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Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":1047.248,"end":1049.693,"text":"在這邊寫什麼今天是經濟紀錄在那個對面那邊"},{"start":2964.605,"end":2990.278,"text":"報告委員會出席委員已足法定人數現在開會介紹在場委員現在有賴會員委員張其凱委員林月琴委員徐宇貞委員"},{"start":2994.824,"end":3005.286,"text":"好 現在介紹列席官員本院周萬來秘書長張玉榮副秘書長孔炳傑秘書處國際事務處林承熙處長議事處高百祥處長想說怎麼沒看到你"},{"start":3022.659,"end":3043.312,"text":"公報處 蘇顯興處長總務處 廖炯志處長法治局 郭明正局長預算中心 陳玉清主任國會圖書館 梁文華館長"},{"start":3049.4,"end":3077.368,"text":"中南部中心 邱俊榮主任義政博物館 徐仙青館長人事處 黃瑞月處長主計處 許進江處長現在介紹出席委員我們葛如君委員"},{"start":3084.878,"end":3108.142,"text":"好 現在宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第130屆經費集合委員會第六次會議議事錄時間114年12月19日星期五中午12時10分至12時54分地點本院群閑樓101會議室出席委員陳培鈺委員等8人請教委員謝一鳳委員列席人員周祕書長萬來等15人主席張祺凱委員紀錄黃秋艷"},{"start":3112.463,"end":3131.397,"text":"一 報告事項 一 宣讀上次會議議事錄 決定議事錄確定二 本院一百一四年度預算執行情形報告截至一百一四年十一月止 決定准與被查二 臨時動議 一 陳培宇委員提有關陳玉珍委員提出立法院組織法第32條 第33條 第35條條文修正草案"},{"start":3134.979,"end":3162.174,"text":"請法治局作出相關配套研究以免因稅捐及勞健保歸戶等問題陷委員於不義決議請人事處及法治局列入參考二 賴會員委員提有關目前過半住宿委員贊成拆除台北會館房間隔間合併使用事宜請總務處先行針對建築結構進行安全性評估並在確保結構安全無虞之前提下"},{"start":3162.874,"end":3182.207,"text":"為未來住宿委員規劃提供更多樣與舒適的居住選擇決議請總務處嚴處並循本院相關程序辦理後續事宜宣讀完畢好謝謝那現在請問各位委員一輸入有無錯誤"},{"start":3186.291,"end":3192.762,"text":"沒有錯誤那我們就按照議事錄那請主計處許處長許進江處長報告"},{"start":3204.451,"end":3229.004,"text":"主席各位委員大家好以下緊就立法院114年度12月份截至整理期間115年1月7日預算執行情形報告本院為國家最高立法機關為持續推展院務各項經費收支均依實際需要按相關規定核實辦理以有效支援委員議案審查工作"},{"start":3229.824,"end":3243.221,"text":"有關一百一十四年度十二月份節制整理期間一百一十五年一月七日指預算執行情形請詳附表一概況表附表二明細表緊究稅務類經費類項目重點內容說明如後"},{"start":3247.326,"end":3274.477,"text":"1 税入类114年度税入类预算共编列1044万9千元截至整理期间115年1月7日止累计实收数1186万6千元包括罚款及赔偿收入129万1千元财产收入894万3千元及其他收入163万2千元2 经费类"},{"start":3275.778,"end":3280.362,"text":"114年度經費累計區分一般行政委員問政業務等9個業務計畫共編列預算37億2436萬2000元含追加預算截至整理期間115年1月7日至"},{"start":3291.291,"end":3317.15,"text":"累計實質數33億1829萬5000元執行率89.17%主要區分下列三大項目一委員問政專項經費本項目包括委員稅費及公費公費助理國會交流事務委員會館問政相關業務及黨團補助等六個工作計畫項目共編列委員問政及選民服務等相關經費14億9604萬元"},{"start":3320.652,"end":3335.11,"text":"截至整理期间115年1月7日之累计实质数14亿2460万6千元执行率95.23%主要包括委员税工费及选民服务费"},{"start":3335.831,"end":3350.297,"text":"公費助理酬金及加班費等人事費12億3423萬4千元委員研究室住宿會館水電通訊費團體保險辦公室務費交通費及國會交流等業務費1億7682萬2千元黨團補助費1355萬元"},{"start":3357.02,"end":3374.341,"text":"二 意识行政支援经费 本项目包括一般行政 意识业务 立法咨询业务 国会图书业务 公报业务及地域背景等六个工作计划项目 公编列 意识行政支援及职工人员维持等相关经费"},{"start":3375.121,"end":3399.847,"text":"20亿2712万4千元节制整理期间115年1月7日止累计实质数17亿9763万3千元执行率88.81%主要包括职工信奉保险及退休赎金等人事费12亿8187万7千元院区水电通讯费资讯服务费"},{"start":3400.487,"end":3403.469,"text":"辦公房設及公務車輛養護、國會頻道委託轉播等業務費4億7,834萬9千元圖書資料庫購置等設備費3,554萬元退休職工三節慰問金及年節特別照護金等獎補助費186萬7千元"},{"start":3421.774,"end":3449.054,"text":"3.一般建築及设备经费本项目包括营建工程、交通及运输设备及其他设备等三个工作计划项目共编列2亿119万8千元包括本院委员住宿会馆整修周边环境空间安全优化委员公用车辆汰换各项资讯应用系统开发及软硬体设备购置汰换数位影音储存资料库及数位印刷机等案"},{"start":3449.815,"end":3467.432,"text":"截至整理期间115年1月7日之累计市值数96056000元执行率47.74%主要系立法院委员住宿会馆整修工程案第一期当会馆前以陆续办理验收"},{"start":3468.032,"end":3485.007,"text":"尚需配合委員實際入住需求改善將持續督請廠商以對委員影響最少的方式辦理 必立後續付款令立法院周邊環境空間安全優化工程歷經三次招標 無廠商投標 致影響預算執行進度"},{"start":3488.226,"end":3507.942,"text":"3.以上系本院114年度12月份截至整理期间115年1月7日止至预算执行情形均依业务实际需要及规定程序本准结原则核实检讨办理整体预算执行上称正常仅就重点内容扼要报告敬请指教谢谢"},{"start":3512.383,"end":3532.002,"text":"好大家對於我們許進江主計處的處長報告的有沒有意見那委員沒有意見的話那我們就備查請問有沒有臨時動議"},{"start":3536.204,"end":3548.304,"text":"我現在先介紹到場的委員補充介紹一下陳培淤委員 郭育晴委員好 那臨時動議請陳培淤委員"},{"start":3574.172,"end":3591.139,"text":"對 我就說去年有尾牙但是他們可能覺得那個不算尾牙 算同樂會anyway我不知道 因為我沒有參加過那是因為有立法院的工作人員在反映這樣那我想說我們身為經費集合委員會的委員幫他們提議一下拜託秘書長跟院長幫忙辦同仁很有感的尾牙anyway我也不知道謝謝"},{"start":3596.801,"end":3605.496,"text":"主席我來加碼一下那個要跟秘書長報告去年我有去參加那個實在不像尾牙比較像同樂會"},{"start":3609.708,"end":3632.534,"text":"所以一併嘛 在以後 就從今年開始嘛從今年開始是不是會更好一點好我先講 那請孔署長細節上再說明其實韓院長來以後 技工工友以前往常是沒有的全部都沒有 就是一個餐敘"},{"start":3635.386,"end":3650.68,"text":"韓院長來他對這個比較基層的員工他很在意所以這一個尾牙的活動是等於全院的職工所以我覺得去年的反應反而是我所聽的並不是很壞"},{"start":3651.981,"end":3668.139,"text":"而且很多的尤其技工工友啊對院長是比較非常等於非常感激啦所以我不知道陳委員所提的是哪些職工我不太了解但今年的這一個處理方式啊"},{"start":3668.519,"end":3684.213,"text":"因為我想孔署長細節性他比較清楚我請他跟委員報告一下大概今年的情況大概也是一樣一般大概有七八百個人有參加這個活動"},{"start":3685.354,"end":3702.726,"text":"包括那個順便的銅鑼其實院長把他的特別會拿出來發給這些員工的拿到獎那個得獎的人院長也用他自己的特別會拿出來給他們其實我是覺得大概以整體的院的"},{"start":3704.186,"end":3731.997,"text":"團隊來看應該並不是大概可能跟成為環境的員工我是不知道他是從哪個角度在看因為我在立安以前都是在餐廳然後做一個大概都職員那職員以後大概餐敘完就結束了以前是這樣的活動但是這一屆是有點改變有點改變這一個主政是在秘書處"},{"start":3733.377,"end":3753.918,"text":"是不是我可不可以请秘书处总处长再细节说明谢谢我们秘书长的说明因为过去之前上一届没办这一届开始办如果说有办得不好的地方委员所提出我们就请秘书处再做进一步的说明以及改进"},{"start":3765.763,"end":3785.393,"text":"主席 各位委員 秘書處報告有關去年尾牙的經驗我們今年也有特別來做進一步的改善的規劃所以今年我們原則上會規劃在2月初的時候在餐廳來舉辦委員的建議我們會盡量把尾牙辦得更加的有感 謝謝"},{"start":3786.741,"end":3807.177,"text":"好 謝謝那請郭玉琴委員做發言我幫公務車司機他們曾經跟我反映過的我來問一下就是說他們現在在講說有一些車子他們會汰換汰換完之後其實還包含就是洗車的部分現在好像也變得不一樣就是跟過去是不一樣的"},{"start":3808.017,"end":3826.754,"text":"我是覺得是不是可以比方說我們可以跟建國北路橋下建國南路橋下就是像是陽光洗車中心是不是可以跟他們用類似由立法院去跟他們對談然後我們用洗車券的方式就是讓"},{"start":3827.955,"end":3844.656,"text":"司機他們自己覺得我車子真的需要去清理而不是說現在變成另外一種方式反而會造成來幫忙他們就是清潔的那個人員他們是我聽說啦就是他們有時候車子排隊好不容易排到他結果後來那個洗車的人員就說他要回家了他有事要回家"},{"start":3847.259,"end":3862.217,"text":"其實這個他們也會希望能夠維持公務車的乾淨是因為為了要再委員但是如果說他們有這樣的困擾是不是可以由我們立法院這邊我們如果擔心說他們的這個洗車的費用"},{"start":3863.317,"end":3888.206,"text":"會衍生出費用的問題那是由我們立法院這邊如果直接去跟這個洗車中心去談我們是用集體買券分給每一個就是我們公務車的司機那每一個月的多少幾張配額那讓他們決定說我的車子髒了我自己去洗這樣就可以了我覺得這反而是一種方便啦就給他們方便啦對我們來講其實也是我覺得也是很好的一種方式啦以上"},{"start":3889.83,"end":3902.629,"text":"好謝謝郭玉琴委員的建議那我們現在請我們總務處的廖總志處長來做說明不好意思補充介紹一下林倩琦委員"},{"start":3905.063,"end":3930.54,"text":"好謝謝委員的指教那也關心我們的公務車同仁的心聲那這個案子也是在之前的經費集合委員會有做這樣的提示那我們在前一陣子辦了一個整體的招標那幫大家在洗車打蠟的費用整體有壓低那不過在試運轉的這兩個月就是說大概可能有這種塞車的情況那也謝謝委員的提醒因為這個標案我們才剛辦完"},{"start":3931.36,"end":3957.479,"text":"那我們再檢討看怎麼來做調整包含說您所提的遷移我們都想辦法把它納入謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝好 那我們是不是就按照廖處長說明讓他先把這個就是說新試行的計畫先進行過一段期間後續再做相關的檢討好不好好 沒問題 謝謝好 謝謝那請問還有沒有其他的臨時動議呢"},{"start":3962.691,"end":3967.346,"text":"好 那沒有臨時動議我們今天就到此為止 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Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":2296.035,"end":2303.478,"text":"好 國民黨團的人到沒有要等國民黨團的人到沒有啦 國民黨團還沒到訪問一下 確確確確確確確確確確確確確確確確確確確確確"},{"start":2330.323,"end":2355.268,"text":"對啦 你要去買三分器沒有啦 人家不來要怎麼開始因為你不是要跟社家屬你去調他沒把你放下去看怎麼處理看怎麼處理因為請委員你們在委員會的時候跟他承諾沒有放進去"},{"start":2377.725,"end":2379.905,"text":"寫商前先寫商這邊我都幫你貼起來了"},{"start":3115.939,"end":3143.263,"text":"好好我們要開始了好協商會議開始現在進行協商額頭法請大家看協商通知的這個協商主題那另外有關這個徐曉新委員板將於今天進入二讀故一起加入這個協商那現在介紹在場的委員第一位是林月琴林委員再來是林淑恩林委員"},{"start":3145.16,"end":3158.475,"text":"王振旭 王委員陳昭芝 陳委員介紹在場的官員 我們衛務部 呂健德次長社交署 周道軍署長還有法規會參事專門委員 許子惠"},{"start":3161.274,"end":3187.108,"text":"好 謝謝內政部副政司檢任視察蘇志門謝謝警政署科長鄭世哲好 謝謝還有專員王育俊王育俊有簽名 人不在了馬上通緝 OK消防署專門委員簡旭淳"},{"start":3188.356,"end":3200.944,"text":"好 謝謝還有國土管理署檢任政工程師盧昭鴻 謝謝我們法務部參事汪洋君好 謝謝教育部國監署副組長郭志銀 謝謝勞動部勞動福祉退休師專務委李娟鳳謝謝"},{"start":3209.862,"end":3217.787,"text":"勞動條件及就業評審師科長楊怡婷謝謝勞動關係師專門委員許瓊月謝謝經濟部人事處專委張雅惠謝謝財政部國有財政署組長吳橋梅謝謝護稅署科長蔡旭毅謝謝國庫署科長洪培明謝謝經管會保險局科長陳佳"},{"start":3243.124,"end":3253.387,"text":"陳嘉禾是不是 謝謝然後原住民委員會社會福利署副處長洪寧 謝謝行政院人事行政總署專門委員謝艾倫 謝謝還有個人資料保護委員會籌備處科長曾傑好 謝謝"},{"start":3262.595,"end":3284.445,"text":"剛剛那個通緝 麻煩通緝一下好 謝謝那本案提報院會併案審查報告保留條文既有22條 另有附帶決議保留案8案然後由於本案具專業性 希望今日各保留條文盡量寫商通過 那也請各位委員中考量 衛福部也隨時溝通"},{"start":3285.444,"end":3301.333,"text":"那今天進行的方式 能請衛護部先做說明 再請各位委員提出意見那最後會眾協商結論 再請各黨團來簽名衛護部提出之相關建議條文 已經在各位委員的座上 請大家參閱好"},{"start":3304.079,"end":3332.621,"text":"現在我們就請衛務部先做說明好 請署長召委及各位委員大家早安今天是第三條 對不起 第三條我們說第三條的部分為了便於等一下在協商的過程委員可以參閱那我們大概有準備幾份基本資料那第一個是所有要保留的條文跟相關的事項我們先有準備一個基本的目錄那委員這邊應該都有提供各位委員可以參閱"},{"start":3333.522,"end":3352.547,"text":"那接下來就是這個我們在提供給委員資料這個彙整的表格裡面的話我們大概都基本上每一個條文都準備建議的建議的文字好那我們建議是不是等一下就可能我們會就建議欄的這個文字來跟委員做一個報告好那以下就就草案第三條的部分做一個說明"},{"start":3353.627,"end":3377.827,"text":"那草案第三條的部分先前在保留的過程主要的希望要需要處理的部分是第一個是有關定點零拖的部分要怎麼樣去做後續的這個如果要去把它納到這個法案裡面來處理的時候那在定義的部分需要對定點零拖加個定義所以我們增加增列在第六款裡面那另外"},{"start":3380.199,"end":3409.247,"text":"搭配後面草案有關照顧爭議的部分的條文我們也甄列了在第20款對照顧爭議的部分我們甄列了一個定義的文字那我們大概就這個部分做了兩個文字的處理那簡單宣讀定點零拖的部分我們文字定義為指直轄市縣市主管機關於符合托育環境安全之指定處所自行或委託非營利性執法人機構或團體提供非固定時段之托育服務"},{"start":3410.007,"end":3427.354,"text":"那第20款照顧爭議的部分我們定義是指兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人認為照顧情形不符其待應由托育人員負責所生之爭議以上好來請立書委員"},{"start":3430.663,"end":3456.616,"text":"我想基本上大概都可以接受不過因為你們新增這個照顧爭議裡面所謂的照顧情形不符期待照顧情形不符期待好像太過廣泛不夠明確所以我們想說是不是能夠具體的講說應該是托育品質不符期待托育品質不符期待"},{"start":3460.836,"end":3479.131,"text":"行政長官表示意見我們當初用照顧情形不符而期待其實是有一些家長在反映的時候這個因為這個樣態真的非常的多那也有一些其實不一定完全涉及到品質例如說可能跟這個小朋友中間可能會吵架"},{"start":3479.811,"end":3498.186,"text":"那或者是其他這個玩具有掉了的這種情形這個跟照顧的品質有的時候關聯看起來會比較弱一點點那我們覺得即使是這一類的狀況如果家長有反應的話還是最好能夠有一個機會做一個處理所以我們確實是把文字稍微放得寬一點"},{"start":3498.886,"end":3515.953,"text":"那如果是這樣如果要當然如果要用這個照顧品質不符期待的話那可能會變成是這個會不會在實務執行面的時候因為縣市在談的時候可能他跟品質沒有直接關聯的時候會不會讓這個家長說那可能就鼓勵"},{"start":3516.753,"end":3540.404,"text":"就縣市就是說那不然就家長跟托育的單位自己來做一些協調跟處理我們是希望說讓縣市可以有比較深的或者比較廣的參與所以我們把定義文字稍微放大一點大概出發點是這樣是一個這樣的想法那當然如果說最後討論要用品質的話我們是可以接受請說因為整部法在討論這個這個"},{"start":3548.569,"end":3569.916,"text":"這個托育托育所以所以我們在講說你把照顧情形四個字雖然範圍放廣了但是基本上我們還是要限縮在是不是跟托育有關的托育品質那其他的爭議就用一般其實一般的架構一般法律有一些架構等等"},{"start":3572.186,"end":3601.278,"text":"這裡是規範保姆 業者 機構他的托育所以我們應該是期待他在有托育品質不符期待的時候所衍生的這一些爭議托育人員負責所生的這個爭議等於是保姆要負責的小朋友吵架是保姆要負責的裡面當然是協調過程那玩具掉了"},{"start":3601.991,"end":3614.385,"text":"他要負責什麼也是跟托育品質有關的我們才比較受理嘛否則跟托育品質無關的我們會受理嗎"},{"start":3619.431,"end":3646.207,"text":"我們初步的想法是說就讓縣市在受理端的時候就不需要再去做一個說去篩選跟品質有沒有相關就是能夠開 因為這個後面在照顧爭議的時候 主要是縣市政府來幫忙做一個調處的動作讓縣市的門可以開大一點 能夠多來幫忙去處理這一類的狀況當然我們還是強調就是最後如果是用品質的話 我們沒有意見"},{"start":3647.168,"end":3672.567,"text":"对因为你这个你讲的把门开很多可是其实他们的劳动条件都不是很好啦他们劳动条件流动率劳动条件不好流动率很高那你什么事情都要说要有争议然后就可以这个调除或者是就要干嘛其实可能会增加更多的门开太多的话可能会增加更多的负担呢"},{"start":3673.536,"end":3700.224,"text":"所以我們是不是應該限縮在說也不是限縮啦因為照顧爭議這四個這是照顧情形不符期待這四個字太廣泛門也開到無限的大了所以跟托育服務相關的應該限縮在跟托育服務相關的那托育服務相關的我們想一想是不是就是托育品質"},{"start":3702.662,"end":3731.606,"text":"其实托育品质也包含很多你说小朋友吵架了老师的调解的方式并没有那么好在这种状况里面其实也是托育品质也可以涵盖进来但他玩具掉了找不到了你说要叫老师去给他要调除这个跟托育品质有关吗吵架我觉得会但玩具掉了在哪里掉不知道这个"},{"start":3735.311,"end":3764.069,"text":"是不是要想一下啦我是覺得好像也不算細說啦但是就門你照顧情形照顧情形不符合期待就太抽象了抽象了還是要具體一點應該都可以啦我覺得這個我們尊重我們配合對不對都可以啦好啦那我們就這個情形改為品質啦好不好各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有好那請衛福部宣讀"},{"start":3766.122,"end":3787.718,"text":"第20款那重新宣讀第20款的文字照顧爭議指兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人認為照顧品質不符其待應由托育相關人員負責所生之爭議是不是托育品質托育品質 對不起"},{"start":3789.488,"end":3811.354,"text":"我重新再念一次照顧爭議指兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人認為托育品質不符其待應由托育相關人員負責所生之爭議以上好各位有沒有其他意見沒有那我們就修正通過那請衛福部列印出確定版再給各位做檢視謝謝那我們繼續來處理"},{"start":3816.09,"end":3843.985,"text":"是第6條那第6條的部分這個部分先前大部分的文字都已經討論過有一個確認那其中大概在在第6條的部分有一個主要要處理的是當時委員的版本裡面有一個是希望對於應該是月刑委員的條的版本裡面有一個"},{"start":3845.057,"end":3847.489,"text":"他希望增訂一個條文就是直轄市"},{"start":3849.024,"end":3877.299,"text":"縣市主管機關辦理定點零拖服務他的場地跟環境的要求那因為我們是覺得這一個條文主要是規定指的是縣市主管機關而不是針對定點零拖的所以我們是建議這個部分文字可以拆出來會放到另外一個條次序那但是文字的部分我們是可以接受我們是可以配合月行委員的條文版本我們文字稍微做一點小的文字整理"},{"start":3877.979,"end":3903.735,"text":"那這個調適我們會建議會是擺在目前照院版的調適安排的話會擺在第18條之後那針對定點零託部分這個調適我們會去到最後再順文字內容是直轄市縣市主管機關辦理定點零食托育服務其場地應符合居家托育環境安全規定且人員應具居家托育人員資格"},{"start":3904.896,"end":3931.851,"text":"前項定點臨時托育服務之監督檢查與輔導及其他應遵循事項之辦法由中央主管機關定職 以上好來有沒有委員要表示意見沒有意見沒有意見好那我們第6條就修正通過那請衛部一樣列出確定版再給提供給各位委員做檢視那繼續審查第"},{"start":3936.968,"end":3961.196,"text":"16條請行政機關說明跟委員報告那個主要的爭議在第6這個新增的條文的部分那第6條本文的部分那文字當時在審查完之後有幾個地方的文字也需要再做一個確認那我們把這個跟行政院版不同的地方的文字我們一併再宣讀一次"},{"start":3962.051,"end":3985.269,"text":"第一個直轄市縣市主管機關掌理下列事項第一款的部分會甄列推廣就是直轄市縣市托育服務政策與方案之規劃訂定推廣宣導研究及執行第二款第三款維持行政院版的條文第四款文字修正為直轄市縣市居家托育服務中心之輔導監督及檢查"},{"start":3988.376,"end":4017.254,"text":"那第五款第六款第七款的文字與行政院版的草案相同第八款第六條縣市政府的職責因為當時委員版對於縣市政府應該做的工作版本中間有一些不一樣的這個原來在研擬的時候有不一樣的設計所以我們把綜合的委員版的條文在主要是增訂在第四款然後另外增訂第八款"},{"start":4018.401,"end":4046.534,"text":"協助托育人員組織及家長組織之成立然後增訂第九款違反本法因處罰還程度裁量基準之訂定所以會多增加 一共會有兩款會增加有兩款會修正文字 以上好請各位表示意見沒有 沒有意見"},{"start":4049.61,"end":4073.943,"text":"有麥克風因為之前在第一輪討論的時候 針對於我原本放在第5條的第8款所以我不知道是不是應該在這提出來還是要到17條那邊 為什麼因為本來我在第5條第8款有提出來針對家外安置放置在保母家的這一塊"},{"start":4074.583,"end":4094.38,"text":"要有一些要件那時候是說他們要另立一條然後放在第10院版的17條之後可是到第二輪的時候也沒放所以第二輪都已經討論完了那我的這一條是沒列進去所以要在這時候去討論還是等下我們在17條之後真的是按照當初"},{"start":4097.856,"end":4107.594,"text":"市大署這邊再提出來的東西 然後跟我的診病去討論 我原來提的是在第5條的第8款跟第2項以上"},{"start":4110.006,"end":4130.167,"text":"剛剛林委員應該有跟署長溝通你們的建議怎樣是要現在還是要我們確實從行政運作的角度因為針對如果用居家托育人員來做安置的時候行政管理上面通常我們目前的行政管理結構它會統一從安置的這塊做保管"},{"start":4131.048,"end":4151.147,"text":"條文的設計我們確實是比較建議有沒有機會未來放到兒少法的修正版本裡面去那我們本來會建議是不是有機會可以用一個附帶決議的方式就是要求把這樣的文字未來在修兒少法的時候納進去"},{"start":4153.189,"end":4176.868,"text":"不過剛才跟月行委員報告過月行委員還是覺得說還是在這邊訂進來那我們也可以接受只是調次的部分我們是建議也是一樣可能要擺在居家托育那一張的最後要再增列一條調次需要可能調次到時候可能最後順下來需要再做安排文字的部分我們是可以依照先前我們會建議的先前有討論過一個文字"},{"start":4181.031,"end":4200.916,"text":"這個文字會分成兩項我簡單的宣讀居家托育人員經直轄市縣市主管機關依兒童及少年福利與權益保障法規定辦理照顧家外安置兒童者應先接受一定時數之教育訓練"},{"start":4202.15,"end":4228.225,"text":"好 第二項直轄市縣市主管機關於安置前應評估居家托育人員之適任性並建立於安置期間之仿試機制不是 算了 你是要放在另外一個章節嘛對不對 要放到第二章 第二章嘛 居家托育那一章我現在確定要放這邊 我們就先來討論 如果是要放後邊我們等後邊討論 對啦 我只是想確定程序 她剛剛一直在宣讀我就覺得怪怪的"},{"start":4229.215,"end":4246.601,"text":"那我們就後邊再 對對對好那我們對我們就回到第6條那各位委員有沒有其他意見剛剛是沒有意見啦好那沒有意見我們就修正通過請衛福部印出確定版之後再給這個委員做檢視好謝謝"},{"start":4249.741,"end":4274.35,"text":"主席 剛剛講確定版的話 第6條確定 可是剛剛署長又有念另外一個有沒有 那個也是放在後邊條子嗎就是這個黃色的這一塊 就是針對於零拖的一些要求因為我現在都很怕漏掉的好第6條就照這樣宣讀 修正通過了我們繼續審查第16條"},{"start":4281.407,"end":4295.304,"text":"來 請說抱歉 第十一條本來是說新增第二項我們都沒有意見但是有一個就是說一二三四 第四項"},{"start":4296.772,"end":4323.673,"text":"地方主管機關及居家托育服務中心對於居家托育人員的監督及檢查任何人不得規避妨礙或拒絕那其實我們想加一個就是說檢查時不得藉故藏匿兒童因為我們擔心檢查的時候有可能會藏匿兒童藉故"},{"start":4326.653,"end":4355.179,"text":"那你看不到11抱歉11條對沒錯對因為你們的版本是居家托育人員不得沒有沒有我們不希望這個主持拿掉因為不是特定的托育人員有可能會藏匿而投有可能同住的家人或友人"},{"start":4356.522,"end":4371.941,"text":"所以任何人都不可以藉故藏匿兒童所以居家托育人員這個主詞應該拿掉檢查時不得藉故藏匿兒童這樣子的涵蓋範圍比較寬廣"},{"start":4374.791,"end":4391.84,"text":"他沒有那個保姆沒有藏匿啊是他的家人或是他的朋友藏匿的那他的朋友跟家人怎麼管所以應該是不要限縮在保姆就是居家托育人員這幾個字拿掉就可以了11條第4款"},{"start":4409.542,"end":4423.009,"text":"就是納管任何人加進來 藏匿的都要納管針對這個部分"},{"start":4426.735,"end":4445.965,"text":"我們是可以如果要把我們原來是想說增列居家托育人員不得去增加這樣的這個把這個文字放進去其實是搭配罰則的條文因為原來處罰到他的構成要件就是居家居家托育人員不可以去不可以去藉口藏匿兒童"},{"start":4446.505,"end":4474.065,"text":"那如果要放大到任何人都不可以去妨礙規避的話我想我們也可以 我們可以配合就沒有問題那只是等下後面相關的調遲法則要一邊調整法則我們等下到相關調遲的時候我們配合再來做整個文字的時候要記住喔 就是你39年對不起喔 對不起我請官員不要在這邊粗粗碌碌好不好不好意思啦 因為外面在辦活動委員在跟行政單位在大家討論事情我不曉得官員為什麼要進行粗粗"},{"start":4475.339,"end":4502.183,"text":"你如果說委內因為要到院會進出會有道理那我們官員為什麼要叫進進出出因為外面有在辦活動如果沒有我不會講對啦 因為聲音已經有點干擾了而且已經太密集了好 那就是說我們希望每個人都不能夠藉故藏匿兒童不是限縮在保母那後面的法則要一併調整沒有錯好 OK"},{"start":4505.462,"end":4524.359,"text":"這個部分我們會配合整理預計會擺在66條的後面他需要單獨整列好那但是11條這邊文字現在把居家托育人員刪除我們同意我們可以配合但是11條沒有在保留條裡面所以是不是要再請"},{"start":4526.836,"end":4547.591,"text":"因為要提出一個修正動應該是不用因為現在是黨團協商了嘛那黨團協商是本來每一條都可以討論的也都可以修正所以我才說是不是要再提一個修正動是這樣不用直接就可以改了因為是黨團協商總部法律都可以所以十一條要再練一下"},{"start":4552.011,"end":4575.701,"text":"不用了應該現在就可以改了好那我把第11條的第4項重新宣讀如下直轄市縣市主管機關及居家托育服務中心對於居家托育人員之監督及檢查任何人不得規避妨礙或拒絕檢查時不得藉故藏匿兒童"},{"start":4579.505,"end":4586.071,"text":"好 11條我們就這樣修正通過了 一樣請衛部印出確定版 再給委員做檢視那我們一樣處理第16條"},{"start":4598.06,"end":4625.961,"text":"另外跟主席報告這個11條是先前有通過不過後來在後面通過罰則第63條的時候有通過一個文字上面有增加有通過一個罰則但是我們在11條這邊可能文字需要配合做一個處理需要增加第二項的文字才會比較周延我們先讀一下我們預計增列在11條第二項的文字"},{"start":4626.741,"end":4652.771,"text":"居家托育人員提供居家托育服務期間有暫停收托服務之需要應向主管機關申請暫停收托服務因為後面在罰則有一個暫停收托服務的罰則那條已經通過了那這個跟委員討論過說這個這樣的行為是需要處罰所以前端需要補一個補一項的文字各位有沒有意見那就請刑事機關"},{"start":4653.451,"end":4682.427,"text":"還是把這個修正後的版本再提出來給委員做確定做做檢視好繼續處理第16條來請說明第16條的部分就是有關是有關這個在居家托育人員在收托的時候要完成相關的投保的保險以及在發生保險事故的時候要辦理理賠那這個部分的話"},{"start":4685.987,"end":4711.128,"text":"那我們有一個建議這個當時在討論的時候對於理賠的部分居家托育服務中心的角色我們建議16條的文字整體修正如下第16條居家托育人員應於收托兒童當日前完成投保專業責任保險前項保險期間發生保險事故時居家托育服務中心應主動協助辦理理賠事宜"},{"start":4715.356,"end":4733.605,"text":"那先前處分委員這邊是對於說這個因為有一些居托人員在投保的時候不一定是透過居托中心去投保那所以第二項如果說要協助辦理理賠用因會不會對於居托中心責任比較重那我們是覺得建議是說這個"},{"start":4735.766,"end":4745.936,"text":"因為其實這一項對於拘托中心是沒有罰則只是希望拘托中心盡量來做一個幫忙的動作那是不是可以維持一個因大概是這樣好 來"},{"start":4747.691,"end":4771.821,"text":"好我補充一下因為現在94%的狀態就是中心讓保姆並列要保人那由中心協助保姆投保應主動協助這樣課則是合理的因為保姆跟中心都是要保人嘛但我們講是沒有還有6%是沒有透過中心投保的"},{"start":4772.481,"end":4801.537,"text":"那他要如何協助理賠那或者是說應主動協助辦理理賠事情那要到什麼程度 要協助什麼程度就是協助辦理理賠事宜的程度要到哪裡他沒有透過中心 其實只有保姆自行去投保"},{"start":4803.993,"end":4821.807,"text":"那個跟委員報告如果是這樣的話我們建議是不是我們在說明欄的部分我們把這個居托中心的角色做一個比較明確的釐清我們也許可以這樣子去寫就是專業責任保險是透過居家托育服務中心來投保的話"},{"start":4823.248,"end":4851.057,"text":"那居家托育服務中心就需當然應該要去協助做相關的理賠那如果是由居家托育人員就是保姆自行投保的話那居家托育服務中心接獲這個通報收托兒童有發生保險事故那就可以跟居家托育人員去聯繫了解他的保險理賠辦理的處理的情形那這樣的話就把他的角色做一個比較明確的敘述好 OK那你在立法說明欄講清楚就是有區分嘛 好"},{"start":4853.612,"end":4865.194,"text":"好 可以喔 一樣就修正通過了也請衛務部印出確定版本給各位來做檢視繼續來處理第林署務委員的第22條林署務委員的"},{"start":4883.423,"end":4886.718,"text":"你們是隨家顧,二則意義"},{"start":4891.088,"end":4917.91,"text":"在大本是在第61啊就在院版16條下面那這個部分的話我們對於這個署分委員的這個條文的文字那基本上方向我們接受那只是在處理的部分我們大概文字稍微做一點點整理那我宣讀如下"},{"start":4918.991,"end":4933.43,"text":"直轄市縣市主管機關應該應訂定居家托育服務緊急傷病或事故傷害之救護原則第二項 兒童發生緊急傷病或事故傷害之處理"},{"start":4937.045,"end":4961.068,"text":"居家托育人員應依前項原則執行施救步驟護送就醫地點呼叫緊急救護專線支援之事項並與法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人未到達前採取必要之處置第三項居家托育服務中心應輔導居家托育人員落實第一項原則以上"},{"start":4965.147,"end":4978.439,"text":"可以 妹妹第16條應該印那個立法說明欄好吧 可以啦 立法說明欄它沒有印好 但是這一條你沒有放在哪邊因為它是 這是另外的一個單獨22條"},{"start":4983.316,"end":4995.524,"text":"好 調適就授權給委員去做調整了原則上就照現在這個排下來我們就擺在16個時期之間好啦 OK那就修正通過也請衛福部印出這個確定的版給委員做檢視那繼續討論處理第30條中間這個在討論30條之前剛才有在討論第3條"},{"start":5009.611,"end":5033.008,"text":"对不起第5条和第对那个刚刚你们讲的已经宣读过是不是还需要再宣读做一个确认因为它会摆在目前会预计会摆在第10会摆在第17条18条之前18条之前刚才有宣读那就直接处理了好不好刚刚有宣读看要不要再宣读一次然后连住了"},{"start":5041.562,"end":5058.01,"text":"因為當初你擬的我覺得事實上是不是很清楚我覺得畢竟過去凱恩會發生基本上就是我都認為你有做你認為我有做所以我這次為什麼覺得應該定在這邊既然好不容易要去做我們的託法"},{"start":5058.772,"end":5074.893,"text":"所以我當初在第五條的就是分兩項來寫那當然也是分兩項那我的寫法是依兒童及少年福利與權益保障法第56條第一項各款情形得運用適當的居家"},{"start":5075.493,"end":5096.369,"text":"托育人員照顧家外安置兒童並建立相關評估標準要評估標準跟照顧期間教育訓練訪視等機制然後第二項講的是前項的評估標準照顧期間教育訓練訪視跟其他應遵循四項辦法由中央主管機關定制所以我"},{"start":5097.271,"end":5111.864,"text":"堅持應該是兩項你們這寫了好像都講說要接受一定時數的教育訓練然後呢要安置適當的防治機制可是我們希望要有授權是後邊還要定一個比較細緻的那個一些準則在"},{"start":5114.062,"end":5134.427,"text":"所以跟你們寫法是完全事實上有很大的落差可是你們後來提的附帶決議給我還寫得比當初你們提出來的條文裡面還有講到一些標準在反正你們在這邊的時候反而只是講說要受一些教育訓練然後要有些訪視機制而已反而對於我覺得不夠完整性"},{"start":5137.321,"end":5162.049,"text":"是不是可以看一下我原來提出來的第五條的第一項的第八款跟第三項這個可以回到兒少全法處理嗎一併處理版本來看一下"},{"start":5163.059,"end":5187.721,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在建議的條文文字大體上和委員這邊提到原來第一項的部分基本上是大體上會比較相當那這邊唯一的差別是我們大概是沒有把兒少法的條次列出來那我們最主要的顧慮是因為以我們現在在整理中的兒少法的草案的版本這個未來條式一定會變"},{"start":5189.983,"end":5209.345,"text":"這個大家先跟委員報告一下我們是建議如果要用的話是不是調次可以不用列進來就是直接依照兒童法的規定就可以了那第二項這個委員所提到的評估標準方式這個是不是要去定辦法的部分那我們是會建議是說這個部分是不是"},{"start":5210.006,"end":5237.929,"text":"因為現在是已經在都有要已經是用在凱凱案發生之後我們現在是已經用要點那對於這個包括委員所關心的不管是遴選照顧期間的訪視或者是期前對保姆的評估這些都已經有相關我們定的已經開始在做那這個部分的話我們會建議是說是不是這個部分先可以不用先"},{"start":5239.77,"end":5260.692,"text":"如果是對於細節的部分的話是不是有一個空間我們還是用如果可以的話我們把搭配這個院板這邊行政院這邊建議的這個修正文字然後搭配一個附帶決議那把這個是將來在相關的規定要把細節的部分去把它訂出來是不是有這樣的一個空間以上"},{"start":5261.212,"end":5280.326,"text":"署長你這樣講那我就要來回應111年你們自己就有訂直轄縣市運用拘托人員家外安置的一個原則有人遵循了嗎否則不會112年發生凱凱案有人遵循了嗎110年你沒有訂啊也就是說你要運用"},{"start":5281.485,"end":5308.798,"text":"我們的保姆來作為你的安置的一個處所的時候裡面講得非常清楚明白的是你要找仿式輔導良好的那今天那兩位保姆是仿式輔導良好的從來都沒有收託過小孩的就直接安置了那為什麼可以讓他這樣做然後現在在司法還沒出來的時候我們就看到各方都說你有責任你有責任誰有責任然後一個說"},{"start":5309.96,"end":5326.429,"text":"安置機構有責任安置的縣市有責任一個是講說你收住養有責任一個講說居托中心有責任那到底誰責任反正孩子死了那誰要負責如果沒有人負責的話那孩子是冤死所以我為什麼覺得要做這樣的事情"},{"start":5326.849,"end":5343.215,"text":"因為在上凱凱案之前我就發現說事實上這樣子的安置本來就有問題因為過去不是沒有發生過直轄縣市的確不是收養童安置的時候他們自己安置景安跟一般安置的時候就有好幾起的這樣的案子"},{"start":5344.495,"end":5361.924,"text":"發生死亡案也有發生過啊可是有沒有去處理呢所以我說如果只是原則要點我覺得基本上沒有什麼樣的強制力然後另外一個我覺得今天機構也很容易說我是做收出養的那你的那個居托中心有管好保姆嗎那我就放在保姆家"},{"start":5363.274,"end":5389.087,"text":"那居頭中心覺得你事實上是專業機構你在做收出一樣你應該自己也會去管理你的保姆你要安置在這邊你會管理保姆吧結果通通兩邊都沒有管我按照我的原則我一年四例房就好另外一個是覺得說那我安置在應該是合格保姆都你審核過的合格保姆如果兩方這樣解釋最後犧牲的是孩子的性命所以我為什麼覺得今天到底放進去對"},{"start":5391.67,"end":5399.747,"text":"你們大概影響的是什麼我不知道就是說我知道你們那時候也到我們辦公室溝通要附帶決議我說我沒有辦法接受"},{"start":5400.666,"end":5428.452,"text":"那我覺得兩邊如果都放又有什麼關係呢就是說如果這邊訂如果看兒托法的人知道他在管理這個工作的人他知道他要這樣做如果在我們的兒權法訂的時候如果在處理安置的人他也要知道這個原理原則搞不好在做兒托的時候他不見得去看兒權法那兒權法的時候他在做的時候他有沒有看兒托法不確定所以最後就是兩邊都各自做各自的"},{"start":5429.002,"end":5442.939,"text":"最後真的是這樣是犧牲掉生命所以我會希望這邊還是要放以上如果是要放在這裡的話我們是不是要彰顯說其實保姆"},{"start":5445.768,"end":5470.684,"text":"这些保姆他作为家外安置这样的一个机制要被凸显出来可是这个里面可能会有一个评估上评估整个家庭是不是认适不适合还有房市因为房市机制跟评估机制这种东西评估标准房市其实是不是我们应该要放上去要主张说"},{"start":5471.444,"end":5499.621,"text":"要依儿少权法的规定来办理否则的话你在这里这样写写完以后那到底房市还有这个评估的机制标准那要怎么依循还要另外去定一个规定吗所以要放在这里如果要放进去的话我想应该要比照儿少权法的评估机制去做这个东西要配套进来啦"},{"start":5504.537,"end":5515.586,"text":"因為兒童權法沒有什麼評估機制啊否則我們現在問題會發生就是說居家托育人員的適任性那"},{"start":5516.943,"end":5540.362,"text":"你要評估他的整個家庭因為二次安置跟保母所以我才會說要再而且是特殊處遇的兒的孩子了他不是一般孩子所以我才會說還是要授權中央主管機關定辦法可是要在這邊去講清楚要講到評估標準照顧期間教育訓練方式跟其他應遵循事項要定這樣的辦法"},{"start":5544.392,"end":5572.465,"text":"因為我們這個家外安置基本上我們是支持性的我們是支援性的我們不是主責的我們是去支持支援而已對 可是今天新北就有所謂的護苗計畫大量的 只要事實上是景安一般安置都安置在保母家"},{"start":5573.226,"end":5601.705,"text":"只要六歲以下的都這樣因為基本上安置機構只有約納家園有收比較小的小孩整個新北就只有約納家園其他的沒有人收這麼幼兒要安置的所以幾乎都在保母家所以大部分安置機構都是在安置的是大孩子尤其是少年居多六歲以下幾乎沒有安置在可是六歲以下要安置安在哪裡像新北市就護苗計畫其他縣市我上次就跟"},{"start":5602.566,"end":5609.217,"text":"我想之前社交署我也講過幾乎很多縣市在一般安置跟景安只要六歲以下幾乎以"},{"start":5610.014,"end":5635.884,"text":"以那個保母家為多然後再來這次會發生的慨案就是事實上他事實上收出養在等待出養期間的這個過渡期六歲以下因為六歲以下也是比較容易收出養所以也幾乎大半的比例很高的比例兩個機構嘛因為兒婦聯盟跟立新他們自己不是不是不是機構因為過去有八個收出養機構只有"},{"start":5637.344,"end":5663.314,"text":"六個事實上他事實上是安置機構來做收支要其他兩個都那就只能事實上安置在保母家那既然保母家幾乎都是大家打的算盤都是想說六歲以下真的保母家比較適合可是那要不要特殊他24小時一年365天沒有第三方的監管是有風險的可是現在也沒辦法因為安置機構幾乎都沒有在做六歲以下的"},{"start":5665.259,"end":5686.073,"text":"好那现在有问题就是说基本上这一个支持性的资源那那几乎就是等于寄养家庭的概念了那寄养家庭大家在评估的时候比较严谨他会评估整个家庭但我们现在放在保姆家他"},{"start":5687.074,"end":5707.739,"text":"全家人沒有一併放進來被評估啊所以我們是不是說應該要如果是這種狀況的話應該要比照寄養家庭一樣去評估和仿視啦你懂我的意思嗎要表決了要表決我們去表一下"},{"start":5710.075,"end":5734.681,"text":"要表決委員離場之前我們先報告簡單報告一下好 我們要去表決一下我們原則上接受我們在這段時間我們趕快把條文先擬出來等一下委員回來我們可以給委員來做一個討論先休息一下 不好意思"},{"start":7596.547,"end":7607.355,"text":"多頂禮加一粒 你就加補兩粒不可以吃一粒 怕弄到腦袋上去氣氣酷酷 氣氣酷酷說話比較文雅好 我們繼續協商 謝謝"},{"start":7613.075,"end":7632.754,"text":"主席非常感谢岳勤文对于我们第五条的一个建议我先这么说因为一个是我们现在目前一个是托育的逻辑那我知道岳勤文非常关心的是安置的问题但是为了要解决安置然后现在"},{"start":7634.958,"end":7656.712,"text":"來放到這邊是不是有我說兩個邏輯可能還是不太一樣啦那我跟委員報告現在就是說能不能就是我們現在目前我們現在兒托法這個部分處理完之後我跟委員保證現在接下來我們接下來就是兒照選法那我們現在是不是可以還是"},{"start":7657.97,"end":7664.914,"text":"你這個部分我一定保證我在未來耳哨全法去處理因為我們這個會期處理完之後接下來我要啟動的就是耳哨全法所以你這個我一定會把它放進來因為"},{"start":7676.616,"end":7695.004,"text":"因為真的是而且我跟委員報告以前我在台中我做的小學校長你知道有時候在地方政府這邊托育的部分跟安置的部分有時候他們有時候是分有時候是在一個同一個課有時候是有在不同嘛那你現在就是說為了要解決安置的問題那現在"},{"start":7698.685,"end":7718.122,"text":"现在又把它放到托育这边来会不会我认为整个可能在处理上它会不会还是会有一些实际上的一些问题肯请委员是不是咱想想看我就很好奇如果这样那为什么以前"},{"start":7720.147,"end":7744.608,"text":"這麼多年來安置都安置在保母家這個不是單一我說過去你們也坐任各地方政府這樣做啊一直以來那你們安置到底做了什麼事情沒有啊我先講比較現實的一個問題就是說你看如果當時安置真的有做好明明知道今天全台灣"},{"start":7745.879,"end":7774.109,"text":"手指頭都可以數得出來六歲以下的安置沒有在安置機構因為安置機構你們自己也知道安置機構幾乎少到可憐的在安置別家六歲以下小孩那你們都一直知道這常態怎麼會是今天要來談這個東西的時候你跟我講說那我們可是這你安置在保母家已經是常態了那過去的確兒少權法沒有兒托法的時候兒少權法只有"},{"start":7775.49,"end":7802.944,"text":"26條跟26條之一在規範保姆要授權執法那保姆的強度不強那保姆現在一直在保姆還是要納管的狀態裡邊我們現在把它弄成兒托法的時候那難道你今天大量用它這邊不要有任何規範嗎當然需要 保護主席那個也跟委員委員你了解我們的CRC的精神其實基本上還是兒童最佳利益所以我們現在如果萬一發生安置的話我們的順序一定都是"},{"start":7803.524,"end":7829.505,"text":"这一个受暴的这一个小朋友他的这一个亲属嘛然后接下来才是技嘉然后再团家然后最后真的没办法交到机构那我们现在恐怕也会担心就是说你现在目前把这边这样设下去之后老实说会有一个反而会有一个吸引效果吸引你现在我们现在是希望能够尽量还是以还是以这一个到亲属这边结果他现在就送到"},{"start":7830.989,"end":7833.384,"text":"會送到安置的那個家庭去"},{"start":7834.864,"end":7864.224,"text":"會不會會不會有這個問題所以次長因為我們孩子越來越少安置同事越來越成長的那個狀態所以你自己你們自己真的有清楚的去確定各地方政府怎麼對景安跟一般安置安置尤其是六歲以下所以上次也要你們調查始終我也是沒有拿到數據說到底你們六歲以下小的安置的狀態個性是到底安置在保母家的狀態又是什麼我不是只有要覺得要處理事實上是收出養"},{"start":7865.685,"end":7879.76,"text":"大部分事實上是地方政府幾乎很多六歲以下小孩都安置在我們的保母家 早期還有放在幼兒園幼兒園也不是一個很好的長時間生活的方式在那邊居住啊 因為以前桃園就這樣"},{"start":7881.516,"end":7901.835,"text":"六歲以下小孩都安置在幼兒園那你現在就是說那我想問說一直對放這邊有困難可是現在今天兒少全法我覺得一直以來兒少全法一直都沒有談這個問題我說今天安置在保母家不是此時此刻也不是凱萊案發生的時候才有這種狀況歷年來就已經是這樣子從大概"},{"start":7903.874,"end":7912.017,"text":"我不知道有沒有記錯90年民國90年來以來一直以來就是讓地方政府就一直是在放孩子事實上在保母家"},{"start":7912.625,"end":7933.017,"text":"那如果這樣的話那這邊沒有強度那你那邊有一些強度那如果可以做早就可以做我跟你講也不用等到兒少如果真的認真覺得這問題兒少全罰也不用等兒少全罰大步伐要修如果這麼在意的話應該早就先修了幾條先進來不是嗎那你現在要兒少全罰我也不知道等到什麼時候那我只是想問"},{"start":7934.745,"end":7954.87,"text":"這個中間現在還是有空窗期因為你那邊也沒修這邊又沒有的時候你一直在講辦法所以我說111年你們自己本來111年7月14號你們就訂出來一個我剛剛講的直轄縣市運用居托人員來家外安置的那個原則有沒有 有啊可是112年怎麼還是發生呢"},{"start":7956.83,"end":7982.398,"text":"所以我才会觉得说那如果不要你要能说服我不是一直跟我讲说这会不会跌床加屋那边有那个未来要定我听你们这样对话以后有几个想法我稍微厘清一下就是说保姆成为安置家庭应该是最后不得不他基本上应该是寄养家庭那一种去处理"},{"start":7982.958,"end":8010.268,"text":"那一般而言保姆作为资源性支持性的去收这些安置的儿童他是非常耗费心力的一整天的24小时的所以他整个心力都在这个孩子身上其实是几乎应该很困难可以再收托一般的托儿那在这种状况里面事实上我们也应该理解这个支持性的保姆他应该是"},{"start":8011.989,"end":8032.219,"text":"像他的安置家庭一樣的要被評估他整個家庭都要被評估而不是說像我們居托中心一般去訪視那保姆這種收托這種安置的話他要類似機養家庭就不要用保姆管理的機制"},{"start":8032.959,"end":8053.995,"text":"所以也不要再收一般的托兒甚至在照顧的職能上跟一般收托一般的托兒是不一樣照顧的職能其實是跟一般保母差很多所以我們是希望說應該寄養兒童的保母跟一般保母要分流來管理"},{"start":8055.276,"end":8079.605,"text":"但是呢我们月勤一直在讲的问题就是说你们都毫无章法大家都直接交给保姆也不是寄养家庭寄养家庭不够大家就交给保姆但保姆目前都没有任何的配套也没有任何的监督的机制可是地方政府就直接丢给他们"},{"start":8080.986,"end":8107.146,"text":"那所以这是一个问题没有解决没有被解决他才要一直不断说纳管进来可是纳管进来他的整个纳管的机制评估访视监督的其实强度要比照寄养家庭了所以是应该是在寄养家庭的那一个法律的规范里面把爸母纳进去"},{"start":8108.127,"end":8131.218,"text":"可是因为你们又代务职责一直没有放进去所以变成两边他怕漏接所以在这里其实我不管就是说你要放到未来的寄养家庭儿少权法或是放在这里但我们都希望说收托安置儿童的保姆他对保护儿童"},{"start":8132.416,"end":8149.014,"text":"保護寄養兒童來講從這個角度來看的話他應該是要重演去好好的評估那管理的機制也不能用居托中心這一套仿事案管理都不行要另外立是應該是要這樣去思考請委員"},{"start":8153.939,"end":8175.601,"text":"我想这一条就是刚刚已经讨论蛮多的我的看法比较是就是说这些如果是已经是政府机构你要另外再找保姆来安置儿童的你本来就应该要另外一套更严格的标准就像你的寄养一样你有一套标准你今天要把它放在保姆家你就不可能是跟一般"},{"start":8176.707,"end":8205.55,"text":"家長放在保母家他每天還會接送回來的孩子一樣那應該是過去你們在這一塊的這個做法上面就是不夠嚴謹而且讓各縣市就是大家各自有一套不一樣的做法你們也沒有一個很嚴格的監督跟管理那我們如果按照整個法令的他的那個邏輯性來看的話今天我們這邊談的是托育專法所以他比較是"},{"start":8207.191,"end":8231.763,"text":"針對一般性的兒童這邊來做管理的就是你所有的理念架構其實都是這樣子的那至於會是經由政府或者是機構再安置到保母家的他應該是另外一個你們應該好好去研議那月秦委員剛剛他講那麼多就是他講出來是你們現在做不好的地方他是希望這邊放的就是這個法可能會比較快過所以希望優先放在這邊"},{"start":8232.423,"end":8250.289,"text":"他對你們是沒有信心的就是你們現在之前也不管然後如果是未來的這個兒權法可能又曠日廢時那你們必須回應讓委員知道說那你們這段期間如果你是要是未來在兒權法的話那你這段期間做了什麼強化不能在這一個"},{"start":8251.489,"end":8270.805,"text":"這邊又過了沒有力然後你的兒權法又遙遙無期然後這樣的一個空窗期那到底你作為主管機關你們中央主管機關你們會做什麼來保證這段期間你們對於這類型的孩子他的這個所有的監督管理是到位的然後再去接軌未來的兒權法的這個"},{"start":8273.767,"end":8301.096,"text":"修法我覺得你們這個講清楚嗎那當然你剛講的有你的道理在就是說我們是在修額頭轉法所以放在這邊可能有比較不適切的地方我想剛剛淑芬也有提出同樣的一個看法我的看法其實也是但是你們必須你們的做法月請委員提的是單行就是說你這樣的一個空窗請這邊又不利你另外一個法又那麼慢那你這段時間你到底可以做什麼來保證"},{"start":8304.051,"end":8331.459,"text":"可以這樣好不好 因為已經11點19因為我們後面還有很多 要不要先保留一下我講最後一句現在你們訂了直轄市縣市政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童的處理原則你目前這個原則也訂得太鬆了你們其實光是這個原則回去也應該要修一下你們應該要針對整個家庭去做評估而不是只有保姆做評估"},{"start":8332.349,"end":8351.666,"text":"那也跟阿憲說是不是收留安置保護寄養兒童的這個個案是不是跟一般托兒要在一起那沒有的話你要不要給人家更多錢好了 想一下 我們這條先不留 好不好到最後再來討論 繼續審查第30條"},{"start":8357.841,"end":8379.026,"text":"來 請進機關說明第30條就是有關在托育機構的影像監視設備的管理目前各個委員的版本大概對於要做監視而且基本上要上傳到地方主管機關的一個網際網路的儲存系統的部分"},{"start":8379.706,"end":8399.701,"text":"大體上各委員的版本都相近在之前在委員會審查的時候最後針對行政院版的第三項這個中央主管機關對於直轄市縣市去建置這個系統的時候的補助的方式這邊的話我們是有考慮到說由於最近有一個"},{"start":8403.123,"end":8421.731,"text":"這個政府財政的部分那我們是建議是不是有可能在對於這個因補助的部分有沒有機會調調整為得補助那這邊我們有一個建議另外那針對這本條第四項的部分那我們也參考了各委員的版本對於這個將來在對於"},{"start":8425.672,"end":8452.095,"text":"托育機構所監視下來的影像怎麼樣去抽查的部分在授權事項上面能夠去把它增補進去能夠有一個更明確的管理我們大概在這邊做了一個簡單做了一個相關的處理 以上我們建議的條文的文字就在今天有提供給委員的資料裡面請各位委員參閱 以上好 先請陳昭志委再請王育民委員"},{"start":8453.6,"end":8478.109,"text":"謝謝主席那衛福部既然有這個就是監管的一個美意但是這個針對第30條我想除了剛剛就是說上一次我們討論到經費編列的問題之外那外界目前有一些在實務面的一些疑慮我是請我想請這個衛福部能夠就這些疑慮就是把它稍微澄清跟說明我的重點在這裡大概有三件事情麻煩就是說"},{"start":8480.07,"end":8493.295,"text":"次長或署長等一下再做一個清楚的說明讓大家把這些疑慮能夠放下來第一個就是外界質疑去年12月底因為南韓不是發生了駭客嗎入侵了12萬台的攝影機他擷取了私密的影像剪輯成數百部的性剝削的影片"},{"start":8500.437,"end":8525.515,"text":"販售到海外的非法平台這個優利是存在所以對於資安跟影像外洩的風險請問情政機關會如何在制度跟技術這個面就確保我們國內不要發生類似的這個資安跟影像外洩的風險這是第一點等一下再麻煩兩位看哪一位來再做一個說明讓大家安心那第二個就是說監視露營的設置區要怎麼擺"},{"start":8527.016,"end":8553.28,"text":"才能夠兼顧安全管理的同時也避免拍攝到兒童私密畫面例如有一些家長也反映說日常照護室譬如換尿布的地方那如何去架設錄影機就目前第一線工作人員的反應就是說部分地方政府好像對機構的要求有引發一些疑慮就是說拍攝過於接近私密部位的疑慮就有些地方政府他有這些疑慮"},{"start":8553.68,"end":8573.23,"text":"那這個部分我們要不要做一個規範這是第二個部分那第三個就無論這是兒童法的監管或是之前處理私密影像犯罪證據資料庫都有一個重要的問題就是外界擔心我想我們其他委員應該也會要了解這個部分到底誰有權限去調閱或複製影像"},{"start":8575.071,"end":8591.562,"text":"那這些細節管理目前條文內容大部分條文委員都覺得說同意交由主管機關來訂定那當然是OK的交由主管機關來訂定但是我們希望是不是能夠說明的稍微清楚為了確保兒少權益跟避免權限的濫用未來主席上有哪些人員"},{"start":8592.583,"end":8621.546,"text":"或單位可以調閱複製或使用影像那會不會做分級的授權記錄跟集合的機制才能夠防範公務人員不當的調閱因為我為什麼要講這件事呢因為不管是最近發生像高雄市衛生局何前執密他藉用植物之騙輕易取得並且以此作為威脅兒少的工具他發生了這件事他發生了或是之前健保署主密竊取國人的健保資料尤其是情資人員資料賣到對岸去"},{"start":8622.367,"end":8642.386,"text":"那這個總統行政管理上發生問題我想讓外界的擔憂就是說他找不到一個切確答案所以我是不是先麻煩就是說我是希望說這個說明就讓這個不要讓監管的美意變成一些民憂或民怨基本上就是說尊重你們的要來管理但這三件事情是不是麻煩衛福部來說清楚謝謝"},{"start":8648.214,"end":8668.331,"text":"謝謝謝謝趙執委員的的垂詢那針對這個趙執委員所問到的部分我想大概針對大概簡單的來說一個說明第一個資安跟資安的部分那當然這樣一個資安將來是儲存到是一個只要是縣市去指定的一個網際網路儲存空間那其實我們我們"},{"start":8670.753,"end":8699.594,"text":"社交組這邊其實先前在為了要準備這樣的事項的時候我們對於國內相關的資安技術跟有這樣去一個比較妥善去能夠去保管甚至在傳輸的過程裡面能夠適度的加密然後儲存之後進去能夠順著網路能夠進去的防火牆跟資安的管理的部分相關有能力的技術以及可能潛在的一些國內相關可能比較"},{"start":8700.214,"end":8718.387,"text":"安全性比較好的機房等等我們大概都做了一些先做了一些這個 survey那我們去了解一下相關的資訊的能力的管理的部分那這些訊息大概在整理之後我們都會提供給縣市政府那供縣市政府在未來去選擇相關在不管在這個"},{"start":8719.748,"end":8740.515,"text":"廠商的領選然後在資安設計的時候怎麼樣去做相關的影像加密傳輸過程裡面的加密的部分那這邊我們都會提供給縣市政府來做一個完整的參考那第二個是在影像設置的鏡頭設置的部分那其實這個是現行的條文已經是要求所有的托育機構它自己"},{"start":8741.789,"end":8762.562,"text":"已经要做监视的动作只是要没有要上传现行的规定就自己要保存那我们在现行规定里面就已经规定了它这个要装设的区域包括了在户外像出入口对外的窗户走道那室内的公共区域那基本上它的画面要采取什么样的"},{"start":8763.422,"end":8785.917,"text":"的一個畫面例如說彩色還是是不是要彩色然後這個攝影的角度要全面那當然大家所關心到的這個因為監視的過程可能對於這個受託小朋友的這個這個敏感的部位那我們是可以將來在後面的在這個規定將來在後續處理的時候我們可以做一個比較"},{"start":8788.698,"end":8815.627,"text":"做一個比較精準的規範那不要太去針對太特定的因為這樣的一個錄像的目的其實就是一個比較全面性活動的資料的一個保存那不要過度的針對特定人特定角度或者是特定的部位去做這樣的一個攝錄影的動作這個我們可以來做一定的處理那最後一個是針對未來的調閱跟全線的部分"},{"start":8816.147,"end":8842.495,"text":"那這個我們會分成大概在兩個部分一個是第一個對於儲存已經儲存到網際網路由縣市管理的部分那它一定要一定會有一個明確的市由那誰才有權限那在甚至在儲存的過程在調閱的過程中是要透過什麼樣的程序有沒有什麼樣的人能夠看等等那這個部分的話我們現在都"},{"start":8843.915,"end":8869.849,"text":"在先前大概都有提到我們會做一個比較嚴格的管理那這樣的儲存現在儲存在這個網際網路的部分基本上我們現在規定的就是儲存而不是說上去了以後隨便都可以去監看所以這個我們也希望跟外界做一個說明就是並不是有人在雲端隨時去看影像其實我們的設計就不是這個樣子那它就是一個影像檔案"},{"start":8870.729,"end":8899.728,"text":"存到雲端之後那有一定的室友才可以去調閱那對於調閱的事項調閱的有能夠申請的人那申請的流程這邊我們未來都會在這個授權的辦法裡面跟縣市跟相關的團體去經過謹慎的討論之後來做相關的律定簡單做以上說明謝謝主席請允許我跟他稍微再互動一下因為他說明的東西那個那你剛剛第一個有關治安的影響外洩風險我覺得你們是可以先"},{"start":8901.149,"end":8920.541,"text":"測試一下 然後找高手想辦法駭入 當然這個測試的內容是ok因為你這個部分 因為畢竟別的國家發生了它畢竟發生了 你雖然說你們盡力做盡力做盡力做但是我希望是說用不同的方式去檢驗你說的東西 因為這個還是一個"},{"start":8922.908,"end":8940.508,"text":"幾個大疑慮裡面當中一定會有這個疑慮那第二個你剛剛已經明確的規範說你會給地方政府有一個明確的規範那會去稽查或稽核嗎就是說你規範了他是不是這樣設置那那個位置等等是否恰當你們會有人再去做確認跟稽核嗎"},{"start":8942.31,"end":8964.017,"text":"就是這個部分因為規範是規範嘛規範跟實務現在我講的都是實務面嘛就是說既然貴婦往這個方向做那我們實務面上你是不是會這個規範能不能落實會不會去做確認跟這個檢查那第三個我再確認一下你說現在只有儲存的功能嗎現在沒有調閱的機制嗎"},{"start":8966.681,"end":8988.856,"text":"就是說有調閱機制但是你要再去訂但是因為像高雄市衛生局植蜜也夠大我就不知道說你這個全縣都很大健保署也是主蜜啊也是主蜜啊這個剛剛我提的一個是那個威脅兒少的這個案子一個是勤之人的健康使整個送到對岸去"},{"start":8989.856,"end":9010.371,"text":"他的位置很高啊所以這個東西到底在什麼情況下要啟動我想還是讓國人瞭解 當然是由你們去制定但是國人的疑慮是有他的原因的謝謝 謝謝主席對 王育文先說 你再一步回應"},{"start":9012.014,"end":9027.576,"text":"我剛有舉手我先講完你再一邊回應那個關於第30條這個是新立的法令而且看起來中央主管機關的要求其實也蠻嚴格的那我是覺得什麼事情都是權責相符"},{"start":9028.477,"end":9045.446,"text":"這一條如果要執行下去剛剛陳昭政委員提到有些資安的問題其實是要非常到位的那資安要到位事實上這涉及到技術也涉及到設備也涉及到後續相關人員的管理"},{"start":9045.886,"end":9061.075,"text":"那這一些通通都是需要經費的我過去在台中市政府擔任副市長的時候事實上也發現不同縣市之間本來在對與做這一些資訊設備的儲存跟應用會跟錢有很大的關係"},{"start":9062.176,"end":9090.836,"text":"如果今天有一個縣市他的財政比較困難坦白講他設備也會比較低階他也不會有什麼專人來做這件事情所以這件事情我的意見就是一定是要一條邊你所有的規格你資訊設備的規格然後你的人員然後你的治安的設備條件這個是一條邊的沒有縣市差異化沒有說你這個縣市有錢多做一點這個縣市沒有錢就會少做一點"},{"start":9091.636,"end":9119.824,"text":"所以我就要講到根本的原來你們的法條最原始的版本就是為什麼是說中央主管機關應補助地方因為由你們統一就是我怎麼要求地方就應該怎麼做因為我所有的規格都是我開的我就是開這些你就要照辦那你這樣才能達到品質品質大家是一樣的安全也是一樣的我要講的還有安全那你現在任意性的把它修改成德"},{"start":9120.524,"end":9129.184,"text":"我跟你說會亂的套就會變成是各縣市你有些要求沒錢的我跟你講做不到就做不到了就像這次營養午餐"},{"start":9130.049,"end":9156.997,"text":"各縣市有能力的就是跟進那很抱歉像嘉義縣這麼窮的地方就是沒有跟不了那以後你這個得以下去之後你如果是這種不是一個一筆預算由中央到地方而且是一致性的補助的話你會變成什麼有能力的像台北市財政比較好的他沒有問題我就講像嘉義縣那麼窮的他就會有問題"},{"start":9158.237,"end":9177.753,"text":"那你補他還是不補他那你將來的原則是什麼就是說很窮的我就補給你嘛那其他又來跟你argue說那我們是中等的我就變成是不三不四像我們現在很多就是一下子偏鄉一下子什麼然後有一些就是中間他說我的財力沒那麼差也沒那麼好你要不要給"},{"start":9178.976,"end":9201.885,"text":"我覺得那是徒增困擾才化法那是另外一回事那個現在大家都還在談但這邊法的精神我們該怎麼去要求地方政府要他們到位那就全責相符你絕對可以去要求但是你要給相同的資源所以30條我的意見還是應該回到最原始的原來行政院跟各位提出來的版本就是"},{"start":9202.405,"end":9227.718,"text":"中央主管機關應補助直轄市因為你這樣一個因你也扛起了預算的責任所以你在監督各縣市你有底氣而且你也敢強力要求因為我開的規格就是這樣我資源都給你你還不做那你當然可以好好去查不然你有什麼你就是就是說我中央都是來監督你但是你不給資源然後什麼不提供然後什麼都一直要求"},{"start":9228.427,"end":9250.933,"text":"我覺得中央跟地方本來就是一個合作啦我想次長也擔任過地方的局長你也知道中央地方本來就是一個合作那中央做得到的我覺得就應該去到位更何況這一條現在很多業者大反彈還在那邊開記者會對不對那你如果要幫助地方政府好辦事你資源要到位啊他還要去幫你去溝通那些業者"},{"start":9252.173,"end":9274.876,"text":"就是要他們來配合所以不用在這上面就是把原來的因改成德啦我覺得這樣兒托專法大家都想要讓我們托育的品質提升那這個條文也是去確保孩子的安全那我覺得就是讓事情順利會比較好啦那如果主管機關不同意的話我就會喊保留30條保留好 謝謝王正旭委員"},{"start":9276.96,"end":9301.691,"text":"我們晚了可能要到辯論了 請說那今天我跟大家報告一下就是說當然30條經過強化以後似乎有改善不過我們還是會擔心有一些還是不足的地方所以我們才在第四跟第五項追加了相關的一些期待能夠讓大家共同討論以後能夠把它納進來"},{"start":9302.631,"end":9322.731,"text":"那我之所以會這樣的話因為我們知道所有的這些影像的保存對這一群兒童來講特別的重要因為他們根本平常是不會講話的也沒有辦法表達自己那其實我們也知道在之前的相關的辦法裡面就已經規定30天的保存"},{"start":9323.311,"end":9344.882,"text":"可是呢在112年社家署就有發布了一份報告就是為了外界懷疑托嬰中心監視的部分的資安外洩的問題他那個時候有統計在114年到112年裡面不當對待114件還有在幾乎相近的時間有一些額略的問題"},{"start":9345.882,"end":9361.791,"text":"那在114件裡面監視設備因人為操作不當或損毀的10件那在例行積查裡面發現受到影響需要改善的有31件這代表說在執行過程裡面即使我們訂了要求辦法"},{"start":9362.731,"end":9382.043,"text":"即使現在入法了很有可能還是會有一些無法執行到位的地方所以我們會在第四項跟第五項希望能夠定期的追蹤相關的這些設備儲存的問題主要還是儲存他應該要知道他有沒有定期的把這些內容放到這個雲端裡面來"},{"start":9383.504,"end":9412.633,"text":"另外就是希望能夠有更完整的讓這個兒童的法定代理人能夠去調閱相關這些攝影錄音的資料因為像我剛剛所提到的因為這是後來唯一能夠讓大家確認這個誰是在這個事件裡面造成的影響這個所以我們才特別在第四項第五項裡面把這個問題凸顯出來希望能夠入法"},{"start":9413.473,"end":9433.828,"text":"即使原本的這些內容已經有部分的cover可是還是相對是不足的所以才希望說經過大家在確認在討論能不能夠也把這個第四跟第五項我們增添的部分能夠納為入法的一個內容的機會以上的報告 謝謝"},{"start":9437.839,"end":9460.31,"text":"要不要請 請先再做統一回應好的 針對這個剛才趙執委員然後王正訓委員剛才提到這個在食物面操作的部分那第一個當然在資安的部分我們這個在資安的要求上面一定會從嚴來做相關的處理那剛才也許是我這個"},{"start":9461.551,"end":9482.051,"text":"口頭上面講得不夠精準我們基本上是表達的是說個別的托育機構的影像上傳之後他是把這個影像的檔案上傳到這個網際網路指定的處所去儲存但是在這個過程中間並不會發生說有人直接在上面去直接監視的這樣的狀況"},{"start":9484.173,"end":9512.905,"text":"那當然這樣儲存了以後就是目的就是為了在這個必要的時候能夠去做一個有一個證據的保全所以當然在調閱的時候一定會要有一個明確的事由有一個完整的流程那這個部分的話具體的細節那都會在透過最後一項的授權的事項裡面未來在授權的辦法裡面我們會做一個清楚的律定這個部分我們一定會來操作"},{"start":9513.445,"end":9534.179,"text":"那王委員剛才所提到的這個在抽查的部分這也是我們在這也是希望能夠回應到委員剛才所提到的部分所以這個有關抽查的部分我們現在在這個授權的事項裡面那我們是寫的確實寫的相對稍微精簡一點那就是針對抽查的部分我們會去把它納進來好那這個在前端"},{"start":9536.921,"end":9558.069,"text":"它只要錄影的時候抽查就能夠從源頭去確定它的監視錄影的狀況然後去抽查那當然這個上傳到雲端的時候在雲端保存期間雲端的資料的狀態那當然這個也會在雲端管理的內容裡面我們會來做一定的相關的來做處理"},{"start":9559.029,"end":9586.721,"text":"至於王委員先前也有在我不確定是修正動議還是附帶決議裡面有提到就是有一些叫延長保存時間的部分這個部分的話我們是建議可以用我們會建議是不是在條文裡面就不特別寫例外是怎麼樣處理但是透過附帶決議這個有狀況要延長保存期間我們可以未來在授權的辦法裡面我們把這個要延長的部分我們都一併納進來這個我們可以"},{"start":9588.302,"end":9610.129,"text":"完全可以配合來做所以條文裡面就是先維持原條文可是會用附帶決議來處理是是那我們很擔心就是包括這個期限因為你現在是至少保存30天嘛那你30天也許還有在程序在處理中是是"},{"start":9614.855,"end":9644.041,"text":"了解 OK 好好好 尊重那個應得怎麼辦不是應得顧台灣喔聽好你是要應還要得要得還要應不是啦 不是尊重我啦看你啦 人家大陸說你如果要得他就要飆你也真沒堅持"},{"start":9651.092,"end":9652.173,"text":"我們休息一下我們先走了"},{"start":9921.482,"end":9921.803,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":10831.169,"end":10831.711,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":10872.967,"end":10890.384,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":11144.847,"end":11145.348,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":11266.844,"end":11267.169,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":11970.564,"end":11970.949,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":12324.366,"end":12350.657,"text":"我就是要在這裡問大家的意見 要不然你坐在那裡 誰誰人誰人都要處理啊誰誰人要坐在那裡好了來我們現在12點26分剛剛討論到第30條給曾詠歌委員意見看到怎樣 要審到什麼時候 都沒有意見 來我是建議我們下禮拜二下禮拜二再繼續啊禮拜二下禮拜二"},{"start":12351.618,"end":12370.701,"text":"院會應該沒有表決事項了沒有動員禮拜二或三都可以沒有 禮拜三、四是省省選法那禮拜二 下禮拜二這樣比較整齊不要招來招去 總來總去就一個完整的時段"},{"start":12372.472,"end":12385.998,"text":"好 再擺 沒關係這樣現在我們今天是不是到這裡就好了30條處理好30條處理好就好了因為其他的黨好啦 那就30條30條好OK啦就說30條處理完處理到30條就好了啦好"},{"start":12394.739,"end":12419.266,"text":"OK那我可以再繼續發言嗎可以啦可以啦剛剛30條我們有看到最新的部分就是前陣子大家討論就是把那個德改成英嘛那其實我們也一直希望能夠或者是把那個檢查跟抽查不太一樣啦那個抽查的意思是要看現場有東西嗎"},{"start":12422.267,"end":12442.663,"text":"檢查是說送到雲端的資料有人去注意按照需要送上來沒有所以如果能夠在抽雜之前也再加兩個字檢查那可以更完備啦這樣就不至於擔心說在處理過程裡面造成什麼樣的疏漏應該就讓整個"},{"start":12444.804,"end":12469.789,"text":"在這30條的部分可以更為完整啦 不然是不是再麻煩市長這個可以提起一下抽查改檢查是不是是不是檢查然後頓耗再抽查這樣子兩個意思不一樣來請說明尊重委員的那個提議把增加檢查頓耗抽查機制好謝謝"},{"start":12473.103,"end":12498.419,"text":"好 那所以就得稿的因了喔 對不對因為剛才這個我也知道這是大家都關心的但是剛才現在那個財力等級這還是不一樣我是不是建議說因市財力等級所以你問他要怎麼改沒關係 因市財力等級因市財力等級"},{"start":12505.299,"end":12532.142,"text":"不要緊 你給他說一下 處長你先說完 後面要處理我意思是說真的還是 我說得很清楚台北市這次的財務發料是400萬養的你中央去補助這種的這我覺得我是不太能夠接受啦好所以我的意思是說是不是家就是因事財力等級補助這樣"},{"start":12534.755,"end":12542.426,"text":"應試財力等級補助中央主管機關應試財力等級補助之下現施主管機關是不是這樣對啦 現在我們有財力分級啊你現在看不看得到"},{"start":12548.68,"end":12575.894,"text":"沒關係啦你不用緊張啦 你不用緊張 我這樣啦不然就這樣 你們把文字修出來啦我們一樣這條就是先保留先保留啦 這樣啦好 這樣 今天要補充嗎沒有齁 不然就休息啦 來好 我們這個相關保留案尚未處理完略那則起繼續審查 現在散會 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我們現在進行國事論壇每位委員發言三分鐘首先我們請張志倫委員發言 蔓越真委員請準備院長 各位同仁 各位媒體朋友大家早安 大家好本席今天站在這裡仍然以"},{"start":1775.939,"end":1794.413,"text":"沉重與嚴肅的心情針對當前中華民國憲政體制上所面臨到的嚴峻挑戰向賴清德總統與執政團隊提出深切的提醒與呼籲面對在野黨提出的彈劾案賴清德總統居然還若無其事地辯稱"},{"start":1795.424,"end":1823.017,"text":"自己不貪不娶為何要被彈劾這種說法似乎還對彈劾的意涵僅僅限於貪瀆的層次我們要告訴賴總統錯誤的政策比貪污還可怕而摧毀國家體制影響比貪污案更為深遠首先賴政府創下了拒絕附屬的二直先例將神聖的附屬權轉化為一票否決權完全"},{"start":1824.181,"end":1842.112,"text":"曲解了憲法一旨率性認為只要不合黨意就技術性不執行立法院三讀通過的法律這不僅是閹割立法權更是公然將行政權凌駕於法律上讓台灣一步一步走向行政獨裁的險境"},{"start":1842.833,"end":1863.166,"text":"若行政部門因立場不同變技術性的手段讓立法院通過三讀通過的法律無法執行這無疑是行政與立法責任政治與權力的制衡狀況的打破本席擔憂此例一開未來行政權將缺乏有效監督這並非民主之福"},{"start":1864.144,"end":1882.926,"text":"其次 關於憲政機關的互動本席認為應該回歸互相尊重的基礎及其執政黨頻繁使用釋憲來處理國會的決議雖然釋憲是憲法賦予的權力但若視為常態性的政治攻防的工具"},{"start":1884.134,"end":1909.779,"text":"恐導致司法政治化的疑慮特別是在大法官的提名與運作上社會大眾所期待的是一個超越黨派獨立公正的司法守護者若提名人選或法庭運作未能充分展現其獨立性甚至引發為特定立場來護航的質疑這將嚴重損害司法的公正性"},{"start":1910.439,"end":1935.255,"text":"司法是社会正义的最后一道防线我们不愿意看到这个防线因政治纷扰而产生裂痕追根究底我们期盼赖总统能将目光从短期的政治攻防转化为国家长远的治理若当前国家资源过度消耗在朝野攻防与宪政争议真正受苦的是"},{"start":1935.802,"end":1964.015,"text":"期待民生與經濟發展的黎民百姓為了維護中華民國憲政體制的穩定讓國家回歸到正軌本席呼籲朝野立委應支持彈劾案終結這場毀憲亂政的鬧劇給台灣民主社會一個更好的法治社會謝謝張志文委員發言國務委員會我們現在熱情歡迎來自新北市永和區"},{"start":1966.431,"end":1973.584,"text":"鼎熙國小的同學們 我們掌聲歡迎大家接下來我們請麥玉珍委員請發言"},{"start":1980.848,"end":2006.438,"text":"主席親愛的家人大家好今天我要向賴清德總統提出一個嚴肅來自人民最真誠的申訴政府對立不是人民的錯依法行政是政府最基本的責任在2017年政府宣布成立少子化對策辦公室"},{"start":2006.998,"end":2026.785,"text":"宣稱要面對國家危機但8年過去了辦公室從未真正的成立只留下新聞與口號如今要提出兒少及家庭支持署卻未對過去的跳票負責這不是"},{"start":2027.425,"end":2043.88,"text":"治理国家而是反复消耗人民的信任更严重的是少子化现在是新住民解决新二代逐年增加发展署"},{"start":2044.861,"end":2074.279,"text":"已經立法在12月10日三讀通過法例明確規定三個月內必須成立依法今年三月三入然而內政部卻在115年度總預算中完全未編列相關經費還指控立法院因預算未審而無法成立新住民發展署的"},{"start":2074.88,"end":2085.058,"text":"推卸責任我要請教大家政府可以顛倒是非扭曲事實嗎還是行政怠惰"},{"start":2086.549,"end":2114.786,"text":"還是濫用職權打壓人民欺騙社會新住民不是政治籌碼更不是可以犧牲的族群新住民和所有國民一樣承擔家庭經濟面對掃紙花的壓力與恐懼只希望依法設立一個值得信賴在我們最無助的時候直接求救的窗口"},{"start":2115.626,"end":2136.469,"text":"有那麼困難嗎這不是族群的需求而已也因應少子化對策的是新住民我們更期待新住民能發揮專長為台灣貢獻成為政府解決社會及家庭的問題重要夥伴"},{"start":2137.189,"end":2164.827,"text":"是必須的政策為何不落實在此我要誠懇呼應賴清德總統人民是你的家人不是敵人新住民是台灣人不是外人要求政府依法行政要國家回到正常運轉展現領導者的智慧與承擔守護孩子的未來與人民的幸福"},{"start":2169.66,"end":2194.609,"text":"好 謝謝蔓玉珍委員的發言 謝謝接下來我們請登記最後一位 林倩琦委員請發言院長 捕會同仁 媒體朋友 全國民眾 大家好"},{"start":2195.908,"end":2208.672,"text":"理性能源治理深化國家韌性本席今天要討論的是台海情勢當中經常被過度簡化卻深刻影響戰略判斷的關鍵因素能源國際輿論認為"},{"start":2211.733,"end":2231.375,"text":"美国只要掌握了委内瑞拉跟伊朗的石油出口就足以重创中共当局的三分之一的能源供给然而实际情况是中共的原油进口结构呈现高度分散的情况主要的来源还是集中在中东与俄罗斯合成的比重"},{"start":2232.256,"end":2255.675,"text":"大约六成委内瑞拉跟伊朗的比例仅介于1到1成5当中因此美国的战略不是立即切断供应而是借由金融结算航运调度保险体系等制度优势来提高中共取得能源的成本与不确定性这样的制裁模式对于冲突出击的军事行动"},{"start":2256.155,"end":2270.667,"text":"其實約束力有限中共已經建立了相當規模的戰略能源儲備然而一旦轉成長期消耗戰能源的壓力就不再只是邊際的變數而是會直接影響民生工業運作與社會穩定"},{"start":2272.988,"end":2292.534,"text":"當低成本去風險化的能源管道受限勢必承受更高的戰略溢價這種戰後長期成壓的結構性風險才是真正對決策層構成實質嚇阻的關鍵從中華民國的角度出發這至少帶來三項重要的啟示第一"},{"start":2293.274,"end":2311.031,"text":"台海的安全不是只有军事问题而是深度地堪入了全球能源金融与供应链的结构性议题政府必须持续地让国际间清楚台海冲突将冲击全球经济制度的稳定"},{"start":2311.952,"end":2330.773,"text":"第二政府必須要正視能源韌性所承載的國安意涵無論是能源來源的多元化戰略儲備量能電網的穩定度以及降低對單一能源的依賴更不能預設跟排除任何發電的選項包括核能"},{"start":2331.514,"end":2357.594,"text":"第三中华民国应持续的扮演稳定而不是局势的一个催化剂的角色不仅应该积极来推动两岸的和平稳定的现状更应该透过民主伙伴等能源安全金融韧性与供应链重组上的深化合作让任何企图以武力来改变现状的行为都必须要承受高昂且长期性的结构性代价"},{"start":2358.294,"end":2372.283,"text":"能源不是政府用來製造恐慌的工具而是預防地緣變局的戰略基礎當全球體系已經高度聯動真正具有嚇阻力的往往不是情緒與口號而是理性務實與結構性的制衡這是中華民國在動彈"},{"start":2385.425,"end":2402.704,"text":"謝謝林倩琪委員的發言我們現在登記國事論壇的委員已經發言完畢請各黨團幹部於上午10點鐘整到議場後方主席休息室我們進行本次會議議程之溝通現在休息"},{"start":5348.171,"end":5369.557,"text":"報告院會我們開始開會請民主黨報告出席人數報告院會出席委員61人已足法定人數我們現在來開會報告院會因為本次的議程有待溝通因此請各黨團幹部現在立即到議場後方主席辦公室我們來進行溝通先來休息"},{"start":7177.271,"end":7206.509,"text":"來 報告院會我們繼續開會因為程旭文會以本次會議的議事日程草案送院會處理現在由黨團以本院議事成立對本次會議議事日程草案提出異議我們要現在進行處理並截止收案報告院會現在由黨團共事如下一 議程草案確認 詢議一 提案先後進行處理二 院會抽出動議 無異議 照案通過三"},{"start":7207.469,"end":7236.753,"text":"一般提案115年度中央政府總預算案新興資本支出及計畫動質案不作提案說明大體討論之後由臺灣民眾黨團推派一位民進黨團推派三位國民黨團推派三位輪流交叉發言每人發言時間三分鐘發言完畢之後我們進行處理四 一般提案國情報告案及公職人員選舉報名修正案等三案均另定其處理"},{"start":7238.399,"end":7258.711,"text":"五 復議案不再發言 進行處理六 完成協商之國軍老舊眷村改建條例修正案公共電視法修正案一 協商結論進行處理 散開議案完成三讀之後 均不再發言七"},{"start":7259.879,"end":7275.873,"text":"農民退休儲金條例修正案如果有完成協商於下週二院會依照協商結論我們進行處理八 農產品市場交易法第35條條文修正案如完成協商結論"},{"start":7277.094,"end":7303.316,"text":"各黨團同意 增列入本次會議討論事項不需協商之農產品市場交易法修正案後依序排列 進行處理本日院會處理至公共電視法修正案完畢之後院會即休息下星期二 我們院會不進行表決繼續處理後續討論事項之議案"},{"start":7307.838,"end":7324.311,"text":"處理完畢之後,即行散會。當次院會,我們不再處理臨時提案。抱怨會,本次院會後續依照黨團共識進行。我們先進行報告事項部分,請議事人宣讀黨團第一內容。"},{"start":7326.212,"end":7352.088,"text":"本院民進黨黨團針對立法院第十一屆第四會期第十八次會議議事成報告事項 質詢事項擬請增列報告事項三選案如附表是否有當進行公決本院台灣民眾黨黨團針對第十一屆第四會期第十八次會議議事成報告事項及質詢事項提議僅限列議事成草案所列議案及效表所列三選案是否有當進行公決本院國民黨黨團"},{"start":7353.449,"end":7379.637,"text":"針對第十一屆第四會期第十八次會議議程報告事項及質詢事項提議僅限列議權草案所列議案及效表所列三十五案是否有當進行公決宣言完畢報告委員會我們依照先後處理各黨團提議請問院會對民進黨提通過有無異議有異議我們要進行表決我們開始按鈴七分鐘並分發表決卡現在開始按鈴"},{"start":7804.568,"end":7829.102,"text":"好 報告約會七分鐘按鈴 時間已到我們要開始進行表決請問是否每位委員都有拿到表決卡都有拿到表決卡好 我們要開始進行表決現在針對民進黨黨團提議通過贊成 按贊成反對 按反對 時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":7903.171,"end":7931.162,"text":"保安委員會報告表決結果出席委員107位贊成48位反對59位贊成則少數民進黨黨團提議不通過保安委員會我們現在進行處理台灣民眾黨團僅限列之提議因為國民黨團之提議與台灣民眾黨團提議相同我們進行一併處理"},{"start":7932.851,"end":7950.98,"text":"請問院會 針對台灣民眾黨團 國民黨團提議通過有意義有意義我們進行表決現在針對台灣民眾黨團 國民黨團提議現在有民進黨團要求記名表決贊成按贊成 反對按反對時間一分鐘 現在開始"},{"start":8023.889,"end":8039.683,"text":"報告表決結果 出席委員107位 贊成59位 反對48位贊成者多數 臺灣民眾黨團 國民黨團提議照案通過本次會議意思是呈報告事項 質詢事項照 臺灣民眾黨團 國民黨團提議通過"},{"start":8044.227,"end":8053.431,"text":"報告議員會 我們繼續處理討論事項部分以先後處理各黨團提議我們現在處理民進黨團討論事項提供議案請議事人員宣讀提議內容請問議員會對民進黨團提議有無異議"},{"start":8072.253,"end":8077.344,"text":"由議我們要進行表決贊成民進黨團提議請按贊成 反對按反對 時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":8153.138,"end":8178.514,"text":"報告 表決結果出席 108 位 贊成 48 位 反對 60 位 贊成者少數民進黨黨團提議不通過 報告委員會林俊憲委員發表聲明對剛才表決與民進黨團意見一致 我們列入公報記錄我們現在進行處理台灣民眾黨團僅限列之提議國民黨團與台灣民眾黨團提議"},{"start":8180.942,"end":8205.214,"text":"相同 我們一併進行處理請議事人員一併宣讀題內容本院台灣民眾導導團針對第十一屆第四會期第十八次會議議事程討論事項提議僅限列如附表十二案是否有道進行公決本院國民導導團針對第十一屆第四會期第十八次會議議事程討論事項提議僅限列如附表共十二案是否有道進行公決宣讀完畢"},{"start":8206.614,"end":8214.52,"text":"選院會針對臺灣民眾黨團 國民黨團體有無異議有異議我們要進行表決我們現在針對臺灣民眾黨團 國民黨團體現在有民進黨團要求記名表決我們開始進行記名表決贊成 暗贊成 反對暗反對 時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":8298.332,"end":8305.676,"text":"包園會報告表決結果 除其108位 贊成59位 反對49位 贊成者多數臺灣民眾黨團 國民黨團提議照案通過我們本次會議一時日程討論事項 照臺灣民眾黨團 國民黨團提議通過本次會議一時日程確定現在進行報告事項 請民進黨宣讀第四會期 第17次會議事錄"},{"start":8323.519,"end":8346.25,"text":"宣讀立法案第十一屆第四會議第十七次會議一事度實現中華民國一百十五年一月九日十三日地點本院議場出席委員陳委員招師等一百十一人請假委員蔡委員議員等二人主席院長韓國瑜報告事項第一案宣讀本院第十一屆第四會議第十六次會議一事度決定確定第二之一二九"},{"start":8347.471,"end":8358.881,"text":"其中第165 167案均決定禁貿毒與相關提案並案協商其餘1案均決定交互相關委員會審查處理或交互相關委員會第130-141案"},{"start":8363.205,"end":8383.295,"text":"為司法及法治委員會所提出報告案 諮詢事項甲 行政答案部分五件以本院委員諮詢部分二件 討論事項第一案決議 會議案不通過第二之六 十一首案均決議 另定其處理 第七至十案均決議通過其他事項 本次會議是日程照台灣民眾黨黨團國民黨黨團提議通過 宣讀完畢"},{"start":8387.43,"end":8407.706,"text":"發言會針對第四會期第十七次會議議事錄並沒有委員或黨團提出錯誤或遺漏之處我們現在做以下決定第四會期第十七次會議議事錄確定現在處理針列部分請宣讀議案一 委員吳小林等"},{"start":8410.185,"end":8434.265,"text":"一 委員汪小林等理據 要害救濟法第3條條文修正草案 禮教社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢全院會有異議 異議通過下言二 委員蘇金權等理據 醫療法第12條條文修正草案 禮教社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢法院會報告事項第二案 有國民黨團體金富二族與相關提案並案協商 全院會有異議 沒有異議 本案金富二族與相關提案並案協商下言"},{"start":8435.225,"end":8456.828,"text":"三 委員羅明財等理據 民法第1223條條文修正草案 禮教司法及法治委員會審查 宣言完畢五 委員羅明財等理據 癌症防治法第16條條文修正草案 禮教社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣言完畢五 委員徐曉新等理據 行政院組織法第4條條文修正草案 禮教司法及法治委員會審查 宣言完畢五 委員徐曉新等理據 行政院組織法第4條條文修正草案 禮教司法及法治委員會審查 宣言完畢五 委員徐曉新等理據"},{"start":8457.749,"end":8473.907,"text":"6 委員王玉敏等你據就業保險法部份條文修正草案你將社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查7 委員王玉敏等你據老年農民福利今天撰寫條例第二條第三條及第四條條文修正草案你將社會福利及衛生環境經濟內政三委員會審查"},{"start":8476.07,"end":8491.546,"text":"8.5元零欠期的女聚大學法第7條及第35條條文修正草案李昭教育及文化委員會審查我一條我小雅9.5元零欠期的女聚偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第8條條文修正草案李昭教育及文化委員會審查我一條我小雅"},{"start":8492.166,"end":8495.308,"text":"我一同我想要我一同我想要我一同我想要"},{"start":8514.796,"end":8539.461,"text":"十三 委員李毅說的理據衛生福利部而涉及家庭支持組織法條案 禮教司法及法治社會福利及衛生環境 兩委員會審查五一通和小雅十四 委員羅廷慧的理據環境牆評估法第五條條文修正條案 禮教社會福利及衛生環境 委員會審查五一通和小雅十五 委員張天才的理據原住民族教育法第十一條條文修正條案 禮教教育者文化內政 兩委員會審查五一通和小雅"},{"start":8539.981,"end":8561.559,"text":"十六 委員鄭天才的凝聚 發展觀光條例部分條文修正草案 擬交交通委員會審查 宣布違憲委員鄭敬慧的凝聚 加設事件法第108條條文修正草案 擬交司法及法中委員會審查 宣布違憲委員鄭敬慧的凝聚 兒童期12年未來就與發展政務條例部分條文修正草案 擬交社會福利經濟環境委員會審查 宣布違憲委員"},{"start":8563.52,"end":8587.56,"text":"主席 委員陳慶輝等你去 同情少年福利與權益保障法第69條條文修正草案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣言完畢委員陳慶輝等你去 要釋法部分條文修正草案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣言完畢委員賴偉祥等你去 衛生福利部長期照顧及社會發展署組織法草案 擬交司法及法制社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣言完畢"},{"start":8590.142,"end":8597.725,"text":"22.委員 梁偉祥 等你去 衛生福利部 和尚及家庭知識署 組織法草案 擬交司法及法徵 社會福利及衛生環境 兩委員會審查23."},{"start":8597.725,"end":8600.927,"text":"委員 劉憲國 等你去 衛生福利部 和尚及照顧及社會發展署 組織法草案 擬交司法及法徵 社會福利及衛生環境 兩委員會審查22."},{"start":8600.927,"end":8608.409,"text":"委員 劉憲國 等你去 衛生福利部 和尚及照顧及社會發展署 組織法草案 擬交司法及法徵 社會福利及衛生環境 兩委員會審查23"},{"start":8609.91,"end":8614.053,"text":"六十四 委員劉建國的臨據五十五 委員劉建國的臨據五十五 委員劉建國的臨據五十六 委員劉建國的臨據五十五 委員劉建國的臨據"},{"start":8639.289,"end":8655.37,"text":"二十七 委員蘇祥惠等你據警察法第五條 第六條及第九條條文修正常案您將內政委員會審查 宣揚議題委員蘇祥惠等你據太空發展法在內地十四條之一及第十四條之二條文常案您將消費局網話委員會審查 宣揚議題委員蘇祥惠等你據"},{"start":8656.872,"end":8682.34,"text":"二十九 委員蘇曉慧 等你據文化藝術講述及促進條例第十五條 條文修正草案擬交教育及文化財政 聯委員會審查 宣言完畢三十五 委員蘇曉慧 等你據身心障礙者權益保障法 部門條文修正草案擬交社會福利及衛生環境 委員會審查 宣言完畢三十一 委員王振旭 等你據人工生產法 修正草案擬交社會福利及衛生環境司法及法事 聯委員會審查 宣言完畢三十二 臺灣"},{"start":8683.26,"end":8693.423,"text":"民眾黨黨團聯聚中央廣播電臺設置條例第3條第4條基地屬腳條條文修正常案禮教司法及法制隧道一局文化兩委員會審查 宣言完畢無異通過宣言無異通過宣言無異通過宣言"},{"start":8708.948,"end":8710.128,"text":"請問院會有無異議 沒有異議 通過下一項"},{"start":8736.044,"end":8757.415,"text":"三 委員王宏偉等你據 所得稅法第四十七條條文修正草案 凝交財政委員會審查 宣達你五 委員王宏偉等你據 金融機構和平法第十五條條文修正草案 凝交財政委員會審查 宣達你五 委員王宏偉等你據 衛生福利部組織法第二條決定五條條文修正草案 凝交司法及法制社會福利及衛生環境 兩委員會審查 宣達你五 委員王宏偉等你據 衛生福利部組織法第二條決定五條條文修正草案 凝交司法及法制社會福利及衛生"},{"start":8758.476,"end":8775.834,"text":"6 委員王侯維登領據衛生福利部首席照顧及社會發展署組織發財案你將司法及發生社會福利及衛生環境的兩位友會審查 宣言完畢7 委員王侯維登領據衛生福利部首席家庭支持署組織發財案你將司法及發生社會福利及衛生環境的兩位友會審查 宣言完畢"},{"start":8777.075,"end":8793.044,"text":"8.委員王宏偉等你具《勞動和健全法》第20條條文修正常案你將受惠福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣揚並委員通過下言9.委員侯孟海等你具《家庭暴力防治法》第30條之一及第31條條文修正常案你將受惠福利及衛生環境司法及法治兩委員會審查 宣揚並委員通過下言"},{"start":8794.945,"end":8814.745,"text":"委員王世堅等一句 防污控制水條例草案 擬交財經委員會審查 宣议完畢委員王世堅等一句 私立學校法定74條條文修正常案 擬交教育界文化委員會審查 宣议完畢委員徐曉新等一句 中華民國新法定77條條文修正常案 擬交司法及法制委員會審查 宣议完畢"},{"start":8815.646,"end":8843.799,"text":"十三 委員許曉新等一句衛生福利部兒童及家庭知識署組織法草案擬槍司法及法治社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查 宣布通過效應十四 委員許曉新等一句衛生福利部中央健康保險署組織法第二條條文修正草案擬槍司法及法治社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查 宣布通過效應十五 委員許曉新等一句衛生福利部長期照顧及社會發展署組織法草案擬槍司法及法治社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查 宣布通過效應"},{"start":8844.999,"end":8870.77,"text":"16.委員徐曉欣等你去衛生福利部組織法第2條第5條及第8條等我修正草案你將司法及法制社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查我議同我下案17.委員徐曉欣等你去國家醫療科技評估中心順勢條例草案你將司法及法制社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查我議同我下案18.委員徐曉欣等你去國家中醫研究院順勢條例草案你將司法及法制社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查我議同我下案"},{"start":8871.65,"end":8871.79,"text":"文議通過 效應"},{"start":8881.788,"end":8902.726,"text":"21 委員汪小林等你據中華民國新法30270條2條文草案 擬交司法及法制務員獲審查 宣言完畢21 委員汪小林等你據殘案人群自罪條例修正草案 擬交司法及法制務員獲審查 宣言完畢22 委員林楚瑩等你據國家安全法部門條文修正草案 擬交內政務員獲審查 宣言完畢21 委員汪小林等你據"},{"start":8903.527,"end":8932.387,"text":"二十三 委員六 現場的領據發展觀光條例曾內地六十六條十一條文章案擬交消防委員會審查 宣告閉二十四 委員牛 徐庭的領據發展觀光條例第二條第四十二條之一及第五十五條條文修正草案擬交消防委員會審查 宣告閉二十五 委員牛 徐庭的領據公正法第十三條條文修正草案擬交司法及法律委員會審查 宣告閉二十六 委員蘇翔會的領據都市經化法第四十二條及第四十六條條文修正草案擬交內政委員會審查"},{"start":8933.268,"end":8935.289,"text":"宣言完畢委員通過宣言委員通過宣言"},{"start":8951.46,"end":8971.637,"text":"二十九 委員馬文君等凝聚 教師法第25條條文修正草案 擬交修及文化委員會審查 宣傳並三十五 委員馬文君等凝聚 教師待遇條例第19條條文修正草案 擬交司法及法修及文化委員會審查 宣傳並三十一 委員范瑀等凝聚 平原地區學校將於發展條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":8972.157,"end":9001.201,"text":"禮教教育及文化委員會審查 宣讀完畢32 維護疫情等領據身心障礙者權益保障法部 臺灣修正草案禮教社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢33 國防部還未該部所屬114年度後勤期通知業務電費不足申請通知利率半金新台幣113億7463千元禮教外交及國防委員會 宣讀完畢34 農業部還未該部114年度運作農業管理向下經費不足"},{"start":9001.681,"end":9002.001,"text":"動議通過 宣揚動議通過"},{"start":9038.752,"end":9038.932,"text":"故意通過 小燕"},{"start":9056.091,"end":9056.672,"text":"五一通過宣言"},{"start":9072.268,"end":9087.514,"text":"三十八 行政委行委員農業部辦理因應非洲豬瘟之處於養豬政策調整輔導方案所需經費同時一百十四年度中央政府總預算第二倍金二零一二千八百萬元之印資檢送第二倍金動支出為七萬別票聯銷財政經濟兩委委員會宣布完畢"},{"start":9089.415,"end":9091.397,"text":"無疑通過 下議案無疑通過 下議案"},{"start":9115.918,"end":9136.287,"text":"40 邪教運行委員運動部補助雲林縣湖北高鐵運動園區 田徑場及暖身場興建工程經費通知114年度中央政府總預算第二倍金12億元之應此前送第二倍金動政署的機關評表年交財政教育界文化兩委員會宣言完畢41 邪教運行委員環境部環境管理署辦理因應非洲"},{"start":9136.747,"end":9138.828,"text":"無意通過宣揚無意通過宣揚"},{"start":9162.199,"end":9183.536,"text":"四十三 協進會修正國區生產及服務作業基金收支包括及應用辦法低調及低物調調溫 擬交外交及國防委員會宣言完畢四十四 協進會涵送一百十四年七月至十二月中央政府營業基金三億元以上及分營業特種基金一億元以上不辦預算或限期賣利數額表擬交經濟 交通 教育及文化三委員會宣言完畢"},{"start":9184.657,"end":9201.884,"text":"四十五 衔接委員會指地方建設 接近收拾保管及運用辦法 擬交財政委員會 宣言完畢四十六 衔接委員會為中華民國一百十三年六月十九日制定公佈之暫宣醫療法及暫宣醫療之際條例定自一百十五年一月一日實行 擬交社會福利計畫上環境委員會 宣言完畢"},{"start":9202.944,"end":9227.046,"text":"四十七 行政院修正管制要憑分級及品項 部分分級及品項 彼此114年12月8日生效 擬交社會福利及歐洲環境委員會 宣言完畢四十八 行政院司法院函授 少年輔導委員會處理曝險行為有關物品辦法 擬交司法企劃之委員會 宣言完畢四十九 內政部函送社會住宅租金分級收費原則 擬交內政委員會 宣言完畢"},{"start":9227.546,"end":9236.729,"text":"外医会第49案由台湾民众党团体改交审查本案交内政委员会审查下案无疑通过下案无疑通过下案无疑通过下案"},{"start":9255.914,"end":9277.927,"text":"五十三 農業部喊送軌道到出口應遵行事項 禮教經濟委員會 宣暖閉五十四 農業部修正維研宣調或監委維旺宣布太平洋作業管理辦法部分條文 禮教經濟委員會 宣暖閉五十五 農業部修正公告美國馮蒙特州自更名遠行交行流行性感冒飛去刪除 禮教經濟委員會 宣暖閉"},{"start":9279.048,"end":9295.753,"text":"五十六 農業部修正農業用地違規使用檢舉獎立法第二條條文你將經濟委員會宣傳並五十七 農業部韓赠我國與菲律賓簽署序程研究夥伴合作瞭解變化路英文 中文 日本 英文你將經濟外交警方兩委員會宣傳並"},{"start":9297.173,"end":9316.745,"text":"五十八 經濟部橫送漁船用引擎容許耗用能源計算及檢查方式 禮教經濟委員會 宣布完畢五十九 經濟部修正書片典業分離會計處理準則第一條及第三條條文 禮教經濟委員會 宣布完畢五十八 經濟部修正水災災害救助種類及標準第五條及第四條條文 禮教經濟委員會 宣布完畢"},{"start":9318.726,"end":9334.265,"text":"六十一 經濟部橫送經濟部丹娜斯颱風雨728豪雨災禍檢疫自然水設備及水利設施復原重新辦法離郊經濟委員會宣布完畢六十二 經濟部農業補廢止預算用引擎容許耗油能源標準及管理辦法離郊經濟委員會宣布完畢"},{"start":9336.047,"end":9358.709,"text":"六十三 公民教育委員會修正檢舉違法聯合行為獎金發放辦法第九條文 擬交經濟委員會 宣暖幣六十四 財政部修正促進民間參與公共建設法制重大公共建設範圍 擬交財政委員會 宣暖幣法院會第六十四案 臺灣民眾黨團體改交審查本案交財政委員會審查 下頁"},{"start":9359.54,"end":9378.482,"text":"六十五 財政部修正財政部所屬生產社經過人員退休 撫恤及資遣辦法第八條及第八條之一條文 禮教司法及法治財政兩委員會宣言完畢六十六 財政部修正財政部 台北國稅局單份局編制表等四項編制表並自一百十五年二月一日生效禮教司法及法治財政兩委員會宣言完畢"},{"start":9380.484,"end":9382.606,"text":"無意通過宣揚無意通過宣揚無意通過宣揚"},{"start":9409.244,"end":9424.819,"text":"七十一 教育部修正持國外專業上學歷申請教育幼兒園教保專業課程證明書本法 理教教育及文化委員會 宣暖幣七十一 教育部修正國家圖書館出賄成理教司法及法治教育及文化聯盟委員會 宣暖幣"},{"start":9426.861,"end":9449.851,"text":"七十二 文化部修正國立中正紀念堂管理處及成立及順序使用國費收費標準第二條檔案及第三條副表 尼加奧消息局文化委員會 宣言完畢七十三 國家科學及技術委員會 安送全國性科技事務財政法人使用財政法人法第21條第二項第三規案鎖定一定金額 尼加奧消息局文化委員會 宣言完畢"},{"start":9450.851,"end":9466.638,"text":"七十四 國家科學及基金委員會 環境部修正科學園區廢棄物 共同清除 處理及管理辦法第二條決定事條條文 禮教教育文化社會福利及外商環境兩委員會宣傳並七十五 交通部採用國際海事組織所屬海事安全委員會"},{"start":9467.378,"end":9490.35,"text":"第1064及第107次會議所採納AMS 11.520106AMS 11.5307及AMS 11.5307決議之海上人民安全國際公約修正案並修正相關戰術及其設備紀錄你交交通委員會 宣言完畢七十六 交通部修正車輛行駛安全審議管理辦法第十四條付表你交交通委員會 宣言完畢"},{"start":9491.531,"end":9511.888,"text":"七十七 交通部委員會停車場經營業個人資料等安全維護新化及處理辦法明確修正委停車場經營業個人資料等安全維護管理辦法並修正第六條條文自一百十五年一月一日實行 禮交交通委員會 宣布議題七十八 數位發展部涵送數位發展部數位發展專業獎賞頒給辦法 禮交交通委員會 宣布議題"},{"start":9513.789,"end":9540.316,"text":"七十九 考試院修正公務人員特審考試 公務人員考試規則第十條條文及第三條副表一 副表二 擬交司法及法治委員會 宣言完畢八十 考試院修正公務人員特審考試 移民行政委員考試規則第八條 第十一條條文及第三條副表一 第五條副表二 擬交司法及法治委員會 宣言完畢八十一 考試院修正 考試院編制表 擬交司法及法治委員會 宣言完畢"},{"start":9542.257,"end":9557.116,"text":"82 考試院行政院修正各機關職稱及官等職等員額配置準則 擬交司法及法徵委員會 宣布完畢83 考試院行政院修正各機關聚用醫師人員人身條例主義藍標 擬交司法及法徵委員會 宣布完畢"},{"start":9568.14,"end":9584.603,"text":"好 下一頁八十四 衛生福利不含售再訓醫療省營會組織及運作辦法的六項法規擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會 宣布完畢法院會八十四案國民黨團體改交審查本案交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下一頁"},{"start":9585.583,"end":9602.314,"text":"85 衛生福利部函宋 申請在訓醫療及看保護廣告審查費收費標準及在訓醫療技術及指定知識管理辦法第二條附表一看護表 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會 宣告完畢報告完畢 85 案 國民黨團體改交審查本案交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 下一案"},{"start":9603.391,"end":9617.083,"text":"86 衛生福利部函宋在訓療日及組織細胞提供者知情統一辦法擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢官員會86案 國民黨團體改交審查本案交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 下一案"},{"start":9617.557,"end":9633.045,"text":"八十七 衛生福利部函宋在訓練療養主席朝宴登記及許可審查準則你將社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳報應會八十七案國民黨團體改交審查本案將社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 下一案八十八 衛生福利部修正"},{"start":9634.085,"end":9661.094,"text":"農藥殘留 溶水量標準第三條副表1 第六條副表5及動物產品中農藥殘留 溶水量標準你將社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣言完畢八十九 衛生福利部函宋再生醫療細胞操作管理辦法再生醫療細胞保存戶甚至許可管理辦法及再生醫療技術組織細胞提供者核實性判定辦法你將社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣言完畢報案院會八十九案國民黨團體改交審查本案"},{"start":9661.789,"end":9683.829,"text":"交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 下一案90 衛生福利部修正水平添加物櫃檢驗方法附錄B是要順眼的你交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣言完畢 下一案91 環境部函掃水中總有積碳檢測方法燃燒紅外觀測定法你交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣言完畢 下一案"},{"start":9685.049,"end":9692.992,"text":"90.環境不廢止 水中總有機等檢測方法 燃燒火萬線測定法 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會 宣傳並90."},{"start":9692.992,"end":9693.453,"text":"吳亦東國校園90."},{"start":9693.453,"end":9693.613,"text":"吳亦東國校園90."},{"start":9693.613,"end":9697.154,"text":"環境不廢止 排放管道裝扮 揮發性有機物檢測方法"},{"start":9707.538,"end":9708.319,"text":"審議通告下議案法院會95 案"},{"start":9726.207,"end":9754.785,"text":"國民黨團體改交審查 本案交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 下議案96 勞動部修正勞動部編制表 擬交司法及法制社會福利及衛生環境委員會 宣布完畢無疑通過 下議案97 勞動部修正就業保險法 稅性細則部分條文 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會 宣布完畢無疑通過 下議案98 勞動部涵送勞動部勞工保險局 判了115年勞工保險被保險人員疏困貸款 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會 宣布完畢無疑通過 下議"},{"start":9755.245,"end":9757.368,"text":"本案交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 下一項"},{"start":9768.985,"end":9793.119,"text":"100 勞動務修正 因應國際情勢 支持勞工安定就業本法第四條 即第二十條條文 領交社會福利及衛生環境委員會 宣讀完畢101 通過下議案101 國家科學及技術委員會 涵送114 年國防科技產業推動現況書面報告 領交消息及文化委員會 宣讀完畢101 通過下議案102 國家通訊傳播委員會 涵送113 年通訊傳播績效報告 領交交通委員會 宣讀完畢101 通過下議案"},{"start":9793.519,"end":9796.12,"text":"法院會本案 臺灣民眾黨團體改交審查本案交內政委員會審查法院會第105案"},{"start":9821.601,"end":9829.808,"text":"到193我們會依序宣讀其中105 106 141 719123 124 126 127 136-139142 143 150案台灣民眾黨團體改交審查第114 118國民黨團體改交審查宣讀之後以上提案均改交相關委會審查區議案均照議事處意見通過請問院會有無異議面議宣讀後通過請宣讀"},{"start":9851.704,"end":9878.964,"text":"第105案 決定90案為大陸委員會 客家委員會 海洋委員會 力選部 國防部 外交部 經濟 國家發展委員會 農業部 財政部 文化部 國家科學及技術委員會 教育部 消動部 數位發展部 行政院 公共工程委員會 武漢東區傳播委員會 司法院 防護部 衛生 福利部 環境部 捍衛 更年度 相同預算114年度中央政府足算追加預算中央政府擔當時態崩擊728豪雨 災後復原重建特別預算"},{"start":9879.444,"end":9885.696,"text":"中央政府因應國際形勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算等預算決議分別簡訊相關報告宣讀完畢"},{"start":9892.406,"end":9917.561,"text":"第一九議案為本院財政委員會函為院會交付審查相關行政命令已於立法院執行《刑事法》第六十一條鎖定審查期限第一九二案之底二零三案為本院司法及法庭委員會報告審查相關人民團體情願案請審查結果均勿成為議案案宣讀完畢好 瓜園會我們開始處理國民黨團體共議案請議事人員宣讀題內容"},{"start":9919.864,"end":9924.467,"text":"我們依照黨團共識本案照案通過我們現在進行處理討論事項第一案本院國民黨團 臺灣民眾黨團共同提案"},{"start":9947.406,"end":9966.29,"text":"建請院會作成決議115年度總預算案中具有急迫性及攸關重大民生之新興資本支出及新增計畫本院同意先行予以動之請公決案請議事人員宣讀提案內容"},{"start":9967.301,"end":9995.246,"text":"北約國民黨黨團 臺灣民眾黨黨團有限於國際風雲詭矩兩岸兵兇佔為20年度中央政府總人選案行政院卻惡意違法拘捕編列以生命保家衛國的志願與軍人加薪及警消退休金替代率提高之預算不但至今未提出其他可行之替代方式甚至以各種迴憲亂政的手法企圖閹割多數民意頻頻散佈不實言論造成社會對立時不足矩"},{"start":9995.786,"end":10020.78,"text":"我國預算程序有不關門機制的設計依預算法第五十四條定有明文原進行又會作成權益一百十五年度總預算人中具有急迫性及攸關重大民生之新興資本支出及新生計畫如附件本院同意先行予以動之必以補救行政院待遇推動政務消極不作為之行徑影響國際民生是否有當請公決案宣讀完畢"},{"start":10021.3,"end":10046.219,"text":"法院會依照立法院執行新司法第八條第三項規定本案經提案人說明提案子去大體討論之後我們即議決交付審查或禁付二讀或不予審議法院會依照黨團共識本案提案就不再說明我們現在進行大體討論依照黨團共識請各黨團推派代表發言首先請張祺凱委員發言鍾嘉斌委員請準備"},{"start":10068.547,"end":10086.728,"text":"民進黨立委一直在提醒說攸關大家行的安全 交通安全跟便利的TPAS要趕快過今天民眾黨跟國民黨提出優先來處理 趕快放行我們要提醒上個月"},{"start":10088.902,"end":10110.151,"text":"在討論行政院砍了地方的補助款包括血統的營養午餐治水的預算民進黨黨議大議民意民進黨絕大部分的立法委員投票的結果是贊成砍地方補助款今天"},{"start":10112.352,"end":10116.427,"text":"在野黨提出依照預算法第54條也就是"},{"start":10119.502,"end":10147.885,"text":"不關門的這個機制我們對於新興的這個計畫可以先經過立法院會通過以後馬上放行包括TPAS行政院通勤業票的執行計畫還有公保生意給付差額的補助2.35億還有河川整治跟排水的整體改善計畫還有攸關國防安全的"},{"start":10148.806,"end":10175.337,"text":"AS365N海豚型機隊的升級中程計畫等一下請大家注意看民進黨的立委是不是又是黨議大移民議不通過TPAS的預算不通過防洪治水的預算不通過國防安全的預算另外賴清德總統說要趕快審總預算要慎應廣大的民意"},{"start":10178.922,"end":10186.01,"text":"台灣民眾黨最近做了一個大型的民調結果發現 問說你支不支持"},{"start":10187.341,"end":10212.962,"text":"行政部門應該趕快編足立法院通過的金人加薪跟警消的所得替代率提高高達67.6%的民眾都是贊成的反對只有18%進一步問如果不趕快補足是不是就先不要審結果51比37絕大部分的民眾也認為行政要趕快把它編足事實上"},{"start":10214.123,"end":10238.154,"text":"這個也是去年的解決方案去年經過朝野協商行政院長卓榮泰說趕快把該編的編族去年就解開了解零還需細零人所以請行政院趕快編族該編的預算金人的加薪景銷所得替代率這是一個治本的方法去年成功了那治標的方法就今天在野黨所提出來的"},{"start":10238.934,"end":10264.219,"text":"我們啟動不關門條款我們先讓新的計畫 包括剛剛提的跟民生經濟有關的讓他先行通過 等下進行表決請民進黨不要再黨議大於民意也不要罷免好 謝謝張祺凱委員的發言接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言傅坤祺委員請準備"},{"start":10273.871,"end":10298.414,"text":"主席在場委員先進中華民國行縣史來首次有立法院要處理根據預設法第54條當新興計畫因為能審議完均 使得動資受到限制的時候要提經立法院同意後來動資今天我們很好奇的是三個問題"},{"start":10300.837,"end":10314.926,"text":"國民黨跟民眾黨所列的這718億他們認為重大 急迫攸關民生我們要問的不是它是否重大我們要問的是2992億的另外2274億的新興"},{"start":10322.35,"end":10348.777,"text":"資本計畫哪一項不重要哪一項不急迫哪一項不攸關民生請國眾兩黨告訴人民除了這718億之外其他的2200多億哪一項不重要哪一項不攸關民生哪一項不急迫第二我們要請教國眾兩黨那麼你如何知道這些急迫"},{"start":10349.69,"end":10376.739,"text":"因為總預算根本會交付審議你怎麼區別2991當中這718億特別重要特別急迫特別攸關民生你們是看項目嗎如果你們看項目就可以做出判斷了我們要問第三個問題既然你有能力已經判斷預算當中的優先款級數額多寡你為什麼不審議"},{"start":10378.632,"end":10396.527,"text":"目前115年度的中央政府總預算由於藍白的抵制跟杯葛遲遲未能交付審議不能符合預算法51條的規定因此根據54條這些新興資本計劃必須等立法院完成審議後始得動之"},{"start":10398.653,"end":10421.622,"text":"這個就是我們憲法規定的精神立法院是踩煞車 行政院是加油門預算編制權在行政院 立法院只能審議 只能踩油門因為憲法其實要寫立法院對行政院所提預算案不得為增加支出之提議很清楚 一個是油門 一個是煞車今天你們說 張祺凱說解鈴還需細鈴人 我說錯"},{"start":10425.376,"end":10450.719,"text":"今天你們是白蛇跟許仙一方面放毒讓我們重要的2992億攸關人民名聲重大急迫的不能夠完成審訊進行執行而你們要當許仙要當好人要說我把你這718億先行放行你叫其他2200多億影響的人民情何以堪啊"},{"start":10451.44,"end":10469.066,"text":"人民要像乞丐一樣我718億我敲碗了你才給我我另外2200億我不敲碗好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員的發言接下來我們請富坤崎委員發言王逸川委員請準備"},{"start":10493.123,"end":10521.192,"text":"院長 立法院各位同仁全國的各位鄉親當全世界兵兇戰危烽火連天 戰爭疊起的此刻我們為了防衛台灣國會正式通過讓所有的軍人能夠加薪而不是領得三萬五千塊的職業軍人要養家活口還要上戰場"},{"start":10522.608,"end":10537.58,"text":"要讓所有的景銷能夠維護我們社會的安定跟秩序必須能夠有完整的退休計畫國會也通過了相關的這些法案但是很遺憾的"},{"start":10538.717,"end":10557.434,"text":"我們賴政府對這一次一百一十五年的總預算都沒有把防衛台灣最關鍵的力量這些預算把它編進來本身是一個違法的預算但是綁架的卻是全台灣的人民"},{"start":10558.516,"end":10576.279,"text":"人民受苦是我們大家應該要如何思考大家平心靜氣放下彼此的成見我們必須好好的來顧民生來拼經濟今天由國民黨團"},{"start":10577.34,"end":10596.786,"text":"跟民眾黨團非常負責任的所提出的行政院38項新興計畫裡面攸關民生非常迫切的這些相關的預算把它正式抽出依照預算法的54條來交付國會來公決對於北台灣 中台灣這些基層"},{"start":10605.705,"end":10629.097,"text":"奮鬥的百姓TPAS重不重要我們是不是應該要立刻來給他來進行還有生育補助每胎10萬育兒津貼還有育嬰照顧相關的計畫學校整建橋樑修復人才培育產業創生河川治水以及排水整體改善"},{"start":10629.977,"end":10658.077,"text":"還有在整體的醫療科技的推動計畫台單品牌散市的相關的運動計畫偏鄉通訊網路數位的韌性計畫各縣市財政均衡補助一般性補助的320億很重要的還有高雄屏東要不要東西向的快速道路我想今天大家應該以民生為本"},{"start":10658.817,"end":10685.464,"text":"不要再把政黨意識放在人民之上我們大家盡快的依照預算法依照國會可以究竟的方式把所有的新興計畫尤其最重要38項盡快通過希望大家同心協力來一起支持臺灣謝謝謝謝富坤請委員發言接下來我們請王逸川委員發言王紅薇委員請準備"},{"start":10698.616,"end":10721.411,"text":"好 多少主席 剛才國民黨的這個暴君旗 宗教啊 說得不錯 說得不錯 我很快把他餓了 他說要民生為重要啦齁我當作他 長命吃魚 要吃到現在煩盡了他剩下這麼多 你已經七八幾億出來當他 你國民黨是怎麼空空的"},{"start":10725.543,"end":10750.093,"text":"你覺得你們保固期在唸的時候啊唸成這樣嘀嘀吐吐,他可能也不知道你在唸什麼你不知道你們腦袋有多少呢?你們腦袋兩千多億,兩千多億裡面...欸!我今天跟你講一個T-Bus,你就小小的唸T-Bus我跟你講滴水,你就講滴水學人精,裡面還有很多我們還沒唸的我不能現在跟你說喔我們這兩天如果還有唸對幾條出來,你不可能再對喔"},{"start":10755.034,"end":10779.365,"text":"因為你現在一位這幾條最重要 其他都沒重要沒人情啦 沒人情 你看他也沒要心意上啊對他經來經去 講經這幾個 還搞不清楚對幾條叫做民生相關今天你啦 你今天在退出的這裡 台灣人都看得到你這位最重要"},{"start":10780.578,"end":10795.765,"text":"還有咕嚕跳的醫生你們都不想信國防的醫生不想信特別的條例不想信你們的黨主席給我關心一件事說喔 台灣叫美國人給我講15%啊不叫中國一樣創一個40幾%來看看"},{"start":10800.083,"end":10822.984,"text":"可憐 喔 你們董主席 要衝衝那麼高的今天15% 這樣你們有開心嗎 還是你們今天還要出來賣今天去通過這個 我要說 通過這個代表什麼代表你們選擇性啦 剛才副主席說喔說這個愛 過路到明星 堆一條不是明星 你說"},{"start":10824.341,"end":10850.692,"text":"國民黨你現在公開講 後面還有黃宏偉叫黃孟楷 你們說你今天沒有來世新計畫 2000多億對一條不是民生重要的 拿出來講拿出來講 指名道姓 看對一條 要保守對 要做對 堅實的不是民生需要的後面還有黃宏偉叫黃孟楷 你們兩個起來講看看講到這700多重要 其他2000多人都沒有重要"},{"start":10854.013,"end":10875.232,"text":"讓我們聽聽看 讓台灣人民了解說原來你們國民黨 叫這個民眾黨 投降了就對了現在全台灣 今天說的這七八幾億是重要的其他一點也都不重要你不可以空空的 這幾天喔 每天又說對幾條重要不可以到時候還唱韓國的 說韓國的啊不然還加五條 加十條 這樣就漏氣死了"},{"start":10881.482,"end":10887.909,"text":"好 謝謝王逸川委員的發言接下來我們請王洪威委員發言吳思瑤委員請準備"},{"start":10905.182,"end":10934.171,"text":"好 主席還有各位同仁今天我們特別提到的就是有關於一些我們新興的計劃那屬於有急迫性以及民生性的預算我們把它提出來眾所皆知現在中央政府總預算的困境就是在於現在行政院違法不編列對於我們軍人以及退休警消的預算"},{"start":10935.331,"end":10951.634,"text":"剛才鍾嘉斌委員說人民好像乞丐一樣要敲碗才有急迫性但是我的質疑是我們現在我們的軍人我們的警消對於民進黨來說是連乞丐都不如啊"},{"start":10953.31,"end":10979.055,"text":"當他們敲碗當他們希望能夠編列應該法定預算的時候可是民進黨政府不聞不問所以在這邊為什麼中央政府總預算遇到這樣的僵局民進黨政府賴清德總統卓榮泰院長要負起百分之百的責任"},{"start":10979.895,"end":11007.718,"text":"但是在这边我们也看到一些新兴的计划里面跟民生相关还有它有急迫性的譬如说t pass譬如说生育补助以及治水预算以及对地方政府的补助的部分我们在这边我们希望在合法合于预算法的规定之下我们先行做处理"},{"start":11008.659,"end":11033.46,"text":"這是作為我們在野黨我們負責任的願意去解決現在預算的僵局這樣的態度才是正確的態度如果例如像剛才王逸川委員在這邊指揮提高聲量來問在野黨我想請問一下現在到底誰在執政"},{"start":11034.241,"end":11062.074,"text":"我想請問一下現在誰在當總統誰在當行政院長如果你們執政如此無能如果你們執政沒有辦法解決民生的問題如果你們執政不能夠回應人民的需要的時候那麼當然我們在野黨願意負起責任所以這不叫做為德不足"},{"start":11062.634,"end":11089.527,"text":"因為這是我們面對現在所有人民所需要的問題我們負責任的去解決問題所以在這邊我要跟全體的國民來報告我也要再一次的為我們的軍人跟我們的警消請命當我們看到花蓮外海我們的F16V的我們的飛官的"},{"start":11097.388,"end":11101.658,"text":"謝謝王宏威委員的發言接下來我們請吳思瑤委員發言 侯孟愷委員請準備"},{"start":11109.342,"end":11127.87,"text":"主席各位同仁我先講兩個程序的問題剛剛大家手上拿到的這一份提案38項藍白精挑細選卻掛一漏萬的所謂急迫性預算不過是15分鐘前才發到大家的手上"},{"start":11128.59,"end":11152.463,"text":"再一次的最後一刻突襲黑箱這種表決前才把資料拿給大家我們在台下手忙腳亂拿著計算機來算到底是幾項才知道是38項718億備放刑要審查這就是這一屆的立法院突襲黑箱又來了"},{"start":11153.163,"end":11180.223,"text":"第二個程序的問題我們當立委這麼久了任何一個議案不管是法案或是預算案要經過附委的程序在進行內容的審查怎麼會總預算案現在還沒有完成附委的程序你可以在裡面挑三減四挑出你想吃的這麼挑食你以為審總預算是自助餐嗎"},{"start":11181.804,"end":11185.546,"text":"或是你以為審總預算是贖罪卷被罵什麼才審什麼我舉個簡單的例子現在我們的國防軍購特別條例一樣被冷凍在程序委員會沒有辦法覆委我們可以說這個軍購特別條例七個條文沒有辦法覆委審查然後在野黨提一個一條兩條的條文來通過嗎"},{"start":11209.841,"end":11236.947,"text":"一大包的預算還沒付尾一大案的法案還沒付尾你們可以這樣拆解預算可以這樣來拆解法案我真的要說718億被放刑講得好像你們做功德好棒棒事實上在野黨是為自己的擺爛自己當薪水小偷找台階下"},{"start":11241.53,"end":11252.16,"text":"這38項718億是什麼概念我告訴大家黃國昌不在場可能去當薪水小偷了他最愛說的薄薄兩三頁就是這樣來的38項718億薄薄兩三頁最後一刻黑箱提出就是這樣"},{"start":11264.81,"end":11273.832,"text":"718億今天要所謂放行審查的概念又是什麼只佔所有新興急迫2992億預算的24%換言之你們丟包了另外76%3的急迫預算你們都不審"},{"start":11286.795,"end":11293.92,"text":"而總預算是一大包該審查的是三兆的預算今天只審查七百謝謝"},{"start":11317.571,"end":11337.703,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝吳斯堯委員的發言 謝謝接下來我們請登記最後一位第七號洪孟凱文 請發言"},{"start":11346.971,"end":11362.243,"text":"時間暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停暫停�"},{"start":11375.472,"end":11402.941,"text":"感謝主席各位同仁媒體朋友們剛剛有民進黨的代表講是說這是首次中華民國有史以來我們用預算法第54條來做一個審查但我們更要講今年因為是首次行政院沒有依照三讀通過來編列相關的預算送進來違法的預算你要我們怎麼違法審查"},{"start":11403.661,"end":11419.689,"text":"如果要講丟包的話我們更要說今天在場無論朝野黨團113席立法委員應該共同一致譴責行政院行政院丟包年度總預算因為你們沒有依法編列就是這麼簡單"},{"start":11423.652,"end":11445.078,"text":"我們要的是審查總預算但是總預算要依法送進立法院沒有依法送進立法院要我們怎麼審查我們更要講當行政部門執政黨的委員口口聲聲講說要支持軍人支持國防的時候為什麼軍人加薪沒有幫軍人爭取"},{"start":11447.511,"end":11475.154,"text":"當執政黨的委員口口聲聲講說要照顧軍警消公教人員的時候當我們通過的三讀法案為什麼遲遲沒有辦法編列今年的年度總預算高達三兆又是死賬最高高達三兆死賬最高的預算居然把我們軍警公教消等相關人員的預算全部都沒有放進去我們沒有辦法接受"},{"start":11475.794,"end":11497.483,"text":"但我們要說的是面對行政院的帶弱跟違法在野黨團不會盲目的選擇對抗而是我們還要站在國家發展的角度因此我們才會提出我們要解決問題運用預算法第54條拿出新計劃裡面民生相關的法案來交付協商"},{"start":11498.223,"end":11522.637,"text":"其中包括少子化對策其中包括交通正義的部分Tpass以及相關安全防護還有醫療體育這些計畫我們不會因為行政院違法編列受阻而是國民黨團民眾黨團希望在本會期能夠完成刪讀讓利民法案能夠如期上路再次強調一點"},{"start":11524.332,"end":11550.082,"text":"依法行政是一個法治國家最基本的義務但絕對不是拿來當成逃避監督的藉口所以在野黨監督政府天經地義這是憲法賦予的職責我們今天的提案完全合法合憲合理更要求行政院補足違法預算的缺口而且要加速民生預算的進行再次強調"},{"start":11552.41,"end":11567.14,"text":"違法編列我們無法違法審查依法編列即刻審查這是我們始終為國為民的謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員的發言"},{"start":11589.892,"end":11617.751,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝謝謝好 報告院會我們要進行處理拜託大家遵守下一場次序拜託大家 祝福大家馬上幸福我們現在開始處理 好不好現在有國民黨團 臺灣民眾黨團提議本案禁覆二讀請問院會"},{"start":11620.154,"end":11638.747,"text":"有異議有異議我們要進行表決贊成國民黨團 台灣民眾黨團第一禁服二讀現在有民進黨團要求記名表決贊成 請按贊成 反對按反對時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":11711.556,"end":11737.468,"text":"報應會報告表決結果在場委員出席108位贊成58位反對49位棄權1位贊成者多數國民黨團 臺灣民眾黨團提議照案通過決議 禁覆二讀報應會現在有本院 傅坤祺委員等黃國昌委員等"},{"start":11741.26,"end":11767.681,"text":"針對方才禁賦二讀之決議提出複議並請院會隨即進行表決處理辦委會我們現在進行本件複議案現在進行表決針對傅坤祺委員等黃國昌委員等所提複議案現在有民進黨團要求記名表決我們開始記名表決贊成 暗贊成反對 暗反對時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":11838.763,"end":11854.629,"text":"辦院會報告表決結果 在場出席為 108 位贊成 49 位 反對 59 位 贊成則少數 敷衍不通過依據立法院職權新釋法第 74 條之一規定交付黨團協商我們現在做一下決議"},{"start":11855.609,"end":11872.223,"text":"交付黨團協商並由國民黨團 臺灣民眾黨團共同負責召集協商歡迎會謝一鳳委員發表聲明對剛才表決與國民黨團意見一致我們列入公報記錄現在討論事項第二案本院國民黨團 臺灣民眾黨團分別提案"},{"start":11873.905,"end":11902.728,"text":"建情院會作成決議邀請賴清德總統赴立法院就《攸關國家安全之重大國安事項及天價軍購》提出國情報告並接受委員諮詢 請公決案本案經第四會期第三次會議決議交付黨團協商並由國民黨團 臺灣民眾黨團共同負責召集協商抱怨會依照黨團共識我們做以下決定"},{"start":11904.076,"end":11928.785,"text":"定期處理我們進入討論事項第三案本院民進黨團針對第十一屆第四會期第十六次會議報告事項第119案院會所做決定提出復議請公決案本案經第四會期第十七次會議決議令定期處理我們現在進行處理報告委員會依照黨團共識我們不再發言現在針對民進黨黨團所提復議案進行表決"},{"start":11933.359,"end":11938.177,"text":"我們現在有民進黨團要求記名表決贊成民進黨團"},{"start":11970.613,"end":11971.774,"text":"謝謝 請回座 我們準備表決"},{"start":11995.455,"end":12012.081,"text":"好 謝謝我們要進行針對民進黨所提的復議案我們要進行表決民進黨團要求記名表決我們開始進行記名表決贊成 按贊成反對 按反對時間一分鐘 現在開始"},{"start":12085.967,"end":12113.697,"text":"好 謝謝請回座 謝謝報告表決結果出席108位贊成49位反對59位贊成者少數我們做以下決議附議案不通過本案報告事項照原作決定通過現在我們進入討論事項第四案國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案本案經第四會期第十七次會議決議另定期處理"},{"start":12116.584,"end":12127.378,"text":"抱怨會本案已經完成協商請宣讀協商結論立法院黨團協商結論事件115年1月13日星期二上午9時30分地點紅樓302會議室"},{"start":12130.825,"end":12154.174,"text":"其當主題國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案相結論一 第三條保留送院會進行處理二 本院院會處理時廣泛討論由各黨團各推派一人發言逐條討論及完成三讀後軍部發言逐條十一黨團版本先後進行表決主持人韓國瑜將啟程"},{"start":12155.532,"end":12183.075,"text":"協商代表羅志強 林佩祥 傅君綺 柯建銘 鍾嘉斌陳培 張綺楷 陳昭芝 黃國昌宣讀完畢請問院會對以上協商結論有無異議沒有異議本案後續就依照協商結論進行處理歡迎院會我們現在進行廣泛討論請各黨團推派代表發言首先請鍾嘉斌委員發言羅志強委員請準備"},{"start":12192.219,"end":12205.662,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進尤其是待會要來發言的羅志強委員我們來看一看這個《眷改條例》個案立法特快車這個案子難道有關十人八村嗎"},{"start":12207.128,"end":12234.066,"text":"大法官有夠解釋國家對於有限資源的分配不能只照顧特定族群必須要考量一般國民的感受我們來看一看待會羅惠媛對本案還有國眾兩黨背書的捐款條例有何感受這個案子在去年4月交付審查外交國防一次審查然後到年底就抽出禁錮二讀年底完成了"},{"start":12235.649,"end":12256.913,"text":"黨團協商就在前天院長主持朝野協商今天就要交付表決這是什麼案子這麼急迫可能有人會說這個沒有啦這才50個人拖了十幾年持來的正義我們來告訴大家什麼叫做正義當年的眷改條例造成的結果國債目前國庫還要負責將近2000億的短處虧損"},{"start":12262.264,"end":12287.813,"text":"而民國85年捐改條例通過之後當時落成僅7年78年的慈仁八村居然被列入了要改善的老舊眷村天啊慈仁八村78年落成距離85年只有7年的時間居然列入要改建的老舊眷村這不是弊案 什麼是弊案果然99年結果檢舉100年"},{"start":12290.574,"end":12297.791,"text":"偵查終結國防部撤銷成人八村不得享有眷村改建的資格"},{"start":12299.198,"end":12326.739,"text":"眷戶持續的進行行政訴訟104年上述駁回判決確定而且兩度遭到大法官不予受理事件因此到了105年政黨輪替前夕行政院由林鄭哲政務委員召集1月5號完成協調由國防部提案結果就在5月11號5月11號就送到立法院來"},{"start":12328.271,"end":12339.636,"text":"隔個下個月行政院改組行政院撤回案子這是什麼案子這不是救濟案這是特權案這是弊案"},{"start":12340.629,"end":12358.174,"text":"而且羅志強委員的修法把69年12月30日拿掉之後現在當年85年依眷改條例新建完成的眷舍都有可能援引慈仁八村的例子"},{"start":12358.934,"end":12386.682,"text":"要求包括像羅志強委員國民黨民眾黨不顧社會公平政策委員個案修法貪圖個人的私利破壞人民的居住正義我們在這裡要提醒社會記住這一天這一天有國眾兩黨違反好謝謝鍾嘉賓委員的發言接下來我們請羅志強委員發言陳昭志委員請準備"},{"start":12408.379,"end":12410.2,"text":"民進黨就是造謠黨"},{"start":12412.402,"end":12430.378,"text":"國防部打臉你 圈改條例修法只是用50戶民進黨還在繼續造謠國防部打臉你 這50戶是遷移不是改建民進黨還繼續造謠"},{"start":12433.978,"end":12452.734,"text":"國防部打臉你政府因為只是遷移沒有改建不會多花一毛錢民進黨還打個標語說國庫損失上千億民進黨是窮到只是想說謊嗎民進黨是多麼可惡的政黨我告訴大家"},{"start":12453.959,"end":12478.498,"text":"今天眷改條例當時適用的慈仁八村就是因為國防部書師被丟包的最後一個眷村啦我們經過兩年的協商國防部包括民進黨當時協商的委員都說國防部的書師不該由慈仁八村的眷戶來背"},{"start":12480.6,"end":12508.239,"text":"應該要解決這個歷史工業問題所以我們不斷跟國防部磋商但國防部告訴大家因為眷改條例的範圍年期他漏包了丟包了十人八村所以把眷村的那個期限拉開以後可以解決最後一戶五十戶眷戶的遷移問題不是改建問題"},{"start":12509.68,"end":12529.166,"text":"那我要告訴民進黨不只是說謊黨它還是個擺爛黨本來協商民進黨都說要解決問題到最後一次韓院長主持的時候翻供啦我們的柯建民總召跟他講我們民進黨沒有要解決問題我告訴大家民進黨不解決問題造成什麼問題你知道嗎"},{"start":12530.307,"end":12545.993,"text":"由於15年前就已經蓋好的萬榮新社讓慈仁八村50臥親過去你民進黨擺爛10年結果呢萬榮新社空在那裡養蚊子15年每年花1200萬維護費過去15年花了快2億未來30年還要再花3億"},{"start":12552.148,"end":12577.656,"text":"民進黨擺爛在虧空國庫他不在乎嘛第二個國防部要把慈仁八村縣子現在民眾不堪居住的地方整修成植物宿舍15年來沒辦法整修被審計部糾正政府擺爛每年花1200萬還讓植物宿舍沒辦法進行還讓萬榮新社繼續破舊下去可能毀壞"},{"start":12579.376,"end":12602.786,"text":"羅志強負責任的解決問題解決這個歷史工業彌平國庫的虧損活用國家資產民進黨你擺爛在幹什麼你擺爛羅志強解決謝謝謝謝羅志強委員的發言接下來我們請登記最後一位第三號陳昭之委員請發言"},{"start":12611.36,"end":12640.188,"text":"主席各位同事推動修法國軍老舊眷村改建條例是在解決歷史的工業而且還是政府跟國防部的疏失造成的歷史工業這個修法的方向實在是回應現行的法治因為年代劃分過於僵化導致部分實際老舊無法居住條件不佳的這個眷村長期沒有辦法透過制度性的途徑來解決現實的一個困境"},{"start":12641.766,"end":12671.486,"text":"那麼我要說的是國防部花了5億然後為此人八尊蓋了新眷舍閒置到今天15年那開銷沒有辦法認定每年還要花1200萬去維護管理已經被審計部糾正了然後此人八尊眷戶的權益也因為政府的疏失而被犧牲了我再說一次是政府自己的疏失造成這些對財務的黑洞跟不公平的對待"},{"start":12672.386,"end":12692.095,"text":"這個眷顧所以推動修法基本上是幫政府在做解套是幫政府解決疏失所帶來的問題可以創造市營解決供應第一每年可以填平每年1200萬的管理費用可以活用資產讓新捐贈不再是五人子營"},{"start":12693.275,"end":12719.281,"text":"讓慈仁八孫縣市可以釋出更多的植物宿舍最後若慈仁八孫眷屋他們要搬還要負擔部分的經費反過來可以來挹注這個國庫台灣民眾黨一向是本於以人民為本重視居住爭議的立場認為法律的制度本來就應該隨著社會條件跟實際的需求而調整而不是讓過時的規範成為行政怠惰或問題延宕的藉口"},{"start":12720.081,"end":12742.731,"text":"將行政機關面對既有的這個眷村居住安全管理效能還有資源運用的問題卻因為法令的限制沒有辦法提出可行的方案透過立法修正來排除居住單案這是立法應有的責任本期再次強調這個修法不是擴張到全部的眷居範圍而是針對特定的歷史問題必要的調整"},{"start":12743.751,"end":12770.237,"text":"實務上確實有需要的眷屋得以解決長年居住的困境為了避免公共資源持續的閒置跟浪費文化既有的安置設施我們民眾黨支持羅志強委員這樣的提案謝謝好 謝謝陳昭之委員的歡迎歡迎會我們開始進行逐條討論請宣讀國民黨團版本之羅志強委員等提案第三條"},{"start":12771.414,"end":12786.22,"text":"第三條本條例所稱國軍老舊住院村指本條例公佈是先前完成之軍劵住宅且有改建制必要並具有下列各款情形之一一 政府興建分配者二 中華婦女反共聯合會"},{"start":12787,"end":12805.383,"text":"捐款興建者三 政府提供土地由鑽戶自費興建者四 其他經營主管機關認定者本條例所稱原鑽戶系指領有主管機關或其所屬權責機關合法之國軍鑽設居住憑證或公文書之國軍老舊鑽村住戶宣讀完畢"},{"start":12806.96,"end":12819.764,"text":"我們現在進行表決羅志強委員等提案條文現在有民進黨團要求記名表決我們開始記名表決時間一分鐘贊成羅志強委員等提案 請按贊成反對 請按反對現在開始"},{"start":12833.808,"end":12834.932,"text":"國父至上千億"},{"start":12896.228,"end":12910.441,"text":"報告表決結果 出席108位 贊成59位 反對49位 贊成者多數第三條 照羅志強委員等提案通過報告表決結果 出席108位 贊成59位 反對49位 贊成者多數第三條 照羅志強委員等提案通過報告表決結果 出席108位 贊成59位 反對49位 贊成者多數第三條 照羅志強委員等提案通過"},{"start":12918.089,"end":12943.736,"text":"第三條本條例所稱國軍老舊眷村指本條例公佈事行前興建完成之軍眷住宅且有改建之必要並具有下列個款情形之一一 政府興建分配者二 中華婦女反共聯合會捐款興建者三 政府提供土地由眷戶自費興建者四 其他經營主管機關認定者本條例所稱原眷戶細致領有主管機關或其所屬權責機關合法之國軍"},{"start":12945.777,"end":12967.185,"text":"捐赦居住凭证或公文述职国军老旧眷村住户宣读完毕我们三读条文已经宣读完毕请愿会有文字修正并文字修正我们做以下决议国军老旧眷村改建条例第三条条文修正通过"},{"start":12972.648,"end":12986.033,"text":"我們現在進入討論事項第五案公共電視法第十六條及第四十九條條文修正草案本案經第四會期第十七次會議決議另訂其處理抱怨會 本案已經完成協商請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":12987.808,"end":13002.935,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論時間115年1月13日星期二上午9時30分地點立法院紅樓302會議室相主題公共電視法第16條及第49條條文修正查案"},{"start":13003.715,"end":13032.775,"text":"行政結論一 保留條文送請院會處理第16條二 不予修正維持現行條文第49條三 本院院會進行處理時廣泛討論由各黨團各推派一人發言逐條討論及三讀完成後均不發言逐條時保留條文依黨團版本先後進行表決四 本案各項提議均列入公報紀錄主持人韓國瑜江啟臣相代表羅志強 林沛翔"},{"start":13033.374,"end":13055.185,"text":"復婚期科見民眾嘉賓陳培宜 張綺凱 陳昭芝 黃國昌宣讀完畢請問議會對以上詞語協商有無異議沒有異議的話我們後續依照協商結論進行處理我們現在進行廣泛討論請各黨派推派的代表進行發言首先請羅志強委員發言 劉淑冰委員請準備"},{"start":13063.53,"end":13090.565,"text":"今天非常巧兩個法律都是因為民進黨擺爛造成的民進黨就是個徹頭徹尾的擺爛黨所以剛剛前面的捲改條例在擺爛之外別人解決問題他還在造謠現在公示法也是在擺爛為什麼呢我告訴各位公示法第七屆董監事三年任期在去年5月19日屆滿"},{"start":13091.874,"end":13115.559,"text":"依照公事法規定文化部應該要在前年的11月底就提新一屆的董監事名單完成改併可是文化部一路擺爛一路讓公事的董監事無限延任他暫時的依據是什麼就是現在的公事法有萬年延任條款"},{"start":13116.806,"end":13128.65,"text":"他只要不提名單沒有新的董監事人選產生現在的民進黨的所謂的公視的董監事就可以無限的繼續的"},{"start":13130.868,"end":13156.114,"text":"言論下去所以今天國民黨跟民眾黨我們今天就是來徹底解決讓這種所謂的無限言論的擺爛條款能夠把它終結我也看到等到我們提出修法要把擺爛條款拿掉之後終於看到文化部動起來"},{"start":13156.954,"end":13179.267,"text":"文化部才終於姍姍來遲的把新的董監事名單提出來問題這個題我也跟各位講賴清德總統你真的是你一定是要把自己正名不如蔡英文總統嗎至少上一屆的董監事還會遵循在野黨的意見啊"},{"start":13180.658,"end":13192.017,"text":"結果呢 民進黨現在獨斷的提出董建勢之後最後審查委員依專業獨立審查認為說這些文化部提出來的人"},{"start":13193.235,"end":13218.721,"text":"並不試任 所以通過四個名單民進黨又再開始大肆的造謠我回頭講一件最重要的事情第一個 拜託民進黨不要每天只會鑽法律漏洞不干事本來嚴任條款今天是幫助一個有心做事的政府好好的提出董監事的名單然後讓董公事能夠順利的運作"},{"start":13220.501,"end":13244.424,"text":"但是這樣的法律到民進黨手上就變成今天為了要留任他所喜歡的所謂的民進黨的董監事然後呢濫用這個制度性的一個缺口開始變成所謂的無限延任所以今天修法我們就是要拿掉這一個擺爛的條款讓公視今天好好的提出董監事名單 謝謝"},{"start":13246.269,"end":13251.005,"text":"好 謝謝羅志強委員的發言接下來我們請劉淑斌委員發言范雲委員請準備"},{"start":13263.288,"end":13289.918,"text":"主席各位委員公共電視是屬於國民全體的公共資源董建市他必須具備了中立客觀跟專業的條件來維繫公視的超然獨立性現今的公共電視法呢他規定的在董建市任期滿六個月之前呢就必須要由行政院來做提名但是到現在的到"},{"start":13290.638,"end":13305.716,"text":"到去年12月17號才正式做了提名目前現在的總監事還利用了16條的巧門只要位級改選 屆期就自動的延任這個巧門延任到現在"},{"start":13310.942,"end":13331.258,"text":"那監察院呢也對公共電視董監事的延宕提名還有作業呢他已經提出來了調查也做了糾正了對於行政院跟文化部做出來糾正了要求的是趕快的去做修法來去做相關的"},{"start":13332.139,"end":13358.731,"text":"這樣的漏洞補起來那因為也是因為這個原因呢那民眾黨呢跟國民黨呢提出來了修訂的版本就是針對這樣子的萬年的公共電視總監事的情形呢提出了對第16條的修訂那第16條裡面呢就是刪除了現在第二項裡面的後段的自動的延任的條款"},{"start":13359.651,"end":13380.579,"text":"要使得董監事的任期在屆滿他結束時就喪失了董監事的資格來終結萬年的董事這樣的亂象大家知道公共電視是非常重要的資源因為如果沒有讓他順利的運作的話會發生重要的問題"},{"start":13383.5,"end":13401.908,"text":"為此本黨的需求在公共電視的這個治理運作的時候呢必須要趕快恢復到正常的正軌才能夠是發揮它原來的作用那也請各位委員呢來支持謝謝劉書斌委員的發言接下來我們請登記最後一位范雲委員請發言"},{"start":13411.601,"end":13423.767,"text":"坐在台下要聽從來沒有當過一天教文委員的羅志強講公事還有還當不到一個會期的劉書斌委員講公事真的是非常痛苦的一件事情"},{"start":13425.001,"end":13447.501,"text":"上一屆教文委員會我想我們 萬美玲委員在她就知道我們因為文化部提出來的董事人選不斷地被杯葛所以我們修正了公事法把全任公事董監事需要的同意比例從高難度的四分之三門檻改為三分之二但是新上任的小野部長"},{"start":13448.602,"end":13476.558,"text":"上任了還是沒有辦法解決問題小野部長說問題不是延任而是提名不斷的被推翻事實上的是大家看一下這次羅志強提出來的他要怎麼解決他的版本是審查被否決後如果沒有一個月內提名就不得延任提醒大家公視的董建是不是肥缺他是沒有薪水的志工"},{"start":13477.838,"end":13497.124,"text":"問題是如果藍白好主要是藍營不分青紅皂白的杯葛優秀的文化人杯葛優秀的企業家杯葛優秀的文化跟傳播學者有誰願意繼續來立法院被羞辱你們說沒有啊我們看一下小野部長之前過去有誰被否決"},{"start":13498.024,"end":13525.614,"text":"我出生學界我看到的是政大傳播新聞教授柯玉芬你去研究一下他有沒有發表過支持民進黨的話我保證你google不到他是做文化研究研究電視史在新聞系教授的優秀學者還有政大傳播學院院長郭立新他還經常發表批判民進黨政府的學者他研究傳播政策研究紀錄片等"},{"start":13526.714,"end":13544.135,"text":"導演賀兆提他是歐美亞洲獲獎無數他是單純的文化人你找不到他的黨派色彩完全被否決這一次我多次質詢林委員部長為什麼沒有辦法提出他說他到處拜託三顧茅廬找不到人願意來這裡被藍營羞辱"},{"start":13546.337,"end":13574.858,"text":"最近一次在去年年底剛剛羅志強宣稱太陽出來是因為他喊一下的出來的提名名單14位董事候選人很不幸只通過4位誰被否決了知名企業家施政榮原住民歌手金曲獎歌手舒敏恩還有在座可能也不少人聽過的國際知名的金獎演員陳湘琪請問他們有什麼政黨色彩"},{"start":13575.558,"end":13601.11,"text":"如果延任是擺爛剛剛羅志強說徹頭徹尾的擺爛我要提醒大家第四屆公視董監事延任968天遠比現在長你是在說國民黨的馬英九擺爛了三年嗎我就要講公視不是不能改革但是羅志強的提案根本是要癱瘓董事會謝謝范雲委員的發言"},{"start":13605.148,"end":13632.842,"text":"官院會本案保留條文請宣讀院會所收黨團版本修正動議區提案內容均列入公報記錄我們現在進行逐條討論請宣讀第十六條台灣民眾黨黨團 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在場的委員先進尤其是待會要來發言的羅志強委員我們來看一看這個《眷改條例》 個案立法特快車這個案子難道有關十人八村嗎"},{"start":19.141,"end":46.071,"text":"大法官有夠解釋國家對於有限資源的分配不能只照顧特定族群必須要考量一般國民的感受我們來看一看待會羅惠媛對本案還有國眾兩黨背書的捐款條例有何感受這個案子在去年4月交付審查外交國防一次審查然後到年底就抽出禁錮二讀年底完成了"},{"start":47.664,"end":68.943,"text":"黨團協商就在前天院長主持朝野協商今天就要交付表決這是什麼案子這麼急迫可能有人會說這個沒有啦這才50個人拖了十幾年持來的正義我們來告訴大家什麼叫做正義當年的眷改條例造成的結果國債目前國庫還要負責將近2000億的短處虧損"},{"start":74.278,"end":99.827,"text":"而民國85年捐改條例通過之後當時落成僅7年78年的慈仁八村居然被列入了要改善的老舊眷村天啊慈仁八村78年落成距離85年只有7年的時間居然列入要改建的老舊眷村這不是弊案 什麼是弊案果然99年接受檢舉100年"},{"start":102.567,"end":109.794,"text":"偵查終結國防部撤銷成人八村不得享有眷村改建的資格"},{"start":111.212,"end":138.753,"text":"眷戶持續的進行行政訴訟104年上述駁回判決確定而且兩度遭到大法官不予受理釋憲因此到了105年政黨輪替前夕行政院由林鄭哲政務委員召集1月5號完成協調由國防部提案結果就在5月11號5月11號就送到立法院來"},{"start":140.305,"end":151.66,"text":"隔個下個月行政院改組行政院撤回案子這是什麼案子這不是救濟案這是特權案這是弊案"},{"start":152.642,"end":170.204,"text":"而且羅志強委員的修法把69年12月30日拿掉之後現在當年85年依眷改條例新建完成的眷舍都有可能援引慈仁八村的例子"},{"start":170.965,"end":187.449,"text":"要求包括像羅志強委員 國民黨 民眾黨不顧社會公平政策委員個案修法貪圖個人的私利破壞人民的居住正義我們在這裡要提醒社會記住這一天這一天有國眾兩黨違反"}]}},{"id":"167117","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167117","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d1edf3028ce2a04dde982f7934814b91ebade3e1811d726c6c09b8c189df7679ae209839394804ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:07:21 - 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普惠同仁 媒体朋友 全国民众 大家好理性能源治理深化国家韧性本席今天要讨论的是台海情势当中经常被过度简化却深刻影响战略判断的关键因素 能源国际舆论认为"},{"start":31.767,"end":51.429,"text":"美国只要掌握了委内瑞拉跟伊朗的石油出口就足以重创中共当局的三分之一的能源供给然而实际情况是中共的原油进口结构呈现高度分散的情况主要的来源还是集中在中东与俄罗斯合成的比重"},{"start":52.29,"end":72.865,"text":"大約六成委內瑞拉跟伊朗的比例僅介於一到一成五當中因此美國的戰略不是立即切斷供應而是藉由金融結算航運調度保險體系等制度優勢來提高中共取得能源的成本與不確定性這樣的制裁模式對於衝突"},{"start":74.066,"end":98.68,"text":"衝突出擊的軍事行動其實約束力有限中共已經建立了相當規模的戰略能源儲備然而一旦轉成長期消耗戰能源的壓力就不再只是邊際的變數而是會直接影響民生 工業運作與社會穩定當低成本去風險化的能源管道受限勢必承受更高的戰略溢價"},{"start":99.46,"end":125.433,"text":"这种战后长期沉压的结构性风险才是真正对决策层构成实质嚇阻的关键从中华民国的角度出发这至少带来三项重要的启示第一台海的安全不是只有军事问题而是深度的堪入了全球能源金融与供应链的结构性议题政府必须持续的让国际间清楚"},{"start":126.033,"end":150.805,"text":"台海衝突將衝擊全球經濟制度的穩定第二政府必須要正視能源韌性所承載的國安意涵無論是能源來源的多元化戰略儲備量能電網的穩定度以及降低對單一能源的依賴更不能預設跟排除任何發電的選項包括核能"},{"start":151.545,"end":177.507,"text":"第三中華民國應持續的扮演穩定而不是局勢的一個催化劑的角色不僅應該積極來推動兩岸的和平穩定的現狀更應該透過民主夥伴等能源安全金融韌性與供應鏈重組上的深化合作讓任何企圖以武力來改變現狀的行為都必須要承受高昂且長期性的結構性代價"},{"start":178.328,"end":195.036,"text":"能源不是政府用來製造恐慌的工具而是預防地緣變局的戰略基礎當全球體系已經高度聯動真正具有嚇阻力的往往不是情緒與口號而是理性務實與結構性的制衡這是中華民國在動彈"},{"start":205.461,"end":208.497,"text":"謝謝林倩琦委員的發言我們現在登記國事論壇"}]}},{"id":"167116","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167116","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d1edf3028ce2a04d92a4133a4726f1a0ebade3e1811d726c6c09b8c189df76793b1f0242bc217b355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:04:00 - 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主席還有各位同仁今天我們特別提到的就是有關於一些我們新興的計劃那屬於有急迫性以及民生性的預算我們把它提出來眾所皆知現在中央政府總預算的困境就是在於現在行政院違法不編列對於我們軍人以及退休警消的預算"},{"start":37.379,"end":53.668,"text":"剛才宗嘉斌委員說人民好像乞丐一樣要敲碗才有急迫性但是我的質疑是我們現在我們的軍人我們的警消對於民進黨來說是連乞丐都不如啊"},{"start":55.364,"end":81.103,"text":"當他們敲碗當他們希望能夠編列應該法定預算的時候可是民進黨政府不聞不問所以在這邊為什麼中央政府總預算遇到這樣的僵局民進黨政府賴清德總統卓榮泰院長要負起百分之百的責任"},{"start":81.923,"end":109.73,"text":"但是在这边我们也看到一些新兴的计划里面跟民生相关还有它有急迫性的譬如说T-pass譬如说生育补助以及治水预算以及对地方政府的补助的部分我们在这边我们希望在合法合于预算法的规定之下我们先行做处理"},{"start":110.69,"end":135.511,"text":"這是作為我們在野黨我們負責任的願意去解決現在預算的僵局這樣的態度才是正確的態度如果例如像剛才王逸川委員在這邊只會提高聲量來問在野黨我想請問一下現在到底誰在執政"},{"start":136.292,"end":164.102,"text":"我想請問一下現在誰在當總統誰在當行政院長如果你們執政如此無能如果你們執政沒有辦法解決民生的問題如果你們執政不能夠回應人民的需要的時候那麼當然我們在野黨願意負起責任所以這不叫做為德不足"},{"start":164.662,"end":191.585,"text":"因为这是我们面对现在所有人民所需要的问题我们负责任的去解决问题所以在这边我要跟全体的国民来报告我也要再一次的为我们的军人跟我们的警校请命当我们看到花莲外海我们的F16V的我们的飞官的"},{"start":198.804,"end":200.452,"text":"谢谢王文伟的发言"}]}},{"id":"167121","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167121","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d1edf3028ce2a04daa400636fb267451ebade3e1811d726c52da594ae4c6e74e0fb57351b41a9d0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"11:29:14 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獨小主席 剛才國民黨的這個暴君旗 宗教啊 說得還不錯說得還不錯 我很快把他餓了 他說要民生為重要啦齁我當作他 長命吃魚 要吃到現在煩盡了他剩下這麼多 你已經七八幾天出來當他你們國民黨是怎麼空空的"},{"start":33.581,"end":60.229,"text":"你覺得你補運氣在唸的時候啊唸得這樣啼啼吐吐他可能也不知道你在唸什麼你不知道你腦袋有夠多的你腦袋兩千多億 兩千多億裡面欸 我今天跟你講一個T-Bus你就隨隨便便唸T-Bus我跟你講滴水 你就講滴水學人精裡面還有很多的我們還沒唸的我不能我現在是跟你說喔我們這兩天如果還有唸對幾條出來你不能再對喔"},{"start":63.252,"end":86.221,"text":"因為你們現在是為這幾條最重要 其他都沒有重要沒有人真啊 沒有人真你看他們不想心意上 還對經來經去 講經這幾個還搞不清楚對幾條叫做民生相關今天去啦 你們今天要退出來這裡台灣人都看得到你們是為這最重要"},{"start":88.615,"end":102.628,"text":"還有咕嚕跳的醫生 你們都不想信國防的醫生 不想信特別條例 不想信你們的黨主席 給我關心一件事說喔 台灣叫美國人 叫我講15%阿拉伯叫中國一樣 衝一下40幾%來看看"},{"start":108.12,"end":131.015,"text":"可憐 喔 你那董主席 今天要衝衝那麼高的今天15% 這樣你們有開心嗎 還是你們今天還要出來賣今天去通過這個 我跟你說 通過這個代表什麼代表你們選擇性啦 董事長說這愛 過路到明星 堆一條不是明星 你說"},{"start":132.356,"end":158.729,"text":"國民黨你現在公開說 後面還有黃宏偉叫黃孟楷 你們說你們今天沒有來 四季計畫 兩千多人對一條不是民生重要的 站出來說站出來說 指名道姓 看對一條 要保守對 要做對 堅實的不是民生需要的 後面還有黃宏偉叫黃孟楷你們兩個站出來說看看說到這七百多重要 其他兩千多人都沒有重要"},{"start":162.051,"end":184.604,"text":"讓我們聽聽看 讓台灣人民了解說原來你國民黨 叫這個民眾黨 投降在這裡現在全台灣 今天講的這七八幾億是重要的其他一點都不重要你不可以空空的 這幾天喔 老老說對幾條重要不可以再講韓國的 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在場委員先進中華民國行縣史來首次有立法院要處理根據預設法第54條當新興計劃因為能審議完均 使得動資受到限制的時候要提經立法院同意後來動資今天我們很好奇的是三個問題"},{"start":30.837,"end":45.006,"text":"國民黨跟民進黨所列的這718億他們認為重大 急迫攸關民生我們要問的不是它是否重大我們要問的是2992億的另外2274億的新興"},{"start":52.37,"end":73.305,"text":"資本計畫哪一項不重要哪一項不急迫哪一項不攸關民生請國眾兩黨告訴人民除了這718億之外其他的2200多億哪一項不重要哪一項不攸關民生哪一項不急迫第二我們要請教國眾兩黨"},{"start":75.56,"end":92.436,"text":"那麼你如何知道這些急迫因為總預算根本未交付審議你怎麼區別2991當中這718億特別重要 特別急迫 特別攸關民生你們是看項目嗎"},{"start":94.366,"end":106.736,"text":"如果你們看項目就可以做出判斷了我們要問第三個問題既然你有能力已經判斷預算當中的優先緩急數額多寡你為什麼不審議"},{"start":108.629,"end":126.544,"text":"目前115年度的中央政府總預算由於藍白的抵制跟杯葛遲遲未能交付審議不能符合預算法51條的規定因此根據54條這些新興資本計畫必須等立法院完成審議後始得動之"},{"start":128.666,"end":151.645,"text":"這個就是我們憲法規定的精神立法院是踩煞車 行政院是加油門預算編制權在行政院 立法院只能審議 只能踩油門因為憲法其實要寫立法院對行政院所提預算案不得為增加支出之提議很清楚 一個是油門 一個是煞車今天你們說 張祺凱說解鈴還需細鈴人 我說錯"},{"start":155.376,"end":180.716,"text":"今天你們是白蛇跟許仙一方面放毒讓我們重要的2992億攸關人民 民生 重大急迫的不能夠完成審訊進行執行而你們要當許仙 要當好人要說我把你這718億先行放行你叫其他2200多億影響的人民情何以堪啊"},{"start":181.457,"end":186.843,"text":"人民要像乞丐一樣我718億我敲完了你才給我我另外2200億我不敲碗"}]}},{"id":"167118","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167118","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d1edf3028ce2a04d9be0fa6b9c21f2dcebade3e1811d726c52da594ae4c6e74e16d77fa562bcf7fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:18:41 - 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交通安全跟便利的TPAS要趕快過今天民眾黨跟國民黨提出優先來處理 趕快放行我們要提醒上個月"},{"start":30.475,"end":52.164,"text":"在討論行政院砍了地方的補助款包括血統的營養午餐治水的預算民進黨黨議大議民意民進黨絕大部分的立法委員投票的結果是贊成砍地方補助款今天"},{"start":54.366,"end":58.438,"text":"在野黨提出依照預算法第54條也就是"},{"start":61.516,"end":89.894,"text":"不關門的這個機制我們對於新興的這個計畫可以先經過立法院會通過以後馬上放行包括TPAS行政院通勤業票的執行計畫還有公保生意給付差額的補助2.35億還有河川整治跟排水的整體改善計畫還有攸關國防安全的"},{"start":90.814,"end":117.362,"text":"AS365N海豚型機隊的升級中程計畫等一下請大家注意看民進黨的立委是不是又是黨議大移民議不通過TPAS的預算不通過防洪治水的預算不通過國防安全的預算另外賴清德總統說要趕快審總預算要慎應廣大的民意"},{"start":120.936,"end":128.051,"text":"台灣民眾黨最近做了一個大型的民調結果發現 問說你支不支持"},{"start":129.375,"end":154.975,"text":"行政部門應該趕快編除立法院通過的金人加薪跟警消的所得替代率提高高達67.6%的民眾都是贊成的反對只有18%進一步問如果不趕快補足是不是就先不要審結果51比37絕大部分的民眾也認為行政要趕快把它編除事實上"},{"start":156.136,"end":180.168,"text":"這個也是去年的解決方案去年經過朝野協商行政院長卓榮泰說趕快把該邊的邊竹去年就解開了解零還需細零人所以請行政院趕快邊竹該邊的預算金人的加薪景銷所得替代率這是一個治本的方法去年成功了那治標的方法就今天在野黨所提出來的"},{"start":180.948,"end":194.62,"text":"我們啟動不關門條款我們先讓新的計畫 包括剛剛提的跟民生經濟有關的讓他先行通過 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那國民黨其實一直堅持就是賴清德總統針對特別是有關於軍購的問題那預算這麼的高昂那應該要來跟國人說明並被質詢那當然這個部分其實我們各黨討論也很久了那如果沒有共識的話我的建議就是送院會處理 以上"},{"start":49.084,"end":75.146,"text":"好 謝謝羅志強委員接下來是不是請台灣民眾黨黨團的代表是要由張祺凱張委員高達1.25兆的這個特別條例從數量上去看就非常的大它會嚴重排擠到很多的社會福利跟基礎建設可是全世界現在大概只有賴清德 賴總統知道這個真相因為在他投書美國的一個媒體之前"},{"start":76.209,"end":98.365,"text":"我們問了行政院的院長周永泰連周院長都不曉得有這筆錢所以有必要請賴總統到立法院來說清楚講明白為什麼只有他知道而且不是向立法院或向全民說明而是去投書了國外的媒體另外第二個更勁爆的這1.25兆昨天晚上國防部竟然說裡面有3000億是要對內採購"},{"start":105.487,"end":123.418,"text":"這跟我們完全推翻了之前大家的這個理解了大家以為這1.25兆全部都是對美國啊結果黃國昌黃主席你們去了美國說現在明確的只有3000億左右的是對美採購現在又跑出來國防部說不對喔 有3000億是對內的喔那請問還有6000億到底在哪裡啊請問那6000億是要跟美國買嗎這段時間以後"},{"start":133.029,"end":152.838,"text":"會聲會影說包括有些金口商都要來台灣了請問這六千億真的有花在刀口上每一分錢都是人民的納稅錢真的有買到合適的武器嗎更嚴重的這種黑箱作業為什麼不能開大門走大路清楚地跟全民講到底我們需要的是怎麼樣武器買到的真的是合適民眾的嗎好 那"},{"start":157.285,"end":182.088,"text":"賴清德總統事實上在2023年的12月31號總統候選人電視辯論會上就做了承諾他說總統有義務應立法院的要求到國會進行國情報告接受立法委員的國情諮詢到立法院就國家安全兩岸情勢對美採購跟國防預算規劃進行國情諮問並且接受立法委員的諮詢"},{"start":185.283,"end":202.558,"text":"賴總統自己的承諾請兌現不要變成空頭支票而且我要做一個重要的澄清民進黨現在找到一個很奇怪的講法他說依法規定不能夠急問急答事實上早就沒有急問急答這個了"},{"start":204.042,"end":228.938,"text":"我們當初在修法的時候不是明確把它改成依序回答嗎而且後來經過三黨的這個朝野協商國民黨跟民進黨都提出我們可以用統問統答所以請不要再造謠沒有沒有急問急答這個事情我們用的是統問統答就跟當年李登輝總統去國民大會的狀況是一樣你說五個人問完之後做一個統問統答 謝謝"},{"start":233.337,"end":259.74,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝張祺凱委員那接下來我們請民進黨的陳佩瑜委員好 那我想我們真的希望這是一個平和討論的協商會場那之前我們民進黨的委員說張祺凱委員一開口就造謠果然到今天你真的還是沒有讓我失望我想要就你剛剛談的國防的例子我再一一的回覆張祺凱委員可能新聞太多 事情太多委員您來不及看清楚"},{"start":260.287,"end":279.624,"text":"第一個 去年12月17號美國公布史上對台最大軍售案3500億跟我們現在正在談的強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例就是一直被你們卡在程序委員會連掛號都掛不進來的1.25兆分8年"},{"start":283.647,"end":298.188,"text":"這是兩件事情所以你剛剛講了3500億這個事情我要提醒張委員這是兩件事情這中間只有部分重疊第二個國防特別條例的相關條文寫得很清楚"},{"start":298.849,"end":318.439,"text":"一直以來 國防部也好 行政院也好所有的 包含我們在國防外招的民進黨委員也都說了不是只有跟美國買武器賴總統自己也有公開說包含維修 包含訓練 包含支援系統還有培植台灣的本土國防產"},{"start":319.62,"end":323.642,"text":"之前在外交國防委員會也非常多國民黨的委員就這個議題跟國防部討論想要確保我們台灣有沒有能力有沒有量能相關的這些經驗可不可以真的如實的扶植國內產業其實國防部也都做了說明在條例裡面也都寫得很清楚不知道是不是因為被卡在程序委員會所以其他委員還來不及看或者是沒有空看那我就跟您報告"},{"start":346.899,"end":375.158,"text":"1.25兆分8年这件事情再次强调不是只有跟美国买武器我刚所说的那件事情请齐凯委员一并考虑再来国防特别条例当中国内产制3000余亿元其他是对外采购所以黄国昌委员您之前也说过你说对美军购只需3000亿这也是一个错假的讯息我不说您造谣但我必须要再次澄清这是一个错假的讯息接下来"},{"start":375.658,"end":390.672,"text":"特別條例本來就需要立法院先審過再從程序委員會進到國防外交委員會逐一討論我們才能夠編列預算編列預算後然後再次送進立法院審查在過程當中"},{"start":391.653,"end":413.307,"text":"拜託委員們記得所有的委員都有權利針對相關條例的內容實質的跟國防部討論跟相關的主管機關討論你們認為應該要怎麼改你們認為預算要怎麼調整這些都是可以討論的請各位委員不要忘記了之前是為了丹納斯也好為了光復的"},{"start":415.048,"end":418.97,"text":"災情大家都坐在這裡針對條例的內容實質討論旗開委員你記得嗎你幫嘉義爭取了很多預算你說都是你爭取的我們先不管你說是不是真的但是我要提醒委員們條例的內容是可以進到委員會討論實質內容針對預算針對內容最後"},{"start":434.477,"end":453.827,"text":"AIT昨天也引用了相關的發文再次強調他們被這件事情深陷其中他們希望台灣可以支持1.25兆國防特別預算這件事情希望可以強化台灣面對防禦跟嚇阻的能力以上針對國防的事情我想就理論理我還是要回覆一下張祺凱委員"},{"start":455.288,"end":483.722,"text":"第二個關於賴總統到立法院來做國情報告這件事情也要拜託張祺凱委員看一下憲法法院113的憲判9號已經宣告而且宣告條文講得非常清楚一他說立法院執權行使法第15條第一項也就是在你們的提案說明你們確實自己也引用了第15條第一項立法院可以邀請沒有問題這個部分憲法法院說合憲"},{"start":484.582,"end":502.339,"text":"所以你們確實自己引用這個條文但是立法院職權行使法第15條裡面第二項跟第三項總統來做國情報告的義務所謂義務這件事情是違憲的這個是憲法法庭所說的那理由是什麼呢來我來跟齊凱文報告"},{"start":504.383,"end":520.13,"text":"一 他說上開憲法規定僅系容許立法院可以被動聽取總統的國情報告的權利並不是說總統因此有向立法院提出國情報告的憲法義務"},{"start":521.471,"end":539.104,"text":"意思就是說我們可以聽我們也可以邀請但總統有沒有一定要來這件事情總統並不是直接對立法院負責總統受人民的直接投票總統受人民的監督站在台灣五權分立不管你要不要接受"},{"start":539.924,"end":555.13,"text":"台灣現行五權分立的情況下總統不需對立法院直接負責他是受到人民直接監督憲法法院的判決所說的第二個 再跟齊凱文報告立法院一樣是憲判說的立法院義無聽取總統國情"},{"start":558.011,"end":563.375,"text":"報告之憲法義務意思就是說如果總統真的要來了也走進來了委員你也可以不用聽如果你覺得他要講的內容他想要表現的形態他想討論的主題不是你想聽的憲法判決也說我們立法院的委員可以不用聽"},{"start":577.643,"end":597.25,"text":"大家是對的 第三個總統要不要來 什麼時候來用什麼樣的方法在立法院讓立法院得聽取國情報告及其國情報告的主題跟涵蓋範圍 憲法也沒有明白的規範總統自得本於其職權而為審酌的決定"},{"start":600.211,"end":602.214,"text":"意思就是說這個形態這個內容這個時間相關的主題涵蓋範圍不是我們立法院說了算而是總統可以自行決定所以剛剛在兩位在野黨委員的說明當中不管你們要什麼統問統答一問一答"},{"start":617.654,"end":634.587,"text":"我再次強調這些方式跟主題都不是我們立法院可以決定的憲法已經說得非常清楚了第四點基於憲法機關相互尊重原則與立法院協商後實施尚非立法院得片面決定者"},{"start":635.387,"end":654.062,"text":"就是我剛剛說的那句話不是我們立法院說了算不論你今天是朝野哪一個黨派不是你說了叫賴清德來說什麼做什麼報告什麼用什麼方法回答立法委員不是我們說了算這是總統可以自行決定的"},{"start":654.602,"end":683.621,"text":"最後 憲判又說了總統既不對立法院負責則立法院對總統的國情報告自無指定報告內容之權翻譯成白話文就是我們立法院沒有權利決定賴總統來做國情報告的內容是什麼樣子我們也沒有辦法就他的報告內容對總統為進一步詢問並要求總統答覆或要求總統聽取其建言之權"},{"start":684.862,"end":701.673,"text":"講得非常清楚意思就是說之前我們已經屢次的提醒在野黨黨團相關你們現在所提出來的說法都是一個違憲而且這個違憲是憲判的判例已經說得非常清楚了所以簡單的做結論就是要不要邀請"},{"start":702.353,"end":727.781,"text":"是我們立法院的權利沒有錯但是總統沒有義務出席要不要來如何報告如何答覆這些事情都是總統府總統決定立法院要尊重總統的決定再說一次總統不是對立法院直接負責總統受人民直接投票選舉而出總統權利來自人民受人民監督以上所以我想所有的相關提案我們民進黨團不予贊成"},{"start":732.36,"end":754.361,"text":"三個黨團的代表都已經發言了不過我在主持會議的時候我基本上就是希望我就主持會議就好我自己不要參雜太多的立場但是當你拿著麥克風說我在講錯假訊息的時候我就必須要糾正自己回去看清楚"},{"start":755.39,"end":778.718,"text":"我講的話直播上面清清楚楚我把錯假訊息四個字送還給陳佩玉委員你今天坐在這邊所在講的才是錯假訊息才是錯假訊息你沒有辦法面對現在拿了包包要落荒而逃我也尊重你四個錯假訊息這四個字我沒有落荒我丟還去給你我沒有落荒而逃"},{"start":782.779,"end":804.382,"text":"民主進步黨黨團的立法委員的素質展現在全國人民的面前展現在全國人民的面前好 那我們今天的協商沒有沒有沒有 他們已經離席了沒有啦 奇怪 抱歉我組織會議我一定按照規則他們已經離席了這個協商沒有辦法進行下去好 我們這個協商"},{"start":806.598,"end":820.526,"text":"你等我會議宣告完你要罵你繼續罵我們的寫商沒有辦法達成共識我們接下來就按照立法院自選刑事法相關的規定來進行處理好 今天的寫商到此結束謝謝大家 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17202","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17202","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6856e13f430e0f158c2b62f6da9541a768c0a219bd209750d2d97ef7ec9515e9b185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-15T14:20:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「醫療法第十二條、第一百零二條及第一百零二條之一條文修正草案」，請審議案。）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-15","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-15T14:13:06+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-15T14:45:00+08:00","duration":1914,"影片長度":"00:31:54","委員發言時間":"14:13:06 - 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怎麼來履行你們最高元首競選的承諾怎麼來面對護理師不回到職場不回到醫院這樣的一個困境讓人民很擔心很害怕這個工作是你們的所以我們提這個案是來希望提醒不要說了又不做不要只是選舉時的一張票然後最後變成巴勒票我先發言到此為止"},{"start":748.181,"end":757.417,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭志委員那不曉得下一位是哪一個黨團的代表想要發言好 那我們現在有請那個中國國民黨的蘇清泉蘇委員"},{"start":759.864,"end":776.836,"text":"謝謝主席,我很感謝民眾黨提熱這個案子長期以來對我們醫療的關心,尤其對婦女人員他們的付出也感謝婦女界,我們的福利是最大的問題"},{"start":779.337,"end":807.472,"text":"一間病院 護理人員的問題解決差不多解決三萬四十的事情大家都很關心事實上這幾年來我們健保也爭取了很多的預算比如說前任的部長還有現任的部長還有林次長等等都很用心花很多錢來預助這是要跟他們肯定的"},{"start":808.292,"end":829.81,"text":"價值起來,社長點值也有增加。我跟大家報告,我是在偏遠地區做重症的,所以我來說應該大家聽下去,我又心中外科醫生。所以在偏遠地區真的是,我們中央社會委員,我們屏東的,花蓮、台東、屏東,這些都很恐怖的地方。"},{"start":834.929,"end":853.663,"text":"說到這個福利人員要三班复辟、要入伙,我們很害怕,很害怕。現在這幾年欠到的錢,實際上都在調整醫事相關人力的薪水。福利人員的薪資,現在王子修你應該知道,大家調得非常高。"},{"start":854.643,"end":871.118,"text":"所以幾乎是醫療院所拿到的多餘出來的這些錢都在調薪水所以大家也是很努力的在配合那那個衛福部雖然沒有入閥但是衛福部本身也在訂定這個醫協中心區醫院 地區醫院"},{"start":872.199,"end":898.671,"text":"也護士白篇小頁大頁的配的病床筆所以是有在做那現在說要接他入伙我們是非常擔心尤其像我們花蓮慈濟醫院的院長很高興高興到好像一直打電話給次長、給部長要打給我所以不是花蓮而已台大也一樣所以在平原地區更加嚴重"},{"start":899.651,"end":913.391,"text":"那這個案子我們是尊重但是我是希望因為我們國民黨這邊由我來提案也提出一個案明天會在大宴會會交付給委員會"},{"start":915.473,"end":925.758,"text":"我覺得我可以請求我們國昌主席把這個案子稍等一等,等到我們的案子出現,做回來協商,不要急著買,"},{"start":930.16,"end":945.95,"text":"這是知識體大另外一個就是那個諮詢委員會婦理界我也很尊重但是要求說這個會員就要他們手上沾一半沾一半就不用議了他們說什麼就說什麼所以應該是要叫以前就是差不多三分之一議會的三分之一然後行政黨要跟學者專家三分之一這樣的話我就討論了這是我先發言的注定 以上"},{"start":961.789,"end":985.099,"text":"好 非常感謝蘇欽前蘇委員那下一位是王振旭 王委員要發言是不是有請王委員好 謝謝主席也很謝謝趙思維委員一開始就提醒大家有關於這個扶貧筆如何能夠在賴總統當初提出政見的時候要照顧福利金額這是很重要的很重要的 剛才我們要怎麼請你 委員"},{"start":996.566,"end":1008.074,"text":"我相信我自己在從事醫療在醫學中心服務還有在地區醫院區醫院服務過的經驗來看這個真的是非常重要其實"},{"start":1009.375,"end":1037.441,"text":"所有的醫療團體 都是在同一條船上我們的目標 都是要照顧患者不管是在哪一個層級 哪一個單位 哪一個職務同樣都是希望 為了讓台灣的醫療可以更好讓我們要照顧的病人 都能夠回復到健康回復到社會 替社會繼續貢獻他們的力量當然這個過程裡面 很多護理同仁的付出大家都看得到"},{"start":1038.121,"end":1056.414,"text":"也知道他們很辛苦這個剛剛我們事務委員已經講得非常的清楚當然這個一般來講我們這個同一陣線的這麼多同仁事實上至少有15職類以上同仁來做這些事情造化到把一個病人照顧好所以我們也"},{"start":1057.134,"end":1078.932,"text":"希望能夠針對所有相關的事情都能夠有比較好的考慮的模式這樣希望可以解決我們的問題我們也知道婦理同仁這個是自從我自己擔任醫師我看到都是癌症病人不可能我在照顧病人而已我最依賴的其實都是我們婦理的同仁共同來照顧病人"},{"start":1079.512,"end":1104.633,"text":"因為我們照顧的不是只有病人還有他的家人還有如何能夠讓他們在整個過程裡面得到最好最完整的一些醫療還有相關的這種照護這個都是我們一直以來希望大家共同來把這個事情做好可是如果我們從這個今天要修法的內容來看我們還是有一些擔心因為就好像這個剛師傅稍微所提到的這個問題可能不是那麼單純"},{"start":1106.594,"end":1127.194,"text":"那其實這幾年來透過衛護部編的相當多的預算來提高我們護理同仁的待遇那我們把這個工作環境也持續的在優化當中不管是AI的導入或是各方面的進步事實上我們也理解醫護同仁還是非常非常的辛苦"},{"start":1127.734,"end":1149.568,"text":"不過等一下也許我們也可以請次長讓大家了解一下過去這幾年來的努力對護理同仁造成了哪一些工作待遇上的影響還有他工作環境上的可以讓護理同仁希望他們回到這個護理這個行業的時候尤其在醫院工作的時候有更多進步或者是讓大家會安心的地方"},{"start":1150.348,"end":1165.014,"text":"我們比較擔心的就是說如果這個修法的內容沒有經過充分的討論尤其像現在蘇委員也有提了一個相關的一些內容進來是不是有機會大家更加充分的再溝通再討論"},{"start":1166.855,"end":1182.79,"text":"這樣希望能夠讓事情有更多的理解以後再來做後續的這些修法的內容其實這個負並比屬於系統性的政策議題這真的不是說我們把這個指標做了那些調整以後就能夠"},{"start":1184.251,"end":1204.676,"text":"有效改善的護病人力的這些內容所以如果需要透過更廣泛的這些處理的話那我們希望在內容上還有更多要拿捏的地方另外就是比較擔心如果用法律的預設來用決策結構先設定好的話"},{"start":1205.416,"end":1232.854,"text":"那將來會不會限縮到這個多元專業的參與因為我們知道醫療法剛剛提到至少在醫院裡面就有至少有15例別以上你現在就是在這個法律12條裡面把這個其中有關你負病的部分直接提出來的話那將來在多元參與的部分我們也很擔心在造成後續的影響那剛剛蘇召惟也提到決策結構的失衡"},{"start":1233.534,"end":1262.319,"text":"你來用二分之一這樣的方式來做討論最後委員會的決議的話那對於相當造成的未來政策正當性跟可行性可能就會讓事情不只沒有解決問題我們擔心果然在整個團隊上讓病人的招呼是不是會有點失衡這個也是大家要非常非常注意的地方"},{"start":1262.879,"end":1284.153,"text":"那另外增訂了這個102條之一如果是重罰跟停業的機制萬一真的執行那其實受傷害最重的是病人醫療機構本來就是要服務病人你現在把它停下來了這個停下來有時候是有一些無法去回溺的這種狀況之下這樣事情就大掉了"},{"start":1286.774,"end":1304.402,"text":"那對於整個醫療來講那個就是私信於民就是我們從契約的角度來講這個其實是非常要小心的地方所以以上這幾點如果能夠有更好更充分的討論我也了解趙執委員也了解這個"},{"start":1305.903,"end":1329.614,"text":"黃主席很希望能夠針對於我們異物同仁有更好的保障有更多的一些讓他們在就業或者是服務的過程裡面真的是讓大家充分的尊重護理的專業不過如果修法本身還有需要更多的討論的話我們很期待大家可以再詳細來討論以上我先表達我的意見謝謝黃主席 謝謝"},{"start":1332.163,"end":1358.871,"text":"好 謝謝王委員三個黨團的代表其實都已經發言了衛福部的書面報告也看到了不曉得今天次長有沒有希望再口頭補充什麼來 有請次長謝謝主席 謝謝我們三黨的各位委員的指導其實也真的衛福部非常感謝各位委員不論朝野都非常關心台灣我們在醫療服務輸出的部分能夠持續維持能夠滿足民眾的需求"},{"start":1359.871,"end":1382.308,"text":"但是同時也要能夠兼顧所有醫療人員的工作權益跟職場環境因為我們現在其實面臨到了這個包含COVID之後每個國家大概都有遇到COVID之後每個人對於這個進入職場尤其是醫療職場上面的人力都有一波的波動不過也先跟各位關心這個議題的委員報告就是說事實上一直到上個月我們全國的護理人員職業人數已經回來到198,526人"},{"start":1385.33,"end":1405.57,"text":"那比去年同期多了4650人而且其中有超過一半他是回到醫院因為在前兩年比較大的部分是雖然增加人數但是有一些都到基層去那所以會讓醫院這邊的負荷比較大所以第一個部分也謝謝各位朝野委員的關心讓我們其實一直來把我們的環境弄好讓護理人員回流"},{"start":1406.37,"end":1426.142,"text":"剛剛昭智委員有提到空床的部分這邊也要特別再跟各位委員說明就是說事實上這也是我們全台灣在各個不同的區域有區域的差別有不同層級醫院服務的差別所以其實每個醫院在經營或者是在提供服務的過程中就像剛剛我們蘇星泉昭委提到的"},{"start":1426.922,"end":1454.681,"text":"這個面臨到尤其是偏鄉所以這一次其實看到委員這邊雖然很好意要為我們來協助解決這個問題但是很多的醫院都表達了很大的關心尤其我聽到都是偏鄉醫院那也跟剛剛這個這個趙執政委員補充就是說其實剛剛提到空床率這個空床就有非常大的差別比方說我們自己現在正在盤點醫學中心裡頭比方說像有一些都會的醫院他幾乎空床率非常低"},{"start":1457.023,"end":1470.318,"text":"有的就是一直都滿床的狀態可是有些我們也真的沒有錯就有些醫院尤其是比較是可能是在所謂的這個都會周邊的醫院它其實就會有比較高的空床那這個部分我們正在想辦法來協調跟調節相關的這個醫療資源尤其床數的資源"},{"start":1474.162,"end":1500.703,"text":"那所以簡單來說意思就是說所有的醫事人員在醫療服務的輸出過程中都不可或缺可是有城鄉或者是有區域還有不同層級醫療院所他在任務上面他在招募人力上面的一些差異那尤其這個部分如果說像剛剛提到的委員這邊一旦就是把他入法之後然後這邊他就會立刻回到有停業的問題的話那我們會擔心很多偏鄉的醫院會沒有辦法經營"},{"start":1501.704,"end":1523.189,"text":"那這些其實很多醫院在尤其是很多偏鄉醫院他留這個彈性事實上很大的重點是一旦他突然出現大量傷患或者是突然之間有一些大量的急症的時候那那個彈性是必須出現的這是醫療上面有一些不可預期我們當然希望不要一個蘿蔔一個坑那要留到這樣相關不可預期的狀況能夠維持我們醫療服務的量能"},{"start":1523.769,"end":1549.453,"text":"那再補充就是說在現有條文的第12條雖然在條文裡面我們在醫療機構設置的設施還有我們的人員跟診療特別設置條件這邊條文上並沒有寫要找誰來開會但是也跟各位委員補充我們在101年那次最大修我們所有的新增人員新增醫事人員還有調整醫事人員在醫療機構配置的時候"},{"start":1549.913,"end":1572.863,"text":"那一次我們相關的學協會我們就整整開了13次所以其實每一次我們在調整每個醫療院所不同層級醫療機構的設置標準的時候事實上就像剛剛蘇星泉委員提到的我們其實會廣納廣邀不同區域不同層級的醫療院所還有不同職業種類的醫事人員一起來參與我們在整個設置標準上的討論"},{"start":1575.025,"end":1602.604,"text":"也真的必須說如果直接明定在這一個目前的條文委員的版本裡頭我們會擔心可能第一個是有一些團體可能在這個過程中反而會沒有辦法依照需求來納入討論第二個部分就是說在這個狀況之下那一旦這個硬性的處理之後怕有一些尤其是偏鄉或者是資源比較不足區人力招募比較困難可是又持續要維持服務像冰凍那樣的地方我們真的壓力會比較大"},{"start":1603.084,"end":1628.122,"text":"那再跟委員補充就是說其實我們現在我們依照未來台灣人口結構醫療資源的分佈還有現在我們也正在積極的協助各醫療機構能夠做智慧導入那還有我們在職場環境跟醫事人員其他的優惠等等來做各層級整個的參數來做討論那其實也就是對於各機構的設置標準事實上我們都是隨時在做滾動式的修正啦"},{"start":1628.562,"end":1651.844,"text":"那剛剛委員所提到的對於我們護理這邊也在補充就是其實我們在2024年7月核定護理人力整備12項策略4年我們投入275.4億那這邊包含了護病比這邊的補助那其實像比方說部立醫院我們現在是在我們最近一次調查全部全台灣的部立醫院我們都已經達成三班護病比的標準能夠拿到獎勵"},{"start":1652.765,"end":1671.467,"text":"那再來的話就是說夜班津貼的直接獎勵有明確的達成在各醫療院所能夠讓過去比較吃力的夜班有比較好的人力的補充那三班戶面筆達標的醫院我們現在用獎勵的方式也就是希望能夠體諒有些醫院他可能還有一些需要做的調整那我們也持續在其他的制度裡面來給予協助"},{"start":1672.968,"end":1701.307,"text":"另外还有几个可能比较细节的包含新手临床导师制度这一块我们特别拨了一些预算跟经费因为其实很多第一线的服务的学姐他比较痛苦的是要带新手你给我很多新的人我带新手带得更辛苦所以其实我们在新手导师的临床导师制度里面编列每年3.6亿元来减轻病房护理人员带新人的时候的这样子的压力所以这几个都是我们已经在执行而且护理界"},{"start":1701.767,"end":1726.341,"text":"也普遍認為說這樣子的協助有助於在廣納更多人才來穩定人力那另外在這個擴大住院整合照護計畫裡面還有多元的護理彈性那這幾個部分我們目前都發現說它可以讓我們的護理人員有更多彈性多元的服務方式那也讓護理人員這邊可以解除掉一些比較基礎的這個非專業服務的部分我們用整合照護來做協助"},{"start":1727.922,"end":1750.351,"text":"另外在最後補充一個就是我們現在正在做智慧科技的協助就是我們在這個目前的深耕計畫裡面協助各個醫院來做科技的導入舉個例子比方我們上次到台中總看我們過去的護理人員都要到BestSight去倒尿看他多少點滴每隔半個小時去看點滴現在還剩多少可是現在我們用這個智慧導入"},{"start":1752.032,"end":1775.009,"text":"那不論是護理紀錄不論是我們包含那個IO進多少議題出來多少議題等等都逐漸變成智慧化的處理其實就是很實質的希望能夠用科技的方式在現有人力的配置之下來減輕護理人員的負擔所以還是再一次謝謝各位委員的關心那我們這邊其實還是有相關我不要佔太多時間有相關的一些成績我們會持續來跟委員做報告"},{"start":1775.629,"end":1786.136,"text":"那也希望說能夠兼顧我們目前現有的一個這個協商的機制那我們也會繼續再來落實在我們做相關設置標準每一次調整還有相關的評鑑的時候都能夠廣納各相關學協會的意見"},{"start":1794.01,"end":1816.34,"text":"謝謝衛福部的次長所做的一些說明剛剛三個黨團的代表都已經發言完畢了蘇清泉委員 王振旭委員兩位大概都是一屆非常令人敬重的前輩對我們的護理同仁的辛勞以及他們權益的保障我相信應該"},{"start":1818.618,"end":1843.356,"text":"是放在心裡面啦而且可以實現那只不過說或許三班互併筆入法的這件事情這個政見要兌現或是這個政見要實現以現在我們所存在的客觀條件而言似乎是還有一些距離那最近這段時間我知道有很多"},{"start":1845.044,"end":1858.433,"text":"一屆的前輩也表達了很多的看法但是未來怎麼樣去進一步保障我們護理同仁的權益同時也同時增加病患"},{"start":1859.693,"end":1878.14,"text":"在照顧上面的需求照顧上面的品質還需要共同努力那今天蘇委員也說了說你有一個版本要進來那王征旭王委員也說了你有可能要考慮或許王委員再想一想有沒有什麼更高明的設計那"},{"start":1881.786,"end":1901.024,"text":"不是 因為大家總是要開始慢慢整合出一個方向嘛因為你不要只是空談空談再討論再研議 不知道討論到什麼時候但蘇委員就很具體嘛你有一個版本買進來嘛那我相信王委員站在議界的立場也會幫我們護理同仁爭取權益啦"},{"start":1902.085,"end":1930.306,"text":"那所以今天的這一場協商我們這個協商就持續的進行等到國民黨的黨團這邊看你們整合出一個什麼樣的版本民進黨黨團這邊王恩委員這邊有什麼樣子的高見提出來了以後我們再繼續的進行要不然我如果今天喊協商結束雖然我不會這樣做但我很怕一些異界的前輩今天晚上睡不著覺所以我們這個法案我們就"},{"start":1931.709,"end":1934.959,"text":"繼續協商非常感謝各位同仁的參與我們這場協商到此結束 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現在開始開會今天進行黨團協商台灣民眾黨黨團擬拒之不在即投票法草案案本案經114年12月12號本屆第四會期第13次會議院會決定進副二讀並由台灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商因此我們今天在本次會議進行黨團協商"},{"start":1860.105,"end":1878.319,"text":"首先介紹在場的各個黨團的代表右手邊的有民主進步黨的鍾嘉賓委員陳培宇委員中國國民黨的徐宇貞委員台灣民眾黨的張祺凱委員陳昭智委員今天也感謝各個行政機關"},{"start":1880.086,"end":1903.2,"text":"有派相關的人員出席那中選會目前的代理主委吳榮輝代理主委非常感謝代理主委波隆出席那其他各行政機關的代表因為時間的關係我就不一一介紹要不然這些名字唸完可能要一段時間請各個行政機關的代表多見諒好那接下來再進入"},{"start":1910.407,"end":1939.286,"text":"現在就開始協商了是不是先請提案的台灣民眾黨黨團的代表是張綺凱委員請張綺凱委員今天這個協商非常重要因為這個不在籍投票在全世界先進國家的島都已經實施多年了日本在1998年就是27年前就開始實施了"},{"start":1940.287,"end":1960.544,"text":"我們中華民國說自己叫科技大國竟然到今天它都還沒有南韓是2009年連很多移工在我們台灣的這個印尼印尼是2014年12年前印尼就有了就是在有些移工在台灣在工作的同時他們都已經在行駛海外"},{"start":1962.11,"end":1981.763,"text":"海外這個投票了結果他們在不在即投票台灣竟然到現在遠遠落後於印尼跟菲律賓真的有點丟臉更重要的我們號稱科技大國啊所以今天我看到中選會怎麼想包括怎麼實施不在即投票會有風險啊怎麼對自己這麼沒有信心這是第一個那第二個"},{"start":1982.878,"end":1999.631,"text":"今天陸委會也提了一個說明我們要很明確的證明這一次台灣民眾黨所提出來的這個案子只有在自由地區就是台澎金嘛沒有在海外也沒有在對岸所以請不要"},{"start":2001.056,"end":2024.656,"text":"請弄清楚那個範圍好不好請陸委會還有一些民進黨立委不要抹紅第三個也非常重要這個不在其投票不只是民主國家先進國家一直都是在做在台灣對於我們很多北漂南漂或者是戶籍在外面的協子或者是軍公教的這個人員是那一天要負責顯霧工作的這個人員"},{"start":2026.691,"end":2048.276,"text":"對爭取他們的投票權都非常重要他可以省時間我可以省時又可以省時間這個是非常重要的所以記憶上面三個理由我們非常的期待在這個會期之前可以趕快把這個所謂科技大國的台灣而且是定位只有在台澎金馬趕快完成三讀 謝謝"},{"start":2051.18,"end":2057.02,"text":"好 謝謝張祺楷委員那接下來不曉得哪一個黨團的代表要發言好 來請民進黨的陳培宇委員"},{"start":2058.237,"end":2080.868,"text":"好 謝謝提案黨團的說明我要說今天根本就是一場不應該召開的協商我先說結論今天根本是一場不應該召開的協商在立法院確實有很多法案可以淨附二讀但是很可惜我們看到有這麼多不在即投票今天淨附二讀被拿到協商會場上來討論的只有你民眾黨黨團的版本我就問"},{"start":2085.47,"end":2107.258,"text":"今天國民黨的代表徐玉珍委員你也坐在這裡我們來看一下還有多少所謂藍白和國民黨委員你們的提案版本被丟包在委員會待審但是你們今天卻要坐在這裡幫民眾黨說話第一個行政院的版本當然我可以理解藍白不想理行政院的版本好你們不處理也就算了"},{"start":2109.339,"end":2136.89,"text":"鄭天才的委員在內政委員會他談的是全國公民性投票蘇巧慧委員談的也是全國性公民投票牛許廷國民黨的委員一樣被丟包在內政委員會待審徐宇貞委員您的版本也被丟包在內政委員會待審而你今天決定坐在這裡幫助民動黨處理他們荒謬的提案有多麼荒謬我們等一下來說林思銘委員的版本葛如軍委員的版本魯明哲委員的版本鄭天才委員第二個版本"},{"start":2137.57,"end":2157.623,"text":"羅廷偉委員的版本 王宏威委員 陳金輝委員 洪孟凱委員有兩個版本一樣被丟包 最後是武力化委員的版本我就問 為什麼要禁賦二讀這麼多委員的版本被丟包在委員會 不願意實質討論而你民眾黨委員的版本 民眾黨黨團提案又比較厲害 比較高級 比較偉大嗎為什麼可以直接禁賦二讀 不用放在委員會討論呢我就問 當你要說台灣是先進國家的時候"},{"start":2165.908,"end":2170.693,"text":"你要不要去看一下別的先進國家在討論這些法案細節的時候大家是多麼在意執行的細節大家多麼在意基層公務人員面對這個不在即投票選務的建議請問你們有聽基層選務人員的建議你們有聽所有行政單位的建議嗎你們今天就選擇把民眾黨黨團的版本進覆二讀然後今天協商"},{"start":2187.25,"end":2198.755,"text":"是不是打算禮拜五就過水處理表決了呢然後宇珍委員你的版本被丟包在委員會所以你禮拜五也打算一併幫忙提案了嗎一併幫忙表決通過了嗎我覺得非常的荒謬所以我剛才會說先說結論今天根本就是一場不應該召開的協商喔再來我要說所有行政單位的建議所有基層選務公務人員的聲音你們都去聽了嗎你們都問了嗎你們都收集到了嗎今天不是科技不科技的問題"},{"start":2216.682,"end":2240.627,"text":"就連很多國家都說台灣的投票方法這件事情是值得學習的它可以避開很多擔心的問題最後我要說民進黨黨團也提了一個所謂民主價如果我們希望促進投票又希望在民主的機制底下保障不要有各式各樣的外力介入那請支持民進黨黨團提案的民主促進價"},{"start":2244.096,"end":2267.559,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝民進黨黨團代表的發言中歐國民黨黨團的代表請謝謝主席我想剛剛陳培宇委員特別下了一個結論我覺得也不用這樣妄下結論因為其實我們今天坐在這裡協商其實就是要大家廣泛的討論那當然不在即投票涉及選舉制度的一個重大的變革"},{"start":2268.32,"end":2286.702,"text":"所以當然一定要先取得這個社會有共識之前以及中選會做好配套之後為前提才能夠進行所以其實針對民主黨黨團提出的這個移轉投票的部分並適用在中央跟地方公職人員選舉跟全國性的公民投票"},{"start":2287.082,"end":2305.183,"text":"那國民黨團認為就是現階段的社會共識仍有不足建議繼續協商凝聚共識後再推動那當然我想今天這個協商其實就是凝聚共識的其中一環所以說其實我覺得陳培委員不用這麼緊張一開始就先下了一個結論其實今天就是大家可以共同討論"},{"start":2306.024,"end":2310.927,"text":"那當然就是說剛剛我們也提到其實中選會這個代理主委在這邊我們也想知道說針對我們現在的這個假設一轉投票到底中選會在施行上有什麼樣的困難比如說包括涉及選舉人名冊的編造跨縣市的投票轉換還有須高度依賴戶籍跟選務系統的這個精準對接那中選會跟戶政機關是不是已經做好完整的配套我想今天中選會代理主委也可以在這邊做一個說明"},{"start":2335.459,"end":2347.584,"text":"重點是我想這是一個針對先進國家其實我想都需要的一個公民投票但是我想剛剛我們提到這兩項的問題今天可以一起來共同討論 謝謝好 謝謝徐議貞委員吳代理主委今天你也撥攏前來你有沒有想要說些什麼來 請"},{"start":2360.037,"end":2367.992,"text":"主席還有我們黨團各位立委我想這樣子我站在中選會立場我必須要去表達不在其投票法"},{"start":2368.956,"end":2396.422,"text":"的這個訂定我們說不在即投票的確可以讓我們的這個選舉人在行使投票的時候他的可及性跟這個便利性的確會有可是他的前提必須說我們選入的可行性不能影響選入的可行性還有一個你這個實施了這個不在即投票你必須不能影響到選舉競爭的公正性跟他結果被信賴"},{"start":2398.143,"end":2413.155,"text":"所以我這裡要特別說如果假設我們實施了不在籍投票那個選務的負荷量會非常大但是我們必須要了解所有選務的工作它是有它的極限性"},{"start":2414.844,"end":2441.11,"text":"工作人員不是超人他也不是無敵鐵金剛所以你一直加他的工作說他都沒有問題過度的嫌污的負荷就會造成嫌污的混亂跟他的災難那我隨便舉個例來講我們說以我們這裡的空間假設是一個投開票所的話我們要移轉的票假設我們全國現在要移轉的票地方公職人員總共有多少種總共有8896種"},{"start":2444.366,"end":2453.122,"text":"那一個投開票的時候不要疑這麼多啊我疑你這個100種就好了各位都有去投過票"},{"start":2454.127,"end":2477.345,"text":"各位看到投票開票的時候是開票以後我就在牆壁上計票我們光是要貼那些票你根本就沒地方貼你怎麼貼到哪裡貼到天花板你也沒得貼還有一個我在開票的時候我還要去講說這是嘉義縣的某某議員的選票還是說村議長的選票那這是高雄的選票"},{"start":2478.326,"end":2506.473,"text":"如果假設我現在 我現在說這一個對不起 齊凱我說張齊凱一票萬一這所有種類裡的張齊凱 蔡齊安 整大堆我還要去看是哪一縣市的張齊凱那根本你做不到的事情而且會亂掉會亂掉 這是一個開票還有一個你去投票領票的時候本來假設我們這個票平常如果不不再去投票沒有實施 沒有移轉投票的話我們可能只有六張票 七張票"},{"start":2507.557,"end":2534.689,"text":"可是現在你把移轉的全國移轉過來以後光是那個領票的桌子排了有多少票你怎麼去領票你就會產生混亂這根本就沒辦法做的事情還有一個我們現在講說移轉投票這個是等於全國的物流因為你選票是在移動你選票在移動那光是你選票的運送過程你還必須要警察人員去跟隨"},{"start":2537.203,"end":2550.317,"text":"人力物力的影響非常大還有一個我們說以台北市跟新北市跟金馬地區為例這些外來人口特別多"},{"start":2551.738,"end":2571.437,"text":"那這裡就變成說大部分的人在這個都會區那移轉投票到這個都會區來勢必會造成一百零七年邊領票邊投票那個時間啊以我們這樣一估的移轉投票我那開到隔天的清晨這個六點你都開不完了"},{"start":2572.452,"end":2586.252,"text":"都開不完還有一個金馬地區各位不要忘了台商他的移轉投票他一定透過小金門也許從那邊比較近那我們講說我們以我們統計以金門的這個選票才才這個12萬人"},{"start":2589.578,"end":2615.99,"text":"連江的選票才一萬一千多如果台商不要移多少一個兩三萬過來他們就掛掉了因為他們的工作人員只有兩個三個在那邊他的人力的招募就有問題所以這個我們都必須要去考量執行變當然政策變你說移轉投票當然好這個我們減少社會成本這個都OK但是你要考慮選務的可行性如果選務不可行再好的法令"},{"start":2617.19,"end":2643.347,"text":"都跟空中樓格一樣沒有意義所以我們必須要考慮到這個實際執行片所以為什麼一直我們中選會的立場就是說能不能先公投再來選舉公投先來試看看那因為至少它是一個全國性的選區就好像總統選舉它是全國選區如果總統選舉或者是這個全國公投那它要實施移轉投票這個OK 這沒問題但偏偏我們的這個選舉都是合併選舉"},{"start":2646.67,"end":2655.48,"text":"比如說總統選舉跟立法會合併那他的選票就有多少就總統選票一種這個區議會74種原民的有兩種政黨票有一種加起來77種那77種全國在移動"},{"start":2663.739,"end":2687.912,"text":"簽過再移動那你說選務他會不會亂 肯定亂那亂的結果就可能影響到選舉的公正性他選舉結果就可能因為選務出了錯了那各位也許說那是你選務問題這不是選務問題就像我剛剛講選務它這個極限性吧你再教了他都總是有他的極限就算是機器你為了他帶多資料他還會掛掉啊"},{"start":2688.712,"end":2714.639,"text":"所以各位委員一定要考慮到執行面如果不可行的話不要貿然去這個推動不在即讓我們從公投先試看看公投走了沒有問題了或哪些需要改善的改善完了以後我們再來做人的選舉那先從移轉的再到其他方式我想這個是我們這個先會一貫的立場我們不希望吃緊都破碗"},{"start":2715.407,"end":2735.094,"text":"到時候不然會走路要耳背我覺得這個是很危險的事情我想這是我們這個中選會的這個意見好 謝謝 謝謝吳代理委員那接下來還有沒有其他黨團的委員要再發表高見好 那個好 那我們進行第二輪的討論來 請張綺凱委員"},{"start":2738.251,"end":2746.115,"text":"謝謝吳代理主委的體貼張啟凱這個名字我到目前只看過一次了不是蔡啟阿妹啟動的啟 沒的這個啟真正有候選人是蔡啟阿妹你們事先應該完成作業這個不會是問題啦那我剛剛看你的這個說明你對政策面是沒有意見嘛 對不對那講的是技術面跟執行我剛剛就舉的例子啦"},{"start":2759.554,"end":2781.027,"text":"日本在1998年日本人口應該比我們多很多吧我們還講我們科技比他進步為什麼技術面這個是做不到的連我剛剛都特別提醒了連印尼都在做耶印尼已經實施了12年耶印尼的科技跟他們選委會的水準比起來我們的選委會數值應該很高吧有比他們差嗎"},{"start":2782.228,"end":2793.23,"text":"我是覺得既然政策面定了不要妄自菲薄我覺得我們的中選會跟各個縣市的這個選委會的人員數值是高的經驗也非常非常豐富只要"},{"start":2795.717,"end":2824.397,"text":"用心去做然後事先規劃好我認為沒有問題甚至我們要幫他們熱烈鼓掌感謝他們長久的經驗跟他們的這個素質是很高的那另外剛剛民進黨也提到說這個法案沒有經過討論我要提醒這個陳委員其實我民國七十兩年的早期犯例這個案子以前民進黨都提過好多好多民進黨立法院提過你去翻一下最近這三四十年來這個案子非常非常的多包括你們剛特別一開始在講什麼"},{"start":2825.936,"end":2845.401,"text":"有到對岸去投票的你們對這個案子到目前為止我看民進黨發言最多的就是在講說大陸的民眾會台商或者什麼在大陸去的人會回來灌票這個案子就清清楚楚我們已經澄清了五六次你每次都來講是大陸人民這次就是很清楚這個是國內的移轉投票"},{"start":2846.661,"end":2867.519,"text":"只有台澎金馬事實上這個也是回應剛剛吳代理主委他的範圍就是限縮的非常非常小的啦我相信只要是有心有心 當然你提了一個方案你說從公投開始來做啦這或許是一個考慮的方案不過我相信依照我們的經驗依照我們的素質台灣的水準要實施這個國內移轉投票應該是沒有問題的好 謝謝張祺凱委員那不曉得其他黨團的代表還有沒有要發言的"},{"start":2876.636,"end":2900.196,"text":"好來請民進黨黨團的代表鍾嘉斌鍾委員謝謝主席主席辛苦了飛行幾十個小時那我們今天又連續開三場的協商很敬佩那因此呢今天我們的第一個題一個協商的主題是不在即投票的叫休選罷法簡單講那選罷法就跟任何比賽的遊戲規則一樣它必然是要是中性的"},{"start":2900.876,"end":2928.082,"text":"那選務工作人員他必然是中立的而選務的工作他就像接生婆就像助產室一樣他不能夠改變出生者的性別他只求能夠順利的生產完成分娩的過程我想剛剛代理主委他所表述的就是選務工作的本質中性 中立不會對結果產生影響"},{"start":2929.022,"end":2943.789,"text":"但是剛剛代理主委憂心忡忡就是說什麼情況之下會造成生產的結果不順利選舉的結果沒辦法順利的誕生這個選務工作自為重要所以有時候"},{"start":2945.66,"end":2960.864,"text":"胎兒的健康沒問題母體也很OK但是如果接生的過程造成了一些繁瑣的事情造成了難產那恐怕就不是選民所樂見的所以我覺得還是要回歸到選務的務實的考量"},{"start":2964.065,"end":2988.687,"text":"那剛剛張旗開委員提到說我們的提案很多樣嘛 沒有錯啊其實我們今天不是為了提案的內容的差異來這裡進行協商今天我們協商主要的成如就是我們國民黨的徐委員所說的因為包括他自己的提案都沒有在委員會可以來進行討論那我們看了一下這麼多的提案真的耶"},{"start":2990,"end":3007.81,"text":"有針對選總統副總統的有針對立委的有針對地方公職人員的又針對公投的那麼以徐委員的而立呢他是總統副總統立法委員和全國性的公投跟本案的含色範圍很接近因為本案呢還有一個地方選舉"},{"start":3009.051,"end":3027.644,"text":"那也就是說每個委員的提案他指稱的選舉項目不一樣含釋的範圍多寡不一樣那這樣的一個複雜多元的提案老實說不是在協商就我們有限的時間跟人員在進行溝通而是呢協商啊其實是在委員會討論"},{"start":3029.545,"end":3057.416,"text":"有一個大致的眉目方向後凝聚到少數的幾個爭點我們出了委員會到協商的地方這樣的協商才會有效率如果連在委員會這麼多版本的樣式的提案都沒有經過討論然後我們也不曉得爭點是那麼發散就像張七號委員認為說有人的指責民主黨的版本是什麼海外投票我也不曉得他指涉的是哪一個人的提議講的是哪一個版本"},{"start":3057.816,"end":3081.471,"text":"因為版本這麼多我們怎麼知道民眾黨的版本跟其他版本有哪些的差異真的沒有經過委員的審查這些版本之間的差異我們無從了解也是剛剛呢代理主委說到說我才知道原來我們從小到大習慣的開票模式會在牆上貼計票單每張計票單就代表一項選舉但是如果全國"},{"start":3082.881,"end":3090.698,"text":"不在籍投票可以在一個投開票手同時的話有8000項的選舉的項目那個組合排列組合有8000項"},{"start":3092.878,"end":3121.656,"text":"投開票所怎麼去張貼這個計票單那更不要說領票要怎麼去領那想到這些大家就頭皮發麻那我想今天主席常常說全國人民都在看我不曉得這個協商的轉播有沒有關心公共事務的選民在看但是如果他有在看的話他就理解到今天我們討論的是一個有投票經驗的人如果年紀較長的經歷過那麼多次的投票他都能夠理解我們代理主委所說的那種樣貌"},{"start":3122.597,"end":3145.051,"text":"那種情況那如果連一般的選民都可以理解代理主委所說的那一種多元複雜的情況那我們立法院是不是更該負責任的來好好的討論呢所以我其實在立場上是接近徐委員的立場就是國民黨認為這些提案呢我們知道了那未來我們可以有更充裕的時間"},{"start":3146.573,"end":3162.793,"text":"讓社會更多的了解來進行討論畢竟選舉啊 知識體大那麼其實我也了解到今天這個提案的民眾黨黨團的成員或許有時間的緊迫感可能陳昭志委員比較沒有啦但是我們都知道"},{"start":3163.574,"end":3178.564,"text":"鐵打的銀杖流水的兵啊黨團每一個民進黨每一個黨團包括民進黨在內我們都相信每個政黨提出的不管是區域立委還是部分區的委員區議員能夠當選進入到立法院來服務的都是非常優秀的"},{"start":3179.204,"end":3203.205,"text":"不分區的委員能夠進入名單的得到選民的 肯認的都是合格的所以我是建議民眾黨黨團或許不要給自己那麼大的時間壓力縱使我們的會期我們下個會期再下個會期我們還有時間討論因為提案是屆期才不連續我們這些提案在本屆2028年之前我們都有機會討論那麼2026的選舉將屆"},{"start":3207.388,"end":3227.131,"text":"如果我們在這個時候去討論這個議題難免會讓現在的參選人有些憂慮就像當年的丁守中委員一樣他參選台北市長後來因為公投跟地方選舉一起舉辦他還去申請司法的去查驗票我們不像他遺憾的情形在發生所以在這裡誠懇的呼應"},{"start":3227.952,"end":3251.483,"text":"我們國民黨黨團的意見也呼籲我們民眾黨黨團不要有時間壓力 屆期不連續這麼多的提案回歸到委員會好好的來審查我相信全國的民眾都願意能夠將我們的選舉規則越修越完善選務工作越做越順利我想選務工作絕對不要因為個案"},{"start":3252.603,"end":3277.718,"text":"因為一些政黨個別的考量因為選務是中立的選務的規則是中性的我再次的提出這些規則的修改我們都要非常的慎重以上建議好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員請問在場的委員還有沒有人有意見我們照順序應該先給中國國民黨的來 請徐委員"},{"start":3280.469,"end":3302.337,"text":"謝謝主席我想剛剛吳代理主委在講到就說有關我們的移轉投票大概吳代理主委已經有講出大概800個難處好像非常的困難不是我是說他把各種各樣8000多個那是他說有不同的選項但是我是覺得站在中選會的立場如果說移轉投票這麼困難的話那為什麼全國性公投你也可以處理呢"},{"start":3308.599,"end":3329.836,"text":"所以既然是全國性的公投可以處理有關總統副總統還有中央性的這個相關的選舉我覺得應該也都有辦法去克服所以如果針對這點的話我想很多事情其實當然需要我們全部人員大家共同來配合還有一些行政機關的調整但是我覺得也不能說因為難就不做"},{"start":3332.818,"end":3349.906,"text":"我有提案所以我剛剛講的就是總統副總統中央跟全國性公投這是我的提案所以我覺得既然全國性公投可以那總統副總統中央相關的也可以所以說其實這個部分的話我想不能因為說覺得困難而不做了而是應該要想辦法去突破困難"},{"start":3354.208,"end":3370.476,"text":"當然我想國民黨團其實一向就是秉持著當然要提升公民的參政跟保障人民投票的權利所以當然目前看起來我想還要繼續的協商才能取得一個共識我們也希望說當然相關的疑慮釐清之後我們再來推動 謝謝好 謝謝徐宇貞委員那個是不是請菜場的委員就是別人發言的時候還是尊重一下"},{"start":3384.729,"end":3390.792,"text":"別人發言的時候還是尊重一下啦這個是最起碼的規則嘛對不對那你如果要這樣子繼續干擾會議下去的話那這個協商要怎麼繼續進行呢各黨團的代表喔"},{"start":3412.947,"end":3426.497,"text":"都表示過意見了大家沒有辦法取得共識啊顯然協商啊 就不成立好 那我們的協商沒有辦法取得結論那後續就按照立法院相關的議事規則處理那這一場的協商到此為止 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專家學者們各位同事 各位媒體朋友以及關心台灣民主憲政的每一位夥伴台灣今天正在經歷一場由現任總統所主導的憲政危機憲法是國家跟人民之間的權責約束也可以說就是國家跟人民的契約每一個國人都要遵守"},{"start":31.471,"end":53.646,"text":"身為國家元首更是負有最高強度盡忠職守的憲法義務但是當總統所屬的政黨成為國會的少數的時候很遺憾的總統沒有選擇溝通卻是選擇對抗首創國家憲政史上的一個惡例"},{"start":55.581,"end":74.732,"text":"事實上立法院自第十一屆開議以來行政院除了違法 違三讀通過的條例 編列預算還發生行政院 行政院長不附屬已經復議 復議失敗的法案而總統卻竟表贊同"},{"start":76.209,"end":104.514,"text":"在民主法治社會所有的公民都非常清楚每一部法案的成立不是個人的好惡而是取決於法案內容是否符合法治國的原則跟憲法的規範對於是否合憲由於憲法法庭應該由憲法法庭做最終的判斷不是由總統盡致宣告為先或默許行政院長以不附屬的方式"},{"start":107.535,"end":123.829,"text":"踐踏民意代表所提出的一個法律也就是只有憲法法庭才能夠做最終的判斷才能夠對法律做出到底是合憲或違憲的一個判斷總統跟行政院長完全沒有這個權利"},{"start":125.762,"end":142.885,"text":"但是總統跟行政院長的作為充分顯示現任的總統不只是企圖削弱國會的立法權更是踐踏憲法所保障的司法獨立掠奪原本只屬於大法官的憲政裁判權"},{"start":144.549,"end":168.276,"text":"針對以下事由賴清德總統對立法院三讀通過經行政院附議失敗的財政收支劃分法透過行政院長以不附屬的方式來配合有違憲失職台灣民眾黨上個月提出了彈劾案獲得跨黨派59位立委的連署面對這樣專政的政府作為最高的民意機關"},{"start":169.83,"end":191.827,"text":"我們有義務守護台灣人民的權利我們更有義務要喚醒總統不要成為破壞憲政的兇手去年11月14日立法院依法三讀通過修正財政收支劃分法行政院提出復議之後立法院已經再次表決維持原決議"},{"start":193.923,"end":217.748,"text":"並依程序知請總統公佈那麼依照憲法第72條總統必須在10日內公佈這是憲法賦予總統的義務不是建議 更不是參考總統沒有權力拒絕履行程序性的義務然而 遺憾的賴總統沒有依循憲法形式反而在法律三讀通過之後"},{"start":219.4,"end":243.593,"text":"召集了執政黨立委在黨中央開辯當會密謀討論要以不附屬或是附屬後不執行的方式來決定法律要不要執行這是赤裸裸的踐踏民主法治而台灣的民主憲政一再被挑戰台灣民眾黨立院黨團要向賴政府表達最嚴正的抗議此外"},{"start":245.151,"end":261.412,"text":"附屬制度在憲政制度的設計上它本來是行政院長用來制衡總統權力的工具是行政院對立法院負責的一個機制絕對不是行政院用來否決國會三讀法律的手段"},{"start":262.333,"end":287.836,"text":"宪法非常清楚的规定行政院如果认为国会通过的法律至暗难行可以提出复议但复议失败之后呢就必须接受立法院的决议否则复议制度还有什么意义呢行政院干脆不要复议了直接用不附属的方式让法律消失好了如果今天才划法可以被选择性的不公布那么明天是不是牢记法"},{"start":289.383,"end":308.842,"text":"公投法甚至任何法律都可能因為總統不喜歡就被擱置了呢如此立法院三讀的意義是什麼人民選出的立委還有實質的權利嗎如果接受這樣的做法代表台灣不再是法治國家而是因人設置的人治國家"},{"start":310.529,"end":325.939,"text":"行政院和總統向社會大眾一再透過話語權宣稱有些法律違憲有損國家安全破壞財政紀律本席要再強調一次是否違背憲法從來不是行政權說了算"},{"start":327,"end":348.9,"text":"如果行政院可以自行判定那麼憲法法庭存在的意義是什麼大法官存在的意義是什麼權力分立的核心原則就是禁止擴權任何機關都不能夠以削弱其他機關為代價來擴張自己的權力但是現在立法院被架空了司法權被取代了"},{"start":349.901,"end":376.539,"text":"所有的執行判決否決都集中在一黨一人身上這不是民主這是走向獨裁有人說憲法法庭是因為暫時無法審理所以行政部門可以自行判斷但真正的事實是造成憲法法庭空轉的就是總統自己提名大法官是總統的憲法職責那麼立法院行使同意權是一個制衡"},{"start":377.418,"end":402.846,"text":"立法院不同意總統就必須重新提名啊不能用法庭不能運作為藉口來否決國會通過的法律這就像是他把鑰匙先丟掉了然後說我門打不開我必須破門而入這真的是執政黨毫無忌憚的一個以蠻橫凌駕憲政一百多年前袁世凱就是用穩定國家"},{"start":403.906,"end":414.569,"text":"避免内乱的民意逐步削弱议会消灭反对的声音但是后来人民发现了他夺走的不是个人的权利而是所有人的未来"},{"start":415.854,"end":440.475,"text":"民主或許不會一夕被奪走但是一旦被侵蝕了步步都可能造成無法逆轉的後果這是歷史給我們的警訊我們今天在台灣看到的其實正是類似的危機總統領導的行政團隊企圖架空立法院僭越司法權已經嚴重破壞憲法制度的底線過去多年來我陪著民進黨"},{"start":441.756,"end":453.465,"text":"從民進黨還沒有出生到成熟長大從街頭運動到帶領主要的民間社團民進黨的前輩啟發我對民主的認知就是政黨政治"},{"start":454.52,"end":478.187,"text":"有監督有制衡它的基礎就是憲政法治今日賴總統縱容執政黨利用龐大的行政資源製造社會對立消耗國力曾幾何時台灣人民在公開場合談論政治會懷著被批判的恐懼不敢在社群團體暢談自己的理想跟政治信念請問民進黨你還有資格紀念鄭南榮嗎"},{"start":485.539,"end":494.224,"text":"總統沒有責任嗎這是號稱民主進步的政黨主席的領導風格嗎已經執政十年的民主進步黨不用檢討嗎"},{"start":495.984,"end":516.3,"text":"很遺憾的即使已經升為國家的總統賴總統依然擺脫不了民進黨黨主席的一個思維以黨領政的風格本席要再次重申台灣民眾黨跟中國國民黨對第十六屆總統賴清德所提出的彈劾案是憲法賦予立法機關的最後一道防線"},{"start":517.501,"end":534.435,"text":"這是對賴總統的憲政警示也是多數人民最嚴正的忠告總統再大也大不過憲法權力再強也強不過人民總統再大也大不過憲法權力再強也強不過人民如果我們選擇沉默"},{"start":536.016,"end":553.858,"text":"接受總統選擇性的遵守憲法那麼明天後天每一條法律都可以面臨相同的對待我們做這個決定不是為了政黨利益而是為了國家與人民我們要告訴掌權者人民才是國家的主人台灣的民主得來不易啊"},{"start":554.398,"end":579.953,"text":"不能讓他在看似合法 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主席今天所與會的各位學者專家在場各位媒體記者先生女士朋友我想今天我們希望說這樣子的一個公聽會大家也邀請了學者也邀請了專家我們是希望說是針對這個我們的這個今天這個所謂彈劾案的這個憲法的相關的法理來進行討論不過剛才我整場聽下來比較像是一個政論節目那這個部分我比較感到遺憾"},{"start":33.079,"end":52.165,"text":"我想在我開始討論這個憲政問題之前,我首先跟大家一起齊文共賞。大家來看看這個畫面上,秀出的是這次我們立法院議案關係文書,由本院委員傅坤祺、羅志強、林佩祥、黃國昌等60人所提出來的這個說話。今天我們為什麼開這個公聽會,就是因為這篇齊文。"},{"start":53.985,"end":82.948,"text":"那我們來看這篇檄文他這裡面說簡單講他要彈劾賴清德總統他所掳列的大概這麼多大一篇掳列大概就是六個理由第一個理由指揮授意行政院長左榮泰濫編預算這個部分第一個指揮授意這個部分你們提出指控的你們要有負舉證責任這個哪裡他在用什麼方式指揮授意第二"},{"start":84.108,"end":106.588,"text":"編列預算是行政院專屬的權利依照憲法第59條由行政院編列預算不管他怎麼編編列預算就是行政院的權利至於他預算編得好或不好你同意或不同意那是立法院的權利立法院的審查依照憲法第63條立法院就審查你覺得他爛編你就刪除啊你覺得他爛編你就全部凍結啊"},{"start":108.462,"end":136.328,"text":"那你今天因為這個你今天把這個拿來當作一個彈劾那你要彈劾你再怎麼樣你也說預算是行政院長編的你也來對付行政院長啊結果你說用這個理由你來彈劾總統這個是這篇文章的第一期第二期這個說第二個理由他說因為造謠抹黑從來彈劾的理由都是看總統做什麼事而不是看那個人說什麼話"},{"start":138.342,"end":162.865,"text":"照謠抹黑一樣啊 你要舉證啊 他照了什麼謠 抹了什麼黑沒有 就這四個字然後再來用言論 意思說總統講什麼話 所以我們要來彈劾他這個是第二期 第三期利用司法迫害一級這個我們檢察官依照職權追訴犯罪法院他依照職權發現真實進行什麼依法審判"},{"start":164.376,"end":184.879,"text":"這個你說用司法迫害異己舉證啊 拿來說在講啊這個目前第四個這個發動大惡霸摧毀臺灣民主什麼時候人民行使依法行使選舉罷免創制 覆決結果要來彈劾總統這個邏輯我完全不懂"},{"start":185.885,"end":212.897,"text":"人民行使依法行使啊它是違法行使的罷免嗎不是依法行使選舉罷免創制複決你以此為理由來罷免總統第五放任台積電赴美投資各位台積電赴美投資所以要彈劾賴清德這個是不是這篇文章的第五期那為什麼鴻海去投資中國那也要來罷免賴清德好了"},{"start":214.715,"end":227.002,"text":"這個一個民間公司的投資行為你拿來當作罷免總統的理由這些都不值一審啦我剛講這些都不值一審真正關鍵的是我們今天希望討論的第六個理由"},{"start":227.947,"end":256.488,"text":"你們認為說行政院長以不附屬為由來針對這個才化法行政院長不附屬這才是今天大概是最重要的關鍵剛剛大家談的有50%集中在這個議題上面所以我要來談一談這個所謂的不附屬這個問題退一萬步講啦就算這個是理由那也是行政院長不附屬啊行政院長不附屬按照憲法總統就不能公佈啊"},{"start":257.928,"end":283.849,"text":"所以總統不但沒有違憲而且他是完全是合憲的啊那至於行政院長不附屬你說行政院長不附屬違不違憲我們現在才討論但就算他違憲你們也用憲法的手段來處理行政院長啊怎麼會來彈劾總統呢這個又是這篇文章的第六集那我們來談這個所謂的附屬權剛剛也有學者提到"},{"start":285.43,"end":309.692,"text":"當初中華民國憲法有關於這個我先看這邊很多政治學的教授還有我自己的老師都在這裡這個當初所謂政治學大學第一課打開David Easton的政治學第一課第一個圖這是input output第二個圖這是什麼這是權力分立三個權力check and balance行政 立法 司法三個權力它各有各的"},{"start":310.473,"end":335.448,"text":"我們看這每一個權力之間都有兩個箭頭一個是我制衡你的權力一個是你制衡我的權力三權分立美國的也是這樣日本的也是這樣中華民國比較特別五權但是我們在談中華民國的憲法設計他還是基本上在三權之間他還是彼此有互相制衡的權力這個是憲法制度這最基本的權力分立制度的原理那我國因為"},{"start":336.741,"end":355.783,"text":"原本最初當初的中華民國憲法本文由張君邁他所起草的中華民國憲法本文他其實整個是傾向內閣制的也就是剛剛大家所講的原本我們憲法所規定的行政院長附屬權原本是用來制衡總統的沒有錯當初設計憲法本文的時候"},{"start":356.65,"end":371.285,"text":"他是來制衡總統的他代表著內閣制很重要的一個精神這是當初我們中華民國憲法本文設計的時候但是蔣介石當總統他不甘願啊所以他用動員刊亂時期臨時條款把他整個變成總統制我們中華民國憲政體制上除了蔣經國當行政院長以外沒有內閣制過"},{"start":384.049,"end":403.816,"text":"當初原本附屬權是屬於是因為當初的行政院長必須經過立法院同意所以他具有強大的內閣制精神這是憲法本文但是我們在修憲的時候把這個行政院長"},{"start":405.322,"end":431.964,"text":"必須經立法院同意我們把它拿掉了拿掉了我們在這個哪一年修憲修憲的時候把這個行政院長任命行政院長必須經過立法院同意拿掉了使得我們憲法中修條文之後的內閣制精神整個降低了行政院長基本上變成總統任命所以因為他的權力來源來自總統所以行政院長沒有什麼制衡總統這回事的"},{"start":433.064,"end":457.384,"text":"所以如果附屬權理論上是制衡總統的話那時候附屬權就應該全部拿掉了但是我們留著我們不是全部保留喔我們再修憲一次當年為了這個你說第一個拒絕附屬的行政院長是左翁派嗎 不是第一個拒絕附屬的行政院長是郝柏春他當年針對蔣仲林的人事案他拒絕附屬"},{"start":459.44,"end":477.861,"text":"所以因為好柏村的拒絕附屬因此我們又進行修憲不是我們 是那時候國民黨主導的修憲又把這個針對人事案的附屬權拿掉部分針對人事案的附屬權把它拿掉就是因為好柏村拒絕附屬"},{"start":479.861,"end":503.389,"text":"拿掉但是他沒有把整個附屬權拿掉他其他的附屬法律案的附屬權他依然保留在憲法裡面這個是什麼這個是憲法有意的沉默他拿掉了人事同意人事的附屬權獨留法律案的附屬權表示這個附屬權是存在而且有價值有意義的在在徵修條文修憲之後的體制依然是重要的權利"},{"start":505.103,"end":526.888,"text":"所以我們今天爭論的意思就是說附屬權到底是一個義務就中華民國法律通過之後你就一定要附屬就一定要公佈這是一種看法這就是你們今天今天這個國民黨跟民眾黨的看法另外一個看法認為附屬權不是他是一個權利他是一個行政院長的權限所以他會規定在憲法裡面那"},{"start":531.432,"end":553.438,"text":"這個東西有爭議理論上那到底他可不可以不附屬理論上這樣子的憲政爭議應該由誰來做最後的判定他到底可不可以其實是憲法法院照體制走就是憲法法院剛大家都講說憲法法院才有終極判決的理由剛才大家這麼多人在那邊講說賴清德違憲 賴清德明顯違憲"},{"start":556.616,"end":582.733,"text":"那你們也沒有權利講賴清德違憲啊只有憲法法院可以說賴清德違憲但是我們中華民國這部體制經過七次修憲拼裝之後本來雖然不好騎但是也是一台滿好騎還是可以走的腳踏車結果有兩個惡棍一個叫國民黨一個叫民眾黨拿一根鐵棍從車輪插進去這腳踏車翻車了這根鐵棍是什麼就是憲法訴訟法癱瘓憲法法庭因為國民黨"},{"start":586.246,"end":610.921,"text":"民眾黨癱瘓的憲法法庭使得現在所有的這些憲政爭議你通通變成沒有得到最終終局解決的可能性剛才所有學者我看張其祿教授是我很好的朋友他講的很有道理啊他說現在的這個總統制這個是憲法制度是有問題的這樣子的設計他大概整篇都講我們憲法制度有很大的問題"},{"start":612.746,"end":636.727,"text":"憲法制度有很大的問題所以要罷免總統所以要彈劾總統這個是什麼邏輯因為我們的憲法制度設計有問題所以我們要來彈劾賴清德我在這裡講這麼多但是最重要是我們要回歸到最後憲政體制的設計在場都是學者大家也都是在教人子弟的"},{"start":637.865,"end":658.359,"text":"都是在教人子弟的有關於憲法這樣子相關的權限我剛剛所講的通通都是就是權力制衡check and 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發言時程每位學者專家發表意見時間為十分鐘審查小組委員每位詢問時間同為十分鐘本院委員發言完畢之後再由學者專家代表綜合答覆三十分鐘"},{"start":1850.055,"end":1864.28,"text":"因此 請各位學者專家發表高見後也能聽取本院各黨團所推派的委員代表之詢問發言最後 還請各位學者專家賜教答覆"},{"start":1865.14,"end":1887.158,"text":"二 發言順序先由學者專家發言次由審查小組委員發言最後再由學者專家綜合答覆相關的發言順序請參閱陳列於各位桌上的名單各黨團所舉建的學者專家審查小組委員如不在場或必要時"},{"start":1889.326,"end":1911.323,"text":"呃講"},{"start":1911.564,"end":1936.985,"text":"好 江副院長 各位委員還有各位與會的先進那今天參與這個公聽會會非常的榮幸那因為事關重要那我先用我這個比較是這個發言稿先做一些說明然後要是時間還有的話我會再做補充我想今天這個公聽會表面上是圍繞著這個賴清德總統他彈劾案所引發的爭議而召開"},{"start":1938.447,"end":1959.285,"text":"但是我認為如果我們只把焦點停留在彈劾案是否成案還有特定政治人物的去留恐失去我們真的值得警惕的問題這樣的注意這場爭議的核心不只是一個彈劾案而是台灣整個憲政體制在雙少數政府下"},{"start":1962.456,"end":1986.825,"text":"真正出現的制度的失靈甚至演變成整個民主運作的結構性的問題我們必須先說明的是這個彈劾案之所以被提出它直接的原因並非單一的政策的爭議而是近期整個在行政體系長期採取高度對抗的政治操作包括不附屬 不公佈 不執行這些做法"},{"start":1988.075,"end":2008.082,"text":"事實上這些行為已經超越一般政治攻防的範疇而是對既有的這種憲政秩序造成實質的衝擊當立法院依法通過的法案跟預算案無法通過正常的行政程序加以落實那行政跟立法之間原本應該有的制衡機制就等於是停擺"},{"start":2010.253,"end":2022.446,"text":"那這個民主制度也隨之空轉這正是現在這個少數政府在行政跟立法長期僵局下所暴露的這個結構性的困境那面對這樣子的這個困局"},{"start":2023.875,"end":2041.183,"text":"當然有人主張現行的憲政體制還是提供了一些制度性的解方,譬如像是復議、釋憲、不信任案,甚至倒閣。但是我們必須誠實地說,在目前政治結構跟實際運作的條件下,這些工具幾乎都沒有辦法發揮功用。"},{"start":2042.776,"end":2059.695,"text":"因為附議在國會有多數是在野黨掌握的情況下它這個立法結果不會改變它只會延長政治的對抗跟治理的停滯那釋憲則因為憲法法庭人數的不足跟人事提名的不當這個也包括未能獲得國會多數支持"},{"start":2061.159,"end":2078.378,"text":"導致整個司法審查的這個功能跟正當性均大幅的削弱那不信任案跟倒閣呢即便形式上能夠成功他也僅能更換行政院長甚至在實務上也未必能真的更換因為總統還是可以不經立法院的同意而再次任命同一個人"},{"start":2079.491,"end":2098.074,"text":"所以這個結果依然是什麼就是行政院長有責無權總統有權無責的憲政失衡狀況造成這個行政跟立法的僵局是不會鬆動的事實上我們目前這個問題的真正的根源是在我們對民主制衡的一個誤解"},{"start":2099.324,"end":2117.527,"text":"必須重申的是行政機關包括總統跟行政院長他們所提出來的法案跟預算本應該受國會多數的節制這不是阻擾施政而是民主制度中權力制衡的核心機制同樣的這些重要的人事任命包括大法官"},{"start":2118.618,"end":2143.044,"text":"考試院與監察委員未來的以及公平會 中選會國家通信傳播委員會等這些關鍵性的憲政或獨立機關它如果完全排除國會多數的參與未能體現權力的分享跟責任政治它實質效果也就等於不只是人事的延宕而會真正出現由行政權反覆提出國會不能接受的人選變成一種癱瘓的現象"},{"start":2146.505,"end":2161.681,"text":"事實上在少數政府的情境下權力不僅是要受到節制更應該被分享這也是為何在比較憲政的經驗中我們常以法國的左右共治作為重要參考法國總統選舉他會採兩輪投票"},{"start":2164.741,"end":2187.242,"text":"第一輪如果沒有人獲得過半數支持就會進入第二輪並由得票前兩高的人進行禁足最終當選者他必然是獲得過半數的選民授權不至於形成像我們現在的這種少數票總統而且總統一旦當選他也會以超然與黨派之上的國家領袖自居他會退出他也不會兼任"},{"start":2188.322,"end":2216.554,"text":"政黨的主席來凸顯他是全民總統的這個憲政角色而在國會如果真的出現分裂或多數更替的狀況下總統在任命總理時候也一定會尊重國會的多數生態實際由多數黨或者是多數聯盟的這個領袖出任革揮而形成很制度化並且可運作的這種左右共治那相較之下台灣目前的政治實踐是反其道而行"},{"start":2218.248,"end":2240.238,"text":"當制度協商被擱置取而代之的反而是政治的對抗跟民粹的動員比如之前以大規模的罷免企圖來改變國會結構如此發展不僅不能化解僵局反而使行政與立法之間的對抗持續升高甚至演變為少數政府透過行政權力結合民粹甚至是仇恨動員來主導國家的運作的狀況"},{"start":2243.92,"end":2262.69,"text":"而當這個行政體系拒絕回應多數民意,仍持續使用高度集中的權力,憲政秩序事實上已經遭到癱瘓,民族也可能退化成實質上的民選獨裁最後我們回到彈劾案本身,我必須承認在制度設計來看"},{"start":2264.332,"end":2291.145,"text":"我們成案的門檻非常高成功的機率非常有限但是這個彈劾案真正的意義是什麼它並不是在於是不是能夠成案而是在於它所引發的公眾討論跟民主的警訊它是一個提醒社會正視我們憲政運作危機的七手勢當制度失靈而又缺乏有效出口的時候社會必須被清楚地告知問題不只是政黨的對立或政治立場上的競爭"},{"start":2292.586,"end":2300.924,"text":"而是在整個 我們現在目前是以整個民主憲政體制作為犧牲甚至走向民選獨裁的這個方向作為代價來運作"},{"start":2302.984,"end":2325.128,"text":"那民主這個從來不是只是看選舉的結果它更是權力怎麼被限制被分享甚至被負責任的使用那我們今天這場公聽會若能夠讓我們能正視這個制度層次的問題而不只停留在政治動員跟對立之中才能讓民主政治台灣的民主政治找到一條真正的出路我在這邊再補充我剛才的這個發言"},{"start":2330.137,"end":2355.572,"text":"其實台灣現在今天談這個彈劾案真正的碰到的大問題就是我們真的在制度上設計上的大問題我必須跟各位報告其實我在大學裡面也教授政治學其實我們常問我們的學生一個政治學101的問題很簡單就是說全世界有哪個國家實施總統制他在政治經濟社會上都是很成功的"},{"start":2356.272,"end":2378.307,"text":"但是請不要再告訴我美國這個答案那學生們多數都很難想得出更好的答案坦白說啦其實事實上全世界很多國家都實施總統制而且越來越多但是這並不見得它就是一個對的制度我必須誠實的說所有的我們台灣的政黨在在野的時候都提出過其實應該往這個所謂的"},{"start":2381.629,"end":2402.595,"text":"內閣制來修正那我也很坦白的說可能當一旦在台灣這種制度下取得了總統大位他就變成一個不必負責任的這樣子的一個超級大的總統制的這個權力跟權威所以當然大家也不願意再去修正了這才是真實的問題那其實像昨天的公聽會我有聽"},{"start":2403.843,"end":2432.114,"text":"其實當然也有委員說我們其實今天好像是找錯對象了因為對象應該是行政院長可是我們也知道行政院長在目前的制度下其實他等於只是一個總統的執行長一個傀儡其實就算是把他倒閣了其實別的結構不會改變我想在野陣營他也不會接受說今天是重選了國會但是什麼都不改變所以他同時但是因為我們對總統是無法節制的"},{"start":2432.754,"end":2455.362,"text":"那我為什麼剛才特別在我的發言稿中提出所謂左右共治因為台灣最接近的制度其實確實是法國的這個制度我們跟他們最大的不同就在於說他們的總理會選出一定是遵循國會這個多數因為國會這個多數它本身就是一個人民選擇這樣子的一個結果"},{"start":2457.603,"end":2485.477,"text":"那但是在台灣卻是不用這樣子所以我們才會有真正這種少數總統少數票總統少數票國會的這樣子這個狀況造成今天這麼大的僵局那如果我們能夠學習像是法國的這樣的一個制度其實建立的所謂的真的這就是大聯合的這個政府我覺得台灣在制度上才能夠真正有機會往前再走一步否則的話今天剛才已經講過了所有的不管今天是釋憲的"},{"start":2486.477,"end":2515.769,"text":"富裕的就算是倒閣的其實都不能解決任何我們現在行政跟立法之間的僵局事實上我們是從制度面就已經出了大問題如果我們今天不去解決真正制度面的問題只用所謂的繼續現在沿用這樣子只能站在黨派的立場只能黨同伐異只能以少數押拔的方式繼續作為行政上的執政它的問題就永遠不能解決"},{"start":2516.189,"end":2521.531,"text":"以上謝謝好謝謝張祺祿教授下一位我們請陳怡凱教授發言謝謝主席各位委員各位在座的先進來賓大家好"},{"start":2531.584,"end":2545.652,"text":"那今天呢關於這個彈劾案呢申請人他提出的理由是說賴清德總統他違反了憲法第37條總統公佈法律均行政院院長之附屬"},{"start":2547.035,"end":2566.455,"text":"但是我們可以看出行政院院長根本沒有附屬所以說總統也沒有辦法去公佈法律所以從這一點來看賴總統並沒有違反憲法第37條因為這一條明擺的規定要先附屬總統才能夠公佈沒有附屬就根本就沒有公佈的餘地"},{"start":2568.276,"end":2593.769,"text":"這才是合乎憲法第37條然後申請者又指責說這個賴總統違反這個憲法第72條就是這個復議案如果說就是說被退對不起違反這個行政院長違反這個徵修條文第三條第二項第二款也就是說退和復議如果是被"},{"start":2595.53,"end":2619.344,"text":"維持原案的話那麼行政院院長就應該要接受那麼目前跟包括昨天的這個討論呢重點都在所謂的徵修條文第三條第二項第二款所謂的應接受是不是文字上所謂的或是說像申請者所想當然爾的是不是說的意思就是行政院院長就應該要"},{"start":2621.147,"end":2632,"text":"接受 然後變成有接受的義務然後變成有附屬的義務然後總統就有公佈的義務是不是一連串的這個義務然後呢"},{"start":2633.309,"end":2649.527,"text":"然後憂鬱沒有按照這樣的一個義務之旅行所以賴總統跟這個行政院長都違反了憲法那這一條是最大的癥結點所以呢我昨天已經有去澄清了那我們今天再強調一遍就是說這個條文根據這個"},{"start":2653.905,"end":2679.126,"text":"大法官的四字五二零号的解释他明明白白的讲就宪法第五十七条是行政院跟立法院之间的制衡那昨天的学者讲到这个附属呢是对于总统的制衡那这里是有误解的因为呢在制衡的来源呢他是这个附属呢他是为总统"},{"start":2680.205,"end":2697.009,"text":"未來要去公佈法律的行為去負責而不是去制衡總統而是應該是去制衡國會才對那麼四字五二零號也已經明明白白的講這個制度這個設計是行政院對立法院的制衡"},{"start":2698.103,"end":2713.723,"text":"然後是不是徵修條文第三條第二項第二款把它這個辭職把它改掉改成應接受因此這裡的字痕就會改變大法官在4至520號也明明白白的講了"},{"start":2716.005,"end":2737.036,"text":"講說這裡沒有改變這個制衡仍然繼續維持下去那我們就要去討論什麼是行政院跟立法院在憲法第57條的這裡所謂的制衡這制衡不是大家投投票表決然後就相安無事過去就憲法第57條如果說退回服務役被維持原案的話"},{"start":2737.996,"end":2760.071,"text":"這時候行政院院長有兩條路一條呢憲法就規定說他要嘛就應辭辭要不然就是應接受那麼在過去呢憲法學者呢包括劉慶瑞在他的中華民國憲法要義以及李鴻熙教授呢都解釋其實這個解釋也是台大的通說啦就是說呢這一條呢"},{"start":2760.931,"end":2780.596,"text":"就是說如果說在退回富裕被維持原案的話那麼這裡就是一個倒閣因為根據制衡的原理就是不信任投票的意思所以行政院長在這個時候就只能辭職而且是被辭職並沒有可選擇說我不要辭職 那我接受反對的見解是說"},{"start":2782.145,"end":2797.924,"text":"這也是少數見解但當時也有存在就是說呢五十七條有一個總統的這個復議核可權所以總統不是虛位元首那在這裡呢沒有發生主動的倒閣的一個效果而是呢行政院長呢可以選擇是"},{"start":2799.628,"end":2828.931,"text":"接受那无论是赞成说这个倒格说或是不自动倒格说都是认为这一个条文明明白白的就是行政院跟立法院之间的制衡而且明明白白的讲这里跟倒格是有关系的只是说一个是说没有立即发生倒格的效果一说是说必须倒格的效果必须辞职另一说是说没有立即发生倒格的效果可以选择"},{"start":2830.236,"end":2843.155,"text":"接受所以這裡的接受不是說這個法案它照全盤接收的意思而是不發生立即倒閣的效果是這個意思而已那麼徵修條文第三條第二項"},{"start":2844.414,"end":2871.705,"text":"以及第二款跟第三款把這個延續過來只不過說本來是行政院他選擇是辭職或者是接受倒閣或是沒有倒閣那麼現在是變成說僵局還是在也就是說這裡的僵局沒有解決也就制衡在這裡並不是說大家投投票就沒事了而是在這裡形成了立法院跟行政院的意識不一致對這個重大法案的意識不一致"},{"start":2872.085,"end":2897.651,"text":"那這時候呢反而皮球呢是回到了國會這裡這個徵修條文的改變呢就變成說國會可選擇是不是要發動倒閣所以就變成是還有這個第三款的這個倒閣權那麼從這裡的解釋來看的話呢也就是說這僵局呢目前根據我們這個權力制衡的解釋呢並沒有解決而是說留待國會呢再進一步發動倒閣"},{"start":2898.931,"end":2915.265,"text":"那他如果不倒閣的話呢就表示他要妥協他妥協要怎麼辦呢就是法案呢要重新要跟行政院再重新去談出一個各退一步談出一個結果出來所以這裡並沒有所謂的因此呢"},{"start":2915.925,"end":2933.294,"text":"照文藝上從歷史的發展57條的體系性解釋跟第三條第二項第二款第三款的這樣的一個以及所謂的權力制衡的原理在這裡並沒有硬要逼著行政院院長要照盤全說立法院的這個復議案被維持原案的這個結果"},{"start":2934.395,"end":2959.002,"text":"那否則的話問題就解決了根本就不需要再發動倒閣權了但是我們延續過去的這裡所謂的應接受並不是照單全說立法院這時候他退回復義被反夥決之後這樣的一個意識行政院他在這裡仍然是意見不一致那就等著被倒閣但是立法院又不發動倒閣這時候唯一的解釋就是必須妥協而已"},{"start":2959.922,"end":2980.73,"text":"或者是要提起釋憲提起這個憲法訴訟機關正義的這樣的一個憲法訴訟那這裡憲法並不是說都沒有解決的途徑那麼接著就是說另一個也是我剛剛也有提到過了那麼這個附屬他其實就是對抗國會那其實他的意義就是要"},{"start":2983.67,"end":3004.76,"text":"對總統未來他如果公佈法律的話他要為總統這個行為負責所以附屬是為總統的行為負責的他不可能去制衡這個總統他是制衡國會的因此根據德國的學說跟通說的見解跟實務的見解行政院院長就是他的總理他總理他在"},{"start":3006.34,"end":3021.884,"text":"認為法律的程序有瑕疵以及它的內容有違反憲法的時候它可以拒絕附屬總統也可以拒絕公佈因為總統跟總理他們都有單獨的這樣的一個審查權"},{"start":3025.249,"end":3043.825,"text":"這個申請案裡面又說那總統自己解釋憲法自己說這裡的法案違憲然後他就拒絕公佈那是不是總統就是僭越了大法官的職權呢事實上各個憲法機關在行使職權的時候都必須自行先解釋憲法看看他有沒有違憲"},{"start":3045.086,"end":3061.023,"text":"那麼立法院職權行使法第十一條法案在第三讀的時候除非有違憲否則的話只能做文字上的修正這是條文明明白白的規定的也就是說立法委員必須要自行先解釋憲法"},{"start":3061.744,"end":3089.456,"text":"看看這個條文目前要通過的這個法案有沒有違憲若有的話呢要回來調整也就是說立法委員自己也是先解釋了憲法所以並不能說總統是根據他的判斷這裡是有明顯重大的違憲因此就說他僭越了大法官的職權而是每一個憲法機關呢通通必須要遵守憲法都必須要先進行這樣的一個解釋那因此呢綜合我們的這樣的說明呢那總統呢在這裡"},{"start":3091.457,"end":3101.222,"text":"的行為他可以拒絕事實上他沒有他現在也還不到他拒絕公佈因為行政院長根本都還沒有去"},{"start":3103.221,"end":3127.487,"text":"他沒有附屬的話就行政院長拒絕附屬賴總統剛好也沒有可以公佈的一個憲法上的權限因此在這裡並沒有發生說他有違法的問題那麼從德國以及實務上都是說這兩個行政院院長跟總統他們是有權利單獨來進行這樣的一個審查在這個明顯重大違憲是可以拒絕的因此賴總統跟"},{"start":3129.207,"end":3157.056,"text":"跟行政院長並沒有違憲的問題謝謝好謝謝陳教授下一位我們請張亞中教授發言主席各位委員各位先進感謝立法院舉辦這場公聽會這不只是一場程序性的會議而是一個關乎台灣民主憲政是否仍然存活的重要時刻今天我想談的主題是賴清德總統的行為當然已經違憲"},{"start":3158.476,"end":3171.748,"text":"但是因為政治因素彈劾已不再可能當彈劾已經不再可能的時候總統是否已經走上了民選獨裁台灣要這樣的民主嗎首先我誠懇的"},{"start":3173.177,"end":3196.665,"text":"请所有的与会者在今天的公听会中带着两个重要的东西来发言一个是知识一个是良心请暂时放下政党的立场不要先问你站在哪一边而要先问这样做对不对不要急着替任何政党辩护而要先替中华民国的宪法与台湾的民主来负责"},{"start":3197.981,"end":3223.54,"text":"我期待今天在这个场域里出现的发言是建立在专业的知识上是出自于内心良知的判断而不是为了迎合立场服务权利请不要在这样一个攸关宪政命运的公开场合昧着良心违背专业说出自己明知站不住脚的话探索道理最基本的方法就是将心比心换位思考"},{"start":3224.491,"end":3245.67,"text":"我也誠懇的請民進黨的朋友想一想如果今天做出同樣行為的不是賴清德而是一位國民黨籍的總統你們會接受嗎你們會說這是核憲嗎如果答案是否定的那麼今天真正該被捍衛的就不是立場而是憲法與民主的底線"},{"start":3247.096,"end":3263.053,"text":"今天这场公听会的核心不只是总统是否出现因受弹劾的宪政为师,而是一个更根本的问题,当宪政制衡失灵,民主是否正在走向失控,而人民是否还愿意清醒地面对。"},{"start":3264.346,"end":3288.448,"text":"我先談一個最基本卻常常被遺忘的概念民主政治最基本的原則人民是主人選出來的是公僕而不是新的主人但是近年來我們看到的卻是權力越來越集中制衡越來越被視為障礙賴清的總統不但拒絕國會制衡甚至把憲法視為可以隨意揉捏的麵團一樣"},{"start":3290.805,"end":3314.281,"text":"是他权力操作的工具把支持者视为他动员的支援把异议者视为必须清除的对象这已经不是民主治理而是唯我独尊的权力支配我要清楚地说总统必须一线行政而不是用个人的政治意志来取代宪法"},{"start":3315.523,"end":3339.563,"text":"总统是人民选出的最大的一个公仆而不是皇帝也不是可以为所欲为的统治者总统应该遵守的宪法而不是他手上的葵花宝典总统你是人民的公仆而不是那个日月神教的教主任我行中华民国不是你说了算今天的发言我分为四个重点来说明"},{"start":3340.595,"end":3357.326,"text":"第一点赖清德的多项作为已经明确地跨越了宪法的红线完全符合弹劾的要件包括下面五个刚刚几位学者已经讲得非常清楚我就简短地跳过去第一个不公复宪法的违宪"},{"start":3358.126,"end":3378.653,"text":"立法院三讀通過財政收支劃分法修正案行政院賦予遭到否決後總統依法基因公佈但他卻選擇拒絕這不是他的政治判斷而是無財量空間的憲法義務拒絕公佈本身就是違憲第二個不附屬的制度性違憲"},{"start":3379.895,"end":3408.479,"text":"各位在多次修宪以后我们国家的宪法已经倾向于总统制行政院长附属法律是程序上的义务而不是他个人的政治选项赖清德不仅没有要求行政院长依法附属反而纵容他以不附属作为对抗立法院的政治工具破坏了总统行政院长和立法院之间的宪政协力关系这属于制度性的违宪第三个不执行法律的违宪"},{"start":3410.464,"end":3422.264,"text":"宪法申修条文规定负意遭到否决后行政院长立刻就应该接受然而行政部门却以不附属不执行的方式变相的否定国会的决议这已经是实质的危险"},{"start":3423.612,"end":3452.034,"text":"第四个违宪 践踏宪政分立的违宪是否违宪唯有判断标准的司法院大法官行政部门却自行否定立法院通过的法律效益形同于总统与立法院形同于总统与行政院兼任大法官行政权遣越了司法权自行否定的法律效益严重地践踏宪政上的权力分立第五个违宪 破坏民主制衡的违宪"},{"start":3453.052,"end":3480.063,"text":"透过不公布不附属不执行行政权全面的凌驾立法权使立法院在总统任内几乎没有办法制衡行政权这种系统性的破坏民主制衡形成了超级大总统台湾实质上走向了宪政的独裁化总结而言赖清德默许甚至主导不公布不附属不执行国会通过的法律系统性的否定立法行为"},{"start":3481.431,"end":3503.988,"text":"这已经不是政策的争议而是总统拒绝遵守宪法宪政秩序正在被破坏赖清德已经可以自行决定哪些法律是有效哪些是无效立法院已经形同虚设民主制衡机制名存实亡赖清德的违宪行为当然已经完全符合弹劾的红线"},{"start":3505.35,"end":3533.351,"text":"第二个 赖基德上台以后已经呈现清楚的民选独裁的治理模式我简单的分为几点第一点 他把当双少数的处境转换成全面的对抗国会当总统将未配合行政权等同于敌对势力或杂质的时候其实民主就被简化成为赢者全拿输者晋升这就是民主独裁的典型特征"},{"start":3534.5,"end":3559.113,"text":"第二个他滥用话语权压制异议赖政府频繁以国安反渗透抗中保台为理由将不同政治立场监督声音甚至合法的政治主张都贴上了危害国家安全的标签国安经常被无限上纲成为合理化的集权打压反对力量的工具政治的反对不再被视为民主的常态而被视为不忠诚"},{"start":3560.27,"end":3586.385,"text":"第三个他在司法与检调高度的政治化形成寒蝉效应当赖清德执政对在野政治人物异议者的司法动作高度密集同时对于他执政阵营的相关争议却呈现明显的办案迟缓或者低调处理当人民普遍认为骂政府会有风险的时候即使我们台湾还有选举但是民主的实质已经被掏空了"},{"start":3587.245,"end":3613.581,"text":"第四个刚刚也讲了他以政治动员和大罢免来取代制度内的制衡面对国会的制衡赖尽的不是以选举制度内的协商而是动员政治力量情绪诉求与大罢免的作为企图改变立法院现有的政党结构比例当动员被用来迫使议会屈服人民的力量沦为领袖操纵的工具这正是民选独裁最危险的转折点"},{"start":3614.605,"end":3642.039,"text":"第五个他拒绝自我节制否定宪法的惯例我们知道宪政不是钻漏洞的比赛当最高的权力者只问能不能做而不问该不该做的时候民主必然会迅速的对话总结而言赖清德的确是透过选举上台但是他的作为逐步瓦解制衡压缩意义集中权力完全拒绝自我节制与反省这正是民选独裁的标准路径"},{"start":3643.035,"end":3653.222,"text":"第三个部分我想谈的是台湾的民主已经从是非之争退化到立场之争弹劾制度名存实亡是民主宪政失灵的警讯"},{"start":3654.71,"end":3672.945,"text":"各位,彭河需要三分之二立委同意,在现在高度的对立党纪至上的政治文化下,几乎不可能启动。问题不在于门槛,而在于只要总统来自于执政党,便即使明显的违宪,也会被像对面一样全面的护航。"},{"start":3673.959,"end":3690.095,"text":"当台湾的政治只剩下立场不问是非当宪法只在有利的时候被高举不利的时候被践踏那么弹劾制度就从制衡的工具变成了纵容危险的保护网那么最后一点当宪政已经失灵人们愿不愿意觉醒"},{"start":3691.755,"end":3713.762,"text":"各位,我们必须诚实面对一个残酷的现实,在法律上弹劾已经具备条件,在政治上几乎不可能完成。那么这种制度存在却无法运作,权力失衡却无法修正,违宪明确却无法救责的现象,正是台湾民主制度的最大悲剧。出路只有两条,第一条,总统自我节制,回归宪政。"},{"start":3714.582,"end":3731.212,"text":"这在于赖清德的疑念之间但是看起来非常困难那么第二个就是我们人民要与在野的力量集体的觉醒用行动来守住我们的宪法这条路是最根本的因为宪政的独裁者从来不会用温柔的劝说而自我退让"},{"start":3732.403,"end":3747.07,"text":"各位我們在野黨基本上要堅持支持者也不能只是在網路上憤怒而不願意走上街頭同樣的我希望民進黨的支持者也不要只在乎立場而不願意用憲法而不願意讓憲法繼續被踐踏扭曲"},{"start":3748.931,"end":3777.221,"text":"根本不在乎而一些中間選民又選擇冷漠犬儒事不關己那麼最終的結果只有一個獨裁者得逞憲法崩解台灣的民主名存實亡最後我想講一句話今天我們討論的其實不只是賴清德是否應該被彈劾而是中華民國的憲法還要不要救台灣的民主還要不要繼續的沉淪謝謝大家謝謝張教授接下來請林俊宏律師發言"},{"start":3784.261,"end":3810.62,"text":"謝謝主席很榮幸今天來參與今天的公聽會我想今天來談彈劾總統這件事情我想我們是不是要先回到一個本質來看待今天到底發生了什麼事情在我們的憲政上我自己看到的是目前就是憲法兩個權力上的僵局行政權跟立法權的僵局"},{"start":3811.741,"end":3825.559,"text":"那我们行政权跟立法权的僵局在制度上有没有解我们在宪法的制度设计上有解怎么解我们依照宪法战修条文第三条第二项第三款"},{"start":3826.814,"end":3853.609,"text":"這個時候我們的制度設計上應該是要對行政院院長提出不信任案然後進行國會改選然後訴諸新的民意由新的民意來決定來處理說這個行政權跟立法權之間僵局該如何解決這是一條很清楚而且也是一條很成熟的一個憲政的民主路徑這個在其他國家其實也都可以觀察得到"},{"start":3854.83,"end":3878.597,"text":"當然有很多的先進都會講說那好像我們的行政權除了我們的行政院長外好像還有個總統那總統怎麼辦那我們的憲法機制裡面怎麼處理其實我們在憲法機制裡面在處理總統的部分大概有兩個工具我想這個之前先進大概也都有提到一個是彈劾就是我們今天坐在這裡的原因另外一個是罷免"},{"start":3880.145,"end":3906.807,"text":"那當然也有人認為說這兩種工具不夠啦其實都沒辦法實質去處理到總統那怎麼辦還有一個方法修憲啊我們覺得我們制度不足的時候我們是不是可以考慮修憲呢那可是在沒有修憲之前制度給我們就是這兩條路沒有第三條路那我要說明一下這兩條路在談什麼事情這兩條路談何在處理的是法律責任"},{"start":3908.343,"end":3934.695,"text":"罷免要處理的原則上是政治責任我想這兩條路徑在我們的制度設計上是清楚的從我們的彈劾的制度來看我們最後的審查的機關是誰是憲法法庭那憲法法庭它處理的不會是政治問題它要處理的是說我們的憲法規範有沒有遭到重大的違反所以彈劾的審查標的合理的理解就是總統有沒有違反了憲法的重大義務或規範"},{"start":3935.769,"end":3958.309,"text":"至於政策好不好決定對不對這個方向大家喜不喜歡那是政治責任的問題大家要走的是罷免不是彈劾接下來我們再回來看看說我們這兩個提案的理由第一個理由他談的是行政院長不附屬這件事情"},{"start":3959.639,"end":3973.224,"text":"其實昨天的討論跟剛剛的幾位先進的說明我們大概可以得到一個結論行政院院長的附屬權應該是在憲政上行政院院長的獨立的權限"},{"start":3976.902,"end":4002.219,"text":"憲政上行政院長的獨立權限這點我昨天到現在聽下來其實好像沒有太大的爭議那當然中間有一些小的不同的看法有的人認為說行政院長的附屬權是要來對抗總統的有些人認為說這個附屬權除了可以對抗總統之外也可以對抗立法院好 不管他可以對抗的對象是誰這個權利是行政院長的"},{"start":4003.703,"end":4025.499,"text":"如果大家覺得是說行政院長去行使這個權利或不行使這個權利是好或者是不好那接下來的問題是那你要追究的人是誰應該是行政院長吧應該是行政院長啊那怎麼會去選擇說用這個理由說我們要來試試看要來彈劾總統"},{"start":4027.102,"end":4046.728,"text":"所以我們在這邊現在我們看到的一個狀況是什麼我們用一個不是屬於總統職權的行為然後也不是總統的權利要去追究總統的法律責任甚至要彈劾總統這個在憲法的理解上至少我在法律的理解上我認為是完全說不通的完全沒有道理"},{"start":4049.555,"end":4065.248,"text":"如果真的要彈劾總統那從制度上你就要告訴我們說總統你做了什麼違反了憲法的哪個重大義務而不是把行政院長的職權的選擇轉化成對總統的彈劾理由這個在制度的選擇上其實很奇怪"},{"start":4066.297,"end":4092.196,"text":"所以從這個結果來看的話其實讓人懷疑說提案人的想法到底是在想什麼他是真的要追究法律責任嗎還是彈劾只是本質上它只是一個工具化的行使它有其他的特殊的目的呢第二個我們看到提案理由上有第二個理由是關於台積電赴美投資這個部分這個在這兩天的討論其實比較少一點當然這一題"},{"start":4093.971,"end":4118.037,"text":"比較單純因為其實它好像不是法律問題它看起來好像比較像是一個政策決定那如果是一個政策決定你可以喜歡你也可以不喜歡你可以支持你也可以反對你也可以認為這個方向是錯的可是這是政治責任的範疇啊剛剛跟各位分享的是說政治責任的範疇要怎麼處理好像也不是要走彈劾這條路徑"},{"start":4119.909,"end":4147.388,"text":"更何況我們現在看看說從現實狀況來說台積電目前的經營狀況我覺得它是一張每個人都想要得到的一張股票我也蠻想得到的只是我沒有真正要檢討的是說在這個制度上到底這邊這個是不是能夠成為彈劾的理由那要檢討的也只能是政治選擇的取捨而不是憲法層面上的取捨的違反"},{"start":4148.22,"end":4172.521,"text":"那既然這樣的話如果說我們認為說把台積電變得這麼好應該要負政治責任那就負政治責任啊讓大家看看說這個好還是不好啊所以從這個來看的話也是可以知道的就是說這個提案的理由好像也不是彈劾要處理的事情啊那我們硬是要把它放在彈劾的框架裡面結果是什麼我想大家心裡有數啊"},{"start":4173.823,"end":4195.858,"text":"所以我們在理解完這兩個提案理由之後,其實我們不難得出一個結論。今天大家坐在這邊討論彈劾總統在實質上、在憲政的意義上、在程序上或是結論目標的達成上是沒有意義的。"},{"start":4197.864,"end":4214.589,"text":"不是因為彈劾制度不重要是因為這兩個提案本身就不可能用來真的彈劾總統所以這也就像我剛剛說的讓人家合理的懷疑說提案人真正的想法到底是不是要啟動一個憲法意義上的彈劾程序"},{"start":4217.093,"end":4241.991,"text":"那接下來要說,那好啦,不管怎麼樣,提案人還是啟動了嘛,還是做了這件事情。我想要再提的就是,那總統要不要就這個事情到立法院來,來進行聽證。我想這件事情也蠻單純的,因為113,憲判9,已經講得很清楚了,總統並沒有出席的法律義務跟憲法義務。"},{"start":4244.022,"end":4270.205,"text":"立法院可以邀請總統來可是立法院也只能邀請至於總統有沒有義務到立法院來從法條上 從憲法的制度上目前看不出來有這樣的義務更何況我剛剛前面提到的我們回到實質上這兩個"},{"start":4272.422,"end":4291.653,"text":"彈劾的理由 主要的彈劾理由這兩個彈劾的理由就不是對於真正法律責任的追究所進行的理由來說明啊那這樣子的話立法院去邀請總統出席的必要性跟正當性當然也就更加的薄弱啦所以從這個提案來說的話其實我心裡覺得真的是"},{"start":4300.888,"end":4327.328,"text":"有點耗費大家的資源國家寶貴的資源所以我想回到事件的本質目前的狀況就是憲法權力間的僵局行政權跟立法權的僵局在權力分立底下每個權力都是一樣的都是平等的自然就會有權力之間不同意見的時候就會有權力之間有事情沒辦法解決的時候"},{"start":4329.417,"end":4354.948,"text":"有些國家有完整或者是比較好的解決的制度路徑我們國家憲法上的解決的制度路徑就是島格所以認為說我們目前碰到這樣的僵局我們就回到我們合理的制度路徑去我們要回到島格的這個路徑再次提到是說如果我們對於我們現在現有的憲政路徑制度如果設計不滿意"},{"start":4357.452,"end":4381.591,"text":"我們覺得應該要增加其他的路徑或進行其他的設計我們應該要開始討論的是修憲而不是在現有的框架之下啟動一個永遠得不到結果的路徑然後耗費寶貴的國家資源讓大家一起坐在這邊做一件沒有辦法永遠達不到目標的事情以上"},{"start":4384.124,"end":4411.714,"text":"好 謝謝林律師下一位我們請彭錦鵬教授發言主席各位先進很榮幸能夠參與這個公聽會但是我的內心其實是感覺到非常非常的遺憾彈劾這件事情在第一個案子裡面講得非常清楚我基本上我是贊同的"},{"start":4412.642,"end":4438.884,"text":"但是第二個案子很顯然並沒有很精準的來針對總統所應該扮演的憲法上的一些義務所以我今天的發言包含兩個部分第一個部分賴清德是一個違憲的總統第二個部分賴清德是違憲慣犯的總統剛剛亞中兄講得非常好"},{"start":4440.352,"end":4462.615,"text":"所有的理論我也都支持但是今天我們公聽會的重點其實只有一個那就是總統到底有沒有違憲所以我們必須要來加以審理但是我也必須要講說我們這一次的第一個案子的彈劾案基本上是宣誓性的"},{"start":4463.735,"end":4479.853,"text":"原因是就算立法院討論了然後經過所有的這些流程但是要得到三分之二立法委員的同意那很顯然幾乎是不可能所以我今天的發言其實是針對著我們的民進黨立法委員"},{"start":4486.431,"end":4512.166,"text":"原因是你能夠正視一個總統居然可以光明正大像無賴一樣的違憲嗎因為我們從第一個案子裡面可以很清楚看到所有的程序一路都已經走到了復議案而復議是失敗的"},{"start":4513.581,"end":4541.395,"text":"在宪法的规定里边非常清楚互议失败从2025年的12月5日互议失败开始算现在已经是41天了这41天里边宪法没有任何的明文规定说那要怎么办如果总统不公布的话怎么办宪法是没有一个是虚制的"},{"start":4543.186,"end":4570.944,"text":"每一個字都要遵行當代表人民的立法院的多數通過了法律了總統就只能夠公佈不公佈的責任必須大概要由憲法法院去審理但是在這之前"},{"start":4572.025,"end":4598.018,"text":"我相信總統應該要做的是說我用什麼樣的理由來爭取全民的同意而壓迫國民黨跟民眾黨再次修改這個收支發分法在政治上只有這樣的否則的話你就是違憲所以這違憲的現實呢就讓我們想起說賴總統現在正在進入"},{"start":4601.004,"end":4624.111,"text":"一個階段叫做不進市議會的2.0版而且已經四十一天了彈劾畢竟是憲法裡面終極的究責條款我們要特別慎重但是遺憾的是"},{"start":4625.93,"end":4653.462,"text":"衡量賴清德在首罰附憲的記錄上充滿瑕疵甚至出現極為嚴重的違憲慣犯的記錄那麼受到立法院的彈劾我覺得是有必要的那我第二部分我就進入談到賴清德是違憲慣犯的總統第一項不進市議會賴清德擔任台南市長長達八個月"},{"start":4656.477,"end":4666.56,"text":"那個天數有所變動但是差不多就是八個月市府官員不進議會被監察院稱作憲政的惡例加以彈劾監察院的彈劾文裡邊認為這一舉動是首開地方自治史上官員集體不進議會之惡例違反地方制度法"},{"start":4683.891,"end":4711.284,"text":"宣誓條例的規定嚴重灼傷現代民主法治國基本原則欲越憲法與地方制度法規範地方自治團體首長行政權之基本界限架空地方立法權動搖民主社會基本核心這一段彈劾文剛剛好就可以用在這一次的彈劾案也就是"},{"start":4712.182,"end":4729.498,"text":"他蔑視了民主跟法治的基本原則要守法守憲第二點賴清德主導大罷免否定中華民國憲政架構違背總統誓詞"},{"start":4736.095,"end":4762.741,"text":"當2024年1月13號選舉那一天晚上大概7點半的時候台灣2300萬同胞透過選舉就已經確定了嘲笑野大的事實在民進黨陳水扁在任的時候他也是同樣的情況但是他基本上是遵守憲法規定的"},{"start":4763.86,"end":4782.107,"text":"縱然他也覺得很委屈可是他也都遵守憲法規定賴清德在大選之後立刻立刻立刻附和民進黨立法院黨團總召柯建民推動大罷免換句話說台灣人民在2024年1月13號的選舉"},{"start":4793.414,"end":4812.185,"text":"賴清德是不接受這個結果的那是太嚴重的事情了這不是我講的也不是賴清德講的是柯建民講的說推動大罷免賴清德密謀大罷免"},{"start":4813.407,"end":4838.556,"text":"然後2024大選之後馬上就決定要搞大罷免他每週三固定和總統賴清德開會並報告各項步驟總統皆知情換句話說賴清德主導大罷免否定中華民國人民的"},{"start":4839.827,"end":4868.524,"text":"民主定期合法選舉的合法性這太可恥了推動大罷免在本質上就是違憲的行為否定合法定期選舉的合法性否定民意的多數否定中華民國憲法的憲政架構總而言之它就是否定中華民國憲法違背總統誓詞於必遵守憲法盡忠執著"},{"start":4871.018,"end":4896.523,"text":"第三點賴清德違背積極提名大法官的憲法義務我是憲法大法官任期制度的設計者憲法徵修條文第五條如果稱之為彭錦鵬條款也是正確的第五條的條款跟各位報告也是我第一次公開的講"},{"start":4898.508,"end":4918.747,"text":"條文的文字就是我們最受尊敬的吳庚大法官幫忙我抄你條文的。基於我們當時有紳士協議,我沒有在他生前公布,但是我現在可以告訴各位,確實就是這樣子。"},{"start":4920.902,"end":4948.87,"text":"憲法徵求條文第五條規定的是大法官15人並以其中一人為院長一人為副院長由總統提名立法院同意任命在我們的憲法訴訟法裡面規定大法官人數應任期屆滿辭職免職或死亡"},{"start":4950.051,"end":4974.081,"text":"未打15人總統應於2個月內補足提名而大法官現有總額要10人以上才能夠參與評議且同意違憲宣告人數不得低於9人但是我們剛剛發生的事情是5個大法官就"},{"start":4975.407,"end":4986.918,"text":"公然的 毫不支持的沒有任何的法學修養的這種情況之下公佈所謂的憲法判決案"},{"start":4988.57,"end":5011.127,"text":"所以總結來講我要說的是賴總統違憲而且是違憲的慣犯他應該要好好的深自反省否則我們未來的四年未來的三年大概也會碰到大法官人數一直空缺而沒有辦法審核他的"},{"start":5012.495,"end":5035.446,"text":"彈劾案就算民進黨的立法委員同意彈劾案好謝謝彭教授下一位我們請周威廷局長發言好主席大家好各位早安我想我今天也是跟我們彭老師一樣懷著一顆沉重的心情來促進這場公聽會因為我們要討論的是我們中華民國的總統彈劾的問題"},{"start":5041.57,"end":5068.139,"text":"中華民國總統彈劾的問題在現場諸多學者專家老師面前我當然不算學者甚至連專家也不算但是我是一個從事警職42年的老警察為了我們警察退休金的不當被砍山多年來我寫了將近50多篇的文章投書各大媒體不斷為我們警察的權益為我們警察爭公道但是呢"},{"start":5072.385,"end":5079.61,"text":"這個政府給我們答案永遠是將警察視同一般人緣 橫憑考量彈劾"},{"start":5086.707,"end":5113.927,"text":"就是整屆公務人員有沒有違法失職在違法的部分我想也都專家學者都已經討論到我請就我們賴慶德總統失職的部分來做個探討失職簡單的說是說在職守上有沒有疏忽職責有沒有善盡職責有沒有為而不為 為而不當當為而不為 不當而而為我就有最熟悉的警察退休金被砍三來討論"},{"start":5117.096,"end":5136.47,"text":"我想在年金改革一時我們警察人就認為我們應該跟同志性高的軍人所得替代率等同結果呢我們的結果就是剛才講過的適同一般公務人員 和平考量但是真的有和平考量嗎就以軍人來說軍人有國軍醫院 榮民總醫院 三軍總醫院"},{"start":5148.294,"end":5169.591,"text":"總共我算得過 有16所 各位有沒有聽過有一所警察醫院行政院底下有國軍退出軍官兵輔導委員會各位有沒有聽過輔導警察的委員會 或者是司 或者科 或者局處警察又有8萬多人 警察很多都是50歲 50歲退休他們也需要有第二春 可是這個政府有照顧過他們"},{"start":5172.97,"end":5200.82,"text":"基於尊重軍人跟老師一百零一年前軍人跟警察是免所得罪的警察不但沒有免所得罪甚至我們是司法警察連司法津貼都領不到教師有將近三個月的寒暑假我們警察 全國警察放一天假試試看看這個社會亂成什麼樣子公務員 朝九晚五每天上班下班回家吃晚飯"},{"start":5202.304,"end":5227.156,"text":"例假日造休 警察可以這樣子嗎所以有感於此在113年10月份我在聯合報投書了一篇錦霄出生入死權益呢副標題是為接年殉職的同仁感到不值為什麼不值"},{"start":5231.311,"end":5258.849,"text":"我們沒有受到公平的待遇但是危險性最高根據內政部統計106年到114年警察因公死亡的人數有47個人平均每年9.4個人因公受傷的人4837個人每年平均967個人換句話說每年我們警察因公傷亡的人數是所有軍人公務員教師的總和還要多可見我們警察工作是多麼的危險多麼的辛勞"},{"start":5259.966,"end":5276.38,"text":"根據那警政署的統計,2011年到2021年,警察平均的死亡年齡是71.69歲。我們全國民平均的年齡是,死亡年齡是79.84歲。我們警察退休後,早死了8.15年。自由時報2017年3月20號統計,100年到104年,警察平均的死亡年齡是69.6歲。"},{"start":5284.076,"end":5307.736,"text":"我們平均國人平均死亡年齡78.84歲換句話說我們早死了9.24歲總而言之我們比一般的國民警察退休後早死了八九年為什麼僥倖活到退休的還會早死呢早死了八九年就是因為我們超時工作日夜顛倒 勤務不正常 壓力大甚至讓他還記得宜蘭最近副總統到宜蘭去"},{"start":5315.085,"end":5340.487,"text":"一個警察在休假還被叫回來結果被撤職撞傷臟器破裂大腿骨折可見我們警察工作是多麼的辛苦多麼的危險可是呢這個政府給了我們公平的待遇如果說公務機關的人員是這個政府的員工或者子弟總統行政院長就是大家長"},{"start":5343.083,"end":5367.757,"text":"隔壁鄰居都看不下去了認為說你不該孤獨 你的孩子 你的孩子 你的員工所以行政院藍白立委在去年1月三讀通過了警察人員人事條例35條修正案要恢復我們的所值替代率甚至民眾黨黃國昌主席"},{"start":5371.055,"end":5395.529,"text":"張祺凱立委也都多次公開說明民眾黨經過兩次民調70%民意支持警察的年改提高可是呢這個法律三途通過總統公告我們的行政院依然認為自然難行據橫評考量連預算都不編 甚至申請釋憲暫時處分"},{"start":5400.854,"end":5429.842,"text":"有樣學樣軍人待遇條例教職人員撫恤之前退職條例公務人員撫恤之前退職辦法停砍1.5%也是一樣行政院仍然認為自然難行申請釋憲考試院比照辦理"},{"start":5431.735,"end":5450.699,"text":"他們剋誰的十三名會剋誰是五人大法官人數不足的五人大法官會做違憲解釋總統身為五院院長五院之首獨攬了行政權獨攬了司法權甚至剝奪了立法院的立法權這樣的憲政危機我們不應該提出來彈劾不應該緊張嗎我們民眾不應該覺得恐懼嗎"},{"start":5478.089,"end":5506.22,"text":"然而我們賴清德總統在這樣的情形之下仍然悍然一意孤行地堅持到底我在這裡提出來前勞動部長何佩珊接受訪問說過外界不要迷失"},{"start":5507.216,"end":5516.861,"text":"不要以為砍年金才是改革強調撥補砍年金才是改革不要以為砍年金才是改革強調撥補也是改革我也藉由這個機會提出兩個觀點給大家參考就是立法的形成自由跟政策的可變性"},{"start":5538.103,"end":5563.856,"text":"立法院本來就是代表民意的最高機關 立法機關自然有其立法形成的自由 乃有各項法案的提出包括剛才講過的警察人事條例修正案 軍人待遇條例 甚至停砍1.58等都是年金改革的制度 即在高度的政策"},{"start":5564.818,"end":5591.35,"text":"性的事項及屬於高度政策性的事項尤其退休金制度的設計調整與否是否繼續改革屬於立法機關高度輕身自由的範圍立法者可以砍也可以不砍甚至停砍反此本身並不等於違憲因為憲法並沒有要求一定要改革到某種程度所以如果我們賴清德總統仍然一意孤行"},{"start":5596.883,"end":5606.649,"text":"當獨裁成為事實我想彈劾就成為義務當然我們老師彭景鵬老師教授講的彈劾可能不會過只是一個宣示性的意義"},{"start":5607.611,"end":5631.525,"text":"耐勁的總統甚至認為說我在台南市就曾經被彈劾過我是一個彈劾的慣犯對我來講可能是一個勳章但是很抱歉這枚勳章可能是一枚恥辱的勳章再說一遍這枚勳章可能是恥辱的勳章一刻很久遠將永遠有流傳 謝謝好 謝謝周局長"},{"start":5634.022,"end":5643.398,"text":"我們現在學者專家都已經發言完畢休息十分鐘休息之後進行審查小組委員的詢問現在休息"},{"start":5663.55,"end":5665.072,"text":"我按掉"},{"start":6252.386,"end":6275.762,"text":"我們現在繼續開會,進行審查小組委員的詢問首先請陳委員召之發言主席、專家學者們、各位同事、各位媒體朋友以及關心台灣民主憲政的每一位夥伴台灣今天正在經歷一場由現任總統所主導的憲政危機"},{"start":6277.594,"end":6289.606,"text":"憲法是國家跟人民之間的權責約束也可以說就是國家跟人民的契約每一個國人都要遵守"},{"start":6291.437,"end":6313.614,"text":"身為國家元首更是負有最高強度盡忠職守的憲法義務但是當總統所屬的政黨成為國會的少數的時候很遺憾的總統沒有選擇溝通卻是選擇對抗首創國家憲政史上的一個惡例"},{"start":6315.547,"end":6335.008,"text":"事實上立法院自第十一屆開議以來行政院除了違法 違三讀通過的條例 編列預算還發生行政院 行政院長不附屬已經復議 復議失敗的法案而總統卻竟表贊同"},{"start":6336.175,"end":6364.497,"text":"在民主法治社會所有的公民都非常清楚每一部法案的成立不是個人的好惡而是取決於法案內容是否符合法治國的原則跟憲法的規範對於是否合憲由於憲法法庭應該由憲法法庭做最終的判斷不是由總統盡致宣告為先或默許行政院長以不附屬的方式"},{"start":6367.501,"end":6383.794,"text":"踐踏民意代表所提出的一個法律也就是只有憲法法庭才能夠做最終的判斷才能夠對法律做出到底是合憲或違憲的一個判斷總統跟行政院長完全沒有這個權利"},{"start":6385.731,"end":6402.817,"text":"但是總統跟行政院長的作為充分顯示現任的總統不只是企圖削弱國會的立法權更是踐踏憲法所保障的司法獨立掠奪原本只屬於大法官的憲政裁判權"},{"start":6404.515,"end":6425.041,"text":"針對以下事由賴清德總統對立法院三讀通過經行政院附議失敗的財政收支劃分法透過行政院長以不附屬的方式來配合有違憲失職台灣民眾黨上個月提出了彈劾案獲得跨黨派59位立委的連署面對這樣專政的政府"},{"start":6427.389,"end":6452.174,"text":"作为最高的民意机关我们有义务守护台湾人的权利我们更有义务要唤醒总统不要成为破坏宪政的凶手去年11月14日立法院依法三读通过修正财政收支划分法行政院提出复议之后立法院已经再次表决维持原决议"},{"start":6453.769,"end":6477.731,"text":"並依程序私請總統公佈那麼依照憲法第72條總統必須在10日內公佈這是憲法賦予總統的義務不是建議 更不是參考總統沒有權利拒絕履行程序性的義務然而 遺憾的賴總統沒有依循憲法形式反而在法律三讀通過之後"},{"start":6479.366,"end":6503.559,"text":"召集了執政黨立委在黨中央開辯當會密謀討論要以不附屬或是附屬後不執行的方式來決定法律要不要執行這是赤裸裸的踐踏民主法治而台灣的民主憲政一再被挑戰台灣民眾黨立院黨團要向賴政府表達最嚴正的抗議此外"},{"start":6505.117,"end":6523.405,"text":"附屬制度在憲政制度的設計上它本來是行政院長用來制衡總統權力的工具是行政院對立法院負責的一個機制絕對不是行政院用來否決國會三讀法律的手段憲法非常清楚的規定"},{"start":6524.645,"end":6547.782,"text":"行政院如果認為國會通過的法律至愛難行可以提出復議但復議失敗之後呢就必須接受立法院的決議否則復議制度還有什麼意義呢行政院乾脆不要復議了直接用不附屬的方式讓法律消失好了如果今天才劃法可以被選擇性的不公佈那麼明天是不是牢記法"},{"start":6549.349,"end":6568.811,"text":"公投法甚至任何法律都可能因為總統不喜歡就被擱置了呢如此立法院三讀的意義是什麼人民選出的立委還有實質的權利嗎如果接受這樣的做法代表台灣不再是法治國家而是因人設置的人治國家"},{"start":6570.495,"end":6585.885,"text":"行政院和總統向社會大眾一再透過話語權宣稱有些法律違憲有損國家安全破壞財政紀律本席要再強調一次是否違背憲法從來不是行政權說了算"},{"start":6586.966,"end":6608.846,"text":"如果行政院可以自行判定 那麼憲法法庭存在的意義是什麼大法官存在的意義是什麼權力分立的核心原則就是禁止擴權任何機關都不能夠以削弱其他機關為代價來擴張自己的權力但是現在立法院被架空了司法權被取代了"},{"start":6609.867,"end":6636.505,"text":"所有的執行判決否決都集中在一黨一人身上這不是民主這是走向獨裁有人說憲法法庭是因為暫時無法審理所以行政部門可以自行判斷但真正的事實是造成憲法法庭空轉的就是總統自己提名大法官是總統的憲法職責那麼立法院行使同意權是一個制衡"},{"start":6637.386,"end":6662.812,"text":"立法院不同意總統就必須重新提名啊不能用法庭不能運作為藉口來否決國會通過的法律這就像是他把鑰匙先丟掉了然後說我門打不開我必須破門而入這真的是執政黨毫無忌憚的一個以蠻橫凌駕憲政一百多年前袁世凱就是用穩定國家"},{"start":6663.872,"end":6674.499,"text":"避免内乱的民意逐步削弱议会消灭反对的声音但是后来人民发现了他夺走的不是个人的权利而是所有人的未来"},{"start":6675.799,"end":6700.425,"text":"民主或許不會一夕被奪走但是一旦被侵蝕了步步都可能造成無法逆轉的後果這是歷史給我們的警訊我們今天在台灣看到的其實正是類似的危機總統領導的行政團隊企圖架空立法院僭越司法權已經嚴重破壞憲法制度的底線過去多年來我陪著民進黨"},{"start":6701.725,"end":6713.424,"text":"從民進黨還沒有出生到成熟長大從街頭運動到帶領主要的民間社團民進黨的前輩啟發我對民主的認知就是政黨政治"},{"start":6714.485,"end":6738.153,"text":"有監督有制衡它的基礎就是憲政法治今日賴總統縱容執政黨利用龐大的行政資源製造社會對立消耗國力曾幾何時台灣人民在公開場合談論政治會懷著被批判的恐懼不敢在社群團體暢談自己的理想跟政治信念請問民進黨你還有資格紀念鄭南榮嗎"},{"start":6745.505,"end":6754.192,"text":"總統沒有責任嗎這是號稱民主進步的政黨主席的領導風格嗎已經執政十年的民主進步黨不用檢討嗎"},{"start":6755.953,"end":6776.266,"text":"很遺憾的即使已經升為國家的總統賴總統依然擺脫不了民進黨黨主席的思維以黨領政的風格本席要再次重申台灣民眾黨跟中國國民黨對第十六屆總統賴清德所提出的彈劾案是憲法賦予立法機關的最後一道防線"},{"start":6777.467,"end":6794.401,"text":"這是對賴總統的憲政警示也是多數人民最嚴正的忠告總統再大也大不過憲法權力再強也強不過人民總統再大也大不過憲法權力再強也強不過人民如果我們選擇沉默"},{"start":6795.982,"end":6813.821,"text":"接受總統選擇性的遵守憲法那麼明天後天每一條法律都可以面臨相同的對待我們做這個決定不是為了政黨利益而是為了國家與人民我們要告訴掌權者人民才是國家的主人台灣的民主得來不易啊"},{"start":6814.361,"end":6839.922,"text":"不能讓他在看似合法 實則 專斷的操作上慢慢消失台灣需要的是尊重憲法 尊重國會 尊重人民的政府而不是走向集權之路的政府請記得憲法第二條國家的主權屬於國民全體不是任何政黨 也不是總統個人台灣的所有權狀不在執政黨手上 也不在總統個人的手上謝謝"},{"start":6842.708,"end":6843.97,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員接下來我們請省發會委員發言"},{"start":6851.238,"end":6873.302,"text":"好 主席今天所與會的各位學者專家在場各位媒體記者先生女士朋友我想今天我們希望說這樣子的一個公聽會大家也邀請了學者也邀請了專家我們是希望說是針對這個我們的這個今天這個所謂彈劾案的這個憲法的相關的法理來進行討論不過剛才我整場聽下來比較像是一個政論節目那這個部分我比較感到遺憾"},{"start":6881.044,"end":6900.116,"text":"我想在我開始討論這個憲政問題之前,我首先跟大家一起齊文共賞。大家來看看這個畫面上,秀出的是這次我們立法院議案關係文書,由本院委員傅坤祺、羅志強、林佩祥、黃國昌等60人所提出來的這個說話。今天我們為什麼開這個公聽會,就是因為這篇齊文。"},{"start":6901.937,"end":6930.898,"text":"那我們來看這篇檄文他這裡面說簡單講他要彈劾賴清德總統他爐裂了大概這麼多大一篇爐裂大概就是六個理由第一個理由指揮授意行政院長左榮泰濫編預算這個部分第一個指揮授意這個部分你們提出指控的你們要有負舉證責任這個哪裡他在用什麼方式指揮授意第二"},{"start":6932.06,"end":6954.361,"text":"編列預算是行政院專屬的權利依照憲法第59條由行政院編列預算不管他怎麼編編列預算就是行政院的權利至於他預算編得好或不好你同意或不同意那是立法院的權利立法院的審查依照憲法第63條立法院就審查你覺得他爛編你就刪除你覺得他爛編你就全部凍結"},{"start":6956.411,"end":6984.277,"text":"那你今天因為這個你今天把這個男孩當作一個彈劾那你要彈劾你再怎麼樣你也說預算是行政院長編的你也來對付行政院長啊結果你說用這個理由你來彈劾總統這個是這篇文章的第一期第二期這個說第二個理由他說因為造謠抹黑從來彈劾的理由都是看總統做什麼事而不是看那個人說什麼話"},{"start":6986.291,"end":7010.798,"text":"照謠抹黑一樣啊 你要舉證啊他照了什麼謠 抹了什麼黑沒有 就這四個字然後再來用言論 意思說總統講什麼話所以我們要來彈劾他 這個是第二期第三期 利用司法迫害議題這個我們檢察官依照職權追訴犯罪法院他依照職權發現真實進行什麼依法審判"},{"start":7012.348,"end":7028.594,"text":"這個你說用司法迫害異己 舉證啊 哪會講啊第四個 發動大惡霸 摧毀臺灣民主什麼時候人民行使依法 行使選舉罷免 創制 復決結果要來彈劾總統 這個邏輯我完全不懂"},{"start":7033.837,"end":7060.849,"text":"人民行使依法行使啊它是違法行使的罷免嗎不是依法行使選舉罷免創制覆決你以此為理由來罷免總統第五 放任台積電赴美投資各位 台積電赴美投資所以要彈劾賴清德這個是不是這篇文章的第五期那為什麼鴻海去投資中國那也要來罷免賴清德好了"},{"start":7062.669,"end":7074.971,"text":"這個一個民間公司的投資行為你拿來當作罷免總統的理由這些都不值一審啦我剛講這些都不值一審真正關鍵的是我們今天希望討論的第六個理由"},{"start":7075.899,"end":7104.443,"text":"你們認為說行政院長以不附屬為由來針對這個才化法行政院長不附屬這才是今天大概是最重要的關鍵剛剛大家談的有50%集中在這個議題上面所以我要來談一談這個所謂的不附屬這個問題退一萬步講啦就算這個是理由那也是行政院長不附屬啊行政院長不附屬按照憲法總統就不能公佈啊"},{"start":7105.877,"end":7121.88,"text":"所以總統不但沒有違憲而且他是完全是合憲的那至於行政院長不附屬你說行政院長不附屬違不違憲我們現在才討論但就算他違憲你們也用憲法的手段來處理行政院長怎麼會來彈劾總統呢這個又是這篇文章的第六集那我們來談這個所謂的附屬權剛剛也有學者提到"},{"start":7133.206,"end":7157.645,"text":"当初中华民国宪法有关于这个我先看这边很多政治学的教授还有我自己的老师都在这里当初所谓政治学大学第一课打开David Easton的政治学第一课第一个图是input output第二个图这是什么这是权力分立三个权力check and balance行政 立法 司法三个权力它各有各的"},{"start":7158.425,"end":7183.403,"text":"我們看這每一個權力之間都有兩個箭頭一個是我制衡你的權力一個是你制衡我的權力三權分立美國的也是這樣日本的也是這樣中華民國比較特別五權但是我們在談中華民國的憲法設計它還是基本上在三權之間它還是彼此有互相制衡的權力這個是憲法制度這最基本的權力分立制度的原理那我國因為"},{"start":7184.69,"end":7203.74,"text":"原本最初當初的中華民國憲法本文由張君邁他所起草的中華民國憲法本文他其實整個是傾向內閣制的也就是剛剛大家所講的原本我們憲法所規定的行政院長附屬權原本是用來制衡總統的沒有錯當初設計憲法本文的時候"},{"start":7205.743,"end":7219.237,"text":"他是來制衡總統的他代表著內閣制很重要的一個精神這是當初我們中華民國憲法本文設計的時候但是蔣介石當總統他不甘願啊所以他用動員刊亂時期臨時條款把他整個變成總統制我們中華民國憲政體制上除了蔣經國當行政院長以外沒有內閣制過"},{"start":7232.002,"end":7251.771,"text":"當初原本附屬權是屬於是因為當初的行政院長必須經過立法院同意所以他具有強大的內閣制精神這是憲法本文但是我們在修憲的時候把這個行政院長"},{"start":7253.274,"end":7279.937,"text":"必須經立法院同意我們把它拿掉了拿掉了我們在這個哪一年修憲修憲的時候把這個行政院長任命行政院長必須經過立法院同意拿掉了使得我們憲法中修條文之後的內閣制精神整個降低了行政院長基本上變成總統任命所以因為他的權力來源來自總統所以行政院長沒有什麼制衡總統這回事的"},{"start":7280.999,"end":7305.336,"text":"所以如果附屬權理論上是制衡總統的話那時候附屬權就應該全部拿掉了但是我們留著我們不是全部保留我們再修憲一次當年為了這個你說第一個拒絕附屬的行政院長是左翁派嗎不是第一個拒絕附屬的行政院長是郝柏春他當年針對蔣仲林的人事案他拒絕附屬"},{"start":7307.392,"end":7325.813,"text":"所以因為好柏村的拒絕附屬因此我們又進行修憲不是我們是那時候國民黨主導的修憲又把這個針對人事案的附屬權拿掉部分針對人事案的附屬權把它拿掉就是因為好柏村拒絕附屬"},{"start":7327.813,"end":7351.344,"text":"拿掉但是他沒有把整個附屬權拿掉他其他的附屬法律案的附屬權他依然保留在憲法裡面這個是什麼這個是憲法有意的沉默他拿掉了人事同意人事的附屬權獨留法律案的附屬權表示這個附屬權是存在而且有價值有意義的在在徵修條文修憲之後的體制依然是重要的權利"},{"start":7353.055,"end":7374.846,"text":"所以我們今天爭論的意思就是說附屬權到底是一個義務中華民國法律通過之後你就一定要附屬就一定要公佈這是一種看法這就是你們今天國民黨跟民眾黨的看法另外一個看法認為附屬權不是它是一個權利它是一個行政院長的權限所以它會規定在憲法裡面那"},{"start":7379.385,"end":7401.391,"text":"這個東西有爭議理論上那到底他可不可以不附屬理論上這樣子的憲政爭議應該由誰來做最後的判定他到底可不可以其實是憲法法院照體制走就是憲法法院剛大家都講說憲法法院才有終極判決的理由剛才大家這麼多人在那邊講說賴清德違憲賴清德明顯違憲"},{"start":7404.548,"end":7430.686,"text":"那你們也沒有權利講賴清德違憲只有憲法法院可以說賴清德違憲但是我們中華民國這部體制經過七次修憲拼裝之後本來雖然不好騎但是也是一台滿好騎還是可以走的腳踏車結果有兩個惡棍一個叫國民黨一個叫民眾黨拿一根鐵棍從車輪插進去這腳踏車翻車了這根鐵棍是什麼就是憲法訴訟法癱瘓憲法法庭因為國民黨"},{"start":7434.198,"end":7458.873,"text":"民眾黨癱瘓的憲法法庭使得現在所有的這些憲政爭議你通通變成沒有得到最終終局解決的可能性剛才所有學者我看張其祿教授是我很好的朋友他講得很有道理他說現在的這個總統制這個是憲法制度是有問題的這樣子的設計他大概整篇都講我們憲法制度有很大的問題"},{"start":7460.699,"end":7484.679,"text":"憲法制度有很大的問題所以要罷免總統所以要彈劾總統這個是什麼邏輯因為我們的憲法制度設計有問題所以我們要來彈劾賴清德我在這裡講這麼多但是最重要是我們要回歸到最後憲政體制的設計在場都是學者大家也都是在教人子弟的"},{"start":7485.817,"end":7509.531,"text":"都是在教人子弟的有關於憲法這樣子相關的權限我剛剛所講的通通都是就是權力制衡check and balance裡面附屬權到底是不是一個行政權對立法權的一個制衡的權利也許憲政上有爭議但是終局應該是被你們癱瘓的憲法法庭好 謝謝沈委員下一位我們請王玉敏委員發言"},{"start":7511.471,"end":7538.511,"text":"主席各位委員各位媒體朋友各位專家學者大家好我想今天我們是在寫歷史為什麼這麼說在立法院我們是第一次針對彈劾總統這樣的一個案子來召開公聽會我相信都沒有人參加過大家都是第一次那為什麼會有這樣子歷史上的第一次"},{"start":7539.392,"end":7542.258,"text":"立法院必須提出彈劾總統這樣的一個彈劾案"},{"start":7544.642,"end":7569.454,"text":"因為賴清德總統是無前例的不公布由立法院通過的法律案這個是中華民國我們民選總統以來從來沒有一個總統做到這件事情而賴清德公然違反了憲法的義務跟責任"},{"start":7570.134,"end":7587.523,"text":"他竟然可以用不公布立法院三讀通過的法律這就是明顯的違憲所以這樣的一個史無前例讓我們必須召開公聽會今天有這樣的一個彈劾案"},{"start":7588.433,"end":7617.753,"text":"那這樣的一個史無前例我覺得賴清德總統沒有擔當敢做而不敢當剛剛有包括學者或者是委員說為什麼對象不是針對卓榮泰要針對賴清德我讓大家來複習一下為什麼今天彈劾的對象是賴清德總統在立法院通過的才化法這個我讓大家"},{"start":7619.194,"end":7634.823,"text":"還原一下那個順序在立法院通過的財政收支劃分法這個行政院他有提出復議他是在114年12月5號立法院投票表決"},{"start":7636.124,"end":7654.296,"text":"就是維持原案所以他的復議案並沒有通過按照憲法徵修條文第三條明定復議時如今全體立法委員二分之一以上決議維持原案行政院院長應即接受該決議"},{"start":7656.357,"end":7671.984,"text":"而總統更需要依中華民國憲法第72條規定立法院法律案通過後移送總統及行政院總統英語收到後10日內公佈"},{"start":7674.069,"end":7690.402,"text":"這些憲法明文規定的文字如果按照憲法來12月5號立法院已經否決了行政院的復議案總統按照規定應該要在114年12月15號公佈實施結果"},{"start":7696.479,"end":7718.078,"text":"媒體都有報導12月12號總統主動找了民進黨的立委進行了一場便當會他選擇在應該12月15號公佈之前匆匆忙忙就召開了一場便當會然後這一場便當會"},{"start":7719.759,"end":7733.064,"text":"召開完之後他就對外宣布就是採取不附屬或附屬之後不執行這不是公然下指導棋什麼才是"},{"start":7734.827,"end":7749.397,"text":"我們看到了總統公然的去找了民進黨的立委來召開這場會議定調了不附屬結果從昨天的專家學者或是民進黨的委員都說你們應該要找卓榮泰"},{"start":7751.041,"end":7776.099,"text":"冤有頭債有主啊敢做不敢當賴清德總統公然找了民進黨的委員召開了這場會議而且強硬劃壓如果大家有印象的話當時柯建民總召我們佩服他他還是在專業方面是比較深厚的比較有法學素養的他認為萬萬不可但是"},{"start":7777.25,"end":7789.408,"text":"很難獨排眾議所以這個卓榮泰就照單全收請問今天我們提出這樣的彈劾案對象是總統真的沒有道理嗎"},{"start":7791.448,"end":7809.246,"text":"真的沒有道理嗎所以我希望民進黨的委員不用再繼續護航賴總統既然敢做就敢當完完全全都是他下令的嘛所以今天民進黨有很多的委員說哎呀你們就是提倒閣啊倒閣有用嗎"},{"start":7810.527,"end":7839.39,"text":"今天走了一個卓榮泰不會來一個鄭麗君嗎或來一個潘孟安嗎那他們要不要聽命賴清德總統的命令當然要啊在我們現在的憲政架構底下我們的行政院院長充其量就是總統的執行長而已我們不是真正的內閣制我們現在的卓榮泰院長他並沒有來自民意的基礎跟權力"},{"start":7840.919,"end":7858.633,"text":"那請問一個行政院院長可以針對立法院最高的民意機構我們所通過的法令他可以不附屬嗎他可以不附屬來架空立法院嗎請問他的權力基礎來自於哪裡不是內閣制的首長哪來那麼大的一個權力"},{"start":7864.972,"end":7892.121,"text":"所以你不覺得這件事情非常的荒謬嗎如果一個行政院院長可以任意的用不附屬來架控立法院通過的法令那請問陳水扁時期也是嘲笑也大他當時所任命的行政院院長我相信他對於立法院所做的決議他可能也不見得百分之百的認同或者是接受但是他們都守住了"},{"start":7893.449,"end":7912.49,"text":"憲法跟法律的底線我們是五權分立的國家一個行政院院長目前我們的憲法賦予他的就是你不同意的時候你就提起復議但是復議失敗之後憲法明文規定你就是必須要遵守"},{"start":7913.935,"end":7938.251,"text":"這個才是我們民主法治應該要維持的一個最好的一個框架跟架構吧所以真的是制度完全出了問題嗎我今天在公聽會我要說恐怕是人出了問題如果過去陳水扁總統在嘲笑野大的時候我們也沒有看到他發動大罷免針對在野黨所有的區域委員一律罷免"},{"start":7939.312,"end":7963.981,"text":"我們也沒有看到陳水扁總統他對於立法院通過的法令竟然可以進行不公佈那這是人的問題還是是制度的問題我必須說賴清德總統他在法治的觀念上面出了非常大的一個問題過去他擔任市長的時候就可以因為不認同這個議會的議長"},{"start":7966.542,"end":7982.1,"text":"他就不履行一個市長到議會去接受備詢接受議會監督這樣的一個做法而遭到了監察院的彈劾那他今天作為國家的元首故態覆名又來了一遍"},{"start":7983.101,"end":8004.172,"text":"他今天竟然可以違反憲法針對立法院通過的法律案他要求卓榮泰不附屬然後還裝模作樣變成說不是我不公佈是因為他不附屬所以我才不能公佈這個也未免太惺惺作態了要敢做敢當"},{"start":8006.345,"end":8027.417,"text":"最後我要提出來的是我們不允許中華民國邁向民主獨裁我們不允許我們好不容易創建的民主法治的體制竟然可以在賴清德擔任總統的時候他可以用個人的意志就要來做這個扭曲跟破壞"},{"start":8029.042,"end":8046.253,"text":"美國的開國元勳、美國憲法之父James Madison他在聯邦黨的人文集第47篇他有特別指出當立法權、行政權和司法權集中於一人之手我們都可以恰當地稱為這是保證"},{"start":8048.835,"end":8074.913,"text":"而目前我們看到的賴清德總統他試圖要架空立法院的立法權他用司法去迫害政敵他現在在這個大法官的部分不提名不履行他的總統的職責而且用五個大法官就要來做釋憲這個都是在在的違反了民主"},{"start":8075.934,"end":8090.137,"text":"迫害了我們的法治最後我要講的是在憲政之上沒有人可以領價在民主之前也沒有旁觀者所以今天我們都在寫歷史"},{"start":8091.418,"end":8117.643,"text":"對一個違法濫權的總統我們一定要留下記錄而很多人都說這一個彈劾案根本不會通過重點是在這個過程我們要讓全國的民眾了解而我也套用柯總召的一句話他常常說起義來歸我想民進黨裡面的委員如果想要繼續守護我們的憲法"},{"start":8118.283,"end":8134.219,"text":"最終我們在投票的時候我們也希望呼應有志之士希望守護中華民國憲政與法治的民進黨委員可以起義來歸以上 謝謝好 謝謝王委員接下來請吳斯亞委員發言"},{"start":8136.05,"end":8147.971,"text":"謝謝大會主席謝謝今天參與的立委同仁以及學者專家們我就扣合著王育民委員剛剛所說的立法院正在寫歷史這是台灣史上第一次的彈劾總統案"},{"start":8149.249,"end":8174.244,"text":"那麼我們就要負責任的寫下好的歷史對的歷史而不是無法對後代交代無法對歷史交代並不是賴清德總統違憲亂政而是我們有了史上前所未有惡上加惡的立法院我同意王玉民委員說的現在的憲政僵局問題在人沒有錯"},{"start":8175.151,"end":8196.443,"text":"因为我们有了一再的违反宪法宪政机关平等相违原则一再的认为国会优位立院最大的在野党的立委们这些人才是真正出了问题的核心那下一页我其实不想提但我必须提早在这一届国会还未组成"},{"start":8197.003,"end":8222.87,"text":"正在即將組成的2024年2月1號前習近平已經下達指示拿下台灣戰場就在立法院我們來看看習近平國台辦頒布的佔領台灣立法院制高點的統戰戰略要點裡頭的幾項目標工作是不是就是台灣現在國會的社會進行式包括來癱瘓台灣的國防自主"},{"start":8223.57,"end":8248.67,"text":"包括用國會濫權來提出國會的調查權要求總統的質詢權要求總統到立院備詢不也正是現在彈劾案的現在進行式嗎包括習近平所指示的讓九二共識成為國會統戰互動的最高原則那我們來看看這不就是現在鄭麗文的所作所為嗎"},{"start":8250.131,"end":8275.828,"text":"所以說呢不是台灣社會在關心總統彈劾恐怕對岸也有相當高度的關切為什麼呢下一頁當我們看到蔡正元 邱毅 郭正亮發起的彈劾賴清德總統的連署網站然後快速的被踢爆這個網站造假甚至一度暴增到高達14億人14億人來同意"},{"start":8279.43,"end":8305.517,"text":"弹劾赖清德总统那这样一个假网站就搭配着认知作战他的协力者就有这些发起联署的人有台湾的红媒有中国的官媒一套剧本一条龙的操作连弹劾总统都大搞认知作战煽动人民仇恨政府我们再看下一页"},{"start":8306.637,"end":8319.013,"text":"國台辦果不其然很快速的紅藍白口徑一致都要求彈劾賴清德如果在野黨的委員要撇清反對這些"},{"start":8321.317,"end":8336.153,"text":"作為那為什麼自己自甘成為工具人為什麼自己讓自己跟中國的操作畫上了等號呢下一頁我們來看真實的民意喔民進黨的民調67%支持國會先審預算先顧民生"},{"start":8340.718,"end":8359.606,"text":"而不支持大搞彈劾你不相信民進黨的民調沒有關係我們看看一平新聞的民調也高達74%反對彈劾賴清德總統更也可以參考鄭傳媒委託山水民調公司的高達45%是不贊成彈劾總統的所以說下一頁"},{"start":8360.886,"end":8384.735,"text":"藍白所提的彈劾總統的三大謬誤就是欲加之罪何患無辭從把賴總統冠上獨裁總統或是毀憲亂政的罪名都是莫須有強加人於罪所以這是欲加之罪何患無辭的彈劾這也是畫錯重點搞錯方向的彈劾如果要追究總統的政治責任"},{"start":8386.175,"end":8403.605,"text":"請去勇敢的倒閣吧難道在野黨害怕民意的最終仲裁嗎而如果要藉由彈劾來要求邀請賴清德總統列席立法院那麼何必捨盡求遠就去走符合憲法規範的國情報告不就得了嗎第三這也是虛張聲勢自我催眠的假彈劾"},{"start":8411.869,"end":8435.171,"text":"因为蓝白没有三分之二的利润席次而宪法法庭也被你们瘫痪被你们摧毁你们都知道这是一个弹劾不成的弹劾案下一页我们来看看刚审发会委员针对这个天下奇闻大家一起共赏就是蓝白所提的发动弹劾总统案的案由"},{"start":8437.191,"end":8461.163,"text":"你们一再讲几个关键字就是赖清德是独裁总统你们一再说赖清德是违宪乱政的总统在场也有我台大政研所的老师彭女彭老师无爱无师无更爱真理刚刚彭老师所说的赖清德是违宪的总统赖清德是违宪惯犯的总统不好意思无爱无师无更爱真理"},{"start":8462.143,"end":8486.535,"text":"賴清德總統是一個維護憲法的總統而藍白主導的立法院才是違憲上癮的立法院看看如果台灣有獨裁總統我們能夠讓在野黨的委員依循憲法的機制在立法院搞彈劾在立法院舉辦公聽會一再地羞辱總統做出這些"},{"start":8487.495,"end":8506.021,"text":"毫無事實依據的這些政治攻擊如果台灣是獨裁的國家何以能夠在立院發動彈劾呢所以就足以證明我們今天在這裡的進行的公聽會台灣並不是獨裁國家更沒有獨裁總統下一頁而"},{"start":8506.801,"end":8518.238,"text":"沒有獨裁總統 只有獨裁國會這些近乎二讀 不經討論協商過水 黑箱表決的議案才是獨裁國會的本質 下一頁而"},{"start":8519.19,"end":8546.899,"text":"前所未見藍白真的寫下了台灣的歷史兩年有八個議案被申請釋憲中其中兩案已經被宣判違憲誰違憲亂證正是藍白主導的立法院兩年八個法案涉及違憲憲法法庭正在審議當中而兩案已經被宣判違憲下一頁"},{"start":8547.719,"end":8569.654,"text":"我们更要说除了今天的弹劾总统案在野党以近乎二读以立院决议的方式谴责大法官宣判宪判无效的这一个提案违反了宪法78条违反了宪法诉讼法38条更违反释字185号的解释谁在违宪乱政"},{"start":8570.595,"end":8596.892,"text":"就是这种提案下一页谁在违宪乱政在野党甚至要用公投法来凌驾宪法要用公投来推翻宪判我们在场这么多学者专家法律不能凌驾宪法这是所有学法律学政治的基本ABC所以谁在违宪乱政呢是立法院自证其罪下一页"},{"start":8598.174,"end":8610.065,"text":"而在提案要求彈劾總統的理由裡頭剛剛一直講到大罷免國民黨你們要確定大罷免是人民發動的"},{"start":8611.604,"end":8630.29,"text":"真正發動大惡霸的是貴黨國民黨而坐在這裡的吳思瑤就是現在全台灣真的是被寫下歷史偽造連署高達2674份全台灣從以前到現在偽造連署死亡連署高達94%這一個驚人的"},{"start":8635.331,"end":8648.402,"text":"歷史記錄我真的很遺憾是記錄在吳思瑤身上因為國民黨要搞大惡霸是你們用違法的方式你們要大惡霸沒搞成而已啊"},{"start":8650.219,"end":8679.779,"text":"人民依據憲法提起罷免的權利就如同今天在野黨的委員依據憲法提起彈劾總統一樣都是依據憲法那為什麼立法院可以人民不能夠行使他的罷免的基本公民權呢不要兩套標準而事實上國民黨才是發動大惡霸的元首只是你們沒有成功而已我就是當事人我也是受害者"},{"start":8680.579,"end":8696.166,"text":"至于法案不附属到底有没有构成弹劾总统的正当理由呢不管我们在场的陈一凯律师陈一凯教授有非常多的发表的意见我们也来看看陈一前教授所说的"},{"start":8697.006,"end":8720.033,"text":"行政院長行使憲法賦予的正當防衛權利怎麼會構成彈劾總統的理由呢羅承宗教授所說林佳和教授所說下一頁甚至許志雄大法官所說的行政院長的不附屬是阻止違憲法案的公佈實行那你要追究行政院長的政治責任再說一次 那你就去倒閣吧"},{"start":8721.089,"end":8734.567,"text":"那陳怡凱教授謝謝兩天給我們非常精彩多多的論述我就不再贅述了所以呢法案不附屬並不構成彈劾總統的合理合憲的理由最後"},{"start":8735.768,"end":8759.103,"text":"要藉由大搞彈劾來羞辱總統在立法院搭建出一個可以羞辱總統政治表演的舞台倒數會期末的十一天為什麼不審預算不審軍購至民生於何處至國安於何處呢好 最後時間我30秒收數這一本是周萬來秘書長寫的書"},{"start":8761.124,"end":8780.941,"text":"非常清楚針對總統的國情報告只要合憲合規總統願意來他多次表達而周萬來秘書長過去的著作就清楚的說明了國會進行國情報告是得邀請而不是應邀請"},{"start":8782.142,"end":8798.582,"text":"而急問急答並不是憲法賦予立法院的權利因為對立法院負責的是行政院長不是總統下一頁好謝謝好最後一個我收束一下如果說要邀請賴總統來國請報告請合憲合規"},{"start":8802.206,"end":8826.457,"text":"因為過去針對違憲的急問急答的方式馬英九總統 王金平院長都說過萬萬不可不要讓台灣的憲政秩序而整個被大開民主的倒車我以這個頁面來收束過去馬英九怎麼說 王金平怎麼說現在的藍白委員"},{"start":8827.297,"end":8840.326,"text":"请不要一再的写下错误的历史写下负面的历史中华民国的国会不能够让恶例成为惯例好 谢谢谢谢吴委员下一位请王洪委员发言"},{"start":8849.397,"end":8861.558,"text":"好 謝謝主席以及來參加的學者專家以及現場的各位委員還有網路前面的朋友 大家好我想今天是非常重要的一個歷史時刻"},{"start":8863.031,"end":8890.459,"text":"我們今天面臨了中華民國第一次史上由立法院所提出來的總統彈劾案其實我們心情是非常沉重的就如同剛才很多的先進所講的按照我們現在的這個憲政體制要讓總統彈劾成功事實上它的難度確實非常高不要說現在立法院沒有三分之二的在野席次"},{"start":8890.959,"end":8918.928,"text":"而且还要经过宪法法庭而最近宪法法庭的表现我们几乎可以确定那么其实就已经如同赖总统的靳远靳卫军一样的但是我们必须去写下历史因为当独裁成为事实弹劾就是我们的责任当独裁成为事实弹劾就是我们的责任"},{"start":8919.844,"end":8930.371,"text":"我想以下我要講一下我們現在為何要彈劾賴清德總統因為他確實一步一步的走向彈劾之路"},{"start":8931.607,"end":8950.221,"text":"首先在去年發起的大罷免剛才民進黨的委員都說這是人民發起的啊可是這是由民進黨黨團總召柯建民總召他對外公開的說在整個大罷免過程裡面賴總統每個禮拜都聽取報告"},{"start":8954.944,"end":8976.309,"text":"他完全掌控请问一下这是一个完全由人民由下而上所发起的大罢免吗不要自欺欺人人民不是笨蛋所以在去年32比0其实社会已经告诉你这样子一个由"},{"start":8978.673,"end":8994.688,"text":"總統所發起的這樣的一個大罷免浪費社會資源造成社會對立大家已經告訴你最新的民意可是請問一下賴總統他有因此而節制嗎"},{"start":8996.198,"end":9018.49,"text":"所以我必须要说刚才吴思瑶委员也说现在最主要的问题是人出了问题这个人是在立法院的人出了问题他当然指的是在野党的立委可是人民不是告诉你了吗32比0大罢免大失败到底是谁出问题呢"},{"start":9019.52,"end":9042.103,"text":"为什么我们赖总统即便经过这样的一个教训和洗礼人民这样的意志这么清楚地告诉你你仍然不懂节制呢另外行政权独裁拒绝依法行政我们特别一直在讲在过去"},{"start":9043.283,"end":9069.329,"text":"再怎麼獨裁總統再怎麼專權但是不可能容許在立法院已經完備程序通過的法律我們竟然在行政部門拒絕執行在去年我們通過了對於第一線前線軍人的加薪案"},{"start":9070.39,"end":9091.981,"text":"我們也通過了退休景銷的所得替代率提高但是在今年度的總預算裡面行政院拒絕編列這是一個經過行政院長附屬以及總統公佈實施的法律但是竟然可以不執行剛才吳思耀"},{"start":9093.55,"end":9118.8,"text":"委員也刻意的再把這一次的彈劾案去故意去牽扯好像這事又是中共的在地協力者這樣的話術這樣的帶風向這樣的抹紅抹黑不就是去年大罷免的重現嗎可是已經告訴你人民不吃這一套"},{"start":9119.932,"end":9146.952,"text":"另外我們所通過的法律案包含對於現在第一線我們的國軍官兵弟兄的加薪案請問一下我們提振我們軍人的士氣我們是中共的在地協力者嗎我們照顧我們的退休警消人員我們又變成了中共的在地協力者嗎這到底是什麼邏輯"},{"start":9148.82,"end":9174.832,"text":"欲加之罪何患無辭我必須說今天賴總統的悲哀呀就是在於他一再的用抗中移轉自己執政的無能一再用抗中來說用這樣合理化自己的一個獨裁的行為好我剛才講行政權的獨裁我們看到"},{"start":9176.38,"end":9185.597,"text":"这两天一直说你们找错对象了是行政院长不附属所以你们应该去弹劾的是"},{"start":9187.591,"end":9210.492,"text":"這個行政院長你們應該去提出這個不信任案當然他希望用倒閣的方式來進行所謂的大罷免2.08我們今天看到日本高市早苗首相他決定要解散國會重新選舉高市自己也會下來選啊"},{"start":9212.338,"end":9236.53,"text":"所以今天賴清德總統他坐在那邊受到這個憲政的保護竟然告訴我們你們去倒閣然後大家再重新選舉我直接說賴清德總統你如果下來跟我們一起選你這個才有正當性啊你在那邊說的是把人民當作三歲的小孩嗎"},{"start":9238.317,"end":9265.91,"text":"所以我們在這邊為什麼特別提出我們不能一而再再而三的放任行政院拒絕實施立法院所通過的法律這是行政逾越了自己的權力的底線那我們當然很清楚知道這個真正的元兇當然不是卓榮泰而是賴清德總統另外司法權的獨裁"},{"start":9267.327,"end":9296.257,"text":"枉法裁判除了行政权之外赖总统已经把他的手伸向了司法我们这两天也有很多的论述我们的宪法法庭受到宪诉法的限制应该根本无权去开会好 他说我们新通过的宪诉法是违宪的必须十人以上才可以组成宪法法庭"},{"start":9297.082,"end":9313.401,"text":"但是我們就退一萬步來說也就是現在所採用的舊的限訴法憲法法庭的組成也要現有總額的三分之二起碼六名大法官"},{"start":9314.409,"end":9329.057,"text":"所以我们在去年我们违法的宪法法庭去做成了114年宪判制第一号根本是无效判决而且是荒唐的一个判决"},{"start":9331.893,"end":9350.661,"text":"憲法法庭可以完全的違法作為司法最高機關也可以違法但是這後面又是賴總統後面的撐腰不是嗎也是賴總統的授意不是嗎所以這是一個司法權獨裁"},{"start":9353.452,"end":9372.547,"text":"這樣子的一個作為其實跟最近被美國逮捕的委內瑞拉總統馬杜洛他就是因為國會他沒有辦法掌握多數所以他把他的親信放在他最高法院然後判決所有國會裡面通過的法律通過的預算全部無效"},{"start":9374.013,"end":9397.351,"text":"所以今天我們能讓台灣委內瑞拉化嗎可以讓司法權獨裁整個的一樣愉悅踐踏了立法權嗎而且最好笑的是賴總統竟然會說出一個現在叫做在野獨裁真的是全球獨步啊"},{"start":9398.447,"end":9420.035,"text":"全世界的民主憲政的專家都應該向賴總統請教請問一下 我們現在的總統除了立法院之外掌握了行政院 考試院 監察院還有最重要的是司法權請問一下 在野如何獨裁呢"},{"start":9421.064,"end":9438.818,"text":"所以今天我們一步一步走向這樣子的行政獨裁,再也獨裁。我們如果可以縱容,我們如果沉默,我們會眼睜睜看著台灣要走向變成委內瑞拉嗎?"},{"start":9440.168,"end":9465.867,"text":"我們要讓賴清德會朝向韓國的前總統尹錫悅一樣走向一個獨裁之路嗎所以今天我們在歷史上必須留下見證當獨裁成為事實彈劾就是我們的責任謝謝好 謝謝王宏林委員接下來我們請王逸川委員發言好 謝謝主席"},{"start":9469.104,"end":9473.507,"text":"還有線上的好朋友今天聽整個會議對面的學者專家講的這個內容我最欽佩的就是張祺祿教授他這樣開宗明義的說今天這是一個制度的討論一個制度的討論因為這制度上的某種的設計今天要辦這個公聽會後面還要討論用國語好不好"},{"start":9507.048,"end":9515.173,"text":"那個 我想我們就彼此尊重好不好來 繼續你那個什麼意思 主席那個什麼意思來 請繼續發言 沒關係我用什麼話講是我的管理啦你如果聽不到 聽不到去找翻譯啦莫名其妙 我講我的話你就是不懂 亂說什麼意思啊對面啦 這些學者專家今天每一個人講的話 理事長都會記錄啦"},{"start":9536.201,"end":9543.343,"text":"張祺祿教授講制度討論,這我非常贊成張祺祿教授講完後,後面幾個教授講的,我也非常認同當然也有人抄斷,抄斷說什麼大法官是什麼,他設計,我聽你的父母那又叫你設計,說一個沒辦法查證的東西,還抄斷"},{"start":9561.989,"end":9572.175,"text":"所以請不要立法委員不要亂講話那個都有國民大會的記錄等一下我們會有回應時間好不好學者專家這邊我們待會有30分鐘的回應時間現在我們就請委員繼續發言你跟我說我也沒什麼意見來 王委員請繼續發言怎麼會這樣啊請學者專家才會沒問題好 來 我們繼續發言 來"},{"start":9590.711,"end":9598.833,"text":"今天這是一個制度的討論 現在是行政院對立法院通過的法律跟自愛人行申請這個復議 說什麼復議沒過就沒了啊復議沒過 接著是說你不可以再復議 你當然也不能去申請釋憲啊你當然現在要規定 行政院一定有一個復甦的權利啊不然你就把復甦的權利給掉啊"},{"start":9620.282,"end":9631.165,"text":"不然就來修憲啊 把他骨頭劈掉啊行政院長不復甦 現場裡面就說他要復甦 須復甦須復甦就是可以復甦 也可以不要復甦啊不然他骨頭劈掉啊 連這個也要廢這廢好 這廢可以 這就是制度的討論不是個人的討論我告訴你 現在這樣你如果不開心 不開心你就把這個行政議長給他上彈"},{"start":9649.824,"end":9664.068,"text":"我不知道你們不應該把行政議長刪除因為彈劾的權利是乾淨的你們就必不可保你說我沒有把這個行政議長我沒有來把這個不信任我們不信任我們一定會過你們如果不愛你們也不愛因為不信任我們之後就全部定選你們也不愛這道理大家都說很久了後來你們就想到一招說要來彈劾總統"},{"start":9678.881,"end":9689.585,"text":"還要來彈劾總統 要彈劾總統也沒問題這是立法院的管理 連署裡面理由有在寧下彈劾總統裡面還有一個理由說因為台積電要去美國 這條可以彈劾總統這條可以彈劾總統 理由有在寧下 反正倒霉就是來投票來標判"},{"start":9702.489,"end":9721.533,"text":"要投票 要表決 也很簡單啊 公共的就開始來投票不是 你們很厲害 世界創五個月還要下降 還要辦20多張 用國家的資源在拚你們的選舉我怎麼聽得到 怎麼看得到你們20多個官司 那就是你們的好選人還要去辦的時候 就要去做幾套的"},{"start":9728.991,"end":9735.753,"text":"用國家的資源在拼你們的選舉要拖到五月還要投票要投票就這兩天半班的就來投票不需要這樣拖 簡單說你們就是要亂了你們就是要亂了你們現在幾天也都說了 國民黨的台獨也這樣說了這就不會過 你們也知道不會過可是要繞記錄 不過要繞記錄"},{"start":9757.863,"end":9766.188,"text":"不過規定很重要,為什麼?因為你後來擺設計兩天,說要叫總統來,要來這裡補酒,要來這裡吞喝,要來這裡拍攝,要把它撈開,就這樣而已,你們有其他目的嗎?沒有啊,你們就是要這樣而已,台灣人有沒有看過,你們就這樣,大家說整套的,說到嘴巴全破,目的一個,就是要有熱情的拍攝,"},{"start":9787.285,"end":9793.997,"text":"要給總統批判正常的行為的定數不要走不信任我們這個處理行政議長你也不要那有千千萬萬個喬龍泰"},{"start":9799.97,"end":9804.151,"text":"制度的設計 如果制度的設計 你們覺得不開心制度的設計 你們覺得不高興就來修憲 如果修很多條就整期不要修憲 要衝一波新的也可以對不對 你們這樣一直拖一直拖讓你們在這裡講話 我看就想說你們的全國行為就很趣味 用國家的錢去煉煉味 煉這個熱情滴"},{"start":9829.244,"end":9830.965,"text":"這樣要說這要跟人家彈劾,我是不知道說臨江這個特政帝的、特法律的教科書裡面,要記錄這條,記錄這條彈劾,發起彈劾的政黨說,我也知道不會過,發起一個知道不會過的彈劾,這叫做教科書要怎麼寫。"},{"start":9852.59,"end":9865.313,"text":"這教科書要對米也很多法律的專家啦 政敵的專家啦人家你敢說什麼什麼說中華民國在思想 台灣在思想在野黨發動一下 要通過彈劾這是要怎麼解釋 解釋法行廳說我們就是法醫了 怎麼樣我們就是要創大清廳了 怎麼樣難道是這樣來解釋嗎"},{"start":9882.062,"end":9884.224,"text":"所以今天這個公聽會,我聽到教授說的真的有道理,有的要抄斷,有的意識形態太狂,還有人怕不到會議席,對於中道委,"},{"start":9900.598,"end":9906.263,"text":"叫我們今天主題無關的阿媽大講十分鐘 你是去吃了黃國昌的水嗎黃國昌這順序來就沒有在教主題今天在討論的是彈劾賴清德的公聽會講一講就叫今天節目都無關的阿媽大這樣講 不知道對一個政黨推薦的所以最後 簡單結論今天這個公聽會辦了 我是建議這樣"},{"start":9927.383,"end":9931.165,"text":"要投票 要標高 要彈劾賴清德 金融用的反正就不會過你們要拖 為了你們個人政黨的選舉要全國行為 用國家的錢辦這個選舉實在是沒意思啦 以上好 謝謝我們的黃委員接下來我們請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":9951.772,"end":9980.104,"text":"主席各位學者專家各位委員還有準備離場的王逸川委員大家好接下來我要發表一篇非常重要的彈劾宣言重量級的彈劾宣言我希望尤其民進黨的委員能夠豎起耳朵聽清楚非常重要非常重要有一點長要花一點時間我把這個彈劾宣言念完"},{"start":9981.789,"end":10009.227,"text":"作为国家领导人没有能力解决国家的问题对人民痛苦毫无感觉已经是严重的失职他发动政治斗争不仅粗暴蛮干无视法纪更对民主宪政缺乏起码的尊重毁宪乱政逾越总统的宪法分纪"},{"start":10010.379,"end":10032.892,"text":"操控司法掩護行政也介入國會事務這是嚴重侵犯三權分立的憲政架構總統一人獨大引起政局動盪民心不安也讓台灣陷入嚴重的憲政危機讓民主法治受到專政的威脅"},{"start":10034.503,"end":10051.05,"text":"為了守護民主 挽救憲政危機遏止總統違憲擴權的行為我們在立法院發動對總統的彈劾案理由有四第一 依照分權制衡的憲政原理"},{"start":10052.693,"end":10065.886,"text":"國會是總統的監督機關,對於總統侵犯立法權的行為,國會有必要採取積極行動,捍衛國會的尊嚴,以及伸張憲政上的權益。"},{"start":10067.247,"end":10096.607,"text":"第二,依照宪法规定,总统违法乱纪的行为是透过弹劾来制衡。此次总统的行为涉及侵犯宪政秩序,理应透过发动弹劾的宪政行动来反制。第三,依照立法院职权行使法,总统弹劾案经立法委员二分之一的连述提议,即交程序委员会编列议程提报院会。"},{"start":10098.38,"end":10111.356,"text":"不經討論及交全院委員會審查在審查時得邀請總統列席說明透過總統必須親自面對國會此一程序可充分彰顯國會是總統的憲政監督機關角色"},{"start":10116.963,"end":10134.729,"text":"不容总统反过来践踏立法权第四弹劾案与表决时是以无记名方式进行相当程度可让立法委员的意志免于总统瑕疵有利国会自主意志的呈现"},{"start":10135.709,"end":10154.801,"text":"我們要嚴肅呼籲總統當立法院發動彈劾案時應該坦蕩接受國會的檢驗如果認為自己並無違憲行為請不要把手伸進立法院不能透過黨紀要求立法院黨團阻擋彈劾案同時"},{"start":10156.127,"end":10174.428,"text":"也要呼籲不分黨派所有立法委員將國會尊嚴放在政黨利益之上請一致支持彈劾案在立法院成案讓總統到立法院接受檢驗用憲法上的藥來治憲政的亂"},{"start":10177.086,"end":10199.582,"text":"這是2013年9月14號民進黨前主席蘇貞昌的彈劾宣言夠重量級吧字字句句穿透賴清德總統的心臟只要把他這個總統他說的是馬英九換成賴清德完全完美的貼合貼線這就是民進黨嘛"},{"start":10203.81,"end":10227.138,"text":"這是蘇貞昌的彈劾賴清澤總統宣言嘛預言家來來來我今天不是以羅志強身份坐在這個地方我是以蘇貞昌的身份坐在這個地方我幫蘇貞昌來說文解字他這麼偉大重量級名流輕始的彈劾宣言幫他重量級的說文解字一下"},{"start":10228.464,"end":10252.799,"text":"蘇貞昌說作為國家領導人沒有能力解決國家問題對人民痛苦毫無感覺嚴重失職說的就是賴清德蘇貞昌說他發動政治鬥爭粗暴蠻幹無視法紀對民主憲政缺乏尊重說的就是發動大惡霸政治鬥爭在野黨的賴清德總統"},{"start":10256.04,"end":10272.829,"text":"蘇貞昌說毀憲亂政逾越總統憲法分際操縱司法掩護行政說的就是賴清德今天把大法官會議搞成仇安會五人仇安會違反所謂的憲政倫理"},{"start":10274.318,"end":10293.348,"text":"大法官之前自己都说死刑判决要一字决就这五位仇安会大法官可以直接把三个跟他不同意见的大法官直接名单剔除消音然后说我五个人说了算你之前死刑判决才说一字决"},{"start":10294.389,"end":10321.056,"text":"就是賴清德操控司法掩護行政蘇貞昌罵得太好了總統一人獨大民心不安侵犯三權分立的憲政架構蘇貞昌說也是在罵賴清德不附屬不執行不公佈整個毀憲亂政不就是蘇貞昌口中嚴重侵犯三權分立的憲政架構嗎"},{"start":10323.421,"end":10345.157,"text":"蘇貞昌說為了守護民主 挽救憲政危機所以要遏止違憲擴權的行為要在立法院發動對總統彈劾有四大理由蘇貞昌四大理由我來把蘇貞昌四大理由再說文解釋一下蘇貞昌說依照分權制衡憲政原理國會是總統的監督機關"},{"start":10348.727,"end":10369.153,"text":"對於總統侵犯立法權的行為國會有必要採取積極行動這是為什麼今天我們國會要提出對賴清德的彈劾案完全遵從蘇貞昌的指示啊第二個蘇貞昌說依照憲法規定總統違法亂進行為要透過彈劾來"},{"start":10375.677,"end":10401.017,"text":"而總統的行為侵犯憲法秩序就要用彈劾的憲政行動來反制我們也是秉照蘇貞昌的主張用憲政行動來反制今天賴清德的毀憲亂政蘇貞昌說的第三個理由要邀請總統列席說明總統必須親自面對國會此一程序所以拜託賴清德總統聽聽蘇貞昌的話"},{"start":10404.71,"end":10429.528,"text":"下個禮拜邀請賴總統來立法院到會說明不要讓蘇貞昌失望應立法院的邀來國會來跟人民說明你種種毀憲亂政的行為辯護一下歡迎他來辯護一下蘇貞昌說第四點理由也非常好彈劾是無記名"},{"start":10430.782,"end":10458.345,"text":"我們應該讓立法委員的意志免於總統瑕疵所以有利國會自主所以呼籲不要把手伸進立法院也不要透過黨紀來約束民進黨的立法委員阻擋彈劾案賴總統聽聽蘇貞昌的話公開宣布歡迎民進黨的立委撥亂反正加入彈劾賴清德總統的行列"},{"start":10459.591,"end":10488.582,"text":"蘇貞昌說他要呼籲不分黨派的立法委員將國會尊嚴放在政黨利益之上一致支持彈劾案在立法院成案要請總統到立法院接受檢驗蘇貞昌說用憲法上的藥來治憲政上的亂就讓我們用彈劾來治今天賴清德總統在憲政上的作亂最後我要說的是"},{"start":10489.946,"end":10510.245,"text":"今天我們可以看到一個只獲得40%雙少數的賴清德總統他當選時候說行政立法協調合作共同推動國政但他說一套做一套在他任期這一年半的期間"},{"start":10512.164,"end":10539.805,"text":"親自發動大惡霸政治鬥爭請全部的力量動用司法清算在野黨的主席然後搜索清算在野黨的黨部然後他又同時把手伸進司法搞出了五人華天下大機制五人大法官籌安會來為他的今天的毀憲亂政做遮羞補"},{"start":10541.516,"end":10552.859,"text":"他創立了不附屬不公佈不執行的憲政首要惡例來侵犯立法權政要總統不彈劾他彈劾誰 謝謝好 謝謝羅委員我們現在審查"},{"start":10560.552,"end":10578.292,"text":"小組委員的詢問都已經發言完畢現在要進行最後一個程序請學者專家針對剛才審查小組委員的詢問提出綜合答覆每位三分鐘首先請張祺祿教授發言"},{"start":10580.291,"end":10608.339,"text":"謝謝副院長還有各位委員那我想其實今天聽了大家的這個所有的這個發言其實大家更可以知道一件事就是知道我們現在這個制度有多麼的荒唐多麼的荒謬我必須直說啦台灣的這種所謂半總統制那其實他是先天不良後天又失調我也必須直接說啦今天我們在座所有人的發言我希望大家都把它"},{"start":10608.999,"end":10628.969,"text":"牢記於心為什麼因為哪一天不要換了這個位置你就會發現你真的會被打臉其實剛才我覺得羅委員談出來的這個非常的棒其實今天我覺得我們每一位各黨派的這個發言其實你真的要仔細想看因為哪一天也許你就會換了那個位置"},{"start":10630.017,"end":10654.391,"text":"所以今天才真正的我也必須直說啦今天如果簡短來講當然我想在執政黨當然一直在這個必須作為一個護航那但是你要仔細想想看今天如果今天是在野今天的總統如果是國民黨在做是民眾黨在做那也可以容許發生這些事情嗎"},{"start":10655.231,"end":10674.93,"text":"也可以這樣幹嗎所以我覺得這才是真實的問題所以我一直在強調說這個制度的面其實坦白說我們要把一個總統制跟一個議會內閣制混在一起本身就已經出了大問題了因為我們的總統就是有權但是他沒有任何的責任"},{"start":10676.131,"end":10698.034,"text":"但是行政院長就是有無限責任但是沒有權所以今天當然我想執政黨方面一直說不然你們就來彈劾這個行政院長可是說實話也沒有什麼真的實質的意義啦那當然不要說現在這個彈劾制度了那另外的話那雖然說用倒閣的方式可是這個倒了我剛才其實在我的發言也講了"},{"start":10698.715,"end":10724.407,"text":"其實總統是可以直接再任命他一次的都可以的所以事實上這是就是無解我現在已經必須一直強調我們現在就是真實的無解那坦白說離台灣制度最接近的其實是像法國的這種雙手掌制其實是以我們目前來看這也就是為什麼之前我想民眾黨柯文哲前主席也談過為什麼這個聯合政府的這個概念必須被談出來"},{"start":10725.509,"end":10750.93,"text":"因為事實上法國就常常面臨這種狀況你怎麼管理分裂管理衝突那你怎麼去做好這件事情我們其實今天還是站在國家的立場我們希望國家的制度能長持久安能走下去而不是誰奪到了這個總統大位的權利都搞成獨裁我覺得這才是我們今天台灣真正所有的民眾要必須想清楚的今天我們如果你放任的是民進黨"},{"start":10752.389,"end":10769.638,"text":"可以繼續這樣子玩下去可是你知道哪一天萬一又換上別人執政的時候是不是你也容忍所以今天我覺得憑著良心來說話所有都是應該回到制度來看謝謝張教授下一位我們請陳怡凱教授"},{"start":10771.364,"end":10796.854,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位在座來賓 大家好我們綜合一下剛剛幾位委員的發言包括王洪威委員有提到說在野黨獨裁是認為說這是不可能的世界上是不可能的事實上國會的多數利用多數來造成獨裁這是有這種例子的2015年波蘭的國會它是由一個"},{"start":10798.034,"end":10814.274,"text":"法律与正义党就是PIS党他取得国会多数然后他也是利用这个方式来修改他们的波兰宪法法院法但是波兰宪法法院还是把这个新修改的波兰宪法法院法判决违宪无效他也跟他的反应呢"},{"start":10815.155,"end":10834.781,"text":"這個PIS黨的反應就跟我們目前的這個藍白議員的反應是一模一樣的就自己就宣告這個判決是無效的憲法法院的判決無效因為呢憲法法院自己宣告波蘭憲法法院法是無效的那因此呢這裡所造成的這裡的獨裁呢已經經過這個歐盟的執委會呢發動調查"},{"start":10836.141,"end":10860.143,"text":"然後認為說波蘭它違反了法治國的原則然後以及後續的PIS黨又陸續的制定了最高法院法還有國家司法委員會法通通安排自己的人去當法官這裡也被歐洲人權法院跟歐盟法院宣告這裡是違反司法獨立的所以這裡都是可能的"},{"start":10860.583,"end":10874.436,"text":"那我們在說我國到底是什麼制度呢我們不是我說了算或是我們必須要硬套哪一個國家的總統制、內閣制而是由我國的大法官他自己說特別是在613號解釋"},{"start":10877.134,"end":10899.884,"text":"林子儀大法官在這個部分協同意見書他已經講了目前的這個權力分立與制衡不是形式主義的那種所謂的國會專門就是在立法而不是行政那行政專門是在行政而不是立法並沒有這樣的一個形式主義而是兩個數個國家機關要一起合作的那在這個理解之下"},{"start":10902.088,"end":10911.722,"text":"就是說我們退回復翼以及被國會議員又維持原案在這裡必須是兩個機關的一起的合作那麼在這裡"},{"start":10915.302,"end":10933.997,"text":"對不起 這個委員他已經說那麼這樣退回復翼它是什麼意思這個意思就是形成僵局那這個僵局就是要由是不是你要發動這個倒閣來解決這個僵局那你如果沒有發動倒閣的話呢這個僵局那仍然是在的那因此這必須要兩個的同意"},{"start":10934.437,"end":10961.335,"text":"那也不能自居於說國會的多數那就變成行政院都必須就只能遵守那只能去附屬那總統就只能公佈並沒有這樣一個法理那必須比如說民進黨他在國會議員他雖然是他至少還有五十一席那五十一席你不能說他的名義通通不重要了一律通通必須要只能遵守好 謝謝好 謝謝陳教授接下來請張亞中教授"},{"start":10962.998,"end":10984.872,"text":"听了今天民进党的谈话其实非常失望我有几点想讲第一点造妖镜它的确没有办法灭妖但是可以造出妖的原型弹劾案它不是挪诈的三昧真火因此烧不到赖清德但是造妖镜可以造出赖清德违宪以及正向走向民选独裁的事实"},{"start":10986.016,"end":11013.812,"text":"從今天民進黨委員的發言來看這個造妖鏡不只造出賴清德民選獨裁的原型連民進黨立法委員的沒有是非只有立場知識有限良心不足的原型都造出來了我突然發現原來這些民進黨的參與者都是只會跟著主人叫的鸚鵡一群鸚鵡不思考不判斷只會重複賴清德以及民進黨中央做那些主人教的話"},{"start":11014.994,"end":11043.912,"text":"第二点今天所有民进党的发言都把不复属的不复属的责任推给卓荣泰这个对吗在经过多次修宪以后行政院长已经是总统的执行长叫国民党倒戈这对吗冤有头债有主如果赖清德不同意不复属行政院长敢吗赖清德自己可以换掉行政院长啊赖清德不是党主席吗卓荣泰不是党员吗"},{"start":11045.643,"end":11071.023,"text":"第三点民进党代表说现有的制度有问题显示赖清德并没有错如果要修正而非弹劾赖清德而是应该修改宪法我们大家要知道德国的威马宪法曾经号称全世界最完美的宪法但是也出现了纳粹的独裁我告诉各位世界上没有一个完美的宪法因此当权者的自治是非常必要的"},{"start":11072.537,"end":11097.617,"text":"不是能不能而是该不该做这些事赖总统他不是赖章鱼啊各位章鱼是什么多出手非常善于传绕能够缝隙能够钻就钻能够穿就穿他用每一条出手钻进制度的黑色地带灰色地带所以说我们是赖总统你不是赖章鱼啊第四个民进党面对大罢免到目前还不知道悔改"},{"start":11099.032,"end":11127.876,"text":"罷免是人民的基本权益但是民进党把它操作成斗争的工具要改变立法院少数的结构赖清德主导是要消灭在野党的大罷免这是民选独裁的重要迹象第五点我必须要讲吴思瑶说无爱无私 吴更爱真理对自己的老师当然可以攻击但是吴的批评的理由只是太肤浅了因此我也要谴责彭景鹏教授怎么教出这种学生但是换个角度来看"},{"start":11129.195,"end":11143.221,"text":"那位吳思耀委員只是維護他的意識形態跟政權而蒙蔽了他的良知吳委員充分地演繹了什麼是吳愛吳思吳更愛權力如果他今天不是民進黨的立委可能一切就恢復正常了"},{"start":11144.022,"end":11168.227,"text":"第六點 民進黨說民進黨代表說彈劾是中共的背後操作這真的可悲啊這永遠是民進黨的辯詞只要對自己不利就說是中共的陰謀第七點最後一點感想看到今天民進黨的表演我的感想台灣的民主真的是生病了謝謝大家好 謝謝張教授下一位我們請林俊宏律師好 謝謝主席"},{"start":11172.819,"end":11198.716,"text":"我還是要先強調一個部分因為這個部分其實剛剛前面一直都有提到就是說這件事情本質上是憲政上的僵局是立法權跟行政權的僵局僵局的解決就要回到我們的憲政制度去解決所以我剛剛在前面有提到憲政制度是什麼已經有講過了今天我們在這邊討論我想要用一個更白話的情境來談我們現在碰到的狀況假設大家設想有一個職業球隊"},{"start":11201.103,"end":11224.591,"text":"總教練他要選秀他每年都要選秀今天球探部門來了一份球探的報告球員的調查報告這個總教練後來基於他個人的判斷他決定不要依照這個報告來選秀他就這樣去選秀了這個時候選完了之後球員很生氣就是說你這總教練你為什麼不按照球探報告去選秀後來球迷去告球團老闆說你背信"},{"start":11232.554,"end":11260.882,"text":"这件事情跟我们现在讲的我们坐在这边处理的事情很接近很接近第一件事情是你的职权对象搞错了选秀到底谁在选总教练在选那他选的好不好他是他的裁量你去告球团老板说你犯罪你背信了第二件事情性质搞错了选秀选的好不好这个是经营判断那他就是评价的问题那也就是政治责任"},{"start":11262.213,"end":11287.353,"text":"那如果老闆沒有特別違法的狀況掏空球團或者是怎麼樣打假球的情形在這種狀況下你要去告老闆感覺上蠻奇怪的我們今天在這邊所處理的事情就是剛剛講的例子完全搞不清楚狀況我們試圖用法律責任的皮去包對於政治不爽的骨我們不只浪費我們寶貴的國家資源也在傷害我們的憲政體制"},{"start":11288.98,"end":11307.79,"text":"憲政體制不應該也不可以被降格為政治僵局底下的鬥爭工具如果我們對於我們現有的機制不滿意我們應該要誠實地面對我們的制度我們去討論修憲而不是在現行的框架底下玩這種標的錯誤邏輯不通的政治遊戲謝謝大家好 謝謝林律師下一位請彭錦鵬教授"},{"start":11316.448,"end":11342.378,"text":"第一點讓我看到剛剛王委員是多麼無知多麼無恥竟然敢挑戰我說的這個太難得了因為他根本不知道說大法官任期條款是我在國民大會擔任國大代表的時候我的提案我是領銜人我是設計者"},{"start":11344.051,"end":11369.569,"text":"我還有當年吳耿老師的手稿我都可以公佈這是第一點第二點剛剛亞中兄突然來一筆說我沒有教好吳思瑤這也太過分了我總共只教過他兩門課而已一個是人事管理一個是行政管理沒有管到他的政治意識第三點"},{"start":11374.099,"end":11391.077,"text":"剛剛齊璐兄已經講了非常多有關於我們憲法缺失的問題但是這些缺失的源頭都在於當年國民黨以為說還可以永續執政所以就不採用這個直選因為怕萬一直選總統的話"},{"start":11392.915,"end":11405.886,"text":"那麼會有什麼不好的結果對於長期執政會有所不好最後選擇的是一個我們只有一輪投票其實總統制國家大概都是兩輪兩輪選舉產生過半數的"},{"start":11410.45,"end":11436.859,"text":"那我們修憲確實有必要但是也確實不可能我也曾經長久以來我都提出來說如果要修憲的話我們大概要採用的辦法是叫做國際標的方式我們去選出來成套的憲法修正案然後由立法院來選擇哪一個是最好然後才交由人民公投我仍然覺得這是一個可行的方式"},{"start":11438.151,"end":11464.188,"text":"第三個是有關於大法官的提名套去民眾黨前黨主席柯文哲所講的其實一念之間奈親者總統如果一念之間會覺得說我們憲法是要保護的是要遵循的有這個義務的話他隨時可以在兩個月內提出適當的人選"},{"start":11465.458,"end":11490.777,"text":"当初我设计大法官任期条款的时候也都特别有叫做能够有一个复任的可能性虽然我们禁止了连任但是复任复任的意思就是像许忠利或者是汤德忠他们当过了但是过了一段时间以后他还是可以再续任的这没有问题"},{"start":11491.607,"end":11508.128,"text":"所以這完全看我們賴總統他願意不願意負責任的來互獻就這樣好 謝謝接下來我們請周威廷局長"},{"start":11512.674,"end":11531.102,"text":"好 剛才有人 吳委員說台語 我也練幾句台語了這個委員說 南白委員是沒有補的 他想要彈劾一招但是我們要自己信任說 這是立法院的權利這人既然是立法院的權利 這就是補嗎 第一點 他說彈劾不好"},{"start":11535.905,"end":11543.129,"text":"這才是內政總統說的小說內政總統也說彈劾不好是浪費時間但是抱歉 動724 動823科建民主黨也信任 總統完全知道這也是一個不好的大罷免 32比0我們民進黨朋友說大罷免是大漏氣這不但是浪費時間"},{"start":11565.533,"end":11589.44,"text":"還浪費了社會資本中選會說開到十五億總共合起來將近三十億這不是大氣味嗎接著我想針對我被批評說今天不知道跟彈劾有什麼關係其實我一開宗明義我就講了彈劾根據公務人員有沒有違法跟赤子我針對赤子我彈了違而不當當違而不違"},{"start":11592.011,"end":11621.184,"text":"不當而為所以我提出了警察人員人事條例三十五條的修正案來做例證甚至舉授軍人條例以及後來的教師以及公務人員的撫恤之前的條例跟辦法一再的申請釋憲認為治案難行剋寫的三分毀就是由大法官不足的大法官來做解釋"},{"start":11623.598,"end":11631.159,"text":"因此 這是誰在縱容 我剛剛講了 五院之首是誰 是我們今天賴清德總統他讓這樣子的做法不斷的發生 十歲之位一再的執行難道不應該被彈劾嗎 難道不應該彈劾嗎這就是彈劾的依據"},{"start":11652.97,"end":11672.911,"text":"當然剛才教授 佛教授也說了彈劾無效的原因是因為我們在立法院的支持這些法案的委員人數不足但它有宣誓性的意義讓人家知道我們是有一個違法違憲應該受到彈劾的總統這樣聽得懂嗎 謝謝"},{"start":11677.752,"end":11677.772,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":11702.948,"end":11724.648,"text":"謝謝剛剛的周局長也感謝我們今天各位學者專家綜合答覆的部分我們就到此為止今天的公聽會非常感謝各位學者專家以及審查小組的委員發表寶貴的意見本日公聽會的發言紀錄跟書面資料將依相關規定分送全體委員及"},{"start":11725.569,"end":11740.075,"text":"与会的学者专家作为参考并列入本院公报记录作为国会正式记录再次谢谢各位的与会今天第二场公听会就进行到此为止现在散会谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"167114","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167114","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b78dbf1d8505ac72b8f9a22b521a60036df79df2e988dc3d7842f56f076dfd423657b01c8c35754b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:16:57 - 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各位學者專家 各位委員還有準備離場的王逸川委員 大家好接下來我要發表一篇非常重要的彈劾宣言重量級的彈劾宣言我希望尤其民進黨的委員能夠豎起耳朵聽清楚非常重要 非常重要"},{"start":26.687,"end":53.551,"text":"有一点长 要花一点时间我把这个弹劾宣言念完作为国家领导人没有能力解决国家的问题对人民痛苦毫无感觉已经是严重的失职他发动政治斗争不仅粗暴蛮干无视法纪更对民主宪政缺乏起码的尊重"},{"start":54.963,"end":83.152,"text":"毁宪乱政逾越总统的宪法分际操控司法掩护行政也介入国会事务这是严重侵犯三权分立的宪政架构总统一人独大引起政局动荡民心不安也让台湾陷入严重的宪政危机让民主法治受到专政的威胁"},{"start":84.523,"end":101.08,"text":"為了守護民主 挽救憲政危機遏止總統違憲擴權的行為我們在立法院發動對總統的彈劾案理由有四第一 依照分權制衡的憲政原理"},{"start":102.23,"end":102.37,"text":"第二"},{"start":118.393,"end":146.613,"text":"依照宪法规定总统违法乱纪的行为是透过弹劾来制衡此次总统的行为涉及侵犯宪政秩序理应透过发动弹劾的宪政行动来反制第三依照立法院职权行使法总统弹劾案经立法委员二分之一的连述提议及交程序委员会编列议程提报院会"},{"start":147.779,"end":161.368,"text":"不經討論及交全院委員會審查在審查時得邀請總統列席說明透過總統必須親自面對國會此一程序可充分彰顯國會是總統的憲政監督機關角色"},{"start":166.952,"end":184.748,"text":"不容总统反过来践踏立法权第四弹劾案与表决时是以无记名方式进行相当程度可让立法委员的意志免于总统挟持有利国会自主意志的呈现"},{"start":185.729,"end":204.799,"text":"我們要嚴肅呼籲總統當立法院發動彈劾案時應該坦蕩接受國會的檢驗如果認為自己並無違憲行為請不要把手伸進立法院不能透過黨紀要求立法院黨團阻擋彈劾案同時"},{"start":206.124,"end":224.445,"text":"也要呼籲不分黨派所有立法委員將國會尊嚴放在政黨利益之上請一致支持彈劾案在立法院成案讓總統到立法院接受檢驗用憲法上的藥來治憲政的亂"},{"start":227.106,"end":249.602,"text":"這是2013年9月14號民進黨前主席蘇貞昌的彈劾宣言夠重量級吧字字句句穿透賴清德總統的心臟只要把他這個總統他說的是馬英九換成賴清德完全完美的貼合貼線這就是民進黨嘛"},{"start":253.55,"end":277.138,"text":"這是蘇貞昌的彈劾賴清澤總統宣言嘛預言家來來來我今天不是以羅志強身份坐在這個地方我是以蘇貞昌的身份坐在這個地方啊我幫蘇貞昌來說文解字他這麼偉大重量級名流輕始的彈劾宣言幫他重量級的說文解字一下"},{"start":278.484,"end":302.815,"text":"蘇貞昌說作為國家領導人沒有能力解決國家問題對人民痛苦毫無感覺嚴重失職說的就是賴清德蘇貞昌說他發動政治鬥爭粗暴蠻幹無視法紀對民主憲政缺乏尊重說的就是發動大惡霸政治鬥爭在野黨的賴清德總統"},{"start":306.04,"end":322.844,"text":"蘇貞昌說毀憲亂政逾越總統憲法分際操縱司法掩護行政說的就是賴清德今天把大法官會議搞成仇安會 五人仇安會違反所謂的憲政倫理"},{"start":324.324,"end":343.364,"text":"大法官之前自己都说死刑判决要一字决就这五位仇安会大法官可以直接把三个跟他不同意见的大法官直接名单剔除消音然后说我五个人说了算你之前死刑判决才说一字决"},{"start":344.406,"end":371.084,"text":"就是賴清德操控司法掩護行政蘇貞昌罵得太好了總統一人獨大民心不安侵犯三權分立的憲政架構蘇貞昌說也是在罵賴清德不附屬不執行不公佈整個毀憲亂政不就是蘇貞昌口中嚴重侵犯三權分立的憲政架構嗎"},{"start":373.421,"end":395.157,"text":"蘇貞昌說為了守護民主 挽救憲政危機所以要遏止違憲擴權的行為要在立法院發動對總統彈劾有四大理由蘇貞昌四大理由我來把蘇貞昌四大理由再說文解釋一下蘇貞昌說依照分權制衡憲政原理國會是總統的監督機關"},{"start":398.724,"end":419.17,"text":"對於總統侵犯立法權的行為國會有必要採取積極行動這是為什麼今天我們國會要提出對賴清德的彈劾案完全遵從蘇貞昌的指示啊第二個蘇貞昌說依照憲法規定總統違法亂紀行為要透過彈劾來"},{"start":425.693,"end":450.998,"text":"而總統的行為侵犯憲法秩序就要用彈劾的憲政行動來反制我們也是秉照蘇貞昌的主張用憲政行動來反制今天賴清德的毀憲亂政蘇貞昌說的第三個理由要邀請總統列席說明總統必須親自面對國會此一程序所以拜託賴清德總統聽聽蘇貞昌的話"},{"start":454.727,"end":479.545,"text":"下個禮拜邀請賴總統來立法院到會說明不要讓蘇貞昌失望應立法院的邀來國會來跟人民說明你種種毀憲亂政的行為辯護一下歡迎他來辯護一下蘇貞昌說第四點理由也非常好彈劾是無記名"},{"start":480.802,"end":508.351,"text":"我們應該讓立法委員的意志免於總統瑕疵所以有利國會自主所以呼籲不要把手伸進立法院也不要透過黨紀來約束民進黨的立法委員阻擋彈劾案賴總統聽聽蘇貞昌的話公開宣布歡迎民進黨的立委撥亂反正加入彈劾賴清德總統的行列"},{"start":509.771,"end":538.582,"text":"蘇貞昌說他呼籲不分黨派的立法委員將國會尊嚴放在政黨利益之上一致支持彈劾案在立法院成案要請總統到立法院接受檢驗蘇貞昌說用憲法上的藥來治憲政上的亂就讓我們用彈劾來治今天賴清德總統在憲政上的作亂最後我要說的是"},{"start":539.943,"end":560.245,"text":"今天我們可以看到一個只獲得40%雙少數的戴慶德總統他當選時候說行政立法協調合作共同推動國政但他說一套做一套在他任期這一年半的期間"},{"start":562.164,"end":589.592,"text":"親自發動大惡霸政治鬥爭請全部的力量動用司法清算在野黨的主席然後搜索清算在野黨的黨部然後他又同時把手伸進司法搞出了五人華天下大機制五人大法官籌安會來為他的今天的毀憲亂政做遮羞補"},{"start":591.533,"end":601.441,"text":"他創立了不附屬不公佈不執行的憲政首要惡力來侵犯立法權這樣的總統不彈劾他彈劾誰 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167111","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167111","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b78dbf1d8505ac72497051ec97b0dae66df79df2e988dc3d7842f56f076dfd4260a2c0502c4bf3f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:46:42 - 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謝謝今天參與的立委同仁以及學者專家們我就扣合著王育民委員剛剛所說的立法院正在寫歷史 這是台灣史上第一次的彈劾總統案"},{"start":15.273,"end":40.268,"text":"那麼我們就要負責任的寫下好的歷史對的歷史而不是無法對後代交代無法對歷史交代並不是賴清德總統違憲亂政而是我們有了史上前所未有惡上加惡的立法院我同意王玉民委員說的現在的憲政僵局問題在於人沒有錯"},{"start":41.172,"end":62.487,"text":"因为我们有了一再的违反宪法宪政机关平等相违原则一再的认为国会优位立院最大的在野党的立委们这些人才是真正出了问题的核心那下一页我其实不想提但我必须提早在这一届国会还未组成"},{"start":63.047,"end":86.409,"text":"正在即將組成的2024年2月1號前習近平已經下達指示拿下台灣戰場就在立法院我們來看看習近平國台辦頒布的佔領台灣立法院制高點的統戰戰略要點裡頭的幾項目標工作是不是就是台灣現在國會的社會進行式包括"},{"start":87.871,"end":114.711,"text":"來癱瘓台灣的國防自主包括用國會濫權來提出國會的調查權要求總統的質詢權要求總統到立院備詢不也正是現在彈劾案的現在進行式嗎包括習近平所指示的讓九二共識成為國會統戰互動的最高原則那我們來看看這不就是現在鄭麗文的所作所為嗎"},{"start":116.152,"end":141.892,"text":"所以說呢不是台灣社會在關心總統彈劾恐怕對岸也有相當高度的關切為什麼呢 下一頁當我們看到蔡正元 邱毅 郭正亮發起的彈劾賴清德總統的連署網站然後快速的被踢爆這個網站造假甚至一度暴增到高達14億人14億人來同意"},{"start":145.734,"end":171.501,"text":"彈劾賴清德總統那這樣一個假網站就搭配著認知作戰他的協力者就有這些發起連署的人有台灣的紅媒有中國的官媒一套劇本一條龍的操作連彈劾總統都大搞認知作戰煽動人民仇恨政府我們再看下一頁"},{"start":172.681,"end":185.034,"text":"國台辦果不其然很快速的紅藍白口徑一致都要求彈劾賴清德如果在野黨的委員要撇清反對這些"},{"start":187.341,"end":207.799,"text":"作為那為什麼自己自甘成為工具人為什麼自己讓自己跟中國的操作畫上了等號呢下一頁我們來看真實的民意喔民進黨的民調67%支持國會先審預算先顧民生而不支持大搞彈劾"},{"start":208.84,"end":222.572,"text":"你不相信民進黨的民調沒有關係我們看看一平新聞的民調也高達74%反對彈劾賴清德總統更也可以參考鄭傳媒委託山水民調公司的高達45%是不贊成彈劾總統的所以說下一頁"},{"start":226.916,"end":250.761,"text":"藍白所提的彈劾總統的三大謬誤就是欲加之罪何患無辭從把賴總統冠上獨裁總統或是毀憲亂政的罪名都是莫須有強加人於罪所以這是欲加之罪何患無辭的彈劾這也是畫錯重點搞錯方向的彈劾如果要追究總統的政治責任"},{"start":252.201,"end":269.631,"text":"請去勇敢的倒閣吧難道在野黨害怕民意的最終仲裁嗎而如果要藉由彈劾來要求邀請賴清德總統列席立法院那麼何必捨盡求遠就去走符合憲法規範的國情報告不就得了嗎第三這也是虛張聲勢自我催眠的假彈劾"},{"start":277.896,"end":300.029,"text":"因為藍白沒有三分之二的利潤席次而憲法法庭也被你們癱瘓被你們摧毀你們都知道這是一個彈劾不成的彈劾案下一頁我們來看看剛剛審發會委員針對這個天下奇聞大家一起共賞就是藍白所提的發動彈劾總統案的暗由"},{"start":303.215,"end":327.204,"text":"你們一再講幾個關鍵字就是賴清德是獨裁總統你們一再說賴清德是違憲亂政的總統在場也有我台大政研所的老師彭女彭老師無愛無私無更愛真理剛剛彭老師所說的賴清德是違憲的總統賴清德是違憲慣犯的總統不好意思無愛無私無更愛真理"},{"start":328.184,"end":352.578,"text":"賴清德總統是一個維護憲法的總統而藍白主導的立法院才是違憲上癮的立法院看看如果台灣有獨裁總統我們能夠讓在野黨的委員依循憲法的機制在立法院搞彈劾在立法院舉辦公聽會一再的羞辱總統做出這些"},{"start":353.519,"end":371.42,"text":"毫無事實依據的這些政治攻擊如果台灣是獨裁的國家何以能夠在立院發動彈劾呢所以這足以證明我們今天在這裡進行的公聽會台灣並不是獨裁國家更沒有獨裁總統 下一頁"},{"start":372.822,"end":384.262,"text":"沒有獨裁總統只有獨裁國會這些近父惡毒不經討論協商過水黑箱表決的議案才是獨裁國會的本質下一頁而"},{"start":385.211,"end":409.439,"text":"前所未見藍白真的寫下了台灣的歷史兩年有八個議案被申請釋憲中其中兩案已經被宣判違憲誰違憲亂證正是藍白主導的立法院兩年八個法案涉及違憲憲法法庭正在審議當中而兩案已經被宣判違憲下一頁"},{"start":413.74,"end":430.011,"text":"我們更要說除了今天的彈劾總統案在野黨以禁覆二讀以立院決議的方式譴責大法官宣判憲判無效的這一個提案違反了憲法78條違反了憲法訴訟法38條更違反釋字185號的解釋誰在違憲亂政"},{"start":436.636,"end":462.873,"text":"就是這種提案下一頁誰在違憲亂政在野黨甚至要用公投法來凌駕憲法要用公投來推翻憲判我們在場這麼多學者專家法律不能凌駕憲法這是所有學法律學政治的基本ABC所以誰在違憲亂政呢是立法院自證其罪下一頁"},{"start":464.215,"end":476.086,"text":"而在提案要求彈劾總統的理由裡頭剛剛一直講到大罷免國民黨你們要確定耶大罷免是人民發動的"},{"start":477.625,"end":497.396,"text":"真正發動大惡霸的是貴黨國民黨而坐在這裡的吳思瑤就是現在全台灣真的是被寫下歷史偽造連署高達2674份全台灣從以前到現在偽造連署死亡人連署高達94%這一個驚人的"},{"start":501.358,"end":514.426,"text":"歷史記錄我真的很遺憾是記錄在吳思瑤身上因為國民黨要搞大惡霸是你們用違法的方式你們要大惡霸沒搞成而已呀"},{"start":516.263,"end":545.803,"text":"人民依據憲法提起罷免的權利就如同今天在野黨的委員依據憲法提起彈劾總統一樣都是依據憲法那為什麼立法院可以人民不能夠行使他的罷免的基本公民權呢不要兩套標準而事實上國民黨才是發動大惡霸的元首只是你們沒有成功而已我就是當事人我也是受害者"},{"start":548.564,"end":562.21,"text":"至于法案不附属到底有没有构成弹劾总统的正当理由呢不管我们在场的陈一凯律师陈一凯教授有非常多的发表的意见我们也来看看陈一前教授所说的"},{"start":563.03,"end":586.057,"text":"行政院長行使憲法賦予的正當防衛權利怎麼會構成彈劾總統的理由呢羅承宗教授所說林佳和教授所說下一頁甚至許志雄大法官所說的行政院長的不附屬是阻止違憲法案的公佈實行那你要追究行政院長的政治責任再說一次 那你就去倒閣吧"},{"start":587.13,"end":600.593,"text":"那陈怡凯教授谢谢两天给我们非常精彩的论述我就不再赘述了所以呢法案不附属并不构成弹劾总统的合理合线的理由最后"},{"start":601.792,"end":625.127,"text":"要藉由大搞彈劾來羞辱總統在立法院搭建出一個可以羞辱總統政治表演的舞台倒數會期末的11天為什麼不審預算不審軍購至民生於何處至國安於何處呢好 最後時間我30秒收數這一本是周萬來秘書長寫的書"},{"start":627.148,"end":646.965,"text":"非常清楚針對總統的國情報告只要合憲合規總統願意來他多次表達而周萬來秘書長過去的著作就清楚的說明了國會進行國情報告是得邀請而不是應邀請"},{"start":648.166,"end":667.667,"text":"而急问急答并不是宪法赋予立法院的权利因为对立法院负责的是行政院长不是总统下一页好 谢谢好 最后一个我收束一下如果说要邀请赖总统来国情报告请合宪合规"},{"start":668.227,"end":692.501,"text":"因為過去針對違憲的急問急答的方式馬英九總統 王金平院長都說過萬萬不可不要讓台灣的憲政秩序而整個被大開民主的倒車我以這個頁面來收束過去馬英九怎麼說 王金平怎麼說現在的藍白委員"},{"start":693.562,"end":701.617,"text":"請不要一再的寫下錯誤的歷史寫下負面的歷史中華民國的國會不能夠讓惡例成為慣例"}]}},{"id":"167112","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167112","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b78dbf1d8505ac72f6cdca1932235a426df79df2e988dc3d7842f56f076dfd4243de59c930387d485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:58:30 - 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大家好我想今天是非常重要的一個歷史時刻"},{"start":21.035,"end":45.22,"text":"我們今天面臨了中華民國第一次史上由立法院所提出來的總統彈劾案其實我們心情是非常沉重的就如同剛才很多的先進所講的按照我們現在的這個憲政體制要讓總統彈劾成功事實上它的難度確實非常高不要說現在立法院"},{"start":45.78,"end":71.789,"text":"没有三分之二的再也洗刺而且还要经过宪法法庭而最近宪法法庭的表现我们几乎可以确定那么其实就已经如同赖总统的靳远靳卫军一样的但是我们必须去写下历史因为当独裁成为事实弹劾就是我们的责任"},{"start":72.961,"end":88.394,"text":"当独裁成为事实弹劾就是我们的责任我想以下我要讲一下我们现在为何要弹劾赖清德总统因为他确实一步一步的走向弹劾之路"},{"start":89.628,"end":108.241,"text":"首先在去年發起的大罷免剛才民進黨的委員都說這是人民發起的啊可是這是由民進黨黨團總召柯建民總召他對外公開的說在整個大罷免過程裡面賴總統每個禮拜都聽取報告"},{"start":112.964,"end":134.329,"text":"他完全掌控請問一下這是一個完全由人民由下而上所發起的大罷免嗎不要自欺欺人人民不是笨蛋所以在去年32比0其實社會已經告訴你這樣子一個由"},{"start":136.693,"end":152.705,"text":"總統所發起的這樣的一個大罷免浪費社會資源造成社會對立大家已經告訴你最新的民意可是請問一下賴總統他有因此而節制嗎"},{"start":154.221,"end":175.781,"text":"所以我必須要說剛才吳思瑤委員也說現在最主要的問題是人出了問題這個人是在立法院的人出了問題他當然指的是在野黨的立委可是人民不是告訴你了嗎32比0大罷免大失敗到底是誰出問題呢"},{"start":177.76,"end":200.111,"text":"為什麼我們賴總統即便經過這樣的一個教訓和洗禮人民這樣的意志這麼清楚的告訴你你仍然不懂節制呢另外行政權獨裁拒絕依法行政我們特別一直在講在過去"},{"start":201.283,"end":227.385,"text":"再怎麼獨裁總統再怎麼專權但是不可能容許在立法院已經完備程序通過的法律我們竟然在行政部門拒絕執行在去年我們通過了對於第一線前線軍人的加薪案"},{"start":228.41,"end":249.981,"text":"我們也通過了退休景銷的所得替代率提高但是在今年度的總預算裡面行政院拒絕編列這是一個經過行政院長附屬以及總統公布實施的法律但是竟然可以不執行剛才吳思耀"},{"start":251.57,"end":276.82,"text":"委員也刻意的再把這一次的彈劾案去故意去牽扯好像這是又是中共的在地協力者這樣的話術這樣的帶風向這樣的抹紅抹黑不就是去年大罷免的重現嗎可是已經告訴你人民不吃這一套"},{"start":277.935,"end":304.978,"text":"另外我們所通過的法律案包含對於現在第一線我們的國軍官兵弟兄的加薪案請問一下我們提振我們軍人的士氣我們是中共的在地協力者嗎我們照顧我們的退休警消人員我們又變成了中共的在地協力者嗎這到底是什麼邏輯"},{"start":306.84,"end":332.859,"text":"欲加之罪何患無辭我必須說今天賴總統的悲哀呀就是在於他一再的用抗中移轉自己執政的無能一再用抗中來說用這樣合理化自己的一個獨裁的行為好我剛才講行政權的獨裁我們看到"},{"start":334.761,"end":343.613,"text":"這兩天一直說你們找錯對象了是行政院長不附屬啊所以呢你們應該去彈劾的是"},{"start":345.61,"end":368.497,"text":"這個行政院長你們應該去提出這個不信任案當然他希望用倒閣的方式來進行所謂的大罷免2.08我們今天看到日本高市早苗首相他決定要解散國會重新選舉高市自己也會下來選啊"},{"start":370.359,"end":394.55,"text":"所以今天賴清德總統他坐在那邊受到這個憲政的保護竟然告訴我們你們去倒閣然後大家再重新選舉我直接說賴清德總統你如果下來跟我們一起選你這個才有正當性啊你在那邊說的是把人民當作三歲的小孩嗎"},{"start":396.337,"end":423.939,"text":"所以我們在這邊為什麼特別提出我們不能一而再再而三的放任行政院拒絕實施立法院所通過的法律這是行政逾越了自己的權力的底線那我們當然很清楚知道這個真正的元兇當然不是卓榮泰而是賴清德總統另外司法權的獨裁"},{"start":425.345,"end":454.283,"text":"枉法裁判除了行政權之外賴總統已經把他的手伸向了司法我們這兩天有很多的論述我們的憲法法庭受到限訴法的限制應該根本無權去開會好他說我們新通過的限訴法是違憲的必須10人以上才可以組成憲法法庭"},{"start":455.103,"end":471.418,"text":"但是我們就退一萬步來說也就是現在所採用的舊的限訴法憲法法庭的組成也要現有總額的三分之二起碼六名大法官"},{"start":472.429,"end":487.078,"text":"所以我们在去年竟然我们违法的宪法法庭去做成了114年宪判制第一号根本是无效判决而且是荒唐的一个判决"},{"start":489.913,"end":508.683,"text":"憲法法庭可以完全的違法作為司法最高機關也可以違法但是這後面又是賴總統後面的撐腰不是嗎也是賴總統的授意不是嗎所以這是一個司法權獨裁"},{"start":511.472,"end":530.57,"text":"這樣子的一個作為其實跟最近被美國逮捕的委內瑞拉總統馬杜洛他就是因為國會他沒有辦法掌握多數所以他把他的親信放在他最高法院然後判決所有國會裡面通過的法律通過的預算全部無效"},{"start":532.037,"end":555.347,"text":"所以今天我們能讓台灣委內瑞拉化嗎可以讓司法權獨裁整個的一樣愉悅踐踏了立法權嗎而且最好笑的是賴總統竟然會說出一個現在叫做在野獨裁真的是全球獨步啊"},{"start":556.468,"end":578.068,"text":"全世界的民主憲政的專家都應該向賴總統請教請問一下我們現在的總統除了立法院之外掌握了行政院考試院監察院還有最重要的是司法權請問一下在野如何獨裁呢"},{"start":579.085,"end":596.847,"text":"所以今天我們一步一步走向這樣子的行政獨裁再也獨裁我們如果可以縱容我們如果沉默我們會眼睜睜看著台灣要走向變成委內瑞拉嗎"},{"start":598.188,"end":613.781,"text":"我們要讓賴清德會朝向韓國的前總統尹錫悅一樣走向一個獨裁之路嗎所以今天我們在歷史上必須留下見證當獨裁成為事實彈劾就是我們的責任謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167113","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167113","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b78dbf1d8505ac728c54526545a23a2d6df79df2e988dc3d7842f56f076dfd42508f01eb9e990b995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"11:08:51 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謝謝主席 還有線上的好朋友今天聽整個會議對面的學者專家講的這個內容我最欽佩的就是張其祿教授他這樣開宗明義的說今天這是一個制度的討論一個制度的討論因為這制度上的某種的設計"},{"start":29.141,"end":32.424,"text":"今天要辦這個公聽會後面還要討論什麼那個我想我們就彼此尊重好不好來繼續 主席那個什麼意思來 請繼續發言沒關係我用什麼話講是我的管理啦"},{"start":56.934,"end":64.019,"text":"你如果聽不到 聽不到去找翻譯啦 莫名其妙我講我的話你就是不懂什麼意思啊對面啦 這學者專家今天每一個人講的話在書上都會記錄啦啊 張祺祿教授講這套討論 這我非常贊成 非常贊成啊 張祺祿教授講了後面幾個教授講的話 我也非常認同啦"},{"start":84.233,"end":90.421,"text":"當然也有人嘲諷啦嘲諷說那些什麼大碗粥那些什麼他褻瀣 我拿你的飯盤啦那又叫你褻瀣啦說一個沒辦法查證的東西還要你嘲諷"},{"start":98.012,"end":108.197,"text":"所以請不要立法委員不要亂講話那個都有國民大會的記錄等一下我們會有回應時間好不好學者專家這邊我們待會有30分鐘的回應時間現在我們就請委員繼續發言你跟我說我也沒什麼意見來 王委員請繼續發言怎麼會這樣啊請學者專家才不會亂來我們繼續發言 來"},{"start":126.735,"end":134.936,"text":"今天這是一個制度的討論 現在如果是行政院對立法院通過的法律跟自愛人行申請這個復議 說什麼復議沒過就沒了啊復議沒過 接受是說你不可以復議 你當然也可以去申請釋憲啊你當然現在要規定 行政院一定有一個附屬的權利啊不然你就把附屬的權利給掉啊"},{"start":156.186,"end":167.856,"text":"啊不就來修憲啊 把他骨頭劈掉啊行政院長不復甦 現場裡面就說他要復甦 須復甦啊須復甦就是可以復甦 也可以不要復甦啊啊不就他骨頭劈掉啊連這個也要廢啊這廢好 這廢可以 這就是制度的討論不是個人的討論我告訴你啊 現在這樣你如果不開心啊不開心啊你就把這個行政議長給他上彈劾啊"},{"start":185.848,"end":200.1,"text":"我不知道你們不要把行政議長刪除 因為彈劾的寬利是乾淨而已啊你們就比不上啊你說我沒有把這個行政議長 我沒有來把這個不信任我們不信任我們一定會過啊 你們也不要啊你不信任我們之後就全部定選啊 你們也不要啊這道理大家都說很久了 後來你們就想了一招說要來彈劾總統"},{"start":214.965,"end":225.608,"text":"還要來彈劾總統 要彈劾總統也沒問題 這是立法院的管理連署裡面 理由有在你寫 彈劾總統裡面還有一個理由說因為台積電要去美國 這條可以彈劾總統這條可以彈劾總統 理由有在你寫 反正倒霉就是來投票來標判"},{"start":238.513,"end":257.56,"text":"要投票 要表決 也很簡單啊 公共的就開始來投票不是 齁 你們很厲害 世界創五個月還要下降 還要辦20多張 用國家的主權在拚你們的選舉我怎麼聽得到 怎麼看得到你們20多個官司 那就是你們的好選人還要去辦的時候 就要去做幾套的"},{"start":265.014,"end":271.195,"text":"用國家的資源在拼你們的選舉要拖到五月還要投票還要投票就這兩天半班的就來投票不需要這樣拖簡單講你們就是要亂了你們就是要亂了你們現在幾天也都說了國民黨的台獨也這樣說了這就不會過你們也知道不會過可是要繞記錄不會過還要繞記錄不會過"},{"start":295.093,"end":303.674,"text":"規定很重要 為什麼因為你後來擺在世界兩港說要叫總統來 要來把這個補救要來把這個吞吐 要來把他拍開 要把他撈開就這樣而已 你們有其他目的嗎 沒有啊你們就是要這樣而已 台灣人敢看嗎你們就這樣 大家說幾句 說到嘴巴全破目的就是要給辣情敵 拍開 要給總統拍開"},{"start":325.441,"end":331.084,"text":"正常的現化的程序不要走不信任我們這個處理行政議長你也不要你也看 那有千千萬萬個走龍泰制度的世界 如果制度的世界你覺得不高興制度的世界你覺得不高興就來修憲 如果修修多條就整期不要修憲看要衝一波新的也可以對不對 你這樣一直拖一直拖讓你們在這裡講這些話"},{"start":355.768,"end":358.411,"text":"我看到就想說你們那些全國行為就很臭味,用國家的錢去煉煉煤,煉這個熱情滴,這樣要說這要怕人家再彈劾,我是不知道說,臨江這個特政地的、特法律的教科書裡面,要怎麼記錄這條"},{"start":376.426,"end":396.82,"text":"記住這條彈劾發起彈劾的政黨說 我也知道不會過發起一個知道不會過的彈劾這叫做教科書罵什麼這教科書罵對面也很多法律的專家啦 政治的專家啦人家你敢說什麼什麼說 中華民國在思想 台灣在思想在野黨發動一個不會通過的彈劾"},{"start":406.181,"end":413.767,"text":"這是要怎麼解釋 解釋法先聽說我們就是開心的 怎樣我們就是要衝下去 怎樣難道是這樣來解釋嗎所以今天這個講聽會我聽起來高雄話說得真有道理阿偉愛抄端 阿偉意識形態太狂還有人怕不對非議性 又怕不對非議性"},{"start":435.287,"end":442.291,"text":"第一天有到位 叫我們今天的主題無關的阿媽大講十分鐘 你是去吃了黃國昌的翅膀黃國昌在這順序內就沒有在教主題今天在討論的是彈劾賴清德的公聽話講一講就叫今天的題目都無關的阿媽大這樣講 不知道對一個政黨推薦的所以 最後 簡單結論今天這個公聽會辦了 我是建議這樣"},{"start":463.607,"end":467.332,"text":"要投票要標高要彈劾賴清德來金融用的啊反正就不會過你們要拖為了你們個人政黨的選舉還要全國行為用國家的錢辦這個選舉實在是沒意思啦 以上好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167110","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167110","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b78dbf1d8505ac7205d677d0893b88106df79df2e988dc3d19ac1d408aac4431ccafdc092bcebbf35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:36:20 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各位媒體朋友各位專家學者 大家好我想今天我們是在寫歷史為什麼這麼說在立法院我們是第一次針對彈劾總統這樣的一個案子來召開公聽會我相信都沒有人參加過大家都是第一次為什麼會有這樣子歷史上的第一次"},{"start":27.412,"end":51.574,"text":"立法院必須提出彈劾總統這樣的一個彈劾案因為賴清德總統是無前例的不公布由立法院通過的法律案這個是中華民國我們民選總統以來從來沒有一個總統做到這件事情"},{"start":52.415,"end":75.133,"text":"而賴清德公然違反了憲法的義務跟責任他竟然可以用不公布立法院三讀通過的法律這就是明顯的違憲所以這樣的一個史無前例讓我們必須召開公聽會今天有這樣的一個彈劾案"},{"start":76.454,"end":92.389,"text":"那這樣的一個史無前例我覺得賴清德總統沒有擔當敢做而不敢當剛剛有包括學者或者是委員說為什麼對象不是針對卓榮泰要針對賴清德我讓大家來複習一下為什麼今天彈劾的對象是賴清德總統"},{"start":101.077,"end":123.145,"text":"在立法院通过的财划法这个我让大家还原一下那个顺序在立法院通过的财政收支划分法这个行政院他有提出复议他是在114年12月5号立法院投票表决"},{"start":124.145,"end":142.314,"text":"就是維持原案所以他的復議案並沒有通過按照憲法徵修條文第三條明定復議時如今全體立法委員二分之一以上決議維持原案行政院院長應即接受該決議"},{"start":144.395,"end":160.025,"text":"而總統更需要依中華民國憲法第72條規定立法院法律案通過後移送總統及行政院總統英語收到後10日內公佈"},{"start":162.089,"end":178.424,"text":"這些憲法明文規定的文字如果按照憲法來12月5號立法院已經否決了行政院的復議案總統按照規定應該要在114年12月15號公佈實施結果"},{"start":184.517,"end":206.098,"text":"媒體都有報導12月12號總統主動找了民進黨的立委進行了一場便當會他選擇在應該12月15號公佈之前匆匆忙忙就召開了一場便當會然後這一場便當會"},{"start":207.799,"end":221.104,"text":"召開完之後他就對外宣布就是採取不附屬或附屬之後不執行這不是公然下指導棋什麼才是"},{"start":222.844,"end":237.414,"text":"我們看到了總統公然的去找了民進黨的立委來召開這場會議定調了不附屬結果從昨天的專家學者或是民進黨的委員都說你們應該要找卓榮泰"},{"start":239.062,"end":261.814,"text":"冤有頭債有主啊敢做不敢當賴清德總統公然找了民進黨的委員召開了這場會議而且強硬劃壓如果大家有印象的話當時柯建民總召我們佩服他他還是在專業方面是比較深厚的比較有法學素養的他認為萬萬不可但是"},{"start":265.287,"end":277.432,"text":"很難獨排眾議所以這個卓榮泰就照單全收請問今天我們提出這樣的彈劾案對象是總統真的沒有道理嗎"},{"start":279.468,"end":297.256,"text":"真的沒有道理嗎所以我希望民進黨的委員不用再繼續護航賴總統既然敢做就敢當完完全全都是他下令的嘛所以今天民進黨有很多的委員說哎呀你們就是提倒閣啊倒閣有用嗎"},{"start":298.55,"end":327.41,"text":"今天走了一個卓榮泰不會來一個鄭麗君嗎或來一個潘孟安嗎那他們要不要聽命賴清德總統的命令當然要啊在我們現在的憲政架構底下我們的行政院院長充其量就是總統的執行長而已我們不是真正的內閣制我們現在的卓榮泰院長他並沒有來自民意的基礎跟權力"},{"start":328.936,"end":351.486,"text":"那請問一個行政院院長可以針對立法院最高的民意機構我們所通過的法令他可以不附屬嗎他可以不附屬來架空立法院嗎請問他的權力基礎來自於哪裡不是內閣制的首長哪來那麼大的一個權力"},{"start":352.99,"end":380.139,"text":"所以你不覺得這件事情非常的荒謬嗎如果一個行政院院長可以任意的用不附屬來架控立法院通過的法令那請問陳水扁時期也是嘲笑也大他當時所任命的行政院院長我相信他對於立法院所做的決議他可能也不見得百分之百的認同或者是接受但是他們都守住了"},{"start":381.469,"end":400.515,"text":"憲法跟法律的底線我們是五權分立的國家一個行政院院長目前我們的憲法賦予他的就是你不同意的時候你就提起復议但是復议失敗之後憲法明文規定你就是必須要遵守"},{"start":401.673,"end":426.512,"text":"这个才是我们民主法治应该维持的一个最好的框架跟架构吧所以真的是制度完全出了问题吗我今天在公听会我要说恐怕是人出了问题如果过去陈水扁总统在嘲笑野大的时候我们也没有看到他发动大罢免针对在野党所有的区域委员一律罢免"},{"start":427.333,"end":452.021,"text":"我們也沒有看到陳水扁總統他對於立法院通過的法令竟然可以進行不公佈那這是人的問題還是是制度的問題我必須說賴清德總統他在法治的觀念上面出了非常大的一個問題過去他擔任市長的時候就可以因為不認同這個議會的議長"},{"start":454.562,"end":470.118,"text":"他就不履行一个市长到议会去接受备询接受议会监督这样的一个做法而遭到了监察院的弹劾那他今天作为国家的元首故态复明又来了一遍"},{"start":471.119,"end":492.187,"text":"他今天竟然可以違反憲法針對立法院通過的法律案他要求卓榮泰不附屬然後還裝模作樣變成說不是我不公佈是因為他不附屬所以我才不能公佈這個也未免太惺惺作態了要敢做敢當"},{"start":494.383,"end":515.438,"text":"最後我要提出來的是我們不允許中華民國邁向民主獨裁我們不允許我們好不容易創建的民主法治的體制竟然可以在賴清德擔任總統的時候他可以用個人的意志就要來做這個扭曲跟破壞"},{"start":517.062,"end":534.273,"text":"美國的開國元勳、美國憲法之父James Madison,他在聯邦黨的人文集第47篇,他有特別指出,當立法權、行政權和司法權集中於一人之手,我們都可以恰當地稱為這是保證。"},{"start":536.855,"end":565.409,"text":"而目前我們看到的賴清德總統他試圖要架空立法院的立法權他用司法去迫害政敵他現在在這一個大法官的部分不提名不履行他的總統的職責而且用五個大法官就要來做釋憲這個都是在在的違反了民主迫害了我們的法治"},{"start":566.81,"end":583.332,"text":"最後我要講的是在憲政之上沒有人可以領教在民主之前也沒有旁觀者所以今天我們都在寫歷史對一個違法濫權的總統我們一定要留下記錄"},{"start":584.614,"end":605.666,"text":"而很多人都說這一個彈劾案根本不會通過重點是在這個過程我們要讓全國的民眾了解而我也套用柯總召的一句話他常常說起義來歸我想民進黨裡面的委員如果想要繼續守護我們的憲法"},{"start":606.306,"end":617.269,"text":"最終我們在投票的時候我們也希望呼應有志之士希望守護中華民國憲政與法治的民進黨委員可以起義來歸以上 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謝謝 謝謝今天一起來到我們立法院來參與的學者專家謝謝本院到場的委員 各位新聞界的好朋友非常感謝大家能夠今天播種參加今天立法院所舉辦的公聽會那依據中華民國憲法《徵修條文及立法院職權刑事法規定》"},{"start":1766.732,"end":1788.507,"text":"總統彈劾案需經本院全體立法委員二分之一提議交付全院委員會審查審查後提出院會經全體立法委員三分之二以上的決議向司法院大法官提出彈劾案特別跟與會的專家學者各界報告"},{"start":1791.254,"end":1801.241,"text":"本院副坤崎委員等、黃國昌委員等分別依上開規定對賴清德總統提出彈劾案之提議"},{"start":1802.798,"end":1820.774,"text":"經第15次會議決定,在全院委員會審查彈劾前,於1月14日及15日舉行兩場全院委員會公聽會。本院依照院會決定,今天舉行第一場公聽會,廣納各界意見。"},{"start":1822.915,"end":1832.56,"text":"作為首次審查彈劾案之參考在此特別感謝為本次公聽會所有與會專家以及各位委員所做的準備與發言"},{"start":1835.685,"end":1856.218,"text":"針對今天公聽會進行的程序,我們現在做以下宣告。發言時間,每位學者專家發表時間為10分鐘。審查小組委員,每位詢問時間同樣為10分鐘。本院委員發言完畢之後,再由學者專家代表綜合答覆30分鐘。"},{"start":1857.159,"end":1882.773,"text":"因此 請各位學者專家發表高見後也能聽取本院各黨團所推派之委員代表之詢問發言最後還要請各位學者專家賜教答覆二 發言順序 先由學者專家發言賜由審查小組委員發言最後再由學者專家綜合答覆相關發言順序 請參院陳列於各位桌上的名單"},{"start":1884.98,"end":1907.612,"text":"各黨團所推薦的學者專家、審查小組委員如果不在場或者必要時得互相調換次序另外在發言時間結束前一分鐘會按一短鈴發言時間介致時再按一長鈴現在我們開始進行發言首先我們請蔣貴美教授請發言"},{"start":1911.692,"end":1916.324,"text":"主席 在場所有的來賓 大家好我想因為時間有限 那我就坐著發言"},{"start":1921.67,"end":1949.949,"text":"在很短的时间里面我有提供书面稿我想几个重点第一个重点是今天来参加这个公听会心情是非常沉重的为什么呢因为我们走过宪改走过78年的国事会议走过很多的重大的冲突跟激荡但是我觉得中华民国成立以来到现在这是宪政史上空前的危机"},{"start":1950.869,"end":1965.916,"text":"那這個危機大家都非常清楚從賴總統上任之後我們的憲政紛爭不斷我想第一個我要釐清的一個問題就是民主政治的本質到底是什麼"},{"start":1966.656,"end":1994.366,"text":"它是一人一票每票等值我们不能忽略任何一个声音如果我们40%的选票要对60%的选票完全视而不见要对国会的二分之一视而不见要对复议失败的案子仍然坚持要送大法官的宪法法庭去视线用司法来解决政治上少数的事实我觉得这个是宪政上"},{"start":1995.006,"end":2011.212,"text":"动荡不安的关键那所以呢我们要看到事实面从112年这个宪法法庭成立以来112年113年正常运作了两年大概每一年将近20个案子左右"},{"start":2013.334,"end":2030.551,"text":"114年我們出現了憲判制第一號115年出現了憲判制第一號這兩號都是在五人大法官的決議之下評議出來的它是明顯的違法違憲那但是"},{"start":2031.826,"end":2054.85,"text":"之后会不会有115宪判之第二号第三号第四号而赖总统坚持仍然不提大法官的人权到立法院我们不得而知但是无效的判决不会因为时间经过而变成有效而且无效的判决它是自始无效它是当然无效它是意思表示无效"},{"start":2056.151,"end":2081.398,"text":"這個是我們從大學時候就知道的是今天全國千萬的新興學子我們如何教導他們要遵守法治第二個問題呢我想非常清楚我們在這個一一三憲判之第九號那個是立法院職權行使法重大的國會改革法案一一三憲判之第九號"},{"start":2082.498,"end":2098.841,"text":"他是复议失败立法院职权刑事法经过修正以后三读通过然后那时候总统至少还公布复议失败然后送去大法官宪法法庭去这个所谓的判决性的解释"},{"start":2100.044,"end":2116.373,"text":"可是立法院三讀通過的法案兵敗如山倒,請問立機何在?立機何在?我想大家都有想讀。同樣的問題,今天更嚴重的是連公佈都不公佈了。"},{"start":2117.794,"end":2127.543,"text":"連行政院長要附屬也不附屬了我們先不談國外各國的大道理我們也沒那個時間但是我們一清二楚知道我們憲法七十二條裡面總統應於收到法案後十日內公佈之它是強制規定"},{"start":2135.816,"end":2161.935,"text":"它是MUST這個所謂的因啊憲法裡面的因非常少請大家用搜尋的方式把憲法裡面總統因的字找出來它到底有幾條寥寥可數72條明文規定總統因於收到後10日內公佈之而且沒有但書條款沒有例外條款沒有排除條款"},{"start":2163.089,"end":2184.592,"text":"所以不公布核索本。好,這個問題呢,我們必須回歸到哪裡呢?去了解憲政制衡的基本原理。四字五八五號,非常清楚的一再重申,權力、分力、制衡。權力不是只有分力,它包含了制衡。"},{"start":2185.413,"end":2200.886,"text":"请问制衡的基本原理是什么五院是一般大的它是制衡的那总统并不是五院的首长令我们非常学界不能接受的是我们当初打立法院职权新实法113年宪判是第九号"},{"start":2203.396,"end":2228.023,"text":"居然憲法法庭用了總統是首長的憲訴法的那一條實際上他不是五院的首長我在監察院服務過監察院彈劾文武百官糾舉的部分一定要有首長五院的院長是不能糾舉的他只能彈劾所以總統在憲政體系上他是一個"},{"start":2228.903,"end":2256.065,"text":"所謂統治權的首長但是他並不是五院的首長那所以呢我們回到這個基本條文上去認定的時候我們會非常清楚發現憲法裡面呢我們原來有一個五十七條然後這個五十七條透過憲法增修條文的第三條的第二項對行政院對立法院負責的部分做了非常明確的規定"},{"start":2257.395,"end":2261.852,"text":"行政院對立法院負責的部分我們原來在1557條裡面主要是一個副議"},{"start":2263.154,"end":2287.629,"text":"那但是呢 富裕失敗應急接受增修憲法的第三條的第二項他除了富裕加了一個不信任投票把原來的三分之二維持原決議改成二分之一其他沒有變動所以要釐清的是憲法增修條文第二條非常清楚告訴我們富裕是什麼富裕是給行政權優勢的機會"},{"start":2290.293,"end":2308.06,"text":"全世界的国会大家都知道一事不在意是基本原理那你凭什么行政权失败了以后立法院多数已经过了不是你政府要的版本不是你那40%要的版本结果你还可以再行使一次所谓的富裕第二次表决"},{"start":2308.7,"end":2322.593,"text":"第二次表決在憲法裡面已經很清楚給了行政院行政權因為附議是要經過總統核可的才能夠行使已經給了行政權非常優惠的第二次表議的空間結果你還失敗了"},{"start":2325.496,"end":2328.721,"text":"站在一個權力分立制衡的原理行政權為什麼可以比立法權大五權是分立制衡的這是一清二楚的結果富裕失敗應急接受的這句話這是應我剛剛說憲法裡面的應非常少"},{"start":2341.919,"end":2364.671,"text":"徵修第三條的第二項Must應急接受你總統合可了失敗了你要接受那接受的態度是什麼是我不接受讓行政院長不要附屬我不公佈然後呢憲法法庭人數不足立法院多數不能接受立法院行使他的同意權的時候然後"},{"start":2365.231,"end":2391.428,"text":"你第三次你憑什麼不再提你要懂得尊重60%的民意當你不再提五人的大法庭憑什麼可以做判決如果這樣的話那這五人將來可以作為中華民國的皇帝所有行政上解決不了的所有在立法院少數的意見我都可以透過五人來解決這不是憲政災難是什麼"},{"start":2392.429,"end":2408.247,"text":"所以我们回到征修宪法的第三条的第二项非常清楚应急接受它的第二项的标题是什么行政院对立法院负责我请问你那个负责是政治责任还是司法责任"},{"start":2409.304,"end":2435.422,"text":"如果是政治责任宪法里面规范的几乎全是政治责任我举一个最简单的逻辑宪法里面摆进去的职位全是政治性同意的职位这非常清楚那既然是政治责任结果你不负负一失败了为什么要用司法来解决那叫政治责任所以归根究底也就是说"},{"start":2436.587,"end":2461.15,"text":"作為一個國家元首一定要面對少數國會少數政府的事實少數國會少數政府要用大智慧來解決這是政治問題不要一天到晚丟到司法而最後的底線不能接受的是無人判決是無效的是自主無效的不會因為時間進化而變成有效"},{"start":2462.119,"end":2486.868,"text":"所以將來你何以拘束各級法院的法官我們釋字的371號法官對於法律有沒有威脅他只能送請大法官而你大法官自己組成不合法法官根據371號他為什麼憑什麼還要送請你大法官去釋憲所以整個的司法已經亂套了整個的分權制衡"},{"start":2487.808,"end":2514.429,"text":"已经面临到史无前例的最后不能容忍的挑战我希望这一次的弹劾案我们回到宪法宪法既然有权当然可以行使宪法里面的弹劾案立法院的部分条文大家仔细看没有违师监察院的部分有违法失职立法院没有那但是过不过这是另外一回事我们要回归"},{"start":2515.51,"end":2536.542,"text":"就算過了送到憲法法庭他可能還是五個人來審這時候怎麼辦好 簡單報告 謝謝好 謝謝蔣慧敏教授精闢的發言接下來我們請林滕耀教授請表達意見 謝謝好 謝謝主席各位理事 各位先生各位關心憲政的朋友們大家早針對這個今天公聽會的主題我寫了一篇"},{"start":2542.428,"end":2561.864,"text":"賴清德違憲亂政應受彈劾的十大惡行在立法院所發的文件稿上請大家參閱並指教我現在就用一口頭來做一些重點的說明賴清德他說我不貪不娶你們為什麼要彈劾我"},{"start":2571.677,"end":2583.025,"text":"我認為這是一個非常無知無恥跟無賴的說法為什麼這樣說呢因為你們大家都知道這個錯誤的政策比貪污還可怕不當的人事安插也比貪污可怕更可怕的是濫用公權力"},{"start":2602.523,"end":2616.511,"text":"乱花人民的血汗纳税钱所以我这里继续在把这一年七个多月以来做了很多的坏事来跟大家做个报告第一个最坏的赖清德是背叛人民违反宪法忠诚义务那么我这里写得很清楚了"},{"start":2633.978,"end":2659.939,"text":"這個賴清德在當選總統以前啊他是信誓旦旦的跟人民表示我當選總統以後啊我要召集朝野協商來推動這個憲改還有這個接受那個館長訪問的時候他還說我要這個推動那個司改要把那個萊嘴法官啊這個恐龍法官啊要修理一下"},{"start":2661.462,"end":2688.579,"text":"但是現在這個恐龍大法官出現了他還去讚美所以這是一個非常嚴重的事情那我們知道賴清德在當總統要當總統的時候必須要根據憲法48條宣誓憲法48條大家好好去看一下非常重要他說這個一臂遵守憲法他這樣講盡忠職務"},{"start":2692.318,"end":2717.921,"text":"如有為誓言要受嚴厲的制裁我們現在今天做這個彈二就是制裁的開端而已第二個惡行我在這裡跟大家報告的就是他不一線公佈法律剛才蔣貴美教授已經提過的引經論點講了一些法條"},{"start":2720.697,"end":2748.934,"text":"那個更重要我在的就是它有四個不一而且不一這個依法行政最重要就是行政院長不依憲法規定向立法院負責這個嚴重違反憲法徵修條文第三條的規定那我剛剛講四個不一哪四個不一呢第一個"},{"start":2750.202,"end":2774.692,"text":"不依法編制預算我們知道預算的編制要根據預算法的然後這個他這個讓立委沒有辦法來審查這個預算因為你不依法編制嘛第二個不一線附屬大家都知道這個附屬是總統的命令要經過行政院長的附屬保證這個總統不會亂發命令"},{"start":2780.643,"end":2809.314,"text":"它不是來對抗立法院的它是我剛剛講過行政院要對立法院負責的這是基本原理唯一一個例外剛才蔣貴美教授講過了就是復議憲法證據上你只能復議其他全部要依法行政而如果復議不成的時候你必須要應急接受所以我這裡就說這個不依憲"},{"start":2812.599,"end":2838.832,"text":"接受立法院赋予过的法案第三个不一第四个不一是不一县开行政院会议大家好好去看看上网看看行政院会议是干什么宪法那么重要的一个行政院会议他把它摆空造成这个厌塞福的退体的现象伤害人民非常的大"},{"start":2840.182,"end":2860.99,"text":"当然都知道这个立法委员已经跟他讲过了那个厌塞福那边很危险要注意他尽量不开行政院会议统合各部会的意见来处理这个厌塞福的这个所以造成溃敌的事件对人民的伤害是非常大所以这是个最大恶极的行为那个"},{"start":2864.229,"end":2885.902,"text":"第三個,我認為他這是很糟糕的一件事情,總統公佈法例,你就公佈法例啊,你怎麼在公佈的文件上寫上,依申請釋憲及暫時處分,你是對誰講話?你對行政院,要行政院做嗎?要考試院做嗎?"},{"start":2887.655,"end":2900.345,"text":"這個很不對的事情啊用政治的信令啊來干預憲法應該公佈法律的一個程序這是不像一個總統的作為啊這是很丟臉的這個總統是讓人家感到很羞恥的一個總統第四個我來講就是他非常糟糕的就是第四個惡行就是對整年這個操弄這個策動對立委的大罷免"},{"start":2918.35,"end":2931.097,"text":"違憲打壓多數人民選出的國會這個大家都很清楚啊所以大罷免讓民眾非常反感所以一直給他打耳光32 33比0所以這是丟臉丟到齊的一個總統"},{"start":2936.465,"end":2965.648,"text":"第五個就是他兼任黨主席總統兼任黨主席伙同行政院監察院民進黨黨團申請釋憲侵蝕國會權力推翻民進黨自己所提過的國會改革國會改革民進黨講了多少次國會要有調查權藐視國會罪都是他們要講的執政以後完全翻臉"},{"start":2967.406,"end":2993.347,"text":"很不要臉的一個民進黨的這個做法那我這裡講到這個攤販立法院的功能就是最可怕我們憲法現在唯一的國會是立法院立法院既然沒有調查權然後官員可以在國會亂講話那我們的人民到哪裡去啊這侮辱我們的人民非常壞的一個事情第六我要提到的就是"},{"start":2998.202,"end":3022.05,"text":"國政選舉法以動員取代這個治理一年七個多月來 賴清德幹了什麼事啊每天就看他拜廟 每天就看他造勢 浮現 弄影片批評政治對手他的作法就是非常重要的國政都沒有做最近爆發的少數化辦公室的事情大家都看到了還有很多經過的弊案"},{"start":3025.592,"end":3032.057,"text":"那個黃國昌去美國以前他說這個軍公案的這兩張A4的紙七個條文你叫我們怎麼審啊這五路台灣人民這麼厲害啊人民的血汗那錢1.25兆你可以用兩張A4的紙來弄嗎第七個就是"},{"start":3046.214,"end":3067.653,"text":"兩度胡亂侵屍不合格的大法官人選敗壞司法的公信力這個大家看清楚我也參加這個公聽會啊第一個提名那個姚立民這非常糟糕啦第二次提名那個檢察官這當然立法院要把關為人民把關把這些人全部否決啊第八個就提到就是"},{"start":3074.795,"end":3089.768,"text":"稱喜萬華裁判的大法官放任憲法法庭沒有正常組成然後就做判決昨天一個叫什麼 深宮的一個他自稱是以前的大法官他就出來罵其實他罵得很對啊其實我很早就講憲法175條最重要我寫了很多文章"},{"start":3102.242,"end":3119.83,"text":"175條是最重要的程序條文給立法院來定了這個東西所以他昨天他也呼應我的講法他認為這個總統這樣亂搞是不對第九個是不讓請病假一年的監察院長辭職坐視監察院職能敗壞這個多壞啊公務人員保障法12條之一規定我來辭職你不批一個月的生效現在去查一下"},{"start":3131.107,"end":3159.743,"text":"如果陳群有提然後你不給他辭職那你就有罪過第十個重大民生全面施政卻下鄉我講難聽的是下海把總統的職位做賤這種搞大發明大浮顯的卸責立法院的做法是讓人民看不起這個總統謝謝大家謝謝林教授寶貴的發言 謝謝接下來我們請第三位賴秉祥律師請發言"},{"start":3161.937,"end":3178.928,"text":"謝謝院長以及各位大家早安大家好那首先很感謝可以受邀到貴院來針對這個總統貪婪案件來進行本輪的意見的發表那觀察立法院提出總統貪婪案件的理由分別在14號的11018101以及1018160其中11018160沒有提到說"},{"start":3186.452,"end":3201.833,"text":"主要理由大概是放任台積電赴美投資出賣台灣關鍵產業鏈還有有關於總行政院長不附屬兩大議題那第一個要問的是說台積電在昨天跟今天都已經很穩定的占上1700多元"},{"start":3203.973,"end":3232.067,"text":"那這還算是一個必須要去攻擊跟作為彈劾的原因嗎這個產業面的問題是有必要去斟酌啦那第二個針對比較憲法上的議題來講的話我們有看到是主要是針對行政院長不附屬的部分那針對這個前言呢我大概分為幾點來做一個論述第一個按照憲法邏輯跟他的脈絡他附屬是一個行政院長的實質性的權利行政院長本來就有權以附屬作為行政權的捍衛"},{"start":3232.927,"end":3251.927,"text":"那這個依據學者陳英前教授的研究當初制憲者在張俊邁先生他在翻譯威馬憲法的時候他就有注意到說辦總統治下總理的附屬權有陷入的困境就是他可能會對抗立法或總統那在當時的背景都被普遍認為說他是要用來對抗當時的總統主要是因為他認為說那時候的"},{"start":3254.469,"end":3271.741,"text":"總理或說那時候的那個首長具有一定程度的民意代表性但觀察我們憲法徵收條文的第二項的規定可以發現說附屬權它其實在修憲之後它並沒有被完全的拿掉它基本上還是具有一定程度的行政院長的這個實際性的附屬權"},{"start":3274.963,"end":3298.505,"text":"所以第一點的結論是,附屬是行政院長,附屬權是行政院長的實質性的權利。第二點是,附屬權本來就不限於對抗總統,況且在修憲之後,依據民主國原則,附屬權當然得以對抗立法權。在前面的專家學者,還有包括林教授的論述,剛剛他好像不太贊同我的見解,不過無所謂,我先把它講完。"},{"start":3299.326,"end":3319.466,"text":"他最主要認為就是說附屬權是用來對抗總統那可是附屬權用來對抗總統的原因是因為他是建立在虛位元首也就是說總統他沒有實行的權利包含這一個我們大家所熟知的英國跟日本的情況但第一個要想像的是說第一個我國憲法上來講總統是一個虛位元首嗎不是總統具有民意正當性"},{"start":3320.467,"end":3340.612,"text":"第二個如果真的要對抗元首的話必須建立在憲法第55條的功能上也就是說行政院長的權力不是當然源自於總統而是部分源自於立法院也就是雙重民意代表性的情況下他附屬才有辦法去對抗元首但在目前我國憲法已經修憲情況下憲法第55條已經被停止適用"},{"start":3341.292,"end":3362.567,"text":"那內閣制最重要的特徵跟權力結構被破壞也就是說現在的行政院長就是內閣首長他的權力不是源自於立法院那在不是源自於立法院的情況下如果回歸民主國原則的話所謂民主國原則就是4至793所提到的憲法以民主國為原則作為基本建制原則也就是人民作為一切國家權力來源"},{"start":3364.208,"end":3386.186,"text":"憲法第一條第二條人民透過參政權行使實際參與國家權利運作提供國家權利運作民主正當性也就是行政院長的權利既然源自於總統而非源自立法院因此在這種情況下來講的話作為行政院長實質權利的附屬權當然可以對抗立法院換句話說過去在行政院長須經立法院多數同意下"},{"start":3386.926,"end":3402.771,"text":"行政院長尚得透過附屬否決立法院的法律案也就是說在憲法第55條還有效力的情況下行政院長都可以透過附屬權否決立法院的法律案更何況在目前憲法第55條已經被憲法中央條文停止適用的情況下"},{"start":3403.591,"end":3425.042,"text":"行政院長以附屬權來否定立法院法律案自屬當然之理所以從第一點跟第二點的論述附屬權是一個實際性的權利第二點是在內閣制的特徵被破壞之下行政院長的附屬權已經具有實際上的權利的情況下行政院長的附屬權本來就可以用來對抗立法院那在這兩個論述的情況下我們可以發現一件事情本件"},{"start":3426.004,"end":3443.031,"text":"有關於立法院委員提案的內容裡面他之所以要提案針對總統去彈劾的部分是因為兩個原因第一個就是產業的部分那這個我剛好論述第二個就是他認為說行政院長的不願意附屬導致立法院的法律沒有被執行"},{"start":3444.335,"end":3465.72,"text":"因此他認為說要去彈劾總統但如果按照這個邏輯跟關鍵性來看的話其實所有一切是源自於行政院長不願附屬那行政院長不願附屬既然是行政院長不願附屬應該是針對行政院長來進行一個政治跟憲法方面的權力互相的制衡那怎麼會跟總統有關係那當然這裡面他們會認為說這背後的指導其實都是總統"},{"start":3466.48,"end":3491.292,"text":"那這個關鍵的幕後支持者都是總統可是問題是憲法的制度設計結構就是如此在整個中華民國憲法裡面並沒有提到總統要親自對這個立法院負責那在整個論述上來講如果單純的是因為不能夠接受總統的施政或不能夠接受總統的政策提出彈劾可以有原因可是問題是在立法院的關係文書裡面很明顯就是針對不附屬的原因"},{"start":3491.872,"end":3512.338,"text":"所以既然是不附屬的部分的話那其實最終還是要回歸到行政權跟立法權的互動這才是整個邏輯上比較正確比較合理的地方那再延續來講觀察本次行政院長不願意附屬的原因最主要還是源自於財化法的論述跟財化法的爭議那財化法的部分"},{"start":3512.978,"end":3526.093,"text":"我們透過這個憲法條文的部分來觀察在剛剛多數的專家裡面有特別提到的是他認為說總統應該公佈法律但總統應該公佈法律的前提的情況是行政院長必須附屬那邏輯上來講"},{"start":3527.955,"end":3547.717,"text":"按照憲法徵用條文的規定來講憲法條文的規定來講的話憲法第70條以及在後續我國司法院4至264391號解釋後特別提到立法院不可以增加預算就是說立法院不可以提出增加預算案件就是說文字是說立法院對於行政院所提預算案不得為增加支出之提議"},{"start":3549.099,"end":3570.349,"text":"所以在這種情況下來講的話行政院長基於他對於憲法的確信也就是憲法條文第70條司法院4至264跟391的論述下來講的話他認為說本件的裁劃法會有所爭議這當然是行政院長他基於他實行的權力可以加以主張跟論述了所以在這種情況下來講的話其實最終立法院"},{"start":3571.409,"end":3598.826,"text":"當然他有權利可以提供彈劾但是他彈劾必須要有正當性也就是說他必須基於他邏輯上跟論述上可以被接受的理由去進行彈劾那第二個是行政院長他確實有權利基於他對於憲法的確信因為按照釋字第185號解釋行政院長本來就必須要去遵守憲法的忠誠義務這是剛剛前面幾位學者跟多數學者都有提到跟可能的前提所以行政院長也有權利進行不附屬那所以在這種情況下來講我們必須要認真回歸到就是說"},{"start":3599.987,"end":3615.038,"text":"所謂的談得到底有沒有意義如同我前面所講的第一個 附屬是一個實際性的權利第二個 行政院長他有權利透過附屬來對抗不限於總統更何況在目前憲法條第五十五條被修憲之後進行使用之後"},{"start":3616.159,"end":3636.944,"text":"內閣制的特徵已經完全被破壞的情況下附屬權本來就可以對抗立法院在基於行政院長認為裁劃法有違反憲法第七十條司法院四至二六四跟三九一號解釋的論述下行政院長本來就可以基於他對憲法忠誠義務對於立法院所提出的法案以不附屬的方式予以制衡那所以重商來講的話"},{"start":3639.401,"end":3661.039,"text":"從以上的脈絡都可以發現跟總統的職權跟總統的法律跟總統的政策決定都沒有明顯的關係所以我認為本件的彈劾案來講的話我認為是在邏輯跟論述上來講是找不到很正當性的依據那如果說假設要回歸整體的有關於立法權跟行政權的互動的話其實在憲法遵守條文裡面已經有明確指出它的方向"},{"start":3661.539,"end":3689.195,"text":"在憲法中條文第三條第二項的規定裡面有提到說它可以三條第二項的第三款規定立法院得經全體委員三分之一以上連署對行政院提出不幸的難不幸的難在提出72小時之後應該有48小時內居民投票表決之所以如果理由論述上來講是要針對行政院長不附屬的話應該是要回歸到憲法中條文的第三條第二項第三款而非總統的彈劾案"},{"start":3690.492,"end":3704.049,"text":"那最後我稍微再利用一點點時間提到的概念就是說這一個除了憲法第七條跟4-264-391號解釋的違憲的確性之外行政院長除了這三個違憲的確性之外其實在那裡面有提到說程序違憲的問題那程序違憲的問題當然"},{"start":3706.872,"end":3722.034,"text":"前面部分學者部分專家不認可這個司法院大法官的見解不過還是要特別提醒在114憲判1裡面有特別提到立法院的正當法律程序也必須與遵守否則的話立法院的正當法律程序在有疑義的情況下來講的話"},{"start":3722.895,"end":3749.772,"text":"恐怕也是會構成違憲的爭議那這個違憲的爭議上來講的話對於行政院是否要遵行跟是否要裁刑相關的立法部分也是會有所依那當然依照我們作為一個法律不要說法律人或是說作為法律從業者的一個確信跟論述來講的話我們認為最終議規還是要回歸現在的司法院由憲法法庭來進行最後的裁決跟議規因為司法權才是整個有關於憲政爭議最終應該要確立跟"},{"start":3751.613,"end":3767.33,"text":"最終由他來定奪的一個權力機關那以上發言謝謝各位好謝謝賴秉祥賴律師的精闢發言謝謝接下來我們請登記第四位我們由玉蘭由理事長請表達表達寶貴意見謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":3770.97,"end":3795.883,"text":"院長 各位委員 各位先進 大家早安我是游玉蘭很榮幸能夠參加歷史上重要的一刻在對總統提出彈劾案的公聽會上發言賴總統到底在人民心中是什麼形象呢我在網路上搜索了他從德意志 清德中 到袁世凱上身都有"},{"start":3797.079,"end":3825.826,"text":"前幾天賴清德在出席AI人才大會時他很接地氣地講了一個冷笑話他說我的名字裡英文名字裡有AI所以你們可以叫我AI總統這個笑話一點都不好笑因為網路上更流行的萊爾發音也有AI其實你的AI就是全民的BI"},{"start":3827.898,"end":3851.342,"text":"德意志可以從他當選總統後還沒有就任就開始顯示因為他一意孤行地想清除掉在野黨拒絕監督制衡為了去年夏天的大霸年整個行政體系幾乎停擺他在上台之後"},{"start":3855.868,"end":3873.501,"text":"就不斷地在攻擊在野黨 打擊在野黨側翼們誣衊國民黨是中共同路人 是匪諜沒想到最後抓到的共諜都在總統府 行政院和他擔任主席的民進黨民進黨二度 三度執政之後 立案頻傳風電 光電 爐渣 他們要賺"},{"start":3885.626,"end":3909.299,"text":"但是也出現了很多勵志的故事新冠疫情時小吃店可以進口快篩四季超市賣雞蛋現在在台南做裝潢的賣茶葉的都可以得標進口槍炮彈藥成為軍火商真是超級勵志"},{"start":3912.134,"end":3918.783,"text":"賴總統在上台後國家機器動得非常兇減掉尤其受到重用"},{"start":3919.616,"end":3931.426,"text":"只不过他们对颜色很敏感什么白的蓝的下手非常重一定要积压竞见对于绿色特别顺眼即使是做了六年的共谍收钱出卖我国的机密情报还是可以交保而且颜色对了交保金额绝对打折打到顾折"},{"start":3943.436,"end":3967.501,"text":"更神奇的是檢調在查罷免民進黨立委的連署案時只不過是偽造文書的輕罪卻可以小案大辦 押人取貢而且鋪天蓋地完全不符合比例原則各縣市的國民黨幾乎都被收遍了即使叫"},{"start":3971.505,"end":3988.574,"text":"蓝白大咖除了天价保释金之外还会在要求佩戴电子脚镣这样子的防逃监控从来不会用在犯罪所得数百亿数十亿的要犯上当然他们可以逃之夭夭"},{"start":3990.933,"end":4007.558,"text":"当然民进党也很会用警察的社会法来处理所谓的假消息假讯息打压言论自由只不过过去五年中有超过七成的假讯息案件被法院裁定是不罚的滥用司法之后人民"},{"start":4012.739,"end":4035.818,"text":"都了解了所以大罷免沒有成功國會還是再也多數所以再出來的建招就是行政沒收司法行政沒收立法對於立法院三讀通過的法案行政院已經八次複議都失敗現在又不執行"},{"start":4046.718,"end":4060.895,"text":"不附属我们还算是依法行政的法治国家吗为了对付立法权连司法院的大法官也粉墨登场配合行政院演出"},{"start":4062.403,"end":4083.781,"text":"他們不惜在只有五個人參加評議三分之二的門檻都沒有達標下宣告限訴法修正案違憲逼得化名升功的前大法官都要投書發出沉痛的呼籲"},{"start":4091.479,"end":4097.678,"text":"他说一以违宪违法再则于不可及岂可再沾乎"},{"start":4098.857,"end":4100.918,"text":"赖清德在竞选时"},{"start":4129.417,"end":4155.877,"text":"不久前赖总统宣布未来八年要投入1.25兆的国防特别预算向美国采购军阀其实我们过去对美国的军购还有七千亿将近七千亿是已经付钱还没有交货的对美国我们无比大方但是对于军警消赖政府可以说是一毛不拔即使自愿意"},{"start":4158.01,"end":4170.407,"text":"軍人加薪和警消退休金所得替代率的調整在總預算之中只不過佔1%仍然是吃定警消 抵死不邊"},{"start":4172.182,"end":4194.509,"text":"立法院通過了停肯年金案他們也藉口要申請釋憲從中作梗對於軍警銷而言他們犧牲健康錯過家庭透支人生退休金原本是屬於延後支付的薪資卻被政府背叛這是"},{"start":4196.593,"end":4223.115,"text":"卸磨杀驴吐死狗喷早在2019年大法官的释字第785号解释就已经认定景潇海巡移民的健康权受到侵害想不到他们居然会成为年改之中被砍杀最严重的一群而现职的工作条件也并没有改善"},{"start":4224.625,"end":4252.849,"text":"這是制度性的霸凌與剝削這不是改革 這是掠奪這更是國安問題當一個國家的守護者發現自己拼命換來的契約保障竟然可以被政府隨意撕毀當年輕人看到前輩們退休後的處境你要他們如何相信政府"},{"start":4254.552,"end":4259.657,"text":"現在傷害已經造成了不但國考報考人數斷崖式的下滑"},{"start":4260.68,"end":4290.192,"text":"景大和景專的招生一年比一年困難過去景消移民可以招收到國內外大學的非常優秀的人才現在的入取率飆升但是更令人擔心的是大法官前年做出景消要求升高違憲之後去年景大的新生有不到147公分的而景專的新生則有151公分"},{"start":4290.925,"end":4306.775,"text":"是想未來在發生隨機殺人案的時候民眾求助的警察身材如此嬌小要如何來保護他們我們的大法官真的是離民意好遠好遠如果制度不改治安會出問題基層比想像的基層的警察比想像的辛苦"},{"start":4320.563,"end":4343.074,"text":"高薇拉的勤務他們的薪資比勞工的時薪還低看不到未來選擇離開的就是李鑫的決定如果政府繼續以行政傲慢來藐視國會羞辱軍警消台灣的治安和安全勢將動搖為什麼孟子黎樓篇裡面有講到"},{"start":4349.198,"end":4371.19,"text":"君之士臣如守卒,則臣士君如復興。君之士臣如犬馬,則臣士君如國人。君之士臣如土界,則臣士君如寇仇。國將衰,先見其師。國將亂,先見其景。國將亡,先見其君。臺灣是法治"},{"start":4376.263,"end":4396.773,"text":"不是人質這一切踐踏法律踐踏軍警消踐踏國會的做法是典型的人質善待軍公教警消罷我支持彈劾賴清德謝謝各位謝謝游議員 游理事長的發言接下來我們請登記第五位黃定義律師請發言"},{"start":4399.506,"end":4424.486,"text":"院長各位委員與會先進就今天的彈劾提案總統的公聽會提出法律意見那對於這一次提案的內容在彈劾的理由裡面很清楚看得到說在法律程序上並不合現行在於法律責任追究的這樣的一個要件那藍白提案這一個明顯提案彈劾總統有捨盡求援的問題"},{"start":4426.127,"end":4445.047,"text":"因為案件的根源在於行政院長不附屬的違憲惡法那如果是行政院長的責任那怎麼會做彈劾總統為什麼叫捨禁求援從憲政程序上面可以看得出來那這樣的一個捨禁求援打假球的情況明顯就是為了轉移不敢倒閣的心虛"},{"start":4445.868,"end":4463.241,"text":"那在憲政層次上面有三大法律謬誤在這一次提案彈劾打假球的情況有三大法律謬誤第一個是憲法徵修條文規定明定的程序那程序上面可以看得出這一次的彈劾案是打假球在憲法徵修條文第三條第二項第三款的規定"},{"start":4464.322,"end":4483.941,"text":"對於隔奎的不信任案它的門檻只要二分之一委員贊同同意行政院長就必須在十日內提出辭職那這個彈劾案的內容看得出來它是針對隔奎的不附屬那不附屬如果要讓隔奎負起政治責任簡單來講就是提起倒戈"},{"start":4485.283,"end":4513.306,"text":"行政院長就會去指那提彈劾呢在我們憲法徵修條文第四條第七項的規定它必須要經過立法委員三分之二以上之決議所以在程序上看得出來是法律實務上不可能法律實務上不可能因為目前藍白只有過半它能提的只有這個倒戈而對於三分之二的席次顯然門檻是不足的那在明顯未達門檻的情況下還要提出這是憲政上的大甲球"},{"start":4513.846,"end":4542.546,"text":"所以只是心虛转移不敢倒戈的这样一个焦点第二个部分在于弹劾追究的是法律责任而蓝白的弹劾理由通篇都是政治口水明显是法律上的渣渣球为什么弹劾是追究法律责任目前在追究政治责任包括倒戈跟罢免是追究政治责任弹劾追究的是法律责任在113年宪法法庭宪判制第九号的揭示"},{"start":4544.147,"end":4570.526,"text":"理由對於公職人員之彈劾細未發動司法懲戒程序以追究公職人員違法失職之法律責任而非追究其政治責任彈劾之目的亦非處理政治問題所以大法官其實超前就打臉了這一篇所謂彈劾的理由用政治口水當彈劾理由藍白要彈劾彈劾理由至少要寫得像法律上面責任的追究或者是寫得像犯罪的起訴書"},{"start":4572.127,"end":4599.417,"text":"才會符合這樣的一個法律要求但是裡面卻寫了一堆什麼大惡霸摧毀台灣民主啦放任台積電赴美投資造謠抹黑等等通篇政治口水如果要講政治口水網路鄉民都會寫得比藍白這份彈劾理由好藍白這份彈劾理由完全不符合憲法法庭113年憲判制第九號所揭示的彈劾要追究的是法律責任荒謬至極法律上打假球"},{"start":4600.177,"end":4629.403,"text":"第三個大家求在什麼在於如果通過彈劾案他要送到的是大法官憲法法庭剛剛所引用的憲法徵修條文第四條第七項明文寫的如果彈劾案經過三分之二立法委員通過他要申請司法院大法官審理但是現階段是藍白全面否定憲法法庭彈劾總統最終由憲法法庭審理這是憲法徵修條文的明文規定所以代表一件事情"},{"start":4630.443,"end":4649.062,"text":"連憲法法庭都被藍白否定了那你現在提彈劾案彈劾案從頭到尾就是打假球所以國會對於不敢倒閣提出各種方式包括三分之二門檻不到憲法法庭最後審理他們也否定的情況之下顯然是打假球的情況"},{"start":4651.043,"end":4671.552,"text":"行政院長不附屬他其實不附屬違憲惡法具有憲法上的正當性全球的民主國家只有台灣的憲法法庭被癱瘓超過了一年有500件的人權救濟案件在那邊躺了一年只因為藍白強推的憲訴法"},{"start":4672.892,"end":4700.655,"text":"兩度杯葛大法官全面杯葛大法官人士讓台灣在全世界上發生極為罕見的憲法法庭癱瘓的憲政危機行政院作為憲政機關在現代民主國家裡面守護民主憲政是所有憲政機關的責任不是只有大法官的責任所以當這一個違憲惡法發生的時候行政院長採取不附屬讓違憲惡法無法生效"},{"start":4701.636,"end":4722.388,"text":"避免傷害的發生這才是守護民主憲政保護人民保護國家非常重要的憲政上的義務剛剛很多人去引用一個化名的大法官我在這邊引用一個具名的大法官許志雄前大法官這不是化名他負起文字的責任文則是有負的他在憲法法庭癱瘓一年"},{"start":4723.709,"end":4747.666,"text":"五百件人權案申請卡關台灣憲政危機的困境與解決之道的文章中具體去講他說拒絕為毀憲亂政的法律案及預算案等背書行政院長不附屬可以阻止公布施行立法院若無法容忍可以倒閣以追究行政院長的政治責任"},{"start":4748.607,"end":4770.044,"text":"自不生行政獨裁的疑慮這個是許志雄前大法官據名去寫不是用化名據名去寫對於現階段違憲惡法行政院長不附屬違憲惡法如果立法院認為行政院長的不附屬本質上他不同意他可以提起的是那他就提到個"},{"start":4771.205,"end":4795.87,"text":"調格照憲法徵修條文的規定行政院長就會離去職提起總統彈劾案三分之二門檻顯然不到藍白過半輕易可以倒戈在這邊採取憲政上的制衡機制卻捨此不為 捨盡求遠這個明顯就是打假球最後我要來談對於現階段立法院提起彈劾案總統要不要到立法院"},{"start":4796.73,"end":4822.972,"text":"我認為總統依據憲法忠誠義務不應該配合打假球法庭113年憲判制第九號裡面清楚地揭示基於民主原則與民意政治與責任政治之要求直接民選之總統與立法院應應對各自的人民負起政治責任彼此間並無憲法上之權力從屬關係"},{"start":4825.755,"end":4840.716,"text":"總統並不對立法院負責立法院亦無權向總統問責之憲法權限所以對於所謂不論是一問一答 質詢或者是對於總統要提國情報告等等相關的內容如何"},{"start":4841.697,"end":4855.526,"text":"這個部分都是總統權利而無從讓立法院假借又彈劾的名義要求總統到立法院接受質詢這個部分跟憲法法庭113年憲判制第九號已經針對國會擴權法案中總統國情報告疾問疾答判決違憲同一法理"},{"start":4862.159,"end":4883.278,"text":"藍白要求總統假借用彈劾的名義到立法院接受問答或質詢這個部分是凸顯違憲後毫無回憶因為已經被判決違憲再引用國際上面的例子美國是總統制國家美國總統到國會發表國情之文也是發表之後即離開議場"},{"start":4884.699,"end":4910.26,"text":"美國的國會議員並沒有質詢權朝野議員美國朝野不論是民主黨或共和黨誰在執政都一樣都會展現民主風度充分尊重總統到國會的儀式那我們最常引用說那台灣可能不是不要用美國的總統制來比喻很常講說雙手掌制那我再講法國雙手掌制法國的雙手掌制總統到法國國會的報告"},{"start":4912.732,"end":4930.54,"text":"國會議員不只沒有質詢權法國國會更在議事規則明定國會議員不得用任何的行動干擾總統來報告及演講這個是明文的規定所以藍白要假借一個彈劾案要求總統到立法院接受質詢"},{"start":4931.761,"end":4952.655,"text":"不只不符合我國憲法我剛剛講的113年憲判制第九號已經清楚的揭示更超越美國跟法國的這樣的一個規範簡直是國際笑話總統對於國會違憲的要求這一個部分沒有配合的義務因為總統必須對憲法忠誠不要配合國會打假球以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":4964.566,"end":4975.275,"text":"院長還有各位立委還有各位在座先進大家好我是李岳陽律師我想我們今天大家會坐在這邊有一個很重要的原因就是因為我們要去彈劾賴清德總統"},{"start":4976.277,"end":5003.761,"text":"那在這個裡面有一個彈劾的原因就是說今天行政院院長他可以不附屬去對抗立法院我們現在重點是說我剛剛聽了很多前面先進大家所說的因為大家講的都是一個面但是並沒有去很深入的去探討這個附屬權它到底它的性質是什麼也就是說今天附屬權我想在座的各位大家都"},{"start":5004.977,"end":5031.218,"text":"大家都可以同意一件事它是一個責任政治跟為了制衡而存在的一個權利但是它是對誰負責還有它是為制衡誰而存在目前我好像沒有聽到所以今天這個公聽會我想是全國人民都是可以看到我覺得不管最後彈劾的結果是什麼至少我們要讓大家知道說今天是誰違反了這個憲政這個是很重要的一個地方"},{"start":5032.259,"end":5057.279,"text":"那今天呢我就會針對三個部分去探討什麼叫做行政院長的附屬權這三個部分呢我想第一個我會先去談到從世界的立憲制度來看附屬權它是從什麼制度而來的第二個我們呢要從憲法的本文去看什麼叫做附屬權它的一個效力還有它的歷史背景第三個就是我們憲法徵修條文之後附屬權它被做了什麼樣的更動"},{"start":5062.544,"end":5078.244,"text":"還有它有沒有保持原來的一個特性那我先講一下我的答案我認為行政院院長是不能動用附屬權去對抗立法院這是我的答案那我先說從立憲制度來講"},{"start":5080.066,"end":5099.182,"text":"我們大家都知道世界上有兩大立憲制度第一個是這是最原始的第一個是英國的內閣制第二個是美國的總統制那附屬權是怎麼來的附屬權就是從內閣制來的內閣制的總理他會有一個附屬權"},{"start":5100.236,"end":5128.279,"text":"那這個是代表什麼事情這是因為內閣制的權力它的行政權來自於哪裡多數民意也就是它來自於國會所以通常來講的話這個內閣制的總理他會有行政權同時他必須要什麼他必須要去對國會去負責所以他有一個附屬的一個權力這個呢我們中華民國的法律既然有了附屬權我們就要去討論"},{"start":5130.134,"end":5139.933,"text":"我記得在我以前學憲法的時候老師會講到一個故事這個故事是在民國37年的時候當時要選總統中華民國要選總統"},{"start":5143.8,"end":5166.518,"text":"大家知道當時第一位的總統蔣中正先生是屬意誰嗎並不是他自己喔他屬意的總統是胡適先生為什麼因為他很清楚的明白知道我們中華民國的憲法是內閣制而不是總統制所以他屬意是胡適先生來當總統之後任命自己當行政院院長"},{"start":5167.731,"end":5184.985,"text":"如果是學過憲法的學者學過憲法的學生應該都聽過這個故事可是後來沒有成行是因為國民黨的中央執行委員不支持胡適先生所以最後還是由蔣中正先生當選了總統這個是我要先說明一個歷史背景"},{"start":5185.726,"end":5211.771,"text":"好 當然我們現在會有人講不對啦 這個故事是以前的故事啦在憲法修正之後呢增修條文之後呢這個行政院院長的同意這個行政院長立法院的同意權已經被拿掉了所以這個時候已經跟以前不一樣了不能做相同的類比因為行政院院長呢他的名義基礎呢已經從立法院被抽走了好 這個部分我們待會會一併說明"},{"start":5215.643,"end":5228.365,"text":"我只是要跟大家講說不是說立法院抽走了行政院長的同意權行政院院長就不用向立法院負責這個是我要先做的一個結論喔那我們從憲法的本文跟體系來看"},{"start":5230.735,"end":5248.525,"text":"憲法的本文附屬權規定在哪裡它是規定在憲法第四章總統章它不是規定在立法院章大家看清楚它是第37條因為為什麼要特別講這個我先念一下本文它的本文是說總統依法公佈法律發佈命令"},{"start":5250.843,"end":5279.81,"text":"須就是一定經行政院院長之附屬或行政院院長及有關部門副長之附屬這代表什麼意思這代表說這個附屬權是跟總統還有立法院院長之間有關而且呢 院長的 抱歉總統的發布命令一定要什麼一定要經過命令跟法律要經過行政院院長的附屬也就是他是被拘束的那我想這個應該不用法盲"},{"start":5281.153,"end":5300.078,"text":"因為我去看了很多網路上很多會去笑人家說你是法盲這不用法盲啊 這文盲要不你不是文盲你就看得出來啊這個顯然就是從體系上跟文藝上就是什麼他是在拘束總統嘛附屬權在拘束總統怎麼會去拘束這個立法院呢當然還有人提出來說"},{"start":5301.658,"end":5312.643,"text":"行政院院長拒絕附屬在歷史上不是第一次喔這次不是第一次喔什麼時候曾經發生過在中華民國憲法修法之前曾經發生過一次什麼時候"},{"start":5314.431,"end":5342.447,"text":"那個時候是李登輝總統要發布人事命令結果呢被郝柏村行政院院長擋住了他拒絕附屬可是各位大家要記得這個有兩個關鍵第一個他拒絕附屬的是行政任命權這是第二個他拒絕附屬的是制衡什麼他是拒絕總統他制衡的是總統不是立法院跟本案根本沒有關係這是本文的部分"},{"start":5345.795,"end":5365.874,"text":"我們再從憲法修憲的過程來看在講憲法修正之前我要先跟各位介紹一下我們中華民國憲法的修正跟一般的修法在不同的在哪裡我們一般的修法是把原本的條文整個刪除之後重新用一個新的條文去增加這個叫做修法"},{"start":5366.394,"end":5395.416,"text":"可是我們中華民國的憲法的修憲呢不是喔它是用凍結的方式它用了一個徵修條文的方式去凍結本文所以說它保留了本文它只是凍結了部分的條文適用好那我們就可以看到啦我們講到這個東西有了這個理解之後我們就可以看到附屬權在修憲中的演變喔由於剛剛有提到那個郝伯春院長呢對於李登輝總統拒絕附屬的這個實際案例之後呢所以在修憲的過程中"},{"start":5396.977,"end":5424.579,"text":"理論會為了避免這種事情再次發生做了什麼事情我們在修正條文的修正條文的第二條的第二項去凍結了原本附屬權的本文凍結了哪個部分是人事命令權就那個部分所以其他的部分有沒有被凍結沒有啊所以我們還是要回到原來去啊我們的是一種內閣制的精神他本來就是要去制衡總統啊對不對"},{"start":5425.72,"end":5452.079,"text":"就是因為當時的總統被制衡了所以他幹了一件事情他把那個部分要制衡自己的部分把它凍結了其他要制衡自己的部分並沒有凍結這個就是什麼我們法律上常講的法驗就是法律的成語叫做什麼民事其一排除其他就是原來的性質要保留效果也要保留然後我們再看一下"},{"start":5453.379,"end":5479.901,"text":"其實在修憲的過程中我們為什麼認為行政院院長對立法院院長仍然要負責他不是單純只是總統的幕僚長因為修憲者做了兩個行為嘛第一個行為是他積極的行為他提出了我們增加了什麼 倒閣案嘛倒閣案是什麼意思倒閣案就是行政院院長如果我們立法院不認為行政院院長是適合的這個是要提出一個倒閣案所以代表什麼"},{"start":5480.541,"end":5497.919,"text":"行政院院長要對立法院負責啊誰說他的任命權被拔掉之後同意權被拔掉之後就可以不用向立法院負責這是荒天下之大謬嘛然後第二個修憲者有意的消極不為他的消極不為在哪裡我們可以看到"},{"start":5499.025,"end":5521.39,"text":"他只去凍結了部分的任命權沒有凍結全部的附屬權喔所以這就是他的消極不為好那在最後我再說一個我們憲法正經用條文有增加了一個附議剛剛很多先進都有提到其實如果附議啊你如果認為你可以不附屬的話我就講一個那你幹嘛定附議那就架空附議了嘛"},{"start":5522.19,"end":5543.031,"text":"對不對以上所以我認為那個行政院院長他是不能夠拒絕對立法院提出法案的附屬謝謝好 謝謝李悅陽律師的寶貴發言接下來最後一位發言完畢之後我們將會休息十分鐘我們請第七位陳怡凱陳教授請發言"},{"start":5545.27,"end":5565.083,"text":"謝謝院長 各位委員 各位先進 大家好我是成功大學法律系副教授陳一凱我們針對這次的彈劾案公聽會呢申請人所提出來的這些法律的疑問我們做一下這個意見法律的意見的提出"},{"start":5566.721,"end":5594.695,"text":"申請人的邏輯是說從退回復議行政院在退回復議案被立法委員維持原案是不是根據徵修條文第三條第二項第二款就必須要有附有接受的義務從而也有附屬的義務這兩個義務是在憲法上其實是有問題的而且在學界也是有爭論的"},{"start":5596.189,"end":5617.788,"text":"那麼關於行政院院長他的復議案被立法委員維持原案條文是直接講是應急接受但是這個意思是不是說行政院院長他就會受到這個決議的拘束呢肯定說認為受到拘束那麼否則的話總統的權限就會"},{"start":5621.18,"end":5638.472,"text":"無窮的大那麼另外一個肯定說下一頁那麼否定說是認為無拘束力這特別是前大法官許仲利大法官跟黃昭元大法官都是採取這種見解他認為說如果說"},{"start":5641.741,"end":5656.478,"text":"有拘束力的話那就變成立法權會獨大甚至造成國會獨裁那無論是正面的見解或是反面的見解都會疑慮是不是國會獨大或是總統獨大但是我們要來從舊憲法第57條"},{"start":5659.842,"end":5672.351,"text":"就憲法第57條的規定是退回復議被立法院維持原案的時候有一個結果這個結果就是行政院要麼是辭職要不然就是接受"},{"start":5673.42,"end":5700.128,"text":"那麼在當時的憲法的學界對這個條文的解釋特別是劉慶瑞學者跟李鴻熙教授都認為說這個就是倒閣的意思就是說沒有所謂的可以接受的也就是說當你的重大的法案退回復翼被國會又維持原案的話這時候就只能辭職而已沒有所謂的接受這條路"},{"start":5701.528,"end":5730.138,"text":"那反對見解是認為說總統有富裕和可權所以總統不是虛偽元首所以不能朝著說這裡就是不信任投票的意思就是所謂的倒閣因此行政院院長在這裡可以選擇要麼就是辭職要不然的話他就可以接受但是無論是這兩方面的見解雙方都是認為這個是一種權力的制衡是立法權跟行政權在這裡的制衡"},{"start":5731.533,"end":5740.226,"text":"然後兩說也都是認為說這裡是跟是不是倒閣有關也就是說一派是認為說我"},{"start":5742.881,"end":5771.432,"text":"我不認為這個是自動的倒閣因此就接受因此接受在這裡並不是說行政院院長有接受的義務特別是這裡他是可以選擇選擇是他要麼總辭要不然就是接受因此在接受這裡並沒有接受的義務因為為什麼呢因為在這裡立法權顯然參照各國的議會的制衡的制度總統制就是退回復一然後"},{"start":5773.671,"end":5787.402,"text":"內閣制就是倒閣跟解散國會這裡面所要求的是行政權跟立法權在法律案必須要合作要達成妥協沒有辦法達成妥協這裡就會形成一個僵局"},{"start":5788.783,"end":5812.754,"text":"這個僵局要怎麼解決呢就是所謂的倒閣跟解散國會的途徑因此在下一頁就是徵秀條文第三條第二項後來就改了它改成說要採取這個把這個辭職把它拿掉了因此就剩下接受但是在這裡並沒有說"},{"start":5816.478,"end":5832.108,"text":"這個接受在這裡就是按照前面的解釋它只是不自動產生倒閣的效果而已它並沒有因為在這裡還是形成一個僵局僵局的解決就規定在徵修條文的同一條的第三款"},{"start":5832.888,"end":5853.12,"text":"就是必須還要在額外的立法院還要在額外的提出不信任投票如果沒有他沒有做這個舉動的話呢這裡還是會形成僵局也就是說呢在這裡最後呢行政院跟立法院對這個法案呢還是要妥協如果不妥協的話呢那當然就還是僵局就形成下去所以並不能從"},{"start":5855.862,"end":5867.408,"text":"從條文的文字應接受這裡所謂的應接受其實就是不自動發生倒閣的作用而已並沒有說行政院要負擔接受的義務再下一頁"},{"start":5875.984,"end":5897.206,"text":"那麼在下一頁我們看一下4至461號也是講在徵修條文第三條第二項第一款他也是認為這是憲法基於民意政治跟責任政治原理的制度性設計所以4至461號解釋大法官已經肯認雖然已經有徵修條文的"},{"start":5897.867,"end":5913.813,"text":"的修改了但是仍然認為這是責任政治跟民意政治的設計4至520號講得更清楚下一頁 在4至520號那一頁憲法第57條它明擺的講是行政跟立法兩權互相制衡的設計"},{"start":5914.853,"end":5935.042,"text":"然後他又繼續說徵修條文第三條第二項第三款徵涉立法院對行政院院長不信任投票制度但是五十七條其他的制衡仍然是保留住了所以大法官在4至520號也是明明白白的講說這個條文雖然是拿掉了"},{"start":5937.563,"end":5961.233,"text":"這個行政院院長的這樣的一個辭職但是在這裡的也是跟前面的舊憲法一樣的是要考慮到他的制衡的原理那制衡的原理就是說行政權跟立法權在這裡必須要對法案有一個協議有一個妥協而不是說立法院可以對於行政院以止棄死說他要照單權說他就只能接受並沒有這個含義"},{"start":5963.936,"end":5991.796,"text":"那接著行政院長有沒有附屬的義務那麼答案也是否定的因為我們已經講過了行政權要跟立法權要互相的要達成協議法案才會過關那這裡就是說在這裡所謂的接受在那個退回復義被維持原案的情況底下那麼行政院長應接受那我們根據剛剛的說明就只是不發生"},{"start":5992.83,"end":6016.965,"text":"倒戈的效果而已並不是說行政院院長要去負有義務要去接受事實上這裡的僵局的局面仍然是在否則就沒有後來的立法院還要再去不信任投票的這樣的一個解決僵局的設計因此在這裡行政院院長他的附屬的意義剛剛李律師也有提到但是在這裡"},{"start":6018.43,"end":6022.237,"text":"我的見解是不一樣的他有舉出內閣制內閣制他認為說附屬是制衡這個元首"},{"start":6027.233,"end":6053.687,"text":"而不是制衡國會 那剛好是相反因為內閣制 尤其是英國是虛位元首虛位元首根本沒有必要去制衡就是說閣傀沒有必要去制衡一個虛位元首但這邊的制衡應該是制衡國會而且我剛剛已經引了4至520號的大法官的見解也是這個見解認為說這個徵稅條文第三條的這個規定就是一個制衡而且就是行政權跟立法權的制衡"},{"start":6055.185,"end":6080.892,"text":"那麼這個附屬又是什麼意思呢根據德國的通說的解釋他是為未來總統如果是公佈法律的時候那他要為這個總統的行為負責是這個意思但是不是為國會負責那麼也就是說行政院在這裡跟國會的意見是不一致的那麼也就是說國會要自己去負擔有沒有合憲的責任不是行政院要去負責"},{"start":6082.438,"end":6094.705,"text":"那麼行政院院長對附屬的有沒有審查權呢德國通說都是採取有審查權他可以對於程序瑕疵內容有違憲都可以來拒絕附屬"},{"start":6096.704,"end":6114.697,"text":"行政院院長的附屬必須先於總統的公佈法律那麼憲法已經規定得很清楚了必須總統公佈法律發布命令必須經過行政院院長附屬所以行政院院長沒有附屬總統當然無從去公佈所以以總統不公佈就來彈劾總統在這裡在邏輯上是說不通的"},{"start":6118.147,"end":6131.989,"text":"德國《基本法》也是同樣的認為行政院長是可以不附屬的特別是總統也一樣對違憲以及程序有瑕疵的立法可以拒絕公佈"},{"start":6133.331,"end":6161.764,"text":"那通說也是如此的一個見解那我們4至613號解釋也是認為說權力的制衡必須是互相的牽制而防止權力的濫用4至632號解釋也認為說監察院的任命必須兩個互相合作所以說合作才是一個制衡才是一個有效制衡所以立法權必須行政權要跟立法院要互相合作那麼通說也是如此那結論就是"},{"start":6163.192,"end":6170.522,"text":"谢谢我就到这边谢谢好谢谢陈一开教授谢谢谢谢各位学者专家各位我们休息十分钟好谢谢"},{"start":6715.779,"end":6743.168,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝我們各位學者專家各位我們審查會的各位委員同仁各位新聞界的好朋友我們現在開始進行審查小組委員的詢問首先我們要請林德福委員詢問劉書斌委員請準備好 謝謝謝謝我們院長 韓院長還有各位學者專家在場的各位媒體朋友各位同仁大家好我想"},{"start":6745.433,"end":6772.874,"text":"這個賴總統在元旦談話時指責在野黨提彈劾案是浪費時間還叫立法院趕快辦正事這番話真的令人感到無比的荒謬一個民主國家的總統應該是憲政秩序的守門人而不是公清變世主親自下場主導整個政治的對立來撕裂整個台灣的社會"},{"start":6773.755,"end":6797.03,"text":"今天不管是立法院還有行政院 院際之間有任何解不開的站在總統的高度你應該就是比較客觀中道的立場來怎麼來解決但是剛好賴總統就是對倒一面的就跟卓院長兩個人互合中華民國憲法第48條"},{"start":6799.433,"end":6810.993,"text":"總統應於就職時就宣布以謹以至誠向全國人民來宣誓一臂遵守憲法盡忠職守來增進整個人民的福利來保衛國家"},{"start":6813.429,"end":6836.262,"text":"絕對不護國民的護托如委誓言願接受整個國家嚴厲之制裁那2024大選結束以後那總統上任以來人民期待的是一位全民的總統我們希望經濟提升兩岸和平從政的人要求要清廉但是我們今天看到的是一位鬥雞的總統"},{"start":6837.703,"end":6854.421,"text":"今天台灣的憲政困局不是一天造成的而是賴總統一步一步策劃的焦土戰略因為總統的權力不斷擴張行政責任卻日益的模糊整個國會監督被執政者視為阻礙"},{"start":6857.11,"end":6878.059,"text":"如果總統以個人的意志就可以削弱整個國會的監督我們是代表全體人民來監督政府放任行政權力來失衡那才是真正民主憲政的危機那如果我們對賴總統整個他在公然毀憲亂政"},{"start":6880.291,"end":6903.12,"text":"踐踏整個法律選擇性不執行的立法院三途通過的法律案還視若無睹那才是對不起民意那才是真正的失職今天的局面是賴清德總統一手促成從上任以來一步步摧毀了這個國家的整個憲政的秩序這場憲政危機不是一天造成的"},{"start":6904.06,"end":6924.947,"text":"回顧過去我們可以看到賴清德總統亂政的五部曲第一部濫用互議權把行政院變成互議院只要是賴總統不喜歡的對立法院三讀通過的整個華麗案反射性的也提互議第二部就是濫用釋憲"},{"start":6927.059,"end":6934.4,"text":"因為護衣輸了不認帳執政黨將政治影響力深進整個憲法法庭媒體報導"},{"start":6935.936,"end":6957.196,"text":"普院曾透過政黨高層與大法官溝通但憲法訴訟法不論是從舊法或新法憲法法庭評議人數不足其公正性受到全民的質疑第三步大法官缺而困境始作俑者就是賴清德總統"},{"start":6958.317,"end":6980.608,"text":"因為賴清德總統故意提名立場偏頗或帶有特定意識形態的大法官甚至於聯民進黨黨團祭出黨祭要求綠委所有的綠營的委員對特定提名的人投下反對票等於打臉賴總統立法院拒絕賴總統所提名大法官的名單"},{"start":6981.932,"end":6995.15,"text":"只是剛好而已啦卻反過來指控立法院癱瘓憲法法庭簡直就是作賊喊捉賊那第四步我想"},{"start":6997.041,"end":7022.003,"text":"發動大罷免身為總統不失團結動員整個社會的仇恨對在野黨發動無差別的全面性的罷免民進黨立法院黨團總召柯建民也說每週三固定向賴總統開會報告大罷免進度賴總統全部都知情結果32比0慘遭民意的火絕第五步"},{"start":7024.705,"end":7044.758,"text":"終極違憲 沒收法律大罷免失敗後對立法院通過的這些法律案直接不公佈 不附屬 不執行從呼籲釋憲大法官人選提名發動大罷免到最後直接拒絕執行法律賴總統上任以來這一年多來花在鬥爭的"},{"start":7046.587,"end":7069.343,"text":"上的心力遠遠超過治國上的一些時間把國家搞得烏煙瘴氣這才叫做不辦正事那第五 賴總統現在最大的謊言就是附屬扭曲城火絕拳甚至以拿美國總統的權力來類比"},{"start":7072.857,"end":7094.909,"text":"這完全是混淆視聽首先1997年修憲時為了讓總統能夠直接任命行政院長特別將互譽門檻從三分之二調降為二分之一當時的修憲原例寫得清清楚楚只要立法院二分之一維持原例行政院就必須接受"},{"start":7095.669,"end":7122.7,"text":"沒有推翻的餘地再來行政院長的戶屬是用來負責不是用來否決在我國憲政體制下戶屬是憲法明定的程序義務戶屬的設計是為了讓行政院長承擔政治責任不是給行政院長用來對抗國會的武器畢竟我們都知道行政院長"},{"start":7123.88,"end":7146.165,"text":"他是總統指定並沒有經過立法院來投票美國總統有伙絕權但中華民國總統沒有兩者在憲政制度上本來就有根本性的差異那總統跟卓院長想要行使口袋伙絕"},{"start":7147.365,"end":7171.633,"text":"這完全背離了中華民國憲法把自己當成了太上環行政院長以不附屬為由將對總統的制衡扭曲硬拗為對抗國會的工具總統更公然違憲拒絕公佈惡意的扭曲整個憲法的意旨徹底違背中華民國憲法第37條對總統權力制衡的憲政"},{"start":7176.295,"end":7198.916,"text":"以及第72條總統公佈法律之憲法義務創下中華民國行憲以來最壞的惡例為什麼要彈劾賴清德因為他才是這一切違憲行為的幕後主導者就在去年12月12日賴清德總統"},{"start":7200.273,"end":7217.573,"text":"主動召集民進黨立委在黨部開了一場便當會賴總統拍板定案主導了採不戶屬或戶屬或不執行的違憲策略甚至於說要由行政院行政部門來做出"},{"start":7218.354,"end":7238.435,"text":"最終的決斷表面上是卓榮泰院長拒絕簽字實際上是賴總統在幕後下指導旗卓院長送出不附屬的簽署文後賴總統馬上用總統的便簽來發案給立法院把責任全部推給卓院長"},{"start":7241.949,"end":7265.323,"text":"這叫做什麼 這叫做借刀殺人因為賴總統躲在行政院長背後把卓院長當成黨鍵牌自己裝作無辜修憲後行政院長實質上是總統的木鳥掌如果不是賴總統授意卓院長敢不簽字嗎如今總統帶頭違法受害的是全體國民在財政上因為總統拒絕公佈"},{"start":7269.96,"end":7294.492,"text":"整個財化法行政院不願從偏預算中央政府都在苛刻應屬於地方的預算台北市長蔣萬安最近也呼籲希望行政院長依法編列預算為什麼地方首長要喊賴總統因為賴總統把錢苛刻在中央口袋裡寧願讓地方建設停擺也要掌握整個財政的大權誰聽話我賴總統"},{"start":7298.453,"end":7321.598,"text":"這個卓院長卓榮泰才會補助預算所以說賴總統上任以後整個他的高度介入行政立法的攻防的執行模式對於行政院施政方向重大的策略屢屢以總統身份直接來定調弱化了整個行政院長責任的政治形成超級總統制"},{"start":7323.698,"end":7340.864,"text":"賴總統與卓院長聯手推翻立法院三讀通過的法律這才是破壞權力的分立所以說我們今天為什麼會來提整個彈劾案我相信啦 零零總總太多了啦可以說一羅匡那其實這樣是剛好而已 以上謝謝"},{"start":7348.291,"end":7362.874,"text":"主席各位學者專家委員及在場的媒體朋友大家好在我國總統不只是國家元首在民國86年修憲後行政院長改由總統任命不再需要立法院同意"},{"start":7363.655,"end":7381.108,"text":"就已經使得行政院長只是總統的執行長加上總統兼任執政黨的主席實質上總統就是政府首長了所以總統的所思所為決定著台灣內部的安定跟和諧也影響著台灣的發展佈局在113年1月13號"},{"start":7386.394,"end":7387.074,"text":"我們再看看當總統是如何背離憲法守門人的這個角色"},{"start":7417.174,"end":7443.744,"text":"在113年的本屆第一会期当中在野党为了强化国会监督的力道进行了各项的修法改革面临了立法上面挫败的民进党那总统和柯建民他并没有选择和在野党沟通来对话而是选择把在野党妖魔化抹黑又抹红"},{"start":7445.104,"end":7451.75,"text":"並且在114年的2月新會期開始的時候動員了行政輿論還有檢調全面的去對抗國會而進行了726跟823的大罷免行動所謂的團結十獎其實就是要分裂社會那總統還公開鼓吹要打掉異議的雜誌"},{"start":7470.725,"end":7494.307,"text":"那大罷免潮呢不僅讓台灣陷入了政治動盪也是社會不安定的源頭7.26 8.23全民用選票表達了對賴的不滿對民主政治的堅持的必要32比0就是大罷免大失敗多數民眾透過罷免案的投票打臉了賴政府"},{"start":7495.39,"end":7522.184,"text":"那總統823當天說到尊重人民的意志肯定民主的力量政府會檢討而且要做內閣調整這樣的話呢言猶在耳但是江山易改本性難移啊朝野對抗持續著我們再看看後來有經歷了八次的復議的失敗案例最近的一次是在114年的12月"},{"start":7522.964,"end":7532.181,"text":"行政院就立法院修訂通過的財政收支劃分法提出了複議這是第八次遭到立法院否決的法律案"},{"start":7534.022,"end":7553.042,"text":"依照憲法徵修條文的第三條跟憲法第57條的議旨,復議失敗後,行政院應該立即接受尊重國會的決議。總統附有公佈法律的憲法義務,這個就是憲法責任政治跟權力分立的核心設計。"},{"start":7555.068,"end":7580.235,"text":"總統公佈法律需經過行政院長附屬CountersightCountersight附屬的核心精神就是誰附屬誰就是要負政治責任這樣的明顯的道理是18世紀以來民主責任政治的核心然而政府卻自行認定法律違憲拒絕完成附屬跟公佈程序使得行政權公然偏離國會多數意志"},{"start":7581.315,"end":7599.863,"text":"賴清德跟卓榮泰行政團隊利用不附屬權的荒謬手段公然踐踏民主程序掀起憲政危機立法院依法通過行政財政收支劃分法的修正案旨在消除中央與地方的財源不均的現象這是民進黨在在野時期的主張但賴清德總統跟卓榮泰"},{"start":7608.056,"end":7629.246,"text":"卻無視民意跟國會的決議強行阻擋了法案的公佈彰顯了他們獨裁且專斷的治理態度這不只是政治操作的法律問題而是權力濫用的赤裸裸的表現藉由行政權力來壓制立法權破壞三權分立的憲政基石讓民主政治 民主程序淪為擺設"},{"start":7631.147,"end":7645.217,"text":"行政院左翁派執意將拒絕將地方財政納入執行的範圍無視憲法保障地方自治而是加強了中央的集權展現了對民主制度的侵滅更構成了對司法權的僭越"},{"start":7646.778,"end":7664.796,"text":"若這個案例被合理化未來總統皆可以任意拒絕公佈不符合執政黨利益的這樣的法律形同實質廢除立法院並走向行政獨裁我們再看看總統如何不因應長期的大法官的缺額造成憲法的審查機制癱瘓"},{"start":7666.477,"end":7672.458,"text":"大法官有15人他要滿邊運作的話就要確保憲法能夠解釋能夠正常的進行跟有他的節制性到113年底開始有近7名的大法官選額的缺額僅剩8位大法官他仍可以開庭做收案 分案跟行政性跟程序性的事項處理但不能進行實質實體的評論也不能做成違憲的宣告"},{"start":7694.947,"end":7716.722,"text":"現行憲法法庭卻未在未達新法或舊法門檻至少要六位的情況呢仍然自行作成判決宣告憲法訴訟法違憲已經明確的違法了製造了憲政的危機這最主要有三個理由第一個是明確的違反憲法訴訟法未達法定構成的條件"},{"start":7717.583,"end":7731.18,"text":"第二個 他程序違法因為只有足夠的人數有高度共識才能夠形成這個做出的裁判來能夠被社會來接受第三個 他構成憲法結構性的一個風險"},{"start":7733.892,"end":7754.883,"text":"這樣子大家可以想像嗎如果有少數的大法官五位就在否決國會多數民意的這種荒蕩性那司法院本來是一個憲法守門人現在變成什麼變成權力的行使者了變成政治的否決者了這又變成全球的民主笑柄了"},{"start":7757.949,"end":7771.581,"text":"面對的是憲法法院人數不足的問題有沒有解方呢 有喔在4至632號解釋當中包括了總統在內的憲政機關他們對於憲法都有忠誠義務"},{"start":7773.422,"end":7802.297,"text":"面對大法官的缺額具提名權的總統就應該積極的與在野黨協商進行補提名大法官的程序排除目前的非常態狀態才是正確的解方但是但是我們看到的是那總統卻選擇消極的放任甚至縱容司法機關在違反自身程序下運作形成求援兼裁判的荒謬現象嚴重損害了憲政的正當性"},{"start":7804.245,"end":7823.65,"text":"結論呢 就是知道賴清德總統明知有憲政風險性 但是仍執意為之是一個得不配位的總統啊我們看到他上任以來 剛愎自用 慌常的妄行導致國會的失能 司法失序仍不進行修補 不節制反而獨攬了權力來架空國會"},{"start":7830.471,"end":7839.243,"text":"僭越司法這一杯政策的選擇而是嚴重的破壞台灣民主的憲政危機這次的彈劾"},{"start":7840.766,"end":7862.356,"text":"並不是為了政黨的勝負而是為了讓憲政責任被歷史記錄注意到是歷史記錄即使是必須三分之二的立法院的多數才能通過那在野黨只有二分之一但是我們必須讓這個憲政的責任被歷史記錄權力也制衡也必須落實"},{"start":7863.911,"end":7877.737,"text":"任何違憲亂政的行為必須要付出代價終將要接受歷史的審判這是非常嚴厲的一個控訴大家想想昨天有一個新聞是"},{"start":7879.853,"end":7894.492,"text":"韓國的特檢向法院請求將內亂守摩的起訴的尹錫悅前總統處以死刑注意到這個就在發生在一年前的事情"},{"start":7896.189,"end":7920.763,"text":"韓國的例子應見不遠我們在野黨就是提出這樣的一個忠告請賴總統好好的去思考應該要守憲守法而且請總統要慎行不要重蹈覆轍不然的話真的是非常後果的嚴重尹錫悅的案例就在我們的身旁就在眼前 謝謝"},{"start":7923.45,"end":7935.559,"text":"謝謝劉書斌委員發言接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言徐橋新聞請準備好 主席在場出席的學者專家代表本會的同仁媒體的記者女士先生"},{"start":7938.092,"end":7963.312,"text":"有關於本次的公聽會我想以立法院公聽會的設計不只是聽取社會各界專業人士的意見更重要的身為立法委員我們應該將這樣的意見也透過我們的闡述讓一般的民眾一般的選民可以了解因此立法委員在公聽會的發言就附有必須讓國民了解"},{"start":7963.832,"end":7966.454,"text":"目前立法院進行的事務是什麼樣的內容以便於國民他們可以"},{"start":7971.01,"end":7997.7,"text":"据此来行使他们的国民主权好因此在这里原例我提供了简报总统克尊宪法国会应首奋计国众无理弹劾做法自相矛盾提到弹劾权我们来看一下在台湾这是有史以来宪政史来第一次但是在其他国家我们都可以看到临近的像美国在美国的历史上多次提出对总统的弹劾"},{"start":7998.393,"end":8023.841,"text":"那美国总统的弹劾怎么进行呢美国是一个总统制的国家总统有非常强大的权力然而相对应的他的权力分立他的对应原则是国会也有强大的力量国会由众议院二分之一过半提出后只要得到参议院三分之二的席次同意就可以弹劾总统这彰显出美国国会"},{"start":8024.381,"end":8041.78,"text":"它相較於其他國家的國會比如說像台灣的國會就有不一樣的權威性它是兩院制比如說美國的國會的聽證權跟台灣目前立法院執權刑事法當中包括我們的調查 聽證 公聽會的舉行大不相同"},{"start":8043.82,"end":8067.123,"text":"一年多前本院在修改立法院職權行使法硬生生的要加入了聽證的制度想要仿效美國的做法然而這被大法官解釋為違憲因為在我國的五權分立體制之下立法院不管是在聽證調查等等都不能逾越侵犯到監察院的權利好說到美國之後我們來看看韓國"},{"start":8069.085,"end":8083.625,"text":"韓國它是由國會過半數提出三分之二同意後才能以起憲法法庭來裁決所以我們剛剛看到包括劉委員提到前韓國的總統尹錫悅他是被彈劾"},{"start":8084.298,"end":8109.335,"text":"也是經過憲法法庭的審理這一點好像跟台灣的制度上是類似的那麼至於我國彈劾總統的制度的演變在修憲前跟修憲後我們可以看得到在修憲前請看下一頁修憲前我們是由監察院提出在憲法本文監察院形同三個國會之一除了國民大會"},{"start":8110.115,"end":8129.959,"text":"以及立法院之外監察院是由各縣市議會所間接選舉產生的另外一個國會也是說由國會發動後由另一個國會國民大會來決議不過在歷史上不曾發生過所以台灣中華民國體制在修憲前跟美國似乎"},{"start":8130.419,"end":8148.333,"text":"是由两个国会分别来行使那他必须要有四分之一的建设委员提议后向国民大会提出至于国民大会怎么处理在宪法上并没有明确的详细的规范但是在修宪后我们很清楚的看到了修宪后没有国民大会"},{"start":8149.233,"end":8167.3,"text":"監察院也被去國會機關化因此只有立法院是代表國會他可以由二分之一提議三分之二上提出由憲法法庭三分之二的裁決所以這點看起來跟韓國的制度類似但是我們要問一句那三分之二的門檻是76席以目前聯手提出的國民國眾兩黨未達76席那他要如何來"},{"start":8175.263,"end":8202.269,"text":"争取向宪法法庭来提出呢那至于一般民众看下一页罢免跟弹劾事实上是不同的罢免是收回来的权利因此我们看到了在我们目前的政协条文规定当中要全体立法委员四分之之提议要全体立法委员三分之二的提议后才能送请全国选举人要以过半数的方式才能罢免总统"},{"start":8202.912,"end":8222.253,"text":"可見呢這是罷免總統的程序跟一般我們所理解的民意代表縣市首長似乎有一點類似只是多了罷免案的提出必須透過立法院那至於彈劾案呢根據政協法人的規定一樣是二分之一提議三分之二提出然後呢就可以再進行"},{"start":8225.114,"end":8251.487,"text":"對不起 沒有錯就是二分之一提議好罷免是四分之一彈劾是二分之一因此還要送到憲法法庭去裁決所以本次彈劾案是先後線以來的第一次總統彈劾案那我們來看一下罷免跟彈劾有什麼差別呢罷免它是政治投票做政治上由選民來做決定彈劾它有準司法的審理必須有違法違憲的具體事實提出機關雖然都是立法院但是罷免要有全體公民來公決"},{"start":8253.233,"end":8259.315,"text":"彈劾案由憲法法庭來做最後的審理決定那麼結果都是解職或是去刑事獲免權好"},{"start":8259.827,"end":8281.909,"text":"那我們來看在這次彈劾案的提出原起是什麼原起是國眾兩黨認為行政院長不附屬違憲剛剛在包括林委員 劉委員的發言當中都很清楚他們認為行政院長既然已請了復议 復议不通過根據憲法正用條文即應接受怎麼可以不附屬呢然而我們也聽到剛剛的"},{"start":8284.091,"end":8313.311,"text":"这个代表的学者专家包括陈一凯教授也提到了并没有所谓的行政院长服役接受就包括不能行使不附属权因此在这个学理上我想国众两党既然认为行政院长他是不附属是违宪的那根据宪法的一个安排他就应该向大法官宪法法庭提出释宪的申请认定行政院长不附属是我违宪"},{"start":8314.011,"end":8329.109,"text":"或者他直接追究行政院长的政治责任透过我们宪法中修条文的第四条的机制呢要求行政院长必须下台来负责但是我们看到国众两党他居然"},{"start":8330.27,"end":8354.314,"text":"認為行政院長不附屬違憲既不向憲法法庭提出釋憲的申請也不行使憲法正確條文當中有關於行政院向立法院負責的機制要求行政院長負起其政治責任也沒有這樣做結果他只發表了一個譴責行政院長的聲明不去追究葛奎的責任"},{"start":8354.844,"end":8378.855,"text":"不去行使不信任也不申請釋憲卻發表了一個無關痛癢的譴責文國會決議在我們的憲政體制裡面這樣的決議難道能對行政院如果你認定他違憲能產生任何效力嗎好了結果我們看到的因民眾黨提出的彈劾的暗由他說什麼他說居然是說"},{"start":8382.776,"end":8388.682,"text":"總統違反第72條的規定請問一下72條是寫什麼給大家很快的看一遍72條說"},{"start":8391.82,"end":8413.976,"text":"立法院法律案通過後移送總統及行政院總統應於收到後10日內公佈之好 同時給總統跟行政院為什麼要給行政院行政院長附屬後總統才能公佈啊這像是7條的規定啊所以總統如果附屬了就會在10日內公佈目前有發生這樣的狀況嗎 沒有"},{"start":8415.177,"end":8434.151,"text":"那沒有發生後面的狀況呢但書的規定但總統得依本憲法第57條之規定辦理50條規定什麼當法律案立法院通過後已給總統跟行政院行政院可以提依57條提請復議啊行政院提請復議了總統有沒有已給立法院復印呢有啊"},{"start":8434.952,"end":8449.321,"text":"那請問財化法既然總統在沒有隔奎附屬前他不能在10日內公佈而且當行政院長提起復议後他也依憲法57條的規定已請立法院來復议了那請問"},{"start":8451.055,"end":8479.42,"text":"总统是违反了哪一个宪法的规定所以我们看了再看我们最后总统克尊宪法维护宪政体制那你总统没有违反72条你弹劾的正当性在哪里反过来我们看到了是国众联手瘫痪谴责宪法法庭在此同时国众两党还联手去谴责宪判114年宪判一字号认为大法官违宪天哪"},{"start":8480.407,"end":8509.799,"text":"依照憲法的規定司法院是最高司法機關憲法的權威解釋由憲法法庭審理後做成之那立法院難道是立法院獨大可以對抗嗎結果他提案了譴責的憲法法庭然後他還要去跟憲法法庭要告狀要說總統應該被彈劾所以回到最後的結論我們看到這一次國眾兩黨提出的總統彈劾案有三個讓我們看到"},{"start":8510.478,"end":8513.653,"text":"最後三項的"},{"start":8515.331,"end":8542.322,"text":"謬誤第一他彈劾不等於罷免要76席所以他認為他可以提出彈劾是一廂情願第二要違法失職總統沒有違反你們說的憲法第72條是與法無拒最後國眾癱瘓同時譴責憲法法庭不接受憲法法庭審理現在又提出彈劾案要求憲法法庭來受理這是志向矛盾於是我們認為本次的彈劾案三大誤謬不值一提"},{"start":8543.237,"end":8548.815,"text":"好 谢谢钟嘉斌委员发言接下来我们请徐巧欣委员发言陈培宇委员请准备"},{"start":8551.587,"end":8573.829,"text":"主席各位學者專家各位立委同仁還有媒體朋友們以及收看直播的全體國人同胞大家好今天呢是第一場的對總統彈劾的公聽會那我想呢我們應該要進入到最本質就是彈劾的要件是什麼"},{"start":8575.575,"end":8600.637,"text":"很多人今天講到了這個有沒有違法或是違憲的問題可是今天彈劾他並不只是並不只限於違法或是違憲他對於一個政治人物他如果有沒有觸犯法律但是發生比如違反憲法上的義務"},{"start":8601.858,"end":8621.773,"text":"破壞憲政的秩序權力的分立有重大的濫權跟失職或者是背離了他作為一個總統應該要遵守的憲政界限這都不是有一條刑法寫在那裡但是卻可能能夠構成彈劾的一個重大理由"},{"start":8623.069,"end":8635.847,"text":"好 那雖然呢我舉另外一個例子給大家聽雖然市長並不是總統他的彈劾的方式不一樣但是我們對彈劾的精神基本是一致的"},{"start":8637.439,"end":8656.705,"text":"舉一個最好的例子賴清德總統自己本身就被彈劾過他當初被彈劾的時候是作為台南市的市長一百零四年合字第十號在二零一五年的時候台南市長任內兩百多天在市議會開會時間拒不列席議會曾經被彈劾"},{"start":8662.298,"end":8684.033,"text":"他也可以說請問我是違了哪一條法我有刑事責任嗎我違憲了嗎但是不好意思你做出這樣子的在作為一個市長不進到議會裡面接受議員的質詢長達200多天這就是一個彈劾的理由"},{"start":8685.02,"end":8713.296,"text":"在對於市長的彈劾的一個途徑裡面也確實他呢有被判定彈劾所以今天碰到的問題只是對於總統要更謹慎所以我們的程序更加嚴謹然後呢門檻也更高但不代表今天彈劾的理由有任何的不正當這是我第一個要表達的"},{"start":8714.793,"end":8743.575,"text":"第二件事情今天很多包含我們學者專家立法委員都談到了各國和各國對於不附屬的憲政意涵可是我們也要注意到中華民國是一個五權分立的國家我們的憲法在經過多次的增修條文的改變之後你難以與世界上另外一個國家做完全百分之百的對比"},{"start":8744.969,"end":8763.687,"text":"所以拿美國出來提的拿韓國出來提的我姑且先不論是屬於總統制、內閣制或是法國的半首長制跟台灣也不一樣我們要看這部憲法它具體而言在台灣它代表什麼樣的一個意義"},{"start":8764.761,"end":8781.281,"text":"而附屬權他是要來制衡哪一位是制衡立法院嗎還是制衡總統呢剛剛有幾位學者專家針對這個部分講得非常清楚我就不再做贅述了"},{"start":8783.37,"end":8808.621,"text":"總統府的秘書長潘孟安先生曾經在國會備詢的時候非常清楚的表明立法院通過的法律他們是一定得行政院是一定得附屬的否則會打臉賴清德賴總統這是總統府的秘書長潘孟安先生在我們他在備詢的時候親口所說的"},{"start":8809.477,"end":8832.973,"text":"所以總統府自己就非常清楚的認知到附屬權今天要制衡的對象其實是總統而不是立法院那既然你都知道了那為什麼後續還要利用附屬權來去做政治上面的攻防來去做對立法院的處處的執軸"},{"start":8835.661,"end":8861.374,"text":"這個就是我們認為非常不合理違反憲政的分立的地方當然也就是彈劾的理由還有很多其他的例子我舉一個我個人特別在意的例子在軍人待遇條例的三讀法案修正之後我想問問大家剛才好多的學者們都說了"},{"start":8862.219,"end":8882.078,"text":"如果今天按照我們國家的憲政體制立法院三讀通過的法律行政院認為有摯愛難行之處的時候他要提出什麼剛才大家都說了叫做復議我請問大家回去看看軍人待遇條例當初行政院有提出復議嗎有嗎"},{"start":8884.773,"end":8910.119,"text":"沒有反過來說我們是不是可以解讀為行政院並不認為軍人待遇條例的修正案有至愛難行之處那為什麼總統在簽了總統令之後其實附屬也都附屬了行政院卻拒不執行也並無編列任何的預算"},{"start":8911.738,"end":8934.984,"text":"然後呢 就這樣子 送進了一份違法 不合法的預算進來 要求立法院要審查而賴清德賴總統 竟然作為幫兇要求立法院審查這一份 並不合法的預算今天吧 還昨天 還去計算了天數說 哎呀 已經幾百多天了"},{"start":8936.092,"end":8948.246,"text":"作為一個三軍統帥當你的總統令已經蓋在上面讓所有我們16萬的國軍弟兄都知道三獨通過的法律要上路了"},{"start":8949.266,"end":8973.017,"text":"我們這一年當中的官校史上第一次招滿超收這對國家來說本來是大好事一件在少子女化的現代社會當中我們都擔心沒有人要從軍兩岸關係如此的惡化兵凶戰危賴清德總統說中共2027年要準備武統台灣"},{"start":8974.994,"end":8998.68,"text":"那請問如果我沒有人來做軍人的話那誰來保家衛國可是這樣子一份帶著好意的能夠提高待遇以至於優秀的人才被留下來不適合的人才可以太除的法案卻在行政院以及總統做一個三軍統帥者"},{"start":9001.431,"end":9018.72,"text":"的一個干涉之下去不編列預算 不執行相關法律我想在權力分立的任何一個國家當中立法單位只有僅僅一個要求最基本的要求是要求行政機關應該要依法行政"},{"start":9019.778,"end":9044.325,"text":"如果今天行政機關連依法行政都做不到而在我國的制度裡面行政院長又是由總統來提名的總統竟然為虎作娼那他當然符合了我們今天要彈劾他的要件這就是一個重大的圍屍以及他破壞了權力的分離"},{"start":9045.526,"end":9061.813,"text":"他或許是間接的破壞了權力的分立但是在我國的政治體制裡面作為一個總統破壞憲政秩序破壞權力分立最簡單的方式是透過他所任命的行政院長來做這件事情"},{"start":9062.904,"end":9089.841,"text":"所以哪怕是總統站出來批評卓榮泰院長告訴他 你不應該這麼做當初沒有提出復議代表你沒有認為有摯愛男性之處三讀通過的法律應該要依法行政哪怕是賴清德總統他表個態今天都不至於影響這麼大可是賴總統有嗎他對於這些日子以來行政院"},{"start":9091.095,"end":9114.03,"text":"不依法行政的種種惡質的行為 他有過批評嗎不僅沒有 他還站在卓榮泰院長的這一邊啊所以今天 為什麼我們彈劾的對象叫做賴清德總統按照我國的體制 今天就算是倒閣了卓榮泰院長下台了 還有千千萬萬個卓榮泰"},{"start":9116.721,"end":9130.996,"text":"還有千千萬萬個九龍泰啊說不定更糟糕啊說不定對於權力的分立對於憲法的體制破壞得更嚴重啊所以因為行政院長是由總統來任命的所以我們今天彈劾的對象"},{"start":9132.498,"end":9157.498,"text":"我們今天針對所謂的重大的圍屍破壞權力分立的真正的始作俑者就是賴清德賴總統所以我們才要把他視為彈劾的對象而且並有充足的理由從不合法的送進預算再到鼓勵不附屬打臉自己都是我們要彈劾他的具體理由謝謝"},{"start":9158.379,"end":9169.814,"text":"好 謝謝許巧欣委員的發言接下來我們要請陳培宇委員發言莊瑞雄委員請準備好 謝謝主席那今天感謝所有在場的與會專家"},{"start":9170.834,"end":9192.129,"text":"也感謝各位出席的媒體朋友還有收看直播的朋友當然要感謝願意今天出席發言的立法院委員但我要說今天所有藍白委員的指控真是荒謬的鬧劇現場直播再度給大家看這一今天的公聽會非常的荒謬而且我本人感到非常的憤怒非常的遺憾"},{"start":9193.01,"end":9199.976,"text":"提案要延會到1月底的是你藍白立委而在立法院不願意實質認真開會的也是你們藍白立法委員你們還記得嗎總預算到目前為止都還沒有辦法交付委員會討論沒有辦法實質審查但你們的藍白地方首長"},{"start":9211.727,"end":9216.768,"text":"卻開始在地方集結開始在對中央喊話在對立法院喊話我就說這些藍白立委你們應該要喊話的對象就是這些在立法院上班不認真工作不認真審查預算甚至可以看到去年亂提預算審查法案的藍白立委你們才是這一切必須要負責任的人這一場政治鬧劇"},{"start":9235.692,"end":9258.435,"text":"最早最早剛開始的起點就是國會擴權法案而這一切就是因為藍白想要把賴總統叫到立法院來羞辱所以在第十一屆的剛開始大家還記得嗎他們為了羞辱賴總統把他請到立法院來問話就硬推國會擴權法案始作俑者就坐在今天的現場"},{"start":9259.716,"end":9283.497,"text":"而這個擴權法案後來被憲法法庭狠狠地打臉相關的判決請大家記得一 總統沒有到立法院做國情報告的憲法義務二 立法院也沒有要求總統來立法院報告的憲法權利三 國會擴權法案的修正內容對於總統不具有憲法上的拘束力"},{"start":9284.679,"end":9304.898,"text":"簡單的說 直白的說藍白就是想叫總統來羞辱就是想要羞辱總統在憲法上就是不行被憲法法庭打臉之後藍白立委不甘心 不甘願他們繼續想要惡推因此提出了今天的彈劾案但我們要說彈劾案是為了追究"},{"start":9306.479,"end":9321.245,"text":"總統的違法或者是嚴重失職的責任但我們看不出來截至目前為止賴總統有任何違法失職的事項而如果是提出罷免案也就是要追究政治責任那又是另當一回事剛剛鍾嘉賓委員已經說了"},{"start":9322.325,"end":9334.513,"text":"彈劾案跟罷免案截然的不同其中的政治責任跟相關的表決票數也不一樣不是你們藍白說了算如果大家看清楚背後的目的就是為了羞辱賴總統把賴總統叫到立法院來問話讓你們問好問滿所以才會推出今天的彈劾案"},{"start":9340.237,"end":9360.783,"text":"所有的彈劾案就是為了羞辱賴總統我要一再一再的強調也請國人看清楚現在的立法院就是在陪藍白立委作秀的垃圾時間今天禮拜三明天禮拜四下個禮拜三的禮拜四總共用掉了四天的委員會變成了選院委員會陪你們作秀的這樣一場秀"},{"start":9362.103,"end":9388.895,"text":"到底要全國人民付出多少代價因此我要再次提醒藍白立院職權行使法第43條第二項規定全院委員會審查的時候得由立法院邀請被彈劾人列席說明法律的規定是得邀請並沒有說被邀請的人必須出席所以我要再次強調賴清德總統沒有任何法律上的義務必須要出席彈劾說明會"},{"start":9390.015,"end":9418.401,"text":"更不要說這一場說明會是一場作秀的政治鬧劇結果藍白搞了這個總統可以不來的彈劾案卻不敢提出罷免案審查的時程還要排到今年的四月跟五月更不要說如果彈劾案要通過的立法委員人數是三分之二而且如果真的通過之後還要送去那個每天被你們罵的違憲的憲法法庭請問你們難道不是自打嘴巴嗎"},{"start":9419.941,"end":9433.479,"text":"說穿了整個總統彈劾案就是藍白立法院黨團不顧民生不顧預算不顧憲政秩序只為了政治操作欺騙台灣人民所以這是實實在在的政治鬧劇"},{"start":9434.701,"end":9451.63,"text":"接下來我說藍白的政治算計除了在總統談額上表現一覽無遺之外他們到底在立法院還做了什麼事情要拜託國人一起看清楚第一個是總預算最該做的事情是總預算不審拖到1月中還不願意交付委員會審查"},{"start":9453.031,"end":9479.584,"text":"現在人民所喊的TPAS治水防洪預算公共托育甚至災害預備金有的藍白立委還搞不清楚災害預備金是新型計劃的預算如果沒有辦法讓總預算現在通過審查未來是沒有辦法動之的而這一切都是藍白造的孽都被藍白卡住未來地方政府有任何預算動之的需求就請找藍白立委黨團算帳"},{"start":9480.965,"end":9503.862,"text":"更不要說行政院版本的裁劃法到目前為止一樣被卡在程序委員會當中請聽聽看你們的陳宇珍委員柯志恩委員蘇清泉委員都曾經公開的說過院版的裁劃法比起國民黨團藍白版本更公平更可以照顧到南部的鄉親還有離島的鄉親但你們依然不管不理最後我還要說"},{"start":9505.163,"end":9534.262,"text":"民進黨黨團負責任的提出非常多的國安修法其中有一條包含所有的民意代表到中國敵國去必須要相關的報備我們提案超過800次到現在依然被卡在程序委員會此外有關國防戰力的強化防衛任性及不對稱戰力計劃採購特別條例也繼續被擋現在今天早上看到更荒謬的是民眾黨的黃國昌甚至說他要提出自己的條例版本"},{"start":9534.742,"end":9556.077,"text":"我就問 請問你有什麼樣的資格請問你是軍事專家嗎還是你去美國去了一趟回來你認為你就可以代表台灣人提出相關的特別條例非常的荒謬跟預算或者是我就直接點破到時候會不會是你只送你自己的版本透過程序委員會進到相關委員會然後繼續卡行政院的版本"},{"start":9556.657,"end":9583.376,"text":"這就是現在的藍白在立法院做的荒謬鬧劇天天做政治算計天天只在乎自己的利益完全不管台灣人民的生死我要再說一次程序委員會只審格式不審內容只是櫃台掛號還不到看診階段如果要審實質內容請交付到各個專業的委員會送到院會討論跟相關審查但藍白就只願意在程序委員會擋住繼續欺騙台灣人民"},{"start":9586.138,"end":9609.053,"text":"我要強調過去民進黨國會多數的時候也從來沒有像藍白的立法委員現在在程序委員會這麼惡意檔案這就是所謂多數暴力的藍白政黨立法院多數當家是你藍白再說一次當家不做事只鬧事就是你們藍白政黨我也要再幫大家回憶一下"},{"start":9611.094,"end":9632.802,"text":"2024年的國會擴權法案當時修法的時候藍白黨團竟然還提出要求一般老百姓交出資料不交就罰錢甚至還要求一般老百姓來立法院開聽證會不來也罰錢當然後續就被判違憲我不知道今天在場的藍白立法委員還記不記得自己曾經有過這個荒謬的提案"},{"start":9633.742,"end":9642.347,"text":"會不會當時匆匆忙忙送出委員會 你們根本就不記得自己提了什麼 修了什麼你們不願意面對自己過去造下的錯誤 現在繼續犯錯然後呢 繼續顫抖跟想起 接下來惡修憲法訴訟法 癱瘓憲法法庭"},{"start":9649.972,"end":9677.682,"text":"我要說全世界所有民主國家當中台灣是唯一一個憲法法庭被停擺的國家立法權侵害司法權莫此為勝更不要說修法過程當中充滿瑕疵所以被宣判違憲從總預算到相關違憲的法案這就是藍白立委這兩年來在立法院所做的事情接下來我要說那藍白除了做違憲的事情當然不會放過的是自肥"},{"start":9679.071,"end":9699.87,"text":"從民眾黨的壯世代委員開始到陳玉珍的助理廢除罪話再到陳金輝當了一個立委不到一個月就提出代理孕母法案這就是說是藍白立委在立法院的樣態先強害台灣人民的利益再繼續在立法院自肥更多相關的案例我講出來都替你們覺得感到羞恥跟丟臉"},{"start":9701.371,"end":9727.751,"text":"而我就要問接下來剩下這兩個禮拜請問你們要繼續讓什麼樣的議案跟法案通過在立法院三讀作為對人民交代的成績單呢我完全沒有辦法想像這一連串赤裸裸的利用職權把公共資源當成你們藍白自家財產變成一種新的政治常態台灣人民真的可以接受嗎這真的是所謂你們口中的台灣多數民意嗎"},{"start":9728.852,"end":9754.337,"text":"最後我要再次呼籲國民黨跟民眾黨不要再罔顧民眾的意念不要再忽視國家利益繼續唱喝中共這也是我們看到你們在立法院的樣態回顧從這一屆立法委員到目前為止傅昆奇 翁小林等人屢次在會期中前往中國傅昆奇第一次更是帶了多名的委員會的召委前去中國拜碼頭我們不知道你們見了誰我們不知道你們談了什麼我們不知道你們達成了什麼協議"},{"start":9758.698,"end":9784.96,"text":"但是人民可以看見的是你們每次從中國回來台灣立法院就只有更亂比亂還要更亂就是你們所造成的而這一切我要再次提醒立法院當家做主的是你國民黨連院長都是國民黨的提名人選所以真正當家鬧事真正正事不做搞得全國人民雞飛狗跳的也就是你們藍白政黨因此我要再次呼籲"},{"start":9786.401,"end":9813.951,"text":"請你們不要再唱喝中共請你們不要在立法院繼續迴憲亂政請你們主席請尊重我最後一個發言謝謝最後我要說如果在台灣我們希望國家可以強制久安需要的是人民團結立法院所有黨團也可以團結理性和平的討論讓所有相關的實質法案還有預算實質推進而不是配合藍白一直在演政治鬧劇"},{"start":9817.334,"end":9829.807,"text":"謝謝 謝謝陳培委員發言下面登記第六位邱政軍委員所有的發言已書面提出我們會列入紀錄刊登公報在接下來最後一位我們發言的委員莊瑞雄委員請發言"},{"start":9831.175,"end":9858.349,"text":"好 謝謝院長我敬愛的各位先進還有各位公正人士還有國人同胞今天也很榮幸可以來最後一個發言那我想我今天非常仔細的聆聽各位學者專家還有各位先進的一些發言但總是有一個感想這一次提出的一個彈劾案裡面各位看到這兩份立法院的一個提案裡面其實應該可以看得很清楚"},{"start":9859.284,"end":9866.949,"text":"這是去年的一個提案的時候就倉促的一個提案然後今天藉著這個公聽會再來補一些理由我為什麼這樣講呢你去看在我們院總第14號這個委員提案11018160號的案由裡面這個很有趣的地方就是這個彈劾這個傅根齊跟韓國昌等委員國民黨跟台灣民眾黨"},{"start":9886.821,"end":9906.414,"text":"当初提出这样的一个弹劾案里面理由写到了放任台积电赴美投资然后出卖台湾关键产业然后出卖中华民国的独裁总统这个看起来就很有趣了台积电现在外资持有的比例72.47就差不多1879万张政府真正拥有的股权是6.38%外资是72%"},{"start":9917.629,"end":9936.691,"text":"關股是6.38%那我們政府當然有政策政府身為台積電的最大的單一的一個股東它法律上當然也有可以不能讓台積電自己去做任何的一個決定尤其是對外投資如果影響到國家安全或者對國家經濟發展不利或違反國際條約違反智慧財產權"},{"start":9939.074,"end":9953.411,"text":"核心技术国家就不让你出去但是各位把它想想看去年提案到现在那似乎蓝白就讲说你怎么可以出卖放任台积电赋美投资去年这个案子提出的时候台积电是1400块"},{"start":9955.153,"end":9958.595,"text":"今天1月13號來講的話是超過1700塊好像是在講說你這個政府怎麼可以這麼糟糕讓台積電到赴美去投資以後讓股價從1400漲到1700這個讓人覺得錯亂至於總統到底是不是一個出賣中華民國的獨裁總統我看從剛剛學者專家裡面也提到的用詞裡面也都很強烈丟臉無恥什麼獨裁全部都講出來了"},{"start":9984.889,"end":9987.171,"text":"賴總統上來以後,到這段時間裡面,我相信沒有人會覺得他是一個獨裁的總統。他讓我們整個民主可以繼續大鳴大放,讓台灣的民主可以大放異彩,沒有任何言論自由會受到任何的剝奪。"},{"start":10007.331,"end":10028.483,"text":"尤其是第二份關鍵文書裡面提到非常憂心說現在的狀況很擔心這個場景就有點像是110年前的中國把他類別成袁世凱說會逐步架空國會解散政黨 迫害異己甚至於中日會廢除選舉 沒收民權這個其實講的都是中國國民黨"},{"start":10032.435,"end":10053.702,"text":"所以也就是說這兩份關係的文件,你說要當成一個歷史記錄,這個當初寫出這兩份就非常的一個丟臉。國家亂不亂?國家當然亂。國家這個亂的原因根源在什麼地方?就是立法院的素質太低了。"},{"start":10055.581,"end":10064.129,"text":"難怪立法院一直擴權是的 剛剛林教授指教的確實啊 民進黨曾經要提出國會改革我們要提出國會改革後來現在在這一屆的國會提出改革法案藍白通過的法案裡面改革了嗎所以讓國家的憲政更大亂"},{"start":10075.926,"end":10087.252,"text":"當一個國會改革的法案是連到最後立法院都可以當檢察官可以當法官可以把憲法法庭的判決提出來說把它做一個決議說要無效這個叫做荒謬這個叫做荒謬所以以今天大家在提的部分在野黨今天"},{"start":10096.685,"end":10109.31,"text":"講的是憲政就問責但其實這是一場政治的一個表演這不是在追究法律責任這個是在製造一個政治鬥爭的一個舞台那我必須要講的就是說我們今天在整個"},{"start":10116.449,"end":10128.618,"text":"決議文裡面去提到說潘孟安秘書長到立法院接受詢答的時候曾經有去講過的說如果不附屬的話是打臉總統那個是在司法法制委員會接受我質詢這個擷取這一段全部都錯了"},{"start":10133.069,"end":10152.214,"text":"我去年在司法法治委員會質詢的時候當初的問法是說立法院已經通過了憲法訴訟法的一個法案門檻把你給提高了那你到最後如果說立法院通過的法令"},{"start":10154.335,"end":10168.009,"text":"行政院長附屬或者總統公佈你要走哪兩條路總統到底你會不會公佈他說總統當然要公佈那行政院長會不會附屬他說不附屬就會打臉總統我真正的核心是跟他講說其實都不對哪怕是立法院通過以後啊限訴法以後啊"},{"start":10174.665,"end":10193.785,"text":"憲法法庭還是可以把憲訴法他認為是違憲的地方還是可以在一個個案裡面把它給宣告違憲我的危言大義是在這個地方那我們今天走的是一個彈劾程序各位你可以具體的指出賴清德總統哪一個地方違法跟違憲嗎到底誰講的算"},{"start":10197.827,"end":10223.625,"text":"誰講的算我為什麼說今天這個不是一個憲政的一個究責這個是一個政治的一個表演這個是一場鬥爭憲法本身不會講話憲法的條文他哪會講話到底有沒有違憲就是要一個憲法法庭以前叫做大法官會議那好啦那憲法法庭做出來說到底法令有沒有違背法令有沒有違背憲法你說憲法法庭講的不算"},{"start":10225.185,"end":10245.864,"text":"就是先把整個憲法法庭把它給摧毀掉以後讓你行政部門針對三權分立或者五權分立立法院所送出的法案行政部門認為自然難情甚至有沒有違憲他要送到憲法法庭去的時候他把那一個台子把它給拆掉了產生今天台灣這樣的一個亂"},{"start":10247.324,"end":10257.91,"text":"所以這個叫做正門不走要走後門我今天早上聽了很多大家一直在罵其實罵的都是在罵卓榮泰如果說你今天要罵卓榮泰那反而說罵卓榮泰你怎麼不附屬所以我彈劾你總統這好奇怪你說卓榮泰違法亂紀甚至於他違憲要把卓榮泰解決掉沒有那麼困難"},{"start":10274.366,"end":10280.489,"text":"要把卓榮泰院長解決掉 你就走真正的憲政程序你就很簡單 你就提一個不信任案今天各位所提到的是痛罵卓榮泰 然後彈劾賴清德總統這邏輯不通啊 邏輯不通啊你說總統高高在上沒有人拿他有辦法嗎 有 還是有辦法"},{"start":10297.111,"end":10319.773,"text":"還是有辦法今天走的你是明明知道是不可行你搭一個舞台搞這樣的一個政治鬥爭然後你究責的對象其實是行政院院長那你應該走的是提的一個不信任案那你真正要究責憲政究責總統那你可以走罷免案你可以走罷免案那各位可能會覺得說你怎麼你這個行政院長你怎麼可以不附屬"},{"start":10321.368,"end":10331.728,"text":"學者專家只要出現以後就代表又會開花了大家講的又完全又不一樣了真正的附屬的一個制度其實也是在制衡總統"},{"start":10333.444,"end":10337.925,"text":"一個法令倒不是你總統講的算倒不是總統講的算沒有經過整個行政院長按照整個憲政的一個規定說行政院長來附屬以後總統確實也不能去公佈這樣的一個法令那這個結到底要怎麼結到底要怎麼結我相信這個才是重點這個才是重點那今天這個彈劾的一個對象裡面看得出來很明顯就是一個"},{"start":10363.427,"end":10366.31,"text":"移花接木啊賴清德總統也許他也問啊我總統是何罪之有啊那真正該究責的國會改革以後改革完的一個法令這幾年這一兩年的立法院的亂象大家看到了"},{"start":10380.78,"end":10398.285,"text":"這個就是倉促修法透過多數不去做討論產生的嚴正的一個後遺症憲法法庭113年憲判第九號其實也明白指出總統跟立法院之間並不存在直接的政治責任關係藍白也許覺得說我們加起來比你還要多你總統的選票裡面你占的還不到沒有過半"},{"start":10407.97,"end":10410.412,"text":"所以在立法院你最大的民意基礎可是把它想想看如果以台灣個人來看的話真正當選的人還是總統最大的民意基礎還是總統立法院要監督行政權應該是要走憲法的正門不要鑽這種政治的一個後門"},{"start":10428.983,"end":10445.53,"text":"宪判制第113宪判制第9号里面总统跟立法院之间不存在直接的一个政治责任关系总统其实真的不是对立法院负责立法院也没有直接向总统问责的一个宪法的一个权限以上请各位来做一个参考谢谢"},{"start":10446.172,"end":10469.99,"text":"好 谢谢专门选委员的发言跟各位学者专家列席的所有好朋友报告我们审查小组的委员的询问已经发言完毕我们现在进行最后一项程序请学者专家针对刚才我们审查小组的委员的询问内容提出综合答复那每一位学者专家的时间为三分钟我们再请我们掌柜美教授请发言"},{"start":10471.223,"end":10488.93,"text":"好 謝謝主席時間非常緊迫來立法院呢事實上我考試院監察院全部服務過來立法院是我人生很大的一個情感上的衝擊因為我從頭到尾聽到一堆藍白但是沒有人真正對於憲政上"},{"start":10489.75,"end":10506.984,"text":"所謂的社會正義來辯駁這是令我非常難過的一點那至於剛才莊委員裡面他有些觀點我覺得反而還有討論空間他提到說為什麼不用倒閣剛才前面委員也有提到只有笨蛋才會去倒閣為什麼"},{"start":10508.605,"end":10522.492,"text":"為什麼要用倒閣的方式因為你已經附議了我們剛才已經講過回到遵修條文第三條的第二項裡面那甚至回到憲法72條72條應於十日之內公佈它只有一種例外就是回到憲法57條"},{"start":10524.193,"end":10548.612,"text":"那可是57條被增修第三條第二項凍結掉了那所以增修第三條的第二項它就是復議嘛那復議失敗應急接受那後面引發出來一連串的不附屬不公佈甚至送司法院用司法解決政治問題從頭到尾就是謬誤我沒有任何情緒發言"},{"start":10550.29,"end":10577.151,"text":"这么清楚的事实为什么会一直刺激反对党说你为什么不倒戈你为什么不倒戈反对党没有必要越除代跑那是总统的责任因为人是他任命的他的人不遵守宪法当然他自己解决啊所以我们为什么会对于权力分立制衡的这种基本落实法治国的宪法正义这么的不了解这是国会殿堂"},{"start":10578.502,"end":10606.205,"text":"所以我會認為大家要摸著良心我以前在東海服務過我們東海開校這個校務會議的時候大家是摸著聖經發誓的每個人對於國家是要有忠誠義務的那所以呢我覺得治本之道回到憲法裡面去論究其他所謂的政治動作用政治解決法律責任用法律解決但是彈劾總統"},{"start":10608.325,"end":10635.548,"text":"我们刚刚讲得非常清楚你回到宪法增修条文的第二项他就是复议失败要接受这个人是谁是总统核可的复议他的复议失败了他不公布所以回到72条的宪法应于10日之内公布10日之内请问总统做了什么我们在监察院的时候当时总统是台南县长他被弹劾过"},{"start":10636.414,"end":10665.118,"text":"因為藐視地方制度法48、49條但是沒有用所謂的沒有用就是說一個國家元首必須對法律負責對法治負責行政權永遠不可能取代立法權或司法權行政權永遠未接比法律低那回到司法正義請大家深思謝謝謝謝蔣貴美教授的發言接下來我們請林滕耀教授請發言謝謝主席剛才"},{"start":10665.919,"end":10670.202,"text":"聽到民進黨立委跟他所推薦的律師學者的講話有點像是法律的呆頭鵝讓我感到非常難過因為他們對於我剛剛講過的賴清德這一年七個多月來所做的十大惡行都視而無睹而且根本"},{"start":10692.793,"end":10719.483,"text":"沒有了解這些人憲法都沒有讀通沒有讀透憲法的基本精神在哪裡第一個主權在民主權不是在賴清德身上第二個責任政治政治是管理眾人的事賴清德有沒有管理眾人的事有沒有實質的行政權他把那個行政院長當做什麼稻草人"},{"start":10721.022,"end":10743.049,"text":"現在民進黨叫我們去倒那個稻草人後面那個實質掌控行政權的是誰啊就是賴清德嘛你們憲法沒讀通嗎我現在告訴你們憲法第一個我剛剛講過主權在民第二個多數主政第三個一線統治"},{"start":10745.11,"end":10769.363,"text":"第四個依法行政第五個依法審判第六個司法獨立最最要緊的就是責任政治今天賴清德掌控的實質行政權掌控的國家的軍隊特務警察所有權力都拿走了還使用所有老百姓的那個資源"},{"start":10771.11,"end":10792.561,"text":"講到預算好好去看那個預算法54條嘛現在為什麼南白不要給他審查因為你違法PN類預算嘛你送來的預算案完全違法嘛所以我怎麼審查你欺負老百姓啊"},{"start":10794.465,"end":10818.883,"text":"一兆两千亿的刚刚我讲过了一兆两千亿的经购条例预算两张A4纸赖清德跟你们这些立委有没有对得起你们自己的良心你们如何欺压台湾人民浪费人民的血汗纳税钱你们不会感到羞愧吗我的发言时间你不要讲"},{"start":10820.563,"end":10822.63,"text":"這裡不是要讓你罵的欸我在批評你"},{"start":10829.507,"end":10847.599,"text":"主權當然在民啊但主權不在藍白啊搞清楚我尊重你你愛罵誰就罵誰你搞錯了吧現在麻煩一下我們尊重林教授最後發言的十秒鐘的時間您還有十秒鐘請發言不用客氣還有十秒鐘請"},{"start":10851.862,"end":10880.35,"text":"還有幾秒是吧10秒 不好意思因為您剛剛打岔子我現在跟你講喔你們後面那兩個民進黨的立委都不見了你們的敬業態度你們對不起台灣人民謝謝時間已到謝謝李教授因為現在我們公聽會的溫度開始升高了然後我提醒大家喝口咖啡 靜下心 好不好那"},{"start":10882.017,"end":10902.749,"text":"後續的發言要去拜託學者專家還是要稍微注意一下好不好要用字遣詞那在座的公聽會委員也拜託大家我們尊重好不容易請來的學者專家院長我們很尊重我對學者專家都很尊重好不好我是針對內習化林教授我還是很尊重的啦"},{"start":10903.973,"end":10919.145,"text":"那林教授 特別跟你報告 專業選委員很尊重你他很尊重你 他已經講他很尊重好 我們現在繼續 時間繼續那麻煩一下 謝謝大家我們第三位請賴秉祥律師 請發言"},{"start":10921.576,"end":10938.556,"text":"感謝院長的主持會議那立法院真的是一個修行的好地方那我二要的就剛剛的論述幾點發言那第一個發言就是說附屬制度其實從剛剛的與會專家學的論點都可以發現它是源自於內閣制"},{"start":10939.617,"end":10959.497,"text":"那源自於內閣制情況下我國的行政院的首長也就是行政院長已經不是內閣制的特徵了所以附屬制度的情況下應該早就不限於對抗元首不限於對抗總統更何況剛剛專家學者所提出來的論理裡面所謂的元首跟總統基本上都是虛位的那在我國"},{"start":10961.038,"end":10979.573,"text":"應該不會有人認為我國的總統是一個虛位的元首從剛剛很多的指控跟論述裡面也都認為說基本上認為賴清德總統的許多作為是他們不滿意的地方那從他們不滿意的地方的邏輯論述來講也就是他們其實認為總統是一個實質性的具有實質權利的國家憲政機關所以這個邏輯上來講應該不在"},{"start":10984.278,"end":10994.03,"text":"原用傳統所謂附屬對抗元首的這個概念所以第一個附屬權對抗總統這個論述在剛與會學者裡面已經不存在了"},{"start":10994.81,"end":11020.451,"text":"第二個剛剛有提到一點很重要的憲法上的爭點就是說針對行政院復議之後如果復議失敗是不是要再只能夠接受那這個在113年憲判9就是我們第一號有關於這個朝野之間權力分立的第一號的憲法在113年之後的第一號權力分立的這個憲法法令判決裡面有提到"},{"start":11022.439,"end":11031.106,"text":"復議之後其實行政院長還是具有申請釋憲的權利這也被當時沒有異議的大法官跟憲法法庭"},{"start":11032.168,"end":11051.944,"text":"所肯認所以在這個情況下我必須要再度強調111年憲判9裡面其實已經講得非常清楚了就是對於復議之後憲法法庭還是可以去審查行政院立法院等憲政機關所申請的憲法法庭的這個解釋並且做出相關的判決"},{"start":11052.785,"end":11082.047,"text":"那所以這個我想在場專家學者可能有所誤會那這一點要再度強調就是復議之後行政院等憲政機關還是可以申請憲法解釋這個113憲判9已經有做出很明確的論述跟說明那第三個剛剛是有一位委員跟一位專家學者提到說他們認為說本件的關鍵在於總統沒有制止行政院長的作文那如果按照這樣講的話總統不制止行政院長也就代表第一個總統不是虛偽元首"},{"start":11082.227,"end":11109.918,"text":"第二個他們也認為關鍵不在於附屬與否如果按照這個脈絡來講的話既然關鍵不在於附屬與否有時候總統不制止行政院長的話那應該就要回歸到財化法本身是否有違憲的情況所以按照這個剛剛論述整理起來可以發現就是附屬與否根本就是一個錯誤跟虛假的命題而在於說總統跟行政院長對於財化法態度才是關鍵謝謝各位好 謝謝賴秉強 賴律師您寶貴發言接下來我們請游玉蘭游教授請"},{"start":11113.398,"end":11135.257,"text":"謝謝各位我今天的發言跟其他的專家學者不一樣他們都是法律專業的不管是擔任律師或大學教授我是一個警察的女兒也是讀警官學校然後又當警察老師所以這輩子我最了解的就是我的這個族群軍公教警校"},{"start":11139.878,"end":11164.715,"text":"那因為四十年前我在美國讀書的時候其實我也接受了美國的這樣子的一個民主法制的一個傳統的一個價值我認為三權分立立法司法行政當然在台灣我們還加上監察跟考試這樣子要三足鼎立或五足鼎立的這樣才能夠達到一個國家的一個平衡穩定發展"},{"start":11171.159,"end":11192.21,"text":"我絕對沒有辦法想像到在賴清德總統上台之後我在剛剛的我的報告之中已經爐裂了許許多多不管是他堅持得意志一定想方設法要做無差別式的罷免在野的立委"},{"start":11193.26,"end":11221.722,"text":"或者是他動用了司法進行藍綠不對等的調查偵查其實這都是我過去的信仰之中所不能夠接受的四十年前當我在美國學成的時候我其實是有機會也拿到有工作可以留在美國當美國人的"},{"start":11222.401,"end":11247.461,"text":"但是我毅然決然回到台灣是我信任我的國家會帶著我走向光明的未來我也相信我回到警察大學教書之後我有一份可以讓我尊嚴終老的一個保障但是絕對沒有想到在民進黨"},{"start":11249.42,"end":11256.975,"text":"蔡英文再度執政之後運用所謂的年改然後做出法律溯及既往的這樣子的砍殺"},{"start":11260.572,"end":11279.71,"text":"那我作為一個知識份子我覺得自己的選擇我願意接受我也尊重當年在立法院裡面一票一票每一個立法委員所提出來的年改的法律可是當今天再也超過了"},{"start":11284.127,"end":11306.017,"text":"我們現在執政黨然後也是透過一票一票的去修正了不管是警察人員人事條例第35條或者是停侃年金案你們為什麼不能夠依法行政謝謝好 謝謝游一蘭教授的發言接下來我們請黃定穎黃律師請發言"},{"start":11310.464,"end":11338.303,"text":"主席各位委員各位與會先進那首先先回應剛剛陳培宇委員有講到說立法院我看他很痛心說到現在為止總預算國防特別條例正式沒有做那在有點像是浪費時間在這一個彈劾案那這個彈劾案為什麼認為說我剛提出說他是打假球是因為在憲法徵修條文的規定他是雙三分之二高門檻第一個三分之二在國會三分之二顯然這個喜事是不足的"},{"start":11338.763,"end":11364.221,"text":"第二個部分在憲法法庭一樣三分之二而現階段的憲法法庭是被藍白所認為全面否定的所以在這樣的一個情形之下法律實務上彈劾總統不可能那這樣當然就是打假球那再來是也回應剛剛延續剛剛莊瑞雄委員講到說這個案子其實嚴格講起來看他們的彈劾的文件裡面都在提的是行政院長不附屬"},{"start":11364.881,"end":11387.748,"text":"那行政院長不附屬在憲法上面的對應對於行政院長的究責剛剛我引用許志雄大法官的文章特別提到說如果國會是認為行政院長不附屬這件事情不附屬違憲惡法如果國會是不同意的他是有權利去提起這個不信任案那不信任案既然國會目前藍白是過半"},{"start":11388.308,"end":11407.61,"text":"他當然是有這個權利輕易就可以提過但是他捨盡求遠他捨盡求遠故意去提一個彈劾案這顯然是牛頭不對馬嘴這個部分我要再強調一遍是說剛剛我聽到與會也有說藍白有六成民意如果是有六成民意"},{"start":11408.311,"end":11436.402,"text":"不用擔心倒閣之後該選不會贏所以嚴格講起來對於認為行政院長不附屬違憲惡法這件事情把它上升到一個憲法上實務法律上不可能的雙三分之二門檻去打假球這是完全用來轉移不敢倒閣的心虛不敢面對真實民意因為如果真的有代表六成的民意很簡單提起不信任案就不要害怕民意的檢驗謝謝"},{"start":11438.482,"end":11466.288,"text":"謝謝黃定宇黃律師林教授身體不舒服是嗎還好啦請多保重身體請保重身體我們接下來請第六位李岳陽李律師請所長表達一下謝謝我最後只有一個論點要講其實在全世界的民主思潮中"},{"start":11467.168,"end":11481.027,"text":"一定是我們要去抑制這個行政權因為一開始呢我們一定是行政權是最大的但是後來為什麼需要去抑制這個行政權因為我們會認為說最後國家會變成一個所謂的警察國家"},{"start":11482.898,"end":11506.545,"text":"那所以在二次世界大戰之後也好在整個的民主思潮中都也好一定是立法院他會去制衡行政權行政權要對立法院去負責這是我們目前所有的民主國家會去走的一個現象那我要說的是其實剛剛我已經講過"},{"start":11509.082,"end":11535.35,"text":"附屬權的性質當然有其他的專家學者有不同的看法跟意見但是我已經從歷史上還有從我們修憲的過程中全部去說明了我想要說的是憲法是全體人民意志的表現我們應該回歸到最原始的憲法去去尊重民意這個才是我們應該要做的事情謝謝"},{"start":11537.915,"end":11561.155,"text":"好 謝謝李月洋 李所長 謝謝接下來我們最後一位 我們請陳怡凱 陳教授請發言謝謝院長 各位委員 在座的來賓 還有先進那我綜合如下 就是說有申請者提出一個指責說總統他自己審查法案有沒有違憲 然後就不公佈"},{"start":11561.775,"end":11589.338,"text":"然後行政院院長也自己審查法案有沒有違憲他把它致命為大法官這樣的指責並不是正確的因為各個憲法機關他都必須要去合乎憲法然後他也必須在行使之前要先去判斷到底有沒有合憲比如說立法院職權行使法第十一條在三讀的時候也必須除了裡面說除了"},{"start":11590.495,"end":11617.236,"text":"有違憲之外只能做文字上的修正也就是說立法委員自己也必須要先判斷目前的這個法案到底有沒有違憲所以我們不能因此就說立法委員是以致居於大法官然後自己去宣告這個法條有沒有違憲所以說這個是各個憲法機關都必須做的而不是說總統或是行政院長就不能如此做還有一點 這裡指責說"},{"start":11620.218,"end":11642.127,"text":"要根據這個民主原則要國會主權並沒有所謂的國會主權這樣子的而是說目前就是說每一個立法權這麼重要的一個是由數個國家機關合作來完成的那4-632號解釋理由書內對監察院"},{"start":11646.055,"end":11673.073,"text":"院長的這個人事權呢也是說是由總統要跟立法院合作來完成的那麼4至632號在這裡的合作呢就把它解釋成為這是一個人事上的一個制衡所以說呢兩個不同的機關合作完成一件事情這個在憲法上呢就是一個制衡那因此呢立法上呢也必須是行政權跟立法權呢互相的完成那不要忘記了"},{"start":11674.134,"end":11702.625,"text":"極端的案子是會形成僵局大部分的案子是妥協的那妥協就會完成立法了所以說我們是希望就是民進黨的國會議員他雖然比較少數席但是也不少他也是代表局部的民意所以說必須是兩個通通要妥協而沒有說不是說我是退回富裕我贏了因此我就通知那行政院就必須只能遵命並沒有這樣子的而只是說"},{"start":11703.525,"end":11719.345,"text":"現在是徵修條文它只是說形成僵局因此立法權它可以根據第三款它可以來倒閣它如果沒有倒閣的話那這裡還是僵局並沒有說誰一定是吃定了誰並沒有這樣的一個義務存在謝謝謝謝陳怡凱教授寶貴的發言"},{"start":11722.689,"end":11743.624,"text":"特别跟各位学者专家我们今天练习的委员来报告我们今天综合答复的部分进行就到此为止今天再一次感谢到场的所有的学者专家以及审查小组每位委员宝贵的意见本日会议的发言记录以及书面资料我们将依相关规定分送全体委员与会议学者专家做参考"},{"start":11744.685,"end":11755.414,"text":"而且并会列入我们立法院的公报记录成为国会正式记录再次谢谢大家各位的参与今天第一场公订会进行到此为止我们现在散会"}]}},{"id":"167103","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167103","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6399fdda9b56c206b99f0d186469f9d4328ede6b2c11b806385fc5afbf86f6ad3eca6ea80bfd1def5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"10:33:30 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和柯建民呢他並沒有選擇和在野黨溝通來對話而是選擇把在野黨妖魔化 抹黑又抹紅"},{"start":97.135,"end":101.418,"text":"並且在114年的2月新會期開始的時候動員了行政輿論還有檢調全面的去對抗國會而進行了726跟823的大罷免行動所謂的團結十獎其實就是要分裂社會那總統還公開鼓吹要打掉異議的雜誌"},{"start":122.773,"end":146.332,"text":"那大罷免潮呢 不僅讓台灣陷入了政治動盪也是社會不安定的源頭726 823 全民用選票表達了對賴的不滿對民主政治的堅持的必要32比0 就是大罷免大失敗多數民眾透過罷免案的投票 打臉了賴政府"},{"start":147.421,"end":174.215,"text":"那總統823當天說到尊重人民的意志 肯定民主的力量政府會檢討 而且要做內閣調整這樣的話呢 言猶在耳但是江山易改 本性難移啊朝野對抗持續著我們再看看 後來有經歷了八次的復疫的失敗案例最近的一次是在114年的12月"},{"start":174.995,"end":184.206,"text":"行政院就立法院修訂通過的財政收支劃分法提出了複議這是第八次遭到立法院否決的法律案"},{"start":186.072,"end":205.081,"text":"依照憲法徵修條文的第三條跟憲法第57條的意旨復議失敗後行政院應該立即接受尊重國會的決議總統附有公佈法律的憲法義務這個就是憲法責任政治跟權力分立的核心設計"},{"start":207.103,"end":231.322,"text":"總統公佈法律 須經過行政院長附屬CountersightCountersight附屬的核心精神就是誰附屬 誰就是要負政治責任這樣的明顯的道理是18世紀以來民主責任政治的核心然那政府卻自行認定法律違憲拒絕完成附屬跟公佈程序使得行政權公然偏離國會多數意志"},{"start":233.363,"end":251.671,"text":"賴清德跟卓榮泰行政團隊利用不附屬權的荒謬手段公然踐踏民主程序掀起憲政危機立法院依法通過行政財政收支劃分法的修正案旨在消除中央與地方的財源不均的現象這是民進黨在野時期的主張但賴清德總統跟卓榮泰"},{"start":259.827,"end":264.651,"text":"卻無視民意跟國會的決議 強行阻擋了法案的公佈彰顯了他們獨裁且專斷的治理態度這不只是政治操作的法律問題 而是權力濫用的赤裸裸的表現藉由行政權力來壓制立法權 破壞三權分立的憲政基石讓民主政治 民主程序淪為擺設"},{"start":283.186,"end":297.267,"text":"行政院左翁太執意將拒絕將地方財政納入執行的範圍無視憲法保障地方自治而是加強了中央的集權展現了對民主制度的侵略更構成了對司法權的僭越"},{"start":298.809,"end":316.826,"text":"若這個案例被合理化未來總統皆可以任意拒絕公布不符合執政黨利益的這樣的法律形同實質廢除立法院並走向行政獨裁我們再看看總統如何不因應長期的大法官的缺額造成憲法的審查機制癱瘓"},{"start":318.507,"end":324.49,"text":"大法官有15人他要滿邊運作的話就要確保憲法能夠解釋能夠正常的進行跟有他的節制性到113年底開始有近7名的大法官選額的缺額僅剩8位大法官他仍可以開庭做收案分案跟行政性跟程序性的事項處理但不能進行實質實體的評論也不能做成違憲的宣告"},{"start":346.978,"end":368.751,"text":"現行憲法法庭卻未在未達新法或舊法門檻至少要六位的情況呢仍然自行作成判決 宣告憲法訴訟法違憲已經明確的違法了 製造了憲政的危機這再追蹤到三個理由 第一個是明確的違反憲法訴訟法未達法定構成的條件"},{"start":369.611,"end":383.21,"text":"第二個他程序違法因為只有足夠的人數有高度共識才能夠形成這個做出的裁判來能夠被社會來接受第三個他構成憲法結構性的一個風險"},{"start":385.94,"end":406.911,"text":"這樣子大家可以想像嗎如果有少數的大法官五位就在否決國會多數民意的這種荒蕩性那司法院本來是一個憲法守門人現在變成什麼變成權力的行使者了變成政治的否決者了這又變成全球的民主笑柄了"},{"start":409.98,"end":423.612,"text":"面對的是憲法法院人數不足的問題有沒有解方呢 有喔在4至632號解釋當中包括了總統在內的憲政機關他們對於憲法都有忠誠義務"},{"start":425.453,"end":454.685,"text":"面對大法官的缺額具提名權的總統就應該積極的與在野黨協商進行補提名大法官的程序排除目前的非常態狀態才是正確的解方但是但是我們看到的是那總統卻選擇消極的放任甚至縱容司法機關在違反自身程序下運作形成求援兼裁判的荒謬現象嚴重損害了憲政的正當性"},{"start":456.276,"end":475.681,"text":"結論呢 就是知道賴清德總統明知有憲政風險性 但是仍執意為之是一個得不配位的總統啊我們看到他上任以來 剛愎自用 慌常的妄行導致國會的失能 司法失序 仍不進行修補 不節制反而獨攬了權力 來架空國會"},{"start":482.503,"end":488.875,"text":"僭越司法這已被政策的選擇而是嚴重的破壞台灣民主的憲政危機這次的彈劾"},{"start":492.797,"end":514.4,"text":"並不是為了政黨的勝負而是為了讓憲政責任被歷史記錄注意到是歷史記錄即使是必須三分之二的立法院的多數才能通過那在野黨只有二分之一但是我們必須讓這個憲政的責任被歷史記錄權力也制衡也必須落實"},{"start":515.959,"end":529.787,"text":"任何違憲亂政的行為必須要付出代價終將要接受歷史的審判這是非常嚴厲的一個控訴大家想想昨天有一個新聞是"},{"start":531.884,"end":546.52,"text":"韓國的特檢向法院請求將內亂守摩的起訴的尹錫悅前總統處以死刑注意到這個就在發生在一年前的事情"},{"start":548.219,"end":572.794,"text":"韓國的例子應見不遠我們在在野黨就是提出這樣的一個忠告請賴總統好好的去思考應該要首先守法首先守法而且請總統要慎行不要重蹈覆轍不然的話真的是非常後果的嚴重尹錫悅的案例就在我們的身旁就在眼前 謝謝"},{"start":574.52,"end":583.037,"text":"好 謝謝劉淑冰委員發言接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言虛巧新聞請準備好 主席在場出席的"}]}},{"id":"167102","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167102","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6399fdda9b56c206c028cce64b5f3e0a328ede6b2c11b806f2bfab78e7eaed58be8a7296b23f08fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"10:23:15 - 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院際之間有任何解不開的站在總統的高度你應該就是比較客觀中道的立場來怎麼來解決但是剛好賴總統就是對倒一面的就跟卓院長兩個人互合中華民國憲法第48條"},{"start":65.436,"end":76.981,"text":"總統應於就職時就宣布以謹以至誠向全國人民來宣誓一臂遵守憲法盡忠職守來增進整個人民的福利來保衛國家"},{"start":79.456,"end":102.389,"text":"絕對不護國民的護托如違誓言願接受整個國家嚴厲之制裁那2024大選結束以後那總統上任以來人民期待的是一位全民的總統我們希望經濟提升兩岸和平從政的人要求要清廉但是我們今天看到的是一位鬥雞的總統"},{"start":103.71,"end":120.428,"text":"今天台灣的憲政困局不是一天造成的而是賴總統一步一步策劃的焦土戰略因為總統的權力不斷擴張行政責任卻日益的模糊整個國會監督被執政者視為阻礙"},{"start":123.117,"end":144.064,"text":"如果總統以個人的意志就可以削弱整個國會的監督我們是代表全體人民來監督政府放任行政權力來失衡那才是真正民主憲政的危機那如果我們對賴總統整個他在公然毀憲亂政"},{"start":146.298,"end":169.127,"text":"踐踏整個法律選擇性不執行的立法院三途通過的法律案還視若無睹那才是對不起民意那才是真正的失職今天的局面是賴清德總統一手促成從上任以來一步步摧毀了這個國家的整個憲政的秩序這場憲政危機不是一天造成的"},{"start":170.067,"end":190.974,"text":"回顧過去我們可以看到賴清德總統亂政的五部曲第一部濫用互議權把行政院變成互議院只要是賴總統不喜歡的對立法院三讀通過的整個華麗案反射性的也提互議第二部就是濫用釋憲"},{"start":193.066,"end":200.404,"text":"因為護衣輸了不認帳執政黨將政治影響力深進整個憲法法庭媒體報導"},{"start":201.943,"end":223.2,"text":"府院曾透過政黨高層與大法官溝通但憲法訴訟法不論是從舊法或新法憲法法庭評議人數不足其公正性受到全民的質疑第三步大法官缺而困境始作俑者就是賴清哲總統"},{"start":224.321,"end":246.615,"text":"因為賴清德總統故意提名立場偏頗或帶有特定意識形態的大法官甚至於聯民進黨黨團祭出黨祭要求綠委所有的綠營的委員對特定提名的人投下反對票等於打臉賴總統立法院拒絕賴總統所提名大法官的名單"},{"start":247.935,"end":261.174,"text":"只是剛好而已啦卻反過來指控立法院癱瘓憲法法庭簡直就是作賊喊捉賊那第四步我想"},{"start":263.048,"end":288.03,"text":"發動大罷免身為總統不失團結動員整個社會的仇恨對在野黨發動無差別的全面性的罷免民進黨立法院黨團總召柯建民也說每週三固定向賴總統開會報告大罷免進度賴總統全部都知情結果32比0慘遭民意的火絕第五步"},{"start":290.712,"end":310.762,"text":"終極違憲 沒收法律大罷免失敗後對立法院通過的這些法律案直接不公佈 不附屬 不執行從呼籲釋憲大法官人選提名發動大罷免到最後直接拒絕執行法律賴總統上任以來這一年多來花在鬥爭的"},{"start":312.591,"end":335.349,"text":"上的心力遠遠超過治國上的一些時間把國家搞得烏煙瘴氣這才叫做不辦正事那第五 賴總統現在最大的謊言就是附屬扭曲城火絕拳甚至以拿美國總統的權力來類比"},{"start":338.86,"end":360.913,"text":"這完全是混淆視聽首先1997年修憲時為了讓總統能夠直接任命行政院長特別將互譽門檻從三分之二調降為二分之一當時的修憲原例寫得清清楚楚只要立法院二分之一維持原例行政院就必須接受"},{"start":361.673,"end":388.706,"text":"沒有推翻的餘地再來行政院長的戶屬是用來負責不是用來否決在我國憲政體制下戶屬是憲法明定的程序義務戶屬的設計是為了讓行政院長承擔政治責任不是給行政院長用來對抗國會的武器畢竟我們都知道行政院長"},{"start":389.887,"end":412.19,"text":"他是總統指定並沒有經過立法院來投票美國總統有伙絕權但中華民國總統沒有兩者在憲政制度上本來就有根本性的差異那總統跟卓院長想要行使口袋伙絕"},{"start":413.371,"end":437.351,"text":"這完全背離了中華民國憲法把自己當成了太上環行政院長以不附屬為由將對總統的制衡扭曲硬拗為對抗國會的工具總統更公然違憲拒絕公布惡意的扭曲整個憲法的意旨徹底違背中華民國憲法第37條對總統權力制衡的憲政之"},{"start":442.943,"end":464.923,"text":"以及第72條總統公佈法律之憲法義務創下中華民國行憲以來最壞的惡例為什麼要彈劾賴清德因為他才是這一切違憲行為的幕後主導者就在去年12月12日賴清德總統"},{"start":466.28,"end":483.597,"text":"主動召集民進黨立委在黨部開了一場便當會賴總統拍板定案主導了採不戶屬或戶屬或不執行的違憲策略甚至於說要由行政院行政部門來做出"},{"start":484.358,"end":504.423,"text":"最終的決斷表面上是卓榮泰院長拒絕簽字實際上是賴總統在幕後下指導旗卓院長送出不附屬的簽署文後賴總統馬上用總統的便簽來發言給立法院把責任全部推給卓院長"},{"start":507.956,"end":531.347,"text":"這叫做什麼 這叫做借刀殺人因為賴總統躲在行政院長背後把卓院長當成黨箭牌自己裝作無辜修憲後行政院長實質上是總統的木鳥掌如果不是賴總統授意卓院長敢不簽字嗎如今總統帶頭違法受害的是全體國民在財政上因為總統拒絕公佈"},{"start":535.967,"end":560.504,"text":"整個財化法行政院不願從偏預算中央政府都在苛刻應屬於地方的預算台北市長蔣萬安最近也呼籲希望行政院長依法編列預算為什麼地方首長要喊賴總統因為賴總統把錢苛刻在中央口袋裡寧願讓地方建設停擺也要掌握整個財政的大權誰聽話我賴總統"},{"start":564.467,"end":587.624,"text":"這個卓院長卓榮泰才會補助預算所以說賴總統上任以後整個他的高度介入行政立法的攻防的執行模式對於行政院施政方向重大的策略屢屢以總統身份直接來定調弱化了整個行政院長責任的政治形成超級總統制"},{"start":589.706,"end":609.641,"text":"賴總統與卓院長聯手推翻立法院三讀通過的法律這才是破壞權力的分立所以說我們今天為什麼會來提整個彈劾案我相信啦零零總總太多了啦可以說一羅匡那其實這樣是剛好而已以上謝謝謝謝林德福委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"167105","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167105","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6399fdda9b56c206f7e9937c82f2bcc0328ede6b2c11b806385fc5afbf86f6ad43de59c930387d485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:53:29 - 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這個有沒有違法或是違憲的問題可是今天彈劾他並不只是 並不只限於違法或是違憲他對於一個 一個政治人物 他如果有沒有觸犯法律但是發生 比如違反憲法上的義務"},{"start":55.905,"end":75.794,"text":"破壞憲政的秩序權力的分立有重大的濫權跟失職或者是背離了他作為一個總統應該要遵守的憲政界線這都不是有一條刑法寫在那裡但是卻可能能夠構成彈劾的一個重大理由"},{"start":77.093,"end":89.892,"text":"好 那雖然呢 我舉另外一個例子給大家聽喔雖然 市長並不是總統他的彈劾的方式不一樣但是我們對彈劾的精神基本是一致的"},{"start":91.463,"end":110.973,"text":"舉一個最好的例子賴清德總統自己本身就被彈劾過他當初被彈劾的時候是作為台南市的市長一百零四年合字第十號在二零一五年的時候台南市長任內兩百多天在市議會開會時間拒不列席議會曾經被彈劾"},{"start":116.343,"end":138.065,"text":"他也可以說 請問我是違了哪一條法我有刑事責任嗎 我違憲了嗎但是不好意思 你做出這樣子的在作為一個市長 不進到議會裡面接受議員的質詢 長達兩百多天這就是一個彈劾的理由"},{"start":139.068,"end":167.326,"text":"在對於市長的彈劾的一個途徑裡面也確實他呢有被判定彈劾所以今天碰到的問題只是對於總統要更謹慎所以我們的程序更加嚴謹然後呢門檻也更高但不代表今天彈劾的理由有任何的不正當這是我第一個要表達的"},{"start":168.837,"end":197.566,"text":"第二件事情今天很多包含我們學者專家立法委員都談到了各國各國對於不附屬的憲政意涵可是我們也要注意到中華民國是一個五權分立的國家我們的憲法在經過多次的增修條文的改變之後你難以與世界上另外一個國家做完全百分之百的對比"},{"start":199.013,"end":217.728,"text":"所以拿美國出來提的 拿韓國出來提的我姑且先不論是屬於總統制 內閣制或是法國的半首長制跟台灣也不一樣我們要看這部憲法它具體而言在台灣它代表什麼樣的一個意義"},{"start":218.806,"end":235.325,"text":"而附屬權他是要來制衡哪一位是制衡立法院嗎還是制衡總統呢剛剛有幾位學者專家針對這個部分講得非常清楚我就不再做贅述了"},{"start":237.414,"end":253.452,"text":"總統府的秘書長潘孟安先生曾經在國會被尋的時候非常清楚的表明立法院通過的法律他們是一定得行政院是一定得附屬的 否則會打臉賴清德 賴總統"},{"start":255.186,"end":273.376,"text":"這是總統府的秘書長潘孟安先生在我們他在備詢的時候親口所說的所以總統府自己就非常清楚的認知到附屬權今天要制衡的對象其實是總統而不是立法院"},{"start":274.707,"end":298.07,"text":"那既然你都知道了那為什麼後續還要利用附屬權來去做政治上面的攻防來去做對立法院的處處的執軸這個就是我們認為非常不合理違反憲政的分立的地方當然也就是彈劾的理由"},{"start":300.001,"end":328.579,"text":"還有很多其他的例子我舉一個我個人特別在乎的例子在軍人待遇條例的三讀法案修正之後我想問問大家剛才好多的學者們都說了如果今天按照我們國家的憲政體制立法院三讀通過的法律行政院認為有摯愛難行之處的時候他要提出什麼剛才大家都說了叫做復議"},{"start":329.949,"end":350.377,"text":"我請問大家回去看看軍人待遇條例當初行政院有提出附議嗎有嗎沒有反過來說我們是不是可以解讀為行政院並不認為軍人待遇條例的修正案有至愛難行之處那為什麼總統在簽了總統令之後"},{"start":356.932,"end":383.372,"text":"其實附屬也都附屬了行政院卻拒不執行也並無編列任何的預算然後呢就這樣子送進了一份違法不合法的預算進來要求立法院要審查而賴清德賴總統竟然作為幫兇要求立法院審查這一份並不合法的預算"},{"start":384.591,"end":402.277,"text":"今天吧 還昨天 還去計算了天數說 哎呀 已經幾百多天了作為一個三軍統帥當你的總統令已經蓋在上面讓所有我們16萬的國軍弟兄都知道三獨通過的法律要上路了"},{"start":403.291,"end":427.065,"text":"我們這一年當中的官校史上第一次招滿超收這對國家來說本來是大好事一件在少子女化的現代社會當中我們都擔心沒有人要從軍兩岸關係如此的惡化兵凶戰危賴清德總統說中共2027年要準備武統台灣"},{"start":429.039,"end":452.728,"text":"那請問如果我沒有人來做軍人的話那誰來保家衛國可是這樣子一份帶著好意的能夠提高待遇以至於優秀的人才被留下來不適合的人才可以太除的法案卻在行政院以及總統作為一個三軍統帥者"},{"start":455.458,"end":472.778,"text":"的一個干涉之下拒不編列預算不執行相關法律我想在權力分立的任何一個國家當中立法單位只有僅僅一個要求最基本的要求是要求行政機關應該要依法行政"},{"start":473.826,"end":498.605,"text":"如果今天行政机关连依法行政都做不到而在我国的制度里面行政院长又是由总统来提名的总统竟然为虎作仓那他当然符合了我们今天要弹劾他的要件这就是一个重大的违师以及呢他破坏了权力的分离"},{"start":499.566,"end":515.867,"text":"他或許是間接的破壞了權力的分立但是在我國的政治體制裡面作為一個總統破壞憲政秩序破壞權力分立最簡單的方式是透過他所任命的行政院長來做這件事情"},{"start":516.949,"end":543.878,"text":"所以哪怕是總統站出來批評卓榮泰院長告訴他你不應該這麼做當初沒有提出復議代表你沒有認為有摯愛男性之處三讀通過的法律應該要依法行政哪怕是賴清德總統他表個態今天都不至於影響這麼大可是賴總統有嗎他對於這些日子以來行政院"},{"start":545.14,"end":568.054,"text":"不依法行政的種種惡質的行為 他有過批評嗎不僅沒有 他還站在卓榮泰院長的這一邊啊所以今天 為什麼我們彈劾的對象叫做賴清德總統按照我國的體制 今天就算是倒閣了卓榮泰院長下台了 還有千千萬萬個卓榮泰"},{"start":570.766,"end":585.043,"text":"還有千千萬萬個九龍泰啊說不定更糟糕啊說不定對於權力的分立對於憲法的體制破壞的更嚴重啊所以因為行政院長是由總統來任命的所以我們今天彈劾的對象"},{"start":586.545,"end":611.541,"text":"我們今天針對所謂的重大的圍屍破壞權力分立的真正的始作俑者就是賴清德賴總統所以我們才要把他視為彈劾的對象而且並有充足的理由從不合法的送進預算再到鼓勵不附屬打臉自己都是我們要彈劾他的具體理由謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167104","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167104","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6399fdda9b56c206208e7d42076941e5328ede6b2c11b806385fc5afbf86f6ad0823a1de9c31bbb15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:43:16 - 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沒有錯就是二分之一提好罷免是四分之一彈劾是二分之一因此他要送到憲法法庭去裁決所以本次彈劾案是修憲以來的第一次總統彈劾案"},{"start":303.359,"end":324.816,"text":"那我們來看一下罷免跟彈劾有什麼差別呢罷免他是政治投票做政治上由選民來做決定彈劾他有準司法的審理必須有違法違憲的具體事實提出機關雖然都是立法院但是罷免要全體公民來公決而彈劾案由憲法法庭來做最後的審理決定那麼結果都是解職或是去刑事獲免權好"},{"start":325.834,"end":347.9,"text":"那我們來看在這次彈劾案的提出原起是什麼原起是國眾兩黨認為行政院長不附屬違憲剛剛在包括林委員 劉委員的發言當中都很清楚他們認為行政院長既然已請了復议 復议不通過根據憲法正用條文即應接受怎麼可以不附屬呢然而我們也聽到剛剛的"},{"start":350.101,"end":372.22,"text":"这个代表的学者专家包括陈一凯教授也提到了并没有所谓的行政院长服役接受就包括不能行使不附属权因此在这个学理上我想国众两党既然认为行政院长他是不附属是违宪的那根据宪法的一个安排他就应该像"},{"start":373.421,"end":395.118,"text":"大法官宪法法庭提出释宪的申请认定行政院长不附属是我违宪或者他直接追究行政院长的政治责任透过我们宪法征求条文的第四条的机制呢要求行政院长必须下台来负责但是我们看到国众两党他居然"},{"start":395.859,"end":420.32,"text":"认为行政院长不附属违宪既不向宪法法庭提出释宪的申请也不行使宪法政策条文当中有关于行政院向立法院负责的机制要求行政院长负起其政治责任也没有这样做结果呢他只发表了一个谴责行政院长的声明不去追究革魁的责任"},{"start":420.868,"end":444.859,"text":"不去行使不信任也不申請釋憲卻發表了一個無關痛癢的譴責文國會決議在我們的憲政體制裡面這樣的決議難道能對行政院如果你認定他違憲能產生任何效力嗎好了結果我們看到的因民眾黨提出的彈劾的暗由他說什麼他說居然是說"},{"start":448.783,"end":454.689,"text":"總統違反第72條的規定請問一下72條是寫什麼給大家很快的看一遍72條說"},{"start":457.83,"end":479.98,"text":"立法院法律案通過後 移送總統及行政院總統應於收到後10日內公布之好 同時給總統跟行政院為什麼要給行政院 行政院長附屬後總統才能公布啊這像是7條的規定啊所以總統如果附屬了 就在10日內公布目前有發生這樣的狀況嗎 沒有"},{"start":481.181,"end":500.178,"text":"那沒有發生後面的狀況呢但書的規定但總統得依本憲法第57條之規定辦理50條規定什麼當法律案立法院通過後已給總統跟行政院行政院可以依57條提請復议啊行政院提請復议了總統有沒有已給立法院復议呢有啊"},{"start":500.959,"end":515.328,"text":"那請問財化法既然總統在沒有隔回附屬前他不能在10日內公佈而且當行政院長提起復议後他也依憲法57條的規定已請立法院來復议了那請問"},{"start":517.062,"end":545.444,"text":"总统是违反了哪一个宪法的规定所以我们看了再看我们最后总统克尊宪法维护宪政体制那你总统没有违反72条你弹劾的正当性在哪里反过来我们看到了是国众联手瘫痪谴责宪法法庭在此同时国众两党还联手去谴责宪判14年宪判一字号认为大法官违宪天哪"},{"start":546.414,"end":574.22,"text":"依照宪法的规定司法院是最高司法机关宪法的权威解释由宪法法庭审理后做成之那立法院难道是立法院独大可以对抗吗结果呢他提案了谴责的宪法法庭然后呢他还要去跟宪法法庭要告状要说总统呢应该被弹劾所以回到最后的结论我们看到这一次国众两党提出的总统弹劾案有三个"},{"start":575.281,"end":575.802,"text":"让我们看到"},{"start":579.373,"end":608.325,"text":"三項的謬誤第一他彈劾不等於罷免要76席所以呢他認為他可以提出彈劾是一廂情願第二要違法失職總統沒有違反你們說的憲法第72條是與法無拒最後國眾癱瘓同時譴責憲法法庭不接受憲法法庭審理現在要提出彈劾案要求憲法法庭來受理這是志向矛盾於是我們認為本次的彈劾案三大誤謬不值一提"},{"start":609.246,"end":609.267,"text":"好 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謝謝院長我敬愛的各位先進還有各位公正人士還有國人同胞今天也很榮幸可以來最後一個發言那我想我今天非常仔細的聆聽各位學者專家還有各位先進的一些發言但總是有一個感想這一次提出的一個彈劾案裡面各位看到這兩份立法院的一個提案裡面其實應該可以看得很清楚"},{"start":41.298,"end":48.982,"text":"這是去年的一個提案的時候就倉促的一個提案然後今天藉著這個公聽會再來補一些理由我為什麼這樣講呢你去看在我們院總第14號這個委員提案11018160號的案由裡面這個很有趣的地方就是這個彈劾這個傅根齊跟韓國昌等委員國民黨跟台灣民眾黨"},{"start":68.852,"end":88.427,"text":"当初提出这样的一个谈判案里面理由写到了放任台积电赴美投资然后出卖台湾关键产业然后出卖中华民国的独裁总统这个看起来就很有趣了台积电现在外资持有的比例72.47就差不多1879万张政府真正拥有的股权是6.38%外资是72%"},{"start":99.657,"end":118.425,"text":"關股是6.38%那我們政府當然有政策政府身為台積電的最大的單一的一個股東他法律上當然也有可以不能讓台積電自己去做任何的一個決定尤其是對外投資如果影響到國家安全或者對國家經濟發展不利或違反國際條約違反智慧財產權"},{"start":121.087,"end":135.424,"text":"核心技术国家就不让你出去但是各位把它想想看去年提案到现在那似乎蓝白就讲说你怎么可以出卖放任台积电赴美投资去年这个案子提出的时候台积电是1400块"},{"start":137.166,"end":161.66,"text":"今天1月13号来讲的话是超过1700块好像是在讲说你这个政府怎么可以这么糟糕让台积电到赴美去投资以后让股价从1400涨到1700这个让人觉得错乱至于总统到底是不是一个出卖中华民国的独裁总统我看从刚刚学者专家里面也提到的用词里面也都很强烈丢脸无耻什么独裁全部都讲出来了"},{"start":166.903,"end":169.184,"text":"賴總統上來以後到這段時間裡面我相信沒有人會覺得他是一個獨裁的總統讓我們整個民主可以繼續大鳴大放讓台灣的民主可以大放異彩沒有任何言論自由會受到任何的剝奪"},{"start":189.35,"end":210.498,"text":"尤其是第二份關鍵文書裡面提到非常憂心說現在的狀況很擔心這個場景就有點像是110年前的中國把他類別成袁世凱說會逐步架空國會解散政黨迫害異己甚至於中日會廢除選舉沒收民權這個其實講的都是中國國民黨"},{"start":214.468,"end":219.594,"text":"所以也就是說這兩份關係的文件,當成一個歷史記錄,當初寫出這兩份就非常的丟臉。國家亂不亂?國家當然亂。國家這個亂的原因根源在什麼地方?就是立法院的素質太低了。"},{"start":237.595,"end":246.143,"text":"難怪立法院一直擴權是的 剛剛林教授指教的確實啊 民進黨曾經要提出國會改革啊我們要提出國會改革啊後來現在在這一屆的國會提出改革法案藍白通過的法案裡面改革了嗎所以讓國家的憲政更大亂"},{"start":257.939,"end":268.864,"text":"當一個國會改革的法案是連到最後立法院都可以當檢察官可以當法官可以把憲法法庭的判決提出來說把它做一個決議說要無效這個叫做荒謬這個叫做荒謬所以以今天大家在提的部分在野黨今天"},{"start":278.719,"end":291.326,"text":"講的是憲政就問責但其實這是一場政治的一個表演這不是在追究法律責任這個是在製造一個政治鬥爭的一個舞台那我必須要講的就是說我們今天在整個"},{"start":298.463,"end":313.604,"text":"決議文裡面去提到說潘孟安秘書長到立法院接受詢答的時候曾經有去講過的說如果不附屬的話是打臉總統那個是在司法法制委員會接受我質詢這個擷取這一段全部都錯"},{"start":315.1,"end":334.247,"text":"我去年在司法法治委員會質詢的時候當初的問法是說立法院已經通過了憲法訴訟法的一個法案門檻把你給提高了那你到最後如果說立法院通過的法令"},{"start":336.348,"end":350.022,"text":"行政院長附屬或者總統公佈你要走哪兩條路總統到底你會不會公佈他說總統當然要公佈那行政院長會不會附屬他說不附屬就會打臉總統我真正的核心是跟他講說其實都不對哪怕是立法院通過以後啊限訴法以後啊"},{"start":356.696,"end":375.781,"text":"憲法法庭還是可以把憲訴法他認為是違憲的地方還是可以把他在一個個案裡面把他給宣告違憲我的危言大義是在這個地方那我們今天走的是一個彈劾程序各位你可以具體的指出說賴清德總統哪一個地方違法跟違憲嗎到底誰講的算"},{"start":379.841,"end":405.638,"text":"誰講的算我為什麼說今天這個不是一個憲政的一個究責這個是一個政治的一個表演這個是一場鬥爭憲法本身不會講話憲法的條文他哪會講話到底有沒有違憲就是要一個憲法法庭以前叫做大法官會議那好啦那憲法法庭做出來說到底法令有沒有違背法令有沒有違背憲法你說憲法法庭講的不算"},{"start":407.196,"end":427.874,"text":"就是先把整個憲法法庭把它給摧毀掉以後讓你行政部門針對三權分立或者五權分立立法院所送出的法案行政部門認為自然難情甚至有沒有違憲他要送到憲法法庭去的時候他把那一個台子把它給拆掉了產生今天台灣這樣的一個亂"},{"start":429.338,"end":439.924,"text":"所以呢 這個叫做正門不走 要走後門我今天早上聽了很多 大家一直在罵其實罵的都是在罵卓榮泰那如果說你今天要罵卓榮泰那反而說 罵卓榮泰 你怎麼不附屬所以我彈劾你總統 這好奇怪你說卓榮泰違法亂紀 甚至於他違憲要把卓榮泰解決掉 沒有那麼困難"},{"start":456.38,"end":462.362,"text":"要把卓榮泰院長解決掉 你就走真正的憲政程序你就很簡單 你就提一個不信任案今天各位所提到的是痛罵卓榮泰 然後彈劾賴清德總統這個邏輯不通啊 你應該你說總統高高在上沒有人拿他有辦法嗎 有 還是有辦法"},{"start":479.125,"end":494.678,"text":"還是有辦法今天走的你是明明知道是不可行你搭一個舞台搞這樣的一個政治鬥爭然後你究責的對象其實是行政院院長那你應該走的是提了一個不信任案那你真正要究責憲政究責總統那你可以走罷免案你可以走罷免案那各位可能會覺得說你怎麼你這個行政院長你怎麼可以不附屬"},{"start":503.402,"end":513.757,"text":"學者專家只要出現以後就代表又會開花了大家講的又完全又不一樣了真正的附屬的一個制度其實也是在制衡總統"},{"start":515.458,"end":519.942,"text":"一個法令倒不是你總統講的算沒有經過整個行政院長按照整個憲政的一個規定說行政院長來附屬以後總統確實也不能去公佈這樣的一個法令那這個結到底要怎麼結我相信這個才是重點"},{"start":540.501,"end":543.962,"text":"那今天呢這個彈劾的一個對象裡面啊看得出來很明顯就是一個移花接木啊賴清德總統也許他也問啊我總統是何罪之有啊那真正該究責的國會改革以後改革完的一個法令這幾年這一兩年的立法院的亂象大家看到了這個就是倉促修法透過多數"},{"start":567.486,"end":592.082,"text":"不去做討論產生的嚴正的一個後遺症憲法法庭113年憲判第九號其實也明白指出總統跟立法院之間並不存在的直接的政治責任關係藍白也許覺得說我們加起來比你還要多你總統的選票裡面你占的還不到沒有過半所以在立法院你最大的民意基礎"},{"start":593.288,"end":594.409,"text":"可是把它想想看如果以台灣個人來看的話真正當選的人還是總統最大的民意基礎還是總統立法院要監督行政權應該是要走憲法的正門不要鑽這種政治的一個後門"},{"start":610.996,"end":627.552,"text":"宪判制第114案宪判制第9号里面总统跟立法院之间不存在直接的一个政治责任关系总统其实真的不是对立法院负责了立法院也没有直接向总统问责的一个宪法的一个权限以上请各位来做一个参考谢谢"}]}},{"id":"167106","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167106","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6399fdda9b56c206db82269485661aa3328ede6b2c11b806385fc5afbf86f6adf1956145e7c495575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:03:49 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總統沒有到立法院做國情報告的憲法義務二 立法院也沒有要求總統來立法院報告的憲法權利三 國會擴權法案的修正內容對於總統不具有憲法上的拘束力"},{"start":116.727,"end":136.946,"text":"簡單的說直白的說藍白就是想叫總統來羞辱就是想要羞辱總統在憲法上就是不行被憲法法庭打臉之後藍白立委不甘心不甘願他們繼續想要二推因此提出了今天的彈劾案但我們要說彈劾案是為了追究"},{"start":138.527,"end":153.297,"text":"總統的違法或者是嚴重失職的責任但我們看不出來截至目前為止賴總統有任何違法失職的事項而如果是提出罷免案也就是要追究政治責任那又是另當一回事剛剛鍾嘉斌委員已經說了"},{"start":154.378,"end":166.563,"text":"彈劾案跟罷免案截然的不同其中的政治責任跟相關的表決票數也不一樣不是你們藍白說了算如果大家看清楚背後的目的就是為了羞辱賴總統把賴總統叫到立法院來問話讓你們問好問滿所以才會推出今天的彈劾案"},{"start":172.285,"end":192.844,"text":"所有的彈劾案就是為了羞辱賴總統我要一再一再的強調也請國人看清楚現在的立法院就是在陪藍白立委作秀的垃圾時間今天禮拜三 明天禮拜四下個禮拜三的禮拜四總共用掉了四天的委員會變成了選院委員會陪你們作秀的這樣一場秀"},{"start":194.145,"end":220.937,"text":"到底要全國人民付出多少代價因此我要再次提醒藍白立院職權行使法第43條第二項規定全院委員會審查的時候得由立法院邀請被彈劾人列席說明法律的規定是得邀請並沒有說被邀請的人必須出席所以我要再次強調賴清德總統沒有任何法律上的義務必須要出席彈劾說明會"},{"start":222.057,"end":250.443,"text":"更不要說這一場說明會是一場作秀的政治鬧劇結果藍白搞了這個總統可以不來的彈劾案卻不敢提出罷免案審查的時程還要排到今年的四月跟五月更不要說如果彈劾案要通過的立法委員人數是三分之二而且如果真的通過之後還要送去那個每天被你們罵的違憲的憲法法庭請問你們難道不是自打嘴巴嗎"},{"start":251.992,"end":265.53,"text":"說穿了整個總統彈劾案就是藍白立法院黨團不顧民生不顧預算不顧憲政秩序只為了政治操作欺騙台灣人民所以這是實實在在的政治鬧劇"},{"start":266.752,"end":283.679,"text":"接下來我說藍白的政治算計除了在總統談額上表現一覽無遺之外他們到底在立法院還做了什麼事情要拜託國人一起看清楚第一個是總預算最該做的事情是總預算不審拖到1月中還不願意交付委員會審查"},{"start":285.079,"end":305.761,"text":"現在人民所喊的TPAS治水防洪預算公共托育甚至災害預備金有的藍白立委還搞不清楚災害預備金是新型計畫的預算如果沒有辦法讓總預算現在通過審查未來是沒有辦法動之的而這一切都是藍白造的孽都被藍白卡住"},{"start":306.241,"end":334.765,"text":"未來地方政府有任何預算動之的需求就請找藍白立委黨團算帳更不要說行政院版本的裁劃法到目前為止一樣被卡在程序委員會當中請聽聽看你們的陳宇珍委員柯志恩委員蘇清泉委員都曾經公開的說過院版的裁劃法比起國民黨團藍白版本更公平更可以照顧到南部的鄉親還有離島的鄉親但你們依然不管不理"},{"start":335.345,"end":356.818,"text":"最後我還要說民進黨黨團負責任的提出非常多的國安修法其中有一條包含所有的民意代表到中國敵國去必須要相關的報備我們提案超過800次到現在依然被卡在程序委員會此外 攸關國防戰力的強化防衛任性及不對稱戰力計劃採購特別條例也繼續被擋"},{"start":360.36,"end":368.992,"text":"現在今天早上看到更荒謬的是民眾黨的黃國昌甚至說他要提出自己的條例版本我就問請你請問你有什麼樣的資格請問你是軍事專家嗎還是你去美國去了一趟回來你認為你就可以代表台灣人提出相關的特別條例"},{"start":377.382,"end":399.883,"text":"非常的荒謬跟預算或者是我就直接點破到時候會不會是你只送你自己的版本透過程序委員會進到相關委員會然後繼續卡行政院的版本這就是現在的藍白在立法院做的荒謬鬧劇天天做政治算計天天只在乎自己的利益完全不管台灣人民的生死我要再說一次程序委員會只審格式不審內容"},{"start":403.106,"end":418.316,"text":"只是櫃台掛號還不到看診階段如果要審時值內容請交付到各個專業的委員會送到院會討論跟相關審查但藍白就只願意在程序委員會擋住繼續欺騙台灣人民我要強調"},{"start":419.616,"end":441.092,"text":"過去民進黨國會多數的時候也從來沒有像藍白的立法委員現在在程序委員會這麼惡意檔案這就是所謂多數暴力的藍白政黨立法院多數當家是你藍白再說一次當家不做事只鬧事就是你們藍白政黨我也要再幫大家回憶一下"},{"start":443.154,"end":464.849,"text":"2024年的國會擴權法案當時修法的時候藍白黨團竟然還提出要求一般老百姓交出資料不交就罰錢甚至還要求一般老百姓來立法院開聽證會不來也罰錢當然後續就被判違憲我不知道今天在場的藍白立法委員還記不記得自己曾經有過這個荒謬的提案"},{"start":465.789,"end":474.392,"text":"會不會當時匆匆忙忙送出委員會 你們根本就不記得自己提了什麼 修了什麼你們不願意面對自己過去造下的錯誤 現在繼續犯錯然後呢 繼續頂嘴跟上去接下來 惡修憲法訴訟法 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翁小林等人屢次在會期中前往中國傅昆奇第一次更是帶了多名的委員會的召委前去中國拜碼頭我們不知道你們見了誰我們不知道你們談了什麼我們不知道你們達成了什麼協議"},{"start":590.743,"end":617.022,"text":"但是人民可以看見的是你們每次從中國回來台灣立法院就只有更亂比亂還要更亂就是你們所造成的而這一切我要再次提醒立法院當家做主的是你國民黨連院長都是國民黨的提名人選所以真正當家鬧事真正正事不做搞得全國人民雞飛狗跳的也就是你們藍白政黨因此我要再次呼籲"},{"start":618.443,"end":646,"text":"請你們不要再唱喝中共請你們不要在立法院繼續迴憲亂政請你們主席請尊重我最後一個發言謝謝最後我要說如果在台灣我們希望國家可以長治久安需要的是人民團結立法院所有黨團也可以團結理性和平的討論讓所有相關的實質法案還有預算實質推進而不是配合藍白一直在演政治鬧劇"}]}},{"id":"17198","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17198","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd887255d90a3546e0428d4f534cd2d8630a219bd209750d2d2550dd3429406bed5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-13T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期程序委員會第16次會議（事由：一、審定本院第11屆第4會期第18次會議議事日程及人民請願案\n二、審定本院第11屆第4會期第3次全院委員會議事日程）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-13T11:31:03+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-13T12:31:00+08:00","duration":3597,"影片長度":"00:59:57","委員發言時間":"11:31:03 - 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軍人及其家屬優待條例"},{"start":2056.09,"end":2076.019,"text":"陸海工軍軍官士官服役條例交外交及國防委員會審查 十三委員李彥秀等你具衛生福利部兒校及家庭知識署組織法交司法及法制社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查 十四委員羅廷偉等你具環境影響評估法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 十五至十六委員鄭天才等你具原住民族教育法交教育人文化內政兩委員會審查"},{"start":2077.319,"end":2102.558,"text":"發展觀光條例交交通委員會審查 十七至二十文曾經會等你據 家事事件法交司法及法治委員會審查 兒童及少年未來教育與發展帳戶條例 兒童及少年福利與權益保障法 要事法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 二十一至二十二文廖偉強等你據 衛生福利部長期照顧及社會發展書組織法 衛生福利部兒童兒少及家庭支持書組織法交司法及法治 社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查"},{"start":2104.139,"end":2127.555,"text":"民進黨黨團提政令23-26 文流政國等理據 衛生福利部長期照顧及社會發展輸入組織法 國家醫療科技評估中心設置條例衛生福利部組織法 衛生福利部兒校及家庭支持輸入組織法交司法及法治社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查27-30 文書小會等理據 警察法交內政委員會審查 太空發展法交交易局文化委員會審查 文化依據講述及促進條例交交易局文化財政兩委員會審查"},{"start":2128.556,"end":2153.111,"text":"身心障礙者權益保障法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 三十一委員王振旭的擬居人工生殖法交社會福利及衛生環境司法及法治兩委員會審查 三十二委員王美惠的擬居社會秩序維護法交內政委員會審查 三十三委員林一錦的擬居立法委員行為法交司法及法治委員會審查 三十四委員沈博洋的擬居香港澳門關係條例交內政委員會審查 三十五委員李博義的擬居立法院議事規則交司法及法治委員會審查"},{"start":2153.951,"end":2154.512,"text":"臺灣地區到地區人民關係條例交內政委員會審查"},{"start":2169.048,"end":2196.144,"text":"五十至五十四行政院行政審議財政收支劃分法交財政委員會審查強化防衛任性及不對稱戰利計畫採購特別條例交外交及國防財政兩委員會審查社會秩序維護法交內政委員會審查動物保護法交經濟委員會審查發展觀光條例交交通委員會審查臺灣民眾黨黨團提議增列五十五至五十六臺灣民眾黨黨團已據中央廣播電臺設置條例交司法體法制交易局文化兩委員會審查土地法交內政委員會審查諮詢事項宣讀完畢"},{"start":2199.042,"end":2209.419,"text":"好 那現在我們就請登記發言 登記委員發言第一位請范委員雲發言我們並在范委員雲發言完畢的時候截止發言登記"},{"start":2222.326,"end":2234.841,"text":"針對第十一屆第四會期第十八次會議議程報告事項質詢事項建請照議事日程草案及增列報告事項通過提案人范雲民主進步黨立法院黨團"},{"start":2236.621,"end":2253.01,"text":"跟之前的每個禮拜二一樣但是我們必須要一講再講今年是史上第一次到1月了今天是1月13號再兩天就1月中總預算到現在還沒有復違連一頁都沒有打開"},{"start":2254.251,"end":2261.836,"text":"藍白在忙什麼我們看到他們在忙著想要私吞400億的國家財產來洗白黨產還忙著推根本沒有準備好的也沒有足夠的條文支撐的很多人認為傷害女性跟兒童權益的代理運母還有想要通過沒有能夠保障台灣土地正義的許多的法條"},{"start":2282.109,"end":2306.737,"text":"今天做一個教育文化的委員我想要告訴大家如果總預算沒有通過對教育的傷害我們可以看到在教育裡面傷害最多的是大學傷害最多的是足足苗學子還有大家不要忘記了連我們的許多輻射醫院包含新竹 宜蘭 台南的大學輻射醫院都會受到影響"},{"start":2307.657,"end":2331.167,"text":"以國立大學為例我們看到有22.4%的經費是要拿來讓國立大專院校的老舊校舍能夠申請改建整修因為總預算沒有辦法通過教育部連公告都沒有公告所以他會影響大學師生的安全跟教育品質我服務的新竹縣受傷慘重為什麼因為竹竹苗的增班計畫教育部答應了結果"},{"start":2337.33,"end":2362.731,"text":"三班計畫是新增計畫他有1.2億完全沒有辦法執行到116年度可能會有近2000名學生無效可讀竹竹苗有超過20間學校的校舍興建整建也連帶受到影響尤其是國立的高中預算100%受到影響我要唸給大家有竹東高中 關西高中 陽明交大附中"},{"start":2363.231,"end":2380.446,"text":"新竹時中 新竹高中 新竹高工 新竹高商 竹南高中當然還有其他我們有念到的我想請問幾位新竹縣選出來的請你們告訴你們的同事徐欣盈 林思明 還有竹市的鄭振前"},{"start":2381.147,"end":2395.434,"text":"你們能夠對這些你們當年也宣稱不是當年 去年宣稱一起爭取結果到現在因為你們不省總預算可能有兩千名足限足足苗的學生會無效可讀因為就是增班的問題"},{"start":2396.738,"end":2420.776,"text":"再來我要告訴大家醫院也會受到影響因為國立大學這邊輻射醫院基金新增16.3億佔56.5億的三分之一等於是增加40.5%台大醫院的新竹分院會受到影響又是新竹成功大學醫院的輻射醫院專門拿來做老人醫院跟高齡的計畫也會受到影響還有"},{"start":2422.057,"end":2446.639,"text":"陽明交大輻射醫院的第二期擴建計畫他在哪裡在蘭陽因為蘭陽人口老化所以他要發展強化長照偏鄉醫療那這也會受到影響你們的全程要選宜蘭縣長的人為什麼不站出來為什麼要阻撓宜蘭台南跟新竹的醫療的發展特別是照顧偏鄉的最後我要講國防預算"},{"start":2448.36,"end":2463.11,"text":"今天如果你們今天不審定議程週五又封殺就是第八次封殺我們的國防預算這已經不是台灣的議題了世界都在看我們看到AIT處長古立言他說什麼"},{"start":2463.67,"end":2483.308,"text":"他說和平與對話必須與嚇阻共存提出國防預算是透過嚇阻來提升和平的重要一步如果你不相信美國那我們看到歐洲議會友台小組的主席Michael Gallagher他前天說什麼提高國防預算有其不要"},{"start":2484.028,"end":2507.785,"text":"不應淪為政黨操作的工具朝野應該團結一致否則中國一定很高興法國的參議員太多人已經講了黃國昌在此時此刻宣稱出訪美國為了國防預算我想請他民眾黨不要捨盡求遠今天的新聞告訴我們華府資深人士說美方希望民眾黨"},{"start":2509.706,"end":2532.145,"text":"秉除黨派旗艦在國防及安全事務上展現台灣一致對外所以今天我們所有的民進黨的程序委員在這邊再次呼籲藍白時間是台灣不可逆的資源無論是孩子的教育或是台灣的防衛責任請不要再阻擋總預算跟我們的國防預算特別條例以上"},{"start":2539.914,"end":2559.99,"text":"好謝謝現在請登記第二位請盧委員現役發言本次院會第十一屆第四會期第十八次議事日程建請將議程草案將送交院會處理提案人中國國民黨立法院黨團"},{"start":2565.629,"end":2568.166,"text":"好 現在我們請登基第三位請羅委員志強發言"},{"start":2598.881,"end":2626.078,"text":"賴清德採國軍 軍人欠薪第13天賴總統 你對得起軍人嗎 你對得起國防嗎剛剛民進黨的立委在上面真的是乾坤大挪移把所有的預算審查的問題全部推給在野黨我要告訴我們的民進黨的立委"},{"start":2627.093,"end":2651.643,"text":"我聽你們剛剛講 我發現原來你們都知道啊原來你們都知道啊都知道老舊校舍要改建啊都知道長照要照顧啊都知道各個新增計畫要來執行啊原來你們都知道啊賴清德 卓榮泰 行政院按照預算法有沒有提新增計畫請立法院同意啊預算沒有審查完"},{"start":2653.168,"end":2681.737,"text":"按照預算法一樣可以請立法院來提案 同意動之啊你們擺亂的原因很簡單 我告訴大家嘛就是想造謠嘛沒關係 行政院擺亂行政院把國家的政策荒待不顧國家需要前進的責任交給在野黨啊中國國民黨跟台灣民眾黨"},{"start":2683.567,"end":2712.361,"text":"我們已經在行政院擺爛情況之下兩黨已經在會商針對新增計畫急迫性的民生預算我們會提出來然後讓立法院同意後來動之我要告訴賴清德你不要當索羅門王故事下親手殺嬰兒的那個母親今天所有的預算卡了兩個關都是賴清德"},{"start":2714.022,"end":2737.902,"text":"第一個關是什麼第二個關就是立法院合法 我們編列的合法預算包括賴清德已經拖欠13天的居能薪水包括錦霄的退休保障包括我們地方財政的需要也包括今天公教年金的停侃行政院通通不編啊"},{"start":2740.407,"end":2763.055,"text":"非法的預算 擺明賴清德的陽謀就是不讓立法院審否則你告訴我 最簡單一件事情口口聲聲喊國防 邊線比嚴重不足有武器沒軍人 賴清德你有解決這個問題嗎你喊國防 為什麼軍人你要欠薪水 我們不懂啊"},{"start":2764.912,"end":2779.725,"text":"第一道擺爛卡預算就賴清德透過不肯合法編列預算造成今天總預算沒有辦法繼續審查所以賴清德你不要自我矛盾"},{"start":2781.004,"end":2796.675,"text":"第二個更重要的就是我剛剛講民進黨立委講得很清楚啦他也知道有多少像新增計畫他也知道新增計畫行政院可以提案請立法院同意動之即便總預算沒有審完做了嗎"},{"start":2799.898,"end":2823.779,"text":"做了嗎 沒有啊 擺爛啊為什麼你如果行政院提了 立法院同意了今天民進黨有什麼辦法在台上面繼續造謠然後繼續推卸責任繼續擺爛 繼續荒誕國政沒有藉口了嘛所以我要告訴大家今天國民黨跟民眾黨我們非常負責任的我們已經在會商針對新興計畫 新增計畫"},{"start":2826.775,"end":2851.034,"text":"我們按照預算法的規定來彙整出今天來同意動資的項目我們要告訴全台灣人民真正關心國家真正關心我們的老舊校舍真正關心長照真正關心急迫民生預算真正關心TPAS生育補助的是國民黨跟民眾黨"},{"start":2852.948,"end":2879.68,"text":"賴清德跟民進黨只會造謠 只會擺爛只會想要假今天帶墮不提今天給立法院來去動之新增預算的提案透過這個政治的手段來作為他造謠抹黑的柴火我也鄭重的呼籲民進黨希望禮拜五看到你們的新增計畫提案順應羅志強的呼應"},{"start":2882.045,"end":2901.48,"text":"你既然認為你們認為老舊銷售都那麼重要禮拜五院會提出來拜託還有幾天趕快提出來不要當一個擺爛的政府 謝謝接下來我們請登記第四位審委員博洋發言"},{"start":2922.759,"end":2923.361,"text":"哈哈哈哈"},{"start":2926.704,"end":2949.894,"text":"好 謝謝主席那這個我每次都要上來登記發言很重要的一個原因就是因為這個羅志強每次都要上來先造謠造謠完之後我只好上來闢謠說真的就是浪費時間浪費我們立法委員零薪水不是來做這些造謠的事情然後也不是專門要來做闢謠但我還是要再講一次剛剛說什麼新興計畫必須要重新提出"},{"start":2950.794,"end":2968.432,"text":"我們所有的總預算包含新興計畫包含原來的計畫但是有新增的金錢在去年8月就已經提出了去年8月就已經來立法院了去年8月到現在有幾個月請大家自己算一算"},{"start":2969.053,"end":2983.401,"text":"沒有說什麼新興計畫還要再另外提出的這是史無前例的要求所有的一個政府的預算一整包去年8月就躺在立法院等著審查一直到現在都沒有審查"},{"start":2984.554,"end":3009.431,"text":"另外更重要的就是國防預算國防的這個預算的特別條例8年1.25兆這個現在是連條例都不給審是把條例擋在現在的程序委員會剛剛說是因為總統沒有軍人的加薪我告訴大家國民黨完全執政的時候8年幫國軍加了一次8年幫國軍加了一次"},{"start":3010.322,"end":3022.618,"text":"我們現在完全執政八年之後到現在雖然國會是由國民黨跟民眾黨佔多數但加起來九年總共加了四次到底是誰在欺負軍人"},{"start":3023.732,"end":3045.771,"text":"大家不要忘記今天所有的這些薪水的調整都涉及到整個政府的財政的紀律跟預算所以這個本身就是行政權的一環行政權會針對每一年不管是針對物價不管是針對繁重的業務針對不同的情形一步一步往下交薪一步一步往下調薪"},{"start":3047.012,"end":3066.787,"text":"所以大家可以看到現在是針對戰鬥部隊但是戰鬥部隊也有可能不足為什麼因為並不是所有的都已經進入到佳績一般做行政的會不會也會辛苦也會需要加薪這就是逐步一直不斷的調整根據我們現在的收入根據我們的結構一步一步調整"},{"start":3067.688,"end":3094.101,"text":"行政權現在是按部就班的在這幾年不斷的幫軍人加薪我們不會說這是完美的但是我們是一直往這個方向邁進希望我們能夠讓軍人留營但另外一方面不是只有加薪才能夠保障軍人軍人更需要的是什麼更需要的是好的裝備需要的是好的武器需要的是好的訓練如果沒有這些東西的話光是加薪水不足以保障我們的國軍"},{"start":3095.362,"end":3107.917,"text":"但大家看到沒有不要說這一次今年的國防預算條例跟總預算光是去年的總預算因為拖到3月有多少的案子就因為這樣延宕這個延宕會不會影響到國軍的訓練會不會影響到國軍的後勤"},{"start":3110.76,"end":3136.094,"text":"所以我們是每一個層面都必須要來照顧國軍當我們在講說我們要買更好的武器跟裝備的時候國民黨就只能說軍人加薪我們說我們要更好的防空系統的時候他說要軍人加薪我們說要更好的福利的時候他說要軍人加薪我們說管理制度要改革的時候他說要軍人加薪我們說要充實更好的油跟其他國家更好的訓練他們說要軍人加薪"},{"start":3136.814,"end":3164.574,"text":"結果我們有沒有做軍人加薪有 我們已經做了軍人加薪但我們還做了剛剛所有其他我正在講的這些事項國民黨有意要討論這些事情嗎這一次的國防預算特別條例不就是有防空系統的堅實嗎不是就是有無人載具嗎不是就是有F16V後續的訓練嗎不是還有更重要的我們現在還不足的彈藥嗎為什麼連審都不審如果對於內容對於預算的內容有疑義就進入到國防外交委員會啊"},{"start":3165.795,"end":3168.078,"text":"現在不進入國防外交委員會就算了還可以出國審出國討論國防"},{"start":3170.854,"end":3194.299,"text":"我們現在國防外交委員會一直在等著我們這些錢到底能不能夠先定下來之後根據這幾個大項目國防部就可以來報告可以告訴大家這些大項目的內容是什麼國防外交的委員有疑義的時候都可以針對這個來做刪減不是嗎所以講到底根本就是怎樣根本就不是在關心國軍藍白現在是不敢審國防預算"},{"start":3195.939,"end":3218.914,"text":"為什麼不敢審因為一旦審了之後大家在直播就會看到他們在砍國防預算的嘴臉看到他們在欺負軍人的嘴臉所以他們只好現在在程序委員會假裝假意的用違憲的方式一直喊著軍人加薪這四個字要掩蓋自己不敢審國防預算的事實用這樣的一個方式到這邊來造謠然後每一次我們都要再上來再闢謠一次浪費大家的時間浪費納稅人的薪水莫此為生謝謝"},{"start":3225.049,"end":3254.211,"text":"好 我們報告事項跟執行事項我們就等這個討論事項宣讀及發言完畢之後我們再並進行處理那現在請宣讀討論事項討論事項一 復議不通過予以刪除二 國軍老舊眷村改建條例修正草案三 公共電視法修正草案四至六 公職人員選舉罷免法修正草案七至十 院會通過予以刪除十一 農民退休儲金條例修正草案十二 農業科技園區設置管理條例"},{"start":3255.689,"end":3273.801,"text":"草案 增訂條文草案十三 農產品市場交易法修正草案 宣讀完畢好 那我們現在請登記員發言 首先請登記第一位范委員發言我們一樣在范委員發言完畢的時候 接著發言登記"},{"start":3279.903,"end":3290.672,"text":"針對第十一屆第四會期第十八次會議議程討論事項 建請限列下表實案是否有當盡情公決 提案人范雲 民主進步黨立法院黨團好 我們現在先請議事委員代表宣讀"},{"start":3300.768,"end":3320.73,"text":"本院民主金融黨立法院黨團針對第十一屆第四會期第十八次會議議程討論事項建請限列下表示案是否當進行公決一本院台灣民眾黨黨團針對第十一屆第四會期第二次會議報告事項第29案院會所作之決定提出附議請公決案二本院民進黨黨團建請院會做成決議如下一"},{"start":3321.351,"end":3347.105,"text":"1.中國在我國周邊發動軍事演習表達追人力譴責2.持續推動相關國安法制建設確保國家安全3.呼籲國際社會正視中國威權主義對外擴張之風險請供決案3.本院民進黨黨團建請院會作成決議針對程旭文會組黨一案排入院會議事請本院韓院長召集黨團協商請供決案4.香港法修正草案5.交通部公路局組織法修正草案"},{"start":3348.205,"end":3376.648,"text":"交通部高速公路局組織法修正查案交通部航港局組織法修正查案農業科技援軍設置管理條例增訂條文查案農產品市場交易法修正查案宣讀完畢好 我們登記委員都已經發言完畢那我們現在進行處理我們現在先處理這個報告事項這個提議 先提案先處理那請問對於范雲委員的提案有無異議"},{"start":3378.442,"end":3397.842,"text":"好有異議我們來進行表決請新年在場人數好贊成范雲委員提案的請舉手好反對的人請舉手"},{"start":3407.042,"end":3422.915,"text":"好表決結果在場18人贊成者8人反對者10人贊成者少數不通過那我們就繼續處理盧縣議委員的提案請問針對盧委員的提案有異議有異議我們來進行表決請清點在場人數好贊成盧縣議委員提案的請舉手"},{"start":3436.889,"end":3463.636,"text":"好 反對盧縣議員提案的請舉手好 表決結果在場18人 贊成者10人 反對者8人 贊成者多數通過那我們就將本次的議程草案提報院會處理那我們接下來要繼續處理本會期第三次全院委員會的議程請宣讀全院委員會的議程草案"},{"start":3464.778,"end":3491.127,"text":"立法院第十一屆第四會期第三次全院委員會議事日程草案 時間中華民國一百一十五年一月二十二日星期三一月二十二日星期四上午九十至下午六十地點本院議場 報告事項一 宣讀本院第十一屆第四會期第二次全院委員會議事錄 討論事項一 本院委員傅坤祺等六十人對賴慶德總統行政院院長卓榮泰迴憲亂政之行徑提出最嚴厲之譴責"},{"start":3493.088,"end":3515.411,"text":"對賴清德總統拒絕公佈財政收支劃分法之嚴重違憲失職行為依據中華民國憲法徵求條文第四條第七項之規定對總統賴清德提出彈劾案請供決案二本人為黃國昌等五十九人有見於被彈劾人賴清德總統對立法院三讀通過經行政院附議失敗之財政收支劃分法透過行政院院長以不附屬之方式配合"},{"start":3515.771,"end":3537.435,"text":"不依中華民國憲法第七十二條規定公佈違憲失職 原依中華民國憲法徵求條文第四條第七項及立法院職權行使法規定對賴清德總統提出彈劾案 請供決案 宣讀完畢現在我們請登記委員發言 首先請登記第一位盧委員現役發言我們在盧委員現役發言完畢的時候截止發言登記"},{"start":3543.148,"end":3545.93,"text":"好 那登記員發言完畢我們現在就處理盧憲義委員的提案請問針對盧憲義委員的提案有無異議好有沒有異議"},{"start":3571.653,"end":3597.433,"text":"有有好有有有意義好有意義我們我們就好有意義我們就進行表決了那請清點在場人數好贊成盧縣議員提案的請舉手好反對盧縣議員提案的請舉手"},{"start":3605.165,"end":3629.221,"text":"好 表決結果在場十八人 贊成者十人 反對者八人 贊成者多數通過我們第四會期第三次全院委員會的議程就通過那接下來請宣讀人民請願案人民請願案 依立法院執行法例六十五條規定 寒轉機關除以者共六案 宣讀完畢好 請問有無異議沒有 沒有異議 我們通過 請問有無臨時動議"},{"start":3631.192,"end":3634.778,"text":"沒有沒有我們本次會議進行到此為止現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"167101","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167101","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c0fb3c39ba2025b2c45b1348774ba1db5df4004652dac491c3aa586ce65d76c849987ba386f8b6b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"12:30:02 - 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宜蘭 台南的大學輻射醫院都會受到影響"},{"start":91.681,"end":98.385,"text":"以國立大學為例我們看到有22.4億的經費是要拿來讓國立大專院校的老舊校舍能夠申請改建整修因為總預算沒有辦法通過教育部連公告都沒有公告所以他會影響大學師生的安全跟教育品質我服務的新竹縣受傷慘重為什麼因為竹竹苗的增班計畫教育部答應了結果"},{"start":121.537,"end":146.759,"text":"參班計畫是新增計畫他有1.2億完全沒有辦法執行到116年度可能會有近2000名學生無效可讀竹竹苗有超過20間學校的校舍興建整建也連帶受到影響尤其是國立的高中預算100%受到影響我要念給大家有竹東高中 關西高中 陽明交大附中"},{"start":147.259,"end":164.473,"text":"新竹時中 新竹高中 新竹高工 新竹高商 竹南高中當然還有其他我們有念到的我想請問幾位新竹縣選出來的請你們告訴你們的同事徐欣盈 林思明 還有竹市的鄭振前"},{"start":165.174,"end":179.466,"text":"你們能夠對這些 你們當年也宣稱不是當年 去年宣稱一起爭取 結果到現在因為你們不審總預算可能有2000名足限 足足苗的學生會無效可讀 因為就是增班的問題"},{"start":180.765,"end":204.8,"text":"再來我要告訴大家醫院也會受到影響因為國立大學這邊輻射醫院基金新增16.3億 佔56.5億的三分之一等於是增加40.5%台大醫院的新竹分院會受到影響 又是新竹成功大學醫院的輻射醫院專門拿來做老人醫院跟高齡的計畫也會受到影響還有"},{"start":206.101,"end":213.347,"text":"陽明交大附設醫院的第二期擴建計畫他在哪裡在蘭陽因為蘭陽人口老化所以他要發展強化長照偏鄉醫療那這也會受到影響你們的全程要選宜蘭縣長的人為什麼不站出來為什麼要阻撓宜蘭台南跟新竹的醫療的發展特別是照顧偏鄉的最後我要講國防預算"},{"start":232.384,"end":239.693,"text":"今天如果你們今天不審定議程週五又封殺就是第八次封殺我們的國防預算這已經不是台灣的議題了世界都在看我們看到AIT處長古立言他說什麼"},{"start":247.702,"end":267.332,"text":"他說和平與對話必須與嚇阻共存提出國防預算是透過嚇阻來提升和平的重要一步如果你不相信美國那我們看到歐洲議會友台小組的主席Michael Gallagher他前天說什麼提高國防預算有其不要"},{"start":268.052,"end":291.813,"text":"不應淪為政黨操作的工具朝野應該團結一致否則中國一定很高興法國的參議員太多人已經講了黃國昌在此時此刻宣稱出訪美國為了國防預算我想請他民眾黨不要捨盡求遠今天的新聞告訴我們華府資深人士說美方希望民眾黨"},{"start":293.734,"end":316.153,"text":"秉除黨派旗艦在國防及安全事務上展現台灣一致對外所以今天我們所有的民進黨的程序委員在這邊再次呼籲藍白時間是台灣不可逆的資源無論是孩子的教育或是台灣的防衛責任請不要再阻擋總預算跟我們的國防預算特別條例以上"}]}},{"id":"17196","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17196","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0887255d90a3546e073fc5bef4fbee4990a219bd209750d2dfe2eed97515bd4405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-13T09:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院黨團協商（事由：一、研商「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案」案。二、研商「公共電視法第十六條及第四十九條條文修正草案」等案。三、研商「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案」、「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案」及「公職人員選舉罷免法第三十二條及第四十三條條文修正草案」等3案。）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-13T09:01:21+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-13T10:50:00+08:00","duration":6519,"影片長度":"01:48:39","委員發言時間":"09:01:21 - 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謝謝時間已到 謝謝各位黨團幹部今天列一起來參與我們今天參與協商我們上週院會黨團共事進行共有三個題目第一國軍老舊眷村改建條例修正案第二題是公共電視法修正案第三題是公職人員選舉罷免法修正案我們依序從第一題開始首先要介紹所有列席的官員我們歡迎國防部"},{"start":1749.749,"end":1764.279,"text":"徐副部長 歡迎您政治作戰局市局長 歡迎您法務部廖參事 謝謝 歡迎您行政院主計總署陳世察 歡迎您好 謝謝我們進入第一案"},{"start":1772.624,"end":1799.33,"text":"延商本院羅志強委員等24位凝聚國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案那今天黃國昌總召出國傅坤吉總召有事情趕不過來柯建民總召正在路上我想時間一到我們不再等候我們邊開會邊等首先我們請國民黨團羅志強書記稍待柯總召到了"},{"start":1800.898,"end":1812.807,"text":"稍等 稍等柯文昭來 請你年輕時候外號叫草上飛啊現在動作越來越慢了好 請羅志強委員 請發言"},{"start":1815.497,"end":1842.783,"text":"主席各位委員還有我們國防部列席的官員第一輪發言我有一些基礎資訊想要再次的請教國防部過去一年多國防部多次告訴本席按照這次卷改條例第三條的修正內容受影響的只有十人八村的五十戶眷戶沒有其他的對不對"},{"start":1844.5,"end":1871.46,"text":"沒錯嘛是 國安部長可以直接跟羅委員在直接現場謝謝您的正面回應只有慈恩八村的50戶眷戶所以這次眷改條例的修正當然就不包括所謂的已經改建完成的成功國宅 大安國宅也就是像大安新村 建南新村建國新村 復台一村 電生二村等等已經完成改建的國宅 是不是"},{"start":1873.451,"end":1901.334,"text":"沒錯嘛是謝謝我要非常感謝國防部的澄清樓下的記者會包括金明聯最近一直在造謠說這次修法過了政府要幫在大安區坐擁京華地段的國宅屋主包括成功國宅大安國宅大安新村建南新村建國新村復台一村電生二村進行"},{"start":1901.954,"end":1926.868,"text":"免費的房屋重建要投入大量的國家資源讓千萬富翁變成億萬富翁謝謝國防部這根本就是公然的造謠國防部剛好已經再次的確認只有十人八村的五十戶是遷移不是改建我再幫國防部說一次"},{"start":1928.018,"end":1947.444,"text":"按照這次卷改條例修正的內容受影響只有18村50戶建戶不包括成功國宅 大安國宅也不包括這些造謠團體說的什麼大安新村 建南新村建國新村 復台一村 電生二村還有他們造謠是全國的國宅全部要免費重建"},{"start":1948.53,"end":1971.023,"text":"天大的謠言 鄭重的澄清我要告訴這些法盲的律師 《眷改條例》所稱的老舊眷村是指在中華民國69年12月31日以前興建完成的軍眷住宅 而且要具有四項情形政府興建分配 中華婦女反共聯合會捐款興建"},{"start":1971.923,"end":1998.288,"text":"政府提供土地由眷戶自費興建其他經主管機關認定者是者其一我就以他們造謠成功國宅為例成功國宅適用的是被廢止的國民住宅條例它已經不是眷村了根本不會在這一次的修法當中受到影響那接下來第二件事情我要告訴大家它是遷移不是改建"},{"start":1999.554,"end":2012.59,"text":"我們的國防部已經幫慈仁八村等27個村子蓋好了房舍了嘛 對不對蓋好了啊 答對啊 是啊直接回答 沒問題是不是 對 為了營銷進行會議請不能這樣說 你先講一下"},{"start":2019.033,"end":2039.622,"text":"副部長你等一下可以先來說好沒關係好沒關係我直接講我直接講好等一下發言好嗎好直接講你們後面的一排點頭副部長你今天是有壓力嗎後面的一排在點頭不是不是這個還是要清楚的講好沒關係待會我讓你講待會讓你講你先講完以後我們講完以後我講完以後沒關係好來我來講繼續講好繼續講好沒關係我要講萬龍新社早就蓋好了"},{"start":2048.769,"end":2074.735,"text":"照國防部說法 萬榮新社的這一部分關於所謂慈恩八尊遷過去 政府花了五億十五年前就花了然後蓋在那裡每年一千兩百萬維護管理費養蚊子十五年請問有沒有花到快兩億然後更重要的是繼續空著未來十年二十年每年一億兩千萬十年一億兩千萬 二十年就是兩億四千萬"},{"start":2078.018,"end":2102.75,"text":"維護管理費一直花下去就是個無底洞然後再來你可以看到基本上我們過去這將近兩年的時間我跟國防部溝通慈仁八村沒有辦法牽進去是因為發生了一個國防部的疏失這疏失可以歸咎國防部內部也已經進行懲處了但是為什麼要慈仁八村來扛這個疏失就卡住他們沒有辦法牽過去"},{"start":2104.622,"end":2107.175,"text":"那建設也蓋好了那再來就是說"},{"start":2108.422,"end":2132.389,"text":"事實上你可以看到這慈恩八村如果遷過去之後會產生什麼樣的一個效應第一個歷史工業被徹底解決慈恩八村沒有必要為了國防部疏失繼續卡在那邊原地空轉20年30年永遠無限的卡下去歷史工業得以解決第二個萬榮新社已經蓋好的那個不要每年花1200萬養蚊子要養個20年30年40年"},{"start":2136.77,"end":2158.316,"text":"而且萬榮新社你繼續讓他空著房子會壞掉的嘛會壞掉的嘛第三個慈仁八村縣子可以讓國防部活化就可以提供作為植物宿舍國防部也規劃作為植物宿舍啊那這種三贏的局面我也跟主席報告跟大家報告過去這兩年我不是一次跟國防部講我沒有要修法"},{"start":2159.249,"end":2179.096,"text":"我沒有要修法我請國防部告訴我你怎麼解決這歷史公義怎麼解決這三輸的困境怎麼樣達到三贏的局面國防部直到12月31號還跟我講說他們再來努力看看上個禮拜我請教國防部你來跟我講什麼沒有修法沒辦法解決啦直接給我這個結論結束了啦"},{"start":2181.294,"end":2195.133,"text":"那我今天修這個法律讓國防部三贏到底是哪裡不對啊 造謠造成說全台的國宅全部都要改建要花幾千億要改建有這樣造謠的方式嗎所以 沒有關係今天齁"},{"start":2196.654,"end":2221.023,"text":"羅志強扛這個謠言啦但是該做的事就要做嘛照國防部說法很簡單今天討論就是十人八村這眷戶的五十戶我提出解決方案那我就要問國防部修法以外你過去兩年給我什麼解決方案連上次政黨協商包括民進黨代表我也謝謝也認為這歷史共業要解決但你們反對修法你們認為國防部要來解決但國防部就跟我講解決不了啊"},{"start":2221.943,"end":2231.588,"text":"他就跟我們講 他解決不了啊以上 謝謝好 謝謝羅志祥委員發言慢慢請民進黨團發言 台灣民眾黨團請準備剛才看羅志祥委員一副禮物氣有狀這個 蔡委員關子你剛才講說 今年們那個公然 今年公然造謠可是你現在是公然違法"},{"start":2253.081,"end":2275.41,"text":"十年八孫本來就不是建城 建城給人家換床啊他又不是建村啊你修改建海條例 要來去讓他滿足這個這已經構成貪污之類的條例 土地罪啊檢察官可以按土所計啊 不可以不慎啊這非常嚴重的事情啊整個十年八孫已經行政訴訟 已經都輸了他走懷土地 他都輸了"},{"start":2280.348,"end":2295.557,"text":"現在就好比說 失憲大法官已經釋出來了我沒有在立法院裡面再開議會不承認這個 一樣的意思嘛我看不出來兩件事 立法院如果說就不像人這樣怎麼可以讓法院亂套 立法院是無憲的權威"},{"start":2303.809,"end":2332.211,"text":"所以 樓上委員你不推了這台車人改革台詞我都能夠體會人是要在法院交過在法院交過上來做這個事情的你完全自己講話完全在矛盾嘛執行執行八順是不是見改換錯根本不是啊你一直要委員國安部國安部怎麼可能和你一起去換貪污罪條例啊那整個都是人都抓光光了"},{"start":2333.616,"end":2359.052,"text":"兩萬可以暗讀手記的啊所以我今天在這裡很慎重的講要為了一個個案為了一個民間的一個個案去修法這不是圖利什麼叫圖利呢我不相信民眾黨敢去跟這樣一個很簡單的法律邏輯大家看不清楚嗎所以我今天在這裡很慎重的講"},{"start":2360.6,"end":2386.956,"text":"沒通啦不要再這樣搞了啦不要共產黨違法你不急就氣得流水就撞可實在啊 實在啊謝謝柯建民總召麻煩台灣民眾黨團請發言官方部請準備我支持羅志強委員剛剛的慷慨激昂跟理直氣壯不是理不直氣不壯我也支持剛剛柯總召提的要解決問題啦"},{"start":2388.633,"end":2414.498,"text":"既然這個慈仁八村志強提的是一個三贏的方案所以我們強烈支持就是說一彎妹今天是提這個法提這個法看起來是一個手段這段時間這兩年事實上我的了解一直有溝通今天副部長也來了相關的單位也來了看能不能幫慈光八村解決這個問題好不好這是民眾黨明確的這個表態 謝謝等一下 陳進一下好 請一句話請繼續發言"},{"start":2417.799,"end":2422.161,"text":"主席我可以補充一下嗎剛剛是羅士強委員說在黨團協商的時候民進黨有委員說要解決問題"},{"start":2447.772,"end":2453.247,"text":"張啟凱剛剛是這樣是羅志強先說但是總召剛剛從頭到尾都沒有說要解決問題我痛之以歡是羅志強說的"},{"start":2456.482,"end":2460.586,"text":"我們所了解的柯總召都是在幫忙解決問題但對事情有不同的看法請國防部長請"},{"start":2480.006,"end":2504.753,"text":"謝謝院長 我先請我們政戰局局長說明如果有需要我再補充 謝謝好 請 石局長請主席 各位委員 國安部報告本部建議維持現行的條文 兩點的說明第一點 本案已經在一百零四年間經最高行政法院判決定驗不符合圈改條例的規定第二點說明 圈改基金"},{"start":2505.473,"end":2533.138,"text":"到去年114年11月已經累積短出1050億元上有529億不適用的營地周轉金代繳還國庫修法通過將增加眷改基金的負擔綜上基於法律的安定性以及眷改工作的一致性與公平性本部建議維持現行條文 以上好 羅志強委員請發言 鍾佳斌委員請準備"},{"start":2537.662,"end":2563.171,"text":"也可以請國防部再說明一下你15年前的5億已經花下去了然後你每年1200萬的維護管理費15年你花了多少 請國防部說明一下未來那個地方還是會繼續空著空10年 空20年 你要再花多少維護管理費然後再來 你說要再花錢 請問花在哪裡你不要跟我講那5億花下去了你說未來還要再花錢 你已經跟我講沒有了"},{"start":2563.991,"end":2584.203,"text":"你先過去 慈仁八村還要再付一億所以我抱歉 我少講一營 四營因為慈仁八村的捐貨還要再付一億過去所以回頭還是一件事情剛剛你講法院的判決 法院判決的原因是什麼你本來按照捐改條例 你去蓋了27個村子慈仁八村放在裡面"},{"start":2585.063,"end":2602.173,"text":"結果慈恩八孫因為過戶太慢後來你們國防部內部有疏失有人檢舉認為說這些眷戶可能不符合因為按照時間上他認為他不符合所以最後你們把慈恩八孫扣在那個地方房子都蓋好了 蚊子繼續養維護管理費繼續花"},{"start":2604.778,"end":2633.527,"text":"那今天為什麼今天做解套因為你解決不了這個三書的困境嘛所以我們改動期間嘛期間改動就是把最後一戶倦改留下的一個所謂的歷史公益的尾聲解決嘛所以才幫你補足法律的一個漏洞嘛否則你告訴我嘛你今天萬榮興盛你到底要放一百年還是兩百年放到它倒塌爛掉為止嗎每年一千兩百年繼續花下去嗎那你剛剛跟我講倦改基金賠了千億請問跟此人發生什麼關係啊"},{"start":2635.719,"end":2644.902,"text":"18歲你已經花了你那5億已經蓋了他搬過去還要再還1億回來然後你還少每年少1200萬你光這30年40年下來5億也有了啦"},{"start":2649.355,"end":2674.441,"text":"所以我幫國防部努力的解決問題那也是因為國防部過去這兩年跟我溝通就已經跟我講你沒有解決的辦法嘛你只能放著萬農新社繼續養蚊子然後繼續毀壞繼續爛掉你只能放著慈恩八村繼續掉半島掉到那邊動彈不得你只能放著你的植物宿舍永遠遙遙無期沒辦法用那50戶來做植物宿舍嘛我提三營的方案 四營的方案就是幫國防部解決問題啊 以上好 嘉賓兄請發言"},{"start":2679.525,"end":2701.96,"text":"好謝謝那個羅委員製造出來的問題我們很困難幫你解決因為錯的事情沒有辦法透過其他方式把它做對那我還是請大家看一下國防部的資料如果國防部的資料大家都肯認的話我們請看國防部資料的第3頁他的修正條文底下的第2點OK好那麼"},{"start":2703.496,"end":2731.567,"text":"我這樣說 其實根據我手上的資料目前全國的住宅的平均屋齡是34年在台北地區慈仁八村的大安區是41年台北市整個住宅的年限是39年那請問慈仁八村目前的年限是幾年36年 36年他是在民國78年的50戶他就交給聯勤總司令部來列管"},{"start":2733.312,"end":2756.133,"text":"78年落成 請問一下什麼時候被列入了國軍老舊眷村改建計畫85年11月78年年底蓋好的房子才經過了7年的時間居然就可以在行政院85年核定的這個老舊眷村改建計畫列進去"},{"start":2757.472,"end":2778.151,"text":"匪夷所思啊 蓋好了8年不到 應該嚴格講7年他就被列入了一個老舊眷村 多老啊78年蓋好 85年列入那因此呢 才會有在99年的時候有人去檢舉99年距離池仁巴村蓋好也不過21年"},{"start":2779.873,"end":2803.343,"text":"那個時候就檢舉說這個不能夠列入因為跟我們的眷改條例要在民國70年之前完工若成的不符那因此這個後來就開始查了查當年為什麼會把慈仁八村列入島舊眷村改建的計畫後來怎麼做後來經過了103年國防部自己去懲處了當時的業務負責人"},{"start":2807.247,"end":2825.75,"text":"表示什麼表示在85年行政院把它列入老舊眷村改建計畫這個程序是有問題的怎麼可能在85年把一個78年建好的東西列入老舊眷村呢所以才會因此因為做了這樣的懲處認定之後在104年台北高等行政法院就駁回了這個訴訟"},{"start":2827.311,"end":2847.973,"text":"然後在一百零 所以這個司法上的認定就完全的支持了當時把它列入老舊捐存改建是一個違反了當時的行政處置的作為然後在一百零五年的時候的四月一百零五年 我用個日期大家比較熟悉 二零一六年"},{"start":2849.074,"end":2876.872,"text":"那時候還是馬英九總統的時候那麼大法官決議呢就不受理這個釋憲的申請所以不管什麼樣的一個理由在2016年105年之前4月之前包括大法官包括高等行政法院都很清楚的認定這個案子當年在85年列入國軍老舊眷村改建計畫可能有人謀不章啊從開始就是不對的事情"},{"start":2877.492,"end":2904.542,"text":"开始就是不对的事情难道要个案修法来把它变成对吗所以我们继续看到了什么时候呢在了105年5月的时候马英九在卸任前行政院急急忙忙的要把这个修法个案修法把它送到立法院来审议马英九总统任命的大法官都透过视线认为不可以了驳回了当时的高等行政法院判决确定不可以了"},{"start":2905.966,"end":2920.894,"text":"敗訴了然後才動到在政權交替之前要通過修法行政院在105年的5月急急忙忙的送了一個法案可能就是目前羅委員的版本就送出來了"},{"start":2921.926,"end":2941.381,"text":"送到立法院之後呢 可沒多久呢 就是因為2016年嘛 520之後就由蔡英文總統接任了所以那時候呢 行政院還請立法院撤回本案所以看得出來 這個案子行政院包括國防部當時造下錯因的 是國防部當時負責業務的承辦人"},{"start":2943.402,"end":2965.665,"text":"後來經過法院經過憲法法庭那時候是大法官的解釋都不可以這樣做還不惜透過520之前行政院送的這個法案然後又撤回所以到今天我們不是在解決這慈仁八村眷戶的問題是在解決一開始"},{"start":2966.243,"end":2986.959,"text":"因為公務員可能涉及到有違法的部分將他錯誤的列入了眷改計畫給予了這個住戶一個期待說他們呢一個房子落成了七年就可以列入老舊眷村改建的計畫匪夷所思啊然後在105年政黨輪替之前又做了這種動作"},{"start":2988.479,"end":3005.168,"text":"那現在呢好不容易羅志強委員現在看到藍白可以掌握立法院的多數又想要個案的修法把在105年被行政院撤回的案子拿出來重新提一遍行政院現在哪有立場說要通過這個法案沒有立場啊"},{"start":3006.314,"end":3033.488,"text":"大法官事先也駁回啦高等行政法院說敗訴啦最高刑啊對不起最高刑最高行政法院都敗訴啦那行政院哪有可能提這個法案呢所以只有國民黨羅委員當然為了選民的服務到現在隔了這麼久了他的屋齡也36年了從當時的7年的屋齡要列入老舊捐存改建到現在36年還比當時當地大安區的42年還要年輕的"},{"start":3035.209,"end":3054.419,"text":"這樣的一個建設你要說他是老舊那其他大安區其他的霧林超過40年的豈不都跳腳說他都老舊了那我們算什麼他都可以用國家的錢來幫他改建了那我們大安區其他霧林超過40年的是不是政府要幫我們免費督更啊這是一個社會公平正義的問題啊"},{"start":3055.819,"end":3077.857,"text":"所以我還是覺得說 個案修法期期以為不可大法官的視線寫在那裡最高刑的判決寫在那裡我們也希望行政院要堅持立場不錯的事情不可能用事後不對的方法來補正好 謝謝鍾嘉斌委員的發言國安部徐副部長還要補充嗎總政治作戰部要補充嗎 請"},{"start":3079.66,"end":3093.835,"text":"報告沒有謝謝各位黨團幹部我想我們做一下宣告如果各位同意的話因為我們沒有辦法達成共識所以我建議說兩個結論第一第三條我們保留院會進行處理第二"},{"start":3094.696,"end":3115.372,"text":"本案院會處理的時候廣泛討論由各黨團推派一位來進行發言逐條討論及三讀完成之後均不再發言逐條的時候依黨團版本先後進行表決各黨的幹部有意見嗎沒有意見好 我們第一案我們就非常謝謝國防部跟相關部會列席非常感謝 謝謝"},{"start":3117.714,"end":3121.984,"text":"我們進入第二題 公共電視法修正案教育委員會請"},{"start":3152.212,"end":3160.314,"text":"謝謝各黨團幹部請坐列席的官員好謝謝謝謝好謝謝各位黨團幹部報告黨團幹部我們現在進行第二案延商主題為延商"},{"start":3173.786,"end":3202.214,"text":"公共電視法第16條及第49條條文修正草案今天我們列席的有文化部理部長 歡迎您還有法務部廖參事 您還沒回去啊歡迎您 好 謝謝今天有兩位影視及流行音樂發展師吳司長 歡迎您影視及流行音樂發展師 客長吳客長 歡迎 好 謝謝本案由"},{"start":3204.265,"end":3221.119,"text":"臺灣民眾黨團及羅志強委員等16位委員提案分別在114年11月14日、11月21日經本院第11屆第4會及第9次及第10次院會作成決議,近乎二讀與相關提案並按寫商,並由臺灣民眾黨團負責召集寫商"},{"start":3225.955,"end":3247.335,"text":"本案於114年12月18日由台灣民眾黨團總召黃國昌委員召集一次協商但是當日遺憾協商並沒有結果我們沒有辦法達成共識現在我們依照條文順序討論修正條文請提案的台灣民眾黨團表達意見提案的委員羅志強委員請準備"},{"start":3250.305,"end":3278.057,"text":"今天這個重要的改革是要解決萬年委員跟萬年董監事的問題事實上我們之前NCC的委員跟公平會的委員都已經完成修法了這是第三個重要的提案而且事實上公視的基金會董監事的言論問題非常嚴重連監察院都已經提出調查報告了"},{"start":3278.737,"end":3303.751,"text":"他在第五屆的時候由第四屆就是委員是由第四屆去延任的延任了19個人延任時間多長將近1000天高達968天第六屆又由第五屆來延任了15個人延任了58天現在更嚴重的就是這一屆了現在的第七屆有17位延任"},{"start":3304.813,"end":3323.342,"text":"延任多久 已經快三年了所以第一個基於法例的這個我們剛剛講它已經是第三個改革了NCC已經完成了公平會已經完成了那第二個公視的這個基金會董監事這個延任又比另外兩個委員會更嚴重這再變成了一個看守的董監事會"},{"start":3324.639,"end":3350.395,"text":"董監事會時間拉得太長所以要做重大的決策跟人事決策就變成比較消極而且跟民眾也沒辦法好交代所以今天我們明確的要求趕快把這個萬年條款拿掉就是以後如果沒有通過的不能夠由原來的委員委員任期到了就必須要下來不能夠一直在延任 謝謝好 謝謝提案台灣民眾黨團張綺凱委員發言接下來我們請羅志強委員發言民進黨團請準備"},{"start":3353.339,"end":3369.627,"text":"我覺得公共電視應該也要感謝我們跟民眾黨的提案為什麼呢這一屆的公視的董監事他已經距離他該提出名單的期限已經"},{"start":3372.108,"end":3393.218,"text":"遲誤了將近一年的時間一年的時間不提該提名單不提然後讓現在的公司的董監事理所當然的繼續做下去繼續延任下去原因是什麼就是因為這個有這個無限延任條款為什麼今天我說公司要感謝我們"},{"start":3394.372,"end":3410.789,"text":"自從羅志強跟民眾黨我們提出來這個所謂的刪除你今天擺爛延任的條款之後公司董監事名單終於出來啦出來啦不修這個法律你部長你還繼續睡啦我告訴你"},{"start":3412.573,"end":3437.808,"text":"請問是在我們提出修法之後你才提名單在提出修法之前提名單所以我覺得公視文化部要謝謝我們沒有稍微給大家一點輿論的一個壓力你就擺明的仰仗著這個言論條款繼續擺爛嘛部長你就在那邊擺爛嘛講白了就這麼一回事所以沒辦法有一個擺爛的文化部我們只有仿小人的條款出來啊"},{"start":3439.71,"end":3459.344,"text":"只能把這延任的條款做檢討我算是比較客氣的跟部長說我說如果規則與你不提名單那就不得延任你提名單了所以這個問題不存在但我支持民眾黨要徹底解決這個問題就直接把延任條款拿掉以上"},{"start":3459.724,"end":3485.056,"text":"好 謝謝 民進黨團發言之後麻煩請文化部李部長準備發言好嗎好 請民進黨 請剛才聽樓志強委員 張熙來委員講算遺憾在國會電腦裡面一派復原何來百案條款啊根本沒有百案嘛還如果再成功說因為你提出這個實質化公司改改改法同天是要出城那有沒有導致啊"},{"start":3486.963,"end":3516.132,"text":"沒有這回事情嘛大家不要這樣用你的哪個麥克風可以然後亂講一通這齊齊不可啊這沒有所謂萬人懂電視的問題都不是那很清楚一個事情啊公共電視它本來就是這樣啊你只要用這個刪除延任條款的話公司沒有辦法讓的嘛每一家公司都如此啊"},{"start":3517.484,"end":3540.04,"text":"時間到把它全部下台公司裡面平時都沒有 空的這怎麼可能啊所以我希望就是說大家講話要照道理來講不要拿起來就部長那裡亂罵一通亂罵部長一通 這不好啦老人家賺錢好不好好 謝謝柯建民總召的發言麻煩請李部長請"},{"start":3542.369,"end":3558.847,"text":"好 謝謝各位給我一點時間我有四點聲明第一就是我們那個萬年董事這個名稱我覺得非常不好他跟萬年國會是不一樣萬年國會他們有領薪水萬年董事是沒有領薪水他們是志工"},{"start":3559.648,"end":3582.615,"text":"他們背負著這個萬年董事的罵名繼續為公民的公視付出他們其實很不想再繼續做所以他們也發出了一個聲明說趕快希望我們提出新的名單第一個我是為他們證明第二個剛剛民眾黨也提到說他為什麼會變成萬年董事的原因不是因為沒有延任條款"},{"start":3583.695,"end":3610.407,"text":"而是每一次在選任的時候不斷地被推翻所以剛剛講到的我跟各位回顧一下第四屆2010年開始968天第五屆58天第六屆967天第七屆就是現在前面的每一天都不是因為董事會不肯換是一次一次刪掉一次一次刪掉所以我在"},{"start":3611.979,"end":3634.677,"text":"這個3的過程中 到了我這一屆的時候我等於背負了歷史的功業第三點 就是我曾經求大家能不能在我這一任的時候 恩恩怨怨結束因為剛好今年7月1號是公共廣播集團20週年了可不可以在今年 當我推出名單以後大家好好的審查 讓它過"},{"start":3636.258,"end":3661.288,"text":"二十年的公共廣播集團不斷地增加新的頻道我必須承認很多新的頻道各自面臨不同的問題事實上很多問題是一開始就存在的像華視這樣子像台灣plus這樣它一存在的問題就開始並不是我們這一任的董事很差所以這一點我懇求大家在這一次的"},{"start":3662.769,"end":3681.487,"text":"我承認是我的錯我推不出來可是我推不出來的原因就是歷史共業沒有人願意在這個情況下被大家一直罵一直刪掉第四我很慶幸我終於提出一個名單我自己覺得這個名單其實非常經得起考驗有一半的"},{"start":3682.908,"end":3706.875,"text":"組成是用原來的繼任的名單裡面是原來的董監事因為原來董監事是在三年前大家都共同贊成他做董監事的結果各位知道答案就是果然一模一樣的重演過去的悲劇在最後一天我提出來14個人被刪掉10個只剩4個"},{"start":3708.462,"end":3720.177,"text":"我覺得悲劇要開始重演的原因就是我很快會再煮第二次我很快再煮第二次的時候如果煮不成我會煮第三次第三次煮不成煮第四次請問在這個時機點"},{"start":3722.799,"end":3744.579,"text":"你取消這個延任他們每個人都不合法的話公共電視面臨的就是重新再來一次動盪不安最慘的就是員工的權益他們會在內耗中度過這以上我四點聲明好 謝謝李部長很詳盡的說明我們宗嘉斌委員請求二次發言我們請民進黨團二輪發言國民黨團 台灣民眾黨團請準備請"},{"start":3748.522,"end":3762.73,"text":"好我還是要來跟很誠意的總結一下過去這兩年國眾兩黨在立法院推動的修法往往只見秋毫不見于心往往只看到個案不見到通案"},{"start":3763.61,"end":3784.69,"text":"本案來講以為是公共電視法的問題實質上是財團法人法的規定財團法人法第40條第三項明明白白的就寫著財團法人的董監事任期屆滿但新任董監事尚未產生前原任董監事必須持續的擔任其職務"},{"start":3785.971,"end":3803.803,"text":"這不是公共電視法自己的規定而已這是整個中華民國所有的財團法人根據財團法人法第四條的規定所以如果國民黨民眾黨認為這個不應該那就回頭去把財團法人法的規定整個拿來看"},{"start":3804.463,"end":3821.856,"text":"那為什麼財團法人法這樣規定呢剛剛用了萬年國會這個錯誤援引比率什麼萬年董事會我來說明一下基本上我們的法人我大概用三種類型來跟大家介紹一個是自治法人一個是公司法人一個是財團法人什麼是自治法人"},{"start":3822.757,"end":3843.985,"text":"就是譬如說我是屏東縣縣民我因為戶籍而取得屏東縣民的身份屏東縣政府是自治法人他因此他就成立了一個縣政府有一個縣長有縣議會依法這些職務都必須定期改選任期屆滿當然不可能延任這是很清楚的因為這是由人組成的法"},{"start":3845.469,"end":3867.677,"text":"人組成的團體當然由人來決定這些人的去留但是什麼是公司法人公司法人是由股東組成由資金組成出資的人就是股東股東來決定公司的經營權因此公司法人的總監事遇到了整個股東對於經營權有所不同意見他會重新重組"},{"start":3868.817,"end":3888.354,"text":"所以我們看到公司法人遇到了新任的董監是不能產生的時候經常的是兩派他們透過法律訴訟去處理公司的經營權的問題但是什麼是財團法人在座國民國眾兩黨的委員你們好好的想一想財團法人不是以人為主體"},{"start":3889.568,"end":3906.687,"text":"不是以盈利為目的它是以公眾的資金而組成的一般的由民間捐贈的財團法人捐贈之後他所成立的捐贈的所決定的董事會他就負責所捐贈的這筆基金它的營運"},{"start":3907.768,"end":3933.808,"text":"而由現任的董監事去產生下任的董監事如果按照剛剛所謂的萬年董監事的邏輯那所有台灣所有的非營利的財團法人這些財團法人等於是封閉式的你去看看我們的教育部他管的那些學校的財團法人由原任的董監事產生新任的董監事會不會有任期屆滿而不能產生要延任的情況不會嘛"},{"start":3934.528,"end":3959.603,"text":"因為這些人不是在行使他的職權這些人在行使這個基金所交付給他管理的任務今天我們看到公共電視他是財團法人他尤其是政府國家捐助的基金所成立的財團法人誠如剛剛李部長所說的這些董監事不是這些基金的所有人他不是公司的股東這些錢不是他出的他只是志工 他只是代表"},{"start":3960.583,"end":3987.334,"text":"被授權來管理這些政府捐助的基金如此而已因此這些人的職務他就是延續著這基金的管理剛剛李部長講很清楚了這幾年來這些新任的董監事不能如期產生不是文化部的問題是提出來的名單部長自責說我提的不夠好所以立法院或者說立法院產生的這個審議委員會不能夠通過這個新任董監事那請問"},{"start":3988.795,"end":3996.471,"text":"新任的董監事沒有產生之前原任的董監事在負責管理政府所捐助的基金有什麼問題"},{"start":3999.306,"end":4022.267,"text":"所以我就覺得我還是要懇請國眾兩黨當你們在看公共電視法的時候請回顧一下你們對於這些不同性質的法人他的利潤基礎如果你們要修就修財團法人法讓全國的財團法人遇到你們所謂的萬年董事的時候都能夠順利的處理 以上好 謝謝鍾嘉斌委員二人發言接下來我們請張祺凱委員二人發言讓他請準備"},{"start":4025.859,"end":4029.523,"text":"小野部長以前我們尊敬的作家現在是李遠部長你剛剛自責說"},{"start":4032.543,"end":4057.993,"text":"提名你提不出來或者過不了你說是一個歷史公約我跟你講是可以解決問題的至少兩個問題是很嚴重的第一個或許不要用擺爛這個字眼可是拖延沒有如期提出人選這確實是政府很大的問題你應該承認嘛對不對這是第一個點為什麼延誤就是延誤不要不見得用擺爛可是確實是延誤這是第一個點第二個我提醒你一個第二個更重要的"},{"start":4059.278,"end":4069.13,"text":"上一任的立法委員就是蔡英文當總統的時候你們董建世的提名是要跟各個政黨是要討論的你這次有跟各個政黨討論嗎"},{"start":4072.123,"end":4100.357,"text":"這過程裡面也是一堆的這個問題你既然要解決問題那就要廣納人才開大門走大路跟各個政黨跟全民討論把最好的人才提出來就可以過了好不好 先解決這兩個問題另外我剛剛提一個重點很重要事實上我們肯定肯定公司的董監事都是一時之選也很賣力對國家社會是有供應身為一個媒體人我當然知道可是我聽到他們講的就是很無奈"},{"start":4101.497,"end":4125.663,"text":"他們因為有這個條文的保障所以你們把這個提名的時間拖延了或者說沒有廣納各界的這個意見變成他們去背這個黑鍋啊所以我們今天提這個事老蔣也是幫優秀的董監事們解決問題啦好不好那部長你趕快第二次你剛講第一次沒過嘛對不對第二次我都跟你講更年在什麼地方了趕快開大門走大路把真正人才推出來就一定可以過了而且可以解決這個萬年這個問題"},{"start":4127.663,"end":4154.02,"text":"把這個條文先拿掉 謝謝謝謝張祺凱委員的二人發言國民黨團請二人發言第二輪我們黨團先好不好 謝謝部長剛剛講得很委屈你提的人選非常棒通過的不夠多我想請教部長賴清德跟蔡英文有什麼不同蔡英文總統 你民進黨那時候國會還多數"},{"start":4157.251,"end":4183.437,"text":"請問那時候有沒有徵詢國民黨 民眾黨來共同推薦公視董監事有啊有啊有啊那想請問為什麼這一屆你文化部長做不到你做不到更重要一件是什麼事情先不跟賴慶德跟蔡英文比較了"},{"start":4184.687,"end":4210.149,"text":"你就像這次中選會提名出來 我覺得就是很好的方式啊起碼在野黨有 現在新民意國會是多數難道你今天要國會同意的名單我先不講公事董事事 因為那是審查會 審查委員我們推薦但是我要講人事提名 本來你就要尊重國會各政黨更何況現在新民意國會多數黨是在野黨啊"},{"start":4211.598,"end":4240.271,"text":"而來了你就自己提你認為很棒的14人名單那是你認為很棒啊因為跟你意識形態符合啊你當然覺得很棒我不否認你啊你覺得很棒啊可是為什麼你不覺得國民黨的民眾也可以提出你覺得很棒的人選呢你今天如果真的有心要提出一個至少在國會的民意地圖上大家都覺得我們有考慮過可以來去討論接受人選"},{"start":4241.539,"end":4266.121,"text":"你起碼問問國民黨跟民眾黨黨主席或黨中央的意見嘛都是在野黨嘛各政黨的意見難道不能放進去嗎這個要求又很過分嗎你沒有做嘛你沒有做你提出來的人選有你盲點式的偏誤跟你自己認為符合你的價值觀意識形態的喜好的人你被刷掉你委屈那你到底有什麼好委屈的"},{"start":4267.469,"end":4276.655,"text":"你好好跟在野黨我們一起共同來討論名單你就不用這麼委屈啦同樣的還是一樣啊如果不好的名單可以剔除啊也不是不能剔除啊"},{"start":4285.141,"end":4312.239,"text":"我想罗志强委员跟我们民众党委员是上一届不在立法院所以这个事实已经被你们扭曲了把赖清德总统跟蔡文总变成一个奇怪的对比把我们文化部长小野跟之前的文化部长好像作为一个强烈的对比我想请提醒一下大家因为上一届我们在教文委员就因为"},{"start":4313.396,"end":4332.444,"text":"文化部提出來的董事人選不斷的被杯葛所以我們改了公示法因為過去的門檻是四分之三難度更高就改成三分之二但是情況顯然沒有好一點如果延任等於是護航等於是擺爛我想提醒大家剛剛我們部長李遠講得比較客氣第四屆968天延任那是2010年到2013年因為當時的門檻是四分之三"},{"start":4343.229,"end":4346.093,"text":"如果968天就是提不出好人選就是擺爛的話馬英九擺爛的時間比蔡總統擺爛時間還多一天當然蔡總統沒有擺爛我們仔細看剛剛部長說是歷史共業"},{"start":4359.471,"end":4385.163,"text":"以我看到是誰被淘汰不是歷史共業幾乎都是藍營推薦出來的審查委員他杯葛了跨黨派的文化人你今天如果要說陳翠蓮曾經因為研究二二八撕裂族群你們認為他是撕裂族群理由是研究二二八撕裂族群被反對擔任公視董事化其他被反對的我問你哪一個"},{"start":4385.803,"end":4410.588,"text":"這些學者我都認得柯玉芬政大傳播教授你去查一下他有沒有講過支持民進黨的話我保證你應該是查不到郭立新政大傳播學院院長他甚至可能會被認為甚至被認為是反綠也被你們否決然後賀兆提導演這個單純的文化人你找不到他任何黨派色彩郭敏榮"},{"start":4411.488,"end":4430.649,"text":"影展策展人這是在過去被你們就是否決掉的這都是被藍營提名的審查委員否決所以這不是歷史共業是藍營才在用意識形態而且這根本沒有意識形態的人只是因為是民進黨政府提名的你們就否決"},{"start":4431.73,"end":4439.414,"text":"再講了企業家最近一次的施政榮他有什麼色彩被你們否決陳湘琪國際知名的金獎導演金獎演員我都看過他好幾部電影也被你們否決不用講舒敏恩歌手這些到底有什麼色彩"},{"start":4451.081,"end":4473.98,"text":"所以我要講的事情是你這樣子的修法事實上很可能剛剛講的就算提名找不出人選的時候或者是文化部長我在教文委員會已經質詢他了為什麼提不出人來他說過去這個歷史只要是優秀的文化人來這裡被羞辱而且你去查記錄都是被藍營推薦的審查委員羞辱"},{"start":4474.961,"end":4493.949,"text":"所以這個歷史共業基本上我看到的現象是藍營就是不分青紅皂白再背一個優秀的文化人最後不長找不到人所以公共電視法不是不能改革可是被你這個改法你幾乎變成癱瘓董事會如果"},{"start":4494.409,"end":4522.524,"text":"你們推薦的審查委員繼續這樣做的話你等於是讓董事會癱瘓所以我們不能夠接受用這種方式亂修公共電視法要檢討的是藍營怎麼樣對文化人這才是在羞辱文化人好 謝謝范營委員的發言部長您還要補充嗎請謝謝讓我再講兩句就好我想因為我年紀蠻大所以我有經歷過黨政軍控制媒體的時代在"},{"start":4523.669,"end":4548.103,"text":"後來大家的呼籲下黨政軍退出媒體之後才會有公共電視才會有把華視捐給公共電視這件事情華視捐給公共電視正好20年中間換了15個總經理你就知道當人與人不相信彼此不信任的時候也不相信自助的時候最後被整到的是所有員工"},{"start":4549.386,"end":4572.089,"text":"今天黨政軍退出媒體的重點就是立法院依照黨團各自派出評議委員他就已經代表立法院了如果這個人選還要靠雙方來協調政治意識形態來協調那又變成政黨的手又伸去台灣媒體最後一塊淨土"},{"start":4573.63,"end":4593.564,"text":"所以這點剛剛提到說為什麼不來協商就是因為當年我們的行政院有提名權立法院組成一個評審團有審查權剛剛一再強調沒有人可以審查到968天第二次967天跟這個法律有什麼關係"},{"start":4595.492,"end":4607.466,"text":"最倒楣就是所有的員工的權益一直在內耗現在已經20週年了我懇求大家不要再啟動這個東西好 謝謝部長你放心你年紀"},{"start":4608.803,"end":4629.941,"text":"不知道幾歲 但看起來精神非常好要有信心我們要做結論了抱歉 因為我非常珍惜那個李院部長我對他是很尊敬的所以我搶著要我平常如果平常主席已經講話我就不講這是我第一次第一次韓院長講因為我對你有非常高的期待你剛提到經歷過以前黨政軍的一把抓這時代"},{"start":4630.802,"end":4650.921,"text":"你沒有發現今天我們在談的就是是不是決策者或者行政部門把某些東西都抓在手上我給你一個最簡單的對照組同樣考試院的委員你有徵刑過各個政黨啊考試院委員很平順就過了啊一樣最近提出來的中選會委員以前不跟在野黨溝通不開辦文走大陸啊"},{"start":4651.84,"end":4678.411,"text":"那現在你看這一次提出來中協會大家基本上是叫好的所以我覺得部長你不用自責我覺得你來是有使命的我剛講我們也非常肯定現任的這個董監事可是我們幫他解決問題你就開大門走大路不要變成以前你擔心的那個黨政軍一把抓那個時代把門打開問問在野黨問問全民真正找到好的人才是可以過的好不好好謝謝張啟凱文謝謝再次發言各位黨團剛剛我想我們就做"},{"start":4680.032,"end":4681.454,"text":"簡單的幾個重要的結論"},{"start":4685.117,"end":4714.397,"text":"保留條文我們第16條顯然沒有辦法達成共識我們就送院會處理那第49條咧大家如果同意的話我們就不予修正維持現行條文這個是基本上達成共識了第三我們本案院會進行處理的時候廣泛討論由各黨團推派一位委員發言逐條討論及三讀完成後我們均不再發言逐條討論保留條文一黨團版本先後進行表決"},{"start":4715.858,"end":4732.61,"text":"那是本案各項題均列入公報記錄請問各黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有沒有意見好那非常感謝李部長謝謝林浩還有各位文化部列席的謝謝我們要進入到第三題第三案謝謝哇 這一團亂"},{"start":4750.666,"end":4762.204,"text":"好 謝謝各位黨團幹部 謝謝我們進入第三題公職選罷法修正案我們就合併處理依照條文的順序進行協商"},{"start":4763.564,"end":4780.632,"text":"我們先一樣介紹我們列席的官員首先我們介紹內政部劉部長 歡迎我們第二位要介紹民政司政司長 歡迎您第三位介紹中選會代理主委吳代理主委 歡迎您"},{"start":4784.66,"end":4811.08,"text":"司法院民視廳的林廳長 歡迎您法務部 謝參事 歡迎您好 謝謝各大任務我們現在協商的主題是楊耀委員等17位凝聚的公職人員選舉罷免法第67條及69條條文修正草案及蘇清泉委員等23位凝聚公職人員選舉罷免法第69條條文修正草案"},{"start":4812.731,"end":4827.083,"text":"以及台灣民眾黨團鄰居公職人員選舉報名法第32條及第43條條文修正草案等共三案共計四個條文二本市協商三案於113年12月16日"},{"start":4829.145,"end":4851.98,"text":"本屆第二會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議決議審查完略分別凝聚審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前須經由黨團協商並於113年12月26日由徐新穎委員主持過一次黨團協商但是遺憾沒有達成共識因此於本次會議我們再次進行黨團協商"},{"start":4856.243,"end":4874.86,"text":"我們現在建議各位黨團幹部為了有利於協商的順利進行各黨團直接針對第32條 第43條 第67條 69條我們開始直接進行討論 好嗎首先我們要請提案的洋耀的民進黨黨團請表達意見 好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":4878.174,"end":4899.389,"text":"主席各位略行人員有關於本條問題的協商民進黨黨團基本上都把反映事實就好當年就是行政委員把所有人擋在門外嘛所以這個根本沒有討論所以今天是第一次討論我們基本上是尊重行政部門的意見"},{"start":4900.716,"end":4922.77,"text":"好 謝謝柯總統非常清楚 簡短有力的說明接下來我們請提案還有蘇清泉委員所提的請國民黨團表達意見好嗎 謝謝因為這是民進黨委員楊耀提的那如果說民進黨反對自己委員提的提案的話本黨團沒有意見"},{"start":4926.138,"end":4942.511,"text":"好 我們現在請台灣民眾黨團請表達一點好啦 如果民進黨反對楊耀的提案我們就支持民進黨反對OK 好我們請那個 那個 呃那我們請劉部長跟中選會分別表達意見 好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":4943.84,"end":4953.987,"text":"謝謝韓院長以及各位黨團的高見有關於67條跟69條的部分我們跟中選會的意見非常相似就按照中選會的統計在107年跟111年地方公職人員選舉當中相同票數的是11件"},{"start":4962.073,"end":4988.585,"text":"村里長十件 鄉民代表一件 還有九件那如果先封存選票 另外重新計票的話會耗費相當的作業時間而且當選人名單也會延後公告而且會增加司法資源跟各級政府的經費負擔所以是不是請大院的委員可以審慎來衡酌這個要不要修法 謝謝好 謝謝劉部長清楚的表達接下來我們請中選會吳代理主委請表達意見"},{"start":4989.164,"end":5013.102,"text":"那院長還有我們各位委員我想對於針對六七條的這一個修法的部分那如果有顯示機關票數相同有顯示機關先申請這一個管轄法院這個查問以後再重新計票那相同再來抽選決定那我們的看法是說第一個他會增加司法資源的負擔那第二個是會拉長作業時間那不利於選舉結果"},{"start":5014.443,"end":5023.816,"text":"的及早確定那這兩個部分這恐怕要做這個審慎的考量那期待我們69條跟32條43條等一下我們再表達意見"},{"start":5029.893,"end":5048.471,"text":"謝謝中選會請法務部請表達意見代表司法院司法院請表達意見先跟主席還有各位委員還有各位先進報告剛才那個我們這裡不能用瓊瑤式的都聽不見你講什麼麻煩你用金庸式的大聲一點是 不好意思"},{"start":5049.292,"end":5068.958,"text":"遵照主席指示辦理不好意思這個關於剛才內政部還有中選會的這個長官所提到說這個增加選務成本還有司法資源我們競表贊同那這邊另外跟報告就是有關67條的提案其實在現行的法令下不只選罷法"},{"start":5069.958,"end":5095.297,"text":"那個票數相同用抽籤決資像強制執行法仲裁法還有很多地方製度法這個是廣泛存在於各個法令所以這個部分先跟各位補充第一點那第二點因為67跟69條都有增加司法負擔的一個問題也藉這個機會跟大院報告因為我們司法機關目前案件沉重壓力很大"},{"start":5096.017,"end":5119.6,"text":"這個也建築於法治委員會之前有去本院巡查的時候相關媒體有報導那現在法官的離職率遠高於三年前幾乎兩倍那書記官缺額全國目前最新四百人已經佔了百分之十二趴了有一個新北地院今年要七十一位的書記官缺額只有來兩位報到"},{"start":5121.67,"end":5142.803,"text":"也就是說跟各位報告現在法院體系如果一旦再做這樣子一個耗費的話恐怕崩潰在即這個是要跟各位引述的跟各位報告 以上哇 缺71位書記官只有兩位報到哇 這個好 謝謝我們司法院民視廳的林廳長謝謝您"},{"start":5144.485,"end":5165.572,"text":"那各位黨團幹部顯然67條大家都維持現行條文好嗎好謝謝那我們進入69條我們有蘇清泉委員所提的修正案修正為千分之十之內既然蘇清泉委員麻煩請提案的國民黨團請表達意見好嗎"},{"start":5170.734,"end":5190.102,"text":"提案人的用意就是說希望說能夠更精確的追求有關於選舉結果的正確性所以原來的千分之三的話如果能夠提高到千分之十雖然有選務的成本但是也能夠更符合所謂的選舉的正確性來平離選舉的爭議 以上"},{"start":5195.033,"end":5208.321,"text":"謝謝國民黨團羅志強委員清楚的表示意見那接下來請宗家兵委員請表達意見好嗎張啟凱委員請準備我們有特別去張啟凱委員您稍微等一下我們好張啟凱委員請發言然後宗家兵委員請準備請"},{"start":5210.342,"end":5232.367,"text":"請請請我簡短的講我們有特別去統計了2022年各職僑市市長候選人的得票數後來那個整個那個比例啊都非常的大所以大概百分之十不會有太大的這個影響所以我們支持那個國民黨這個提案把3%放寬到10%千分之十千分之十把3變成是千分之十謝謝我們請鍾嘉斌委員表達意見"},{"start":5233.96,"end":5250.523,"text":"其實剛剛我們兩個有黨的委員的發言其實對照他們在看待第67條的時候其實邏輯上是產生一個理論上的一個反差照說如果差距越近"},{"start":5251.687,"end":5274.403,"text":"越需要驗票那你們認為千分之三的差距呢還不夠要放寬到千分之十那表示說千分之十之內的誤差都要能夠透過法院來進行驗票那我想啊我想呢我用剛剛那個提案說如果同票的話那是相差誤差是零啊"},{"start":5275.472,"end":5300.574,"text":"如果千分之三都要放寬到千分之十那誤差是零那是不是更應該要來驗票呢所以其實剛剛我們考慮的這個邏輯如果是通的話剛剛應該支持同票就要先進行驗票但是為什麼我們不會這樣的主張呢為什麼民進黨團對自己的委員提出來的說如果票數相同應該是先驗票因為票數相同表示什麼誤差是零嘛"},{"start":5301.255,"end":5326.158,"text":"那更應該要驗票啦如果千分之三都要驗了千分之十都要驗了誤差是零當然要驗啦不是這個思考嘛是因為我們考量到司法資源的負荷什麼情況之下會變成零票的誤差呢 同票呢就是規模相對很小的選村長 選代表票數可能是三位數的四位數的總票數"},{"start":5327.583,"end":5349.636,"text":"誤差是零的 那個這個就抽籤決定這純粹不是因為機率的問題是考量到司法資源在面對到兩千七百多個村里長如果大家都這麼搞 法院會累死好啦 那麼現在蘇委員 蘇慶元委員的提案呢他也沒有說是哪一種類型的選舉他是說立法委員 直轄市長 縣市長因為這個選舉規模較大"},{"start":5355.419,"end":5383.852,"text":"那如果呢誤差在千分之三才要驗票那誤差千分之十就是百分之一的是不是也應該驗票呢那我們同樣的用剛剛的邏輯如果只有四位數的選舉人的投票零誤差的我們就不驗了那麼我們現在提到了包括縣市長他的選票數是多少數十萬嘛各十百千萬十萬好啦六位數嘛四位數的誤差零的不驗六位數的就要驗"},{"start":5384.925,"end":5410.455,"text":"為什麼大家反而支持因為六位數的選票如果誤差在千分之三以內的可能大家會覺得應該透過驗票重新審視那些選票的內容是不是有誤所以我們還記得驗票最激烈的是什麼時候陳水扁總統在2004年那一次差不到兩萬票誤差比千分之三還小很多"},{"start":5411.388,"end":5424.622,"text":"所以我覺得我們這個討論千分之三跟千分之十不是在於整個誤差的那個比例而是在母數的規模還有考量到我們施法的實務所以我們很務實地來講為什麼我們認為"},{"start":5427.845,"end":5453.357,"text":"小規模的選舉 零票誤差的我們還是覺得不用先驗票但是規模較大的縣市長的選舉的千分之三是一個合理的要求但是如果達到千分之十那可能產生的驗票的一個需求就會大增那這種情況之下恐怕不利於我們司法資源的運用 以上嘉賓委員他不太有個假設點他是有限制他這幾個類型喔好 你有講 好現在我們請羅志強委員請發言"},{"start":5455.26,"end":5483.919,"text":"兩點說明了我可能想嘉賓兄可能有點搞錯就是按照原來千分之三以內平票的時候抽完籤之後另外那個人不服的話他還是可以申請驗票所以不是沒有驗票啦還是有驗票所以這個是可能法規上的一個狀況第二個就是說我還是再重申一下我們是尊重民進黨因為民進黨的立委的提案民進黨黨團都不支持我們不方便介入你們的家務室所以我們也只好跟進而已所以"},{"start":5484.359,"end":5500.812,"text":"跟這個你們自己都不支持你們委員提案的話我們不好意思介入這是民進黨的黨內黨派之見我們國民黨跟民眾黨不介入啦但是不管怎麼說基本上評票的時候本來就有驗票機制 以上"},{"start":5507.035,"end":5532.706,"text":"2022年啦 就上一次那個直轄市因為類型有 就是主席剛剛講的它是有限定的你從2022年這直轄市來看欸 那個差距最大的新北市啊248.3千分之248.3然後最近的是台南市也有51.7啊像這種落差非常大完全不會有爭議性那我是覺得適度放寬到千分之十應該是合理的好 謝謝張祺凱委員補充費麻煩請中選會議請表達意見好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":5536.55,"end":5564.697,"text":"好 謝謝我想從千人之三到千人之七 千人之十拉到千人之十這個會導致重新計票案件會大幅增加我們現在的這個選區總共九合一有八千七百四十九種那各位想一想如果是千人之三把他拉到千人之十那現在一百 民國一百一十二年的宪判又講了所有的驗票千人之三都適用所有的選舉"},{"start":5565.953,"end":5592.009,"text":"所有選舉都適用 村議長也是一樣那這會造成司法跟行政資源的負擔跟浪費那社會成本會太高了所以我們是建議說還是一樣維持千人之三因為到目前為止千人之三以內的案件也從來沒有翻盤過那更不要講說千人之四千人之三以內都沒有翻盤過了那你說把他拉高到千人之十那根本更不可能 以上"},{"start":5597.095,"end":5614.299,"text":"謝謝謝謝代理主委吳主委的發言內政部劉部長你要表達一些相關意見嗎我想我們的意見跟中選會非常類似我只補充一下就是從96年以來這個落選人得向管轄法院申請重新計票也就是千分之三的這個範圍內"},{"start":5615.999,"end":5639.695,"text":"並沒有重新計票結果改變選舉結果的潛力也就是說如果現在的千分之三再變成是千分之十的話第一個會增加選務機關的工作負荷還有增加法院的這個負擔那就我們從以前111年看到的這個部分如果把千分之三的這個選票差距在內是30個選舉區"},{"start":5641.556,"end":5670.015,"text":"那如果把那個改成千分之十的話呢會大幅倍增到兩倍變成六十六個那如果是這個村裡的部分的話也是一樣從五十六個會跳增到一百一十一個那也表示說在這個選舉開票結果出來之後馬上就要申請管轄的法院申請重新計票的話會被造成選務工作量的負擔或者是法院在處理上面的負擔可能要請大院的委員能夠審慎考量"},{"start":5674.622,"end":5686.434,"text":"我想這個本來要下達一個宣告但是我覺得聽完各位黨團幹部還有行政單位包括我們是不是要再來討論一下好吧 我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":6191.488,"end":6218.253,"text":"你今天表現很好啊我想剛才聽到各黨團幹部的發言還有行政部門的發言司法部門發言我覺得我們都必須要再思考一下所以我們就擇期再行協商好不好各黨團幹部那謝謝我們這個本案沒有辦法達成共識我們擇期再行協商現在協商散會11點鐘我們到院會好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":6223.246,"end":6224.633,"text":"你剛沒有跟他講"}]}},{"id":"17197","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17197","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a609887255d90a3546e0bdae56b7a60aa52c0a219bd209750d2da9756f9002075e655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第4會期第17次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院民進黨黨團，針對第11屆第4會期第15次會議報告事項第70案國民黨黨團擬具「公民投票法第二條及第三十條條文修正草案」院會所作之決定提出復議。是否有當？請公決案等10案。二、1月9日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-13T08:31:07+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-13T11:24:00+08:00","duration":10373,"影片長度":"02:52:53","委員發言時間":"08:31:07 - 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審計部於各省之下現時著涉審計處事 掌理各該地方政府及其所屬機關之審計事項並得由審計部指定監本就近之中央或地方機關審計事項"},{"start":9110.537,"end":9132.062,"text":"中央及地方各特種公務機關 公有營業機關 公有事業機關得涉審計處事 整理各該組織範圍內之審計事項審計部所屬審計處 至審計官兼處長一人 職務列檢任第十三職等除前項規定外 審計處事之組織另於法律定之宣讀完畢"},{"start":9132.987,"end":9145.427,"text":"照審查會條文通過報告院會全案已經經過二讀現在三個黨團分別提議繼續進行三讀請問院會有無異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀這條文"},{"start":9147.389,"end":9173.181,"text":"第七條 審計部至副審計長二人之三人職務列檢任第十四職等 輔助審計長處理布務第十條 審計部至審計官十二人之十八人主任秘書一人 得由審計官兼任處長一人 職務軍列檢任第十二職等副處長一人 職務列檢任第十一職等審計九十五人之一百二十五人警察六十人之八十七人"},{"start":9174.422,"end":9190.1,"text":"職務軍列檢任第八職等至第九職等其中審計35人 機場25人得列檢任第十職等至第十一職等專門委員二人至四人職務列檢任第十職等至第十一職等"},{"start":9190.62,"end":9206.142,"text":"秘書四人 職務列兼任第八職等至第九職等其中二人 能列檢任第十職等至第十一職等科長四人 職務列兼任第九職等專員八人至九人 職務列兼任第七職等至第九職等"},{"start":9206.642,"end":9218.393,"text":"省紀園及機場園87人至99人職務列委任第5職等或經任第6職等至第7職等科園20人至31人職務列委任第5職等或經任第6職等至第7職等辦事園15人職務列委任第3職等至第5職等"},{"start":9226.56,"end":9250.996,"text":"第十四條審計部於各省直轄市縣市著涉審計處事掌理各該地方政府及其所屬機關之審計事項並得由審計部指定監本就近之中央或地方機關審計事項中央及地方各特種公務機關公有營業機關公有事業機關得涉審計處事掌理各該組織範圍內之審計事項"},{"start":9253.677,"end":9281.545,"text":"審計部所屬審計處至審計官兼處長一人職務鏈檢證第十三職等除前項規定外審計處是指組織另以法律定之宣讀完畢報告委員會我們三讀條文已經宣讀完畢請問委員會有文字修正沒有文字修正我們現在做以下決議審計部組織法第七條第十條第十四條條文修正通過"},{"start":9282.932,"end":9306.405,"text":"我們繼續處理審查會所作之附帶決議請議事人員宣讀附帶決議之內容通過附帶決議二項一 為讓審計人員依法獨立行使其審計職權副審計長之任用資格均應以現任審計官為優先考量以確立審計權之獨立性二 要求行政院人事行政總署"},{"start":9308.386,"end":9329.285,"text":"統籌積極協助並就直轄市審計處及縣市審計師業務實際需要及推動數位審計情況逐年核實增加合理能力宣讀完畢報院會照協商結論我們照案通過我們進入討論事項第八案使用牌照"},{"start":9330.249,"end":9352.06,"text":"稅法第五條 第七條及第38條條文修正草案請宣讀審查報告本院財政委員會於114年11月5日 12月4日及29日舉行全體委員會議進行審查會議均由林肇景委員私名擔任主席財政部部長張翠雲等應要列席說明備詢"},{"start":9353.08,"end":9354.481,"text":"現在請召集委員林思敏委員補充說明"},{"start":9375.99,"end":9396.136,"text":"沒有補充說明報院會本案經審查會決議不需再交由黨團協商請問院會有異議沒有異議本案經以審查會意見進行處理現在進行逐條討論使用牌照稅法臺灣民眾黨團提案第五條不予處理請宣讀第七條"},{"start":9397.068,"end":9426.07,"text":"第七條下列交通工具免徵使用牌照是一屬於軍隊裝備偏執內置交通工具二在設有海關地方行駛以經海關徵收駐航服務費持船舶三專攻公共安全使用而有固定特殊設備及特殊標誌之交通工具如警備車 偵查 勘查用車追捕提前人犯車 消防車 攻城救險車及海灘救險船等"},{"start":9426.61,"end":9449.111,"text":"海難救險船等四 衛生機關及公共團體設立之意願專攻衛生使用而有固定特殊設備及特殊標誌之交通工具如救護車 診療車 灑水車 水肥車 垃圾車等五 凡享有外交待遇機構及人員之交通工具經外交部核定並由交通管理機關發給專用牌照者"},{"start":9449.731,"end":9462.926,"text":"六 專攻運送電信郵件使用有固定特殊設備或特殊標誌之交通工具七 專攻教育文化之宣傳巡迴使用之交通工具而有固定特殊設備及特殊標誌者八"},{"start":9464.568,"end":9487.66,"text":"公持有身心障礙手冊或罪名并另应有驾驶执照者使用且为该身心障礙者所有之车辆每人以一辆违宪因身心障礙情况至无驾驶执照者及本人配偶同一户籍二亲等以内亲属所有户二亲等以内亲属所有且村级地与该身心障礙者户籍地相同"},{"start":9488.2,"end":9502.369,"text":"公開身心照驗者使用支撐量每一身心照驗者以量為限但氣缸總排氣量超過2400立方公分完全以電能為動力之馬達最大馬力超過262英吋馬力HP或265.9公尺馬力PS者"},{"start":9508.072,"end":9523.198,"text":"其免徵金額以2400立方公分262英駿馬力HP或265.9公尺馬力PS車輛值稅有違憲超過部分不予免徵9.專攻以立案知識恢復力團體和機構使用"},{"start":9524.123,"end":9545.379,"text":"並經各地設政機關證明者每一團體和機構以三料為限但專攻載送身心障礙長期照顧服務需求而有合法固定輔助設備及特殊標誌者之身衛福利團體與機構經各主轄市及縣市政府統一者得不受三料制限制10.經交通管理機關核准之"},{"start":9545.879,"end":9566.459,"text":"公路汽車客運業及市區汽車客運業專攻大眾運輸使用之公共汽車11 離島建設條例使用地區之交通工具在該地區領照使用者但小客車汽缸總排氣量超過2400立方公分完全以電能為動力之馬達最大馬力超過262英吋馬力HP"},{"start":9569.722,"end":9591.512,"text":"或二百六十五點九公尺馬力PS者不予免徵前項各款免徵使用牌照稅之交通工具應於使用前辦理免徵使用牌照稅手續非經交通管理機關核准不得轉讓改裝改設或變更使用性質宣言完畢趙審查會條文通過第三十八條維持現行條文"},{"start":9594.005,"end":9603.254,"text":"我們全案已經經過二讀現在三個黨團分別提議繼續進行三讀請問院會有異議沒有異議我們宣讀經過二讀這條文"},{"start":9605.339,"end":9633.221,"text":"第七條下列交通工具免徵使用牌照稅一屬於軍隊裝備編制那些交通工具二在設有海關地方形式已經海關徵收駐航服務費之傳播三專攻公共安全使用而有固定特殊設備及特殊標誌之交通工具如警備車偵查勘驗用車追捕體解人犯車消防車工程救險車及海難救險船店"},{"start":9634.222,"end":9654.719,"text":"四 衛生機關及公共團體設立之醫院專攻衛生使用而有固定特殊設備及特殊標誌之交通工具如救護車、診療車、灑水車、水肥車、垃圾車等五 凡享有外交待遇機構及人員之交通工具經外交部核定並由交通管理機關發給專用牌照者"},{"start":9655.359,"end":9669.982,"text":"六 專攻運送電信郵件使用有固定特殊設備或特殊標誌之交通工具七 專攻教育文化及宣傳巡迴使用之交通工具而有固定特殊設備及特殊標誌者八"},{"start":9670.663,"end":9693.855,"text":"公持有身心障礙手冊或證明並領有駕駛執照者水用且為該身心障礙者所有支撐量每人以以量為限因身心障礙情況至無駕駛執照者其本人配偶同一戶籍二親等以內親屬所有戶二親等以內親屬所有且車籍地與該身心障礙者戶籍地相同"},{"start":9694.375,"end":9707.655,"text":"公開身心交易者使用這車輛每一身心交易者以儀量違憲但氣缸總排氣量超過2400立方公分完全以電能為動力之馬達最大馬力超過262英制馬力HP"},{"start":9710.519,"end":9729.438,"text":"或265.9公升马力PS者其免证金额以2400立方公分262英升马力HP或265.9公升马力PS车辆之税额为限超过部分不予免证9.专供以立案之社会福利团体和机构使用"},{"start":9730.358,"end":9751.873,"text":"並經各地設置機關證明著每一團體和機構以三量為限但專攻載送身心障礙長期照顧服務需求而有合法固定輔助設備及特殊標誌者之社會福利團體與機構經各局下涉及縣市政府同意者得不受三量制限制10.經交通管理機關核准之"},{"start":9752.253,"end":9767.464,"text":"公路汽車客運業集市區汽車客運業專攻大眾運輸使用之公共汽車11離島捐贈條例使用地區之交通工具在該地區領照使用者但小客車汽缸總排氣量"},{"start":9768.024,"end":9795.186,"text":"超过2400立方公分完全以电能为动力之马达最大马力超过262英尺马力HP或265.9公尺马力PS者不予免征前项各款免征使用牌照率之交通工具应于使用前办理免征使用牌照率手续非经交通管理机关核选不得转让改装改成或变更使用性质宣布完毕"},{"start":9797.062,"end":9819.783,"text":"報告院會三讀條文已經宣讀完畢請問院會有無文字修正沒有文字修正我們現在做以下決議使用牌照稅法第七條條文修正通過報告院會我們進入討論事項第九案海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":9821.755,"end":9836.377,"text":"本院財政委員會於一百十四年十二月十七日十二月二十九日舉行全英委員會議進行審查會議由林昭雪委員四名擔任主席財政部莊部長崔雲等列席分別應邀列席雙名備詢"},{"start":9838.353,"end":9842.515,"text":"我們請召集委員 林思明委員補充說明沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再交由黨團協商請問院會有異議"},{"start":9867.096,"end":9896.031,"text":"命令本案進行審查會意見處理一例逐章進行二讀海關進口稅則請宣讀第十一章第十一周 脂粉工業產品麥芽澱粉橘糖麵筋1107100為烘製麥芽第一欄稅率修正為免稅1107200烘製麥芽第一欄稅率修正為免稅宣讀完畢照審查會意見通過請宣讀第十二章"},{"start":9896.55,"end":9925.165,"text":"第十二章 油料種子及含優質果實雜項鼓勵種子及果實工業用或藥用植物除草及飼料12101000 或不花什麼求果未經研磨或製粉或成團粒狀者第一欄稅率修正為免稅12102000 或不花什麼求果已研磨或製粉或成團粒狀者啤酒花精第一欄稅率修正為免稅宣禮完畢"},{"start":9925.905,"end":9952.848,"text":"照審查會意見通過包園會全案已經經過二讀現在三個黨團分別提議繼續進行三讀請問園會有無異議面議我們宣讀經過二讀之內容第十一章製粉工業產品麥芽澱粉橘糖麵筋第十二章油料種子及含油脂果實早上鼓勵種子及果實工業用或藥用植物除草及飼料宣讀完畢"},{"start":9956.769,"end":9983.262,"text":"我們三讀的內容已經宣讀完畢全院會有無文字修正沒有文字修正我們現在做以下決議海關進口稅責部分稅責修正通過我們進入討論事項第十案衛星廣播電視法第64條條文修正草案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":9983.925,"end":10005.261,"text":"本院交通委員會分別於114年12月8日及12月22日召開決定委員會議審查傷害草案均由洪少傑委員孟凱擔任主席國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇素報告並邀請金融建築管理委員會等相關機關派員列席並被諮詢於報告及詢答完畢進行逐條審查"},{"start":10007.463,"end":10013.548,"text":"與會員於聽取說明並經討論後將本案並按審查文據擬據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前不需經黨團協商院會討論時推請紅照紀委員孟凱作補充說明宣讀完畢本案經審查會決議不需再交由黨團協商請問院會有異議"},{"start":10033.7,"end":10037.003,"text":"免疫本案進行審查會議件進行處理現在進行逐條討論衛星廣播電視法請宣讀第64條"},{"start":10042.711,"end":10058.034,"text":"第64條他類頻道節目供應事業之經營學科營運管理節目及廣告管理權力保護處罰率另有規定外準用第4條第5條第6條第1項第4項第8條第1項之第5項第9條第10條第1項第3項第11條第1項第12條之第19條第21條之第23條"},{"start":10065.516,"end":10092.737,"text":"第25条至第34条第35条第一项第36条第37条第39条至第41条第42条第三项至第6项第43条至第45条规定本法中华民国104年12月18日修正之条文施行前经营他类频道节目供应事业者应于本法修正施行之日起四年内依规定向主管机关申请学课"},{"start":10093.337,"end":10110.899,"text":"本法中華民國104年12月18日修正之條文實行前經營他類頻道節目公益事業者未於前項期限內提出申請於期限屆滿之日起不得繼續經營本法中華民國104年12月18日修正之條文實行前"},{"start":10111.9,"end":10131.153,"text":"經營他類頻道節目公益事業者於第二項規定期限內提出申請經駁回自駁回處分送達之日期一個月後不得繼續經營本法中華民國104年12月18日修正式條文實行前經營他類頻道節目公益事業者"},{"start":10131.753,"end":10155.934,"text":"與本法修正施行之日起自取得經營許可前其繼續經營期間之節目及廣告規例全力保護應依第一項規定辦理並視為他類頻道節目公益事業宣傳完畢官員會全案經過二讀現在有三個黨團分別登證照審查會條文通過"},{"start":10156.943,"end":10162.195,"text":"我們現在全案經過二讀現在三個黨團分別提議繼續進行三讀請問院會有無異議沒有異議我們宣讀經過二讀這條文"},{"start":10167.045,"end":10181.408,"text":"第64條 他類頻道節目供應事業之經營時刻 營運管理 節目及廣告管理 權力保護 除法律利用規定外 準用第4條 第5條 第6條 第1項 第4項 第8條 第1項 至第5項 第9條 第10條 第1項 第3項 第11條 第1項 第12條 至第19條 第21條 至第23條"},{"start":10189.97,"end":10217.643,"text":"第25條至第34條第35條第1項第36條第37條第39條至第41條第42條第3項至第6項第43條至第45條規定本法中華民國104年12月18日修正之條文施行前經營他類被動節目供應事業者應於本法修正施行之日期4年內依規定向主管機關申請許可"},{"start":10218.263,"end":10247.763,"text":"本法中华民国104年12月18日修正之条文实行前经营他类频道节目公益事业者未于前项期限内提出申请于期限届满之日起不得继续经营本法中华民国104年12月18日修正之条文实行前经营他类频道节目公益事业者于第二项规定期限内提出申请经驳回自驳回处分送达之日起一个月后不得继续经营"},{"start":10248.403,"end":10271.031,"text":"本法中华民国104年12月18日修正之条文实行前经营他类频道节目公益事业者于本法修正实行之日起至取得经营许可前其继续经营期间之节目及广告管理权利保护应依第一项规定办理并视为他类频道节目公益事业宣传完毕"},{"start":10273.294,"end":10301.867,"text":"報院會三讀條文已經宣讀完畢全院會有無文字修正沒有文字修正我們做以下決議衛星廣播電視法第64條條文修正通過報院會討論事項已經處理完畢依照黨團共識本次會議我們不再進行處理臨時提案我們繼續處理附議案兩件以先後順序處理請議事人員宣讀第一條"},{"start":10303.001,"end":10330.988,"text":"本院國民黨黨團針對第16次會議報告事項第157案院會決定提出覆議請公決案宣讀完畢我們現在做以下決定另定其處理請議事人員繼續宣讀第二案本院民進黨黨團針對第16次會議報告事項第119案院會所作之決定提出覆議宣讀完畢我們現在做以下決定另定其處理"},{"start":10331.892,"end":10340.731,"text":"包園會本次會議進行到此為止謝謝謝榮介委員謝謝林佩祥委員謝謝羅美玲委員陪同我們一起來審查法案現在散會"}]}},{"id":"17195","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17195","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302ddf698f77e6c3706a68092d2df03f855180a219bd209750d2d25cea70140e9aafe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-01-12T14:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院交通委員會報告併案審查委員羅智強等55人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員翁曉玲等24人分別擬具「衛星廣播電視法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳雪生等23人、委員傅崐萁等24人分別擬具「衛星廣播電視法第五條條文修正草案」、委員葉元之等22人擬具「衛星廣播電視法第十一條條文修正草案」及委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「衛星廣播電視法刪除第五十條條文草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2026-01-12","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-01-12T13:30:56+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-12T15:09:00+08:00","duration":5884,"影片長度":"01:38:04","委員發言時間":"13:30:56 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來 我們交通委員會 今天NCC的這個衛星廣播電視法的這個協商 那因為兩個黨團到了 國民黨團跟民眾黨團都有代表出席 那民進黨團是不是請我們助理同仁聯繫一下好不好 因為表定是兩點鐘啦 我想說我們就是準時開始 那也感謝我們NCC代理主委跟我們主秘還有相關的部會官員都有出席"},{"start":1793.287,"end":1814.742,"text":"來 相關資料都有拿到了嘛OK 那我們我知道剛剛也看到這個代理主委有都個別在跟委員在做一些溝通我覺得這是好事那之前應該三個禮拜前我們主條審查的時候其實本期也就有特別提到說要請NCC有相關的一個對應跟備案出來那我們可以比較"},{"start":1815.723,"end":1839.175,"text":"聚焦的一個討論那如果說有相關的一個討論的話等一下就直接我們針對我們等一下還是一樣是有保留的條文我們主條來做一個討論那但是希望我們NCC這邊能夠有一些如果有備案的部分就可以直接提出備案好不好那委員這邊我們也就尊重大家的一個發言那等一下我們主條的時候再請各位委員表達意見"},{"start":1940.677,"end":1955.213,"text":"感謝嘉賓委員這個三分鐘如果超過五分鐘就要請喝咖啡了對 我就知道你叫零咖啡衝咖啡對 好"},{"start":1956.294,"end":1983.12,"text":"感謝那我們現在民進黨團的代表也已經到場那我們現在就開始協商那我剛剛也針對就是衛星廣播電視法部分條文修正草案之前有通過或修正通過部分我就不再贅述那我們現在針對保留共12條條文我們再來做這個進一步的協商那我是不是就徵求大家意見我們就逐條來做討論好不好好那沒有問題的話我們就先看第4條"},{"start":1985.27,"end":2009.947,"text":"還要再介紹對不起 因為工作同仁還是說尊重各位委員所以現在介紹在場委員首先介紹我們羅志強委員廖先祥委員張祺凱委員以及鍾嘉賓委員今天列席官員主要是我們NCC代理主委陳崇樹主委"},{"start":2010.956,"end":2019.973,"text":"主任秘書黃文哲秘書黃文哲主秘 抱歉林慧玲我們電台與內容事務處處長以及蔡志如法務事務處處長"},{"start":2022.406,"end":2039.8,"text":"包括司法院我們林靜超法官 謝謝經濟部我們商業發展司嚴和慶科長內政部民政司專門委員戴淑黃專門委員經管會政企局陳湘瑩副組長"},{"start":2041.481,"end":2066.59,"text":"勞動部勞動基金運用局專門委員吳英傑專委主計處公務預算處專門委員黃子涵還有法務部楊石宇檢察官好謝謝好那我們是不是就針對第4條的部分我們請NCC主管機關都先來做個回應你們的意見好不好謝謝來"},{"start":2070.503,"end":2098.522,"text":"跟主席跟各位人報告第4條的部分我們具體建議都是因為民眾黨團有在12條之一有徵提我們是建議說這邊就建議不修然後用12條之一來處理用資訊介入的目的來達到這個資訊公開因為股票公開發行有相對的一些如果是比照有廣法或它是有它規模是比較不一樣它是資本有2億以上的"},{"start":2100.223,"end":2124.947,"text":"很多都是基本上沒有那麼高的部分就是說就是原來的條例裡頭會有一些法人也會適用這個他不需要應該相對上不需要負擔這個東西我們會建議說這一部分就不要修但是用十二條之一來處理那你們十二條之一是可以接受民眾黨團的文字"},{"start":2127.08,"end":2154.271,"text":"有部分來修正12條之一原來是所有新聞頻道跟直播我們會建議這邊是把範圍只限縮在經營新聞及財經新聞頻道那直播的部分不要為什麼直播不要因為直播的話大愛台那個宗教台TV也會被包進來我們建議說那部分把它拿掉就可以"},{"start":2156.02,"end":2178.255,"text":"好來 那民眾黨團要不要先 剛剛NCC的講法就是說第四條不建議修正那就是維持原有的條文但是在十二條之一民眾黨團新增提案裡面然後來讓他新增 那其中自播新聞頻道 自播新聞節目之頻道之"},{"start":2179.356,"end":2190.461,"text":"衛星廣播電視事業這邊不要是不是對 就是自播新聞節目之頻道這幾個字殺掉所以是線說的範圍是經營新聞及財經頻道之衛星廣播電視事業跟主席報告是經營新聞及財經新聞頻道還加個新聞兩個字"},{"start":2207.875,"end":2222.604,"text":"經營新聞及財經新聞頻道好我想因為這兩條是連動的我就請董事我就直接這樣子來做處理第四條跟第十二之一那十二之一在第九頁對那就麻煩我們各委員來表達意見來 首先請張啟開委員"},{"start":2224.949,"end":2246.999,"text":"先謝謝孟凱今天這個衛星廣播電視法這個修正案排上來非常重要這是柯文哲在兩年多前敬請總統的重要政見我在第一會期就是快兩年前一上任就代表台灣民眾黨提了這個案子那沒有錯 重中之重事實上就是剛剛卓偉提的那個條文第十二條之一他主要是要讓"},{"start":2248.64,"end":2269.069,"text":"要讓從政府得到的採購案或者是補助還有廣告公開透明化從主委剛剛的回答大家也看得出來這大概是台灣人民的共識啦我不要說政府拿我們人民納稅錢然後很集中的在某些電視台然後後來這個電視台又常常在罵別人那也不好我們就回到正規讓他可以公開透明化"},{"start":2269.289,"end":2297.102,"text":"所以我們條文是這樣規範的我們是要求說每一年的6月30號以前要將前一年度的資訊就等一下講這個資訊要公開在兩個地方一個就是NCC你來指定一個網站第二個就是這個電視台或者廣播它本身它自己的網站上要披露每年的6月30號那包括哪一些呢你說從政府或者從公立學校或公營事業或者其他"},{"start":2298.002,"end":2315.92,"text":"這些監訴成立的財產法人他只要是採購案還有剛講的補助金額你本身在做一個披露現在看起來這一塊是有共識的那另外我要提醒一個點我們在第12條之一的第7款我們還補了一個中加條款"},{"start":2316.801,"end":2331.673,"text":"宗家條款當然就是當初電視台不能夠去經營這個第四台結果那時候出現了有某個電視台去經營了入主的這個宗家所以我們大概第七款的要求就是說你只要是有持股10%以上的股東"},{"start":2333.235,"end":2349.287,"text":"你說那個電視台他經過層層去掌握就弄到後來他說法規我們在問這個以前的主委的時候那時候的NC主委就說那個比例太低了所以就沒辦法規範那第七款我們是很明確的所以我們今天會非常第"},{"start":2351.867,"end":2377.083,"text":"你們後來是第八 第八款負責人 董事監察人 經紀人跟直接間接持有已經發行表決權總數的10%的股東的投資試驗那你就必須要公開披露這個條文我都非常堅持那OK大概就是依照民眾黨的版本這樣的規範的話12條之一我們可以同意那至於剛才提到那個製波要不要拿掉"},{"start":2378.905,"end":2405.028,"text":"我們的明確定義是希望說新聞跟財經頻道嘛那現在主委是提到說自播自播不要 自播你說會是會讓大愛台跟那個GoodTV那個宗教台都會被含納私用那如果是原來前面兩項的話只有新聞台跟財經新聞台會好 這樣好不好大家如果可以同意第12條之一用台灣民眾黨的這個版本那在這個那個自播這一塊我們可以做個修正 好不好"},{"start":2405.649,"end":2424.268,"text":"可是前提就是要用台灣民眾黨的第12條之一好不好 OK來 其他委員有相關意見嗎這是NCC提出來的現在看起來是NCC提出來台灣民眾黨同意對不對好"},{"start":2431.738,"end":2459.232,"text":"主席 我再請那個民眾黨是不是可以再次幫我們確定因為剛剛他們的建議是說不要有4然後只有12之1那這個部分對 4不要動不要民眾黨團修正的版本就是直接採納你們的12之1就可以含跨你們在第4條修法版本裡面所在意的事情那如果這個部分張綺凱委員可以接受那主管機關也覺得OK我們應該也沒有問題好 所以再次確定一下請張綺凱委員確定"},{"start":2461.121,"end":2465.968,"text":"對啦我這邊是這樣沒錯了那現在是國民黨國民黨是有意見嗎沒有意見"},{"start":2469.994,"end":2495.807,"text":"好看起來很有共識那來我最後主席確認一下就是說所以經營新聞及財經新聞頻道目前韓國的定義譬如說就是電視台裡面49到55這個新聞台到57到57對不對但是你撇開所謂的直播新聞節目所以說像圓明台 大愛台這個雖然他們台裡面有新聞但是不受這樣的一個規範"},{"start":2497.414,"end":2524.368,"text":"刪掉之後他就不會適用這一條好所以如果說比較明確以我們現在的這個收視的習慣的話這一條其實主要是49到57頻道對大概是這樣子沒錯然後也跟主席報告這個12條之前面的那兩個類像在上次通過的條文的第二條裡頭的定義第八款已經定義了對 就上一次我們有把那個新聞及財經新聞頻道給定義對不對"},{"start":2530.384,"end":2551.025,"text":"好所以各位在場委員我們現在就是第四條維持現行條文不予修正那十二條之一就依照臺灣民眾黨黨團的提案修正後通過就刪除直播新聞節目之頻道那幾個字 財經後面加新聞 財經後面加新聞"},{"start":2555.718,"end":2559.782,"text":"條文我簡單再念一遍 12條之一 經營新聞及財經新聞頻道之衛星廣播電視事業有沒有問題好"},{"start":2572.473,"end":2600.947,"text":"為了培育委員我們多念幾次沒有關係十二條之一經營新聞及財經新聞頻道之衛星廣播電視事業逗號因依主管機關指定之方式後面就照臺灣民眾黨黨團版本自播那個拿掉而已 對好所以十九到五十七都有規範OK好 那這樣子就十二條之一"},{"start":2602.148,"end":2615.974,"text":"提案就照臺灣民眾黨黨團版本修正後通過好 接下來請大家再回到第二頁的第5條來 我們是不是也請NCC這邊先來相關意見"},{"start":2619.016,"end":2639.605,"text":"是跟主席跟各位委員報告第5條這邊我們會具體建議是說直接還是不行然後間接的話我們是建議因為上次交委會討論的時候有相關委員也有建議那主席又才是我們回去就我們現在的監理實務來做一些檢視盤點那我們具體建議間接是1%"},{"start":2643.707,"end":2663.981,"text":"但是要搭配但書規定但書規定大概就是陳學生委員他有提案然後再搭配50條的罰則部分來處理那因為文字很多那是不是允許我們把我們建議的文對是NCC有提建議版本那我們直接這個版本給我們在場委員好不好好謝謝好"},{"start":2671.547,"end":2699.667,"text":"好我們請各委員也來過目就說這是上一次我們在審查初挑審查的時候要求NCC在協商的時候要提出相關的這個客觀的一個分析跟專業的一個判斷那現在加入這個部分所以第一政黨還是把它拿掉不是 政黨還是有"},{"start":2701.482,"end":2727.779,"text":"政黨在第二頁政黨的第三項第三項這邊那我跟各位報告簡單來講是這樣子就是第一頁這邊的第一項第五條第一項是政府跟他的法人不得下面有三款第一款是直接是絕對不行第二款是說擔任未管事業的董監事啊發起人啊或經理人那第三款是說如果政府是間接投資或者其他方式來控制未管事業的人事財務"},{"start":2729.478,"end":2749.85,"text":"獲得業務的話這些都對應後面第50條會有一些法則規定那第二項是補充說明上面政府的情況什麼情況才會視為這個政府控制未管事業第二項的第一款是說政府獲得政府他設的法人其實就是那個幾大基金他的"},{"start":2750.971,"end":2769.751,"text":"只有未管事業持股如果超過1%的話這部分是勢為控制後面再要但出這個但出其實就是陳雪仙委員當初的提案裡頭有寫的就是說但政府基金或公營事業因自行委託投信機構投資的部分不在此限"},{"start":2771.865,"end":2787.68,"text":"白化是這樣子然後第二款是說政府或他的法人就是兩個在一起就是說所有白化套個具體的例子說政府他的基金所有基金加起來他的如果超過1%的話這些東西也"},{"start":2790.382,"end":2813.256,"text":"我们也是认为说这种情况之下不得处理但是也是把政府基金把它排掉第二页第三款的公营事业担任微管事业的经理人董监事的话这边也是属于说我们政府不能处理的部分然后第二页的"},{"start":2814.497,"end":2836.468,"text":"第三項 應該是從上面12345678下面20項那邊開始 政黨這邊政黨這邊相對的更嚴格 比政府更嚴格怎麼更嚴格法 第一管是說直接不行 間接也不行但是政府的話是間接 我們有畫一條紅線政黨的話是間接也不行 我們建議條文是這樣子然後第三管跟政府的一樣"},{"start":2838.05,"end":2847.627,"text":"第四管是把一些其他的控制方式我們也列為說這種情況之下是政黨不得從事的行為然後第四管是第二頁的倒數"},{"start":2849.622,"end":2873.999,"text":"第九行的開始 除法律令有規定外政府政黨不得捐助然後第五管事這邊 第二頁倒數第五行這邊政黨的黨務工作人員或政務人員或選任公職人員不得投資衛廣事業然後他的配偶跟二親等以內的血親合計的持股不得超過1%"},{"start":2877.25,"end":2896.007,"text":"然後第三頁是第六項是政黨的工作人員或選任公職人員他不得擔任未管事業的董監事或經理人等一下 主委 代理主委我們只有拿到一二頁就一張您"},{"start":2899.548,"end":2918.84,"text":"還是我們是不是針對因為現在委員手上版本都是一張的這個您是不是用這個一張的來說明好不好那剛剛講的除了第幾頁是不用理會之外其他講的像是都一樣都一樣"},{"start":2927.506,"end":2952.324,"text":"好那是不是我再講一遍好了第一頁這邊的第五條的第一項就是政府的部分是規範政府的部分政府的部分有下面三款是不得從事的行為第一個直接投資是絕對禁止第二個擔任衛廣事業的董監事跟後經理人絕對禁止第三個是間接投資間接投資的這種情況"},{"start":2953.547,"end":2970.592,"text":"那第二項是有這種情況我們視為前面第一項的第三款的視為控制哪些情況呢第一個是政府就第一款政府或者他的法人其實就是一些基金他如果個別"},{"start":2973.773,"end":2984.259,"text":"或其法人個別自個別就是個別加起來超過1%的話我們是會控制然後把四大基金排除就但書這邊就是第一款的後段這邊"},{"start":2985.737,"end":3010.521,"text":"但政府基金或公營事業因自行委託巴拉巴拉這邊不在此限這個是陳秀卿委員的提案的版本我們去把它做一些對應的作修他的紅線是劃10% 我們是劃1%1%是尊氏主席的指示文把我們手上歷年來有違反黨政條款的拿出來對 也要找相關的事業來開會check然後"},{"start":3014.852,"end":3021.292,"text":"第二项的第二款是针对这个政府或者捐助法人及他的"},{"start":3023.257,"end":3047.912,"text":"共同持有的就是前面那一款是每一個個別然後第二款是合計超過1%我們也是認為是有控制的但是也把基金排掉所以二的後段這邊但政府就跟前面一款一樣都是把政府基金跟一些供應事業的就像郵政基金或者勞退那些東西都把它排掉"},{"start":3048.913,"end":3058.848,"text":"然後第三款的部分是公營事業第三款是公營事業擔任未管事業的董監事、經理人這些也是視為控制"},{"start":3061.072,"end":3080.437,"text":"然後第三項就是我們第一頁的12345倒數第五行開始的第三項這邊是講政黨政黨部分是比政府更嚴格政府的部分間接有劃紅線排掉基金政黨是直接間接都不行然後所以就體現在我們這邊翻過來的"},{"start":3082.438,"end":3097.169,"text":"翻過來的沒有翻過來還是第一頁第一頁的第三項的倒數第四項倒數第三項直接間接政黨都不行然後第三管是擔任衛管事業的董監事監理人也不行"},{"start":3098.03,"end":3122.476,"text":"然後第四是他有其他方式以其他方式來控制未廣事業的人事財務會計也不行這種情況那不行的話後面第五十條我們有一些對應的一些法則的一些規範好那請翻到第二頁第五條的第四項第一個是第四項這邊是說"},{"start":3124.594,"end":3141.201,"text":"政府 政黨都不能捐助未廣事業第五項是講人的部分人的部分包括政黨的人員 政務人員選任公職人員跟他的配偶 二親等裡面的血親都不能投資同一家電子事業超過1%這是既有的條文"},{"start":3144.925,"end":3172.579,"text":"然後這個條文大概也是跟陳雪田委員的應該是以他的為主他只是當初有一些物質應該是衛星廣播電視事業而不是系統經營者系統經營是在有線電視那邊然後第六項這邊第六項這邊是規範政黨的人員跟選任也是規範人政黨人員跟選任公司人員不得擔任衛廣事業的總監事跟經理人"},{"start":3173.579,"end":3202.632,"text":"然後第七項是定義一下前面所爭政黨的工作人員是指下面有兩款的情況是做一些定義然後第八項第八項這邊是講說第八項這邊是因為全球性維園部分我們有一些修正的一些建議這邊不太一樣"},{"start":3204.777,"end":3230.999,"text":"再來是第九項這邊違反它對應的法則部分我們這邊會有這個建議就說要主管機關就NCC這邊會令餵管業者做下面的事情人的部分我們是叫餵管業者要解除他懂監視的一些職務政府的部分我們解除政府政黨或者捐助法人受到對餵管事業的一些控制"},{"start":3234.42,"end":3241.596,"text":"那以上先好 簡單補充 好來那個初期委員有沒有針對NCC提出來第5條來"},{"start":3244.062,"end":3264.031,"text":"這邊我想請教主委你們這次為什麼要搞那麼麻煩你本來就是政府政黨積極捐助的財團法人受託人不得違下列行為你們現在把政府跟政黨把它切開來拆成兩項這有什麼意義嗎就是政黨規範更嚴格你們政黨有規範更嚴格嗎我看不得違下列行為不是一樣的嗎"},{"start":3265.111,"end":3291.645,"text":"跟委員報告我們是依照陳雪生委員的版本去修正的那陳雪生委員的版本也是把政黨拆到第三項來我們就政府跟政黨去分別規範那政黨是直接間接都絕對禁止那只有開放政府在間接投資的部分可以1%然後用但書去排除政府基金跟國營事業的一些投資行為"},{"start":3297.737,"end":3323.739,"text":"主席我先發言可以嗎好謝謝主席我剛看了一下確實這個長長落落等的兩頁條文幾乎都是基建立在陳學生委員的版本他的版本裡面確實是把政黨黨務工作人員局選任公職人員就是政黨還有政務工作人員這些事情都放進來但是我現在看到主管機關給這個修正動議的版本是分得更清楚"},{"start":3324.139,"end":3338.626,"text":"也就是說日後相關執法人員或者是你們在定相關細則的時候確實會把政黨還有政府的角色講得更清楚到底他們各自的紅線是什麼看起來其實是優化了陳雪生委員的版本"},{"start":3339.506,"end":3354.393,"text":"如果在一黨委員可以接受那我想這一條民進黨黨團也沒有意見因為看起來主管機關已經覺得各自畫的紅線而且是定義更清楚也也就是說在一黨委員非常在意的那個政黨跟政府跟媒體之間的紅線關係謝謝好來翁小玲委員"},{"start":3362.233,"end":3373.287,"text":"另外就是有个问题因为原来的规定是说他间接投资10%你们现在限缩到1%在过去的这个实务案例里面你们处罚的最高的间接投资是有百分之多少"},{"start":3374.564,"end":3392.1,"text":"根文报告我们的对应有限那边有很多是把各种基金加起来是有超过5%的但是如果单数把它排除掉的话它个别的部分间接的都低于1%就是某个个案是某个地方政府的投资那一块是低于1%"},{"start":3393.161,"end":3417.236,"text":"所以我们划1%这边是OK的然后上次教委会讨论的时候也有委员提说很多那种公司没有很大的1%以下或持股比例很高的都当董事长所以他们觉得划1%那边是相对既符合现行我们建立的历来处分的党政军违反的案件也符合目前的一些需要因为我记得德国好像3%嘛"},{"start":3419.612,"end":3445.357,"text":"也跟我们报告我的意思就是说你们现在规定1%最后呢也还是绑手绑脚然后接下来就翻过来就是你们这里讲说未来违反前面的规定是由主管机关可以命其限其处分那你这里主管机关未来是怎么解释是目的事业主管机关吗就是NCC"},{"start":3446.428,"end":3475.633,"text":"就还是有NCC可是你们有办法可以命他们这个去做处犯吗有就是我们那50条我们建议是我们也规范说政府投资或政党投资我们都有对应法则然后如果是在那部分刚刚讲政务人员政党人员这些持有部分要请微广业者解除他的股东身份股东权利如果微广事业不从的话我们就罚微广事业"},{"start":3478.244,"end":3499.679,"text":"所以從講裡面不好意思我沒聽到你說的就是政府或政府的法人如果他有違反直接或讓他去讓他擔任這個未管業者的一些總監事或經理人或政黨人員也是一樣他有直接或擔任總監事的部分我們獲得違反他捐助未管事業那這些東西我們都會罰20萬到200萬這個罰還然後先罰政黨罰投資的人"},{"start":3510.084,"end":3516.168,"text":"罰他然後再令他陷阱改正那完整條文是這樣子你們是罰對你們再講清楚你是說你們NCC可以去罰投資人翁小蓮委員的問題是對要罰的是到時候會不會罰到電視台就別人投資然後反而罰電視台"},{"start":3533.892,"end":3548.949,"text":"這也是過去我們的樣態嘛你不小心有人電視台他可能是公開上市然後就別人來買了他不能這個反而變成是電視台受罰經濟部或者是金網會他們有這個權利啊他們是直接去主管這些相關的這個"},{"start":3553.834,"end":3581.013,"text":"相關的投資補充報告如果屬於那種間接投資的我們的罰則是設計成兩種政府直接的或怎麼樣我們就罰政府如果是政府直接的它超過1%或怎麼樣的我們是先另改正再不改正才罰就是兩種嚴格是先罰再另改正相對另外一種是說我先叫他改正他不改正我們才開始罰"},{"start":3581.813,"end":3595.599,"text":"然後這都是對投資人對被投資的未廣業者如果未廣業者沒有依照前面那幾款說你不要給他擔任不能讓他享有股東權你不能有息子表屆權你還讓他息子表屆權你還讓他息子股東身份的話我們會發未廣業者"},{"start":3599.107,"end":3623.946,"text":"好主席我確認一下我們來釐清一下意思就是說不知情者假設蔚廣電視他是不知道狀況就是剛翁小林委員擔心的他是被投資然後他不知道但是你們知道你們主管機關就要處罰那個投資人對嗎那可是如果蔚廣電視知道了而且讓他行使所謂的股東的權益啊表決權這些那就是蔚廣電視系統會被開罰對不對各位報告投資人"},{"start":3627.589,"end":3636.913,"text":"投資人假設他是買基金我們不會罰這個投資人是罰這個基金總之就是出錢那個人就是各自都有開罰狀態這樣這樣主席我協助你釐清"},{"start":3641.468,"end":3668.11,"text":"好沒關係 那個我想這一條第五條要跟第五十條搭配看因為第五十條是那個強調第五條的一個違反的法則在這邊好 培育委員不用急好不好我再主持 謝謝所以我們現在在那個在跳到五十條前我先確定一下你剛剛有一個地方沒有講清楚在就是說你修正的這個政黨的部分"},{"start":3669.215,"end":3694.786,"text":"你現在寫法是 政黨黨務工作人員 政務人員跟選任公職人員不得投資 本人不得投資 但他的配偶二等親或直系姻親可以投資 可是以一趴為限一趴為限 是現有的規定對 現有規定嘛 但我現在說 你現在等於是政務人員跟選任公職人員不得投資 但他配偶跟二等親可以投資"},{"start":3696.721,"end":3725.255,"text":"但是有有紅線 對然後單一趴為限可是合計起來一趴以內所以是配偶直系血清或是二等清都一趴為限配偶跟他的二清等以內對 合計加起來嘛 對好 那但是現在我們的這個如果說以政務人員或是選任公職人員來講的話他的陽光法案就是說受監察院申報應該是只有配偶跟二等清的血清有申報那直系陰清沒有申報"},{"start":3726.584,"end":3739.44,"text":"那你這樣子要怎麼樣去掌握用竊竊還是用什麼方式請他們竊竊給我們他們是符合這個法律規定你說請誰竊竊"},{"start":3745.692,"end":3745.912,"text":"OK"},{"start":3763.47,"end":3788.679,"text":"但因為以往的樣態比較常的是譬如說政務人員或是選任公職人員在報監察院的時候他財產申報看到他有那個股票那連現行是一張都不行所以就被挑出來可是如果說你現在放寬之後就變成是說配偶或是二等親內的血親財產申報18歲以下的孩童他是有申報的但他超過18歲之後他其實也沒有申報"},{"start":3789.679,"end":3814.846,"text":"那本席只是提出來是說如果說這樣放話會不會未來你要掌握的狀況比較不容易跟主席報告那我們變成是被動式的來做一個稽查對 政黨人員本人他個人他本人是不能絕對不行他的配偶跟二青團是合起來一趴那個是不行那個是對應這個現行那是現行條文就已經規定了"},{"start":3816.363,"end":3840.985,"text":"就是黨務人員 政務人員 選任公職人員他本人是不可以投資是啦 這我理解就我現在是是我的問題在問你說如果說未來因為你現在只有一趴的一個門檻那這樣子你要怎麼樣有辦法去掌握或者說怎麼樣能夠剔除這個就是技術層面的問題我說未來執法上的問題"},{"start":3844.146,"end":3863.458,"text":"根據報告因為是現行條文我們食物操作歷年來大概也會請他們相對切捷好來那這樣子我們先第5條這邊大家有看了這個NCC提出的條文那也是依照我們上一次的這個結論來提出這個%的部分就是說不要"},{"start":3864.485,"end":3879.325,"text":"被動的只要持股一張甚至一股都會變成是受罰我們還是強調第五條黨政軍退出媒體這個核心概念沒有變黨政軍退出媒體這個核心概念沒有變那只是實務上場如果說有任何人拿一股"},{"start":3879.705,"end":3900.865,"text":"甚至一張股票那他就變成是說違反了這一條規定所以我們現在是講說以現行的樣態裡面1%以內都還算不會實質影響整個公司的運作沒有這樣的一個影響力而且這可能實務上來講會比較常見的也因此NCC今天提出來就是以1%為比例但是只放寬政府跟"},{"start":3901.886,"end":3923.231,"text":"捐助成立的財團法人而政黨的部分以及政務人員跟選任公職人員都還是維持不得投資OK那如果說有這樣的一個狀況的話就是第50條來去做相關的處罰那我們現在要看第50條在我們的第21頁"},{"start":3935.398,"end":3957.546,"text":"可是第21頁NCC是不是也有那個修正的版本有 剛剛發下去那是不是各委員都有收到NCC提出來的第50條的修正版本好 那我請各委員看一下第50條就NCC的修正版本那其中"},{"start":3958.925,"end":3980.275,"text":"主要看來就是違反的話處新台幣20萬元以上200萬元以下罰還 那令限期改善那如果說沒有改善的話則按次處罰對不對 對主要你的那個罰還的一個金額是20萬以上200萬以下限期改善 如果說沒有改善就按次處罰"},{"start":3981.243,"end":4008.218,"text":"就第一項是先罰錢並令限期改正然後第二項在隔壁那邊是先令改正不改正才罰那它情況是稍微有點不一樣的那第二項這邊是它有間接投資或其他方式控制的這種情況那前面第一項這邊是直接投資然後還擔任經理總監事的那個都先罰都比較嚴重先罰然後再令限期改正"},{"start":4014.619,"end":4038.155,"text":"好 我們各位有沒有相關意見對 基本上就是處罰這個行為人處罰行為人沒有處罰這個被投資者那如果說除非被投資者沒有遵守NCC相關規定對 就是我們那第五項第五項那邊 就是說"},{"start":4039.209,"end":4067.86,"text":"他間接投資你超過那個帕克數你還給他擔任股東還讓他行使股東權利還給他有表決權我就罰你然後也令你限期改正好我對於其中一個第50條有個疑義是按次處罰的次怎麼認定我們法務處解釋一下就是我們會看他給一個合理的改正期間那改正期間合理是多久呢那就看狀況"},{"start":4070.47,"end":4079.422,"text":"我們確定他的投資情形是什麼樣然後每一個個案他投資的金額大小我們可能會根據個案去做一個判斷"},{"start":4087.688,"end":4104.771,"text":"每個個案上他的股票他要把它處分掉的難易度不一樣那我們到時候做成處分的時候會限期假設某個個案是限期一個月某個個案是限期半年那這個期間到他還沒賣掉就是罰第二次就是按次是這個概念"},{"start":4105.051,"end":4130.644,"text":"但是主委我會認為說這樣子太過於寬鬆兩個部分因為我們現在不是以前沒有黨政軍退出媒體而現在才要退出媒體所以讓它有個緩衝期我們現在是雖然說稍微放寬但是實際上黨政軍退出媒體的核心是很不變所以基本上你是政府機關你是財團法人你是政黨的相關人員你本來就知道你不能去投資"},{"start":4131.604,"end":4157.045,"text":"你不會有誤入我們現在其實1%只是說有這種誤入的狀況可是如果說你今天被查到是我一次擁有大量我擁有10%擁有20%那你就是蓄意要去把手伸進這些這個衛星廣播那你還跟我講說按次改善那如果按次改善你半年才發一次半年才發一次那他就把它變成是繳罰單來"},{"start":4158.922,"end":4178.609,"text":"花錢消災跟主席報告我們在第一項裡頭如果覺得縣級改正縣級覺得說沒有明確化會是相對寬鬆的話那主席這邊或者委員這邊也可以討論縣級你可以都直接寫約定一個月或幾個月完成"},{"start":4181.926,"end":4200.209,"text":"然後如果他很嚴重的話發完額度我們當然是用一開始看他情況很嚴重的20萬到200萬也許第一次很嚴重的第一次就到頂了就200萬然後現時可能假設今天假設通過的三足版本是一個月他一個月內一定要完成不完成就發第二次好 來 祖密"},{"start":4202.686,"end":4231.19,"text":"因為現在案次其實是立法例大概都有那案次的話其實也是依照不同的情況那個給予合理的期間那主席剛才在擔心的是說會不會過於寬鬆或怎麼樣其實因為這種事情大概大概都是會全國矚目所以應該不至於有主管機關會恣意的給他一個比較相對過於寬鬆的這樣子所以我覺得應該應該還是要給主管機關一個一個一個採量的空間OK 按照事情而給予不同好"},{"start":4232.675,"end":4261.735,"text":"來 那我請在場委員幫他看一下那這樣子第5條跟第50條他是連帶 連動的那如果說針對第5條跟第50條就依我們協商條文通過就是NCC間所在提出來的修正動議條文我們依照這邊通過 有沒有問題好 第5條依協商條文通過第50條也依協商條文通過好"},{"start":4262.785,"end":4277.962,"text":"接下來再請大家看第七頁的第十條第十條來NCC"},{"start":4281.516,"end":4300.488,"text":"第4條是 孟委員有提深設衛廣執照的深設審理期限要三個月完成 三個月沒有完可以再延一次就3加3我們會建議說維持現行現行是6加6 為什麼 因為"},{"start":4303.99,"end":4324.15,"text":"因為有些常常叫業者補件這些資料如果說光是補件審查還有一些出審的時間就會那個如果是3加3就會比較比較很容易就超過這個那如果定成3加3那到時候通常恐怕是被迫要撥回申請會反而造成業者困擾"},{"start":4326.537,"end":4351.976,"text":"當然如果因為上次也有跟文貴委員有初步溝通就是說如果就是說新聞及財經新聞頻道之外他其他的頻道的相對單純那一部分也許可以使用但是新聞及財經新聞頻道應該要除外這樣來處理好來提案委員有沒有建議來羅志強委員"},{"start":4354.724,"end":4381.363,"text":"我觉得那个看NCC可不可以考虑就是说那个我们温委员这个版本里面它中间有那个第一项第三款第四款的文字修正这个部分你们没有意见吧前面的没有特别意见好 那我们就只有这个文字修正保存那你们刚刚讲的这部分我们就维持现状好了可以吗可以"},{"start":4382.182,"end":4400.478,"text":"好那這樣子就第十條我問你念一下就是說你在第三款等於是公共秩序或善良風俗有明顯重大不利影響就是加入明顯重大四個字那以及第四款申請人之財務技術"},{"start":4402.645,"end":4418.309,"text":"及執行能力名逗號明顯不足以實現其營運計畫所以就加入財務技術跟明顯不足這兩個 那後面3加3的部分就不予修正"},{"start":4420.046,"end":4442.41,"text":"翁委員可以支持 翁委員可以接受那我想請教民進黨團可以接受嗎好OK那這樣子NCC這邊也可以接受好那我們就依第10條依翁曉琳委員提案修正後通過好那再來第11頁的第17條"},{"start":4452.25,"end":4471.323,"text":"第十七條有國民黨團這邊有修正動議來 那是不是大家有收到來 我們工作同仁請發一下第十七條的修正動議有嗎好 那是不是請NCC這邊也來"},{"start":4473.651,"end":4498.734,"text":"回應一下針對今天最新的修正動員裡頭有講像第三項的要有輔導改善這一部分我們是建議這邊可以不用修因為實務上這麼多年來因為評鑑相當於期中考過往歷史從來沒有發生評鑑不合格然後我們又叫他退學的這種情況從來沒有發生我們建議說"},{"start":4500.316,"end":4510.295,"text":"對輔導改善是相對比實務上比較不會發生的可能我們建議輔導改善這個不用再修不用修維持原來就可以"},{"start":4512.445,"end":4539.887,"text":"另外第5項這邊快速通關的哪些情況可以免以評鑑這一塊然後是每5年檢討之快速通關也跟委員報告我們現行其實現行的執法也已經有快速通關已經在處理的林氏動議這邊是說哪些可以快速通關授權MCE的執法來處理其實現在我們已經有所以這部分我們是贊同"},{"start":4542.35,"end":4570.492,"text":"另外第四項這邊說什麼情況就要視為評鑑合格這邊我們會初步認為說這邊我們過往的一些評鑑會有一些對應的一些評鑑要看的一些項目如果這種情況之下其實它跟免疫評鑑快速通關其實是相對有部分是重疊或怎麼樣"},{"start":4571.573,"end":4594.611,"text":"我們基本上也尊重三年改五年你們可以接受因為現在已經改成那個九年執照嘛這個我們OK好所以第一個三年改五年可以接受那第二是三年內處分未達三次及累積金額未達八十萬以上免於評鑑這一塊我們認為說因為這個"},{"start":4600.523,"end":4627.675,"text":"本來我們是有人說這個幣值等等之類的假如這步伐要用到很久很久我們是建議說在執法處理就好這邊可以不用加了因為我們現在其實本來就已經訂有快速通關機制了我覺得應該是按照各式各樣的頻道的不同授權在辦法裡面去訂它就好但是可以提醒一下就是說我們要有快速通關機制倒是真的因為反正我們也做了"},{"start":4628.789,"end":4657.768,"text":"那具體來講說第二項的修正其實在第五項授權NCC訂執法裡頭期待執法裡頭就可以處理啦所以第二項其實可以不用訂啦那如果要訂我們也尊重能不能現在因為這個修正動議現在提出來我們後面還有差不多五條條文能不能修正動議這邊NCC如果可以接受的部分能夠再提出版本那讓委員這邊因為羅志強委員主要跟翁小林委員主要是提案人"},{"start":4659.312,"end":4686.25,"text":"如果說他們能夠確認因為你現在講說哪些要訂哪些不訂其實這樣子有點模糊而且你沒有辦法我也認同如果說你不要在募發裡面寫得清楚你執法裡面或者是說相關的這個細則裡面你把它給規範那但是你要怎麼樣把這個立法精神給放進去能不能現在我們最後再回來那現在可能NCC這邊有條文可以修正然後再給委員來做一個確認這樣好不好來請羅志祥委員"},{"start":4688.505,"end":4702.595,"text":"因为我们上次协商那我觉得我也有稍微掺着NCC的意见我做了一点修正因为我看到我们新修再修正的版本那诉讼的那一块我把它拿掉了所以其实也是有回应你们的一部分的意见"},{"start":4703.436,"end":4719.568,"text":"但是基本上您刚讲的问题我觉得基本上问题也不大其实差别也不大第一个就是说辅导改先辅导改正那如果你们觉得说没有这个必要的话那主管机关另期限期改正没有写辅导改正也可以"},{"start":4720.529,"end":4735.179,"text":"因为要不要辅导改正我觉得都还其次那至于你刚刚讲的快速通关这个部分我觉得你们刚刚也讲说只是你们对金额的部分有点意见对不对所以金额会动对不对那我认为就是说"},{"start":4735.959,"end":4761.129,"text":"这也是你今天不定也有不定的问题你定了有一个明确化的依据那定了以后明确化依据如果说真的有什么要浮动调整的那也不会是短期间的事情也不至于马上有太大的变动所以我倒是认为说前面我已经也有你们的意见我采纳了一些那这部分我觉得其实影响没有那么大你们自己都讲其实几乎没有评鉴不过的嘛"},{"start":4761.849,"end":4776.682,"text":"那這種情況之下的話實際上這個部分也是安一些新聞業者的心啦好不好那如果這樣的話我覺得就我們這個條件就達成公示大概也不用再花時間再掃免可以嗎我有意見來我們選委員"},{"start":4777.97,"end":4796.648,"text":"第一個我還是堅持這一定要放上去了這什麼快速通關你們NCC現在做的事情我們也不相信你們快速通關是你們自己的行政規則你們隨時都可以修改所以最好是把它明寫在裡面那我要講就之前因為當時我提的修法的時候那時候是執照期間是六年"},{"start":4797.208,"end":4821.003,"text":"所以就说是办理评鉴的前三年之内不可以就是有受处罚超过三次然后累计金额不可以超过八十万因为现在已经拖到延长到九年了所以反而这个部分的话办理评鉴前三年等于说六年之内他的办理的前三年他坦白说这个现在的条件是比之前更宽松"},{"start":4823.575,"end":4847.8,"text":"對然後如果說是這個沒有意見的話就第二項就維持那我也不去修改裡面的條件內容因為坦白說現在這樣的規定是對於衛星業者來講很容易就達標的很容易就達標那麼至於就說如果說真的是有評鑑不合格然後被撤銷處分被廢止他的處分"},{"start":4852.861,"end":4877.406,"text":"可是我認為其實我覺得其實還是要這樣會對於衛星業者比較有保障好 來在討論的時候我這樣子還是我們希望是"},{"start":4879.452,"end":4901.832,"text":"環境是要越來越好劣幣不要驅逐良幣而我們是要保障好的業者就如果說他自己都願意好好的督促自己然後守法或是說守合乎我們規定的話我們就不要刻意的刁難所以我現在先確認一下如果假設17條依照這個羅志強等委員等人提出來的修正動議那就是把"},{"start":4902.893,"end":4930.773,"text":"第三段第一項評鑒結果不合格者主管機關應令其限其改正那就是把先輔導改善這五個字給拿掉那其他的部分就依照羅志強委員等幾位委員提出來的修正動議的文字內容修正通過NCC可以接受可以好 NCC可以接受那國民黨團民進黨團"},{"start":4933.595,"end":4955.035,"text":"可以接受好 那這樣子我們就依照第17條依照羅志強委員等三人修正動議通過修正動議修正通過好那再來第18條一樣也是有修正動議"},{"start":4958.12,"end":4963.539,"text":"應該是在同一份第18條 那也在我們第15頁來NCC麻煩"},{"start":4965.501,"end":4991.924,"text":"是 跟主席跟各位報告新修正的修正動議18條這部分是對應第三項這邊把對新聞台換照申請英語準語換照為原則因為是相對跟前一版有修正動議我們是相對可以理解的可以接受程度是比原來高很多"},{"start":4993.965,"end":5005.589,"text":"我會建議說文字起碼要對應第二條第八款的新聞台這個對應前面第二條第八款的定義部分把它扣連在一起新聞頻道及財經新聞頻道"},{"start":5009.71,"end":5024.383,"text":"所以你指的是文字上來講主管機關應對於新聞頻道及財經新聞頻道換照申請等於是把新聞台這三個字換成法律用語新聞頻道及財經新聞頻道對不對"},{"start":5029.534,"end":5057.082,"text":"等於是大家各退一步啦還是尊重我們主管機關的一個裁量但是另外一個部分也是保障我們現行合法的新聞台跟財經新聞頻道業者所以我們加入就是主管機關應對主管機關對於新聞頻道及財經新聞頻道換照申請逗號應以准語換照為原則句號那後面有個第二項之審酌標準"},{"start":5059.42,"end":5086.749,"text":"也是修正嘛 是不是好 來請教我們民眾黨 民進黨跟國民黨團民進黨團可以接受好 國民黨團可以接受好 為免大家不知道我們還是留個紀錄剛剛陳培育委員比了一個OK羅志強委員比了一個OK好 那NCC也可以接受那這樣子我們第18條就依照委員羅志強等三人修正動議修正通過"},{"start":5090.609,"end":5114.95,"text":"好 再來第19條在第16頁好 NCC麻煩19條這邊因為先前最新版的修正動議是上次在交友會這邊的我們會建議說如果可以的話臨時執照這邊是不是可以不用把它修訂進去 為什麼"},{"start":5115.51,"end":5136.557,"text":"因為當初友林知道設計是無廣跟有限為什麼會設計是有限有限是因為當初是一區一家如果它斷訊或怎麼樣整個區域的收視會影響可是衛廣知道是它只是一個平台上的其中一個頻道而已我們覺得它的必要性是沒有那麼強"},{"start":5138.177,"end":5162.744,"text":"如果假設一定要放進去的話它既然是參考郵廣法的我們會建議比照郵廣法的立法的方式就是說這邊 修正動議這邊寫應發給臨時執照郵廣法那邊是得發給 應改成得然後郵廣法那邊是最長不得預一年那這邊是兩年 我們會建議說"},{"start":5164.564,"end":5176.615,"text":"我們第一志願是說不要修啦如果要修就比照油管法因改成德 兩年改成一年來 我們在場委員針對第19條"},{"start":5179.69,"end":5204.791,"text":"我觉得这第19条我前面其实很多部分我相信那个NCC也看到一些部分我们都有很多的协商但第19条坦白讲是我认为我的提案当中重中之重那大概理由我们大概已经说了大概几百遍了所以今天我个人是觉得就保留吧我觉得这个部分我们这边我这边是坚持按照原来的条文谢谢好"},{"start":5208.732,"end":5235.531,"text":"我們在場委員有沒有其他意見好就還是要給韓國院長的事情做就對了沒有辦法今天就改變了沒問題好沒有啦因為如果說真的沒有辦法有共識我想我們就聚焦那NCC可以在這一段時間如果說能夠溝通再溝通那如果沒有辦法溝通的話我們之後院長協商好不好那第19條我們就保留送院會處理那再來第20條"},{"start":5238.975,"end":5255.412,"text":"對 第二十條因為已經在本屆第四會期第十六次院會三讀通過故本次就不予討論修正謝謝其實也是我們之前也已經在院會就已經有處理了好那再來第四十九條第二十一頁"},{"start":5256.892,"end":5265.661,"text":"那跟主席報告 因為剛剛民眾黨張委員您同意第4條不修所以這邊可以不用修好第49條是連帶第4條那這樣子第49條不予修正維持維持現行條文好那再來第50條剛剛也已經修正過那再來是第23頁的第58條之一"},{"start":5280.23,"end":5305.005,"text":"58條之一其實是剛第五條的連帶嘛對 12條之一的連帶對 那是不是如果說改成經營新聞及財經新聞頻道那或自播新聞節目之頻道這後面或自播新聞節目之頻道這表要給刪除對 主席正確就是說剛剛比照第12條之一的修正方式好 主體一樣"},{"start":5306.204,"end":5335.115,"text":"那一樣就是20萬元以下200萬元以下罰還那另限期改善所以我再念一遍第58條之一糾正為經營新聞及財經新聞頻道之衛星廣播電視事業違反 後面沒錯另外立法紀錄上可不可以把它改為57條之一57條之一立法上會比較好一點"},{"start":5335.711,"end":5363.689,"text":"好他應該是五十七條之一是不是好那初期委員沒有意見那我們就尊重NCC的建議那我們就改成五十七條之一的修正好那如果沒有意見的話五十七條之一依照台灣民眾黨團提案修正後通過"},{"start":5365.694,"end":5375.698,"text":"好在23頁66條之一翁小林委員的提案來NCC這邊這是20條的19條的對應的罰則連動的"},{"start":5392.486,"end":5419.497,"text":"因為19條我們保留嘛所以66條之一也就保留好那66條之一保留送院會處理好來整理一下好來各位委員我就稍微是不是要不要整理一下"},{"start":5421.045,"end":5449.531,"text":"馬上會整理出來大家稍等一下我等一下把念一下我們今天的協商結論然後也請各位出席委員簽名畫押好感謝大家一個小時非常有效率而且專業的審查要等一下好不好我們請稍等一下拜託請稍等一下我們馬上請同仁整理完出來"},{"start":5451.633,"end":5458.319,"text":"民眾黨補簽因為剛剛張其凱委員他的那個條文已經修正嘛那另外他57條之一他也可以接受"},{"start":5483.418,"end":5486.621,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":5523.288,"end":5523.908,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5698.178,"end":5705.107,"text":"要保留再去檯面找那邊討論好了再過一點 大家都好辛苦"},{"start":5747.659,"end":5758.07,"text":"好各位委員我們報告一下今天1月12號禮拜一下午2點到3點30分在本院紅樓201會議室黨團協商結論跟依據這個衛星廣播電視法相關修法協商結論一協商通過條文第5條第10條增訂第12條之一17條18條"},{"start":5770.482,"end":5789.684,"text":"第五十條及原真定第五十八條之一條次修正為第五十七條之一如附件一二維持現行條文的有第四條第四十九條兩條均不予修正三保留條文"},{"start":5791.121,"end":5814.854,"text":"第十九條及第六十六條之一兩條條文四 第二十條於一百一十五年一月二日本屆第四會及第十六次院會依建復二讀之委員羅志強等二十五人提案三讀修正通過原不予修正五 其餘均照審查會審查結果通過"},{"start":5817.045,"end":5832.037,"text":"沒有問題的話那我們就請今天出席的協商代表大家簽字12條之一民眾黨那個因為有文字修正他的他的這個這個這個志向的是在哪邊去把他交代"},{"start":5833.517,"end":5860.828,"text":"就協商通過條文那剛剛有念過就是協商通過有修正通過所以第5條第10條增訂第12條之1第17條第18條第50條及原增訂第58條之1條次修正為第57條之1所以這個文字有修正就請剛剛依照我們審查的這個內容好不好好沒有問題的話就請各位代表簽名感謝"},{"start":5868.786,"end":5871.847,"text":"好 那今天協商到此散會 感謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":5900.674,"end":5902.89,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"167022","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0e0269be2cadccca6b4bfe832d32782da61002d6f89771a8486cf5dcbc0b7422b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:25:21 - 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警察假如是我們5.56同用跟7.6都是跟我們維持的 也是要我們採購因為剛剛提到了就是說 現在你面對的敵方包括我們自己國軍 我們都開始有防彈背心了就傳統的鉛彈頭啊 貫穿力是不夠的 因此你才有鋼心彈但在過去大家沒有提到這一點"},{"start":90.689,"end":119.81,"text":"那我举例美国陆战队学校在Quantico他们每个人一年的年度训诞超过500发所以未来很明显的我们的训练除了陆军的发射弹药在增加以外海空军的基本上在基地防卫的训练的弹药也在提升所以这个如果大家能够做更明确的表白表示这个钢心弹头跟以前是不一样的那这个时候外面的老百姓就比较了解了"},{"start":120.795,"end":145.725,"text":"我們現在就是打算就是說訓練用彈就用在射擊的時候就把它都推成掉以後我們就只生產甘辛彈我這邊列一個表就是根據我們國防部這個四年期總檢那麼做出來的我也算是花了一番功夫把裡面都降讀了那我們在下面就是"},{"start":147.182,"end":172.751,"text":"建议具体的规划江财宁讲了不只是军备局中科院商购外购建立整体的能量那要强化整体的供应链这个时候重要作战区预知后勤的补给站提升运输效能在运输强弹药的同个时间软性的问题就是我们的急救伤患尤其是在弹药库的附近了"},{"start":173.547,"end":195.951,"text":"那个急救伤患同样我们的雪江配合这个案子要增加就是统合民间的物力人力资源资源竞速作战同时我们也强化这个一位的资源那跨部会强化关键基础设施同时维持社会核心的机能跟政府运作那下张图表就是我们战死国军的维持力啊"},{"start":197.253,"end":211.5,"text":"原則是維持作戰部的彈藥無虞在有限時間內確保儲存的這個安全儲存滿足部隊的需求這裡面就產生了彈藥庫本身的電力供應因為"},{"start":213.117,"end":232.724,"text":"彈藥庫的安全是很重要的它的緊急醫療這個戰傷的幫助要在附近另外通往彈藥庫的道路電網或者緊急發電機甚至機動發電機這個部分也是要能夠在配合這個案子同步強化並不是指一個儲存量"},{"start":234.104,"end":257.071,"text":"彈藥庫的內部很深,如果沒有電,用人力是沒有搬運的,所以並不是光步槍彈,這個時候就涉及剛才講的大口徑的砲彈。大口徑的砲彈在年度訓練過程中因為射程近,所以中間有部分送藥打掉了,結果你整體的彈藥就不能夠用了,因為你不能發揮到最大射程。"},{"start":257.771,"end":278.122,"text":"所以这个时候的送药的就像您讲的那个配合产制这个时候要强化可是呢因为平时的演训啊我们的射程都是展示型的这个1500码2000码所以都看得见爆炸点所以你送的送药的几号送药消耗的特别大而其他的送药呢留在那边"},{"start":279.002,"end":299.816,"text":"保存的时间又不一样了所以这个时候在未来尤其是特种火炮这个弹药储存配合训练用的因为这个时候不是光弹头了这是送药的组合不是药桶式的那大口径的是这个样子我想大家了解尤其是外岛的像240基本上你现在是"},{"start":300.817,"end":326.102,"text":"送药是不够了那在这个里面就强调不只是硬体包括国军后勤这个补保运位的人力人力要增加因为你弹药的需求储存量增加后勤的人力相对的要增加要确保道路交通重要道路的畅通这个部分是不是在配合这个全案建案的时候后勤人力有成长"},{"start":329.363,"end":357.603,"text":"委員好 向委員報告我們後勤的人力一直持續在檢討那當然現在因應這個缺員的狀況下我們即便增加了員額可能也不一定有人但是我們現在一直在朝這個方向在努力同時您剛提到連外的道路部分以及交通運行的部分這個部分國安會現在也有重視以及跟美方的研討之後有非常多在道路交通暫時的時候如何管制以確保我的部隊調動我的後勤補給資源如何有道路使用的優先權這部分都在檢討"},{"start":358.598,"end":366.464,"text":"好 謝謝最後一張圖是強調我們的韌性就是說我們台灣之盾當然面對有挑戰與考驗"},{"start":368.137,"end":396.874,"text":"那敌方现在对我们威胁最大的反而不是东风系列的战术导弹是他现在卫视系列的火箭因为射程够远了那么数量够多了那我们在防卫作战的时候用现有的精准武器去拦截这个耗损率太高因此在台湾之盾这个未来的规划里面整体运用下就是说武力的分配我们先看一下这是培洛西来的时候"},{"start":397.694,"end":421.113,"text":"这个时候打的还是各位看的这个是打了11枚东风导弹那在这一次中共演习的时候就是打火箭了北部打了17枚南部打了10枚但是我希望我们未来在演习在内部做模拟的时候想象一下如果他今天"},{"start":422.17,"end":449.393,"text":"全部是用这些远程火箭精准火箭做第一批的射击那你在台湾之盾有效的指管联合这个目标分配情况下有没有足够的弹药或是哪些地方你认为你能够承受我们比方来讲这是一个模拟的那不只是对了我们的地面的基地海空军的基地陆军的指挥所雷达站"},{"start":450.868,"end":474.214,"text":"我们未来的储存位置就像刚刚你讲的也变成了目标了所以在这种情况下我们台湾之盾怎么样要做更有效的整合这下面你可以看到未来的火箭它是以量取胜它有足够的射程这个时候如果我们不能有效分配目标"},{"start":475.242,"end":486.228,"text":"或是建立一些假目標讓他消耗我們有限的武器啊就變成效益不能發揮了所以台灣之盾本身呢在這個整體規劃裡面"},{"start":488.971,"end":518.03,"text":"不只是远程的中程的近程的到点防御的那整体的网络那结合整个过去讲CCISR后来C5ISRT现在还C6I都出来了但是整体来讲这个网络其实就是让你的中心可以左右移重心可以前后调节所以去中心化不是目的是你的方法手段要有一个完整的网络架构那这个时候啊"},{"start":519.076,"end":538.193,"text":"我们才能够防卫所以现在的今天虽然谈的是弹药持续那不只包括火箭飞弹这个大型炮兵新武器甚至步枪子弹但是最后在这个威胁情况下这个网络如何能够发挥有效的效果中科院您做个说明"},{"start":540.907,"end":552.026,"text":"這邊回覆委員在台灣之盾的設計裡面當然第一個我們是會去強化我的每一個接戰的效率讓我的每一枚彈藥都能夠達到最精準的接戰第二個就是"},{"start":553.106,"end":575.328,"text":"我們也不會讓他的火箭在發射之後他就肆無忌憚的一直發射我們一定是在他發射之初我們也會有相對應的措施來阻止他能夠有效的發射第三個就是針對每個火箭它的威脅性我們要去評斷哪些是我可承受的損失哪些是我必須一定要接戰要把它攔下來的這個在台灣之盾的設計裡面這三點都有考慮在內"},{"start":576.503,"end":591.269,"text":"里面提出一个建议就是说因为他的火箭军部署的范畴他的射程超过我们你可以摧毁反制摧毁一部分但是还有一部分是超过射程之外的这个时候未来的新来的这个海马斯或者是真诚的"},{"start":591.789,"end":607.951,"text":"看怎么运用所以这个里面又结合了情报的一个是机动目标的位置第二个是固定目标的位置这个都要把它纳入台湾之盾我们在这个议题上需要一个长时间共同努力也希望确实落实这个专案的效益谢谢各位"}]}},{"id":"167019","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167019","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0263ff5b6e25265fee6ea9f55fbd6b87561002d6f89771a84c2d5238c042452c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:11:45 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謝謝主席我今天有兩項提案第一個提案是擴大預防性羈押的部分那就是刑事訴訟法101條之一那目的就是要保障社會安全第二是限制審判中"},{"start":23.737,"end":41.438,"text":"也就是檢察官已經起訴了然後現行法卻還可以無限抗告的刑事訴訟法404條目的是要確保法院的公平審判我先提第二個的重點是檢察官起訴後的法院審理期間並不是包括到檢察官偵查期間"},{"start":42.819,"end":62.091,"text":"首先對刑事訴訟法101條之一的預防性羈押這個是一個司法院跟法務部都贊同所以也就是這個部分比較沒有爭議因為現行的預防性羈押還有漏洞他對於一些新興的犯罪其實他的那個規範保障的範圍還不夠所以我要求"},{"start":63.232,"end":81.839,"text":"修法的部分能夠加入第一個 針對詐欺集團的部分第二個 針對性暴力的部分第三個 針對組織犯罪的部分那有關詐欺集團的部分呢因為我們看到像台版的簡樸在案其實他把這些人當作豬仔一樣這樣子凌虐 然後囚禁他們"},{"start":82.719,"end":104.79,"text":"所以這種的犯罪集團其實我們在偵查中我們就希望說對他們予以羈押而且也防止他們交保之後繼續騙或者是繼續欺負這些被害人第二個性暴力的部分那我們看到像創意私房 台版N號房等等的這些數位性暴力的犯罪這些人 被害人其實很大比例可能是我們的好朋友或小孩"},{"start":105.629,"end":129.394,"text":"那這些案子呢 被害人最怕的就是被告交保之後繼續散佈這些私密的影像所以我們希望透過羈押去斬斷他們的犯罪工具第三個 對於組織犯罪 很多幫派的火拼 恐嚇其實它是具備高度的暴力以及反覆實施的狀況所以我認為這個必須要加入到預防性羈押裡面"},{"start":130.494,"end":149.863,"text":"這個修法的目的其實就是要保障每一位國人尤其是針對這些比較容易反覆實施的案件我們希望能夠擴大預防性羈押對於人民保障的範圍第二個我們要談的是刑事訴訟法404條也就是案件起訴之後要限制檢方的抗告權"},{"start":151.192,"end":170.771,"text":"那我看法務部的報告是反對這次的修法他認為說會阻礙真實發現也就是會妨礙檢察官去發現真相但是我覺得這句話完全不合理而且是完全自我否定檢察官的職責我的草案是針對起訴後審判中我剛剛已經強調了不包括起訴前"},{"start":171.972,"end":188.892,"text":"那法務部呢各位檢察官因為經過長時間的調查終於把被告破獲而且當時在偵查中也羈押了偵查中羈押有四個月那既然已經起訴了其實理論上已經依照刑事訴訟法規定代表你們已經收證完成了"},{"start":189.813,"end":205.615,"text":"那這時候為什麼還會有這個發現真實障礙的問題呢那如果會認為有發現真實障礙的可能性就只有兩個嘛也就是說你們起訴前就沒有查清楚而是草率起訴這是第一個第二個你們想靠壓人取共來逼他認罪"},{"start":207.076,"end":234.401,"text":"但是如果押人取供這個不是司法爭議啦這是凝虐的啦所以甚至去年啦在法官論壇裡面只有法官進得去的法官論壇也有很多批評的聲音啊他們認為說案子竟然已經起訴了審理中羈押與否這個就是法官來決定就可以啊檢察官在這個時候呢該做的事情是你起訴的時候你再交給法院人犯交給法院法官接押的時候你必須在那個時候要把這個"},{"start":235.501,"end":251.866,"text":"被告需要繼續接押的理由寫清楚就好或者是你要實質的到庭論告現在很多檢察官起訴了就把卷證資料丟給書記官然後書記官去把卷證和人移到法院去然後法官在開庭審理要不要接押的時候檢察官根本不到庭啊"},{"start":252.826,"end":273.776,"text":"這個是現在的問題嘛那你不到庭你不去告訴法官他有接押的必要性後來法官沒有押了你又出來跳腳說要趕快抗告所以這個部分呢我們認為說檢察官既然你起訴那一天其實代表你偵查已經終結了那個時候你就應該要把相關的證據資料交給法官那不能說法官"},{"start":274.716,"end":303.916,"text":"要不要壓人你說這跟真實發現有關我覺得這個是否定掉刑事訴訟法裡面對於檢察官自我的要求所以是去年在法官論壇裡面很多法官就在批評這個制度他認為說不應該讓法院審理的時候檢察官在法院審理的時候還有抗告權因為這一次一次的這樣子抗告而且是無限制的無抗告期限無抗告次數限制的這個"},{"start":304.876,"end":324.871,"text":"無限的迴旋其實是架空法官的獨立審判而且是逼著法官你一定要給我押因為你不押我就繼續抗告抗告抗告到有一天你煩了那有一些法官也認為這個無限的抗告其實也侵害了他獨立審判讓他沒有辦法花心思在審理上面而是整天在看這個抗告"},{"start":326.312,"end":343.845,"text":"所以這個部分我們希望說這也要來修改而且不應該因為無限期的抗告而讓整個訴訟的制度拖慢所以我們希望檢察官是用證據來說服法官而不是在程序上面一直吵一直抗告然後搞到法官改口為止"},{"start":344.545,"end":366.887,"text":"否則無限抗告其實就是一種無限的施壓所以我要求修法不是削弱檢察官的權限而是我希望把羈押放到刑事訴訟法上的正確的位置這個沒有侵害檢察官的權利所以我希望第一個起訴的時候檢察官就必須把羈押必要性說清楚你擔心有逃亡串證再犯"},{"start":367.648,"end":391.339,"text":"等等的問題 第一個你要具體說明第二個 起訴接押庭的時候檢察官要去實質的攻防你如果你不去到庭 法官放人那是你自己不願意努力那怪不了任何人 所以當接押庭的時候檢察官要到庭 自己把話說清楚那辯方也能夠當庭的回應這樣子才是對的 然後讓法官聽完做一個"},{"start":392.539,"end":420.199,"text":"有意義的下一個裁定第三個審判中的羈押決定是回歸法官公平審判才是正道我們不能讓這個程序是無限循環以及無限循環所以我今天提了兩個案子就是第一個透過預防性羈押來保護社會安全第二個我們要透過限制無限期的那個無限的抗告次數我們來保障審判的公平那我認為該押的就押該處理的犯罪就用力的處理"},{"start":421.08,"end":426.877,"text":"社會正義展現就在這個地方我們不要用壓人來取共我們要展現的是司法的正義好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167021","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167021","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0b7419dfdeb851a79b4bfe832d32782da61002d6f89771a84f151987b109fadff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:13:07 - 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有請顧部長有請顧部長是 羅揚"},{"start":11.463,"end":25.155,"text":"部長早安剛剛報告有提到就是說我們國軍的彈藥籌貨來源有國內自製也賦予對外軍購或商購等多元的管道的各種方式來取得那前陣子有關於這個5.56公里這個鋼芯普通彈的這個外購價格被抨擊說買貴了"},{"start":33.402,"end":38.086,"text":"因為說20年前經費局賣給美國每一顆只有6塊錢然後我們現在對外購買我們的單價高達18.86元那針對這個質疑到目前為止我都還沒有看到國防部有一個正式的說明而且我們也被質疑就是說我們明明有自己資產的能力為什麼還要跟國外來購置這個部分的話是不是請部長在這裡具體說明一下"},{"start":62.926,"end":78.181,"text":"我先說明一下 跟美國那邊的合作主要是因為美國提供發射藥 抵火 包材 還有運輸我們只做彈頭 銅殼跟組裝的部分"},{"start":82.054,"end":105.95,"text":"所以二十年前的部分是這個六派期間嗎有一個時間點是九十四年到民國一百年一個是一百零一年到一百零九年那這兩個都是由美方來提供發射要抵火跟包裝材等原料而且還有提供運輸等等那這個部分呢我們在"},{"start":108.572,"end":128.431,"text":"205廠他所負責的是只有彈頭銅殼跟組裝的部分那跟委員再進一步報告一下就是說我們這一次有對外來採購這一次有對外來採購因為大家都在問對外採購的這件事情我先說明一下那個價格的部分現在絕標價格應該是可以公開的所以我們現在是15.5315.53"},{"start":133.275,"end":140.243,"text":"15.53不是說原先報導所講的是18.86那個是預算金額那是預算金額決標的金額是15.53那麼我們有本來就後置式核定的這個提供的入境的價格是16塊"},{"start":149.588,"end":177.369,"text":"一把所以我們對外採購並沒有比較貴這個要說明一下因為這個這兩件事情是不一樣一個是當時跟台美合作的這個這個是一件事那我們現在要自治軍備局有生產這個5.56的鋼琴彈這也是事實那另外跟委員報告一下之所以要需要是主要是這樣就是說因為我們從111年起有我們要涉及的這個"},{"start":178.644,"end":181.565,"text":"涉及的訓量已經從111年起由每年的2340餘萬發已經提升到去年是5881萬發就是2340萬餘發到5881提升了2.5倍"},{"start":201.724,"end":230.074,"text":"那所以我們現在一方面軍備局要擴產整個的產線那擴產整個的產線會在今年會陸續但是這個相關有一些底火的部分或者是還有一些現在可能是一個產線只能做一種彈那現在要把它拆成四條線那這個部分也其實是放在那個"},{"start":231.73,"end":250.068,"text":"特別 敵火放在特別 或者軍備局再跟您跟委員報告 這個也是上禮拜跟馬委員都報告過了我們原本光中雲區的生產線會用貢線大概一年大概是兩千多萬發那現在已經請中科院來維治FN的產線有四條線 一條5.56 今年三月會全量產"},{"start":257.935,"end":275.653,"text":"7.62跟9公里手槍跟50機槍的槍彈是放在9月那這個達到之後就跟上次馬文君委員給我們指導的4000萬發5.56那這個量都沒問題的只是說要應付暫時我們的敵火我們原本我們的救線的敵火是大概2000多萬"},{"start":276.634,"end":299.291,"text":"我們一定要提升到四千多八千多所以我們特別預算有特別編了一條抵火的線前一陣子不是有媒播出來說我們跟大使國際有買了四億顆嗎我們是為了要建置中間我們怕各軍種的量產所以我們購進來的實際上我們還是要爭取特別預算有一條就是要做抵火的敬請委員支持以上報告"},{"start":300.432,"end":324.888,"text":"刚刚我有听到部长说其实后面到最后的价格我们其实一颗大概是15.53一颗不是原先所报道的18.86那是对外购买的部分对我想请教今年我们应该也有自制我们的绝标的价格到底一颗是多少我们自制的部分价格是多少因为我有看到111年我们那时候的绝标价格是一颗是9.5块"},{"start":326.049,"end":327.852,"text":"9塊半 是嗎 111年的時候沒有 這個應該是沒有"},{"start":332.981,"end":338.244,"text":"跟委員報告 20年來陸軍從來沒有給我們委制過5.56鋼芯彈那這也是20年來我們因為搬遷的產能不足的調節第一次對外採購5.56鋼芯彈 M855跟馬委員講的沒錯 M855自製的部分 我們自製的價格到底是多少我們自製的價格 現在已經部搬價格就46塊了"},{"start":357.573,"end":360.354,"text":"我們的部分就是16塊我們現在是16塊是不是今年114年1.15開始就是16塊委員講的是普通單因為我在想普通單是9.5普通單是同胞簽我們現在統一陸軍的需求就是同胞綱讓它實戰化"},{"start":382.563,"end":403.377,"text":"OK 好了解所以目前為止的話這個部分因為我沒有看到任何國軍在這個價格部分有自治能力這部分有提出對外的說明因為我們搜尋了很多的資料我想第一時間如果有質疑有被質疑有疑慮我想應該要第一時間就要來說明這個部分對不對這個因為"},{"start":407.48,"end":426.355,"text":"還有這個現在這個要有滴火有發射藥有什麼所以我也是聽了有點複雜所以我們會努力來澄清一下是因為已經事隔這麼多天了我到一直到昨天我們還在搜尋說我們有沒有一些官方的說明說實在的確實是沒有"},{"start":427.035,"end":444.819,"text":"所以才在這裡呢請教部長跟各個單位那再來還有一點就提到就是那個產能的這個部分因為我有看到像之前我們軍備局有評估戰時我國的作戰時日整體單兵步槍的耗彈大約是3.5億顆對不對這是你們之前有提到這個部分嗎是嗎這個部分之前我有看到你們軍備局有在評估這個部分我們軍備局不會評估作戰的需求量這個部分是"},{"start":459.025,"end":466.698,"text":"因為我有看到媒體有報導這個部分到底我們如果是說我國作戰時日的話我們整體單兵步槍的這個彈耗大概是多少我想這個我們現在因為"},{"start":472.369,"end":498.457,"text":"就跟委員報告就是說我首先說明我們在108年的時候為了要配合高雄市的那個部分的一個經貿園區的一個開發所以我們在108年的時候是有曾經有請各軍種來回復我們各彈藥的一個需求那這個時候我們就加速生產然後在100年現場之前來"},{"start":499.857,"end":526.395,"text":"提供了這個含糊各項的需求然後在18年如期產製滿足但是後來就是因為我們剛剛講的我們現在是訓練的實戰化的訓練跟義務役的增兵的關係還有我們14天教召的關係這幾項因素包括義務役14天教召還有這個實戰化訓練都大幅的增加所以剛剛講的那個訓練的這個部分我們就會要來這個"},{"start":528.016,"end":557.156,"text":"已經每一年要發射發出成長2.5倍那另外這個是等於是已經把訓練用的打的彈已經用掉了戰備的量所以我們為了要提升整個戰備的量我們現在要雙軌並行也就是說軍備局要產製那另外也如果有必要的時候也要進行這個外購那至於我們現在評估戰時的整個的量"},{"start":558.257,"end":573.615,"text":"我想可能沒有辦法我想並不是以公開在這邊整個說明因為包括我們的吸行量補給還有等等的我想這個部分我們我們可能私下可以來說明但可能不以公開的來說"},{"start":575.402,"end":591.509,"text":"所以以現階段來講其實我們自己本身的生產的量其實基本上還是不夠所以我們還是需要對外採購是嗎 是這樣子現在按照軍備局的講法是說他特別預算我跟委員報告 按照我們"},{"start":601.013,"end":621.87,"text":"假如產線FN今年都互現了我們的新舊線暫時三班制下去產制我們一年都可以產一億發以上可是一個子彈要配一個低火我的低火是趕不上的所以我要用特別預算編一條低火的線低火的線假如增產完之後那條低火的線到達5000萬平時"},{"start":623.971,"end":633.737,"text":"暫時可以到達七千多萬將近那在原來的兩千多萬加下來我一年就可以生產一億發以上的敵火以上報告OK好謝謝那再來還有就是稍微一點時間我想再給我一點時間我有看到我們這個1.25兆的國防特別條例草案裡面有提到第四條第六項他有提到就是強化作戰持續量能相關的裝備那其實這個是不是就含了這個我們這個戰備彈藥的這個"},{"start":652.11,"end":657.264,"text":"囤儲的這個部分 如果說這個條例一直沒有通過的話那這個部分是不是也受到一些影響 這有說明一下嗎"},{"start":658.843,"end":683.382,"text":"委員好 戰委司司長在這邊跟委員報告我們在這次特別預算裡面除了我們剛剛討論的小口徑彈藥之外另外一個重點事實上是大口徑的彈藥那國軍目前大口徑的彈藥以及大口徑的發射藥是需要大幅提升那在之前我們已經說明過我們要把我們的戰備庫存因應敵可能的各種狀況去做提升"},{"start":684.002,"end":692.066,"text":"那這個數量雖然沒有辦法在這邊公開可是它的額度是相當的大必須要用特別預算來做一次性的採購才有辦法滿足"},{"start":694.701,"end":714.715,"text":"好 不管是這個1.25兆國防特別條例或是我們的這個國防預算我們真的希望在野黨一起來努力那明天呢我們又遇到這個程旭委員會在場也有程旭委員會的陳永康委員請大家一起來支持啦讓這個國防特別條例呢明天能夠順利的呢 覆為來做審訊好 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謝謝召委 有請顧部長請顧部長部長早部長因應這個對岸敵情威脅不斷的提升那也針對我們彈藥籌貨的相關規劃尤其是在這個戰爭的時候高消耗的這種情境之下確實是當前我們這個備戰工作一個重要議題"},{"start":30.177,"end":54.056,"text":"那從國防部今天所報告的內容來看在執行面上我們是目前是以國內自治為主那外購為輔的原則考量到這個國際情勢在現實上的一個困難那除了要結合多元管道強化供應鏈的韌性以外也因應這個新式武器同步納入但要庫存的這個"},{"start":55.718,"end":71.696,"text":"設施優化相關規劃那顯然國防部目前對於如何達成這個彈藥供應不中斷的一個目標也已經有相對應的一個策略但是在這個執行的方式上我想就能夠公開的部分來和部長您做一個討論"},{"start":72.657,"end":95.483,"text":"首先在報告當中我們國防部將結合新式的裝備獲得導入有盟的技術來爭取新式彈藥自主的一個生產來建立我們在地彈藥的一個生產線這對於我們彈藥的持續供應來說是很重要的一個目標但實際上要做到恐怕不是那麼的容易"},{"start":96.806,"end":124.624,"text":"那我想先請教部長就是我們目前向友盟爭取在地共同生產的這個彈藥主要的困難點在哪裡那有沒有辦法來克服請部長簡要說明我想我們有以這個15流彈炮為例的話最主要就是糖壓的不同所以我們現在已經跟美方在開始這方面的合作"},{"start":126.735,"end":142.796,"text":"跟委員報告我們的國產的糖鴨跟美方的不一樣就是說像以藥物流砲而言我們的糖鴨我們的砲是美軍在早期已經計算給我們的砲管比較短那美軍現用的現役的砲管比較長"},{"start":144.578,"end":171.878,"text":"所以它的糖壓比較大那為了我們的防衛的韌性我們台美雙方已經初步的以255流砲因為烏克蘭的戰爭實戰驗證了255流是消耗最快的所以我們跟美方已經初步著手從共同生產255流砲開始然後資訊相當的機敏 不便說明成功之後再推展到其他的武器彈藥 以上說明"},{"start":172.358,"end":201.984,"text":"所以156炮這個目前在台灣是可以生產就對了現在在談了 正在初步下談那因應這個戰訓需求的逐年增加我們這個彈藥庫存的這個量能也應該一併要提升那在這次這個報告當中同樣有提到要優化我們國軍彈藥管理及儲存的設施以強化作戰的一個持續力那針對這個部分我想了解的是我們在現有的這個人員之下怎麼樣來提升"},{"start":202.484,"end":208.75,"text":"我們庫儲設施的量能和彈藥管理的相關方式"},{"start":209.828,"end":234.077,"text":"包委員我們針對敵情威脅的抖聲我們目前針對彈藥是配合我們整個作戰的部署的方式來進行全面性的提升那各位可以看到我們在先前的國土安全任性裡面已經編了一部分的錢去整修我們的彈藥庫那其他的部分我們也會依據我們"},{"start":235.738,"end":249.452,"text":"這個分區配置混合囤積加大眾生進入地下這個原則部署在每一個地方然後依照他的需求去建各種不同的形式的彈藥庫來滿足未來我們整個防衛作戰的需求"},{"start":253.459,"end":269.697,"text":"另外向委員報告我們在整體的後勤的部分未來我們也會採機動化運輸的方式在即將遭受攻擊前我們會把原有的庫儲彈藥做前推預制同時採用機動化的方式在平時的話我們會用我們建制車輛暫時的話會結合民間的力量來共同執行這個機動化運輸後勤"},{"start":273.387,"end":295.029,"text":"好那談到這個運輸我想先請教一下在這個戰爭的時候是這個彈藥是高消耗的一個情境那為確保我們迅速而且能夠快速的把這個彈藥運輸到這個需要的位置那我們在推進的過程裡面我想請教是"},{"start":296.17,"end":310.061,"text":"這些彈藥離開庫房在運送的過程當中我們要如何來確保它的安全性這第一點那我們目前負責彈藥運輸的這些運具是否足以應對這個敵情的一個威脅報告 第一個我們在彈藥運輸的時候絕對是檢派專業的人員隨車來押運第二個在"},{"start":318.513,"end":341.172,"text":"任何的彈藥執行運輸之前我們會有機動路線的選定應變計畫的測定以及細故檢查安全措施等等同時如果必要的話我們必須要申請路權至於第二個問題剛剛委員提到的建制數據現在是足夠的當然是因應平時的狀態下那在暫時的部分如同我前面所說的我們會結合民間的力量以及動員的車輛共同來執行"},{"start":342.833,"end":356.469,"text":"好 我覺得這個回答應該是比較制式的啦因為我們如果在戰爭的時候我相信我們的後勤車輛一定是被這個敵方所鎖定的而且有可能是針對性的"},{"start":358.035,"end":380.511,"text":"我們在許多的這個演習過程裡面也都驗證在這個暫時我們這個運輔的車輛的這種安全性應該是要相對應的提高啦這部分我是提醒啦就我們後續在這個相關的這個演習當中可能這個部分要更加的這個委員提到可能就有兩部分一個部分是屬於暫時的交通管制這個會在暫時成立這個"},{"start":382.132,"end":402.45,"text":"聯合運輸指揮處然後第二個是屬於數據的部分那這個部分牽扯到全社會防衛任性也就是說我們現在跟各部會相關所掌握的這些器具跟能力我們要做相關的一個管制那這個部分是軍民到時候就要一起合作的好"},{"start":403.231,"end":431.246,"text":"那這部分也是考驗到我們後勤的這個暫時應變的能力這個部分再請我們國防部再留意那另外剛剛也有提到就是彈藥庫的整建整建的部分那我們看到一個非常重要的一個軍事設施的一個投資案是為了要反制共軍在紅色海灘進行登陸作戰的一個威脅預計在這個我們編列的98億餘元要就近"},{"start":432.186,"end":460.894,"text":"興建這個彈藥庫和彈藥的整修所讓海岸守備的這個部隊能夠就近整補彈藥有持久這個作戰的一個能力那我想請問部長就有關這項這個計畫建置的內容跟期程以及我們在紅色海灘就近興建彈藥庫的必要性為何並且這是一個跨年度的一個計畫如果今年預算未能順利通過的話是否有這個相對應的一個替代做法"},{"start":461.674,"end":488.408,"text":"跟委員報告 國軍沒有規劃在紅色海灘興建彈庫相關的設施都在安全的規劃下是在現有的營區內整建沒有在紅色海灘要興建彈藥庫的規劃那就是現有的我們彈藥庫要做提升就對了我們像以這個任性預算的話我們就以既有的彈藥庫整建作為優先考量興建彈藥庫的部分也會是在既有的營區之內"},{"start":489.969,"end":519.187,"text":"那我們這98億就是要這個經費是用用途就是用在這個現有彈藥庫還是還有我們現有的營區去做營98億是指那兩年的那個韌性的預算那都是在整建整建彈藥庫那另外由於這個中小型的這個無人機齁在戰場上的運用齁有這個消耗量比較大有的可能拿來做一次性的供給就是有去無返啦齁那"},{"start":520.989,"end":528.038,"text":"這個迭代更新又相當的一個快速包括先前美軍就已經將部分的這個無人機歸類為消耗品而我們這個陸軍應該也已經將無人機轉為耗材或是彈藥而不是裝備"},{"start":535.675,"end":550.441,"text":"這可能讓我們採購的流程更加的加速也展現我們想要發展無人機的一個決心但是我想和部長您討論的是國防部先前所採購的這些無人機陸續已經交裝了未來也會持續大量購置新的無人機"},{"start":551.101,"end":569.134,"text":"那我們無人機庫存這個設施整件的速度是否能夠跟得上膠裝的一個期程那和我們傳統彈藥庫相比的話尤其無人機裝有這個晶片和電池我們如何來強化對無人機的一個庫房的一個保護和管理"},{"start":570.756,"end":599.355,"text":"我想首先說明我們現在已經將這個123類型的無人機已經列為消耗品那攻擊型的這個無人機也把它列為彈藥那來處理它那至於這個無人機庫儲的一個設施的一個準備因為看每個無人機的一個情況不同因為從FPV一直到這個自殺式的投彈式的所以我想整個庫儲我們會按照無人機的這個"},{"start":602.318,"end":625.539,"text":"種類 狀況 我們來做一個世界的一個庫儲的設施的整備好 那如果以這個俄烏戰爭的經驗來觀察我們小型的無人機穿透率大概只有10%那消耗量相當的精準 因此能否快速的生產或是籌貨到大量的無人機這對戰爭的時候是相當的重要"},{"start":625.979,"end":647.139,"text":"那這部分我想再請教部長就倘若在這個戰爭的時候大量消耗無人機我們如何快速的籌貨在國內這個軍民共同生產平戰轉換的這個機制上有沒有已經建立這個機制是我們在這次特別預算裡面就會有一個無人機的籌購的一個計畫那我們主要"},{"start":648.74,"end":673.941,"text":"當然我們講的是現在軍備局公布的四類的攻擊型還有一類的健身型這個部分都是以在地生產然後我們讓它具有一個可擴充性所以會模組化的設計那麼讓它透過跟這個自己研發也好或跟國外合作也好然後能夠迭代創新所以我們會讓這個國內的這個自主的產能藉由我們公安部"},{"start":674.762,"end":685.976,"text":"以及行政院也正在做一個統籌型的無人機計畫我想目的都是在提升我們國防在自主的能量強化我們暫時的韌性"},{"start":688.595,"end":707.604,"text":"好那從這幾個議題我們從這個爭取有盟在地共同的一個生產到這個興建我們彈藥庫房的必要性再到無人機作為這個彈藥使用我想都圍繞在我們這個戰備的一個提升和戰力的一個持續性那這部分也請我們國防部持續"},{"start":708.864,"end":724.917,"text":"這個推進相關的整備工作必要時要向我們委員會來做這個預算的說明的急迫性和必要性以消弭我們許多這個委員可能對於這個預算使用的一個疑慮是好 以上謝謝部長好 謝謝委員指教"}]}},{"id":"167027","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167027","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce047aad5511863114ae6ea9f55fbd6b87589ddda9214312ca759671ad967cd14905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"09:43:26 - 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但是據我了解好像現在是不是兩個機關就這個部分來講是有爭議我想因為照法因為法條上面我記得寫的就是行政院要編列相關預算"},{"start":78.143,"end":92.271,"text":"所以很清楚的基本上就是內政部不照顧退休的警消該編他不編所以剛剛羅委員應該講的沒有錯就這個部分來講的話就是賴政府基本上就是不願意"},{"start":94.098,"end":112.076,"text":"這個提高退休景銷的所得替代率所以到目前為止都沒有編列預算那接下來呢我想再就教就是循序部跟考試院因為我們知道在去年12月27號其實總統已經公布了退休"},{"start":113.457,"end":133.136,"text":"公教人員就是已經公布了這個退休金提侃法案那這個提侃法案裡面呢當然我們法條寫得非常清楚也就是這個退休所的替代率會回到就是112年的水準那麼就這個部分來說其實最重要的目的就是希望能夠讓"},{"start":136.158,"end":159.203,"text":"在107年退休金年改的方案當中能讓退休公教人員的權益能夠讓他止血停損所以我們並不是恢復到107年而是考慮到現在的物價的上漲各方面的因素"},{"start":160.423,"end":173.195,"text":"我們將這個所得替代率回復到112年那麼這個法公布了之後事實上本席發現這個全區部那麼日前所做的這個所發布的新聞稿那麼竟然會認為說在針對113年跟114年"},{"start":179.381,"end":206.872,"text":"已經退休的公教人員他們已經被扣掉的這個退休金那麼為什麼不能夠發還給他們對於他已經易扣的金額已經易扣金額的這個易扣的退休金的差額這個部分難道不應該要依法依照我們的這個公務人員的退休資金撫恤法第37條的規定他基本上就已經回溯到112年了"},{"start":209.588,"end":214.336,"text":"那麼請問考試院還有全區部你們是怎麼樣依法解釋的"},{"start":216.812,"end":239.889,"text":"這個事的關鍵點是在這個法律新修正的法律哪一天生效因為總統是12月26號公佈28號生效在修正的條文中並沒有追溯生效的條文所以在等於是說在12月27號以前我們全巨部這邊不只是全巨部就是我們整個退休金的發放就依照舊法"},{"start":240.569,"end":258.871,"text":"那從生效後適用新法所以它的效果現在的修正文字效果會變成從新法生效起恢復到112年的好 謝謝秘書長剛剛說明我要講的就是你們讀條文你要從第一項開始一直往後讀到第六項"},{"start":260.322,"end":283.452,"text":"你第一項裡面基本上本來就講了本法公佈施行前退休生效者的每月退休所得就是於本法公佈施行後不得超過一替代率上限計算的金額所以我們是修單37條的第6項而且在這個條文裡面本來就已經有了這個回溯的意思否則的話不會講說這個付表從113年之後不再適用"},{"start":284.485,"end":312.617,"text":"那麼同時也講所有的退休之前跟之後就在本法公布施行之前或之後的所有的退休人員他的所得替代率就是停留在112年的這個標準那我們在整個的當時修法的討論的過程當中是非常清楚的可是現在變成你全序部你自己做了曲解的這樣的一個法律的解釋我們這個條文"},{"start":315.211,"end":341.685,"text":"給非常多的法學專家看大家不會解釋成像你們這個樣子的說這個已經把這個現在的退休公教人員已經扣掉的113年跟114年的這個退休金差額竟然可以政府自己扣在那裡不發還你們知道這叫什麼嗎這叫做公法上的不當得利呀你們扣這筆錢是沒有法律上的原因的"},{"start":342.583,"end":360.037,"text":"如果所有替代率都恢復到112年這個對基金損害財富損害比較大的部分我們都願意依法執行的話其實沒有必要去在小地方做這樣的處理但是事實上你的說法就是你為什麼要在這個地方去做歪曲法律的解釋所以這是本心非常感到"},{"start":362.479,"end":379.796,"text":"真的看到考试院跟全序部你们的态度我非常的痛心是很多的公教人员都认为说考试院跟全序部难道不应该是所有的公教人员的大家长吗就你们完全没有爱护公教的这样的一个心情然后呢动不动"},{"start":380.296,"end":393.986,"text":"都是在做這個違反整個法律立法者當時修法本意的一個解釋同時來你們接下來說現在的這個之後的新的審定函你們會什麼時候發"},{"start":396.369,"end":409.634,"text":"大概需要六個月的時間為什麼需要這麼長的時間現在的系統不是就已經在了嗎系統需要修正系統修正需要這麼長的時間嗎這明明 我跟你講現在的新的發的審定還非常簡單就是未來所有的公交人員退休金的支領就是以112年的所得替代率為準你理論上你這個審定牌113年以後的人沒有112年那個數字"},{"start":424.273,"end":439.652,"text":"113年没有122年的数字因为113年以后退休的人他不会有一个112年的数字那还有这个系统不是就是以112年的为准所以如果说他现在也是未来不管任何时候退休的人都要使用的所以这个系统要重新去处理"},{"start":440.017,"end":445.623,"text":"你們本來就在112年就有個系統就有個參數所以我覺得你們現在是把事情複雜化他基本上就是簡單的修一個參數就可以了他不需要像你們這樣還要重新再開發個系統再製作個系統"},{"start":456.696,"end":464.682,"text":"我本心認為說你們現在就是故意在拖延時間我們不用故意拖延時間我們要讓公務同仁有合理的執行時間然後這個宣告我們這次的退休金提侃法案是違憲嘛這個是兩個分開的事情"},{"start":475.362,"end":490.137,"text":"我們要讓現在的公務同仁有合理的執行時間而且我們也參考了107年年改的重新核算時間跟去年警察人士條例之後我們重新核算的時間這個半年推估是合理的是跟委員說明"},{"start":491.383,"end":519.883,"text":"好 那這半年裡面你們多扣的這些退休公教的退休金你們要連本帶利還給他們嗎他們的錢就不是錢你們退服基金你們認為說你們繼續付的錢才是錢嗎如果後面審定出來之後該補的當然要補但是委員您剛剛講113 114年這個部分如果當時立法原意上有希望追溯到113年1月要生效的話"},{"start":520.523,"end":524.688,"text":"在文字中需要表達出來在文字裡面為什麼因為這是非常清楚在我們所有的法案當時修正討論當中以及從我們的第37條38條從第一項讀到最後一項"},{"start":538.41,"end":561.815,"text":"就是所有退休在本法公布施行前退休和之後退休的人所得替代率就是停在112年因此你之前給人家多扣的退休金本來就應該要發還好 那麼當然就是我本心知道你們現在跟行政院一樣就是提起釋憲之後反正能不動就不動所有的審定函然後都能夠拖拖半年"},{"start":563.676,"end":586.207,"text":"我們會透過其他的方式我們會要求如果說你們認為說你們這樣子的退休審定還半年才做出來是合理的話那我們來看看你們未來是不是這個考試院其他的預算的部分我們也讓你拖個半年啊你都不要有錢花啊這不是 這說起來是很荒謬的一件事情明明就是個簡單的事可是你們今天要故意把它搞得很複雜 然後政治化你們的心中還有軍公教嗎"},{"start":591.158,"end":602.287,"text":"重新審定真的需要時間委員施部長您還是大學教授然後來轉任藉調當政務官你不是不知道這些公教人員的心情"},{"start":603.567,"end":618.237,"text":"但是呢 本席認為說你在很多的這個議題特別是在推出性改革的議題處理上面你都沒有將心比心而且呢 處處是刻薄這些公教人員法律的解釋不是你詮訊部的解釋我們的立法已經清清楚楚了可是你們今天還可以硬拗拗成這個樣子讓本席真的是非常的感慨喔我不好是講說你們做的這樣習為非常的無恥"},{"start":633.827,"end":655.162,"text":"我們的生肖日就寫得清清楚楚的生肖日並沒有去追溯到前面去跟委員做這樣的報告總之就是說你們要拖半年嗎 這就是你們的態度 我們的立場我們沒有要拖半年 委員如果妳了解行政事務可以去多問一下我們之前都是用這種標準的作業程序在處理"},{"start":656.002,"end":672.082,"text":"我也去問了相關的系統的開發基本上不需要這麼久的時間好那接下來我要問的就是說你現在依照警察條例另外審定的退收所的替代率你們說已經完成了37790人的案件的審定是所有符合資格的都已經審定完成了嗎"},{"start":672.622,"end":697.584,"text":"根據內政部給我們的解釋符合的資格我們就進行審定那請問這次的有關於內政部移民署的相關人員我想這是內政部的解釋他並不適用那所以現在就是對於內政部移民署裡面的相關人員他們基本上這個不在你們這次合法的推出審定函裡面是嗎是的根據內政部的解釋好所以這個是屬於內政部的問題那今天內政部"},{"start":699.507,"end":712.287,"text":"移民署沒有在 但是人事行政總署可以做解釋嗎當然如果移民署裡面有原來適用警察觀證他當然有 不是全部這有內政部來做解釋的好 有內政部的代表嗎"},{"start":713.829,"end":739.359,"text":"委員好那之前那個群聚部這邊有請我們的警政署針對移民署的部分哪些人可以適用這個警察人員的35條修正的內容那當時警政署有依照警察人員是條例回覆給群聚部就是最後在退休的時候是警察官身份的他就可以依照這個修正後35條來重新擬定他的這個所得替代率那以上報告那所以有多少人呢"},{"start":743.446,"end":744.795,"text":"我現在是講移民署的部分"},{"start":747.779,"end":771.736,"text":"我們可能要再跟移民署確認一下因為今天沒有請移民署好那之後麻煩請你們提供資料給本席因為這次在警察人員條例第35條裡面其實本來有提到有關於移民的這個相關的人員那所以就這個部分的話應該也要合理的應該是在適用警察人員的這個新的退休制度所得替代率提高的範圍裡面"},{"start":772.677,"end":798.243,"text":"好然後接下來的話我想請教的是有關於全序部那麼我們知道在去年10月的時候考試院通過了重大的改革全面調高直轄縣市政府所屬機關職等上限那麼總計涵蓋了590個機關3500個職務可是呢事實上就是在這一波裡面去年的那一波大調升裡面似乎沒有包含公立學校服務的廣大的這個職員我們是以全屆機關為主"},{"start":802.628,"end":815.119,"text":"行政機關為主所以有關於公立學校的相關公務員我想這個部分我們目前你們沒有打算要調生嗎一併檢討啊因為我們現在知道在大學裡面還有高中以下的學校裡面其實還有一些公務員如果有其他的個案我想我願意多了解但是我們這次的調生是以特定的職務做調生並不是所有人都調整"},{"start":829.182,"end":834.685,"text":"本期希望說你們能夠針對就是在學校服務的公務人員的職等要進行一個檢討調整畢竟就是現在在整個公立學校裡面的公務人員的職等是偏低而且長期以來都沒有調整所以可不可以就請你們一個月內給本期一個報告到目前為止在公立學校裡面的相關公務員他們的職等分配已經多少年沒有調整"},{"start":859.1,"end":866.21,"text":"預計未來要怎麼樣進行改革可以嗎可以提供給委員好那麼最後一個部分這可能是跟人種有關那可以請兩位"},{"start":869.135,"end":889.643,"text":"这个部长跟秘书长可以先请回座那么我先要讲的就是说本期在这个前两周去参访考试院的时候那时候其实书记官们大家有反应对于现在书记官的这个待遇还有他们的专业家籍偏低那么同时呢也针对就是有关于记录费的部分"},{"start":890.423,"end":916.3,"text":"那么始终没有办法就提高所以至于现在书记官还有相关的事务官他们离职率很高那么根据公务人员的加挤办法的规定看起来我本来以为是全序部考试院可能会是加挤的主管机关但是目前是属于人事总组这里负责公务人员各个不同职系的加挤对吧对"},{"start":917.441,"end":938.828,"text":"是 那所以你們就這個部分你們會預計要來調整嗎跟委員報告 這個不管是司法院法務部啦所以是有關於紀錄書記官的這個他的專業佳績的部分其實都有持續跟我們人種處在做相關的討論有持續做專業討論 來 我們請王富敏"},{"start":942.472,"end":970.52,"text":"你知道你们这个司法人员的这个相关的记录书记官等等这些标准他们的专业家籍是从什么时候现在是4700元是对这是什么时候制定的这个法务部知道吗我这里的资料民国86年86年的时候制定的30年都没有动啊是可能要请副人事长"},{"start":972.222,"end":984.695,"text":"張富仁市長 是本席去參訪了司法院那邊的法官 書記官 他們的反應修這個專業家籍 也不是司法院有權利可以修對 他們會報到行政院"},{"start":985.475,"end":1011.329,"text":"報到行政院 幕僚是我們人事總署在作業是 所以可以被請王富密回去之後競訴像你們認為要調整的合理的專業佳節待遇然後報到人事總署跟委員報告過去都有非正式的一些討論司法院這部分是還沒有正式的函文司法院過去有沒有曾經有函文過希望能夠調升紀錄費"},{"start":1014.881,"end":1034.241,"text":"對 但是我們就是有一些意見的往返那如果這次市委員會再正式報出來我們會行政院的相關的會審機關再來繼續做研議好 總之我想這個是個嚴肅的議題我希望司法院能夠多幫"},{"start":1037.251,"end":1053.89,"text":"這個基層的書記官還有就是各法官助理啊等等去多爭取權益那麼如果說該調的就要調那麼現在人事長副人事長這裡說因為你們沒有報對我不知道是不是這樣好但是呢我希望就是人事總處也應該積極的"},{"start":1055.211,"end":1061.857,"text":"去調整各個職系的專業家級看起來不是只有司法院是民國86年訂定這個標準到現在很多的職系的專業家級都沒有調升我覺得這是一個嚴肅的問題嚴重的問題希望你們能夠盡量做調整好嗎我們非常感謝委員利用這個機會幫我們爭取"},{"start":1073.587,"end":1087.112,"text":"那只要人事總署他願意支持我們的話行政上我們一定會是那個那個毫無延誕的立刻衝過去申請的謝謝好OK那就這樣子謝謝那就麻煩就是人事長還有可以嗎"}]}},{"id":"167026","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167026","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce019a1e4fefc4f8a7e307671192a7c66aa89ddda9214312ca77fa58c9f4dc8bf975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:50:38 - 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宋署長有請理事長跟宋署長欸 委員長你好 委員長你好 委員長"},{"start":17.788,"end":37.208,"text":"因為少子化的問題我相信是現在是大家都很清楚那一年一年延減而且很嚴重那我相信台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案這個要是說以目前來看"},{"start":38.83,"end":49.558,"text":"除了可以減輕父母養育兒女的負擔更可以給18歲這個青年有低桶金來面對未來的挑戰能夠有更多元的選擇一舉兩得"},{"start":53.567,"end":70.794,"text":"用於未來 反正是職業訓練 進修 創業等等我認為都應該是利益良善包括我們現在美國 英國 加拿大 新加坡他們也都有這些方案可以來供我們學習那個市長你認不認同"},{"start":72.816,"end":88.405,"text":"報告委員我想非常感佩委員對於這個問題的關心那我想少子女化確實是現在我們的國安問題我們應該要來嚴肅面對我想我們都只要有好的政策我們都願意來聆聽認不認同報告委員因為"},{"start":93.942,"end":108.894,"text":"就是剛剛委員有提到英國的例子英國在2005年開辦之後出現了一個問題2011年就停辦所以這裡面有兩個問題第一個就是說裁員必須要先確定我想這是一個有前軀之鑑"},{"start":109.795,"end":128.052,"text":"另外第二個就是說這裡面我們也不希望就是說倉促上路之後造成這一個保護這一個中斷像英國就是後來2011年中斷所以我想這個整個就是利益良善我們都樂見其成可是就是說相關的配套可能要更加小心其實"},{"start":129.033,"end":146.568,"text":"我认为说这个里面在修法内容里面还可以去调这个要是说我们整个国家像过去超增每一年都那么多而且几年下来一兆八千多亿所以说那时候在野党才要求说"},{"start":147.409,"end":167.262,"text":"每個人就是普發一萬那我認為說當然我後面還會再問到我認為說你認不認同這樣的做法嗎你不敢答還不敢答你照理講是你就不要承諾就由部長來就好了對不對"},{"start":168.763,"end":196.554,"text":"因為臺灣未來的整個帳戶特別條例草案要是順利的話當然希望能夠這個各界都來共襄盛舉引入更多的資源來這個臺灣未來帳戶的基金共同來照顧我們的下一代因為現在少子化很嚴重去年才出生率才十萬七千多人是沒錯今年會更少對不對那特別條例第26條有提到主管機關"},{"start":197.714,"end":223.665,"text":"得接受可以接受各界的捐款用於台灣未來賬戶基金甚至於就是專款專用那我請問那個宋署長如果一條例草案假設未來條文三讀通過台積電要是有捐款到台灣未來賬戶裡面我們不管說一千萬兩千萬一億兩億是否可以全額來抵稅可不可以"},{"start":224.085,"end":237.815,"text":"報告委員如果這個基金本身是政府的專戶就相當於對政府捐贈這目前所設的36條規定他就可以全額列報捐贈費用捐贈多少就抵稅多少如果是對政府的話"},{"start":239.136,"end":263.487,"text":"當然就是這樣子那這個底稅有沒有這個金額的上限如果對政府沒有金額上限所以說這個就是很好的一個方式因為有很多甚至於這個連戰他的夫人他說他要把他自己的財產全部都要圈出去他在生日的時候全部就這樣宣布"},{"start":264.607,"end":287.538,"text":"你說其實要捐的人還是很多啦並不是沒有以這個勞保基金109到113年度近5年來整個平均的績效為例收益率平均差不多8.94%最新一次勞保基金績效的公告114年11月底收益率來達到13.4%此外還有114年11月底"},{"start":294.041,"end":318.494,"text":"這個勞保基金這個收益率也有13.697從上述這些資料來看政府基金投資報酬率平均都是6%以上似乎有很高機率可以達成那本席理解說整個投資當然有高有低景氣起起伏伏那我請問那個理事長"},{"start":319.554,"end":347.611,"text":"對於政府基金投資報酬率平均每年6%以上是不是可能的任務還是穩健操作都可以達到目標您的看法呢包委員當然就是陳副委員剛剛所說的這個投資都有風險高高低低啦最近當然台股當然擁擠但是這個我們也不敢完全確保所以我想還是要從比較長期穩健的角度來思考"},{"start":348.683,"end":364.226,"text":"因此這個市長是依照特別條例草案計畫第一筆資金5萬元政府每年每人存1萬元到12歲以6%報酬率來計算18歲後預估整個資金將來可以到33.9萬那可用於這個青年的就學就業職業訓練創業購屋自備款等等"},{"start":376.009,"end":387.348,"text":"那我請問勞動部對於上述這個投資報酬估算是否會認為目標難以達成還是怎麼樣勞動部今天有沒有人來"},{"start":397.743,"end":417.017,"text":"主席 還有跟委員回答一下其實我們基金運用在投資上其實我們長期穩健的所以非常感謝委員剛剛對我們的肯定其實我們在長期的目標是有達到委員剛剛提到的有達到嘛 對啊要是照這樣操作其實也操作得很好可以肯定那要是有這樣的報酬我認為說其實從過去幾年下來"},{"start":422.921,"end":444.879,"text":"你們的整個基金的操作運作我認為都很好而且也受到我們很多勞工朋友的肯定啊對不對所以說整個台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案啦希望能透過專戶的設立來減輕整個父母的壓力投資我們的下一代以青年的未來以減緩子女"},{"start":448.514,"end":472.228,"text":"這個少子女化的整個情況那投資台灣未來的人才之培育如果開戶人喪失我國國籍那個次長開戶人喪失我國國籍本身認為自然不具有這個提領結親由國家補助啟動金來撥補款以及其他收益的資格你的看法呢"},{"start":473.237,"end":478.727,"text":"是 我那個 尊重委員的一個意見我覺得這個尊重委員的意見 謝謝我認為你一點擔當都沒有"},{"start":481.277,"end":505.14,"text":"今天是這個案子過才有啊對不對 案子沒有過根本一點但我是認為你一個身為一個次長喔很多事情你竟然要承擔部長留下來給你來做詢答你就是本身要具有說我今天yes no分得很清楚然後這個案子過我們就照這樣做"},{"start":506.221,"end":532.91,"text":"这个才是担当嘛我们是针对问题探讨问题怎么去解决问题嘛对不对现在少子化的问题确实是存在啊不然的话怎么会提这个问题呢对不对提这个法案呢所以说本席认为如果开户人在未成年期间如果犯刑案刑事案件等等比如涉及杀人啦患毒啦诈欺啦性侵等等重大刑案制止"},{"start":533.57,"end":550.976,"text":"的後續也不應該享有政府補助的資源這樣你認不認同不認同還是不敢答我們認知到也尊重委員的意見對啦你什麼都不敢你等於是有跟沒有一樣好啦我就不問了啦謝謝非常感謝委員的指教謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167024","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167024","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce07b5732c430e32f8ae6ea9f55fbd6b87561002d6f89771a84e588b5cd50b116635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:34:22 - 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謝謝是 黃委員好部長好我們針對這個報導裡面"},{"start":19.471,"end":40.781,"text":"就是我們我國明明可以自產的一個彈藥卻要對外採購並這個延伸了非常不少的一個爭議國人很多關注那我想請教國防部在15億元的子彈的標案"},{"start":41.707,"end":56.992,"text":"我們早能自製外購而惹疫所以我就想請問黎欽這個問題金倍局在兩棟武廠是我國清兵器及各式槍枝彈藥的生產的重鎮"},{"start":57.952,"end":77.562,"text":"但是为了配合高雄市政府亚洲新湾区计划,把原先位于前镇区的两栋武场搬至到大树区、陵园营区、大树北营区及光复营区,并且规划建盖弹药生产线。"},{"start":78.362,"end":102.297,"text":"但是國防部在112年的報告205廠在完成搬遷之後那預計在去年的114年的12月以前就能夠恢復那甚至提升產能但是為了工程的這個延宕到現在的子彈的生產性還無法的恢復205廠什麼時候才能恢復子彈生產"},{"start":106.26,"end":128.617,"text":"跟委員報告我們原來在光中營區的我們是106年我們就開始做了一個的搬遷原本是只有一條生產線貢獻我們把這個舊的生產線會搬到我們新的一個大宿營區同時偽中科院做FM四種彈藥都把它分開就是5.56 7.62 90公里手槍跟50機槍"},{"start":132.82,"end":152.834,"text":"納根委員報告 5.56的這條生產線在今年的3月份會正式的量產 現在在做小批量的測試7.62 9公里手槍 跟5公里機槍是9元那你們整體的規劃裡面 本來是去年的114年的12月以前嘛而且你們所有的之前的報告都非常的完整"},{"start":153.895,"end":171.292,"text":"那今天你們理由在哪裡今天子彈的生產線都出了問題了你們現在在覆蓋了所有一切的問題又把說因為怎麼樣因為怎麼樣那你們之前的計畫都已經報告的非常好啊對不對 理由都是你們講的國外人沒有辦法交代"},{"start":172.489,"end":200.585,"text":"大家都會對你們產生質疑所以這個不是你們要講的嘛今天為什麼是114年的時候本來你們12月底以前就要全部那誰歸咎是你們歸咎還是歸咎了市政府市政府代差代理而且你們無賞無賞撥用給他們使用那應該市政府高雄市政府要負責啊你們為什麼不追究這個高雄市政府然後呢"},{"start":203.834,"end":219.692,"text":"跟委員說明這塊土地當時是有長波用給高市府帶菜帶件是由高雄市政府那既然未完工未完成那是不是你們要歸咎高雄市政府而不是你們來承擔"},{"start":221.735,"end":237.969,"text":"跟委員說明我們跟高市府的新工處我們都是每月甚至我們每兩週都有召開一次的會議那是建議之前的疫情然後的工期然後所以真的是工近有稍微一點的延誤後面都把它趕上來了"},{"start":239.81,"end":256.076,"text":"本來就是我們本來就可以自產自銷而且還要外銷今天我們還要跟人家買子彈我們明明205廠的生產線具有專業而且它的生產絕對是足夠"},{"start":257.156,"end":268.387,"text":"而且甚至可以外銷現在就是因為我們為了配合高雄市政府的這個亞洲新灣區然後他們由他們負責代材代件那我們無償不用給他們使用然後簽件給他們在那個地方發展"},{"start":276.674,"end":303.961,"text":"結果今天的責任歸屬你們不但沒有跟高雄市政府來討論到底責任歸屬是你們還是高雄市政府你們要承擔還是高雄市政府我們現在的釐清就是這個問題啊那你要告訴給國人嘛到底是你們要負責還是高雄市政府你們既然都無賞不用給他們帶菜帶件那就是由他們來負責嘛 是不是"},{"start":304.861,"end":317.092,"text":"你回答我這個問題就好了當委員報告這一塊土地是有償撥用預算是給我們可是工程是由高雄市政府代菜代件這個相對的我們兩方都有責任來共同承擔好你現在的問題出來了嗎"},{"start":320.367,"end":344.746,"text":"對不對高雄不能夠推卸責任你們應該就要從這個角度裡面去追究該付的承擔金貝吉你們自己本身你所承擔的是你們之前規劃延宕延誤你們本來就有責任來對外跟國人交代那另外也是我想請問一下中科院"},{"start":350.142,"end":363.608,"text":"205廠的彈藥新建的產線當初是唯有中科院辦理對不對是好請問中科院長新建產線新建生產線的部分你們是否一約辦理"},{"start":367.16,"end":383.329,"text":"的確所有的產線我們都是依照跟軍備局的合約來辦理但是因為剛剛講的土建工程的延宕所以我們的相關裝備和產線沒有辦法依照原本合約的時間來復現我根據了解關於新建產線的各項這個設備的採購"},{"start":388.294,"end":416.073,"text":"中科院簽約的時間大約在108年到114年間所有設備也都已經購入你們都已經購入照道理講你們沒有責任可是責任在高雄市政府你們一樣你們一樣好好的跟高雄市政府來追討追問責任的歸屬你們不要完全去承擔這樣的責任可以嗎喔 收到"},{"start":418.325,"end":446.823,"text":"跟委員報告 我想第一個我們剛剛就被局長已經說明了在今年都會來逐步恢復產能是第一點 第二點有關這個四五大家再見的部分呢他的這個是不是因為疫情的這個影響我們還要再跟高雄市政府我想這邊還要來進行相關的了解我想這個部分我們都一定會把他理清楚部長不管是COVID-19"},{"start":448.089,"end":470.145,"text":"我們在金貝啟在這個過程裡面的進程進度也應該要跟國人來做一個說明而不是發生之後我們再來亡羊補牢解釋說因為什麼樣因為什麼樣應該不是我們國防部的態度也不是金貝啟的態度你們要有責任是對國人交代"},{"start":471.041,"end":493.912,"text":"我們就應該坦蕩蕩的把問題講出來而不是問題出來子彈的問題生產線為什麼會委外的因素產生了國人非常不瞭解的就是因為這個原因啊我們本來就可以自製生產的而且還是外銷的都可以所以這個就是我們要對外要理清清楚 好不好"},{"start":496.084,"end":518.961,"text":"剛剛有跟幾位委員報告的就是說因為我們當時估算的這個彈藥的這個訓練因為我們現在因為義務役的關係還有教召訓練的增加然後還有這些實戰化的訓練所以整個的訓練的用量已經增加2.5倍所以這個部分當然也是我們現在要緊急籌購的一個原因"},{"start":519.321,"end":534.998,"text":"所以我們現在徵兵不力已經三年多了我想說你們趕快把徵兵的這一些能夠讓這些有對我們國軍有信心讓增加我們的兵力那另外就是我想請問一下部長你的檢法的思維"},{"start":535.979,"end":553.997,"text":"上次我們特別有提到習小新委員跟我一關心國軍文件新的保防規範因為我們都收到來自一部隊的龐大的抱怨跟不滿緊接到這個國會國軍的士氣非常的影響"},{"start":554.878,"end":583.36,"text":"而且也造成了負面的這樣的一個效益所以我想請問一下如果部長在上次說可以調整可以檢討你們我相信你們部會裡面也都有在討論那討論的如何調整找到了一個保房和作業的效益的平衡點嗎請問一下部長你來回答一下第一點當然就是您看到的就是說我們有會診了這個各方的意見之後"},{"start":584.601,"end":607.598,"text":"就這個屬於對不特定人經過審任沒有涉及國家機密或者是公務機密的部分那屬於公開的資訊的話我們就在夜鎖來標示但是我要跟委員報告就是說我們整個資料治理這個整個在數位化的作業環境之下所有有關這些文書的這個儲存"},{"start":610.801,"end":631.955,"text":"傳遞跟運用在這一個不同的這個分級制度之下他覺得是有必要的因為相關什麼樣子的人能夠看到什麼樣子的一個密等的資料還有在不同的網域之間能夠有什麼樣子的一個資料輸入我想這個都是我們資料治理跟整個精準"},{"start":633.793,"end":642.56,"text":"標示的一個最基本的背後的一個原因那如果我們不這樣做沒有辦法跟美方對接我們也沒有辦法共享資訊主席再給我一點幾分鐘"},{"start":645.874,"end":666.03,"text":"講到美方,上週你說明的新措施是一個比照美方的規範以利雙方的交流,但是本身認為即使美金的規範,值得參考我們兩國國軍各有各自的一個風格,外國的月亮不見得是圓的"},{"start":666.67,"end":689.762,"text":"所以國軍也不一定要照單前收應該適度的調整以便更好的融入國軍那所以希望能夠部長你能發揮你的檢法的思維然後真正的簡化這個文書減少無效的作業那另外就是我們在這一次的F16的新興飛官的搜救的情況"},{"start":690.802,"end":719.624,"text":"我們海巡署的弟兄有很多的抱怨那對於搜救的過程裡面有很多的有三個質疑我想請教這三個質疑裡面那搜救的方向錯誤認為海巡未考量黑潮的影響只是在失事的時候點以南海域搜尋措施搜救的關鍵第一個你們只派了100噸級的到黑海去搜救而不派"},{"start":720.945,"end":736.895,"text":"一千噸級的那是什麼一回事那另外是還有很重要的就是通聯通聯是第一個發生之後完顯的所有的掃描跟通聯是非常重要"},{"start":737.515,"end":756.267,"text":"那是不是缺乏了直接的通聯那只能使用國際通用海事異險頻道CH16作為指揮的指管頻道佔用國際海事的異險資源以上這些問題你來回答一下好不好"},{"start":757.228,"end":770.963,"text":"我首先先簡單回應一下就是說剛剛您講那個精準機密的核四部我想我們現在大家都在調試的過程當中我們會陸續收整這個包括官兵還有各界的一個意見我們會來持續來檢討那我們也會以開放的態度來進行"},{"start":776.465,"end":795.462,"text":"那至於有關這個提到我想海軍來先做回答是 委員好 首先跟委員報告我們以本這個救人第一所以我們在事件不幸事件發生之後我們所有的兵力是直接到現場到現場之後我們就會按照小頓數的就是在沿岸"},{"start":796.417,"end":822.245,"text":"大頓數重大陷阱 現在不是嘛因為離岸較近的海域應該是100噸級的離岸以外靠近黑草的因為它的風浪太大應該是1000噸級的來去做搜救啊所以你們海巡官兵裡面的抱怨就在這裡啊"},{"start":823.525,"end":849.472,"text":"報委員 我們的確是禁岸就是35噸跟100噸然後比較遠的都是派遣中大型所以這一次你們只派的到黑草那一帶是幾百噸的都是1000噸跟海軍3000噸但問題是是不是100噸 1000噸沒有嘛沒有 沿岸沒有沿岸所以你們在搜集的過程也應該就第一個在外海已經出了多少次的在花東這一帶"},{"start":850.592,"end":877.953,"text":"一旦發生應該你們第一個概念就是第一我們先派一千噸幾的先派出去近海的一百噸來作為全面性的做一個搜救跟委員報告就是說確實是我們將小型的艦艇在近岸中大型的在外海共同事務這個報導說把這個近岸的部分派到外面去這一件事情跟事實"},{"start":878.553,"end":890.774,"text":"你們要調查清楚 這個是很多你們自己本身的海巡署回報的這樣的一個抱怨我想說大家做一個參考 做一個檢討 好不好是好 謝謝主席 以上"}]}},{"id":"167030","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167030","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0b90aba88e3f7353ae6ea9f55fbd6b87589ddda9214312ca712974bf4722aa1b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"10:01:50 - 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謝謝主席我們請法務部徐次長跟司法院的王副秘書長 謝謝委員長好次長今天跟你討論一下刑事訴訟法第101條關於這一個羈押室友這個有同仁提案要把這個勾串共犯或證人之餘把他拿掉那這一個部分"},{"start":38.953,"end":65.268,"text":"這個可不可以再請次長有沒有一些比較大的這一個通案你們把人不羈押以後放走以後會發生什麼樣的事情謝謝委員那我們現在目前看到的包括台積電工程的洩密案還有凱凱保母虐待兒童案還有我們最近的像跨國炸雞就台版的柬埔寨案還有軍官"},{"start":66.729,"end":90.201,"text":"塗抹駕駛軍機叛逃案還有毒梟議員販毒案這些很多的案子我們一定是有把主嫌犯積壓起來讓他沒有機會跟共犯或者是其他證人來做篡證這個一旦出去的話整個案子的偵查作為一定會受到影響那這個對檢察官來說這個放他出去你們會影響你們偵辦的作為嘛那這個"},{"start":95.253,"end":100.154,"text":"有沒有哪一些是你們也把人家放了結果後來真的出事了不是你們去跟法官申請喔是你們自己的檢察官問完之後就讓他走了然後走了之後就真的那個傢伙就跑了或者那個傢伙就去勾串了那勾串完之後相關的這一個共犯或者證人就跑了"},{"start":123.26,"end":135.728,"text":"我們目前在執行上對這個都很慎重那也都會得到法官的支持所以如果像類似這種要篡證我們有提出具體的事證的說明的話法官也都會支持我們"},{"start":137.421,"end":162.351,"text":"如果委員需要一些比較具體的個案我們是可以提出來不是問個案 我是說這個中間也許會有一些空窗啦有些是這樣 有些是當時沒有發現還有其他的共犯所以一旦讓他交保出去了以後則是沒有羈押他出去勾串的那個證人是我們沒有掌握到共犯沒有掌握到那勾串那個證人沒有掌握到他可能就跑了嘛會跑"},{"start":164.26,"end":189.614,"text":"跑了以後啊 你們就要站在這裡被罵了對對對 那我想到還有一個案子就是不過那裡都積壓起來因為大部分的都會配合我們對 就是如果你們把人放了然後就出事了然後呢 你們就要站在那裡被罵了經常這樣嘛然後又說為什麼放人嘛 對不對好 那我現在請這個司法院的這個副秘書長"},{"start":192.339,"end":211.776,"text":"你贊成這個修法嗎這個我們今天的報告裡頭有提就是說我們事實上是持保留意見的因為事實上世界上各國呢就是說有關於羈押要件一個是保全人嘛就是說被告不要跑掉還有一個是保全證據那那個證據我們都知道證據有物證"},{"start":212.717,"end":233.667,"text":"那也有那個人證譬如說你就把那個通聯這些東西手機的這些資料把它銷毀掉了嘛那還有一個就是人跟人之間的那個串證嘛那串證有各種方式一個是你可能有性的就是去串證那一個是敵性的譬如說像比較那個嚴重的這一種性侵或是暴力犯罪的話"},{"start":234.767,"end":258.976,"text":"那這個加害人他可能又會再一次用暴力的方式來就是恐嚇威脅這些那個被害人比較弱勢的那個被害人那所以呢就是說世界各國我們去看就是說幾乎就是說像我們講歐盟國家好了歐盟幾乎是全部就是通通都有這個保全就是說這個人真的這個部分的羈押原因啊"},{"start":259.935,"end":282.904,"text":"對 那我說 那有沒有現在委員會提案說這個叫兒少有關的預防性羈押就是說他特別列出了幾種就是說我們現在的規定裡頭特別列出這種特別列出來會不會越列越多預防性羈押部分是不是對就是不是勾串那個證人那個部分對 預防性羈押會不會越列越多"},{"start":284.382,"end":309.554,"text":"我想就是說這是隨著就是說這一種那個整個那個犯罪形態的那個眼鏡像有一些像身衛身衛這一種那個的犯罪這都是後來新出來的嘛那如果說有這一種新那個犯罪的話在預防性羈押有必要的時候這個當然就要練那我想他最重要還是在一個必要性的一個控管上面OK 好那兩位請"},{"start":312.096,"end":317.94,"text":"接下來我們請這個考試院 牛肉祕書長跟全序部的施部長委員長這兩天啊 新聞看到說你們現在在訂算嘛算說會減多少的公務人員的退休的數字會改變嘛 有這些的計算可是你也有說這個重新算的時候啊可能還要花幾個月的時間來訂算你的意思是說沒辦法讓人算就對了"},{"start":342.444,"end":364.296,"text":"用人齁 一個個案要很久的啦一個個案要很久的對 我們以前的經驗就是而且人 因為我們 報告委員喔我們整個部裡面就是一個師的一個科在負責啦喔不是我們整個部在做這個事情嘛那你們現在用系統來做我們就是 寫程式對 寫程式 重新在廠商寫程式然後要經過測試 因為這不可以不對嘛你這樣啦 這樣"},{"start":367.697,"end":392.3,"text":"現在立法會如果鄉長再把你蓋起來你以為還要寫程序我們就是只要退休的東西就是因為它是非常精細的那算得準嗎連一格就不可以差嘛因為拿到人審定的會比較減一格那我請問一下這個程式弄完之後這個公務員可以自己算嗎沒有還是我們要發出審定函啦沒有啦他可以自己算嗎"},{"start":394.346,"end":418.047,"text":"你那算的東西就公開給大家看啊不過目前那個因為是內部的資料系統完以後因為主要都離寬了算政府 我們目前沒有這個沒有啦 要個人自己輸入啊可能我們有一個系統是另外一個如果你是按照現在的那個制度的那個退休金喔沒有改以前的啦我們只要提供他們自己方便試算但是那都不是正式的啦正式還是依賴我們啦我一件事這樣啦"},{"start":420.549,"end":446.764,"text":"大家喔 公開透明啦 你們啊 點點啊 怎麼算的公務人員 都看得到他就輸入他自己的資料 他看不見別人的啦可是他看得到他自己的啦這個有辦法嗎我這個 我回去了解 如果我們系統都做好了啦因為你系統也是你設定的嘛對啦 都做好了啦 要不要說讓個人可以自己去查詢這個他的一個一個狀況 好 我了解啦好 來 這個秘書長"},{"start":447.847,"end":475.996,"text":"您這個 上禮拜考試院院會有同櫃說要去釋憲嘛 是啊 叫這個 什麼程式 這沒有衝突沒有衝突 我們就是 這個是兩件事情兩件事情 就它的核限性尋求這個憲法法庭的裁判那另外一方面 但是因為法律竟然已經生效上路了還是要依法去做這個執行那現在這個審定工作就是執行的第一個步驟你也要準備就對了 對準備之後 如果是釋憲說這違憲的"},{"start":478.141,"end":503.578,"text":"那這個就依照這個釋憲的結果來處理就停啊對 如果要 如果釋憲的有結果我們就依照不管他 看他是合憲還是違憲都會依照他的結果去做處理好 最後我是建議這個施部長我剛才說的那個事情就是說能夠當事人他自己輸入他自己的北京資料嘛都在那邊放唸他都用他自己唸嘛算算的 他總是每天看他的數字也開心啊"},{"start":507.725,"end":535.61,"text":"要不然你這樣審定出來 用早期的數字出來我跟你說 你退役金就是多少有時候要用到個位數去他也有重返簿 因為那些都電腦算的要告訴人家 我們政府就算是虧欠他這個事情 因為系統的程式也是你們設定的啦要輸入的參數跟變數也都是你們設定的啦這塊回去研究看看 有可行嗎"},{"start":536.789,"end":550.939,"text":"因為已退的人他本來以前就有一張審定函啦至於我們要重新變更這審定函啦重新變更我們都弄好了來 再了解一下印作的一個狀況有沒有可能性啦 好不好因為他自己也會生啦網路也會幫他生啦網路有很多好事之徒嘛他會幫他生 我在講喔你的剩剩財喔 還會給多少給多少到時候你 你的電腦剩財 減一萬塊每一個個案都來找你"},{"start":565.845,"end":569.747,"text":"說不對 我們這個省財這協會幫我們省財就這樣全市部幫我省財怎麼這樣這一個大家計算的基礎這都公開就是在程式上怎麼讓個人可以自己輸入個人的資訊之後裡面內部的看這種資訊怎麼做資安以後能夠把這個事情讓當事人可以自己先試算然後可能有一些誤差那誤差"},{"start":594.309,"end":600.412,"text":"這個大家都能夠接受 但是有時候要查太多有時候是你的系統設計出問題也不一定有時候是這個當事人 誤解因為網路上現在有時候說了說了斷到不要有時候誤解 都有可能現在也有退休公務人員因為說要退縮到很早很早以前這個網路有人也有人會這樣說雖然提案的這一個委員 去年提案的委員一再解釋 一再解釋說沒有要回到最早啦"},{"start":624.779,"end":644.886,"text":"但是公務員總是會算啊如果回到最早以兒傳兒不夠買都不會太少好不好所以這個計算的方式啊也去研究看看在資安的保全的這樣的狀況之下讓個人來能夠有這樣的了解我來跟同仁 紀總來研究看看好 謝謝多方要考量 好 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大家好本席在今天提出了刑事訴訟法第108條修正的草案回應我國羈押制度長期存在的一個結構性的問題也就是羈押期過長這整個羈押過長的狀態已經逐漸偏離了例外手段的定位而且有一種刑罰化之餘"},{"start":30.103,"end":35.146,"text":"那麼現行的第108條關於羈押期間的規定是從民國17年制定以來將近100年沒有修正那麼依照現行的法制羈押中羈押最長可以達2個月然後審判中可達3個月並得延長但是現在整個刑事訴訟程序也日益複雜那麼案件審理的期程拉長"},{"start":53.698,"end":71.28,"text":"那麼實務上羈押核准率已經也高達了八成以上那麼羈押變成不再是例外而漸漸成為常態那導致被告在未經定罪前及長期受到剝奪人身的自由實質呢是侵害無罪推定的一個原則"},{"start":72.361,"end":94.515,"text":"那麼依照公民與政治權利國際公約第九條第三項以及聯合國人權事務委員會一般性意見第35條羈押應該僅限於具體且必要之情形被羈押者應於合理期間受審判或獲釋那麼我國已經將公約國內法化那麼羈押制度應該要與國際人權標準來接軌"},{"start":98.718,"end":125.697,"text":"所以本案在這個將偵查中那個羈押過長的期間由兩個月來縮短為一個月那麼審判中由三個月來縮短為兩個月並且同步縮短延長羈押之期間落實比例原則與最小侵害原則那麼請各位同仁能夠支持本案讓國家在追溯犯罪的同時也要嚴守人身自由與無罪推論的憲法界限以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167042","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167042","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce08ad81d49aedc4be7b4bfe832d32782da7fca8e6801c49bdd8c09dfcc218e895f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:57:26 - 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我們有請顧立雄顧部長請顧部長議員好部長好那我想一開始的時候呢還是來跟您關心一下這個F16墜毀的這個事件喔那因為有一些內容在記者會的時候沒有被詢問到那後續呢也有不少的這個國軍弟兄在問"},{"start":26.144,"end":42.472,"text":"所以我想先問一下有關於這個MMC的訊號異常那有報休記錄這個部分在1月7號的記者會上面有向外界說明說清查近半年的情況是沒有任何MMC的故障情形的"},{"start":43.12,"end":62.647,"text":"那麼呢 會討論這個是因為非官在逝世之前有呼叫說這個MMC有故障的問題所以大家針對MMC的部分呢那就有在做詢問嘛那所以第一個問題我想說為什麼我們是清查會用半年為期而不是一年為期啊就是說這個時間當時是媒體問的嗎還是說我們自己訂定的呢"},{"start":67.465,"end":89.77,"text":"包委員我們並沒有去設定這個三個月半年那一年兩年其實我們從兩年的資料都去撈全機隊的這個故障我們都有去撈他的資料兩年都撈都沒有嗎可是我這邊看二月不是沒有不是沒有包委員那我問一下這台這台飛機在二月的時候是不是最起碼有三次的MMC的派休為公沒有"},{"start":90.73,"end":112.958,"text":"派工維修六拐洞洞這架飛機就是從出廠它是去年10月以後才出廠到失事當天沒有一次MMC的故障所以它沒有任何一次MMC的維修紀錄所以這個派修它可能是在其他的F16上面有MMC的維修紀錄但不是這架其他的飛機"},{"start":114.499,"end":130.672,"text":"陸陸續續都有這個現象因為整個機隊一定會有MNC故障但是針對這一架飛機從出廠之後到失事當天沒有一次總共有35次的維修紀錄沒有一次MNC故障所以我剛剛講的二月這個部分它可能是針對其他的飛機那不是在這一架嗎"},{"start":131.853,"end":148.019,"text":"那但是我另外要問一下那導致這個抬頭顯示器多功能螢幕上面會有無法顯示或是黑屏的狀況應該不是只有MNC失效才會發生它也有其他的可能失靈的這個相關的一些配件都有可能嗎"},{"start":148.619,"end":166.321,"text":"那是因為它呼叫的時候談到了M&C所以我們特別關注一下那M&C的在這個包含這架以及整個機隊的這個維修情況是如何那也謝謝您剛剛做說明那我問一下這個EGI也就是我們的這個整合的GPS整合式的GPS"},{"start":167.162,"end":195.521,"text":"它在發生異常的時候是不是也一樣會有無法取得正確的導航資訊的問題那比方說在HUD的這種數位地圖上面那可能會有不合理的跳動跟飄移對於我們這種在能見度差夜晚淨雲的海上環境上面產生風險的問題包委員會那我問一下1月4號的時候就這架飛機有沒有派攻EGIFL有有對不對是"},{"start":196.499,"end":207.256,"text":"好 我再講一下墜海的前兩天1月4號的時候有派工整合式的GPS就是這一架六七東東 對吧是那所以說上面因為"},{"start":209.006,"end":236.027,"text":"新上位他是回報說他的高度一直往下掉那沒有狀態可以參考改正所以未來我們等到一段時間之後那在進行這個實事調查的時候除了剛才講的因為他呼叫的內容講到MMC嘛但是在EGI的部分在墜落的兩天前有發生過EGI的fail有做過派工維修那這方面會不會進行著手調查"},{"start":236.967,"end":254.254,"text":"會 包委員 這個我們調查的方向針對他的故障情況會影響到導航的部分我們都是我們偵查的一個重點好 謝謝你喔 調查的一個重點那 我相信我很謝謝你很坦誠的在這邊講因為我覺得大家對於這件事情的態度都是一樣的那 有問題我們就找出問題"},{"start":256.075,"end":274.446,"text":"那能夠坦誠來談到就是說每一架飛機它的這個情況那我覺得這個態度也會讓更多現在在飛的這些飛官他感到是安心的所以非常感謝把這個事情講出來那也希望接下來的相關的調查我們都是用這樣正確的態度去面對它"},{"start":276.167,"end":296.333,"text":"那再來 謝謝 謝謝您那接下來我要問一下是因為我們今天談到的是這個軍備的部分嘛那有關於彈藥籌貨的規劃我們一定是支持國防自主的那在國內能夠生產大量而且便宜的彈藥產能呢 這個能夠符合我們的戰備需求一定是重要的"},{"start":296.733,"end":318.325,"text":"不過我們知道在產線上面其實都是這個約聘僱的人員在做這些組裝啊一些這個處理嘛所以今天想要特別跟您談一下我們的這個約聘僱人員的這個問題首先這個我想要問一下部長我們國軍的約聘僱人員您知不知道有最低薪資的相關規定是如何規定的"},{"start":319.437,"end":345.395,"text":"有需要協助的話可以請相關的單位來給部長一些協助但你們可能走路速度要快一點好不好因為時間很有限我問的問題是我們約聘僱在國軍裡面的最低薪資的規定其實呢是所有中央政府的這個約聘僱人員都是一樣的一致的好來請說跟委員報告目前的"},{"start":346.325,"end":360.675,"text":"是相關的薪資規定都是按照這個跟一般公共交通器官是一樣一樣啊一樣怎樣啊我是問你怎樣不是一樣啊當然一樣啊廢話能不一樣嗎"},{"start":363.49,"end":381.512,"text":"相關的資料我們請支援室來說明一下來說明一下吧我剩兩分鐘的時間我還有很多問題要問你們目前我們孤兒的話薪水大概是三萬八千多元三萬八千多元我想的是他的這個規定沒關係我們直接看"},{"start":382.967,"end":403.055,"text":"我們呢113年12月20號行政院就有發函國防部我剛剛為什麼要問是因為你沒有收到這個函式的通知所以我才這樣問不然其實我都會直接講114年齁你可以看到約僱工友約用人員等基層員工他的月薪應該要高於最低薪資的1.1倍"},{"start":405.377,"end":431.834,"text":"1.1倍所以呢我算給大家聽齁在這個2026年之前呢應該是31449元那在今年開始的話是32450元那您剛講到38000我很懷疑各位知不知道在我們的我們先不跳下一張齁在我們的軍備局裡面401場跟205場真的大家有約聘過人員由領到38000元的"},{"start":435.056,"end":461.541,"text":"薪資嗎 約聘雇人員來講一下好不好我們約聘雇人員的薪資是三萬八千元嗎如剛剛所述各位委員報告我們生產製造中心他第一個他每個月報的他每個月就是領的剛剛我們行政院所規定的約聘用另外他有額外的生產獎金每年最高可以領到六個月以當年他的盈利每年 那他什麼時候發的"},{"start":463.101,"end":491.049,"text":"中秋節發一次 過年發一次不要開我玩笑了隔壁是律師欸 你要不要問一下律師的意見這個是在講說我每一個月的月薪你跟我講說他中秋節的時候會發獎金這是兩件事情喔對 所以呢 所以我要問的事情是我們在401場 205場大家領的是剛剛所說的38000元嗎有沒有領到最低薪資的1.1倍呢來 我給你看一下薪資單好不好"},{"start":492.028,"end":518.229,"text":"往下 來這是我們軍備局的401場的薪資單114年的8月剛剛告訴大家了算下來應該要領到多少錢才合理31449元是最低薪資吧可是他的這個勞保級距你可以看他的薪資單上面是30050不要告訴我只差一點這是合法的問題我們國家做事情要合法"},{"start":518.729,"end":545.939,"text":"再來剛剛很多人在問205場領多少錢呢有29590塊錢的也有31010元的沒有領到第一沒有所謂剛剛講到的大家都領到38000喔第二他低於行政院函式的我們的約聘僱人員要是最低基本薪資的1.1倍所以這部分應該我強烈的要求必須要調整部長請問一下您的意見"},{"start":548.254,"end":568.841,"text":"您的這個資料我今天是第一次看到才了解我想我們還要下去了解一下相關的這些薪資的規範以及他們實際發放薪資的一個狀況其實我告訴你行政院早就發函給軍備局了所以部長您在這個事情不需要看到薪資單才要知道來我們下一張團影片在"},{"start":571.414,"end":585.031,"text":"114年的1月22號的時候我剛剛的表頭是主旨他發這個函給這個我們軍備局講說你的基層員工月薪要高於最低工資的1.1倍"},{"start":586.713,"end":604.248,"text":"那他為什麼會發這個函呢你可以看到第三點這邊他就有要求你們要檢視修正所屬聘僱人員勞動契約工作項目跟薪資以高於最低工資1.1倍的標準來給薪嘛"},{"start":605.356,"end":620.076,"text":"那所以什麼意思什麼意思很清楚的是其實其實你們並不是內部不知道這個情況不然不會發這個寒所以我要告訴您的事情是說這個已經好一陣子了所以"},{"start":621.226,"end":645.686,"text":"合法 合理 符合最低的要求的這個規定1.1倍 它應該要讓我們每一個場的同仁都能夠領到而不是告訴我說因為中秋節有發獎金 它不對喔它這裡 我們這裡寫的是月薪喔 不是含獎金之後喔所以不要拿這個東西來搪塞我那我希望可以好好的下去檢討"},{"start":646.667,"end":654.559,"text":"因為約聘僱人員他確實他們是我們產線上面也非常重要的國軍非常重要的其中一份子部長可以嗎"},{"start":655.746,"end":679.401,"text":"因為這個星之每月的月星的星之結構你剛剛秀出來我還不是很了解所以我想我下去了解它整個月星的星之的結構你需要了解一下結構還有就是有不會只有這一兩位啦我剛剛秀出的有一個人兩個人401的兩個人跟205的兩個人嘛光是我秀出的星之蛋就是有四位了"},{"start":679.801,"end":707.552,"text":"所以實際上我所了解的情況是超過的那我沒有薪資但我不會拿上來當成證據來在這裡跟您質詢但是呢有更多的約聘僱的人員他們是呢真的沒有領到1.1倍然後但他們就反正也就吞下去了想說反正呢兩萬九就兩萬九好了但是我覺得這是不對的事情所以請你們全面的去做一個檢討請問這個檢討需要多少時間能夠給我一個正確的答覆"},{"start":708.735,"end":724.021,"text":"跟委員報告 委員講的我們回去會做檢視因為我們的所有的基金聘僱的都是以盈餘的大水庫來支應我們給你兩個禮拜的時間我們來做分析來跟你做回報好 兩個禮拜嘛 謝謝麻煩檢討一下 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"167041","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167041","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce028d89ce0c9debd17307671192a7c66aa7fca8e6801c49bdd5e42fc9f2fe0e8b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:56:07 - 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謝謝主席 謝謝王雲喔好 那我請呂次還有我們勞保局的白局長請呂次長跟白局長"},{"start":12.194,"end":31.888,"text":"委員長很久沒看了是來 我今天問三個問題 三個問題第一個 我們衛福部從2017年就設這個兒童及少年未來教育及發展帳戶對不對是 沒錯可是現在已經八九年了對"},{"start":35.31,"end":53.06,"text":"那你是用中低收入到低收入家庭的孩子那到現在到目前就是三萬九千多人然後存款才三十二億這樣平均起碼一人存八萬塊而已"},{"start":59.545,"end":70.791,"text":"這個案子很好地擴大整個方向整個限制都打開這個本身就是一個好的方法了是不是 市長"},{"start":73.05,"end":87.382,"text":"非常感謝委員 長久以來對少子女化問題的關心 我要委員報告就是我們之前 其實這是在美國最早有一個資產累積叫Sheldon 他的理論就是說 強硬人 希望他們在最早 我們十八歲的時候有辦法第一桶金 讓他們的經濟市場可以繼續"},{"start":98.792,"end":118.103,"text":"但委員報告我們現在推動的部分我們也是說就是要幫助我們這個港口的家庭讓他們脫貧那你現在這個錢是委託台灣銀行嗎我們現在就是存在 存在台銀那邊是跟存在的那些私房或是他們有投資"},{"start":120.008,"end":143.041,"text":"我們都現在是儲蓄的功能 只有儲蓄而已所以可以定存的錢 那不是笑的這理想的幾乎是零啊所以你現在 你現在這個草案說是要讓勞保局操作嘛 勞保局你們在看什麼 勞保局你們看看錢 幾點要給你們 你看你們多厲害"},{"start":145.829,"end":170.006,"text":"跟委員做報告現在國內這個兒少發展賬戶那是由主管機關衛福部這邊來指定台銀來辦理那目前的一個實務運作據我們了解其他模式相對是成熟對於中央還有地方主管機關還有金融機構之間的一個分工還有作業流程相對是清楚的那如果在勞動部這邊的話因為勞保局過去扮演的角色是在社會保險部分的一個"},{"start":170.826,"end":193.025,"text":"保險人那如果在基金的投資運用上面是我們勞動部的勞動基金運用局這邊來做處理那如果說就這樣的一個制度當然今天大院其實也討論了非常多在制度的一個設計上我們也尊重主管機關這邊的一個考量不過在設計的過程中因為以勞保局我們現行的一個整個勞保局的一個定位角色跟"},{"start":193.505,"end":202.396,"text":"人力上面我們是有提到剛剛還講的兒少的發展賬戶如果說在現行的模式上一定有一個相對成熟穩定的運作模式經驗可循"},{"start":203.41,"end":230.246,"text":"那在這樣的一個基礎上跟如果把這個業務再委託到勞保局對我們而言是全新的業務衛福部這個架構我看是還不錯但是他就錢就你存在台銀他就是全放在那裡走並且設立一個帳戶這樣而已啊不去投資嘛不去投資就沒有它的效益出來那如果說將來還是放在台銀台銀能力會不會很差啊"},{"start":232.208,"end":257.947,"text":"你們的操作幾兆幾兆在操作的你們的效益都有8% 10% 12%所以台會指定給你們對你們才比較有期待那如果是衛福部你把留在衛福部之前交給台銀台銀也是用這種投資的型態台銀自己本身就可以操作因為我給他算一算你沒有多少錢"},{"start":259.088,"end":287.633,"text":"最多才三四千億而已比你們那幾兆幾兆再投資的差太多了如果是將來交給你們應該也是小case啦如果是給台銀的話台銀才有那個能力啦我現在比較大的質疑啦現在台銀沒有來不然的話就請他好好的來表示也跟委員這邊做一個補充在目前是不是勞動基金議員局今天副局長有來是不是如果委員同意的話可以請副局長這邊做一個補充那目前我們在"},{"start":289.874,"end":304.785,"text":"勞工退休金的制度上面我們有新制跟舊制那在台銀部分的話舊制就是在我們勞基法56條有明確規定我們的收支保管運用是委託台灣銀行來做處理那我們的基金運用局主要是負責新制部分因為下次這個會繼續辦來 第二個問題請次長"},{"start":310.861,"end":332.568,"text":"市長這第二個問題就是這一個今天提出的這個未來賬戶這個是很好的我們執政黨的立法委員也說這個很好但是只是說兇兇把他踢出來所以他為何沒有credit為何他的公債為何沒有去所以把他搶 搶到後還要開公廳還要做什麼"},{"start":334.429,"end":351.14,"text":"那事實上這個在全世界像新加坡 英國 韓國 加拿大都有了嘛那邊的各式的方式都不一樣這都有精力出來了是 謝謝所以出生給他五萬 每一年給他一萬一萬一萬那家長要拿可以一年多拿十萬"},{"start":355.563,"end":379.23,"text":"這樣到你如果說拿10萬到12歲、18歲那就不太錢了對 這個是好事啦又去投資 又有賺一點利息又有賺一點投資的效益那這個是好事 倒是我們健保局我們衛福部本身是比較保守嘛好像一種站在旁邊的人站固定立立 你不笑的"},{"start":380.291,"end":384.595,"text":"你現在說的這幾個我估計就是剛才委員所說的英國英國是兩千五年開辦的但是兩千十一年它都停了是怎樣"},{"start":395.285,"end":401.651,"text":"不像我剛才說的2008所以委員我們為什麼因為我們這些都是港口人的錢我們要更謹慎的啦你說要用投資 投資比有風險嘛這個部分可能還是要慎思啦 我剛才說英國那個案例可能"},{"start":415.155,"end":433.234,"text":"嚴公義是2011年他還有一個是由Junior ISA這三萬台那個保安就是後來就沒辦法你去到一半變成兩位了所以他們就很好就很好就接下去了所以我們知道大家都希望說做好但是這個因為像保安今天也有說這個這樣下去四千多億"},{"start":436.357,"end":445.846,"text":"我們現在高齡化我們有很多社會救助長照3.0都要退縮所以是不是會產生排擠效果可能也是要謹慎來來來變更舒服好"},{"start":450.04,"end":462.483,"text":"所以這個還要等民進黨有沒有提版本行政大臣要不要提版本那部長有指示說我們現在就是廣聽我們國務委員還有我們社會各自的意見我們來做一個對民間我們這些父母最好的一個方案我們是那個開放態度"},{"start":476.342,"end":483.888,"text":"好 所以臨近目前要做的就是這樣要做 不用這樣做議長有提及我們現在目前現有剛才委員也有說這個我們會來研擬看是不是可以再擴大好過不錯 我們要怎麼擴大我最後問你 台灣有八百萬戶左右八百萬"},{"start":495.916,"end":506.866,"text":"裡面沒有納稅或是納5%以下的所得稅差不多要到5%幾萬塊所以差不多六成我都沒有納稅所以你用4萬塊太少了"},{"start":513.452,"end":536.726,"text":"一定要享受這個沒落水或是說落5%以下的水這個孩子你要幫他補償如果說收入很高的這個他們自己就有嫁給他嘛有的孩子像你說的孩子在股市有開戶的像我們部長那麼有錢對不對小孩在股市就要有開戶啊對不對我只是說笑但是我要跟你說的就是祭祀這個"},{"start":538.206,"end":563.167,"text":"五六百萬給伊哈一定要給他們一個投資型這樣對小孩子將來要保障因為我們現在錢這樣好的時候就很多錢不好的時候有可能就不好我們台灣現在1100多萬個勞工裡面在做晶片業的才100多萬人"},{"start":563.687,"end":580.47,"text":"其他的1000萬都苦哈哈傳統產業現在都苦哈哈那這個晶片業如果往下掉一點馬上出問題你看整個股市70%的資金都在消高科技晶片這個是很可怕的事情"},{"start":581.448,"end":607.926,"text":"你們看好我是看得很擔心這個農產業你看這個整個股市這邊都國票都六個大米嗎這要多少這個好嗎我不知道這個是我們行政院也要小心的所以你們是開放的態度讓大家來討論原則上你們暫時不提版本"},{"start":612.372,"end":613.755,"text":"我們廣聽各方意見"}]}},{"id":"167040","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167040","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0a7e64720b20f103e307671192a7c66aa7fca8e6801c49bdd5e42fc9f2fe0e8b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:44:06 - 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統計方法不同我們要注意其實對衛福部而言我們最關切的問題是獨居且需關懷所以剛剛委員所說的就是那個5萬我承認那地方列管只有5萬跟你們衛福部評估39萬還是差了30幾萬"},{"start":154.875,"end":179.007,"text":"正因為這樣所以我們必須要趕快來做所以我們要重新調查這幾年的工作都白做了嘛我要問的是接下來不是只有調查而是讓他們怎麼樣成為這個社會被關懷的對象很多人在家裡過世了沒有人知道而且親朋好友去敲門才知道甚至他跟家人不聯絡甚至沒有上班的同事關心"},{"start":180.007,"end":187.292,"text":"這才是今天台灣社會很大的問題就是說我們幾乎沒有這樣子的緊急聯絡人所以我們很多也學習了您的一個在台北的這個經驗所以我們在這邊會來老人就是如果真的需要關懷的話我們會有每一天的送餐還有現在最重要就是學習您的經驗我們來設立這一個整個緊急求救裝置"},{"start":204.123,"end":230.971,"text":"這叫做社會安全網的一環只是社會安全網比較著重在於所謂的那些有問題的家庭但是其實孤獨死亡才是新的社會問題那另外一個就是我們看到中國大陸他推出一款APP叫做死了嗎也就是設定緊急聯絡人電子信箱如果你沒有上傳APP的話就會通知你的緊急聯絡人這個APP在中國大陸是下載第一名"},{"start":232.071,"end":247.367,"text":"也就是說如果我們政府要花六十幾億去做這個那是不是也弄一個相關的APP可以讓我們跟自己的緊急人員保持主動的聯絡現在的網路這麼發達如果你有花六十幾億去清查你還不如花六十幾億花一點點錢去做一個APP讓大家可以通報"},{"start":249.87,"end":273.707,"text":"包委員 我想您在台北市 但是副市長您也知道就是說這個重點並不是偵測的問題現在最重要的是偵測到之後你要有人去接受你後面要撿得起來 要接得住嘛但是現在這個APP就是通知他的緊急聯絡人總有一個人會去看他現在是沒人去看他 沒人知道他沒錯 所以我們在這裡面會補助地方政府他們成立Core Center"},{"start":274.668,"end":301.333,"text":"所以接下去要做的是我希望衛福部有個具體的甚至我認為我們應該列一個所謂的專門的法律來做相關的處理它已經成為少子化之外的國家重要的安全問題現在孤獨死亡不是只有老人喔四五十歲中年很多甚至有年輕人在家裡猝死的然後沒有人知道的其實孤獨死亡它是一個整體國家安全接不接得住的問題衛福部責無旁貸"},{"start":302.893,"end":328.775,"text":"好嗎 這是第一塊包委員 這個應該是全那個各部會啦都要 大家共同來利益所以我不希望說再發生內政部講一種數字衛福部講一種數字然後地方政府列管另外一個完全不一樣的數字是是 謝謝 列管完成但是沒人去接沒錯 列管只是列管 好嗎好 謝謝 接下去我想問一下有關所謂未來彰悟我看到反正大家都認為說這是一件重要的事情而是一件正確的事情衛福部自己的態度跟立場呢"},{"start":329.549,"end":347.145,"text":"我們今天就是部長一開始也說我們就是來虛心來聆聽各方的意見這大概是全世界都一樣的問題不是只有台灣第二個就是這個部分大家說有錢沒錢但是受惠於AI高科技相關的出口中央銀行剛剛上修了114年的經濟成長到7.3%"},{"start":352.45,"end":365.119,"text":"然後我們今年預估今年的成長率到3.67其實編列預算的時候這些都沒有在裡面接下去其實不要再說政府沒錢政府要賺錢很容易時間暫停我請國發會請國發會"},{"start":373.041,"end":396.761,"text":"副主委我們的賴總統在去年5月說滿週年的時候他說要做國家主權基金然後我們跟美國的談判到現在還是空轉20%加恩還是沒有進展日本跟韓國都被川普要求投資三千億四千億的美金然後我們的國發會針對所謂的剛剛講不管是做什麼事情都需要錢"},{"start":397.822,"end":415.678,"text":"那我們當時賴總統說要去做主權基金幫國家賺錢這件事情進展到底怎麼樣我到現在沒有看到任何的進展我想這個主權基金我在院裡面還在各部門的研議當中要不要做還在規劃當中要做還是不要做"},{"start":416.461,"end":429.268,"text":"還沒有做最後的決定 沒做決定但是總統先宣示了總統宣示之前都沒有演繹跟委員報告一下因為主權基金涉及的相關的議題相當的"},{"start":431.489,"end":455.78,"text":"但是總統已經宣示一年了而且其實我們希望朝野有共識所以我們現在基本上在收集朝野之間對於台灣設立主權及其相關的意見這件事情全世界也是一樣大家都朝這個方向在走只是制度上面要怎麼做可以多多參考各國的狀況但是不要總統說了之後一年還是樓梯都沒有響啊"},{"start":457.039,"end":478.235,"text":"連樓梯都沒有想更不要說人下來了對基本上總統也是希望我們多多看看我的意思是說應該是國發會研議出來之後總統才對外宣示而不是總統宣示完一年之後我們在立法院問你的答案還是今天這樣空洞這不是這個國家很奇怪的地方我先宣示了然後我不做然後你們還在研議然後最後告訴我說我不知道要不要做"},{"start":479.135,"end":508.118,"text":"要做就做什么时候做而已现在是你连说做都不知道是不是应该是说我们有这样的规划可是我想任何的规划事实上都要有朝野就是我们要去都要有朝野共识那就不要随便乱说第二个我想问那现在我们跟美国的关税谈判20加N到底谈完了没什么时候会有一个初步的结果能够跟其他国家做一个比较吗"},{"start":508.938,"end":532.246,"text":"現在有結果了嗎我想其實那個OTM已經有對外說明我們現在已經到最後所以沒有新的狀況我們已經說我們在最後階段已經快三個月了是因為有時候雙邊的談判不是我方可以到現在都沒有任何的進展我想應該是有我們我想立法院都非常體諒行政院我們知道談判是困難的但是"},{"start":533.666,"end":561.822,"text":"說一直在談談到現在還沒有結果都已經年底了然後都已經跟日本韓國差了好幾個月了不應該再這樣拖下去同樣的剛剛講如果我們真的是要做這麼多國家安全包括人口老人年輕人未來賬戶這些事情需要更多的所謂的國家預算主權基金是一個很重要的裁員來源這個可能也不能再繼續拖下去了好嗎我想委員的意見也是對主權基金的一個看法是"},{"start":562.882,"end":577.339,"text":"希望政府是去賺更多的錢回來照顧更多的人而不是把事情停擺在這裡如果要做就認真做因為我想主權基金就跟今天的兒童法一樣一旦成立以後其實它影響是非常非常深遠的"},{"start":577.779,"end":605.37,"text":"所以我們覺得主權基金的規劃所以不應該只是總統宣誓之後是一個空談我想總統宣誓是要希望藉由他的宣誓基金總統宣誓不能隨便宣誓啊收集各方更多的意見總統宣誓不能只是講一個空話然後什麼東西都沒有然後你們才開始研究我的問題是這個我想主權基金的研議我們其實過去一直沒有相關的研究我希望在今年2026年這應該有個具體落實如果今年都不能具體落實那就是空話到底啊"},{"start":606.01,"end":610.188,"text":"好嗎 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炮管壽命基本上我們到底有沒有耗損我們應該再從我們實際上更換的多少槍 炮管來回推其實跟槍管跟炮管的製造的品質也有相關"},{"start":194.219,"end":214.349,"text":"為什麼人家的榴彈砲37倍進來可以跑那麼遠 我們的打不遠其實有時候不是彈的問題 有時候是砲管的問題砲管的品質 像最近那個中國的戰車砲在泰國的邊境 塘炸那就是品質問題 不能怪炸彈啦好 所以 鋼型彈有大量的用那我現在要問啊 那我們自己會做為什麼要外購"},{"start":216.735,"end":244.33,"text":"我們剛剛一直聽到核心命題嘛自己會做為什麼要外購剛剛也有報告過了這個在來來 彈藥說明跟委員做一個說明就是這幾年因為恢復EUE增招然後那個較招包含我們去年也核定了吸行量的一個數量的提升所以導致我整個戰備存量跟教育訓練用彈的這個數量都增加增加的比例多少"},{"start":245.13,"end":269.032,"text":"增加將近快這個我聽起來是快一倍多吧我剛才光你們聽就是從2000多萬發現在變5000多萬發嘛大概成長了2點多倍嘛那個是訓練的部分戰備的部分也提升那我想這個部分可能不宜戰備我尊重有些軍事機密我們不提我想戴耀處這邊應該要說明的就是說過去以來的"},{"start":271.106,"end":281.734,"text":"一個戰備存量之所以夠那現在不夠那大概過去以來應該是都沒有在採購的部分我們當初在106年軍備局要205場要遷場之前有問過我們那時候評估一年的社訓量大概2000多萬而已"},{"start":288.871,"end":299.416,"text":"那這前四年就突然間整個就暴升到大概五六千那這個等於說這四年打下來已經幾乎是我八年的一個訊號量那我們的產線開始量產了沒產線現在我們自己國內的鋼芯彈的產線開始生產了沒"},{"start":306.65,"end":321.564,"text":"現在就是剛剛提到了115年的3月我們的這個既有的應該是分現有的跟新的我都會同時跟委員報告我舊縣也一樣請中科院都是包含在合約裡面"},{"start":323.346,"end":338.602,"text":"開始量產了沒還是逐步開始現在逐步用小批量在測試對 全線3月份全線量產所謂的1億發的產能其實還沒到那個數字嘛對 3月份3月份才會達到嘛好 剛才這邊整理起來就是因為我們的EWE從4個月恢復到一年期"},{"start":339.403,"end":357.675,"text":"我們的訓騎從五週變成八週所以訓練加上實彈化以前像我們EWE的時候大概打六發也幾發現在你們打了七八百發又打很多輪啦因為我兒子剛退伍他們打了很多輪也就是說訓練用的彈量非常大那大的具體數據剛剛也講了五千多萬發"},{"start":359.096,"end":387.698,"text":"那鋼琴彈有沒有在用 有啊用了83% 4000多萬發啊然後當你訓練的用吃到戰備美軍援外吃到戰備一定馬上去採購補足戰備所以美國才會跟日本買愛國者飛彈嘛去補他的戰備嘛否則美國自己會做愛國者飛彈幹嘛跟日本買就是他援助烏克蘭他的戰備量吃到了以色列援助外的部分吃到了所以他增加所以這一題其實是一個科學問題"},{"start":389.102,"end":414.907,"text":"需求量跟使用量跟戰備量三個數據ABC去加總就知道了倒是有數價格的比較我覺得有三個不同這個我就不問你們了2005年當時是美軍代工合約六塊錢那個嘛2005年那我要請教各位都將領都是軍事專家一顆子彈裡面的火藥用在哪裡他是不是只有敵火跟發射藥還有沒有第三種火藥"},{"start":416.616,"end":425.204,"text":"就是敵火跟發射藥而已就發射藥所以我如果說沒有美軍提供的是敵火跟發射藥我們國內製造我們還要出火藥"},{"start":429.707,"end":456.644,"text":"所以我不好意思講啦其實火藥發射藥那個發射藥跟抵火就是火藥的家種所以2005年20多年前當時的代工合約就是代工材料是他們提供的製成他來協助的那我們那個代工費的價格跟我去買那個最終成品的價格的比較基本上這是謬誤的比較第二個2005年到2025年物料成本成長了多少"},{"start":457.344,"end":483.681,"text":"用這樣相差20年份比較這也是一個謬誤第三個都叫子彈不代表價格都一樣就像都叫汽車品牌不同型號不同價格也不同所以這三個比較基礎的不同去說我們不應該採購怎麼樣其實我們不管是戰備需求或者訓練需求這些採購都可以去根據科學問題去驗證合不合理所以這題我們把它打住我現在要問你"},{"start":484.562,"end":498.172,"text":"美國曾經用PDA總統撥款特權有無償提供了我們一些裝備當然這有些涉及機密我就不細問那個部長這兩天我看媒體有揭露我們的那個"},{"start":500.813,"end":522.823,"text":"護衛營就是飛彈車的護衛營單位或者海軍陸戰隊有開始使用美國援助的M4A1的步槍這個我看媒體有報了這個確實有在使用了好像一些陸軍海軍陸戰隊有在用這一個M4A1的步槍這是美軍現役的步槍那我第一個請教的我不會問你數量因為這數量是機敏"},{"start":524.161,"end":548.009,"text":"就我了解美國的M4A1它的瞄準鏡是標配為什麼我看你們出示的相片裡面我們的國軍弟兄使用的M4A1沒有瞄準鏡是相片錯了還是你們沒有提供包委員它那個是執行的時候沒有把它放上去事實上軍援的那個部分它還是援助了一部分的那個快瞄鏡"},{"start":548.789,"end":565.522,"text":"有瞄準鏡 有一比一嗎 有有一批那就不是部分啦 就一比一所以美國美國提供給我們的M4A1步槍是有瞄準鏡 對那你說他們在執行任務拍那張相片的時候是沒有裝上去 沒有裝上去那什麼時候會裝 而且報委員因為當初他"},{"start":568.803,"end":587.098,"text":"配給我們就是援助的那個瞄準鏡的部分並不是1比1的援助不是1比1不是1比1所以我們就針對後備戰力提升的這個部分以及這些因為我記得我質詢過顧部長在這邊承諾包含我們T112我們都希望因為現在我們要打得準打得遠嘛"},{"start":587.438,"end":608.957,"text":"才回到剛才剛現在那一題嘛要打得準打得遠我們花大錢買的飛彈導彈都要又遠又準那我們每一個單兵各一個步槍兵所使用的武器當然我們也希望它能夠又遠又準所以瞄準鏡幾乎在美軍是標配所以我們T-1122也謝謝部長那時候才是就是全部都要配上光學相關的瞄準鏡那"},{"start":609.797,"end":624.755,"text":"M4是好槍啦M4A1是美軍現役在用的槍所以它如果有搭配一部分的瞄準鏡我們未來會不會想辦法讓它都補上來會全部都補滿會補滿嘛那使用的時機點是什麼它不是都會裝在上面訓練的時候 射擊訓練的時候它就會裝上去用"},{"start":626.917,"end":651.029,"text":"那在實戰的戰備的任務呢實戰戰備裡面他會依照不同的狀況去做配掛好 下一次你們再有相關的戰備釋出的相片裡面讓我們看到有掛配他什麼時機要用另外古斯塔夫無後座力炮其實是算世界一流先進的反戰車炮那美國當時PDA也送了一批古斯塔夫給我們我們到底有沒有配下去用"},{"start":654.568,"end":661.426,"text":"幫委員這個部分可能不方便在這裡做說明理由是什麼我們軍援的部分原則上"},{"start":664.025,"end":684.042,"text":"有部分涉及敏感的部分我們就不會公開做說話我尊重 我的意思是說如果美國軍援的東西合我們用我們現在是擔心後勤補給跟不上那我們就要思考相關的採購跟我們的配發要一致如果不合我們用我們也應該要表達說這跟我們現在裝備有抵觸"},{"start":685.963,"end":706.668,"text":"而不是收了援助放在倉庫這個就不好我不知道有沒有放在倉庫如果有用是個好因為我看不管烏克蘭戰場或美軍現役古斯塔夫是一個好的裝備人家無償送給我們那表示要買也買得到那這個東西可不可以補足我們現在反裝甲的火力不足因為我們的66火箭彈效期快到了"},{"start":707.368,"end":731.327,"text":"紅準一也沒達標啊我們紅準二測評現在好像還沒有測完啊所以我們希望說這個火力如果是我們戰備所需求的應該要尋求這個世界一流先進給我們國軍弟兄最好的裝備我們再講一次軍事採購扶植國防產業那是第二目標第一目標是給國軍弟兄用合用好用該用的東西而不是為了扶植產業用次等品"},{"start":732.629,"end":742.387,"text":"這個觀念不一樣所以有好裝備要弄上去所以古斯塔夫你不方便回答有沒有使用我就不為難海馬斯上面有架一個應該是排用機槍"},{"start":744.073,"end":764.294,"text":"我上次看他展出的時候上面有架一頂機槍我們海馬斯的 有嘛你們架的不是美國的他標配的那種台用機槍我看起來裝的是我們國產的那個小小的那個是世衛用的機槍所以我們是依現有的數量去做搭配對 你們現在裝在海馬斯上面就那門槍"},{"start":765.635,"end":775.01,"text":"跟那個車子不是一組的啦你是用我們自己示威用的那個排用機槍吧那為什麼不裝上美國直接他也送了排用機槍給我們"},{"start":778.294,"end":798.203,"text":"我們後面針對海馬斯智慧的部分那個是分層次檢討的那在當初海馬斯的這個構案裡面我們主要的是針對火箭發射平台跟ATACM的這個部分還有精準GMLS的這個火箭去做採購那後續再依照作戰需求我們事實上各個裝備我們會陸續進行調整來做採購"},{"start":801.264,"end":817.577,"text":"我另外請教這個配付量剛才講的為什麼彈灰需求量大因為我們現在實戰化訓練然後讓兵習慣用槍這個是好事我們一直在鼓勵這件事情就我了解T1122我們的吸行量配付量我們的彈匣現在標準是"},{"start":818.715,"end":841.35,"text":"沒有 不只7個 應該是11個 你比的跟陳建義比的就不一樣11個啦 7個是C型量啦 兩個再連 兩個再贏嘛 對不對所以總共每一把步槍 從過去 其實以前只配4個配4個 你以烏克蘭戰場來看 少一輪子彈就用完了所以我們現在把C型量符合實戰化的需求每一個步槍兵帶7個彈匣"},{"start":843.331,"end":859.994,"text":"然後呢 兵營 軍營就是連跟營各保存兩個所以是四個 四加七所以每一把槍配十一個所以我們的彈量要增加 彈匣也要增加而且你們是塑鋼的嘛 那個塑膠的比較好所以我們現在 我曾經在這邊要求以後不要讓部隊去省彈匣"},{"start":861.055,"end":876.128,"text":"你知道嗎 部隊有時候槍卡彈不是槍不好是那個彈匣被敲半天彈不上來這個把它當耗損品部長我建議很多次了我們自己兵工廠生產的彈匣能不能讓我們各使用步槍的單位每一年"},{"start":877.009,"end":895.505,"text":"給他換30%就是我強制配下去讓你更新因為不要因為一個彈匣這麼低價的東西去影響整支槍的效能勤儉建軍是陸軍的文化你們省到那個彈匣從頭上敲 敲到桌上那子彈彈不起來就彈不起來這個不好所以我建議這彈匣定期更新你們現在有沒有這個政策"},{"start":896.406,"end":924.713,"text":"鮑委員有 我們除了您要求的T112每一支槍要多增加4個彈匣之外另外T勾1含以前其他的原來配附是5個我們現在要增加到11個的話要多買6個另外檢討了全軍現在所有故障的彈匣數字我就不跟您報告了這三個部分我們全部都重新檢討也編列了相關預算盡快太新了我覺得給國軍隊的裝備足夠的資源讓國軍弟兄我們不管在各項家籍"},{"start":925.413,"end":954.211,"text":"我們過去十年加擠調整了十八次啦然後我們的基本的薪資調整了四次當然我們希望越多越好只要合法合憲大家來處理但是裝備要合宜我覺得這是每一個不管是士兵到將領裝備合宜是一個非常重要的事情那我就不再多佔時間我希望部長我們我一直在檢討我們的邊線比最小戰力域值以及相關的東西我還是會持續追蹤希望如果整理好出來之後給本席一份 好不好那以上謝謝各位時間 謝謝"},{"start":955.173,"end":955.193,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167036","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167036","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0a24484c94a4ec84ce6ea9f55fbd6b87589ddda9214312ca76df6a493928834075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:32:37 - 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93條 101條 108條這幾個修正案在我看來都其實這幾個修正案再提出來就其實引起司法界極大極大的"},{"start":63.903,"end":88.908,"text":"討論跟爭議跟質疑啦齁但是我想說今天我們在一併的齁一個呼嚨的把這三個主題把它鬥在一起齁這個部分我希望說能夠提出來討論這個是受到司法界非常關注的一個有關尤其是有關於相關的這些偵查中審查審判中的這個羈押制度的修正齁這部分我希望來做討論所以這部分我是不是先請我們法務部"},{"start":95.871,"end":113.211,"text":"委員長市長早剛剛我們講的這所謂第三部分這個刑事訴訟法相關的部分其實它裡面又有好多個部分的這個羈押制度的相關的修改包括這個第404條是有關這個強制處分的裁定不得抗告的部分這個是一個那另外這個"},{"start":115.013,"end":140.524,"text":"這個刑事訴訟第93條有關於偵查這個偵查中的這個羈押審查程序的相關規定這個又是一個部分再來是兩個爭議最大的部分第一個是101條有關於刪除這個羈押的事由刪除這個勾算證人跟這個勾算共犯的這個部分作為羈押事由這個部分爭議非常大這個部分等一下來討論第二個另外再來一個就是這個"},{"start":142.966,"end":169.046,"text":"108條有關於縮短羈押期限這個部分也引起很大的爭議那我就從因為怕時間不夠從爭議大的部分我們先來討論首先是這個有關於第101條的行事做法第101條這個羈押適由的這個修正案他這個在第一款的第一款的跟這個第一項的跟第一款第二款第三款"},{"start":169.967,"end":192.507,"text":"四個部分都有做修正包括這個第一項有關於增加且無其他替代手段作為積壓室油這個是第一個部分在第一款的部分把這個事實加上具體兩個字具體事實這個部分其實也有值得討論但是真正引起最大最大爭議是有關第二款第三款"},{"start":193.818,"end":215.915,"text":"有關於這個勾串對 有關於勾串共犯證人之餘的這個部分在修正案中把勾串簡單講就是說有勾串共犯跟勾串證人之餘不能當作羈押的理由這個部分引起最大的爭議這個這個"},{"start":222.132,"end":246.558,"text":"這個修正案一提出來 立刻就引起了我們包括司法界各界的嘩然簡單講就是嘩然了大家聽到覺得怎麼會怎麼會有一個負責任的政黨會提出這樣子的一個修法呢怎麼會對於所謂勾串犯人跟勾串證人變成不能夠羈押不能當作羈押的室友呢"},{"start":247.558,"end":271.703,"text":"這個部分包括這些檢察官的這個團體 像這個建清檢改包括許多的檢察官 甚至法官也都提出了相關的質疑那我們來講說這個有關於這個勾串把這個勾串從這個羈押的室友把它拿掉的最大的"},{"start":272.659,"end":284.056,"text":"的影響這部分我有看到你們的書面報告其實所謂勾串共犯跟證人他作為羈押的室友並不是中華民國法治的發明也不是我國所獨有"},{"start":285.549,"end":313.826,"text":"事實上不管在美國在德國在相關的進步的這些法治國家裡面勾串共犯騷擾證人相關勾串證人這個都是絕對是重大的羈押的理由對這是保全證據必要手段所以為什麼我國現在有什麼樣的條件有什麼樣的事由有什麼樣的形狀變更讓我們有必須要做這樣子的修法呢是不是請法務部說明一下"},{"start":315.501,"end":343.02,"text":"沒有 很簡單 你回答兩個字 沒有啊沒有任何的理由說我們要把這個勾串共犯跟證人這個拿掉啦你如果把這個拿掉之後 簡單講你剩下保全這個不能夠勾串共犯跟證人你只剩下什麼 剩下拒保 責負 限制居住相關這幾個替代處分這種拒保 我簽名 我保證不會去勾串證人"},{"start":344.502,"end":365.19,"text":"或者是我責負 或者是我限制住居就可以防止這個證人的勾串嗎可以防止對於這個共犯的勾串對於證人的騷擾跟勾串嗎完全沒有辦法替代吧對 這個對證據的保全跟將來的訴追絕對會造成非常非常大的影響"},{"start":366.994,"end":382.412,"text":"尤其這不只是人權的問題啦包括有沒有辦法防止串供這種尤其是現代的這種典型的共犯型的犯罪集團式的犯罪我們在於對於證人對於這個共犯之間的勾串以及他對證人之間的騷擾這個絕對是最"},{"start":384.995,"end":398.001,"text":"最嚴重的羈押是有啦那現在現今的尤其是大家國人不管哪個政黨大家所在講的現在的這個是詐騙案件每次主題一排詐騙案件大家屁屁叫啊我們詐騙案件我們這個詐騙案層出不窮大家辦案辦不下去"},{"start":403.243,"end":431.637,"text":"為什麼我們最需要防止共犯串證的詐騙犯罪案件量最多其他不只連略同的案件兒少的案件相關的組織犯罪黑道這些都是勾串共犯騷擾證人這都是最嚴重的干擾辦案還有貪賭跟毒品案件都是一樣還有什麼貪賭跟毒品這些都是都是有這個問題"},{"start":433.28,"end":453.353,"text":"所以我今天在看立法會我就不曉得你們到底為什麼要來修改這個規範為了一個在市長室踩飛輪收300萬的貪污犯這不是我講的啊 這個是起訴書154頁講的為了一個收謝國良200萬的貪污犯為了一個收建商1500萬政治現金 圖利121億的貪污犯為了一個人為事"},{"start":459.687,"end":479.716,"text":"然後你要來讓這些詐騙 虐童 組織犯罪 貪賭等等其他相關案件的辦案難度增加來讓他們有利於這些共犯跟證人之間的串供 勾結我不懂這是什麼道理 我不懂這個提案的政黨是什麼道理"},{"start":483.054,"end":498.103,"text":"這個部分我希望不只是這樣我們看過去大家所關心在這邊靠北靠北大家講的這些凱凱案過去為什麼羈押也是因為就是用這個理由羈押對不對如果我們這一條刪除之後凱凱案它就不能羈押了對不對包括台版的N號房也都是因為這個理由對不對所以我在這邊希望在野黨能夠懸來樂嘛"},{"start":510.743,"end":539.738,"text":"修掉這一條 你只是為了柯文哲一個人來為事你會造成社會多大的危害莫此為慎 莫此為慎接下來有關108條這個羈押理由的縮短這個部分也引起這個法界 我們法界的很大的這個爭議不管是這個各界 包括我們這個不管是檢方 不管是法官 不管是律師界 不管是"},{"start":541.131,"end":568.05,"text":"這個留德的 留日的 留美的 各界的學者 大家都看到這樣的修法 都齊齊以為不可我們比較各國的羈押制度台灣的羈押制度並沒有比世界各國其他各國期間長嘛有嗎 沒有 這個德國是偵查階段的羈押是六個月 原則上是六個月耶六個月 而且他延長機制 每一次延長可以遇六個月"},{"start":571.951,"end":582.209,"text":"這個美國的聯邦法院根本連期限都沒有美國聯邦法院連羈押的期限都沒有那我們現在是有什麼室友說覺得羈押期限太長呢"},{"start":583.274,"end":608.157,"text":"我們現在所有剛剛所講的這些不管是詐欺案件不管是組織犯罪案件我們現在包括最 辦案最困難的大家一直在講說我們為什麼打詐為什麼打詐這個詐欺案件越來越嚴重為什麼就是因為查我們在偵查詐欺犯不好辦不好辦 哪裡不好辦就是因為他必須要調閱金流必須比對通年紀錄他必須要解析這些數位證據"},{"start":609.796,"end":634.373,"text":"這些東西你現在要我們積壓線現有的積壓期限其實都已經跑的都來不及了對不對常常在積壓期限已經到了但是我們相關的金流分析還沒有辦法完成對不對我們這些數位數位的數據的解析證據的解析都沒有辦法在這麼短的時間內完成所以其實這樣子的這樣子目前的這樣子的積壓期限的時間設計他是兼顧"},{"start":637.535,"end":659.502,"text":"人權的保障 同時兼顧發現真實所需要的時間 對不對那我現在就不懂了 我們現在也就是不是又是為了為一個人 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那地方縣政府縣長也可以說我認為你們這自治條例違憲我不執行那就天下大亂完全違反法的明確性還有法的穩定性原則那麻煩下一次如果說在相關的議題在討論的時候是不是我們可以請行政院跟內政部他們要能夠派人來參加"},{"start":96.626,"end":111.964,"text":"我想謝謝吳委員的建議這次邀請上面的確是 也忘記邀請內政部的移民署所以我們接下來還會再安排相關的報告畢竟我們必須要持續的去盯"},{"start":112.484,"end":130.007,"text":"全序部跟考試院為什麼要拖這麼久的時間然後沒有辦法發出審定函我想這是攸關所有退休公教人員的權益那麼這個部分的話我們等到再找時間我們再來做適當的安排專報好 謝謝那我要邀請考試院還有全序部"},{"start":135.509,"end":150.039,"text":"吳委員長請問一下考試院這邊因為你們說在現行法庭作出判決權還有權序部要本於合法合憲原則執行各項作業那請問一下什麼叫做合法合憲 請問兩位"},{"start":152.368,"end":164.88,"text":"就是相關這個法律生效之後這個該執行的部分就會去執行好 那是不是意思就是說其實新法三讀通過總統公佈生效之後只要憲法法庭還沒有判違憲之前本來就應該要來審定跟來發給對不對"},{"start":167.806,"end":194.121,"text":"審定的部分是我們的工作 我們會來處理好 那對啊我覺得你就 那你們其實卓榮泰應該來聽聽看你們在講什麼啦因為他創了一個全世界沒有沒有民主 正常民主國家沒有人幹過的叫做三讀通過後的法律我認為違憲 所以我不執行好 那我再請教一下就是新法有效那權力存在的情況下你們目前的問題是行政作業需要時間這個核定還需要時間是嗎是"},{"start":197.684,"end":209.763,"text":"我第一個問題就是說為什麼這個時間要這麼久要半年 請問你們這個因為我看你們的報告說你們推估需要半年 為什麼"},{"start":211.568,"end":226.333,"text":"這個我跟委員報告這個我們是根據過去的一個經驗譬如說警察條例我們也花了快半年的一個時間因為他需要重新再寫程式然後這裡面還有廠商的一個需求的溝通"},{"start":227.153,"end":241.987,"text":"然後完了以後就需要一個一個還需要去測試測試那個程式一定不會有問題那我們是用那個來經驗那測試的人更多嘛那這樣齁我先尊重你們這個六個月的這個說法當然我個人會覺得說一到現在的"},{"start":243.248,"end":257.518,"text":"那個電腦的效能為什麼需要6個月這是我質疑我第一個我先質疑這個點但第二個我說我尊重部長您的說法但是可不可以麻煩主席麻煩主席才是這一段時間他說要6個月對不對那主席其實對這6個月也是有意見的嘛"},{"start":257.958,"end":279.374,"text":"那我們是不是要求他第一個我們先尊重他們這六個月的要求雖然你我都不認同這六個月但是我們可不可以 是不是說請主席裁示每一個月請全區部或考試院要向我們社會法治委員會提交書面報告進度就說你已經完成多少件的審定了我想這個應該是為了全國公務員一個公平正義這個可不可以請他們做到"},{"start":280.262,"end":287.049,"text":"是 本席也贊同那個吳委員的建議可能要請考試院根據去補每個月要報告到底完成了多少件已經對哪些機關的退休公教人員已經完成審定我想各位報告我們每個月都可以提交進度報告但是這個進度報告不是說那個月完成多少是為了完成到六個月以內要完成審定的極多的步驟"},{"start":302.423,"end":320.173,"text":"我看了第一次的報告我就知道哪裡是要在你們補新規的數據好不好是步驟啦以及你們都完成了多少件嘛你們如果只是步驟我想我們是要整個因為他是要系統完全開放一次作業那我們要一次作業會在六個月裡面最後發出審定函"},{"start":323.115,"end":342.165,"text":"那我想這個委員應該懂我的意思啊那前面就有開始開發我們可能一開始要委託開發就有一個流程所以我說我尊重你們嘛但是你要給我進度啊所以我說我會給進度你們是全國公務員的娘家耶今天你要為了他們的權益你應該是跳出來在前面幫他們擋子彈的人"},{"start":343.726,"end":372.689,"text":"需要我們每個一個月提交一個工作進度這樣好不好我跟主席報告還有跟部長報告你們先提出來我第一個月看你們的報告的方式是什麼如果我有要更精確的數字以及要哪個點我們再直接行文跟你談好不好那我要就是每個月要給我們一個進度否則全國的公務員都不知道你們在做什麼而且我們都覺得為什麼需要六個月那還有本週裡面你們可不可以先把這個"},{"start":374.752,"end":392.653,"text":"先把那個完成的作業計畫跟時程先報到我們委員會來至少我們公開讓全國這18萬名退休的公務員能夠知道不是說半年後再講這件事而是說我們要知道一下你們的將來的做法進度讓我們可以接著監督好不好"},{"start":393.874,"end":409.263,"text":"這個禮拜先告訴我們你的大概結構怎麼做就是你們整個的系統的你們說要什麼要轉換要變更等等相關的執行的步驟麻煩一個禮拜好 謝謝那我要講一個就是一個禮拜之內提供 謝謝"},{"start":410.083,"end":428.636,"text":"好 謝謝 我要講的是說其實我們本來是一個主權在民的國家那主權在民也是憲政的ABC但是我覺得現在政府就是把一個族群一個族群接著丟包所以我看到已經丟包到這樣了我不得不再站出來替大家講話我先講第一個政府先棄養原住民 之前禁法補助"},{"start":429.517,"end":449.135,"text":"法都過了 政府就不編他說我沒有錢我不編第二個 農民啊農民的公糧收購也是啊他說我沒有錢他政府就 你已經過了 他就是不做所以先棄養原住民 再棄養農民現在棄養這些軍警消工教再來呢 下一個會是哪一個族群我不知道 會不會是醫護人員"},{"start":451.498,"end":459.716,"text":"會不會是社工這些現在都是逃難潮你一個國家的運作絕對不是在比說為什麼你護士可以領得比我"},{"start":460.818,"end":482.364,"text":"勞工多 基層的其他工作人員多為什麼你護士可以比我7-11打工的多為什麼可以這樣其實國家不能這樣子比每個人有他的專業他適合什麼樣的薪水的那個range全世界皆然嘛就現在會搞得說一個群組一個族群被他丟包那今天政府就覺得一個蘿蔔一個湯"},{"start":483.724,"end":512.631,"text":"只要有人在這個位置就好 這個人能力怎麼樣 我不在乎所以這幾年我們看到是公務員報考人數越來越少警察報考人數越來越少好的人才都不到公務體系那政府一直跟我說 你有沒有想過勞工勞工收入才多少憑什麼公務員跟我要這個薪水當全世界先進國家對公務員的取材希望走向精英把精英來幫我們擬定最好的政策讓國家一起向上發展就我們的政府不是他只要一個蘿蔔有一個坑就好"},{"start":513.251,"end":531.939,"text":"什麼樣的人才來都可以不懂交通的去幹交通部長反正就不懂這個的去做什麼部長現在變成這個樣子嘛所以只要一個蘿蔔有一個坑這個人是不是專長 他一點都不care所以這就是會讓國家整個制度越走越不好"},{"start":532.739,"end":553.97,"text":"如果我們國家都剩下二流三流的人來幫我們擬定國家重大政策的時候我們很難變成是一流的國家我們這幾年的經濟狀況社會狀況已經很嚴重了我就說我們鄰近的強盛的國家都用精英在找最好的人就像一間公司的治理我都希望找最好的人來當我們的專業經理人"},{"start":555.871,"end":580.888,"text":"結果你今天不說 不用啦 那個專業經理人找這個人來 只要一個月三萬塊就可以你為什麼要找那個一個月要二十萬的然後你再比這個然後好 到最後公司就一團亂這就是我們現在國家的一個狀況 也是我擔心的好 那出了問題之後 政府一個族群 一個族群 一個族群的棄養丟包所以我才希望說站出來守住最後的這一塊我不希望國家整個毀掉"},{"start":582.122,"end":606.676,"text":"社會越來越狀況越來越不好經濟不好我說的經濟是指庶民百姓而不是指經濟的高端階層我們的平均薪資不錯但是我們的薪資中位數很慘但是這些薪資中位數以下的人他們卻是我們現在生小孩或是我們這個社會的最中間的分子就我們現在新生兒出生率剩下0.87請問各位在座的你怎麼對得起我們子子孫孫"},{"start":608.294,"end":622.103,"text":"我們現在國家一年要少多少幾年後剩下人家說再過幾年台灣出生率一年剩6萬個人那我們根本不用等敵人來打我們我們自己就亡國所以我一直覺得說我們到底在創造什麼樣的國家給下一代呢"},{"start":623.803,"end":639.899,"text":"我現在看到整個國家憲政制度整個崩壞以前說五院制衡現在是大家一起來集團來作亂我跟你講行政院帶頭違法不執行三讀通過的法律如此荒謬的鬧劇發生在中華民國"},{"start":640.7,"end":658.335,"text":"第二個 司法院司法院 大法官搞出那個五大於六那個然後講了一大堆亂七八糟的什麼救生員理論自欺騙自欺然後因為我是大法官 我說了算但是我們所有人都覺得你荒謬的鬧劇他也沒有 他也不care啊那司法院的高官來這裡我只不過問他"},{"start":659.175,"end":675.001,"text":"說法律宣布違憲之前人民有沒有遵守的義務他不敢講一直在兜圈子連這個最基本的憲政ABC他都不敢講在兜圈子如果連一個司法人員當法官的人都沒有勇氣對抗不對的事情的時候我怎麼期待國家能夠強盛"},{"start":676.201,"end":702.302,"text":"然後再來 監察院 院長虛位一年多當然他身體因素 我不會有其他的那個啦但畢竟他也是虛位一年多 這是一個客觀的事實又爆出監察院濫用公務車 搞那些公家的資源然後我去監察院 我具裝去那邊檢舉卓榮泰違法 也都沒有下文了好 那現在呢 本來我們最後我覺得最乾淨的一塊考試院跟權需部"},{"start":704.145,"end":729.601,"text":"過往權序部建議說你們應該要撥補什麼預算行政院應該編列但行政院沒有做這件事的時候貴部 貴院沒有跳出來講話就今天反而再跳出來說要趕快要提事先要怎麼樣所以到底公務員的娘家你們你是站在公務員的角度幫公務員爭取權益還是繼續在幫行政院在護航這是我必須我要講出我深刻因為我幹過25年24年半的公務員"},{"start":733.223,"end":749.5,"text":"我沒有辦法 我真的看到這樣子下去我覺得不忍心因為你們對於基層公務員斤斤計較但是呢 破壞整個國家制度的你們卻視而不見所以你現在跟我們講說審定還要半年那我就說 因為"},{"start":751.024,"end":764.675,"text":"我是予以尊重但是我還是希望說這不是一個消極的抵抗這不是一個對於公務員以及對於在野黨的消極抵抗我希望不是這樣所以我才希望你們資料一定要一直拿給我"},{"start":766.736,"end":774.127,"text":"最後我想提一下法務部剛剛次長如果要上來的話法務部剛剛有提到一個點確實剛剛次長講的沒有錯就是在起訴之後的審理期間確實你講的沒有錯"},{"start":783.039,"end":802.448,"text":"這個跟真實發現無關而是你們的重點是放在怕逃亡因為我剛剛再仔細再一次去看你們的報告所以次長您說的這完全正確但是我的意思還是這樣就一個案件已經起訴進入審理中陳生法官他已經所有的卷證資料他都看了但是他認為可以不押可以交保可以限制駐居"},{"start":803.533,"end":826.852,"text":"其實法務部實在是沒有理由用看告去推翻法官他看完卷證資料之後所認為有逃亡的風險所以更何況你們還有一些替代的東西譬如說我們有科技監控等等的方式所以我的草案不是否認被告在起訴之後就沒有逃亡的風險我認為還是有 我自有實務經驗 我認為還是有"},{"start":829.494,"end":846.932,"text":"但是呢 是不是應該讓檢察官在起訴把被告交給法院 接押的時候的接押庭把事情說清楚 講明白之後讓法官自己去決定要不要押所以我說 我們的訴訟制度學美國"},{"start":847.873,"end":862.163,"text":"目前刑事訴訟制度交互結婚選美國但美國他就沒有檢察官在審理中的案件看告這個問題那是不是說我們這個部分應該是把重心放在檢察官檢察官在偵查中"},{"start":863.024,"end":880.354,"text":"他要押人 他要怎麼做我覺得這一定要保障檢察官偵查了這個權益所以有一些人的提案包括其他委員的提案我都不簽 我不認同因為我覺得有一些東西你不能隨隨便便這樣子做但是我認為起訴之後到院方"},{"start":881.734,"end":903.864,"text":"審理逃亡與否這個是法官的全責更何況如果今天這個人跑掉了是法官要擔責任不是檢察官那你憑什麼檢察官可以來決定法官這個裁定是錯的報告委員有權就會有責那今天法官做的這個裁定在檢察官看來這個人還是會逃亡這個人還會繼續來威脅證人那檢察官的認為是繼續要結才是妥當"},{"start":909.847,"end":938.717,"text":"沒有 處長你講錯了檢察官 所以我說接押庭的時候檢察官要到庭論述講清楚 說明白為什麼這個人要繼續押他在審理中檢察官也可以繼續講嘛這個人需要押但是決定權要交給法官來決定而不是讓檢察官可以說不要我們認為上級的法官也要表示意見的機會我們必須抗告以後讓上級的法院來裁判一審的法官我知道這是部裡面的想法嘛但是我要跟"},{"start":939.724,"end":956.092,"text":"那個市長說明一下我認為已經起訴到法院了決定權其實應該交由法官檢察官要盡其所能的把他認為被告可能會逃亡的理由盡量的告訴法官但是由法官來做決定"},{"start":956.972,"end":972.604,"text":"我認為是這樣更何況那個法官是陳審法官這個被告會不會跑掉其實這個法官要擔全部的責任不是檢察官所以你說的全責分明沒錯所以假如法官有權下這個裁定他也必須要有責任去扛這個風險嘛"},{"start":974.065,"end":989.212,"text":"我的意思是這樣我懂委員的意思但是法官扛責任這個對整個社會大眾來講我們考慮的是一個案件最後的結果還有民眾的心理沒關係 這個部分我覺得我很尊重因為次長你也是一線檢察官出色這個部分我們可以溝通將來到我們在討論案子的時候"},{"start":996.576,"end":1016.431,"text":"我提我的草案那您說的也不是完全沒有道理所以我們可以去討論都不要有還是限制次數等等我覺得這就是一個法律上面的研討嘛所以我提我的想法但我也非常尊重法務部的想法我覺得各有各的道理但是你也不能夠否認說其實到法院之後為什麼"},{"start":1017.492,"end":1037.201,"text":"刑事訴訟制度讓檢察官到審理期間不得申請羈押而是由法官才能羈押他有他的道理如果你說我們怕他跑要檢察官要有表示意見的機會那你刑事訴訟制度就直接設計檢察官可以申請在法院審理時可以申請羈押就好了嘛為什麼刑事訴訟制度在法院審理"},{"start":1038.001,"end":1049.366,"text":"的時候不讓檢察官有身體積壓權他也有他的制度的原因所以這個部分將來我希望我們可以做一個實質的好好討論我當然很尊重貴部的一些想法因為"},{"start":1050.578,"end":1074.352,"text":"到審理之後法官比檢察官更怕人跑掉因為跑掉他要背責任的第二個我們國家其實花了很多錢在搞科技監控所以科技監控這塊也是可以彌補很多不能說所有東西都是檢察官認為說這個會跑所以我要押因為認為會不會跑不能當作說我要押你所以我百分之百有理由"},{"start":1075.132,"end":1099.187,"text":"這逃亡風險可是就是勾串證人這一個部分沒有辦法用課金我現在不是在跟你逃勾串我現在一直在講審理中你一直拉到偵查中勾串我沒有講這一塊因為事實上起訴後的被告會施壓要求證人翻供是有的這個我都懂所以我也跟你講所以我們剛剛不是你自己講我們講的你說"},{"start":1101.488,"end":1127.013,"text":"你們並不是在談真實發現這一塊這是您剛說的 對不是在談我理解 因為我看過你們的報告我們在談的是逃亡所以我們現在就逃亡的部分去講啦那至於說勾串之語那個是另外一個議題我並沒有去討論那個議題所以這個部分再麻煩因為我認為說羈押他是法官保留不能把他變回那個檢察官保留最後我講不好意思那個因為今天我們還有其他的委員大家"},{"start":1129.774,"end":1155.719,"text":"第一個我希望起訴的時候把羈押的必要性說清楚我剛剛等吳思瑤等好久你知道嗎第二個我希望你起訴的時候把羈押必要性寫清楚那你擔心有逃亡篡證再犯就具體說明第二個起訴羈押庭要實質攻防檢察官要到庭說明第三個審理中的羈押決定回歸法官的公平審判才是王道謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"167043","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167043","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce010ad3eecd8ab45b9307671192a7c66aa7fca8e6801c49bdd444a855be115db145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"11:06:35 - 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謝謝召委 我們有請石部長"},{"start":9.589,"end":33.514,"text":"那國發會的副主委其實也一起上來部長好部長這個我剛才特別掉順序就是為了質詢你因為我覺得這麼重大的議題部長你的發言是代表整個衛福部那今天要討論這個台灣未來賬戶我已經看到你面對媒體的時候你說這個普惠室的政策造成資源排擠"},{"start":35.214,"end":54.18,"text":"部長這個讓我對你的印象這個打了折扣這樣的發言其實非常的保守而且你沒有用一個發展性的觀點來看待一個未來的可能性這跟你過去給人家的印象完全不吻合是行政院交代你不可以多發言嗎"},{"start":55.94,"end":79.812,"text":"因為少子化辦公室你講大白話對不對辦公室根本就沒有真正成立啊沒有專人的編制啊你敢講實話大家肯定你啊那這件事情我是覺得以部長的高度或者是過去看你做事的風格你對於有發展性的創新的東西你應該不是第一時間就會去抗拒跟排斥的人嗎你不像"},{"start":80.869,"end":106.889,"text":"跟委員說明早上其實我完整的發言是講所有的政策都是一個選擇那我們都是會在既有的有限資源下去做最好的配置哪些是我們應該要優先那麼難免就會讓有一些這個政策呢就要做互相當中的這些順序的調整"},{"start":107.649,"end":123.143,"text":"所以我常講這個我有時候過去大家也知道我為了健保的財務會睡不著覺其實我們國家面臨當然我們的經濟發展很好但是高齡化跟少子女化很多都需要用錢沒有錯"},{"start":123.683,"end":144.049,"text":"当然所以我们在少子女化部分我们过去从这个少子女对策1.0到今年开始2.0其实我们不断的在强化除了经济弱势的儿童也对一般的儿童那么的挹注但是部长我要告诉你一件事情数据会说话"},{"start":145.289,"end":165.619,"text":"過去政府投資了超過五千億的確有在做 我不會說你們沒有做但是做的結果是去年的我們的新生兒的人口數只有十萬七千八百一十二人我覺得所有的部會所有的人員都要記住107812這個數字要非常的謹記"},{"start":169.821,"end":175.958,"text":"你如果看到從2016年到現在我們新生兒的人數他是腰斬"},{"start":178.24,"end":206.119,"text":"我不知道賴清德總統會不會晚上睡不著覺你將來你連國監幫你打仗的人都很有困難啊所以這個議題我覺得大家不要小看他就是一個標標準準已經是到國安等級危機的問題這不是空話就是大家在2016年的時候也不敢相信說人口怎麼可能掉得這麼快從20萬人可以掉到10萬7812人"},{"start":209.182,"end":221.761,"text":"這個速度太快了所以面對這麼重大的議題政府當然要有魄力 要有遠見要用個更宏觀的角度 發展的角度提出更好的方案嘛"},{"start":223.057,"end":241.402,"text":"如果你還是在那邊縫縫補補小知小覺什麼1.0 2.0 3.0然後慢慢增加我跟你說來不及了來不及了所以今天照道理來講我為什麼請國發會副主委上來這是你國發會的責任"},{"start":243.442,"end":261.048,"text":"就整個國家的發展你們早就應該要提出更有魄力更有遠見更宏觀性至少讓我們的人口可以止跌吧沒有沒有止跌的方案所以這個是為什麼國眾兩黨今天必須提出來這個台灣未來賬戶"},{"start":263.149,"end":283.674,"text":"這一步剛剛次長講了很多說不一定可以解決少子化的問題但是至少他讓我們未來的年輕人看到國家跟你一起養的決心國家可以陪著你讓你未來政府的責任是讓你的小孩未來他在18歲的時候可以有一筆資金"},{"start":285.234,"end":302.337,"text":"不管是他要就學也好他要自己再去深造也好我們對於國家未來的主人翁我們政府負了一定的責任讓他可以安穩這樣的一個方案川普已經先講了他今年7月他也要做了"},{"start":303.098,"end":319.25,"text":"我們台灣跟進為什麼美國可以台灣不行但是我必須講我今天聽了民進黨很多委員他的這樣的一個發言從前面的程序的發言然後我們官員的報告我感到非常的失望"},{"start":320.271,"end":343.722,"text":"因為多數都還是用一種很僵化保守的心態甚至把這個議題跟弱勢的議題連結在一起這是兩件事弱勢本來政府就在照顧而部長我不同意你的是你說這個會造成資源的排擠你沒有用一個更宏觀的發展性的觀念為什麼我們對於孩子的投資就只能這些"},{"start":344.986,"end":367.843,"text":"如果這個是未來重大的國安議題為什麼不是政府我們可以用更大的資源跟力量朝野大家一起合作想出一個更好的辦法這個才叫開放的態度但上午的尋討讓我聽起來那不叫開放的態度那個就是打從心裡先抵抗就覺得不好我們看看主計總書跟財政部出的報告"},{"start":369.875,"end":384.971,"text":"都是保守再保守啊如果我們同樣政府都是這樣的心態我們的掃紙話有解嗎我就要問了我們有提出更有效的解放嗎這個是我看到我覺得我們現在政府很迫切危機如果我們"},{"start":386.383,"end":410.814,"text":"思考這麼的僵化固著我們提不出更好的方案沒有解方大概會維持這個樣子所以這個是我覺得為什麼今天希望部長你可以上台接受質詢我覺得你應該要回到你原來比較開創性的思考那個部分重新再來思考這個問題你剛剛前面第一句話講得很好政策是一種選擇"},{"start":413.086,"end":441.028,"text":"就是我們的方向性我們現在就是少子化的問題我們就應該要很嚴肅認真面對而且你的力道要夠強不要都提那個很微小的很微小的方案出來這是一個大破大裂的方案他當然會動用到一些的資源但是我們要問的是對於未來對於給予父母更大的信心是不是對台灣社會注入一股強心針我個人覺得是"},{"start":442.069,"end":447.158,"text":"所以這件事情我希望部長你應該要有一個更開放的態度來面對可以嗎"},{"start":449.733,"end":476.087,"text":"謝謝委員這樣的一些這個前瞻性的說法不過我們回頭來看我們過去對少子女化所做的這一些的投入其實沒有一條我認為沒有一條應該少他都應該做所以我的意思是應該要再加嗎只是說不要用這種後勢的觀念所以面臨到現在我們仍然沒有辦法看到成效那到底是強度要再加深"},{"start":477.027,"end":499.948,"text":"还是要另辟蹊径这个是另辟蹊径就是我们现在变成是往以后18岁以后看但是我们现在当前的是强度不够对于这种育儿的家庭他的经济的支持跟机会的成本去强化你既有的政策又外加一一加一不行吗所以我希望是"},{"start":501.041,"end":528.142,"text":"再多一點時間像剛剛很多委員也提到以公聽會的方式然後讓我們再有一點時間那部長我可不可以要求你衛福部也要認真去做功課可以嗎會 這個是我們的責任你提出你可不可以有1加1的版本你既有的政策在強化之外在外加這個版本的到底整個我們需要多少的資源另外一個國發會的副主委今天在我們朝這個方向來來努力研究"},{"start":528.942,"end":542.128,"text":"國發會的副主委齁我今天看你們報告坦白講我蠻失望的齁過去行政院一直說國發會是扮演一個總體的我們的人口政策你們應該是那個腦但是你們今天的報告不及格"},{"start":543.15,"end":561.403,"text":"什麼都沒有提到我跟委員報告就像委員說 剛剛部長說的其實人口少子兒問題設施的面向非常廣泛所以事實上現在行政院的分工裡面是由陳政委在會籍各個相關部會提出相關的規則那基本上我們國發會第一個我們發布人口的這個"},{"start":567.307,"end":588.241,"text":"那個相關的統計你們要提政策啊對那我們基本上我們在負責的部分就是因為其實人口結構會影響到人才跟人力的這個部分所以呢其實我們人才跟人力這一塊怎麼樣去做一些我覺得這個國發會你們要再更主動一點好不好"},{"start":588.821,"end":610.77,"text":"你不要什麼都是衛福部衛福部他們執行面其實事情非常的多跟委員報告其實衛福部或是陳修政委在召開相關會議的時候我們國發會都會參與我們也會從國家資源分配的角度裡面提供相關的建議因為行政院他基本上有他的這個政委的分工那我們都有參與其中的計畫"},{"start":611.57,"end":627.746,"text":"我覺得你們不夠積極 坦白講過去我看到國發會不是這樣人口政策 少子化政策都是你們在提現在變成都落到這個衛福部頭上我覺得衛福部也沒有那麼厲害所以我認為國發會還是要扮演起一個更宏觀的角度 好不好"},{"start":628.606,"end":644.256,"text":"這個好的政策應該你們來提然後去徵詢這個衛福部的意見我希望這個副主委你也很有經驗你們應該要再更積極一點因為解決少子化不是單一部會的問題是每一個部會都有責任好不好我們大家一起來努力"},{"start":644.836,"end":658.491,"text":"請大家用一個更開放的心態更前瞻的心態我們一起來思考有沒有更好的辦法讓我們的年輕人更有信心而且真的去落實國家跟你一起養政府的責任絕對不能少謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167035","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167035","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0c8a7ec04b13b971b307671192a7c66aa89ddda9214312ca7b2b7e68c96004cff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:33:05 - 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有請次長請呂次長"},{"start":16.096,"end":39.069,"text":"郭委員好 次長我想今天藍白提出的版本未來帳戶的內容當中我不曉得部長有沒有仔細去跟他瞭解看過條文內容包圍有有條文內容當中你有沒有看到他第三條當中把金額的部分定義在多少多少我老實說就條文的內容當中我第一個是覺得奇怪是把金額放在這個定義當中"},{"start":40.41,"end":58.957,"text":"另外一個部分定義跟定義之間還有一個矛盾的地方也就是第三條的部分它限定自存自困款每年10萬企業5萬然後到第12條的時候又規定主管機關每年公告調整金額到底是10萬為受限還是主管機關可以調整這又是矛盾的地方是的 沒錯"},{"start":59.897,"end":76.976,"text":"第三個部分在他第18條的部分的說明當中內容當中其實我看得出來藍杯版本是copy這個川普的版本的內容川普的版本內容就所謂的合格投資標的合格投資標的是什麼也不清楚"},{"start":77.837,"end":99.585,"text":"美国的合格投资标的标准跟台湾会相同吗这是第三个矛盾的地方第四个矛盾的地方这基金费用的部分不得高于0.1%就实务上来说台湾没有任何一个基金这ETF的基金代钞的费用是在0.1%的市场上不可能"},{"start":100.485,"end":119.934,"text":"市場上甚至有高達1%的當然 越低當然是越好但事實上是不符合現實因為美國的整個資本市場很大數十兆美金跟台灣的整個資本市場的規模又不同所以說就版本內容當中藍白確實有許多令人訝異的地方"},{"start":120.814,"end":147.692,"text":"但是我也必須說藍白的這個內容當中我們不要全然的否定因為它相對於這個衛福部現在的版本當中它把儲蓄擴充到投資把存量擴充到流量我覺得為什麼會有這樣的概念的出來也就是說既有的賬戶兒少賬戶當中有它的限制的所在一來對象的限制二來整個資金的運用的限制"},{"start":149.213,"end":169.585,"text":"第三呢是不是能夠保底的限制如果我初估衛福部的這個版本內容當中你們夯不夯當以18那每個月最高金額你們有三種金額1250來計算的話也不過拿到5418年後的54萬是算什麼我想加上CPI的部分大家都非常清楚恐怕相對的貶值的不少"},{"start":170.405,"end":184.425,"text":"那衛福部站在整個部本位的角度當中會思考就是說我要濟貧我要針對弱勢兒童我當然可以理解但是我們今天的整個法案的出發點是從一個少子化的一個問題來做出發"},{"start":185.646,"end":205.914,"text":"少子化的問題就不再把過去養育養兒育女的責任視為家庭的責任情況底下變成養兒育女的責任國家也有責任否則的話就不會像衛福部所提的107年到114年你投入了5900多億的原因就在這邊啊就國家也有責任嘛"},{"start":207.514,"end":232.48,"text":"只是說藍白的版本中比較不負責任的部分就不願意讓家庭負責任卻讓國家負擔了過多的責任也就是這個財責的部分讓國家負擔過多這其實是不一定是好的事情也就是比例拿捏的部分去思考說國家跟政府國家跟家庭之間要如何去分擔這個共同的責任這我是同意的但是偏重於哪一方"},{"start":233.42,"end":253.032,"text":"這可能要好好的拿捏跟取捨同樣的道理這個少子化的問題也不應該偏重個別的一個部會譬如講偏重在衛福部我覺得沒有道理啊從國發會高度的角度 高福祖也在這邊啊金管會的角色我認為就應該要提升嘛就應該要提升嘛所以其實衛福部其實不用故步自封"},{"start":254.053,"end":272.971,"text":"你是可以開創一個比較open的一個態度出來就是說你應該去思考如何將既有的這個儲蓄老實講儲蓄是錢啊要怎麼變多錢啊這是重要的嘛那你如果是擔心說投資有風險那如果這樣子勞動基金用錢可以撤掉啦對不對"},{"start":273.892,"end":299.243,"text":"投資當然有風險啊勞動基金以前的成效歷史的經驗市場的法則我們都可以判斷出來嘛所以既然是這樣子我們就大膽的把這個儲蓄開放成投資的一個概念嘛那也不要局限於本部的概念針對弱勢兒童而已嘛弱勢兒童要處理很簡單嘛本席就提出一個版本弱勢家庭由政府權而補助就是保弱勢的方式嘛"},{"start":300.163,"end":324.062,"text":"你就用這種條款就處理掉啦你就說一般的家庭他可能提薄一千二弱勢的家庭就是兩千四這就保弱勢不排戶然後照顧全民的兒童全部的兒童不要分階級這樣的情況底下才能真正全面性的去照顧所謂的這個少子化的一個問題啊"},{"start":325.816,"end":339.982,"text":"如果說國家的資源投入沒有幫助的話世界上沒有任何一個報告這樣寫我們就不願意做的話那相對的邏輯國家資源投入六千億那會有什麼幫助呢難道還要再寫一份報告來思考嗎"},{"start":340.982,"end":356.442,"text":"然後我們只要投放到10歲之後到12歲他要使用的話我們也部分提波限制他的使用用途那18歲之後結清賬戶鼓勵投資的方式來做思考如果要限制用途 當然也OK"},{"start":357.81,"end":374.348,"text":"那管理很簡單啦 管理不用衛福部啦管理只要用經管會的角度來做思考因為成立委員會在經管會這種事情啊 老實講啊非常簡單啊以前的TISA就是一個管理委員會的概念嘛"},{"start":375.169,"end":403.551,"text":"什麼投資標的是適合的反向ETF不適合槓桿操作過大的不適合我們都應該把它排除有一個委員會在審查這適當的一個標的那另外更重要的就是剛剛我提到了要一個保本的概念本期提出一個保本的概念不同於過去兩年的一個定期的一個利率應該再加上CPI的這個年增率通膨的年增率這可能確定保本"},{"start":404.532,"end":418.107,"text":"所以如果是這樣子的話一年的經費也不會像藍白的版本高達1423概估上是如此本期概估上大概279億如果是用這種方式來做兼顧一來"},{"start":420.125,"end":433.765,"text":"從儲蓄到投資兩種功能兼具也就是成立一個台灣兒少這個儲投投儲這一個專戶的概念的話這個部長 次長你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":434.708,"end":461.013,"text":"包委員我覺得我們確實今天也是來聆聽委員以及各方的意見只要對於民眾有利我想我們都願意來仔細聆聽委員也是確實在這個部分我想這個非常欽佩剛剛也點出很多就是相關的問題但是最重要現在我知道委員現在目前三個重點第一個我們現在目前就是從存量到流量第二個從儲蓄到投資第三個所得上面"},{"start":461.993,"end":481.458,"text":"我們的對象上面也來擴充我想只要是對民眾有利我想我們都願意來擴充之外還有保底然後一部分限制用途的考量也就是說我會鼓勵衛福部還有或金管會或國安會站在一個國家的高度當中提出相對的版本"},{"start":483.138,"end":498.458,"text":"提出一個相對的版本來跟藍白對話當然我也鼓勵藍白應該有相對的雅量等到行政院版本出來本席的版本也在連署當中既然是公共政策 我想召委會這種態度不會討論各一的版本而已"},{"start":499.059,"end":518.673,"text":"我們希望尋求更多的一個共識然後凝聚更好的一個制度能夠化解台灣目前國安的危機來面對這個少子化的問題問題非常的多包括這個呢兒童的部分我本來是用一個當大人ETF的概念它以後可以衍生衍生變成是兒童版TISA的概念"},{"start":519.574,"end":533.964,"text":"TESA的概念當中過往免稅的部分當然我們的護稅署是護稅第一是保護的護這個護稅署一向都是聽到稅就不想要任何的動護稅署署長你要不要上來一下"},{"start":534.844,"end":557.444,"text":"你剛剛講說美國那個訊息你可能要去調整一下啦可能不是你說的這樣子啦但是呢你不如想想日本的這個NISA的部分它的免稅額度NISA 2.0到現在還高達一升當中300萬我們是不是要思考一下兒童的部分把它做放到100萬來思考"},{"start":560.767,"end":587.421,"text":"來突破來作為化解台灣少子化危機上的一個租稅工具的一個調整有沒有可能報告委員不管是美國或是英國現在所謂這個兒少專戶的一些相關設計還有剛才委員提到日本的NISA賬戶他們都是沒有所謂的租就是他們在提撥的時候是沒有租稅優惠他們是指那個所得那個本文"},{"start":588.101,"end":605.642,"text":"那個委員概帖是本金所產生的利息跟資息可以免但不是說他在前頭提撥的時候可以扣除不是前頭提撥是總Totally是累積的概念沒有錯我是累積的概念你至少在這部分把它化解掉嘛"},{"start":606.343,"end":626.471,"text":"化解掉的話會鼓勵大家願意來投入這個賬戶這樣的情況底下我跟藍白之間版本不一樣他是全部幾乎把責任歸附的國家那我們的部分呢是相對的是說當我政府要相對提撥的時候你的自存戶你要先有作為嘛你自存戶先提的時候我再提嘛這財政負擔"},{"start":627.972,"end":655.409,"text":"我相信就會少了很多啦那國家的責任也會有但是國家跟家庭共同來面對這個少子化問題我也希望這複稅署能夠開放心胸我們思考更好的制度好不好謝謝 郭國文委員我們都會配合會配合太好了會配合那也請那個次長次長是少子化的專家啦他剛剛說他是少子化的專家就麻煩一下好好研究一下謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝郭國文委員發言"}]}},{"id":"167034","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167034","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce002fc2e86c985d593307671192a7c66aa89ddda9214312ca7e588b5cd50b116635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"10:23:58 - 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那我說這因為你現在有剩下3.5成的小朋友沒有參與 你們的那個解決方法是什麼有嗎 有在想辦法經濟上的問題應該是最主要的一個因素好 那我們看下一個"},{"start":292.89,"end":303.041,"text":"就是說現在的我們的台灣的未來帳戶我看到第7條是說辦理台灣未來帳戶的相關工作經費來源是來自我們的那個特別預算嗎可以請勞動部這邊來回答嗎勞動部OK好謝謝"},{"start":316.462,"end":326.193,"text":"我們是明定編列4500億的特別預算前明確排除預算法第23條不得不得不得充經常支出的限制這些"},{"start":328.145,"end":353.039,"text":"報告委員有關於目前我們勞動部這邊在相關的一個不管是農退或者是勞動我們的一個勞退制度上面的一個設計由勞保局這邊來做收支保管那基金運用局這邊來做投資運用那相關在制度的執行過程中都需要相關的人力配套以及相關的經費還有我們在任何一個制度開發的任何一個制度要建置之前"},{"start":353.439,"end":371.736,"text":"我們都有相當時間的一個資訊建置期間那我們在相關的報告裡面有提到說相關的人力部分因為以目前我們的內部業務現在所做的跟今天在談的一個帳戶帳戶是一個全新的帳戶管理那這部分我們現行的業務上面並沒有相關的一個經驗所以這部分必須要做相關的一個盤點"},{"start":372.757,"end":399.903,"text":"好 謝謝那再請衛福部處長那就針對我們看的一些經驗來看那就是英國的那個失敗的案例沒錯那就失敗的案例2005年到2011年他其實我覺得我在看了以後他的最主要的應該是溝通的失敗吧或者是說家屬就是家長的參與參與度沒有很高或者說他根本就不知道有這些帳戶所以應該不是我覺得應該不是基金的"},{"start":400.743,"end":424.246,"text":"所謂的錢的規模或者是說剛才所講的那些行政的這些繁瑣或者是流程常常都是因為lack of communication or awareness其實是佔了絕大部分所以如果說我們針對這次如果國中兩黨的版本通過或者是加上以後我們公聽會有執政黨的版本的話我是不是要著重在這方面這幾個缺失比如說家長的參與度"},{"start":425.447,"end":453.05,"text":"然后你把这些或者是说对这项政策的一个认知或者是说你对这个整件事情的一个知道的一个程度知情嘛那还有一个就是说政府跟我们儿少的一些家庭的一些沟通的能力所以我觉得如果这件事情要成功的话应该是要我们借进英国的一些失败的一个原因然后把它补正"},{"start":453.61,"end":464.489,"text":"然後當然他一個現在的做法就是說他們可能政府的投入的資金已經變成像是零現在叫GISA也就是說GISA沒錯對所以"},{"start":466.226,"end":494.598,"text":"政府的角度可能是站在一個監督或者是說一個平台而不是在一個他的所謂的把所有的很多的資金放在那裡面所以他才會有一個成功的面向是不是這些都可以來討論幫委員三個重點第一個我所看過的paper英國的案例最重要事實上是因為2008年金融危機所以政府裁員無以為繼所導致的是第一點另外第二點正因為裁員沒有辦法確定所以這個"},{"start":495.839,"end":515.178,"text":"如果蓋起來如果蓋到一半變成爛尾樓這個我想可能就會導致您剛剛所說的只有現有那些繼續繼續繳然後變成是一個死錢在那邊政府就沒辦法所以我想這個會影響到很多很多的很多家的這個家庭所以我想這個必須要謹慎為之最重要的我想剛剛主計主計書這邊有說明裁員必須"},{"start":518.362,"end":532.641,"text":"就是說你要編預算91條的規定就是你要尋找有裁員我想這個才是對於民眾最大的權益保障對 那麼還是希望朝野能夠有一個努力的方向然後希望把這些事情做好 謝謝好 非常感謝盧委員 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第三個必要時修正其他法規的一個配套那以現在目前提出來的台灣未來帳戶的條例來看的話 請問有徵詢過行政院嗎"},{"start":78.767,"end":97.638,"text":"根本沒報告除了預算法第九十一條之外在財政紀律法還有還有財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一都有相同的規定那我先問就是現在我剛講的那三個法律要件到底做到哪哪項哪幾項目前我們所知現在是都還沒有跟行政部門來"},{"start":100.044,"end":125.553,"text":"類似所以還不知道那個彌補資金的來源還有整個其他如果修正的話那個配套措施是什麼所以這個條例還規定說經費要優先移用前年度的稅計那個剩餘甚至舉借債務的資應請問主席總署這邊這個規定如果沒有跟行政院討論的話對我們的政府財政的影響是什麼"},{"start":128.036,"end":153.025,"text":"這裡面的總經費要達到4500億等同一年他就平均一年是要增加大概340幾億340幾億那我們現在的舉債空間算出來大概就只有1800多億在扣除國防扣除國防平均每年大概要1560億頂多只剩下大概300億的空間那我們每年的"},{"start":154.406,"end":179.246,"text":"科技還有公共建設還有我們依法律支出每年這些經費大概要成長5%那每年大概就要花到大約是1200多億所以每年的稅率的成長數大概用到這些就不夠了如果說要在這一筆下去的話那可能就需要排擠到我們其他的一個就是排擠到其他的政策"},{"start":181.287,"end":200.281,"text":"未有說明吧就是這個是一個選擇啦你選擇做這個你可能就會排擠到我們其他的支出以上所以我最後再確認一次如果這個條例沒有符合上述的法律要件如果今天假設真的諸條審查的話被強行通過最後三讀的話是不是又會出現有違法疑慮的條例"},{"start":202.283,"end":219.943,"text":"預算法跟財政紀律法有財政措施法法都很明確的規定對於大筆的支出還需要先指名彌補的財源這一次的金額高達4500億元目前也還沒有和行政部門來做一個溝通我覺得應該還是要謹慎"},{"start":222.611,"end":251.192,"text":"所以這就是我們擔心如果立法委員都覺得自己提的事實上是福國利民的法律案的話那我真的想問憲法跟預算法為什麼還要設這些規定各位那就不用啦為什麼不讓立法委員自己想加多少就加多少還要徵詢行政機關這跟財政紀律到底有什麼關係可是我們財政紀律法是講得非常的清楚所以我很擔心說如果有人現在甚至有沒有想法是說今天在這邊質詢一下就算徵詢行政院"},{"start":251.992,"end":280.917,"text":"接下來就要強推上下那我就要請你回到財政紀律也回到我們的4-268號的解釋的原因要防止政府的預算突然膨脹的話那造成人民增加人民的負擔的話那就是要落實我們的責任政治所以請問主席總署你認為今天質詢完就可以增加預算人嗎要從預算編列落實到責任政治的話應該怎麼做"},{"start":282.319,"end":294.424,"text":"我們那個立法院具有預算的審議權但是預算的權是在行政院像類似這種金額非常龐大我們認為還是需要由行政部門來做一個審慎的評估"},{"start":297.048,"end":315.66,"text":"所以最後我大概要再三強調如果沒有妥善的規劃真的是上一個政策會變成是全民的災難如果未來帳戶如果要最後要舉債來買單的話這到底是投資未來還是在跟未來借錢這有多麼諷刺謝謝主席總說請回那接下來請衛福部的次長請女次長"},{"start":322.387,"end":339.603,"text":"市長我們就來討論完善的規劃剛好在問經費預算有沒有違憲因為有時候除了經費預算的話應該更關鍵的是政策內容我要先講清楚要解決重大議題不是不能花錢該花就花可是要先搞清楚"},{"start":340.803,"end":356.713,"text":"這筆錢到底為什麼要編要解決什麼問題這個未來賬戶的法案說明五花八門引用各國的政策這樣依照你現在看到的條例內容暗由立法說明你認為這到底是什麼樣的一個法案因為講了第一條就講了"},{"start":357.193,"end":373.896,"text":"大概五個目標那一個政策要解決五個目標只有一個帳戶裡面要能夠解決五個目標那你們過去掃紙花花一千多億從很辛苦的要做兒托生育補助還有教育的支持準攻非營利幼兒園"},{"start":375.037,"end":392.148,"text":"這些都要一一的來做推動甚至給我們的保姆的政策跟托嬰中心的準攻甚至普設托嬰中心還在做親子館這些事情所以不知道你覺得這法案到底要解決什麼問題還是能夠解決貧富差距跟培養人才"},{"start":393.249,"end":420.377,"text":"非常感謝委員的意見我先簡單說明一下我們在過去8年總共政府已經投入5931億已經投入將近快6000億這是第一點另外第二點我必須要在這邊說我想提出這一個特別條例我想當然大家都非常關心但是我們在立法的時候不能只談理想不談代價"},{"start":422.362,"end":439.774,"text":"不能只談理想不談代價那你覺得有沒有會影響到什麼因為這13年就要花到4033億喔只靠一個帳戶的政治操作政策操作的話可以一次滿足這麼多政策目標嗎那你們有沒有評估"},{"start":440.735,"end":461.544,"text":"我們的國民黨有沒有跟你討論 跟你們討論過是 包委員 目前就是說以這個第一條的這個相關的這個五大目標這個是我在這邊的這一個過去的研究顯現大概基本上利益良善這一個理念也不錯 但是恐怕方法會有誤導"},{"start":462.384,"end":483.528,"text":"也會有問題這裡面簡單來說這個目標很好但是呢這裡面的這個策略跟方法恐怕不僅為蒙其利反受其害剛剛也說了就是說在這裡面本來要解決現在當期兒童的問題最後可能會載留子孫而且會複製現有的一個整個階級的不平衡"},{"start":484.128,"end":507.615,"text":"最後的結果恐怕要甚思啦而且根本恐怕是沒辦法解決目前現有的少子女化問題因為釐清這件事情非常重要這牽扯到後面政策規劃要怎麼定成效怎麼檢驗這麼龐大的預算會不會排擠到我非常關心的像托育教育尤其我至為關心的社福的資源為什麼我這樣問"},{"start":509.395,"end":526.462,"text":"不要沒有看見差異跟弱勢最後就是變成是排平跟擴大貧富差距因為我們在很多政策都看到同一件事情只要不是專門鎖定弱勢最後就會出現參與落差低收入家庭參與的"},{"start":527.842,"end":541.528,"text":"會變成比較少拿的也比較少資源有限的時候本來就應該優先照顧弱勢可是這個條例看不到差異化的一個設計我也看不出來它到底要怎麼如條文所說的去解決貧富差距"},{"start":542.648,"end":570.597,"text":"所以很現實的我們來講那個現實就好就教育發展帳戶的經驗很清楚低收入中低收入家庭常常入不敷出最大問題他就是沒辦法開發穩定的來做存錢所以我就直接問如果中低收入家庭連條件相對優渥的教育發展帳戶都難穩定繳存的話那他們還有餘率去繳這個未來帳戶嗎反而如果通過的話從社會公平正義的角度上來看你怎麼看這兩個帳戶的關係"},{"start":571.897,"end":589.578,"text":"是 包委員 陳儒剛委員剛剛所說的其實對於我們很多很多那個低所得者請教都不可能再去拔光所以就是因為這樣所以我們才來弄這個條例我們讓他一比一的這一個部分另外剛剛陳儒 賴委員剛剛也有提到"},{"start":590.399,"end":619.974,"text":"我們不是只有台積電還有這個高科技我們也有很多港口人外送員還有中小企業這是我們每次要去照顧的你這樣是不是會造成我們現有的就是你的爸媽因為在台積電或者說在這個高所得那你現在就可以來有這個Machine Fund還有國家還要給你這個開戶金我是覺得恐怕會有複製現在目前現有的貧富差距不僅沒有解決反而擴大了"},{"start":620.134,"end":638.893,"text":"所以真的要慎重所以这样我也一直在关心现有的儿童及少年未来教育跟发展账户能不能让更多真正需要的孩子被纳进来得到更多支持没错可是现在看到这账户的资格是跟着社会救助法走我从年初就一直找卫福部跟民团谈那个社会救助法"},{"start":639.494,"end":665.949,"text":"那我就直接問次長我前兩個月代理我們的主持未還委員會考察社會救助跟貧窮的時候團體就很清楚指出需你所收入把人卡在門外民間也倡議要用自述所得來補漏洞你們12月29號次長你自己也跟團體開過會可是還是卡在此題所以你們現在願不願意改還是你們有沒有具體的做法要調整"},{"start":666.489,"end":688.571,"text":"家庭收入的计算方式把净贫但真正有需求的家庭纳进来让真正的发展账户可以保护到更多需要的儿少非常感谢委员这个问题这个命题大概有两个部分第一个我先跟委员报告我们现在目前现有的台湾的社会救助其实从广义来说不是只有低收中低收其实还包括八大津贴"},{"start":689.605,"end":708.779,"text":"那如果把低收中低收當然是2.15但是如果把八大津貼算進來我跟委員報告我們事實上是cover了8.6%所以我們現在目前如果從這個廣義的部分比如說未來我只是說假設未來我們可以把這一個就是牛領津貼的我們或許也可以來納入考量這是第一點"},{"start":709.039,"end":730.769,"text":"另外第二點剛剛委員也垂行到就是有關於社會救助法的這一個部分自訴所得我跟委員報告我們現在目前都在進行相關的一個研擬但是我也跟委員報告現在就是說反正我們現在目前會朝一個大概什麼時候會好因為已經很多次因為我從我們一進來就一直認為社會救助法應該是優先法案真的要幫助弱勢"},{"start":731.989,"end":746.722,"text":"不能讓弱勢在空等我覺得時間真的是不等小孩啦所以呢孩子都長大了結果他還是弱勢在貧窮線那邊所以希望你們可以盡速啦當然我也覺得說今天真的好好談這個未來賬戶的這個議題"},{"start":748.303,"end":771.838,"text":"因為少子女的話不是單一原因造成的要解決就要多管齊下也要請你們也是好好去思考這件事情還有把一千億集中在未來帳戶這一個工具我看不出來這是會是怎麼樣一個有效的方法可能你們是不是也要朝向是說整個的未來教育跟發展帳戶可以怎麼去思考擴大我們的需求讓弱勢的孩子獲得照顧"},{"start":772.458,"end":785.059,"text":"是 報告委員 那個其實卓院長其實也在元旦那邊他有一個裁示就是我們會操擴大的這一個那個弱勢優先的原則來推動 謝謝好 謝謝昭緯 謝謝我們的次長是 感謝祐勤委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167039","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167039","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce06052be4761059f8ae6ea9f55fbd6b8757fca8e6801c49bdd9be7746c6163105b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:44:50 - 11:01:24","影片長度":"00:16:34","會議時間":"2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請考試院秘書長、銓敘部部長、行政院人事行政總處人事長、內政部、教育部、行政院主計總處針對「立法院通過之警、消、公、教退休金改革法案之具體執行措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（ㄧ）委員陳培瑜等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳宗憲等22人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百零四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法第九十三條及第一百零一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、併案審查\n（一）委員翁曉玲等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員林倩綺等21人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零八條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-01-12","start_time":"2026-01-12T10:44:50+08:00","end_time":"2026-01-12T11:01:24+08:00","duration":994,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.278468750000002,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.41221875,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.63159375,"end":18.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.399093750000002,"end":25.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.406593750000003,"end":32.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.03846875,"end":36.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.34159375,"end":38.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.63659375,"end":45.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.142843750000004,"end":40.244093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":40.244093750000005,"end":40.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.41284375,"end":40.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.18409375,"end":48.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.81659375,"end":52.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.61346875,"end":66.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.66596875,"end":77.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.36909375,"end":87.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.84846875000001,"end":91.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.22346875000001,"end":108.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.80721875,"end":116.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.67096875000001,"end":123.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.47159375000001,"end":128.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.66909375,"end":131.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.60096875000002,"end":138.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.97971875000002,"end":148.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.49284375000002,"end":156.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.18784375,"end":184.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.38596875000002,"end":188.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.49096875,"end":192.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.08096875,"end":194.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.66721875000002,"end":203.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.35346875000002,"end":204.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.06221875,"end":205.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.26034375,"end":210.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.37346875,"end":212.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.55034375000002,"end":224.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.26159375,"end":227.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.50159375,"end":230.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.60659375,"end":241.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":241.68096875,"end":244.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.90846875000003,"end":251.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.48534375000003,"end":267.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.87096875000003,"end":272.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.13596875,"end":276.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.13534375,"end":285.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.09596875,"end":292.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.96409375,"end":301.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":302.04284375000003,"end":305.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.86096875000004,"end":306.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":306.86909375000005,"end":317.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.93596875000003,"end":312.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.14596875,"end":335.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.29221875,"end":326.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":336.13034375,"end":355.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.21721875000003,"end":347.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.48721875,"end":348.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.48284375000003,"end":348.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.78659375,"end":348.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.82034375,"end":349.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.03971875,"end":349.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.49534375,"end":349.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04"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謝謝主席辛苦了我們非常遺憾在今年司法法治委員會居然是讓年改走回頭路那我想先請問兩位你們知道工都盟針對2025年的國會亂象有做出了一個年度代表字你們知道是什麼嗎不好意思 我沒有注意"},{"start":39.71,"end":66.733,"text":"我不知道好 我這個謎底揭曉你們一定很有感就是毀啊毀憲亂政的毀啊我們司法法制是第一線是非常的感同身受啊不管是今天刑事訴訟法這種個案是為個人量身定做的修法或者是一再的禁覆二讀不義而絕的這種暴衝式粗糙的立法或修法"},{"start":68.275,"end":86.835,"text":"誘惑甚至是我們司法法制委員會的民主討論是最欠缺的我上週到未還委員會去審查人工生殖法我赫然發現原來在司法法制委員會已經消失已久的民主討論我很高興在其他委員會依舊可以踐行"},{"start":87.916,"end":106.425,"text":"我們在人工生殖法的討論光討論名稱跟條文第一條都保留就花了將近兩個小時主席不會限制每個委員只能三分鐘發言主席也不會限制只能一次發言主席更不會把立委的多元意見的傳達來消音"},{"start":108.906,"end":131.204,"text":"所以說一個制度的毀壞真的是讓我們都要去深思喔這人民的票選的這個毀對應於今天的修法大家都應當慎重的去反除甚至我們不能接受什麼叫做先求有再求好這種立法的思維下一頁"},{"start":132.937,"end":156.23,"text":"年改表決走回頭路年金永續成空 世代爭議也不見了今天的爭點有兩個第一個 翁小玲委員要求我們要返還兩年的退休義扣的退休金事實上關鍵就在於剛剛秘書長已經清楚的說明了就是條文在修正的時候"},{"start":157.487,"end":184.199,"text":"並沒有去定施行日期嘛所以說我們依據過去中央法規標準法13條的規定施行日期就是發佈之日起的三日發生效力嘛這是立法者自己要知道的ABC嘛自己在修法的時候沒有把施行日期的配套思考清楚現在反要求我們要去違法要去把兩年的義扣退休金一併要返還"},{"start":185.439,"end":211.952,"text":"自己修法修不好還要怪全序部真的是毀啦 整座海料料啊 整座都毀啦所以這個部分不該做的不能夠逼考試院來違法行政嘛這是第一個爭點你們早上我的意見理解有沒有錯誤沒有好第二個呢就是在我們試算的那個期限剛剛部長說"},{"start":213.615,"end":241.005,"text":"至少大概六個月因為幾個原因要系統要再重做那還有要跟當事人確認嘛對不對中間又卡一個過年今年過年的年假又不再等我想問一下我們過去在2017年修正年改法案那是進步性的修法的時候我們的準備期是有入法吧"},{"start":241.858,"end":258.669,"text":"對 我們給了一年的實施期間所以當時 過渡期間當時的立法者就沒有發生這種普隆功的 幾週還料料的修法嘛清楚的入法 也給予我們相關的行政部門一個合理作業的時間 試算然後通知當事人"},{"start":259.389,"end":285.439,"text":"所以給了一年 而且當時是入法嘛 對不對那為什麼過去的立法院做得到現在的立法院這麼的 這麼的粗糙這個水準水平真的是走回頭路啊 跟年改一樣 都走回頭路啊那去年的這個警消條例的修法有入法嗎 準備期 也沒有就沒有嘛 這非常符合這一屆國會的特色就是完全沒有把配套想清楚"},{"start":286.175,"end":301.126,"text":"沒有入法沒有像2017年的年改非常嚴謹的給予你們入法的一年的合一的準備期那警消條例也沒有修法也沒有入法但是你們就警消條例試算的這些的經驗值那時候花了多少時間"},{"start":302.09,"end":313.935,"text":"我們大概前前後後也差不多半年啦就是半年是起跳的嘛就是到半年左右我們把最後的審定函發出去那前面就有很多開始做系統更換測試還有確認這樣一個陸陸續續的過程"},{"start":317.436,"end":335.769,"text":"雖然警消人員條例我們現在釋憲中所以雖然暫時沒有執行要等釋憲的結果但是我們也依法律通過你們也去啟動了這個試算而那個半年的時間現在運用在年改的這個案子就是合宜的"},{"start":336.309,"end":354.9,"text":"我們內部事實上是真的做評估我必須尊重同仁作業的那個所以在警消的部分大概當初預估到有4萬個案件那這個呢是我們要重新發出18萬的一個肯定雖然案件有簡單有比較複雜但是我們都希望一起"},{"start":356.44,"end":370.447,"text":"所以六個月真的只是一個合宜時間的最低標準我還很擔心你剛講警消影響是4萬多人這一次公教反年改是18萬所以說委員不要再為難考試院了"},{"start":371.707,"end":386.718,"text":"要不然當初修法的時候自己把配套準備期的時間定清楚嘛所以說真的是整週海料料下一頁你們已經提出釋憲文了是民進黨團也將在本週或下週就會遞案"},{"start":388.479,"end":417.819,"text":"我們期待憲法法庭除了受理釋憲也希望能夠做出暫時處分就我們期待唯有做出暫時處分才能夠讓民進黨團我們所主張的這個年該走回頭路停下來但如果即便送釋憲暫時處分也還沒有出來包括我們尊重大法官是否受理所有的作業程序都是朝要進行要終止的方向所以沒有不執行這個也要講清楚來秘書長"},{"start":419.159,"end":447.728,"text":"因為現在法律已經公佈生效所以在相關的處置上都會合法所以說這個社會也會有些誤解說年改過了你們又不執行事實上當憲法法庭已經恢復運作我們申請釋憲然後希望憲法法庭能夠做出合宜的暫時處分的處分否則我們都還是照法律通過的準備在進行相關的作業審定工作本身就是執行的第一步"},{"start":448.548,"end":471.906,"text":"那這個是需要時間 第一個是不能出錯第二個是不能讓同仁過勞 也不能操之過急去倉促上路所以我希望你們能夠把作業做得嚴謹絕對不能先求有再求好這個也是 李歡迎的壞習慣不要傳染到其他的憲政機關來 部長要補充沒有錯 全局部對於退休案件的審定一向高度嚴謹所以我們一定不能出錯"},{"start":472.786,"end":497.042,"text":"但是這需要作業時間因為這關乎每一位公教人員的權益我們一定會努力做但是我們不想讓他做一個出錯又一堆重新又回來重新要更改所以立法委員自己急救張爆充式的這種壞習慣真的不要強加在其他憲政機關身上好 兩位請回那我請司法院的複密也請法務部的次長不好意思 暫用多一點點時間許次"},{"start":503.447,"end":521.765,"text":"今天對於刑事訴訟法的惡修鼓勵篡政篡到保讓共犯權解套我當然覺得這個是萬萬不可我們絕對反對 下一頁但我要先問我要感謝也肯定這個法務部在中國對於我國檢察官被列他們的台獨打手"},{"start":522.566,"end":551.505,"text":"跟吳思瑤同級 我也是台獨打手但沒有想到我們的司法人員也被這樣子的對待我肯定你們第一時間部長就出來喊話這是傷害台灣的司法獨立中國沒有權利長臂管轄 跨境鎮壓更重要的是 不要傷害台灣的司法主權這是台灣的司法主權下一頁但是呢 我就覺得你們有一個部分就沒有做得特別到位了"},{"start":552.746,"end":576.646,"text":"這麼多的人公然挑戰司法的公信力包括傅坤祺總召公然對社會說 怕賤人沒有背兩三條案怕賣大賣啦這種做法就是社會非常負面的示範包括館長他自己恐嚇國家元首被起訴他居然還來做這種"},{"start":578.325,"end":598.327,"text":"要求總統出庭不出庭就是冤案又開始來民粹跟司法操弄了包括蔡正元三中案定案了以後國民黨黨主席還頒給他實踐一等獎章國民黨是上上下下在鼓勵犯罪嗎"},{"start":599.808,"end":626.007,"text":"還有前兩天看到蔡正元先生跟柯文哲前主席公然非常挑釁的做了一個合拍秀出他們的電子交流所以網路上大家盛傳說到底台灣社會怎麼了這些對於社會的輿論都有影響力的政治人物公然的都來做這些鼓勵犯罪或是摧毀司法公信力的這些操作"},{"start":627.808,"end":635.121,"text":"對應於剛剛我們對於國台辦對台灣的司法人員的這種威嚇跨境鎮壓我們第一時間的來反制"},{"start":636.263,"end":659.381,"text":"我真的覺得台灣的法治教育不能夠海嘹嘹啊我們都參加扶輪社啊扶輪社每年多努力的我們都有這個法治教育委員會去各個學校各個社區推廣正確的法治教育但是當這些人都不斷的在用他的影響力來愚弄司法愚弄民粹的時候你們要do something啊"},{"start":661.824,"end":687.185,"text":"複密跟次長這個部分你們好像就都當然尊重了這他們的言論自由可是站在法律教育法治教育的角色我認為我們不能一再姑息來次長回答我想他們相關人政治人物他的言行社會自由公斷那我想捍衛司法公信力應該是全民都應該來信守來支持的"},{"start":688.172,"end":712.219,"text":"強化法治教育好嗎?當我們知道國內的政治人物搭配著中共的認知作戰都在摧毀台灣的司法主權的時候我們還是要去做必要的事還是要做必要的事 要不然就害怕那些大小的孩子要大胃就要犯法整個社會最大在野黨在鼓勵犯罪我們不能縱容好 下一頁"},{"start":713.806,"end":735.073,"text":"今天這個提案人黃國昌委員到美國去了所以說他的提案是自己不敢面對嗎我也不知道 落跑的真是時間提案人就是黃國昌他自己不敢面對下一頁我來講重點了就是我們法務部反對的幾個理由刑事訴訟法不能被惡修因為我們必須要保全證據我們要"},{"start":738.382,"end":757.559,"text":"不能夠影響打擊犯罪向上溯源的這些作為而且羈押制度不能因為個案受到摧毀對不對淪為犯罪者的保護傘更重要的是現行羈押處分是法官保留法官以比率原則來審定就是確保他的最小傷害"},{"start":758.3,"end":785.582,"text":"大法官釋字392號就很清楚的說負面應當很清楚就是檢察官只有申請權但是就是法官保留只有法官擁有這個權利所以說我們這樣子的要求都是大法官釋字大法官又說話了但立法院又要違憲了我具體還調出我下一頁剛剛大家都講了詐騙集團 毒品都是這些串證者的大宗"},{"start":786.443,"end":801.587,"text":"尤其呢這個電信詐欺的九成的案件也都是透過串證可能讓他逃之夭夭喔所以說我調出司法院的統計報告說過去20年來從2007到2022其實我們當時的准雨積壓率在2007到2014年大概是11700多件但是到"},{"start":813.008,"end":827.937,"text":"14年的時候就是腰斬減少變一半6000件換言之就是法官保留越為謹慎嘛對不對但是呢後來在20232024又幾乎又回到15年前的羈押數原因是什麼"},{"start":829.195,"end":857.172,"text":"就是因為打詐嘛就是因為打詐的需求嘛所以說這是一個新興犯罪社會有共識的事情如果在沒有這些惡意的去篡證湮滅證據的這些打詐詐欺毒品或是性侵的案件如果沒有這些事情的話我們可以回到一個合宜的法官保留他會在侵害最小最小保護的那個原則裡頭去拿捏嘛"},{"start":858.272,"end":868.1,"text":"所以說這個事情黃國昌委員從頭到尾他的提案都是毫無正當性只是為了個案的修法所以我再一次的表達喔"},{"start":869.693,"end":892.584,"text":"我們不要為詐騙集團來脫罪不要讓組織犯罪者獲得保護傘不要為某些政黨的偽造連署讓它成為台灣民主的常態我們也不鼓勵一些竊取國家核心技術譬如說台積電泄密案的這些人可以因為刪除了串證的要件"},{"start":895.788,"end":912.399,"text":"而讓這種竊取國家核心技術的人他可以逃之夭夭當然對於虐童對於兒少性犯罪還有對於共諜的滲透共諜滲透也是這一類非常需要去防範的對象"},{"start":914.266,"end":935.773,"text":"所以如果在野黨執意要把這個二修又要爆充式的修法又要先求有再求好亂修一通最後事情大條了再來趕快修回來司法法制太擅長了啦法院組織法法庭直播不是這樣嗎自己進附二讀修壞了然後再來遷怒於司法院"},{"start":937.079,"end":961.302,"text":"我們不容刑事訴訟法再這樣被惡修何況今天提案人黃國昌自己都畏罪潛逃所以我是建議主席提案人不在我們今天很難討論他怎麼去闡述他的提案的意旨呢當提案人自己都不願意面對了都自己都不敢面對了那我們何必"},{"start":963.126,"end":970.44,"text":"這樣認真的替他審查他的議案呢所以說如果刑事訴訟法被惡修而提案人又不在場"},{"start":972.25,"end":993.366,"text":"那我覺得這樣子的討論是非常沒有踐行民主的原則我們也要尊重黃國昌提案人的權益不是嗎他應當到場來為自己的提案來捍衛不是嗎好我們繼續該捍衛的就堅持我們都不要淪為犯罪者的保護傘被利用了好謝謝主席謝謝大家好"}]}},{"id":"167038","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167038","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce048a76e51ca98fdfdb4bfe832d32782da89ddda9214312ca794c2a44ecd674d185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:45:11 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那有請部長請部長"},{"start":12.078,"end":34.927,"text":"陳委員好部長好那我因為今天還是跟這個彈藥有關係所以我想問一下國防部的意見就是說最近最主要是想要問經濟部但是我在想說問經濟部之前先問一下國防部最主要就是因為賴總統在之前在講這個國防預算七大目標的時候有特別提到要提升軍備的量能然後去帶動經濟"},{"start":38.054,"end":58.165,"text":"帶動經濟這件事情其實並不是國防部職業的責任它比較多是在經濟部因為今年在AI的部分經濟部有去做產促條例的修正因為彈藥跟無人機如果說也真的要納入到我們整個的國防產業來說的話我們經濟部的產促條例有沒有修正的空間"},{"start":62.407,"end":79.224,"text":"那我最主要這樣問的原因就是因為比如說在疫情的時候我們那時候也有這個所謂的口罩國家隊我認為口罩很重要但那時候廠商還是會有一些卻步就是因為他們就預估說可能兩三年之後呢這個可能就沒有什麼市場了所以你要他去設廠要去他生產他還是會有一點這個那個動機不足的問題"},{"start":83.949,"end":110.589,"text":"我們今天當然就是說不管是整個軍備產業的提升民間的加入確實很重要他們也是會有一點猶疑目前在這個產促條例跟產創條例裡面它針對AI的部分是做一些減稅什麼等等之類的措施所以我現在想問經濟部就是說有沒有這樣的一個機會但因為如果真的要這樣做我認為國防部的意見還是重要所以想問一下部長就是說"},{"start":111.77,"end":124.16,"text":"跟經濟部合作這件事情就是說我們去盤點我們現在要在地化我們的經濟民間的這個要來發展就是去符合這個總統講的國防帶動經濟有沒有可能經濟部那邊做一些修正"},{"start":126.629,"end":143.659,"text":"我想就國防部立場我們應該跟經濟部一起協調來就這個我想我們當然要強化我們的國防韌性在地的自主生產當然是很重要很重要的一個能量的建構"},{"start":145.38,"end":168.581,"text":"因為有時候就是會這樣子假設我們接著去問經濟部經濟部就說這個國防部可能會有意見什麼等等他還沒有這樣講所以我在想說趁今天這個機會先問一下國防部如果有機會的話我們下次在會同經濟部討論這一個產促條例修正的時候就可以去考量有沒有可能讓我們的民間加入的時候他在這一個產促條例裡面享有一定的優惠這樣的話更能夠去帶動相關的經濟發展"},{"start":171.403,"end":188.3,"text":"但是倒過來講我也會擔憂一件事情就是說因為民間越來越多的加入但它又是國防的等於是帶動產業的一環我在看國外的時候他們比如說美國他們在這個國防工業基地這個DIB他們也把它納入到CI裡面"},{"start":189.621,"end":217.355,"text":"但是問題是一旦納入到CI有可能會變成是另外一種廠商會卻步的原因因為你一旦納入到CI它要做的事情變多了我們剛剛講我們本來是想要用產速條例的方式增加多一點誘因讓產業能夠進來結果你把它納入到CI之後可能又會變成說它的成本提高但因為世界各國的趨勢就是有可能把它納入到CI所以我想問兩個方向第一個就是它有沒有可能納入到CI這是第一個"},{"start":218.175,"end":243.144,"text":"那第二個就是呢如果他沒有他如果被納入了CI的話我們有沒有辦法去減緩這樣的一個憂慮比如說他可能會享有一定的比如說今天在封控的時候他的海空的運輸可能優先他在停電的時候呢他可能跟醫療院所一樣他不會被先停電就是他有沒有這樣的一些配套措施有在研擬還是說我們目前的這一個目標是先不要把他放到CI"},{"start":245.395,"end":257.819,"text":"我覺得放到CI的這個部分如果你要問我從未來的角度來看可能是勢必是要去做的一件事情那只是說我們現在"},{"start":260.509,"end":286.577,"text":"因為彈藥的部分我想我們先不論了因為我想這個不適宜再公開但是就無人機的這個部分我想大家會開始逐步的會興起一些主要的一些它的系統的職業整合商還有各領組件的供應鏈這個整個那這個如果成為我們"},{"start":288.72,"end":314.811,"text":"就是國家佔領的一個重要來源的時候那這個當然會形成要如何確保它的韌性這個成為當然要成為一個討論的課題如果是這個樣子的話我個人也是認為說納入CI是有它的必要性但是就是就像剛剛講的納入到CI之後有可能會對他們來講對廠商來講它一定會有一些成本所以有什麼搭配的措施可能是在納入CI的過程當中可能需要去考量的"},{"start":315.451,"end":331.042,"text":"這個部分我覺得有些事情等到之後真的開始進入到那個階段的時候我們再來討論這邊我只是先做一個提醒我稍微再講一下因為納入關鍵技術設施以後或者無人機成為國航供應鏈裡面重要的一環一環"},{"start":332.183,"end":352.841,"text":"他們就會變成要被強調要治安因為他會涉及到相關的這些因為TIL程度高到一個程度他就會有一些治安的防護那我們也要查詢他的背景所以會有一些金流然後還有人員的安全查核其實這些不只是您講的這個"},{"start":354.622,"end":383.233,"text":"有關列入CI之後它相關的韌性的維持包括這些應該要進行的事項都是要考慮的這個全部都是因為它就會變成屬於在軍工產業的一環裡面的時候按照美國現在相對的經驗都是對於他們都有些特殊的要求對 這個對雙方來講其實行政成本都會有增加因為我畢竟就是說我們講什麼國防要來帶動這樣的一個經濟它不能只是一個口號而已"},{"start":383.533,"end":403.054,"text":"所以不管是剛剛前面講的這個修法或者說後面這邊搭配的措施我們如果一開始能夠完善化的話這個帶動經濟的效益一定會更好那接下來我想問就是因為剛剛部長也有提到就是無人機就是無人產業那因為最近我看到這一個後面我待會再問就是我把它放到哪裡去了我看一下"},{"start":405.064,"end":428.062,"text":"沒關係我留在這一頁好了就是因為最近我在看這個西班牙那一邊它有歐洲幾個他們自己有辦了一個會那也有歐洲幾個國家的國防部也有去與會那他們在講這一個無人機產業的時候他除了強調本來就是我們國防部有在講的偵打一體啊什麼等等之類的這邊的應用之外他們開始在討論無人機在後勤的運用"},{"start":429.323,"end":455.773,"text":"就是說因為我們之前的報告的內容大部分都還是在強調偵打這個部分我覺得這當然是好事因為這是我們的作戰需求但因為就像所有的作戰作戰都是要看後勤後勤這邊的不管是去中心化讓大家的人力的耗損減低他們已經開始在討論無人機在後勤這方面的使用這個我們台灣很多救災的經驗其實也有可能是有重合的地方所以不知道往來"},{"start":456.253,"end":461.139,"text":"現在在這一個方向我們針對無人產業這個部分針對後勤的部分國防部有沒有什麼規劃"},{"start":462.831,"end":487.08,"text":"現在主要是看無人機的一個技術啦是不是一定有具備一定的技術能力那這個當然有因為他跟真導的要求其實是完全不同的對他要自主導航長時間自控那其中還有一個最重要就是那個負載負載能力如果相關的這個負載的能力不高的話那光運載"},{"start":489.542,"end":510.027,"text":"一箱的彈藥可能就超過它的負荷所以我想這個部分都屬於我們後續就是說我們應該是要來進行考量也要來提升這樣子的一個負載的能力如果說技術能夠到位"},{"start":510.907,"end":524.217,"text":"那互展能力能夠到位的話我想我們不會排除這樣子的一個作為後勤的運用因為我覺得國際這樣的討論應該都是有它的意義存在那我們現在在很多的國家也都有這個軍事協調"},{"start":526.078,"end":548.112,"text":"那如果這個之前我也詢問過了如果不管是人力的增加我們專業的人才能夠在國際多參加這樣的一些會議然後把一些新的事情帶回來討論這對我們來講一定有一定有很大的注意因為它跟前面我們剛剛講的經濟的這個帶動也有很大的關係那我最後一個再問就是說跟我們的後備有關就是因為114年我們不是開始有這個後備戰事的這個實施做法嗎"},{"start":548.803,"end":567.884,"text":"那這個因為後備戰士的招募狀況當然並沒有到非常好那裡面呢就是我遇到幾個案例就是說因為它裡面有一個好像是12年還是10年我記得它有一個時間的限制就是說你今天志願役退了下來然後12年之內等等之類的可以去進入到這個後備戰士"},{"start":569.406,"end":585.238,"text":"那我就遇到滿多人跟我講說就是他已經超過那個年限了但是他的專長或者說他的實力他認為自己是可以來做這件事情所以在這個年限上面的這個調整或者說資格限制這邊呢現在有沒有過嚴的問題還是說其實跟這個無關我們的招募狀況其實是別的問題"},{"start":590.117,"end":611.587,"text":"跟委員報告我覺得是這樣子就是說後備戰士是禮拜六禮拜天來那麼如果是陸軍一般部隊的話如果不能夠融入編制從事相關的任務的話禮拜六禮拜天來"},{"start":612.912,"end":630.101,"text":"坦白講只會增加一個負擔但沒有辦法所以如果看看我們可以思考看看是不是在如果以援兵援單位的一個概念來看的話在演習的時候是不是可以把它類似一個"},{"start":631.212,"end":653.482,"text":"鞭死動員的一個概念然後把它召回我想這可能會符合任務的需求第二個就是說有一些高專的比如說他是修復的或者是像飛行的我們現在已經都在檢討那修復的能量如果他就屬於高專人才"},{"start":655.023,"end":675.611,"text":"他如果要維持他的一個修復的一個能力那願意加入那我覺得這也可以那還有包括一些像水中爆破啦兩棲徵收啦這些我想融入到部隊的新的一個觀念新的武器然後新的"},{"start":677.172,"end":694.649,"text":"這個操作的模式等等我覺得這個是可以來來來討論那飛行員的部分我們也在檢討當中所以我想這個都都會納入我們後續進行的方案好那這個之後呢我們再來看檢討看看他要怎麼去進行因為我們遇到的就他也是支援與退"},{"start":695.049,"end":716.787,"text":"所以它是融入是沒問題但它可能連線不符合但它實力又符合所以針對這樣的狀況我們能不能夠讓真正願意的人資格也符合的專長也符合忠誠度也沒問題的他能夠進入到這個系統這個對我們未來應該是很有幫助對 我們已經在我們討論過一兩次了所以我們或許會再討論好 那我之後再來追這一題謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"167033","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167033","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0b5dc21555a84b6abe6ea9f55fbd6b87589ddda9214312ca73c866e876d24eab55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"10:12:44 - 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太儀早安剛才本席針對今天一些的提案做了一些說明那我們在這個部分再更精進的來做一下討論跟請教那我們今天這個審查刑事訴訟法羈押相關制度的一個修訂"},{"start":39.597,"end":63.592,"text":"那麼整個社會其實都意識到這個羈押作為一個很嚴厲最嚴厲的一個強制處分之一然後在人權的保障跟司法效率的面向那我們今天來討論這樣一個制度是不是就制度面來講是不是周延那本席來引用那個司法院去年7月15號的調查報告那整個報告呢聚焦在台鹽公司陳啟鈺案的這個引發了爭議"},{"start":64.733,"end":78.954,"text":"那當時台南的地方法院認為不羈押的事由然後吳保請回後呢結果被告逃逸了結果引發社會對於法院是否嚴當審理然後檢方是不是沒有善用科技等等這樣的疑慮"},{"start":80.436,"end":93.352,"text":"那麼整個調查顯示各地方法院跟檢察署對於什麼叫做重大什麼叫做矚目案的認定標準不一那也交由各地方來認定有沒有需要再監督的一個機制"},{"start":95.895,"end":115.756,"text":"這個差異可能會影響到強制處分的即時性跟明確性所以本席在這邊就請教你們三個問題第一個是司法院跟法務部你們可不可以說明一下你們目前對於所謂重大矚目的一個標準有沒有相對比較起義的一個看法"},{"start":116.477,"end":135.254,"text":"那這個部分是不是在社會疑慮下有一些更精進的空間那本席認為如果能夠有一些比較一致性的指引或制度性的規範那麼避免羈押審查的這個節奏因為認定的差異產生了程序的落差因此也引起了社會的疑慮"},{"start":136.335,"end":164.486,"text":"那麼第二個部分是那關於強制處分跟專庭的一個推動專庭制度的推動那麼羈押搜索限制出境出海的強制處分現在交由這個專屬的強制處分專庭來審理那雖然有助於形成穩定的一個審查的標準那避免審審審的法官來產生這個預斷但實務上有一些法界的這個專家指出那整個運作上還是有一些制度性的風險也就是說"},{"start":165.146,"end":170.228,"text":"部分的地方法院會因為地域因素或個案的屬性然後讓檢察官或警察可能會傾向選擇某些特定的法院來申請強制羈押處分那麼以台鹽的這個案子為例"},{"start":180.931,"end":209.94,"text":"那麼台南地方法院五十一位法官當中的四位在這個整個強制處分的專庭那是不是你們會不會認為這樣子一個比例比較偏低那難免有些案件會集中在某一些法官的身上那影響到整個審查的品質那最主要外界的觀感可能也有很多的疑慮所以你們是不是可以說明一下那個前述的這個問題那目前有什麼樣一個做法本席還有第三點那還是你們要先就前面兩點先做一個回應跟說明"},{"start":210.816,"end":234.951,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指教那有關於就是說這個重大矚目那個案件我們是有定標準的就是在那個司法院所定的這個法院辦理偵查中申請羈押重大矚目刑事被告案件注意要點中的第一點他就已經有對什麼叫做重大刑事案件還有什麼是那個矚目案件有做一個規定"},{"start":236.091,"end":251.416,"text":"那所以你們在這樣一個規定下就還產生了某一些讓整個社會很驚訝的這樣子一個狀態那這個部分你們是在你們的標準上跟食物的運作上是不是有一些需要再檢討的空間因為就是說那個"},{"start":252.276,"end":267.838,"text":"案件犯罪那个类型呢还有事实的那个状态事实上千变万化所以说他不可能就每个具体的那个情况做规定他势必有一定就是规定的时候要见某部分那个抽象性那这时候就要看"},{"start":268.519,"end":287.335,"text":"法官他怎麼去認定他怎麼去那個認定我想他會存在這個客觀上的情形那有關於那個專庭我們現在大部就是除了就是說那種比較小的像那個一些法院之外像那個福建那個人就很少就是這一些之外的話都有設那個專庭"},{"start":288.456,"end":301.731,"text":"那專庭事實上它是有好處的就是幾年下來呢它運作的也非常成熟因為就是說第一個是那個專業化因為現在刑事案件的那種種類越來越多那個有關於那個"},{"start":304.034,"end":329.676,"text":"強制處分這個部分呢他委由那個專庭來做他可以達成就是大家對於這些那個案件就是的熟悉度還有他們的那個標準也會比較趨於比較那個統一啊所以本席剛才講到的那這樣子您說當然專業上有一些累積那累積之後會不會也有一些比較特定獨斷的一個取向呢這是本席這邊所提出來的就是說人數上然後您說專業上"},{"start":331.417,"end":338.976,"text":"那可能會不會久了就會有這樣一個比較獨斷的取向所以會變成警察或者是警察官特定的一個選擇呢"},{"start":341.431,"end":361.012,"text":"我想這個獨斷這個應該是一個評價上的那個問題啦就是一般其實我覺得他們對於整個那個強處的那個有專庭的設置大部分其實都還蠻那個肯定的對那本席這邊提出來其實這個面向應該也是值得思考你們是不是也可以就這個部分就是當"},{"start":361.593,"end":383.647,"text":"我們累積了很多一致性的一個想法的時候那或許是不是在某一些這個選擇上就會朝向某一個取向那會導致本席這邊所講的有特定的一個選擇你們是不是可以就這個部分也去做一個討論我想也是有人也是有相關的專家有這樣一個反應好不好謝謝委員指教"},{"start":386.349,"end":405.652,"text":"第三個部分在現行的制度下科技監控是一個羈押的替代處分類似像這樣羈押理由為前提需要有存在的羈押理由為前提但是法院認定不具羈押事由的時候檢方也沒有辦法申請科技監控法務部跟司法部是不是可以說明"},{"start":406.312,"end":416.198,"text":"未來是不是在有可能不侵害人權的前提下透過制度的設計來降低院檢認定落差所可能產生的逃逸的風險"},{"start":418.734,"end":439.5,"text":"法務部也要做一個回應我先一個大的回應其實今年從去年以來那個有關於科控的使用那個比例已經非常非常高了那個整個層數有達成非常高的比例這是我先一個補充說明好 謝謝"},{"start":441.42,"end":455.089,"text":"我想透過我們的器材的精進還有我們的研習我們提高我們檢察官跟法官使用的意願所以這個科控我們是提高了那相關的一些作業或者是其他替代的我們還會跟司法院來研議"},{"start":456.024,"end":470.111,"text":"OK 好 所以本席這邊所談的最主要就是一個這個可預期的一個設計不會讓每一個個案讓大家都覺得為什麼這個個案是這樣那個個案是那樣然後再加上一些政治性的連結那就讓社會經常感覺好像這個標準不一"},{"start":474.873,"end":494.041,"text":"那可能個人好惡又會影響整個案件的一個走向所以這個部分就是說這個一次性的標準是不是能夠在不失數也不失守的情況下然後來做一些更精進的研議好不好好那第二個部分本席要請教法務部跟衛福部副秘書長謝謝"},{"start":498.002,"end":511.576,"text":"這個部分本席要針對監所的第一線針對是不是我們整個國家有沒有達到一個基本的人權保障的要求來救教那麼依據這個積壓法跟監獄刑刑法的規定"},{"start":512.797,"end":539.463,"text":"為了要照顧安置受刑人吸入之子女監獄應該規劃適當的活動空間並提供必要的設施子女的戶籍所在地之地方社會福利主管機關也應該要提供必要的協助整個調查法務部跟衛福部你們針對監獄內生活模式跟環境並不是那麼的沒有做相關的系統性的評估"},{"start":540.043,"end":566.692,"text":"那對幼兒的這個身心發展的影響也沒有辦法很妥善的一個合作適切的一輸一些資源那麼導致這個有一點違反兒童權利公約的一個情況那整個基本上來講就是場所的管理還有介護的管理甚至對孩子哭泣的這個處遇方式不但沒有建立一些支持跟同理的育兒環境反而加重了親子的一個心理的壓力而很嚴重的是"},{"start":567.492,"end":589.719,"text":"尤其是非本國籍西陸入監的受刑人那語言的隔閡無法充分理解監所規定的時候這樣子的情形又更越發嚴重那本席這邊提一個案例就是桃園女子監獄那113年的時候呢這個親子園地受刑子女的人數有的時候多達24人然後連續6個月每個月都超過了這個核定的人數"},{"start":595.261,"end":607.505,"text":"核定人數是21人大概最多的時候都是24人如果再連同場設收容的一般修行人每名兒童可以使用的空間只有3.1平方公尺遠低於法務部櫃部所訂定的每一個兒童應該有8平方公尺的標準"},{"start":614.827,"end":634.503,"text":"所以在監所超收的情況下就地方社會福利機關也沒有辦法掌握實際收容的一個狀況那麼各地的辦理水母入監視切性評估時你們是如何來評估對符合子女最佳的利益那是不是有把監所的環境跟超收的情形一併納入考量父母如果已經有這樣的狀況已經蠻辛苦的了"},{"start":640.327,"end":654.124,"text":"那孩子連同著一病在這樣一個情況下在他人生有這麼樣一些印記其實我想都不是太健康所以本席這邊要請教兩個部會目前監所對子女的這個照顧"},{"start":655.665,"end":665.111,"text":"沒有符合這個CRC等人權標準的情形那你們如何全面的評估跟改進那麼桃園女監這個個案已經明顯的低於空間標準的一個場這個場設那你中長城的擴建計畫當中怎麼樣來優先考量相關的育兒設施那在擴建完成前怎麼樣來避免讓幼兒在這種不適切的環境中暴露那這個本席要請教兩個部會那就個案還有全面"},{"start":684.002,"end":708.024,"text":"你們目前怎麼個處理柯委員報告因為今天那個矯正署並沒有派人來列席那市長這邊可不可以就一個對 我們對於這個問題我們是也看到也面臨到不過我們監所這邊也已經非常非常的努力第一個 在空間的使用上我們會盡量排除一些困難"},{"start":708.804,"end":723.495,"text":"加大他的活動的空間這個都已經在做了那再來就是跟衛福部這邊也密切的合作如果有一些醫療或者衛生方面的需求的話我們也會跟他有充分的聯繫"},{"start":724.776,"end":745.284,"text":"我們監所針對這個問題真的非常的認真在執行那就因為它是超收超過了原來監所的設計的原來的想法所以在現有的空間因為我們現在監所還沒驗收完成在空間有限的情況之下我們會盡量讓它有多的空間來使用"},{"start":746.224,"end":754.92,"text":"對 你講的這個是個案的空間我想這一個全面性的問題應該整個法務部可以來做一個整體的評估跟處理我們針對這個問題會審慎的來研究"},{"start":757.97,"end":778.409,"text":"好 那個案的部分就是在比較即時性的部分我想是不是可以趕快找出一些即時性的因應跟處理方式是 是 會 我們會研究好 謝謝那最後是關心本席要關心那個整個少府的這個問題我想本席在這個整個會期已經提很多了"},{"start":779.43,"end":807.836,"text":"我們還是提醒一下 少年事件處理法的第42條第5項跟第6項我們期待法院來召集諮詢會議串聯教育 設政警政跟社安的資源及早介入整合但是司法院目前好像還沒有一個執行的模式人力的配置跟教育訓練的準備周全你們在去年的報告裡面去年11月18號的報告裡面也做這樣的陳述但是整個各地法院的負荷非常"},{"start":808.556,"end":815.081,"text":"沉重那實務上其實極少召開這樣子的會議然後在會議裡面還有實務型的一些做法我想真的在這個現場還確實是很困難那麼現在很重要就是說每個單位的這個方案的內容還有分工的界限還有開案的標準有點不太熟悉那這個當然有本席一直在講的基本的一些問題"},{"start":833.975,"end":848.969,"text":"但是我們在實務操作其實有效的跟法院端形成跨網域的合作其實還是真正有一些困難我想最近大家要抗議的就是轟動的戈井案這裡面也是有一些呈現本席一直談一直談所以在最終本席想請教的是"},{"start":854.033,"end":864.419,"text":"那麼重大案件來揭示問題之後呢那目前我們推動跟法院端跟這個地方政府特別是教育局處設置單位之間明確的聯繫窗口跟標準化協作的流程你們的具體作為怎麼樣去避免資訊落差成為少年案件的一個破口那這個部分是不是可以給本席做一個回應那本席在整個會期裡面一直談到那中央的這個平台"},{"start":881.59,"end":888.952,"text":"雖然副秘書長您這邊也有提到說應該行政院這邊來建立但是是不是你們跟行政院這邊的一個推動像剛才有其他的委員有講到我們長期書記官30年費用通通都沒有調高我想你也希望人事單位的一個支持有的時候就你必須要先提出來或者是可能人事單位會發現不過通常都是第一線的我們才會發現這樣一個問題"},{"start":912.397,"end":925.302,"text":"發現的時候有的時候說這麼久其實常常要做滾動式的檢討我們有可能在很大的業務量裡面就忽略掉某一項所以本席這邊講的是這樣一個少年事件少婦會的一個中央的平台我想在今年我們其實也討論了很多不知道你們現在目前針對這個部分跟行政院的一個"},{"start":934.445,"end":946.675,"text":"不知道你們有沒有提出那或者是有沒有跟行政院的相關單位來研擬這樣一個可能性因為他影響的就是我們食物在地方上的操作我們想的當然是以輔導先行可是呢這個輔導在一個軟性的這個執行程序當中呢就會變成有點鬆散"},{"start":955.462,"end":975.583,"text":"那是不是可以透過中央這樣一個平台然後給各地方一些比較強力的支持那最重要就是說那你們跟行政院這邊是不是有比較積極的已經有做一些積極的溝通了嗎還是只等著本席這邊再幫你們跟行政院要做一些嫁接我想這個部分再請教一下副秘書長"},{"start":977.01,"end":998.945,"text":"謝謝委員 這個部分先前也有向委員報告過因為這個部分還沒有涉及少年犯罪所以說他這時候還沒有司法權介入的情形他完全是一個行政層次所以說這個部分有關於少婦會他怎麼運作跟他的權責我們司法院真的無從介入"},{"start":999.665,"end":1026.657,"text":"那當然也是後來這個整個法律調整了之後那你們就沒有這樣一個權限但是不是就在實務的運作上我們就解決問題的層面上你們有機會來跟行政院來做一個溝通嗎本席當然也是在努力跟行政院這邊來做這樣一個推動但是你也知道這實際上的一個運作因為這個部分司法院完全沒有職責所以我們也無從介入說少府會他應該怎麼樣那個運作"},{"start":1030.474,"end":1050.466,"text":"那本席是認為就是說雖然是職權的這個問題但是我們針對事情的解決也是可以想辦法來積極處理啦這是一個建議啦那當然可能在政府部門大家針對這整個各自的職司有太多的限制那要不然但是你們是不是也可以請這個政委這邊"},{"start":1052.087,"end":1070.54,"text":"或是一些私下的溝通我想你們過去都曾經做過這樣的業務那透過私下的溝通能夠讓這些事情在轉換的過渡期間呢那目前在實地運作上的不足可以透過一些溝通來把它連結起來這是本席的一些本席的用意啦"},{"start":1072.101,"end":1091.173,"text":"提出這樣的建議希望如果有機會我們就針對目前少府的這個問題能夠用各種管道來處理吧好不好最後就提醒一下剛才幾位委員都談到公教的這個有關於這個"},{"start":1093.495,"end":1110.074,"text":"軟體的這個寫作這個問題那我這邊提一個建議我還是要釐清就是說不好意思就考試院這邊假設在你們先說六個月的這樣一個期程那我們知道其實在資訊資訊的這個專業度上有的時候就是如同翁委員今天在質詢的"},{"start":1111.115,"end":1123.289,"text":"在專業上或許有些時候就是一個參數的問題但是王委員提的是他提的是另外一個可能性就是說未來是不是也可以給個人有機會去做一個檢視那本席是認為以現在台灣這樣一個AI的"},{"start":1126.593,"end":1131.435,"text":"國度我們在資訊的這個軟體程式上的寫作應該不至於要那麼長的時間所以是不是可以請這個考試院相對比較積極一點雖然規定的時間是這樣但是我們為了所有相關人的一個權益我們或許可以更積極的然後在速度上來推動的比較快一點"},{"start":1146.101,"end":1168.009,"text":"那我覺得汪委員的建議也很不錯啦未來如果能夠讓個人也可以計算的話但我想這又是另外一個這個城市性的問題所以本席這邊提一個建議就針對目前會影響到相關的權益人的這個部分是不是速度可以加快一點那至於那個汪委員那個很好的一個建議那我覺得也可以減少未來一些問題那我相信城市應該是這個關係到大家應該不至於說"},{"start":1170.931,"end":1185.104,"text":"會出錯啦 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有請顧部長部長好部長我們今天特別會去釘釘這個議題希望國防部可以更清楚的說明很重要的一個因素是我們在近期看到從子彈到火藥"},{"start":25.031,"end":40.738,"text":"它發生的問題其實它兩個事件我們看到它有一個共同的起點它都不是我們自己不能生產我們本身都可以做而且過去不管品質、規格還有價錢其實都算是不錯的"},{"start":42.038,"end":53.047,"text":"可是我們現在卻一再的決定一定要外購我們想要知道主要的原因是什麼因為從早就是一開始到現在我們聽到很多的回答其實是非常矛盾的就剛剛有提到說我們這個產線在新廠到底什麼時候開始我們到底有多少產量這個部分我想在去年就已經對外本來去年8月就應該要"},{"start":71.861,"end":99.86,"text":"完成可是後來又到12月說12月其實就可以開始量產那現在又好像要延到今年的3月所以到底什麼時候新廠可以開始跟委員報告我們的委協書就是如同委員所說明的我們的跟中科院的委協書是到114年的12月31號那目前我們的機具也跟委員之前說明的都已經到新的一個營區不管是"},{"start":100.58,"end":104.964,"text":"我們不是要知道這個詳細的那個因為他已經延宕了剛剛你們拿疫情來當理由說因為高雄市政府是因為疫情的關係所以我們的土建延後如果要用這個理由那他也已經延過了因為本來應該是前年要完成的我們已經延了一年那現在在去年又好像沒有辦法完成現在又要延到今年三月三月確定可以嗎確定可以"},{"start":128.562,"end":136.211,"text":"確定可以所有的四線都可以生產5.56我還是上禮拜跟委員報告5.56是3月其他三條線是9月"},{"start":138.653,"end":144.817,"text":"9月所以你又要再往後延一年沒有沒有沒有沒有今年今年3月就是5.56沒有你這個本來應該前年要完成去後來你們對外宣稱說去年12月就可以開始量產那現在又要延到3月跟9月等於你又要延了將近一年的時間是這樣嗎"},{"start":160.066,"end":168.31,"text":"跟委員報告我們跟中坤的委協書是到去年12月31號了委協書我都有看了確實我們假如是以委協書來量產我們現在要知道的是我們一言再言的原因是什麼因為這樣沒有影響戰力嗎當你急著編很大筆的預算要外購的時候我們要先很清楚的知道我們自己內部到底發生什麼問題因為為什麼我說你們的說法是很矛盾的剛剛有提到我們過去的舊廠舊縣"},{"start":190.02,"end":200.723,"text":"只有兩條生產線它不但可以符合我們自己的訓量符合我們自己國內的需求而且還可以賣給其他國家還可以賣給民間賣給美國在作戰的時候使用可是現在我們增加了四條線新廠有四條新的生產線還再加上兩條舊的生產線你們號稱可以生產一億發的子彈"},{"start":217.048,"end":245.565,"text":"可是現在還需要外購原因是什麼委員報告齁 就我跟軍備局的了解是這樣就是說 現況上來講 即使布布林有沒有搬遷他的5.56公里的這個彈藥跟7.6公里的彈藥是共線嘛那所以他生產的時候如果是生產5.56 他就不能夠生產7.6你們以前不知道嗎對 但是我講的是現況 不是以前不知道那我們現在講的是說 我們現在新的線拆線"},{"start":246.425,"end":265.291,"text":"接下來中科院的部分那中科院是不是要說明一下他4條新的線4條新的線那他都可以同時間產製那另外有在跟委員報告就是那個底火的部分底火的部分現在也要透過特別預算來增加那一個底火的產線因為底火才能夠支撐整個彈藥的一個生產每顆彈藥就要一顆底火"},{"start":269.873,"end":288.249,"text":"那所以底火的部分透過特別預算會增加到原來現況是兩千四百萬那現在底火的部分是四千八九千九千多那如果能夠才暫時的三班次的話那就會再增加大概大概現況跟"},{"start":289.89,"end":291.512,"text":"跟現在要加強的狀況大概是我們用很簡單的方法來算我們剛剛有提到舊線就是兩條新線再增加四條我們總共有六條生產線你說我們現在一億發的這個子彈敵火會不足"},{"start":306.03,"end":309.611,"text":"你明明知道你要生產的是一億發的子彈你的底火沒有辦法生產你當初是怎麼設計這四條生產線你現在如果我們沒有特別預算那你的底火怎麼辦你當初這個是怎麼設計出來的這是我說的第一個矛盾的地方第二個為什麼是一定要用特別預算你在過去新廠的"},{"start":328.195,"end":332.377,"text":"在建制的時候我們所有的產線在建制的時候你們用的都是生殖基金為什麼你現在如果有真的需要照理說是不應該現在還要增加這個部分這個根本就是強詞多理你在設計的時候生產一億發的時候你沒有辦法設計生產低火那你要怎麼生產一億發的子彈如果他3月開始他9月開始你沒有這個低火的生產線一億發這個怎麼生產出來"},{"start":357.407,"end":364.553,"text":"這是第一個矛盾的地方第二個就是你不是用特別預算今天我們聽到現在好像大家都在幫特別預算在爭取而已而不是解決我們現在目前我們產生的疑問剛剛不管小口徑也好或者大口徑的彈藥也好你們都說一定要有這個特別預算才可以生產我們過去中科院做那麼多的飛彈你們號稱"},{"start":383.209,"end":392.331,"text":"可以在我們每年的機密預算裡面我們每年不管熊系列不管天公系列不管其他的彈藥我們都沒有發生過這樣的問題今天突然需要特別預算的時候大家都需要從那裡出來了所以你過去是怎麼做的我們現在要討論的就是剛剛我們提到的"},{"start":402.654,"end":404.436,"text":"所有的彈藥你今天兩條舊線30年前的生產線你都可以自我滿足然後還可以出售甚至可以提供他國的戰爭使用"},{"start":418.071,"end":423.333,"text":"那個一直用到2020年都是6塊錢那個你們說的那個錢都是話術啦我們賣給他6塊美國就是提供低火跟跟那個發射藥沒有錯可是其他的全部都是我們的生殖中我們自己的205廠生產的所以我們不只是代工你明明就可以做一整顆完整的可以賣給人家我現在要提到的是這個部分第二個就是我們現在"},{"start":446.843,"end":454.104,"text":"剛剛你們也提到那個價格的部分114年我們國防部綠定的普通彈跟鋼心彈的價格是多少"},{"start":457.965,"end":475.002,"text":"114年我直接講好了114年普通蛋你們訂的是9塊錢就是國防部如果要跟軍備局買普通蛋是9塊錢剛興蛋是14塊你們訂的是14塊包括你們在今年的預算就是今年的預算沒有14塊"},{"start":480.732,"end":484.215,"text":"報委員我們沒有訂14塊這個你們綠定的價格14塊不然你的你知道你115年的那個公務預算今年我們算還沒有審可是你的公務預算裡面編列8.9億要向生殖中心購置這個6200萬發"},{"start":499.509,"end":501.39,"text":"我們把它換算下來就是14塊出頭就是14塊所以你包括今年編的要買的其實也是14塊可是你在招標上公告上面他一顆的價格高達18.8塊雖然絕標價是15塊多所以我剛剛聽你們說綠定的價格變成16塊我覺得是"},{"start":521.844,"end":532.28,"text":"得標以後才滾動式的修正因為你們自己看你們的公務預算不要搖頭也不要在這裡說你們沒有清楚的再去查你們114年綠定的這個一定有一定有正式的文書資料"},{"start":536.987,"end":552.382,"text":"容我簡單跟您報告一下一百五十五年公務預算所編列的十四塊一他是十四塊一的時候他那個是最先入軍為了這個這個鋼心彈的需求做的一個訪商尋商的一個價格那實際上"},{"start":554.684,"end":558.067,"text":"這個軍備局他對外招標的時候是在去年年底那這個是一個物價上面的差異性所以最終他是以他15.13以來的標美國的網站同規格的子彈比國防部採購的價格低了近三成自己先去查清楚再來回答這些相關的問題我們目前所有看到的而且我想請教部長我們看一下我們這一次"},{"start":581.226,"end":588.99,"text":"要採購的都是我們這一次裡面很重要一個有5.56步槍彈的這個型號我想請教部長這四個型號你大概知道這是什麼彈嗎上面有這個應該依序是這個左邊是普通彈然後這個是鋼心彈和那個M855A1的這個就是一個加強版的"},{"start":606.738,"end":629.561,"text":"M85A1是哪一個M85A1是最右邊那第三個勒五星彈好 我們這次要買的是什麼彈我們這次要買第二個 綠色彈頭的M85 鋼芯彈嘛我們自己能不能做 新產線可以嘛所以我們自己能做 為什麼你們還沒做的時候你要外購"},{"start":631.451,"end":634.893,"text":"而且幾乎全部外購為什麼這剛剛已經說明了剛剛已經跟委員報告為什麼因為最主要就是因為這個一年期一物一的徵集還有叫一物一的徵集我們所有的訓場我們所有的靶場我們所有的時間我們所有的教官我們能夠安排的可以打靶的時間有多少那個都可以算得出來是的"},{"start":651.82,"end":655.481,"text":"你突然說今年要增加這麼多的一個彈量我剛剛一直提到我們現在有兩個舊線再加上四條新的線它可以生產普通彈也可以生產鋼芯彈就是我們這一次外購的M855鋼芯彈我們買的確定不是M855A1嘛對不對 M855"},{"start":672.665,"end":675.746,"text":"M855你們再仔細去查一下人家的價格因為現在美國全部都要把它賣掉美國現在用的M855A1鋼心彈因為它M855已經不用了第一不環保第二其實它的殺傷力並沒有想像這麼好"},{"start":689.793,"end":691.174,"text":"他對人員的那個可能供給也沒有像我們說的這麼好所以我現在要請教的是為什麼我們一定要外購我們為什麼生產會不足我剛剛已經講過相關的理由你一年可以生產一億發喔"},{"start":707.364,"end":709.866,"text":"那你現在有很多還是需要外購在今天的專報書面資料和跟委員的說明已經報告過從111年到114年我們整個實戰化的訓練和整個教招和義務役還有我們我剛剛也說過了我剛剛也說過了"},{"start":724.737,"end":727.899,"text":"我們現在我們的庫存有滿山滿谷的855鋼心彈那時候美國軍援的子彈就是855鋼心彈855鋼心彈我們在訓練的時候為什麼不會用很重要的就是它對於我們的槍管會磨損它很多很多的靶場現在根本禁止使用這是第一點我必須向您報告我們現行部隊"},{"start":751.194,"end":753.836,"text":"經常性射擊的我們在鋼心彈的射擊的彈數裡面佔了83%一直以來我們在現行的訓練裡面沒有 現行訓練裡面從過去到現在一直是使用普通彈跟鋼心彈而且鋼心彈的比例佔了87%鋼心彈是什麼鋼心彈是用在什麼地方練習"},{"start":773.43,"end":791.862,"text":"就是一般的靶場我們現行的靶場就是在使用並沒有為了這一次才特別去買這個為什麼過去都不用你從以前就87%都是把它講清楚一直都有在使用參謀長一直都有在使用它是在哪些時候有使用我們過去沒有自己做對不對從民國93以後我們過去也沒有買我們就沒有在採購都是從庫儲推好那它從哪裡來你庫儲是戰備庫儲說採購的來推好戰備庫儲是哪裡來的"},{"start":803.804,"end":804.628,"text":"在93年以前採購的"},{"start":805.726,"end":808.827,"text":"93年以前採購的數量可以用到我們一百一十幾年所以我們的庫儲佔備其實非常多這個詳細的數量我們現在還有我們現在要釐清的就是這個已經很多包括美國其實他都不用了可是這個我必須容我跟您報告M85A1也是我們積極爭取的一個彈藥但是目前"},{"start":833.812,"end":850.822,"text":"是沒有管制出口是管制出口所以我們目前最在這個鋼芯彈裡面我們最高的就是能用到M85鋼芯彈用在什麼地方的練習設計用在什麼地方參謀長不要只說你都有把比較具體的隨便舉例說出來現行的部隊舉例幾個任何駐地基地和三軍聯訓我們所停領的彈藥現行就是普通彈 鋼芯彈這兩種"},{"start":862.32,"end":868.743,"text":"按照現在的資料統計近三年5.56公里的步槍彈每年平均訊號5367萬餘發普通彈是860萬餘發剛性彈就4506萬發就是剛剛參謀長講的佔到83%"},{"start":880.968,"end":889.012,"text":"過去的來源是什麼因為部長如果我們每年你現在從93年開始一直到現在每年有4000多萬發你用的都是鋼心彈可是我們卻從來沒有採購過我們也從來沒有做過原來111年的時候至少現在資料顯示111年的時候還只有2340萬發嘛萬餘發嘛所以他這個訓量就一直增加嘛"},{"start":912.627,"end":918.163,"text":"2340萬餘發我現在要說的部長我想我們可以再把資料找來你要不要說明一下"},{"start":920.615,"end":937.693,"text":"委員好 我是彈藥處處長跟委員做個說明我們之前在100年左右我們國軍的這個子彈至少有大概五六億左右那後續接著因為裁軍的因為一些關係我們這子彈是超量的時間的關係我只要你們具體的我簡單的講第一"},{"start":941.417,"end":950.182,"text":"我們鋼芯彈過去舊線從來沒有自己生產過對不對我們從90年之後沒有再買但是我們以前大概有三四億發三四億發用了十幾年你的意思好這樣"},{"start":956.712,"end":974.568,"text":"90年以前有買過然後美國也有軍援我們現在在訓練的時候大家都是在什麼地方使用我很可能有一些誤解我們這些鋼心彈有些已經都超過差不多30年那你再不把它做社訓推號的話它接下來就要報廢所以我們在"},{"start":975.769,"end":979.452,"text":"10年前大概就是以一成左右來做這個規號沒關係 我們用邏輯來講嘛你今天說那個有的都已經超過30年所以那個不能用可是你這幾年全部都沒有突然在今年才開始有而且你的價格非常高而且同時跟我們的火藥同時一起對外採購我們要強調的是"},{"start":1000.928,"end":1004.81,"text":"第一這個是我們的新產線是可以自己生產的你今天如果你的訊量要增加我們自己的產線也可以生產這個鋼芯彈這是第一個它不是只能生產普通彈喔它只是彈頭轉換而已所以我們的新產線是可以生產鋼芯彈如果我們真的有這樣的需求的時候"},{"start":1022.72,"end":1028.501,"text":"第二個 我們所有的武器裝備我們其實是更老舊的為什麼大家不用鋼芯彈剛剛我們提到一個很重要的因素它會對我們的槍管造成火損這個855並不會對槍管造成過度的磨耗因為它本身的糖壓跟您所說的那個A1是不一樣你說 你現在的回答跟大家的認知不一樣因為我們現時使用的就是855鋼芯彈沒關係 你現在"},{"start":1049.145,"end":1053.388,"text":"那你855鋼型彈已經用很多嘛我現在要的 確切的這樣的資料參謀長請你 你是陸軍參謀長855跟855A1那855A1比那個優秀的地方在哪裡第一個他本身你為什麼訓練不是 我再請教一個問題好了訓練的時候你為什麼不用普通彈"},{"start":1073.803,"end":1076.644,"text":"因為一個6塊4塊多算6塊好了一個6塊然後一個你們訂了18塊8沒有說訓練不能用沒有說訓練不能用普通彈我們整個一切的採購我們一切的戰備存量參謀長告訴我們為什麼你在訓練不是用普通彈我們訓練的很多彈藥必須要從戰備來推耗以節約這個攻堂和避免再做廢彈的處理"},{"start":1099.773,"end":1110.719,"text":"他的價格是他的三倍請告訴我們推號我們可以理解可是你的普通蛋一定比鋼心蛋多得多因為你從過去到現在你生產的都是普通蛋庫存的普通蛋量是比鋼心蛋還少所以我們剛剛也報告了在普通蛋我們推號完畢之後我們為了平站一致和為了能夠有較佳的貫穿力我們會採購鋼心蛋"},{"start":1125.543,"end":1130.929,"text":"所以你的鋼芯彈是要來做戰備儲存的戰備儲存可是你在採購的時候你是說要訓練喔沒有報告在預算書表裡面是講戰備儲存及教育訓練用彈補充"},{"start":1141.721,"end":1146.044,"text":"你的採購書採購公告採購上面說的是訓練的你們自己再去看清楚所以其實我們就是還是回過頭來我們要知道的為什麼我們的產線沒有辦法自己生產因為如果你要做到生產鋼心蛋也沒有問題可是你卻要外購應該要告訴大家我們的生產線有沒有問題報委員應該就我的需求來說我先不談生產"},{"start":1170.161,"end":1191.91,"text":"今天如果在國會的殿堂上面參謀長沒關係你已經解釋了今天如果在國會的殿堂上面這個都是有記錄的如果有人公然說謊未來是不是大家要負起這樣的責任都可以嘛所以我們希望你再回去查查一下"},{"start":1192.89,"end":1196.772,"text":"M855鋼心彈對我們的武器裝備會不會造成損耗他的壽命是不是會減短這是很普通的常識因為M855A1是美方現在全面要的我們要第一個提醒是我們不要"},{"start":1212.422,"end":1221.066,"text":"去幫人家清庫存第二個我們自己能做的因為你每次都說要國防自主當你花了五十幾億又增加二十幾億去增加這些生產線到現在還沒有辦法做出我們需求的彈藥這個問題到底出在哪裡這個可能陸續後面還要再追蹤我們現在要講的是你講得很清楚嘛等他生產的線擴線以後我們就有嘛"},{"start":1235.213,"end":1238.215,"text":"部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年部長你已經延了兩年"},{"start":1251.583,"end":1255.885,"text":"我們過去的戰備存量我們因為我們要建廠所以其實我們沒有賣出去我們把它用在戰備就是我們的戰備用量還有我們的訓量那時候所以我們沒有在外就是沒有把它賣出去所以那就是在估計我們的戰備存量"},{"start":1271.773,"end":1286.351,"text":"部長如果像你剛剛說的那個理由都不是現在應該有的理由我們現在講的是我們的新產線照理都應該要能夠馬上生產我們自己自主不然我們就不用增加這個啊今天你如果因為多了一些義務役我們現在的國軍是減少的"},{"start":1289.975,"end":1294.278,"text":"然後你說我們那個戰備存量跟我們的那個訓練的彈藥是不足的這是第一點矛盾第二個我們自己能做一直強調明明我們自己能做用到了我們的戰備存量所以我們要先去補戰備存量所以現在有一個部長那是他們跟你說的嘛我就說他的戰備存量他每年都在計算嘛他以前就已經都補足了所以他沒有賣出去嘛他以前每年都有賣給其他國家他甚至賣出5億發"},{"start":1320.378,"end":1343.653,"text":"報告委員我必須再報告一點因為我們現在戰備對於庫儲基準的調整是提升的所以並不能用以前那這個提升的比例我不方便在這裡公開講下去可以跟委員報告他是提升相當大的因為我們不能仰賴作戰的時候才去考量到這個緊急的生產或是外援那那個整個是不太可能所以我們是提升了戰備的滿足率我們再提醒一次"},{"start":1346.074,"end":1350.576,"text":"我們花了很多的錢好幾十億我們蓋了新產線就是為了要增加我們的製彈量這是第一點第二個我們如果是要增加我們的訓練用彈那你應該用的是普通彈你即使我們普通彈去年編了大概四千多萬的預算四億多然後要買四千多四千多萬發"},{"start":1373.826,"end":1381.768,"text":"事實上好像也沒有足額的提供所以如果像這樣子普通彈是訓練用的你的戰備彈是另外的考量這個部分我們再次提醒如果說你們用這一個沒有辦法好好的解釋我覺得這後續可能還會衍生更大的問題就這個部分提供詳細的資訊我們下去會會同相關單位到委員辦公室向您做完整的說明確定的時間是今年 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那個次長你那個盡量唱首一言"},{"start":104.515,"end":123.252,"text":"非常感谢赖委员对于这个问题的关系非常佩服委员对这个问题的看法我想分三个部分第一个少子女化的成因我跟委员还有各位报告population studies这个是人口学第一集的2000年就有一篇非常重要的论文OECD国家18国他们发现"},{"start":124.053,"end":148.79,"text":"少子女化的一個解決對策是一個多元的一個策略跟多元的問題那麼在這裡面根據多元的問題多元的複雜成因所以要有一個整個相關的一個政策配套那這裡面大概有四個最重要的一個政策第一個應該是性別平等第二個是家庭與工作平等第三應該是有關於公托托育第四最後才是育兒津貼"},{"start":149.651,"end":167.853,"text":"我想這是一個多元的一個組合那這個也是我們少子女化計畫從107年開始到我們現在我們也已經提出一個2.0的計畫到大院我們的一個基本的精神我想大家都知道這個是一個複雜的問題所以我們也必須要有一個整個有效率的策略那但跟委員報告"},{"start":168.874,"end":180.756,"text":"但是在這樣的一個考量之下我恐怕必須要說我們現在目前所提出的這一個條例當然大家都希望能夠共同來解決少子女化的問題但是恐怕"},{"start":182.629,"end":201.174,"text":"恐怕會有偏食的問題會有偏食的問題林瑞琴委員剛剛也有提到就是說政策就是一個選擇你今天選擇A可能會排斥B如果今天我們有一個非常非常充足的財源那當然沒有問題那現在目前就是說你是獨孤一位有可能就排擠到我們現在目前現有的一個"},{"start":203.334,"end":218.922,"text":"一個公托的一個推動還有譬如說相關的一個的一個策略所以這恐怕是第二個問題第三個就成如剛剛委員所說的其實對於我們現在目前很多很多育兒父母來說其實最重要事實上是麵包跟牛奶你現在小孩你要先吃東西啊"},{"start":220.743,"end":242.092,"text":"所以政府現在推測基本上就是想方設法來降低他們的負擔那針對延後幾戶在這一個行政上的一個設計我想聽聽衛福部的說法你認為說延後幾戶有機會提升現在的生意力的增加嗎 還有多少貢獻"},{"start":243.172,"end":262.585,"text":"報告委員我是研究那個人口政策跟福利政策我跟委員報告我在目前國內國際的期刊我沒有看到一篇有關於這方面的研究是沒有沒有人當然就是說但是有有有關於那個儲蓄賬戶這個最主要是為了要減貧就是poverty reduction但是"},{"start":263.365,"end":289.179,"text":"你說用這個來提升生育率這個我是覺得恐怕不可以委員 容許我我想在這裡我們必須要去正視就是在網路上網路上有很多就是說比較針對的一個投資的網紅他有特別講到他竟然是講說不生小孩是存款的一個寬備不生小孩你的財富會更自由"},{"start":290.72,"end":312.792,"text":"很多的年輕人其實慢慢的會受影響說小孩子是一個護資產但回到根本生不生小孩對他們有什麼樣的一個好處我想這是一個很大的一個學問所以你又是這一方面的專家我們希望你可以提供更多的一個資訊給我們倒是我想問一下我們護稅署署長就是說"},{"start":315.753,"end":342.18,"text":"這個租稅的公平行政院是不是可以接受集平計戶的這樣的一個政策你年存10萬然後想那個綜合所得稅的扣除額他18歲提領了數百萬那可是對於窮人來講的話生活會他已經透支了他沒有辦法去儲蓄了他也更沒有辦法享受到這個節稅這個節稅的一個優惠那你提供中手稅那個"},{"start":343.88,"end":359.996,"text":"扣除扣除而來對弱勢家庭是不是有實際上的一個利益那如果你將高所得的享有較大福利的一個減稅的利益是不是會違反了租稅的公平我想站在護稅署的立場是不是可以跟我們做一個分析一下"},{"start":360.476,"end":390.156,"text":"報告委員 委員分析已經非常透徹但是我還是再補充一下就是說因為現在我們在看所得稅的扣除的時候一般是費用的部分那這是屬於存款一般存款跟我們所得課稅是沒有關係這可以觀察在我們所有的包含以前兒少賬戶的相關條例裡面也都沒有給扣除的優惠我們再去觀察美國跟英國他們所推出的這個賬戶也沒有給扣除"},{"start":390.796,"end":407.866,"text":"是沒有給扣除的優惠 都沒有我們非常確定為什麼因為他們觀察到就像委員所講現在有能力再拿錢出來儲蓄存到未來小孩子18歲又給小孩子用的人其實說真的對中低所得者來講是一件很困難的事情"},{"start":408.566,"end":431.597,"text":"非常非常困難所以到最後你每年10萬的限額其實當不獲利者會變得高所得者變得高所得者那我們現在44%的人是不用繳稅36%的人是繳5%所以對這些人來講你給他扣除的減稅率是非常低的非常低到最後都是有錢人在減稅"},{"start":432.637,"end":449.324,"text":"所以所以署長我我當我看到了這一個就是說那個未來帳戶的特別條例裡頭因為我們長期就是在財政委員會裡頭我也覺得說有點混亂掉了到底投資跟除夕對這個少子化有多少深遠的影響"},{"start":449.984,"end":472.429,"text":"那我再請教你現行的徵刑稅跟免稅額度是不是足夠來使用那家長將自有的一個款項存入了台灣的未來帳戶那如果他依遺產稅跟稅法第四條第二項的一個規定家長對於帳戶開戶人的贈意跟現行的那個贈意那個納稅義務人"},{"start":475.531,"end":486.311,"text":"每年得至增跟總額中減免免稅額244萬這對一般的家庭是不是已經適用了如果就是說"},{"start":487.799,"end":505.127,"text":"提供的那個免稅增益額稅額的計算方式的話那這個有沒有矛盾啊是 報告委員齁像我們增益稅現在每年都給244萬的免稅是一個人244萬所以一般我們現在觀察到的大部分的家庭真的都夠了"},{"start":505.527,"end":522.701,"text":"所以你現在變成說是高所得者他在贈餘給小孩的時候他才會碰到課稅的問題那你現在又跟他說不納入贈餘免稅額的計算等於額外給他更多的贈餘免稅那又是剛才就像我剛才講的委員剛才也有觀察到其實到最後還是對高採負責有利"},{"start":524.022,"end":541.33,"text":"是啊是啊这个是不是对帮忙那个有钱的人就开了另外的一道门好谢谢那我想再简单的再那个请教一下我们那个劳动部就是说在这里有一个特别的一个议题要请教劳动部就是说"},{"start":542.53,"end":559.465,"text":"針對的這一份草案第三條跟第十四條允許企業贊助自家員工子女就是說階級化的一個延伸在我看來是這樣子如果就是說這個自家員工的子女這個會不會造成說父母親在哪邊上班"},{"start":560.146,"end":575.375,"text":"然後就決定這個孩子領了多少錢會不會讓我們覺得說企業的贊助有階級化的一個延伸那是不是會讓小孩子就是贏在起跑點上職業決定孩子的身價"},{"start":577.097,"end":593.033,"text":"會不會有這樣的一個情況是委員好委員所提的當然就整個制度設計的時候在主管機關衛福部這邊會做一個整體的考量那每一個相關的制度設計絕對在執行面上都會有一些相對應所反映出來的一個效果"},{"start":593.493,"end":615.442,"text":"是啊沒有錯啊我們台灣不是都只有台積電跟小積電其實我們台灣百工百業我們其他的傳產產業還是佔了八成以上那你想到了就是這些中小企業這些外送員這些基層的勞工他如果沒有企業的贊助的話他的孩子在這一個政策上他是被遺忘了是不是我可以這樣講啦沒錯"},{"start":620.088,"end":641.495,"text":"委員的確會有一些實務上面的反應 是啊好 那我想我們大家再努力啦 因為這是一個很好的一個那個草案那我們怎麼樣那個讓他透過不斷的一個討論可以讓他更周全 好 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝外匯委員 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陳委員好部長好剛剛有聽到有些委員他講到說藍白是倉促的提案但我在這邊就想跟您回顧一下記得11月28我做總質詢的時候是不是我就跟你還有行政院院長垂詢過這個問題了"},{"start":33.03,"end":56.966,"text":"是嗎你還記得嗎11月28的時候我曾經提到有多項政策都可能對少子化有幫助而這個是本來在你主責的衛福部下面所管理的兒少帳戶他的利益非常良好可是後來落實的不好那我跟你提醒一下那天我跟你討論有三個原因為什麼兒少帳戶他沒有辦法做好"},{"start":57.566,"end":78.998,"text":"第一個原因是他的過程比較繁瑣因為必須要這個人實際上去開戶嘛那第二個原因是很多人他是不繼續跟你衛福部去match存錢這些家庭他可能因為一些其他的原因他把資源配置到其他的地方所以他一旦有開戶前面有存後面也就沒有繼續存了"},{"start":79.938,"end":107.579,"text":"那第三個呢我還告訴你說他的那個執行率很差在某些縣市可能四五成但大部分落在六七成所以你既然要做這個國家的戰略工具你應該就是要把它擴大所以當時呢我還舉了英國的例子還舉了新加坡的例子跟你說我認為應該要這樣子做比如說全面都做一個兒童帳戶那你的match也不錯但是遇到"},{"start":108.8,"end":122.451,"text":"不足的 比如說你們衛福部針對的這些中低收入戶等等 它的誘因不足你們應該要把它match1到1.5或者1到2或1到3然後我們還進行了一個財務試算 你還記得嗎你現在想的錢嘛 11月28"},{"start":128.102,"end":145.062,"text":"時間有點久不過確實有類似這樣的對話啦所以當時我就已經propose你一個不錯的做法可以改善你現行的方式而且他在財務上我也都幫你算好了因為退場出去的人多嘛進場進來的人少現在進場是10萬"},{"start":147.765,"end":165.459,"text":"明年很多人怕是9萬8萬欸那假使因為你有這個賬戶 進場的人數變多也不可能多到讓你財務上有很大的負擔我自己也已經送提案了 但是很遺憾11月28 今天已經1月13囉當時你跟行政院院長回覆我說好 你們聽完了以後 你們說你們要回去演你可是我現在一個報告都沒有收到你們說要回去演你喔"},{"start":174.286,"end":178.81,"text":"我一個報告一個回覆都沒有收到那今天你們的報告也沒有寫說你們想要如何來擴展或者是擴大你們現有的發展帳戶因為這個是卓榮泰院長說的啊他近期聽到有這樣子的idea他就說ok我們衛福部有一個兒少發展教育發展帳戶我們應該要把它擴大就只有標題"},{"start":199.145,"end":206.509,"text":"所以今天我是要跟你討論他只有講到標題那你內容你到底要怎麼做因為你今天的報告沒有說嘛跟委員說明我們其實已經一直在研議中應該很快的會有我們的新的做法那一旦有定案之後我會來跟委員做說明"},{"start":220.424,"end":245.256,"text":"那你先講啊你要從哪幾個方向去修改去擴大我想最重要的還是先從這個弱勢優先那我們目前所這個對象上還是只在低收入戶跟中低收入戶我剛已經說了你的弱勢沒有你的弱勢就已經執行的不好我剛跟你講了三四個原因了這是我11月就告訴你了所以你說你要怎麼擴大你可不可以直接給我重點"},{"start":245.976,"end":266.515,"text":"重點我剛剛講的就是三個重點嘛我剛剛講第一個就是對象的擴大往這個邊緣戶這邊來擴大第二個呢是對提撥的部分去加成怎麼樣去增加我們在這個Mutual Fund這個對撥的時候政府的這個挹注可以再多一些你是說是我給你的建議嗎"},{"start":268.457,"end":283.931,"text":"我們現在在規劃的方向啊那第三個就是程序上怎麼讓他簡化大概是從這三個方向那你預計你往這樣子的方向去進行你預計受惠的人數會從現在的人數多多少"},{"start":285.36,"end":300.794,"text":"我們也在做最後的盤點因為這個還有預算的問題到底我們能夠爭取到需要到多少預算那麼就擴大到哪一個margin所以我們有在規劃很快會有這個結論總結而言對於藍白兩個黨我們其實就是要把小朋友的未來當作是一個投資等於是投資他們的未來"},{"start":310.402,"end":329.951,"text":"那之後我們可能會在委員會可能非常感謝昭緯今天排案但是我們之後還會繼續來深度的討論這個議題那第二個想要跟你探討我們的想法也是一樣啦就是這個孩子就是國家的未來嘛那我們應該要更多的這個挹注跟投資啦這個是需要考慮的"},{"start":331.152,"end":352.601,"text":"我的意思是說其實那天我總執行員講得很清楚了這個東西並不是我們獨創的而是其他國家比如說英國 新加坡他們已經做得很好那我們可以再把它拿進來加入台灣的元素去把它擴大畢竟我們現在一年升10萬明年不知道升不升得到9萬或8萬這個是你要面對的問題你要面對問題之一第二個也是這兩個禮拜"},{"start":358.883,"end":377.157,"text":"非常多引起討論的就是很多縣市都已經講到說營養午餐要補貼那如果順利的話可能今年開學以後也就是九月可以很多縣市是免費營養午餐但是呢這個是美國最近我希望你回去可以請你的同仁來研究一下"},{"start":377.697,"end":394.409,"text":"美國最近呢提出了一個歷史性關於營養建議的重置所以他們在這邊寫到英文說是historic reset那他的slogan就是make America healthy again那既然各縣市都已經開始要落實營養午餐免費除了讓小朋友可以吃的免費然後家長減少負擔我們也要讓他們吃的健康所以這個指引我等一下跟你講幾個重點"},{"start":405.757,"end":432.856,"text":"也希望你回去研擬一下他們發表了這個Make America Healthy Again他就特別做了一個網站他去講他以前這個可能部長你都有看過就是我的餐盤嘛以前他們這個我的餐盤是怎麼樣配置的那他們回顧了這幾十年來所有的流行病學比如說肥胖新陳代謝的疾病糖尿病等等心血管疾病那為什麼他們要做改革"},{"start":434.177,"end":448.151,"text":"以前這個參盤你應該很熟比如說穀物 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副主委委員好副主委好 我想問一下如果我們國人在國外去譬如說歐洲然後他要辦理退稅然後因為店員寫錯了國碼把我們台灣的國碼寫成了中國大陸的國碼"},{"start":36.107,"end":49.584,"text":"那這個應該不會是陸委會業務如果要宣導的話應該是政府應該哪個機關去宣導國馬就是因為他寫錯國馬早知道不能退稅啦那所以"},{"start":50.237,"end":68.888,"text":"應該要告訴我們國人說如果以後到了歐洲到其他國家去假設要申請退稅的話在對方的店員在填國法之後你要仔細看不要說因為填錯了害你之後退稅你覺得這個應該要我直覺應該可能是外交部或觀光署應該跟陸委會沒有關係"},{"start":71.59,"end":97.596,"text":"那這個應該如果國人在國外面臨到這樣的狀況政府如果多多宣導的話可以降低國人旅遊的困擾嘛我覺得這個事情也是應該要做了最近又發現一件事情就是有一個網紅叫叫鍾明軒他因為自己就遇到我剛剛講的狀況他去歐洲啦然後因為就是電源的國馬寫成中國大陸的所以他就沒辦法退稅然後他就提醒大家他就發了一個文說"},{"start":98.616,"end":118.783,"text":"各位親愛的旅遊的好朋友如果出國的話 遇到這個狀況要特別注意其實這個應該是一個好事吧結果民進黨不分區立委啊 郭育琴啊就去酸他 說沒事中國人 有事台灣人好像那個郭育琴講的中國人 講的應該是"},{"start":120.543,"end":148.636,"text":"他的中國應該指的是中華人民共和國應該不會是中華民國 對吧聽起來 語意上 對吧那就跑去酸他我是想問一下 就是我不知道因為中民宣我不知道民進黨的立委是怎麼認定中民宣是中華人民共和國的人我不知道他怎麼認定的可能是中民宣最近比較常是不是有去中國大陸他可能有去拍了一些影片在網路上面有受到爭議對 我其實就是想要問"},{"start":149.736,"end":176.852,"text":"副主委啦 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謝謝委員好好 謝謝今天我們在這裡審查反滲透法的修正草案"},{"start":36.141,"end":59.224,"text":"那我想兩岸局勢緊張是不爭的事實那中共對台灣的影響無孔不入我們也都很清楚但是我們跟對岸的差別就是我們是民主法治國家這跟對岸最大的不同所以我們的所有的法令我們應該要堅持法治請問三位認同嗎"},{"start":61.251,"end":88.857,"text":"認同嘛 對所以今天審查的這個法案我看了各部會的報告那特別是法務部提出了很多關於法律明確性還有罪行相當的疑慮我認為這不是推託這個是非常負責任的表現我們非常肯定所以我們立法院的職責就是我們要把法治工程做好 建設好"},{"start":89.617,"end":118.176,"text":"而不能修出一部定義模糊可能會被濫用甚至最後還被憲法法庭宣告違憲的法律所以我今天的質詢我要從法治國原則來出發那我們對反滲透法我們從來沒有反對而且我們也覺得有其必要但是你這部法律你不能夠這個定義模糊所以接著本席就要針對"},{"start":119.657,"end":140.065,"text":"像这个我们有提案这个再来就是我觉得这么重要的法案行政院没有版本好像也不对我们希望行政院有版本那我们就很多委员提出来的特别是针对你参选人针对你参选人你人也没有定义清楚"},{"start":140.95,"end":169.82,"text":"我请问我小学生老师说你未来要的志愿是什么我要选总统你都不定义没有时间没有人的定义我想选总统那他是总统你参选人吗还有我们很多委员的助理可能他想选议员甚至他未来觉得他想接委员的这个职务他开始做了很多确实是你参选人想要做的事情那他是不是就是你参选人"},{"start":171.027,"end":190.384,"text":"人没有定义清楚再来什么叫做渗透怎么样叫做被对岸渗透那如果他是这个有机会他去观光旅游那他是不是然后有一天他来参选他就是被渗透所以像这个部分我想请教"},{"start":193.095,"end":221.071,"text":"我們法務部是不是先來講一下對於本席所說的 你看法 你認同嗎因為你們在裡面 你們就講了嘛法律明確性跟罪行相當所以像這個擬參選人 你要怎麼定義還有滲透 你要怎麼被定義是 謝謝委員垂詢那首先我們這邊立場其實跟委員 以及提案委員一樣我們都認為國家安全的確保以及國家主權的鞏固其實是很重要的"},{"start":221.491,"end":238.442,"text":"那我們提出的法治意見裡面為什麼對女參選人這邊會有說明其實是為了讓法案更加的完善尤其是女參選人該怎麼定義法務部的意見因為我目前的可找到的法治上有三種定義可是三種定義都長得不太一樣"},{"start":239.122,"end":264.355,"text":"那也因為如果從文藝的射程上你參選人會細緻於參選人的主觀我到底想選或不想選最後有沒有一個客觀行為去框定他所以等下像我們一般會用到你參選人以我們參選的經驗就是你可能要去監察院登記有沒有你參選人帳戶不然其他也不叫你參選人嘛所以是不是他登記下去那個算他是你參選人他沒有登記前"},{"start":266.367,"end":279.448,"text":"委員講的是就是政治審判的其中一種定義因為在選八法47條之三的立法理由其實有提到另外一種定義因為這個條文有擬參選人他講的是選舉公告之日起依依政治審判規定報竟監察院"},{"start":281.946,"end":299.927,"text":"報警監察院許可設立政治限定專務之人這個是 這個是這個政治憲法的定義對啊 其實這個它也有定義所以這個當然我們在討論的時候就進入委員會討論的時候我們要用什麼定義這可以討論但是最重要就是不能沒有 沒有界限的定義"},{"start":301.22,"end":325.436,"text":"我們是贊成要訂就把它明訂好對 要明訂 對 這一塊那再來就是滲透呢 怎麼樣叫滲透有什麼明確的定義 怎麼樣叫滲透所以今天到大陸旅遊 算不算滲透吃了一餐飯 算不算滲透這一塊三位都表達一下好了委員你有特定指的是哪一條的構成要件嗎"},{"start":327.01,"end":347.99,"text":"我不好針對我們特別的委員那你們看了你們應該知道滲透沒有很明確的定義啊滲透兩個字因為我們講的明確性原則會套用在兩個地方一個是行政法的明確性原則一個是刑法的明確性原則強度是不一樣的但是滲透都沒有明確指出那你最後到底怎麼樣你可以算他是有被滲透"},{"start":349.235,"end":367.166,"text":"沒有 沒有明確 再來再來因為時間的關係對 應該要再明確嘛所以我希望另外兩個部會的次長跟副主委你們要聽 要了解本席所講的跟法務部的意見那再來還有就是參與"},{"start":369.928,"end":384.658,"text":"我们在这个反渗透法里面出现了参与两个字好今天假设我们设定有某个候选人真的有明确的证据明确的真的有被渗透的事实那你用了一个参与两个字"},{"start":385.118,"end":405.547,"text":"所以在他的競選服務處在他的辦公室幫他打掃的算不算參與打掃的志工幫他端茶水幫他做一些事情的志工幫他做文宣整理的那這些都算參與嗎所以這個太模糊了非常模糊這一塊這個部分"},{"start":409.614,"end":424.692,"text":"我想這樣好了請副主委回答一下副主委你那個參與跟滲透我想委員剛剛講的這個狀況應該不至於啦譬如說我們講參與黑道組織好了如果你是在賭場裡面幫他們做清潔打掃的工作"},{"start":425.757,"end":444.527,"text":"那在检方来讲不会把你当做黑道组织的参与者所以你这个参与没有明确定义所以参与的定义一定是你有共犯的犯意的联络如果说我只是说去某一位候选人那边去打扫那个是不可能的"},{"start":444.727,"end":473.286,"text":"所以你今天講的很清楚就是你的參與那所以我們在法條中當然我們還沒進入主條嘛所以在法條中這個都應該要定義的很清楚才可以是但是但是目前的法條沒有嘛對但是法條永遠不可能把窮盡所有的狀況對但是我們總是要定義清楚嘛包含我們這個法務部也講嘛有些明確性法律明確性跟罪行相當這一塊還是要確認好"},{"start":473.772,"end":495.238,"text":"那再來的話統戰啦來請教一下什麼叫統戰如何定義還有灰色地帶行為那這個副主委可以講一下什麼叫統戰要如何定義那今天是你這個執法單位或者是行政單位你認定是統戰就是統戰這樣很可怕"},{"start":496.058,"end":502.603,"text":"如果是這樣的話那起訴率跟定罪率就不會那麼低了沒有 所以這個"},{"start":504.853,"end":524.455,"text":"對啦起訴率不高啦底下是誰在一直講話徐委員你剛講到譬如說去大陸吃飯這個事情現在辦的主要都是我現在就是講你現在在法條裡你統戰你一定要明確定出來統戰還有什麼灰色地帶行為來你講看看什麼叫統戰什麼叫統戰"},{"start":527.167,"end":539.793,"text":"統戰就是利用各種方式去影響和拉攏台灣這邊的勢力這樣喔 來來來 那接著我們請參事貴姓謝參事剛剛我們副主委講的這個這算明確嗎"},{"start":547.25,"end":556.812,"text":"他剛剛講的那幾句話因為委員所槌尋的其實是在草案目前的第二條有一個灰色地帶行為人裡面有提到統戰活動的部分"},{"start":557.332,"end":581.196,"text":"那因為現在沒有實定法的定義啦所以這東西就變成說當然是有明確定義是最好比較好操作也比較明確但如果沒有明確定義的話可能就要從這個法規的意旨裡面再去從實務發展出來它的確定的外延範圍因為這畢竟他搭附的後面草案是有相關的刑責的規定的那在明確原則上面會稍微嚴格一點"},{"start":581.966,"end":603.465,"text":"那不過統戰行為這邊還是要一方面要參考主管機關相關的說明跟解釋對嘛 沒有定義嘛 灰色地帶呢 灰色地帶呢你也講不出來 所以這很明顯啦這部法律真的 我們覺得要再精準不好意思主席 我最後 你們請回座我最後 中選會很重要 對你也很重要來 我們請中選會好不好 來"},{"start":611.629,"end":623.718,"text":"蔡處長現在我們2026已經進入了升委進階元年你知道什麼是升委吧現在AI的升委很可怕如果今天你看我們王朝偉"},{"start":624.879,"end":645.885,"text":"他未來他在嘉義很強但是如果他的對手在選前幾天突然因為我們立法委員像王委員他在立法院質詢他那個聲音太多了你只要到內政委員會你就可以收集他的聲音然後AI就用他的聲音模仿出來"},{"start":646.625,"end":673.172,"text":"他跟大家說假設他說我承認什麼什麼什麼會影響選舉的讓大家本來要投他的最後不投他或者說身體為一樣或者是怎麼樣我退出選舉這種情況有人做了用AI做了這個假的模仿了候選人的聲音甚至講了一些對選戰具有非常非常影響力的"},{"start":674.392,"end":703.976,"text":"我请问你们有准备吗你们有在选战过程中因为因为像这些身为的东西他在网络上传播只要几秒钟在Line Facebook TikTok或YouTube甚至IG各方面那我请问你们现在在各大平台中选会你有没有建立选举期间的绿色通道你可以用最快速的你有没有一个SOP你最快速的针对这些非常不实的你们可以马上去去澄清有没有办法"},{"start":704.668,"end":731.368,"text":"報告委員依據公職人員選舉罷免法的一個規定你參選人候選人如果是在選舉公告到投票日前一日為止知道有人利用這個網際網路這些媒體來看播他的身為影音那他可以付費向警察機關來申請鑑識那如果警察機關申請鑑識的結果是具有深度偽造影音身為的"},{"start":732.888,"end":746.775,"text":"這個情形的時候他可以向這些看播這些影音的這些媒體啊來這個請求停止看播或是限制瀏覽移除下架等等那如果是意圖使候選人當選或不當選的這種情形"},{"start":749.676,"end":763.641,"text":"公職選辦法104條就有5年以下那如果是用身為影音我不是在問這個耶我想王委員聽得懂啊選前之夜啊那個一傳下去我還什麼請警還取警察機關還什麼"},{"start":764.901,"end":791.903,"text":"那整個都要翻盤了你不馬上出來有一個綠色通道澄清我告訴你隔天那個選舉就很大問題你看我們召委點頭了我要的不是你這個答案你大概沒聽懂啊但是我請你要帶回去因為今天我們這個主委副主委沒有來所以你因為我也不好占用大家太多時間這個是非常非常嚴重的問題非常非常嚴重"},{"start":793.018,"end":811.684,"text":"那我們中選會如果沒有辦法的話進入AI時代我們這個選舉真的會很亂而且這一些在網路上這種伪造身為伪造的然後這樣在這樣傳播在關鍵時候就絕對出問題趙偉你認同啦 認同"},{"start":817.15,"end":836.476,"text":"他要回答包委因為這個如果涉及擬參選人候選人的這個沒有擬參選人我告訴你擬參選人沒有那麼激烈一定是選舉選舉前三天甚至前一天就是候選人對候選人也是包括因為是不是這個散佈的這些影音是不是真實"},{"start":837.376,"end":851.781,"text":"候選人應該是最清楚的後選人如果馬上提出來的時候你們的SOP有多快我們要知道是這個還有你有沒有辦法馬上官方的澄清我剛剛一直講選舉期間你的綠色通道"},{"start":853.142,"end":872.798,"text":"對 現行的機制就是有沒有 你回答我有沒有現行選務機關是就針對選務機關的錯假訊息有一個綠色通告所以你的意思是警察的職權那如果是候選人 涉及到候選人的不實的這些謠言或是不實的 散佈謠言或是不實的事項是要由候選人向警察機關來申請見識"},{"start":877.352,"end":905.437,"text":"那他這個廣遍媒體受到這些所以不是中選會的職權那所以你的意思是我要問警察機關你有沒有綠色通道可以來公告主持這個選舉的這種狀況剛剛提到就是104條如果說有這個機制就是如果是利用身為影音來意圖使人當選或不當選來散佈謠言傳播不實之事的這個是有刑責的"},{"start":906.541,"end":911.742,"text":"至於說什麼是身為營運事由我插話一下他現在委員會來問的是發生他提議之後你們有什麼作為然後能不能遏止是水馬鑽進去找審判單位還是你們有權利來去做歐北人說的有辦法趕快去下架"},{"start":932.926,"end":944.889,"text":"現在這個問題是這樣對啊 甚至你要官方你有這個公權力你可以讓大家知道 欸 這個是像你剛才說的好選人最重要嘛這個是圍罩的 這是真正的價值嘛但是好選人知道的時候要求助他們中選會的時候中選會沒有一個機制出來欸 沒有SOP啊還有那個速度很重要"},{"start":961.232,"end":974.323,"text":"我覺得不管帶一桶都一樣要有好的人才 不可以受到這種的應用他現在 你問的時候是說如果發生這個事情你有多久的時間 可以去寫下來不管你是同步帶一個單位是要公平的選舉"},{"start":988.115,"end":1011.562,"text":"不要讓人家後輩來心肝壞的企業用AI來人家無聊來人家惡惡賊賣這樣不好現在他說的意思是這樣沒有啦 你們現在還沒有啦要加油啦 是不是我想應該是這個答案 好不好加油啦我現在也沒答案啦今天沒答案不表示說"},{"start":1012.956,"end":1014.519,"text":"下個會期你們業務報告的時候這個一定會是很重要的重點"}]}},{"id":"167073","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167073","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce00ffebcc9ddaae28e8a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e9015297e2b1819fafab4f6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:23:42 - 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梁副主委梁副主委 陸委會委員好副主委好這個根據我們的反滲透法的第二條"},{"start":24.843,"end":41.375,"text":"這個有對於這一個境外敵對勢力啊滲透來源還有這一個機關的組織等等之類的都有做定義嘛對不對那我請教一下副主委根據反滲透法的規定那國安局之前有提出一個報告利用黑道幫派地下錢莊"},{"start":43.191,"end":70.655,"text":"這個掩護公司公廟團體民間社團這個五大管道來滲入這個台灣那請問一下那這些是不是也是反滲透法要所規範的一個對象是 但是他可能是可能是第二層或第三層可能是層層下達指令就是滲透來源下面的還有境外敵對勢力所屬組織機構或其派遣之人這個算不算"},{"start":73.44,"end":84.529,"text":"我認為是算的啦但是在證明上面不太容易對 這就是問題所在我們明明知道說中共滲透的很嚴重那這個國安局的報告裡面他也說到"},{"start":85.199,"end":109.385,"text":"他透過這個國安、勤工、統戰部門透過退役軍人、現役軍人、政府機關、輕鬆組織下面的這些管道來進行滲透那我們也看到了這個相關的報告就是說反滲透法施行到現在6年那檢察機關累計起訴了127人那判決確定有罪才5個人"},{"start":110.034,"end":122.534,"text":"平均的刑度只有三個月到六個月那這等於是說滲透的情況這麼嚴重那但是為什麼我們按照這個反滲透法所起訴的人會這麼少那有罪的會更少"},{"start":126.805,"end":145.408,"text":"應該是說他的要證明就是說剛剛有講說第二條因為你必須要證明說他的這些行為是受中共指示或是派遣之人但是往往在這個環節裡面是比較困難譬如說我舉前立委羅志明的案件好了"},{"start":147.09,"end":165.506,"text":"我們看到的資料是它上面確實是由對岸某一位人士指示他做某一些事情但是因為沒有辦法證明說對岸這一位某一些人士他到底是不是在中共的黨政軍職務裡面他到底是站在哪一個位置或是具體職務但是我們這邊的檢調單位也不可能發文"},{"start":170.69,"end":186.296,"text":"過去中共那邊說請問這個人是不是你的哪一個單位的什麼職務所以就變成說你最後沒有辦法證明那個指示的來源他的身份所以往往很多案件都是因為這樣子而無法起訴所以這個我剛講說這個其實是"},{"start":190.441,"end":217.198,"text":"它不是實體法的問題就是說我們實體法定的不管怎麼樣在包含的再多的範圍也好或是怎麼樣它最後會遇到這個核心的問題就是你無法起訴這樣對好那你說不是實體法的問題但實際上法規範就遇到這些問題沒有錯沒有錯好那你剛才舉那個例子我再舉個例子好了講這個馬志威是馬志威他是這個用無黨籍身份來參選"},{"start":218.519,"end":237.591,"text":"那他一審的時候他只有用違反個資法他是到了二審的時候才用這個反滲透法然後判刑兩年多啦那所以你看嘛有這個落差他為什麼一審的時候是用違反個資法那二審的時候可以用到這個反滲透法那之間的落差在哪裡這個落差就是說他必須"},{"start":239.332,"end":266.283,"text":"二審的時候他認定說他的這個資金來源對象確實是中共所派遣之人所贊助的資金在一審的時候法院不這麼認定一審的時候只認為說馬志文你確實有收到錢但是我沒有辦法認定說你所收到錢的來源是中共或中共所派遣之人但是二審是這樣認定所以就是認定上面的問題沒有錯"},{"start":269.384,"end":273.891,"text":"對啊 那所以我們今天要修這個反滲透法是不是一樣也會遇到這些問題勒"},{"start":275.191,"end":297.628,"text":"因為我看各個委員當然都很關心國安的問題被滲透的問題我覺得各位的委員都很關心那很多意見我們也都會參考那但是最後我們還是遇到這個法院他在採取他的證據法則到底是怎麼樣就是說如果他是很嚴格的"},{"start":300.49,"end":324.39,"text":"譬如說要採取要採取跟一般刑事案件的那樣的那個證據法則顯然現在在這個國與國之間的這個關係裡面你很多事情是沒有辦法這樣處理的那我是會建議說我們的各個機關可以去參考其他國家的這個情報工作或是怎麼處理類似相關的法"},{"start":325.111,"end":343.727,"text":"那個案例那而不是說用一般的刑事刑事案件或刑事訴訟法來處理因為就會遇到說我們的這一個檢調非常努力的去查也查出了一些證據出來但是到法院那邊的時候就像副主委你提到的說他們很難去證明說"},{"start":344.386,"end":370.101,"text":"中間的這個連結性是不是如何去證明然後這個證明的確是受過這個中共他所指示的然後這個關係變得很難去連結就變成說在法院這邊的位置他通常會通過好幾層啊然後中共的情治人員他也不會說我就是某某單位的他一定可能說我是某個基金會的或是某個公司的然後公司下面還有公司還有各個"},{"start":371.522,"end":389.374,"text":"掩護性的單位所以這個就變成造成我們這邊在查查的或是說在建立連結的時候是非常非常困難的所以就是說他只要中間有一個斷連出現了就變成說我們的法院去證明說他的確有這個連結性就會變成出現問題了沒有錯那最後一個問題問你就是說在過年之後那現在這一個國民黨準備跟這個共產黨舉行這個國共論壇那陸委會這邊有沒有什麼樣的提醒"},{"start":404.647,"end":411.69,"text":"我們是提醒不管哪一個政黨都是中華民國的政黨不管哪一個政黨"},{"start":412.898,"end":431.172,"text":"都要捍衛中華民國那去跟中共不管哪一個單位談任何事情都要站在中華民國的立場然後不可以去涉及到我們兩岸條例所禁止的一些什麼政治性協議或是等等這樣子那"},{"start":434.113,"end":440.607,"text":"我覺得各個政黨 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secret那麼標示完之後他並不是整整個文件其中有一段那他就"},{"start":79.218,"end":105.211,"text":"就每一段都有這樣不同的標示之後呢那麼它在我想在儲存運用上的時候就會在不同的可以接觸人的這個特別在數位化裡面都會我們會有不同的一個網域在這個比較低層的網域的時候呢不是屬於機密的會往這個低層來送那麼如果是屬於機密的低層的網域的人就看不到這個機密的文件"},{"start":105.871,"end":132.927,"text":"那跟委員報告如果我們要進一步在在整個我們的這些所有相關的這些共同作戰圖像或者共同的情報圖像在不同等級的人要能夠看到這些相關的文件這樣的做法是有必要的好 謝謝部長其實部長剛才你回答的是我可能等一下要問的比較細部的問題那我剛才主要的問題是說我們依照什麼樣的原因"},{"start":133.847,"end":159.426,"text":"認定這個文件是機密或者不是機密那我想過去包含我們在立法院這兩年國安局也好或者是其他的這一個國安相關的單位那我遇到一個問題就是說我發現到很多明顯是公開資訊的事情但是全部都以標示為密件或者是用機密會議的方式提供給我們這些我們在這一個國際關係討論就可以看到的這一個資訊那這就是沒有清晰的把"},{"start":160.666,"end":183.439,"text":"資訊做一個很好的去歸類跟分類那在美國的部分部長我先講完我先說完然後等一下還會詢問你問題所以我看到這一次我們這個開始重視這個每一個標示就表示我們很認真的去要面對說哪些是屬於機密哪些是屬於非機密遇到機密的文件我們要怎麼樣去分段處理做數位的治理等等這未來都是有幫助的儘管一開始"},{"start":184.159,"end":210.7,"text":"會有一些磨合期但是我還是要強調我們對於機密的標示它不可以無限上綱我們必須要比方說這個美國的這個行政命令的第13526號很明確的來去做一個分析對國家安全造成可識別或者是可描述的損害是可以把它標列為機密依照這個機密我們才可以一個一個往上什麼是機密什麼是非機密什麼是最高機密"},{"start":211.36,"end":225.591,"text":"比方說我們看到這個之前我們國安局他在做一些這個簡報的時候他大概是整篇整個文件都是密但是整個文件裡面基本上可能一個段落"},{"start":226.451,"end":247.231,"text":"才是密等其他不是嘛所以為什麼我們要標示的原因也是這樣我們要很清晰的知道說未來哪一些人哪一些層級的人才可以看到哪些需要看到的資訊need to know也是這樣子的所以這是一個很好的嘗試我不會說這是不對的但是很多很細膩的東西我們要開始做首先就是大量的標示機密但其實根本不是機密"},{"start":247.831,"end":267.606,"text":"這就是把文件做非常沒有效率的處置在美國也會有類似這樣的狀況那我們為什麼要有標示機密或者是最高機密為什麼機密的等級而且還要有解密的實現呢因為在民主的國家裡面他必須要能夠回溯能夠去看說過去他這些做出來的決定這些政府官員做出來的決定是對的還是錯的"},{"start":270.007,"end":286.146,"text":"從越戰到這個韓戰越戰到後來的包含這個伊拉克戰爭第二次伊拉克戰爭大量的解密文件後來回溯才知道說當初的戰略想定是對還是錯當初得到的情報是對還是錯當初使用情報的方式是對還是錯"},{"start":287.307,"end":303.137,"text":"那後面的行政人員才可以知道說我們可以從中來得到什麼樣的教訓那以後才可以避免做出這樣子的戰略上面的錯誤所以為什麼戰略上面要公開那在細則上面很清楚的什麼樣的東西是要被列為密等的比方說軍事計畫"},{"start":305.095,"end":332.831,"text":"軍事行動、情報活動還有跟國家安全相關的技術事項甚至是為了保護在美方的話是包含核材料跟他核設施的計畫所以他是有很具體的告訴我們哪些是可以核密哪些是不用核密那我們就不會把我們所有的行政效益的時間放在這上面去但是剛才部長有提到的說一段一段的這個未來的做法各位部長再稍微簡單的跟我們國人來講"},{"start":334.013,"end":337.682,"text":"為什麼要這麼做 這樣做的理由是什麼而且為什麼我們還要持續要這麼做"},{"start":339.75,"end":364.727,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們運作下來我們就會發現到或者是討論到剛剛委員所講的如果是以這個國家經保護法的精神來講是以最小程度和密原則沒錯所以我們分段的這個和密的話呢他就會去認真的檢視這些哪一段是屬於一般公務機密或涉及國家機密或者是屬於可以公開的資訊"},{"start":365.908,"end":387.765,"text":"那這樣子的話 我想我們有這樣子的一個討論讓這個精準和密 也能夠落實這個保密保護機密的這樣的概念的話那包括跟友盟之間有一個互通性那包括在我們不同的網域之間我們有比較低的密集的網域 有比較高密集的網域"},{"start":388.525,"end":412.023,"text":"也讓我們安全調查之後可以涉密的人的這個權限因此可以在不同的這個現在數位治理的情況之下他不同的網系他可以有權限應該看到什麼會更精準的去展示他應該要看到的內容那如果像過去的這樣子的一個和密的方式是做不到這樣子分級分類的做法的"},{"start":412.702,"end":434.032,"text":"非常好那這是一個開始但是我們就避免最開始我們比方說昨天前天我們看到這些問題就是在每一個段落都用無納有些非就是一般文書或者是公開簡報那也是這樣子標示其實我們很快速的就調整了我認為還是要做要做但是一開始會有這一個需要調整的地方我們就快速的去應變就好了因為"},{"start":434.992,"end":460.517,"text":"每一個政策的他在執行的時間他最開始都會有一些磨合期甚至是有的時候可能是有錯誤的地方那我們就把它改正就好我不認為這是這不代表說我們現在做的是錯誤的這代表我們現在做的是正確的但是需要時間跟更完善的溝通所以我必須要強調我看他們之前他們做了十幾年在一開始也會有一個磨合期我們這幾天運作下來我想也會有一些磨合期所以我們接下來會來討論"},{"start":462.677,"end":482.127,"text":"沒錯 沒錯好 謝謝部長所以我剛才要提到的說我是希望因為現在要檢討之後那還有你怎麼去分類指引還有你到底要是怎麼標速你可能還是要有一個快速的諮詢窗口是那這個部分部長你們應該會有所準備吧是"},{"start":483.288,"end":503.63,"text":"就會讓所有的官軍弟兄都知道接下來怎麼處理的方式因為其實一開始還是很亂我們不是很清楚我們要努力的來再宣達然後也要聽取各界的意見包括我們在官兵在做這個的時候那麼他面對的一些困難我們要了解您剛剛提到的核定要件的部分"},{"start":504.21,"end":522.181,"text":"事實上就是一開始的時候我就有提出來那要讓官兵整個了解核定的一些要件在根據那個執行命令裡面核定要件裡面那比方說在美方的話他的最高機密的原始的分類權限是由總統副總統或者是指定"},{"start":523.261,"end":542.374,"text":"機關首長跟官員然後依此類推然後在下面就是指定官方的官員再授權給這個相關的去畫社或者是說相關的指引人員那所以說他們包含每一個來自資深官員的授權就授權說這個是機密就是他要必須要核對這個是機密還是非機密的這些人他本身也要授訓"},{"start":543.234,"end":565.95,"text":"就是他還知道說我們才不會什麼把這個非機密的事情每次為了要就是可能是要快速的要交差就先把它弄機密其實美方也有一些類似這樣的問題那所以說他們會有相關的課程要讓這些和密的人知道說我到底該怎麼標才可以符合行政效率又不會這個過度的來去區分密等那所以"},{"start":566.917,"end":583.471,"text":"在美方那是有一個資訊安全的監督辦公室也就是說你當初把這個權你把這一個文件設立為什麼機密這個官員他的相關的這個名字職位名券都會標示給該官員就是說你去劃定這些資料"},{"start":584.552,"end":601.733,"text":"這些資料是為機密的 劃定資料為機密的這些官員他是會把直寫跟他的名稱是會交給這個資訊安全監督辦公室的也就是說這是一個完整的配套模式他不是說我今天想說這看起來有點重要我就把它變成機密"},{"start":602.173,"end":623.57,"text":"它可能重要但非機密啊它可能是重要可以向人民去公開的資訊但它非機密啊所以它是一個非常複雜也是一個非常重要的一個整個系統這跟我們剛開始建立法院的時候我們說要查核背景人員從那個地方開始到我們怎麼樣去運用文件這個過程是很漫長的那很漫長不代表說"},{"start":625.492,"end":631.829,"text":"最好的方法是十年前就開始做啦那我們知道十年前沒有完整的落實那至少現在開始也是一個"},{"start":633.393,"end":661.072,"text":"也不會太晚那只是說我們現在多討論啦只是說我在最後部長稍微簡單講一下就是說美國在核機密這件事情其實在內部也有很多交鋒因為近年確實有過度把一些非機密的事情變成機密導致他們管理異常困難的狀況那無所不防就等於什麼都沒有在防我們重要的是在高風險的資訊上面的這個核定上那"},{"start":662.533,"end":678.765,"text":"我認為這個才是我們要重視的部分不然現在官民可能會擔心就是說怎麼全部都是機密這樣怎麼辦怎麼樣去處理這些問題所以我剛才提到的這一個包含這個13526號的這個行政命令可以稍微去參考"},{"start":680.205,"end":703.016,"text":"再看 因為這經過15年 美國有很多不同的變化我們還是從中取得跟我們台灣本土 我們自己國軍他們過去的行為模式 也要有一個比較本土化的做法因為直接照抄也不見得是最好的方式但是畢竟美方在機密保護上面 還是領先其他國家很多的"},{"start":704.216,"end":713.794,"text":"可以學習 但是看怎麼樣做一個調和讓我們台灣的這個國軍也能夠重新有一個更好的一個安全的制度在"},{"start":714.784,"end":731.7,"text":"所以我想我完全同意委員的意見就是說我們一方面滾動式檢討那一方面美方已經行之有年我們也會參考美方的做法那一方面我會吸收各界包括所有官兵在和密的過程當中所面臨的問題我們來公開討論的方式我們不是說公開我們會來以討論的方式來進進然後我再補充一點就是說其實"},{"start":740.828,"end":757.226,"text":"美方他儘管是有一些機密跟相關是跟相較於像蘇聯以前這個蘇聯他把幾乎什麼東西都是軍事機密等於是零透明度所以後來所有的東西相關解密之後才發覺到說他們的軍事是極端腐敗的而且是沒有辦法經過集合的"},{"start":757.566,"end":784.747,"text":"相反的因為美國有一個完整的一個國會的制衡基督還有這個新聞媒體的架構在所以他們可以從過去的從越戰韓戰各種不同時間各種不同的衝突上面他經過文件解密之後有更多人去研究過去的一些他們做出的這些戰略也好或者是戰術的執行也好從中不斷的在學習所以美方當然是美軍當然是世上最強大的武力之一不會不斷的在監督稽查然後再去學習"},{"start":785.467,"end":814.787,"text":"那我們既要有美方的這種保密的能力那也會有一個相關相對也是要有這一個能夠去監督跟去集合的方式那內部也要有內部的集合方式所以我剛才提到了這個他們的安全諮詢局他就是看說你們是不是有過度來去標示機密等等所以它是一個很平衡的一個做法那老實說我們過去這幾年來從國軍也好或者甚至是到警政系統因為有太多洩密的狀況"},{"start":815.827,"end":841.875,"text":"太多洩密的狀況導致說包含總統府的行程等等這些都被洩露出去這其實就直接明顯且立即威脅到這個國家的這個領導人的安全那當然我們才要做一些改變所以我想也是藉這個機會跟在野黨的朋友們來講說我們為什麼要這麼做不是要找麻煩而是說在找平衡那在這邊跟所有民眾們報告最後 趙友再問最後一個問題就好關於這個"},{"start":844.796,"end":869.923,"text":"中共陸軍飛彈因為剛才我們提到了彈藥量其中彈藥量裡面除了這些輕型武器之外當然就是另外一個就是防空的能力那近期提到中共的陸軍飛彈的這個陸軍飛彈的數量估計有各個不同的說法那當然那另一方面有人說儘管他們那麼多飛彈但是他們的發射器有不同的立委跟不同的這個退休的軍事人員有不同的指教"},{"start":870.663,"end":894.64,"text":"那不論如何啦我中共或許是有600個發射器他們一次大概怎麼樣等等我想要問的是說不涉及數字我想請教說現有的防空飛彈有沒有辦法阻擋第一波第二波有沒有辦法做完善的這個防護那如果我們不夠的話那要怎麼樣來去補充這個產量跟能量是不是請部長或者是院長來簡單回覆院長要不要先回答"},{"start":895.748,"end":917.833,"text":"就跟委員回報就是委員已經列出來之前媒體刊登有關本院產能的部分重點就是在海空戰力提升特別預算一直執行到現在我們把所有的飛彈產制大概50%以上但51%點幾已經委託給民間來做也就是把你的產能韌性是積蓄在民間中科院負責的只是後段"},{"start":918.593,"end":946.892,"text":"最後的部分所以有50%以上是民間累積這個產能在民間這第一個部分第二個就是說我們不能判定解放軍他的空襲會打幾波但是我們的彈藥存量就是以能夠抵禦他大部分的空襲為準當然這個是如果要長時間維持下去的話沒有人會講自己的彈藥百分之百都是夠所以我們未來努力的方向就是把防空和反艦飛彈我們會去做模組化和低成本大量製造的設計這個"},{"start":949.133,"end":977.479,"text":"能量我們會在三年之內建立這也是在惡霧戰爭之後我們學到的一個寶貴的教訓那另一方面我還是要提到大家都會把攻擊方的無人機或者是飛彈我們當然是用全力的來增強我們的防控能力但是也不用把他們的能力來無端的誇示比方說在2025年年底俄國是出動了40枚飛彈跟500多架無人機那造成的死亡人數是零"},{"start":979.362,"end":1001.811,"text":"那一次那一波是死亡人數是零 為什麼有完善的防空系統的話我們是有機會能夠擋下的500架無人機跟40枚飛彈它會造成基礎設施的傷害但是我相信我國的防空能力希望可以比烏克蘭更好那當然就是要有更多的資源放進去那在戰前 在衝突之前做最好的準備就不會有戰的問題所以備戰就不會有戰爭"},{"start":1005.892,"end":1023.652,"text":"只要他們知道說我們的能力可以讓他們就算不斷的生產還是沒有辦法造成我們的主要的損失的話他們就會三思而後卸這就是賀祖我們的賀祖必須要把資源放在刀口上面放在我們的防空能力我想他們一開始就會失敗謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167055","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167055","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce022eba5e1f74f0d8be6ea9f55fbd6b875603d53f4e90152979be7746c6163105b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:52:56 - 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.089,"end":1.21,"text":"謝謝最美麗的召委來有請我們考試院劉建新秘書長還有我們權敘部施囊結施部長行政院人事總處我們張秋元副人事長還有部長我來請教一個問題"},{"start":29.246,"end":53.512,"text":"我們公務人員請假的規則 這個第三條第一項第六款現行的規定配偶跟父母 貴姓企料 父母跟配偶死亡者傷假15天繼父母配偶的父母跟姪女死亡者給傷假10天然後曾祖父祖父母配偶的祖父母配偶的繼父母兄弟姊妹死亡者5天"},{"start":56.178,"end":80.845,"text":"這個邏輯我不知道這個邏輯是怎樣我們一直在講說我們往上從己身所從出往上從己身所出後面的人說要走 慈禧學信北清書這個假有的十五天有的十天有的五天你們那個背後的思維跟邏輯到底是什麼痛苦"},{"start":84.702,"end":92.005,"text":"對不對 應該是講痛苦啦 說啊 現在父母親死掉 一定會很痛苦可是現在小孩子死掉了 就不痛苦嘛配偶死了 多痛苦啦 我覺得這怎麼量化的問題怎麼去量化 那我都會覺得說這有點舊時代的一個思維啦你很難在現代社會裡面 家庭結構已經改變了那我們再去 你看本身的兄弟姊妹就變五天"},{"start":112.262,"end":139.173,"text":"這好奇怪然後公務人員呢父母親死掉的是商架是15天那勞工的就變8天繼父母的部分呢跟配偶的父母子女死亡者10天勞工的部分呢又變6天這個既然是在講痛苦那這個痛苦為什麼會有這個我們先不談說公務人員跟勞工"},{"start":142.671,"end":165.964,"text":"光這個公務人員體系裡面這個整個親疏之間痛苦的量化還有說可能辦喪事要很久可能有這樣的思維邏輯在這都我覺得很亂的是不是以現代社會的家庭的結構少子化你說父母親照顧小孩所以死掉要給他很多"},{"start":166.823,"end":182.236,"text":"合理啊 我認為很合理啊因為父母親嘛 養我們的嘛可是有的人是父母親當然我們要孝順他可是像我們這個鄉下的父母親哪有時間教養我們都沒有啊 都要去工作啊都是阿公養我們啊那對我來講那個阿公反而要給他20天30天"},{"start":187.261,"end":209.798,"text":"不是嗎 那現在社會家庭又改變了可能互相扶持 大家感情最好的你要講痛苦的話 搞不好兄弟姊妹那個死亡的話 應該是更痛苦啊所以你有沒有感覺啊這在剛才 婦人市長在這裡比如說 你的看法 我看你一直笑你的看法是怎麼樣 那個邏輯你不覺得這個應該做一個改變嗎"},{"start":211.811,"end":229.045,"text":"這個題會牽扯到不同的比如說商場習俗家庭觀念現在社會家庭結構的改變的確會有委員講的那樣子就是他會有很多觀念可能過去定的規則現在看起來會有一點不完全合宜或者是邏輯上不完全一致"},{"start":229.747,"end":243.647,"text":"所以我的意思就是每一個家庭結構每一個人對祖父母或對父母或對兄弟姊妹之間那一種感情那種感情大家感受會有所不一樣那這個思維就是在講痛苦那第二可能講說"},{"start":246.734,"end":255.078,"text":"這麼親密的人死掉了 可能要自傷嘛自傷每一個人又不一樣 宗教別又不一樣有人兩天 有人三天 有人一個禮拜像我在鄉下 我父母親過世 我就給他一個月我就自己拿著那個父文 去告訴 通知我爸爸媽媽他們最好的朋友 說你再生的誰誰誰已經過世了讓他們知道 也是這樣子而已啊"},{"start":269.085,"end":282.23,"text":"我拖一個月耶 我要三天全國這樣一直照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照照"},{"start":287.452,"end":307.225,"text":"然後我們用舊時代的規章去把它做量化但這個量化出來 以現在來看到底合不合理我真的是存疑啦我真的是存疑啦六天 你說現在在家裡的保溫到三天而已啦你說配偶的 配偶的父母又是十天啦 又是十天啦這看起來我就覺得這個邏輯都很亂剛有辦法來做一個研議 來做一個"},{"start":315.319,"end":344.404,"text":"好像比較跟上跟得上我也不敢說這樣就跟不上時代是不要讓他那麼混亂畢竟太久沒有去考慮這個問題啦這個我印象中這個請教規則你問我說哪一個幾天幾天說不上我也答不上我也不跟你說那個確實有不同的用天數啦是上限這個請教規則很久很久沒有修過了說真的就這個部分啦"},{"start":344.952,"end":362.248,"text":"所以你也感到樂觀其成 就是說我們來 委員會有跟我們來想想看想一下就想一下 這樣看有沒有他一定當初有當初各式各樣的考量只是都是考量現在所以我們現在就是放得糊裡糊塗啦當初的考量 但是現在不一樣啦再想想看啦 夫人 次長 你的看法"},{"start":365.263,"end":386.991,"text":"我做一個說明啦就是這個真的是因為真的規則從三幾年發布這樣一直下來那過去商價應該會像委員剛才講的可能跟我們過去的這個智商的習俗等等的都會以那個那個當事人的為核心嘛 北部就可能"},{"start":390.413,"end":410.163,"text":"會比較久月父母等等的所以會有不一樣的的確時間是過去延期下來我們會配合全部再來看看應該現在的變動這樣是不是合宜謝謝還有在我最後一分鐘以下那個法務部次長請上來一下好"},{"start":417.455,"end":437.595,"text":"市長我看這次台灣民眾黨提出的刪除勾串共犯跟證人作為羈押室友的一個修法的一個提案我想過去這個社會其實是有很大的一個爭議那今天這個案子排進來本學必須要很嚴正的去講出來以現在來看的話你刪除掉勾串共犯跟證人"},{"start":438.871,"end":455.192,"text":"我比較擔心的是會貪玩掉兩個重大犯罪一個溯源的一個能力你像譬如說我們現在很多這個如果刪掉的話我為什麼有很大的一個疑慮你詐騙的話你就抓到了人如果說不能押"},{"start":456.001,"end":476.273,"text":"然後金流繼續在跑手機也繼續在通然後上游的人在幕後的大家都笑嘻嘻我很擔心這個拆掉整個刑事司法裡面再抓一個重大犯罪的一個架構我當然知道這個提案是希望讓它更文明可是我很擔心這個文明到最後變失明"},{"start":477.594,"end":484.821,"text":"簡單你 你們到底有沒有什麼樣的一個想法跟配套或者說這樣的一個修法會不會產生怎樣的一個衝擊聽你的看法"},{"start":486.738,"end":511.652,"text":"好 謝謝委員我想原來的法律的規定就是法官審查已經非常的完備了我們執行這麼多年來也沒有問題那現在如果把這個勾竄證人共犯跟被告刪除的話如委員剛才所講的這些重大的經濟犯罪還有科技洩密還有國安案件 詐團這些案子如果主嫌犯沒有押起來相關的人沒有押起來的話"},{"start":512.774,"end":528.588,"text":"出去 馬上把他的髒證物處理掉人就跑掉了所以你們也擔心產生很大的重點非常的擔心我們非常非常的不樂見這樣的修法好啦 那我們再考慮一下啦謝謝阿杜仔忘記給考試員跟人總先請回很抱歉謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"167067","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167067","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce02c2e86df33b9435c8a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e901529766fd7484734a17d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:32:19 - 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主席我們有請法務部跟內政部請問法務部內政部市長好 參事好我想今天是反滲透法修正的這個審查那本來想要保衛國家安全是一個"},{"start":32.537,"end":53.514,"text":"都是朝野共通的目標但是每一個法律條文都牽一把動全身我們絕對不能侵害到我們人民的基本權利那更不能成為特定政黨操作意識形態用來追查老百姓的這個武器我想看這次的反滲透法的修正有一個非常奇怪的地方就是沒有行政院的版本"},{"start":53.974,"end":70.656,"text":"那本期仔細看了各部會針對民進黨立委版本的修正意見其實就可以了解到說為什麼行政院沒有提出版本因為各部會都明顯知道說許多法條的修正條件跟現行的法規都有互相抵觸或重疊的疑慮尤其是我們法務部"},{"start":71.356,"end":98.829,"text":"都不斷的表達這個見情在左那代表對於修法存在許多不同的意見那所以如果我說萬一倉促的修法恐怕對國會很基本的權益造成非常大的傷害因此本席也認為如此知識體大的修法如果執政黨執意要修行政院應該負起責任盡快提出我們的院版那立法院才可以跟我們院版一起來並案來審查我想這是一個執政黨如果要修法應該有的基本態度也是對我們國會的一個尊重"},{"start":99.673,"end":126.09,"text":"那就在上個禮拜 王美惠召委安排國安法的審查的時候我們當時行政院還有民進黨立委的修法版本中打算增訂這個國安法第四條之一只要政府認定網路上的內容是假消息錯誤就可以要求網路平台的業者刪文刪掉他的帳號 甚至把民眾各自交出來這個完全就是侵害到民眾的網路言論自由"},{"start":126.77,"end":140.1,"text":"我想不只是國安法行政院之前提出這個社會秩序維護法的修正草案同樣也有嚴重侵害到人民自由的疑慮我想只要政府認定有仇恨性的言論就可以刪文跟刪帳號那簡單的來說這兩個修法的結果就是"},{"start":145.834,"end":171.368,"text":"只要政府覺得有問題甚至看得不開心就可以處罰民眾完全沒有一個明確的標準這是行政濫權那這是為什麼本席要呼籲這次反這個反滲透法的修法應該玩這個院版的這個草案因為民進黨最近提出的這個修法都存在許多重大的爭議甚至被各界質疑是要推動網路戒嚴或是要跟這個人民的這個自由權益相關的法律這要小心謹慎"},{"start":173.169,"end":188.628,"text":"那這個也是為什麼上週我們會招委排這個玩法的修法的時候因為各界的聲音非常多所以爭議也相大我們大家達成共識就是由國民黨跟民進黨各辦一場公聽會凝聚各方的共識再來進行逐條的審議那"},{"start":190.609,"end":208.255,"text":"我想大家都要很清楚記得說反正都把政府法律當時在立法的時候就引起社會非常大的這個爭議因為這個有前置這個言論自由跟限縮兩岸交流的嚴重疑慮那當時因為民進黨是大多數那多數可以強行的闖關那先前也有委員提出一份法務部統計的這個數據嘛2024年大選期間"},{"start":212.096,"end":227.595,"text":"我們違反這個反滲透法還有選罷法高達多少人416人那結果偵辦結果是有八成不起訴跟無罪那這代表這個法律耗了相當大的這個偵查的資源那結果大多數都是沒有結果"},{"start":228.393,"end":252.269,"text":"那這恐怕會造成這個國人的這個寒蟬效應那因此這邊本席要在最後的強調法律是要確保國家安全跟社安定那維護中華民國的主權及自由民主的憲政秩序我們絕對不能淪為這個政黨用來鬥爭還有追殺異己的武器反勝鬥法的修法絕對不能因為意識形態而衝擊到人民的基本權益"},{"start":253.49,"end":261.922,"text":"那如果執行長要這麼想要推動這個法律的修法的話那請行政院盡快推出版本我想這才是負責任的態度以上 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咱家李博弈委員質詢謝謝 我有請入委會梁副主委家梁副主委"},{"start":17.213,"end":37.811,"text":"市委好謝謝副主委我們上個禮拜一在這邊審國安法同步我們在審國安法的同步我有問你那你有掌握到相關的訊息非常及時的就是我們在審國安法那國台辦就片面宣布制裁劉世邦部長跟鄭英耀部長但是少了少講了一個檢察官"},{"start":39.281,"end":50.639,"text":"那中國在處理包含片面的宣布直接說這是台獨頑固分子之外就會入罪於他們的反分裂法"},{"start":51.636,"end":74.961,"text":"那再來指名我們的辦國安的檢察官這個也要直接入罪他們的懲毒還是可能也是反分裂跟懲毒嘛那再者今天我們在審的這個反滲透法其實台灣的民主就是我們是靠選舉"},{"start":76.704,"end":103.405,"text":"那各政黨有推出候選人的政黨包含執政黨或者是大小在野黨也好或者是有其他理念的政黨也好有一個政黨在境外最關心我們的選舉的其實無非就是共產黨那共產黨的借選他其實根本就已經不是自己跳出來候選人"},{"start":105.103,"end":130.856,"text":"沒有辦法自己跳出來當候選人而已他透過各種的方式來想要意圖影響台灣的選舉所以我們今天 包含我提出來的第四條 第五條 第六條 第十一條等等的我們都希望降低我們隔壁的惡鄰居想要介入我們選舉的各種可能性"},{"start":131.772,"end":158.711,"text":"那我覺得一個法條我想要放一個例子進來在馬英九時期的陸委會副主委張顯耀副主委當時在2015年的時候是被當時的政府以外患罪去辦他對不對那當然沒有辦成嘛因為他很多市政剛剛有講過那可能都在境外"},{"start":159.673,"end":184.87,"text":"但是他在2025年的時候被起訴用反滲透法這個法律重不重要 重要這部反滲透法他在2025年的時候把前陸委會主委但是也是現任中國國民黨智庫執行長張顯耀起訴了起訴的內容有什麼第一個他寫報告去給國台辦說他會勸郭台銘簽和平協議"},{"start":190.436,"end":212.495,"text":"第二個他有錄音檔為證第三個他發布了很多的假民調都是郭台銘會領先侯友宜而且他明明知道侯友宜已經被中國國民黨提名了那他還意圖用這個假民調來換掉侯友宜嘛那他背後是誰反滲透法是不是就要處理這件事情是"},{"start":214.105,"end":241.13,"text":"如果沒有反滲透法的話這個怎麼處理當作一個政黨在借選嗎當作一個共產黨公然的在幫郭台銘服選嗎如果沒有反滲透法的話張顯耀先生應該不會被偵辦因為他的行為就變成是說他跟國泰辦在討論哪一個人適合來選台灣的總統而已就這樣所以反滲透法的必要就是說我們對於這類企圖"},{"start":243.59,"end":271.616,"text":"跟中共有關係的人來介入台灣選舉的時候我們至少有可以追溯的一個法律但是至於最後能不能具體的定罪能不能具體的定罪那個還是要看法院法院的怎麼怎麼判決因為我覺得這個案子這個案子我覺得有一些有一些行為是已經很清楚行為在起訴書可以看得到行為是很清楚的可以看到這一個人他到底在做什麼到底"},{"start":272.276,"end":295.643,"text":"民眾在電視上看到誰要配誰誰要配誰的時候哇原來是背後有北京有國台辦在這邊下這些指示欸是你沒有這些偵辦你也看不到國台辦這些指示欸你以為只是臆測欸是沒錯最後齁還有一點齁其實我們在第四條裡面提出來的這個"},{"start":296.799,"end":304.928,"text":"增加的 修正的這些條文裡面把這個 擬參選人放進來 然後另外把政黨初選 政黨提名放進來"},{"start":306.705,"end":326.325,"text":"很遺憾還沒看到國民黨的委員可以提案因為依照如果依照國民黨黨主席在選舉的時候郝龍斌跟趙少康的指控中國借選他們應該要提出來啊所以他們應該提出來他們就是被共產黨影響到的啊副主委你又沒有什麼看法"},{"start":327.784,"end":347.141,"text":"關於政黨的選舉或黨主席的選舉要不要規範我們黨內是有黨內初選但是我們提的我們是沒有幫中國國民黨提說他們的黨主席選舉應該要防止中共借選應該要把它放進來才對不過以前的選罷法也沒有規範各個政黨的黨內初選後來是有擴張到規範各個政黨的黨內初選"},{"start":353.286,"end":380.774,"text":"所以也許 也許反滲透法好不好你講的這個不對 這個跟我們今天要講反滲透法的精神不一樣在哪裡你剛講的刑法如果 選罷法 有傷害選罷法 沒有沒有沒有 我另外講我舉例刑法 你說選罷法嘛那我另外舉例 刑法如果傷人 他當然會受到刑法的制裁嘛但是他如果因為他的言論被北京指示 他被打了"},{"start":381.786,"end":404.338,"text":"我們主張這一個行為應該要加重刑責為什麼因為他被傷害不只是他的身體他還傷害到台灣的民主跟法治喔所以我覺得今天的反滲透法為什麼要把這些釐清重點就是在於他不只有傷害不只有恐嚇那甚至他有可以叫說黑幫等等的這些行為"},{"start":405.259,"end":421.434,"text":"這些一定要必須要受到反滲透法的這些約束但經過調查我們最好可以掌握具體的證據那我們才可以非常明確的告訴國人我們正處於什麼樣的環境我們要注意哪些事情"},{"start":422.099,"end":446.871,"text":"是委員有提案而且事實上我們現在有看到一些案子他被指示來台灣所做的事情不是什麼影響選舉或什麼他可能就是針對某一個人的言論然後他指示某一個黑幫的成員去恐嚇甚至傷人或是跟蹤他或者是潑妻或是打人類似這樣"},{"start":447.728,"end":463.864,"text":"那這個東西到目前我們反滲透法還沒有具體規定我有看到委員還有其他委員有提案那我覺得這個都是值得討論的對 我們主張這不只傷害個人人身它還傷到台灣的民主法制我們必須要入法 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大家的選舉也這樣 總統選舉也這樣 立委選舉也這樣 官司長選舉也是這樣"},{"start":77.466,"end":80.148,"text":"這都是越來越糟糕了沒有今天一個反滲透法 有人說這又修改沒幾年 又一百公九年 修了到現在也比較六年了還要修什麼 因為施工配件沒工 攝氈也沒工啊"},{"start":99.305,"end":109.397,"text":"將來對中華民國的台灣的打壓尤其選舉的時候那種概念是非常嚴重為什麼今天我會講到這氣氛"},{"start":114.929,"end":124.094,"text":"因為這個選舉 如果有阿強這個陸執來處理的位好的人才 全北省的學位都沒有辦法出頭去啦主要你可以聽阿強的位 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你他們就回去啦"},{"start":287.503,"end":291.044,"text":"我們是要如何做好滲透法我還不知道選舉10天前要做什麼你說的是現在的進行式我們是想說未來的選舉有機會今年11月要選舉是要如何去處理候選人及候選人在這個過程當中"},{"start":314.249,"end":320.674,"text":"我問一下,你可不可以幫一下馬智偉小姐馬智偉小姐,她在2023年發生她如果去生我們2024年,如果她跌的時間多久呢?如果她跌一次,我們跟她,因為我們有掌握她拿到阿公的錢"},{"start":344.824,"end":348.145,"text":"在這個過程中,我就是要說,你們要怎麼去認定?我還不知道選舉10天前不能做什麼,選舉要做什麼?這也就是說,三位你們也知道,現在是要怎麼樣?你們去議訪,要去記念那11個禮拜"},{"start":364.345,"end":371.253,"text":"要怎麼處理還要緊啊你認為 大家也一樣 剛好選人的時候 選舉之後 甘愛乖乖 甘愛不選舉的時候來聽阿強的 聽阿強的字給我們 這是嚴重啦"},{"start":383.922,"end":406.614,"text":"包委員這個可能跟這個有意參選的這個候選人他可能有一些是涉及反滲透法的刑事責任的規定那這個剛剛就是法務部可能檢察官的一個權責那有些可能是賄選或是等等那有一些如果是涉及行政違規的部分那這是選務機關的一個權責"},{"start":408.126,"end":414.268,"text":"所以在這裡我知道因為我們每一行有每一行他們的責任在哪裡這次你們的選委員會的時候也要去注意這個不是你如果我本身回答說港澳電機要十天你的未來你自己也要做得好對不對大家一分錢收出來是每一單位都可以啦這些的問題犯罪的問題來講解啦"},{"start":438.24,"end":447.383,"text":"不然大家在這裡開這要做什麼反滲透法對中華民國的台灣是非常重要的不是要捨棄什麼人的自由啦在剛才我跟你們說的在台灣這件事我們大家都看得一清二楚這是要害台灣的在這裡面我們要跟我們"},{"start":466.185,"end":481.233,"text":"內政有次長說到說我們有款滲透法破壞社會秩序的範圍當中啦有的是海課啦 有的是什麼啦來 我們司法部來 司法部主席拜託給我一點時間 抱歉"},{"start":491.92,"end":520.613,"text":"來 蘇阿布 本席要跟你說因為大家的時間都有一點本席要說像現在的選舉如果在網路在那裡說的有的沒的大家的風態跟很多人中的跟之前的政府都不一樣跟人也沒有對比這要怎麼處理蘇阿布"},{"start":521.269,"end":534.722,"text":"是副處長嗎來請副處長回應主席說明這個如果是在相關言論我們在個別的法規都有相關法規處理那抒發部會在技術的部分協助各個部會處理這樣的問題來 本席的來賓"},{"start":539.741,"end":552.646,"text":"他今年會在外面選舉那有人在網路說跟這個就等久以來就都在報廣場還要選什麼議員 要選什麼管理長還在網路這樣跑的時候你要如何去做來來 蘇阿布要怎麼去擋路來 要怎麼去處理 要怎麼去訂車來"},{"start":567.868,"end":580.784,"text":"報告員這個部分我們可能會跟相關選舉事務負責的單位共同來研究他來研究要研究多久人研究以後一個好的人才跟剛才研究以後跟一個好的人才就算了跟這個就算了"},{"start":586.187,"end":592.951,"text":"所以我們要時間,不是說你還有事情要簽上簽上,跟人家一過禮拜過,那個人家就算了啦但你給他的時候,是要你一過禮拜的時候,那都不好啦"},{"start":606.287,"end":618.436,"text":"報告委員 這個網路的部分我們一直都有在跟各個部會進行那這部分面臨接下來沒有啦 之前還沒有實際去做沒有時間 觀念去查好了啦到目前現在 從安委開始算的 還在他就這樣廢課 亂來亂去啦所以這個 我很愛處理"},{"start":635.499,"end":642.362,"text":"要願意你回去研究的時間拜託一禮拜的時間給我再來我問我們內政部部長在這裡面如果對我們中華民國有損害他的組織政黨在長久以來都是替中華的公衛和大夥中華民國的台灣"},{"start":664.72,"end":677.758,"text":"政府有提出再一檔嗎我想謝謝委員的指教我想那個有關目前政黨裡面大概有一個統促黨"},{"start":678.983,"end":695.296,"text":"到現在目前為止你怎麼處理跟委員報告 董事長因為我們的審議委員會過了之後就是要送憲法法庭啦跟憲法法庭現在要怎麼處理憲法法庭目前委員的人數也不太夠對啊 重點就是這樣啊要處理跟憲法法庭 跟這個國家 這個委員會是要做什麼"},{"start":705.235,"end":722.321,"text":"該做的 該派人的要處理就處理你什麼力量都沒關係 為了中華民國 如果不準 一定不會這樣嘛所以我們要去克服 可是你剛才跟我說的明明知道他有罪 明明知道他要解散了 但是我們沒有辦法解散"},{"start":728.783,"end":735.808,"text":"因為社會法庭都要動筆啊是不是這樣來是啦齁 跟你們怎麼做跟委員報告齁 我想當然那個只要是違反政黨法相當規定"},{"start":742.076,"end":751.562,"text":"那照程序我們會先召開審議會我知道啦 召開審議會後就是送憲法法庭啦憲法法庭要授禮跟審議現在就是我們要點啊點 我們要等 問啊問就是沒辦法繼續給他們亂 是不是這樣不然你還有什麼辦法可以處理的"},{"start":768.462,"end":771.885,"text":"報告委員 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參事好 剛剛其實很多委員都有提到說反滲透法上路到現在六年確實面臨到高起訴低定罪這樣的狀況那我在這邊想要請教的是就是這麼多高比例是無罪的那你認為現在是不是法律上要如何跟上這個實務上的這個落差首先先跟委員報告應該是我們的起訴率也算低啦我們是低起訴率"},{"start":46.024,"end":69.297,"text":"那因為案子進來我們還會篩選 只是三年之後送到法院這邊來審理的案件那確實有一些是無罪案件 我們也會檢討啦那 不過蜥蜴它的內容大概會有幾個原因第一 有一個原因是因為證據蒐集不易的問題因為這些反滲透法的案子 一個是牽涉到你跟對岸所謂的敵對 境外敵對勢力之間是不是有所謂的資助或是委託這些關係"},{"start":70.177,"end":87.328,"text":"那這個證據有時候存在於海外或是不是那麼曖昧是曖昧不明的不是那麼的清晰在證據證明上有個斷點另外就是這種起訴的反送中法案件很多都是綁公職人員選舉罷免法的會選行為那會選行為本身的證明的門檻就很高對於投票行為投票意向"},{"start":87.948,"end":108.815,"text":"跟這個所收受的代價之間的對價關係事實上本來就是實務上比較難證明也比較容易被拆解的一個點這是一種方向就是出於證據跟法律構成要件本來就不容易證明第二個是確實有部分我們發現確實是因為在南部我們有看到案例是因為法規它明定的必須是在參選之後的參選人"},{"start":110.976,"end":121.295,"text":"那你參選人的部分確實有部分是判決是以此為理由認為說因為當時的階段只有你參選人而不是參選人所以因此"},{"start":122.063,"end":140.801,"text":"構成壓界不該當而判決無罪的狀況大概初分大概有這樣的原因存在好 謝謝參事的說明所以其實在我的提案裡面特別把擬參選人也放進去那剛剛其實我有委員也有提到說認為擬參選人的定義不明那我在這邊請教一下參事請問在政治獻金法裡面是不是針對擬參選人有一個定義"},{"start":144.276,"end":167.982,"text":"這邊跟委員報告 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但是它就會變成沒有問題"},{"start":375.868,"end":402.497,"text":"那所以為什麼我有看到陳冠廷委員他有提出那個國安法國安專庭的這個概念也就是說我們是不是有可能就是法院的部分他特別是他特別針對國安案件他的刑事訴訟的規定或是證據採納的這個方式和一般的刑事案件是不是應該要有一所不同或者是說他有一個特殊的進行方式"},{"start":404.718,"end":428.229,"text":"到目前我們國家對於國安案件其實是按照一般的刑事訴訟法在處理的所以往往調查局的或是國安局的他們花了很大的力氣到最後到法院就變成是無疾而終所以委員剛剛所講的這些案例我們都很清楚"},{"start":429.429,"end":454.859,"text":"那這些案例呢我認為是最後要回到法院那這個我們在反申訴法或是國安法裡面不管我們怎麼實體法裡面我們不管怎麼規定你最後都是要都是變成是法官在判決的時候他會他們按照他們自己的認定方式去處理所以我覺得可能陳冠廷委員的那個提案我們可以仔細考慮"},{"start":455.819,"end":475.552,"text":"好謝謝副主委說明我也認為說目前的司法見解跟實務上的落差非常大那為了避免跟現實脫節我也認為接下來這些構成要件必須要精進第一個也不會造成民眾說不小心誤觸法網第二個也讓我們可以更明確的在法律上可以去定罪那最後我要建議一下我還是認為"},{"start":476.412,"end":504.945,"text":"目前最好的方式是揭露包括揭露這些金流包括接受這些代理人的行為模式包括接受這些代理人的身份所以揭露是第一步所以我還是希望接下來有機會的話我們陸委會可以跟各部會大家來討論一下是不是應該進行代理人法相關的討論或者是說這些身份上的揭露金流上的揭露是不是應該進一步的規範"},{"start":505.905,"end":531.521,"text":"是 謝謝委員的這個指教那這關於反社同法因為這部法律它的主管單位是行政院是行政院所以我們各個部會其實到目前為止並沒有一個提出質疑的那如果相信經過立法院的討論之後我們帶回去我們也許會提出一些這個自己的方案出來好 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我們請內政部吳次長跟法務部謝參使法務部參事跟內政部吳次長"},{"start":23.707,"end":46.113,"text":"市長其實從反滲透法立法以來在適用對象跟構成要件的明確性上本來就有很多討論的空間那這次委員提出的修法方向無論是涉及你參選人的定義跟範圍還有試圖將錯假訊息與證券交易相關法規的連結或是針對政黨解散的程序的一個設計行政部門"},{"start":47.173,"end":59.828,"text":"都提出了可能會違反刑罰明確性跟罪行相當性或與現行法規跌床駕屋的疑慮所以本席今天針對部會報告中所點出的具體的法理爭議"},{"start":61.311,"end":83.749,"text":"請兩位能夠秉持專業向國人清楚的說明這些說法的方向是否適當首先請教有關委員提案建議將你參選人納入反滲透法第四條的適用對象但是我注意到法務部在書面的報告中已經明確的指出參選與否在正式登記前屬於浮動的一個狀態"},{"start":85.37,"end":104.211,"text":"目前對於女參選人的表態意願並不存在任何可供客觀判斷的法律標準而內政部也坦言反滲透法中的現行條文對於女參選人並無明確的規定所以刑法與準刑法規範一向強調罪行法定原則與法律明確性的原則"},{"start":104.972,"end":122.414,"text":"所以若法律連你參選人自何時起算認定標準為何都無法的清楚的界定那請問一般的人民如何預見自己的行為是否違法而行政跟司法機關又將依據什麼樣的標準執法與裁量呢請回答"},{"start":123.066,"end":148.704,"text":"好謝謝委員我想在這次的一個修正的內容部分對於你參選人的部分他是並沒有很明確不過當然參考包括政治先進法其實裡面都有一些可以做公參考那我是覺得這個可以讓各個委員來做個討論如果把它定義的明確當然是可以用對就是我剛講的其實就可能很多法規是疊窗家屋既然在政治先進法那邊已經有確認了為什麼在這個"},{"start":151.165,"end":176.572,"text":"反滲透法又再加入進去那請問一下謝參事您的意見謝謝委員崔詢基本上因為這部的草案裡面新增的所謂的女參選人的部分他其實比較大的會引致的疑慮是他沒有做女參選人的定義那女參選人這四個字其實在我國我所找到至少有三個地方有一個是剛剛吳上提到的政治獻金法"},{"start":177.052,"end":204.633,"text":"不過政治立法它的擬參選的定義是專門for這個就是為了政治獻金的收受而規定的所以未必能夠完全套用但在這邊並沒有針對這樣子的另外還有兩個地方一個是在公職人員選舉罷免法裡面其實自己也有這樣的字眼然後他在立法理由裡面有做擬參選人有做立法的說明放在理由欄裡面最後一個是在廣電法的實行細則我想其實很多地方都有定義我現在要表達就是說其實"},{"start":205.552,"end":233.654,"text":"人民對於這樣子沒有確定性的定義來說的話他事實上可能不曉得自己什麼時候可能誤觸法律誤觸反滲透法所以在沒有明確的規定之前其實也很容易製造寒蟬效應那另外呢我們也可以看到就是說在我們的這個有關這個委員提案增訂第八條的規定政黨若與境外敵對勢力合作為滲透行為主管機關應申請憲法法庭解散"},{"start":234.127,"end":236.156,"text":"但是內政部的報告已經都講了"},{"start":236.693,"end":261.245,"text":"政黨法第26條早已經就規定了所以呢主管機關本來就可以檢據事證申請解散在政黨法就有了那謝三世現行的法規都已經完備了那為什麼還要增訂一條重複的規定而且法務部也點出一個關鍵現在的現行法是主管機關得申請而提案版本卻改成應申請這是否會剝奪行政機關依法裁量的這個空間"},{"start":264.286,"end":284.329,"text":"那這樣跌床架屋的修法在法制上有必要嗎是 謝謝主席的垂詢我先補充剛剛的有關你參選人的定義雖然沒有但是是可以在大院審查的時候事實上是可以在裡面增訂明確的定義就有可能會符合明確性原則我先補充說明另外就剛剛委員垂詢的有關草案第八條"},{"start":285.323,"end":299.339,"text":"徵定有關申請憲法法庭宣告政黨解散的判決的部分因為在我國的憲法徵修條文以及我們的政黨法乃至於我們的憲法訴訟法其實都有就政黨宣告解散的相關的程序跟要件做規定"},{"start":300.389,"end":322.486,"text":"對 所以這樣子是不是有一個跌床加物的修法你這個辦法就已經規範了應該是說這些東西已經有明確的規範然後這次的定義當然我在猜想委員或許是提案委員或許是認為這件事情很重要有必要再與重申不過對於重申規定我們都還是會見情說其實包括這一次的修法我看很多委員還有提案所謂的灰色地帶行為人"},{"start":323.246,"end":349.523,"text":"還有有關這個相關的各種法律事實上我們看到不管是內政部或者是法務部對於很多的提案都有諸多保留的意見所以我認為行政院其實應該要負起責任就是提出院版如果行政院認為有需要的話這樣才不會讓法治混亂因為像剛剛提到有針對很多不同的法會有相關的抵觸那鑑於這樣的部分的話我們覺得在這個行政院提出院版之後呢也應該要召開公聽會然後廣邀"},{"start":351.944,"end":365.674,"text":"我們的學者專家大家一起共同來討論匯集更多的意見以求周延那另外根據法務部的統計在114年到114年涉嫌違反還有反滲透法的共有583件從111年的"},{"start":369.737,"end":389.495,"text":"分別起訴四人、十八人、九十七人跟八人目前判決有罪確定的有五人無罪的有七人其中一百一十二年平均的判決刑度是三個月一百一十四年平均判決是六個月所以換言之 超過八成以上的漢奸最終都沒有被起訴 定罪率更不到"},{"start":390.035,"end":409.482,"text":"低到不到1%那在這樣的低起訴率跟這個定罪率之下請法務部說明這500多位在選舉前夕被約談被搜索甚至被媒體公開貼上共諜滲透著標籤的這些基層的這些民眾他的程序正義跟名譽授權的問題請問要怎麼樣子來"},{"start":412.382,"end":440.818,"text":"他們要怎麼來彌補是 謝謝委員垂詢不過我這邊先跟委員報告就是說檢押機關其實沒有拒絕收案的權利在選舉期間其實各個司法警察機關所提報乃至於民眾所檢舉所告發的案子我們這邊必須要依法偵辦但所謂的偵辦並不當然說每一件都會搜索每一件都會約談其實是看個案的證據狀況以及它必要性到哪邊去其實在這樣子的最後的結果剛剛我提到這樣其實已經明確地顯示出"},{"start":441.209,"end":457.707,"text":"就是你們查的很多500多件陳安的少定罪的更少所以這是不是已經造成就是爛數還有這個變相的寒蟬效應的這個結果而且會讓人民心生畏懼剛剛一直有人提到說會有共諜會有匪諜可是事實上現在我們看到的"},{"start":458.027,"end":480.738,"text":"共諜匪諜都在執政黨的不管是總統府不管是國安局不管是這個外交部因為執政才有機密可能洩露嘛那你在這個在野黨哪有辦法去洩露機密哪有辦法去做這樣的事情所以針對這個部分我覺得針對反滲透法還要充分的討論因為不要製造人民的這個寒蟬效應"},{"start":481.755,"end":505.957,"text":"我只是去大陸旅遊可是我現在要非常擔心我回來會不會違反反滲透法這是一般人民的心聲我們也接到很多上的投訴因為我們也沒辦法去告訴他們對你這樣去不會違反反滲透法因為確實很多不明確而且沒有辦法明確界定的一個刑責所以在這邊也要請我不管是內政部或法務部在這個部分我們在針對這樣的修法應該更為嚴謹謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167062","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167062","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce04236bae2ce1a68878a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e9015297f1150b2f0eab0c655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:44:39 - 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其實我們的反滲透法它當初是根據 譬如說澳洲還有防境外勢力影響法那他們是用影響 influence"},{"start":89.198,"end":116.592,"text":"那所謂的influence它其實就不是一個譬如說我去放個炸彈或是什麼這樣子那那個是所謂在你的思想在輿論在資訊等等各方面的所謂的影響所以我們的反滲透法它並不是一個它跟一般的軍刑法還不太一樣它所界定的罪行又比較侷限這樣子"},{"start":117.732,"end":128.797,"text":"對啦 我覺得啦齁我們常說啦齁 這個工程界啊最難做的就是抓肉啦 抓肉啦那個 吳次長 你說是不是啊"},{"start":131.299,"end":147.627,"text":"謝謝委員指教 工程的品質很重要你就回答我抓肉是不是大家都很會啊對嘛滲透跟抓肉我就一樣啊慢慢一點一滴一點一滴的來啊你要去找到證據你要去找到什麼其實都是很困難的嘛但"},{"start":148.342,"end":167.563,"text":"我們現在已經看到了我們的敵對勢力透過不同各種管道來對台灣進行這種一點一滴一點一滴的滲透然後它降低了人民對政府的不信任然後也製造了一些恐懼"},{"start":168.764,"end":182.959,"text":"像他這個列台獨啊這個份子啊列到連司法界都列入了這也就是要造成台灣人民的恐懼而且剛剛大家也有在講其實啊"},{"start":185.796,"end":212.833,"text":"這個對台灣的選舉民主制度這個介入選舉其實是非常非常的嚴重你看他不用在選舉期間他無時無刻都可以去抹黑一個人用假訊息用什麼的那你說這個能不處理嗎如果你不處理長久以來對政府的不信任感對這一個人的不信任感就會存在的 對不對"},{"start":216.75,"end":239.142,"text":"那所以啊 今天啊大家在討論這個反色頭髮的部分 條文修正我認為啦 樣態很多啦那你要特別舉出一兩樣啊這個好像不大對喔 其實也是舉得出來的但 我們不能夠因為這樣 然後你不去處理我不知道兩位的看法"},{"start":244.276,"end":268.514,"text":"我覺得委員講的是非常關鍵的其實我們小時候受的教育就是要那個匪諜無孔不入其實現在是一樣的而且因為隨著網際網路隨著兩岸的交流的擴大人員來往的擴大其實所謂的匪諜無孔不入比我們小時候要嚴重更多"},{"start":269.375,"end":294.423,"text":"那所以這部法律它的目的就是要去怎麼樣去阻止這樣的這些影響去抓漏但是問題是在抓漏就是說因為很多的行為它必須要去能夠抓得到說這個行為跟對方的授意是有關係的所以現在的這個不管調查單位還是這個檢查或是法院"},{"start":295.143,"end":309.725,"text":"在這個部分他遇到都是遇到很這些困難取證上的困難但是不能夠說因為有困難所以就不做這是不行的是我只單純我請教兩位"},{"start":310.826,"end":326.579,"text":"有人在說比如說現在有一些宮廟會去中國進香那你如果單純進香你自己出錢你單純進香去到那邊有人去跟你講一些什麼話什麼你回來你沒有做這些事情你會不會有這些問題"},{"start":328.737,"end":356.917,"text":"如果你是單純跟著人家在找你去賺一個賺一個說不用錢去賺錢我的前提是出錢的喔 自己出錢的喔自己出錢的絕對不會有事不會有事嗎自己出錢的絕對不會有事不會有事嗎那我們現在比較特定的就是說人家在找人家說不用錢不用錢把你交抬譬如說10天8天但是不用錢或者是說你只要出機票錢但是到當地時數"},{"start":358.118,"end":380.678,"text":"全免 那這種就一定是有人在出因為天下沒有白吃的午餐 一定有人出錢啊這個出錢的人是誰而已啊對嘛 我的意思就是說啊就要很清楚的讓民眾知道 就不會有大家的疑慮嘛你如果是自己出錢的 不會有問題嘛你明知是備受招待的 去到那邊人家"},{"start":382.579,"end":394.403,"text":"在招待的場所裡面跟你講怎麼樣什麼台灣不好什麼你回來又替他宣傳這當然有可能你就會誤觸法令嘛這個吳次長是不是啊謝謝委員指教我想這個剛好宗教是歸內政部"},{"start":399.352,"end":414.325,"text":"我們對於台灣的一些宗教團體其實暴露的話我們都會提醒他啦就說人家要走進去要拿你出去結果他的目的是什麼還是自己要小心啊那我們也希望宗教應該是自由但不是漫無目就是說"},{"start":415.915,"end":439.256,"text":"中了人家的招啦 應該這樣講那我再請教內政部剛剛也有委員說如果這樣子接受是不是選前就不要去哪裡 我想請問一下不管是在 如果在選舉期間你接受任何的這種招待除了違反反滲透法之外你還沒有違反選罷法"},{"start":441.541,"end":460.956,"text":"我想公職人員選罷法規定選舉期間的時間其實應該要避免借選然後也避免受到對岸的一個干擾不是 只要是你選舉期間不管在國內旅遊或是出國旅遊只要你付了很少的錢"},{"start":462.477,"end":486.023,"text":"有對價關係是不是就違反選罷法都有對嘛而且應該不只選舉期間吧只要他有預備犯他只要做這些應該都要受到檢查只要影響到選舉結果的行為都要對嘛所以這是不是兩件事情兩件有關聯的事情你本來就違反選罷法了"},{"start":487.862,"end":516.852,"text":"對不對所以跟這個反滲透法你去那個去中國地方或什麼我覺得是兩件事情吧兩件獨立的事情但是又是有關聯兩件獨立有關聯那你就一次觸犯兩個法啦對不對是啊是嘛所以我覺得啦有很多樣態大家都可以討論的啦那我覺得大家好好來討論啦這個應該要把台灣的安全漏洞給補齊我認為才是重要的"},{"start":517.433,"end":517.453,"text":"好 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我先報告今天修的是反滲透法也是有關於國安相關的法令之一那根據最新的司法進度我想人民非常關心國家安全那之前社會矚目的總統府跟外交部的共諜案一審已經判決出來了那大概都是被判8年以上的重罪"},{"start":47.489,"end":63.019,"text":"那現在在高等法院二審審理所以在立法院我們也正式決議要求這個現在國安會吳秘書長應該要自行請辭因為他是跟這個案件他是主管的主管的部分"},{"start":63.559,"end":78.248,"text":"可是我們看到這個國安會發表聲明不僅指責立法院我們的認真的監督是政治操作打擊國安團隊那我們想要說的是我們是監督政府的立法機關那我們"},{"start":78.988,"end":108.288,"text":"需要真正來檢討的是真正被中共滲透 洩漏長期這又機密數年了這是我們認為的政府高層的核心那這邊我們要想要請教這個國安局作為主要的情治單位那政府的核心的內部防線沒有守住讓共諜潛藏數年那現在我們是不是來請教國安局對最近我們內部所有政府單位的機合機要人員的中層查核機制"},{"start":108.988,"end":114.335,"text":"有沒有什麼樣的機制那是不是可以請具體的改進是不是可以回答一下"},{"start":116.817,"end":117.217,"text":"法務部在嗎來 法務部參事"},{"start":148.379,"end":173.213,"text":"主席好 我又好好 謝謝 謝參事請說明針對特殊查核的部分目前有關公務人員查核分一般查核跟特別查核那一般查核就是由各機關來負責那特殊查核的部分目前雖然是由我們法務部的調查局來主責但是因為在來之前我並沒有收到這樣的訊息說要針對特定哪一個部會的特殊查核的機制是不是有什麼變化"},{"start":173.786,"end":195.383,"text":"我想這部分我這邊可能還沒有辦法仔細的那請說那請問這現在你們針對最近發生的這些案子共諜案內部發生共諜案你們有做什麼樣的精進行為不要講哪個單位整體來講你知道你們有做哪些精進行為嗎是共諜案如果有具體的個案發生檢察官有收到這樣的請辭基本上"},{"start":196.133,"end":218.334,"text":"不管在屬於二省專屬管轄的抬高檢或是各地的二省分檢其實都會立刻就會發動相關的懲查組作為那另外其實調查局也一直是國安工作裡面很重要的一個角色其實大概都有按照我國的法令然後按照目前當下的情況那按照上級的政策指示來加強來查核因為現在的時機確實是"},{"start":219.662,"end":229.071,"text":"不同 那就這部分的話是法務部作為行政團隊的議員這邊其實都有精力在做好 謝謝 我們再請國安單位的代表"},{"start":230.263,"end":256.988,"text":"所以本席在這邊還是要特別要講就是國人最擔心的這我們政府內部有這個共諜的滲入可是剛剛聽到不管是國安局或者是法務部兩邊好像沒有確實到底應該要怎麼做如何精進的一些方式好像沒有特別的一個討論出來的一個結果所以拜託你們後續再可以努力一下把一些具體的成果下次再質詢的時候可以當面說出來好嗎"},{"start":258.667,"end":277.498,"text":"是 謝謝委員知道 包括委員這個因為本局是負責情報搜集工作那相關這些狀況本局都有在滾動的更新跟加強的收集那相關案件發生之後我們也有去更新這些手法跟太陽要求各國安情報團隊來去針對這個案件的線索或情緒這樣的搜報那有關訊息我們會及時提供給相關黨委來去做徵處好 那接下來我們請司法機關"},{"start":283.179,"end":306.072,"text":"這邊我有收到一個這個檢察機關辦理涉反滲透法案件的一個統計我們可以看到這張統計表裡面當時我們都很擔心說這個反滲透法就是我們擔心的就是說對選舉有會有算計或者是針對民眾的一些生活或者對選舉會對民主有開倒車的情形我們看一下在109年反滲透法"},{"start":307.211,"end":328.972,"text":"開始以後我們的案件從統計喔我們看到齁在這個偵查的人數來看喔從110年開始是0人111年12人112年29人在昨天在去年喔總統大選的時候這個偵查的人數高達477人那不起訴的人數大概是359人這就是我們剛要特別提到"},{"start":329.532,"end":356.904,"text":"難道反滲透法就是在這個選舉期間大量的來去抓人尤其我們可以知道說這個非常多的我們一般的里長宗教團體跟旅遊團被抓那最後是證明無罪所以我們在擔心就是說反滲透法是不是在選舉期間造成人民這個巨大的心理壓力跟名譽損害然後讓社會來再造成寒蟬效應那是不是可以請司法機關解釋一下說為什麼在平常沒有選舉期間"},{"start":358.764,"end":380.334,"text":"這個偵查的人大概都不到50個人那在選舉期間偵查的人數居然高達400多個人那不起訴的人數將近八成以上所以這樣的情形會不會讓我們覺得說就是讓人家覺得是不是執政黨藉由這個反滲透法在選舉期間大幅的去抓人讓民眾有寒蟬效益 是不是可以解釋一下"},{"start":381.368,"end":397.809,"text":"謝謝委員垂詢法院審判案件基本上是針對甲官起訴的案件來做公正中立的審理那所以說就剛才委員垂詢的關於偵查這個數量的部分是不是還是請這個主管機關法務部來做回答那請法務部"},{"start":399.059,"end":420.514,"text":"那我這邊要說明一下其實這個跟我們法案滲透法的法律結構有關我們法案滲透法的條文裡面它所有的處罰條文其實裡面有很大一塊是在框公職人權運動法跟中等人權運動法裡面的所謂的選舉行為另外一個是有關刑責的再加重"},{"start":421.514,"end":437.787,"text":"這裡面就有兩條至少就有兩條是跟選舉有關那也因此為什麼在選舉期間這種案子會特別多是因為在選舉期間才會有該當於這兩條的狀況出現那另外就是在選舉期間如何是杜絕境外勢力的干涉其實是近年來選舉常常的一個重點"},{"start":438.649,"end":453.369,"text":"那也因此我們在巡查的時候我們其實是會加強力道是盡量杜絕這個境外借權的可能性也因此安園會比較多不過我們講到這邊大概處理上原來都有秉持公正以及這個本於正確的立場所以"},{"start":453.989,"end":472.81,"text":"該起訴的不該起訴的我們這邊都有做一個合理的篩選那以上來跟委員報告那是不是可以請法務部再說明一下因為我們看到被這個偵查的人有477人可是不起訴大概是359人那是不是有一些你們可不可以解釋一下說到底為什麼會那麼多人被偵查"},{"start":474.771,"end":501.916,"text":"偵查的原因到底是什麼是不是說只是去大陸旅遊啊去跟大陸做交流就被偵查那是不是所以很多人說那就是選舉前一年就不要去大陸旅遊所以才不會被偵查有這樣的說法 這坊間的說法是 謝謝委員垂詢其實針對這個狀況因為在選舉查查期間案源是多元的包括各地的有關的司法警察機關的搜報或是來自民眾的告發跟檢舉甚至有很多匿名檢舉的狀況"},{"start":503.12,"end":520.252,"text":"那以檢察機關這邊來講有案子來的話我們就會收辦那收辦之後我們會依法來偵辦那不過因為反勝鬥法立法結構裡面大概都會有一個客觀的構成要件是必須是有收境外敵對勢力的一個資助或是委託等等"},{"start":520.819,"end":536.921,"text":"所以在這段期間如果是跟中國大陸那邊有任何的交涉往來其實會有一個基本的一個嫌疑在但是這樣的嫌疑並不導致會引致後續的強力的偵辦作為或是起訴那只是一個辦案上面的一個方向"},{"start":537.742,"end":559.449,"text":"那其實這個狀況到底也不是針對所謂的到大陸旅遊就一定會變成反送中法的偵辦的當然課題不是這樣而是說在選舉查查期間事實上其實包括在國內旅遊也有可能會被標定為這是不是有招待旅遊是違反選罷法裡面相關的行為所以檢察官的偵辦方向都不會單獨是針對說因為"},{"start":561.429,"end":588.035,"text":"我們的國人有跟中國大陸方有做交流就當然設定他是我們的偵辦對象這個倒是因為是法條的結構跟選舉查查案件的本質實案好 謝謝那最後我還是想要拜託政府機關內部還是要把這個相關核心遭滲透的這個問題來解決那外部的部分也希望避免這個司法浪費那好好來保護人民這個民主的權利以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167054","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167054","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0fbcfae9b60a41f7ae6ea9f55fbd6b8757fca8e6801c49bdd3d33e1e9d2057dc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:45:43 - 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前序部還有人事行政總署"},{"start":125.183,"end":152.711,"text":"要去跟左院長報告或協調當然就考試院來講要去協調已經審定公佈施行就尤其是考試院或者是人事行政總書而言依法行政公佈生效有效的法例這個部分真的是一個需要我們好好的去溝通協調的部分"},{"start":154.022,"end":180.114,"text":"好我們看這個公務人員退休之前撫恤法的修正114年12月26號總統公佈施行這個我們卓榮泰院長也附屬了附屬表示同意對不對就附屬了然後現在情緒部的報告也說114年12月28號"},{"start":184.647,"end":208.942,"text":"公布施行之後生效生效這個考試院的報告卻因為說這個將使退府基金提前用盡意思本院難以順遂推行推行使基金永續之法定限定執掌因此本院已向憲法法庭提出釋憲及暫時處分之申請"},{"start":216.017,"end":236.984,"text":"這個如果用這樣的那個理由用這個理由因為退伏基金會提前用盡用這個理由這個理由真的是很牽強用這個理由真的是很牽強那是一個財政另外一個問題這個秘書長一直要回應"},{"start":244.14,"end":263.135,"text":"這是跟委員報告說 財政問題很嚴重 這個牽涉到後面年輕世代的權益這個部分不能因為這個理由來去釋憲好 我們再回顧 我已經講了很多次了 你也聽了很多次了"},{"start":264.824,"end":291.821,"text":"国家年金改革委员会是蔡英文总统成立的由陈建仁当时的副总统主持召开跨院跨专业专家写者开了20次的会议然后由考试院提出了公务院退休之前符系法的版本结果立法院"},{"start":293.415,"end":316.169,"text":"當時立法院民進黨記憶絕對多數對不對考試院的版本是小砍立法院把它大砍我上次沒有機會跟您說明因為那時候你已經離開了我要修正一個可能您的記憶年金改革委員會提出的版本跟考試院後來提出的版本不一樣"},{"start":318.725,"end":336.233,"text":"考試院砍得比較少年改會的決議那個社會討論二十多次還有說明會等等那個程序出來的決議是後來的應該是當時行政院提出的版本行政院提出的教育人員版本是依照那個年改會的決議"},{"start":337.173,"end":364.259,"text":"那民進黨黨團提了一個版本那民進黨還有當時還有別的國會議員還有提出各種修正版本只是我要講的是說考試院不是照年改會的決議去提版本的好不管怎麼樣啊都是砍小砍大砍而現在是停砍立法院是停砍"},{"start":365.874,"end":395.017,"text":"所以你要用這個做理由是事先的做理由真的是最主最重要的最重要的因為軍公教本來就要依法行政然後考試院行政院要帶頭不依法行政然後用這個是財政的是另外一個財政的問題就像勞保對不對還有財政的問題"},{"start":396.716,"end":404.6,"text":"也有財政的問題所以這個另外一個制度的問題好不好這個部分是一個需要審慎的一邊釋憲一邊也會依法來執行以上 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你不要浪費我的時間其實你要講的就是我們其實呢 只有增訂一條同時要處理這麼多事情但是呢 事務發布你們自己的報告你們到現在你們還在互推剛剛你也講到 主管機關請問一下 人民是要怎麼樣依照這麼樣的一條法規來遵守呢"},{"start":179.796,"end":193.987,"text":"近期的小紅書被處置而社會大眾根本不知道原因是什麼這正是我們民眾現在最擔心的地方啊我們完全不知道標準在哪裡政府只要用一句基於國安輕輕的帶過而人民的焦慮仍然是沒有辦法解決的"},{"start":200.172,"end":220.084,"text":"現在我們又有委員提案增加所謂的灰色地帶的行為的制裁陸委會你在報告中也提到尊重建立灰色地帶行為的申報機制是能夠有效補強民主防衛機制的我要請問一下梁副主委什麼叫做灰色地帶行為人"},{"start":221.425,"end":238.001,"text":"具體的定義要件是什麼 哪一些行為算 哪一些行為不算 請你簡單的說明一下譬如說你在正式參選 或是正式向監察院申報之前那你這個在有意參選 或是還在醞釀參選 還是在幫人家抬轎的這些人"},{"start":241.912,"end":261.373,"text":"這就要到灰色地帶的行為好很好 梁副主委你說到了不只是所謂灰色地帶行為你們根本都講不清楚你們這次還要把觸角伸到您參選人您知道嗎連內政部他自己的報告都承認法案裡面根本沒有您參選人的明確定義"},{"start":263.074,"end":277.12,"text":"標準長什麼樣子完全說不出來請問這樣的概念是要怎麼執行報告委員您參選人其實在查會的時候就知道因為查會的時候他不會只限於說你是參選人他在查會之前參選人之前他就會查了你回去看一下內政部的報告好不好"},{"start":288.064,"end":290.547,"text":"我們現在看起來執政黨你們根本不是在補所謂的漏洞你們是要用更模糊的罪名要擴權然後讓檢調變成政府的打手你們隨時就可以出手抓人讓人民在法院之間疲於奔命"},{"start":305.928,"end":311.052,"text":"坦白講就是要管住人民的嘴綁住人民的手逼大家閉嘴然後把整個社會推向更恐懼而政府你們一再說由於所謂的境外敵對勢力散播謠言還有不實的資訊破壞了人民對政府的信任"},{"start":326.303,"end":328.745,"text":"我真的不這麼認為而且絕大部分的台灣人民也不這麼認為我們看一下多年以來我們的政府從疫苗的購買口罩的危機雞蛋的危機到最近對等關稅的議題還有我們的軍購的延宕甚至連我們非關的防寒衣的問題"},{"start":347.253,"end":369.086,"text":"人民對我們的政府早就已經出現信任危機了啦是政府你們的施政一再的錯誤讓人民再也難以相信我們的政府了而我們的政府不在人民的生活上面需要積極的回應人民的要求你們只是一昧的以所謂的國家安全做理由來限縮人民的基本權利我想民心只會離我們的執政者越來越遠的"},{"start":375.154,"end":377.235,"text":"人民要的就是非常的簡單我要吃得飽我要穿得暖但是呢執政黨你們做不到你們一再的用所謂的亡國感來轉移焦點你們只想讓人民閉嘴我們來看一下這個數據"},{"start":391.962,"end":399.847,"text":"2026年世界不平等報告指出了台灣最富有的10%的人口掌握了全台灣61%的財富金字塔頂端的1%的超級富豪就佔了我們台灣的27%而底層的50%的民眾我們僅僅只剩下4%的財富請問一下我們政府有真正在面對這些民生問題嗎"},{"start":421.842,"end":438.255,"text":"如果我們的政府把力氣都用在處理異己然後做政治清算每一次執政不力就搬出所謂的國安危機來作為掩飾最後只會讓人民更加的不安讓民主更脆弱"},{"start":439.156,"end":447.559,"text":"我要再說一次國安不是口號民主也不是擺在檯面上的裝飾品政府應該要做的是要守護的是全體人民的權利跟生活而不是執政的方便我覺得在場的大家我剛剛以上說的那些話請大家好好的思考而不是讓我們的政府執政不力轉移焦點謝謝"},{"start":470.332,"end":470.597,"text":"谢谢"}]}},{"id":"167071","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167071","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce03048a80a8a6b02978a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e9015297dab12b64c84673915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:06:10 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這個是這段時間我一直困擾的冒用我的信箱去威脅對於恐嚇要攻擊總統府啊 松山機場101啊我已經報案了六次 這是跨年這段時間連光國慶日那個時候還十幾次我都報案 你們也都在偵查有沒有查出來是境外嗎還在查應該 這個警察署會比較了解好 趕快辦 因為都是用簡體字的下一頁"},{"start":272.111,"end":299.393,"text":"這就是國慶日的那一波好我要用這個是說如果用言論只是在鼓吹暴力用暴力的威脅我們都要神之以法我都需要報案那麼危及國家安全的用言論來支持武統支持中國犯台這當然也不是言論自由所允許的嘛對不對下一頁檢察總長也已經說了立法規範"},{"start":301.167,"end":325.603,"text":"對於對敵效忠的還有要檢討法規的灰色地帶以及言論自由非沒有底線在台設統戰的言論都將受罰如果鼓吹犯罪都要吳斯堯要一個案一個案去提告我不縱容這些暴力那當然對於要對台灣武統的這些暴力也完全是零容忍的不要雙標所以我們的手法非常的一致喔夏業"},{"start":326.687,"end":347.294,"text":"我今天有機會在內政委員會就教於各位因為我們上週在司法法治委員會針對陸海控軍刑法24條修正的時候要加重降低罪責於法院那一天我沒有機會問到梁文傑副主委我基本上都支持我們要提高不盡其責降低罪的刑責這些都該做"},{"start":348.535,"end":362.694,"text":"那天在野黨委員有一些非常荒誕的比喻啊因為法條的內容是說以言論舉動文字圖畫電磁記錄科技方法或其他方式對敵人效忠的表示我們增加了這一項"},{"start":364.44,"end":391.831,"text":"在野黨委員一直說這非常抽象這樣子文字非常抽象會是文字獄但是如同我剛剛說的如果對於這種暴力言論攻擊公共設施都要嚴正以待去繩之以法那為什麼對於國安的相關的內容尤其降敵或者是拍影片替對方宣傳這些在野黨的委員認為可以放手呢"},{"start":393.905,"end":414.185,"text":"那我就教於副主委喔軍人的忠誠義務是大法官釋字430號非常清楚的闡釋而現行軍人的忠誠義務若被違反只能夠用貪污治罪條例的違背職務收賄罪來處理所以這法制要補強下一頁這就是非常有名的這個"},{"start":416.266,"end":439.701,"text":"陸軍的上校向德恩遭中國吸收開始收賄2019年開始而且簽署了投降承諾書這是非常具體的一點都不抽象但是我們只能用貪污治罪條例的收賄罪去起訴他下一頁而這些搭配中國來拍攝願意投降解放軍的照片的這些人也只能夠用收賄罪來起訴"},{"start":441.182,"end":468.123,"text":"所以說副主委你在這裡可以清楚的告訴我們雖然這不是今天在內政委員會的主題但是陸海空軍刑法也是一整包的國安法案你可不可以說明一下陸委會的主張陸委會的主張很清楚就是這些凡是這些漏洞我們都應該補起來你特別是我講更具體的像這個向德恩的案子你看到的只是表面的一個但是你每抓到一個後面就一定有一串"},{"start":469.304,"end":495.157,"text":"那前兩天還有南部南部也有南部軍團也有一個同樣的同樣的案例同樣也是被檢方起訴我想國安局在這邊很清楚就是說類似這種拍影片向中共宣誓效忠然後說一旦戰爭的時候我不抵抗甚至我要這個倒戈相向的類類這樣的具體的案例在軍中其實現在是一個危機"},{"start":496.258,"end":524.174,"text":"所以我們這個修這個刑法其實是完全是有具體對應的案件要處理的而不是隨便處理 而不是隨便修一修的這樣子好 謝謝副主委喔所以因應其實這些行為都是現在進行式就像你講 抓到一個後面都是一瓦啦一粒肉贓頭後面都是幾瓦啦我們如果不趕快補強了國安法之路漏洞陸海空軍刑法"},{"start":524.654,"end":538.806,"text":"具體的增加降敵的這些作為我認為我們真的很難很難向中國這些滲透的行為來宣戰所以今天在場內政委員會有非常多的部會都是國安法案的主責的部會"},{"start":539.505,"end":561.963,"text":"我們就是堅持為國家的國安我們拼上最後一塊的國安拼圖其實不是一塊 好多塊的國安拼圖大家一起努力我在司法法治委員會我們在相關的法案 陸海扣除刑法或是未來的軍事審判的制度我們也會全力的跟大家一起合作加油 辛苦了 謝謝欸 梁文傑沒有拿水杯上台"}]}},{"id":"167070","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167070","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0baacbc6e4e7a590e8a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e9015297dab12b64c84673915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:59:34 - 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目前都沒有所以就是說因為我覺得對中國來講就是說呢交流這件事情他可以去運用這些交流形成統戰的這個結果像之前我們就常發生這種體育的交流體育的交流對國人來講聽起來很正常啊去打打棒球啊去玩玩扯鈴啊聽起來好像沒有什麼但是後來我們才發現後面好幾個共諜案"},{"start":198.18,"end":215,"text":"他竟然就是從比如說扯鈴的交流開始他在趁這個交流的時候呢去吸收我們的扯鈴的教練然後再藉由去滲透我們的軍方然後取得我們軍事的機密那他從頭到尾原來在一開始在辦那一個扯鈴相關的活動的時候目標竟然就是要滲透我們的這個扯鈴教練"},{"start":217.202,"end":238.112,"text":"所以就是說我們會認為是正常的交流對他來講不正常所以如果我們事先沒有辦法防範事先沒有辦法知道這些交流的內容他見了誰有沒有可能簽了什麼東西的話這個對我們來講一定會有規範不足的問題所以現在能不能夠把這個揭露做得更好我覺得這是應該未來蠻重要的一個目標"},{"start":238.872,"end":258.71,"text":"我們這陣子國安法其實修法已經開始慢慢在推動了那今天也有很多反滲透法的這個修法那這個修法大部分還是比如說他去參與了這個統戰的活動我們可能應該要怎麼規範國安法裡面他除了發展以外他如果去參與組織的話我們應該要怎麼規範他大部分還是就是他都已經做了做完之後我們說這個不行這個要被處罰"},{"start":260.692,"end":282.611,"text":"但如果能夠在他做之前我們就知道這個有風險這也是陸委會一直以來在做的事情國人復入的時候去警告他說你可能會有這個風險你什麼事可以做什麼事不能做但我知道第一個就是我們目前的法規範不可能叫每一個人來中國然後到來跟陸委會報備這是非常困難的事情第二個就是陸委會的量能可能會不夠"},{"start":283.551,"end":300.823,"text":"這可能是需要增加預算但是我們目前的這一個預算審查的方式很難讓陸委會有更多的預算來做這件事情但它還是一個大目標所以呢今天藉由反社交法的修法我覺得要討論這個內容我看大家意見當然可能會各自不同對於這個處罰的這個高低壓比例原則啊什麼等等之類的"},{"start":301.383,"end":327.902,"text":"但我想要提醒的就是這個完了以後往下一步我們應該要有更多的這個揭露制度那因此如果陸委會開始要做這些相關的要來申報然後你要檢查然後事後還要看他到底揭露的內容到底是對還是錯到底跟事實符不符合那個量能是要提高的量能如果要提高需要多少的人員然後需要多少的預算我們再往下一次下一個年度的時候希望陸委會能夠也把這件事情考慮進去是 謝謝委員"},{"start":330.243,"end":354.558,"text":"跟委員報告一下現在我們的特定的身份人員或公務員如果要經過聯審會的話那基本上他去大陸的話我們是要審查您所提到的資料那我們這次陸委會提的兩岸條例的修正草案裡面第九條裡面針對民選公職人員的附錄我們也訂定了公開介入的一些規定希望委員能夠支持"},{"start":355.738,"end":383.013,"text":"對沒問題 這個也是我被擋了非常久的一個法案之一那我知道有一些變成是他今天要如果要報的話有一些他不是屬於剛剛要到連審會他可能要跟原機關但是跟原機關那個原機關在認定的標準是什麼這可能也很需要陸委會提供標準雖然的話那個原機關可能他完全不知道自己應該要做什麼事情那就變成說他的法律空在那邊雖然還沒過啦但是如果過的話他到底要審查什麼他要準備什麼資料這可能也是需要你們提供標準陸委會會來協助各機關"},{"start":384.594,"end":385.839,"text":"沒問題 那就我先問到這邊謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167069","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167069","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0b52f217d3013b01a8a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e9015297dab12b64c84673915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:42:37 - 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這個法務部有請加法務部參事好 這個早安啦"},{"start":23.974,"end":46.75,"text":"我們今天召委排定反滲透法的相關的詢答當然是因為很多民進黨委員有提案就是說反滲透法目前沒有辦法填補所謂的國安漏洞所以大部分提了很多不管是國安法庭的設置也好或者是加重罰則等等的一些方向希望透過修法來提高國安防護的一個等級"},{"start":48.807,"end":73.108,"text":"問題是這樣子的齁 這個去年3月 賴清德總統其實就召開了記者會講說有所謂的五大統戰威脅還有賴17條 17條因應策略其中就有國安法 上禮拜討論的反滲透法 兩岸人民關係條例等等的一些修正案那行政院從去年3月到今天大概8 9個月 快一年了嘛快一年了 10個月了齁 那"},{"start":73.829,"end":95.638,"text":"國安法上禮拜當然是因為有願版所以重新進行了詢答的程序那後面還要再召開所謂的公聽會那我今天看今天排反滲透法的相關的一個質詢但是看起來還是都只有民進黨委員提案的相關的一個版本而我看了一下各部會提出的這個書面報告很多對於委員提案的版本大概也都有一些不同的意見"},{"start":96.638,"end":105.763,"text":"說要漸行再酌或者是說並不一定有立法這樣子的一個必要那我想請教一下這個行政院版會推反滲透法嗎"},{"start":108.595,"end":129.195,"text":"好 謝謝委員 垂詢因為反省政法本身它是屬於行政院的法規不是法務部管的法規不過法務部身為行政團隊的議員那如果行政院這邊有希望我們這邊來做協助研議或者是說我們這邊本與志全發現有什麼條件需要建議的話"},{"start":131.616,"end":154.407,"text":"應該會有相關啟動研議的作為但是因為目前還沒有收到行政院明確的指示所以我們目前是還沒有具體的條文出來好 這到底哪一個單位來如果要有院版的話是由哪一個單位來處理的國安局嗎 還是內政部 還是陸委會三個一起上來好了你們討論一下會不會有院版好不好我們要聽具體的答案好 副主委有請"},{"start":163.168,"end":189.931,"text":"我想經過今天的討論之後各位委員的所有的提案我們都會帶回去包括不管在野黨還是執政黨的立委的意見那我想執政團隊應該會有一個方案出來好 內政部呢大概都一樣啦因為這個反省團內容其實很多部會啦我想這個當然如果願有指示我們都會來配合來 國安局"},{"start":191.605,"end":217.801,"text":"法委員如果有需要本局提供相關資源或意見我們也會請你協助好 謝謝問題就是這樣這些法案其實在我印象中第一會期就已經進來了也就是說各委員的 民進黨委員提案的版本就已經進來了那其實去年3月總統開記者會然後一直到現在今天各單位的回答還是說如果願有指示我們來做一下調整今天會帶回去研議等等"},{"start":218.241,"end":242.342,"text":"那這樣其實啊 就 問題就來了嘛到時候會不會今天詢答都答完了之後到時候又跑出一個願板然後大家又要重新進行程序這我們希望大家審慎一點前期的溝通 既然要做總統都有指示了 就仔細一點來做啦來副主委還有話要補充嗎就是各位委員今天講的各種意見我們都會拿回去參考所以請各位委員今天多多指教"},{"start":243.363,"end":257.423,"text":"就是說就內容的部分 多多給我們意見好不好 謝謝對啊 因為看起來默契有一點點不太好啦 我提醒一下要修當然是可以 要討論當然大家就健康的來討論 好不好好 那我們來針對法案的內容 我們來再做一下做一些想法 這個"},{"start":259.165,"end":278.537,"text":"因為你現在問題是這樣 因為現在沒有行政院同一個版本所以每一條每一條要細問 時間也不夠用啦那我就直接講這個東西過去被大家詬病的地方其實就在於就是說你很難真的去變成定罪上的困難嘛包含剛剛副主委都講說起訴但判決無罪不代表真的無罪 欸這還蠻誇張的"},{"start":280.612,"end":296.988,"text":"我當然知道你的意思是要強調定罪上的困難但法律明確性等等相關的保障他也是要兼顧的我想大家是很清楚的那關鍵就是在說你很難證明什麼叫被滲透嘛對不對以實務上來講大家去講說比如說中國大陸啊最常被大家拿來講所謂的滲透啊"},{"start":298.69,"end":325.901,"text":"就是實務上 比如說中國大陸啊 透過台商啊給予政治獻金 找到政治人物就聽差辦事這就聽起來言之成理但那其實非常去脈絡化的一種說法為什麼這樣說呢因為這樣說那很多人恐怕都要被辦啊 對不對比如說這個我們有紅孩兒事件 對不對這個即便大政黨不同 講法不一樣可是有沒有在中國大陸有經商的事實恐怕是有的 對不對那這樣經商的事實有沒有成為選舉的支持"},{"start":326.704,"end":331.671,"text":"你很難證明有可能有有可能沒有所以到最後都鬼打架不管是哪一黨哪一派"},{"start":332.662,"end":361.228,"text":"就到底有滲透沒滲透通通講不清楚這也是為什麼我們今天在談反滲透法修正的時候之所以不管是國安法、反滲透法、良人民關係條約大家都強調明確性原則的原因就在這個地方因為你一不小心就會跨過自由的紅線嘛造成的壓迫我們如果給予行政機關太大的裁量空間對不對讓梁副主委變成法官這樣子不太行啦 對不對給予太大的裁量空間反而是對於司法公信力的再一次的打擊啦"},{"start":362.148,"end":387.443,"text":"所以即便我看了一下今天大部分的修法都說我要有國安法庭我要加重罰則我要怎麼樣來做處理可是問題是都沒有觸及到這個法案核心的問題也就是你到底要怎麼去界定這件事情嘛那到了最後很有可能你修完之後還是因為無法界定而無法定罪那修了等於白修或者是說你因為界定的時候觸犯了政治的紅線他遭到很多困難這就是為什麼我今天一定要提說如果要審這個法案一定要有院版"},{"start":388.143,"end":413.426,"text":"一定要一個明確的基準如果各委員有各行其事利益都良善本席願意相信這不同黨派都沒有關係但是核心的問題沒有辦法被解決也沒有統一版本來做討論的時候恐怕會有一些困難這是本席要做的第一個提醒第二個是有關於這個國安法庭我想要問一下好了 梁副主委內政部應該可以回了但是這個法務部跟司法院好不好國安局可以回法務部跟司法院我要問一下國安法庭的部分"},{"start":415.37,"end":443.283,"text":"這個是這部法案目前有的版本裡面比較敏感的地方啦好 大家都覺得說 ㄟ 一樣啊 這聽起來喔 對啊 國安相關的案件交給國安相關素養的法官來判對 一樣言之成理 但它同樣有實務上操作的問題我想請教一下法務部跟司法院現在民進黨委員在提案說明等等都有講就是說 你現在違反國安法相關法案的這個犯罪最後都輕判了事你們同意都是輕判了事這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":447.53,"end":467.707,"text":"謝謝委員催詢那我這邊先檢驗回來後面可能要請司法院先生補充首先就草案的第11條之一的立法理由裡面有提到刑度的分析那這個是應該是根據本部在網路上有公開的相關的統計數據那這個當然是客觀的不過因為我這邊要補充說明的是"},{"start":468.528,"end":494.608,"text":"這個客觀數據的解讀你必須要放在它是一個新的法所以它起訴也都是在最近這幾年很多案子其實還沒有確定都還在路上所以裡面包括了剛剛有委員提到的桃園的某民眾被起訴的案子以及南部也有好幾件其實都是重判的刑度事實上現在是上訴在最高法院之中這邊可能就這個數據的部分"},{"start":496.209,"end":516.942,"text":"要補充說明 因為還沒確定 所以沒有納入統計所以其實也沒有都輕判嘛 對不對最近幾個 比如說共諜的案子其實也都有用國安法 七年八年以上對不對是有區分情節的 是有區分情節的嘛 好那現在民進黨委員也擔心啦 我想也是善意提醒啦就是說現在刑事法官恐怕缺乏國安相關知識"},{"start":517.996,"end":529.108,"text":"這樣子的一個 我姑且講提醒 你們認嗎你們覺得現在的法官 司法院也好 法務部也好從你們的角度 現行的法官缺乏相關 國安的相關知識嗎這是司法院回答 法官嘛 對不對謝謝委員崔群"},{"start":532.216,"end":548.272,"text":"那办理国安军事案件的法官其实现在都已经有专庭或专股的办理而且每年至少从109年到去年每年都有国安研习会的专业课程的培训"},{"start":548.892,"end":574.082,"text":"那甚至去年114年還一年有兩次的這個研習會的培訓分別是實務界跟學術界都有相關的這個教育課程所以法官基本上都已經具有相關的這個專業了而且一年至少有12個小時的這個訓練課程還有剛剛委員所問到是不是都有輕判那本院當然就尊重法官的這個審判權的行使"},{"start":575.441,"end":593.159,"text":"那就譬如說在去年114年來說地方法院反滲透法有三人都是判到超過六個月的刑度甚至高等法院有一人判到超過兩年的刑度所以未必都是所謂的輕判的狀況以上就簡單回覆委員 謝謝"},{"start":597.984,"end":627.28,"text":"好 所以你剛剛我簡單講就針對國安法庭這一部分其實你們已經有專股跟專門的訓練也有在辦課程嘛 對不對是的啊所以我想如果單純只是哪怕只是題點的角度你講說缺乏國安知識的專業訓練我覺得好像對司法院也有一點不公平好 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召委一位同仁請我們國安局我們的陳副處長還有我們內政部的副處長好 兩位處長針對因為網路的詐騙包含手機高度的普及今天我們修了反滲透法的部分條文的修正草案"},{"start":27.694,"end":57.362,"text":"那民眾大家都知道以前過去我們曾經修過但是已經時空背景都不一樣已經也過了五六年那現在是AI的時代也高科技的時代那現在的詐騙的手腕都是非常的先進你像在是Meta的詐騙在我們網路上大家都可以看得出來那未來我們對我們國家的安全性"},{"start":58.318,"end":79.334,"text":"我們要怎樣去做防範現在是整個防範的系統要怎樣來賀值畢竟現在在11月就大選了那地方選舉會不會又過成境外勢力的介入這是本席比較關心的那是不是請我們"},{"start":82.836,"end":91.667,"text":"國安局來看你們掌握到的Meta他們那個詐騙的數量有多少有沒有赫茲有沒有逐年的下降"},{"start":93.072,"end":115.178,"text":"是 跟委員報告這個針對這個委員所關心今年關於選舉的狀況本局這個會有相關的專案來因應那網路上流傳這些徵印訊息因為我們比較關注徵印訊息影響國家安全的部分像我們去年2025年我們就掌握了231萬余者的徵印訊息那也有發現231萬余者的對 認知作戰徵印訊息那我們也掌握了4萬5千多筆的這個假帳號"},{"start":118.499,"end":145.33,"text":"那相關當 相關的狀況我們也有循我們的專案機制通報相關機關來做查處那也有請相關的社群平台業者來做下架動作那委員所關心可能涉及到年底選舉的部分我們本局會持續協同各國安情報團隊來加強掌握這部分狀況來及時應處李昌鮑跟委員說明但是我我們國安局我聽你所講我們就是有查獲但是你要喝止你有沒有懲處"},{"start":147.891,"end":162.262,"text":"只不過是下架而已那這樣 報告員如果涉及到這個惡假害我們也會請我們司法警察機關比如說調查局或刑事局來去針對這個來去做依法的追訴跟查查"},{"start":163.854,"end":193.241,"text":"因為我們最主要是要怎樣來嚇阻因為Meta的數量是太過驚人這對我們整個國家的安全對百姓的詐騙都是一種非常嚴重的傷害這是我們本身我們公務單位就是要積極的去嚇阻這種事情的發生這是我們現在都比較積極的來做的所以今天修律法 申託法的部分條文修正案"},{"start":193.821,"end":221.222,"text":"本席是非常的認同這是對我們未來整個國家的安全性我們還是要秉持的趕快去讓我們民眾的傷害降到最低這是我們應該要做的好那我請我們內政部針對我們未來的選舉這個網路的信息不正確的信息我們要怎樣來做處理"},{"start":224.687,"end":252.197,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指教我想那個選舉期間的時候因為如果是公職人員選罷就依照公職選罷的相關規定如果一旦有這種網路或是AI 聲委等等的那目前來講的話我們都是說只要是警察機關我們這邊去依照他的鑑識結果我們會要求業者在兩天內就要下架然後限制瀏覽跟移除那另外就是說也跟委員報告"},{"start":253.237,"end":259.534,"text":"像这种的话我们不管在总统选办法或者是公职人员选办法其实都有谈到有散播播放"},{"start":260.458,"end":287.297,"text":"然後讓候選人因為譬如說身為影像等等而犯選舉誹謗那這個是照規定是七年以下的徒刑而且還可以如果是意圖盈利還可以加重其二分之一那我想在這個部分其實我們目前包括公民的素養我們這邊也都是有來透過希望有教育跟宣導來讓民眾有思辨能力那也把這個相關的法令規定都會跟大家講那我想剛談到像這種"},{"start":290.303,"end":298.295,"text":"選舉然後藉由網路的那這個部分其實我們警察機關就是剛剛國安局有談到我們相關的部會其實都有在共同來做一個追蹤跟處理"},{"start":299.261,"end":319.997,"text":"好的 因為現在已經是AI時代你早期五六年前那時候反滲透法的條文 修正條文那時候AI還不是那麼盛行那現在這幾年是AI的竄起那以後我們AI的辨識這應該是重中之重是 好 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陽泉發言 邀請部長請顧部長"},{"start":12.08,"end":38.556,"text":"是 部長好我們來討論一個關鍵彈藥數量足夠嗎的這個問題那近年來許多的軍事衝突我們都很清楚一個事實戰爭的勝負它不是只有單一因子它不只是取決於武器先進與否而且是在能不能在高消耗的這個情境上面你可以持續的去補充彈藥維持這個戰力"},{"start":40.937,"end":54.153,"text":"那現在我們戰爭當中 我們很清楚看到彈藥消耗的速度往往比超平常的時候 它速度需求更大 對不對所以特別是在防空飛彈"},{"start":56.281,"end":77.258,"text":"這個精準導引彈藥以及火炮彈藥跟無人系統相關的這個耗材那一旦如果進入到暫時的高度交鋒的時候如果補給鏈去中斷庫存不足那即使擁有有先進的武器也可能在短時間之內喪失了這個有效的戰力對不對 部長是"},{"start":82.122,"end":84.788,"text":"那市的情況之下我們要先來討論國內我們的生產量能可以嗎"},{"start":95.108,"end":110.405,"text":"我們現在應該有分說國內可以產製但是可能現有產能不足或者是國內沒有產能需要外國獲得國內產製可以的我們到底我們的量能有沒有照我們原先所規劃的這個量能可以產出"},{"start":113.425,"end":132.932,"text":"所以如果以輕兵器的這些彈藥我想是不是軍備局說明一下好 軍備局請做說明跟委員說明我們205的輕兵器就是在今年的3月我們有用中科院的那個委協書做了FM的你講的是5.56公里的這個鋼筋嗎90公里跟50機槍我們都會今年都會恢復量產"},{"start":140.575,"end":159.212,"text":"恢復量產為什麼呢因為應該是繳成是比您所剛剛一直委員詢問的你預計在今年的三月份你的這個產線可以再去量產那但是如果依照我們原先的規劃應該是往前推嘛是不是對產線是不是來"},{"start":164.315,"end":182.533,"text":"產線的擴張 我假如是按照剛剛馬遠的執行過了我舊產線兩條 新產線有四條那我只要再增加了底火我也有編了特別預算我的底火我再擴一條線那在高耗的情況之下我們評估是可以滿足我們的需求的"},{"start":183.113,"end":194.385,"text":"評估是可以滿足我們的需求所以依照目前你所說的3月份的這個部分是可以5.56的這個鋼琴的部分你是可以滿足這個需求而且擴限滿足這個需求同時也是在3月份可以去呈現 是不是"},{"start":205.004,"end":209.728,"text":"3月份就可以量產了3月份就對啊就是可以呈現嘛可以量產呈現是不是部長這個在這邊啊因為國人都非常的關心剛剛特別跟你討論的這個部分也就是我們也生怕如果到時候斷鏈的時候要怎麼辦"},{"start":221.917,"end":223.738,"text":"那我們支持我們的這個MIT這是全國全力的支持所以剛剛軍備局局長所做的報告是在3月份可以量產出來你所增加的這個產線"},{"start":238.046,"end":260.838,"text":"剛剛提到的5.56的那個部分是3月然後其他的部分到9月那這是清兵器的部分那我們其實還有還有飛彈的部分然後還有無人機的部分那請說明一下因為國人非常的關心8月的部分是什麼呢讓國人放心也知道我們MIT是可以的是不是請中科院說明一下"},{"start":262.118,"end":284.003,"text":"8月份的時候 請說說明 我們可以量產出什麼樣的產品飛彈的部分是由中科院來負責生產 跟委員報告大概一個數量就是從111年海空戰力提升特別預算一直執行到現在我們的飛彈產能增加了2.63倍這是整個精準飛彈的部分"},{"start":285.481,"end":309.885,"text":"其實我們的飛彈設定並不是像委員講的就是說我們是以平時訓練或是概括數字作為規劃的現在請你說明清楚在敵人渡海作戰的時候我們以台灣海峽為一個天線的話在敵人渡海作戰的時候我們要把他的登陸部隊消耗到50%以上作為我們一個庫儲的標的和目標所以在剛剛你所說明的當中這個是可以達到的"},{"start":310.782,"end":328.318,"text":"目前我們的庫儲標的是以這個作為目標以這個作為目標 讓國人清楚 請大家放心但是你沒回答本席剛剛所說的剛剛部長說的在八月份的時候哪一個 軍備局請你做說明 剛剛委員回報九月份是7.6那到底是八月份還是九月份 九月份因為剛剛部長是說八月份我說九月 部長說九月 你說八月沒關係 就是我們要聽清楚這個就是我們 應該是我講錯"},{"start":336.745,"end":345.39,"text":"9月份恢復7.6290公里手槍彈7.62的那個部機槍彈還有武林機槍彈都是在9月份可以量產好那部長剛剛我們所做的5分鐘的討論很清楚的我們不是以平常訓練的這個概括數字來定奪是不是"},{"start":360.441,"end":363.122,"text":"對 我們現在要提高我們的戰備存量是 一定要讓國人 他就放心第二個 也就是MIT的部分我們國人 我相信不分藍綠白的委員絕對會全力的支持 是不是對 像剛剛我提到的剛剛除了清兵器彈藥 飛彈"},{"start":378.749,"end":406.034,"text":"那我們還有一個像無人機所以我們無人機無人機誰負責是會說明一下因為這個現在大家都很關心它的耗材量也非常的大無人機現在就是我們要把這個量能給開出來國防部作為最大的需求者所以就是要在115年 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沒關係啦可能他老婆老公一年都給他一萬塊都沒問題嘛所以川普總統這一千塊"},{"start":153.576,"end":170.942,"text":"對於一個六四家庭連欠錢都有困難只有他有一個一千塊派對後面的老闆老婦有辦法每年欠錢嗎這不知道對於後面的人來說你沒有發一千塊川普你沒有發一千塊我也是每天每年都給你放一萬塊美金對不對一千塊對於一萬塊來說未來十八年人家十八萬人家一千塊所以川普這個政策看起來是對"},{"start":178.564,"end":198.141,"text":"普通的美国人的家庭尤其是没有厨师的家庭有个高的厨师嘛你知不知道现在在野党的版本是什么 往下看蓝白的未来账户是年给12年我看到一下嘛 他的第六条试用对象只要出生未满12岁是不是免年给啊"},{"start":199.517,"end":216.895,"text":"他們是 他的版本是說每年都還要加一萬進去每年還要再加一萬喔有沒有要求他們的父母要加沒有嘛 對所以說白色的午餐最香嘛那建物開請就好了嘛這當然要是我是弱勢家庭我也歡迎啦但是有個問題"},{"start":218.476,"end":225.663,"text":"你們有沒有算過 你們算過嗎 差不多隆重要開多少報告委員 我們這樣算算的 可能第一年就要開多少這樣總共的方案4030啦 4000控30億第一年就要開多少 隆重12年 隆重要開4000多億4000億 12年4000億 看起來跟"},{"start":241.798,"end":269.725,"text":"在野黨堅持的年改增加的國家負債好像又是一筆反年改倒退的一個負擔耶今天我是主計總署他們就不用了我們都知道這個錢國家的錢那有人說這個會不會排擠到現在預算我很懷疑未來12年國家總共要支付4000多億跟我們的年金改革未來10年未來每年要付3600億哇 這筆錢很大有人覺得中華民國國庫很有錢繼續花來往下看"},{"start":270.796,"end":291.719,"text":"好 那民眾怎麼看呢民眾認為說 這個投票的結果多數的民眾 6成5是反對有部分民眾是保留 他說金額要小不能亂花錢有條件贊成只應照顧弱勢請問你覺得這兩點你支不支持金額要小不要亂花錢有條件贊成限於弱勢家庭"},{"start":293.959,"end":320.824,"text":"反對的我們不講啦 有人都反對說政府亂花錢啊資源有限啊 財政負擔啊 政策好聽啊 效果有限啊對於沒有小孩或小孩長大下來不公平啊 這就不看了對於說金額要適度要照顧弱勢家庭 你支持嗎包委員 這個其實也是卓院長在元旦他有一個政策說明其中有很重要的事實上就是要擴大我們現在目前但是要弱勢優先弱勢優先 好 那我們現在看啦"},{"start":321.784,"end":345.754,"text":"所以說我們覺得在野黨在幫助有錢人的世代財富傳承你看看根據這個第12條跟13條未來中的特別條例他這個開戶是在怎樣開戶人或他的法定代理人最近親屬他要存好啦其實富裕家庭的人他本來就會存如果是弱智家庭的可能沒有辦法存所以如果"},{"start":346.584,"end":372.523,"text":"弱勢家庭的都只是靠政府存他的福利效果有限有錢家庭的他利上加利等於是政府幫他住很大的一臂之力這樣子在我們的國家的一個社會公平正義來講這會不會是一種所得的逆分配啊包圍這可能複製現有的這個階級的還有家庭複製現有的階級差異因為等於是什麼呢我們看來下一張等於是窮人家"},{"start":373.644,"end":385.808,"text":"今日的麵包成為富二代的未來金幣啊我們把這第一年的一千多億未來的十一年還加上三千多億這些都是用當年度政府的預算納稅人繳的稅嘛沒錯"},{"start":388.062,"end":408.735,"text":"納稅人我知道目前有56%的人要繳薪資所得稅其他的人44%所得未達這個程度那現在這些沒有繳稅的經濟能力未達繳稅額度的是不是就是我們衛務部你們要去關注的對象要把大家繳來的錢有能力繳稅的56%的人他繳了稅"},{"start":411.216,"end":435.502,"text":"讓我們政府來照顧這沒有能力角色的44%這是衛福部的事情沒錯 所以我們市部長說資源要用在刀口上是 好但是如果我們現在為了這個未來帳戶12年拿了4000億每年等於是你第一年1000億 每年要拿300億出來預算要編在哪裡編在衛福部名下衛福部有辦法漲出每年多300億嗎"},{"start":438.303,"end":461.234,"text":"還是說我們的錢還是從納稅人的錢來所以納稅人繳來的錢本來叫衛福部要照顧弱勢的現在在幫誰的忙幫那些富家庭的二代放他18歲以後的明日金幣啊對沒錯我先問一下你知道目前因為我在財政委員會今天實戰聯席啊我們都知道保險業者最喜歡做什麼業務"},{"start":462.645,"end":479.26,"text":"高資產客戶用保單來做什麼財富傳承因為保險的受益人保險的保費繳那麼多高額保費受益人當被保險人頑固的時候受益人他的那個保險的幾戶要不要課稅"},{"start":481.499,"end":510.411,"text":"不用課稅不用課稅那現在你這樣的一個版本就當於有錢家庭的人他放到這個帳戶的錢未來他小孩用的時候要不要課稅這個不知道啦那宋署長一點點時間趕快你講一下這樣到底有沒有對富家庭來講節稅的效果我要是買保單傳承財富我可以免於被課稅那這個呢這個衛福部的麵包牛奶貧困家庭的這個錢拿來給藍白板的未來家庭"},{"start":510.971,"end":539.153,"text":"他們父母啊 你每年存那麼多我存十倍下去存在帳戶的錢未來可以不用繳稅嗎如果他已經存到小孩的帳戶就變成小孩的錢了那要怎麼所以未來小孩體靈本金的部分沒有稅的問題當他產生的知習是有稅的問題來 目前如果我們有錢家庭在場的有錢家庭像財富傳承財政部一年給多少的這樣的一個證語或者是幫小孩子存錢的利息的這個租稅優惠"},{"start":541.007,"end":558.015,"text":"如果是正宇的話每年是244萬以現在的額度244萬我每年要想辦法挪244萬給我兒子在他未成年之前我想都有困難那這244萬是不用稅啦是不用課金一歲好 所以來 部長請你上台啦"},{"start":559.478,"end":572.587,"text":"總究你要來做個Ending我請了次長 請了署長那請問一下那麼川普的賬戶給其他國家一個參考有沒有其他國家曾經做過類似的事情"},{"start":573.949,"end":590.024,"text":"据了解的话在英国也做过类似更早做过英国做过类似更早那英国有继续做吗没有了没有没有办法在财务上永续没有办法在财务上永续所以我们规节我们对于"},{"start":591.385,"end":612.007,"text":"仿造川普帳戶這樣的一個操作業到台灣之後變成是一個每年都要給父母也不見得要給然後造成的是一個逆所得的逆分配造成還是國家的財政負擔還造成了會排擠到衛福部其他照顧弱勢家庭你們現在有在照顧弱勢家庭的類似這樣的政策嗎"},{"start":612.708,"end":629.177,"text":"有多少人受益这个受益目标是应该6万人左右目前有多少万人目前是近4万3万9千多人很好所以如果我们要照顾这些弱势家庭的孩子目标6万我们的卫护部一年要放多少钱进去"},{"start":630.633,"end":655.534,"text":"因為這個目前開戶的最高我們一年對波是一萬五所以目前的預算投入大概多少了幾億啊 一萬五大概簡單講 已經投入都好了六億左右投了六億了對 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我想請問一下金管會有沒有看過國民黨跟民眾黨共提的台灣未來帳戶特別條例草案你們有實際看過嗎那是不是可以麻煩你說說看我們提的台灣未來帳戶的特別條例草案跟你們拿出來偷換的TISA的這個部分在政策上有什麼不同的地方大概"},{"start":53.533,"end":76.725,"text":"委員的版本是要委託那個勞金局勞動部這邊來金管這個帳戶那金管會的部分是就我們目前已經推動的TESA的這個帳戶有個投資帳戶的一個運作情形如果未來這個帳戶這個兒少帳戶你們的這個版本有沒有放一塊錢政府有沒有替孩子存一塊錢在裡面"},{"start":78.111,"end":104.381,"text":"因為應該是說前端有這個帳戶出來以後是不是要結合投資那如果在結合投資的時候這樣怎麼可以拿出來跟未來帳戶對比呢我們沒有說要跟未來帳戶對比可是我們總統拿這個來回應不是嗎應該是說我們TESA帳戶是未來如果這個帳戶要做相關的投資的話是不是可以運用我們TESA帳戶做一個協助"},{"start":105.194,"end":114.392,"text":"所以你們也是希望用這個來替代嗎應該是說我們配合整個國家的政策看是有沒有需要金管會這個TESA賬戶來協助的部分"},{"start":114.898,"end":137.555,"text":"因為我看到這個結論就是我們目前政府是選擇不由國家來投資下一代而是把風險跟責任又把它留給我們年輕的家庭讓他自己承擔對不對應該是說政策上是怎麼樣讓這個帳戶成立後端要不要結合投資這樣子但是政策應該還是由我先請我們時務長來一下請時務長"},{"start":145.141,"end":152.37,"text":"第一個問題我想請教就剛剛一樣的問題就是你們有看過我們國民黨跟民眾黨提的特別條例的草案嗎"},{"start":153.151,"end":171.529,"text":"因為時間比較短我們大概內部稍微討論了一下但是還沒有很詳細的對 因為裡面有些不是我們本來的領域對 因為我看到你們這份報告書的這個書面報告書裡面都說在107年的兒童及少年未來教育與發展賬戶條例跟從107年開始的少子"},{"start":174.992,"end":186.626,"text":"少子女化對策計畫那你們今天拿兩個說明當成報告內容來回應未來帳戶的特別條例草案我有點意外因為這兩個是這三個是不同的東西吧"},{"start":188.24,"end":203.731,"text":"應該是這麼說因為在這個條例今天的草案的條例的第一條立法的目的裡面呢他就開宗明義就寫了為了兩件事情一個是少子女化一個是要世代貧富的消米問題所以我們才會針對為了要達到這兩個"},{"start":206.213,"end":230.136,"text":"這個立法的目的其實目前行政單位的相對應的做法就是剛剛提到的少子女化行動對策以及這個所謂兒少的教育及發展未來107年那一套這個條例照顧的是弱勢家庭對吧他不是跟少子女化這個部分沒有關係吧沒有關係那為什麼會拿出來勒"},{"start":230.717,"end":256.645,"text":"因為今天這個條例的第一條的立法說明就寫了是為了要解決少子女化以及消米這個跨世代的貧富落差問題你那個照顧弱勢我看到也沒有幫到弱勢家庭很多啊就是他們家長出一塊國家出一塊嘛對啊他就已經很辛苦了還要叫他存他怎麼拿得出來"},{"start":257.025,"end":280.28,"text":"不過我們現在做了這個8年也有一些成果啦那麼我們也會來現在也在檢討要不要再做得更積極一點我們政策推動之後我們還是相關單位還是要去做這個滾動的檢討來做調整我希望這個錢要花在刀口上我們就是希望把這個錢花在刀口上"},{"start":280.58,"end":303.859,"text":"那100 少子女化的對策計畫我看107年到114年花了5931億元那主要是不是集中用在6歲以下兒童的育兒津貼托育跟幼教補助這種即時性的補助對 84%都用在0到6歲這個國家跟你一起養的這些策略上你接下來這個2.0計畫115年到118年我們又編了4250億對吧"},{"start":310.787,"end":316.743,"text":"對 那還是 我看這個做法還是跟過去的做法差不多嘛也都是用在以前60以下對不對"},{"start":318.056,"end":340.482,"text":"六歲這邊的這個就是國家跟你一起養的這邊還是會持續的擴大那另外一個就是希望在另外的這個教育還有這個住宅政策還有新手爸媽的寫手還有兒童的照顧的部分能夠再強化對那我看到這個部分花了那麼多錢我們的成效是什麼"},{"start":341.753,"end":355.49,"text":"這個就如恐剛剛我也有提到我們檢視這些作為好像也沒有一項是不應該做好像也都應該做那只不過是力道夠不夠要不要再講話我看到我們每年出生的人口數"},{"start":356.812,"end":379.3,"text":"同一段時間啦當時卻從大概是18萬人一路下降到10萬零7千人啦這個越做人越少不應該檢討嗎對不對 就表示說我們今天提的我們國民黨跟民眾黨提的這個法案是因為針對這個少子化的部分這已經是國安層級的問題嘛對不對 我們希望加大力度也就是說把它調整到"},{"start":381.061,"end":395.394,"text":"到18歲國家養不是國家養 說他出社會之後他有一筆那個是未來的他的資金啦對啊 所以我們在提這個您的看法部長有覺得這個需要嗎"},{"start":395.936,"end":424.812,"text":"就是我們現在在思考的是說如果現在我們在0到6歲這一段時間是要減輕育兒家庭的經濟負擔為主一個小孩子從出生到大學要花600萬到1000萬所以我們在做這個部分我認為政府現在年輕人不敢生的原因是因為現在養一個孩子要花那麼大的成本這個才是國家的重大問題要有人我們國家才有希望這樣人一直越來越少那以後台灣怎麼辦"},{"start":425.652,"end":450.831,"text":"對 所以我們現在目前的這個少子女對策大概在0到6歲投注的一個孩子大概是120到180萬的補助我認為這個也應該可以再更高一點來減輕這個這些育兒家庭的經濟負擔這個是應該優先來思考我們提出的條例是不會排擠也不會影響到0到6歲的這個既有的經費"},{"start":454.793,"end":467.981,"text":"這個我應該這樣講就是我們提到國防預算這個一照2500億我們政府連眼睛都不眨一下為什麼要照顧這個我們的小孩子要鼓勵我們的生育我們這麼多的問題呢這不應該討論嗎這不是更嚴重嗎"},{"start":473.396,"end":488.19,"text":"所以我贊成我們來討論那麼剛剛幾位委員也提到那麼以公聽會的方式也很好那麼讓各種的我們既有的政策再來做檢視力度要再加深的地方回去我希望部長您"},{"start":488.951,"end":511.745,"text":"以你的專業然後向我們相關行政院來反映一下當然他們現在一定會擋一定會多擋又會排擠到消音什麼的啦那又搞不好又牽扯到什麼總預算沒過那也希望部長回去跟院長講一下他說我們的挑三檢四嘛那我們也希望我們的這個這個什麼這個"},{"start":515.587,"end":526,"text":"行政院在編預算的時候不要編的七零八落 好不好我們把政策在全盤的再檢視一下好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員好 謝謝邱政軍委員發言"}]}},{"id":"167044","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167044","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0d3a2a2744539e410b4bfe832d32782da7fca8e6801c49bdd444a855be115db145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:09:49 - 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他參加勞保他根據勞退條例有僱主提撥6%這你應該了解他也可以自提而且這是複利計算"},{"start":155.606,"end":178.086,"text":"他如果退伍了他結甲歸田他擔任農民我們上週才通過了農民退休儲金條例我們過去農民退休儲金必須你有參加農保但是我們短一期的志願役士官兵他有從農但因為他領了退伍金他不能適用老農津貼他有時候也不去加農保"},{"start":179.207,"end":192.087,"text":"但是我們上星期我們改了我們讓他可以加入農退農退是什麼假設說基本工資三萬你可以每個月存三千政府幫你補三千未來更好"},{"start":193.311,"end":216.811,"text":"過去是1比1現在是1比1.5政府出6成你出4成這是我們第二類農民他退伍結甲歸天后他可以選擇勞工他可以選擇農民都是從他退伍後才開始但是呢我們目前的陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例的23條你只要3年以上未滿20年折抵現在年資只給退伍金部長你了解嗎"},{"start":218.823,"end":241.216,"text":"好 聰明了解好 那我們要來個提議來 我們往下看如果說我們給這些短一期的志願式官兵也類似樣的勞退或者是說農民退休儲金政府幫他提繳一部分譬如說現在勞退是提6%勞工自己也可以提提1%到6%但是有八成以上勞工都沒有提大部分都靠政府提"},{"start":242.146,"end":269.06,"text":"這些錢 目前勞退資金你知道年化報酬率多少嗎上個月的新聞 年底的新聞我們平均每位勞退基金啊賺了五萬多啊一直成長喔那如果說我們今天我們國防部推行的這個政策把他放在TISA裡面他退伍之後 他如果去勞工他可以把他帶進勞退的專戶他如果從農 他可以進入了農退的專戶部長 這樣你了解吧"},{"start":270.646,"end":295.347,"text":"增加我們短義騎士官兵他退伍後的轉業保障您同意嗎您的意思是他在服役的期間對 他在服役的期間我們國防部就幫他比照參考類似勞退或農退的方式幫他提一筆錢他退伍後他才能帶走但是不是退伍金的概念退伍金是一次給這個是放在帳戶裡面我下面講給你聽來 你看看我幫你試算了"},{"start":296.167,"end":318.988,"text":"來下一頁假如說短期刺官兵我們目前以下的平均月薪大概是四萬三五年以上的平均是四萬五啦我是抓個平均啦如果我們政府提繳他在第一二年我們幫他提十趴三四年十二點五十五十七點五二十一此類推大概我們政府啊對他的比他的薪資的比例呢第一年要幫他存十萬三"},{"start":320.049,"end":347.239,"text":"三四你要幫他存 累積到232萬到了第五六年 七八年 最後十年內我們幫這樣的一個短一期志願役士官兵幫他存了71萬多但是這些錢在這十年當中根據我們的年化報酬率累積負利區計算他大概可以領回106萬請問藍市長106萬有沒有對於這些十年退伍的志願役士官兵第二類的農民有沒有比他們退伍金多"},{"start":348.959,"end":366.274,"text":"市長有沒有 你知道嗎旁邊有一位是哪一位直接說有沒有比較多有比較多多很多嘛報委員 其實我們除了一筆退伍金以外其實軍保的部分也有一筆的給付對 都是一致性的對 然後軍保的給付目前官兵致富額是35%然後國家負擔是65%軍保保哪些項目"},{"start":372.15,"end":390.763,"text":"保傷殘嘛很多項目嘛但是你知道嗎農退跟勞退只有保什麼退休的準備 你了解嗎所以勞保有沒有你說的也有農保也有所以我在講的是我講的不是保險我講的是職業保障所以部長你回去一下指示你們的幕僚研究一下"},{"start":391.443,"end":407.135,"text":"如果說今天我們國家要提升這些基層的志願役短期的士官兵他未來人生第二春他的準備除了前面的六項輔導之外請您評估一下這樣子如果以他十年來說政務投入的金額是71萬"},{"start":409.396,"end":429.202,"text":"71萬但是他可以領出來的因為有了TISA的複利他可以領出106萬這對我們團體的志願士官兵他的退伍後除了一次性的退伍金之外他不管轉從勞工 轉從農業他都可以持續的把這樣的一個對自己的職業保障帶進去部長 你了解了"},{"start":430.305,"end":448.34,"text":"我了解但是我想這個部分涉及到要看起來是一個新的制度那涉及到政府要提繳一定的比例這個部分應該不是國防部單純本身可以決定的我在財政委員會我很樂意協助"},{"start":448.9,"end":469.975,"text":"因為目前我們在國家的財政在我們家金管這個TISA這個事情是對全民來講的一個全民國民儲蓄在日本叫NISA在台灣叫TISA最後的結論因為時間到了我說結論請你評估指示呢另設短疫期士官兵提繳賬戶政府疫情年資逐年提高提交比例"},{"start":470.936,"end":481.274,"text":"其可自行提繳同等比例該帳戶基金投入TESA複利累積其退伍時可全額轉入勞退或農退帳戶的可行性一個月內提出書面報告 可以嗎"},{"start":482.55,"end":504.875,"text":"不過你那個投入TESA累積負力這件事情如果TESA它再去做這個整個投資的運用還是要看這個投資的一個還是有一定的當然它有一定的風險反正投資必有風險這沒有錯但是這幾年來我們覺得因為直接講一個負力好像這個一定可以負力它本來就是負力但是它當然會有"},{"start":506.615,"end":533.03,"text":"贏虧啦 會有損益這個請你們評估因為目前國家在推 金管會在推賴總統也支持 行政院也支持是不是為了提升我們短期志願役士官兵他們在第二春人生的時候除了退伍金目前既有的軍保的退伍金之外他可以有一個累計類似勞退或農退的方式他未來轉到農民 轉到勞工這一筆的退休保障會跟著他的人生走 好不好"},{"start":534.441,"end":542.011,"text":"這個我們要跟香港部會來進行但是你們先進行評估其他部會這個我都會設法來解決好不好好 我們來評估 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我們請陸委會梁副主委"},{"start":22.313,"end":40.432,"text":"委員好我們想請問一下上個禮拜中國國台辦再次擴大了所謂這個台獨頑固分子的清單又有更多人被列名其上那可不可以在這裡再一次的跟您請教這到底中國為什麼要列名這樣子的一個名單"},{"start":44.383,"end":55.55,"text":"他當然最大的目的就是要製造台灣內部的寒戰效應那他實際上也在針對一些他所"},{"start":57.914,"end":83.668,"text":"類型化 他要把它類型化譬如說政治人物是一個類型現在增加了這個部會首長然後來增加司法官這個類型是 沒錯 司法人員司法人員這個類型他們特別在意的就是有沒有偵辦國安案件那也不是所有偵辦國安案件的檢察官都會列入而是針對某一些他們特別重視的案件"},{"start":84.828,"end":113.265,"text":"所以目前看到是這樣子那你覺得效果如何目前看不到效果但是我必須跟委員報告就是說像他們這樣用一個國家的力量然後去宣布要制裁或是追溯個別的人士個別的人士那我想對於當事人來講可能心理上面都會有一些負擔那這也是他們想要得到的"},{"start":114.942,"end":122.151,"text":"兩副回答得很清楚喔也一下就掌握到我今天特別在這個質詢台上想要跟國人社會再一次強調的確實這個台獨頑固分子這樣子用來恫嚇台灣人民的這個名單喔現在甚至已經擴大到司法人員這是第二次把我國的司法官列名其上"},{"start":133.604,"end":147.83,"text":"那司法官本身我相信他們不足以心生畏懼一定持續秉公辦案但是會不會發生其他的效果會不會有更多的這個狀況大家可以看到中國的手確實是越伸越長甚至到司法體系來了"},{"start":148.61,"end":174.379,"text":"所以我覺得其實我們在各種法治的面向上確實應該要來防治中國這樣各種勢力的滲透中國各種勢力的進入這是今天我藉著這個上個週末比較少人注意到的連司法人員都再次被列明所謂台獨頑固分子清單再次跟國人提出沉重沉重的呼籲大家應該要注意這樣的事情"},{"start":175.299,"end":198.127,"text":"好 那回到我們今天的修法來看的話那其實啊 藍波我想請問一下其實反滲透法上路到現在已經是六年多了可是因為反滲透法它其實主要的目的是在禁止台灣民眾接受中國等境外敵對勢力的指示委託或資助並且一二三四五"},{"start":198.547,"end":218.197,"text":"列明的很清楚只有目前在目前的法規裡面現行法裡面只有五種類型所以上路六年到現在你覺得我們現在的成效如何甚至本月也有委員直接說啊從民國一百一十二年到一百一十四年啊這麼長的期間啊八成以上的都其實是不起訴啊可見這部法沒什麼用處吧那您認為呢這部法到底還不應該存在還是我們要怎麼面對它"},{"start":228.82,"end":248.227,"text":"我不會認為這部法沒有作用啦那有的時候起訴但是判決無罪並不代表真的無罪所謂判決無罪只是說你沒有辦法證明他有符合法條規定的罪證而已"},{"start":249.093,"end":262.745,"text":"那現在的我覺得反滲透法主要它的問題出在兩個第一個它所規定的要件是非常的特定"},{"start":264.366,"end":288.333,"text":"就只有五種而已啊對 非常特定譬如說剛剛黃捷委員所提出來他針對選罷法的選罷法的部分那就是針對說你已經登記參選了是然後我如果在你已經登記參選以後然後我捐錢給你或者什麼用資金資助你那個才算但是還沒登記參選之前不算那就算黃捷委員的所講的你參選人是過了"},{"start":289.053,"end":307.941,"text":"但他還是可以再早一步再更早就把就把資金到位所以現在問題就是說反滲透法他所規定的東西就是說中共的手法他永遠是比我們快我們今天不管定了什麼樣的規定他都可以從我們的規定之中找到漏洞"},{"start":308.641,"end":332.852,"text":"去處理所以這個是第一個問題那第二個問題就是說反送中法所規定的這些罪行這些罪行其實在我們看來是遠遠不夠的因為反送中法其實它主要規定的是這些政治活動競選然後它有關社會秩序的部分它就是它是屬於所謂聚眾鬥毆或是"},{"start":334.833,"end":347.119,"text":"恐嚇公眾等等但是我們現在看到的很多那個滲透的類型他是叫你去製造謠言他是叫你去打人或是去潑妻"},{"start":348.87,"end":366.25,"text":"不只啊甚至是可以說對於我們的物價產生波動這種訊息也可以啊或者是在救災防治的時候擴大我們的災害降低政府應變的策略等等製造對政府的不信任這種都是啊所以今天委員所提出來的各種各項的罪行"},{"start":367.071,"end":394.706,"text":"我認為都是從這陸委會的立場來講我們都是樂觀其成但是我還是要必須提醒大家今天不管任何一個因為我們的罪行的列舉是有限罪行的列舉是有限但是中共可以叫這個他在地協力者或他的滲透的對象所去做的事情是無限的他今天如果是去對於某一個人物他要叫人去剖欺"},{"start":395.889,"end":421.885,"text":"他去剖欺可是這個東西在我們刑法裡面剖欺甚至不算是什麼罪那但是他會造成這樣心理恐懼所以我覺得反滲透法的這個主要的問題不是在於這個法律有用或沒有用而是基於我剛剛所講的一些問題他會無法跟得上中共翻新的腳步"},{"start":422.785,"end":446.825,"text":"那還有一個最重要的問題是我們常常在法院在判的時候他都必須要去證明說你是受到對面的指示才來做這些事可是你往往那些指示的範圍或是對象是曖昧不明的那個曖昧不明就是說他是某某公司的負責人或是什麼單位或是如何他說他不是不屬於中共黨政軍這樣"},{"start":448.286,"end":474.808,"text":"所以我覺得反滲透法它還是有用但是我們要討論一下怎麼樣把它完善副主委因為我覺得你這段話非常的完整清楚又重要所以我幾乎把時間都讓給你了但是我還是覺得是這樣就是您剛剛說的話的部分我想要再做一個整理並且強調我不認為反滲透法是沒有用處的我相信您剛剛也沒有這樣說你認為是還是有用的"},{"start":475.248,"end":493.801,"text":"我覺得這一步法第一是確立我國國家的態度不容許境外等敵對勢力利用各種方法進入到我國國內破壞掉人民對政府的信任破壞社會的秩序第一個這步法是一個態度所以應該要必須要能夠完整"},{"start":494.281,"end":518.947,"text":"建構 這第一個 但第二個呢 確實包括我們剛剛在講說反省鬥法裡面 我們最大的這個目標是在確保我們的選舉行為 我們的公投行為也就是民主社會裡面非常重要的選舉公投這樣的意志 這樣的制度是可以完整的但任何有從事實務的人都知道所謂的選舉 所謂的公投 那是一個非常長時間的行為不是只有規定選舉期間的那幾天"},{"start":521.888,"end":545.224,"text":"絕對不是這樣的期間而已也不是你成為候選人以後才叫做選舉期間民主社會的選舉期是非常長的所以我們在執行了6年之後的反滲透法讓我們看到了現在這部法的困境因此我們要把這一個部分漏洞的部分給補起來所以才會有各個委員提出而且很遺憾的是喔都只有民進黨委員的版本啊"},{"start":546.505,"end":572.662,"text":"今天的使用法裡面全部都是民進黨委員提出的版本在對期間也好對身分別也好對行為類型也好我們做了一個更明確的規定這更明確並不是並不是加強對人民的控管而是把事情建構清楚讓大家能夠各司其職各守其位我想這是很清楚的事情我舉第一個例子的話就是應該是說像我們的這本提案書裡面的第一個"},{"start":574.484,"end":595.763,"text":"黃婕委員然後不是 沈伯陽 林楚茵和羅美玲委員提案我們都有共同簽署的像我自己也有簽署的就是在六之一條裡面對於剛剛謠言的部分我們就明確列舉了哪一些法條的這些行為你不應該散佈錯假訊息我想這是很清楚的事情我也希望等一下後面質詢的委員呢不要"},{"start":596.744,"end":612.014,"text":"亂了這個主題不要把這個部分我們修反滲透法又如同上一個禮拜修國安法一樣認為是在前置人民自由前置人民的行為我覺得這是完全錯誤的說法那我的時間用完了我先到這裡謝謝副主委謝謝"}]}},{"id":"167059","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167059","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce015e4fe5ea363512e8a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e90152979bf675f76cd7c0d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:11:50 - 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謝謝主席那我針對今天這個反滲透法存在的漏洞提出一個修正的提案那因為現行的反滲透法的法規對於候選人的認定是非常僵化的那導致說現行有幾個案例會讓境外勢力只要選對了時間點來佈局他們的滲透方式就可以大搖大擺的來干預我們台灣民主的選舉卻不必負擔任何的刑責"},{"start":37.549,"end":61.844,"text":"所以呢實務上我們已經看到有兩起荒謬的判決第一個是2024年大選的期間台中有一個假民調案有一個網媒的記者加上一個學者那他們受了中共指示發布了九波的總統大選的假民調但是一審的時候法院竟然認定說因為前六波發布的時間是因為候選人"},{"start":62.684,"end":79.03,"text":"還沒有完成登記所以他不算正式的候選人就不構成犯罪了然後就判定他無罪那我想要問大家請問在登記之前發布的假民調就沒有誤導選民嗎就沒有破壞民主的影響力嗎所以跟成為候選人前跟後對於實質造成民主的影響不應該用這樣一刀切的方式"},{"start":89.053,"end":106.139,"text":"那另外一個是在高雄的受資助的旅遊的造勢案那這個被告呢他收受中共的利益那為特定的候選人舉辦大規模的造勢那也招攬了里長到中國接受旅遊招待那甚至在席間他也只要求"},{"start":106.659,"end":127.47,"text":"必須要支持特定的候選人但是法院卻認定說這一些活動發生的期間也是因為對象還沒有正式成為登記的候選人所以也是被判無罪那我認為這就是一個非常明確的法律空窗期境外勢力可以利用在登記前的這段非常多長達數月的時間"},{"start":129.151,"end":148.664,"text":"提前進行這一些造勢提前進行這些抹黑的佈局那中共借選其實早就已經開始了那所以如果法律只有抓登記後的行為那反滲透法其實就是在告訴這一些境外勢力說你只要在登記之前動手台灣法律就拿你沒辦法嗎"},{"start":149.384,"end":164.549,"text":"那這樣子等於是在保障這些境外勢力提前借選的權利啊所以我認為要強化民主的防衛任性應該要提前這個候選人的資格的期限也就是我的提案裡面"},{"start":165.309,"end":187.046,"text":"只要參選人只要開設了政治獻金專戶成為你參選人之後就應該要適用這個反滲透法不能讓這個登記的日期變成是滲透行為的保護傘所以這個防線應該要往前移才能確保每一次的選舉都能在公平透明而且不受到境外勢力操弄的環境下來舉行謝謝"}]}}],"aggs":{"date":[{"value":1728259200000,"count":181},{"value":1732060800000,"count":174},{"value":1761091200000,"count":169},{"value":1729036800000,"count":167},{"value":1729728000000,"count":166},{"value":1731456000000,"count":162},{"value":1741824000000,"count":156},{"value":1760486400000,"count":156},{"value":1733356800000,"count":154},{"value":1719360000000,"count":153},{"value":1762300800000,"count":151},{"value":1718236800000,"count":149},{"value":1729641600000,"count":146},{"value":1759881600000,"count":144},{"value":1745366400000,"count":143},{"value":1748390400000,"count":141},{"value":1716940800000,"count":137},{"value":1717545600000,"count":137},{"value":1730678400000,"count":133},{"value":1760918400000,"count":133},{"value":1750204800000,"count":132},{"value":1716336000000,"count":130},{"value":1747785600000,"count":130},{"value":1743033600000,"count":129},{"value":1762992000000,"count":129},{"value":1732147200000,"count":128},{"value":1717027200000,"count":127},{"value":1764115200000,"count":127},{"value":1744761600000,"count":126},{"value":1767744000000,"count":123},{"value":1728432000000,"count":121},{"value":1731542400000,"count":120},{"value":1764720000000,"count":120},{"value":1732665600000,"count":119},{"value":1730246400000,"count":118},{"value":1744156800000,"count":118},{"value":1761696000000,"count":117},{"value":1716854400000,"count":115},{"value":1718150400000,"count":110},{"value":1727654400000,"count":110},{"value":1745452800000,"count":110},{"value":1745971200000,"count":110},{"value":1762905600000,"count":110},{"value":1733270400000,"count":109},{"value":1746662400000,"count":109},{"value":1763510400000,"count":109},{"value":1717632000000,"count":108},{"value":1729123200000,"count":107},{"value":1742169600000,"count":106},{"value":1747180800000,"count":106},{"value":1732752000000,"count":105},{"value":1729468800000,"count":102},{"value":1742342400000,"count":100},{"value":1719964800000,"count":99},{"value":1734652800000,"count":99},{"value":1742428800000,"count":98},{"value":1766534400000,"count":97},{"value":1747699200000,"count":96},{"value":1760572800000,"count":94},{"value":1744243200000,"count":93},{"value":1765324800000,"count":93},{"value":1716768000000,"count":91},{"value":1731888000000,"count":91},{"value":1763596800000,"count":91},{"value":1750809600000,"count":89},{"value":1746057600000,"count":84},{"value":1768176000000,"count":84},{"value":1721088000000,"count":83},{"value":1720656000000,"count":82},{"value":1760313600000,"count":82},{"value":1749600000000,"count":80},{"value":1716422400000,"count":79},{"value":1744848000000,"count":78},{"value":1720569600000,"count":77},{"value":1747094400000,"count":77},{"value":1749081600000,"count":76},{"value":1750291200000,"count":76},{"value":1735776000000,"count":75},{"value":1748995200000,"count":75},{"value":1756339200000,"count":71},{"value":1728864000000,"count":70},{"value":1761782400000,"count":70},{"value":1735603200000,"count":68},{"value":1743379200000,"count":68},{"value":1747353600000,"count":68},{"value":1742774400000,"count":67},{"value":1765929600000,"count":67},{"value":1717459200000,"count":65},{"value":1730937600000,"count":65},{"value":1731283200000,"count":64},{"value":1761177600000,"count":64},{"value":1735516800000,"count":63},{"value":1749513600000,"count":63},{"value":1767830400000,"count":63},{"value":1747267200000,"count":62},{"value":1747958400000,"count":62},{"value":1756252800000,"count":62},{"value":1746576000000,"count":61},{"value":1719446400000,"count":60},{"value":1742947200000,"count":58}]},"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}