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相爭的預算送到行政院但是我們送行政院的時候這個預算送行政院的時候 我們文化藝術講座及促進條例早就已經公布施行也就是說這一部分應該要依照文化藝術講座及促進條例第15條應該"},{"start":143.559,"end":170.349,"text":"依照直接工程費的1%來辦理公共藝術那這部分其實我們中油在111年1月的時候有送第三次修正計畫針對相關機關審查意見回覆的時候工程會就有明確的提醒台灣中油要按照新法來編列可是我們中油還是錯誤解讀這個法律"},{"start":170.929,"end":191.588,"text":"所以我們後來召開了三次協調會可是召開三次協調會我們中游一下子把這個依法編列的公共藝術經費從662萬一下子又改到5288萬直到今年二月我們最後只好請文化部主管單位"},{"start":192.769,"end":206.181,"text":"來解釋這個法律那他出席這個協調會之後後來文化部也在4月21號正式發函說這個外推方案的調整預算應該依照直接工程費的1%來編列公共藝術"},{"start":208.743,"end":223.813,"text":"那這邊我要跟院長來報告我們當初三接他從660億後來增加到965億也就是說這個外推方案就增加了305億後來我們4月2號那天也請中郵的黃榮譽副總他也講這個"},{"start":229.236,"end":255.57,"text":"305億是總工程費但是直接工程費也有250億所以真正增加的公共藝術的經費應該是2.5億那這部分我想說部長應該知道這個事情吧同仁有跟我講他是講說因為這個工程它是橫跨了舊法跟新法那就是說中間有一些不同的解釋"},{"start":257.162,"end":286.422,"text":"但是後來我們也確實開過三次協調會啦那最後只好請我們這個主管這個法律的文化部已經也正式發函那今天會提出最主要目的也是要拜託院長那這個部分中油其實已經拖欠了很多年其實早在111年工程會就已經提醒台灣中油要用新法來編列可是中油他說這個還沒有實施可是我們可以知道其實他在"},{"start":287.122,"end":307.515,"text":"公告的時候就已經實施所以我們這預算在送提報跟核定都是在新法之後所以這邊拜託我們院長還有部長一定要督促中遊今年一定要提報然後明年希望經濟部行政院趕快核定來送交我們立法院來審查"},{"start":309.934,"end":333.168,"text":"這個部分我想經濟部應該再跟文化部或者是工程會我們再了解跨越新舊法之間如果舊法當時並沒有編列相關這個預算那在新法實施之後他又做了一些增加那要不要有一些可以折衝的方式來算這部分其實我跟院長報告其實我們開三次協調會都已經釐清的很清楚這個完全"},{"start":334.369,"end":357.565,"text":"就是這個外推方案都是在我們新法實施之後才提報中遊才提報後來在111年才送交行政院核定所以文化部已經確定解讀這個法例絕對是適用新法沒有問題那今天當然我也希望院長部長了解之後希望也能夠盡快來督促中遊"},{"start":358.345,"end":371,"text":"今年趕快提報 明年趕快核定不然這已經延宕那麼多年這對我們地方回饋公共藝術的部分真的已經延誤了很多年希望這部分我們院長跟部長多幫忙"},{"start":372.708,"end":398.089,"text":"好的,我剛剛說請經濟部跟工程會跟我們來討論好,希望來了解清楚啦,這其實最重要的是那個生態的維護他只要做這一點才是他重要的工作這一點就是希望說,因為這個補助的費用差很多而且,居然我們提報是在新法這已經很明確那所以希望我們院長跟部長來督促中友趕快提報來實施那還有我們針對我們"},{"start":401.533,"end":422.465,"text":"能源政策的部分的問題我想請問一下院長我們在3個月16號院長有表示非核家園在去年的5月17號已經達成所以現在不排除接受新的核能技術院長有講過對不對"},{"start":423.934,"end":447.677,"text":"我們對新的核能技術一直在希望跟世界同步在研究討論將來有一點傷準的時候只要它符合到安全沒有核廢料的問題以及大家有共識接受我們都希望跟世界同步對這個方向我們也是樂觀啟程我們也是支持啦而且我們賴總統也在上個月22號他也宣布核二核三台電可以開始"},{"start":448.197,"end":475.353,"text":"重啟評估所以基本上不管是院長新的核能技術還是賴總統在3月22號針對核核酸的重啟評估所以那時候我們有講嘛2025非核家園也已經走過了那我們現在就像剛剛院長講的我們可以的話會朝向接受核能發電不管是舊技術新技術只要能夠安全之下我們都有可能用核能發電嘛對不對"},{"start":476.494,"end":504.534,"text":"我們的核能三原則還是要遵守的就是核安、核廢還有社會有共識另外現在的核三廠它必須由台電來提出再運轉計畫以及自主安全檢查縱交核安會來進行審核之後才能夠啟動所以只要在這些條件都符合之下我們是有可能啟動也要自主安全檢查的過程跟再運轉計畫都能夠合乎核安會的審核的同意"},{"start":505.214,"end":531.663,"text":"所以看起來我們能源政策其實是有機會做改變所以重點我是要詢問一下因為在上個月我們三接的二期工程在觀音有召開公聽會其實民眾反彈非常的劇烈因為又要再新做六座的除氣槽他們是非常的恐慌我今天請問部長針對觀塘液化天然氣接收站"},{"start":532.203,"end":555.872,"text":"三接他的建制背景當初他的建制背景是什麼為什麼要去做這個三接因為他要供應北部的大潭電廠的天然氣發電有這樣的需要就是也希望逐步增加燃氣的發電量燃氣增加以後你當然要有接收站然後才有辦法實施就是增加燃氣它的發電量"},{"start":558.173,"end":583.131,"text":"現在我們逐步調高燃氣的發電量那是當時我們因為我們當時的背景我們就是因為非核家園所以我們在能源配比上的部分是不是在燃氣的部分燃氣目的是要減煤我們要取代煤那因為不管怎樣你核能的話你最多核二核三也只有占百分之十"},{"start":583.251,"end":607.11,"text":"所以我們當初我們的能源配比是20%的再生能源30%的燃煤跟50%的燃氣所以我們這個三接的目的其實就是增加燃氣的發電量這樣沒有錯吧對 那煤是盡快的把它降下來因為當初的煤是接近50%現在已經降了我們希望可以降到30%所以我們看我們當初這個"},{"start":609.811,"end":632.242,"text":"在104年他有針對三接做可行性研究報告其實他最主要計畫摘要的部分就是針對三接這個投資計畫我們台灣中油配合台電因應政府確保河岸穩健檢核打造綠能低氮環境邁向非核家園的新的能源政策"},{"start":632.702,"end":656.767,"text":"所以這是當初我們這個計畫上面有寫它災藥重要的部分所以也是因應非核家園所以把燃氣的配比提高因為我們現在的儲存量是11天大家都覺得可能風險比較高希望增加到14天就是說儲存槽必須一定要有增加才有辦法可以讓這個"},{"start":657.947,"end":673.752,"text":"安全的天數往上增加所以我知道因為我們在增加六座主要還是增加它燃氣增加它的發電量所以我們那時候目標其實我們目標是希望能夠增加到24天可是我們要知道其實像14天"},{"start":675.692,"end":695.295,"text":"其實像我們這次美伊戰爭我們天然氣主要的輸出有一個國家卡達像我們這次這個燃氣我們就沒有辦法進來所以這樣子也有可能會影響我們燃氣進來會變成說我們天然氣輸入進來也有可能因為像這次美伊戰爭的影響"},{"start":696.736,"end":723.641,"text":"所以我們希望啊 既然我們的能源政策現在看起來有去做改變而且也說如果好的安全的核能技術我們有可能啟用核能市長桃園最近的這個產業發展非常非常的熱絡而且算力中心呢 主要從北部來講的話它優先也是在桃園最主要的原因就是因為桃園它的電力非常中足"},{"start":724.361,"end":750.697,"text":"他是支撐整個桃園很大很大產業發展的基礎我們也支持電一定要夠用所以只是說我們是說院長跟總統現在也都認為我們可能能源政策配比的方向可能會有所改變所以我們希望是不是能夠重新訂定能源白皮書說清楚講明白我們將來的能源配比可能會怎麼樣去做"},{"start":751.838,"end":772.733,"text":"能源的政策並沒有大改變以氣換煤這是很重要性的一個原則所以未來幾年我們會有很多的新的燃氣機組更新替代這個燃煤機組再來第三點就是剛剛部長講的我們必須增加燃氣的安全存量那這個做下來的這些目的一方是安全更重要的是要一一這樣來"},{"start":775.528,"end":793.257,"text":"讓所有各縣市的產業能夠充分的有充裕的電力能夠來運用包括桃園市在內我今天會提出其實最主要目的就是說我要讓院長跟部長知道這個三接二期我們地方反彈非常非常的劇烈而且那我們今天居然看到我們居然"},{"start":793.777,"end":811.618,"text":"新的能源政策有可能去做一些調整改變希望這個三接二期是不是可以先重新檢討或者先暫緩等到我們新的能源政策能源配比出來之後再來決定這個三接二期是不是確定要興建"},{"start":812.739,"end":836.29,"text":"我們會加強溝通 包括委員 即便是因為河山是在南部 河二如果重啟 那個也是非常之後的事情好 沒關係 希望說因為時間的問題啦桃園的產業發展真的是因為它發展的好 是因為它電力非常好好 我希望這個三接二齊的部分 希望還是對 我知道 所以我說因為我們並不是"},{"start":837.21,"end":856.74,"text":"我們電還是需要 只是說這個有機會去做調整那居然如果有新的能源方向那是不是有機會把這個三接二期因為民眾真的反彈很劇烈希望能夠先暫緩討論是不是有這個機會不需要再增加六座的電氣廠我們在提高這個電燃氣"},{"start":858.101,"end":875.684,"text":"儲量的安全這個前提底下就是讓國家的能源更安全同時不會因為提高儲量的安全增加地方的安全顧慮這一點請委員能夠支持我們一起跟當地的居民們做更多的說明希望他們能夠理解支持國家重大的這個能源政策"},{"start":876.084,"end":896.151,"text":"我希望說就是有機會檢討一下我今天要反映的重點是說如果有新的能源政策然後三接二期民眾居然反應這麼激烈如果有機會的話請院長部長了解一下三接二期是不是有機會做調整那請院長部長這部分多幫忙還有針對我們農業工廠協會這我簡單說明一下農業工廠我們在一百"},{"start":903.615,"end":917.327,"text":"在108年的時候修正109年實施6年的時間你看我們第三階段申請特定工廠有12733家到第四階段成功變更只有230家"},{"start":919.389,"end":935.827,"text":"第四個階段成功取得一般工廠的只有八家也只有萬分之六所以希望這部分院長、部長幫我們加強輔導希望能夠讓他們轉型成功我跟人報告一樣就是農地的一些工廠要合法化的"},{"start":938.536,"end":966.39,"text":"它如果屬於非低汙染的部分那屬於低汙染的部分才有建造成輔導性的可能會來進入這些部分好 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院長因為你現在沒有辦法明確的表達沒有錯你的意思就是說你不能確定因為報告員我們是"},{"start":157.481,"end":182.033,"text":"充分的資料給審議委員會委員了解說實際的狀況,最後決定還是他們好部長,沒關係院長因為其實你們經濟部次長之前也親口說如果戰爭三個月內結束,十月的電價調漲壓力比較小可是今天已經四月二十四號其實四週已經過去,離三個月的時間也只剩下不到九個禮拜布蘭特原油也衝上一百塊以上"},{"start":183.934,"end":208.062,"text":"所以停火停不住那油價到現在也還在漲那剩下九週要怎麼結束所以我覺得這三個月的這個所謂的平行宇宙的時間表真的是讓我們很擔憂啊那連川普自己都說到11月油價會維持在高檔那就算明天的戰事結束所謂的LNG的長約跟聯動的油價也有遞延的效果所以從"},{"start":209.162,"end":229.257,"text":"這個二五戰爭的前例歐洲的這個天然氣也花了整整兩年才回到一定的水平而且不是三個月所以我想這個問題是一個很結構性的問題那我也想問一下關心一下說那現在這個相關的原油有什麼樣的進展一個具體的事情請教就是這個台塑的"},{"start":229.937,"end":251.692,"text":"軍扇輪這個兩百萬桶的原油說大概五月六號到達台灣那你們當初大動作有新聞宣傳說這個可能有兩週的時間那我想要請問一下行政院有沒有掌握這批原油呢他是確定在內銷還有沒有說不能外銷這個部分想要請問一下因為畢竟他是私人公司"},{"start":251.732,"end":270.544,"text":"我請部長來說明原則性說我們對油的掌握目前安全存量比較高是沒有大問題的比較緊張是天然氣但是我們到六月之前也都沒有問題細部的規劃我想請問一下這兩百萬桶原油你們有沒有掌握因為我們現在戰爭已經一個多月了那我們原來"},{"start":271.28,"end":295.358,"text":"油品的部分我們的儲備量都有140天那也都沒有減少所以這200萬桶原油我想要請教不好意思我們有跟台塑有跟他聯絡嗎是不是以國內供應為主原則上以國內為主好那我想要另外再請教一個問題因為當初也有說過這個河母之海峽要收過路費那你們有沒有掌握這艘船它有付過路費嗎"},{"start":297.166,"end":321.144,"text":"這個我們就沒有你們不曉得你們沒有掌握我們確定就是說它進來的量可以優先使用在國內然後呢四月份五月份該進來的部分至少四月份的四條的這個原油的進來船已經都到港了所以也沒有問題那五月份也陸續會到港按照這個時程對因為我們現在看到的事情是這個原油價格"},{"start":321.704,"end":332.018,"text":"一定一路高檔次再到年底啊所以我們很擔心民眾的生活所以你們今天也提出說要計程車要補貼六千元對不對"},{"start":332.947,"end":348.317,"text":"你們今天有提出嘛可是本席想要說的事情是我們不反對但是現在的這個所有的不管是油價、瓦斯器、民生全部都在漲那我想要請問一下那一樣的用油的外送員物流業、小貨車業一樣繳電費的攤商、夜市家庭"},{"start":352.139,"end":372.253,"text":"我覺得這個是全面性的衝擊啊所以本席想要建議行政院的應變應該是一個全方位的包含這些中產甚至弱勢邊緣戶受衝擊的產業跟家庭都要接得住不是單就部分的職業我們應該是全方位的一個這個預算去支持他們"},{"start":372.853,"end":391.286,"text":"所以我想要問一下因為今天早上我也看到新聞行政院也有發言人也有說中央政府要推出民生物價的平穩措施整體的裁員上在盤整將事實對外說明想要請問一下什麼時候然後你們盤整大概是什麼方向請院長回答"},{"start":392.299,"end":408.117,"text":"就是針對各部會目前所受到的產業的衝擊正在做更細部的規劃那麼昨天提出的是我們對一些大宗運輸的事業首先來做一些補貼因為它的價錢是不能浮動的"},{"start":408.698,"end":437.401,"text":"所以他的支出負擔重了就是產業所以有沒有時程表不好意思院長你們大概有沒有什麼時程表你說各個部會去盤點那盤點到什麼時候主計處主計這個主計長也有說這個這次的能源衝擊大約說衝擊需要1300億那想要請問一下這個盤點這算是盤點完的價格嗎金額嗎還是不是那是各部會送出來的一個出估那我們還要看各部會之間的一個橫向的一個協調有些可能可以互相的支援"},{"start":437.921,"end":456.572,"text":"那什麼時間呢我認為最好的時間就是我們評估完之後能不能用現在的公務預算或是現在先行之前的那個特別預算來用如果我們必須再追加預算的話那必須就是在大院審查預算結束之後"},{"start":457.432,"end":473.614,"text":"再提出是合理如果還沒有審查完我們提出大院也能夠接受那我們也可以把事實的計算之後來提出最佳因素這本席就是要告訴你說這個時間要快一般的民眾現在真的是等不起現在就在漲民眾是等不起那我也請"},{"start":474.375,"end":496.753,"text":"大約那個審查預算的速度快一點因為你剛剛有說到還有其他特別預算那你還要盤點嘛所以你們盤點的速度然後以及到時候提出的方案也請盡速提出來好不好我們都來加快那另外我想要進一步來問一下我們國家的這個新十大的AI建設我想要"},{"start":498.164,"end":525.506,"text":"我拜讀過你們的新十大建設的核定本那四年1900億裡面有所謂的智慧交通、智慧防災、智慧觀光、智慧醫療也都在裡面那昨天呢4月23號速發部的資安署認定說這個高德地圖是危害國家資通安全的產品所以公務機關跟國軍都已經禁用那民用層級的部分你們是呼籲說民眾不要下載你們說5月才可以公布完整的資安評測"},{"start":526.727,"end":541.078,"text":"那在這個不管是圖資或者是國安的考量上我們是尊重行政院的立場但是站在民眾的立場上面你們呼籲民眾不要用我想是沒有用的因為關鍵是你有沒有辦法有一個更好用的APP"},{"start":541.818,"end":544.2,"text":"我現在我就用Google 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憲政僵局就連最基本的守憲守法公佈法律的憲政義務你們都做不到滿腦子就是對付在野黨刻薄非律選民 刻薄非律縣市激化仇恨情緒本席根本不相信你們會改邪歸正"},{"start":251.616,"end":263.861,"text":"我們韓院長是慈悲為懷願意給你們機會但是本行身為法律人我不會接受這種踐踏但以民主破壞權力分立藐視國會的行政院院長"},{"start":265.134,"end":289.434,"text":"因此在卓中泰完成依法一憲的憲政法律義務之前也就是要附屬法律編列軍人家籍預算還有提名NCC委員等這些人事案之前本席根本不屑與這種失位素餐只會耍嘴皮強詞奪理的行政院院長進行對話詢答違法違憲不適任的院長不配上台接受備詢"},{"start":290.956,"end":304.901,"text":"所以耳後的質詢本席就只會請教這個專業的主管部會的首長好那麼接下來本席要請教首先要先請教這個工部長經濟部長工部長"},{"start":307.159,"end":333.197,"text":"台湾在今年这一二月分别跟美国的商务部和贸易代表总署完成签署台美投资备忘物MOU还有对等关税贸易协定ART那赖政府宣称说这次的台美对等贸易协定谈得很好这是对台湾带来莫大的利益是挥出成功的拳雷打"},{"start":334.858,"end":363.592,"text":"可是事实上本席在ART签署公布后的第一个时间里面我就想读了这整份ART的协议文件文本我当时就发现这项协定哪是什么对等谈判从头到尾就是份不平等的条约美国高度的介入和干预我国的贸易关税治理主权甚至还要求我们要放弃原有更严格的商品检验标准"},{"start":365.138,"end":374.729,"text":"幾乎就是以美國的標準為標準本席不客氣的說這份關稅貿易協定 ART根本就是個上全入國的貿易協定"},{"start":376.249,"end":403.71,"text":"上个月美国贸易代表署公布了2026年的贸易障碍报告他们列举了台美有多项的贸易障碍以及台湾在贸易协议所做的承诺那么其中特别是大幅放宽美国进口商品的检验和这个检疫标准当然也还有就是说未来对美国的农产品这个就不再对美国的农产品依WTO的规定科证关税"},{"start":405.151,"end":426.738,"text":"那這些事情其實引起了輿論嘩然因為從這時候開始大家才知道說發現從馬鈴薯發芽馬鈴薯的事件發現呢原來台美的對等貿易協定對台灣而言果真是一份喪權入國放棄國家監管權利而且習近平說台灣經濟權益的習近平我沒有請教您陳部長"},{"start":435.103,"end":443.663,"text":"原来所谓的全壘打是让美国集出全壘打而对台湾则是全面失守让利太多几乎是全面让步了"},{"start":444.758,"end":468.291,"text":"那麼當然除了ART之外國人也非常關心的就是台美投資MOU的內容一直想要清楚了解到底台美雙向投資計畫有些什麼項目有沒有像賴清德總統說的那麼美好所以呢在此本席想要請教就是說為什麼現在我們都還沒有看到MOU的完整內容不知道這個有沒有公布"},{"start":469.827,"end":487.582,"text":"有關於MOU的部分現在台美之間實質上的貿易狀況我們現在是全世界最大的順差國對美國來講我現在要請教您的是當時在1月份跟美國商務所所簽訂的這份MOU已經公布了嗎"},{"start":489.344,"end":513.192,"text":"還沒有所以我們台灣為什麼到現在沒有公布Faceship公布了就是那個Faceship就是等於是簡易啦說明只有簡易才公布那其他的東西都沒有公布我們的MOU我們簽了兩千多項MOU的這個被網路施加都沒有公布為什麼呢?是因為美國沒有完成程序嗎?美國有沒有完成內部程序?因為他要公告以後才完成程序到目前為止還沒有"},{"start":513.772,"end":531.868,"text":"做這個行政上的公告所以也就是說美國到現在也還沒有完成內部的程序我們已經談定了但是他還沒有做行政上的公告了解 謝謝部長您的說明所以美國到現在也還沒有完成MOU內部程序那麼請問ART的內部程序美國也完成了嗎"},{"start":533.997,"end":551.366,"text":"因為他的法律依據是IPA那IPA因為最高的法院說已經超出總統的職權所以他現在在重建他的法律依據那我們雙方也持續的保持聯絡希望原來談好的那個結果可以鞏固住"},{"start":551.991,"end":569.521,"text":"好所以也就是說現在因為美國最高法院宣告這個對等關稅是違憲的所以讓ART和MOU的這兩份協議到目前為止就等於說它的進度是就延宕了那甚至可能未來就停擺也可能不會現在繼續這個協定可能也不會再生效是嗎"},{"start":574.544,"end":602.688,"text":"目前來講的話就是大家還是同意說那個結果談定了以後就不要變但是那個法律中間的這個法律重建可能要一點時間好那麼簡單來說就是說現在美國方面他們也還沒有正式的完成所有MOU跟ART的相關的這個合訂的程序那當然台灣這邊的話想當然你們也不會把這個ART和MOU送到立法院來進行審查對吧"},{"start":603.328,"end":629.131,"text":"因為確定以後就會送立法院未來你們可能會重新展開新的談判嗎未來對就是說這件事情接下來如果說是他沒有通過會有沒有可能把這個ART然後重新又拿出來裡面的事情重新再拿來談判還是會基本上已經談好了那個結果是雙方都已經同意的所以現在是在法律的這個部分的基礎重建的工作不是在"},{"start":629.851,"end":655.805,"text":"不過就是我想大家國人都很關切就是說因為裡面其實有蠻多的內容是很不合理的所以我們也希望假設之後有機會重新談判的話希望我們經濟部我們農業部還是要能夠堅守台灣的這個立場我們的經濟的利益還有我們國民健康的安全的一些立場那最後對於工部長這邊我還有一個附帶的提醒就是因為你們其實一直沒有提出很清楚的產業衝擊影響評估報告"},{"start":657.566,"end":685.903,"text":"在行政院的官网上面其实写的都非常非常的简略完全没有重点也不够深入那我想国人其实是非常关心台湾跟其他国家尤其跟美国的这个对等关税贸易协定里面它可能会对于台湾产业带来什么冲击所以本席希望就是说两个部会回去之后是不是能够尽速把可能对于农业或对其他经济产业的冲击然后能够把相关资料补齐然后写得更深入的报告可以吗"},{"start":686.836,"end":710.342,"text":"八號委員因為我們當初的設想是說那等到雙方談定以後我們要送到大院那個就會完整的資料都提供給大院但是因為這個時程上有一點點拖了所以你們現在就暫時也不會補嗎那接下來本市要請教的是陳部長因為農業部最近搞出了發芽馬鈴薯之亂讓國人赫然驚覺說原來台美貿易"},{"start":710.982,"end":731.97,"text":"谈判当中民进党政府竟然出卖了国人的食安健康然后也弃守了农产品的检疫防线而令人非常的气愤那关于马铃薯发芽马铃薯的这个事情要怎么样去检验因为已经有很多讨论所以本席在这里也不会再细谈可是本席不得不说这整个行政体系对于发芽马铃薯的事情的处理"},{"start":732.61,"end":750.066,"text":"態度我覺得處理方式我覺得是荒腔走板尤其是我們的行政院長卓榮泰竟然說馬鈴薯要一個一個去檢驗這種如此荒謬很愚蠢的話竟然會說出來這讓人太沒有讓人這稱呼結舌沒有知識也有常識吧我特別跟委員說明一下"},{"start":751.588,"end":773.13,"text":"馬鈴薯是要怎麼檢驗?沒關係部長我不會再追究這件事情但是本心想要問的就是說當初修改發芽馬鈴薯檢疫標準這件事情你們當時有公告社會大眾有讓農產業、農業界知道這件事情嗎?我想我們在任何的法規的公告一定有預告在經過公告的一個程序謝謝,你們當時預告的時候是幾天?"},{"start":775.066,"end":803.072,"text":"我這個可能要查一下,我們一定有一個預告的程序在公告好,那看起來部長您不清楚,因為我去查了你們第一次當時說要修改這個檢驗標準的時間,說預告時間是60天但是呢,預告公告才剛出去,沒幾天,立刻就撤回改成只有預告14天所以你們知道嗎,你們這份檢驗標準的這個規定的預告修正程序只有14天"},{"start":804.608,"end":831.73,"text":"我想整個預告最長是60天最短可以到7天好 那你們的理由是說因為這個加牙因為這個規定的修正不會影響到農業生產環境也對於民眾的權益沒有實質的影響所以整個預告時間縮短為14天但是會對於民眾的健康沒有影響嗎是絕對沒有影響 我要跟你們報告所有的八牙"},{"start":832.29,"end":842.979,"text":"不會對我們國人的一個食安照的影響我們對於檢疫跟檢驗是沒有任何改變的如果說我們未來立法院我們認為說現在這樣的檢驗標準太低我們要恢復之前的門檻我們修法"},{"start":851.267,"end":865.316,"text":"農業部會照辦嗎我跟委員報告牙體的檢查全世界只有我們台灣在做這件事情所以其他的國家都沒有針對牙體做檢查農業部會不會照辦"},{"start":866.553,"end":885.919,"text":"我要跟委員講,我們在做檢疫一定是雙邊在做談判然後相對的本身一定要符合國際規範我們一定是符合國際規範其實不只是馬鈴薯事件,未來還會有其他的未爆彈為什麼?因為依據我們ARTD3.3條農業的專章第二項的規定裡面就講"},{"start":890.14,"end":897.096,"text":"台湾未来对美国是要移除所有会破坏互惠的不合理的食品安全检验与动植物的防疫"},{"start":898.28,"end":921.248,"text":"檢疫的障礙說的白話一點就只要是美國人不滿意的動植物的防疫管檢疫管制措施我覺得委員對這個條文解讀是錯誤的所有的檢疫的單位都是雙邊進行會商簡單來說就是凡是美國人不滿意的動植物防疫檢疫管制措施你這樣解讀是錯誤的我覺得你這樣解讀是錯誤的"},{"start":925.129,"end":950.267,"text":"我現在要講的是說接下來依照現在ART裡面的規定我們可能未來會對於像是美國禽流感疫區的進口管制會大幅鬆綁現在的進口管制的規定是如何對於來自於美國禽流感疫區的這些所有的禽流感的限定範圍"},{"start":981.599,"end":981.619,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":995.525,"end":995.866,"text":"好 謝謝好 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各位同仁 全體國民今天我們在立法院共同見證的娛樂稅法自民國31年制定以來最具時代意義的一項變革象徵著從管制思維走向鼓勵參與邁向文化 體育與民生並重的新時代"},{"start":42.426,"end":65.657,"text":"過去八十年來餘熱稅被視為是一種對奢侈消費的懲罰但在2026年的今天我們看一場職棒聽一場演唱會或者是陪家人看電影早已是民眾的剛性需求我們不應該用過時的稅制來束縛台灣蓬勃發展的軟實力"},{"start":67.538,"end":88.704,"text":"本次修法有三項的核心價值第一是還利於民刪除了電影演唱會體育競賽的娛樂稅直接減輕了民眾的負擔讓藝文跟體育走向了人民的生活第二"},{"start":90.069,"end":108.017,"text":"負稅 負權地方授權地方政府是產業需求停徵或者是得以減徵特定項目讓各縣市都能更有彈性地爭取國際巨星或是大型的賽事落腳地方第三 要擺動產業透過減稅的誘因鼓勵業者能夠回饋票價進而擴大藝文與體育產業的市場規模"},{"start":119.537,"end":137.035,"text":"今天三讀通過的不是改革的終點我們會將嚴格的監督確保這樣的減稅的紅令能夠實質的反映在票價跟消費價格上讓全民的共享到這修法的成果謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"168833","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168833","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6961fddac991000bbe0253f98e67790db5a46e9be1b9bc70b35027a592d4b119b200dc58137c671c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:42:03 - 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紐澳等國那第二個問題就是說這八萬多公噸的馬鈴薯會不會公佈"},{"start":54.577,"end":80.323,"text":"抽到這個抽驗到多少發芽的馬鈴薯那再來就是第三個未來消費者能不能知道來源跟產地就這三個問題可不可以請院長說明一下第一個我們現在馬鈴薯未來進口的方式在美方的出口的檢疫跟我方進口端的檢疫都不會變得更鬆這個檢疫毒性的標準是不變的那抽驗衛福部對這個"},{"start":81.98,"end":102.32,"text":"茄檢的這個檢疫從2%到10%這個也是不會變的那我們現在多增加的是一份說你這個整櫃當中如果你是少數的有發芽那可以再經過業者去指定業者農業部指定業者去到一個特定的一個場域加工廠裡面去就逐批逐櫃"},{"start":103.201,"end":130.316,"text":"足科用輸送帶來看它有沒有長芽長芽的就把它剔除掉就整顆的悔氣那其他的部分當然就會是健康的這個是現在未來可能有規定的未來新的一個方式進來所以是不會的那七萬顆的馬鈴薯當中大概百分之六十是先時用的加工百分之六十百分之四十那另外這些部分先時的部分完全不會有後面這一套"},{"start":131.737,"end":141.604,"text":"只有加工用的馬鈴薯會有後面這套新的程序所以還是維持百分之二到百分之十我跟委員補充一下這邊的檢測是百分之六十檢驗到了有發芽的馬鈴薯也會公佈數量"},{"start":146.469,"end":171.329,"text":"然後也會讓我們的消費者知道說我們的產地檢驗它如果超標就退運回去了如果超標就退運回去了我跟委員補充一下你說的百分之二到百分之十如果說這是一般的根據它的風險如果說它被檢測的話下一次它就提高了它的檢驗的那個頻度了跟它的標準可能會到二十三十這樣子那農業部也是一樣從六十起跳"},{"start":171.949,"end":189.617,"text":"如果他被我們發現有一些病狀害有沒有的部分那下一次可能變成百分之八十百分之九十這樣子的方式去處理根據他的風險好謝謝院長部長那回到主題那我想請問院長因為現在執政黨要重啟核能回頭思案"},{"start":191.017,"end":213.108,"text":"那賴總統除了感謝立法院修了核管法我想請教院長是不是也該對當初反對修正核管法的這個執政黨的委員對他們說些什麼還有就是說是不是也應該對當初我們修正了核管法的在野黨黨團說些什麼包括總統跟行政院並沒有對於"},{"start":214.147,"end":240.493,"text":"主張贊成或反對修核管法的個別委員有特別的表示我們有任何的意見我們是尊重大院對核管法的修法那總統也感謝說大院修這個修了核管法所以能夠重啟核能所以我想說是不是這個部分那既然要重啟核能我們核二廠核三廠這是舊的核電廠那配套是什麼"},{"start":241.192,"end":261.892,"text":"那如果說要新式所謂你說的新式核能就是新建嘛是不是要蓋新的核武廠那位置在哪裡院長我們對新式核能就是SMR這個或是MMR這樣的一個新式的核能絕對不是不是這個傳統的核能在增加不是傳統嘛那就是要新建嘛所以不是核二核三嘛對不對"},{"start":262.852,"end":284.677,"text":"核二核三是在經過核安會舊台電送出的再延轉計畫以及自主安全檢查審核格之後它可以有重啟的一個機會那要不要重啟要看整個當時社會的共識如何那如果檢查然後同意也審得通過可以重啟舊的核二核三嘛那新式核能就是要新建啊就這樣子啊"},{"start":285.077,"end":285.877,"text":"當初廢核沒有充分的跟社會大眾"},{"start":311.994,"end":340.809,"text":"做溝通所以才會衍生出後續的爭議2011年那時候宣布這一次要重啟這一次要重啟我們是希望說能夠聽取更多元的聲音不要說我要告訴院長因為錯誤的能源政策是確實是會造成國家為國家帶來危機我們的民生用電的不足產業用電出現管缺犧牲民眾的健康也會引發可能的一個國安的憂慮隱憂就像我們中火"},{"start":341.434,"end":353.059,"text":"中火現在是台灣最大的電廠所以我們中火鄉親因為中火必須要發大量的電提供給全國使用所以中火我們看一下這個數據這個"},{"start":357.711,"end":386.149,"text":"我要提的是台電2025年的財報那2025年的稅後盈餘新台幣729億不但是台電睽違三年以來的一個轉睽違表現還優於預期 刷新紀錄台電表示說2025年的盈餘將用來填補累計的虧損那稅這個稅後盈餘當中業外收入140億那剩餘600億都是電業收入那它合理的利潤是300億喔"},{"start":387.762,"end":407.099,"text":"那增加了300億的一個一個所謂的就是電力收入那這些就是從我們去年的調整電價來的嘛對不對就是從去年調整電價所以才會有這額外的300億好那我們看一下我們從去年廢核之後我們來自核能工業的電力少了400多億度400多億度齁"},{"start":409.321,"end":430.667,"text":"那有學者舉例嘛 假設一半由天然氣然後每度成本3.2元那四分之一由太陽光電每度成本5元四分之一由風電每度成本7元來替代這個發電成本每度只要1.1元的核電那台電相當於白白少賺了1200億"},{"start":432.011,"end":461.272,"text":"那這就是非核家園付出的一個最低的代價那這1200億的損失最終還是你我還有全體的國人荷包的損失都是我們要負擔的你剛才也提到核關法的規定它就只能40年而已不得不停下來這是法律上的規定只有核關法改了以後才有辦法可能再啟動你剛才也提到了那2011年那時候就是決定不願意因為"},{"start":461.972,"end":489.004,"text":"福島發生這個核災嘛那時候也是那時候潮大也大這決定喔好啦好啦謝謝啦因為我想最主要還是要回到台中火力發電廠的問題因為執政黨答應過我們地方鄉親說要用燃氣取代燃煤降低空污嘛但是現在台中港區既有的這個儲存潮目前是六座加上年底完工的兩座就是八座那這還有"},{"start":490.239,"end":505.617,"text":"計畫在外港區擴建的4座、12座再加上5街的5座總共是17座全部都集中在台中港那天然氣儲存廠現在是地方最擔心的問題2街還沒做完還有5街"},{"start":506.338,"end":530.152,"text":"那政策的一個遭遇細改苦的就是我們當地的民眾而且傷的也是我們民眾的荷包啦 全體民眾的荷包所以希望院長可以看到這一點這總共17座5階加2階17座的天然氣儲氣槽如果萬一發生什麼公安沒有人公安意外沒有人願意但是如果假設假設發生什麼公安意外這個"},{"start":531.753,"end":554.549,"text":"是零所效應是不堪想像因為你都全部集中在台中港區而且天然氣全部都仰賴進口我們從這個不管是我們一直提醒執政黨說一定會受到國際情勢然後天氣的狀況還有反應的狀況現在中東的戰況持續的延燒問題全部都反映出來了"},{"start":555.256,"end":567.158,"text":"全部都反映出來所以對我們當地居民的壓力非常的大儲氣槽的這個建制還有就是我們當地漁民的一個陳情"},{"start":568.496,"end":587.076,"text":"中游目前正在計畫接收站之間的串聯我們的海底輸氣管線的部件一定會影響這些漁民捕撈的漁場讓漁民的捕撈權益受損再加上我們這個港務公司毛泊區不斷的外擴所以這些儲氣槽"},{"start":588.377,"end":600.351,"text":"相關的這些建設是千里法動全身所以院長部長我想要請教你們有沒有全面的考慮到所衍生的這些漁民捕撈的權利還有所有的民生問題好跟委員報告這個"},{"start":602.23,"end":619.002,"text":"台中的發電廠在2026年也會有新的燃氣機組合上來所以包括台中以及其他高雄的興達也會有所以我們各地都是按照計畫來偵測四階五階等等以及三階的擴充它的除氣槽"},{"start":620.363,"end":636.395,"text":"這個都是按照計畫當中的所以也沒有集中在台中而已是各地都需要配備需要的另外工程進行的時候當然要高度的要求公安這個是責無旁貸的責任經濟部或中油或是台電都必須要達到這個標準再來就是在剛"},{"start":637.496,"end":664.366,"text":"臨海地區當然有漁場的一些經驗要去處理那麼從三階四階生育的保護或是漁場的這個漁獲的維護都有相當的經驗我也認為未來的處理我們應該從經驗當中會處理得比現在更好好 那我再請問是 那個因為那環評都有要求那環評過我們才會施工那包括那個怎麼樣怎麼樣留下或是什麼那個都有環評上的規定"},{"start":665.527,"end":679.207,"text":"怎麼樣盡量的保護漁場這個有相關的規定要有新的作為啦因為現在這個毛泊區的外擴我們台中港所有的漁民因為毛泊區的外擴就已經產生了非常大程度的一些影響"},{"start":680.163,"end":695.903,"text":"現在再加上我們這個海底所有管線的部件這個又是雪上加霜這個部分我想請院長跟部長一定要重視我們一定會注意到我在這邊再請教院長就過去我們一直喊蒸汽減煤嘛我們希望其實重點就是在減煤啦希望減煤減煤"},{"start":697.065,"end":712.035,"text":"中火也是全國最大的一個燃煤電廠那現在我們即將要重啟核能能不能具體的承諾我們台中的市民我們這個減煤的速度能不能再加快腳步"},{"start":713.144,"end":741.826,"text":"減煤啊院長有指示本來是2034年齁完全就是無煤嘛齁台中的部分那院長有指示說看能不能提前兩年啊那我們盡量來看看怎麼樣的做法提前兩年啊2032年對 這樣我們盡量來所以這個就是院長答應的就是要往這個目標做我去年到中火的時候我看到整個的計畫我認為絕對有那個空間那前提是現在的以氣換煤的新的燃氣機組要能夠照他的時程能夠上來"},{"start":742.406,"end":758.767,"text":"包括2026年有兩部機組就要上來了那我們就可以適時搭現有的燃煤機組做更適當的備用或是其他的處理方式院長為什麼提這個因為從112年到114年的9月中火一共發生了8次的公安意外"},{"start":759.8,"end":785.689,"text":"而且這還不包含沒有通報地方消防的這些事件那我們也對於第一線的工作人員他們非常的辛苦我們也對他們也是覺得說非常的這樣子的不捨但是我想第一線在中國大多數的從業人員都是在地的鄉親那我是希望說院長你有時間你還是要安排一下專程來到台中港"},{"start":786.469,"end":814.804,"text":"來看我們這個17座未來要布建的這17座的儲存槽以及台中火力發電廠就是中火他目前的設置還有當地民眾我們從業人員他們的工作環境可以嗎 院長好的 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因為大型的冷庫不好經營他要跨區域 跨品項 還要跨內外銷我們屏東那麼多包罩的國品我們的產季也不到半年另外半年那個冷庫不能閒置所以他閒置的時候沒有外銷的時候當然他做內銷 內銷給誰給全聯 給家樂福他們的國品也是需要冷鏈的所以大型的集中的冷庫不用多但是院長部長"},{"start":526.153,"end":548.26,"text":"還有沒有出到冷庫在計畫當中產地型的冷鏈系統這是我們在建構整個冷鏈網絡裡面一個非常重要的是產地型的冷鏈它最大的收益者就是農民因為農民只要有產地的冷鏈只要是小型的它可以解決田間樂它可以讓產品可以在傳統市場它可以讓運輸本來5天它可以放到10天"},{"start":548.88,"end":560.331,"text":"我們的芋圓,我們屏東各地的芋圓,沒有太多芋圓,芋圓都不會那麼漂亮,但是如果五天煩惱沒收到,你就滅掉所以說風修的時候,煩惱就等你下去,如果這個介紹不太好,你放三天你就撞不掉,所以院長知道齁"},{"start":566.337,"end":580.722,"text":"所以產地的冷庫對農民很重要但是產地的冷庫他沒有辦法跨品項他沒有辦法跨區域他甚至不能跨內外交他要跨什麼平常有生產季的時候兩個月四個月農用平常怎樣商用"},{"start":581.77,"end":604.858,"text":"讓人家長期負擔、升遷期負擔、做團善的讓他拿來放但是如果讓人家拿來放做商用,你不能斷電那如果預防斷電,陳部長,冷庫如果預防斷電,斷電會壞掉啊?要用什麼?要用備援嗎?你是認為用發電機備援比較好還是用儲能?儲能設備儲能,但是儲能很貴,多數農民的斷電系統就是柴油發電機"},{"start":606.178,"end":629.232,"text":"那現在如果我們要廣設這些產地型的冷庫,可不可以把儲能列為它的附屬設施?以我個人的判斷應該是可行的一個方式應該是可行的,部長,滾部長,如果儲能業者他除了做冷庫的不氮電設施,他也可以兼做當地區域的光電的儲能來調節電網,你覺得有沒有幫助我們電網的韌性?"},{"start":632.054,"end":653.997,"text":"是有幫助啊 是的他如果參與我們那個蓄量對 院長請指示經濟部跟農業部就我們農地設的冷庫它所附設的儲能是不是可以同時間做我們電網當中調節韌性的儲能好不好農業設施包括這個冷卻設施它已經附屬是可以發展這個光電"},{"start":655.178,"end":670.236,"text":"已經可以發展光電如果加上光電的儲藏只能用在頭頂上的它不能用別人的它加上儲能的話會更好好 那就是院長的意思那兩位部長可以回去研究一下好不好我們會來仔細的規劃來再往下看所以現在我們往下說電網"},{"start":671.701,"end":689.048,"text":"院長過去我們的台電它的電網是它做發電端也是它做大概只有兩位數的發電廠用戶端上百萬上千萬它的電網的膚色就要配合的都市計畫暴露所以過去台電它的用電戶的電網很順"},{"start":692.277,"end":711.271,"text":"路開到哪裡?住宅區、工業區、商業區開到哪裡?它電就送到哪裡?那這個電網設施包括什麼?一次變電所、二次變電所、配電所還有匯線但是現在發電的地方現在不是只有二位數、兩位數的電廠現在很多光電廠都在哪裡?不在都市計劃區域"},{"start":712.712,"end":738.168,"text":"這些電廠台電還要用電網去把他的電接過來所以台電就沒有辦法按照道路規劃他坐餐廳沒幾條路啊電網要怎麼設往往設的潰線設的深壓站光電者就開始搶那個配線的容量院長知道齁那怎麼解決怎麼解決解決的方式就是怎樣他有些弊端就是先唱先贏先唱先贏造成很多的浪費"},{"start":739.329,"end":762.953,"text":"光電的開發商,他可能為了要搶得虧線,他要先到台電去放保證金如果時間到,他沒有辦法整合,他就要讓給第二名,然後他的保證就沒收了那第三名沒有拿到虧線的,明明整合好了,沒有虧線他也沒有辦法發電所以可不可以請院長指示部長,台電可不可以先去預化往下看就是說這個虧線容量的搶奪往下看"},{"start":763.473,"end":769.129,"text":"就是能夠超前部署,這樣的話我們土地開發井然有序,公共設施按時到位"},{"start":770.56,"end":794.856,"text":"部長,我剛剛跟你提過,您覺得台電是不是要為了未來的電網的韌性,我們對於發電端的電網的配置要及早做規劃,讓這些發電業者可以有所遵循,部長覺得怎麼樣?我們嘗試的來努力看看,至少從某一個區域先開始因為這個範圍實在是太大了,就是說這些光電業者"},{"start":795.697,"end":816.353,"text":"他什麼時候會在哪裡開發,然後開發跟地主談的怎麼樣部長我知道,你講的我都想過,這個業者要去想腦筋,但是可以開發各種不同的發電方式的都很有限啦現在哪裡開可以發都有限都算得出來,往下看我先考一下我們的孔部長,燃料電池儲能跟水利,它是屬於發電裝置還是電網裝置"},{"start":821.34,"end":826.005,"text":"除能本身它根本不會發電,它是屬於電網裝置但是水力發電過去認為是發電裝置但是它現在的抽蓄水力發電開始調節電網,它也可以設為電網裝置對不對"},{"start":836.297,"end":863.357,"text":"我們現在的燃料電池,燃料電池是什麼?燃料電池是用LNG去的只是它不是透過燃燒,它透過化學反應來產生電力它是發電裝置,它也可以成為什麼?儲能裝置,就是成為電網裝置好,那往下看所以我們能源轉型2.0,電網韌性很重要我們在發展自主能源有光電、風電跟地熱我們的這個兼具電網跟發電的水力或燃料電池未來會起一具的發展"},{"start":863.777,"end":889.596,"text":"那至於氫能跟儲能也要事先配置但是我們知道現在燃料電池它發的單價很貴可是它有一個好處它在目前的都市計畫裡面它比儲能還容易找到位置放所以我們可能不知道未來在都會地區我可能不見得能夠放儲能但是我可以放什麼我可以放燃料電池那燃料電池它既然可以發電是不是可以列入台電的電網跟發電裝置的設備當中"},{"start":892.978,"end":915.152,"text":"是可以參與嘛 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請主席邀請卓院長還有經濟部長貝勳"},{"start":39.565,"end":42.908,"text":"美伊戰爭爆發後,荷姆斯海峽遭封鎖,導致中東石油產地運輸問題,造成國際能源價格飆漲"},{"start":64.529,"end":88.349,"text":"尤其就是说在海峡遭封锁之后石油的供应也造成了很大的一个危机也造成了石化原料的一个短缺所以这样子的一个状况当然对我们整个国家的民生经济造成很大的冲击我们看到行政院目前就是针对为了要稳定物价防止通货膨胀所以我们也有几项的"},{"start":88.909,"end":93.092,"text":"重大的措施包括針對運輸的票價動漲還有國內的油價目前動漲還有補貼計程車車資還有一些措施我現在想請教一下"},{"start":110.664,"end":121.511,"text":"對於針對中小企業的一個衝擊目前我們行政院或者經濟部這邊有沒有去掌握到對中小企業有造成什麼嚴重的衝擊"},{"start":123.339,"end":140.369,"text":"好跟委員報告原則性的問題第一個行政院從2月底開始就成立了這個因應中東情勢衝突的民生安定專案的小組的會議每個禮拜都會開會每個禮拜三還有物價穩定小組那禮拜五我們還要最後聽這個"},{"start":143.25,"end":169.943,"text":"核算下一周油價是否要做如何的調適這個是固定的那這樣做就是要讓整個產業第一個物價能夠穩定民生能夠安定那當中我們也知道包括塑膠袋一些醫療的這個醫材還有農業的包材等等在原料的源頭比較欠缺的時候我們也啟動了四清它的整個源頭的原料的生產"},{"start":170.663,"end":185.232,"text":"那也把它放生產之後交給下游中下游去做製品那現在已經有5000噸的這個原料能夠產生出12.5億個塑膠袋這個是對民生的部分對於產業我想從大眾運輸企業運輸企業剛剛委員提到了我們從計程車"},{"start":190.856,"end":216.784,"text":"大客車還有這個國內航空還有國內的船舶交通我們也做了全面性的一些補貼的政策那油價跟電價的穩定那是包括民生包括產業都受惠到這整個物價穩定的調整的過程那細節如果請部長再補充那巴偉園除了剛剛院長提到的就是價格的穩定之外然後另外料園我們也希望充足之外"},{"start":217.384,"end":239.113,"text":"事實上因為任性條例的這個部分進一步編了460億嘛那那個本來就是給傳統產業跟中小企業來用的所以就是說不管他是升級轉型也好或是融資貸款的利息補助也好或是多元市場的開拓也好那個持續在做那我們現在收的案件已經好幾千件那也持續在做那另外我們也"},{"start":240.814,"end":262.894,"text":"組織了這個競爭力的輔導團那也輔導了現在已經有4000多家在輔導當中已經有一些完成了那這個部分我們實際在做除了這個之外公務運算也還有100億的中小為多元振興方案那這是院長每一年都會給我們100億那這個也是針對中小企業來做一些協助的所以我們有衝"},{"start":264.505,"end":290.038,"text":"份的這些準備來支撐我們中小企業的一些因應的發展剛剛部長所回答的這些事實上就是說在我們中美貿易談判之後我們這些措施就已經有在實施可是就是說在中美貿易關稅的問題發生的時候當然中小企業他們因為就是這個關稅的問題也導致他們這個就是接單也造成很大的一個困擾就是"},{"start":291.038,"end":312.252,"text":"在要不要接都是一個很大的困擾那現在因為原物料的上漲因為最近我拜訪中小企業他們就反映說目前的原物料漲得非常的高包括其中一項就是甲本它從每公餅4000元漲到現在每公餅要15000元等於是漲了三倍"},{"start":313.132,"end":332.439,"text":"所以這樣子的一個價格這樣子的一個成本導致他們目前就是包括一些食品業者的包材他們要印刷那個封面等等還有包括這個磷膜原料PE和EVA也漲了三到四倍業者做這個果凍上的一絲膜價格也漲了30%"},{"start":334.379,"end":358.495,"text":"這個是在中美貿易關稅之後我們新的一波問題就是因為這個能源的年代的石化原料的問題所衍生的新的目前的一個狀況所以過去就是說在之前你剛剛部長回答的潤性的這些就是措施就是支撐中小企業不管是轉型技術提升等等"},{"start":358.895,"end":377.569,"text":"我覺得對於他們這一次面臨的就是原物料的一個上漲的衝擊我覺得幫助不大我是想建議行政院這邊有沒有考量就是從稅負的就是去減免這個方向去考慮來減輕他們的一些負擔報委員因為現在油價當然是"},{"start":381.189,"end":403.406,"text":"累計起來大概漲了百分之也許70、80、90如果最大幅度漲到這樣子那也是反映這個但是我們有一個平穩措施理論上是不應該漲那麼多的現在油價部份我們大概只有反映百分之十幾到二十而已所以委員如果有發現或是怎麼樣的不合理的case的話"},{"start":404.207,"end":420.17,"text":"也許讓我們知道一下我們來了解到底出了什麼問題這樣子報告委剛剛你說到甲本從4000漲到15000我們是沒有收到這個訊息我會請法務部主動去追查因為這個是超過了漲幅的範圍無論他是不法的轟台或是囤積或是聯合壟斷行為我會請法務部主動去調查這個事情因為"},{"start":429.992,"end":447.037,"text":"目前的掌握度來看不應該有這麼如此高的一個漲價幅度有百分之二十三十也許短時間內還必須可以忍受但是我們盡量把它壓低但是這種幅度實在是太不合理所以我想就是說對於中小企業真的是在苦苦支撐"},{"start":448.357,"end":471.365,"text":"之前的一波中美關稅的衝擊現在又面臨了石油危機的衝擊所以它已經快撐不下去了那我也希望就是說因為中小企業也是我們台灣整體經濟很重要的一部分所以應該要真的要去實際了解就是對於基層中小企業面臨的問題要實際掌握到"},{"start":472.445,"end":496.457,"text":"是不是就是這部分建議部長接下來本席來關心一下有關這個農地工廠合法化的一個目前的狀況我們知道這個剛剛有提到中小企業就是台灣這個經濟的最重要的一個部分那很多的這個中小企業過去以來就是因為工業用地的不足那就是都"},{"start":497.077,"end":515.376,"text":"建立興建在農地上就是這個所謂的農地工廠這也超過50年的問題也是一個歷史工業那我們在2019年我們為了要解決這樣子的一個歷史工業所以我們有修訂了工福法就是開一個路讓他們可以循著這個程序"},{"start":516.576,"end":543.388,"text":"來合法化可是目前我們看到的資料因為我們看到全國目前已經提交改善計畫的有33,467家就是應該提交的那已提交的是29,136家取得特登的是12,767家那全國取得合法工廠登記的有幾家這個我目前沒有問到問不到"},{"start":545.129,"end":562.552,"text":"就我彰化縣的資料來看目前已經提交的是6195家取得特登的是3676家到最後一個階段能夠取得合法工廠登記的只有22家這樣子的一個比例"},{"start":562.992,"end":587.947,"text":"真的是非常的低也可以說寥寥可撫所以本席提這個數據主要就是說希望我們院長能夠去重視就是說這些農地工廠他們在合法化的過程所面臨到的問題到底是什麼樣的問題能不能協助解決如果不能的話我覺得到最後這個還是一個沒有辦法"},{"start":588.628,"end":594.785,"text":"要解決的一個歷史工業那是不是就這樣擺著嗎我不曉得說院長有什麼想法"},{"start":595.165,"end":619.904,"text":"好 謝謝 這個委員所在的這個彰化也是我們這個農登工廠應該是最多最久的一個地方所以長期以來委員的關心我們都了解日前我也跟委員討論過對於這個農登工廠它應該要突破歷史上一些還沒有辦法解決的問題來把它克服掉那它解決到目前可以解決的這個案件實在是太少了"},{"start":620.484,"end":636.06,"text":"那表示我們的任何的規定沒有 現在的規定沒有辦法去因應這些問題那如果在整個農地的管理之下農業部可以在不影響整個農業 農產安全農產量安全的狀況底下如果要來面對這個問題"},{"start":637.481,"end":665.535,"text":"我們已經跟農業部還有內政部做一個通盤的討論那也請委員提供出來在當地的這個產業界需要怎麼樣的處理就產業業者跟政府的現在的規定當間這麼大的落差會如何來彌平這個正在進行研究當中本席提這個數據主要也是希望院長要去了解然後重視這個議題那接下來本席想請教有關就是目前台灣農業面臨的一個問題"},{"start":667.356,"end":669.317,"text":"目前臺灣農村有一個狀況正在發生越南移工變成地下老闆"},{"start":686.568,"end":710.698,"text":"主導在整個農業的一個經營模式請問部長知道嗎我想我們有掌握這樣的一個情況那這種情況最普遍的就是說在合法的農地的一個經營的過程中他可能用五厘地或一分地的部分讓這些移工來自己經營然後拿去販售那這個部分其實我們已經掌握相關的一個資訊"},{"start":712.058,"end":727.855,"text":"同樣的這是一個不合法的行為也會影響到我們國內的農民的生活跟農產的貿易所以後續我想我們再跟勞動部這邊看要怎麼樣去針對非法的移工去做這樣的行為"},{"start":729.436,"end":756.654,"text":"本席在今年過年期間一直到目前陸續就是在田尾、普延就是在走訪基層的時候就有遇到鄉親跟我反映這個問題那時候我在想說因為我本來還不知道有這樣子的一個狀況農民反映之後結果在三月份我們也看到了有一個上下游的網路媒體針對這個議題做了八篇深入的報導我才覺得說那這個已經是一個很普遍"},{"start":757.234,"end":785.457,"text":"很嚴重的一個問題因為當時我在我的選區就是田委遇到的鄉親他們就是反映說今年從過年到目前整個蔬菜價格都沒有很好他就跟我提到說就是有這個外籍移工他們現在就是自己貿產做陶芸他們種植之後他們在販售的時候他們就是壓低這個價格所以導致整個交易"},{"start":786.965,"end":809.962,"text":"蔬菜市場的交易價格就是崩盤拉低了所以這樣子一個狀況的存在我們也希望農業部要去重視當然這個菜價是一體兩面不過我覺得比較嚴重的是食安的問題就是農藥用藥的問題因為我們看到這篇報導裡面他有提到說在去年颱風"},{"start":812.163,"end":821.708,"text":"來襲之前結果在雲林的果菜市場發現了很多批的葉菜類的蔬菜農藥檢驗都超標這樣的狀況去跟他追查之後原來就是為了搶收"},{"start":829.071,"end":855.783,"text":"所以這個就是說這個外籍移工他可能不知道這個農藥的一個管控的期間或者是說他也不知道是不是用了正確的農藥因為他們就是成為實際的這個農業經營者的時候他們能夠去農藥行買農藥嗎就是說在對農藥或者肥料的使用上沒有辦法受到管控所以如果說發生了這樣子的一個食安問題的時候我們要怎樣去溯源"},{"start":856.898,"end":879.483,"text":"我想第一個跟委員報告就是今年年初的這個車家低迷有一大部分的原因是因為去年因為台灣的關係然後過度集中種植導致的那第二個部分針對您所提的這個移工本身的部分現在是用合法掩護非法所以他們是用類似分論的概念就是說合法的農地跟經營主體"},{"start":880.643,"end":903.991,"text":"他提供給這些非法移工做這些經營然後去做抽煙案所以我們現在已經掌握從批發市場批發市場拍賣的時候我們就會特別去注意他本身的經銷人包括實際在拍賣的人是不是一個有問題的一個人那第二個部分在產地面我們也是跟我們的農民講有任何的這種把自己土地分潤給"},{"start":905.231,"end":918.883,"text":"那些外籍移工去做種植然後收入如他們收的部分的話我們是嚴格的未來我們所有的補助所有的救助都不會給予他們那這個部分我想我們會加強第三個就是我們在考慮在適當的時間點我們會啟動聯合稽查"},{"start":922.407,"end":948.932,"text":"剛剛部長講的是其中一個狀況因為我們看這一個報導就是網路媒體的一個報導除了分論之外他們還有一個模式就是他們是真正的就是保地的耕作者所以他們也造成了人地競爭就是說他跟我們台灣的青農競爭在租這個農地所以也造成我們青農在耕作上這個土地"},{"start":962.083,"end":962.484,"text":"好謝謝陳樹越委"}]}},{"id":"168850","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168850","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6961fddac991000b2e60b76c81d58f15b5a46e9be1b9bc700f47e02e7f236b8d5fafcff08c5e5b495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:21:07 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除了想要把它混淆視聽我真的不知道有什麼實質能夠理性討論的空間其實政府 卓院長或是我們相關的文武百官們大家思考一下一句話"},{"start":97.406,"end":113.771,"text":"武狀元舒啟兒這部電影裡面講的丐幫之所以人多絕對不是丐幫幫主英明神武而是取決於皇帝的治理是否良好如果皇帝今天真的千秋萬世文成武德的話誰都不想要去當乞丐"},{"start":116.152,"end":143.495,"text":"鬼才想要去當乞丐一樣的道理今天如果說政府對於詐騙犯罪的態度是積極的是有效的是嚇阻的是能夠讓詐騙集團消失在台灣社會的我們為什麼要去討論詐騙為什麼要去討論鞭刑就是因為過去這幾年民眾看到性侵虐童詐騙犯罪持續層出不窮甚至讓"},{"start":145.157,"end":162.683,"text":"加害者沒有嚇阻效果 沒有警惕效果 沒有恐懼效果當台灣已經走向實質廢止的時候我們能不能有一個更強而有力的武器去保護人民的公平正義這才是這個提案最終的重點"},{"start":164.244,"end":183.633,"text":"我就說如果今天卓院長你可以下令一個月內讓詐騙數消失一半讓詐騙集團離開台灣馬上邊行打炸公投沒有人要討論因為我們不用了就是因為過去這幾年沒有這樣的效果也因此本席真的要呼籲"},{"start":184.773,"end":202.431,"text":"看清重點 認清方向所有執政團隊大家一起動起來做一些實事而不是再用網軍帶風向網軍帶的風向沒有辦法阻擋台灣2350萬人真實的民主好 謝謝侯孟愷委員的發言 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168849","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168849","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6961fddac991000bfd0581c1e1cc9461b5a46e9be1b9bc700f47e02e7f236b8d5fafcff08c5e5b495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:17:37 - 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跳脫硬體思維補助政策不能只有看到"},{"start":130.058,"end":138.304,"text":"產線或是硬體的採購要真正將獎勵軟體開發還有數據的服務將產值的轉換第二要建立產業示範區將AI導致教育跟運動產業讓新創的技術有實驗的場域把研發能量跟商業產值"},{"start":158.539,"end":175.794,"text":"第三 人才培育國際化 不能只會寫程式要培養出能定義全球規的 具備商業思維的AI人才院長 富國神山不能只有一座"},{"start":177.303,"end":205.787,"text":"當硬體優勢已經全球分散化的時候台灣的軟體實力還有世紀價值畢竟要成為我們新的防護網不要讓台灣的AI實力只停留在實驗室的報告書裡我們要讓它成為實實在在的國家競爭力謝謝蔡春哲委"}]}},{"id":"168846","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168846","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6961fddac991000ba8f2c8a0f369bc04b5a46e9be1b9bc700f47e02e7f236b8d142e1c090ea04b925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"09:07:18 - 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孩子們打造一個安全的生長環境吧謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168844","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168844","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6961fddac991000b1acb17a4135de582b5a46e9be1b9bc700f47e02e7f236b8dbcaba41c2d3d6ba95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱慧洳","委員發言時間":"09:00:26 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下次會再許願我也相信現階段的跟過去的採購概念上應該有很大的差異對 尤其不同的對象 不同的品項 不同的技術所以我會跟工程會好好地研究請他們迅速就這個部分來提出那也向委員來請教好 謝謝那因為我們延續我們上次討論的關稅的議題那就是可能很多委員都問過其實到我們現在ART MOU還是沒有收到"},{"start":127.478,"end":145.669,"text":"那沒有收到當然我們相信也有很多的原因跟這個狀況那不曉得有沒有哪一些就是ART、MOU的內容是可以說在沒有牽扯到機密的情況之下等等是不是可以先送到我們這些委員來做一些參考"},{"start":147.368,"end":169.406,"text":"談判團隊回來的時候我們有公布了一些內容MOU的部分啊MOU現在只有就是美國因為官網上有公布他的那個flagship那因為完整的他還在行政上他沒有做行政上的公布那我們的ART也算確定了嗎還沒有因為他還在做法律工具的轉換"},{"start":171.308,"end":197.706,"text":"如果有就儘快 牽扯到這種談判機密的情況你那邊又啟動了301的調查我知道我知道 我現在是說如果可以嘛 在某些的一些可揭露的資訊不然我現在都是瞎子摸象就是摸不太清楚談判團隊回來的時候我們有公開一部分那部分現在還不會確定但是我們依照那個內容正在跟美方確認也確保我們在阿特當中所得到的待遇"},{"start":198.246,"end":227.637,"text":"沒錯啦 因為現在ART啦 122 122也看起來也是會有問題根據這前一陣子法院的問題所以我想這個目前301的準備還是一個很重要的一環再下一頁那因為上次我還是很代表廠商就是說整個整合資訊的窗口查證那上次政府業長也答應我說要做一個整合的然後是在這個OTN的網站可是我看了很久還是沒有"},{"start":229.453,"end":248.59,"text":"還是沒有,所以這個再麻煩,因為我想大家行動內閣也不可以很落差,還是一樣,沒有什麼改變就是把ART啦,然後這些東西放上來,就這樣子而已但是我要查一些新的關稅者,我還是要各部會各部會去看,而且你們放的都只是新聞稿跟文件所以還是希望做一個資訊系統的"},{"start":250.612,"end":279.173,"text":"揭露跟整合如果經貿辦公室做不了就請經濟部做經貿辦公室主要還是談判相關的議題因為上次政府院長答應我的經濟部做上次專報在二月初的時候到現在事實上沒有新的確定的內容變更都在原來的狀態裡面那美方是在做法律因為有些貨物品像是食物然後現在業務就是食"},{"start":279.833,"end":304.425,"text":"然後有一些蝴蝶仁本來是進口到那邊是零然後現在變成食物等等我說讓它維持一致的資訊嘛因為資訊的呈現還是希望real time跟正確好不好我請光部長這個應該可以啦好不好來下一頁那上次也是一個問題啊就是我們那一個2.5N在我們建廠的時候晶片輸美嘛對不對那個N是產能"},{"start":305.822,"end":317.123,"text":"所以上次我在問的是問了四次就是2.5N然後之後你建廠之後量產的1.5N所以那個N那個產能我今天就給到底是"},{"start":318.277,"end":341.181,"text":"我們台灣政府認定?還是台積電認定?還是美國政府認定?這個我們還在跟美國協商當中因為他等到他232公布以後他就確認因為他現在232還沒有公布但是我們那個N你期待是誰來認定?就是我們心中先不管美國對我們最有利我們跟他討論當然是希望用產能"},{"start":342.612,"end":355.59,"text":"那個產能是誰認定我們跟他共同因為我們去投資廠商以後那廠商投資了多少錢可能創造多少的產能這個部分雙方要有一個確認"},{"start":357.148,"end":381.204,"text":"好啦我是希望是說我們台灣政府在這一個產能的認定可以大一點強韌一點這個是我的期待我們一定爭取最最最最優秀那你就給我的答案就是我也獲得答案嘛就是我們台灣政府對不對跟我們台積電講好只有一個好的數字然後堅決跟美國去做好的談判是不是這樣子好來下一個"},{"start":383.518,"end":399.424,"text":"那我為什麼要問這一個因為現在川普又在說一件事他把50%的晶片的產能移到美國然後他也說了伍特尼克說美光要投資2000億我們台積電有1650億之後他說台灣會再追加5000億也就是我們講的2500億加2500億的信保"},{"start":408.576,"end":415.428,"text":"剛剛說這樣加起來是一兆 接近一兆那剛剛這個 這川普講的不是我講的 魯范尼克講的所以我說"},{"start":417.194,"end":438.232,"text":"因為最重要還是根據MOU嘛我們MOU怎麼簽我們就照MOU來簽所以他講的是騙我們的嗎不是那個是他還是他的期待我不曉得他是怎麼樣的依據我們就沒有判但是我們就是針對我們跟他簽MOU因為那個數字多起來都很合理因為1650億的台積電合理2500億加2500億5000億的美金也合理"},{"start":444.236,"end":471.345,"text":"1600億那個已經公佈了我知道啊,5000億他說的啊,魯特尼克說的啊好,那沒關係,我現在回過頭來問一件事喔就是說我們當時在想蘇美這麼多出口的產值來講的話我們的半導體晶片加上衍生性的產品大概是佔了76%左右對不對,最大宗所以那時候我們怕被他課稅"},{"start":473.37,"end":490.721,"text":"因為川普也威脅說你不把他移過來不到這邊設草就可以重稅我現在這一張的問題就是部長因為可能院長太過分來問部長半導體晶片的課稅怎麼課?說實在的話他也還沒有講清楚他說現在"},{"start":495.712,"end":513.174,"text":"現在半島零晶片是還不用課稅啊零嘛對不對上次我們回答過零那現在講整個流程我要告訴你說因為我在資通訊才坐太久我幫各位上課好了來下一頁如果我是回答下晶片下去給了台積電"},{"start":514.807,"end":543.033,"text":"那台積電做好完輝達的晶片之後他是進到輝達的貨倉所以整個輝達的貨倉那整個都還是輝達的貨輝達的貨進到美國根據美國關稅他就根據他的IPO也就是說你現在的Owner是誰嘛進口商是誰所以是輝達的貨是輝達要付關稅好even是Google下單給聯發科做TPU然後再叫TSMC來出來到紅海組裝還是Google的server"},{"start":545.191,"end":568.926,"text":"進去進口還是Google要付關稅跟晶片的owner因為主要是進口商是誰跟院長報告進口商是誰所以呢基本上來講的話台灣都是這種模式尤其在我們的高科技廠台灣不會有走這種台灣不會走這種DTP關稅或交貨"},{"start":572.488,"end":588.445,"text":"這種就是賣方要付稅,付完完稅之後再到買方去那我們台灣都是上一張我們是代工對,不是,百分對代工的話就是百分之百是上面這一張的一個模式所以,克不到水所以他如果要加裝我們不管"},{"start":589.506,"end":614.928,"text":"半導體晶片或者是伺服器等等組裝的產品除了低階啦低階的話我們這些不管像NB伺服器它反正就在德州美墨家這邊就設廠了不管是偽創、鴻海、仁寶對不對,鴻基這些所以我的意思就是說不管它關稅晶片、半導體晶片怎麼課它就是課不到因為它就是必須仰賴我們生產製造"},{"start":618.551,"end":630.843,"text":"目前來講的話比如說對本關稅的課法的確是課進口商的但是進口商因為他被課了如果提高稅的話他會反映給他的代工商"},{"start":632.235,"end":658.45,"text":"我台積電就把駕照回到你NVIDIA、Google、Apple所以應該是NVIDIA、Google、Apple這些去push川普叫他不要亂搞所以我的意思是說最後的結論就是我們的半導體太強 不用讓太多 強勢一點要是我是部長 我真的不讓"},{"start":659.755,"end":683.012,"text":"因為我在半導體產業在資通訊那麼久所以我們基本上是尊重廠商他因為商業上的原因到美國去布局這個是我們尊重所以為什麼要導出這件事情就是說我們要跟國人講的我們半導體根本不怕你瞌睡所以這個剩下只是商業雙方的行為"},{"start":684.281,"end":702.947,"text":"對不對但是因為我們的不可替代性沒有辦法替代太高了所以基本上就不要害怕那下一個重點就是既然我們半高體不害怕蘇美那麼多產值不害怕的情況之下我覺得我們跳到農那一張農業就是我們在一些農業的一些的"},{"start":711.789,"end":733.622,"text":"不管是什麼樣子的方式我是覺得都不應該讓不要讓因為他拿我們半導體拿我們這些高級是沒者不要讓太多像剛剛很多委員就問了馬鈴薯滋亂很多馬鈴薯滋亂是真的很多那我的意思是說剛剛院長也講了一顆一顆查驗不對嘛食藥署說2%嘛"},{"start":737.405,"end":750.396,"text":"對,百分之二的查驗剛剛鍾嘉斌委員有做球給你們講了一大堆那我的問題也很單純就是假設我查驗在以前的話可能是整批貨櫃就退了"},{"start":752.142,"end":772.343,"text":"那現在在他說我食藥署的這個應該是署長他YouTube裡頭就講他說沒有我們一顆查出來有FIRE我們就退一顆我覺得不太對啦我覺得應該是退整櫃就是保障國人的健康優先啦所以檢驗超標的話那是整櫃會退"},{"start":773.164,"end":786.395,"text":"對啦 我是說他的節檢檢驗 超標就會退一顆都不要 因為我覺得沒有超標如果看到裡面有發芽的那麼我們就要來進行農業部後續的工作反正現在就是"},{"start":788.039,"end":793.283,"text":"絕對不是院長講的一顆一顆驗嘛那是前端時間暫停好不好那個我們請農業部長上備選擇好不好不好意思2%那10%那當然不是一顆一顆驗那是抽驗2%到10%"},{"start":804.312,"end":824.032,"text":"那如果沒有超標那這個就沒有問題但沒有超標裡面如果看到有芽它會進到農業部農業部就會業者剛剛我有聽完整個那些的回答質詢10%那個絕對不是一顆一顆是後端的這個部分好啦 因為院長講話講太快了嘛就會被作文章因為沒有時間讓我們這樣好好的講"},{"start":825.891,"end":853.732,"text":"好沒問題但是我是覺得國內還是覺得這些東西的毒素殘留還是非常的不安全對我來講不過我剛剛委員報告很簡單的講沒關係下一個議題下一個議題的話就是說整個在ART3.33就第三點三條的38項規定台灣的狂牛證BS1相關法規不適用於美國野牛這個是不是很恐怖啊"},{"start":857.903,"end":886.486,"text":"這個不是我寫的我要跟委員報告就是我們針對美國部分的BSA部分他已經被認定是就是BSE的可忽略的國家那可忽略的國家的部分他的瘤的部分的所有的相關的這些產品是可以進來但是我們國家還是保齡的部分的品項是不能進來的所以跟這個野瘤的部分那野瘤如果傳染到肉瘤的部分的話那美國那邊就會被判其他的一個做法"},{"start":887.106,"end":914.845,"text":"這是野牛協會2026年2月19號發布的官方新聞稿他說在台美對貿ART當中明確規定台灣的狂牛政相應法規不適用於美國野牛所以我只要是美國野牛隨便進第一個美國野牛是不會進來因為一般的進口像我們台灣的牛肉自給率只有4.6所以大部分的牛肉如果從美國進來的時候都是他們專用的肉牛沒關係來下一個"},{"start":916.502,"end":935.861,"text":"所以我是覺得說還有很多東西我是覺得不應該是去讓這件事情可能在台灣這邊再嚴守一點這是我們全民的健康下一頁再往下我覺得這一陣子我收到很多這樣子不管動物用藥、塑膠袋滋潤、醫材價格然後經貿半霸凌"},{"start":951.963,"end":952.163,"text":"好 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各黨團同意5月19日星期二上午10點"},{"start":5411.336,"end":5430.073,"text":"開會進行總統彈劾案記名投票表決投票時間為一個小時上開彈劾案處理完畢當日下午繼續進行個人諮詢報言會本支院會後續依照黨團共識來進行現在進行報告事項部分請議事員宣讀黨團提議內容"},{"start":5432.605,"end":5449.405,"text":"本院民進黨黨團針對立法院第十一屆第五會期第八次會議議事日程報告事項質詢事項擬請甄列報告事項事實案如附表是否有當盡情公決本院台灣民眾黨黨團針對第十一屆第五會期第八次會議議程報告事項質詢事項"},{"start":5450.886,"end":5475.643,"text":"對行政院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續諮詢同一權之行使事項5月5日上午及審計長列席報告中華民國113年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並被諮詢5月5日下午提議議程草案報告事項第29案、60案及61案不予立案並僅限列其餘議程草案及下榜所立案是否有當進行公決"},{"start":5476.664,"end":5497.34,"text":"本院國民黨黨團針對第十一屆第五會期第八次會議議程報告事項諮詢事項及對行政院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續諮詢同意權之行使事項5月5日上午及審計長列席報告中華民國113年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並被諮詢5月5日下午"},{"start":5497.74,"end":5507.793,"text":"提議議程草案包括事項第29案、60案及61案不予列案並僅限於其餘議程草案及下表所列案是否有當進行公決宣讀完畢"},{"start":5944.107,"end":5965.866,"text":"好 按鈴時間已到請問每位委員是否都有拿到表決卡都有拿到 我們現在開始進行表決針對民進黨提議進行表決現在有民進黨 台灣民眾黨要求記名表決我們開始進行記名表決贊成民進黨提案 請按贊成 反對按反對時間一分鐘 現在開始"},{"start":6044.326,"end":6062.035,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝抱怨會報告表決結果在場出席委員110位贊成51位反對59位贊成者少數民黨提議不通過抱怨會我們現在進行處理臺灣民眾黨團僅限列之提議國民黨團提與該黨團提相同我們一併進行處理請問議員會"},{"start":6071.409,"end":6087.322,"text":"對台灣民眾黨團國民黨團提議通過有無異議有異議我要進行表決我們就開始進行表決針對台灣民眾黨團國民黨團所提議的贊成和贊成反對按反對時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":6159.067,"end":6183.461,"text":"報應會報告表決結果在場出席委員110位贊成60位反對50位贊成者多數台灣民眾黨團國民黨團提議照案通過本次會議議事日程報告事項 質詢事項對行政院長施政方針及施政報告繼續諮詢同意權行使事項及總預算等案審核報告諮詢照台灣民眾黨團國民黨團提議"},{"start":6187.273,"end":6193.369,"text":"及協商結論通過報案會本次會議一時之間草案討論事項依照黨團共識本次會議一時之間確定"},{"start":6196.752,"end":6222.248,"text":"我們現在進行報告事項請民議長宣讀第五會期第七次會議議事錄宣讀立法院第十一屆第五會期第七次會議議事錄時間中華民國一百十五年四月十七日二十一日地點本院議場出席委員換委員員等一百十二人列席官員行事院院長卓榮泰等主席院長韓國瑜副院長江啟臣報告事項第一項宣讀本院第十一屆第五會期第六次"},{"start":6223.108,"end":6238.013,"text":"會議議事錄決定確定第二次246案其中第163至160萬為交易及文化委員會等所提出報告案第166案決定展延審查期限第167案決定"},{"start":6240.094,"end":6255.684,"text":"地埔召集委名單交修憲委員會處理其疑準於被查第246案決定依黨團協商結論處理其疑議案均決定交互相關委員會審查處理或交互相關委員會資訊事項夾"},{"start":6258.789,"end":6273.246,"text":"行政院答案部分一件以本院委員執行部分一件討論四項第一案決議交互黨人協商第二之四案決議通過對行政院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續執行決定下次委員會繼續進行經濟組織執行行政院長等列席報告"},{"start":6280.298,"end":6297.012,"text":"115年度中央政府總議算案編制經過並答覆諮詢決定交財政委員會一分配表及日程分送各委員會審查其他事項依115年4月15日朝野黨團協商結論共奧見奧比斯會議事日程及照台灣民眾黨黨團國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":6305.499,"end":6320.385,"text":"黨團共識及四月十五日協商結論通過宣讀完畢會議會針對第五會期第七次會議議事錄並沒有委員或黨團提出錯誤或遺漏之處我們現在做以下決定第五會期第七次會議議事錄確定現在處理政見部分請宣讀第一案"},{"start":6322.058,"end":6350.371,"text":"1.委員張志倫等領據《道路交通管理處罰條例》第35條條文修正草案擬交交通委員會審查宣斷必2.委員張志倫等領據《中華民國刑法》第80條條文修正草案擬交司法及法治委員會審查宣斷必3.委員張志倫等領據《就業服務法》部分條文修正草案擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣斷必4.委員張志倫等領據《廢棄物清理法》部分條文修正草案擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣斷必"},{"start":6351.531,"end":6369.368,"text":"五 委員張志榮等領據資源回收再利用法修正草案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣轉閉六 委員賴思寶等領據虛擬資產服務法草案 擬交財政委員會審查 宣轉閉七 委員歐小林等領據大學法第35條條文修正草案 擬交教育及文化委員會審查 宣轉閉"},{"start":6370.909,"end":6392.288,"text":"8.委員歐小林等領據《高級中等教育法》第58條條文修正草案 擬加教育及文化委員會審查 宣轉閉9.委員歐小林等領據《中科學校法》第44條條文修正草案 擬加教育及文化委員會審查 宣轉閉10.委員歐小林等領據《法官法》第4條及第90條條文修正草案 擬加司法及法治委員會審查 宣轉閉"},{"start":6394.209,"end":6402.213,"text":"11.委員歐小林等你據刑事訴訟法第93條及101條條文修正常案擬交司法及法治委員會審查宣傳令12."},{"start":6402.213,"end":6407.996,"text":"委員歐小林等你據刑事訴訟法第310條條文修正常案擬交司法及法治委員會審查宣傳令"},{"start":6409.176,"end":6429.294,"text":"十三委員 羅明財等領據中科學校法第四十四條條文修正草案 凝加教育及文化委員會審查宣傳閉十四委員 羅明財等領據高級中等教育法第五十八條條文修正草案 凝加教育及文化委員會審查宣傳閉十五委員 羅明財等領據大學法第三十五條條文修正草案 凝加教育及文化委員會審查宣傳閉"},{"start":6431.015,"end":6446.748,"text":"16.委員羅明超等你據預算法增訂第81條之1條草案你交財政委員會審查宣傳B報告委員會第16案現在由國民黨團體金富二讀與相關提案並案協商請委員會有異議沒有異議本案金富二讀與相關提案並案協商下議案"},{"start":6447.944,"end":6469.438,"text":"十七 委員葛如君等領據中科學校法第四十四條條文修正草案 擬交教育及文化委員會審查宣傳並十八 委員葛如君等領據大學法第三十五條條文修正草案 擬交教育及文化委員會審查宣傳並十九 委員葛如君等領據高級中等教育法第五十八條條文修正草案 擬交教育及文化委員會審查宣傳並"},{"start":6470.579,"end":6492.253,"text":"二十 委員林謙祺等領據電信管理法第36條條文修正草案 擬交交通委員會審查宣傳令二十一 委員林謙祺等領據律師法徵定第35條之1條文草案 擬交司法及法治委員會審查宣傳令二十二 委員林謙祺等領據中華民國刑法刪除第48條條文草案 擬交司法及法治委員會審查宣傳令"},{"start":6493.835,"end":6508.796,"text":"23.委員林千祺等你具《兒童及少年福利與權益保障法》第27條條文修正草案你將社會福利及衛生環境委會審查宣戰令24.委員林千祺等你具《就業保險法》第12條條文修正草案你將社會福利及衛生環境委會審查宣戰令"},{"start":6509.637,"end":6534.127,"text":"二十五委員廖偉祥等你具性別平等工作法第十六條條文修正草案你將社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣告令二十六委員廖偉祥等你具性別平等工作法第十九條條文修正草案你將社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣告令二十七委員廖偉祥等你具性別平等工作法第二十條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案你將社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣告令"},{"start":6534.867,"end":6549.136,"text":"二十八 委員 邱正均等女巨 廢棄物 清理法 部分條文 修正草案 理財 社會福利及 陌生環境委員會審查 宣告略二十九 委員 邱正均等女巨 基源回收 照例案法 修正草案 理財 社會福利及 陌生環境委員會審查 宣告略"},{"start":6550.117,"end":6572.34,"text":"三十一委員徐宇貞等你據《中華民國刑法》第八十條條文修正常案你將司法及法治委員會審查宣傳閉三十一委員徐宇貞等你據《家庭暴力防治法》部分條文修正常案你將社會福利及衛生環境司法及法治兩委員會審查宣傳閉三十二委員羅廷威等你據《包集中等教育法》第二十條條文修正常案你將教育及公安委員會審查宣傳閉"},{"start":6573.801,"end":6588.605,"text":"3月3日委員羅廷威登臉據《標籍中等教育法》第58條條文修正草案擬交教育及文化委員會審查選擇案3月4日委員黃潔登臉據《總統副總統選舉罷免法》第11條及第23條條文修正草案擬交內政委員會審查選擇案3月5日委員黃潔登臉據《公職人員選舉罷免法》第14條條文修正草案擬交內政委員會審查選擇案"},{"start":6598.329,"end":6612.849,"text":"36.委員黃潔、鄧炳俊、海洋委員會海巡署組織法第3條及第11條條文修正草案,擬交司法執法制內政兩委會審查,宣戰略37.委員林耀勤、鄧炳俊、民法政定第197條之一條文草案,擬交司法執法制委員會審查,宣戰略"},{"start":6614.591,"end":6626.456,"text":"38.委員 林月琴等你據《兒童及少年性剝削防治條例》增訂第13條之一及第53條之二條文查案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境司法及法治兩位委會審查 宣導並39."},{"start":6626.456,"end":6633.618,"text":"委員 林月琴等你據《就業服務法》第5條第4條之第57條條文修正查案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委會審查 宣導並"},{"start":6635.399,"end":6662.762,"text":"四十五委員郭玉琴等女具非激務經理法部分條文修正草案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣託閉四十一委員郭玉琴等女具要事法部分條文修正草案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣託閉四十五委員郭玉琴等女具資源回收再利用法修正草案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣託閉四十三委員王振旭等女具就業服務法部分條文修正草案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣託閉"},{"start":6663.883,"end":6692.3,"text":"四十四委員王振旭等領據廢棄物清理法部份條文修正草案領交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣斷令四十五委員王振旭等領據資源回收再利用法修正草案領交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣斷令四十六委員武力華等領據原住民族教育法第十一條條文修正草案領交社會及文化內政兩委會審查宣斷令四十七委員武力華等領據私立學校法第六十二條條文修正草案領交社會及文化委員會審查宣斷令"},{"start":6694.16,"end":6719.93,"text":"4.8 臺灣民眾黨黨論 拟據《警察職權行使法》第八條條文修正常案 拟交內政委員會審查宣傳幣5.9 臺灣民眾黨黨論 拟據《動物保護法》部分條文修正常案 拟交經濟委員會審查宣傳幣5.10 臺灣民眾黨黨論 拟據《索德稅法》第十七條條文修正常案 拟交財政委員會審查宣傳幣5.11 臺灣民眾黨黨論 拟據《高級中等教育法》部分條文修正常案 拟交教育及網友委員會審查宣傳幣"},{"start":6721.471,"end":6746.13,"text":"五十二 臺灣民眾黨團 拟據道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正條案 拟交交通委員會審查宣傳病五十三 臺灣民眾黨團 拟據民法第1223條條文修正條案 拟交司法及法治委員會審查宣傳病抱怨會第五十三案 現在有臺灣民眾黨團提《金富二讀》相關提案並案協商 請人員會有異議沒有異議本案《金富二讀》相關提案並案協商 下議案"},{"start":6747.17,"end":6774.828,"text":"五四 臺灣民眾黨黨團 領據《就業保險法》第十六條及第十九條之二條文修正草案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣動閉五十五 臺灣民眾黨黨團 領據《尊嚴善忠法》草案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣動閉五十六 行政院司法院函錢審印《中華民國刑法》第八十條條文修正草案及《中華民國刑法》實行法第八條之二條文修正草案 擬交司法及法治委員會審查 宣動閉五十六 行政院司法院函錢審"},{"start":6775.228,"end":6801.808,"text":"五十七 行政院司法院函清審議中華民國刑法第211條及212條條文修正草案 擬交司法及法治委員會審查 宣短並五十八 行政院司法院函清審議中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案及中華民國刑法施行法增定第9條之5條文草案 擬交司法及法治委員會審查 宣短並五十九 行政院司法院函清審議中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案 擬交司法及法治委員會審查 宣短並"},{"start":6803.396,"end":6806.642,"text":"通過包園會本次會議報告事項記載於議事錄順序我們授權議事處進行調整現在繼續處理原列報告事項請宣讀第二"},{"start":6814.164,"end":6834.291,"text":"2.委員 劉建國等你據強化防衛任性及不對稱戰略計畫採訪特別條例草案 理責外交及國防財政兩委會審查宣斷並報告事項第二案 現在由民進黨黨團替金富二讀與相關提案並案協商請委員會有無異議沒有異議 本案金富二讀 相關提案並案協商 下議案"},{"start":6836.373,"end":6842.477,"text":"3.委員劉建國等你據《中華民國刑法》第33條條文修正草案擬交司法及法治委員會審查宣傳令4."},{"start":6842.477,"end":6850.463,"text":"委員劉建國等你據《刑事訴訟法》第264條條文修正草案擬交司法及法治委員會審查宣傳令5."},{"start":6850.463,"end":6857.367,"text":"委員劉建國等你據《立法院組織法》第24條條文修正草案擬交司法及法治委員會審查宣傳令6."},{"start":6857.367,"end":6865.072,"text":"委員劉建國等你據《海洋委員會海巡署組織法》第3條及第11條條文修正草案擬交司法及法治內政兩委會審查宣傳令"},{"start":6866.353,"end":6886.891,"text":"七 委員劉建國等領據資源回收再利用法修正草案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣轉並八 委員吳秉瑞等領據稅捐基金法第二條條文修正草案 擬交財政委員會審查 宣轉並九 委員吳秉瑞等領據證券交易稅條例第二條之一條文修正草案 擬交財政委員會審查 宣轉並"},{"start":6888.252,"end":6900.9,"text":"10.委員陳順岳等你據《大陸交通管理處罰條例》第9條條文修正草案你將交通委員會審查宣傳並11.委員李博義等你據《賓州管理條例》第24條條文修正草案你將內政委員會審查宣傳並12.委員李博義等你據《台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例》第18條之1條文修正草案你將內政委員會審查宣傳並"},{"start":6910.586,"end":6933.397,"text":"十三 委員一人之人 領據《就業保險法》第十組條之一條維修正常案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣戰片十四 委員紅夢凱等 領據《偏遠地區學校教育發展條例》第七條條維修正常案 擬交教育及文化委員會審查宣戰片十五 委員紅夢凱等 領據《家庭暴力防治法》部分條維修正常案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境施法及法治兩委員會審查宣戰片"},{"start":6934.497,"end":6962.436,"text":"十六委員 侯孟凱等女居 作為保險法第十二條及第十九條之一條文修正常案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣斷並十七委員 張瑞雄等女居 中華民國刑法增電第六三條之一條文修正常案 擬交司法及法治委員會審查 宣斷並十八委員 郭益勤等女居 性別平等教育法部分條文修正常案 擬交教育及外匯委員會審查 宣斷並十九委員 徐巧欣等女居 政府採報法第八二七條條文修正常案 擬交交通委委會審查"},{"start":6964.717,"end":6977.046,"text":"二十一委員徐巧欣等女居政府採購法第九十八條文修正草案你家交通委員會審查宣動令二十二委員徐巧欣等女居就業服務法第二十四條文修正草案你家社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣動令"},{"start":6985.672,"end":6999.219,"text":"二十三委員徐巧欣等女居就業服務法第五十五條條文修正草案擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查二十四委員牛許廷等女居就業保險法部分條文修正草案擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查"},{"start":7000.72,"end":7021.026,"text":"二十五委員 吳立華等你具就業服務法第二四條及五十二條條文修正草案擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣傳幣二十六國民黨黨聯盟團你具預算法增訂第八十一條之一條文草案擬交財政委員會審查宣傳幣委員會第二十六案國民黨團體進服二讀相關提案並且商全員會有異議"},{"start":7022.335,"end":7049.42,"text":"免疫本案進步二讀 相關提案並案 協商 下議案二十七 國民黨黨團擬據所得說法第十七條條文修正常案擬交財政委員會審查宣傳幣二十八 委員擬議情等擬據國家情報工作法第三條 第五條及第十三條之一條文修正常案擬交外交及國安法委員會審查宣傳幣依通過抱怨會第二十九案經確認議程不予列案請繼續宣讀第三十案"},{"start":7050.484,"end":7072.713,"text":"三十五委員核心存等理據學校衛生法第六條及第十六條條文修正常案擬交教育及公安委員會審查宣布案例三十一委員核心存等理據中華民國刑法第八十條條文修正常案擬交司法及法治委員會審查宣布案例三十二委員核心存等理據中華民國刑法施行法第八條之二條文修正常案擬交司法及法治委員會審查宣布案例"},{"start":7073.953,"end":7095.865,"text":"3.3委員核心存等理據入海空軍刑法第24條條文修正條案 擬交司法及法制外交及國防兩委會審查宣傳令3.4委員核心存等理據個人資料保護委員會組織法條案 擬交司法及法制經濟兩委會審查宣傳令3.5委員陳培鈺等理據兒童及少年福利與權益保障法部分條文修正條案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣傳令"},{"start":7098.007,"end":7112.745,"text":"36.委員林柱英等領居道路交通管理處罰條例第9條及45條條文修正法案 寧交交通委員會審查宣傳並37.委員楊耀等領居藝術教育法第17條條文修正法案 寧交教育及文案委員會審查宣傳並"},{"start":7114.307,"end":7140.718,"text":"3月8日委員 養藥等領居護理人員法第六條及第九條條文修正常案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查案 宣斷並3月9日委員 養藥等領居身心障礙者權益保障法第38條條文修正常案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查案 宣斷並官員會第39案 現在有民進黨黨團體輕負二讀與相關提案並案協商 全院會有異議面議本案輕負二讀與相關提案並案協商 下議案"},{"start":7141.545,"end":7150.053,"text":"事實委員楊耀等凝聚兒童及少年未來教育發展帳戶條例第六條條文修正常案擬交社會福利及維生環境委員會審查宣斷畢"},{"start":7156.448,"end":7173.716,"text":"41.委員養育等領據《勞動基準法》第30條之一第49條及第79條條文修正常案擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣傳幣42.委員圖捐基金領據《少年事件處理法》部分條文修正常案擬交司法及法治委員會審查宣傳幣"},{"start":7175.697,"end":7184.424,"text":"4.委員圖全基等女具農田水利會組織通則部分條文修正常案擬交司法及法制經濟兩委會審查宣傳令4."},{"start":7184.424,"end":7189.488,"text":"委員羅志強等女具駐作權法第三條及第五十一條之一條文修正常案擬交經濟委員會審查宣傳令"},{"start":7192.19,"end":7215.891,"text":"45委員 羅志強等女居 高級中等教育法第20條及第32條 運修正常案 拟交教育及文化委員會審查 宣同併可以通過下議案46委員 羅志強等女居 監獄刑刑法部分調 運修正常案 拟交司法及法治委員會審查 宣同併可以通過下議案47委員 羅志強等女居 人體研究法第6條第12條及第14條 運修正常案 拟交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣同併可以通過下議案"},{"start":7216.431,"end":7231.197,"text":"4月8日委員 羅志強等女居性別評論工作法第19條條文修正條案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查4月9日委員 羅志強等女居兒童及少年福利與權益保障法第27條條文修正條案 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查"},{"start":7232.938,"end":7257.169,"text":"五十一委員吳佩儀等你據行事訴訟法第十七條第二十六條及一百三十四條之一條文修正條案你將司法及法治委員會審查宣傳片五十一委員吳佩儀等你據總統副總統選舉報名法第十一條及第二十三條條文修正條案你將內政委員會審查宣傳片五十二委員吳佩儀等你據公職人員選舉報名法第十四條條文修正條案你將內政委員會審查宣傳片"},{"start":7258.129,"end":7279.069,"text":"五四委員吳佩玉等領據教師法第25條條文修正常案理教教育及文化委員會審查五四委員吳佩玉等領據偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第15條條文修正常案理教教育及文化委員會審查五四委員吳佩玉等領據學校衛生法第6條條文修正常案理教教育及文化委員會審查五四委員吳佩玉等領據"},{"start":7280.39,"end":7287.235,"text":"56.委員林思明等領據《性別平等工作法》第16條及第19條條文修正草案李昭社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查"},{"start":7289.673,"end":7317.894,"text":"五十七委員林思明等你具身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正常案擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣討並五十八委員張雅玲等你具氣象法修正常案擬交交通委員會審查宣討並五十九委員張雅玲等你具國家安全法部分條文修正常案擬交內政委員會審查宣討並五十八委員張雅玲等你具國家安全法部分條文修正常案擬交內政委員會審查宣討並五十八委員張雅玲等你具國家安全法部分條文修正常案擬交內政委員會審查宣討並五十八委員張雅�"},{"start":7319.025,"end":7344.441,"text":"六十二 內政部修正消防機具器材及設備登錄機構規費收費標準你交內政委員會宣轉筆六十三 經濟部修正科技產業園區管理費規費及服務費收費標準第二條第四條及第十四條條文你交經濟委員會宣轉筆六十四 農業部含送實驗動物資來源與適用範圍及管理辦法你交經濟委員會宣轉筆"},{"start":7346.722,"end":7352.884,"text":"65.農業部修正公告美國威斯康辛中致高病原性家庭流行性感冒非疫區刪除,你將經濟委員會宣通閉66."},{"start":7352.884,"end":7357.745,"text":"農業部修正農業部農田水利署宜蘭管理處農田水利事業區域,你將經濟委員會宣通閉67."},{"start":7357.745,"end":7364.866,"text":"農業部修正農業部農田水利署北基管理處農田水利事業區域,你將經濟委員會宣通閉67."},{"start":7364.866,"end":7370.808,"text":"農業部修正農業部農田水利署北基管理處農田水利事業區域,你將經濟委員會宣通閉67."},{"start":7370.808,"end":7371.328,"text":"農業部修正農業部農田"},{"start":7372.236,"end":7393.636,"text":"六十八 農業部修正農業部農田水利署新竹管理處農田水利事業區域擬交經濟委員會宣團幣六十九 農業部修正農業部農田水利署台中管理處農田水利事業區域擬交經濟委員會宣團幣七十 農業部修正農業部農田水利署花蓮管理處農田水利事業區域擬交經濟委員會宣團幣"},{"start":7395.529,"end":7424.239,"text":"七十一 農業部修正產銷履歷養殖水產品驗證費用補助方式你交經紀委會宣傳並七十二 財政部修正外國特定專業人才減免所得稅辦法你交財政委會宣傳並七十三 交通部函送安平港國內航線或港區工程用之中華民國船舶不適用強制飲水辦法發布令附件及第一條條文刊物表你交交通委會宣傳並七十四 交通部函送"},{"start":7425.359,"end":7448.413,"text":"商港區域特定範圍擬交交通委員會宣傳幣75 交通部行為交通部馬灘安西堰社股災害受災戶車輛受損倒飛登記位住作業要點名稱修正為馬灘安西堰社股災害受災戶車輛受損倒飛登記位住作業要點並修正規定至114年10月7日生效擬交交通委員會宣傳幣"},{"start":7450.274,"end":7477.296,"text":"七十六 考試院修正公務人員特種考試司法人員考試規則第七條附表三及公務人員特種考試原住民族考試規則第六條附表十擬交司法及法治委員會宣傳並七十七 行政院修正中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三第一項第三款諒驗確認檢驗判定檢出圖品品相及濃度值並自一百十五年三月六日生效擬交司法及法治委員會宣傳並"},{"start":7478.957,"end":7507.231,"text":"七一八行政院修正陸海空軍刑法第五四條第一項第三款要確認檢驗判定檢出毒品品項及濃度值並自一百十五年三月六日生效擬交司法及法治外交及國防委員會宣傳閉七一九衛生福利部修正醫師法施行系的部分條文擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳閉七十九案台灣民眾黨團體國民黨團體改交審查方案交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查"},{"start":7509.551,"end":7524.228,"text":"八十 衛生福利部函頌援助民族被看護者聘僱外籍家庭看護工評估與認定方式擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳並法院會第八十案 國民黨團體改交審查本案交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 下一案"},{"start":7525.148,"end":7544.748,"text":"八十一 環境部修正物品回收清除處理費 機動車輛類費率 擬交社會福利及衛生環境委員會 宣傳日委員會我們八十二案到一百九十八案依序宣讀其中第一百八十一百八十一一百八十八一百九十一百九十八案台灣民眾黨團體改交審查"},{"start":7545.529,"end":7564.615,"text":"第八十三、一百二十二、一百二十三、一百二十九、一百三十、一百三十二、一百三十四、一百四十三案國民黨團體改交審查宣讀之後以上提案均改交相關委會審查其餘的議案均照議事處意見通過請問會有異議沒有異議我們宣讀之後通過請宣讀"},{"start":7566.567,"end":7595.396,"text":"第八十案至九十案國防部第九十一案至一百零七案國軍退出與官兵輔導委員會一百零八案至一百一四案行動監督管理委員會一一五案河南安全委員會一一六案運動部一一七案考選部一一八案至一二一案勞動部一二二案至一四案衛生福利部一四三案至一五一案環境部一五二案至一六一案教育部一六案交通部一六三案至一七七案衛生福利部一七八案及一七九案"},{"start":7596.316,"end":7623.049,"text":"勞動部180案至189案行政院觀光文化工程委員會190案至193案交通部194案農業部195案環境部196案內政部197案交通部198案內政部行為114年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算中央政府花蓮馬灘案西煙社湖災後重建特別預算等預算監獄分別簡訊相關報告宣傳"},{"start":7624.75,"end":7627.355,"text":"報議會第199案及諮詢事項一併宣讀,宣讀之後第199案遵與被查,請宣讀"},{"start":7633.137,"end":7657.51,"text":"第一九九案為本院人事錯函為本院第四屆全國不分區及僑居國外國民立法委員李貞秀喪失其所屬台灣民眾黨籍本院以依公職人員選舉報名法第七三條第二項之規定於一百十五年四月十三日註銷其立法委員名期質詢事項本院委員質詢不約份本院委員明才向行政院提出質詢供一件宣斷幣"},{"start":7659.922,"end":7682.408,"text":"報告事項處理完畢我們現在進行討論事項第一案本院民進黨黨團建請院會作成決議立法院堅定支持我國總統進行對外國事訪問嚴正譴責中共對第三國主權之公然干涉案請公決案請議事人員宣讀提案內容"},{"start":7683.953,"end":7697.744,"text":"本月民進黨黨團針對中華人民共和國政府今日透過外交脅迫與經濟施壓手段迫使塞席爾、馬達加斯加及摩里希斯三國無預警撤銷五國元首出訪專機之飛航許可"},{"start":7699.685,"end":7722.915,"text":"嚴重威脅飛行安全違反國際規範及慣例更破壞國際法所監視之國家平等與不公設原則公然挑戰國際秩序打壓我國走向世界之權利原始 建請委員會作成決議一 立法院不分朝野堅定支持我國總統進行國外國事訪問堅持台灣人有走向世界與世界各國交往合作的權利"},{"start":7724.316,"end":7738.633,"text":"2.嚴正譴責中華人民共和國以協和手段迫使第三國撤銷我國元首專機飛航許可之粗暴行為違反聯合國憲章國際民航公約精神外交關係規律並構成對第三國主權制功能干涉3."},{"start":7739.594,"end":7764.687,"text":"促請外交部、諸外管處、國際民航組織、ICAL之由我代表及所有可行管道將本事件列入國際紀錄且尋求國際民航組織、聯合國人權理事會等多邊基資資關注與因應並對中華人民共和國對我國長期積極不行為嚴禮完整之法律文件與政策白皮書與年度外交報告中專章說明是"},{"start":7765.407,"end":7778.332,"text":"呼籲世界上所有理念相競爭民主夥伴正視中華人民共和國對泰國實施經濟與外交協和之行為將其納入各國反協和之政策工具與立法檢討並以具體行動聲援我國維護正當國際交往之權利共同捍衛以國責為基礎之國際秩序"},{"start":7784.795,"end":7809.422,"text":"自由開放之國際航空體系以及中小型國家免於威權霸凌之主權空間中華民國是主權獨立的民主國家任何外部勢力之脅迫封鎖或打壓卻不能改變我國走向世界與民主夥伴並肩同行之決心本院全體委員將超越黨派立場團結一致捍衛國家主權民主自由與國際尊嚴是否有當自請公權宣傳的"},{"start":7825.528,"end":7837.761,"text":"謝謝法院會依照立法院職權刑事法第8條第3項規定本案經提案人說明提案子去大體討論之後,即議決交付審查或禁負二讀或不予審議"},{"start":7839.653,"end":7860.799,"text":"法院會依照黨團共識本案提案說明及大體討論不再發言現在由民進黨團提議禁覆二讀依照黨團共識本案禁覆二讀依據立法院職權新司法第74條之一規定交付黨團協商我們現在做以下決議交付黨團協商並由民進黨黨團負責召集協商"},{"start":7867.352,"end":7875.589,"text":"我們進入討論事項第二案娛樂稅法部分條文修正草案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":7876.909,"end":7900.583,"text":"本院財政委員會於113年4月22日115年4月15日舉行全體委員會議進行審查會議分別由羅召集委員明察及吳召集委員秉樂擔任主席財政部部長莊翠雲等分別應邀列席說明備詢與會委員於聽取說明詢談後對法案進行審查經照常委員充分溝通及協商將本案審查完略原金決議"},{"start":7901.664,"end":7902.465,"text":"我們現在請召集委員吳秉瑞委員請補充說明吳秉瑞委員請補充說明"},{"start":7924.49,"end":7934.776,"text":"吳秉瑞委員沒有補充說明我們現在本案經過審查會決議不需再交由黨團協商請問院會有異議沒有異議本案經審查會意見進行處理現在進行逐條討論一論稅法請宣讀第二條"},{"start":7939.909,"end":7961.139,"text":"第二條 娛樂稅就下列娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動所收票價或收費額徵收之一 舞廳或舞場二 高爾夫球場三 其他經財政部公告署提供娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動工人娛樂者請向各種娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動不收票券另以其他飲料品或娛樂設施供應娛樂人者按其收費額課徵娛樂稅"},{"start":7963.54,"end":7985.368,"text":"實銷市及縣市政府得視產業發展政策需要及財政狀況,提增第一項各款規定課稅項目之餘二稅,提經當定名一機關通過報財政部備查,其提增應定名實施期限並以達成合理之政策目的為限,宣讀完畢。照審查會條文通過,第四條為之現行條文,請宣讀第五條。"},{"start":7986.328,"end":8003.534,"text":"第五條 娛樂稅照所收票價或收費額依下列稅率計增之一 舞廳或舞場最高不得超過50%二 高爾夫球場最高不得超過20%三 其他經財政部公告署提供娛樂場所 娛樂設施或娛樂活動供人娛樂者最高不得超過25%宣傳B照審查會條文通過 請宣讀第六條"},{"start":8008.516,"end":8026.349,"text":"第六條直銷市及縣市政府得失地方實際情形在前條規定稅率發揚為內分別規定餘額稅徵收率提經當地民意機關通過報財政部被查選短幣照審查會條文通過請第八條第九條均維持現行條文請宣讀第十條"},{"start":8027.338,"end":8035.601,"text":"第十條 娛樂獸待證人應於待證時發給娛樂票作為憑證並與娛樂人持用入場時施斷否則已不為待證論處但依第九條第一項單書規定查訂客證者等免用娛樂票潛艇娛樂票應由主管急症機關核驗後使用但臨時舉辦之娛樂活動售票者應由負責人與舉辦前將票編號標明價格申請主管"},{"start":8052.648,"end":8080.731,"text":"主管集中機關驗印並辦妥納稅保證手續如期報找待徵稅款宣傳閉照審查會條文通過第十三條維持現行條文請宣讀第十七條第十七條遇到稅徵收息者由直轄市及縣市政府依本法訂定報財政部非查宣傳閉照審查會條文通過報院會全案已經經過二讀三個黨團分別提議繼續進行三讀請問院會有異議沒有異議我們宣讀經過二讀這條文"},{"start":8083.373,"end":8102.474,"text":"第二條娛樂稅就效率娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動所收票價或收費而徵收之一五庭或五場二高爾夫球場三其他經財政部公告所提供娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動供人娛樂者其三各種娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動不收票券另以其他飲料品或娛樂設施供應娛樂人者"},{"start":8104.136,"end":8122.559,"text":"按其收費而課徵娛樂稅直銷市及縣市政府的市產業發展政策需要及財政狀況提升第一項各款規定課稅項目之娛樂稅提經當地民營機關通過報財政部報查其停徵應定名實施期限並以達成合理之政策目的為限"},{"start":8125.663,"end":8143.285,"text":"第五條娛樂稅照所收票價或收費額以下列稅率計正之一五庭或五場最高不得超過百分之五十二高爾夫球場最高不得超過百分之二十三其他經財政部公告書提供娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動工人娛樂者最高不得超過百分之二十五"},{"start":8146.363,"end":8155.615,"text":"第六條直銷市及縣市政府得視地方實際情形在前頭規定稅率範圍內分別規定旅客稅徵收率提經當地民意機關通過報財政部被查"},{"start":8158.328,"end":8182.055,"text":"第十條 娛樂稅代徵人應於代徵時發給娛樂票作為憑證並與娛樂人使用入場時施斷否則已不為代徵論處但依第九條第一項單數規定查定客徵者等免用娛樂票請向娛樂票由主管基金機關核驗或使用但與臨時舉辦之娛樂活動售票者應由負責人於舉辦前將票編號標明價格申請主管基金機關驗印並辦妥納稅保證手續如期報繳代徵稅款"},{"start":8189.349,"end":8208.628,"text":"第十七條 娛樂稅徵收細則由直轄市及縣市政府依本法訂定 報財政部被查 宣讀完畢參議會三讀條文已經宣讀完畢 請問議員會有文字修正沒有文字修正 我們現在來做以下決議娛樂稅法第二條 第五條 第六條 第十條及第十七條條文修正通過"},{"start":8210.629,"end":8219.008,"text":"我們現在進行本案完成立法程序後的委員登記發言並截止發言登記首先請林楚英委員發言 劉書斌委員請準備"},{"start":8230.722,"end":8247.709,"text":"謝謝主席以及我們在場的立法院同仁本席非常開心就是今天在立法院通過了前面兩項討論案第一個當然就是我們朝野一致達成共識就是對於中共阻撓我們的賴清德總統出訪這樣的行為與譴責雖然說這是由"},{"start":8250.39,"end":8274.732,"text":"民進黨團所提案但是剛剛我們看到的不論是國民黨團或是民眾黨團也都一致沒有發表任何異議同樣的現在有關於娛樂稅法的三讀通過其實本席也非常開心那是因為本席在上一屆財政委員會的時候就針對娛樂稅法來提出修正只可惜屆期不連續而今天此時此刻的三讀代表了就是一個"},{"start":8275.493,"end":8291.141,"text":"新的里程碑把一個過去84年前的舊制度讓它走進歷史未來在修法之後我們看電影看表演聽音樂會看球賽正式免科娛樂稅這個完全是符合現在"},{"start":8291.621,"end":8308.874,"text":"全民的一個方向以及需求而這也代表著我們用舊時代的觀念把它拋棄人民日常文化與運動再不是所謂的奢侈行為沒有必要多科娛樂稅而另外這一部法律也保留了把舞廳"},{"start":8309.995,"end":8327.775,"text":"武場高爾夫球及其他沒有公告的娛樂事項由地方政府來依法課收稅收兼顧了制度以及地方財政的需求所以這有三個意義第一是完成稅制合理化第二是支持"},{"start":8328.756,"end":8352.407,"text":"體育與文化發展第三當然最重要的也就是減輕人民負擔今天的修法我也期望是一個好的發展未來只要是維護國家尊嚴守護人民利益保障人民福祉都可以達到朝野黨團達成共識我也相信今天兩個討論的提案就是立法院最好的證明謝謝"},{"start":8354.287,"end":8357.992,"text":"謝謝林祖英委員的發言接下來我們請劉書斌委員發言黃婕委員請準備"},{"start":8379.917,"end":8403.018,"text":"謝謝主席 各位同仁 全體國民今天我們在立法院共同見證的娛樂稅法自民國31年制定以來最具時代意義的一項變革象徵著從管制思維走向鼓勵參與邁向文化 體育與民生並重的新時代"},{"start":8404.179,"end":8428.811,"text":"過去八十年來餘熱稅被視為是一種對奢侈消費的懲罰但在2026年的今天我們看一場職棒聽一場演唱會或者是陪家人看電影早已是民眾的剛性需求我們不應該用過時的稅制來束縛台灣蓬勃發展的軟實力"},{"start":8430.692,"end":8453.258,"text":"本次修法有三項的核心價值第一是還利於民刪除了電影演唱會 體育競賽的娛樂稅直接減輕了民眾的負擔讓藝文跟體育走向了人民的生活第二 賦稅 賦權地方"},{"start":8455.659,"end":8473.532,"text":"授權地方政府是產業需求停徵或者是得以減徵特定項目讓各縣市都能更有彈性地爭取國際巨星或是大型的賽事落腳地方第三 要擺動產業透過減稅的誘因鼓勵業者能夠回饋票價進而擴大藝文與體育產業的市場規模"},{"start":8482.711,"end":8505.552,"text":"今天三讀通過的不是改革的終點我們會將嚴格的監督確保這樣的減稅的紅令能夠實質的反映在票價跟消費價格上讓全民的共享到這修法的成果謝謝大家好 謝謝劉淑斌委員的發言 謝謝接下來我們請黃婕委員發言張志倫委員請準備"},{"start":8517.022,"end":8538.625,"text":"好今天這個娛樂稅法的修正草案通過我真的非常非常的開心因為我從擔任議員時期就不斷的在關注這個娛樂稅法存費的議題那我一直認為說娛樂稅法非常的不合時宜那很高興在朝野共同的努力之下終於把這個不合時宜的稅務來刪除部分了"},{"start":8539.085,"end":8559.036,"text":"那未來這個運動跟體育運動跟藝文相關的活動就可以免徵娛樂稅這個對相關的產業藝文產業運動產業來說意義非常非常的重大那這個早期要求人民節約禁收的條例在今天來看真的是非常的不適宜因為看一場電影聽一場音樂會演唱會"},{"start":8562.178,"end":8577.865,"text":"進場看球賽是我們國人生活的日常那文化跟運動也都是國力的展現所以這個絕對不是什麼必須要奢侈的行為那甚至現在政府我們也編列了大筆的預算來努力的扶持藝文產業跟運動產業就是希望說這些軟實力"},{"start":8581.707,"end":8596.617,"text":"能夠來展現台灣的國家的實力所以呢在2024年我們已經看到說娛樂稅的稅收佔地方政府僅佔了0.13%左右所以對於地方財政的影響也非常非常的有限了"},{"start":8597.017,"end":8622.143,"text":"所以希望說今天只是階段性的目標未來藝文跟運動項目刪除之後呢未來可以長期的目標應該是幫地方政府找到這個還有地方政府自己找到替代性的裁員之後可以全面的廢除娛樂稅包括高爾夫球都已經是奧運項目了但是仍然沒有辦法被刪除這應該要讓可以徹底的走入歷史"},{"start":8622.603,"end":8635.533,"text":"所以希望未來長久不久的將來娛樂說法可以完全消失在台灣的歷史當中謝謝謝謝黃婕委員的發言接下來我們最後一位登記發言張志倫委員請發言主席"},{"start":8648.891,"end":8668.989,"text":"各位同仁感謝草委立委共同支持娛樂說法的修正草案今天在順利三讀通過讓台灣邁向文化新國以及未來體育大國的重要里程碑長期以來電影藝文展演跟體育賽事早已是"},{"start":8669.97,"end":8685.451,"text":"國人精神生活的一部分也是現代人壓力下抒壓的非常好的一個活動然而在過去的制度下政府一方面編列預算提供補助鼓勵產業發展另一方面又用過時"},{"start":8686.833,"end":8705.819,"text":"的稅制來課徵相關稅負左手給補助右手收稅款的政策矛盾不但抵消了政策扶植的成效讓長期在基層奮鬥的藝文工作者與體育團體面臨沉重的行政壓力以及稅務負擔"},{"start":8707.259,"end":8731.332,"text":"透過本次修法我們正式取消了這種不合時宜項目的科稅解決政府在政策上自相矛盾的困境正視了產業未來重要的發展未來表演團體跟賽事主辦方可以用原本繳的稅金轉化為提升演出品質提升硬體軟體的認真的投資讓優質的文化環境"},{"start":8734.233,"end":8750.29,"text":"跟競技體驗可以回饋給全體國人本行也期待相關業者可以將免稅的實質的效益反映在票價調整跟服務提升上讓廣大的消費者可以真正的受惠"},{"start":8751.111,"end":8771.956,"text":"達成弧弱消費市場以及促進產業發展的雙贏局面未來本席也將持續關心相關的配套措施的實施情形確保這份還利於民扶植文藝的修法精神可以徹底落實謝謝大家好 謝謝張志倫委員的發言報言會"},{"start":8774.409,"end":8787.943,"text":"现在所有发言登记委员发言已经发言完毕我们讨论事项已经处理完毕上午的会议进行到此为止下午2点30分继续开会进行经济组织咨询现在休息"},{"start":11090.162,"end":11090.589,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":18309.957,"end":18319.871,"text":"好 座院長各位 列席閣議員午安我們現在 包園會我們繼續開會對行政院長施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢今天我們進行經濟組織質詢首先我們請廖偉強委員質詢圖圈及委員請準備"},{"start":18337.223,"end":18363.682,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝韓院長有請卓榮泰院長麻煩請卓院長備詢廖文豪院長好院長我想你是跨部會的指揮官相信接下來問題你大概都可以能夠親自回答那院長請問一下今年10月電價漲不漲"},{"start":18366.361,"end":18387.343,"text":"委員應該清楚電價都是意思是電價審議委員會最終的決定我們只能評估現在的狀況但是這個審議委員會其實也是你們行政院組的嘛那委員也是你們大概也是你們提名的那我想院長你總有一個方向吧因為過去其實你們說一聲漲或不漲大概方向也是這樣子"},{"start":18388.103,"end":18403.534,"text":"各有其責各失其職我們當然希望民生穩定工業也能夠穩定這是整個社會對我們的期待謝謝 院長因為你剛有提到要穩定物價所以現況就是這樣中油4月份對電業的用戶企價調漲41.58%每立方公尺從13.2元也漲到18.7元也是電業史上最大的漲幅"},{"start":18413.641,"end":18428.616,"text":"那首當其衝當然是台電那央行的3月的禮監事會也已經把2026年的CPI上修至1.8那3月份的核心CPI是1.94%畢竟2%的警戒線所以央行自己也試算"},{"start":18430.037,"end":18452.65,"text":"電價每漲10%推升CPI0.36個百分點所以油電價跟CPI是連提因式的雙升曲線所以我就是想要問因為你今天院方你們也宣布說這個統裝瓦斯不漲價那我就想請問一下說那10月份的電價不知道院長你究竟是支持漲價還是不支持漲價"},{"start":18454.651,"end":18478.67,"text":"確定的是9月之前不漲價沒有人會在沒有條件之下去支持或不支持一件事情總之控制在CPI2%這個是我們的一個目標目前雖然他往上調但是你也知道這兩三個月來的狀況是特別特別的緊張好 院長因為你現在沒有辦法明確的表達沒有錯你的意思就是說你不能確定因為剛好我們是"},{"start":18480.621,"end":18493.973,"text":"充分的資料給審議委員會委員了解說實際的狀況最後決定還是他們好 部長 白蘭西院長因為其實你們經濟部次長之前也親口說如果戰爭三個月內結束十月的電價調漲壓力比較小"},{"start":18496.215,"end":18517.97,"text":"可是今天已經4月24號其實4週已經過去了離3個月的時間也只剩下不到9個禮拜那布蘭特原油也衝上100塊以上所以停火停不住那油價到現在也還在漲那剩下9週要怎麼結束所以我覺得這3個月的這個所謂的平行宇宙的時間表真的是"},{"start":18518.65,"end":18539.791,"text":"讓我們很擔憂啊那連川普自己都說到11月油價會維持在高檔那就算明天的戰事結束所謂的LNG的長約跟聯動的油價也有遞延的效果所以從這個二五戰爭的前例歐洲的這個天然氣也花了整整兩年才回到一定的水平而且不是三個月"},{"start":18540.291,"end":18561.806,"text":"所以我想這個問題是一個很結構性的問題那我也想問一下關心一下說那現在這個相關的原油有什麼樣的進展一個具體的事情請教就是這個台塑的軍扇輪這個200萬桶的原油說大概5月6號到達台灣那你們當初大動作有新聞宣傳說這個可能有"},{"start":18562.946,"end":18589.613,"text":"兩週的時間那我想要請問一下行政院有沒有掌握這批這批原油呢他是確定在內銷還有沒有準有沒有說不能他外銷這部分想要請問一下因為畢竟他是私人公司我請部長來說明他原則性說我們對油的掌握目前安全存量比較高是沒有大問題的那比較緊張是天然氣但是我們到六月之前也都沒有問題細部的規劃我想我想請問一下這兩百萬桶原油因為我們現在戰爭已經"},{"start":18592.094,"end":18618.504,"text":"一個多月了嘛那我們原來油品的部分我們的這個儲備量都有140天那也都沒有減少所以這200萬桶原油我想要請教不好意思我們有跟台塑有跟他聯絡嗎是不是以國內供應為主原則上以國內為主好那我想要另外再請教一個問題因為當初也有說過這個和睦之海峽要收過路費那你們有沒有掌握這艘船他有付過路費嗎"},{"start":18620.306,"end":18644.267,"text":"這個我們現在就沒有你們不曉得你們沒有掌握我們確定就是說它進來的量可以優先使用在國內然後呢四月份五月份該進來的部分至少四月份的四條的這個原油的進來的船已經都到港了所以也沒有問題那五月份也陸續會到港按照這個時程對因為我們現在看到的事情是這個原油價格"},{"start":18644.847,"end":18655.16,"text":"一定一路高檔次再到年底啊所以我們很擔心民眾的生活所以你們今天也提出說要計程車要補貼六千元對不對"},{"start":18656.087,"end":18671.439,"text":"你們今天有提出嘛可是本席想要說的事情是我們不反對但是現在的這個所有的不管是油價、瓦斯器、民生全部都在漲那我想要請問一下那一樣的用油的外送員物流業、小貨車業一樣繳電費的攤商、夜市家庭"},{"start":18675.282,"end":18695.396,"text":"我覺得這個是全面性的衝擊啊所以本席想要建議行政院的應變應該是一個全方位的包含這些中產甚至弱勢邊緣戶受衝擊的產業跟家庭都要接得住不是單就部分的職業我們應該是全方位的一個這個預算去支持他們"},{"start":18695.996,"end":18714.403,"text":"所以我想要問一下因為今天早上我也看到新聞行政院也有發言人也有說中央政府要推出民生物價的平穩措施整體的裁員上在盤整將事實對外說明想要請問一下什麼時候然後你們盤整大概是什麼方向請院長回答"},{"start":18715.439,"end":18731.257,"text":"就是針對各部會目前所受到的產業的衝擊正在做更細部的規劃那麼昨天提出的是我們對一些大宗運輸的事業首先來做一些補貼因為它的價錢是不能浮動的"},{"start":18731.838,"end":18760.541,"text":"所以他的支出負擔重了就是產業所以有沒有時程表不好意思院長你們大概有沒有什麼時程表你說各個部會去盤點那盤點到什麼時候主計處主計這個主計長也有說這個這次的能源衝擊大約說衝擊需要1300億那想要請問一下這個盤點這算是盤點完的價格嗎金額嗎還是那是各部會送出來的一個出估那我們還要看各部會之間的一個橫向的一個協調有些可能可以互相的支援"},{"start":18761.061,"end":18779.712,"text":"那什麼時間呢我認為最好的時間就是我們評估完之後能不能用現在的公務預算或是現在先行之前的那個特別預算來用如果我們必須再追加預算的話那必須就是在大院審查預算結束之後"},{"start":18780.572,"end":18796.754,"text":"再提出是合理如果還沒有審查完我們提出大院也能夠接受那我們也可以把事實的計算之後來提出最佳因素這本席就是要告訴你說這個時間要快一般的民眾現在真的是等不起現在就在漲民眾是等不起的那我也請"},{"start":18797.515,"end":18819.889,"text":"大約那個審查預算的速度快一點因為你剛剛有說到還有其他特別預算那你還要盤點嘛所以你們盤點的速度然後以及到時候提出的方案也請儘速提出來好不好我們都來加快那另外我想要進一步來問一下我們國家的這個新十大的AI建設我想要"},{"start":18821.304,"end":18848.61,"text":"我拜讀過你們的新十大建設的核定本那四年1900億裡面有所謂的智慧交通、智慧防災、智慧觀光、智慧醫療也都在裡面那昨天呢4月23號速發部的資安署認定說這個高德地圖是危害國家資通安全的產品所以公務機關跟國軍都已經禁用那民用層級的部分你們是呼籲說民眾不要下載你們說5月才可以公布完整的資安評測"},{"start":18849.85,"end":18864.218,"text":"那在這個不管是圖資或者是國安的考量上我們是尊重行政院的立場但是站在民眾的立場上面你們呼籲民眾不要用我想是沒有用的因為關鍵是你有沒有辦法有一個更好用的APP"},{"start":18865.078,"end":18882.602,"text":"那現在這個地圖整合了所謂AI紅綠燈辨識AI智慧導航AI街景建模那院長你們這裡有說到4年1900億的AI新十大建設會整合出一個比高德更好用的民用APP給台灣人用嗎我現在我就用Google Map"},{"start":18883.038,"end":18901.063,"text":"不是 我是說那現在Google Map就是沒有辦法滿足這些相關的需求嘛所以我剛剛就問說你們呼籲人家不要用但是民間的反應就是說覺得它很好用所以重點是我們有沒有你的這新時代AI建設裡面有沒有可以有辦法扶植出一個這樣子的好用的民用的APP"},{"start":18901.423,"end":18916.382,"text":"新十大AI新十大建設我們有十項的項目在裡面其中最頂端那一項就是加強我們的軟體登峰我們必須把軟體做得更好目前在處理有做出來比他更好用的民用APP嗎"},{"start":18917.023,"end":18939.131,"text":"我不能夠馬上說一定會做出一個類似這樣的APP但是地圖的APP我們現在就有其他可以安全使用的院長因為我有看到你們在這個裡面的十大建設裡面有所謂智慧交通緊急車輛救援還有智慧景區精準天候預測然後哪一項是在哪一項裡面你們會在哪一項裡面去做這件事情"},{"start":18940.488,"end":18955.641,"text":"這個部分的話跟委員報告就是說這個部分會屬於AI軟體產業登峰這一塊那這一塊其實是跟我們的那個全民社會生活全是連結在一起的所以速發部會全力的來開發很多的那個APP軟體所以你們有沒有信心做得比他更好"},{"start":18957.534,"end":18983.589,"text":"這個我們會有信心那我也會你會有信心我會跟蘇發部一起來協調好 院長真的要做到因為既然政府認定高德是境外敵對勢力的產品那我們就不能讓中國大陸的APP做得比我們國家自己的APP更好用我想這是民間的競爭力也是國家的尊嚴所以我想要講到你所謂的AI的部分要做這樣的APP要有"},{"start":18984.809,"end":19005.51,"text":"運轉的AI要有算力要有電那台灣政府的算力到底準備有多少呢我想要直接告訴你這個還要另外再問一件事情也是關於時事的部分等一下會一併來討論這個AI今天還有一件事情川普公開點名台灣說美國要取得全球50%的晶片市場"},{"start":19006.29,"end":19033.808,"text":"而台灣是最大宗的來源他已經讓台積電承諾1650億美元要赴美美光承諾2000億總共要1兆美元投資到美國那一年半以後對於這個不到美國設廠的晶片公司課予極高的關稅所以想要問一下院長針對這個新聞川普講的這個東西行政院怎麼看打算怎麼因應第一由此可見台灣的重要性"},{"start":19034.793,"end":19053.307,"text":"我們在這種晶片製造上的重要性再來台灣會繼續站在最領先的地位不論是它的值或是量台灣永遠站在最領先的地位第三我們跟美方現在進行三立一的調查很多的過程我們在當中我們必須清楚的說明台灣最有利於雙邊的一些立場"},{"start":19054.178,"end":19073.419,"text":"院長你可以看到這張圖喔其實我想我們是非常擔憂的啊這黃仁勛也說過五層蛋糕啊好第一層最下面是能源再來是晶片再來雲端再來模型再來應用結果我們現在製造的第二層蛋糕正在被挖走當中並沒有被在台灣邀我們去那邊設好"},{"start":19075.681,"end":19082.806,"text":"台積公司在台灣設廠的速度跟量我想未來委員會更清楚這五層蛋糕剛剛中間這層晶片現在已經被要求大量的去美國設廠"},{"start":19090.572,"end":19104.762,"text":"但是我們的算力呢我們算力有沒有辦法跟上呢想要問一下一個很殘酷的事實台灣最會賺錢的公司就是我們剛說台積電正在賣算力給全世界但是我們有準備好嗎台灣的政府有沒有算力可以買"},{"start":19105.723,"end":19120.582,"text":"台積電在資本支出它一年在2026年它是大概560億美元左右在新台幣1.6兆到1.7兆左右它一間的資本支出是台灣政府AI新十大建設4年1900億的8到9倍"},{"start":19122.945,"end":19147.723,"text":"那現在大家都很關心所謂的AI的Token算力喔那所以包含回答的工程師他說黃仁勛說如果年薪50萬美金他要用至少用到25萬美金的Token才可以算是有賺錢而且越用越多每一次運算就是會賺錢然後每一次運算也都需要電所以院長你知道各國政府現在在AI算力上面做了些什麼事嗎"},{"start":19149.145,"end":19174.07,"text":"我們也有自己算力的建設在AI新時代建設裡面有嗎?有啊我想要告訴你看起來比較起來是遠遠不夠因為英國4月才剛啟動說5億的這個約合新台幣大概200億的主權AI基金新加坡也紮了約新台幣將近40億、30億來補助中小企業買雲端算力"},{"start":19174.77,"end":19198.72,"text":"那韓國呢2月也首批的這個有4300多片的GPU到貨那2030年他打算要26萬片共同的一個點就是這幾個政府都希望政府先把企業接上算力把政府把企業接上算力好那我們台灣呢現在看起來我們只有算力只有140片GPU那這個量級到底夠不夠呢"},{"start":19199.72,"end":19204.463,"text":"我們在2028年的時候公部門加市部門的話我們大概會有算力會有131,912.6的PF那針對這個公部門的部分我們是不是應該建樹先提供給企業"},{"start":19217.89,"end":19246.869,"text":"公部門加私部門那私部門的話大概就是鴻海這個部分的話在2028年會大概9萬左右院長和各位行政官員我想要說的事情就是其實剛剛說到最幾層算力來自於電力之前我想院長也很清楚電力跟算力跟國力所以現在各個國家政府都領先的在衝刺去買雲端的算力我們是不是應該先去預購這些雲端算力回來"},{"start":19247.99,"end":19274.358,"text":"我們是不是應該先準備起來所以短期的部分是不是應該雲端先再加大的預購然後企業現在就能用或學術單位就能用那當然中長期我們要好謝謝廖偉強委員質詢謝謝卓院長相關部會所長備詢謝謝"},{"start":19289.614,"end":19308.483,"text":"接下來請圖全傑委員質詢翁曉琳委員請準備好現在請我們左院長還有我們龔副長再請左院長經濟部長備選"},{"start":19318.769,"end":19347.243,"text":"都委員好都委員好好謝謝今天雖然是經濟組的質詢那文化部長沒有在可是這個部分還是要請我們院長跟部長在經費編列的部分來幫我們幫忙那我們先大家來回顧一下我們針對我們之前有一個文化藝術獎祝條例那在民國110年我們那時候就三讀立法修正成為文化藝術獎祝"},{"start":19348.463,"end":19374.844,"text":"及促進條例這個新法在同年的5月19號我們就公告實施那這差別最大的影響就在新法的第15條也就是舊法的第9條它由重大工程因設置公共藝術從公有建築物造價的1%變為新法的重大公共工程造價1%也就是說之前是"},{"start":19376.005,"end":19391.974,"text":"公有建築物造價的一趴但是新法變成重大公用工程造價的一趴那今天會提出這一部分就是在於我們觀塘異化天然氣的接收站就是我們之前講三接的部分"},{"start":19392.654,"end":19409.36,"text":"那之前因為真愛藻礁的公投衝擊我們行政院在110年5月3號的時候有把它更改為外推方案那主要是為了減少對於藻礁的衝擊那在同年12月我們經濟部才把這個"},{"start":19411.301,"end":19430.94,"text":"預算 相爭的預算送到行政院但是我們送行政院的時候這個預算送行政院的時候 我們文化藝術講座及促進條例早就已經公佈施行也就是說這一部分應該要依照文化藝術講座及促進條例第15條應該"},{"start":19432.722,"end":19458.019,"text":"依照直接工程費的1%來辦理公共藝術那這部分其實我們中油在111年1月的時候有送第三次修正計畫針對相關機關審查意見回覆的時候工程會就有明確的提醒台灣中油要按照新法來編列可是我們中油還是錯誤解讀這個法律"},{"start":19460.08,"end":19480.735,"text":"所以我們後來召開了三次協調會可是召開三次協調會我們中游一下子把這個依法編列的公共藝術經費從662萬一下子又改到5288萬直到今年2月我們最後只好請文化部主管單位"},{"start":19481.916,"end":19495.325,"text":"來解釋這個法律那他出席這個協調會之後後來文化部也在4月21號正式發函說這個外推方案的調整預算應該依照直接工程費的1%來編列公共藝術"},{"start":19497.907,"end":19514.441,"text":"那這邊我要跟院長來報告我們剛出三接他從660億後來增加到965億也就是說這個外推方案就增加了305億後來我們4月2號那天也請中郵的黃榮譽副總他有講這個"},{"start":19518.404,"end":19544.719,"text":"305億是總工程費但是直接工程費也有250億所以真正增加的公共藝術的經費應該是2.5億那這部分我想說部長應該知道這個事情吧同仁有跟我講他是講說因為這個工程他是橫跨了舊法跟新法那就是說中間有一些不同的解釋"},{"start":19546.325,"end":19575.572,"text":"但是後來我們也確實開過三次協調會啦那最後只要請我們這個主管這個法律的文化部已經也正式發函那今天會提出最主要目的也是要拜託院長那這個部分中油其實已經拖欠了很多年其實早在111年工程會就已經提醒台灣中油要用新法來編列可是中油他說這個還沒有實施可是我們可以知道其實他在"},{"start":19576.272,"end":19596.684,"text":"公告的時候就已經實施所以我們這預算在送提報跟核定都是在新法之後所以這邊拜託我們院長還有部長一定要督促中遊今年一定要提報然後明年希望經濟部行政院趕快核定來送交我們立法院來審查"},{"start":19599.1,"end":19621.613,"text":"這個部分我想經濟部應該再跟文化部或者是工程會我們再了解跨越新舊法之間如果舊法當時並沒有編列相關這個預算那在新法實施之後他又做了一些增加那要不要有一些可以折衷的方式來算這部分其實我跟院長報告其實我們開三次協調會都已經釐清的很清楚"},{"start":19622.533,"end":19646.949,"text":"這個完全就是這個外推方案都是在我們新法實施之後才提報中油才提報後來在111年才送交行政院核定所以文化部已經確定解讀這個法例絕對是適用新法沒有問題那今天當然我也希望院長部長了解之後希望也能夠盡快來督促中油"},{"start":19647.509,"end":19660.147,"text":"今年趕快提報 明年趕快核定不然這已經延宕那麼多年這對我們地方回饋公共藝術的部分真的已經延誤了很多年希望這部分我們院長跟部長多幫忙"},{"start":19661.874,"end":19687.236,"text":"好的 我剛剛說請經濟部跟工程會跟我們來討論好 希望來瞭解清楚三線最重要的是那個生態的維護他只要做這一點才是他重要的工作重點就是希望說因為這個補助的費用差很多而且居然我們提報是在新法這已經很明確所以希望我們院長跟部長來督促中友趕快提報來實施那還有我們針對我們"},{"start":19690.697,"end":19711.609,"text":"能源政策的部分的問題我想請問一下院長我們在3個月16號院長有表示非核家園在去年的5月17號已經達成所以現在不排除接受新的核能技術院長有講過對不對"},{"start":19713.081,"end":19736.821,"text":"我們對新的核能技術一直在希望跟世界同步在研究討論將來有一點傷準的時候只要它符合到安全沒有核廢料的問題以及大家有共識接受我們都希望跟世界同步對這個方向我們也是樂觀啟程我們也是支持而且我們賴總統也在上個月22號他也宣布核二核三台電可以開始"},{"start":19737.361,"end":19764.257,"text":"重啟評估所以基本上不管是院長新的核能技術還是賴總統在3月22號針對核核酸的重啟評估所以那時候我們有講嘛2025非核家園也已經走過了那我們現在就像剛剛院長講的我們可以的話會朝向接受核能發電不管是舊技術新技術只要能夠安全之下我們都有可能用核能發電嘛對不對"},{"start":19765.638,"end":19793.684,"text":"我們的核能三原則還是要遵守的就是核安、核廢還有社會有共識另外現在的核三廠他必須由台電來提出再運轉計畫以及自主安全檢查縱交核安會來進行審核之後才能夠啟動所以只要在這些條件都符合之下我們是有可能啟動也要自主安全檢查的過程跟再運轉計畫都能夠合乎核安會的審核的同意"},{"start":19794.364,"end":19820.827,"text":"所以看起來我們能源政策其實是有機會做改變所以重點我是要詢問一下因為在上個月我們三接的二期工程在觀音有召開公聽會其實民眾反彈非常的劇烈因為又要再新做六座的除氣槽他們是非常的恐慌我今天請問部長針對觀塘液化天然氣接收站"},{"start":19821.347,"end":19845.016,"text":"三接他的建制背景當初他的建制背景是什麼為什麼要去做這個三接因為他要供應北部的這個大潭電廠的天然氣發電有這樣的需要就是也希望逐步增加燃氣的發電量燃氣增加以後你當然要有接收站然後才有辦法實施就是增加燃氣它的發電量"},{"start":19847.317,"end":19871.697,"text":"現在我們逐步調高燃氣的發電量那是當時我們因為我們當時的背景我們就是因為非核家園所以我們在能源背地上的部分是不是在燃氣的部分燃氣目的是要減煤我們要取代煤那因為不管怎樣你核能的話你最多核二核三也只有占10%"},{"start":19872.398,"end":19895.636,"text":"所以我們當初我們的能源配比是20%的再生能源30%的燃煤跟50%的燃氣所以我們這個三接的目的其實就是增加燃氣的發電量這樣沒有錯吧對 那煤是盡快的把它降下來因為當初的煤是接近50%現在已經降了我們希望可以降到30%所以我們看我們當初這個"},{"start":19898.959,"end":19913.116,"text":"在104年他有針對三接做可行性研究報告其他最主要計畫摘要的部分就是針對三接這個投資計畫我們台灣中油配合台電"},{"start":19913.737,"end":19928.689,"text":"因應政府確保河岸穩健檢核打造綠能低碳環境邁向非核家園的新的能源政策所以這是當初我們這個計畫上面有寫它摘要重要的部分所以也是因應"},{"start":19929.389,"end":19945.914,"text":"非核家園所以把燃氣的配比提高嗎因為我們現在的儲存量是11天大家都覺得可能風險比較高希望增加到14天就是說儲存槽必須一定要有增加才有辦法可以讓這個"},{"start":19947.114,"end":19963.074,"text":"安全的天數往上增加所以我知道因為我們在增加六座主要就是還是增加它燃氣增加它的發電量所以我們那時候目標其實我們目標是希望能夠增加到24天可是我們要知道其實像14天"},{"start":19964.836,"end":19984.458,"text":"其實像我們這次美伊戰爭我們天然氣主要的輸出有一個國家卡達像我們這次這個燃氣我們就沒有辦法進來所以這樣子也有可能會影響我們燃氣進來會變成說我們天然氣輸入進來也有可能因為像這次美伊戰爭的影響"},{"start":19985.899,"end":20012.804,"text":"所以我們希望啊 既然我們的能源政策現在看起來有去做改變而且也說如果好的安全的核能技術我們有可能啟用核能市長桃園最近的這個產業發展非常非常的熱絡而且算力中心呢 主要從北部來講的話它優先也是在桃園最主要的原因就是因為桃園它的電力非常中足"},{"start":20013.524,"end":20039.85,"text":"他是支撐整個桃園很大很大產業發展的基礎我們也支持電一定要夠用啦所以只是說我們是說院長跟總統現在也都認為我們可能能源政策配比的方向可能會有所改變所以我們希望是不是能夠重新訂定能源白皮書說清楚講明白我們將來的能源配比可能會怎麼樣去做"},{"start":20041.01,"end":20061.364,"text":"能源的政策並沒有大改變以氣換煤這是很重要性的一個原則所以未來幾年我們會有很多的新的燃氣機組更新替代這個燃煤機組再來第三點就是剛剛部長講的我們必須增加燃氣的安全存量那這個做下來的這些目的一方是安全更重要的是要這樣來"},{"start":20064.692,"end":20084.541,"text":"讓所有各縣市的產業能夠充分的有充裕的電力能夠來運用包括桃園市在內我今天會提出其實最主要目的就是說我要讓院長跟部長知道這個三接二期我們地方反彈非常非常的劇烈而且那我們今天居然看到我們居然新的能源政策有可能"},{"start":20085.821,"end":20100.746,"text":"去做一些調整改變希望這個三接二期是不是可以先重新檢討或者先暫緩等到我們新的能源政策能源配比出來之後再來決定這個三接二期是不是確定要興建"},{"start":20101.886,"end":20125.457,"text":"我們會加強溝通 包括委員 即便是因為河山是在南部 河俄如果重啟 那個也是非常之後的事情好 沒關係 希望說因為時間的問題啦桃園的產業發展真的是因為它發展的好 是因為它電力非常好好 我希望這個3接2基本部分 希望還是算力就是對 我知道 所以我說因為我們並不是"},{"start":20126.357,"end":20146.027,"text":"我們電還是需要只是說這個有機會去做調整那居然如果有新的能源方向那是不是有機會把這個三接二期因為民眾真的反彈很劇烈希望能夠先暫緩討論是不是有這個機會不需要再增加六座的主氣窗我們在提高這個天然氣"},{"start":20147.247,"end":20164.819,"text":"儲量的安全這個前提底下就是讓國家的能源更安全同時不會因為提高儲量的安全增加地方的安全顧慮這點請委員能夠支持我們一起跟當地的居民們做更多的說明希望他們能夠理解支持國家重大的這個能源政策"},{"start":20165.239,"end":20185.213,"text":"我希望說就是有機會檢討一下我今天要反映的重點是說如果有新的能源政策然後三接二期民眾居然反應這麼激烈如果有機會的話請院長部長了解一下三接二期是不是有機會做調整那請院長部長這部分多幫忙還有針對我們農業工廠協會這我簡單說明一下農業工廠我們在一百"},{"start":20192.762,"end":20203.632,"text":"在108年的時候修正109年實施6年的時間你看我們第三階段申請特定工廠有12733家到第四階段成功變更只有230家"},{"start":20208.556,"end":20219.084,"text":"第四個階段成功取得一般工廠的只有八家也只有萬分之六所以希望這部分院長部長幫我們加強輔導希望能夠讓他們轉型成功"},{"start":20227.805,"end":20255.977,"text":"它如果屬於非低固然的部分那屬於低固然的部分才有建造成的補導性我希望我們店長在這邊我們農業部針對我們這一部隊希望加強補導因為他們一直很想轉型可是這個比例真的太低了也希望今天舉出來希望能夠加強補導讓他們能夠轉型成功不然這個成功的比例真的太低了"},{"start":20261.679,"end":20285.831,"text":"好 希望行政部門把圖圈紀委員關切的資料送到圖圈紀委員研究室好 謝謝圖圈紀委員質詢 謝謝左院長 相關部會首長備詢 謝謝接下來我們請翁曉琳委員質詢下面請陳樹越委員請準備"},{"start":20301.807,"end":20312.736,"text":"主席好 在這裡先有請經濟部部長 工部長還有農業部的陳部長麻煩請經濟部農業部備選委員好"},{"start":20327.15,"end":20351.44,"text":"兩位部長好在進入今天的總諮詢之前其實本席想先花幾分鐘的時間對於行政院院長卓榮泰這兩年的荒腔走板的表現我要予以最嚴正的譴責和批評本席身為法律人其實最瞧不起的就是這種知法玩法藐視法律的人沒想到我們的行政院院長卓榮泰竟然是這樣的人"},{"start":20358.465,"end":20386.258,"text":"那麼上週吳宗憲委員在這個質詢台上面說賴卓治國是從頭騙到尾現在本席要告訴大家的是賴卓治國這兩年違法違憲毀憲亂政的事蹟是不計其數沁竹難書他們幹的壞事是不僅傷害台灣的民主憲政法治更是讓台灣的法治國的形象大崩壞讓全世界看笑話卓榮泰的所作所為不只是騙而已而本席認為是壞透了"},{"start":20387.045,"end":20414.299,"text":"那卓榮泰上任這一年半來上任一年半內就對於立法院通過的法律案和運算案提出了八次的復議案而且是屢戰屢敗創下了我國憲政史上單一行政院長提起最多次復議和復議失敗的記錄像卓榮泰這種不斷被立法院打臉卻還厚著臉皮不動如山然後拒不下台沒有政治擔當的行政院院長全世界當然是絕無僅有"},{"start":20415.62,"end":20430.453,"text":"不僅如此他還變本加厲與賴清德總統兩個人是航線儀器眼雙簧公然對抗立法權霸凌多數民主做了全世界民主法治國家連想都不敢想的事情就是沒收立法權拒絕一法行政"},{"start":20433.669,"end":20443.998,"text":"全世界除了獨裁國家之外沒有哪個國家的葛魁是敢把行政、立法、司法三拳一把抓的但是我們卓榮泰院長可不一樣他囂張、跋扈、蠻橫"},{"start":20447.858,"end":20471.413,"text":"他敢大言不慚的去解釋法律是核心還是違憲他可以選擇性的遵守法律選擇性的附屬法律還可以選擇性的去編列預算選擇性的給立委資料他該提名的不提名他該公佈的人事案他不公佈有了如此全能的行政院院長三位議體我們還需要立法委員我們還需要大法官嗎"},{"start":20475.584,"end":20499.924,"text":"賴清德總統卓榮泰院長你們乾脆就模仿清末皇帝他們頒布的清定憲法大綱自己就頒布一份賴定憲法大綱上面寫反法律與預算雖經立法院三讀通過但未經賴黃卓魁同意者批准公告者不能施行施行者就視為無效"},{"start":20502.54,"end":20529.147,"text":"我們韓國瑜院長真的好心提出建言說要化解僵局但是賴信德總統他你們真的是有心要化解嗎你們不斷的製造憲政衝突 憲政僵局就連最基本的守憲守法公佈法律的憲政義務你們都做不到滿腦子就是對付在野黨刻薄非律選民 刻薄非律縣市激化仇恨情緒本席根本不相信你們會改邪歸正"},{"start":20530.762,"end":20543.023,"text":"我們韓院長是慈悲為懷願意給你們機會但是本行身為法律人我不會接受這種踐踏但以民主破壞權力分立藐視國會的行政院院長"},{"start":20544.281,"end":20568.568,"text":"因此在卓榮泰完成依法一線的憲政法律義務之前也就是要附屬法律、編列軍人家籍預算還有提名NCC委員等這些人事案之前本席根本不屑與這種失位速參只會耍嘴皮、強詞奪理的行政院院長進行對話、詢答違法違憲不適任的院長不配上台接受備詢"},{"start":20570.103,"end":20584.06,"text":"所以而後的質詢本席就只會請教這個專業的主管部會的首長好那麼接下來本席要請教首先要先請教這個工部長經濟部長工部長"},{"start":20586.305,"end":20612.344,"text":"台灣在今年這一二月分別跟美國的商務部和貿易代表總署完成簽署台美投資備忘物MOU還有對等貿易協定對等關稅貿易協定ART賴政府宣稱說這次的台美對等貿易協定談得很好這是對台灣帶來莫大的利益是揮出成功的全壘打"},{"start":20614.005,"end":20642.046,"text":"可是事實上本席在ART簽署公佈後的第一個時間裡面我就想讀了這整份ART的協議文件文本我當時就發現這項協定哪是什麼對等談判從頭到尾就是份不平等的條約美國高度的介入和干預我國的貿易關稅治理主權甚至還要求我們要放棄原有更嚴格的商品檢驗標準"},{"start":20644.282,"end":20653.876,"text":"幾乎就是以美國的標準為標準本席不客氣的說這份關稅貿易協定 ART根本就是個上全入國的貿易協定"},{"start":20655.413,"end":20682.854,"text":"上个月美国贸易代表署公布了2026年的贸易障碍报告他们列举了台美有多项的贸易障碍以及台湾在贸易协议所做的承诺那么其中特别是大幅放宽美国进口商品的检验和这个检疫标准当然也还有就是说未来对美国的农产品这个就不再对美国的农产品依WTO的规定科证关税"},{"start":20684.298,"end":20705.402,"text":"那這些事情其實引起了輿論嘩然因為從這時候開始大家才知道說發現從馬鈴薯發芽馬鈴薯的事件發現呢原來台美的對等貿易協定對台灣而言果真是一份喪權入國放棄國家監管權利而且吸收台灣經濟權益的吸引力請聽我說完我沒有請教您陳部長"},{"start":20714.246,"end":20722.817,"text":"原來所謂的全壘打是讓美國集出全壘打而對台灣則是全面失守讓利太多幾乎是全面讓步了"},{"start":20723.905,"end":20747.444,"text":"那麼當然除了ART之外國人也非常關心的就是台美投資MOU的內容一直想要清楚了解到底台美雙向投資計畫有些什麼項目有沒有像賴清德總統說的那麼美好所以呢在此本席想要請教就是說為什麼現在我們都還沒有看到MOU的完整內容不知道這個有沒有公布"},{"start":20748.971,"end":20766.728,"text":"有關於MOU的部分現在台美之間實質上的貿易狀況我們現在是全世界最大的順差國對美國來講我現在要請教您的是當時在1月份跟美國商務所所簽訂的這份MOU已經公布了嗎"},{"start":20768.491,"end":20792.365,"text":"還沒有所以我們台灣為什麼到現在沒有公佈FACTSHIP公佈了就是那個FACTSHIP等於是簡易說明只有簡易才公佈那其他的東西都沒有公佈我們的MOU我們簽了2000多項MOU的這個被網路施加都沒有公佈為什麼呢是因為美國沒有完成程序嗎美國有沒有完成內部程序因為他要公告以後才完成程序到目前為止還沒有"},{"start":20792.925,"end":20811.021,"text":"做這個行政上的公告所以也就是說美國到現在也還沒有完成內部的程序我們已經談定了但是他還沒有做行政上的公告了解 謝謝部長您的說明所以美國到現在也還沒有完成MOU內部程序那麼請問ART的內部程序美國也完成了嗎"},{"start":20813.163,"end":20830.51,"text":"因為他的法律依據是IPAIPA因為最高的法院說已經超出總統的職權所以他現在在重建他的法律依據我們雙方也持續的保持聯絡希望原來談好的結果可以鞏固住"},{"start":20831.138,"end":20848.67,"text":"所以也就是說現在因為美國最高法院宣告這個對等關稅是違憲的所以讓ART和MOU的這兩份協議到目前為止就等於說它的進度是就延宕了甚至可能未來就停擺也可能不會現在繼續這個協定可能也不會再生效是嗎"},{"start":20853.693,"end":20881.835,"text":"目前來講的話就是大家還是同意說那個結果談定了以後就不要變但是那個法律中間的這個法律重建可能要一點時間好那麼簡單來說就是說現在美國方面他們也還沒有正式的完成所有MOU跟ART的相關的這個核定的程序那當然台灣這邊的話想當然你們也不會把這個ART和MOU送到立法院來進行審查對吧"},{"start":20882.475,"end":20904.378,"text":"因為確定以後就會送立法院未來你們可能會重新展開新的談判嗎未來就是說這件事情接下來如果說是他沒有通過會有沒有可能把這個ART然後重新又拿出來裡面的事情重新再拿來談判還是會基本上已經談好了那個結果是雙方都已經同意的所以現在是在"},{"start":20904.858,"end":20920.152,"text":"法律的這個部分的基礎重建的工作不是在解剖的部分好不過就是我想大家國人都很關切就是說因為裡面其實有蠻多的內容是很不合理的所以我們也希望假設之後有機會重新談判的話希望我們經濟部我們農業部還是要能夠"},{"start":20920.652,"end":20936.31,"text":"坚守台湾的这个立场我们的经济的利益还有我们国民健康的安全的一些立场那最后对于工部长这边我还有一个附带的提醒就是因为你们其实一直没有提出很清楚的产业冲击影响评估报告"},{"start":20936.71,"end":20964.969,"text":"在行政院的官網上面其實寫的都非常非常的簡略完全沒有重點也不夠深入那我想國人其實是非常關心台灣跟其他國家尤其跟美國的這個對等關稅貿易協定裡面它可能會對於台灣產業帶來什麼衝擊所以本席希望就是說兩個部會回去之後是不是能夠儘速把可能對於農業或對其他經濟產業的衝擊然後能夠把相關資料補齊然後寫得更深入的報告可以嗎"},{"start":20965.982,"end":20985.692,"text":"八號委員因為我們當初的設想是說那等到雙方談定以後我們要送到大院那個就會完整的資料都提供給大院但是因為這個時程上有一點點拖了所以你們現在就暫時也不會補嗎那接下來本時要請教的是陳部長因為農業部最近搞出了發芽馬鈴薯之亂讓國人赫然驚覺說原來台美貿易"},{"start":20990.294,"end":21010.88,"text":"談判當中民進黨政府竟然出賣了國人的食安健康然後也棄守了農產品的檢疫防線而令人非常的氣憤那關於馬鈴薯發芽馬鈴薯的這個事情要怎麼樣去檢驗因為已經有很多討論所以本席在這裡也不會再細談可是本席不得不說這整個行政體系對於發芽馬鈴薯的事情的處理"},{"start":21011.34,"end":21012.101,"text":"我特別跟委員說明一下"},{"start":21030.737,"end":21052.279,"text":"馬鈴薯是要怎麼檢驗?沒關係部長我不會再追究這件事情但是本心想要問的就是說當初修改發芽馬鈴薯檢疫標準這件事情你們當時有公告社會大眾有讓農業界知道這件事情嗎?我們在任何的法規的公告一定有預告在經過公告的一個程序謝謝你們當時預告的時候是幾天?"},{"start":21054.212,"end":21082.218,"text":"我這個可能要查一下我們一定有一個預告的程序在公告那看起來部長您不清楚因為我去查了你們第一次當時說要修改這個檢驗標準的時間說預告時間是60天但是呢才預告公告才剛出去沒幾天立刻就撤回改成只有預告14天所以你們知道嗎你們這份檢驗標準的這個規定的預告修正程序只有14天"},{"start":21083.755,"end":21110.874,"text":"我想整個預告最長是60天最短可以到7天好 那你們的理由是說因為這個加牙因為這個規定的修正不會影響到農業生產環境也對於民眾的權益沒有實質的影響所以整個預告時間縮短為14天但是會對於民眾的健康沒有影響嗎是絕對沒有影響 我要跟你們報告所有的巴牙"},{"start":21111.434,"end":21123.005,"text":"不會對我們國人的一個食安照的影響我們對於檢疫跟檢驗是沒有任何改變的如果說我們未來立法院我們認為說現在這樣的檢驗標準太低我們要恢復之前的門檻我們修法"},{"start":21130.414,"end":21144.462,"text":"農業部會照辦嗎我跟委員報告牙體的檢查全世界只有我們台灣在做這件事情所以其他的國家都沒有針對牙體做檢查農業部會不會照辦"},{"start":21145.7,"end":21164.585,"text":"我要跟委員講我們在做檢疫一定是雙邊在做談判然後相對的本身一定要符合國際規範我們一定是符合國際規範其實不只是馬鈴薯事件未來還會有其他的未爆彈為什麼因為依據我們ARTD3.3條農業的這個專章第二項的規定裡面就講"},{"start":21169.286,"end":21176.239,"text":"台湾未来对美国是要移除所有会破坏互惠的不合理的食品安全检验与动植物的防疫"},{"start":21177.427,"end":21200.142,"text":"檢疫的障礙說的白話一點就只要是美國人不滿意的動植物的防疫管檢疫管制措施我覺得委員對這個條文解讀是錯誤的所有的檢疫的單位都是雙邊進行會上簡單來說就是凡是美國人不滿意的動植物防疫檢疫管制措施台灣就要破了除後修正我覺得你這樣解讀是錯誤的"},{"start":21204.285,"end":21230.714,"text":"我現在要講的是說接下來依照現在ART裡面的規定我們可能未來會對於像是美國禽流感疫區的進口管制會大幅鬆綁現在的進口管制的規定是如何對於來自於美國禽流感疫區的這些所有的禽流感的限定範圍都是跟他的"},{"start":21260.742,"end":21260.762,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":21274.661,"end":21276.403,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝謝謝翁曉琳委員的質詢謝謝農業部經濟部長備詢 謝謝"},{"start":21289.824,"end":21298.409,"text":"我們接下來委員質詢之後將會休息十分鐘十分鐘之後再請鍾嘉斌委員準備質詢接下來我們請陳樹岳委員請質詢"},{"start":21318.706,"end":21323.868,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請卓院長還有經濟部公務長再請卓院長、經濟部長備詢卓院長還有公務長吳安"},{"start":21344.446,"end":21355.389,"text":"首先要請教一下我們知道美伊戰爭爆發之後就是荷姆斯海峽遭封鎖所以導致中東石油產地石油運輸發生了問題也造成國際能源價格飆漲"},{"start":21361.671,"end":21384.962,"text":"尤其就是說在海峽遭封鎖之後石油的供應也造成了很大的一個危機也造成了石化原料的一個短缺所以這樣子的一個狀況當然對我們整個國家的民生經濟造成很大的衝擊我們看到行政院目前就是針對為了要穩定物價防止通貨膨脹所以我們也有幾項的"},{"start":21386.042,"end":21390.225,"text":"重大的措施包括針對運輸的票價動漲還有國內的油價目前動漲還有補貼計程車的車資還有一些措施我現在想請教一下"},{"start":21407.797,"end":21418.648,"text":"對於針對中小企業的一個衝擊目前我們行政院或者經濟部這邊有沒有去掌握到對中小企業有造成什麼嚴重的衝擊"},{"start":21420.472,"end":21437.504,"text":"好跟委員報告原則性的問題第一個行政院從2月底開始就成立了這個因應中東情勢衝突的民生安定專案的小組的會議每個禮拜都會開會每個禮拜三還有物價穩定小組那禮拜五我們還要最後聽這個"},{"start":21440.386,"end":21467.079,"text":"核算下一周油價是否要做如何的調適這個是固定的那這樣做就是要讓整個產業第一個物價能夠穩定民生能夠安定那當中我們也知道包括塑膠袋一些醫療的這個醫材還有農業的包材等等在原料的源頭比較欠缺的時候我們也啟動了釋清它的整個源頭的原料的生產"},{"start":21467.799,"end":21482.371,"text":"那也把它放生產之後交給下游中下游去做製品那現在已經有5000噸的這個原料能夠產生出12.5億個塑膠袋這個是對民生的部分對於產業我想從大眾運輸企業運輸企業剛剛委員提到了我們從計程車"},{"start":21487.995,"end":21513.917,"text":"大客車還有這個國內航空還有國內的船舶交通我們也做了全面性的一些補貼的政策那油價跟電價的穩定那是包括民生包括產業都受惠到這整個物價穩定的調整的過程那細節如果 請部長再補充巴委員除了剛剛院長提到的就是價格的穩定之外然後另外料源我們希望充足之外"},{"start":21514.517,"end":21536.503,"text":"事實上因為任性條例的這個部分進一步編了460億那個本來就是給傳統產業跟中小企業來用的所以就是說不管是升級轉型也好或是融資貸款的利息補助也好或是多元市場的開拓也好那個持續在做那我們現在收的案件已經好幾千件那也持續在做那另外我們也"},{"start":21537.944,"end":21560.846,"text":"組織了這個競爭力的輔導團那也輔導了現在已經有4000多家在輔導當中已經有一些完成了那這個部分我們持續在做除了這個之外公務預算也還有100億的中小為多元振興方案那這是院長每一年都會給我們100億那這個也是針對中小企業來做一些協助的所以我們有衝"},{"start":21561.647,"end":21587.188,"text":"分的這些準備來支撐我們中小企業的一些因應的發展跟部長所回答的這些事實上就是說在我們中美貿易談判之後我們這些措施就已經有在實施可是就是說在中美貿易關稅的問題發生的時候當然中小企業他們因為就是這個關稅的問題也導致他們這個就是接單也造成很大的一個困擾就是"},{"start":21588.189,"end":21609.388,"text":"在要不要接都是一個很大的困擾那現在因為原物料的上漲因為最近我拜訪中小企業他們就反映說目前的原物料漲得非常的高包括其中一項就是甲本它從每公餅四千元漲到現在每公餅要一萬五千元等於是漲了三倍"},{"start":21610.269,"end":21632.943,"text":"所以這樣子的一個價格這樣子一個成本導致他們目前就是包括一些食品業者的包材他們要印刷那個封面等等還有包括這個磷膜原料PE和EVA也漲了三到四倍業者做這個果凍上的一絲膜價格也漲了30%這個是在中美貿易"},{"start":21634.503,"end":21655.608,"text":"這個關稅之後我們新的一波問題就是因為這個能源的年代的石化原料的問題所衍生的新的目前的一個狀況所以過去就是說在之前你剛剛部長回答的潤性的這些就是措施就是支撐中小企業不管是轉型技術提升等等"},{"start":21656.128,"end":21680.798,"text":"我覺得對於他們這一次面臨的就是原物料的一個上漲的衝擊我覺得幫助不大我是想建議行政院這邊有沒有考量就是從稅負的就是去減免這個方向去考慮來減輕他們的一些負擔報告委員因為現在油價當然是累積起來大概漲了百分之也許70 80 90"},{"start":21683.072,"end":21700.94,"text":"如果最大幅度漲到這樣子那也是反映這個但是我們有一個平穩措施理論上是不應該漲那麼多的現在油價部分我們大概只有反映百分之十幾到二十而已所以委員如果有發現或是怎麼樣的不合理的case的話"},{"start":21701.34,"end":21725.908,"text":"也許讓我們知道一下我們來了解到底出了什麼問題這樣子報告委剛剛你說到甲本從4000漲到15000我們是沒有追到這個訊息我會請法務部主動去追查因為這個超過了漲幅的範圍了無論他是不法的轟台啊不法的轟台或是囤積或是這個聯合壟斷行為我會請法務部主動去調查這個事情因為"},{"start":21727.108,"end":21751.145,"text":"目前的掌握度來看不應該有這麼如此高的一個漲價幅度有百分之二十三十也許短時間內還必須可以忍受但是我們盡量把它壓低但是這種幅度實在是太不合理所以我想就是說對於中小企業真的是在苦苦支撐那之前的一波這個中美關稅的一個衝擊現在又面臨了這個石油這個危機的一個衝擊"},{"start":21752.546,"end":21777.86,"text":"他們已經快撐不下去了那我也希望就是說因為中小企業也是我們台灣整體經濟很重要的一部分所以應該要真的要去實際了解就是對於基層這個中小企業面臨的問題要實際掌握到是不是就是這部分建議部長那接下來本席來關心一下有關這個農地工廠合法化的一個目前的狀況"},{"start":21780.101,"end":21808.601,"text":"我們知道剛剛有提到中小企業也就是台灣經濟的最重要的一個部分很多的中小企業過去以來就是因為工業用地的不足那就是都建立興建在農地上就是所謂的農地工廠這也超過50年的問題也是一個歷史工業我們在2019年我們為了要解決這樣子的一個歷史工業所以我們有修訂了工福法"},{"start":21810.282,"end":21829.61,"text":"開一個路讓他們可以循著這個程序來合法化可是目前我們看到的資料因為我們看到全國目前已經提交改善計畫的有33,467家就是應該提交的那已提交的是29,136家"},{"start":21831.771,"end":21859.666,"text":"取得特登的是12,767家那全國取得合法工廠登記的有幾家這個我目前沒有問到問不到就我彰化縣的資料來看就是目前就是已經提交的是6,195家那取得特登的是3,676家那到最後一個階段能夠取得合法工廠登記的只有22家這樣子的一個比例"},{"start":21860.126,"end":21881.601,"text":"真的是非常的低也可以說寥寥可撫所以本席提這個數據主要就是說希望我們院長能夠去重視就是說這些農地工廠他們在合法化的過程所面臨到的問題到底是什麼樣的問題能不能協助解決如果不能的話我覺得"},{"start":21882.762,"end":21891.919,"text":"到最後還是一個沒有辦法解決的歷史工業那是不是就這樣擺著嗎我不曉得院長有什麼想法"},{"start":21892.298,"end":21912.037,"text":"好 謝謝 這個委員所在的這個彰化也是我們這個農登工廠應該是最多最久的一個地方所以長期以來委員的關心我們都了解日前我也跟委員討論過對於這個農登工廠它應該要突破歷史上一些還沒有辦法解決的問題來把它克服掉"},{"start":21912.717,"end":21928.249,"text":"那他解決到目前可以解決的這個案件實在是太少了那表示我們的任何的規定沒有 現在的規定沒有辦法去因應這些問題那如果在整個農地的管理之下農業部可以在不影響整個農業 農產安全的狀況底下如果要來面對這個問題"},{"start":21934.614,"end":21963.186,"text":"我們已經跟農業部還有內政部做一個通盤的討論那也請委員提供出來在當地的這個產業界需要怎麼樣的處理就產業業者跟政府的現在的規定當間這麼大的落差會如何來彌平這個正在進行研究當中本席提這個數據主要也是希望院長要去了解然後重視這個議題接下來本席想請教有關就是目前台灣農業面臨的一個問題"},{"start":21964.502,"end":21966.945,"text":"目前臺灣農村有一個狀況正在發生越南移工變成地下老闆"},{"start":21983.701,"end":22012.311,"text":"主導在整個這個農業的一個經營模式請問部長知道嗎我想我們有掌握這樣的一個情況那這種情況最普遍的就是說在合法的農地的一個經營的過程中他可能用五厘地或一分地的部分讓這些移工來自己經營然後拿去販售那這個部分其實我們已經掌握相關的一個資訊那同樣的這是一個不合法的一個行為也會影響到我們"},{"start":22013.191,"end":22036.283,"text":"我們國內的農民的一個生活跟他的一個農產的貿易所以後續我想我們再跟勞動部這邊看要怎麼樣的去針對這個非法的這些移工去做這樣的一個行為本席在今年過年期間然後一直到目前陸續就是在田尾、普延就是在走訪基層的時候就有遇到鄉親跟我反映這個問題"},{"start":22037.524,"end":22053.781,"text":"那時候我在想說因為我本來還不知道有這樣的一個狀況農民反映之後結果在三月份我們也看到了有一個上下游的網路媒體針對這個議題做了八篇深入的報導我才覺得說那這個已經是一個很普遍"},{"start":22054.361,"end":22082.57,"text":"很嚴重的一個問題因為當時我在我的選區就是田委遇到的鄉親他們就是反映說今年從過年到目前整個蔬菜價格都沒有很好他就跟我提到說就是有這個外籍移工他們現在就是自己貿產做陶芸他們種植之後他們在販售的時候他們就是壓低這個價格所以導致整個交易"},{"start":22084.097,"end":22107.084,"text":"蔬菜市場的交易價格就是崩盤拉低了所以這樣子一個狀況的存在我們也希望農業部要去重視當然這個菜價是一體兩面不過我覺得比較嚴重的是食安的問題就是農藥用藥的問題因為我們看到這篇報導裡面他有提到說在去年颱風"},{"start":22109.305,"end":22118.858,"text":"來襲之前結果在雲林的果菜市場發現了很多批的葉菜類的蔬菜農藥檢驗都超標這樣的狀況去跟他追查之後原來就是為了搶收"},{"start":22126.207,"end":22152.913,"text":"所以這個就是說這個外籍移工他可能不知道這個農藥的一個管控的期間或者是說他也不知道是不是用了正確的農藥因為他們就是成為實際的這個農業經營者的時候他們能夠去農藥行買農藥嗎就是說在對農藥或者肥料的使用上沒有辦法受到管控所以如果說發生了這樣子的一個食安問題的時候我們要怎樣去溯源"},{"start":22154.034,"end":22176.605,"text":"我想第一個跟委員報告就是今年年初的這個車家低迷有一大部分的原因是因為去年因為台灣的關係然後過度集中種植導致的那第二個部分針對您所提的這個移工本身的部分現在是用合法掩護非法所以他們是用類似分論的概念就是說合法的農地跟經營主體"},{"start":22177.765,"end":22201.136,"text":"他提供給這些非法移工做這些經營然後去做抽煙彈所以我們現在已經掌握從批發市場批發市場拍賣的時候我們就會特別去注意他本身的經銷人包括實際在拍賣的人是不是一個有問題的一個人那第二個部分在產地面我們也是跟我們的農民講有任何的這種把自己土地分潤給"},{"start":22202.356,"end":22216.012,"text":"那些外籍移工去做種植然後收入如他們收的部分的話我們是嚴格的未來我們所有的補助所有的救助都不會給予他們那這個部分我想我們會加強第三個就是我們在考慮在適當的時間點我們會啟動聯合稽查"},{"start":22219.544,"end":22245.382,"text":"剛剛部長講的是其中一個狀況因為我們看這一個報導就是網路媒體的報導除了分論之外他們還有一個模式就是他們是真正的就是保地的耕作者所以他們也造成了人地競爭就是說他跟我們台灣的青農競爭在租這個農地所以也造成我們青農在耕作上"},{"start":22259.216,"end":22278.867,"text":"好 謝謝陳樹越委員的質詢謝謝卓院長 各相關部會市長的備詢 謝謝好 謝謝抱歉我們即將休息十分鐘我們謝謝邱若驊委員 王育民委員 鍾嘉斌委員 顏寬恆委員陪同我們一起上半場的質詢謝謝 我們先休息"},{"start":22867.295,"end":22871.244,"text":"好 抱歉會我們繼續開會接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員質詢嚴寬衡委員請準備"},{"start":22893.704,"end":22902.237,"text":"主席、再當委員先進、列席政府經濟發展委員、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生有請卓院長跟農業部陳部長跟我們經濟部的拱部長麻煩再請卓院長、農業部、經濟部備詢"},{"start":22917.765,"end":22931.747,"text":"中國元好院長好兩位部長好我的標題很簡單業者足科檢查海關抽驗把關產地設冷庫結合儲能增任性發展新能源需設預化電網的配置來"},{"start":22933.479,"end":22948.058,"text":"院長剛剛看到前面的翁委員在質詢我覺得是很辛苦啦因為他一直要問陳部長又不給陳部長講來陳部長到底你了解的我們這個馬鈴薯進口院長說要竹科檢驗到底是什麼意思送到新竹的竹科去檢驗嗎"},{"start":22951.981,"end":22978.621,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會能夠比較完整的說明第一個部分我要說明的就是確保我們農業產業的環境跟國人的健康是我們農業部跟衛生部共同的責任所以在邊境檢查上我們一定是用非常嚴格的標準甚至於比國外的標準還高那針對有關於加工的馬鈴薯的部分我們是採用三階段由兩個部會就是來共同來做這樣的雙重把關"},{"start":22979.361,"end":23002.613,"text":"那第一關就是在美國輸出前他第一個一定由美國的檢疫單位一定要確保沒有帶土沒有帶病沒有帶蟲然後沒有腐爛而且噴發芽抑制劑有這樣的一個檢查以後才能夠從美國同意他出關那到了台灣是我們第二關的部分是我們的海關邊境的一個檢查"},{"start":23003.573,"end":23021.28,"text":"那在檢查的時候農業部門我們負責的是他本身的芽體有沒有超過標準更重要的是他的病害跟蟲害有沒有帶有這樣的一個病害或蟲害如果有的話病害有的話是整批直接退運那蟲害的話會經過薰針"},{"start":23023.061,"end":23041.731,"text":"那有關於牙體的部分如果發現的時候我們就會通知衛務部那同樣的衛務部在抽檢有看到牙體也會通知農業部我們互相協同那有牙體的時候衛務部就會做切檢的檢驗如果檢驗出超標的時候也是退運"},{"start":23042.791,"end":23059.166,"text":"所以在這樣的一個前提之下只剩下都是安全的只剩下牙體過長那在過長的過程中業者會看他實際情況如果太多的時候他可能會退運但是如果他想要做一些重新整理的話他提改善計畫書"},{"start":23060.467,"end":23083.447,"text":"那改善計畫書就會選定它的指定地點那這些指定地點要合乎我們的要求然後如果確定它可以重新選別的時候我們會把這個貨櫃封簽以後送到指定的加工廠然後由我們的檢疫人員監督之下開櫃然後由業者用輸送袋去做選別那有的業者有自動選別系統"},{"start":23084.708,"end":23108.389,"text":"就能夠快速的選別選別完了以後我們才會核發檢疫證明那檢疫合格證明他才能夠進到後端的實際的加工製造所以院長所提到的竹科檢查是指在我們的加工廠做選別的時候我們一定業者是一定是每一顆每一顆都要去看如果有不合格的部分如果再讓我們"},{"start":23109.029,"end":23130.741,"text":"檢驗人員發現的話他就是退運了好部長你花了三分鐘我一張圖就講完了啦如果說你以為的竹科檢驗是把一個貨櫃裡面一萬顆馬鈴薯一顆一顆挑出來看嗎不是啦世界上沒有人這樣做的啦我們台灣的鳳梨台灣的芒果要輸出到日本也是一個貨櫃裡面挑幾件"},{"start":23131.283,"end":23146.868,"text":"出來看有沒有藉殼蟲對不對但是呢我們做好事如果你是工業用冷凍的不會有發芽的問題剩下兩層零售的整顆的那麼我們就會做什麼先抽菸"},{"start":23147.708,"end":23169.473,"text":"抽驗如果不合格就請業者帶回去那他自己一顆一顆把不合格的挑走你他覺得都合格了你送來我再抽驗一次補考補考再考一次通過就通過不通過全部推是不是這樣子院長這樣很簡單是不是給你一個補考的機會不是海關一顆一顆驗是業者如果他覺得"},{"start":23170.213,"end":23186.648,"text":"我只是有些被你抽到了可能沒有那麼壞我把發炎的挑走我整顆轉箱再來一樣都是合格的才會進來嘛結束好好謝謝這個業者這個行為因為他也在海關的後製行為是屬於我們這個邊境檢驗對啦第二句話"},{"start":23189.827,"end":23207.809,"text":"不管是部長的三分鐘還是委員的一分鐘都在昨天專報裡面的兩頁兩頁都寫得很清楚我這個不用兩頁剛剛委員他沒有看不想看看不懂不會問就用這種叫罵的方式我這一張授權給院長跟部長可以拿去用一張圖就解決了來再問一下部長"},{"start":23208.43,"end":23230.66,"text":"院長 我們最近好不容易不再是口蹄疫的疫區嘛 有沒有覺得很振奮感謝所有養豬農跟國人一起的努力也謝謝農業部去做政策上很好的宣導但是現在對岸又發生口蹄疫了 怎麼辦 陳部長我想我們現在目前邊境的把關不只是非洲豬瘟 包括口蹄疫的部分我們也做嚴格的把關"},{"start":23231.34,"end":23247.874,"text":"那相關的這些高風險的疫區的部分我們一定在行李上面一定是百分之百的充裕而且你還到我們屏東有養豬的地方去做講習對不對好謝謝這樣有準備就好來我要關心的是什麼關心的是外銷鳳梨黑心的事情不是黑心鳳梨"},{"start":23248.875,"end":23272.677,"text":"鳳梨為什麼黑心?部長,除了濃度的差異造成的一個黑心很好,但是外銷的鳳梨一定要冷藏嘛所以很多傳統的果農,它的鳳梨如果沒有適當的降溫我們外銷業者送到消費地,到日本,啪啪黑心了還問鳳梨名聲很好,啪啪下去但是傳統市場會不會買到黑心的鳳梨?"},{"start":23274.919,"end":23288.132,"text":"因為傳統市場的鳳梨沒有經過什麼降溫但是有一種情況為什麼我們那麼小心做了冷庫鳳梨還是會到日本還是會到黑心呢有人找出一個原因了用太多蛋肥"},{"start":23289.025,"end":23309.048,"text":"為什麼用那一堆蛋肥經過適當的冷存還是會黑心呢因為農民為了個頭比較大顆最後收成前他會下比較重的蛋肥蛋肥下得重鳳梨長得大顆在傳統市場賣相好但是如果經過了長期的運輸到日本那個就會產生黑心某些人不知道這個事情"},{"start":23309.628,"end":23335.74,"text":"不過我想要跟委員澄清您說的黑心的部分是在第110年的時候我們首次大規模的輸出現在已經沒有這個問題了黑心的問題不是冷鏈問題有的時候是因為你把內需內銷的傳統市場的這些產品經過冷鏈送到外銷所以現在我要講一件事情讓部長知道我們在屏東下一頁我們的國際化的標專廠是不是明年要開始啟用"},{"start":23337.233,"end":23365.234,"text":"在屏東這個就是呢當時設置就是要讓我們屏東的國品可以外銷的它很大那這個經營者他其實怎麼樣他是做品牌包裝因此他做品牌包裝他要求農民既然你這個鳳梨要外銷你不要求大顆你不要給我下那麼多的蛋肥這樣子我的冷庫才能確保送出的鳳梨不會黑心院長是不是這樣子所以呢要搭配好往下看但是這麼大的冷庫需要每個縣市都有嗎"},{"start":23366.206,"end":23394.243,"text":"不需要 因為大型的冷庫不好經營他要跨區域 跨品項 還要跨內外銷我們屏東那麼多包含國品我們的產季也不到半年另外半年那個冷庫不能閒置所以他閒置的時候沒有外銷的時候他做內銷 內銷給誰給全聯 給家樂福他們的國品也是需要冷鏈的所以大型的集中的冷庫不用多但是院長部長"},{"start":23395.303,"end":23417.41,"text":"還有沒有出到冷鋪在計畫當中產地型的冷鏈系統這是我們在建構整個冷鏈網絡裡面一個非常重要的是產地的冷鏈它最大的攝取者就是農民因為農民只要有產地的冷鏈只要是小型的它可以解決田間的它可以讓產品可以在傳統市場它可以讓運輸本來5天它可以放到10天"},{"start":23418.01,"end":23418.531,"text":"所以院長知道齁"},{"start":23435.49,"end":23449.858,"text":"所以產地的冷庫對農民很重要但是產地的冷庫他沒有辦法跨品項他沒有辦法跨區域他甚至不能跨內外交他要跨什麼平常有生產季的時候兩個月四個月農用平常怎樣商用"},{"start":23450.916,"end":23474.013,"text":"讓人家長期營業、升遷期營業、人家做團善的讓他拿來放但是你如果讓人家拿來放做商用,你不能斷電那如果預防斷電,陳部長,冷庫如果預防斷電,斷電會壞掉啊?要用什麼?要用備援嗎?除能你是認為用發電機備援比較好還是用除能?除能設備除能,但是除能很貴多數農民的用斷電系統,就是柴油發電機"},{"start":23475.314,"end":23498.359,"text":"那現在如果我們要廣設這些產地型的冷庫可不可以把儲能列為它的附屬設施以我個人的判斷應該是可行的一個方式應該是可行的 部長 國務部長如果儲能業者他除了做冷庫的不斷電設施他也可以兼做當地區域的光電的儲能來調節電網你覺得有沒有幫助我們電網的韌性"},{"start":23501.384,"end":23523.124,"text":"是有幫助啊,如果他參與我們那個蓄量會議的話所以院長請指示經濟部跟農業部就我們農地設的冷庫它所附設的儲能是不是可以同時監作我們電網當中調節韌性的儲能好不好農業設施包括這個冷卻設施它已經附屬是可以發展這個光電"},{"start":23524.325,"end":23539.376,"text":"已經可以發展光電如果加上光電的儲藏只能用在頭頂上的它不能用別人的那加上儲能的話會更好好 那兩位部長可以回去研究一下好不好我們會來仔細的規劃來再往下看所以現在我們往下說電網"},{"start":23540.848,"end":23558.198,"text":"院長過去我們的台電它的電網是它做發電端也是它做大概只有兩位數的發電廠用戶端上百萬上千萬它的電網的膚色就要配合的都市計畫暴露所以過去台電它的用電戶的電網很順"},{"start":23561.423,"end":23580.418,"text":"路開到哪裡?住宅區、工業區、商業區開到哪裡?他電就送到哪裡?那這個電網設施包括什麼?一次變電所、二次變電所、配電所還有潰線但是現在發電的地方現在不是只有二位數、兩位數的電廠現在很多光電廠都在哪裡?不在都市計劃區域"},{"start":23581.859,"end":23607.315,"text":"這些電廠台電還要用電網去把他的電接過來所以台電就沒有辦法按照道路規劃他坐餐廳沒幾條路啊電網要怎麼設往往設的潰線設的深壓站光電者就開始搶那個配線的容量院長知道齁那怎麼解決怎麼解決解決的方式就是怎樣他有些弊端就是先唱先贏先唱先贏造成很多的浪費"},{"start":23608.476,"end":23624.39,"text":"光電的開發商他可能為了要搶得虧線他要先到台電去放保證金如果時間到他沒有辦法整合他就讓給第二名然後保證就沒收了那第三名沒有拿到虧線的明明整合好了沒有虧線他也沒有辦法發電"},{"start":23625.171,"end":23638.277,"text":"所以可不可以請院長指示部長台電可不可以先去域化往下看就是說這個匱限容量的搶奪往下看就是能夠超前部署這樣的話我們土地開發井然有序公共設施按時到位"},{"start":23639.707,"end":23656.605,"text":"部長我剛剛跟你提過您覺得台電是不是要為了未來的電網的韌性我們對於發電端的電網的配置要及早做規劃讓這些發電業者可以有所遵循部長覺得怎麼樣我們嘗試的來努力看看至少從"},{"start":23657.486,"end":23685.425,"text":"某一個區域先開始因為這個實在是範圍實在是太大了就是說這些光電業者他什麼時候會在哪裡開發然後開發跟地主談的怎麼樣部長我知道你講的我都想過這個業者要去想腦筋但是可以開發各種不同的發電方式的都很有限啊現在哪裡還可以發都有限都算得出來往下看我先考一下我們的總部長難道電池儲能跟水利它是屬於發電裝置還是電網裝置"},{"start":23690.508,"end":23695.152,"text":"除能本身它根本不會發電它是屬於電網裝置但是水力發電過去認為是發電裝置但是它現在的抽蓄水力發電開始調節電網它也可以設為電網裝置對不對"},{"start":23705.444,"end":23732.504,"text":"我們現在的燃料電池燃料電池是什麼燃料電池是用LNG去的只是它不是透過燃燒它透過化學反應來產生電力它是發電裝置它也可以成為什麼儲能裝置就是成為電網裝置好 那往下看所以我們能源轉型2.0電網韌性很重要我們在發展自主能源有光電風電跟地熱我們的這個兼具電網跟發電的水力或燃料電池未來會起一具的發展"},{"start":23732.924,"end":23758.736,"text":"那至於氫能跟儲能也要事先配置但是我們知道現在燃料電池它發的單價很貴可是它有一個好處它在目前的都市計畫裡面它比儲能還容易找到位置放所以我們可能不知道未來在都會地區我可能不見得能夠放儲能但是我可以放什麼我可以放燃料電池那燃料電池它既然可以發電是不是可以列入台電的電網跟發電裝置的設備當中"},{"start":23762.117,"end":23785.125,"text":"是可以參與嘛 對不對因為他這個是表後的那我們現在是有一個他設置裝備的時候我們是有補助金額然後每一度事實上也有一些補助讓他覺得部長我知道你是講現在的辦法我現在要求的是你規劃未來新能源不要等到開始做了才發現法規沒有準備好我可以跟你預告"},{"start":23785.925,"end":23802.455,"text":"未來很多傳統都市地區不能設置發電廠的它都能設置燃料電池但它需要天然氣管那如果你天然氣管沒有裝它就不能發這樣會造成我們電網跟發電裝置的不匹配所以我希望說未來往下看就是說不要再說我這個地方"},{"start":23803.996,"end":23824.251,"text":"電網沒有設置 連天然氣管也沒有設置那未來有人設的燃料電池他想成為供電跟台電來合作也做不到 你了解嗎所以最後的結論 最後結論時間的關係第一 請農業部檢討法令同意農地上冷庫的負能設施剛剛答應了請經濟部檢討法令冷庫附屬的負能設施得參與台電的售電以最後"},{"start":23830.383,"end":23853.143,"text":"謝謝 麻煩請行政部門送鍾嘉斌委員所需要的報告 謝謝我們接下來請閻寬恆委員質詢 洪玉祥委員請準備"},{"start":23859.439,"end":23864.589,"text":"主席 各位列席官員大家好 主席有請行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選"},{"start":23873.562,"end":23898.251,"text":"院長好現在民眾最關心的就是這幾天就是新聞都在播就是我們進口馬鈴薯的部分那我想請問一下院長針對馬鈴薯的抽菸比例是不是還維持2%另外台灣一年進口約8萬公噸大概是6億顆最主要還是從美國美國大概是佔了6到8成那其他的加拿大 紐澳等國那第二個問題就是說這8萬多公噸的馬鈴薯會不會公佈"},{"start":23903.723,"end":23929.497,"text":"抽到這個抽驗到多少發芽的馬鈴薯那再來就是第三個未來消費者能不能知道來源跟產地就這三個問題可不可以請院長說明一下第一個我們現在馬鈴薯未來進口的方式在美方的出口的檢疫跟我方進口端的檢疫都不會變得更鬆這個檢疫毒性的標準是不變的那抽驗衛福部對這個"},{"start":23931.147,"end":23951.489,"text":"茄檢的這個檢疫從2%到10%這個也是不會變的那我們現在多增加的是一份說你這個整櫃當中如果你是少數的有發芽那可以再經過業者去指定業者農業部指定業者去到一個特定的一個場域加工廠裡面去就逐批逐櫃"},{"start":23952.35,"end":23979.463,"text":"逐顆用輸送帶來看它有沒有長芽長芽的就把它剔除掉就整顆的悔氣那其他的部分當然就會是健康的這個是現在未來可能有規定的未來新的一個方式進來所以是不會的那7萬顆的馬鈴薯當中大概60%是先時用的加工60%40%那另外這些部分先時的部分完全不會有後面這一套"},{"start":23980.163,"end":23994.131,"text":"程序只有加工用的馬鈴薯會有後面這套新的程序所以還是維持百分之二到百分之十我跟委員補充一下這邊的檢測是百分之六十我跟委員補充一下檢測到了有發芽的馬鈴薯也會公佈數量"},{"start":23995.63,"end":24020.492,"text":"然後也會讓我們的消費者知道說我們的產地檢驗它如果超標就退運回去了如果超標就退運回去了我也跟委員補充一下你說的百分之二到百分之十如果說這是一般的根據它的風險如果說它被檢測的話下一次它就提高了它的檢驗的那個頻度了跟它的標準可能會到二十三十這樣子那農業部也是一樣從六十起跳"},{"start":24021.112,"end":24038.78,"text":"如果他被我們發現有一些病狀害有沒有的部分那下一次可能變成百分之八十百分之九十這樣子的方式去處理根據他的風險好謝謝院長部長回到主題我想請問院長因為現在執政黨要重啟核能回頭是岸"},{"start":24040.66,"end":24062.271,"text":"賴總統除了感謝立法院修了核管法我想請教院長是不是也該對當初反對修正核管法的這個執政黨的委員對他們說些什麼還有就是說是不是也應該對當初我們修正了核管法的在野黨黨團說些什麼包括總統跟行政院並沒有對於"},{"start":24063.311,"end":24089.663,"text":"主張贊成或反對修核管法的個別委員有特別的表示我們有任何的意見我們是尊重大院對核管法的修法那總統也感謝說大院修這個修了核管法所以能夠重啟核能所以我想說是不是這個部分那既然要重啟核能我們核二廠核三廠這是舊的核電廠那配套是什麼"},{"start":24090.339,"end":24111.039,"text":"那如果說要新式所謂你說的新式核能就是新建嘛是不是要蓋新的核武場那位置在哪裡院長我們對新式核能就是SMR這個或是MMR這樣的一個新式的核能絕對不是不是這個傳統的核能在增加不是傳統嘛那就是要新建嘛所以不是核二核三嘛對不對"},{"start":24111.999,"end":24133.824,"text":"核二核三是在經過核安會舊台電送出的再延轉計畫以及自主安全檢查審核格之後它可以有重啟的一個機會那要不要重啟要看整個當時社會的共識如何那如果檢查然後同意也審得通過可以重啟舊的核二核三嘛那新式核能就是要新建啊就這樣子啊"},{"start":24134.344,"end":24135.084,"text":"當初廢核沒有充分的跟社會大眾"},{"start":24161.161,"end":24189.961,"text":"做溝通所以才會衍生出後續的爭議2011年那時候宣布這一次要重啟這一次要重啟我們是希望說能夠聽取更多元的聲音不要說我要告訴院長因為錯誤的能源政策確實是會造成國家為國家帶來危機我們的民生用電的不足產業用電出現短缺犧牲民眾的健康也會引發可能的一個國安的憂慮隱憂就像我們中火"},{"start":24190.598,"end":24202.211,"text":"中火現在是台灣最大的電廠所以它我們中部的鄉親因為中火必須要發大量的電提供給全國使用所以中火我們看一下這個數據這個"},{"start":24206.857,"end":24235.293,"text":"我要提的是台電2025年的財報那2025年的稅後盈餘新台幣729億不但是台電睽違三年以來的一個轉睽違表現還優於預期 刷新紀錄台電表示說2025年的盈餘將用來填補累計的虧損那稅這個稅後盈餘當中業外收入140億那剩餘600億都是電力的收入那它合理的利潤是300億喔"},{"start":24236.909,"end":24256.261,"text":"那增加了300億的一個一個所謂的就是電力收入那這些就是從我們去年的調整電價來的嘛對不對就是從去年調整電價所以才會有這額外的300億好那我們看一下我們從去年廢核之後我們來自核能工業的電力少了400多億度400多億度"},{"start":24258.462,"end":24279.658,"text":"那有學者舉例嘛假設一半由天然氣然後每度成本3.2元那四分之一由太陽光電每度成本5元四分之一由風電每度成本7元來替代這個發電成本每度只要1.1元的核電那台電相當於白白少賺了1200億"},{"start":24281.158,"end":24291.607,"text":"那這就是非核家園付出的一個最低的代價這1200億的損失最終還是你我還有全體的國人核包的損失都是我們要負擔的你剛才也提到核關法的規定它就只能40年而已"},{"start":24299.193,"end":24315.854,"text":"不得不停下來這是法律上的規定只有法改了以後才有辦法可能再啟動你剛才也提到了那2011年那時候就是決定不願意因為福島發生這個核災嘛那時候也是那時候潮大野大喔"},{"start":24317.16,"end":24343.456,"text":"這決定喔好啦好啦謝謝啦因為我想最主要還是要回到台中火力發電廠的問題因為執政黨答應過我們地方鄉親說要用燃氣取代燃煤降低空污嘛但是現在台中港區既有的這個儲存槽目前是六座加上年底完工的兩座就是八座那這還有在計畫在外港區擴建的四座十二座再加上五階"},{"start":24344.554,"end":24362.015,"text":"的5座總共是17座全部都集中在台中港那天然氣儲存槽現在是地方最擔心的問題二階還沒做完還有五階那政策的一個遭遇細改苦的就是我們當地的民眾而且傷的也是我們"},{"start":24362.876,"end":24390.608,"text":"民眾的荷包啦 全體民眾的荷包所以希望院長可以看到這一點這總共17座5階加2階17座的這個天然氣儲氣槽如果萬一發生什麼公安沒有人 公安意外沒有人願意 但是如果假設假設發生什麼公安意外這個是零所效應是不堪想像因為你都全部集中在台中港區而且天然氣全部都仰賴進口"},{"start":24391.668,"end":24416.08,"text":"我們從這個不管是我們一直提醒執政黨說一定會受到國際情勢然後天氣的狀況還有反應的狀況現在中東的戰況持續的延燒問題全部都反映出來了全部都反映出來所以對我們當地居民的壓力非常的大儲氣槽的這個建制還有就是我們當地漁民的一個懲請"},{"start":24417.662,"end":24436.222,"text":"中游目前正在計畫接收站之間的串聯我們的海底輸氣管線的部件一定會影響這些漁民捕撈的漁場讓漁民的捕撈權益受損再加上我們這個港務公司毛泊區不斷的外擴所以這些儲氣槽"},{"start":24437.523,"end":24447.833,"text":"相關的這些建設是千里法動全身所以院長部長我想要請教你們有沒有全面的考慮到所衍生的這些漁民捕撈的權益還有所有的民生問題"},{"start":24449.091,"end":24468.148,"text":"跟委員報告這個台中的發電廠在2026年也會有新的燃氣機組會上來所以包括台中以及其他高雄的興達也會有所以我們各地都是按照計畫來偵測四階五階等等以及三階的擴充它的除氣槽"},{"start":24469.529,"end":24485.562,"text":"這個都是按照計畫當中的所以也沒有集中在台中而已是各地都需要配備需要的另外工程進行的時候當然要高度的要求公安這個是責無旁貸的責任經濟部或中油或是台電都必須要達到這個標準再來就是在剛"},{"start":24486.643,"end":24495.489,"text":"臨海地區當然有漁場的一些經驗要去處理那麼從三階四階生育的保護或是漁場的漁獲的維護都有相當的經驗我也認為未來的處理我們應該從經驗當中會處理得比現在更好"},{"start":24502.034,"end":24528.377,"text":"好 那我再請問因為環評都有要求環評過我們才會施工包括那個怎麼樣怎麼樣留下或是什麼那個都有環評上的規定怎麼樣盡量的保護漁場這個有相關的規定要有新的作為啦因為現在這個毛泊區的外擴我們台中港所有的漁民因為毛泊區的外擴就已經產生了非常大程度的一些影響"},{"start":24529.307,"end":24544.734,"text":"現在再加上我們這個海底所有管線的部件這個又是雪上加霜這部分我想請院長跟部長一定要重視我們一定會注意到我在這邊再請教院長就過去我們一直喊蒸汽減煤我們希望其實重點就是在減煤而且"},{"start":24546.229,"end":24561.189,"text":"中火也是全國最大的一個燃煤電廠那現在我們即將要重啟核能能不能具體的承諾我們台中的市民我們這個減煤的速度能不能再加快腳步"},{"start":24562.31,"end":24590.973,"text":"減煤啊院長有指示本來是2034年齁完全就是無煤嘛齁台中的部分那院長有指示說看能不能提前兩年啊那我們盡量來看看怎麼樣的做法提前兩年啊2032年對 這樣我們盡量來所以這個就是院長答應的就是要往這個目標做我去年到中火的時候我看到整個的計畫我認為絕對有那個空間那前提是現在的以氣換煤的新的燃氣機組要能夠照他的時程能夠上來"},{"start":24591.553,"end":24607.906,"text":"包括2026年有兩部機組就要上來了那我們就可以適時搭現有的燃煤機組做更適當的備用或是其他的處理方式院長我為什麼要提這個因為從112年到114年的9月中火一共發生了8次的公安意外"},{"start":24608.963,"end":24634.854,"text":"而且這還不包含沒有通報地方消防的這些事件那我們也對於第一線的工作人員他們非常的辛苦我們也感到對他們也是覺得說非常的這樣子的不捨但是我想第一線在中國大多數的從業人員都是在地的鄉親那我是希望說院長你有時間你還是要安排一下專程來到台中港"},{"start":24635.613,"end":24663.954,"text":"來看我們這個17座未來要布建的這17座的儲存槽以及台中火力發電廠就是中火他目前的設置還有當地民眾我們從業人員他們的工作環境可以嗎 院長好的 我現在也正想去台中港看看未來現在我們已經積極請台中一起來協助處理的這個建築剩餘土石方的問題我可以一併去看看這幾個重大的國家這個公共工程的建設"},{"start":24665.506,"end":24689.055,"text":"好現在是四月份那接下來就是我們用電高峰所以就是說用電高峰期就是檢視我們電網韌性工程的一個成果那院長能不能院長部長請你們宣示就是說今年我們不會因為電網老舊也不會因為設備的問題來又發生大停電目前的供應量是沒有問題"},{"start":24694.461,"end":24698.23,"text":"電網的韌性我們現在是很積極的在改善當中"},{"start":24700.112,"end":24725.484,"text":"我們因為2022年這個0303全國大停電所以台電開始了為期10年的5645億強化電網韌性計畫來對全國各區的電網變電所還有接線改善、愛子清洗等來做加強所以這已經4年了嘛已經4年了所以能不能請部長說明一下目前成果如何"},{"start":24726.923,"end":24742.238,"text":"我們現在目前就是說把一些比較高壓的部分直供到這個工業區裡面去不要再經過跟民眾來併用那這個部分已經有在主要還是從幾個科學園區先來做一些處理了"},{"start":24743.427,"end":24760.461,"text":"那台電他去年賺錢多賺了三百億嘛多賺了三百億他這些是因為他補充以前有累積的虧損大概四千億要來還以前的累積虧損嘛那如果剩餘的部分這些錢是不是也會持續的加碼而且他今年又要"},{"start":24761.281,"end":24761.722,"text":"我想這個電網韌性的部分"},{"start":24781.237,"end":24804.151,"text":"我們居民最大的店長那你還有所有的社會社會在地的部門行政我們在地的居民行政停電的時候我們也要省 反而也都沒在停電所以老闆好歡迎這些部門的基礎設施我們要進行檢查我們請店長 部長把這些對地方貢獻的救援金一定要實施的來回我會跟委員一樣我們關心中部對岸的問題"},{"start":24812.585,"end":24830.265,"text":"好 謝謝顏寬恒委員質詢 謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長備詢 謝謝接下來本日最後一位質詢的委員 洪裕祥委員 請質詢"},{"start":24839.278,"end":24866.288,"text":"好謝謝主席有請這個卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢副委員好院長好辛苦了最後一場好那我們想要來看的是延續在上次的討論之前先跟院長許個願一下下一頁"},{"start":24869.346,"end":24879.646,"text":"就是說因為我從加拿大畢業之後我就投入軟體業界然後在資通訊所以很多園區的大廠這些不管是他們的資訊系統"},{"start":24882.133,"end":24898.118,"text":"政府的採購系統我大概做過但是我們在這個採購法這一塊其實我們資訊服務系統的採購跟我們一般造橋鋪路不太一樣所以我們在二十幾年來我們一直希望在採購法這邊可以針對資訊服務系統的採購去做一個專門的那我上次質詢這個"},{"start":24905.885,"end":24927.554,"text":"曾經的委員的時候那因為先前葉哲良副主委他是有做這樣的資訊服務系統的指引那我想在年底前的修法那我們也希望把他納入資訊的服務專章這個再請院長幫忙一下這樣子因為我覺得這個對AI行動內閣是很重要的也對我們的政府資訊系統是很重要的一環"},{"start":24929.212,"end":24957.65,"text":"這是許願 下次會再許願我也相信現階段的跟過去的採購概念上應該有很大的差異對 尤其不同的對象 不同的品項 不同的技術所以我會跟工程會好好的研究請他們迅速就這個部分來提出那也向委員來請教好 謝謝那因為我們延續我們上次討論的關稅的議題那就是可能很多委員都問過其實到我們現在ART MOU還是沒有收到"},{"start":24958.655,"end":24976.835,"text":"那沒有收到當然我們相信也有很多的原因跟這個狀況那不曉得有沒有哪一些就是ART、MOU的內容是可以說在沒有牽扯到機密的情況之下等等是不是可以先送到我們這些委員來做一些參考"},{"start":24978.548,"end":25000.58,"text":"談判團隊回來的時候我們有公布了一些內容MOU的部分啊MOU現在只有美國因為官網上有公布他的flagship那因為完整的他還在行政上他沒有做行政上的公布那我們的ART也算確定了嗎還沒有因為他還在做法律工具的轉換"},{"start":25002.489,"end":25028.863,"text":"如果有就儘快 再不牽扯到這種談判機密的情況你那天又啟動了301的調查我知道我知道我現在是說如果可以嘛在某些的一些可揭露的資訊不然我現在都是瞎子摸象就是摸不太清楚談判團隊回來的時候我們有公開一部分那部分現在還不會確定但是我們依照那個內容正在跟美方確認也確保我們在阿台當中所得到的待遇"},{"start":25029.423,"end":25058.801,"text":"沒錯啦 因為現在ART啦 122 122也看起來也是會有問題根據這前一陣子法院的問題所以我想這個目前301的準備還是一個很重要的一環再下一頁那因為上次我還是很代表廠商就是說整個整合資訊的窗口查證那上次政府業長也答應我說要做一個整合的然後是在這個OTN的網站可是我看了很久還是沒有"},{"start":25060.61,"end":25079.77,"text":"還是沒有所以這個再麻煩因為我想AR行動內閣還是一樣沒有什麼改變就是把ART啦然後這些東西放上來就這樣子而已但是我要查一些新的關稅者我還是要各部會各部會去看而且你們放的都只是新聞稿跟文件所以還是希望做一個資訊系統的"},{"start":25081.792,"end":25110.333,"text":"揭露跟整合如果經貿辦公室做不了就請經濟部做經貿辦公室主要還是談判相關的議題因為上次政府院長答應我的經濟部做上次專報在2月初的時候到現在事實上沒有新的確定的內容變更都在原來的狀態裡面美方是在做法律因為有些貨物品像是食物現在因為都是食"},{"start":25110.993,"end":25135.907,"text":"然後有一些蝴蝶藍本來是進口到那邊是零然後現在變成食物等等我說讓它維持一致的資訊嘛因為資訊的呈現還是希望real time跟正確好不好我請官部長這個應該可以啦好不好來下一頁那上次也是一個問題啊就是我們那一個2.5N在我們建廠的時候晶片輸美嘛對不對那個N是產能"},{"start":25137,"end":25148.3,"text":"所以上次我在問的是問了四次就是2.5N然後之後你建廠之後量產的1.5N所以那個N那個產能我今天就給到底是"},{"start":25149.437,"end":25172.359,"text":"我們台灣政府認定?還是台積電認定?還是美國政府認定?這個我們還在跟美國協商當中因為他等到他232公布以後他就確認因為他現在232還沒有公布但是我們那個N你期待是誰來認定?就是我們心中先不管美國對我們最有利我們跟他討論當然是希望用產能"},{"start":25173.769,"end":25186.77,"text":"那個產能是誰認定我們跟他共同嗎因為我們去投資廠商以後那廠商投資了多少錢可能創造多少的產能這個部分雙方要有一個確認"},{"start":25188.325,"end":25212.384,"text":"好啦我是希望是說我們台灣政府在這一個產能的認定可以大一點強韌一點這個是我的期待我們一定爭取最最最最優秀那你就給我的答案就是我也獲得答案嘛就是我們台灣政府對不對跟我們台積電講好只有一個好的數字然後堅決跟美國去做好的談判是不是這樣子好來下一個"},{"start":25214.696,"end":25230.581,"text":"那我為什麼要問這一個因為現在川普又在說一件事他把50%的晶片的產能移到美國然後他也說了伍特尼克說美光要投資2000億我們台積電有1650億之後他說台灣會再追加5000億也就是我們講的2500億加2500億的信保"},{"start":25239.192,"end":25244.858,"text":"他說這樣加起來是一兆 接近一兆那剛剛這個 這川普講的不是我講的 魯范尼克講的 所以說"},{"start":25248.374,"end":25270.09,"text":"因為最重要還是根據那個MOU嘛我們MOU怎麼簽我們就照MOU來簽所以他講的是騙我們的嘛不是那個是他還是他的期待我不曉得他是怎麼樣的依據我們就沒有辦法但是我們就是針對我們跟他簽MOU因為那個數字多起來都很合理啊因為1650億的台積電合理嘛2500億加2500億 5000億的美金也合理啦那是"},{"start":25275.013,"end":25302.534,"text":"1650那個已經公佈了我知道啊,5000億他說的,魯特尼克說的2500加2500那個是完全不一樣的那沒關係,我現在回過頭來問一件事就是說我們當時在想蘇美這麼多出口的產值來講的話我們的半導體晶片加上衍生性的產品大概是佔了76%左右對不對,最大宗所以那時候我們怕被他課稅"},{"start":25304.527,"end":25321.812,"text":"因為川普也威脅說你不把他移過來不到這邊設廠就可以重稅我現在這一張的問題就是部長因為可能院長太過分了來問部長半導體晶片的課稅怎麼課說實在的話他也還沒有講清楚他說現在"},{"start":25326.232,"end":25327.893,"text":"如果我是回答下晶片下去給了台積電"},{"start":25345.987,"end":25374.015,"text":"那台積電做好完輝達的晶片之後他是進到輝達的貨倉所以整個輝達的貨倉那整個都還是輝達的貨輝達的貨進到美國根據美國關稅他就根據他的IPO也就是說你現在的Owner是誰進口商是誰所以是輝達的貨是輝達要付關稅好even是Google下單給聯發科做TPU然後再到TSMC出來到鴻海組裝還是Google的server"},{"start":25376.369,"end":25400.103,"text":"進去進口還是Google要付關稅跟晶片的owner因為主要是進口商是誰跟院長報告進口商是誰所以呢基本上來講的話台灣都是這種模式尤其在我們的高科技廠台灣不會有走這種台灣不會走這種DTP關稅或交貨"},{"start":25403.665,"end":25419.605,"text":"這種就是賣方要付稅,付完完稅之後再到買方去那我們台灣都是上一張我們是代工對,不是,百分對代工的話就是百分之百是上面這一張的一個模式所以課不到水所以他如果要加裝我們不管"},{"start":25420.666,"end":25446.106,"text":"半導體晶片或者是伺服器等等組裝的產品除了低階啦低階的話我們這些不管像NB伺服器它反正就在德州美墨家這邊就設廠了不管是偽創、鴻海、仁寶對不對、鴻基這些所以我的意思就是說不管它關稅晶片、半導體晶片怎麼課它就是課不到因為它就是必須仰賴我們生產製造"},{"start":25448.593,"end":25457.942,"text":"報告委員目前來講的話比如說對本關稅的課法的確是課進口商的但是進口商的因為他被課了如果提高稅的話"},{"start":25459.144,"end":25481.054,"text":"他會反映給他的代工商我台積電就把價债回到你NVIDIA、Google、Apple所以應該是NVIDIA、Google、Apple這些去push川普叫他不要亂搞所以我的意思是說最後的結論就是"},{"start":25482.299,"end":25508.999,"text":"我們的半導體太強不用讓太多強勢一點要是我是部長我真的不讓因為我在半導體產業在資通訊那麼久所以我們基本上是尊重廠商他因為商業上的原因到美國去佈局這個是我們尊重明白所以為什麼要導出這件事情就是說我們要跟國人講的我們半導體根本不怕你瞌睡"},{"start":25511.269,"end":25533.886,"text":"所以呢這個剩下只是商業雙方的行為對不對但是因為我們的不可替代性沒有辦法替代太高了所以呢基本上就不要害怕那下一個重點就是既然我們半導體不害怕蘇美那麼多產值不害怕的情況之下我覺得我們跳到農那一張農業"},{"start":25538.567,"end":25564.683,"text":"就是我們在一些農業的一些的不管是什麼樣子的方式我是覺得都不應該讓啦不要讓啦因為他拿我們半導體拿我們這些高級是沒者不要讓太多像剛剛很多委員就問了馬鈴薯滋亂很多馬鈴薯滋亂是真的很多那我的意思是說剛剛院長也講了一顆一顆查驗不對嘛食藥署說2%嘛"},{"start":25568.585,"end":25581.58,"text":"對 百分之二的查驗剛剛鍾嘉斌委員做球給你們講了一大堆那我的問題也很單純就是假設我查驗在以前的話可能是整批貨櫃就退了"},{"start":25583.322,"end":25603.523,"text":"那現在在他說我食藥署的這個應該是署長他YouTube裡頭就講他說沒有我們一顆查出來有fire我們就退一顆我覺得不太對啦我覺得應該是退整櫃就是保障國人的健康優先啦所以檢驗超標的話那是整櫃會退"},{"start":25604.324,"end":25617.554,"text":"對啦 我是說他的節檢檢驗 超標就會退一顆都不要 因為我覺得沒有超標如果看到裡面有發芽的那麼我們就要來進行農業部後續的工作反正現在就是"},{"start":25619.196,"end":25634.878,"text":"絕對不是院長講的一顆一顆驗嘛百分之二那是前端時間暫停好不好那個我們請農業部長上備訓台好不好不好意思百分之二那百分之十那當然不是一顆一顆驗那是抽驗百分之二到百分之十"},{"start":25635.479,"end":25655.188,"text":"那如果沒有超標那這個就沒有問題但沒有超標裡面如果看到有芽它會進到農業部農業部就會業者剛剛沒有聽完整個那些的回答質詢所以10%那個絕對不是一顆一顆是後端的這個部分好啦 因為院長講話講太快了嘛就會被做文章因為沒有時間讓我們這樣好好的講"},{"start":25657.068,"end":25684.893,"text":"好沒問題但是我是覺得國內還是覺得這些東西的毒素殘留還是非常的不安全對我來講不過我剛剛委員報告很簡單的講沒關係下一個議題下一個議題的話就是說整個在ART3.33就第三點三條的38項規定台灣的狂牛證BS1相關法規不適用於美國野牛這個是不是很恐怖啊"},{"start":25689.083,"end":25717.666,"text":"這個不是我寫的我要跟委員報告就是我們針對美國部分的BSA部分他已經被認定是就是BSE的可忽略的國家那可忽略的國家的部分他的領域的部分的所有的相關的這些產品是可以進來但是我們國家還是保齡的部分的品項是不能進來的所以跟這個野領域的部分那野領域如果傳染到肉林的部分的話那美國那邊就會被判其他的一個做法"},{"start":25718.286,"end":25746.005,"text":"這是野牛協會2026年2月19號發布的官方新聞稿他說在台美對貿ART當中明確規定台灣的狂牛政相應法規不適用於美國野牛所以我只要是美國野牛隨便進第一個美國野牛是不會進來因為一般的進口像我們台灣的牛肉自給率只有4.6所以大部分的牛肉如果從美國進來的時候都是他們專用的肉牛沒關係來下一個"},{"start":25747.662,"end":25767.031,"text":"所以我是覺得說還有很多東西我是覺得不應該是去讓這件事情可能在台灣這邊再嚴守一點這是我們全民的健康下一頁再往下我覺得這一陣子我收到很多這樣子不管動物用藥、塑膠袋之類的依財價格然後經貿半霸凌"},{"start":25783.119,"end":25784.86,"text":"好 謝謝洪祐祥委員質詢 謝謝卓院長各位那個列席閣員 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50條還有施行細則的規定藥商跟藥局都不能賣藥給獸醫師"},{"start":83.43,"end":94.601,"text":"如果違反了這樣的規定根據92條會被處以3萬到200萬的罰款所以呢院長的部長的說法顯然是有錯誤"},{"start":96.377,"end":125.609,"text":"那如果這是一個錯誤的說法也就是藥商跟藥局根本不能夠賣藥給獸醫師請問怎麼會出現部長所說的獸醫師可以直接跟藥商跟藥局買藥這樣的一個局面呢我想部長完全是搞錯了為什麼會搞錯呢可能是因為他對動保法四條二項的規定完全沒有掌握藥部就是故意忽略了藥事法"},{"start":128.391,"end":145.629,"text":"49條50條還有施行細則33條的規定還有92條的罰則所以我們在這邊呼籲部長請問你是不是要去補修法律的學分那事實上藥事法跟凍飽法中間存在漢格那也導致"},{"start":147.115,"end":162.143,"text":"受益師還有藥師他們之間存在一個矛盾的現象身為主管機關應該要積極推動修法化解這個僵局而不是消極的不作為所幸我們看到執政黨的立委針對藥事法50條也提出修正"},{"start":162.663,"end":178.738,"text":"就是想要讓獸醫師針對人用藥物取得購買權而不是困在目前的僵局所以我們也希望執政黨的立委能夠去給我們部長好好的上一課建構這個正確的法律概念那除此之外我們也"},{"start":179.378,"end":202.343,"text":"呼籲部長要跟國人道歉因為你說獸醫師可以直接跟藥商去買藥這根本是啟動一個違法的狀態我們當然是希望獸醫師可以直接跟藥商買藥有一個合法的權源但這個不是靠部長亂說就可以達成這個必須按照修法的程序來修法才可以所以我們呼籲部長能夠修藥事法"},{"start":203.496,"end":231.09,"text":"五十條的規定如果你不願意修藥事法的規定那就應該要啟動凍飽法的修法台灣民眾黨已經針對凍飽法來啟動修法希望能夠讓要獸醫師針對凍飽藥物能夠取得購買權以上說明好謝謝邱惠如委員的發言謝謝接下來我們請張志倫委員發言陳冠廷委員請準備"},{"start":244.793,"end":273.199,"text":"院長各位同仁各位媒體朋友大家早安大家好本期今天要嚴正警告民進黨政府食安是健康底線不容許任何退讓發芽馬鈴薯產生的龍葵鹼具有強烈神經毒性醫學界已明確指出務實可能在短時間內引發腸胃不適嘴唇發麻嚴重時甚至會導致呼吸衰竭及危及生命"},{"start":273.819,"end":294.048,"text":"我們必須徹底破除把發芽處挖掉就可以吃的說法但政府目前的檢查標準卻顯得寬鬆及充滿危機本席必須從保護孩子的角度嚴正譴責政府這次荒腔左反的做法然而"},{"start":295.233,"end":322.575,"text":"面對民間與學界對放寬美國發芽馬鈴薯進口的強烈質疑政府的第一反應居然不是虛心檢討以及嚴格把關標準而是動員側翼大規模的洗地試圖弱化發芽馬鈴薯有毒的科學常識民進黨政府為了趕快簽署對等貿易協定食安底線一再對美國退讓"},{"start":323.744,"end":342.649,"text":"過去政府側翼以官媒大肆宣傳經貿辦的談判手腕將其塑造成為台灣利益的鋼鐵堡壘但現實卻是政府在民眾權益上步步退讓現在居然連最基本的食安防線都可以棄守"},{"start":344.229,"end":372.418,"text":"從過去零容忍發現一顆發芽就整櫃退回的標準如今卻成為討好美國卻輕易打破我們的嚴格標準面對輿論的怒火卓院長在國會殿堂信誓旦旦保證進口馬鈴薯會每一顆拿出來檢查然而卓院長的空投支票隨即遭到食藥署的隔空打臉食藥署不僅坦言現階段"},{"start":373.393,"end":396.833,"text":"人維持最低只有2%的抽檢率目前全台灣的邊際檢查人力只有105人實際聘用只有85個人要做到整櫃檢查根本不可能一年幾千個貨櫃高達四五億顆的馬鈴薯請問民進黨政府要如何逐顆檢查"},{"start":398.274,"end":414.845,"text":"回顧過去卓院長的邏輯轉彎已經不是初犯面對廚餘處理問題他拋出把食物吃光就不會有廚餘這種解決不了問題就解決常識的治國風格已經讓行政院徹底淪為笑柄"},{"start":416.246,"end":428.096,"text":"本席在最後要請求行政院不要把大內宣塑造成談判英雄最後卻犧牲人民的權益為全國孩子們打造一個安全的生長環境吧謝謝"},{"start":455.999,"end":483.163,"text":"各位同仁院長還有我們今天與會的所有的官員們今天是有一些話想要對我們在野黨的同仁說也對所有的國民說我知道我們的政治立場是很不太一樣但是在這一個國防特別條約的時候我有看到說許多的年輕的委員很多新生代委員願意展現出誠意不管是在會前會後會中都想要找一個共同點"},{"start":483.783,"end":506.023,"text":"想要找一個中間點想要找一個折衝點那朝野喜商也是一樣那我想民主的這個進程很明顯就是我們不可能任何一個政黨都一樣它沒有辦法得到我們所有想要達成的政策目標那這就是為什麼現在的民主政治會有制衡可是我還是要強調一下我們堅持的"},{"start":506.889,"end":522.438,"text":"國防特別條例裡面的1.25兆裡面的不對稱戰力在我們談論的這幾個月的過程當中到昨天最後在協商的時候我發覺到時候我們沒有找到折衝點甚至我們又回到過去"},{"start":523.26,"end":535.325,"text":"因為就國民黨的在第五條裡面的針對這個不對稱戰利的計畫採購他把這些項目重樣的重新再羅列一次也就是回到最開始3800加N的這個狀況"},{"start":537.779,"end":554.813,"text":"那我們也看到說在這幾個月從這個盧市長到這一個徐曉新委員韓國瑜院長然後昨天前天趙超康先生他其實慢慢的在把數字跟這一個採購的項目它的概括性在擴大可是昨天"},{"start":556.155,"end":576.342,"text":"很遺憾回到我們的第五條裡面那還是一樣再回到三個月前四個月前的這個進度那我們覺得這樣子的話就是沒有討論為基礎就是沒有再對話這樣子的話這樣朝野協商就沒有完成好的協商所以我還是要呼籲善意是可以累積的善意是透過對話來去達成的"},{"start":577.802,"end":600.38,"text":"那在這個過程當中我們會有很多爭論但是至少我們還是要往前走那我一直在講說三階段我們第一階段應該是要把軍購完整的納入整個項目再來第二個 維治台美合作的部分那最後再把商購來做全面性的討論可是我們最近這幾次的討論還是一樣從第一關就卡關所以我這邊還是要強調在野黨"},{"start":604.082,"end":624.209,"text":"去中國跟中國談判或者是中國來去對話但是有一個最重要的底氣就是台灣的國防如果我們台灣沒有具備任何的不對稱戰力不管是無人載具反制無人載具的能力的話那你們的對話就沒有意義你們的對話沒有辦法建立在實力上面我們一直說"},{"start":626.058,"end":643.717,"text":"用實力達成和平那我們要有至少在臺灣我們的國土範圍內的絕對的實力才能達到絕對的和平這個部分還是請財政黨來思考一下好 謝謝陳冠廷委員的發言 謝謝接下來我們請蔡春籌委員發言羅志強委員請準備"},{"start":666.874,"end":696.386,"text":"院長各位同仁大家早今天我想從剛才看到的國際趨勢出發來談談台灣目前最急迫的轉型危機金融時報在4月13日有一篇報導明確的指出亞太地區新創版圖正在發生劇烈的變動南韓新加坡"},{"start":697.27,"end":725.897,"text":"甚至印度都在請全國致力將AI轉化為產業產主在這一份亞太高速成長公司的一個排行中新加坡和印度各佔101家日本有82家南韓有76家台灣只有入選16家在這一份常列500家的一個"},{"start":726.738,"end":750.999,"text":"榜當中我一直看到第97才看到第一家台灣公司上榜我們政府投入了大量的資源在AI的一個研發補助設立了很多的研究計畫但大家看一看我們的AI軟體產業產值在哪裡呢"},{"start":752.728,"end":773.929,"text":"如果我們只會做硬體沒有軟體的靈魂那台灣在AI時代就只有做白人的代工廠我在此對行政院提出三點強烈的建議第一 跳脫硬體思維補助政策不能只有看到"},{"start":776.031,"end":780.297,"text":"產線或是硬體的採購要真正將獎勵軟體開發還有數據的服務將產值的轉換第二要建立產業示範區"},{"start":789.953,"end":817.635,"text":"將AI導致教育跟運動產業讓新創的技術有實驗的場域把研發能量跟商業產值第三 人才培育國際化不能只會寫程式要培養出能定義全球規格 具備商業思維的AI人才"},{"start":818.598,"end":847.567,"text":"院長 富國神山不能只有一座當硬體優勢已經全球分散化的時候台灣的軟體實力還有世紀價值畢竟要成為我們新的防護網不要讓台灣的AI實力只停留在實驗室的報告書裡我們要讓它成為實實在在的國家競爭力"},{"start":850.303,"end":852.184,"text":"龍奎簡可怕但是龍奎簡政府更可怕"},{"start":878.768,"end":906.429,"text":"龍奎簡很毒但是龍奎簡政府更毒最近我們在網路上我看到一個不可思議的景象整個是我們綠色網軍洗腦的一個政治奇蹟在宣傳龍奎簡不可怕發芽的馬鈴薯可以吃不要擔心為什麼"},{"start":907.844,"end":933.143,"text":"因為我們出了一個龍奎簡政府今天在對美的談判上食安大開口直接放棄了今天對於馬鈴薯發芽的一個邊境管制為了要今天去轉這個龍奎簡政府的場就出現了這些洗腦的言論我這邊再次強烈的告訴大家"},{"start":935.266,"end":962.483,"text":"龍奎減很可怕發芽的馬鈴薯不能吃不要今天看到民進黨放寬了食安的標準就連自己的健康安全都不管啦開始洗腦啊過去我們可以看到馬鈴薯一旦有發芽腐爛就要整批退運啊可是我們政府談的ART改成新制"},{"start":964.046,"end":993.198,"text":"發芽或品質異常不再一律整批退運都發現發芽跟腐爛了沒有退運先送到指定加工廠由業者選別挑出發芽個體銷毀這不是放寬什麼是放寬從發芽就整批退的嚴格的食安把關到最後要單顆處理這就是出賣台灣人民的健康"},{"start":995.071,"end":1013.59,"text":"政府事前偷跑低調公告縮短預告期就在ART的記者會上完全不提今天放寬發芽馬鈴薯進到台灣來只會喝珍奶大肆慶祝製造一片生平的景象"},{"start":1014.929,"end":1042.019,"text":"被抓包以後 幹什麼呢告訴大家 我會一顆一顆檢查左宗泰講的不要擔心我們偉大的龍奎檢政府一定會一顆一顆檢查馬鈴薯騙你的什麼叫一顆一顆檢查每年一億顆以上的進口馬鈴薯你今天進來以後民進黨政府的做法是什麼所謂逐顆查驗政府人力不夠是交給廠商查"},{"start":1044.389,"end":1056.911,"text":"親愛的台灣人民 你能相信嗎這個政府比龍奎簡還要毒 謝謝好 謝謝羅志強委員的發言 謝謝接下來我們請林倩琪委員發言 侯孟愷委員請準備"},{"start":1069.42,"end":1071.12,"text":"政府是不是在貿易談判當中用國人的健康作為交換的籌碼"},{"start":1092.105,"end":1117.35,"text":"近期台美貿易協定放寬了發芽馬鈴薯的進口規定衛福部對於榮奎減榮許值從零容忍到容納200ppm這是重大的食安退讓農業部還幫腔說這是在比照日本本時要呼籲如果要學日本就請學整套的制度不能用半套來誤導國人"},{"start":1119.522,"end":1148.131,"text":"日本嚴格限制進口馬鈴薯不得進入生鮮市場只能走極少數管道直接進入特定加工廠而且在工廠內只要發芽超過一定的標準就必須整批淘汰讓毒素沒有機會流入市場這是一套從源頭到末端的封閉管理機制反觀台灣呢現在不僅是邊境放寬標準容許部分發芽"},{"start":1148.971,"end":1173.551,"text":"检验也是看是否低于数值发霉不够严重的就不用整批销毁甚至只要单颗剔除就可以继续流通成人呢摄取过量的龙葵碱会中毒严重的甚至会危及生命对孩童的风险更高政府却用低于标准即可轻描淡写的带过面对质疑"},{"start":1174.372,"end":1202.662,"text":"我們左院長竟然在國會的殿堂上表示可以整櫃檢查每一顆拿出來檢驗這種發言是對全民嘗試挑戰的不負責任的發言這是試圖用誇張不實的承諾來掩蓋制度的漏洞豬肉目前至少還有產地標示讓消費者有選擇權但是發芽馬鈴薯一旦進入了加工體系消費者還有辨識的能力嗎"},{"start":1203.522,"end":1218.953,"text":"本席在這邊嚴正呼籲三點第一涉及毒品風險的農產品必須要採取嚴格的進口與流向管制第二可能進入加工體系的原料應該建立強制標示與溯源制度"},{"start":1219.693,"end":1237.072,"text":"第三涉及食安浪部的贸易谈判内容都应该要公开透明接受国会与社会的检验如果政府一再退让却不能诚实地面对风险最终被侵蚀的不是只有食安防线而是人民对整个政府的信任"},{"start":1237.833,"end":1264.004,"text":"本席呼籲行政院停止用話術來哄騙社會應該要回歸到制度面去做檢討請卓院長不要再用每一科都檢查這樣不切實際的說法來糊弄人民政府要守住的是國人最基本好謝謝林建琦委員的反應謝謝接下來我們請本日國事論壇最後一位發言侯孟凱委員請發言"},{"start":1279.676,"end":1307.592,"text":"主席 梁院院長以及各位同仁上個禮拜我們在討論邊形打詐本席在國事論壇裡面再一次強調邊形打詐是要讓全民有一個能夠表達意見的機會我們用公投的方式是要訴諸直接的民意我們希望讓政府聽見人民對於詐騙真的深惡痛絕沒有辦法再接受但很遺憾的是我覺得現在的執政黨也好或是說綠營也好是完全劃錯重點"},{"start":1309.448,"end":1320.181,"text":"你應該要去思考的是為什麼提出邊行打詐公投或是邊行打詐對付虐童性侵詐騙要用邊行這樣的方式民意為何高漲"},{"start":1322.417,"end":1339.306,"text":"綠營現在風向非常的荒謬非常的混亂非常的奇怪一開始先講說是人權倒退這是退步的法令後來發覺民意不站在這一邊又在講說要改口要加碼要把國安反滲透甚至超速維停全部納進來變成邊形的對付對象"},{"start":1343.408,"end":1361.837,"text":"這種荒謬至極的講法除了民粹 除了想要把它混淆視聽我真的不知道有什麼實質能夠理性討論的空間其實政府 卓院長或是我們相關的文武百官們大家思考一下一句話"},{"start":1363.328,"end":1379.753,"text":"武狀元舒啟兒這部電影裡面講的丐幫之所以人多絕對不是丐幫幫主英明神武而是取決於皇帝的治理是否良好如果皇帝今天真的千秋萬世文成武德的話誰都不想要去當乞丐"},{"start":1382.074,"end":1409.408,"text":"鬼才想要去當乞丐一樣的道理今天如果說政府對於詐騙犯罪的態度是積極的是有效的是嚇阻的是能夠讓詐騙集團消失在台灣社會的我們為什麼要去討論邊行就是因為過去這幾年民眾看到性侵、虐童、詐騙、犯罪持續層出不窮甚至讓"},{"start":1411.078,"end":1428.607,"text":"加害者沒有嚇阻效果 沒有警惕效果 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副總召 歡迎 歡迎 請坐還有另外兩位呢還有蘇理長跟首席來來來 歡迎 歡迎 歡迎還在等台灣民眾黨團好 王小曉 OK OK好 謝謝謝謝各位黨團幹部也幾位熱關心的牛許廷委員馬文君委員 徐喬欣委員 黃建斌委員還有陳冠廷委員熱情歡迎我們今天要繼續協商軍購特別條"},{"start":2211.907,"end":2239.708,"text":"條例草案 在這裡再一次介紹我們今天列席的重要的閣員、官員我們首先歡迎國防部副部長以及國防部所屬的所有列席的官員熱情歡迎財政部國庫署陳署長 歡迎經濟部陳副署長 歡迎法部廖參事 歡迎速發部、衛福部、國家發展委員會、公共工程委員會所有列席的各位官員 大家午安 非常歡迎"},{"start":2241.479,"end":2267.17,"text":"好各位所有列席的黨團幹部我們今天開始就繼續要進入主條討論我們就開始進行第一條的主條討論好嗎好有關立法目的的版文有現在有行政院民眾黨團國民黨團的版本那我想請各黨團輪流發言台灣民眾黨團先提出來請發言好嗎謝謝"},{"start":2272.745,"end":2292.471,"text":"第一條好 謝謝院長那關於我們軍過的特別條例那我其實也代表台灣民眾黨都要表達過很多次"},{"start":2294.284,"end":2320.432,"text":"那台灣民眾黨一直以來我們的題目就是保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例所以我們對因應這個中共的一個軍事的威脅持續的一個擴張及為建制可保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力的武器裝備"},{"start":2322.413,"end":2342.889,"text":"運用同城的賀祖發揮聯合戰力以提升聯合作戰的效能確保國家安全來制定這個條例所以我們台灣民眾黨一直以來支持我們的國防制度都沒有改變這裡再一次的做一個說明謝謝謝謝國民黨團 牛許廷輝你上次有意見因為休會休息所以沒有發言今天請繼續發言"},{"start":2350.368,"end":2370.896,"text":"謝謝主席 這上一次就反正是名稱的問題嘛但是我果然嘛 上次不幸命中嘛上次講了希望淡化政治色彩大家針對法條的本質跟內容來做詳細闡述就好那當然就被場外委員無情攻擊但我想該講的話還是要講然後我想了一個方法 大家參考一下因為現在三個版本文字各有落差"},{"start":2371.536,"end":2390.623,"text":"後來我回去找了一下過去幾次我們國防的特別條例包含什麼戰機等等強化陸海宮特別條例它的寫法是這樣的是為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要後面建制可保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力等等等等等等所以我覺得用為因應敵情威脅及迫切國防需要"},{"start":2391.664,"end":2401.222,"text":"這個跟過去行政院各個提出來的版本文字是一模一樣的沒有政治色彩然後我覺得是比較有機會拋出來看看有沒有機會三黨達成共識的以上供大家參考 謝謝"},{"start":2406.431,"end":2428.311,"text":"官部的部分跟上次協調的時候的那個說明是一樣的就是說就第一條的這個部分重點是在於國民黨的版本是只限於透過對美國政府及其授權體系軍事裝備與香港服務採購那就這個部分我想我們整個"},{"start":2429.727,"end":2447.041,"text":"整體的這個不對證這個還有強化防衛韌性的這個採購特別條例的應該不只限於美國政府的一個軍事裝備及相關服務案的採購所以像這一個部分再請各位朝野委員能夠斟酌就這個部分"},{"start":2449.269,"end":2477.065,"text":"好 謝謝顧部長的說明那個民進黨有沒有要補充說明第一條立法目的莊惠雄委員請謝謝院長還有在場所有的協商代表你看嘛我們上次那個這個整個軍國條例我們名稱的最後我們就採取台灣民眾黨家嘛其實你如果看台灣民眾黨家是大家都給你尊重啦那你跟行政院版其實哪有什麼不一樣"},{"start":2478.126,"end":2496.543,"text":"那以第一條來看的話,我看大家也不用這樣糾結啦你去把它看,其實前面都幾乎講得差不多嘛你說因應中共軍事威脅,持續擴增台灣民眾黨你也跟行政院的提案一樣國民黨你就認為說,這叫做因應國際情勢"},{"start":2501.528,"end":2520.34,"text":"的一個變化這個範圍好像比較寬了好像說台灣的威脅除了中共以外好像還有其他的國家啊對台灣因為有軍事上的一個脅迫這個是深謀遠慮啦看得非常遠這也是一件好事啊但是我們其實是在聚焦啦我很不客氣的講啊"},{"start":2522.915,"end":2542.537,"text":"第一條 乾脆就寫四個字 我都可以這樣講保護台灣 都一樣 四個字其實幾乎都可以含瓜所以我的意思是跟政黨之間 我們是不是也尊重國防部你認為國防部在第一條 行政院的院版哪一個地方沒有把你的含色進來"},{"start":2544.256,"end":2570.654,"text":"來改這個 我們糾結在這裡才比較有意義嘛不然否則 院長你看這個第一條其實是各個政黨裡面文字敘述不一樣而已 含義 精神那幾乎都是相同啦我看今天Q&A很好啦 很好喔大家就來這裡有心想要解決問題我們第一條是可以不用糾結 我們就都差不多嘛 精神意義一樣除非你認為國安部提出這個案子是文藝不通"},{"start":2571.834,"end":2588.744,"text":"這個好像是國安部都沒有唸書這個字寫的比各黨團都不好那我們就不踩他們不然如果是大家覺得可以的精神差不多的話是不是可以來就按照行政院的版本得屌這個不是深水區啦這個只是一個精神而已啦"},{"start":2593.058,"end":2595.961,"text":"謝謝主席大家午安就第一條的部分我們當然如果說就院版要剛剛其實劉委員也提到在我們過去其實有兩次在特別預算裡面是針對國防預算的部分"},{"start":2608.837,"end":2612.458,"text":"那如果說因應敵情威脅我想這個可能大家都可以接受因為我過去也是這樣寫那另外在國民黨黨團的提案裡面有特別提到因為我們現在很希望在有限的預算底下我們怎麼樣去確保我們武器的獲得或者我們相關設備武器裝備的獲得其實是比較有保障的因為像最近也發生可能我們一開始覺得是跟美國合作可是後來"},{"start":2638.987,"end":2661.125,"text":"卻是拉脫維亞這樣的國家他們提供的一個合作我想這個如果在中間有這樣子的變化對我們的獲得其實是不太有保障所以再加上我相信所有的委員都非常的信任美國以及美國政府它授權體系的軍事裝備以及相關的服務採購這個應該沒有問題所以我們認為這個部分應該要把它加進來謝謝"},{"start":2668.584,"end":2675.97,"text":"說馬文君委員還是回到劉委員許廷所提的為因應敵情威脅如果回到劉許廷委員這樣一個建議的話台灣民眾黨團跟民進黨團有意見嗎好請劉委員請"},{"start":2684.542,"end":2705.728,"text":"主席我補充說明一下這個我自己的提出來的idea是前面改成剛剛那一句話大家都知道了嘛後面我是用民眾黨的版本啦但如果國民黨黨團這邊對於要不要把美國加進去我們就再商量一下那一樣我覺得大家我只是丟一個想法嘛這個拋磚引玉大家集思廣益目標還是達成共識啦我希望這一條可以趕快把它進行完畢 以上好 徐小新委員請發言"},{"start":2710.117,"end":2736.05,"text":"呃 我的建議就是說其實第一條齁 那我們因為應該是這樣說因為我們在上一次的協商的時候我們針對這個名稱的部分是採取了台灣民眾黨團的提案嘛所以國民黨黨團的提案是因為我們在名稱的時候就有寫到對美軍事採購所以在第一條的部分那必須得寫到對美不然的話我跟我的名稱上面我在第一條上我就不太合"},{"start":2736.77,"end":2761.552,"text":"但是因為現在我們的名稱是採用台灣民眾黨黨團的提案所以我的建議跟劉許廷委員比較相似就是說應該除了我覺得因應中共軍事威脅它當然是其中一個但我們今天要厚植國防實力的理由有很多包含我們整體第一島鏈上面可能的軍事威脅其實都是我們為什麼要提升國防整體性能的一環"},{"start":2762.433,"end":2774.683,"text":"所以中共軍事威脅是一種但是整體國際情勢它才是真正能夠包含整個為什麼我們要強化防衛任性跟不對稱戰力的整個主軸所以我的建議跟劉詠琳委員是一樣就是說我們是因應這個敵情等等的就按照過去的特別預算的這個寫法"},{"start":2780.788,"end":2808.405,"text":"那後續的話我覺得我們也可以在這個部分不要花太多的時間那就同意這個台灣民眾黨團的版本那這樣的話我覺得名稱跟第一條也能夠比較對上那換句話說就是台灣民眾黨黨團的第一條因應中共軍事威脅這六個字拿掉以後改為因應敵情威脅極迫切國防需要其他都不變"},{"start":2810.7,"end":2827.568,"text":"那這樣的話,台灣民眾黨團、民進黨團有沒有意見?如果沒有意見,我們就...如果要...本來我是蠻支持那個小新委員跟牛委員的意見啦只是我跟他們只有小小的差異,就是應該用行政院版"},{"start":2829.434,"end":2841.662,"text":"行政院版改那個紐巡庭委員的意見如果一定要用民眾黨的版本改我希望民眾黨的版本一定要加進後職國防產業這一個段落"},{"start":2846.789,"end":2869.162,"text":"那你就把國民黨的尾巴接上去了行政院的頭國民黨的尾巴行政院版還有一個跟民眾黨不一樣的地方就是後面它有後職國防產業那我們會希望後職國防產業對台灣是好事就產業面是好事就社會跟國防的韌性也是好事那這個徐議員請"},{"start":2874.44,"end":2889.474,"text":"這個蔡總長我跟您說明一下就是說因為呢我當然是支持後職國防產業但是因為在這一條上面處理這個事情的話那就會牽涉到後面的條文所以如果我們在後面的條文那大家有意見不一樣的地方而我第一條這裡已經通過會很麻煩"},{"start":2891.876,"end":2907.509,"text":"對所以如果這樣的話就變第一條也得保留那如果我們覺得第一條能夠我們不再生水區我們就盡快讓他通過是不是我們就按照這樣處理我再解釋一下那個就是說我們這樣列是比較比較寬的協法那後面如果大家後面的協商"},{"start":2908.47,"end":2925.739,"text":"可以有涉及到後職國防產業的部分那前面的條文已經有了那後面在後面如果處理沒有如果沒有的話假設表決沒有那沒有就沒有嘛但至少不能有了就又前面沒有這個這樣大家懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":2926.51,"end":2926.71,"text":"第一 國際敵情"},{"start":2947.44,"end":2963.628,"text":"敵情威脅以及迫切 其他不便往下推前面這個部分我沒有意見啦就後面因為這個也會牽涉到我們後面可能要討論的因為我們這一次好像特別條例在國中兩黨大概的"},{"start":2964.848,"end":2981.815,"text":"大家討論的結果是比較傾向說是對美採購的部分所以就這個部分如果說我們把美國政府跟他授權的體系把它加進來我想其實也可以確保我們在獲得的時候是比較有保障的所以我們才會主張其實應該要把這個加進來那現在學委員請"},{"start":2987.603,"end":3016.419,"text":"我想請教一下這個蔡永昭就是如果說您覺得這個後職國防產業這幾個字是特別關鍵的那假設說在民眾黨的版本裡面加在這個發揮聯合戰力鬥號後職國防產業鬥號以提升聯合作戰效能後面一樣這樣是可接受的嗎我的想法大概跟你很接近我覺得各位提的都非常好把它加進來都非常好可是呢刻意去把它去掉了就不好"},{"start":3017.304,"end":3037.892,"text":"你像譬如說你說我聽完你們說為了因應國際局勢嘛這是好事嘛但刻意去把它刪掉說因應中共軍事的威脅持續擴張我覺得沒必要啦因為我們今天為什麼要有這個軍購條例的原因就是真的就是要因應中國持續的擴張對台灣的威脅嘛各政黨把這個放進去喔"},{"start":3043.194,"end":3048.316,"text":"不會兇啦 不會兇到你啦這將軍你也很清楚嘛 你當一輩子的軍人你怎麼會不可能不知道說我們真正最大的威脅是來自於中共持續武力的一個擴張呢但是各位認為說可能不是 可能還有別的你要因應國際的一個情勢 我也贊成 把它放進來可是要放進來 如果你可以去把它說因應中共軍事威脅 持續擴張去把它刪掉的話"},{"start":3067.782,"end":3073.105,"text":"又好像我們在閃躲什麼又好奇怪我們就開宗明義來講的話這一題喔立法院本來就是要跟社會對話那社會上我們台灣民眾感受到最大的軍事威脅當然就是中共的一個軍事的一個威脅嘛那你要把還有因應國際局勢進來很好啊我們現在就是把它加進來啦啊不要用刪去的啊你用徐曉新委你提那個我很贊成啊要後面那個要加進些什麼很好啊啊可是刻意去"},{"start":3096.718,"end":3119.652,"text":"排除把說原來的整個軍國條例就是要因應整個中共軍事武力持續的擴張對台灣造成的一個威脅我們把這個去劃掉以後大家拿起來對會覺得說我們刻意要排除些什麼這樣對大家可能也不好啦好不好好 謝謝那個徐小英委員您剛剛所說的那個把它變成文字化一下給我等一下念一遍徵詢大家的同意好嗎好的好的在過程中 女委員可以繼續發言請發言謝謝主席"},{"start":3125.655,"end":3141.422,"text":"這個蔡英文時期立法院徵訂新式戰機採購特別條例第一條立法理由寫為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要後來提出的海空戰力提升計畫採購特別條例第一條立法理由也是寫為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要那時候你們怎麼不寫中共"},{"start":3142.242,"end":3166.652,"text":"啊現在突然要寫現在是幹嘛所以我才講嘛你用一個相對中性的詞重點是這些內容嘛所以我講今天你要做對照你不應該拿這些東西做對照你應該跟過去行政院提出來的版本來做對照還是說我們現在就是有心要炒作這件事要升高對立的情勢這樣從外交的角度來看不見得是好事我很持平很客觀的在這裡做這個提醒那如果連第一條我們都沒有辦法達成共識那就只好保留了謝謝"},{"start":3168.12,"end":3172.963,"text":"第一條大家今天氣氛也都很好然後呢其實現在也是綜合了就是剛蔡總召所堅持的幾個後職國防實力的部分也綜合了民眾黨團的這個"},{"start":3190.113,"end":3218.315,"text":"大概的脈絡然後呢國民黨在這邊呢其實也都配合了然後再加上前面的所謂的因應敵情這個是過去特別條這個特別預算的都是這樣子的寫法我覺得也沒有不妥那如果在這個事情上面大家能夠就還沒有到深水區就讓他通過我覺得是比較好的否則的話那我覺得國民黨在這邊也都配合各個政黨非常多了那如果都沒有辦法的話那就只能把它保留那我覺得第一條就這樣保留有點可惜以上建議"},{"start":3218.775,"end":3247.022,"text":"好 林主委謝謝 林主委請發言我認為因為反正現在文字已經出來了那是不是把文字讓大家看一下之後最重要的還是看一下國防部會 會 會因為我覺得基本上它影響到的是後面我們真的就是幾個項目跟欄目當中我們到底是不是要把它放進特別條例裡面所以我的建議只是趕快把它文字化然後國防部也要發表一下那個等一下文字出來以後我們會請國防部表達意見大家請放心來 范議員請發言"},{"start":3249.341,"end":3249.362,"text":"好"},{"start":3250.086,"end":3279.173,"text":"就是到底要不要直接點出中共還是寫敵情就好那這部分我也是尊重國防部的意見那我只是看起來說行政院版有名指中共民眾黨版也有名指中共那只有國民黨一版沒有寫中共那如果就尊重多數意見的話其實因為這幾年的情勢又跟蔡英文總統的情勢不太一樣那個中共的軍事威脅是加大的那如果本來就有"},{"start":3279.773,"end":3286.357,"text":"然後特別刪掉的確有莊瑞雄幹事長講的覺得有點敏感不過我也樂見剛剛徐曉欣委員覺得可以把後職國防產業放在民眾黨版的發揮聯合戰力的後面我覺得這樣蠻好的就是能夠寬一點那聽起來就是大家並不支持要把美國政府採購放進去因為這樣又太限縮了那我想以上意見那我尊重那個國防部"},{"start":3308.308,"end":3323.668,"text":"好 謝謝范議員 等一下馬上就把文字稿差不多出來了請大家看一下 我們再請公安部表達一下意見剛開始第一條會有一點 討論大家意見比較多一點慢慢往前推進會比較順一點我們每次審法案的經驗都是這樣子 大家請稍安勿躁"},{"start":3350.578,"end":3373.515,"text":"好 各位黨團幹部請聽一下因為在印 我先用口頭我用口頭來唸一遍請大家聽一下 然後表達意見我們第一條因應敵情威脅及迫切國防需要為建制可保衛國家安全之極強化不對稱戰力之武器及裝備運用重層嚇阻發揮聯合戰力後執國防產業"},{"start":3377.918,"end":3383.808,"text":"以提升聯合作戰效能確保國家安全特制定本條例"},{"start":3392.961,"end":3398.423,"text":"我剛剛沒聽清楚厚植國防實力還是厚植國防產業厚植國防產業小心你這邊剛剛提的是國防實力嗎"},{"start":3412.069,"end":3432.974,"text":"我提一下 這個東西是剛才 我回說一下 這個東西是蔡奇昌總召建議的說想要把行政院裡面的後職國防產業加進來那但我們這邊的要求就是說 那我前面的要按照過去的寫法是為因敵情威脅就是大家互相做一個 就是低調嘛 大家互相做一個比較 大家互相有理的這個協調"},{"start":3435.795,"end":3448.265,"text":"但是當然就是說如果對於我覺得是這樣子的對於前面這個如果大家還有這麼多意見那後面也沒有必要就是後面也沒有必要按照蔡啟昌總召的想法去處理了所以這個是跟這個慶紅總召講一下這個剛剛的脈絡謝謝"},{"start":3451.144,"end":3453.665,"text":"第一條 為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要 為建制可保護"},{"start":3470.309,"end":3497.218,"text":"國家安全及強化不對稱戰略之武器裝備運用重層嚇阻發揮聯合戰略後職國防產業以提升聯合作戰效能確保國家安全特制定本條例知道第二個位我們先把它撤掉只有一個位一開始就位因應國家剩下就是建制可對第二個位我們就把它拿掉那這樣的話各黨能幹嗎請國防部表達意見可以嗎請顧部長請"},{"start":3501.528,"end":3528.038,"text":"我如果剛剛聽得沒有錯的話文字上是我應該是說未因應敵情威脅及迫切國防需要然後後面那個未沒有了就建制可保衛國家安全及強化不對陣戰力之武器及裝備運用重層嚇阻發揮聯合戰力後質國防產業以提升聯合作戰效能確保國家安全特質基本條例是這樣嗎是的"},{"start":3529.98,"end":3547.83,"text":"那就我這邊來看的話呢它這個運用重整嚇阻下面的那個發揮聯合戰力跟下面再往下的那個以提升聯合專效能事實上是有點感覺上是有點重複的感覺吧"},{"start":3549.261,"end":3567.211,"text":"大家不會覺得嗎就是說一個是發揮聯合戰力換句話說你把以提升聯合作戰效能給拿掉了就是發揮聯合後職國防產業確保國際安全如果是不是能夠運用重層嚇阻發揮聯合戰力後職國防產業"},{"start":3575.56,"end":3600.406,"text":"然後提升那個聯合那一段就拿掉確保國際安全提升聯合作戰效能也是我們原來就有的啦我只是講說前面的花威聯合戰力跟我們原來行政院版的它是運用這個從城攔截網打到台灣引進高科技及人工智慧加速擊殺聯合作戰它有三個一個部分那這個能不能有一個"},{"start":3608.69,"end":3621.36,"text":"我建議一下為因應敵情威脅及破解國防需要建制可防衛國家安全及強化不正戰略武器及裝備運用從人嚇阻強化防衛體系後質國防產業以提升聯合專案效能"},{"start":3629.72,"end":3632.804,"text":"我覺得國民黨的版本裡面本來就有後子國防實力"},{"start":3645.459,"end":3668.173,"text":"整個後子國防實力它的包括的一個面向範圍而且是真正的讓我們提升我們台灣的國防這樣的力量那你單純的把它包括在一個產業齁那跟我們的整個立法的一個精神所以我在這邊台灣民眾黨講團還是建議"},{"start":3671.089,"end":3695.434,"text":"我們同意來增加但是從厚紙國防產業我們把它修正為厚紙國防實力實力包含性比較大比較廣那請問一下就是說如果說這個配合上剛才這個顧部長講的那一些然後再把這個產業改成實力的話會是怎麼樣的條文"},{"start":3698.836,"end":3721.192,"text":"我們現在修正,大致上我來念一遍應該是因應敵情威脅,第二個我也拿掉,建制可保衛國家安全等等再來運用重層嚇阻,強化防衛韌性,厚植國防實力,以提升聯合作戰效能,確保國家安全特制定本條例我想民進黨、台灣民眾黨團、國民黨團還有國防部應該都沒有意見吧因為這個把國防部"},{"start":3729.855,"end":3733.118,"text":"還是希望厚植觀光產業這個意志能夠放進來"},{"start":3736.383,"end":3756.991,"text":"不好意思部長我詢問一下您剛剛就是在前一輪的時候有講一段是什麼就是你前一輪的時候有講一段那個是什麼呀剛剛沒有記到不好意思剛剛院長已經有把它納進去了就是運用重層嚇阻強化防任體系強化防衛任性嘛是吧強化防衛任性後子國防產業"},{"start":3764.363,"end":3772.567,"text":"那如果說是強化那如果綜合就是民眾黨這邊然後跟這個部長這邊就變成強化防衛任性厚植國防實力呢就是大家對於厚植國防產業這一件事情因為我在我們國安法裡面本來我們就是要強調國防自主強化厚植我們國防產業把我們國安法的意旨把它納進來我不覺得這個在第一條裡面顯示這樣有什麼不好啊"},{"start":3792.196,"end":3818.382,"text":"沒有沒有我們沒有覺得不好只是說因為現在各個黨大家有不同的內容嘛那我們只是在說是不是說大家參照不同的這個意見可以把它整合在一起變成一個大家有一個共識所以大家其實多多少少你看本來國民黨裡面有一些的現在我們也沒去堅持嘛那本來民進黨有一些的那可能行政院版本的那也做一些調整嘛所以我的意思只是說如果像剛剛部長有特別講說他希望可以放入強化防衛任性那也OK啊"},{"start":3820.543,"end":3836.516,"text":"那這個部分的話那後面這個陳青龍總召民眾黨這邊認為國防產業變成實力那是不是這樣子大家可以尋求一個就是大家的一個共識我的問題是這個沒有反對說要不能放產業兩個字謝謝我先來唸了來蔡總召請蔡總召謝謝"},{"start":3842.111,"end":3857.217,"text":"剛剛徐委員所講的我回應他是說我非常跟他的意見幾乎是一致的那為什麼我這樣講呢是因為我們都很清楚知道國防產業基本上我們台灣除了半導體產業AI產業"},{"start":3859.238,"end":3881.735,"text":"如果未來因應著讓我們國家更安全台灣更有軍事上的實力那國防產業的發展不僅對國家的安全台海的和平有幫助更重要的是我們又可以多一個在經濟上可以讓我們的中小企業因為投入了國防產業的生產其實對我們的經濟發展產業的發展其實幫忙很大"},{"start":3885.658,"end":3904.89,"text":"那我也知道因為可能或許民眾黨在後面的這個談到金額的時候或許他們對於這個強化國防任性也就是我們國防自主國防自治的部分或許有不一樣的想法所以我剛剛跟小新聞解釋的時候我就先講到我們先把範圍擴大"},{"start":3906.371,"end":3926.54,"text":"因為最後要怎麼通過哪一些或許我們最後也不能達成共識那個金額的部分也不能達成共識那或許後來這個民眾黨也會被社會或者被民進黨說服你們也覺得適度的國防自主能夠讓我們的國防產業得以在台灣生根發展"},{"start":3927,"end":3952.522,"text":"或許你們也會最後會覺得這個很重要所以我的意思是說在前面的裡面其實它不是它不是這個這一步法這一步這個特別條例的核心嘛所以剛剛才會跟那個徐曉鑫委員達成一個共識他也支持說產業先放因為最後那個金額要不要做還是還是大家要來討論嘛所以呢把產業放進去我認為對整個的"},{"start":3955.064,"end":3980.369,"text":"思維上面我覺得會更完整對我們的國防自主跟產業的發展其實都是多面向的幫忙這個也是展現我們的態度所以我的想法基本上是這樣子各位黨團幹部讓我現在已經發到各位手上了容許我再念一遍如果大家還有不同意見再發言好嗎麻煩請國安部顧部長手上也有一份給國安部顧部長有一份"},{"start":3982.269,"end":4010.285,"text":"第一條 為因應敵情威脅及迫切之國防需要建制可保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力之武器及裝備運用重層嚇阻強化防衛韌性後值國防實力以提升聯合作戰效能確保國家安全特制令本條例各位黨團幹部如果都同意這樣一個修正的話國防部副部長"},{"start":4012.286,"end":4031.105,"text":"我是建議就是參照大家參照就後職國王實力能不能前面加個後職國王自主實力那不要外購嗎那個我想我們就針對這個,好請專委請,請準備"},{"start":4034.554,"end":4047.705,"text":"院長還有各位協商代表,我看大家剛剛哄堂一笑行政院光不提出這樣的一個版本,它是花了那麼久的時間去盤點"},{"start":4050.558,"end":4072.794,"text":"那其實到最後你說這個條文會差距多大 也沒有啦 大家談得很有共識了嘛但是呢也不要忘記啦 國安部提出來應應整個國家的一個需求條文裡面讓國人去感受到各個政黨來支持我們共同的國家 而且是國防的一個自主啊"},{"start":4073.314,"end":4100.932,"text":"我覺得這一點是值得應該是敬佩的啦我反而覺得核心就是要國防來做一個自主我們就是沒資料 不然要跟別人買我們看有資料 搞不好我們自己的國防產業可以有辦法來自主以外然後又變成 形成一個產業那又是一股很大的一個經濟上的一個力量所以我認為 顧部長這樣說把國防自主 加那個自主兩個字齁應該是我 我認為應該是各黨大家一起來支持是好事好"},{"start":4103.496,"end":4103.658,"text":"好 請長話短說 謝謝"},{"start":4105.811,"end":4133.53,"text":"是 是 我剛剛本來想的是後職國防實力前面加產業級這三個字喔因為剛剛幾位都說並不反對產業那有國防產業級實力其實就兩者都有喔那當然 顧部長的那個自主我覺得可能更好喔因為不管怎麼做我們國防要有自主的實力降低依賴我想這個跟防衛韌性喔是這一次很重要的主題所以你同意顧部長的嗎你同意顧部長那個 對好的好 謝謝喔林培強委員請發言"},{"start":4135.998,"end":4151.708,"text":"我會認為說直接這樣子目前後職國防實力比較難刮所有的這些大家的需求而且特地去講說國防產業國防自主那後職國防實力這才是我們這個條例應該做的而且這是特別條例啊"},{"start":4152.589,"end":4165.79,"text":"特別條例有些東西如果該常態預算就該常態預算特別條例應該是針對特別的需求才做出預算編列所以我對於這個國防實力我表示我覺得這樣就夠了製組不用加 你覺得不用加好 馬文君委員請"},{"start":4168.099,"end":4186.864,"text":"這個部分我們也是認為因為包括這一次特別條例裡面很多的經費都是用買的所以其實如果把自主加進來反而是自相矛盾自打嘴巴我們後置國防實力其實已經涵蓋比較多它如果我們的國防實力可以增加它的面向是所有的產業它不是單一的產業國防其實它牽涉到非常多的產業包括半導體都是"},{"start":4193.286,"end":4208.105,"text":"所以其實產業加不加進來我覺得這個可能只是為後面要鋪陳而已後職國防實力才是條例制定的根本所以我們希望不要再多加一些可能比較會延伸問題的一些次序台灣民眾黨團有意見嗎"},{"start":4210.496,"end":4229.823,"text":"現在國民黨團希望就直接照剛剛所念的後職國防司令那國防部希望加自主自主司令民進黨團同意但是現在國民黨團有不一樣版本但是顧問長請問一下如果照我第一次剛才所念的後職國防司令以國防部立場來講接受應該沒有問題吧"},{"start":4232.301,"end":4235.104,"text":"接受就這樣嘛因為它還是一個很大的範圍嘛這個不是重點嘛"},{"start":4244.639,"end":4268.613,"text":"我想重點可能會拉到後面的那個深水區裡面看看大家到底是怎麼樣好 我們到深水區再說好不好我們現在連潛水區都游不出去咧先把深水區解決 潛水區自然會解決好 我們就先定這樣 照我剛剛所念的一遍也在各位手上 第一條條文我們就把它通過好嗎好 謝謝我們進入第三條"},{"start":4271.448,"end":4289.924,"text":"我們現在提了第三條民眾黨團提案第三條國民黨團提案第四條有關法律名稱之定義的條文請大家翻到條文對照表第九頁因為本條例法律名稱我們已經通過民眾黨團的版本本條我們是不是就照台灣民眾黨團的提案通過"},{"start":4292.519,"end":4309.624,"text":"請 牛許庭委員請發言主要是提醒一下因為調次啦因為在委員會審查的時候因為國民黨黨版有第三條啦然後其他是沒有的但第三條在委員會的時候是照案通過的所以現在如果通過的話我們就是調次一併處理就是第四條然後部隊辦理經行政院核定採購第五條鎖定項目之裝備啦這樣順下來會比較順一點以上"},{"start":4317.625,"end":4324.211,"text":"我們最後會順這個調適,沒有問題那顧部長要不要補充說明一下如果沒有意見我們就照台灣民眾黨團所通過第三條條文"},{"start":4353.786,"end":4376.781,"text":"第三條應該是國民黨版本就是在委員會的時候我們就有現在就是說要注意的當然就是說現在如果要變成國民黨原來的第三條通過的話這個第四條以外這裡面有一個辦理行政院核定採購的那一個"},{"start":4377.952,"end":4404.783,"text":"第幾條這個可能也要改了就變成要...內文也要改了就變成第五條了我們到最後會議一起再順過來再請再跟顧部長還有各黨團來交換意見那內容部分知道台灣民眾黨團通過大家有沒有意見沒有意見,好謝謝"},{"start":4411.087,"end":4423.218,"text":"我們現在各位黨團幹部我們進入第四條行政院提案的第四條民眾黨國民黨團提案的第五條有關採購項目的條文這一點要請各黨團來踴躍來發言一下那"},{"start":4448.306,"end":4473.032,"text":"行政院的項目比較多麻煩請國安部簡單說明一下我們各黨團跟我們聽一下然後請各黨團準備發言 謝謝行政院版本的第四條民眾黨版本的第四條以及國民黨版本的第五條那這個就涉及到有關這個在條例裡面要如何來寫這個採購的這個項目那麼行政院的"},{"start":4478.346,"end":4501.599,"text":"這個案裡面已經說明就是說在條例跟預算分隔的情況之下條例是在講這個我們要做的一個能力建構的項目所以我們會把它就是單純就會寫說精準火砲遠程精準打擊飛彈等等這七個大類這樣子那麼"},{"start":4502.873,"end":4526.144,"text":"其他的兩個版本都是已經特定去寫到某一個案的這個精確的數字或者是精確的這個案項那就這樣子的一個寫法我想是混淆了條例跟這個預算案的不同所以我們是認為還是要採這個要建構的這個"},{"start":4532.59,"end":4555.637,"text":"能力的項目到底是什麼那這樣子來寫會比較合乎條例的這個寫法那預算會按照這個所要建構的這一個能力項目然後再去提出相對應的預算這樣顧部長講得非常清楚那各位 哈林村委員請發言"},{"start":4557.459,"end":4564.002,"text":"謝謝主席其實事實上我們本週其實也開過了一次的機密會議那麼之前其實也開過了那麼在前兩天這個國防部也針對機密會議當中公開了這一個可以公開的這個版本的強化國防任性及不對稱戰力的執行報告如果在公開的版本我想其實現場的委員應該也"},{"start":4579.329,"end":4593.294,"text":"都可以拿得到他就有針對細部把國防部為什麼列出七大類的原因包括內容那麼其實在可公開的版本當中呢是已經把一些具有機敏性的把它遮蔽掉了那麼"},{"start":4594.534,"end":4602.06,"text":"我相信現場的委員如果需要其實是可以看得到內容的這也是為什麼其實需要召開機密會議給現場的所有的委員能夠了解那國防部其實也把為什麼要用這個方式來先訂定條例因為剛剛承接部長所說的就是"},{"start":4612.008,"end":4640.527,"text":"我們在做的現在是條例而不是預算回到預算的時候我相信這些可以公開的包括數量內容以及我們武器的部分都可以那所以我本席是非常支持就是國防部跟行政院所提出來的第四條的原因是因為其實在這份報告當中為什麼會這樣定然後會是哪七大類其實是非常清楚的所以我認為其實如果我們討論要有效率然後必須要有一個推展的話啦我覺得因為現在"},{"start":4642.489,"end":4660.703,"text":"是公開的 朝野協商那可是這個內容又有部分是機密那我會建議啦就是稍後如果在內黨的委員有什麼意見上面覺得哪些部分不需要的話是不是可以休息一下我已經把答案都講出來我就喊休息好不好好 總統委員請發言"},{"start":4662.444,"end":4690.164,"text":"國民黨團謝謝院長各位協商代表來看一下行政院版的第四條跟國民黨的第五條還有台灣民眾黨的第四條其實台灣民眾黨跟中國國民黨你們這種寫法這不是軍購這有點像網購他們在點菜一樣那你行政院的版本它就像譬如說它就講精準火炮還有遠程精準打擊的飛彈無人機載具反系統"},{"start":4691.945,"end":4714.924,"text":"採台灣民眾黨跟採中國國民黨會產生一個問題就是說你這個台灣民眾黨的版本跟中國國民黨的版本就是限制住了你的授權就只有這一些了會變成綁手綁腳了就是說你行政院這個版本我就告訴國人同胞我們要建軍我們要精準火爆遠程的打擊飛彈無人機載具防空反飛彈這些反專甲"},{"start":4716.966,"end":4734.155,"text":"等等還有甚至於人工智慧輔助跟指揮管制通信的部分可是在台灣民眾黨裡面它就是限縮比如說自走炮甚至於跟你講說你只能給我買自走炮60門你海馬仕的部分你只能給我買82套你不能給我買到83套買到83套沒錢中國國民黨的部分你看這個反裝甲無人機的一個飛彈重點就是說"},{"start":4746.409,"end":4769.681,"text":"國防部去跟美國那個地方大家在談我相信這整個整個條例的一個提出來是因應整個國防戰力的一個提升啊尤其是剛我們踩了台灣民眾黨的就為了整個國家安全那我相信國家安全倒不是只有這幾項甚至於把幾門炮都把它放都把它寫出來你寫了62門你寫了82套那如果國防部跟你講說我只要100套啊"},{"start":4773.283,"end":4783.17,"text":"你說你覺得可以62門火炮而已我就算一算 我精準的看過了我不只買62炮那個火炮啊我必須要建置到100套啊所以這個條例的寫法 台灣民眾黨的寫法我認為是不是可以大家再來參考一下國防部 行政院的版本裡面其實是涵蓋會比較廣啦那比較廣就是說授權的部分它變得更完整了"},{"start":4802.867,"end":4821.194,"text":"我們採行政院的版本採取更完整的以後讓他更有彈性以後不是他錢可以亂花喔你到最後還是要送出總預算來嘛你總預算來你送出來你認為說你現階段不需要這麼多的時候再來談嘛那個陳冠廷委員要發言稍微等一下我們先讓兩個黨團簡單二要表達意見之後再請陳冠廷委員發言馬文君委員請發言"},{"start":4829.024,"end":4831.745,"text":"就這個部分因為這個條例我們剛剛通過的是因應敵情威脅還有急迫的國防需要所謂的急迫的國防需要當然我們現在想要儘速通過的就是對美"},{"start":4844.729,"end":4852.573,"text":"軍購的這個部分所以其實他非常明確因為美國的發價書也清清楚楚把所有的品項還有包括說有數量跟金額他也訂出來不過我覺得數量跟金額是可以討論的因為從過去的經驗看來有時候我們覺得太貴可能還可以跟他們再做一些商討或者他的套數如果我們有增加或要減少的必要的話其實都可以討論可是他的"},{"start":4869.322,"end":4872.365,"text":"提供的項目是非常明確的所以我覺得應該要把它列出來這個不會像是網購因為我們看過去我們在採購那個F16V的時候其實他就清清楚楚我們要買66價的F16V所以他很清楚我們到底要買什麼你才不會我們到時候我們現在編的錢"},{"start":4890.939,"end":4894.84,"text":"那時候突然美國因為我們對他是沒有罰則的我們從歷次來看有些我們付了錢或者我們已經有需求的他沒有辦法即時提供沒有辦法在期限內期程裡面提供的時候我們完全沒有辦法所以我們希望就這個部分要比較明確如果你還是模糊的隨便他可以框很多那到時候我們要的他不給"},{"start":4915.546,"end":4933.22,"text":"他給我們是我們不要的或者對我們的戰力沒有很大的幫助的這對我們來說會是損害所以我們還是希望他在這個條例裡面因為我們這個條例很明確就是要通過這樣的預算所以他應該要清清楚楚的把它標示出來好 謝謝馬文靜委員發言台灣民眾黨團發言完畢之後請陳冠廷委員發言來 請台灣民眾黨團表達意見"},{"start":4940.336,"end":4960.317,"text":"這個台灣民眾黨這個版本其實就跟剛剛馬委員講的很類似其實因為現在還是要定一個上限所以我們加一加加一加就跟那天這個網部給我們的專報是一樣它還是有列了一些金額不過國防部這個金額有時候它也會稍微有點不太一樣也許等一下國防部也可以說明一下我們拿到好幾個版本這個有點小小差異"},{"start":4961.318,"end":4982.095,"text":"那另外就是說我想在條例裡面就是我們也許可以不用寫那個就是這個的數量跟金額我覺得我們這邊是應該說OK不過因為今天等一下可能要討論那個金額可能這個部分可能還是會討論到那至於在條例裡面我們是可以把它把那個金額啦那個數量給拿掉好 謝謝你好 陳冠廷委員請發言"},{"start":4982.916,"end":5011.776,"text":"好 謝謝那謝謝王委員你們釋放出來的善意就是把過去不可執行的部分先把它拿掉就是現在有往前走一步但是我還是要再強調也是回應馬委員就是我們的這個行政院的版本裡面其實包含這個無人載具跟其實反制的系統等等的其實這些東西如果我們把它掰過去就是概括進去的話概括進去的話那感覺上是就跟本次的那麼立法的這個要旨也不太一樣嘛"},{"start":5012.516,"end":5032.927,"text":"你要不對稱性那直接要我們的就是無人載具跟反制無人載具的一些措施那其實我們盡量的用比較概括性的方式才能夠確保說未來我們獲得的東西跟我們的數量是我們所希望的那如果只是像之前的這種版本的話那他只是把"},{"start":5033.507,"end":5052.622,"text":"就是如果說我們要升級的話那到時候又要針對這一個法令這一個條例的話會有這個微誤之處所以我們還是希望說以行政院的版本它的概括性是最大那剛才提到的會不會有我們所想要的但是送不到或者不想要的卻送到的這個問題其實條例過後預算的時候"},{"start":5055.325,"end":5075.485,"text":"這一檔完全是可以用你們的這個監督的力道來去執行但是這個條例的部分我們盡可能的要把它蓋過去把它擴大所以我們是希望這個國民黨可以來再思考一下盡量使用行政院的版本或者從行政院的版本如果你們覺得可以再調整的部分來去增加這樣子"},{"start":5076.67,"end":5093.34,"text":"好,那現在台灣民眾黨團同意不把這個數字列進去,那現在只剩下行政院版本跟國民黨團的版本那顧部長你要不要表達一下意見的話,我們就來做一個簡單的宣告好不好,你還沒有要補充的剛剛"},{"start":5100.123,"end":5129.276,"text":"就馬委員講的這個我還是再強調一遍就是說因為這個條例通過之後還是要送預算案進來這我已經一再講過了那所以不可能會是說這個條例通過以後就等於就通過了這個案子那這個案子要買多少的精準火炮譬如說我們已經公開講了當然我們跟美方這邊所談定了那美方也已經知會國會的就是M1A7的自走炮"},{"start":5129.929,"end":5144.225,"text":"那但是你要寫成精準火炮跟M109A7的自走炮在這一點上面其實差異是不大但是下面有一些還沒有能夠公開的部分"},{"start":5145.366,"end":5169.883,"text":"還有這個我們有一些沒有辦法去指明這個部分你就沒有辦法這樣子寫啊也就是說這個體力上的寫法你如果上面是寫某一個什麼東西那下面又沒有辦法全部寫那你其實最後還是要按照我們的這個我是要建議還是按照我們的方式寫那具體的項目"},{"start":5170.836,"end":5183.569,"text":"具體的案項 具體的金額 具體的數量等等再講一遍 還是要送到大院來嘛大院不過 那這個也是不過啊那要過了才有啊"},{"start":5186.248,"end":5190.871,"text":"其實我們可能兩邊最大的差異點就是我們其實主要這個條例要通過的是對美軍購的部分所以其實其他的部分我們不認為說因為他這些相次其實是非常模糊的"},{"start":5212.964,"end":5218.108,"text":"那比如說金準火炮金準火炮川普總統第一屆的時候其實他曾經要賣我們M109A6可是到後來他反悔了他不賣所以我們剩下的錢全部都改買海馬斯他叫他也不退可是我們就是把所有的錢都買海馬斯我們那時候是想要這個自走炮的那他還是會有變動的可能我們現在最大的不同點在於我們"},{"start":5239.843,"end":5251.23,"text":"國中兩黨可能要通過的是針對軍購的部分可是現在不管國防部也好行政院的版本也好他提到的是還有其他的那其他的我們還是希望因為我們強力支持無人載具的發展不管是無人機"},{"start":5256.733,"end":5263.017,"text":"無人機無人艇或者其他無人載具我們認為其實國內都應該要具備這樣的能量可是他不需要放在特別條例裡面他如果按部就班跟經濟部一起合作一起推動我相信我們這個產業其實是可以把它做得很好這個條例我們很清楚的想要通過的就是對美軍購的部分所以其實把它明確的列出來"},{"start":5281.249,"end":5300.917,"text":"就美方已經同意的或者未來可能會同意的我們怎麼樣去把那個重心放在那裡這個才是我們要通過這個條例的一個主要的核心目的所以其實不會有問題那寫的這個部分有些太模糊我們認為放在公務預算會比較恰當好 我們休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":6372.617,"end":6381.527,"text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部,謝謝國防部割裂席單位請坐,我們繼續開始沈破陽委員你要發言,好請"},{"start":6384.814,"end":6409.027,"text":"因為國民黨版的第五條 院版的第四條剛剛有一個新的版本我先講一下 因為我覺得這一條大家的意見要聚焦因為我們在委員會已經討論蠻久了所以我覺得意見聚焦的點大概就只有那幾個而已第一個就是 我們就用最新的第五條的寫法第一個寫"},{"start":6410.988,"end":6427.554,"text":"這個M109A7的這個自走砲然後寫海馬仕等等之類的這就是剛剛在爭執的就是到底要不要把名稱都寫上去這是第一個爭執點那我呢因為今天副總召也在所以呢我覺得因為委員會協商的時候副總召不在所以我想說再溝通一次"},{"start":6428.254,"end":6450.089,"text":"就是傅董昭因為在花蓮一定對這個《馬太安條例》特別的熟悉那《馬太安條例》也是一樣 它框一筆金錢然後要去救災 救災需要什麼也是有項目的那這個也是這個三黨都共同通過的這個條例裡面就寫得很清楚我框了這個幾億元 我是要買比如說農業的機具"},{"start":6452.43,"end":6465.578,"text":"農業機具這四個字就是大方向這跟院版講精準火砲是一模一樣的意思院版第一個寫精準火砲就好像馬太安條例寫農業機具但是馬太安條例裡面不會寫農業機具冒號九寶田M109不會把這個寫上去因為你就是要買農業機具協助光復鄉你農業機具到底是要買哪一個後面的預算案會寫"},{"start":6479.585,"end":6494.079,"text":"所以第一個我覺得聚焦就是是不是就是回歸到本來的願版第一個寫精準火砲第二個寫遠程精準打擊飛彈這樣才對因為從以前到現在中華民國的歷史的特別條例都是這樣寫"},{"start":6495.74,"end":6515.426,"text":"再來第二個就是我們今天要加強我們的國防沒有規定一定要跟美國購買跟哪一個國家購買都可以我們的目的是要增強我們的國家安全是為了不對稱戰力這個是大家前面全部都同意的所以我覺得這個問題我上次問過這一次我覺得"},{"start":6516.306,"end":6543.392,"text":"我就一直希望國民黨看誰能夠回答這個問題就是除了品項寫得不一樣之外現在最主要的是國民黨少了防空系統少了無人載具那我就問如果今天目的是為了不對稱作戰目的今天是為了要加強我們的國防請問為什麼人工智慧輔助的這個防空跟無人載具不需要我覺得回答這個問題就好因為這顯然就是一直把這兩個東西拿掉嘛"},{"start":6543.772,"end":6560.24,"text":"就是為什麼人工智慧輔助的防空這件事情國民黨認為不重要又或者為什麼明明現在那麼多戰爭發生無人載具看起來越來越重要為什麼國民黨覺得不重要我覺得這件事情一旦回答清楚了"},{"start":6560.6,"end":6583.688,"text":"那我們才有辦法繼續往下好 謝謝謝謝沈伯陽委員發言各位黨團幹部還有國安部列席的所有的官員那我想顯然這一條我們沒有辦法達成大家的共識那現在國民黨團跟台灣民眾黨團也融合了一個版本剛才也請其他黨團各位來看了一下我想我們回過頭來我們再來討論我們現在先往下一條"},{"start":6585.985,"end":6606.552,"text":"我們往行政院版本的提案第五條我們等一下這個剛剛擱著這個條文的我們在最後還會再回來討論好不好好謝謝我們繼續協商行政院提案第五條民眾黨團提案第五條國民黨團提案的第六條有關經費上限的條文請大家翻到對照表28頁"},{"start":6609.441,"end":6626.817,"text":"有關經費上限行政院版本新台幣一兆兩千五百萬一兆一兆兩千五百億民眾黨團版本四千億國民黨團版本三千八百億各黨團代表要請發言首先請台灣民眾黨團請發言"},{"start":6636.042,"end":6660.299,"text":"行政版本第五條好 這個臺灣民眾黨當初在提這一條的時候是以當初已經公告的這個軍控的項目來進行編列然後再加了800多億的一個彈性的空間那目前臺灣民眾黨這個我們討論的結果也就是因為現在好像有可能會有一些額外的這個FMS的部分"},{"start":6660.939,"end":6675.831,"text":"那也許我們可以邏輯上我們可以在這次的條例裡面先看看再把考慮可以適當的把它加進去不過還是要以最後的能夠確定的狀況才能夠質疑這個所謂的預算以上國民黨團請表達意見好 馬總統謝謝主席"},{"start":6687.319,"end":6697.019,"text":"就這個部分我們一直剛剛也不斷的強調這個部分我們希望就是對美軍購或者在可以提升即使戰力的部分我想這個"},{"start":6698.875,"end":6702.557,"text":"執政黨的委員 省委員剛剛有提到他說我們認為這個無人機或反無人機或者無人載具的這個部分不重要是錯的我們認為非常重要本席是最早 聽我講完本席是最 你才胡說八道啦這個放在公務預算裡面時間暫停 時間暫停好不好 拜託中科院馬委員 對不起請繼續發言 省委員拜託"},{"start":6728.793,"end":6732.886,"text":"我們尊重發言委員好不好你等一下可以發言嘛好不好你先不要"},{"start":6734.659,"end":6739.502,"text":"先不要打岔好不好馬委員請繼續好 謝謝主席首先我要說明一個他們說現在公務預算只有剩下84億的上限是因為我們這兩三年尤其近三年是付款的高峰期包括對美的軍購包括有很多我們自己國防預算裡面付款的高峰期是在這三年可是後面以後就不是84億這樣子的上限所以這個部分不能誤導這是第一點"},{"start":6762.876,"end":6769.363,"text":"第二點如果我們每年都可以編的常態公務預算既然認為這麼重要而且無人機無人艇無人載具這是迭代在發展的你應該在我們的公務預算裡面而且我們中科院已經研科研或者我們自己去自主研發或者去製造的至少已經20年了"},{"start":6786.76,"end":6806.066,"text":"這些相關的技術或者我們應該採買的我們不會沒有任何的一個方向所以他在公務預算如果覺得重要早就應該編了為什麼那時候沒有這樣做這個反而應該要問問自己所以如果說現在特別預算放不進來就說大家不重視這更錯"},{"start":6808.027,"end":6811.969,"text":"尤其他們現在的產業發展 產業發展其實經濟部才是最內行的我們國內的所有的產業 科學園區各方面的產業園區做得非常好其實是經濟部我們怎麼樣讓我們自己會的量能 比如說中科院或者我們其他國內"},{"start":6830.8,"end":6834.602,"text":"自己有的一些相關技術去結合經濟部整個整體產業的發展這才是我們國內應該要推進的無人機無人載具這樣子的一個進程而不是隨便想說放在這裡然後你到底要買什麼之前說買20萬架現在突然又變成30萬架那你到底是怎麼去估計的我們看不出來所以如果只是為了要一個數字那對我們的國防的"},{"start":6859.155,"end":6877.612,"text":"傷害其實反而會造成更大的影響所以我們才說就可以在立即通過的部分不要把那個未確定的因素把它放進來這樣會很清楚如果真的有必要你另外再用其他的特別條例不是只有一次而已啊我們過去在買F16V的時候其實是2019年吧"},{"start":6883.016,"end":6885.599,"text":"2020年我們馬上就通過另外一筆國防特別預算特別條例就是海空戰力提升我們製造飛彈還有造船隔年就馬上就編拉所以根本沒有這樣的問題你今天如果要及時讓我們可以在軍購上面更順利可以很快的讓這個條例還有這個預算可以進行應該要把它分開來"},{"start":6908.44,"end":6929.954,"text":"這個部分再一次強調 省委員說我們不重視或不在乎這是錯的馬委員現在你跟太多情緒被省委員干擾了重點是你現在這個預算金額你到現在還沒有表達你的最關鍵的意義還是我們等一下再來討論我們下一輪你發言再說 好不好好 民進黨團請發言"},{"start":6932.833,"end":6943.988,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位協商代表其實大家應該聚焦啦現在就是說你的總預算以這個軍國條例裡面你的上限現在院版的國防部這邊是801.25兆那國民黨跟民眾黨啊"},{"start":6948.934,"end":6963.287,"text":"其實我聽到現在你們就其實就已經進入到深水區這個是核心中的一個條文嘛就大膽的講嘛你們本地開始為三千五到三千八到你們的盧市長八千一"},{"start":6963.968,"end":6967.81,"text":"那我看黃國昌台灣民眾黨的黨主席你們又出來開一個記者會說你們那個藍白你們說得好啊你們的方向然後一致就8千億叫你們現在版本裡面也又4千叫你們說要多少也滴滴嘟嘟說不出來所以喔"},{"start":6981.721,"end":7004.197,"text":"我們這整個條例裡面喔我們是在審這個條例啊那你們本來是講說發架書來了喔啊來了我再來 大家再來 日本人再來創一個軍購條例我們一直在講說這樣子反不及及 失去了一個彈性那 既然你們昨天釋放出來的訊息是說你們的方向是八千那你現在到底是要多少 你的社會有什麼我們在這個地方喔我們為什麼是強調說支持院版的1.25兆"},{"start":7011.551,"end":7039.623,"text":"兩年多的時間我相信這個不是國防部閉門造局啦反而各個政黨裡面為什麼去講說當有一點你們把軍購把它當成是網購人家數字到底是怎麼來的可以這樣變來變去然後隔了今天你們今天講的又跟昨天又不一樣了行政院 國防部他認為很委屈他整個建軍的一個計畫裡面也不是我們自己去盤整而已一定是跟美國嘛"},{"start":7040.815,"end":7044.48,"text":"大家還在那邊悄悄地說說看我們要買多少對整個國家的安全才有夠其實我認為是應該明確地表達台灣民主黨你如果不說 國民黨你如果不說這樣不太會說下去"},{"start":7055.28,"end":7077.843,"text":"這樣才會說下去 我們這個整個條文就是第五條在講的就是一個上限啊要上限大家用喊價的 喊完又不...我們不曉得要相信誰講的啊國民黨已經提過太多版本了 從3500到3800然後到8100 到昨天台灣民眾黨的主席 你...你像王委員 你這樣不就等於你主席亂講"},{"start":7080.513,"end":7101.219,"text":"我記得看了我剛看了你去把它寫一個黃國昌八千億就是你剛才說的啊你說藍白方向不是共識但是是一致的方向這也都是你們自己講的啊那到現在呢你們的版本是什麼這樣沒辦法協商嘛我們不是在護航我們就要我也一直在追 追出說國防部今天行政院你提出這個八年的1.25兆你是怎麼來的我們就"},{"start":7105.64,"end":7111.706,"text":"他也來解釋啦 人家也跟你們說 你買什麼 專報給你們知道 變預算會比較好變結果你們不來 現在跟你們說 到底你們要多少你們又再說不出來 這樣要怎麼說事情好 謝謝 那個范委員跟陳冠廷委員尖短二要發言完畢 我們請國防部說明好嗎好 范委員請"},{"start":7127.746,"end":7146.596,"text":"因為現在也是到關鍵的那個錢嘛那我想對我們來講就是1.25兆不能打折因為從剛剛的項目到這的話那看起來至少很明確的藍白的這個共同的版本也是集中在軍購只是有一點進展你們拿掉了對美"},{"start":7147.096,"end":7173.167,"text":"那可是我們國防部一直都說還有商購及偽製那我想很多人可能聽不懂什麼是商購及偽製那其實就是我們剛剛所講的包含就是自主的國防產業無人機產業那還有一個就整體來講的話AI系統的建置也不在你們這裡面就是我們講的這整個多重的防空的系統的建置那剛剛"},{"start":7174.927,"end":7193.532,"text":"馬雲軍委員一直在說你們沒有反對無人機等等講經濟部我想既然你們沒有反對的話那告訴大家經濟部跟國防部的角色非常的不一樣那我們現在要講的是我上次在委員會中已經說了連經濟學人都告訴大家無人機在"},{"start":7194.372,"end":7222.182,"text":"他懂得重要現在都是Made in China中國做的所以非紅供應鏈非常重要台灣的產業很有競爭性可是受訪的產商都已經說了擔心藍白反對也就是說為什麼不能放在平常的預算因為特別預算才有經費完整預算規模跟可預測性你有長期大量的訂單國內廠商才願意投資建立產能我們才能打造非紅供應鏈"},{"start":7223.322,"end":7242.414,"text":"所以我想這個部分除非你們反對這個目標否則你的那個錢數就是做不出這個部分那只剩下軍購那其實我們所講的商購偉智三者不能缺一喔那這非常的重要那他沒辦法用年度的預算來處理謝謝好 謝謝范議員今天我們請"},{"start":7243.454,"end":7267.125,"text":"陳委員請發言 郵委員請準備好 謝謝院長那我們簡單來回覆首先第一點就是說在我們至少我自己的選區嘉義的民雄航太園區裡面對我們來講這一個我們能夠有自主的國防產業是非常非常極端重要的那剛才提到的這些我們各種你說軍購也好 偽製跟商購也好那從最基本的來講其實我們上一項上一個條目裡面就有含到台美合作的部分"},{"start":7267.785,"end":7284.301,"text":"台美合作的部分如果這樣子的話我們如果生產的是在國內的生產但是其中核心的科技是其他國家或者是美國的話那請問這個也不把它包含嗎那我們跟國民黨主要的不同在野黨主要的不同就是自主這個部分"},{"start":7284.921,"end":7303.029,"text":"那這一次不在野黨的這個要求是主要是軍購就是外購那我們要的還是自主的能力自主國防 你說自立自強啊自強不行 這不是也是以前這個很多這個國民黨的委員們中華民國自強不行要自立自強的自立自主的這個部分嗎"},{"start":7303.869,"end":7321.018,"text":"所以我們一直在強調說無人載具跟反無人載具的裡面它必須不能夠只靠外購我們這一次看到這個中東的戰爭已經非常的明顯了那一些中東國家比較富有的國家大量的跟美國採購防空系統武器無人載具的國家"},{"start":7321.798,"end":7345.859,"text":"在面臨到其他敵情的威脅的時候 伊朗也好沒有辦法迅速的從外面的拿到資源所以自立自主的國防產業是非常重要的對無人載具來說也是如此 特別是無人載具我們沒有辦法依靠 只依靠外援然後來去滿足我們無人載具的需求所以為什麼我們要有特別條例也是如此那當然 馬委員說要把它放到每年的年度預算"},{"start":7347.08,"end":7370.389,"text":"我還是要強調 因為我們的這個新型的軍事投資 那每年的預算是有限的那在這個國防部的報告裡面 不管是機密還是非機密的報告都很清楚的有寫出來大概最多就是多84億那只有84億元的話 那你怎麼樣去扶植國內自主的產業我想這個是我們比較擔心的部分 也希望說政業黨的委員能夠來去支持"},{"start":7371.429,"end":7387.314,"text":"針對中小企業因為我們要在民雄航太園區要做很多的商務的這些徵詢他們所最擔心的就是不敢開產線為什麼不敢開產線他不知道明年還有沒有這個軍事的需求而所有特別是無人載具它的主要的需求來源就是來自於國防啊"},{"start":7387.634,"end":7412.893,"text":"所以這個部分我還是希望說在野黨的委員能夠主要來去思考一下這個部分那特別是中部的產業其實跟無人載具也有直接的關係所以也希望陳總長能夠 想想看台中因為你們有很大的這個工業的基礎所以對台中人來講無人載具是極端重要的那必須要把這個遇上上限能盡量的往上來提高好不好 我們往這個共識去走好 謝謝 紐西林委員請發言 沈博洋委員請準備"},{"start":7414.173,"end":7435.222,"text":"謝謝主席這個面對一場協商大家總要預判一下協商的氛圍走向還有最後這個法案到底要用什麼樣的方式來處理如果有機會要達成共識互相保留一些善意我覺得總是有必要的這也就是為什麼在在野黨的各種版本裡面有各種不一樣的數字我希望大家是用一個保留空間"},{"start":7435.862,"end":7464.441,"text":"大家可以各自求取共識的大方向來看待這件事情但剛剛我們聽民進黨代表的幾個發言甚至就講到他們都非常堅持1.25兆的時候那很有可能的政治處理的空間就通通被壓縮掉了嘛那你在其他人那裡去講去考試說你這個數字很多到底是哪一套的版本那不也就失去意義了嗎我覺得大家要靜下心來想一想我們到底要怎麼解決現在這個僵局吧而如果還是大家只是留於立場的表述甚至是情緒性的發言那我想對於協商達成共識就不會有任何的幫助了以上發言 謝謝"},{"start":7465.362,"end":7486.456,"text":"好 謝謝 尤其是委員我們什麼要問請那我乾脆接續剛剛牛委員的發言就是說因為現在這一條最主要是討論金額我先講一個技術性的問題就是因為剛剛國民黨已經提出一個新的這個第五條然後他把幾個跟公務預算有關的不是移走了嗎那他移走的話那他現在這一個的金額是不是要"},{"start":7487.409,"end":7514.456,"text":"是要重新試算嗎還是什麼之類的我覺得這是一個技術性問題嘛對不對因為既然這一條我們要討論金額的話那再來第二個呢我想要提的事情就是說為什麼剛剛我們有提到1.25兆不能打折因為它是一個package我講個非常簡單的例子也順便回應剛剛那個馬委員講的假設我們今天要買防空的武器但是我們不買防空的系統這不是很奇怪嗎對不對就是你手跟腳都有了但是你不要那個大腦"},{"start":7515.676,"end":7529.481,"text":"如果有去機密會議的話應該就可以知道那個大腦也不是佔那個整個預算有多少但它就是一套的啊就是說你不可能你買了這一個可以偵測的然後你不買發射的或者你買了發射的不買偵測的結果你不買可以啟動的這一定就是一組的嘛"},{"start":7532.942,"end":7549.01,"text":"這就是為什麼1.25兆很難打折的原因是因為它是一整套的不對稱戰力的設計剛剛也有講說我們很關心剛剛毛委員也有提到也是關心國內的產業發展這個剛剛冠廷委員也提到國內的產業發展無人載具看起來是非常重要的一環"},{"start":7550.771,"end":7570.257,"text":"古人載具如果你沒有一定的這個年限你沒有辦法去刺激那個產業在各地不管在台中在嘉義去蓬勃發展所以這就是為什麼1.25兆我們覺得它是一個package非常重要的原因以上我們請國防部顧部長發言完畢以後再請馬文君顧部長請表達意見 謝謝"},{"start":7571.488,"end":7599.278,"text":"所以我簡要回應幾點第一點就是說剛剛馬委員也提到的就是說未來兩三年是我們護款高峰期那我們也報告中裡面也提到的就是說我們每年能夠有軍事投資的這個金額扣掉了持續案之後能夠新增的新增項目的軍事投資的金額是有限的那我們也跟委員有做過報告後續我們並不是把所有都放在特別預算案"},{"start":7601.021,"end":7614.87,"text":"我們後續的新政案包括華氏的天建二型、天空三型的續購、陸設建二的反攻飛彈的續購熊二熊三的反攻飛彈的續購還有相關的包括夜視鏡、跑花刀搶救設備等等我們總需求有高達700億"},{"start":7617.401,"end":7634.026,"text":"所以我們本來就是在規劃就是說我們的年度預算應該也有一個適度的成長但是我們會考量整個行政院一種整體的總預算會不會因為年度預算產生了一個排擠而"},{"start":7635.026,"end":7649.302,"text":"造成我們沒有辦法將這個我們希望的行政案項納入這個年度預算而因此一直在等這個不斷地在遞延那所以因為這樣子所以才會有希望有一個特別預算那現在"},{"start":7652.103,"end":7677.749,"text":"這個國民黨的委員他有一個論點意思就是說我們只要軍購的不需要偽製跟商購的但是剛剛馬上也提到了我們海空戰力特別提升的那個案子裡面其實全部都是偽製案也就是說是屬於國內偽製的案子所以國內的偽製的案項不能夠說不重要比如說我舉個例子來講我們在公開版本事實上也提到了就是說我們航空的部分我們也特別提到我們需要這個"},{"start":7682.75,"end":7700.415,"text":"這個高高空的一個攔截的強攻飛彈那這個部分也擺在我們的特別預算案裡面那這個跟其他的部分有做搭配那這個部分在整個經濟專報裡面有做過一個完整的一個說明那麼再講一下就是說"},{"start":7702.458,"end":7718.365,"text":"有關這個我們有一些就是說它這個一照2500億大概這個規模是如何形成的它整個其實是跟你每一個它所形成的這個作戰的運用它是一個整體的規劃"},{"start":7719.645,"end":7743.166,"text":"它整體的規劃不外就涉及到兩件事情一個就是不對稱戰力的形成一個就是防衛任性那這兩個把它成為一個主軸讓我們來把每一個案項做一個完整的一個說明那按照現在國民黨跟民主黨所提出來的第五條修正案的結果那這個五項事實上只涵蓋了這個美國已經知會國會的這幾個案項"},{"start":7746.809,"end":7770.323,"text":"如果這幾個案項加起來,如果你就限這五項的話那事實上這個金額是相當有限,也就是大家已經都認知了大概110億美金的那個金額那這個金額顯然是不足以涵蓋後面可能再有的金額那我們還有也整個完整的去說明了"},{"start":7771.075,"end":7784.775,"text":"我再舉一個例子就是說無人載具的這個部分像那個太平洋司令Papalo已經講得非常清楚無人載具的重要性他已經一再的強調這一件事情不是我們要"},{"start":7786.797,"end":7808.666,"text":"單純的國防自主而已而是我們整個防衛作戰需求的一個重要的部分那如果沒有建立這樣子的一個國防自主的產業從俄武戰爭看來我們完全沒有韌性可言嘛那所以這個是環繞在這個地方更何況是強調就是說為什麼國防部作為一個最大的需求單位有必要要借這個特別預算的規模預算經費穩定的來源然後能夠編列之後讓"},{"start":7815.8,"end":7829.457,"text":"從事這個產業的人有信心另外我要特別強調一下大家要注意到我們在機密專報裡面一再的提到台美共同研發及採購合作裝備系統這個部分這個部分也要請務必要考慮在裡面"},{"start":7831.311,"end":7856.317,"text":"我很希望有來聽我們這個完整規劃的委員應該可以理解這個一照2500億是怎麼產生出來的這件事情除非你要具體的認為是說我是建議用刪去你如果能夠講你認為哪一個不重要你要把它刪"},{"start":7859.281,"end":7865.319,"text":"如果基於表決最後的立場你把它刪掉我們沒有意見啊但是如果按照現在"},{"start":7867.132,"end":7889.219,"text":"我們的立場一定還是堅持一照兩千五百這是我們的立場那如果你們的立場是認為你要刪掉那你要刪掉你要刪掉什麼項目你必須要有一個有一個講法嘛假設你因為你刪掉那個項目就表示我們不能編那個預算嘛對不對所以你要刪掉兩個項目你要先有一個前期確定而不是在喊一個價格喊一個價格之後"},{"start":7890.239,"end":7918.006,"text":"那項目呢如果按照這第五條現在交給我手上的這個項目那我想這個金額那就是110美金的部分的金額這裡看起來就是這個金額因為只有這五項已經智慧國會的這個項目這顯然我覺得我們"},{"start":7920.109,"end":7947.042,"text":"沒有辦法能夠接受我們沒有辦法能夠接受那我只是一再的就是說我們經濟專報裡面講得非常的清楚一照兩千塊是什麼出來的我們希望能夠獲得一個全部的支持個別的預算項目拿到立法院來再由立法院審議立法院審議認為這不應該要編入這一個特別預算自然還可以砍掉嘛對不對那我們還是堅持我們是有整體的規劃的那特別條例的部分我們整個能力建構"},{"start":7947.742,"end":7951.087,"text":"是完整的 希望大家能夠支持這樣的完整的能力建構"},{"start":7964.712,"end":7986.401,"text":"首先我回應一下國防自主不是今天有特別預算編列的時候或者特別條例要通過的時候才有的這個已經講很久了國防自主大家都非常重視不管是我們自己的飛機潛艦還有我們所有的彈藥大家都說國防自主我們講了很久而且我們也持續在做除非我們否定了"},{"start":7986.721,"end":7999.511,"text":"之前大家所做的國防自主的努力或者我們認為它根本沒有效果不然我們一直以來都在做國防自主這是第一點第二個很重要的話如果像我們剛剛提到有這麼多這麼重要包括我們的無人機無人載具這麼重要的話我們今年的國防預算是有史以來最高的可是這麼重要的東西卻沒有放進公務預算到底是為什麼"},{"start":8013.001,"end":8020.246,"text":"他把公務預算到底編列了哪些是排擠了這些現在一直叫在野黨說你們覺得哪些不重要要把它刪掉你當時覺得那麼重要為什麼你沒有把它編入公務預算而反過來問我們說哪些要刪掉我們怎麼知道哪些應該是輕重緩急這個是應該國防部去做評估的另外還有剛剛有提到說我們的防空武器跟防空系統這個都要一併的去考量"},{"start":8039.679,"end":8045.862,"text":"我們看到這一次美方同意的這個軍售的項目不管是M109A7我們之前就自走炮還有海馬式還有這個反裝甲型的這個無人機飛彈系統然後托式飛彈跟標槍飛彈這個我們過去都有買所以不會現在突然讓它要增加賣給你的時候你才有系統的需求以前就應該要有"},{"start":8068.191,"end":8070.192,"text":"所以為什麼是這些都已經買過而且剛結案而已那個托士飛彈跟那個標槍飛彈一個是前年一個是去年剛剛結案我們都有買現在只是增購他又多賣給我們那你當時為什麼沒有想到系統你現在要做特別條例要通過的時候你才說這個系統很重要那以前都在做什麼"},{"start":8091.147,"end":8114.232,"text":"你都沒有做然後都沒有考量嗎我們的軍事的預算本來就是五年的建軍規劃你本來就應該想到啊所以就這些部分我們覺得當你在說自主的時候請大家思考看看我們最近一直提到彈藥的部分我們看到美國包括他自己去打伊朗他兩天打掉他一年的彈藥量"},{"start":8115.652,"end":8118.815,"text":"我們本來熊系列的這些飛彈也是號稱甚至美國都做不出來可是我們當時說因為我們的產能不足所以我們編了大筆的預算還用插隊的方式去買了魚叉飛彈就是因為他說我們做不了"},{"start":8133.55,"end":8153.316,"text":"所以當時買了魚叉飛彈那今天也是啊你在這麼急的情況之下你說彈藥其實是非常重要的這個如果是國防自主的話為什麼最近編了那麼多的預算是外購的這個反而是國防部應該要解釋清楚的如果你應該要國防自主的話到時候彈藥我們的需求量才是大的"},{"start":8155.917,"end":8175.842,"text":"這個部分為什麼我們自由產線我們以前都能做的我們現在花大錢不斷的外購當你說自主的時候應該要先把這些解釋清楚好謝謝我想這一條我們就不再討論我們回頭我們先保留起來回頭我們在二樓再來討論顯然還沒有辦法達成共識我們進入台灣民眾黨團所提的第六條我們第35頁第六條"},{"start":8186.935,"end":8191.736,"text":"34頁台灣民眾黨團我想請民眾黨團有關收支規劃財務計畫的條文請提案的台灣民眾黨團請發言好嗎34頁你們所提的現在第6頁第6條吧"},{"start":8205.802,"end":8219.922,"text":"那我們的版本第六條吼那就是以本條例籌編的這個第一期的預算應該考量本條例實行期間我國人口前景結構變動的因素的影響省省規劃"},{"start":8221.824,"end":8247.281,"text":"收支的額度及中長程的財務計畫衡量國家稅率負擔的能力以營運高齡化及少殖民化對變略預算的財政衝擊最主要我們是考量我們的特別預算對我們預算的一個衝擊的一個因素 以上好 謝謝臺灣民眾黨人提案黨團 陳孟漢文請發言"},{"start":8250.656,"end":8268.253,"text":"這個第六檔當時有討論過所以我就簡要發言即可就是說因為從剛剛的脈絡順下來我會發現其實為什麼是公務預算什麼是特別預算我覺得好像有些人大家是不是那麼清楚不然的話按照剛剛很多發言就是全部都變公務預算也就可以了我覺得這是不合理的"},{"start":8268.373,"end":8288.281,"text":"沒關係我們到二輪您再發言但是因為第六條這一邊因為第六條這邊呢他講的是你要顧慮到比如說人口結構啦中長城規劃啦但是就是因為顧慮到這些所以才訂特別條例啊如果今天我們都全部用公務的話就會擠壓到其他預算嘛什麼教文啊這個這個衛福啊等等之類的"},{"start":8291.182,"end":8314.85,"text":"就是因為顧慮到這件事情所以才訂特別條例所以簡單來講第六條就是把為什麼它是特別條例重新寫一遍但是因為它就是因為特別條例這個寫跟不寫其實是一模一樣的這就是為什麼要訂特別條例的精神這也是可能在剛剛很多討論的時候大家一直講公務跟特別可能就一直搞不清楚這兩個的分界民進黨團隊這個第六條沒有意見嗎"},{"start":8317.35,"end":8345.888,"text":"應該沒有意見嘛這第六條沒有增加的必要性啦那個國民黨團請表達意見好嗎 第六條 台灣民眾黨團所提的沒有意見的話我們就沒有必要性有有有 他說他已經規劃了 主席總統都已經有回覆我只是請教國民黨團請表達意見謝謝 我會認為這第六條編的其實利益相當良善因為的確不管是一般預算還是特別預算 錢就是錢那國家的預算本來收入就有限"},{"start":8346.448,"end":8375.316,"text":"那如果說不去 如果說當然啦我們知道國際情勢的毀絕多變但是如果我們沒有在說這個比例上面有一定程度的捉捏 拿捏的話其實對於整個全國國民跟所有事情的支出跟福利其實蠻不妥的所以我覺得這個放在裡面我覺得這是件好事三個黨團 請請主席總書 請表達一下報告院院長還有各位協商的那個立法委員因為"},{"start":8376.56,"end":8397.362,"text":"這段的文字在行政院所定的中央及地方政府的預算籌編原則這個原則是根據預算法第32條的授權行政院定然後文字完全一樣就是說行政院現在所定的中央跟地方政府不是只有中央中央跟地方政府的預算籌編原則"},{"start":8399.253,"end":8415.194,"text":"完全跟這個文字一樣所以現在在編預算其實都有考慮到國家各方面的需要那八年1.25兆一年就是1563億那我們總預算跟特別預算一年大概3.4兆"},{"start":8416.736,"end":8443.874,"text":"所以佔的比例事實上是不高 主席總署國防部提出來這些的時候 主席總署在衡量國家資源的使用是政府可以負擔的政府會考慮到少子化 老人化各方面還有淨零轉型各方面的需要在預算籌備原則裡面都訂得很清楚所以基於這個其他特別條例也都沒有這些文字而且現在已經在實施了所以是不是可以不用列進去"},{"start":8448.797,"end":8472.335,"text":"我想第一個在講說籌編第一期預算我並不清楚這個第一期預算講的是什麼意思這是第一個文則問題第二個剛剛主席總書已經講了就這一個條例本身應該是在總預算籌編的時候要去考量的不是這個特別條例本身要去考量的特別條例已經在前面的"},{"start":8473.629,"end":8495.846,"text":"院長已經擱這第五條裡面我們已經提到了他的總量這個舉債的合計數不可以超過總預算跟特別預算稅主總額的合計的15%然後一年期以上的公共債務法 會員或創業者也要依公共債務法第五條第一項辦理所以他已經依照公共債務法跟相關財政紀律法規定已經做了一個考量了"},{"start":8496.366,"end":8509.077,"text":"在這一個部分有關政府要如何去衡量這件事情在特別條例裡面不應該再加上這樣子的一個條文因為加上這樣子一個條文等於就"},{"start":8510.754,"end":8526.866,"text":"去否定了我們前面我要編的8年一照2500億的一個意旨嘛因為這個是屬於主計總署在整個編制行政院甚至包括中央預算包括地方總預算的時候要去考量的一個事項嘛蔡總長您發言請民眾黨要加這樣子其實就是一句話"},{"start":8540.089,"end":8566.725,"text":"好但是為什麼好但不要編呢就是說因為如果這樣寫可以這樣寫如果要繼續這樣寫的話那本席作為立法院聯合國永續發展策進會的會長我應該要請他們編列預算的時候也要注意對環境的衝擊然後呢那個范雲委員對於這個性別他也可以寫進去其實大家都可以寫因為這是籌編原則啦"},{"start":8569.486,"end":8593.419,"text":"國家在編列任何特別預算或預算的時候他籌編原則裡面他就會告訴你一定要注意這個財政會不會排擠啦對財政的衝擊啦所以我的意思是這樣就是說如果民眾黨覺得你們對於少子化跟高齡化這兩件事情特別重視那本席給你一個建議就是說這個你可以做一個附帶決議啦來凸顯說本黨對這件事情特別care"},{"start":8599.461,"end":8609.552,"text":"否則的話這樣的條例我們每一個條例其實那你把籌備原則都要放到以後其實任何的條例都應該只要牽扯到錢都應該加這一條"},{"start":8611.204,"end":8632.746,"text":"所以本席才會建議你不是說不對啦就是說做了這件事情可以做那因為要凸顯可能是民眾黨的這個你們特別care特別關心特別重視那本席建議你就是說不用在條例裡面你可以做一個附帶決議我想大家都會支持嘛本席一開始就跟你說好就你做附帶決議本席一定"},{"start":8633.769,"end":8636.27,"text":"要求民進黨團全力支持這個附帶決議好 謝謝蔡總召陳慶榮 陳總召您同意嗎我這邊補充我們會增加這一條 絕對也是有我們的一個考量那就像剛剛"},{"start":8649.597,"end":8675.062,"text":"蔡總長講的預算資源就有限大家也知道這樣的一個特別條例的籌編未來預算也會排到其他預算我們擔心的也是社福預算那我們台灣民眾黨也一直表達說這個特別條例通過之後我們有要求國安部要每年做專報"},{"start":8676.542,"end":8694.572,"text":"那預算也是原則上就一人一邊嘛這個部分包括在行政總統都同意那這樣的一個過程就是整個在八年期間啊我們根據我們這一條的一個原則啊我們可以來請我們國防部"},{"start":8695.572,"end":8709.12,"text":"對於做專報的部分及預算一年一邊的一個情況有所一個依據這是我們增加這一條的一個最主要的一個原則我在這裡做這樣的一個補充改為附帶決議您同意嗎 陳總召我們就不用條文了就不入法了 我們改為附帶決議好嗎"},{"start":8732.686,"end":8747.918,"text":"這個有連動嘛 有連動那我們剛剛把我們這樣的原則已經署名進行即使這個不影響我們剛剛保留我們那個深水區的部分那我覺得這個是我們"},{"start":8748.938,"end":8773.107,"text":"也是我們台灣民眾黨一直表達著這是專報跟預算的一年一邊這樣的一個原則我在這邊是不是既然協商嘛大家要善意這個不影響未來的一個八年的一個進度我們就把它這個留著好不好這個就不要陸在意見了好不好今天請國民黨團徐政委員請表達意見"},{"start":8773.743,"end":8797.034,"text":"我想今年的就是我們的國防預算9000多億已經是史上最高而且再加上特別條例1000多億其實已經上兆了再加上這次的軍購特別條例未來還有支出非常多所以確實我們認為是有必要就是要審慎的規劃這個財政的收支跟財政的計劃以這個確保我們財政的一個健全所以我們是認為這條應該是要保留"},{"start":8799.054,"end":8822.005,"text":"我們現在沒有辦法達成共識我們這一條條文先保留我們等一下再來討論我們現在主席我只是想提醒一下好 顧部長請這個文字不管怎麼看都怪怪的以本條例籌編第一期預算時要考量所以籌編第二期的時候就不用了他的意思是這樣子啊這文字怎麼看都不對嘛那如果你是要講的話應該是說政府籌編預算時應考量那我覺得這句話"},{"start":8828.195,"end":8856.39,"text":"我講的白一點這叫多此一舉因為你這個寫跟沒寫一樣嘛所以你要你如果你至少你現在講說政府籌編預算時應考量什麼什麼什麼那那這樣是這樣有這樣規定我是覺得特別條例的預算他已經已經已經考量8年的這一個那個相關的這個"},{"start":8859.703,"end":8885.143,"text":"已經考量了所以這個文字我真的沒有問題我們現在回頭還要現在保留第三條條文起來了我們回頭再來討論接下來我們進入行政院提案的第六條民眾黨提案的第七條國民黨團的第七條預算執行及審計這個要請各黨團來代表發言首先我們請國防部做個說明法務部請準備"},{"start":8891.13,"end":8904.741,"text":"這六條我們想就是依照向來特別條例的一個慣例我們就是會寫清楚說預算的執行審計機關應依法來辦理審計那依法來辦理審計所有相關審計應該適用的規範就已經規範在這裡面了所以我們是覺得應該是這樣子寫就可以了法務部吳烈協代表請發言好嗎請表達一下意見謝謝"},{"start":8922.037,"end":8935.45,"text":"國民黨團請準備主席 各位針對民眾黨版第五條的第三項我們提供部分第七條國民黨版"},{"start":8943.769,"end":8947.23,"text":"那針對第七條預算執行的這個監督問題那關於政府機關執行預算的監督考核還有責任的追究這個在審計法上現行的審計法上已經有完整的這個規定了那我們"},{"start":8969.656,"end":8991.011,"text":"依據這個審計法的規定機關如果執行預算有違法失職或者是執行績效低落的話那審計機關依照審計法就可以移送檢察院來這個調查處理那國民黨版第七條的第三項第三項是規定"},{"start":8992.628,"end":9015.339,"text":"如果有違法失職的這個情形導致執行績效低落的話應將執行機關首長及相關主管移送監察院來調查懲戒那我們依照監察法第六條跟第八條的規定監察院追究對象彈劾的對象是違法失職的人"},{"start":9016.072,"end":9042.085,"text":"那我們第三項草案第三項是規定違法失職有這種情形那被移送的是機關的首長跟這個主管機關這個相關的主管那我們認為這樣的規定跟審計法還有監察法的規定有不相這個不太契合的地方那這個呢我們提出來請參考關於這個事項目前"},{"start":9045.714,"end":9074.515,"text":"院版的跟民眾黨版的規定它的用語是審計機關應依法審計這是一個版本那國民黨版第七條的第三項是規定有剛剛講的這個問題大概目前有這兩個方案那如果是依據這個院版的還有民眾黨版的"},{"start":9076.364,"end":9082.291,"text":"審計機關依法審計等於是回歸現行的審計法去處理那如果是"},{"start":9083.855,"end":9106.736,"text":"國民黨版第七條的第三項如果是要往這個方向走的話那我們是建議應將執行機關首長及相關主管這一句話是不是可以考量可以拿掉因為大前提因為公務員違法失職他已經界定了這個違法失職的公務員"},{"start":9108.271,"end":9131.489,"text":"本來就不限於他的成績跟角色他當然包括首長跟相關主管如果首長跟相關主管沒有違法失職那就不再被移送的這個行列裡面另外依據監察法的規定監察院調查處理的結果那就是彈劾"},{"start":9133.308,"end":9152.888,"text":"也是要向懲戒機關那至於是不是懲戒必須要由懲戒法院依司法程序來審理所以我們最後這邊移送監察院調查懲戒那懲戒權是在懲戒機關所以這個部分如果要採用這個版本那建議的是移送"},{"start":9154.452,"end":9166.66,"text":"監察院調查處理就是參考審計法的規定那這樣會跟監察法的規定會比較相合以上謝謝法務部的說明謝謝我們請提案的黨團民眾黨團請發言國民黨團請準備"},{"start":9171.352,"end":9190.038,"text":"有關於民眾黨第七條行政院版的第六條我們寫的要比行政院版要更清楚一些些除了依法要辦理審計之外我們大概對流用的部分有做了一些特殊的規定必須要經過立法院同意"},{"start":9190.778,"end":9212.174,"text":"那另外就是借滿錢那時候我們在委員會協商的時候大家好像問題也沒有什麼太大的意見那最後一個就是軍工的部分我們這個第三項跟第四項就是軍工的部分因為我們在委員會的時候其實有一些專家有一些意見所以我們也願意把這個部分暫時把它拿掉就是軍工的部分第三項跟第四項以上"},{"start":9218.097,"end":9219.098,"text":"我們接下來請國民黨團請表達意見提案的國民黨團"},{"start":9239.741,"end":9261.421,"text":"沒有關係你可以稍微等一下沒關係請莊惠雄委員發言國民黨團請準備好謝謝主席如果按照我個人看沒有第六條也沒有關係的因為你本來你公務機關你花了預算你去執行完以後你審計機關你本來就第一個你就必須要依法去做審計嘛第六條"},{"start":9262.742,"end":9286.415,"text":"不管是行政院的提案啦,而且當然是行之如宜啦不然其實大家不用去爭執這一條啦那第二個啊,那個各個,你看台灣民眾黨跟中華國民黨裡面所提到的說主管機關你去依照預算法第63條去辦理流用的時候應該經過立法院的同意這一點就又有一點侵害到行政權"},{"start":9287.435,"end":9300.187,"text":"你如果說按照預算法63條的話你那個科目有剩餘本來就可以有留用這其實是我們立法院的授權啦我們通過了一個法令但是它其實是有額度的啦20%而已啦20%而已啦所以其實我倒認為這一款這個寫來63條這個你也不用計高第三個"},{"start":9310.612,"end":9315.217,"text":"就有一點縮小了7月31號監察委員全部都已經卸任了那我們這邊在審條例的時候大家其實是有點看不起監察院的監察院你不用這麼貼面 沒辦法你過啦國民黨我們也不推薦 民眾黨也不推薦然後在第一輪的時候搞不好就全部把它殺掉"},{"start":9329.634,"end":9355.001,"text":"檢察院就變空的啊我們現在反而在條例裡面又賦予它好像又一個 喔 好像是一個非常清高的一個位置那遇到什麼事情之後立法院就說 來 檢察院趕快來上環保證給牽下去 給抬下去這個有一點點又怪怪的啦所以我的意思就是說三黨再考慮一下這一條其實不用爭執啦我們就叫那個行政院辦分就好了啊如果真的沒有 你整條三條都三檔的"},{"start":9359.802,"end":9385.225,"text":"請證院板的 國民黨的 台灣民眾黨的全部都砍掉 我都認為這個意義也沒有很大啦以上說明 但是就行李如雨的就院板這樣提條例上我們一般本來就是這樣的一個規定其實是無傷大雅啦 謝謝謝謝莊委員那國民黨的暫時可以緩和一下 先暫緩一下我想請那個各黨團還有國安部聽一下我的意見就是"},{"start":9386.884,"end":9404.021,"text":"臺灣民眾黨團所提的第七條上面所列的我們保留下來到第三項把它刪掉轉為加美會期向立法院提出專案報告用這樣方式我來念一遍大家請仔細聽一下陳慶榮總召麻煩你要聽清楚喔好 謝謝"},{"start":9405.722,"end":9434.779,"text":"本條例所列的預算之執行應依下列規定辦理一審計機關依法辦理審計二主管機關依預算法第六三條流用前應經立法院同意本條例施行屆滿之日次年五月底前主管機關應就其實施成效做成總結報告並送立法院那美惠其向立法院提出專案報告"},{"start":9436.969,"end":9451.309,"text":"這樣可以嗎?有啊,我們有啊,流用前應經理法院同意這邊都有啦但是問題是我們預算法的規定本來就是可以流用20%的範圍裡面"},{"start":9453.7,"end":9468.475,"text":"最後我們這邊加一句 美會期軍相立法院提出專案報告我想這樣就符合剛才王嘉祥 王委員所提出來也符合蔡總召說沒有關係 先這樣 大家先看一下 不要急著發言這樣可以不可以接受"},{"start":9472.747,"end":9484.614,"text":"這個流用的部分可以請那個主計總處說明一下這個部分會造成的影響好嗎當然可以當然可以當然可以好請請請發言報告院長各位那個"},{"start":9485.789,"end":9511.945,"text":"預算法第六三條就是規定流用剛剛有委員提到就是用途別的科目如果有一個科目不足因為你是一年多前編的所以有百分之二十可以流用的空間但嚴格規定不能流用到人事費那個預算法是這麼規定總預算在執行的時候每人現在已經將近三兆還有其他特別預算在執行的時候"},{"start":9512.645,"end":9539.666,"text":"都有流用的彈性嘛因為你不可能在一年多以前遇見未來所有的那個科目啊不會調整變動嘛所以只有在這個現在這個特別預算條例啊才規定這個比總預算比其他特別預算還嚴格這個我覺得在那個不成比例啦不成立法的那個比例啊所以您的意思是說不同意台灣民眾黨團這個版本"},{"start":9541.82,"end":9546.402,"text":"這個部分我們不同意因為這個不是一般的預算它是特別條例你本來就是針對特殊的一些項目你才編列這些特別條例跟特別預算所以你如果在一般的常態的預算裡面你如果不足的時候你會有20%的流用"},{"start":9565.229,"end":9568.591,"text":"那是因為其實讓我們可能在推動的時候不要自愛難行可是這個部分其實它是很明確的所以如果你要留用的過程當中因為你這個是非常態的那你經過立法院同意的編列的特別條我們通過的特別條例或者這樣的特別預算如果你要留用"},{"start":9586.641,"end":9604.458,"text":"他跟我們說很重要又是對國防國家安全是非常重要的如果你要留用照理說你就應該經過立法院同意如果他是合乎常理而且是必要的我覺得立法院不可能不同意所以這個部分我們還是要求這個不可以隨便留用"},{"start":9607.882,"end":9627.938,"text":"陳慧琳委員請發言因為我看國民黨的這個版本裡面沒有應經立法院同意他是寫上立法院提出報告那是不是比較就報告就好因為在同意的話好像有點立法行政的這種分立好像就有點被"},{"start":9629.499,"end":9639.667,"text":"行政權被侵害到所以是不是國民黨你們說的專案報告即可一定要我覺得經過立法院同意這個好像不符合常理那也不符合剛才講的履歷原則"},{"start":9643.541,"end":9671.658,"text":"因為這個在委員會有做過討論我想我們可以這樣子我們融合這個國民黨黨跟民進黨黨的版本第一個就是說第七條的第一項還是可以列本條例所列預算執行審計機關應依法辦理審計這是第一項第二項我們就納入這個國民黨黨人的第一項主管機關應專案列管及考核本條例所列計畫執行並將執行進入及績效每會期向立法院提出專案報告這是第二項"},{"start":9672.619,"end":9701.681,"text":"好 第三項這個主管機關集體就是國民黨版的第四項主管機關及以上機關因依法執行並落實監督機制確保公安預算確實投入戰略建構這第三項然後第四項就是加入民眾黨團的第二項本條例施行屆滿之日次年五月底前主管機關因究其實施成效作成總結報告並送立完約這樣就融合了融合了國民黨版跟"},{"start":9702.711,"end":9706.995,"text":"民眾狼煩了這樣子沒關係 部長請繼續我剛剛的建議是這樣子部長現在端了一個八寶飯出來了大家有沒有什麼寶貴意見我們這邊也是覺得"},{"start":9721.764,"end":9738.487,"text":"一點點稍微複雜就是說我們納入了國民黨版的第一項 第二項 第四項然後再加民眾黨版的第二項國民黨是堅持不得留用"},{"start":9752.835,"end":9769.453,"text":"來來,我們在這邊一清一調,院長不好意思啦,我這邊還是要表達我們最重要還是一個有用的這個原則嘛那應景立法院同意,其實就像剛剛我們專委員講的"},{"start":9773.378,"end":9786.349,"text":"我們也了解預算法它可以用 基本上一定會同意那我們會增加這一條就是因為特別條例我們如果能夠協商成功我們要購買的品項 購買的這些設備品項"},{"start":9792.133,"end":9809.241,"text":"基本上都是很精準的啦基本上都是很精準的所以也不用去擔心這個流用藥劑立法院同意會變成一個阻礙那當然我們部長很用心把民眾黨版本跟國民黨的版本把它合併在一起"},{"start":9813.763,"end":9832.129,"text":"但是我還是認為剛剛院長所提的這樣的一個修正的內容我覺得就是已經是最妥適的我們可以來接受剛剛院長所提的這樣的一個版本"},{"start":9833.109,"end":9855.729,"text":"沒有關係 我們現在讓我們秘書處這邊作業人員先做把文字先打出來給大家看一下現在有A跟B A就是我剛才所念的B就是顧部長剛剛擷取不同黨團之間大家所在乎的意見 把它文字化的處理好 總共AB兩個版本 請大家參考一下你先給第一個 你改那個"},{"start":9863.253,"end":9881.05,"text":"因為大家在參考 所以我表達一下意見其實剛剛青龍兄你剛才說的預算法講這個流用 大家日日半年 新規預算很久了 大家知道流用其實它也沒有亂用"},{"start":9881.971,"end":9884.313,"text":"比如說反而流用大家不要去誤解這樣的一個名詞反而流用來講的話你那個整個總預算來講總Total你根本就不會去任何的一個增加流用也不是你要用到哪裡就是用到哪裡去"},{"start":9897.726,"end":9910.011,"text":"這個同一個工作計畫裡面底下甚至於你那個除了剛剛那個主計總署剛才你們說到的不能留的人事費用這個部分其實連你資本門都不能留到經常門裡面去所以這一些其實是很專業的東西本地留用的部分本地就有20%20%預算法我們也要通過"},{"start":9922.935,"end":9950.472,"text":"你現在特別軍國的部分 特別條例裡面你又跟他講說你那個流用的不可以再經過日本人的一個通過這個其實都有一點在我看來其實都沒有必要啦所以你們才會講說有需要根本就不會刁難什麼大家會講到這個地方我是很中性的在談這個整個流用所以因為院長剛好提的是兩個版本嘛所以我想說這個大家其實不用那麼堅持啦我就再一次把流用它真正的一個意義啊來供大家做一個參考 謝謝"},{"start":9959.27,"end":9976.875,"text":"謝謝好 我們先保留起來我們等一下文字作業完發下去我們再來討論我們現在開始繼續往前我們現在進到國民黨團提案的第八條有關第二階段特別條例的條文請大家翻到第38頁麻煩請提案的國民黨團請發言"},{"start":9993.091,"end":10008.639,"text":"就這個部分我們在考量到不管是對美軍購其實那時候一直有提到美方可能也會陸續有同意出售一些相關我們"},{"start":10010.16,"end":10026.703,"text":"有一些武器裝備等等那我們也希望說在這裡可以讓國防部可以有比較大的運用的空間所以特別提出本條謝謝國民黨團為了國防部著想來 顧部長你先表達一下意見 甄列第八條我已經在說明了 他現在說等到還有發駕輸我們就要"},{"start":10035.683,"end":10054.826,"text":"再提一個特別條例,然後再提一個特別條例以後,等特別條例通過以後再提一個預算從這一次拿到發價書的期程上來看,這明顯是緩不濟急而且這也不符合我們過去計劃預算的概念因為我們過去就是說在得到美方的供售的意願之後,我們就馬上提出預算案"},{"start":10055.447,"end":10075.217,"text":"那都是在這個還沒有知會國會前我們就可能送出那沒有知會國會前我們就採機密預算的方式知會國會之後就公開預算這個本來就是要讓立法院有一個機會來審查這個預算案不管是總預算還是這個這個特別條例預算應該都是採如此的精神嗎"},{"start":10076.296,"end":10094.657,"text":"所以說他再另外提一個特別條例,就等於這個條例裡面的金額實際上就只有他們現在所提的第五條這樣的一個金額了等於就沒有任何加恩的概念存在在這裡面了所以特別條例也就是又涉及到"},{"start":10095.798,"end":10114.212,"text":"這個第五條沒有辦法這樣訂我瞭解,那就只有暫時保留,反正第五條那現在請大家回過頭來看看剛剛手上所發給各位的我們回到行政院所提的第六條台灣民眾黨團所提的第七條"},{"start":10122.912,"end":10145.935,"text":"我們順過條次,現在變成A、B兩個版本,到第八條,條次已經順好了A就是本條例所列預算之執行,依下列規定辦理,一審計機關,依法辦理審計二,主管機關預算法第六三條,流用前應經理法院同意本條例施行建版之日次年五月底前,主管機關應就"},{"start":10147.556,"end":10161.921,"text":"其實是成效做總結報告並送立法院美惠及向立法院提出專案報告這就是陳慶榮總召剛剛所提的我嘗試性的跟大家報告再來就是B版剛剛顧部長所提的融合了不同的黨團之間的意見第八條這條有好幾個黨團"},{"start":10166.263,"end":10182.735,"text":"的想法都在裡面請大家仔細聽一下本條例所列預算之執行審計機關應依法辦理審計主管機關應專案列管及考核本條例所列計劃之執行並將執行進度及績效每會即向立法院提出專案報告"},{"start":10184.574,"end":10213.01,"text":"主管機關及其上級機關應依法執行並落實監督機制確保國防預算確實投入戰力建構本條例施行屆滿之日4年5月底前主管機關應就其實施成效作成總結報告並送立法院那請各黨團表達一下意見現在顯然是A版的第二條是有爭議的"},{"start":10214.278,"end":10216.1,"text":"關於流用這個部分,或許我們不會去流用"},{"start":10230.498,"end":10247.559,"text":"依照我從一個法律人的角度來看就是說預算法63條它本來就是授權行政機關如果說我們在這裡創下一個先例要經過立法院同意的話其實是有一點違背了立法預算法63條的授權原則其實是有違反權力分立原則的部分"},{"start":10249.241,"end":10269.577,"text":"這個我只是,當然這不應該是我,我應該要講我光復的立場,但是我還是稍微,事實上因為你如果種下,我覺得如果說立了這樣的一個例子,以後說大家同意的話那這個流用要經過立法院同意這件事情,事實上是超越預算法63條的立法本質"},{"start":10278.037,"end":10289.792,"text":"我們為什麼會有這樣流用的一個定債協議最主要就是國防部過去有一個應該不太好的一個範例"},{"start":10291.033,"end":10313.212,"text":"那之前我們立法院曾經針對國安部的預算同意他去買F16的一個戰機的預算結果我們國安部把他有用去買內雷劍那這些事情其實當初立法院也不曉得"},{"start":10314.453,"end":10325.607,"text":"就是因為金額很龐大6月20%那個金額是很龐大的所以他會去明明我們立法院同意他去買A"},{"start":10327.199,"end":10344.018,"text":"他說過流用他去買米是有這樣的一個案例有這樣的一個案例所以我們這一條的一個流用為什麼會一個願意在這裡是因為他們有過去的紀錄"},{"start":10349.053,"end":10367.222,"text":"謝謝院長針對這一條的話其實國民黨是很堅持就是因為其實既然大家對於軍購的條例這麼的重視所以我們認為執行力絕對不能出問題所以在這個過程中的話一定要有責任追究的相關問題尤其是我們希望就是說當執行成效低於核定進度的50%的時候要將"},{"start":10369.103,"end":10383.035,"text":"執行機關的首長請相關主管移送監察院調查的原因就是因為目前懲處的都是基層人員真正下指令的跟真正做決策的首長跟相關的主管都不會受到懲處所以針對這一條公共黨團是認為應該要我們堅持要用這樣的一個版本"},{"start":10387.879,"end":10416.201,"text":"我嘗試先來再把A、B兩個版本再融合一次大家來聽聽看好不好先不要急著發言再等一下針對我再把它組合一下大家再來表達一下意見就第八條這邊如果大家各黨團幹部同意公安部也同意的話本條例所列預算之執行應依應該依下列規定辦理依審計機關依法辦理審計二主管機關依預算法第六三條辦理流用前應經立法院統一"},{"start":10417.162,"end":10420.586,"text":"下面就接剛才國安部顧部長所提的"},{"start":10422.588,"end":10444.606,"text":"第二項主管機關依依專案列管及考核本條例第三項主管機關及上級機關依依依法執行監督第四項本條例施行屆滿至五月底前實施成效及做總結報告送立法院這樣我們就把A版跟B版融合起來然後留用的部分也照國民黨團跟台灣民眾黨團的意見"},{"start":10448.169,"end":10466.299,"text":"放在這邊一起來併在一起這樣大家有沒有意見我想這應該我們已經請示過我們已經也請教過法治局意見這都完全沒有完全沒有權力分立的問題我們這邊表達得非常清楚可以把留用部分我們保留起來林沛祥委員請發言"},{"start":10468.082,"end":10488.103,"text":"報告主席我們認為說針對這個案子因為我們過去有太多的經驗有關執行部執行進度不到位的狀況所以國民黨黨團要求有關送監察院審查送監察院懲戒的事情我們必須保留在第七條"},{"start":10489.485,"end":10505.303,"text":"第七條國民黨的版本做到第二頁的時候有關監察院 送監察院審查有關執行進度不夠的時候因為剛剛區域政委員剛剛有提到說目前因為執行進度不佳而去被檢討的通常都是比較基層的承辦人員那你這樣子"},{"start":10506.484,"end":10534.603,"text":"林書長這樣的話就沒有辦法再談下去因為AB兩版本來想請大家看一下如果你一定要再回到監察機構那個保留的第三項的話這顯然大概要沒辦法打成共識囉大家是不是要思考一下也許我剛剛把AB兩版融合起來大家應該都能接受吧發言人您不要急著發言好不好稍微等一下大家能不能接受AB兩版融合起來這樣可以的話我們就確定"},{"start":10535.745,"end":10558.556,"text":"好嗎如果你現在堅持監察院審計機關的話這個我們談不下去這個肯定沒辦法談是不是大家能考量一下我們就照我剛才最後一次所宣讀的那樣子可不可以副總統請發言謝謝院長北齊一直不想發言"},{"start":10560.441,"end":10585.307,"text":"不過這個是也是非常重要的一個核心的問題為什麼是一個核心的問題就是為什麼會用特別預算就是非常迫切非常急切要來實施尤其在國防這個方面所以呢各個政黨都是基於我們國防的要求然後坐在這裡"},{"start":10586.94,"end":10611.834,"text":"透過取債的方式而不在我們年度預算裡面編列透過取債的方式來提出這一份非常特殊的特別預算但是這個特別預算執行了以後我們必須要強調因為每一個因為就現在大家協議要通過的條文裡面"},{"start":10613.14,"end":10639.473,"text":"只是考核 最後考核往往都是基層人員被考核我們以現在所發生的情況來看現在目前立法院已經通過了預算 錢已經付了那執行到現在還有7000億的武器沒有進來所以這個執行率是非常的值得商榷"},{"start":10641.124,"end":10670.24,"text":"而我們不希望在三黨大家共同為了我們國防要求需求的情況之下共同來這裡協議通過的這樣的一個特別條例結果最後在執行方面呢確實讓整個國人來失望所以必須還是要有一套究責的機制我想今天這個不管我們是執政黨或在野黨我相信這個都是很有必要的"},{"start":10671.195,"end":10700.04,"text":"我想今天如果這個民進黨在演的話他一定會非常強調這個一定要入法我們換位思考這是一個最基本的一個監督的機制那如果這個監督機制啊把它拿掉了以後那到底未來這麼重要迫切的一個特別預算他的責任承擔跟究責機制到底在哪裡"},{"start":10701.943,"end":10725.355,"text":"不過我在這裡啊我把國民黨立場講得很清楚這是當時我們提出這個條例這一條第八條的內容是因為是這個情況那我想過去民進黨在也提出了零零總總我們就不一一贅述啦從這個獨豬獨牛啊還有很多零減豬講到現在"},{"start":10728.581,"end":10739.586,"text":"那我想當時的要求是如何而我們現在都不予追究但是最重要的這是國防安全的部分絕對不能沒有究責機制我想這個部分我們要應該理清"},{"start":10745.15,"end":10768.586,"text":"現在在手上,各位現在新拿到就是我剛剛所唸出來的融合不同政黨之間大家所在意、重視的,把它併在這個條文那現在國民黨團又提出來還是要堅持它原提案的第三項但是法務部剛才廖參事也表達了一些不同的意見所以我在這裡,我在思考是說"},{"start":10769.967,"end":10781.693,"text":"如果各黨團能夠同意這個合併的條文我們這個條文就確定了如果不能同意的話我們就必須要休息大家再來寫上來我再來唸一下大家再來看一看好不好"},{"start":10784.687,"end":10811.198,"text":"第八條本條例所列預算之執行應依下列規定辦理依審計機關應依法辦理審計主管機關依訴法第六三條流用前應該經立法院同意這個就完全符合國民黨跟台灣民眾黨團的要求在主管機關應立專案列管及考核本條例所列計劃之執行並將執行及進度績效每會期向立法院提出專案報告"},{"start":10812.538,"end":10841.467,"text":"主管機關及其上級機關因依法執行並落實監督機制確保國防預算確實投入戰力建構本條例施行屆滿之日四年五月底前主管機關應就其實施成效做成總結報告並送立法院我想這個應該大家各黨團可以接受吧如果可以的話我們第八條副總長請發言主席我覺得這樣子"},{"start":10842.642,"end":10865.307,"text":"因為剛剛特別清楚國民黨團必須把我們提出條例這條當時我們提出來的主要的意旨必須要說明清楚說明清楚但是基本上基於意識和諧我們還是尊重主席的才智好不好好謝謝那我們第八條如果大家沒有意見我們就通過了好嗎沒有沒有沒有院長其實我要再講一下"},{"start":10867.025,"end":10893.576,"text":"因為我擔心大家誤解預算法63條我流進跟流出流入跟流出本來就是20%為什麼預算法立法院要這樣一個規定就是說我不要讓你增加預算我在總預算我們在編總預算一定是這樣子我在編總預算一定是編下一次的比如說我今年我就編明年的"},{"start":10894.136,"end":10897.038,"text":"我就先編完才給你開 你預算也63條的規定是在跟你講說我在同一個工作計畫底下 你這項目我20%流入跟流出的就是只有這20%裡面這個本來就是立法院我們要求人家這樣子的"},{"start":10910.206,"end":10915.991,"text":"行政部門 你要做事情 你要開支 有存的 就存這幾十% 流入流出 沒人要扯回去幾十%那我們現在又這樣的一個規定裡面 因為一個個案其實就會把過去會顛覆掉整個預算163條所謂流用的一個規定所以大家想得太嚴肅了啦這一條不用這樣的一個規定喔"},{"start":10934.845,"end":10940.168,"text":"本來其實莊瑞雄委員已經講了,但本席因為副總召剛剛也講了,所以本席也要表達一下民進黨的立場"},{"start":10959.653,"end":10985.569,"text":"公務人員依法行政所以我們的預算法第63條規定20%的流用這個叫做法律那國民黨立場認為救責很重要其實本席完全同意啦我不覺得救責特別是這麼重大的這麼大筆的預算本席也覺得救責很重要但是其實如果救法論法比較好的方式應該我們要修預算法"},{"start":10986.673,"end":11011.419,"text":"因為監督很重要救責很重要其實不只在這個問題上面但是如同副總召剛剛所講的因為我們的重點如果今天我們在野的這些委員好朋友們如果你們能通過1.25兆的預算說實在話救責很重要特別要他在20%不是說不能用你要用之前要先來要留用之前要先來報告"},{"start":11012.785,"end":11040.495,"text":"其實我們可以為了這一個1.25兆本席也願意為了和諧然後來支持啦但是立場上我們還是跟副總長要說清楚啦就是國家給我們監督那如果我們覺得20%是不對的那朝野應該提預算法的修法譬如說改成15%改成10%或者改成說都不行以後要留用都要來立法院民脂民膏嘛所以這個才是邏輯的一貫性啦"},{"start":11041.175,"end":11068.867,"text":"但是如同剛剛副總召所講特別條例然後國民黨很重視所以如果能夠過1.25兆讓國家的安全得以守護得以保障其實對 我們也願意雖然我們的立場要說明清楚但我們也願意在院長的指示底下來同意好 謝謝蔡總召我們等一下回頭再來到金額部分好 我們現在進入國民黨團所提案的第八條第二階段特別條例的條文請大家放到第38頁"},{"start":11078.271,"end":11098.905,"text":"我們第八條條我們就先保留我們現在進入最後一條條文了行政院提案的第七條台灣民眾黨團提案的第八條國民黨團提案的第九條有關私刑期間這一點大家意見似乎不太一致我們請各黨團來發言首先我們請國防部簡單扼要說明 謝謝"},{"start":11103.01,"end":11108.871,"text":"廣布提出8年依照2500億,按照我們能夠籌獲的期限分攤到8年,一年大概1560億左右大概是這樣子預算的規模分散在8年的期間在編制的過程"},{"start":11129.81,"end":11146.785,"text":"在編制相關的預算過程當中,都考慮到相關我們籌貨所需要的時間以及交易的期程等等所以希望大家能夠支持,就是八年的期間好的,謝謝台灣民眾黨團也有提案,請表達意見"},{"start":11149.98,"end":11166.748,"text":"我們的一個內容是我們的第八條我們原則上跟我們行政院環部的提案是一樣最重要的差異就是本條例及其特別預算施行期滿"},{"start":11167.848,"end":11187.745,"text":"未及執行部門必要時我們是得經立法院同意延長之行政院的院版是必要時得經行政院核定延長那我們就是立法院 法院同意好 謝謝國民黨團對台灣民眾黨團所提的經立法院延長到122年有沒有意見要表達"},{"start":11196.638,"end":11224.97,"text":"沒有意見我們就同意台灣民眾黨團的話我們就確定了謝謝院長我們還是要特別強調啊這個國防部顧部長啊一直在講啊因為我們也靜靜聽了兩個多小時顧部長不斷強調啊會來不及會來不及啊竟然這麼急迫那怎麼會我們通過了以後用這麼長的時間去買"},{"start":11229.592,"end":11255.222,"text":"所以我們在這裡是建議啦是建議啦應該應該總統任期到2028年所以117年我們已經到12月到12月應該而且特別我要把我很少引用賴總統講的話2027台海救危機啊所以要迫切的趕快通過這個條例啊"},{"start":11256.994,"end":11284.153,"text":"那我們總不能說在123年武器台來那怎麼面對116年的太海危機所以這也是蠻耐人尋味的事情所以那既然有這麼迫切應該是我們也這麼急的來審查甚至我這裡再回應一下這個顧部長剛剛所提要說會來不及我們就把立法院實際發生的狀況"},{"start":11288.258,"end":11312.197,"text":"當113億美金的第一批發價書進來的時候立法院立刻三黨同時簽字授權國防部副部長直接跟美國政府簽約在條例還沒有制定以前預算沒有編列時間先授權你來做對美國的直接的簽署只要有明確的發價書"},{"start":11313.697,"end":11342.236,"text":"我們就會授權來簽署而且這是已經剛剛執行完畢所以所有關於時間上來不及的問題我想啊這個應該是有相當的誤會啊因為在看到這個期程啊到一百二十二年跟我們剛剛從兩年討論到現在都很急迫都很急迫然後最後發現是一百二十二年一百二十二年31號所以啊"},{"start":11343.877,"end":11357.167,"text":"本席在這裡 但是我還是回到原來那句老話我尊重主席的才是我想簡單回應一下 因為剛剛國民黨委員有講到說如果國防自我這麼重要 為什麼是過去沒做好嗎那無人機這麼重要 年度國防運送為什麼沒有放"},{"start":11368.795,"end":11390.026,"text":"還有這些武器過去都有買為什麼是現在突然有系統需求我簡單講一般軟硬體每年都會常態性的採購了那同時幾年也都會大升級更何況國際情勢的變化國防科技的日新月異那國防部已經告訴大家這個站立的整件事持續性的工程"},{"start":11390.606,"end":11409.422,"text":"所以要讓敵方攻台時間他的準備不斷延後所以我們想國防部不管誰當部長這整個對國防的維持讓敵方不敢攻台是重要的所以必須要多年期除了台灣之外歐洲日本很多的國家都在這麼做"},{"start":11410.103,"end":11432.414,"text":"好 謝謝范議員 那國安部我們現在這個我們就照台灣民眾黨團的版本通過那就是本條例 就是說因為這個是執行期限這執行期限包括比如說現在已經公開了海馬斯多觀火箭飛彈系統82套的部分執行的期限它交易的期程都要 台灣民眾黨團跟國安部一樣啊"},{"start":11433.755,"end":11459.973,"text":"對啊 我只在說明這是在講整個執行的期限不再講我們什麼時候簽署發價的期限好的好的那各位黨團如果同意的話我們這個就叫台灣民眾黨團所提的版本第八條條例後面就是經立法院同意延長之好不好好 我們現在休息一下回過頭再來探討保留的四條條文大家辛苦了我們休息一下"},{"start":11467.597,"end":11467.859,"text":"阿斯修錫"},{"start":12326.9,"end":12355.425,"text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐各位列席官員也請坐我們繼續開會我想要跟各黨團幹部報告一下也跟今天列席的官員報告一下我們本案已經經過充分的溝通還有四條保留的條文包括項目以及經費那我想各黨團之間在這個兩個重大問題上顯然沒有辦法達成共識我希望各位黨團能夠繼續保持溝通我們下星期一下午"},{"start":12357.229,"end":12371.534,"text":"兩點半我們繼續召開朝野協商要拜託各位黨團幹部能夠如期參加也謝謝國安部顧部長跟各位列席的官員我們今天我們就下禮拜一下午兩點半繼續開會現在散會"}]}},{"id":"168793","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168793","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be54422edcc3c7a6b7da976e07bf52eec0dd49d3cfaf5c3773194d23f4da59ad76bcb95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:09:10 - 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我們請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":13.422,"end":36.551,"text":"好 邱委員好部長好 部長我們談判代表鄭麗君2月12日跟美國簽下這個ART一直以來我們一再要求不可以拿我們的食安來當作交換的籌碼但是現在看起來經貿辦談回來的內容跟當初行政院開記者會喝奶茶的那個傳達給大家的那種感覺差很多就拿馬鈴薯來講"},{"start":38.973,"end":63.348,"text":"2026年1月21號農業部發布預告準備要放寬美國馬鈴薯那2026年的2月6日正式公告修正農售防治地1151881353號那在2月12號在簽訂ART之前農業部拿馬鈴薯去試好那我們衛福部最先拿什麼是拿農藥來跟他們談嗎"},{"start":66.009,"end":83.275,"text":"跟委員說明剛剛我一再的提到對馬鈴薯的檢驗程序標準都沒有改變啦我們沒有改變我們一樣是這個需要抽驗2到10%以前是有發現發芽就整批退回啦那現在是農業部這邊講是有發現這個發芽是拿來丟掉丟掉然後再送然後你們再抽驗嘛對你們是抽驗的2到10%嘛對沒錯嘛那當然"},{"start":95.499,"end":120.24,"text":"這個部分 呃 院長講的那個足科來檢查那是不可能的事情嘛所以我們檢驗不會用足科檢驗因為這一批如果驗到有人就整批就退了一顆一顆你如果要用整顆來 這個每一顆來檢查的話你一年要花上億元的幾千萬到上億元的這個人工成本費啊對跟我們說明我們這一批齁 只要驗到一顆超標"},{"start":121.101,"end":138.531,"text":"那這一批就會整個把它銷毀或退運所以不需要一顆一顆驗你們比這個農業部更早金茂幫你去談答應美國兩年內要大規模放寬農藥標準MTE說報告說你們答應如果台灣沒訂定農業產業標準就採納美國標準或CODES的國際標準那114年3月11號公告32種100項徵休"},{"start":150.778,"end":174.113,"text":"真修訂這個阿納寧等這個32種農藥於100項農作物資殘留容許量皆歸美方出國的這個要求你們就做了修改那114年11月26號公告15種78項包含梨果這個柑橘玉米及米類同步修正動物農藥產品的標準那115年"},{"start":178.075,"end":201.686,"text":"1月9號草案預告38種174項涉及茶、咖啡、堅果、羽衣、感染等預計在2026年第二季生效那總共約含85種352項持續向美國及國際標準來接軌所以魏福布早在川普放話之前就知道一定會拿實案來交換嗎"},{"start":203.264,"end":230.587,"text":"應該不是這麼說就是說在國際貿易上大家都是採相同的標準以前都沒有做這個標準所以過去我們就會產生很多跟人家的爭議那我們蔡英文總統的時候就沒有發生這個問題為什麼我們現在要做這個事情應該是我們一直逐步逐步只是說有時候我們的速度不夠快你修的這些80%都是進口商外商的申請不是增加項目就是增加這個劑量美國還要你們開放多少"},{"start":232.08,"end":254.008,"text":"我們的標準上就是盡量來跟國際除了有特別的考量不然的話就跟國際標準一樣你3月5號簽完約不到一個月賴總統就宣布說要停侃要價三年那3月31號美國發布MTE報告的時候稱讚台灣在要價透明度上有正面的發展這證明了什麼"},{"start":255.909,"end":275.427,"text":"暫停藥價調查三年表面上是為了韌性事實上還是在為這個按照美國的意思來做這兩個是沒有關係那為什麼怎麼那麼剛好呢應該砍的是這樣這個藥價呢其實我們很多這個砍到的也是我們自己國產或者是學名藥這個藥價在調整上主要是因為這幾年"},{"start":280.53,"end":296.776,"text":"這個國際的那個原物料上漲的厲害那我們的要價調查呢都是前一年根據要價調查的結果來調整所以經常會發生說後面發生這個成本上升的時候你看啊美國要我們開放牛脂跟牛血的進口牛肋部也開放了"},{"start":297.176,"end":324.518,"text":"ART協定裡面台灣承諾不採取任何與WOAH指引不一致的措施因此將移除某些美牛的產品禁令也會移除繁重的邊境檢查程序現在我們又從邊境來開門那MTE報告上面說台灣答應開放牛角肉新甘盛那每個來季的容許值是多少"},{"start":327.383,"end":330.426,"text":"我們目前是豬肝是0.04ppm牛如果是CODES的標準的話牛肝牛腎都是0.04ppm 一個是0.09ppm"},{"start":348.678,"end":361.917,"text":"因為我發現啦 我們發現就是說台灣承諾所有的這樣漏類的產品的萊克多巴胺也好或者是這個對齊我們Codex的這個標準你們所謂的科技標準 國際標準就是拿我們人民的身體來做試藥嘛"},{"start":363.393,"end":375.718,"text":"不會啦 這個一定都是按照國際然後也經過我們國內的健康風險評估才會做這個決定中止對美牛內臟蛇 鯨 睾丸等的這個竹箱檢查與解凍檢查以後美國牛肉進來 台灣的海關只能看大包裝不能細查 是這個意思嗎"},{"start":384.301,"end":406.143,"text":"不是 因為我們過去已經查過非常的量很大都沒有超出這個標準所以按照我們過去的標準的做法是應該調降風險等級也就是調降它的抽驗很多微生物跟農藥殘留在肉品解凍後才能準確的取樣化驗你現在它沒有解凍你要怎麼化驗"},{"start":407.701,"end":434.523,"text":"呃 您說的是 那個美國你會進來啊它只能看大包裝啊 它不能拆啊 不能細查啊我們過去的做法的話 都是要對這種生鮮的話 我們都是先做聚結然後在一個地方 讓它先出關放在一個地方 聚結在一個地方啊等我們解凍驗完之後 才放行所以過去都是這個做法但是現在沒有啊 現在它就連解凍都不行啊"},{"start":435.826,"end":456.437,"text":"解凍 沒有 就是我們抽菸的部分我們去解凍嘛那它要冷凍的部分我們會用一個拒絕的方式先放行到一個地點但是不能夠不能夠銷售還是放在那裡等我們的檢驗出來之後你看ART簽訂的內容就是台灣不得再允許該設施開始出口至台灣領土前要求對FS"},{"start":458.138,"end":468.245,"text":"FSIS的名錄中的設施進行視察或審計以前我們要開放美牛會派員去美國實地看工廠這條規定台灣這個不得去現場看這樣也可以答應啊沒有"},{"start":473.248,"end":493.374,"text":"我們還是要經過系統性查核這個國家還是要經過系統性查核然後我們還是有這個常規性Routine的查場所以這個是都有的還有一個很誇張本協定生效後六個月內台灣應完成所有的行政程序已承認美國所設立的非洲豬瘟的保護區"},{"start":494.834,"end":513.774,"text":"使來自非疫區的美國豬肉及豬肉產品能夠進口以前如果美國某個地方發生非洲豬瘟那台灣可以主張全美皆為疫區來禁止進口保護本土的產業但這個協定生效以後只要說只要美國說這個州沒事你其他的都得繼續買"},{"start":515.151,"end":525.715,"text":"那我們要怎麼防疫呢根本說明因為其實美國一個州喔都比台灣的整個面積還大啦所以過去用這個範圍那麼大其實也超出這個美國的要求嘛對不對這個剛剛經理委員有講到這個ART有沒有用我們還不知道現在知道說如果讓這份協議生效我們以後就沒有選擇權全部都是美國說了算"},{"start":539.42,"end":558.984,"text":"不會不會不會 我們還是具有最後的決定權國人的健康我們還是會嚴格把關啦我希望部長你還是要以良心來做這個絕對的絕對的 這個男人的健康我們都是排在第一位好啦 謝謝部長好 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝邱正軍委員發言 接下來請廖委員"}]}},{"id":"168792","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168792","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be544211b9a8776cd36bd76726ceb1fc879916d3cfaf5c3773194d23f4da59ad76bcb95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:23:57 - 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邊境進來邊境的話我們沒有百分之百邊境做不到啦那個那個 為何不能來莊市長做得到嗎依照規定我們是抽驗就是驗百分之二 百分之四如果不合格全部退是不是對 或者消毀是不是對 退役或消毀來 莊市長"},{"start":76.213,"end":101.549,"text":"請問你海關邊境進來的有多少人?海關多少人?可以檢驗馬鈴薯的多少人?人數是吧?我們沒有專門為這個設定一個專門的團隊啦我只知道八十幾個人啦你們做得到嗎?儲物科這樣檢驗做得到嗎?全部我們加起來就是在運用人力大概一百多人啦是啊這個你知道進來有幾個來 農業部的長官來來來"},{"start":106.626,"end":131.525,"text":"我們進來一批多少?幾顆?不是一批,現在一年的話是兩萬七千噸幾顆?幾量?幾量?一顆大概三百公克所以幾個?一櫃的話二十五公噸兩百幾顆?進口的量喔?一萬噸的話是三千三百三十三萬顆三千三百多萬顆?對,二點七萬噸的話將近一億顆"},{"start":135.548,"end":152.616,"text":"一億顆,不只一顆,我算一塊五億顆喔一億啦,大概一億一億顆,一億顆你打下去撿,怎麼做不到啦不是啦,因為院長的意思是在加工廠裡面是逐批、逐貴、逐顆啦那個是在加工廠裡面我們做我講的是,因為他給人家感覺是邊境管理啦"},{"start":155.137,"end":171.126,"text":"冰淨的話我們如果驗到不行就整退整退就退了所以這個就很明顯的他這個東西不知道腦子發熱了說可以足科去檢驗了足科去檢驗然後然後可以的壞的就把它退掉哪裡有這樣子是整必退啦"},{"start":172.606,"end":196.094,"text":"現在就是這樣子了整逼退了人民的食安遠高於沒有任何的政治利益可以來交換這個請兩位長官要把守這個這個某種程度等於農業部跟衛福部打臉行政院的院長的講法好 兩位請回我請教財政部的次長 阮次長"},{"start":200.579,"end":200.8,"text":"現在因為中東戰火"},{"start":205.646,"end":233.166,"text":"一天數電 到底是要停我不停我 要停止封鎖不停止封鎖不知道變化太大了所以就有人想到說今年的報稅能不能夠延後一個月報稅可不可以跟委員報告我們去年是因為美國宣布我們有一個對等關稅32%所以那時候為了考慮到民間的需求所以我們是有展延一個月"},{"start":234.006,"end":243.661,"text":"但是今年到目前為止,我們現在股市已經上了三萬七了所以整個來講,股市非常穩健,所以目前是沒有這樣的規劃"},{"start":248.092,"end":271.413,"text":"沒有這樣規劃 去想一下喔 過兩天你可能就重溫了喔總之請人家一問的話 院長一答應你就乖乖答應喔這你們應該想好喔 然後人家一問問你啦你是管這個國庫的喔 財政部這次取得國票的經營權老實講這是一個 全世界都是"},{"start":272.734,"end":282.828,"text":"工轉民啦 沒有民轉工啦這是開世界潮流的倒車啦齁只有一個 也要變成第九家的光谷航庫喔是吧真的嗎 委員的意思是"},{"start":287.227,"end":294.011,"text":"你回答是不是嘛 第九家嘛目前當然 因為還沒改選完嘛改選完就變第九家嘛改選完以後要看改選出來的結果他想要這麼小的一個size這麼小的一個國票金"},{"start":307.984,"end":333.048,"text":"你為什麼要併他只有一個原因我再猜了只有一個理由嘛你要推動公共併嘛結果以後他要併到我的公共銀行裡面因為現在民間銀行的金空越來越大越來越大我也要有競爭力所以我想辦法我也提升我的公共販公共的競爭力才有道理不然的話我實在想不出道理為什麼要推這個東西啊"},{"start":333.368,"end":353.418,"text":"其實跟委員報告,其實最主要是國票清,那麼這個二十幾年來,內鬥不斷內鬥跟你有關的,那個民主的大使要跟你有關的公股的,潘公股一直都在裡面,可是一直沒有辦法解決這方面的問題內鬥就多了,內鬥就多了,何時才有,你就揭露"},{"start":357.96,"end":380.736,"text":"沒有講真話 市長 你在這裡沒有講真話我們這個是為了要整頓這個 整頓國安金整頓國安金 哇 浩偉大你怎麼可以這個長臂拐斜的拐到民間 這個全世界自從蘇聯解體以後 全世界就一股公變成民的熱潮"},{"start":382.062,"end":393.178,"text":"全世界都是名誉 宮古的 韓國的變成名誉化比較多而不是像現在是開倒車所以只有一個原因啦 我猜啦"},{"start":394.181,"end":414.667,"text":"你準備要推動 進一步的推動公共病目前是沒有這樣的規劃我現在跟委員報告我們現在會介入這個案子因為老實講 國票監控是我們現在所有監控裡面最少的那我們要介入 其實最主要就是"},{"start":420.229,"end":437.666,"text":"市長你今天人蠻力 你今天都言不由衷啦我這個沒有時間問你 下次再問你這一題今天叫言不由衷 滿口胡話啦請你回答我們請一下陳主席長請一下陳主席長跟沈機長一起沈機長"},{"start":442.916,"end":446.481,"text":"2031年人均GDP要高出日本韓國一萬塊我們的主計總數平均薪資四萬八"},{"start":463.904,"end":486.404,"text":"請問主席長平均是四萬八六成以上的領不到平均薪資啦現在景氣是都集中在AI概念股你知不知道如果今天我們股票說剛才講了財政部長說一直漲很熱三萬七、三萬八如果把台積電抽掉"},{"start":487.325,"end":502.283,"text":"有人給他算一算啦如果把台積電今天沒有台積電我們大概就兩萬億我們就兩萬一千點我們就兩萬一千點所以這是暴力的台灣非常嚴重的經濟荷蘭病"},{"start":503.786,"end":530.948,"text":"我查了我們現在今年1月到3月上市股票漲幅大於高盤大盤的211家11%左右上櫃116家8.33左右上市櫃公司總共有1933家換言之現在台灣的百姓是只要你的資金都沒有去買股票的話你就相對吃貧乎了"},{"start":532.489,"end":553.661,"text":"如果你要不要買到AI概念股,那你也一樣就變這個樣子,所以我們是嚴重的扭曲哇好看,非常好看啊,這個叫什麼?賺的指數賠了股價,沒賺錢啊主計長,我們再看下一張,我再給主計長看一下有沒有機構發佈說明經濟信心"},{"start":559.707,"end":564.489,"text":"警機長王下滑 消費業下滑 股市投資下滑37%認為今年的GDP超過7%因為你講7點 主計長說過7點多吧超過7%的37%60%認為CPI要超過2%這個數字"},{"start":579.969,"end":595.342,"text":"是老百姓普遍人心聲不到四成的人認同你的講法說我們今年GDP會高於七八即便高於七八也都是AI概念股台積電如果抽掉只剩兩萬億你有沒有回應一下"},{"start":597.543,"end":624.625,"text":"對就是AI概念AI的部分的確佔重要的部分但是其他它也帶動其他沒有啊它的沒有啊對所以它譬如說它上游的原料啊那擴充產能廠房增添設備沒有啊帶動建材還有金屬這些的一個成長所以它不是只有AI概念回到上一章來回到上一章你就可以看嘛"},{"start":625.365,"end":634.573,"text":"你這個大盤,這大盤就是台積電撐起來的大一大盤的只有11%嘛上櫃的大一大盤的只有8.38%就很明顯加起來不到兩成啊那我要上升喔,我們沒有所謂荷蘭病啦因為荷蘭病它只是集中一個產業但是我們其實相對的產業其他其他傳統產業也有上升只是它上升的弧度還有歪的一個那麼大"},{"start":652.108,"end":656.432,"text":"你有糾正過我要替台北市政府降花回來村的水庫長期被台電壓榨他回水庫過去四年一度店賣給台電1.5到2塊錢左右"},{"start":677.096,"end":702.555,"text":"光電4塊到5塊 風電有時候高達7塊錢一年它賣了2億度電了所以等於我們一年來講的話台北市政府就被台電坑了4億了檢察院糾正過你們糾正說收購匯率偏低現在還偏低 全部檢察院對這個事情怎麼處理"},{"start":703.646,"end":708.37,"text":"因為整個是綠電喔因為它水利發電是綠電綠電光電4到5塊風電有時候高達7塊5到7塊但是為什麼翡翠水庫就給它收1塊半到2塊錢而已過去4年"},{"start":718.912,"end":729.443,"text":"這一個部分是我們審計部去查的有這樣的一個現象就我們後來監察院在看我們的審計報告的時候他會把這個問題他們再調查一次所以他們提出糾正這個我們會繼續追蹤"},{"start":744.256,"end":764.46,"text":"我們會追蹤怎麼樣是一個合理處理的方案把一個事情 把它合理就是台電加價 回居石庫加價吧這個是我們同仁努力的最後一個 現在什麼高德地圖在台灣很老用的就是一個APP"},{"start":766.721,"end":786.261,"text":"裡面就是放這個讓紅利的描述很準的結果說這個可能有治安的問題可能要什麼 一個非紅供應鏈我就問你 請問非紅供應鏈是不是在審計部的審計範圍裡面要查所有的零組件通通不可以佔到大陸一點點"},{"start":787.678,"end":812.344,"text":"這一個部分我們要看國家的規定國家的規定如果都是說不可以為什麼會規定不可以是不是合理我們也會進行了解所以這一個部分就是我們審計在做的每次審計不容易做到一個舉例我們要發展無人機無人機全世界最大戰火力是大中歐大陸"},{"start":813.7,"end":832.502,"text":"百分之七十關鍵民主圈也來自於中國大陸所以你阿拉伯阿拉伯你看剛才講高德地圖這個我們不是跟大陸買的啊是跟荷蘭買的啊可是呢它裡面有一點東西是大陸的啊就變成這樣沒來沒去都會賭到勒"},{"start":834.221,"end":859.802,"text":"所以這個規定啊 政府的規定啊 我們會注意到它規定的一個造成 是不是普遍的不適合我們會提出我們軍人穿的衣服 對所以我們也在查 你的投標稀珠啊 是怎麼規定的去好好去落實 如果做不到也要讓行政部門知道 這個其實"},{"start":860.683,"end":861.326,"text":"不容易做到了好 我們謝謝 後續的再請用書面回覆"}]}},{"id":"168791","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168791","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442d8a41ef4bbdc0d425ab56d7e35fc4ecfd3cfaf5c3773194deb30719eee88c9bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:19:29 - 10:36:18","影片長度":"00:16:49","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-3院會付委）\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-7院會付委）\n（四）委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「民法第一千零三十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-6院會付委）\n（八）委員林月琴等22人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-9院會付委）\n（十二）委員黃捷等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員范雲等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第（十八）、（十九）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（二）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（四）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（五）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（六）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（七）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n【第（七）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（八）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-23","start_time":"2026-04-23T10:19:29+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-23T10:36:18+08:00","duration":1009,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-5-36-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.523468750000001,"end":10.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.763468750000001,"end":12.383468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.974093750000002,"end":15.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.37846875,"end":17.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.25596875,"end":20.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.88846875,"end":24.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.00596875,"end":26.929718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.250343750000003,"end":33.915968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.713468750000004,"end":41.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.603468750000005,"end":36.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.93659375,"end":39.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.91034375,"end":47.618468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.049093750000004,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.49159375,"end":50.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.91346875,"end":50.453468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.53784375,"end":50.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.62221875,"end":50.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.65596875,"end":50.892218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.94284375,"end":55.212218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.854093750000004,"end":61.945343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.55284375,"end":76.67721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.95659375000001,"end":74.78721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.31846875000001,"end":77.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.40659375,"end":94.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.07096875,"end":104.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.74034375000001,"end":108.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.79034375,"end":111.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.35096875,"end":117.54846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.13909375,"end":124.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.45034375,"end":131.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.92596875,"end":133.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.93409375000002,"end":133.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.95096875000002,"end":136.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.35596875000002,"end":135.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.83659375000002,"end":152.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.39534375000002,"end":157.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.12471875,"end":174.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.55909375000002,"end":158.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.77596875,"end":178.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.96534375000002,"end":180.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.91846875000002,"end":181.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.79596875000001,"end":183.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.04034375,"end":198.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":184.40721875,"end":186.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.72596875000002,"end":197.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.31221875,"end":203.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.87721875000003,"end":218.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.51346875000002,"end":209.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.97284375,"end":210.15846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.91659375,"end":220.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.38471875000002,"end":226.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.99534375000002,"end":230.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.93159375000002,"end":239.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.57159375,"e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謝謝主席在這裡有請政部長先請政部長好 有請政部長委員好部長好 我們好久不見了上個禮拜四本席這個安排的考察怎麼可以臨時爽約呢"},{"start":27.604,"end":41.72,"text":"這不是因為那個有那個其他的會議要做我想的臨時爽約就是我們都已經全部安排好了你看連我們的零千級委員都買了那個車票提前都到了"},{"start":42.99,"end":61.505,"text":"花蓮然後你這樣臨時爽我們約喔真的不應該啦好不好不應該啦我沒有同意啊重點是我沒有同意好了而且呢這個基本上我們的當時安排已經是一個禮拜之前就已經講了對然後你是呢前一刻"},{"start":62.646,"end":72.177,"text":"我們要這個第二天要去考察然後你前一刻五點鐘才告訴我們說你要請假不能去對不對這樣的話基本上其實我跟妳講部長妳在這邊跟我們道歉我也就接受了對不對"},{"start":80.598,"end":107.787,"text":"現在竟然可以這麼不尊重立法院召委所安排的這個考察行程不過就是說我們上次的考察沒成功可是沒有成行我們基本上會繼續再排考察我希望就是部長以後要尊重立法院司委會這裡的這個安排我們不是不盡人情但是這樣臨時耍我們基本上是很不應該的那接下來我想請教就是我們法務部的"},{"start":109.257,"end":130.015,"text":"這個正次黃謀信最近他已經被行政院提名要當中選會的委員我想請教部長在過去有沒有這個案例啊有沒有這個前例就是我們法務部的次長及以上人物曾經有被戒掉曾經有去當中選會的委員"},{"start":132.557,"end":149.805,"text":"這個是沒有潛力沒有潛力 那為什麼會有這樣的一個安排我想這個是一個堅韌的委員我想這個對我們法務部的業務推動應該是沒有影響而且提供法律上的一個專業的意見"},{"start":152.495,"end":171.253,"text":"所以認為說他這樣子的這個去擔任中選會委員不會影響到法務部的業務嗎因為這次請那個我們黃某信次長因為他法學的我想委員都很清楚他法學非常的精湛那而且他沒有黨派他沒有黨派的"},{"start":173.14,"end":177.884,"text":"那當然 如果說 蔡經輝檢察官你說要去調查他們有屬於黨籍嗎他現在不是檢察官 他現在是次長是 我知道 對對對那我想他是因為他檢察官出身嘛我意思是講 他其實去看這個之後可能要不要也請你們提供給我們資料就是現在法務部"},{"start":190.393,"end":215.734,"text":"底下所屬的檢察官然後呢有多少人是有正式加入黨政黨的我們現在應該基本上沒有嘛現在那個法官法我們是完全是不能參加政黨的所以這個沒有黨派的黃謀欣市長他肯定是沒有加入任何的這個政黨不過我這邊是要講的一個議題就是說是因為呢今天這個新聞裡面喔也有在講國安會的這個"},{"start":218.997,"end":227.025,"text":"就是國安會的諮詢委員準備要找一位檢察官去當法務助理那當然這個新聞報導之後就輿論嘩然這個為什麼"},{"start":235.56,"end":251.113,"text":"要再調派一位檢察官去這個國安會可是呢本席其實有看到法務部所發布的新聞稿那麼事實上好像是不是長久以來就是法務部都會借調一位檢察官"},{"start":251.793,"end":271.356,"text":"去派駐在國安會呢?沒有這回事我們檢查全部就調辦室就是在法務部調辦室但是因為我們大概每個都有分工就譬如說有些是打詐的有些是毒品的有些是附幼的有些是國安的因為法務部也是屬於國安的一個安全體系的一環"},{"start":271.997,"end":292.629,"text":"就像我們那個國家安全法啦反滲透法啦還有一些的包括我們偵辦的一些的譬如說那個營業秘密法或者是一些像某些科技公司的那些所以這些要去我們是扮演一個協助各機關在有國安的安全體系的我想今天大家比較關注的那個焦點就是說是那這個戒掉調辦的這位"},{"start":302.434,"end":309.896,"text":"檢察官那他到底他的辦公地點在哪裡在保護部這個我請檢察司副司長來答這個有在規劃來請告訴我們報告委員我們尋程序還有因為是我們的業務需求所以針調那個甲官到部裡面來辦事那我們有規劃他的那個辦公的空間所以那位甲官過來的時候辦公室是在甲四的辦公室所以他的正式的名稱叫做什麼他的職務的名稱調辦事主任甲官"},{"start":328.942,"end":357.62,"text":"是叫法務部檢察司國安會的辦事不是就是介調法務部的調辦事主任檢察官介調法務部的調辦事主任檢察官所以他的辦公地點並不是在國安會但是他的業務就是去支援國安會不是他的業務是跟國安法制相關的不是資源是國安法制就負責比方說國安的相關的法制啊或者是像經濟間諜罪啊然後就是海蘭七法軍事審判法就是跟國安相關的法制內容"},{"start":358.817,"end":364.747,"text":"好那麼如果說是這樣子的情況之下的話我希望就是法務部也要在"},{"start":365.653,"end":392.028,"text":"你們檢察官的體系裡面要把這件事情講清楚因為這個事情看起來是從你們檢察官的內網裡面所提報這個新聞而且看起來大部分的檢察官也許並不知道否則的話怎麼會有說是去當國安會諮詢委員林志傑的法務助理那這樣子的一個情況事實上是就代表說可能法務部自己內部的溝通也出現了問題"},{"start":393.709,"end":409.184,"text":"他不知道說到底為什麼會有這樣的一個處理的方式所以這部分其實我們是這部分是有公告的喔是有公告的寫得非常清楚那我想這部分所以我們正式發信法寫得非常的詳細非常詳細我想說這個委員有手上有我們的新聞稿"},{"start":414.709,"end":436.046,"text":"那當然就從這個議題裡面呢接下來我要延伸的就是說是我也希望能夠了解到底現在這個檢察署有多少的人力是借調或是借調到各個機關或是借調到法務部的人力也就是調辦室的檢察官有多少那所以也請法務部你們可以在一個禮拜之內可以提供給我相關的資訊過去五年"},{"start":438.508,"end":459.048,"text":"調辦室檢察官有多少要調任的期間以及分佈在哪些單位然後法務部有沒有派駐在國安會的人員名冊如果按照高部長講似乎是沒有派駐在國安會的人員名冊好那麼最後我要在這個議題上面我想要講就是說因為基層的地檢署基本上大家工作量都非常大"},{"start":460.008,"end":488.94,"text":"然後大多數的檢察官都過勞所以大家也會去思考就是說到底現在這個調辦室的制度檢察官借調的制度到底合不合理那我也希望法務部這邊能夠通盤檢討畢竟在早期這個段宜康民進黨的立委段宜康他當時曾經也批評過那時候的時任法務部部長羅英雪說檢察官的借調制度混亂那麼也批評就是說不可以把"},{"start":490.121,"end":501.214,"text":"這個就政府執政黨不可以把檢察官當成是法務助理這樣會糟蹋司法官那本席希望說鄭部長你可以把這個議題好好的去這個檢討好不好"},{"start":504.646,"end":525.691,"text":"我想這個謝謝委員的一個指導那我想包括司法院我們都是因為這個是包括司法的這是相當的一個專業那的確是要有調辦事譬如說涉犯調法官去辦事因為有些是法案的問題這部分檢察官也是法案的問題這個都非常的專業高度的專業那這部分的話就麻煩請你給我一個資料好那這部分我們再來提供資料我們之後有機會的話我們再來討論那接下來我可能還要再請那個中廳長"},{"start":537.121,"end":563.361,"text":"這個本席基本上有注意到這次其實司法院對於行政院的這個民法親屬偏的修正案其實有很多的不同的意見包含像1052條的分居的定義1057條的贍養費還有撫養義務102條的提出財產清測等等這些規定那麼有些是認為說你們的意見有些是認為說是跌床架屋目前的規定其實已經夠處理了所以草案還有很多要討論的地方"},{"start":563.841,"end":579.299,"text":"那接下来本期想要请教的两个问题第一个就是说在目前的夫妻财产揭露义务的执行上面行政院版基本上他的夫妻财产揭露义务主要是还是focus比较聚焦在所谓的传统的财产型的义务"},{"start":580.512,"end":604.217,"text":"那么可是我们知道现在的这个财产已经不限制于是传统的财产还包含所谓的虚拟财产所以对于虚拟财产的部分的未来是不是可以把它列为就是在财产清算上面必须要公开的项目以及在目前实务上面到底虚拟货币虚拟财产有没有列入剩余财产这个部分不晓得可以请中厅长来回答"},{"start":604.617,"end":620.743,"text":"像委員報告在我們實務家事法庭審判有關剩餘財產分配如果這種虛擬貨幣足以確認計算或請專家鑑定它的價值在實務一律都是列入可分配的財產"},{"start":621.983,"end":627.925,"text":"那至於說在法律上要不要增訂怎麼增訂那我們很尊重主管機關的一個增訂那可不可以請部長就是針對這個議題就是未來我們在夫妻揭露財產異物的這個財產在夫妻財產揭露異物之下我們要去"},{"start":641.91,"end":668.164,"text":"公開這個財產清澈是不是應該要放入虛擬資產你認為這部分是不是應該要加入因為這是一個新型態的一個財產的一個佈置嘛那我想這個我們沒有去排除虛擬資產因為虛擬資產還是財產包括我們那個財產申報都包括虛擬的資產是 但是就是說因為在這次法條上面沒有講得很清楚那這不就是這個在我們那個這個未來是不是可以在修正動力的時候立法說明來處理這個區塊"},{"start":670.345,"end":684.196,"text":"所以在立法說明裡面有加入這個虛擬財產嗎?可以加入那個立法說明裡面如果說你們也同意這個方向當然本席也可以提案提到時候提一個修正動議可以把虛擬財產也放入到就是為了要公開的財產計算裡面因為財產包括實體產業跟虛擬的資產嘛那這邊我們在立法說明這邊把它"},{"start":689.36,"end":693.823,"text":"那再明確化 讓我們這更沒有爭議最後一個議題我想就是針對所謂的分居這次其實司法院對於法務部所提案的有關於分居的規定也有不同的意見那目前行政院的法務部版本的徵定所謂的分居條款是五年之內要累計分居達三年才可以肅請離婚"},{"start":713.954,"end":717.979,"text":"那司法院的草案則是認為說要不分居就是連續不分居達三年而且在繼續狀態當中然後才可以肅請離婚那麼其實針對這個部分因為這也涉及到實務上的判斷的問題本席基本上是比較支持司法院的一個看法"},{"start":730.874,"end":757.237,"text":"那麼我也想了解就是說行政院的版本認為說這個分居五年之內累計分居達三年你們這個是到底是要去怎麼去定義怎麼去計算那個期間到底是指的是物理上的分開住還是說他只要主觀上面我沒有維持婚姻的義務我可能在同一個屋簷下但是是分房這樣就算是分居而且中間有時好時壞怎麼樣去累計那個三年的時間"},{"start":764.161,"end":780.61,"text":"其實我們在定義這五年內累積滿三年的時候我們是試圖建立一個客觀的標準這有參考德國因為德國他也是要有一個分開的推定前三年以上他就推定婚姻不能維持只是說我們更進一步因為我們是目標是要朝向破產主義讓他比較好證明"},{"start":783.351,"end":798.341,"text":"因為連續這個事情其實是比較難證明的反之他很容易被反正推翻所以我們用了比較對於婚姻裡面破綻維持上面比較能夠維護破綻主義精神不過事實上你剛剛講的話其實也涉及到舉證的問題可能到時候雙方當事人會有意見不一樣的地方接下來我想請教鍾廷長就是說在食物上面來講有沒有類似你們現在做的這個相關的食物的判決裡面"},{"start":811.249,"end":820.317,"text":"那麼有沒有類似這種對於累計計算分居的期間三年然後你就認為說這個其實已經構成報告委目前如果與這個破綻在舉證的時候通常這個律師雙方公訪難免有但是非常難舉證因為"},{"start":833.248,"end":848.184,"text":"有為子女而住在一起去可能是一個月兩個月有為工作有為其他就像剛剛說的分房所以最終這種訴訟最後都很難認定所以產生這個訴訟上的困擾跟律師舉證的困難"},{"start":850.726,"end":876.259,"text":"因為這也是本席認為說這其實在實務上可能會造成這個判斷上面的困難那這邊的話我本席也會有另外一個建議也可以請法務部去思考因為其實在歐美國家他們基本上有些會採取所謂登記制度分居的登記制度那法務部當時沒有去思考嘛譬如說像現在丹麥挪威等等這些國家他們會在網站上面先申請一個分居"},{"start":878.159,"end":899.266,"text":"有一個申請分居登記那分居期滿譬如說六個月或一年之後就可以正式的申請離婚那我覺得分居制度至少還有個客觀的這個第三人的一個公正的一個制度這樣的話未來在訴請裁判離婚的時候也比較有一個好的證明你們沒有往這方面去思考嗎這部分我請那個市長來好請市長 是"},{"start":906.888,"end":928.898,"text":"報告委員我們在這次明碼修正到底要不要放一個有關所謂的法定別具或是法定分具制度其實在研究小組是有討論過不過因為這部分意見非常分散沒辦法形成共識那因為這次我們的修法主要還是迫切的要因應我們限盤制還有C的要求所以這部分我們之後會再通盤檢討如果實際有成熟我們會再繼續研議"},{"start":929.738,"end":954.91,"text":"好 那我也想請中廳長司法院這邊的意見如果說是未來採取分居登記制度會不會對於你們要審理相關的裁判離婚的案件會更有幫助是 報告委員有關這樣一個登記制度是在外國的立法例我們在研究跟蒐集上還有專家諮詢都有論述跟我們法務部的陳述我們是一樣的但是如果從實務面的研究"},{"start":955.43,"end":983.766,"text":"它是如果我們建立制度的健全是在訴訟上是反而也是非常更有更有明確的一個裁判基礎但是呢我國民情的關係因為你去登記以後然後後面的一個分居常常會造成又有舉證上的一個歧義跟困擾所以這有待這個整合來研究看怎麼我們沒有反對也會尊重主管機關的意見謝謝"},{"start":984.827,"end":1006.752,"text":"因為這個本席基本上會認為說我們現在離婚結婚都採登記制度那麼如果說是分居未來能夠採登記制度的話可能也可以就是讓未來有相關的這個這個爭議案件的時候法院會更好處理這是本席的看法好的那今天本席質詢到這邊然後也謝謝主席寬容給我更多的時間來來詢答謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168790","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168790","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be544298df1e82bd2ad7a747e947452b276263d3cfaf5c3773194d620d634c767349af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:26:33 - 10:33:51","影片長度":"00:07:18","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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請陳主委陳主委 謝謝"},{"start":22.148,"end":43.995,"text":"各位在這2024年的時候Uber打算要用9.5億的美元併購了這個富豐達後來我們公平會特別就以限制競爭的不利益大於整體經濟的利益否決了這兩家的併購但是現在東南亞的外送平台龍頭"},{"start":45.856,"end":52.66,"text":"Global也宣布要以6億的美金來併購輻噴打雖然說它沒有在我們台灣落地但是你看起來它好像不會有限制競爭的情形可是Global它背後最大的股東就是Uber它佔的持股有13%所以如果說合併成功的話會不會就是Uber跟Global他們可能"},{"start":71.932,"end":96.08,"text":"就是這兩家公司啊他們最後會交叉持股跟相互的影響公司的決策最後會變成變相壟斷了台灣整個外送市場到時候他們聯合的行為你會防不勝防對不對委員關切這個問題我們在這個案子的審查過程當中我們會去注意而且會去要求業者配合我們調查事實上我們現在已經有要求他提供一些這方面的資料給我們參考所以我們會去觀察他的實質影響力"},{"start":99.761,"end":128.778,"text":"他實質影響力 除了說交叉持股這樣的一個現象以外基本上我們還需要更多的事證來證明他的確有透過這個實質的影響力來遂行所謂的限制競爭的行為因為這兩家公司最後的決策都是在他們手上所以影響力跟控制力你們要注意他們相關的事業影響力的地方我們會注意他相關的影響力但是因為事業的跨公司的持股這並不是法律禁止的所以我們要以這個理由來質疑他的結合 你必須要有"},{"start":129.138,"end":143.972,"text":"因為兩家公司都等於他自己的公司這決策的話就會影響整個控制 被控制控制力一定會 控制力有但是是不是控制力就會有影響力啊控制力就會拿來影響業務的現成對 控制力跟影響力所以你們要掌握這個關鍵的資料 是的 是的"},{"start":148.797,"end":151.441,"text":"那因為這國內部他在3月27號就已經向公平會提出了合併的這個申請那如果說他們沒有任何的缺失的話或者是"},{"start":160.646,"end":167.23,"text":"有沒有需要補件我目前是要要求他補件目前在補件喔那你們說還沒進入實質的審查還沒因為這個你們有那個延誤審查的這個檢科的紀錄喔之前 之前對啊之前Woober的時候你們就是有這種情形嘛那現在我們這麼說你們先進入實質審查如果有需要的話你們再叫他補件就好了"},{"start":182.398,"end":205.246,"text":"不然你就一直延宕下去因為這樣之前的話你延宕了六個月之久啊因為法律規定不能這樣子就是說你一定要是正式補件完成我們才可以算這個審查權可是你在公平法第十一條裡面就特別有講到啦那如果說他們需要補件的時候再可以補件就好因為這個公平法交易裡面這個十一條裡面有講說你最長是九十天的時間嘛是 是那個時間的計算是以補件完成來算"},{"start":206.866,"end":223.639,"text":"所以那你就不見試審查的話就一直延宕到審查還算90天我們不會審查延宕因為這個大家都非常關心啦是是是所以我希望你們會盡快審查我們會盡快八月底會不會完成這個我們沒辦法給一個確確的答案因為這個案子要經過委員會討論"},{"start":225.2,"end":250.918,"text":"所以補件完成可是你們期限就是90天啊沒有90天是從補件完成算所以在補件的時間我們是沒有期限的限制主委因為這整個齁這個外送平台的影響不只是這整個這個外送還有關係到勞動力是是這勞動力的影響還有這產業的發展跟我們食品的物流還有所有收費的定價等等這些都會影響所以大家都非常的關心尤其是我們的民眾消費者"},{"start":252.179,"end":280.571,"text":"還有外送平台的這個外送員他們都都關心著所以未來你如果說這些事情的話你一定要有橫向的溝通各部會包括勞動部都是啊之前勞動部都跳出來反對表示你沒有溝通好嘛所以你這是一定要跨部會溝通跟專家學者尤其是外送人員這點好不好我們會跟專家還有各部會之間相關的都要去來多做溝通盡快審查因為社會大眾大家都很關心喔那接下來就是說我們這個加盟電腦"},{"start":282.933,"end":297.002,"text":"這個連鎖加盟跟這個加盟商他們之間的訂定合約的時候有些資訊重要資訊沒有披露出來的話很多加盟商加盟之後的話反而是做一天虧一天這種情形都有來跟你們這個公平會來求助希望你們做這個審查跟給他們一個裁判但是我們公平會確實說在這個條款裡面沒有違反的這個25條的這個公平交易法尤其是個案"},{"start":311.371,"end":338.914,"text":"因為受傷害被影響的人不多所以算是個案並沒有影響交易的這個次序是不是這樣子因為我們25條有足以影響交易秩序所以它是一個效果的要件所以如果單純只是一家你不能說用個案啦這整個就會影響啊沒有如果說它檢舉的人你檢舉的家數很多這當然就會足以影響交易秩序嘛但是我們在實務上不處理的案子很多都是只有一家兩家"},{"start":340.055,"end":360.663,"text":"所以要很多家才會影響這件事情嗎也不是說很多家啦我們會綜合整個案子的嚴重程度來判斷但是就是如果單純只是契約上的糾紛而且家數只有一兩家原則上我們會把它定位是屬於民事糾紛不是 主委你要注意到的就是說你不能跟契約加盟商他們簽約還有品牌他們無故的揭露一些加盟店的一些資訊喔"},{"start":361.543,"end":385.23,"text":"這他們沒有揭露出來的話 像成本啊 或者是說他們上市或是免料繳的這些權利金等等 這些都算重要資訊他如果在合約裡面沒有揭露的話 就影響加盟商因為他們剛剛第一次去加盟的話 他們都沒有經驗的所以就需要你們公民會站出來跟他們協助幫忙所以不能因為一個個案 不能有很多家受傷害你們才站出來 可以的"},{"start":386.07,"end":412.41,"text":"就是說對於這個有品牌加盟的這些加盟商他們之間的資訊如果說不對等的情況之下你必須要出來更積極的有點作為好不好因為一樣還是受制於25條的要件不過我跟委員報告就是說我們在個案的審查裡面雖然加速是一個觀點是一個要件但是我們還會是實質判斷那個影響的部分所以只是因為過去我們加速大部分很多我們不處理的都是只有一家兩家那事實上影響的金額或是整個市場影響不大"},{"start":414.992,"end":433.663,"text":"那25條要求我們要影響多少家你們才會處理啊要影響多大的金額其實要從個案來判斷啦要從個案來判斷那我這邊大概理解大概是這樣子但是這不是個絕對的數字就是說我們從我們過去處理過的不是絕對的數字有人受傷害公平委員就要站出來好不好所以我們會按實質個案來判斷謝謝委員好 謝謝林委員"}]}},{"id":"168789","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168789","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be544248cb15940a5fb8c247e947452b276263d3cfaf5c3773194df94a74b1c6866ca55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:17:53 - 10:26:27","影片長度":"00:08:34","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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- 09:24:46","影片長度":"00:08:53","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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主委那您看到其實剛剛的那一頁裡面第二個才是真正的原廠維修的網站但是其實你從它的標裡頭你是看不出來的就算你點進去了以後"},{"start":91.972,"end":100.699,"text":"他其實還是會有很多這一些假的反饋告訴你說這個維修網站這個維修廠商其實做得很好"},{"start":101.727,"end":129.867,"text":"其實你是看不出來的我不曉得您大家還記不記得過去公平會曾經就這樣子的廣告不實或者是虛偽不實去做出裁把不過也很多年沒有再去罰過了所以像現在在很多的網路資訊AI資訊我們或者是說在Google的關鍵字裡頭其實就可以買到相關的這些廣告對於大多數的消費者來說其實造成了極大的困擾"},{"start":131.055,"end":152.222,"text":"因為他根本不知道哪一個是正的原廠維修我也不能講說不是原廠維修的都不好但是這個還是會有可能會出現詐騙或者是說在維修的品質上面良又不齊或者是誤導消費者的狀態這個是不是也能夠請公評會能夠主動的去調查了解"},{"start":152.902,"end":171.119,"text":"跟委員報告一下過去我們處分過的案子基本上都是他的廣告內容是不實的那目前之所以委員談到說目前好像很少這個案子主要就是說現在他已經不敢不實了但是他直接就打出了我們的現在執法原則就是說如果你的網頁上讓消費者可以去判斷有判斷的機會的話那原則上我們就不能說他不實"},{"start":174.722,"end":198.176,"text":"好那他怎麼樣判斷的機會來你看一下你可以看得出來這個網頁他到底是不是真正的原廠維修他的字體非常的小小到讓你其實看不清楚比如說在左邊的這一頁他的字體非原廠的他是放在上面這字體非常的小左邊這一頁呢他是放在最底下"},{"start":199.278,"end":222.697,"text":"他其實他的字體是非常的小我們過去處分過的案子對這種字體太小或是隱匿的我們會查啦這個我還是希望你們要去了解一下啦這個其實還是有很多的消費糾紛產生所以今天特別在藉由這個我們處理公平會預算的這個審查的時候來跟您提出這樣的一個好來那個主委您請回我請一下經濟部次長我們請次長"},{"start":230.68,"end":231.421,"text":"土石採取法"},{"start":248.163,"end":259.535,"text":"被這麼關心的提出來是因為在去年的時候發生了美濃大峽谷的事件那這個美濃大峽谷還被惡意的網友把它改成叫做邁銀大峽谷"},{"start":261.84,"end":280.089,"text":"高度的指控這跟我有關係喔那我想藉著這樣的一個機會也要讓大眾很清楚的知道這個土石採取我們目前的法則老實講已經無法規範行為人次長您同意我的看法嗎"},{"start":280.729,"end":306.389,"text":"是過去從97個案件裡面的裁法我們認為說只有行政法法是不夠的因為像委員的照片所示它其實是一個盈利的行為甚至還有不肖的業者來去回舔所謂的廢棄物砂石業者有盈利行為這個我們也不排斥但是非法採取砂石做盈利盜採然後這個"},{"start":310.012,"end":330.781,"text":"偷到垃圾偷到被棄物這已經是一個產業鏈了所以我們現在的裁罰可能只罰這個司機你根本是完全扣不到真正的幕後的那一個黑手所以我看很多的委員提出來的這些版本包括上線都"},{"start":331.741,"end":345.983,"text":"提高非常多啦本期的期按的這個上限大概是2500萬應該算是在所有的期按裡面算是最少的也有提到2億的啦 1億的啦不管你的上限提高到多少我認為整體的"},{"start":347.785,"end":363.951,"text":"這一個非法盜採砂石的這個產業鏈應該要去強力的去打擊他增加刑事責任甚至包括不只是行為人不只是卡車的司機沒入他的砂石車"},{"start":365.362,"end":387.89,"text":"甚至所有的行政罰則都應該一併採納您同意我的看法嗎是 完全同意啊剛委員所說的特別是有盈利的行為不管是它即便說它是最後是回舔這個廢棄物事實上也是盈利因為這些廢棄物就是它等於兩盒賺嘛它挖了砂石起來賣了砂石賺一批嘛"},{"start":388.47,"end":410.847,"text":"回填廢棄物 非法的廢棄物 回填以後又再賺一批嘛整個產業鏈也造成了現在全台灣有所謂的土方之亂這些過去的建築營建土方目前不知道要倒去哪裡 也沒有辦法處理所以我們除了去處理倒採砂石這件事情以外我覺得經濟部"},{"start":412.668,"end":431.611,"text":"跟國土署應該就整個產業鏈整個廢棄物的處理太陽模式應該要去做更詳細的研究評估土石採取法現在加重罰環我們應該要儘速通過但我不知道為什麼行政院拖這麼久"},{"start":432.537,"end":454.789,"text":"安委員所說的確實我們在過去一段時間我們不但是要遏止這個行為我們當然這個行為必須要回復整復是一個重要性的事情這邊有涉及到跨部會我們看到我們過去的時候這應該牽扯到國土署環境部跟你們經濟部在沙石的管理上面那行政院的版本什麼時候可以出來"},{"start":455.663,"end":482.129,"text":"我們希望在兩個禮拜內啊可以提出來兩個禮拜內是出行政院吧對對如果兩個禮拜內沒有辦法出行政院呢請陳金德提頭來見嗎沒有沒有沒有其實在這個部分我們大家的溝通的部分是針對於整戶的部分但是目前大家逐漸意見的收攏之中我們希望儘速的通過這個法規恢復我們這個環境景觀跟國土的安全"},{"start":482.349,"end":499.401,"text":"您過去擔任很長一段時間的水利署署長所以您對於在河川稻採砂石這些事情其實您都了然於心我覺得在很多的規範管理跟制度化更提升賀止犯罪產業鏈的出現的這一段"},{"start":501.063,"end":528.711,"text":"這個過程我希望你能夠多用一點心那我也希望行政院的版本能夠早日提出來我們今天可能主席會待會會逐條討論但是我覺得行政院版本如果不併進來的話我們真的不知道政府單位的態度在哪裡你不能只有委員的提案你行政單位的提案到現在一直遲遲不送出來這個我們也覺得這個非常的不應該所以市長這個我們還是希望能夠交付給您很重要的任務好不好好謝謝"},{"start":531.175,"end":531.196,"text":"好 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包委員因為一般都在百分之五 百分之十以內"},{"start":216.085,"end":236.478,"text":"所以你也不打算再調高就對了沒關係 這是你的答案你認為60%已經很高我不知道國人滿不滿意我個人是不滿意的那我現在在問一直在講日本模式總理長一直在講日本模式日本模式對於相關的加工廠有明確的稽查機制也有罰則我們現在有沒有我們有啊已經有了嗎有啊"},{"start":238.203,"end":252.594,"text":"好 你相關的罰金包括廢職指定資格的門檻你現在都已經有完整的機制我們如果再同意就是同意一般是如果查驗到我們就退運啦"},{"start":253.354,"end":256.657,"text":"有沒有罰則機制如果他有漏檢查或者有什麼樣的弊端的話有3萬到15萬我們用植物防疫檢疫法裡面第17條第1項的規定罰3萬到15萬來換國人的健康3萬到15萬國人可以接受這個是我提醒的點"},{"start":272.288,"end":299.118,"text":"我希望你們回去再思考一下胡次長我現在請衛福部的次長我現在要把焦點從看得見的發芽轉到看不見的化學殘留剛才大家一直在談龍奎檢但是事實上有另外一個問題房間署這一次的新規定有強調說要求美方在輸出前要在那個發芽要塗一個發芽抑制劑叫做克普芬要再塗一個發芽抑制劑"},{"start":299.958,"end":328.455,"text":"克普芬是好東西嗎看起來它可以抑制馬鈴薯不要太快發芽但是塗了之後對身體克普芬從國際的評估標準我看到的它對於造成身體的內分泌干擾還有輕人代謝致癌會有疑慮所以這件事情塗了這個事情抑制它發芽但是塗了之後對身體卻有傷害那我再回來看那個次長"},{"start":329.673,"end":345.307,"text":"克普芬我們現在在歐盟的標準是0.2ppm那我們現在是30ppm對不對我沒有講錯嗎這個標準我沒有講錯嘛歐盟對於克普芬的殘留是0.2ppm台灣目前對克普芬"},{"start":355.316,"end":357.357,"text":"歐盟對於克普芬的殘留容許值是0.2ppm我們台灣目前容許殘留值是30ppm除了一個輪迴減之外我們現在要求美方競選馬鈴薯"},{"start":375.285,"end":383.868,"text":"克普芬這個東西但是我們卻高於歐盟的這個標準是150倍這個150倍對我們身體的傷害是造成內分泌的影響還有包括致癌的影響這個我覺得是你們要去思考的那我現在再請問就是說包括克普芬還有包括克普芬產生的代謝物三氯苯胺克普芬因為會產生三氯苯胺我們未來"},{"start":401.035,"end":413.85,"text":"有沒有抽檢的比例除了大家說看到這個發芽的部分其實看不到的是另外一個對我們身體的隱憂這是我擔心的那我們到底有沒有抽檢的數據跟抽檢率有沒有設定這個標準有沒有"},{"start":414.588,"end":443.233,"text":"有 這個都有那包委員 這個其實都107年定下來的那跟其他 雖然歐盟是0.2但是美國大概都是30因為我擔心我們現在大量進口美國的馬鈴薯因為台美套餘的關係我也不反對但是國安的需要我是要把關的不管你是什麼時候定我覺得國安不能夠忍受現在我們對於克普菲恩包括三立本案的殘留值超過歐盟的150倍這是我要提醒你的地方是跟其他國家都是30pp"},{"start":444.053,"end":460.513,"text":"不要不要各位這是跟美國Codex一樣但是對歐盟卻高於150倍我相信對國人來說食安過去蔡政府是五個洞現在在內政府變成七個洞十個洞我相信是國人不能夠接受的大家國人對於喜歡吃薯條吃馬鈴薯片"},{"start":463.055,"end":481.586,"text":"因為大家都特別是年輕人很喜歡吃這個對身體是長遠的影響這也是我在那監督的立場組長我要提醒你的地方你們回去思考我認為國人不能接受你們要開放這些東西對於殘留值的標準要再嚴格把關比照澳門的標準是我要提醒的地方我的時間到我先接下來請主計長你們先請回主計長我最近我還是要關心一下不是主計長對不起沈記長"},{"start":489.811,"end":513.668,"text":"我留時間 沈記長最近台灣有幾個重大的公共工程的爆發的事件我在媒體上有看到包括第一件是移民署的防彈背心採購案第二個是我們包括月初我在媒體上看到的是七街碼頭城鄉工程案這些聯戰署現在已經接獲已經介入調查"},{"start":515.209,"end":541.082,"text":"包括在媒體看到的相關的一些事件我們審計處也會不會也介入調查也會不會去進一步做了解會 因為剛剛講的那個黃蛋背心是我們審計部查出來的好 主席講這個第一個案子是因為採購的偽劣品蒙混這是一個重大的工程的一個弊端那另外一個是重大工程異地失作看起來好像圖利包括工程延宕"},{"start":542.122,"end":553.046,"text":"共同的問題都是履約審查跟監督的機制失靈了就是在工程還在進行當中我不希望每一次都是審計處在事後我們才發現問題在執行契約的過程當中我們如果能夠發現問題當然是更好"},{"start":561.209,"end":585.32,"text":"所以到目前包括我們七階的工程我剛剛指的第二項是255億的工程港務公司表示施工的計畫包括建造審定包括變更施作的地點會不會影響招標的條件跟公正性不是港務公司說了算我要提醒就是說我覺得包括防彈背心案也是都是說都是事後我們才發現問題所以我覺得我們勢必要在"},{"start":586.48,"end":605.221,"text":"更有想辦法或用不同的一些工具輔助工具或者用不同的機制去對於正在進行招標的相關的案子不定時的去做更多的抽查同樣來說對於採購的一些項目包括重大工程我覺得有沒有涉及契約條件實質的變更內容"},{"start":608.385,"end":618.785,"text":"實時的條件片跟內容我覺得我們也應該要有更多的一些啟動的專案調查機制列入我們平常在重點審查的項目"},{"start":619.858,"end":626.324,"text":"這個期間總經費高達951億所以不容讓他這每一塊錢都是民脂民膏我們不要事後才發現事後才發現罰款不是我們的目的主席長我要提醒我們最後的記者給我最後一張圖"},{"start":642.858,"end":659.525,"text":"我們現在機關的改善每一年我看到說有七成好像改善但是還有三成仍待改善我覺得這個三成的部分25%仍待改善所以我覺得怎麼樣有更多的工具跟牙齒讓我們審計處對於各單位"},{"start":662.586,"end":690.193,"text":"待改善的项目比例应该逐年降低想办法了不然我给你人对不对我们去年我们多给你一个副主计长一个给你人地方也增加人我都希望我们的主计单位审计单位可以发挥的更好包括我们电脑辅助相关科技AI辅助工具可以做更多的查核这些比例我希望都可以降低可以抓出来然后改善我们现在各单位在执行的相关的业务跟招标的"},{"start":692.414,"end":701.58,"text":"我們都會 這一種沒有改善的我們都會追蹤再來這些沒改善的大部分都受制度還有法律規定我們會通知相關單位像這一種的會一直堅持不改善的"},{"start":714.528,"end":733.064,"text":"相關單位有問題的不改善就給他明年預算就給他少一點啊對不對多的錢沒有給其他表現好的單位啊不然誰被審計到有問題的不改善預算來照樣給他這審計處再跟不再沒有意義嘛對不對主席想點頭了我們明年我會繼續追好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168787","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168787","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442e67942f8cbe1046d5ab56d7e35fc4ecfd3cfaf5c3773194d0c48c7cb505eef785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:08:13 - 10:19:12","影片長度":"00:10:59","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-3院會付委）\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-7院會付委）\n（四）委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「民法第一千零三十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-6院會付委）\n（八）委員林月琴等22人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-9院會付委）\n（十二）委員黃捷等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員范雲等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第（十八）、（十九）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（二）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（四）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（五）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（六）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（七）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n【第（七）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（八）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-23","start_time":"2026-04-23T10:08:13+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-23T10:19:12+08:00","duration":659,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-5-36-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6722187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.283468750000001,"end":9.126593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.447218750000001,"end":10.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.952843750000003,"end":15.775343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.29846875,"end":24.989093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.99034375,"end":17.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.27596875,"end":26.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.28409375,"end":66.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.77159375000001,"end":91.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.56096875,"end":96.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.84284375,"end":99.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.91409375,"end":102.36096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.68159375,"end":103.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.67721875000001,"end":105.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.78659375000001,"end":112.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.50284375000001,"end":115.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.38846875,"end":116.95784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.51471875000001,"end":125.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.61034375000001,"end":129.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.03596875,"end":135.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.06034375000002,"end":137.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.13596875000002,"end":141.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.74721875,"end":142.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.87784375,"end":144.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.49784375000002,"end":146.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.38346875000002,"end":151.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.60221875000002,"end":171.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.97034375,"end":184.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.38159375,"end":187.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.59221875,"end":193.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.90784375,"end":194.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.28721875000002,"end":208.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.07846875,"end":211.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.23846875,"end":216.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.77346875,"end":217.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.88721875000002,"end":219.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.21596875,"end":222.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.86534375000002,"end":232.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.02409375000002,"end":250.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.60784375000003,"end":252.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.39659375000002,"end":255.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.78846875000002,"end":256.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.73346875000004,"end":259.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.70346875,"end":265.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.65596875,"end":268.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.41096875,"end":275.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.32534375,"end":279.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.08409375,"end":283.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.48471875,"end":282.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.21034375,"end":385.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.22721875,"end":283.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.04659375,"end":390.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.07534375,"end":406.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.56659375000004,"end":407.19096875},{"speaker":"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你也沒有給出完整的一個答案"},{"start":81.46,"end":102.201,"text":"所以我才這樣一直主張說趕快啊要來召開公聽會來全面來檢視啊離婚以後整個經濟制度的經濟的一個保障制度從今天我看到了不管司法院或者行政院大家談的就幾項而已嘛就是說從有責你走到破綻那你對於整個財產的一個揭露"},{"start":103.262,"end":128.337,"text":"舉證責任到贍養費的一個標準我看這個接下來額外比較迅速公聽完語我們就一次做完整的一個制度的一個重建那整個制度其實它是在改變的就你整個離婚制度那麼多國家在改變其實我們也經過修法那制度讓離婚制度讓它更進步但是又碰到一個問題啊我們也不能只讓"},{"start":130.123,"end":146.202,"text":"能走的人走掉然後弱勢的人留在原地這樣受傷我看這個也不對那從本來啊我們整個離婚制度是說本來是講說誰有誰不對誰有錯啊他現在變成說變得越來越寬鬆了就變成說"},{"start":147.783,"end":169.45,"text":"才破綻主義啦,你們就沒辦法做事啦,就隨人追求自己的幸福,那就可以了所以國際上的一個趨勢其實也很清楚,多數國家都從逐步過失走向婚姻是否實質的一個破裂啦那當然也去搭配整個分居事實作為判斷的一個標準,跟一些刻苦的一個條款,就是說鬆綁啦"},{"start":172.211,"end":194.734,"text":"但是弱勢還是要去保護,可是我發現一個問題,司法院跟法務部這個地方針對於剩餘財產的一個分配,對於離婚弱勢配偶的一個保障,我看完以後,我一直在想一個問題,就是說,我們現在的規定,現行制度,是否真的有用?"},{"start":196.345,"end":201.752,"text":"有沒有辦法發揮它的作用有沒有辦法發揮它的作用你譬如說我們民法1030條1030條之3剩餘財產的保全措施的部分我們跟他講就說你這裡如果"},{"start":211.365,"end":230.311,"text":"你這個在法定財產至關稽消滅前五年內你處分分貨財產的位我會想你給他動作 給他財產追加來做一個計算就變成形成是一種數字上的一個概念而已那實務上裡面大家在看這些問題的時候會講說資訊"},{"start":233.072,"end":249.94,"text":"不對稱啦有時候要撐起來你也沒辦法啦有時候也有一些反效果啦就是認為說我財產比較多的一方我擔心被反向去評分所以我也要去做一個注定啦所以現在行政院的修法裡面要求增訂的是財產清澈希望說可以請求他方提出財產清澈跟"},{"start":255.994,"end":277.924,"text":"證明文件以強化夫妻財產揭露的義務,並落實剩餘財產分配請求權。那司法院認為喔,你10萬元已經沒必要了。聽長我看了你們司法院的報告,那是不是請法務部或者說司法院向社會大眾來做一個說明,你們的差距在什麼地方,是不是?總廷長你來講一下。"},{"start":284.003,"end":304.838,"text":"市長有關財產揭露的義務現在所針對的第二項 第一個欠缺比較具體的揭露內容第二個就是各項的明目 第二個欠缺了法定失權的效果他如果不提出有什麼失權效"},{"start":305.839,"end":328.946,"text":"那反而回到現行家事訴訟有夫妻可以提一個非送請求他提出財產的報告那這個不提出的話我們依照家事訴訟準用民訴就讓他失去那個所謂的效果來讓另一方得到那個利益這是我們第一個的想法"},{"start":329.446,"end":354.303,"text":"那第二個就是說這個部分因為他著重兩個立法目的第一個夫妻財產揭露的義務是要在這個平等權之下來落實就是雙方就財產的知悉權但第二個立法理由裡面有講到說他是也是屬於剩餘財產部分的一個公平的一個解決的一個方案讓他提出來結果呢我們剛剛委員有有有講了"},{"start":360.006,"end":385.019,"text":"之一那陸續裡面他都有提出這樣的義務 審判長也會一直前命他提出那麼這個是我們目前的思考但我們覺得這一條就是剛剛的10571022的這個可以 如果要那應該列到這個所謂的剩餘財產這一部分去這是以上我們的思考 謝謝"},{"start":386.129,"end":414.498,"text":"所以我看司法案件的意思是說如果對方不提出或者隱匿甚至造假他說法律效果的保安就是說要把他追加進去追加進去之後把追加計算這個婚後的財產的保安那其實剛剛廳長所提到這個部分你比如說明確化配合財產報告義務的範圍行使方式跟違反的一個效果譬如說你婚後財產的項目數額財產所在地變動情況這些原因我的一本席的意思就是說"},{"start":416.445,"end":424.997,"text":"司法院跟行政院 我們應該再去想想這個弱勢的配偶有沒有其他保障的一個機制"},{"start":426.394,"end":447.082,"text":"重點在這裡 重點 我想你看看我們認為還是院版的那個有節流義務因為我的意思就是我們不要只有宣誓性這個我認為是要有實質要定在實體法上那剛才司法院的看法那是屬於訴訟事件已經離婚事件裡面才有這樣的一個適用那我們是定在實體法上 實體法上"},{"start":448.683,"end":471.918,"text":"不但是有打那個官司啦 離婚訴訟啦齁其實在一個離婚的話我們認為只要有碰到這個問題就要有提出了揭露的義務我認為這個對一個弱勢的一個離婚配偶這才有一個保障這才會落實一個勝於財產分配請求的一個公平性這才能真正保障弱勢的一個配偶啦是 我看整個修法裡面"},{"start":473.534,"end":488.168,"text":"這當然去參考其他全世界國際上各個國家的離婚制度的一個修正喔台灣去跟上那當然是對的但問題就涉及到幾個比較要說的都錢啦尤其是比較要你剩餘財產嘛不然你再說就贍養費嘛像贍養費這個問題喔"},{"start":492.672,"end":519.102,"text":"這個制度其實以現在來看的話是幾乎是嚴重的一個失靈啦那院版的修法裡面確實是在往比較更正確的一個方向我現在就不只是我現在不給你局限裁判離婚我現在連協議離婚或是法院去調解和解各種法定的離婚方式全部都可以去請求了但問題來了等於說贍養費那到底是什麼如果你把它當成是一種婚姻期間的一個貢獻對他的一個補償的話"},{"start":521.863,"end":532.994,"text":"那好啦,那我們為什麼又再規定說,再婚以後他喪失贊養會的一個請求權,這個就奇怪了,所以我不知道你們這裡的看法,廳長你也看完了嗎?聽到沒有?"},{"start":538.513,"end":558.076,"text":"我說這個善養費啦善養費譬如說為什麼要給這個善養費夫妻之一方要給離婚都變為善養費就是說你對這個婚姻就有貢獻嘛時時有貢獻嘛可是我們現在修法又講說有貢獻所以給你善養費可是呢你又去走向另外一段婚姻的時候又消滅掉了"},{"start":560.258,"end":573.705,"text":"報告委員這個分兩個部分一個部分大家剛剛都論述了一個就是所謂的補償性質一個就是撫養性質那因為參佐世界國有新的立法例他一直強調"},{"start":574.645,"end":592.201,"text":"就是選擇這個所謂的一個裁量所謂的乾淨離婚就是讓這個家庭穩定 社會穩定所以就不要再去跟前婚姻有所糾葛那是採取這樣不過在這個"},{"start":593.922,"end":619.034,"text":"補償性質的部分如果在剩餘財產其他部分都沒有補償其實我們研究的結果它真的是如果設計這樣是沒有所謂的所謂這個對婦女所謂一切不歧視平等這部分似乎有待再斟酌了真的 我也認為啦所以我來 我趕快這個法因為憲判制也出來了"},{"start":619.634,"end":641.423,"text":"那確實是行政院這個地方 法務部這個地方我們也該有所作為按照憲法法庭的一個指示我們趕快來完成這一步的一個法律的重新的一個修正我看我再來做一個公聽讓整個制度讓他聽聽各方的一個意見讓這個制度去往前走你看今天大家講的時候大家意見會有所不一樣可是問題這是"},{"start":643.144,"end":656.945,"text":"就聽聽司法院 聽聽法務部 聽聽法學專家專家來喔 十幾個高級政策都不一樣但面對這整個制度的一個變革我相信應該大家來共同來想出一個解方啦好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168786","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168786","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be54427463701433b1734647e947452b276263d3cfaf5c3773194df0c8cd608c1fd9b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"10:11:28 - 10:17:47","影片長度":"00:06:19","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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持1億多的這個稅入可以再增加吧其實就路同委員知道因為這個稅入主要是來自於罰還那罰還是有高度的不確定性因為是訴訟、行政救濟等等各方面好 這個我已經談了很多次了這個是完備法制"},{"start":146.544,"end":158.523,"text":"這個部分你們特別提到檢討修正公平交易法確實是要修了如果我們看上次我質詢的已經質詢了很多次"},{"start":159.905,"end":184.69,"text":"這個公平教育法主要的條文從106年6月14日到現在已經9年了都沒有修了你們曾經公平教育委員會曾經在2023年6月6號議告要修正公平教育法的部分條文"},{"start":185.56,"end":202.304,"text":"阿結果這麼久了?各位報告我們現在已經有一個修法小組已經開過一次會我們下禮拜要再開會已經有提出這個準備要修法的條文阿已經開始著手在進行議定什麼時候會報行政院?這個我目前還沒有確定的期程但是我們會盡快因為"},{"start":204.997,"end":220.311,"text":"你們可以參考過期我們在經濟委員會其他立委包括我所提出來的這個現在這個因為詐騙案很多是網路網路詐騙而且是交易"},{"start":221.332,"end":250.41,"text":"是以交易的名義來去結果都是被詐騙了所以這個不能怎麼樣去因應不要每一次這個都是推給這個司法機關司法機關是最後了但前面前面要有一個非常好的完備的法規好這個部分所以要請這個好接下來請那個經濟部水利署我們經濟部次長"},{"start":257.332,"end":275.379,"text":"好 市長今天這個有土石採取法的一個修正條文當然主要是因應之前在高雄的這些土石採取或是其他地方大量造成的這些影響那本席"},{"start":276.899,"end":300.141,"text":"跟我们其他立法原住民的立委也非常关注这个第三条根据原住民族基本法相关的这些规定能够把这个明确化在整个土石采集法里面像第三条针对不只是原住民自然人"},{"start":301.551,"end":318.302,"text":"還包含部落很多傳統的技藝各方面都是部落來為主體的需要希望能夠納入那有關相關的這些石板屋不只是個人家庭包括"},{"start":319.554,"end":347.347,"text":"機關、學校也都會有甚至教會也都會有所以這個部分也都能夠把它納入另外就是14條也做了這樣的修正當然我們下午審查的時候也請經濟部支持還有其他的相關的部會我們下午再好好的討論好不好"},{"start":348.24,"end":374.146,"text":"好 謝謝委員所提到的這個第三條第一項第七款的部分事實上在原住民基本法的第19條裡面就有規定了對 我們把它明確化因為根據原住民族基本法第34條的規定是說三年內要修相關的法例所以我們要正式把它納入在這個法例裡面好 謝謝委員知道好 謝謝"},{"start":375.831,"end":377.599,"text":"好 謝謝鄭天才委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168785","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168785","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442b6dea82cdec4d9936726ceb1fc879916d3cfaf5c3773194de5986559e7e11f9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:59:01 - 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你們要說清楚講明白啊花芽不代表就有龍葵茧因為那個必須要在經過花芽不代表就有龍葵茧因為花芽在0.5公分以內的話那個是"},{"start":281.394,"end":307.4,"text":"都會被承認的日本人根本就不檢查有沒有花芽你不要講日本我們今天是針對我們食安食安的風險因為你為什麼整批進口加工就可以來做處理不加工的話你就是只要有花學它確實有龍奎鹼有花芽就要整批退這個裡面就是考量到為什麼食安是多重要啊"},{"start":308.28,"end":317.357,"text":"對不對 不要把人民的那個健康來開玩笑沒有錯 我也是國民啦我的家人我的親友都是國民我們非常重視這一塊啦"},{"start":318.854,"end":339.27,"text":"那在農業部的部分我們是防疫主要是說防疫就怕這些流入的馬鈴薯它流到田裡面又去種種的時候把國外的病人菌把它帶進來這個是我們所擔心的至於食品安全的話這個要麻煩衛福部來做回應本席先跟財政部跟農業部確認啦美國加工用的馬鈴薯在海關的貨品號"},{"start":341.787,"end":349.816,"text":"列的號碼是不是07019000-003因為昨天我的助理有特別打電話去聯繫農業部的防檢署確認而農業部在4月15日衛防委員會書面報告裡面提到新檢疫條件2月6日"},{"start":362.19,"end":376.749,"text":"實施到現在為止上有美國加工用的馬鈴薯輸入但是本期請助理查了一下上述貨品號列的馬鈴薯今年3月從美國進口的馬鈴薯數量有137公噸"},{"start":379.532,"end":395.813,"text":"價值是221萬新台幣外界沒有辦法分辨哪些是加工用的馬鈴薯哪些是實用的馬鈴薯那我請問農業部跟財政部美國加工用與實用的馬鈴薯都在一個貨號如何來避免外界的誤判"},{"start":396.314,"end":411.644,"text":"是 報告委員到目前為止美國進來全部都是現實用的都是生鮮的 沒有加工的那第二個我們也發現這個貨號是相同所以已經跟財政部提出申請相信在最近的這個時間以內財政部就會給我們分開"},{"start":412.805,"end":432.674,"text":"那因為美國的這個加工用的這個馬鈴薯啊七月之後才會進口所以這一段期間我們應該財政部我們已經因為齁 人民很關心這個事情啊對對對 外面的都很關心因為根據媒體報導 衛福部對進口馬鈴薯目前才一般的抽批 查檢那抽驗率啊2%到10%而已那請"},{"start":438.336,"end":465.744,"text":"這個衛福部分別說明美國食用與加工用的馬鈴薯依規定抽檢龍葵檢含量超過200ppm時會如何處置不管是否食用或加工都是整批退運或銷毀嗎包委員就是如果我們一旦驗到這個龍葵檢超過200ppm我們整批退運也就是說它一批裡面可能有三個貨櫃這三個貨櫃就是退運或銷毀一定不能進入到我們的市場"},{"start":466.764,"end":489.832,"text":"因為人民非常重視就是這個食安的問題農業部房檢署邊境除批茶葉馬鈴薯打開貨櫃發現馬鈴薯花芽依現行的規定可封存然後運往加工廠若該批馬鈴薯食藥署沒有抽到茶葉"},{"start":491.493,"end":504.968,"text":"農業部是否會通知食藥署去補查驗該批馬鈴薯的龍奎檢到底有沒有超標會不會因為如果龍奎檢超標那請問各主管機關你們要如何處理"},{"start":508.272,"end":534.853,"text":"就是我們會驗龍奎檢重金屬跟農藥殘留這三項只要超標就一定退運或銷毀我是希望說這個要嚴謹農業黃檢署打開貨櫃沒有發現馬鈴薯花芽但是藥署抽到要檢驗龍奎檢請問該批馬鈴薯是否需等化驗後出爐才能將整批貨櫃送往加工廠加工"},{"start":535.973,"end":559.768,"text":"對 一定要等他 的確沒有超過兩百多億因為現在的老百姓他們非常非常關心有關於馬鈴薯的融回錢因為這個跟很多民眾在吃馬鈴薯以後到底會不會產生食安的問題我認為這個是非常非常重要我希望各行政官員本著良心"},{"start":560.849,"end":587.524,"text":"自己吃才能讓一般的老百姓吃啦你不要說因為我檢驗的時候然後這個上面規定怎麼樣我要是去放寬然後到最後出問題那時候汪洋補勞都來不及了啦我們要事前去杜絕緩緩那這個最後一個議題關於中央政府永續發展政府的債券目前看來財政部啊"},{"start":588.745,"end":602.9,"text":"115年115第一期的公債金門大學校舍興建外發行金額為新台幣4億元年期為30年那我請問財政部115年是否還有其他計畫會發行永續發展的債券"},{"start":607.965,"end":621.329,"text":"我們除了金門大學的這個永續艦的發行之外另外我們就是高雄的航空站那金額是790億那我們現在在福島他能夠發行永續載"},{"start":623.47,"end":652.759,"text":"那這部分我們會積極來推動目前除了中央之外我們也希望地方政府能夠加入來發行所以現在目前中央跟地方已經發行了大概345億所以未來我們會跟金管會還有櫃買中心我們合作尋找相關案員來發行相關的永續債好 這樣我了解其實剛剛前一位委員所講的有一些我都聽不下去"},{"start":653.834,"end":681.221,"text":"大家都很清楚 沈記長那個竹記長你上來我請教你你那個電會說電梯沒有電沒有電會可以支運可能嗎那是經常門啊你就是預算沒有過一樣可以發會啊那個都是在騙老百姓不是他如果沒有編預算就不能沒有編預算拜託電會沒有編預算你每年都編了沒有編預算"},{"start":683.095,"end":702.016,"text":"經常門欸那不是資本門欸對不對你組計長你做那麼久難道連這一點你都不懂嗎對不對因為他業務全部被減的百分之九十七啦九十七啦去年的時候經常門都可以用去年用的今年都可以用"},{"start":703.001,"end":722.099,"text":"對不對 你就是預算沒有過也可以用大家心知肚明 對不對 不要騙老百姓經常門啦 你的水電 該用的 本來經常門就可以用資本門我不敢講經常門主要是人事費和業務費為大宗啦那再來譬如說"},{"start":723.869,"end":744.695,"text":"店會沒有嗎所以他可以留用的部分你這個店會沒有嗎你大宗的被減掉很多債不要去扭曲啦店會每年固定編的你喔身為組織長你一定要講實話讓老百姓清楚我們是針對問題不要去扭曲去騙我們沒有扭曲啦好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168784","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168784","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be54423e4660847833308147e947452b276263d3cfaf5c3773194dbf7f96ea759d50d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:00:05 - 10:11:23","影片長度":"00:11:18","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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我全部不認識是 沒有問題喔因為這在國外當中其實很火熱啦然後因為他們的產生的時候就是不只是出現一些content的提供而已他們也開始介入一些直播帶貨的一個情況"},{"start":55.43,"end":80.888,"text":"因為介入直播帶貨的時候我們其實就會碰到跟我們公平會就會有點相關的問題那對於這樣的一個情況的時候我們看到幾個研究報告因為整個AI虛擬網紅他們出現之後那麼有研究報告指出來有25%的消費者是願意買單的而且也實際在買單當中那這樣的情況的時候就會產生一些我們"},{"start":81.508,"end":107.347,"text":"特別關注的一個問題就對於這樣子的一個虛擬網紅他們算不算是我們在公平交易當中特別提到的一個見證者這樣的一個角色也請主委回答一下因為虛擬用AI的工具基本上AI也是一個工具啦再或者是背後操縱這個工具所以假設有符合我們見證廣告甚至於不實廣告的相關規定這個都是不實廣告可以介入的OK"},{"start":108.007,"end":136.057,"text":"那對於這不實廣告的戒備當中因為我們之前對於所謂的見證者因為是自然人的狀態的時候我們很容易去找到他們的一個責任要怎麼樣去承擔那對於這樣的一個虛擬網紅的一個情況的時候那我們到時候追究如果說這虛擬網紅他們到時候見證的過程當中有產生一些彩虹線的一個行為的時候我們要怎麼去追究它是針對創造IP的人"},{"start":137.777,"end":157.959,"text":"還是持有IP的人可不可以請主委做一個簡單的回應這個就是在我們公民法裡面所謂廣告主的認定我們要把責任加諸在誰的身上那這個公民會基本上有一個原則就是說第一個我們會看到他對於廣告的內容是不是有參與第二個他有沒有透過這個廣告會有利益如果符合這個條件基本上就是我們可以追責的對象"},{"start":159,"end":170.736,"text":"因為他是AI嘛 對不對所以說你要追責的狀態的時候廣告組沒有問題所以你說這個虛擬的網紅他們本身也要負擔"},{"start":172.53,"end":201.73,"text":"連帶的一個賠償責任虛擬網紅本身就是虛擬嘛但是是那個操縱那個後面的操縱的人對不對所以基本上是我們是針對於擁有這個IP的人去做創造這個AI虛擬人物創造跟擁有的人不一定是一樣的所以我想要去理解的狀態是擁有這個虛擬網紅的人的時候他要去負擔這個連帶責任那如果說他是授權出去的時候是被授權的人"},{"start":202.891,"end":225.052,"text":"他就用這樣的一個廣告行為的時候他要去負擔這樣的一個責任他們標準還是一樣就是即使他是授權的方式只要他對於廣告內容他知悉有參與而且他透過這個行為獲有利益都不排除是一個廣告主義好 理解那我想說因為這個部分因為現在已經不斷地在開始產生了我們也希望公平會能夠特別去關注那麼另外一個部分就是"},{"start":225.812,"end":249.227,"text":"我們對於所謂演算法定價這個部分相關的一個問題產生那我看到說之前的時候我們公平會曾經針對深層市人工智慧相關競爭法議題進行公眾意見的這個部分當中的時候對於所謂的演算法定價所產生出來的一些問題的時候感覺目前公平會是採取一個低度介入的狀態"},{"start":250.268,"end":277.578,"text":"就事情發生了之後我們再去做一個事後監管的一個狀態是不是這樣的一個情況原則上因為如果你涉及到演算法定價我們不太以目前來講我們不太適合事先就要求業者演算法介入所以我們大概都是事後如果出現議題我們再介入那剛剛委員談到這個AI的政策聲明我們之所以沒有說積極的表示要介入是因為從我們公共徵詢的意見回收業者普遍來講他們認為目前台灣還沒有出現這樣的一個問題"},{"start":278.558,"end":305.061,"text":"OK 因為還沒有出現那我再想說以目前來講因為公平會議之前有提到說你們要提出修法要曾經去新設一個這個法律修法那我想說是不是表示目前基本上是處在一個無法可管的一個情況有它的局限因為就是說演算法定價往往會涉及到不是同業水平的關係它有可能是一個平台一個平台跟它不是屬於同一個市場的競爭以目前的法律來講我們就很難用聯合行為來管它"},{"start":306.002,"end":332.185,"text":"不過因為其實坦白說自動定價這樣子的一個演說法定價其實已經開始非常的成熟其實很多定房系統也都是用這樣子的方式在走所以說如果說我們要等到新的修法之後再去開始去針對這個問題那本期倒是特別提到針對公民交易法第20條當中的時候它第三四款都有特別提到一個或者是"},{"start":332.645,"end":360.972,"text":"不正當方法這個部分也許可以把不正當方法這個部分把它做個擴大的一個解釋針對這樣子的一個演算法定價的時候也許可以在我們還沒有修法完成的時候不要出現空窗期我們可以先把它包裹進來你講的完全正確就是第二十條特別是第四款的部分第三款第四款我們都是在這個因為聯合行為有它的侷限的情況底下我們事實上也有案子對於二十條第四款來處理"},{"start":361.992,"end":381.505,"text":"就是一個實作勇者好那我們希望因為坦白說因為這兩年AI開始非常蓬勃的一個發展然後接下來速度肯定只會更快不會更慢所以我們也希望公平會能夠跟上這樣的一個腳步好不好是不是那我在這邊我想特別再特別關注一下其實因為現在所謂的一個"},{"start":382.205,"end":399.772,"text":"跟我們公平會有關的一些聯合行為不只是價格剛剛楊全文有特別提到那個例子他從供需的角度開始去做達到一個聯合行為這樣的一個狀態的一個樣態那我想說這邊想請教一個部分因為我們看到從109年到113年針對聯合行為的行政處分統計我們看到了一個情況"},{"start":407.375,"end":432.774,"text":"就是說主動調查的部分 坦白說大概都只有兩件因為110那七件事實上是因為它有類似的一個案件基本上是這樣的情況那大部分都是檢舉案件的部分那檢舉案件的比例占比到達113年已經將近87.5% 將近九成我想請教一下114年的占比大概是多少檢舉的占比大概是占多少"},{"start":433.775,"end":453.805,"text":"主委這邊有沒有數字我現在手邊沒有我可以查一下再跟你們報告因為我們看到這個狀態的時候檢舉案件的占比顯然是非常的重這可能代表一個狀態就是我們公平會能夠主動去調查偵辦的能量也許有限因為我看幾乎每年都是只有兩件"},{"start":454.965,"end":484.305,"text":"那其他的部分的時候呢都是用那個檢舉的一個案件那我們也看到了一個事情就是在去年年底的時候我們看到公民會這邊有針對檢舉違法聯合行為獎金發放辦法這個地方去做了一個調整就是針對依據網路電視廣播報章或其他一般民眾可以取得的公開資料提出檢舉的部分基本上現在就不發放獎金"},{"start":484.645,"end":498.291,"text":"而且要追回對不對我看新做的一個辦法一個修法出來結果是這樣子我想請教一下之前我們所收到的檢舉當中是依照公開訊息民眾來檢舉佔比大概是多少"},{"start":500.952,"end":519.495,"text":"占比我沒有具體的數字但是占比很高很高對但是因為就是因為這樣的情況我們發現民眾的檢舉往往就是網路上看到一個然後就一頁下來就直接丟給公平會OK那我要講的狀態是因為我們剛剛看到上一頁那狀態將近目前大概有九成的狀態都是民眾檢舉的情況但是公平會本身的"},{"start":520.555,"end":535.941,"text":"主動偵查的能量其實是有限的那如果說我們現在修改這個獎金辦法的時候讓比方說用這樣子的方式檢舉的基本上都沒有辦法得到獎金基本上我們只支持深喉嚨的一個狀態內部檢舉的一個情況"},{"start":539.103,"end":563.215,"text":"但是就是說我們還是會積極的鼓勵民眾能夠檢舉他希望民眾提供給我們市政是我們一般人所看不到的理解 理解我們擔心的狀態是說如果說因為我們現在看到上月數字有將近九成都是靠民眾檢舉那我們現在調整他的獎金發放辦法的時候可能會導致民眾檢舉的意願大幅的下降那我們要用什麼方法去"},{"start":563.715,"end":579.801,"text":"作為一個平衡我想這是公平會這邊必須要去面對的一個問題我了解委員關切的點你怕我們到時候檢舉的案子會比較沒有誘因來檢舉那這點我們會考慮我們在網路上監測或是這個所謂民生物品的一個聯合行為監測事實上我們都持續有在做主動的透過網路來監測"},{"start":581.596,"end":595.589,"text":"好 那我最後針對我們有一個反脫壓式基金從110年到115年對於網路不實廣告的一個統計數字當中的時候那我們大概看到了一個情況就是"},{"start":597.75,"end":620.154,"text":"110的預算出大概290萬其實坦白說金額不大啦因為公平匯本身的預算金額就不大那我們看到了到了113年增加到450萬金額不大可是比例非常的高可是我們看到的狀態我們主動調查的案件基本上是都一樣沒有什麼很大的改變所以我在想說我們針對不實廣告這個部分"},{"start":623.486,"end":643.862,"text":"預算的大幅的提高 因為今年提到了500萬的狀態金額不大 可是比例很高那我們也希望它能夠真正產生好的一個結果跟委員說明一下 金額之所以提高的原因是因為我們發現不時廣告太陽快速的變化然後再加上一些AI技術的生成 就剛剛委員談到了"},{"start":644.222,"end":660.782,"text":"所以事實上在我們今年的計畫裡面我們有把AI不實廣告部分我們把它列入請我們會委託外面的政策機構來幫我們協助判斷AI是不是有AI那這個部分都會導致我們的這個預算數必須要增加才有辦法針對案件數的增加還有那個困難度的增加這個部分"},{"start":660.882,"end":675.293,"text":"所以本期今天提到這幾個點就是說希望我們公平會這邊預算不高可是我們希望它能夠確實發揮主動調查的能量能夠保障消費者好不好是 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委 謝謝好 我們謝謝鄭振全委員"}]}},{"id":"168783","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168783","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442bf1a10ed3fbc89466e07bf52eec0dd49d3cfaf5c3773194d356a8bce1c9ee5345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱慧洳","委員發言時間":"09:57:25 - 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各位委員 還有各位政府部門的同仁大家好那我們有請石部長"},{"start":16.383,"end":42.189,"text":"好 部長部長好就委員好是 我今天想跟你交流呢心理健康支持方案的成效還有適用的年齡層好那我想呢我們大家應該都略有掌握其實自殺呢是我們國人的十大死因之一那特別我關心的是青少年已經跳出十大了已經跳出十大了那當然這個但是他應該還是"},{"start":43.849,"end":70.198,"text":"那部長有掌握現在是第幾嗎11 12啦11 12就在邊緣嘛所以一稍微有疏忽可能又會再跌回十大的範圍之內還是要很努力是是那我關心的是這個青少年自殺的問題那青少年我們可以看到這張圖青少年是紅色的他的年齡區間大概就是紅色這個曲線來表示那他似乎有逐年提升的一個問題"},{"start":71.638,"end":93.11,"text":"我們當然知道衛福部對於自殺的防治對於國人心理健康的提升在過去幾年又做了一個努力那在112年的時候有提供一個叫年輕族群的心理健康支持方案那適用的年齡層是15到30歲那也許應該是效果不錯吧所以年齡有再往上拓展到45歲嘛"},{"start":95.131,"end":121.54,"text":"那現在我想要請教部長就是說那這兩個方案目前執行的情形如何那對於自殺的防治你們是不是有掌握到成效的評估這個不直接只是針對這個自殺因為現在這個特別是在年輕族群也有一些情緒困擾那需要有一些因為過去這個難免這個就醫"},{"start":125.041,"end":150.539,"text":"會覺得有標籤化的問題所以我們才會導入這個一開始是15到30歲一年三次的免費的諮商因為推出之後反應很不錯因為從這中間也會有一些轉介發現到一些個案他就會轉介到真正需要的醫療服務或者是說他還是回到這個學校的輔導系統等等這些會有一些資源的連結"},{"start":151.66,"end":172.506,"text":"因為就會有反映到說其實往後年輕世代工作壓力家庭原因也都是在這個年齡群工作跟經濟家庭所以才會往後延後到45歲大概是這樣那以自殺率來看的話"},{"start":177.268,"end":198.532,"text":"其實在這個Covid之後委員您也都是這方面的專業很清楚Covid之後整個那個Mental Health的問題受到很大的衝擊所以各國那個自殺率都有一些往上不過我們看起來也是差不多跟國際的趨勢一樣稍微有往上不過去年我們又把它下降了"},{"start":198.632,"end":216.728,"text":"特別關心的是就是青少年因為青少年他們就是有早熟的趨勢然後也有一些情感的困擾那現在網路資訊也很爆炸那可能也會有一些詐騙被詐騙然後霸凌等等的一個現象所以我想這些的社會因素有可能都會衝擊到他們的心理健康"},{"start":217.288,"end":238.084,"text":"所以我覺得提供給他們一些心理諮詢我覺得是一個很可行的方向那衛福部現在也在努力那現在有個問題就是說我們來看一下心理師法嘛心理師法有提到說心理師如果在執行業務的時候要取得當事人或法代的同意那我解讀這一條我自己從法律的角度來解讀我是覺得說因為這邊提到說當事人或法代嘛那我就"},{"start":238.624,"end":256.332,"text":"解讀上我會區分為兩個族群一個族群就成年人成年人當然就當事人同意那如果是未成年當然就是法代同意但是這裡就所以部長應該認同這個法律上的解讀嘛那所以這裡現在有一個問題就是說你如果青少年他要使用這些諮詢的時候他前提要法代同意"},{"start":256.852,"end":278.984,"text":"那因為他遭遇這些問題他有時候不敢告訴家人那不敢告訴家人如何取得法帶的同意這第一件事然後再來就是說好不容易告訴家人那部長您剛剛有提到嘛就是汙名化的問題家長他也許會覺得說我的小孩去接受行李諮商那不想讓他們去那沒有法帶同意之下小孩子即使想去也去不了那所幸這裡有一個我們還蠻"},{"start":279.884,"end":306.254,"text":"高興看到的一個解套方式就是在校園內有學生輔導法嘛學生輔導法就心理師在校園內如果質詢這些心理諮商的時候在符合三個要件的情況之下就可以把心理衛生心理師法第19條的法帶同意的限制做一個解套嘛那要建議就是學生本人同意要建議就是學校有一個個案的會議來做評估如果學生有需求第三個就是考量到這個學生的最佳利益"},{"start":306.954,"end":323.188,"text":"那現在問題就是說當然就可以不需要法代的同意但問題就是說因為這個是學生輔導法它發生在校園內有就學的學生那如果今天是在校園外沒有就學的好像就要回歸到心理司法第19條還是要法代的同意那我們現在就覺得說那這個對於未就學的"},{"start":326.711,"end":344.516,"text":"15到18歲的這個未成年人他們常常是有來自於今天我們的主題嘛錯過家庭然後沒有辦法繼續就學中錯身可能他們就沒有再適用學生輔導法而還是要受到心理司法第19條的限制那不知道校部長您怎麼看"},{"start":346.337,"end":362.688,"text":"對 這個其實委員點出了一個其實跟我們兒少權法也很有相關聯性就是在CRC裡面特別有提到尊重這個兒少的意見那這裡面就有這個所謂的知情權 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這個我們再強化去宣導啦那當然這個您對這個法律很精確啦所以當然在心理司法還有這些文字存在所以這中間在推動這個方案上我會找這個新建司來討論一下如何"},{"start":609.309,"end":627.272,"text":"也要保障這個心理師的權益然後讓這個需要者這些青少年也能夠容易取得這樣一個服務所以不管我這邊就是有兩個問題想要請你來做一些協助就是說因為我們剛剛有提到說你們的Q&A看起來是放寬"},{"start":628.593,"end":657.317,"text":"並不以法帶的同意為必要可是實務上有一些心理師確認為要那有沒有可能提供給我們一些資料就是到底現在目前目前實務的操作上到底是有多少比例是有經過法帶然後有多少比例是沒有經過法帶那也許我們掌握這個資訊可以進步來思考如何來協助這個資源的廣大普及到青少年那第二個問題就是說我想這個方案我們真的非常的支持那"},{"start":657.757,"end":663.398,"text":"因為你的年齡層往上提升到30歲提升到45歲那有沒有可能往下扎根我們再往下扎根加會到這個12歲到15歲的族群因為就如同我剛剛說的現在真的很早熟然後情感因素有些其實國中就有一些情感因素了那可不可以擴大地適用到這12歲的族群部長是不是有這個可能性我們來研究看看研究看看"},{"start":682.543,"end":690.77,"text":"不知道是不是可以一個月內給我們這些可行性的評估報告謝謝部長那我們就一起來為青少年的心理健康來一起努力謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168782","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168782","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be544215234077f884ce146e07bf52eec0dd49d3cfaf5c3773194d0cc001442e8e29285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:39:28 - 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謝謝各位委員有請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":8.097,"end":33.847,"text":"陳委員長部長剛有兩個委員已經關心了因為大家昨天看到社工上街頭的新聞其實都很難過啊他們拿著牌子說我們接住受害者那誰來接住我們現在法院的判決是把他們當作所有小孩的保證人但剛有講啊人力不足抄案抄量在接案這邊要請部長表示您的意見您覺得他們是每一個小朋友的保證人嗎"},{"start":36.213,"end":62.487,"text":"這個我要藉這個機會也提到我們一定做所有社工的後盾這個是我們主管機關的態度那當然在法律的見解上那麼法院有這樣的見解所以我們才會在明天下午召開邀請法界可能法界有不同的這個見解啦並不是這個定於一尊所以我們明天就邀請了各方"},{"start":62.947,"end":83.975,"text":"那大家現在也蠻像 聽一下您初步的看法嘛因為他們這樣子 遇到這樣子的事件 熱情被燃燒殆盡有很多人是萌生要離職的這樣子想法我們也不希望這個社共的缺口越來越大所以我們想知道說 法院說保姆因為容易情緒化 他這樣子說對保姆合理嗎 您覺得"},{"start":86.259,"end":102.469,"text":"您說的是他說保姆容易情緒化所以他認為社工本來就應該要多加監督您覺得他這樣子講對保姆還有對社工合理嗎您認同嗎我是建議我們比較"},{"start":103.61,"end":127.311,"text":"不去做這個個案的批評啊那必須是整個這個從這個法律架構上然後他的這個責任釐清上面我們來切入所以我們才會有今天下午先跟社工座談聽聽他們第一線的聲音然後明天呢才邀請法界那麼跟也有一些學者大家來對話"},{"start":128.772,"end":152.524,"text":"這些社工的要求真的不多他的意思是說他希望主管機關也就是您衛福部可以清楚的定義他們的工作範圍他們只想知道他們的工作範圍是在什麼程度以內嘛那這個東西不是只給我看啊你也是要給全國的社工看給全國的保姆看你覺得你多久以內可以定出這個工作的範圍"},{"start":154.076,"end":170.304,"text":"多久以内可以给我报告工作的范围我们一直有一些工作的办法或者是指引其实一直都有像邹初仰也有一定的办法跟指引在这里所以到底什么叫做"},{"start":171.445,"end":199.159,"text":"就像我們醫療您也是醫師是最清楚的過去因為這個醫療糾紛的時候困擾我們非常非常久所以最後才有去修訂這個醫療法82條那沒關係我想知道說你下午座談明天跟法界那你多久以內會有一個初步的文書文件讓他們可以知道說他們的工作範圍程度在哪裡嗎其實他們的要求昨天這樣訴求是這樣子嗎"},{"start":201.161,"end":226.864,"text":"我們今天下午會再更清楚的了解他們的訴求主要著眼在哪裡那麼會再透過明天的這個法律諮詢那麼來把它釐清看看未來到底我們應該要做什麼樣的規範也好或解釋也好還是要修法也好那麼才能夠確保這些社工在執行他的業務的時候可以沒有後顧之急"},{"start":227.264,"end":242.385,"text":"好那我再跟您索取這個你們的會議紀錄你們討論哪些項目好這個呢因為最近網路上很多人在講說馬鈴薯只要把發芽的地方切掉就可以吃甚至也有人說如果發芽"},{"start":243.226,"end":268.396,"text":"吃起來非常的苦所以你絕對不會再繼續吃所以就很多家長很緊張嘛因為馬鈴薯是一個學校營養午餐很常用到的東西啊然後小朋友也很喜歡吃薯條那我就上網去查說看有沒有一些文章可以知道我們比如說這篇就在講說馬鈴薯發芽有毒聽說只要切掉其他部位還是可以吃是真的嗎那這篇文章就寫說"},{"start":269.696,"end":281.609,"text":"不行 因為高溫加熱也無法去除毒性你覺得這篇有沒有公信力 寫的是不是對的 這些衛教知識應該是這麼說 這有幾塊第一個這個茄鹼 就是所謂的馬鈴薯的龍葵鹼它是對熱穩定 這個毒素是對熱穩定沒有錯"},{"start":290.879,"end":313.695,"text":"那第二個呢 到底是不是用芽來判斷這個龍奎鹼的含量多寡那這個是沒有絕對的關聯性所以我們才會在邊境的部分 我們就會去做抽驗只要龍奎鹼超過200ppm 它就會被退運或銷毀你只要告訴我發芽的是不是不可以吃就好了"},{"start":314.495,"end":341.204,"text":"因為這篇文章只是在討論這個發芽的可不可以吃對可不可以吃你只要告訴我這個如果現在啊這個按照這個我們農業部在邊境的檢驗是5個millimeter啦它的條件是5個millimeter啦這個芽啦這5個millimeter那就我們的條件呢是檢驗啦就是龍葵檢如果驗出200ppm這個就不可以所以整批就會被退運"},{"start":341.664,"end":354.483,"text":"所以你的意思是說農業署以發芽你是以PPM標準的話是要用檢驗來看那我直接告訴你當然要跟委員說明的是說在他這個馬鈴薯發芽到"},{"start":358.666,"end":376.498,"text":"它的表面隨著龍奎鹼它裡面在發芽的過程會釋出龍奎鹼當它的龍奎鹼的濃度越高的時候那它表面上的顏色也會變化好 我先跟你說這篇文章是你們自己寫的衛生福利部食品藥物管理署2016年發布的為了讓全國的"},{"start":381.341,"end":410.282,"text":"關心小朋友的家長可以follow所以當時你們寫了一篇衛教文2016年跟大家講說不行喔 不能吃發芽的馬鈴薯是不可以吃的網路上有人說挖掉就可以吃 不對所以你們最後是建議大家不要買太多 以免它發芽然後要攝取新鮮的 最後一句四 馬鈴薯一旦發芽就不該食用即使切除牙眼或加熱仍然會有切剪"},{"start":410.962,"end":430.205,"text":"那你現在是要怎樣你現在是要下架你的文章沒有沒有沒有沒有衝突啦我剛剛提到的是說從科學上來講我們不會用牙眼跟龍盔繭的濃度去直接做對應這個不會但是對民眾的衛教來講你無法去區分嘛所以你對民眾的衛教就是說簡單的說那當然就是說你這個這個不會因為只是一個牙眼切除龍盔繭就沒有不會這個是對的"},{"start":440.607,"end":460.3,"text":"所以就不要吃嘛 對不對我們現在就是要我們現在以正式聽因為很多人在網路上寫說切掉可以吃好 這邊呢剛你有講到農業化就說不合格就整顆棄置那這邊我們也想問啊因為你早上好像有回答記者說你們現在抽菸就是2%嘛"},{"start":461.401,"end":486.327,"text":"2到10%抽驗就是2到10%那你如果驗到一顆你會怎麼做整批退運或銷毀整批整箱還是整批因為他比如說這一批是這個貨櫃抽出來有那這個貨櫃就是整個退運或銷毀那因為卓院長昨天有說他要一顆一顆逐顆逐顆看你可以幫他解釋一下他這個要怎麼進行嗎"},{"start":487.967,"end":512.685,"text":"我們的抽菸不會一顆一顆驗沒有在一顆一顆驗都是我們抽菸的方式所以卓院長他可能理解錯誤理解錯誤你們的抽菸方式他應該不是指我們的抽菸因為我們抽菸從來不會是一顆一顆驗他應該指的是農業部因為這個外觀的檢視包含有沒有腐敗有沒有發芽那個是用外觀檢視有沒有發霉對所以他剛剛講的"},{"start":516.027,"end":523.97,"text":"不是他對不起農業部說的不合格的就整科氣質他說錯了你講的是整批對吧不是你剛講的不一樣我們是抽驗檢驗超過那個龍葵檢超過200ppm我們是整批"},{"start":533.573,"end":562.19,"text":"那但是那個有發芽的它是單顆嘛不會一顆發芽其他也一定都發芽因為它在噴灑那個易芽劑的時候有時候會不均勻嘛所以它是對那個發芽的那一顆丟棄以前嘛以前我們是整個看到發芽就不要了因為我們會覺得它生長在同樣的一個環境所以這一顆有其他顆可能也有然後我們2018年其實都是蠻嚴格的今年"},{"start":563.411,"end":565.292,"text":"不知道為什麼ART談判完變成這樣子這個是你們跟農業部一起發布的喔你們在講說不合格及氣質如果有發芽腐爛發霉該顆馬鈴薯必須嚴禁進入加工產線所以你現在先記得喔"},{"start":582.278,"end":585.88,"text":"他不能進入加工產線絕對不會進入加工產線OK好那我們來看一下我們來看一下這邊我去翻了一下2025年這個台美就是美國對外貿易屏障的這個報告他裡面就寫到啦"},{"start":598.729,"end":616.851,"text":"他說抱怨說台灣對發芽有限制導致常常整批貨被退美國當時就在這個報告裡面寫說發芽不會構成食安的風險正在跟台灣雙邊協商解決這跟你的衛教文章不太一樣那2026年呢2月他就發表了這個"},{"start":617.992,"end":624.175,"text":"他寫得很清楚你看他的最後一段他說如果馬鈴薯有發芽腐爛發霉入境但是啊入境以後在加工設施內完成分檢還有處置所以他最後寫一個at a processing facility"},{"start":636.562,"end":645.19,"text":"但是我剛剛給你看的你們的海報寫的是絕對不會進入加工產線我比較了美國跟我們自己發布會覺得很荒唐一個說不會進入加工產線一個是美國說我們跟台灣講好了他們會去一個processing facility"},{"start":655.72,"end":660.763,"text":"大家看了會覺得很奇怪啊我們平常去機場大費周章還要拿一個紅卡還要拿綠卡還要被檢查背包看到背包裡面有在機場的邊境就直接把你丟掉了然後現在是發現有發芽這些還要被送去一個加工廠在裡面所以他就入境了不是嗎"},{"start":676.591,"end":700.892,"text":"跟委員說明 我們所有的這個檢驗的比例還有檢驗的標準 還有後面的處置 退運整批的這種做法其實都是沒有變差別的只是在於說 如果是外觀上面那麼出現有這個發芽的情形的時候那麼是拉到一個指定的區域 不是直接進加工廠"},{"start":701.753,"end":715.329,"text":"是拉到指定的區域去魚蟻剔除掉把那一顆丟掉啦那麼在其他的國家也是這樣做不會整批啦這個日本也是這樣做因為我們依賴的是科學的檢驗標準"},{"start":716.61,"end":725.193,"text":"那麼不能夠用一顆代表全部你說你們沒有變然後現在又在解釋你各種的差別檢驗沒有變又在解釋你各種的差別我現在已經很明確的把2025年2026年都拿給你看了美國都已經說你有差了你還說你自己沒有差而且它這邊就寫Processing 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Kacaw等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-6院會付委）\n（八）委員林月琴等22人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-9院會付委）\n（十二）委員黃捷等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員范雲等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第（十八）、（十九）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（二）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（四）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（五）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（六）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（七）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n【第（七）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（八）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-23","start_time":"2026-04-23T09:51:24+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-23T10:07:50+08:00","duration":986,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-5-36-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":0.60471875,"end":0.6215937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.21096875,"end":10.476593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.05034375,"end":11.067218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11.067218750000002,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.52284375,"end":13.227218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14.070968750000002,"end":15.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.28159375,"end":16.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.47971875,"end":26.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.250343750000003,"end":33.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.35096875,"end":31.739093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.98784375,"end":33.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.16909375,"end":34.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.455968750000004,"end":34.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.79346875,"end":34.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.877843750000004,"end":37.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.15159375,"end":39.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.55221875,"end":80.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.31784375000001,"end":113.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.80221875000001,"end":115.21971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.60784375,"end":118.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.88159375000001,"end":132.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.97221875,"end":139.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.12721875,"end":149.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.64034375,"end":150.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.36596875,"end":201.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":183.52971875,"end":183.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.81659375,"end":183.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.64096875,"end":201.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.67034375,"end":219.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.35534375,"end":223.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.19846875000002,"end":238.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.91534375,"end":227.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.72096875000003,"end":229.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.76596875,"end":242.20409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.38596875000002,"end":239.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.79909375000003,"end":257.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.52721875,"end":254.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.04596875000001,"end":255.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.86846875000003,"end":269.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.22221875,"end":261.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.64409375,"end":261.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.13659375000003,"end":275.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.34721875,"end":275.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":280.76346875,"end":281.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.52284375,"end":290.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.32721875000004,"end":320.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":321.26346875,"end":372.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.36971875,"end":370.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.66471875,"end":378.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.57096875,"end":386.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.16034375000004,"end":424.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.28096875,"end":449.36159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.28034375000004,"end":429.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.33096875,"end":429.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.70096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對吧就是那個大陸律師中國律師的那個來台灣那個就是一個出庭的一個民事案件"},{"start":41.924,"end":61.491,"text":"台中地檢署這次對於中國律師雖然有收錢但是因為沒有辦法認定他是出於營利目的去辦理這個訴訟案件所以是不起訴簡單來說是這樣子但是我認為這個樣子的認定真的是合理嗎這待會想要跟大家來請教因為現在根據這個公開資料這個律師其實已經收了五萬塊人民幣"},{"start":63.032,"end":77.019,"text":"而且不是一次收完是分階段收那這個收呢還是照這個案件的進度來收所以呢這其實跟這個案件最終有沒有處理完有一個非常高度的連結可是呢如果他今天說他只是一個法務諮詢那為什麼訴訟會跟收錢的進度綁得這麼緊"},{"start":81.54,"end":101.808,"text":"所以我認為這次不起訴最大的問題是在於檢方看這件事情呢其實是看得太表面只有看名稱這件事情因為對方只要把錢寫成是法律顧問費那檢方就認為這不是盈利的意圖但是民間其實有非常多的律師也認為說那以後是不是就質疑說以後是不是說任何說自己沒有"},{"start":102.068,"end":118.2,"text":"任何一個沒有律師資格的人只要把錢不要把錢寫成律師費改寫成顧問費法務費或其他的名目都可以躲掉律師法的處罰呢那這樣子律師法127條到底還有什麼意義所以我想喔"},{"start":119.3,"end":138.466,"text":"這個雖然說過去有很多號稱法律專業的委員或者是說民間有一些詐團律師是摧毀了大家對法律的信任但是我相信還是有非常非常多法律專業的人應該是被好好的保障那我想請教一下部長跟副司長的意見如果說我們今天在這件事情在不起訴的邏輯上"},{"start":140.186,"end":148.476,"text":"那未來一個沒有我國律師的資格只要掛上法務顧問各種名義他都可以來參與的話那這樣子是不是直接幫非法職業開後門呢"},{"start":151.884,"end":170.542,"text":"謝謝委員的一個詢問那我想這是一個台中地檢署是一個個案的一個處理那當然以法務部的立場我們對個案我們是不干涉不介入不指導的因為個案的話應該依照證據依照實務法律上的一個見解法律上的規定來判斷來做一個判斷"},{"start":173.645,"end":197.583,"text":"因為我沒辦法去干涉個案所以我只能尊重台中地檢檢察官個案的一個判斷另外剛才我也有提到那個律師法127條的那個問題事實上那個意圖盈利這部分當然關鍵是有意圖盈利就是說他是不是在這個訴訟的一個事件裡面他是不是有另外的收賄的一個問題當作那個律師施行律師費用的一個報酬"},{"start":198.263,"end":223.508,"text":"那這部分 那的確 那顯然就是有啊那個我們就講實務上的一個見解就是說行為人若意圖藉由受任辦理個別訴訟事件 個別啦 個案啦而取得相當執行律師業務的報酬那當然這個就是有對價啦這就是有對價 那我想這是實務上的見解那今天那個司法院民視廳廳長他們來 我想"},{"start":226.949,"end":252.752,"text":"待會我也會請教他 邵家廷市法院他們也有 他們這個案件是在台中地院的一個民事的一個事件 那個法官是給有允許他來當訴訟代理沒關係 待會我會問司法院啦 所以我這樣聽起來就是說法務部對於這樣子的一個我尊重他 當然他這個見解 他這個有司法院他們的那個法院的一個實務上的見解剛才我跟委員報告 這都是法院的實務上的一個見解"},{"start":253.693,"end":269.78,"text":"那這個可以做一個參考 這個見解是司法院他們的見解好沒關係 部長我知道了 對我待會會問司法院 我剛剛也有說所以我現在是要做個結論就是說聽起來就是說你們對於這樣子的態度就是尊重啦沒有覺得這樣子 你們就覺得就是尊重啦好沒關係我知道了 那我們請司法院我們請司法院"},{"start":283.144,"end":302.503,"text":"我想了解一下司法院對這件事情的看法我認為法院在這次對於非訴訟代理人的資格審查上面可能沒有把關好了在網路上面一查就知道這個律師其實是在中國職業很多年的律師本來就是長期從事法律的工作而到了台灣法院他又說自己是奧地利公司的員工"},{"start":303.584,"end":320.351,"text":"因為他拿不出充分清楚而且讓人家信服的一個證明文件所以我想問一下是說我們到底在法院上的制度上面有沒有可以事先釐清或是實質審查的部分還是我們會等到他先進入程序之後有人執意的時候才又提出來才來處理呢"},{"start":321.354,"end":338.479,"text":"是 報告委員 目前實務的操作是有法跟執法的依據民宿訴訟法的第68條只要是非律師他要擔任受委任的訴訟代理人 要經過審辦人許可"},{"start":340.259,"end":369.534,"text":"那因此有一個授權執法規叫民事事件委任非律師為送帶領的許可準則那這時候審判長他就必須有相當的調查或者是相當的一個一個審佐的義務啦齁那這裡面第二條第三條都有明定剛剛委員垂詢的那幾個問題所以制度面是有但是呢就是委員問到怎麼去精進這個因為大家都看到沒有查明他是"},{"start":370.578,"end":371.425,"text":"中國大陸的律師"},{"start":372.865,"end":395.672,"text":"因為這樣看起來好像就是變成是審判長當天各個自己來判斷的感覺啦是對所以我們只是在想說因為其實這民間其實有非常多我相信你們一定都有收到民間律師的一些意見對於這件事情的基本上是質疑啦所以我想就是說因為他們也會擔心說這會不會變成境外人士用這個方式來鑽漏洞所以我認為這件事情應該必須要來強化我們對於外國的律師來台灣從事法律事務的一個監管機制"},{"start":402.034,"end":424.398,"text":"特別是如果外國律師要來台灣執行業務的時候呢都必須要登記加入這個律師公會所以我想了解一下就是說我了解那個司法院我想再請教法務部所以對於這件事情的話法務部你們對於這個目前的制度問題上面還有入境審查身份認定等等的有沒有一些具體的強化方案呢"},{"start":425.322,"end":446.459,"text":"那的確是因為法務部是律師法的一個主管的一個機關我們是主管的一個機關那當然我們全立會他對這部分他是認為還要再加強監管就像委員講的那我想這個議題是非常的一個重要那因為這個有跨部會的問題因為不是只有法務部只是法規的單純就還有陸委會我知道所以我是說你們接下來會來跟相關部會來做"},{"start":452.103,"end":461.41,"text":"我們再來做一個研議來做一個規劃處理這個區塊這樣聽起來就是說部長也願意來跟我們相關的部會主管來討論如何檢討強化這個機制嘛對不對那大概什麼時候我們可以來追蹤相關的進度呢需要多久的時間"},{"start":476.601,"end":490.728,"text":"我們是不是三個月好不好三個月喔那因為這個跨部會不是只有本部的事情好了那我希望三個月前後我們可以這個可能要到行政院可能還要到應該這個應該是你們可以先有一個出你們一定會有一個先出稿嘛"},{"start":491.778,"end":517.48,"text":"那那個我們再先召會召會我們才要再三個月吧好不好我們三個月要有這個相關的進度好嗎我們再跟委員報告好那接下來下一個部分是有關於1052條的這個有關於這一次我們講說夫妻如果五年內分居累積達三年的話就可以向法院訴請離婚那我想要具體的請教一下部長就是說"},{"start":519.021,"end":541.649,"text":"這個分居的計算到底是什麼是沒有住在一起就算還是要完全沒有共同生活就算那如果說有人因為工作現在有人就是在兩地工作沒有住在一起或是有人要照顧家長照顧長輩或是照顧小孩他們沒有住在一起那這樣到底算不算分居這個定義上面到底算不算這部分我請市長來回答"},{"start":546.846,"end":564.413,"text":"報告委員 目前我們民法雖然對分居這兩個字是沒有定義但是在相關的法治裡面分居是常見的文字而且在一般社會同齡上是容易理解的那我們還是回到夫妻之間因為我們現在寫是持續分居不是寫持續分居 我們是寫五年內累積分居三年"},{"start":568.755,"end":588.926,"text":"那累積是其實我們要處理 倒不是說今天租一起 明天沒租一起 後天要租一起這種零散的狀態 我們真正要處理的是可能會有數段 比如說可能是一年或是一年半累積起來在五年累積起來之後 加起來超過三年的一個狀況所以法院要開始計算日子是嗎 計算日子"},{"start":589.426,"end":615.534,"text":"其實這不管採取連續制或是採取所謂的累積制都會有這個問題因為我們的立法方向是只要那一天是處於無正當理由而為共同居住的狀況可能就是食物上所講的悲劇那不好意思喔 市長我想請教一個狀態我想請教就是說因為我們把這個表面上看起來是要放寬離婚的自由啦 對不對但是事實上如果有一些比較經濟強勢的他本來就可以住外面嘛 對不對"},{"start":616.314,"end":643.163,"text":"那他住外面然後他可以在因為他更有資源那這樣會不會造成那些相對比較弱勢因為他可能要顧小孩他沒有辦法搬出去住的人而因此被離婚呢這有沒有可能呢因為在你現在講的是他如果去計算的話那他相對來說他不想跟他一起住啊他出去自己外面住那這種會不會造成經濟弱勢的人反而是在一個不利處境呢這個採 無論採連續制或是採累積制都會有這個問題啦"},{"start":644.924,"end":673.544,"text":"那至於說因為有沒有分居有沒有或是所謂不同居其實是一個互相的狀態啦至於說請求的時候會不會有顯示公平我們在1052草案的第二項單數裡面其實有一個苛刻或者是所謂的顯示公平的條款去調解這種可能會產生極端不公平的狀況不好意思我想好我懂你的意思了因為我覺得這個可能在實務上法院上面到底要如何判我覺得也是在舉證上面會不會有一些問題我想請教一下司法院"},{"start":674.964,"end":693.046,"text":"對於這樣子的一個現在要做累積製然後對於在你們一到這個修法之後你們要去計算大家是不是分居多少時間啊這在你們食物上面會不會有什麼樣子的難度你們對這個法條的看法是什麼"},{"start":694.082,"end":713.575,"text":"是 跟委員報告本院有多次的研究跟收集外國立法律那麼認為說這個以持續這個分區就是說以持續的客觀不同住達到一定的年限我們現在把它定這樣那各國立法律都是"},{"start":714.295,"end":740.349,"text":"持續一直繼續狀態中那麼因為這當中如果有剛剛委員舉例的那事實它會發生主觀客客觀怎麼認定非常難所以國外我們找到的立法例幾乎都是以連續不同住的這樣客觀事實所以不是像現在這樣子可能有一段時間沒有住在一起有一段時間沒有住在一起是這樣子嗎所以國外跟我們現在的立法方向是不太一樣的"},{"start":740.609,"end":767.635,"text":"在國外不會這樣子在國外如果當中有中斷就不算了都是持續兩年或持續三年來訴請所以你們司法院目前對於這樣子的方向是意見不同了 對嗎我們是提出這樣的建議啦 謝謝好 了解喔 因為我想這還是會回到到底法院上可不可以實務的執行嘛好 了解囉好 謝謝那再回到 抱歉我再問最後一題就好就是再回到法務部"},{"start":768.752,"end":775.897,"text":"抱歉那我還有一個說法也是對於就是說我們在這一次的1115跟1116條裡面我們把"},{"start":780.001,"end":807.603,"text":"這個尊卿杯跟杯卿鼠尊卿鼠跟杯卿鼠拉得太近了讓我擔心是會讓未成年子女應該有擁有的優先保障權反而變得不夠清楚所以我也想要請教不管是部長或是副司長我想請教一下未成年子女跟長輩在法律上面的保障應該是一樣的嗎可以啊"},{"start":809.16,"end":827.789,"text":"謝謝委員的追尋,按照我們相關撫養的規定,我們目前是把直系血清被清除是放在同一個區域,跟尊親屬一樣放在同一個區域,並沒有去區分成年或未成年所以我覺得未成年一個3歲的小孩跟一個65歲的長輩在法律的保障上應該是一樣的嗎?"},{"start":830.27,"end":858.201,"text":"這個其實是社會淪藏的判斷跟我們社會是不是很凝聚共識所以副市長你沒有辦法告訴我說未成年子女一個完全三歲無法工作無法自立的小孩在法律上面的保障應該回到社會淪藏是嗎各位委員報告我們其實不能只看這一條我們要整看撫養的規定的話所謂的撫養權利人他所受的撫養權利必須是以他不能維持生活且無謀生能力來看"},{"start":859.121,"end":875.795,"text":"那當然對孫親屬有一些部分有放寬但是對於嬰兒來講的話他是絕對符合這兩款所以他享有的撫養權利是比較強的但是你現在是放在同一個位階嗎同一個順序嗎他在117條會另外做處理我們不會只看這條我們會整個體系來看"},{"start":878.317,"end":900.308,"text":"所以你是說你覺得在整個體系來看的話未成年子女的保障上面其實是還有在被法律保障的對嗎你的意思是這樣嗎當然有保障他的優先保障有被保障應該是說還是會看個案的具體狀況因為未成年也分很多狀況未成年也分說他已經17歲了他可能已經在工作也沒有在就學或者是他是三歲的幼兒"},{"start":900.708,"end":927.92,"text":"好沒關係好我想那我就一樣請教司法院啦我一樣請教司法院對於這一個你們自己的看法又是什麼呢因為我自己會認為說把未成年的子女優先保障權其實在這個現在的這樣子的立法上是會被模糊掉的啦是那我不曉得說司法院您的看法又是什麼報告委員我可不可以請我們調辦室專門研究這一部分的法官郭法官很迅速摘要回答可以嗎好可以好謝謝"},{"start":929.383,"end":948.188,"text":"主席跟委員跟委員報告我們那個未成年子女的撫養義務應該要優先所以我們認為要釐清那尤其在1084條到底要怎麼適用現在116都已經成為問題了那在現在這個行政院的版本把它們放在一起更會出現我們報告上寫那種三明治的狀況而且還會只有一個減輕撫養義務的問題"},{"start":950.629,"end":968.221,"text":"所以我們認為這個撫養現在真的建議先不要去修它那撫養要整個檢討因為我們的撫養醫務人其實有點太廣泛了應該要這樣快一百年了應該要做一個檢討跟修正好 了解那我這樣聽起來就是說在針對於民法再一次行政"},{"start":969.562,"end":981.322,"text":"法務部提出的這些修法的版本好像跟司法院上面還有一些要再整合的部分那我也希望就是說兩方應該要一併的整合啦避免說修法之後我們在實務上面判決上面會造成困難好嗎謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168780","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168780","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442c467337269074f0747e947452b276263d3cfaf5c3773194d75006cf0b37b233e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:51:27 - 10:00:00","影片長度":"00:08:33","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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我們台南更恐怖我們台南的水情 白河水庫只剩17.5%曾文水庫只剩16.7%只有烏山頭水庫目前因為可能當時候的一些好大雨下的"},{"start":65.273,"end":90.334,"text":"地方有比較準確一點所以烏山頭水庫它的蓄水量還有53.4%然後南化水庫是38.8%好那我們現在看到這樣的一個水情狀況表示雲嘉南確實是已經有在告急了一點那我們怎麼辦"},{"start":91.618,"end":112.218,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個嚴肅的議題每年到這個時候特別都是一個氣候變遷 旱到都是平反的時候有時候是一手防汛一手抗旱比如說從今天開始未來的三天我們依照氣象署的這個預報可能在我們全台西部地區會帶來一些封面的一些的降雨"},{"start":112.899,"end":131.141,"text":"那當然我們就要做好防汛之外針對於抗旱的工作我們特別要重視特別是現在委員我們南部像台南地區現在的很多的稻米要抽稅了開始要放水了所以委員也注意到說我們曾文水庫跟烏山頭水庫的蓄水率稍微下降"},{"start":131.661,"end":155.399,"text":"但是這個裡面我們除了掌握封面來臨的時候做好跟農業部門的節水的一個調控之外水利署在下禮拜一也會召開了水情會議來去讓我們的這個水情的供應更加的穩定除此之外我再跟委員補充一點過去城門委員會的一個支持我們在前瞻的計畫裡面珍珠串的部分以真穩"},{"start":156.195,"end":178.951,"text":"烏山頭跟南化為例過去南化水庫啊在這個時候常常蓄水量不到2000萬立方公尺那是不是因為透過珍珠串的真穩南化聯通管的工程讓這個南化的這個水庫可以達到3000萬以上的這個蓄水率那當然我們有調度的工作之外管理也非常的重要所以我們在這幾年加強的清淤"},{"start":179.791,"end":205.732,"text":"這也是我們委員過去的支持在水利署才有這部分的一個成就當然我們要密切的注意在未來幾天的降雨因為前幾天在4月初的時候的一個降雨在苗栗的這個地方雖然說是春雨可是它的下雨量時雨量都超過了100毫米左右這個部分是我們要關注的水利署也會依照預測的情形來成立相關的所有的必要時成立應變"},{"start":207.755,"end":229.456,"text":"現在是非常關鍵的時刻就像次長所說的我們一方面要防汛一方面又要抗旱這是現階段非常矛盾的一個狀態所以我們經濟部我們水利署就扮演非常重要的角色因為水情的部分也是你們然後呢防汛也是你們"},{"start":230.377,"end":253.752,"text":"所以這兩個部分到底要怎麼做尤其你剛所說的未來我們所面對的可能是農業灌溉還有我們在產業運作的部分還有民生用水就是說我們當在調度的時候要怎麼讓這三個重要的環節不會互相影響不會互相排擠"},{"start":254.753,"end":279.827,"text":"好這才是最重要的尤其你今天有互相排擠對於民眾他都會覺得自己被剝奪感是是好所以我也希望說市長在這個部分因為我們的珍珠串計畫確實是我們很大的一個期待那我們現在聯通管我們三區聯通管大概都已經完成了好現在聯通管完了之後那麼"},{"start":281.228,"end":309.947,"text":"現在要做試驗囉現在要珍珠串到底真的串的起來串不起來到底是不是能夠達到我們當時候預期的狀況跟效果現在人民就在檢驗了所以我覺得在這個時候未來三天的封面他是不是能夠下載真正需要的地方未知數所以我們是否如何利用封面能夠創造一些更多的"},{"start":310.91,"end":312.26,"text":"一些储备"},{"start":313.536,"end":342.702,"text":"這才是最重要的所以我們不算是下雨來的時候才開始應變所以委員講的各標的這個用水我們當掌握明確的降雨訊息的時候就要做水門的一個調解那過去我們台南漲水工發揮很大的效果那我們也希望利用科技的部分不管是智慧灌溉在關田地區都有很大的一個試驗出來而且以後具體的成效特別是我們要關注的是南部地區因為"},{"start":343.402,"end":345.923,"text":"我們希望說我們中央跟地方政府一定要做好配合"},{"start":366.03,"end":380.212,"text":"是而且我們如何用珍珠串然後又科技造水剛剛我們那個次長有講到的科技的部分我們如何科技灌溉科技造水這個如何聯合運用"},{"start":381.494,"end":403.989,"text":"都是我們現在如何利用高科技的狀態去維持我們目前所需要的用水量所以我覺得這個時間點尤其我們現在預知了未來三天封面我們當然祈求老天爺要下在對的地方可是萬一沒有下在對的地方我們必須要開始防汛"},{"start":405.49,"end":420.495,"text":"那好 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麻煩請審計部陳主席 審計長請主席講 審計長 呃 審計長委員好 聲揚早齁我們外交部有捐助一個民主基金會阿 那個捐助的章程的內容你了解嗎 了解"},{"start":34.008,"end":62.82,"text":"他是為了要主要的目的是因為中共在全世界打壓我們我們有邦交的國家不夠那所以為了要推廣這個外交的工作所以放在國會可以辦一些國會外交所以董事長是本院的院長對不對那他原來捐助成立的目的是為了要推廣民主跟自由嘛那這一次啊台灣中國國民黨的這個黨主席去中國訪問"},{"start":64.833,"end":90.334,"text":"他申請基金會補助申請基金會補助補助要給補助計畫他申請說明書上面說他是去中國推廣台灣民主自由的理念我看全程的新聞媒體從頭到尾沒有講到台灣沒有講到民主沒有講到自由"},{"start":91.53,"end":106.372,"text":"那這樣我想要請教說省進部的立場我們這個補助提一個書面文章所作所為都跟這個書面的表示不相干或是甚至做相反的工作這樣可以申請補助嗎"},{"start":109.204,"end":130.986,"text":"這個基金會它有一些規定,如果你要申請補助或者足行,都要依照基金會的相關規定來處理。這一個部分,外交部是它的主管機關,外交部在財團法人法裡面,外交部要負責查核。"},{"start":131.647,"end":156.759,"text":"如果有問題外交部要給他一些相當的...是外交部查核不是台灣的這個民主基金會這個組織在查核因為他申請基金他申請480萬是向台灣民主基金會申請喔我現在要問你的就是說他申請的申請書的內容說要去中國推廣台灣的民主自由這個制度給中國了解"},{"start":157.939,"end":174.954,"text":"但是我看到整個媒體報導新聞 完全都沒有這些內容我的意思是說 我就是要問你這個問題我的申請 如果有一個人的申請書跟他所作所為完全不相關 甚至背道而馳"},{"start":176.178,"end":190.447,"text":"那這個事情基金會應該要怎麼處理呢基金會要根據它整個族型的狀況來先第一段它要審核它要審核完以後才來進行第二階段"},{"start":191.828,"end":197.75,"text":"如果他同意或者是他不同意外交部是主管機關也要把關第三段如果這個問題確有那個的時候我們也會督促外交部你要好好的來處理那這個案子報導或者去了解他還沒有辦理核銷作業"},{"start":215.857,"end":229.668,"text":"我請教你假設他真的這樣核銷因為現在準的單位現在是本院的院長要當這個基金會的董事長啊那他裡面的董監事如果就給他過了"},{"start":231.4,"end":246.558,"text":"假設啦我現在是假設性問題那你審計部最後能有什麼作為我們這一個案子如果他過了那外交部他再次主管機關依照財產法人法所以你意思是說外交部可以跟立法院的"},{"start":247.8,"end":261.378,"text":"當院長所主持的民主基金會跟他講說你這個使用的項目跟你的作為跟你事實上你的申請完全不符所以外交部可以跟他講說不可以發嗎這是他是主管機關所以外交部要用公文告訴立法院"},{"start":262.642,"end":288.192,"text":"院長所主導的民主基金會不可以補助是這樣的意思嗎這個是要看他的事實依照他的事實來認定他的事實經過外交部認定有一些瑕疵或者是有一些剛剛講的一些假設的問題那外交部要主管機關要基於他主管機關的監督立場"},{"start":290.113,"end":311.02,"text":"那外交部 我再問一個繼續假設性的問題外交部如果已經正式發文給民主基金會說這不符合目的結果民主基金會還是硬要補助 那會怎麼樣那你們總計部能有什麼作為我們會依據外交部的一些發文或查核的結果來處理這些相關的賬戶問題"},{"start":312.961,"end":334.31,"text":"相關賬戶問題什麼問題他就是給他假設退一萬部講說真的給他的480萬然後外交部也根據你現在講的原則跟他審核說因為不符合這個目的那也不符合你的作為所以不應該給予補助可是民主基金會仍然要給他補助的時候你們審計部最後能做什麼處理"},{"start":336.332,"end":355.232,"text":"我們會進行要外交部再督促外交部來做處理如果外交部會做適當的處理我們會給外交部相關的那外交部能做什麼樣適當的處理就是他主管機關主管機關問題是那個民主基金會他就覺得他比你大"},{"start":356.776,"end":375.295,"text":"我們在立法院 多少人講說我就是比你大我要給你要怎麼樣做壞事人不得到制裁你要去制裁外交部我是因為是假設外交部已經正式跟你回答說這不符合規定你不可以補助那台灣民主基金會仍然要補助"},{"start":376.436,"end":402.793,"text":"國家有國家的體制要依照國家的體制那我現在就是要問你國家的體制嘛你們審計部是不是要送監察院還是要移送這個檢調單位處理我是要問你這個啊我要是督促外交部外交部就自然的指責跟他講說這不合法了當然他外交部有不合法但是這個案子堅持在那裡我們審計部當然會去了解啊了解完了以後如果事實就如假設一樣"},{"start":403.593,"end":430.27,"text":"那當然是說有的事我們就會送監察院啊我們就會因為這個如果有不法的我們送檢調啊這個是當然是我們省局部的職責啊中華民國的立法院現在加起來的多數黨立法院的多數黨簡直就是太上皇了你送監察院也沒用了他監察院預算都不給你過監察院的代理院長跟我講說他們很可憐連電梯都沒辦法開因為電費都被刪光了"},{"start":434.515,"end":460.974,"text":"親口跟我講的所以現在就是無法無天啦我現在跟你講我們大家講清楚外交部有他的職權他應該去查核那外交部如果已經據實以告跟他講說查核的規矩查核的結果不符合規定不應給予補助這時候有兩種結果有一種就是民主基金會從善逐流嘛那我就不補助另外一種就是民主基金會說不我仍然在補助"},{"start":462.532,"end":472.192,"text":"因為我的董監事 我人多啊所以我的董監事仍然要補助那補助了之後你給他送監察院 沒關係啊 監察院等於是被他廢掉了"},{"start":474.404,"end":494.348,"text":"所以我來講 我們很厲害啦台灣的國會現在就是 我就是比你大啦就是有人說 我就是比你大國家的體制什麼東西都不重要好 我是要讓你了解說你有可能會面對將來有可能會面對這樣的困境請你回座啦我不是對你回敬我只是說我問的問題該怎麼處理 你要想清楚請回座來 我們請這個 關務署"},{"start":515.516,"end":532.66,"text":"現在這個發芽馬鈴薯這個查核標準有沒有變動報告委員是指檢疫的部分檢疫的部分是農委會房間署不是啊你們不是要配合嗎那不然就請農委會跟這樣的衛福部都一起上來大家一起回答"},{"start":534.915,"end":535.375,"text":"制度的改變"},{"start":551.328,"end":578.946,"text":"因為馬鈴薯進口有三種一種是種薯進來做種那第二個就是鮮食用的第三個就是用加工用的那過去啊這個鮮食跟加工只要驗到有花芽超過0.5公分或者是有其他這個龍奎鹼超過200ppm在衛福部這邊查到這個的話一律退那目前鮮食的部分還是維持本來的做法"},{"start":579.506,"end":606.011,"text":"那加工的部分如果我們發現在邊境外部發現200ppm以上這個馬上就必須要退那如果他的這個有帶土有8種病蟲害那另外就是他的花芽超過了0.5公分以上的話我們會要求這個推運或者是銷毀不能帶土也不能有病蟲害"},{"start":606.351,"end":629.421,"text":"那這一次的改變就是以前整個都退運這一次是不是還要進一步檢驗加工的部分加工的部分對那這個加工的部分標準是不是跟日本的標準相同比日本還嚴因為日本只有驗兩種病蟲害不是啦我是在講那個發芽的部分發芽的部分日本沒有管他不管發芽的部分日本發芽的進口發芽的他也加工對"},{"start":631.024,"end":654.015,"text":"因為他們只要美國提出好 那請惠福布回答剛剛講到那個龍奎鹼在發芽的部分產生了這些的有可能產生的這些的有毒物質要怎麼處理這個部分就是其實那個馬來西亞有沒有發芽跟龍奎鹼的濃度也不一定相關所以我們現在就是說我們其實整個檢驗的標準整個實驗的標準全世界一直都沒有標準"},{"start":654.355,"end":681.669,"text":"一直都沒有改變那這個龍奎減200ppm是從107年就訂到現在全世界有沒有一致的標準目前大概加拿大這邊也有採用這樣的標準只有加拿大嗎還有對加拿大日本有沒有日本不驗因為日本生產很多馬鈴薯所以是日本本身也在處理馬鈴薯這個東西國人關心就是有人會利用這個東西Tenny"},{"start":681.849,"end":699.078,"text":"要求再要求然後再製造台灣跟美國的緊張然後之後再拿這個東西打說政府無能沒有辦法保護人民的食品安全他們的目的是要講這個這是要做政治操作所以請你們要小心回答請你們一定要把這件事情向國人清楚地澄清好不好好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168778","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168778","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be54421bb6a986fa42d01e47e947452b2762635c559c9b7407d71cf0a37585b42538705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:40:24 - 09:51:23","影片長度":"00:10:59","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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邀請公平會邀請公平會主委"},{"start":19.659,"end":46.433,"text":"主要Uber在4月17號宣布要以2.7億歐元來收購德國外送平台的Delivery Hero的4.5%的股權使得它的總持股會達到7%左右但是我們也知道Hero正是Fupenda台灣母公司那Uber本身又有Grab"},{"start":47.213,"end":64.91,"text":"他大概有13.1%的這個股權那而且他還有保有董事的一個席次那換句話說Uber呢同時是國內北收購普遍黨台灣暗中的買方股東那同時他也是賣方的母公司的一個股東"},{"start":65.831,"end":71.135,"text":"也就是說台灣市場主要的競爭者那前年公平會我們才以合併後市佔率過高恐怕會影響主要的競爭者這個價格上漲的這個理由所以否決了那個Uber直接收購Fupenda的"},{"start":86.747,"end":115.159,"text":"在台灣我們做這樣的一個決議但是我們看到現在這個Uber改以入股母公司的方式重新來建立利益的關係那這等於是形成了橫跨買賣雙方的這個三角持股的這個結構所以請教主委在這樣的一個情況之下你是否會認定Grab是獨立"},{"start":115.939,"end":131.953,"text":"的買方那未來你在審查回本收購撫片達的這個案子的時候你是否會把Uber的交叉持股董事席次以及實質利益連結一併來納入"},{"start":133.614,"end":151.1,"text":"才不會去年你否決那今年就放棄請說明跟委員報告一下當然去年的案子跟今年的案子不太一樣至少就是市場結合後結果不一樣當然委員提到這個問題是一個重要的問題那我也一再的表示就是說這個問題我們在審查過程一定會審查那這邊要附帶跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":151.92,"end":167.458,"text":"法律上既然沒有禁止公司可以跨公司來持股所以假設我們要以這個跨公司持股對競爭的疑慮來審查這個案子的話我們必須要有更多的行為面的事證所謂行為面的事證就是說我們要先去預測甚至於去判斷讓他結合以後他會不會用"},{"start":169.64,"end":183.805,"text":"契約或是其他方式對 你講到這個重點了所以大家都非常的關心因為法律上沒有如此那每一個型態 商業行為它的方式一直變在變那我政府"},{"start":184.744,"end":203.073,"text":"永遠都是那一套的一個法律所以大家關心在您剛剛所說的也是一個重點實質的影響力到底是什麼你務必要納入啊對 這個我們會具體如果我們有疑慮我們會具體要他提供一些事證來配合我們來調查看是不是能夠產生實質的影響力"},{"start":204.454,"end":228.894,"text":"因為這個國內培已經在3月27號你已經向你遞交了收購忽偏大的台灣業務的一個申請所以大家看到這個議題一定要好好的以公平消費者的一個原則這個非常的重要接下來本席要請教在海運的部分還有凱旋以及天性"},{"start":229.844,"end":252.427,"text":"那麼現在它從2019年它透過了共同設立管理公司的一個協調航班以及票款的一個拆分那實質已經形成了聯合排班限制航班的供給那三家業者在布袋跟馬公的航線它的市佔率幾乎將近達到六成"},{"start":253.268,"end":257.49,"text":"它雖然沒有共同的來定價它透過了控制班次跟債容量那等於是讓市場去失去了正常的這個競爭機制那所以這換句話說 也反映了產業它不一定是靠聯合漲價來影響市場 對不對對 你講的沒錯啊 我們聯合企業不是只限於聯合漲價"},{"start":278.658,"end":296.723,"text":"那像這樣子 它透過了聯合限量 聯合排辦 聯合分配市場讓消費者他沒有選擇 奶業者也沒有改立即改善服務的這個量人的一個壓力所以要請教主委 像這樣的一個情況你最後 你最後罰了多少 各罰十萬塊"},{"start":304.161,"end":308.965,"text":"你們的財主是最後個罰十萬塊所以這樣子是不是低估了整個聯合限量對於市場的競爭跟消費者權益的一個傷害那未來你是否會重新"},{"start":320.753,"end":342.309,"text":"去檢討聯合行為的一個裁罰標準因為聯合行為的裁罰的級距是蠻寬的啦所以它有最低到最高一定的級距當然但是我們在個案裡面的裁罰我們會綜合各種因素來判斷那這個案子主要原因是因為我們分析後的結果雖然他們是聯合行為但是他們對市場影響的程度並不是太高我們深怕"},{"start":343.79,"end":355.936,"text":"轉了一個彎轉了一個方式讓業者把划環的部分當成是微不足道的他的一個經營成本但是影響到消費者所以現在本期跟你討論的另外一個議題也就是方式"},{"start":362.799,"end":386.258,"text":"因為業者已經將方式有所做調整那你們必須要去討論現在的經營方式那你們的督導方式要怎麼樣去應對這是本席我個人跟你請教的這個議題的一個重點你去盤點你可以怎麼樣去調整去調整你的方式不讓消費者有所損害無從選擇"},{"start":390.543,"end":409.654,"text":"我想對編合行為對業者的宣導我們是積極在做這可能是我們最重要的一點好你去盤點然後方案怎麼樣調整告訴本席順便資料給本席給個人給我那最後一個議題公平會你在115年不公平競爭行為調查當中你編列了今年度的260"},{"start":411.115,"end":415.8,"text":"226萬9千元那增幅是28.26%比起109年到114年那7月底你的這個第21條跟25條的處分只有15件那你才華的這個總額也"},{"start":428.396,"end":457.108,"text":"只有243萬那但是我們討論一個議題也就是營利營運費用跟採購的限制這兩項這對於整個龐大的市場現在是整個市場的一個趨勢那如果是這樣子你的答案告訴我們只有15件只有200出頭外那等於沒有實質的震懾力那所以呢會嚴重的影響到整個加盟交易的一個次序跟"},{"start":457.748,"end":467.974,"text":"保持事業的一個公平競爭所以本席要請教主委隱匿費用跟強制採購在整個這個家門的契約當中會產生資訊不對等的這兩項項目你是否會落實怎麼樣去保障家門主的一個權益"},{"start":477.979,"end":490.33,"text":"我想這個營利費用跟採購限制這些東西都是在我們的處理原則裡面有明確要求業者在加盟契約書裡面要明確揭露出來所以這整個處分安全通常都是因為他該揭露而沒有揭露對 那怎麼辦呢那我們藉由過去這幾年不斷的積極的宣導那你的宣導就是15件啊 跟200出頭萬的滑環而已啊"},{"start":498.124,"end":511.374,"text":"從我的角度來看 所以你現在自己都狼狼上口可以講說問題出在這裡 該揭露沒揭露啊那該揭露沒揭露 你的罰款又是如此 案件就只有15件 那要怎麼辦你有什麼樣的調整方案去監管我們會積極地去監管這樣的一個行為 那當然宣導也是很重要的事情所以趕快去加強 對 那罰款的部分應該綜合考慮好 趕快去加強 最後我請次長"},{"start":528.857,"end":549.764,"text":"市長我們第二階段呢 召委排定了這個土石這個採取法的這個部分那大家非常關心 包括原住民他們應當要有的權益就陳儒剛剛市長你所說的回歸環境景觀就是大家都非常重視在怎麼樣均衡那這個法案呢"},{"start":552.745,"end":566.757,"text":"的決定是很重要的 怎麼樣去回歸環境的景觀所以不只是在這個第三條原住民的這個部分還有特別就是大家比較爭議的在第36條"},{"start":569.439,"end":587.465,"text":"36條 有原先的2000萬也有說8000萬 也有1億的等等所以待會會實質來討論但是我們覺得很奇怪 既然行政部門認為很重要對於我們整個環境也很重要在這樣的一個情況之下 行政院版為什麼還沒有出來 什麼時候會出來"},{"start":590.805,"end":610.156,"text":"什麼時候會出來剛剛主委委員已經關心過我們希望院裡面兩個禮拜裡面可以送出院版這個部分來第二個部分委員所提到的為什麼討論這麼久不但是抓到犯罪人而已不但是裁罰而已我們重要的是委員講的環境警官要整戶回來"},{"start":611.096,"end":629.941,"text":"因為整戶的部分 威爾尼亞只要涉及到很多的單位包括內政部 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Kacaw等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-6院會付委）\n（八）委員林月琴等22人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-9院會付委）\n（十二）委員黃捷等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員范雲等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第（十八）、（十九）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（二）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（四）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（五）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（六）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（七）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n【第（七）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（八）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-23","start_time":"2026-04-23T09:38:39+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-23T09:51:17+08:00","duration":758,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-5-36-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.29596875,"end":10.341593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.852218750000002,"end":10.274093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.341593750000001,"end":10.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.45971875,"end":10.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.56096875,"end":10.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.72971875,"end":10.746593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.746593750000002,"end":10.763468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.763468750000001,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.927218750000002,"end":16.922843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.922843750000002,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.406593750000006,"end":224.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.13096875000002,"end":255.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.21034375,"end":263.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.78721875,"end":300.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.96284375000005,"end":314.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.42909375,"end":317.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.83784375000005,"end":325.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.83659375,"end":332.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.46846875,"end":332.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.37971875,"end":384.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.59534375000004,"end":445.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.80096875000004,"end":455.65596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.06159375000004,"end":454.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.65596875000006,"end":459.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.68971875000005,"end":456.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.84096875,"end":501.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.84846875000005,"end":465.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.01721875000004,"end":467.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.80096875000004,"end":503.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":502.95659375,"end":508.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.66471875,"end":531.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.12846875,"end":519.3759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.47159375,"end":529.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.9565937500001,"end":538.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.27596875,"end":538.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.34346875,"end":539.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.6640937500001,"end":539.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.55846875,"end":574.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.13096875,"end":577.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.7634687500001,"end":577.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.3034687500001,"end":579.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.66596875,"end":581.0034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.0034687500001,"end":581.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.03721875,"end":590.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.79534375,"end":596.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.00159375,"end":593.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.28409375,"end":623.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.1697187500001,"end":688.8515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.9740937500001,"end":728.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.45721875,"end":744.4209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":745.0959687500001,"end":755.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":756.3684687500001,"end":757.4990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.00971875,"end":757.22909375}],"whisper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謝謝我們主席莊昭偉我們請法務部長 鄭部長請鄭部長委員早好 部長早那部長本席今天還是先就這個《民法親屬片》這次的增訂1057條之三離婚後的這個贍養制度的修法方向跟你這邊做一個這個詢答跟討論"},{"start":34.379,"end":49.014,"text":"目前法務部版本的設計是將贊養費請求權與未到期定期給付一律歸給權利人在婚或死亡時來消滅但是本席認為這有一個很關鍵的問題我們在這邊需要來考量"},{"start":53.579,"end":69.269,"text":"也就是在不同類型的贍養費它的法律性質不太一樣所以本席這邊提出來的版本是將贍養費的兩種類型做更細緻的一個處理所以第一個部分是因為離婚限於生活困難所產生的撫養性質的贍養費"},{"start":72.071,"end":99.499,"text":"那麼第二個部分是因婚姻分工導致就業能力減損所生的補償性質的贍養費那本席認為這兩者在法理上應該有不同的處理方式那麼第一類呢也就是撫養性質的贍養費這個基礎在於婚姻關係延伸的撫養義務因此當權利人再婚之後撫養責任已經依法由新配偶來承擔那麼"},{"start":101.28,"end":113.478,"text":"如果人有錢配偶來持續負擔會有撫養利益重疊的問題我想這是法務部的一個看法那也就是剛才其實陳委員這邊有跟部長這邊做一個討論"},{"start":114.707,"end":144.213,"text":"那麼所以這樣的情況下呢規定在再婚時消滅是合理的而且符合制度邏輯那您說國外也有這樣子的大概立法例都這樣那但是第二類也就是補償性質的贍養費那麼本席認為這個性質不一樣這一類的請求權是基於婚姻存續期間的角色分工那麼例如一方投入了家庭那麼犧牲了就業機會導致離婚後在經濟上處於不利的地位"},{"start":144.633,"end":146.115,"text":"那這個不是撫養的問題這是在婚姻當中因為機會成本的補償那麼這個本席認為這類的補償性質的善養費不應該因為再婚而當然消滅"},{"start":159.893,"end":176.632,"text":"否則這個婚姻當中長期不對等的分工所造成的經濟不利這個部分就沒有辦法做一個處理我想這個思考的脈絡在國際上的一個性平等跟實質公平的發展趨勢應該是一致的所以本席這邊請教部長"},{"start":178.194,"end":202.049,"text":"那麼目前法務部的版本將不同性質的贍養費來做一體試用再婚及消滅的一個規定是不是能夠再進一步來區分它的性質就如同剛才本席這邊所講的那如果沒有區分那你是不是認同本席這邊所說的可能會產生一些實質不公平因為過去已經投入的這個時間是沒有辦法再補償回來的"},{"start":203.43,"end":223.371,"text":"那導致經濟上的相對弱勢這也是事實所以對於本席提出來的補償性贍養費不應再婚消滅的這個設計法務部認不認同本席在法理上的一個區別的一個基礎那本席認為這個部分法務部應該可以再納入再來做一個思考"},{"start":224.292,"end":240.485,"text":"那麼最後一個部分是考量我國已經重視婚姻當中無酬的家務勞動跟性別平等的議題那未來在贊養費的制度設計上那麼法務部是不是可以認同我們朝向更精緻一點更類型化來做一個區分而不是"},{"start":241.246,"end":255.613,"text":"一體試用那這可能可以解決我相信應該很多人提出來的這有關山羊肺的這個問題所以是不是可以做一個分類跟分級我這個部分是不是可以做一個參考那不知道部長您這邊的看法"},{"start":256.924,"end":279.08,"text":"了解,謝謝委員,那委員對這個研究的很深,他還做比較細緻的一個分類那的確這個善良會是一個補償的一個性質,那的確委員有講過說因為在婚姻關係程序中,有些有一方因為是分工合作,有些人去上班,有些人是從事家務那家務事實上是在我們維繫一個婚姻是一個非常重要的一環"},{"start":279.74,"end":300.08,"text":"那所以說在不管是兩人離婚或者是裁判離婚那這些一定要算入這整個一個一個報酬包括剩餘財產的一個分配包括善良會的做一個補償我認為這個都是我們現在法務部我們提出的班後來到行政院板都是用這個精神去保障這一些的婚姻的一個的"},{"start":301.341,"end":324.967,"text":"結束後的一個生活的一個問題那當然那為什麼我們會認為是再婚因為再婚他有經營另外一個新的生活了一個新的一個生活那夫妻我在講他夫妻再婚的配偶跟以現在那個再婚的配偶跟你新配偶他們之間有夫婦撫養的一個義務了那我想這個這部分應該"},{"start":326.147,"end":345.306,"text":"如果說要再有離婚配偶再去提供善良會的話是不是離婚的配偶跟新配偶對這個要雙重的一個利益因為究竟就像委員講的既然是善良會是一個補償性的性質我們認為這個有重複的一個計算的一個利益的一個問題"},{"start":351.051,"end":369.037,"text":"為什麼這個在外國的立法例像德國瑞士他們立法例為什麼要把再婚跟死亡當作善養會的一個一個請求權的一個消滅的一個室友這就是就是這樣的一個考量那我想我們外國的先進的立法例他們也實行的這樣也經過多方面專家協議機關代表的一個討論我們是認為這部分吼當然我們非常欽佩委員對這部分有有比較細緻的一個分類但是我們認為"},{"start":377.8,"end":404.02,"text":"在一個婚姻的一個善養會的一個補償性質我們認為這部分我們認為我們是比較保留的一個看法所以今天特別提出來討論就是說本席這邊提出來的事實上也做一個分級啦那在補償其實還有一些更細緻的這個部分最重要就是說過去已經付出的時間跟實際的投入是很難就這樣子的關係就直接切斷的所以本席這邊也提供一個參考您剛才有講到這個"},{"start":406.101,"end":425.144,"text":"也參考了過去像德國或是外國有這樣的一個例子這樣的一個立法例但是重點就是說您可能要考慮一下這些國家它其實在社會文化上就不太一樣在相對的婚姻中間的一個平等關係或投入的這個關係有社會文化的一個很大的影響"},{"start":426.085,"end":449.911,"text":"所以雖然這些先進國家是這個做法可是可能我們要了解這些先進國家本身在社會文化跟性別平等的這個整個歷史文化上或許走得比我們更長久一點所以在我們實際的婚姻關係裡面其實在性別投入家務或投入的部分導致經濟上後續的一個不平等"},{"start":451.111,"end":468.318,"text":"真的有的事實我想在很務實的現在社會狀況會有這樣一個情形委員擔心的我想大家都擔心這個問題啦就是說看起來在婚姻弱勢的一方面因為他沒工作因為我長久沒有我本來就因為很好的工作婚姻而導致的所以說我們那個其實有剩餘財產分配請求錢這部分譬如說有工作人員那邊有職業年金的一個問題啦這部分是可以做這樣的一個平衡的一個做一個"},{"start":479.102,"end":480.203,"text":"你們可能考慮到其他的一些可能性"},{"start":503.018,"end":515.93,"text":"他那個是其實他那個年輕人那部分是可以處理這個區塊啦這個是不過年輕人部分可能也比較難掌握啦本席這邊重申啦這是修法的一個重點啦這樣就是在這個贍養費的這個如何給付還有"},{"start":519.172,"end":538.025,"text":"來 重點就是說如何認定他的性質但在制度上好好的區分一下撫養跟補償才能夠比較兼顧公平我本席在這邊建議法院會不會再做更深入一點這個思考好不好在最後我們再來做一個更深的一個解釋我們那個委員的意見我們都非常的重視所以我們會再做一個思考啦"},{"start":538.685,"end":559.078,"text":"好的 謝謝接下來就是本席這邊再請教一下有關於民法第1052條離婚室友的一個修正方向那麼針對因他方故意犯罪而得請求離婚的一個門檻法務部的版本目前是宣告六個月以上的有期徒刑把它提高了到兩年"},{"start":560.359,"end":577.109,"text":"那這樣子的思維會不會對家庭暴力的防治毒品處理的問題跟性犯罪被害人的保護會不會產生不利的影響那麼部長您可不可以說明為什麼要從六個月提高到兩年那這部分我請那個代理事長來回答好嗎這個"},{"start":581.085,"end":590.772,"text":"主席好 委員好那針對這個問題其實因為刑度的款次本來是只有逾六個月那因為它實在是太寬鬆了所以決定要做可是當你們認為寬鬆的時候剛才本席講的那幾個情形可能會因為時間而產生一些危險"},{"start":596.256,"end":623.553,"text":"因為像我們調整到兩年之後那其實很多室友會跑到那個有關虐待或是其他室友或是在破綻主義這邊會處理不會有漏接狀況尤其是在我們比較最care的家暴的狀況底下其實在第一項的其他款式的有責主義裡面其實很多都可以應用那至於說有其他有可能是屬於破綻主義底下的我們第二項其實也有概括條款可以應用應該是不會出現漏洞"},{"start":625.072,"end":644.881,"text":"市長所以我這邊其實還蠻關心就是說剛才我們講了這個時間從六個月到兩年中間會產生很多高度的風險跟不確定性然後最重要你們是不是有進行過這樣一個量化評估針對本席講的可能性然後最重要是說你們有沒有跟民間家暴防治跟私改會私改相關的這個團體"},{"start":646.061,"end":665.97,"text":"有充分的溝通那這樣最重要就是六個月到兩年之間本席所講的那些情形你們認為不會但在實務操作上你們有過很量化的一個結果嗎還是跟實務上接觸的團體那他們所回饋的一個情形你們有充分掌握嗎這個很重要就是說那這一次的這個修法方向"},{"start":666.73,"end":686.258,"text":"那是不是有機會維持六個月然後來兼顧食物操作跟被害人保護的一個方案那剛才本席講的部分你們是不是應該能夠確實做到跟相關的團體來確認實際執行上跟你們法律修改的這樣一個情形有沒有可能產生一些落差還有實際情形喔 實際情形"},{"start":688.9,"end":710.617,"text":"其實因為我們親屬片的修正的過程其實非常的嚴謹這整個過程當中其實邀請的各位研修委員其實就很多是實務界的專家本身就有實務的審判經驗那另外我們在整個法官推論過程當中其實都有預告跟徵詢相關意見的習慣的動作那這些東西在評估的時候其實我們都有綜合考量過"},{"start":711.317,"end":727.832,"text":"那不過委員您提的我們會再重新再檢視看會不會有漏網之魚不過目前盤點的過程事實上認為應該是在相關的款次裡面其實是應該可以接得住球啦因為我們整個立法方向其實是要放寬離婚的要件而不是要限縮所以"},{"start":728.853,"end":755.716,"text":"那個離婚的要件這樣看起來就是會有這個還蠻長一段時間的一個風險所以本席這邊因為時間的關係本席這邊還是跟你們提醒那整個部分本席這邊討論的是保障而不是提高門檻那對被害者的一個保護不能因為時間的這個提高而產生更多的風險好不好那請那個部裡面這邊還是把本席的這個意見再納入這個後續的一個參考好嗎謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168776","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168776","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be54426856d45216dd46996726ceb1fc8799165c559c9b7407d71c6175e7c94f56e9555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"09:36:55 - 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各位電視觀眾大家早主席有請農業部胡次長好 請農業部胡政次先請我們那個主計總署的陳主計長陳主計長"},{"start":29.343,"end":45.649,"text":"主席總署主要工作是針對社會指標國民所得家庭收入調查及各項物價指數的進行統計但我們今天要討論就是說這個數據本身如果無法反映真實"},{"start":46.249,"end":50.472,"text":"那政府的市政方向是否會產生偏差這個有很大的一個疑慮"},{"start":76.869,"end":102.54,"text":"只增加了0.01倍那這個數據呈現幾乎是完全沒有變動無法解釋這個民眾對於說薪資分配不均身為壓力巨大的感受落差那是不是可以解讀說大眾所關心的這些分配問題已經無法單靠五等分配倍數來展現這是第一個問題第二個問題就是我們家庭收支調查的樣本數從103年以來長達11年都維持在"},{"start":106.681,"end":115.369,"text":"16,528戶那這11年以來全國總加戶數母體增加了超過97萬戶那以桃園為例這個母體戶數這11年來增加了26.48%但是本數卻始終是1500戶"},{"start":127.591,"end":143.908,"text":"那又第17期調查的可支配所得變異數介於1.6%到1.9%那是民國84年以來各期最高的這就代表說統計誤差正在擴大"},{"start":145.051,"end":156.743,"text":"那民眾要知道如何對這份數據有信心那我們身為專業的統計單位嘛那什麼時候要開始著手校正有沒有要校正先問我們主計總署這兩個問題"},{"start":160.543,"end":189.243,"text":"我們一般抽樣的一個案件數並不是重點啦而是說抽樣的一個那個有沒有精準就是那些樣本有沒有精準分層有沒有分層的好不清楚請你大聲一點好不好就是說我們抽樣的樣本數並不是說因為我們是整個22縣市全部去做抽樣那大概如果個額直轄市做差不多1500個樣本這樣子但是問題就是說你有時候增加樣本不見得說對它整個"},{"start":190.063,"end":212.19,"text":"有很大的一個那個所以本身我們目前一般像我們是抽出1.9嘛1.8那但是也都高於每日的一個抽出的樣本那所以這個部分就是看我們分層抽的一個準確度這個部分我們是會加強這個部分那你如果增加樣本數不見得能夠增加"},{"start":213.51,"end":239.705,"text":"那怎麼樣能夠增加準確性啊所以這個部分我們就會盡量來研究那我請我們這個處長跟你報告一下就是說怎樣來改善這個盡量簡短好不好 時間有限其實那個在做調查的時候那個樣本數不是很絕對我們再抽得好的就好所以我們這分層這一部分我們做了很大的精進我們結合大數據的那個內政部那個國土資訊系統那個整個分層我們大概"},{"start":241.407,"end":244.169,"text":"收支調查是政府制定社會福利最低工資還有負稅調整的重要指標"},{"start":265.026,"end":287.312,"text":"那如果說系統性的偏差我們剛剛提到這個部分的話都將會失之毫厘失之毫厘就是差之千里所以在政策的制定如果因為這是偏差那可能就會導致後面整個整個一個系統性的一種不完整性一種敗壞那我再提到就是說像"},{"start":289.412,"end":308.841,"text":"我們看到這四五個執行率連續三年到四年未達八成的基金特別是國立空中大學還有國立文化機構作業基金還有課發基金這三者連續四年執行率甚至不到四成所以連續四年執行率不到四成這代表這些計畫從頭到尾都在亂編"},{"start":312.723,"end":337.066,"text":"你們有經費有編制但是呢這樣子的一個執行率那麼低那根據預設法第66條你們隨時可以派員赴各機關實地調查實際的一個情況那你們到底有沒有去調查有沒有上進督導考核那各種這個基金他會計制度實施狀況的責任有沒有去督導跟考核啦"},{"start":337.426,"end":351.431,"text":"那如果有 為何執行率會這麼低那如果沒有那就是代表說主計總署執行現況完全脫節僅靠資本來管理上千億的特種基金預算來 總長 主委總 呃 主委長"},{"start":353.672,"end":380.903,"text":"我們大部分都有請同仁到各基金然後去做輔導啦如果像這些那剛剛談到的那個科學園區管理作為基金這個部分執行比較困難大部分主要是台中嘛台中那個園區它擴建二期那個局長那個時間有限啦我想說預算不是提款金所以納稅的錢不能亂花是我要求是不是一個月內提出改善報告好不好好那個那個那個"},{"start":383.664,"end":385.667,"text":"先請回主席 我們那個農業部次長來了嗎來 有請"},{"start":399.478,"end":424.786,"text":"來 副市長委員好我們從小這個小時候就被長輩或老師或者是家長告知說馬鈴薯這個發芽有毒 不能吃如果發霉或是那些都不能吃有毒那但是只要說一袋馬鈴薯裡面有一顆兩顆我們基本上整袋就都丟掉了整袋就不敢用了但是現在我們政府告訴我們說只要剔除有問題的馬鈴薯"},{"start":426.286,"end":441.534,"text":"而且加工用的螞蟻鼠這個龍許的那個那個所謂的龍奎鹼的一個毒素龍許只要放寬到200ppm那其實這個龍奎鹼是很毒的他不只是會破壞我們的細胞他甚至還有神經神經的神經毒素啦"},{"start":441.934,"end":466.59,"text":"所以輕則就是嘔吐腹瀉然後痙攣但是如果嚴重的他血液血壓下降發燒還有神經系統的病狀甚至於死亡所以說你怎麼有辦法確認說你發現這一顆丟掉其他的沒問題好 這第一個啦那第一個說 辦法假設這些又流入一個加工端啊流入加工端那到時候誰敢吃 誰要負責啦"},{"start":467.19,"end":491.56,"text":"你們邊境防疫也好,農業部也好,衛福部也好,然後邊境防疫讓他進來,然後到了加工端,那這樣子你要告訴國民說沒問題,沒問題拿掉了,我們一年從美國進口五億顆啦,五億顆,那有多少人可以去抽檢,有多少人可以去檢查,有辦法五億顆都看過嗎,這我不相信啦,這我不相信,沒有人做到滴水不漏啦,"},{"start":492.84,"end":509.668,"text":"還有外部說文宣上面說會進行市場沖運我們要等到他聯絡市場聯絡加工端變成食品之後再去沖運那這樣子到時候這些本來是美國業者要自行處理的問題"},{"start":510.828,"end":538.347,"text":"現在跑到我們台灣之後然後由於我們台灣政府要擴置人力、物力然後去抽撿然後我們的基金人員還有我們台灣的加工業者我們台灣的人民變成白老鼠變成有這個中毒的風險他本來是他們國內美國要自己處理的現在變成我們台灣要幫他處理所以我們台灣現在我們的農業部、衛福部還有我們這些部會所長好像是在替美國服務咧不是替我們台灣人服務咧"},{"start":539.767,"end":564.253,"text":"這個部分我想時間有限啦我們台灣的食品安全不可以一退再退啦縱使要討好美國也不可以一退再退啦這個部分我想時間有限我就要求我們農業部這個部分跟我們外部要從實要怎麼樣能夠完全的檢測這五億顆的馬鈴薯要怎麼樣滴水不夠做到你們可不可以提出一個說法"},{"start":565.629,"end":587.935,"text":"在檢疫的部分農業部是負責檢疫啦那剛才委員你講到農奎檢農奎檢那是衛福部因為這個是食安的問題在檢疫的部分我們是針對三樣一個就是說你這個進來你有沒有八種病蟲害第二個有沒有帶土第三你有沒有花芽花芽有沒有超過0.5公分市長我知道農業部有農業部的職責衛福部有衛福部職責"},{"start":589.915,"end":591.076,"text":"我們要做到低水不漏"}]}},{"id":"168775","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168775","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be544260dd4be807d7087447e947452b2762635c559c9b7407d71ce901f84a635eded85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:31:41 - 09:40:20","影片長度":"00:08:39","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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趕快先過來因為下個委員在等 謝謝來 接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做詢答主席 在場的委員先進烈士業政務協會首長 官員會長 工作夥伴媒體及的女士先生有請公平教育委員會陳主任委員好 我們請陳主委"},{"start":34.073,"end":59.91,"text":"主委好,這個外送平台引起矚目那它的店、客、員要兼顧各方公平那跨市場的聚集之後的結合審查要跨部會呢我們來看一下,來,Grab那Foodpanda伺服是貨呢,報紙報導說這個呢,當這個消息曝光啊消費者擔心外送費會漲價但是呢,外送員擔心會被剝削這個引起兩方的擔憂,再往下看"},{"start":60.47,"end":82.795,"text":"那麼這個非常的複雜跨國公司交叉投資怎麼樣公平會怎麼樣檢視這個股權結構呢我們看一下就上次被駁回Fupenda併購之後這個Grab它是有入股UberUber又去入股Delivery Hero但是Delivery Hero又是Fupenda的母公司Grab現在要併購這個Fupenda"},{"start":84.815,"end":112.156,"text":"好啦 買家跟賣家和對手你中有我 我中有你請問公平會怎麼樣去判斷這些複雜的股權結構還是是資本併購還是具有影響力那個跟委員報告一下我們對於這個背後的股權將它持股這些事情我們在審查的時候都會審不過跟委員報告就是說法律並不禁止事業可以做跨國跨股所以當我們要以這個理由來質疑它這個結合的時候我們需要有更具體的事證這個事證包含"},{"start":112.816,"end":126.471,"text":"他們在過去是不是曾經有利用這種交叉持股的方式來做一些限制性的行動很好 很高興公民評委注意到因為這是在我看到媒體有一個王博士這樣寫好 往下看那麼除了這個資本併購是一個考量之外聯合行為啊 財團的資本呢 複雜"},{"start":128.914,"end":151.477,"text":"如果說今天台塑跟中油的董事長拿起電話說明天油價我們來定個什麼價格這是聯合行為很好抓嘛但是如果有A公司他吃又假公司跟乙公司的股權分別都兩邊都派有董事這兩個董事分別在各自的這個董事會提出的意見做了同樣的決定糟糕了這是不是聯合行為會不會有利益綁定你們怎麼看"},{"start":152.297,"end":179.416,"text":"同樣如果有具體的事證 這也有可能構成聯合行為雖然他是少數股權 跨公司的少數股權 是不是讓我們聯合行為的判斷更為複雜更難當然當然 這一直都是一個問題 對是 好 那往下看齁 那麼現有的法律呢要如何平衡四方的交易公平 舉例現在法一個什麼 一個外送專法 對不對外送專法 外送員很重視對於負面的或不利來講 外送員他付出了勞動力 得到了酬勞"},{"start":181.877,"end":205.943,"text":"但是呢他仍然擔心他的權益那就這個平台業者來講呢因為他掌握了資金流跟資訊流可是他還抱怨怎麼樣成本增加同樣的消費者他說我要取得你的外送服務我要付費用那店家也是這樣子啊你讓我曝光有被消費者訂購的這個機會但是你要跟我抽成他們也擔心當你外送平台抱怨成本傷害的時候消費者跟商家都要負擔這個轉嫁的成本主委怎麼看"},{"start":209.176,"end":237.763,"text":"這個就是平台經濟的特色同樣既是共生但是彼此之間存在潛在利益衝突所以公平為的職權有限我們大概只能夠針對他對市場競爭這一塊很好你說職權有限所以我們來看到其他國家的做法剛剛趙也提到了新加坡的模式新加坡有一個公共交通理事會PTC他決定公共運輸的票價他是獨立機關有各界人代表專家票價的調整公司要考慮到CPI工資變動能源價格生產力的提取率"},{"start":238.243,"end":265.937,"text":"還有容量的提升指標等等等廣大社會各界之後呢他所做的費率決定他才能夠獲取勞工的信任也能平衡消費者擔心成本轉押的問題那你認不認為類似的案例政府要不要介入制定費率當然這涉及到跨部會事實上以目前台灣我目前的法治架構其他部會也是有在介入這個案子只是說也許不是像新加坡這麼全面性的是像勞動部他有定義一個費用碼那這樣會造成市場的不效率"},{"start":268.719,"end":291.74,"text":"從當然每個機關看有它各自的職場目標的實現那從公平會角度來看某些的行為我們會提醒部會可能要注意到市場的反應好 那往下看所以現行公平會的審查機制是完善你看你們考慮市佔率 考慮消費者利益對不對 這寫得很清楚啊但是除了市佔率為重點 除了消費者之外勞工跟商家的溢價能力如何保障以這個富培拿這個例子來講"},{"start":292.461,"end":304.62,"text":"Grab這個事情來講你說這個平台業者未來的這個交叉投資還有跨市場的這樣的情況那你怎麼樣只有現有的條文 現有的機制夠嗎只講到消費者利益夠嗎"},{"start":306.431,"end":325.643,"text":"我想譬如說以勞工為例好了勞工的議題當然勞動部他有他關切的焦點以我們的角度來看我們可能會去界定一個勞動力需求的市場然後在這個市場裡面去觀察平台跟勞動力的供給彼此之間的供需的情況一樣回歸到市場精神的機制來審查這個議題一樣可以審但是我們的切入點跟勞動部不會一樣"},{"start":326.664,"end":348.646,"text":"我這樣講有點比較原則比較像在課堂上討論來我們看很具體的企業呢已從市場壟斷進化到生態系的建構我們看到這個超級平台不管是Apple還是Google還是呢這個Amazon你看在美國FTC通通把它起訴壟斷在歐盟呢有數位市場法禁止它壟斷數據剛召委在執行會也講到"},{"start":351.048,"end":376.583,"text":"數位市場法要求開放真的Amazon禁止使用第三方賣家的非公開數據像這些做法公平會都有去蒐集嗎這是在4月執效一個余教授提出來的新考題啊那個跟委員報告一下我們最近發布的這個AI生存式AI的政策聲明裡面我們特別點出未來的競爭太陽可能會逐步走到生態系的競爭這是委員這邊所談的所以包括數位支付商戶的關注但是我要跟委員報告就是說當生態系競爭成型以後"},{"start":378.544,"end":389.954,"text":"那個競爭的對手就會有不一樣對沒有錯就很複雜就越來越複雜往下看所以呢公平會就不應該侷限單一市場的壟斷與否而是因應全球市場的趨勢像你說這樣的一個生態系的情況那麼用龐大生態系跨市場的企業檢視它水平垂直跨市場的影響力再來判斷它是不是會有壟斷會有聯合行為是不是這樣子"},{"start":399.762,"end":419.992,"text":"對這是一個困難的問題但是我們是朝這個目標好那就要求你做因為我們在預算審查所以說今天我們看到以這個來講以這個外送平台來講在資本的部分你們要審查它有沒有要跳脫市佔率的考量要判斷它有沒有實質利率的連結有沒有跨市場優勢這裡面要審查在資本資本端你們要這樣審查就是平台嘛"},{"start":420.592,"end":438.711,"text":"那勞工端呢你們是不是要判斷要不要訂定費率的介入要去評估那目前執法的制定勞動部做了要求確尊專法也有勞動部介入了以商教的部分未來的法人審查演算法可能速發部要接起來但是像房大售啦自我優待啦或強迫折扣是不是公平會也要來對這幾個"},{"start":440.433,"end":461.885,"text":"我說的橘色的這個議題你們要不要評估搭受自我偏好強迫折扣這些東西公平法裡面是可以來審查的所以除了這樣的話其他我紫色的部分是不是要跨部會合作或立法協助我們其實在案子審查當中我們會徵詢其他部會的意見所以實質的跨部會合作是有在做有在做好那最後結論"},{"start":463.246,"end":489.619,"text":"因為以你們剛剛報告您的報告當中有提到你們的有一個反托拉斯基金當中你們的用途是做數位經濟競爭政策研究及倡議計畫對不對是那我希望你們這個計畫在今年的年度要研究公平委針對第一複雜股權交叉持股委的壟斷跟聯合行為的審查方式第二如果市場形成寡占政府要不要介入制定費率制定這兩個部分特別去研究可以嗎"},{"start":490.764,"end":515.731,"text":"我們可以回去研究一下另外我希望公平會在審查GREP的結合案審查完畢之後我們沒有要干預你們審查完畢之後希望你們提一個書面說明說明你們在審查的結果有沒有考量到加沙石穀、跨次財、生態系的優勢勞工的權益如何保障以及商家的保障可以嗎這個我們可以我們要大家看個案的證據當然審查完畢之後我說你們審查完畢之後就這幾個部分出個書面說明可以我可以跟委員說好謝謝公平會"}]}},{"id":"168774","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168774","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442ad738f9a00ecd9106e07bf52eec0dd495c559c9b7407d71ce901f84a635eded85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"09:24:20 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這個就是我要告訴你的齁按量暴增但是我們的人員其實並沒有等同比例的增加另外一個更糟糕的情況是這個整個離職率啊"},{"start":171.838,"end":198.211,"text":"它還是維持在一個這張圖表你看一下你的禁用率你的社安網其實禁用率八成其實平均有的縣市根本不到八成然後離職率呢還是維持在13.9也就是說你的人力根本跟不上你現在案件增加的速度這個是為什麼第一線的社工他們現在壓力暴增壓力倍增"},{"start":198.951,"end":226.7,"text":"那有些人他其實很願意在這個領域奉獻昨天這個社工他們的抗議裡面有一個資深的社工他是帶著錯氣的聲音在講他的心路歷程我不知道部長今天看到這個新聞嗎看了讓人家覺得很心酸他很熱愛這份工作他也願意工作但是他們現在普遍感到惶恐的是就是如果做不好的話他其實是被判刑的"},{"start":227.165,"end":244.799,"text":"他會被上銬的就是說他從一個社工的助人者他可能會變成是整個最後要背鍋的那一個人所以為什麼有萬名的社工連署昨天有1600名社工走到行政院發出怒吼"},{"start":245.66,"end":273.718,"text":"因為他覺得他就承擔了所有的社會安全網好或不好孩子的生命有沒有保障他要站上那個保證人的位置對他們來講何其沉重非常非常的沉重啊所以這樣的一個怒吼不是沒有原因案量這麼大然後要背負的責任這麼多不是他認真做就好他還要擔心他認真做的過程這個家庭不能有任何的散失跟風險啊"},{"start":274.699,"end":302.308,"text":"只要是他接觸過的會不會說這是你接觸過的你要負這個保證人的責任在這樣的情況底下他能安心工作嗎我覺得昨天這些社工他們上街他要的是一個安心的環境是一個無害的環境是一個不要被無止境被救責的這樣一個環境但是我們國家有提供給他嗎以他們昨天的憤怒跟怒吼他覺得國家沒有保護他"},{"start":303.345,"end":324.054,"text":"那這個就是整個政府要去思考的問題啊所以在昨天他們談的部分你看到這些離職率事實上他們昨天的訴求我認為是政府應該要去正視的就是特別是像兒保的社工他們風險更大我想在座各位這個彩虹市長大家都知道兒保社工的這個異動"},{"start":325.935,"end":347.324,"text":"現在是很怕補不到人因為那個扛的壓力因為這些家庭它就是高風險的家庭你真的很難保你去仿視了這個家庭之後下一秒鐘接下來的一天孩子可能突然家長的憤怒或什麼或一時想不開把孩子帶去哪裡了"},{"start":348.342,"end":369.661,"text":"那如果是現在司法體系對於社工的職業的不了解他動輒用這麼重的把他放到一個保證人的位置的話我覺得這一波你會讓很多就是有心想要從事社工的人他可能會卻步或者是灰心那這個對我們整體的社會安全網跟保護體系其實是一個傷害"},{"start":370.822,"end":386.896,"text":"我不知道你們有沒有警覺到這件事情這件事情沒有好好的處理你沒有辦法給社工一個安心的話我覺得對他們來講就是他雖然很想投入助人工作但是助人工作如果付出的代價如此之沉重我覺得有些人真的是會打退場鍋所以我覺得我們應該要來解決這樣的一個問題"},{"start":391.6,"end":409.351,"text":"昨天這個他們在訴求裡面我們來看接下來這一張就是國家重建一個合理的制度是他們一個很重要的訴求就是怎麼樣去盤點還有界定保證人地位不會讓社工去踩雷"},{"start":410.351,"end":429.979,"text":"這件事情是他們昨天一個非常明確的訴求因為像兒保社工我覺得他會遇到翠家的社工也很容易遇到啊因為他們的家庭結構本身就非常的不穩定嘛那你今天這個如果是司法單位他們可以是這樣子就說欸你是保證人所以"},{"start":430.579,"end":444.775,"text":"就是你要負最終責任嘛那這件事情我們應該是要好好的討論不要讓社工就是這樣子惶惶不安嘛那部長你打算怎麼做昨天這個訴求其實非常的清楚你打算怎麼做"},{"start":445.816,"end":471.654,"text":"這四點我們都很認同 應該要來處理所以第一個呢 法律責任的釐清我們明天已經在部裡面邀集相關的 明天嗎對 明天下午那有邀司法單位嗎有有有 一起大家都幾個重要的那個背景不同的背景 法律司法還有社工專家一起來那麼就這個法律見解的部分來進行討論你們邀集的成員大概有多少人"},{"start":473.138,"end":475.025,"text":"我們是不是詳細的再提供給您參考我希望這個規模"},{"start":479.854,"end":494.626,"text":"範圍其實是要多的另外就是在比例上面是要恰當的而且這一些相關的就是職業工會社工的職業工會就是他們是第一線的還有社工專協團體的話是今天下午我們會先討論他們聽聽他們的意見他們的訴求然後明天才是這個法律專門針對法律的討論那那個法務部有派代表嗎"},{"start":507.014,"end":512.78,"text":"有邀請法務部嗎有邀請因為法務部很關鍵啦檢察官就是其實邀請法務部嗎有邀請嗎法務部請"},{"start":519.352,"end":540.394,"text":"要出席法務部我主張就是要出席因為司法體系這邊還有司法院法務部跟司法院都應該要出席我們來確認一下那個出席對今天有出席的法務部就是請你們要派員出席因為這件事情我覺得每一個社工他現在心裡的惶恐就是下一個會不會是我"},{"start":541.295,"end":554.744,"text":"下一個會不會是我所以才會那麼多人站出來那我覺得這件事情真的是政府的責任我覺得就是要讓社工非常的安心一個助人工作者還要每天提心吊膽"},{"start":556.175,"end":570.2,"text":"真的我覺得這個我們對不起這一些基層的社工安心的職業環境這個是我們一定要去做我的看法跟您是完全一樣的KPI我們把它廢掉了已經廢掉了嗎已經廢掉不再用再通報率什麼時候廢掉社安網2.0的計畫我們就把這個KPI拿掉有拿掉了這個也是被詬病的"},{"start":579.963,"end":597.254,"text":"因為這些家庭的問題就是它是會反覆出現的然後你們之前是用再通報率然後來作為是你做得好不好的一個指標結果造成實務上有些人就把案子hold在手上他不敢再開新案了"},{"start":598.675,"end":618.115,"text":"這樣子我的KPI可能會好看一點這個都是本末倒置的做法第三個 合理的按量這個是我覺得你們應該要認真去思考的一個好的工作環境 合理的按量你才可以讓這些保護性的社工久任要不然風險又高 按量又大"},{"start":619.036,"end":647.315,"text":"然後又有司法的風險這個雙重多重的壓力底下這個是留不住人的最後強化網絡的合作這一次我們也看到就是司法體系對於社工的職業環境有沒有那麼的理解這是這一次很多社工他們提出來的他覺得是不夠理解所以你明天這個會議是一個好的開始但是我覺得你要建立一個是讓司法人員對於整個社工的職業環境跟體系跟他的執掌有一個清晰的脈絡跟了解"},{"start":649.116,"end":675.731,"text":"如果沒有這樣的了解他可能會誤判或他以為的正義可能跟實際上的情況他可能是兩件事情他不夠理解做出的判斷所以這個強化網絡合作我希望你們也可以做因為我也很清楚過去也是在醫療上也有類似的情形所以辦了很多的依法論壇讓這個醫界跟法界這邊能夠有對話的機會那我想這個社工的工作性質其實跟醫事人員很類似"},{"start":678.172,"end":704.127,"text":"也是助人的所以未來我們也來強化這個對話好那我希望這四點你們都要做我們要還給社工一個安心的職業環境最後一個我要問的是有關於兒少全法的修法昨天是這個今天教育部有代表來對不對我們請那個副署長一起上來昨天是那個全教總他們發了一個新聞稿"},{"start":705.348,"end":725.355,"text":"也一樣感到焦慮喔那他們的焦慮是對於兒少全法72條的修正他們覺得有些地方是模糊的會造成跟他的管教權在學校管教權產生一些的衝突那這個部分我不知道之前在修法的時候那個教育部有沒有參與72條修法的時候"},{"start":727.997,"end":735.318,"text":"有沒有邀請教育部出席你們沒有表達你們沒有去蒐集基層教師的意見然後去反映相關的意見跟看法"},{"start":737.274,"end":761.62,"text":"在比較早一個階段的時候其實我們有被邀請但是後來的這一個版本的後半階段我們好像比較沒有參與不過因為現在是公告他有一個月的期間教育部這邊會收集地方政府還有我們相關教育團體這樣團體的意見我們會跟就是收集意見然後我們也會提供給衛福部"},{"start":762.1,"end":778.181,"text":"好这个因为其实教育部你们在你们有这个关于教师的管教权你在教师法的32条教育基本法第8条第15条你还有个辅导管教办法事实上你本身就制定一套针对学生的管教办法"},{"start":778.641,"end":801.922,"text":"那你們現在應該要去釐清啊就是說對於學校老師在教學現場他是要優先去適用你這一個管教辦法還是說兒少全法他是更上位他這邊會去凌駕到你的這一個學校的相關辦法他們現在到底應該適用哪一個因為你在你的學校的輔導管教辦法相對是比較明確而且比較細的"},{"start":803.663,"end":826.732,"text":"那現在為什麼這個全教總他們覺得這個新修訂的兒校全法讓他們會無所適從就是文字有一些模糊的空間那這個要怎麼處理我們會收集意見因為4月21號公告我們昨天大概署內相關的主事還有我們也會發文給地方政府"},{"start":827.352,"end":853.398,"text":"昨天剛好有一個跟地方政府的會議我們也都把這個訊息給地方政府請他們就是要特別關注這些的議題那我們會會長收集之後我們再跟衛福部一起討論好我們兒少權法去給這個兒少就是更好的權益保障這個是支持的但是大家要注意在修法的過程當中譬如說像教師的部分跟他的管教權如果有所漢格"},{"start":854.258,"end":859.039,"text":"或者是有衝突的地方那我覺得這是主管機關的責任一樣你要給教室一個安心的這個教育現場管教的環境啊而不是讓他覺得我如果萬一我們在兒童全盤有一些太模糊的他會擔心也是動輒得救的問題因為這當當中有提到就是比較細微的像偏心忽視他就很擔心一個老師"},{"start":877.424,"end":900.813,"text":"班上几十个学生偏心如果也要算的话感受的问题那个感受太模糊了所以我希望这个部分你们也要尊重就是在教育现场这些老师的意见然后做出一个合理的修法的调整好不好好我们会跟卫福部一起讨论好谢谢好谢谢王玉明委员发言接下来请陈金辉委员发言"}]}},{"id":"168773","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168773","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be54422bfbe6fd683806ad6e07bf52eec0dd495c559c9b7407d71cab1e007f00cecbda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:07:12 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且經常都有它的緊急性所以在過去我們也因為醫事人員的這種特殊"},{"start":237.425,"end":253.764,"text":"這個工作的特殊性修訂了醫療法82條去明訂了那麼這個醫事人員在過程當中那麼如果有一些不如預期的結果那麼是以故意過失且違反了注意義務跟"},{"start":255.826,"end":272.941,"text":"專業考量財富形式跟民事的責任那我想社工特別是保護社工也好或者是我們很多的這些脆弱家庭協助的這個情況跟醫事人員其實相當的類似他們所面臨的挑戰"},{"start":274.122,"end":297.23,"text":"不確定性跟它的急迫性經常是有的所以我們也很希望這個各界給予我們社工支持那麼對於這個法律見解上那麼我們也在明天會邀請很多的專家大家共同來討論那更重要的是在我們兒照"},{"start":299.29,"end":320.759,"text":"現行的兒少法裡面第五條也很清楚的去明定當兒少遭受不法權益侵犯的時候那麼國家是負協助跟保護的責任也就是說這個是國家的責任這個完全是正確的那麼因此透過"},{"start":322.239,"end":336.909,"text":"每一次的不幸個案的討論跟改善來提升我們對兒少所以從這個案子發生之後這個案子最主要是脆弱家庭跟收出養這個中間有一個gap"},{"start":339.731,"end":369.231,"text":"那過去呢 收出養呢那麼不見得是由地方政府介入它可以透過這個收出養的媒合機構所以在這個事件之後呢我們已經重新調整同時也入法未來在這個收出養的過程當中呢那麼地方政府必須扮演一定的角色那麼包含這中間如果涉及到安置的時候也要走入安置的程序當然這裡面最重要的還有一塊就是因為跨體系或跨系統或跨區域"},{"start":369.611,"end":387.721,"text":"所以資訊的串接是非常重要所以在這個事件之後我們也已經建立了脆弱家庭的一個資訊平台那另外社安網也去嘗試串連34個系統那麼就是希望讓這個資訊能夠串接的不要漏接"},{"start":389.101,"end":411.869,"text":"資訊能夠串接的好那至於說人員上剛剛您特別提到是不是要固定一組我想這個我們再跟地方因為這個過去都是地方分工啦他怎麼樣分工的問題我們再來持續的來討論部長我想你剛回應我覺得也很重要所以可能給你"},{"start":413.11,"end":432.507,"text":"這邊兩個建議第一個是不是針對於制度到底清不清楚這些東西甚至對於我覺得這次的事情引起我覺得社工界一直長期以來擔負這麼多社會問題來協助政府去解決的時候應該要讓他們相對應的事實上是被"},{"start":433.715,"end":459.765,"text":"能夠去有資源去到位的去協助他們所以我建議是不是應該接下來我覺得衛福部應該要去傾聽社工的聲音能不能召開北中南東的一個座談也好論壇也好讓大家把他們過去現在碰到的問題地方政府和中央政府甚至他們在民間碰到的一些問題可以跟你們畢竟你是中央最高的主管機關"},{"start":460.726,"end":477.568,"text":"來做處理那後邊呢我們也希望說能夠來討論制度我覺得這才是真正解決一直以來沒有很明確的東西然後只是講說那丟進去去做然後呢做了之後當發生問題的時候你要社工去承擔我覺得這坦白講"},{"start":478.709,"end":497.33,"text":"沒有一個明確的指引的時候然後看誰比較不幸的碰到一些事情的時候要去承擔我覺得不是一件好事所以我今天為什麼會去問這個收支局長我也希望說你們不會因為回到政府部門之後這中間如果沒有連接的話還是同樣問題不好意思今天我就會花比較長的時間就是"},{"start":499.733,"end":517.962,"text":"第二個問題就是你的一組織多協力在實務上的運作我一直看不懂因為社安網長期長調一組織多協力這方向是正確的可是關鍵在於這套機制是否真的能夠到決策的層次如果你講我組織我醫療組織我就組織嗎你講我社政組織我就組織嗎你講我警政組織我就組織嗎如果我不組織的話誰會對我怎麼樣 不會甚至你叫我這個社工組織"},{"start":527.046,"end":533.591,"text":"那我就主責嗎如果我不主責會怎麼樣所以我覺得這個我真的看不懂說那到底為什麼誰規定了誰主責那最後就是什麼很願意承擔的人去主責主責如果發生事情的時候他還要去承擔更多的責任義務所以我不太懂"},{"start":547.78,"end":568.825,"text":"一直以來每次在處理這個所以我想請教部長在兒少保護跟收出養的案件當中組織單位的權限範圍目前該怎麼去界定醫療教育警政司法心理衛生跟民間團體等協力單位在什麼樣的狀況之下要實際介入這些協力單位是只提供資訊嗎還是要參與共同評估跟決策"},{"start":569.645,"end":598.196,"text":"可是最後就是認真的人好像你去做了然後最後就是你去承擔所以如果協力單位都沒有機師回應甚至沒有做一些決議執行的時候有沒有追蹤回報或者處理機制那他不回報我們也沒關係嗎反正那到底誰規定了這個主責那他就要去承擔什麼樣的責任對高風險的案件如何建立跨體系的共同決策的流程明確的規範召集機制參與對象跟後續的責任這些都有定嗎"},{"start":599.136,"end":618.917,"text":"有很清楚的讓誰知道我甚至我要進一步的去緊張衛福部去年7月就已經提出來一組織多協力的分工原則可顯然最大的問題是我們到底要怎麼讓制度從原則走向實際可操作的流程好 跟委員說明這有兩點第一個組織不代表所有的責任都是他"},{"start":620.138,"end":635.826,"text":"因為很多的個案需要跨域的合作所以各自要本期他的責任去完成並不是說主責的就是所有的成敗或所有的責任他一個人扛 並不是這樣第二個 因為在社安網裡頭我們的對象很廣 我的報告裡面對象很廣"},{"start":643.149,"end":660.53,"text":"那麼他可能有一些是精神個案有些是脆弱家庭有些是這個保護個案那有些是要酒飲那個都有不同的所以我們所講的一組折多協議期的概念是說他可能有不同的category"},{"start":661.05,"end":676.983,"text":"那但是進來之後大家要一起幫忙啦對那這個大家一起幫忙大家一起幫忙的時候怎麼辦呢有誰可以誰是主要的那個上頭的那個要我主責然後我主責我要去協力其他人的時候其他人不配合我的時候我怎麼辦我如果這個社工我怎麼辦我怎麼去做處理"},{"start":681.026,"end":700.077,"text":"似乎沒有一個這樣那就是自己持續做下去所以第三個問題就要來問的是說那這次的整個的我覺得社工的工作範圍跟責任分工是什麼如果這次現行的制度發展已經讓社工在某些情境上被納入保證人地位的"},{"start":700.957,"end":719.147,"text":"這樣的討論的話我們就必須更清楚的回答一個問題在這樣的法律框架下社工的工作範圍跟責任分工究竟是你是如何界定的因為目前最大的困境在於社工的實務工作高度多元包含兒少保護啊最後家庭的服務啊 收出養啊居家托育啊各自的工作內容"},{"start":719.787,"end":744.993,"text":"介入的深度跟可運用權限都有很大差異可是在責任認定上這些差異是否有被清楚的反應那事實上是有落差的所以如果工作範圍沒有被制度化說明的話責任界限又透過個案事後的解讀來界定的話就容易出現一個問題同樣的職務在不同案件中可能被賦予不同責任標準導致第一線沒有辦法建立穩定的專業判斷所以想問部長"},{"start":747.513,"end":775.423,"text":"衛福部是不是會進一步去釐清不同類型的社工業務的工作範圍權限邊界跟責任內容並建立可供實務跟司法共同參考的標準這個專業範圍確實不容易完全界定但是我們盡有可能的去發展一些指引這個其實跟醫療很像就是盡量有一些指引那麼來作為我們在專業執行上的一個參據但是也不可能完全"},{"start":776.263,"end":791.88,"text":"就是非常僵化的只有指引那這樣我們會漏失掉很多因為這專業的部分就是會按照這個個案當時候的情形要去做彈性的調整所以我們盡可能的把一些常見的樣態跟"},{"start":794.643,"end":814.245,"text":"經常性的工作這個內容把它變成一個指引的方式特別是在涉及人身安全風險的案件當中應該界定那個應注意的範圍和不同職務之間的責任分工應該有更具體的制度化的我覺得這次事情結束了還是沒有解決社工的"},{"start":815.506,"end":844.757,"text":"壓迫感然後呢不確定性所以像剛剛提到以這個個案來講呢我們就有收出養的這個辦法的修訂嘛那裡面也有一些收出養的指引那另外呢這個收收出養的這個必要性評估格式我們也重新檢討這些其實都是在去協助界定這個專業應該要執行的部長我還是建議真的要請聽基層社工他們到底焦慮的是什麼這案子到底"},{"start":846.042,"end":872.414,"text":"對愛帶來的衝擊是什麼我很同意因為不是說你講制度定好可是過去也是制度定好為什麼還是有這些要知道他們面對到的困境到底是什麼才能真正解決問題那最後就是二十套保護跟收出跟安置跟寄養的有本質上都是高風險且高度不確定的專業服務在這樣的工作情境下我覺得制度是不是能夠足夠的做風險支持是必須正式的問題"},{"start":873.474,"end":898.857,"text":"所以專業責任保險並不是免責啦更不是替任何人卸責而是在這高風險的公共服務當中國家是不是能夠建立合理的風險分擔的機制所以想問部長目前在兒少保護跟收出養服務當中是不是有專業責任保險或類似的風險分擔的那個制度當第一線能源遭遇到植物遭遇到"},{"start":899.737,"end":923.163,"text":"民行事程序的時候有沒有法律諮詢 訴訟協助或者是專業鑑定的一個支持體制好 跟委員說明 目前當然我們對社工我們是有團保啦不過最主要是針對一些意外在服務過程當中對人身的意外傷害這個是有一個團保 這個是由政府在支持"},{"start":923.723,"end":952.602,"text":"那另外呢如果在社工司法裡面也有提到對這個法律諮詢支持的部分這個是也有那麼至於這個是屬於專業責任險那這個我們可能可不可以能夠願意就是說建立一套適用於耳哨保護跟收藏服務的專業責任保險制度並思考如何在個人機構跟政府之間建立更合理的責任的配置可以嗎我們來研究看看"},{"start":953.803,"end":978.799,"text":"包含這些從鑑定到責任的釐清等等最後我還是要再次強調今天的討論核心始終是孩子制度的清楚與否會直接影響到孩子是否能夠被穩定的接觸因為我們的目標今天孩子來到這塊土地我們每一個大人都有責任讓他平安長大如果責任不清資訊斷裂支持不足那麼風險就會在體積"},{"start":980.48,"end":1004.976,"text":"體系當中去累積而不是被解決所以我們需要的不是追究責任而是要讓制度真正有能力去承擔這個責任所以在請部長能夠針對第一線也要希望你們能夠傾聽他的聲音去辦這樣的論壇然後我們要接住孩子我們要接住那個一直在幫我們處理社會問題的社工也要接住第一線社工"},{"start":1005.436,"end":1021.726,"text":"好 我們今天下午其實在部裡面有這樣的座談那有些社工團體也許沒有辦法出席的我們再後續看看再來分區考量這個再舉辦好 謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝林若琴 趙薇的發言謝謝部長的答詢"}]}},{"id":"168772","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168772","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be544241dfd78fbaff08845ab56d7e35fc4ecf5c559c9b7407d71c4cd5d9dcafc62b725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"09:31:32 - 09:37:49","影片長度":"00:06:17","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-3院會付委）\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-7院會付委）\n（四）委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「民法第一千零三十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-6院會付委）\n（八）委員林月琴等22人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-9院會付委）\n（十二）委員黃捷等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員范雲等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第（十八）、（十九）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（二）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（四）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（五）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（六）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（七）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n【第（七）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（八）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-23","start_time":"2026-04-23T09:31:32+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-23T09:37:49+08:00","duration":377,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-5-36-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.78034375,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.058468750000003,"end":14.864093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.074718750000002,"end":17.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.10409375,"end":19.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.15846875,"end":22.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.44096875,"end":23.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.11159375,"end":30.574718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.722218750000003,"end":36.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.71721875,"end":38.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.98284375,"end":38.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.70846875,"end":38.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.94471875,"end":39.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.16409375,"end":47.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.446593750000005,"end":43.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.45846875,"end":50.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.314093750000005,"end":52.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.02284375,"end":60.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.440343750000004,"end":54.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.06034375,"end":56.697218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.19909375,"end":58.688468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.22409375,"end":60.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.86534375,"end":63.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.025343750000005,"end":63.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.88596875,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.97034375000001,"end":64.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.05471875,"end":64.86471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.86471875000001,"end":64.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.94909375,"end":73.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.33659375,"end":69.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.31096875,"end":72.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.07846875,"end":75.15846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.47909375,"end":76.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.02284375,"end":82.75221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.39346875000001,"end":84.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.58721875,"end":88.27034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.77659375,"end":91.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.39221875000001,"end":93.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.75471875000001,"end":94.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.56034375,"end":96.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.53471875000001,"end":99.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.28096875,"end":102.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.98096875,"end":105.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.39846875,"end":110.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.16971875,"end":118.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.67909375,"end":121.53096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.71221875,"end":124.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.61471875000001,"end":128.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.49159375000002,"end":139.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.98784375,"end":143.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.69221875,"end":146.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.61159375,"end":146.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.13471875000002,"end":146.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.16846875000002,"end":146.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.20221875000001,"end":146.65784375},{"spe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我要請補充有請我們法務部正部長補充辛苦"},{"start":22.744,"end":27.834,"text":"法務部最不簡單的就是我們登記以來已經建立了檢測官調動的一個機制"},{"start":32.673,"end":42.603,"text":"我請教你每一年檢測官的調動大概都在什麼時間8月底左右這是一個通案調動嗎那平時的話有個別的需求嗎檢測官調報來辦公也是過去有嗎"},{"start":51.783,"end":76.231,"text":"這個調布這是延期因求我想各部會各個機關都有這個樣的調布辦公可以啊調布的一個機制嘛那檢察官會有調布判事調去國安會辦公過去有沒有這個例我們沒有從來歷史上從沒到以後大概我們大概沒有這個調檢察官去到國安會判事的這個這個先例啦控協不來訪啊"},{"start":79.079,"end":98.749,"text":"我相信你也很了解老總統的性格我也很了解他對很多事情是很嚴謹的尤其是你的制度跟保守動力之間如果是違背分寸對他來說這是一個很嚴重的事情當然"},{"start":104.025,"end":118.738,"text":"民間在團結這個國安會 因為國安會主席就是總統嘛所以總統如果知道這個情形是有藍圈的嫌疑這樣最好總統如果是事先不瞭解他就會覺得有人欺騙他他的性格就是最討厭人家欺騙他"},{"start":130.543,"end":132.547,"text":"這個委員 國安會委員還要跟法務部來調這個檢察官來國安會辦公這個事情"},{"start":141.215,"end":152.227,"text":"你認不認識這個事情這個我們已經用我們新聞稿有澄清我有看你的新聞稿啊我們新聞稿 國安會也有澄清嘛沒有這回事啦我想這個是誤傳啦你不要說誤傳 我現在說一個事實下去聽我現在說一個事實下去聽啦"},{"start":161.636,"end":169.564,"text":"卡書 調辦事一定要依照一個程序啊沒有調辦事沒有這回事啦你現在先說過要經濟啊這個是我們調法務部辦事啊有嘛齁 好來調法務部辦事 法務部辦事呢法務部上班呢我知道啦 沒事情就好 你探聯醫隊"},{"start":185.765,"end":210.654,"text":"卡蘇調來這個主任檢察官 因為你是說現在這個主任檢察官他已經來到法務部兩年要告了嘛你的新聞局是這樣啦所以 因為我們那個檢察官現在在沒關係啦 要告了 你現在要再選掉一個選掉一個 你就是以公開徵詢嘛 可不可以公開徵詢不就按照我們制度來公開徵詢嘛好啊 最好這個如果姓馬咧"},{"start":213.74,"end":217.324,"text":"我現在跟你說這樣就好了,是不是這樣我不知道來我現在就跟你說這樣嘛,誰跟我講我講給你聽,你回去注意一下你回去注意就是說這是在公開的資訊,有報名的"},{"start":230.913,"end":240.937,"text":"我現在跟你說是不是小媽的 最好來這個人已經去總統府看過辦公室 我比較要跟你說他如果沒有做這些事情 我跟你說什麼人家在處理這些事情是沒有跟你說的嘛人家沒有讓你知道嘛你有可能你是屬下比較知道嘛所以我今天藉用這個機會跟你說"},{"start":255.137,"end":260.006,"text":"在這三個月以來 董事人已經去到總統府看過辦公室了"},{"start":262.179,"end":279.33,"text":"我不是說今天這樣 最好你是不了解的情形下有可能老總統 阿基隆沒比賽基中這對我們國家體育就不正常嘛再來 四月份這個調辦事本來就是一個很正常的一個機制嘛那個在法務部辦事沒有啦 在法務部辦事他去總統府看辦公室要幹什麼啦"},{"start":286.014,"end":299.446,"text":"這個我第一次聽到 聖空委員報告我們完全是走程序的我知道啦 我沒有適宜你的程序啦我沒有質疑你的程序啦我不會道聽途說"},{"start":303.189,"end":307.694,"text":"阿不然你現在把總統府這裡的監視器都給這三個月拿出來查看看有沒有阿不然我告訴你就是屬性嘛我用屬性來告訴你 你不需要這樣嘛給你 我再給你勾勺啦八月份要再調一個"},{"start":321.838,"end":337.391,"text":"有可能這個洗腦 我現在先跟你講好久不要說我泡茶 沉茶點就泡了如果總統已經知道 你又不知道我們要去做一個預計點因為我們就是要走程序這個不是要去調辦事務公告要有檢察官來自由報名有醫院來報名對啦 什麼報名都說嘛我今天"},{"start":345.098,"end":351.88,"text":"四月二三 今天四月二三我告訴你這個話你現在說要經濟 最好就是這樣我現在再告訴你就是 人們已經去總統府看過辦公室我認為一個委員 國安會這麼嚴重的機構不需要因為這樣 最好你如果不知道 總統不知道經營什麼發生這個事情 我說對我們大家都不好啦 這樣好不好"},{"start":373.287,"end":374.251,"text":"好 謝謝謝龍謝文 我要講我的經驗"}]}},{"id":"168771","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168771","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442f31192d10c0ed7d447e947452b2762635c559c9b7407d71c6ffb1ffb47bf31ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪毓祥","委員發言時間":"09:24:50 - 09:31:37","影片長度":"00:06:47","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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囤賭啦 對不對漲價聯合這種議題"},{"start":44.008,"end":70.595,"text":"那做了什麼處理 處理時間多久那當然你是怎麼確認這個結案好不好這個再書面回覆給我們好 是那今天要跟談的就是說上次我們談到Grab對不對他併購了這個那Grab後面還有Uber所以在這裡頭的話我還是想要提醒公平會因為我看你們的預算可能這一塊沒有特別的highlight出來可能藏在這個某些項目底下"},{"start":71.235,"end":98.513,"text":"那我比較擔心的就是我上次談的演算法平台數據這邊的競爭因為現在的話呢我覺得它已經不是像單純之前我們講的在討論的Foodpanda跟這個Uber的一個合併它現在的話透過這樣子併購下來之後其實我從科技的角度我比較擔心的是這種跨國的Super的APP的數據跟它這種演算法黑箱的一個不透明的一個拱段"},{"start":99.574,"end":127.248,"text":"那這個地方會對我們造成的影響就是說因為你Grab有這些的數據再加上Foodpanda然後他背後的股東還是有Uber所以這兩個平台的演算法的一致性或者是調解或是他採取的機制加上這些數據說實在的他可能會影響到我們整個的動態定價那不管是形成對外送員或者是消費者或者是這個店家"},{"start":128.348,"end":154.975,"text":"的一個平台的一個一個就是對我們的這種數位的這樣子的一個殖民造成我們的一個數位上的剝削那不曉得這一個主委對這個有什麼樣的看法我想委員關鍵的議題在上次我有稍微談過就是說基本上我們不會採過於非常形式的審查所以他背後的股權結構彼此之間是不是有董事兼聰是不是有跨國跨公司持股這個他的控制力的展現都是我們在審查這個案子我們會繼續去觀察的好"},{"start":156.795,"end":181.732,"text":"因為這個地方有點難的地方是在於是說這個他在做這件事情的時候其實那個演算法的透明性他往往會用商業機密的方式那也就是不公開所以你可能沒辦法去直接去detect他那可能就變成是間接所以我才說這個你可能要請一些相關的專家甚至辦很多"},{"start":182.412,"end":197.029,"text":"公聽的討論的會議因為我覺得在這個地方我們先未雨綢繆別人沒看到的東西因為新加坡在做這一塊的地方已經有做一點類似的裁罰你們也可以去參考這樣的案例那為什麼這樣講"},{"start":198.23,"end":220.838,"text":"因為我們的外送專法過了之後雖然我們解決了比如說疊單解決了這個透明度的這個問題但是我覺得在演算法這邊的一個軟停權然後它透過市場供需調節的機制來做我覺得這個是有一些疑慮的好不好這個再請公平會在未來的執行再好好思考是 謝謝接下來的話我們請這個經濟部"},{"start":226.892,"end":248.994,"text":"我想今天另外一個很重要的議題的話基本上我想就是稻採砂石然後再回舔這個問題我相信很多委員都說過了那我這邊的話想要說明的是說雖然我們跟經濟部有溝通過其實我也蠻正向的比如說在加重刑法的罰則"},{"start":249.815,"end":271.493,"text":"但是我覺得在罰款上面還有是不是可以用按日連續處罰直到他恢復為止因為我覺得這樣子的嚇阻力才夠那為什麼像剛剛這個所謂的兩千萬一億是因為我們在海域這海域的稻採這邊你們就開到一億了所以我是覺得你不能說海域跟陸地上有差別"},{"start":273.706,"end":280.233,"text":"這個照請經濟部是不是可以思考因為你不能說我倒在海裡的然後跟這個倒採土地的是不一樣的"},{"start":281.42,"end":304.629,"text":"跟委員說明 首先土石採取法當中目前的這個法則已經是水土保持法或是區域計劃法裡面相對的比較高的第二個部分 事實上我們在採法的時候也要考慮到執法還有包括比例的原則 剛剛委員所說的1億元的部分我們在涉及到盈益的部分或是產生包括"},{"start":305.629,"end":322.227,"text":"人民的生命財產這個安全的這個危害或是因為你的第二條就是這樣這現行法案以傳播其他機械在下列區域中華民國內水不含內陸水域領海這海域嘛阿人陸地跟海域不一樣"},{"start":324.868,"end":348.089,"text":"這個海域的部分因為他現行的這個沒有 我是說一致啦 一致啦 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Kacaw等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-6院會付委）\n（八）委員林月琴等22人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-9院會付委）\n（十二）委員黃捷等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員范雲等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第（十八）、（十九）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（二）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（四）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（五）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（六）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（七）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n【第（七）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（八）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-23","start_time":"2026-04-23T09:19:03+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-23T09:31:16+08:00","duration":733,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-5-36-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.08159375,"end":1.4653437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.22409375,"end":7.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.603468750000001,"end":9.750968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.282218750000002,"end":13.075343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.805343750000002,"end":23.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.48721875,"end":25.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.84971875,"end":31.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.447843750000004,"end":34.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.59971875,"end":32.869718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.51096875,"end":40.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.41721875,"end":42.454718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.362218750000004,"end":42.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.74159375,"end":111.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.81096875,"end":130.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.57784375000001,"end":119.86034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.98534375,"end":136.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.73534375,"end":137.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.87034375000002,"end":138.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.25409375,"end":163.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.30034375,"end":139.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.61659375000002,"end":140.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.86534375000002,"end":142.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.29971875,"end":143.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.09159375000002,"end":154.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.89284375,"end":154.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.03159375,"end":160.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.66409375,"end":162.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.68909375,"end":188.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.91284375,"end":203.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.71221875,"end":212.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.99346875,"end":235.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.43721875000003,"end":254.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.15159375000002,"end":261.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.26034375,"end":274.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.13721875000005,"end":266.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.51221875000005,"end":268.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.10284375000003,"end":270.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.16971875,"end":277.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.03409375,"end":290.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.88596875,"end":280.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.52721875000003,"end":282.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.26471875000004,"end":287.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.36159375,"end":287.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.11659375,"end":293.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.96846875,"end":304.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.12409375000004,"end":297.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.65909375,"end":301.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.68846875,"end":307.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.05034375,"end":310.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.19346875,"end":314.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.01534375,"end":320.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.87971875,"end":325.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.29284375000003,"end":324.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.53284375000004,"end":328.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","star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陳昭芝委員謝謝主席 有請鄭部長請鄭部長"},{"start":13.82,"end":27.773,"text":"今天委員會我們要討論有關民法親屬片的善養費的請求權的修正那我想先請教部長您對善養費的定性就是在現代民法的中是被定義為這個撫養義務的延伸還是一個婚姻的補償"},{"start":32.478,"end":36.7,"text":"跟委員報告 其實善養費事實上是對未來生活的補償 它是一個補償的性質那過去在司法實務上 因為長期善養費的請求要件實在太嚴格了所以把生活陷於困難當作唯一的門檻"},{"start":52.486,"end":56.608,"text":"那這本質是一種過去是個救濟的思維那不是權力的補償同時也可能對於為了家庭犧牲而沒有辦法減少就業能力或機會的這一方讓法院再如何去做一個合理公平的客觀評價會遇到一些困難"},{"start":73.556,"end":86.973,"text":"那本次修法 社養費的請求要件不單限於這個生活限於困難這點本席給予非常高的肯定跟支持但是對於家庭的心力跟貢獻這個部分我想要來繼續延續這個問題請問法務部認為修法的方向"},{"start":91.238,"end":97.66,"text":"是不是已經做到這個去體察或是呈現該方的家務勞動價值跟職癌機會成本而且避免在婚姻當中被剝削的那個一方的這個弱勢配偶他就是變得變相的一個剝削就請問你認為現在修法有沒有達到這幾個精神"},{"start":112.621,"end":136.224,"text":"我想這部分我們修法就是要鼓勵到的確是這是未來嘛 未來的生活的話是不是會陷入困難那當然有離婚時的話有減損的那個工作能力跟就業的一些的一個機會那當然是因為離婚後我們也會保障部長就抱歉 因為很多時候聽你報告你就說離婚時其實是離婚的時候之前在這段婚姻當中"},{"start":137.164,"end":154.25,"text":"他有減損的這個減損我想那個當然是一個很準的一個時間點就因為裁判離婚嘛就是一個離婚史或兩院離婚的時候離婚史那時候就一個檢視的一個時間點當然那個原因事實的行為可能會發生在婚姻關係程序中的那個都有"},{"start":154.87,"end":159.974,"text":"那我想這部分也要是保障離婚的另外一方的補償保障他的生活剛剛相關報告有提到盛養費是具有補償婚姻的貢獻這件事是補償的功能那為什麼現在送進立法院的這個草案版本還是保留這個再婚即消滅的制度"},{"start":176.625,"end":182.39,"text":"這個部分我也是經過思考然後我今天想跟你討論這個問題如果贍養費是為了補償過去的婚姻制度婚姻的貢獻為何會因為未來身份改變就一筆勾銷的呢這難道不然是長期救濟的一種思維嗎他在補償他過去那他身份改變了就不需要補償了嗎就一筆勾銷了嗎所以我想請問部長"},{"start":203.766,"end":211.47,"text":"假設一個這個原來全職的配偶他因為前段婚姻他犧牲了也許20年的就業競爭力那難道再婚之後該方原先喪失成長空間的職業啦或減少就業的機會包括生等職等就能夠因此自動補回嗎顯然是不會的所以我對於這個再婚及消滅這部分又因為說為了婚姻的補償這個概念我想請部長您可不可以簡單的回答"},{"start":233.682,"end":252.693,"text":"這樣子是有沒有漢格呢我認為那個一個再婚再婚就是建立一個新的婚姻關係了那夫妻之間有抚養的一個義務啦那讓那個深入關係的單純化那事實上這不是我們國家發明的這個是我們有參考德國瑞士立法立法乾淨的分手也就是說"},{"start":253.413,"end":258.954,"text":"這個善良會的問題我剛才第一句就是第一段就跟你們說這是撫養義務的延伸還是說對婚姻的一個補償既然是一個補償這不是撫養義務因為夫妻離婚之後就沒有互相撫養的義務的這個問題所以不得我的疑慮所以委員你可能對這個撫養義務因為撫養義務是婚姻夫妻有撫養的一個義務所以我對於草案中保留再婚及消滅的部分那是一個生活會的一個補償"},{"start":279.958,"end":282.481,"text":"因為我們對於弱勢離婚因為發生生活困難或者是就有機會減少或者那個那個能力 陌生能力的一個精神我有請教很多朋友齁就是說期待台灣現在的那個變成說結婚越多的話那個那個是不是說會讓我們這個婚姻的一個"},{"start":298.24,"end":299.943,"text":"有個關係還可以再領贍養費不停不停我現在就事論理就是就理論理再婚即消滅就是期待他方再婚時補償責任的遺轉呢那不就跟贍養費是原配的補償說互相衝突嘛"},{"start":316.055,"end":336.742,"text":"你的意思是說他再結婚了那你過去的補償都不算數就不要再補償我想這個先進國家那個德國瑞士那個世界很先進的國家他們那個對這一種的要乾淨的分手因為今年那個再婚了就是新的婚姻的關係的一個建立有新的一個生活我今天很認真地跟你談那變成說你要再婚的配合跟原來的離婚的配合還要供養撫養要補償那個"},{"start":338.863,"end":361.765,"text":"那個一個雙重的一個一個我對你就是換個思考你就聽 我也很認真在思考我想這個是外國的立法律有非常清楚的一個立法律而且實行得非常好再婚不會改變前段婚姻他因為就業新屬的事實再婚的話因為前段婚姻已經結束了嘛那只是再婚只是因為對生活的一個補償這是我們過去的思維嘛我對這個就是要討論啦這要修法嘛因為世界新興國家就是用這一套的再處理的嘛"},{"start":362.485,"end":366.448,"text":"那這個正當性 這次的正當性就是來自過去為一個家庭的犧牲跟奉獻嘛所以贍養費的求全基礎就不應該因為再婚的事實跟否定嘛這個是本席目前跟這個院版修法方向最大的分歧啦我還是請部長好好思考因為本次修法竟然是依據112年憲判制第4號的判決 要平衡離婚自由"},{"start":385.319,"end":411.642,"text":"跟弱勢保障的核心修改的配套措施而且善養費又被視為這次弱勢該判決的一個意旨所以在本次修法當中才會納入機會成本的補償概念所以我想請教部長法務部是否願意重新檢討思考善養費因再婚而消滅的這條款其實跟你所謂的補償機制的完整性不依身份而變動是打折扣的啊"},{"start":413.016,"end":422.087,"text":"我想這個經過我們多方的一個討論學者專家還有外國的立法律我們是有得到這樣的一個先進的法律那我覺得我們本部"},{"start":428.214,"end":450.769,"text":"的意見就是依照行政院院版的這個意見因為這經過各部會專家學者機關代表的一個討論因為主席都不給我時間等一下幫我消音博定我還是請教你另外一個問題我還是請你好好的思考剛剛我講的精神補償不會因為你再婚那你就移轉給另外一個人了嗎不是嘛就是補償他過去這一段的貢獻或是他的減損那博定我要請教你"},{"start":454.011,"end":465.334,"text":"發德外一間擴建工程延宕的事因為我們前立委這個黃國昌講了很多次我不再講贅述內容背景請問部長十個月前那個黃正次他被尋時回憶他說會針對審計部所提的報告進行檢討工程案那請問出來了沒有"},{"start":471.836,"end":477.001,"text":"檢討報告出來沒有誰負責有沒有誰要受到這個懲罰我具體的提問針對那個審計部他認為應該是用政府採購法第99條卻沒有去適用這是他講的話不是我講的話辦理過程險欠合法這個就是不法的意思部長那法務部要不要檢討要不要承認這是違法啦審計部說的不是我說的"},{"start":497.316,"end":512.819,"text":"他這個 黃國昌委員他那時候在去年有質詢的那一部分那事實上我們本部有在去年這個檢討報告也就有恢復了黃志答應了 他現在都高調離開要去參選了耶那這個他沒有高調離開啦 他是我們全部參選 好好好 大家都知道嘛法務部應該要交到立法院的檢討報告那你什麼時候可以給我們嘛"},{"start":525.391,"end":533.996,"text":"因為為什麼呢 這個部長你也清楚 六天前監察院報告有指出花了29億的那個跟委員報告 這個在去年8月20日就已經含糊啦沒有 這個檢討報告 你也知道第一階段 第二階段延宕時間一個365天 一個1073天耶那我想這個延宕的這個情形 這個是一個廠商的一個停工嘛"},{"start":547.384,"end":549.667,"text":"那這部分我們計劃違約金的又給罰金我們要依照契約的話那部長我再講更細緻的部分兩階段的缺失到今年月為止總共有5099項第一階段的工程甚至有17次的復驗"},{"start":564.685,"end":568.248,"text":"那其中16項他今天沒有改變喔沒有改進喔到現在還沒有改進喔所以今天假設請署長沒有來啦我本來請教他不過請部長就來回答面對同胞商如此低劣的施工品質施工品質跟長期延宕有兩個問題嘛不只是延宕嘛那那個施工品質有幾千項的問題啊那為什麼沒有及時介入這個管理呢強制管理作為呢還有"},{"start":590.968,"end":596.011,"text":"這個我們有要求他們要做一個改善所以他不改善的話我們就是有一個可以依照企業的來來那個那個罰錢那另外那個我們也是腳證署事實上有都督導的那個巴德外間的那些工程嘛那我們要求他們要全部的來改善的一個缺失嘛那個安全品質嘛這個我想我們就按照企業的一個的規定不管是疏失"},{"start":615.923,"end":623.047,"text":"還是說擺著沒有去理他我們沒有擺著去理他我們就是要求他們一定要立即要改善他那不改善我們就花錢嘛23年7月他就進駐嘛但是現在到1月才啟動維護保養合約這兩年的空窗期耶都沒有設備維護紀錄也沒有考量管理跟運作的安全現在我們也在收治啦現在也在啟用在收治啦收治那個受刑人啦"},{"start":639.517,"end":654.45,"text":"一個是延宕嘛 一個就是這樣嘛有 那這個我們都有去做小正部的公文這樣子不好 他的新聞稿說都歸咎於外部不可控的責任啦你不能說出事 都說外部的問題啦什麼新冠啦 什麼一大堆問題你自己還是有要檢討的這個部分啦"},{"start":657.512,"end":661.713,"text":"因為如果這件事都不能好好有一個檢討報告處理老實說啦我們快要檢視法務部的寵慾算碼因為這個東西你在幾次的復驗當中你耗費那麼久的時間我們真的會擔心浪費耗納稅人的納稅錢欸你說叫我們怎麼來審理過去的這些都還沒補正啊委員關係的這個問題我再請教證書再提書面報告"},{"start":683.78,"end":686.462,"text":"一定要的啦 不能再拖延了啦當時為什麼那麼多措施 幾千項措施 沒有人去介入管理啊然後又空轉兩年多 完全沒有保養 沒有安全我們矯正署是很負責事有去"},{"start":701.075,"end":716.243,"text":"我聽說還沒看到工程是這樣在做的所以審計部跟工程會都有提出糾正我們假設做了哪些以及廠商做了哪些的要求措施這部分我們再用書面發表部長那您的報告什麼時候可以讓我知道呢就是你究責的情況"},{"start":717.438,"end":731.35,"text":"那我想一週 一個禮拜好不好一個禮拜 那我要清楚看到了因為主席要趕我了但是請你記得 拜託你就是這些事情我們要了解這是我們的責任就行政機關好好做 我們好好監督好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"168768","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168768","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442b1319ef97886312e47e947452b2762635c559c9b7407d71c62af07d6823bbab05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"09:10:58 - 09:15:49","影片長度":"00:04:51","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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謝謝洪昭偉 請賴次長 請賴次長次長 我先請教一下 這個土石採取法這個相當重要 社會高度關注那院版什麼時候能夠送進來"},{"start":20.98,"end":38.969,"text":"事實上我剛剛也到院裡面跟相關的單位來去進行整個法規更細緻化的一個檢討那我們希望說是不是在兩個禮拜裡面可以院的部分可以來通過這個我希望在審查的時候院辦應該要一起進來討論這個能夠更加的充分"},{"start":39.949,"end":62.283,"text":"那因為布版的已經出來了大家看得到但是不知道院還會不會有一些修改一些那我們也希望沒有如果已經有共識的趕快送進立法院來做審議那希望大家一起兵牙來審查能夠更完整把這個土石採取法修得更好好不好兩個禮拜內請院裡面盡速把版本送進來也請次長在跟院裡面再說明一下能夠盡快好不好好"},{"start":62.603,"end":78.458,"text":"再要請教一下其實這次整個修法裡面其實幾個大方向大家都支持包括我們把刑罰部分加入給予更強的嚇阻力這應該也是目前運版跟布版的一個方向是第一個我們希望維持國土的安全"},{"start":79.139,"end":99.051,"text":"那針對不法的行為要積極的遏止所以我們在經濟部在提這個修法的預告的之前我們地礦中心也分別的去拜訪高檢署跟地檢署就目前現行執行的這個部分希望要達到遏止的目的那過去只有行政法法那現實行為人沒有辦法"},{"start":101.74,"end":120.133,"text":"刑罰是最好的效果坦白講這些惡意的這些的倒採殺死或者是回田的這些的其實最怕的是被關那如果你有刑罰的話對他們嚇阻力就更大了委員所說的確實是在這個法務部各個在細數偵辦之中所有檢察官包括高檢署的認為說這個部分"},{"start":121.894,"end":144.153,"text":"我想這個應該大家是有共識那另外是他們沒入這些機具有時候大家發現他已經在不管是挖土機或者說運送的一些車輛在做的時候如果我們能夠立即把他給扣下來的話那應該也會立即能夠讓這個事情不再發生而且也產生更強的嚇阻力啦你來一條扣一台兩台扣兩台我不相信有業者會不斷地冒這樣的風險"},{"start":145.173,"end":161.609,"text":"但是我們在執行這個過程裡面還要考慮到各縣市政府在沒入這些的機區的時候不管是在當下去進行所謂的看護或是事後的一個保管這個應該是執行面的問題怎麼去執行但是至少你有嚇阻力"},{"start":162.33,"end":179.91,"text":"就是你有違法行為我把你的挖土機甚至把你的一些運具全部把你扣下來的話你有多少數量你沒有這些東西你就無法進行違法的行為了這個是強而有力的手段我相信這也是好的方法這應該是大家也都會支持的好 謝謝維恩好 再來我也請教一下剛剛其實市長提到"},{"start":180.43,"end":209.333,"text":"盈利跟非盈利的部分這個有區隔開來如果第三條把那個這麼明確訂定的話那我們擔心有些是自用的不小心的誤觸的這塊就不會錄入到了一百萬以上的這樣的罰款的問題是謝謝委員指導事實上在這個部分因為民眾對於自己少量的這個使用還有包括自己因為不管是在農地的耕作或是在整地的需求裡面我們在本法的第三條裡面已經有各個條款大概是五個"},{"start":210.074,"end":239.654,"text":"六個部分對 這個只要區隔清楚 只要區隔清楚的話讓盈利跟非盈利的分得清楚一般的老百姓的不會落到這個重罰裡面但是對於我們這些惡意的這些的盈利行為的必須要給予重罰那這樣才能產生嚇阻的效果所以延續的我就要講那所以我的版本裡面是你看這一個關高雄的案件他不法獲利破三億那如果現在動輒以像剛剛布板的提出來是兩千萬的話這有辦法達到嚇阻的效果嗎"},{"start":241.335,"end":261.742,"text":"搭配我們現在目前的刑法和機具的默入的部分我相信可以達到一定的惡主的效果而且委員你剛剛這個照片裡面所示的它絕對不會是非營利的一個行為或是民眾少許的整體的行為我們針對於這種行為我們希望透過這次的修法來進行"},{"start":263.283,"end":263.503,"text":"好 謝謝市長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168767","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168767","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442b6a388cc31e0a6145ab56d7e35fc4ecf5c559c9b7407d71c68389693bd1b95a25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:03:50 - 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Kacaw等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-6院會付委）\n（八）委員林月琴等22人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-9院會付委）\n（十二）委員黃捷等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員范雲等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第（十八）、（十九）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（二）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（四）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（五）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（六）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（七）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n【第（七）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（八）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-23","start_time":"2026-04-23T09:03:50+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-23T09:08:14+08:00","duration":264,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-5-36-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.9590937500000001,"end":4.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.30409375,"end":108.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.06034375,"end":138.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.88659375,"end":141.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.34221875,"end":146.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.48471875,"end":147.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.10909375,"end":148.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.88534375,"end":238.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.87971875000002,"end":262.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.58909375,"end":263.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.97284375000004,"end":264.20909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.044,"end":3.535,"text":"你如果要花時間可以索得存一分錢就更好"},{"start":8.335,"end":32.525,"text":"主席還有輔會同仁 大家好那麼針對今天這個民法親屬篇的這個部分條文修正草案那本席在這邊先針對我的提案本席的提案有關於民法離婚與贍養費制度的這個整體修正那主要的目的是在回應當前社會的家庭形態轉變那麼並建立符合現代婚姻關係跟經濟公平的一個制度架構"},{"start":33.405,"end":49.402,"text":"那麼首先在離婚制度的這個部分呢現在現行的規範是以責任歸屬為核心那麼容易會讓這個訴訟的過程流於指責過失跟介入隱私沒有辦法回歸婚姻是不是已經實質破裂的這個判斷"},{"start":50.203,"end":72.565,"text":"所以本案的修正是刪除部分已經不符實務的劣舉事由那麼同時明定夫妻不同居達三年且處於持續狀態者得提起離婚使制度來回歸婚姻破綻主義之精神並兼顧個案的這個平衡那由法院來判斷是否有顯示公平"},{"start":73.326,"end":94.046,"text":"那麼其次呢在這個善養費制度喔那麼現行的規範是以無過失作為請求的要件已經不太符合現在的這個婚姻平等的理念那本案呢修正刪除無過失的限制改以離婚後限於生活困難或因婚姻分工制就業能力減損機會減少者為請求的基礎"},{"start":97.93,"end":125.637,"text":"那麼使贍養費來回歸填補經濟落差跟補償家庭投入的本質那麼同時呢本案增第1057條之一至五從請求方式 著定標準減免適由 權力消滅到行使期間建構完整制度體系使贍養費的制度具備明確規範跟可預期性那麼本案的核心在於讓制度回到公平與現實"},{"start":127.917,"end":138.644,"text":"讓婚姻的結束不再是對一方的不當負擔而是經濟與責任的合理重整那麼以上敬請各位委員支持本案"},{"start":148.188,"end":148.308,"text":"可以嗎?"},{"start":178.568,"end":194.273,"text":"來放寬裁判離婚的事由使法院得以回歸婚姻是否以實質破裂之判斷那符合現在家庭關係跟婚姻自由之發展趨勢然而如果對目前私情已經發生的事實加以規範"},{"start":195.393,"end":221.57,"text":"可能會產生適用疑義影響當事人的權益那麼具體來說過去已經發生的婚姻破裂事實如果在新法施行前未符合舊法離婚的要件卻在新法下已經構成離婚的事由若人不得適用新法提起離婚之訴將會導致制度改革就沒有辦法完整的發揮這個效果"},{"start":222.771,"end":237.657,"text":"那也有違修法的意旨所以呢本案明定在修法施行前所發生之事時依修正後第1052條之規定足以構成離婚原因者當事人即可提起離婚之訴"},{"start":238.993,"end":260.943,"text":"藉此來確保法律適用標準一致並避免新舊制度交錯所產生是不公平的結果本案為離婚制度改革之重要配套措施有助於落實婚姻破綻主義之精神並保障人民婚姻自主與司法救濟的權利那麼以上敬請各位委員支持本案謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17377","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17377","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbe063c99885a10fc2819ba3698dbd896eb1d480c4e0b4ea52a37695131ef0079e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) (詢答及處理)\n【4月22日及23日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2026-04-23","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-04-23T08:30:59+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-23T11:40:00+08:00","duration":11341,"影片長度":"03:09:01","委員發言時間":"08:30:59 - 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杨洁"},{"start":692.218,"end":692.426,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":856.971,"end":857.674,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1126.391,"end":1127.108,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1270.933,"end":1272.159,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1334.475,"end":1336.689,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1426.357,"end":1427.927,"text":"MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":1664.795,"end":1664.815,"text":"哦"},{"start":1757.695,"end":1778.652,"text":"我們現在開會進行討論事項請宣讀討論事項1審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管反托拉斯基金2審查1本院委員吳立華的17人米據"},{"start":1779.192,"end":1808.049,"text":"土石採取法第3條條文修正草案案2.本院委員黃綸等36人擬拒土石採取法第3條及第14條條文修正草案案3.本院委員邱盈盈等21人委員賴樂龍等19人分別擬拒土石採取法部分條文修正草案等2案4.本院委員許志傑等31人委員柯之恩等19人委員陳廷輝等16人委員丁英守莊等16人分別擬拒土石採取法第36條條文修正草案等4案"},{"start":1810.184,"end":1823.812,"text":"5.本院委員邱振均等24人拟據《土石差距法》第36條、第38條及第39條條文修正草案6.本院台灣民眾黨黨團拟據《土石差距法》第36條、第38條及第41條條文修正草案宣布完畢"},{"start":1830.572,"end":1848.263,"text":"本日議程的話以尋答165年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管反托拉斯基金2審查土石採取法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":1850.865,"end":1859.75,"text":"好那我們因為節省時間所以我們現在請這個公平交易委員會代理主任委員陳志明報告5分鐘"},{"start":1865.087,"end":1881.994,"text":"主席各位委員先進各位女士先生大家早今天很榮幸代表公平會來經濟委員會針對本會115年度的施政計畫跟預算編列情形那以下請就114年的預算執行情形還有115年的預算編列情形做一個簡要的報告"},{"start":1882.794,"end":1899.438,"text":"首先在114年度的預算的執行進行部分在稅務的部分就單位預算的部分本會的稅務部分114年度的預算數是1億1927萬4千元那這裡面主要是罰緩的收入那到12月底為止處分的罰緩總共有6106萬元那處分確定列入收入總計有28億"},{"start":1906.041,"end":1921.758,"text":"93266000元那這裡面主要是因為有一些大的案子像電容器民營電廠確定法案確定所以列入這個收入那最初的部分114年度的預算編列大概是3億6000萬左右含最佳預算那到12月底的時候累計致用的3億23197000元"},{"start":1924.12,"end":1945.419,"text":"所以佔累積的分配數是91%那至於在附屬單位預算很多都是基金部分基金的來源在114年度的預算數5470萬元那截至12月底為止我們累積的收入數是12億4856萬元那這裡面主要是因為違反公民交易法的罰款收入有30%所提撥的部分"},{"start":1949.142,"end":1955.427,"text":"那在基金的用途部分114年度的預算數是6802萬元那截至12月底累計的資用數是5995萬元累計分配數是79%那基金的餘額目前截至12月底"},{"start":1965.954,"end":1975.758,"text":"基金的來源及用途相抵後那本期剩餘還有11億9461萬5千元加計期出的這個基金的餘額8億6933萬1千元期末基金的餘額是20億6394萬6千元那115年度開始本會的重點的執政計畫包含持續的執行公平交易法跟"},{"start":1988.624,"end":2016.746,"text":"多層次傳銷管理辦法那歸置我們產業的競爭環境完備我們相關的競爭法制跟產業資訊的系統那也會繼續進進這個提升事業的這個法尊的意願來後持自由競爭的文化另外在推動國際交流合作部門我們也會持續的強化跨境的執法協作那在這樣的執政的一個重點我們編列了115年的預算那在本會的單位預算部分稅務部分我們編列了1億1000"},{"start":2019.647,"end":2044.956,"text":"928萬元左右其中華凡收入大概預估是1億1895萬4千元那財產的收入是26萬元其他的收入是7萬元稅出的部分115年度編列3億5700萬3千元那主要分為三大部分在一般行政的部分我們編列的3億3419萬元在公平交易業務的部分編列的2千231萬3千元那第一月金是50萬元"},{"start":2046.016,"end":2070.462,"text":"至於單位的附屬預算反托拉斯基金基金的來源115年度我們編列的5482萬2千元那其中罰款的收入是4669萬4千元利息收入是812萬8千元那基金的用途部分115年度我們一共是6707萬3千元那其中分兩個主要的計畫來執行第一個是強化反托拉斯執法計畫我們編列的4252萬1千元"},{"start":2072.102,"end":2096.241,"text":"那另外一個計畫是數位經濟的競爭政策研究及倡議的計畫我們編列了2455萬2000元那本期的餘助基金來源跟用途相抵後還短促了1225萬1000元那本會將持續在既有的工作基礎上持續努力的精進公民交易法的實施來完備競爭的法制那也請各位委員先進能夠對本會的預算案所列的計畫跟經費予以支持跟指教謝謝"},{"start":2099.295,"end":2102.788,"text":"好謝謝那接下來的話我們請經濟部常務次長賴建信報告"},{"start":2113.277,"end":2130.552,"text":"主席各位委員大家早安有關於土石財區法的大家的關切我們積極不表達誠摯的一個感謝那今天奉這個招會就武力華委員17人提案土石財區法第3條修正案及黃仁委員36人"},{"start":2131.793,"end":2158.696,"text":"所凝聚的土石採取法第三條跟第十四條的修正案以及邱毅英委員等二十一人所凝聚的還有賴樂榮委員等十九人許智傑等三十一人柯志源等十九人邱振軍等二十四人陳廷飛等十六人及丁學忠等十六人及民眾黨團所凝聚的土石採取法第三十六條三十八條四十一條修正案等十案"},{"start":2159.597,"end":2185.604,"text":"以下逐一做一個說明首先就土石採取法研修的這個政策的部分針對於國內的大規模的違法採取土石的情勢那違法的行為人藉此謀取不法的利益嚴重迫害了我們的景觀甚至為止公共安全經濟部目前已經移具了土石採取法36條的修正條文並於去年的10月30號預告相關的修正的重點"},{"start":2186.104,"end":2212.172,"text":"第一個是強化行政法則把原來的這個罰款的上限從500萬提高到1000萬然後並在採取的當下可以沒入違法行為的機械設備跟運輸的車輛第二個部分是增訂法則對於意圖營利未經許可的這個行為處5年以下的徒刑並科罰金若違法行為釀成災害的部分加重刑罰針對於"},{"start":2215.138,"end":2240.971,"text":"大院武力法委員等各個提案我們做足一個說明有關於原住民基本的權益跟傳統文化的這個部分這兩個提案主要是會促進符合原民法的第19條跟21條的精神並希望提到法律未接來明定經濟部並且要支持有關於提高行政罰款的部分諸位委員所做的提案"},{"start":2242.331,"end":2262.783,"text":"針對於所謂的罰款的這個上限跟下限的部分都有不同的這個主張那經濟部經過嚴處的時候我們認為說在罰款的下限的部分其實本法所目前的這個下限已遇其他相關的這個法規但是上限的這個部分還是需要就立法的目的來讓這個行為人之所"},{"start":2266.405,"end":2293.995,"text":"之所警覺那就裁處的刑委跟連續法的這個上限的部分也在我們經濟部的這個預告案裡面有相關的提出那另外有關於徵定罰者的這個部分那由於刑者的構成要件上面那我們目前規規劃以益土盈利為基本的要件對於民眾因為自行使用或是少量使用的部分那目前我們在原來的法規裡面就有相關的這個規範"},{"start":2295.675,"end":2316.764,"text":"這個部分可以做一個明確的區分我們建議說這個部分是參照我們經濟部的這個意見至於沒收處分的這個部分因為沒收的這個時間點是未能限期整戶才能實施的執行那我們希望在採取的當下就可以得以沒收依照各縣市政府的執行能力來沒收"},{"start":2317.344,"end":2329.978,"text":"那這個部分可以讓我們執法的單位更有執法的一個空間那至於限期整戶跟強制機關代旅行的這個部分各委員都有一些的提案但是若是"},{"start":2332.3,"end":2347.248,"text":"這個無條件的就是由政府來執行的代理性反而是有變相鼓勵行為人犯罪行為不予改正的一個情況所以以上我們針對土石採取法的修正的這個意見"},{"start":2347.988,"end":2362.372,"text":"我們希望聆聽諸位的一個指導了之後再進行相關的一個修正那目前這個院版的這個草案行政院在審查之中我們希望盡速完成這個案子的審議以上報告謝謝大家"},{"start":2367.874,"end":2394.974,"text":"有關本次會議各部會所提的書面報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報本日議程討論事項何並詢答委員諮詢前原例作以下宣告第一 每位委員發言時間本會委員4分鐘 B20的延長1分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點零分截止發言登記首先請登記第一位的賴瑞榮委員發言"},{"start":2398.843,"end":2416.776,"text":"好 謝謝洪昭偉 請賴次長 請賴次長次長 我先請教一下 這個土石採取法這個相當重要 社會高度關注那院版什麼時候能夠送進來"},{"start":2418.987,"end":2436.955,"text":"事實上我剛剛也到院裡面跟相關的單位來去進行整個法規更細緻化的一個檢討那我們希望說是不是在兩個禮拜裡面可以院的部分可以來通過我希望在審查的時候院辦應該要一起進來討論這個能夠更加的充分"},{"start":2437.935,"end":2460.266,"text":"那因為布版的已經出來了大家看得到但是不知道院還會不會有一些修改一些那我們也希望沒有如果已經有共識的趕快送進立法院來做審議那希望大家一起兵來審查能夠更完整把這個土石採取法修得更好好不好兩個禮拜內請院裡面盡速把版本送進來也請次長在跟院裡面再說明一下能夠儘快好不好好"},{"start":2460.586,"end":2476.444,"text":"再要請教一下其實這次整個修法裡面其實幾個大方向大家都支持包括我們把刑罰部分加入給予更強的嚇阻力這應該也是目前運版跟布版的一個方向是第一個我們希望維持國土的安全"},{"start":2477.125,"end":2497.032,"text":"那針對不法的行為要積極的遏止所以我們在經濟部在提這個修法的預告的之前我們地礦中心也分別的去拜訪高檢署跟地檢署就目前現行執行的這個部分希望要達到遏止的目的那過去只有行政法法那現實行為人沒有辦法"},{"start":2499.727,"end":2518.123,"text":"刑罰是最好的效果坦白講這些惡意的這些的倒採殺死的或者是回田的這些的其實最怕的是被關啦那如果你有刑罰的話對他們嚇阻力就更大了是委員所說的確實是在這個法務部啊各個在系署偵辦之中所有檢察官包括高檢署的認為說這個部分"},{"start":2519.884,"end":2547.465,"text":"我想這個應該大家是有共識那另外是他們沒入這些機具有時候大家發現他已經在不管是挖土機或者說運送的一些車輛在做的時候如果我們能夠立即把他給扣下來的話那應該也會立即能夠讓這個事情不再發生而且也產生更強的嚇阻力啦你來一條扣一台兩台扣兩台我不相信有業者會不斷的冒這樣的風險是的但是我們在執行這個過程裡面還要考慮到各縣市政府啊"},{"start":2547.885,"end":2575.191,"text":"在沒入這些的積蓄的時候不管是在當下去進行所謂的看護或是事後的一個保管這個應該是執行面的問題怎麼去執行但是至少你有嚇阻力產生就是你有違法行為我把你的挖土機甚至把你的一些運具全部把你扣下來的話你有多少數量你沒有這些東西你就無法進行違法的行為了這個是強而有力的手段我相信這也是好的方法這應該是大家也都會支持的好 謝謝委員"},{"start":2576.391,"end":2597.783,"text":"再來我也請教一下剛剛旗幟市長提到營利跟非營利的部分這個有趣的開放如果第三條把那個這麼明確訂定的話那我們擔心有些是自用的不小心的誤觸的這一塊就不會落入到了一百萬以上的這樣的罰還的問題是 謝謝委員指導事實上在這個部分因為民眾對於自己少量的這個使用"},{"start":2598.223,"end":2613.785,"text":"還有包括自己因為不管是在農地的耕作或是在整地的需求裡面我們在本法的第三條裡面已經有各個條款大概是五個六個部分對這個只要區隔清楚只要區隔清楚的話讓盈利跟非盈利的分得清楚一般"},{"start":2614.426,"end":2637.633,"text":"一般的老百姓的不會落到這個重罰裡面但是對於我們這些惡意的這些的營利行為的必須要給予重罰那這樣才能產生賀祖的效果所以延續的我就要講那所以我的版本裡面是你看這一個關高雄的案件他不法獲利破三億那如果現在動輒以像剛剛布板的提出來是兩千萬的話這有辦法達到賀祖的效果嗎"},{"start":2639.332,"end":2659.74,"text":"搭配我們現在目前的這個刑法還有機具的這個沒入的部分我相信可以達到一定的這個惡主的效果而且委員你剛剛這個照片裡面所示的他絕對不會是說是非營利的一個行為或是民眾少許的整體的這個行為我們針對於這種行為我們希望透過這個這次的修法來進行"},{"start":2661.101,"end":2685.251,"text":"我相信幾個修法都會達到一定的成效那我還是要請問因為現有的只是比如說所得利益的範圍酌量加重罰還跟你直接2000萬跟你3億比如說5億啦他獲利有3億空間我們給5億不管最後追得回來追不回來至少在法上面會呈現出一個高度的力量去我覺得這個還是請院裡面跟部裡面慎重來評估那也許我們在委員會討論可以慎重討論是是好謝謝次長謝謝"},{"start":2688.677,"end":2690.28,"text":"好 謝謝賴榮榮 謝謝次長接下來我們請邱益穎委員質詢"},{"start":2714.176,"end":2734.61,"text":"謝謝主席 我先請一下公平會陳代理主委請公平會主委主委來我先請您看一下這幾個網站請問你能夠分辨得出來哪一個是原廠的維修網站嗎"},{"start":2736.855,"end":2757.862,"text":"當然如果從標題來看也許不是那麼清楚 但是點進去看情況怎麼樣才能做進一步的報告但你覺得一般的民眾他如果比如說他的冷氣要維修他打了一個大金冷氣維修這樣的一個Google的關鍵字跳出來這麼多的網站 你覺得消費者會每一個都點進去看然後才知道說哪一個是原廠的維修網站嗎"},{"start":2758.542,"end":2785.428,"text":"當然從點閱的行為來看一下因為你會從Google的關鍵字或者跳出來的第一個或許他們就會覺得這個有可能而且每一個網站上面看起來它都是直接就寫某某品牌的冷氣維修來 主委那您看到其實剛剛的那一頁裡面第二個才是真正的原廠維修的網站但是其實你從它的標裡頭你是看不出來的就算你點進去了以後"},{"start":2785.928,"end":2794.653,"text":"它其實還是會有很多這一些假的反饋告訴你說這個維修網站這個維修廠商其實做得很好"},{"start":2795.683,"end":2823.843,"text":"其實你是看不出來的我不曉得您大家還記不記得過去公平會曾經就這樣子的廣告不實或者是虛偽不實去做出裁把不過也很多年沒有再去罰過了所以像現在在很多的網路資訊AI資訊我們或者是說在Google的關鍵字裡頭其實就可以買到相關的這些廣告對於大多數的消費者來說其實造成了極大的困擾"},{"start":2825.031,"end":2846.178,"text":"因為他根本不知道哪一個是正的原廠維修我也不能講說不是原廠維修的都不好但是這個還是會有可能會出現詐騙或者是說在維修的品質上面良又不齊或者是誤導消費者的狀態這個是不是也能夠請公平會能夠主動的去調查了解"},{"start":2846.638,"end":2867.818,"text":"跟委員報告一下過去我們處分過的案子基本上都是他的廣告內容是不實的那目前之所以委員談到說目前好像很少這個案子主要就是說基本上我們對現在他已經不敢不實了但是他直接就打出了我們的現在執法原則就是說如果你的網頁上讓消費者可以去判斷有判斷的機會的話那原則上我們就不能說他不實"},{"start":2868.999,"end":2892.135,"text":"好那他怎麼樣判斷的機會來你看一下你可以看得出來這個網頁他到底是不是真正的原廠維修他的字體非常的小小到讓你其實看不清楚比如說在左邊的這一頁他的字體非原廠的他是放在上面這字體非常的小左邊這一頁呢他是放在最底下"},{"start":2893.257,"end":2916.679,"text":"他其實他的字體是非常的小我們過去處分過的案子對這種字體太小或是隱匿的我們會查啦這個我還是希望你們要去了解一下啦這個其實還是有很多的消費糾紛產生所以今天特別在藉由這個我們處理公平會預算的這個審查的時候來跟您提出這樣的一個好來那個主委您請回我請一下經濟部次長我們請次長"},{"start":2925.218,"end":2940.878,"text":"市長我們今天要討論土石採取法那這個土石採取法現在今天看起來有非常多的版本其實每一個委員對於土石採取這一件事情我應該講土石採取法會"},{"start":2942.139,"end":2953.511,"text":"被這麼關心的提出來是因為在去年的時候發生了美濃大峽谷的事件那這個美濃大峽谷還被惡意的網友把它改成叫做邁銀大峽谷"},{"start":2955.799,"end":2974.045,"text":"高度的指控這跟我有關係喔那我想藉著這樣的一個機會也要讓大眾很清楚的知道這個土石採取我們目前的法則老實講已經無法規範行為人次長您同意我的看法嗎"},{"start":2974.685,"end":3000.365,"text":"是 過去從97個案件裡面的裁法我們認為說 只有行政法法是不夠的因為像委員的照片所示 它其實是一個盈利的行為甚至還有不肖的業者來去回舔所謂的廢棄物砂石業者有盈利行為 這個我們也不排斥但是非法採取砂石做盈利 盜採 然後這個"},{"start":3003.968,"end":3024.76,"text":"偷到垃圾偷到廢棄物這已經是一個產業鏈了所以我們現在的裁罰可能只罰這個司機你根本是完全扣不到真正的幕後的那一個黑手所以我看很多的委員提出來的這些版本包括上線都"},{"start":3025.72,"end":3051.738,"text":"提高非常多啦本期在期按的這個上限大概是2500萬應該算是在所有的期按裡面算是最少的也有提到兩億的啦 一億的啦不管你的上限提高到多少我認為整體的這一個非法倒採砂石的這個產業鏈應該要去強力的去打擊它 增加刑事責任甚至"},{"start":3052.418,"end":3057.911,"text":"包括不只是行為人 不只是卡車的司機 沒入他的砂石車"},{"start":3059.338,"end":3081.863,"text":"甚至所有的行政罰則都應該一併採納您同意我的看法嗎是 完全同意啊剛委員所說的 特別是有盈利的行為不管是他即便說他是最後是回舔這個廢棄物事實上也是盈利因為這些廢棄物就是他得兩盒賺嘛 他挖了砂石起來賣了砂石賺一批嘛"},{"start":3082.443,"end":3104.823,"text":"回填廢棄物 非法的廢棄物回填以後又再賺一批嘛整個產業鏈也造成了現在全台灣有所謂的土方之亂這些過去的建築營建土方目前不知道要倒去哪裡 也沒有辦法處理所以我們除了去處理稻採砂石這件事情以外我覺得經濟部"},{"start":3106.624,"end":3125.587,"text":"跟國土署應該就整個產業鏈整個廢棄物的處理太陽模式應該要去做更詳細的研究評估土石採取法現在加重罰環我們應該要儘速通過但我不知道為什麼行政院拖這麼久"},{"start":3126.513,"end":3148.773,"text":"安委員所說的確實我們在過去一段時間我們不但是要遏止這個行為我們在這個行為必須要回復整戶是一個重要性的事情這邊有涉及到跨部會我們看到我們過去的時候這應該牽扯到國土署環境部跟你們經濟部在沙石的管理上面那行政院的版本什麼時候可以出來"},{"start":3149.799,"end":3176.091,"text":"我們希望在兩個禮拜內啊可以提出來兩個禮拜內是出行政院吧對對如果兩個禮拜內沒有辦法出行政院呢請陳金德提頭來見嗎沒有沒有沒有其實在這個部分我們大家的溝通的部分是針對於整戶的部分但是目前大家逐漸有意見的收攏之中我們希望盡速的通過這個法規恢復我們這個環境景觀跟國土的安全"},{"start":3176.331,"end":3191.637,"text":"您過去擔任很長一段時間的水利署署長所以您對於在河川稻採砂石這些事情其實您都瞭然於心我覺得在很多的規範管理跟制度化更提升賀止犯罪產業鏈的出現的這一段"},{"start":3195.04,"end":3222.161,"text":"這個過程我希望你能夠多用一點心那我也希望行政院的版本能夠早日提出來我們今天可能主席會待會會逐條討論但是我覺得行政院版本如果不併進來的話我們真的不知道政府單位的態度在哪裡你不能只有委員的提案你行政單位的提案到現在一直遲遲不送出來這個我們也覺得這個非常的不應該所以市長這個我們還是希望能夠交付給您很重要的任務好不好謝謝"},{"start":3225.151,"end":3230.856,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請洪玉祥召委 請發言好 謝謝主席 我們有請這個公平會主委我們請公平會"},{"start":3248.652,"end":3267.024,"text":"這個我想這個第一個我想之前大家很多委員都問過了所以我大概也不用需要你回答大概就是說因為不管在因為我覺得這個東西還會一直在發生不管是將來什麼事件所以可能在你交給我們的一個報告裡面去告訴我們說什麼時候會偵測到這種所謂的一個不夠啦 囤賭啦 對不對漲價聯合這種議題"},{"start":3273.988,"end":3300.59,"text":"那做了什麼處理 處理時間多久那當然你是怎麼確認這個結案啊好不好這個在書面回覆給我們那今天要跟談的就是說上次我們談到Grab對不對他併購了這個那Grab後面還有Uber所以在這裡頭的話我還是想要提醒公平會因為我看你們的預算可能這一塊沒有特別的highlight出來可能藏在這個某些項目底下"},{"start":3301.23,"end":3324.413,"text":"那我比較擔心的就是我上次談的演算法平台數據這邊的競爭因為現在的話呢我覺得他已經不是像單純之前我們講的在討論的Foodpanda跟這個Uber的一個合併那現在的話透過這樣子併購下來之後其實我從科技的角度我比較擔心的是這種跨國的Super的APP的數據"},{"start":3325.314,"end":3351.92,"text":"跟他這種演算法黑箱的一個不透明的一個鞏斷那這個地方呢會對我們造成的影響就是說因為你Grab有這些的數據再加上Foodpanda然後他背後的股東還是有Uber所以這兩個平台的演算法的一致性或者是調解或是他採取的機制加上這些數據說實在的他可能會影響到我們整個的動態定價"},{"start":3353.16,"end":3368.995,"text":"那不管是形成對外送員或者是消費者或者是這個店家的一個平臺的一個一個就是對我們的這種數位的這樣子的一個殖民造成我們的一個數位上的剝削那不曉得這一個主委對這個有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":3369.355,"end":3389.87,"text":"我想委員關切的議題在上次我有稍微談過就是說基本上我們不會採過於非常形式的審查所以它背後的股權結構彼此之間是不是有董事兼聰是不是有跨公司持股這個它的控制力的展現都是我們在審查這個案子我們會繼續去觀察的因為這個地方有點難的地方是在於是說"},{"start":3393.298,"end":3411.735,"text":"這個他在做這件事情的時候其實那個演算法的透明性他往往會用商業機密的方式那也就是不公開所以你可能沒辦法去直接去detect他那可能就變成是間接所以我才說這個你可能要請一些相關的專家甚至辦很多"},{"start":3412.715,"end":3430.435,"text":"所以我們這個都會討論的會議因為我覺得在這個地方我們先未雨綢繆別人沒看到的東西因為新加坡在做這一塊的地方已經有做一點類似的裁罰你們也可以去參考這樣的案例那為什麼我這樣講因為我們的外送專法過了之後"},{"start":3431.296,"end":3450.821,"text":"雖然我們解決了比如說疊單解決了這個透明度的這個問題但是我覺得在演算法這邊的一個軟停權然後它透過市場供需調節的機制來做我覺得這個是有一些疑慮的好不好這個再請公平會在未來的執行再好好思考是 謝謝接下來的話我們請這一個經濟部"},{"start":3456.895,"end":3478.977,"text":"我想今天另外一個很重要的議題的話基本上我想就是稻採砂石然後再回舔這個問題我相信很多委員都說過了那我這邊的話想要說明的是說雖然我們跟經濟部有溝通過其實我也蠻正向的比如說在加重刑法的罰則"},{"start":3479.798,"end":3501.476,"text":"但是我覺得在罰款上面還有是不是可以用按日連續處罰直到他恢復為止因為我覺得這樣子的嚇阻力才夠那為什麼像剛剛這個所謂的兩千萬一億是因為我們在海域這海域的稻採這邊你們就開到一億了所以我是覺得你不能說海域跟陸地上有差別"},{"start":3503.709,"end":3510.214,"text":"這個照請經濟部是不是可以思考因為你不能說我倒在海裡的然後跟倒採土地的是不一樣的"},{"start":3511.4,"end":3534.612,"text":"跟委員說明 首先土石採取法目前的這個法則已經是水土保持法或是區域計劃法裡面相對的比較高的第二個部分 事實上我們在採法的時候也要考慮到執法還有包括比例的原則 剛剛委員所說的1億元的部分我們在涉及到營業的部分或是產生包括"},{"start":3535.612,"end":3552.208,"text":"人民的生命財產的這個安全的這個危害或是因為你的第二條就是這樣這現行法案以船舶其他機械在下列區域中華民國內水不含內陸水域領海這海域嘛人家陸地跟海域不一樣"},{"start":3554.851,"end":3582.986,"text":"這個海域的部分因為他現行的這個沒有我是說一致啦一致啦好不好抓在陸地上的人比較多啦這個是我的看法第二個剛剛很多委員也提到過就是說你今天的沒入陰沒入等等其實我覺得這些不管我們要處罰行為人不管是沒入他身材的機具我覺得這些都是強制性要高一點就像剛剛那位委員講的來一台我就扣一台來十台我扣十台對不對"},{"start":3584.066,"end":3604.964,"text":"然後像剛剛邱委員講的就是有時候我們只懲罰到司機或客車那我覺得背後的話這些的真正的幕後主使當然你們的回覆我有跟你們的主委討論過因為他說這個東西可能就是刑法上連帶對不對會去處罰這個後面的集團這樣子所以我這邊也沒有特別僵持但是如果"},{"start":3606.545,"end":3633.59,"text":"這個行政院的版本願意把這些的連帶後面的背後集團對不對這整個繩之以法不管是透過這個重罰重刑我覺得我們都應該支持好不好目前院裡面審理的這個方向跟委員所說的大致是一致的好那我們就盡快因為剛剛很多人來跟我拜託就說你們行政院的版本快一點就這樣子好不好因為我今天還是要主要寫謝謝你啦因為這是很重大的議題謝謝"},{"start":3637.165,"end":3637.706,"text":"好 謝謝來 趕快先過來因為下個委員在等 謝謝接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做詢答"},{"start":3663.32,"end":3670.09,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政務協會首長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體機的女士先生有請公平教育委員會陳主任委員好 我們請陳主委"},{"start":3676.052,"end":3701.889,"text":"主委好,這個外送平台引起矚目那它的店、客、員要兼顧各方公平那跨市場的居室的結合審查要跨部會呢?我們來看一下來,Grab那Foodpanda是福是禍呢?報紙報導說這個呢,當這個消息曝光啊消費者擔心外送費會漲價但是呢,外送員擔心會被剝削這個引起兩方的擔憂,再往下看"},{"start":3702.449,"end":3724.775,"text":"那麼這個非常的複雜,跨國公司交叉投資怎麼樣,公平會怎麼樣檢視這個股權結構呢?我們看一下,就上次被駁回Fupenda併購之後呢這個Grab它是有入股Uber,Uber又去入股Delivery Hero但是Delivery Hero又是Fupenda的母公司,Grab現在要併購這個Fupenda"},{"start":3726.795,"end":3754.107,"text":"好啦買家跟賣家和對手你中有我我中有你請問公平會怎麼樣去判斷這些複雜的股權結構還是是資本併購還是具有影響力那個跟委員報告一下我們對於這個背後的股權將它持股這些事情我們在審查的時候都會審不過跟委員報告就是說法律並不禁止事業可以做跨國跨股所以當我們要以這個理由來質疑它這個結合的時候我們需要有更具體的事證這個事證包含"},{"start":3754.807,"end":3768.453,"text":"他們在過去是不是曾經有利用這種交叉持股的方式來做一些限制計劃很好很高興公平我注意到因為這是在我看到媒體呢有一個王博士這樣寫好往下看那麼除了這個資本併購是一個考量之外聯合行為啊財團的資本呢複雜"},{"start":3770.894,"end":3793.457,"text":"如果說今天台塑跟中油的董事長拿起電話說明天油價我們來定個什麼價格這是聯合行為很好抓嘛但是如果有A公司他吃又假公司跟乙公司的股權分別都兩邊都派有董事這兩個董事分別在各自的這個董事會提出的意見做了同樣的決定糟糕了這是不是聯合行為會不會有利益綁定你們怎麼看"},{"start":3794.277,"end":3819.413,"text":"同樣如果有具體的事證 這也有可能構成聯合行為雖然他是少數股權 跨公司的少數股權 是不是讓我們聯合行為的判斷更為複雜更難當然 當然 這一直都是一個問題 是 好 那往下看喔那麼現有的法律呢 要如何平衡四方的交易公平 舉例現在法一個什麼 一個外送專法 對不對外送專法 外送員很重視對於負擔到貨物利益來講 外送員他付出了勞動力 得到了酬勞"},{"start":3823.856,"end":3847.928,"text":"但是他仍然擔心他的權益那就這個平台業者來講呢因為他掌握了資金流跟資訊流可是他還抱怨怎麼樣成本增加同樣的消費者他說我要取得你的外送服務我要付費用那店家也是這樣子啊你讓我曝光有被消費者訂購的這個機會但是你要給我抽成他們也擔心當你外送平台抱怨成本上升的時候消費者跟商家都要負擔這個轉嫁的成本主委怎麼看"},{"start":3851.156,"end":3879.726,"text":"這個就是平台經濟的特色同樣既是共生但是彼此之間存在潛在利益衝突所以公平會的職權有限我們大概只能夠針對他對市場競爭這一塊很好你說職權有限所以我們來看到其他國家的做法剛剛趙也提到了新加坡的模式新加坡有一個公共交通理事會PTC他決定公共運輸的票價他是獨立機關有各界人代表專家票價的調整公司要考慮到CPI工資變動能源價格生產力的提取率"},{"start":3880.226,"end":3907.927,"text":"還有容量的提升指標等等等廣大社會各界之後呢他所做的費率決定他才能夠獲取勞工的信任也能平衡消費者擔心成本轉向的問題那你認不認為類似的案例政府要不要介入制定費率當然這涉及到跨部會事實上我以目前台灣我目前的法治架構其他部會也是有在介入這個案子只是說也許不是像新加坡這麼全面性的是像勞動部他有定義一個費用嘛那這樣會造成市場的不效率"},{"start":3910.829,"end":3933.72,"text":"當然每個機關他有他各自的職場目標要實現那從公平會角度來看某些個行為我們會提醒部會可能要注意到市場的反應好 那往下看所以現行公平會的審查機制是完善你看你們考慮市佔率 考慮消費者利益對不對 這寫得很清楚啊但是除了市佔率為重點 除了消費者之外勞工跟商家的溢價能力如何保障以這個富培拿這個例子來講"},{"start":3934.44,"end":3946.571,"text":"Grab這個事情來講你說這個平台業者未來的這個交叉投資還有跨市場的這樣的情況那你怎麼樣只有現有的條文現有的機制夠嗎只講到消費者利益夠嗎"},{"start":3948.41,"end":3968.363,"text":"我想譬如說以勞工為例好了勞工的議題當然勞動部他有他關切的焦點以我們的角度來看我們可能會去界定一個勞動力需求的市場然後在這個市場裡面去觀察平台跟勞動力的供給彼此之間的供需的情況一樣回歸到市場精神的機制來審查這個議題一樣可以審但是我們的切入點跟勞動部不會一樣"},{"start":3968.983,"end":3992.15,"text":"這樣講有點比較原則比較像在課堂上討論來我們看很具體的企業呢已從市場壟斷進化到生態系的建構我們看到這個超級平台不管是Apple還是Google還是呢這個Amazon你看在美國FTC通通把它起訴壟斷在歐盟呢有數位市場法禁止它壟斷數據剛召委在此前也講到"},{"start":3993.03,"end":4019.14,"text":"數位市場法要求開放真的Amazon禁止使用第三方賣家的非公開數據像這些做法公平會都有去蒐集嗎這是在4月時下一個余教授提出來的新考題啊那個跟委員報告一下我們最近發布的這個AI生存式AI的政策聲明裡面我們特別點出未來的競爭太陽可能會逐步走到生態系的競爭這是委員這邊所談的所以包括數位支付商戶的關注但是我要跟委員報告就是說當生態系競爭成型以後"},{"start":4020.541,"end":4041.104,"text":"那個競爭的對手就會有不一樣對沒有錯就很複雜就越來越複雜往下看所以呢公平會就不應該侷限單一市場的壟斷與否而是因應全球市場的趨勢像你說這樣的一個生態系的情況那麼用龐大生態系跨市場的企業檢視它水平垂直跨市場的影響力再來判斷它是不是會有壟斷會有聯合行為是不是這樣子"},{"start":4041.744,"end":4058.105,"text":"對這是一個困難的問題但是我們是朝這個目標好那就要求你做因為我們在預算審查所以說今天我們看到以這個來講以這個外送平台來講在資本的部分你們要審查它有沒有要跳脫市佔率的考量要判斷它有沒有實質利率的連結有沒有跨市場優勢這裡面要審查在資本"},{"start":4059.927,"end":4080.686,"text":"資本端你們要這樣審查就是平台嘛那勞工端呢你們是不是要判斷要不要訂定費率的介入要去評估那目前執法的制定勞動部做了要求確尊專法也有勞動部介入了以商教的部分未來的法人審查原創法可能速發部要接起來但是像房大售啦自我優待啦或強迫折扣是不是公平會也要來對這幾個"},{"start":4082.427,"end":4104.099,"text":"我說的橘色的這個議題你們有沒有評估搭受自我偏好強迫折扣這些東西公平法裡面是可以來審查的是可以來審查的所以除了這樣的話其他我紫色的部分是不是要跨部會合作或立法協助我們其實在案子審查當中我們會徵詢其他部會的意見所以實質的跨部會合作是有在做有在做好那最後呢結論"},{"start":4105.24,"end":4131.605,"text":"因為以你們剛剛報告您的報告當中有提到你們的有一個反托拉斯基金當中你們的用途是做數位經濟競爭政策研究及倡議計畫對不對是那我希望你們這個計畫在今年的年度要研究公平委針對第一複雜股權交叉持股委的壟斷跟聯合行為的審查方式第二如果市場形成寡占政府要不要介入制定費率什麼制定這兩個部分特別去研究可以嗎"},{"start":4132.743,"end":4157.675,"text":"我們可以回去研究一下另外我希望公平會在審查GREP的結合案審查完畢之後我們沒有要干預你們審查完畢之後希望你們提一個書面說明說明你們在審查的結果有沒有考量到加沙吃苦、跨市場生態系的優勢勞工的權益如何保障以及商家的保障可以嗎這個我們可以我們要大家看個案的證據當然審查完畢之後我說你們審查完畢之後就這幾個部分出個書面說明可以可以我可以跟委員說好謝謝謝謝公平會"},{"start":4161.104,"end":4178.509,"text":"好 我們謝謝鍾嘉斌委員 接下來我們有請楊瓊英委員質詢感謝主席楊瓊英發言 邀請公平會 邀請公平會主委"},{"start":4182.509,"end":4210.409,"text":"委員長主要好這個Uber在4月17號宣布要以2.7億歐元來收購德國外送平台的Delivery Hero的4.5%的一個股權那使得它的總持股會達到7%左右但是我們也知道Hero正式撲片打台灣母公司那Uber本身又有Grab"},{"start":4211.169,"end":4228.886,"text":"他大概有13.1%的這個股權那而且他還有保有董事的一個席次那換句話說Uber呢同時是國內北收購普遍黨台灣暗中的買方股東那同時他也是賣方的母公司的一個股東"},{"start":4229.787,"end":4235.61,"text":"也就是說台灣市場主要的競爭者那前年公平會我們才以合併後市佔率過高恐怕會影響主要的競爭者這個價格上漲的這個理由所以否決了那個Uber直接收購Fupenda在台灣我們做這樣的一個決議"},{"start":4254.261,"end":4279.138,"text":"但是我們看到現在Uber改以入股母公司的方式重新來建立利益的關係這等於是形成了橫跨買賣雙方的三角持股的結構所以請教主委在這樣的一個情況之下你是否會認定Grip是獨立"},{"start":4279.918,"end":4295.909,"text":"的買方那未來你在審查回本收購撫片達的這個案子的時候你是否會把Uber的交叉持股董事席次以及實質利益連結一併來納入"},{"start":4297.57,"end":4315.056,"text":"才不會去年你否決那今年就放棄請說明跟委員報告一下當然去年的案子跟今年的案子不太一樣至少就是市場結合後結果不一樣當然委員提到這個問題是一個重要的問題那我也一再的表示就是說這個問題我們在審查過程一定會審查那這邊要附帶跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":4315.876,"end":4331.093,"text":"法律上既然沒有禁止公司可以跨公司來持股所以假設我們要以這個跨公司持股對競爭的疑慮來審查這個案子的話我們必須要有更多的行為面的事證所謂行為面的事證就是說我們要先去預測甚至於去判斷讓他結合以後他會不會用"},{"start":4333.616,"end":4347.789,"text":"契約或是其他方式對 你講到這個重點了所以大家都非常的關心因為法律上沒有如此那每一個型態 商業行為它的方式一直變在變那我政府"},{"start":4348.703,"end":4367.032,"text":"永遠都是那一套的一個法律所以大家關心在您剛剛所說的也是一個重點實質的影響力到底是什麼你務必要納入啊對 這個我們會具體如果我們有疑慮我們會具體要提供一些事證來配合我們來調查看是不是能夠產生實質的影響力"},{"start":4368.413,"end":4392.841,"text":"因為這個規約本已經在3月27號你已經向你遞交了收購忽偏大的台灣業務的一個申請所以大家看到這個議題一定要好好的以公平消費者的一個原則這個非常的重要接下來本席要請教在海運的部分還有凱旋以及天性"},{"start":4393.806,"end":4416.389,"text":"那麼現在它從2019年它透過了共同設立管理公司的一個協調航班以及票款的一個拆分那實質已經形成了聯合排班限制航班的供給那三家業者在布袋跟馬公的航線它的市佔率幾乎將近達到六成"},{"start":4417.23,"end":4421.451,"text":"它雖然沒有共同的來定價它透過了控制班次跟債容量那等於是讓市場去失去了正常的這個競爭機制那所以這換句話說 也反映了產業它不一定是靠聯合漲價來影響市場 對不對對 你講的沒錯啊 我們聯合企業不是只限於聯合漲價"},{"start":4442.617,"end":4460.602,"text":"那像這樣子他透過了聯合限量 聯合排辦 聯合分配市場讓消費者他沒有選擇 奶業者也沒有改立即改善服務的這個量人的一個壓力所以要請教主委像這樣的一個情況你最後你只有罰了多少 各罰十萬塊"},{"start":4468.14,"end":4484.751,"text":"你們的財儲是最後個罰十萬塊所以這樣子是不是低估了整個聯合限量對於市場的競爭跟消費者權益的一個傷害那未來你是否會重新去檢討聯合行為的一個財罰標準"},{"start":4489.955,"end":4506.645,"text":"因為聯合行為的裁罰的級距是蠻寬的啦所以它有最低到最高一定的級距但是我們在個案裡面的裁罰我們會綜合各種因素來判斷那這個案子主要原因是因為我們分析後的結果雖然他們是聯合行為但是他們對市場影響的程度並不是太高我們深怕"},{"start":4507.766,"end":4519.891,"text":"轉了一個彎轉了一個方式讓業者把划環的部分當成是微不足道的他的一個經營成本但是影響到消費者所以現在本席跟你討論的另外一個議題也就是方式"},{"start":4526.773,"end":4550.101,"text":"因為業者已經將方式有所做調整那你們必須要去討論現在的經營方式那你們的督導方式要怎麼樣去應對這是本席我個人跟你請教的這個議題的一個重點你去盤點你可以怎麼樣去調整去調整你的方式不讓消費者有所損害無從選擇"},{"start":4554.5,"end":4573.633,"text":"我想聯合行為對業者的宣導我們是積極在做這可能是我們最重要的一點好你去盤點然後方案怎麼樣調整告訴本席順便資料給本席給個人給我那最後一個議題公平會你在115年呢不公平競爭行為調查當中你編列了今年度的260"},{"start":4575.074,"end":4579.736,"text":"226萬9千元那增幅是28.26%比起109年到114年那7月底你的這個第21條跟25條的處分只有15件那你才華的這個總額也"},{"start":4592.355,"end":4621.07,"text":"只有243萬那但是我們討論一個議題也就是營利營運費用跟採購的限制這兩項這對於整個龐大的市場現在是整個市場的一個趨勢那如果是這樣子你的答案告訴我們只有15件只有200出頭外那等於沒有實質的震懾力那所以呢會嚴重的影響到整個加盟交易的一個次序跟"},{"start":4621.71,"end":4625.191,"text":"保持失業的一個公平競爭所以本席要請教主委隱匿費用跟強制採購在整個這個家門的企業當中會產生資訊不對等的這兩項項目你是否會落實怎麼樣去保障家門主的一個權益"},{"start":4641.938,"end":4658.351,"text":"我想這個營利費用跟採購限制這些東西都是在我們的處理原則裡面有明確要求業者在加盟契約書裡面還明確的揭露出來所以這整個處分安全通常都是因為他該揭露而沒有揭露對 那怎麼辦呢那我們藉由過去這幾年不斷的積極的宣導其實沒有不斷的知道那你的宣導就是15件啊跟200出頭萬的滑環而已啊"},{"start":4662.08,"end":4686.241,"text":"從某個角度來看 所以你現在自己都囊囊上口可以講說問題出在這裡 該揭露沒揭露啊那該揭露沒揭露 你的緩緩又是如此 案件就只有15件了那要怎麼辦 你要什麼樣的調整方案去監管我們會積極的去監管這樣的一個行為 那當然宣導也是很重要的事情所以趕快去加強好不好 對 那緩緩的部分要綜合考慮好 趕快去加強 最後我請次長"},{"start":4692.816,"end":4716.133,"text":"市長我們第二階段呢 召委排定了這個土石這個採取法的這個部分那大家非常關心 包括原住民他們應當要有的權益就陳儒剛剛市長你所說的回歸環境景觀就是大家都非常重視在怎麼樣均衡那這個法案呢"},{"start":4716.713,"end":4730.71,"text":"的決定是很重要的怎麼樣去回歸環境的景觀所以不只是在這個第三條原住民的這個部分還有特別就是大家比較爭議的在第36條"},{"start":4733.412,"end":4752.907,"text":"36條 有原先的2000萬也有說8000萬 也有1億的等等所以待會會實質來討論但是我們覺得很奇怪 既然行政部門認為很重要對於我們整個環境也很重要在這樣的一個情況之下 行政院版為什麼還沒有出來 什麼時候會出來"},{"start":4754.765,"end":4774.126,"text":"什麼時候會出來剛剛主委委員已經關心過我們希望院裡面兩個禮拜裡面可以送出院版這個部分來第二個部分委員所提到的為什麼討論這麼久不但是抓到犯罪人而已不但是裁罰而已我們重要的是委員講的環境警官要整戶回來"},{"start":4775.066,"end":4793.916,"text":"因為整戶的部分 威爾尼亞只要涉及到很多的單位包括內政部 包括甚至是農業部的這個部分我們必須要把它細緻的把它溝通做一個比較好的一個整戶因為我們希望這些犯罪行為獲得遏止之外環境還可以去恢復回來"},{"start":4795.397,"end":4808.985,"text":"這個是我們在努力的這個方向所以剛剛次長你回答就是兩個禮拜內行政院版會出來我們希望說院裡面可以去審核因為大家這麼關心你行政院更要有責任了對不對而且橫向的一個聯繫討論更要積極啊兩個禮拜內會提出來我們希望依照這樣子來努力"},{"start":4823.112,"end":4827.434,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝次長請陳廷飛委員質詢請經濟部任市長委員好市長我想要跟你討論一個比較嚴肅的問題因為"},{"start":4852.496,"end":4869.833,"text":"最近大家有在說雲加南的水情告急然後開始說嘉義雙潭的蓄水跌破三成所以雲南啟動區域調度應急人工藥蒸魚待命但我一發現"},{"start":4872.025,"end":4892.237,"text":"如果這樣的比較之下我們台南更恐怖我們台南的水情白河水庫只剩17.5%曾文水庫只剩16.7%只有烏山頭水庫目前因為可能當時候的一些好大雨下的"},{"start":4893.257,"end":4918.302,"text":"地方有比較準確一點所以烏山頭水庫它的蓄水量還有53.4%然後南化水庫是38.8%好那我們現在看到這樣的一個水情狀況表示雲嘉南確實是已經有在告急了一點那我們怎麼辦"},{"start":4919.604,"end":4940.189,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個嚴肅的議題每年到這個時候特別都是一個氣候變遷 旱到都是平反的時候有時候是一手防汛一手抗旱比如說從今天開始未來的三天我們依照氣象署的這個預報可能在我們全台西部地區會帶來一些封面的一些的降雨"},{"start":4940.882,"end":4959.111,"text":"那當然我們就要做好防汛之外針對於抗旱的工作我們特別要重視特別是現在委員我們南部像台南地區現在的很多的稻米要抽稅了開始要放水了所以委員也注意到說我們曾文水庫跟烏山頭水庫的蓄水率稍微下降"},{"start":4959.651,"end":4983.366,"text":"但是這個裡面我們除了掌握封面來臨了之後做好跟農業部門的節水的一個調控之外水利署在下禮拜一也會召開了水情會議來去讓我們的這個水情的供應更加的穩定除此之外我再跟委員補充一點過去城門委員會的一個支持我們在前瞻的計畫裡面珍珠串的部分以真穩"},{"start":4984.182,"end":5005.733,"text":"烏山頭跟南化為例過去南化水庫啊在這個時候常常蓄水量不到2000萬立方公尺那是不是因為透過珍珠串的真穩南化聯通管的工程讓這個南化的這個水庫可以達到3000萬以上的這個蓄水率那當然我們有調度的工作之外管理也非常的重要所以我們在這幾年加強了清淤"},{"start":5007.774,"end":5033.702,"text":"這也是我們委員過去的支持在水利署才有這部分的一個成就當然我們要密切的注意在未來幾天的降雨因為前幾天在4月初的時候的一個降雨在苗栗的這個地方雖然說是春雨可是它的下雨量時雨量都超過了100毫米左右這個部分是我們要關注的水利署也會依照預測的情形來成立相關的所有的必要時成立應變"},{"start":5035.762,"end":5057.442,"text":"現在是非常關鍵的時刻就像次長所說的我們一方面要防汛一方面又要抗旱這是現階段非常矛盾的一個狀態所以我們經濟部我們水利署就扮演非常重要的角色因為水情的部分也是你們然後呢防汛也是你們"},{"start":5058.363,"end":5081.736,"text":"所以這兩個部分到底要怎麼做尤其你剛所說的未來我們所面對的可能是農業灌溉還有我們在產業運作的部分還有民生用水就是說我們當在調度的時候要怎麼讓這三個重要的環節不會互相影響不會互相排擠"},{"start":5083.097,"end":5107.834,"text":"這才是最重要的尤其你今天有互相排擠對於民眾他都會覺得自己被剝奪感所以我也希望說市長在這個部分因為我們的珍珠串計畫確實是我們很大的一個期待那我們現在聯通館我們三區聯通館大概都已經完成了現在聯通館完了之後那麼"},{"start":5109.215,"end":5137.934,"text":"現在要做試驗囉現在要珍珠串到底真的串的起來串不起來到底是不是能夠達到我們當時候預期的狀況跟效果現在人民就在檢驗了所以我覺得在這個時候未來三天的封面他是不是能夠下載真正需要的地方未知數所以我們是否如何利用封面能夠創造一些更多的"},{"start":5138.896,"end":5140.246,"text":"一些储备"},{"start":5141.523,"end":5170.705,"text":"這才是最重要的所以我們不算是下雨來的時候才開始應變所以委員講的各標的這個用水我們當掌握明確的降雨訊息的時候就要做水門的一個調解那過去我們台南漲水工發揮很大的效果那我們也希望利用科技的部分不管是智慧灌溉在關田地區都有很大的一個試驗出來而且以具體的成效特別是我們要關注的是南部地區因為"},{"start":5171.385,"end":5193.556,"text":"一起到座 抽稅完了之後 很快的喔它六月 五月下旬 六月就二季就開始就要開始工作 所以我們會珍惜每一滴的水資源我們希望留住水 然後我們希望做好防災的準備不要造成災害我們希望說 我們中央跟地方政府一定要做好配合"},{"start":5194.016,"end":5208.198,"text":"是而且我們如何用珍珠串然後又科技造水剛剛我們那個次長有講到的科技的部分我們如何科技灌溉科技造水這個如何聯合運用"},{"start":5209.48,"end":5231.973,"text":"都是我們現在如何利用高科技的狀態去維持我們目前所需要的用水量所以我覺得這個時間點尤其我們現在預知了未來三天封面我們當然祈求老天爺要下在對的地方可是萬一沒有下在對的地方我們必須要開始防汛"},{"start":5233.474,"end":5248.481,"text":"那好我們如何利用這一波的封面萬一不是下在該下的地方然後我們怎麼利用這個封面要把水引用在真的對的地方好這個其實就是"},{"start":5249.241,"end":5273.246,"text":"你們的智慧了 很難很難 但是我覺得當我們用了珍珠串用了科技灌溉 科技照水我們現在都在用AI我們希望用更多的資訊能夠把這些所謂的缺水的狀態把它壓到最低對 這個協調的工作 中央地方的配合的工作很難嘛"},{"start":5273.846,"end":5288.858,"text":"但是過去委員也知道 包括三月期的治理 我們跟地方 包括委員幫忙很多那很快的治理就達成一定的成效 至於在水資源的管理的部分 因為這個部分更需要 因為這水"},{"start":5289.839,"end":5308.252,"text":"這是一個稀缺的資源 人沒有水是沒有辦法生活的那農作也沒有辦法耕作 民生的部分包括產業的部分影響都很大所以我們不管是在海水淡化或是在農業灌溉節水的這個部分特別是在農業的節水的部分 我們近幾年都有跟農業部門有很大的一個"},{"start":5308.812,"end":5336.742,"text":"合作跟溝通的一個平台我剛剛有說明的水利署下禮拜一會召開水情會議也會針對於剛剛委員所詢問的部分來特別交換意見進行協調的工作我麻煩次長你把你們跨部會的結論到時候送一份到我辦公室來然後到底中央跟地方要怎麼連結然後跨部會又連結我覺得在這個時候才是要發揮它最大效用的一個狀態謝謝"},{"start":5339.551,"end":5363.597,"text":"好 謝謝陳廷輝委員 謝謝好 接下來我們有請鄭振淺委員質詢謝謝主席 我想請一下公民教育委員會陳志明代理主委請公平會主委"},{"start":5371.803,"end":5381.808,"text":"我們先看一下最近很多的虛擬網紅出現因為整個AI的蓬勃發展很多虛擬網紅出現這幾位虛擬網紅我不知道你認不認識"},{"start":5385.63,"end":5400.465,"text":"跟委員講我全部不認識是沒有問題因為這在國外當中其實很火熱然後因為他們的產生的時候就是不只是出現一些content的提供而已他們也開始介入一些直播帶貨的一個情況"},{"start":5401.406,"end":5428.338,"text":"因為介入直播帶貨的時候我們其實就會碰到跟我們公平會就會有點相關的問題那對於這樣的一個情況的時候我們看到幾個研究報告因為整個AI虛擬網紅他們出現之後那麼有研究報告指出來有25%的消費者是願意買單的而且也實際在買單當中那這樣的情況的時候就會產生一些我們特別關注的一個問題"},{"start":5429.498,"end":5447.24,"text":"就對於這樣子的一個虛擬網紅他們算不算是我們在公平交易當中特別提到的一個見證者這樣的一個角色也請主委回答一下因為虛擬用AI的工具基本上AI也是一個工具啦是在或者是背後操縱這個工具是"},{"start":5447.6,"end":5465.798,"text":"所以假設有符合我們見證廣告甚至於不實廣告的相關規定這個都是不實廣告可以介入的那對於這不實廣告的介入當中因為我們之前對於所謂的見證者因為是自然人的狀態的時候我們很容易去找到他們的一個責任要怎麼樣去承擔那對於這樣的一個虛擬網紅的一個情況的時候那我們到時候"},{"start":5470.763,"end":5484.932,"text":"追究如果說這虛擬網紅他們到時候見證的過程當中有產生一些彩虹線的一個行為的時候我們要怎麼去追究他是針對創造IP的人還是持有IP的人"},{"start":5485.672,"end":5503.932,"text":"可不可以請主委做一個簡單的回應這個就是在我們公民法裡面所謂廣告主的認定我們要把責任加諸在誰的身上那這個公民會基本上有一個原則就是說第一個我們會看到他對於廣告的內容是不是有參與第二個他有沒有透過這個廣告會有利益如果符合這個條件基本上就是我們可以追責的對象"},{"start":5504.973,"end":5507.698,"text":"因為他是AI嘛 對不對所以說你要追責的狀態的時候廣告組沒有問題所以你說這個虛擬的網紅他們本身也要負擔"},{"start":5518.486,"end":5547.686,"text":"連帶的一個賠償責任虛擬網紅本身就是虛擬嘛但是是那個操縱那個後面的操縱的人對不對所以基本上是我們是針對於擁有這個IP的人去做創造這個AI虛擬人物創造跟擁有的人不一定是一樣的所以我想要去理解的狀態是擁有這個虛擬網紅的人的時候他要去負擔這個連帶責任那如果說他是授權出去的時候是被授權的人"},{"start":5548.846,"end":5570.997,"text":"他就用這樣的一個廣告行為的時候他要去負擔這樣的一個責任他們標準還是一樣就是即使他是授權的方式只要他對於廣告內容他知悉有參與而且他透過這個行為獲有利益都不排除是一個廣告主義好 理解那我想說因為這個部分因為現在已經不斷地在開始產生了那我們也希望公平會能夠特別去關注那麼另外一個部分就是"},{"start":5571.777,"end":5595.184,"text":"我們對於所謂演算法定價這個部分相關的一個問題產生那我看到說之前的時候我們公平會要曾經針對深層市人工智慧相關競爭法議題徵詢公眾意見的這個部分當中的時候對於所謂的演算法定價所產生出來的一些問題的時候感覺目前公平會是採取一個低度介入的狀態"},{"start":5596.224,"end":5623.534,"text":"就事情發生了之後我們再去做一個事後監管的一個狀態是不是這樣的情況原則上因為如果你涉及到演算法定價我們不太以目前來講我們不太適合事先就要求業者演算法介入所以我們大概都是事後如果出現議題我們再介入那剛剛委員談到這個AI的政策聲明我們之所以沒有說積極的表示要介入是因為從我們公共徵詢的意見回收業者普遍來講他們認為目前台灣還沒有出現這樣的一個問題"},{"start":5624.534,"end":5651.38,"text":"OK 因為還沒有出現那我在想說以目前來講因為公平會議之前有提到說你們要提出修法要曾經去新設一個這個法規修法那我想說是不是表示目前基本上是處在一個無法可管的一個情況有它的局限因為就是說演算法定價往往會涉及到不是同業水平的關係它有可能是一個平台一個平台跟它不是屬於同一個市場的競爭以目前的法律來講我們就很難用聯合行為來管它"},{"start":5652.841,"end":5678.141,"text":"不過因為 其實坦白說自動定價這樣子的一個演算法定價其實已經開始非常的成熟其實很多訂房系統也都是用這樣子的方式在走所以說如果說我們要等到新的修法之後再去開始去針對這個問題那本席倒是特別提到針對公民交易法第20條當中的時候它第三四款都有特別提到一個或者是"},{"start":5678.601,"end":5698.573,"text":"不正當方法這個部分也許可以把不正當方法這個部分把它做個擴大的一個解釋針對這樣子的一個演算法定價的時候也許可以在我們還沒有修法完成的時候不要出現空窗期我們可以先把它包裹進來演員講得完全正確就是第20條特別是第4款的部分"},{"start":5699.293,"end":5721.447,"text":"第三管第四管我們都是在這個因為聯合行為有它的侷限的情況底下我們事實上也有案子根據二四條第四管來處理就是那個始作俑者好那我們希望因為坦白說因為這兩年AI開始非常蓬勃的一個發展然後接下來速度肯定只會更快不會更慢所以我們也希望公平會能夠跟上這樣的一個腳步好不好是不是"},{"start":5722.327,"end":5738.402,"text":"那我在這邊我想特別關注一下其實因為現在所謂的一個跟我們公平會有關的一些聯合行為不只是價格剛剛楊全文有特別提到那個例子他從供需的角度開始去做達到一個聯合行為這樣的一個狀態的一個樣態"},{"start":5741.124,"end":5762.266,"text":"那我想說這邊想請教一個部分因為我們看到從109年到113年針對聯合行為的行政處分統計我們看到了一個情況就是說主動調查的部分坦白說大概都只有兩件因為110那七件事實上是因為它有類似的一個案件基本上是這樣的情況"},{"start":5763.527,"end":5778.719,"text":"那大部分都是檢舉案件的部分那檢舉案件的比例占比到達113年已經將近87.5%將近九成我想請教一下114年的占比大概是多少檢舉的占比大概是占多少"},{"start":5779.74,"end":5799.779,"text":"主委這邊有沒有數字我現在手邊沒有我可以查一下再跟您報告因為我們看到這個狀態的時候檢舉案件的占比顯然是非常的重這可能代表一個狀態就是我們公平會能夠主動去調查偵辦的能量也許有限因為我看幾乎每年都是只有兩件"},{"start":5800.941,"end":5818.204,"text":"那其他的部分的時候呢都是用那個檢舉的一個案件那我們也看到了一個事情就是在去年年底的時候我們看到公民會這邊有針對檢舉違法聯合行為獎金發放辦法這個地方去做了一個調整"},{"start":5818.904,"end":5846.224,"text":"做了一個調整就是針對依據網路電視廣播報章或其他一般民眾可以取得的公開資料提出檢舉的部分基本上現在就不發放獎金而且要追回對不對我看新做的一個辦法一個修法出來結果是這樣子我想請教一下之前我們所收到的檢舉當中是依照公開訊息民眾來檢舉佔比大概是多少"},{"start":5846.904,"end":5865.468,"text":"占比我沒有具體的數字但是占比很高很高對但是因為就是因為這樣的情況我們發現民眾的檢舉往往就是網路上看到一個然後就一頁下來就直接丟給公平會OK那我要講的狀態是因為我們剛剛看到上一頁那狀態將近目前大概有九成的狀態都是民眾檢舉的情況可是公平會本身的"},{"start":5866.508,"end":5881.916,"text":"主動偵查的能量其實是有限的那如果說我們現在修改這個獎金辦法的時候讓比方說用這樣子的方式檢舉的基本上都沒有辦法得到獎金基本上我們只支持深喉嚨的一個狀態內部檢舉的一個情況"},{"start":5885.058,"end":5909.171,"text":"但是就是說我們還是會積極的鼓勵民眾能夠檢舉希望民眾提供給我們市政是我們一般人所看不到的理解我們擔心的狀態是說如果說因為我們現在看到上月數字有將近九成都是靠民眾檢舉那我們現在調整他的獎金發放辦法的時候可能會導致民眾檢舉的意願大幅的下降那我們要用什麼方法去"},{"start":5909.671,"end":5925.776,"text":"作為一個平衡我想這是公平會這邊必須要去面對的一個問題我了解委員關切的點你怕我們到時候檢舉的案子會比較沒有誘因來檢舉那這點我們會考慮我們在網路上監測或是這個所謂民生物品的一個聯合行為監測事實上我們都持續有在做主動的透過網路來監測"},{"start":5927.551,"end":5933.657,"text":"好 那我最後針對那個我們有一個坦托拉斯基金從110年到115年對於網路不實廣告的一個統計數字當中的時候那我們大概看到了一個情況就是"},{"start":5943.586,"end":5966.126,"text":"110行的預算出大概290萬其實坦白說金額不大啦因為公平匯本身的預算金額就不大那我們看到了到了113年增加到450萬金額不大可是比例非常的高可是我們看到的狀態我們主動調查的案件基本上是都一樣沒有什麼很大的改變所以我在想說我們針對不實廣告這個部分"},{"start":5969.441,"end":5989.817,"text":"預算的大幅的提高 因為今年提到了500萬的狀態金額不大 可是比例很高那我們也希望它能夠真正產生好的一個結果跟委員說明一下 金額之所以提高的原因是因為我們發現不時廣告太陽快速的變化然後再加上一些AI技術的生成 就剛剛委員談到了"},{"start":5990.177,"end":6006.737,"text":"所以事實上在我們今年的計畫裡面我們有把AI不實廣告部分我們把它列入請我們會委託外面的政策機構來幫我們協助判斷AI是不是有AI那這個部分都會導致我們的這個預算數必須要增加才有辦法針對案件數的增加還有那個困難度的增加這個部分"},{"start":6006.817,"end":6021.243,"text":"所以北京今天提到這幾個點就是說希望我們公平會這邊預算不高可是我們希望它能夠確實發揮主動調查的能量能夠保障消費者好不好是 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委 謝謝好 我們謝謝鄭振全委員接下來我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":6047.742,"end":6063.213,"text":"好 有請那個主委 公平會主委好 今天這個公平交易委員會的預算"},{"start":6064.528,"end":6080.542,"text":"我們看你的報告裡面提到這個稅率的部分在114年度預算數1億1927萬多元主要是罰還收入截至12月底子處分罰還6106萬元"},{"start":6084.555,"end":6089.121,"text":"處分確定列入收入計28億9326萬6千元請教一下這個26億9千多萬9千多萬是什麼時候這個收到的"},{"start":6104.151,"end":6116.368,"text":"我想這個金額之所以那麼大幅增加主要是因為剛剛在委員談到的這個電容器跟民營電廠那個法環確定所以一下子就進來很多的法環已經收到了嗎今天在6月跟9月"},{"start":6117.541,"end":6146.901,"text":"去年的6月9月還有10月他陸陸續續進來所以已經在去年的就是已經是增加了你們的稅率了好所以如果我們這樣的來當然我們是希望這個依法了依法處理尤其是我們這個詐騙案特別多公平教育的各方面的詐騙案這過去也諮詢了很多次"},{"start":6148.122,"end":6173.002,"text":"所以你的115年度仍然維持1億多的這個稅入可以再增加吧其實路同委員知道因為這個稅入主要是來自於罰還那罰還是有高度的不確定性因為是促送行政救濟等等各方面好 這個我已經談了很多次了這個是完備法制"},{"start":6174.532,"end":6200.647,"text":"這個部分你們特別提到檢討修正公平教育法確實是要修了這個如果我們看上次我質詢的已經質詢了很多次這個公平教育法主要的條文從106年6月14日到現在已經9年9年了都沒有修了這個你們曾經"},{"start":6203.759,"end":6230.314,"text":"公平教育委員會曾經在2023年6月6號議告要修正公平教育法的部分條文結果這麼久了我們現在已經有一個修法小組已經開過一次會我們下禮拜會再開會已經有提出這個準備要修法的條文了已經開始著手在進行議定什麼時候會報行政院這個我目前還沒有確定的期程但是我們會盡快因為"},{"start":6232.984,"end":6248.457,"text":"你們可以參考過去我們在經濟委員會其他立委包括我所提出來的這個現在這個因為詐騙案很多是網路網路詐騙而且是交易啊"},{"start":6249.338,"end":6278.399,"text":"是以教育的名義來去結果都是被詐騙了所以這個不能怎麼樣去因應不要每一次這個都是推給這個司法機關司法機關是最後了但前面前面要有一個非常好的完備的法規好這個部分所以要請這個好接下來請那個經濟部水利署我們經濟部次長"},{"start":6285.319,"end":6310.276,"text":"好 市長今天這個有土石採取法的一個修正條文當然主要是因應之前在高雄的這些土石採取或是其他地方大量造成的一些影響那本席跟我們其他立法委員 住民的立委也非常關注這個第三條"},{"start":6312.518,"end":6328.105,"text":"根据原住民族基本法相关的这些规定能够把这个明确化在整个土石采集法里面像第三条针对不只是原住民自然人"},{"start":6329.538,"end":6346.286,"text":"還包含部落很多傳統的技藝各方面都是部落來為主體的需要希望能夠納入那有關相關的這些石板屋不只是個人家庭包括"},{"start":6347.54,"end":6375.336,"text":"機關、學校也都會有甚至教會也都會有所以這個部分也都能夠把它納入另外就是14條也做了這樣的修正當然我們下午審查的時候也請經濟部支持還有其他的相關的部會我們下午再好好的討論好不好"},{"start":6376.226,"end":6400.757,"text":"好 謝謝委員所提到的這個第三條第一項第七款的部分事實上在原住民基本法的第19條裡面就有規定了對 我們把它明確化因為根據原住民族基本法第34條的規定是說三年內要修相關的法例所以我們要正式把它納入在這個法例裡面好 謝謝委員指導好 謝謝"},{"start":6403.817,"end":6424.312,"text":"好 謝謝鄭天才委員 謝謝那接下來我們請謝玉鳳委員質詢好 謝謝主席我想要請我們經濟部的賴次長請經濟部賴次長"},{"start":6431.911,"end":6459.107,"text":"市長早安我想請教一下就是因為日本的那個GXETS就是他們的碳排他們的碳排減量的這個制度即將要開始來執行了那我想要請問因為我們台灣有非常多的企業在台灣如果有繳納碳費或者是取得減碳的相關的就是志願減量的額度"},{"start":6460.708,"end":6475.553,"text":"那不曉得你們有沒有開始與日本進行協商就是他可以把我們國內的碳費以及志願減量的這個額度獲得日方的認可來減免呢第一個"},{"start":6477.489,"end":6506.474,"text":"有關於協助企業減碳的這個部分我們分為兩個部分來執行第一個在製造部門我們因為國家有禁令的這個路徑這個我們有旗艦計畫在實施那另外的產創條例裡面我們針對於比如說是像低碳或是減冷的這個部分也有一些相關的減免措施至於剛剛委員所詢問到的這個工作因為這個碳費的收取是環境部所主管的部分"},{"start":6507.074,"end":6524.012,"text":"那我們當下我們是關注在我們廠商的所謂的轉型的部分這轉型不管是技術的轉型或是能源使用的轉型那你有沒有瞭解因為過去我們都比較關注的是在歐盟的這個西本"},{"start":6526.073,"end":6538.597,"text":"但是我們現在面對到日本如果他們開始來減碳制度的時候如果我們沒有辦法互相的就是說取得抵減或者是他承認我們在國內繳的這個碳費的話"},{"start":6541.698,"end":6566.048,"text":"有沒有可能台灣的產品進到日本去會面臨到雙重課稅的就是說被課這樣子碳排水的這樣子的同樣的情況那對於我們的出口這就影響到經濟啦是不是對於我們產品輸入的話那就影響到所有的生產的成本啦是不是"},{"start":6566.528,"end":6591.076,"text":"是 針對委員剛剛所關心的部分我們會轉請我們包括產發署的部分針對如何協助企業在針對日本提出來的這些的策略相對的一個應處那另外一個部分的話事實上像西邊的這個徵收包括碳費的部分據我瞭解環境部已經有在做我知道 因為過去我們都是"},{"start":6591.656,"end":6609.941,"text":"考慮到就是歐盟這個部分但是就是說面對到日本的制度已經開始要轉變了尤其是他們現在所涵蓋的是就是平均碳排放量10萬噸以上的企業要納入監管"},{"start":6611.121,"end":6636.222,"text":"對於台灣有多少企業受到相關的影響那我希望經濟部你也要回去好好的盤查好嗎好 是這個部分是不是也要協助他們對於疏日的企業如果未來要進入這樣子的碳排的這個納稅的這個部分的話那也需要對於他們的減碳設備給予協助好嗎是 是"},{"start":6639.585,"end":6646.651,"text":"好好那謝謝喔那我想要再請教我們的公平會的副主委喔謝謝副主委請教一下你上次說我們那個中東的衝突啊導致的這些聯合壟斷的就是漲價的行為啊那你要做調查現在調查的結果怎麼樣"},{"start":6664.486,"end":6691.833,"text":"我們總共目前調查了37家業者北中南都有那目前看起來是第一個價格的確有上漲但是上漲的幅度差距很大那供給面也有點緊縮不過業者最近有跟我們表示說因為政府有所謂的平價專案出來所以那個緊縮的情況有稍微緩減那就供品會的執掌部分我們當然調查有沒有聯合烘台聯合囤積的部分那我們針對我們調查結果來判斷目前是沒有這樣的市政"},{"start":6692.093,"end":6715.469,"text":"但是我們持續都還要繼續調查當中對啊你們要持續調查你們如果沒有調查那說不定行為就出來了你們持續的調查是不是才有辦法讓這個就是說好像有這樣子的情況那是不是那未來如果就是說我們面對到民眾的這個檢舉或反應的時候那我們也會反應給公平會好不好"},{"start":6716.429,"end":6725.701,"text":"還有我想請教一下就是我們公平會對於反托拉斯基金你在115年編列了2455萬數位經濟競爭政策研究及倡議計畫"},{"start":6733.211,"end":6758.362,"text":"我想要請問就是我們的大數據壟斷就是像我們說的現在數位時代你的企業聯合壟斷的行為或者是跟追價式的APP或這樣子的一個就是說演算法的方式還有我們AI模型排他性的授權等新興的議題你是否已經有明確的執法白皮書或者是準則"},{"start":6759.607,"end":6783.896,"text":"我想我們基本上有一個初步的一個架構啦當然對這個數據壟斷這個問題主要的是你執法機關本身的數據執法能力也要強化所以我們不然在軟硬體的部分我們都有編列預算就是希望將來能夠更強化本會在數位執法就是業者用數位的方式來是違反競爭法我們本身也要有能力可以監測出來你可以上次是說要用委外的方式是不是"},{"start":6783.996,"end":6793.89,"text":"文化就是跟學者專家研究計畫當然本身我們自己本身也有會內同學有些訓練跟再教育的課程希望他能夠那你覺得我們下面有落後歐美的進度嗎"},{"start":6795.163,"end":6820.937,"text":"因為在歐美有些國家它基本上它的機關內部是有一個叫做數位的部門裡面全部都是數據分析專家對所以當然如果從這個角度來看的話我們當初有提到就是說我們國內的人才培育是不是目前有不足的情況當然人才培育要花一點時間就我們機關來講我們本身受制於這個圓額的管控我們也不可能說去增加這樣部門"},{"start":6821.497,"end":6838.316,"text":"所以我們唯一能夠做的就是強化我們本身內部的一些數位的一個那還是你認為這應該是速發部應該負責有些比較技術面當然是速發部他比較有能力來處理那速發部現在目前到底負責什麼樣的部門這個可能我比較不方便跟他回答不過我們會跟速發部有一些"},{"start":6839.797,"end":6855.714,"text":"我們跟數碼部之間是有密切的合作啦有些技術性的問題我們會跟數碼部這邊來溝通請他們提供專業意見給我們參考還有我想要請教一下就是你反托拉斯的基金預算當中你減列了95萬的檢舉聯合違法聯合行為的獎金"},{"start":6860.499,"end":6885.645,"text":"我想要請問一下因為各國他都在就是說增加這個檢舉的就是激勵這樣子的機制然後來破獲秘密的卡特爾的這樣子的一個行為那我想說你為什麼要在這時候檢舉我想這主要原因其實有一點兩難就是說我們當初會把檢舉獎金放寬是因為希望民眾能多多捲起可是從實施以來我們發現開始有出現我們所謂職業檢舉人"},{"start":6887.225,"end":6898.385,"text":"那他的檢舉其實很簡單就是網路上看到一句話他就把它印下來就直接丟給你公平會他說這個是聯合行為那我們後續請他再提供更具體的事證他就不提供"},{"start":6899.249,"end":6923.942,"text":"那但是它也符合形式上也符合說我已經有訊息給你所以我們才會修改我們的辦法所以將來你透過一些公開一般人可以取得資訊的廣告所拿到的資料這個我們不會發給獎金不會發獎金對我們不會發給那你們要發獎金的當然就是你提供給我們這些是有價值的就是一般人是找不到的內部的訊息的這個部分當然對我們辦案就有很高的價值我們就會給獎金原則上是這樣子好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":6926.481,"end":6935.844,"text":"好謝謝謝一鳳委員待會陳昌明委員諮詢完畢後休息8分鐘接下來我們有請李玉玲委員諮詢謝謝主席請陳主委陳主委謝謝"},{"start":6956.124,"end":6977.992,"text":"各位在這2024年的時候Uber打算要用9.5億的美元併購了這個福盆檔後來呢我們公平會特別就以限制競爭的不利益大於整體經濟的利益否決了這兩家的這個併購但是這個現在東南亞的外送平台這個龍頭啊這個"},{"start":6979.833,"end":6985.855,"text":"Global也宣布要以6億的美金來併購Fupenda那雖然說他沒有在我們臺灣來落地但是你看起來他好像不會有這個限制競爭的情形可是這個Global他背後最大的這個股東就是Uber他佔的這個持股有13%所以如果說合併成功的話會不會就是Uber跟這個Global他們可能"},{"start":7005.902,"end":7030.158,"text":"就是這兩家公司啊他們最後會交叉持股跟相互的影響公司的決策最後會變成變相壟斷了台灣整個外送市場到時候他們聯合的行為你會防不勝防對不對委員關切這個問題我們在這個案子的審查過程當中我們會去注意而且會去要求業者配合我們調查那事實上我們現在已經有要求他提供一些這方面的資料給我們參考所以我們會去觀察他的實質影響力啦"},{"start":7033.74,"end":7062.737,"text":"他實質影響力 除了說交叉持股這樣的一個現象以外基本上我們還需要更多的事證來證明他的確有透過這個實質的影響力來遂行所謂的限制競爭的行為 因為這兩家公司最後的決策都是在他們手上 是所以影響力跟控制力你們要注意他們相關的事業影響力的地方 我們會注意他相關的影響力但是因為事業的跨公司的持股這並不是法律禁止的所以我們要以這個理由來質疑他的結合 你必須要有"},{"start":7063.097,"end":7075.251,"text":"因為兩家公司都等於他自己的公司這決策的話就會影響整個控制被控制控制力因為控制力有但是是不是控制力就會有影響力啊控制力就會拿來影響對控制力跟影響力所以你們要掌握這個關鍵的這個資料好不好"},{"start":7082.759,"end":7085.402,"text":"那因為這個國內部他在3月27號就已經向公平會提出了合併的這個申請那如果說他們沒有任何的缺失的話或者是"},{"start":7094.605,"end":7103.189,"text":"有沒有需要補件我目前是要要求他補件目前在補件那你們說還沒進入實質的審查還沒因為這個你們有那個延誤審查的這個檢科的紀錄之前 案子受罷之前吳博士你們就是有這種情形那現在我們認為說你們先進入實質審查如果有需要的話你們再叫他補件就好了"},{"start":7116.374,"end":7140.402,"text":"不然你就一直延宕下去像之前的話你延宕了6個月之久啊因為法律規定不能這樣子就是說你一定要是正式補件完成我們才可以算這個審查權可是你在公平法第11條裡面就特別有講到啦那如果說他們需要補件的時候再可以補件就好因為這個公平法教育裡面這個這11條裡面有講說你最長是90天的時間嘛是 是那時間的起算是以補件完成來算"},{"start":7140.822,"end":7157.595,"text":"所以那你就你都不見識審查的話就一直延宕到審查還算90天我們不會一直延宕因為這個大家都非常關心啦是是是所以我希望你們會盡快審查我們會盡快我們會盡快8月底會不會完成現在4月這個我沒辦法給一個確確的答案因為這個案子要經過委員會討論"},{"start":7159.176,"end":7184.881,"text":"所以補件完成可是你們期限就是90天啊沒有90天是從補件完成算所以在補件的時間我們是沒有期限的限制主委因為這整個這個外送平台的影響不只是這整個這個外送還有關係到勞動力是是這勞動力的影響還有這產業的發展跟我們食品的物流還有所有收費的定價等等這些都會影響所以大家都非常的關心尤其是我們的民眾消費者"},{"start":7186.161,"end":7214.561,"text":"還有外送平台的這個外送員他們都關心著所以未來你如果說這些事情的話你一定要有橫向的溝通各部會包括勞動部都是啊之前勞動部隊跳出來反對表示你沒有溝通好嘛所以你這是一定要跨部會溝通跟專家學者尤其是外送人員這點好不好我們會跟專家還有各部會之間相關的議題都要去來多做溝通盡快審查因為社會大眾大家都很關心那接下來就是說我們這個加盟電腦"},{"start":7216.902,"end":7230.965,"text":"這個連鎖加盟跟這個加盟商他們之間的訂定合約的時候有些資訊重要資訊沒有披露出來的話很多加盟商加盟之後的話反而是做一天虧一天這種情形都有來跟你們這個公平會來求助希望你們做這個審查跟給他們一個裁判但是我們公平會卻是說在這個條款裡面沒有違反的這個25條的這個公平交易法尤其是個案"},{"start":7245.327,"end":7263.181,"text":"因為受傷害被影響的人不多所以算是個案並沒有影響交易的這個次序是不是這樣子因為我們25條有足以影響交易秩序所以它是一個效果的要件所以如果單純只是一家你不能說有個案啦這整個就會影響啊"},{"start":7263.982,"end":7279.608,"text":"沒有如果說他檢舉的人你檢舉的家數很多這當然就會足以影響教育秩序嘛但是我們在實務上不處理的案子很多都是只有一家兩家所以要很多家才會影響教育秩序嗎也不是說很多家啦我們會綜合整個案子的嚴重程度來判斷"},{"start":7280.168,"end":7294.418,"text":"但是就是如果單純只是契約上的糾紛而且家屬只有一兩家原則上我們會把它定位是屬於民事糾紛不是 主委你要注意到的就是說你不能看契約加盟商他們簽約還有品牌他們無故的揭露一些加盟店的一些資訊"},{"start":7295.519,"end":7319.206,"text":"這他們沒有揭露出來的話 像成本啊 或者是說他們上市或是免料繳的這些錢利金等等 這些都算重要資訊他如果在合約裡面沒有揭露的話 就影響加盟商因為他們剛剛第一次去加盟的話 他們都沒有經驗的所以就需要你們公平會站出來跟他們協助幫忙所以不能因為一個個案 不能有很多家受傷害你們才站出來 可以的"},{"start":7320.046,"end":7348.107,"text":"就是說對於這個有品牌加盟的這些加盟商他們之間的資訊如果說不對等的情況之下你必須要出來更積極的有點作為好不好因為一樣還是受制於25條的要件不過我跟委員報告就是說我們在個案的審查裡面雖然加速是一個觀點是一個要件但是我們還會是實質判斷那個影響的部分所以只是因為過去我們加速大部分很多我們不處理的都是只有一家兩家那事實上影響的金額或是整個市場影響不大"},{"start":7348.968,"end":7367.853,"text":"那25條要求我們要影響多少家你們才會處理啊要影響多大的金人才會處理其實要從個案來判斷啦要從個案來判斷那我這邊大概理解大概是這樣子但是這不是個絕對的數字就是說我們從我們過去處理過的不是絕對的數字有人受傷害公平委員就要站出來好不好所以我們會按實質個案來判斷謝謝委員好 謝謝李育穎委員接下來我們有請陳超明委員質詢"},{"start":7385.348,"end":7393.573,"text":"市長請坐首先請我們公平委員會我們的陳主委請公平委員陳主委"},{"start":7397.794,"end":7416.683,"text":"陳主委今天請教的題目可能看起來比較新鮮我今天要請教我們陳主委就是以市場監理的角度防範台灣臨場試驗中心聯盟的一個限制跟競爭的疑慮"},{"start":7417.95,"end":7443.383,"text":"那這個生技產業這是一個新的開始尤其生技產業也是我們賴總統特別重視台灣一個健康的產業那目前台灣的生技產業也是一個蓬勃的發展它不亞於一個半導體的產業等它成形的時候因為它是關係著我們生命跟健康所以非常重視一塊"},{"start":7444.69,"end":7468.478,"text":"但是這個臺灣臨床實驗中心的聯盟它是藥品或醫療器材在臨床實驗階段雖然還沒有具體的商品產出但是我相信你也曉得臨床實驗是本身是藥品取得上市許可的最重要條件"},{"start":7469.258,"end":7496.911,"text":"它具有高度市場進入的門檻效果所以目前市場上也可以說是高度靈感的一個競爭要素會對後續的藥品市場競爭造成實質的影響我特別提出來我不曉得你對於藥品要進入人體試驗我們常常講美國的大公司要實驗要花了很多錢"},{"start":7498.713,"end":7510.89,"text":"這一點台灣是開始準備要進入世界杯的時候一個最重要的基本工作所以你對於藥品的那個臨產試驗你有沒有深入一個體認跟認識"},{"start":7513.054,"end":7533.964,"text":"我想剛剛委員提到的部分剛剛他一開始就談到監管因為公平會比較不是一個監管的機關這個因為涉及到產業的福祉產業政策但是對於這個福祉產業也要有兩下像我們台灣就很奇怪我們抽的那個加持院就只有美國日本進來台灣那麼進步又不給台灣人做"},{"start":7534.964,"end":7553.433,"text":"所以我現在不是說我監管你的立場他現在只有單獨一家對我們現在的觀點從公平會的角度來看就是說現在假設這兩家那為什麼呢你們全公平會的委員啊貴姓夫你是在115年3月15日投資中特別點數"},{"start":7554.878,"end":7573.471,"text":"他說 去年114年12月8日 衛福部大力支持下集結全台32家頂尖醫療及研究機構的台灣臨床試驗中心的聯名"},{"start":7574.292,"end":7593.296,"text":"叫做TACTC正式的成立它的目標是在整合制度流程將台灣打造為亞太臨床試驗的一個輸流聯名致力於統一IRP就是人體試驗委員會的文件與審查"},{"start":7597.037,"end":7611.571,"text":"合約的翻本人才庫的建置及受試者的一個招募平台這幾個都非常重要如果你有再申請要進去的這是一個必備的流程那我為什麼會提這個問題"},{"start":7613.913,"end":7629.21,"text":"32家頂尖醫療機構,過從臺灣臨產事業的中心人們,那只有一家。因為32家我很懷疑,如果你在生技產業裡面有琢磨,你就發覺這裡面的學問很多。"},{"start":7632.694,"end":7660.948,"text":"你要就是國家成立一個獨立的機構來檢驗這個流程他現在找了32家我會說這跟他獨一無二的生意大家要乖乖的拜託他所以你們要特別注意不是你們監管沒有問題這個叫做壟斷再來你們那個公平委員他說雖然有至於降低聯傳委託試驗的前置成本確實"},{"start":7662.833,"end":7677.692,"text":"但是從市場經理以公平交易法的角度不然我不會提出來你們以前委員談的我說這篇文章很有意思把它拿起來看他說當前台32家頂尖醫療機構"},{"start":7679.534,"end":7698.566,"text":"在人民內他的統一交易條件他交換敏感的世紀資訊他排除成年的參與或禁止存取資料時這是我已經觸及公平交易法的聯合行為或者限制的競爭"},{"start":7702.086,"end":7715.396,"text":"因為如果你有做過藥品或是怎樣要去臨床試驗台灣現在很多都在推展這樣那只有這一家能做而且32家頂級的醫療機構我沒有跟這32家好好的聯合一下"},{"start":7721.601,"end":7736.374,"text":"我真的會我們真的小的生技公司非常困難你告訴我到底是你們管的嗎你們有資格人管嗎他就提出來了因為這是106年的案子那個我強求了解應該是這是國家"},{"start":7737.274,"end":7757.811,"text":"衛福部他本身有參與這樣的一個計畫當中那這個可能是基於機關的產業政策來做的那公平會角度我們當然不是說這樣的東西全部都沒有問題而只是說通常我們在機關形成這個產業政策過程當中我們會做某一種程度的我們所謂的競爭倡議就是說他們這樣的一個計畫本身有沒有哪一點可能會有競爭上的疑慮"},{"start":7758.792,"end":7775.31,"text":"我是不曉得公平會過去是不是有做這一塊但是就對於像類似國家出面來主導的這樣的一個大型的產業政治的發展我們是可以扮演一定的市場角色我是這樣啊有做過區議員做過聲援都了解這裡面的奧妙在哪講是這麼講"},{"start":7783.952,"end":7800.507,"text":"國家成立獨立機構大家還相信他32家這裡面那種交錯複雜的關係實在會讓你眼花瞭然不曉得從哪裡走走說一個要要到成行很苦那我這邊特別是提醒"},{"start":7801.548,"end":7816.307,"text":"我們的公平交易委員會特別注意一個問題不要變成大企業那幾個企業在掌控這個市場現在的生技產業也很多中小企業它有獨特的機制特別的研發"},{"start":7817.628,"end":7845.733,"text":"不是虧聯名你以後進去就非常的困難所以這個政策我倒是很懷疑存在某種的目的跟用意到底在哪裡要嘛你國家就成立像美國雖然FDA的一個機構全部來審怎麼跟32家在中間在一起變成獨一無二連場試驗都要在裡面你現在跟我說國家政策很多都是國家政策成立"},{"start":7846.773,"end":7875.629,"text":"這些是藥品到最後是變成商品我是希望你提早我們會注意當然我們注意的點是在這個政策這個聯盟形成以後它後續的一些行為有沒有違反你好好去跟衛福部溝通這樣會引起大家其他的聯想好不好謝謝委員提醒我們會持續我們會注意這個問題AI生存式的廣告現在很厲害你們要趕得上追得上我現在那個影片做得太好"},{"start":7877.15,"end":7880.455,"text":"我們會注意 我們持續要關注這個問題有 我們持續要注意這個問題謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝陳昌明委員 謝謝那我們現在休息8分鐘"},{"start":8216.199,"end":8216.24,"text":"早安"},{"start":8438.165,"end":8438.185,"text":"嗯"},{"start":8494.426,"end":8520.956,"text":"繼續開會那我們接下來請邱志偉委員質詢謝謝主席 首先請這個經濟部來政策請經濟部來政策 園區管理局曾副局長園區管理局 地調地質調查徐主任地方中心徐主任這個委員好 這個市長"},{"start":8523.16,"end":8550.16,"text":"先請教這個海淡廠 之前我也曾去海淡廠 那時候你在水利署署長那以前是台中臨時機組 我們遷到這個興達電廠裡面那一年大概有一天大概十萬噸那我們希望蓋一個永久性的海淡廠為什麼我會這樣去設想你十年五年之後 整個從沙文到這個南子產業園區都是半導體製造中心"},{"start":8551.531,"end":8579.009,"text":"水 電 絕對不能缺所以現有的這個水的容量 水的供應量即便我們 我蓋了兩個再生水廠那時候我們一起努力 鋼橋 對不對還有楠梓再生水廠 是我爭取的 還有這個兩座再生水廠好 還是不夠 你如果再往北未來還有一個陸珠財源區要規劃所以未來的海淡廠有沒有 現在有沒有新的進度"},{"start":8580.267,"end":8601.217,"text":"阿蘇委員所說的我們針對區域發展特別是南邦大溪谷的這個部分我們針對於水的這個組織有沒有新的計畫就有沒有新的地點因為可見當時你們規劃的地點好像地方上有意見我希望你們跟地方溝通在原址如果可以的話在原址再蓋"},{"start":8603.009,"end":8626.294,"text":"地方上如果可以支持 我覺得最好就在原子來蓋 你知道原子那個地方在哪裡嗎新南海電廠裡面嘛 旁邊 靠近永安嘛那如果我們地方民眾還是覺得不妥你們另外再找地點 好不好這個部分我覺得還是要繼續推動啦一天十萬噸對未來產業的需求非常重要因為白富產業園區現在在遭傷"},{"start":8629.557,"end":8633.072,"text":"那個玻璃產業園區也是我爭取的對不對你很清楚嘛"},{"start":8635.47,"end":8661.204,"text":"這個也是我選的後來市政府認為說這個未來整個S行帶在半導體的不管是先進製程或者是豐碩也好都可以集中在男子跟白虎對不對所以由市政府去做統籌規劃那我們也樂觀其成百事經濟部 產化局要獨找了後來給市政府目前的最新進度你有沒有掌握"},{"start":8661.944,"end":8689.407,"text":"現在好像是地方政府已經審過基礎設施包括公設是誰來蓋基礎設施公設比方說有一些公共建築物一些基礎設施是誰來蓋是政府來蓋還是政府來蓋政府你直接講好了政府白埔現在目前還是由地方政府來做主導"},{"start":8690.074,"end":8715.462,"text":"包括公共設施包括這些聯外道路都是由地方政府嗎因為目前看起來開發單位不能看起來目前就是地方政府在做整個開發主體我是擔心財源不夠你這公共設施你要把它完善的話聯外交通要把它這個很通暢這個沒有中央協助不行我覺得是不是這個市長你跟原區這個楊局長"},{"start":8717.645,"end":8734.69,"text":"再找市政府談一下看需要中央哪些協助我們再請園區管理局跟市政府對接一下包括推進的進度大家希望中央地方合作的地方你們對接情況再讓我知道一下因為陸族財源園區那也是我爭取的對不對有沒有最新的進度那政府"},{"start":8736.379,"end":8764.262,"text":"目前來講比較陸主園區目前確實比較沒有持續推動了那個地點我們已經決定了那地點我們開了好幾次會決定了未來在北高雄還是要有個財源園區北高雄財源園區現在已經成型了招商也都滿了那也是我費盡九牛二虎之力那陸主財源園區我們繼續推動好那個地熱地熱部分這個"},{"start":8766.553,"end":8787.405,"text":"我是覺得目前這個對地熱 我覺得台灣的條件非常好但是從這個未來 從1.2GW到200MW是差了6倍 因為是國化會公布的 一個是行政院公布的那下調到這個200MW 我是覺得一定有出現環境上的問題"},{"start":8788.425,"end":8814.84,"text":"包括行政流程 中央地方完全不一開發區也受到很嚴重的限制產業供應鏈的能量不足我很具體的要求經濟部是不是能夠建立地熱一戰式的審查機制把中央跟地方流程統一另外你要檢討國家公務員開發限制的問題你參考其他國家經驗 冰島 日本 紐西蘭"},{"start":8815.64,"end":8843.3,"text":"然後政府的整合需求要引進國際專警的能量就跟離岸風電一樣然後建立在地溝通的指引你要有個指引才能做在地溝通我是覺得針對我這四個建議方案我希望說三個月之內請經濟部提出一個規劃報告沒有問題上個月好那最後一個問題各位先請回請教我們公民會陳副主委"},{"start":8847.511,"end":8867.606,"text":"這個主席我很難得時間有超過這個問題比較重要稍微超過一下也不會超過太離譜我只質詢不能無邊際的質詢這個單一通路單一售票通路那個主委有沒有買過演唱會的票有買得到嗎"},{"start":8869.329,"end":8895.749,"text":"我不是透過這個網路買的那你透過什麼特別管道因為像其實那個票的通路有不同嘛像古典音樂大部分透過寬宏等等其他的網站所以我沒有用過這個網站我是說這個流行音樂的Hip Hop類似這種我也沒去聽過我跟你一樣我都聽古典音樂所以票比較好買那你其他這個秒殺所謂秒殺就是說瞬間4萬票4萬張票就賣完了"},{"start":8897.728,"end":8924.574,"text":"那是有特定的售票平台對不對那它會有一定的遊戲規則比如說最近接到很多民眾陳情你這個特定平台因為它一直刷刷之後它認為它是一個機器在運作所以它就永久封鎖這民眾帳號它只是買票買得比較急動作比較快就被封鎖了封鎖其他兩家也不能用"},{"start":8926.684,"end":8933.262,"text":"等於說他沒有永遠被排除在這個買票的通路當中啊他只能被迫去買黃頭票"},{"start":8935.144,"end":8958.183,"text":"這種情況越來越多是 我跟各位報告一下就是說從競爭的觀點來看可能我們對這個議題關切的點是在於爭取售票代理權那個競爭而不是說拿到代理權以後事後對消費者那塊競爭因為所有的表演都有它的獨特性所以一旦你搶到代理權以後當然對消費者來講沒有什麼替代的選擇所以你代理權要怎麼去做一個優化呢"},{"start":8959.043,"end":8967.398,"text":"我們還是把重點擺在那個競爭爭取那個售票代理權的部分那如果從這個角度來看我們以現在的目前競爭售票代理權是有問題的"},{"start":8970.017,"end":8992.111,"text":"我目前觀察到的是說就如我們剛剛跟委員報告還有一些其他的售票管道當然到底他們實質的情況事實上我們持續都有在做產業的瞭解那目前看起來當然委員關心的產業再去瞭解一下瞭解三家其中只有一家有在賣比方說這個A演唱會只能A這個售票平台賣其他兩個B跟C不能賣"},{"start":8994.028,"end":9015.669,"text":"對 但是我們關切的點是說當他決定要由某一個平台來賣的過程當中是不是其他兩家有在搶你能不能一個月把你們的撤進方案 改進方案怎麼樣讓這個遊戲規則能夠更公平我可以給委員一個目前我們對這個產業的初步瞭解給一個書面給我這個已經接到很多的陳情了在A平台他是刷了幾次就被封鎖"},{"start":9016.789,"end":9038.264,"text":"他們說B跟C他也不能去不能去購買所以三個平台全部被封鎖像這種這種我們這個消費者很多很多所以我可以跟針對這個目前市場的現況還有這個相關的議題給委員一個書面報告好 謝謝謝謝主席容許我發言這個超時一點點謝謝應該的謝謝邱昭輝好 接下來我們請這個柯志恩委員質詢"},{"start":9051.138,"end":9051.54,"text":"謝謝莊委 我們請次長請經濟部賴次長"},{"start":9059.872,"end":9077.766,"text":"委員好次長好我想今天有非常多的委員根據土石採取法提出很多的修正特別是第36條我想大概過去的法規都放在這個地方但是因為美濃大峽谷的事件那個實在是挖的讓大家太觸目驚心了所以就有很多委員紛紛的就提高法則特別把這個所謂的刑法給他放進去"},{"start":9081.249,"end":9087.054,"text":"事實上這些很多的罰則全部都在這裡面的我們就一一來審視以我們這樣的修法來說的話有沒有辦法遏止這樣子的一個狀況那基本上你剛剛在質詢台上說兩個禮拜之後院版就會出來因為我剛剛看一下你們的報告這個方向跟委員的修法其實都大同小異沒錯吧"},{"start":9099.924,"end":9111.453,"text":"是 但是我們希望針對於蓄意而且是牟利的所謂的倒採行為好那我們就來看看一些蓄意好不好那我們就來看這個細則的一個條文當中那你看你只要構成條件是意圖盈利對不對意圖盈利的話你要除五年以下還有有些時候可以併科五千萬以下的罰金"},{"start":9121.4,"end":9141.406,"text":"那我認為盜採沙士這是完全不可以原諒的但是呢有些的條文上面我們是不是有商榷的一個空間舉例來說你並沒有去區分合法申報瑕疵跟惡意非法盜採的差別這兩個是有一個差別因為你剛剛所提到的意圖意圖在法律的用字上面是我們構成犯罪的一個核心條件但是呢它是屬於一個比較是屬於個人的心理的狀態"},{"start":9145.407,"end":9147.848,"text":"那如果法官在做審判的時候呢可能會透過自由新政的方法來認定意圖是否存在那你如果沒有做區分的話我必須要老實講有些時候可能他只是在申報數量的一個誤差所以我說他是合法但是有瑕疵"},{"start":9161.095,"end":9170.585,"text":"有些人是完全是蓄意就是要來拿這些你沒有把它區分清楚的話很多公務員會因為怕事又因為KPI的關係搞不好在這個地方他就會這樣子完全集中火力完全就是來給你重罰那這個部分裡面可能會造成一些錯殺會不會有這樣問題你們跟法務部在這個用詞上面有沒有做過一些的討論"},{"start":9183.971,"end":9204.811,"text":"這個在過去修法的過程裡面我們跟法務部做討論至於說針對於合法或是民眾自用的部分小量的採取我們原來在採取法的第三條裡面就有六個條我認為還是要有一個空間所以說你這個部分裡面法上上去的話在解釋上面一定要更明確這是我所擔心的謝謝委員指導"},{"start":9205.592,"end":9221.501,"text":"还有一个就是说你看虽然我刚讲了嘛每一个人都有这个法条但是呢你在执行上面你这个即使是罚到2500他的获利是3亿5亿的这个还是一样所以你一定要有一些配套那当然你也提到了这一定要看地方政府的一个执行的一个层面啊那"},{"start":9222.441,"end":9235.628,"text":"往往就是因為很多人都是拿人頭來啊 這個次長你也知道嘛 拿人頭嘛所以以至於他違規的時候 地方政府要代為整復的時候常常面臨 娶沒人 也沒人給我交的處罰金那你要怎麼辦 這個措施你要怎麼辦他沒有辦法繳出罰金啊 你擺在那邊怎麼辦"},{"start":9241.963,"end":9253.127,"text":"第一個我們透過包括刑法的部分的一個建立刑法是目前為止我認為是最有效但是我說你拿不到因為你要讓他恢復原狀嘛因為有時候債務組他沒錢你要怎麼辦所以說怎麼辦所以我們現在在修法的部分有包括所謂的得代理刑的這個部分"},{"start":9261.755,"end":9285.211,"text":"代旅行費用的預存是不是不是代旅行因為代旅行費用的預存的話就是代表說有申請人他先去繳說那很多人口報繳不起啊那事實上現在全國的所謂的合法的所謂土石採取場數量是非常少的但是我們現在發現的問題它不是在合法的採取的過程裡面來產生非法的這個行為"},{"start":9285.851,"end":9308.706,"text":"所以他蓄意針對他完全沒有申請的部分所以我才跟你說嘛你法擺在那個地方可是我們倒採以前只有在倒採的這個說實在還是非常多因為利益太大了所以我就說你一切的配套措施還有包括檢舉舉報的這個獎金的機制其實你都要思考法是一回事到最後都會通過因為每個人都有一致的方式但是執行的層面你一定要給他更多的一個"},{"start":9309.747,"end":9335.947,"text":"一個配套好不好這是非常重要的最後給我一分鐘的時間我對於翡翠水庫來說的話我還是要請問一下翡翠水庫今天是鬧得沸沸揚揚但是呢是監察院糾舉當初的水利署不好意思次長你就是當初的水利署署長你認為監察院這樣糾舉有沒有錯誤因為他認為是完全是浪費的水的一個資源而且對民生用水來說有太多珍貴的水源就是因為這樣子將流到大海去"},{"start":9337.728,"end":9366.667,"text":"所以監察院來糾舉水利署次長你那時候是水利署的署長你面對現在這樣的爭議的話你真的要站起來因為我現在認為是翡翠水庫管理局曾經屬下的他們背著非常大的一個黑鍋我覺得這整個問題都是我們能源的問題以至於讓我們用很多珍貴的水民間用的水 民生用的水必須要來承擔這樣的一個角色所以監察院才出這樣糾舉我不曉得大家在吵什麼這個冤有圖債有主啊 糾察院做這部分你同不同意 次長"},{"start":9367.607,"end":9385.597,"text":"監察院除了水利署之外還有台北翡翠水庫管理局但是水利署是一個很重要的一個角色嘛那我個人覺得嘛那時候監察院所講的其實是很清楚他就告訴你說民生占比只有30然後還有非常多的東西是流失"},{"start":9386.758,"end":9410.593,"text":"所以我個人認為在今天這麼多爭議什麼得到便宜還賣瓜等等之類當中我覺得當初應該針對監察院所提出的糾正來做出一些的澄清到底翡翠水庫有沒有發生這樣的狀況發生這樣的狀況之下面我們該怎麼樣來處理次長我覺得你很認真但是在面對這件事情的時候你應該站出來針對你那時候的所整個的脈絡跟過程也應該站出來講一些的話吧"},{"start":9412.322,"end":9425.417,"text":"針對於稀缺的水資源我們希望說有比較好的調控而且現在的預報的技術水平都是相當的高所以透過預報還有包括管理的層面可以減少水資源的浪費"},{"start":9427.899,"end":9446.625,"text":"對 我想只是說大家爭論的時候 我都覺得都已經爭論到其他太多政治上面議題 應該回歸到我們真正的能源 翡翠水庫的水是不是適合用來做於發電然後民間用水到底如何能夠在增其水資源之下 不要讓它過度浪費 這才是我們討論這件事情最大的重點"},{"start":9447.045,"end":9462.527,"text":"沒錯吧基本上多目標的水庫啊特別是像翡翠水庫啊或是像曾文水庫他都是不是以發電為主要目的他是一個附屬的我們希望他在發揮主要的蓄水供水的功能了之後"},{"start":9463.248,"end":9490.124,"text":"然後在附屬的這個部分和一些的發電的效益那這個過程裡面我們不希望水資源有所浪費所以我們說他有提出一些的改善你如果覺得監察院這個改善可以你其實就應該好好來做我只是認為現在目前為止討論到這些問題的時候花太多時間都是在一些細微的政治操作而真正對於監察院所糾舉那一些我們應該做的改善甚至更高的一個能源問題我覺得那個才是我們大家應該共同focus的重點對不對"},{"start":9491.975,"end":9512.043,"text":"謝謝 對於人所需要的 不管是水跟電的部分經濟部一直很重視這個問題 我們持續的來精進那兩個禮拜之後就看你們提出的願板 好嗎我剛剛說的吐息 對 好 謝謝好 謝謝各自委員 謝謝接下來我們請張家俊委員質詢"},{"start":9524.657,"end":9530.084,"text":"感謝主席那我是不是請公平會的代理主委請公平會陳主委"},{"start":9535.054,"end":9561.892,"text":"那去年本席就提醒過公平會AI生成的不實廣告將會是市場誠信的一個災難那我們現在看新聞這已經不是未來式了而是現在進行式那最近在網路社群上連很多中醫、民醫、權威都被AI盜用影像去賣假藥那這些影片的聲音、表情、嘴形真的到一般民眾是難以辨識的"},{"start":9563.393,"end":9580.112,"text":"一模一樣那這些AI廣告喔能然在臉書LINE啊上面橫行我想請問一下針對這樣子利用AI偽造公眾人物專家醫生來誤導消費者的行為公平會有什麼樣子的作為呢"},{"start":9580.672,"end":9598.187,"text":"委員所提這個案子因為這涉及到醫療衛生所以這個衛福部本身對這個不實廣告是有一些規範那對從我們的部分來講不實廣告的部分其實我們已經有因為我們持續都有在做網路上的監控那最近今年我們已經把AI的監控納入計畫當中所以"},{"start":9598.747,"end":9618.562,"text":"業者已經來幫我們做一些AI的初步掃描所以已經開始執行了啊對對對 那目前其實我們也有發現有有涉嫌有違法的個案是 那所以這個可能要更積極一點可能也要主動跟速發部或者是平台啊Meta Line來溝通建立一個快速下架的機制喔"},{"start":9619.122,"end":9629.573,"text":"而且這個是本席去年就要求了因為面對這個盜用臉孔、偽造聲音的廣告其實我覺得公平會是應該要主動繼續積極一點來監督是 我們會持續廣正方面來精進"},{"start":9634.398,"end":9661.39,"text":"那接下來我想要跟主委討論的是現在社群平台上非常夯的也非常泛濫的就是瘦瘦真跟各類的減肥藥品的這個行銷那瘦瘦真在我們台灣是屬處方用藥那依釋法明文規定禁止對大眾廣告而且網路販售代購都是違法的但實際上在"},{"start":9663.172,"end":9671.82,"text":"在LINE社群 甚至在TREI上都有販售跟開團的廣告 請問主委公平會對於這些廣告有沒有掌握"},{"start":9672.725,"end":9694.944,"text":"這些廣告因為涉及到醫藥所以我們跟衛福部是有分工這類型廣告我的意思是說不實廣告你要不要管不實廣告我們管啊是不是 這個也不對啊對 但是就是因為廣告有時候會涉及到專業所以你也要跟衛福部要橫向溝通啊你不能每一次我問公平會什麼事都是別人的事跟你公平會都沒有關係因為有些廣告涉及到專業的判斷我就問你嘛公平會會對這些廣告開罰嗎"},{"start":9699.468,"end":9703.189,"text":"你要怎麼專業判斷他只要放上授授真三個字他就已經是不實廣告了因為他本身就不應該向大眾廣告也不能夠網路販售嘛你連這個都沒辦法嗎不是因為這涉及到我們機關之間已經有分工的協議啦所以這個就只有衛福部能罰你不能罰你不能罰你有這個明文規定我們之間有分工的協議怎麼分工"},{"start":9724.853,"end":9740.098,"text":"就是基本上涉及到醫療衛生的這些然後所以他還要再設一個設一個單位去檢舉是嗎因為衛福本身醫法就可以採取不實廣告跟醫療衛生有關的不實廣告所以你這個都不歸你管對 他們如果覺得說這個不是跟他們有關的他們會把案子再送回來"},{"start":9740.478,"end":9754.188,"text":"我就問瘦瘦身的廣告它裡面就宣稱免醫生處方私訊有現貨而且保證不復胖不用運動也能瘦主委本席很清楚這一劑針類在醫學上有其療效但這種"},{"start":9758.131,"end":9768.72,"text":"誘導民眾跳過遺囑宣稱不用運動也能受淡化藥物副作用風險的行銷方式有沒有違反公平交易法第21條虛偽不實或引人錯誤的疑慮"},{"start":9773.496,"end":9791.928,"text":"一樣就跟委員報告這個是涉及到醫療是不是有我就問你嘛有沒有如果他所做的事情根據醫療專業判斷是做不到的當然這個可能都不是廣告只是說那個拆除的情況不會在你這邊所以你公平會這個也不能做那個也不能做我就不曉得說公平會存在的"},{"start":9795.853,"end":9815.788,"text":"價值是什麼我就講啊即便藥物本身有效但是不用處方就能買保證不負胖這難道不是典型的不實廣告嗎它是不實但是你採取的機關不用是公平會啊那否則你公平會只能做什麼你告訴我我告訴你我每一次問你就好像這個AI"},{"start":9817.301,"end":9832.472,"text":"你說這可能要速發布啦什麼什麼每一次我每一次問你你都告訴我說那可能要什麼什麼其他部會來做那你存在的意義是什麼我們處理很多不是廣告不是廣告是我們大眾的業務那你今年處理多少你說"},{"start":9835.066,"end":9858.599,"text":"你也不知道嘛 你還要問人一百多件就是一百多件 你覺得這個比例符合嗎你知道現在幾月嗎現在已經四月底了一天都不止一百多件了就是跟委員報告一天都不止一百多件了我們其實不是只有跟委務部我們跟很多其他主管機關都有不時廣告的分工啦是 我知道 所以我的意思是你們根本沒有什麼"},{"start":9859.861,"end":9882.922,"text":"功能嘛 你們的功能到底是什麼所以我建議你們要盡速的主動跟Meta跟Line這些平台上溝通建立一套違規廣告的快速通報下架機制我們不可以讓這些社群平台淪為違法廣告的溫床公平會到底能不能主動出擊呢"},{"start":9884.18,"end":9895.085,"text":"剛剛委員所談到這些措施啊其實像樹化部他們都有一些基礎措施我覺得你公平會要努力證明你有存在的價值你知道嗎我每一次問你喔說實在我已經有點懶得來問公平會要不是我們立法院有這個評鑑的那個壓力我真的懶得問你了因為你問你什麼都沒有用"},{"start":9905.609,"end":9917.643,"text":"你一下子是經濟部的問題一下子是衛福部的問題然後一下子又是速發部的問題你存在的價值是什麼我現在就給你這個問題你回去好好想一想 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":9927.386,"end":9954.517,"text":"好謝謝張家俊委員羅明才羅明才羅明才委員接下來我們請蔡易瑜委員質詢好謝謝主席那我們是不是有請龔平慧主委 請龔平慧陳主委"},{"start":9961.038,"end":9978.164,"text":"好 嗯 諸位齁 這個UberEats齁 要收購這個Hupenda齁 那當時是失敗那現在換成Glob這一家公司要來收購那Glob這一家公司勒 啊 經過"},{"start":9982.251,"end":9996.281,"text":"經過一些市場的一個調查基本上他雖然是在東南亞但是他背後的集團事實上也是他是在新加坡創立的那他的2016年的時候他的母公司就被收購"},{"start":9997.202,"end":10025.721,"text":"那到後來的話事實上會發現他的內部結構事實上也跟包括微軟就是說跟UberEat還是有高度的一個關係所以在股權結構上來看的話你包括有微軟有UberEat那所以Grab跟UberEat基本上可以算是一個蠻有相關的公司那他現在要來收購"},{"start":10027.822,"end":10056.873,"text":"收購普遍打後會不會未來也是造成我們整個外送市場還是由單一企業然後去壟斷或者是寡占的一個情況跟委員報告一下就是這個案子跟之前那個案子是不太一樣因為之前那個案子結合以後市佔率達九成那當然知道委員關切的是說這個案子裡面其實背後真正的控制公司可能跟Uber也有一定程度的關係那這種實質的控制力是我們在審查這個案子我們會去注意到的"},{"start":10057.113,"end":10086.288,"text":"就是我們對於這個彼此之間的合縱聯橫股權的結構持股會不會對結合後的事業的經營產生實質的影響力這個我們在結合審查的時候會去注意那事實上我們現在也在要求他補件啦就是相關的資料我們來判斷說就是委員關切的這個議題是啊 因為我們現在就是擔心嘛 對不對就是說看起來UberEats去收購FuPenta這件事失敗了結果他們現在轉了是要變得也不是說他們轉啦就是說另外就跑出一家叫Grub"},{"start":10087.088,"end":10113.038,"text":"那這個Club又它的大股東這個最大股東就是Uber Eats那又跟Uber Eats共同的股東就是這個就是它的微軟集團那從這樣看起來就是說他們蠻想要控制讓這個市場一致化那一致化之後對於外送者的權利基本上我覺得未必是最好的"},{"start":10114.412,"end":10135.099,"text":"這個是應該去注意的外送平台外送員保護的部分我想勞動部最近都有一些新的法規出來在保障外送員的權益我們這個案子的審查大概還是會在平台之間的競爭還有對整個外送市場的競爭影響程度我現在反而就是以後就沒有競爭了少了競爭對消費者除了對於他們的聘用的外送員"},{"start":10141.761,"end":10161.306,"text":"之外就是消費者的權利那消費者的權利很容易因為沒有競爭然後變得單一化然後就被犧牲所以我們關鍵的就是委員這邊所談到的這個13.07%這個所謂的最大股東的部分他到底有沒有可能在結合以後被濫用那這個我們需要有一些具體跟客觀的事證來做一些研判"},{"start":10162.006,"end":10184.247,"text":"因為未來會怎麼做往往是必須要有一些預測所以我們必須要從過去的證據還有它現在經營的策略我們做整體性的判斷跟評估有沒有這樣的可能性因為基本上法律並不禁止事業之間可以跨公司來持股所以如果我們要以不能夠單純以說跨公司持股這件事情就一定是有濫用的情況我們後續那個行為面的調查還是很重要的"},{"start":10184.887,"end":10211.485,"text":"不然我們會盡量積極地我可以理解你說的啦但是這樣看起來就是他們很想看起來是他們想把它單一化所以我了解委員的關係好沒關係下一個議題下一個議題這個深層式的AI這個涉及到廣告不死那尤其是我們現在在臉書可以看到好多的那一種廣告"},{"start":10212.535,"end":10240.914,"text":"好多的廣告現在大概臉書平台啦或是一些不只是臉書啦這些我們用的一個社群軟體他們投放的廣告大概都會去檢視你的大數據然後去播放說你可能會要哪些廣告但是咧我舉啦現在我蠻常看到一些手遊的廣告啦他的手遊的廣告他的大概都是用生成式AI去產生的結果他的廣告內容跟他的遊戲內容完全不一樣啊"},{"start":10242.399,"end":10271.434,"text":"差很多啦廣告的那個大概看起來都很好玩的感覺然後一把它下載後就發現又差很多那這只是手遊的部分喔那接下來可能還涉及到的食品或者是涉及到的一些像女性的話可能會投射一些化妝品保養品的廣告都用AI生成式的那這種生成式AI的廣告到底需不需要對外界負責任呢"},{"start":10272.114,"end":10299.534,"text":"我想這個問題是一個很好的問題我們有參考一些國外的做法國外有一些國家他要求揭露通常他的揭露是從一些監管面的角度來處理譬如說剛剛委員談到醫藥衛生甚至於像這個防炸等等可能相關主管機關會要求你要揭露AI但是大部分都集中在特定的產業而且大部分都不是競爭主管機關來做那我們來我們如果我們要考慮要不要強制AI揭露這裡面因為公平會一旦要求"},{"start":10300.154,"end":10328.653,"text":"它的影響面是全面性的大概所有業者大家遵守這個揭露所以這個影響層面會比較大所以我們會審慎去評估這樣的需要啦當然我們可能會跟跨部會來做一些協商主委就我目前我我去我辦公室整理啦像歐盟是以及直接用立法要求就是從今年起所有深層式AI就是要標記它是深層式AI那在中國的部分咧基本上也有要求要標示那"},{"start":10330.325,"end":10347.936,"text":"南韓現在針對這個身衛廣告也是準備要修法要做標示那我們目前還是比較設定在公部門必須要這樣做就民間的部分台灣都還沒有走到像我剛舉例的這些但是我覺得畢竟"},{"start":10349.178,"end":10365.667,"text":"AI產生的就是AI產生嘛你要求他標示這件事情並不會對於他想要做這個廣告的人產生不必要的困擾因為他就是AI產生的啊所以我們只要求他必須要講清楚你這一個廣告你是透過AI產生的"},{"start":10367.153,"end":10381.922,"text":"只是單純這樣的一個標誌,對人的困擾不多,但是對社會者可以擬憑很多不必要的誤會或者是一些過度看到美好的AI生成式的畫面產生的誤解"},{"start":10383.991,"end":10397.6,"text":"我覺得這件事情所以我想委員提醒我們會慎慎的考慮我們會去評估一下不過就跟委員報告一下剛剛委員提到那些國家就是我剛剛講的他基本上可能是基於某些特定產業的需求打造房屋所以他有一些非競爭主管機關產業主管機關來做一個揭示的要求"},{"start":10400.302,"end":10428.903,"text":"那公平會要不要做這樣一個揭露的要求就像剛剛跟委員報告了一旦我們要求了那應該是全面性市場所以我們必須要審慎的去評估當然過程當中我們會跟不同的機關之間我們會做一些跨機關的一個協商主委應該就是這樣啦我現在也想不到說全面性的話會有對社會產生怎樣的不必要因為我在想這件事你剛才講我在想所以說全面性要求說你這樣的一個影片它是AI產生的那我們就把它揭露"},{"start":10430.426,"end":10431.027,"text":"這個會影響到怎樣嗎可能一些動畫片啦電影"},{"start":10438.379,"end":10461.807,"text":"要表示這個比較奇怪而已業者在設計廣告的時候有他的一些創意或是業務需求的考慮這一點我們要進一步了解才能知道就是說我要求他揭露以後對於他這個廣告的效果的影響因為乍聽之下的確像委員所講的應該不會有太大的法尊的成本啦是啦是啦 但是只是說業者就是想像上這件事情對他們的廣告效果可能會打折好廣告效果打折這件事對"},{"start":10466.71,"end":10489.396,"text":"只是對企業有差,對消費者來說沒差,我消費者至少知道說,喔,這個是AI創作的。我們也是要鼓勵企業還是多用人為去做一些創意的展現啊,雖然AI很好,但是有一些人的一些巧思放進去,"},{"start":10490.632,"end":10507.987,"text":"未必會比AI所投入的還要來得還要來得差嘛鼓勵企業多用人為的力量你要用AI當然你省了成本但是你必須揭露我覺得這也不對謝謝委員提醒我會把這個議題帶回去審慎一點好主委好謝謝委員好謝謝蔡宇委員接下來我們請伍麗華委員質詢"},{"start":10527.196,"end":10529.125,"text":"謝謝主席有請經濟部賴次長請經濟部賴次長"},{"start":10538.267,"end":10562.44,"text":"市長好首先我站在這裡是因為我提出了土石採取法第三條的修正草案我想先謝謝今天的洪玉祥召委因為我在110年也就是上一屆我進入到立法院我就有提案那這個會期一開始我在113年我也有提案"},{"start":10563.41,"end":10579.838,"text":"那我修正的最核心的目的是為了要落實原基法第19條賦予原住民族在傳統文化既宜或者是自用非營利的前提之下我們依法可以採取土石免金許可的權利"},{"start":10580.959,"end":10596.418,"text":"那這樣的一個版本呢其實一直到今天能夠重見天日我很希望有機會順利的三讀通過所以我在這邊就是想要就教一下市長因為您之前也擔任過水利署的署長"},{"start":10597.279,"end":10612.914,"text":"所以我相信您對於這些河川的土石也好或者是山上的土石其實你應該是有很多的認識也有很多的情感那其實在我們的原基法第19條剛才我有提過了就是有特別保障"},{"start":10613.374,"end":10633.725,"text":"原住民基于非盈利传统文化既以自用这样的一个精神可以来依法从事这些有关的规定所以呢这几年在立法院不论是野保法矿业法等等的法因为原本原基法有规定说他要定定很多的执法可是呢"},{"start":10634.545,"end":10663.302,"text":"大部分都是很慢很慢這些年才慢慢的進入到母法裡面那同樣的今天在土石採取法裡面呢也有這樣的一個困擾為什麼呢因為我們也有看到其實我們有依這個規定有做一個土石採取法它有依據第二條第三條就是有一個採取土石免申辦土石採取許可辦法"},{"start":10664.523,"end":10689.178,"text":"可是對我們族人來講 這個是缺乏對傳統行為的直接豁免所以就會成為我們的一個文化保存的絆腳石我舉個例子來講 它因為沒有明定於母法就會產生第一個 就是它的法律位階會不足第二個就是它採取總量也不敷需求"},{"start":10689.878,"end":10699.645,"text":"那第三個呢就是法規有很多也都不一致那因為我們的土石採取法呢它比較落後就會變成像是礦業法那邊已經修了採礦可以採土石卻處處受限這樣的一個怪現象那我這邊我們看一下像按照現行的辦法的話這些很漂亮的石板屋呢其實它根本不是辦法裡面所講的像"},{"start":10717.839,"end":10742.71,"text":"每個人有10立方或者是用於機關學校公共設施總量30立方他根本沒有辦法蓋出我們要的這樣的一個石板屋所以目前我們在很多地方包括石板屋我們也都一直都在努力如何幫助我們的傳統建物石板屋可以取得建造"},{"start":10743.59,"end":10768.09,"text":"法雖然改了 可是建築師不願意簽證所以我們依然沒有辦法讓石板屋取得這樣的一個建造 實照那我覺得一個族群 如果他的一些傳統文化 他的律法被否定掉就是等同踐踏他的主權 就好比我明明可以叫塞代 那我為什麼一定要被迫信一個漢姓"},{"start":10769.631,"end":10789.428,"text":"那這個就是否定我自己文化上姓名的律法被迫來使用他族群訂定的一個律法所以我們很希望說今天昭緯排了這樣的一個法那我也針對土石採取法的第三條徵訂了第七款第八款那我特別高興的就是過去從110年基於族人的陳情那我們有"},{"start":10794.252,"end":10812.223,"text":"做這樣的一個草案那今天呢終於能夠排審那也有很多的原住民立委呢也在今天就是能夠一同的參與用修正動議的方式那我真的是很希望說在這個部分我們能夠支持那不曉得次長您的看法你就簡單的做一個態度的表示"},{"start":10814.764,"end":10829.076,"text":"是 非常同意委員的見解那也感謝委員在過去長期一段時間來關注因為法律的一個不完備造成在執行面上有很多的擔憂的問題那原來的辦法裡面雖然說有列舉了"},{"start":10831.638,"end":10851.997,"text":"但是這些還是有一個數量所需那這個數量所需讓使用者的時候在使用上面非常的小心謹慎甚至不願意去用所以今天委員所提到的第三條的修正案裡面包括第一項第七款第八款這個部分可以促進我們原住民地區原住民"},{"start":10853.598,"end":10867.824,"text":"在進行相關的修繕的時候會更好甚至不是不一定是原住民只要在原住民地區來修繕相關的這個費用的部分的話我們認為這合乎說就地使用的一個原則因為我們這一次"},{"start":10869.184,"end":10888.522,"text":"土石採取法提出來的修正我們看到很多的平地的地區因為蓄意磨砺盜爛採造成國土的危害這個我們必須要加以遏止但是對於土石的正當的使用甚至是符合原住民基本法的部分經濟部都非常的支持"},{"start":10890.307,"end":10913.244,"text":"那謝謝次長我真的是在這邊希望說我們這個法修法能夠順利的通過因為對我們原住民族而言這是我們祖靈的建築基石對於文化的延續非常的重要所以在這邊呢就是僅代表我們原住民族人跟次長說聲謝謝也跟今天的趙偉主席說聲謝謝好那我們一起努力"},{"start":10916.037,"end":10935.479,"text":"好 我們謝謝這一個吳立華委員 謝謝林倩琦 林倩琦 林倩琦委員葉元芝 葉元芝 葉元芝委員賴慧媛 賴慧媛 賴慧媛委員接下來我們請盧憲一委員質詢"},{"start":10942.978,"end":10946.279,"text":"謝謝主席 有請次長有請經濟部的次長委員好 次長好就剛才針對土石的採集 剛才委員也有說明當然我知道所有原住民 立委 大家都非常的關心這個議題我們是來自好山好水的地方常常看到水 用不到水 看到土 用不到土"},{"start":10969.568,"end":10982.514,"text":"那昨天我延續昨天的問題就是希望 因為昨天沒有得到確確的答案希望苗栗 南投 屏東 台東 花蓮 宜蘭這幾個自來水跟就是減水的沒有到達90%以上的這個縣市能夠增設我們的工作人員 比如說"},{"start":10986.816,"end":11014.799,"text":"因為他有時候要申請門牌有的時候要申請一些同意書可能都要勞駕我們地區的鄉公所來幫忙自來水的業務可是在這個管道的地區有時候一個鄉的範圍比綻花縣還大所以我想說希望在自來水的這個業務上面能夠多多用心接下來進到今天的主題我們針對第三條第六款 第七款 第八款我們都有修正理由"},{"start":11016.263,"end":11044.566,"text":"就針對海域的部分希望是對傳統文化記憶跟自用來使用就是非營利行為第二個就是第七款的部分就是免申請就是說如果是用在傳統文化部落的建築比如說機關、學校、教會、公共設施的話應該是免申請然後它的原則就是希望善用原住民主保留讓那個資源因為是根據我們現在原住民主基本法第十九條的第三款"},{"start":11045.607,"end":11057.903,"text":"及時下來做修正最後呢就是希望他的數量部分我可以考次長我們莫拉克崩災我們高平溪那個流域的那個土方大概多少嗎"},{"start":11059.482,"end":11086.532,"text":"那個將近差不多超過2億對我剛剛看的資料是2.6億立方其實我們就看到這樣的因為我們就在那個地區看到那麼多砂石可是像我們原住民要使用任何一塊石頭可能我們看那個動輒政法所以我們今天修法的目的就是其實就是希望說政府能夠重視我們在地部落在地居民他其實是可以部分利用"},{"start":11086.972,"end":11107.831,"text":"所以這個數量的部分是常常讓人恐懼就是因為我不知道今天我是載了一卡車還是一個多少公噸的一個土方會違法或怎麼樣所以我們希望能夠公告它的數量然後是使用我們救災啊或者是防護修繕聚會所建的一個或者是修繕道路做一個優先的一個採集"},{"start":11109.315,"end":11123.885,"text":"是委員所提到的這個部分我們在今天參加會議的裡面我們也看到其他包括委員有修正的這個動議提出來那我們希望說未來在土池的採取的部分只要是不牡蠣"},{"start":11124.986,"end":11142.464,"text":"只要不是惡意然後去迫害國土的部分特別是在原住民地區如何踐行原住民基本法我們可以透過這次的修法裡面來大家共同討論是不是給我們一點時間我們來跟各個提案的委員來進行相關的這個溝通"},{"start":11144.045,"end":11172.478,"text":"最後一個數據參考就是這是馬太安的部分就是馬太安的那個殺死量也超過6600萬可是到目前為止清出的那個數量也還不到100萬公噸超過了嗎清出來到離開河川的差不多超過2000萬超過2000萬那我的意思是說其實這些都對部落來講其實都是很可惜如果說可以用在地方重建的話我是不是有個具有數字可以讓大家參考"},{"start":11173.363,"end":11191.462,"text":"是 我們這個會請水利署在未來土石的去化甚至在未來馬太安的重建的部分因為這涉及到我們包括原住民地區的民眾的一些意見多多跟當地來交流最後跟委員說到委員所關心的"},{"start":11192.643,"end":11208.169,"text":"不管是我們偏鄉或是山區所謂的減益自來水的部分剛剛委員有提到是不是可以透過輔導團的方式來增進我們地方政府執行的量能這個我們也會請水利署依照這個方向來執行好 謝謝次長好 謝謝好 謝謝這個盧憲英委員 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問你發芽的因為發芽的部分有可能它會流入市面會去種會種毒嗎不是種毒 是會去種啦 種在田裡面種 我說吃了會怎麼樣不是 吃的是食藥署他們所主管的所以你不管吃的問題對對對 我們是負責檢驗的那就請莊市長可以回答"},{"start":102.481,"end":116.47,"text":"報告委員就是有關這個如果一旦這個農業部有看有發芽的部分他們會剔除啦但是我們會針對那個他們那一批沒有發芽我們會去驗如果驗出農苦鹽超過200ppm我們整批都會退印"},{"start":117.663,"end":121.987,"text":"吃了這些發芽的馬鈴薯有什麼後遺症?會不會中毒?我們不建議發芽就不建議吃吃了會有什麼後遺症?會有什麼後果?可以跟大家分享一下嗎?"},{"start":143.928,"end":165.94,"text":"如果吃了會造成身體什麼樣的不適嘛因為你介意不要吃就可能看含量多少啦會有不等的症狀如果說那個含量發芽的他可能會就是那個那個節儉的那個濃度會比較高嘛或者那個未成熟的吃了就會造成人體的不適嘛那會有什麼症狀"},{"start":167.952,"end":193.046,"text":"可能會有嘔吐、神心性的一些症狀就是會有噁心、嘔吐、腹痛、腹瀉輕微中毒者一至二天內他會自動痊癒重者則因劇烈的嘔吐導致脫水、電解質、不平衡及血壓下降更嚴重者會造成昏迷、抽搐、呼吸重疏、麻痺導致死亡"},{"start":195.147,"end":210.414,"text":"所以我看到我搜尋了一下我們全國各縣市政府的衛生局啊都在呼籲說請勿食用發芽的馬鈴薯啊所以衛福部那你的意見呢"},{"start":211.499,"end":227.583,"text":"我們也是呼籲民眾如果看到芭芽就不要吃吃的就是很可能造成我們身體健康的危害所以衛福部的立場是跟全國各縣市的衛生局是一樣的有做這方面的宣導那我再請教農業部"},{"start":235.558,"end":262.296,"text":"胡市長 是那你在今年的2月6號你就公告訂定對於現在美國產加工用的馬鈴薯輸入檢疫條件做出調整是請問為什麼做出調整調整就是把本來進口的不管是先時或者是加工如果一旦查到的話就退運那後來2月6號調整是把先時的跟加工的把它分開"},{"start":263.462,"end":275.535,"text":"用途不同因為先時進來先時跟加工但是你現在是針對加工的部分有沒有你就是讓他不是像這個我們剛才講的發血有發癌的就全部不得輸入你現在是讓他輸入"},{"start":276.789,"end":299.536,"text":"然後再去做篩檢不是我們有三道把關第一個就是我們如果檢疫的時候發現有發芽的部分我們就會跟這個如果他發芽的太長了或者是比例太高了比如說達到兩三成我們也會要求他退運或銷毀那如果很少因為過去這幾年來平均"},{"start":300.376,"end":328.453,"text":"查驗到發芽是只有0.6如果我們發現了以後我們會要求這些進口人他要提出一個改善計畫其實市長我想問你就是說你新的法規跟舊的法規為什麼要做這種調整你原本規定就是說只要超過5毫米啊發芽超過5毫米就不得輸入嘛是那你現在為什麼再去做不一樣的改變現在是放寬嘛不是 用途不同啦"},{"start":329.994,"end":356.069,"text":"他說他這個發芽的長度是多少是你再去查 請加工廠來查驗是不是這樣不是 我們查驗的不是加工廠查驗是他如果要進來的話因為我們有做海關查驗喔不是你查驗 不是我們有檢疫人員在海關就檢查到了如果有的話而且情況不是很嚴重那這樣的情況我們會問這些進口的人那你是抽檢還是每一顆都查"},{"start":356.969,"end":357.309,"text":"一個貨櫃有幾顆馬鈴薯?一個貨櫃25公噸"},{"start":387.75,"end":411.405,"text":"除非說有懷疑它懷疑說這個有黑色斑點我們把它送到我們的實驗感染場所我們現在的整個我們就是對馬鈴薯的輸入我查到的資料除進口的冷凍馬鈴薯外馬鈴薯種屬除外生鮮或冷藏的主要的輸入國是美國約佔85%還有澳大利亞約佔15%"},{"start":415.908,"end":429.779,"text":"那我請問你,你這次是針對美國的加工再做一個調整那澳大利亞進口的部分呢?照原來的方式就排除啦?按照舊法規?他們如果只有針對美國因為那個是美國產加工馬鈴薯的輸入檢疫條件"},{"start":436.124,"end":462.01,"text":"那澳國的呢 澳洲的呢澳洲他就是照目前他沒有跟我們談那你為什麼要這樣子去做區別呢美國跟那個澳大利亞為什麼要做區別因為美國給你們施壓是不是不是 這個是本來我們就不斷的兩國之間的諮商這個是一直都在做的所以我說其實我們對美國產加公用馬鈴薯輸入嫌疑條件二月份做這樣的公告"},{"start":463.01,"end":482.24,"text":"其實放寬這個條件就是針對美國這個地區進口的馬鈴薯來做變更調整嘛這整個談判我們就覺得是非常不公平啦是在國際上啊其實也都只有針對加工啦針對加工沒有相值加工那澳大利亞的你為什麼不把他歸類進去因為事實上我們要供"},{"start":484.542,"end":505.024,"text":"我們在民國94年的時候那時候就一致性跟每一個國家那後來陸陸續續有國家之間的相互之商107年的規定跟現在你2月份的公告只針對美國的加工的馬鈴薯做出新的一個公告其他國家你就說剛才跟我講還是用舊的法規"},{"start":505.905,"end":533.556,"text":"所以你為什麼要為美國良心地做一個新的輸入檢疫條件因為其他的國家沒有提出因為事實上我們要公告之前所以我們就放寬美國的馬鈴薯不是這樣子啦不是這樣子因為國際之間的貿易就是這樣的談判其實我剛才我想剛才這個衛生部莊市長講得很清楚發芽的馬鈴薯確實不適合來食用啦不管你是加工後的也是不能吃啊"},{"start":534.117,"end":540.695,"text":"吃的就是為他們國人的健康所以在法官上我們真的是要更加的慎重"},{"start":542.219,"end":563.158,"text":"如果經濟部做這樣的一個開放我想真的對國內的健康其實2月6號公告之前我們在國內已經有公告讓我們的公共政策討論我們有公開14天那在WTO我們也提出公告給他們剛才我們也很多委員關心說你未來對加工廠的選別監管"},{"start":568.863,"end":596.4,"text":"大家很關心啦 如果這些加工廠 他們如何去去這個 去檢測出這些發芽的馬鈴薯 是不適宜的所以你未來加工廠的選別監管你將會如何進行在加工廠裡面啦 我們會會同衛福部在加工 事實上啦 那個加工廠指定的地點其實我們是準用那個保稅區 它所有的監"},{"start":597.641,"end":611.273,"text":"他的標準就是你車子就是貨運車要出來的時候要先貼封條要封尖然後呢GPS要那個車子的能量足夠嗎這個保稅區裡面所有都必須要設因為過去是沒有嘛現在就加入這樣一個規定嘛所以你"},{"start":618.859,"end":641.833,"text":"一定是要更需要更多的人力嘛所以你檢驗人力足夠嗎你照過去過去就沒有這個規定嘛對但是比例不大啦那個會就是我們所抽到的那個太低了0.6而已所以會增加人力沒有錯0.6就很危險了現在你講0.6或許進來的不止0.6"},{"start":643.394,"end":670.523,"text":"這有一個黑素存在啦市長你們不要太有信心啦不是在美國他要進來的時候他們美國國內他自己就要做檢驗了我在書面檢查我剛都看了你們在書面檢疫證明他們提出來你們就同意他進來了最近我們還要檢查啊你才去送到加工廠去做檢測嘛不是不是海關就先檢查啦所以美國進來完全是書面的檢測而已嘛有美國當方面說我這個是沒問題的我這個是沒有發芽的"},{"start":673.369,"end":675.23,"text":"那你們未來到底是採取每批都檢驗還是抽樣的檢驗"},{"start":687.882,"end":707.695,"text":"這個問題很重要在邊境的話當然是抽樣那個是在加工廠裡面加工廠裡面我們是逐批這個比如說這個申請人他有這一批裡面有三個貨櫃逐批 逐櫃 逐顆在加工廠裡面我們全部逐顆 每一顆都會檢查對要落實啦謝謝委員的關心我們很重視我們非常重視 謝謝"},{"start":717.927,"end":718.15,"text":"零四"}]}},{"id":"17379","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17379","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fce063c99885a10fc29fa8a86ff2d6ccbdb1d480c4e0b4ea524bd16399827d671e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-3院會付委）\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-7院會付委）\n（四）委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「民法第一千零三十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-6院會付委）\n（八）委員林月琴等22人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-9院會付委）\n（十二）委員黃捷等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員范雲等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第（十八）、（十九）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（二）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（四）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（五）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（六）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（七）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n【第（七）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（八）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2026-04-23","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-04-23T08:35:38+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-23T11:03:00+08:00","duration":8842,"影片長度":"02:27:22","委員發言時間":"08:35:38 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宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫並備質詢本次會議有委員陳昭芝等10人提出質詢"},{"start":1559.694,"end":1586.485,"text":"委員蔡啟昌提出書面質詢決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關禁書送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢請問各位上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有錯誤或遺漏 議事錄我們就確定啦接著介紹到場的委員及應邀列席官員先介紹在場委員 我們陳昭之委員"},{"start":1588.738,"end":1604.868,"text":"跟林倩琦委員接著我們來介紹應邀列席的官員法務部部長鄭明謙正部長還有我們法律事務室代理師長謝志明代理師長"},{"start":1610.243,"end":1616.928,"text":"檢察司副司長有來了 檢美會副司長 跟您介紹一下這沒有辦法 您都先刮 先刮到白天不知道 您已經先刮 頭先還要黏一下司法院少年級家事廳廳長 鐘鐘林這個廳長"},{"start":1627.204,"end":1654.746,"text":"其他沒介紹到的列席代表就參閱名單我就不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄那本次的議程討論事項共計排定兩案分別為病案審查民法親屬篇部分條文修正草案一共19案病案審查民法親屬篇施刑法增訂第七條之一條文草案一共8案"},{"start":1655.166,"end":1672.671,"text":"那本次會議我們今天就只進行詢答那因為第二案中那個8那個尚未收到各黨團簽署的不附議同意書那我們就按照開會通知單所載就不予審查我們現在是不是來進行委員的提案說明每一位委員發言3分鐘"},{"start":1684.875,"end":1687.84,"text":"我們先請第一位 林倩琦委員你如果要過時間可以縮低一分錢就更好"},{"start":1700.315,"end":1724.505,"text":"主席還有輔會同仁大家好那麼針對今天這個民法親屬篇的這個部分條文修正草案那本席在這邊先針對我的提案本席的提案有關於民法離婚與贍養費制度的這個整體修正那主要的目的是在回應當前社會的家庭形態轉變那麼並建立符合現代婚姻關係跟經濟公平的一個制度架構"},{"start":1725.385,"end":1740.694,"text":"那麼首先在離婚制度的這個部分呢現在現行的規範是以責任歸屬為核心那麼容易會讓這個訴訟的過程由於指責過失跟介入隱私沒有辦法回歸婚姻是不是已經實質破裂的這個"},{"start":1741.374,"end":1764.542,"text":"判斷所以本案的修正是刪除部分已經不符實務的劣舉事由那麼同時明定夫妻不同居達三年且處於持續狀態者得提起離婚是制度來回歸婚姻破綻主義之精神並兼顧個案的這個平衡那由法院來判斷是否有顯示公平"},{"start":1765.322,"end":1786.006,"text":"那麼其次呢在這個善養費制度喔那麼現行的規範是以無過失作為請求的要件已經不太符合現在的這個婚姻平等的理念那本案呢修正刪除無過失的限制改以離婚後限於生活困難或因婚姻分工制就業能力減損機會減少者為請求的基礎"},{"start":1789.927,"end":1804.114,"text":"那麼使贍養費來回歸填補經濟落差跟補償家庭投入的本質那麼同時呢本案增第1057條之一至五從請求方式 著定標準減免適由"},{"start":1806.235,"end":1830.641,"text":"全力消灭到行使期间建构完整制度体系使赡养费的制度具备明确规范跟可预期性那么本案的核心在于让制度回到公平与现实让婚姻的结束不再是对一方的不当负担而是经济与责任的合理重整那么以上呢敬请各位委员支持本案"},{"start":1832.898,"end":1838.321,"text":"接下來本席針對《民法親屬篇》的施行法增訂第七之一條本案主要是配合《民法》第1052條裁判離婚制度的修正增訂《民法》親屬篇的施行法"},{"start":1858.914,"end":1886.291,"text":"第七條之一那麼目的是在釐清新舊法銜接的這個問題那麼確保制度適用的一致性跟法律的明確性那麼民法修改這個修法來放寬裁判離婚的事由使法院得以回歸婚姻是否以實質破裂之判斷那麼符合現在家庭關係跟婚姻自由之發展趨勢然而如果對目前私情已經發生的事實加以規範"},{"start":1887.392,"end":1913.566,"text":"可能會產生適用疑義影響當事人的權益那麼具體來說過去已經發生的婚姻破裂事實如果在新法施行前未符合舊法離婚的要件卻在新法下已經構成離婚的事由若人不得適用新法提起離婚之訴將會導致制度改革就沒有辦法完整的發揮這個效果"},{"start":1914.767,"end":1929.636,"text":"那也有違修法的意旨所以本案明定在修法施行前所發生之事時依修正後第1052條之規定足以構成離婚原因者當事人即可提起離婚之訴"},{"start":1930.99,"end":1955.231,"text":"藉此來確保法律適用標準一致並避免新舊制度交錯所產生的不公平結果本案為離婚制度改革之重要配套措施有助於落實婚姻破綻主義之精神並保障人民婚姻自主與司法救濟的權利以上敬請各位委員支持本案謝謝也謝謝主席"},{"start":1956.31,"end":1961.976,"text":"好 謝謝林建琦 林委員那接下來我們來進行機關代表的報告每位發言時間三分鐘我們現在請法務部政務部長"},{"start":1973.742,"end":2001.298,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天奉邀列席貴賓會就民法傾訴篇部分條文及施行法增訂7條1修正草案代表本部列席說明並被質詢那這一次的一個修法是因應憲法法庭112年宣判制第4號判決憲法法庭指出現行民法部分情況一律不准唯一有責配有請求離分可能導致個案顯然過客屬於部分違憲"},{"start":2002.319,"end":2013.434,"text":"因此本部依前概判決意旨檢討裁判離婚及離婚後財產的效力規範據直接查案已完備我國離婚法制"},{"start":2014.195,"end":2036.082,"text":"那裁判離婚的原因是依破綻主義精神 足以放寬裁判離婚的要件分區一定其間客觀事實為離婚室友那剩餘財產的分配是強化福氣財產揭露的遺物明定請求他們可以提出財產清澈等相關文件那善養會制度改革刪除過失財能請求的一個限制納入就業能力節省作為補償性"},{"start":2037.282,"end":2058.804,"text":"善良會的基礎那子女撫養會調整受撫養權力的一個順序將尊親屬、卑親屬列為同一順序那目前現在司法院對部分條文能有不同意見那本部的意見如下那關於強化夫妻財產揭露的部分本部能建立在與實體法徵定請求提供"},{"start":2059.644,"end":2078.934,"text":"產產清澈等相關文件的依據那管理分析期間的計算行政院版是五年內累計三年教司法院版累計三年更符合破產主義的精神善養會的減免部分司法院建立是以取得剩餘產產分配即可減免善養會為剩餘產產是過去貢獻的分配善養會是未來生活的補償"},{"start":2079.814,"end":2103.584,"text":"性質不同無重複評價的問題那本部建立調整直系血清間的撫養順序以保障未成年子女的權利那本部對各委員所提出的離分法制的修正方向竟表贊同對各該修正條文的意見請參謀書面報告第七頁以下主條分析那本次修法是落實分定自由使離分法規範更客觀"},{"start":2105.945,"end":2124.561,"text":"更為客觀並兼顧他方配偶權利的保障進行大院支持以及建構更符合現代人權價值的親屬法治以上報告敬請書錫及各位委員指教好 謝謝法務部正部長接下來我們請司法院中廳長"},{"start":2132.545,"end":2152.978,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進今天奉命到貴委員會來就有關於民法1052條第二項相關的修法請就各委員提案做如下之報告第一點關於委員這個"},{"start":2155.479,"end":2182.731,"text":"鄭天才委員、沈發慧委員、歡迎委員、林玉琴委員、蔡宇宜委員、林宜謹委員、陳淑月委員、賴慧媛委員、吳立華委員、還有歡迎委員、羅廷委員等、邱振軍委員等提案一致提案對民法第1022條第二項來增訂那本院有以下幾點意見報告第一在"},{"start":2184.192,"end":2200.389,"text":"這個1022的第一項本身它的立法理由就已經揭示是在落實剩餘財產分配請求權的一個規範那麼本次這個提案徵修第二項立法理由是說要落實剩餘財產分配請求權同時強化戶區財產揭露"},{"start":2204.773,"end":2225.831,"text":"那第一點我們認為似乎有重複規定的這個疑慮第二是有關夫妻財產揭露的部分在我國的民法已經規定夫妻就婚後財產互互有報告義務那這部分似乎也可以再做那第二個就有關增訂的這一項剩餘財產"},{"start":2228.533,"end":2249.739,"text":"因對方應提出的這個文件並沒有名列哪些相訂明確的文件第三呢未有這些具體內容那如果沒有提出也沒有相關的效法律效果那現在現行家事事件法第三條第五項第四款跟1498條已經定有"},{"start":2253.34,"end":2281.283,"text":"報告戶籍財產狀況的非送事件那這一部分已經有相關的規範可使用所以本院敬請在座那關於歡迎委員以及這個相關提案徵休民法1030條之一第二項修正第五六項等這個修正還有修正民法1011條第二項那有關這個配偶請求職業退休金的分配"},{"start":2282.203,"end":2292.517,"text":"這個已經行政院召開各級部會討論後在各個法律中分別明定所以我們見請在座那有關那個委員提案1030-1第6項來增訂那這一部分這個"},{"start":2297.463,"end":2316.824,"text":"因為民法1013條刪除後適用法定夫妻財產制已無特有財產所以在約定共同財產制下保留特有財產制所以依民法1017適用法定財產夫妻就其婚前財產婚後財產各自有管理使用收益所以建請在座"},{"start":2317.324,"end":2344.594,"text":"那再來就是1052條第二項有關行政院跟各位委員提案的分居的這個要件的認定五年內累積分居三年以達用這個累積分居期間以達三年來計算裁判離分的要件那本院審酌結果提出下列幾點供參酌那有關這個分居有的一個計算"},{"start":2346.255,"end":2364.874,"text":"有關這個在我們大法官釋制這個112號宪判4號是明定相當期間未有共同生活之分居事實另外呢在這個世界各國都以繼續未能共同生活已達一定法定期間那再來就是有關這個"},{"start":2366.195,"end":2387.206,"text":"分居它的一個客觀事實的認定必須要用舉證那麼以日數或哪些時間下計算在實際的訴訟上有相當的困難所以我們建議是採這個所謂的連續達三年以上那最後就是1057條第一項這個明定說這個"},{"start":2391.348,"end":2410.254,"text":"有關夫妻請求對方給互善良費的這個請求那麼這個部分本院認為說有關民法我們家事事件法已經在非送事件訂有夫妻一方請求對方給互善良費的在100條訂有各種給互方法來讓法官審酌保護一方的弱勢後公平"},{"start":2418.177,"end":2429.567,"text":"那麼如果增訂這一條它只限定於這個選擇條件跟這個需要的給付方式是比較有限所以我們請求在座那有關最後這是1057條第二項的增訂補償性的這個善良費"},{"start":2434.691,"end":2439.775,"text":"那就是就離婚史就業能力的減損跟就業機會的這個減少這個審酌要件的請求善良費本人認為第一有重複審酌的意義就是在夫妻生育財產的1030-1也有同樣的規定那在"},{"start":2454.187,"end":2462.213,"text":"再來就是我們有攸關這個增訂1057-1-2第七款善良費這些事實都重複那麼同時就夫妻財產狀況本來就互互有報告義務那麼在這個情況下我們建議說如果能鑿定就是給另外一方對已經給予善良費或相當補償的話可以請求酌以減免那這個最後一個就是有關"},{"start":2484.518,"end":2490.803,"text":"提案修正民法1115 116 117 116-1 118 18-1 119這部分是關於有關這個撫養義務人權利人的一些相關的規定那在這個部分本院發現有幾項兩項的質疑報告供各位參考那也就是說現行這個修訂"},{"start":2508.337,"end":2519.612,"text":"把這個所謂的沒有區分子女是成年未成年的順位第二個也把直系中心組並列為撫養權利人的第一順位那麼這個在這個有關"},{"start":2523.957,"end":2539.443,"text":"父母不能維持自己生活的時候父母也只能請求減輕不能免除這部分進行再走最後就是現在的撫養方法現在已經不用親屬會議決定都交由法官裁定所以"},{"start":2540.563,"end":2558.098,"text":"本版衛救一一二零並為修正有關善良會消除婦女一切不平等歧視公約等在這個受撫養義務的順位上有關民法一一一七條第一項未見列入以上本院見請在座謝謝"},{"start":2561.192,"end":2570.098,"text":"好 謝謝那其餘列席機關有無口頭補充若沒有機關代表就報告完畢相關書面內容請各位來參閱並列入公報記錄現在我們開始來進行詢答本會委員詢答時間"},{"start":2583.083,"end":2604.837,"text":"八分鐘就八分鐘 必要時得延長兩分鐘 最高的自動消音非本會委員巡打時間五分鐘 並不再延長那我們上午十點三十分截止發言登記現在請第一位登記發言的委員 這個最專業的 來 程昭之委員謝謝主席 有請鄭部長"},{"start":2612.568,"end":2613.909,"text":"請鄭部長部長早 今天委員會我們要討論有關民法親屬片的贍養費的請求權的修正那我想先請教部長您對贍養費的定性就是在現代民法中是被定義為撫養義務的延伸還是一個婚姻的補償"},{"start":2636.471,"end":2641.014,"text":"柯佩琪你簡單說明跟委員報告其實善養費事實上是對未來生活的補償它是一個補償的性質那過去在司法實務上因為長期善養費的請求要件實在太嚴格了所以把生活陷於困難當作唯一的門檻"},{"start":2656.482,"end":2660.583,"text":"那這本質是一種過去是個救濟的思維那不是權力的補償同時也可能對於為了家庭犧牲而沒有辦法減少就業能力或機會的這一方讓法院再如何去做一個合理公平的客觀評價會遇到一些困難"},{"start":2677.529,"end":2691.021,"text":"那本次修法 社養費的請求要件不單限於這個生活限於困難這點本席給予非常高的肯定跟支持但是對於家庭的心力跟貢獻這個部分我想要來繼續延續這個問題請問法務部認為修法的方向"},{"start":2695.225,"end":2712.619,"text":"是不是已經做到這個去體察或是呈現該方的家務勞動價值跟職癌機會成本而且避免在婚姻當中被剝削的那個一方的這個弱勢配偶他就是變得變相的一個剝削就請問你認為現在修法有沒有達到這幾個精神"},{"start":2716.614,"end":2740.18,"text":"我想這部分我們修法就是要鼓勵到的確是這是未來嘛 未來的生活的話是不是有困難那當然有離婚時的話有減損的那個工作能力跟就業的一些的一個機會那當然是因為離婚後我們也會保障部長很抱歉 因為很多時候聽你報告你就說離婚時其實是離婚的時候之前在這段婚姻當中"},{"start":2741.16,"end":2766.732,"text":"他有減損的這個減損我想當然是一個很準的時間點因為裁判離婚嘛就是一個離婚史或兩院離婚的時候離婚史那時候就一個檢視的一個時間點當然那個原因事實的行為可能會發生在婚姻關係程序中的那個都有那我想這部分也要是保障一個離婚的另外的一個補償的保障他的一個生活嘛"},{"start":2767.652,"end":2791.954,"text":"剛剛相關報告有提到 贍養費是具有補償婚姻的貢獻這件事是補償的功能那為什麼現在送進立法院的這個草案版本還是保留這個再婚即消滅的制度這個部分我也是經過思考然後我今天想跟你討論這個問題如果贍養費是為了補償過去的婚姻制度婚姻的貢獻為何會因為未來身份改變"},{"start":2792.995,"end":2796.557,"text":"就一筆勾銷的呢這難道不然是長期救濟的一種思維嗎他在補償他過去那他身份改變了就不需要補償了嗎就一筆勾銷了嗎所以我想請問部長假設一個原來全職的配偶他因為前段婚姻他犧牲了也許20年的就業競爭力那難道再婚之後"},{"start":2817.291,"end":2833.077,"text":"該方原先喪失成長空間的職業啦 或減少就業的機會 包括升等 值等就能夠因此自動補回嗎 顯然是不會的所以我對於這個再婚籍消滅這部分 又因為說為了婚姻的補償這個概念我想請部長您可不可以簡單的回答 這樣子是有沒有漢格呢"},{"start":2840.521,"end":2856.669,"text":"我認為那個一個再婚再婚就是建立一個新的婚姻關係了那夫妻之間有撫養的一個義務啦那讓那個深入關係的單純化那事實上這不是我們國家發明的這個是我們有參考德國瑞士立法立法乾淨的分手也就是說"},{"start":2857.389,"end":2862.932,"text":"這個善良會對不起我現在第一句就是第一段就跟你問這是撫養義務的延伸還是說對婚姻的一個補償既然是一個補償這不是撫養義務因為夫妻離婚之後就沒有互相撫養的義務的這個問題所以不得我的疑慮所以委員你可能對這個撫養義務因為撫養義務是婚姻夫妻有撫養的義務所以我對於草案中保留再婚及消滅的部分那是一個生活會的一個補償"},{"start":2883.963,"end":2886.465,"text":"因為我們對弱勢離婚因為發生生活困難或者是就有機會減少或者那個那個能力 陌生能力的一個精神我有請教很多朋友齁就是說期待台灣現在的這個經濟那個變成說結婚越多的話那個那個是不是說會讓我們這個婚姻的一個"},{"start":2902.236,"end":2903.919,"text":"有個關係還可以再領贍養費不停不停我現在就事論理就是就理論理再婚即消滅就是期待他方再婚時補償責任的遺轉呢那不就跟贍養費是原配的補償說互相衝突嘛"},{"start":2920.049,"end":2940.714,"text":"你的意思是說他再結婚了那你過去的補償都不算數就不要再補償我想這個先進國家那個德國瑞士那個世界很先進的國家他們那個對這一種的要乾淨的分手因為今年那個再婚了就是新的婚姻的關係的一個建立有新的一個生活那變成說你現在再婚的配合跟原來的離婚的配合還要供養撫養要補償那個"},{"start":2942.854,"end":2963.44,"text":"那個一個雙重的一個一個我對你就是換個思考你就聽 我也很認真在思考我想這個是外國的立法律有非常清楚的一個立法律而且實行得非常好再婚不會改變前段婚姻它因為就業簽署的事實再婚的話因為前段婚姻已經結束了嘛那只是再婚只是因為對生活的一個比喻這是我們過去也思維嘛我對我們現在就是要討論啦這樣要修法嘛因為世界新的國家就是用這一套的再處理的嘛"},{"start":2966.301,"end":2972.705,"text":"這次的正當性就是來自過去為一個家庭的犧牲跟奉獻所以贍養費的求全基礎就不應該因為再婚的事實跟否定這個是本席目前跟院版修法方向最大的分歧我還是請部長好好思考因為本次修法竟然是依循112年限判制第四號的判決要平衡離婚自由"},{"start":2989.295,"end":3015.521,"text":"跟弱勢保障的核心修改的配套措施而且善養費又被視為這次弱勢該判決的一個意旨所以在本次修法當中才會納入機會成本的補償概念所以我想請教部長法務部是否願意重新檢討思考善養費因再婚而消滅的這條款其實跟你所謂的補償機制的完整性不依身份而變動是打折扣的"},{"start":3016.992,"end":3030.488,"text":"我想這個經過我們多方的一個討論學者專家還有外國的立法律我們是有得到這樣的一個先進的法治非常講邏輯跟道理那我覺得我們本部"},{"start":3032.21,"end":3057.067,"text":"的意見就是依照行政院院版的這個意見因為這經過各部會專家學者機關代表的一個討論因為主席都不給我時間等一下幫我消音博定我還是請教你另外一個問題我還是請你好好的思考剛剛我講的精神補償不會因為你再婚那你就移轉給另外一個人了嗎不是嘛就是補償他過去這一段的貢獻或是他的減損那博定我要請教你"},{"start":3057.807,"end":3069.481,"text":"八德外一間擴建工程延宕的事因為我們前立委這個黃國昌講了很多次我不再講贅述內容背景請問部長十個月前那個黃正次他被尋時回憶他說會針對審計部所提的報告進行檢討工程案那請問出來了沒有"},{"start":3076.65,"end":3082.834,"text":"檢討報告出來沒有誰負責有沒有誰要受到這個懲罰我具體的提問針對那個審計部他認為應該適用政府採購法第99條卻沒有去適用這是他講的話不是我講的話辦理過程顯現合法這個就是不法的意思部長那法務部要不要檢討要不要承認這是違法的啊審計部說的不是我說的啊"},{"start":3101.309,"end":3116.156,"text":"他這個黃國昌委員他那時候在去年有質詢的那一部分那事實上我們本部有在去年這個檢討報告也就有回覆了黃志答應了他現在都高調離開要去參選了耶他沒有高調離開啦他是我們全部參選 好好好大家都知道嘛法務部應該要交到立法院的檢討報告那你什麼時候可以給我們嘛"},{"start":3128.968,"end":3137.972,"text":"因為為什麼呢 這個部長你也清楚 六天前監察院報告有指出花了29億的歪一間這個在去年8月20日就已經含糊了沒有 這個檢討報告 你也知道第一階段 第二階段延宕時間一個365天 一個1073天耶那我想這個延宕的這個情形 這個是一個廠商的一個停工嘛"},{"start":3151.357,"end":3153.5,"text":"那部長我再講更細緻的部分兩階段的缺失到今年月為止 總共有5099項第一階段的工程甚至有17次的復驗"},{"start":3168.661,"end":3172.224,"text":"那其中16項 今天沒有改變喔沒有改進喔 到現在還沒有改進喔所以今天蔣介石署長沒有來啦我本來請教他 不過請部長就來回答面對同胞商如此低劣的施工品質施工品質跟長期延宕 有兩個問題嘛不只是延宕嘛 那個施工品質有幾千項的問題啊那為什麼沒有及時介入管理呢 強制管理作為呢"},{"start":3194.944,"end":3200.007,"text":"這個我們有要求他們要做一個改善所以他不改善的話我們就是有一個可以依照企業的來來那個那個罰錢喔那另外那個我們也是腳證書事實上有說是督導的那個巴德外間的那些工程嘛那我們要求他們要全部的來改善的一個缺失嘛那個安全品質嘛這個就想我們就按照企業的一個的規定不管是疏失"},{"start":3219.897,"end":3225.421,"text":"還是說擺著沒有去理他我們沒有擺著去理他我們就是要求他們一定要立即要改善他那不改善我們就花錢嘛23年7月他就進駐嘛但是現在到1月才啟動維護保養合約這兩年的空窗期耶都沒有設備維護紀錄也沒有考量管理跟運作的安全現在也在啟用收治那個受刑人"},{"start":3243.513,"end":3258.526,"text":"一個是延宕嘛 一個就是這樣嘛有 那這個我們都有去做小正部的公文這樣子不好他的新聞稿說都歸咎於外部不可控的責任啦你不能說出事 都說外部的問題啦什麼新冠啦 什麼一大堆問題你自己還是有要檢討的這個部分啦"},{"start":3262.208,"end":3269.872,"text":"因為如果這件事都不能夠好好有一個檢討報告處理老實說啦我們快要檢視法務部的寵預算因為這個東西在你在幾次的復驗當中你耗費那麼久的時間我們真的會擔心浪費耗納稅人的納稅錢你說叫我們怎麼來審理過去的這些都還沒補正啊委員關係的這個問題我再請教證書再提書面報告"},{"start":3287.639,"end":3290.681,"text":"一定要的啦 不能再拖延了啦當時為什麼那麼多措施 幾千項措施 沒有人去介入管理啊然後又空轉兩年多 完全沒有保養 沒有安全的營運服務我們矯正署是很負責任 是有去"},{"start":3304.748,"end":3320.236,"text":"我聽說這樣看到工程是這樣在做的所以審計部跟工程會都有提出糾正我們假設做了哪些以及廠商做了哪些的要求措施這部分我們再用書面報告那您的報告什麼時候可以讓我知道呢就是你究責的情況"},{"start":3321.414,"end":3338.079,"text":"那我想一週 一個禮拜好不好一個禮拜 那我要清楚看到了因為主席要趕我了 但是請你記得 拜託你這些事情我們要了解 這是我們的責任就行政機關好好做 我們好好監督謝謝主席 謝謝部長謝謝 這是比較專業的對話不是我趕你 我怕你被謝龍介趕走接下來我們請謝龍介委員來做詢答"},{"start":3349.929,"end":3350.649,"text":"請問法務部正部長委員長補充辛苦"},{"start":3376.719,"end":3381.804,"text":"法務部最不簡單就是我們登記以來已經建立了檢測官調動的一個機制"},{"start":3386.649,"end":3396.579,"text":"我請教你每一年檢測官的調動大概都在什麼時間八月底左右這是一個通案調動嗎那平時的話有個別的需求嗎檢測官調報來辦公也是過去有嗎"},{"start":3405.756,"end":3430.19,"text":"這個調布測試延期很久我想各部會各個機關都有這個樣的調布的一個機制嘛那檢察官會有調布調去國安會辦公過去有沒有這個例子我們沒有從來歷史上從沒到以後大概我們大概沒有這個調檢察官去到國安會辦事的這個這個先例空洩不來風啊"},{"start":3433.052,"end":3452.742,"text":"我相信你也很了解老總統的性格我也很了解他對很多事情是很嚴謹的尤其是你的制度跟保守動力之間如果是違背分寸對他來說這是一個很嚴重的事情當然"},{"start":3458.001,"end":3474.133,"text":"民間在團結這個國安會 因為國安會主席就是總統嘛所以總統如果在那邊 他如果知道這個情形是有藍圈的嫌疑這樣最好總統 他如果是事先不瞭解他就會覺得說有人欺騙他他會選擇就是想拖下人欺騙他"},{"start":3484.761,"end":3487.606,"text":"這個委員 國安會委員還要跟法務部來調這個檢察官來國安會辦公這個事情"},{"start":3495.191,"end":3505.303,"text":"你認不認識這個事情這個我們已經用我們新聞稿有澄清我有看你的新聞稿我們新聞稿國安會也有澄清嘛沒有這回事啦我想這個是誤傳啦你不要說誤傳我現在說一個詞寫下去聽我現在說一個詞寫下去聽"},{"start":3516.696,"end":3523.621,"text":"調辦事一定要依照一個程序啊沒有調辦事沒有這回事啦你現在是不是有說過要經濟啊這個是我們調法務部辦事啊有嘛喔好來調法務部辦事你聽我說嘛我知道啦沒事情就好你貪婪衣對"},{"start":3539.741,"end":3564.703,"text":"卡蘇調來這個主任檢察官 因為你是說現在這個主任檢察官他已經來到法務部兩年要告了嘛你的新聞局是這樣啦所以 因為我們那個檢察官現在在沒關係啦 要告啦 你現在要再選掉一個選掉一個 你就是依公開徵詢嘛 可不可以他公開徵詢不就按照我們制度來公開徵詢嘛好啊 最好這個如果姓馬的"},{"start":3567.718,"end":3571.299,"text":"我現在跟你說這樣就好了,是不是這樣我不知道來我現在就跟你說這樣嘛,人家跟我講,我講給你聽,你回去注意一下你回去注意就是說這個有報名的"},{"start":3584.906,"end":3596.972,"text":"我現在跟你說是不是小媽的 最好來這個人已經去總統府看過辦公室 我比較要跟你說他如果沒有做這些事情 我跟你說什麼人家在處理這些事情是沒有跟你說的嘛人家沒有讓你知道嘛你有可能你是屬下比較知道嘛所以我今天藉用這個機會跟你說"},{"start":3608.973,"end":3613.982,"text":"在這三個月以來 董事人已經去到總統府看過辦公室了"},{"start":3616.155,"end":3635.53,"text":"我不是說今天這樣 最好你是不了解的情形下有可能老總統 阿基隆沒比賽基中這對我們國家體育就不正常嘛再來 四月份這個調辦事本來就是一個很正常的一個機制嘛那個在法務部辦事沒有啦 在法務部辦事他去總統府看辦公室要幹什麼啦"},{"start":3639.993,"end":3653.425,"text":"這個我第一次聽到所以我告訴你嘛聖空委員報告我們完全是走程序的我知道啦我沒有適宜你的程序啦我沒有質疑你的程序啦我不會道聽途說"},{"start":3657.168,"end":3661.671,"text":"阿不然你現在把總統府這裡的監視器都給這三個月拿出來查看看有沒有阿不然我跟你說的是屬性嘛我用屬性來跟他說你不需要這樣嘛給你 我再給你補充八月份要再調一個"},{"start":3676.431,"end":3677.892,"text":"今天四月二、三我告訴你這個"},{"start":3704.252,"end":3706.533,"text":"你現在說要經濟,最好就是這樣我現在跟你說的就是,人家已經去總統府看過辦公室我認為一個委員、國安會這麼深重的機構不需要因為這樣,最好你如果不知道,總統不知道經營什麼發生這個事情,對我們大家都不好,這樣好不好"},{"start":3727.262,"end":3735.529,"text":"好 謝謝謝榮謝榮這位 我要講 我要建議你這講對他們來說 都傳聞 你知道嗎你請我討論一下 如果有了 我就補兌說這樣就行處理了有你就請我看 對不然我都不知道你是在援補還是說真的 還是說假的補兌這個我幫你倒處理 如果真的我會跟你講對不對 要不然我講是啦 讓補兌也這樣做"},{"start":3756.158,"end":3757.459,"text":"接下來我們請林倩琦委員來做詢答"},{"start":3785.727,"end":3790.729,"text":"好 謝謝我們主席莊昭偉我們請法務部長 政部長請政部長委員早好 部長早那部長本席今天還是先就這個《民法親屬片》這次的增訂1057條之三離婚後的這個贍養制度的修法方向跟你這邊做一個這個詢答跟討論"},{"start":3814.336,"end":3828.601,"text":"目前法務部版本的設計是將贊養費請求權與未到期之定期給付一律歸給權利人在婚或死亡時來消滅但是本席認為這有一個很關鍵的問題我們在這邊需要來考量"},{"start":3833.542,"end":3849.057,"text":"也就是在不同類型的贍養費它的法律性質不太一樣所以本席這邊提出來的版本是將贍養費的兩種類型做更細緻的一個處理所以第一個部分是因為離婚陷於生活困難所產生的撫養性質的贍養費"},{"start":3852.04,"end":3879.465,"text":"那麼第二個部分是因婚姻分工導致就業能力減損所生的補償性質的贍養費那本席認為這兩者在法理上應該有不同的處理方式那麼第一類呢也就是撫養性質的贍養費這個基礎在於婚姻關係延伸的撫養義務因此當權利人再婚之後撫養責任已經依法由新配偶來承擔那麼"},{"start":3881.246,"end":3893.446,"text":"如果人有錢配偶來持續負擔會有撫養利益重疊的問題我想這是法務部的一個看法那也就是剛才其實陳委員這邊有跟部長這邊做一個討論"},{"start":3894.673,"end":3924.179,"text":"那麼所以這樣的情況下呢規定在再婚時消滅是合理的而且符合制度邏輯那您說國外也有這樣子的大概立法例都這樣那但是第二類也就是補償性質的贍養費那麼本席認為這個性質不一樣這一類的請求權是基於婚姻存續期間的角色分工那麼例如一方投入了家庭那麼犧牲了就業機會導致離婚後在經濟上處於不利的地位"},{"start":3924.599,"end":3926.061,"text":"但這個不是撫養的問題這是在婚姻當中因為機會成本的補償那麼本席認為這類補償性質的善養費不應該因為再婚而當然消滅"},{"start":3939.858,"end":3956.595,"text":"否則呢這個婚姻當中長期不對等的分工所造成的經濟不利這個部分就沒有辦法做一個處理那我想這個思考的脈絡在國際上的一個性平等跟實質公平的發展趨勢應該是一致的所以本席這邊請教部長"},{"start":3958.157,"end":3982.015,"text":"那麼目前法務部的版本將不同性質的贍養費來做一體試用再婚及消滅的一個規定是不是能夠再進一步來區分它的性質就如同剛才本席這邊所講的那如果沒有區分那你是不是認同本席這邊所說的可能會產生一些實質不公平因為過去已經投入的這個時間是沒有辦法再補償回來的"},{"start":3983.396,"end":4003.337,"text":"那導致經濟上的相對弱勢這也是事實所以對於本席提出來的補償性贍養費不應再婚消滅的這個設計法務部認不認同本席在法理上的一個區別的一個基礎那本席認為這個部分法務部應該可以再納入再來做一個思考"},{"start":4004.258,"end":4020.431,"text":"那麼最後一個部分是考量我國已經重視婚姻當中無酬的家務勞動跟性別平等的議題那未來在贊養費的制度設計上那麼法務部是不是可以認同我們朝向更精緻一點更類型化來做一個區分而不是"},{"start":4021.212,"end":4035.585,"text":"一體試用那這可能可以解決我相信應該很多人提出來的這有關於山羊肺的這個問題所以是不是可以做一個分類跟分級我這個部分是不是可以做一個參考那不知道部長您這邊的看法"},{"start":4036.89,"end":4062.532,"text":"了解 謝謝委員那委員對這個研究的很深他還做比較細緻的一個分類那的確這個善良會是一個補償的一個性質那的確委員有講過說因為在婚姻關係程序中有些有一方因為是分工合作有些人去上班有些人是從事家務那家務事實上是在我們維繫一個婚姻是一個非常重要的一環那所以說在不管是兩人離婚或者是裁判離婚"},{"start":4063.032,"end":4079.168,"text":"那這些一定要算入這整個一個報酬包括生意財產的分配包括善良會的做一個補償我認為這個都是我們現在法務部我們提出的後來到行政院版都是用這個精神去保障這一些的婚姻的一個"},{"start":4081.31,"end":4104.936,"text":"結束後的一個生活的一個問題那當然那為什麼我們會認為是再婚因為再婚他有經營另外一個新的生活了一個新的一個生活那夫妻我在講他夫妻再婚的配偶跟以現在那個再婚的配偶跟你新配偶他們之間有互付養的一個義務了那我想這個這部分應該"},{"start":4106.096,"end":4122.825,"text":"如果說要再有離婚配偶再去提供善良會的話是不是離婚的配偶跟新配偶對這個要雙重的一個利益因為究竟就像委員講的既然善良會是一個補償性的性質補償既然是補償性質我們認為這個有重複的一個計算的一個"},{"start":4129.318,"end":4152.47,"text":"利益的一個問題所以為什麼這個在外國的立法例像德國瑞士他們立法例為什麼要把再婚跟死亡當作善養會的一個一個請求權的一個消滅的一個室友這就是就是這樣的一個考量那我想我們外國的先進的立法例他們也實行了這樣也經過多方面專家寫一個機關代表的一個討論我們是認為這部分吼當然我們非常欽佩委員對這部分有有比較細緻的一個分類但是我們認為"},{"start":4157.772,"end":4183.969,"text":"在一個婚姻的一個善養會的一個補償性質我們認為這部分我們認為我們是採比較保留的一個看法所以今天特別提出來討論就是說本席這邊提出來的事實上也做一個分級啦那在補償其實還有一些更細緻的這個部分就重要就是說過去已經付出的時間跟實際的投入是很難就這樣子的關係就直接切斷的所以本席這邊也提供一個參考您剛才有講到這個你們"},{"start":4186.07,"end":4205.107,"text":"也參考了過去像德國或是外國有這樣的一個例子這樣的一個立法例但是重點就是說您可能要考慮一下這些國家它其實在社會文化上就不太一樣在相對的婚姻中間的一個平等關係或投入的這個關係有社會文化的一個很大的影響"},{"start":4206.048,"end":4229.956,"text":"所以雖然這些先進國家是這個做法可是可能我們要了解這些先進國家本身在社會文化跟性別平等的這個整個歷史文化上或許走得比我們更長久一點所以在我們實際的這個婚姻關係裡面其實在性別投入家務或投入的部分導致經濟上後續的一個不平等這個是"},{"start":4231.076,"end":4249.08,"text":"真的有的事實我想在很務實的現在社會狀況會有這樣的一個情形委員擔心的我想大家都擔心這個問題啦就是說看起來在婚姻弱勢的一方面因為他沒工作因為我長久沒有我本來就因為很好的工作婚姻而導致的所以說我們那個其實有剩餘財產分配請求錢這部分喔譬如說有工作人員那邊有職業年金的一個問題啦這部分是可以做這樣的一個平衡的一個做一個"},{"start":4259.062,"end":4260.102,"text":"你們可能考慮到其他的一些可能性"},{"start":4282.967,"end":4295.895,"text":"他那個是其實他那個年輕人那部分是可以處理這個區塊啦這個是不過年輕人的部分可能也比較難掌握啦本席這邊重申啦這是修法的一個重點啦這樣就是在這個贍養費的這個如何給付還有"},{"start":4299.137,"end":4317.991,"text":"來 重點就是說如何認定他的性質但在制度上好好的區分一下撫養跟補償才能夠比較兼顧公平我本席在這邊建議法療務部再做更深入一點這個思考好不好在最後我們再來做一個更深的一個解釋我們委員的意見我們都非常的重視所以我們會再做一個思考啦"},{"start":4318.331,"end":4322.936,"text":"好的好謝謝那接下來就是本席這邊再請教一下有關於民法第1052條離婚室友的一個修正方向那麼針對因他方故意犯罪而得請請求離婚的一個門檻"},{"start":4333.408,"end":4357.053,"text":"那法務部的版本目前是宣告六個月以上的有期徒刑把它提高了到兩年那這樣子的思維會不會對家庭暴力的防治毒品處理的問題跟性犯罪被害人的保護會不會產生不利的影響那麼部長您可不可以說明為什麼要從六個月提高到兩年那這部分我請代理事長來回答好嗎這個"},{"start":4361.055,"end":4370.747,"text":"主席好 委員好那針對這個問題其實因為刑度的款次本來是只有逾六個月那因為它實在是太寬鬆了可是當你們認為寬鬆的時候剛才本席講的那幾個情形可能會因為時間而產生一些危險"},{"start":4376.214,"end":4403.516,"text":"因為像我們調整到兩年之後那其實很多室友會跑到那個有關虐待或是其他室友或是在破綻主義這邊會處理不會有漏接狀況尤其是在我們比較最care的家暴的狀況底下其實在第一項的其他款式的有責主義裡面其實很多都可以應用那至於說有其他有可能是屬於破綻主義底下的我們第二項其實也有概括條款可以應用應該是不會出現漏洞"},{"start":4405.042,"end":4424.7,"text":"市長所以我這邊其實還蠻關心就是說剛才我們講了這個時間從六個月到兩年中間會產生很多高度的風險跟不確定性然後最重要你們是不是有進行過這樣一個量化評估針對本席講的可能性然後最重要是說你們有沒有跟民間家暴防治跟私改會私改相關的這個團體"},{"start":4426.041,"end":4445.937,"text":"有充分的溝通那這樣最重要就是六個月到兩年之間本席所講的那些情形你們認為不會但在實務操作上你們有過很量化的一個結果嗎還是跟實務上接觸的團體那他們所回饋的一個情形你們有充分掌握嗎這個很重要就是說那這一次的這個修法方向"},{"start":4446.698,"end":4466.225,"text":"那是不是有機會維持六個月然後來兼顧食物操作跟被害人保護的一個方案那剛才本席講的部分你們是不是應該能夠確實做到跟相關的團體來確認實際執行上跟你們法律修改的這樣一個情形有沒有可能產生一些落差還有實際情形喔 實際情形"},{"start":4468.846,"end":4490.583,"text":"其實因為我們親屬片的修正的過程其實非常的嚴謹這整個過程當中其實邀請的各位研修委員其實就很多是實務界的專家本身就有實務的審判經驗那另外我們在整個法官推論過程當中其實都有預告跟徵詢相關意見的機關的動作那這些東西在評估的時候其實我們都有綜合考量過"},{"start":4491.283,"end":4507.801,"text":"那不過委員您提的我們會再重新再檢視看會不會有漏網之魚不過目前盤點的過程事實上認為應該是在相關的款次裡面其實是應該可以接得住球啦因為我們整個立法方向其實是要放寬離婚的要件而不是要限縮所以"},{"start":4508.822,"end":4535.682,"text":"那個離婚的要件這樣看起來就是會有這個還蠻長一段時間的一個風險所以本席這邊因為時間的關係本席這邊還是跟你們提醒那整個部分本席這邊討論的是保障而不是提高門檻那對被害者的一個保護不能因為時間的這個提高而產生更多的風險好不好那請那個部裡面這邊還是把本席的這個意見再納入這個後續的一個參考好嗎謝謝"},{"start":4539.79,"end":4562.297,"text":"好 謝謝林倩琦委員 接下來請張雅琳委員來做選擇謝謝主席 我們有請部長請鄭部長 和檢察司副司長檢察司副司長委員長"},{"start":4563.513,"end":4583.513,"text":"好 早 首先我想跟部長還有副市長來討論有關於台中地院出現中國律師這件事情我想兩位應該都知道發生了什麼事嘛 對吧就是那個中國律師的那個就是一個出庭的一個民事案件"},{"start":4587.882,"end":4607.901,"text":"台中地檢署這次對於中國律師雖然有收錢但是因為沒有辦法認定他是出於營利目的去辦理這個訴訟案件所以是不起訴簡單來說是這樣子但是我認為這個樣子的認定真的是合理嗎這待會想要跟大家來請教因為現在根據這個公開資料這個律師其實已經收了五萬塊人民幣"},{"start":4608.982,"end":4622.774,"text":"而且不是一次收完是分階段收那這個收呢還是照這個案件的進度來收所以呢這其實跟這個案件最終有沒有處理完有一個非常高度的連結可是呢如果他今天說他只是一個法務諮詢那為什麼訴訟會跟收錢的進度綁得這麼緊"},{"start":4627.495,"end":4651.607,"text":"所以我認為這次不起訴最大的問題是在於檢方看這件事情呢其實是看得太表面只有看名稱這件事情因為對方只要把錢寫成是法律顧問費那檢方就認為這不是盈利的意圖但是民間其實有非常多的律師也認為說那以後是不是就質疑說以後是不是說任何說自己任何一個沒有律師資格的人只要把錢不要把錢"},{"start":4652.567,"end":4678.124,"text":"寫成律師費改寫成顧問費法務費或其他的名目都可以躲掉律師法的處罰呢那這樣子律師法127條到底還有什麼意義所以我想喔這個雖然說過去有很多號稱法律專業的委員或者是說民間有一些詐團律師是摧毀了大家對法律的信任但是我相信還是有非常非常多法律專業的人應該是被好好的保障"},{"start":4679.005,"end":4694.432,"text":"那我想請教一下部長跟副司長的意見如果說我們今天在這件事情在不起訴的邏輯上那未來一個沒有我國律師的資格只要掛上法務顧問各種名義他都可以來參與的話那這樣子是不是直接幫非法職業開後門呢"},{"start":4697.859,"end":4714.216,"text":"謝謝委員的一個詢問那我想這是一個台中地檢署是一個個案的一個處理那當然以法務部的立場我們對個案我們是不干涉不介入不知道的因為個案的話應該依照證據依照法律上的一個見解法律上的規定來"},{"start":4715.362,"end":4743.535,"text":"來判斷來做一個判斷那所以這部分他那個結論當然我因為我沒辦法去干涉個案所以我只能尊重台中地檢檢察官的個案的一個判斷那另外剛才我也有提到那個律師法127條的那個問題那事實上那個意圖盈利這一部分當然關鍵是有意圖盈利就是說他是不是在這個訴訟的一個事件裡面他是不是有另外的收賄的一個問題當作那個律師執行律師會用的一個報酬"},{"start":4744.215,"end":4767.422,"text":"那這部分 那的確 那顯然就是有啊那個我們就講實務上的一個見解就是說行為人若意圖藉由受任辦理個別訴訟事件 個別啦 個案啦而取得相當執行律師業務的報酬那當然這個就是有對價啦這就是有對價 那我想這是實務上的見解那今天司法院民視廳廳長他們來 我想"},{"start":4772.904,"end":4798.724,"text":"待會我也會請教他 邵家庭 司法院他們也有他們這個案件是在台中地院的一個民事的一個事件 那個法官是給有允許他來當訴訟代理沒關係 待會我會問司法院啦 所以我這樣聽起來就是說法務部對於這樣子的一個 我尊重他 當然他這個見解他這個有司法院他們的那個法院的一個實務上的見解剛才我跟委員報告 這都是法院的實務上的一個見解"},{"start":4799.825,"end":4819.139,"text":"這個可以做一個參考 這個見解是司法院他們的見解沒關係 部長我知道了 對我待會會問司法院 我剛剛也有說所以我現在是要做個結論就是說聽起來就是說你們對於這樣子的態度就是尊重啦沒有覺得這樣子 你們就覺得就是尊重因為那個個案我...沒關係我知道了 那我們請司法院我們請司法院"},{"start":4829.099,"end":4848.448,"text":"我想了解一下司法院對這件事情的看法我認為法院在這次對於非訴訟代理人的資格審查上面可能沒有把關好了在網路上面一查就知道這個律師其實是在中國職業很多年的律師本來就是長期從事法律的工作知道了台灣法院他又說自己是奧地利公司的員工"},{"start":4849.548,"end":4866.327,"text":"因為他拿不出充分清楚而且讓人家信服的一個證明文件所以我想問一下是說我們到底在法院上的制度上面有沒有可以事先釐清或是實質審查的部分還是我們會等到他先進入程序之後有人執意的時候才又提出來才來處理呢"},{"start":4868.508,"end":4884.517,"text":"報告委員 目前實務的操作是有法跟執法的依據民宿訴訟法的第68條只要是非律師他要擔任受委任的訴訟代理人 要經過審判長許可"},{"start":4886.218,"end":4915.492,"text":"那因此有一個授權執法規叫民事事件委任非律師為送帶領的許可準則那這時候審判長他就必須有相當的調查或者是相當的一個一個審佐的義務啦齁那這裡面第二條第三條都有明定剛剛委員垂詢的那幾個問題所以制度面是有但是呢就是委員問到怎麼去精進這個因為大家都看到沒有查明他是"},{"start":4916.536,"end":4917.384,"text":"中國大陸的律師"},{"start":4918.82,"end":4947.67,"text":"因為這樣看起來好像就是變成是審判長當天各個自己來判斷的感覺啦是對所以我們只是在想說因為其實這民間其實有非常多我相信你們一定都有收到民間律師的一些意見對於這件事情的基本上是質疑啦所以我想就是說因為他們也會擔心說這會不會變成境外人士用這個方式來鑽漏洞所以我認為這件事情應該必須要來強化我們對於外國的律師來台灣從事法律事務的一個監管機制"},{"start":4947.99,"end":4970.351,"text":"特別是如果外國律師要來台灣執行業務的時候呢都必須要登記加入這個律師公會所以我想了解一下就是說我了解那個司法院我想再請教法務部所以對於這件事情的話法務部你們對於這個目前的制度問題上面還有入境審查身份認定等等的有沒有一些具體的強化方案呢"},{"start":4971.277,"end":4996.714,"text":"那的確是因為法務部是律師法的一個主管的一個機關我們是主管的一個機關那當然我們全立會他對這部分他是認為還要再加強監管就像委員是講的那我想這個議題是非常的一個重要那因為這個有跨部會的問題因為不是只有法務部只是法規的單純就還有陸委會我知道所以我是說你們接下來會來跟相關部會來做檢討嗎我們再來做一個一個一個研議"},{"start":5002.258,"end":5007.363,"text":"來做一個規劃處理區塊這樣聽起來就是說部長也願意來跟我們相關的部會主管來討論如何檢討強化這個機制嘛對不對那大概什麼時候我們可以來追蹤相關的進度呢需要多久的時間"},{"start":5022.557,"end":5036.686,"text":"我們是不是三個月好不好三個月喔那因為這個跨部會不是只有本部的事情好了那我希望三個月前後我們可以這個可能要到行政院可能還要到應該這個應該是你們可以先有一個出你們一定會有一個先出稿嘛"},{"start":5037.734,"end":5063.42,"text":"那那個我們再先召會召會我們還要再三個月吧好不好我們三個月要有這個相關的進度好嗎我們再跟委員報告好那接下來下一個部分是有關於1052條的這個有關於這一次我們講說夫妻如果五年內分居累積達三年的話就可以向法院訴請離婚那我想要具體的請教一下部長就是說"},{"start":5064.98,"end":5087.628,"text":"這個分居的計算到底是什麼是沒有住在一起就算還是要完全沒有共同生活就算那如果說有人因為工作嘛現在有人就是在兩地工作嘛沒有住在一起或是有人要照顧家長啊照顧長輩啦或是照顧小孩啊他們沒有住在一起那這樣到底算不算分居啊這個定義上面到底算不算這部分我請那個市長來回答"},{"start":5092.799,"end":5110.366,"text":"報告委員 目前我們民法雖然對分居這兩個字是沒有定義但是在相關的法治裡面分居是常見的文字而且在一般社會通念上是容易理解的那我們還是回到夫妻之間因為我們現在寫是持續分居不是寫持續分居 我們是寫五年內累積分居三年"},{"start":5114.708,"end":5134.902,"text":"那累積是其實我們要處理 倒不是說今天租一起 明天沒租一起 後天要租一起這種零散的狀態 我們真正要處理的是可能會有數段 比如說可能是一年或是一年半累積起來在五年累積起來之後 加起來超過三年的一個狀況所以法院要開始計算日子是嗎計算日子"},{"start":5135.402,"end":5161.493,"text":"其實這不管採連續制或是採所謂的累積制都會有這個問題因為我們的立法方向是只要那一天是處於無正當理由而為共同居住的狀況可能就是跟實務上所講的不均那不好意思喔 市長我想請教一個狀態我想請教就是說因為我們把這個表面上看起來是要放寬離婚的自由啦對不對但是事實上如果有一些比較經濟強勢的他本來就可以住外面嘛 對不對"},{"start":5162.273,"end":5189.124,"text":"那他住外面然後他可以在因為他更有資源那這樣會不會造成那些相對比較弱勢因為他可能要顧小孩他沒有辦法搬出去住的人而因此被離婚呢這有沒有可能呢因為在你現在講的是他如果去計算的話那他相對來說他不想跟他一起住啊他出去自己外面住那這種會不會造成經濟弱勢的人反而是在一個不利處境呢這個採 無論採連續制或是採累積制都會有這個問題啦"},{"start":5190.865,"end":5219.5,"text":"那至於說因為有沒有分居有沒有或是所謂不同居其實是一個互相的狀態啦至於說請求的時候會不會有顯示公平我們在1052草案的第二項單數裡面其實有一個苛刻或者是所謂的顯示公平的條款去調解這種可能會產生極端不公平的狀況不好意思我想好我懂你的意思了因為我覺得這個可能在實務上法院上面到底要如何判我覺得也是在舉證上面會不會有一些問題我想請教一下司法院"},{"start":5220.92,"end":5238.997,"text":"對於這樣子的一個現在要做累積製然後對於在你們一到這個修法之後你們要去計算大家是不是分居多少時間這在你們食物上面會不會有什麼樣子的難度你們對這個法條的看法是什麼"},{"start":5240.038,"end":5259.559,"text":"是跟委員報告本院有多次的研究跟收集外國立法例那麼認為說這個以持續這個分區就是說以持續的客觀不同住達到一定的年限我們現在把它定這樣那各國立法例都是"},{"start":5260.26,"end":5286.322,"text":"持續一直繼續狀態中那麼因為這當中如果有剛剛委員舉例的那事實它會發生主觀跟客觀怎麼認定非常難所以國外我們找到的立法例幾乎都是以連續不同住的這樣客觀事實所以不是像現在這樣子可能有一段時間沒有住在一起有一段時間沒有住在一起是這樣子嗎所以國外跟我們現在立法的方向是不太一樣的"},{"start":5286.562,"end":5313.588,"text":"在國外不會這樣子在國外如果當中有中斷就不算了都是持續兩年或持續三年來入侵所以你們司法院目前對於這樣子的方向是意見不同的 對嗎我們是提出這樣的建議啦 謝謝好 了解喔 因為我想這還是會回到到底法院上可不可以實務的執行嘛好 了解囉好 謝謝那再回到 抱歉我再問最後一題就好就是再回到法務部"},{"start":5314.707,"end":5321.861,"text":"抱歉那我還有一個說法也是對於就是說我們在這一次的1115跟1116條裡面我們把"},{"start":5325.956,"end":5353.522,"text":"這個尊卿杯跟杯卿鼠尊卿鼠跟杯卿鼠拉得太近了讓我擔心是會讓未成年子女應該有擁有的優先保障權反而變得不夠清楚所以我也想要請教不管是部長或是副司長我想請教一下未成年子女跟長輩在法律上面的保障應該是一樣的嗎可以啊"},{"start":5355.137,"end":5373.758,"text":"謝謝委員的詮詢,按照我們相關撫養的規定,我們目前是把直系血清被清除,是放在同一個區域,跟尊親屬一樣放在同一個區域,並沒有去區分成年或未成年所以我覺得未成年一個3歲的小孩跟一個65歲的長輩在法律的保障上應該是一樣的嗎?"},{"start":5376.241,"end":5392.049,"text":"這個其實是社會輪場的判斷跟我們社會是不是有凝聚共識啦所以副市長你沒有辦法告訴我說未成年子女一個完全三歲無法工作無法自立的小孩在法律上面的保障應該回到社會輪場"},{"start":5393.169,"end":5421.758,"text":"是嗎跟委員報告我們其實不能只看這一條我們要整看撫養的規定的話所謂的撫養權利人他所受的撫養權利必須是以他不能維持生活且無謀生能力來看那當然對尊親屬有一些部分有放寬但是對於嬰兒來講的話他是絕對符合這兩款那所以他享有的撫養權利是比較強的但是你現在是放在同一個位階嗎同一個順序嗎他在117條會另外做處理我們不會只看這條我們會整個體系來看"},{"start":5424.258,"end":5446.264,"text":"所以你是說你覺得在整個體系來看的話未成年子女的保障上面其實是還有在被法律保障的對嗎你的意思是這樣嗎當然有保障他的優先保障有被保障應該是說還是會看個案的具體狀況因為未成年也分很多狀況未成年也分說他已經17歲了他可能已經在工作也沒有在就學或者是他是3歲的幼兒"},{"start":5446.684,"end":5473.901,"text":"好沒關係好我想那我就一樣請教司法院啦我一樣請教司法院對於這一個你們自己的看法又是什麼呢因為我自己會認為說把未成年的子女優先保障權其實在這個現在的這樣子的立法上是會被模糊掉的啦是那我不曉得說司法院您的看法又是什麼報告委員我可不可以請我們調辦室專門研究這一部分的法官郭法官很迅速摘要回答可以嗎好可以好謝謝"},{"start":5475.347,"end":5494.14,"text":"主席跟委員跟委員報告我們那個未成年子女的撫養義務應該要優先所以我們認為要釐清那尤其在1084條到底要怎麼適用現在116都已經成為問題了那在現在這個行政院的版本把它們放在一起更會出現我們報告上寫那種三明治的狀況而且還會只有一個減輕撫養義務的問題"},{"start":5496.582,"end":5514.197,"text":"所以我們認為這個撫養現在真的建議先不要去修它那撫養要整個檢討因為我們的撫養醫務人其實有點太廣泛了應該要這樣快一百年了應該要做一個檢討跟修正好 了解那我這樣聽起來就是說在針對於民法再一次行政"},{"start":5515.518,"end":5528.381,"text":"法務部提出的這些修法的版本好像跟司法院上面還有一些要在整合的部分那我也希望就是說兩方應該要一併的整合啦避免說修法之後我們在實務上面判決上面會造成困難好嗎謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員那接下來請沈發慧沈發慧委員 沈發慧沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧 沈發慧"},{"start":5552.196,"end":5554.477,"text":"好 那接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員好 謝謝主席有請我們政部長還有我們司法院總廳長有請部長跟總廳長部長還有廳長我想今天排這個整個案子就整個離婚這民法的一個離婚我想最主要是"},{"start":5581.577,"end":5608.756,"text":"憲判制啊 大法官會議解釋出來以後啊我們也不得不處理啦 不得不處理啊那我想今天呢 其實不是只有在談離婚啦那是談一個很根本的一個問題啊我相信各位其實都是專家所以你看今天來的職訓呢大家都不敢跟你們介紹 你知道嗎說到你們的專家的時候 大家就可以借書來論書啦但是呢 本席倒有一個想法就是說你當一個婚姻已經破裂那我們要不要讓人有尊嚴的離開"},{"start":5610.557,"end":5634.956,"text":"一個制度啦 我們現在離婚是允許的但是我們的制度的設計是也沒有辦法來保障弱勢不被犧牲啦我坦白講啦 今天排這個案子 我就認為說現在的版本 我看行政院跟司法院這邊所提的報告裡面呢其實還是有不一樣的一個地方 是會有不一樣的地方就是說現在院版呢 你也沒有給出完整的一個答案"},{"start":5635.416,"end":5656.163,"text":"所以我才這樣一直主張說趕快要來召開公聽會來全面來檢視離婚以後整個經濟制度的經濟的一個保障制度從今天我看到了不管司法院或者行政院大家談的就幾項而已嘛比如說從有責你走到破綻那你對於整個財產的一個揭露"},{"start":5657.221,"end":5682.294,"text":"舉證責任到贍養費的一個標準我看這個接下來額外比較迅速公聽完語我們就一次做完整的一個制度的一個重建那整個制度其實它是在改變的就你整個離婚制度那麼多國家在改變其實我們也經過修法那制度讓離婚制度讓它更進步但是也會碰到一個問題啊我們也不能只讓"},{"start":5684.062,"end":5700.162,"text":"能走的人走掉然後弱勢的人留在原地這樣受傷我看這個也不對那從本來啊我們整個離婚制度是說本來是講說誰有誰不對誰有錯啊他現在變成說變得越來越寬鬆了就變成說"},{"start":5701.743,"end":5723.409,"text":"才破綻主義啦,你們就沒辦法做事啦,就隨人追求自己的幸福,那就可以了所以國際上的一個趨勢其實也很清楚,多數國家都逐步從過失走向婚姻是否實質的一個破裂啦那當然也去搭配了整個分居事實作為判斷的一個標準,跟一些刻苦的一個條款,就是說鬆綁啦"},{"start":5726.17,"end":5748.693,"text":"但是弱勢還是要去保護可是我發現一個問題司法院跟法務部這個地方針對於剩餘財產的一個分配對於離婚弱勢配偶的一個保障我看完以後我一直在想一個問題就是說我們現在的規定現行制度是否真的有用"},{"start":5750.305,"end":5755.712,"text":"有沒有辦法發揮它的作用有沒有辦法發揮它的作用你譬如說我們民法1030條1030條之3剩餘財產的保全措施的部分我們跟他講就說你這裡如果"},{"start":5765.325,"end":5784.27,"text":"你如果在法定財產至關稽消滅前五年內你處分貨財產的位我會想你給他動作 給他財產追加來做一個計算就變成形成是一種數字上的一個概念而已那實務上裡面大家在看這些問題的時候會講說資訊"},{"start":5787.031,"end":5803.896,"text":"不對稱啦有時候要撐起來你也沒辦法啦有時候也有一些反效果啦就自認為說我財產比較多的一方我擔心被反向去評分所以我也要去做一個注定啦所以現在行政院的修法裡面要求增訂的是財產清澈希望說可以請求他方提出財產清澈跟"},{"start":5809.81,"end":5831.889,"text":"以證明文件 以強化夫妻財產揭露的義務並落實剩餘財產分配請求權那司法院認為 你十萬年以來沒必要廳長我看了你們司法院的報告那是不是請法務部或者說司法院向社會大眾來做一個說明你們的差距在什麼地方 是不是 總廳長你來講一下"},{"start":5837.962,"end":5858.797,"text":"市長有關財產揭露的義務現在所針對的第二項 第一個欠缺比較具體的揭露內容第二個就是各項的明目 第二個欠缺了法定失權的效果他如果不提出有什麼失權效"},{"start":5859.798,"end":5882.905,"text":"那反而回到現行家事訴訟有夫妻可以提一個非送請求他提出財產的報告那這個不提出的話我們依照家事訴訟准用民訴就讓他失去那個所謂的效果來讓另一方得到那個利益這是我們第一個的想法"},{"start":5883.405,"end":5908.262,"text":"那第二個就是說這個部分因為他著重兩個立法目的第一個夫妻財產揭露的義務是要在這個平等權之下來落實就是雙方就財產的知悉權但第二個立法理由裡面有講到說他是也是屬於剩餘財產部分的一個公平的一個解決的一個方案讓他提出來結果呢我們剛剛委員有有有講了"},{"start":5913.965,"end":5938.975,"text":"之一 那陸續裡面他都有提出這樣的義務 審判長也有會議之前命他提出那麼這個是我們目前的思考但我們覺得這一條就是剛剛的10571022的這個可以 如果要那應該列到這個所謂的剩餘財產這一部分去這是以上我們的思考 謝謝"},{"start":5940.089,"end":5968.457,"text":"所以我看司法案件的意思就是說如果對方不提出或者隱匿甚至造假法律效果的保温就是說要再加進去再加進去之後再加計算這個婚禍的財產的保温其實剛剛廳長所提到這個部分比如說明確化配合財產報告義務的範圍行使方式跟違反的一個效果譬如說婚禍財產的項目數額財產所在地變動情況這些原因我的一本席的意思就是說"},{"start":5969.986,"end":5980.732,"text":"你司法院跟行政院 就是說我們應該再加一個 想想這個弱勢的配偶有沒有其他保障的一個機制啊重感就是這樣"},{"start":5982.326,"end":6001.041,"text":"我們認為還是院版的那個有節流義務因為我的意思就是我們不要只有宣示性這個要我認為是要有實質要定在實體法上那剛才司法院的看法那是屬於訴訟事件已經離婚事件裡面才有這樣的一個適用那我們是定在實體法上實體法上"},{"start":6002.642,"end":6025.877,"text":"不但是有打那個官司啦 離婚訴訟啦齁其實在一個離婚的話我們認為只要有碰到這個問題就要有提出了揭露的義務我認為這個對一個弱勢的一個離婚配偶這才有一個保障這才會落實一個勝於財產分配請求的一個公平性這才能真正保障弱勢的一個配偶啦是 我看整個修法裡面"},{"start":6027.493,"end":6042.045,"text":"這當然去參考其他全世界國際上各個國家的禮婚制度的一個修正台灣去跟上那當然是對的但問題就涉及到他靠北都講到錢尤其是靠北你剩餘財產嘛不然你再講到贍養費嘛像贍養費這個問題"},{"start":6046.628,"end":6073.063,"text":"這個制度其實以現在來看的話是幾乎是嚴重的一個失靈那院版的修法裡面確實是在往比較更正確的一個方向我現在就不只是我現在不給你局限裁判離婚我現在連協議離婚或是法案去調解和解各種法定的離婚方式全部都可以去請求了但問題來了等於說贍養費那到底是什麼如果你把它當成是一種婚姻期間的一個貢獻對他的一個補償的話"},{"start":6075.825,"end":6088.389,"text":"那好啦,那我們為什麼又再規定說再婚以後他喪失贊養會的一個請求權這個就奇怪了,所以我不知道你們這裡的看法聽眾你們看完了嗎?聽到嗎?"},{"start":6092.472,"end":6112.019,"text":"我說這個贍養費啦贍養費譬如說為什麼要給這個贍養費夫妻之一方要給離婚都變為贍養費就是說你對這個婚姻就有貢獻嘛時時有貢獻嘛可是我們現在修法又講說有貢獻所以給你贍養費可是呢你又去走向另外一段婚姻的時候又消滅掉了"},{"start":6114.2,"end":6127.669,"text":"報告委員這個分兩個部分一個部分大家剛剛都論述了一個就是所謂的補償性質一個就是撫養性質那因為參佐世界國新的立法例他一直強調"},{"start":6128.59,"end":6146.155,"text":"就是選擇這個所謂的一個裁量所謂的乾淨離婚就是讓這個家庭穩定社會穩定所以就不要再去跟前婚姻有所糾葛那是採取這樣不過在這個"},{"start":6147.875,"end":6172.993,"text":"補償性質的部分如果在剩餘財產其他部分都沒有補償其實我們研究的結果它真的是如果設計這樣是沒有所謂的這個對婦女所謂一切不歧視平等這部分似乎有待再斟酌了真的喔 我也認為啦所以我來 我趕快這個法因為憲判制也出來了"},{"start":6173.613,"end":6195.384,"text":"那確實是行政院這個地方法務部這個地方我們也該有所作為按照憲法法庭的一個指示我們趕快來完成這一步的一個法律的重新的一個修正我看我再來做一個公聽讓整個制度讓他聽聽各方的一個意見讓這個制度去往前走你看今天大家講的時候大家意見會有所不一樣可是問題這是"},{"start":6197.106,"end":6210.896,"text":"就聽聽司法院 聽聽法務部 聽聽法學專家專家來喔 十幾個高級政策都不一樣但面對這整個制度的一個變革我相信應該大家來共同來想出一個解方啦好 謝謝"},{"start":6225.319,"end":6229.06,"text":"好 謝謝那我們下一位有請翁曉琳委員好 謝謝主席在這裡有請鄭部長先請鄭部長好 有請鄭部長委員好部長好 我們好久不見了上個禮拜四本席這個安排的考察"},{"start":6255.037,"end":6271.684,"text":"怎麼可以臨時爽約呢這不是因為那個有那個其他的會議我想臨時爽約就是我們都已經全部安排好了你看連我們的零千級委員都買了那個車票提前都到了"},{"start":6272.952,"end":6291.491,"text":"花蓮然後你這樣臨時爽我們約喔這個不應該啦好不好不應該啦我沒有同意啊重點是我沒有同意好了而且呢這個基本上我們的當時安排已經是一個禮拜之前就已經講了對然後你是呢前一刻"},{"start":6292.612,"end":6306.467,"text":"我們要這個第二天要去考察然後你前一刻五點鐘才告訴我們說你要請假不能去對不對這樣的話基本上就是我跟妳講部長妳在這邊跟我們道歉我也就接受了對不對"},{"start":6310.564,"end":6337.759,"text":"現在竟然可以這麼不尊重立法院召委所安排的這個考察行程不過就是說我們上次的考察沒成功可是沒有成行我們基本上還會繼續再排考察我希望就是部長以後要尊重立法院司委會這裡的這個安排我們不是不盡人情但是這樣臨時耍我們基本上是很不應該的那接下來我想請教就是我們法務部的"},{"start":6339.223,"end":6359.981,"text":"這個正次黃謀信最近他已經被行政院提名要當中選會的委員我想請教部長在過去有沒有這個案例啊有沒有這個前例就是我們法務部的次長及以上人物曾經有被戒掉曾經有去當中選會的委員"},{"start":6362.523,"end":6379.908,"text":"這個是沒有潛力沒有潛力那這時候怎麼會有這樣的一個安排我想這個是一個堅韌的一個委員那我想這個對我們法務部的那個業務推動應該是沒有影響而且提供法律上的一個專業的一個意見"},{"start":6382.461,"end":6401.215,"text":"所以認為說他這樣子的這個去擔任中選會委員不會影響到法務部的業務嗎因為這次請那個我們黃某信次長因為他法學的我想委員都很清楚他法學非常的精湛那而且他沒有黨派他沒有黨派的"},{"start":6403.106,"end":6407.849,"text":"那當然如果說 今天金匯檢察官你說要去調查他們有履屬檔期嗎他現在不是檢察官 他現在是次長是我知道 對對對那我想他是因為他檢察官出身嘛我意思講說其實去看這個之後可能要不要也請你們提供給我們資料就是現在法務部"},{"start":6420.376,"end":6439.11,"text":"底下所屬的檢察官然後呢有多少人是有正式加入黨政黨的我們現在應該基本上沒有嘛現在那個法官法我們是完全是不能參加政黨的所以這個沒有黨派的黃國興市長他肯定是沒有加入任何的這個政黨不過我這邊是要講的一個議題就是說是因為呢今天這個新聞裡面也有在講國安會的這個"},{"start":6448.959,"end":6455.623,"text":"就是國安會的諮詢委員準備要找一位檢察官去當法務助理那當然這個新聞報導之後就輿論嘩然這個為什麼要再調判一位檢察官"},{"start":6468.57,"end":6483.846,"text":"去這個國安會可是呢本席其實有看到法務部所發布的新聞稿那麼事實上好像是不是長久以來就是法務部都會借掉一位檢察官去派駐在國安會呢"},{"start":6484.246,"end":6513.815,"text":"沒有沒有這回事那個各位的報告我們那個檢查全部就調辦室就是在法務部調辦室但是因為我們大概每個都有分工就譬如說有人是打詐的有些是毒品的有些是附幼的有些是國安的因為法務部也是屬於國安的一個安全體系的一環就像我們那個國家安全法啦反滲透法啦還有一些的包括我們偵辦的一些的譬如說那個營業秘密法或者是一些像某些科技公司的那些"},{"start":6514.295,"end":6525.6,"text":"所以這些要去我們是扮演一個協助各機關在國安的安全體系的我想今天大家比較關注的那個焦點就是說這個絕世的誤會所以我沒有發新聞澄清調辦的這位檢察官那他到底他的辦公地點在哪裡在保護部這個我請檢察司副司長來答這個有在規劃來請告訴我們"},{"start":6543.036,"end":6556.362,"text":"報告委員我們尋程序還有因為是我們的業務需求所以針調那個甲官到部裡面來辦事那我們有規劃他的那個辦公的空間所以那位甲官過來的時候辦公室是在甲四的辦公室所以他的正式的名稱叫做什麼他的職務的名稱調辦事主任甲官"},{"start":6558.928,"end":6587.588,"text":"是叫法務部檢察司國安會的辦事不是就是介調法務部的調辦事主任檢察官介調法務部的調辦事主任檢察官所以他的辦公地點並不是在國安會但是他的業務就是去支援國安會不是他的業務是跟國安法制相關的不是資源是國安法制就負責比方說國安的相關的法制啊或者是像經濟間諜罪啊然後就是海蘭七法軍事審判法就是跟國安相關的法制內容"},{"start":6588.783,"end":6600.834,"text":"好那麼如果說是這樣子的情況之下的話我希望就是法務部也要在這個你們檢察官的體系裡面要把這些事情講清楚因為這個事情看起來是從你們檢察官的內網裡面所這個踢爆這個新聞"},{"start":6605.959,"end":6622.078,"text":"而且看起來大部分的檢察官也許並不知道否則的話怎麼會有說是去當這個國安會諮詢委員林志傑的法務助理那這樣子的一個情況事實上是就代表說可能法務部自己內部的溝通也有也出現了問題這個他不知道說到底為什麼會有這樣的一個"},{"start":6627.083,"end":6654.706,"text":"處理的方式所以這部分其實我們是這部分是有公告的喔是有公告的寫得非常清楚那我想這部分既然外界所以我們正式發信法寫得非常的詳細非常詳細我想說這個委員有手上有我們的新聞稿所以這部分我想問你的新聞稿對那當然就從這個議題裡面呢我這接下來我要延伸的就是說是我也希望能夠了解到底現在這個檢察署有多少的人力是戒掉"},{"start":6655.487,"end":6684.559,"text":"或是借調到各個機關或借調到法務部的人力也就是調辦室的檢察官有多少那所以也請法務部你們可以在一個禮拜之內可以提供給我相關的資訊過去五年調辦室檢察官有多少要調任的期間以及分布在哪些單位然後法務部有沒有派駐在國安會的人員名冊如果按照剛剛部長講似乎是沒有派駐在國安會的人員名冊好 那麼最後我要在這個議題上面我想要講就是說因為基層的"},{"start":6685.439,"end":6702.316,"text":"地檢署基本上大家工作量都非常大然後大多數的檢察官都過勞所以呢大家也會去思考就是說到底現在這個調辦室的制度檢察官借調的制度到底合不合理那我也希望法務部這邊能夠通盤檢討"},{"start":6704.438,"end":6731.196,"text":"畢竟在早期這個段宜康民進黨的立委段宜康他當時曾經也批評過那時候的時任法務部部長羅瑩雪說檢察官的借調制度混亂那麼也批評就是說不可以把這個就政府執政黨不可以把檢察官當成是法務助理這樣會糟蹋司法官那本席希望說鄭部長你可以把這個議題好好的去這個檢討好不好"},{"start":6734.618,"end":6755.669,"text":"我想這個謝謝委員的一個指導那我想包括司法院我們都是因為這個是包括司法的這是相當的一個專業那的確是要有調辦事比如說涉犯調法官去辦事因為有些是法案的問題這部分檢察官也是法案的問題這個都非常的專業高度的專業那這部分的話就麻煩請你跟我一個資料我們之後有機會的話我們再來討論那接下來我可能還要再請那個中廳長"},{"start":6767.086,"end":6793.327,"text":"這個本席基本上有注意到這次其實司法院對於修正院的這個民法親屬篇的修正案其實有很多的不同的意見包含像1052條的分居的定義1057條的贍養費還有撫養義務102條的提出採採清澈等等這些規定那麼有些是認為說我們的意見有些是認為說是跌床架屋目前的規定其實已經夠處理了所以草案還有很多要討論的地方"},{"start":6793.807,"end":6807.663,"text":"那接下來本席想要請教的兩個問題第一個就是說在目前的夫妻財產揭露義務的執行上面行政院版基本上他的夫妻財產揭露義務主要是還是focus比較聚焦在所謂的傳統的財產型的義務"},{"start":6810.478,"end":6816.043,"text":"那麼可是我們知道現在的這個財產已經不限制於是傳統的財產還包含所謂的虛擬財產所以對於虛擬財產的部分呢未來是不是可以把它列為就是在財產清澈上面必須要公開的項目以及在目前實務上面到底虛擬貨幣虛擬財產有沒有列入剩餘財產這個部分不曉得可不可以請中廷長來回答"},{"start":6834.6,"end":6850.706,"text":"像委員報告在我們實務家事法庭審判有關剩餘財產分配如果這種虛擬貨幣足以確認計算或請專家鑑定它的價值在實務一律都是列入可分配的財產"},{"start":6852.526,"end":6857.888,"text":"至於說在法律上要不要徵定怎麼徵定那我們很尊重主管機關的一個徵定可不可以請部長針對這個議題就是未來我們在夫妻揭露財產義務的這個財產在夫妻財產揭露義務之下我們要去"},{"start":6871.873,"end":6898.269,"text":"公開這個財產清澈是不是應該要放入虛擬資產你認為這部分是不是應該要加入因為這是一個新型態的一個財產的一個佈置嘛那我想這個我們沒有去排除虛擬資產因為虛擬資產還是財產包括我們那個財產申報都包括虛擬的資產是 但是就是說因為在這次法條上面沒有講得很清楚那這不就是這個在我們那個這個未來是不是可以在修正動力的時候立法說明來處理這個區塊"},{"start":6900.31,"end":6914.166,"text":"所以在立法說明裡面有加入這個虛擬財產嗎可以加入那個立法說明裡面如果說你們也同意這個方向當然本席也可以提案提到時候提一個修正動議可以把虛擬財產也放入到就是為了要公開的財產計算裡面因為財產包括實體財產跟虛擬的資產嘛那這邊我們在立法說明這邊把它"},{"start":6919.772,"end":6939.879,"text":"那再明確化 讓我們這更沒有爭議好 那最後一個議題我想就是針對所謂的分居這次其實司法院對於法務部所提案的有關於分居的規定也有不同的意見那目前行政院的法務部版本的徵定所謂的分居條款是五年之內要累計分居達三年才可以肅請離婚"},{"start":6943.92,"end":6948.665,"text":"那司法院的草案則是認為說要不分居就是連續不分居達三年而且在繼續狀態當中然後才可以肅請離婚那麼其實針對這個部分因為這也涉及到實務上的判斷的問題本席基本上是比較支持司法院的一個看法"},{"start":6960.839,"end":6987.184,"text":"那麼我也想了解就是說行政院的版本認為說這個分居五年之內累計分居達三年你們這個是到底是要去怎麼去定義怎麼去計算那個期間到底是指的是物理上的分開處還是說他主觀上面我沒有維持婚姻的義務我可能在同一個屋簷下但是是分房這樣就算是分居而且中間有時好時壞怎麼樣去累計那個三年的時間"},{"start":6994.127,"end":7010.576,"text":"其實我們在定義這五年內累積滿三年的時候我們是試圖建立一個客觀的標準這有參考德國因為德國他也是要有一個分開的推定前三年以上他就推定婚姻不能維持只是說我們更進一步因為我們是目標是要朝向破產主義讓他比較好證明"},{"start":7013.317,"end":7027.186,"text":"因為連續這個事情其實是比較難證明的反之它很容易被反正推翻所以我們用了比較對於婚姻裡面破綻維持上面比較能夠維護破綻主義精神的機制不過事實上你這樣講的話其實也涉及到舉證的問題可能到時候雙方當事人會有意見不一樣的地方接下來我想請教鍾廷長就是說在食物上面來講有沒有類似你們現在做的這個相關的食物的判決裡面"},{"start":7041.215,"end":7050.283,"text":"那麼有沒有類似這種對於累計計算分居的期間三年然後你就認為說這個其實已經構成報告委目前如果以這個破綻在舉證的時候通常這個律師雙方公訪難免有但是非常難舉證因為"},{"start":7063.214,"end":7078.15,"text":"有為子女而住在一起去可能是一個月兩個月那有為工作有為其他就像剛剛說的分房所以最終這種訴訟最後都很難認定所以產生這個訴訟上的困擾跟律師舉證的困難"},{"start":7080.472,"end":7106.245,"text":"是因為這也是本席認為說這其實在實務上可能會造成這個判斷上面的困難那這邊的話我本席也會有另外一個建議也可以請法務部去思考因為其實在歐美國家他們基本上有些會採取所謂登記制度分居的登記制度那法務部當時沒有去思考嘛譬如說像現在丹麥挪威等等這些國家他們會在網站上面先申請一個分居"},{"start":7108.126,"end":7129.223,"text":"有一個申請分居登記那分居期滿譬如說六個月或一年之後就可以正式的申請離婚那我覺得分居制度至少還有個客觀的這個第三人的一個公正的一個制度這樣的話未來在訴請裁判離婚的時候也比較有一個好的證明你們沒有往這方面去思考嗎這部分我請那個市長來好請市長 是"},{"start":7136.854,"end":7156.96,"text":"報告委員我們在這次密碼修正到底要不要放一個有關所謂的法定別居或法定分居制度其實在研究小組是有討論過不過因為這部分意見非常分散沒辦法形成共識那因為這次我們的修法主要還是迫切的要因應我們限盤制還有C的要求所以這部分我們之後會再通盤檢討如果實際有成熟我們會再繼續研議"},{"start":7159.701,"end":7184.876,"text":"好 那我也想請中廳長司法院這邊的意見如果說是未來採取分居登記制度會不會對於你們要審理相關的裁判離婚的案件會更有幫助是 報告委員有關這樣一個登記制度是在外國的立法例我們在研究跟蒐集上還有專家諮詢都有論述跟我們法務部的陳述我們是一樣的但是如果從實務面的研究"},{"start":7185.396,"end":7213.75,"text":"它是如果我們建立制度的健全是在訴訟上是反而也是非常更有更有明確的一個裁判基礎但是呢我國民請的關係因為你去登記以後然後後面的一個分居常常會造成又有舉證上的一個歧義跟困擾所以這有待這個整合來研究看怎麼我們沒有反對也會尊重主管機關的意見謝謝"},{"start":7214.81,"end":7236.783,"text":"因為這個本席基本上會認為說我們現在離婚結婚都採登記制度那麼如果說是分居未來能夠採登記制度的話可能也可以就是讓未來有相關的這個這個爭議案件的時候呢法院會更好處理這是本席的看法好的那今天本席質詢到這邊然後也謝謝主席寬容給我更多的時間來來詢答謝謝謝謝"},{"start":7242.557,"end":7244.778,"text":"那接下來我們有請范雲委員謝謝雅琳代主席有請鄭部長有請鄭部長委員好"},{"start":7263.436,"end":7278.074,"text":"部長好我們今天是關於民法離婚的相關修法很明確其實這幾年因為我來自婦女團體婦女團體的立場都是如果今天離婚真的已經無法避免的話"},{"start":7278.815,"end":7306.16,"text":"那如何在制度上盡量能夠讓雙方好聚好散然後保障未成年子女的權益還有第三點就是弱勢的配偶如何給他合理的保障所謂的弱勢從我們的角度來講就是是因為婚姻犧牲職涯發展然後跟經濟機會的一方所以今天我是蠻肯定那今天我們的召委排審"},{"start":7307,"end":7324.903,"text":"因為這個法案非常的重要剛剛莊瑞雄召委說要開公聽會我也非常的支持因為我覺得有更多專業的討論可能會讓我們這一次的修法能夠一次把它做好我自己從2021年開始就跟婦女團體一起努力"},{"start":7325.484,"end":7352.507,"text":"那希望聚焦在完善離婚後的經濟保障制度那這邊是從2021年就來我們司法委員會質詢那2025年我們還開記者會支持弱勢的母親的經濟自主希望離婚的法制能大改革那去年6月我也提出了我的版本那不知道法務部是不是記得本月初我的質詢有肯定院版有三項突破"},{"start":7353.513,"end":7382.306,"text":"第一個是不只是無過失能請領贍養費那第二個是不只是判決離婚能夠請領贍養費那第三個是正是因為婚姻生育家庭而減少的就業機會 指壓發展經濟能力那但是我上次也跟法務部提出我覺得你們的修法你們的版本有三個未盡之處就是第一個沒有移除原本的生活陷於困難的要件"},{"start":7383.266,"end":7407.479,"text":"第二個就是再婚就不能夠繼續請領贍養費那第三個是離婚財產的分配沒有納入職業年金那上次我有告訴你們為什麼會這樣主張那十年間根據婦女薪資基金會的研究被法院判決可以准贍養費的十年之間只有21件"},{"start":7409.674,"end":7430.581,"text":"那跟各個國家比起來都是非常非常低的所以這一次如何讓贍養費真的可以領到而且是合理的非常的重要那部長可以回應我說上次我又請你們回去針對這個要移除生活限於困難做研究那你們研究的情況如何了"},{"start":7431.716,"end":7447.045,"text":"各位報告有統計數字符合生活限於困難的要件雖然是少但還是多少過去法院判決符合生活限於困難"},{"start":7448.485,"end":7471.835,"text":"但是這個實務上是有判斷的一個標準有這個實例像那個最高反映有80年台上至1689這部分現有困難有這樣具體的表示意見表示說有他有實際上的一個個案那跟委員報告因為事實上我們當然是這一次的民法修復他有放寬就是說真的是是有需要就就業能力減損就業節約減少"},{"start":7473.336,"end":7502.681,"text":"但是我的重點是 上次已經質詢過你們還把生活限於困難放在那嗎我們檢討有檢視過我們認為還是有多少人判決上符合這個條件那你們沒有統計為什麼要放在那裡呢如果法院上就幾乎很少很少人能夠符合所謂的生活限於困難你放在那裡不是讓法官有機會就往那裡判了"},{"start":7503.551,"end":7532.188,"text":"這只要有舉證 如果說有離分新增這只是一種的一個類型而已那有多少這種例子因為生活困難的話跟我們就位機會減少跟就位能力減損那個是不同的一個範疇那個譬如說我是有就位能力跟就位能力但是因為我礙於譬如說我這是因為因為譬如說她是養未成年子女我沒辦法去沒有去就業"},{"start":7533.666,"end":7550.235,"text":"那沒辦法去就醫其實我的就醫能力沒有減損我的就醫界是沒有但是因為礙於我主觀的因素不是我客觀的一個我沒有這個機會所以這個線裡困難這部分我們認為還是要有當作一個善良會的一個請求的一個室友"},{"start":7550.795,"end":7572.248,"text":"鄭部長我們這裡就是要從你們的實證基礎來做討論因為法務部一直拿不出相關的統計我要講的事情就是你如果保留生活限於困難作為贍養費的勤領要件恐怕會讓這次的改革只有做一半"},{"start":7572.988,"end":7598.29,"text":"那我們是從婦女團體自己做的研究因為你們沒有研究那別人自己來幫你做研究就像我剛講的婦女新知基金會的研究十年間善養費請求判準只有21件全國只有21件喔然後85.6%的律師不建議請因為不符合生活限於困難所以已經有"},{"start":7599.071,"end":7617.437,"text":"快要九成的律師都不建議他的當事人請因為不符合那真的去請求的那個百分之十幾的律師在他們的案例中去請求的有百分之八十四點九被法官因為請求人並沒有陷於生活困難而駁回"},{"start":7619.097,"end":7636.036,"text":"所以10年內因為過去只能夠因為生活陷於困難所以10年內只有21件那你因為21件這件事情那非常多的相關的律師那他們其實會很擔心你留在那裡反而造成困擾"},{"start":7636.576,"end":7651.787,"text":"那這邊根據婦女薪資基金會的研究訪談律師說這個代號都是律師兩位律師都認為爭取贍養費會讓法院質疑當事人的撫養能力因為當事人若符合請求撫養費的生活陷於困難"},{"start":7652.984,"end":7676.935,"text":"那就不利於他爭取監護權因此在訴訟策略上一旦當事人提出申請監護權的意願的時候律師就會建議他放棄請求贍養費所以基本上你留了生活陷於困難那也對律師來講的話其實是非常不利的所以我們還是建議法務部回去好好的思考一下是不是"},{"start":7677.375,"end":7701.594,"text":"拿掉因離婚而生活陷於困難因為自證生活陷於困難也可能使得他有了贍養費就失去了監護權是當事人會陷於贍養費跟監護權二選一的這個兩難那這個是專業律師而且常常打離婚相關的律師們的建議那您如果不同意說拿出你們的數字"},{"start":7702.575,"end":7716.386,"text":"當然那個委員剛才有提到說21件當然是案件不多但是因為就是案件不多所以我們就有去討論就是說有離分時就位能力減損跟就位減少這都是一個選項這是或不是說"},{"start":7718.444,"end":7736.209,"text":"一定要再加上生活困難這是一個或或生活困難也用這個理由來申請那另外或那個如果說有就業能力部長我覺得這個東西就是要實證資料你們是法務部應該有能力做這個研究如果法官認為的生活限於困難已經是中低收入戶的話"},{"start":7737.61,"end":7758.729,"text":"當事人本來就可以尋蹤低收入戶因為10年來只有21件你們因為是生活陷於困難那你是不是拿出相關的數字再來論證它留在這因為法務部不是在處理我們是屬於民法的主管至於實務上的數據這次主管修法是你們嗎"},{"start":7762.913,"end":7769.601,"text":"那是我們是法規主管機關但是因為家事法院是司法院修法不應該拿出數據嗎判決的數據才知道這個法條留在那裡法院會怎麼判法官怎麼判這個應該沒有"},{"start":7777.89,"end":7800.805,"text":"我還是請你們研議因為你們的報告說還沒做好所以我今天就繼續來問這題好不好那聽起來就是還是沒有統計數字那我想就是婦女團體他自己做的研究然後這麼多的離婚相關的律師看到這個困境那是不是如果你堅持要放在那你要拿出數據說服我們大家好嗎"},{"start":7803.29,"end":7822.339,"text":"那還是請你拿出數據研議到底要不要移除生活限於困難好嗎因為我的時間不多了那您要答我先檢要回覆委員的槌尋第一個是上次委員槌尋只是事項我們已經回覆了可能還在辦公室可能要再確認那第二件事情是說"},{"start":7823.979,"end":7845.67,"text":"我們雖然沒有做因為我們手上沒有司法統計資料但是21件這個數據我們在報端也有看到不過我們當時有初步上網去看一下其實當初21件會這麼少人員其實很多是卡在所謂的判決這個要件以及所謂的無過失的要件倒不是生活陷於困難這個要件完全就排除掉了所以我們真的把兩大壁壘拿掉了因為離婚律師都是實戰經驗他們的當事人為什麼不建議他申請那第二點就是說為什麼離婚律師會這樣建議那是著眼於現行法"},{"start":7852.313,"end":7870.025,"text":"因為未來我們是其實會有所謂的A套餐跟B套餐你可以選擇要吃哪一個套餐A套餐就是說我是生活陷於困難類型B套餐就是我是所謂的勞動機會或是勞動能力減損的類型這兩個不會互斥那生活陷於困難如果是中低收入戶的話是不是本來就有中低收入戶的幫助重點不是在一個生活困難重點是因為我們現在的法律是採無過失的一個主義如果說採破綻主義的話我想生活困難這部分的那個案例會用這個理由"},{"start":7881.092,"end":7900.331,"text":"是不同的部分那律師還有訪談律師的婦女團體的研究他看到的是實質的部分好嗎那我想如果你要保留在那裡就要拿出數據來說服好不好這部分我們再來講好我們再仔細對話那支持那個昭偉說辦公廳會能夠一次修到好謝謝"},{"start":7903.223,"end":7927.996,"text":"好 謝謝范雲委員的詢問你看我擺這個比較專業性的來了這大家Kids都跑出來 專業的都跑出來而且這個面向真的是很多啦這個整個離婚制度啊這個確實是各個面向裡面來看的話該要去保障的地方或者要去突破的地方確實該及時管理接下來我們請鄭正前"},{"start":7932.658,"end":7940.426,"text":"鄭正前 鄭正成委員不在林佩祥 林佩祥 林佩祥委員不在接下來請最專業的徐以貞委員謝謝最專業的主席喔我們請法務部政部長請政部長"},{"start":7959.105,"end":7985.828,"text":"委員好部長好 今天就是要本期要跟您探討就是有關112年憲判制第四號的判決喔它是規定兩年內必須要修法現在已經超過了修法的時間喔那我看行政院跟司法院都有各提了版本喔來去這個解釋說分居期間到底要怎麼計算那行政院版當然寫的是五年內累積分居達三年"},{"start":7986.548,"end":8005.674,"text":"那司法院主當然是不同居已達三年且在繼續的狀態中那剛剛我想也很多委員請教您啊就是說到底要怎麼去計算尤其是目前行政院版的就是五年內累積分居已經達三年因為民法根本沒有對分居下明確的定義"},{"start":8006.514,"end":8027.908,"text":"除了客觀上的不同居之外 還要看主觀的意識是不是因為工作 或者是照顧子女然後比如說分居 但是呢分房 也許同居但分房那也有因為子女分開 有各項的爭議那請問一下 如果連分居在民法上都沒有明確的定義連分居都講不清楚的話 要怎麼計算分居的時間呢"},{"start":8029.248,"end":8056.21,"text":"當然我們現在分區的制度這個我們在民法上沒有很明確的一個規定但是我們在這個立法的一個說明就是1052條的分區事項我們有做一個說明就分區是指夫妻不繼續共同生活的一個定義當然這部分我想在個案上的話在一個計算上我想如果正當理由而是做一個分區當然不會去記錄嘛"},{"start":8057.791,"end":8075.189,"text":"那如果說是不願意附和的任期來持續的話那當然就是是屬於一個分居的一個入室的一個期間的計算那這部分我想還要帶一個我們這部分當然是跟司法院的我想司法院為什麼"},{"start":8076.89,"end":8099.107,"text":"對 為什麼他們會特別提 就是舉證上真的有困難尤其是對於不想離婚的那一方的話他可能就不會配合啊那你在分居的定義到底是什麼也說不清楚所以司法院他也舉了一個例子啊 就是說如果丈夫1月1號上午9點離家1月15號晚間9點離家這到底算14天 還是14.5天 還是15天"},{"start":8102.369,"end":8113.858,"text":"這個是司法院提的例子也就是說只要是法律適用的時候一定會碰到相關的問題那遇到這樣的問題應該要怎麼處理報告委員就這部分因為我們累積制確實是我們在營業小組會議的時候委員們的結論"},{"start":8123.886,"end":8140.55,"text":"所以跟德國是不太一樣的不過在計算所謂哪一天算是完整的一日的狀況底下其實在實務上雖然沒有完全類同的狀況但是比如說像在公財案件裡面常常會有所謂的工作日的計算那天算不算是一個工作日的計算那請問這個計算方式適用在這邊嗎"},{"start":8145.322,"end":8163.058,"text":"這部分我們會委託於實務的發展看實務者審理的彈性去發展出一個合理的計算的方式就跟工作室的累積計算所以為什麼司法院會提這樣就是說確實他們在舉證上的困難然後造成他們在審查上一定有相當的一個困難度嗎所以我認為就是在這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":8164.239,"end":8180.841,"text":"當然我個人是比較主張就是司法院的這個版本就是不同居已達三年的這個版本因為比較清楚也比較能夠操作也比較符合這個審判的這個實務那請問一下部長你覺得司法院的說法對不對你接不接受司法院的說法"},{"start":8181.321,"end":8206.85,"text":"我們還是以我們支持那個院版因為我們院版有經過了整個專家學者機關代表的充分的一個討論那結出來的一個意見那剛剛講的這個剛剛講的這些問題專家學者有提出嗎這部分有它的一個實務上的一個基礎一個實際案例的一個基礎那我想這部分當然大家可以看起來目前是沒有共識嗎是沒有共識所以我們才會所以我們那個"},{"start":8209.852,"end":8223.852,"text":"這個才會有...所以那個委...趙委員說要辦公聽會大概廣納各位的社會的...我想這看起來可能是一個小問題可是事實上會影響的程度是很大的所以我覺得可能也要我們大家再多徵詢相關的意見"},{"start":8225.314,"end":8251.627,"text":"然後另外本期要再請教您就是最近因為媒體報導就是我們的國安諮詢委員林志傑女士有意找法務部調派檢察官協助她那而且就是引起檢方的反彈那當然我知道法務部昨天也這個大動作的出了一個這個新聞稿來駁斥這樣的一個說法那我想目前我們看到報導裡面寫的是桃園地檢署的主任檢察官馬洪華已經內定擔任"},{"start":8255.67,"end":8275.71,"text":"這個職務那檢察官的人事審議委員會也要在明天就會開會討論所以這件事情到底是不是事實這個人未來會辦理什麼業務在哪裡上班聽誰的指揮謝謝委員我們那個調辦室都是要經過的一個公告的一個程序依照那個行政院的"},{"start":8276.471,"end":8296.853,"text":"限制所屬公務人員戒掉及兼職的要點來辦理的那這個上班的地點是在檢察室那我是不是請副市長來回答上班地點還是一樣在法務部在檢察室不會去國安會是這樣嗎我們調辦事就是因為因為他有負責的專責譬如說有打造有毒品的副用的"},{"start":8297.654,"end":8313.634,"text":"所以他如果負責國安他就有可能去國安會嗎他一定會跟國安的單位包括國安會陸委會經濟部等有國安的安全的一個體系所以他是負責國安相關的他負責國安的這一部分所以有可能到國安會"},{"start":8314.575,"end":8329.545,"text":"當然我一定會去開會啊當然我不是指開會喔我是說他是借調當然因為根據你們的要不然你們的新聞稿引用的是行政院限制所屬公務人員借調及戒指要點第二點嘛那既然是同一個單位為什麼要借調"},{"start":8330.889,"end":8350.803,"text":"這個因為他是檢察官所以要來辦理行政事務的當然要借調這個是依照那個我們那個借調的堅持要點來辦理的那我想這個因為這個我們那個法制在我們那個法制作業是高度的專業我想在各個基金包括司法院他們都有借調法官來辦理這些法制作業或者一些的司法的擬定嘛"},{"start":8351.724,"end":8369.16,"text":"部長的意思就是說他不會到國安會他不是在那上班啊上班但是業務一定會有那會不會到國安會裡去負責這個相關國安的業務代表法務部借調過去呢不會啊這個就是在法務部借調就是在借調在法務部上班啊"},{"start":8369.38,"end":8387.537,"text":"因為其實很多 我想很多 為什麼檢方會反彈就覺得說我們基層人力這麼短缺嘛那如果說因為這部分因為明天啦 說真的明天就會知道了嘛因為明天你們就要開會嘛那是不是馬洪華主任檢察官是不是就是內定的是不是就是真的是他明天就會知道答案嘛明天就會知道說到底是不是內定啊那我想這個委員他們就會去做一個審議"},{"start":8396.165,"end":8424.623,"text":"空穴未必来风为什么会引起这么大的反弹我觉得不能用传闻来当然不能用传闻所以我就说其实这个事情很快明天就会知道答案但我们希望说基层的检察官其实人力已经很缺乏了所以真的需要我们这个华务部的人不是只有检察官数据官包括监守的管理人我们都非常支持华务部的人力我们要打仗还要办毒品所以说"},{"start":8424.963,"end":8441.142,"text":"可能這個部分就不適合再借調出去尤其是蔡總裁部長我覺得您最近也很辛苦您的政策通通都被這個借走了包括先是徐錫祥政策去擔任最高檢察署的主任檢察官然後準備要接檢察總長"},{"start":8443.004,"end":8464.805,"text":"那接下來呢 你的另一個政次 這個黃士傑 他又要去選桃園市長現在呢 連黃謀信政次 都要去擔任中選會的主委所以 像這個部分我覺得 部長您真的很辛苦耶因為 等於說您的政次 都這樣子那看起來好像感覺是 這個 呃 保護部的政次是一個升官的跳板喔"},{"start":8465.245,"end":8471.949,"text":"只要到來擔任政策的話幾乎都有這樣子的一個過水的一個狀態那雖然過水啦那我很尊重他們職業規劃嘛那這部分謝謝委員關心對那像這樣的話政策其實它一直流動那對於您的這個法務部的業務會有什麼影響呢"},{"start":8484.656,"end":8511.127,"text":"我想這部分我們還是業務很努力去做一個推動七成人力也不足那現在連高層都這樣子一個狀況謝謝委員關心所以我其實覺得部長真的很辛苦你自己可能還得要見證詞的業務所以有些要去考察我沒辦法去參加這個也請委員來請教這是兩回事喔部長這是兩回事喔因為剛剛翁小林委員講的是說您如果"},{"start":8511.987,"end":8523.793,"text":"之前就講的話那當然站在他的立場的話他也會評估狀況可是您是當天前一天的下午五點才通知那所以說當然他不知道所以部長我想要請教您的就是說像這個部分的話我們現在其實剛剛您也講的不管是打雜啦 茶會啦大家都非常的"},{"start":8534.138,"end":8556.466,"text":"非常地辛苦嘛那現在我就說你這個一下子這個政策走一下子那個政策走那接下來的話對於我們相關的工作在法務部的這個部分你們準備怎麼樣來去去做好這個相關的工作呢我想我們就是不會就是因為次長的因為的去做其他的一個任務的一個"},{"start":8556.886,"end":8570.954,"text":"一個職務的調整或者是所以表示這個政策可能不是那麼重要那個不是這樣的我們是努力來推動那也請委員多支持我們一定支持但是呢還是請部長針對這個部分我是覺得還是我們政治還是要以穩定為主那部長的話因為最近實在是太頻繁了啦"},{"start":8580.499,"end":8590.563,"text":"你看這個黃士傑的這個缺應該還沒補吧那現在黃謀信證詞又要去這個當中選會的委員所以部長是希望我們同意黃謀信證詞擔任中選會委員嗎所以你們又少一個證詞囉他是一個兼任嘛是兼任喔兼任兼任所以他還是繼續擔任這個法務部的證詞那他這樣子會不會也有一些時間要去當中選會的委員他那個是兼任我想有開會他都一定會去嘛"},{"start":8610.53,"end":8631.725,"text":"那就是相關的業務他可能就必須要分一些時間去做這樣子的一個調整謝謝委員體諒委員這個法務部很辛苦還是請部長這個部分我當然知道您也能難處但是我們還是覺得這個如果委員知道我的難處那這部分就委員多多支持法務部業務的推動我一定支持法務部的業務但是還是請部長針對這個部分其實還是要跟上面反映一下謝謝"},{"start":8635.592,"end":8659.965,"text":"好 謝謝許宇珍委員 接下來請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在許宗信 許宗信 許宗信委員沒在羅明財 羅明財 羅明財不在賴士寶 賴士寶 賴士寶委員不在 我看這裡都不會來了"},{"start":8661.966,"end":8685,"text":"那所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢了 詢答也結束了那委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關儘速提交個別委員跟本會那委員林沛翔 蔡其昌 沈發慧 黃婕所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報 並請相關機關以書面來做答覆"},{"start":8691.824,"end":8709.76,"text":"那我想今天的會議我們就要進行到這個地方今天也非常謝謝法務部跟司法院今天都提供很專業的這一些寶貴的一個意見但是因為我們其實今天也看到司法院跟法務部這個地方意見其實"},{"start":8711.562,"end":8730.721,"text":"不一樣那不是壞事 對制度的看法會有所不同那我相信整個離婚制度的一個改進這個不是只是說保障以現在來看的話其實這個制度來看就是大家看新的方向就認為說原來這樣的一個制度"},{"start":8731.421,"end":8748.936,"text":"這個都不是在保障弱勢幾乎都是在測試你有多慘這個條文上寫的權利好像都可以保障看得到可是實行下來很多地方確實要必須要重新再修訂的一個地方很多憲判制這個大法官會議"},{"start":8750.377,"end":8766.112,"text":"的憲法法庭做這樣的一個判決那確實立法院這個地方我們必須要盡速把這個制度來做一個補齊這個離婚以後人要怎麼活我相信這個才是重點不管是資訊現在看到的不對稱舉證的困難或者贍養費門款的一個過高這個"},{"start":8770.475,"end":8782.705,"text":"我在近期之內我就要來召開一個公聽會因為今天你們來你們就很強勢你們說這個專業你們就整天在那邊說到嚇嚇叫你們要不要找個老闆來給你看這是好事讓專業來做一個對話本次會議我們進行到這個地方議程首列討論事項兩岸的均作如下決議就另定期來繼續審查現在我們散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"168814","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168814","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442021fae3aa8acb2a96e07bf52eec0dd4908965b28c46199cce391b23e5ee14c115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"11:50:05 - 11:58:54","影片長度":"00:08:49","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部就「脆弱家庭兒少支持服務及兒少保護個案處遇之跨體系協作與銜接機制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日及23日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-23","start_time":"2026-04-23T11:50:05+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-23T11:58:54+08:00","duration":529,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.37221875,"end":4.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.24534375,"end":6.156593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.172843750000002,"end":13.125968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.395968750000002,"end":64.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.52284375,"end":65.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.91096875000001,"end":79.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.11159375000001,"end":90.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.70909375000001,"end":89.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.25721875,"end":96.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.02034375000001,"end":95.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.20159375,"end":215.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.56784375000001,"end":101.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.95534375,"end":160.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.57534375,"end":162.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.06346875,"end":197.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.62596875000003,"end":223.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.19846875000002,"end":244.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.84284375000001,"end":232.09596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.11096875,"end":256.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.54784375,"end":258.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.85971875,"end":259.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.74971875,"end":262.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.96034375,"end":267.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.65596875,"end":304.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.18596875000003,"end":304.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.56971875,"end":305.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.58659375,"end":305.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.46409375,"end":316.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.93159375000005,"end":312.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.31471875,"end":327.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.45659375,"end":328.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.36784375,"end":359.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.32909375,"end":375.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.55034375,"end":375.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.93846875,"end":383.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.48159375,"end":409.31721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.19971875000005,"end":406.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.67596875000004,"end":453.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.22409375,"end":411.81471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.07159375000003,"end":415.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.71471875000003,"end":430.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.98471875,"end":431.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.98534375,"end":488.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.52346875,"end":467.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.06346875,"end":467.92409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.36659375000005,"end":471.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.71409375,"end":494.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.83971875000003,"end":508.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.01471875000004,"end":509.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.03159375,"end":520.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.86096875,"end":523.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.40096875,"end":522.3628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.0334687500001,"end":530.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.97846875,"end":525.4678437499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.695,"end":5.819,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請部長有請石部長"},{"start":10.222,"end":33.559,"text":"好 陸委員好部長今天講社工的問題那我們都知道其實社工跟醫師一樣很像都是處在高壓的狀況 正在工作而且他們的流動率居高不下 量能嚴重失衡而且風險確實是因為他的專業升級跟制度授權未能跟上現在很像變成很棘手的問題那我想請問一下 現在"},{"start":34.219,"end":52.2,"text":"我們現在的運用倫理大概就是大概87%可是現在我們的預算是從400多億增加近一倍或超過一倍819.6億元那會不會沒有了解原鄉偏鄉高流動力縣市的社工缺額是否高於平均"},{"start":52.82,"end":64.056,"text":"再來當量案超載的時候有沒有啟動降載增派夜間緊急支持跟交通加成的機制那現在的地線社工到底撐得住撐不住"},{"start":66.023,"end":89.55,"text":"我們再來特別統計一下因為我們現有的我手邊的資料是沒有特別對這個原鄉的人力社工人力做評估不知道部長4月3號你有沒有看到一個新聞就是台東的原家中心他們就是有到縣府抗議就是可能因為整併的問題造成他們的工作權的喪失你有沒有關心到這個問題"},{"start":91.308,"end":111.791,"text":"因為這個計畫主要是由那個園民會來做補助啦那因為我們知道過去20多年來最珍貴的價值它是以部落為基礎的初級預防跟文化陪伴可是它就是要納入社安網結果它就是要被迫直接去承接了高複雜高風險的脆弱家庭的處遇甚至要"},{"start":112.732,"end":132.45,"text":"使用我們現在主流跟缺乏我們所謂的缺乏敏感度的脆弱家庭指標來評估族人也就是說可能要把原家中心的這個工作跟現在主流社會的這個社工變成併在一起就變成說他們原本的這個他們的獨特性就不見了可能是因為經費的關係就要把我們這個單位合併起來可是會造成說"},{"start":137.034,"end":160.717,"text":"可能就是我們的工作人員可能就不太了解原住民地區的屬性所以我在覺得實務上有幾個面向請衛福部去參考一下現在都島跟社工公私分離 相隔兩地如何提供及時的救命支持是因為我們原住民地區你都知道有一個鄉甚至是都比平地縣還要大比如說我們說的新義鄉它就比彰化縣還大"},{"start":161.878,"end":183.286,"text":"那我就說你一個督導就在縣政府好了然後我們我們的那個社工是在部落他們其實是雖然是督導可是他們其實沒有辦法常常見面他要怎麼去分攤他那個心理壓力或者說他面對這些緊急處置的時候有沒有一個直接的幫忙所以我覺得這個部分可能要去參考第二個就是專業升級的落差這些我們部落的"},{"start":184.226,"end":204.233,"text":"這原家中心本來是做預防工作可是他現在直接跟三網接軌的時候他跟他跟社福中心這個培訓是不是有一個完有沒有完整性因為他可能沒有到達這樣那個專業的一個判斷那個標準所以是不是這個權責原正不對等的時候然後如果系統失靈然後覺得他們要去承接這個那個風險"},{"start":206.334,"end":217.002,"text":"全部轉嫁給基層這樣的對我們原家中心或者基層的社工也是面對這樣的同樣的一個心理壓力我是覺得是不是應該找原民會來針對這個原家中心做一個通盤的檢討因為現在台東這個原家中心是15個鄉鎮"},{"start":224.504,"end":244.024,"text":"跟委員說明據我們了解當然這個原家中心就是主要是原住民背景的社工來服務原住民主地區這個我們是很支持那至於說人民會遇到什麼樣的狀況對這個原家中心有什麼調整我們再來細部的了解之後"},{"start":244.224,"end":259.423,"text":"有一個建議啦就是希望對原子彈中心的督導能夠建置回歸中心內部以及高風險的案件的那個銜接的標準我覺得為何不應該在跟原本能不能在近期之內做個具體的修正檢討啦我的意思是這樣"},{"start":260.604,"end":264.007,"text":"第三個問題就是現在的原價中心和民間團體拼的這些高風險因為缺乏公權力他無法順利協調我們教育醫療"},{"start":276.298,"end":302.677,"text":"警政戶政就業等機關導致高風險預防跟介入的效果有限今天不管是原家中心還是縣府的社會處我們的委外的民間團體他實際上承接脆弱家庭高風險家庭兒少保護邊緣個案其實中央沒有給予一致的專業標準跟決策授權跟法律的風險所以我覺得他們是不是處在一個他們完全不太明白他們自己的工作風險的這個樣態裡面好"},{"start":306.59,"end":326.071,"text":"所以我希望衛福部能夠就委外工作哪些是可以做高風險的判斷這些人受過什麼樣的訓練他的權限在哪裡然後哪些風險是必須是靠個人來自己扛哪些問題是可以有專業我覺得這些問題都是一而再再而三要去面對的問題要去盤點他們"},{"start":327.612,"end":342.03,"text":"是是好第四個就是我們常常看到就是呃你的報告會會看到跨體系協作轉弦機制公安會議這些名詞可是我想說就第一線社工和脆弱家庭而已這些"},{"start":342.911,"end":359.502,"text":"這代表的到底實際的支持跟共同承擔是有代表什麼樣的意義嗎還是在案件在不同的單位之間不斷的轉手所以我覺得這個互轉機制原理會有說會說共同方式可是我是不是覺得那個信任跟資訊在轉的那一刻"},{"start":360.722,"end":382.803,"text":"這些就會不見我的意思就是說是不是那個就是會一個很像是填完表單就會結案這種層層轉手的那種感覺很像就是到了一個地方就很像就不關他的事我的意思是這樣會不會有這種只是轉手給別的單位來做其實卻沒有相對的一個所謂的信任或什麼"},{"start":384.985,"end":408.694,"text":"跟委員說明我們現在即使是轉手這個前一手還是要有一定的追蹤到他確認這個新的接手單位或者是這個社工呢已經上手了所以這中間會有一個銜接啦也不會說因為轉手之後就立刻就不管了應該是不會要有一個兩邊的那個overlapping"},{"start":408.814,"end":424.513,"text":"我希望有一個轉案的穩定率是不是30天90天是不是真正的穩定的比例有多少那漏接的那個重複率啊比如說再通報率再受虐率或者是重複看案例有多高這些部分我覺得應該是還是要有數據讓大家知道"},{"start":425.074,"end":453.522,"text":"那最後一個就是昨天有超過1600名社工包圍行政院這個部分大概部長應該也有掌握不過我想知道想真正要提出來就是說他們真正恐懼的是這個只要一出事沒有強制調查權的社工是不是隨時都會被法官就是扣上保證你這個帽子然後再被判刑你覺得他們這樣面對這樣的一個基層焦慮你們的對策是什麼立場是什麼"},{"start":454.042,"end":467.714,"text":"好 當然第一個就是這次大家爭議多的就是這個所謂的保證人地位啦那這個我們已經在明天下午會邀請相關的司法法律的法將大家來討論把這個釐清一下"},{"start":472.258,"end":494.555,"text":"至於權責上面我們也會再來協助今天下午有先跟社工團體們大家來坐談來瞭解他們面臨到的困境我們一定做最大的後盾跟權力的協助其實他們有一個訴求是業務責任保險這個部分的規劃是不是也有在這次的考量裡面"},{"start":495.635,"end":522.963,"text":"我們目前當然有團保啦這主要是對於人身保險的部分那至於責任這個業務責任保險的部分我們再來研究看看好最後就是那個剛才的原家中心因為他這樣子一個持續的發展會可能會剝奪部分的原住民的工作權所以我希望部長能夠多多的去了解這個問題好嗎好原家中心我來了解"},{"start":524.073,"end":530.009,"text":"好 謝謝盧憲英委員盧憲英召委的發言接下來我們請郭玉琴委員發言"}]}},{"id":"168813","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168813","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442e5cf1a8fa999682a6e07bf52eec0dd4908965b28c46199cc7c3c93a5258e3a4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:43:19 - 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對不對你這個情況要不要講一下跟委員說明就是我們這個食藥署在邊境它是抽驗的概念抽驗就是說如果抽到這個貨櫃然後它就會挑幾顆然後就去做這個檢驗包含這個龍葵檢驗這個就會驗檢驗什麼項目包含這個重金屬"},{"start":88.848,"end":109.131,"text":"農藥殘留包含這個配糖體那裡面就包含這個龍葵鹼就是所謂的茄鹼如果驗出來有超標任何一個地方超標我們是這個貨櫃整個貨櫃就退就退或銷毀所以不需要一顆一顆去不需要一顆一顆整個就退了你就打臉著龍派不是"},{"start":109.651,"end":131.92,"text":"那個院長講的應該是講因為我們是靠科學檢驗啦但是另外一塊是檢驗不是 另外一個是檢驗啦農業部他們是那個防疫署防檢署他們是做那個檢驗檢驗他就會去看外觀有沒有病狀害啊所以你的是邊境管理我們這是在做邊境的檢驗查驗農業部也是邊境管理農業部有做邊境邊境是有兩個部會對啊 你們差別在哪裡啊"},{"start":140.004,"end":159.184,"text":"我們是根據的是食品衛生他們是在做這個檢疫檢疫就包含有沒有植物病蟲害包含剛剛說的所以不管是農業部或者是衛福部的邊境管理派的人在那裡基本上做不到除科檢驗就這個意思"},{"start":161.385,"end":185.291,"text":"都是抽菸啦 都是抽菸只是說他在那個房間署的話他就是就抽掉嘛第二個問題 今天談到比較特殊小孩子因為我前沒有多久去參加一個算是莊角吧 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也有可能啦因為目前我們請他們陸續提報但是這個部分因為像中油的話它吸收的成本非常的多以現在來講它的成本就是整個是高漲起來那將來一定要做有一些的一個補貼那所以要用特別預算或是用最佳預算都還沒有確定就對了"},{"start":251.571,"end":255.516,"text":"但是的確是需要這筆錢 這筆預算因為我們這一個穩定物價或是說對於這一個各行各業的補貼其實已經陸陸續續在開始在做了好 那我再請教一下主計長這個總預算有附帶的條件"},{"start":268.231,"end":295.342,"text":"那附帶條件就是說要行政院在半年內提出有關軍人待遇條例還有這個警察人員人事條例的相關修正案還有其他有關軍公教的保障措施那我請一下主席長那當然這個目前這部分我們是先釋憲了但是因為在野黨有要求然後為了這個讓總運算能夠審查那所以行政院這邊看起來是有讓步就是說主任長說"},{"start":296.662,"end":315.787,"text":"對於這兩項的修正案還有軍公教整體待遇調整的想法應該還可以有加強的地方更符合國軍的照顧也照顧到國家財政的紀律也符合憲政的精神請問一下主計長那這個要怎麼做因為看起來就是要再追加預算了嘛不然你們去年就是沒有這筆預算啊"},{"start":318.33,"end":340.156,"text":"這個部分我要跟委員報告,院長有指示未來將以體制健全、法治完備、公平、恆平、財政永續這四大原則來做整個檢討整體軍公教的待遇所以這個部分不管是在公平性、恆平性還有財政永續的基礎上"},{"start":340.996,"end":357.505,"text":"是要怎麼樣那人總還有跟相關有一些政務委員都一直在開會在模擬這個整個相關的一個我的意思是說這個四個條件那最後要這個完備但是呢你要符合這一個比如說在野黨他們的要求"},{"start":358.746,"end":381.185,"text":"那我看起來就是最後你必須要用最佳預算的方式來做處理啦因為你去年沒有編這些預算嘛對不對你是講說軍公教、警校或是說整體的這個公務人員的待遇的調整那看起來就是要再追加一筆預算啦我們會看將來的一個討論出來的一個結果我們來做整個一個裁員的研議"},{"start":382.533,"end":397.184,"text":"阿對啊我的意思是說啦因為你不可能沒有回應嘛你變成說你有回應的話這筆預算在去年你們編的時候根本就沒有啊對不對那到最後變成還是要用最佳預算方式來做處理啦有點像是去年的這個進發補償條例的方式了啦"},{"start":399.246,"end":424.801,"text":"我們必須要看整個實施的日期因為院長要裁定說實施的日期看實施的日期到底是什麼時候然後來確定說第一個我們的裁員第二個實施的日期有可能比如說明年那就是弄在這個明年的預算就對了這也是一種方式就對了那你們現在在編概算了吧現在編明年的概算了對不對所以應該就把這筆預算把它想進去了嘛"},{"start":426.953,"end":453.728,"text":"現在目前還沒有金額因為現在討論的一個還沒有定案這個一直在人總一直在提方式跟一些相關的一個單位來做討論那我的意思是說似乎就是可能要用這一個行政院自己提不管是條例的一些調整或是說我們自己主動提到說如何再讓這個軍工教育這個待遇能夠再增加"},{"start":454.96,"end":476.835,"text":"那一定最後是提到錢的問題嘛就是預算啊那看起來如果說是在明年實施那當然就是屬於明年的預算了那可能今年就不一定用最佳預算的方式來做處理了啦大概是這個方式嘛是不是好 OK謝謝主席長那我請這個財政部今天是阮次長來嗎還是誰次長好來 林次長那你邊走我邊問啦這個"},{"start":486.701,"end":514.635,"text":"2025年 去年 按照你們的資料全國的賦稅的收入是3,879億 創歷史新高連續五年呈現正成長然後呢 高出預算數最多其實就是證交稅啦證交稅這一個超出預算數234億 那其實是遺產稅那但是呢 看起來 這個我們的稅率是增加的"},{"start":515.643,"end":527.274,"text":"但是呢 這也是從2021年來首次出現的短針跟運算數相比呢 去年的10針的金額叫運算數短少了143億元那 請教一下市長 這個"},{"start":531.838,"end":552.83,"text":"我們的賦稅收入增加,但是實際上又短徵,那短徵原因在哪裡?其實我覺得最主要,最主要因為...署長,最主要是因為他去年,就是我們在去年結算申報的時候,前一年的時候我們是有給他分期或者延期申報"},{"start":554.371,"end":577.479,"text":"那到去年申報的時候,他就整個要補回來所以基本上我們雖然是說有一點時申數比預算數要少一點,但是少的非常小就是在1%以內非常精準,所以我們去年的預算數的估列是非常精準的"},{"start":577.879,"end":587.566,"text":"沒有啦 你們算是那個證交稅就不精準啦證交稅一來一往就差了快400億欸你們是本來還減劣喔 本來是編2500億 減劣了193億但是實際上呢 超出預算數是234億我是說一來一往就400億了 這部分就不精準了啦"},{"start":602.197,"end":606.899,"text":"有時候是這樣啦,稅收我們編制到執行真的是有一個落差啦真的是很難掌握啦不過就去年來講,我們按來切去所以我是覺得說時增數達到預算數99%點幾也就是說差距真的非常小雖然有時候有些稅務是多的,但是有些稅務是少的我再問一下啦"},{"start":628.889,"end":657.374,"text":"這是其實是今年度的預算我們在這邊討論因為你們去年收多少今年都已經知道了嘛對對對那明年度的預算咧在我是說在證交稅這方面咧當然明年度可能是九月之後的事情但是我就是要請教一下因為目前看起來股市是蠻熱的然後呢我看你們第一季的這一個報告證交稅是連續八個月維持正成長的是是那所以說"},{"start":658.978,"end":680.075,"text":"現在在估明年的這個這個預算數還有這個這個證交稅這方面的話應該是不至於再低估了吧其實我覺得這個國際政經情勢這個變動非常的快速啦有時候還很難說現在就說得準啦這個風雨飄來的時間台灣都屹立不搖了這中東戰事突然期間這個股市"},{"start":686.299,"end":708.855,"text":"這個跌跌漲漲 台股還是 我看今天本來有到38000對 但是後來還是會掉下來對 我的意思是說 因為第一季第一季其實你們時增數是有增加的我是希望說你們在預估這個證交稅這方面的話能夠再估準一點不然你們這一個 去年你們認為說今年這一個股市沒有那麼熱 還減劣"},{"start":710.736,"end":731.853,"text":"剪裂了增加稅 隨便倒沒有啊還增加了兩百多億啊另外我跟委員順便報告一下就是說我們從今年第一季第一季我們就是全國數來講比上一年同期大概增加一千零一十五億啊但是就中央來講中央其實是少了這個三百五十三億因為是財務法的關係啊因為財務法的關係啊請市長用書面做回覆好 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現在主席是不是來請我們石部長 又請石部長部長在這個千年審預算的時候我之前提到說這個對於校園學生問題的自殺的人次年年攀升"},{"start":28.514,"end":56.06,"text":"顯示說學齡、年輕族群的年齡層和高風險對象的自殺防治關懷仍然要有待強化但是我們檢視了你們去年全國自殺防治中心的成果報告的數據來看有關於兒童及青少年自殺防治策略建議中有關學齡層自殺死亡及通報數據的分析指出其實這五年來"},{"start":57.04,"end":85.421,"text":"學齡層的自殺通報人次還是在攀升那我們一直是要講說在這種狀況裡面你像國小孩子這麼小的小孩子男性與女性在106年開始就有顯著的上升特別是109年起上升幅度更加明顯而且自殺的死亡率在111年攀升到歷年新高"},{"start":86.872,"end":106.666,"text":"然後之後稍微有回降 但整體而言 國小學齡的自殺防制仍需要高度的關注那就國中學齡層的來看男性女性的通報人次 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輔資系統"},{"start":249.392,"end":277.558,"text":"然後這個就是要看說能不能成為學生良好發展的場域然後這是很關鍵的所以學校校職員的這個強化的訓練要包含辨識精神疾病提供學生適當的治療或支援減少精神疾病的惡化後續嚴重自殺企圖的發生危險因子的辨識自殺危機的處理或者是包括老師可能要跟這個家長妥善的溝通都是必須要強化的可是"},{"start":279.338,"end":281.4,"text":"我們都知道老師真的也很累你叫老師要會教書還要會這麼多的專業的這些能力真的也是很困難那如果說不要每個孩子我們都叫老師去網接住好了我們來看這一些特殊身份"},{"start":301.095,"end":324.923,"text":"過去精神病史的這一些孩子那已經是高風險群體了我們就鎖定在高風險群體來看以國小和國中學齡層特殊身份來看兒少保護通報的被害人在這三年戰率均為最高然後國外的研究發現兒時稍受虐待的往後對於自殺行為的"},{"start":326.524,"end":337.374,"text":"這個或者是自殺意念的其實是正相關的台灣的健保資料庫研究有發現受虐的孩童在往後罹患精神疾病的風險也比較高在這種狀況裡面針對國小學齡層兒童兒少保護議題的學童"},{"start":345.561,"end":369.631,"text":"那後續要持續連接的精神科的資源評估都是防治的重點但現在我們看到就是說中低收入戶和脆弱家庭在這兩年也佔率比較高他在這特殊身份別裡面佔率比較高就是一樣自殺的意念自殺行為提升但是呢大家在"},{"start":370.491,"end":386.877,"text":"社群網路裡面有很多焦慮但是如果你是中低收入戶或是脆弱家庭的基於社會文化經濟上的弱勢他可能自殺危險的比例風險是更高的特別是經濟危機"},{"start":391.539,"end":408.567,"text":"經濟危機有可能成為兒童自殺危險因子的惡化的因素所以在這種脆弱家庭無論是國小或國中階段自殺通報的人數一直都是近年來位居前三名這是你們的報告指出來的"},{"start":409.307,"end":433.541,"text":"脆弱家庭 中低收入戶 經濟壓力都是自殺通報人數的前三名那針對這一些人都已經是特殊身分別的兒少了大家都已經鎖定是高風險了那我們到底要怎麼樣去採取更具體的防治策略更精準的跨部會 跨體系的防治"},{"start":434.844,"end":460.172,"text":"那為什麼這個很重要呢其實我們都很害怕大家都見數不見零或者是整個行政體系會變成瞎子摸象你知道我們辨識出這些風險的來源那你有沒有一套能夠整合教育 社政 衛生 心理衛生串接起來的介入模式那為什麼要講這個因為這問題都很複雜教育端你看到孩子可能是說沒有來上課缺課"},{"start":462.433,"end":478.854,"text":"適應不良同儕關係衝突不好那是教育看到的可是社政端他看到的可是這個家庭脆弱照顧壓力然後到醫療端處理的就是說這個孩子送到醫療來他有情緒問題我處理他的精神疾病"},{"start":479.875,"end":503.285,"text":"每個部門都看到自己看見的處理自己的屬於自己的權責應該要負責的那部分卻沒有一個整合全貌串接起來這個全面式的這個介入的模式所以我們擔心說這樣的制度安排對高風險而少而言風險大家都看到了而且大家都只看到自己的"},{"start":504.045,"end":529.376,"text":"可是有沒有一個可以串接起來針對這樣的家庭是全面式的關照全面式的這個介入的一個模式呢謝謝委員提到確實在這個全球的報告也是這樣在COVID之後那個Mental Health的問題反映在那個自殺率的上升那台灣也是同樣的問題這也是一種社會不平等"},{"start":530.416,"end":554.922,"text":"這個在青少年也看到這個趨勢這個趨勢跟世界各國的趨勢是對啦那我現在講的重點就是說社政看到社政的問題處理社政的問題教育看到教育的問題處理教育的問題醫療看到醫療界需要的提供的服務他就提供他自己的服務可是大家都沒有看到這個串聯起來你可能要處理的可能就不是某一個部門的問題它是全面式的對"},{"start":560.103,"end":578.253,"text":"所以我們現在先嘗試的讓這些資訊系統可以串接在一起所以跟委員報告就是我們這個社安網的計畫就是把34個系統先串起來讓它這個資訊流至少可以歸人但是確實還沒有那麼優化"},{"start":579.233,"end":595.708,"text":"就是說你串起來到最後你是要判別他的風險因為我們都始終知道預防是最重要的嘛所以在這裡面對反覆出現在各個部門各個統計資料裡面的高風險身分別你要明確的去分級辨識轉型追蹤跨體系協作"},{"start":599.05,"end":624.899,"text":"而且當一名兒少同時具有脆弱家庭兒少保護通報校園適應困難或精神醫療他都已經被看見的多重風險的時候那主責要換誰那誰要負責來整合資訊那誰要來判斷要提高處遇的強度還有就是說我們整個全面式的這個處遇到底誰哪一個部門要負責"},{"start":627.3,"end":652.45,"text":"跟委員說明因為我們剛剛也提到這個一組折然後共同協多方協力 協作對那這個的概念就是說比如說他是從這個翠家進來的那當然他如果是屬於保護個案的那他就是這個保護性社工會組折你們就只處理保護的但是他就要去連結其他因為他就可以看得到他的其他的資訊那也許他是精神個案進來的"},{"start":653.59,"end":658.397,"text":"那可能是以這個我們精神這邊的醫療人員為主但是我們意思是說他可能看到萃家的然後看到醫療的這個精神個案的那其實他的狀況可能來自於多重的多重的"},{"start":669.674,"end":686.464,"text":"它可能是經濟壓力、那父母的家庭功能的失調的那全面性的要介入的所以我們的意思是說這一些要串接在一起然後看到問題要全面式的接觸它這樣子啊所以後端的話就會有網絡會議就是在處理這種比較複雜網絡跨部門的會議你們就這種個案"},{"start":693.508,"end":710.769,"text":"有這麼多的人手可以這樣子經常去網絡會議討論然後經常工作會議檢討經常整合式的全面性的介入嗎跟委員說明大概比較高危機的是每個月會去review"},{"start":711.669,"end":729.28,"text":"對 就是說跨體系支持的機制要把這些新型態的風險一起納入因為我們剛剛講的就是說傳統上我們都以為是家庭功能失調然後校園適應不良 精神醫療需求但對脆弱家庭來講的孩子而言他們新時代比如說網路霸凌 社群媒體成癮"},{"start":730.781,"end":752.726,"text":"這個很多 真的 複合式的自殺資訊的擴散 新興自殺方法的擴散往往會跟既有的家庭壓力 情緒困擾和求助失靈交互作用 然後它會放大那個風險所以你們現在要進入的是已經到一個網路時代裡面的網路社群媒體的這一些"},{"start":755.306,"end":766.98,"text":"現象裡面的負面的作用交織跟傳統的問題交織在一起放大那一些問題那你們其實也都有看到啦"},{"start":768.945,"end":792.541,"text":"所以你們的報告也提到網路社群媒體跟自殺的相關智慧型手機 社群媒體的興起那可能引發了自殺的危機其實國外的系統文獻包括網路使用 網路霸凌都跟自殺 自傷的還有憂鬱的增加有關那台灣的研究也是發現網路成癮跟一週精神症狀包括睡眠困難"},{"start":796.324,"end":806.872,"text":"長期就失眠了,小孩子就在失眠了然後把焦慮、苦惱、憂鬱、感覺比不上別人以及自殺意念之間形成顯著的相關那這種成癮、霸凌就進一步導致自殺的風險其實不要講小孩,連大人都有失眠問題就想自殺了失眠障礙,那失眠障礙年齡層一直往下掉"},{"start":819.582,"end":823.884,"text":"那網路媒體資訊的興起改變也改變了自殺資訊的傳播方式馬街醫院的團隊對2479位青少年調查研究3%的人曾經在網路上接觸過自殺相關的內容特別是每當"},{"start":836.69,"end":864.613,"text":"新興自殺的方法出現新聞傳播了網路媒體的影響更為顯著那台大一個教授張書生他就講在媒體報導某種新興的自殺方法在日本他們就發現網路的搜尋量增加50倍在英國增加9倍然後還有網站上相約自殺這種東西就是這就是真的是進一步的模仿大家都一直模仿那"},{"start":866.604,"end":896.304,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們也看到你們都看到了你們的報告就全國自殺防治中心成果報告你們都有寫到就是說關於網路社群媒體跟自殺風險的文字年年都有講年年都有報告你們也都看到了但是我們要問的是說可是他還是不斷的在攀升自殺的次數自殺的人數自殺的年齡層下降自殺的人數上升"},{"start":897.084,"end":924.403,"text":"你們都看到了可是他還是問題越來越嚴重所以連續每年你們都這樣警訊可是我們看不到你的報告裡面相應的政策的升級也沒有看到更具體的監測介入和防治的機制所以在這裡我們如果你們都知道了我們要問的就不是研究的結論而是要問你們說你們我們國家政府端出來的相對應的政策到底是什麼因為這種網路風險跟傳統的校園"},{"start":926.684,"end":944.452,"text":"家庭的風險重疊在一起會擴大那它具有擴散快模仿性高接觸無國界隱蔽性強的特色那在學校裡面社群平台匿名論壇影音平台通訊群組大量的散發接觸"},{"start":945.692,"end":971.382,"text":"在這種狀況裡面政府也應該要有新的治理的工具而不是你在報告裡面把這一些現象用舊的文字重複一遍再重複一遍所以呢台灣公共衛生雜誌2023年台灣青少年自殺率上升的相關因素與預防對策的啟發有講到這個青少年因為特定網路內容或使用方式增加心理困擾與自殺風險"},{"start":973.343,"end":987.594,"text":"然後再大概指出青少年在網路上閱讀自殺相關資訊習得的學習到的自殺的方法或模仿的效應特別是名人自殺或是網路上報導的自殺的情節一直在模仿"},{"start":988.374,"end":1005.629,"text":"所以英國研究自殺死亡的青少年裡面在死亡以前他們13%都有搜尋自殺的方法的資訊10%在網路都發表想要自殺那台灣大概還沒有看到這一方面的數據那所以台灣還有一個現象是15到24歲輟學的"},{"start":1009.732,"end":1026.059,"text":"15到24歲學齡層但錯學的自殺的風險跟相關因素也即待研究因為這些人數可能更在於學齡層在學的這個比例所以我們從這些資訊就是說部長網路風險的行為監測還有錯學學生族群的自殺風險研究還有後續支持的資源的建置我們不能夠再這樣子"},{"start":1038.544,"end":1063.873,"text":"只是宣導只是提醒其實風險辨識早期通報校園應變合作平台合作轉介支持這一些都一連串的是要跨部會的我們不想要看到你告訴我有這種風險我們想要看到的是你的政策是升級是upgrade的而且是與時俱進的而且是知道重點你已經不能是傳統式的那些風險辨識了"},{"start":1069.545,"end":1082.129,"text":"確實社群媒體就如同您剛剛提到的越來越多的報告影響到青少年的身心健康還有他的學習能力跟他的社交相對的也會影響剛剛說到的自殺風險"},{"start":1085.47,"end":1104.455,"text":"所以我們現在大概幾個方法我們能做的就是第一個我們有提供這個心理諮商嘛我們從15歲就是第一個那第二個呢我們有iWIN嘛大概協助說一旦申訴了我們就趕快讓他下架處分這個也是做很久我們講的是社群網路上的問題"},{"start":1105.155,"end":1125.96,"text":"那第三個我們也跟速發部合作 透過AI巡查然後即時反應給我們 然後我們判斷之後就讓他遮蔽或下架大概有這幾個做法上在進行那也跟教育部也在合作 教育部在校園裡面他也會限制使用他的自殺風險可能很高"},{"start":1127.826,"end":1142.114,"text":"其實複合式的包括經濟壓力的經濟壓力再加上網路被霸凌的因為社會文化經濟弱勢在網路上更容易被嘲笑在這種同儕團體之間被嘲笑壓力更大想死的對 那這個我們也會跟教育部大家來合作強化這個對於這個網路風險行為的監測"},{"start":1155.174,"end":1173.113,"text":"其實你們 我都跟你們說出來都跟國家一樣我們繼續來研究看看 現在其他有辦法做的 或者是其他的做法上難道沒有可以更精進的 更可以有效的防治的嗎"},{"start":1175.379,"end":1199.699,"text":"我們來繼續研究啦好啦小孩子我們看到小孩子自殺的比例越來越高人數越來越多真的覺得很捨不得而且不應該啦因為他們還那麼小就想要死剛出生就想要死這件事情就是社會的責任國家的責任了啦好謝謝林淑芬委員發言接下來請賴氏寶委員發言"}]}},{"id":"168803","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168803","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442c39e3c094052494647e947452b276263a9438ec9e4ea00b30e7e88b7d6e8a5905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"11:01:45 - 11:09:27","影片長度":"00:07:42","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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我們請次長請經濟部來次長"},{"start":14.8,"end":34.899,"text":"市长好我想今天有非常多的委员根据土石采取法提出很多的修正特别是第36条我想呢大概过去的法规都放在这个地方但是因为美农大小股的事件那个实在是挖的让大家太触目惊心了所以就有很多委员纷纷的就提高法则特别把这个所谓的刑法给他放进去"},{"start":35.279,"end":41.282,"text":"事實上這些很多的罰則全部都在這裡面的我們就一一來審視以我們這樣的修法來說的話有沒有辦法遏止這樣子的一個狀況那基本上你剛剛在質詢台上說兩個禮拜之後院版就會出來因為我剛剛看一下你們的報告這個方向跟委員的修法其實都大同小異沒錯吧"},{"start":53.968,"end":65.478,"text":"是 但是我們希望針對於蓄意而且是牟利的所謂的稻採行為好那我們就來看看一些蓄意好不好那我們就來看這個細則的一個條文當中那你看你只要構成條件是意圖盈利對不對意圖盈利的話你要除五年以下還有有些時候可以併科五千萬以下的罰金"},{"start":75.427,"end":95.435,"text":"那我認為盜採沙士這是完全不可以原諒的但是呢有些的條文上面我們是不是有商榷的一個空間舉例來說你並沒有去區分合法申報瑕疵跟惡意非法盜採的差別這兩個是有一個差別因為你剛所提到的意圖意圖在法律的用字上面是我們構成犯罪的一個核心條件但是呢它是屬於一個比較是屬於個人的心理的狀態"},{"start":99.437,"end":101.878,"text":"那如果法官在做審判的時候呢可能會透過自由新政的方法來認定意圖是否存在那你如果沒有做區分的話我必須要老實講有些時候可能他只是在申報數量的一個誤差所以我說他是合法但是有瑕疵"},{"start":115.123,"end":118.927,"text":"有些人是完全是蓄意就是要來拿這些你沒有把它區分清楚的話很多公務員會因為怕事又因為KPI的關係搞不好在這個地方他就會這樣子完全集中火力完全就是來給你重罰那這個部分裡面可能會造成一些錯殺會不會有這樣問題你們跟法務部在這個用詞上面有沒有做過一些的討論"},{"start":137.998,"end":158.498,"text":"這個在過去修法的過程裡面我們跟法務部做討論至於說針對於合法或是民眾自用的部分小量的採取我們原來在採取法的第三條裡面就有六個條我認為還是要有一個空間所以說你這個部分裡面法上上去的話在解釋上面一定要更明確這是我所擔心的謝謝委員指導"},{"start":159.639,"end":175.516,"text":"还有一个就是说你看虽然我刚讲了嘛每一个人都有这个法条但是呢你在执行上面你这个即使是罚到2500他的获利是3亿5亿的这个还是一样所以你一定要有一些配套那当然你也提到了这一定要看地方政府的一个执行的一个层面啊那"},{"start":176.597,"end":184.94,"text":"往往就是因為很多人都是拿人頭來啊 這個次長你也知道嘛 拿人頭嘛所以以至於他違規的時候 地方政府要代為整復的時候常常面臨 娶沒人 也沒人給我交的處罰金那你要怎麼辦 這個措施你要怎麼辦他沒有辦法繳出罰金啊 你擺在那邊怎麼辦"},{"start":195.991,"end":207.156,"text":"第一個我們透過包括刑法的部分的一個建立刑法是目前為止我認為是最有效但是我說你拿不到因為你要讓他恢復原狀嘛因為有時候債務組他沒錢你要怎麼辦所以說怎麼辦所以我們現在在修法的部分有包括所謂的得代理刑的這個部分"},{"start":215.782,"end":231.085,"text":"代旅行費用的預存是不是不是代旅行因為代旅行費用的預存的話就是代表說有申請人他先去繳說那很多人口報繳不起啊那事實上現在全國的所謂的合法的所謂土石採取場數量是非常少的"},{"start":231.645,"end":245.671,"text":"但是我們現在發現的問題他不是在合法採取的過程裡面來產生非法的這個行為所以他蓄意針對完全沒有申請的部分你法擺在那個地方可是我們倒採"},{"start":246.912,"end":262.754,"text":"在倒彩的這個說實在還是非常多因為利益太大了所以我就說你一切的配套措施還有包括檢舉舉報的這個獎金的機制其實你都要思考法是一回事到最後都會通過因為每個人都有一致的方式但是執行的層面你一定要給他更多的一個"},{"start":263.775,"end":272.341,"text":"一個配套好不好這是非常重要的最後給我一分鐘的時間我對於翡翠水庫來說的話我還是要請問一下翡翠水庫今天是鬧得沸沸揚揚但是呢是監察院糾舉當初的水利署不好意思次長你就是當初的水利署署長你認為監察院這樣糾舉有沒有錯誤因為他認為是完全是浪費的水的一個資源而且對民生用水來說有太多珍貴的水源就是因為這樣子將流到大海去"},{"start":291.775,"end":315.951,"text":"所以監察院來糾舉水利署次長你那時候是水利署的署長你面對現在的爭議的話你真的要站起來因為我現在認為是翡翠水庫管理局曾經屬下的他們背著非常大的一個黑鍋我覺得整個問題都是我們能源的問題以至於讓我們用很多珍貴的水民間用的水 民生用的水必須要來承擔這樣的一個角色所以監察院才出這樣糾舉我不曉得大家在吵什麼這個冤有圖債有主啊 糾察院做這部分你同不同意 次長"},{"start":321.454,"end":326.16,"text":"監察院除了水利署之外還有台北翡翠水庫管理局但是水利署是一個很重要的一個角色嘛那我個人覺得嘛那時候監察院所講的其實是很清楚他就告訴你說民生占比只有30然後還有非常多的東西是流失"},{"start":340.778,"end":365.761,"text":"所以我个人认为在今天这么多争议什么得到便宜还卖瓜等等之类当中我觉得当初应该针对监察院所提出的纠正来做出一些的澄清到底翡翠水库有没有发生这样的状况发生这样的状况之下面我们该怎么样来处理次长我觉得你很认真但是在面对这件事情的时候你应该站出来针对你那时候的所整个的脉络跟过程也应该站出来讲一些的话吧"},{"start":366.349,"end":379.444,"text":"針對於稀缺的水資源我們就希望說有比較好的調控而且現在的預報的技術水平都是相當的高所以透過預報還有包括管理的層面可以減少水資源的浪費"},{"start":381.927,"end":398.706,"text":"對 我想只是說大家爭論的時候 我都覺得都已經爭論到其他太多政治上面議題 應該回歸到我們真正的能源 翡翠水庫的水是不是適合用來做於發電然後民間用水到底如何能夠在增其水資源之下 不要讓它過度浪費 這才是我們討論這件事情最大的重點"},{"start":401.229,"end":416.552,"text":"沒錯吧基本上多目標的水庫啊特別是像翡翠水庫啊或是像曾文水庫他都是不是以發電為主要目的他是一個附屬的我們希望他在發揮主要的蓄水供水的功能了之後"},{"start":417.273,"end":444.169,"text":"然後在附屬的這個部分和一些的發電的效益那這個過程裡面我們不希望水資源有所浪費所以我們說他有提出一些的改善你如果覺得經常因為這個改善可以你其實就應該好好來做我只是認為現在目前為止討論到這些問題的時候花太多時間都是在一些細微的政治操作而真正對於經常被所糾舉那一些我們應該做的改善甚至更高的一個能源物體我覺得那個才是我們大家應該共同focus的重點對不對"},{"start":446.002,"end":459.367,"text":"謝謝對於人所需要的不管是水跟電的部分經濟部一直很重視這個問題我們持續的來精進那兩個禮拜之後就看你們提出的願板好吧我剛剛說的土石對好謝謝好謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"168802","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168802","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442a1fdc1380bb656046726ceb1fc879916a9438ec9e4ea00b359a766c9ad8cead35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"10:53:32 - 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請衛福部次長 農業部何政次"},{"start":34.079,"end":47.298,"text":"委員好兩位次長好那我今天呢最主要的討論的議題是在對於美國輸入的這個馬鈴薯當中的檢疫條件的過程因為現在我們可以看到說因為事情爆發之後呢農業部跟"},{"start":50.001,"end":66.498,"text":"衛福部就做了很多的這樣子的一個修訂我覺得這是好事但是我們最重要是看到為什麼當初會有這樣一個結構第一個我們看到的是1月21號的時候就有一個修正案的預告它是要調整美國產的加工農業加工用的馬鈴薯的分流管理本來應該是要60天的預告期"},{"start":69.16,"end":89.057,"text":"現在只有14天那第二個2月6號正式公告之後呢他刪除了來發芽禁止輸入這個底線都在放寬那就是邊境放行讓這個有發芽症狀的馬鈴薯可能可以輸入那當然第三個我們看到是說呢這個是特別是專用到對加工業我們也很清楚"},{"start":89.477,"end":107.806,"text":"但是這個加工用當中呢是有些就直接到的是那個加工的設備工廠當中但是這個地方呢說如果都已經過了邊境這一關的時候他進入到工廠去了這部分檢疫的部分可以到工廠是嗎好那第二部分呢這裡面就是還包括的是第三第四個就是說"},{"start":108.926,"end":114.47,"text":"我們的要求就是或是美英或美方的要求說他在輸入到台灣的之前還必須要用發芽抑制劑來去清洗是做這樣的讓他可以不要再發芽等於說讓我們的民眾們在介於他會發芽的會有這個龍回檢的這樣子一個有毒性的這種傷害之下或者是說我們用一個發芽抑制劑他可能會對我們的"},{"start":133.624,"end":136.586,"text":"一個肝臟這些部分會有這個傷害尤其我們這個標準呢還比歐盟它現在有放寬了是到0.2的ppm可是現在呢我們是30ppm那這樣的一個差異性我就想問的是農業部跟衛福部"},{"start":152.156,"end":176.864,"text":"你們在這個當初的時候你們是採取什麼樣的立場或是你們在參加當初因為這個是根據這個理由上面很清楚他是要根據是要因應要這個我們台美的關稅協議的這個生效在這裡情況下想問一下當初我們的我們在談判的你們有商量我們談判的這個協商過程嗎還有說說你們在你們是什麼樣的情況是因應到這樣的台美是被告知的嗎先問這兩個問題"},{"start":181.604,"end":190.715,"text":"在農業部的部分我們如果是先時用的話所有的規定沒有變那如果是加工用的話我現在是問加工嗎"},{"start":192.116,"end":211.948,"text":"是 那加工用的話我們農業部的角色是三個第一個我們先看有沒有帶土壤帶土壤那個必須要推第二個他有沒有八種病蟲害第三個市長 你的問題我的問題是在於說你們在當初的在MOU 天秤跟ART的放行的時候你們當初有沒有去參與這樣子的一個談判的過程我沒有參與你們在農業部有沒有參與"},{"start":219.595,"end":244.534,"text":"農業部其實我們另外有一位次長因為他現在人出國我是代理他來備訓我不曉得他是不是有職業參與到這個衛福部呢 莊次長報告委員這個食安的議題的檢驗部分我們一直都沒有變從107年到現在所以驗了龍葵檢還有剛剛的那個液壓器液壓數的部分都是依照當時的規定都沒有改變以上"},{"start":245.356,"end":251.221,"text":"但是我的問題是在問說你們當初衛福部有去參與到我們在台美關稅談判當中嗎"},{"start":254.181,"end":282.533,"text":"我們沒有這個議題就巴亞的部分不是我們的對 沒有嘛就是沒有 結果全部都是因應到你們事實上是要被事後通知的所以才趕著要在1月21號的時候可能有些結果就沒有沒有 應該是說這整個這整個內容沒有這個檢驗的問題啦對 但是問題是因為這是農業部的問題農業部他把這樣子一個檢疫的條件把它放寬了是這個部分那這裡所造成的效果是我在想"},{"start":283.833,"end":302.279,"text":"農業部你們這邊應該說因為現在沒有人證明說你們有參加可是就我們現在談判那邊沒有看到這樣的一個人在裡面這就是顯示出來你們現在遇到這樣的問題的時候你們等於說是被事後告知是以我們的要關稅的降免為代價但是可是你們現在的樣式我在想說如果說"},{"start":303.419,"end":324.799,"text":"我們的這個事實沒有在現在4月份爆發出來是不是當然我也知道你剛才有說過現在的這個進口的要去加工的部分是7月才會進來但是如果是他們進口進來了直接後來在防疫上沒有知道而且我們根本就是不太理解的話呢到時候就是廠商呢這個進加工的"},{"start":325.66,"end":348.608,"text":"有問題的可能有問題的馬鈴薯就直接進入到加工廠去了然後就直接被製造出來讓民眾去使用了這樣子的一個狀況呢是不可能會出現的是很有可能會出現的所以這樣會說當初我們的農業部還有包括我們的衛福部遇到這個情況這樣的情況是不是根本就是沒有把我們人民的健康都代價"},{"start":351.003,"end":378.177,"text":"檢疫的條件沒有放寬這個要跟委員來做說明有有有檢疫沒有放寬啊檢疫的部分你們是已經允許有發芽症狀的馬鈴薯加工的進入啦怎麼會沒有不是他那個是本來是所有的加工也好 鮮食也好是違反三種一套標準在農業部分我們檢疫發現就馬上就退"},{"start":378.973,"end":398.171,"text":"我們現在是說你們這邊部分是在說加工的部分直接還到農業直接還到加工廠去好這個部分呢我看到你們的態度上面事實上沒辦法就是置置物就是不要再問到這裡因為我們現在看到不然的話你們現在為什麼這裡這兩天的時候農業部跟衛福部的官員一直出來在講說我們會真正"},{"start":400.393,"end":418.098,"text":"卓院長他也很清楚的說了,我們都會逐項的就是整櫃都會去看這個部分就是在做防疫防疫保養的動作嘛好,我就這樣子講,他說這部分喔我想要就是這個程序上面的一個過程流程我希望說農業部跟尤其特別是農業部要這個過程要跟他本席來做一個書面報告,可以嗎?"},{"start":420.96,"end":438.255,"text":"蘇貞報告可以交 但我還是跟委員報告一下發芽率我們最近這幾年檢查都像去年只有0.6所以其實目前我們是負責發芽的你發芽率很低是因為你加了抑菌劑啊抑菌劑下去啊"},{"start":440.977,"end":452.926,"text":"所以我跟你講我們就先講到這裡因為我還有其他部分要講但是我想用書面報告來呈現因為這裡面有看到的整個政府團隊裡面為了人民的健康的部分的把關事實上是不夠的沒有放寬啦 沒有放寬我們用書面報告給委員"},{"start":456.581,"end":460.524,"text":"你們這樣講是不夠正確我們現在就請的是農業部講討論的是農業部在南投民間鄉的焚化爐的用地的這個問題上面我們看到的是部長他在4月16號前幾天前他說了在民間鄉的這個焚化爐它這邊都是一個農業的特農地"},{"start":477.099,"end":495.886,"text":"那他就說呢他會到目前到16號為止他沒有受到南投縣政府的農地變更申請喔沒有喔沒有喔但是他是特定農業區喔那我們現在看到往下看了喔繼續往下看可是呢在這個農業特定區當中我們可以看到行政院在114年去年的3月28號呢就已經呢"},{"start":498.027,"end":500.188,"text":"我們繼續往下看財政部的次長請上台我們看到的是財政部的次長 請問次長能不能暫停一下時間"},{"start":528.26,"end":540.146,"text":"好 次長好我們看到複稅署在去年的3月20幾號就已經給了那我們看到的是另外一個問題是我當然要請到是這個審計部的部長陳部長請你上台我現在講的是另外一件事情在南投西的政府那我們現在就先讓部長上台"},{"start":555.842,"end":570.009,"text":"這個陳部長要跟你講就是南投縣政府他用了這個專款專用的環保基金來去買了這個國土地 國有的土地大概一萬一億元這個部分那可能有違法之嫌啦這邊要跟大家講的是"},{"start":571.67,"end":591.595,"text":"看到的是剛才農業部也說了 部長說了它是農地 農業專用地然後但是呢國產署這邊就已經給了移的地那這邊呢尤其在資金的上面呢在買的這個地因為特定的環保基金呢它事實上它並沒有用到市售可以去買地它在政策是在買地的部分呢確實有出現就是這邊要請教的是要請"},{"start":595.924,"end":620.141,"text":"陳部長您知道這件事情嗎知道那這部分您的看法是怎麼樣因為看起來有一些爭議啦其實能不能買地他有一個收支保管應用辦法他那個收支保管應用辦法裡面是可以買設備但是我們要去查他的立法說明能不能買土地因為"},{"start":622.343,"end":642.278,"text":"設備是一般在會計上土地是包括在裡面但是立法因為很多的立一個法都會有立法說明我們會整個了解以後給委員一個報告好可以那另外的農業部次長你們的部長已經說了是要農地農用這部分你們的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":643.298,"end":670.672,"text":"對 因為特定農業區的話我們希望在台灣有限的這個土地要作為農用因為這個是非常好的一塊這個特農區那你們就是會堅持這樣的情況嗎我們會 但是因為他文還沒有送過來我們不曉得他們當時他們會做怎麼樣的一個結論如果送過來的話我們會站在基於保護農地的立場我們會希望這一塊地應該是用在農用上"},{"start":671.252,"end":686.449,"text":"OK 好 謝謝農業市長有這個意見那另外只是請陳部長留下來 其他的就請回最後一個部分呢 就想要簡單的去回應一下就是說我們看到的是 想要針對的是 沒人盡數的做結論好 就是 我也許就講"},{"start":687.35,"end":710.107,"text":"我們看到的是在審計部在一百三年決算報告當中提出了六項的這樣子一個整體上面對總體所得分配的這個內容但是在因為我們看到那個效果裡面尤其在財政就是在這個薪資這部分它事實上九七成還是低於這個員工的平均數的情形那總之總共我本來有很多部分要去講包括在學校的部分等等的那最後我就想是說想要問的是"},{"start":713.228,"end":731.532,"text":"針對這一個你們所做出來的決算報告對行政院各部會裡面的民生措施會達目標或者是財務的維持上面你們審計部做了什麼有沒有給他們做一個具體的一個實成建議有沒有更強力的苛責行動因為貧富不均看來越來越嚴重是國際的風險我們這一個部分會美聯查"},{"start":735.629,"end":739.474,"text":"查到有一定的成效才會結束所以114我們還會繼續查包括改善測試"}]}},{"id":"168801","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168801","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442e7e5d6a00255991d47e947452b276263a9438ec9e4ea00b378ef0510ede47c525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:52:35 - 11:01:41","影片長度":"00:09:06","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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電 絕對不能缺所以現有的這個水的容量 水的供應量即便我們 我蓋了兩個再生水廠那時候我們一起努力 鋼橋 對不對還有楠梓再生水廠是我爭取才有這個兩座再生水廠好 還是不夠你如果再往北未來還有一個陸竹財源區要規劃所以未來的海淡廠有沒有 現在有沒有新的進度"},{"start":85.212,"end":105.257,"text":"阿蘇委員所說的我們針對區域發展特別是南邦大溪谷的這個部分我們針對於水的這個組織有沒有新的計畫就有沒有新的地點因為可見當時這個你們規劃的地點好像地方上有意見我希望你們跟地方溝通在原址如果可以的話在原址再蓋"},{"start":107.056,"end":130.351,"text":"地方上如果可以支持 我覺得最好就在原子來蓋 你知道原子那個地方在哪裡嗎新南海電廠裡面嘛 旁邊 靠近永安嘛那如果我們地方民眾還是覺得不妥你們另外再找地點 好不好這個部分我覺得還是要繼續推動啦一天十萬噸對未來產業的需求非常重要因為白富產業園區現在在遭傷"},{"start":133.601,"end":137.115,"text":"那個多產業園區也是我爭取的對不對你也很清楚嘛"},{"start":139.514,"end":165.248,"text":"這個也是我選的後來市政府認為說這個未來整個S行帶在半導體的不管是先進製程或者封設也好都可以集中在男子跟白虎對不對所以由市政府去做統籌規劃那我們也樂觀其成百事經濟部 產化局要獨找了後來給市政府目前最新進度你有沒有掌握"},{"start":166.008,"end":193.437,"text":"現在好像是地方政府已經審過基礎設施包括公設是誰來蓋基礎設施啊公設比方說這個有一些公共建築啊一些基礎設施是誰來蓋是政府來蓋還是這個政府來蓋政府來蓋我們先那個政府政府你直接講好了政府白埔現在目前還是要由地方政府來做主導"},{"start":194.119,"end":219.507,"text":"包括公共設施包括這些聯外道路都是由地方政府因為目前看起來開發單位不能看起來目前就是地方政府在做整個開發主體我是擔心財源不夠你這公共設施你要把它完善化聯外交通要把它這個很通暢這個沒有中央協助不行我覺得是不是這個市長你跟原區這個楊局長"},{"start":221.69,"end":238.755,"text":"再找市政府談一下 看需要中央哪些協助我們再請園區管理局跟市政府對接一下包括推進的進度 當然希望中央地方合作的地方那你們對接的情況再讓我知道一下因為陸族財源園區那也是我爭取的嘛 對不對有沒有最新的進度 那政府"},{"start":240.423,"end":268.403,"text":"目前來講 比較陸主園區目前確實比較沒有你要持續推動了那個地點我們已經決定了那地點我們開了好幾次會決定了未來在北高雄還是要有個財源園區北高雄財源園區現在已經成型了招商也都滿了那也是我費盡九牛二虎之力那陸主財源園區我們繼續推動好那個地熱啊地熱部分喔這個"},{"start":270.598,"end":291.446,"text":"我是覺得目前這個對地熱我覺得台灣的條件非常好但是從這個未來從1.2GW到200MW是差了6倍因為是國化會公布的 一個是行政院公布的那下調到這個200MW我是覺得一定有出現環境上的問題"},{"start":292.466,"end":318.881,"text":"包括行政流程中央地方完全不一開發區也受到很嚴重的限制產業供應鏈能量不足我很具體的要求經濟部是不是能夠建立地熱一戰式的審查機制把中央跟地方流程統一另外你要檢討國家公務員開發限制的問題以參考其他國家經驗 冰島 日本 紐西蘭"},{"start":319.701,"end":347.345,"text":"然後政府的整合需求要引進國際專警的能量就跟離岸封地一樣然後建立在地溝通的指引你要有個指引才能做在地溝通我是覺得針對我這四個建議方案我希望說三個月之內請經濟部提出一個規劃報告沒有問題上個月好那最後一個問題各位先請回請教我們公民會陳副主委"},{"start":351.556,"end":360.326,"text":"這個主席我很難得時間有超過這個問題比較重要 稍微超過一下也不會超過太離譜我只是不能無邊際的質詢"},{"start":363.934,"end":384.103,"text":"這個單一通路 單一售票通路那個 主委 有沒有買過演唱會的票有買得到嗎我不是透過這個網路買的那你透過什麼特別管道因為像 其實那個票的通路有不同嘛像古典音樂 大部分透過寬宏等等其他的網站所以我沒有用過這個網站"},{"start":385.533,"end":410.781,"text":"我是說這個流行音樂 流行HIPHOP類似這種我也沒去聽過 我跟你一樣我都聽古典樂所以票比較好買那你其他這個秒殺 所謂秒殺就是說瞬間4萬票 4萬張票就賣完了那是有特定的售票平台 對不對那它會有一定的遊戲規則 比如說最近接到很多民眾陳情"},{"start":412.148,"end":437.785,"text":"你這個特定平台因為它一直刷刷之後它認為它是一個機器在運作所以它就永久封鎖這個民眾帳號它只是買票買得比較急動作比較快就被封鎖了封鎖其他兩家也不能用等於說它沒有永遠被排除在這個買票的通路當中它只能被迫去買航空票"},{"start":439.188,"end":462.227,"text":"這種情況越來越多是 我跟各位報告一下就是說從競爭的觀點來看可能我們對這個議題關切的點是在於爭取售票代理權那個競爭是而不是說拿到代理權以後事後對消費者那塊競爭因為所有的表演都有它的獨特性對所以一旦你搶到代理權以後當然對消費者來講沒有什麼替代的選擇所以代理權要怎麼去做一個優化呢"},{"start":463.088,"end":470.341,"text":"我們還是把重點擺在那個競爭爭取那個售票代理權的部分那如果從這個角度來看目前競爭售票代理權是有問題的"},{"start":474.061,"end":496.153,"text":"我目前觀察到的是說就如我們剛剛跟委員報告還有一些其他的售票管道當然到底他們實質的情況事實上我們持續都有在做產業的瞭解那目前看起來當然委員關心一個產業再去瞭解一下瞭解三家其中只有一家有在賣比方說這個A演唱會只能A這個售票平台賣其他兩個B跟C不能賣"},{"start":498.072,"end":519.707,"text":"對 但是我們關切的點是說當他決定要由某一個平台來賣的過程當中是不是其他兩家有在搶你能不能一個月把你們的撤進方案 改進方案怎麼樣讓這個遊戲規則能夠更公平我可以給你一個目前我們對這個產業的初步瞭解給一個書面給我這個已經接到很多的陳情了在A平台他是刷了幾次就被封鎖"},{"start":520.834,"end":536.74,"text":"他們說B跟C他也不能去不能去購買所以三個平台全部被封鎖像這種這種我們這個消費者很多很多所以我可以跟針對這個目前市場的現況還有這個相關的議題給委員一個書面報告好 謝謝謝謝主席容許我發言這個超時一點點謝謝應該的謝謝邱教偉"}]}},{"id":"168800","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168800","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442befe6c12d77b6bd85ab56d7e35fc4ecfa9438ec9e4ea00b394bd1da7f89406e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:48:01 - 10:59:33","影片長度":"00:11:32","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-3院會付委）\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-7院會付委）\n（四）委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「民法第一千零三十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-6院會付委）\n（八）委員林月琴等22人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-9院會付委）\n（十二）委員黃捷等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員范雲等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第（十八）、（十九）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（二）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（四）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（五）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（六）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（七）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n【第（七）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（八）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-23","start_time":"2026-04-23T10:48:01+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-23T10:59:33+08:00","duration":692,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-5-36-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.629093750000001,"end":11.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.809718750000002,"end":12.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.83846875,"end":44.243468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.69534375,"end":42.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.47971875,"end":86.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.85284375,"end":132.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.29909375000001,"end":93.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.78846875,"end":93.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.07784375,"end":134.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.56284375,"end":134.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.37284375000002,"end":134.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.47409375,"end":159.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.94659375,"end":137.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.82034375,"end":169.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.78096875,"end":169.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.03409375,"end":169.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.11846875,"end":169.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.16909375,"end":169.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.69221875000002,"end":169.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.91159375,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.02971875,"end":170.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.04659375,"end":170.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.26596875,"end":173.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.17284375,"end":172.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.24034375000002,"end":172.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.37534375,"end":172.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.64096875,"end":175.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.65784375,"end":173.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.19346875000002,"end":199.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.35471875000002,"end":201.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.19346875000002,"end":210.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.14596875,"end":238.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.99784375000002,"end":252.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.40096875,"end":255.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.03346875000003,"end":262.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.96534375,"end":258.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.88034375,"end":264.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.78721875,"end":273.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.05159375,"end":325.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.91534375000003,"end":281.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.97846875,"end":282.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.07284375,"end":333.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.29096875000005,"end":343.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.48471875,"end":336.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.47596875000005,"end":338.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.50971875000005,"end":339.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.53846875000005,"end":348.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.56346875,"end":356.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.16971875,"end":354.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.60409375,"end":358.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.42659375,"end":357.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.20284375,"end":367.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.30409375000005,"end":358.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.20159375000003,"en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今天就是要本期要跟您探討就是有關112年憲判制第4號的判決喔它是規定兩年內必須要修法現在已經超過了修法的時間喔那我看行政院跟司法院都有各提了版本喔來去這個解釋說分居期間到底要怎麼計算那行政院版當然寫的是五年內累積分居達三年"},{"start":44.585,"end":63.692,"text":"那司法院主當然是不同居已達三年且在繼續的狀態中那剛剛我想也很多委員請教您啊就是說到底要怎麼去計算尤其是目前行政院版的就是五年內累積分居已經達三年因為民法根本沒有對分居下明確的定義"},{"start":64.552,"end":85.823,"text":"除了客觀上的不同居之外還要看主觀的意識是不是因為工作或者是照顧子女然後比如說分居但是呢分房也許同居但分房那也有因為子女分開有各項的爭議那請問一下如果連分居在民法上都沒有明確的定義連分居都講不清楚的話要怎麼計算分居的時間呢"},{"start":87.266,"end":114.231,"text":"當然我們現在分區的制度這個我們在民法上沒有很明確的一個規定但是我們在這個立法的一個說明就是1052條的分區事項我們有做一個說明就分區是指夫妻不繼續共同生活的一個定義當然這部分我想在個案上的話在一個計算上我想如果正當理由而是做一個分區當然不會去記錄嘛"},{"start":115.811,"end":133.227,"text":"那如果說是不願意附和的而任期的來持續的話那當然就是是屬於一個分居的一個入室的一個期間的一個計算那這部分我想還要帶一個我們這部分當然是跟司法院的我想司法院為什麼"},{"start":134.928,"end":156.905,"text":"對 為什麼他們會特別提就是 舉證上真的有困難尤其是對於不想離婚的那一方的話他可能就不會配合啊那你在分居的定義到底是什麼也說不清楚所以司法院他也舉了一個例子啊 就是說如果丈夫1月1號上午9點離家1月15號晚間9點離家這到底算14天還是14.5天還是15天"},{"start":160.388,"end":167.836,"text":"這個是司法院提的例子也就是說只要是法律適用的時候一定會碰到相關的問題那遇到這樣的問題應該要怎麼處理請司長"},{"start":175.906,"end":198.585,"text":"報告委員就這部分因為我們累積制確實是我們在營業小組會議的時候委員們的結論所以跟德國是不太一樣的不過在計算所謂哪一天算是完整的一日的狀況底下其實在實務上雖然沒有完全類同的狀況但是比如說像在公產案件裡面常常會有所謂的工作日的計算那一天算不算是一個工作日的計算那請問這個計算方式適用在這邊嗎"},{"start":203.34,"end":221.095,"text":"這部分我們會委託於實務的發展看實務的審理的彈性去發展出一個合理的計算的方式就跟工作室的累計計算所以為什麼司法院會提這樣就是說確實他們在舉證上的困難然後造成他們在審查上一定有相當的一個困難度嗎所以我認為就是在這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":222.156,"end":238.859,"text":"當然我個人是比較主張就是司法院的這個版本就是不同居已達三年的這個版本因為比較清楚也比較能夠操作也比較符合這個審判的這個實務那請問一下部長你覺得司法院的說法對不對你接不接受司法院的說法"},{"start":239.339,"end":263.233,"text":"我們還是以我們支持那個院版因為我們院版有經過了整個專家學者機關代表的充分的一個討論那結出來的一個意見那剛剛講的這些問題專家學者有提出嗎這部分有實務上的一個基礎一個實際案例的一個基礎那我想這部分當然大家可以所以看起來目前是沒有共識嗎"},{"start":263.953,"end":281.891,"text":"不是沒有空事所以我們才會所以我們這個才會有所以那個委召委說要辦公廳會大概廣大各位的社會的我想這看起來可能是一個小問題可是事實上會影響的程度是很大的所以我覺得可能也要我們大家再多爭取相關的意見"},{"start":283.352,"end":309.667,"text":"然後另外本時要再請教您就是最近因為媒體報導就是我們的國安諮詢委員林志傑女士有意找法務部調派檢察官協助她那而且就是引起檢方的反彈那當然我知道法務部昨天也這個大動作的出了一個這個新聞稿來駁斥這樣的一個說法那我想目前我們看到報導裡面寫的是桃園地檢署的主任檢察官馬洪華已經內定擔任"},{"start":313.69,"end":333.748,"text":"這個職務那檢察官的人事審議委員會也要在明天就會開會討論嘛所以這件事情到底是不是事實這個人未來會辦理什麼業務在哪裡上班聽誰的指揮謝謝委員那我們那個調辦室都是要經過的一個公告的一個程序依照那個行政院的"},{"start":334.509,"end":354.891,"text":"限制所屬公務人員戒掉及兼職的要點來辦理的那這個上班的地點是在檢察室那我是不是請護士長來回答上班地點還是一樣在法務部在檢察室不會去國安會我們調辦室就是因為因為他有負責的專責譬如說有打造有毒品的跟附幼的"},{"start":355.692,"end":373.653,"text":"所以他如果負責國安他就有可能去國安會嗎他一定會跟國安的單位包括國安會陸委會經濟部等有國安的安全的一個體系所以他是負責國安相關的他負責的國安的這一部分所以有可能到國安會他一定會去國安去開會啊"},{"start":374.915,"end":377.399,"text":"那既然是同一個單位為什麼要戒掉"},{"start":388.909,"end":408.64,"text":"這個因為他是檢察官所以要來辦理行政事務的當然要借調這個是依照那個我們那個借調的堅持要點來辦理的那我想這個因為這個我們那個法制在我們那個法制作業是高度的專業我想在各個基金包括司法院他們都有借調法官來辦理這些法制作業或者一些的司法的擬定嘛"},{"start":409.761,"end":427.198,"text":"部長的意思就是說他不會到國安會他不是在那上班啊上班但是業務一定會有那會不會到國安會裡去負責這個相關國安的業務代表法務部借調過去呢不會啊這個就是在法務部借調就是在借調在法務部上班啊"},{"start":427.398,"end":445.555,"text":"因為其實很多 我想很多 為什麼檢方會反彈就覺得說我們記者能力這麼短缺嘛那如果說因為這部分因為明天啦 說真的 明天就會知道了嘛因為明天你們就要開會嘛那是不是馬洪華主任檢察官是不是就是內定的是不是就是真的是他明天就會知道答案嘛明天就會知道說到底是不是內定啊那我想這個委員他們就會去做一個審議"},{"start":454.183,"end":474.639,"text":"空穴未必來風為什麼會引起這麼大的反彈我覺得不能用傳聞來當然不能用傳聞所以我就說其實這個事情很快明天就會知道答案但我們希望說基層的檢察官其實人力已經很缺乏了所以真的需要我們這個法務部的人不是只有檢察官 數據官包括我們的監守的管理人我們都非常支持法務部的人力"},{"start":481.585,"end":499.18,"text":"還要辦毒品等等的所以業務非常的膨脹尤其是蔡財部長我覺得您最近也很辛苦您的政策通通都被藉走了包括先是徐錫祥政策去擔任最高檢察署的主任檢察官然後準備要接檢察總務長"},{"start":501.041,"end":522.826,"text":"那接下來呢 你的另一個政次 這個黃士傑 他又要去選桃園市長現在呢 連黃謀信政次 都要去擔任中選會的主委所以 像這個部分 我覺得 部長您真的很辛苦耶因為 等於說您的政次 都這樣子那看起來好像感覺是 這個 呃 法務部的政次是一個升官的跳板喔"},{"start":523.266,"end":540.973,"text":"只要到來擔任政策的話幾乎都有這樣子的一個過水的一個狀態我想那個都有他的一個任務嘛那我很尊重他們職業規劃嘛那這部分謝謝委員關心對那像這樣的話政策其實它一直流動那對於您的這個法務部的業務會有什麼影響呢"},{"start":542.694,"end":569.151,"text":"我想這部分我們還是業務很努力去做一個推動基層人力也不足那現在連高層都這樣子一個狀況謝謝委員關心所以我其實覺得部長真的很辛苦你自己可能還得要見證詞的業務有些要去考察我沒辦法去參加這個也請委員這是兩回事喔部長這是兩回事喔因為剛剛翁曉琳委員講的是說您如果"},{"start":570.011,"end":573.094,"text":"之前就講的話那當然站在他的立場的話他也會評估狀況可是您是當天前一天的下午五點才通知那所以說當然他不知道所以部長我想要請教您的就是說像這個部分的話我們現在其實剛剛您也講的不管是打雜啦 茶會啦大家都非常的"},{"start":592.21,"end":595.871,"text":"我想我們就是不會就是因為次長的因為的去做其他的一個任務"},{"start":614.915,"end":624.485,"text":"一個職務的調整或者是所以表示這個政策可能不是那麼重要那個不是這樣的我們是努力來推動那也請委員多支持我們一定支持但是呢還是請部長針對這個部分我是覺得還是我們政治還是要以穩定為主那部長的話因為最近實在是太頻繁了啦"},{"start":638.539,"end":656.366,"text":"你看這個黃士傑的這個缺應該還沒補吧那現在黃謀信政次又要去這個當中選會的委員所以部長是希望我們同意黃謀信政次擔任中選會委員嗎所以你們又少一個政次囉他是一個兼任嘛是兼任喔所以他還是繼續擔任這個法務部的政次那他這樣子會不會也有一些時間要去當中選會的委員他那個是兼任我想有開會他都一定會去嘛"},{"start":668.411,"end":689.948,"text":"對啊 那就是相關的業務他可能就必須要分一些時間去做這樣子的一個調整謝謝委員體諒委員 這個法務部很辛苦還是請部長 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主席請問一下施部長有請施部長兩位人好 部長好部長任何法律的制定跟制度的設定其實再怎麼完美都不能讓人免於傷心就是都一定會有一些遺憾產生我想我們在委員會當然"},{"start":36.567,"end":40.409,"text":"不討論單一的個案我們來討論一個整體性的問題就是保護性的業務對於社工來講其實是支撐很大的"},{"start":58.925,"end":73.97,"text":"的作用啦我看我們社安網因為業務需求所以也持續在擴大可是禁用率來看呢2021年的禁用率是89.7%"},{"start":78.686,"end":95.289,"text":"去年是82.8%也就是說社安網本身一直有兩成左右的人力缺口沒有人你就支撐不了這個安全網"},{"start":98.19,"end":118.918,"text":"而且流動率也高最近因為單一的事件所以引發整體的社會氛圍我們還是必須要靠社工來支撐這個安全環境所以我們還是必須要做社工的後盾"},{"start":127.001,"end":144.721,"text":"我想請問一下因為經用率持續下降所以除了完善薪資制度這個我們講過好幾次就是現在已經社工的薪資會隨著軍工教育調整這個跟部裡面肯定一下"},{"start":145.782,"end":159.288,"text":"包括他每年增加一千可能七年就停這個要不要延長這個可能你們也正在努力走我想薪資當然是讓"},{"start":163.87,"end":185.615,"text":"讓我們投入某個行業的其中一個重要因素而不是唯一的因素有沒有辦法有其他的方法可以讓讓有實務經驗的人願意留住還有沒有其他的措施"},{"start":187.627,"end":208.521,"text":"當然跟委員說我們剛剛也提到,那麼科技的協助也是,讓他在分案或者是在管理個案的時候能夠更省工,程序也可以簡化。這個資訊系統的整合,讓他在個案的追蹤上也能夠更流暢,工作能夠簡化。"},{"start":209.942,"end":236.885,"text":"最重要的有一些剛剛前一位廖委員也在提到的這些KPI應該要檢討合適就好避免這個我跟部長溝通一下就是我一開始就講了就是說法律跟制度的設定再怎麼完善都不能讓人免於傷心就是說在這個部分當社會壓力來的時候我們有沒有辦法去支撐"},{"start":239.053,"end":260.119,"text":"社工的心理狀態社工也是人他們的心理支持我們怎麼在制度上設計一套讓他們給他們力量的制度有沒有辦法這個很難我知道"},{"start":262.979,"end":280.248,"text":"我想我們過去也都有提供一些教育訓練,可能要把這個心理支持、心理健康的部分導入,然後我們也嘗試的去把一些部件一些資源來給予這些社工支持"},{"start":282.789,"end":310.002,"text":"這可能也沒有辦法討論很多像最近其實大概我們收到很多社工想要離職甚至於有一些已經投入社工行列的社工直接告訴學弟妹不要進入這個行業這對整個國家社會來講是一個很大的傷害所以你們有沒有"},{"start":311.483,"end":337.111,"text":"或者是我直接要求你們這樣可能沒有辦法在這邊回答啦有沒有辦法做更明確的工作指引那當然我剛才也講再怎麼明確的工作指引還是沒有辦法避免憾事啦不過就是看能不能看怎麼從制度面來支持社工啦我覺得社工對於"},{"start":338.371,"end":357.393,"text":"對於社會的健全發展是很重要的一個環節那我們不支持他那誰來支持社會其實確實像委員提到的不論是這個工作指引或者是工作規範這個當然一方面這個是"},{"start":359.336,"end":381.842,"text":"這個是一正兩面定的太細你就缺乏了彈性最後反而讓它容易被刻折啦你定的太鬆有時候那個模糊空間有那也會造成另外的問題所以這個怎麼去拿捏就像這個醫師開刀也是一樣你叫他每一個步驟都把它定出來"},{"start":382.984,"end":392.624,"text":"那可能這個病人也會開始掉因為每個狀況是不一樣的所以有一個規範當然是好但是要定到什麼程度"},{"start":393.849,"end":412.327,"text":"這個是一刀兩刃所以我剛才也說了沒有要你在這邊回答不過核心的概念就是我覺得我們應該要給予社工更大的支持當作他們強烈的後盾要不然一直離職也不是辦法"},{"start":414.875,"end":421.263,"text":"好 部長請先回去聊聊今天剛好國教署來我跟國教署討論不然國教署謝謝副長請問請"},{"start":434.489,"end":451.521,"text":"副處長喔我大概想要問幾個問題第一個就是說校園安全的問題頻傳其中校園暴力的通報人數從2022年的3萬3提升到2024年6萬人次"},{"start":460.327,"end":468.399,"text":"然後其中師長跟師生間的衝突也從2018年每10萬人有47位到2023年每10萬人增加到"},{"start":477.961,"end":505.243,"text":"212位增加了4倍那當然造成學生行為偏差的原因跟學校校園暴力的原因都很多那我想要請教一下副署長當然我還是先替你講一下話就是教育本身跟教育行政還是不同的領域不過教育行政有的時候"},{"start":506.678,"end":528.517,"text":"指導者的教育的方向所以還是要問你學校老師的管教權一再被限縮以後你覺得學校的老師現在主要的角色是什麼你懂我的意思嗎懂問題嗎那請回答一下"},{"start":531.865,"end":557.125,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們就是下案通報的有關一些衝突管教的事件人數增加這個問題對老師而言坦白說整個校園的環境還有就是說我們青少年兒少所面臨的社會環境的那個影響坦白說在校園的輔導管教裡面的確是"},{"start":559.287,"end":581.453,"text":"增加很多的挑戰那基本上我們也是很希望老師能夠體察到就是社會環境影響下我們兒少的一些他們的心理健康的狀況以及他的情緒以及他的學業的表現我現在問的問題是說"},{"start":585.885,"end":596.982,"text":"老師的管教權被限縮成這個樣子你覺得老師在校園裡面的角色或工作樣態是什麼"},{"start":599.141,"end":622.566,"text":"基本上老師他的管教權基本上我們還是都有一些輔導管教的一些原理原則你們有一個輔導管教學生辦法的注意事項那我舉這裡一個例子主席不好意思我把這題問完就是說學生"},{"start":625.809,"end":635.352,"text":"這個我剛才講的這個注意辦法裡面就有正向管教譬如說我舉一個例子就是學生可能在課堂上就是老師在講課他就講話嘛"},{"start":648.004,"end":665.885,"text":"你們這邊給老師的例示是這樣子就是跟這個學生講上課時在沒有舉手或被邀請發言時請你不要講話那這是第一次那這個學生講說第二次"},{"start":667.571,"end":681.075,"text":"你再跟他講一次那第三次你可能可以這個都是你們的歷史想想看如果你很想聽課卻有同學不斷講話你會受到什麼影響這個我不評斷你們的歷史可是因為學生"},{"start":696.692,"end":721.744,"text":"每一個學生的觀念跟行為都不一樣所以這個學生一直講話老師就只能一直跟他好言相勸我簡單問一個問題會不會影響到其他學生的授教權"},{"start":723.024,"end":744.564,"text":"我想應該多少會有影響那老師只能對這個學生一再的跟他重複講說這個是不對的因為你沒有舉手然後你去想其他的學生會受到影響這個學生"},{"start":747.921,"end":762.849,"text":"當下會有能力想嗎他可能回家或者是突然在幾個月以後心智成熟了他會想可是這一節課裡面他會想嗎"},{"start":768.461,"end":793.96,"text":"基本上就是學生都是未成年嘛那我們都很期待老師還是用正向的語言正向管教的態度來對這些學生我現在就是在講說正向這個大家都支持可是管教權只剩下這樣子只剩下這樣子因為副主管要了解"},{"start":795.1,"end":817.102,"text":"學校是團體的是 團體生活不是 課堂也不是只有一對一的教學是那老師的管教權只剩下你們力士的這種模式其他學生的受教權會不會受到影響"},{"start":818.99,"end":825.135,"text":"跟各位說明當然這個是歷史那我們很希望說老師盡量用正向的語言盡量"},{"start":831.322,"end":853.095,"text":"說盡量就是還有其他的方式嘛那他大概可以怎麼做?班級經營的策略能不能發展?比如說他可以有分組嘛那分組的話其實他也有一些小的幹部班級的幹部可以協助維持一些秩序啊等等的那如果說"},{"start":854.115,"end":864.405,"text":"老師維持不了 其他的幹部維持不了有的時候同儕協助是可以的 反而是可以的有時候一些小幫手 或是小組長都不少長我並不想在這裡為難你啦因為這個問題確實是值得教育行政也好"},{"start":876.636,"end":889.875,"text":"家長也好社會大眾也好大家都要思考一下就是說讓老師的管教權限縮到極致到底對於整體教育"},{"start":891.701,"end":915.376,"text":"是好的還是會有很多更大的問題產生就像我剛才講的班級上並不是只有一個學生其他學生的受教權怎麼保障或者說學生的管教權過於限縮會不會讓老師的熱情也限縮了"},{"start":920.701,"end":927.449,"text":"這個我想你在這裡沒有辦法回答不過你們回去真的要好好思考最後一個問題最後一個問題"},{"start":933.345,"end":952.793,"text":"所以說教育部去年已經宣布提高導師的假期、行政假期跟終點費,終點費提高了百分之二十對,二十五那終點費調整的部分僅限於第一節到第七節,沒有包括第八節"},{"start":954.033,"end":975.246,"text":"那第八節呢有一種課程叫做學習輔助受輔助的對象其實他是國英數三個科目沒有通過篩選測驗的可是呢你們調的是一到七節第八節這個反而沒有所以現在變成第一到七節正常的上班時間的終點費比"},{"start":979.788,"end":995.902,"text":"學習輔助的課後輔導的重點會高這個你們回去趕快做調整這個部分我們也在陸續的研議有一些如果是屬於有一些是家長必須要分擔的我們現在不討論那個"},{"start":998.024,"end":1016.203,"text":"我現在討論的是學習輔助的這一個部分這個部分是家長免付費是為了要讓學生趕上進度的那你一到七節的中年費高於這個會影響老師投入的熱情好不好"},{"start":1018.766,"end":1024.193,"text":"而且也顯然不公平啦其實人家運動部就比你們快一點運動部已經把第八節的"},{"start":1033.55,"end":1043.124,"text":"就是運動成績優秀學生的學習輔助計畫它已經提高到540元那你們現在是450元"},{"start":1051.74,"end":1076.033,"text":"這個差距趕快把它拉起來我們會研議好不好那有關我剛剛講的老師的管教權的範圍我覺得真的大家都要再重新思考一下好不好好 這個部分我們再來研究好 謝謝主席好 謝謝謝謝楊耀遠發言我們現在休息十分鐘"}]}},{"id":"168809","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168809","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be54421580b8291d383b2347e947452b276263a9438ec9e4ea00b31e0ef36d357a05ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"11:33:13 - 11:37:52","影片長度":"00:04:39","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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智昌好就剛才針對土石的採集 剛才問也有說明當然我知道所有原住民我大概都非常的關心這個議題我們是來自好山好水的地方常常看到水用不到水 看到土用不到土"},{"start":35.595,"end":45.027,"text":"那昨天我延續昨天的問題就是希望 因為昨天沒有得到確確的答案希望苗栗 南投 屏東 台東 花蓮 宜蘭這幾個減水沒有到達90%以上的這個縣市能夠增設我們的工作人員 比如說"},{"start":52.857,"end":80.81,"text":"因為他有時候要申請門牌有的時候要申請一些同意書可能都要勞駕我們地區的鄉公所來幫忙自來水的業務可是在這個廣大的地區有時候一個鄉的範圍比綻花縣還大所以我想說希望在自來水的這個業務上面能夠多多用心接下來進到今天主題我們針對第三條第六款第七款第八款我們都有修正理由"},{"start":82.287,"end":110.608,"text":"最針對海域的部分希望是對傳統文化記憶跟自用來使用就是非營利行為第二個就是第七款的部分就是免申請就是說如果是用在傳統文化部落的建築比如說機關、學校、教會、公共設施的話應該是免申請然後它的原則就是希望善用原住民族保留的資源因為是根據我們現在原住民族基本法第十九條的第三款"},{"start":111.629,"end":123.927,"text":"及時下來做修正最後呢就是希望他的數量部分我可以考次長我們莫拉克崩災我們高屏溪那個流域的那個土方大概多少嗎"},{"start":125.526,"end":141.069,"text":"那個將近差不多超過2億對我剛剛看的資料是2.6億立方其實我們就看到這樣子因為我們就在那個地區看到那麼多砂石可是像我們原住民要使用任何一塊石頭可能我們看那個"},{"start":142.23,"end":170.638,"text":"動輒政法所以我們今天修法的目的其實就是希望說政府能夠重視我們在地部落在地居民他其實是可以部分利用所以這個數量的部分是常常讓人恐懼就是因為我不知道今天我是載了一卡車還是一個多少公噸的一個土方會違法或怎麼樣所以我們希望能夠公告他的數量然後是使用我們救災啊或者是房屋修葬聚會所降的一個"},{"start":171.338,"end":189.909,"text":"或者是修正道路做一個優先的採集是委員所提到的這個部分我們在今天參加會議的裡面我們也看到其他包括委員有修正的這個動議提出來那我們希望說未來在土石的採取的部分只要是不牡蠣"},{"start":191.01,"end":208.485,"text":"只要不是惡意然後去迫害國土的部分特別是在原住民地區如何踐行原住民基本法我們可以透過這次的修法裡面來大家共同討論是不是給我們一點時間我們來跟各個提案的委員來進行相關的這個溝通"},{"start":210.066,"end":238.516,"text":"最後一個數據參考就是這是馬太安的部分就是馬太安的那個殺死量也超過6600萬可是到目前為止清出的那個數量也還不到100萬公噸超過了嗎清出來到離開河川的差不多超過2000萬超過2000萬那我的意思是說其實這些都對部落來講其實都是很可惜如果說可以用在地方重建的話我是不是有一個具有數字可以讓大家參考"},{"start":239.406,"end":257.486,"text":"是 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藥物屬就是屬"},{"start":155.629,"end":169.46,"text":"那個你們衛福部的責任啦食藥署就是要針對這個部分可是很清楚的針對龍葵檢的檢驗那在我們台灣目前只有兩個機構"},{"start":171.721,"end":199.735,"text":"我們目前有六個機構可以檢驗啦又有多少了嗎沒有就是有兩個是認證的其他也是都可以檢驗沒有認證的我們敢給他做嗎而且每一次檢驗檢驗龍葵你知道嘛你是專家每一次檢驗需要五到七天的時間三天三天好就算你三天我們每次進口啊這個頓數我們有百分之"},{"start":200.575,"end":226.37,"text":"我們有進口的數量是佔高達15萬噸如果以顆數算那是數百萬顆上百萬顆以上那我請問這麼大的量你要來檢驗就算說檢驗一次要三天在你看只有兩家機構之下我們這個檢驗的量能夠嗎"},{"start":229.565,"end":250.696,"text":"是這樣子我們現在是用抽驗的方式所以像從113年到現在總共馬鈴薯進來1652批所以我們就是抽2到10%目前我們是檢驗的61批大概4%左右那這個部分事實上量的目前是依風險"},{"start":251.516,"end":273.154,"text":"那如果有需要的話我們會再加驗現在量能就已經不足了喔不是不足 我們本來就是我們如果查到我們如果查到發芽我們現在不是整批退欸不是了嘛應該是說驗到龍奎檢超過200批驗我們整批退他一批如果有三個貨櫃 三個貨櫃都退"},{"start":275.115,"end":299.518,"text":"對啦 我是說 但是如果以農業署那個檢驗的方式啦現在沒有檢驗 如果是以發芽 以目測這個標準你沒有整必要 所以量會增大嘛對 鮑偉 如果說是有看到 就是農業部有看到有發芽的部分那他們會把它剔除 那我們會針對這一批的部分你放心啦 農業部看不到的啦"},{"start":299.878,"end":306,"text":"我們會針對這一批去做檢驗我已經認為必須全部寄望於你而且實質下去驗為什麼好你現在說我現在就跟你講投一關用龍奎檢驗好這是第一項第二那之後再來就進來啦"},{"start":324.581,"end":338.596,"text":"進來就是加工用的這些變成後端茶葉後端茶葉就是用食品工廠他們自己的管理或者我們怎麼樣去抽茶"},{"start":339.136,"end":358.955,"text":"但是在這一個部分我想莊市長你很清楚我們國內的食品工廠加工廠參差不齊我們都會定期去查核定期查核 你查核的量能是怎麼樣我請問你查核的量能是怎麼樣可不可以請市長說明"},{"start":361.84,"end":389.969,"text":"我跟你講我們說我們這一次同意同意說加工用的馬鈴薯那這樣子就是說我們不整批退啦我們說比照日本的標準很好光是日本在後端這個加工處理方面他要做這個薯條啊他們就必須要第一個他們有指定的工廠日本政府自己下去指定"},{"start":391.721,"end":403.147,"text":"要5A級的食品廠才可以做而且特定的品牌要經過日本政府同意第二個他們要有一定的機器設備這個機器設備啊這個機器設備是可以"},{"start":412.572,"end":431.537,"text":"這個機器設備是可以具備它高度自動化的色澤與形狀辨識機器它是這樣子 色澤跟形狀自動辨識才能夠進入它的加工程序我們有這樣的要求嗎"},{"start":435.753,"end":452.971,"text":"報告委員對於我們國內的食品加工廠我們本身就有要求要去做一些業者第一個就是業者本身的設施設備本來就要符合相關的規定那在於他開始製造的之前他本身除了要自主的"},{"start":453.311,"end":455.192,"text":"我們中央跟地方的稽查第一點都量能不足"},{"start":480.407,"end":499.927,"text":"那這個我不怪中央說是不是監督配合不力不是因為各地方政府這樣子的案量也太大了在我們食安法通過之前在這一個部分我們地方政府實在是力有未待啦好了那這樣我這次就只問你就光這個書"},{"start":502.647,"end":523.967,"text":"這個馬鈴薯的部分馬鈴薯最重要百分之百加工的就是薯條嘛我現在就問你嘛就光是日本他們說的必須要有色澤與形狀辨識設備這個部分有或沒有我告訴你我問民間的這個相關食品加工廠"},{"start":525.339,"end":547.613,"text":"他們連聽都沒聽過啦 人家都很老實回答承認嘛那所以啊 我們要 我們說我們輸入我們的條件要比照日本那我們也相對也要有比照日本的設備跟工廠這樣的機制才能比照不是嗎"},{"start":549.212,"end":570,"text":"委員您所關心的就是你只說人家他們進口他們拿一些可以寬一點可以輕鬆一點這是好喔這對大家各國之間貿易的往來這對我們台灣也不是不利我們對人家進口的友善方便通關相對他們也要對我們方便"},{"start":570.881,"end":577.816,"text":"在農產品的部分但是食品健康的部分怎麼辦還有我再問你莊市長你是專家"},{"start":580.083,"end":597.889,"text":"那如果製成薯條或薯餅以後後端你有辦法再去查驗農窺檢嗎不可能啦在傳統市場或是像全聯超商這邊我們會去抽驗還有原料端我們會去抽驗那個已經經過油炸"},{"start":604.218,"end":630.764,"text":"經過徵組經過N項程序以後我看我們不管食藥署或地方政府衛生局連一件也不會去查啦報告委員如果這個產品進入到工廠工廠裡面的產線從一開始我們工廠有稽查專案我們在去查的時候我現在就請問你可能我問的跟你問的不太一樣嘛我就問你你現在是不是趕快通令這些有做"},{"start":633.106,"end":645.843,"text":"馬鈴薯加工的這些工廠請問他們有沒有說自動化的色澤與形狀辨識設備有沒有好不好委員您關心的是選別機那就是一個包括它的形狀"},{"start":648.607,"end":663.485,"text":"比照日本的標準選擇機裡面包括一開始原料去做一些選別然後包括設則部分那這個部分我們可以再去你可以再跟工廠我們會再跟工廠確認但是基本上這是一個工廠的基本設施設備那麼那個莊市長"},{"start":666.248,"end":687.362,"text":"還有最後我請教一個問題就是關於我們重要的藥品的管制因為最近國際上有一些紛擾比較不安先前我們在進口藥品的部分就已經碰到一些干擾那這個問題就是說過去長期以來我們都沒有主動去查核這些重要藥品的量"},{"start":688.603,"end":712.399,"text":"能的這個部分結果這個部分我們都是讓藥商來向我們他們反而是藥商主動必須跟我們報備那我們反而沒有反向去主動要求我們有立法是他們一定要跟我們報備如果說六個月之內有缺藥什麼他一定要跟我們通報這個事實上是有法可以罰這個是讓他來報備我們沒有主動去查查"},{"start":718.743,"end":743.982,"text":"我認為針對主要的藥品我們會去查工廠也會針對藥商報備來的那現在怎麼會這些重要的藥品有缺貨呢主要有時候是因為突然它原料有缺貨或是說他們工廠要改建那這其實有時候是就是會發生類似這樣的狀況這個我下次好好跟你談一談謝謝你 謝謝謝謝王世堅"}]}},{"id":"168807","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168807","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442a289be5bf713390f47e947452b276263a9438ec9e4ea00b3243cac83bf874b865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:26:14 - 11:32:56","影片長度":"00:06:42","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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首先我站在這裡是因為我提出了土石採取法第三條的修正草案我想先謝謝今天的洪玉祥召委因為我在110年 也就是上一屆我進入到立法院我就有提案 那這個會期一開始我在113年我也有提案"},{"start":49.451,"end":65.882,"text":"那我修正的最核心的目的是為了要落實原基法第19條賦予原住民族在傳統文化既宜或者是自用非營利的前提之下我們依法可以採取土石免金許可的權利"},{"start":67.003,"end":82.459,"text":"那這樣的一個版本呢其實一直到今天能夠重見天日我很希望有機會順利的三讀通過所以我在這邊就是想要就教一下次長因為您之前也擔任過水利署的署長"},{"start":83.32,"end":98.958,"text":"所以我相信您对于这些河川的土石也好或者是山上的土石其实你应该是有很多的认识也有很多的情感那其实在我们的原基法第19条刚才我有提过了就是有特别保障"},{"start":99.398,"end":119.766,"text":"原住民基于非盈利传统文化既以自用这样的一个精神可以来依法从事这些有关的规定所以呢这几年在立法院不论是野保法矿业法等等的法因为原本原基法有规定说他要定定很多的执法可是呢"},{"start":120.586,"end":148.34,"text":"大部分都是很慢很慢這些年才慢慢的進入到母法裡面那同樣的今天在土石採取法裡面呢也有這樣的一個困擾為什麼呢因為我們也有看到其實我們有依這個規定有做一個土石採取法它有依據第二條第三條就是有一個採取土石免申辦土石採取許可辦法"},{"start":150.561,"end":155.045,"text":"可是對我們族人來講這個是缺乏對傳統行為的直接豁免所以就會成為我們的一個文化保存的絆腳石我舉個例子來講他因為沒有明定於母法就會產生第一個就是他的法律位階會不足第二個就是他採取總量也不敷需求"},{"start":175.922,"end":185.668,"text":"那第三個呢就是法規有很多也都不一致那因為我們的土石採取法呢它比較落後就會變成像是礦業法那邊已經修了採礦可以採土石卻處處受限這樣的一個怪現象那我這邊我們看一下像按照現行的辦法的話這些很漂亮的石板屋呢其實它根本不是辦法裡面所講的像"},{"start":203.88,"end":228.751,"text":"每個人有10立方或者是用於機關學校公共設施總量30立方他根本沒有辦法蓋出我們要的這樣的一個石板屋所以目前我們在很多地方包括石板屋我們也都一直都在努力如何幫助我們的傳統建物石板屋可以取得建造"},{"start":229.631,"end":253.851,"text":"法雖然改了 可是建築師不願意簽證所以我們依然沒有辦法讓石板屋取得這樣的一個建造 實照那我覺得一個族群 如果他的一些傳統文化 他的律法被否定掉就是等同踐踏他的主權 就好比我明明可以叫塞代 那我為什麼一定要被迫信一個漢姓"},{"start":255.672,"end":275.467,"text":"那這個就是否定我自己文化上姓名的律法被迫來使用他族群訂定的一個律法所以我們很希望說今天昭緯排了這樣的一個法那我也針對土石採取法的第三條徵訂了第七款第八款那我特別高興的就是過去從110年基於族人的陳情那我們有"},{"start":280.29,"end":298.261,"text":"做這樣的一個草案那今天呢終於能夠排審那也有很多的原住民立委呢也在今天就是能夠一同的參與用修正動議的方式那我真的是很希望說在這個部分我們能夠支持那不曉得次長您的看法你就簡單的做一個態度的表示"},{"start":300.802,"end":313.697,"text":"是 非常同意委員的見解那也感謝委員在過去長期一段時間來關注因為法律的一個不完備造成在執行面上有很多的擔憂的問題那原來的辦法裡面雖然說有列舉了"},{"start":317.682,"end":338.035,"text":"但是這些還是有一個數量所需那這個數量所需讓使用者的時候在使用上面非常的小心謹慎甚至不願意去用所以今天委員所提到的第三條的修正案裡面包括第一項第七款第八款這個部分可以促進我們原住民地區原住民"},{"start":339.639,"end":353.88,"text":"在進行相關的修繕的時候會更好甚至不是不一定是原住民只要在原住民地區來修繕相關的這個費用的部分的話我們認為這合乎說就地使用的一個原則因為我們這一次"},{"start":355.222,"end":374.56,"text":"土石采取法提出来的修正我们看到很多的平地的地区因为蓄意磨砺盗烂采造成国土的危害这个我们必须要加以遏止但是对于土石的正当的使用甚至是符合原住民基本法的部分经济部都非常的支持"},{"start":376.347,"end":399.419,"text":"那謝謝次長我真的是在這邊希望說我們這個法修法能夠順利的通過因為對我們原住民族而言這是我們祖靈的建築基石對於文化的延續非常的重要所以在這邊呢就是僅代表我們原住民族人跟次長說聲謝謝也跟今天的趙偉主席說聲謝謝好那我們一起努力好我們謝謝這一個武力皇"}]}},{"id":"168806","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168806","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442354caa030eec6ef947e947452b276263a9438ec9e4ea00b3913bf80977d0b5285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:16:36 - 11:26:10","影片長度":"00:09:34","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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謝謝主席那我們是不是有請公平會主委請公平會陳主委主委好好"},{"start":27.045,"end":41.866,"text":"這個Uber Eats要收購這個Hupenda那當時是失敗那現在換成Grub這家公司要來收購那Grub這家公司勒經過"},{"start":46.294,"end":60.322,"text":"經過一些市場的一個調查基本上他雖然是在東南亞但是他背後的集團事實上也是他是在新加坡創立的那他的2016年的時候他的母公司就被收購"},{"start":61.243,"end":89.749,"text":"那到後來的話事實上會發現他的內部結構事實上也跟包括微軟就是說跟UberEat還是有高度的一個關係所以在股權結構上來看的話你包括有微軟有UberEat那所以Grab跟UberEat基本上可以算是一個蠻有相關的公司那他現在要來收購"},{"start":91.869,"end":120.918,"text":"收購撲偏打後會不會未來也是造成我們整個外送市場還是由單一企業然後去壟斷或者是寡占的一個情況跟委員報告一下就是這個案子跟之前那個案子是不太一樣因為之前那個案子結合以後市佔率達九成那當然知道委員關切的是說這個案子裡面其實背後真正的控制公司可能跟Uber也有一定程度的關係那這種實質的控制力是我們在審查這個案子我們會去注意到的"},{"start":121.158,"end":150.332,"text":"就是我們對於這個彼此之間的合縱聯橫股權的結構持股會不會對結合後的事業的經營產生實質的影響力這個我們在結合審查的時候會去注意那事實上我們現在也在要求他補件啦就是相關的資料我們來判斷說就是委員關切的這個議題是啊 因為我們現在就是擔心嘛 對不對就是說看起來UberEats去收購FuPenta這件事失敗了結果他們現在轉了是要變得也不是說他們轉啦就是說另外就跑出一家叫Grab"},{"start":151.132,"end":177.091,"text":"那這個Club又它的大股東 最大股東就是Uber Eats那又跟Uber Eats共同的股東就是它的微軟集團從這樣看起來就是說 他們蠻想要控制讓這個市場一致化那一致化之後對於外送者的權利 基本上我覺得未必是最好的"},{"start":178.476,"end":195.4,"text":"這個是應該去注意的外送平台外送員保護的部分我想勞動部最近都有一些新的法規出來在保障外送員的權益我們這個案子的審查大概還是會在平台之間的競爭還有對這個整個外送市場的競爭影響程度我現在反而就是以後就沒有競爭了"},{"start":199.843,"end":225.382,"text":"競爭對消費者除了對於他們的聘用的外送員之外就是消費者的權利那消費者的權利很容易因為沒有競爭然後變得單一化然後就被犧牲所以我們關切的就是委員這邊所談到的這個13.07%這個所謂的最大股東的部分他到底有沒有可能在前後被濫用那這個我們需要有一些具體跟客觀的事證來做一些研判"},{"start":226.062,"end":248.471,"text":"因為未來會怎麼做往往是必須要有一點預測所以我們必須要從過去的證據還有它現在經營的策略我們做整體性的判斷跟評估有沒有這樣的可能性因為基本上法律並不禁止事業之間可以跨公司來持股所以如果我們要以不能夠單純以說跨公司持股這件事情就一定是有濫用的情況我們後續那個行為面的調查還是很重要的"},{"start":248.931,"end":275.517,"text":"不然我們會盡量積極的對我可以理解你說的啦但是這樣看起來就是他們很想看起來是他們想把它單一化所以我了解委員的關係好沒關係下一個議題下一個議題這個深層式的AI這個涉及到廣告不死那尤其是我們現在在臉書可以看到好多的那一種廣告"},{"start":276.577,"end":304.898,"text":"好多的廣告他現在大概臉書平台或是一些不只是臉書啦這些我們用的一個社群軟體他們投放的廣告大概都會去檢視你的大數據然後去播放說你可能會要哪些廣告但是我舉啦現在我蠻常看到一些手遊的廣告他的手遊的廣告他的大概都是用生成式AI去產生的結果他的廣告內容跟他的遊戲內容完全不一樣"},{"start":306.444,"end":335.479,"text":"差很多啦廣告的那個大概看起來都很好玩的感覺然後一把它下載後就發現又差很多那這只是手遊的部分喔那接下來可能還涉及到的食品或者是涉及到的一些像女性的話可能會投射一些化妝品保養品的廣告都用AI生成式的那這種生成式AI的廣告到底需不需要對外界負責任呢"},{"start":336.159,"end":363.576,"text":"我想這個問題是一個很好的問題我們有參考一些國外的做法國外有一些國家他要求揭露通常他的揭露是從一些監管面的角度來處理譬如說剛剛委員談到醫藥衛生甚至於像這個防炸等等可能相關主管機關會要求你要揭露AI但是大部分都集中在特定的產業而且大部分都不是競爭主管機關來做那我們來我們如果我們要考慮要不要強制AI揭露這裡面因為公平會一旦要求"},{"start":364.196,"end":392.69,"text":"它的影響面是全面性的大概所有業者都要遵守這個揭露所以這個影響層面會比較大所以我們會審慎去評估這樣的需要啦當然我們可能會跟跨部會來做一些協商主委就我目前我去過辦公室整理啦像歐盟是直接用立法要求就是從今年起所有生成式AI就是要標記它是生成式AI那在中國的部分基本上也有要求要標示那"},{"start":394.369,"end":411.983,"text":"南韓現在針對這個身衛廣告也是準備要修法要做標示那我們目前還是比較設定在公部門必須要這樣做就民間的部分台灣都還沒有走到像我剛舉例的這些但是我覺得畢竟"},{"start":413.32,"end":429.728,"text":"AI產生的就是AI產生嘛你要求他標示這件事情並不會對於他想要做這個廣告的人產生不必要的困擾因為他就是AI產生的啊所以我們只要求他必須要講清楚你這一個廣告你是透過AI產生的"},{"start":431.198,"end":445.971,"text":"只是單純這樣的一個標誌,對人的困擾不多,但是對社會者可以擬憑很多不必要的誤會或者是一些過度看到美好的AI生成式的畫面產生的誤解"},{"start":448.615,"end":461.643,"text":"所以我想委員提醒我們會審慎的考慮我們回去會評估一下不過就跟委員報告一下剛剛委員提到那些國家就是我剛剛講的他基本上可能是基於某些特定產業的需求打造房屋所以他有一些非競爭主管機關產業主管機關來做一個揭示的要求"},{"start":464.364,"end":492.962,"text":"那公平會要不要做這樣一個揭露的要求就像剛剛跟委員報告了一旦我們要求了那應該是全面性市場所以我們必須要審慎的去評估當然過程當中我們會跟不同的機關之間我們會做一些跨機關的一個協商的了解主委應該就是這樣啦我現在也想不到說全面性的話會有對社會產生怎樣的不必要因為我在想這件事你剛才講我在想所以說全面性要求說你這樣的一個影片它是AI產生的那我們就把它揭露"},{"start":494.189,"end":514.259,"text":"阿這個會影響到怎樣嗎可能一些動畫片啦電影齁要標示這個比較奇怪而已因為業者在設計廣告的時候有他的一些創意或是業務需求的考慮這一點我們要進一步了解才能知道就是我要求他揭露以後對於他這個廣告的效果的影響因為乍聽之下的確像委員所講的"},{"start":517.46,"end":525.864,"text":"應該不會有太大的法尊的成本但是是說業者就是想像上這件事情對他們的廣告效果可能會打折廣告效果打折這件事對"},{"start":530.754,"end":540.722,"text":"只是對企業有差 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謝謝謝謝主席 有請主席長跟沈記長謝謝 請主席長跟沈記長"},{"start":15.953,"end":44.047,"text":"委員好兩位早安我想延誕了235天那2026的總預算終於互違了那也是今年的總預算從去年的9月1號送進立法院一直被拖到政協會過後終於在前天4月21號互違我想這個是民主化以來在立法院的頭一招"},{"start":45.188,"end":67.673,"text":"那立委要在基數基數的這個會期裡頭審議算這個也嚴重的打亂就是立法院以往向來的一個常態一個會期主要審法案一個會期主要審議算的節奏那在這裡我想特別特別在跟那個沈機長在做一個"},{"start":70.763,"end":91.539,"text":"請教 審計法第21條就是說審計機構或審計人員對一個機關違背預算或有關法令的不當支出得事前拒絕或事後剔除追繳這個是不是就是說如果預算花超過的話要不要追回"},{"start":92.987,"end":97.631,"text":"因為我們的財務租蓄是在這個預算範圍裡面來執行我們是希望因為現在六月才要審五月現在開始在審到六月才會通過因為預計在六月通過我是希望當時因為我們的預算法有一條是說你可以按照上年度的執行情形來執行"},{"start":118.309,"end":126.917,"text":"可是我已經花了 超過了對 我是希望在預算在立法院審議這個問題各位立法委員在審議的時候希望能了解這一點能夠給行政部門當時的依照規定來做的要不要追回 沈局長因為原則上如果立法院決定的話"},{"start":139.75,"end":162.39,"text":"我們是會給審計意見說你這個是超過你的預算數這是我們在預算監督預算執行的基本原則沈記長要不要追回當然是基本原則應該是我們會追這件事情好 謝謝要追回沈記長你請回"},{"start":165.595,"end":189.408,"text":"我想這個先動資的一個預算動資的一個預算然後被大砍過頭了那我在這裡請教主計長像你今天就是在未來你要省的一個總預算我們的公務預算裡頭有編了一個國外的理會46萬1千可是去年是44萬5千"},{"start":191.889,"end":206.492,"text":"那如果被砍到比去年的44萬5千還低的話那你怎麼樣支應還是要勞勢動眾又去追加預算你打算怎麼做所以這個部分我們也懇求就像院長講的"},{"start":207.233,"end":227.863,"text":"希望能夠盡量來寬裂預算因為我們因應中東一個戰爭本身有很多的一個在預算還沒有追加之前它也有很多一個業務的一個需求所以必須要從原有的經費去做調整支應所以這個部分如果像去年一樣也是譬如說去年像出國禮會是大款60%是啊 媒選也大款60%"},{"start":232.125,"end":255.311,"text":"那其實監察院他是全部砍97%幾乎只剩下人士會那所以這個部分本身支援是有困難所以我們再三的請求也再三的拜託各位委員這方面能夠寬烈預算讓我們好能夠來因應中東戰爭的一個相關的一個整個動漲措施的一個調適那另外呢"},{"start":255.771,"end":274.509,"text":"我們也會辦追加但是追加可能就是在比較後面才會來辦理追加或者是特別預算這個部分也必須要等到行政院正確性的一個做決定那才能夠去做說到底是要辦理怎麼樣所以你還是要看行政院就是說怎麼樣的下一個指示"},{"start":275.169,"end":301.965,"text":"那如果你從預算法第54條裡頭它規定的非常清楚預算沒有通過以前只能依照上年度執行的執行數來執行可是我們如果對照那個會計的業報我們發現今天執行數比去年的執行數高那主席長你要解釋一下這怎麼辦還有就是說本席看來這個是不是"},{"start":303.767,"end":326.154,"text":"針對的中央政府在總預算還沒有通過以前還是中東戰爭這些元素以前你已經花了比同期更多的錢那這裡非常清楚就是說你不僅累積了分配數去年增加就是年累積數累積實現數都比去年增加那你要怎麼處理"},{"start":327.353,"end":347.445,"text":"所以這個部分就是讓公務人員行政執行方面感到為難的一個地方所以我們一直在說就是這個部分就請貴院還有來能夠儘速把總預算來審查通過就要審啊就要審了啊但是也請監獄不要刪減那如果像這樣子這個法條又是硬梆梆的定在這個地方的時候然後你們都已經是"},{"start":357.631,"end":379.301,"text":"超支了那怎麼辦我要回答我的問題是是我要跟委員報告我們是以整年度來看而不是說一個季啦所以只要整年度我沒有超過那個那個原來所謂的決算數的這個部分所以我們現在是到將近第二季"},{"start":379.921,"end":407.29,"text":"你是用整年度嘛那我告訴你的是同期嘛所以說你就是回到整年度那主席長我再請教你如果你今年度的預算數比去年度的預算數還高的話那今年度的總預算案到目前沒有過理論上應該所有動資的上限應該是比去年實際執行的一個預算那個額度"},{"start":408.17,"end":432.726,"text":"額度還會那個更低才對對因為你會受益節食嘛你不敢亂開嘛可是法定的義務收支可以不可以刪如果中央政府法定的義務收支的事項譬如說他人事會他的債務支出他的社會保險社會津貼然後還有最嚴重的軍公教育優存的利息補貼你可以刪嗎"},{"start":434.233,"end":463.373,"text":"這原則上依法律義務的一個部分我們希望委員能夠盡量支持因為這個刪了將來也是必須依法必須依規定再編列回來可是如果有些委員支持有些委員不支持的話那怎麼辦所以這樣整個造成一個行政程序的一個重複因為為什麼這個被刪減的部分依法律義務我們必須再回編所以這個回編的部分就要再一次的一個追加預算或者是透過另外年度的一個預算再來補齊"},{"start":464.693,"end":488.262,"text":"是嘛,所以我想大家非常辛苦我如果用一個那個疾管署的案例齁你看環疫的預算95億至少被立法院通案三減三減大概3783萬喔這個都是非常嚴重的一個問題喔所以我想就是也在這裡齁就是跟審計處跟組計處齁就是"},{"start":490.603,"end":510.551,"text":"拜託啦,這個當然大家都非常的辛苦,尤其在這一年多以來大家非常辛苦,大家就是要省預算了,你們大概要想出一個比較妥善的一個說明的一個方式啦我們再三懇請貴院能夠手下留情,能夠寬烈預算,謝謝"},{"start":511.851,"end":529.944,"text":"主席,五年辦一次的榮譽木普茶是不是已經開始了?是已經開始了嗎?從四月十號就開始了那要到六月三十號我想跟主席提醒,你來自於台南"},{"start":531.545,"end":555.598,"text":"台南是所有我們這一次縣市調查的一個指標我們的農戶是最多的是超過了11萬喔這個11萬是占全國普查91萬戶中的12%那你在台南投下了多少資源做多少的一個宣導"},{"start":558.245,"end":584.323,"text":"我們這個宣導是這樣像各縣市的部分是由各縣市去辦理那我們自己本身也有編列1600萬在整個做農林漁業普查的部分來做一個宣導所以這個部分我們今年就是五年一次的農林漁業普查我們除了加強人力的一個改善還有一些系統的一個改善你丟了多少的一個預算在這個全國最大的一個直轄市"},{"start":585.063,"end":587.51,"text":"因為這個其實是非常重要的"},{"start":590.543,"end":607.13,"text":"一千六百多萬但是縣市我們也有補助六十萬那地方政府呢地方政府我們就補助六十萬美容區公所、鄉公所他甚至提供有摸財品的一個誘因這個當然就是說要大家認真的去重視龍一木的一個普查聽說獎金是十萬塊"},{"start":617.874,"end":619.655,"text":"我們也有提供獎金100萬,頭獎是10萬那100萬分配到全國去對,也有提供這樣子主席長,這個龍魚木普茶對農民有很多的好處"},{"start":633.985,"end":652.849,"text":"所以我們我來自於就是那個農業的那個選區所以我對這件事情非常非常的一個重視我希望就是說你能更加精準的配置補助的經費然後也對症下藥就是切工還有這個老龍那個人力老化的這一些問題還有產銷的一個失衡"},{"start":657.03,"end":678.599,"text":"還有避免果件傷容改善在地的農業基礎的一個特別的依據然後跟著詐騙集團來了現在現有存在的你要大家去網路上來做普查的一個調查那成效好不好"},{"start":680.512,"end":707.465,"text":"目前是成效很好目前為什麼會成效很好就是說會在網路上報的大概都是青龍青龍已經報了差不多了然後詐騙詐騙已經跟著來了所以我們希望就是說你書面報告就是說這個你們怎麼預防這一個詐騙好不好給本席知道好謝謝我們感謝謝謝我們會員委員的詢詢我們休息"}]}},{"id":"168804","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168804","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be54420e8c35a86215ad7547e947452b276263a9438ec9e4ea00b3edfb78fde1fab8a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:09:31 - 11:16:22","影片長度":"00:06:51","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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但是就是因為廣告有時候會涉及到專業你也要跟衛福部要橫向溝通啊你不能每一次我問公平會什麼事都是別人的事跟你公平會都沒有關係因為有些廣告涉及到專業的判斷我就問你嘛公平會會對這些廣告開罰嗎"},{"start":187.609,"end":194.933,"text":"你要怎麼專業判斷他只要放上瘦瘦真三個字他就已經是不實廣告了因為他本身就不應該向大眾廣告也不能夠網路販售嘛你連這個都沒辦法嗎不是因為涉及到我們機關之間已經有分工的協議啦所以這個就只有衛福部不能罰你不能罰你不能罰你有這個明文規定我們之間有分工的協議怎麼分工"},{"start":212.884,"end":228.116,"text":"就是基本上涉及到醫療衛生的這些然後所以他還要再設一個單位去檢舉是嗎因為衛福部本身醫法就可以採取不實廣告跟醫療衛生有關的不實廣告所以你這個都不歸你管對 他們如果覺得說這個不是跟他們有關的他們會把案子再送回來"},{"start":228.496,"end":242.231,"text":"我就問瘦瘦身的廣告它裡面就宣稱免醫生處方私訊有現貨而且保證不復胖不用運動也能瘦主委本席很清楚這一劑針類在醫學上有其療效但這種"},{"start":246.155,"end":256.741,"text":"誘導民眾跳過遺囑宣稱不用運動也能受淡化藥物副作用風險的行銷方式有沒有違反公平交易法第21條虛偽不實或引人錯誤的疑慮"},{"start":261.516,"end":279.885,"text":"一樣就跟委員報告這個是涉及到醫療是不是有我就問你有沒有如果他所做的事情根據醫療專業判斷是做不到的當然這個可能都不是廣告只是說那個採除的時間不會在這邊所以你公平會這個也不能做那個也不能做我就不曉得說公平會存在的"},{"start":283.872,"end":303.81,"text":"價值是什麼我就講啊 即便藥物本身有效但是不用處方就能買保證不負胖這難道不是典型的不實廣告嗎它是不實 但是採取的機關不會是公平會啊那否則你公平會只能做什麼我告訴你 我每一次問你就好像這個AI"},{"start":305.322,"end":320.497,"text":"妳說這可能要速發布啦 什麼什麼我每一次問妳 妳都告訴我說那可能要什麼什麼其他部會來做那妳存在的意義是什麼 妳告訴我我們出名很多不是廣告不是廣告是我們大宗的業務那妳今年處理多少 妳說"},{"start":323.086,"end":346.645,"text":"你也不知道嘛 你還要問人一百多件就是一百多件 你覺得這個比例符合嗎你知道現在幾月嗎現在已經四月底了一天都不止一百多件了就是跟委員報告一天都不止一百多件了我們其實不是只有跟委務部我們跟很多其他主管機關都有不時廣告的分工啦是 我知道 所以我的意思是你們根本沒有什麼"},{"start":347.901,"end":370.936,"text":"功能嘛 你們的功能到底是什麼所以我建議你們要盡速的主動跟Meta跟Line這些平台上溝通建立一套違規廣告的快速通報下架機制我們不可以讓這些社群平台淪為違法廣告的溫床公平會到底能不能主動出擊呢"},{"start":372.2,"end":383.107,"text":"剛剛委員所談到這些措施其實像樹化部他們都有一些機制我覺得你公平會要努力證明你有存在的價值你知道嗎我每次問你說實在我已經有一點懶得來問公平會要不是我們立法院有這個評鑑的壓力我真的很懶得問你了因為你問你什麼都沒有用"},{"start":393.633,"end":405.667,"text":"你一下子是經濟部的問題一下子是衛福部的問題然後一下子又是速發部的問題你存在的價值是什麼我現在就給你這個問題你回去好好想一想 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"168798","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168798","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442b2d8763c27bd0c276726ceb1fc879916d3cfaf5c3773194dc0ae87ae6cfd03fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"10:38:29 - 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你知道你現在給他的耗水只佔他如果你課徵他的比照北水的耗水率那個幾乎佔了他百分之一啊"},{"start":243.749,"end":259.262,"text":"的整個成本啊感覺好像幾百億在他整個營收幾兆的那個幾乎是幾百分之幾的的這個的成本啊你不讓不讓台水去客好出口又封死他所以呢現在808億的公共預算降漏"},{"start":260.023,"end":282.4,"text":"那其中634億的固定資產成本是誰在乎?台水在乎喪失自我修復的財務彈性所以呢本席要點出的是台水的財務破動並非源於管理不善而是被政策物價雙向的擠壓而剝奪了他定價權的必然結果好我看主計總組啊您到底呢是這個"},{"start":285.103,"end":289.868,"text":"這個裝睡的人呢覺不醒呢你是沒看到這樣的預算幻象嗎你們給他的808億給他20億的增資4年80億每年20億的增資喔好那我們看喔114年去年這個審計部給他的決算虧損這個49.7億"},{"start":306.545,"end":314.589,"text":"今年行政院預算稅前虧損竟然行政院自己說你預估會虧多少錢今年會虧69.15億喔擴大政府核定的降漏計畫增資每年給他20億這誰都看得懂啊"},{"start":323.433,"end":329.716,"text":"你今年預計他會虧69.15億你今年80億分4年要求他增資只給他20億會虧69.5億你只給他20億那又不給他個出口讓他針對高用水用戶去收也沒有你們也不給他財務預算專案的預算的這個年度預算給他也不給然後呢這個超收的稅收也不全額撥補好那這個增資啊"},{"start":354.147,"end":365.433,"text":"這個還是有貓膩的什麼貓膩在裡面這個針織啊 台水需負擔什麼責救跟攤提啊所以你們給支持他去做漏水工程你們都給的不爽快啊好 那核心是什麼本席要問了"},{"start":369.895,"end":392.025,"text":"四年總計八十億的增資這是你們給他的喔連這個彌補單年度的虧損都遠遠不夠更遑論支撐未來高達八百零八億的降漏計畫這是在推動建設還是看著國營事業慢性破產什麼叫做慢性破產除了八零八億他一定做越多虧對過之外他現在負債多少錢"},{"start":394.631,"end":411.648,"text":"一千億呀這一千億怎麼來都是這樣來的都是推動公共建設而來難道是董事長總經理跟所有的主管把錢吃掉了嗎他們經營不善嗎沒有耶這現在背負的一千億跟銀行借錢來辦這個降漏"},{"start":414.734,"end":433.13,"text":"從全部都借錢欸好我說你們還是沒看到這個假性資產的投資說好了8084投資這個一般商業的基礎回收的回收期是10到15年那其實這個8081就商業的角度它的內部報酬率是多少"},{"start":435.312,"end":453.829,"text":"-2.7耶 標是說絕對料 做多少料多少然後回收好啦 勉強啦 我們一定要給他算回收啦因為他有很大的這個社會外部效益啊給他算到外部會社效益之後 他也等42年回收耶我本來一般就10到15年就回收了 因為你說要他自負盈虧啊結果勉強的把社會公益心算進去 也要42年啦"},{"start":460.254,"end":487.091,"text":"好 這個社會公益性 這個強化社會的水潤性啊我們檢探啊這不就是典型的公共建設的性質嗎當然要由國家專案預算全額支出而非迫使國營失業來負擔啊然後來看審計部這個審計部也非常的有趣啦 審計長這個您就看一下 等一下您再來回應你們說啊 這個先看到第六頁"},{"start":487.611,"end":492.915,"text":"你們很有趣喔你們這個台水把你們的審計部的意見跟我們立法院報告好了這邊是112年的報告以嚴謀或依改善措施持續辦理的你們羅列的五項112年其中的第四項說台水你有問題會配合國家經濟建設及永續發展每年投入巨額資金辦理重大興建計畫為部分計畫工程進度落後及"},{"start":517.235,"end":538.764,"text":"完成後經濟效益未達預期目標允宜研謀善策哇 這個請神仙來 我都不曉得哪一位神仙能夠能夠解決台水的這個負擔完全不給他出入這個也不給他後輩的資源只叫他你做 你就賠吧那你叫他怎麼研擬啊好 那我們就以808億來看剛才那個"},{"start":545.583,"end":569.172,"text":"對 你投入倍增這句808億喔 你是這個施工工成本是標準的喔過去汰換一公里的管線我只要700萬今天因為勞力成本通膨包括你經過的路段已經進入了這個降漏水的工程的深水區所以你現在暴增你一公里的管線成本是1000萬增幅40%工程效益的銳減因為降漏困難度的越來越高現在每公里找回的漏水量"},{"start":575.034,"end":580.701,"text":"大幅減少了50%也就是說省基部你看到了說這種投入倍增效益減半的投資模式但是呢為了公共利益的強行推進讓國營事業獨自承攬暴增的單價跟遞減的"},{"start":594.258,"end":608.109,"text":"效益將直接託還其財務健康那我不知道您的審計的報告有意義嗎言再把這句話我覺得講得真好言謀善策你的善策誰能夠提供啊"},{"start":608.732,"end":620.08,"text":"好 再來我們這個政治口號我說呢 我們要政策目標808 把它開了可以達到什麼目標1823年時我的漏水率要降到10%然後呢 這個微幅的降幅從113年的11.99%要經過8年之後降2.22%的這個漏水率巨大的代價是台水必須8年內燒掉808億再加上它現在1000億的負債"},{"start":637.812,"end":655.399,"text":"這種比例原則 私人投入808億 僅收取了百分之二零二一的降幅這次是違背了比例原則政府還為了達成政治口號 而不惜犧牲國營事業的存續嗎好 但是我要講 本席是支持808億的 你不要以為我不支持因為這808億啊 接下來的二點好 謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":660.168,"end":663.192,"text":"這2.22億換算的結果是每年省5910萬噸每年省5910萬噸的水我要不要做 要做啊它相當於曾文水庫的11%到12%的有效容量"},{"start":676.727,"end":703.589,"text":"它相當於家庭用水如果一個家庭的平均用水用水一噸是1000公升的話這樣子的每年的這個省水率5910噸的這個每年的省水可以讓16萬個家庭不間斷的使用整整一整年好來看台北市淹沒城市這樣每年省下來的5910萬噸的水如果鋪在台北市的話可以淹沒全台北約21.8公分好"},{"start":706.491,"end":726.197,"text":"那要不要做 當然要做成本與效益的措置的舉證誰獲利誰買單本席再整理一下台水公司跟中央政府跟社會大眾財務的負債台水是承擔了808億的巨額負債跟其中的630億的固定資本中央政府是預算赤字成功隱藏"},{"start":727.777,"end":744.718,"text":"本來這80814你要你的負債的你把它叫台水收了你成功你國家預算赤字成功的隱藏零負擔你社會的效益台水是沒有現金流回報剛才我講很清楚了但是中央政府跟全民享有抗抗的韌性跟減碳紅利"},{"start":746.46,"end":749.822,"text":"投資效益他承受了-2027的虧損型的專案42年無法回本中央政府跟社會是無需承擔任何的投資風險政治紅利是什麼台水你這個虧損啊這個經營不善啊結果政府他明早達到的是120年的漏水率的降至10%"},{"start":766.933,"end":776.442,"text":"這一頁台水的不可能三角我再次的凸顯了營收成本的天花板跟資本支出的失控跟政治強制的綁架最後來我要求社會任性不應該由國營事業獨自舉債對主計總書跟審計部的最後我本席的結論台水的縮節講得很清楚了"},{"start":790.334,"end":798.358,"text":"這一筆八年八百億要符合你中央政府的降水率降到百分之十去在國際可以邊平井台水說啦我這個投資我把回收的我邊際消費是會遞減的我虧損會持續擴大的好 台灣是一個降水豐沛卻是會缺水的國家"},{"start":814.087,"end":825.534,"text":"為什麼台電的強化電網韌性你政府可以編預算十年五千六百四十五億去支持他的電網你憑什麼用水韌性的成本百分百讓台水獨自的來收買單這個主計程車只要你一句話"},{"start":834.58,"end":858.462,"text":"計劃該做 全民受益政府買單 如果降落是國家級的氣候防禦工程的話那就應該要讓中央專案預算如何支持提止台湾水災 主席你認不認同 用中央專案預算支持台水808的預算用中央專案預算去解決它一千億的"},{"start":861.959,"end":888.199,"text":"好 後續請用書面回覆林委員因為已經超過五分鐘要不要演繹那個 您用書面回覆我們用書面回覆我們也會請經濟部來做整個一個演繹好 謝謝 謝謝主席長來 我們結束林代化委員的質詢你的答案就是這樣他哪能夠自負盈虧啊好 謝謝林委員來 請回我們等一下因為今天質詢時間非常的長"}]}},{"id":"168797","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168797","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442dcd06f75f2de25605ab56d7e35fc4ecfd3cfaf5c3773194d6175e7c94f56e9555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"10:36:25 - 10:47:21","影片長度":"00:10:56","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-3院會付委）\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-7院會付委）\n（四）委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「民法第一千零三十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-6院會付委）\n（八）委員林月琴等22人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-9院會付委）\n（十二）委員黃捷等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員范雲等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第（十八）、（十九）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（二）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（四）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（五）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（六）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（七）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n【第（七）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（八）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-23","start_time":"2026-04-23T10:36:25+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-23T10:47:21+08:00","duration":656,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-5-36-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.637218750000002,"end":12.164093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.61971875,"end":13.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.79221875,"end":16.602218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.04096875,"end":32.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.68409375,"end":37.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.611593750000004,"end":74.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.90534375,"end":98.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.27284375,"end":99.42471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.47534375000001,"end":106.78221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.47409375000001,"end":136.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.07284375,"end":138.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.91221875000002,"end":141.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.27034375,"end":162.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.36409375000002,"end":184.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.45346875,"end":197.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.03409375,"end":196.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.89034375,"end":198.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.58221875,"end":198.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.59909375,"end":202.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.61596875,"end":228.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.98284375,"end":233.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.09159375000002,"end":240.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.24721875,"end":239.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.86659375000002,"end":256.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.76471875000001,"end":246.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.49409375000002,"end":250.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.13846875,"end":263.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.15846875,"end":264.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.79971875,"end":267.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.26784375,"end":279.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.07346875,"end":268.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.05471875,"end":285.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.60659375,"end":286.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.63159375000004,"end":293.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.69846875,"end":292.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.67721875,"end":292.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.11596875000004,"end":304.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.50409375000004,"end":294.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.71346875,"end":334.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.13471875000005,"end":337.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.93596875000003,"end":406.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.95471875000004,"end":456.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.72409375,"end":451.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.94346875,"end":451.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.72346875000005,"end":464.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.96346875,"end":459.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.25784375,"end":469.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.18534375,"end":470.87721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.38346875,"end":471.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.42971875,"end":480.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.65221875000003,"end":480.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.88409375000003,"end":501.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.94159375000004,"end":491.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.64596875,"end":493.5740937500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因為過去只能夠因為生活陷於困難所以10年內只有21件那你因為21件這件事情那非常多的相關的律師那他們其實會很擔心你留在那裡反而造成困擾"},{"start":390.603,"end":405.806,"text":"那這邊根據婦女薪資基金會的研究訪談律師說這個代號都是律師兩位律師都認為爭取贍養費會讓法院質疑當事人的撫養能力因為當事人若符合請求撫養費的生活陷於困難"},{"start":406.994,"end":430.945,"text":"那就不利於他爭取監護權因此在訴訟策略上一旦當事人提出申請監護權的意願的時候律師就會建議他放棄請求善養費所以基本上你留了生活陷於困難那也對律師來講的話其實是非常不利的所以我們還是建議法務部回去好好的思考一下是不是"},{"start":431.385,"end":455.604,"text":"拿掉因離婚而生活陷於困難因為自證生活陷於困難也可能使得他有了贍養費就失去了監護權是當事人會陷於贍養費跟監護權二選一的這個兩難那這個是專業律師而且常常打離婚相關的律師們的建議那您如果不同意說拿出你們的數字"},{"start":456.585,"end":470.399,"text":"當然那個委員剛才有提到說21件當然是案件不多但是因為就是案件不多所以我們就有去討論就是說有離分時就會能力減損就會減少這都是一個選項這是或不是說"},{"start":472.455,"end":490.238,"text":"一定要再加上生活困難這是一個或或生活困難也用這個理由來申請那另外或那個如果說有我覺得這個東西就是要實證資料你們是法務部應該有能力做這個研究如果法官認為的生活限於困難已經是中低收入戶的話"},{"start":490.959,"end":512.725,"text":"那當事人本來就可以尋蹤低收入戶的據說因為10年來只有21件你們因為是生活陷於困難那你是不是拿出相關的數字再來認證它留在這因為法務部不是在處理我們是屬於民法的主管至於那個實務上的數據這次主管修法是你們嗎"},{"start":517.249,"end":524.53,"text":"我們是法規主管機關 但是因為家事法院是司法院修法不應該拿出數據嗎 判決的數據才知道這個法條留在那裡 法院會怎麼判嘛 法官怎麼判嘛那我還是請你們研議 因為你們的報告說還沒做好所以我今天就繼續來問這題 好不好那聽起來就是還是沒有統計數字 那我想"},{"start":542.814,"end":554.811,"text":"就是婦女團體他自己做的研究然後這麼多的離婚相關的律師看到這個困境那是不是如果你堅持要放在那你要拿出數據說服我們大家好嗎"},{"start":557.3,"end":576.349,"text":"那還是請你拿出數據研議到底要不要移除生活限於困難好嗎因為我的時間不多了那您要答我先檢要回覆委員的槌尋第一個是上次委員槌尋只是事項我們已經回覆了可能還在辦公室可能要再確認那第二件事情是說"},{"start":577.989,"end":599.68,"text":"我們雖然沒有做因為我們手上沒有司法統計資料但是21件這個數據我們在報端也有看到不過我們當時有初步上網去看一下其實當初21件會這麼少人員其實很多是卡在所謂的判決這個要件以及所謂的無過失的要件倒不是生活陷於困難這個要件完全就排除掉了所以我們就把兩大壁壘拿掉了因為離婚律師都是實戰經驗他們的當事人為什麼不建議他申請那第二點就是說為什麼離婚律師會這樣建議那是著眼於現行法"},{"start":606.323,"end":624.037,"text":"因為未來我們是其實會有所謂的A套餐跟B套餐你可以選擇要吃哪一個套餐A套餐就是說我是生活陷於困難類型B套餐就是我是所謂的勞動機會或是勞動能力減損的類型那生活陷於困難如果是中低收入戶的話是不是本來就有中低收入戶的幫助重點不是在一個生活困難重點是因為我們現在的法律是採無過失的一個主義如果說採破綻主義的話我想生活困難這部分的那個案例會用這個理由"},{"start":635.145,"end":654.338,"text":"就可以 案件就會增多了那律師還有訪談律師的婦女團體的研究他看到的是實質的部分好嗎那我想如果你要保留在那裡就要拿出數據來說服好不好這部分我們再來講好 我們再仔細對話那支持那個昭偉說辦公廳會能夠一次修到好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168796","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168796","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be54421d9b84354c4b00fb47e947452b276263d3cfaf5c3773194d4bf6fd8005bdee605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"10:33:57 - 10:42:26","影片長度":"00:08:29","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) 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我們現在的觀點從公平會的角度來看就是說現在假設只有兩家那為什麼呢你們啊 前公平會的委員啊貴姓夫你是在115年3月15日投資中特別點數"},{"start":176.906,"end":195.525,"text":"他說7年114年12月8日衛福部大力支持下集結全台32家頂尖醫療及研究機構的台灣臨床試驗中心的聯名"},{"start":196.326,"end":215.365,"text":"叫做TACTC正式的成立它的目標是在整合制度的流程將台灣打造為亞太臨床試驗的一個輸流聯名之立與統一IRP就是人體試驗委員會的文件與審查"},{"start":219.068,"end":233.619,"text":"合約的翻本人才庫的建築及受試者的一個招募平台這幾個都非常重要如果你有再申請要進去的這是一個必備的流程那我為什麼會提這個問題"},{"start":235.941,"end":251.236,"text":"32家頂尖醫療機構,過從臺灣臨產事業的中心人們那只有一家,因為32家我很懷疑如果你在生機產業裡面有琢磨,你就發覺這裡面的學問很多"},{"start":254.739,"end":283.001,"text":"你要就是國家成立一個獨立的機構來檢驗這個流程他現在找了32家我會說這跟他獨一無二的生意大家要乖乖的拜託他所以你們要特別注意不是你們監管沒有問題這個叫做壟斷再來你們那個公平委員他說雖然有助於降低聯傳委託試驗的前置成本確實"},{"start":284.864,"end":299.74,"text":"但是從市場經理以公平交易法的角度不然我不會提出來你們以前委員談的我說這篇文章很有意思把它拿起來看他說當前台32家頂尖醫療機構"},{"start":301.582,"end":320.624,"text":"在聯名內他的統一交易條件他交換敏感的世紀資訊他排除成年的參與或禁止存取資料時這是我已經觸及公平交易法的聯合行為或者限制的競爭"},{"start":324.114,"end":337.424,"text":"因為如果你有做過藥品或是怎樣要去臨床試驗台灣現在很多都在推展這樣那只有這一間能做而且32家經濟的醫療機構我沒有跟這32家好好的聯絡一下"},{"start":343.649,"end":358.405,"text":"我真的會我們真的小的生技公司非常困難你告訴我到底是你們管的嗎你們有資格人管嗎已經提出來了因為這是106年的案子那個我強求了解應該是這是國家"},{"start":359.305,"end":379.859,"text":"衛福部他本身有參與這樣的一個計畫當中那這個可能是基於機關的產業政策來做的那公平會的角度我們當然不是說這樣的東西全部都沒有問題而只是說通常我們在機關形成這個產業政策過程當中我們會做某一種程度的我們所謂的競爭倡議就是說他們這樣的一個計畫本身有沒有哪一點可能會有競爭上的疑慮"},{"start":380.82,"end":401.543,"text":"我是不曉得公平會過去是不是有做這一塊但是這對於像類似國家出面來主導的這樣的一個大型的產業政治的發展我們是可以扮演一定的市級的角色我是這樣啊有做過區議員有做過聲援都了解這裡面的奧妙在哪裡講是這麼講能不能公平性"},{"start":405.503,"end":422.533,"text":"如果國家成立獨立機構,大家還相信他32家,這裡面那種交錯複雜的關係,實在會讓你眼花撩爛,不曉得從哪裡走走,說一個要要到成形很苦。那我這邊特別是提醒,"},{"start":423.573,"end":438.343,"text":"我們的公平交易委員會特別注意一個問題不要變成大企業那幾個企業在掌控這個市場現在的生技產業也很多中小企業他有獨特的技術特別的研發"},{"start":439.664,"end":467.782,"text":"不是非聯盟你以後進去就非常的困難所以這個政策我倒是很懷疑存在某種的目的跟用意到底在哪裡要嘛你國家就成立像美國這樣FDA的一個機構全部來審怎麼跟32家在中間在一起變成獨一無二連場實驗都要在裡面你現在跟我說國家政策很多都是國家政策成立"},{"start":468.803,"end":487.142,"text":"這些是藥品到最後是變成商品我是希望你提早我們會注意當然我們注意的點是在這個政策這個聯盟形成以後它後續的一些行為有沒有違反你好好去跟衛福部溝通這樣會引起大家其他的聯想好不好"},{"start":488.162,"end":501.126,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我們會持續我們會注意這個問題AI舒服師的廣告現在很厲害你們要趕得上追得上我現在那個影片做得太好是我們會注意我們持續我們會關注這個問題好不好加強一下有有我們持續要注意這個問題謝謝 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謝謝主席 請石部長"},{"start":15.576,"end":30.186,"text":"六人好部長早我想2024年凱凱案都震驚社會政府也隨即推動所謂社安網2.0試圖再補破網我們也看到預算從115年的106億到119年的819億.6億將近820億我們當然也可以看出部長對於改善社工處境以及提升整體的社會安全網友"},{"start":45.936,"end":64.627,"text":"這個很大的決心但是我拜讀了一下你們的強化社會安全網的計畫2.0也就是115年到119年核定本的內容之後有幾個現實的問題想要請教第一個如今的社工人力流失呢我想已經不是新聞那全國的禁用率"},{"start":65.74,"end":83.034,"text":"是從2021年的89.7%掉到82.8%那當然其中一個原因是預估需求越來越大但是新增的社工的速度趕不上需求的增加那當然也有造成幾個亂象請教一下部長因為我看了一下有媒體報導這個"},{"start":85.956,"end":96.388,"text":"如果縣市政府地方政府把自聘人力轉去社安網那到職的一天之後就離職也會算進用率的狀況請問一下衛福部有沒有這樣的狀況"},{"start":99.892,"end":126.835,"text":"這個可能要掌握一下所以沒有掌握跟委員報告就是我們對於社安網各縣市的社工跟專業人員的禁用率我們年度就是以12月的最後的那個禁用的一個人數來做計算12月最後的那天的人數嘛對不對好所以這就報導下一題就是說所以這個報導就指出如果社安網的員工想要離職這些主管會拜託他撐到12月以後"},{"start":128.035,"end":155.348,"text":"好 所以目前有沒有掌握要成過12月以後就離職潮的現象發生跟委員報告 我們的確也在這個聯繫匯報每半年會針對社工人員的流動率進行一些統計那我們最新的統計是在14年12月底的一個情況對嘛 對那你這個14年12月底那你現在15年之後你有沒有去追蹤 還沒"},{"start":157.527,"end":166.565,"text":"對 就是目前還在觀測 都沒有 目前這三個月第一劑都沒有關注還是有統計那你統計你有沒有發現他12月以後有離職潮"},{"start":168.439,"end":193.113,"text":"當然人數是進進出出有一些浮動你有沒有發現有離職潮這個狀況因為我剛剛講了兩個亂象嘛第一個亂象就是他可能一天到職因為他知道你哪一天要統計他就請那天自己移過去把這個人數衝高然後過了之後說拜託你超過12月以後你要離職再離職有沒有這個狀況有很多的因素比方說年終養智沒關係你告訴我們有沒有這個狀況就好"},{"start":194.274,"end":211.426,"text":"我們查一下這個每個月的人數的變動的資料我們再提供給委員不過其實我們各類各類人員都有類似的情形就是在這個年終獎金發放之後那個本來要好沒有我要跟你講其中有個根本的原因其實上面"},{"start":211.926,"end":233.458,"text":"都有這種既有的亂象會問這個問題是因為啊你們有把這個禁用率納入考核所以你就有可能導致地方政府為了達成這個聘用率一再的降低聘用率的標準反正你先聘進來再說你的教育環節可能也不足那大家在湊數字所以如果沒有達成考核標準會發生什麼後果KPI齁對你的KPI會發生什麼後果禁用率未達85%會要扣除考核"},{"start":242.976,"end":258.248,"text":"應該是會扣分嘛對不對取消了取消了115年今年取消了取消今年取消新的一年今年開始取消喔對對對那我只是想問你那如果所以這個KPI已經沒有了沒有了沒有了確定沒有了喔對對對你不會因為這個KPI沒有達成然後未來"},{"start":259.388,"end":267.373,"text":"這個明年度去說那我要我不要讓你給你補助這麼多或者是讓你在這個預算上面不要有這麼多的補助會嗎你們會這樣嗎以前禁用率未達85%會會扣分嘛對不對那現在"},{"start":274.268,"end":300.654,"text":"對 會扣補助款嘛之前會扣補助款 對不對所以你們現在確定今年之後都不會有了今年沒有了 今年取消這一項好 因為我要跟你講的事情是其實這個相關KPI你們也應該回去檢討除了這個之外有沒有其他會導致這樣子惡性循環的因為他就是如果他達不到然後你又砍他補助然後結果他導致他越來越少資源投入那是不是導致一個負向的惡性循環是"},{"start":301.434,"end":325.527,"text":"所以另外部長你們在2.0的計畫裡面第三頁啊其實就有提到將會擴大服務族群那規劃將服務對象擴大到新社會家庭那服務率要從1.14%提升到50%好那你服務量會增加43倍啊那你的獨居老人每一年要成長10%那還有的這個數位性別暴力啦淨貧邊緣戶的這個財務社會工作啦那"},{"start":328.428,"end":343.638,"text":"我想要請問這樣社工是不是需要更進一步的教育訓練那這樣子的業務量是不是會增加你們評估會增加多少的工作量我們社長網2.0是預估要增加9000名啦就是說到119年我是說你們擴大了這麼多的對象我想請問一下"},{"start":349.461,"end":373.429,"text":"擴大這麼多業務我們當然希望可以照顧越多越好可是在你既有的這些社工的量能之下他的工作量會增加多少這個跟委員說明我們這裡有很多種不同的對象但是像新生兒服務這個大概不是社工為主那麼獨居老人可能有部分可是也不是全部多我跟你說因為你們我們還是會希望"},{"start":373.849,"end":388.221,"text":"有不同的這個多元能力的部長我跟你說李建德次長他在2025年12月22號的時候也在這個委員會其他委員會有親口宣告說要擴大六類所以包含了新手父母獨居長者近平性影像原住民多元性別所以"},{"start":389.142,"end":404.95,"text":"我要說的事情是你現在擴大了這麼多好你現在增加9000名可是你實際也沒這麼多人那我試跑了一下模型去預估和推估他說第一線人員的體感工作量可能會增加至少20%當然這個估算不一定完全準確但是具體來說就是基層人力目前已經確定還缺乏"},{"start":409.972,"end":438.795,"text":"而且還沒有補足的情況之下現在可能還有法律風險雖然我們都希望擴大這個服務範圍可是這樣會不會給第一線人員或是督導或是地方政府更大的壓力我們會試這個人力的到位情形來調整我們的目標啦當然因為這個是提報計畫的時候當然我們會用一個比較高的挑戰的具有挑戰性的目標不過我們會按照實際的情況也避免造成這個第一線人員的"},{"start":439.676,"end":455.391,"text":"所以你們有沒有什麼打算的做法不是只有講一個目標出來那你要怎麼做到不要讓他工作量增加又可以增加趕快更多人我們大概每天還是會滾動去調整這個目標的設定不是 目標設定是一回事你既然設了這個目標你就要有一個可以達成的方法嘛"},{"start":456.112,"end":485.412,"text":"所以你要怎麼達成這個目標當然不然你這個目標不就是虛設嗎第一個當然我們有些是可以靠這個數位技術協助的就是AI導入啦協助他分案啊等等這樣的那人力的這個留任然後徵聘訓練這個也是一個然後再所以簡單來講就是你要增加薪水可能會找到真心的方式然後要增加AI導入的方式對不對對好那但是呢"},{"start":486.392,"end":504.794,"text":"我想喔這個你又在這個110頁裡面嚴格規定了資新的標準喔所以我想要講的事情是你的這個計畫書啊你工作量增加了20%雖然你說你可能會增加薪資AI導入可是事實上你有一個資新的標準在那裡那資新成長有限你真的覺得留得住人才嗎 部長"},{"start":507.523,"end":529.45,"text":"我們會盡量來爭取讓他的心智要合理你應該要去檢討一下你如果有那個標準在那然後你沒有把你把標準定在那裡然後你要增加這麼多的工作量我不覺得你留得下人才那你是不是會考慮譬如說增加新點或增加新點的折合率然後另外你剛所謂的AI導入或者是數位導入轉型你多久可以上線"},{"start":530.81,"end":553.813,"text":"這個已經開始啟動在做了那你們現在做的成效如何呢在招標還沒做因為這是115年開始的那我就問什麼時候上線嘛你在招標那等你招標完建制完到上線系統而且我們都知道數位導入並不是一件容易的事情還需要整個體系的習慣運作工作流程要調整那我想要請問這樣子要多久"},{"start":554.532,"end":576.262,"text":"這個都已經在進行中嘛不是啦 部長你是在進行中嘛你是在招標而已啦你剛剛說你開始招標嘛招標是那個技術的協助但是相關的文件都已經在討論了相關的規格啊那所以我剛剛問的問題MG提案是什麼時候上線然後它可以融入到這個第一階段大概是年底會完成那個系統年底喔對"},{"start":577.122,"end":604.877,"text":"我覺得因為從今年開始就已經人力不足了然後弄到年底然後你的薪資還沒有提升我擔心你這樣子的量能跟你這樣的量能跟這個給他的待遇你真的留得住人嗎我們努力加速來推動啦因為這個還是要有時間啦這個也不可能急救張是 那我另外就想要請問一下在關懷訪視員的部分啊目前這個自殺關懷訪視員平均每個人要負責74案啊"},{"start":606.852,"end":632.482,"text":"是原本規劃的兩倍那你們要怎麼降低因為那個還是有按照這個風險分級的他也不是說每個的訪視頻率或關懷頻率都是相同你先去思案你們第二期定本來是定這個1比40沒有達到那2.0改1比30其實更嚴重了還沒開始就破功了你這樣子會不會差太多"},{"start":633.442,"end":656.102,"text":"然後我其實去查了一下國際比較當然每個國家可能實務上到底深入多少不一定可是我看到的是包含這個英國可能平均是15.4案日本可能是40案然後我們的74等於是美國的6倍英國的5倍日本目標的2倍所以我想要講的問題就是說那你要怎麼降低啊"},{"start":658.201,"end":672.519,"text":"這個我們當然一方面增加人力啦一方面呢那個改變那個工作的這個方式啦是啊所以我剛剛前面一直在跟你討論這個所謂的人力流用啊或是待遇增加啊這些相關的問題還有數位方式所以"},{"start":673.34,"end":689.887,"text":"可是部長你有沒有覺得我這樣問問到來還是有點你的回答還是有點空泛其實我知道其實台灣各行各業都很過勞啦這過去其實這個案子更多我們是逐步在下降那個我記得以前還超過"},{"start":690.907,"end":710.697,"text":"一兩百案一個人在負責現在我們是逐步在給他往下調我希望部長這個因為你現在沒有辦法完整的回答我希望你們可以回去務實的檢討然後給本席辦公室具體的做法好不好因為不能夠總是用這個帶過的方式當然你說有沒有這樣可能有這樣可是我們離目標還這麼遠然後你定的目標是這樣到底怎麼達到"},{"start":711.818,"end":737.793,"text":"然後另外也有媒體報導這個所謂的再通報率這個KPI是非常不合理所以原因在於你們根本沒有釐清再通報的根本原因所以僅就單就這個再通報率去做指標那就會變成可能會讓各單位變成害怕單責任也造成各協力單位的第一線人員可能想辦法是說那我要往外推這個責任然後最後可能還會推回到社工身上"},{"start":738.578,"end":762.63,"text":"好所以目前你們的這個社安網2.0中的績效KPI也有明確的要求脆弱家庭服務三個月後案件被通報的保護案件比率的目標值要從3.5%壓到119年要低於3%好那部長你有沒有想過在被通報的時候真的有可能是有結構因素或者是一些不可歸咎於社工的因素"},{"start":763.33,"end":780.018,"text":"比如說經濟問題再次施暴我想要表達的是社工不是神有時候不是他們不想解決而是他可能沒有能力解決或是在那個狀況之下就連很多這個宗教的聖人要開導一個人也不是說馬上開導輔導他就可以過了對不對"},{"start":783.439,"end":803.744,"text":"你有沒有更溫和的機制用專案協助代替考核而不是用這種中央補助的資源啊來這個所謂用KPI來挾持地方政府最後大家可能為了獲得充足的經費然後已經很累了還要處理考核指標然後把分數衝高最後就變成在玩數字遊戲為了考核而考核這個"},{"start":805.996,"end":825.387,"text":"在通報這個統計我們都還是應該要掌握啦才知道服務的成效但是我們已經不把它當作是一個KPI啦已經把它拿掉就是說不用這個來做考核現在你確定已經都拿掉了嗎已經拿掉了你確定拿掉為什麼我在你們的這個2.0裡面的績效KPI裡面所以你文件裡面還寫著"},{"start":832.219,"end":860.342,"text":"退家的部分齁那我們再回對啊你還有啊部長你不能亂回答部長你不能亂回答我你要請他們如果你不曉得內容你要跟他們講啊保護個案如果是保護個案這個部分是拿掉那其他的呢這個是我剛剛說的是脆弱家庭服務三個月後案件被通報保護案件比例的這個目標值這個有拿掉嗎沒有那我們回頭再檢討了"},{"start":862.875,"end":886.749,"text":"我覺得你們KPI的時候就是說我們的這個在通報裡我剛剛有提到我們需要有這個數字的掌握才知道服務的成效但是要不要拿來作為KPI這個是另外討論這些客觀數據是讓你們拿來精進你們的這個成果的部分但是你如果把它錯誤拿來作為績效的KPI你會導致所謂的數字遊戲你結構不對產出的成果也是錯的"},{"start":887.91,"end":912.709,"text":"不好意思主席最後一題因為他這裡面可能的這個這個原因很多啦就像您提到的原因很多不是啦但是你要回去檢討你們的KPI其實我上一年2025年的時候我就有講過我在質詢的時候也有講過你2024年我說社安網在崩潰中2025年我就說你們的KPI有錯誤可能有錯誤你會導致目標整個走這個方向完全不對那你現在的績效"},{"start":913.309,"end":925.955,"text":"還是這樣設定的話你就會導致大家為了考核考核為了樹枝漂亮去美化你並沒有真正達到所謂的社安網的目標啊所以你這個一定要回去檢討然後這個我們一個月內提出檢討好談到你們的這個社安網計畫2.0的106頁你們這個兒少通報案件經調查派案後提供服務的比率"},{"start":935.859,"end":951.938,"text":"你們到119年要達到95%那一樣代表你們強制要求95%的案件都必須進入後端的服務系統但是伴隨現在的數據可以看到在凱凱案後已經有明顯的防衛性通報的思維"},{"start":953.4,"end":968.702,"text":"那因為現在的法制也明確要求只要責任之息就必須通報所以當然有大量的案件也進入了調查系統那調查系統的成績也不用太難看就一定要讓一部分的案件再進入到服務系統"},{"start":969.761,"end":986.739,"text":"所以你的現況就是已經湧進了太多的通報量也造成國家系統的癱瘓那可能就會變成是大量的社工人力必須用在調查事件沒有辦法更細緻化在這個後端的服務也導致這個真正需要服務的或者國家資源的配置失衡"},{"start":988.204,"end":999.998,"text":"所以從數據來看我們可以看到這樣的矛盾近年的兒校通報案件數跟通報人數持續的增加但實際進入到這個保護服務的人數並沒有同步上升"},{"start":1000.902,"end":1018.684,"text":"而且福利的服務量更是呈現下降的趨勢以2025年為例在69109名的通報個案中最終接受到保護服務者僅9898人是6年來的新低同時也反映出這個福報通報的現象越來越嚴重"},{"start":1020.046,"end":1026.113,"text":"那你們現在呢又要求調查服務比例要到95%那最後就會變成什麼就會變成是廣通報廣調查廣服務然後大家如果數據不好看就會被檢討最後還塞捲最後還會有這個有篩選過也會讓後端的這個需要服務的KPI一再的增加所以現況就是這樣子的"},{"start":1041.67,"end":1064.884,"text":"深入的報導 我有看到社福中心擔心案量太大那他可能會為了衝高開案率社工會在長官的收益下 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現在進行法案審查並宣讀討論事項條文修正動議請一併宣讀"},{"start":2305.509,"end":2316.018,"text":"公職人員選舉報免法第26條委員林依靜等22人提案第三款前段修正為成分第97條第一項第二項第三項第98條第99條第一項第二項第100條第一項第二項第三項第101條第一項第二項第6項第7項第102條第一項第二項第103條其餘同線型條文委員陳玉珍等17人提案第9款後段刪除與緩刑期間並增訂但書"},{"start":2331.952,"end":2346.56,"text":"但受緩刑宣告者不在此限其與同現行條文台灣民眾黨黨團提案第九款後段刪除與緩刑期間並增訂但書但受緩刑宣告或異形處分者不在此限其與同現行條文委員林淑芬等二十三人提案第九款後段刪除"},{"start":2347.26,"end":2374.609,"text":"與緩刑期間或行刑權因離於時效消滅並增訂但書但受緩刑宣告者不在此縣其餘同縣刑條文委員翁曉琳等16人提案第5款新增或詐欺犯罪違害防治條例第9款同委員林淑芬等23人提案其餘同縣刑條文修正動議1撤回修正動議2民眾黨黨團提案第9款但書修正為但受緩刑或異形處分宣告者不在此縣"},{"start":2376.147,"end":2400.002,"text":"其餘同源提案提案人徐中信等人第三款委員林淑芬等23人提案第六款新增或詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第九款第九款後段修正為尚未執行執行未必或行刑權應離於時效而消滅其餘同源提案提案人徐中信等人"},{"start":2404.132,"end":2413.241,"text":"總統、副總統選舉罷免法第26條委員林益錦等20人提案第三款前段修正委陳範第84條第一項第二項第三項第85條第86條第一項第二項第87條第一項第二項第88條第89條第一項第二項第6項第7項其餘同線型條文"},{"start":2422.29,"end":2444.063,"text":"委員翁曉琳等16人提案第五款新增或詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第九款後段刪除與緩刑期間或行刑券因離於時效消滅新增但書但受緩刑宣告則不在此限其與同現行條文宣讀完畢現在進行公職人員選舉罷免法第26條條文修正草案及總統副總統選舉罷免法第26條條文修正草案主條會協商"},{"start":2465.776,"end":2467.802,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":2508.396,"end":2518.772,"text":"我們現在針對公職人員選舉辦理法第26條條文修正草案進行討論有沒有委員要先提出說明意見的"},{"start":2530.008,"end":2553.954,"text":"來 主席 部長 主委 還有各位同仁謝謝各位給我這個機會那今天本黨對26條的修正案提出在第9款附了一個但書本黨為什麼會附這個但書因為我們公職選舉罷免法 各位都是專家它基本上限制參選是一個褚獨公權"},{"start":2555.154,"end":2574.187,"text":"限制參選是一個褚頭公權而我們26條已經有第15款已經有褚頭公權不得參選還沒復選就不得參選那表示說呢 這個我們對於被褚頭公權者已經不讓他參選那現在我們對這個輕罪"},{"start":2579.62,"end":2606.045,"text":"輕罪部分我們在反刑上反刑上通常反刑時間會比較長他跟褚德公權的期間也不見得一致所以反刑其實他的目的是要來看犯罪人他罪確定以後我們是一個罪行法定主義的國家罪已經確定但是法官判他反刑就是表示要讓他"},{"start":2607.452,"end":2629.182,"text":"犯罪以後的態度是否已經變更不必動用國家的刑法權所以給他反刑處分這個反刑處分的期間可能會長於他所被判的刑來觀察他是否已經犯罪後的態度而我們一個犯罪者"},{"start":2630.282,"end":2655.294,"text":"在哪一個行為最容易看出他的犯罪態度是否已經改過千善就是讓他回復原來那種類型的工作也就是他如果是公職有貪賭的話那就讓他回去參選那個公職最能夠觀察出他能夠有沒有改過千善所以我們在反省期間"},{"start":2657.745,"end":2678.356,"text":"不允許他參選這個其實是剝奪人民的參政權剝奪人民的參政權所以我們不應該在反省期間仍然不允許他參選也就是說你應該讓他參選讓他回復他以前類似的工作更能觀察出他是否"},{"start":2678.866,"end":2689.357,"text":"事後已經態度改過千善這樣反而是比較好的所以我們現行的條文沒有這個但書所以台灣民眾黨加入一個"},{"start":2690.782,"end":2710.716,"text":"反刑宣告不在此限 受反刑宣告不在此限那另外呢 異刑處分這個異刑處分有些同仁把他理解為他是異科華軍那其實不然啦因為異刑處分 那個異就是改變那刑可能用勞動服務"},{"start":2711.897,"end":2735.919,"text":"等其他的行為來處罰他那叫異刑處分那會用異刑處分表示刑不必要我們要用其他的行為來看他的犯罪或態度或是他對社會已經是否已經有改變他的行為舉止所以本黨認為受反刑宣告或是受異刑處分者一樣"},{"start":2737.113,"end":2762.106,"text":"不再此現而我們反行是一個宣告那疫情處分後面不必再加一個宣告因為處分就已經有宣告的性質那個疫情處分它不是行政處分它是司法所為的處分所以它已經是一個國家所做的一個公權力行為所以反行宣告"},{"start":2763.942,"end":2782.115,"text":"異形處分兩個是一樣的所以本黨才會提出這樣一個但書的修正案反形處分還有異形沒有比反形現在就是說"},{"start":2788.343,"end":2808.014,"text":"這個異刑處分跟反刑之間沒有輕重的問題它一個是本刑沒有改但是執行期間拖長來看他的犯罪或態度而我們異刑處分是刑已經拿掉了我們用其他的處罰"},{"start":2809.983,"end":2839.172,"text":"勞動服務來加以讓他改過千善彌補以前的罪責所以本黨才會把反刑宣告跟疫情處分一起納為這個但書那這樣修正以後如果有不適合參選公職人員的那就是處得公權也就是法官要判他處得公權幾年嘛那你沒有給他判處得公權"},{"start":2840.773,"end":2867.453,"text":"的這樣一個處罰結果卻在反行期間跟商會執行行執行未完畢把它放在一起那這樣其實是不對的因為反行期間時長它的期間會比較久一點那這樣會剝奪人民的參政權所以本黨才會提出這樣一個修正意見以上給各位做一個參考 謝謝好 我們請黃介委員發言"},{"start":2869.847,"end":2894.49,"text":"好 下一位蘇強惠委員好 那今天這個26條其實就是在講說這個環形宣告的問題那我是覺得說我們的底線當然大家台灣社會都覺得說反貪排黑反毒洗錢這個守護國安這些都是我們共同的底線所以大家有共同的這個高度的這個道德價值道德期待是一定的"},{"start":2894.87,"end":2918.725,"text":"但是因為之前修的這個法確實看起來有比例原則的問題有點輕重失衡所以今天針對這個比例原則的調整我是認為大家可以討論是不是應該更符合原本它的法律上該有的比例原則這樣子也是不會說到時候再如果有人去釋憲或者是違背了憲法原本的精神好 謝謝"},{"start":2922.923,"end":2943.32,"text":"好 謝謝黃婕委員 下一位我們請蘇喬威委員發言然後下一位這是我們王煌威委員好 謝謝 那我就承續著 接續著黃婕委員這邊的說法我們繼續討論一下就是那既然我們今天要討論的是這個候選人的資格那剛剛大家有說這個反獨反黑那甚至是國安問題大家都覺得這是非常嚴重的狀況"},{"start":2944.161,"end":2973.505,"text":"那所以應該作為消極資格也就是不能成為候選人但我想以現在的社會氛圍來講大家對於詐欺犯罪其實是也是深惡痛絕這樣的狀況所以我想我們這個大家民進黨團這邊大家一致決議認為應該是把這個在第六項裡面或詐欺犯罪危害防治條例把它補入所以等於是我們再加上這樣的一個要件也成為候選人的消極資格以上"},{"start":2975.235,"end":2995.593,"text":"這一點翁曉琳委員也有提她的版本那我想我們等一下也會照第六款去討論那我們先把第九款確認下來因為第九款算是大家可能會討論比較多的然後如果怎麼再回推到第六以及我們林益菁委員的提案好那我們請王紅薇委員發言那下一位請吳啟明委員謝謝"},{"start":2997.421,"end":3011.947,"text":"好謝謝主席還有我們各位委員以及今天參與的我們各位行政官員那我們今天所討論的就是呢我們不應該去過分限縮就是人民的一個參政權被選舉權那我想"},{"start":3015.529,"end":3030.861,"text":"在我們第26條第9款這一個部分也就是受緩刑宣告的不在此限我想現在大家看起來各黨派都比較有共識比較有共識那我覺得這是一個往比較合理的方向那麼不要去因為我們當時的修法"},{"start":3038.407,"end":3043.108,"text":"其實當時修法把這個相關的比如說有犯貪污罪啦國安法啦或者組織犯罪、毒品防治、洗錢什麼等等之類那這個部分當然無庸置疑就是不得參選但是呢像在這些這個比較嚴重的罪行之外然後被判緩刑也不得參選的部分我想"},{"start":3064.634,"end":3081.391,"text":"今天大家都有共識是應該把它做一個修正那另外在這邊表達就是因為剛才我們徐中信委員也歡迎他恭喜他加入我們立法院的行列那剛才徐中信委員也提出民眾黨團的一個修正動議"},{"start":3085.735,"end":3104.102,"text":"那這個修正動議就是把它除了受緩刑宣告還有異形處分宣告的也不在此限那因為不管是緩刑或異形這個處分其實都是比較輕微的罪我想這兩者其實是類似的"},{"start":3104.822,"end":3106.524,"text":"所以我們在這邊我們同意民眾黨團所提出來的修正動議來做以上報告我想在第26條第9塊這個部分我們先做以上的表達"},{"start":3124.315,"end":3144.162,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員那我們請吳啟明委員發言好 下一位請王美惠委員好 各位針對26條的修正條文本席這邊是有一個建議我認為要是說在毒品還是槍炮還是有國安的問題當然這種的不行"},{"start":3144.702,"end":3162.147,"text":"那我認為是微型的話也不要去抹殺那個參選人的資格這是本席比較支持啦 比較支持今天我們的修改認為微型的我們還是要給他們有一個機會來參選不要剝奪他們的潛力這是本席的提出 謝謝"},{"start":3172.13,"end":3184.663,"text":"好,謝謝,我們請王美惠委員發言,下一位林淑芬主席,在這裡我的意見,我是覺得說每一個選舉都有每一個的權利,但是他犯罪之後你說他每一項都可以選,每一項都可以選,這樣他做犯事要怎麼讓他有一個糾紛"},{"start":3194.372,"end":3213.886,"text":"但是在這個規定的當中,我們就是覺得說跟犯那麼大罪的、跟犯小罪的人都一樣的處罰,這樣也不對尤其在國安當中,在這幾天17日的規定當中,我相信我們的北市"},{"start":3215.168,"end":3222.178,"text":"對金融行為上的討厭和覺得越來越嚴重我們如果沒有一個嚴重的出發和選舉的牽制說實在,我們受這個罰說實在,不像大家這麼多人"},{"start":3231.724,"end":3241.647,"text":"在這裏討論 我覺得要落實的時候 我們要認為為主的讓他覺得不能參選的時候對中華民國的台灣來說的事實 這樣就失去他的公平的正義以上"},{"start":3255.154,"end":3278.326,"text":"好 謝謝 請林淑芬委員發言好 各位我再講一次就是說憲法第十七條它本來規定人民有選舉罷免創制複決的權利但憲法二十三條也有規定就是說得以法律限制參政權如果符合增進公共利益所必要者"},{"start":3278.626,"end":3294.204,"text":"或者是維持社會秩序或是避免緊急危難或者是防止妨礙他人自由等等其實是得以法律限制他的參政權的但是呢要增進公共利益所必要者但是也要符合比例原則這個是"},{"start":3295.645,"end":3310.479,"text":"不用再多說的那我們今天在這裡在選罷法裡面我們就是要選出哪些人已經不適合受人民所托付所以我們前面第一款到第六款這個消極資格的列舉的這種罪"},{"start":3312.801,"end":3319.528,"text":"這種所犯的這一些不論是對國家的忠誠的義務有關或者是公務員的連結貪毒的問題有關的或者是大家都認為黑金槍毒這種特定的重罪等等都不適合受人民所托付"},{"start":3332.601,"end":3355.855,"text":"那我也同意說大家可能要把這個詐騙的這一種也放進來或許大家也會覺得說你在社會上都會詐騙人民了那這種會詐騙的人到立法院或者到當行政首長或當地方議員可能都不適合受人民所託付這一種叫劣舉出來的大家都覺得說應該是要重演處分"},{"start":3360.237,"end":3388.94,"text":"受緩刑宣告都不可以這個在第七款都有講了就是我們列舉的這一些絕對不適合托付的他是連第七款就已經明定連受緩刑宣告都不可以那我們只修第九款第九款在講什麼他不是特定重罪的我們列舉的那一些他是全國所有的刑事處分的也不是重罪的"},{"start":3390.12,"end":3403.948,"text":"不問任何犯罪僅因為尚未執行或者是執行未必然後在緩刑期間一律全部剝奪他的這個參政權那第九款裡面為什麼要修正絕對不是說"},{"start":3406.349,"end":3423.308,"text":"為什麼三個黨或者是大家都有這個共識的原因是因為第九款的法條條文它失去了輕重的這個比 輕重原則啦它也不適合比例原則但也輕重失衡 為什麼"},{"start":3424.434,"end":3449.796,"text":"同一種罪 我們都知道罪職最重就是要去關上當抓去關的罪職是最重的再來 我覺得還可以啦就你繳了錢 受了處分也警告你了這種是次之嘛那還有一種可能就是說 疫情處分的工雖然不用抓去關 為什麼不用抓去關法官就覺得說 那你還是要處分要抓去勞動服務等等 要疫情處分"},{"start":3452.398,"end":3472.124,"text":"那最輕最直最輕的就是說你這個留下查看你就是這三年這兩年通通都不要再犯任何的錯的話我認為你這個就可以抵過了所以也沒有罰錢也沒有抓去關就是緩刑所以從最直來看就是緩刑那再從行為上來看其實很多狀況有可能會涉及到緩刑不能參選譬如說你發生車禍"},{"start":3480.606,"end":3489.692,"text":"那個發生車禍非你所故意嘛很多都是顧過失可是到最後就判一顆罰金的馬上繳完了馬上就可以參選可是判的比一顆罰金還要輕的還刑給你還刑一年你完全都不能參選"},{"start":3501.837,"end":3504.338,"text":"同一種罪行喔不論是你還有什麼你討厭的可能是毀謗罪判你一顆罰金的可以選那判你緩刑的不能選所以這個就輕重失衡所以在這裡裡面我們才會覺得說不符合比例原則你在這種狀況裡面最輕的可以剝奪他的參政權判重的卻允許他參選"},{"start":3530.874,"end":3547.566,"text":"所以這是不符合邏輯的嘛 這法律條文這樣判太離譜了嘛所以我們認為說 事實上大家可以共識不是為誰量身定制啦大家理性的來討論說 這樣你就全國所有的這種狀況你就一律都剝奪他的參政權"},{"start":3556.012,"end":3566.62,"text":"這樣子是適當的嗎所以我們才想說請大家支持我們先請張宏祿委員發言然後下面請李柏惟教委"},{"start":3570.49,"end":3593.823,"text":"剛聽了所有委員講其實大家基本上方向都差不多如果要去舉犯罪的形態太多了無法一一列舉我是不是建議如果大家方向都一致我們是不是就進入實質的內容我們看要怎麼處理我覺得這樣子比較快"},{"start":3599.465,"end":3618.223,"text":"那我就講一下 因為現在是在這個選罷法26條那剛剛林淑芬委員還有多委員 包含今天我們的新委員徐委員也解釋得非常清楚那就是有沒有符合這個比例原則以及輕重罪失衡的問題這是選罷法26條"},{"start":3620.985,"end":3644.088,"text":"那大家方向一致的話我也贊同張宏祿委員剛剛講的我們可以直接實質的來討論那第二個我也這邊也來對我們這邊也提出一個修正動議針對總統副總統選舉的部分後面的這一個要不要把詐欺犯罪放進來那我們有提出一個修正動議那等一下一起來討論謝謝"},{"start":3646.39,"end":3668.148,"text":"好 謝謝 我們下一個部分會討論到那就張正榮委員好 謝謝大家剛剛各位委員都講得非常清楚針對選罷法第26條到底是誰會不能參選當候選人其實一到六款的就是大家剛剛所稱的算是重罪而且是民眾所所厭惡的不管是國安 貪污 賄選"},{"start":3669.969,"end":3689.116,"text":"組織犯罪、槍炮獨立、毒品等等重大犯罪我們就是就算是緩刑也不能參選所以剛剛很多委員都提到比例原則那如果未來是輕罪不是以上六種的話現在的法令是說還是不能參選是不是有違反比例原則我相信各位委員都講得非常清楚"},{"start":3689.756,"end":3715.416,"text":"那今天也非常開心我們民眾黨許中信委員有提出一個修正動議那剛剛王洪瑞議員已經說本黨就是也支持就是說他們的修正動議所以我需要說就進行實質的討論以上謝謝好謝謝那我想在文字的部分其實在緩刑的部分大家文字上各個版本應該都差不多了文字上大概都寫說斷售緩刑第九款的部分"},{"start":3716.377,"end":3732.236,"text":"第26條的第9款最後面大家無論是原本的版本還是修正動議都是但受緩刑宣告者不在此限我想這樣子的文字大家等一下可能應該都沒有"},{"start":3734.078,"end":3749.07,"text":"但是就是我現在要提就是民眾黨的版本就是他們多了一個或疫情處分那我先跟中選會先確認一下目前疫情處分是可以參選的嗎"},{"start":3752.989,"end":3767.955,"text":"中選會我們看一下修正動議第二版因為疫情的部分它還是有型的存在跟緩刑不一樣"},{"start":3770.461,"end":3796.888,"text":"那現在因為大家在提這個修法的部分對中選會來講就是你只要明確的話資格審查沒有問題的話那對中選會我沒有意見因為這個是主管機關這個內政部跟我們大院修法權這個我們都尊重那我們再請教內政部意見看是尊重委員會還是有內政部有意見發表"},{"start":3798.516,"end":3826.422,"text":"好 我們請劉思芳部長好 家瑋剛剛各位委員所討論的26條大概有兩個部分就是我們在4月8號詢答的時候內政部有表達立場就是說不希望要希望維持本部的書面報告的立場那今天三黨的委員都有提到受緩刑宣告不得參選限制的部分那個這樣子第一個就是說因為那個所謂緩刑的部分大概也提到各種不同的罪行"},{"start":3827.162,"end":3852.552,"text":"那因為修正的內容涉及到刑事處罰跟司法的實務我是建議說是不是司法院跟法務部可以提供他們的意見提供給我們參考這是一個因為在我們所了解的剛剛很多委員提到說的比例原則那比例原則是不是也要需要按照緩刑期間的長短來做區分因為緩刑也有三年的也只有六個月等等的這個要不要再做考量那這個都是司法的實務上的考量"},{"start":3853.212,"end":3868.882,"text":"這是一個那剛剛民眾黨團有提到說受疫情處分的這個部分那受疫情處分不得參選的限制呢因為疫情處分呢譬如說是一顆罰金或者是一幅社會勞動它是有其圖形執行方式的替代手段"},{"start":3869.742,"end":3890.078,"text":"如果沒有執行完畢的話應該仍然視為是有期徒刑執行未必如果把他直接列入辦書而且讓他可以登記為候選人的話是有待商榷同樣的道理就是說因為第九款的部分大概所涉的部分都是不是原來第一款到第八款的重罪"},{"start":3894.461,"end":3916.974,"text":"我們現在是討論第九款所以是不是可以再請教一下法務部或者是說司法院他們對於這個所謂的實務上的見解是不是在執行上面沒有太大的困擾那我們原則上還是會以這個立法委員通過的這個意見為主不過我們還是希望維持原來本部書面報告的立場 謝謝"},{"start":3918.089,"end":3930.747,"text":"好 謝謝劉部長在請司法院跟法務部提供一天之前我跟鍾雪茗去問一下因為剛剛劉部長提到義科罰金這件事情現在的義科罰金是可以參選的嗎"},{"start":3933.805,"end":3948.174,"text":"要繳完要繳完才可以繳完可以還沒繳不行我們醫科罰金現在是這樣我對這個疫情的處分或是使用性權離時效益消滅這個其實有一個我們要考慮一下它裡面樣態有很多"},{"start":3964.525,"end":3989.433,"text":"我們可能大家覺得扶勞役可能就是不用進去監獄裡面可能都在外面大家可能這樣想但其實有一種是要進去在裡面但他是在裡面工作扶勞役的如果我們沒有把它界定的很清楚這一種的如果可以選他人在裡面他怎麼出來選"},{"start":3993.767,"end":3999.293,"text":"選上還要進去管這個可能大家要再思考,因為那個我說樣態太多了"},{"start":4002.266,"end":4025.497,"text":"我再補充一下疫情服務為什麼我個人不予支持的原因是因為他還是處分我們講的緩刑就是說你留下查看沒有給你任何處分可是疫情處分他還是有罪的他會留下前科的緩刑之後為什麼前科不會留著那是因為不一樣罪質不一樣的疫情處分包含三種"},{"start":4027.258,"end":4044.01,"text":"預科罰金 這個現行的法律 預科罰金只要繳完就可以了它是疫情處分裡面的最輕微的 它已經可以繳錢就不用關了再來是預扶社會勞動 出來外面做社扶社會勞動的但還有一種是在監獄裡面關的時候 預扶勞役的"},{"start":4049.073,"end":4065.765,"text":"所以疫情處分他還是判刑但只是把你的刑變成繳錢變成社會勞動變成在監獄裡面扶牢役所以我一直講說疫情處分的罪值都比緩刑還要重"},{"start":4066.425,"end":4090.866,"text":"那疫情處分裡面的最輕的就是說一顆罰金的我們都已經放掉了現行的法律不是修法是本來他繳完錢就可以參選了所以我們的意思是說可以請法務部和司法院表示意見我個人是覺得說要繼續講下去的話社會恐怕也要注意社會上的觀感"},{"start":4093.37,"end":4100.572,"text":"我們上次詢問的時候是4月8號然後4月8號中選會的報告裡面其實針對緩刑是覺得大家可以討論但是針對疫情處分,主委你看一下你們是反對喔?上一次是反對喔?"},{"start":4119.023,"end":4129.893,"text":"來 秀園請來 主席 還有各位同仁齁這個有關於反刑 宣告跟一刑處分誰輕誰重這個沒有輕重的問題沒有輕重的問題"},{"start":4134.102,"end":4159.291,"text":"那這個我們一顆滑金是一種異形處分那一顆滑金我們現在講完就可以參選嘛那我們現在只是把它的原則納入例外也就是說除了大家有共識的受反省宣告的我們是原則上要把它排除的嘛大家沒有意見現在有意見的是處分委員跟我之間的差異在於異形處分"},{"start":4160.231,"end":4172.619,"text":"不是蘇芬委員跟你啊 其他委員也是啦沒有啦 完美會委員支持我的看法沒有啦 他們都沒有支持你的異形處分啦好 那麼我們異形處分最典型就是異乎牢異那異乎牢異現在變成你沒有這個但書的話他不能選"},{"start":4184.431,"end":4210.482,"text":"義父勞役如果沒有這個但書他不能選那各位想想看義父勞役跟義科華金哪一個輕重啊這個其實沒有輕重的問題這是法官認為哪一種刑的執行罪能夠讓他改過圈散對他加以處罰所以本黨是把法律原則把它拉出來也就是說反刑宣告以外異刑處分也一樣可以納入但書讓他可以參選因為"},{"start":4212.76,"end":4229.66,"text":"現在我們法官在判決當中義務勞役還蠻不少的義務勞役還不少那義務勞役坦白講有時候就去掃公園啊怎麼樣那其實這種行為你叫他不能參選我覺得違反我們憲法對參政權的保障"},{"start":4232.864,"end":4237.351,"text":"許許委員 官官出來參選 參選完再回去關這個問題怎麼解決不是啊 這個的確是會發生啊不是 他不是褫奪公權嗎"},{"start":4247.127,"end":4271.947,"text":"也就是說如果有不適合再繼續從政的人就是用處得公權法官有處得公權這一項目嘛那既然法官不用處得公權結果你用這個輕罪然後反刑還有在執行當中執行當中可以但是異刑處分是已經法官覺得他根本沒必要這個刑了我們用勞動服務就好了那這種人更應該讓他參選以上"},{"start":4275.011,"end":4294.666,"text":"好那就請法務部跟司法院就是就委員剛剛當然除了法條你們的意見之外也麻煩就委員剛剛可能這個疫情處分的部分然後再給大家多一些知識的分享我們先請司法院我們廖佩玲法官"},{"start":4308.261,"end":4332.01,"text":"主席委員還有各位與會的先進大家好那司法院關於這個今天討論的修正草案的立場原章是認為說這個消極資格的變更是選舉政策的決定那所以這個部分我們是尊重那至於剛剛各位委員討論的關於這個疫情處分的這個部分我想要先確認一個前提就是那個第9條我們是以有期徒刑確定"},{"start":4333.63,"end":4345.257,"text":"為前提那剛剛大家討論的那個叫做義扶勞役就是要進去監獄這個部分是要判處罰金刑才會有所謂的義扶勞役這個在刑法的42條這邊有規定所以這個討論的前提好像跟我們這一條本來的第九款的本文是有一點出入的所以這個部分可能可以請大家再為釐清這樣子"},{"start":4360.405,"end":4380.989,"text":"那剛剛中選會有提到說就是那個疫情處分的宣告這個部分如果就是繳完幣之後就當然已經在現行的法律規定下就是符合參選的資格那這邊大家也可以再思考一個問題就是說當疫情處分他沒有去繳錢的時候可能還會回到有期徒刑的執行"},{"start":4387.29,"end":4400.543,"text":"那這個部分還是屬於政策決定只是說在法律的面向會有這些面向因為如果在他回去有期徒刑的執行在他公職服務的時間裡面可能就會有一段空窗大概是這樣 以上好 那就麻煩我們法務部李警察官"},{"start":4408.025,"end":4426.493,"text":"謝謝主席及各位委員的意見那關於這個異形處分的部分也是同司法院見解應該是說剛才討論委員主要在討論異形牢獄的部分異府牢獄的部分因為那就是前提是判罰進行那可能依照這款本文的狀況來看的話"},{"start":4428.674,"end":4454.154,"text":"就不會就不會落入這個消極資格的部分所以可能會限縮在這個一科法金跟一輔社會勞動的部分那一樣也會有執行上就是如果他如果執行他繳完的話當然沒有問題就是執行完畢但是也有可能是會有分歧一科的問題或是不繳納的問題也都會有適用上要考慮的部分但是呢因為這關於這部分"},{"start":4456.375,"end":4483.106,"text":"消極資格的限制呢那我們認為說在基本權保障還有限制參選的公益性上那也要兼顧被選舉權跟公共利益的維護在符合比例原則的前提下我們認為是屬於立法機關對於選舉制度的立法形成空間那原則上尊重大院的決定謝謝 以上好 謝謝 就我的理解啦就是剛剛我們司法院跟法務部的同仁有說一刑處分會是在"},{"start":4484.905,"end":4496.173,"text":"罰錢的情況下的處分才會有異形不是喔 抱歉抱歉異科罰金 異乎社會勞動 異乎勞役會出現的"},{"start":4498.581,"end":4506.928,"text":"抱歉,稍後我再釐清他們的講法就疫情處分有三種嘛一哥罰金、一福社會勞動、一福勞役這裡放寬會出現的問題是你沒有一哥罰金你不想繳錢一福社會勞動你還沒弄完"},{"start":4515.976,"end":4520.32,"text":"然後衣服老衣,還沒換衣服就先去參選所,這又要再換所以而且大家,這個罪質上絕對有輕重,罪質輕重衣服,衣鞋那個"},{"start":4531.26,"end":4557.741,"text":"疫情處分絕對比緩刑還要重緩刑就是說什麼處分都不用只要你不要再有其他的犯錯可是這個是所以他不會有留下前科所以這個疫情處分就是有處分有判決判決了我給你一顆罰金判決了到我給你轉服社會勞動或扶勞醫就好了但是呢他就是會留下前科那為什麼會留下前科不留下前科"},{"start":4558.281,"end":4580.042,"text":"這個就是罪質 他的罪質絕對有輕重那你說在異形處分三種有沒有孰輕孰重 我這個不知道 這可能沒有但是在緩刑跟異形處分之間 絕對有輕重之別罪質上有不同會有爭議就是說 他就不想繳錢 以一顆罰金馬上繳完就可以參選他說我不想繳錢 你就讓我參選"},{"start":4586.087,"end":4594.127,"text":"啊那個你不想去你還沒服完然後你那個刑期還沒服完你就要參選"},{"start":4595.933,"end":4619.814,"text":"那會跟我們第九款的前半段抵觸那我們會再製造一個相互的矛盾今天是要解決第九款裡面的矛盾輕重失衡判重的可以選判輕的不能選今天本來是單純要解決這個那如果你把疫情處分放進來會把它變成說前半段是"},{"start":4621.115,"end":4631.662,"text":"這個刑期沒有服完是不能參選你把它放進來變成說刑期沒有服完可以參選所以又製造了一個矛盾我們我們可能要三思阿信徐委員主席還有部長還有各位同仁這個有關於受反省宣告部分我們大家有共識這一部分就沒有問題那至於"},{"start":4650.219,"end":4654.079,"text":"疫情處分部分啦齁坦白講他沒有輕重的問題"},{"start":4655.325,"end":4682.86,"text":"也就是說他這個刑已經被法官換掉了他根本法官認為他沒必要這個刑而用勞動服務就可以處理所以他沒有輕重的問題但是我們這個問題因為選罷法的修正牽涉到人民的參政權所以我們也盡量我們說大家有共識我們現在把台灣的法治盡量能夠在有共識的情況之下達到我們現在能夠達到一個水準所以本席也贊同說那我們就"},{"start":4685.269,"end":4713.409,"text":"針對緩刑宣告部分疫情處分部分我們就暫時保留暫時保留部分我們就撤回這文字就修正你確認一下你的保留不是保留處委員會喔先不討論就不討論這部分那處長應該是這樣講吧我請教一下許委員就是緩刑的我們大家有共識了協商達成共識但是疫情處分這次不處理不處理啦這樣才"},{"start":4714.089,"end":4742.846,"text":"好 那個主席我們因為剛才我們有講就是說我們國民黨團是支持這個民眾黨團所提出來的這個修正動議那但是呢今天如果說大家的這個意見趨於一致那剛才徐委員也講就是說那就我們就是以緩刑宣告的就是那一行處分的就我們今天就不做處理那這樣的話我們委員會就可以達成這樣的共識和支持不好意思"},{"start":4743.766,"end":4765.647,"text":"我們這一個對緩刑宣告部分我們可以大家同意但是一選處分我們還是必須要堅持這個因為它其實有會太輕沒必要加以處理的問題所以將來我們可能還要再進步來就這個部分來加以修正"},{"start":4770.067,"end":4782.783,"text":"那這樣我們今天的委員會是怎麼樣是這條整個保留下來對 我要問我們程序問題您是要之後我們可能送那我們先保留"},{"start":4784.3,"end":4803.211,"text":"你們要聽到鎮長你的意思是說一顆罰金不要繳錢的話也可以參選一服社會勞動的話沒有服務完也可以參選那一服這個勞役在監獄裡面勞役沒有關完也可以參選我的意思是說你這樣的概念跟第九款的前判斷說前判斷是說"},{"start":4805.782,"end":4832.49,"text":"上位執行完畢啦上位執行完畢的話是不可以的那你這一段跟前半段就抵觸了我的意思是這樣子這個不是這樣因為我們區議就是不是啊議科罰金就是要繳完才能參選啊那叫執行結束啊那扶社會勞動就是你要扶完才能參選那叫執行完畢啊那你把它變成"},{"start":4833.615,"end":4842.999,"text":"各位我們一定要有謹記說罪行法定主義罪歸罪 刑歸刑而刑我們用反刑是在反刑期間觀察他的犯罪過程現在我們就稍微說了解就是醫科罰金的你不用繳錢也可以參選"},{"start":4851.983,"end":4879.833,"text":"你讓他社會勞動的沒有弄完也可以參選那現在就你們的版本就這樣子啊要扶勞役的沒有扶勞役完也可以參選你們的意思是這樣子但是這一段就跟法條的前半段法條前半段說這個上會執行結束執行會閉的通通都不能參選我意思是說這樣子是矛盾和衝突的啦這個是這樣啦因為我們必須原則上"},{"start":4881.565,"end":4908.675,"text":"盡量保障人民的公職的參選權利如果要褚瀆公權的法官要用15款褚瀆公權那法官不用褚瀆公權處理而用判嫌那嫌我們就判嫌如果你這樣子講的話那第九款全部都應該要如果照你的講法的話第九款要全部都刪除不是啦如果受褚瀆公權才不能參選的話第九款整款都要拿掉"},{"start":4910.235,"end":4923.202,"text":"韓忠謀的刑法原理 蔡敦敏的刑法總則我們都可以看出說 異刑處分是刑已經被異掉了他已經沒有刑了他變成是一顆滑尖 勞動服務"},{"start":4925.828,"end":4945.535,"text":"當他沒有執行沒有錯就是沒有執行我們才要但書也就讓他可以刪除不是啦 從你的邏輯啊你的邏輯就是說只有受褫奪公權的才不能選因為是法官判斷那第九款就應該全部刪除你應該是提全部刪除不是 我沒有講這個意思我知道你們兩個的歧義啦因為真的啦 我講一下"},{"start":4946.716,"end":4955.833,"text":"這樣好不好主席我覺得兩種方式啦一個呢就是用保留的方式另外一個是不是要休息然後再做一個協商好不好"},{"start":4959.739,"end":4977.025,"text":"沒有沒有不是不是 我知道差別在哪裡我知道因為鍾信兄跟淑芸姐的差異我知道了那個就是說 第一個 大家要有共識嘛 緩刑可以選嘛好 這個沒問題第二個 說疫情處分的部分 因為疫情處分我之前認為是兩種就是一顆髮金跟一副社會勞動嘛"},{"start":4978.365,"end":4997.897,"text":"但是我剛剛聽那個署分講的時候,他給我的資料,還有一個叫做義扶老益,因為老益是進監獄裡頭了嘛所以你們的目標是指,對嘛他沒有包括,他沒有包括,他跟你們想的是一樣的啦,所以你們要把這個釐清對,那我們就把它寫清楚,我們就不要寫疫情處分嘛,我們就乾脆寫醫科罰金"},{"start":5000.018,"end":5014.042,"text":"對我知道然後再把義服社會勞役寫成義服社會勞役就好了你不要寫疫情處分嘛明末久的意思這樣子是不是就不會包括在那個這個可以嗎你等一下問一下就不包括在那個進監獄的那個義服勞役嘛"},{"start":5017.094,"end":5035.301,"text":"這個就清楚了因為醫科罰金是可以選的你們是覺得說一服社會勞動跟醫科罰金是相等的意思差不多意思所以對一樣是清的一樣也是可以選的你的意思是說藉著建議那個不能選我們就把它明確化這樣是不是大家就比較沒有歧義"},{"start":5036.755,"end":5064.677,"text":"那個中興邱寧聽到我的意思嗎就沒有其餘的嘛因為他也沒有要包括那個義扶勞役喔他也沒有因為比那個義扶主義有三種的話玉貞委員的意見就是切開啦把名字寫把義扶把義刑不是啦有三種要讓你切開啦你的意思是這樣嗎直接把它寫得很清楚是指醫科罰金醫科罰金就可以那不用什麼我知道我知道陳委員的意思啦他要把義扶罰金啦然後扶社會社會勞動的那個把它寫在裡面啦"},{"start":5066.038,"end":5084.672,"text":"服務社會勞役他就不在裡面我知道他的意思讓我說一下這一個我不知道這樣寫這可能行政機關可能要想一下這個這樣寫好不好另外一個我要請教一下是不是司法院"},{"start":5089.996,"end":5096.4,"text":"這個可以用疫情的 這個當然是法官判的但實際上執行的是法院嗎是法院嗎對嘛 我的意思是實際上準博或什麼的 是法務部嘛 對不對所以我們今天 我知道許委員的那個意思"},{"start":5114.949,"end":5132.45,"text":"我覺得也有道理啦但我們今天如果只有寫疫情處分會有問題啦因為這太大了啦那我覺得共識在這裡休息五分鐘"},{"start":5134.506,"end":5158.843,"text":"不然你聽我講完啦 你聽我講完齁你聽我講完 我們休息五分鐘徐委員 林委或什麼然後我們跟法務部 司法部我們去看有沒有辦法把這個文字寫清楚然後 我們休息來處理然後再來處理 好不好 可不可以好 那我們現在就休息五分鐘"},{"start":5161.685,"end":5174.436,"text":"你不要拿麥克風講 沒關係文字要怎麼調 然後給大家看一下 你寫一下文字 寫文字"},{"start":5185.144,"end":5196.71,"text":"我也懷念執行了啦然後中選會可能也要 中選會也要啦 因為他們執行機關你們加油 先到這一席前帳會一席沒有啦 一個人的錢要一人八"},{"start":5207.294,"end":5213.035,"text":"不可以不想公佈立法啦,如果你有正確的要申請立法,不可以啦"},{"start":5229.92,"end":5238.41,"text":"曾經議科發生什麼問題?議席還不能進行完畢?因為你的議席還不能進行完畢,他也沒有資格要加油,人家經紀還沒進行完畢"},{"start":5246.459,"end":5252.082,"text":"他現在是要說有期徒刑,雖然還沒執行完畢,但是有期徒刑沒有執行完畢,還是可以假設沒有執行完畢啊"},{"start":5272.615,"end":5278.422,"text":"假設期間的時候 假設期間隨時可以進去的我們意見 反正我們是執行的其實都已經很難了 執行一段時間 結果發現經濟悄悄的就執行完畢了"},{"start":5291.714,"end":5311.794,"text":"這樣就算了啊 勞動服務也是一樣啊 做做的就好啊對啊 所以不知道 不不用說你多加一層衣服就好啊你衣服勞動這個 衣服勞動這多少啊 衣服勞動一萬塊啊沒有沒有 衣服勞動是一直來的衣服勞運一直來的"},{"start":5313.536,"end":5332.034,"text":"異府勞役齁我們現在是有期徒刑的嘛齁啊你如果判罰金才會異府勞役啊判有期徒刑的不會異府勞役換句話說你判罰金的異府勞役他也是可以的就是不是因為我們這次有期徒刑尚未執行"},{"start":5333.114,"end":5357.22,"text":"不是判罰金尚未執行,你如果罰金,用你的勞役,要不然執行完畢也是可以現在不行啊不不,判罰金,因為我們這裡是說判有期補刑你本刑不是刑,是罰金,他就可以參選所以你罰金沒有執行完畢也是可以參選啊對啊因為他沒有刑啊"},{"start":5359.421,"end":5374.595,"text":"它不是隨行的一種法法規定的是行我們這裡是有期徒刑行就是實行徒刑徒刑有期徒刑法規定徒刑你法規定的不是自己的啊這不是我親自己的啊"},{"start":5375.876,"end":5390.2,"text":"所以這條文是有期徒刑,不是判罰刑,義父勞役不可以執行,判罰刑就可以我們是說...我們沒有寫疫情處分,我們是說國有會執行我們是說判處有期徒刑,國有會執行,義父勞役不可以執行"},{"start":5400.543,"end":5401.585,"text":"我們是講前段的問題"},{"start":5411.684,"end":5425.65,"text":"你這些都是這種大的事情你這去叫叫那裡怎麼可以選擇啊對啊 又放得太寬了一點都沒限收叫叫就不用理他"},{"start":5443.039,"end":5446.861,"text":"社會勞動也沒有問題啊"},{"start":5472.339,"end":5483.091,"text":"有時候會被他放得太寬所以"},{"start":5491.821,"end":5492.201,"text":"老爺嘿啊"},{"start":5571.869,"end":5572.553,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":5642.978,"end":5646.877,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":5837.073,"end":5838.128,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":6401.493,"end":6402.956,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":6458.353,"end":6460.477,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":6679.65,"end":6681.459,"text":"谢谢观看 下次见"},{"start":7177.073,"end":7179.462,"text":"谢谢观看下集再见"},{"start":7643.387,"end":7644.838,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":7822.919,"end":7822.939,"text":"市長"},{"start":7850.649,"end":7853.07,"text":"因為法官不會做這個社會勞動的宣告"},{"start":7880.232,"end":7881.633,"text":"我們繼續宣告那剛剛休息"},{"start":7901.86,"end":7905.762,"text":"本黨團認為還要再進行黨團協商必須要再進行黨團協商還要再黨團協商一起黨團協商"},{"start":7923.53,"end":7937.141,"text":"我們先知都沒有趕快回去,堅持咧"},{"start":7944.104,"end":7952.894,"text":"好那我們因為為了達成共識我們第26條第9款我們就送保留協商啦"},{"start":7954.444,"end":7979.049,"text":"等一下我可不可以說一句還是你要講我覺得我們委員會應該是這樣講好不好受緩刑的我們有共識不用再協商了但是後面這個什麼疫情處分者這個部分送協商才不會浪費時間好不好大家他們如果協商沒有成受緩刑的同意張宏樂委員所講的對好不好"},{"start":7981.049,"end":8000.68,"text":"我同意剛剛張宏祿委員講的這個就是受緩刑的我們就是大家意見都一致嘛那許委員這個我們再另行討論啦或者是你要黨團協商的時候來討論但是針對總統副總統選舉罷免法我們把詐房放進去這個也一起送到政黨協商啦好不好好"},{"start":8005.39,"end":8027.296,"text":"那個對不起主席那個是第六款嗎就是把那個炸房等一下等一下好我們就26條第九款就是受海情宣告者不在此先這部分是大家要有共識的那其一部分就送出委員會進行黨團協商好吧第九款的部分就這樣"},{"start":8033.126,"end":8049.842,"text":"因為這個必須要整體一起處理,整體一起送黨員協商也就是緩刑宣告部分也是重點沒有,這部分我們就跟黨員協商的時候,委員會的意見緩刑宣告應該是大家共識,那文字怎麼修,大家再協商"},{"start":8055.455,"end":8064.564,"text":"好因為本來就要整條沒有辦法這本來同一款也沒辦法也沒辦法只能處理這一款"},{"start":8066.809,"end":8088.826,"text":"好那我們第九款的部分就先這樣那因為在翁小林委員有在第五款也有提出修正那以及蘇巧惠委員剛剛在修正動議都有提到詐欺犯罪危害防治條例翁小林委員是放在第五款"},{"start":8089.887,"end":8111.996,"text":"那蘇巧惠委員是放在第六款那這部分不曉得大家意見如何文字都一樣嘛都是禍詐欺犯罪危害防治條例好那我們請內政部給來意見"},{"start":8116.221,"end":8135.216,"text":"有關於這個詐欺就是簡稱叫詐房條例因為我們看到說那個他是根據刑法第339條之4個加重其刑責那在那個這個選罷法26條裡面的話呢我們會覺得說放在第6款的部分會比較像因為在第6款裡面已經有提到第339條之4或"},{"start":8137.778,"end":8152.443,"text":"詐欺犯罪危害防治條例之罪也就是那個李博義委員他們的提的修正動議會比較好那翁小林委員的部分他是犯在組織犯罪啦齁那這個不一定是全部是組織犯罪的部分我想這樣在那個法理上面可能會比較好這樣"},{"start":8154.244,"end":8182.193,"text":"好那我們是不是就尊重內政部的意見就是我們詐欺犯罪危害防治條例那就放在第六好沒問題尊重內政部的意見好那文字也是列出來一下好沒關係意識人員繼續處理文字的部分那另外還"},{"start":8183.666,"end":8200.491,"text":"不是啊 我們就照修正條文通過第六條這樣就好了啊第六款啊 第六款啊李博弈委員少了防治兩個字喔不是啊 新的有補啊新的有補啊第一個他們撤銷了嘛"},{"start":8203.357,"end":8212.282,"text":"沒有啦對啦 有補了啦 我有看過啦"},{"start":8222.895,"end":8243.513,"text":"好 那我們就按照這個修正動議 第三次的修正動議的文字來通過那另外林一錦委員有提的我看一下第三 一樣是26條第三款"},{"start":8246.348,"end":8252.793,"text":"我們內政委員會 提案委員沒有來我們就不處理我們第26條第3款就不予處理什麼人都一樣沒有來就不處理同意 同意林議員委員提案不予處理"},{"start":8294.009,"end":8298.03,"text":"好那我們現在進行總統副總統選舉判明法的法條討論一樣是第26條"},{"start":8303.572,"end":8329.933,"text":"好 李博一召委也有提修正動議我們先處理可能會有共識的就是26條第6款一樣跟剛剛公職人員選舉罷免法一樣在這個第339條之四的後面再加上或詐欺犯罪危害防治條例"},{"start":8335.956,"end":8358.437,"text":"有關於我說明一下來主席謝謝不好意思我說明一下我們剛剛選辦法26條放進去嘛那我們一樣在總統副總統選舉罷免法裡面我們一樣把它放進去把這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例放進來謝謝所以我們的修正動議裡面有防治兩個字嗎有加入嗎"},{"start":8360.439,"end":8375.946,"text":"那一樣就是跟剛才公職委員宣布辦理法一樣那我們是不是就照修正動議通過請問各位委員有關第26條第6款的部分有無異議如果沒有異議就按修正動議通過總統 總統 副總統"},{"start":8395.354,"end":8395.374,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":8422.872,"end":8423.456,"text":"方小林委員"},{"start":8427.489,"end":8447.293,"text":"好 請李博弈委員我繼續說明 總統副總統選擇法在第六條裡面我們加了架防進來之外呢我們第九條是沒有做更動相對其他政黨的版本是不一樣的第九款裡面我們是沒有做更動所以第九款好像的部分對 相對其他政黨版本是不一樣的可以來討論那我是覺得總統副總統這個我們不宜放鬆啦那這個社會會比較有這個期待 謝謝"},{"start":8455.455,"end":8473.375,"text":"好也就是第26條第9款的部分民進黨我們李柏毅召委建議召員原條文啦那不曉得總統副總統全體報名法第26條第9款也就是緩刑的部分不曉得大家有沒有意見民進黨這邊"},{"start":8479.18,"end":8506.699,"text":"現在是在討論魯柏宇議員所提的那個總統副總統是吧對我知道他說是緩情案選那第九款劉委員有提緩情的部分以前我們在修這兩個法都一起修的他說要比較嚴格"},{"start":8512.255,"end":8530.972,"text":"沒有問題啊就是總統跟副總統就是維持原案歐小林的提案是有懷疑沒有了沒有討論了好那我們就副總統宣舉報名法我們就請那個李博弈交為剛剛提的修正動議第六條好吧這個"},{"start":8533.734,"end":8547.265,"text":"榨氣防治一個款的部分榨氣防治的部分把它納進去其餘調溫不予修正我不曉得大家有無異議無異議就這樣好"},{"start":8571.096,"end":8572.859,"text":"給你休息兩分鐘多三十秒"},{"start":8581.543,"end":8581.703,"text":"主席"},{"start":8599.11,"end":8599.571,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":8619.04,"end":8619.241,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":8640.623,"end":8647.226,"text":"我們不用自己去扭扭,不想吐我知啊,那樣子還好嗎?應該好啊,對不起,我們差一點點"},{"start":8662.414,"end":8664.136,"text":"來 我載你來來 我載你"},{"start":8677.629,"end":8678.33,"text":"現在已經是6點45分鐘"},{"start":8704.176,"end":8714.92,"text":"請問各位委員照剛才的協商結論通過請問有無異議無異議通過那做一下決議討論事項所列議案公職人員選舉罷免法第26條條文修正草案及總統副總統選舉罷免法第26條條文修正草案均已審查完略"},{"start":8733.038,"end":8743.22,"text":"拟據審查報告提報院會討論請問在場委員公職人員選舉罷免法我們後續還要經過黨團協商總統、副總統選舉罷免法第26條的修正草案不需經由黨團協商在場委員是否有異議無異議那本案於"},{"start":8759.264,"end":8779.17,"text":"本案於院會討論時有本席做補充說明審查通過之條文、條次引述條文部分文字及相關法之用語授權主席及議事人員整理本次修正之條文行政機關如有補充立法說明會後請盡速送至內政委員會必立納入審查報告本次會議到此結束 散會"}]}},{"id":"168810","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168810","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be54429af98b214e9ba9de6e07bf52eec0dd49a9438ec9e4ea00b3486914daaa45fd855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:06:36 - 11:23:04","影片長度":"00:16:28","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部就「脆弱家庭兒少支持服務及兒少保護個案處遇之跨體系協作與銜接機制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日及23日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-23","start_time":"2026-04-23T11:06:36+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-23T11:23:04+08:00","duration":988,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.35096875,"end":51.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.082843750000002,"end":19.454093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.23409375,"end":23.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.26346875,"end":53.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.541593750000004,"end":60.899093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.236593750000004,"end":101.73659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.19784375,"end":93.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.17534375000001,"end":107.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.16596875,"end":127.01534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.33596875,"end":138.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.14846875,"end":140.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.66721875000002,"end":168.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.50659375,"end":186.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.03971875000002,"end":189.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.21221875,"end":200.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.10096875000002,"end":208.45409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.72846875000002,"end":209.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.01096875000002,"end":213.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.02784375000002,"end":213.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.68534375000002,"end":214.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.09034375000002,"end":222.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.07659375,"end":221.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.08471875,"end":244.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.87034375000002,"end":246.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.43971875000003,"end":273.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.63534375,"end":264.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.83221875000004,"end":311.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.09971875,"end":289.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.05409375,"end":313.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.76284375,"end":312.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.38721875000005,"end":312.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.12971875,"end":318.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.46221875000003,"end":338.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.11721875,"end":343.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.70721875000004,"end":381.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.27221875000004,"end":373.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.34284375000004,"end":380.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.54096875000005,"end":417.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.94034375,"end":442.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.91534375000003,"end":455.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.57159375000003,"end":497.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.73784375,"end":503.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.31096875000003,"end":523.0209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.9128437500001,"end":513.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.39221875,"end":539.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.4740937500001,"end":602.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.0759687500001,"end":604.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.8015937499999,"end":603.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.52721875,"end":675.5034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.6384687500001,"end":702.6553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.9253437500001,"end":717.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.5659687500001,"end":708.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.18909375,"end":716.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":717.5390937500001,"end":723.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":719.6484687500001,"end":720.3740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.24721875,"end":725.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.08221875,"end":725.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.2465937500001,"end":738.5147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":729.38534375,"end":729.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.2878437500001,"end":732.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":737.5359687499999,"end":737.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":738.44721875,"end":743.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.20159375,"end":780.83721875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部長可不可以給我們意見好 謝謝委員的關心確實這個資訊流是最重要因為我們這個社安網跨的那個部會太多 單位太多所以在一起的時候就已經開始在做這個資訊的串接所以現在已經完成"},{"start":158.674,"end":168.473,"text":"這34個不只是醫療衛福比如說在精神這個照護資訊系統還有跟保護令這邊跟那個毒房"},{"start":169.574,"end":186.102,"text":"那甚至有跨到那個這個對司法的這個系統這樣這個已經進行完成這個串接啦這個是已經完成的那至於說這個獄警的"},{"start":187.362,"end":208.416,"text":"預警的這個目前是在發展一些模型看能不能更早的更主動式的有一個預警這個是現在在發展中是不過我們第一線的反應好像是說這個資料庫之前還是有一道高牆執行上要重複登"},{"start":209.417,"end":221.17,"text":"對還是有需要在接近的地方那個沒有我相信這個在我們過去做這些資料系統串接的時候都有類似的情形因為總是"},{"start":223.157,"end":245.632,"text":"本來各個這個系統它的這個欄位名稱定義上有時候都不太一樣所以在串的時候是最大的障礙那所以重複登載的問題我們從設陣慢慢去跨到不同的這個部會之間的系統我們再繼續優化"},{"start":246.513,"end":261.68,"text":"OK所以聽起來如果已經串接都非常好的話那是不是可以針對這34項的系統的串接現況提供一份清單哪些系統已經實現了這個雙向自動化的數據交換哪些系統還留在手動查詢或單項匯入的部分"},{"start":262.2,"end":275.632,"text":"能不能夠提供相關的資料給我們做參考還有跨部會的資料借接實務上需要的法規或技術障礙如果有的話在哪裡是可不可以在兩個禮拜裡面也跟我們再補充其實這個這個資料串接的問題其實"},{"start":279.355,"end":294.457,"text":"我們在醫療一樣有同樣的問題所以才會在去年開始啟動就是那個台灣那個台灣call data那個定義把它一樣所以現在已經有三家醫學中心可以即時串了"},{"start":294.938,"end":314.15,"text":"那這個概念我們也放在社福上面所以現在今年已經開始啟動把這個社政的資料也納入台灣call data social就是社政體系也採那個醫療的那個概念所以未來這個資料的串接就會更順暢太好了那就麻煩把這個資料這個我們那個資訊處理處長很優秀他都不斷的在推進這樣"},{"start":318.493,"end":338.502,"text":"OK好那就兩個禮拜謝謝那再過來談到這個兒少的工作證民間團體跟社會大眾非常關心這個兒少工作證的入法因為在去年的時候這樣的共識是透過放鬆政策網路參與平台的提案有9000位的民眾也有復裕"},{"start":339.242,"end":359.92,"text":"要求要任何會接觸到兒少的工作者都必須要持有兒童工作證或兒少工作證以確保其過去無性傷害無內帶兒少的這個前科紀錄那這個只是一個消極的這個資格的規定包括行政程序其實不只是這樣應該是一個防堵兒少傷害的第一道的過濾網"},{"start":361.221,"end":390.481,"text":"那根據這個提案的通過衛福部在去年6月2號也正式回應說會針對這一次的部分也在會加以研修那在4月21號終於預告了這個兒少全法的修訂的版本那也包括了這一部分這個真的是謝謝衛福部這方面的努力不過也有一些是遺漏的部分在這邊跟部長來討論一下因為在預告的版本裡面有關於兒少工作證的部分主要就是會"},{"start":391.481,"end":416.84,"text":"說在第6條的定義第109條的消極資格跟116條的舉證證明那在前面的提案裡面社會大眾期待是希望任何會接觸到兒少的工作者都應該納入可是在定義的地方第6條的第15款所謂的兒少及少年工作者僅限於經中央主管機關公告提供兒童及少年有關教育照顧"},{"start":418.782,"end":442.215,"text":"訓練且無其他法律規定之人員資格之人員那這部分可能會跟社會大眾的期待有所落差那我們以這個最近碰到的案例來做討論的話其實在今年的二月份就有一位羅姓的婦科醫師他針對這個在看人的時候或者是他本身持有兒少性影像"},{"start":442.975,"end":457.648,"text":"病患的視密照所以同時他還參加很多的網路來散佈影音所以這部分已經被起訴而且是從中的要量刑那另外有一位診所的治療師涉及這個性侵"},{"start":458.428,"end":485.219,"text":"他在來接受原治療的這個兒童很多都還未成年是學齡前的兒童那這部分假設說這樣的案件經過判刑確定有第109條規定的不得擔任的犯罪他應該就不適合繼續在這個工作場域來接觸兒童如果是依照我們所一般的認知的話可是依照目前這個護護部的版本的定義"},{"start":486.1,"end":494.254,"text":"這個都不會被納入兒少工作證的範圍因為我們目前所看到的這個只有教育照顧跟訓練針對治療的部分其實並沒有規範到"},{"start":498.786,"end":519.371,"text":"那我們目前的醫師法跟語言治療師法裡面有關兒少保護也沒有類似的消極資格這就是我們擔心的部分所以我們不希望說出現一個案件修一個法這個事實上是非常反不濟潔而且是無法全面的去處理到就是有關於在兒少工作證裡面全面保護"},{"start":520.191,"end":538.773,"text":"好像還是有疑慮的地方那第二案件呢就是台中這個棒球教練性侵這個發生了這個個案這是有關於資料的一個串接在這個台中的個案裡面主要是主管機關在第116條的時候呢他大於去監督下方"},{"start":539.914,"end":558.389,"text":"調查這個教職員的前科因為在116條裡面是規定雇用人員要應查詢並且要定期的來查詢相關人員有沒有不得擔任的情形可是現在事務上最困擾基層的固執是要怎麼查他如果手邊沒有方便的查閱方式的話其實是有他的困難度"},{"start":558.849,"end":585.715,"text":"那外部在延伤的过程里面是不是已经有跟相关部会讨论如何串接相关的资讯来如何确保资料库的即时性与勾迹的功能是否能够建置一个一站式的查询平台那个证明的方式是怎么样将来是要发实体的耳哨工作证吗还是用电子的这个耳哨工作证资料的即时性如何确保那如果某人在在职期间发生违法情势系统能不能够"},{"start":586.295,"end":602.163,"text":"主動的去告知雇主而不是等到雇主去做定期查詢才發現那這些都是要法規上路前要確認的不要讓我們好像這個修法非常的漂亮可是實務上執行上都會卡關這部分不知道部長"},{"start":603.163,"end":631.618,"text":"有沒有什麼意見跟委員說明那麼這一次我們所提出的兒少全法的草案是採納有兒少工作證的精神但是並不是真正去發一個證因為這個行政成本非常的高在執行面上卻有難度所以我們在這一次的草案裡面就列出了那麼兒少工作者那麼他的消極資格那未來配合一個系統的查詢"},{"start":632.578,"end":657.17,"text":"讓他可以去check 僱用者也好 或者是家長什麼 他可以去查到那麼這個是消極的資格 容易查詢那當然這個最重要就是後面那個資訊如何匯流 那個是我們的挑戰 沒有錯那至於說適用對象 我們這裡把它排除其他法律規定的人員主要是考慮到這個其他的有 最多的就是醫事人員"},{"start":657.95,"end":673.849,"text":"醫事人員因為他有他的醫事人員專業法規的規定那我們現在也建立了我們自己的資訊專區他甚至有肺躁最嚴重會有肺躁那前面其他的這些人是沒有所謂的肺躁這件事情所以才需要有這樣的這個"},{"start":677.111,"end":701.816,"text":"這個工作證的這個精神那我們醫事人員如果你被廢照你就根本就不能做了就沒有這個問題所以我們是因為這樣的考量所以把他這邊寫一個排除其他法律已經有規定人員資格的那回到他的醫事人員法規去管理的概念那未來我們現在在預告中那就看看也許也可以再討論看看"},{"start":702.976,"end":724.235,"text":"是 那這個兩個問題也麻煩如果有詢問資料也可以讓我們來做參考我相信在法條審查的時候也一定會有非常大的討論最後一個就是有關於保障而銷的醫療自主權不曉得部長有沒有知道這個個案2021年我們這個家園洪水這個是我們健保當時候那個"},{"start":727.037,"end":755.302,"text":"開始幾副那個時候在我這個署長任內開始幾副咖T的時候那個的受這個前幾個應該是第二個或第三個這個接受治療的對那簡單的說就是這一位還沒有成年可是在他的母親的監法律監督員之下 鑑定之下呢母親不願意讓他接受該有的治療其一的治療可是家人同學很想要有完整的治療"},{"start":756.282,"end":779.721,"text":"這個當中發生了一些牽扯的問題那這個過程裡面 扮演重要角色的台大兒少醫務社工蔡孟儒社工就表示說當時醫療專業人員陷入到法律與倫理的兩難包括當病童跟法定代理人意見相準的時候醫師如何能夠尊重這個兒童的意願可能這樣會面臨這個違法的指控可是如果僅依家長同意形式的話就會違反到醫療專業倫理跟"},{"start":781.104,"end":809.416,"text":"病患權益的這個承諾這個大家可以了解那這個再過來是討論到這個CRC其實也針對於我們台灣如何針對兒少醫療的這個保護有沒有更這個前進的部分那在2017年兒少權力公約就已經開始針對這個台灣這部分希望能夠加強來保護到兒童那目前的目標是在2020前在18到12到18歲的兒少可以自己掛好"},{"start":810.356,"end":837.799,"text":"看診等等那目前不知道有沒有實際的這個進展這部分可能要麻煩衛部能夠持續來努力那我們也了解台灣目前是缺少具備法律效率的青少年成熟評估的這個制度那美國有所謂的成熟未成年人的原則那英國有吉利克能力的這個都是用來保護這些兒少在具備"},{"start":839.337,"end":860.185,"text":"這個理解力跟判斷能力的前提之下呢都有機會來不一定要取得家長的同意就能夠來落實兒少最佳權益的這個處理模式所以請問部長台灣何時才能夠有以成熟度評估來制度性的保障兒少的醫療自主權那第二部分我們也知道在醫療法的第63、64條是有制定說"},{"start":863.486,"end":890.706,"text":"這個未成年人需要取得待人同意的例外情況就是緊急情況下不再此現那類似這個家園的個案將來有可能利用這樣的法律規範來保障他的就醫權益嗎好謝謝委員這個剛剛您提到這個個案呢當時候就是台大醫院的這個醫護人員呢那麼按照這個我們CRC的精神國家兒童的兒少的最佳"},{"start":891.246,"end":912.392,"text":"利益的考量所以按照這個兒少法提出緊急安置然後代理侵權然後再經過法院判定那麼判決指定這個醫療特別代理人那麼才繼續接受那個後續的化學治療那麼跟最後的這個細胞治療到目前都很好"},{"start":913.132,"end":930.587,"text":"那麼不過畢竟他的程序非常的繁瑣他又透過緊急安置然後又透過法院所以這個確實程序是很繁瑣那麼如何讓這個未成年人的這個醫療自主能夠表達雖然我們現在有這個叫做"},{"start":932.508,"end":954.275,"text":"這個病人自主權利法啦但是那個還是排除了未成年人所以我已經請醫師進行委託研究在今年年底之前那麼就這個哪些情境之下那麼這個如何以這個成熟度評估那麼兒童兒少的最佳利益來"},{"start":957.917,"end":982.53,"text":"讓這個這個兒少的自主權特別是在醫療自主權的部分能夠得以被重視什麼適用這個我想這個今年年底前我們會提出一個規劃如果有研議的內容的話是不是兩個月也可以先給我們知道一下我們應該是剛開始在做這個委託研究我們在有一定的成果的時候就一定會來請委員指導謝謝部長 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謝謝石部長的報告現在開始詢答 受以下宣告一 有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報二 本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘 內席委員4加1分鐘30點半截止"},{"start":1996.207,"end":2022.659,"text":"發言登記4.委員如果書面諮詢請於商會前提出預期不受理5.暫定10點半休息10分鐘6.原則上11點半處理臨時提案11點截止受案現在請登記第二委員 另一位請召回發言謝謝主席 麻煩我們的石部長有請石部長"},{"start":2027.717,"end":2035.802,"text":"副院長 副院長也謝謝能夠讓我們的兒少全法能夠進度到預告可以儘速的送到院內"},{"start":2036.929,"end":2064.32,"text":"那部長這次宣判之後呢我想社會上有很多的討論我先說明我今天不是要去評論法院的判決也不是針對我們的個案事實去做判斷那這些都應該回到司法的程序裡面去做處理可是這個事件提醒了我們一個很重要的事情兒少保護案件本來就是高度複雜的一個專業工作我們面對的是處在處境最脆弱的孩子"},{"start":2065.575,"end":2075.705,"text":"我還是要再三的強調國家的責任不是只有讓孩子活下來而是要讓孩子活得安全有品質而且要有尊嚴而且要有發展的可能"},{"start":2076.4,"end":2105.387,"text":"因此我今天要來請教的是制度問題也就是責任權限資訊跟支持你是否事實上是對等的因為制度越清楚孩子才越安全那標準的越明確我覺得專業判斷才能夠事實上是穩定的首先我要來談的是兒少保護跟收出養之間的衍接問題從這次的事件所呈現的整個制度樣貌來看的話兒少保護個案在進入收出養服務後會同時涉及到政府端"},{"start":2106.047,"end":2132.325,"text":"跟民間機構兩個不同的系統那政府的社福中心原本掌握的事實上是家庭脆弱性跟我們的保護的風險而收出養呢就聚焦在所謂的媒合跟我們的出養的準備那這兩套工作邏輯本質上就是不相同的可是如果中間沒有一個整合機制的話孩子的風險就可能會在這種制度的縫隙當中凱凱案發生之後"},{"start":2134.144,"end":2162.373,"text":"我也很努力的推動修法以及參與我們的討論會議以後目前制度我知道有調整了也就是兒少保護跟收出養的業務原則上是已回到各縣市政府的社福中心來主責執行可是實務上還是存在一個關鍵的模糊點這兩項業務是否是同一組別因為過去我們不管是看培羅米達案如果同樣都是政府部門可是只要分屬不同的組那可能"},{"start":2163.093,"end":2191.318,"text":"中間就是還是會有漏掉的那個狀況所以不是說我今天回到政府就沒有問題沒有跨到民間單位就沒有問題是不是真的是在同一個組別甚至同一個社工負責其實我看起來沒有一個很明確的一致的那個制度設計也就是說即使同在公部門的體系我們的風險資訊是不是能夠完整的被承接跟延續還是有很多不確定性所以想問部長是說"},{"start":2194.167,"end":2217.242,"text":"目前兒少保護個案在進入出養的流程的時候有沒有建立一套的標準化的風險轉移的那個移轉機制包括原本兒保的風險案中的風險評估家庭背景啊照顧風險以及孩子的醫療身心狀況是不是能夠完整的且一致性的被移交或者是公安合作"},{"start":2218.004,"end":2246.13,"text":"部長謝謝委員的指教在回答您的這個問題之前我也想藉這個機會公開的給我們全國的社工人員打氣我想社工跟我們所有的醫事人員一樣都擔負著救死負傷那麼面臨的狀況跟條件都是多元複雜而且經常都有它的緊急性所以在過去我們也因為醫事人員的這種特殊"},{"start":2247.41,"end":2263.727,"text":"這個工作的特殊性修訂了醫療法82條去明訂了那麼這個醫事人員在過程當中那麼如果有一些不如預期的結果那麼是以故意過失且違反了注意義務跟"},{"start":2265.809,"end":2282.924,"text":"專業考量財富形式跟民事的責任那我想社工特別是保護社工也好或者是我們很多的這些脆弱家庭協助的這個情況跟醫事人員其實相當的類似他們所面臨的挑戰"},{"start":2284.105,"end":2307.213,"text":"不確定性跟他的急迫性的經常是有的所以我們也很希望這個社界給予我們各界呢給予我們社工支持那麼對於這個法律見解上那麼我們也在明天會邀請這個邀請了很多的專家大家共同來來討論那更重要的是在我們兒少"},{"start":2309.274,"end":2328.25,"text":"現行的兒少法裡面第五條也很清楚地去明定當兒少遭受不法權益侵犯的時候國家是負協助跟保護的責任也就是說這個是國家的責任 這個完全是正確的"},{"start":2329.892,"end":2346.911,"text":"因此透過每一次的不幸個案的討論跟改善來提升我們對兒少所以從這個案子發生之後這個案子最主要是脆弱家庭跟收出養這個中間有一個gap"},{"start":2349.714,"end":2379.205,"text":"那過去呢 收出養呢那麼不見得是由地方政府介入它可以透過這個收出養的媒合機構所以在這個事件之後呢我們已經重新調整同時也入法未來在這個收出養的過程當中呢那麼地方政府必須扮演一定的角色那麼包含這中間如果涉及到安置的時候也要走入安置的程序當然這裡面最重要的還有一塊就是因為跨體系或跨系統或跨區域"},{"start":2379.585,"end":2405.535,"text":"所以資訊的串接是非常重要啦所以在這個事件之後呢我們也已經建立了脆弱家庭的一個資訊平台那另外社安網也去嘗試串聯34個系統那麼就是希望讓這個資訊能夠串接的不要漏接先讓資訊能夠串接的好那至於說人員上剛剛您特別提到那個是不是要固定一組"},{"start":2406.195,"end":2421.775,"text":"我想這個這個我們在跟地方因為這個過去都是地方分工啦他怎麼樣分工的問題我們再來持續的來討論部長我想你剛回應我覺得也很重要所以可能給你"},{"start":2423.077,"end":2442.473,"text":"這邊兩個建議第一個是不是針對於制度到底清不清楚這些東西甚至對於我覺得這次的事情引起我覺得社工界一直長期以來擔負這麼多社會問題來協助政府去解決的時候應該要讓他們相對應的事實上是被"},{"start":2443.7,"end":2469.727,"text":"能夠去有資源去到位的去協助他們所以我建議是不是應該接下來我覺得衛福部應該要去傾聽社工的聲音能不能召開北中南東的一個座談也好論壇也好讓大家把他們過去現在碰到的問題地方政府和中央政府甚至他們在民間碰到的一些問題可以跟你們畢竟你是中央最高的主管機關"},{"start":2470.707,"end":2490.843,"text":"來做處理那後邊呢我們也希望說能夠來討論制度我覺得這才是真正解決一直以來沒有很明確的東西然後只是講說那丟進去去做然後呢做了之後當發生問題的時候你要社工去承擔我覺得這坦白講沒有一個明確的指引的時候然後看誰"},{"start":2491.567,"end":2520.751,"text":"比較不幸的碰到一些事情的時候要去承擔我覺得不是一件好事所以我今天為什麼會去問這個收支局長我也希望說你們不會因為回到政府部門之後這中間如果沒有連接的話還是同樣問題不好意思今天我就會花比較長的時間就是第二個問題就是你的一組折多協力在實務上的運作我一直看不懂因為世安網長期長調一組折多協力這方向是正確的可是關鍵在於這套機制是否真的"},{"start":2521.371,"end":2545.886,"text":"能夠到決策的程式如果你講我主責我醫療主責我就主責嗎你講我社政主責我就主責嗎你講我警政主責我就主責嗎如果我不主責的話誰會對我怎麼樣不會甚至你叫我這個社工主責那我就主責嗎那如果我不主責會怎麼樣所以我覺得這個我真的看不懂說那到底為什麼誰規定了誰主責那最後就是什麼很願意承擔的人去主責"},{"start":2550.989,"end":2578.83,"text":"主責如果發生事情的時候他還要去承擔更多的責任義務所以我不太懂是說一直以來每次在處理這個所以我想請教部長在兒少保護跟收出養的案件當中主責單位的權限範圍目前該怎麼去界定醫療教育警政司法心理衛生跟民間團體等協力單位在什麼樣的狀況之下要實際介入這些協力單位是只提供資訊嗎還是要參與共同評估跟決策"},{"start":2579.631,"end":2608.165,"text":"可是最後就是認真的人好像你去做了然後最後就是你去承擔所以如果協力單位都沒有機師回應甚至沒有做一些決議執行的時候有沒有追蹤回報或者處理機制那他不回報我們也沒關係嗎反正那到底誰規定了這個主責那他就要去承擔什麼樣的責任對高風險的案件如何建立跨體系的共同決策的流程明確的規範召集機制參與對象跟後續的責任這些都有定嗎"},{"start":2609.125,"end":2623.013,"text":"有很清楚的讓誰知道我要甚至我要進一步的去緊張衛福部去年7月就已經提出來一組織多協力的分工原則可顯然最大的問題是我們到底要怎麼讓制度從原則走向實際可操作的流程"},{"start":2624.204,"end":2646.032,"text":"跟委員說明 這有兩點第一個 主責不代表所有的責任都是他因為很多的個案需要跨域的合作所以各自要本期他的責任去完成並不是說主責的就是所有的成敗或所有的責任他一個人扛 並不是這樣第二個 因為在社安網裡頭我們的對象很廣 我的報告裡面對象很廣"},{"start":2653.135,"end":2670.493,"text":"那麼他可能有一些是精神個案有些是脆弱家庭有些是這個保護個案那有些是要酒飲那個都有不同的所以我們所講的一組折多寫一期的概念是說他可能有不同的category"},{"start":2671.013,"end":2693.748,"text":"那但是進來之後大家要一起幫忙啦對那這個大家一起幫忙大家不一起幫忙的時候怎麼辦咧有誰可以誰是主要的那個上頭的那個要我主責然後我主責我要去協力其他人的時候其他人不配合我的時候我怎麼辦我如果這個社工我怎麼辦我怎麼去做處理似乎沒有一個這樣那就是自己"},{"start":2694.341,"end":2710.076,"text":"持續做下去所以第三個問題就要來問的是說那這次的整個的我覺得社工的工作範圍跟責任分工是什麼如果這次現行的制度發展已經讓社工在某些情境上被納入保證人地位的"},{"start":2710.937,"end":2729.136,"text":"這樣的討論的話那我們就必須更清楚的回答一個問題在這樣的法律框架下社工的工作範圍跟責任分工究竟是你是如何界定的因為目前最大的困境在於社工的實務工作高度多元包含兒少保護啊最後家庭的服務啊 收出養啊居家托育啊各自的工作內容"},{"start":2729.756,"end":2755.492,"text":"介入的深度跟可運用權限都有很大差異可是在責任認定上這些差異是否有被清楚的反應仍然事實上是有落差的所以如果工作範圍沒有被制度化說明的話責任界限又透過個案事後的解讀來界定的話就容易出現一個問題同樣的職務在不同案件中可能被賦予不同責任標準導致第一線沒有辦法建立穩定的專業判斷所以想問部長"},{"start":2757.493,"end":2785.406,"text":"衛福部是不是會進一步去釐清不同類型的社工業務的工作範圍權限邊界跟責任內容並建立可供實務跟司法共同參考的標準這個專業範圍確實不容易完全界定但是我們盡有可能的去發展一些指引這個其實跟醫療很像就是盡量有一些指引那麼來作為我們在專業執行上的一個參據但是也不可能完全"},{"start":2786.246,"end":2801.852,"text":"就是非常僵化的只有指引那這樣我們會漏失掉很多因為這專業的部分就是會按照這個個案當時候的情形要去做彈性的調整所以我們盡可能的把一些常見的樣態跟"},{"start":2804.613,"end":2819.424,"text":"經常性的工作這個內容把它變成一個指引的方式特別是在涉及人身安全風險的案件當中應該界定那個應注意的範圍和不同職務之間的責任分工應該有更具體的制度化的"},{"start":2820.304,"end":2845.249,"text":"我覺得這次事情結束了還是沒有解決社工的壓迫感然後呢不確定性所以像剛剛提到以這個個案來講呢我們就有收出養的這個辦法的修訂嘛那裡面也有一些收出養的指引那另外呢這個收出養的這個必要性評估格式我們也重新檢討這些其實都是在去協助界定這個專業應該要執行的"},{"start":2848.61,"end":2854.743,"text":"部長我還是建議真的要傾聽基層社工他們到底焦慮的是什麼這案子到底"},{"start":2855.725,"end":2882.4,"text":"對待帶來的衝擊是什麼我很同意因為不是說你講制度定好可是過去也是制度定好為什麼還是有這些要知道他們面對到的困境到底是什麼才能真正解決問題那最後就是20號保護跟搜出養跟安置跟寄養的有本質上都是高風險且高度不確定的專業服務在這樣的工作情境下我覺得制度是不是能夠足夠的做風險支持是必須正式的問題"},{"start":2883.44,"end":2908.837,"text":"所以專業責任保險並不是免責啦更不是替任何人卸責而是在這高風險的公共服務當中國家是不是能夠建立合理的風險分擔的機制所以想問部長目前在兒少保護跟收出養服務當中是不是有專業責任保險或類似的風險分擔的那個制度當第一線能源遭遇到植物遭遇到"},{"start":2909.717,"end":2933.146,"text":"民行事程序的時候有沒有法律諮詢 訴訟協助或者是專業鑑定的一個支持體制好 跟委員說明 目前當然我們對社工我們是有團保啦不過最主要是針對一些意外在服務過程當中對人身的意外傷害這個是有一個團保 這個是由政府在支持"},{"start":2933.686,"end":2962.585,"text":"那另外呢如果在社工司法裡面也有提到對這個法律諮詢支持的部分這個是也有那麼至於這個是屬於專業責任險那這個我們可能可不可以能夠願意就是說建立一套適用於耳哨保護跟收視場服務的專業責任保險制度並思考如何在個人機構跟政府之間建立更合理的責任的配置可以嗎我們來研究看看"},{"start":2963.807,"end":2968.444,"text":"包含這些從鑑定到責任的釐清等等最後我還是要再次強調"},{"start":2970.034,"end":2997.521,"text":"今天的討論核心始終是孩子制度的清楚與否會直接影響到孩子是否能夠被穩定的接觸因為我們的目標今天孩子來到這塊土地我們每一個大人都有責任讓他平安長大如果責任不清資訊斷裂 支持不足那麼風險就會在體系當中去累積而不是被解決所以我們需要的不是追究責任而是要讓制度真正有能力去承擔這個責任"},{"start":2999.281,"end":3014.953,"text":"所以再請部長能夠針對第一線也要希望你們能夠傾聽他的聲音去辦這樣的論壇然後我們要接住孩子我們要接住那個一直在幫我們處理社會問題的社工也要接住第一線社工"},{"start":3015.455,"end":3034.611,"text":"好 我們今天下午其實在部裡面有這樣的座談那有些社工團體也許沒有辦法出席的我們在後續看看再來分區考量這個再舉辦好 謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝林月琴、趙薇的發言也謝謝部長的答詢下一位我們請王育民委員發言"},{"start":3043.646,"end":3045.508,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長有請部長"},{"start":3052.793,"end":3055.514,"text":"部長長我們看到這幾年這個兒少堡的案件其實呈現非常暴增的情況如果看到111年他的通報量是83,101件到114年竟然暴增了6成增加了54,000人來到"},{"start":3076.914,"end":3097.302,"text":"136,592件暴增的這麼多但是實質進入到最後的我們的保護服務的人數他其實是在下降的到最終端的這一個實質的政府保護的人數是在下降的這當中的落差請問部長為什麼有這麼嚴重的一個落差"},{"start":3100.257,"end":3117.983,"text":"跟各位人說明這前面的這個是通報來源是整個啦但是後面的會再去分流啦有些是催加有些是所以我要先問的是前面暴增六成到底是為什麼你們沒有去分析原因"},{"start":3118.903,"end":3128.69,"text":"因為我們最近一直在宣導鼓勵發掘這些可能的問題像守門人一樣就盡量的通報所以是宣導有成不要讓他漏接啦那這些案子都是真實發生的案件嗎"},{"start":3135.575,"end":3158.303,"text":"那如果暴增六成這個是大家敏感度增加然後通報量上升那我就要問我們的服務的工作人員保護的人有沒有增加六成跟委員說明我們都會去把它做分析所以後端有些是保護個案沒錯但是有些是福利服務"},{"start":3158.843,"end":3180.508,"text":"像福利服務所以你整體的人員你前面報正六成你後面整體的不管是福利服務或者是後面的安置保護你所有的人員的成長有到六成嗎人員的你說這個服務人員當然是沒有吧整體是吧對整體的有增加到六成嗎我們這幾年是從一百"},{"start":3183.369,"end":3197.079,"text":"103到113大概增加了大概是五成啦從13000名社工到19000名社工啦然後去年也有再增加大概4000名左右好 這個就是我要告訴你的"},{"start":3197.819,"end":3216.649,"text":"按量暴增但是我們的人員其實並沒有等同比例的增加另外一個更糟糕的情況是這個整個離職率啊他還是維持在一個這張圖表你看一下你的禁用率你的社安網其實禁用率"},{"start":3217.133,"end":3245.494,"text":"八成其實平均有的縣是根本不到八成然後離職率呢還是維持在13.9也就是說你的人力根本跟不上你現在案件增加的速度這個是為什麼第一線的社工他們現在壓力暴增壓力倍增那有些人他其實很願意在這個領域奉獻昨天這個社工他們的抗議裡面有一個資深的社工他是"},{"start":3246.535,"end":3264.707,"text":"帶著錯氣的聲音在講他的心路歷程我不知道部長今天看到這個新聞嗎看了讓人家覺得很心酸他很熱愛這份工作他也願意工作但是他們現在普遍感到惶恐的是就是如果做不好的話他其實是被判刑的"},{"start":3265.148,"end":3282.783,"text":"他會被上銬的就是說他從一個社工的助人者他可能會變成是整個最後要背鍋的那一個人所以為什麼有萬名的社工連署昨天有1600名社工走到行政院發出怒吼"},{"start":3283.644,"end":3311.711,"text":"因為他覺得他就承擔了所有的社會安全網好或不好孩子的生命有沒有保障他要站上那個保證人的位置對他們來講何其沉重非常非常的沉重啊所以這樣的一個怒吼不是沒有原因案量這麼大然後要背負的責任這麼多不是他認真做就好他還要擔心他認真做的過程這個家庭不能有任何的散失跟風險啊"},{"start":3312.691,"end":3340.447,"text":"只要是他接觸過的會不會說這是你接觸過的你要負這個保證人的責任在這樣的情況底下他能安心工作嗎我覺得昨天這些社工他們上街他要的是一個安心的環境是一個無害的環境是一個不要被無止境被救責的這樣一個環境但是我們國家有提供給他嗎以他們昨天的憤怒跟怒吼他覺得國家沒有保護他"},{"start":3341.327,"end":3362.037,"text":"那這個就是整個政府要去思考的問題啊所以在昨天他們談的部分你看到這些離子率事實上他們昨天的訴求我認為是政府應該要去正視的就是特別是像兒保的社工他們風險更大我想在座各位這個彩虹市長大家都知道兒保社工的這個異動"},{"start":3363.938,"end":3385.314,"text":"現在是很怕補不到人因為那個扛的壓力因為這些家庭它就是高風險的家庭你真的很難保你去仿視了這個家庭之後下一秒鐘接下來的一天孩子可能突然家長的憤怒或什麼或一時想不開把孩子帶去哪裡了"},{"start":3386.348,"end":3407.628,"text":"那如果是現在司法體系對於社工的職業的不了解他動輒用這麼重的把他放到一個保證人的位置的話我覺得這一波你會讓很多就是有心想要從事社工的人他可能會卻步或者是灰心那這個對我們整體的社會安全網跟保護體系其實是一個傷害"},{"start":3408.809,"end":3425.02,"text":"我不知道你們有沒有警覺到這件事情這件事情沒有好好的處理你沒有辦法給社工一個安心的話我覺得對他們來講就是他雖然很想投入助人工作但是助人工作如果付出的代價如此之沉重我覺得有些人真的是會打退場鍋所以我覺得我們應該要來解決這樣的一個問題"},{"start":3429.583,"end":3447.356,"text":"昨天這個他們在訴求裡面我們來看接下來這一張就是國家重建一個合理的制度是他們一個很重要的訴求就是怎麼樣去盤點還有界定保證人地位不會讓社工去踩雷"},{"start":3448.337,"end":3467.98,"text":"這件事情是他們昨天一個非常明確的訴求因為像兒保社工我覺得他會遇到翠家的社工也很容易遇到啊因為他們的家庭結構本身就非常的不穩定嘛那你今天這個如果是司法單位他們可以是這樣子就說欸你是保證人所以"},{"start":3468.581,"end":3495.595,"text":"就是你要負最終責任那這件事情我們應該是要好好的討論不要讓社工就是這樣子惶惶不安那部長你打算怎麼做昨天這個訴求其實非常的清楚你打算怎麼做這四點我們都很認同應該要來處理所以第一個法律責任的釐清我們明天已經在部裡面邀集相關的明天嗎對 明天下午那有要司法單位嗎"},{"start":3496.375,"end":3513.009,"text":"有一起大家都幾個重要的那個背景不同的背景法律司法還有社工專家一起來那麼就這個法律見解的部分你們要結成員大概有多少人我們是不是詳細的再提供給您參考我希望這個規模"},{"start":3517.832,"end":3532.436,"text":"範圍其實是要多的另外就是在比例上面是要恰當的而且這一些相關的就是職業工會社工的職業工會就是他們是第一線的還有社工專協團體的話是今天下午我們會先討論聽聽他們的意見他們的訴求然後明天才是這個法律專門針對法律的討論那那個法務部有派代表嗎"},{"start":3545,"end":3550.769,"text":"有邀法務部嗎有邀請因為法務部很關鍵啦 檢察官就是其實邀請法務部嗎有邀請嗎 來 法務部請對"},{"start":3557.338,"end":3578.38,"text":"要出席法務部我主張就是要出席因為司法體系這邊還有司法院法務部跟司法院都應該要出席我們來確認一下那個出席對今天有出席的法務部就是請你們要派員出席因為這件事情我覺得每一個社工他現在心裡的惶恐就是下一個會不會是我"},{"start":3579.301,"end":3592.728,"text":"下一個會不會是我所以才會那麼多人站出來那我覺得這件事情真的是政府的責任我覺得就是要讓社工非常的安心一個助人工作者還要每天提心吊膽"},{"start":3594.161,"end":3608.206,"text":"真的我覺得這個我們對不起這一些基層的社工安心的職業環境這個是我們一定要去做我的看法跟您是完全一樣的那個KPI我們把它廢掉了已經廢掉了嗎已經廢掉不再用再通報率什麼時候廢掉在社安網2.0的計畫我們就把這個KPI拿掉有拿掉了這個也是被詬病的"},{"start":3617.95,"end":3635.24,"text":"因為這些家庭的問題就是它是會反覆出現的然後你們之前是用再通報率然後來作為是你做得好不好的一個指標結果造成實務上有些人就把案子hold在手上他不敢再開新案了"},{"start":3636.661,"end":3656.102,"text":"這樣子我的KPI可能會好看一點這個都是本末倒置的做法第三個 合理的按量這個是我覺得你們應該要認真去思考的一個好的工作環境 合理的按量你才可以讓這些保護性的社工久任要不然風險又高 按量又大"},{"start":3657.023,"end":3686.223,"text":"然後又有司法的風險這個雙重多重的壓力底下這個是留不住人的最後強化網絡的合作這一次我們也看到就是司法體系對於社工的職業環境有沒有那麼的理解這是這一次很多社工他們提出來的他覺得是不夠理解所以你明天這個會議是一個好的開始但是我覺得你要建立一個是讓司法人員對於整個社工的職業環境跟體系跟他的職長有一個清晰的脈絡跟了解"},{"start":3687.123,"end":3715.016,"text":"如果沒有這樣的了解他可能會誤判或他以為的正義可能跟實際上的情況他可能是兩件事情他不夠理解做出的判斷所以這個強化網絡合作我希望你們也可以做因為我也很清楚過去也是在醫療上也有類似的情形所以辦了很多的依法論壇讓這個醫界跟法界這邊能夠有對話的機會那我想這個社工的工作性質其實跟醫事人員很類似"},{"start":3716.156,"end":3742.628,"text":"也是助人的所以未來我們也來強化這個對話好那我希望這四點你們都要做我們要還給社工一個安心的職業環境最後一個我要問的是有關於兒少全法的修法昨天是這個今天教育部有代表來對不對我們請那個副署長一起上來昨天是那個全教總他們發了一個新聞稿他們"},{"start":3743.348,"end":3763.366,"text":"也一樣感到焦慮喔那他們的焦慮是對於兒少全法72條的修正他們覺得有些地方是模糊的會造成跟他的管教權在學校管教權產生一些的衝突那這個部分我不知道之前在修法的時候那個教育部有沒有參與72條修法的時候"},{"start":3765.99,"end":3773.291,"text":"有沒有邀請教育部出席你們沒有表達你們沒有去蒐集基層教師的意見然後去反映相關的意見跟看法"},{"start":3775.28,"end":3799.626,"text":"在比較早一個階段的時候其實我們有被邀請但是後來的這一個版本的後半階段我們好像比較沒有參與不過因為現在是公告他有一個月的期間那教育部這邊會收集地方政府還有我們相關教師團體這樣團體的意見我們會跟就是收集意見然後我們也會提供給衛福部"},{"start":3801.047,"end":3815.886,"text":"因為其實教育部你們有關於教師的管教權你在教師法的32條教育基本法第8條第15條你還有一個輔導管教辦法事實上你本身就有制定一套針對學生的管教辦法"},{"start":3816.627,"end":3839.908,"text":"那你們現在應該要去釐清啊就是說對於學校老師在教學現場他是要優先去適用你這一個管教辦法還是說兒少全法他是更上位他這邊會去凌駕到你的這一個學校的相關辦法他們現在到底應該適用哪一個因為你在你的學校的輔導管教辦法相對是比較明確而且比較細的"},{"start":3841.649,"end":3864.716,"text":"那現在為什麼這個全教總他們覺得這個新修訂的兒校全法讓他們會無所適從就是文字有一些模糊的空間那這個要怎麼處理我們會收集意見因為4月21號公告我們昨天大概署內相關的主事還有我們也會發文給地方政府"},{"start":3865.356,"end":3893.915,"text":"昨天剛好有一個跟地方政府的會議我們也都把這個訊息給地方政府請他們就是要特別關注這些的議題那我們會會長收集之後我們再跟衛福部一起討論好我們兒少權法去給這個兒少就是更好的權益保障這個是支持的但是大家要注意在修法的過程當中譬如說像教師的部分跟他的管教權如果有所漢格或者是有衝突的地方"},{"start":3894.295,"end":3898.857,"text":"那我覺得這是主管機關的責任一樣你要給教師一個安心的這個教育現場管教的環境啊而不是讓他覺得我如果萬一我們在兒童全盤有一些太模糊的他會擔心也是動輒得救的問題因為這當當中有提到就是比較細微的像偏心忽視他就很擔心一個老師"},{"start":3915.405,"end":3937.495,"text":"班上這個幾十個學生偏心如果也要算的話那個感受那個太模糊了所以我希望這個部分你們也要尊重就是在教育現場這些老師的意見然後做出一個合理的這個修法的調整好不好好我們會跟衛福部一起討論好謝謝好謝謝王玉明委員發言接下來請陳金輝委員發言"},{"start":3946.174,"end":3949.525,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員有請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":3954.166,"end":3979.839,"text":"陳委員長部長剛有兩個委員已經關心了因為大家昨天看到社工上街頭的新聞其實都很難過啊他們拿著牌子說我們接住受害者那誰來接住我們現在法院的判決是把他們當作所有小孩的保證人但剛有講啊人力不足抄案抄量在接案這邊要請部長表示您的意見您覺得他們是每一個小朋友的保證人嗎"},{"start":3982.203,"end":4008.477,"text":"這個我要藉這個機會也提到我們一定做所有社工的後盾這個是我們主管機關的態度那當然在法律的見解上那麼法院有這樣的見解所以我們才會在明天下午召開邀請法界可能法界有不同的這個見解啦並不是這個定於一尊所以我們明天就邀請了各方"},{"start":4009.117,"end":4030.105,"text":"大家現在也蠻想聽一下您初步的看法因為他們這樣子遇到這樣子的事件熱情被燃燒殆盡有很多人是萌生要離職的這樣子想法我們也不希望這個社會的缺口越來越大所以我們想知道說法院說保姆因為容易情緒化他這樣子說對保姆合理嗎您覺得"},{"start":4032.229,"end":4051.099,"text":"您說的是他說保姆容易情緒化所以他認為社工本來就應該要多加監督您覺得他這樣子講對保姆還有對社工合理嗎您認同嗎我是建議我們比較不去做這個個案的"},{"start":4052.06,"end":4073.281,"text":"這批評啊那必須是整個這個從這個法律架構上然後他的這個責任釐清上面我們來切入所以我們才會有今天下午先跟社工座談聽聽他們第一線的聲音然後明天呢才邀請法界那麼跟也有一些學者大家來對話"},{"start":4074.742,"end":4098.509,"text":"這些社工的要求真的不多他的意思是說他希望主管機關也就是您衛福部可以清楚的定義他們的工作範圍他們只想知道他們的工作範圍是在什麼程度以內嘛那這個東西不是只給我看啊你也是要給全國的社工看給全國的保姆看你覺得你多久以內可以定出這個工作的範圍"},{"start":4100.049,"end":4116.295,"text":"多久以内可以给我报告工作的范围这个我们一直有一些工作的办法或者是指引其实一直都有像邹初仰也有一定的这个办法跟指引在这里所以到底什么叫做"},{"start":4117.435,"end":4145.592,"text":"就像我們醫療您也是醫師是最清楚的過去因為這個醫療糾紛的時候困擾我們非常非常久所以最後才有去修訂這個醫療法82條那沒關係我想知道說你下午座談明天跟法界那你多久以內會有一個初步的文書文件讓他們可以知道說他們的工作範圍程度在哪裡嗎其實他們的要求昨天這樣訴求是這樣子嗎"},{"start":4147.134,"end":4161.875,"text":"我們今天下午會再更清楚的了解他們的訴求主要著眼在哪裡那麼會再透過明天的這個法律諮詢那麼來把它釐清看看未來到底我們應該要做什麼樣的"},{"start":4163.396,"end":4175.603,"text":"規範也好或解釋也好還是要修法也好那麼才能夠確保這些社工在執行他的業務的時候可以沒有後顧之憂那我再跟您索取這個你們的會議紀錄你們討論哪些項目"},{"start":4179.405,"end":4202.143,"text":"這個呢因為最近網路上很多人在講說馬鈴薯只要把發芽的地方切掉就可以吃甚至也有人說如果發芽吃起來非常的苦所以你絕對不會再繼續吃所以就很多家長很緊張嘛因為馬鈴薯是一個學校營養午餐很常用到的東西啊然後小朋友也很喜歡吃薯條那我就上網去查說"},{"start":4203.604,"end":4224.664,"text":"你看有沒有一些文章可以知道我們比如說這篇就在講說馬鈴薯發芽有毒聽說只要切掉其他部位還是可以吃是真的嗎那這篇文章就寫說不行因為呢高溫加熱也無法去除毒性你覺得這篇有沒有公信力寫的是不是對的這些衛教知識"},{"start":4226.206,"end":4243.196,"text":"應該是這麼說 這有幾塊啦第一個這個茄鹼就是所謂的馬鈴薯的龍葵鹼它是對熱穩定這個毒素是對熱穩定沒有錯那第二個呢到底是不是用牙來判斷這個龍葵鹼的含量多寡"},{"start":4243.536,"end":4254.64,"text":"那這個是沒有絕對的關聯性所以我們才會在邊境的部分我們就會去做抽驗只要龍奎鹼超過200BPM你只要告訴我發芽的是不是不可以吃就好了"},{"start":4260.482,"end":4275.495,"text":"因為這篇文章只是在討論這個發芽的可不可以吃對可不可以吃你只要告訴我這個如果現在這個按照這個我們農業部在邊境的檢驗是5個mm它的條件是5個mm這個芽這5個mm那就我們的條件是檢驗就是龍葵檢如果驗出200ppm"},{"start":4285.022,"end":4300.466,"text":"這個就不可以所以整批就會被退運所以你的意思是說農業署以發芽你是以PPM標準的話是要用檢驗來看那我直接告訴你當然要跟委員說明的是說在他這個馬鈴薯發芽到"},{"start":4304.656,"end":4321.665,"text":"它的表面隨著龍奎鹼它裡面在發芽的過程會釋出龍奎鹼當它的龍奎鹼的濃度越高的時候那它表面上的顏色也會變化好 我先跟你說這篇文章是你們自己寫的衛生福利部食品藥物管理署2016年發布的"},{"start":4324.806,"end":4348.965,"text":"為了讓全國的關心小朋友的家長可以follow所以當時你們寫了一篇衛教文2016年跟大家講說不行喔不能吃發芽的馬鈴薯是不可以吃的網路上有人說挖掉就可以吃不對所以你們最後是建議大家不要買太多以免它發芽然後要攝取新鮮的最後一句是"},{"start":4349.925,"end":4375.883,"text":"馬鈴薯一旦發芽就不該食用即使切除芽眼或加熱仍然會有茄鹼那你現在是要怎樣你現在是要下架你的文章沒有沒有沒有沒有衝突啦我剛剛提到的是說從科學上來講我們不會用芽眼跟龍葵鹼的濃度去直接做對應這個不會但是對民眾的衛教來講你無法去區分嘛所以你對民眾的衛教就是說簡單的說那當然就是說你這個"},{"start":4380.065,"end":4406.273,"text":"這個不會因為只是一個牙眼切除龍盔茧就沒有不會這個是對的所以就不要吃嘛對不對我們現在就是要我們現在以正式聽因為很多人在網路上寫說切掉可以吃好這邊呢剛你有講到農業化就說不合格就整顆棄置那這邊我們也想問啊因為你早上好像有回答記者說你們現在抽菸就是2%嘛"},{"start":4407.373,"end":4432.316,"text":"2到10%抽驗就是2到10%那你如果驗到一顆你會怎麼做整批退運或銷毀整批整箱還是整批因為他比如說這一批是這個貨櫃抽出來有那這個貨櫃就是整個退運或銷毀那因為卓院長昨天有說他要一顆一顆逐顆逐顆看你可以幫他解釋一下他這個要怎麼進行嗎"},{"start":4433.957,"end":4460.779,"text":"我們的抽菸不會一顆一顆驗沒有在一顆一顆驗都是我們抽菸的方式所以卓院長他可能理解錯誤理解錯誤你們的抽菸方式他應該不是指我們的抽菸因為我們抽菸從來不會是一顆一顆驗他應該指的是農業部因為這個外觀的檢視包含有沒有腐敗有沒有發芽那個是用外觀檢視然後有沒有發霉對所以他剛剛講的"},{"start":4462.02,"end":4476.018,"text":"不是他對不起農業部說的不合格的就整科氣質他說錯了你講的是整批對吧不是你剛講的不一樣我們是抽驗檢驗超過那個龍葵檢超過200ppm我們是整批"},{"start":4479.562,"end":4508.18,"text":"那但是那個有發芽的它是單顆嘛不會一顆發芽其他也一定都發芽因為它在噴灑那個易芽劑的時候有時候會不均勻嘛所以它是對那個發芽的那一顆丟棄以前嘛以前我們是整個看到發芽就不要了因為我們會覺得它生長在同樣的一個環境所以這一顆有其他顆可能也有然後我們2018年其實都是蠻嚴格的今年"},{"start":4509.401,"end":4511.282,"text":"不知道為什麼ART談判完變成這樣子這個是你們跟農業部一起發布的喔你們在講說不合格及氣質如果有發芽腐爛發霉該顆馬鈴薯必須嚴禁進入加工產線所以你現在先記得喔"},{"start":4528.206,"end":4532.57,"text":"他不能進入加工產線絕對不會進入加工產線ok好那我們來看一下我們來看一下這邊我去翻了一下2025年這個台美就是美國對外貿易屏障的這個報告他裡面就寫到啦"},{"start":4544.582,"end":4562.764,"text":"他說抱怨說台灣對發芽有限制導致常常整批貨被退美國當時就在這個報告裡面寫說發芽不會構成食安的風險正在跟台灣雙邊協商解決這跟你的衛教文章不太一樣那2026年呢2月他就發表了這個"},{"start":4563.985,"end":4578.27,"text":"他寫得很清楚你看他的最後一段他說如果馬鈴薯有發芽腐爛發霉入境但是入境以後在加工設施內完成分檢還有處置所以他最後寫一個at a processing facility"},{"start":4582.552,"end":4600.906,"text":"但是我剛剛給你看的你們的海報寫的是絕對不會進入加工產線我比較了美國跟我們自己發布會覺得很荒唐一個說不會進入加工產線一個是美國說我們跟台灣講好了他們會去一個processing facility"},{"start":4601.707,"end":4607.492,"text":"大家看會覺得很奇怪啊我們平常去機場大費周章還要拿一個紅卡還要拿綠卡還要被檢查背包看到背包裡面有在機場的邊境就直接把你丟掉了然後現在是發現有發芽這些還要被送去一個加工廠在裡面所以他就入境了不是嗎"},{"start":4622.564,"end":4646.849,"text":"跟委員說明我們所有的這個檢驗的比例還有檢驗的標準還有後面的處置退運整批的這種做法其實都是沒有變差別的只是在於說如果是外觀上面那麼出現有這個發芽的情形的時候那麼是拉到一個指定的區域不是直接進加工廠"},{"start":4647.729,"end":4661.302,"text":"是拉到指定的區域去魚蟻剔除掉把那一顆丟掉那麼在其他的國家也是這樣做不會整批啦這個日本也是這樣做因為我們依賴的是科學的檢驗標準"},{"start":4662.603,"end":4687.914,"text":"那麼不能夠用一顆代表全部你說你們沒有變然後現在又在解釋你各種的差別你又在解釋你各種的差別我現在已經很明確的把2025年2026年都拿給你看了美國都已經說你有差了你還說你自己沒有差而且它這邊就寫Processing Facility你硬要說它是一個指定的地方它就是加工廠啊"},{"start":4689.495,"end":4717.824,"text":"我跟委員描述的是目前農業部的做法當然詳細的因為今天農業部沒有來這個是農業部我們處理的只是檢驗抽驗我們是抽驗那麼外觀的檢視這個叫外觀的檢視這個是農業部在做的檢疫包含有沒有病蟲害這個他們要看的當然他們今天沒有來但是據他們跟我的描述他是會到一個指定的地方去做剔除不是直接進入到加工廠"},{"start":4719.444,"end":4742.883,"text":"我給你看你自己寫的東西我們2月簽了ART1月的時候才發現說農業部改了兩份文件農業部這邊改了美國加工用馬鈴薯輸入檢疫條件你仔細看運抵加工廠後高批加工用馬鈴薯經過選別附帶之牙體長度超過5毫米或腐爛發霉"},{"start":4747.486,"end":4769.729,"text":"超過標準予以區隔且不得進行加工予以棄置你剛剛一直說去指定的環境農業部的文件1月21號就已經發表說這些在入境的時候發現有發芽他是把他們運到加工廠他寫這麼清楚你還要跟我說指定的地點"},{"start":4772.281,"end":4792.978,"text":"這個我想因為今天農業部也沒有來那這個不需要經過我們這個會嫌的所以如果詳細的部分委員可以再請教農業部因為是食安嘛所以這邊還是要請教您嘛因為這個是您跟農業部共同發表的我們的檢驗所有的程序標準跟處置的方式不變"},{"start":4795.413,"end":4821.573,"text":"那我問你我問你進入加工廠好他處理難道他有發芽或是有驗出超過標準的不會跟正常一般馬鈴薯會有污染嗎這不是大家最擔心的嗎不會嗎我跟委員說明啦這個當然是農業部的這個process啦那但是據我的瞭解啦他只是暫於他不是直接進到加工他是暫於讓他出關"},{"start":4822.901,"end":4833.997,"text":"然後到一個地方去剔除然後我們就會加驗所以他就入境啊但是如果加驗有問題的話呢我們就我們會驗他的龍盔檢嘛一有問題也是整批退啦那我問你最後一個問題啦這邊有寫"},{"start":4837.523,"end":4858.186,"text":"ART寫得很硬喔他說之後如果有任何想要修改這個檢疫的標準必須要雙方都合意共同同意之下那你怎麼 你怎麼改因為你以前遇到混裝肉的問題你就說我要開始逐批查驗那你以後怎麼改你以後遇到食安的問題他都已經寫這麼硬了你要怎麼調整"},{"start":4859.697,"end":4888.028,"text":"所有的這個檢疫的方式都是大家互相在兩邊溝通的而且都是基於科學證據跟國際標準來做所以我們一向過去的做法也都是如此所以你的意思是說你的意思是說未來如果你遇到像之前您在查混裝肉的這個事件的時候你開始改成主批查驗你之後也會跟美國溝通說我們可不可以得到一個雙方的共識我可能也要開始查你會這樣子做"},{"start":4888.968,"end":4908.755,"text":"我們當然有如何檢疫的決定權但是這些決定權呢也必須跟世界的標準國際要去接軌不然人家也這樣對我們的話那我們的農產品就無法出就是每個國家都希望在共同的國際標準下這個才是國際貿易的本質"},{"start":4910.316,"end":4926.327,"text":"因為之前是您的前一位部長他在有一次跟談判辦公室的人一起來當時我們衛黃委員會很關心肉品啊等等他說他是沒有參與到這個談判所以但是行政是一體的我想知道你是什麼時候才知道馬鈴薯會進來的發芽馬鈴薯會進來馬鈴薯的那個規範是在今年二月發布的對那談判的過程你有參與嗎"},{"start":4936.996,"end":4955.308,"text":"談判的過程我們主要是食藥署參與但是我都會他們都會跟我報告那你什麼時候就知道了因為美國的文件是寫2025年就開始談了就是說我當部長才知道因為我之前是健保署署長我不會去接觸到食品安全的問題"},{"start":4956.018,"end":4969.593,"text":"好我們希望未來的發展不管如何因為每天都有不同的答詢出來的答案都不太一樣那你還是之後可以信守你的承諾之後如果你需要主批查驗的時候你就大膽的說你要主批查驗我們檢驗我們過去都有一個標準"},{"start":4972.136,"end":4997.725,"text":"就是2到10%的抽驗有問題的時候提高到20到50%的抽驗再有問題的時候就逐批我們的過去都是這樣然後你要從逐批要降級我們有一定的標準所以這些標準都是分開的因為他已經說他已經把這些標準要更改的時候明訂進來以前是沒有這一段英文的以前沒有這一段英文所以我們現在才要在這邊跟你釐清嘛好不好"},{"start":4999.005,"end":5020.361,"text":"那檢驗的程序剛剛跟委員一直在強調我們在檢驗的程序抽驗的標準那麼以及後面的處置有問題的時候的處置都沒有改變沒關係等一下還有其他委員會問你謝謝主席謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝陳金威委員發言接下來請邱惠如委員發言"},{"start":5029.423,"end":5036.696,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位政府部門的同仁大家好那我們有請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":5038.359,"end":5064.185,"text":"好 部長部長好就委員好是 我今天想跟你交流呢心理健康支持方案的成效還有適用的年齡層好那我想呢我們大家應該都略有掌握其實自殺呢是我們國人的十大死因之一那特別我關心的是青少年已經跳出十大了已經跳出十大了那當然這個但是他應該還是"},{"start":5065.845,"end":5092.197,"text":"那部長有掌握現在是第幾嗎11 12啦11 12就在邊緣嘛所以一稍微有疏忽可能又會再跌回十大的範圍之內還是要很努力是是那我關心的是這個青少年自殺的問題那青少年我們可以看到這張圖青少年是紅色的他的年齡區間大概就是紅色這個曲線來表示那他似乎有逐年提升的一個問題"},{"start":5093.618,"end":5115.24,"text":"我們當然知道衛福部對於自殺的防治對於國人心理健康的提升在過去幾年又做了一個努力那在112年的時候有提供一個叫年輕族群的心理健康支持方案那適用的年齡層是15到30歲那也許應該是效果不錯吧所以年齡有再往上拓展到45歲嘛"},{"start":5117.122,"end":5126.229,"text":"那現在我想要請教部長就是說那這兩個方案目前執行的情形如何那對於自殺的房子你們是不是有掌握到成效的評估"},{"start":5129.69,"end":5154.017,"text":"這個不直接只是針對這個自殺因為現在這個特別是在年輕族群也有一些情緒困擾那需要有一些因為過去這個難免這個就醫會覺得有標籤化的問題所以我們才會導入這個一開始是15到30歲一年三次的"},{"start":5154.837,"end":5180.595,"text":"這個免費的諮商因為推出之後反應很不錯啦因為從這中間也會有一些轉介發現到一些個案他就會轉介到真正需要的醫療服務或者是說他還是回到這個學校的輔導系統等等這些會有一些資源的連結因為就會有反應到說那其實往後年輕世代那麼工作壓力家庭這個"},{"start":5183.096,"end":5198.221,"text":"原因也都是在這個年齡群工作跟經濟家庭所以才會往後那麼延後到45歲大概是這樣那以自殺率來看的話那麼以去年我們有"},{"start":5199.241,"end":5220.569,"text":"其實在這個Covid之後這個委員您也都是這方面的專業很清楚Covid之後整個那個Mental Health的問題受到很大的衝擊所以各國那個自殺率都有一些往上不過我們看起來也是差不多跟國際的趨勢一樣稍微有往上不過去年我們又把它下降了"},{"start":5220.629,"end":5238.704,"text":"特別關心的是就是青少年因為青少年他們就是有早熟的趨勢然後也有一些情感的困擾那現在網路資訊也很爆炸那可能也會有一些詐騙被詐騙然後霸凌等等的一個現象所以我想這些的社會因素有可能都會衝擊到他們的心理健康"},{"start":5239.284,"end":5260.08,"text":"所以我覺得提供給他們一些心理諮詢我覺得是一個很可行的方向那衛福部現在也在努力那現在有個問題就是說我們來看一下心理師法嘛心理師法有提到說心理師如果在執行業務的時候要取得當事人或法代的同意那我解讀這一條我自己從法律的角度來解讀我是覺得說因為這邊提到說當事人或法代嘛那我就"},{"start":5260.62,"end":5278.329,"text":"解讀上我會區分為兩個族群一個族群就成年人成年人當然就當事人同意那如果是未成年當然就是法代同意但是這裡就所以部長應該認同這個法律上的解讀嘛那所以這裡現在有一個問題就是說你如果青少年他要使用這些諮詢的時候他前提要法代同意"},{"start":5278.849,"end":5300.96,"text":"那因為他遭遇這些問題他有時候不敢告訴家人那不敢告訴家人如何取得法帶的同意這第一件事然後再來就是說好不容易告訴家人那部長您剛剛有提到嘛就是汙名化的問題家長他也許會覺得說我的小孩去接受行李諮商那不想讓他們去那沒有法帶同意之下小孩子即使想去也去不了那所幸這裡有一個我們還蠻"},{"start":5301.88,"end":5328.248,"text":"高興看到的一個解套方式就是在校園內有學生輔導法學生輔導法就心理師在校園內如果諮詢這些心理諮商的時候在符合三個要件的情況之下就可以把心理衛生心理師法第19條的法帶同意的限制做一個解套那要建議就是學生本人同意要建議就是學校有一個個案的會議來做評估如果學生有需求第三個就是考量到這個學生的最佳利益"},{"start":5328.968,"end":5345.18,"text":"那現在問題就是說當然就可以不需要法代的同意但問題就是說因為這個是學生輔導法它發生在校園內有就學的學生那如果今天是在校園外沒有就學的好像就要回歸到心理司法第19條還是要法代的同意那我們現在就覺得說那這個對於為就學的"},{"start":5348.702,"end":5366.516,"text":"15到18歲的這個未成年人他們常常是有來自於今天我們的主題嘛脆弱家庭然後沒有辦法繼續就學中輟生可能他們就沒有在適用學生輔導法而還是要受到心理司法第19條的限制那不知道校部長您怎麼看"},{"start":5368.336,"end":5381.682,"text":"對 這個其實委員點出了一個其實跟我們兒少權法也很有相關聯性就是在CRC裡面特別有提到尊重這個兒少的意見那這裡面就有這個所謂的"},{"start":5382.762,"end":5396.818,"text":"知情權被知情權跟選擇權的問題那在過去我們在醫療的過程你也很清楚都是對未成年來講都是需要有這個監護人或法定代理人他的這個同意才能夠執行"},{"start":5398.019,"end":5416.394,"text":"但是如何在什麼情況之下比如說需要衡量到這個兒少本身的心智成熟在什麼樣的情形之下那麼可以不需要跳出這個法定代理或監護人的同意權的這件事情"},{"start":5417.214,"end":5445.593,"text":"那麼我覺得可以討論至於做剛剛提到我們的心理諮商的部分我們的新建師有在研議如何去讓剛剛說的15歲到45歲國家所推出的心理諮商的服務讓有需要的人像剛剛您提到的學生輔導法一樣有一個可以"},{"start":5447.454,"end":5460.28,"text":"免除的這個那我想請教一件事因為你們的方案推展的不錯嘛那我們也希望加惠更多人嘛那現在到底這些15到18歲的未成年人他們使用這個方案到底需不需要法代同意"},{"start":5463.695,"end":5490.313,"text":"因為部長有掌握嗎因為我們剛剛是解讀操作法律操作了半天那現在就是實務上你有掌握使用這個方案有需要有法帶限制這個我要確切了解一下確切了解一下到底是不是都要那麼因為過去是如果是看這個精神醫師的話是一定要就是精神門診的話是一定要"},{"start":5494.496,"end":5521.453,"text":"諮商的部分比較沒有那麼那麼serious那麼嚴可是這個這個心理師法看起來就心理師諮詢諮商看起來就是我們剛剛操作半天嘛好那我現在跟部長講因為我也對這個問題非常關心所以我有特別上網去查了你們這個心理方案然後還有蠻詳細的QA那QA呢其中有一題就是15歲以上未成年人如果要使用本方案是否需要家長的同意書因為我想"},{"start":5522.253,"end":5548.058,"text":"那個正義點是在這邊嘛那你們的回答有兩個方向原則上建議高知法帶那建議聽起來就是不以法帶的同意為必要那第二個要件呢當然就援引到心理司法那心理司法當然我們操作半天覺得未成年人應該要得到法帶的同意才能夠接受心理諮商可是這裡又提到說並不以取得法帶的同意為唯一的要件那看起來你們這個方案是比較放寬的"},{"start":5549.938,"end":5571.354,"text":"相較於心理司法是比較放寬部長您剛剛不是說要了解一下嗎那這裡答案其實就已經出現了好那我想要點出一個問題說當然放寬我沒有反對而且甚至是支持的因為青少年他們不敢告訴家人所以他會變成說他沒有資源那沒有資源會不會讓心理的憂鬱程度又更加雪上加霜所以及時的介入很重要但是現在重點來了就是"},{"start":5573.035,"end":5593.709,"text":"實務上就是在使用這個方案實際操作的這些心理師他們有他們的認知也是要有法代的同意這些青少年才能夠使用這個資源可是你們的QA其實其實是放寬了那所以部長這個問題是教育宣導不夠嗎因為看起來QA其實是放寬了可是第一線操作心理師並沒有掌握"},{"start":5594.289,"end":5609.935,"text":"那是教育宣導不夠嗎那如果是你們有放寬教育宣導不夠導致那些心理師他們覺得還是要有法代統一才能夠提供服務反而去阻缺了青少年使用你們這個利益良善的方案所以這邊部長是不是可以給我們示意一下"},{"start":5610.623,"end":5628.571,"text":"好這個我們再強化去宣導啦那當然這個您對這個法律很精確啦所以當然在心理師法還有這些文字存在所以這中間在推動這個方案上我會找這個新建師來討論一下如何"},{"start":5631.312,"end":5649.269,"text":"也要保障這個心理師的權益然後讓這個需要者這些青少年也能夠容易取得這樣的服務所以部長我這邊就是有兩個問題想要請你來做一些協助就是說因為我們剛剛有提到說你們的Q&A看起來是放寬"},{"start":5650.59,"end":5679.293,"text":"並不以法帶的同意為必要可是實務上有一些心理師確認為要那有沒有可能提供給我們一些資料就是到底現在目前目前實務的操作上到底是有多少比例是有經過法帶然後有多少比例是沒有經過法帶那也許我們掌握這個資訊可以進步來思考如何來協助這個資源的廣大普及到青少年那第二個問題就是說我想這個方案我們真的非常的支持那"},{"start":5679.753,"end":5703.86,"text":"因為你的年齡層往上提升到30歲提升到45歲那有沒有可能往下扎根我們再往下扎根加會到這個12歲到15歲的族群因為就如同我剛剛說的現在真的很早熟然後情感因素有些其實國中就有一些情感因素了那可不可以擴大地適用到這12歲的族群部長是不是有這個可能性我們來研究看看研究看看"},{"start":5704.54,"end":5728.279,"text":"不知道是不是可以一個月內給我們這些可行性的評估報告好那這個謝謝部長那我們就一起來為青少年的心理健康來一起努力謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝我們的邱惠如委員那待會在楊耀委員宣達那個宣達完畢後我們就休息十分鐘接下來我們請邱政軍委員發言"},{"start":5735.394,"end":5738.021,"text":"主席好 我們請石部長有請石部長"},{"start":5741.394,"end":5764.502,"text":"好 邱委員好部長好部長 我們談判代表鄭麗君2月12日跟美國簽下這個ART一直以來我們一再要求不可以拿我們的食安來當作交換的籌碼但是現在看起來經貿辦談回來的內容跟當初行政院開記者會喝奶茶的那個傳達給大家的那種感覺差很多就拿馬鈴薯來講"},{"start":5766.923,"end":5791.299,"text":"2026年1月21號農業部發布預告準備要放寬美國馬鈴薯那2026年的2月6日正式公告修正農售防治地1151881353號那在2月12號在簽訂ART之前農業部拿馬鈴薯去試好那我們衛福部最先拿什麼是拿農藥來跟他們談嗎"},{"start":5793.961,"end":5813.628,"text":"跟委員說明剛剛我一再的提到對馬鈴薯的檢驗程序標準都沒有改變啦我們沒有改變我們一樣是這個需要抽驗2到10%以前是有發現發芽就整批退回啦那現在是農業部這邊講是有發現這個發芽是拿來丟掉丟掉然後再送然後你們再抽驗嘛對你們是抽驗的2到10%嘛對沒錯嘛那當然"},{"start":5823.451,"end":5848.182,"text":"這個部分越南講的那個逐科來檢查那是不可能的事情嘛所以我們檢驗不會用逐科檢驗因為這一批如果驗到有人力就整批就退了如果要用整顆來這個每一顆來檢查的話你一年要花上億元的幾千萬到上億元的這個人工成本費跟我們說明我們這一批只要驗到一顆超標"},{"start":5849.042,"end":5866.573,"text":"那這一批就會整個把它銷毀或退運所以不需要一顆一顆驗你們比這個農業部更早金茂幫你去談答應美國兩年內要大規模放寬農藥標準MTE說報告說你們答應如果台灣沒訂定農業產業標準就採納美國標準或CODES的國際標準那114年3月11號公告32種100項徵休"},{"start":5878.74,"end":5902.067,"text":"真修訂這個阿納寧等這個32種農藥於100項農作物之殘留容許量皆歸美方出國的這個要求你們就做了修改那114年11月26號公告15種78項包含梨果這個柑橘玉米及米類同步修正動物農藥產品的標準那115年"},{"start":5906.028,"end":5929.642,"text":"1月9號草案預告38種174項涉及茶、咖啡、堅果、羽衣、感染等預計在2026年第二季生效那總共約含85種352項持續向美國及國際標準來接軌所以衛福部早在川普放話之前就知道一定會拿實案來交換嗎"},{"start":5931.216,"end":5958.522,"text":"應該不是這麼說就是說在國際貿易上大家都是採相同的標準以前都沒有做這個標準所以過去我們就會產生很多跟人家的爭議我們蔡英文總統的時候就沒有發生這個問題為什麼我們現在要做這個事情應該是我們一直逐步逐步只是說有時候我們的速度不夠快你修的這些80%都是進口商外商的申請不是增加項目就是增加這個劑量美國還要你們開放多少"},{"start":5959.853,"end":5981.969,"text":"我們的標準上就是盡量來跟國際除了有特別的考量不然的話就跟國際標準一樣你3月5號簽完約不到一個月賴總統就宣布說要停侃要價三年那3月31號美國發布MTE報告的時候稱讚台灣在要價透明度上有正面的發展這證明了什麼"},{"start":5983.85,"end":6003.358,"text":"暫停藥價調查三年表面上是為了韌性事實上還是在為這個按照美國的意思來做這兩個是沒有關係那為什麼怎麼那麼剛好呢應該砍的是這樣這個藥價呢其實我們很多這個砍到的也是我們自己國產或者是學名藥這個藥價在調整上主要是因為這幾年"},{"start":6008.501,"end":6024.743,"text":"這個國際的那個原物料上漲的厲害那我們的要價調查呢都是前一年根據要價調查的結果來調整所以經常會發生說後面發生這個成本上漲的時候你看啊美國要我們開放牛脂跟牛血的進口農業部也開放了"},{"start":6025.123,"end":6052.45,"text":"ART協定裡面台灣承諾不採取任何與WOAH指引不一致的措施因此將移除某些美牛的產品禁令也會移除繁重的邊境檢查程序現在我們又從邊境來開門MTE報告上面說台灣答應開放牛角肉新甘盛每個來季的容許值是多少"},{"start":6055.331,"end":6058.372,"text":"我們目前是豬肝是0.04ppm牛如果是Codex的標準的話牛肝牛腎一個是0.04ppm一個是0.09ppm"},{"start":6076.627,"end":6089.873,"text":"因為我發現啦 我們發現就是說台灣承諾所有的這樣漏類的產品的萊克多巴胺也好或者是這個對齊我們CODES的這個標準你們所謂的科技標準 國際標準就是拿我們人民的身體來做試藥嘛"},{"start":6091.345,"end":6111.776,"text":"不會啦 這個一定都是按照國際然後也經過我們國內的健康風險評估你看啊 邊境也配合禁止竹箱檢查終止對美牛內臟蛇 鯨 睾丸等的竹箱檢查與解凍檢查以後美國牛肉進來 臺灣的海關只能看大包裝不能細查 是這個意思嗎"},{"start":6112.256,"end":6134.082,"text":"不是 因為我們過去已經查過非常的量很大都沒有超出這個標準所以按照我們過去的標準的做法是應該調降風險等級也就是調降它的抽驗很多微生物跟農藥殘留在肉品解凍後才能準確的取樣化驗你現在它沒有解凍你要怎麼化驗"},{"start":6135.653,"end":6162.478,"text":"呃 您說的是 那個美國你會進來啊它只能看大包裝啊 它不能拆啊 不能細查啊我們過去的做法的話都現在連解凍檢查都不行啊對這種生鮮的話 我們都是先做聚解然後在一個地方 讓它先出關放在一個地方 聚解在一個地方啊等我們解凍驗完之後 才放行所以過去都是這個做法但是現在沒有啊 現在它就連解凍都不行啊"},{"start":6163.779,"end":6184.39,"text":"解凍 沒有 就是我們抽菸的部分我們去解凍嘛那它要冷凍的部分我們會用一個拒絕的方式先放行到一個地點但是不能夠不能夠銷售還是放在那裡等我們的檢驗出來之後你看ART簽訂的內容就是台灣不得再允許該設施開始出口至台灣領土前要求對FS"},{"start":6186.071,"end":6200.118,"text":"FSIS的名錄中的設施進行視察或審計以前我們要開放美牛會派員去美國實地看工廠這條規定台灣這個不得去現場看這樣也可以答應啊沒有"},{"start":6201.218,"end":6221.326,"text":"我們還是要經過系統性查核這個國家還是要經過系統性查核然後我們還是有這個常規性routine的查場所以這個是都有的還有一個很誇張本協定生效後六個月內台灣應完成所有的行政程序已承認美國所設立的非洲豬瘟的保護區"},{"start":6222.786,"end":6241.726,"text":"使來自非疫區的美國豬肉及豬肉產品能夠進口以前如果美國某個地方發生非洲豬瘟那台灣可以主張全美皆為疫區來禁止進口保護本土的產業但這個協定生效以後只要說只要美國說這個州沒事你其他的都得繼續買"},{"start":6243.103,"end":6267.012,"text":"那我們要怎麼防疫呢根本說明因為其實美國一個州喔都比台灣的整個面積還大啦所以過去用這個範圍那麼大其實也超出這個美國的要求嘛對不對這個剛剛經理委員有講到這個ART有沒有用我們還不知道現在知道說如果讓這份協議生效我們以後就沒有選擇權全部都是美國說了算"},{"start":6267.392,"end":6283.577,"text":"不會不會我們還是具有最後的決定權國人的健康我們還是會嚴格把關的我希望部長你還是要以良心來做這個部長絕對的這個男女的健康我們都是排在第一位好啦謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員謝謝邱振軍委員發言接下來請廖偉祥委員發言"},{"start":6303.261,"end":6304.748,"text":"來 謝謝主席 請石部長"},{"start":6310.476,"end":6324.145,"text":"部長早我想2024年凱凱案都震驚社會政府也隨即推動所謂社安網2.0試圖再補破網我們也看到預算從115年的106億到119年的819億.6億將近820億我們當然也可以看出部長對於改善社工處境以及提升整體的社會安全網友"},{"start":6339.915,"end":6358.588,"text":"這個很大的決心但是我拜讀了一下你們的強化社會安全網的計畫2.0也就是115年到119年和訂本的內容之後有幾個現實的問題想要請教第一個如今的社工人力流失呢我想已經不是新聞那全國的禁用率"},{"start":6359.716,"end":6377.011,"text":"是從2021年的89.7%掉到82.8%那當然其中一個原因是預估需求越來越大但是新增的社工的速度趕不上需求的增加那當然也有造成幾個亂象請教一下部長因為我看了一下有媒體報導這個"},{"start":6379.933,"end":6390.347,"text":"如果縣市政府地方政府把自聘人力轉去社安網那到職的一天之後就離職也會算進用率的狀況請問一下衛福部有沒有這樣的狀況"},{"start":6393.868,"end":6420.785,"text":"這個可能要掌握一下所以沒有掌握跟委員報告就是我們對於社安網各縣市的社工跟專業人員的禁用率我們年度就是以12月的最後的那個禁用的一個人數來做計算12月最後的那天的人數嘛對不對好所以這就報導下一題就是說所以這個報導就指出如果社安網的員工想要離職這些主管會拜託他撐到12月以後"},{"start":6422.011,"end":6449.266,"text":"好 所以目前有沒有掌握要成過12月以後就離職潮的現象發生跟委員報告 我們的確也在這個聯繫匯報每半年會針對社工人員的流動率進行一些統計那我們最新的統計是在14年12月底的一個情況對嘛 對那你那這個14年12月底那你現在15年之後你有沒有去追蹤還沒"},{"start":6451.483,"end":6460.541,"text":"對 就是目前還在觀測當中都沒有 目前這三個月第一劑都沒有關注還是有統計那你統計你有沒有發現他12月以後有離職潮"},{"start":6462.398,"end":6486.632,"text":"當然人數是進進出出有一些浮動你有沒有發現有離職潮這個狀況因為我剛剛講了兩個亂象嘛第一個亂象就是他可能一天到職因為他知道你哪一天要統計他就請那天自己移過去把這個人數衝高然後過了之後說拜託你超過12月以後你要離職再離職有沒有這個狀況有很多的因素比方說年終兩職沒關係你告訴我有沒有這個狀況就好"},{"start":6488.232,"end":6505.402,"text":"我們查一下這個每個月的人數的變動的資料我們再提供給委員不過其實我們各類人員都有類似的情形就是在這個年終獎金發放之後那個本來要好沒有我要跟你講其中有個根本的原因其實上面"},{"start":6505.902,"end":6527.408,"text":"都有這種既有的亂象會問這個問題是因為啊你沒有把這個禁用率納入考核所以你就有可能導致地方政府為了達成這個聘用率一再的降低聘用率的標準反正你先聘進來再說你的教育環節可能也不足那大家在湊數字所以如果沒有達成考核標準會發生什麼後果KPI齁對你的KPI會發生什麼後果禁用率未達85%會要扣除考核"},{"start":6536.952,"end":6552.23,"text":"應該是會扣分嘛對不對取消了取消了115年今年取消了取消今年取消新的一年今年開始取消那我只是想問你那如果所以這個KPI已經沒有了沒有了沒有了確定沒有了你不會因為這個KPI沒有達成然後未來"},{"start":6553.351,"end":6561.336,"text":"這個明年度去說那我要我不要讓你給你補助這麼多或者是讓你在這個預算上面不要有這麼多的補助會嗎你們會這樣嗎以前禁用率會達85%會會扣分嘛對不對那現在"},{"start":6568.224,"end":6586.085,"text":"對 會扣補助款嘛之前會扣補助款對不對所以你們現在確定今年之後都不會有了今年沒有了今年取消這一項好 因為我要跟你講的事情是其實這個相關KPI你們也應該回去檢討除了這個之外有沒有其他會導致這樣子惡性循環的因為它就"},{"start":6586.505,"end":6615.227,"text":"他就是如果他打不到然後你又砍他補助然後結果他導致他越來越少資源投入那是不是導致一個負向的惡性循環是所以另外部長你們在2.0的計畫裡面第三頁啊其實就有提到將會擴大服務族群那規劃將服務對象擴大到新社會家庭那服務率要從1.14%提升到50%好那你服務量會增加43倍啊那你的獨居老人每一年要成長10%"},{"start":6616.568,"end":6637.538,"text":"那還有的這個數位性別暴力啦淨貧邊緣戶的財務社會工作啦那我想要請問這樣社工是不是需要更進一步的教育訓練那這樣子的業務量是不是會增加你們評估會增加多少的工作量我們社團網2.0是預估要增加9000名啦就是說到119年我是說你們擴大了這麼多的對象我想請問一下"},{"start":6643.42,"end":6667.388,"text":"擴大這麼多業務我們當然希望可以照顧越多越好可是在你既有的這些社工的量能之下他的工作量會增加多少這個跟委員說明我們這裡有很多種不同的對象但是像新生兒服務這個大概不是社工為主那麼獨居老人可能有部分可是也不是全部我跟你說因為你們我們還是會希望"},{"start":6667.808,"end":6682.824,"text":"有不同的這個多元能力的部長我跟你說李建德次長他在2025年12月22號的時候也在這個委員會其他委員會有親口宣告說要擴大六類所以包含了新手父母獨居長者近平性影像原住民多元性別所以"},{"start":6683.124,"end":6702.947,"text":"我要說的事情是你現在擴大了這麼多好你現在增加9000名可是你實際也沒這麼多人那我試跑了一下模型去預估和推估他說第一線人員的體感工作量可能會增加至少20%當然這個估算不一定完全準確但是具體來說就是基層人力目前已經確定還缺乏"},{"start":6703.948,"end":6732.875,"text":"而且還沒有補足的情況之下現在可能還有法律風險雖然我們都希望擴大這個服務範圍可是這樣會不會給第一線人員或是督導或是地方政府更大的壓力我們會試這個人力的到位情形來調整我們的目標啦當然因為這個是提報計畫的時候當然我們會用一個比較高的挑戰的具有挑戰性的目標不過我們會按照實際的情況也避免造成這個第一線人員的"},{"start":6733.655,"end":6749.368,"text":"所以你們有沒有什麼打算的做法不是只有講一個目標出來那你要怎麼做到不要讓他工作量增加又可以增加趕快更多人我們大概每天還是會滾動滾動去調整這個目標的設定目標設定是一回事你既然設了這個目標你就要有一個可以達成的方法嘛"},{"start":6750.089,"end":6779.369,"text":"所以你要怎麼達成這個目標當然不然你這個目標不就是虛設嗎第一個當然我們有些是可以靠這個數位技術協助的就是AI導入協助他分案等等這樣的那人力的這個留任然後徵聘訓練這個也是一個然後再所以簡單來講就是你要增加薪水可能會找到真心的方式然後要增加AI導入的方式對不對對好那但是呢"},{"start":6780.369,"end":6799.538,"text":"我想喔這個你又在這個110頁裡面嚴格規定了資新的標準喔所以我想要講的事情是你的這個計畫書啊你工作量增加了20%雖然你說你可能會增加薪資AI導入可是事實上你有一個資新的標準在那裡那資新成長有限你真的覺得留得住人才嗎部長"},{"start":6801.482,"end":6823.429,"text":"我們會盡量來爭取讓他的心智要合理你應該要去檢討一下你如果有那個標準在那然後你沒有把你把標準定在那裡然後你要增加這麼多的工作量我不覺得你留得下人才那你是不是會考慮譬如說增加新點或增加新點的折合率然後另外你剛所謂的AI導入或者是數位導入轉型你多久可以上線"},{"start":6824.789,"end":6847.767,"text":"這個已經開始啟動在做了那你們現在做的成效如何呢在招標還沒做因為這是115年開始的對嘛那我就問什麼時候上線嘛你在招標那等你招標完建制完到上線系統而且我們都知道數位導入並不是一件容易的事情還需要整個體系的習慣運作工作流程要調整那我想要請問這樣子要多久"},{"start":6848.511,"end":6870.238,"text":"這個都已經在進行中嘛不是啦 部長 你是在進行中嘛你是在招標而已啦你剛剛說你開始招標嘛招標是那個技術的協助但是相關的文件都已經在討論了所以我剛剛問的問題很具體是什麼時候上線然後它可以融入到這個第一階段大概是年底會完成那個系統年底喔 對"},{"start":6871.098,"end":6896.652,"text":"我覺得因為從今年開始就已經人力不足了然後弄到年底然後你的薪資還沒有提升我擔心你這樣子的量能跟你這樣的量能跟這個給他的待遇你真的留得住人嗎我們努力加速來推動啦因為這個還是要有時間啦這個也不可能急救這樣是 那我另外就想要請問一下在關懷訪視員的部分啊目前這個自殺關懷訪視員平均每個人要負責74案啊"},{"start":6900.808,"end":6926.441,"text":"是原本規劃的兩倍那你們要怎麼降低因為那個還是有按照這個風險分級的他也不是說每個的訪視頻率或關懷頻率都是相同你們第二期定本來是定這個1比40沒有達到那2.0改1比30其實更嚴重了還沒開始就破功了你這樣子會不會差太多"},{"start":6927.401,"end":6950.081,"text":"然後我其實去查了一下國際比較當然每個國家可能實務上到底深入多少不一定可是我看到的是包含這個英國可能平均是15.4案日本可能是40案然後我們的74等於是美國的6倍英國的5倍日本目標的2倍所以我想要講的問題就是說那你要怎麼降低啊"},{"start":6952.18,"end":6966.698,"text":"這個我們當然一方面增加人力啦一方面呢那個改變那個工作的這個方式啦是啊所以我剛剛前面一直在跟你討論這個所謂的人力流用啊或是待遇增加啊這些相關的問題還有數位方式所以"},{"start":6967.319,"end":6983.879,"text":"可是部長你有沒有覺得我這樣問問到來還是有點你的回答還是有點空泛其實我知道其實台灣各行各業都很過勞啦這過去其實這個案子更多我們是逐步在下降了那個我記得以前還超過"},{"start":6984.88,"end":7004.67,"text":"一兩百案一個人在負責現在我們是逐步在給他往下調我希望部長這個因為你現在沒有辦法完整的回答我希望你們可以回去務實的檢討然後給本席辦公室具體的做法好不好因為不能夠總是用這個帶過的方式當然你說有沒有這樣可能有這樣可是我們離目標還這麼遠然後你定的目標是這樣到底怎麼達到"},{"start":7005.791,"end":7031.758,"text":"然後另外也有媒體報導這個所謂的再通報率這個KPI是非常不合理所以原因在於你們根本沒有釐清再通報的根本原因所以僅就單就這個再通報率去做指標那就會變成可能會讓各單位變成害怕單責任也造成各協力單位的第一線人員可能想辦法是說那我要往外推這個責任然後最後可能還會推回到社工身上"},{"start":7032.554,"end":7056.606,"text":"所以目前你們的這個社安網2.0中的績效KPI也有明確的要求脆弱家庭服務三個月後案件被通報的保護案件比率的目標值要從3.5%壓到119年要低於3%部長你有沒有想過在被通報的時候真的有可能是有結構因素或者是一些不可歸咎於社工的因素"},{"start":7057.106,"end":7081.54,"text":"好比如說經濟問題啊再次施暴啊我想要表達的是社工不是神喔有時候不是他們不想解決而是他可能沒有能力解決或是在那個狀況之下就連很多這個宗教的聖人要開導一個人也不是說馬上開導輔導他就可以過了嘛對不對所以你有沒有更溫和的機制用專案協助代替考核而不是"},{"start":7082.12,"end":7097.706,"text":"用這種中央補助的資源啊來這個所謂用KPI來挾持地方政府最後大家可能為了獲得充足的經費然後已經很累了還要處理考核指標然後把分數衝高最後就變成在玩數字遊戲為了考核而考核這個"},{"start":7099.952,"end":7124.78,"text":"在通報這個統計我們都還是應該要掌握啦才知道服務的成效但是我們已經不把它當作是一個KPI啦已經把它拿掉就是說不用這個來做考核現在你確定已經都拿掉了嗎已經拿掉了你確定拿掉為什麼我在你們的這個你們的這個2.0裡面的績效KPI裡面所以你文件裡面還寫著"},{"start":7126.198,"end":7154.3,"text":"退家的部分那我們再回答你對啊你還有啊部長你不能亂回答部長你不能亂回答我你要請他們如果你不曉得內容你要跟他們講啊保護個案如果是保護個案這個部分是拿掉那其他的呢這個是我剛剛說的是脆弱家庭服務三個月後案件被通報保護案件比例的這個目標值這個有拿掉嗎沒有那我們回頭再檢討了"},{"start":7156.853,"end":7176.06,"text":"我覺得你們KPI的時候就是說我們的這個在通報裡我剛有提到我們需要有這個數字的掌握才知道服務的成效但是要不要拿來作為KPI這個是另外討論這些客觀數據是讓你們拿來精進你們的這個成果的部分但是你如果把它錯誤拿來作為績效的KPI"},{"start":7176.6,"end":7193.32,"text":"你會導致所謂的數字遊戲你結構不對產出的成果也是錯的不好意思主席最後一題因為它這裡面可能的這個原因很多啦就像您提到的原因很多不是啦但是你要回去檢討你們的KPI其實我上一年2025年的時候我就有講過我在質詢的時候也有講過"},{"start":7195.643,"end":7219.19,"text":"你2024年我說社安網在崩潰中2025年我就說你們的KPI有錯誤可能有錯誤你會導致目標整個走這個方向完全不對那你現在的績效還是這樣設定的話你就會導致大家為了考核考核為了樹枝漂亮去美化你並沒有真正達到所謂的社安網的目標啊所以你這個一定要回去檢討然後這個我們一個月內提出檢討好談到你們的這個社安網計畫2.0的106頁"},{"start":7224.691,"end":7239.261,"text":"你們這個兒少通報案件經調查派案後提供服務的比率你們到119年要達到95%那一樣代表你們強制要求95%的案件都必須進入後端的服務系統"},{"start":7240.402,"end":7262.664,"text":"但是伴隨現在的數據可以看到在凱凱案後已經有明顯的防衛性通報的思維那因為現在的法制也明確要求只要責任之息就必須通報所以當然有大量的案件也進入了調查系統那大調查系統的成績也不用太難看就一定要讓一部分的案件再進入到服務系統"},{"start":7263.737,"end":7283.739,"text":"所以你的現況就是已經湧進了太多的通報量也造成國家系統的癱瘓那可能就會變成是大量的社工人力必須用在調查事件沒有辦法更細緻化在這個後端的服務也導致這個真正需要服務的或者國家資源的配置失衡所以從數據來看我們可以看到這樣的矛盾"},{"start":7284.608,"end":7312.644,"text":"近年的兒校通報案件數跟通報人數持續的增加但實際進入到這個保護服務的人數並沒有同步上升而且福利的服務量更是呈現下降的趨勢以2025年為例在69109名的通報個案中最終接受到保護服務者僅9898人是6年來的新低同時也反映出這個福報通報的現象越來越嚴重"},{"start":7314.005,"end":7320.092,"text":"那你們現在呢又要求調查服務比例要到95%那最後就會變成什麼就會變成是廣通報廣調查廣服務然後大家如果數據不好看就會被檢討最後還會篩選最後還會有這個有篩選過也會讓後端的這個需要服務的KPI一再的增加所以現況就是這樣子的"},{"start":7335.649,"end":7358.789,"text":"深入的報導 我有看到社福中心擔心案量太大那他可能會為了衝高開案率社工會在長官的受益下 可能啊會讓一些單純只是申請急難紓困的資源可能沒有其他明顯問題不需要後續處於的民眾列為追蹤個案所以你廣開了短期服務三個月後又快速結案"},{"start":7359.85,"end":7378.835,"text":"就變成一個在追求數字的遊戲你們未來會如何避免是不是應該要建立相關的案件風險的評估機制不是單純的要求服務比率拉高然後你所謂不管是分流分級你到底應該每一個階層你應該怎麼去設計不是一味的用數字去壓是不是"},{"start":7380.074,"end":7399.419,"text":"跟委員說明現在就是利用這個調查中心先篩案因為幾個事件之後那麼這個防衛性通報確實有增加的情形所以才會透過中間這一層去篩案所以後面所謂的服務提供比例是篩完之後交付"},{"start":7400.499,"end":7418.733,"text":"下一段那麼的服務比例並不是所有進來的95%都要去服務所以現在這個有很明確嗎因為我們聽得很明確假設你沒有聽得很明確然後也沒有說一定要20%的開案率也沒有這個指標我跟你講這個叫做有點像是潛規則我們擔心有這個潛規則因為你設計的KPI導致了整個"},{"start":7423.537,"end":7434.445,"text":"整個這個運作流程有問題所以我要提醒部長如果整個體系如果你們設定的KPI不對你就會導致所謂的廣開案快捷案湊人數的數字遊戲這就會違背我們當初訂立這些KPI的初衷"},{"start":7439.528,"end":7468.419,"text":"所以你應該剛剛你有說一個月請你研擬一個一份完整的應對報告然後一個月內交於本席辦公室我們希望這個社團網的設計我們一個月內把這些KPI指標我們再檢討一下那麼不要去造成這個負荷的過重這個我們來討論好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝謝謝部長謝謝廖偉祥委員發言接下來請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":7480.115,"end":7508.85,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請一下施部長有請施部長兩位也好 部長好部長任何法律的制定跟制度的設定其實再怎麼完美都不能讓人免於傷心就是都一定會有一些遺憾產生我想我們在委員會當然"},{"start":7510.526,"end":7514.37,"text":"不討論單一的個案我們來討論一個整體性的問題就是保護性的業務對於社工來講其實是支撐很大的"},{"start":7532.884,"end":7547.931,"text":"的作用我看我們社安網因為業務需求所以源額也持續在擴大可是禁用率來看呢2021年的禁用率是89.7%"},{"start":7552.642,"end":7569.227,"text":"去年是82.8%也就是說社安網本身一直有兩成左右的人力缺口沒有人你就支撐不了這個安全網"},{"start":7572.133,"end":7598.787,"text":"而且流動率也高最近因為單一的事件所以引發整體的社會氛圍是這樣子我們還是必須要靠社工來支撐這個安全環境所以我們還是必須要做社工的後盾"},{"start":7600.948,"end":7618.675,"text":"我想請問一下因為經用率持續下降所以除了完善薪資制度這個我們講過好幾次就是現在已經社工的薪資會隨著軍工教育調整這個跟部裡面肯定一下"},{"start":7619.755,"end":7633.243,"text":"包括他每年增加一千可能七年就停這個要不要延長這個可能你們也正在努力中我想薪資當然是讓"},{"start":7637.826,"end":7659.58,"text":"讓我們投入某個行業的其中一個重要因素而不是唯一的因素有沒有辦法有其他的方法可以讓讓有實務經驗的人願意留住還有沒有其他的措施"},{"start":7661.586,"end":7682.483,"text":"當然跟委員說,我們剛剛也提到,那麼科技的協助也是啦,讓他在這個分案啊,或者是在管理個案的時候,能夠更省工程序也可以簡化,這個資訊系統的整合,讓他這個個案的追蹤上也能夠更流暢,工作能夠簡化"},{"start":7683.904,"end":7710.83,"text":"最重要的有一些剛剛前一位廖委員也在提到的這些KPI應該要檢討合適就好避免這個對我跟部長溝通一下就是我一開始就講了就是說法律跟制度的設定再怎麼完善都不能讓人免於傷心就是說在這個部分當社會壓力來的時候我們有沒有辦法去支撐"},{"start":7713.012,"end":7734.083,"text":"社工的心理狀態社工也是人他們的心理支持我們怎麼在制度上設計一套讓他們給他們力量的制度有沒有辦法這個很難我知道"},{"start":7736.938,"end":7754.204,"text":"我想我們過去也都有提供一些教育訓練,可能要把心理支持、心理健康的部分導入,然後我們也嘗試的去把一些部件資源給予這些社工支持。"},{"start":7756.751,"end":7783.959,"text":"這可能也沒有辦法討論很多像最近其實大概我們收到很多社工想要離職甚至於有一些已經投入社工行列的社工直接告訴學弟妹不要進入這個行業這對整個國家社會來講是一個很大的傷害所以你們有沒有"},{"start":7785.439,"end":7811.07,"text":"或者是我直接要求你們這樣可能沒有辦法在這邊回答啦有沒有辦法做更明確的工作指引那當然我剛才也講再怎麼明確的工作指引還是沒有辦法避免憾事啦不過就是看能不能看怎麼從制度面來支持社工啦我覺得社工對於"},{"start":7812.33,"end":7831.352,"text":"對於社會的健全發展是很重要的一個環節那我們不支持他那誰來支持社會其實確實像委員提到的不論是這個工作指引或者是工作規範這個當然一方面這個是"},{"start":7833.275,"end":7855.801,"text":"這個是一正兩面定的太細你就缺乏了彈性最後反而讓它容易被刻折啦你定的太鬆有時候那個模糊空間有那也會造成另外的問題所以這個怎麼去拿捏就像這個醫師開刀也是一樣你叫他每一個步驟都把它定出來"},{"start":7856.943,"end":7866.583,"text":"那可能這個病人也會開始掉因為每個狀況是不一樣的所以有一個規範當然是好但是要定到什麼程度"},{"start":7867.808,"end":7886.276,"text":"這個是一刀兩刃所以我剛才也說了沒有要你在這邊回答不過核心的概念就是我覺得我們應該要給予社工更大的支持當作他們強烈的後盾要不然一直離職也不是辦法"},{"start":7888.837,"end":7895.125,"text":"好 部長請先回去好了 今天剛好國教署來我跟國教署討論"},{"start":7908.451,"end":7925.481,"text":"副署長我大概想要問幾個問題第一個就是說校園安全的問題頻傳其中校園暴力的通報人數從2022年的3萬3提升到2024年6萬人次"},{"start":7934.286,"end":7938.492,"text":"然後其中師長跟師生間的衝突也從2018年每10萬人有47位到2023年每10萬人增加到"},{"start":7951.917,"end":7979.317,"text":"212位增加了4倍那當然造成學生行為偏差的原因跟學校校園暴力的原因都很多那我想要請教一下副署長當然我還是先替你講一下話就是教育本身跟教育行政還是不同的領域不過教育行政有的時候"},{"start":7980.638,"end":8004.481,"text":"指導者的教育的方向所以還是要問你學校老師的管教權一再被限縮以後你覺得學校的老師現在主要的角色是什麼你懂我的意思嗎懂問題嗎那請回答一下"},{"start":8005.823,"end":8031.069,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們就是下案通報的有關一些衝突管教的事件人數增加這個問題對老師而言坦白說整個校園的環境還有就是說我們青少年兒少所面臨的社會環境的那個影響坦白說在校園的輔導管教裡面的確是"},{"start":8033.249,"end":8055.415,"text":"增加很多的挑戰那基本上我們也是很希望老師能夠體察到就是社會環境影響下我們兒少的一些他們的心理健康的狀況以及他的情緒以及他的學業的表現副主長我現在問的問題是說"},{"start":8059.844,"end":8070.947,"text":"老師的管教權被限縮成這個樣子你覺得老師在校園裡面的角色或工作樣態是什麼"},{"start":8073.1,"end":8096.528,"text":"基本上老師他的管教權基本上我們還是都有一些輔導管教的一些原理原則你們有一個輔導管教學生辦法的注意事項那我舉這裡一個例子主席不好意思我把這題問完就是說學生"},{"start":8099.77,"end":8109.319,"text":"這個我剛才講的這個注意辦法裡面就有正向管教譬如說我舉一個例子就是學生可能在課堂上就是老師在講課他就講話嘛"},{"start":8121.963,"end":8139.846,"text":"你們這邊給老師的例示是這樣子就是跟這個學生講上課時在沒有舉手或被邀請發言時請你不要講話那這是第一次那這個學生講說第二次"},{"start":8141.53,"end":8155.039,"text":"你再跟他講一次那第三次你可能可以這個都是你們的歷史想想看如果你很想聽課卻有同學不斷講話你會受到什麼影響這個我不評斷你們的歷史可是因為學生"},{"start":8170.651,"end":8195.703,"text":"每一個學生的觀念跟行為都不一樣所以這個學生一直講話老師就只能一直跟他好言相勸我簡單問一個問題會不會影響到其他學生的授教權"},{"start":8196.986,"end":8218.503,"text":"我想應該多少會有影響那老師只能對這個學生一再的跟他重複講說這個是不對的因為你沒有舉手然後你去想其他的學生會受到影響這個學生"},{"start":8221.86,"end":8236.81,"text":"當下會有能力想嗎他可能回家或者是突然在幾個月以後心智成熟了他會想可是這一節課裡面他會想嗎"},{"start":8242.419,"end":8265.689,"text":"基本上就是學生都是未成年嘛那我們都很期待老師還是用正向的語言正向管教的態度來對這些學生我現在就是在講說正向這個大家都支持可是管教權只剩下這樣子只剩下這樣子因為復讐要了解"},{"start":8269.059,"end":8291.061,"text":"學校是團體的是 團體生活不是 課堂也不是只有一對一的教學是那老師的管教權只剩下你們力士的這種模式其他學生的受教權會不會受到影響"},{"start":8292.95,"end":8299.096,"text":"跟各位說明當然這個是歷史那我們很希望說老師盡量用正向的語言盡量"},{"start":8305.284,"end":8327.057,"text":"說盡量就是還有其他的方式嗎那他大概可以怎麼做班級經營的策略能不能砸占比如說他可以有分組那分組的話其實他也有一些小的幹部班級的幹部可以協助維持一些秩序等等的那如果說"},{"start":8328.057,"end":8339.344,"text":"老師維持不了 其他的幹部維持得了嗎有的時候同儕協助是可以的 反而是可以的有時候一些小幫手 或是小署長 都多少長我並不想在這裡為難你啦因為這個問題確實是值得 教育行政也好"},{"start":8350.578,"end":8363.824,"text":"家長也好社會大眾也好大家都要思考一下就是說讓老師的管教權限縮到極致到底對於整體教育"},{"start":8365.66,"end":8383.553,"text":"是好的還是會有很多更大的問題產生就像我剛才講的班級上並不是只有一個學生其他學生的受教權怎麼保障或者是說學生的管教權過於限縮會不會讓老師的熱情也限縮了"},{"start":8394.659,"end":8401.404,"text":"這個我想你在這裡沒有辦法回答不過你們回去真的要好好思考最後一個問題最後一個問題"},{"start":8407.304,"end":8426.752,"text":"所以說教育部去年已經宣布提高導師的假期行政假期跟終點費終點費提高了百分之二十對二十五那終點費調整的部分僅限於第一節到第七節沒有包括第八節"},{"start":8427.992,"end":8449.146,"text":"那第八節呢有一種課程叫做學習輔助受輔助的對象其實他是國英數三個科目沒有通過篩選測驗的可是呢你們調的是一到七節第八節這個反而沒有所以現在變成第一到七節正常的上班時間的終點費比"},{"start":8453.747,"end":8469.859,"text":"學習輔助的課後輔導的重點會高這個你們回去趕快做調整這個部分我們也在陸續的研議有一些如果是屬於有一些是家長必須要分擔的我們現在不討論那個"},{"start":8471.98,"end":8494.298,"text":"我現在討論的是學習輔助的這個部分這個部分是家長免付費然後是為了要讓學生趕上進度的那你一到七節的中年費高於這個會影響老師投入的熱情好不好而且也顯然不公平啦"},{"start":8494.858,"end":8499.64,"text":"其實人家運動部就比你們快一點運動部已經把第八節的運動成績優秀學生的學習輔助計畫提高到540元你們現在是450元"},{"start":8525.7,"end":8549.999,"text":"這個差距趕快把它拉起來我們會研議好不好那有關我剛剛講的老師的管教權的範圍我覺得真的大家都要再重新思考一下好不好好 這個部分我們再來研究好 謝謝主席好 謝謝謝謝楊耀遠發言我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":9155.235,"end":9170.552,"text":"現在繼續開會 我們接下來請王振旭委員發言好 謝謝主席有請時務長有請時務長"},{"start":9179.211,"end":9196.437,"text":"部長好今天要花一點時間來跟部長討論三個題目第一個就是整合串接這個跨網路系統資訊的部分第二部分是兒少工作證的保護範圍第三個部分就是保障這個兒少醫療自主權"},{"start":9197.797,"end":9224.722,"text":"今天謝謝主席安排這樣的這個主題來有機會針對這三個主題跟部長來做一個切磋首先是關於這個整合串接跨網絡系統的資訊的部分那其實今天有蠻多委員也跟部長討論這個相關重要的議題那其實我們在之前外務部有跟辦公室來討論社會安全網2.0的時候特別關注有關於這個資訊系統的串接跟整合"},{"start":9225.482,"end":9242.184,"text":"那外務部那時候也提到要建立一個大數據的資料平台甚至要發展社會政務大員的模型就是LLM那在今天的書文報告裡面部長也表示說已經在推動跨部會的串接系統串接"},{"start":9242.885,"end":9267.165,"text":"整合包括保護令、精神照護、犯罪紀錄等34項的資訊系統那這邊要請教的就是有關於已推動的實質進度是如何因為這邊是寫已推動那是這34項的這個穿接系統是正在測試還是部分開放還是全面的上限這是第一部分"},{"start":9267.685,"end":9274.991,"text":"那第二部分就是跨部會的橫向整合的成效跟障礙那只是在僅限於設定體系內的資料交換嗎"},{"start":9276.192,"end":9293.947,"text":"那警政教育社政單位的資訊是我真的能夠及時的來做共享那第一線的社工已經在很忙碌的情形下那是我還需要在不同的系統之間來重複的登載資料那第三個部分就是每一次碰到問題的時候呢是被動的來召開會議還是將來有機會有一個主動的系統的預警"},{"start":9298.651,"end":9314.116,"text":"期待在每一次在重大案件發生之前就能夠透過數據來觸發跨部會的預警而不是依據特定的單位來發動才能夠召開重要的會議那針對這個三個部分部長可不可以給我們意見"},{"start":9314.696,"end":9342.423,"text":"好 謝謝委員的關心確實這個資訊流是最重要因為我們這個社安網跨的那個部會太多 單位太多所以在一起的時候就已經開始在做這個資訊的串接所以現在已經完成這34個不只是醫療衛福譬如說在精神這個照護資訊系統還有跟保護令這邊跟那個毒房"},{"start":9343.53,"end":9360.08,"text":"那甚至有跨到那個這個對司法的這個系統這樣這個已經進行完成這個串接啦這個是已經完成的那至於說這個獄警的"},{"start":9361.321,"end":9382.403,"text":"預警的這個目前是在發展一些模型看能不能更早的更主動式的有一個預警這個是現在在發展中是不過我們第一線的反應好像是說這個資料庫之前還是有一道高牆執行上要重複登"},{"start":9383.584,"end":9408.959,"text":"對 還是有需要再接近的地方這個沒有我相信這個在我們過去做這些資料系統串接的時候都有類似的情形因為總是本來各個這個系統它的這個欄位名稱定義上有時候都不太一樣所以在串的時候是最大的障礙那所以重複登載的"},{"start":9410.941,"end":9435.659,"text":"問題我們從色證慢慢去跨到不同的部會之間的系統我們再繼續優化聽起來如果已經串接都非常好的話那是不是可以針對這34項系統的串接現況提供一份清單哪些系統已經實現了雙向自動化的數據交換哪些系統還留在手動查詢或單項匯入的部分"},{"start":9436.159,"end":9449.608,"text":"能不能夠提供相關的資料給我們做參考還有跨部會的資料借接實務上需要的法規或技術障礙如果有的話在哪裡是可不可以在兩個禮拜裡面也跟委員再補充其實這個這個資料串接的問題其實"},{"start":9453.331,"end":9468.417,"text":"我們在醫療一樣有同樣的問題所以才會在去年開始啟動就是那個台灣那個台灣call data那個定義把它一樣所以現在已經有三家醫學中心可以即時串了"},{"start":9468.917,"end":9488.127,"text":"那這個概念我們也放在社福上面所以現在今年已經開始啟動把這個社政的資料也納入台灣call data social就是社政體系也採那個醫療的那個概念所以未來這個資料的串接就會更順暢太好了那就麻煩把這個資料這個我們那個資訊處理處長很優秀他都不斷的在推進這樣"},{"start":9492.469,"end":9504.817,"text":"OK好那就兩個禮拜謝謝那再過來談到這個兒少的工作證民間團體跟社會大眾非常關心這個兒少工作證的入法因為在去年的時候呢"},{"start":9505.762,"end":9533.896,"text":"這樣的共識是透過公共政策網路參與平台的提案有9000位的民眾也有附議要求要任何會接觸到兒少的工作者都必須要持有兒童工作證或兒少工作證以確保其過去無性傷害無內帶兒少的這個前科紀錄那這個只是一個消極的這個資格的規定包括行政程序其實不只是這樣應該是一個防堵兒少傷害的第一道的過濾網"},{"start":9535.177,"end":9564.457,"text":"那根據這個提案的通過衛福部在去年6月2號也正式回應說會針對這一次的部分也在會加以研修那在4月21號終於預告了這個兒少全法的修訂的版本那也包括了這一部分這個真的是謝謝衛福部這方面的努力不過也有一些是遺漏的部分在這邊跟部長來討論一下因為在預告的版本裡面有關於兒少工作證的部分主要就是會"},{"start":9565.457,"end":9590.793,"text":"說在第6條的定義第109條的消極資格跟116條的舉證證明那在前面的提案裡面社會大眾期待是希望任何會接觸到兒少的工作者都應該納入可是在定義的地方第6條的第15款所謂的兒少及少年工作者僅限於經中央主管機關公告提供兒童及少年有關教育照顧"},{"start":9592.754,"end":9616.186,"text":"訓練且無其他法律規定之人員資格之人員那這部分可能會跟社會大眾的期待有所落差那我們以這個最近碰到的案例來做討論的話其實在今年二月中就有一位羅姓的婦科醫師他針對這個在看診的時候或者是他本身持有兒少性影像"},{"start":9616.946,"end":9634.744,"text":"病患的視密照所以同時他還參加很多的網路來散佈影音所以這部分已經被起訴而且是從中的要量刑那另外有一位診所的治療師涉及這個性侵他在來接受原治療的這個兒童"},{"start":9636.565,"end":9659.193,"text":"很多都還未成年是學齡前的兒童那這部分假設說這樣的案件經過判刑確定有第109條規定的不得擔任的犯罪他應該就不適合繼續在這個工作場域來接觸兒童如果是依照我們所一般的認知的話可是依照目前這個服務部的版本的定義"},{"start":9660.074,"end":9668.208,"text":"這個都不會被納入兒童工作證的範圍因為我們目前所看到的這個只有教育照顧跟訓練針對治療的部分其實並沒有規範到"},{"start":9672.745,"end":9693.331,"text":"那我們目前的醫師法跟語言治療師法裡面有關兒少保護也沒有類似的消極資格這就是我們擔心的部分所以我們不希望說出現一個案件修一個法這個事實上是非常反不及節而且是無法全面的去處理到就是有關於在兒少工作證裡面全面保護"},{"start":9694.151,"end":9721.513,"text":"好像還是有疑慮的地方那第二案件呢就是台中這個棒球教練性侵這個發生了這個個案這是有關於資料的一個串接在這個台中的個案裡面主要是主管機關在第116條的時候呢他待於去監督校方調查這個教職員的前科因為在116條裡面是規定雇用人員要應查詢並且要定期的來查詢相關人員"},{"start":9722.753,"end":9741.842,"text":"有沒有不得擔任的情形可是現在事務上最困擾基層的故事是要怎麼查他如果手邊沒有方便的查閱方式的話其實是有他的困難度那外部在研商的過程裡面是不是已經有跟相關部會討論如何穿接相關的資訊來如何確保資料庫的即時性與勾結的功能"},{"start":9742.302,"end":9768.463,"text":"是否能夠建置一個一站式的查詢平台那個證明的方式是怎麼樣將來是要發實體的耳騷工作證嗎還是用電子的這個耳騷工作證資料的即時性如何確保那如果某人在在職期間發生違法情勢系統能不能夠主動的去告知雇主而不是等到雇主去做定期查詢才發現那這些都是要法規上路前要確認的不要讓我們"},{"start":9769.284,"end":9787.744,"text":"好像這個修法非常的漂亮可是實務上執行上都會卡關這部分不知道部長有沒有什麼意見跟委員說明那麼這一次我們所提出的兒少全法的草案是採納有兒少工作證的精神"},{"start":9788.365,"end":9805.597,"text":"但是並不是真正去發一個證因為這個行政成本非常的高在執行面上卻有難度所以我們在這一次的草案裡面就列出了那麼兒少工作者那麼他的消極資格那未來配合一個系統的查詢"},{"start":9806.557,"end":9831.149,"text":"讓他可以去check 僱用者也好 或者是家長什麼 他可以去查到那麼這個是消極的資格 容易查詢那當然這個最重要就是後面那個資訊如何匯流 那個是我們的挑戰 沒有錯那至於說適用對象 我們這裡把它排除其他法律規定的人員主要是考慮到這個其他的有 最多的就是醫事人員"},{"start":9831.909,"end":9847.805,"text":"醫事人員因為他有他的醫事人員專業法規的規定那我們現在也建立了我們自己的資訊專區他甚至有肺躁最嚴重會有肺躁那前面其他的這些是沒有所謂的肺躁這件事情所以才需要有這樣的這個"},{"start":9851.087,"end":9875.775,"text":"這個工作證的這個精神那我們醫事人員如果你被廢照你就根本就不能做了就沒有這個問題所以我們是因為這樣的考量所以把它這邊寫一個排除其他法律已經有規定人員資格的那回到他的醫事人員法規去管理的概念那未來我們現在在預告中那就看看也許也可以再討論看看"},{"start":9876.955,"end":9898.194,"text":"是 那這個兩個問題也麻煩如果有詢問資料也可以讓我們來做參考我相信在法條審查的時候也一定會有非常大的討論最後一個就是有關於保障兒童醫療自主權不曉得部長有沒有知道這個個案我知道 2021年我們這個家園空間這個是我們健保當時候那個"},{"start":9901.017,"end":9917.026,"text":"開始幾副那個時候在我這個署長任內開始幾副咖啡的時候那個的受這個前幾個應該是第二個或第三個這個接受治療的對那簡單的說就是這一位還沒有成年可是在他的母親的"},{"start":9918.307,"end":9947.427,"text":"法律監督員之下 鑑定之下母親不願意讓他接受該有的治療其一的治療可是家人同學很想要有完整的治療這個當中發生了一些牽扯的問題那這個過程裡面扮演重要角色的台大兒少醫務社工蔡孟儒社工就表示說當時醫療專員陷入到法律與倫理的兩難包括當病童跟法定單元意見相準的時候醫師如何能夠尊重這個兒童的意願"},{"start":9947.987,"end":9953.696,"text":"可能要這樣會面臨這個違法的指控可是如果只依家長同意形式的話就會違反到醫療專業論理跟"},{"start":9955.08,"end":9983.395,"text":"病患權益的這個承諾這個大家可以了解那這個再過來是討論到這個CRC其實也針對於我們台灣如何針對兒少醫療的這個保護有沒有更這個前進的部分那在2017年兒少權力公約就已經開始針對這個台灣這部分希望能夠加強來保護到兒童那目前的目標是在2020前在18到12到18歲的兒少可以自己掛好"},{"start":9984.315,"end":10011.742,"text":"看診等等那目前不知道有沒有實際的這個進展這部分可能要麻煩衛部能夠持續來努力那我們也了解台灣目前是缺少具備法律效率的青少年成熟評估的這個制度那美國有所謂的成熟未成年人的原則那英國有吉利克能力的這個都是用來保護這些兒少在具備"},{"start":10013.302,"end":10034.174,"text":"這個理解力跟判斷能力的前提之下呢都有機會來不一定要取得家長的同意就能夠來落實兒少最佳權益的處理模式所以請問部長台灣何時才能夠有以成熟度評估來制度性的保障兒少的醫療自主權那第二部分我們也知道在醫療法的第63、64條是有制定說"},{"start":10037.456,"end":10064.669,"text":"這個未成年人需要取得待人同意的例外情況就是緊急情況下不再此現那類似這個家園的個案將來有可能利用這樣的法律規範來保障他的就醫權利嗎好謝謝委員這個剛剛您提到這個個案呢當時候就是台大醫院的這個醫護人員的那麼按照這個我們CRC的精神國家兒童的兒少的最佳"},{"start":10065.229,"end":10086.36,"text":"利益的考量所以按照這個兒少法呢提出緊急安置然後代理侵權然後再經過法院判定那麼判決指定這個醫療特別代理人那麼才繼續接受那個後續的化學治療那麼跟最後的這個細胞治療到目前都很好"},{"start":10087.1,"end":10104.55,"text":"那麼不過畢竟他的程序非常的繁瑣他又透過緊急安置然後又透過法院所以這個確實程序是很繁瑣那麼如何讓這個未成年人的這個醫療自主能夠表達雖然我們現在有這個叫做"},{"start":10106.47,"end":10128.235,"text":"這個病人自主權利法啦但是那個還是排除了未成年人所以我已經請醫師進行委託研究在今年年底之前那麼就這個哪些情境之下那麼這個如何以這個成熟度評估那麼兒童兒少的最佳利益來"},{"start":10131.896,"end":10156.509,"text":"讓這個這個兒少的自主權特別是在醫療自主權的部分能夠得以被重視什麼適用這個我想這個今年年底前我們會提出一個規劃如果有研議的內容的話是不是兩個月也可以先給我們知道一下我們應該是剛開始在做這個委託研究那我們會繼續追蹤我們在有一定的成果的時候就一定會來請委員指導謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":10159.611,"end":10179.15,"text":"好 謝謝王振興委員發言 接下來請林淑芬委員發言好 現在主席是不是來請我們石部長 又請石部長"},{"start":10184.591,"end":10199.185,"text":"部長在這個千年審預算的時候我已經提到說這個對於校園學生問題的自殺的人次年年攀升"},{"start":10200.505,"end":10216.31,"text":"顯示說學齡、年輕族群的年齡層和高風險對象的自殺防治關懷仍然要有待強化但是我們檢視了你們去年全國自殺防治中心的成果報告的數據來看"},{"start":10217.57,"end":10234.887,"text":"有關於兒童及青少年自殺防治策略建議中有關學齡層自殺死亡及通報數據的分析指出其實這五年來學齡層的自殺通報人次還是在攀升那我們一直是要講說在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":10239.285,"end":10257.405,"text":"你像國小孩子這麼小的小孩子男性與女性在106年開始就有顯著的上升特別是109年起上升幅度更加明顯而且自殺的死亡率在111年攀升到歷年新高"},{"start":10258.871,"end":10278.642,"text":"然後之後稍微有回降 但整體而言 國小學齡的自殺防治仍需要高度的關注那就國中學齡層來看男性女性的通報人次 從106年都呈現上升的趨勢然後到113年已經升到歷年最高"},{"start":10279.462,"end":10298.549,"text":"那在學齡層裡面女性自殺通報的人次這五年不斷的上升在這種狀況裡面男性就稍微比較平穩所以看得出來性別上的差異女性的曲線真的是也很明顯的上升的曲線那男性大概維持一個這個"},{"start":10299.509,"end":10315.602,"text":"平緩的曲線所以這個上升的死亡率在107年就拉升開始拉升到108年就開始超越男性雖然原因很複雜這當然是原因很複雜但我們看到這樣的這個現象"},{"start":10317.643,"end":10336.389,"text":"那國內研究使用具代表性的樣本發現13歲的孩童有5.4%有自殺的行為粗略的換下來仍有相當比例的學生可能沒有進入通報的系統但是他還是存在校園內的"},{"start":10337.969,"end":10366.809,"text":"輔資系統後續的介入輔導或未被發現所以國中校園內的輔資輔導系統的健全還有校外的精神醫療的資源的轉介這一些曾有自殺行為重要的這個統計研究然後大概都應該是還是更嚴重的所以我們他這個研究發現說較長時數的網路使用跟自傷行為的增加也有關"},{"start":10369.09,"end":10394.367,"text":"那现在我们先来讨论一下就是说像国小自杀的主因大部分都是以家庭成员问题学校适应问题同侪相处问题为主了那同侪的问题这些近年来又衍生一种叫做社群关系社群媒体的关系那社群媒体的关系在小孩子这么小的时候其实他还什么都"},{"start":10396.115,"end":10415.147,"text":"沒有很健全心理的或者社會價值的這些教育都還不是很健全的時候他就要面臨到社群同儕裡面的這個壓力所以進一步他們就發現說會導致學童自尊低落 危機然後導致憂鬱 自殺的產生所以這個要仰賴什麼校園內的教師 輔資系統"},{"start":10421.371,"end":10449.56,"text":"然後這個就是要看說能不能成為學生良好發展的場域然後這是很關鍵的所以學校校職員的這個強化的訓練要包含辨識精神疾病提供學生適當的治療或支援減少精神疾病的惡化後續嚴重自殺企圖的發生危險因子的辨識自殺危機的處理或者是包括老師可能要跟這個家長妥善的溝通都是必須要強化的可是"},{"start":10451.321,"end":10453.363,"text":"我們都知道老師真的也很累你叫老師要會教書還要會這麼多的專業的這些能力真的也是很困難那如果說不要每個孩子我們都叫老師去網接住好了我們來看這一些特殊身份"},{"start":10473.078,"end":10488.499,"text":"過去精神病史的這一些孩子那已經是高風險群體了我們就鎖定在高風險群體來看以國小和國中學齡層特殊身份來看而少保護通報的被害人在這三年戰慄"},{"start":10489.72,"end":10509.455,"text":"均為最高然後國外的研究發現兒時稍受虐待的往後對於自殺行為的這個或者是自殺意念的其實是正相關的台灣的健保資料庫研究有發現受虐的孩童在往後罹患精神疾病的風險也比較高在這種狀況裡面針對國小學齡層兒童兒少保護議題的學童"},{"start":10517.541,"end":10541.61,"text":"那後續要持續連接的精神科的資源評估都是防治的重點但現在我們看到就是說中低收入戶和脆弱家庭在這兩年也佔率比較高他在這特殊身份別裡面佔率比較高就是一樣自殺的意念自殺行為提升但是呢大家在"},{"start":10542.47,"end":10567.926,"text":"社群網路裡面有很多焦慮但是如果你是中低收入戶或是脆弱家庭的基於社會文化經濟上的弱勢啊他可能自殺危險的比例風險是更高的那特別是經濟危機經濟危機有可能成為兒童自殺危險因子的惡化的因素"},{"start":10568.726,"end":10596.153,"text":"所以在這種脆弱家庭無論是國小或國中階段自殺通報的人數一直都是近年來位居前三名這是你們的報告指出來的脆弱家庭中低收入戶經濟壓力都是自殺通報人數的前三名那針對這一些人都已經是特殊身份別的兒少了大家都已經鎖定是高風險了"},{"start":10597.353,"end":10605.5,"text":"那我們到底要怎麼樣去採取更具體的防治策略更精準的跨部會 跨體系的防治"},{"start":10606.84,"end":10632.171,"text":"那為什麼這個很重要呢其實我們都很害怕大家都見數不見零或者是整個行政體系會變成瞎子摸象你知道我們辨識出這些風險的來源那你有沒有一套能夠整合教育 社政 衛生 心理衛生串接起來的介入模式那為什麼要講這個因為這問題都很複雜教育端你看到孩子可能是說沒有來上課缺課"},{"start":10634.433,"end":10650.854,"text":"適應不良同儕關係衝突不好那是教育看到的可是社政端他看到的可是這個家庭脆弱照顧壓力然後到醫療端處理的就是說這個孩子送到醫療來他有情緒問題我處理他的精神疾病"},{"start":10651.855,"end":10675.264,"text":"每個部門都看到自己看見的處理自己的屬於自己的權責應該要負責的那部分卻沒有一個整合全貌串接起來這個全面式的介入的模式所以我們擔心說這樣的制度安排對高風險而造而言風險大家都看到了而且大家都只看到自己的"},{"start":10676.024,"end":10701.356,"text":"可是有沒有一個可以串接起來針對這樣的家庭是全面式的關照全面式的這個介入的一個模式呢謝謝委員提到確實在這個全球的報告也是這樣在COVID之後那個Mental Health的問題反映在那個自殺率的上升那台灣也是同樣的問題這也是一種社會不平等"},{"start":10702.396,"end":10727.654,"text":"這個在青少年也看到這個趨勢這個趨勢跟世界各國的趨勢是對啦那我現在講的重點就是說社政看到社政的問題處理社政的問題教育看到教育的問題處理教育的問題醫療看到醫療界需要的提供的服務他就提供他自己的服務可是大家都沒有看到這個串聯起來你可能要處理的可能就不是某一個部門的問題它是全面式的對"},{"start":10732.297,"end":10750.252,"text":"所以我們現在先嘗試的讓這些資訊系統可以串接在一起所以跟委員報告就是我們這個社安網的計畫就是把34個系統先串起來讓它這個資訊流至少可以歸人但是確實還沒有那麼優化"},{"start":10751.213,"end":10767.687,"text":"就是說你串起來到最後你是要判別他的風險因為我們都始終知道預防是最重要的嘛所以在這裡面對反覆出現在各個部門各個統計資料裡面的高風險身分別你要明確的去分級辨識轉型追蹤跨體系協作"},{"start":10771.049,"end":10796.874,"text":"而且當一名兒少同時具有脆弱家庭兒少保護通報校園適應困難或精神醫療他都已經被看見了多重風險的時候那主責要換誰那誰要負責來整合資訊那誰要來判斷要提高處遇的強度還有就是說我們整個全面式的這個處遇到底誰哪一個部門要負責"},{"start":10799.294,"end":10824.448,"text":"跟委員說明因為我們剛剛也提到這個一組折然後共同協多方協力協作對那這個的概念就是說比如說他是從這個翠家進來的那當然他如果是屬於保護個案的那他就是這個保護性社工會組折你們就只處理保護的但是他就要去連結其他因為他就可以看得到他的其他的資訊那也許他是精神個案進來的"},{"start":10825.569,"end":10831.338,"text":"那可能是以這個我們精神這邊的醫療人員為主但是我們意思是說他可能看到萃家的然後看到醫療的這個精神個案的那其實他的狀況可能來自於多重的多重的"},{"start":10841.653,"end":10858.524,"text":"它可能是經濟壓力、那父母的家庭功能的失調的那全面性的要介入的我們意思是說這一些要串接在一起然後看到問題要全面式的接觸它這樣子所以後端的話就會有網絡會議就是在處理這種比較複雜網絡跨部門的會議你們就這種個案"},{"start":10865.508,"end":10875.616,"text":"有這麼多的人手可以這樣子經常去網絡會議討論然後經常工作會議檢討經常整合式的全面性的介入嗎"},{"start":10876.721,"end":10901.642,"text":"跟委員說明大概比較高危機的是每個月會去review對 就是說跨體系支持的機制要把這些新型態的風險一起納入因為我們剛剛講就是說傳統上我們都以為是家庭功能失調然後校園適應不良 精神醫療需求但對脆弱家庭來講的孩子而言他們新時代比如說網路霸凌 社群媒體成癮"},{"start":10902.763,"end":10924.724,"text":"這個很多 真的 複合式的自殺資訊的擴散 新興自殺方法的擴散往往會跟既有的家庭壓力 情緒困擾和求助失靈交互作用 然後當然放大那個風險所以你們現在要進入的是已經到一個網路時代裡面的網路社群媒體的這一些"},{"start":10927.286,"end":10938.977,"text":"現象裡面的負面的作用交織跟傳統的問題交織在一起放大那一些問題那你們其實也都有看到啦"},{"start":10940.922,"end":10964.513,"text":"所以你們的報告也提到網路社群媒體跟自殺的相關智慧型手機 社群媒體的興起那可能引發了自殺的危機其實國外的系統文獻包括網路使用 網路霸凌都跟自殺 自傷的還有憂鬱的增加有關那台灣的研究也是發現網路成癮跟一週精神症狀包括睡眠困難"},{"start":10968.134,"end":10987.838,"text":"長期就失眠了,小孩子就在失眠了然後把焦慮、苦惱、憂鬱、感覺比不上別人以及自殺意念之間形成顯著的相關那這種成癮、霸凌就進一步導致自殺的風險其實不要講小孩,連大人都有失眠問題就想自殺了失眠障礙,那失眠障礙年齡層一直往下掉"},{"start":10991.559,"end":10996.745,"text":"那網路媒體資訊的興起也改變了自殺資訊的傳播方式馬街醫院的團隊對2479位青少年調查研究3%的人曾經在網路上接觸過自殺相關的內容特別是每當新興自殺的方法出現新聞傳播了"},{"start":11013.021,"end":11037.159,"text":"網路媒體的影響更為顯著那台大一個教授張書生他就講在媒體報導某種新興的自殺方法在日本他們就發現網路的搜尋量增加50倍在英國增加9倍然後還有網站上相約自殺這種東西就是這就是真的是進一步的模仿大家都一直模仿那"},{"start":11038.581,"end":11068.281,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們也看到你們都看到了你們的報告就全國自殺防治中心成果報告你們都有寫到就是說關於網路社群媒體跟自殺風險的文字年年都有講年年都有報告你們也都看到了但是我們要問的是說可是他還是不斷的在攀升自殺的次數自殺的人數自殺的年齡層下降自殺的人數上升"},{"start":11069.081,"end":11096.4,"text":"你們都看到了可是他還是問題越來越嚴重所以連續每年你們都這樣警訊可是我們看不到你的報告裡面相應的政策的升級也沒有看到更具體的監測介入和防治的機制所以在這裡我們如果你們都知道了我們要問的就不是研究的結論而是要問你們說你們我們國家政府端出來的相對應的政策到底是什麼因為這種網路風險跟傳統的校園"},{"start":11098.661,"end":11116.428,"text":"家庭的風險重疊在一起會擴大那它具有擴散快模仿性高接觸無國界隱蔽性強的特色那在學校裡面社群平台匿名論壇影音平台通訊群組大量的散發接觸"},{"start":11117.688,"end":11143.361,"text":"在這種狀況裡面政府也應該要有新的治理的工具而不是你在報告裡面把這一些現象用舊的文字重複一遍再重複一遍所以呢台灣公共衛生雜誌2023年台灣青少年自殺率上升的相關因素與預防對策的啟發有講到這個青少年因為特定網路內容或使用方式而增加心理困擾與自殺風險"},{"start":11145.322,"end":11159.578,"text":"然後再大概指出青少年在網路上閱讀自殺相關資訊習得的學習到的自殺的方法或模仿的效應特別是名人自殺或是網路上報導的自殺的情節一直在模仿"},{"start":11160.339,"end":11178.369,"text":"所以英國研究自殺死亡的青少年裡面在死亡以前他們13%都有搜尋自殺的方法的資訊10%在網路都發表想要自殺那台灣大概還沒有看到這一方面的數據那所以台灣還有一個現象是15到24歲輟學的"},{"start":11181.711,"end":11209.361,"text":"15到24歲學齡層但錯學的自殺的風險跟相關因素也即待研究因為這些人數可能更在於學齡層在學的這個比例所以我們從這些資訊就是說部長網路風險的行為監測還有錯學學生族群的自殺風險研究還有後續支持的資源的建置我們不能夠再這樣子"},{"start":11210.521,"end":11235.848,"text":"只是宣導只是提醒其實風險辨識早期通報校園應變合作平台合作轉介支持這一些都一連串的是要跨部會的我們不想要看到你告訴我有這種風險我們想要看到的是你的政策是升級是upgrade而且是與時俱進的而且是知道重點你已經不能是傳統式的那些風險辨識了"},{"start":11239.383,"end":11254.128,"text":"跟委員說明確實這個社群媒體就如同您剛剛提到的越來越多的報告影響到青少年的身心健康還有他的學習能力跟他的社交那相對的也會影響剛剛說到的自殺風險"},{"start":11257.449,"end":11286.041,"text":"所以我們現在大概幾個方法我們能做的就是第一個我們有提供這個心理諮商我們從15歲就是第一個那第二個我們有iWIN大概協助說他申訴了我們就趕快讓他下架處分這個也是做很久我們講的是社群網路上的問題那第三個我們也跟速發部合作透過那個AI巡查然後即時反應給我們然後我們判斷之後就讓他遮蔽或下架大概"},{"start":11286.681,"end":11314.09,"text":"有這幾個做法上在進行那也跟教育部也在合作教育部在校園裡面呢他也會限制使用被載學的 載學的他的自殺風險可能很高其實複合式的包括經濟壓力的經濟壓力再加上網路被霸凌的因為社會文化經濟弱勢在網路上更容易被嘲笑在這種同儕團體之間被嘲笑壓力更大 想死的"},{"start":11316.382,"end":11345.076,"text":"對 那這個我們也會跟教育部大家來合作強化這個對於這個高脆弱家庭跟這個其實你們 我都跟你們說出來都跟以前一樣啊對啊我們繼續來研究看還有什麼現在其他有辦法再做或者是其他的做法上難道沒有可以更精進的更可以有效的防治的嗎"},{"start":11347.359,"end":11371.688,"text":"我們來繼續研究啦好啦小孩子我們看到小孩子自殺的比例越來越高人數越來越多真的覺得很捨不得而且不應該啦因為他們還那麼小就想要死剛出生就想要死這件事情就是社會的責任國家的責任了啦好謝謝林淑雯委員發言接下來請賴世寶委員發言"},{"start":11387.121,"end":11391.903,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請外務部的史部長有請史部長"},{"start":11395.92,"end":11410.735,"text":"賴議員好賴副總理好我想大概前面的我已經問了啦我還是在問你關心一下那個馬鈴薯啊這個主要他院長說要每一顆都檢驗喔你說不可能對不對"},{"start":11412.036,"end":11438.723,"text":"你做不到你說就是2%到10%到底現在是怎麼樣就是邊境管理我還問了早上我都才回去了邊境管理也沒有這麼多人你知道一年要進來大概5億顆的馬鈴薯如果每一顆都檢驗它總共就100個人海關檢驗的就100個人100個人它也沒有一個專屬說專門來驗馬鈴薯也沒有大家混起來一起用"},{"start":11439.523,"end":11458.475,"text":"所以整個情況不可能嘛 對不對你這個情況要不要講一下跟委員說明就是我們這個食藥署在邊境它是抽驗的概念啦抽驗就是說如果抽到這個貨櫃然後他就會挑幾顆然後就去做這個檢驗包含這個龍葵檢驗這個就會驗你檢驗什麼項目包含這個重金屬"},{"start":11464.799,"end":11485.07,"text":"農藥殘留包含這個配糖體那裡面就包含這個龍葵鹼就是所謂的茄鹼如果驗出來有超標任何一個地方超標我們是這個貨櫃整個貨櫃就退就退或銷毀所以不需要一顆一顆去驗不需要一顆一顆整個就退了你就打臉著龍派不是"},{"start":11485.61,"end":11515.079,"text":"那個院長講的應該是講因為我們是靠科學檢驗啦但是另外一塊是檢疫不是 另外一個是檢疫啦農業部他們是那個防疫署防檢署他們是做那個檢疫檢疫他就會去看外觀有沒有病毒害啊所以你的是邊境管理我們就是在做邊境的檢驗查驗農業部也是邊境管理農業部也做邊境他也做邊境管理啊邊境是有兩個部會對啊 你們差別在哪裡啊"},{"start":11515.96,"end":11535.14,"text":"我們是根據的是食品衛生他們是在做這個檢疫檢疫就包含有沒有植物病蟲害包含剛剛說的所以不管是農業部或者是衛福部的邊境管理派的人在那裡基本上做不到除科檢驗就這個意思"},{"start":11537.341,"end":11561.244,"text":"都是抽菸啦 都是抽菸只是說他在那個房間署的話他就是就抽掉嘛第二個問題今天談到比較特殊小孩子因為我前沒有多久去參加一個算是莊角吧只是他的女兒年紀輕輕就收了"},{"start":11562.267,"end":11582.209,"text":"很難過那個整個就很難過就是年輕人的自殺率年輕人只有15歲到24歲在台灣這個族群這個年齡層他的死因占第二位而且年輕人的自殺的死亡率高於全球的平均比全球高出兩成了"},{"start":11583.27,"end":11606.315,"text":"這一部分特別對特殊的我不知道你對於特殊的小孩子的group你了解多少但應該趙立強你應該很了解因為我們在選舉都知道我參加過很多很多這種有非常特殊的有這個玻璃娃娃有什麼的就類似這樣很特殊的這個如果你把規律人數有多少人"},{"start":11609.967,"end":11629.9,"text":"因為我們現在需要特殊教育的特殊教育喔對特殊教育就比較不是我們我們的那個長管這個是教育部特殊教育的不過如果以我們的數字就是脆弱家庭大概差不多是兩萬戶左右啦那你照顧怎麼照顧"},{"start":11631.584,"end":11644.376,"text":"我們如果有列入到我們的脆弱家庭的話呢那當然就有社工會去定期的關懷啦了解協助資源的這個串接的"},{"start":11648.371,"end":11675.787,"text":"經費這個比較不好算因為這個有整塊的還有包含中低收入戶低收入戶還有這個福利家庭那講一下好不好經費那個有沒有社安網到118年到剛委員報告社安網115到119115到118年5年的總經費目前是編列800多億不是你社安網全部就真的這一塊這一小塊有沒有通緝的"},{"start":11677.237,"end":11697.602,"text":"這個可能我們需要再我們算一下之後需要去照顧好不好需要特別去照顧年輕的這一塊其實很多面臨到很多的不管什麼原因家裡的原因數字比較低或者其他什麼原因whatever的原因它就變成一個很特殊的group不管多少人都是很值得"},{"start":11698.462,"end":11712.321,"text":"我們相關的攤位 衛護部責無旁貸要特別去照顧我覺得經費可以多便宜一點好 最後一個東西我看沒有Art的這個藥品跟衣材還要被課高關稅嗎 是這樣子嗎"},{"start":11715.578,"end":11738.337,"text":"目前新的我們了解的這個關稅是這個美國是針對那個專利要及其原料要課關稅其餘的不是在專利期或學名要和他的其他的原料要都是零關稅對啊可是他這裡前二三號他要專利要要課百分之百的重稅台灣沒有豁免喔"},{"start":11738.917,"end":11759.639,"text":"但是因為台灣現在是這樣我們真正專利藥輸到美國的只有一個藥我們其他都是學名藥跟原料藥那些都是免關稅這一個專利藥在美國也打算設廠了所以它也可以豁免所以對我們來講是沒有影響抗癌跟寒病的新藥會不會漲價這個東西"},{"start":11762.305,"end":11770.15,"text":"這個我們再觀察啦因為這是全球要價的我們有評估我們再提供給委員參考謝謝賴思寶委員發言接下來請盧憲義召委發言謝謝主席主席有請部長有請石部長"},{"start":11793.083,"end":11815.523,"text":"部長今天講社工的問題那我們都知道其實社工跟醫師一樣很像都是處在高壓的狀況之下在工作而且他們的流動率居高不下 量能嚴重失衡而且風險確實是因為他的專業升級跟制度授權未能跟上現在很像變成很棘手的問題那我想請問一下現在"},{"start":11816.184,"end":11834.154,"text":"我們現在的運用人力大概就是大概87%可是現在的我們的預算是從400多億增加近一倍或超過一倍819.6億元那會不會沒有了解原鄉偏鄉高流動力縣市的社工缺額是否高於平均"},{"start":11834.794,"end":11846.019,"text":"再來當量案超載的時候有沒有啟動降載增派夜間緊急支持跟交通加成的機制那現在的第一線社工到底撐得住撐不住"},{"start":11848.747,"end":11871.929,"text":"我們再來特別統計一下因為我們現有的我手邊的資料是沒有特別對這個原鄉的人力社工人力做評估不知道部長4月3號你有沒有看到一個新聞就是台東的原家中心他們就是有到縣府抗議就是可能因為整併的問題造成他們的工作權的喪失你有沒有關心到這個問題"},{"start":11873.271,"end":11893.765,"text":"因為這個計畫主要是由那個園民會來做補助啦那因為我們知道過去20多年來最珍貴的價值它是以部落為基礎的初級預防跟文化陪伴可是它就是要納入社安網結果它就是要被迫直接去承接了高複雜高風險的脆弱家庭的處遇甚至要"},{"start":11894.705,"end":11917.395,"text":"使用我們現在主流跟缺乏我們所謂的缺乏敏感度的脆弱家庭指標來評估族人也就是說可能要把原家中心的這個工作跟現在主流社會的這個社工變成併在一起就變成說他們原本的這個他們的獨特性就不見了可能是因為經費的關係就會要把我們這個單位合併起來可是會造成說"},{"start":11918.996,"end":11942.696,"text":"可能就是我們的工作人員可能就不太了解原住民地區的屬性所以我就覺得實務上有幾個面向請衛福部去參考一下現在督導跟社工公私分離 相隔兩地如何提供及時的救命支持是因為我們原住民地區你都知道有一個鄉甚至是都比平地縣還要大比如說我們說的新義鄉它就比彰化縣還大"},{"start":11943.837,"end":11965.268,"text":"那我就說你一個督導就在縣政府好了然後我們我們的那個社工是在部落他們其實是雖然是督導可是他們其實沒有辦法常常見面他要怎麼去分攤他那個心理壓力或者說他面對這些緊急處置的時候有沒有一個直接的幫忙所以我覺得這個部分可能要去參考第二個就是專業升級的落差這些我們部落的"},{"start":11966.208,"end":11986.063,"text":"原家中心本來是做預防工作可是他現在直接跟三網接軌的時候他跟社福中心的培訓是不是有沒有完整性因為他可能沒有到達這樣專業的判斷標準所以是不是這個權責原政不對等的時候然後如果系統失靈然後他們要去承接這個風險"},{"start":11988.305,"end":11998.979,"text":"全部轉嫁給基層這樣的對我們原家中心或者基層的社工也是面對這樣的同樣的一個心理壓力我是覺得是不是應該找原民會來針對這個原家中心做一個通盤的檢討因為現在台東這個原家中心是15個鄉鎮"},{"start":12006.483,"end":12025.972,"text":"跟委員說明據我們了解當然這個原家中心就是主要是原住民背景的社工來服務原住民主地區這個我們是很支持那至於說人民會遇到什麼樣的狀況對這個原家中心有什麼調整我們再來細部的了解之後"},{"start":12026.172,"end":12045.038,"text":"我一個建議啦就是希望對於原子彈中心的督導能夠建置回歸中心內部以及高風險的案件的那個銜接的標準我覺得為何不應該在跟原子彈能不能在近期之內做個具體的修正檢討啦我的意思是這樣讓我知道好"},{"start":12045.518,"end":12068.032,"text":"好 我們再來瞭解 我找同仁跟原民會瞭解第三個問題就是現在的原家中心和民間團體拼的這些高風險社工 因為缺乏公權力他無法順利協調我們教育 醫療 警政 護政 就業等機關導致高風險預防跟介入的效果有限今天不管是原家中心還是縣府的社會處我們的委外的民間團體"},{"start":12069.113,"end":12084.512,"text":"他實際上承接脆弱家庭高風險家庭兒少保護邊緣個案其實中央沒有給一致的專業標準跟決策社權跟法律的風險所以我覺得他們是不是處在一個他們完全不太明白他們自己的工作風險的這個樣態裡面好"},{"start":12088.55,"end":12108.032,"text":"所以我希望衛福部能夠就委外工作哪些是可以做高風險的判斷這些人受過什麼樣的訓練他的權限在哪裡然後哪些風險是必須是靠個人來自己扛哪些問題是可以有專業我覺得這些問題都是一而再再而三要去面對的問題要去盤點他們"},{"start":12109.574,"end":12123.989,"text":"是好第四個就是我們常常看到就是我們的報告會看到跨體系協作轉弦機制公安會議這些名詞可是我想說就第一線社工或脆弱家庭而已這些"},{"start":12124.89,"end":12141.466,"text":"這代表了到底實際的支持跟共同承擔是有代表什麼樣的意義嗎還是在案件在不同的單位之間不斷的轉手所以我覺得這個互轉機制原理會有說會說共同方式可是我是不是覺得那個信任跟資訊在轉的那一刻"},{"start":12142.687,"end":12164.766,"text":"這些就會不見我的意思就是說是不是那個就是會一個很像是填完表單就會結案這種層層轉手的那種感覺很像就是到了一個地方就很像就不關他的事我的意思是這樣會不會有這種只是轉手給別的單位來做其實卻沒有相對的一個所謂的信任或什麼"},{"start":12166.936,"end":12190.719,"text":"跟委員說明我們現在即使是轉手這個前一手還是要有一定的追蹤到他確認這個新的接手單位或者是這個社工呢已經上手了所以這中間會有一個銜接啦也不會說因為轉手之後就立刻就不管了應該是不會要有一個兩邊的那個overlapping"},{"start":12190.759,"end":12206.479,"text":"我希望有一個轉案的穩定率是不是30天90天是不是真正的穩定的比例有多少那漏接的那個重複率啊比如說再通報率再受虐率或者是重複看案例有多高這些部分我覺得應該是還是要有數據讓大家知道"},{"start":12207.04,"end":12235.524,"text":"那最後一個就是昨天有超過1600名社工包圍行政院這個部分大概部長應該也有掌握不過我想知道想真正要提出來就是說他們真正恐懼的是這個只要一出事沒有強制調查權的社工是不是隨時都會被法官就是扣上保證你這個帽子然後再被判刑你覺得他們這樣面對這樣的一個基層焦慮你們的對策是什麼立場是什麼"},{"start":12236.004,"end":12249.683,"text":"好 當然第一個就是這次大家爭議多的就是這個所謂的保證人地位啦那這個我們已經在明天下午會邀請相關的司法法律的大家來討論把這個釐清一下"},{"start":12254.228,"end":12276.517,"text":"至於權責上面我們也會再來協助今天下午有先跟社工團體們大家來坐談來瞭解他們面臨到的困境我們一定做最大的後盾跟權力的協助其實他們有一個訴求是業務責任保險這個部分的規劃是不是也有在這次的考量裡面"},{"start":12277.597,"end":12304.948,"text":"我們目前當然有團保啦這主要是對於人身保險的部分那至於責任這個業務責任保險的部分我們再來研究看看好最後就是那個剛才的原家中心因為它這樣子一個持續的發展會可能會剝奪部分的原住民的工作權所以我希望部長能夠多多的去了解這個問題好嗎好那個原家中心我來了解"},{"start":12306.052,"end":12311.799,"text":"好 謝謝盧縣英委員盧縣英召委的發言 接下來我們請郭玉琴委員發言好 謝謝主席 有請部長有請石部長"},{"start":12325.457,"end":12341.084,"text":"部長早安我想在進入這個社會安全網的這個主題之前我先再來問一下毛小孩的家庭毛小孩的氏族毛小孩的氏族過來7月1號原本要上路的這個動物這個用藥的一個新制確定已經先註銷了"},{"start":12341.804,"end":12364.687,"text":"但是現在其實一線的獸醫師其實我們又陸陸續續又接到他們其實在用藥的部分藥廠已經開始可以決定他們要不要自行提供藥物也就是說他們即將有一些藥物是有可能會被供應鏈給斷鏈了那這也是又再次的引起大家的一個恐慌那我想這個部長請教兩件事情"},{"start":12365.908,"end":12382.634,"text":"第一就是食藥署能不能夠明確的表態人用的藥品依法可以穩定供應給受醫師使用避免這個藥廠因為有一些疑慮而中斷而限縮這是第一個問題我們的這個食藥署是不是可以明確的表態"},{"start":12383.294,"end":12412.794,"text":"人用的部分能不能夠穩定提供給獸醫師好我已經重複兩次問題了好第二個問題是政府到底有沒有機制可以介入或者是確保我們的供應是不會斷鏈的那麼在這個部分不要再跟我講說又要回到所謂的緊急用藥的平台緊急用藥的平台我的毛小孩已經躺在醫院正在急救當中我等到緊急用藥平台要獸醫師這邊還要去所有的這個申請的一個程序大概"},{"start":12413.414,"end":12425.493,"text":"整個程序完畢之後是兩到三週請問我的毛孩子在急診台上可以等嗎我兩天可能都等不下去了我要等兩到三週不要再跟我講說緊急用藥平台可以來申請"},{"start":12429.038,"end":12444.151,"text":"請我們的食藥署是不是可以答應請衛福部長可不可以承諾我們把這個門給打開不然其實我們空有所謂的動物用藥的這樣子的一個藥證但是目前為止如果是"},{"start":12445.532,"end":12462.561,"text":"這個市場比較小嘛上次我有提過嘛動物用藥的市場是比較小的所以在藥商限縮的狀況之下有一些是可以從人用的這個部分我又要卡進來一個這樣子奇怪的一個角色請問我的寵物要怎麼等醫療的條件跟時間怎麼辦"},{"start":12464.942,"end":12482.836,"text":"跟委員說明當然動物用藥是由農業部管人藥的部分我們已經重申了就是已經可以直接由藥商來供應給獸醫師使用我們已經那個函都發出去但是現在我們再看一下下一頁這個是昨天我們才收到的"},{"start":12483.436,"end":12507.308,"text":"已經有獸醫師他們看到藥商的回應有幾個品項已經從人用的替代藥品拿掉了也就是說這些回歸到所謂的動物用藥的部分但我剛剛講了動物用藥因為市場小所以有可能會被限縮用不到的時候我就需要人藥來支援但是人藥的支援現在卡在說那我們就回到所謂的用"},{"start":12508.028,"end":12535.547,"text":"緊急用藥的平台來做申請申請下來兩到三個禮拜請問這個空窗期誰要來誰要來負責跟委員說明這個人藥也是一樣的管理邏輯就是說如果你有藥證的那我們就不會專案進口那這個動物用藥也是一樣如果動物用藥有的除非他缺貨我們人藥才給不然就沒有人要去申請動物用藥那我再請教一下這個部長"},{"start":12537.008,"end":12551.777,"text":"我們可不可以明確的表態人用的藥品可以穩定供應給受益師來做使用因為這些他寫的這些品項過去這些書籍其實是正常他可以使用的但是因為現在我們的法規不夠明確啊"},{"start":12552.757,"end":12573.094,"text":"所以現在變成他們也會限縮啊我有可能會拿不到藥啊那請問我的醫療一限我該怎麼處理這樣子的一個緊急狀況好跟委員說明這個點滴的部分我們同仁已經去了解了以動物用藥的這個點滴的業者他說他可以穩定供藥沒有問題確定對好所以這個緊急的公告我們是"},{"start":12573.875,"end":12586.584,"text":"包含這個台育寄生他們都現在已經確定可以供藥他都是可以供藥的那這個部分我們所有的這個韓式的部分是不是今天就可以提供出來韓式已經發了已經發了嗎4月17號我們就發了但是我要請教一下部長"},{"start":12591.187,"end":12610.916,"text":"以後這樣子的問題三天兩頭就會發生一次三天兩頭就會發生一次我們要不要直接用一個方法就可以解決負面表列用負面表列的方式是不是就可以解決這種根本的問題不然我收到的陳情你們收到的陳情還有我們這邊要問你們幫忙我們一線的動物醫師來做轉達我相信會反不勝反啦負面表列要不要考慮這個都可以來討論啦"},{"start":12621.021,"end":12640.53,"text":"但是負面表列的必須要肯慎到的就是說已經有動物藥的部分那基本上人要就不要去不然的話以後都完全沒有動物藥了今天時間非常的有限下午2點我會邀集很多的動物醫師 獸醫師一線的獸醫師他們現在面臨的處境我會在"},{"start":12644.932,"end":12663.845,"text":"我們的這個經濟委員會現在的這個紅樓的一樓我們會開一個座談會我歡迎衛福部歡迎食藥署可以到場聆聽現場的困境可以嗎好好不好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝郭昱請委員發言接下來請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席我們請部長"},{"start":12675.543,"end":12696.402,"text":"有氣勢 副長歡迎 您好部長好 部長在這個4月份4月2號是社工日嘛那我們彰化這邊也有舉辦這個社工的表揚大會那在會場上面其實社工也表達他們的工作其實這個面對的第一線"},{"start":12697.403,"end":12712.702,"text":"他們很多都是這個協助一些弱勢族群那在這個凱凱案的這個審判一審宣判就是說負責個案訪視的這個社工一過失致死判處有期徒刑兩年"},{"start":12713.423,"end":12729.558,"text":"那這個判刑之後其實很多社工會覺得他們在這個社會安全網的其中一個他們要面對第一線那如果是這樣子的話其實他們承受的非常大的壓力我想請教部長就是說"},{"start":12732.68,"end":12758.157,"text":"這個這個宣判之後其實未來有可能社工會有一個出走潮其實社工的工作壓力面對的壓力非常大再來就是說他其實薪資也不高那面對這樣的一個狀況部長你怎麼樣來這個止血就是說這個宣判下去其實社工他們私底下也會講就是說這個工作確實這個高壓"},{"start":12761.419,"end":12777.087,"text":"然後薪資也不是那麼好所以他們出走之後那未來這些弱勢族群或者是社會安全網的其中一員那你要怎麼樣來補足或者是說怎麼樣讓社工的工作環境能夠好一點"},{"start":12778.066,"end":12805.078,"text":"好 那跟委員說明當然在這個事件發生我們是覺得非常的遺憾那我們也一再的表達我們會做社工的後盾所以在這個判決下來之後那麼大家比較有爭議的這個保證人地位這件事情那麼我們也在明天下午會邀請法界大家來討論 討論出一個方式那麼我們來持續的跟法界溝通"},{"start":12806.098,"end":12823.433,"text":"那第二個呢 那還是要回到如果是以這個案子來講他是在收租養的過程當中那麼就由社工去扛責了那我們在這個事件之後也改變了那麼一定在收租養的過程當中地方政府要扮演一定的角色不要讓社工獨自面對"},{"start":12824.594,"end":12843.056,"text":"那第三個當然對於社工的人力的補充還有這個薪資津貼那麼這些我們也會持續的來改善那包含我們在社安網2.0裡面那麼也預計在持續的去螺製更多的社工的人員"},{"start":12843.757,"end":12858.238,"text":"那當然也要搭配這個資訊系統的整合那麼包含一些AI的協助讓他的工作負荷也能夠得到一些緩解所以這些我們都在努力的在做"},{"start":12859.019,"end":12863.5,"text":"其實社工這個工作需要有很大的勇氣跟熱情其實我們看到就是說彰化這邊的接受表揚的這些社工其實他們在這個社工的這個工作有的就是時間都已經很長那就是有那個熱情才有辦法做這麼久"},{"start":12877.745,"end":12894.919,"text":"所以我覺得說衛福部應該是要成為社工的一個最好的一個後盾那個未來怎麼樣讓他們的工作這個環境能夠更好我覺得應該是衛福部這邊應該要做的其實社工的工作很多時候跟醫護人員差不多"},{"start":12895.679,"end":12914.325,"text":"他面對的這個個案的狀況其實有時候差異很大然後也有很多的不預期性那甚至有時候還有急迫性要處理像保護性社工經常是晚上就可能也要臨時出來處理所以他的這個工作高壓然後風險也不低"},{"start":12914.785,"end":12941.2,"text":"所以我覺得應該要有不同的思維那我們絕對是做社工的後盾那其實我們看到這個就是說社工跟保姆那社工跟保姆之間其實也不是說這個監督或者是被監督的這樣一個關係其實應該是一個這個協助跟合作的一個關係所以其實我看到"},{"start":12943.341,"end":12959.93,"text":"這個社工被判刑其實我覺得說一個社工他如果說一個月才去訪視一次那如果保姆有意要隱瞞的話其實社工其實也很難去看出來所以剛剛部長有特別提到可能就是有一些協助可能要有一些"},{"start":12960.951,"end":12988.557,"text":"其他的一個協助對社工來講可能我是覺得說還要有額外的其他的一個協助才會讓這個社工才不會因為未來的其他的事件然後造成社工一個很大的一個負擔對就是當然我們盡量讓這個制度體系做得更好來接觸每一個孩子但是對於執行者這個社工而言那麼如果結果"},{"start":12989.897,"end":13006.215,"text":"不如預期那我們也需要回頭來看看這個注意義務啦並不是說不好就絕對是有過失他還是要回頭來看看他的注意義務以及他的專業材料這個其實跟我們這個醫事人員的這些專業其實是很類似的"},{"start":13009.558,"end":13033.888,"text":"當然就是說有一些可能需要去檢討的部分那需要檢討需要改進那當然就是剛剛講的可能縣市政府這邊也許還有其他的督導那是不是也要給其他在第一線的人可能要如果說有一些疏忽可能在第一線在座其實他也許沒有發現那後面的督導可能也要給他一些協助"},{"start":13035.869,"end":13053.728,"text":"這個是跟起始理論一樣常常都是很多的環節上出了問題才會看到最後這個結果所以我們來做一些制度或系統上的改善那部長剛剛也有委員特別問到就是說社工昨天有到行政院遞交陳情書"},{"start":13054.969,"end":13070.125,"text":"那像這樣子的話其中有一部分就是說這個訴求社工非社安網執行者不是制度漏接唯一承擔者那像這樣子的話就是說我們部長對於社工的這個訴求你的回應是怎樣"},{"start":13070.806,"end":13096.228,"text":"對 就跟我剛剛所提到的這個就是像那個乳酪理論一樣啦一個看到最後的這個結果當然很不幸可是中間是有很多環節上沒有接住所以我們才會在這個事件之後呢做了一些改善改變包含這個資訊的串流啦那麼包含這個制度上這個地方政府應該扮演的角色要把它進來"},{"start":13097.609,"end":13125.208,"text":"那這些都是其實都是從這個事件之後我們做的一些改善所以我們就一件一件的來做這樣的我是覺得說針對這個制度可能有時候也是要做一個通盤的檢討是的不好的部分當然就是要去做一些改善那剛剛部長也有特別提到就是說社工的這個部分整個這個工作的這個環境然後職業的環境職業的這個安全的部分其實我們也要一併去考慮"},{"start":13127.709,"end":13141.053,"text":"其實我會覺得說社工的這個工作真的確實因為他們第一線面對的可能都是我們社會當中的一些比較弱勢的族群那有時候他們在訪視的時候"},{"start":13143.575,"end":13168.03,"text":"這些族群他們訪視的時候可能又會把一些這個壓力或者是他訴說的一個狀況就是社工了解之後其實社工的壓力也是很大因為他聽到可能有一些就是負面的負面的情緒所以社工其實他的壓力也非常的大那我也希望就是說這個我們部裡面針對社工的這個職業安全或者是"},{"start":13170.171,"end":13182.706,"text":"也許社工他搞不好自己也需要心理諮商我覺得其實我會碰到很多譬如說我們家福的一些社工其實他們到第一線去訪視之後"},{"start":13185.269,"end":13204.269,"text":"社工他們會講說這個家庭的狀況那有時候如果社工本身心理狀況不是那麼堅強的話其實他的情緒也是會有一些起伏所以我們也希望一方面就是讓社工有一個安全的這個職業環境那另外就是說社工的心理"},{"start":13204.93,"end":13232.052,"text":"心理狀況其實我覺得我們也要去注意那讓更多人願意投入社工的這個工作要不然其實我覺得這個判刑出來之後其實很多人會覺得說那我就去隨便找一個工作他的這個工作環境也許還比社工好那薪水也許也會比社工還高所以我覺得這方面也是我們這個部裡面未來要去注意的"},{"start":13232.892,"end":13257.469,"text":"我們來強化那個對社工的那個心理支持的部分我們來強化好那這個工作是這個整個工作環境是最重要的如果說社工有這個熱情有這個熱心有這個熱情投入那如果整個環境對他是不利的話其實我覺得那個未來社工的出走潮應該是會一波接著一波"},{"start":13258.55,"end":13283.076,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝我們黃秀芳委員發言跟委員會報告我們今天下午繼續開會待全數委員詢答完畢後再行休息現在可以把便當發下去一邊用餐那也請在下方的委員們可能要注意到聲音因為會影響到人家的質詢那接下來我們請范雲委員發言"},{"start":13289.385,"end":13313.439,"text":"謝謝昭緯 有請部長有請石部長方委員好剛剛黃秀芳委員有關心到社工到行政院抗議的事情那我同時也是想要呼籲衛福部一定要關注第一線社工的這個非常嚴重的焦慮因為國家接住社工 社工才能接住個案"},{"start":13314.58,"end":13332.879,"text":"好那謝謝部長認同那這個部分我們之後再來我們非常支持所以今天下午我們會有先第一波跟社工的這個對話那後續我們也如果這個因為大家工作的關係或距離的關係沒辦法來我們也會考慮到分區去做一些座談"},{"start":13333.559,"end":13356.004,"text":"我想如果能夠分區座談那就是最好的今天我是針對狼醫的議題想再來質詢衛福部因為我想部長應該非常的清楚近年狼醫事件不斷的發生以下這邊我給大家看的這三個新聞其中第一個陳情案是我處理的後來已經法院判決確定"},{"start":13357.384,"end":13384.676,"text":"那這三個新聞都是發生在同一所醫院就是台大醫院然後都是發生在同一個婦產科2023到2025兩年內三個很大的案子而且這三個案子呢都不是只是性騷擾是性侵跟猥褻其中還有一對多我想部長您應該可以同意非常嚴重的問題吧"},{"start":13385.396,"end":13412.83,"text":"對 這個我也是覺得很汗顏啦因為我也來自這一家醫院那麼我們的教育啦那特別是在這個性別教育上我們確實需要在強化那麼近期這個新任的余院長他也非常的積極的認識那麼也推出了這個系列的這個改革的措施那我想這個應該有所改善"},{"start":13413.43,"end":13429.875,"text":"那很高興部長同意就是說教育的部分要強化然後台大醫院的新院長有這個認知那我現在想問的是台大醫院上面就是衛福部嘛對不對那衛福部該做的事情到底有沒有做好啊"},{"start":13430.635,"end":13451.241,"text":"那回來看就是剛剛相關的醫師就是因為媒體的關注那有得到相關的懲戒那我們看一下醫師法第25條一副懲戒第二條一定要判刑確定那可是大家知道在台灣要判刑確定要很多年"},{"start":13452.122,"end":13470.945,"text":"像剛剛那麼嚴重的事情你應該會認同只要揭露之後他不用等到判刑確定要暫時就不能夠執業吧最近的案子我們都是先處理就是說按照譬如說他是按照性供法或者是性騷法等等的"},{"start":13471.405,"end":13492.346,"text":"那麼都會先暫停他的臨床業務都會要求衛生局去先暫停在調查期間因為他還是需要調查啦不是馬上因為剛剛提到判刑是很久的但是我們還是有行政調查所以就會要求這個衛生局去做行政調查在調查的期間呢先暫停他的臨床業務"},{"start":13493.547,"end":13516.903,"text":"那因為時間有限我是要跟部長講這個在我們教育體系我是來自教育文化委員會我們已經現在處理到修教師法因為它一旦有權勢關係的教師進入調查的時候為了保障學生就必須暫時不能教那當然後來調查結果確定之後那就教師公會主張說要緩緩他應有的薪資這當然是的還有名譽對不對"},{"start":13521.826,"end":13547.913,"text":"那我們已經處理到這麼細緻了可是你看這個法條今天我們看到的很多的案子其實在這個過程中就是所謂的懲戒機構就是地方政府的這些委員會完全不知情那因為時間的緣故我要來跟您講以這個是我辦公室畫出來的醫師法的流程你會看到就是這裡面雖然好像對我講啟動懲戒"},{"start":13550.233,"end":13574.018,"text":"可是如何啟動懲戒是誰發起處理的時效懲戒標準完全沒有在醫師法中有詳細的規範今天是我第三次針對醫師懲戒機制質詢很遺憾前面兩次都不是您前面我記得有邱部長然後有次長今天是第三次我都是針對醫師懲戒機制"},{"start":13576.278,"end":13580.106,"text":"可是衛福部回給我的是什麼這是衛福部回給我的文他跟我講有資訊公開"},{"start":13582.441,"end":13607.891,"text":"部長這個我覺得這一個事情要質詢到三次而且非常的遺憾的是去年5月21號第一次質詢都快一年了欸您剛剛講認同的東西那惠福部是為什麼都沒有再聽我質詢嗎明明部長跟次長都口口聲聲答應的是我還是拿到一個雞同鴨講的公文"},{"start":13608.291,"end":13624.287,"text":"那讓我檢討是不是我質詢不夠兇所以沒有得到合理的對待不曉得應該不是吧不是不是不是這個我會來檢討好看看那因為不是您所以我今天就尊重您會處理好那我要講的事情是"},{"start":13626.988,"end":13652.135,"text":"這個資訊專區你們處理了可是我剛講的完全沒有處理這件事情監察院在調查了在我質詢後今年1月監察院一樣講你們一失準確法制欠缺跨機關通報及橫向聯繫所以地方衛生主管機關無從支息也未能及時開啟甚至要等到媒體報導那今天台大醫院有媒體報導然後最近就是還有這個"},{"start":13652.875,"end":13679.831,"text":"今年二月又發生一個很嚴重在新北而且是因為台南出事了然後在講兒少性影像才發現裡面有婦產科醫師在網路上已經一直在分享就是性私密影像兒少性私密影像是他從業來的長達九年喔那所以我想這是上新聞的你們有看過這邊BBC的報導吧已經上BBC了我的婦產科醫生是性罪犯"},{"start":13681.032,"end":13705.49,"text":"臺灣醫師懲戒制度為何引發質疑您有沒有看到這個今年4月17號的報導那個部長有看嗎這個我沒有看到那請您去看一下因為裡面也有訪問您那您有談到針對剛剛那個新北的個案您非常的明快要求地方衛生局一個月內調查然後不需要等待司法判決那我想請您回去看這篇報導"},{"start":13706.491,"end":13733.035,"text":"他又引用您的話我講了很多制度的建議我之前質詢都講過所以不能只是個案那您個案名塊很好這是上新聞的是不是制度真的好好修不管是懲戒辦法或者是醫師法好不好不要讓大家覺得衛福部是站在醫師尤其是男醫師的角度在看事情可以答應我嗎因為主席已經站起來了對 可是要注意時間好 沒問題我一定來看這一篇報導"},{"start":13733.655,"end":13744.745,"text":"那多久之內可以給我一個報告不會再是雞同鴨講的報告一個月內一個月內好謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝范委員的發言接下來請楊瓊英委員發言謝謝主席楊瓊發言要請部長有請石部長"},{"start":13760.046,"end":13772.539,"text":"在你們今天的報告書當中這個6月的專案報告我仔細看過了但是你們說了你們整合了34項的跨網絡的資訊系統也召開了很多次的會議"},{"start":13773.84,"end":13795.486,"text":"但是這份報道我想全國年輕的父母他最關心最恐懼的是什麼呢你們沒有提出來也就是針對於社會安全網的這個部分不適任保姆跟不良安置機構這些的黑名單在這個報告當中都沒有"},{"start":13796.519,"end":13825.908,"text":"在這個報導當中都沒有那你們說要確保兒少順利的一個銜接結果把孩子是銜接到哪裡去呢到有虐童記錄換個名字他一樣趙雲燕這樣子怎麼叫順利銜接呢最近發生了這麼多的這些事件所以本席要請教今天的專案報告非常好而且他的名稱很長叫做什麼脆弱家庭兒少支持服務及銜接機制"},{"start":13826.548,"end":13841.595,"text":"的一個檢討這個是今天的主題那所以我想如果有以通話白話文來講就是說全國人民想要問的可能就只有兩句話為什麼有政府認證的保姆"},{"start":13842.395,"end":13858.671,"text":"跟這個機構還是會有虐童那每次出事情的時候都是我們的基層社工員員要出來做祭祈這不公平啊這不公平所以您剛才說了今天下午你要開始來跟他們對話"},{"start":13860.473,"end":13888.599,"text":"甚至如果因為大家工作很多到各區大家來做這個對話跟做溝通跟做鼓勵那所以你認為目前我們這些的機制及格嗎跟委員說明對於這個消極條件就是不適任的我們在有一個CRC專區資訊專區凡是違反了兒少法或者是這個幼保法等等的這些都可以查詢得到"},{"start":13889.139,"end":13916.657,"text":"所以在任用的時候或者是這個家長也可以上我們這個專區去查詢這些所謂過去曾經有觸犯到這個兒少法等等的那另外在這個事件之後呢我們對於這個安置的這個條件也做了改變那未來我們還有很多的這個修法會納入在平建的制度裡頭平建制度就成為我們剛才說的"},{"start":13918.999,"end":13945.268,"text":"他不是只有紙上作業他寫得很好你就歐帕你要想就是說你們也說了吳玉璟的一個訪視還有你們的評鑑機制所以我個人認為評鑑機制不是只有紙上作業嘛你要真正實際好你吳玉璟的訪視我個人要請教孩子衣服下的歐漆被虐打"},{"start":13947.922,"end":13971.443,"text":"有如此去仿似嗎我想這個也是我們在這個改善中也包含進來就是對於這個人員的訓練敏感度的提升等等這些我們也會融入在我們的這個改善的這個計畫裡頭所以當你認為你說這個保姆他是有記錄的可是他換了一個名字家人他一樣照顧"},{"start":13973.413,"end":13997.458,"text":"不會 因為他有個人身份的資料上是會被identify是他的家人換了一個名字不是他本人 相關人但是實際上還是這個在照顧也會被查到嘛如果是共同居住的人會被查到才對不共同居住呢"},{"start":13999.349,"end":14017.538,"text":"不共同居置才是我們的黑戶所在啊部長我們今天討論這個重點是在此有問題的時候我們要怎麼樣去處理他的相關人他換了一個名字就另外人申請還是一樣他在照顧那這怎麼辦這怎麼辦"},{"start":14021.004,"end":14047.154,"text":"跟委員報告我們的保姆要職業都要跟地方主管機關申請很清楚本期剛才所說的如果是他的共同居住之人他也要申請登記符合資格他才能收孩子那不然的話本期告訴你的就是說我跟人告訴你的現況當然是別人申請你才會准他嘛符合資格嘛但是不是這一個申請人在照顧"},{"start":14048.354,"end":14062.907,"text":"是一樣虐童的這個保姆在照顧 這怎麼辦你發現了這個事情怎麼辦後台裡面會有ID 透過ID可以勾結這個人有沒有被通報惡虐的記錄部長 本集提出現況"},{"start":14064.788,"end":14085.949,"text":"部長本席提出現況我希望你能夠好好的去討論社會上真正需要協助的這個問題這個非常重要這個剛剛委員所提的這個就是怪羊頭賣狗肉啦對對對你講的就對了這個申請啦但是是這個過去被處分過的人如果發現了要怎麼辦"},{"start":14086.87,"end":14090.572,"text":"所以這個我們要嚴懲你們要有機制 一定要嚴懲要怎麼樣 終生不可以靠近這個產業同不同意 這樣子終生不得靠近這個產業我覺得你們必須要有這樣子的一個機制出來那第二 也就是我希望你們去建構全國統一兒保避雷查詢系統"},{"start":14109.14,"end":14136.236,"text":"這個非常重要 因為在我們的資料裡頭我們看到兒少通報的案件112年是多少 10萬件但是我們看到114年是13萬件它增長的是3萬件 換句話說是三成但是你只有到末端是給社工我們事實上在討論 社工的人員目前在第一線都一定沒有夠而且你要去招募這些 本身也不夠"},{"start":14137.216,"end":14151.677,"text":"所以你們又設置了一個什麼呢你們設置了一個通報調查處處理中心這些人誰做請教誰要做你有了這個資訊然後還要分類然後才看"},{"start":14152.458,"end":14180.054,"text":"怎麼處理那請問你這些人員誰做13萬件114年那現在我不希望越多但是你的人力要怎麼去處理沒錯這個是一個重點就是剛剛委員提到的因為我們鼓勵通報讓這個通報量很大進來可是裡面很複雜對所以你要篩選嘛篩選要有人做請教誰做你還是拉第一線的社工人去做嗎因為都不夠耶"},{"start":14181.435,"end":14207.852,"text":"這個調查處理中心我們是希望導入多元的人力讓社工做他專業的那分案的部分呢我們用其他的人力來做協助所以不會全部都是社工人力其他的人力你重新招募嗎對是不是不要跌床駕屋因為他已經不夠人我要告訴你的是因為他們做的所以你現在大家AI導入什麼這些可以去運作部長因為"},{"start":14211.174,"end":14227.11,"text":"中錯未入學的你現在的機制怎麼做你現在的機制就是說去通報給鄉鎮公所公所去看了看了之後再通報給給這個學校學校之後再去找人去看至少要一個禮拜兩個禮拜"},{"start":14228.351,"end":14247.421,"text":"對不對 那你應該可以做一個統一啊衛福部你應該可以跟教育部相同的一個系統如果這個孩子沒到學校來 馬上紅燈亮起來你不用再有這些的通報啊不用旅行公文嘛 我們要的是接住孩子啊"},{"start":14248.622,"end":14271.782,"text":"對 對不對 我們跟教育部有合作有合作對啊 那你的流程大概一到兩個禮拜啊孩子都不知道跑到哪裡去啦所以你們這些可以統一的一個系統孩子只要沒有到學校 你的紅燈就亮起來嘛你為什麼還要叫這個公所去找 找不到人再通報給學校他層層的在上這個公文呢"},{"start":14276.294,"end":14300.521,"text":"把時間都拖延啊所以這個議題我請衛護部跟教育部這個是可以融合在一起做一個預警系統的你們去研擬好不好不要讓那個旅行公文一到兩個禮拜我們接不到孩子是心痛啊好不好 你多久時間你一個禮拜把研議的方案給我好 那多久沒關係 多久"},{"start":14304.002,"end":14331.957,"text":"一個月一個月通報出來方案謝謝統一好謝謝謝謝楊瓊英委員那我就會服務也要提醒一下剛剛楊瓊英委員質詢的很重要你們過去都是戶籍同住可是基本上同住可是如果他戶籍不在一起的時候照樣再住那個家還是會產生楊瓊英委員提的那個東西還是要去處理接下來我們請陳昭芝委員發言"},{"start":14338.08,"end":14340.801,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長有請石部長陳委員好部長好我今天跟你談這個收出養的問題對一個孩子來說他被出養大概對一生是非常重大的一個影響或是改變但是就我個人的實務經驗來說其實收出養這個制度它影響的至少有三方面"},{"start":14362.973,"end":14385.685,"text":"一個是就是出養家庭所謂的原生家庭還有孩子本身孩子本身當然有但是對於收養家庭其實也是都是一生非常長期而且不是很容易做的功課那部長這個經過凱凱案之後整個收養制度我國收出養制度依照現行的方式是由地方政府來負責出養的必要性評估"},{"start":14386.985,"end":14390.648,"text":"然後有民間媒合這個機構來負責這個收養家庭評估媒合還有兒童這個追蹤的這個發展等等等等但是問題我覺得不是有沒有分工而是說分工之後有沒有足夠的專業能力去接住這項高度專業的這個工作"},{"start":14405.819,"end":14425.072,"text":"那過去民間機構他是專責的他是專責的但是現在地方政府他們是用第一線的社工來做這件事他等於是監辦然後還有案件的這個量重然後個案又分散老實說他們那個經驗的累積不容易所以事實上他的整個評估標準就是說"},{"start":14425.612,"end":14443.02,"text":"他自然會有落差部長這是我非常重視一件事情那利新基金會其實早在去年五月他就發文提醒了無論是社會局的家庭福利組的社工或是在全國各地社福中心基層的人員他們本來的工作是聚焦在這個所謂的"},{"start":14444.201,"end":14456.8,"text":"社區支持跟初期的預防那在出養必要性這個理解上他在理解上或許還不是很充足所以社家屬是不是可以讓我們了解說目前的狀況如何當把這個工作交給他們的時候"},{"start":14460.664,"end":14476.323,"text":"你們做了哪些努力跟委員說明大概現在統計大概一年大概差不多200案的收出養需求那我們是全國大概是建置156個社福中心所以以負荷來講這個到"},{"start":14478.746,"end":14491.579,"text":"倒不如其他其他的案量可能更多那再來就是這個收出養的這個媒合機構這個確實是一個重點我聽不好意思我現在談的就不是說那個量的問題我剛剛很強調一個專業嘛因為過去是專責但是可看到你們做了"},{"start":14496.104,"end":14524.783,"text":"不同的一些分工所以刚刚大概也有提到说尽量把他的这个专业的这个能力提升所以也发展了那个叫收出养必要评估的报告的格式大概要评估哪一些东西然后再办理这个教育训练的课程我听说现在有一些课程啊那请问社家属这个课程你的师资够吗课程的我本来以为就是说你们会说现在对于这个"},{"start":14525.973,"end":14532.078,"text":"要了解這個出養的必要性這個 必要性評估嘛對 必要性評估 你們有相關的訓練嗎那個有開課 那個師資夠嗎師資應該沒有問題 師資的量能是夠的嗎好 我覺得非常 這個很重要啊那麼台灣親子共學教育促進會也有幾點這個聲明主張啦那我覺得其中最重要一點就是訪視指引他應該根據風險的分層來修訂"},{"start":14554.816,"end":14583.321,"text":"威福部目前現行的指引並沒有依照個案的風險來做差異所以來根據他這個來調整訪視的頻率或是協作的要求那部長您可不可以承諾或是您覺得認不認同未來高風險個案你知道高風險個案就是指譬如說出養前的站託像凱凱那初次收養的保姆或是說有特殊需求有特殊發展需求的孩子那要有更密集的多方的會商嗎"},{"start":14586.304,"end":14606.884,"text":"有關於風險分級就是讓他的訪視頻率不會大家都一樣要調整一下目前有一些做法我是不是請署長說明一下簡單說明好嗎你時間有限現在已經是對於他在剛安置初期的部分他的訪視層級會拉到比較高但你的指引還沒有改變你的指引還沒有改變"},{"start":14608.26,"end":14612.245,"text":"已經有修了就說一定就是按照然後不同的需求那我希望以後我能夠看到這個部分的報告一個月內的報告我稍微了解現在運作的一個情況"},{"start":14623.78,"end":14649.057,"text":"這個公私力協作本身是沒有問題的問題就是如果專業沒有到位的話你把風險是分散而不是降低我們目的是降低這個風險那受署長就只有因為我們處理是最脆弱的孩子我們必須承認本來就不應該當作一般的行政業務來處理但我要強調這件事同樣不可以給第一線的社工做這個道德要求跟這個責任的轉嫁如果你沒有對他提供好的訓練跟支持也沒有給他這個"},{"start":14653.16,"end":14680.968,"text":"做明確的標準那再優秀之後他再努力他都可能沒有辦法做出一個穩定一致的判斷所以核心不是說社工努不努力而是你們要把這個制度設計好把專業的支持是到位的那這樣制度缺口就不會變成那個社工他本身的壓力來源你更不能讓孩子來承擔這個結果就我今天要強調的這一點那部長您剛剛提到的就是說那些相關的那個報告我也想要關心一下"},{"start":14681.568,"end":14701.145,"text":"因為我自己本身就是收養家庭嘛就是我們後來113年有修那個收出養的辦法還有相關的指引還有必要性的評估的那個form我們再提供給委員參考部長很多國家他收出養的這個管理這個法律都改了幾十版了就不斷的精進好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝謝謝陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":14706.229,"end":14719.093,"text":"林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員不在鄭正前委員 鄭正前委員 鄭正前委員不在蔡玉瑜委員 蔡玉瑜委員 蔡玉瑜委員不在接著我們請張雅玲委員發言謝謝主席那我們有請部長有請史部長"},{"start":14735.495,"end":14753.186,"text":"好 張委員好部長首先我要肯定就是在這次的修法確實是有往前走我們也看到納入了兒少工作證然後我想這是非常重要的一步因為我自己的助理其實就有來自於社工而且他們曾經也有人擔任過居家托育的這個督導所以我想今天就要把今天這個"},{"start":14753.966,"end":14775.847,"text":"制度到底能不能接軌到落地來跟部長做一些討論首先第一個部分就是說我先確認一下我們這次的修法方向是未來的法定代理人不能夠再直接透過收出養機構進行媒合而且必須要由地方政府來進行出養的必要性評估之後才會進入這整個的程序對嗎我的理解正確嗎這個是新的修法把它明定了"},{"start":14776.067,"end":14800.507,"text":"好 那我想問一下那我們現在跟地方有沒有完成一致性的討論有沒有一個全國一致性的評估指引呢有沒有收出養必要性的評估我們去年才修我們是113年先去修訂這個收出養辦法然後把那個必要性評估那個縫那個格式也重新修正所以我們現在已經跟地方完成討論了是嗎那個時候都有都已經有一個"},{"start":14802.41,"end":14824.413,"text":"現在都已經有一個一致性的好那我想問一下因為這個對我來說非常的重要因為這些出養呢接下來是不是會有現行的攝服中心來承接呢會不會因為現在的攝服中心其實部份都非常的沉重對就是那個評估的部分是由攝服中心"},{"start":14824.875,"end":14842.987,"text":"可是收出物糧的必要性譬如接下來就是會由聽起來就是社福中心來承接那但是我想部長一定非常清楚我們現在的社福中心其實已經承接了非常非常多的業務包含從脆弱家庭 自殺防治如果現在還要再接的話我們現在的第一線的社工平均已經是"},{"start":14844.068,"end":14865.423,"text":"超過132案有些縣市甚至已經到200案雖然說我們的政策理想是35案但是這個業務再加下去的話那這個工作量不就已經是超載了嗎那我們有沒有去評估現在社福中心的量能到底可不可行還是這有可能再加劇我們社工離開這個職場的問題呢"},{"start":14868.005,"end":14893.234,"text":"其實跟委員說明我們現在的量大概一年大概200案而且多數它本來就是脆弱家庭本來脆弱家庭的追蹤關懷也是在社福中心所以其實是等於它的衍生它本來就是一個脆膠的追蹤只是後來評估之後進入到這個收出養的程序大概是這樣"},{"start":14894.672,"end":14914.105,"text":"我想因為這個部分因為我可能還要再跟部長約時間來詳細討論因為畢竟我認為這個社福中心應該是回到一個支持性的角色而不是承擔全部的評估責任我擔心這會對他們的工作量其實是一個很大的負荷那這件事情我跟部長約時間來討論因為我接下來要請教另外一個很困擾的問題就是說"},{"start":14915.566,"end":14928.312,"text":"我們現在也強化了訪視的機制可是因為第一線的居託訪視員也告訴我一個很現實的問題他們想要通報但是地方縣市的社會局有時候會質疑這是不是卸責通報"},{"start":14929.995,"end":14949.76,"text":"也就是說根據53條裡面我們其實是發現兒少有受虐或不當對待的時候就有通報義務嘛可是他們一方面法律要求他通報一方面可能實務上又會被認為是卸責通報那這兩件事情要如何並存呢我們是不是有一個全國一致的通報的判準或者是SOP呢"},{"start":14950.88,"end":14957.025,"text":"現在正在進行中我們會讓他有一個比較一致性的通報原則我們會有一個一致性的原則是嗎那我想因為其實現在 精準通報啦因為現在我們發現通報量越來越大量"},{"start":14966.713,"end":14983.744,"text":"好我自己是想說啦這個要有一個一致性的原則跟判斷標準啦因為這樣才不會造成說食物上面他會有點不太知道到底要不要通報通報完了會不會又發生了什麼樣子的問題那造成他們又要承擔這樣子的責任跟後果而且特別是兒少不分先士啦其實都是我們的台灣的寶貝啦好不好"},{"start":14984.364,"end":15008.25,"text":"好那接下來就是兒少工作證其實今天有非常多的委員都有提到這一個點那我其實就前面都已經解釋的蠻清楚但我想要詢問一個非常重要的關鍵就是說我們現在這些不同系統的資料其實是分散在不同的地方我們接下來會有一個完整的不適任的人與整合查詢機制讓我們的家長可以去查核嗎"},{"start":15009.551,"end":15027.551,"text":"跟委員說你在我們的草案裡頭這個消息條件會有分門別類所以跨越好幾條他最後呢就要彙整成一個系統不然他沒有辦法查詢所以我們在這個修法的版本裡面確實要後面要建立這個系統沒有錯"},{"start":15027.871,"end":15045.353,"text":"對但是因為剛剛其實前面委員也有提到有些現在沒有被納入的這些應該也都要被納入應該還要再完整的討論因為畢竟是說他們會到哪裡可能到夏令營到各個地方家長其實很需要知道這些事情好嗎所以要建立一個完整的資料庫好那最後我快快問一下好抱歉再給我一分鐘時間就可以了"},{"start":15045.834,"end":15063.51,"text":"就是說因為我們這次的修法其實也有得到兒少的休息跟遊戲的權利那我覺得非常好但是我們真正涉及的其實基本上只有兩條而且還是沿用原本的條文只是增加了休息的配套可是因為我上次其實也有質詢過相同的題目我把這樣子的題目質詢的放在網路上面現在已經突破了65萬的瀏覽"},{"start":15065.171,"end":15082.039,"text":"那代表是說兒少對於現行的制度上面還有很大很大的疑問而且他們非常的關注所以我想請部長簡單回答這個問題就可以了就是說我們到底有沒有明確的把兒少休息跟休閒的定義是定義在基本權利還是福利制度呢福利事項"},{"start":15083.374,"end":15110.706,"text":"應該是基本權益吧基本權益嗎好如果是基本權益的話那我想這個就其實因為並不是只有衛福部一個人要做啦其實一個跨部會的整合的議題啦那這個部分呢我想要再跟衛福部部長約時間來討論如何落實好嗎好好因為在我們的那個草案的52條是有把那個兒少的休息遊戲及休閒權利所以是把它當成他的權利落實的部分啦落實的部分好謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":15113.608,"end":15121.873,"text":"謝謝張雅玲委員的發言賴慧雲委員不在羅志強委員不在鍾嘉斌委員不在王美惠委員不在陳培宇委員不在葉元之委員不在"},{"start":15137.951,"end":15142.934,"text":"張家俊委員 張家俊委員 張家俊委員不在 接著我們請陳穎委員發言請時部長 有請時部長"},{"start":15159.745,"end":15175.06,"text":"陳委員好部長好我想在這邊先追一下進度因為本席在去年4月24號第二次質詢你們衛福部的這個食品及相關產品標示宣導廣告涉及不實誇張異生誤解或醫療效果認定準則那"},{"start":15180.444,"end":15207.936,"text":"其中呢這個把這個醫療效果跟這個健康效應化成等號然後都傻傻分不清楚的這件事情那把這個就是說這個準則就是把這個全部的健康都視為這個醫療那去年呢特別有就是說有答應就是說要檢討修改那其實已經過了一年了"},{"start":15209.516,"end":15233.506,"text":"我想要請教一下部長就是說你們這個看起來效果那個好像沒有什麼進度啊好像我的印象裡面也好像沒有進度的樣子這個我再回去瞭解一下因為今天食藥署的人沒有對我知道但是我想就是說還是要請就是有關於那個食品標示的部分嘛"},{"start":15235.455,"end":15259.608,"text":"就是說很多應酬的場合都可以看到食藥署的大人但是如果說他可以把這樣的精神跟時間用來好好的檢討一下這個準則我相信應該很有進度才對啊不要應酬太多另外就是說在這次的這個兒少法修法的提案討論"},{"start":15261.203,"end":15261.283,"text":"這是什麼?"},{"start":15291.101,"end":15315.088,"text":"恐怕不是就是說讓人家很不樂見這樣子的回答就很難接受所以我今天想要特別再請教一下部長就是說兒少的傷害死亡案件他如何預防減少還有各項保護措施到底應該要如何落實那我們先看一下你們這個第八頁所提供的數據在112年統計顯示兒少事故傷害死亡是167人"},{"start":15321.01,"end":15323.493,"text":"那受傷11964人這個數據其實還蠻驚人的請問這個我剛剛講的這個數據是真的嗎"},{"start":15333.365,"end":15360.197,"text":"對應該是真的都是真的好那因為我們全國生育人數去年也才10萬多人那單單112年就有這樣大的這個傷亡那平均一個月受傷1000人次的通報那14位兒少的死亡而且還是兩年前的最新資料如果上述的資料是真的那"},{"start":15362.098,"end":15370.122,"text":"我覺得本期實在是很難去接受這樣的一個統計那部長你能不能大概"},{"start":15371.536,"end":15394.831,"text":"就是說明一下因為跟委員說明這個大概是來自於我們那個健保就醫資料去分析出來那採那個診斷碼跟外因碼然後去分析出來所以那個受傷的話就是只要受傷就醫他就算所以那個人數會比較多那因為現在已經115年了那為什麼可以引用的資料是112年的統計"},{"start":15396.832,"end":15414.464,"text":"那到底就是說難道是要經過什麼樣的認證程序才會納入統計因為我聽部長回應好像應該只是健保的對我們現在也在那個有一個是事故傷害的那個那個會議的話都是會用這個健保資料先跑"},{"start":15414.984,"end":15436.675,"text":"不過他還是有一個時間落差所以這中間應該沒有什麼認證程序就是健保資料但是有時候譬如說他是交通事故的話再勾結那個交通部的資料那事實上兒少傷亡的統計只是我們用來作為預防的手段那我們不是要一個完整的數字我們要的是什麼樣的傷害"},{"start":15437.796,"end":15458.342,"text":"然後好發在什麼樣的族群然後我們可以去找出一個最大的這個保護跟最好的預防措施然後努力的去落實然後再看看說成效如何這樣子那目前的通報監測統計的分析實在看不出來這個成效在哪裡因為"},{"start":15462.943,"end":15475.631,"text":"剛剛對於就是說你們有提到這個現行事故傷害監測屬於這個公衛生議題那公共衛生的議題那我國是採取這個ICD-10的數據去進行統計分析"},{"start":15484.38,"end":15508.176,"text":"這個提供給各部會去就是說他作為這個政策的參考其實像這樣子國際疾病與這個相關健康問題統計分類這樣子其實你們現在應該是到第10版第10版了對要準備要進11了ICT10但其實這樣子其實是很困擾的"},{"start":15509.568,"end":15529.367,"text":"因為我們看一下這個國際疾病分類第十版對於這個意外事故它的確有特別的分類代碼剛剛部長也特別講說如果交通它還有一些認證但是這套系統主要是用來作為疾病傷害中毒診斷的分類"},{"start":15530.868,"end":15549.157,"text":"然後健保給父的用途啊不是用來做這個兒少虐待傷害甚至性侵害的統計分類那你們不能因為ICD-10有帶到這個外因性的傷害然後就忽略我們兒少法就是要針對這個兒少有特別的保護"},{"start":15550.237,"end":15567.108,"text":"所以針對他們可能接受到的這些親愛的類型去特別設計一套有別於成人的通報監測跟統計的分類的制度部長你們回去是不是可以再好好的檢討規劃思考一下"},{"start":15568.128,"end":15588.462,"text":"我想今天這個是很重要的一個點非常贊成委員的看法因為要有好的這個數據根據才能夠作為這個政策上的評估或者是建立那所以我們在那個兒少全法的草案我們現在預告的草案的"},{"start":15590.182,"end":15604.368,"text":"49條就把它納入這個兒少事故傷害的資料登錄統計及分析這個業務在裡面只是說過去因為我們的健保資料庫很好用他的這個"},{"start":15606.148,"end":15632.5,"text":"收集的最方便最完整所以以健保資料庫為準但是在事故傷害的分析上還需要採用到其他的指引比如說世界衛生組織也有事故傷害分析指引等等去搭配可能還要涉及到跟其他資料庫的串接所以我們會把它納入在我們未來的工作裡面"},{"start":15633.339,"end":15658.593,"text":"好 那我想我們不想過多的統計但也不想有漏網之魚是所以一個符合的一個統計分析是很重要的那我知道就是歐美國家對兒童的保護是非常重視那部長如果有機會的話也應該有可以親自到國外去考察好"},{"start":15658.993,"end":15684.852,"text":"那了解一下他們的法律核心保護的精神跟這個實際上的操作呢的這些職權跟措施我們法律定的再好如果說單靠衛福部的資源其實還有這個各地方政府的這個社福人力加上就是說沒有足夠的這個職權其實很難很難真正去落實法令的規定那"},{"start":15687.053,"end":15704.983,"text":"加上就是說我在這邊也提供一個意見就是說儘速去協調這些社福人員跟這個婦幼警察的職權建立一個合作的機制才能真的落實那在經過很多這些兒少的這些傷害案件"},{"start":15705.683,"end":15720.067,"text":"好像也沒有看到這個婦幼警察的功能就效果不彰那你們在調查兒童受到虐待或者不法侵害的事件的時候有沒有協同婦幼警力陪伴有嗎有吧 應該會一起"},{"start":15723.904,"end":15749.953,"text":"有 好如果說發現有具體事實那是不是可以以這個現行犯實施必要的即時的處置也可以好那衛福部跟這個婦幼警察的指揮協調聯繫啊就是說你們部長可不可以稍微說明一下因為很多時候感覺是兩條平行線在走沒有太多交集好我請我們那個保護是市長來說明"},{"start":15751.974,"end":15777.921,"text":"是委員因為其實平常這個各地方政府都已經建立了設陣警政這個聯繫的管道所以他們如果遇到緊急事件其實都是立刻都可以一起去協同方式好我想這個中間可能有一些你們可以再多加了解因為今天這樣我想時間也沒有很多所以可能後續可以再把一些細節"},{"start":15779.321,"end":15807.795,"text":"再多加說明喔那我是希望說在這次的修法可以落實整個婦幼警察的角色那沒有法源依據婦幼警察可能他們可能也只是在警察的職權範圍內呢就是很被動消極的在執行業務但是公務人員呢恐怕也很難去協調去就是說很難協調去他們很難協調他們去協助調查那如果部長認為有必要的話呢"},{"start":15809.176,"end":15833.452,"text":"本席也將立刻就是我們也會來馬上來提案來支持就是說我們的兒少虐待跟這個性侵害調查那地方這個警政機關呢應該要派員協助調查並且要做這個很必要的處置那我希望說衛福部能夠展現你們的魄力那也希望部長就是說現在或許去有些國家比較困難但是"},{"start":15834.873,"end":15855.402,"text":"但是還是鼓勵就是說部長可以親自到國外瞭解一下他們的做法那盡速跟這整個警政單位來溝通思考利用這次修法機會讓我們的這個保護兒少的新時代可以做得更好好謝謝好謝謝委員未來在修法的時候我們再向委員請教好謝謝"},{"start":15856.502,"end":15884.145,"text":"好謝謝陳穎委員我想衛福部可能要針對陳穎委員因為他針對原住民本來在事故傷害的比例本來就是比較高而且在台東他也很關心那我們就看那個數據事實上是高的所以對於事故傷害的監測資料真的要有一些後續本日會議詢答全部結束委員劉建國蘇清泉徐欣穎所提書面質詢"},{"start":15885.936,"end":15904.93,"text":"列入記錄刊登公報 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檢疫查驗等機制如何保障國人食品安全包括後續市場抽驗預算執行的情形進行專題報告"},{"start":1515.819,"end":1545.348,"text":"并被质询第二项是审查中华民国一百一十五年度中央政府总预算案有关组织总处即审计部审计部台北市审计处审计部新北市审计处还有审计部桃园市审计处审计部台中市的审计处审计部台南市审计处审计部高雄市的审计处部分请答询第三项是审查中华民国第一百一十五年度"},{"start":1545.788,"end":1546.008,"text":"我們等一下會有"},{"start":1573.766,"end":1595.477,"text":"好我們等一下會有六個單位進行預算報告包括內容等等第一位我待會請行政院理常務副秘書長進行預算內容的報告第二位我請財政部阮次長進行專題預算報告第三位我請農業部胡政次進行專題報告第四位我請衛福部莊市長"},{"start":1597.958,"end":1622.315,"text":"进行专题报告第五位请行政院主席总处陈主席长进行专题报告第六位请审计部陈审计长进行专题报告好现在我介绍一下我们在现场的出席的委员包括第一位吴秉瑞委员第二位严匡恒委员"},{"start":1625.714,"end":1647.185,"text":"好我現在介紹一下我們今天在現場的所有的行政院的同仁第一位我們行政院的常務副秘書長李國新歡迎您我們行政院的主席總署主席長陳淑姿主席長歡迎您我們包括主席總署的李祖密李君李祖密歡迎您"},{"start":1648.993,"end":1663.718,"text":"综合规划处的陈处长陈梅英陈处长欢迎您公务预算处的许永毅许处长欢迎您基金预算处的潘处长欢迎您谢谢会计局算处的林专委欢迎您"},{"start":1665.646,"end":1688.754,"text":"我们综合统计处的蔡处长欢迎您谢谢我们国事普查处的潘处长欢迎您我们主计资讯处的吴处长欢迎您我们人事处的刘处长欢迎您我们秘书处的张嘉瑜主任欢迎您我们包括郑峰主任陈主任欢迎您"},{"start":1689.946,"end":1694.773,"text":"接下來請主計事的詹主任歡迎您今天在現場還有審計部的陳審計長陳瑞銘陳審計長歡迎您還有我們今天副審計長也在現場林副審計長歡迎您 謝謝"},{"start":1705.808,"end":1734.448,"text":"还有我们审计部的主任秘书林主秘欢迎您谢谢我们第一厅的厅长周厅长欢迎您第二厅的陈厅长欢迎您第三厅的张厅长欢迎您第四厅的张国清张厅长欢迎您第五厅的陆冠胜陆厅长欢迎您第六厅的朱曼如朱厅长欢迎您副审室的主任黄主任黄美兰黄主任欢迎您"},{"start":1735.785,"end":1742.142,"text":"我们资讯处的温代理处长欢迎您我们总务处的肖处长欢迎您"},{"start":1743.459,"end":1772.398,"text":"我们人事室的主任黄炳黄主任欢迎您我们会计室的黄雪玲黄主任欢迎您我们振丰市的黄继德黄主任欢迎您我们今天还要来包括我们教育农林审查处的叶处长欢迎您我们交通建设审查处的王处长欢迎您台北市审计处的洪处长欢迎您新北市的审计处的处长李处长欢迎您"},{"start":1773.679,"end":1796.217,"text":"桃园市审计处的张处长欢迎您台中市审计处的张处长张汉京张处长欢迎您我们台南市审计处的王处长欢迎您高雄市审计处的陈处长欢迎您金融市审计处的吴主任欢迎您宜兰县审计室的刘主任欢迎您"},{"start":1797.757,"end":1820.492,"text":"新竹县审计室的庄主任欢迎您新竹市审计室的郭主任欢迎您苗栗县审查室的杨主任欢迎您彰化县审计室的谢主任欢迎您南投县审计室的李主任欢迎您榆林县审计室的杨美冠杨主任欢迎您"},{"start":1822.557,"end":1822.817,"text":"還有嗎 還有"},{"start":1852.64,"end":1880.882,"text":"還有新門縣審計室的吳主任歡迎您我們財政部的政次阮政次歡迎您謝謝我們財政部底下推動促成司的張司長歡迎您我們今天國庫署陳署長歡迎您我們今天賦稅署的宋署長歡迎您我們關務署的彭署長歡迎您我們國有財產署的副署長郭副署長歡迎您"},{"start":1882.223,"end":1891.086,"text":"我們財政資訊中心的副主任李副主任歡迎您我們今天還有邀請農業部的政務次長胡政次歡迎您謝謝我們動植物防疫檢疫署的署長杜署長歡迎您國際事務司檢任記政鍾記政歡迎您我們農糧署的副組長歡迎您"},{"start":1910.826,"end":1936.105,"text":"衛福部的長賜 莊仁祥 莊長賜歡迎您我們食藥署的副署長 蔡副署長歡迎您我們馬上進行預算內容的報告因為我們今天報告的內容跟質詢的內容比較多也拜託大家盡量簡短重要來做報告說明第一位先請行政院理常務副秘書長進行預算內容報告"},{"start":1943.949,"end":1961.56,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生今天應邀列席貴委員會並就1.5年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市一般性補助款災害準備金及第二預備金等預算編列情形提出報告自感榮幸 請檢邀說明如下"},{"start":1962.601,"end":1983.112,"text":"財政收支發放法修正後 2015年度地方貨配中央統籌分配稅款達8841億元較2014年度大幅增加4165億元各四縣政府已有適足的財源支應其自治事項所以我們的補助事項勢必配合做合理的調整"},{"start":1983.852,"end":2004.366,"text":"本院修正中央對持家室及縣市政府補助辦法 擬定一般性補助款補助範圍包括具經常性、普及性、基本建設或維運性質、財政均衡等四項15年度中央對持家室及縣市一般性補助款合共編列2500零億元與114年度相同"},{"start":2008.709,"end":2022.036,"text":"那依照災害防救法第57條規定實施該法災害防救的經費由各級政府按鎖定應辦事項依法編列從91年度起我們每年都編列災害準備金20億或50億14年度為了及時因應災害緊急應變的需求均編列50億元"},{"start":2032.518,"end":2054.5,"text":"預算法第二十二條規定第二倍金在總預算中設定之其數額是財政狀況決定之經橫著第二倍金最近三年度實際動之情形一五年度編列第二倍金八十億元敬請各位委員鼎力支持使各項政務能順利推動謝謝並祝各位健康愉快"},{"start":2056.403,"end":2059.625,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 大家早安"},{"start":2080.782,"end":2099.424,"text":"今天貴委員會邀請相關部會就馬鈴薯輸入之邊境管制檢疫查驗等機制如何保障國人食品安全及後市長抽驗預算指引情形提出專題報告並審查中華民國一百一十五年度中央政府總預算案有關本部"},{"start":2100.22,"end":2129.24,"text":"補助地方政府辦理畜生案件 績效獎勵及撕裂煙品查緝刑警本部檢要報告之下第一個馬林署輸入的邊境管制機制部分進口人輸入生鮮或者是冷藏的馬林署除了要填具進口報單向海關申報之外也要向農業部房檢署辦理這個職務檢驗還有要向衛福部的食藥署申請這個食品檢驗"},{"start":2130.32,"end":2144.376,"text":"那海關查核進口貨物跟報單申報的貨名重量產製的國別是不是相符並且收到這個房檢署跟資料署"},{"start":2145.326,"end":2171.483,"text":"檢驗合格的通知資訊之後才可以辦理放行的作業或如果經過相關的主管機關檢疫不合格的話進口人就應該依照各該機關的通知辦理退運或消費海關在貨品放行的第二天都會將進口的資料傳送房檢署及食藥署供其執行境內後市場的管理"},{"start":2172.776,"end":2198.849,"text":"那有關這個補助地方政府辦理出餐案件績效獎勵部分為鼓勵地方政府辦理民間參與公共建設案件本部依照相關的規定115年度編列出餐獎勵金共計新台幣5億元那麼出餐案件的獎勵金包括簽約獎勵金跟考核獎勵金簽約的獎勵金依照前一年度簽約案件的民間投資金額核算並在預算額度內調整發放"},{"start":2202.227,"end":2224.9,"text":"考核獎勵金是依照地方政府前一年度促餐業務受考核成績按等地核發20到100萬元地方政府得運用該獎勵金辦理促餐案件的可行性評估先期規劃、耐震評估、招商作業、旅業管理及法律執行等事項"},{"start":2226.101,"end":2244.159,"text":"那第三個有關補助地方政府辦理失菸查緝情形那麼依照菸海防治法等規定菸菌徵收的金額0.95%要平均分配給中央跟地方查緝"},{"start":2246.038,"end":2271.721,"text":"把撕裂煙品來使用那至於輔助各地方政府經費的分配指標為平均分配佔20%人口及面積各佔12%查獲案件及數量各佔24%近三年經費平均執行率佔8%另外經過本部跟審計部所屬審計處是查核地方政府有未專款專用情勢的話那每案會扣減"},{"start":2273.482,"end":2293.099,"text":"總貨配數的百分之五115年度本部編列補助地方政府金額跟往年相當接近為一億兩千三百五十萬元那波供其執行查緝業務所需的經費如失焉的倉儲費用、檢驗銷毀設備費、教育訓練及通信費用等等"},{"start":2297.863,"end":2317.046,"text":"本部將持續透過辦理促餐及茶企業務考核督導地方政府落實促餐獎勵金及茶企經費的專款專用來鼓勵地方政府推動民間參與公共建設案件並提升茶企私菸的菸品效能以上簡報告 謝謝謝謝阮市長的報告跟說明第三位邀請農業部胡政次進行專題報告"},{"start":2340.387,"end":2343.251,"text":"趙偉還有各位委員大家好那"},{"start":2344.602,"end":2365.525,"text":"大院貴委員會全體委員會邀請本部就馬鈴薯輸入之邊境管制檢疫查驗等機制如何保障國人食品安全及後市場抽驗預算執行情形進行專案報告緊就馬鈴薯輸入之檢疫部分提出以下報告雙重把關"},{"start":2366.954,"end":2387.233,"text":"食安標準不變為強化輸入馬鈴薯之邊境管理本部與衛生福利部採取雙重把關之嚴謹立場以確保我國農業生產環境安全及國人健康農業部作為檢疫主管機關核心任務在於維護農業生產環境透過嚴謹"},{"start":2392.026,"end":2410.601,"text":"嚴格禁止花芽或帶病馬鈴薯輸入防篤其流或者是流作種植種源而導致病蟲害傳播同時衛生福利部負責食品安全與品質監測針對農藥殘留、重金屬殘留及含有"},{"start":2415.031,"end":2433.889,"text":"有害物質例如茄簡進行查驗藉由兩部會之專業分工與協同合作確保發芽腐爛及發霉的馬鈴薯不會進入國內市場維護食品安全品質標準不變第二點"},{"start":2434.963,"end":2451.867,"text":"美國加工用馬鈴薯檢疫條件重點說明,我國加工用馬鈴薯部分仰賴進口,主要進口需求月份為每年的7月到4年的1月,而且以美國為主要的進口來源國。"},{"start":2453.1,"end":2472.752,"text":"以供應國內需求針對115年2月6日公告實施之美國產加工用馬鈴薯輸入檢疫條件重點分數如下在美國輸出前的管理加工用馬鈴薯輸出前需取得美國檢疫單位出具的檢疫證明書並規定"},{"start":2474.993,"end":2491.329,"text":"加注證明該批馬鈴薯已經施用花芽抑制劑且僅供加工使用如果發現有花芽附帶土壤或者是有八種我們所關切的病蟲害就不可以輸入"},{"start":2492.54,"end":2511.691,"text":"那到達台灣的邊境我們進行了這個邊境抽驗輸入人必須向農業部黃檢署申請檢疫繳交美國檢疫證明書同時聲明該批馬鈴薯輸入之後是作為加工有"},{"start":2512.945,"end":2538.687,"text":"檢疫人員檢疫是否有附著土壤是否沒有病蟲害有沒有花芽的狀況才評定檢疫合格在這些做法事實上跟過去相同那衛生福利部食品藥物管理署就按照他的規定進行查驗如果檢疫人員發現有花芽就通知"},{"start":2540.314,"end":2565.109,"text":"衛生福利部食藥署進行切檢的檢測如果有超標就不會流入加工體系當我們檢出花芽花莓或者是腐爛的處理的時候我們怎麼樣來進行相關的流程事實上我們已經確認沒有切檢超標的馬鈴薯如果有花芽花莓或者腐爛的情形"},{"start":2565.729,"end":2585.431,"text":"就由農業部防檢署與衛生福利部食藥署共同合作要求業者整櫃推運、銷毀或者是將該批馬鈴薯封監後直接送到配合檢疫的指定區域在加工前在本部防檢署監督之下由業者"},{"start":2586.091,"end":2607.101,"text":"逐批、逐貴、逐科選別檢查將花芽、花莓或腐爛的馬鈴薯整顆棄置銷毀不會進入加工程序也不會流入市場那挑選過程仍然是邊境簡易的一環我們將持續依據國際規範與科學風險的評估原則審慎檢視"},{"start":2614.131,"end":2630.576,"text":"並滾動檢討相關防檢疫措施還有食品安全的相關措施兼顧貿易變節化並與衛生福利部密切合作透過輸出前管理邊境查驗到加工端這些"},{"start":2631.809,"end":2651.317,"text":"的管理層層把關確保進口馬鈴薯符合檢疫及食品安全規範維護國內的農業生產安全以及國人健康以上報告好謝謝農業部胡政次的報告跟說明接下來我請第四位衛福部莊長次進行專題報告謝謝"},{"start":2661.651,"end":2685.527,"text":"主席 各位委員先生 女士先生今天大院財政委員會召開全體委員會議本部呈邀列席報告深感榮幸資就馬鈴薯輸入之邊境管制檢疫查驗等機制如何保障國人食品安全及後市場抽驗預算執行進行提出專題報告 敬請各位委員不吝會與指教"},{"start":2686.327,"end":2699.343,"text":"衛生福利部負責食品衛生安全對於輸入馬鈴薯的食安管理規範及做法沒有放寬維持不變包含衛生標準輸入查驗流程以及對於違規產品的處置"},{"start":2702.226,"end":2725.988,"text":"輸入馬鈴薯由農業部及衛生福利部雙重把關農業部負責發芽等檢疫議題衛務部負責衛生安全加工用馬鈴薯在輸入台灣前應符合農業部的檢疫條件規範抵台後在邊境尚需通過檢疫及食品衛生安全查驗以及後市場抽驗之把關"},{"start":2727.76,"end":2749.109,"text":"馬鈴薯無論在任何階段都要符合衛生標準等食品安全規定我國針對馬鈴薯定有包括輪迴減在內200ppm的限量規範有腐爛發霉輪迴減超標等情形皆應予以整顆丟棄不得流入加工用途"},{"start":2749.989,"end":2759.439,"text":"在邊境管控環節,本部食品藥物管理署執行輸入查驗,依產品風險進行抽樣檢驗檢驗項目包含農藥殘留、重金屬及龍奎鹼等項目,經檢驗不符規定,要求產品退印或銷毀"},{"start":2771.853,"end":2785.025,"text":"對於經農業部檢疫發現有發芽問題的整批馬鈴薯將先由農業部監督業者剔除發芽整顆馬鈴薯再由衛生單位執行抽樣檢驗龍葵檢經檢驗不符合規定整批銷毀"},{"start":2789.025,"end":2807.372,"text":"本部以國人健康為最高原則將持續與跨部會密切合作於邊境查驗及後市場抽驗確認馬雲署符合相關規定共同把關本部陳大院各委員支持教育監督在此靜置現場並請各位委員繼續支持謝謝謝謝我們衛福部莊長次的報告跟說明接下來我請行政院主計總處陳主計長做專題跟預算內容的報告"},{"start":2823.853,"end":2834.086,"text":"主席 各位委員女士 今天的榮幸意邀列席貴委員會來報告以下僅就本總署114年度施政績效115年度施政計畫重點預算案編列情形"},{"start":2839.792,"end":2858.746,"text":"還有直轄市和縣市一般性補助災害準備金和第二預備金等科目預算便利請請提出報告第一個先就本總署114年施政績效部分稅基和會計部分以編制完成115年度中央政府總預算案和附屬單位預算中計表"},{"start":2859.727,"end":2874.38,"text":"於114年8月29送請大院來審議那第二個就是編制完成114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案中央政府單納失颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案"},{"start":2875.1,"end":2896.101,"text":"也是在114年8月29审议通过三编制完成中央政府总运营国际情势强化经济社会及民生国安任性特别预算于114年10月17审议通过编制完成中央政府马发联马太安西厌涉无灾后重建特别预算案于114年12月2号"},{"start":2898.743,"end":2908.028,"text":"審議通過編制完成113年度中央政府總決算及附屬單位決算終極表及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫替世祺特別決算在114年7月29日審議通過二統計業務部分本總署按時編佈物價和國民所得各項精涉的統計並不斷強化與國際接軌提升統計服務能量"},{"start":2925.069,"end":2937.812,"text":"令普查和抽樣調查業務部分分每年辦理一次的普查作業進程完成114年農林業普查試驗調查研擬115年工業及服務業普查規劃構想並持續按月辦理人力資源調查與受雇員工薪資調查及完成112年國戶統計報告及113年家庭收支調查報告"},{"start":2949.835,"end":2971.322,"text":"二本總署一百一十五年度施政計劃重點一稅基和會計部分持續強化中程計劃預算制度落實臨機預算精神配合當前政府施政重點和便一百一十六年度中央政府總預算案及附屬單位預算及中計表並加強特種基金財務控管提升會計決算和財務報導品質並協助機關強化內部控制監督作業二統計和普查"},{"start":2977.509,"end":2993.704,"text":"普查及抽樣調查業務部門將持續精進各項精涉統計辦理技術以及提升統計服務效能並依普查作業進程辦理每年一次的農林漁牧業普查實地訪查與工業服務業普查試驗調查"},{"start":2995.543,"end":3005.82,"text":"各單位詳細重點請參閱報告內容那本種出115年度預算案編列情形稅入編列139萬3千元那稅出編列17億9千136萬4千元比"},{"start":3010.868,"end":3031.702,"text":"比114年度預算數增列3億5038萬元主要是增加每年辦理一次的每5年辦理一次的農林榆木葉普查正式查訪作業經費2億7696萬1千元以及辦理每5年一次的公安服務業普查第二次試驗調查作業經費2893千元詳細編列內容參閱14月至18月那至於直轄市"},{"start":3042.268,"end":3051.912,"text":"115年度直轄市和縣市一般性補助款按災害準備金第二預備金科目編類請請115年度編類直轄市和縣市一般性補助2501億元災害準備金50億元及第二預備金80億元檢要說明如下一般性補助款的一個直轄市和縣市一般性補助款"},{"start":3063.115,"end":3086.923,"text":"因為財政收支化分化修法以後地方貨幣中央統籌分配稅大增4165億元115年度達8841億元各市縣政府已有4組財源支應其自治事項為落實地方自治精神確保各市縣政府所獲增財源能夠妥善運用及使全體國民受到均等的照顧及補助事項施必助"},{"start":3089.064,"end":3110.163,"text":"配合做合理的一個調整配合調整的事項主要是包括中央對直轄市案限制補助辦法第二條一般性補助的補助範圍包括經常性普及性基本建設或違運性質財政均衡等事項115年度直轄市案限制一般性補助款分配情形"},{"start":3113.422,"end":3130.212,"text":"本總署也邀集中央各機關和各市縣市代表共同延伸確定有關各項補助經費的內容和用途說明如下經常性普及性基本設施和維運性質的專項補助1764億元那主要包括教育部主管813億元"},{"start":3133.494,"end":3155.253,"text":"辦理遏制未滿6歲的一個幼兒教育與照顧衛福部編列 主管編列337億元是未滿2歲嬰兒嬰幼兒的一個照顧交通部主管編列155億元是辦理TPAS行政院通勤月票執行計畫安生模圈道路交通系統建置的一個計畫"},{"start":3157.93,"end":3180.367,"text":"以上各主管部會委員115年4月17黨團協商結論將由其所屬委員會審議社會福利經費406億元是補助各市縣政府低收入戶身心障礙老人婦女青少年等兒童的一個經費財政均衡補助及考核獎勵331億元主要是保障115年各市縣政府貨幣中央統籌分配稅"},{"start":3185.131,"end":3193.512,"text":"一般性補助款和計畫型補助款不低於114年度貨配合度在他的準備金部分現行中央政府"},{"start":3195.07,"end":3211.174,"text":"自九一十一年度每一年編列災害準備金二十億元或五十億元一百一十四年度考量台灣未處地震帶及受極端氣候影響各種災害規模頻傳規模逐漸擴大為即時因應災害及應變需求均編列五十億元第二預備金的部分"},{"start":3219.696,"end":3228.503,"text":"以112年、113年、144年度為例分別申請94、83和99億元經行證人家控管實際核准動資分別73億和77億元均在手邊的第二預備金範圍內核准利是78、88、78所以中央中央企制"},{"start":3244.875,"end":3264.307,"text":"總預算自籌編至今通過執行已上去一年所以為因應年度進行中發生籌編預算時未予考量事項臨時正式按照客觀環境所以我們橫走計三年度實際動資請以115年度編列第二預備金80億元以上報告 敬請各位委員請指教及支持 謝謝"},{"start":3267.517,"end":3268.038,"text":"主席 各位委員"},{"start":3284.013,"end":3309.105,"text":"僅檢要報告之下113年度中央政府總結算及附屬單位結算及總計表中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第四期特別結算本部以依憲法規定的期限完成審核各縣市政府年度總結算亦經各地方審計處事在法定期限內完成審核提出重要審核意見2456項"},{"start":3313.928,"end":3334.864,"text":"114年度的中央政府半年結算報告 本部已完成查核各主席政府半年結算 已經本部地方審計次數在法定期限內完成查核提出重要審核意見63項3 更新強化審計功能以60串新核心價值未來6年以諸位審計"},{"start":3336.846,"end":3346.234,"text":"永續審計、破壞熱性審計及共生善治等四大面向除夕、生化、監督、洞察前瞻的三大政府的審計功能專業發展"},{"start":3348.961,"end":3368.047,"text":"並處事以創新思維進進審計業務 四更細優化審核報告編報內容及諸性揭露除細深化重要施政議題查核專章並彙編行政機關優良實務案例推廣扣竄情形及優化總結算審核報告諸性揭露"},{"start":3369.682,"end":3386.036,"text":"導致多元的資訊科技推動數位審計發展 具體作為包括磁吸、客沖、數位審計模組及工具應用大數據分析與AI輔助審計 並推動公司部門集合單位專業交流與分享"},{"start":3387.18,"end":3393.503,"text":"及建立審計資料中心統整應用查核資料6.加強審計培力後職專業發展除去促進審計專業培訓鼓勵數位住址學習並擴展國際審計視野"},{"start":3402.918,"end":3430.081,"text":"七 更新推展公民參與 近三年度已完成專家諮詢計五百五十三次並發布一千七百九十五軸的重要審計資訊八 在審計綜合績效方面 審核一百一十三年度結算依法修正稅入收入結算增列十六億元減列十六億元依法修正"},{"start":3431.379,"end":3450.166,"text":"稅出支出結算 增率42億元減率54億元考核各機關之績下並報告監察案者66案提出重要建立改善意見341項認為有可能提升效能及增進公共利益提出建立意見1013項提出議警性意見232項"},{"start":3455.029,"end":3464.043,"text":"稽查財務上司維持報請監察案處理者上案移送司法機關偵辦者5案通知各機關查明處理者117案"},{"start":3467.177,"end":3487.246,"text":"一百一十四年度預算情形本部級首職一百一十四年度稅務預算兩百五十一萬元累計收收兩百八十六億元稅務預算十七億九千六百三十三萬元累計支付十七億九千四百四十二萬元"},{"start":3488.487,"end":3517.323,"text":"二、一百一十五年度施政計畫重點包括一、六十監督履行財務課則強化洞察提升施政效能邁向前瞻斬惡趨勢脈動以及創新思維啟動審計革新三、一百一十五年度預算編列情形本部即所指一百五十年度稅數預算案共編列兩百三十二萬元稅數預算案共編列十八億餘元"},{"start":3519.861,"end":3534.224,"text":"治安各機關單列預算分數如下 省紀部單列預算編列14億元省紀部台北市省紀處單列預算編列8,250萬元新北市省紀處單列預算案編列7,552萬元桃園市省紀處單列預算編列6,671萬元台中市省紀處單列預算編列7,289萬元"},{"start":3548.126,"end":3570.4,"text":"台南市審計處單位預算案編列7354萬餘元高雄市審計處單位預算案編列8981萬餘元以上為本部及所持115年度施政計畫重點及預算案主要說明敬請主席 各位委員 女士先生會議支持與指教謝謝"},{"start":3574.144,"end":3588.214,"text":"謝謝陳審計長的說明跟報告那接下來我們開始答詢我先做以下的宣告每位初期委員發言時間8分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間是4分鐘今天上午10點截止發言登記現在依登記的順序請登記第一位嚴寬恆委員進行質詢"},{"start":3600.809,"end":3607.751,"text":"主席 各位歷史觀人大家早主席有請農業部胡次長好 請農業部胡政次先請我們那個主計總署的陳主計長陳主計長"},{"start":3626.227,"end":3643.632,"text":"委員好主席長早先跟你討論民生方面的問題主義總署的主要工作是針對社會指標國民所得家庭收入調查及各項物價指數的進行統計但是我們今天要討論就是說這個數據本身如果無法反映真實"},{"start":3644.232,"end":3671.89,"text":"那政府的市政方向是否會產生偏差這個有很大的一個疑慮101年家戶可支配所得中位數佔平均數比例是87.45%但是到了113年已經降到84.55那這顯示家戶所得平均數的成長遠快於中位數所以所得分配不均的趨勢越來越明顯那主計總數對外發布的五等分位倍數從101年到113年"},{"start":3674.852,"end":3700.545,"text":"只增加了0.01倍那這個數據呈現幾乎是完全沒有變動無法解釋這個民眾對於說薪資分配不均身為壓力巨大的感受落差那是不是可以解讀說大眾所關心的這些分配問題已經無法單靠五等分配倍數來展現這是第一個問題第二個問題就是我們家庭收支調查的樣本數從103年以來長達11年都維持在"},{"start":3704.207,"end":3709.071,"text":"16528戶這11年以來全國總加戶數母體增加了超過97萬戶以桃園為例母體戶數這11年來增加了26.48%但是本數卻始終是1500戶"},{"start":3727.079,"end":3740.25,"text":"第十七期調查的可支配所得便利數介於1.6%到1.9%是民國84年以來各期最高的這就代表統計誤差正在擴大"},{"start":3743.035,"end":3754.721,"text":"那民眾要知道如何對這份數據有信心那我們身為專業的統計單位嘛那什麼時候要開始著手校正有沒有要校正先問我們主計總署這兩個問題"},{"start":3758.53,"end":3787.244,"text":"我們一般抽樣的一個案件數並不是重點啦而是說抽樣的一個那個有沒有精準就是那些樣本有沒有精準分層有沒有分層的好不清楚請你大聲一點好不好就是說我們抽樣的樣本數並不是說因為我們是整個22縣市全部去做抽樣嘛那大概如果個兒直轄市做差不多1500個樣本這樣子但是問題就是說你有時候增加樣本不見得說對它整個"},{"start":3788.044,"end":3811.174,"text":"有很大的一個那個所以本身我們目前一般像我們是抽出1.9嘛1.8那但是也都高於每日的一個抽出的樣本那所以這個部分就是看我們分層抽的一個準確度這個部分我們是會加強這個部分那你如果增加樣本數不見得能夠增加"},{"start":3811.334,"end":3837.691,"text":"那怎麼樣能夠增加準確性啊所以這個部分我們就會盡量來研究那我請我們這個處長跟您報告一下就是說怎樣來改善這個盡量簡短好不好 時間有限其實在做調查的時候那個樣本數不是很絕對的我們再抽得好的就好所以我們在分層這一部分我們做了很大的精進我們結合大數據的那個內政部那個國土資訊系統那個整個分層我們大概"},{"start":3839.393,"end":3855.244,"text":"所以目前的整個那個雖然是一萬六千多戶但是我們的那個整個便利係數有沒有控制大概那個千分就大概在那個百分之二以內所以這個部分是大概這個部分好再請教"},{"start":3856.685,"end":3885.308,"text":"收支調查是政府制定社會福利最低工資還有付稅調整的重要指標如果說系統性的偏差我們剛剛提到這個部分的話都將會失之毫厘失之毫厘就是差資千里所以在政策的制定如果因為這是偏差那可能就會導致後面整個整個一個系統性的一種不完整性一種敗壞那我再提到就是說像"},{"start":3887.41,"end":3906.843,"text":"我們看到這十五個執行率連續三年到四年未達八成的基金特別是國立空中大學還有國立文化機構作業基金還有課發基金這三者連續四年執行率甚至不到四成所以連續四年執行率不到四成這代表這些計畫從頭到尾都在亂編"},{"start":3910.626,"end":3935.07,"text":"你們有經費有編制但是呢這樣子的一個執行率那麼低那根據預設法第66條你們隨時可以派員赴各機關實地調查實際的一個情況那你們到底有沒有去調查有沒有善盡督導考核那各種這個基金他會計制度實施狀況的責任有沒有去督導跟考核啦"},{"start":3935.43,"end":3948.755,"text":"那如果有 為何執行率會這麼低那如果沒有那就是代表說主計總署執行現況完全脫節僅靠資本來管理上千億的特種基金預算來 總長 主委總 呃 總委長"},{"start":3951.656,"end":3977.052,"text":"我們大部分都有請同仁到各基金去做輔導啦如果像這些那剛剛談到的那個科學園區管理作為基金這個部分執行比較困難大部分主要是台中啦台中那個園區他擴建二期那個局長那個時間有限啦我想說預算不是提款金所以納稅的錢不能亂花我要求是不是一個月內提出改善報告好不好"},{"start":3977.492,"end":3984.22,"text":"好 那個先請回主席 我們那個農業部次長來了嗎農業部正次來 有請"},{"start":3997.484,"end":4022.772,"text":"來 副市長委員好我們從小這個小時候就被長輩或老師或者是家長告知說馬鈴薯這個發芽有毒不能吃如果發霉或是那些都不能吃有毒那但是只要說一袋馬鈴薯裡面有一顆兩顆我們基本上整袋就都丟掉了整袋就不敢用了但是現在我們政府告訴我們說只要剔除有問題的馬鈴薯"},{"start":4024.272,"end":4039.541,"text":"而且加工用的馬鈴薯這個龍許的那個那個所謂的龍奎鹼的一個毒素龍許只要放寬到200ppm那其實這個龍奎鹼是很毒的他不只是會破壞我們的細胞他甚至還有神經神經的神經毒素啦"},{"start":4039.921,"end":4064.577,"text":"所以輕則就是嘔吐腹瀉然後痙攣但是如果嚴重的他血液血壓下降發燒還有神經系統的病狀甚至於死亡所以說你怎麼有辦法確認說你發現這一顆丟掉其他的沒問題這第一個啦那第一個是辦法假設這些是流入的加工端啊流入加工端那到時候誰敢吃誰要負責啦"},{"start":4065.177,"end":4089.543,"text":"你們邊境防疫也好,農業部也好,衛福部也好,然後邊境防疫讓他進來,然後到了加工端那這樣子你要告訴國民說沒問題,沒問題拿掉了我們一年從美國進口五億顆啊,五億顆,那有多少人可以去抽檢?有多少人可以去檢查?有辦法五億顆都看過嗎?這我不相信啦,這我不相信,沒有人做到滴水不漏啦"},{"start":4090.824,"end":4107.654,"text":"還有外部說文宣上面說會進行市場沖運我們要等到他聯絡市場聯絡加工端變成食品之後再去沖運那這樣子到時候這些本來是美國業者要自行處理的問題"},{"start":4108.815,"end":4136.348,"text":"現在跑到我們台灣之後然後由我們台灣政府要多自人力物力然後去抽撿然後我們的基友人員還有我們台灣的加工業者我們台灣的人民變成白老鼠變成有這個中毒的風險他本來是他們國內美國要自己處理的現在變成我們台灣要幫他處理所以我們台灣現在我們的農業部、衛福部還有我們這些部會所長好像是在替美國服務咧不是替我們台灣人服務咧"},{"start":4137.769,"end":4162.239,"text":"這部分我想時間有限啦我們台灣的食品安全不可以一退再退啦縱使要討好美國也不可以一退再退啦這部分那我想時間有限我就要求我們農業部這個部分跟我們惡業部要從實要怎麼樣能夠完全的檢測這五億顆的馬鈴薯要怎麼樣滴水不漏做到你們可不可以提出一個說法"},{"start":4163.615,"end":4185.923,"text":"在檢疫的部分,農業部是負責檢疫啦那剛才委員,你講到農奎檢,農奎檢那是衛福部,因為這個是食安的問題在檢疫的部分,我們是針對三樣啦一個就是說,你這個進來,你有沒有八種病蟲害第二個,有沒有帶土第三,你有沒有發芽,發芽有沒有超過0.5公分市長我知道,農業部有農業部的職責,衛福部有衛福部職責"},{"start":4187.884,"end":4188.604,"text":"我們要做到低水不漏"},{"start":4226.877,"end":4232.278,"text":"主席 麻煩請審計部陳審計長請主席講審計長委員好聲揚早齁我們外交部有捐助一個民主基金會啊那我捐助的章程的內容你了解嗎?了解"},{"start":4249.977,"end":4278.79,"text":"他是為了要主要的目的是因為中共在全世界打壓我們我們有邦交的國家不夠那所以為了要推廣這個外交的工作所以放在國會可以辦一些國會外交所以董事長是本院的院長對不對那他原來捐助成立的目的是為了要推廣民主跟自由這一次啊台灣中國國民黨的這個黨主席去中國訪問"},{"start":4280.806,"end":4306.307,"text":"他申請基金會補助申請基金會補助補助要給補助計畫他申請說明書上面說他是去中國推廣台灣民主自由的理念我看全程的新聞媒體從頭到尾沒有講到台灣沒有講到民主沒有講到自由"},{"start":4307.503,"end":4322.365,"text":"那這樣我想要請教說省進部的立場我們這個補助提一個書面文章所作所為都跟這個書面的表示不相干或是甚至做相反的工作這樣可以申請補助嗎"},{"start":4325.197,"end":4346.954,"text":"這個基金會它有一些規定,如果你要申請補助或者足行都要依照基金會的相關規定來處理這一個部分,外交部是它的主管機關外交部在財團法人法裡面,外交部要負責查核"},{"start":4347.614,"end":4372.728,"text":"如果有問題外交部要給他一些相當的...是外交部查核不是台灣的這個民主基金會這個組織在查核因為他申請基金他申請480萬是向台灣民主基金會申請喔我現在要問你的就是說他申請的申請書的內容說要去中國推廣台灣的民主自由這個制度給中國了解"},{"start":4373.909,"end":4390.937,"text":"但是我看到整個媒體報導各種新聞完全都沒有這些內容啊我的意思是說 我就是要問你這個問題我的申請 如果有一個人的申請書跟他所作所為完全不相關甚至背道而馳"},{"start":4392.148,"end":4412.808,"text":"那這個事情基金會應該要怎麼處理基金會要根據他整個執行的狀況來先第一段他要審核他要審核完以後才來進行第二階段如果他同意或者是他不同意外交部是主管機關也要把關"},{"start":4415.67,"end":4437.525,"text":"第三段如果這個問題確有那個的時候我們也會督促外交部你要好好的來處理那這個案子啊報導或者去了解他還沒有辦理核銷作業我請教你假設他真的這樣核銷啦假設他這樣核銷因為現在準的單位"},{"start":4438.625,"end":4462.511,"text":"現在是本院的院長在當這個基金會的董事長啊那他裡面的董監事如果就給他過了假設啦我現在是假設性問題那你審計部最後能有什麼作為我們這一個案子如果他過了那外交部他再次主管機關依照財團法人法所以你意思是說外交部可以跟立法院的"},{"start":4463.772,"end":4477.35,"text":"當院長所主持的民主基金會跟他講說你這個使用的項目跟你的作為跟你事實上你的申請完全不符所以外交部可以跟他講說不可以發嗎這是他是主管機關所以外交部要用公文告訴立法院"},{"start":4478.615,"end":4504.177,"text":"院長所主導的民主基金會不可以補助是這樣的意思嗎這一個是要看他的事實依照他的事實來認定他的事實經過外交部認定有一些瑕疵或者是有一些剛剛講的一些假設的問題那外交部要主管機關要基於他主管機關的監督立場"},{"start":4506.098,"end":4526.689,"text":"那外交部 我再問一個繼續假設性的問題外交部如果已經正式發文給民主基金會說這不符合目的結果民主基金會還是一定要補助 那會怎麼樣那你們本紀不能有什麼作為我們會依據外交部的一些發文或查核的結果來處理這些相關的賬戶問題"},{"start":4528.954,"end":4550.28,"text":"相關賬戶問題什麼問題他就是給他假設退一萬步講說真的給他的480萬然後外交部也根據你現在講的原則跟他審核說因為不符合這個目的那也不符合你的作為所以不應該給予補助可是民主基金會仍然要給他補助的時候你們審計部最後能做什麼處理"},{"start":4552.3,"end":4571.209,"text":"我們會進行 要外交部在督促外交部來做處理如果外交部會做適當的處理我們會給外交部相關的那外交部能做什麼樣適當的處理就是他主管機關主管機關問題是那個民主基金會他就覺得他比你大"},{"start":4572.748,"end":4591.254,"text":"我們在立法院 多少人講說我就是比你大啊我要給你要怎麼樣做壞事人不得到制裁 你要去制裁外交部我是因為是假設外交部已經正式跟你回答說這不符合規定你不可以補助 那台灣民主基金會仍然要補助"},{"start":4592.414,"end":4618.745,"text":"國家有國家的體制要依照國家的體制那我現在就是要問你國家的體制嘛你們審計部是不是要送監察院還是要移送這個檢調單位處理我是要問你這個啊我要是督促外交部外交部就替他的職責跟他講說這不合法了當然他外交部有不合法但是這個案子堅持在那裡我們審計部當然會去了解啊了解完了以後如果事實就如假設一樣"},{"start":4619.565,"end":4646.243,"text":"那當然是說有的事我們就會送監察院啊我們就會因為這個如果有不法的我們送檢調啊這個是當然是我們手持部的職責啊中華民國的立法院現在加起來的多數黨立法院的多數黨簡直就是太上皇了你送監察院也沒用了他監察院預算都不給你過監察院的代理院長跟我講說他們很可憐連電梯都沒辦法開啊因為電費都被刪光了"},{"start":4650.507,"end":4676.946,"text":"親口跟我講的所以現在就是無法無天啦我現在跟你講我們大家講清楚外交部有他的職權他應該去查核那外交部如果已經據實以告跟他講說查核的規矩查核的結果不符合規定不應給予補助這所有兩種結果有一種就是民主基金會從善逐流嘛那我就不補助另外一種就是民主基金會說不我仍然在補助"},{"start":4678.502,"end":4688.224,"text":"因為我的董監事 我人多啊所以我的董監事仍然要補助那補助了之後你給他送監察院 沒關係啊 監察院等於是被他廢掉了"},{"start":4690.377,"end":4710.323,"text":"所以我來講 我們很美的啦台灣的國會現在就是 我就是比你大啦就是有人說 我就是比你大國家的體制什麼東西都不重要好 我是要讓你了解說你有可能會面對將來有可能會面對這樣的困境請你回座啦我不是對你回敬 我只是說我問的問題該怎麼處理 你要想清楚請回座來 我們請這個 關務署"},{"start":4720.766,"end":4749.393,"text":"親愛的官現在這個發芽馬鈴薯這個查核標準有沒有變動報告委員是指檢疫的部分檢疫的部分是農委會房間署不是啊你們不是要配合嗎那不然就請農委會跟這樣的衛福部都一起上來大家一起回答制度"},{"start":4750.888,"end":4753.17,"text":"在我們這一次改變的部分在簡易的部分我們是這樣子本來如果"},{"start":4767.301,"end":4794.919,"text":"因為馬鈴薯進口有三種一種是種薯進來做種那第二個就是鮮食用的第三個就是用加工用的那過去啊這個鮮食跟加工只要驗到有花芽超過0.5公分或者是有其他這個龍奎鹼超過200ppm在衛福部這邊查到這個的話 餘率退那目前鮮食的部分還是維持本來的做法"},{"start":4795.479,"end":4821.984,"text":"那加工的部分如果我們發現在邊境外部發現200ppm以上這個馬上就必須要退那如果他的這個有帶土有8種病蟲害那另外就是他的花芽超過了0.5公分以上的話我們會要求這個推運或者是銷毀不能帶土也不能有病蟲害"},{"start":4822.344,"end":4845.394,"text":"那這一次的改變就是以前整個都退運這一次是不是還要進一步檢驗加工的部分加工的部分對那這個加工的部分標準是不是跟日本的標準相同比日本還嚴因為日本只有驗兩種病蟲害不是啦我是在講那個發芽的部分發芽的部分日本沒有管他不管發芽的部分日本發芽的進口發芽的他也加工對"},{"start":4846.997,"end":4869.427,"text":"因為他們只要美國提出那請惠福不回答剛剛講到那個龍奎鹼在發芽的部分產生的這些的有可能產生的這些的有毒物質要怎麼處理這個部分就是其實那個馬來西亞有沒有發芽跟龍奎鹼的濃度也不一定相關所以我們現在就是說我們其實整個檢驗的標準整個實驗的標準全世界一直都沒有標準"},{"start":4870.347,"end":4897.022,"text":"一直都沒有改變那這個龍奎減200ppm是從107年就訂到現在全世界有沒有一致的標準目前大概加拿大這邊也有採用這樣的標準只有加拿大嗎還有對加拿大那日本有沒有日本不驗啦因為日本生產很多馬鈴薯所以是日本本身也在處理馬鈴薯這個東西國人關心就是有人會利用這個東西是天尼"},{"start":4897.822,"end":4919.607,"text":"要求再要求然後再製造台灣跟美國的緊張然後之後再拿這個東西打說政府無能沒有辦法保護人民的食品安全他們的目的是要講這個這是要做政治操作所以請你們要小心回答請你們一定要把這件事情向國人清楚地澄清好不好好 謝謝吳秉瑞委員執行接下來我們請第三位林德福委員"},{"start":4934.345,"end":4940.008,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請陳審計長還有財政部的阮次長還有農業部的胡次長還有衛福部的張次長"},{"start":4959.796,"end":4985.787,"text":"還有食藥署的蔡副署長委員好那個審計長你好因為我國花生進口辣椒粉含工業用的蘇丹酮素等食安的事件危害國人的健康引發民眾的恐慌那審計部有提出這個專案審計報告同樣的道理"},{"start":4989.528,"end":5012.787,"text":"本期也希望審計部針對馬鈴薯食品安全的議題進行一個專案調查從農業部、衛福部、馬鈴薯加工廠所在地地方的衛生渠道到底投入多少的預算設備確保民眾食品的安全尤其是實驗室的檢驗能量是否足夠"},{"start":5013.968,"end":5042.624,"text":"本期是希望說審計部啊會後啊能夠給我們所有立委啊一份書面的報告可以這個很重要按照過去這個衛教宣導都在告訴民眾勿食用花芽的馬鈴薯然而近期馬鈴薯的爭議啊許多網紅分享不正確的信息告訴民眾切掉花芽部分的還是可以食用"},{"start":5044.364,"end":5066.589,"text":"現任食藥署江志剛署長在2018年在台大當醫師的時候寫了一篇文章看見綠頭的薯條怎麼辦內容提到花芽的馬鈴薯龍葵鹼含量則在1000ppm其中花芽的馬鈴薯這個"},{"start":5071.615,"end":5089.072,"text":"龍奎鹼含量更高達2000ppm可見專家都認為花芽馬鈴薯食安風險非常的高那我請問衛福部遇到花芽馬鈴薯建議民眾要如何處理衛福部有關花芽馬鈴薯一定是整顆丟棄不能使用"},{"start":5089.741,"end":5104.713,"text":"要丟棄嘛那媒體報導說林口長庚醫院臨床毒物中心的主任顏忠海指出即使僅有少數馬鈴薯出現化藥的情形其所含的龍葵鹼"},{"start":5105.987,"end":5124.149,"text":"能可能污染同批其他正常的馬鈴薯呼籲主管機關應要加強龍葵鹼的抽驗不管今天進口美國馬鈴薯是加工用的還是實用的最後都是到消費者的市場變成民眾吃下肚"},{"start":5124.83,"end":5142.839,"text":"你不管是加工也好其他進口也好幾乎都是下渡那為何使用馬鈴薯輸入簡易條件馬鈴薯花芽必須整批退運而加工的馬鈴薯花芽後卻換寬整批馬鈴薯有條件的進入加工廠處理你的看法勒"},{"start":5143.539,"end":5152.209,"text":"報告委員,現在的做法是這樣,如果是農業部在邊境發現有發芽的馬鈴薯,那他們會把這些發芽馬鈴薯剔掉,那我們會針對這批馬鈴薯,會再去做抽驗,這個有關龍葵檢"},{"start":5162.461,"end":5188.971,"text":"那當然如果驗出超過200ppm就會整批退運本席是希望農業部跟衛福部要以民眾食品安全作為優先所以本席也希望說加工馬鈴薯花芽應該整批退運你不能留存因為留存以後都會到消費者身上讓他們來承擔食安的風險你認不認同這個有關花芽部分可能是農業部這邊"},{"start":5190.291,"end":5202.945,"text":"對不對 你們要說清楚講明白啊花芽不代表就有龍葵茧因為那個必須要在經過花芽不代表就有龍葵茧因為花芽在0.5公分以內的話那個是"},{"start":5205.387,"end":5231.396,"text":"都會被承認的日本人根本就不檢查有沒有懷疑你不要講日本我們今天是針對我們食安食安的風險因為你為什麼整批進口加工就可以來做處理不加工的話你就是只要有花學它確實有龍葵鹼有花芽就要整批退這個裡面就是考量到為什麼食安是多重要啊"},{"start":5232.156,"end":5241.39,"text":"對不對 不要把人民的那個健康來開玩笑沒有錯 我也是國民啦我的家人我的親友都是國民我們非常重視這一塊啦"},{"start":5242.847,"end":5263.446,"text":"那在農業部的部分我們是防疫主要是說防疫就怕這些流入的馬鈴薯它流到田裡面又去種種的時候把國外的病人菌把它帶進來這個是我們所擔心的至於食品安全的話這個要麻煩衛福部來做回應本席先跟財政部跟農業部確認啦美國加工用的馬鈴薯在海關的貨品號"},{"start":5265.763,"end":5273.812,"text":"列的號碼是不是07019000-003因為昨天我的助理有特別打電話去聯繫農業部的防檢署確認而農業部在4月15日衛防委員會書面報告裡面提到新檢疫條件2月6日"},{"start":5286.166,"end":5300.945,"text":"實施到現在為止上有美國加工用的馬鈴薯輸入但是本期請助理查了一下上述貨品號列的馬鈴薯今年3月從美國進口的馬鈴薯數量有137公噸"},{"start":5303.508,"end":5319.809,"text":"價值是221萬新台幣外界沒有辦法分辨哪些是加工用的馬鈴薯哪些是實用的馬鈴薯那我請問農業部跟財政部美國加工用與實用的馬鈴薯都在一個貨號如何來避免外界的誤判"},{"start":5320.31,"end":5334.44,"text":"是 報告委員到目前為止美國進來全部都是現實用的都是生鮮的 沒有加工的那第二個我們也發現這個貨號是相同所以已經跟財政部提出申請相信在最近的這個時間以內財政部就會給我們分開"},{"start":5336.781,"end":5357.788,"text":"那因為美國的這個加工用的這個馬鈴薯啊七月之後才會進口所以這一段期間我們應該財政部因為人民很關心這個事情因為根據媒體報導 衛福部對進口馬鈴薯目前才一般的抽批 查檢那抽驗率2%到10%而已那請"},{"start":5362.329,"end":5389.72,"text":"這個衛福部分別說明美國食用與加工用的馬鈴薯依規定抽檢龍奎檢含量超過200ppm時會如何處置不管是否食用或加工都是整批退運或銷毀嗎包委員就是如果我們一旦驗到這個龍奎檢超過200ppm我們整批退運也就是說它一批裡面可能有三個貨櫃這三個貨櫃就是退運或銷毀一定不能進入到我們的市場"},{"start":5390.808,"end":5413.828,"text":"因為人民非常重視就是這個食安的問題農業部房檢署邊境除批茶葉馬鈴薯打開貨櫃發現馬鈴薯花芽依現行的規定可封存然後運往加工廠若該批馬鈴薯食藥署沒有抽到茶葉"},{"start":5415.49,"end":5428.967,"text":"農業部是否會通知食藥署去補查驗該匹馬鈴薯的龍奎檢到底有沒有超標會不會 說不會因為如果龍奎檢超標那請問各主管機關你們要如何處理"},{"start":5432.247,"end":5443.635,"text":"就是我們會驗龍奎檢重金屬跟農藥殘留這三項只要超標就一定退運或銷毀我是希望說這個要嚴謹農業黃檢署打開貨櫃沒有發現馬鈴薯花芽但是藥署抽到要檢驗龍奎檢請問該批馬鈴薯是否需等化驗後出爐才能將整批貨櫃送往加工廠加工"},{"start":5459.967,"end":5483.764,"text":"對 一定是這樣 是 一定要等他的確沒有超過兩百多億因為現在的老百姓他們非常非常關心有關於馬鈴薯的融回錢因為這個跟很多民眾在吃馬鈴薯以後到底會不會產生食安的問題我認為這個是非常非常重要我希望各行政官員本著良心"},{"start":5484.825,"end":5511.36,"text":"自己吃才能讓一般的老百姓吃啦你不要說因為我檢驗的時候然後這個上面規定怎麼樣我要是去放寬然後到最後出問題那時候亡羊補勞都來不及了啦我們要事前去杜絕緩緩那這個最後一個議題關於中央政府永續發展政府的債券目前看來財政部"},{"start":5512.741,"end":5526.874,"text":"115年115第一期的公債金門大學這個校舍興建外發行金額為新台幣4億元年期為30年那我請問財政部115年是否還有其他計畫會發行永續發展的債券"},{"start":5531.958,"end":5545.322,"text":"我們除了金門大學的這個永續件的發行之外另外我們就是高雄的航空站那金額是790億那我們現在在福島他能夠發行永續債"},{"start":5547.463,"end":5576.761,"text":"那這部分我們會積極來推動目前除了中央之外我們也希望地方政府能夠加入來發行所以現在目前中央跟地方已經發行了大概345億所以未來我們會跟金管會還有櫃買中心我們合作尋找相關案員來發行相關的永續債好 這樣我了解其實剛剛前一位委員所講的有一些我都聽不下去"},{"start":5577.83,"end":5605.23,"text":"大家都很清楚 沈記長那個竹記長你上來我請教你你那個電會說電梯沒有電沒有電會可以支運可能嗎那是經常門啊你就是預算沒有過一樣可以發會啊那個都是在騙老百姓不是他如果沒有編預算就不能沒有編預算拜託電會沒有編預算你每年都編了沒有編預算"},{"start":5607.089,"end":5625.976,"text":"經常門欸那不是資本門欸對不對你組計長你做那麼久難道連這一點你都不懂嗎對不對因為他業務全部被減的百分之九十七啦九十七啦去年的時候經常門都可以用去年用的今年都可以用"},{"start":5626.994,"end":5646.095,"text":"對不對你就是預算沒有過也可以用大家心知肚明對不對不要騙老百姓經常門啦你的水電該用的本來經常門就可以用資本門我不敢講因為一般經常門主要是人事費和業務費為大宗啦那再來譬如說"},{"start":5648.025,"end":5675.439,"text":"電匯沒有嗎所以它可以流用的部分你這個電匯沒有嗎你大宗的被減掉很多債不要去扭曲啦電匯每年固定編的你喔身為主計長你一定要講實話讓老百姓清楚我們是針對問題不要去扭曲去騙我們沒有扭曲啦好不好謝謝好謝謝林德虎委員的質詢下一位請我們召委李燕秀委員質詢請"},{"start":5678.344,"end":5687.015,"text":"謝謝主席我可不可以邀請農業部胡政次以及衛福部莊次長以及相關食藥署的同仁一起上來謝謝委員好"},{"start":5692.589,"end":5710.483,"text":"次長你好這一次有關美國馬鈴薯進口的爭議我剛才回應說我們很多規定都沒有調整但是檢疫署在今年2月6號對於檢疫的條件其實還是有做調整把它分成加工跟先時分流的管理這個管理是調整的對不對這個管理的調整"},{"start":5713.806,"end":5718.052,"text":"我個人認為真正的風險不是一顆丟掉或要不要挖掉的問題真正的風險是目前的整套配套措施能不能去撐得住這個調整的機制對於國人食安的風險到底是什麼"},{"start":5731.209,"end":5755.794,"text":"我就看到現在的防線設計關鍵字關鍵字就是指定加工廠我們現在有一道邊境管理第二道就是送到指定加工廠不合格的我們要整箱整顆的銷毀那合格的才能合法的輸入那我要請問我們現在境內關外的新規定指定加工廠的廠商有幾家我覺得是17家申請"},{"start":5759.562,"end":5767.673,"text":"有在進口有17家申請為國內的指定加工廠指定的地點有幾處?進口商有幾處?指定的地點有幾處?那有足夠的篩選機器嗎?"},{"start":5774.462,"end":5788.735,"text":"我們現在總處理量未來預估馬鈴薯的總進來的量到底有多少公噸有沒有辦法處理消化馬鈴薯進口約四成的量就是進口占比約四成的量有沒有辦法去做這樣的篩選機制"},{"start":5790.516,"end":5815.941,"text":"報告委員是這樣子如果在邊境我們檢查到他如果你不要再重複之前講的話因為你現在增加了你新做的這個調整機制有分成進口跟加工跟鮮食有問題的我們送到第二關你第二關我的問題是你第二關沒有把關好我第一關邊境發生問題我的加工的那個篩選的地點沒把關好放了水"},{"start":5817.301,"end":5837.608,"text":"那吃到東西就是國人的健康問題你懂我的意思嗎我知道我邊境的同仁管得很辛苦看得很仔細你後面指定加工廠處所以我剛才為什麼這樣問你我問你說你到底有幾家廠商然後指定的地緣到底有幾處未來的總處理量可以有多少公噸要不然"},{"start":5838.988,"end":5861.179,"text":"進來這麼多我只有能力看那麼一點都塞在那邊或者沒有仔細看後面這是我們食安的問題這是我第一點要凸顯的問題房間署一再的強調邊境的檢查加上加工廠的篩選你們有雙重的機制但是這個監管機制是不是像我們現在檢查大蒜一樣大蒜我們看到有沒有跟土合在一起我們是用這樣的判定機制嗎"},{"start":5862.557,"end":5890.933,"text":"目前我們是減一還是我們是不定期的你是每一顆都看還是說我們在不定期的抽查在邊境我們是如果申報來的話比如說有每一批每一批我們是抽減百分之六十以後會再增加嗎因為以後跟美國進口馬鈴薯量可能會再增加你會再增加抽減的計次量嗎這個百分之六十已經很高了 包委員因為一般都在百分之五 百分之十以內"},{"start":5892.074,"end":5912.474,"text":"所以所以你也不打算再調高就對了沒關係不是你的答案你認為60%已經很高我不知道國人滿不滿意我個人是不滿意的那我現在在問一直在講日本模式總理長一直在講日本模式日本模式對於相關的加工廠有明確的稽查機制也有罰則我們現在有沒有我們有啊已經有了嗎有啊"},{"start":5914.73,"end":5928.583,"text":"你相關的罰金包括廢職指定資格的門檻你現在都已經有完整的機制我們如果再同意就是同意一般是如果查驗到我們就退運啦"},{"start":5930.665,"end":5938.671,"text":"有沒有罰則機制如果他有漏檢查或者有什麼樣的弊端的話有3萬到15萬我們用植物防疫檢疫法裡面第17條第一項的規定是罰3萬到15萬來換國人的健康3萬到15萬國人可以接受這個是我提醒的點"},{"start":5948.278,"end":5975.105,"text":"我希望你們回去再思考一下胡次長我現在請衛福部的次長我現在要把焦點從看得見的發芽轉到看不見的化學殘留剛才大家一直在談龍奎檢但是事實上有另外一個問題房間署這一次的新規定有強調說要求美方在輸出前要在那個發芽要塗一個發芽抑制劑叫做克普芬要再塗一個發芽抑制劑"},{"start":5975.945,"end":6004.444,"text":"克普芬是好東西嗎看起來它可以抑制馬鈴薯不要太快發芽但是塗了之後對身體克普芬從國際的評估標準我看到的它對於造成身體的內蜂蜜干擾還有輕人代謝致癌會有疑慮所以這件事情塗了這個事情抑制它發芽但是塗了之後對身體卻有傷害那我再回來看那個次長"},{"start":6005.643,"end":6021.091,"text":"克普芬我們現在在歐盟的標準是0.2ppm那我們現在是30ppm對不對我沒有講錯嗎這個標準我沒有講錯嗎歐盟對於克普芬的殘留是0.2ppm"},{"start":6028.795,"end":6032.517,"text":"不過其他各國都是30,其他各國都是30沒關係,我講的標準沒有錯,我沒有亂講嘛我們台灣,歐盟對於克普芬的殘留容許值是0.2ppm我們台灣目前容許殘留值是30ppm好,除了一個輪迴檢之外我們現在要求美方競選馬鈴薯,亞圖"},{"start":6051.266,"end":6059.873,"text":"克普芬這個東西但是我們卻高於歐盟的這個標準是150倍這個150倍對我們身體的傷害是造成內分泌的影響還有包括致癌的影響這個我覺得是你們要去思考的那我現在再請問就是說包括克普芬還有包括克普芬產生的代謝物三粒本胺克普芬因為會產生三粒本胺我們未來"},{"start":6077.028,"end":6089.843,"text":"有沒有抽檢的比例除了大家說看到這個發芽的部分其實看不到的是另外一個對我們身體的隱憂這是我擔心的那我們到底有沒有抽檢的數據跟抽檢率有沒有設定這個標準有沒有"},{"start":6090.578,"end":6119.066,"text":"有 這個都有那包委員 這個其實都107年定下來的那跟其他 雖然歐盟是0.2但是美國整個都是30因為我擔心我們現在大量進口美國的馬鈴薯因為台美貿易的關係我也不反對但是國安的需要我是要把關的不管你是什麼時候定我覺得國安不能夠忍受現在我們對於科普分包括三立本案的殘留值超過歐盟的150倍這是我要提醒你的地方是跟其他國家都是30%"},{"start":6119.986,"end":6136.503,"text":"不要各位講這是跟美國Codex一樣但是對歐盟卻高於150倍我相信對國人來說食安過去蔡政府是五個洞現在在內政府變成七個洞十個洞我相信是國人不能夠接受的大家國人對於喜歡吃薯條吃馬鈴薯片"},{"start":6139.046,"end":6164.405,"text":"因為大家都特別是年輕人很喜歡吃這個對身體是長遠的影響這也是我在那監督的立場署長我要提醒的地方你們回去思考我認為國人不能接受你們要開放這些東西對於殘留值的標準要再嚴格把關比照澳門的標準是我要提醒的地方我的時間到我先接下來請主記長你們先請回主記長我最近我還是要關心一下不是主記長對不起沈記長"},{"start":6169.288,"end":6183.936,"text":"最近台灣有幾個重大的公共工程的爆發的事件我在媒體上有看到包括第一件是移民署的防彈背心採購案第二個是我們包括月初我在媒體上看到的是七街碼頭城鄉工程案"},{"start":6187.118,"end":6203.135,"text":"這些廉政署現在已經接獲已經介入調查包括在媒體看到的相關的一些事件我們審計處也會不會也介入調查也會不會去進一步做了解會因為剛剛講的那個黃蛋背心是我們審計部查出來的好"},{"start":6204.316,"end":6228.931,"text":"主席講 這個第一個案子是因為採購的偽劣品蒙混這是一個重大的工程的一個弊端那另外一個是重大工程異地失作看起來好像圖利 包括工程延宕這共同的問題都是履約審查跟監督的機制失靈了就是在工程還在進行當中我不希望每一次都是審計處在事後我們才發現問題"},{"start":6230.592,"end":6251.851,"text":"在執行契約的過程當中我們如果能夠發現問題當然是更好所以目前包括我們七階的工程我剛剛指的第二項是255億的工程港澳公司表示施工的計畫包括建造審定包括變更施作的地點會不會影響招標的條件跟公正性"},{"start":6252.492,"end":6273.262,"text":"不是港務公司說了算 我要提醒就是說我覺得包括防彈背心案也是就是說都是事後我們才發現問題所以我覺得我們勢必要再更有想辦法或用不同的一些工具 輔助工具或者用不同的機制去對於正在進行招標的相關的案子不定時的去做更多的抽查"},{"start":6274.442,"end":6284.409,"text":"通而來說對於採購的一些項目包括重大工程我覺得有沒有涉及契約條件實質的變更內容我覺得我們也應該要有更多的一些啟動的專案調查機制列入我們平常在重點審查的項目"},{"start":6295.848,"end":6299.37,"text":"這個齊結總經費高達950億所以不容讓他這每塊錢都是民脂民膏我們不要事後才發現事後才發現罰款不是我們的目的"},{"start":6314.039,"end":6328.556,"text":"那我另外一個主席講 我要提醒我們最後的記者給我最後一張圖我們現在機關的改善每一年我看到說有七成好像改善但是還有三成仍待改善我覺得這個三成的部分25%仍待改善"},{"start":6330.618,"end":6359.13,"text":"所以我覺得怎麼樣有更多的工具跟牙齒讓我們審計處對於各單位待改善的項目比例應該逐年降低想辦法了不然我給你人對不對我們去年我們多給你一個副主計長又給你人地方也增加人我都希望我們的審計單位可以發揮得更好包括我們電腦輔助相關科技AI輔助工具可以做更多的查核這些比例"},{"start":6359.73,"end":6374.676,"text":"我希望都可以降低可以抓出來然後改善我們現在各單位在執行的相關的業務跟招標的項目可不可以我們都會這一種沒有改善的我們都會追蹤再來啊這些沒改善的大部分都"},{"start":6375.376,"end":6377.078,"text":"通知相關單位像這一種的會一直堅持不改善"},{"start":6391.298,"end":6409.05,"text":"有問題的不改善就給他明年預算就給他少一點啊對不對多的錢沒有給其他表現好的單位啊不然誰被審計到有問題的不改善預算來照樣給他這審計處再跟不再沒有意義嘛對不對主席想點頭了我們明年我會繼續追好不好謝謝"},{"start":6418.905,"end":6443.575,"text":"接下來請賴世保委員質詢謝謝主席以及各位先進有請我們農業部的次長胡政次請胡次長衛福部的莊廠次財政部的阮次長三位長官一起"},{"start":6448.01,"end":6470.251,"text":"委員好我要請教農業部還有衛福部長官這個很簡單的就是一個問題就是行政院長說進口的馬鈴薯要竹科檢驗做得到做不到這個在加工廠裡面或者在配合檢疫的指定加工廠裡面事實上是可以做得到的"},{"start":6471.962,"end":6493.276,"text":"邊境 邊境進來邊境的話我們沒有百分之百邊境做不到啦 那個那個衛務部呢 來莊次長做得到嗎依照規定我們是抽驗 就是驗百分之二 百分之四如果不合格全部退是不是對 或者消毀是不是對 退運或消毀來 莊次長"},{"start":6496.179,"end":6521.518,"text":"請問你海關邊境進來的有多少人海關多少人可以檢驗馬鈴薯的多少人人數是吧我們沒有專門為這個設定一個專門的團隊我只知道八十幾個人你們做得到嗎儲物科這樣檢驗做得到嗎全部我們加起來就是在運用人力大概一百多人是啊這個你知道進來有幾個來 農業部的長官來來來"},{"start":6526.593,"end":6533.55,"text":"我們進來一批多少幾顆啊幾顆最近進來不是一批現在一年的話是兩萬七千噸啦"},{"start":6534.394,"end":6539.117,"text":"幾顆啦幾顆一顆大概300公克所以一櫃的話25公噸進口的量喔一萬噸的話是3333萬顆2300多萬顆2.7萬噸的話將近一億顆一億顆不只一顆喔算起來快五億顆喔一億啦大概一億一億顆"},{"start":6560.511,"end":6582.604,"text":"他可能每次去選 我做不到啦不是 院長的意思是在加工廠裡面是逐批 逐櫃 逐科啦那個是在加工廠裡面我們做我講的是因為他給人家感覺是邊境管理啦邊境的話我們如果驗到不行就整櫃就退了所以這個就很明顯的他這個東西不讓腦子發熱啦說可以逐科去檢驗啦逐科去驗嘛 然後"},{"start":6587.226,"end":6615.796,"text":"可以的壞的就把它退掉哪裡有這樣子 這整逼退啦對啊 現在就是這樣子啊要整逼退啦 整逼退啦使人民的食安遠高於沒有任何的政治利益可以來交換啦這個請我們兩位長官要把守這個齁這個某種程度等於農業部跟衛福部打臉行政院的院長的講法啦好 兩位請回喔"},{"start":6616.98,"end":6639.839,"text":"我請教財政部的次長 阮次長委員好現在因為中東戰火 每天一天數電到底是要停火不停火 要停止封鎖不停止封鎖不知道變化太大了所以就有人想到說今年的報稅能不能夠延後一個月報稅可不可以"},{"start":6640.899,"end":6663.628,"text":"跟委員報告我們去年是因為美國宣布我們有一個對等關稅32%所以那時候為了考慮到民間的需求所以我們是有展延一個月但是今年到目前為止我們現在股市已經上了三萬七了所以整個來講股市上非常穩健所以目前是沒有這樣的規劃"},{"start":6668.038,"end":6691.383,"text":"沒有這樣規劃 去想一下喔 過兩天你可能就重溫了喔總之請你來問的話 院長一答應你就乖乖答應喔這你們應該想的喔來來來 問問你啦 你是管這個國庫的財政部這次取得國票的經營權 老實講這是一個全世界都是"},{"start":6692.683,"end":6702.775,"text":"工轉民啦 沒有民轉工啦這是開世界潮流的倒車啦齁只有一個 也變成第九家的光谷航空喔是吧對嗎 委員的意思是"},{"start":6707.056,"end":6726.415,"text":"第九家的公股黃金黃金現在八家范公股現在第九家你回答是不是嘛 第九家嘛目前當然 因為還沒改選完嘛改選完就變第九家嘛改選完以後要看改選出來以後的結果他想要這麼小的一個size這麼小的一個國票金"},{"start":6727.95,"end":6752.997,"text":"你為什麼要併他只有一個原因我再猜了只有一個理由嘛也要推動公共併嘛結果以後他要併到我的公共銀行裡面因為現在民間銀行的金空越來越大越來越大我也要有競爭力所以我想辦法我也提升我的公共販公共的競爭力才有道理不然的話我實在想不出道理為什麼要推這個東西啊"},{"start":6753.337,"end":6773.389,"text":"其實跟委員報告 其實最主要是國票清 那麼這個二十幾年來內鬥不斷內鬥跟你有關的 你這件事跟你有關的公股的 潘公股一直都在裡面 可是呢一直沒有辦法解決這方面的問題內鬥就多了喔 內鬥就多了喔 何止這都有 你就介入"},{"start":6778.113,"end":6800.693,"text":"沒有講真話 市長 你在這裡沒有講真話整頓國家金融的程序啦好偉大 你怎麼可以這個長臂拐斜的拐到民間這個全世界自從蘇聯解體以後 全世界就一股公變成民的熱潮"},{"start":6802.028,"end":6813.134,"text":"全世界都是名誉...宮古的、韓國的變成名誉化比較多而不是像現在是開倒車所以只有一個原因啦我猜啦"},{"start":6814.147,"end":6833.935,"text":"你準備要推動 進一步的推動公共病目前是沒有這樣的規劃我現在跟委員報告我們現在會介入這個案子因為老實講 國票監控是我們現在所有監控裡面最少的我們要介入其實主要就是"},{"start":6840.077,"end":6857.372,"text":"市長啊 你今天人蠻力 你今天都言不由衷啦我這個沒有時間問你了 現在真的好好的問你這一題啊今天叫言不由衷 滿口胡話啦好 請你回答我們請一下陳主席長喔謝謝請一下陳主席長跟沈記長一起沈記長"},{"start":6862.865,"end":6867.427,"text":"2031年人均GDP高出日本韓國一萬塊我們的主計總數平均薪資四萬八"},{"start":6883.872,"end":6906.367,"text":"請問主席長平均是四萬八六成以上的領不到平均薪資啦現在景氣是都集中在AI概念股你知不知道如果今天我們股票說剛才講了財政部長說一直漲很熱三萬七、三萬八如果把台積電抽掉"},{"start":6907.288,"end":6922.236,"text":"有人給他算一算啦如果把台積電今天沒有台積電我們大概就兩萬億我們就兩萬一千點我們就兩萬一千點所以這是暴力的台灣非常嚴重的經濟荷蘭病"},{"start":6923.752,"end":6950.914,"text":"我查了我們現在今年1月到3月上市股票漲幅大於高盤大盤的211家11%左右上櫃116家8.33左右上市櫃公司總共有1933家換言之現在台灣老百姓是只要你的資金都沒有去買股票的話你就相對吃貧富了"},{"start":6952.398,"end":6973.627,"text":"如果你要不要買到AI概念股 那你也一樣就變這個樣子 就變這個樣子所以我們是嚴重的扭曲 哇好看 非常好看這個叫什麼 賺的指數賠了股價 不賺錢主計長 我們再看下一張 我再給主計長看一下有沒有機構發布 樹民經濟信心"},{"start":6979.676,"end":6984.438,"text":"警戒掌網下滑 消費醫院下滑 股市投資下滑37%認為今年的GDP 超過7%因為你講7點 主計長說過7點多吧超過7%的37%60%認為CPI要超過2%這個數字"},{"start":6999.935,"end":7015.305,"text":"是老百姓普遍人心聲不到四成的人認同你的講法說我們今年GDP會高於7%即便高於7%也都是AI概念股台積電如果抽掉只剩2萬億你有沒有回應一下"},{"start":7017.505,"end":7043.691,"text":"對就是AI概念AI的部分的確佔重要的部分但是其他它也帶動其他沒有啊我的沒有啊對所以它譬如說它上游的原料啊那擴充產能廠房增添設備沒有啊帶動建材還有金屬這些的一個成長所以它不是只有AI概念回到上一章你就可以看嘛"},{"start":7045.331,"end":7054.533,"text":"你這個大盤,這大盤就是台積電撐起來的嘛大一大盤的只有11%嘛上櫃的大一大盤的只有8.38%就很明顯加起來不到兩成啊那我要上升喔,我們沒有所謂荷蘭病啦因為荷蘭病它只是集中一個產業但是我們其實相對的產業其他其他傳統產業也有上升只是它上升的幅度沒有RI的一個那麼大"},{"start":7072.136,"end":7088.428,"text":"所以這個部分我們也要看你去查看我都跟你講數字啦好啦 主席給我十幾個信你請回吧好 謝謝來 沈縣長最後一個問題 沈縣長你有糾正過我要替台北市政府降花回來吹的水庫長期被台電壓榨它回吹水庫過去四年一度店賣給台電1.5到2塊錢左右"},{"start":7097.045,"end":7122.527,"text":"光電4塊到5塊 風電有時候高達7塊錢一年它賣了2億度電了所以等於我們一年來講的話台北市政府就被台電坑了4億啦檢察院糾正過你們糾正說收購匯率偏低現在還偏低 全部檢察院對這個事情怎麼處理"},{"start":7123.592,"end":7128.016,"text":"因為這個是綠電喔因為它水利發電是綠電綠電光電4到5塊風電有時候高達7塊5到7塊但是為什麼翡翠水庫就給它收1塊半到2塊錢而已過去4年"},{"start":7138.877,"end":7147.38,"text":"這一個部分是我們審計部去查的有這樣的一個現象後來監察院在看我們的審計報告的時候會把這個問題再調查一次所以他們提出糾正這個我們會繼續追蹤"},{"start":7164.226,"end":7184.422,"text":"我們會追蹤怎麼樣是一個合理處理的方案把一個事情 把他合理就是台電加價嘛對不對這個是我們同仁努力的最後一個 現在什麼高德地圖啊在台灣很好用的就是一個APP"},{"start":7186.684,"end":7206.224,"text":"裡面就是放這個讓紅綠燈描述很準的結果說這個可能有治安的問題可能要什麼 一個非紅供應鏈我就問你 請問非紅供應鏈是不是在神蹟部的神蹟範圍裡面要查所有的零組件通通不可以沾到大陸一點點"},{"start":7207.641,"end":7232.307,"text":"這一個部分我們要看國家的規定國家的規定如果都是說不可以為什麼會規定不可以是不是合理我們也會進行了解所以這一個部分就是我們審計在做的每次審計不容易做到一個舉例我們要發展無人機無人機全世界最大戰略力是大中國大陸"},{"start":7233.649,"end":7252.462,"text":"百分之七十關鍵民主建也來自於中國大陸所以你阿拉伯阿拉伯你看剛才講高的地圖這個我們不是跟大陸買的啊是跟荷蘭買的啊可是呢它什麼樣它裡面有一點東西是大陸的啊就變成這樣沒來沒去都會遇到"},{"start":7254.187,"end":7279.768,"text":"所以這個規定啊 它任何的規定啊我們會注意到它規定的一個造成是不是普遍的不適合我們會提出我們軍人穿的衣服 對所以我們也在查你的投標稀珠是怎麼規定的去好好去落實 如果做不到也要讓行政部門知道這個其實"},{"start":7280.649,"end":7289.536,"text":"不容易做到啦好 我們謝謝 後續的再請用書面回覆喔好 接下來我請第六位 林黛華委員 質詢好 有請主記長委員好"},{"start":7305.626,"end":7317.44,"text":"好 本席要針對這個國營事業特別是台水來就教我們主計長我認為在台電糖水"},{"start":7318.171,"end":7341.918,"text":"台電中油它的財務好嗎不好那你們怎麼救呢那你們無非第一個就是我們專案特別預算那第二個我們這個年度的稅收超徵你全額的撥補那現在願意讓中油跟台電差別匯率"},{"start":7342.978,"end":7361.755,"text":"中油它可以有浮動油價台電它也可以有離風跟尖風的一個差別電價台水有沒有針對高耗水高用水的用戶給予它較高的匯率的工具沒有"},{"start":7371.089,"end":7397.402,"text":"北水有 台水就沒有台水你們有啦在王部長任內有開一個叫做耗水費誰收啊 水利署收去充實他的水資的作業基金所以台水還是沒有所以他既然不能你要求他開源那節流他完全都沒有辦法有任何的開源的空間"},{"start":7398.422,"end":7417.725,"text":"那節流呢他只有負債好所以我們來看你們現在呢又需要這講到了電網韌性幾次的颱風水也太重要了所以呢也發起了這個水韌性所以呢積極的這個降漏八年八百億八年八百零八億的降漏計畫"},{"start":7418.746,"end":7429.956,"text":"本席就用這個公共計畫來看台水長年負擔公共建設當中所造成的財務黑洞好我們來看台水面臨結構性的夾殺"},{"start":7431.974,"end":7445.665,"text":"它雙重的重壓國營私業就是台水配合國家政策跟自身財務永續之間的遭受劇烈的矛盾既要配合政策要建構水韌性的社會安全網要減碳這樣的一個國家級國際級的這樣的一個目標"},{"start":7450.509,"end":7463.634,"text":"那呢但是他面對公共工程當中他的這個通膨包括現在從此今年開始我們的漏水工程以及進入到深水區什麼意思?簡單的工程都做完了現在就那個比較困難的地質呢非常的這個崎嶇入段崎嶇地質非常的"},{"start":7473.918,"end":7475.68,"text":"所以在雙重壓力之下出口又封死他"},{"start":7489.272,"end":7513.038,"text":"水價長達30年未調整的僵局聽好本席不是支持漲水價我身為國會議員身為民意代表這個是政治議題就民生的角度就工業的跟民生農業用水的角度包括工業用水的角度我都在這個應該要考慮相關的因素我不是鼓勵漲水價但"},{"start":7515.359,"end":7534.769,"text":"至少本席倡議的這個高耗水的企業台積電你要不要課啊課啊你知道你現在給他的耗水只佔他如果你課徵他的比照北水的耗水率那個幾乎佔了他百分之一啊"},{"start":7535.909,"end":7551.24,"text":"整個成本感覺好像幾百億在他整個營收幾兆的那個幾乎是幾百分之幾的成本你不讓台水去渴出口又封死他所以現在808億的公共預算降漏"},{"start":7552.02,"end":7574.377,"text":"那其中634億的固定資產成本是誰在乎?台水在乎喪失自我修復的財務彈性所以呢本席要點出的是台水的財務破動並非源於管理不善而是被政策物價雙向的擠壓而剝奪了他定價權的必然結果好我看主計總處啊您到底呢是這個"},{"start":7577.079,"end":7581.68,"text":"這個裝睡的人呢覺不醒了你是沒看到這樣的預算幻象嗎你們給他的808億給他20億的增資4年80億每年20億的增資喔好那我們看喔114年去年這個審計部給他的決算虧損這個49.7億"},{"start":7598.524,"end":7607.689,"text":"今年行政院預算稅前虧損竟然行政院自己說你預估會虧多少錢今年會虧69.15億喔擴大政府核定的降漏計畫增資每年給他20億這誰都看得懂啊"},{"start":7615.413,"end":7621.696,"text":"你今年預計他會虧69.15億你今年八十億分四年要求他增資只給他20億會虧69.5億你只給他20億那又不給他出口讓他針對高用水用戶去收也沒有你們也不給他財務預算專案的預算的年度預算給他也不給然後呢這個超收的稅收也不全額撥補好那這個增資啊"},{"start":7645.205,"end":7649.248,"text":"這個還是有貓膩的什麼貓膩在裡面這個針織啊 台水區負擔什麼責救跟攤體啊所以你們給支持他去做漏水工程你們都給的不爽快啊好 那核心是什麼本席要問了"},{"start":7661.878,"end":7685.449,"text":"四年總計八十億的增資 這是你們給他的喔連這個彌補單年度的虧損都遠遠不夠 更遑論支撐未來高達八百零八億的降漏計畫這是在推動建設 還是看著國營事業慢性破產什麼叫做慢性破產 除了八零八億他一定做越多虧對過之外 他現在負債多少錢"},{"start":7686.611,"end":7703.485,"text":"一千億啊這一千億怎麼來都是這樣來的都是推動公共建設而來難道是董事長總經理跟所有的主管把錢吃掉了嗎他們經營不善嗎沒有耶這現在背負的一千億跟銀行借錢來辦這個降漏"},{"start":7706.731,"end":7725.107,"text":"從全部都借錢欸好我說你們還是沒看到這個假性資產的投資說好了8084投資這個一般商業的基礎回收的回收期是10到15年那其實這個8081就商業的角度它的內部報酬率是多少"},{"start":7726.769,"end":7746.766,"text":"負2.7耶 表示說絕對料 做多少料多少然後回收好啦 勉強啦 我們一定要給他算回收啦因為他有很大的這個社會外部效益啊給他算到外部會社效益之後 他也等42年回收耶我本來一般就10到15年就回收了 因為你說要他自負盈虧啊結果勉強的把社會公益心算進去 也要42年啦"},{"start":7752.81,"end":7779.088,"text":"這個社會公益性 強化社會的水潤性我們減碳這不就是典型的公共建設的性質嗎當然要由國家專案預算全額支出而非迫使國營失業來負擔然後來看審計部這個審計部也非常的有趣 審計長您就看一下 等一下你再來回應你們說先看到第六頁"},{"start":7779.608,"end":7785.131,"text":"你們很有趣喔你們這個台水把你們的審計部的意見跟我們立法院報告好啦這邊是112年的報告以嚴謀或依改善措施持續辦理的你們羅列的五項112年其中的第四項說台水你有問題會配合國家經濟建設及永續發展每年投入巨額資金辦理重大興建計畫為部分計畫工程進度落後及"},{"start":7809.203,"end":7832.32,"text":"完成後經濟效益未達預期目標允宜研謀善策哇 這個請神仙來我都不曉得哪一位神仙能夠解決台水的這個負擔完全不給他出入這個也不給他後備的資源只叫他你做你就賠吧那你叫他怎麼研擬啊好 那我們就以808億來看剛才那個"},{"start":7837.562,"end":7866.691,"text":"對你投入倍增這句808億喔你是這個施工工成本是標準的喔過去台灣一公里的管線我只要700萬今天因為勞力成本通膨包括你經過的路段已經進入了這個降漏水的工程的深水區所以你現在暴增你一公里的管線成本是1000萬增幅40%工程效益的銳減因為降漏困難度的越來越高現在每公里找回的漏水量"},{"start":7866.991,"end":7882.997,"text":"大幅減少了百分之五十也就是說省計部啊你看到了說這種投入倍增效益減半的投資模式但是呢為了公共利益的強行推進讓國營事業獨自承攬暴增的單價跟地檢的"},{"start":7886.238,"end":7900.199,"text":"效益將直接託還其財務健康那我不知道您的審計的報告有意義嗎言再把這句話我覺得講得真好言謀善策你的善策誰能夠提供啊好再來"},{"start":7902.142,"end":7912.066,"text":"我們這個政治口號 我說我們要政策目標 808 把它開了可以達到什麼目標一百二十年時我的漏水率要降到10%然後這個微幅的降幅從113年的11.99%要經過8年之後降2.22%的漏水率巨大的代價是台水必須8年內燒掉808億再加上它現在1000億的負債"},{"start":7929.812,"end":7947.989,"text":"這種比例原則 私人投入808億 僅收取了百分之二零二億的漲幅這不是違背了比例原則政府還為了達成政治口號 而不惜犧牲國營事業的存續嗎好 但是我要講 本席是支持808億的 你不要以為我不支持因為這808億啊 接下來的二零 好 謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":7952.145,"end":7955.189,"text":"這2.22億換算的結果是每年省5910萬噸每年省5910萬噸的水我要不要做 要做啊它相當於曾文水庫的11%到12%的有效容量"},{"start":7968.706,"end":7995.258,"text":"它相當於家庭用水如果一個家庭的平均用水一噸是1000公升的話這樣子的每年的這個省水率5910噸的這個每年的省水可以讓16萬個家庭不間斷的使用整整一整年好來看台北市淹沒城市這樣每年省下來的5910萬噸的水如果鋪在台北市的話可以淹沒全台北約21.8公分"},{"start":7997.839,"end":8018.255,"text":"好 那要不要做 當然要做成本與效益的措置的舉證 誰獲利誰買單本席再整理一下 台水公司跟中央政府跟社會大眾財務的負債台水是承擔了808億的巨額負債 跟其中的631億的固定資本中央政府是預算赤字 成功隱藏"},{"start":8019.756,"end":8036.694,"text":"本來這80814你要你的負債的你把它叫台水收了你成功你國家預算赤字成功的隱藏零負擔你社會的效益台水是沒有現金流回報剛才我講很清楚了但是中央政府跟全民享有抗抗的韌性跟減碳紅利"},{"start":8038.436,"end":8041.998,"text":"投資效益他承受了-2027的虧損型的專案42年無法回本中央政府跟社會是無需承擔任何的投資風險政治紅利是什麼台水你這個虧損啊這個經營不善啊結果政府他明早達到的是120年的漏水率的降至10%"},{"start":8058.907,"end":8069.03,"text":"這一頁台水的不可能三角我再次的凸顯了營收成本的天花板跟資本支出的失控跟政治強制的綁架最後來我要求社會任性不應該由國營事業獨自舉債對主計總書跟審計部的最後我本席的結論台水的縮帖講得很清楚了"},{"start":8082.313,"end":8090.356,"text":"這一筆八年八百億要符合你中央政府的降水率降到百分之十去在台水說啦我這個投資無法回收的我邊際消費是會遞減的我虧損會持續擴大的好台灣是一個降水豐沛卻是會缺水的國家"},{"start":8106.064,"end":8124.378,"text":"為什麼台電的強化電網韌性你政府可以編預算十年五千六百四十五億去支持他的電網我們人民不用你憑什麼用水韌性的成本百分百讓台水獨自的來收買單這個主計程車只要你一句話"},{"start":8126.579,"end":8150.065,"text":"計劃該做 全民受益政府買單 如果降落是國家級的氣候防禦工程的話那就應該要讓中央專案預算全部支持提止台湾的潛水 主席長你認不認同 用中央專案預算支持台水808的預算用中央專案預算去解決他1000億的"},{"start":8153.96,"end":8174.863,"text":"好後續請用書面回覆林委員因為已經超過五分鐘要不要演繹那個你用書面回覆我們用書面回覆我們也會請經濟部來做整個一個演繹好謝謝謝謝主席長來我們結束林道化委員的質詢你的答案就是這樣他哪能夠自負盈虧啊"},{"start":8175.403,"end":8189.195,"text":"好 謝謝林委員來 請回我們等一下因為今天質詢時間非常的長等一下在內會委員 委員質詢之後我們休息五分鐘讓大家上洗手間請大家把握時間盡量在質詢之內因為我們今天質詢的議題比較多專案報告時間比較長來 接下來請羅樹斌委員"},{"start":8207.421,"end":8212.388,"text":"好 有請農業部次長跟衛福部次長來 請衛福部次長 農業部何政次"},{"start":8228.041,"end":8241.157,"text":"委員好兩位次長好那我今天呢最主要的討論的議題是在對於美國輸入的這個馬鈴薯當中的檢疫條件的過程因為現在我們可以看到說因為事情爆發之後呢農業部跟"},{"start":8243.96,"end":8253.827,"text":"衛福部就做了很多的這樣子的一個修訂我覺得這是好事但是我們最重要是看到為什麼當初會有這樣一個結構第一個我們看到的是1月21號的時候就有一個修正案的預告它是要調整美國產的加工農業加工用的馬鈴薯的分流管理本來應該是要60天的預告期現在只有14天"},{"start":8264.574,"end":8277.507,"text":"那第二個呢 2月6號正式公告之後呢它刪除了來發芽禁止輸入的這個底線都在放寬那就是邊境放行讓這個有發芽症狀的馬鈴薯可能可以輸入那當然第三個我們看到是說呢這個是特別是專用到對加工業我們也很清楚"},{"start":8283.433,"end":8301.762,"text":"但是這個加工用當中呢是有些就直接到的是那個加工的設備工廠當中但是這個地方的說如果都已經過了邊境這一關了之後他進入到工廠去了這部分檢疫的部分可以到工廠的嗎好那第二部分呢這裡面就是還包括的是第三第四個就是說"},{"start":8302.882,"end":8310.149,"text":"我們的要求就是或是美英或美方的要求說他在輸入到台灣的之前還必須要用發芽抑制劑來去清洗是做這樣的讓他可以不要再發芽等於說讓我們的民眾們在介於他會發芽的會有這個龍回檢的這樣子一個有毒性的這種傷害之下或者是說我們用一個"},{"start":8324.182,"end":8329.165,"text":"發芽抑制劑它可能會對我們的一個肝臟這些部分會有這個傷害尤其我們這個標準呢還比歐盟它現在有放寬了是到0.2的ppm可是現在呢我們是30ppm那這樣的一個差異性我就想問的是農業部跟衛福部"},{"start":8346.115,"end":8370.823,"text":"你們在這個當初的時候你們是採取什麼樣的立場或是你們在參加當初因為這個是根據這個理由上面很清楚他是要根據是要因應要這個我們台美的關稅協議的這個生效在這裡情況之下想問一下當初我們的我們在談判的你們有商量我們談判的這個協商過程嗎還有說說你們在你們是什麼樣的情況是因應到這樣的台美是被告知的嗎先問這兩個問題"},{"start":8375.563,"end":8384.674,"text":"在農業部的部分我們如果是先時用的話所有的規定沒有變那如果是加工用的話我現在是問加工嗎"},{"start":8386.092,"end":8405.906,"text":"是 那加工用的話 我們農業部的角色是三個第一個我們先看有沒有帶土壤帶土壤那個必須要推第二個它有沒有八種病蟲害第三個市長 你的問題 我的問題是在於說你們在當初的在MOU 天定跟ART的放行的時候你們當初有沒有去參與這樣子的一個談判的過程我沒有參與你們在農業部有沒有參與"},{"start":8413.554,"end":8438.493,"text":"農業部 其實我們另外有一位次長因為他現在人出國 我是代理他來備訓我不曉得他是不是有職業參與到這個那衛福部呢 莊次長報告委員 這個食安的議題的檢驗部分我們一直都沒有變 從107年到現在所以驗了龍葵檢 還有剛剛的那個液壓器 液壓數的部分都是依照當時的規定 都沒有改變以上"},{"start":8439.315,"end":8445.188,"text":"但是我的問題是在問說你們當初衛福部有去參與到我們在台美關稅談判當中嗎"},{"start":8448.14,"end":8476.492,"text":"我們沒有這個議題啦 就巴亞的部分不是我們的對 沒有嘛就是沒有 結果全部都是因應到你們事實上是要被事後通知的所以才趕著要在1月21號的時候可能有些結果就沒有沒有 應該是說這整個在整個內容沒有這個檢驗的問題啦對 但是問題是因為這是農業部的問題農業部他把這樣子一個檢疫的條件把它放寬了是這個部分那這裡所造成的效果是我在想"},{"start":8477.792,"end":8496.238,"text":"農業部你們這邊應該說因為現在沒有人證明說你們有參加可是就我們現在談判那邊沒有看到這樣的一個人在裡面這就是顯示出來你們現在遇到這樣的問題的時候你們等於是被事後告知是以我們的要關稅的降免為代價但是可是你們現在的樣式我在想說如果說"},{"start":8497.378,"end":8518.739,"text":"我們的這個市域型沒有在現在4月份爆發出來是不是當然我也知道你剛才有說過現在的這個進口的要去加工的部分是7月才會進來但是如果是他們進口進來了直接後來在防疫上沒有知道而且我們根本就是不太理解的話呢到時候就是廠商呢這個進加工的"},{"start":8519.62,"end":8542.57,"text":"有問題的可能有問題的馬鈴薯就直接進入到加工廠去了然後就直接被製造出來讓民眾去使用了這樣子的一個狀況呢是不可能會出現的是很有可能會出現的所以這樣會說當初我們的農業部還有包括我們的衛福部遇到這個情況這樣的情況是不是根本就是沒有把我們人民的健康都代價"},{"start":8544.962,"end":8572.137,"text":"檢疫的條件沒有放寬這個要跟委員來做說明有有有檢疫沒有放寬啊檢疫的部分你們是已經允許有發芽症狀的馬鈴薯加工的進入啦怎麼會沒有不是他那個是本來是所有的加工也好 鮮食也好是違反三種一套標準在農業部分我們檢疫發現就馬上就退"},{"start":8572.932,"end":8592.13,"text":"我們現在是說你們這邊部分是在說加工的部分直接還到農業直接還到加工廠去好這個部分我看到你們的態度上面事實上沒辦法就是自治務就是不要再問到這裡因為我們現在看到不然的話你們現在為什麼這裡這兩天的時候農業部跟衛福部的官員一直出來在講說我們會真正"},{"start":8594.352,"end":8610.784,"text":"卓院長他也很清楚的說了我們都會逐項的就是整櫃都會去看這個部分就是在做防疫防疫保養的動作嘛好我就這樣子講他說這部分喔我想要就是這個程序上面的一個過程流程我希望說農業部跟尤其特別是指農業部要這個過程要跟本席來做一個書面報告可以嗎"},{"start":8614.92,"end":8632.214,"text":"蘇貞報告可以交我還是跟委員報告一下發芽率我們最近這幾年檢查都像去年只有0.6所以其實目前我們是負責發芽的問題你發芽率很低是為什麼你加了疫菌劑啊疫菌劑下去啊"},{"start":8634.938,"end":8646.894,"text":"所以我跟你講我們就先講到這裡因為我還有其他部分要講但是我想用書面報告來呈現因為這裡面有看到的整個政府團隊裡面為了人民的健康的部分的把關事實上是不夠的好我們就現在沒有放寬啦沒有放寬我們用書面報告給委員"},{"start":8650.54,"end":8652.422,"text":"農業部在南投民間鄉的焚化爐的用地的問題上面我們看到的是部長他在4月16號前幾天前他說了在民間鄉的焚化爐它這邊都是一個農業的特農地"},{"start":8671.061,"end":8689.245,"text":"那他就說呢他會到目前到16號為止他沒有受到南投縣政府的農地變更申請喔沒有喔沒有喔但是他是特定農業區喔那我們現在看到往下看了喔繼續往下看可是呢在這個農業特定區當中我們可以看到行政院在114年去年的3月28號呢就已經呢"},{"start":8691.986,"end":8694.147,"text":"我們繼續往下看財政部的次長請上台我們看到的是財政部的次長請問次長能不能暫停一下時間"},{"start":8722.459,"end":8732.225,"text":"次長好我們看到複稅署在去年的3月20幾號就已經給了我們看到是另外一個問題是我當然要請到是這個審計部的部長陳部長請你上台現在講的是另外一件事情在南投縣的政府我們現在就先讓部長上台"},{"start":8749.801,"end":8764.732,"text":"這個陳部長要跟你講就是南投縣政府他用了這個專款專用的環保基金來去買了這個國土地 國有的土地大概一萬一億元這個部分那可能有違法之嫌啦這邊要跟大家講的是"},{"start":8765.632,"end":8785.573,"text":"看到是剛才農業部也說了 部長說了它是農地 農業專用地然後但是呢國產署這邊就已經給了移的地那這邊呢尤其在資金的上面呢在買的這個地因為特定的環保基金呢它事實上它並沒有用到市售可以去買地它在政策是在買地的部分呢確實有出現就是這邊要請教的是要請"},{"start":8789.883,"end":8814.09,"text":"陳部長您知道這件事情嗎知道那這部分您的看法是怎麼樣因為看起來有一些爭議啦其實能不能買地他有一個收支保管應用辦法他那個收支保管應用辦法裡面是可以買設備但是我們要如果要去查他的立法說明能不能買土地因為"},{"start":8816.31,"end":8836.237,"text":"設備是一般在會計上土地是包括在裡面但是立法因為很多的立一個法都會有立法說明我們會整個了解以後給委員一個報告好可以那另外的農業部次長你們的部長已經說了是要農地農用這部分你們的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":8837.257,"end":8864.631,"text":"對 因為特定農業區的話我們希望在台灣有限的這個土地要作為農用因為這個是非常好的一塊這個特農區那你們就是會堅持這樣的情況嗎我們會 但是因為它我們還沒有送過來我們不曉得他們當時他們會做怎麼樣的一個結論如果送過來的話我們會站在基於保護農地的立場我們會希望這一塊地應該是用在農用上"},{"start":8865.211,"end":8880.428,"text":"OK 好 謝謝農業市長有這個意見另外只是請陳部長留下來 其他的就請回最後一個部分呢 就想要簡單的去回應一下就是說我們看到的是 想要針對的是 能源競速的做結論好 就是 我也許就講"},{"start":8881.309,"end":8904.068,"text":"我們看到的是在審計部在一百三年決算報告當中提出了六項的這樣子一個整體上面對總體所得分配的這個內容但是在因為我們看到那個效果裡面尤其在財政就是在這個薪資這部分它事實上九七成還是低於這個員工的平均數的情形那總之總共我本來有很多部分要去講包括在學校的部分等等的那最後我就想是說想要問的是"},{"start":8907.19,"end":8928.438,"text":"針對這一個你們所做出來的決算報告對行政院各部會裡面的民生措施為達目標或者是財務的維持上面你們審計部做了什麼有沒有給他們做一個具體的時程建議有沒有更強烈的苛責行動因為貧富不均看來越來越嚴重是國際的風險我們這一個部分會每人查"},{"start":8929.588,"end":8948.597,"text":"查到有一定的成效才會結束所以114我們還會繼續查包括改善措施好 那個詳細的改善措施謝謝 感謝劉主席接下來請賴慧雲委員賴慧雲委員質詢完之後我們休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":8953.448,"end":8956.491,"text":"謝謝主席,有請主席長跟沈記長"},{"start":8963.922,"end":8992.019,"text":"委員好 好 那個兩位早安我想延誕了235天那2026的總預算終於互違了那也是今年的總預算從去年的9月1號送進立法院一直被拖 拖到政協會過後終於在前天4月21號互違我想這個是民主化以來在立法院的頭一招"},{"start":8993.14,"end":9015.645,"text":"那立委要在基數基數的這個會期裡頭審議算這個也嚴重的打亂就是立法院以往向來的一個常態一個會期主要審法案一個會期主要審議算的節奏那在這裡我想特別特別在跟那個沈機長在做一個"},{"start":9018.736,"end":9039.514,"text":"請教 審計法第21條就是說審計機構或審計人員對於一個機關違背預算或有關法令的不當支出得事前拒絕或事後剔除追繳這個是不是就是說如果預算花超過的話要不要追回"},{"start":9040.956,"end":9045.6,"text":"因為我們的財務租蓄是在這個預算範圍裡面來執行我們是希望因為現在6月才要審5月現在開始在審到6月才會通過因為預計在6月通過我是希望當時因為我們的預算法有一條是說你可以按照上年度的執行情形來執行"},{"start":9066.279,"end":9074.887,"text":"可是我已經花了 超過了對 我是希望在預算在立法院審議這個問題各位立法委員在審議的時候希望能了解這一點能夠給行政部門當時的依照規定來做的要不要追回因為原則上如果立法院決定的話"},{"start":9087.699,"end":9110.359,"text":"我們是會給審計意見說你這個是超過你的預算數這是我們在預算監督預算執行的基本原則沈記長要不要追回當然是基本原則應該是我們會追這件事情好謝謝要追回沈記長你請回"},{"start":9113.564,"end":9137.379,"text":"我想這個先動資的一個預算動資的一個預算然後被大砍過頭了那我在這裡請教主計長像你今天就是在未來你要省的一個總預算我們的公務預算裡頭有編了一個國外的理會46萬1千可是去年是44萬5千"},{"start":9139.861,"end":9151.149,"text":"那如果被砍到比去年的44萬5千還低的話那你怎麼樣支應還是要勞勢動眾又去追加預算你打算怎麼做"},{"start":9152.205,"end":9179.629,"text":"所以這個部分我們也懇求就像院長講的希望能夠盡量來寬列預算因為我們因應中東一個戰爭本身有很多的一個在預算還沒有追加之前它也有很多一個業務的一個需求所以必須要從原有的經費去做調整支應所以這個部分如果像去年一樣也是譬如說去年像出國禮會是大砍百分之六十是啊 梅軒也大砍百分之六十"},{"start":9180.089,"end":9206.18,"text":"那其實監察院他是全部砍97%幾乎只剩下人士會那所以這個部分本身支援是有困難所以我們再三的請求也再三的拜託各位委員這方面能夠寬烈預算讓我們好能夠來因應中東戰爭的一個相關的一個整個動漲措施的一個調適那另外呢我們也會辦追加但是追加可能就是"},{"start":9206.56,"end":9222.48,"text":"在比較後面才會來辦理追加或者是特別預算這個部分也必須要等到行政院政策系的一個做決定那才能夠去做說到底是要辦理怎麼樣所以你還是要看行政院就是說怎麼樣的下一個指示"},{"start":9223.141,"end":9249.94,"text":"那如果你從預算法第54條裡頭它規定的非常清楚預算沒有通過以前只能依照上年度執行的執行數來執行可是我們如果對照那個會計的業報我們發現今天執行數比去年的執行數高那主席長你要解釋一下這怎麼辦還有就是說本席看來這個是不是"},{"start":9251.737,"end":9274.049,"text":"針對的中央政府在總預算還沒有通過以前還是中東戰爭這些元素以前你已經花了比同期更多的錢那這裡非常清楚就是說你不僅累積了分配數去年增加就是年累積數累積實現數都比去年增加那你要怎麼處理"},{"start":9275.302,"end":9303.8,"text":"所以這個部分就是讓公務人員行政執行方面感到為難的一個地方所以我們一直在說就是這個部分就請貴院還有來能夠儘速把總預算來審查通過就要審了啊就要審了啊對啊延宕了235天要審了那如果像這樣子這個法條又是硬梆梆的定在這個地方的時候然後你們都已經是"},{"start":9304.6,"end":9327.29,"text":"超支了那怎麼辦你要回答我的問題是是我要跟委員報告我們是以整年度來看而不是說一個季啦所以只要整年度我沒有超過那個那個原來所謂的決算數的這個部分所以我們現在是到將近第二季"},{"start":9327.89,"end":9355.262,"text":"你是用整年度嘛那我告訴你的是同期嘛所以說你就是回到整年度好 那個主席長我再請教你如果你今年度的預算數比去年度的預算數還高的話那今年度的總預算案到目前沒有過理論上應該所有動資的上限應該是比去年實際執行的一個預算那個額度"},{"start":9356.142,"end":9380.676,"text":"額度還會那個更低才對對因為你們的收益節省嘛你不敢亂開嘛可是法定的義務收支可以不可以刪如果中央政府法定的義務收支的事項譬如說他人事會他的債務支出他的社會保險社會津貼然後還有最嚴重的軍公教優存的利息補貼你可以刪嗎"},{"start":9382.182,"end":9411.342,"text":"這原則上依法律義務的一個部分我們希望委員能夠盡量支持因為這個刪了將來也是必須依法必須依規定在編列回來可是如果有些委員支持有些委員不支持的話那怎麼辦所以這樣整個造成一個行政程序的一個重複因為為什麼這個被刪減的部分依法律義務我們必須再回編所以這個回編的部分就要再一次的一個追加預算或者是透過另外年度的一個預算再來補齊"},{"start":9412.663,"end":9436.464,"text":"是嘛 所以我想大家非常辛苦我如果用一個那個疾管署的案例你看還議的預算95億至少被立法院通案三減三減大概3783萬這個都是非常嚴重的一個問題所以我想就是也在這裡就是跟審計處跟主計處就是拜託啦"},{"start":9440.187,"end":9458.039,"text":"這個當然大家都非常的辛苦尤其在這一年多以來大家非常辛苦大家就是要省預算你們大概要想出一個比較妥善的一個說明的方式我們再三懇請貴院能夠手下留情能夠寬烈預算 謝謝"},{"start":9459.4,"end":9477.899,"text":"好 主席長 那個五年辦一次的農業 農藝牧普查是不是已經開始了是已經開始了嘛 從4月10號開始了那要到6月30號那我想這個跟主席長提醒 你來自於台南"},{"start":9479.5,"end":9503.551,"text":"台南是所有我們這一次縣市調查的一個指標我們的農戶是最多的是超過超過了11萬那這個11萬是占全國普查那個91萬戶中的12%那你在台南投下了多少資源做多少的一個宣導"},{"start":9506.194,"end":9532.271,"text":"我們這個宣導是這樣像各縣市的部分是由各縣市去辦理那我們自己本身也有編列1600萬在整個做農林漁業普查的部分來做一個宣導所以這個部分我們今年就是五年一次的農林漁業普查我們除了加強人力的一個改善還有一些系統的一個改善你丟了多少的一個預算在這個全國最大的一個直轄市"},{"start":9533.694,"end":9535.461,"text":"因為這個其實是非常重要的"},{"start":9538.496,"end":9563.865,"text":"一千六百多萬但是縣市我們也有補助六十萬那地方政府呢地方政府我們就補助六十萬美容區公所、鄉公所他甚至提供有摸財品的一個誘因這個當然就是說要大家認真的去重視龍一木的一個普查聽說獎金是十萬塊"},{"start":9565.726,"end":9567.607,"text":"沒有 我們也有提供獎金100萬 頭獎是10萬那100萬分配到全國去對 也有提供這樣子主席長 這個龍魚木普茶對農民有很多的好處"},{"start":9581.934,"end":9602.455,"text":"所以我們我來自於就是那個農業的那個選區所以我對這件事情非常非常的一個重視我希望就是說你能更加精準的配置補助的經費然後也對症下藥就是切工還有這個老龍那個人力老化的這一些問題還有產銷的一個失衡"},{"start":9604.997,"end":9626.571,"text":"還有避免果件傷容改善在地的農業基礎的一個特別的依據然後跟著詐騙集團來了現在現有存在的你要大家去網路上來做普查的一個調查那成效好不好"},{"start":9628.482,"end":9649.632,"text":"目前是成效很好目前為什麼會成效很好就是說會在網路上報的大概都是青龍青龍已經報了差不多了然後詐騙詐騙已經跟著來了所以我們希望就是說你書面報告就是說這個你們怎麼預防這一個詐騙好不好給本席知道"},{"start":9650.552,"end":9659.242,"text":"好 谢谢我们感谢谢谢我们来会员委员的质询我们休息五分钟五分钟之后我们开始王世坚委员的质询谢谢大家"},{"start":9691.624,"end":9691.825,"text":"請下台"},{"start":9745.269,"end":9746.169,"text":"這裏面是一間餐廳的餐廳"},{"start":9773.235,"end":9781.999,"text":"好,我們就打個小卡,公園一趟,我們就打個小卡,公園一趟,我們就打個小卡,公園一趟,我們就打個小卡,公園一趟,我們就打個小卡,"},{"start":9804.411,"end":9806.913,"text":"我已經死定了我已經死定了我已經死定了"},{"start":9840.469,"end":9842.55,"text":"你吃別家啦,你吃別家的啊啊我吃別家的啊"},{"start":9870.851,"end":9871.351,"text":"下雨了"},{"start":9889.87,"end":9890.51,"text":"謝謝你們辛苦"},{"start":9922.431,"end":9922.471,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9994.972,"end":10003.818,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會接下來我請王世堅委員大家請陸陸續續就座好不好"},{"start":10005.988,"end":10012.651,"text":"還在洗手間沒關係但是那個大家保持安靜一下來謝謝王世堅委員謝謝主席我請衛福部莊次長"},{"start":10052.997,"end":10055.038,"text":"莊市長這次針對我們自美國輸入馬鈴薯這個"},{"start":10060.851,"end":10088.043,"text":"防疫檢疫的標準這個部分所以我們特別找你來那這個問題針對馬鈴薯輸入台灣那麼他的檢疫這部分的條件現在變成是由關務署還有貴部的食藥署以及農業部檢疫師他們處理我特別沒有找農業部跟"},{"start":10090.387,"end":10099.634,"text":"關路署上來了 不用 農業部你請回因為農業部我什麼都管但是什麼都管不好所以你請回你請回"},{"start":10101.226,"end":10126.405,"text":"那關務署說實在話是無辜啦關務署其實主要是要針對查緝走私違禁品毒品以及關稅徵收管理後那他們本身也已經夠忙啦所以這一次實在是也無妄自在多了這樣子的一個任務所以彭署長請回請回請回所以其實最主要關鍵我們輸入這樣子"},{"start":10130.438,"end":10154.37,"text":"的農產品最重要是要檢疫看他這個是不是會對國人健康產生影響所以最關鍵是你們啦你們的檢查啦你們的檢查我們就是要針對是否含有龍葵檢來做檢測那這個部分就是屬藥物屬就是屬"},{"start":10155.575,"end":10169.432,"text":"那個你們衛福部的責任啦食藥署就是要針對這個部分可是很清楚的針對龍葵檢的檢驗那在我們台灣目前只有兩個機構"},{"start":10171.75,"end":10199.684,"text":"我們目前有六個機構可以檢驗啦又有多少了嗎沒有就是有兩個是認證的其他也是都可以檢驗沒有認證的我們敢給他做嗎而且每一次檢驗檢驗龍葵你知道嘛你是專家每一次檢驗需要五到七天的時間三天三天好就算你三天我們每次進口啊這個頓數我們有百分之"},{"start":10200.524,"end":10226.316,"text":"我們有進口的數量是佔高達15萬噸如果以顆數算那是數百萬顆上百萬顆以上那我請問這麼大的量你要來檢驗就算說檢驗一次要三天在你看只有兩家機構之下我們這個檢驗的量能夠嗎"},{"start":10229.513,"end":10250.665,"text":"是這樣子我們現在是用抽驗的方式所以像從113年到現在總共馬鈴薯進來1652批所以我們就是抽2到10%目前我們是檢驗的61批大概4%左右那這個部分事實上量的目前是一風險"},{"start":10251.485,"end":10273.123,"text":"那如果需要的話我們會再加驗現在量能就已經不足了喔那現在因為我們本來就是我們如果查到我們如果查到發芽我們現在不是整批退欸不是了嘛應該是說驗到龍奎檢超過200批驗我們整批退他一批如果有三個貨櫃三個貨櫃都退"},{"start":10275.064,"end":10299.45,"text":"對啦 我是說 但是如果以農業署那個檢驗的方式啦現在沒有檢驗如果是以發芽 以目測這個標準你沒有整批所以量會增大嘛對 鮑偉 如果說是有看到就是農業部有看到有發芽的部分那他們會把它剔除那我們會針對這一批的部分你放心啦 農業部看不到的啦"},{"start":10299.83,"end":10304.492,"text":"我們會針對這一批去做檢驗我已經認為必須全部寄望於你而且實質下去驗為什麼好你現在說我現在就跟你講投一關用龍奎檢驗好這是第一項第二那之後再來就進來啦"},{"start":10324.527,"end":10338.562,"text":"進來就是加工用的這些變成後端茶葉後端茶葉就是用食品工廠他們自己的管理或者我們怎麼樣去抽茶"},{"start":10339.102,"end":10357.762,"text":"但是在這一個部分我想莊市長你也很清楚我們國內的食品工廠加工廠參差不齊我們都會定期去查核你查核的量能是怎麼樣我請問你查核的量能是怎麼樣"},{"start":10361.789,"end":10389.938,"text":"我跟你講我們說我們這一次同意同意說加工用的馬鈴薯那這樣子就是說我們不整批退啦我們說比照日本的標準很好光是日本在後端這個加工處理方面他要做這一個薯條啊他們就必須要第一個他們有指定的工廠日本政府自己下去指定"},{"start":10391.67,"end":10403.096,"text":"要5A級的食品廠才可以做而且特定的品牌要經過日本政府同意第二個他們要有一定的機器設備這個機器設備這個機器設備是可以"},{"start":10412.521,"end":10433.784,"text":"這個機器設備是可以具備它高度自動化的色澤與形狀辨識機器它是這樣子 色澤跟形狀自動辨識才能夠進入它的加工程序我們有這樣的要求嗎"},{"start":10435.722,"end":10452.92,"text":"報告委員對於我們國內的食品加工廠我們本身就有要求要去做一些業者第一個就是業者本身的設施設備本來就要符合相關的規定那在於他開始製造的之前他本身除了要自主的"},{"start":10453.82,"end":10479.317,"text":"檢驗自主管理之外自主監測那是它自主的第一層第二層的部分必要的一個規模之下可以由第三方來驗證那另外有一個就是委員非常關心的衛生單位的稽查那衛生單位有中央跟地方共同合作的專案稽查之外地方也會依它的產業特色去做稽查我們中央跟地方的稽查第一點都量能不足"},{"start":10480.373,"end":10499.875,"text":"那這個我不怪中央說是不是監督配合不利不是因為各地方政府這樣子的案量也太大了在我們食安法通過之前在這一個部分我們地方政府實在是力有未待啦好了那這樣我這次就只問你就光這個書"},{"start":10502.613,"end":10523.928,"text":"這個馬鈴薯的部分馬鈴薯最重要百分之百加工的就是薯條嘛我現在就問你嘛就光是日本他們說的必須要有色澤與形狀辨識設備這個部分有或沒有我告訴你我問民間的這個相關食品加工廠"},{"start":10525.287,"end":10547.566,"text":"他們連聽都沒聽過啦 人家都很老實回答承認嘛那所以啊 我們要 我們說我們輸入我們的條件要比照日本那我們也相對也要有比照日本的設備跟工廠這樣的機制才能比照不是嗎"},{"start":10549.168,"end":10569.968,"text":"委員您所關心的就是你只說人家他們進口他們拿一些可以寬一點可以輕鬆一點這是好喔這對大家各國之間貿易的往來這對我們台灣也不是不利我們對人家進口的友善方便通關相對他們也要對我們方便"},{"start":10570.829,"end":10588.187,"text":"在農產品的部分但是食品健康的部分怎麼辦還有我再問你莊市長你是專家那如果製成製成薯條或薯餅以後後端你有辦法再去查驗農窺檢嗎"},{"start":10589.998,"end":10599.587,"text":"不可能啦 不是嗎在傳統市場啦或是像全聯超商這邊我們會去抽煙還有原料單我們會去抽煙 對那個已經經過油閘"},{"start":10604.167,"end":10630.733,"text":"經過徵阻 經過N項程序以後我看我們不管食藥署或地方政府衛生局連一件也不會去查啦報告委員如果這個產品進入到工廠工廠裡面的產線從一開始我們工廠有稽查專案我們再去查的時候我現在就請問你可能我問的跟你問的不太一樣嘛我就問你你現在是不是趕快通令這些有做"},{"start":10633.055,"end":10647.475,"text":"馬鈴薯加工的這些工廠請問他們有沒有說自動化的色澤與形狀辨識設備有沒有好不好委員您關心的是選別機對不對那就是一個包括它的形狀"},{"start":10648.356,"end":10663.432,"text":"都比照日本的標準選擇機裡面包括一開始原料去做一些選別然後包括設置的部分那這個部分我們可以再去我們會再跟工廠確認但是基本上這是一個工廠的基本設施設備那麼那個莊市長"},{"start":10666.194,"end":10687.33,"text":"還有最後我請教一個問題就是關於我們重要的藥品的管制因為最近國際上有一些紛擾比較不安先前我們在進口藥品的部分就已經碰到一些干擾那這個問題就是說過去長期以來我們都沒有主動去查核這些重要藥品的量"},{"start":10688.551,"end":10712.627,"text":"能的這個部分結果這個部分我們都是讓藥商來向我們他們反而是藥商主動必須跟我們報備那我們反而沒有反向去主動要求我們有立法是他們一定要跟我們報備如果說六個月之內有缺藥什麼他一定要跟我們通報這個事實上是有法可以罰這個是讓他來報備我們沒有主動去查查"},{"start":10718.691,"end":10743.559,"text":"我認為針對主要的藥品我們會去查工廠也會針對藥商報備來的那現在怎麼會這些重要的藥品有缺貨呢主要有時候是因為突然它原料有缺貨或是說他們工廠要改建那這其實有時候是就是會發生類似這樣的狀況這個我下次好好跟你談一談謝謝你 謝謝"},{"start":10746.009,"end":10763.336,"text":"謝謝王世堅委員王世堅委員剛指導的高包包指定加工廠的部分有沒有這樣的量能跟有沒有這樣的設備可以去做篩檢這是我剛提出來的請莊次長這邊做完整的書面答覆接下來我請李坤成委員 謝謝謝謝主席我們先請這個陳署長"},{"start":10782.114,"end":10798.991,"text":"委員好主席長好現在我們才要來審查今年度的預算其實今年度的預算應該是去年底就要審查了你們這一次的115年度的總預算稅率是編列2兆8623億稅出是3兆350億"},{"start":10805.117,"end":10819.277,"text":"那是在去年的8月29號就送到立法院來了所以超過230天終於要覆為審查了那其實在上禮拜的時候我有問過這個主計長面對這個中東的戰事那其實去年在編預算的時候也沒有遇到"},{"start":10820.031,"end":10840.561,"text":"然後呢 這個上次有跟主席講 提到就是說這個各部會面對這個中東戰事所需要的經費你說各部會大概統籌下來 需要大概1292億啦那時候我有提到說 那是不是用這一個用特別運算的方式來做處理那主席長那時候回答說 那也是一種方式啦"},{"start":10841.181,"end":10861.002,"text":"那想請教一下主席長因為現在預算是附為審查了那應該有機會在五六月的時候通過啦那所以現在院裡面的態度呢因為的確我們還是需要這一筆預算那這筆預算來因應中東戰事那現在院裡面的態度是用特別預算呢那還是用這個追加預算的方式來做處理"},{"start":10862.114,"end":10877.424,"text":"因為目前還沒有定案啦因為如果說特別預算就要擬定特別條例先經過立法院來通過如果用追加預算就是照時間直接辦追加預算那第二個呢當初是提1292億這個是各部會提報的一個數據那還沒有經過它整個的一個補助期間或者是說單價和細節去完成審查但是陸陸續續"},{"start":10889.332,"end":10914.713,"text":"如果以中友來講他除了吸收他那個價格到目前為止是114億左右這個部分但是其他他還有吸收要吸收一些成本因為現在他進貨的一個成本每一個貨輪他都漲價漲得非常的多所以這一些的成本的吸收將來要怎麼樣去做編列預算來給他做一些補貼不然的話整個中友他的一個財務狀況就會越來越壞"},{"start":10916.374,"end":10919.975,"text":"主席長意思是說將來如果不論是特別預算或是追加預算金額會比這個1291還更多就對了那這要看你編列的期限是多少譬如說我如果說補助三個月譬如說我有對所謂的交通的部分公共巴士或者其他的一個補貼"},{"start":10938.9,"end":10967.288,"text":"那這個部分公共運輸的一個補貼那這個部分他要看你補貼期間的多少那因為他有一個油價的上限那我們現在是動漲他有達到上限要補助開始補助或者是說到什麼時候截止或者要不要補計程車或者是其他的一個相關的中油的他補貼的這個部分要怎麼補貼台電的天然氣的部分要怎麼補貼這個部分都必須要一個一個去算那各部分"},{"start":10967.628,"end":10991.147,"text":"譬如說你講的經濟部或交通部或農業部他們已經有一個目前需要的一個數字這個補貼的一些預算送上去所以你才會給我1291億這個數字這是最初期的最初期的所以我才問說那如果我是聽主計長這樣講那是不是這一個因為戰事也不知道哪時候會結束聽聽打打的那所以最後有可能這個數字會再比這個"},{"start":10992.848,"end":11013.01,"text":"超過這個數字1292億就對了是的也有可能啦因為目前我們請他們陸續提報但是這個部分因為像中油的話它吸收的成本非常的多以現在來講它的成本就是整個是高漲起來那將來一定要做有一些的一個補貼不然它可能那所以要用特別預算或是用最佳預算都還沒有確定就對了"},{"start":11013.55,"end":11019.594,"text":"但是的確是需要這筆錢 這筆預算我們這一個穩定物價或是說對於各行各業的補貼其實已經陸陸續續在開始在做了那我再請教一下主席長總預算附有附帶的條件附帶條件就是說要行政院在半年內提出有關居能待遇條例"},{"start":11036.506,"end":11057.403,"text":"還有這個警察人員人事條例的相關修正案還有其他有關軍公教的保障措施那我請問一下主席長那當然這個目前這部分我們是先釋憲了但是因為在野黨有要求然後為了這個讓總運算能夠審查那所以行政院這邊看起來是有讓步啦就是說主委長是說"},{"start":11058.644,"end":11077.665,"text":"對於這兩項的修正案還有軍公教整體待遇調整的想法應該還可以有加強的地方更符合國軍的照顧也照顧到國家財政的紀律也符合憲政的精神請問一下主計長那這個要怎麼做因為看起來就是要再追加預算了嘛不然你們去年就是沒有這筆預算啊"},{"start":11080.31,"end":11102.148,"text":"這個部分我要跟委員報告 院長有指示未來將以體制健全、法治完備、公平、恆平、財政永續這四大原則來做整個檢討整體軍公教的待遇所以這個部分不管是在公平性、恆平性還有財政永續的基礎上"},{"start":11102.968,"end":11120.146,"text":"是要怎麼樣那人總還有跟相關有一些政務委員都一直在開會在模擬這個整個相關的一個我的意思是說這個四個條件那最後要完備但是呢你要符合這個比如說在野黨他們的要求"},{"start":11120.726,"end":11143.172,"text":"那我看起來就是最後你必須要用最佳預算的方式來做處理啦因為你去年沒有編這些預算嘛對不對你是講說軍公教、警校或是說整體的這個公務人員的待遇的調整那看起來就是要再追加一筆預算啦我們會看將來的一個討論出來的一個結果我們來做整個一個裁員的研議"},{"start":11144.492,"end":11159.167,"text":"阿對啊我的意思是說啦因為你不可能沒有回應嘛你變成說你有回應的話這筆預算在去年你們編的時候根本就沒有啊對不對那到最後變成還是要用最佳預算方式來做處理啦有點像是去年的這個進發補償條例的方式了啦"},{"start":11161.229,"end":11186.786,"text":"我們必須要看整個實施的日期因為院長要裁定說實施的日期看實施的日期到底是什麼時候然後來確定說第一個我們的裁員第二個實施的日期有可能比如說明年那就是弄在這個明年的預算就對了這也是一種方式就對了那你們現在在編概算了吧現在編明年的概算了對不對所以應該就把這筆預算把它想進去了嘛"},{"start":11188.932,"end":11215.712,"text":"現在目前還沒有金額因為現在討論的一個還沒有定案這個一直在人總一直在提方式跟一些相關的一個單位來做討論那我的意思是說似乎就是可能要用這一個行政院自己提不管是條例的一些調整或是說我們自己主動提到說如何再讓這個軍工教育這個待遇能夠再增加"},{"start":11216.94,"end":11238.67,"text":"那一定最後是提到錢的問題嘛就是預算啊那看起來如果說是在明年實施那當然就是屬於明年的預算了那可能今年就不一定用最佳預算的方式來做處理了啦大概是這個方式嘛是不是好 OK謝謝主席長那我請這個財政部今天是阮次長來嗎還是誰次長好 請次長那你邊走我邊問啦這個"},{"start":11248.683,"end":11266.547,"text":"2025年 去年 按照你們的資料全國的賦稅收入是3,879億 創歷史新高連續五年呈現正成長然後呢 高出預算數最多其實就是證交稅啦證交稅超出預算數234億 其實是遺產稅但是呢 看起來我們的稅率是增加的"},{"start":11277.623,"end":11287.974,"text":"但是呢 這也是從2021年來首次出現的短針跟運算數相比呢 去年的10針的進額叫運算數短少了143億元那 請教一下市長 這個"},{"start":11293.823,"end":11319.052,"text":"我們的賦稅收入增加但是實際上又短徵,那短徵原因在哪裡?其實我覺得最主要最主要因為署長最主要是因為他去年就是我們在去年結算申報的時候前一年的時候我們是有給他分期或者延期申報那到這個去年那麼申報"},{"start":11320.292,"end":11345.406,"text":"去年申報的時候他就整個要補回來基本上我們雖然是說有一點就是說時申數比預算數要少一點但是少的非常小就是在1%以內非常精準所以我們去年的預算數的估列是非常精準的沒有啦你們算是那個增交稅就不精準啦增交稅一來一往就差了快400億欸你們是"},{"start":11348.648,"end":11354.01,"text":"本來是編2500億,減列了193億,但是實際上超出預算數是234億,我是說一來一往就400億了,這部分就不精準了有時候是這樣,稅收我們編制到執行真的是有一個落差"},{"start":11370.155,"end":11396.861,"text":"真的是很難掌握不過就去年來講我們按來切去所以我是覺得說就是說時增數達到這個預算數大概百分之九十九點幾也就是說差距真的非常小雖然有時候有些稅務是多的那我再問一下啦因為這是其實是今年度的預算在這邊討論因為你們去年收多少今年都已經知道了嘛那明年度的預算呢"},{"start":11400.041,"end":11400.902,"text":"政交稅是連續8個月維持正成長"},{"start":11420.96,"end":11442.186,"text":"現在在估明年的這個預算數還有這個證交稅這方面的話應該是不至於再低估了吧其實我覺得這個國際政經情勢這個變動非常的快速啦有時候還很難說現在就說得準啦這個風雨飄來的時間台灣都屹立不搖了在中東戰事突然期間這個股市"},{"start":11448.272,"end":11470.82,"text":"這個跌跌漲漲 台股還是 我看今天本來有到3萬8對 但是後來還是會掉下來對 我的意思是說 因為第一季第一季其實你們時增數是有增加的啦我是希望說你們在預估這個證交稅這方面的話能夠再估準一點啦不然你們這一個 去年你們認為說今年這個股市沒有那麼熱 還減劣"},{"start":11472.842,"end":11488.24,"text":"簡略的增加稅 實際上沒有啊 還增加了兩百多億啊另外我跟委員順便報告一下就是說我們從今年第一季第一季我們就是全國數來講比上一年同期大概增加一千零一十五億但是就中央來講"},{"start":11489.702,"end":11496.304,"text":"中央其實是少了這個353億因為財務法的關係 因為財務法的關係請市長用書面做回覆待會再請林思敏委員我們待會開放12點開放現場可以使用便當那請林思敏委員 謝謝"},{"start":11522.006,"end":11529.212,"text":"謝謝主席 我請農業部的胡次長還有衛福部莊次長兩位次長好"},{"start":11542.172,"end":11545.976,"text":"請問食用馬鈴薯輸入的檢疫條件,農業部在107年的相關規定是怎樣?對於這些發芽的馬鈴薯,是不是可以輸入?"},{"start":11558.53,"end":11584.968,"text":"在輸入的部分,我們農業部是做三項檢疫的工作第一個,你如果帶土的話,那個絕對不足107年的規定是怎麼樣?是,就是這三項,我們檢疫的部分帶土的,或者是有八種病害的、病蟲害的還有花芽超過0.5公分這三項是我們檢疫的5毫米以上的芽體就不得輸入嘛對,所以這個要全部退運,或者是銷毀市長,我請問你當時的規定為什麼要這樣規定?"},{"start":11588.67,"end":11608.661,"text":"因為帶土的話我現在不是問你帶土的我問你發芽的因為發芽的部分有可能它會流入市面會去種會種毒嗎不是種毒是會去種啦種在田裡面我說吃了會怎麼樣不是吃的是食藥署他們所主管的所以你不管吃的問題對對對我們是負責檢驗的那就請那個董事長可以回答"},{"start":11612.447,"end":11626.439,"text":"報告委員,如果一旦農業部有看到發芽的部分,他們會剔除,但是我們會針對他們那一批沒有發芽,我們會去驗如果驗出龍骨鹽超過200ppm,我們整批都會退印"},{"start":11628.087,"end":11650.745,"text":"市長我問你,我現在問你,吃了這些發芽的馬鈴薯,有可能有什麼後遺症,會不會中毒啊?你從醫學的角度,我們就不介意,不介意發芽就不介意吃吧,不介意吃嘛,吃了會有什麼後遺症,會有什麼後果,可以跟大家分享一下嗎?"},{"start":11653.895,"end":11675.908,"text":"如果吃了會造成身體什麼樣的不適嗎?因為你介意不要吃就可能看含量多少啦,會有不等的症狀如果說那個含量,發芽的他可能會就是那個節儉的濃度會比較高嘛或者未成熟的,吃了就會造成人體的不適嘛那會有什麼症狀?"},{"start":11677.918,"end":11703.006,"text":"可能會有嘔吐、神心性的一些症狀就是會有噁心、嘔吐、腹痛、腹瀉輕微中毒者一至二天內他會自動痊癒重者則因劇烈的嘔吐導致脫水、電解質不平衡及血壓下降更嚴重者會造成昏迷、抽搐、呼吸重疏、麻痺導致死亡"},{"start":11705.108,"end":11720.405,"text":"所以我看到我搜尋了一下我們全國各縣市政府的衛生局啊都在呼籲說請勿食用發芽的馬鈴薯那你的意見呢"},{"start":11721.622,"end":11737.568,"text":"我們也是呼籲民眾如果看到芭芽就不要吃所以吃了就是很可能造成我們身體健康的危害所以衛福部的立場是跟全國各縣市的衛生局是一樣的有做這方面的宣導那我再請教農業部"},{"start":11745.523,"end":11772.249,"text":"胡市長 是那你在今年的2月6號你就公告訂定對於現在美國產加工用的馬鈴薯輸入檢疫條件做出調整是請問為什麼做出調整調整就是把本來進口的不管是先時或者是加工如果一旦查到的話就退運那後來2月6號調整是把先時的跟加工的把它分開"},{"start":11773.448,"end":11785.5,"text":"用途不同因為先時進來先時跟加工但是你現在是針對加工的部分有沒有你就是讓他不是像這個我們剛才講的發血有發癌的就全部不得輸入你現在是讓他輸入"},{"start":11786.752,"end":11809.529,"text":"然後再去做篩檢不是我們有三道把關第一個就是我們如果檢疫的時候發現有發芽的部分我們就會跟這個如果他發芽的太長了或者是比例太高了比如說達到兩三成我們也會要求他退孕或銷毀那如果很少因為過去這幾年來平均"},{"start":11810.35,"end":11838.42,"text":"查驗到發芽是只有0.6如果我們發現了以後我們會要求這些進口人他要提出一個改善計畫其實市長我想問你就是說你新的法規跟舊的法規為什麼要做這種調整你原本規定就是說只要超過5毫米發芽超過5毫米就不得輸入嘛那你現在為什麼再去做不一樣的改變現在是放寬嘛不是 用途不同啦"},{"start":11839.96,"end":11866.034,"text":"他說他這個發芽的長度是多少是你再去查 請加工廠來查驗是不是這樣不是 我們查驗的不是加工廠查驗是他如果要進來的話因為我們有做海關查驗喔不是你查驗 誰查驗不是 我們有檢疫人員在海關就檢查到了如果有的話而且情況不是很嚴重那這樣的情況我們會問這些進口的人你願不願意那是抽檢還是每一顆都查"},{"start":11866.934,"end":11896.394,"text":"你怎麼查那個很簡單我們錢莊貨在一個貨櫃裡面錢莊貨那個很肉眼就可以看得到了因為它是用網帶網帶一個貨櫃有幾顆馬鈴薯一個貨櫃25公噸對啊應該25公噸是應該是上萬顆有吧有有有8萬多顆8萬多顆我們是肉類可以查可以啊因為從這個疫病蟲害也好或者是土壤也好那個就是"},{"start":11897.735,"end":11921.368,"text":"除非說有懷疑它懷疑說這個有黑色斑點我們把它送到我們的實驗給廊長所我們現在的整個我們就是對馬鈴薯的輸入我查到了資料出進口的冷凍馬鈴薯外馬鈴薯種屬除外生鮮或冷藏的主要的輸入國是美國約佔85%還有澳大利亞約佔15%"},{"start":11925.891,"end":11944.125,"text":"那我請問你,你這次是針對美國的加工再做一個調整那澳大利亞進口的部分呢?照原來的方式就排除啦?按照舊法規?他們如果只有針對美國因為那個是美國產加工馬鈴薯的輸入檢疫條件"},{"start":11946.087,"end":11971.975,"text":"那澳國的呢 澳洲的呢澳洲他就是照目前他沒有跟我們談那你為什麼要這樣子去做區別呢美國跟澳大利亞為什麼要做區別因為美國給你們施壓是不是不是 這個是本來我們就不斷的兩國之間的諮商這個是一直都在做的所以我說其實我們對美國產家公用馬鈴薯輸入嫌疑條件二月份做這樣的公告"},{"start":11972.995,"end":11992.203,"text":"其實放寬這個條件就是針對美國這個地區進口的馬鈴薯來做變更調整嘛這整個談判我們就覺得是非常不公平啦是,在國際上啊其實也都只有針對加工啦針對加工,沒有箱子加工那澳大利亞的你為什麼不把他歸類進去因為事實上我們要勾的"},{"start":11994.504,"end":12014.971,"text":"我們在民國94年的時候那時候就一致性跟每一個國家那後來陸陸續續有國家之間的相互諮商107年的規定跟現在你2月份的公告只針對美國的加工的馬鈴薯做出新的一個公告其他國家你就說剛才跟我講還是用舊的法規"},{"start":12015.891,"end":12032.362,"text":"所以你為什麼要為美國良心地做一個新的輸入檢疫條件因為其他的國家沒有提出 因為事實上我們要公告之前所以我們就放寬美國的馬鈴薯不是這樣子啦 因為國際之間的貿易就是這樣的慷慨其實我剛才我想 剛才這個 衛生部莊市長講得很清楚發芽的馬鈴薯確實不適合來使用啦"},{"start":12039.927,"end":12051.208,"text":"不管你是加工後的也是不能吃啊吃的就是為他們國人的健康啊所以在法官上我們真的是要更加的慎重啦"},{"start":12052.185,"end":12076.654,"text":"如果經濟部做這樣的一個開放我想真的對國人的健康其實2月6號公告之前我們在國內已經有公告讓我們的公共政策討論我們有公開14天那在WTO我們也提出公告給他們都沒有任何意見剛才我們也很多委員關心說你未來對加工廠的選別監管"},{"start":12078.835,"end":12106.364,"text":"大家很關心如果這些加工廠他們如何去去檢測出這些發芽的馬鈴薯是不適宜的所以你未來加工廠的選別監管你將會如何進行在加工廠裡面我們會會同衛福部在加工廠 事實上那個加工廠指定的地點其實我們是準用那個保稅區他所有的監"},{"start":12107.624,"end":12121.157,"text":"他的標準就是你車子就是貨運車要出來的時候要先貼封條要封尖然後的GPS要那個車子的能量足夠嗎?這個保稅區裡面所有都必須要設因為過去是沒有嘛現在就加入這樣一個規定嘛所以你"},{"start":12128.824,"end":12157.888,"text":"一定是要更需要更多的人力嘛所以你檢驗人力足夠嗎我們會比照過去過去就沒有這個規定嘛你小心加入一個規定比例不大啦那個會就是我們所抽到的那個太低了0.6而已所以會增加人力沒有錯0.6就很危險了現在你講0.6或許進來的不止0.6啊這有一個黑數存在啦市長你們不要太有信心啦不是上"},{"start":12158.448,"end":12180.488,"text":"在美國他要進來的時候他們美國國內他自己就要做檢驗了我在書面檢查我剛都看了你不要書面檢疫證明他們提出來你們就同意他進來了我們還要檢查啊你才去送到加工廠去做檢測嘛不是不是海關就先檢查啦所以美國進來完全是書面的檢測而已嘛美國當方面說我這個是沒問題的我這個是沒有發芽的"},{"start":12183.355,"end":12185.196,"text":"那你們未來到底是採取每批都檢驗還是抽樣的檢驗"},{"start":12197.848,"end":12216.128,"text":"這個問題很重要在邊境的話當然是抽樣 邊境講說每一顆都要抽到檢驗那個是在加工廠裡面 加工廠裡面我們是逐批這個比如說這個申請人他有這一批裡面有三個貨櫃逐批 逐櫃 逐顆在加工廠裡面我們全部逐顆 每一顆都會檢驗 對"},{"start":12219.351,"end":12220.192,"text":"本期對於國人的健康是"},{"start":12247.776,"end":12256.462,"text":"很堅持的健康的破口絕對領農人請相關人員這是衛福部莊次長農業部胡次長財政部的公務署彭署長"},{"start":12276.653,"end":12301.128,"text":"記得之前有一個是雞蛋之亂雞蛋之亂完了以後就是塑膠袋之亂現在要突然變成一個馬鈴薯之亂我們總是要健康治國啊不可以什麼事就是以亂來治國亂你亂中有序"},{"start":12307.028,"end":12328.794,"text":"民眾不相信啊我想請問一下就是衛福部是,我也好請教一下莊次長是請問那個小朋友啊小朋友幾歲可以開始吃馬鈴薯"},{"start":12333.146,"end":12359.803,"text":"副食品應該是三、四歲之後吧有的兩、三歲就開始吃了喔對啊 對不對好 問題都來了喔小朋友兩、三歲就被餵食的時候他怎麼會知不知道說馬鈴薯上面有沒有發芽大人應該都會看到另外應該是說問題都來了喔那大人天下"},{"start":12362.011,"end":12391.443,"text":"無不是的父母如果大人爸爸媽媽自己帶的話他一定不會拿有發芽的馬鈴薯給他吃啊問題來了我們打開報紙每次看到一些都是虐童案你那個保母帶的時候小朋友如果是每個小朋友都會哭哭鬧鬧的正常嘛你遇到那個黑心的保母"},{"start":12393.032,"end":12418.742,"text":"他就看他小孩子在那邊哭哭鬧鬧他就換了一招不打不罵他就一直餵他吃有毒的餵他吃這個發芽的馬鈴薯這鮮食用的馬鈴薯跟加工用是不一樣的這不用他出力啊報告委員就是說在這種屬於加工用的應該跟你剛剛講的那些是鮮食用的應該不太一樣啦市長有的都你在說啦"},{"start":12422.392,"end":12447.008,"text":"小朋友兩歲三歲四歲他怎麼會知道說應該是加工應該不加工黑心的保母一塞過來小朋友傻傻的來了嘴巴就張口啊就這樣吃吃吃就吃了半天肚子裡面全都是發芽的馬鈴薯吃了怎麼辦"},{"start":12449.69,"end":12469.891,"text":"因為沒有這樣的 這是一個假設的議題啦那因為市面上 事實上我們都把關得非常好跟農業部這邊其實是雙重把關這樣事情應該不會發生所以你要讓國人都相信你是好 那哪一天如果有剛剛講的情況出現的話你要怎麼處理"},{"start":12472.898,"end":12491.669,"text":"你說不會嘛這一定是不會啦那你用什麼方式來保證絕對不會跟委員報告就是說在只要在海關的時候農業部有發現有發芽的這個我們都就是就是類似在檢驗200ppm就會把它全部退後你講別的就算你講到海關來我講海關的事給你聽海關叫做關物署"},{"start":12501.639,"end":12522.5,"text":"黃署長你做得很辛苦海關的編制人員現在多少報告委員大概4200個以前多少人曾經有到6、7千人以前7千人現在4千多人現在海關啊它光是查緝毒品查緝"},{"start":12526.863,"end":12545.768,"text":"其他的一些什麼電子煙啊等等的就忙不過來啦你在搞死所有海關人員啦剛剛莊市長說每一批都要檢查每一顆馬鈴薯都要檢查不能有渙水摸魚"},{"start":12548.877,"end":12576.249,"text":"所以每個都要查嗎署長你有辦法每一棵馬鈴薯都查嗎怎麼查你說給大家聽包委員這個部分我們海關還有房間署還有這個衛福部這邊都有分工啦那海關是做這個查緝走私跟透漏關稅這是我們的查緝重點那食品安全的部分檢疫的部分那都是由房間署跟這個食藥署這邊大家分工來處理"},{"start":12577.611,"end":12596.701,"text":"所以馬鈴薯一顆一顆檢查是誰來檢查房間署是主題茶宴那換房間署剛剛都聽了他現在四千多個編制人員已經不足了我們現在海關回來也很辛苦你現在還沒有什麼非洲豬瘟"},{"start":12598.392,"end":12625.998,"text":"現在有嘛我看所有的工作人員是有那個檢查啦以前是沒有檢查的現在國外回來都是要排隊檢查有沒有農產品有沒有帶肉品防治非洲豬瘟已經整死了這一些第一線的關務署的同仁了今天要再多一個馬鈴薯好那你剛剛講的是叫做"},{"start":12628.653,"end":12638.702,"text":"房間署房間署是杜署長杜署長請問你你有沒有吃過馬鈴薯有 我很喜歡吃所以我一聽到我就一定要問清楚"},{"start":12651.738,"end":12674.12,"text":"不然你在台灣有很多的炸薯條或者是黑薯餅就是薯餅每次吃我吃我怎麼知道到底有沒有問題所以我們會以後再把關現在由你來檢查你這個房檢署有多少員工"},{"start":12675.862,"end":12692.562,"text":"房間署大概就五百多個人多少五百多個人那如果扣除一些休假請假的情況並假平常在工作崁位上有幾個人八百位委員我還分為動物跟植物"},{"start":12693.203,"end":12707.331,"text":"動物跟植物那你所以馬鈴薯是植物嘛你動物扣掉那剩多少人那但是報告委員現在這個的任務上我們大概已經在做已經在做準備"},{"start":12708.251,"end":12734.067,"text":"所以因為它是從高雄分署進來所以我們現在已經在制定整個流程跟檢驗那我們會跟食藥署在第一關CIQS的時候就嚴格執行這個所以這個馬鈴薯變成是一個我們防禦的大敵這樣子然後馬鈴薯以後只從高雄關進來大部分都是從高雄關入關"},{"start":12734.995,"end":12753.589,"text":"那從基隆不行嗎當然可以啊但是我們的標準是一致的我們的標準一定是一致的就依照這個標準去做執行那也會執行訓練沒有問題你講給別人聽聽還可以啦那一天我才去基隆關我們去考察你有沒有去過"},{"start":12754.335,"end":12767.349,"text":"有 基隆關最近大概就是觀光貨輪不是貨輪等一下署長再講給你聽我們去看所有的現在的電子商務"},{"start":12769.059,"end":12796.158,"text":"快遞的郵件你知道一天有多少量快遞郵件是關務署為主政那動作的檢疫是我們來搭配好 那請問那個杜署長是快遞進來的東西如果裡面有假有一包一包的那個薯餅是只要沒有生爆炸薯條講起來 薯條三兄弟啦"},{"start":12797.15,"end":12808.479,"text":"如果從那邊進來那你也查不到啊報告立委我們的是殷司檢疫項目那炸薯條他不是殷司檢疫項目"},{"start":12810.413,"end":12825.696,"text":"我們所有的都是檢疫的項目以現在進來來講其實生鮮一年大概2.7噸那主要是涉及病蟲害根帶土那其他一年進口的15噸它包括有冷凍進來有調製進來那這些有的是做馬鈴薯泥馬鈴薯澱粉甚至於做其他的用途"},{"start":12832.918,"end":12845.424,"text":"對那這個是整個跟關稅跟食品比較有相關那我們只就病蟲害的問題你的意思就是說你們一共有一百多個人然後"},{"start":12847.864,"end":12862.963,"text":"要我們國人來相信你100個多人可以把這個防護做得滴水不漏不會有發芽的馬鈴薯進來來干擾民眾的健康問題報告委員這是我們的職責"},{"start":12864.625,"end":12876.92,"text":"我們一定要全力以赴那另外跟您報告非洲豬瘟的時候那個剛剛講的手檢區也是我們負責的所以我們也都是這樣子在培訓你講得很辛苦啊你也講得很認真啊"},{"start":12880.004,"end":12901.177,"text":"可是你又叫國人怎麼樣相信那成堆成山的馬鈴薯然後有你們100多人在把關然後不會出問題報告委員剛剛我們這個次長也有講以去年114年為例那它的不合格率只有0.6也就是說"},{"start":12902.598,"end":12926.843,"text":"合格的部分大概都可以通關但不合格的部分我們就會專批然後送達指定的地點那會提改善計畫那在嚴格的要求之下那這個區域是會等同或比照社區的監督之下足跪、足批、足科來做篩檢我們的原則就是這樣足科啊"},{"start":12930.53,"end":12950.345,"text":"對在加工廠的時候我們的原則就是這樣竹科的意思就是說不是新竹那個竹科不是不是不是竹科的你的意思是說一顆一顆要檢查是我們覺得監督業者來做這件事情你講的話說得很漂亮不是這個做是一定要做的"},{"start":12950.882,"end":12979.518,"text":"那你一顆一顆很難想像啊你這打過人 呈現三萬顆你怎麼弄報告 報告委員他的申請是一批一批進來的那一批一批進來 以我們現在在於邊境的檢驗啊其實也是如此整個的他的沙網 燉袋的時候也是這樣子來檢疫的你們有沒有檢討過是到底是誰是那個trouble maker"},{"start":12980.916,"end":13007.618,"text":"以前就沒有這個事情為什麼現在如臨大敵然後把一顆馬鈴薯變成是大家覺得是健康危害的一個首惡然後我剛舉那個例子你講得很認真哪一天有一個小朋友被虐童結果智商變差或者身體出了狀況原因就是為他吃有毒的馬鈴薯"},{"start":13009.599,"end":13035.984,"text":"報告委員我想就有兩個層次第一個 美方進來的時候就要把關三強到我們這裡也是一樣會嚴格把關我們一定不會讓有不合格的流入到我們的市場跟加工廠要我們相信一百多個人還有相信你講的話好 謝謝我們羅秘財委員的質詢接下來請郭國文委員"},{"start":13038.636,"end":13063.55,"text":"謝謝主席,有請農業部跟衛福財政部的代表接著是主計長委員好市長為什麼每次講到這種有爭議性的議題,相關的單位講話都像公文一樣,就不用白話文的語言怎麼講都講民眾聽不懂的語言,到底出了什麼狀況?"},{"start":13065.914,"end":13080.98,"text":"民眾聽不懂所以說一個馬鈴薯的事情搞到馬鈴薯之亂我就問一下嘛那個進口檢疫是財政部是不是還是衛福部還是你們房檢局檢疫的部分是我們負責有沒有翻寬"},{"start":13087.925,"end":13111.823,"text":"標準有沒有放寬?沒有那我再問一下檢驗的比例有沒有放寬?沒有這兩個就是重點啊這兩個重點講清楚就好了好不好市長請回那我再問一下衛福部衛福部最近有一個洗產地的這個高雄市議員邱余軒的老公他的公司大發食材行"},{"start":13112.924,"end":13136.614,"text":"分別進口中國跟越南進來的芝麻跟香菇更惡劣的他們是用貼為台灣的產地的標籤這明顯是其產地賣給高雄的學童來吃還怪法規誤導市長啊說一下好不好這件事情有沒有裁罰有 這個部分溫局已經罰八萬了這個事情也還沒有發生 這已經發生了"},{"start":13137.694,"end":13165.543,"text":"對 國安局已經裁罰8萬那另外因為涉刑法詐欺所以已經移送這個檢調那我會持續追蹤沒有 目前已經送這個檢調了 這已經是發生了事實這才是需要大力去裁罰的事情啊 對不對同樣實案問題怎麼會有兩種標準呢實在非常奇怪那我們請衛福部先回去一下財政部也先回去一下 各位單位先回去我請那個主計長"},{"start":13171.59,"end":13196.218,"text":"主席長總預算終於開始審了這大概破天荒喔最快你覺得刪讀的時候大約什麼時候上一次的紀錄是6月15刪讀啦隔一年啦你覺得判斷一下這我希望是盡快能夠盡快大約嘛你心裡頭要一個譜嘛如果出估這樣應該至少是要在6月下旬啦大概多少6月中下旬吧"},{"start":13196.929,"end":13218.386,"text":"就可以三讀審完了真的喔我們希望如此真的假喔那六月中下旬是妳現在的期待啦是啦希望啦但是如果是這樣子的話牽扯到一個問題啊執行率的部分怎麼辦有沒有掌握會不會妳到時候執行率又出問題那明年的這個立法機關立法院又說執行率不加給妳砍預算會不會這種狀況"},{"start":13219.687,"end":13248.086,"text":"目前的確會有這樣的一個狀況就是說他有一些該發包的他可能是因為他經費沒有結續所以他發包的金額沒有達到他預定的一個額度那現在如果說要趕的部分這個部分就是說要盡量去追趕一下執行力很有壓力啊可是如果過度注重執行力時間有限的情況底下品質可能就會有憂慮啊這個部分也是我們盡量要跟各單位來請他們來講你還要跟審計部講一下"},{"start":13249.967,"end":13267.799,"text":"到時候這樣寫的時候不要一直怪行政部門要寫說因為立法院不審預算引起到行政部門 敢不敢這樣寫審計長是因為立法院的關係他敢 他點頭了你就不用上來了好 接下來再算了說那如果是六月的話那我問你啊"},{"start":13268.559,"end":13295.697,"text":"老榮津貼 國寶年金 八大社福津貼來得及什麼時候送追加預算 民眾都非常期待啊這三筆預算 兩筆追溯到1月1號另外呢 是7月1號總共的金額啊 高達355億欸民眾充滿期待如果按照這種方式 那我就再請教一下主計長您預估的這一個時程大概什麼時候"},{"start":13297.452,"end":13319.91,"text":"我們應該是 因為現在我們已經開始籌編116年度的一個預算那是明年的事情 我現在問你追加預算的部分但是追加預算也大概是跟他差不多一個期間 因為為什麼大概幾月 能不能說個時間點大概八月底八月才能送八月送的話 要等到通過的話 民眾是不是都要等很久要等到什麼時候"},{"start":13321.672,"end":13348.343,"text":"反正本會本院非常的勤勞認真啦 研會啦會一直研下去啦所以我們還是希望說這一次預算的一個115年預算審查能夠跨年預算因為最佳預算它不是那麼快的一個能夠通過所以如果穩定物價的一個相關的措施而且這還是很順利喔你六月的時候中旬通過三讀喔年度預算喔接下來你才會"},{"start":13349.443,"end":13371.21,"text":"通過這個追加預算喔這前面快後面才會跟著快喔但是我也跟委員報告勞農年金和國保年金這些的相關的條例他還沒有過啦喔還沒有過喔對對對你看這樣拖下去就更久了不是嗎相關的條例還沒有過就拖下去更久而且你後面還有軍公教加薪會不會加薪啊"},{"start":13373.238,"end":13377.807,"text":"這個人種的那邊他是有這樣的規劃這個捧份怎麼辦 也是用最佳預算這個最佳預算會不會一併處理"},{"start":13384.397,"end":13410.075,"text":"一併會處理一併處理嘛如果軍工要加薪的話就跟前面的這個津貼年金一併處理嘛那穩定物價的那個部分呢1300億怎麼辦是這個部分呢就是要第一個當然它多少是要看戰爭的一個期限啦那第二個還要看說補貼的一個項目的期間到底是多少所以必須要其實做一個台式可是現在無限期休戰啊"},{"start":13411.516,"end":13436.751,"text":"所以現在就是說我們要看行政院整個財市所以不一定會編?這1300億不一定會編?因為目前就已經有中油的部分包括台電都有一些支出其實是應該要做一些的填補如果有辦追加預算是應該要一次辦或者是說要辦特別預算這必須要看行政院的財市啦"},{"start":13437.031,"end":13454.223,"text":"所以說這個要怎麼收處理 對一般就是說我們希望能夠在八月底也就是說三大福利軍公教加薪一併在八月底盡可能把它提出來還有穩定物價 因為軍公教加薪比較不確認軍公教加薪這個部分是不是提出來"},{"start":13455.063,"end":13482.57,"text":"要看人總這邊了解了解但是人總已經在朝向這個方向了好我那個本席再就叫你一個問題除了這個預算之外中央發債的部分目前只有4億這個以行公債的部分也就是說我們整個審計部之前提到財政部在推動非營業基金的發行永續發展債券的時候兩年多一件都沒有辦"},{"start":13483.89,"end":13509.963,"text":"終於有一件要辦了結果發現多少四億然後我們去看一下台北市、桃園、高雄合計起來多少兩百八十四億那就很奇怪了現在到底是中央比較缺錢還是地方比較缺錢明明財發法過了之後我們就少了四千多億我們完全不緊張耶主席長這是怎麼一回事為什麼整計部這個提出的報告中央不理不睬是不是吃大鍋飯習慣了"},{"start":13512.335,"end":13540.834,"text":"大家想說預算編一編就好不用另外去籌組財源不用去找銀行你去想一想喔你這肆意一放出來馬上啊就被搶空了為什麼因為我們公債的發行量很低嘛所以你永續發展基金的這個發行很多銀行很多金融機關或者是郵政儲軍馬上會來搶你應該透過這部分來彌補現在你的預算不足這個不是最好的時機嗎 主席長 是不是"},{"start":13541.598,"end":13553.028,"text":"是 但是這個部分比較偏財政是不是請財政部好 財政部來 請財政部等一下 還有你 還有你 等一下不好意思 我一直以為是你 誤會你來 那個軟刺 來說明一下 為什麼"},{"start":13557.957,"end":13574.494,"text":"跟委員報告現在目前中央中央跟地方都一直在推中央目前就只有一筆是4億另外有一筆是高雄的航空站以前出餐的部分大家也做得心不甘情不願"},{"start":13576.136,"end":13589.615,"text":"現在這個永續發展基金的這個債券其實發展其實更容易因為很多人搶手永續發展債券基本上你們要用一個什麼樣的誘因跟機制來要求中央相關單位來發行"},{"start":13591.357,"end":13608.425,"text":"我們現在是先請除了中央跟金管會還有櫃買中心合作來尋找按援之外阮次既然你上了台剛剛人家主計長就說你你是主政單位您一個月之內你要提一個什麼辦法來鼓勵中央相關部會來發行這個永續發展債券來籌措這個資源"},{"start":13614.228,"end":13635.792,"text":"以面對現階段預算不足的壓力好不好是我完全了解用一個月的時間好不好我們繼續來推對你們主政你們就要去推嘛我們已經在推了好不好已經在推還不夠嘛你如何刺激他們給他們業績壓力KPI怎麼樣的方法讓他們能夠提早提出來好不好我給你一個月的時間來刺謝謝委員長謝謝最後一個部分那個主席長還有"},{"start":13640.313,"end":13664.613,"text":"你看我們要求地方政府有個災害準備金的部分要總預算1%一般而言這個災害準備金本息為什麼這麼care在北部相對比較少動用到災害準備金可是在中南部的部分呢1%往往都不足往往不足的時候都會跟中央來爭取可是中央呢要求地方1%可是中央變多少中央政府變0.16"},{"start":13667.455,"end":13669.26,"text":"照說至少要編303.5億缺口足足差了250億"},{"start":13676.247,"end":13704.523,"text":"欸 那個 主席長這個災害準備金要多編一點不是說我們要怎麼樣這反倒是備而不用嘛你都要求地方一person為什麼中央不能多一點呢不然我們還要跑去民間募款大家搶食中央的這一步稀少的預算而不夠的情況底下卻責任呢下放到給其他人包括民意代表給一些民間團體這樣不對嘛你這個應該多編一點啦主席長你的看法怎麼樣能不能說明一下"},{"start":13705.168,"end":13718.501,"text":"我們已經逐年在增加了啦速度不夠啦 我知道啦 之前21現在50億啦那以前它只有對地方有規範1%對中央是沒有規範對我知道 還會微乎其微嘛現在中央責任越來越大了之前中央不都下去"},{"start":13721.704,"end":13722.084,"text":"謝謝主席 請這個"},{"start":13749.332,"end":13754.656,"text":"主計長還有農業部上次提到離島公共工程的問題我們有請主計總處跟工程會開會你們要來討論離島公共工程的營建成本現在規定是多三成"},{"start":13774.572,"end":13791.322,"text":"對 以前是百分之三十嘛那我們現在就請就是說讓他不要做限制就不做限制我有看到你們給我回覆是是是不做限制不做限制可能你也要在這個相關的這個法律或辦法裡頭比如說你的這個共同性"},{"start":13792.902,"end":13805.269,"text":"我們會在116年度就做這樣一個規範對 要寫在裡頭因為如果你完全不做限制到時候事實上基層的公務員有時候什麼事也不敢做比較明確 比如說您是說由地方來實際訪查嘛應該怎麼做給一個辦法寫在裡頭寫清楚對 我們會參照公共工程委員會給的意見然後把它列入我們預算編列一個標準裡面來做規範"},{"start":13819.557,"end":13847.646,"text":"是 因為原來事實上在110年度開始本來就有寫說可以有一些一些單價單位如果特殊需求可以續名旅遊 但這個是例外嘛對不對 但是我們的金門的例外這麼多就已經變成是一個常態那我是希望在你們的辦法裡頭比較明確一點讓地方工程在這個不管要招標 不會說招標12次流標然後以後每次一直提高那個後面的款項一直增加也做不了"},{"start":13848.226,"end":13869.284,"text":"而工程的延宕也除了時間成本以外事實上預算也要越來越高事實上是對政府反而不利這個麻煩你在今年的就116年的這個共同性費用編列基準表把它寫出來或者要做一個比較明確的函式也可以好這個麻煩你好謝謝主席長好那接著我們請這個沈記處沈記長委員好"},{"start":13873.613,"end":13887.469,"text":"你好 辛苦了我們金門地方有很多以前是實行戰地政務那戰地政務的時候比如說有很多隱形的地雷比如說軍方 國防部 官部像以我們現在施工環島的難路來講很多有廢棄的軍用油管"},{"start":13891.653,"end":13913.606,"text":"國防部在當初有做一些軍事設施啦那後來沒有用以後應該理論上是國防部的責任應該去把它拆除嘛那我們現在有在做一些相關的施工的時候遇到一些軍用的設施要嘛有的要保存要嘛有的要拆除那這些東西呢這個國防部並沒有編列專款專用都是由這個地方政府在跟這個申請這個離島建設基金來"},{"start":13917.669,"end":13941.287,"text":"來做這些就是比如說這個廢棄油管來講以這樣來講是來做這些拆除的工作那利用建設基金是要幫助離島建設發展那這些東西是國防部當初他遺留下來的那這個邏輯上來講當初這些遺留下來也是國防部的東西嘛那國防部本身其實是有預算是不是請省紀部可以督促這個我們國防部可以落實這個責任的這個法理原則就是"},{"start":13942.372,"end":13957.479,"text":"他們留下來的東西他們應該編專款比如說幾年內你把它清掉就像以前清地雷一樣不要再由離島建設因為離島建設現在已經是比較少了那要做離島的建設發展那這個國防部並不是沒有預算嘛"},{"start":13958.099,"end":13983.798,"text":"他有預算嘛 他可以專款專用編列一個幾年的比如說五年的一個清除計畫 針對當初的佔地政府的那些設施嘛這個是讓符合國有財產法的管理機關應該維護管理廢棄的責任當初是軍方管的 基本是軍方管 所以設施也是他們埋下來的那他們現在就應該把它清除那當然也可以委由地方代辦但這個財源的部分是請省計出來協助要求"},{"start":13984.558,"end":14004.145,"text":"謝謝 依照國防部的規定 這是國防部的責任所以我們已經喊請國防部查明第二個 我們審計部會做聯合審計因為牽涉國防部 也牽涉金門地方政府所以我們做聯合審計就是由我們第二廳 國防廳和金門審計處聯合把這個問題做一個徹底的了解來處理"},{"start":14010.447,"end":14017.572,"text":"那個我想你們單位很有力啦也很有執行力也做得很好有請你們就是多多督促國防部這個好謝謝您好謝謝現在請那個農業部"},{"start":14022.711,"end":14050.126,"text":"那個農業部特別是這個動植物有房間署來 署長也有來嘛好 署長好這個您看一下齁 這個金門齁金門是 沒關係 市長也可以啦齁市長是農業農糧署的嘛齁 那署長是是 你也以前在農糧署嘛對 對嘛 那署長是也是 我們這是講防疫齁 今天要講這個防疫金門跟這個 金門是屬於台澎金嘛 中華民國一部分嘛齁那日本是外國嘛"},{"start":14051.347,"end":14075.587,"text":"但是你看同樣發生這個牛結節這個牛結節診這個事情日本的牛有牛結節金門的牛也有牛結節這個有安全規範世界安全規範說谷歌雞是一個安全產品這沒問題你們的態度是日本的牛有牛結節可以進口不受限制但是金門的牛有牛結節就全面封殺不能進來"},{"start":14077.062,"end":14085.09,"text":"你們是不是對外國比對自家人還寬容同樣的事情金門的牛不能進來但是日本的牛可以進來台灣本島"},{"start":14090.899,"end":14110.365,"text":"那哪一位要回答謝謝陳委員的指教那事實上因為以金門來講確實是對於這個大陸的這個太相近你是因為距離近嗎有他是因為距離所以因為金門的距離所以金門很多東西都要被限制嗎陳委員我再說明一下現在以目前來講"},{"start":14113.946,"end":14114.687,"text":"就我最近在講的是"},{"start":14131.019,"end":14150.069,"text":"我先問妳 日本的牛為什麼可以進啊日本的牛節節診的牛可以進喔 不上限喔金門的牛就是不能進啊 我只是要公平待遇我現在再說明一下 是因為在金門它的牛級的管理並沒有落實跟徹底沒有落實嗎 妳看我現在也覺得我們的那個 耳邊已經虧了百分之百了"},{"start":14154.771,"end":14180.805,"text":"我可以進一步再跟委員長報告我沒有注射率98 你們覺得注射率94耳標的這個聽掛已經快要百分之百了你們是要要求到百分之百是嗎報告委員 確實它在牛脊的管理上有很多放牧的那個地方確實是沒有辦法完全掌握到那我請問一下喔 你有沒有完全掌握到日本的牛每一隻牛都有做耳標啊"},{"start":14181.685,"end":14200.547,"text":"日本他們有沒有我們只要發放這個的部分就是有沒有日本有沒有有沒有去查過沒關係有查有查產地絕對有派員去查產地我不要管你產地我先問你你要求是難道你的要求是百分之百的耳釘掛牌嗎對不對這是你們的要求嗎"},{"start":14202.669,"end":14226.22,"text":"這個是不是你們要求巨木法的要求好沒關係這就是牛如果金門牛要開放要這樣子嘛對不對對這個標準我可以接受我可以接受反正你要要這個標準我不是不能接受好不好好那就接著我們看怎麼做嘛第一個外國進口牛你也必須要一樣的標準這個我是這樣要求的就是外國進口牛你不要讓我到日本去考察發現日本的牛沒有這樣做我們要去查場而且他輸入的"},{"start":14227.48,"end":14252.595,"text":"是非議點非議點他一定要符合國際規範才有可能他的牛會進來對 國際規範來講牛節節診金門的牛不能進來但是日本的牛不受限所以你告訴我你先告訴我你的標準在哪裡我們照標準做沒有關係我們會配合好 我們配合怎麼做有兩個方向而且最近口蹄疫以大陸來講又新型的口蹄疫大陸跟我什麼關係大陸有口蹄疫不是金門有口蹄疫因為兩岸太密切了"},{"start":14253.275,"end":14270.835,"text":"那台灣也離大陸很近啊台灣也離中國大陸非常近啊 以全世界來講為了保護整個產業 我們一定要有所作為不是 你不要把金門從台灣切開嘛金門就台澎金馬的一部分嘛我們是就防疫的角度上可以開它多少進就要進 一公里就要進 一百公里進不進"},{"start":14275.484,"end":14290.596,"text":"我先跟你討論解決方法第一個我想這個自主溯源系統是不是第一個我們農業部來協助做自主溯源所有的金門的牧場我們都一直在協助我們地方政府也會要求地方政府協助"},{"start":14291.277,"end":14303.449,"text":"包括我們會協助在預算上面你們看是不是要做什麼溯源系統啊QR code啊雲端資料什麼履歷證明這個請你們編列相關預算請地方政府現在做這個我們會協助我們再來討論經費的問題好嗎什麼經費啊你不編列經費他講的叫做什麼不是因為報告"},{"start":14310.235,"end":14322.42,"text":"你們不編列經費然後也不給他進口你們是不想讓這個產業活不是這樣子因為有很多的事在財化法以後是在地方政府你們不編列經費不可能要一條路走嗎你就不支持這個產業嘛要依照財化法的分配學者去做"},{"start":14328.723,"end":14353.9,"text":"你又不幫忙 又要限制我要說明 你願不願意幫忙嘛我們願意接受輔導 我們願意接受規範你們願不願意幫忙嘛我們本來就在幫忙我們本來就預算相關這方面幫忙 那地方政府去做幫話委員你也知道 我們都一直在幫你是說你們沒有錢是不是不是沒有錢 而是一直在選擇沒關係 你看我多少錢 需要多少錢我幫你從別的地方選下來好不好 我幫農業部從別的地方審下來來做這個吧好不好我們到審議的時候 我看需要多少錢我看你哪一個部會的錢 哪一個農業部來的錢"},{"start":14356.201,"end":14368.984,"text":"比較浪費我們三下海來這邊做嘛好不好 這我們來協助你齁然後另外來那日本 你告訴我日本的牛你們每一隻牛都有耳標對不對這是你說的喔我們會跟他們這樣說但是牠出口的時候牠一定要符合我們的諮商談判的檢疫的條件金門也有茶廠金門是國內喔金門是國內 你第一個觀念你們每次的觀念都是說比如說青牛桿的時候"},{"start":14385.367,"end":14404.167,"text":"比如說禽流感的時候我講禽流感好了禽流感的時候金門沒有禽流感什麼屏東哪裡都有禽流感金門的雞蛋也不能來台灣你們每次都說因為金門離中國大陸比較近所以什麼都不能進來你們根本就不能把金門當作是以家人來看待的知道嗎因為我們的防疫角度上我們是依照風險的高低制定不一樣的"},{"start":14405.589,"end":14412.336,"text":"而且我們跟他們作戰體系是一致性你們跟日本作戰體系是一致性我講的是在國內所有的我們的防禦體系是在大家都是在"},{"start":14422.606,"end":14433.2,"text":"同一個陣線上所以為什麼日本的牛可以進來你這樣回答為什麼金門牛一樣標準金門牛不能進來檢疫條件我還是在想刷房居生的檢疫條件對就是因為地理性嘛那我跟你講那這一題等於病蟲害那這一題等於無鐵嘛因為金門島就是奔不走嘛"},{"start":14438.647,"end":14460.539,"text":"我們來協助好嗎協助可以啊 別預算了我剛不跟你講我們來協助 協助看這個層面其實不一定只有經費啦有些也是在基礎上經費是最基本的是最低協助啦基礎上我們可以協助我們一定都幫忙好不好謝謝請陳玉成委員再辦考察去了解一下好 來接下來我們結束陳玉成委員的質詢接下來請鄭天才委員大家盡量保持安靜邊吃便當保持安靜謝謝"},{"start":14478.932,"end":14491.262,"text":"主席有請主記長還有沈記長請陳沈記長委員好兩位我們看這個嚴兵會115年度的預算115年度跟114年度來做比較的話是增加了"},{"start":14508.827,"end":14535.115,"text":"七千兩百二十三萬增加了七千兩百二十三萬五千元但是呢這樣的增加那為什麼我們就以幾個例子啊幾個例子原住民族住宅四年三期計畫這個行政院核定的計畫一百一十四到一百一十七年度"},{"start":14536.584,"end":14565.31,"text":"建構及修繕住宅的經費每年是一億三千八百萬但是一百一十五年度只有編列四千七百三十萬元不足九千零七十萬元這麼重要的尤其是我們援助民主的住宅自由力跟一般國民少了少了非常的多"},{"start":14567.103,"end":14595.276,"text":"請問一下主席長你了解嗎?主席長因為這個部分我幫你查一下目前我們再查一下這個部分那照道理我們如果說每一年1億3我們應該會主有編列啊它是增加7億多不是增加7千多萬因為剛剛上年度比較是增加7億多你說什麼?7億多不是7千多萬"},{"start":14596.701,"end":14619.091,"text":"百萬千萬億 七億多 七億兩千兩百三十三萬五千元增加這麼多 卻是這麼重要的民生需求對不對 住是最重要的 卻是少了這麼多"},{"start":14622.522,"end":14640.288,"text":"這個請主席長我們再查明一下不只是這個跟民生很多減少的你們回去去了解一下到底什麼問題然後錢又亂花這個跟省紀長也有關係主紀長跟這個主紀長原住民組委員會從114年度去年開始"},{"start":14651.664,"end":14677.487,"text":"事辦所謂的公法人事辦計畫以這個115年度來說每個部落事辦計畫一個部落120萬元去年只有100萬今年提高到120萬元而這樣的一個事辦計畫違反原住民族基本法"},{"start":14678.615,"end":14707.5,"text":"因為它對應的是原住民族綜合發展基金根本原住民族綜合發展基金按照基本法的規定是沒有這個部分另外啊就業基金也不符合原住民族工作權保障法的就業基金的資用相關的這些尤其是按照原住民族基本法的規定第二條之一啊必須要"},{"start":14708.459,"end":14735.388,"text":"定定啊 演兵會必須要訂定部落之核定組織部落會議之組成結一程序及其他相關事項之辦法必須要先訂這個法規命令才可以成為部落公法人現在根本就沒有這個辦法都沒有沒有發布啊你去辦 你去試辦有什麼用呢被試辦的"},{"start":14737.738,"end":14764.76,"text":"被事辦的部落他沒有公法人地位如何能有成效呢所以這個部分啊這個主計長如果一個部落一百二十萬如果這個法規公布發布施行之後你知道原住民有多少部落嗎七百多個部落你有辦法支付那麼多錢嗎"},{"start":14766.772,"end":14769.481,"text":"對不對所以要請省紀長啊"},{"start":14771.448,"end":14799.097,"text":"要查核 要審計好不好好 我們已經這個案子就已經給他他的效益怎麼樣我們已經在查了這效益不符合啦對 不符合基金的用途我們會提出我們的審計意見我們去做了解好 謝謝再請審計長就這個部落工法人示範企劃詳細的再回覆鄭天才委員接下來請林倩琦委員"},{"start":14800.427,"end":14817.45,"text":"林憲齊 林憲齊不在 接下來請羅志強委員有請財政部阮次長 農業部胡次長以及衛福部莊次長胡次長 莊次長 阮次長"},{"start":14831.406,"end":14859.591,"text":"我想請教阮次長進口馬鈴薯將會整櫃檢查每一顆拿出來檢查請問這句話誰說的我跟委員報告我先問你這句話誰說的嘛我原句有quote錯嗎阮次長這個我不太清楚是誰說的但是我跟委員報告胡次長"},{"start":14860.936,"end":14883.928,"text":"你也不太清楚誰說的我沒有在場但是我據旁邊的了解卓院長有提到說如果進到加工廠的話有花芽的我們會逐顆我引的就是卓院長的原句啦當然你們後面怎麼補充我們待會來看嘛好不好可以齁那我想請問齁這個每年進口美國馬鈴薯大概多少公噸15萬"},{"start":14887.522,"end":14901.258,"text":"15萬公噸對 當中當中生鮮跟加工的27000公噸其他的13多萬公噸那個是調製的或者是已經做成這些馬鈴薯泥這個冷凍進來的那15萬公噸大概是多少顆馬鈴薯"},{"start":14906.584,"end":14927.934,"text":"那個已經變成加工那個就不是一顆一顆進來如果一顆一顆進來是多少兩萬七千公噸的話大概是將近一億顆我想請教一下那檢查如果說檢查一顆要花多少時間檢查用機器這樣讓它滑動的話很快我想請問"},{"start":14929.775,"end":14938.069,"text":"我們到底要怎麼做到把這一億顆都拿來檢查不是 報告委員在邊境的時候啊邊境有農業部"},{"start":14940.153,"end":14960.148,"text":"農業部不是講 最後還是講2%到多少%不是 那個農業部是60%衛福部的話 他們剛才是說所以做得到 每一棵拿來檢查做得到不是 那個檢查是在進到我們的這個加工廠還沒有讓它合格可以加工之前我來回頭來做比較嘛 好不好那我想請問"},{"start":14962.503,"end":14990.306,"text":"這個我們知道馬鈴薯發芽會有龍奎鹼毒素嘛所以過去的做法是不是一發芽腐爛就整批退運沒錯吧有幾種做法我們是負責鹼液那龍奎鹼的部分那個是為何不我講的是只要有發芽腐爛就整批退運嘛過去的做法吧對謝謝你啊那現在新的ART變成是出現發芽或品質異常不再一律整批退運嘛"},{"start":14991.345,"end":15019.612,"text":"而是要改到送到指定加工廠嘛來區分逐顆來檢測就是來進行選別把發芽腐敗或發霉的個體剔除並整顆銷毀嘛對不對對如果嚴重的話也是會整櫃都退一櫃我想問你啊這算不算放寬啊以前的做法就是整批退沒有放寬這叫沒有放寬沒關係我們就看國人怎麼想啦事實上你可以看到一件事情"},{"start":15021.082,"end":15048.452,"text":"過去實務上為什麼採取有花芽腐爛就整櫃退運因為我們政府有這個條件有這個能力去逐批逐顆篩選嗎現在有這個能力跟條件嗎所有的做法是一樣的一樣的啊整批退運跟進來逐批篩選是要一樣喔在邊境我們是邊境檢查完之後啊如果有花芽的部分我們在林業部的部分我告訴你啦"},{"start":15049.412,"end":15068.086,"text":"放寬就是放寬你放寬之後改變做法要的是食安品質的把關那是後面在講的可是你不要連第一段都想要矇騙今天消費者嘛沒有因為如果只要我直接講現在不僅沒有整批退嘛你把腐爛發言人篩選責任請交給誰這個是這個是衛福部衛福部就交給你啦"},{"start":15075.162,"end":15088.776,"text":"包委員只要有發芽的部分那就是農業部他們當然會把它剔除掉啦那這些這一批沒有發芽我們會去檢驗它的農魁檢超過200ppm一樣整批把它退貨是 拜託一下"},{"start":15089.693,"end":15100.744,"text":"你剛剛說腐爛發芽就要交給那個衛福部不是吧發芽腐爛還有這個花莓這個是衛福部他們會去檢查請問誰篩檢誰篩檢本來誰篩檢現在誰篩檢喔那個您現在所講的那個是在是在這個加工廠裡面"},{"start":15108.231,"end":15130.486,"text":"在加工廠裡面去加工廠去的嘛不是那個還沒有入境那個必須要在那邊我先舉個例子齁你可以舉一個例子告訴我過去啦在邊境檢查有把整批貨櫃內每個物品都拿出來檢查每個馬鈴薯拿出來檢查有做過嗎以前我們是全部所有的這個建築的馬鈴薯60%我們的做法是60%抽檢人力不允許答對了嘛"},{"start":15138.07,"end":15158.903,"text":"過去人力不允許才會有所謂整批退的情形你現在跟我講你改變出來那請問要擴兌多少人力國際上每一個國家都一樣不是只有台灣啦那個邊際本來就是這樣子我告訴你食安的折扣沒有拿什麼國際不國際台灣食安標準變寬了以後你後面的責任要多多去加強是後面的問題所以最後我還是一個很快的結論結束時間到了"},{"start":15161.846,"end":15180.78,"text":"做不到就不要亂承諾一顆一顆怎麼減啊花芽的部分我們花芽的部分我們會一顆一顆減因為花芽率只有百分之六這個我們過去的經驗所以一花芽的我們會百分之百這個是絕對沒有問題謝謝委員的關心好 謝謝我們結束羅志強委員的質詢接下來請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":15195.389,"end":15218.403,"text":"謝謝主席 陽前發言 我們直接請農業部 財政部跟衛福部阮市長 胡市長 莊市長委員好好 這個政府到底是怎麼了"},{"start":15219.212,"end":15244.098,"text":"一個馬鈴薯發芽明明就是以前只要有看到發芽的整櫃退回或者是整櫃銷毀現在為了這個NTE ART在談判的過程當中到底是誰答應的實案是沒有推入的實案也是絕對是零容忍的嘛"},{"start":15245.069,"end":15252.3,"text":"那到底是誰決定要退讓退讓這個食安請問原本是有"},{"start":15253.991,"end":15275.715,"text":"只要櫃子裡頭有一顆就整個銷毀或者是整個退運那現在決定只要把那個發芽的或者是爛的丟掉但是以四十尺為主四十尺一顆好幾?進來有幾萬顆?有幾顆?這是二十五噸啦二十五噸大概八萬幾顆八萬三千幾顆"},{"start":15279.716,"end":15284.511,"text":"八萬多顆啊那在這個密閉式空間在運送的時候"},{"start":15285.615,"end":15310.862,"text":"那他那一顆爛掉 潛伏期一到三天 嚴重的是七天那你把那一顆到這個臨選 臨別的這個工廠裡頭去選那請教 誰選啊現在台灣的量體有幾家可以選有幾家工廠自己選有合格幾家有合格幾家"},{"start":15312.995,"end":15321.668,"text":"有合格幾架那個不是合格不合格那個是有必須要申請啦他要申請你先申請就給你申請才可以做啊幾架幾架幾架來衛福部幾架"},{"start":15329.182,"end":15338.266,"text":"講了快兩個禮拜沒有辦法讓民眾清楚進口的業者有21家要領選的這個工廠有幾家發覺有一顆爛掉的你要送到這個工廠去領選有幾家目前有幾家目前不合格只有兩家我們有在驗而已一個40尺的貨櫃就有8萬顆"},{"start":15358.479,"end":15373.531,"text":"我們只有兩家你住的來嗎?你住的來嗎?你住的來嗎?一年我們進口的有15萬名事實上就是業者要改善計畫那這個部分就是我們的慰安局會跟慰安局督導所以目前有兩家嘛 對不對你可以幫你領選的"},{"start":15379.575,"end":15394.611,"text":"報告委員在邊境只要查驗不合格就退運那剛才所問到的是說如果要到一個指定場所那指定場所就衛福部來講曾經有申請過指定場所是有兩家業者曾經來申請過的這張還可不可以做還可以幫你領"},{"start":15401.998,"end":15418.887,"text":"我們在當下不合格當下他必須提改善計畫的時候就衛生局就去現場查核這個在食品衛生安全是業者有需要的時候提出來衛生局去監察這個是食品衛生安全的部分"},{"start":15419.807,"end":15437.792,"text":"那你說你沒有退讓以往你只要查到一顆絕對整櫃退現在重點是在查到一顆把那個爛的拿掉其他的可以來篩選甚至有告訴我們我們為一顆一顆來篩選你有這個能力嗎報告委員你們有這個能力嗎"},{"start":15442.393,"end":15457.239,"text":"報告委員您剛才所問的部分是檢疫的部分那我剛才所說明是食品衛生安全當下如果查驗我們先從第一個階段為什麼已經兩個禮拜還是沒有辦法給我們的民眾講清楚"},{"start":15459.541,"end":15472.661,"text":"誰可以回答這個問題農業部在目前美國如果使用跟加工的話他會在今年的七月之後到明年之間他才會進"},{"start":15474.483,"end":15497.799,"text":"不管進不進 政府已經告訴我們 你二月份公告的嘛對 我們已經準備配套措施 已經我們跟衛福部兩個部會兩個部一起來 正在討論當中很快就會定案正在討論當中很快就會定案 所以還沒定案不是 因為七月才會進來那昨天 前天 大前天 這幾天告訴我們的叫我們放棄一顆一顆檢查 會落實嗎"},{"start":15499,"end":15525.478,"text":"做得來嗎沒問題啊 這個可以做啊這個沒問題一顆一顆檢查沒問題花芽的進到加工廠不是這個好幾億顆不是這樣因為花芽率只有0.6一顆一顆檢查是嗎沒有錯啊進到加工廠的話進到加工廠的部分過去是只有0.6就是進口的0.6才會有花芽檢到才會有花芽那檢出來0.6"},{"start":15526.539,"end":15542.958,"text":"到這個指定加工廠之後我們就會去請這個加工廠他要有監視器然後這個封條要貼回頭他現在可以給你遴選的做兩家有來申請的但目前還沒有所以你一定要詳實讓民眾到目前為止我們只有一個要求"},{"start":15544.92,"end":15569.09,"text":"食安的問題絕對不能退讓對啦你告訴我們目前的方案你的人力夠嗎我們要請問這個在加工廠在挑選用機器挑啦由他們加工廠派專員然後用監視器機器還是要有人去看有人去操作啊專人監督啦所以我們一個結論也就是食安的部分一定"},{"start":15569.97,"end":15585.12,"text":"是零容忍 不可以馬虎第二個 我們絕對不贊成整櫃裡頭有馬鈴薯發芽的因為其他的部分不是那一顆跳掉就好了其他的交互感染的部分"},{"start":15587.202,"end":15601.702,"text":"那個是龍奎減或者是橡木感染的話報委員只要他那一批有發芽的我們都會去抽驗只要有驗出龍奎減200ppm以上都會退運 整批都會退運是"},{"start":15602.856,"end":15627.027,"text":"所以本席還在這邊還是強調校園的食安我們絕對是一定要把關國人的食安我們也一定要強制安全你們到目前為止所有的配套沒有一個部門可以說明清楚所以讓國人非常的憂心所以我們希望你剛剛又給我們透露一個現在才農業部跟衛福部在討論"},{"start":15628.288,"end":15656.194,"text":"你們的方案 本級個人希望你們要好好的去把你的方案弄出來你們真的 你要推讓 你還是要把關因為至少你的食品做出來 你的薯條薯片你正式把它貼上嘛我這個來源 是有經過這個櫃子裡頭的是有這個發芽的部分 含有發芽部分所剔除的這個原食材讓民眾可以安心嘛 可不可以這麼做"},{"start":15658.035,"end":15685.118,"text":"可不可以這麼做 那個是後市場 後市場對啊 可不可以這麼做 但是我也不可不可以這麼做 我花牙的 我花牙根本進不到加工廠啊花牙就被挑掉了 她的錢無期嘛所以到現在還是講不清楚把你們的方案趕快提出來 謝謝楊雄一委員 跟以前一模一樣啦因為我們等下委員會有臨時提案請列席的委員把握時間四分鐘 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來請郭益晴委員"},{"start":15693.049,"end":15711.243,"text":"好 謝謝主席喔 那有請農業部的房間署還有衛福部的食藥署衛福部莊次長 食藥署蔡副署長以及農業部胡次長"},{"start":15714.207,"end":15732.824,"text":"瑋恩好我想這個馬鈴薯的問題大家問了很多我就另外一個問題也是我一直在追的這個問題我想今天剛好兩個部會的這個組則或單位其實都在包含我們的房間署包含我們的學校署都在我剛剛才從8樓上來那剛剛也質詢了這個衛福部部長雖然我們這個動物新鑰是7月1號我們確定是之前要註銷了"},{"start":15736.927,"end":15760.474,"text":"這已經確定註銷了但是現場我收到許多來自一線的動物醫師獸醫師他們還是在跟我說目前已經有一些所謂的藥廠已經開始傾向所謂的選擇性的供貨也就是說他們開始在擔憂過去我人用的藥品我現在可以用的但是現在已經開始他們因為法規的不清楚因為配套的不清楚因為我們的管理機制不清楚所以他們現在開始藥廠限縮了"},{"start":15762.495,"end":15783.556,"text":"也會影響到整個所有的這個毛小孩他們在就醫的一個權利那我就要請問了如果就像剛剛這個衛福部部長他提供給我的這個資訊我們今天早上呢一進辦公室就說了這個資訊他說我們回到所謂的這個用藥的部分我們回到緊急用藥的平台但是我請教一下我們的這個"},{"start":15786.067,"end":15791.853,"text":"食藥署你知道這個用藥平台申請流程大概要多久嗎可以告訴我要多久嗎"},{"start":15793.072,"end":15817.919,"text":"如果我今天毛小孩躺在那邊要等著急診請問等到所謂的緊急用藥要申請的平台請問大概完整下來要多久兩到三週對不對謝謝委員請問一下我的毛小孩躺在那邊我兩天都等不下去我兩個小時都不能等我要等兩到三週我是不是直接打給寵物殯葬業比較快"},{"start":15820.2,"end":15824.723,"text":"謝謝委員一直關注這個問題我們也在檢討就是說我下午就會在立法院開一個一線的獸醫師他們來到現場反應這樣子的一個困境因為這個問題三天兩頭就會出現"},{"start":15840.956,"end":15855.689,"text":"負面表列願不願意為什麼我講正面表列跟負面表列現在我們採用的是正面表列正面表列我舉例100種可以用但100種之外的我每一個都要跑流程每一個如果新加進來的都要申請對不對負面表列是什麼"},{"start":15856.189,"end":15870.868,"text":"負面表列我只要匡列不管是食藥署還有獸醫師他們有共同的共識我把不能用的先匡進來剩下的讓他們可以回歸到他們可以有用藥的自主權可以有調劑權這個部分的負面表列有這麼難嗎"},{"start":15872.31,"end":15879.393,"text":"報告委員這涉及到人用藥的部分到底它的母數有多大我們不知道然後731張有1萬多張的藥證所以這個的母數太大而且主要是在人用藥這一點的話他們專業的理解如果大家都有這樣子的一個本位主義的考量人藥就是衛福部嘛那動物用藥就是我們農業部嘛是不是這樣我們兩邊是這樣嘛 中間要設一群"},{"start":15902.163,"end":15930.83,"text":"中間這一群的空裝級請問到底誰要來負責下午我們來座談會好好的聽一聽可以嗎可以請聽一線的聲音嗎不然這種事情三天兩頭就會出現我的辦公室已經疲於奔命了因為整個立法院大概只有我在追這件事情但問題是我們有三百四十萬隻的寵物我有兩百多萬的四組的一個家庭我擔心的還有一線生育師他們沒有用藥自主藥師公會他們還要再加進來"},{"start":15931.63,"end":15942.093,"text":"一個莫名其妙的一個角色我們到底這件事情可以撐多久啊是的 謝謝謝謝委員真的打從心裡真的謝謝委員的關注跟協助那現在731項已經到731項那731項公告為就整個轉為動保用藥所以大概轉為動保"},{"start":15951.015,"end":15977.143,"text":"動保用藥但是因為我們大家都知道動保用藥我們的這個族群是比較小的所以藥廠開始有考量啦過去這動保的用藥我有的是可以用人藥來做代替嘛比方說輸液就是嘛但現在因為這個限制下去了我人藥變成獸醫師他不能取用人藥所以我就說負面表列才能夠根本解決這樣的問題我們一起來研議好不好各方的意見我們都尊重"},{"start":15977.483,"end":15978.303,"text":"現在開始處理臨時提案供應案請議事委員宣讀"},{"start":16007.162,"end":16036.197,"text":"按由原農業部動植物防疫檢疫署於115年2月6日公告美國產加工用馬鈴薯輸入檢疫條件將加工用與先食用分流管理就前者規定發芽、發霉、腐爛者將直送指定加工廠並於選別階段整顆氣質銷毀微查該新這支相關配套卻複製缺乳恐損及民眾食品安全諸如農業部雖予詢答時表示現有17家加工業者"},{"start":16037.418,"end":16053.713,"text":"違確未能說明已申請為指定加工廠之數量與檢疫量能,遑論放行、押運等配套機制,再者就指定加工廠之管理。農業部固認為得以《植物防疫檢疫法》第17條第1項及《統法》第24條第1項第6款規定,處3萬至15萬元罰還,然該規定"},{"start":16061.109,"end":16078.681,"text":"乃細課與輸入人或其代理人申請與完成檢疫義務而非對指定加工廠之管理而有勿用法令之餘此外對加工用馬鈴薯之查驗比率行政院卓院長榮泰曾稱我們會整櫃檢查每一顆拿出來檢查據農業部卻抵觸"},{"start":16081.903,"end":16109.848,"text":"卓院長榮泰之宣示及其對民眾食品安全之重視警院每批抽驗60%顯著商行政院關係食品安全之政策方針原要求農業部於7日內就上開問題向立法院財政委員會提出加工用馬鈴薯進口檢疫配套作為包括但不限於指定加工廠之資格條件管理規定法院依據及查驗比例之精進作為之書面報告提案人"},{"start":16110.408,"end":16134.085,"text":"李燕秀 羅明采 林思敏 陳玉珍 劉淑冰宣讀完畢好 請問一下對於這個臨時提案那個陳玉珍委員我覺得是不是我們應該要寫說按照這個卓中泰院長的宣誓就是說進櫃的時候整櫃檢查每一顆拿出來檢查照這個方式去執行嘛這是院長的莊重的宣誓吧"},{"start":16135.046,"end":16160.993,"text":"我們要求他執行要這樣做嘛報告的時候是不是有請他寫這樣子就是到時候進來的時候每一櫃喔整櫃檢查每一棵拿出來檢查這樣國人才能放心嘛 不然就不要進口啊好 呃 主委院長的文是那個農業部來對不對 主委院長是說整櫃檢查每一棵拿出來檢查這非常好的做法 事實上應該是要讓他不能進來啦對啊 發芽的"},{"start":16166.28,"end":16192.175,"text":"要改成發芽的爸爸主席院長他所講的是在因為有發芽所以我們進到加工廠那個我們是絕對要怎麼可以進到加工廠再來啊你要去那個加工廠那個加工廠還是在境外還沒有進到那個如果說有發芽有花莓或者是有腐爛的話那個挑掉一棵都不能進加工廠啊"},{"start":16192.955,"end":16218.277,"text":"所以即使到接工廠 其實他還是在保稅區裡面還沒有入境你挑掉那些不表示其他沒有挑掉沒有被感染啊我是看獨立專家寫的所以因為我們在邊境上的時候0.6%所以你們要照這個組長說每一顆都要檢查喔對啊 他是有發芽的啊你沒有檢查怎麼知道沒有發芽啊就是因為檢查檢查到了所以我們才要每一顆啊"},{"start":16219.898,"end":16240.453,"text":"一櫃裡頭有一顆就要全部整櫃那是不能入境喔那是在保稅區裡面的加工廠保稅區裡頭會有加工廠是吧保稅區現在就有加工廠有一些加工廠本身就有加工所以如果沒有在保稅區裡頭的加工廠就沒有辦法"},{"start":16242.234,"end":16258.793,"text":"我們會要求跟保稅區一樣的這個要求的標準不是不是他都進不來怎麼要求咧不是因為現在的狀況是他已經進不來了嘛照你的說法怎麼要求咧不是有一些保稅區就是在加工廠裡面咧就是他經過灌入署如果有的加工廠沒有在保稅區內你怎麼要求那個我們會"},{"start":16259.654,"end":16284.116,"text":"要求他們全部都要用監視器所以你已經讓他入境了啊這樣子你還是讓他入境啊那個還沒有我們還沒有簽發沒有在保稅區的加工廠你要怎麼讓他我們要求他完全跟保稅區一樣的這個條件所以還是有入境啊因為他沒在加工廠那個沒有入境因為我們檢疫症沒有發的話他不能去做加工對他東西已經入境但在那個標籤上還沒有入境啦對"},{"start":16286.578,"end":16313.536,"text":"所以實體已經入境但是在法律層級上他還沒有入境而且我們沒有簽發檢疫統一書這樣的話他就不能夠你們為什麼一定要讓發芽的進來啊為什麼不就讓他在海外就不要讓他進口為什麼要那種檢驗能力你們太辛苦了吧因為那個是加工在加工廠你們為什麼要讓發芽進來你們沒有那麼你們的量能沒有那麼大我們今天一個牛呢你都沒有預算可以幫我們做你有多少預算可以做這個事啊你有多少預算檢查每一顆馬鈴薯"},{"start":16314.757,"end":16342.537,"text":"這個是因為我們每一年的需要量很多而且那個發芽率很低對啊 基因要量很多你就沒有那麼多人可以檢查你的量能做什麼那發芽率很低你如果說一顆檢到整個給人家退回去的話在國際上的貿易談判上的話有很多的國家就說你這樣我也要求你這樣所以你不會檢到一顆就把它檢批退回去就對了是不是過去 目前在先時用也是這樣子不會就對了所以如果有一顆發芽你也不會整顆退回去喔在先時用的是這樣子喔就是這樣子喔發芽也是可以進來"},{"start":16343.581,"end":16359.908,"text":"不可以 發芽也不可以進加工廠來意思就是說講清楚一點如果整顆檢查到有一顆發芽的你們整櫃每一顆拿出來檢查對不對不是 先知的就退了就退了但是如果它是用加工用的加工用的而檢到有一顆它發芽的話"},{"start":16361.349,"end":16367.672,"text":"那如果是加工的檢查到有一顆有發芽的你就整櫃每一顆都會檢查對不對這個檢查量能是由你們檢查還是由加工廠來檢查"},{"start":16377.276,"end":16399.914,"text":"所以你是要給民間 所以這個檢查的責任是賦予民間嘛不是你們公務部門檢查嘛 對不對不是 我們去監督 我們也會派人去啊你們就是監督 但是用加工廠來檢查就對了 對所以我們的食安要依賴在加工廠的道德良心上面喔不是 不是 這個這個 媛媛你不要講這樣 講得很害羞沒有沒有 沒有 不信不信 大家都去抗議加工廠不是抗議加工廠"},{"start":16401.795,"end":16420.788,"text":"你們要監督嘛你們沒有量人嘛你們要監督我相信你們會監督嘛那加工廠一顆一顆檢查嘛對不對好但是你們不一定有你們沒有量人一顆一顆就是說工部門沒有量人一顆一顆檢查但是私部門可以這樣做對不對所以我們當然是要依賴私部門要有這個良心啊不是嗎"},{"start":16421.528,"end":16429.915,"text":"那個會有監視器監督啦而且我們到最後看他這樣分類是不是清楚可以的話我們才會核發檢疫症啦就是他監督的那個能力那大家還有沒有看到的時候剛剛有睡了覺眼睛沒有睜開那一顆就跑過去不會啦不會不會不會嘛對不對"},{"start":16439.683,"end":16457.093,"text":"一進來的話我們都是消費者我也可能輸到委員也可能輸到所以你為什麼要讓他進來呢你為什麼要增加自己的麻煩呢就不要讓他進來啊就全部退回去為什麼要分先時跟加工呢就全部退回去不就一了百了一勞永逸嗎其實就是這一次這樣分類以後以後把篩選的責任"},{"start":16461.935,"end":16478.164,"text":"放在加工廠 那就依賴他的道德良心嘛我相信他們有良心 我不是說他們沒有良心不是 那個要在指定地區 指定地區不是說他隨便在他的房間裡面就婚我知道 我知道 就是按照一顆一顆這樣過去嘛他有時候也有疏忽嘛 也不一定啊因為檢疫率百分之百啊"},{"start":16479.165,"end":16501.305,"text":"但是我們會去做最後的...你們會去做我知道那你們就不會百分之百如果我們直接把他退回去我們不就沒有擔心這回事嗎因為雙方的談判到時候他們也可以這樣報復我們為什麼要做這種談判呢為什麼不做國內的食安最重要呢你可以把金門牛說距離位置金門牛地理位置都可以不用進來了你台灣已經見到粉島了我們就先把關倒退金門的口蹄壓不爽跟我們說的口蹄壓不爽"},{"start":16503.467,"end":16512.229,"text":"我不反對你們我不反對我不反對嚴格我不反對嚴格我支持嚴格我支持嚴格你馬鈴薯要給我嚴格嘛為什麼全台灣的食安會可以不要嚴格我沒有反對你阻止喔我說你要輔導嘛我不反對我不反對真的我不反對嚴格嚴格是食安我非常支持那馬鈴薯不重要嗎很重要啊加工產品不重要嗎都很重要啊"},{"start":16528.533,"end":16554.143,"text":"有一顆有犯就是退回去啊談判談不完回去再談啊因為這兩國談的因為我們馬鈴薯也有出口啦是嗎 再談嘛國會也會要求我們同樣的條件國會給你壓力你不能回去再談嗎我們要給你壓力啊這國際的談判不是所以就是因為你們沒有辦法談判說老百姓可以承受這個風險嘛大家都很重視食品安全但是要尊重專業啦"},{"start":16554.963,"end":16559.566,"text":"尊重專業就說老百姓要承受這個風險就對了你也是要老百姓承受風險嘛絕對是沒有風險的狀況之下我們才會去答應沒有風險你保證沒有風險"},{"start":16568.846,"end":16586.565,"text":"最低的風險啦最低的風險啦最低的風險不是沒有風險嘛對不對但是沒有風險是我們共同的目標啊沒有風險就是讓他不要進來就完全沒有風險嘛是不是你們不要那麼辛苦嗎你們幹嘛要那麼辛苦你們幹嘛要那麼辛苦增加你們的量能你們很辛苦啊"},{"start":16587.847,"end":16605.947,"text":"談不好的人回去再好好談到好嘛國會給你壓力嘛 老百姓給你壓力嘛我們的意見我們非常尊重我們也會帶回去做在整個政策上的那個郁真偉我覺得他開放2月6號這個公告回到經濟委員會看這個公告是不是到時候回到經濟委員會去做審查"},{"start":16607.609,"end":16609.331,"text":"因為這個不屬於在我們財務會但是我們財務會的部分我們今天就是做這個臨時提案但是它這個公告的內容是屬於在經濟委員會裡面那如果我們回到經濟委員會把它拉回來做審查因為"},{"start":16622.666,"end":16651.375,"text":"從今天的這個專案報告還有大家質詢的結果仍然就對於他未來能夠在加工的地點去做怎麼樣的審查把責任都給民間還有地方的稽查人員有沒有這麼多的人力其實這個對實案來說還是有很大的漏洞跟恐懼那這個我想國人自己國人都看得到這整件事情我們今天就先就這個臨時提案看在文字上大家有什麼樣的意見我們先來去做調整"},{"start":16654.295,"end":16678.86,"text":"文字上你哪裡要做調整是文字上事實上我們已經跟助理已經有交換過意見你稍微念一下你希望做什麼樣的調整有修正的部分就是在提案的部分第六行現有17加工業者事實上是17進口業者那個加工是不是把它改成進口那另外再往下的話"},{"start":16683.327,"end":16706.342,"text":"倒數第六行第七行稱我們會整櫃檢查每一棵拿出來檢查的前面是不是就加上三個字花芽的等一下這個前面是行政院左院長農太誠稱左院長有說花芽的這幾個字嗎他如果有你就可以寫啊有啊他的意思就是這樣你不能改他的話這腎上作恨給他加字喔"},{"start":16707.703,"end":16723.722,"text":"他就是發芽進到那個加工廠挑的時候我們是租客董事長這樣子啊因為這是左院長講的話你不能給他改啊他有說發芽的有沒有程度檢查當時我想補允你都不知道他的意思就是在加工廠裡面啊他有沒有這樣講"},{"start":16725.933,"end":16745.027,"text":"主任長有沒有這樣講主任長是我們會整櫃檢查每一顆都拿出來檢查你不能把主任長的話你怎麼可以自己解釋一下全世界在海關沒有百分之百每一顆所以你說的是主任長說的話是做不到的我們現在只是引述他的話他的意思就是花芽的啦花芽的我們會你先應對他的意思嗎"},{"start":16745.868,"end":16766.714,"text":"我知道啊 我知道卓院長就是他就是這個意思不是在海關那個一億多顆有多少可是我們每個老百姓聽起來都覺得他不是只是指發芽的啊如果會把他解釋成委員一直認為是那個事全世界沒有人這樣做市長 這個是卓院長講話我們只是引述他的話嘛 對不對我們只是引述他 我們並不是要改他的話這樣都會誤解啦"},{"start":16768.334,"end":16791.969,"text":"因為全世界沒有那他就必須在總質詢讓大家知道其實次長你不需要堅持因為卓院長講的話其實都有錄音帶都有影音現在在網路上在電視上國人都看得到那我覺得因為你們農業部其實有很多其實去做說明你們用力自己去做說明說卓院長的意思是什麼那但是就不要去改卓院長那個次長我提出一個建議就是"},{"start":16793.05,"end":16820.636,"text":"院長的字不要改他的話語不要改但是你在農業部這邊的就可以說僅願於每批於邊境檢疫上面每批有發芽的這做抽驗啊不是這個所有的所有進口的所有進口的我們會去抽六成啦會去抽六成不是發芽的我們才抽就每一批要抽百分之六進口的兩成是每一顆嗎"},{"start":16822.396,"end":16824.158,"text":"所以我就講前面要加三個字花芽的我們會"},{"start":16845.539,"end":16871.59,"text":"市長這我來幫你我到時候有質詢我問一下院長他是不是講的是發芽的讓他來自己解釋他的話好不好你不要幫他解釋嘛你不要堅持因為我們就叫卓院長因為你要提報告報告的說明你們再去說明我們的話你不要改好不好我們的臨時代你不要改但是因為我們只是要一個書面報告回覆你再報告回覆你可以說明清楚卓院長的意思到底是什麼好不好"},{"start":16872.696,"end":16897.724,"text":"那後面還有一個請願邊境檢疫上十批查六批每十批查六批就是百分之六十啦百分之六十啦那個那個所以那個郁正兒他就是沒有百分之百嘛好不好就是沒有百分之百對啊然後接下來是不是再加一句話各位委員請我大概說明一下這個在"},{"start":16901.018,"end":16917.455,"text":"在這一個逗點之後再加上如有花芽的逐一檢查哪裡就是我們要加進來就是現在就是這個每10批抽菸6批那後面逗點之後如有花芽的逐一檢查"},{"start":16920.225,"end":16936.722,"text":"市長 剛才我質詢的時候你就是這樣回覆我我跟你講 你的回覆你就乾脆因為我這個就是要一個書面 完整的說明跟報告針對今天所有委員對於這個馬鈴薯進口的這個修正的條件你就在你的報告裡面說明清楚因為你剛剛 你剛剛就是這樣回覆我你現在又來修正你的說法跟我的 我覺得沒有必要 我就是要一個"},{"start":16942.708,"end":16963.102,"text":"完整的說明報告我們今天不是要做一個決議我們今天還需要做決議說那個沒有以前不能進口我們今天沒有要做決議就需要一個書面報告餒對我們會交啊七天內我們會交我現在是怕說因為各位委員名字都在列在上面了你如果上面所寫的這個組決議到十年後二十年後被我們的後代子孫笑啊覺得啊"},{"start":16970.247,"end":16986.692,"text":"所以我就說 把他修正好一點的話 問政品質很好啊所以你剛剛說的是 左院長說的整櫃檢查每一顆拿出來檢查會不會後代子孫笑嘛那你要去跟他講啊 市長市長 你這樣在羞辱我們財政委員會的委員喔你指的是說 我們這樣子寫我們剛剛執行的委員會不會國人笑不是 把它改成更好一點 更精準一點啦"},{"start":16994.775,"end":17015.566,"text":"因為我剛剛就是這樣回覆你們卓榮泰院長就是這樣子講的我一個字都沒有增加剛才我在質詢的時候你也是這樣回覆的我也沒有增加你的字我也沒有減少你的字你現在告訴我說我剛剛質詢會不會被笑如果是這樣的話我就收回啦好不好因為現在快一點了大家都"},{"start":17016.746,"end":17034.838,"text":"我只是因為怕一點兩點我今天耗到五點我也跟你耗到在這裡市長就是發芽的那三個字不要加啦因為那三個字是左院長說的嘛我們前面有寫行政院左院長陳稱嘛那如果他要解釋是發芽的我們可以再問他讓他有機會解釋嘛你不要自己幫他詮釋嘛左院長說沒有這個決心每一顆要檢查啊你太小看他為國人捍衛食安的決心"},{"start":17048.066,"end":17052.447,"text":"第17家進口業者其他都不改?其他都不改就照原來的臨時提案來就照這樣好不好有沒有意見好沒有意見那我們就照這個臨時提案"},{"start":17076.589,"end":17083.493,"text":"報告跟說明及答詢完畢委員質詢未答覆或請補充資訊請相關機關於一週內已書面答覆委員另有要求期限者從其所定"},{"start":17105.246,"end":17111.968,"text":"中央民國115年度中央政府總預算有關主計總署審計部審計部台北市審計處審計部新北市審計處審計部桃園市審計處審計部台中市審計處審計部台南市審計處審計部高雄市審計處第27款直轄市及縣市政府第三項一般性補助款"},{"start":17129.512,"end":17145.974,"text":"財政部主管第一目財政部第二目國庫署第13項一般性補助款其他第一至第八目災害準備金第二準備金均另則其繼續審查本次會議委員若有相關預算提案請"},{"start":17147.256,"end":17165.529,"text":"今天下午五点前送到我们财政委员会会议议事人员收件本次会议议程已进行完毕让不在场的委员补题书面咨询一并列入记录刊登公报并请议事人员协助处理我们今天散会谢谢大家大家辛苦了"},{"start":17182.168,"end":17183.771,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":17214.525,"end":17215.208,"text":"好來你按在左邊"}]}},{"id":"168828","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168828","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be544266a38718e15090de6726ceb1fc87991608965b28c46199ccdae08b56ec4be6015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:50:01 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對不對你可以幫你領選的"},{"start":195.624,"end":210.094,"text":"報告委員在邊境查驗不合格的退役那剛才所問到的是說如果要到一個指定場所那指定場所就衛福部來講曾經有申請過指定場所是有兩家業者曾經來申請過的這張還可不可以做"},{"start":217.399,"end":234.925,"text":"因為我們在當下不合格當下他必須提改善計畫的時候就衛生局就去現場查核這個在食品衛生安全是業者有需要的時候提出來衛生局去監察這個是食品衛生安全的部分"},{"start":235.865,"end":253.619,"text":"那你說你沒有退讓以往你只要查到一顆絕對整櫃退現在重點是在查到一顆把那個爛的拿掉其他的可以來篩選甚至有告訴我們我們會一顆一顆來篩選你有這個能力嗎報告委員你們有這個能力嗎"},{"start":258.423,"end":273.271,"text":"報告委員您剛才所問的部分是簡易的部分那我剛才所說明是食品衛生安全當下如果查驗我們先從第一個階段為什麼已經兩個禮拜還是沒有辦法給我們的民眾講清楚"},{"start":275.576,"end":293.939,"text":"誰可以回答這個問題誰可以回答這個問題農業部在目前美國如果使用跟加工的話他會在今年的七月之後到明年之間他才會進不管進不進政府已經告訴我你二月份公告的嘛"},{"start":294.74,"end":317.833,"text":"對 我們已經準備配套措施已經我們跟衛福部兩個部會兩個部一起來正在討論當中很快就會定案正在討論當中很快就會定案所以還沒定案不是 因為7月才會進來那昨天前天大前天這幾天告訴我們的叫我們放棄一顆一顆檢查會落實嗎做得來嗎沒問題啊 這個可以做啊這個沒問題一顆一顆檢查沒問題"},{"start":321.584,"end":329.229,"text":"花芽的進道加工廠不是這個好幾億顆不是這樣花芽的進道加工廠一顆一顆檢查是嗎沒有錯啊進道加工廠的話進道加工廠的部分過去是只有0.6就是進口的0.6才會有花芽檢到才會有花芽那檢出來0.6"},{"start":342.597,"end":355.052,"text":"到這個指定加工廠之後我們就會去請這個加工廠他要有監視器然後這個封條他現在可以跟你領選的就兩家我來申請的但你一定要詳實讓民眾到目前為止我們只有一個要求"},{"start":360.581,"end":385.131,"text":"食安的問題絕對不能退讓對啦你告訴我們目前的方案你的人力夠嗎我們要請問這個在加工廠在挑選啦用機器挑啦由他們加工廠派專員然後用監視器機器還是要有人去看有人去操作啊所以我們一個結論也就是食安的部分一定"},{"start":386.031,"end":401.159,"text":"是零容忍 不可以馬虎第二個 我們絕對不贊成整櫃裡頭有這個馬鈴薯發芽的因為其他的部分不是那一顆跳掉就好了其他的交互感染的部分"},{"start":402.76,"end":417.737,"text":"那個是龍奎減或者是相互感染的話那個...報委員只要他那一批有發芽的我們都會去抽驗只要有驗出龍奎減200ppm以上都會退運 整批都會退運是"},{"start":418.894,"end":443.065,"text":"所以本席還在這邊還是強調校園的食安我們絕對是一定要把關國人的食安我們也一定要強制安全你們到目前為止所有的配套沒有一個部門可以說明清楚所以讓國人非常的憂心所以我們希望你剛剛又給我們透露一個現在才農業部跟衛福部在討論"},{"start":444.346,"end":462.85,"text":"你們的方案 本級個人希望你們要好好的去把你的方案弄出來你們真的 你要推讓 你還是要把關因為至少你的食品做出來 你的薯條薯片你正式把它貼上嘛我這個來源 是有經過這個櫃子裡頭的是我這個發芽的部分 含有發芽部分所剔除的這個原食材讓民眾可以安心嘛 可不可以這麼做"},{"start":474.076,"end":484.488,"text":"可不可以這麼做那個是後市場的後市場的對呀 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來所以那個受傷就是只要受傷就醫他就算所以那個人數會比較多那因為現在已經115年了那為什麼可以引用的資料是112年的統計"},{"start":252.856,"end":281.272,"text":"那到底就是說難道是要經過什麼樣的認證程序才會納入統計因為我聽部長回應好像應該只是健保的對我們現在也在那個有一個是事故傷害的那個那個會議的話都是會用這個健保資料先跑不過他還是有一個時間落差所以這中間應該沒有什麼認證程序就是健保資料但是有時候比如說他是交通事故的話再勾擊那個交通部的資料"},{"start":282.392,"end":306.685,"text":"那事實上 兒少傷亡的統計只是我們用來作為預防的手段那我們不是要一個完整的數字我們要的是什麼樣的傷害然後好發在什麼樣的族群然後我們可以去找出一個最大的這個保護跟最好的預防措施然後努力的去落實然後再看看說成效如何這樣子那目前呢"},{"start":307.785,"end":314.362,"text":"通報監測統計的分析實在看不出來這個成效在哪裡因為"},{"start":318.968,"end":331.662,"text":"剛剛對於就是說你們有提到這個現行事故傷害監測屬於這個公衛生議題那公共衛生的議題那我國是採取這個ICD-10的數據去進行統計分析"},{"start":340.401,"end":364.2,"text":"這個提供給各部會去就是說它作為這個政策的參考其實像這樣子國際疾病與這個相關健康問題統計分類這樣子其實你們現在應該是到第10版第10版了對 要準備要進11了ICT-10但其實這樣子其實是很困擾的"},{"start":365.592,"end":385.391,"text":"因為我們看一下這個國際疾病分類第十版對於這個意外事故它的確有特別的分類代碼剛剛部長也特別講說如果交通它還有一些認證但是這套系統主要是用來作為疾病傷害中毒診斷的分類"},{"start":386.892,"end":405.178,"text":"然後健保給父的用途啊不是用來做這個兒少虐待傷害甚至性侵害的統計分類那你們不能因為ICD-10有帶到這個外因性的傷害然後就忽略我們兒少法就是要針對這個兒少有特別的保護"},{"start":406.258,"end":423.132,"text":"所以針對他們可能接受到的這些親愛的類型去特別設計一套有別於成人的通報監測跟統計的分類的制度部長你們回去是不是可以再好好的檢討規劃思考一下"},{"start":424.152,"end":444.489,"text":"我想今天這個是很重要的一個點我想這個非常贊成委員的看法因為要有好的這個數據根據才能夠作為這個政策上的評估或者是建立那所以我們在那個兒少全法的草案我們現在預告的草案的"},{"start":446.211,"end":460.409,"text":"49條就把它納入這個兒少事故傷害的資料登錄統計及分析這個業務在裡面只是說過去因為我們的健保資料庫很好用它的這個"},{"start":462.17,"end":488.524,"text":"收集的最方便最完整所以以健保資料庫為準但是在事故傷害的分析上還需要採用到其他的指引比如說世界衛生組織也有事故傷害分析指引等等去搭配可能還要涉及到跟其他資料庫的串接所以這個我們會把它納入在我們未來的工作裡面"},{"start":489.363,"end":514.62,"text":"好 那我想我們不想過多的統計但也不想有漏網之魚是所以一個符合的一個統計分析是很重要的那我知道就是歐美國家對兒童的保護是非常重視那部長如果有機會的話也應該有可以親自到國外去考察好"},{"start":515.02,"end":542.1,"text":"那了解一下他們的法律核心保護的精神跟這個實際上的操作呢的這些職權跟措施我們法律訂的再好如果說單靠衛福部的資源其實還有這個各地方政府的這個社福人力加上就是說沒有足夠的這個職權其實很難很難真正去落實法令的規定那"},{"start":543.081,"end":561.023,"text":"加上就是說我在這邊也提供一個意見就是說盡速去協調這些社福人員跟這個富有警察的職權建立一個合作的機制才能真的落實那在經過很多這些兒少的這些傷害案件"},{"start":561.704,"end":575.871,"text":"好像也沒有看到這個婦幼警察的功能就效果不彰那你們在調查兒童受到虐待或者不法侵害的事件的時候有沒有協同婦幼警力陪伴有嗎有吧 應該會一起"},{"start":579.928,"end":606.1,"text":"有 好如果說發現有具體事實那是不是可以以這個現行犯實施必要的即時的處置也可以 好那衛福部跟這個婦幼警察的指揮協調聯繫啊就是說你們部長可不可以稍微說明一下因為很多時候感覺是兩條平行線在走沒有太多交集好 我請我們那個保護司司長來說明好 來"},{"start":607.981,"end":636.296,"text":"是委員因為其實平常這個各地方政府都已經建立了涉陣警政這個聯繫的管道所以他們如果遇到緊急事件其實都是立刻都可以一起去協同方式好我想這個中間可能有一些你們可以再多加了解因為今天這樣我倆時間也沒有很多所以可能後續可以再把一些細節再多加說明"},{"start":637.116,"end":663.439,"text":"那我是希望說在這次的修法可以落實整個婦幼警察的角色那沒有法源依據婦幼警察可能他們可能也只是在警察的職權範圍內呢就是很被動消極的在執行業務但是公務人員呢恐怕也很難去協調去就是說很難協調去他們很難協調他們去協助調查那如果部長認為有必要的話呢"},{"start":665.2,"end":689.455,"text":"本席也將立刻就是我們也會來馬上來提案來支持就是說我們的兒少虐待跟這個性侵害調查那地方這個警政機關呢應該要派員協助調查並且要做這個很必要的處置那我希望說衛福部能夠展現你們的魄力那也希望部長就是說現在或許去有些國家比較困難但是"},{"start":690.896,"end":711.826,"text":"但是還是鼓勵就是說部長可以親自到國外了解一下他們的做法那盡速跟這整個警政單位來溝通思考利用這次修法機會讓我們的這個保護兒少的新時代可以做得更好好謝謝好謝謝委員未來在修法的時候我們再向委員請教好謝謝"},{"start":712.526,"end":720.972,"text":"好謝謝陳穎委員我想衛福部可能要針對陳穎委員因為他針對原住民本來在事故傷害"}]}},{"id":"168826","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168826","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442f2a54e3abff027fb6e07bf52eec0dd4908965b28c46199ccc8e9d6e5b85468935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"12:39:04 - 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那我們有請部長有請石部長好 張委員好部長首先我要肯定就是在這次的修法確實是有往前走我們也看到納入的兒少工作證然後我想這是非常重要的一步因為我自己的助理其實就有來自於社工而且他們曾經也有人擔任過居家托育的這個督導所以我想今天就要把今天這個"},{"start":32.015,"end":53.884,"text":"制度到底能不能接軌到落地來跟部長做一些討論首先第一個部分就是說我先確認一下我們這次的修法方向是未來的法定代理人不能夠再直接透過收出養機構進行媒合而且必須要由地方政府來進行出養的必要性評估之後才會進入整個的程序對嗎我的理解正確嗎對這個是新的修法把它明定了"},{"start":54.104,"end":78.544,"text":"好 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我們就看國人怎麼想啦事實上你可以看到一件事情"},{"start":219.12,"end":246.489,"text":"過去實務上為什麼採取有花芽腐爛就整櫃退運因為我們政府有這個條件有這個能力去逐批逐顆篩選嗎現在有這個能力跟條件嗎所有的做法是一樣的一樣的整批退運跟進來逐批篩選是要一樣喔在邊境我們是邊境檢查完之後如果有花芽的部分我們在林業部的部分我告訴你啦"},{"start":247.449,"end":261.839,"text":"放寬就是放寬,你放寬之後改變做法,要的是食安品質的把關,那是後面在講的可是你不要連第一段都想要矇騙今天消費者嘛我直接講,現在不僅沒有整批退嘛你把腐爛發芽的篩選責任請交給誰?這個是衛福部衛福部就交給你啦"},{"start":273.2,"end":286.837,"text":"包委員只要有發芽的部分那就是農業部他們當然會把它剔除掉啦那這些這一批沒有發芽我們會去檢驗它的農魁檢超過200ppm一樣整批把它退貨是 拜託一下"},{"start":287.728,"end":298.781,"text":"你剛剛說腐爛發芽就要交給衛福部 不是吧發芽腐爛還有花莓這個是衛福部他們會去檢查請問誰篩檢 本來誰篩檢 現在誰篩檢您現在所講的那個是在加工廠裡面"},{"start":306.269,"end":334.587,"text":"在加工廠 加工廠去了嘛不是 那個還沒有入境那個必須要在那邊 我要先舉個例子齁你可以舉一個例子告訴我 過去啊在邊境檢查 有把整批貨櫃內每個物品都拿出來檢查每個馬鈴薯拿出來檢查 有做過嗎以前我們是全部所有的這個進口的馬鈴薯 每一顆一顆拿出來檢查60% 我們的做法是60% 我想問有沒有每一顆一顆一顆拿出來檢查人力部允許 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這個兩位我們看這個 嚴兵會一百一十五年度的預算一百一十五年度跟一百一十四年度來做比較的話是增加了七千兩百二十三萬增加了七千兩百二十三萬五千元但是呢"},{"start":57.038,"end":77.927,"text":"這樣的增加那為什麼我們就以幾個例子原住民族住宅四年三期計劃就是行政院核定的計劃114到117年度建構及修繕住宅的經費每年是1億3800萬"},{"start":81.226,"end":103.327,"text":"但是一百一十五年度只有編列四千七百三十萬元不足九千零七十萬元這麼重要的尤其是我們援助民主的住宅自由力跟一般國民少了少了非常的多"},{"start":105.106,"end":133.299,"text":"請問一下主席長你了解嗎?主席長因為這個部分我等會查一下目前我們再查一下這個部分那到底我們如果說每一年1億3我們應該會主有編列啊它是增加7億多不是增加7千多萬因為剛剛上年度比較是增加7億多你說什麼?7億多不是7千多萬"},{"start":134.724,"end":157.092,"text":"百萬千萬億七億多七億兩千兩百三十三萬五千億增加這麼多卻是這麼重要的民生需求對不對住是最重要的卻是少了這麼多"},{"start":160.525,"end":178.311,"text":"這個請主席長我們再查明一下不只是這個跟林森很多減少的你們回去去了解一下到底什麼問題然後錢又亂花這個跟省紀長也有關係主紀長跟這個主紀長原住民組委員會從114年度去年開始"},{"start":189.688,"end":215.49,"text":"事辦所謂的公法人事辦計畫以這個115年度來說每個部落事辦計畫一個部落120萬元去年只有100萬今年提高到120萬元而這樣的一個事辦計畫違反原住民族基本法"},{"start":216.618,"end":245.526,"text":"因為它對應的是原住民族綜合發展基金根本原住民族綜合發展基金按照基本法的規定是沒有這個部分另外啊就業基金也不符合原住民族工作權保障法的就業基金的資用相關的這些尤其是按照原住民族基本法的規定第二條之一啊必須要"},{"start":246.462,"end":273.388,"text":"定定啊 演兵會必須要訂定部落之核定組織部落會議之組成結一程序及其他相關事項之辦法必須要先訂這個法規命令才可以成為部落公法人現在根本就沒有這個辦法都沒有發布啊你去辦 你去試辦有什麼用呢被試辦的"},{"start":275.758,"end":302.912,"text":"被事辦的部落他沒有公法人地位如何能有成效呢所以這個部分啊這個主計長如果一個部落一百二十萬如果這個法規公布發布施行之後你知道原住民有多少部落嗎七百多個部落你有辦法支付那麼多錢嗎對不對"},{"start":306.809,"end":334.876,"text":"所以要請沈記長要查核要審計好不好好 我們已經這個案子就已經給他他的效益怎麼樣我們已經在查了這效益不符合啦對 不符合我們會提出我們的審計意見我們去做了解好 謝謝再請沈記長就這個部落工法人示範企劃詳細的再回覆鄭天才委員接下來"}]}},{"id":"168823","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168823","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be54425c7a10067ba2aaba6e07bf52eec0dd4908965b28c46199cc172f596e3a4508175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"12:32:33 - 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謝謝主席 有請部長有請施部長"},{"start":13.503,"end":30.316,"text":"陳委員好部長好我今天跟您談這個收出養的問題對一個孩子來說他被出養大概對醫生是非常重大的一個影響或是改變但是就我個人的實務經驗來說其實收出養這個制度它影響的至少有三方面"},{"start":30.976,"end":52.137,"text":"一個是就是出養家庭所謂的原生家庭孩子本身當然有但是對於收養家庭其實也是都是一生非常長期而且不是很容易做的功課那部長這個經過凱凱案之後整個收養制度我國收出養制度依照現行的方式是由地方政府來負責出養的必要性評估"},{"start":55,"end":58.664,"text":"然後有民間媒合這個機構來負責這個收養家庭評估媒合還有兒童這個追蹤的這個發展等等等等但是問題我覺得不是有沒有分工而是說分工之後有沒有足夠的專業能力去接住這項高度專業的這個工作"},{"start":73.84,"end":79.003,"text":"那過去民間機構他是專責的但是現在地方政府他們是用第一線的社工來做這件事他等於是監辦然後還有案件的這個量重然後個案又分散老實說他們那個經驗的累積不容易所以事實上他的整個評估標準就是說"},{"start":93.632,"end":108.017,"text":"他自然會有落差這是我非常重視一件事情那利新基金會其實早在去年五月他就發文提醒了無論是社會局的家庭福利組的社工或是在全國各地社福中心基層的人員"},{"start":109.377,"end":124.803,"text":"他們本來的工作是聚焦在這個所謂的社區支持跟初期的預防那在出養必要性這個理解上他在理解上或許還不是很充足所以社家屬是不是可以讓我們了解說目前的狀況如何當把這個工作交給他們的時候"},{"start":128.684,"end":144.339,"text":"你們做了哪些努力跟委員說明大概現在統計大概一年大概差不多200案的收出養需求那我們是全國大概是建置156個社福中心所以以負荷來講這個到"},{"start":146.761,"end":159.605,"text":"倒不如其他其他的案量可能更多那再來就是這個收出養的這個媒合機構這個確實是一個重點我今天不好意思我現在談的就不是說那個量的問題我剛剛很強調一個專業嘛因為過去是專責但是可看到你們做的"},{"start":164.206,"end":187.538,"text":"不同的一些分工所以剛剛大概也有提到說那麼盡量把他的這個專業的這個能力提升所以也發展了那個叫收出養必要評估的報告的格式大概要評估哪一些東西然後再辦理這個教育訓練的課程我聽說現在有一些課程啊那請問社家屬這個課程你的師資夠嗎課程的我本來以為就是說你們會說現在對於這個"},{"start":193.993,"end":200.799,"text":"要了解這個出養的必要性這個 必要性評估嘛對 必要性評估 你們有相關的訓練嗎那個有開課 那個施肢夠嗎施肢應該沒有問題施肢的量能是夠的嗎 我覺得這個很重要啊那麼台灣親子共學教育促進會也有幾點聲明主張啦那我覺得其中最重要的一點就是訪視指引他應該根據風險的分層來修訂"},{"start":222.837,"end":251.357,"text":"威福部目前現行的指引並沒有依照個案的風險來做的差異所以來根據他這個來調整訪視的頻率或是協作的要求那部長您可不可以承諾或是您覺得認不認同未來高風險個案你知道高風險個案就是指譬如說出養前的站託像凱凱那初次收養的保姆或是說有特殊需求有特殊發展需求的孩子那要有更密集的多方的會商嗎"},{"start":253.463,"end":274.904,"text":"有關於風險分級就是讓他的訪視頻率不會大家都一樣要調整一下這目前有一些做法我是不是請署長說明一下簡單說明好嗎那現在已經是對於他在剛安置初期的部分他的訪視頻率會拉到比較高但你的指引還沒有改變嗎你的指引還沒有改變嗎"},{"start":276.26,"end":279.524,"text":"已經有修了然後不同的需求那我希望以後我能夠看到這個部分的報告一個月內的報告我稍微了解現在運作的一個情況"},{"start":291.8,"end":319.122,"text":"這個公私力協作本身是沒有問題的問題就是如果專業沒有到位的話你把風險是分散而不是降低我們目的是降低這個風險那受所長之助因為我們處理是最脆弱的孩子我們必須承認本來就不應該當作一般的行政業務來處理但我要強調這件事同樣不可以給第一線的社工做這個道德要求跟這個責任的轉嫁如果你沒有對他提供好的訓練跟支持也沒有給他這個"},{"start":321.184,"end":348.982,"text":"做明確的標準那在優秀之後他再努力他都可能沒有辦法做出一個穩定一致的判斷所以核心不是說社工努不努力而是你們要把這個制度設計好把專業的支持是到位的那這樣制度缺口就不會變成那個社工他本身的壓力來源你更不能讓孩子來承擔這個結果就我今天要強調的這一點那部長您剛剛提到的就是說那些相關的那個報告我也想要關心一下"},{"start":349.582,"end":369.022,"text":"因為我自己本身就是收養家庭嘛就是我們後來113年有修那個收出養的辦法還有相關的指引還有必要性的評估的那個form我們再提供給委員參考部長很多國家他收出養的這個管理這個法律都改了幾十版了就不斷的精進好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝謝謝陳超之委員發言"}]}},{"id":"168822","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168822","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442bd45a7553af8e60e6726ceb1fc87991608965b28c46199cc3c3fe24fbfd0fd505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:26:00 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請這個主計長請主計長待會有審計部跟那個審計長 陳審計長等一下 那個等一下 還有農業部還有農業部 胡政賜 胡政賜委員好 那個非常好 上次我們有提到那個離島公共工程的這個問題嘛我們有請主計總書跟這個工程會開會啦就是說你們要來討論說離島公共工程的這個營建成本現在規定是多三成嘛"},{"start":32.575,"end":49.342,"text":"對 以前是百分之三十嘛那我現在就請就是說讓他不要做限制就不做限制我有看到你們給我回覆說不做限制不做限制可能也要在這個相關的這個法律或辦法裡頭比如說你的這個共同性"},{"start":50.922,"end":63.288,"text":"我們會在116年度就做這樣一個規範對 要寫在裡頭因為如果你完全不做限制到時候事實上基層的公務員有時候什麼事也不敢做比較明確 比如說您是說由地方來實際訪查嘛應該怎麼做 給一個辦法寫在裡頭寫清楚對 我們會參照公共工程委員會給的意見然後把它列入我們預算編列一個標準裡面來做規範"},{"start":77.715,"end":105.669,"text":"因為原來事實上在110年度開始本來就有寫說可以有一些單價單位如果有特殊需求可以續名旅遊但這個是例外嘛但是我們的基本例外這麼多就已經變成是一個常態那我是希望在你們的辦法裡頭比較明確一點讓地方工程在這個不管要招標 不會說招標12次流標然後每次一直提高後面的款項一直增加也做不了"},{"start":106.149,"end":125.246,"text":"然後工程的延宕也除了時間成本以外事實上預算也要越來越高事實上是對政府反而不利好 這個麻煩你在今年的就116年的這個共同性費用編列基準表把它寫出來或者要做一個比較明確的函式也可以好 這個麻煩你 謝謝主席長那接著我們請這個沈記處沈記長委員好"},{"start":131.633,"end":145.469,"text":"你好 辛苦了我們這門地方有很多以前是實行戰地政務那戰地政務的時候比如說有很多隱形的地雷比如說軍方 國防部 光部像以我們現在施工環島的難路來講很多有廢棄的軍用油管"},{"start":149.654,"end":167.146,"text":"國安部在當初有做一些軍事設施啦那後來沒有用以後應該理論上是國安部的責任應該去把它拆除嘛那我們現在有在做一些相關的施工的時候遇到一些軍用的設施要嘛有的要保存要嘛有的要拆除那這些東西呢這個國安部並沒有編列專款專用都是由這個地方政府在跟這個申請這個離島建設基金來"},{"start":175.691,"end":199.305,"text":"來做這些就是比如說這個廢棄油管來講以這樣來講是來做這些拆除的工作那利用建設基金是要幫助旅島建設發展那這些東西是國防部當初它遺留下來的那這個邏輯上來講當初這些遺留下來也是國防部的東西嘛那國防部本身其實是有預算是不是請省紀部可以督促這個我們國防部可以落實這個責任的這個法理原則就是"},{"start":200.376,"end":215.318,"text":"他們留下來的東西他們應該編專款比如說幾年內你把它清掉就像以前清地雷一樣不能再有不要再有離島建設因為離島建設現在已經是比較少了那要做離島的建設發展那這個國防部並不是沒有預算嗎"},{"start":216.119,"end":241.795,"text":"他有預算嘛 他可以專款 專用編列一個幾年的 比如說五年的一個清除計畫 針對當初的佔地政府的那些設施嘛這個是讓符合國有財產法的管理機關應該維護管理廢棄的責任當初是軍方管的 基本是軍方管 所以設施也是他們埋下來的 那他們現在就應該把它清除那當然也可以委由地方代辦 但這個財源的部分是請省計出來協助要求"},{"start":242.575,"end":260.065,"text":"謝謝 依照國防部的規定 這是國防部的責任所以我們已經喊請國防部查明第二個我們審計部會做聯合審計因為牽涉國防部 也牽涉金門地方政府所以我們做聯合審計就是由我們第二廳 國防廳和金門審計處聯合把這個問題做一個徹底的了解來處理"},{"start":268.45,"end":277.156,"text":"那個我想你們單位很有力啦也很有執行力也做得很好請你們就是多多督促國防部好 我照府員的意思來做好 謝謝您好 謝謝現在請那個農業部"},{"start":280.711,"end":308.129,"text":"那個農業部特別是這個動植物有房間署來 署長也有來嘛好 署長好這個您看一下齁 這個金門齁金門是 沒關係 市長也可以啦齁市長是農業農糧署的嘛齁 那 署長是是 你也以前在農糧署嘛 對 對那署長是 也是 我們這是講防疫齁 今天要講這個防疫金門跟這個 金門是屬於台澎金嘛 中華民國一部分嘛齁那日本是外國嘛"},{"start":309.349,"end":333.584,"text":"但是你看同樣發生這個牛結節這個牛結節診這個事情日本的牛有牛結節金門的牛也有牛結節這個有安全規範世界安全規範說骨骼機是一個安全產品這沒問題你們的態度是日本的牛有牛結節可以進口不受限制但是金門的牛有牛結節就全面封殺不能進來"},{"start":335.063,"end":347.357,"text":"你們是不是對外國比對自家人還寬容啊同樣的事情金門的牛不能進來但是日本的牛可以進來台灣島就金門牛不能進來台灣啦不能倒啦"},{"start":348.922,"end":368.646,"text":"那哪一位要回答謝謝陳委員的指教那事實上因為以金門來講確實是對於這個大陸的這個太相近你是因為距離近嗎有 他是有道理是因為距離 所以因為金門的距離所以金門很多東西都要被限制嗎陳委員我再說明一下那事實上現在以目前來講"},{"start":371.767,"end":373.229,"text":"我還是要再說明一下就以最近在講的是"},{"start":389.026,"end":407.913,"text":"我先問妳 日本的牛為什麼可以進啊日本的牛節節整的牛可以進喔 不上限喔金門的牛就是不能進啊 我只是要公平待遇我今天要再說明一下 是因為在金門它的牛級的管理並沒有落實跟徹底沒有落實嗎 妳看我現在也覺得我們的那個耳邊已經虧了百分之百了"},{"start":412.635,"end":438.805,"text":"我可以進一步再跟委員做報告你們有去進門看嗎有都有去我們有注射率98 你們覺得注射率94耳標的這個釘掛已經快要百分之百了你們是要要求到百分之百是嗎報告委員確實它在牛脊的管理上有很多放牧的那個地方確實是沒有辦法完全掌握到那我請問一下喔你有沒有完全掌握到日本的牛每一隻牛都有做耳標啊"},{"start":439.685,"end":458.551,"text":"日本有沒有日本有沒有沒有去查地的有查產地絕對有派員去查產地我不要管你產地我先問你難道你的要求是百分之百的耳丁掛牌嗎對不對這是你們的要求嗎"},{"start":460.692,"end":484.223,"text":"這個是不是你們要求巨木法的要求好沒關係這就是牛如果金門牛開放要這樣子嘛對不對對這個標準我可以接受我可以接受反正你要用這個標準我不是不能接受好不好好那就接著我們看怎麼做嘛第一個外國進口牛你也必須要一樣的標準這個我是這樣要求的就是外國進口牛你不要讓我到日本去考察發現日本的牛沒有這樣做我們沒有去查場而且他輸入的"},{"start":485.483,"end":512.513,"text":"是非議點非議點他一定要符合國際規範才有可能他的牛會進來對 國際規範來講牛節節診金門的牛不能進來但是日本的牛不受限所以你告訴我你先告訴我你的標準在哪裡我們照標準做沒有關係我們會配合好 我們配合怎麼做有兩個方向而且最近口蹄疫以大陸來講又新型的口蹄疫大陸跟我什麼關係大陸有口蹄疫不是金門有口蹄疫因為兩岸太密切了太密切 那台灣也離大陸很近啊"},{"start":512.973,"end":528.686,"text":"台灣港也離中國大陸非常近啊 以全世界來講為了保護整個產業 我們一定要有所作為不是 你不要把金門從台灣切開嘛金門就台澎金馬的一部份嘛我們是就防疫的角度上可以開放一公里就要進 一百公里進不進"},{"start":530.285,"end":548.34,"text":"日本離島委員進來我沒有騙你喔我先跟你討論解決方法第一個我想這個自主溯源系統是不是第一個我們農業部來協助做自主溯源所有的金門的牧場我們都一直在協助我們地方政府也會要求地方政府協助"},{"start":549.301,"end":561.452,"text":"包括我們會協助在預算上面你們看是不是要做什麼溯源系統啊QR code啊雲端資料什麼履歷證明這個請你們編列相關預算請地方政府現在做這個我們會協助我們再來討論經費的問題好嗎怎麼經費啊你不編列經費他想要做什麼不是因為報告"},{"start":568.358,"end":580.244,"text":"你們不編列經費然後也不給他進口你們是不想讓這個產業活不是這樣子因為有很多的事在財化法以後是在地方政府你們不編列經費不可能要一條路走嗎你就不支持這個產業嘛要依照財化法的分配約則去做"},{"start":586.727,"end":611.92,"text":"妳又不幫忙 又要限制 我要說明妳願不願意幫忙嘛我們願意接受輔導 我們願意接受規範 妳們又不願意幫忙嘛我們本來就在幫忙 妳們協助預算相關這方面幫忙 那地方政府去做幫阿委員 妳也知道 我們都一直在幫妳妳是說妳們沒有錢是不是不是沒有錢 沒關係 妳看我多少錢 需要多少錢我幫妳從別的地方省下來 好不好我幫農業部從別的地方省下來來做這個吧 好不好我們到審議的時候 我看需要多少錢我看妳哪一個部會的錢 哪一個農業部拿的錢"},{"start":614.201,"end":626.889,"text":"比較浪費 我們三下也來跟這邊做嘛 好不好 這我們來協助你齁然後另外的 那日本 你告訴我日本的牛 你們每一隻牛都有耳標對不對所以你說的喔 我可以跟他們這樣說但是它出口的時候 它一定要符合我們的諮商談判的檢疫的條件金門也有茶廠金門是國內喔 金門是國內 你第一個觀念"},{"start":640.237,"end":652.903,"text":"你們每次的觀念都是說比如說禽流感的時候比如說禽流感的時候我講禽流感好了禽流感的時候金門沒有禽流感什麼屏東哪裡都有禽流感金門的雞蛋也不能來台灣你們每次都說因為金門離中國大陸比較近所以什麼都不能進來你們根本就把金門當作是"},{"start":657.605,"end":679.592,"text":"我們的防疫角度上 我們是依照風險的高低日本的牛沒有掛標就沒有風險 金門牛沒有掛標就沒有風險我們跟他們作戰體系是一致性你們跟日本作戰體系是一致性你們跟日本作戰體系 金門跟台灣作戰體系沒有一致性我講的是在國內 所有的我們的防疫體系是在 大家都是在"},{"start":680.632,"end":691.205,"text":"同一個陣線上所以為什麼日本的牛可以進來 你這樣回答為什麼金門牛一樣標準 金門牛不能進來我還是在想 雙方之上的檢疫條件對 就是因為地理性嘛那我跟你講 那這一題等於那這一題等於動物的疾病因為金門島就是奔不走嘛"},{"start":696.671,"end":699.472,"text":"我們來協助好嗎協助看這個層面其實不一定只有經費啦有些也是在技術上技術上我們可以協助我們一定都幫忙好不好"}]}},{"id":"168821","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168821","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442262560f035656d026e07bf52eec0dd4908965b28c46199cc6c52fa203661293f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:22:52 - 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這個我也是覺得很汗顏啦因為我也來自這一家醫院那麼我們的教育啦那特別是在這個性別教育上我們確實需要在強化那麼近期這個新任的余院長他也非常的積極的認識那麼也推出了這個系列的這個改革的措施那我想這個應該有所改善"},{"start":107.458,"end":123.885,"text":"那很高興部長同意就是說教育的部分要強化然後台大醫院的新院長有這個認知那我現在想問的是台大醫院上面就是衛福部嘛對不對那衛福部該做的事情到底有沒有做好啊"},{"start":124.645,"end":145.268,"text":"那回來看就是剛剛相關的醫師就是因為媒體的關注那有得到相關的懲戒那我們看一下醫師法第25條一副懲戒第二條一定要判刑確定那可是大家知道在台灣要判刑確定要很多年"},{"start":146.128,"end":164.959,"text":"像剛剛那麼嚴重的事情你應該會認同只要揭露之後他不用等到判刑確定要暫時就不能夠執業吧最近的案子我們都是先處理就是說按照譬如說他是按照性供法或者是性騷法等等的"},{"start":165.419,"end":186.35,"text":"那麼都會先暫停他的臨床業務都會要求衛生局去先暫停在調查期間因為他還是需要調查啦不是馬上因為剛剛提到判刑是很久的但是我們還是有行政調查所以就會要求這個衛生局去做行政調查在調查的期間呢先暫停他的臨床業務"},{"start":187.571,"end":210.695,"text":"那因為時間有限我是要跟部長講這個在我們教育體系我是來自教育文化委員會我們已經現在處理到修教師法因為他一旦有權勢關係的教師進入調查的時候為了保障學生就必須暫時不能教那當然後來調查結果確定之後那就教師公會主張說要緩緩他應有的薪資這當然是的還有名譽對不對"},{"start":215.856,"end":242.105,"text":"那我們已經處理到這麼細緻了可是呢你看這個法條今天我們看到的很多的案子其實在這個過程中就是所謂的懲戒機構就是地方政府的這些委員會完全不知情那因為時間的緣故我要來跟您講以這個是我辦公室畫出來的醫師法的流程你會看到就是這裡面雖然好像都有講啟動懲戒"},{"start":244.246,"end":269.762,"text":"可是如何启动惩戒是谁发起处理的时效惩戒标准完全没有在医师法中有详细的规范那我今天是我第三次针对医师惩戒机制质询那很遗憾前面两次都不是您前面我记得有邱部长然后有次长那今天是第三次我都是针对医师惩戒机制哎"},{"start":270.302,"end":274.126,"text":"可是衛福部回給我的是什麼這是衛福部回給我的文他跟我講有資訊公開"},{"start":276.451,"end":301.899,"text":"部長 這個我覺得這一個事情要質詢到三次而且非常的遺憾的是 離我去年5月21號第一次質詢都快一年了欸 您剛剛講認同的東西那惠福部是為什麼都沒有在聽我質詢嗎明明部長跟次長都口口聲聲答應的是我還是拿到一個雞同鴨講的公文"},{"start":302.299,"end":318.296,"text":"那讓我檢討是不是我質詢不夠兇所以沒有得到合理的對待不曉得應該不是吧不是不是不是這個我會來檢討好看看那因為不是您所以我今天就尊重您會處理好那我要講的事情是"},{"start":320.999,"end":345.37,"text":"這個資訊專區你們處理了可是我剛剛講的完全沒有處理這件事情監察院在調查了在我質詢後今年1月監察院一樣講你們一失準確法制欠缺跨機關通報及橫向聯繫所以地方衛生主管機關無從支息也未能及時開啟甚至要等到媒體報導那今天台大醫院有媒體報導然後最近就是"},{"start":346.13,"end":360.615,"text":"還有這個今年二月又發生一個很嚴重在新北而且是因為台南出事了然後在講兒少影像才發現裡面有婦產科醫師在網路上已經一直在分享就是"},{"start":361.235,"end":378.554,"text":"性私密影像兒少性私密影像是他從業來的長達9年喔那所以我想這是上新聞的您有看過這篇BBC的報導吧已經上BBC了我的婦產科醫生是性罪犯台灣醫師懲戒制度為何引發質疑您有沒有看到這個今年4月17號的報導"},{"start":380.296,"end":404.205,"text":"那個部長有看嗎?這個我沒看到那請您去看一下 因為裡面也有訪問您那您有談到針對剛剛那個新北的個案您非常的明快要求地方衛生局一個月內調查然後不需要等待司法判決那我想請您回去看這篇報導他有引用您的話 我講了很多制度的建議我之前質詢都講過"},{"start":405.946,"end":430.576,"text":"所以不能只是個案那您個案名塊很好這是上新聞的是不是制度真的好好修不管是懲戒辦法或者是醫師法好不好不要讓大家覺得衛福部是站在醫師尤其是男醫師的角度在看事情可以答應我嗎因為主席已經站起來了對 可是要注意時間好 沒問題我一定來看這一篇報導那多久之內可以給我一個報告不會再是雞同鴨講的報告"},{"start":432.342,"end":436.308,"text":"一個月內 我們會...一個月內 好 謝謝部長好 謝謝好 謝謝范委員的發言接下來請楊瓊英委員發言"}]}},{"id":"168818","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168818","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442e521a68e3ba92a356e07bf52eec0dd4908965b28c46199cc12eae036270d068b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"12:04:51 - 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我們請部長有氣質的部長歡迎 您好部長好 部長在這個4月份 4月2號是社工日我們彰化這邊也有舉辦這個社工的表揚大會那在會場上面 其實社工也表達他們的工作其實這個面對的第一線"},{"start":27.401,"end":42.382,"text":"他們很多都是這個協助一些弱勢族群那在這個凱凱案的這個審判一審宣判就是說負責個案訪視的這個社工一過失致死判處有期徒刑兩年"},{"start":43.423,"end":59.555,"text":"那這個判刑之後其實很多社工會覺得他們在這個社會安全網的其中一個他們要面對第一線那如果是這樣子的話其實他們承受的非常大的壓力我想請教部長就是說"},{"start":62.697,"end":84.609,"text":"這個這個宣判之後其實未來有可能社工會有一個出走潮其實社工的工作壓力面對的壓力非常大再來就是說他其實薪資也不高啦那面對這樣的一個狀況部長你怎麼樣來這個止血就是說這個宣判下去其實社工他們"},{"start":85.709,"end":107.098,"text":"私底下也會講啦就是說這個工作確實高壓然後薪資也不是那麼好所以他們出走之後那未來這些弱勢族群或者是社會安全網的其中一員那你要怎麼樣來補足或者是說怎麼樣讓社工的工作環境能夠好一點"},{"start":108.623,"end":126.05,"text":"跟委員說明當然在這個事件發生我們是覺得非常的遺憾那我們也一再的表達我們會做社工的後盾所以在這個判決下來之後那麼大家比較有爭議的這個保證人地位這件事情"},{"start":126.57,"end":153.44,"text":"那麼我們也在明天下午會邀請法界大家來討論討論出一個方式那麼我們來持續的跟這個法界溝通那第二個呢那還是要回到這個如果是以這個案子來講他是在收租養的過程當中那麼就由社工去扛責了那我們在這個事件之後也改變了那麼一定在收租養的過程當中地方政府要扮演一定的角色不要讓社工獨自面對"},{"start":154.6,"end":173.054,"text":"那第三個當然對於社工的人力的補充還有這個薪資津貼那麼這些我們也會持續的來改善那包含我們在社安法2.0裡面那麼也預計在持續的去螺絲更多的社工的人員"},{"start":173.875,"end":188.247,"text":"那當然也要搭配這個資訊系統的整合那麼包含一些AI的協助讓他的工作負荷也能夠得到一些緩解所以這些我們都在努力的在做"},{"start":189.028,"end":193.511,"text":"其實社工這個工作需要有很大的勇氣跟熱情其實我們看到就是說彰化這邊的接受表揚的這些社工其實他們在這個社工的這個工作有的就是時間都已經很長那就是有那個熱情才有辦法做這麼久"},{"start":207.742,"end":224.936,"text":"所以我覺得說衛福部應該是要成為社工的一個最好的一個後盾那個未來怎麼樣讓他們的工作這個環境能夠更好我覺得應該是衛福部這邊應該要做的其實社工的工作很多時候跟醫護人員差不多"},{"start":225.696,"end":252.283,"text":"他面對的這個個案的狀況其實有時候差異很大然後也有很多的不預期性那甚至有時候還有急迫性要處理像保護性社工經常是晚上就可能也要臨時出來處理所以他的這個工作高壓然後風險也不低所以我覺得應該要有不同的思維那我們絕對是做社工的後退"},{"start":253.844,"end":271.217,"text":"其實我們看到這個就是說社工跟保母那社工跟保母之間其實也不是說這個監督或者是被監督的這樣一個關係其實應該是一個這個協助跟合作的一個關係所以其實我看到"},{"start":273.358,"end":289.947,"text":"這個社工被判刑其實我覺得說一個社工他如果說一個月才去訪視一次那如果保姆有意要隱瞞的話其實社工其實也很難去看出來所以剛剛部長有特別提到可能就是有一些協助可能要有一些"},{"start":290.968,"end":318.56,"text":"其他的一個協助對社工來講可能我是覺得說還要有額外的其他的一個協助才會讓這個社工才不會因為未來的其他的事件然後造成社工一個很大的一個負擔對就是當然我們盡量讓這個制度體系做得更好來接觸每一個孩子但是對於執行者這個社工而言那麼如果結果"},{"start":319.9,"end":336.453,"text":"不如預期那我們也需要回頭來看看這個注意義務啦並不是說不好就絕對是有過失還是要回頭來看看他的注意義務以及他的專業材料這個其實跟我們這個醫事人員的這些專業其實是很類似的"},{"start":339.555,"end":363.888,"text":"當然就是說有一些可能需要去檢討的部分那需要檢討需要改進那當然就是剛剛講的可能縣市政府這邊也許還有其他的督導那是不是也要給其他在第一線的人可能要如果說有一些疏忽可能在第一線在座其實他也許沒有發現那後面的督導可能也要給他一些協助"},{"start":365.889,"end":383.725,"text":"這個是跟起始理論一樣常常都是很多的環節上出了問題才會看到最後這個結果所以我們來做一些制度或系統上的改善那部長剛剛也有委員特別問到就是說社工昨天有到行政院遞交陳情書"},{"start":384.966,"end":400.145,"text":"那像這樣子的話其中有一部分就是說這個訴求社工非社安網執行者不是制度漏接唯一承擔者那像這樣子的話就是說我們部長對於社工的這個訴求你的回應是怎樣"},{"start":400.806,"end":426.245,"text":"對 就跟我剛剛所提到的這個就是像那個乳酪理論一樣啦一個看到最後的這個結果當然很不幸可是中間是有很多環節上沒有接住所以我們才會在這個事件之後呢做了一些改善改變包含這個資訊的串流啦那麼包含這個制度上這個地方政府應該扮演的角色要把它進來"},{"start":427.626,"end":455.225,"text":"那這些都是其實都是從這個事件之後我們做的一些改善我們就一件一件的來做這樣的我是覺得說針對這個制度可能有時候也是要做一個通盤的檢討是的不好的部分當然就是要去做一些改善那剛剛部長也有特別提到就是說社工的這個部分整個這個工作的這個環境然後職業的環境職業的這個安全的部分其實我們也要一併去考慮"},{"start":457.706,"end":471.07,"text":"其實我會覺得說社工的這個工作真的確實因為他們第一線面對的可能都是我們社會當中的一些比較弱勢的族群那有時候他們在訪視的時候"},{"start":473.592,"end":498.05,"text":"這些族群他們訪視的時候可能又會把一些這個壓力或者是他訴說的一個狀況就是社工了解之後其實社工的壓力也是很大因為他聽到可能有一些就是負面的負面的情緒所以社工其實他的壓力也非常的大那我也希望就是說這個我們部裡面針對社工的這個職業安全或者是"},{"start":500.171,"end":512.726,"text":"也許社工他搞不好自己也需要心理諮商我覺得其實我會碰到很多譬如說我們家福的一些社工其實他們到第一線去訪視之後"},{"start":515.269,"end":534.269,"text":"社工他們會講說這個家庭的狀況那有時候如果社工本身心理狀況不是那麼堅強的話其實他的情緒也是會有一些起伏所以我們也希望一方面就是讓社工有一個安全的這個職業環境那另外就是說社工的心理"},{"start":534.95,"end":562.043,"text":"心理狀況其實我覺得我們也要去注意啦那讓更多人願意投入社工的這個工作要不然其實我覺得這個判刑出來之後其實很多人會覺得說那我就去隨便找一個工作他的這個工作環境也許還比社工好那薪水也許也會比社工還高所以我覺得這方面也是我們這個部裡面未來要去注意的"},{"start":562.903,"end":587.768,"text":"我們來強化那個對社工的那個心理支持的部分我們來強化好那這個工作是這個整個工作環境是最重要的啦如果說社工有這個熱情有這個熱心有這個熱情投入那如果整個環境對他是不利的話其實我覺得那個未來社工的出走潮應該是會一波接著一波好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":590.228,"end":592.135,"text":"好 謝謝我們黃秀芳委員發言"}]}},{"id":"168817","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168817","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be54425050eff414d6280d6e07bf52eec0dd4908965b28c46199cc12eae036270d068b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:58:59 - 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謝謝主席 有請部長有請石部長郭委員好部長早安我想在進入這個社會安全網的這個主題之前我先再來問一下毛小孩的家庭 毛小孩的氏族 毛小孩的氏族再來 7月1號原本要上路的這個動物這個用藥的一個新制確定已經先註銷了"},{"start":23.817,"end":48.733,"text":"但是現在其實一線的獸醫師其實我們又陸陸續續又接到他們其實在用藥的部分藥廠已經開始可以決定他們要不要自行提供藥物也就是說他們即將有一些藥物是有可能會被供應鏈給斷鏈了那這也是又再次的引起大家的一個恐慌那我想這個部長請教兩件事情第一就是食藥署"},{"start":49.193,"end":64.645,"text":"能不能夠明確的表態人用的藥品依法可以穩定供應給受醫師使用避免這個藥廠因為有一些疑慮而中斷而限縮這是第一個問題我們的這個食藥署是不是可以明確的表態"},{"start":65.305,"end":68.667,"text":"人用的部分能不能夠穩定提供給獸醫師"},{"start":95.425,"end":105.37,"text":"整個程序完畢之後是兩到三週請問我的毛孩子在急診台上可以等嗎我兩天可能都等不下去了我要等兩到三週不要再跟我講說緊急用藥平台可以來申請"},{"start":111.052,"end":126.165,"text":"請我們的食藥署是不是可以答應請衛福部長可不可以承諾我們把這個門給打開不然其實我們空有所謂的動物用藥的這樣子的一個藥證但是目前為止如果是"},{"start":127.546,"end":144.577,"text":"這個市場比較小嘛上次我有提過嘛動物用藥的市場是比較小的所以在藥商限縮的狀況之下有一些是可以從人用的這個部分我又要卡進來一個這樣子奇怪的一個角色請問我的寵物要怎麼等醫療的條件跟時間怎麼辦"},{"start":146.938,"end":164.85,"text":"跟委員說明當然動物用藥是由農業部管人藥的部分我們已經重申了就是已經可以直接由藥商來供應給獸醫師使用我們已經那個函都發出去但是現在我們再看一下下一頁這個是昨天我們才收到的"},{"start":165.45,"end":188.558,"text":"已經有獸醫師他們看到藥商的回應有幾個品項已經從人用的替代藥品拿掉了也就是說這些回歸到所謂的動物用藥的部分但我剛剛講了動物用藥因為市場小所以有可能會被限縮用不到的時候我就需要人藥來支援但是人藥的支援現在卡在說那我們就回到所謂的"},{"start":189.278,"end":196.781,"text":"用緊急用藥的平台來做申請申請下來兩到三個禮拜請問這個空窗期誰要來負責跟委員說明這個人藥也是一樣的管理邏輯就是說如果你有藥證的那我們就不會專案進口那這個動物用藥也是一樣如果動物用藥有的除非他缺貨我們人藥才給不然就沒有人要去申請動物用藥"},{"start":216.329,"end":232.31,"text":"那我再請教一下這個部長我們可不可以明確的表態人用的藥品可以穩定供應給受益師來做使用因為這些他寫的這些品項過去這些書藝其實是正常他可以使用的但是因為現在我們的法規不夠明確"},{"start":234.773,"end":251.44,"text":"所以現在變成他們也會限縮啊我有可能會拿不到藥啊那請問我的醫療一限我該怎麼處理這樣子的一個緊急狀況好跟委員說明這個點滴的部分我們同仁已經去了解了以動物用藥的這個點滴的業者他說他可以穩定供藥沒有問題確定對好所以這個緊急的公告我們是"},{"start":255.882,"end":268.598,"text":"包含這個台育寄生他們都現在已經確定可以公告他都是可以公要的好那這個部分我們所有的這個韓式的部分是不是今天就可以提供出來韓式已經發了已經發了嗎已經發了4月17號我們就發了但是我要請教一下部長"},{"start":273.203,"end":289.229,"text":"以後這樣子的問題三天兩頭就會發生一次三天兩頭就會發生一次我們要不要直接用一個方法就可以解決負面表列用負面表列的方式是不是就可以解決這種根本的問題不然我收到的陳情你們收到的陳情還有我們這邊要問你們幫忙我們一線的動物醫師來做轉達我相信會反不勝反負面表列要不要考慮這個都可以來討論"},{"start":303.035,"end":322.524,"text":"那但是負面表列的必須要肯慎到的就是說已經有動物藥的部分那基本上人要就不要去後來的話以後都完全沒有動物藥了今天時間非常的有限下午兩點我會邀集很多的動物醫師獸醫師一線的獸醫師他們現在面臨的處境我會在"},{"start":326.926,"end":345.155,"text":"我們的這個經濟委員會現在的這個紅樓的一樓我們會開一個座談會我歡迎衛福部歡迎食藥署可以到場聆聽現場的困境可以嗎好好不好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝郭玉晴委員發言接下來請黃秀芳委員發言"}]}},{"id":"168816","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168816","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442345a11bff8980f216726ceb1fc87991608965b28c46199ccd6989c2027b9690b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"12:00:50 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對不對好 問題就來了"},{"start":110.726,"end":132.192,"text":"小朋友兩三歲被餵食的時候他怎麼會知不知道馬鈴薯上面有沒有發芽大人應該都會看到那大人天下無不是的父母如果大人爸爸媽媽自己"},{"start":133.297,"end":157.447,"text":"帶的話他一定不會拿有發芽的馬鈴薯給他吃啊問題來了我們打開報紙每次看到一些都是虐童案哇你那個保姆帶的時候小朋友如果是每個小朋友都會哭哭鬧鬧的正常嘛你遇到那個黑心的保姆"},{"start":159.056,"end":184.76,"text":"他就看他小孩子在那邊哭哭鬧鬧他就換了一招不打不罵他就一直餵他吃有毒的餵他吃這個發芽的馬鈴薯這鮮食用的馬鈴薯跟加工用是不一樣的報告委員就是說在這種屬於加工用的應該跟你剛剛講的那些是鮮食用的應該不太一樣啦市長有的都你在說啦"},{"start":188.416,"end":213.953,"text":"小朋友兩歲三歲四歲他怎麼會知道說應該是加工應該不加工黑心的保母一塞過來小朋友傻傻的來的嘴巴就張口啊就這樣吃吃吃就吃了半天肚子裡面全都是發芽的馬鈴薯吃了怎麼辦"},{"start":215.694,"end":235.832,"text":"因為沒有這樣的,這是一個假設的議題啦那因為市面上事實上這個我們都把關的非常好跟農業部這邊其實是雙重把關這樣事情應該不會發生所以你要讓國人都相信你是好那哪一天如果有剛剛講的情況出現的話你要怎麼處理"},{"start":238.902,"end":257.318,"text":"你說不會嘛這一定是不會啦那你用什麼方式來保證絕對不會跟委員報告就是說在只要在海關的時候農業部有發現有發芽的這個我們都就是對自己在檢驗200ppm就會把它全部退後你講別的就算你講到海關來我講海關的事給你聽"},{"start":265.165,"end":288.509,"text":"海關喔叫做關務署黃署長有你做得很辛苦喔海關的編制人員現在多少報告委員大概4200個以前多少人曾經有到6、7千人以前7千人現在4千多人現在海關啊它光是查緝毒品查緝"},{"start":292.887,"end":311.794,"text":"其他的一些什麼電子煙啊等等的就忙不過來啦你那搞死所有海關人員啊剛剛莊市長說每一批都要檢查每一顆馬鈴薯都要檢查不能有渙水摸魚"},{"start":314.901,"end":342.232,"text":"所以每個都要查嗎署長你有辦法每一棵馬鈴薯都查嗎怎麼查你說給大家聽報告委員這個部分我們海關還有房間署還有這個衛福部這邊都有分工啦那海關是做這個查緝走私跟透漏關稅這是我們的查緝重點那食品安全的部分檢疫的部分那都是有房間署跟這個食藥署這邊大家分工來處理"},{"start":343.635,"end":368.287,"text":"所以馬鈴薯一顆一顆檢查,是誰來檢查?房間署,那換房間署剛剛都聽了,他現在四千多個編制,人員已經不足了我們現在海關回來也很辛苦,以前還沒有什麼非洲豬瘟現在有,我看所有的工作人員是有那個檢查"},{"start":370.808,"end":399.881,"text":"以前是沒有檢查的現在國外回來都是要排隊檢查有沒有農產品有沒有帶肉品防止非洲豬瘟已經整死了這一些第一線的關務署的同仁了今天要再多一個馬鈴薯好 那你剛剛講的是叫做檢疫署是不是房檢署檢疫署嗎房檢署來 房檢署"},{"start":401.781,"end":427.474,"text":"房間署是杜署長杜署長請問你你有沒有吃過馬鈴薯有我還喜歡吃我很喜歡吃所以我一聽到我就一定要問清楚不然你在台灣有很多的炸薯條或者是Hashbrown就是薯餅"},{"start":429.451,"end":436.414,"text":"每次吃 我吃我怎麼知道到底有沒有問題所以我們會以那個把關現在由你來檢查你這個房檢署有多少員工"},{"start":441.888,"end":464.577,"text":"房間署大概就五百多個人多少五百多個人五百多個人那如果扣除一些休假請假的情況並假平常在工作崁位上有幾個人大大委員我還分為動物跟植物要再切為一半那你所以馬鈴薯是植物嘛你動物扣掉那剩多少人"},{"start":465.077,"end":488.823,"text":"那但是報告委員現在這個的任務上我們大概已經在做已經在做準備所以因為它是從高雄分署進來所以我們現在已經在制定整個流程跟檢驗那我們會跟食藥署在第一關CIQS的時候就嚴格執行這個所以這個馬鈴薯變成是一個我們防禦的大敵這樣子"},{"start":495.652,"end":519.612,"text":"馬林署以後只從高雄關進來?大部分都是從高雄關入關從基隆不行嗎?當然可以啊,但我們的標準是一致的我們的標準一定是一致的就依照這個標準去做執行那也會執行訓練,沒有問題你講給別人聽聽還可以啦那一天我才去基隆關我們去考察你有沒有去過?"},{"start":520.342,"end":527.146,"text":"有 基隆關最近大概就是觀光貨輪不是貨輪等一下署長再講給你聽我們去看所有的現在的電子商務"},{"start":535.066,"end":562.162,"text":"快遞的郵件你知道一天有多少量快遞郵件是公務署為主政那動作的檢疫是我們來搭配好那請問那個杜署長快遞進來的東西如果裡面有假有一包一包的那個薯餅是只要炸薯條講起來薯條三兄弟啦"},{"start":563.154,"end":574.5,"text":"如果從那邊進來那你也查不到啊報告立委我們的是殷司檢疫項目那炸薯條它不是殷司檢疫項目"},{"start":576.42,"end":580.605,"text":"我們所有的都是檢疫的項目以現在進來來講其實生鮮一年大概2.7噸那主要是涉及病蟲害根帶土那其他一年進口的15噸它包括有冷凍進來有調製進來那這些有的是做馬鈴薯泥馬鈴薯澱粉甚至於做其他的用途"},{"start":598.925,"end":611.464,"text":"對那這個是整個跟關稅跟食品比較有相關那我們只就病蟲害的問題你的意思就是說你們一共有一百多個人然後"},{"start":613.868,"end":641.035,"text":"要我們國人來相信你100個多人可以把這個防護做得滴水不漏不會有發芽的馬鈴薯進來來干擾民眾的健康問題報告委員這是我們的職責我們一定要全力以赴另外跟您報告非洲豬瘟的時候那個剛剛講的手檢區也是我們負責的所以我們也都是這樣子在執行"},{"start":641.875,"end":661.002,"text":"你講得很辛苦啊你也講得很認真可是你要叫國人怎麼樣相信那成堆成山的馬鈴薯然後有你們一百多人在把關然後不會出問題報告委員剛剛我們這個次長也有講以去年114年為例那它的不合格率只有0.6也就是說"},{"start":668.605,"end":692.88,"text":"合格的部分大概都可以通關但不合格的部分我們就會專櫃 就是專批然後送達指定的地點那會提改善計畫那在嚴格的要求之下那這個區域是會等同或比照市區的監督之下足櫃 足批 足科來做篩檢我們的原則就是這樣足科啊"},{"start":696.554,"end":716.372,"text":"對,在加工廠的時候我們的原則就是這樣竹科的意思就是說不是新竹那個竹科不是不是不是竹科的你的意思是說一顆一顆要檢查一下是,是,我們覺得監督業者來做這件事情你講的話說得很漂亮啊不是,這個做是一定要做的"},{"start":717.229,"end":745.536,"text":"你一顆一顆很難想像啊你在打幾個人 成千上萬顆報告 報告委員他的申請是一批一批進來的那一批一批進來 以我們現在在於邊境的檢驗其實也是如此整個的他的沙網頓帶的時候也是這樣子來檢疫的你們有沒有檢討過是到底是誰是那個trouble maker"},{"start":746.94,"end":773.642,"text":"以前就沒有這個事情為什麼現在如臨大敵然後把一顆馬鈴薯變成是大家覺得是健康危害的一個首惡然後我剛舉那個例子你講得很認真哪一天有一個小朋友被虐童結果智商變差或者身體出了狀況原因就是為他吃有毒的馬鈴薯"},{"start":774.943,"end":792.087,"text":"報告委員我想就有兩個層次第一個美方進來的時候就要把關三強到我們這裡也是一樣會嚴格把關我們一定不會讓有不合格的流入到市場跟加工廠"}]}},{"id":"168829","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168829","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442d228987cdd1c58e16726ceb1fc879916833ab2e8cb6e77832920bcfc32d3c7235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"12:58:24 - 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負面表列是什麼"},{"start":170.211,"end":184.91,"text":"負面表列我只要匡列不管是食藥署還有獸醫師他們有共同的共識我把不能用的先匡進來剩下的讓他們可以回歸到他們可以有用藥的自主權可以有嫖妓權這個部分的負面表列有這麼難嗎"},{"start":186.352,"end":192.595,"text":"報告委員這涉及到人用藥的部分到底它的母數有多大我們不知道然後開始回到人用藥了一萬多張的藥證所以這個的母數太大而且主要是在人用藥這一點我想他們專業的理解如果大家都有這樣子的一個本位主義的考量不是還是要尊重藥師人藥就是衛福部嘛那動物用藥就是我們農業部嘛是不是這樣兩邊是這樣嘛中間七十均"},{"start":216.207,"end":242.663,"text":"中間這一群的空莊級請問到底誰要來負責下午我們來座談會好好的聽一聽可以嗎可以請聽一線的聲音嗎當然這種事情三天兩頭就會出現我的辦公室已經疲於奔命了整個立法院大概只有我在追這件事情咩但問題是我們有三百四十萬隻的寵物我有兩百多萬的飼主的一個家庭我擔心的還有一線生育師他們沒有用藥自主"},{"start":243.743,"end":256.131,"text":"藥師公會他們還要再加進來一個莫名其妙的一個角色我們到底這件事情可以撐多久啊是的 謝謝謝謝委員真的打從心裡真的謝謝委員的關注跟協助那現在731項已經到731項那731項公告為就整個轉為動保用藥所以大概這個項目是"},{"start":265.437,"end":290.602,"text":"動保用藥但是因為我們大家都知道動保用藥我們的這個族群是比較小的所以藥廠開始有考量啦過去這動保的用藥我有的是可以用人藥來做代替嘛比方說輸液就是嘛但現在因為這個限制下去了我人藥變成受益是它不能取用人藥所以我就說負面表列才能夠根本解決這樣的問題我們一起來研議好不好各方的意見可以嗎"},{"start":291.502,"end":291.983,"text":"好不好 下午兩點就在樓下我們一起來討論 好嗎好 謝謝主席 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事實,這才是需要大力去裁罰的事情啊,對不對?是,是同樣食安問題怎麼會有兩種標準呢?實在非常奇怪那我們請衛福部先回去一下,財政部也先回去一下好,謝謝各位單位先回去,我請主記長主記長"},{"start":136.738,"end":160.228,"text":"總預算終於開始審了,這在破天荒喔最快你覺得刪讀的時候大約什麼時候?上一次的紀錄是六月十五刪讀啦隔一年啦,你覺得判斷一下這我希望是盡快能夠盡快大約嘛,你心裡頭要一個譜嘛如果初估這樣應該至少是要在六月下旬啦大約多少?六月中下旬吧"},{"start":160.956,"end":175.926,"text":"就可以三讀審完了真的喔我們希望如此真的假喔那六月中下旬是妳現在的期待啦是啦那希望啦但是如果是這樣子的話牽扯到一個問題啊執行率的部分怎麼辦有沒有掌握"},{"start":176.927,"end":193.385,"text":"會不會你到時候執行率又出問題那明年的這個立法機關立法院又說執行率不加給你砍預算會不會這種狀況因為目前的確會有這樣一個狀況就是說他有一些該花包的他可能是因為他經費沒有結續所以他花包的金額沒有達到他預定的一個額度"},{"start":194.286,"end":213.331,"text":"那現在如果說要趕的部分,這個部分就是說要盡量去追趕一下執行力很有壓力啊可是如果過度出動執行時間有限的情況底下品質可能就會有憂慮啊這個部分也是我們盡量要跟各單位來請他們來講你還要跟審計部講一下"},{"start":213.971,"end":231.828,"text":"到時候這樣寫的時候不要一直怪行政部門要寫說因為立法院不審預算引擎到行政院 審計部敢不敢這樣寫審計長是因為立法院的關係他敢 他點頭了你就不用上來了好 接下來再算了說那如果是六月的話那我問你啊"},{"start":232.569,"end":259.71,"text":"老榮津貼國寶年金八大社福津貼來得及什麼時候送追加預算民眾都非常期待這三筆預算兩筆追溯到1月1號另外是7月1號總共的金額高達355億民眾充滿期待如果按照這種方式那我就再請教一下主計長您預估的這個時程大概什麼時候"},{"start":261.459,"end":283.937,"text":"我們應該是 因為現在我們已經開始籌編116年度的一個預算那是明年的事情 我現在問你追加預算的部分但是追加預算也大概是跟他差不多一個期間 因為為什麼大概幾月 能不能說個時間點大概八月底八月才能送八月送的話 要等到通過的話 民眾是不是都要等很久大概等到什麼時候"},{"start":285.682,"end":312.353,"text":"反正本會本院非常的勤勞認真啦 研會啦會一直研下去啦所以我們還是希望說這一次預算的一個115年預算審查能夠跨年預算因為最佳預算它不是那麼快的一個能夠通過對我知道年代關係嘛有一定物價的一個相關的措施而且這還是很順利喔你六月的時候中旬通過三讀喔年度預算喔接下來你才會"},{"start":313.453,"end":335.223,"text":"通過這個追加預算喔這前面快後面還會跟著快喔但是我也跟委員報告勞農年金和國保年金這些的相關的條例他還沒有過啦喔還沒有過喔對對對你看這樣拖下去就更久了不是嗎相關的條例還沒有過就拖下去更久而且你後面還有軍公教加薪會不會加薪啊"},{"start":337.248,"end":341.093,"text":"這個人種的那邊它是有這樣的規劃那這個捧份怎麼辦 也是用追加預算那重點是這個追加預算會不會一併處理"},{"start":348.587,"end":372.654,"text":"一併會處理一併處理嘛如果軍工要加薪的話就跟前面的這個津貼年金一併處理嘛那穩定物價的那個部分呢一千三百億怎麼辦是這個部分呢就是要第一個當然他多少是要看戰爭的一個期限啦那第二個還要看說補貼的一個項目的期間到底是多少所以必須要其實做一個台式可是現在無限期休戰啊對啊"},{"start":375.515,"end":400.741,"text":"所以現在就是說我們要看行政院整個財市是怎麼財市所以不一定會編?這1300億不一定會編?因為目前就已經有中油的部分包括台電都有一些支出其實是應該要做一些的填補如果有辦追加預算是應該要一次辦或者是說要辦特別預算這必須要看行政院的財市啦"},{"start":401.041,"end":418.221,"text":"所以說這個要怎麼收處理 對一般就是說我們希望能夠在八月底也就是說三大福利 軍公教加薪一併在八月底盡可能把它提出來 還有穩定物價因為軍公教加薪比較不確認 軍公教加薪這個部分是不是提出來"},{"start":419.082,"end":446.602,"text":"要看人總這邊我這邊比較沒有辦法幫你但是人總已經在朝向這個方向了我本席再就教你一個問題除了這個預算之外中央發債的部分目前只有4億這個以行公債的部分也就是說我們整個審計部之前提到財政部在推動非營業基金的發行永續發展債券的時候兩年多一件都沒有辦"},{"start":447.903,"end":474.114,"text":"終於有一件要辦了結果發現多少四億然後我們去看一下台北市、桃園、高雄合計起來多少兩百八十四億那就很奇怪了現在到底是中央比較缺錢還是地方比較缺錢明明財發法過了之後我們就少了四千多億我們完全不緊張耶主席長這是怎麼一回事為什麼整計部這個提出的報告中央不理不睬是不是吃大鍋飯習慣了"},{"start":476.345,"end":504.178,"text":"大家想說預算編一編就好不用另外去籌組財源不用去找銀行你想一想喔你這個4億一放出來馬上啊就被搶空了為什麼因為我們公債的發行量很低嘛所以你永續發展基金的這個發行很多銀行 很多金融機關或者是郵政儲軍馬上會來搶你應該透過這部分來彌補現在你的預算不足這個不是最好的時機嗎 處長是不是"},{"start":505.626,"end":517.035,"text":"是,但是這個部分比較偏財政,是不是請財政部好,財政部來,請財政部等一下等一下,還有你還有你,等一下不好意思,我一直以為是你,誤會你來,那個軟刺,來說明一下,為什麼"},{"start":521.965,"end":538.504,"text":"跟委員報告現在目前中央中央跟地方都一直在推中央目前就只有一筆是4億因為有一筆是高雄的航空站以前出餐的部分大家也做得心不甘情不願"},{"start":540.145,"end":553.61,"text":"現在這個永續發展基金的這個債券其實發展其實更容易因為很多人搶手永續發展債券基本上你們要用一個什麼樣的誘因跟機制來要求中央相關單位來發行"},{"start":555.39,"end":572.538,"text":"我們現在是這樣,先請就是說除了中央跟金管會還有櫃買中心合作來尋找案例之外既然你上了台,剛剛人家主計長就說你,你是主政單位您一個月之內,你要提一個什麼辦法來鼓勵中央相關部會來發行這個永續發展債券,來籌措這個資源"},{"start":578.261,"end":599.335,"text":"以面對現階段預算不足的壓力好不好是 我完全了解用一個月的時間好不好我們信息來推對 你們主政就要去推嘛我們已經在推了好不好 已經在推還不夠嘛你如何刺激他們給他們業績壓力KPI怎麼樣的方法讓他們能夠提早提出來好不好我給你一個月的時間來刺謝謝委員長謝謝最後一個部分那個主席長還有"},{"start":604.338,"end":627.617,"text":"你看我們要求地方政府有個災害準備金的部分要總預算1%一般而言這個災害準備金本席為什麼這麼care在北部相對比較少動用到災害準備金可是在中南部的部分1%往往都不足往往不足的時候都會跟中央來爭取可是中央呢要求地方1%可是中央變多少"},{"start":628.317,"end":631.959,"text":"專政府編0.16照說至少要編303.5億缺口足足差了250億"},{"start":640.257,"end":668.533,"text":"欸 那個 主席長這個災害準備金要多編一點不是說我們要怎麼樣這反倒是備而不用嘛你都要求地方一person為什麼中央不能多一點呢不然我們還要跑去民間募款大家搶食中央的這一步稀少的預算而不夠的情況底下卻責任呢下放到給其他人包括民意代表給一些民間團體這樣不對嘛你這更應該多編一點啦主席長你的看法怎麼樣能不能說明一下"},{"start":669.178,"end":682.429,"text":"我們已經逐年在增加了啦速度不夠啦 我知道啦 之前21現在50億啦那以前它只有對地方有規範1%對中央是沒有規範對我知道 還會微乎其微嘛現在中央責任越來越大了之前中央不都下去"},{"start":686.413,"end":698.827,"text":"開指揮手嗎對啊你們現在責任越來越大現在已經全國不分區的災難所有的地方中央政府跟地方政府都要下去嘛好不好好 謝謝郭委員朝向兩邊的方式來處理好不好雖然我們是在砍預算的可是這一條不能審啦謝謝好 謝謝郭國榮委員的舉行接下來是"}]}},{"id":"168738","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168738","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1ba3c9959e6d90080f38d440c98c629e74f2050ed7b2b649bb5955a0c0d9861e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:51:16 - 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我們有請部長有請馮部長周委員好"},{"start":14.381,"end":39.389,"text":"部長好我想今天最主要是要來跟部長來追一下我們的進度但是我的簡報好像還沒有出來我今天早上跟我們的民間團體還有我們的兒少團體一起開了一個記者會就是在關注我們的高溫自理政策裡面到底有沒有確實的把兒少放進去因為我想在去年的時候我也就已經提出了質詢就是針對我們的兒少的熱傷害其實這個"},{"start":42.89,"end":70.369,"text":"我們的每一年的人數其實都是在增加的今天國建署也有來我想這個都是非常明確的一個狀態那我們是希望說可以有個明確的年齡別及年齡別的風險分級以及行動建議然後還有就是說針對我們的遮蔭地表有一個一致的標準來保護我們的兒少在戶外活動的時候免於熱傷害的一個風險"},{"start":71.63,"end":98.869,"text":"但是當時環境部也有回覆我說會參照這個全球調適的目標的指標架構來跨部會研議本土化調適的指標然後評估納入下一期的這個國家氣候變遷調適行動計畫也提到說是在115年上半年跨部會研議兒少高溫調適指引因應作為指引但也有成立這個抗高溫調適對策聯盟這是目前我們所知道的進度"},{"start":99.77,"end":106.344,"text":"那我想知道就是說我們目前呢到底這個進度的狀態是怎麼樣是還在研議中嗎大概什麼時候會出來"},{"start":108.871,"end":134.486,"text":"是跟委員報告現在確實還在研議當中那我們在3月的時候是有跟各部會來討論這個下一期調適計畫然後必須要對標這個全球調適指標然後跟這個高溫的這個議題那現在各部會在研議所以我們是持續包括像下個禮拜我們還會再跟各部會來把這些目前的進度做一些彙整跟更新"},{"start":135.166,"end":143.969,"text":"那到底這個因應指引的目標因為原本是說上半年要提出那現在其實已經快要五月了上半年其實也只剩下一個月那目前的進度到底什麼時候會提出來因為我們目前規劃是在六月底的時候每一個調試領域都要有一個初稿出來"},{"start":151.252,"end":179.878,"text":"那現在就是因為大家在編轉這個調適領域的行動方案的時候我們希望說把高溫這個尤其是大各界很關心的跟兒少的這個相關的議題都能夠放進去但是也要有一個減核表跟一個目標的設定所以現在都正在討論的是這個部分那我想問一下就是說現在在討論因為現在你可以看到螢幕上面就是說美國澳洲日本其實都有針對於不同的年紀上面有一個分級所以你們的目標是往這個方向在前進嗎"},{"start":181.078,"end":208.616,"text":"其實跟委員報告第一個是您關心的比如說像公園這個小朋友或是學校裡面很多的器具都很燙很燙的那個東西其實未來我們期待是要有一個指引說必須要有什麼樣的遮蔭的一個方案近期總統府氣候變遷對策委員會要求我們要來植樹種樹的規劃裡面也把校園的林木還有小朋友從學校出來到附近住家附近的樹蔭都要顯著的增加"},{"start":209.496,"end":235.569,"text":"其實就是呼應委員的這樣的一個做法好但是其實我覺得可能除了這些地方之外還有就是遊戲場跟運動場因為這幾天在這個我先問一下好了部長我不知道你知不知道大英森林公園很多數對不對是所以想當然了這邊一定是很像對都市來說它又做到一個調節的作用比較涼爽但是你知道大英森林公園裡面最熱的地方在哪裡嗎那個沙灘中間小朋友遊戲區在整個遊戲區對對"},{"start":237.83,"end":258.926,"text":"是全部最高溫的地方而且這個溫度並沒有低於市區的平均溫度所以等於是說我如果我們沒有去考量到兒童遊戲的這個需要的空間也要去做足夠的遮蔭或者是降溫的話那這個地方其實小朋友會待很久那他就有可能造成他熱傷害的風險好那我想問一下就是說"},{"start":259.586,"end":274.745,"text":"因为其实我们这几天全中域也正在举办已经有非常多的教练跟家长也跟我反映我们的场地上面毫无遮掩等于是说赛事在进行的时候选手在等待的时候教练在等待的时候大家都赛上了"},{"start":276.221,"end":287.349,"text":"對 那所以這個運動場館應該都要全面的來做有相關的指引才對因為這個不然就只有在通道上面做降溫可是事實上大家會實際停留的特別是額上會實際停留的這個長時間的場館都沒有相關的遮影"},{"start":292.393,"end":313.54,"text":"所以這個部分預計也是會做一些調整嘛對不對針對遮蔭的部分那這個部分的話進度呢因為之前是回覆說會在下一期的國家調適行動方案那這個也是同一個時間表嗎對現在就是六月底我們希望有一個初稿出來所以這同一個時間表就對了對會提出來跟大家來做這個座談"},{"start":314.704,"end":338.144,"text":"好那我希望就是說因為我們在遮蔭的上面要包含到它的遮蔭率材料規範地表溫度上限等等讓地方可以更清楚的有一個依據可以依循可以嗎可以這個就公園綠地法這個我們目前的確有朝這方向來規劃OK好那我們就六月份再來做一下進度謝謝謝謝張雅琳委員"}]}},{"id":"168737","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168737","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1a4a71673be6f92bd63685f3e6e8cff854f2050ed7b2b649beb3679e204ee1bbe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:45:11 - 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去年就是河山場這個火災它是 它的地點也是在 並不是在這種緊要的區域那另外它也並沒有影響到 就是機組的部分跟在 並沒有到達所以意思就是說 它不會在人口密集重要的地方所以呢 就不需要讓周邊的居民了解不需要通報 是這個意思嗎"},{"start":133.428,"end":138.614,"text":"那未來如果還發生這個情形因為我們都知道啊我們每一年都有在做演練啊但是去年發生這個情形就讓我們很驚訝啊"},{"start":152.032,"end":176.553,"text":"目前電廠都跟就是像地方政府都有更緊密的一些即時的聯繫所以像就是聯絡的平台社群就是一些LINE等等更即時的聯絡平台他們都在更強化那意思就是說這個有列入檢討以後不會發生這種沒有通報沒有周知居民要不要撤離不會再發生這種事在通報的部分就是已經確實在做強化"},{"start":179.269,"end":206.895,"text":"做強化那意思就是以後不會再發生這種被詬病的事實我們會監督就是台電公司跟電廠這邊那為什麼我們會這樣子重視因為我們也很了解光是我們常常講日本寒川廢水日本寒川廢水可是在我們的對岸我們不要講日寒光是我們對岸的海邊大概中國就有20座的核電機組非常的驚人"},{"start":207.995,"end":220.383,"text":"那在這裡呢我們也看到我們現在有所謂的採樣點那有跟水勢所、海巡署、海保署還有你們偵測中心總共有107個取樣點"},{"start":222.924,"end":242.218,"text":"我想問就是面對中國地區越來越多的核電廠現在當前載運跟核組在建的就有112台新核准的有46台所以為了我們的周遭海域跟核能安全著想這107個取樣點有沒有重新檢討還是這樣就夠了"},{"start":250.025,"end":273.399,"text":"報告委員在107點其實我們有涵蓋就是剛剛圖上講的台灣海峽然後也有馬祖金門的還有澎湖的這些離島那在我們未來的因應因為這些是屬還是屬於要人工的採樣跟一個分析所以我們在下一期的一個計畫在監控韌性網這邊我們是希望在離島這邊能夠建立及時的這些偵測站那這樣的話就能夠針對這個"},{"start":280.202,"end":304.591,"text":"所以會增加就對了那我因為在大概五個月前就是上個會期你們和安會來這個地方做夜報的時候我在12月10號當時我有提醒因為民團很多人問每次都是說寒川寒川我們的這個監測儀表板公開的這個儀表板也只有看到川"},{"start":305.311,"end":324.919,"text":"但是呢穿以外的核種也蠻多的啊所以當時問你們的時候當時你們有坦言說像碳14.129目前還沒有能力去檢測所以我當時有說兩個月內請你們邀請衛福部國科會中研院就穿以外的核種對人體的危害風險檢測的技術"},{"start":326.82,"end":332.964,"text":"控管的標準要納入監測的範疇那我在這邊要很肯定因為你們回報給我的資料12月26號你們就有召開跨部會的協調我們也看到像截至目前4月份這個儀表板我們也看到跟以前不一樣了他有其他核穿以外的核種有看到色穿探絲點但實際上你們給我的報告還蠻多的包括"},{"start":356.418,"end":381.23,"text":"還有菇、鳥、地還蠻多的你們說已經改版更新放入這個儀表版當中但是我們看了一下你們之前有寫什麼合格建樹、不合格建樹但是目前這樣的一個實施範圍內建樹大於背景範圍內建樹那它到底是合格還是不合格"},{"start":383.151,"end":399.121,"text":"那包括委員因為這一些其他的河種它是屬於稀少的其實它含量很低那我們當初在大家在討論的時候因為海水它其實是沒有標準的那當然我們的環境就是我們河岸會"},{"start":400.902,"end":427.977,"text":"或者是國際的那個CODES食品的安全其實都有一個標準可是我們覺得這個值都因為它的值本身很低所以我們後來就是用背景的一個概念想說超前的去超低就叫背景對那一般人看不懂啊其實你們公開儀表板就是要讓國人安心嘛看不懂啊所以你們儀表板要不要再去多做一點改善改進"},{"start":429.664,"end":445.236,"text":"好我們這部分再會後我們再好謝謝那最後我有一個部分就是想要了解因為重啟核三嘛那四月也進入審查階段了嘛所以呢有一個公文就是四月二十八"},{"start":447.377,"end":472.277,"text":"會有一個河安會審查河山場運轉執照換發案的地方說明會那當然地方的立委你們都有邀請但是我們看到民間的部分邀請的是恆春滿洲的部分地區但是我們如果以過去電協會發回饋金它受河山影響的地區有四大鄉鎮"},{"start":473.718,"end":500.098,"text":"我們的車城鄉牡丹鄉就沒有被受邀這是什麼原因?已經邀請了有邀請了齁?因為我覺得核安安全嘛最重要的就是知情同意嘛所以這個部分你們有加邀了齁?有加邀了謝謝齁那這個部分我們也想要請教一下核電的人才因為你們要重啟案件所以我們就看到報上說"},{"start":502.523,"end":522.383,"text":"你們目前是在找那些退休老將回鍋也暴露了我們和工人才的斷層所以這個部分尤其是明年會是人力最吃緊的時候我想請教一下何安會你們有沒有做什麼因應就是關於人才的培育"},{"start":524.821,"end":545.656,"text":"有很多方面的除了在公费留学之外我们也申请很多研究计划给清华大学跟国研院培养人才你们有去学校找人了吗有有有他们愿意到你们那边工作吗现在还没有到那边我们工作还只有考试"},{"start":547.117,"end":574.451,"text":"我想这个部分我们也是很希望你们关照一下我这样是说因为其实很多的核废料储存其实都会在我们原住民的传统领域所以我希望你们也不要忘记人才在地培育这件事情我希望以后我来咨询的时候我能够听到这方面的回应因为其实在我们的公务人才培育现在考选部"},{"start":575.111,"end":591.503,"text":"他們都已經有因應的計劃中長城計劃那關於我們高等師資的一個培育原住民的部分教育部呢他們也都已經有中長城計劃出來我就是想要知道現在在我們那個地方又有國家發射廠"},{"start":592.644,"end":619.051,"text":"又有核电厂等等之类都在我们的传统领域你们刚刚自己讲嘛说那个地方是很偏远的地方比较没有人居住的地方那在地人才的培育就很重要啊那我希望这个部分也许我下一次的质询我会希望听到你们已经有中长城计划该如何做人才培育可以吗可以的谢谢主委谢谢主席谢谢委员"}]}},{"id":"168736","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168736","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1345f168d89c5899a63812774c6aab6af4f2050ed7b2b649b123254f0538377ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:43:28 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但是都沒有說明啊都沒有說明啊 你內部都沒有說明事實上這幾家國營事業過去都有自己購買無人機的紀錄像潭水113年就買了7架那台電截至114年8月已經買了214架那本席是絕對支持喔"},{"start":288.112,"end":298.864,"text":"使用無人機來減輕第一線人員的負擔跟讓他們的工作更安全更便利這個本席都非常支持但既然這本來就是國營事業的經營成本為什麼要由經濟部來買單因為報告委員就是說經濟部主要目的是推動產業"},{"start":307.193,"end":309.095,"text":"所以你要推動的是什麼產業無人機產業所以你要買這些無人機給國營事業用這樣子來幫助無人機產業嗎因為這個無人機產業推動它我們會設計它既定的規格然後引進事業相關的規格我就想要知道說這個預算書真的編得很粗糙"},{"start":330.572,"end":334.714,"text":"我翻遍預算書完全看不出來第一要買幾架第二要什麼規格以後具體要做什麼然後整個說明竟然只有寫依據無人機載具產業發展統籌型計畫然後辦理相關的採購具體的採購明細資質未提部長無人機的用途不一樣規格跟價格落差是很大的便宜的一萬多塊就有了然後貴的到幾十萬都有編了一億多的預算"},{"start":360.307,"end":380.778,"text":"您打算怎麼買所以我們事實上是有一個完整的計畫然後都沒有提供給我們對我們可以那個費用在那個完整的提供給我們我是建議部長說其實我們是很看重經濟部的預算我們也希望盡速的把它審查完成但是不能因為我們願意盡速你們就"},{"start":382.138,"end":388.686,"text":"隨便 然後就是很粗糙的去處理因為我舉例來說 一億多欸如果買一台一萬的 你可以買一萬多台一台五十萬的你只能買兩百台那到底是要買幾台 要買什麼規格"},{"start":398.617,"end":416.492,"text":"幾價的部分事實上都已經規劃出來了啦是啊 但上面都沒有寫啊就是完全沒有說明嘛所以我是希望說部長你們編預算的時候你們跟這個我們本會本委員會說明預算的時候也要必須要落實要仔細可以嗎"},{"start":417.994,"end":424.519,"text":"因為雖然我們中央政府致力發展無人機產業需要補充說明因為我們沒辦法空白授權給你們這種資訊不明白的預算我們經濟委員會如果空白授權給你們不是很妥當"},{"start":437.889,"end":449.214,"text":"那另外本席在翻閱我們經濟部115年度預算的這個單位預算當中發現編列的稅入只有67.98億那比去年這個稅入"},{"start":455.517,"end":477.125,"text":"82.11億元喔整整少了14.13億元喔大幅減少大概17.21%我想要問部長預估稅入大幅下降的主因是什麼關鍵數給我的資料我們是少了9億多欸少了9億多嗎你自己看你自己看82減67"},{"start":483.912,"end":506.338,"text":"這數學這麼簡單 你自己看我的螢幕82減67不就是14億嗎是 委員您問的這個數字是有關於部本部的稅務的部分是啊對 那主要減少的就是我們的那個股息紅利的腳庫因為股息紅利像轉投資都是編在部本部是 這就是我想講的你這14.13億喔"},{"start":509.305,"end":516.833,"text":"裡面投資股息紅利減少就佔了13.58億主要是中鋼還有漢翔還有台岩還有螳螂還有台船還有可威環境所以這六家"},{"start":531.863,"end":548.797,"text":"基本上已經連續這個股息已經連續4年都下降了今年跟4年前比更是直接腰斬部長這造成國庫收入大減經濟部投資管理是出了什麼問題這個是拿人民的納稅錢去投資難道不是應該更謹慎嗎因為中鋼的部分我想過去幾年因為國際的鋼"},{"start":558.005,"end":574.118,"text":"鋼鐵市場事實上市況不好因為有比較中國因為大量的這個出口我沒有針對任何一個公司我沒有針對任何一個你們現在投資的公司我只是希望說我們經濟部要投資可能也有一些是"},{"start":575.399,"end":598.684,"text":"政策性的關係也有要輔導性的關係但是呢我還是希望說就好像國發基金他也會在可能這個目標達成之後他會重新盤點嘛那我也是希望經濟部也要做對內的這些投資的盤點不能夠說就任他每年每年不斷的虧損該盤點的時候該調整這個這個"},{"start":604.185,"end":607.906,"text":"投資的比例的時候 他還是賺錢啦只是繳額比較少啦比往年少啦那我沒有每一家都賺錢 唐榮 台船可威都已經連續虧損兩年了是不是 我有沒有認證"},{"start":624.876,"end":639.802,"text":"因為台船他做了這個所以我就跟部長講我沒有針對任何一家公司就是希望針對你們部本部的這個稅入然後這個投資效益你們可以做一個內部的盤點然後能夠對於你們的這個我們納稅人的這些繳的稅呢可以更審慎的對待好不好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168735","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168735","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1ecce62b1e4d2dbbb10d96ca025fdcb7c4f2050ed7b2b649b6b9ecd0214d1f5425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:41:51 - 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主委好主委先和您討論OTT目前OTT串流服務在台灣已具相當的規模了那它的商業模式也從過去單純訂閱現在已經逐步走向多元化那它也正在快速發展中那今天要請教主委相關的風險管理然後還有也跟防範詐騙有關那我們先看到OTT它的平台掌握用戶的帳號還有付款資訊還有使用資料那它以帳號為核心像是使用者的E-mail"},{"start":45.387,"end":61.467,"text":"密碼還有付款資訊那常見的狀況是有帳號外流還有盜用共享濫用黑市帳號等這是相關的問題嗎那現在已經發生有假帳號共享還有假訂閱優惠盜用帳號轉賣那想請教主委要如何來管理"},{"start":62.168,"end":76.887,"text":"是 各位报告其实ODT的部分我们在11111年其实110年5月25其实有通过一个草案对外公布然后当时当时的立法的"},{"start":77.307,"end":95.44,"text":"方向大概是說改為行為管制然後當時也有公告說達到一定規模的話必須要來登記然後可以特別義務那但是方向上還是抓大放小的層級化的一些義務但是當時對社會各界包括業者包括是您講的是當時的OTD轉發嗎那我這邊請教主委您認為它是什麼樣的服務形態"},{"start":99.433,"end":115.829,"text":"我們當時是想要管的標的對象那現在它是什麼樣的服務型態呢它還是架構在Internet上頭的一些這個主要是以PG就是專業型的一些內容產出的一些東西所以它算是類電性嗎"},{"start":117.55,"end":136.141,"text":"對沒錯他算是類電信嗎因為他跟電信服務一樣他提供通訊的傳輸還有傳送訊號那可是他在法律上明確又是不一樣的嗎跟OTT目前他不能被歸在電信管理法沒有錯吧國內的法治是這樣但國外有些南韓國家其實他是有些是用電信來的那這邊請主委說明目前針對治安的問題有沒有最低標準"},{"start":140.061,"end":160.378,"text":"資安部分嗎?對,資安的部分資安部分沒有資安社會相關資安總局官但是OTT的部分我們會我們近期會其他的營運管理部分我們會提出一個軟法的指引來出因為它現在是不受電信監理可是它有類似電信的使用者的規範還有影響它影響層面非常廣那現在因為它也確實"},{"start":161.118,"end":173.711,"text":"那用戶規模很大他也涉及帳號還有資料那他也會影響公共利益所以我想要請教主委喔那目前我剛剛有請教我們有沒有明確的保護法像這都有可能造成個資外線還要衍生詐騙的問題那要如何來管 誰來管跟委員報告即便他現在"},{"start":178.996,"end":205.238,"text":"沒有一個完整一個compact的一個作用法但是其他網路上的各個行為之對應的相關主管機關比方說剛剛委員提到了他消保問題是消保法其實一樣可以處理他的個資假設出了一些問題一樣可以處理像先前一些個案部分其實就有個資法的一些適用我們MGC這邊當時也有利益所以目前資安的保險是可以由個資法來做管管嗎"},{"start":205.478,"end":230.698,"text":"各自部分其實是各自法的規範那對沒錯那剛剛也提到因為他目前平台正在快速的變化中那像是Netflix還有HBO Plus他目前也導向也有導入廣告那面對這樣廣告的風險因為他也會存在著他過去是純訂閱那現在他有廣告加上訂閱那有很可能會有第三方的廣告出現在這個平台上面那其中的他的內容還有他的導流風險誰來做管理"},{"start":233.021,"end":251.432,"text":"如果他廣告涉及到一些跟詐騙有關其實現有有一些打造條例其實也有相關的處理那如果涉及到其他的一些虛偽不實如果看他涉及到的情況假設他涉及到一些虛偽不實"},{"start":252.092,"end":268.982,"text":"會有相關的一些刑法也好或者一些其他的一些其他個別的法律都會使用他差別只是說他完整管理他主要管理他營運的這個作用法律因為主委您剛剛有提到就是ATT專法你們目前ATT專法的進度到哪裡了"},{"start":269.878,"end":295,"text":"因為我們114年提出過草案當時社會沒有共識所以還是停在草案階段那後來因為NCC委員會沒辦法組成說現在我們也持續在更新那你們是怎麼樣去管理跟約束業者的基本上就是說我們目前的最後一版本目前手上的那個最新版的這個草案是說是抓大放小 層級化管理達到一定的規模我們會納管"},{"start":296.081,"end":318.099,"text":"只是當時在遵循各界意見的時候包括本國業者跟國外業者他們的看法會比較會有一些對立那我們也持續在做這件事情所以目前只有草案我們希望可以有更完整的包括平台他必須要負責然後也包含風險管理還有他內容的治理還有因為他必須要對他的平台透明度也要完整的"},{"start":318.779,"end":336.111,"text":"對 我也講到重點所以我們目前雖然印法作用法目前沒有辦法處理但是我們用軟法指引我們都會推出 OOTD 的相關的指引那 OOTD 剛剛我們提到的重點透明度的部分不管他是跟客戶民眾的一些申訴救濟透明度這個指引我們去年已經公佈了"},{"start":337.532,"end":354.991,"text":"所以也希望NCC不只是要求業者要自律啦因為當時候的討論111年討論可是到現在他現在已經有廣告他上面已經有廣告了嘛那當時是沒有的嘛所以這個整個整個平台跟過去是不一樣的那這邊也請NCC多加留意我會與時俱進"},{"start":355.552,"end":377.666,"text":"好 謝謝主委 那再來我也有 本席也有結果呈現民眾反映目前國內像是165詐騙還是1925安心專線等公益服務會因為業者不同的關係存在不同的收費門檻然後還有語音提示的差異那NCT這邊有沒有掌握到 有沒有進行討論呢有 其實前幾天這個媒體也有披露它重點就是說目前165也好1955也好等等"},{"start":378.286,"end":404.744,"text":"那目前相關機關大概是借借中華電信部分那其他非中華電信的電信業者他必須要去轉借到中華電信那邊去那會有一些接續費的問題那目前因為其他比方說165好了這個遠傳台客大它本身也要那這邊本身想要問的是所以你們這邊有沒有召集三大電信業者去討論的呢有 我們平台處有已經找業者但是相對的就是說165的是內政部你們有找業者什麼時候找業者的"},{"start":406.805,"end":426.443,"text":"應該是這禮拜跟上禮拜有在處理然後方向上其實大概是說請這個相關部會也是這禮拜還是上個禮拜因為我這邊了解到目前是還在研議中嘛衛福部然後還有內政部那我這邊想要了解為什麼不是NCC去主動的去找這些業者然後跟其他部會一起共同來討論看能不能制定一個統一的標準"},{"start":427.304,"end":455.06,"text":"跟委員報告這個新聞在處理的階段我們同仁其實就有跟業者來非正式的去了解溝通那後續會朝向什麼樣的收費呢後續朝向是說相關部會衛福部也好啊我們是指三大業者他們會怎麼樣來去做收費像針對這樣子的公益短碼報告委員那個主要是因為主要這兩個那個特別號碼的主政機關包含內政部警政署的165"},{"start":457.079,"end":474.724,"text":"通常這種東西如果需要供應的話其實三大業者在過去其實165以165專線來講它民國94年就配合警政署它第一個它有三大業者有做客服端所以我們現在確實看到它的那個收費標準還是有存在落差嘛那三大電信它的"},{"start":476.704,"end":503.635,"text":"他零收都是破千億所以對社會觀感來說我是希望可以朝向就是有一個標準的收費門檻或是朝向能不能就是都是免費他們主要那都是免費部分可能因為林郡縣委員辦公室也曾經找討論這個問題那內政部警政署說他同意配合編列預算來支應這部分因為既然你們已經有召開過會議了嗎那也在提供本席辦公室你們的會議記錄請送資料給委員OK好謝謝"},{"start":506.679,"end":506.821,"text":"謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"168734","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168734","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f10326b09f2a0dc22b10d96ca025fdcb7c4f2050ed7b2b649b6b9ecd0214d1f5425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:31:47 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會關門大吉"},{"start":237.135,"end":255.815,"text":"我們不希望這種情況發生但是到四月底提名的還有八天我們相信行政院應該會處理我們相信各界 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部長去年11月我們有報導中國有個高德地圖部長知道這個訊息嗎我知道那您自己本身認為這個甚至國台辦已經把這個什麼我們這個能夠精準精算到台灣紅綠燈的描述跟車道一個資訊表示這個對我們這個整個國人的行蹤居住地甚至社交的一個軌跡有嚴密的監控我想部長對這個有什麼看法"},{"start":418.851,"end":437.706,"text":"這件事情我們非常的關注所以我們有去做一些那個分析跟了解那目前我們知道的狀況是說高德地圖裡面的關於台灣的地圖資料不是他們自己收集不是他們自己建的他們是跟荷蘭一家叫做Heart Technology這家公司去購買的資訊進來然後再來是他們的紅玉燈秒數的這個"},{"start":442.509,"end":468.858,"text":"估計的這個功能它並不是串接台灣交通部或者地方政府的資料庫而是它利用它的使用者的那個在紅綠燈前面等待的狀況它去推估的所以它這個功能它當然是有在宣傳宣傳說很厲害事實上只有說在那種交通比較繁忙的那個紅綠燈入口而且有比較多使用那個高德地圖的這個狀況下它才有辦法推估"},{"start":470.119,"end":482.406,"text":"但是我們覺得說最嚴重的事情是什麼就是說依照中國的國家情報法的規定就是說中國境內的組織跟人民都有責任必須支持還有配合"},{"start":486.368,"end":501.565,"text":"中國政府的情報工作也就是說這個所有民眾這個上傳的個資都有可能會有一天中國政府就是突然講說我要這個資料然後他就直接調取了不像是我們台灣我們個資保護法等等所以我們速發部現在那個資安署已經在針對這個APP進行那個檢測"},{"start":507.051,"end":520.335,"text":"確認說有這些狀況的話我們會第一個我們會那個就是要求所有的公部門就是不能使用高的地圖然後我們也會勸導民眾盡量避免使用高的地圖因為這個資安風險非常的大"},{"start":522.256,"end":551.656,"text":"部長 那你們有沒有掌握到 針對這個APP的部分是不是可以回傳到中國境內的伺服器 受益資料目前的瞭解是 它這個很多的個資都會傳回中國大陸所以我想包含我們這個總統府還有國安部相關一些我們關鍵的基礎設施聽起來他們都好像有所掌握了甚至透過一些吸收我們一些台灣人作為一些情資收集的一些管道那未來你們有沒有跟陸委會跟國安單位研究怎麼樣嚇阻這樣的一個情況"},{"start":553.777,"end":581.688,"text":"我們有跟陸委會跟國安單位我們都有在討論這件事情那目前高德地圖它的主要的使用者應該是往來台灣跟中國的這些台商那目前使用的人數還不是很多那我們現在是希望說用那個第一個是用勸導還有其他的一些方式就是降低它的使用量但是我們認為說還不需要去做那個直接的封阻那因為"},{"start":582.689,"end":592.063,"text":"直接封住有時候我知道最後還是要提醒就是我們未來的數位的防衛不應該有漏洞應該再跟跨部委來強化這應該要積極的努力謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168731","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168731","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f10a27105e6dde1ac8f38d440c98c629e74f2050ed7b2b649b14e39bd33e9c15bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:37:45 - 11:51:10","影片長度":"00:13:25","會議時間":"2026-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、經濟部、內政部、農業部、衛生福利部、國家發展委員會就「我國氣候變遷調適現況檢討與全球調適目標接軌之推動情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管預算案。(公務及非營業特種基金預算案)\n三、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款環境部主管部分預算。\n四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會等4家財團法人115年度預算書案。\n\n【預算案僅詢答，115年4月30日下午5時截止收案】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n\n【4月22日及23日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-22","start_time":"2026-04-22T11:37:45+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-22T11:51:10+08:00","duration":805,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.40534375,"end":8.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.396593750000001,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.45971875,"end":11.505968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.239718750000002,"end":33.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.455968750000004,"end":65.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.89409375000001,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.31596875000001,"end":97.50096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.55159375000001,"end":101.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.97284375000001,"end":118.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.37096875,"end":126.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.39096875000001,"end":126.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.40784375000001,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.87971875000002,"end":166.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.57034375,"end":188.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.35159375,"end":198.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.03784375,"end":223.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.99596875,"end":228.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.97409375,"end":233.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.04096875000002,"end":291.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.64784375,"end":344.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.41346875,"end":306.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":345.36096875000004,"end":379.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":379.19534375,"end":433.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.35159375,"end":445.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.64534375000005,"end":443.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.13034375,"end":444.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.48034375000003,"end":445.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":445.78409375,"end":446.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.84721875,"end":468.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.75096875,"end":471.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.97409375,"end":481.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.71096875,"end":497.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.60721875,"end":497.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":497.75909375000003,"end":519.5278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.8484687499999,"end":520.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.0803437500001,"end":524.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.77159375,"end":526.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.75034375,"end":528.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.5053437500001,"end":532.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":528.60659375,"end":528.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.6228437500001,"end":546.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":546.6797187500001,"end":552.7547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.51846875,"end":552.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.53534375,"end":553.1765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":553.05846875,"end":558.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":558.69471875,"end":563.1328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":563.4365937499999,"end":577.8647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":578.23596875,"end":595.4822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":595.4822187500001,"end":649.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":649.3134687500001,"end":651.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":651.0178437500001,"end":658.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":655.30409375,"end":655.6922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":658.40909375,"end":658.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":658.4428437500001,"end":686.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":686.8603437500001,"end":690.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":690.8428437500002,"end":702.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":702.9422187499999,"end":729.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":729.7903437500001,"end":747.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":748.01534375,"end":767.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":766.0209687500001,"end":797.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":798.1340937500001,"end":805.9640937500001},{"spe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Index在2025年的時候呢我們全台灣的排名是第10名看起來成績還算是讓大家可以接受那其實這是一個熱商管理學院瑞士跟韓理事基金會共同發布了一個研究在國際間有一定的這個參考的"},{"start":80.786,"end":107.1,"text":"一個價值的評比工具這個評比主要是在針對各經濟體在經濟社會環境三維度的一個永續貿易的表現那其實也是我們很重視的一個重要的參考指標在2023年的時候我們是第10名那2024年我們是第9名那2025年會回到第10名就是好像他在進步的部分沒有非常的"},{"start":107.72,"end":118.016,"text":"讓我們覺得很明顯那這樣這個指數的表現不是環境部單一部會可以能夠來解決的會涉及到跨部會的這個協力的表現"},{"start":119.5,"end":142.712,"text":"想要請教部長就是這個指標沒有明顯的進展不知道部長怎麼看這樣的意涵包委員我們那個資源循環推動法其實就要把這個概念放進去我相信我們那個法案如果在大院如果通過的話其實對我們整個循環這個永續的這種供應鏈會更完整那過去其實"},{"start":143.172,"end":157.168,"text":"我必須說雖然我們很努力但是法規政策預算其實或是整個人力的投入都可能還不夠所以我們現在希望說未來這個部分謝謝委員給我們這樣的數據我們希望未來可以往上走"},{"start":157.915,"end":182.086,"text":"好謝謝謝謝部長對他們的這個了解跟掌握未來可以再進步的部分其實剛剛講的是全指標那再過來針對環境部在掌管的環境指數方面我們的評比是第12名這個第12名其實跟之前相比真的是好很多在2023年的時候我們是第27名"},{"start":183.246,"end":198.044,"text":"那2024年那個時候部長剛上任那個時候已經進步到第16名那現在去年就更進步到12名表示說我們這方面的這個努力環境部的確可以看到很亮眼的成績可是我們看到"},{"start":199.085,"end":223.184,"text":"比較擔心的就是有幾個指標其實還是相對落後包括我們森林砍伐是第29位人均二氧化碳的排放第25位再生能源的再利用等等是27位其中還有兩個部分叫做廢水處理率跟生態足跡那時候甚至是沒有提供資訊給他們做排名的參考所以"},{"start":224.045,"end":250.103,"text":"部長怎麼看這樣的表現就是在這方面的結構上跟您剛剛所提到的進步的方向有沒有一致謝謝委員那個森林砍伐其實過去不是環境部主導的但是現在因為總統要求環境部要來整合都市林的部分我希望我們開始推動那個都市林要這個樹要倍增的這個方案可以把這個名次我們就會往上提升"},{"start":251.023,"end":275.108,"text":"人均的二氧化碳排放量我們是持續的降但是必須說因為整個我們的經濟發展實在太好了所以基本上我們的減碳的確都在每年2-3%我們今年開始的壓力才大我們減碳是要減到4-5%左右所以這個我們會努力再生能源就是屬於經濟部他們要做的工作其實現在的確會遇到一些波動"},{"start":275.848,"end":289.046,"text":"但是我目前我跟他們討論的時候其實他們還在往這個方向上面例如說再生能源要20 2030年要30這樣的目標要再前進我希望說我們如果有這個顯著的目標的話將來這個名次應該都還有機會再提升"},{"start":291.81,"end":305.28,"text":"是 那我們當然是希望整體排名能夠提升的同時其實是在各方面尤其在指標上面也不要有一部分落後太多那個才代表我們是整體的在進步謝謝部長這方面的說明"},{"start":307.822,"end":324.796,"text":"那再過來是醫療廢棄物去化跟落實循環的部分如何能夠提升這個再利用率我現在雙法處理以後呢應該會逐步的來改善這種狀況其實不管是一般廢棄物或者是失業廢棄物我們的這個去化量很多已經非常的緊繃相對來講可能"},{"start":327.018,"end":342.656,"text":"大家要持續更努力那如何能夠提升這個再利用力落實這個循環永續尤其在醫療廢棄物的部分因為我本身是出自這個醫療單位所以會相對比較關心那我們知道其實整體來講這個醫療廢棄物它的占比"},{"start":345.439,"end":359.775,"text":"其實並不多只佔0.63%可是如果說我們要希望能夠這個資源循環零廢棄這樣的政策目標不應該有任何一個部門要被忽略如果被忽略掉的話就沒有辦法"},{"start":360.356,"end":376.574,"text":"能夠真正的達標那我們也知道這個醫療廢棄物其實有它在利用上的一些困境包括說有感染的風險啊 增加的危險等等那處理的費用其實也是相對可能比其他的部門還要高一些"},{"start":377.054,"end":398.549,"text":"可是不管怎麼樣還是恆青部基本上是一個整股廢棄物的這個主管機關所以還是得擔負起這個體制制度的設計跟這個政策引導的責任所以除了衛福部自己努力以外所以部長有三點要請教就是對於這個醫療廢棄物持續上升會越來越多的趨勢"},{"start":399.269,"end":415.961,"text":"那環境部目前有沒有具體因應的策略這個策略應該只是在監測跟管理而已有沒有更好的政策工具第二點就是是否能夠針對醫療廢棄物訂定更明確的處理跟再利用的準則可以讓大家有所根據"},{"start":416.661,"end":445.368,"text":"第三點就是能不能考慮跟衛福部合作先有一些示範性的示範計畫未來大家有一個標竿學習的機會那這個示範計畫可能要選定幾家醫院那真的這三點部長有沒有什麼樣的好謝謝謝謝王委員因為我禮拜天的時候有遇到這個劉玉平劉師長他是主管這個醫療廢棄物的我們有交換一下意見那我是不是請我們副署長能夠來回答這個事情未來法的過後會我們一起來主導好"},{"start":445.928,"end":467.711,"text":"有請副市長檢要報告委員,我們幾個做法,我們其實今年已經跟醫事室開始合作那委員所提到的減費,其實就是第一個我們跟醫事室要針對幾個項目像是塑膠或常用的用品,我們不只是做一個平常的在利用而已我們希望做高質化的循環,但是對於醫療院所的人員"},{"start":468.812,"end":495.96,"text":"他可能要知道更多的做法心裡要有更大的信任感所以這個東西我們要合作訂出一個指引也就是委員剛才垂詢的部分要讓大家更知道第二個就是說像有一些像是在利用的部分其實現在的在利用已經是60%了那我們這個部分其實也一直持續的在跟醫術師跟醫療院所看能不能滅菌消毒等等或是少用這個都會持續的在努力現在滅菌已經達到26%"},{"start":497.7,"end":523.9,"text":"是 好 看起來兩個部會其實也對我在積極的處理這個議題不過我們在兩年前其實那個時候有請教過貴部就是有關於這個輔導醫療機構的執行內容不知道到目前為止有沒有比較好的執行方式或者是有沒有示範的案例可以給我們做參考報告委員 我們從這兩年已經跟"},{"start":527.161,"end":543.06,"text":"醫療部份是衛福部,其實部裡面不只是循環署、空品、水溫防治等等我們都有一個綠色醫療的推動方案,那我們有訂出不同類型的KPM不好意思因為我今天那個數據"},{"start":544.201,"end":561.557,"text":"沒有準備在身上,這個是不是我們另外再跟我們報告好,那就麻煩布里是不是提供這個可以讓我們看到的成果報告沒問題最後一個部分就是有關醫療機構減碳的政策其實我們在2027年希望能夠完善整體的總量"},{"start":563.539,"end":589.022,"text":"管制碳交易的部分2028年就要開始實施那現在醫療機構相信也是一個重要的部分雖然它整體的排放量佔比只有0.9%即使把這個醫療供應鏈相關的合併計算是4.4%其實這個佔比也在逐漸的上升當中所以綠色醫療跨部會的政策環境部目前的政策方向有沒有已經確定下來了"},{"start":589.802,"end":618.155,"text":"還有環境部可能可以協助醫院來做這個節能的具體方案嗎這個部分請教部長謝謝委員其實目前的我們認為醫院所要做的是節能節能就可以幫醫院減少開支醫院就財務就負擔不會那麼重所以目前長庚醫院做得最好那目前的這個慈濟醫院他現在我們經過我們協助輔導之下又給他們補助一些經費然後他們自己很努力也加入了ASCO的方案所以長庚集團"},{"start":619.815,"end":648.958,"text":"慈濟整個醫療體系會是下一個那其他的呢我們都有在參與但是這個很多的醫院或許他的這個有別的考慮啦真的比較慢那我們會再努力一下跟每個醫院不過因為很多的醫院我們是跟他們一直提醒要減碳要知道自己的用電從ESCO去做是最好的不見得要馬上去算那個碳他只要把這個用電節下來他的碳就跟著減了所以這個部分我們會再積極跟他們的永續長一起來這個努力"},{"start":649.398,"end":671.065,"text":"所以是有具體方案在執行有已經都有在做但是有時候到最後一里路就是這個醫院願不願意真的跳下去做X口有時候有些醫院真的不大願意好那如果具體方案的話也可以給我們一個書面報告好不好一個月裡面這邊經濟部能源署好像陳副署長也在現場剛剛部長有提到這個節能的部分非常重要"},{"start":671.585,"end":688.373,"text":"其實醫學中心真的是他為了要讓整體的環境尤其這個照顧可以更為完整所以這個用電真的是無法真的做有效的節能不過醫學中心裡面這個所有的能源用電電力佔了79%"},{"start":691.435,"end":708.213,"text":"這個電力裡面耗電當中空調又佔了15%照明佔了30%所以如何能夠讓這個節能的管理重點發揮作用這個就必須要相關的部會一起共同來努力"},{"start":708.934,"end":728.666,"text":"那這個部分呢我們如何能夠透過經濟部能源署來協助做一個節能的一些相關的處理模式那我們也了解這個經濟部其實是有一些補助的方案那這個補助裡面最近四年發現說補助三四二次的這個"},{"start":730.007,"end":747.215,"text":"醫院裡面呢公立的占了一半左右表示說公視率其實都有這個需求不過好像整個量並不是那麼足夠那114年度84件案裡面呢有19件是屬於醫院的部門那其中公立院是有6件所以"},{"start":748.055,"end":762.909,"text":"能不能夠 再麻煩請經濟部在這邊多努力包括未來經濟部跟環境部還有衛護部能不能夠針對醫療機構提出一個專案式的方式就是不是跟其他的這些部門做處理而是針對這個醫療部門做單獨的處理不是在這邊"},{"start":766.032,"end":787.1,"text":"OK 跟委員 委員好 跟委員間斷來說明經濟部目前大概有兩個專案在進行 從111年到今年的部分大概已經有補助了78家的一個醫院醫療院所來做這方面的節能每年大概可以節省了大概0.9億度的部分那剛剛委員推詢就是說能不能跟其他部會"},{"start":787.74,"end":805.973,"text":"有個專案的部分來跟醫療院所來做進一步的節能合作的部分那這部分我們跟衛福部相關的部會來一起合作來達到節能的效果好謝謝那我們期待這個會很快有成果給我們做一個參考好謝謝王振興委員發言接下來請張"}]}},{"id":"17372","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17372","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea7a173d75aaeaa133fd98fe59c341977cb1d480c4e0b4ea523003b0d0014d98fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期內政委員會「18歲公民權修法」公聽會","type":"Full","date":"2026-04-22","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-04-22T08:37:54+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-22T11:02:00+08:00","duration":8646,"影片長度":"02:24:06","委員發言時間":"08:37:54 - 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年齡被選舉前年齡是否應一併調整或兩者可採差異化年齡規範"},{"start":1406.075,"end":1435.667,"text":"至於其他對於18歲公民權配套制度之建議也有需要一併討論為釐清上述討論提綱之相關意義特辦這個本次公聽會邀請專家學者及相關部會共同討論以其建立更完善的制度我們會詳時記錄各位的高見並列入立法院公報記錄中作為未來審查法案時的參考那我們現在首先介紹這個學者專家出席委員以及政府機關代表"},{"start":1437.796,"end":1466.932,"text":"我們先介紹我們的學者專家那我就依簽到的先後順序開始介紹第一位我們社團法人台灣青年民主協會發起人也是律師我們何慧慈接下來是我們社團法人台灣少年權益與福利促進聯盟秘書長張宥嘉秘書長下一位是輔仁大學法律學院助理教授姚孟昌助理教授"},{"start":1469.205,"end":1495.641,"text":"東吳大學法學東吳大學法律學系教授胡伯彥教授黃帝隱律師順帶法人台灣民主順帶法人台灣青年民主協會理事長楊之隱理事長國立高雄大學政治法律學系教授廖義明教授"},{"start":1499.797,"end":1524.145,"text":"介紹與會部會官員內政部常務次長吳棠安吳政次民政司檢任視察蔡明謙中央選舉委員會選務處處長王小玲法務部檢察官李子綺教育部青年發展署副處長陳奕聰司法院民事廳法官廖佩玲"},{"start":1530.012,"end":1551.899,"text":"今天公立會的程序如下我們先請部會簡短報告後再請學者專家發言一出席簽到順序委員者每位發言時間8分鐘本院委員要發言的請至主席台登記與兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間為5分鐘最後再由與會的機關代表回應說明"},{"start":1554.031,"end":1561.023,"text":"發言台正前方的燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會響鈴一聲發言時間結束則響鈴兩聲我們現在請部會報告我們先請內政部吳常務次長唐安報告"},{"start":1576.502,"end":1604.798,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生首先對於各位委員對於內政業務推動的關注與指導表達由衷的感謝今天貴委員會召開18歲公民權修法的公聽會內政部應要列席報告請說明意見如下也進行指教第一 關於選舉權行使年齡各國規定不一多數民主國家例如美國 加拿大 法國及澳大利亞"},{"start":1606.345,"end":1618.747,"text":"和與我鄰近的國家也包括日本韓國等都均以18歲為刑時選舉權年齡第二憲法第130條總統選罷法11條公職選罷法第14條均有規範中華民國的國民年滿20歲有選舉權另外在青年基本法第20條也規定政府應保障年滿18歲之青年有依法刑時選舉罷免創制覆決之權"},{"start":1634.99,"end":1642.219,"text":"並於該法施行之日起兩年內完備相關法治該法在114年12月26日三讀時也一併通過為積極實現18歲公民權之願景立法院應延續進行修憲程序並完備相關法治之附帶決議"},{"start":1654.758,"end":1668.929,"text":"基於調降選舉投票年齡有助於提高年輕世代來參與公共事務盧大院對選舉權年齡下修至18歲具修憲及修法共識內政部原則尊重三"},{"start":1670.514,"end":1676.819,"text":"總統選爆法第20條的規定年滿40歲得申請登記為總統副總統候選人公職選爆法在第24條也規定選舉人年滿23歲得登記為公職人員候選人但直轄市長縣市長候選人需年滿30歲"},{"start":1689.689,"end":1712.956,"text":"鄉鎮市長原住民區長候選人需年滿26歲上開兩項的選罷法的規定之被選舉權最低年齡系依據憲法第45條及第130條考量民選地方行政首長必須具備一定之社會閱歷與經驗故在依其職位之層級職責程度分別歷定有不同年齡的限制"},{"start":1716.411,"end":1724.198,"text":"世界各國被選舉權的年齡規定不一美國、日本、義大利規定需年滿25歲,使能參選民意代表韓國、德國及英國則規定年滿18歲"},{"start":1730.166,"end":1754.328,"text":"對於被選舉權年齡限制通常高於投票年齡且所要角逐的成績職責之重要性的程度越高對其參選年齡限制也越高原始有關被選舉權年齡是否調降及如何調降敬請參酌各方的意見來審慎予以考量以上說明敬請各位委員及各位學者先進指教謝謝"},{"start":1762.128,"end":1791.447,"text":"我們接下來請中選會王小林處長報告主席各位委員各位先生各位女士大家好今天貴委員會召開18歲公民權修法公聽會那本會應邀列席報告以下請提出本會的三點說明第一點是有關世界主要國家對法定投票年齡的規範那國民達一定年齡使賦予選舉權是世界各國的通例"},{"start":1791.967,"end":1806.035,"text":"那各國關於這個法定年齡多介於16歲到21歲之間那其中又以18歲居多那這個大概跟各國的國情制度習慣相關法律規定跟所處的時代環境有關那第二點是我國選舉權與被選舉權年齡是否調降"},{"start":1809.437,"end":1815.541,"text":"那有關中華民國國民年滿20歲有依法選舉之權那年滿23歲有依法被選舉之權這是憲法第130條所規定那總統副總統選罷法以及公職選罷法也都依照上開規定"},{"start":1825.166,"end":1843.837,"text":"規定了選舉人年滿20歲具有選舉權23歲以上分別具有各種公職人員選舉的被選舉權那立法院曾於113年3月25日三讀通過18歲公民權的修憲案並且在111年11月26日辦理投票完略那投票的結果是未通過"},{"start":1844.818,"end":1865.516,"text":"那有關調降選舉權與被選舉權的行使年齡對於促進青年政治參與具有正面的注意且與公民投票法的年齡一致利益良善但是憲法對於選舉權與被選舉權行使年齡的規定就屬保障規定或是限制規定目前學說見解不一那"},{"start":1866.497,"end":1886.334,"text":"就應採取修法或是應透過修憲程序來辦理那各界尚無共識那建議這些都應該先與釐清第三點是對於選務作業的影響如果選舉人年齡經調降為18歲那選舉人的人數將會增加會涉及到投票所設置選舉人名冊編造作業等選務實務作業的配合"},{"start":1888.656,"end":1913.884,"text":"那另外依照公職人员选举罢免法131条规定本法修正施行前已发布的选举公告的选举或已向主管选举委员会提出罢免案仍适用修正前的规定那115年地方公职人员选举定于115年的11月28日举行投票并定于8月20日发布选举公告那并以序名以上报告敬请各位委员及学者专家指教谢谢"},{"start":1920.632,"end":1936.559,"text":"其他單位的報告請自行參閱並刊登公報我們補充介紹與會的學者專家我們的社團法人台灣EDU教育協會理事長蔡啟業國立台北大學三峽校區學生會會長陳育仁"},{"start":1944.056,"end":1953.546,"text":"好接下來我們請專家學者發言那剛剛補充再重複一點每位八分鐘那會在結束前一分鐘響鈴那第一位我們請何衛慈顧問發言"},{"start":1965.083,"end":1983.141,"text":"主席各位委員行政機關代表民間團體夥伴學者先進大家好我是台灣青年民主協會的顧問何偉慈律師那今天的這個主題大概是從我2015年參與這個台少盟的18歲公民權的倡議當時我還是一位高中生那十多年過去"},{"start":1983.962,"end":2009.59,"text":"我們在倡議這條路上經歷了很多的事情包含2018年立法院公民投票法下修公民投票年齡到18歲2020年下修民法成年年齡到18歲那2022年也感謝朝野的共識讓我們的修憲案可以在立法院通過很可惜雖然最後人民覆決的時候同意票大於不同意票但可惜離修憲門檻還是有一段的差距那去年"},{"start":2010.771,"end":2030.053,"text":"2025年立法院也通過青年基本法18歲公民權的條文必須要在兩年內國家應該要完備法治賦予18歲公民權18歲的人可以有投票的權利那就產生今天公聽會的很重要的一個問題就是憲法的130條解釋的問題到底能不能不修憲法只修選罷法"},{"start":2031.895,"end":2049.215,"text":"來達成18歲公民權那我們先看看憲法第130條這個條文上面的解釋中華民國國民年滿20歲者有依法選舉之權那解釋的路徑現在學界的討論社會的討論主要兩種一種認為是限制說認為憲法的規定是年滿20歲的人"},{"start":2050.336,"end":2068.979,"text":"才可以有這個選舉權那為什麼會有解釋的空間因為如果採限制說的話如果今天條文是寫未滿20歲不得享有選舉權或滿20歲使享有選舉權那就沒有任何的解釋的空間必須採限制說但我們的條文的規定的模式是年滿20歲那就有"},{"start":2070.461,"end":2095.694,"text":"另外一種解釋的可能就是說因為憲法是對於人民權利最低最基本最底線的一個保障那憲法的要求是要求立法者一定要給予年滿20歲以上的這個國民要有選舉的權利所以今天如果立法院要上修投票年齡到21歲22歲那顯然會是違憲的但如果要下修投票年齡到18歲甚至更低那有可能"},{"start":2096.554,"end":2114.815,"text":"這是不是一個立法形成的自由很多學者會認為說如果給人民更多的權利應該要從寬解釋那如果今天是限制人民權利的話那是可以從嚴解釋那過去可能會認為說裁保障說認為立法院可以修法不修憲的"},{"start":2116.756,"end":2137.163,"text":"會認為說是少數的學者這樣主張但其實並不是因為在過去更精確來講並不是少數學者有這樣的主張而是過去是沒有太多的學者在討論這個議題那自從2022年修法通過之後我們有整理有撰文或是公開表態發言的這個學者專家才保障說認為修法"},{"start":2138.263,"end":2165.213,"text":"就可以達成18歲公民權的學者專家其實是佔了絕大多數那這個部分也請大院可以參考那財保障說的學者很重要的一個立論基礎特別是在2011年廖元豪老師政大的廖元豪老師就提出這樣的一個論述的路徑就可以請大家思考說大家會認為現在9年國民義務教育或12年國教是一個違憲的教育政策嗎"},{"start":2166.053,"end":2189.189,"text":"那想當然而為什麼會有這樣的提問是因為在我們憲法的160條的第一項裡面其實就有寫到6歲到12歲是一律受基本教育那免納學費那國家如果今天因為政策上面的調整因為預算上面的分配要給更多的國民受到基本教育或是更多的國民來免納學費這不應該是憲法所禁止的一件事情"},{"start":2192.257,"end":2207.834,"text":"從這樣的一個解釋的路徑我們也可以從保障說的這個立場來去看說是可以透過立法來去給人民更多的權利並不應該是憲法或是制憲者當初所要禁止的那接著我們來看歷史解釋因為我們也有去考據一些當時修憲"},{"start":2209.675,"end":2228.271,"text":"當時在憲法制定的時候 究竟這個定在20歲的原因是什麼那我們看了一些制憲的史料 包含當時參與制憲的這個學者專家他們在討論這個20歲的門檻的時候 他其實是因為當時的民法成年年齡是定在20歲 所以"},{"start":2230.589,"end":2253.207,"text":"他們希望把選舉權的年齡跟民法成年年齡綁定認為民法有成年有行為能力的國民在憲法上也應該要保障或是賦予他這個投票權所以現在民法成年年齡既然已經下修到18歲那立法院下修投票年齡到18歲就更具有這個法律上跟憲法上的這個正當性"},{"start":2254.108,"end":2266.263,"text":"那看完這個學者的說法以及這個歷史的解釋那也跟大家分享在法院以及司法實務方面的見解因為剛好在去年就有一位剛滿18歲的青年他認為"},{"start":2270.007,"end":2286.824,"text":"18歲應該要有選舉權所以他去主動的去向選委會申請他希望列入這個投票人的名冊那選委會當然是依照因為選罷法的年齡還是定在20歲所以把他的這個申請駁回那這個青年他有向北高行"},{"start":2287.685,"end":2305.432,"text":"提出這個假處分的申請那雖然最後北高行還是駁回了這個申請但是在裁定的理由裡面其實是寫得非常有趣的他認為在選舉權、罷免權是具有雙重的特性是人民基本權利的保障也是民主憲政體制下的這個制度那要"},{"start":2306.488,"end":2325.917,"text":"充實這個選舉罷免權對於人民的保障啊那必須在立法者在憲法所設定的框架下那這邊憲法所設定的框架在法院的裁定裡面是只有寫到憲法第129條這個普通平等直接無盡民原則並沒有把130條放在他說這是一個憲法的框架下面去討論所以"},{"start":2327.378,"end":2347.155,"text":"其實只要遵守憲法的誡命在這個裁定裡面也有理由裡面也提到說立法者對於選舉制度的形成特別是他把年齡放進去立法者對於選舉制度形成的一環包含投票日投票地點投票方法這些只要在符合憲法的框架下都應該可以透過立法來完成"},{"start":2348.646,"end":2368.025,"text":"那在裁定駁回的最主要的一個理由啦他這邊也有提到說我國選舉制度到底要不要給未滿20歲的國民心事投票權法官是並沒有直接丟憲法的條文說不行給20歲以下的人有投票權他這邊提到說如果於法律沒有修正之前"},{"start":2368.726,"end":2393.08,"text":"那不適合由司法者來做這樣的一個決定所以換句話說在這個裁定裡面行政法院似乎肯認在選舉年齡裡面享有一定程度的立法行程自由然後可否允許未滿20歲國民行使投票權這個部分是可以透過法律來修正來處理的那可能很多人會擔心說會不會有違憲或是有"},{"start":2393.76,"end":2415.14,"text":"被大法官宣告違憲的這個可能那我們可以想想看幾個不同的路徑包含如果是今天是要從人民申請必須要有人民的權利受侵害但我們殊難想像讓更多的人民有投票權會有誰的權利受到侵害所以以人民申請這條路應該是不會有發生的這樣的一個情況那接著是"},{"start":2415.74,"end":2437.222,"text":"如果是由立法委員申請那依照我們過去的事件實務是必須要沒有積極行使沒有投下贊成票的立委才有這個申請的事格對那這是立法委員申請的部分那如果機關行政機關包含行政院或中選會申請的部分那我們也會去思考說如果今天立法院真的三讀通過了這個選罷法的修正案那行政部門是"},{"start":2437.882,"end":2465.578,"text":"有必要去做這樣一個釋憲的申請我自己是很困惑也覺得應該要斟酌的一個部分啦包含政治上面的評估或是社會輿論上面的評估我認為說行政部門應該也是不會去走這樣一個申請的路徑那我這邊支持18歲到20歲立法院透過下修公職人員及總統副總統選罷法讓18到20歲的青年是可以投票來平衡世代之聲跟上國際腳步達成18歲公民權的最後一里路謝謝大家"},{"start":2473.697,"end":2474.963,"text":"我們下一位請張宥嘉秘書長發言"},{"start":2496.762,"end":2522.722,"text":"各位委員各位與會的先進跟各位夥伴大家好今天我站在這裡想要先問大家一個非常核心的問題也是一個非常基礎的問題就是為何我們國家18歲的青少年在社會上必須負起各種義務跟責任但是我們的國家確實是不願意給予他們完整的權利這個問題我想台灣民主發展至今是無可迴避的挑戰"},{"start":2524.554,"end":2545.991,"text":"我們首先看到一個很清楚的事實全球有95%的國家已經保障了18歲公民權那我們看到台灣其實反而成為全球僅剩約5%少數的那一群人這代表什麼這件事情其實不是一個爭議是一個國際共識那甚至現在世界的討論"},{"start":2547.712,"end":2560.572,"text":"已經不是在18歲了而是是不是要下修到16歲那台灣還停留在一個很尷尬的位置就是說我們連18歲都還沒有做到那這其實不是一個制度落後是一個民主參與的時代落差"},{"start":2565.894,"end":2582.736,"text":"我們常常會說一件事情就是說18歲是不是還不夠成熟那其實我們可以看到很多的研究其實已經指出了18歲這件事情其實他們可以做了非常非常多的事情"},{"start":2584.042,"end":2606.16,"text":"那我們就是用來科學實證來回答那根據歐美其實很多的研究發現其實我們可以看2011年他的研究指出16到17歲的公民素養已經到達了成年人的水準那設定18歲的門檻本身就缺乏科學的基礎那2023年這一個學者的研究也進一步指出16到17歲的選民"},{"start":2608.462,"end":2626.442,"text":"他們的政治選擇品質與成年人相當他們投票完全符合自身的政策偏好並不是盲目的投票那美國的研究指出認為就是年輕的選民並非盲從父母的意志而是可以獨立展現出穩定的政治人頭"},{"start":2627.463,"end":2645.704,"text":"更有趣的事情就是告訴我們就是權力賦予的本身就會促進政治的參與在2024年這一篇的研究指出當青少年被賦予投票權之後他們會主動搜尋資訊他們也會增加政治的討論進而提升公民自我的效能感"},{"start":2646.565,"end":2657.878,"text":"那2022年也有研究指出相較已經出社會環境變動大的成年初期16到18歲青少年擁有穩定的生活與學校環境這反而有助於"},{"start":2659.096,"end":2686.247,"text":"提高他們的投票率我們台灣社會現在正在高齡化現行的投票制度不可避免的會讓政策比較偏向年齡高的選民只有下修投票年齡把青年真正在乎的教育就業薪資等社會議題納入核心我們的公共決策才能夠真正的有世代的代表性民主是在建立平等權利的上面"},{"start":2687.367,"end":2708.86,"text":"我想說的是如果我們不會因為某些成年人不排斥某些成年人的投票那我們排除具備同樣決策品質的青少年就完全失去正當性如果我們也不會因為某些成年人員的資訊不足就剝奪他的投票權那為什麼我們要用同樣的理由來去排除18歲呢對不起"},{"start":2715.347,"end":2729.148,"text":"過去我們看見很多台灣現行的一些制度其實台灣已經在進步很多了2017年我們下修了公投的年齡2023年民法成年年齡正式下修"},{"start":2729.81,"end":2756.448,"text":"人民團體發起人的年齡也調整就在去年我們也通過了青年基本法明文賦予18歲公民權的公民選舉罷免創制與複決權這聽起來好像很棒很美好可是事實上相關的法治根本還沒有完備我們青年的參政權上在選舉跟罷免權上仍被打了一個非常大的叉叉"},{"start":2757.448,"end":2763.016,"text":"這成為我們在18歲公民權最後也最關鍵的一塊冰土是未完成的"},{"start":2765.961,"end":2791.487,"text":"現行的制度允許18歲的青年行使創制複決權甚至擔任民法完全的責任卻不給他們選舉跟罷免的權利選舉罷免創制複決是一體的討論缺一不可若未來修法只修半套讓他們在選舉卻沒有辦法罷免這不是另外一個很矛盾的問題嗎所以我們另外要再從賠例來看"},{"start":2794.169,"end":2801.266,"text":"這件事情就是現行的兒少權法第十條也保障了兒少代表在政府委員裡面的比例"},{"start":2802.591,"end":2831.206,"text":"高中 高級中學法在53條裡面也明定要輔導學生成立由選舉產生的學生會這代表什麼政府已經認可在體制下給予18歲以下的兒童及少年參與公共事務的賠利途徑既然18歲以下有賠利的管道20歲以上有完整的投票權那為什麼要讓18到20歲這個區間的青年的政策聲音出現了一個空白期呢"},{"start":2833.379,"end":2855.802,"text":"好我們現在來看另外一個就是我們鄰近的韓國他們在2019年的時候在投票年齡已經降到18歲那首場大選18歲投票率高達67.4%比韓國總平均的投票還高他們更在2021年將參選年齡也降到了18歲"},{"start":2858.427,"end":2878.28,"text":"那結果他們在2022年的地方選舉當中青年當選的大幅度成長了1.7倍甚至出現了18、19歲的候選人這個改變迫使政黨必須要導入一些青年的保障制度讓真正的青年從單純的選民轉變為行動者那我們其實也可以看到的是英國他在2006的選舉"},{"start":2883.177,"end":2898.825,"text":"行政法裡面就將參選年齡降至18歲消除投票與參與的年齡落差強化制度的一致性那瑞士的蘇黎一市州甚至有提過投票16歲參選維持18歲的權力脫鉤設計這些都是我們台灣可以去漸進的漸進式民主充全的模式"},{"start":2906.226,"end":2931.869,"text":"那連聯合國秘書長也有呼籲就是不要只把年輕人當作選民要更看做的是合作的夥伴更需要的是能夠一起在合作那聯合國的CRC委員在第20號意見書裡面也有清楚的在明國家應該要擴大民主的空間包括降低投票年齡"},{"start":2933.32,"end":2952.215,"text":"各位委員總結的以上我們的呼籲其實是非常的清楚的從現行的法規充全而上的角度我們早就應該要填補這一段政策的空白還給18歲青少年完整的公民權讓他們在台灣這塊土地上已經承擔夠多的義務跟責任國家沒有理由繼續剝奪他們應該要有的權利"},{"start":2955.057,"end":2971.869,"text":"當現在世界都在闊步向前行當其他國家都在討論18歲降職16歲的今天台灣真的沒有時間再猶豫跟糾結了我們不能只要求金聖龍娘要愛國要青年承擔責任卻在行使民主權利這一塊把他們拒之門外"},{"start":2973.09,"end":2984.914,"text":"請各位委員要支持競速完成修法把最後一塊的紅色XX拼圖補齊讓台灣真正過上國際的腳步還給18歲青少年完整的公民權 謝謝大家好 我們下一位請姚孟昌教授"},{"start":3005.305,"end":3021.005,"text":"主席與會的先進專家學者以及我們的記者朋友今天非常榮幸能夠接受內政委員會的邀請來參加今天的公聽會那要先向委員召集今天的公聽會意義重大那我想"},{"start":3021.966,"end":3043.596,"text":"委員會先行主義以及委員會啊中心主義這是立法院非常非常好的傳統特別邀請學者專家呢到委員會呢周知眾議然後一起啊提供啊意見來充分討論他讓啊立法院的意識的確能夠回應到憲法第六十三條強調的"},{"start":3046.121,"end":3065.074,"text":"必須要有義才能夠有學而且這個義是充分討論所以我非常非常謝謝廖委員今天不辭辛勞來舉辦今天的會議那今天的公聽會讓我回想在4年前我也參加過類似議題的討論那是在2022年1月的"},{"start":3070.376,"end":3089.353,"text":"这个修宪委员会的公听会那这个议题呢当时已经讨论过那我们当时所有参加的学者包含立法院的各党都有一致的共识也就公民权行使的年龄必须下修来符合国际的一个趋势"},{"start":3090.478,"end":3118.538,"text":"而当时的结论是考虑到宪法明文的规定因此除非透过修宪的方式没有办法达成我们让公民权行使年龄特别是选举权跟被选举权的部分可以有一些变动今天我们讨论选罢法的一个前提是如果宪法给我们一定的空间的确我们在选罢法做修订这是应该做的事情"},{"start":3119.847,"end":3130.175,"text":"那今天涉及到的选罢法的规定了我就暂时略过我最主要是着重在宪法第130条的规定"},{"start":3131.075,"end":3158.537,"text":"中华民国国民年满20岁者有依法选举之权除本宪法及法律别有规定者外年满23岁者有依法被选举之权我想这是今天我们讨论的重点那在2022年的修宪案在复决的时候同意票只有564万票不同意票501万票那两者都没有达到通过门槛961万票"},{"start":3161.857,"end":3174.127,"text":"所以呢當時的修憲呢功虧一簣這是非常非常可惜所以我在修憲委員會當時的公聽會的時候我有提出幾點了也就是說如果我們要"},{"start":3175.487,"end":3195.913,"text":"让公民权下修能够成为全民的共识可能大院必须要在相关的说明以及行政院在相关的说明上面都要一起协力我想这个努力今天还是要继续进行世界主要国家对于法定投票年龄"},{"start":3198.127,"end":3222.185,"text":"剛剛兩位先進都已經提到過大概都已經在16歲左右的確我們的選舉年齡定在20歲是不符時代潮流而這個規定是在80年前制定的憲法明文規定的當年這樣的規定考慮到第一個它跟我們對成年的概念是一致的"},{"start":3223.206,"end":3238.552,"text":"那如今就像刚刚两位先进有提到民法的成年年龄已经下修到18岁而且18岁的青年要负担包含了刑事责任以及各项的法律义务所以我想我非常同意刚刚两位先进的发言"},{"start":3239.452,"end":3267.262,"text":"适时调降选举权的年龄这是必要的这不只是权力义务对等的原则这也是要呼应年轻世代他们要参政的一个诉求而且当公投法的投票年龄已经下降的时候为什么选罢法没有办法跟公投法一起修改我想关键就在于130条宪法的规定这个规定让选举年龄"},{"start":3268.089,"end":3294.39,"text":"已經明定他變成是憲法保留事項這跟民法刑法公投法不一樣那剛剛先進有提到其他國家為什麼可以做這樣的一個變動因為其他國家的選舉年齡並不是規定在憲法他是規定在法律那即使是規定在憲法他們也沒有像台灣有這麼高的一個修憲的門檻所以他們很容易就"},{"start":3295.066,"end":3323.253,"text":"在全民有一定的共識的情況之下就修過那我們的問題是我們有共識卻很難去變動憲法的規定那這個問題在什麼地方就是在2005年那次修憲把那門檻定的那麼高那限制的不只是公民權下修的議題包含我們的政府組織還有包含我們的很多的規定都沒有辦法與時俱進這是我覺得非常遺憾的地方"},{"start":3324.264,"end":3350.176,"text":"因此我在2022年的修憲委員會公聽會的時候我已經提出來也就大院不只是應該要思考公民權下修的問題而已同時也要把修憲門檻的部分也要一併的考慮把這個問題訴諸全民我們一起思考一起來面對那在我的一個發言裡面我回應"},{"start":3352,"end":3372.677,"text":"我們委員會的提綱他問說如果把選舉的年齡透過法律下修會不會發生違憲的問題我認為非常有可能不管是透過立法者原意不管透過立法解釋都會得出這個結論而我強調的是什麼"},{"start":3376.309,"end":3400.536,"text":"這是在過去80年還有包含大院在2022年的修憲委員會的時候我們其實都非常非常清楚要去變動這個選舉權的年齡只能夠透過修憲的方式才進行而那個時候是朝野各黨一致的共識那如果我們當時對於憲法的理解是這樣那今天的變動"},{"start":3402.677,"end":3419.489,"text":"我想連大法官大概都會問一下就是說那請問大院你們解釋憲法的根據是什麼或你們在解釋這個選罷法呢在面對到憲法明文規定的時候你們的態度又是如何所以我個人的認為18歲公民權的這個"},{"start":3424.35,"end":3440.061,"text":"訴求呢還是應該要透過修憲來進行那當然有朋友也提到啊像公投呢都已經下修那為什麼我們還拘泥於這個選舉權因為憲法第17條提到人民的參政權有選舉罷免創制覆決"},{"start":3441.994,"end":3469.482,"text":"可是在130條特別用明定選舉權行使的年齡那這也如同大院過去解釋這是對於行使權能的一種年齡限制選舉權並不是毫無限制所以包含居住的限制各式各樣的條件所以這個限制既然它是憲法明定我們還是要尊重最後我提另外一個配套措施也就是說我們在這個"},{"start":3472.748,"end":3482.675,"text":"宪法复决的时候其实也发生了一个问题谁可以参与宪法复决的投票也是20岁因为呢在我们征修条的规定里面啊"},{"start":3484.074,"end":3508.106,"text":"這個可以參與憲法附決的投票是以有選舉權人為限所以要修改的話連同徵求條文的第一條可能也都要一併的修訂所以我最後呼籲應該要思考像大院委員林益錦委員跟吳佩儀委員他們提出的修憲案應該在這個方面著力才會比較允當以上"},{"start":3516.421,"end":3518.94,"text":"好 我們下一位請胡博焱教授發言"},{"start":3526.771,"end":3554.384,"text":"主席 市長 以及在座各位先進 各位女士先生 各位朋友大家早安 大家好 我是動物大學胡柏彥榮幸有這個機會來針對這個議題來發表自己的一點意見但18歲公民權這件事情其實是我想我們已經討論過很久的事情然後呢 有很多 我今天有很多年輕朋友其實可能也會來跟大家訴說說其實18歲公民權的重要性但是作為一個公法老師 其實好像"},{"start":3555.885,"end":3561.49,"text":"並不是要來面對這個議題我們要來面對一件事情是我們在憲法130條裡面寫的說我們的選舉權是20歲被選舉權是23歲的問題這怎麼解決其實我們憲法剛剛其實姚老師有說這80年前1947年民國36年訂的那如果以當初的時間來看的話這時間會不會"},{"start":3574.534,"end":3589.886,"text":"比較晚其實這時間是合理的為什麼因為美國的憲法第26修正案呢是規定是18歲但是第26修正案是哪一年訂的1971年訂的那此前的第14修正案就是現在川普很討厭那個第14修正案呢是1868年訂的1868年是訂在哪裡就訂在21歲啊"},{"start":3593.789,"end":3601.353,"text":"英國定在哪裡?英國1918年定的時候是定在哪裡?定在21歲英國1918年有普選權的時候是21歲女性是31歲後來再統一調降成21歲到了1969年的時候他才把統一調降為18歲所以如果從1947年來看的話20歲這個年齡不是一個太低的"},{"start":3614.941,"end":3630.189,"text":"不是一個太高的年齡其實是符合當初的一個條件的狀況之下但是如果我們現在來看呢很顯然基本上來講這個年齡其實確實在很多國家都是調降的那這是一個比較高的年齡那如果我們今天另外一個議題有關被選舉權這件事情美國沒有調"},{"start":3634.511,"end":3657.4,"text":"美國在26修正案當中調整的是選舉權被選舉權還是留在什麼憲法本文裡面就剛剛其實次長有報告過其實是25歲30歲眾議員參議員還有總統其實不一樣的時間點那當然我們其實現在目前在憲法裡面的23歲但是我們到選罷法以及總統選罷法當中其實在歲數裡面其實也有另外在做比較高的規定這個可以講"},{"start":3658.8,"end":3684.634,"text":"那我們現在問題怎麼處理130條的問題剛剛其實何律師有講到說其實它有可能可以被解釋成是一個上限或者是一個說法也就是說我們還是有可能在法律上面去把它往下調這件事情我一直以為這個解釋方式當中是一個很多數的解釋方式其實剛剛何律師也有提到但是我查了一下我的ChubbGT跟我的Jim你問一下說有誰主張這件事情他都跳出來一個人叫做廖元豪"},{"start":3686.243,"end":3708.091,"text":"然後在我經過逼問之下呢後來他勉強跳出來一個人叫李彥祖其實我也主張這件事情但是他一直都沒有跟人家講說我主張這件事情我一直以為我是多數見解很顯然其實不是 為什麼因為我們其實內政部在民國一百年3月18號有舉行一個座談會在當初黃司長舉行下參加者有江大樹 黃景堂 蕭文森 陳艾爾等八位老師"},{"start":3708.951,"end":3735.931,"text":"那其實這個結果當中而言 基本上廖炎豪老師其實在後來其實在退上有講 全場其實只有他只有他採這個意見 基本上所有人都說要修憲裡面來講 楊泰順教授說要修憲 王業力老師說他其實修憲過程當中而言就有提到說要降低年齡 只是都沒有過 也就是說當初修憲的 過去的修憲確實是有人提到 也就是沒有過黃警長老師說不行的話 我們就視線看看好了 但是這說法"},{"start":3736.631,"end":3761.79,"text":"蕭文森老師不見了 蕭文森老師說如果丟給他 基本上是霸凌大法官因為他沒有想過說他之後會被提名大法官 不然他就不會這樣講了那江大樹老師其實跟陳艾爾老師都採取 劉建宏老師都採取相同的見解因為陳艾爾老師就為了老師是說 其實自憲史裡面沒有提到這樣子自憲史確實就跟剛剛何俊仕的時候講的因為是扒著一件事 有可能就是扒著當初陳念玲的這件事情"},{"start":3762.39,"end":3785.137,"text":"那確實這就是一個問題所以這個說法就變成但是我沒有要改變見解因為我隨便改變見解這時候大家會說我改變見解是怎麼樣我還是認為從歷史解釋跟文藝解釋某些方面來講這是一個出發點可以去討論這件事情但是在討論這件事情我們要面對一件事情如果我們修法可以過的話那我們上次幹嘛提修憲案"},{"start":3786.581,"end":3805.531,"text":"我們這一屆的立法委員拿出來說我們要修法但是我們上一屆的立法委員說我們就提一個修憲案實際上來講當初修憲公聽會我們也來參加不然我是會主張說不要單獨提這個案去修憲因為一定不會過為什麼一定不會過因為他沒有辦法支撐讓人民可以去投那個修憲案的那個什麼的動力"},{"start":3808.373,"end":3836.433,"text":"而當初的修憲案是當初立法院各黨都同意造成的結果就會變成國民黨民進黨等於被民眾打臉你知道嗎我們好不容易把一個修憲案你知道修憲要出立法院是一件很困難的事情通過之後有共識結果人民沒有共識這個代表一件事情這代表是立法院的各黨派是被打臉了那今天其實主席在這你比較幸運的是你的選區裡面還有六成的人其實是可以接受的"},{"start":3837.72,"end":3837.74,"text":"金門"},{"start":3839.181,"end":3866.911,"text":"有68%的人反對也就是說我們在當初呢差距300萬過關但是實際上來講還有500萬的人是反對這件事情所以這裡最大的困難就是說如果我們認為修法可以通過的話那為什麼上次提修憲案要去提修憲案這件事情是當初的立法委員沒有想清楚還是立法委員就覺得說其實應該要提修憲案才通過而提完被人家否決的結果就是說基本上來講"},{"start":3868.26,"end":3881.941,"text":"我們要面對一件事情這個修憲案在上次被否決被否決之後然後我們現在說我們回來提修法那我們怎麼跟當初否決的人民交代說其實修法就可以了"},{"start":3883.103,"end":3909.283,"text":"如果修法就可以上次就應該跟他講喔所以如果用一個相同的道理來講如果我們行政部門呢覺得有一個東西大家都跟他主張說其實修法規命令就可以解決問題行政部門呢就很gay掰的說不行我覺得這個很慎重我們來修一個法律結果提到立法院的時候立法院就要reject跳然後行政機關回去說我們回去把法規命令修一修就好了我不知道這樣立法院可不可以接受"},{"start":3910.023,"end":3931.456,"text":"如果這樣可以接受的話同樣的我想人民也應該可以接受這件事情但是如果立法院覺得行政機關這件事情其實是沒有尊重到立法院的意向的話同樣的我們當我們放棄了原來已修憲的路徑當中來解決這問題回來用法律案解決這問題的時候我們一樣要回應跟人民講說"},{"start":3932.757,"end":3953.736,"text":"其實法律就可以解決這件事情不用讓你們同意而這個最困難就是如果我們要選擇的時候我們就要選擇到底而上次呢基本上來講我們既然選擇以修憲的方式來解決這樣的問題的時候我們最終還是必須要面對其實還是要以修憲解決問題雖然我們有一個李彥祖老師其實有說過"},{"start":3954.837,"end":3971.613,"text":"過去超過兩年之後基本上來講我們是可以重新再做提案那原來公投法確實是這樣規定但是呢公投法這樣的設計呢並不是說你這個過了之後叫你再去提一個法律案叫你過的時候是說我們還是可以再提其他公投案這件事情"},{"start":3972.333,"end":3996.302,"text":"所以基於我這樣認為是說雖然傳統上面來講我覺得其實本來應該單純透過修法來解決就可以了但是既然我們在上次選擇了以修憲的路徑來解決這個問題的時候我們不能在上次修憲沒有過的時候然後呢再來選擇以修法的方式來解決這個問題這樣的話會漠視這五百多萬反對這件事情的民意以上 謝謝"},{"start":4003.783,"end":4005.365,"text":"好 我們下一位請黃定穎律師發言"},{"start":4020.345,"end":4042.125,"text":"首席各位與會先進媒體朋友對於這一個18歲公民權的議案當然本質問題跟憲法修憲有關那因為憲法130條的命運規定中華民國國民年滿20歲才依法有選舉之權那是法律的憲法的規定那我也贊同剛才博焱老師所講的說上次提的修憲"},{"start":4044.566,"end":4057.311,"text":"卻沒有過之後再提修法會有本質上問題所以根源問題確實是修憲但是我不認為說提案修法會當然抵觸憲法而且提案修選罷法來降低年齡門檻我認為它有正當性"},{"start":4058.812,"end":4082.509,"text":"那我看的是這次提案的不分朝野都有這樣的共識其實跟上次在提出要憲法覆決要立法院四分之三這麼高的門檻都過得出去所以現在提案去修18歲公民權用選罷法的方式去修法那他確實跟當時的立法院的四分之三修憲門檻的朝野的共識應該是相當的那上次在"},{"start":4083.77,"end":4111.428,"text":"憲法修憲的這個覆決案在2022年這一次是很可惜是說它只有564萬張票那沒有突破它的門檻因為我們在修憲門檻上面有雙高門檻這在世界上大概是非常罕見的超穩固憲法也就是說立法院要四分之三公民要一半所以961萬是沒有達到的但是它有564萬如果我們把它拉回到目前現階段的"},{"start":4112.068,"end":4131.665,"text":"用公投的思考來看如果對於立法原則之創製都認為18歲公民權把它思考成立法原則之創製的話就是說我們立法原則上面應該要有18歲公民權如果回歸到我目前的公投法我們500萬票就過關了所以564萬其實如果用公投的方式處理"},{"start":4132.145,"end":4158.352,"text":"他其實是符合民意的趨向也就是民意多數民意在公投的適度之下還是認為18歲公民權是符合多數民意的立法原則的創止那在第二個部分正當性在於我認為在憲法的平等原則我們在談體系正義體系正義的概念是什麼在德國聯邦憲法法院他的簡單的講就是立法者要自我拘束不能說我今天立法都隨意的去做立法他有一個"},{"start":4159.892,"end":4183.11,"text":"一罐的體系所以這樣的立法原則之拘束在我們112年立法院通過了民法修為成年人是18歲那刑法本來就規定成年人是18歲同樣都是18歲我們在立法部門認為18歲的人年輕人就給他認為說他應該要負起完全的行為能力還有完全的責任能力他是一個"},{"start":4184.13,"end":4211.924,"text":"有一個正常的識別的能力有辦法去判斷意識他是完全要對自己負責的在民事責任上面刑事責任上面都一樣所以我們國家在上面認為說18歲的人他就知道如果他犯罪了他就明知道他是違法的行為他是犯罪的行為他就要被判刑他就要如果說在民事上面有相關的侵權責任他也要負起完全的責任所以我們立法部門的思考是說18歲的人是完全的行為能力人要負完全的責任能力"},{"start":4212.304,"end":4232.936,"text":"那同時我們在公投法上面也設計說他對於你看我們公投法明文規定18歲的人他是可以對於國家重大政策立法原則進行創制覆決這是我們公投法上面對於一個18歲的人的思考是他可以完全判斷這個國家的政策他可以完全判斷這個立法原則是不是要做創制跟覆決"},{"start":4233.576,"end":4259.102,"text":"所以我們在立法部門上面對於18歲的人刑事責任也好民事責任也好乃至於公投法對他科語的說他對於國家重大政策的創制覆決或者是立法原則的創制覆決都有這樣的判斷的能力那在體系正義的思考是立法原則的這個體系上面的思考是他要自我拘束啊所以對他用選罷法給他18歲的投票權當然是符合我認為"},{"start":4259.903,"end":4277.443,"text":"符合體系正義也就是說我們立法部門對於自我拘束是思考是民事責任刑事責任公投法上面重大政策的創制覆決立法原則創制覆決都是18歲那給他投票權18歲這個草野上面的立委的提案我認為是符合體系正義的"},{"start":4278.044,"end":4305.941,"text":"另外一個是世代正義的問題世代正義的問題是我們目前是超高齡的這個社會那所以在18歲公民權運動超過20年以來這個目前的超高齡社會如果以世代的整體來講年輕世代要撫養整個國家的這種撫養的責任他的投票權的比例在中高齡相形之下他比較少他會形成公共政策資源分配的不當傾斜"},{"start":4306.841,"end":4333.888,"text":"所以如果從世代正義角度這個思考來落實的話18歲公民權透過選罷法的方式去做修正是符合世代正義價值也就是說在整體的超高齡老人中高齡老人化的這樣的社會中高齡化的社會裡面讓年輕世代他要在分配相關的政策資源的時候不會有不當傾斜所以降低為18歲的公民權其實是符合世代正義的思考"},{"start":4334.528,"end":4356.415,"text":"另外一個是說我認為修憲它不當然違憲是因為如果一個比較我認為是進步的立法如果是進步的立法哪怕真的送到大法官那邊去他也未必當然認為說我相應的去解釋憲法第130條20歲就是相應的20歲如果更加進步的思考是說大法官未必會有這樣的思考認為這樣就是違憲"},{"start":4358.155,"end":4377.676,"text":"那我們看歐美國家在18歲公民權推動也接近半個世紀亞洲國家包括日本在2016年也修法讓18歲有這樣的一個投票的權利韓國也是一樣所以我們台灣目前現階段的因為憲法的明文規定把它僵化的變成20歲才能有投票權"},{"start":4378.437,"end":4392.508,"text":"這件事情其實在國際上來看其實是不是那麼的進步的一個法律那這也凸顯的是說我們現在超高門檻的修憲其實也沒辦法對應上國際的潮流那這個是根源的問題所以回過頭來看是說"},{"start":4394.529,"end":4417.572,"text":"現階段因為朝野都有提案立法委員都有提案我們在憲法訴訟法第49條的規定是說要現有總額的立法委員的四分之一提案才會去假設今天修過了選罷法的18歲的投票權那也要有四分之一的立委當時是反對也就是現在反對那我看起來朝野都是支持的就是說從提案這次的修選罷法"},{"start":4418.553,"end":4447.047,"text":"不論哪一個政黨都有提案這樣的一個支持那支持修選罷法的18歲公民權如果他沒有四分之一以上的人反對他就不會有這樣的一個啟動的機制那我認為行政部門也未必會有這樣的思考我大概看了一下中選會的資料中選會的資料有一個稍微保留的狀態是說他說這個會有造冊上的困難可是我們在公投法都已經公投過了造冊上沒有困難公投法是18歲就可以公投了"},{"start":4447.307,"end":4465.228,"text":"所以當時公投那麼多次了18歲是沒有問題的所以技術上的問題我認為不嚴重當然根源的問題當然還是憲法130條如果能夠修憲當然是修憲是根源解決問題但是如果要通過修法的方式我認為他是有正當性的而且不一定抵觸憲法謝謝"},{"start":4472.925,"end":4499.987,"text":"我們補充介紹一下與會的學者專家我們國立台北大學公共行政記憶政策學系助理教授陳耀祥助理教授歡迎 歡迎回來我們國立政治大學學生會會長陳玉靜台灣青年思潮協會發起人何潔恩台灣新文化青年協會共同發起人陳廷楚"},{"start":4503.308,"end":4504.214,"text":"我們下一位請楊姿穎理事長發言"},{"start":4516.451,"end":4543.617,"text":"主席委員以及各位委員會 先敬請大家好我是台灣青年民主協會理事長楊姿穎那我想先從一個已經非常清楚的事實開始那在青年基本法通過的過程中呢朝野主要 三個主要政黨都已經表達了對18歲公民權的支持這代表18歲公民權它不只是某一個政黨的主張或是某一方的主張而是立法院形成的跨黨派共識那"},{"start":4544.717,"end":4559.717,"text":"今天的這場公聽會呢其實關鍵不在於要不要做而是在於我們要如何把這個已經成為共識轉化為一個穩定而且可以實行的規定制度那另外我們也想要先回應一下剛剛前面"},{"start":4560.638,"end":4582.694,"text":"先進提到的就是過去的討論親民協當時在遊說各黨立委的時候呢2022年修憲委員會的討論委員們是認為先修憲試試看對於說法也沒有進一步的討論因為我們在2022做出了史上第一次的修憲公投但我們都知道修憲的門檻有多高因而沒有通過也在我們公民團體的預料內"},{"start":4584.155,"end":4601.139,"text":"到2025年青年基本法的討論過程中三黨都明確表示支持直接收法不修憲實現18歲公民權因此親民社的立場是非常的清楚我們全力支持透過修正總統副總統選舉罷免法以及公職人員選舉罷免法兩部法規來實現18歲公民權的修正那因為這件事情本質上是全力以及"},{"start":4610.081,"end":4634.231,"text":"義務的對齊今年的18歲青年已經是領法上完全的行為能力人那也必須承擔完整的刑事責任以及各項法律的義務但在政治上卻仍然被排除在外當一個人被要求對社會負責卻沒有要參與社會不能參與社會決定的方向權利這樣的制度本身就是不對等的那從國際比較來看剛剛佑大姐有提到說18歲公民"},{"start":4638.413,"end":4665.823,"text":"投票是多數民主國家的基本標準台灣如果繼續維持在20歲不只是落後更是在制度上延後了青年進入公共參與的時間但同時我們也想強調一個很重要的態度我們支持18歲公民權但不主張它衝突上路我們制度需要配套包含學務準備行政調整以及更完整的公民教育如果只追求時間點而入列改"},{"start":4666.263,"end":4680.773,"text":"改革的品質它可能削弱改革本身的正當性我們期待的是一個可以長久運作被社會信任的18歲公民權而不是一個匆忙上路的版本接著我也想回應到今天提到中另一個關鍵的問題叫做被選舉權"},{"start":4683.195,"end":4704.453,"text":"當社會開始討論是否要下手選舉年齡的時候其實已經顯現了一個非常重要的訊號台灣社會已經準備好讓公民更直接的參與公共事務如果我們相信18歲的青年有能力做出政治選擇那我們應該更進一步的思考是否也應該讓他們有機會成為被選擇的人因此我們認為被選舉權的年齡確實應該可以開啟下手的討論"},{"start":4708.816,"end":4724.365,"text":"至於具體年齡如何設定是否以不同職務設計差異形成門檻我們認為可以交由立法院相關委員會以及主管機關透過專業與社會對話來形成共識但方向是清楚的讓青年不只是參與者也有機會成為決策者"},{"start":4725.766,"end":4750.316,"text":"最後我們也想要從憲法發展與實務解釋的角度來回應今天提綱中關於憲法第130條的討論目前憲法第130條的規定是說年滿20歲者有依法選舉職權在法律解釋上確實存在不同的見解這究竟是對權力的保障還是對年齡的甚至但我們認為在討論這個問題的時候不應該只停留在條文的字面"},{"start":4751.016,"end":4767.423,"text":"裡面在我國的實務中司法院4至第392號解釋就曾指出憲法並不是一個禁止的概念它是會隨著我們國家與社會的發展在既有的條文之下不斷的透過解釋與適用來回應新的時代情境這提醒我們"},{"start":4769.284,"end":4794.634,"text":"宪法的意义不只是来自于历史文本本身而是需要放在整体秩序与当代价值之中被重新理解与实现同样的我们也可以看到宪法第160条原条文里面有规定6年的国民义务国民教育那在今天台湾已经发展成为12年国教的国家这些发展都说明了一件事情宪法所揭示的制度并不是一成不变的"},{"start":4795.074,"end":4819.219,"text":"而是隨著社會需求不斷的調整與深化因此當我們今天面對憲法第130條時關鍵不只是條文怎麼解釋而是現行制度是否仍然符合當代社會對於公民權的見解我們認為不論最終是透過法律修正或是進一步的憲政程序重點不在於入境本身而在於是否有這個意願將既有的社會共識轉化為實體的"},{"start":4822.373,"end":4843.043,"text":"最後我們想說18歲公民權它不只是讓青年去投票它代表的是我們是否我們這個社會是否真正相信青年是否讓青年願意成為民主的一部分如果青年基本法是價值的宣示那麼18歲公民權它就是一個制度的實踐我們期待立法院能延續既有的跨黨派共識"},{"start":4844.224,"end":4862.85,"text":"稳健推进的修法让这项权利真正落实同时我们也认为应该要对社会公民进行沟通让民众们知道修宪与修法并非冲突最终是为了达到18岁公民权法之后的途径选择让青年人参与能发声也能共同决定台湾的未来谢谢大家"},{"start":4872.23,"end":4901.017,"text":"我們下一位邀請廖毅民教授發言主席各位委員各位先進大家好我是國立高雄大學政治法律學系的廖毅民很榮幸受大院邀請到此公聽會來發言並且提出一些來自南台灣的意見"},{"start":4903.182,"end":4919.998,"text":"針對18歲公民權的修法議題我並不反對任何一項已通過或正在審議的法案而是希望就投票年齡下修至18歲這項重要的民主進步的修法呢提出一個我認為不能迴避的配套問題請各位委員及相關主管機關能夠認真加以正視"},{"start":4921.502,"end":4940.669,"text":"首先我必須非常明確的表示我非常支持將投票年齡下修至18歲這是台灣民主發展的重要里程碑18歲的年輕人已經完成基礎教育許多人也進入大學職場甚至於已經在繳稅服役但有資格也有能力對這個國家的未來表達意見"},{"start":4941.829,"end":4959.338,"text":"也就是這項修法代表國家正式宣告台灣這個社會承認18歲的公民具備參與民主政治的判斷能力與公民資格這一點我沒有任何異議也無法提出任何反對的意見但我個人對這方面的支持還是有條件的"},{"start":4960.575,"end":4988.743,"text":"因為今天的這個議題的重點在於我們立法院是否能夠透過立法來制定一個法律文字明顯違反憲法條文的法律關於這個問題我認為有一個更必須要討論的進一步問題那就是這樣的修法通過之後究竟會不會產生大法官未來在某種案件上必須宣告此一修法是違憲的才能夠符合憲法條文並且能夠平息民怨"},{"start":4989.892,"end":5014.758,"text":"我認為此修法如果通過的話大法官必須如果未來在某些案件上面必須宣告他違憲可能會是因為當國家宣告18歲具有公民資格的同時我們的少年司法制度卻未能做同步檢討因此造成了部分人民有可能因此而受到憲法所保障的權利受到嚴重的侵害"},{"start":5015.97,"end":5036.853,"text":"而這個議題又是涉及到前些日子大院也非常重視的善事法的修法議題現行少年事業處理法對12歲到18歲的未成年人提供了相當程度的司法保護這種制度的立法初衷我完全了解也相當尊重少年的心智尚在發展具有高度的可塑性"},{"start":5037.674,"end":5057.293,"text":"司法介入應以教育、矯正、富規社會為優先而非單純的懲罰這個精神完全沒有錯但這個制度執行結果到現在達到什麼樣的目的呢我們都看到達到了也出現了相當嚴重的制度上的漏洞這個制度上的漏洞被有心人被犯罪人士有系統的利用"},{"start":5058.214,"end":5080.757,"text":"主要就是我們都能看到的詐騙集團與犯罪組織正在利用邵氏法來作為他們招募未成年人的一個非常好的理由近年來台灣詐騙集團、毒品犯人網路以及各類幫派組織刻意大量及系統性的招募未成年人擔任犯罪工作的第一線執行者"},{"start":5081.717,"end":5101.267,"text":"讓少年去擔任詐騙的車手領取被害人的錢提供或出售個人帳號成為洗錢工具運送毒品擔任第一線的運毒員以及在暴力討債或聚眾支持當中衝鋒陷陣為什麼犯罪組織要這樣做答案非常簡單也非常令人不安因為他們知道"},{"start":5101.807,"end":5117.946,"text":"未成年人就算被抓在現行肇事法的保護之下受到法律後果也相當輕微前科紀錄也受到保護對犯罪組織來說使用未成年人的犯罪成本非常低於成年人"},{"start":5119.27,"end":5139.929,"text":"這不是我的推測而是犯罪組織公開對少年講的話他們告訴這些孩子說你還沒成年就算抓他們也沒事少年法院頂多給你保護處分不會關你或者是幫我們做有錢來又不會怎麼樣各位委員當一部保護少年的法律變成犯罪集團招募少年的廣告詞的時候這樣法律執行就出現了嚴重問題"},{"start":5142.25,"end":5152.935,"text":"於是我們必須問的是我們現在的少年保護制度我們現在少年保護制度是否能夠符合我們所期望的將公民權下修到18歲這樣的一種社會的整體共識"},{"start":5156.207,"end":5169.617,"text":"因此我們必須回到今天的議題國家決定將投票年齡下縮到18歲這代表一個非常重要的法律宣示也就是18歲具有公民判斷的能力但在這個同時我們的少年司法制度卻對15歲16歲17歲也就是不到18歲"},{"start":5173.94,"end":5197.974,"text":"即使才少一天的少年犯下嚴重罪行仍然維持於相對輕度的法律後果這產生了一個邏輯上的矛盾也就是說國家說18歲可以決定誰來治理這個國家但制度就說18歲以下犯詐欺、孕吐、暴力犯罪仍然以保護為優先責任相對有限"},{"start":5199.025,"end":5215.199,"text":"我在這裡並不是要說少年不需要保護我也並不是主張說要把所有少年都當作成年來處罰我想說的是當我們提升年輕人的政治權利的時候我們也應該同時同步的提升他們的法律責任讓權利與責任能夠真正對等"},{"start":5218.522,"end":5238.877,"text":"一個只享有權力卻不需要承擔對等責任的制度設計並不是在保護年輕人而是給年輕人傳遞一個錯誤的訊號那就是在台灣年輕人可以享有權力但不必承擔責任這樣的訊號對年輕人的法治來說是有害的因此我有以下幾個具體主張首先"},{"start":5239.958,"end":5269.117,"text":"我主張少年事件的這個責任分級的話應該與我們這次的這個18歲公民權下修這個議題能夠綁在一起現行肇事法對12歲至18歲的少年基本上才統一的保護主義框架但12歲到17歲在心智、成熟、判斷能力、社會經驗上其實有著相當大的差異我建議將公民權下修到18歲的同時更應考慮建立更細緻的年齡分級責任制度"},{"start":5269.637,"end":5288.127,"text":"比方說12歲到14歲應該維持保護教育與矯正為主的處理原則15歲到17歲對於重大故意犯罪尤其是詐欺、毒品、組織犯罪、暴力犯罪應該建立更明確更有效的責任機制以及接近18歲者"},{"start":5289.748,"end":5308.767,"text":"對特定的嚴重犯罪因嚴育引入或更接近成人責任的處理方式這樣的分級才能夠保留少年保護的精神也能夠讓責任制度符合現實第二個我主張要明文加重利用少年犯罪的這個成年人的刑責我必須強調少年往往是被利用的"},{"start":5309.648,"end":5310.589,"text":"以上是我個人的意見 謝謝"},{"start":5340.435,"end":5342.784,"text":"那我們下一位邀請蔡企業理事長發言"},{"start":5356.65,"end":5376.666,"text":"好 祝熙那在座各位關心18歲公民權的各位夥伴大家早安 大家好我是臺灣EDO教育協會的理事長蔡奇業那首先我想要代表協會的立場表達我們當然支持以修法的方式來推動並且完成18歲公民權那回到今天的討論提綱其實我想我們先從國際比較的角度來談起"},{"start":5377.907,"end":5392.786,"text":"其實近代民主國家就18歲公民權的立法時程來看降低投票年齡是一個很顯著的趨勢就如同剛剛茶余慧先進所提到的那早在1946年其實捷克就已經率先的將投票年齡由21歲降到18歲"},{"start":5395.189,"end":5410.129,"text":"那其後在1960年代從英國、加拿大、德國到美國這些我們目前所想見的民主國家其實也基於權力跟義務對等的概念我們已經展開了這一波的降低投票年齡的運動"},{"start":5411.673,"end":5438.384,"text":"那在這之後其實也逐步擴展到全球目前世界上絕大多數的民主國家我們已知的都已經將18歲作為投票年齡那甚至是像奧地利其實在2007年也進一步的將投票年齡下修到16歲那最近2024年的歐洲議會選舉其實包含比利時、德國、奧地利、馬爾他等四個國家的最低投票年齡也是16歲"},{"start":5440.555,"end":5466.203,"text":"參考鄰近國家日本在2016年的時候他們在參議院選舉的時候18歲開始有了投票權韓國跟馬來西亞也在2019年的時候完成了改革把投票年齡下修到18歲所以我想就世界上主要的國家對於選舉年齡的規範上毫無疑問的是最低投票年齡的共識是以18歲為主的"},{"start":5468.171,"end":5485.978,"text":"甚至許多國家的討論都是聚焦在我們是否要向下邁向16歲所以台灣目前是東亞唯一一個人將公職人員的選舉權的門檻設在20歲的民族國家我們也是少數把最近投票年齡定在高於18歲的一個國家"},{"start":5487.782,"end":5508.087,"text":"那再來我想從整個我國的整個法治體系來看其實民法在2023年也已經把成年年齡下修到18歲那其實談到兒少權法我們也是以18歲作為兒少與成人的分界那再來其實去年剛通過的青年基本法我們也明確的把青年的定義定義在18歲以上"},{"start":5510.187,"end":5535.409,"text":"所以把選舉權的年齡調降到18歲不只是跟國際社會接軌我們也是讓18歲在權力跟義務上相符那當然今天的重點應該是我們是不是可以透過修法的方式來處理18歲公民權那就青年團體的立場來講我們當然是明確支持修法的路徑但我想我們必須要再進一步釐清的其實正如剛才余慧仙靜所提到的"},{"start":5535.789,"end":5555.845,"text":"在2022年的立法院討論修憲最後的共識其實是因為在修憲上更有共識所以我們才採取了修憲的路徑但是當時並沒有進一步討論修法的可能可是其實從民間團體的立場來說一直我們都有主張修法跟修憲"},{"start":5556.545,"end":5579.142,"text":"的這個可能性所以其實這個是在當時的脈絡下修憲的支持相對比較有共識的情況下才採取修憲的入境那特別是到2022年的修憲覆決其實在960萬票的這個高門檻下其實同意票仍然大於不同意票所以其實在社會上也是有多數民意的支持"},{"start":5580.458,"end":5597.196,"text":"那所以我想剛才其實有議會先進有提到這可能會有這個變相打臉立法院與民意的問題但我想在這個朝野跨黨派有共識的情況下那其實我們也在社會共識具有多數民意的支持下我想並沒有所謂打臉的問題"},{"start":5599.438,"end":5616.76,"text":"特別是其實這個修憲覆決沒有辦法通過的原因並不是因為民意不支持而是制度上修憲的門檻過高導致我們無法實現18歲公民權那到現在其實我們看到剛才的所有的與會專家學者其實都支持18歲公民權"},{"start":5618.041,"end":5639.562,"text":"但是到今天我們定下的這個修憲門檻我想目前想要改變是恐怕很困難的所以如果我們都是支持18歲公民權的這個前提下那我們應該在憲法有解釋空間的情況下我們盡速的來通過跟實施但我想否則我們可以預見的是"},{"start":5640.864,"end":5647.353,"text":"在大家就算都支持18歲公民權的前提下我們很有可能在未來的10年20年因為憲法上的問題而導致我們18歲公民權遲遲的沒有辦法落實"},{"start":5653.81,"end":5680.239,"text":"至於今天另外一個討論到18歲公務權是否包含被選舉權的部分我們的立場是我們認為應該要納入而且在制度上其實也有正當性我想首先當然就如同剛才所講的法律上既然已經承認18歲具備完全的行為能力那就代表18歲應該具備承擔權利跟義務的這樣的一個基本的能力也應該具備基本參政的權利"},{"start":5681.109,"end":5699.817,"text":"所以對於18歲公民權在被選舉權的部分我想有一部分的誤解必須要來釐清是18歲就算具有被選舉權我們在未來定定之後其實也不代表18歲就可以毫無限制的參選就如同剛才大家所討論到的其實"},{"start":5701.238,"end":5729.637,"text":"目前包含憲法第45條是規範包含總統副總統的候選人年齡需年滿40歲那目前的工作人員選舉罷免法第24條也有規定直轄市長跟縣市長候選年齡需要滿30歲那鄉鎮市長跟這個原住民區長的候選人也必須要年滿26歲所以以上的這一些這個不論是憲法也好或是這個法律也好在沒有更動的情況下面我們目前的被選舉"},{"start":5730.778,"end":5750.543,"text":"年齡的改變並不會隨之的發生那所以我想在18歲具備選舉權的這個部分其實最終的決定權還是掌握在選民的手中那選民的選擇認為這個候選人是不是具備具有合適能夠事任這個位置的這個"},{"start":5753.111,"end":5770.446,"text":"問題其實才是候選人是否有辦法擔任公職的原因那所以如果選民最後投票否決了這樣子的候選人認為他不適任那我想這個可能才是問題的本因我們不應該因為這樣子而限制在被選舉人的年齡"},{"start":5771.738,"end":5800.152,"text":"那最後關於這個未來制度的推動其實我想除了既有的公民教育應該要在強化以外其實在模擬投票等等的制度也應該在未來假設通過18歲公民權的情況下我們要協助首投組做整個包括首席選舉流程的一個動作那我們也應該要繼續的承擔不論是中選會或是教育部都應該要來做選民的教育的一個責任那我們建立一個更完整的知識體系"},{"start":5801.192,"end":5815.405,"text":"我想最後最重要的是18歲公民權的討論其實也不只是年齡的調整是我們怎麼樣看待青年在這個社會中的位置所以我們還是呼籲立法院應該要盡速的來拍攝18歲公民權的修法草案謝謝大家我們下一位邀請陳育仁會長發言"},{"start":5836.409,"end":5863.064,"text":"主席在座各位委員然後青年團體夥伴與會先進 大家好我是國立台北大學生涯校育學生會會長陳育仁首先我想要強調就是朝野對於18歲公民權這件事情是有高度共識的那也在這樣子的基礎上面通過了早先通過了青年基本法那也在第20條條文內明定兩年內需要完備相關的法制那也因此有今天這樣子的公聽會那讓大家來表達相關的意見"},{"start":5864.164,"end":5889.966,"text":"那作為一個大學學生或會長我們在大學校園裡面代表學生那跟校方爭取權益那我們也相信民主能夠深化相信民主治理跟公民教育能夠成為推動社會前進的動力在大學學生自治組織裡面雖然有一部分是其他的政治體制但絕大多數都是採取直選會長這件事情也是我們繼高中之後在校園裡面人就能夠進行類似於縣市首長或總統投票選舉的行為"},{"start":5891.82,"end":5920.007,"text":"那在高中也是類似的情況但高中與大學有幾乎類似的不一樣的現象高中生其實沒有投票權對於政治的討論也有所不同但我想大家對於政治的這份想參與的熱忱是不變的那2022年的時候那個時候我只是一個高中生那我在新聞上面看到修憲公投送出立法院的那一天我開始想像自己在18歲的時候能夠投下人生中第一張選票的那一刻那我想跟我差不多年紀的人都有類似這樣子的想像然後現實是由於修憲的門檻高到幾乎實質使修憲廢除"},{"start":5922.307,"end":5944.439,"text":"即使有564萬張的同意票仍然距離門檻有一大截近年來我們開始思考需要落實18歲公民權究竟需不需要修憲憲法130條對於所謂國民年滿20歲者有依法選舉之權究竟是一個限制還是最低限度的保障那對於憲法130條有解釋空間可以修法來實現18歲公民權"},{"start":5947.66,"end":5970.869,"text":"從2011年耀元豪老師在內政部座談會初步提出後期間經歷2022年的修憲公投讓學界注意到這個議題那以及2024年的憲法學會的專題研討會許多學者都紛紛表態已經成為主流穩定的見解包含陳欣明前大法官、台大林明星、台大嚴絕安、政大林佳和、台大李念祖、中人林孟然"},{"start":5972.049,"end":5983.32,"text":"政大陳靜惠、世新謝碩俊等十幾位老師都持此見解就算再加上醫療會保留太多的老師仍然是明顯多數已經是公法學界主流穩定的見解"},{"start":5984.847,"end":6009.005,"text":"近年來,由於科技的進步,教育水準的上升,世界各國對於成年的定義逐步下調至18歲,除了可能對於身體造成危害,如煙酒等在各國有不同的限制之外,不論在刑事、民事、納稅以及最重要的選舉前,幾乎都設定在18歲。而台灣在逐步下調民事、稅務、金融等等的限制之後,也應該要配合其他義務的下調,讓18歲的青年能夠有相對應的權利。"},{"start":6010.68,"end":6033.12,"text":"在這樣子的基礎下究竟需不需要修憲我想也是今天最大的爭點但在這樣子的國際情勢以及環境公法學者們的見解與意見都一再告訴我們130條所謂的國民年滿20歲者有依法選舉之權應該要是基本權的保障而不是限制20歲以下的青年不得投票不論是為了使權利義務相符或是擴大青年參政我都認為應該也必須這麼做讓18歲公民權可以落地執行"},{"start":6036.943,"end":6049.652,"text":"我們也認為18歲的選舉權涉及兩部選罷法的部分只要修法就好在文獻的疑慮上面也有學術的支持而國際情勢也告訴我們18歲公民權是世界的趨勢是必須要做的一件事情"},{"start":6050.595,"end":6074.371,"text":"那我們也觀察到在大學校園裡面由於公民權尚且界定在20歲20歲以上的人有投票權20歲以下的人沒有投票權在校園的討論中大家對政治的想像跟理解就有一點不一樣例如說總統大學的時候我們觀察到有投票權的同學對於能夠投票這件事情是感到驕傲的對於民主這件事情是感到期待的也對總統大學是有所期待相對來說沒有投票權的同學在這方面就少了一點動機"},{"start":6075.692,"end":6096.98,"text":"那我們都知道人是需要動機去驅使才能夠有所進步才會對某件事情感到興趣那我們需要父權才能夠使青年對於公共事務對於政治更有動力18歲的青年對於公共事務對於政治的了解跟20歲的青年並沒有太大的差異而在這樣的前提下又有相對應的義務需要負責的情況下為什麼需要把限制設定在20歲呢"},{"start":6098.803,"end":6117.394,"text":"最後我想再次重申憲法130條應該是保障基本權而不是限制在憲法解釋上如果需要追溯到制憲者的原意那憲法作為一部根本大法將無法與時俱進需要經常修改如果能夠以語意來解釋讓國際趨勢權責相符的公民權下調至18歲也才是真正的明智之舉"},{"start":6118.414,"end":6147.148,"text":"三十年後的台灣社會答案就在今日的校園通過兩部選罷法的修法讓十八歲的青年學生能夠參與選舉參與共共事務是世界的趨勢也是台灣未來應該要朝向的方向同時為了要呼籲行政院跟立院朝野應該要呼應時代的趨勢也配合青年基本法在普遍認為和諧的情況下儘速完成兩部選罷法的三讀使權責相符讓2022年時五百六十四萬的民意能夠落實謝謝大家我是國立台北大學三大校區學生會會長陳玉文"},{"start":6156.636,"end":6158.696,"text":"好 我們下一位邀請陳耀祥助理教授"},{"start":6173.13,"end":6192.67,"text":"主席我們各位與會的學者專家各機關的代表大家早安首先感謝大會的邀請今天針對這個18歲公民權修法這個部分來表達個人的意見那其實前面已經發言很多我想有一些相同意見我就不再重複表達那"},{"start":6193.922,"end":6202.839,"text":"誠如剛才有很多的學徒專家或是我們青年的代表裡面所提到的那憲法我們第17條裡面就明文規定說人民有選舉罷免創知覆覺之權利"},{"start":6205.103,"end":6226.221,"text":"也就是說我們則參政權那為什麼憲法裡面會第12章特別針對選舉罷免創制復決呢又訂立一個制度的規定這是比較少人提到的那我查了一下這個我們中華民國的制憲史這裡有帶一個雷正先生當時所寫的這個政治協商會議憲法查裡面特別提到"},{"start":6227.342,"end":6234.106,"text":"其實我們在憲法裡面有一些關於這個年紀或是有一些數字的設計比如說我們憲法第8條有24小時的規定那我們憲法第45條關於總統副總統選舉人的年齡的基本的門檻有40歲的規定"},{"start":6244.991,"end":6266.659,"text":"或是包括我們130條各位都知道129條到136條這個是特別針對選舉這個部分這個部分是在憲法所謂的修正原則的第10點裡面提到這個議題簡單來講他就是要把這個部分寫清楚那為什麼要寫清楚比如說他寫清楚包括除了選舉權20歲被選舉權23歲來講的話"},{"start":6271.328,"end":6294.568,"text":"那主要是當時政黨之間彼此不信任就是說原來在國民黨所提的五五憲潮裡面來講的話被選舉選是25歲可是那為什麼這些民主黨派包括社民黨或者是包括青年黨代表認為國民黨原來這種所謂的國民大會所謂權能區分制度這種間接民權並不符合民主的潮流"},{"start":6295.248,"end":6307.419,"text":"所以他們引用西方的這種憲政民主議會民主的方式要求這個所謂的直接民主選舉所以特別針對選舉這個制度在憲法第12章裡面有這個特別的規定"},{"start":6308.493,"end":6328.147,"text":"那前面剛剛有學者也提到的確當時來講為什麼是20歲是因為跟成年是結合在一起的所以成年人來講的話他也有已經有開始所謂的自己的完全的行為能力所以他也可以參與公共事務是這樣結合在一起的可是為什麼把20歲寫清楚"},{"start":6328.747,"end":6356.937,"text":"就是怕20歲如果沒有寫清楚來講的話就像我們憲法第8條的24小時總統的40歲的這個規定來講擔心了當時的執政黨萬一透過修法來講又把這個東西做更動所以當時來講的話他致謝所有他的時空背景所以20歲我覺得會什麼會寫清楚這個部分比較少提到那我們目前大家碰到這個議題是我剛才所講是80年前的這種時空的狀況"},{"start":6358.31,"end":6378,"text":"比如說我個人來講 我當然贊成這個選舉的投票的年齡下修為18歲 這是我贊成的甚至以公民的選舉的 公民的各種所謂的權利來講的話應該讓青年人有參與這個我們公共政策參與整個國家決策的機會跟制度 這個我是絕對贊成的"},{"start":6380.141,"end":6407.935,"text":"這個涉及到我們所講叫世代爭議的議題其實我們今天在談18歲公民權其實不是只是單純選舉的問題而已還包括各種世代爭議的議題我認為來講的話在這個蘇維時代裡面讓年輕人更早參與整個公共政策尤其選舉之後是贊成可是我們現在面對的困境是說我們在2020年舉行過修憲的公投沒過那今天要用修法的方式來處理要怎麼去處理這個議題我個人看法"},{"start":6408.815,"end":6421.356,"text":"今天來講的話的確修法會有在整個有沒有違憲有沒有合憲性的疑慮的問題那是不是當然違憲呢這個當然我們有個人見仁見智但是我有一個想法一個建議"},{"start":6423.976,"end":6439.625,"text":"立法院如果要修改這個選罷法把它下調為18歲來講的話我認為唯一目前來講比較可行的方法是透過申請制限的方法去處理這個問題因為有一個非常重要的點就是說當時我們在制限的時候"},{"start":6441.115,"end":6462.82,"text":"是把這個所謂行使這個所謂選舉罷免創制複決的年齡是跟成年是掛鉤在一起的那現在呢成年的年紀下降了那憲法這個20歲來講的話從目的解釋上來講是不是有可能下降為18歲唯一有這種方法來講的話透過大法官解釋呢"},{"start":6463.42,"end":6481.795,"text":"或許是有一條可能的活路我覺得目前來講因為以我們2005年修憲以後來講整個修憲的程序基本上是被凍結了當然因為我們台灣也不可否認我們對國家認同有不同的重大的歧義所以修憲的門檻是非常高的"},{"start":6482.515,"end":6502.408,"text":"那所以我這裡也跟我們這很多年輕人有些在推動NGO這種所謂的青年活動的青年代表們建議就是說我們對話的對象不是只有青年人而且是各個世代的人 各個年紀的人然後一個非常重要的議題是說當我們在處理這個議題的時候來講的話"},{"start":6505.141,"end":6533.253,"text":"不是只是所謂選舉權應該更擴大那當然大院如果要修改這個所謂相關的選罷法把它擴大降低為18歲也一定會面臨到我個人認為會面臨到這個所謂有沒有違憲的這個挑戰那這個時候呢我認為讓大法官就我們這個憲法的這個部分表示意見這是將來可惜的一個方法因為我們的憲法解釋裡面來講話除了文藝解釋以外另外一個就是所謂的"},{"start":6533.686,"end":6559.852,"text":"目的解釋或是歷史解釋那我剛才所談的部分來講主要是從我們歷史在制限過程裡面為什麼20歲會寫得這麼清楚那就是因為當時制限者彼此之間認為不是那麼的互信那麼高把它寫清楚大家比較不會未來來講的話可能透過修法去把它動到這個部分那當時的預想剛好跟我們現在的想像剛好是顛倒的"},{"start":6561.272,"end":6585.307,"text":"我現在想像反而是說透過修法讓他更有彈性所以未來不管是說我們再繼續推動修憲也好或是大院再透過修法也好我是建議的不一定要把它寫成20歲或是18歲只要是成年就可以去連結這反而是符合我們憲法的本質因為誰知道我們現在成年是18歲這樣成年搞不好16歲就成年了"},{"start":6586.067,"end":6608.884,"text":"那與其這樣子每年為了這種18歲20歲16歲這種東西來講反而從目的上解釋說青年他是成年了成年除了可以對自己的行為負責作為一個公民可以所謂自我自己的私人的權利義務以外他已經成熟到可以參與公共政策我覺得把他跟成年扣合在一起"},{"start":6609.504,"end":6620.811,"text":"這也符合制憲者當時制憲的目的也符合現在全世界對於青年參政的潮流以上個人的淺見 敬請陳卓參我們下一位請陳育進會長發言"},{"start":6645.448,"end":6668.176,"text":"感謝教委各位先進各位與會代表大家早安我是政大學生會長陳玉靜蒙前述各位諸位前輩的啟發我個人也受益良多也容我在此基礎上都能提出兩項淺薄的個人觀察第一個想要討論的是公民能力的形成機制作為目前大學學生會長想優先強調的是無可辯駁的"},{"start":6669.116,"end":6688.868,"text":"現在大學部的學生就是一半落在18至19歲的區間另一半落在20到21歲這個區間這樣那又使然上其實我們可以看到無論從課堂到課室外廣義上的政治參與及實踐上這一半的學生也已經具備足夠的知識能力且他們有不遜於大學部高年級學生的參與動能"},{"start":6690.089,"end":6709.046,"text":"除此之外縱觀而言就是今天可以看到反對降低投票年齡的理由比較大宗是擔心18歲青年他們是否具備足夠判斷能力當然這樣的質疑本身無疑是預設了就是青年的判斷力將自然而然隨年齡增長然而回扣我們對於民主制度的期待和想像"},{"start":6709.666,"end":6731.572,"text":"應該也理應包含提供一個透過實踐培養政治判斷的場域舉凡投票、辯論、資訊查證還有問責的能力都難以在隔離的環境中習得這因為伴隨後果的這個真實選舉的結果會實際影響權力的分配、決定政策的走向作為參與者因而會更有動機去權衡利弊"},{"start":6732.632,"end":6753.761,"text":"來為自己的判斷負責這種基於對後果有所體認而產生的意識是我認為從其他管道上根本上無法複製跟取代的一級如果我們今天將同票權設定在20歲的話其實實在的在源頭限制了18歲到19歲這群青年培養就是相應能力的可能"},{"start":6754.301,"end":6769.694,"text":"因為公民能力也不會在20歲的生日前夜理所當然的降臨他可能更需要在真實的選舉過程中逐步的積累所以在此推遲參與無異於是在從源頭限制了公民能力的形成"},{"start":6770.374,"end":6797.027,"text":"那第二個想要討論的是就是涉及這個民主制度的基本原則就是在前面的討論脈絡中也經常被提及的權利和義務應該相符這件事情那檢視我國盛行的法律規範大致刑法到更生活層面的道路安全規範我們都可以看到對18歲以上的青年已經賦予了更多的義務跟期待包含期待他們可以為自身的財務紀律那大到人生大事全權的負責"},{"start":6798.007,"end":6818.681,"text":"也認可他們有能力可以進入公家機關為民服務但比較吊詭的是同樣是這一群十八、十九歲的青年卻被排除在大選的選舉之外正如柯智恩委員跟陳吉威委員在提案說明中所提到的已然產生了自使權利與義務顯不相當有責任但無權利之不對稱之情形"},{"start":6819.562,"end":6847.665,"text":"進一步而言在涉及重大政策比如高校資源分配兵役制度和防世政策這些影響期間可以自這群青年正在經歷的此時此刻延伸到十至二十年後的將來的時候作為深受影響的群體這些政策被審議被表決和執行的過程中卻難以發揮直接影響力所以我認為在從民主問責的角度來看這樣的制度安排顯然是有可以進一步討論檢討跟調整的空間的"},{"start":6849.746,"end":6869.705,"text":"眾上所述大方向向個人非常支持將投票年齡調整至18歲這除了是對於制度能夠持續保持靈活度能夠不排除滾動式調整的可能性的期待之外也是我認為在民主實踐中能夠為青年逐步培養判斷與承擔能力的一個參與起點 謝謝"},{"start":6878.663,"end":6882.586,"text":"我們下一位邀請鍾嘉賓委員發言 那麼委員發言時間為5分鐘謝謝主席 今天能夠看到18歲公民權修法進入公聽會而且這個公聽會有諸多的青年學子來代表發言我想非常的於肯定那也看到過去熟悉的學者專家也在這個議題上"},{"start":6907.143,"end":6922.942,"text":"有或許意見不盡相同但是用心都是一樣可貴那我想作為立法院的委員我們來回顧一下在18歲公民權這個議題從我1996年進入國民大會擔任第三屆國大代表以來就在爭取這個"},{"start":6925.29,"end":6952.353,"text":"公民的參政權能夠符合社會的需要調到18歲但是一晃眼30年過去了所以我們在看到底18歲公民權在現在跟當年有什麼差別其實我們可以討論到18歲公民權剛聽了幾位年輕年代表的意見大概有一個從實然上現在18歲的年輕人在很多國家都是"},{"start":6953.194,"end":6971.842,"text":"可以具有完整的權利行使而我們在民法修改後呢他們也必須要負責成年人的責任那因此在這樣的說明當中認為不管是從世界各國的比較還是就我們法律當中相關的規定似乎18歲已成年那麼是不是成年就應該付給公民權尤其是"},{"start":6973.363,"end":6995.48,"text":"選舉權我想這是一個主流的論述那當然我們看到憲法當中有從法理上 英藍上我們怎麼去解釋憲法明文的規定國民年滿20歲依法有選舉權那這樣的規定到底是不是限制了我們在思考這個法律上英藍上怎麼去改變的問題過去在策略上我們也選擇了透過修憲"},{"start":6997.882,"end":7014.244,"text":"所以現在雖然有成案而且是三黨當時的朝野各政黨一致同意成案成案後送交公民投票但是沒有通過那沒有通過是代表什麼呢是代表國民意志整個國家的國民意志反對這個事情"},{"start":7015.703,"end":7038.38,"text":"是這樣嗎?如果修憲沒有過的案子是不是代表的就在國民意志上被否決或推翻呢?好像也沒辦法這樣說只是說未達到修憲的門檻以至於不能完成修憲但不意味著是透過這樣的修憲過程當中否決了18歲公民權它的一個實然上可以爭取的空間所以我是覺得呢首先先認定"},{"start":7039.181,"end":7056.682,"text":"修憲不成不代表國民反對這個意見這一點恐怕是要先確定的但是在這個同時我們也發現了一些有趣的地方譬如說青年基本法立法院在去年青年基本法當中呢就把條文明明白白的寫進去18歲政府要保障青年的參政權"},{"start":7058.024,"end":7082.417,"text":"糟糕了 青年基本法它不是一個強制性的法律它有宣示性的效果 這樣叫基本法嘛但是這個基本法可以去含涉要求選罷法做相對應的修改嗎恐怕中選委也好 內政委也好 他們也沒有辦法從政得出的結論而且我看今天的多數意見還是表達說並沒有對於18歲可不可以有公民"},{"start":7083.197,"end":7094.428,"text":"可以有選舉權有做出可否的意見表示但是都提到憲法現行的規定似乎限制了我們行政機關在對賦予18歲公民選舉權做一個積極的表態所以呢我們就不禁要問了如果從法理上來講那麼"},{"start":7103.058,"end":7119.737,"text":"國會的意識已經明白的表示青年基本法政府應該保障18歲青年的參政權那憲法又還沒有辦法修憲通過那到底其他的法律可不可以改我們可以從一些各些國家的經驗來思考比如說"},{"start":7120.878,"end":7125.642,"text":"在民法那時候從20歲還沒有下車到18歲之前也發生過類似的問題譬如說我那時候就曾經為了這個探討成年的定義我說如果按照我們的攤商管理辦法你要滿20歲成年才可以去跟地方政府申請在市場擺攤但是如果你沒有申請在擺攤警察會不會來取締"},{"start":7142.415,"end":7148.324,"text":"但是你知道嗎 來取締的警察 他要執行公權力18歲考入 如果當年警校是兩年的時候他有可能20歲不到 他就來當警察他就來取締你這個沒有辦法取得攤商證照的這個年輕人"},{"start":7157.478,"end":7178.245,"text":"一個未滿20歲的警察來取締一個未滿20歲沒有辦法取得攤商證照的這個事情不是很荒謬嗎所以我們要一般上去思考譬如說飲酒的年齡譬如說考駕照的年齡那這些都在很多民主國家在思考的時候似乎都會先抓一條線就是成年這個是一個基準線"},{"start":7179.185,"end":7203.02,"text":"什麼年齡我們可以往上調譬如說在有些國家成年人不能抽菸你要超過成年的年齡一定年齡後他認為延緩你受到菸毒強害的時間所以不見得成年就代表什麼事都可以做而這個基準線這個基準線那裡之後我們來討論哪些行為必須超過這個基準線才能賦予哪些低於這個基準線才可以賦予所以有些國家沒有成年人16歲就可以考駕照"},{"start":7204.261,"end":7225.461,"text":"所以因此我們在思考成年這個定義的時候它會不會是一個基準線如果我們國家對於成年的基準線已經拉到18歲那我們可以好好來的探討18歲除了成年同時有哪些事情他還不能做要延後有哪些事情他可以提早做還有哪些事情他同時可以做但是如果我們立法院有這樣的討論之後那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":7226.604,"end":7230.609,"text":"如果會不會發生一樣新年基本法我們也通過了我們陸續修了選罷法結果我們就規定滿18歲可以有依法就可以選舉權那這問題掉到誰那裡憲法法庭嘛"},{"start":7239.232,"end":7264.022,"text":"所以到底我們的修法有沒有辦法去追溯原憲法立憲者的原意這有很多討論剛剛姚老師也提到了原來的這個被選舉權23歲依憲法附法律令委規定之外年滿23歲有被選舉權因為憲法本身就有提到總統要實施才能被選舉所以他有這樣的一個規定所以當這樣的一個情況我們來自己局限的時候是不是我們可以大人的說那好"},{"start":7264.562,"end":7290.718,"text":"那現在我們也沒辦法去推究立憲者的原意我們憲法修憲也沒辦法得到全民達到門檻的共識那如果我們透過立法的手段像立青年基本法這樣立了之後那麼如果有人對於說這個有抵觸憲法之餘請大法官憲法法庭來審理那最後因為憲法法庭的決定就視同有修憲的效力那這是不是一條另外一條路呢公聽會不見得有答案但是公聽會可以提出問題請提出這個問題的方向我們共同來思考 謝謝"},{"start":7300.387,"end":7313.107,"text":"好 我們下一位邀請何潔恩發起人發言好 辛苦的廖召偉然後在場的嘉賓委員"},{"start":7314.281,"end":7336.532,"text":"列席的長官、團體夥伴、律師先進還有老師們好我是青年思潮的發起人傑恩現在也是政大反應所的學生青年思潮是從去年底開始由許多卸任的大學學生會長成立的青年組織我們關心18到27歲的青年在我國內政性議題上的權益也就包含今天所討論的18歲公民權或是最近也麻煩了內政部不少的兵役體位的修正"},{"start":7336.952,"end":7351.545,"text":"居住正義 結社權 人本交通等等所以要再次的感謝昭偉身為青壯世代的立委在內政委員會持續的關心年輕人在意的題目對18歲公益權入選辦法已經安排了巡達公聽會要來晚輩立法的程序"},{"start":7352.225,"end":7370.227,"text":"那剛剛與會的老師律師還有教育委員已經對18歲公民權直接修法不修憲的合憲性提供很豐富的支持論述我想在這樣的基礎上在根據學界的意見還有中整憲法解釋的方法來聚焦兩件事第一件事憲法法庭"},{"start":7371.588,"end":7398.548,"text":"在沒有解釋之前我們其實是可以根據憲法解釋方法由立法者來做出一些解釋的那麼憲法130條解釋上有沒有空間可以修法即可在2011年我母校的廉仁豪老師初步提出時確實可能是少數學者的主張但是到了2026年經歷了15年期間經歷了2022年的修憲公投讓公法學界都注意到這個議題以及2024年公法學會所召開的18歲公民權的專題研討會"},{"start":7400.769,"end":7416.724,"text":"不分政治傾向不分老中青的公法學者都普遍表達支持目前已經累積了十幾位的公法學者表態形成公法學界的主流穩定見解除了我自己曾在幾位老師的課堂上聽過這題目甚至是2023年台大公法組的考題"},{"start":7417.524,"end":7443.197,"text":"所以對於年輕的法律人而言公法學界主流晚進認為有修法空間其實是再自然不過的認知而非少數學者或團體的冒進建議而且剛剛何衛慈律師也已經說明去年也有持此立場的法院實務見解出現對法律人而言學說還有實務的見解是同樣重要的目前學說多數還有實務已經趨於一致18歲公民權有修法空間的結論其實相當明確"},{"start":7444.758,"end":7461.788,"text":"第二今天的提綱問憲法130條應該要採取保障說來授權立法者修法即可還是要採取限制說而沒有立法者的行程空間必須要修憲需要指出的是從憲法文藝上來看或是從史料來看我們都無法得知制憲者究竟是"},{"start":7462.328,"end":7482.252,"text":"採取哪一說因此哪一說絕對正確或絕對錯誤但是今天專家學者的討論其實也沒有聚焦在這裡分歧點仍然在於現在我們要再解釋憲法的時候是否可以根據歷史解釋的方法基於制憲者的原意而得出憲法限制20歲不可以投票的結論那我想答案是否定的"},{"start":7482.732,"end":7508.37,"text":"首先需要指出一切的前提仍然是憲法130條的寫法在文藝解釋上確實留下了空間如果制限者要寫死的話他應該要寫20歲始開始的始20歲始有選舉權但是制限者只寫了20歲有選舉權這不等於20歲以下沒有選舉權這是一個很基本的邏輯問題在法學上這個是理念組老師不斷提醒的不能夠理所當然的反面解釋的問題"},{"start":7509.37,"end":7536.059,"text":"基於這樣的文藝空間就算要採取歷史解釋我們也需要看制憲者的真實意思如果回顧史料我們就會發現制憲過程中制憲者幾乎沒有在討論投票年齡他們比較聚焦在被選舉的年齡其實就是因為對制憲者而言投票年齡很單純就是要綁定民法的成年年齡林莫南老師就指出憲法130條是跟他一樣流日的張志本先生所寫制憲當時日本的學說就認為投票年齡應該要綁定民法的成年年齡"},{"start":7536.793,"end":7560.723,"text":"張之本先生恐怕就是受到這個的影響而寫出了20歲這樣的規定這樣的推測當然要小心的求證已經被政協的秘書長雷正先生的第一手史料給證實這也是剛剛陳浩翔老師聚焦的政協會議在民國35年1月召開是同一年的11月立法院正式的提出中華民國憲法草案之前最後一關的實質討論所以這場會議支線者如何討論是非常重要的"},{"start":7564.364,"end":7586.68,"text":"那最能夠還原制憲者的意思也是這場會議那剛剛曹小老師拿出了跟我一樣的書在雷震先生所寫的中華民國制憲史政治協商會議憲法草案中關於選舉的章節已經有很明確的說明他說在政協草案中選舉權的規定就是基於民法的規定制憲者認為成年人已經有行為能力的就自然應該擁有選舉權任何人都不能夠剝奪"},{"start":7590.615,"end":7611.084,"text":"至於如果有一天民法成年年齡像今天一樣被降低了那麼選舉年齡到底應該要修法還是要修憲在文藝上憲法130條其實是寫有依法選舉權所以他其實可能是傾向在憲法的規定以外如果要對選舉的資格做一些補充其實是要透過法律的那從史料上來看"},{"start":7611.724,"end":7637.977,"text":"我們看不出來制限者恐怕就是沒有任何的預料也因此沒有任何的表態這時候我們也就需要考量所謂活的憲法憲法本來就具有原則性高的穩定性還有開放性因此如果在憲法許可的範圍之內在制限者沒有設想的部分本來就可以透過立法和解釋讓憲法的內涵與時俱進而非僵化的解釋憲法或非修憲明確化不可例如婚姻一男一女基於制限者原意"},{"start":7638.437,"end":7645.142,"text":"就沒有辦法動了那同性婚姻就沒有辦法承認了憲法11條保障的言論自由也沒有辦法擴及到電視和網絡但我想憲法內還現在都已經與時俱進了"},{"start":7649.017,"end":7669.279,"text":"從史料來看有一件事情非常確定就是制限者的原意是有行為能力就有投票權所以如果要採取歷史解釋綁定民法的成年年齡會比起20歲更接近制限者的原意同時因為憲法文藝制限者原意上都沒有鎖死20歲留下了解釋空間這時候就需要綜合其他的憲法解釋方法來綜合判斷"},{"start":7670.1,"end":7697.095,"text":"在這裡就必須指出無論是我國或是其他國家的憲法法院歷來憲法解釋上都不獨尊歷史解釋反而歷史解釋往往只是參考事實上釋字392號也已經明確指出解釋憲法時制憲的史料或背景應該要謹慎使用避免流於獨斷字義所以仍然需要回歸文藝的範圍看看憲法的目的上是要保障成年人民的參政權是否可以被加以實現整體法律體系上人民何時被評價為成熟可以獨立行為的"},{"start":7697.916,"end":7701.059,"text":"從這些角度來看都會得出以法律下修選舉年齡到18歲不違背憲法的結論"},{"start":7704.301,"end":7733.087,"text":"所以如果依法市格的申請人認為違憲向憲法法庭提出審查從各種法律解釋方法來看修法實現18歲公民權應能經受得起合憲性的審查不必過度擔心在發言的最後我也希望對公聽會做一些收攏武漢開場發言的何衛慈律師林彥廷學長鄭明陽學長在去年11月有一篇刊登在報導者的投書18歲公民權修憲未成功透過修法也可以嗎我們當時寫保障說限制說在學界政界各有支持沒有定論"},{"start":7733.687,"end":7756.498,"text":"但在今天的公聽會中我們其實可以知道多數的專家學者或是不在場專家學者其實都很認同憲法保有修法到18歲的彈性反而是修法必然違憲的立論並不穩固這半年間不分政黨的立委也都已經表達支持18歲公民權入選罷法比起去年清雞法三讀時這半年已經又再往前了一步共識更大討論的也已經非常清楚"},{"start":7757.178,"end":7774.17,"text":"條件已經趨於成熟是時候可以往下推進透過修法來實現18歲公民權所以我也呼應其他代表具體建議投票年齡降低的修正案性質單純目前也有跨黨派的提案甚至已經完成各樣的立法的程序希望立法院能夠就此盡速的審查二三讀通過"},{"start":7774.91,"end":7792.527,"text":"也期望行政院能夠共同提案支持優先把憲法17條賦予人民的選舉和罷免權還給18到20歲的青年至於被選舉的年齡屬於憲法18條廣義參政權的內涵立院、政院可以在凝聚共識正式提案之後我們再另外討論處理謝謝大家,我是青年思潮的杰恩"},{"start":7800.831,"end":7804.262,"text":"我們下一位邀請陳庭楚工農發起人發言"},{"start":7822.705,"end":7836.755,"text":"主席在場各位的夥伴大家好我是台灣新文化青年協會共同發起人陳庭楚首先我要在這邊先講結論我們是支持以修法的方式來落實18歲公民權的"},{"start":7839.096,"end":7858.074,"text":"其實2022年我和在場的很多這個青年夥伴一樣我們都站在街頭目標就是為了要推動18歲公民權的修憲18歲公民權投同意這句話在當時是一件遙不可及的事情但是到了今天呢我們終於有辦法進入實質的修法討論"},{"start":7859.395,"end":7879.802,"text":"放眼全世界在230多個國家當中很少國家是用20歲以上才能投票的這個制度在實行的其中一個就是我們台灣我想今天在座很多的在家學者都已經針對法律見解都已經有各自不同的表述那我今天就以一個個人實際生活在這個制度底下的青年來談這個問題"},{"start":7882.903,"end":7907.26,"text":"我是一個工程人也是一個青年我是從事建築工作我來自一個單親家庭我由父親跟祖父母扶養長大其實我成長過程很單純我跟多數人一樣我只在乎吃飽穿亂功課有沒有寫完在我高中的時候我同學很多都是理工人所以我們日常都被技術還有功課追著跑很少對公共事務有議題有關注的"},{"start":7909.574,"end":7932.69,"text":"但是當我開始要去關注政治議題或者是討論公共議題的時候我很難獲得我收招新年同學的支持或者共鳴甚至我會被當成異類這讓我當時也開始思考我們現在資訊如此的發達而且台灣是一個民主化成熟的國家到底為什麼我收招的同學都對政治冷感"},{"start":7933.786,"end":7955.736,"text":"於是我大學進入了公共事務的參與我擔任學生會會長但是當我進入公共事務的時候我發現我們學校對於學生自治的投票率都只有10%而已這代表說當我們的權利義務不相符我們就沒有辦法去影響到年輕人的動機沒有辦法影響到周遭人他們的動機了"},{"start":7957.236,"end":7972.335,"text":"那開頭所講的2022年我19歲的時候正值地方選舉跟18歲公民權的修憲公投我原本以為我自己可以參加但是直到我沒有收到投票通知帶的那一刻起我才知道說原來我是沒有辦法投票的"},{"start":7972.967,"end":7986.787,"text":"那當時我就覺得說難道18、19歲這個年齡層能不能要投票都要大連來幫我們決定嗎難道說18、19歲這個年齡層就是次等公民嗎"},{"start":7988.457,"end":8006.753,"text":"創新其實是一件很重要的事情它關乎著一個國家的競爭力也能讓國家更有未來跟希望的感覺國家不斷的創新在於有沒有新年的政策跟新年的想法挹注到公共議題當中如果投票權跟參政權都被多數的中老年人把持年輕人不投票那我們國家只會越來越保守"},{"start":8008.149,"end":8019.306,"text":"為什麼到選舉的時候總是會出現政策上面的世代落差為什麼政黨的候選人到最後都會變成政策買票要去鞏固他的基本盤而不是去積極的論述一些政策"},{"start":8020.492,"end":8044.021,"text":"我們很常看到就是說從楊敬老金到選舉最後他就是一個討論的重點為什麼因為他有錢他可以去影響到有權投票的人為什麼老王今天他要上漲到超過一萬元因為他有辦法去影響到選民有辦法影響到有投票權的選民啊所以每次的選舉就一直加碼加碼再加碼加到好像綜藝大集合一樣不知道到底在選舉還是綜藝節目"},{"start":8046.042,"end":8073.866,"text":"所以18歲這個年齡層的青年比較有可能碰到的選舉考招制度和手機管理制度或者是最近吵得很兇的學習歷程檔案其實都到選舉最後不會被討論他們不是因為這個議題不重要是因為這個議題它影響到了年齡層他是沒有投票權的所以政治人物往往到最後就是忽視他們了那把這些社會資源都重視在比較富有的長者而去剝削這些年輕人"},{"start":8074.786,"end":8096.371,"text":"這對我們台灣社會是一件好事嗎從各項的民意調查數據統計當中都能夠得知65歲以上的年長者其實他們都已經有固定的政黨基本上就在光譜的兩極或者他們也很容易被政策買票所影響今天很多人在質疑說18歲能不能投票他有沒有成熟思考能力"},{"start":8097.091,"end":8111.527,"text":"那我們是不是也要去質疑說65歲甚至80歲以上的長者他們的思想固化固定的政黨傾向他們其實也不具備足夠的思考能力可以去投票那我們台灣的有資格投票的人是不是要降低到剩下二分之以下"},{"start":8113.052,"end":8129.46,"text":"法律社會已經定義說18歲他是一個完全行為能力人了已經要盡他們該盡的義務了但是他卻不能為自己所支持的政策去選擇這是一個權利義務的不對等再說一次難道18、19歲這個年齡層的人他就是四等公民嗎"},{"start":8131.089,"end":8153.03,"text":"今天的公聽會剛剛大家應該或許或多或少有一些共識我們可以透過修法來去落實18歲公民權剛剛有學者說要再回到修憲那青年基本法已經通過說18歲就是要有投票權那這個要不要也去修憲要不要也去釋憲內政部所提出來的這個公聽會報告也說要去釋憲"},{"start":8154.051,"end":8168.138,"text":"那我就覺得很奇怪那我們今天討論這個修法公聽會到底是要到底是要以選罷法來落實這個18歲公民權還是還是其實我們只是走個形式要去解釋憲法還是要回到修憲委員會那我們這樣子討論其實根本沒有意義"},{"start":8169.398,"end":8193.836,"text":"對我們這個世代來講真正重要的其實不是程序的結果而是18歲的青年朋友到底能不能決定這個社會要走向什麼樣的未來如果什麼法案遇到爭議連18歲公民權眾藍綠白都支持的法案都有爭議都要憲法法庭的話那我們的行政跟立法院其實也可以廢除我們就以後都用憲法法庭來制定法律就好啦所以"},{"start":8194.827,"end":8220.032,"text":"一個已經被要求承擔責任的世代他不應該被排除在政策或是政治的選擇之外如果我們都認同說18歲他其實是具備獨立思考的能力如果我們也都可以理解我們不是什麼事情都一定要由大人來幫我們決定那今天的公聽會其實很明顯我們應該都是要支持這個修法就是要用修法的方式來落實18歲公民權的"},{"start":8222.281,"end":8238.515,"text":"不要再讓18歲的青年朋友被剝削做次等公民請大家一起來支持這一次的18歲公民權修法我是台灣青年台灣新文化青年協會的共同發起人陳鼎楚我支持18歲公民權修法 謝謝好 我們下一位要請詹雅琳委員發言我們委員發言時間5分鐘"},{"start":8254.026,"end":8271.678,"text":"好 謝謝主席好 那我先剛剛聽到那個前面陳庭楚發起人的一個對於公聽會的一個疑問就是我們今天為什麼辦公聽會那我先說明一下我的立場所以我是在我基本上在青年基本法第20條裡面我也自己就寫得非常清楚那我也提出了相關的修法版本"},{"start":8272.538,"end":8296.46,"text":"那為什麼我還是會認為之前我在質詢的時候還是希望主席可以來召開這個公聽會喔最主要就是說因為其實這個民間的學者最近年來我們已經看到很多的學者提出來認為說其實不需要透過修憲喔包含林彥祖老師、林佳和老師、胡柏諺老師、嚴絕恩老師、林明熙等等的學者都認為其實是可以透過選罷法但是也還是有一些憲法學者提出了不同的看法"},{"start":8296.92,"end":8316.068,"text":"所以這就是為什麼我們今天需要透過公聽會來凝聚大家更多的共識因為我想畢竟這個想法上面大家也許可以透過討論可以有更多的啟發也許我們可以凝聚更多的共識之後我們就可以推動這個相關的選罷法的部分"},{"start":8317.148,"end":8345.674,"text":"那我想我的立場其實非常簡單為什麼我會在選報方面提出這件事情基本上我也是支持18歲就應該要有投票權想有最完整的公民權為什麼呢因為其實18歲的學生年輕人來說他們已經承擔了太多的責任了他們已經要負刑事責任要納稅甚至男性已經要服兵役了等於國家已經認為他可以承擔責任了可是在決定投票的時候卻剝奪他的權利"},{"start":8347.174,"end":8358.463,"text":"卻不能夠決定國家的方向我認為這是完全非常荒謬的一件事情那特別是說我們來看許多國家的國際的一個民主國家包含美國、英國、日本"},{"start":8359.772,"end":8379.458,"text":"韓國德國他們的投票年紀都已經是18歲了可是台灣卻還是20歲我認為我們這個我們一直講我們是這個年輕的民主國家但是我們的這個體制上面似乎還是相對落後所以我覺得這是一個關鍵的問題我們到底要不要跟上世界"},{"start":8380.278,"end":8393.005,"text":"那更重要的是我也非常認同前面發起人講的就是說這是個世代正義的問題啊因為今天不管是教育制度也好房價問題也好勞動政策等等等等其實受影響最深的就是這些年輕人"},{"start":8394.71,"end":8415.755,"text":"接下來國家的人口老化要承擔所有的經濟發展勞動力的還有未來的長照等等的社會福利的稅收都是這些年輕人可是這些年輕人沒有投票權我認為受影響的人卻沒有辦法參與決策這是非常不公平的一件事情"},{"start":8417.284,"end":8438.771,"text":"特別是說2022年的修憲案我們也非常清楚的從結果看到18歲公民權的同意票是多於不同意票的所以其實並不是人民反對啦而是相對的一個修憲門檻可能真的是太高了所以我們是不是能夠在現行的法治狀況之下前進一步呢"},{"start":8440.792,"end":8450.48,"text":"我也認為就是說憲法的確是有一些限制但是憲法是不是也可以被解釋例如第130條也可以被理解成至少在20月稅前要給予投票權"},{"start":8457.626,"end":8485.669,"text":"所以他也可以提早給啊對不對那他也是其實就是在擴張他的基本權利嘛所以我認為憲法的解釋不應該只有停留在當年的歷史背景而應該要透過歷史體系還有目的來做一個整體的判斷所以我想今天的這個討論我這邊應該是做一個發言了嘛我想大家應該都有今天都有充分的表達那我的立場還是最重要的一件事情就是18歲公民權不是給我們的年輕人特權"},{"start":8486.73,"end":8493.992,"text":"而是當國家要求他負起責任的時候也應該要給他的權相對的權利這才是一個全責相當的制度 謝謝好 登記發言的專家學者委員肉依發言完畢請問我們的內政部中學會法務部有機關回應說明內政部請問我們吳政次"},{"start":8521.266,"end":8538.964,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位學者那這邊有兩點那第一個還是非常感謝今天所有出席的委員還有我們的各位學者專家的發言那有關18歲公民權的相關建議如果立院這邊有具修憲及修法共識我們內政部會員者來尊重"},{"start":8539.685,"end":8558.179,"text":"那第二點那就是有關被選舉權的年齡那是不是要調降及如何調降的問題那剛剛也聽到各位學者的一些相關的意見那這個部分還是要在審酌我們各民選公使人員的部分因為相關的職位還有層級職責那我們建議也可以參酌各方的意見來再跟續辦理以上請問中選委有要回應嗎沒有好其他機關"},{"start":8569.363,"end":8575,"text":"沒有 那請問各位與會的專家學者有要二輪發言的有補充發言嗎"},{"start":8576.593,"end":8599.035,"text":"如果沒有的話那就感謝各位專家學者提供保衛意見所有初列席人員的發言與提供的書面資料除刊登公報之外我們會另外製作公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及所有初列席人員參考再次感謝大家各位的參與謝謝大家今天的公聽會到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"168715","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168715","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f15496abc7e570e3f363685f3e6e8cff854f2050ed7b2b649bff2541df1b7df3cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"10:45:55 - 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謝謝主席有請陳珠瑋請陳珠瑋"},{"start":21.763,"end":45.08,"text":"謝謝我們最專業的主委這個河岸會這次專報為了我國海域放射性物質監測執行現況以及未來因應的作為本席看了一下過去的相關記錄從結果來看索性都在可以控制的範圍裡面沒有嚴重超標的情況然而在檢測的次數跟預算上本席是有一些疑問"},{"start":46.541,"end":71.443,"text":"這張圖表是近年這個生物實驗室的這個檢測量以及預決算數可以看到這三年檢測的件數跟花費的金額以國研院的數據來看可以看到這三年檢測的件數大概是六七百件前兩年平均大概是690那今年的目標呢756件只多了66件9.5%的增加跟平均比起來"},{"start":72.023,"end":97.066,"text":"但前兩年的預算平均下來每年是652萬那今年呢卻大幅增加到1424萬是218%的提升足足兩倍有餘所以只多檢測了9.5%相對於平均可是呢預算卻增加了兩倍218%本席不是反對要增加檢測的預算但是河南會如果評估今年的風險特別高"},{"start":97.466,"end":119.092,"text":"要增加次數當然沒問題但現在的情況看起來會讓人有點不是很確定說事情沒有多做那麼多但是錢卻多拿那麼多想請問一下主委今年這樣子的預算大幅增加減身目標值卻比去年只平均增加一滴滴到底是什麼原因這方面我們請張組長回答是 簡短回答好"},{"start":121.033,"end":136.456,"text":"觀光委員因為生物穿我們是採兩個階段因為穿的性質它會有無積穿跟有積穿那兩個的一個檢測方法是不一樣的那我們現在是為了檢測的實效性所以我們第一階段是用檢測無積穿如果無積穿有異常的我們就會進一步檢測那因為整個來講"},{"start":143.698,"end":165.134,"text":"有那個有機穿的只有在國園院所以國園院的一個預算會比較多但是增加了幾件有機穿的部分增加了幾件目前我們的有機穿過去多少件然後現在增加了多少件量倍嗎應該是說過去我們的一個檢測無機穿大概都是在標準的一個範圍您是說哪一個比較高"},{"start":167.155,"end":182.591,"text":"無積穿是第一階段比較好測有積穿的價格比較高所以我現在問的是有積穿的之前的件數跟你現在編了預算多兩倍的件數有沒有多兩倍檢測的次數因為我們現在是在有積穿是在"},{"start":188.937,"end":203.534,"text":"做一些養殖試驗然後生整個身體的單件我知道謝謝柯普很棒但我們在盯我們是要監督啦所以一些細節麻煩會後提供給我們不然這個預算我們看起來會我們尊重但是目前不理解好不好我想"},{"start":203.854,"end":225.329,"text":"旁邊有一些官員也有點搖頭所以我想我們來確認一下那我也想說這個我們真的是很支持核安會的預算從一開始第一天來到這裡就是這樣那本席上次有跟主委提到就是SMR的研究經費不足那至今這個我們還在幫你們爭取他說現在只有國園院一億元的計畫"},{"start":227.23,"end":247.987,"text":"那我想主委這麼專業一定知道美國是多少億?1000億法國是多少億?360億韓國67億即便我們還幫你們加上了國科會審查當中的中長程計畫116到119也才10億平均一年下來之後可能再變成2.5億完全遠遠落後國據啊我們剛剛看到的是韓國67法國360"},{"start":250.615,"end":274.062,"text":"美國1000 那我們不要去比美國好了 加大業大我們比韓國可以吧 67億啊請問主委 這些國家是傻子嗎 還是他們遇到騙子還是說台灣未來不需要電 主委你可不可以跟我們分享一下就是說我們現在正在做明年預算 概算嘛請問主委 明年在SMR到底要編列多少"},{"start":276.799,"end":299.447,"text":"我們今年是1億,明年是4年,1加4年的計畫,加上SMR,加上Micro Reactor,就是MMR所以這個計畫裡面編了10億,希望一年平均有2.5億的預算能夠進來但是國科還在審查中,不見得能夠完全照這個數目合給我們現在2.5億都不一定全能夠拿到"},{"start":300.507,"end":320.441,"text":"那這個民眾聽了很緊張啊覺得說這個預算的編列是部會的職權行政院有機會要執行我們的總統相關的方向結果我們現在一年用2.5億要來打發賴總統的新式核能的計畫我想這樣我們是不是有點對不起他的說法"},{"start":322.615,"end":337.08,"text":"這個我們是不是幫國客會幫我們核安會支持一下嘛這個那我們也鼓勵說核安會我們能不能再編這個再討論一下不然這個比較起來好像台灣不需要電我想"},{"start":337.881,"end":350.898,"text":"因為我們非常多國外的專家來看覺得台灣是不是不需要電啊但是大家都非常緊張報告委員主要是SMR的時程在國際上尤其是西方世界應該五年以後才有機會三轉"},{"start":354.142,"end":374.298,"text":"這個資料是你們提供的喔就是美國是一千億法國三百六十億韓國六十七億那我們說人家還很久啦讓人家跑就好了我們晚一點這個不是科學研究的邏輯吧那我們所有科學研究國科會所有科學研究都暫停了別人做完了成熟了我們不用投入了我們再來做可以這樣嗎"},{"start":376.343,"end":397.939,"text":"同意這樣的說法嗎 不同意吧 不會同意吧 科學跟技術是這樣的說法嗎我們希望維持一個基本的量能啦 不只要基本啦 我想台灣的 我們台積電的等級我們世界科技的中心 我們總統的名字裡面有AI 新式核能研發也可以運用AI啊"},{"start":398.539,"end":414.193,"text":"對不對我看你很點頭嘛所以我想啦這個我們希望一起來努力那我們也希望國歌會不只要這個要全額通過甚至國歌會是不是可以再多加支持但是河岸會自己也要多加爭取主委能不能多加爭取"},{"start":416.008,"end":423.792,"text":"主委是非常努力 帶著我到這裡這個數量的誠意我覺得大家也會覺得沒有凸顯出我們賴總統的決策這樣我覺得好像賴總統已經講了結果我們的行政機關好像在打發他沒有這個意思吧"},{"start":441.431,"end":445.625,"text":"我做球給你們你們要說沒有這個意思還是其實是在打發他"},{"start":447.932,"end":475.049,"text":"我覺得先生這方面很支持這方面的研究好 支持我們就多一些好不好那我想我們來看一下不只是我們剛剛提到的啦人才也很重要那河南會近三年人才培育相關的經費我們剛剛已經講了我們賴總統也喊了 心事何能在很多場合裡都提到但裡面呢預算竟然還有逐年減少的情況哇 我們缺電我們需要更新的技術啊 我們不要去了解它"},{"start":475.709,"end":497.82,"text":"我不只我編列預算跟人家沒辦法比我甚至呢我科普教育我給你少一點是怎麼樣讓大家都不要知道有心事核能讓大家都不要知道SMR嗎這樣跟得上國際的做法嗎我想這個希望主委啊該花的錢要花該做的事要做隨著全球各國的狀況我覺得這個我不用放給您看啦對吧"},{"start":498.94,"end":510.748,"text":"八成韓國人挺核能啊目標2028年還要啟用兩座新的日本今年1月20號已經重啟全球最大核電廠2月要正式商轉所以我想"},{"start":511.701,"end":531.146,"text":"國安會如果未來評估風險增加或者新的研究要加大大家都會支持啊因為這大家一起努力能源的安全我們的永續這個是跨黨派的這沒有政治的意識責任所以我想主管不要害怕該編的就編好不好可以嗎"},{"start":532.686,"end":552.998,"text":"那隨著科技發展我想國際對我們的這個能源重視真的很重要啦民眾都非常希望要有選擇不要只是口號那關於核電重啟的計畫核安會必須審過兩份台電提交的報告是再運轉計畫跟自主安檢報告那上個月底呢台電已經將再運轉的計畫送到核安會那準備的會議也在4月1號召開這個我們看到了"},{"start":558.381,"end":574.527,"text":"據本席了解目前審查委員的意見我們問同仁跟我們說已經收集完畢了可是剛剛有委員問你又說還沒收集到這個羅生門誰說的是真的到底審查委員的意見收集完畢了沒"},{"start":576.145,"end":597.899,"text":"跟委員說明我們已經收集 可是我們要彙整我說收集完畢了沒 我這話講得很清楚吧收到了沒收到了 還要再進行彙整那就很清楚嘛 那也許剛剛主委口誤啦那我們不能一個國會有兩個國安會的說法嘛那請問主委啦 這些意見就是說你們彙整"},{"start":599.24,"end":613.288,"text":"收集完畢但還在彙整意見那彙整意見要告知台電嗎那什麼時候打算預計告知總不能一年十年一百年嗎有沒有時間那彙整完之後大概下個禮拜就會正式發案給台電公司"},{"start":614.048,"end":631.725,"text":"下個禮拜很好我想這個時間就是要抓緊那這個流程有可能還要往復但是很可能還是要抓緊那請和安會密切掌握審查過程裡面產生的一些相關的說法不要讓有心人士有操縱跟影響審查的空間"},{"start":632.586,"end":660.882,"text":"那除了再運轉計畫還有自主安全報告要繳交因為我們很重視核能安全嘛所以我們有非常完整的這個做法那經濟部表示要最快2027年中才能提交核安會但是我們本來法規辦法都講了三檢項目可以分階段送本席在上次詢答也都跟各位確認過了那主委去年跟本席回答說會跟台電密切溝通啊現在溝通的怎麼樣有沒有收到任何一項報告因為可以分次嘛"},{"start":661.522,"end":686.655,"text":"有沒有任何一項報告跟我說明喔到目前為止也只有再運轉計畫那台電公司內部還在進行自主安全檢查所以自主安全報告目前分批送是零啦對不對 零啦那這怎麼推薦進度啊那台電現在是打算多久之後要送一年 一年半 十年 一百年有沒有 他們有沒有意願要分階段送"},{"start":687.595,"end":704.213,"text":"目前就我們所了解他們已經開始在進行現在已經一年半很快就過完了啦那我們是提議啦是不是和安徽還是要主導一個這樣子的一些會議啦那主動的積極的去增加互動好不好那不能一直等等"},{"start":704.773,"end":722.291,"text":"一年半過完了再來十年半再來一百年我想這不是這樣我們台灣真的很不一樣我們跟各國可能也都不一樣我們要加緊努力啦那上次本席也詢問過主委被降級三級機關有沒有影響上次啊主委很誠懇的說調為二級單位對國際交流"},{"start":724.133,"end":748.213,"text":"人才培育跨部會整合有幫助這你們的報告裡面寫的寫得非常完整升格以後可以落實國際原子能總署的報告當中提到強化安全管制機關職能之精神這你們寫的我非常感謝你們把這樣的一個狀態提出來那目前人種的同仁也在請人種的同仁好不好請人種的同仁"},{"start":750.643,"end":764.426,"text":"那這個先問主委您跟卓院長任總反映過升格的事了嗎目前討論的結果怎麼樣我想所有委員跨黨派都很關心因為這也是您自己的報告內容"},{"start":765.834,"end":789.985,"text":"反映過了嗎?這方面呢,我的理解是目前還涉及很多行政院組織法方面的並不是修改一項法律就會解決的所以組織法的事跟卓院長沒有關係就是組織升格,沒關係啦沒提過我希望您提,因為我們大家一起來提好不好那任總也在,我請問任總對核安會升級二級機關的態度是什麼?"},{"start":791.806,"end":810.192,"text":"我想這個文字我不用朗讀給您聽管制機關必須要有足夠的權限還要跨領域相關的才能確保核能安全你不讓他提升成績他沒有辦法確保核能安全我們在這裡所有跨黨派的委員我們都要關心請教任總"},{"start":811.423,"end":839.73,"text":"是 報告委員我們人種的部分是因為審查和安慰是在12年的時候改制那改制的過程裡面它其實是雖然是調整為三級但是它其實是從那個三級的部分變成獨立機關的角色所以依照它的相關的法規的授權跟它的專業性的審查不會因為它的層級性而影響到它的專業的提升"},{"start":841.03,"end":861.799,"text":"那現在到底是幾級機關目前就是三級的獨立機關對啊 我在跟你講三級 你說三級獨立機關他的權責就比二級機關更大嗎 更好嗎他可以做到 他有更多足夠的權限嗎報告委員 那個他的權限主要還是來自於法規授權他專業審查的那個能力他有沒有跨部會溝通協調的能力"},{"start":863.56,"end":879.265,"text":"還是有啊他有辦法請台電趕快提交嗎他原則上他是受台電提交來做審查啦沒關係任總這個同仁齁我理解大家都很辛苦啦我希望任總不要去挑戰國際原子能總署的相關報告"},{"start":880.385,"end":899.186,"text":"也不要低估我們組委、我們核安會所做出來的報告的因應的期盼,國人的因應期盼,不要用這種什麼法規的文字面的東西,具體事實就是職能不足啦,需要提升。那我們運動部就有空間可以提升,為什麼核安會沒有?"},{"start":900.207,"end":919.725,"text":"所以我想不要去玩文字遊戲希望任總可以好好的思考跟賴總統 卓榮泰 院長一起表態既然要重返核能是不是讓核安會重返二級機關這點也希望任總的同仁帶回去跟任市長討論有沒有可以調整的地方一個月內給本席一個回應可以嗎"},{"start":921.328,"end":948.631,"text":"是好一個月內那我想另外啦我想這個科技的發展我們就是要進步啦我們也要民主我們也要進步啦那我們剛剛提到的是這個這個這個核安會嘛那不要遇到科技人種好像都在卡我相信不是這樣的意思之前我們也問我們在教育委員會故宮的數位資訊室要升格為數位資訊處人事長也表示很支持啊後來研議做後續會議研議的結果怎麼樣了"},{"start":949.432,"end":973.041,"text":"可以請回去了解一下在這個月月底前把結果告知本席辦公室可以嗎謝謝報告這個人事長是有同意的有有那個是在業務質詢的時候委員的提出所以月底前結果告知本席可以嗎好我們回去轉達謝謝另外在金管會我們現在這個虛擬資產服務法也即將要上路本席的版本在條文中有明定金管會應設專責單位人員人數要依其業務增減來調整"},{"start":977.023,"end":998.784,"text":"接下來虛擬資產服務法可能會排審,我真的是希望人種啊,不只是我們剛剛提到的虛擬資產,不只是我們剛剛提到的故宮的這個數位的要轉,轉成處,還有我們最重要的核能的能源的安全,不要因為卡在什麼樣的文字上的原因,一定要提供給核安會足夠的權限,"},{"start":1000.105,"end":1022.956,"text":"專業的能力和什麼財務還有人力資源他才有辦法獨立行使職權嘛你講說他很獨立很棒他沒有人沒有權沒有錢你要叫他怎麼保護我們的核能安全這個同意嗎這個人種的同仁同意嗎沒有權沒有錢沒有權沒有人怎麼有辦法保障我們的核能安全這個同意嗎"},{"start":1024.036,"end":1039.599,"text":"呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃"}]}},{"id":"168714","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168714","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1649e2bfcc752544ef38d440c98c629e74f2050ed7b2b649bda828a474ca019315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:46:12 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你可不可以讓大家知道說你這短差的15億為什麼跟原來預期的目標少了25%"},{"start":46.25,"end":63.03,"text":"我們碳費的目的其實是要求是在減量所以在制度設計上有兩種優惠費率一個是用標竿的方式那如果企業提自主減量計畫他會用試用100元的費率另外一個是對其國際以科學減量基礎的SBI"},{"start":63.632,"end":80.732,"text":"那很嚴格那他就適用50元的費率那原先我們在估的時候我們是估大概可能沒有到這個九成會提自主減量計劃那也沒有那麼高的適用這個50元的費率可是當去年整個制度正式上路之後"},{"start":81.152,"end":95.588,"text":"其實有超過九成的這些工廠它是提了自主減量計畫而且有六十幾個廠它提的是用五十元的費率所以也造成整個估算可以收到的是四十五億"},{"start":96.209,"end":107.859,"text":"好就是因為九成的企業提了自主減量計劃所以導致這個收益少了15億嘛低於你原來的估算那所以我們要檢討的就是你的這個企業自主減量計劃到底有沒有真的達到"},{"start":114.364,"end":118.926,"text":"企業減碳的效果你這個減量計畫是不是企業說了算了因為現在環團有指出來你現在的企業自主減量計畫現在有三大的缺失我們可以來討論一下就是說你到底你的嚴謹度怎麼樣第一個就是他其實並沒有設定出中長期的這個"},{"start":136.274,"end":160.865,"text":"減量的目標那減量的路徑也缺乏科學依據跟數據的支撐他的執行成效難以量化評估這個是第一個第二個他缺乏透明監督的機制也就是企業自主減量計畫他缺乏內部查核機制跟第三方的驗證規劃資訊揭露不夠即使透明難以確保"},{"start":164.606,"end":184.781,"text":"減量數據的真實性第三個缺失是他欠缺具體減量的措施因為這個環團指出來就是計畫這個是過於籠統沒有明確列出他的設備更新因為設備更新也是非常的重要能源轉型或者是製程改良的技術細節與預計投入的成本"},{"start":187.603,"end":192.169,"text":"就是這三大缺失我要就教部長你自己有看到這樣一個問題嗎因為原本在國際上面他對於這個碳費的徵收他一個有效的工具是他可以逐步去調高他的碳費"},{"start":203.704,"end":222.775,"text":"碳費的調升是一個有效的工具但是你們環境部已經講了我們不採取碳費的調升我不曉得是現在不調升還是未來都不會調升你採取的是企業自主減量計畫但是你的自主減量計畫如果是如此的鬆散企業說了算"},{"start":224.375,"end":245.064,"text":"這個跟你未來預計要達到的成效恐怕會出現很大的落差部長你自己有看到這個問題嗎好包委喔這個我在產業界待過很吃到這個情形我不認為這是你說的三個缺失因為第一個有沒有減量目標他必須承諾2030年有沒有達得到這是白紙黑字他達不到就要回到300塊的減量的額度所以具體目標是一定要做的"},{"start":245.444,"end":265.323,"text":"那透明監督呢這個計畫我們經過大家一起溝通能夠開放的就開放全世界對於這種探聽價台灣算是開放的最多的你不能所有的企業他做了什麼樣的小事情有些是跟他的這個敵對對手的競爭力是有關的那他其實該放的我們就會放你放在哪裡"},{"start":266.796,"end":287.371,"text":"網站上面啊都有公告嘛都有公告都有公告在你的碳費專區都有公告出來是沒錯沒錯那第三個呢簡單說是他一定要列那列金融專家審查審議過這是由本部聘請的專家審議過才能夠確定那審議的內容有沒有包括環團指出來的設備更新能源轉型或製程改良的技術細節當然這個有沒有這麼的詳細"},{"start":288.792,"end":309.838,"text":"我從來很相信基本上我跟委員報告這個對我來說這個是一個企業運轉的機密我們會掌握到企業運轉的機密我都要求他們要簽這種所謂的保密的原則來做這個事因為這個如果說某一家敵對的對手知道對方做什麼事這個會影響到競爭力的所以不能夠所有都公開因為這裡面有一些企業營運的機密在裡面"},{"start":310.998,"end":316.28,"text":"我們當然不要求公開但是我覺得部長你好像輕忽了這樣的一個現象當有九成的企業他要採取的是自主減量然後你們也選擇退讓你們不要調升碳費的時候你真的覺得你這樣的一個碳費你現在的收價的制度未來跟國際可以接軌嗎你未來有調升的能力嗎還是說遇到企業一反彈的時候事實上環境部就是退讓"},{"start":339.23,"end":359.426,"text":"包委員這個不是像你這樣講的深不深是要看我們目前執行的狀況今年五月才會收到第一筆的碳費那你什麼時候再評估要不要調升我們基本上今年說完之後我們可能明年可以來討論明年後年的這個事情所以你是會每年去檢討的還是你現在政策是傾向就是不會調升"},{"start":360.126,"end":384.742,"text":"基本上這個會是因為當時這個決定碳費的時候有一個目標要調整的目標但是我們後來在執行的時候也發現說這樣的透過一個國家訂成一個價錢這是不符合市場機制的所以我們更傾向用這個ETS總量管制的排放交易這樣的做法新制度來的做法能夠把企業真實的碳定價反映到成本上面這是我們期待的做法"},{"start":385.512,"end":410.583,"text":"事實上台灣現在的做法因為我們剛上路喔那我看到的就是恐怕你環境部想要達到的目標很難達成喔因為你光是一年你的60億就達不到了喔那未來之前你們還預估說什麼百億喔我想這個應該是非常難喔不會不會委員你不能這樣說因為他企業願意撿的更多他要花更多的錢這是我們的目標不是我們收了很多的錢從企業上面拔毛不是這個樣子的"},{"start":411.343,"end":424.775,"text":"好部長這只是你的說辭啦齁那這個我已經看到你今年已經打了25%了啦就是你已經打折了跟你原來預估其實已經不一樣了未來這個其實也是看綠啦齁接下來我要講的是"},{"start":426.997,"end":443.488,"text":"接下來我要講的是你的這個一個是這個碳費不如你原來預期的成效第二個是你的碳封存這個也是環境部一個很重要的計畫你們設定了一個非常理想的目標2030年176萬噸2032年400萬噸2035年600萬噸這個目標非常的理想但是呢到目前為止今年"},{"start":456.736,"end":467.008,"text":"是零動工沒有任何一個廠就是有順利動工的那請問如果以現在是零的情況底下2030、2032、2035的這個目標可以達成嗎"},{"start":472.198,"end":484.151,"text":"其實本來碳補作後封存它就是需要一個比較長的時間去規劃跟建置而且也必須要當然啊所以我現在要問你的就是你今年一個廠址都沒有你2030會有176萬噸的這個碳封存喔"},{"start":488.235,"end":506.698,"text":"我們今年已經有核准通過中油公司的在苗栗鐵珍山的一個封存試驗計畫那它的目標是會存30萬噸那當然這是一個試驗計畫那另外這個碳補作後封存其實在2030年還會包括一個碳補作後的利用這個也都會算進來"},{"start":507.859,"end":528.104,"text":"所以你要在這邊掛保證2030年可以達到176萬噸的目標這個是旗艦計畫的目標我們會跟各部會共同努力那你現在要不要下修你的目標因為這個是跟著整個國家檢探系目標的這個其中的因為你說苗栗的這一個我們就來看今天忠友是不是也有代表來"},{"start":532.231,"end":550.626,"text":"來苗栗的這個計畫是中有負責的你說苗栗這個我們就來看一下就是苗栗現在的這個鐵砧山的計畫事實上苗栗已經2012年就有一個曾經有過一個計畫然後就是沒有辦法施行那現在2023年這個鐵砧山的計畫現在"},{"start":556.371,"end":569.365,"text":"中東景縣長呼籲中央為取得地方信任不得動工我請問一下這一個場址會動工嗎進度如何預計什麼時候完成"},{"start":572.108,"end":584.992,"text":"跟委員報告這個場址他目前封存的設施都已經做好了但是我們在經審查核准的時候也有很多的要求他必須要做各項的環境監測然後其實中油公司他有架設這個即時監測的這些資訊會跟當地居民來溝通那我們也要求中油公司在真正灌注之前還會再跟地方來辦理說明會"},{"start":595.056,"end":595.798,"text":"所以我們在審查當天其實苗栗縣政府也沒有同意我們在整個審查的這些意見"},{"start":603.931,"end":632.509,"text":"所以這個場址什麼時候就是可以開始運作已經沒有已經排除了地方的聲音了嗎當然這個都是要持續資訊公開透明而且要跟居民做溝通那因為他現在還有包括其他相關的法規的這些準備工作要去進行所以詳細的這個確定的時程還是要中油公司來做說明那中油公司要不要回答這個場址你預計什麼時候運作會不會胎死腹中又沒有辦法運作"},{"start":633.677,"end":646.757,"text":"澳委員這個依照計畫的部分是現在在走這個法規的一些行程如果法規的流程走完了才可以實質凍控但是剛剛環境部說明的部分硬體設備已經完成了"},{"start":647.148,"end":674.057,"text":"那你們原來的目標預計什麼時候完成可以實質的進行碳封存原來的目標因為有法規的這個是不是符合法規以及環評的問題所以這個你們沒有目標有有有原來設定應該是在去年或是今年應該有一個硬體設備完成這個是OK的但是運作的部分取決於法規是不是許可"},{"start":675.247,"end":700.26,"text":"好 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