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接下來邱成年委員好 謝謝院長今天要針對這個113年度中央政府總預算案那民眾黨的主張非常明確我們希望就是因為現在目前委員會應該還剩教文委員會的河安會還沒有審訊那還有交通委員會交通委員會的這個公共工程委員會以及NCC國家通訊傳播委員會還有"},{"start":2602.957,"end":2631.941,"text":"國家運輸安全調查委員會 跟中央氣象署 這幾個還沒有審訊所以應該是 看起來是應該到下禮拜三會完成所以我們主張 12月8號 就是收案截止下禮拜五之前 收案截止14號開始請院長密集安排協商那可以在20號那個禮拜 來去完成三讀那相關營業費營業基金 我們也希望在法定會期內把它完成"},{"start":2632.911,"end":2649.853,"text":"至於本屆的未竟之功針對之前大家討論的提早休會這件事情民眾黨這邊的態度還是主張我們反對提早休會不贊成停會因為我們除了預算總預算案我們希望在法定會期完成之外我們還有幾個"},{"start":2651.315,"end":2678.943,"text":"重大的法案待處理我們希望可以來去完成我們的未竟之功包含這個11月16號委員會完成審查的屯房稅2.0這個房屋稅條例部分條文修正草案以及11月24號未完成協商保留條文待游院長協商的最低工資法還有外交國防委員會在11月20號審查完畢的軍事營區安全維護條例這還有保留條文也要請游院長召開黨團協商"},{"start":2680.923,"end":2699.02,"text":"這個也是涉及我國現任全民國防跟國家安全的重要法案另外還有本黨團吳欣英委員在未還委員會審查完畢希望姚院長可以召開協商處理的數位醫療發展條例草案這個部分"},{"start":2699.62,"end":2722.598,"text":"我們知道因為這幾個重要的法案跟我們國人關心的目標非常一致因為屆期不連續的關係我們希望在第十屆可以奠定一個好的基礎不要讓這一屆的努力白費所以除了本週五預計三讀通過的現在這個道路交通安全基本法這也是大家非常關心的那也很順利我們在交通委員會審查"},{"start":2723.599,"end":2724.781,"text":"８立法院黨團協商８公務預算部分８公務預算部分"},{"start":2745.303,"end":2771.574,"text":"發展法草案以及地方創生促進法草案這個兩項法案因為這個是對於少子化國安危機包含我們在上個會期就提出的少子女化社會對策基本法這個都是我們本黨團現在關心的這個重大法案我們希望可以在這個會期盡快的來處理那現在因為都停在委員會待審那隨著本屆任期結束之後其實很多法案就屆期不連續我們希望可以把"},{"start":2772.954,"end":2798.887,"text":"有限時間內 完成未競資工所以重申 針對總預算 營業費 營業基金部分我們主張在法定會期內 我們完成審查至於後續要提早休會的部分 我們主張反對希望在剩下的時間 可以把這些未完成的法案 盡快來稍微協商 完成三讀以上是我們的主張 謝謝好 謝謝邱總召接下來 接下來 來"},{"start":2808.332,"end":2833.202,"text":"各位同仁大家好有關總預算的部分因為我們上次協商的時候有初步就希望能夠20號可以修會大方向支持假設這樣推的話國民黨的意見是希望12月6號截止收案"},{"start":2834.775,"end":2852.449,"text":"這段期間之後 讓各部會可以溝通的期間 12月11號再進行相關的草委協商 因為剛剛陳妍已經講了 14號那太慢了 太慢你那時候 你到時候會時間太短"},{"start":2854.621,"end":2870.099,"text":"有關時間上的修正我的想法是原則上支持在修位前讓他完成三讀但是有些部會我們現在留下來比如這段期間的NCC太不像話了"},{"start":2871.564,"end":2896.595,"text":"這NCC本來是依照它組織條例規定是是獨立機關現在變成民進黨的附屬單位還不是機關 附屬單位所以超級誇張比如說像趙薩昌先生成為國民黨的副總統的搭檔副總統候選人結果媒體登說他已經辭了"},{"start":2898.507,"end":2918.763,"text":"他現在也沒有主持節目啦那依照他那個廣播電視法第五條之一沒有問題完全合法結果NCC出來講如果有必要約談這什麼NCC啊這能讓他通過嗎當然不可以還有行政院這段期間"},{"start":2921.035,"end":2946.795,"text":"常常配合賴清德副總統大撒幣 行政院院本部的留下來另外就是有關華視 超級誇張 超級誇張啦他的高層幾乎都三立來的啦另外都基本上他應該是公事集團 變成不是公事集團 所以文化部"},{"start":2948.086,"end":2956.898,"text":"的預算也留下來所以國民黨大方向支持但是行政院 院本部 NCC 還有文化部"},{"start":2958.357,"end":2984.54,"text":"這段期間可以進行,但基本上這三個行政院本部、NCCC、更化部的預算我們觀察一段時間再審第三點,有關法案的部分,我們倆主張有兩個法案希望這段期間可以通過,第一個基本工資法基本工資法最低工資法,對,最低工資法要過"},{"start":2986.087,"end":2986.488,"text":"防護稅條例﹑屯廊稅"},{"start":3000.357,"end":3025.737,"text":"委員長、各位協商代表我聽起來,事實上各黨團所談的,我們談第一個總預算的問題總預算大概明天,交安委員會審查有關於NCC還有工程會最後一次然後還有交易委員會有關於核安會預算"},{"start":3028.379,"end":3034.983,"text":"我跟曾銘銘商量,下禮拜有婚姻要調給他,下禮拜一要處理,大概總預算結束"},{"start":3037.049,"end":3058.007,"text":"有關於營業及非營業基金當然我們一直想能夠處理但是現在實質上完全來不及各位會都完全來不及這個我們要面對事實本來一開始這個會期本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本本"},{"start":3060.129,"end":3081.327,"text":"政政組委員組成6號、7號、8號、6、7、8都有啊你人人嘛那你責重一下7號也可以啦責重一下7號也可以就來樣手7號7號可以嘛齁7號7號可以嘛齁7號可以嘛齁7號可以嘛齁7號可以嘛齁7號可以嘛齁7號可以嘛齁7號可以嘛齁7號可以嘛齁7號可以嘛齁7號可以嘛齁7號可以嘛"},{"start":3087.821,"end":3102.992,"text":"就大家著重嘛,差不多就三天原則上是這樣啦,但是有一些特殊的環境,或者是有些重大的案件我們大家都在這裡預算,都很有經驗那6、7、8起7號嘛,就到7號截止什麼開始溝通就11號你說幾號?"},{"start":3116.455,"end":3135.185,"text":"臺灣的說完了要馬上去溝通啦11號要來開始啦要開始啦密集喔我是說14號開始密集協商不是14號去溝通你懂我意思嗎那大家我最近大家啦都先找人啦 哪有在找人你不要找人"},{"start":3141.349,"end":3161.707,"text":"我們都是稀有靈犀臉通的11號開始協商這是基本上那剛剛邱總長有講一句話說希望20號以前完成三讀這是一定的沒關係我講完再來喬"},{"start":3165.242,"end":3184.137,"text":"休會時間,我們跟國民黨說是一樣,希望最後一天是19號,那早日當沒有公司就要通過M1程序來處理,這很公平的,那不會說大家誰聽誰的,那這個有關這個部分,我一算就差不多如此。"},{"start":3186.588,"end":3203.627,"text":"各位放心,你們現在所提的有關於洪水、有關於這一公司,還有事實上不只這些我今天早上也稍微跟鄭中委員稍微溝通一下,我們有很多法案,金氏延期的那個也會"},{"start":3206.41,"end":3234.836,"text":"今天有所提的法案,包括下禮拜可能省的電話飲食促進法,像今天吃太陽才拿出來要檳榔,這個都是很正常的法案就是說應該統計的法案還不止這些,我們都一一會把它完成,而且我們都有安部就班在處理有的就是能夠表決就表決嘛至於沒有辦法做到就是說"},{"start":3236.212,"end":3265.175,"text":"你那種黨人所提的世衛醫療世衛醫療這個是吳靜雲委員所提的嘛那世衛醫療他這個沒有行政版本他那個版本寫的事實上可能大部分大家都有意見委員會審的時候大家都很清楚那要表決也不到一個月也不能表決那這個是一個人要把世衛醫療修好不是那麼簡單那個要整個行政部門下來人家沒辦法啦都要公費"},{"start":3266.553,"end":3293.564,"text":"另外有關於邱仁志委員所談的刑訴的事件監禁,這樣大家都簽完了嘛,只是讓謝宇峰也了解,他們都說明過了可以的話這個禮拜五就可以排入議程嘛,道安條例也是這個禮拜五也會排進去那大概我們總結來講的話,我們希望走運站能夠通過,然後該通過法案"},{"start":3294.983,"end":3319.01,"text":"有十幾種,我們陸續會提出來那這部分請大家到時候都沒有公示在院長要出去插下去反正那個已經到一個月都可以表決,不到一個月就比較難講了我們會把它整理出來那最後一點就是說,但是我要拜託曾民東總召啦我知道你對於NCC有意見"},{"start":3321.857,"end":3329.531,"text":"NC有意見的話,當然對於遭遭狀況的事情明天誰要想出委會來?你自己覺得沒關係?"},{"start":3333.127,"end":3359.241,"text":"該怎麼樣我們會怎樣,我們不會說硬拗,趙鋒鋒本身他是總市長請假,中廣總市長請假,但他也是總經理,他也是總經理,那個也要一併請假還有蓋歐普民調他也是中廣的,所以那邊都要在選舉上都應該有很清楚的表示,其他照法來就好了"},{"start":3360.262,"end":3372.636,"text":"我相信沒有選任以後,一般解釋就任才要辭但是相關的該請假的書上面應該要請假這點明天你就問NCC就好啦"},{"start":3374.608,"end":3390.297,"text":"那另外有關行政驗補部和有關於這個法事法事現在只是政府每人補助他而已嘛我認為法事把文化部整個趴掉也不對啦所以有關這些總預算有不同意見我們希望能夠建立在溝通上面"},{"start":3390.902,"end":3410.5,"text":"因為你假如這幾個不出意的話,總預算還是不會過啊,就白搞了啦總預算一定還是整個總統三讀嘛,那數字都很清楚我在這裡還是跟政務委員沒關係,你現在在NCC去問沒關係我不要怕問啦,我不是這麼問啦,委員長不是主委啦"},{"start":3414.744,"end":3428.393,"text":"可是延期預算你覺得有意見,明明就問他,錢保留也無所謂啦,至少我們有機會來處理啦,這樣好不好?來這裡說也可以啦,沒關係啦我覺得我沒有任何意見,總的來講,我們一定要有這個統計嘛,應該通過法案"},{"start":3436.718,"end":3437.939,"text":"我再補充一點就有關法案的部分刑法185條之3獨駕"},{"start":3462.148,"end":3478.179,"text":"讀價的部分我們也希望能夠在休會前完成三讀我們要一個法案一個法案來你不要說讀價沒有過的話其他都不要不能這樣講有關新華185條之3已經在禮拜擺很久了有關讀價但讀品的種類很多種"},{"start":3486.119,"end":3512.826,"text":"數百種所以每一個要弄得很清楚雖然很困難那為什麼法務部和司法院一直有不同意見因為司法院認為你這個毒品種類很多種比如說你四年前戳大麻但是今天抓到根本已經它已經驗不出來了所以很多還有很多毒品的種類太多所以沒有辦法很清楚的"},{"start":3513.926,"end":3530.163,"text":"弄得很清楚的話施懷英認為這樣的話很快會被判違憲所以他現在我們在這樣活佈是想通過施懷英有一些疑慮我們再來溝通沒有關係我知道崔玉峰委員也有提一個版本和活佈的不一樣"},{"start":3531.144,"end":3557.857,"text":"我協商的時候那個版本我已經取消了我們就按照就是行政院的跟司法院他們共同的版本而且那天在協商的時候其實司法院也沒有意見他們認為說把那個毒品的那個品項有沒有沒有寫在立法說明那他們叫法務部回去那其實當天黨團協商的時候就是黨團協商大家也同意說不用經過院長協商可是不知道為什麼回去以後就是"},{"start":3560.24,"end":3574.277,"text":"陳昭華委員那天也在現場,我們各黨都沒有意見這法案都會說的,就是說石文宇有餘力,他說你沒有弄很清楚的話,人家失竊的話"},{"start":3577.305,"end":3577.505,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3594.381,"end":3622.659,"text":"在收案的時間建議在12月7號嘛剛剛大家討論但是希望這個時間能夠拉到下午然後另外呢實力黨團就是還是反對我們提前停會我們還是要再重申我們的主張因為真的是很多重要的法案我們也都沒有來完成以上"},{"start":3623.999,"end":3628.782,"text":"請各黨團於12月7日星期四中午12點之前將《113年度中央政府總預算案》之提案送至財政委員會會長"},{"start":3650.897,"end":3668.196,"text":"預時不再說案 財政委員會說案後 交各該委員會整理復印相關提案後 於12月8日星期五中午12時前提供各黨團及相關行政部委員參考 請行政部委員向提案委員及黨團進行雙向說明 陸時溝通 畢例"},{"start":3672.08,"end":3675.845,"text":"後續12月11日星期一起密集協商"},{"start":3690.902,"end":3711.593,"text":"那8號星期五就會因為大家都知道他們我們的行政要收起來所以如果最好是在所有點讓我們的行政委員那第二天禮拜五他們也有半天可以整理這樣這個院長這個部分還是希望能夠拉那你就拉到下午3點4點這樣"},{"start":3713.194,"end":3728.963,"text":"有差啦 拜託啦 有什麼差啦 喝醉回去啦 該提案就差不多了真的你說 這小修正而已啊 等一下我講一下剛才大家有提到說有某案上不服喔 到時候要加就好了 我們不會這麼硬嘛 好不好"},{"start":3729.783,"end":3756.431,"text":"我當院長應該要替我們的行政委員講一句話就是說他們只想加班你5點給他他就晚上要加班所以說你如果12點給他他下午可以錄一錄第二天中午又給各位各位的辦公室也會方便啦因為以前的收案其實過了時間還是會收但是因為現在的我們這邊"},{"start":3758.558,"end":3759.759,"text":"為什麼都要通過你?"},{"start":3784.276,"end":3785.097,"text":"兩件啦兩件啦對嘛 這講話怎麼都"},{"start":3808.086,"end":3809.847,"text":"我們寫原則,原則寫下去,不要寫預時不在"},{"start":3837.398,"end":3848.671,"text":"有啦有啦不是,你一寫一寫都可以演,大家都會演,各黨都會演可是我們有時候差個一分鐘就不收,這讓我們不會,他們不敢這樣啦有時候落列的話再補也可以啦"},{"start":3856.954,"end":3857.555,"text":"請各黨團在12月7日星期四 下午2點前"},{"start":3874.552,"end":3901.359,"text":"將《113年度中央政府總預算案》之提案送致財政委員會會長預署不再說案財政委員會說案後交各該委員會整理呼應相關提案後於12月8日星期五中午12點之前提供各黨團及相關行政部委員參考請行政部委員向提案委員及黨團進行雙向說明陸續溝通必利後續12月11日星期一其密集協商"},{"start":3902.244,"end":3902.604,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4057.107,"end":4057.127,"text":"暫停會議"}]}},{"id":"15318","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15318","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc69f9bd0cb75d545d468d7f3d46fa58f646d53a332764a535185dd9187731472b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-11-29T13:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：併案協商一、司法及法制委員會併案審查（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」（二）委員許淑華等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂第一百六十條之一條文草案」（三）委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」（四）委員江永昌等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」；二、本院時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；三、司法及法制委員會報告審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十五條文草案」案）","type":"Full","date":"2023-11-29","start_time":"2023-11-29T12:30:24+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[36],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2023112719","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-11-29T13:30:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":3576,"委員發言時間":"12:30:24 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剛剛委任應該注意的事項我們建議是不用特別把它羅列出來這個是也不會因為委任鑑定因為它不是由法院來選任的那卻由法院來裁定命題續刑恐怕有委任或選任鑑定關係混淆不清的情形所以我們建議是不予增訂"},{"start":2583.551,"end":2604.73,"text":"兩百零六條部分有關於鑑定報告書的內容及記載方式這部分我們在符合大伯法則的相關規定你要把說你的鑑定必須依照用言詞或書面報告的時候應該包括要記載什麼樣的項目包括鑑定人的專業能力是有助於事實的認定或鑑定是不是依照足夠的"},{"start":2605.911,"end":2614.093,"text":"事實或資料為基礎或可靠的鑑定方法原則（四（委員江永昌等20人擬具 «可靠的鑑定方法原則（四（委員江永昌等20人擬具 «可靠的鑑定方法原則（四（委員江永昌等20人擬具"},{"start":2632.236,"end":2644.592,"text":"至於206之二的部分就是有關於駁回申請裁定的部駁回傳喚鑑定的部分的裁定可不可以抗告的問題那這部分行政院原先有請求要"},{"start":2645.646,"end":2671.413,"text":"有建議要整列（但是我們目前已經達成共識（因為相關政經的調查必要性（這部分屬於程序上的裁定（訴訟程序上的裁定（在一百刑事訴訟法404條（是認為程序裁定是不可以抗告的（所以我們建議是不應該賦予（被申請的抗告權（這部分我們跟行政院這部分（也已經達成了有共識了（這部分就是"},{"start":2673.714,"end":2696.056,"text":"206條之二的部分就建議不予增訂208部分這部分有比較大的變革就是208條主要關的是機關鑑定的部分機關鑑定我們包括第二項的相關機關鑑定是由什麼人來擔任鑑定人那應該用書面的具載應該要書面具具名提出報告這部分以及"},{"start":2699.511,"end":2720.277,"text":"應該所遵循的相關的實施和鑑定的方法（跟報告它的證據能力的部分那這部分我們跟行政院版本來有很大的不同那目前我們有達成一個共識我們以行政院版的為基礎就我們這羅列的相關的有一些機關鑑定在什麼狀況之下讓機關鑑定"},{"start":2722.757,"end":2747.049,"text":"簽訂報告書在書面就有取得證據倫理例如說他當時的民事同意或是依法令有執掌鑑定鑑識的相關機關所實施的鑑定或是主管機關認證的機關或團體所做的鑑定這些機關本身就比較有公信力那相關的鑑定程序也比較嚴謹這部分我們就讓他書面報告就當他取得證據倫理當然"},{"start":2748.63,"end":2764.811,"text":"如果當事人對鑑定報告書認為有爭執或交互結論的必要（我們可以命鑑定人到法院來接受（用延遲的方式來做陳述（甚至可以做交互結論這是我們的那另外這一部分還有一個比較大的"},{"start":2765.732,"end":2773.839,"text":"辯隔原先所報告的198條之一的施選鑑定部分（以列到機關鑑定這邊來（放在208條的第五項這邊（讓當事人在審判中（可以直接委任機關、學校或團體（"},{"start":2784.887,"end":2812.164,"text":"或是醫院做機關做鑑定或是審查他人的鑑定（並準用到198條之二的相關規定這部分我們就有做了施選鑑定的相關規定另外他的鑑定物交付的方式我們也在條文中很明列可以準用163條到163條之二的規定怎樣申請請求法院怎麼交付就回到203條相關的規定來做處理"},{"start":2817.719,"end":2821.985,"text":"這部分是我們跟行政院法務部這邊討論很久有達到共識的部分再次做說明"},{"start":2831.028,"end":2851.327,"text":"最後一條就是211條之一的部分211條是新增列的條文這部分有關於法律鑑定的部分我們行政院版跟我們本來有不同的看法跟司法院版有不同的看法在於說法律鑑定到底鑑定人要不要拒絕的問題我們後來討論的結果我們認為說"},{"start":2855.231,"end":2867.6,"text":"法律意見也許採取不同的看法（但是有一種意見的陳述（也許我們就接受法務部的看法（認為說就排除《刑訴202條》的一些相關的規定（就不需要做拒絕以上是那還有一個施行法的部分（因為剛剛條文跟有一些調整"},{"start":2883.179,"end":2904.173,"text":"謝謝我們李廳長請教我們法務部我們蔡司長有沒有補充沒有補充完全如廳長剛剛所完成的陳述我們跟司法院經過非常多次的協商有達成剛廳長所陳述的這些共識"},{"start":2905.387,"end":2923.24,"text":"好 那我們現在就開始從這個增訂第160條之一我們這個是不予增訂有沒有意見 邱委員這個部分我們的版本是說"},{"start":2924.961,"end":2941.647,"text":"測謊的結果無證據能力我基本上我也是認為說測謊的結果因為它這個爭議真的是非常大我基本上也是會認為說應該要排除它的證據能力不過因為這個"},{"start":2944.028,"end":2970.566,"text":"司法院跟法務部現在是認為說先不予增訂嘛那基本上我們也是支持啦那主要就是說後面這個失選鑑定的這個部分如果能夠趕快來通過的話對台灣的這個刑事訴訟的這個實務會有很長大這個就是說會有一個非常大的進步就這部分所以也同意說不予增訂"},{"start":2971.857,"end":2992.145,"text":"好 我們這條不予增訂那第198條是不是照司法院、行政院提案通過有沒有意見那個 邱委員 沒有意見沒有意見好增訂第198條之一也是照協商內容通過 有沒有意見"},{"start":2994.488,"end":2997.689,"text":"徵定198條之二徵定198條之三徵定198條之四徵定198條之四"},{"start":3026.075,"end":3042.035,"text":"沒有沒有第206條照司法院假案司法院版通過有沒有意見沒有意見好沒有意見增訂第206條之二不予增訂有沒有意見"},{"start":3048.137,"end":3050.261,"text":"第208條照協商內容通過有沒有意見"},{"start":3059.88,"end":3083.94,"text":"這個部分就是說是用主託主託這個機關啦齁主託應該是說他的這個這個版本就是主託這個機關去做處理然後再來就是說他會第五項啦齁OK"},{"start":3087.899,"end":3091.94,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":3109.839,"end":3121.914,"text":"現在進行主題二協商刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十五條文草案這個審查會前於5月22日審查完略審查結果"},{"start":3126.505,"end":3154.113,"text":"是增訂第七條之十五保留送院會處理並決議院會討論前需交由黨團協商請我們與會的機關代表說明有關本條是因為刑事訴訟法剛剛鑑定章的一些相關的調整有關施行法的部分請求增列第七條之十五的"},{"start":3156.151,"end":3180.201,"text":"原先我們原先的草案是我就直接講原先草案是請求在公布後公布實施之日6個月執行那我們建議說這次的鑑定的制度有重大的變革對現行司法實務的鑑定運作會產生重大的衝擊那我們為了讓審檢變還有鑑定人各方面有相關的配套的準備"},{"start":3181.523,"end":3184.535,"text":"除了說可立即實施的條文之外（有關於"},{"start":3187.54,"end":3211.729,"text":"206條第四項、第五項、208條、211條之一這些相關的規定因為涉及到所謂的相關機關的法令的整備的問題那是不是建議可以從公佈後一年內一年實施這公佈後一年實行這是給予一些相關的緩衝期間那以起始心智能運作順暢以上"},{"start":3216.946,"end":3239.116,"text":"法務部這邊有沒有意見跟司法院的意見一樣好那邱委員有沒有意見是說這個有需要這麼久嗎就是說他為什麼需要因為這涉及到是說你可以讓主要是說可以讓當事人可以自己選任鑑定人嘛那有需要有需要說要一年的時間去做給予這個緩衝期"},{"start":3242.392,"end":3256.25,"text":"這跟委員報告一下我會請求給予緩衝期的主要原因是因為我們在208條的第三項增列了許多相關的所謂的機關鑑定機關鑑定部分我們有強調是要具有"},{"start":3257.091,"end":3261.256,"text":"依法令具有執掌鑑定鑑識檢驗的業務的機關才可實施這些機關如果有的話就它的書面報告書面的鑑定書就會有證據原則上就有證據能力"},{"start":3273.632,"end":3274.153,"text":"金主管機關認證的機關或團體所實施的鑑定"},{"start":3294.814,"end":3316.809,"text":"所以我們要讓他的相關鑑定報告書再符合208條相關的規定讓他當然取得證據人力的話他勢必要做一些相關的法令的一些調整包括組織法和作用法的調整讓他變成他具有相關的法令職權來做這個相關的委託鑑定或是受任鑑定這樣子"},{"start":3317.589,"end":3338.896,"text":"所以我們建議是不是應該給其他應該在這機關根據法務部的盤點相當的龐大因為它這個不是只有單一機關而已包括尿液鑑定也有衛護部相關認證的機構或集團體所以我們希望說這個部分應該讓它的法令跟制度還得完備那另外包括鑑定物現在不是單純交付機關那可能還有其他的團體不是我們現在經常用的幾個政府機關的鑑定單位"},{"start":3347.219,"end":3347.339,"text":"刑事訴訟法部"},{"start":3366.937,"end":3367.157,"text":"三（委員"},{"start":3390.424,"end":3391.285,"text":"本日作協商結論如下"},{"start":3416.823,"end":3444.848,"text":"一、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案等五案一、增訂第160條之一、第198條之三、第198條之四及第206條之二均不予增訂第二、第198條及增訂第198條之二均照司法院、行政院提案通過"},{"start":3446.909,"end":3472.338,"text":"增訂第一百九十八條之一（二（二百零八條及增訂第二百十一條之一（均照協商內容通過如附件一（四（二百零六條照司法院（行政院提案之假案司法院版通過（五（其餘均照審查會審查結果通過（"},{"start":3474.71,"end":3502.885,"text":"第二（行事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十五條文草案（增訂第七條之十五（照協商內容通過（並將條次修正為第七條之十九（如附件二稍待議事人員將協商結論書面製作完成後（即交由委員簽名謝謝各位散會"},{"start":3505.589,"end":3515.198,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案（三）委員江永昌等20人擬具"}]}},{"id":"148808","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148808","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d42348606be383c7fe2b50500069142ad034a1c986728e607a032241f8fb5ad44a412f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"09:31:24 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09:43:00","影片長度":"00:11:36","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員陳明文等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員游毓蘭等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員周春米等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員何志偉等29人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳椒華等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林靜儀等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員莊競程等26人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員陳靜敏等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n三、審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-10-8-36-23"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":696,"end_time":"2023-11-29T09:43:00+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T09:31:24+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":336,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（9時31分）好，謝謝主席。我還是想延續剛才我們書記長曾銘宗委員所提到的，我想請問一下法務部。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：有關之前我們在司法及法制委員會做成決議，讓法務部能夠去釐清有關於在網路上流傳指涉行政院副院長鄭文燦帶女子進房間的影片，因為這個程序，當然我在這邊還是要做一個抗議，因為事實上到目前為止，我們司法法制委員會沒有接到任何法務部給我們的回應，沒有任何相關的報告。但是反而是在前兩天，我禮拜一再次召開記者會之後，由中正一分局他們發布新聞稿來說明這個影片經過辨識之後的結果。我想這一點也要跟主席來報告，我覺得法務部實在是太藐視我們司法法制委員會，然後對於我們要求的報告，竟然我們是要透過媒體才看到，而且是由中正一分局主動來發布這個新聞稿。","第二件事情，這個影片事實上我認為中正一分局已經將鑑識的結果講得非常清楚，因為對外的說明就是經過中正一分局送檢驗之後，沒有辦法確定這個影片有深偽的可能。我覺得他們是字斟句酌，翻成白話文來說就是沒有辦法確定它是造假。我想請問一下法務部次長，你是專業，這個說法是不是就是這個影片沒有辦法確定它是造假？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，有關上一次我們司法委員會的決議，事實上本部在隔天就把相關的文件轉給臺北地檢署依法處理，至於揭露鑑定結果的部分，這是中正一分局揭露，並不是臺北地檢署本身揭露的。就我們本部來講，臺北地檢署並沒有跟本部報告任何有關鑑定的結果，就本部基於檢察行政的角度來看，這部分涉及到鑑定的結果是一個偵查的核心內容，所以北檢並沒有向本部報告，也不用、不需要、也不能夠跟本部報告。"],["王委員鴻薇：等一下，其實你們的副司長有來我辦公室做說明，我要講的是，從頭到尾我們司法法制委員會沒有要求對這個案件介入調查，也沒有要求這個案件調查的過程中跟司法法制委員會來做報告，我只要求一個就是那個影片的真偽而已，我覺得應該趕快快速做釐清，因為這個實在是影響官箴，而且影響鄭文燦副院長的名譽至深，我也很想趕快能夠還他清白，所以我是說這個影片的真偽。第一個，我們最後是從媒體去看到這樣的結果，我個人是覺得這樣子真的是非常非常不尊重我們司法法制委員會；第二個，次長，我想請教，就是我剛才所說的，中正一分局做出來的結論沒有辦法確認這個影片是有深偽的可能，是不是就代表經過鑑定之後沒有辦法確定這個影片是假的？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我也是經由媒體的揭露才知道回答的內容，這個回答的結果涉及到檢察官當時選任鑑定機關鑑定的項目是什麼，我們鑑定事項的問題是什麼會決定它答案是什麼，現在就我本身來講、就法務部來講，我們根本不可能知道臺北地檢署當時委託鑑定機關鑑定的項目、問題是什麼。"],["王委員鴻薇：它說沒有深偽的可能……"],["黃次長謀信：對……"],["王委員鴻薇：是不是就代表說至少……你說鑑定項目很多種，至少在這個影片有沒有使用深偽技術，至少沒有辦法證明這個影片確實有deepfake這樣的技術在裡面造假嘛！對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我答案還是一樣，因為涉及到題目問什麼，答案就會是什麼，而且這個答案是不是所有鑑定裡面的其中一部分，還是就已經是全部的答案，其實我們都不知道，所以這個必須要看檢察官問它的問題，它才針對檢察官問題來回答，所以就這個問題本身，我沒辦法判斷它的答案在回答什麼問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：我現在不是要你回答什麼問題嘛！我要講的是中正一分局給我們的答案非常清楚，翻成大白話就是它不是假的，它沒有辦法說這個影片是假的，不是嗎？對不對？你們也有很豐富的辦案經驗，然後一看這個意思就是說我告訴你，不能說它是假的，它未來在辦案的這個過程裡面，你不能說這個影片是造假，對不對？不管它最後辦案的結果是如何啦！"],["黃次長謀信：我們看鑑定報告有時候不會是這樣子看，因為要全般的去看整個鑑定的結果，甚至相關的鑑定內容，這只是其中一句話，這句話是不是全部……"],["王委員鴻薇：我跟你們說，你們都為了鄭文燦……"],["黃次長謀信：沒有……"],["王委員鴻薇：拗得非常非常的辛苦啦！然後我也非常理解中正一分局為什麼要發新聞稿，因為中正一分局也不要背這個鍋，因為它事實上早在11月8號就把這些鑑識的結果已經送到地檢署了，它11月8號就送到地檢署，然後看我們一下子質詢、一下子開記者會，好像他們在故意拖延，所以人家中正一分局事實上是……我知道他們是送刑事局去鑑定啦！他們是送刑事局，因為我們只有兩大……一個你們調查局，一個就是刑事局嘛！所以刑事局鑑定已經回來，然後11月8號也送地檢署，然後你們就不肯……就一直把它噎著、摀著，然後希望一直混過去，可是真相終有大白的一天啊！我是覺得你們現在把它整個摀住，然後幫他這樣拗，很難看！不應該用整個國家機器去幫他硬拗，然後還拗成說什麼61.1，說它有深偽的可能，明明它不是結果嘛！因為它有兩次嘛！它有兩次的鑑識。現在人家中正一分局說沒有深偽的可能，然後鄭文燦把它拗成說這就是一個用AI來造假的影片，根本胡說八道！","我要求的是，我們的國家機器應該維持整個的中立，不要為任何一個政治人物幫他擦脂抹粉，然後最後陪葬的是什麼？陪葬的是我們整個警政司法體系，不要被他埋葬嘛！所以中正一分局今天為什麼跳出來？我也嚇一跳啊！我也覺得好奇怪，它為什麼不早講，怎麼要搞到11月8號，然後到現在才講？就是人家不願再背這個鍋。所以我覺得今天法務部……既然中正一分局已經提出報告，既然中正一分局已經用新聞稿來說明，你們可以把報告給我們司法法制委員會了嗎？可以了嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告……"],["王委員鴻薇：你不能請地檢署就這個影片的部分，給我們司法法制委員會嗎？我現在告訴你，人家都已經曝光啦！"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，那個是鑑定的結果，它還要有其他的調查方法去調查，所以它並不見得是一個結果、真正的結果，但是……"],["王委員鴻薇：我只要求鑑定結果，我們講了嘛！我們要的只是鑑定，你們現在辦案，我充分尊重檢察官辦案，但是這個影片到底是真的還是假的？這麼清楚的事情。那天調查局局長告訴我兩個禮拜就可以完成，不然你送調查局，局長說兩個禮拜就可以完成了。其實中正一分局也是很快啊！他們大概一個多禮拜、大概10天，他們也完成了！那你為什麼要拖到現在呢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，因為鑑定結果畢竟是檢察官偵查的核心，檢察官認為可符合揭露或公開的規範，自然就會揭露，他今天沒有告訴法務部，代表他本來就不可以告訴法務部，甚至他不應該告訴法務部，這是偵辦檢察官、個案檢察官他的權限，就檢察行政角度看，我不可以教他把鑑定結果向法務部報告，這反而是違法的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們只要求這個影片到底是真的、假的？這個影片很重要！如果你們不願意，是你們不願意還鄭文燦清白，我這邊直接紀錄啦！法務部不願意還鄭文燦清白！"],["黃次長謀信：不是，跟委員報告……"],["王委員鴻薇：大家都認為這個影片是真的，這個影片沒有造假，然後你們還是不願意公布，好，那就是代表你們也不願還他清白，是我王鴻薇願意還鄭文燦清白，趕快告訴我們，假的還是真的？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這影片到底真偽，檢察官他終究會偵查終結嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：我跟你講，你們這樣子是害鄭文燦啦！我直接說啦！堂堂一個行政院副院長坐在那邊，然後在網路上流傳這些影片，送去鑑識之後，送鑑識的報告也沒有辦法證明影片為假，否則的話你們早就敲鑼打鼓。我敢保證，如果這個影片確實造假的話，你們早就敲鑼打鼓，而且立刻去抓那個影片的散播者，你們事實上也都沒有。他也去告了，他告了以後也沒有，因為你不敢證明說影片為假。","好，我知道，因為下面還有。謝謝，謝謝，謝謝我們……"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，臺北地檢署在符合可以公開的時候，他就會公開，我們要相信臺北地檢署的檢察官。"],["王委員鴻薇：怎麼相信？這樣怎麼相信？"],["黃次長謀信：當符合相關可以公開的規定的時候，他就應該要公開，他認為現在還不能公開，代表他……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們不能公開，因為這個影片是真的，所以不能公開。好啦！我不再繼續耽誤時間，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。由於議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢，尚未確定，現在先確定議事錄。","請問各位，上次會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏？兩位委員有沒有意見？（無）沒有，好，沒有錯誤、遺漏，議事錄確定。","下一位謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員未到。","再下一位請賴香伶委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-36-23","speakers":["湯蕙禎","陳椒華","陳靜敏","曾銘宗","王鴻薇","賴香伶","江永昌","吳怡玎","林淑芬","劉建國","謝衣鳯","林思銘","鄭運鵬","吳琪銘"],"page_start":303,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員陳\n明文等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員林楚茵等20 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條\n文修正草案」案、 ( 五)委員蔡易餘等20 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條\n之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七) 委員游毓蘭等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正\n草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員周春米等27 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員何志偉\n等29 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 委員陳椒華等27 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員林靜儀等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟\n法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員莊競程等26 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八\n十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員陳靜敏等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正\n草案」案、( 八) 委員劉建國等16 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案；三、\n審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1129301_00002"}}},{"id":"148807","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148807","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d4234871a1ef29f2abd96d500069142ad034a1c986728e607a03221f877fe62585bb995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"11:24:53 - 11:32:17","影片長度":"00:07:24","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員陳明文等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員游毓蘭等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員周春米等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員何志偉等29人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳椒華等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林靜儀等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員莊競程等26人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員陳靜敏等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n三、審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-10-8-36-23"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":444,"end_time":"2023-11-29T11:32:17+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T11:24:53+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":664,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時24分）謝謝主席。秘書長，現在人際關係越來越複雜了。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：我想你要說，就再讓你說喔！同時不僅是過去的校園霸凌，還有職場上的霸凌，現在連網路也時刻在充斥著霸凌，這其實對人類心理都造成嚴重的壓力，也因此現在心理師是當前社會越來越重要的地位跟位置；尤其心理師在對當事人治療的時候都是會碰觸到當事人最私密的部分，甚至於在受虐、性侵或家暴案件中，心理師所掌握的是當事人不想再被提起的傷痛部分；也因此，如果客觀的事就能判定事情時，就不需要讓這個治療的心理師站在證人席上，陳述那些當事人不再想被揭開的傷痛。秘書長，可以認同吧？"],["吳秘書長三龍：認同。"],["劉委員建國：好，這個諮商心理師公會全聯會特別來向我陳情，也就是在刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條中，至今沒有把心理師納入得拒絕證言的範圍內，因此在刑事審判中，法院可以傳喚心理師作為證人取證，然後讓心理師與被治療者產生一種隔閡，治療上也產生一定的難度，所以我認為是應該把心理師納入拒絕證言權的職務之一。司法院、法務部這邊的立場應該一致吧？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個就今天的議案了、今天的議案，委員的提示很重要喔！"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。好，次長，OK嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：尊重大院決定。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。這個在刑事訴訟法第一百二十條中加入「心理師」這三個字，或許簡單，但是卻是重要啦！也就是說，司法院應該也清楚，你們在110年的時候早就提出這個草案，然後也要把心理師納入拒絕證言權這個部分，但一拖就拖到112年，這個會期是本屆最後一個會期；諮商心理師全聯會上會期來向本席反映，已經到這個會期末，所以來不及協助排案，不過我也特別拜託我們召委，然後也跟司法院召開協調會，所以今天也感謝召委特別把這個案子排進來。但我要表達說，如果我們這幾位委員沒有積極地來做這樣子的處理，我想到時候屆期不連續，本屆就審不到了，所以我是把這個事情提醒一下，可能下列我要提到的事情，司法院也必須要更積極來因應做處理，好不好？"],["吳秘書長三龍：好，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：因為在第一百八十二條中也明確規定，律師也是得拒絕證言的職務之一，但律師事務所能不能進入到進行搜索及扣押資料？在今年6月16日憲法法庭112年憲判字第九號判決─檢調搜索律師事務所部分違憲，針對律師與被告、犯罪嫌疑人或潛在犯罪嫌疑人之間進行秘密溝通的文書及電磁紀錄等資料進行搜索或扣押，是違反保障律師工作權及被告訴訟權的意旨；針對律師事務所內部若確實有犯罪事證，必須進行搜索或扣押時，也必須要有適當的規劃，避免其他案件當事人的資料受到侵害。憲法法庭作出這樣的判決，司法院跟法務部要怎麼因應？什麼叫做適當的規劃，你們有開始模擬了嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這些我們會根據憲判字宣判的意旨來研議如何修法啦。"],["劉委員建國：研議修法？"],["吳秘書長三龍：嗯。"],["劉委員建國：不是，但是它說必須要有適當的規劃，這個適當規劃，秘書長，就你的理解，這個對於我們委員會要怎麼說明？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是說這個已經列入我們修法的範圍，這一部分我們刑事廳其實都有具體在做了。"],["劉委員建國：刑事廳都有具體在做？"],["吳秘書長三龍：在修法方面已經具體在研擬了。"],["劉委員建國：所以憲法法庭所指適當的規劃，是指希望司法院趕快去做這個法律的修正？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就如何修法，它已經都有明白宣示出來了。"],["劉委員建國：明白宣示出來？好，法務部呢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個憲判字裡面，其實在過渡期間二年內，它已經有具體指示該怎麼按照判決意旨來進行，二年內刑事訴訟法必須要按照憲判字意旨來進行相關修正。據我所知，司法院也進行相關修正，本部也積極參與。"],["劉委員建國：好，司法院積極，到現在有開過任何研討會嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：有。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們廳裡面都已經有主辦法官在處理了，因為這個憲判字有一定的……"],["劉委員建國：我的理解是你們到現在都沒有召開過研討會。"],["吳秘書長三龍：會儘速……"],["劉委員建國：秘書長有掌握嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個會儘速處理，而且……"],["劉委員建國：你不要等到114年發現快到期了，像這樣又趕鴨子上架。"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個我們會儘速處理，因為那個憲判字已經明白宣示出來了。"],["劉委員建國：法務部的資料顯示，2020年到2022年，共有20件律師事務所被搜索的案件，20件有18件是律師為嫌疑人，2件為律師事務所為犯罪地，但在憲法法庭第9號判決後，搜索律師事務所，除了秘密溝通不能取證外，其他的證物搜索、扣押必須要有適當的規劃。現在在沒有明確的制度出來前，基層的檢調到底要不要再去律師事務所搜索？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，事實上在這個憲判字做出來之前，本部已經透過內部的函釋處理，對律師事務所搜索跟扣押，幾乎是按照憲判字的意旨進行搜索跟扣押，原則上我們對被告之第三人不進行搜索跟扣押，基本上已經滿接近憲判字的意旨，實務上已經這樣做了。"],["劉委員建國：所以不會因為9號判決綁手綁腳？"],["黃次長謀信：不會，現在實務上已經是這樣進行了。"],["劉委員建國：好，如果你講不會，我就沒有意見了。司法院呢？"],["吳秘書長三龍：跟委員說明，修法的法案我們已經草擬出來了，會儘速徵詢專家學者的意見。"],["劉委員建國：你們草擬出來，到底有討論過嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：有，我們刑事廳有專責法官，這個修法草案都出來了。"],["劉委員建國：好啦！剛才次長說不會綁手綁腳，你們又在草擬，我就提醒到這個地方，但是我還是希望不要到最後一個會期……。兩年對不對？114年，我們是不是有機會再回來審視你的進度？到時候再來討論了，好不好？好，謝謝你們，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝劉建國委員。","所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢的時候有要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。謝衣鳯委員、林思銘委員、鄭運鵬委員所提的書面質詢均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-36-23","speakers":["湯蕙禎","陳椒華","陳靜敏","曾銘宗","王鴻薇","賴香伶","江永昌","吳怡玎","林淑芬","劉建國","謝衣鳯","林思銘","鄭運鵬","吳琪銘"],"page_start":303,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員陳\n明文等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員林楚茵等20 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條\n文修正草案」案、 ( 五)委員蔡易餘等20 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條\n之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七) 委員游毓蘭等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正\n草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員周春米等27 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員何志偉\n等29 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 委員陳椒華等27 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員林靜儀等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟\n法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員莊競程等26 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八\n十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員陳靜敏等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正\n草案」案、( 八) 委員劉建國等16 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案；三、\n審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1129301_00002"}}},{"id":"148806","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148806","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d4234862f0fed05bada56d500069142ad034a1c986728e607a03224142d2a0b64639c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:59:19 - 11:24:46","影片長度":"00:25:27","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員陳明文等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員游毓蘭等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員周春米等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員何志偉等29人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳椒華等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林靜儀等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員莊競程等26人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員陳靜敏等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n三、審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-10-8-36-23"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":1527,"end_time":"2023-11-29T11:24:46+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T10:59:19+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":597,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時59分）謝謝主席，我也是先請秘書長。秘書長，今天的自由時報報導又有烏龍判決、烏龍案件等等，那當然檢察署好像有相當的責任，檢察署和司法院應該共同都有責任和義務要去改正它。今天的案子你們知道嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為早上要……這個地方最重……"],["林委員淑芬：所以你們不知道？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為早上要忙著我們這部分的詢答。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那次長知道吧！"],["黃次長謀信：就是觀察勒戒裁定變成移轉管轄，結果我們還是把他送執行了。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！導致後來法官二審的時候也是烏龍判決，也造成三審的時候程序上的不恰當，所以這很荒謬！但我今天不是要講這個個案，今（2023）年10月16日士林地方法院法官蘇錦秀在法官論壇發文，他自己揭露他擔任陪席法官的一個案件，已經經過合議庭3名法官共同評議以後，庭長陳章榮卻拒絕在判決書簽名，違反民事訴訟法第二百二十七條前2項「為判決之法官，應於判決書內簽名」以及法院組織法第一百零五條的規定，他違反了這些規定不說，還以懲處來威脅書記官說：你不准公告判決主文，導致宣判當日沒有辦法依法公告主文，這是今年10月、上個月的事情。","這一個月媒體報導最高行政法院審理案件時，最高行政法院自己發現，一審的臺北高等行政法院法官周泰德明明沒有參加言詞辯論，還可以參與審判，違反刑事訴訟法第一百八十八條有關法官非參與裁判基礎之辯論者不得參與審判的規定，陪席法官彭康凡則在言詞辯論的筆錄當中簽名為審判長，這也明顯違法。老實說，我們真的是瞠目結舌。","11月14日司法院人事處公布人事審議委員會的決議，針對新北地方法院民事庭李昭融法官在審理過程中沒有向當事人說明合議停止訴訟程序後所產生的法律效果，也沒有提醒書記官注意後續的聯繫，導致當事人的案件被視為撤回起訴，影響訴訟權益很大，這是今年的事情。","2021年3月苗栗地方法院法官周靜妮對當事人動私刑，要少年當庭自我掌嘴、下跪，還涉及到欺負社工，揚言要在法院放火，周靜妮還長時間沒有審案，曠職達314小時，導致當事人、訴訟關係人拚命打電話到法院催辦。去年11、12月間就有14件當事人電詢案件進度，他去年12月28日家事未結案件達207件，其中最嚴重的是保護令案件有55件，家暴保護令是要即時處理的，他竟然有55件都沒有即時處理，延遲案件進行，而且影響當事人的權益。","我們剛剛所講的第一個案件就是蘇錦秀法官在論壇上發文的，陳章榮的事情，都已經是合議庭3個法官共同評議後了。針對這個案子你們也開了自律委員會，會議是用秘密進行的方式，沒有對外公開，最終的決議認定庭長簽名爭議沒有違失！自律委員會關起門來就沒有違失，但是大家都知道、心照不宣啦！裡面吵架吵什麼，外面的人都會知道。討論的過程並不是完全沒有爭議，最終決議是沒有違失，但裡面是有爭議的，一派是資深庭長，認為評議尚未完成，庭長並未違規，而是學妹公然挑戰學長，這在講什麼啊！另外一派的年輕法官包括曾經擔任庭長的邱姓受命法官，他認為言詞辯論都終結了，拜託！合議庭還共同評議完了，受命陪席法官陳章榮本人都進行評議了，雖然有爭執，也表決了，在他們3個人裡面投票是二比一，所以當天已經完成評議並作成結論了，他才回去撰寫這個判決。但是經過兩個禮拜以後，庭長不認帳翻桌了，宣判當天拒絕在判決書上簽名，違反了法院組織法第一百零五條。可是自律委員會說沒有違失，你們叫人家要怎麼相信司法啦！自己內部隨便亂搞都可以，關起門來資深的挺資深的，年輕的挺年輕的，就事論事到底有沒有完成啊！秘書長，你告訴我，共同評議然後有不同意見，有投票表決結果是二比一，作成結論，請問這有沒有完成評議？"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明，關於自律委員會這個也是有一定法……"],["林委員淑芬：不是，我們不要說這個個案啦！在共同評議時3個受命法官意見不一樣，所以大家來表決，結果是二比一，就這樣子確定了評議、完成結論，請問這樣有沒有完成評議？不要說這個個案啦！"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員剛剛所說的，有些已經涉及到實體的問題了。"],["林委員淑芬：他可以威脅書記官說不可以寫出來、不可以公告喔！"],["吳秘書長三龍：就實際上……"],["林委員淑芬：導致宣判當日也沒有依法公告宣判的主文耶！"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是這些事實是如何，已經涉及到事實認定……"],["林委員淑芬：秘書長，你在這裡不敢講啦！我再講一下，法官的自省機制徒具形式，檢討機制也沒有發揮主動的效能，我們在2011年通過法官法，隔年制定了法官倫理規範與各級法院法官自律實施辦法，明確規範法官的職務範圍、倫理守則，也針對不適任法官制定了一套淘汰和監督的評鑑機制，然而從2011年到現在法官違反職務、濫用職權的行為頻傳。我剛才說的都是今年的事情，近期還包括法官開庭態度不佳、性騷擾、職場霸凌，連基本的審理程序都不遵守，到最後你們自律委員會所有評議結果都是沒有違失，你叫大家怎麼相信司法院、怎麼相信司法、怎麼相信法官？對於法官違反職務上的義務，怠於執行職務或言行不檢等行為，法官法有沒有規範？有規範嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這就回復到規定，然後有些程序實體就個案如何認定的問題。"],["林委員淑芬：如何認定，到最後都不是送懲戒法庭，都是人審會、自律委員會，也不會送到評鑑委員會，然後自律委員會評議的結果都是沒有違失。法官法明明就已經訂得很清楚，有規範可以做為懲戒或監督法官的依據，法官法第十九條規定，法官於其獨立審判不受影響之限度內，還要受到職務監督，你們的職務監督包括制止法官違法行使職權、糾正法官不當言行及督促法官依法迅速執行職務，其實你們有行政權可以進行職務監督。法官法第二十條規定，當法官發生不當言行或違法行使職權時，各級法院院長都要善盡監督之責以亡羊補牢，避免法官失去其職務分際及自律能力。請問監察院有對你們提出糾正嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這涉及到個案……"],["林委員淑芬：你知道監察院調查周靜妮法官的違法狀況是怎麼寫的嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：周靜妮……"],["林委員淑芬：我剛才說2021年周靜妮動用私刑，要少年當庭自我掌嘴、下跪，欺負社工，揚言要在法院放火，監察院怎麼糾正你們的？"],["吳秘書長三龍：周靜妮這個案件現在在職務法庭……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你監察院是怎麼糾正你們的？你不知道啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：周靜妮的案件現在在職務法庭審理中。"],["林委員淑芬：職務法庭是另外一件事情啦！我現在是問監察院糾正你們、指出你們什麼問題？"],["吳秘書長三龍：假如委員有需要……"],["林委員淑芬：你們把每一個個案都當成別人的事，其實不是！監察院在調查周靜妮法官的違法行為後發現，他從104年就開始出現無故延宕羈押案件審理及辦案瑕疵等狀況，上述問題你們都沒有人察覺嗎？都沒有所謂的事前職務監督嗎？沒有對他進行職務監督，顯見職務監督機制是無效的、無功能的，院長都沒有在管的，法院也任由這些法官亂來都沒關係，沒有發揮預防功能啊！周靜妮本人對他的問題他怎麼宣稱？他怎麼避責？他的講法是什麼，你知道嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個涉及他個案如何……"],["林委員淑芬：你也不知道！你每個都說個案！個案、每個個案都是單一行為，還是行為慣性？這只是一個法官的個案，還是他的行為慣性？如果都遇到這種狀況，你的機制……我在問你的是自省的機制徒具形式，法官法第十九條淪為裝飾用，第二十條法院院長沒用、沒在管，其實我講的這些都是瀆職！周靜妮是這樣說的，他規避自己的責任說，「我有身心症」，也有可能真的是被身心症所擾。如果他主張他有身心症的話，那麼司法院沒有善盡關懷輔導責任；如果他有身心症，你們有沒有合理調整法官職務，協助法官調整身心，降低法官不適任的情形？通通都沒有！","此外，法官法第三十五條第六項規定，法官評鑑委員會為確定行為模式之必要，它就是必須要確定其是偶一為之的突發案件，還是這個法官的不當行為是不佳的辦案模式？他每件都這樣辦案的，還是這件突然抓狂？法官法第三十五條的評鑑委員會就規定了，要確定他的行為模式是忽然抓狂、亂辦，還是每件都這樣辦？所以法官法規定，「得就未經請求的違失情事，併予調查及審議」，進行行為模式的主動調查。但根據司改會調查，因為大家都向司改會陳情，而司改會調查顯示，掌管個案評鑑的法官評鑑委員會欠缺主動效能，從來都不啟動第三十五條第六項規定，所以徒法不足以自行，只是裝飾用，架空這個法律，因為大家省事事省，不想再惹事！至於判斷法官的不當行為到底是偶一為之，還是已經為不佳的辦案模式……法官法施行這幾年來，李昭融是新法第一件，也是唯一一件人民請求成立的案件！但因為李昭融法官而受害的民眾需要重新起訴，而且要重新繳納裁判費，還要花費勞力、時間重啟訴訟程序！運氣比較差的，有可能因為時效問題而沒有辦法再請求！由此可知，一般民眾對於不適任法官所造成的結果、受到的權利侵害風險與承擔的責任和痛苦，這叫人民怎麼相信司法院？","法官法修正之後，這些法律仍舊被架空、被冰起來不用，然後送自律委員會的案子都沒有違失！送自律委員會已經是輕輕放下了，該送法官評鑑委員會的都送自律委員會，該送懲戒法庭的都送人審會！以李昭融為例，他違反的是法官倫理規範且情節重大，這是你們法評會認為的，但你們認為他情節重大，還認定他沒有懲戒的必要而移送人審會，最後人審會只給予口頭警告！「阿娘喂」，這種亂來、亂判、亂搞的都沒關係，只得到一個口頭警告！就這種結果論，你讓不懂法律的老百姓如何相信你們的評鑑機制確實發揮了協助他們、監督司法品質的功能？又怎麼可能挽回對司法的信任？秘書長，這哪有辦法？你們法評會自己認為他情節重大，為什麼情節重大是送人審會？"],["吳秘書長三龍：對司法要有信心，要有信心。"],["林委員淑芬：我很想吐！你每次都講這句話，我覺得很不負責任！這句話很不負責任！秘書長說這些話不負責任！對立法院的立委不尊重！對人民、對法官法、對整個司法制度來講是一種侮辱！只會說要我們對你們有信心，這種喊話！","以司改會大量處理民眾申訴的經驗，不適任法官的被害人，通常一個法官不適任，受害者都不只一個。以我剛才說的李昭融為例，如果他時效請求權過了，然後他的權利受到侵害，這麼重大的情節你們只給口頭警告？但不適任法官的被害人通常不會只有一個，所以法官法第三十五條第六項明文規定，法官評鑑應針對法官行為模式來評鑑，才能確定法官不當行為到底是偶一為之，還是慣性素行不良的辦案模式？但你們從來沒有啟動！","我再說李昭融，李昭融已經惡貫滿盈了，2012年他曾經在審理案件時，那個的當事人是他的配偶所審理的，即李昭融的配偶審理的。李昭融想促成和解，開庭時直接打電話給他的法官配偶，討論要判誰輸贏。當事人開庭時覺得，這是在搞什麼？他覺得自己太委屈了！法官可以自己直接打電話給另一個當事者，直接說要判誰輸贏？當事人覺得委屈，邊啜泣邊說話。李昭融當庭模仿當事人啜泣的口吻，嘲弄、戲謔、當庭斥責當事人說：我們講法律，你們不懂的話就把嘴巴閉起來！一個小小的租賃案，你們要來多久？當時這個案件李昭融被認為問案態度不佳，違反審判獨立原則，也違反了法官倫理規範，在101年被監察委員彈劾！秘書長，彈劾過的法官，現在還在當法官，仍舊在侵害當事人的權益，今年再度被法評會認為他違反法官倫理且情節重大，今年喔！卻仍然沒有送到懲戒法庭，這是什麼意思？被彈劾也沒關係？事情弄到很大條，上新聞也沒關係？因為可以送自律委員會的就不會送評鑑委員會；可以送人審會的就不會送懲戒法庭，都會輕輕放下這樣子！現在都是這個邏輯嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個都有相關規定……"],["林委員淑芬：我問你，李昭融是被彈劾過的，看起來他就是每次都情節重大，到現在仍然在情節重大，但這個案件還是一樣繼續送人審會、口頭告誡而已，現在是怎樣？"],["吳秘書長三龍：人審會也是依規定來處理。"],["林委員淑芬：我問你，被彈劾過的，然後都情節重大，一而再、再而三，然後還一直持續，所以這不是偶一為之，是行為模式、辦案模式，他就是一直都這樣！人家之所以對司法、對法官不信任，就是因為這種人！但是你們不懲戒，也不用付出任何代價！司法院也在這裡，就像秘書長所講的，也不聞不問、也無動於衷，這樣要怎麼挽回人民對司法的信任？"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員講的其實都很重要……"],["林委員淑芬：既然很重要，那你告訴我要怎麼處理？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會深切檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：我再講周泰德。如同我剛剛所說，你可以不參與言詞辯論，那你還可以參與審判？然後你的陪席的法官還自己在審判長那裡簽名，這種狀況到底是一時失慮，還是知法犯法的辦案習慣？法評會不是只有保守到依個案來調查，而是應該要依據法官法第三十五條第六項的立法意旨，落實行為模式的調查，而發揮主動的效能；第三十五條第六項─得就未經請求之違失情事，併予調查及審議。你們曾經這樣調查過嗎？你們這幾年如果這樣，懲戒法院有過嗎？你們都送人審會而已，哪有可能？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這些都是按照規定啦，有一些程序，我們就是一個法制面嘛！"],["林委員淑芬：按照規定不是這樣子送人審會啦，按照規定也不是送自律委員會啦，按照規定來，我問你，被彈劾的法官要怎麼處理？監察院都彈劾了的法官要怎麼處理？按照規定，你告訴我。"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是看個案它怎麼去抑制那個結果啊？"],["林委員淑芬：違反審判獨立原則、問案態度不佳、違反法官倫理行為情節重大、而且被監察院彈劾，按照規定要怎麼處理？"],["吳秘書長三龍：彈劾的情況多種，所以這個也要看個案……"],["林委員淑芬：我跟你說喔！我們剛才這樣看起來，這每一件案子都讓人家瞠目結舌耶！顯示法官法2020年新法上路後，我剛才說李昭融是人民請求評鑑的第一件，也是唯一一件人民直接請求評鑑成功的個案啦。法官法以後呢？事實上像司改會沒有辦法代替當事人提起請求了，所以現在請求成立的案件都是要由機關、或團體、或律師公會提出，評鑑委員會喔？我們都在講說，你這個門檻其實已經阻隔民間要協助當事人的門檻了，然後評鑑委員會也應該要主動跟法扶合作，降低民眾或是經濟弱勢、或身心障礙、或是一般人對於請求個案評鑑的門檻，「請求評鑑」其實你們就是大事化小、小事化無了，但是現在連請求評鑑的門檻都很高，因此一般人其實沒有辦法請求評鑑。所以我們今天在這裡講最後一個訴求，你們對於評鑑委員會主動跟法扶合作，降低請求評鑑的門檻，我想你們是不樂意啦，因為要評鑑法官啊！大家都說希望門檻越高越好，免得在這裡處理不當「不適任法官」的問題，你們自己沒有辦法處理，還有派系、還有資深、偽資深的法官；再來就是說，要降低這個門檻還包括臺北以外的地區要設立辦事處或聯繫窗口，提供諮詢輔導和收件服務；我們要讓請求評鑑的可近性提高，民眾才有機會，然後才有全民一起監督法官的空間。但是我知道站在司法院和法官的立場上，當然評鑑的可近性越低越好，門檻越高越好啦。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員，這些提示都很重要、都很重要啦！"],["林委員淑芬：我剛才說的，那你要做嗎？我不要說那幾個個案啦，這樣跟法扶合作、臺北以外的地區設立辦事處或聯繫窗口，然後提供諮詢和輔導及收件服務，讓民眾有機會、有可近性請求評鑑。"],["吳秘書長三龍：這些我會……"],["林委員淑芬：這幾項很具體，而且也很簡單。"],["吳秘書長三龍：這些都會記錄下來，我們會……"],["林委員淑芬：你們要不要做啦？記錄下來不是問題啦。"],["吳秘書長三龍：請相關廳處來研議、研議啦！"],["林委員淑芬：研議啊？這種事情有什麼好研議的？不爭議而且是應該的，這種事還要再研議什麼啦？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然這個……"],["林委員淑芬：你們沒辦法去職務監督你們的法官啦、你們的院長也很忙啦、同事跟同事中間大家也不要吵架、破壞和諧啦！不然當事者受委屈、受冤枉了，我可以去請求法官評鑑的，這個門檻可以降低嗎？這樣而已啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以再研議嘛！我們會研議。"],["林委員淑芬：研議，人家的權利都受損了，我剛才說的這幾個違法，再來當事人權益都受損，你們去想想看，老實說越說越監督，我們是越沒有信心，感覺越壞，我沒有辦法再說了。好啦，感謝！"],["主席：好，謝謝林淑芬委員。","下一位林思銘委員、林思銘委員、林思銘委員未到。","再下一位請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-36-23","speakers":["湯蕙禎","陳椒華","陳靜敏","曾銘宗","王鴻薇","賴香伶","江永昌","吳怡玎","林淑芬","劉建國","謝衣鳯","林思銘","鄭運鵬","吳琪銘"],"page_start":303,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員陳\n明文等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員林楚茵等20 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條\n文修正草案」案、 ( 五)委員蔡易餘等20 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條\n之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七) 委員游毓蘭等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正\n草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員周春米等27 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員何志偉\n等29 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 委員陳椒華等27 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員林靜儀等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟\n法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員莊競程等26 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八\n十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員陳靜敏等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正\n草案」案、( 八) 委員劉建國等16 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案；三、\n審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1129301_00002"}}},{"id":"148805","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148805","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d42348fce4f0939503fba5f30f66da3334563ec986728e607a0322e7f4788ffc62fd1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"11:11:55 - 11:22:13","影片長度":"00:10:18","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。\n三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案。\n(第三案如未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答，相關提案請於12月1日中午12時前提出。)\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-10-8-22-9"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":618,"end_time":"2023-11-29T11:22:13+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T11:11:55+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1545,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（11時12分）主席好，我想請陳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：鄭委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：主委好。因為今年我們原能會改組成核安會，所以就有很多相關的部分，第一個，我想問的還是有關於整個日本排放核污染水的部分，因為我們看了一下，有關於國家海域放射性物質擴散預警及安全評估應對計畫裡頭，大概有3筆預算跟這個部分有關，然後發現其中有關於「環境輻射偵測」的業務計畫跟「原子能科學發展」工作計畫下面，這兩筆預算都較上一年度減列，是什麼原因？可不可以簡單說明一下？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，謝謝委員。應對計畫是從今年開始，112年到115年共4年，剛開始是編列4.8億，1年1.2億，但是它是逐年審。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。"],["陳主任委員東陽：明年是因為國科會統刪，所以我們各個子計畫的部分又做了一些調整。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，是國科會統刪的原因。"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：今年其實他們開始排放核污染水，我在想我們對於這部分的檢測一定要特別加緊。因為今天的時間比較短，我就持續再往下。針對這部分，你們之後再用相關的書面資料或者到我們辦公室說明……"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，沒有問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為如果是國科會統刪，那我們再來細部瞭解一下相關的原因。","我發現在整個福島核廢水當中會出現鍶90、碘131、銫137，這些是不是都在我們監測範圍裡頭？我為什麼這樣問？我就直接把我看到的表格列出來，這張表格是我們從放射性物質海域擴散海洋資訊平台裡面點出來的，那麼取樣的時間……它裡面的核種只有銫137跟氚，其他的都沒有，對於其他沒有的核種，我們有沒有同時做檢測？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，我剛才回答前面委員的質詢就有提到，在特定的海域、離島跟黑潮流經的部分，我們有做其他核種的一些檢驗，主要的部分其實是在銫跟氚，這個是延續國際所有標準的作法。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好，因為我們跟日本的地理位置實在太接近，所以我們的關心一定是全面的，其實是希望各方面，比方說銫137，最低可測值（MDA）都有出來。我想要特別講的是氚的部分，因為氚全部都沒有出來，我想問氚沒有出來是因為它完全沒有還是它低於MDA？"],["陳主任委員東陽：自然環境的背景值是0.5貝克除以每升，我們simulation是10的負6次方，它其實是遠低於機器可以量測的範圍，叫Minimum Detective Amount（MDA）。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們有沒有這個數字？只是因為它低於MDA，所以我們就測不出來嗎？是測不出來還是有測出來，只是它低於MDA，所以我們就沒有把它表示出來？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們的機器應該是測不出來啦！"],["鄭委員正鈐：測不出來？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以這些部分都是測不出來的狀態，並不是有測出來，可是它低於MDA所以我們沒有把它表示出來。","我想問一個問題，日本東京電力公司排放核污染水，他們特別強調有經過多核種除去設備（ALPS）才把它排放出來，對不對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是嘛！那我想問一下，ALPS可以過濾哪些輻射物質？重點是它能夠過濾多少氚？"],["陳主任委員東陽：第一個，ALPS是Advanced Liquid Processing System，其實64個核種在原來的核廢水裡面大概過濾了62種，但兩種沒辦法過濾……"],["鄭委員正鈐：哪兩種沒辦法過濾？"],["陳主任委員東陽：一個是氚，一個是碳14。剛才我有回答前面的委員，其實排放出去的時候，碳14已經低於日本標準的十分之一，所以我們主要的關注點是在氚。氚其實是跟水一樣，它沒有辦法過濾，所以我們主要檢驗的標準其實是在氚的部分，跟委員說明。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我們這邊也很清楚知道，透過ALPS的處理之後，氚跟碳14是沒有辦法處理的嘛！對不對？所以我們對這部分其實一定是要有更高的標準去檢測跟監督才可以。主委也很清楚知道ALPS的限制，就一個民意代表的角度，我們對這部分一定會更加強監督，因為這對民眾的健康有非常直接的關係。","我再往下走，我想問一下，這是漁業署漁貨物生物氚抽驗結果的報告，這個裡面對於生物氚也全部都是MDA的狀態，這個檢測是我們單位檢測的還是漁業署檢測的？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是我們單位檢測。漁業署抽樣，國原院檢測。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是我們單位檢測的嘛！對不對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們在找這個資料的時候，其實坦白說很難找，我們去海洋資訊平台找的時候，透過這個海水監測，其實我們按了好多鍵才到了一個可以看到的地方。本席事實上有提一個主決議，海洋資訊平台已經開放當眾查詢，但並非民眾都能夠知悉該系統的操作方式，剛剛別的委員也有提到，它其實並不是那麼樣的friendly，所以希望核安會能夠定期公布檢測的結果，然後讓我們很清楚地知道目前的環境到底是怎麼樣，因為這一排也是要排很多年，你知道嗎？而且越排很可能它的濃度會越高，所以我們希望這個部分能夠主動公布，也希望主委能夠支持這樣的主決議。"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，謝謝委員的建議，第一個，我們這個平台的操作不夠user friendly，我自己非常認同，我們會來想辦法；第二個，剛才我們提到一些檢測的問題，其實是漁業署抽樣，我們檢測，但是是送回給原來的漁業署發布。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["陳主任委員東陽：但是在我們跨部會的整合平台、整合儀表板，它其實是一起公布的，跟委員說明。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。最後我還有兩點，我跟主席借一點時間。我們改為三級單位之後，我發現我們的人是增加的，這個部分就是我們今年的人比去年多了19人，預算當中多19人。我們單位組改之後降級了，可是人還增加，大概是用在什麼地方？事後到本辦公室說明好不好？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，這個部分應該是有一點誤解，我們完全可以解釋，我會跟委員說明。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好的。另外，我在上次質詢的時候有特別提到一個部分，之前我們有提到各縣市有挑出40處潛在的場址。關於潛在場址這個部分，當時我有特別問了，在竹竹苗這邊，這40個潛在場址當中有幾個？我想問具體在什麼地方，你們有給我一個回復，但這個回復基本上等於是沒有回復，你們就把104年5月份台電提出來的低放射性廢棄物最終處置計畫書整理整理之後，又把它拿來給我。我要問的問題就是，坦白說，就幾十個字，你們也沒有給我，我想這個部分之後你們再來本辦公室說明。"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，沒有問題，這個題目我們可以非常清楚、完整的說明，我先跟委員報告，謝謝。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我們也很期待，到本辦公室的原因，我在想說也許你們有些部分覺得不太適合直接公開。本辦公室關注，所以我們希望能夠進一步瞭解細部，好不好？"],["陳主任委員東陽：瞭解，沒有問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，謝謝主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝鄭委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，另外有萬美玲、劉世芳委員提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-22-9","speakers":["鄭麗文","張廖萬堅","陳秀寳","黃國書","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","陳靜敏","張其祿","范雲","陳椒華","鄭正鈐","萬美玲","劉世芳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查 113 年度\n中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1129302_00001"}}},{"id":"148804","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148804","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d423486157856adcb2bdb2f30f66da3334563ec986728e607a0322dcac665c54651f9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳椒華","委員發言時間":"11:04:20 - 11:11:46","影片長度":"00:07:26","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。\n三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案。\n(第三案如未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答，相關提案請於12月1日中午12時前提出。)\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-10-8-22-9"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":446,"end_time":"2023-11-29T11:11:46+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T11:04:20+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1504,"blocks":[["陳委員椒華：（11時4分）謝謝召委，請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：陳委員好。"],["陳委員椒華：主委好。福島核災已經過了12年，今年6月日本東京電力公司所發布的報告顯示，在福島第一核電廠港灣內捕獲到的海水魚，體內不但輻射值超標，而輻射元素「銫」的含量也達到每千克1.8萬貝克，超過了日本食品衛生法所規定標準的180倍，所以民間對於核廢水的疑慮並不是沒有依據的，應該持續監測。主委，你說是不是？"],["陳主任委員東陽：的確是，以科學的標準，參照國際的原則、國際的標準，那麼細節這個部分，其實我們會裡面是有一些瞭解。"],["陳委員椒華：核安會有掌握到什麼嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：有，細節的部分我請張組長說明。"],["張組長淑君：報告委員，我們也掌握到日本在福島當地周邊有檢測到含銫超標，我們在這一次臺日之間核安的資訊交流，也有特別交流……。"],["陳委員椒華：掌握到的資訊可以給本席跟我們教文委員會嗎？"],["張組長淑君：可以，跟委員報告，因為這個魚種是當地特有的魚種，喜歡在福島出水口迴流，東電也有……"],["陳委員椒華：這是什麼魚種？"],["張組長淑君：魚種的問題比較專業一點，我會後把這些相關的……"],["陳委員椒華：沒關係，我再請教主委，就是把掌握到的資料提供出來，甚至可以公開，把資訊公開放在網站。"],["陳主任委員東陽：好。"],["陳委員椒華：另外，為了化解疑慮，政府應該協助人民檢測樣品，其實日本有很多民間單位設置輻射監測的儀器，讓人民可以進行檢測，讓社會安心。前一陣子我們有民眾送樣品到民間的檢測中心，要求做全魚檢測，全魚檢測就是包括骨頭，尤其我們知道那邊有秋刀魚的漁場，我們有很多人會吃秋刀魚的骨頭嘛！目前核研所是做全魚檢測，包括骨頭，但是我們也看到有民間檢測中心拒絕做全魚檢測，所以核安會怎麼樣來監督民間單位服務的專業度，並且能夠落實、能夠做到民眾的需求？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分其實主要是兩個研究室，檢測的地方一個是國研院，一個是我們的輻射偵測中心，在高雄，那麼這邊提到的陽明交通大學這個部分，他們其實是做食品安全的檢測，是不一樣的，我跟委員做一些說明。另外，生物氚的部分，其實行政院在今年9月27日有一個量能的提升計畫，到明年6月大概有6,000萬，生物氚的檢驗實驗室從本來的1家變成3家。"],["陳委員椒華：不過，主委我剛剛提到的就是銫嘛，我們知道銫會被骨頭吸收，然後它的半衰期也很長，所以我們要避免吃到含有超高銫同位素的骨頭的話，一定要做全魚檢測，這個部分也希望核安會能夠督導相關的檢測單位，包括讓民間檢測單位能夠接受，可以做全魚檢測就要做。"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，我們瞭解。"],["陳委員椒華：好，瞭解也希望能夠確實去做到，好嗎？主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒有問題。"],["陳委員椒華：再來，很多人為了健康去買我們畫面上看到的能量石，然後也戴在身上，過海關的時候才發現能量超標，如果不是因為過海關，可能會繼續佩戴。長時間佩戴能量石，尤其像是掛在我們的脖子等等或是接觸身體的皮膚，如果輻射超標，對人體會有危害。上網查發現坊間有很多這樣子的商品，請問我們核安會怎麼樣監督？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們核安會其實過去有注意到這個新聞，過去也有相關的案例，輻防組張組長可以做一些比較細節的說明。"],["陳委員椒華：主委，核安會可不可以去蒐集坊間的檢測，去識別化是哪一家，然後能夠有一些檢測的數據讓民眾瞭解，如果有過高的輻射值可以加強宣傳，避免受到傷害，可以這樣嗎？"],["張組長淑君：報告委員，現在我們針對天然放射性物質產生負離子的狀況，第一個，我們除了宣導，然後有成立網頁以外……"],["陳委員椒華：負離子是什麼particle？"],["張組長淑君：就是天然放射，因為它都標榜是負離子……"],["陳委員椒華：你說的負離子是beta負嗎？還是什麼？"],["張組長淑君：是天然超鈾裡頭的一個核種……"],["陳委員椒華：哪一種核種？"],["張組長淑君：比較容易產生氡氣，所以會對民眾吸入……"],["陳委員椒華：本席剛剛建議的就是你們蒐集一些去測測看，然後給本席一個數據。"],["張組長淑君：有的。"],["陳委員椒華：如果可以的話，我們上網去做這些宣傳，能夠提醒小心，這樣可以嗎？"],["張組長淑君：跟委員報告一下，我們現在已經有跟標檢局還有食藥署來合作，由他們去做一些商品風險的抽驗，然後都有送到我們這邊檢測，相關檢測結果有異常的，其實我們是有公布……"],["陳委員椒華：那數據可以給本席嗎？"],["張組長淑君：可以。"],["陳委員椒華：好，謝謝，謝謝召委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝陳委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-22-9","speakers":["鄭麗文","張廖萬堅","陳秀寳","黃國書","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","陳靜敏","張其祿","范雲","陳椒華","鄭正鈐","萬美玲","劉世芳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查 113 年度\n中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1129302_00001"}}},{"id":"148803","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148803","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d42348ce6259f95e2f1cd836d81ac9a092bbedc986728e607a0322e0b9b733f13866c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張其祿","委員發言時間":"11:05:43 - 11:11:22","影片長度":"00:05:39","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算。\n三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。\n四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。\n五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部中央氣象署單位預算。\n（二、工程會預算案與一、業務報告合併詢答後進行處理，四及五已詢答完畢，本日進行處理）\n（工程會預算提案於112年11月27日中午12時截止收件）\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-10-8-23-10"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":339,"end_time":"2023-11-29T11:11:22+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T11:05:43+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1424,"blocks":[["張委員其祿：（11時5分）謝謝召委，我們請吳主委，謝謝。"],["主席：主委請。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員好。"],["張委員其祿：主委好。我今天最後一個質詢，我這邊是要請教一個比較在地性一點的問題，當然也不見得完全是……但是可以由我們工程會監管。我先跟主委報告，我們在臺北市文山區水源快速道路旁邊有蓋一些社宅，而且這個還蠻大的是住都中心在做的，它大概將近上千戶，這個我們自己在走訪時就發現一個大的問題。是什麼？其實很多在地的包括里長自己都說不是很清楚，坦白說土地就是政府的，然後住都中心內政部他們就蓋，當然我們瞭解住都中心，它就是要趕快落實政見，8年要20萬戶根本現在是完全跳票，現在都急著要趕快弄嘛！是沒有錯啦，問題就是說他們跟在地整體的溝通，很多里長甚至都不知道就發生了、就蓋了、就開始了，我們當然知道重大公共工程都是需要經過一些不管是環評或者是社會影響評估等等這些事情，坦白說，我們在這個制度上並不是很健全，也許促參法那邊都還寫得比較仔細。不過促參是歸財政部那邊，如果今天有民間參與的話，它在促參法第六條之一那邊都寫得蠻清楚，你要公聽會、要專家學者、地方居民、民間團體這些全部都要進來。可是這種由政府直接就下來的，尤其它現在很趕，覺得我管你有沒有配套咧，反正我現在急著要交差，要把這個數量弄出來，所以反而這個……照片現場，很多的鄰里長真的都不知道，市府那邊溝通其實也不見得有講得很清楚。","所以我的意思就是要請教主委，我們到底在這種重大公共政策上，我們的母法行政程序法也說，這些重大公共工程是要經過這個公聽的程序、聽證的程序等等這些，但是是不是每一個，現在好像每一個都是交到目的事業主管機關自己去搞定，但是他們在制度上，到底這個社會溝通夠不夠？真的我們到了地方，一聽我們很驚訝說哇！就比如說公告就公告一下就不見了，然後搞不好里長連參加的機會都沒有，然後就過去了，就說好就是就要做了，可是這一做下去，哇！不得了！像這些地方，因為臺北市都很稠密，交通配套也沒做好，以後大量的人員進去，我們雖然支持要趕快多蓋社宅，可是旁邊的配套還有對社區的影響我們要關注嘛！主委怎麼看？這個程序上，我們如果監管，這件事怎麼做？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我覺得無論是一個公共建設也好，像這樣地區上社區的一個建設也好，當地的一個交通環境的考量跟民眾的溝通本來就應該要進行，所以這個部分如果住都中心沒有去考量到，我們會來跟他協調，請他們去注意這個事情。"],["張委員其祿：其實真的要麻煩主委這邊，坦白說，這個東西它涉及很多方，而且你也可以理解住都中心他們的想像，他們的目標就很簡單，就是社宅的數量要多、要趕快蓋，而且地又是政府的很容易處理，它真的不太需要跟地方有太多的溝通。但問題是住在當地的住民，就覺得你們沒有想得很清楚，而且他們也缺乏溝通的機會。所以我是覺得說，這個在法制上，是不是未來我們還是要給出更明確的指引，也就是工程會這邊，就在你們自己這一端，有沒有辦法呢？雖然這也是要跨部會去協調，當然主委也等於是政委的概念，是不是有辦法去協調呢？不然的話，各行其是我們覺得也滿恐怖的，因為它愛做不做的，內政部它到底要不要做，我們也不清楚。"],["吳主任委員澤成：也許不用動到法令，我們在計畫的一個審核跟執行過程當中，可以納入這個環節，我們可以來處理。"],["張委員其祿：這樣好不好，就是以這樣一個特定的案例，能不能麻煩主委你們去協調一下，尤其跟住都中心再講清楚一點，然後他們跟內政部之間，就是當他們在進行這些事情時，雖然這是良善政策，我們當然是支持社宅蓋越多越好，但是它跟鄰里社會的溝通，是不是要符合或是至少要向人家看齊，比如像促參法，人家財政部的作法的這種方式，我覺得這都是可以比照的，是不是也請把這樣一個結果，就是你們追蹤這個案例的結果，能夠給我們辦公室跟我們交通委員會？"],["吳主任委員澤成：這個個案我們會再看怎麼樣來給他們處理，通案看怎麼樣來建構。"],["張委員其祿：對！對！對！2個月之內提供給我們辦公室跟交通委員會。謝謝。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張其祿委員發言。","登記質詢委員均已經發言完畢，作以下的決定：一、報告及詢問完畢。二、委員趙正宇、許智傑、傅崐萁、劉櫂豪所提的書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或是未及答復部分，請公共工程委員會儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-23-10","speakers":["陳雪生","洪孟楷","李昆澤","陳歐珀","何欣純","陳椒華","陳素月","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳培瑜","邱顯智","張其祿","趙正宇","許智傑","傅崐萁","劉櫂豪"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129303","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129303_00002","1129303_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關\n於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算\n案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部\n中央氣象署單位預算","agenda_id":"1129303_00001"}}},{"id":"148802","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148802","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d42348ba3a169bb591f92836d81ac9a092bbedc986728e607a032214c0d4092921a8965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱顯智","委員發言時間":"10:54:45 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11:05:33","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算。\n三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。\n四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。\n五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部中央氣象署單位預算。\n（二、工程會預算案與一、業務報告合併詢答後進行處理，四及五已詢答完畢，本日進行處理）\n（工程會預算提案於112年11月27日中午12時截止收件）\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-10-8-23-10"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":648,"end_time":"2023-11-29T11:05:33+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T10:54:45+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1390,"blocks":[["邱委員顯智：（10時55分）謝謝主席。我想請主委。"],["主席：請主委，謝謝。"],["邱委員顯智：主委好！"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員，你好！"],["邱委員顯智：主委，新竹市寡婦樓這個都更案的起源是國防部政治作戰局在馬政府時代委託內政部營建署辦理都更招商，結果在民國103年的時候內政部營建署招商，到最後只有理銘一家通過資格審查，後來它確實也拿到這個案子，之後當時主辦都更招商的營建署城鄉分署長洪嘉宏在106年的時候因為寡婦樓案收了昌益集團2,000萬的賄款以及在新竹另外兩個遠雄的都更案索賄4,500萬被收押，去年被臺北地院依貪污治罪條例判處8年2個月。","我要問主委的是政府採購法第五十條寫得非常清楚，有影響採購公正之違反法令行為，就應該撤銷決標、終止契約或解除契約，並得追償損失。我其實就這個案子質詢過國防部，也問過內政部，到現在國防部的態度應該是說還是讓人覺得非常的保留，國防部到目前為止也都沒有去處理，到底是要終止契約還是解除契約。監察委員的調查也認為國防部是依政府採購法來委託給內政部，這是非常清楚的。工程會今天報告寫得非常清楚，如果已經發生了政府採購法第三十一條、第五十條、第一百零一條的狀況，根本不用等到刑事起訴或判決，就應該要依行政程序法規定啟動行政調查程序，並且依個案實際情形審認核處，不受到這個刑事起訴或者是判決拘束，更何況這個案件已經都一審判8年2個月了。主委，就這個部分的話，是不是國防部應該要啟動行政調查？"],["吳主任委員澤成：跟委員報告，雖然這個案子不是用採購法，它是用都更條例去進行的，但我們檢視它的採購相關作業，它是在招標的階段就可以去撤銷最優的申請人，它從那邊撤銷之後，後面就可以解約了，所以它應該去進行這個事情。"],["邱委員顯智：它應該進行這個事，可是到目前為止國防部的說法還是怕被追償等等這樣的理由。","第二個、主委剛剛提到這個不是依照政府採購法，但是這個恐怕有爭議，因為監委的調查報告也認為國防部是依照政府採購法去委託給內政部。我去質詢內政部，內政部的說法就是現在內政部與國防部之間已經沒有這個委託契約存在了，所以應該是要國防部去做處理、去審認。一個已經因為收賄被判刑，廠商也非常清楚的是透過行賄取得了這樣的資格，而且只有這一家通過資格審查，判決書都已經寫得非常清楚了，最後它也得到這個案件了。主委，你剛剛提到，它其實是在這個招標的程序就可以取消這個最有利標的審查，依照你的看法，到底現在國防部是不是應該要馬上去跟廠商終止這個契約？"],["吳主任委員澤成：國防部與內政部之間是一個行政委託的程序，它不用什麼法令……"],["邱委員顯智：是，這個已經很清楚了。"],["吳主任委員澤成：對，內政部去招標，才跟這個事件會有關係……"],["邱委員顯智：對。"],["吳主任委員澤成：所以應該是要由國防部去跟內政部要求，從這邊去撤銷原來這個申請人的資格，再去做解約動作。"],["邱委員顯智：對，撤銷原來的申請人資格，因為他是透過行賄所取得的嘛，對不對？"],["吳主任委員澤成：對。"],["邱委員顯智：這個非常清楚啦，你今天其實也提到機關不用等到起訴或是判決，因為我在問國防部的時候，國防部也一度回答我說：委員，這個才一審而已啊！應該要到二審、三審定讞之後才來處理嘛！顯然今天這個報告裡面，依照公共工程委員會的見解，事實上不用起訴，甚至判決的時候就可以依照行政程序去做行政調查了嘛！主委，是不是請工程會在兩週內釐清，新竹寡婦樓案是否應該由國防部立刻啟動行政調查，並且發函給相關的部會，這樣可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們邀請兩個部會來釐清一下，提供給他們比較可行的作法。"],["邱委員顯智：是啦！因為你的見解，可能都還沒有起訴，就可以去行政調查了，他現在一審已經被判8年2個月，而且其實他說什麼二審、三審定讞，我覺得基本上都是推託之詞！因為判決書裡面被告都已經認罪了，對不對？都已經這麼清楚了，結果還不願意去做終止，這是非常不應該的！"],["吳主任委員澤成：他們也許是對法律的執行不瞭解，或者有什麼另外的考量，我們把它釐清一下。"],["邱委員顯智：好，希望兩週之內能夠給我們一個報告，並發函給相關機關。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["邱委員顯智：主委另外一題，抱歉再給我2分鐘。這個是公共工程委員會在11月8號發布一個「道路塌陷及鄰房基礎淘空之防範指引」以及「工程高空作業災害之防範指引」強化工程監督機制，因為我國的高墜事件實在是太嚴重了。除適用政府公共工程外，也將民間工程納管，但是從工程會的指引來看，業者沒有落實職安相關的規定，政府的監管密度不夠是最主要的問題。我們也可以看到近年來營建工程業重大職災的問題很嚴重，而政府採購法裡面針對職安的問題，應依工程規模、特性，分析潛在施工危險，編製符合職安生衛法規安全衛生圖說這些規範，並且量化編列安全費用等等之類的。但是主委，這樣的制度應該也要引入民間的工程，而不只是公共工程嘛！日本就有這樣的作法，我想請教主委，工程會是否可以研擬相關的指引，針對民間工程的這個部分，比照日本的作法。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員這個部分，公共工程我們已經正在要求，民間的部分我們會來協調內政部，透過它的建築法令跟建造管理來落實這個部分。"],["邱委員顯智：好，那請公共工程委員會2個月內，就強化民間工程職安規範跟費用編列，以及企業辦理情形提出一個書面報告給本委員會。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["邱委員顯智：最後一個就是強化汰除不良廠商的機制，我們今天看到公共工程委員會的報告裡面說，要運用工程履歷引進優秀廠商。其實主委在這個地方也一再強調，廠商的工程履歷是非常重要的，我印象非常深刻，主委提到說不能夠讓其他的機關受害，事實上很多問題的廠商，卻持續拿到政府的大案子，我也覺得非常的不解。例如竹北天坑案5次坍塌，最後搞出一臺特斯拉掉到天坑裡面，賄賂竹縣官員這樣的一個豐邑建設，最近又拿到了新竹市最大「建功安居」的都更案，大家都非常憂心。主委，就這部分強化汰除不良廠商機制，有沒有什麼精進的作為？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們一方面建議將這些不良廠商事蹟的網路資料建置起來，一方面要求機關在採購的時候要去釐清確認這些不良的廠商，讓它不要經過評選或者納入它的對象，讓優良的汰除掉劣弊的。"],["邱委員顯智：對，我們這邊的建議，就是廠商的履歷應該要納入，第一個，違反採購法的紀錄，它都已經違反採購法多次了，那其他機關有可能會受害。第二個，就是影響採購公正違反法令的行為；再來就是違反勞基法，比如說它對待勞工的紀錄非常不良；職安法屢次發生職災，像高墜事件等等；還有性別工作平等法等等的紀錄，應該都要納入廠商履歷。也請工程會在1個月內提出報告，針對強化汰除不良廠商機制，將這一個廠商的履歷應該要如何納入等等，提出一個書面報告。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["邱委員顯智：好，謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝顯智委員。下一位請張其祿委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-23-10","speakers":["陳雪生","洪孟楷","李昆澤","陳歐珀","何欣純","陳椒華","陳素月","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳培瑜","邱顯智","張其祿","趙正宇","許智傑","傅崐萁","劉櫂豪"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129303","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129303_00002","1129303_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關\n於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算\n案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部\n中央氣象署單位預算","agenda_id":"1129303_00001"}}},{"id":"148801","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148801","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d42348f1677a3b10c4d07636d81ac9a092bbedc986728e607a032209fd7cf4a47809cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:49:34 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10:54:34","影片長度":"00:05:00","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算。\n三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。\n四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。\n五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部中央氣象署單位預算。\n（二、工程會預算案與一、業務報告合併詢答後進行處理，四及五已詢答完畢，本日進行處理）\n（工程會預算提案於112年11月27日中午12時截止收件）\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-10-8-23-10"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":300,"end_time":"2023-11-29T10:54:34+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T10:49:34+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1362,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時49分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員你好。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委早安。跟主委請教幾個問題，第一個是關於採購法的部分，感謝在您的任內通過第四條的修正，讓藝文人士相關採購有很多的空間跟彈性，可是我們要說的是，還是有些問題需要調整，因為開始實施後，在現場實務的運作上其實還是有一些狀況，所以是不是可以拜託主委兩件事情？第一個，盤整2019年修法後，採用採購法第四條第二項案例的數量及執行狀況；第二個，由工程會主動邀請文化部及相關利害關係人來盤點檢討2019年採購法修正後，現行的藝文採購實務上還遇到哪些困境及問題，並進行相關調整跟修正，這個部分可不可以請主委幫幫忙？"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，我們馬上來做。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主委。","第二個，關於體育採購其實也有一些問題，我跟主委分享一個實際的案例及狀況，如果臺灣的球隊要代表國家出去打球，兩個禮拜後就要出國了，但籃協可能會說要用體育署的補助出國，所以按照採購法規，必須要在出發前的兩個禮拜啟動招標，確定選手名單才能夠去訂機票，可是其實很多國際大會比賽可以讓大家在比賽前一天才確認選手名單，原因是因為選手的狀態其實會一直改變及調整，所以如果可以越晚確定名單，幾乎是可以確定能夠由最強的選手代表國家出國，但礙於相關採購法規，這樣的不合理現象，請問主委，如果是您，你覺得……"],["吳主任委員澤成：這個在採購法上面，我們應該要來協助他們……"],["陳委員培瑜：有沒有什麼空間可以請您……"],["吳主任委員澤成：因應他的狀況，配合他的需要來做採購。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是如果體育署或是單項協會目前都卡在這件事情上，他們可能不像主委對於相關法規有這麼多的理解，您會有什麼樣的建議跟幫助？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們來瞭解、來協助他們。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。所以這個部分如果是這樣的話，我們真的要拜託主委給予相關單位相關的指導，因為這個狀況不是只有籃協，大家過往如果沒有辦法處理的話，可能就會放棄國家補助，自己自費掏錢包買機票。因此如果真的像主委您所說的，我們就拜託一個月內由工程會主動邀請體育署，由您給他們示範或指導相關的國家採購、國家補助可以怎麼做，以及相關的空間彈性；還有在一個月內由工程會主動輔導體育署的代表隊，在最接近比賽的時間點，讓選手的名單可以合法合理採購機票。因為以主委您剛才的說法來看，其實並沒有那麼難解決嘛？"],["吳主任委員澤成：應該沒有問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那這個部分我們辦公室也會積極再跟你們討論。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主委這麼爽快地答應。","再來，還有一個問題，其實工程會最近對於科技採購的資安要求有一個相關公文及新聞，我相信主委應該很清楚，我要說的是，其實不是只有科技類的標案有資安的問題，在很多傳統的採購案也有資安的問題，怎麼說呢？體育署往年都會辦很多學生聯賽，當然就會取得很多學生的個資跟名單，我想您應該很清楚，可是如果到相關的賽事網站上面看，其實大部分的比賽報名資料都是引導到承辦單位的網站，但有些承辦單位居然讓報名網頁流到第三方的民間公司去登錄，而且在登錄資料時，甚至跟使用者，也就是要去登記參賽的學生或家長團隊、學校團隊，跟他們說這些資料會被商業應用，這個會不會有資安的問題？其實體育署告訴我們的狀況跟現實的狀況有很大的落差，我們相信可能是體育署在這個部分有些認知上或理解上的不同，因此出現一些盲點，但我必須要說，當資安的問題出現、名單外流時，受害的還是這些報名的學生跟家長的資料。我時間有限，是不是可以拜託主委，你們可不可以協助各個部會在相關的採購案中，關於蒐集、處理、利用個資的採購案，提供相關的資安防護建議或採購的範本設計給各個部會？因為我剛才只是舉體育署的例子，但我相信有非常多其他傳統的採購案也會有類似的問題。"],["吳主任委員澤成：有關這個部分，範本我們現在已經有了，是不是有不足之處，我們可以把它納進來考量。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，因為我剛才舉的例子是，資安的問題在科技跟傳統的採購案都會發生，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：可能你們以前沒有想到傳統採購案也會有這樣的問題。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主委，今天所有題目，我們也會再跟你們積極地討論，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席（陳委員雪生）：謝謝陳培瑜委員。","下一位請邱顯智委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-23-10","speakers":["陳雪生","洪孟楷","李昆澤","陳歐珀","何欣純","陳椒華","陳素月","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳培瑜","邱顯智","張其祿","趙正宇","許智傑","傅崐萁","劉櫂豪"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129303","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129303_00002","1129303_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關\n於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算\n案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部\n中央氣象署單位預算","agenda_id":"1129303_00001"}}},{"id":"148800","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148800","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d42348244311945bd09aa0f30f66da3334563ec986728e607a032273ed662baa63b46f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"10:55:37 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11:04:14","影片長度":"00:08:37","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。\n三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案。\n(第三案如未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答，相關提案請於12月1日中午12時前提出。)\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-10-8-22-9"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":517,"end_time":"2023-11-29T11:04:14+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T10:55:37+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1447,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（10時55分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：主委早安。首先要請問主委關於核廢料，台電跟新北之間的爭議，因為核一、核二廠用過的核子燃料棒數早就已經超過燃料池可貯存的容量，如果沒有中期的貯存設施的話，會導致燃料棒無法轉移，甚至留在爐心無法移出，核一、核二廠室外乾貯設施的水保相關計畫一直被新北市政府阻撓，纏訟至今，我們看到這個長達10年的爭訟，台電最近勝訴，新北也決定不要上訴，所以請問主委，可是現在他們的新爭議是台電跟新北市政府為要不要重送計畫還沒有定論，台電認為依照這個判決不用重送計畫，可是新北市政府卻認為這個計畫已經逾期，要求它提展延，請問主委，因為您是核安的主管機關，你們有沒有積極協調各方儘速啟動室外乾貯設施的建置呢？"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝范委員。這個議題是這樣子，台電跟新北市政府因為訴訟卡關，其實都是一贏一輸，各打50大板，這個僵局就在那個地方，但是……"],["范委員雲：那現在不是新北已經說不上訴了，新聞是這樣寫的，台電勝訴。"],["陳主任委員東陽：它的部分其實是有二個issue，我會再跟委員做一些說明，這個部分將來我們希望持續督促台電公司，可以按照室外乾貯的期程來進行，我知道我們物管組，就是以前的物管局，他們每一個月都有定期跟台電rehearsal這些演練的過程，期待將來如果萬一通了，怎麼樣把燃料送到室外乾貯、熱測試這些演練，以上說明。"],["范委員雲：所以主委的意思是說你們有積極協調各方，至少協調台電的部分？所以有機會儘速啟動這個室外乾貯設施的建置，是不是？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分其實還是要看兩方。"],["范委員雲：所以新北市政府還在拖延嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們應該沒有跟新北市政府……來……"],["陳組長鴻斌：新北市政府那邊有一個核安監督委員會，每次開會的時候，我們一定到場，只要是我們能夠出力的，不管是本身安全的部分等，我們都會協處的。"],["范委員雲：所以主委您認為無法預期什麼時候要建置是不是？"],["陳主任委員東陽：現在不大容易說……"],["范委員雲：那您覺得這個拖延的責任是在哪一方？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我想站在核安會的立場，就不適合來評論這個事情。"],["范委員雲：不適合評論？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["范委員雲：那這樣看起來您這個協調不夠有力。"],["陳主任委員東陽：主要是兩方都有各自的立場，那麼我們可以理解，過去不同的媒體有問過我，我剛才跟委員報告，訴訟其實是一贏一輸，都是一贏一輸，有一些是開工遲延，有一些是完工遲延；一個是新北市贏，一個是台電贏，有一點卡住，將來可能需要……"],["范委員雲：看起來就是這個官司新聞的部分，有一部分並沒有處理到，所以我想既然您是核安的主管機關，還是請主委更積極地協調各方好嗎？否則這個核安沒有辦法儘速啟動室外乾貯設施建置的話，反而可能讓大家承擔更大的風險，這樣沒錯吧？"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒錯，謝謝委員的建議，我們會來努力。"],["范委員雲：儘可能地努力，然後對外也應該要把責任說清楚，當然這是我的期許。再來我們有關心關於日本核處理水排放的問題，我其實質詢過兩次，2年前就質詢過當時的原能會主委，希望主委積極爭取臺灣加入IAEA的調查專家團，後來沒有辦法加入，臺灣仍然應該自組專家觀察團，我知道你們已經去過了幾次，可是現在它的核廢水排放之後，還沒有組團過去，對不對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：有。"],["范委員雲：已經組團過去了？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我等一下再做說明。"],["范委員雲：日本排放核處理水後，臺灣已經有組團過去了？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["范委員雲：好，你們有跟日方溝通、爭取更多的資訊共享嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：臺灣跟日本的NRA，就是相當於我們的核安會單位有一個協議，那麼福島排放廢水之後，我們有3次的觀察團，去年3月、11月跟今年6月，派了3次，跨部會各8人，視訊會議20次，另外……"],["范委員雲：對不起，主委，等一下，我這邊的資料，你們是在2022年3月、2022年11月跟2023年6月。"],["陳主任委員東陽：是，沒錯。"],["范委員雲：就這3次對不對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對，沒錯。"],["范委員雲：之後還有去嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：有。"],["范委員雲：之後是什麼時候？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們因為有一個定期的雙方交流，張組長上一次的業務會議沒有來，就是去參加日本的訪問團，那麼他也到了福島的現場，雙方也有交換核廢水排放的一些資訊。張組長要不要做一些補充？"],["范委員雲：8月24號之後去的，是不是？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是10月底到11月初。"],["范委員雲：11月初有再去？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是。"],["范委員雲：我想請問主委，IAEA有邀請韓國跟中國一起調查，然後我們看到它有公開，IAEA跟南韓福島有資訊共享的機制，核安會是不是也能夠爭取？雖然不能跟他們一起去，但可不可以跟IAEA進行相關的資訊共享呢？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們的網頁其實就有IAEA最新的相關資訊報導。另外，我們會裡面有駐外人員，除了其他地方之外，也有包含日本，所以我們會得到第一手的資料。"],["范委員雲：所以我們在資訊上不會比南韓慢就對了？"],["陳主任委員東陽：不會。"],["范委員雲：主委，這個承諾非常好，我想這是大家關心的事情。我知道2021年主委就已經對日本排核處理水提出三大訴求，這三大訴求可不可以請問核安會，目前的結果如何，都有達到嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，我想第一個就是掌握源頭；第二個，全面監測，強力地監測；第三個就是擴散預報；第四個，資訊共享，就是讓全民都知道，這些其實是我們最重要的四個主軸。"],["范委員雲：所以這些訴求都有達到？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，我們可以再提供一些細節給委員。"],["范委員雲：謝謝主委，因為我們並沒有看到完整的資訊，所以是不是請核安會針對核廢料的處置，該如何更積極地協調提出解方，還有福島核處理水排放的部分，如何積極地進行國際合作，加強資訊共享，不落後其他國家，這部分給我們辦公室一個報告好嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒有問題。"],["范委員雲：1個月內可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：可以。"],["范委員雲：謝謝主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝范委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請何欣純委員質詢。何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","接下來請劉世芳委員質詢。劉世芳委員、劉世芳委員不在。","我們接下來請陳椒華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-22-9","speakers":["鄭麗文","張廖萬堅","陳秀寳","黃國書","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","陳靜敏","張其祿","范雲","陳椒華","鄭正鈐","萬美玲","劉世芳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查 113 年度\n中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1129302_00001"}}},{"id":"148799","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148799","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d4234844b08763956f319a500069142ad034a1c986728e607a0322970626aac8e0cc315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳椒華","委員發言時間":"10:49:47 - 10:59:01","影片長度":"00:09:14","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員陳明文等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員游毓蘭等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員周春米等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員何志偉等29人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳椒華等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林靜儀等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員莊競程等26人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員陳靜敏等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n三、審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-10-8-36-23"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":554,"end_time":"2023-11-29T10:59:01+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T10:49:47+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":563,"blocks":[["陳委員椒華：（10時49分）謝謝召委，我要先請教法務部次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["陳委員椒華：次長，我要請問我們針對環境犯罪的緩起訴金現在額度最高的大概有多少？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，緩起訴處分金沒有一個上限或下限的問題……"],["陳委員椒華：就是我們的案例裡面，額度比較高的大概有到多少？"],["黃次長謀信：有時候財產犯罪像有一些證交法的案件，其緩起訴處分金……"],["陳委員椒華：我說環境犯罪、跟廢棄物有關……"],["黃次長謀信：我沒有辦法有具體數字告訴委員，因為每一個個案都不太一樣。"],["陳委員椒華：我是說最高的大概是多少，等一下可不可以給本席一個訊息？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們回去查看看有沒有……"],["陳委員椒華：檢察司這邊應該會比較清楚。現在緩起訴的案件如果跟廢棄物有關，這些廢棄物在緩起訴之後到底有沒有清走，法務部這邊有沒有掌握呢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這涉及到緩起訴處分的命令是怎麼下，第八款的必要命令有沒有附這一個條件……"],["陳委員椒華：所以目前沒有嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：個案上檢察官下的命令不一樣會決定怎麼處理……"],["陳委員椒華：那可不可以在法制化之後，如果環境犯罪要緩起訴的話要有一個命令，就是一定要負責清除才能夠同意給他緩起訴，這重不重要？"],["黃次長謀信：這個重要，但是法制上可能沒有辦法硬性規定檢察官一定要在做怎麼樣的處理之後他才能夠緩起訴。"],["陳委員椒華：但是如果沒有的話，這個犯罪行為人因為廢棄物不當的傾倒或掩埋，暴利達數十億，像民進黨前中執委郭再欽，他的罰金到現在，我們知道的才不到30萬，所以如果這個制度沒有法制化，等於是我們的司法還有檢調這邊在縱容犯罪。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，不是這樣，因為緩起訴的條件涉及到個案檢察官決定，委員講的這個具體的內容是不是在行政處分上，行政機關就可以處理，而不是透過緩起訴的條件去做處理……"],["陳委員椒華：行政機關的處理就是目前的案件，我想次長應該也知道，現在非常多的環境犯罪廢棄物根本就是擺爛，都是放在那裡，行政機關也沒辦法清除，誰要去出那筆錢啊？這樣瞭解嗎？所以你們如果不把制度訂好，不要求他清除才給他緩起訴，等於是縱容他出逃，然後又讓他繼續犯罪啊！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們緩起訴處分的規範就是那八款的條件，檢察官可以視個案做決定，而不是限定他只能做怎樣的決定。"],["陳委員椒華：目前的問題就是這樣，所以本席才會提出修法。你告訴我說讓檢察官各自去決定，那就是沒有解決問題，反而讓污染的問題更嚴重。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，不會。事實上，我們現在有很多具體個案，檢察官就環境犯罪所做的具體命令，事實上已經做了很多原來也許是該行政機關該做的事情。"],["陳委員椒華：那你告訴我為什麼環境污染越來越嚴重？你們法務部已經很盡力了、都做得很完美了，是嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，我們是追溯犯罪……"],["陳委員椒華：所以不可以這樣啊！我告訴你，我們的環境變異點、污染點越來越多，表示緩起訴是縱容他們回去再繼續犯罪，這個部分一定要去思考，污染土壤、污染地下水、污染地表水，這個很嚴重，我們要喝這個水，我們要吃東西啊！土壤要種植啊！所以這個法制化很重要。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我覺得我們的緩起訴制度不是縱容他，反而因此抑制他犯罪……"],["陳委員椒華：我沒有在批評什麼，我只是告訴你們問題很嚴重，一定要法制化。你聽不進去，我也沒辦法。","再來，我要請問秘書長，上次的質詢就是提出現在因為重測，還有地籍圖的數值化，我們的規定是必須要有依據，包括現在畫面上我們看到的，應該要依據有關地籍測量實施規則、還有圖解法、土地界址鑑定作業注意事項。這些作業事項有關數值化的部分，如果有提出實際鑑界資訊時是要參採啦！如果沒有的話，當然還有一些代為指界等等的作法。","不過現在本席接到一些陳情，他們告訴本席很嚴重，就是我們法院在審理或者是在採納第三公證單位，目前就是國土測繪中心這邊的證據時，都依地政機關的證詞在做判決。依他們的證詞做判決，很遺憾就是沒有去採納或是沒有去調查清楚有實際鑑界的紀錄。上次也有講到，像這個案子是92年1月29號蓋房子，92年1月15號地政機關就實際把地界畫清楚，房子也蓋在這個界線裡面，後來101年進行數值化，重新去鑑界，那個指界是有瑕疵，所以就否定了前面的鑑界。本席要告訴秘書長，在法院審理的時候，地政機關有隱瞞前面的鑑界資料，地政機關有隱瞞前面的地政資料，再講一遍：地政機關有隱瞞！所以法院的判決是參採地政機關的證詞，這樣的例子不是個案、不是個案，所以本席要告訴司法院、要告訴我們所有判決的這些法官，你們一定要去追究前面是不是有實際鑑界的資料，目前我們遇到的困難就是很多判決都是參採地政機關或者是國土測繪中心，當他們有勾結的時候，或者是有錯誤的時候，我們的受害者面臨的就是房子蓋好了，92年5月蓋好了，6月有進行再鑑界，有進行保存登記，但是現在面臨房子被拆，主要是我們的當事人，他沒有能力去要求地政機關一定要拿出之前的證物，法院就判決了。所以本席希望我們法院要針對剛剛所提到的所有鑑界的規定，我們的判決一定必須去追究之前如果有鑑界的，或者是有任何的證據，不要只片面去採納地政或者是數值化，或者是套圖，或者是什麼這些造成的錯誤，秘書長同意或者是願意聽進去本席的苦衷嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員剛剛的提示，我會請我們民事廳研議看如何處理。"],["陳委員椒華：好。本席也希望民事廳能夠重視本席講的這個嚴重的事項，很多人因為這樣地界被移了、房子被拆了，甚至尋短自殺都有，憂鬱症個案很多，因為目前我們的民事判決這個部分九成九都是判當事人輸，所以這個問題絕對不是個案，拜託請我們司法院一定要重視。"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個我會請我們民事廳研議看如何處理。"],["陳委員椒華：好，謝謝。謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝陳椒華委員。先做會議程序的宣告：上午會議時間繼續進行到議程所列事項均處理完畢為止；另外今日討論事項提案條文的宣讀時間約15分鐘，一併先做說明。","下一位請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-36-23","speakers":["湯蕙禎","陳椒華","陳靜敏","曾銘宗","王鴻薇","賴香伶","江永昌","吳怡玎","林淑芬","劉建國","謝衣鳯","林思銘","鄭運鵬","吳琪銘"],"page_start":303,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員陳\n明文等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員林楚茵等20 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條\n文修正草案」案、 ( 五)委員蔡易餘等20 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條\n之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七) 委員游毓蘭等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正\n草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員周春米等27 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員何志偉\n等29 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 委員陳椒華等27 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員林靜儀等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟\n法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員莊競程等26 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八\n十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員陳靜敏等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正\n草案」案、( 八) 委員劉建國等16 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案；三、\n審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1129301_00002"}}},{"id":"148798","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148798","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d4234844e5a0cbffd5e72df30f66da3334563ec986728e607a0322089d1730ef7b1b9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張其祿","委員發言時間":"10:45:46 - 10:55:31","影片長度":"00:09:45","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。\n三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案。\n(第三案如未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答，相關提案請於12月1日中午12時前提出。)\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-10-8-22-9"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":585,"end_time":"2023-11-29T10:55:31+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T10:45:46+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1391,"blocks":[["張委員其祿：（10時45分）謝謝召委，有請陳主委，謝謝。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：張委員早。"],["張委員其祿：主委好。主委，我們快速地問問題，因為時間有限。前面也有委員垂詢，不過我們再簡單講一下。COP28明天就開了，法國要邀請40個核能國家入列，希望全球核能產量要翻3倍。我只問一個最簡單的，現在我們還是繼續用非核家園政策走到底，我們要不要為這種東西做一些準備呢？其實我在其他的地方也一直質詢過，就是到底我們核融合的發展要不要有策略？或者是說是不是也應該要有跟這個有關的核能政策白皮書？還是我們就堅持廢核走到底了？另外，像美國他們事實上也會提出核融合的商轉策略，也就是說，我們到底要不要對這個地方……還是說我們乾脆就走到底，反正核能跟我們是無關的？主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝張委員。首先，能源政策其實是經濟部在主責，是我們國家的政策……"],["張委員其祿：是，瞭解。"],["陳主任委員東陽：核安會其實是守住bottom line、安全，所以這個部分是我們專業在把關，這是第一點。第二點，核融合是最近非常熱門、新興的國際研究課題，上個禮拜我剛好去國研院，也參觀了他們一個初步的研究計畫，這是整合型的計畫，大概有5個子計畫，國科會support一年3,500萬……"],["張委員其祿：所以主委也是可以支持我們還是要有準備，應該這樣講……雖然非核家園是一個大政策，是執政黨的政策，但是我覺得未來的趨勢，要是真的……而且我坦白講，核融合這些新的技術要是真的成熟了，也許它真的就沒有廢料了等等，或者這些可以解決的話，這也符合陳建仁院長講的，如果這樣的話，這也算綠電。"],["陳主任委員東陽：我是理解是，現在離真正的商轉……"],["張委員其祿：我知道啦，距離很遙遠。"],["陳主任委員東陽：非常、非常遙遠。"],["張委員其祿：是。"],["陳主任委員東陽：有一定的難度，但是……"],["張委員其祿：但是我們都不R&D的話，也不行嘛。"],["陳主任委員東陽：當然，R&D非常、非常地重要，這就是為什麼我們這個整合型計畫其實大部分是來自學界，有成大、有3個子計畫……"],["張委員其祿：我知道，這個我也問過廖院長、中研院，當然我們希望不管怎麼樣，這個研究本身是很重要的，而且國際都這樣做。我再請教一個，其實現在包括賴清德副總統、也是總統候選人自己都說，未來搞不好還要緊急使用，但是問題是我們也瞭解，核電廠不是隨插即用，不是插上電就可以用；當然，蔡英文總統也有點支持賴副總統，他說我們到時候用緊急命令就可以來做。我不太瞭解，我就長話短說，因為時間有限，你看，什麼是「緊急」？這個定義可能要出來。再來，要是真的要用的時候，可能也要有安檢、程序、甚至很多的配套，就像剛才講的，它不是即插即用，不可能嘛！所以是不是也要有緊急啟用的法制或者規定？不然的話，我看這個真的變成是選舉語言、說說而已，怎麼可能能達成？主委怎麼看？"],["陳主任委員東陽：瞭解，不管怎麼樣，不管法律的層次怎麼樣，它可以很快速來決定，但是核安會其實是守住安全……"],["張委員其祿：是呀！"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個是沒有任何妥協的空間，我們其實是本諸專業，該怎麼做、該怎麼審查、該怎麼check可疑的地方、老舊零件，那我們就是要做……"],["張委員其祿：對啦！這個至關重要啦！主委，因為你們就是要把關安全的，所以我們才說這種所謂緊急就可以把它拿來用，這個也不合理啦！這個真的要講清楚，好不好？因為我們認為要有制度面，甚至也要有配套面，所以我再直接往下。","當然這個問題前面有幾位委員問，我就很快速的還是再簡單講六氟化鈾這件事，你看新聞我能調到的，從2017年當時是執政黨才開始執政的時候，說2年內就要處理掉，後來2018年的時候說下週簽約。那現在說要運送出去，本來預定已經延宕到112年年底，也就是今年年底，就是說本來搞定，結果後來好像還是不行，所以這件事情到底什麼時候能夠處理完？那我直接講完，因為剛才主委稍微有回答前面委員，直接往下。","我的意思是這樣子，我可能要比較不同方向再問一個問題，就是說這個東西看起來也不見得很好運送出去，現在我們是不是也有說，因為臺灣淨零科技研究政策建議書裡面也講，鈾化合物作為第四代以後，甚至核融合相關的這種研究，它也是很重要的原料，是不是乾脆就想想看，既然運不出去，就好好用用它啦！這個有沒有想過？"],["陳主任委員東陽：請高院長來回答。"],["張委員其祿：是，院長。"],["高院長梓木：報告委員，這個UF6事實上可以回溯到40年前，四十多年前我們在研究反應器核燃料技術的時候，從法國跟美國進口這些UF6。"],["張委員其祿：對，我知道，歷史我們都知道，現在也比較運不出去嘛！那你好好用它有沒有可能？"],["高院長梓木：所以現在運不出去的問題，因為它是一個比較複雜的組合物，甚至3個桶裡面有1個桶比較複雜，會有一些安全上的顧慮，所以本來今年年底就要運出去，但是這些顧慮在經過英國的廠家來特別……"],["張委員其祿：我知道，剛剛上面都有寫。"],["高院長梓木：所以將來是不是要用？因為這是用過的一些UF6混雜了一些其他東西，並不適合第四代，如果第四代有這個需要，我們應該再去買新的……"],["張委員其祿：買不同的嗎？"],["高院長梓木：一樣，看是什麼樣的燃料，但是第四代我們傾向是用輕水……"],["張委員其祿：這兩位是專家了。"],["高院長梓木：是。"],["張委員其祿：我真的誠實說我是外行，只能說我們只能看到這樣子，你看因為你們淨零政策裡面說鈾化合物也是重要的，那又有一些要運出去，所以我只是在想，你們是不是要想辦法有更好的結合？"],["高院長梓木：如果確定要發展第四代，我們會有規劃再跟燃料製造廠……"],["張委員其祿：好，不要到時候又運不出去，既然運不出去，我們就好好善用。","最後還有一點點小問題，我再請教一下，核轉換這件事是不是有前瞻性？主委，能不能說？因為說實話，這件事要是真的搞定，說不定以後就真的達成陳建仁院長講的，連核廢料都沒有了，把它壓縮或等等，甚至不具放射性，這個是不是我們也要好好的想一想怎麼樣投入一些R&D？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，我請高院長回答。"],["張委員其祿：好，院長繼續。"],["高院長梓木：核轉換事實上是ADS的技術，就是我們把百分之百的廢料事實上95%可以透過核轉換，把一些長半衰期的超過千年、萬年轉換成……"],["張委員其祿：對，我們瞭解這個。"],["高院長梓木：500年到100年以下，這個計畫在70 MeV裡面有部分的經費在支持繼續研究核轉換，先期計畫前二年也是有，所以六年來，就是前三年到後三年都會有持續研究這一方面，但是因為要蓋反應器Subcritical Reactor，我們估計要花600億才有辦法做一些轉換，我們有做過成本效益的評估，在我們核工的人員將來有機會可以……"],["張委員其祿：因為我們這個會期是預算，我們當然希望你就是有些前瞻性的先想清楚，如果有基礎性的必須要做的……"],["高院長梓木：有，這個我們有……"],["張委員其祿：或者甚至能夠讓這件事未來下一代可能可以更精進的話，我們就多做一點。"],["高院長梓木：謝謝委員。"],["張委員其祿：最後，再30秒就結束了。院長，現在我再請教一個問題，最近，美國對空軍飛行員都有研究游離輻射的影響，最近哈佛大學也有，他們是對空服員，你們對你們自己有沒有？核安會有沒有想過這件事？"],["陳主任委員東陽：有。這個部分我們國人─航空從業人員每年平均大概是2到3毫西弗，這個低於國際放射性防護協會的標準5以下，主要我們是在中緯度國家，那我知道……"],["張委員其祿：那哈佛的研究是怎麼回事呢？"],["陳主任委員東陽：因為它們美國在高緯度，我知道輻防組明年有一個計畫跟民航局就照顧航空從業人員，他們有一個精進的計畫在做這個事情。"],["張委員其祿：好，我們也希望還是有這樣的計畫，因為說實話，國外既然都這樣有長期追蹤，我們也希望對我們的空服員能夠有一個保護，好不好？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是。"],["張委員其祿：那就這樣子，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝張委員。"],["張委員其祿：謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。我們接下來請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-22-9","speakers":["鄭麗文","張廖萬堅","陳秀寳","黃國書","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","陳靜敏","張其祿","范雲","陳椒華","鄭正鈐","萬美玲","劉世芳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查 113 年度\n中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1129302_00001"}}},{"id":"148797","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148797","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d42348b47e227886a3a878500069142ad034a1c986728e607a03220e5e4e1c0ebaa3885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳怡玎","委員發言時間":"10:37:26 - 10:49:42","影片長度":"00:12:16","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員陳明文等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員游毓蘭等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員周春米等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員何志偉等29人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳椒華等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林靜儀等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員莊競程等26人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員陳靜敏等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n三、審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-10-8-36-23"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":736,"end_time":"2023-11-29T10:49:42+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T10:37:26+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":529,"blocks":[["吳委員怡玎：（10時37分）謝謝主席。我想要請教司法院秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["吳委員怡玎：今天的修法跟保密相關，我問的問題也跟保密相關，不過有一點不一樣。我們看到前幾天媒體也有報導，性侵受害者有超過一半是未成年，這是相當可怕的數字，2022年性侵害通報案件的8,401位受害人裡面有4,809人未滿18歲，也就是比例高達57%，其實還滿可怕的。法院的判決是依照兒少福利與權益保障法第69條，為了保障這些受害的未成年，等於是不揭露他的身分，我們也有規定媒體對下列兒童及少年不得報導或記載其姓名，重點是「或其他足以識別身分之資訊」，我們最原始的意義是要保護被害人，當然是要保護！但是變成我們的行政機關也好、甚至我們的媒體也好，完全連加害者的身分也沒辦法報導了，也就是加害者的一些資訊都被隱匿了。這就會讓社會上有一個想法，這些人回到社會之後，我們怎麼知道、保護我們的未成年或是其他被性侵的可能？怕又入了狼口。","我們看到英美兩國有所謂的潔西卡法案、梅根法案還有莎拉法案，其實都是針對這些性侵犯回到社區之後做一定程度的公布，或是讓社區知道這樣的人在你的身邊。我想請教秘書長，這當然有兩邊的說法，一方面我們希望公布這些加害人的資訊，讓更多人提高警惕；另一方面又害怕如果公布這些加害人的身分，我們其實很容易可以知道被害人的身分，請問秘書長覺得呢？"],["吳秘書長三龍：跟委員說明，這就在權衡之間，尤其這些是未成年的被害人，我們當然要避免他再受到二度傷害，像判決書這種書信如何公開，在這種層次的問題，我們當然也要考量經過判決書的揭露之後是否會讓被害的未成年有二度傷害，這個還是最重要的順位。"],["吳委員怡玎：秘書長，老實說我有一個具體的建議，我們很難衡量，因為一來我們不希望被害人二度受傷，二來我們不希望這個加害人又去害了別人，所以我們是不是可以統計一下這些性侵再犯者所造成的受害人數有多少？相較於初犯所造成的受害人有多少？其實應該說，每個受害人的傷害不能這樣量化，但至少讓我們有一個概念，我們真的要取其一啦！但是我覺得有這些數字的話，我們更能去衡量是不是更應該再多開放一些加害人的資訊來避免更多的人受傷害，我們是不是可以做一下相關的統計？"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員的建議我們回去後會來研議做一個統計，像委員剛剛所提到的真的也是很重要，如何讓大家知道這些加害人，避免其他人又被害，這個也是一個重要的……"],["吳委員怡玎：秘書長，這很簡單，這些資訊我相信你們都有，只是需要做一下統計，麻煩再讓我們辦公室或委員會知道一下好嗎？好，謝謝。","再來請教法務部。次長，其實我們辦公室有一個陳情案，現在詐欺很多，很多人都遇到了，這個陳情人的臉書帳號被盜用，被盜用之後，詐騙集團用了這個真人的帳號去詐騙他的朋友或者是其他的人，這已經變成一個真人的殭屍帳號了，他來我們辦公室陳情的時候，我們其實也跟警政署那邊反映，警政署的意思是希望還是要透過數發部，我們其實還有跟數發部還有臉書在臺北開了一個實體的會議，可是最後的結論是臉書（Meta）只針對名人的帳號處理或是政府、政黨、政治人物相關的帳號，一般民眾如果他的帳號被偷了，他們是沒有辦法管的，這個帳號已經很明顯被濫用了，被不法的人在做不法的使用，希望它能趕快關起來，但是這個民眾卻一直沒有辦法把他的帳號關起來，我不知道法務部這邊有沒有相關的案件，或者是你們有沒有解決的方法或者是你們有發現到底癥結點在哪裡，我們可以跟數發部也好、跟臉書也好來一起解決這件事情，因為這絕對不是個案，這絕對是許多人遇到的情況。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，事實上就類似的案件臺高檢署跟Meta、Facebook還有Google也好，其實也有做過很多次的協商，包括調取資料還有下架的機制，事實上已經有一個既有機制存在……"],["吳委員怡玎：那關帳戶呢？如果被盜帳戶的話？"],["黃次長謀信：就是下架，類似的規定有一個機制存在，當然Meta本身有自己的policy、有自己的政策，對不對？什麼案件可以允許下架、什麼樣機制，它有一定的規範，這個具體個案符不符合它的規定，我們要看個案來決定。"],["吳委員怡玎：所以如果去你們那邊的話是要找誰？如果民眾……"],["黃次長謀信：如果檢察官已經在偵辦中，他就可以透過這個機制跟Meta跟Google做一些處理，臺高檢署有一個窗口可以去做相關的處理，檢察官會透過臺高檢署，臺高檢署跟……"],["吳委員怡玎：我知道，我舉一個例子好了，像一般我們如果懷疑那個帳戶是有問題的帳戶，其實現在一般真的是警察局傳真一下是警示帳戶，銀行就把帳戶凍結了，就像你剛剛講的，必須是檢察官去看這個案子到底有沒有問題，我們知道現在檢察官的loading很重，再加上它的時間也會有點長，我們是不是可以想出一個更快的方法？因為老實說啦！你凍結一個臉書帳戶，當然事情會有兩面，它的錯殺或者是它造成的傷害，絕對不會比你凍結一個帳戶還要來的高，所以這個東西我們是不是……","可是它如果不被凍結，它所造成的傷害其實不比那個帳戶有沒有被凍結要來的低，所以我們可能要權衡一下，這個東西其實是有其迫切性，所以你們在跟Meta討論的時候可能可以研究一下，像這樣子如果已經可以證明確實被盜用，就應該可以跟Meta討論怎麼儘快的下架。"],["黃次長謀信：好，跟委員報告，因為打詐的關係，事實上我們跟民間公司Meta也有很多的聯繫，Meta基於企業責任，有些案件如果有人投訴的話，它自己也可以自主性的做一些下架的處理，這是第一個。","第二個，案件如果沒有進到檢察官，事實上，我們很多行政機關或司法檢察機關跟Meta也有一些聯繫機制，當然它可以做下架或相關處理，最後，如果是最重度的、到檢察官了，如剛剛我跟委員報告的，透過臺高檢的窗口，事實上它也有建立刑事案件的下架跟調取的機制，所以在各方的努力之下，事實上機制是存在的，所以要看個案……"],["吳委員怡玎：所以你們有一個……我們其實只是想要讓民眾知道，當他有這樣子的情況的時候到底要找誰，你剛剛有提到臺高檢有一個窗口。"],["黃次長謀信：對，臺高檢那是一個個案，當然臺高檢的窗口是我們內部檢察官在偵辦案件之後，透過臺高檢的窗口跟Meta跟相關的公司來聯繫，它是內部偵辦案件的內部窗口……"],["吳委員怡玎：OK，所以民眾還是要透過檢察官……"],["黃次長謀信：如果說有涉及犯罪的話，當然檢察官就會偵辦，民眾就可以跟檢察官提出……"],["吳委員怡玎：我想次長應該知道，其實涉及犯罪這件事情其定義就要花一些時間……"],["黃次長謀信：對，所以……"],["吳委員怡玎：但是帳戶被盜用這件事情，確認這件事情的時間相對的短，所以我們是不是可以有……"],["黃次長謀信：瞭解，所以我剛剛有跟委員報告，案件到檢察官這邊畢竟比較末端、時間比較久了，所以我剛才講有些社群平臺它自主性的、就其企業上的企業自主性就有一些下架的規定，當然也有一些檢舉的機制，它就有一些下架的規定，如果不是透過它自主性的下架，我們行政機關有一些打詐的平臺，案件還沒到地檢署的時候，一些行政平臺跟Meta也有一些下架相關的聯繫機制，我剛才講的是到檢察官這邊、已經有刑案了……"],["吳委員怡玎：所以你建議哪一些平臺有下架機制？因為……"],["黃次長謀信：像我們檢方跟Meta……我剛才講說檢方的偵辦跟Meta、Google、Facebook我們都有一些聯繫。"],["吳委員怡玎：OK，我知道，因為透過檢察官那邊時間實在是比較冗長，就像我講的，要證明他被盜用這件事情很快，但是要證明他被盜用又拿去做不法的事情，這件事情是很冗長的。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["吳委員怡玎：很簡單，當然企業有自己的一些機制，但是我們現在管不到企業，我們只能說既然你們有管道，如果知道發生這樣的事情，而且這些事情其實會越來越多，你們可能在溝通的過程中可以儘量push是不是……就是在證明有不法的相關作為之前，只要證明被盜用，是不是就可以有相當的機制啟動，讓民眾知道到底要去找誰，好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳怡玎委員。下一位請陳椒華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-36-23","speakers":["湯蕙禎","陳椒華","陳靜敏","曾銘宗","王鴻薇","賴香伶","江永昌","吳怡玎","林淑芬","劉建國","謝衣鳯","林思銘","鄭運鵬","吳琪銘"],"page_start":303,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員陳\n明文等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員林楚茵等20 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條\n文修正草案」案、 ( 五)委員蔡易餘等20 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條\n之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七) 委員游毓蘭等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正\n草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員周春米等27 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員何志偉\n等29 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 委員陳椒華等27 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員林靜儀等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟\n法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員莊競程等26 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八\n十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員陳靜敏等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正\n草案」案、( 八) 委員劉建國等16 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案；三、\n審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1129301_00002"}}},{"id":"148796","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148796","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d42348aa1ef071f615f53636d81ac9a092bbedc986728e607a032207b297a3839f5c4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"10:43:34 - 10:49:23","影片長度":"00:05:49","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算。\n三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。\n四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。\n五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部中央氣象署單位預算。\n（二、工程會預算案與一、業務報告合併詢答後進行處理，四及五已詢答完畢，本日進行處理）\n（工程會預算提案於112年11月27日中午12時截止收件）\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-10-8-23-10"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":349,"end_time":"2023-11-29T10:49:23+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T10:43:34+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1341,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（10時43分）謝謝主席，請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：主委早。剛才魯明哲委員的發言，有關很多廠商現在忍辱偷生，他敢得罪這些業者嗎？得罪了以後永遠不要來了，現在缺工缺料，鋼材等材料又上漲，在這種情況之下會衍生出很多的工程糾紛，再加上顧問設計公司吹毛求疵，基層也欠缺了一些基本常識，比如這個缺點補正、那個缺點補正、這個磁磚少一塊、那個玻璃又不對或是尺寸也不對。這樣的情況之下，如果是補正還好，現在要求你補正10件，10件補正完了又來20件，20件完了又來30件，這個事小，工期算進去的話那就更多了。所以工程會這樣的調解案件層出不窮，應該滿多的，工程會對於調解案件的部分，前面也有委員質詢提到，有20%是窒礙難行，你們調解不成，雙方差距太大，你們工程會應該就專業的部分要去解決這個問題啊，不然下面的包商非常痛苦，現在資金本來就欠缺，施工完畢拿不到錢，層層關卡，我接到很多包商反映，但我們也愛莫能助，因為政府單位要依法行政。所以主委，有關這一方面，我也希望你們工程會作為全國最高工程解釋機關，要做一個公平的裁處，20%的案件，也希望儘量給縣政府底下的基層部門一個明確的方向，讓他們好做；還有一些是怕事情，所以把事情都推到中央、推到你們那邊去，你們應該也要做一個詳細的處理，這一點沒問題吧？"],["吳主任委員澤成：沒問題，我們現在對於調解的部分，如果他們溝通沒有同意，我們都會百分之百的提出建議。"],["陳委員雪生：好。還有剛才俊憲委員提到臺南的大橋，大橋現在也追加預算，很多都做不起來。","前兩個禮拜我跟蔡總統在一個聚會裡面，我請示他……我請問主委，馬祖大橋的案子你有沒有參與？"],["吳主任委員澤成：目前是交通部在……"],["陳委員雪生：我知道，你們委員會有沒有參與？"],["吳主任委員澤成：目前國發會還在審議中，我們會參加做相關審查。"],["陳委員雪生：國發會審議時，你們有參與嘛？"],["吳主任委員澤成：有。"],["陳委員雪生：我問蔡總統時，他說外面講說馬祖大橋要600億，但我一直跟蔡總統講，你去問一下世曦工程顧問公司，它說300億足夠了；我也問過，你們有很多公共工程沒有人標，十幾次都沒人標，現在我們基層很痛苦的，很多工程都要縣長親自出門去拜託人家來標，不要說拿回扣，回扣就免談了吧！根本沒有人來做，因為預算很低。","我們也去問過金門大橋的業者東丕，我問王董，原本我們是定288億，東丕說如果是300億，它一定能夠做。也就是說，這些工程的預算出去後，一定要有人來標啊，沒有人來標，你們追加後又沒人標，這是一個問題，就跟臺南的工程一樣。我的意思是，我也有跟蔡總統報告，300億，世曦說絕對沒問題，承作過金門大橋的工程廠商東丕說如果以前沒做過金門大橋，它還沒把握；它做過金門大橋後，馬祖大橋就更有把握了。所以我就跟總統報告，如果是600億，我就投降，我當然要考慮到整個中央政府的財政結構；後來總統說，如果是300億，預算經費分十年編列，技術上如果沒問題，他原則上絕對會支持這件事情。主委，就你的專業觀點，技術性的部分，目前在國內有沒有問題？"],["吳主任委員澤成：應該沒有問題。"],["陳委員雪生：沒有問題，那麼你有機會碰到總統時，拜託你跟總統報告，馬祖大橋以我們國內的技術來興建沒有問題，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["陳委員雪生：這樣的話，我們就有一個支撐，讓馬祖大橋能夠順利地向前推進，好不好？"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["陳委員雪生：好，謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生召委。","接下來請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-23-10","speakers":["陳雪生","洪孟楷","李昆澤","陳歐珀","何欣純","陳椒華","陳素月","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳培瑜","邱顯智","張其祿","趙正宇","許智傑","傅崐萁","劉櫂豪"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129303","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129303_00002","1129303_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關\n於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算\n案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部\n中央氣象署單位預算","agenda_id":"1129303_00001"}}},{"id":"148795","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148795","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d4234816bb590c6b92a3b036d81ac9a092bbedc986728e607a0322e185865d7265e4505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"10:33:15 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10:43:07","影片長度":"00:09:52","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算。\n三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。\n四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。\n五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部中央氣象署單位預算。\n（二、工程會預算案與一、業務報告合併詢答後進行處理，四及五已詢答完畢，本日進行處理）\n（工程會預算提案於112年11月27日中午12時截止收件）\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-10-8-23-10"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":592,"end_time":"2023-11-29T10:43:07+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T10:33:15+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1325,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時33分）好，謝謝主席。有請吳澤成主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["魯委員明哲：主委好。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員你好。"],["魯委員明哲：我幾天前特別跟交通委員會下鄉，請部長跟幾位局長到現場，我還真的蠻替這些公務人員覺得有點感慨，跟以前實在差很多，因為有些工程流標太多次了，在開會之前負責這個工程的主管就跑到我旁邊說：「委員，我們大概什麼時候會再第幾次招標，這一次應該會有人來」，跟他聊天的過程之中，我發覺這些公務背景的主管這幾年搖身一變變成業務推銷員，要敲門訪客，拜託拜託，失敗率可能還高達九成，好不容易求到一家含著眼淚感謝，現在確實每一個委員都提到這個問題，我們有看到我們主委在訪問時特別有說，其實大概就是這些情況，包括四大理由：價格、工期、可能綁標或者過於集中，第一個，錢不夠，明明買這個就不只這個價錢，你一定要編很少的錢，當然大概就只有流標，不然可能就是品質有問題，你的時間明明就不夠，明明要2年才可以完成，但是你只給人家1年或1年半；再來是合約裡面發現有綁標，綁標就有很多人根本沒辦法來，因為公司可能有些東西拿不到；還有案量過於集中。","現在交通部的巨額工程大概是受到最大的影響，你要講是受災戶也可以，就如同我們的桃園鐵路地下化工程，第一個價格現在可能也編得不夠，像這樣的重大工程，請主委待會說一下，因為重大工程會有一個問題，從可行性評估努力開始，價格就編在那邊，結果一弄有時候弄個5年、6年，終於綜規過了、拚過了，但是價錢還守在5、6年以前的那個部分。交通部也說終於過了，但是當時編的就是這個價錢，我就硬著頭皮拿5、6年以前價格硬去標一下，你建議他們到底要怎麼樣做，怎麼樣做才不會違法，也不會造成重大工程這麼多次的流標？你說一下。"],["吳主任委員澤成：像剛剛委員這種講法，機關就不應該這樣做，前面是幾年前估的價格，現在5、6年之後進到設計階段，你就要依照現在的價格去編列，然後該修正你要報修正，而且行政院有一個措施是在執行的時候因為物價的關係，可以邊報邊進行。"],["魯委員明哲：主委，我相信你們應該有三令五申或者各項的訓練，甚至採購人員考證照的過程中很多觀念都有給他們，但這種工程類的巨額採購，源頭在這些工程人員寫這些預算的時候，到了採購人員那邊其實也沒有任何改的空間，我真的覺得像你提出來的這四個因素，包括錢不夠、工期明明就不夠等等這些具體的部分，我們發覺有很多聽起來可以事前預防，而且很多都是人為的問題，可能不是刻意，但就像你剛剛說的，或是林俊憲委員說的，按照你的標準按表操課先弄一次，像我所說的5、6年前的價格也保險，所以當時的估價先弄1、2次再說。我覺得這種情況在第一線，不管是中央或各地方的發包單位，尤其是針對工程類的，是不是要三令五申再跟他們說一下，因為他們都認為保守不要違法，確實是這樣，每一個人都是不管合不合理，先試驗一下，不行我們再來大家共同負責，你要怎麼跟這些第一線的人員建議？"],["吳主任委員澤成：除了剛剛委員建議的，我們儘量對第一線同仁做教育或宣導之外，我未來會做一件事，對於機關首長要課予責任。"],["魯委員明哲：機關首長是民選的，有時候他可能要經過4年才懂，所以我倒覺得是一剛開始的一些想法、觀念的問題，機關的主管及財主等相關單位要重新開始這個部分。剛剛講到多次流標以上才決標的案件，事實上，我們也看到這幾年的情況是持續不斷地增加，今年1至10月看起來前面數字有減少，但是招標7次以上還沒標出去的案件不斷地增加。除了這個問題之外，我擔心有一種情況，你說它是綁標，其實有時候還真的是，你說是第一線人員過於謹慎，有時候也是。可是你知道嗎？我最近碰到很多我以前當市長的時候在做公共工程的，他們現在去蓋房子或是去做別的，不做公共工程了，我最近至少碰到2、3個已經做得很大、很努力的，他們現在都不做了，因為他們不敢做了，有兩個原因，第一個，做公共工程的婆婆媽媽很多，你知道嗎？譬如承辦人員來一下、科長來一下、首長來一下、政風來一下、財主單位聯合稽查一下，如果是重大工程可能上級單位再來弄一下，其實如果是合法合情合理的，這些公文他就弄不完了，光搞這個公文要專門請1、2個人員來應付，環保單位來了，他也覺得很頭痛，這是第一個問題。","第二個問題，今天不談第一部分，第二個問題是有技術性的或是過於……，很奇怪的是我已經完工了，但是拿不到錢，完工拿不到錢，我們跟你調閱過資料，從107年到111年有214案，平均1年41.8案，這數字很少，因為全國可發包單位這麼多，才214案，但這些案件是已經受不了了，叫天天不應、呼地地不靈，所以翻臉了，這是廠商主動，不是政府，而是廠商覺得算了，因為大家也知道公共工程只要得罪一次以後大概你也不要來了，真的已經準備退出了，所以你看廠商主動申報就有這麼多，如果在基層弄來弄去、打來打去沒有到這個階段，廠商因為還要繼續做工程忍辱偷生的也不少，大概是這個數字的50倍、100倍都有可能，所以我覺得這個部分也要有一個SOP，而且要稍微電腦化一點。現在不做公共工程的那些廠商跟我說，你就是依約給他，很簡單，他已經請工人了，水泥已經抹上去了，整個公文跑完、驗收、東搞西搞大概3個月、6個月可以拿到款，叫做很正常，就是他自己的手臂要很強，真的就是這樣，有時候來來去去拖了1年，或是覺得哪裡不對要再補一下，拖1年也還算一般廠商可以忍耐的。現在因為廠商難找，但是我覺得有部分人員還活在以前，就是認為我是招標人員我最大，大家排在門口來求我，那種時代已經過去了，現在變成是要兼業務人員去敲門這種情況，我聽到、遇到很多手邊打電話去問為什麼人家做完，你不給錢，後面馬上隔天付錢，莫名其妙的事情很多。我要拜託在付款期間，有問題當然就不要付款，但是沒有問題拖欠的這個部分，我希望工程會也能夠在時程上協助強調做一致性的建議，好不好？"],["吳主任委員澤成：如同魯委員所說的，你當過市長也很清楚，一個機關的態度跟解決問題的能力、效率也是很關鍵，所以我剛剛為什麼說要對於機關首長課責，就是這個問題，我們會更加注意來追蹤、來辦理。"],["魯委員明哲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員。"],["主席（魯委員明哲代）：請陳雪生召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-23-10","speakers":["陳雪生","洪孟楷","李昆澤","陳歐珀","何欣純","陳椒華","陳素月","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳培瑜","邱顯智","張其祿","趙正宇","許智傑","傅崐萁","劉櫂豪"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129303","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129303_00002","1129303_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關\n於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算\n案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部\n中央氣象署單位預算","agenda_id":"1129303_00001"}}},{"id":"148794","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148794","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d42348aec7835eb87c962236d81ac9a092bbedc986728e607a032215a52f385e0ba14d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:22:11 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10:45:34","影片長度":"00:07:49","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。\n三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案。\n(第三案如未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答，相關提案請於12月1日中午12時前提出。)\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-10-8-22-9"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":469,"end_time":"2023-11-29T10:45:34+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T10:37:45+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1370,"blocks":[["陳委員靜敏：（10時37分）謝謝主席，我想請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：陳委員好。"],["陳委員靜敏：主委好。今天是關於核安相關預算及業務的審查，上次見到主委的時候就討論到核安很重要的就是要保障民眾核安、輻安的安全，更重要的是要能夠發展原子能的民生相關用途，我看到這陣子以來核安會都有在做，但是當民眾對於相關資訊不瞭解、會很害怕的時候，就會有相關的假訊息，可能會有這些「惡、假、害」傷害政府在這個部分的努力。剛剛其他委員也有垂詢，也提到其實核安會定期也有在update這些相關資訊，譬如現在相關的輻射量海水模擬，主要就是因為從福島311事件以後，當他們把核廢水排到海裡的時候，對於臺灣的安全上面會不會有疑慮，雖然我們都這樣子做了，上次也非常肯定跨部會共同建置了這個公開的平臺，這個公開的平臺當然除了核安會以外，還有外交部、交通部、衛福部、農業部、海委會、國科會等等都要共同來做，這些資訊的公開我們很期待，就是我剛剛講的希望能夠避免不瞭解的民眾對於這個部分的誤解，同時也不會發生前一陣子大家在那邊買食鹽、搶購海鮮，還有哪些海鮮是不能夠買的，我覺得雖然政府都有在做，但是我們的宣導是不是真的能夠避免民眾的誤解或是假消息的傳遞，我覺得這是最重要的，特別是日本福島事件從2011年爆發到現在，大家都還是這麼關心，雖然它已經告訴我們它含氚的排放量相較於其他的國家都還是比較低的情況之下，大家都還是這麼擔心。但是剛剛林宜瑾委員也有提到，其實我們更應該要擔心的是我們鄰近的壞鄰居，包括中國現在運轉中的就有55個，興建中的就有21個，而且都是在沿海地區，然後再加上中國過去的reputation實在太糟糕了，很多東西都隱瞞、不公開，就光是這些疫情或者是未來如果有相關事件的時候，我們有沒有這個部分的因應？我想要提的就是，剛剛也提到如果發生境外核災，我們可能去監測的是空中的輻射，但是主委上任了，你有沒有注意境外核災處理作業要點已經是10年前的了？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個我再理解一下，但是我跟委員報告，境外核災，第一件事情，我們100年福島發生以後，我們跟中國大陸是有兩岸的……"],["陳委員靜敏：所以這個就是福島事件之後做的？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。第二個，我們其實是密切、頻繁、定期在做聯絡，剛才我提到核安監管中心，它是一個單一管道的聯絡窗口、24小時。第三個，我們臺灣整個有120座固定式的環境輻射監測站……"],["陳委員靜敏：我知道，剛剛我都坐那裡全程聽，就是相關的監控我們都有。我剛剛的問題是，對於這樣子的guideline，該增修的就要增修……"],["陳主任委員東陽：瞭解。"],["陳委員靜敏：譬如我們現在又有海委會，環保署也都改制變成環境部了，對於相關的角色、功能，我相信這些組織都需要再做澄清，好不好？"],["陳主任委員東陽：瞭解。"],["陳委員靜敏：第二個，我要表達感謝，我在上次11月1日質詢的時候，核安會立刻、馬上地回復，我覺得這是政府非常負責任的態度。這個回復也提到了對於相關核子事故，因為護理人員的人數優勢、在社區的可近性，所以就像我們提到的，Nurses 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date了。所以我希望主委能夠承諾，面對不穩定的國際局勢，以及不斷精進的核子科技技術，針對護理人員的教育訓練不能再拖，除了怎麼樣子讓護理人員被保護、被尊重，還有就是應變措施，我都覺得這些該應變的卻還沒有應變。","最後一題其實剛剛也有委員提到了，就是選舉將近，大概有很多人丟出來一些非常匪夷所思的策略，譬如趙少康、侯友宜就提到2030年核電要增加5倍，那是怎樣？每個縣市都要蓋核電廠才夠，是吧？這種政策完全都是天馬行空、做不到的事情，我不曉得核安會會不會做解釋？我看過了很多，譬如像中研院就很棒，雖然都是他們自己院內的演講、什麼，他們就可以拍成YouTube的影片，流量都非常地高，而且他們的宣傳費用一年才28萬而已。但是核安會現在也有YouTube，「歹勢」，你知道流量多少嗎？你有做相關的解釋嗎？所以我要講的就是這些而已。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝委員的指教。第一個，有關於全民溝通這些部分，我們會來精進。第二個，醫護人員這個部分，我們做了很大的努力，基本上就是維護醫療環境的安全、醫護人員的安全、受醫民眾的安全，這個部分我們有一些細節，可能我們會後會請同仁提供給委員。"],["陳委員靜敏：好，我想可能要更具體、系統化的東西，怎麼樣子確保大家都懂。"],["陳主任委員東陽：瞭解。"],["陳委員靜敏：然後不合時宜的訊息，我覺得核安會要能夠即時去公告，告訴大家這些可能就是天馬行空、支票開一開而已。"],["陳主任委員東陽：瞭解。"],["陳委員靜敏：謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝陳委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請張其祿委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-22-9","speakers":["鄭麗文","張廖萬堅","陳秀寳","黃國書","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","陳靜敏","張其祿","范雲","陳椒華","鄭正鈐","萬美玲","劉世芳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查 113 年度\n中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1129302_00001"}}},{"id":"148792","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148792","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d42348c8ace1c3c43900d4f30f66da3334563ec986728e607a0322a5d303fbad1cac0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:26:49 - 10:37:21","影片長度":"00:10:32","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。\n三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案。\n(第三案如未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答，相關提案請於12月1日中午12時前提出。)\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-10-8-22-9"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":632,"end_time":"2023-11-29T10:37:21+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T10:26:49+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1324,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時27分）謝謝主席。請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：吳委員早！"],["吳委員思瑤：主委早！大家辛苦，大家早安！原能會改制成為核安會，核研所也成為國原院，而且行政法人化了，所以本席期待我們不只在核安管制上，甚至在原子能相關科技的民生應用發展，都應當更有力，都應當更升級，今天我針對核醫製藥中心一些長期應當改革的問題就教於主委。","首先，有關用原子能科技來研發核醫藥物，我們已經成立了26年的核醫製藥中心是臺灣唯一一個具規模而且能夠合法供應核醫藥物的政府機構，當然他們扮演了非常重要的角色，能夠抑制長期都倚賴國外進口，我們能夠發揮在地生產的優勢，但是從2020年（3年前）我就提出了改革核醫藥物中心的4支箭，不外乎要去解決它設備老化的問題，解決它因為人員離退、人力短缺，以至於核心技術卡關的問題，當然更重要的是它的產能利用率低，那到底要怎麼改變？我今天站在這裡是這個屆期最後一次就教於您，現在也是審議預算的期間，所以我們要逐一來檢視。","首先，這個應當是思瑤率先在立法院大力協助我們原能會來爭取的，我們要採購最新型的70MeV迴旋加速器，我原本很開心，我審議預算的時候也都提案，幫助大家編列預算，國會支持，可是我赫然發現不是只有採購，它還要有相關研究室的建置，昨天我們研究室建置的標案剛開標完成，是嗎？應該是昨天開標完成吧！我的資訊是這樣。"],["陳主任委員東陽：土建的部分啦！"],["吳委員思瑤：OK，整個完成建置，包括土建、機電、迴旋加速器、同位素研製、質子照射實驗室、中子應用實驗室及系統工程加起來，我蒐集的資料是至少還要再3年半，也就是2027年，是需要這麼久嗎？主委，加速器是加速器，要加速啊！"],["陳主任委員東陽：瞭解，那有一點複雜度，7.5億的土建，9億的實驗設施（facility），它要用四年的預算來編的確有一些難度，特別是在土建的部分，現在原物料上漲，招標不容易……"],["吳委員思瑤：當然，碰到問題了。"],["陳主任委員東陽：它面臨諸多困難，它的control權其實並不完全在國原院，但是我們會……"],["吳委員思瑤：那我們趕快請行政院跨部會協助，請工程會來幫忙啊！這麼重要的建置！"],["陳主任委員東陽：的確我們正在進行當中，我們會裡面也有一個專案小組在輔導及協助國原院，看看有什麼困難可以來理解，我們有一位研究員是從工程委員會來的，也在monitor這件事情，謝謝委員的關心。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，希望能夠協助你們，需要外援就外援，畢竟還需要工程專家。我非常期待，當然越快越好，為什麼呢？因為現有機組已經30年了，雖然去年在疫情期間因為國外的進口不順利，所以確實這幾年讓它的產能是2.25倍，比起過去長期閒置在那裡，那是因為疫情的關係，有一個現實是國外的藥進不來，但它畢竟還是30年的老機器，歲修期間還是造成我們大量缺藥的問題，就像去年的新聞，救心臟的藥──鉈201，這關係到國人的健康、需要救急救命的，竟然還要再等三、四個月。如果新機器的建置，包括土建、研究室的facility還需要時間，那麼現有機組就應當協助它扮演足夠產量的功能。尤其核醫精準的醫藥研發，我們也需要借助於未來的70MeV，但是現在的30MeV就儘量勉為撐住嘛！太空產業更需要加入原能會核研所（現為國原院）的太空輻射環境驗測聯盟，我們也加入了。這樣的中心本身除了在製藥研發的部分扮演重要角色，未來對於新興的太空任務，我們也需要提供我們的專業，所以到底怎麼辦呢？我們可以看到2022年一年停機高達21次，史上新高，所以它不斷的歲修、不斷的停機，也不斷的要設備更新，30年的老機器到底該怎麼辦啊！諸位，我希望聽到好消息。"],["陳主任委員東陽：它有不同階段的任務，就我的理解，30MeV是過去的階段，它的作用在於detection，也就是用來檢測；70MeV它有精準醫療的功能，就是進一步做一些治療，當然……"],["吳委員思瑤：但70MeV還要等好幾年啊！"],["陳主任委員東陽：對，但這是沒有辦法的事情，不過我們在逐步努力當中，我請高院長來說明。"],["吳委員思瑤：我很擔心在等新的加速器建置完成這段時間的空窗，我姑且稱之為空窗是因為這段時間太空任務新加進來了，我們核醫製藥在地生產的優勢也應當把握住，會不會因為這段時間的空窗期，現有30MeV這個加速器本身的設備老舊，因而讓我們這幾年的黃金時間流逝了？競爭力就降低了？"],["高院長梓木：報告委員，我說明一下，70MeV事實上在義大利有個相同機組，它蓋了7年，去年我去參訪已經11年了，還沒辦法如期運轉。其實當時是配合國人的需求，我們把整個時程壓縮到4年，目前的進程應該是還可以，有機會如期如質完成。"],["吳委員思瑤：好。"],["高院長梓木：加速器購案已經在今年年初採購，大概七億多，另外土建的部分，就是像剛剛主委所說因為缺工缺料的問題，我們昨天……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那我們願意等待，等待是值得的，但現有的機組本身全面提升呢？"],["高院長梓木：30MeV在前兩年我接任的時候，原來的故障率是26%，後來承諾立法院要逐年降低到12%、13%，現在故障率到去年、前年都是大概維持在10%左右，有改善……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以現在可控了。"],["高院長梓木：今年到目前為止的故障率大概只有5%以下。"],["吳委員思瑤：就我手上的資料，你看這張圖表2022年它的停機次數到21次耶！"],["高院長梓木：是，它的停機次數雖然多，但那是因為更換射頻放大器，那是我們主要的主件，大概花了五、六千萬來更換這個主件，更換主要主件以後，它大概……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以現在主件已經更換好了？"],["高院長梓木：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：現在我們可以看到這幾年它的產能利用率就相對會提升了。"],["高院長梓木：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那我非常期待從你口中得知這樣正面的消息好嗎？"],["高院長梓木：所以我們從109年的3,700萬、110年大概是6,400萬，去年是8,400萬，今年預估會超過……"],["吳委員思瑤：這些預算的支用我們都全力支持，我甚至每次審議預算都提案來support你們。"],["高院長梓木：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：另外一個問題就是核醫製藥中心的人員，我認為行政法人就是讓它更有彈性、更容易聘到人，可是現在不是啊！最低維運人數要45人，結果升格、行政法人化以後，到現在人力反而是減少的，這個就讓我很難接受啊！"],["高院長梓木：這部分我們分五年會逐年把人力補齊，前面補了兩年還不夠，今年年底我們會招募，因為國原院有一個機制就是行政法人可以公開招募，所以我們同位素應用組會補足9個，今年馬上就要到年底了，明年1月1日就可以補足9位員工，然後我們會逐年把42人全部補齊。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝院長的說明，那就善用行政法人的優勢，我期待增補人力真的不要讓我們再等下去，最後是不是可以請主委綜合回復？"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝高院長，其實他也是70MeV的總計畫主持人，他對這個案子非常瞭解，同時也做了很多努力，我們會裡面會來支援，跟行政院高層做一些計畫的……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我們無論如何都是正向期待，但人力的增補是另外一個hard issue，我們要全力來克服它。"],["陳主任委員東陽：他們最近才剛改制為行政法人，所以有一段過渡期間，將來用人可能會更為彈性。"],["吳委員思瑤：希望善用行政法人的彈性，好不好？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：儘快補強，辛苦了！"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，謝謝吳委員。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請陳靜敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-22-9","speakers":["鄭麗文","張廖萬堅","陳秀寳","黃國書","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","陳靜敏","張其祿","范雲","陳椒華","鄭正鈐","萬美玲","劉世芳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查 113 年度\n中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1129302_00001"}}},{"id":"148791","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148791","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d423486040dcc37cf6a8d8500069142ad034a1c986728e607a0322fb377b89261b63d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"湯蕙禎","委員發言時間":"10:17:43 - 10:36:05","影片長度":"00:18:22","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員陳明文等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員游毓蘭等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員周春米等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員何志偉等29人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳椒華等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林靜儀等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員莊競程等26人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員陳靜敏等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n三、審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-10-8-36-23"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":1102,"end_time":"2023-11-29T10:36:05+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T10:17:43+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":498,"blocks":[["湯委員蕙禎：（10時17分）謝謝主席。大家早！昨天報紙報導檢察官痛斥10位軍官違背身為軍人最基本的忠誠義務，因為個人利慾薰心，竟向中共效忠，敬請法院從重量刑。因為過去輕判，所以很多人就不足為懼，民眾也很反彈，一直質疑為什麼法院對這種事判這麼輕，他們根本就不怕，拿到的代價，他們也覺得還蠻合算。我先請教國防部王副處長，這是國防部政戰系統接獲檢舉的案子，請問這個案子是什麼時候檢舉的？"],["王副處長秉豐：細部的部分，我們再跟委員報告。"],["湯委員蕙禎：喔，不知道？"],["王副處長秉豐：是。"],["湯委員蕙禎：OK，好。這個案子發生以後，不曉得國防部政戰系統是不是有繼續指導、教育所有國軍在國家認同方面，到底哪一個國家才是我們的國家？當然，連我們立委都有人說祖國在中國，我們認為祖國、祖籍那是大家都有的原生國，如果對自己現在的國家老是認識不清，我想這會影響國防的安全、國家的安全，不曉得你們在政戰教育上有沒有再加強？"],["王副處長秉豐：跟委員報告，我們國防部保防教育是不斷利用各種時機在做教育的部分，對所有官兵都是如此，最近我們也利用莒光園地，邀請最高檢察總長、調查局局長，還有我們法律司司長、作戰局局長等等，針對有關洩密的部分進行教育、研討，莒光園地是每個禮拜四全軍官兵都會收視，藉由這個研討會來加強教育所有官兵的國家認同感，我們國軍是唯一的，不可以有任何的偏頗。"],["湯委員蕙禎：好，如何加強，針對施以教育的時間表或相關程序，能不能給我們一份資料，讓我們知道現在正在積極做的是怎樣的教育？又相關教育的內容、莒光日的內容，是不是也給我們知道？"],["王副處長秉豐：是。"],["湯委員蕙禎：好，那我請教育部黃副司長。因為從小的教育很重要，如果從小常常被一些新聞報導誤導，而我們沒有給他很清楚的認知，過去我們已經深受其害，因為過去我們要熟讀中國的歷史跟地理，對臺灣的反而不清楚，不過後來國立編譯館慢慢有在調整，但我不曉得學校教育是不是也有加強這些教育？"],["黃副司長蘭琇：是，報告委員，其實教育部結合12年國教課綱有些重要議題的融入，包括剛才委員提到一些對於媒體識讀以及資訊素養的教育都結合課綱落實在各教育階段的學校課程裡面，除了課綱以外，我們也搭配一些主題式的課程，讓老師在適時的課程裡面去進行相關的引導。近幾年來配合行政院整體關於錯假訊息的推動措施，其實部裡有成立一個媒體素養的推動小組，我們希望不管是在我們的終身司、資科司以及各個教育階段，我們來強化相關對於這些錯假訊息的認識跟了解，這部分我們也結合國防教育的推動，這個其實也是國防教育的一環，對於資訊素養的取得以及錯假訊息的掌握，我們都持續地加以推動。"],["湯委員蕙禎：很好，因為愛國教育真的是很重要，不要愛錯國家了，好，謝謝，請坐。","請教司法院吳秘書長，因為法務部已經建請法院從重量刑了，我們院方這邊不曉得最近受理到類似這種案子是怎麼判刑，是不是可以做出一覽表給我們？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這一部分我們彙整之後會向委員提出書面的報告，針對最近的一些判決情形都有在彙整。"],["湯委員蕙禎：好，因為最近報紙打開都覺得觸目驚心，因為現在宮廟活動，他們統促黨都會把布條掛上去，其實我們在公部門上班，在民政局工作的時候就已經發現有里長是統促黨，他就標出來自己就是統促黨的里長，我想這已經讓大家覺得這個好像明目張膽或者很明言地講這件事情，我在想，對於國家認同是哪裡出問題？當然我們知道修憲的條文上面都有寫，因應國家統一前的需要而增修的條文，開宗明義這樣寫著，所以我想對於國家認同，未來我們的國家要統一，如何統一？臺灣統一中國嗎？好像是緣木求魚，不太可能的事情，而且我們也不喜歡過那種生活或者它那種制度，我們是不喜歡的，所以我想我們看了這些新聞是觸目驚心啦！我想這個部分會有點錯亂。我在第三屆擔任國大代表修憲，後來在功能型國大的時候就發現這樣的一個問題，臺灣很多人對於統一已經認知不清了，所以我想這個問題非常嚴重。","我們再看到最近中國介選，其實在民國100年的時候，本席就有受邀過去，只要準備自己的飛機票，其他就落地招待，那個時候就很多了，到現在越來越嚴重，尤其在大選的時候，一批一批上岸去落地招待，現在我相信這種案子也很多，現在開始在查了，現在是調查局在查的嘛！不曉得次長這邊是不是曉得調查局在大量地去查？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，相關有沒有涉及介選的案件，事實上我們各地檢署都有在偵辦，已經在偵辦，像昨天橋頭地檢署有發布一個新聞嘛！也是有一個可能涉及境外介選的案件，它有進行相關的偵查動作，也發布新聞稿。"],["湯委員蕙禎：對，它是說可能要查到一些構成要件，比如有說要支持誰，對不對？好像有這樣一個構成要件，還有一個就是要有明確的經費來源，要這兩項，不過這大家都知道的事情啦！如果這兩件他們弄到讓你看不出來，你怎麼去對這個案子去偵查起訴？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，當然要符合我們選罷法的規定有一定的構成要件，譬如說它要行求期約或交付賄賂或不正利益，這第一個；第二個、它之間是不是有對價的關係，這對價關係檢察官都要證明，但沒有錯，這個發生在境外對檢察官來講並不是不可以偵辦，只是蒐證上也許會比發生在境內稍微困難一點點，但是偵查犯罪本來就是檢察官的天職，也許比較困難但是還是可以偵辦，這是沒有問題的。"],["湯委員蕙禎：還是可以。因為像我們有一位臺大政治系副教授在說，他說地方村里長，其實現在好像也不止了，里民也去了，里鄰長都去了，然後也有宮廟的一些執事也上岸了，或者連媒體，不管是哪一種媒體的記者也被招待了，甚至客家團體統統上路，我想整個我們的LINE群組裡面幾乎充斥了中共那邊過來的一些訊息，所以這個情形變成非常嚴重，對於我們未來臺灣的安全非常嚴重，將來怎麼樣去面對萬一有戰爭的時候，這種東西很難說對不對？內部先催化，讓我們臺灣要抵抗中共一點都沒有力氣了，我想這個很嚴重。我再問一下吳秘書長，對於剛才講說要重判的事情，我想治亂世用重典，我們院方判決的時候是不是也考慮一下？不然嚴重到會動搖國本耶！"],["吳秘書長三龍：在實務上如何合乎時宜來做判決是很重要的。"],["湯委員蕙禎：我想我們檢方、檢察官都已經要求重刑，不用重刑不足立威信，我相信院檢一定要定這樣子的重刑，治亂世用重典，沒有辦法，這個會影響到國家安全的事情，檢方已經有這樣的一個想法、概念了，我相信院方也一定要有這樣的一個看法。","好，另外在針對假訊息的問題，前幾位委員一直在講 AI或Deepfake那種把人臉辨識或者是做假的影像來混淆大家的視聽，現在紐約時報有在講，中國對臺灣的侵略企圖非常明顯，新一波的假訊息攻勢針對我們明年的大選，臺灣好像做好準備，其實沒有。另外剛才我們還講到說臺灣能不能繼續抵抗這些假訊息，它說像我們蔡總統、副總統都有假訊息、假的影片，也說政府參與加密貨幣投資軟件，因為從「軟件」來發現這是中國的用語，刑事局因而判斷該影片是經由深偽技術來生成，它認為這是中國方面製作的，剛才一直在問說趕快還其清白，當然以我們臺灣的技術應該不是什麼大問題，應該也有機會把真假辨識清楚，剛才講，其實是真的就假不了，是假的就真不了，技術上有沒有問題？在鑑識方面有沒有問題？黃次長你這邊有沒有問題？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，魔高一尺道高一丈啦！就是說隨著科技的進步，我們偵查機關的鑑識技巧要更加進步，事實上我們在臺高檢已經成立相關的鑑識中心，各地檢署也有自己的鑑識中心，也不斷擴充或是強化有關鑑識深偽方面的技術，我們的專業機構比如調查局或刑事警察局，他們都有這方面的專業知識去做處理，以上跟委員報告。"],["湯委員蕙禎：道高一尺，魔高一丈，其實魔真的很厲害！當然我們希望魔高一丈，道更高兩丈，我相信會更高，因為邪不勝正，我們希望能真假立辨。","最後我再講一件事，中國的假訊息操作也有顯著的效果，我們國內現在正在大選，這常常被拿來利用或作為政黨辯論、鬥爭的一個話題，所以我們在想，既然有政黨在提就趕快，若是真的就應該不用怕，我想我們司法體系、法務體系還是以發現真實為主，不要讓這些是是非非、謠傳真的太嚴重而影響我們臺灣，臺灣的治安不應該這麼嚴重、越來越嚴重，很可怕！所以司法界還是要儘速。","最後我還有一個問題要問法務部這邊，關於加密貨幣，很多人被詐騙以後，錢還在錢包裡頭，人家已經擋下來了，結果檢察官一直不能發裁定，使得被扣住的加密貨幣、受害者的錢拿不回來，我們很擔心加密貨幣的保管時效一過就會被加害人、行為人取走，所以請次長幫我們再進一步瞭解，好不好？被害人已經把該怎麼處理的訊息，取別的國家的前車之鑑，或者把他們怎麼解決問題的方法告訴我們了，我們到現在還遲遲未解決，是不是請次長再幫忙追一下？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這要看扣押物是證物還是得沒收之物，如果是相關的扣押物，依據訴訟法的規範，如果檢察官或法院認為沒有繼續保留的必要，本來就應該要發還給扣押所有權人，現在檢察官還沒有發還，代表這個個案他認為還有繼續扣押的必要，因為我不曉得委員講的是哪一個個案……"],["湯委員蕙禎：不是，不是指犯罪的扣押之物，而是國際詐騙集團透過加密貨幣把它騙去了，現在在錢包裡面，已經透過一些系統把它按住，不要讓這些犯罪行為人把錢領走。這個案子我們跟部長也談過，一直想要追，但怎麼追到現在還沒有動靜？我們怕時效一過，錢又被領走了，很難得錢被保留下來，不要讓他領走，這是第一件案例。如果沒有保留住，我們也希望作為下一個案子的案例，能有方法把錢留住，不要讓這些犯罪行為人領走，減少犯罪行為人可乘之機，請次長幫忙。"],["黃次長謀信：好。"],["主席：謝謝湯蕙禎委員。因為我們有重要的貴賓來訪，請我們的召集人回座來做慎重的介紹。"],["主席（湯委員蕙禎）：好，謝謝。現在我們有貴賓，先介紹我們旁聽席上的參訪貴賓，是馬來西亞雪蘭莪州議會的參訪代表，第一位是馬來西亞雪蘭莪州議會劉永山議長，歡迎、歡迎，謝謝；第二位是馬來西亞雪蘭莪暨吉隆坡留台同學會吳保強會長，吳會長好，歡迎兩位。另外陪同到場的是羅美玲委員，也是我們內政委員會的召委，謝謝。","繼續請張其祿委員，張其祿委員、張其祿委員未到。","下一位請吳怡玎委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-36-23","speakers":["湯蕙禎","陳椒華","陳靜敏","曾銘宗","王鴻薇","賴香伶","江永昌","吳怡玎","林淑芬","劉建國","謝衣鳯","林思銘","鄭運鵬","吳琪銘"],"page_start":303,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員陳\n明文等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員林楚茵等20 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條\n文修正草案」案、 ( 五)委員蔡易餘等20 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條\n之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七) 委員游毓蘭等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正\n草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員周春米等27 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員何志偉\n等29 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 委員陳椒華等27 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員林靜儀等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟\n法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員莊競程等26 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八\n十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員陳靜敏等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正\n草案」案、( 八) 委員劉建國等16 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案；三、\n審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1129301_00002"}}},{"id":"148790","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148790","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d423487e0e0de65a206ecaf30f66da3334563ec986728e607a0322308a408405d80ecd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:19:30 - 10:26:46","影片長度":"00:07:16","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。\n三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案。\n(第三案如未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答，相關提案請於12月1日中午12時前提出。)\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-10-8-22-9"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":436,"end_time":"2023-11-29T10:26:46+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T10:19:30+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1284,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時19分）好，謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委早安。"],["陳主任委員東陽：早。"],["陳委員培瑜：我想我們今天非常多委員都提到了關於這個，我們想要跟主委來聊一聊關於核安、輻安科普的事情。其實在核安會裡面有非常非常多的訊息真的需要持續跟全民積極的溝通，讓大家可以更安心，這件事情我相信主委也是高度認同。","我們來看一下，其實在你們的業務報告當中有提到，關於社會溝通的部分，你們一直有成立所謂的「全民參與委員會」。我們來看一下這個「全民參與委員會」的會議紀錄裡面，我們看到109年開了1次會，到了110年開了3次，111年2次，112年截至目前為止我們看到只開了1次會。我們很想問一下關於這個會議召開的頻率及相關時間點到底是怎麼抓的，我們想要聽一下你們的說明。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝委員。我想我先請我們李綺思組長來做一些說明。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，謝謝。"],["李組長綺思：報告委員，依照我們的規定，就是1年開2次，今年的第2次我們也預計在12月底之前會召開，以上。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以原本你們就寫好，就是1年2次，如果這個1年2次的頻率是固定的，110年當時3次的原因是因為？"],["李組長綺思：跟委員報告，當然如果有特殊的狀況，委員隨時可以邀集來召開會議，就是臨時會議，我們全民參與委員會這個會議最重要的目的就是就教於各界，對我們在宣導溝通上面的方法或是方式或是管道有什麼建議事項，都歡迎委員給我們指教，以上。"],["陳委員培瑜：就是相關委員會裡面的委員，但是我相信……"],["陳主任委員東陽：是，除了……"],["陳委員培瑜：不好意思！主委，您先說。"],["陳主任委員東陽：學者專家，其實還有社會溝通人士、社運人士，組成非常的多元。"],["陳委員培瑜：就是所謂的專家學者、社會公正人士或者是民間團體代表擔任這個全民參與委員會的委員……"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，完全正確。"],["陳委員培瑜：其實我們有看相關的報告。我們是想要建議，除了您剛剛說原本是訂定1年2次，但是我相信不管是含氚廢水的事情或者是剛剛有非常多委員提到核電廠核廢料的事情，是不是你們有機會內部考慮與討論增加它的頻率及密度，讓大家在這些事情上可以有更多的共識和討論的機會，促進跟全民溝通的部分？"],["陳主任委員東陽：很好的建議，我會請業務單位來做評估，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。我相信這件事情應該是非常重要，尤其是對於一般民眾，甚至對於很多地方父母官來說，所有你們討論出來的結論、你們所傳達出來的資訊都非常非常重要。","接下來想跟你們討論關於輻安管理的部分，我們在你們的業務報告裡面看到，根據國際國民輻射醫療劑量調查的結果顯示，在介入性血管診療手術裡面所使用的心導管還有血管攝影用的X光機等等，上次我也跟主委請教過，你們在今年特別把這兩件事情納入相關的品保作業，我相信你們是不是開始要為相關的醫護人員或是相對的病患做出更重要、更謹慎的相關健康狀況的追蹤，所以你們才會把這個納入今年的業務報告，我們可不可以請你們說明一下？"],["陳主任委員東陽：的確，這個部分其實是我們核安會在民生用途上面非常重要的一個業務，特別對於不同scale、等級的醫療院所醫護人員做一些輔助性……"],["陳委員培瑜：就是他們的曝露風險到底是什麼，還有他們從業之後的相關健康狀況……"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，特別……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如同我剛剛說的，這個是主委或者是您的幕僚所同意的，目前我們可以看到你們追蹤的方向或者是你們預計如何進行這個相關健康狀況的追蹤，可不可以請你們說明一下，讓大家可以更放心？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，我請輻防組張組長來做一些說明。"],["張組長淑君：報告委員，我們在今年有正式納入第12項的醫療品保，就是心導管的攝影，但是因為它的一個屬性是要配合醫生即時看病患的病灶來去做曝露，所以在這一部分的推動下，我們更會與醫生來做實際臨床上的溝通，不要因為我們推動這個品保曝露進而去干預到了醫生的醫療行為。"],["陳委員培瑜：我相信這樣的專業溝通對話應該是不會有任何問題，可是因為你們已經納入你們的業務報告裡面，我們也就希望你們持續的協助追蹤，而且相關從業人員連續5年追蹤報告，我們也期待在後續的追蹤當中可以看到你們更謹慎的為相關從業人員或者是相對的病患提供這個健康上的保障，好嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，謝謝。簡單來講，對於醫療環境輻射的保險，第二個、對於醫療人員、醫護人員，第三個、對於就醫民眾，維持一個健康的環境，簡單來講是這樣。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個部分我們希望可以看到更積極的作法……"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後跟您討論關於游離輻射防護法，我們看到你們在91年訂定這個法之後，到目前為止沒有任何的調修，可是我們看到核安會做的所有事情裡面有包含在國內進行輻射防護法精進的相關研究，一直有在進行，還有追蹤國際上法規修正的動態，也有在進行，我們看到你們在111年到112年相關業務也預告要擬訂防護法相關修正草案，甚至在112年6月你們自己也說要進行相關法規修正的預告作業，可是目前我們在這份新的業務報告裡面完全沒有看到這個部分的進度，也沒有看到送進立法院的院版草案，而且你們在來年的預算裡面還是編了一個新的4年期1,500萬的預算，所以我們想要請主委說明一下相關子法修正的進度及目前規劃的內容與方向。"],["陳主任委員東陽：我的瞭解，現在112年底，這個案子我們明年初會送到立法院來請各位委員指教，主要有一些精神，第一個、符合國際的趨勢，第二個、我們增加了一些罰款的條件，總共修了大概十幾條，非常細節……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以我們可以期待看到相關的子法修正草案……"],["陳主任委員東陽：瞭解。"],["陳委員培瑜：關於這個預算的部分，我相信大家是願意支持的，只要你們在這個修法上與國際的動態討論是有在配合，我相信大家是會支持的。如果我們有相關問題，我們會再跟你們請教。"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，謝謝陳委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，以上，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請吳思瑤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-22-9","speakers":["鄭麗文","張廖萬堅","陳秀寳","黃國書","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","陳靜敏","張其祿","范雲","陳椒華","鄭正鈐","萬美玲","劉世芳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查 113 年度\n中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1129302_00001"}}},{"id":"148789","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148789","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d423484634bfb46ebcb78b36d81ac9a092bbedc986728e607a03224e7b8108220222bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:14:35 - 10:21:59","影片長度":"00:07:24","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算。\n三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。\n四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。\n五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部中央氣象署單位預算。\n（二、工程會預算案與一、業務報告合併詢答後進行處理，四及五已詢答完畢，本日進行處理）\n（工程會預算提案於112年11月27日中午12時截止收件）\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-10-8-23-10"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":444,"end_time":"2023-11-29T10:21:59+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T10:14:35+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1271,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時14分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請吳主委。"],["主席：吳主委請。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員你好。"],["陳委員素月：主委早安。我們知道工程會是政府採購的主管機關，重要的業務當然就是修訂政府採購法跟範本，讓相關部會有依循的法令，讓整個採購的流程可以更完善，也避免弊端。其實我在地方常常會遇到很多的業務單位，就是發包單位，他們也很怕遇到得標的廠商是不良廠商，擺爛，也有廠商很怕遇到刁難的業主，在這樣的狀況下，後來很多工程也會衍生一些爭議，就是有爭議的情況，所以我們知道工程會有另外一個重要的業務，就是工程爭議的調處。我們從公共工程委員會的統計資料，即最近這三年（2020年、2021年、2022年）我們有收到申請調解的案子跟後來我們結案的統計數字來看，可以看出平均調解成立的比例大概是八成左右，等於還有兩成是調解無法成功的，這部分工程會有沒有去分析、瞭解沒有成功的這兩成大概是什麼樣的狀況？"],["吳主任委員澤成：沒有成功達成共識的部分應該是雙方的認知差距太大，沒有能夠來同意，這裡面我們還是會再繼續，以前是他們不成立，我們就算了，但現在我們已經做到即使不成立，我們仍然要提出我們的建議跟方案，讓他能夠進一步去採用；如果再不行，那只好走入另外一個程序。"],["陳委員素月：通常調解不成的話，他們可能會走入訴訟的程序。"],["吳主任委員澤成：仲裁或訴訟。"],["陳委員素月：其實很多公共工程衍生爭議的時候，就會造成工程延宕，如果是公務機關的話，對公務機關的形象其實是傷害滿大的，因為一般民眾不會去瞭解這個工程延宕到底是發生了什麼問題或者是發生了什麼爭議。以我的選區為例，田中火車站有個無障礙設施跟電梯工程的發包，這個工程延宕很久了，整個車站外觀，就是它的圍籬一直圍著，也造成地方鄉親在搭車時的抱怨，因為下雨天的時候，等於他們沒有一個遮雨的地方，非常地不方便。這個工程延宕很久，甚至很多年輕學生也在網路社群留言，曾經有一個學生說，從他讀大學搭火車出外讀書，到他畢業了，這個圍籬都還沒拆，可見這個延宕超過4年以上，我覺得他講得很貼切，可是也很諷刺。針對這樣的狀況，目前據我瞭解，業主單位跟廠商已經進入司法程序，在互相提告，這一件案子，工程會有收到他們申請調處嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：像這樣的情況，我覺得如果現在還存在那邊，照理講，我們在列管上應該會發現，如果沒有發現的話，我們會馬上來瞭解、來協助它處理。有時候不一定要等到爭議完才能夠去動，也可以採取相關的策略，可以先進行工程，也可以這樣做。"],["陳委員素月：因為目前他們已經在進行司法程序，就是互相提告的狀況，所以對廠商來說，他不拆圍籬，因為他說這是他證據保存的狀態，可是這樣的話，對整個外觀形象或是旅客進出都非常不方便，其實對政府的形象傷害也很大，因為旅客、鄉親並不知道這樣子的延宕到底是發生什麼狀況。"],["吳主任委員澤成：如果我們沒有能夠去發現這個問題、去協助處理，是我們不對的地方，既然今天委員提出來了，我會馬上去加以瞭解並協助處理，不應該等到訴訟完成再來解決工程，不能這樣。"],["陳委員素月：對啊，不能這樣子！除了田中火車站之外，我們也看到媒體報導，其實臺南火車站也一樣有這樣的延宕狀況，也是延宕5年了，對於這樣子的工程延宕，對我們來說，一般人都會覺得非常的……"],["吳主任委員澤成：不應該！"],["陳委員素月：離譜、不應該，所以就這個部分，我們希望工程會能夠主動去瞭解，也能夠主動去……"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，我們馬上來瞭解。"],["陳委員素月：讓這個工程能夠趕快順利來進行。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["陳委員素月：另外，本席想請教一下，因為最近有看到媒體報導，有消防員在臉書爆料說，消防車的採購連續8年都由同一家廠商得標，應該是占大部分，它得標的比例非常高，可是在消防車的使用上，對於消防弟兄來說，他們覺得這個消防車的故障率非常高。所以有關消防員爆料的這件事情，工程會有沒有主動去關心？"],["吳主任委員澤成：像這樣的狀況，照理講，應該在稽核或查核上會去發現，但竟然沒有發現，我們會來加以瞭解。"],["陳委員素月：是，因為我覺得消防車真的是非常重要，我們想像一下，當發生火災的時候，消防車出勤，結果到現場發生故障、水壓不足，沒有辦法即時來救火，我覺得這是非常嚴重的問題。另外，根據消防弟兄的爆料，這個廠牌的消防車的鋼片上竟然沒有廠牌、型號、出廠日期跟水壓範圍的標示，我覺得這個可能是涉及到另外一個驗收的問題，所以有關這個爆料的弊案，我們希望工程會也能夠主動地去瞭解。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，馬上來瞭解。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員的發言。","下一位請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-23-10","speakers":["陳雪生","洪孟楷","李昆澤","陳歐珀","何欣純","陳椒華","陳素月","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳培瑜","邱顯智","張其祿","趙正宇","許智傑","傅崐萁","劉櫂豪"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129303","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129303_00002","1129303_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關\n於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算\n案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部\n中央氣象署單位預算","agenda_id":"1129303_00001"}}},{"id":"148788","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148788","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d4234815304bb45defef5d36d81ac9a092bbedc986728e607a0322d2a2c3f3bcd966965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳椒華","委員發言時間":"10:03:07 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10:14:19","影片長度":"00:11:12","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算。\n三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。\n四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。\n五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部中央氣象署單位預算。\n（二、工程會預算案與一、業務報告合併詢答後進行處理，四及五已詢答完畢，本日進行處理）\n（工程會預算提案於112年11月27日中午12時截止收件）\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-10-8-23-10"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":672,"end_time":"2023-11-29T10:14:19+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T10:03:07+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1225,"blocks":[["陳委員椒華：（10時3分）謝謝召委，請主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員，你好。"],["陳委員椒華：主委好。主委，今年9月8號你有親自率隊到宜蘭深溝水源生態園區，對不對？"],["吳主任委員澤成：對。"],["陳委員椒華：這個滋養22萬人用水，還有1,600公頃優良農地灌溉用水的地下水庫，我想這是我們宜蘭的一個特色，而且非常珍貴，雖然每天的出水在10萬噸以內，但我想它的保護非常重要、保育非常重要，主委說是不是？"],["吳主任委員澤成：對，其實我們深溝淨水場是從1932年就興建使用到現在，足夠可以供給宜蘭的西北地區二十幾萬人口的水量……"],["陳委員椒華：對，所以非常重要！主委……"],["吳主任委員澤成：這邊我要跟委員報告一下，它其實用的不是地下水，是伏流水，動態的伏流水。"],["陳委員椒華：是，是伏流水。主委應該對地下水跟伏流水的差別是非常瞭解的，對不對？"],["吳主任委員澤成：對。"],["陳委員椒華：所以浮流水是很脆弱，對不對？"],["吳主任委員澤成：它是一直在動態的流動……"],["陳委員椒華：就是說，如果沒有做好保育，這個部分其實要破壞也非常的快，也非常的快。"],["吳主任委員澤成：對。"],["陳委員椒華：本席進入立法院之後，也請一河局能夠針對這邊的伏流水做調查，目前第二年的調查報告出來了，主委應該瞭解對不對？"],["吳主任委員澤成：知道。"],["陳委員椒華：本席在前天也開了協調會，希望能夠繼續再把還沒有完成的調查完成，請問主委應該支持啦？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我覺得委員這個建議非常的正確，而且應該這樣做，因為伏流水沒有用，它一樣流掉。"],["陳委員椒華：另外，本席也有建議，因為這邊要畫自來水保護區比較困難，就是深溝園區的自來水保護區，因為它是取飲用水，劃設飲用水保護區或飲用水取水口一定距離的困難度比較低，只要宜蘭縣政府支持，由環境部公告，本席是建議要劃設飲用水水源水質保護區，請問主委是不是也可以支持？"],["吳主任委員澤成：大的方向朝劃設自來水保護區，這個是對的，但這個程序會比較冗長，我是覺得可以做的要先做，就以剛剛深溝園區來講，它是屬於蘭陽溪的舊河道，沒有去保護，結果它上游就被金車飲料變成一個飲料工廠，再上去其實都是以前舊軍營區，那個是國土的範圍，應該就這個部分可以去保護起來，我已經有要求他們應該這樣去做。"],["陳委員椒華：瞭解，本席認為飲用水保護區有它的重要性跟宣示性，因為影響的面積比較小，可以先來做階段性的推動。"],["吳主任委員澤成：對。"],["陳委員椒華：再來，針對生態檢核、節能減碳檢核，譬如說，我們現在很多公共工程把生態檢核項目裡面放進節能減碳，但是現在沒有罰則，也沒有拘束力，針對這個項目目前也只有參考依據，如果這樣實施下去，你認為成效會怎麼樣？"],["吳主任委員澤成：謝謝委員一直以來都很關心這方面的生態保護，我們也非常的重視，這個部分我們以前是從施工的時候才去碰觸到這個問題，現在不但已經拉前到設計，甚至於計畫的時候就應該去考慮這個問題。"],["陳委員椒華：好，因為剛剛提到的沒有罰則拘束力，也沒有建立課責的機制，2050淨零碳排，雖然我們這個年紀在2050年不是說看不到，但是我們要把制度面建立好，所以怎麼樣全面納入淨零碳排？在生態檢核或者是淨零碳排的制度面能夠把減碳的部分納進來，並訂定執行的期程還有執行的方法，這個部分主委你怎麼看呢？"],["吳主任委員澤成：這個部分我們現在準備從公共工程的設計、採購方面來著手，在設計的時候就應該去考量到儘量減少使用增加碳排量大的材料或工法。"],["陳委員椒華：工程會好像要階段性以材料面──營造業、鋼筋、水泥這邊要減碳。這樣子可能效果有限，怎麼樣做全面性的檢核機制？如果我們要達到2050淨零碳排，這個部分在公共工程先把它的制度面建起來，然後到2030年就要減30%，這樣可能才來得及，主委你覺得是嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們會從源頭就開始，一直到施工……"],["陳委員椒華：這個可能要全面的，不僅只是從材料面，我舉一個例子，譬如說現在SRF，因為我們要有自主能源或者是要有更多再利用、循環利用，但是SRF主要是塑膠類的，塑膠類用作能源其實也有排碳，本席有跟經濟部說這個不是再生能源，因為它是燒塑膠、燒化石燃料，那怎麼會是再生能源？所以也請公共工程會能夠將這個部分也納入，譬如說它減碳，那排碳多少、減碳多少也一定要來訂定，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，可以。"],["陳委員椒華：再來就是永續這個部分，綠色採購邁向永續的採購，我們知道如果用公共採購的力量來執行、來推動，應該會力量更大。歐盟有一套綠色公共採購的標準（GPP），GPP標準涵蓋產品認證等等，這些需要把永續循環原則納入標準的要求，建立綠色公共採購標準。主委，未來我們公共採購納入永續指標，將循環條件、循環度、可回收材質比例、包裝材料等面向納入採購標準，再導入現有的採購規定，來採用能支持循環經濟的商業模式。這個部分我想可以促進產業共生跟循環生態系統，全面性在制度面能夠讓永續更實質來落實。請問主委是不是可以研擬來推動？"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，我們納入來考量。"],["陳委員椒華：是不是可以把書面報告提交給我的國會辦公室，希望也可以給交委會。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["陳委員椒華：最後有一個針對活化閒置空間的議題，我們知道工程會稱閒置公共工程空間已活化減少，但是卻趕不上新增蚊子館的產生，請問主委如何避免我們中央跟地方的工程變成蚊子館？我們的管控把關機制要怎麼來訂呢？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們以前是把它閒置之後，再加以列管活化，現在我們已經改變成從開始要計畫的時候就去管控，在完成之後就要去使用、管理，避免讓它閒置，所以從源頭去管理，我們已經這樣做。"],["陳委員椒華：好。最後再跟主委請教營建工程土石方（以前叫廢土），因為費用的關係，本席也召開公聽會，如果能夠將營建剩餘土石方朝國有化、國家資產這樣的角度，讓它們進土資場，收費比較低，就比照公共工程進臺北港的價錢，他們自付運費送去，這樣就可以避免去倒在農地、倒在濕地，或者是被當作掩蓋事業廢棄物的工具材料。這個部分是不是請主委這邊能夠來整合內政部、環境部，好好的來推動這樣的一個方向？"],["吳主任委員澤成：非常謝謝陳委員一直在關心這一塊，這塊的問題真的非常的嚴重，以剛剛講的臺北港為例，今天如果沒有臺北港把遠期建設提早來吸納這個土石方的話，恐怕臺北都會區非常的嚴重。它現在已經進了3、4千萬方的土方進去。"],["陳委員椒華：主委，因為中南部也很嚴重，其實很多農地都被破壞了……"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們會全面來檢視……"],["陳委員椒華：可不可以儘快加快，讓民間的願意進土資場，費用降低，然後不要讓他們被亂倒。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，我們來努力。"],["陳委員椒華：謝謝，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝椒華委員。","下一位請陳素月委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-23-10","speakers":["陳雪生","洪孟楷","李昆澤","陳歐珀","何欣純","陳椒華","陳素月","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳培瑜","邱顯智","張其祿","趙正宇","許智傑","傅崐萁","劉櫂豪"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129303","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129303_00002","1129303_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關\n於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算\n案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部\n中央氣象署單位預算","agenda_id":"1129303_00001"}}},{"id":"148787","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148787","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d423487107b155ab35cf3336d81ac9a092bbedc986728e607a03226e2ee15e05c91bec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"09:52:56 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10:02:56","影片長度":"00:10:00","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算。\n三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。\n四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。\n五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部中央氣象署單位預算。\n（二、工程會預算案與一、業務報告合併詢答後進行處理，四及五已詢答完畢，本日進行處理）\n（工程會預算提案於112年11月27日中午12時截止收件）\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-10-8-23-10"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":600,"end_time":"2023-11-29T10:02:56+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T09:52:56+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1178,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（9時52分）謝謝主席──雪生召委，我們請主委。"],["主席：好，主委請。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員，你好。"],["何委員欣純：主委好。主委，我一向都很關心政府的資安問題，還有政府應該要協助民眾來識詐、防詐、打詐的問題，也許你會想說這跟我公共工程委員會有什麼關係，其實有很大的關係喔！第一個，我要請教一下，我們政府所有資安設備的採購跟公共工程委員會所宣示的公共採購是有關係的，現在我看到的是你們在9月份有訂定一個指引，並且要編專款來採購資安防護的相關設施設備，但是因為機關的資安層級不同，所以它所需要的資安防護設施設備以及他們對採購契約範本的要求也會跟著不同，像這個部分，我請教一下主委，我們現在是怎麼樣來分？是用個案來分還是用ABC不同資安等級的機關來分？你們是怎麼樣來區分？在公共採購的時候，不管是契約或者是相關的採購問題，你們是怎麼執行法令的解釋跟要求？"],["吳主任委員澤成：跟委員報告，有關資安採購，我們訂出的指引是兩方面，一方面是資安安全的防護方面，一方面是委員所關心的資訊採購發生很多爭議的問題，在資安方面，我們是協同數位部一起訂定的，必須從資訊安全的採購到軟體到整個安全的防護，我們是協同數位部一起來做防護的工作。"],["何委員欣純：是，所以接下來我就要請教，你說是協同數位發展部，就資安的部分，以我們在9月25號所拿到你們的作業指引來看，我比較關心三件事情，因為在這個指引裡面，你們認為各機關所提有關資安的中長程計畫應該依其資訊建設經費編列一定比例之資安經費，我第一個要請教的是一定比例是多少？你們又怎麼樣去盤點、要求及制定那個標準？第二個要請教的是我們開始做了嗎？因為我們現在正在審查明年度的預算，但是你這個作業指引是9月25號才出來的，意思是說在9月25號這份指引出來的當下，各部會的預算書已經在立法院了，所以第三個問題是到底在明年度的總預算裡面，各個部會有沒有按照你的指引去編列預算？主委，三個問題。"],["吳主任委員澤成：這個比例大概是5到7個percent……"],["何委員欣純：5到7個percent？"],["吳主任委員澤成：嗯，至於編列的情形，在這些計畫的審查過程當中我們會來加以確認。"],["何委員欣純：請問計畫的審查是誰審？"],["吳主任委員澤成：有關計畫的審查，比方說在計畫的時候國發會會做聯合的審查，工程會也會來加入。另外，在基本設計的部分我們也會來控管。"],["何委員欣純：基本設計的部分，你們會跟數位發展部來幫忙各部會的意思嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：對。"],["何委員欣純：是這樣子嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：對，來做一個確認。"],["何委員欣純：做一個確認，所以5到7%，不分資安的ABC等級嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：對。"],["何委員欣純：好。再請問一下，我剛剛所講的，你們在9月25號公布指引，但那個時候總預算已經在立法院了，請問一下，如果這個計畫的審查通過了，那部分的預算在明年總預算裡面編列了嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：它應該是涵蓋在總預算裡面去做一個提列。"],["何委員欣純：涵蓋在總預算裡面去做編列？"],["吳主任委員澤成：對。"],["何委員欣純：我是建議啦，主委，雖然這不是由你主責，而是數位發展部，但是因為公共採購是在我們公共工程委員會，你現在是做原則的指引，但是很多個案的特性，我再強調一次，每個部會的資安等級是不一樣的，因為資安等級不一樣，所以資安的設施、設備跟強度的要求也不一樣，在這樣的情況之下，預算5到7%這樣通案式的，適合嗎？這個我覺得你要再審慎地去思考一下，跟數位發展部好好的討論一下，好不好？主委，這是第一件事。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["何委員欣純：第二個，到底明年的總預算裡面有沒有相關的計畫跟資安的經費，我也請你去確認一下，為什麼？這會牽涉到我接下來要問的，因為如果政府資訊系統裡面的資安風險沒有降到最低，雖然你有訂定指引，雖然我要求一定要編預算要確保，但是民眾期待的是什麼？在看到有編列預算之後，還要看到什麼時候可以做到，如果可以提升政府各部會的資安防護，也許民眾的個資就不會loss掉、不會外洩，如果政府各單位對於識詐、防詐、阻詐可以幫民眾做得好的話，那民眾身家財產的喪失風險就有可能會降到最低，我要的是這個，要保護我們人民的生活跟財產。","接著，最近最流行的一個詐騙簡訊叫做水費，到昨天我的後援會系統地方群組裡面還有人收到這樣子的簡訊，當時我對數位發展部質詢的時候，還有對NCC質詢的時候，二個部會的首長都跟我保證，他們跟各大電信業者都已經協調好了，只要是有關詐騙的簡訊，一通都不會發得出去。但是我很抱歉地告訴你，很可惜、很遺憾的是，到現在像剛剛那樣的一個詐騙簡訊還在我們各地方群組、人民的手機上在流通，所以我要告訴你的重點是，即使是我們已經宣示了各電信業者會配合，簡訊的代收業者也已經配合了，絕對不會有詐騙簡訊，結果還是發生。我就問了唐鳳為什麼會這樣子，他跟我說唯一可以的解方是什麼，解方之一就是要111政府簡訊平臺，然後他還跟我承諾明年1月一定會正式上線。可是我要問主委，如果所有各部會的簡訊要能夠上得了111的簡訊平臺系統，就必須在你的電子採購網裡面、必須在你的公共採購裡面是有這個111簡訊平臺系統，可以讓各部會下單子給數位發展部或是下單子簽契約，成立了之後才可以去發111簡訊平臺系統啊。如果沒有這個過程，其實講的都是空話。所以主委，我要求的是什麼？如果像唐鳳部長所承諾的，明年1月各國營事業、各政府機關都能夠使用111簡訊平臺系統，讓我們的國人看到這個簡訊就知道這個是真的政府單位、國營事業所發的簡訊，不是假的，這個111簡訊平臺系統要在公共採購網上、要在電子採購裡面，讓各部會的採購人員看得到啊。主委，你覺得明年1月來得及嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：既然數位部已經有這樣的宣示要執行，那工程會就採購這方面的相關作業……"],["何委員欣純：數位發展部有跟你們討論過這件事了嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：有，他們有在溝通……"],["何委員欣純：有在溝通？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我同意剛剛委員的講法，我們可以從採購端這一邊的系統管理來勾稽，把它建立起來，讓它真正能夠落實。"],["何委員欣純：那你需要多久的時間？明年1月喔，唐鳳部長告訴我們明年1月希望各國營事業、各政府單位都能夠上這個111簡訊系統平臺喔！"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們配合他們來落實、要求……"],["何委員欣純：一定做得到嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們來配合辦理。"],["何委員欣純：因為我現在抓了幾個數字，是你們公共採購的行政流程所需要的時間，我把時間抓了一下，數位發展部說大概要44天到50天，就快2個月了，現在已經11月二十幾號了，快12月了啦。"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們來瞭解他們的作法，然後……"],["何委員欣純：到明年1月只剩下1個月，你來得及嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們儘量來配合。"],["何委員欣純：你們儘量配合？我是希望一定要做到！"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["何委員欣純：我希望明年1月我們不會再看到這些假的國營事業的簡訊，然後來詐騙民眾，這讓民眾對我們政府是失去信心耶！成立一個數位發展部，說我們是一個數位科技大國，結果我們連一個詐騙簡訊都不能防止，現在弄了一個111簡訊平臺，好，很好，但是要能夠上路，要能夠有用，如果上不了路，如果用不了，那也是白搭！所以主委，你的重要性是在這裡啊！公共採購，各部會、各國營事業的採購是要從你開始啊！所以要拜託你，好不好？"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，我們全力來做……"],["何委員欣純：明年1月，好不好？"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["何委員欣純：以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純召委。","下一位請陳椒華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-23-10","speakers":["陳雪生","洪孟楷","李昆澤","陳歐珀","何欣純","陳椒華","陳素月","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳培瑜","邱顯智","張其祿","趙正宇","許智傑","傅崐萁","劉櫂豪"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129303","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129303_00002","1129303_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關\n於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算\n案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部\n中央氣象署單位預算","agenda_id":"1129303_00001"}}},{"id":"148786","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148786","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d423488983d7dc8b6b8c94500069142ad034a1c986728e607a0322918409242d3ea2ab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"江永昌","委員發言時間":"09:56:28 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10:17:17","影片長度":"00:20:49","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員陳明文等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員游毓蘭等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員周春米等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員何志偉等29人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳椒華等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林靜儀等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員莊競程等26人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員陳靜敏等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n三、審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-10-8-36-23"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":1249,"end_time":"2023-11-29T10:17:17+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T09:56:28+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":453,"blocks":[["江委員永昌：（9時56分）謝謝召集人，就教於司法院秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["江委員永昌：今天審查的條文當中會有拒絕證言權，我就先問一下，這個拒絕證言權到底它的關係要擴展到多少？最近立法院剛通過家庭暴力防治法的修正案，你知道同性婚姻所產生的姻親在司法院釋字第七四八號解釋施行法當中並沒有直接準用民法第九百九十六條，這次家庭暴力防治法就給你講了，這個防治要及於本人跟配偶的四親等以內，這樣就連接上了喔！但其實我們現在對同性婚姻的姻親「不及於」的（因為它就沒有準用民法嘛），包括刑法的特定親屬犯，包括公務人員任用法長官對特定親屬迴避，包括民事訴訟法法官迴避，包括外國人停留居留，包括民法禁止近親等，這些它就沒有放進來。","所以你看，有的法律同性婚姻的姻親採用配偶的幾親等，有的法律則付諸闕如，那你今天要修了，你要知道喔！拒絕證言權總共有四種，第一種是公務人員身分，第二種就是親屬（馬上就遇到了），第三種是不自證己罪，第四種是職業信賴倫理。有關於會涉及連帶關係的，今天修法要不要把這個放進來？因為同性婚姻配偶的血親沒有辦法用姻親去處理。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員所提示的這個問題，我們會通盤研議看看怎麼處理……"],["江委員永昌：會不會通盤再修法呢？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為委員……"],["江委員永昌：你不修法動不了？"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員今天提出來，因為這個牽涉的層面還是有一定的……"],["江委員永昌：不是、不是，你可以講看法嘛！","比方說，有個父（母）親因為同性婚姻子女的伴侶而被傳喚去做證人的時候，立刻就遇到刑事訴訟法第一百八十條這個規定了啊！所以我現在提出這個問題。"],["吳秘書長三龍：就一些實體法如何解讀，在實務上會本於審判獨立，他會就相關法條……"],["江委員永昌：審判獨立？跟你講，要法有明定啦，不是審判獨立，法不明定，審判再怎麼獨立也沒用。你以為我只講這點哦？後面一堆來了！我跟你講，刑法第三百十六條這些職業是有信賴倫理的，也包括社會功能要繼續進行，所以不可以無故洩密，當然，如果因為訴訟去洩密，他可能會排除「無故」，這裡面有十種人：醫師、藥師、藥商、助產士、心理師、宗教師、律師、辯護人、公證人、會計師或其業務上佐理人。好啦！在刑法第三百十六條，這些人社會就高度說他們有職業信賴，結果在刑訴第一百八十二條，剛剛前面講的十種人當中，只有八種「得拒絕證言」，漏了藥商和心理師。今天要補一個心理師進來，我完全同意，那你同不同意？在刑法當中對他的看重和刑事訴訟法當中的「得拒絕證言」有落差了啊！","還是法務部來回答？一邊是刑法，一邊是刑事訴訟法。"],["吳秘書長三龍：社會一直在進步，如何合乎時宜來修法，我覺得這是必要的啦！"],["江委員永昌：社會一直在進步，會不會司法院和法務部進步得很慢？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們當然會儘量配合時代的腳步。"],["江委員永昌：好，不要講了。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們刑法上的守密義務要保護的法益和刑訴法上的「得拒絕證言」所要保護的法益不一樣，刑訴法是真實發現，所以應守密的人範圍比較大，哪些人在真實發現裡面要退讓是只有刑訴要規範的，所以理論上它有可能一致，但不必然一致。"],["江委員永昌：好、好。"],["黃次長謀信：就是在真實發現更必要的時候，刑訴的領域裡面，為了真實發現，它要大於守密的義務，這個時候把一小部分人規範成「得拒絕證言」。"],["江委員永昌：我懂、我懂。保障專業協助的那個當事人對不對？他要維護其隱私、資訊自主權，還有一個就是保障這個業務者要有信賴關係嘛！考量那個追訴犯罪的公益之間的為難，還要考量公眾利益，這些職業都必須有社會功能繼續下去，不管這幾種，今天把心理師加進來的話，就等於再加一個藥商就一致了啦！但問題解決了嗎？還沒有！","我告訴你，在這當中沒有護理人員耶！醫師是有喔！在刑法第案三百十六條和刑訴第一百八十二條當中，醫師是有喔！那我問你：護理人員為什麼沒有？護理人員的四大業務包括健康問題之護理評估、預防保健之護理措施、護理指導及諮詢，還有一個叫做醫囑、醫療輔助行為，還有醫療輔助行為，醫師有，護理人員不用嗎？醫師有，護理人員不用嗎？法務部剛剛不敢講的，要回復哪一種法益，對不對？追求真實的公益或者是信賴，又或者是社會功能等等。醫師有了，護理人員也有醫囑之行為，他要處理，護理人員要不要進來？有沒有思考過？我繼續講，一旦護理人員進來，你要知道職能治療師也有醫囑，還有很多物理治療師也有醫囑，呼吸治療師也有醫囑，醫檢師也有醫囑，這些要不要進來？但我告訴你，你如果覺得護理人員也該進來，我剛剛講的那些人員，你也考慮要一併進來的時候，我再告訴你，範圍更大了，因為不止醫師法、藥師法、護理人員法、律師法、公證法、會計師法、心理師法，有說你如果洩密，我就直接在你的法律處罰你的，還包括社會工作師法、醫師法、營養師法、驗光人員法、記帳士法、不動產經紀管理條例、自殺防治法、犯罪被害人權益保障法等等，這些當中都有寫，只要你是他的證人，這裡面就寫你不可以洩密，但那個無故當然可以用刑事訴訟去排除，所以你要拉到大跟小。這當中一個事情來了，你再想當我們在刑法當中有去處罰宗教師，在刑訴的拒絕證言當中，也有包括宗教師。我問你，觀護志工、教誨志工呢？他們跟那個人的接觸甚至有時候還超越宗教師，你知道嗎？要不要給他「得拒絕證言」，也許你們沒辦法給我答案，但我整理完了、有盤點了，現在就跟你們分享，看怎麼思考？","剛剛提到法律都有規定職業洩不洩密、信賴保護、職業倫理，外面再一層更大的、外國立法例有的。我現在再放到外國立法例有的，第一個、德國專業代理人、稅務代理人及日本的代書都有納入，我再加上這一條，外國也有。再加上，你知道嗎？在臺灣過去一直被討論的叫做記者，記者符合公共利益而揭弊，他也要保護他的訊息來源等等，要不要給記者「得拒絕證言」？"],["吳秘書長三龍：社會在進化，如何合乎時宜修法還是很重要。"],["江委員永昌：討論非常久。我如果翻過去在立法或者過去在學界、法界，幾年以前曾經討論的總覽表，你會知道社會在進步，當然在進步！但你們如果原地踏步，相對的，你們是退步。還不只這樣，再給你講一個，現在為了不管是當事人隱私資訊，還是從事這個職業或者公務員應守之秘密，基於職業倫理、信賴保護，還包括親屬。但是有一個部分是什麼樣，你知道嗎？這一個本來叫做證人，他可以有「得拒絕證言權」，「除經本人不允許……」，問題來了，他拒絕證言，你可不可以跟他強制搜索、扣押？如果你去給他強制搜索、扣押，你就是架空了「得拒絕證言」的權利。坦白講，依據刑事訴訟法第一百三十四條，公務員持有的、職務上應守秘密者，在未得所屬監督機關允許的時候不得扣押，這保障了！還有總統的「得拒絕證言權」，總統也可以，他有拒絕提交證物的權利，這是釋字第627號。總統也可以，不可扣押他的東西。但是我剛講的「得拒絕證言權」又不是只有這幾類，其他幾類呢？","日本對於業務上委託保管持有他人秘密之物品者，就是剛剛我們點的那些師「得拒絕扣押」，因為他就怕規定「得拒絕證言」，結果卻被強制扣押、搜索，那它就被架空了，以後法檢察官、法官說沒關係，先告知可以拒絕。我還沒有討論到有義務告知得拒絕，還是未依義務告知那一塊，現在問題是這一塊說：好啊！你拒絕，我就明天去搜索你、扣押證物，怎麼辦？德國不只有職業上的拒絕證言權，連職業上的助手，對於被告所信託之報告跟涉及拒絕證言權的記載是不能扣押的。我也知道，如果這個要立法進入體制，從剛剛提及人的範圍到現在事物，到底要長到多大才是正確或進步，又是符合價值，還是法制可以啟動？我也知道很困難，但是盤點下來就一堆問題還不小，而這麼多年來的討論都沒有看到。甚至110年4月14號揭弊者保護法公聽會，就已經有一堆律師陳情了。在刑法當中，有處罰律師的規定；在刑事訴訟法當中，律師有「得拒絕證言」的權利。雖然有這樣的配套，你可不可以搜索律師事務所？"],["黃次長謀信：事實上，有關律師的搜索，剛剛委員提到的拒絕證言權、上位概念的不自證己罪，事實上大法官在今（112）年憲判字第9號已經就這個表示過意見了，就被告或者潛在性被告有可能會違及他的不自證己罪或拒絕證言，在某一個範圍內限縮或扣押。剛才委員提了大法官已經就這部分有表示過意見了，的確如同委員講的，他在某一個範圍內有可能會損害到不自證己罪或更上位概念的疑慮。"],["江委員永昌：比方司法院版怎麼樣寫出來？還是立法院要怎麼提？大家要有一個決定，否則國家法律全靠大法官釋憲，你懂我意思？如果修法可以處理爭議的事情，讓法律明定就不必都靠釋憲。不然很簡單，從今之後立法工作就不要再做了，司法院也都不用檢討！你們每次都說優先法案、什麼法案，對不對？不用！都等大法官，社會出問題了，對法律有疑義了，全由大法官解釋，不是這樣嘛！我剛剛提的不都是國外人家怎麼立法，也許不符合臺灣國情或不符合國民的法律感情，但是我們總可以找到我們要的。","剛剛從人的範圍、物證的範圍，回過頭來看，今天如果要修法真的要好好討論。我們知道基於發現真實的公義性有誠實作證的義務，但是讓那些人有「得拒絕證言權」，所以有另外一個配套，叫做當你前面如果沒有拒絕證言的時候，後面就不得拒絕，對吧？我講這個概念，秘書長應該很清楚吧？要不要講講看，這是什麼概念？你是一個證人，你前面沒有拒絕，檢察官偵查的時候，你就陳述，審判當中有講的，你就講了，後面你就不得再行使拒絕證言權。這個觀念你要不要講講看？這是什麼？"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員提示的這些都很重要，有些涉及到以後如何修法，我們當然會合乎時宜、積極來修法。"],["江委員永昌：不，現在就碰到了，還要等到以後修法？"],["吳秘書長三龍：有一些就是現有法律如何解讀，可能實務上會有一定的作法，會按照法律規定的精神來執行。"],["江委員永昌：現在各界的見解，以及最高法院跟地方法院很多判決的案子當中，就是矛盾交錯、不知所從，你知道嗎？因為我跟你講，刑事訴訟法第一百八十一條之一規定，反詰問的時候，就主詰問所做的陳述，你不可以再拒絕，他就怕什麼？他就怕你前面講了，萬一經過證據能力而是證據，後面你又拒絕證言，那我如何在交叉當中審視你當時的證言？所以有這個功能，這也必要，但問題來了，現在你們把它擴張到偵查時，對檢察官所做的陳述也放大，就是前面對檢察官所為之陳述的那個部分，如果你沒有拒絕說不作證，後面也跟著不行。這裡就產生兩大問題，一個問題是奇怪了！很多學界講說刑事訴訟法第一百八十一條之一並沒有規定前面檢察官問的時候，你就已經有這樣的問題，你就要知道趕快先說沒有辦法作證，先拒絕證言，但法律的條文沒有啊！我們直接用類推的會不會違法？直接用類推的會不會違法？但是如果你不讓他類推的話，你前面做的這個如果拿來作為證據，到最後反詰問的時候，他又拒絕證言，你又不能夠上來，哇！那你就不能夠交叉辯證啦！這個問題這麼久了，這不是什麼社會進步不進步，而是存在你們司法體系當中這麼久、這麼久的一個問題，沒有處理啊！這裡面還包括很細的部分，從第一百七十九條、第一百八十條、第一百八十一條到第一百八十二條，這裡面都有欸，有義務告知你得拒絕證言而未義務告知，後面的這個到底能不能用？有沒有證據能力、證據力？到時候還有沒有享有得拒絕證言權？還有包括我不用跟你說你有拒絕證言權的權利，但到時候法院上用不用？然後你還享不享有得拒絕證言權？包括偵查中的未拒絕、審判中的未拒絕，沒有拒絕喔！到底形不形成？後面排山倒海是一堆喔！我問了非常多，但坦白講，能問這麼多，表示問題一籮筐，像海洋一樣，又遼闊又深的通通都在這裡面，還有一半還沒問咧！"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員這些問題都很深入啦！"],["江委員永昌：都存在。"],["吳秘書長三龍：而且都很有前瞻性。"],["江委員永昌：都有法理矛盾，都有實際執行衝突。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會積極研議看如何來處理。"],["江委員永昌：只有積極研議，你可以每一屆、每一年、每個會期、每個委員問，都講積極處理啊！其實我問了很多這種司法問題，希望你們還是儘量拿出決心。法務部也答一下，看會不會答的比司法院秘書長多一點？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，因為證人的拒絕證言權，涉及到不自證己罪的很上位概念，理論上，我們整個刑訴要保障得非常周延，的確，有些規範如同委員提的，得拒絕證言是不是在每個階段都可以主張，還是只有在偵查、審判時？你講這個失權效的作用或禁反言的效果，的確法律上沒有規範，但實務上產生的這個見解，他可不可採？實務見解也不一定是一成不變的，未來也許最高法院或大法庭有新的見解產生也不一定，但是現在的確會有委員提的，法律沒有明文而產生一些衝突現象。"],["江委員永昌：相同的情況，但在不同的案子當中，哇！這邊可、這邊不可；這邊可、這邊不可；一路從證據能力、證據力，到能不能得拒絕、不得拒絕，全部分歧，就是最高法院、地方法院也見解分歧，實務上作法也不同，學界、法界也提出很久了，但我覺得這些都應該要去處理，你不能說臺灣不明文規定、不立法明確，然後我們就這樣走，其他國家難道也是如此嗎？沒有啊！我看到很多其他國家制定得還蠻仔細的，也許國情不同，但是該怎麼樣參考而進步，時代社會在進步，司法法制也要跟著進步，總是要努力啦！我有這樣的期望。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝江永昌委員。"],["主席（江委員永昌代）：接下來請湯蕙禎召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-36-23","speakers":["湯蕙禎","陳椒華","陳靜敏","曾銘宗","王鴻薇","賴香伶","江永昌","吳怡玎","林淑芬","劉建國","謝衣鳯","林思銘","鄭運鵬","吳琪銘"],"page_start":303,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員陳\n明文等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員林楚茵等20 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條\n文修正草案」案、 ( 五)委員蔡易餘等20 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條\n之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七) 委員游毓蘭等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正\n草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員周春米等27 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員何志偉\n等29 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 委員陳椒華等27 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員林靜儀等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟\n法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員莊競程等26 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八\n十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員陳靜敏等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正\n草案」案、( 八) 委員劉建國等16 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案；三、\n審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1129301_00002"}}},{"id":"148785","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148785","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d423484b666ccc4815d1c9f30f66da3334563ec986728e607a03225655b785b1414eda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭麗文","委員發言時間":"10:04:15 - 10:19:19","影片長度":"00:15:04","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。\n三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案。\n(第三案如未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答，相關提案請於12月1日中午12時前提出。)\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-10-8-22-9"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":904,"end_time":"2023-11-29T10:19:19+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T10:04:15+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1224,"blocks":[["鄭委員麗文：（10時4分）謝謝主席。請主委。"],["主席：有請主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：鄭委員早。"],["鄭委員麗文：主委，第一個，我們關心的是日本已經將相關放射性物質排入太平洋，我們有放射性物質海域擴散海洋資訊平臺，這是國人瞭解核廢水非常重要的資訊來源。但是你們這個網站、這個資訊平臺的網頁其實相當不好用。這個資訊平臺的執行經費一開始編了609萬9,000元，112年度優化、正式啟用的經費也編了513萬元，總共1,122萬9,000元。但如果想瞭解核廢水而點進去後，還要跳到你們官網；如果要瞭解相關檢測的品項、數量、輻射含量等等，還要再進一步去下載檔案。簡而言之，這個網頁的設計真的很不好用，所以我希望你們能大幅改善！這東西不應該是有做就好，畢竟現在已經是網路時代，你們也是一個高科技單位，所以要讓關心的民眾可以簡單的一目瞭然，可以透過網頁立即瞭解核廢水的相關資訊。因此，我的第一個要求是，請你們要把網頁做好，不要交差了事，好嗎？","第二個，關於核廢水，大家都知道對漁業影響非常大，臺灣漁民其實是非常擔憂的，所以平臺是不是應協助，並給予漁民即時、完整的資訊？但你們資訊平臺上的燈號也是交差了事，讓我覺得非常的離譜、誇張！第1，沒有當天即時監測的資訊，而是根據監測結果進行預測，且是一週的模擬預測，請問漁民如何由此得知並善用你們的預測系統？然後根據你們的預測系統來決定出海？第2，如何確保臺灣相關的水產品安全呢？你這個東西很明顯是交差了事！請主委看看日本！日本在港口每10分鐘就更新一次最新的監測結果，東京電力則是每天公告有關海水、井水、儲水槽、管線、空氣中所有的輻射監測。有關海水監測部分，我再講一次，日本每10分鐘就更新一次，我們是多久做一次？而且做一次可以頂未來的一個禮拜？這不是交差了事、應付一下而已嗎？你覺得漁民會對我們的監測有信心嗎？感覺上並沒有把這件事情很當一回事，就是有做就好了！這東西太敷衍了吧？主委？"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝……"],["鄭委員麗文：我們做不到嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：做得到，謝謝鄭委員。我澄清一下，委員剛才講的一週擴散模式，是海水、氚廢水的擴散模式，這是simulation模擬的。在漁獲的檢測上，我們放在跨部會的整合平臺裡，裡面有海水、有漁獲、有日本的進口食品，還有海洋生態……"],["鄭委員麗文：海水監測呢？"],["陳主任委員東陽：有……"],["鄭委員麗文：我講的就是海水監測！我們的海水監測呢？我們對海水的相關輻射監測呢？監測在哪裡？所以沒有？你的意思是根本都沒有，是我誤會了？"],["陳主任委員東陽：有、有……"],["鄭委員麗文：你們做的只是預測而已，所以你們的海水監測呢？"],["陳主任委員東陽：有、有……"],["鄭委員麗文：我剛剛不是講了，日本的海水監測基本上是放在港口，且每10鐘更新一次！我不要求你們每10分鐘，起碼你每天更新偵測結果……"],["陳主任委員東陽：是……"],["鄭委員麗文：為什麼要預測一個禮拜？這不是在唬弄大家，不然是什麼？"],["陳主任委員東陽：海水的監測的確是有，但這部分可能是我們的網頁設計不夠……"],["鄭委員麗文：這不是網頁的設計，因為根本沒有資訊來源可以提供啊！你們要監測、要有數據，這樣它才有數字登上去、PO上去，今天問題不可能是你們有沒有PO上去，而是你們根本就沒有做監測，所以是要PO什麼東西給人家看？你們就是打算PO一個禮拜的預測就好了！我們的意思是：你不可以這樣！人家日本是怎麼做的？臺灣做不到嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：有做！我請張組長……"],["鄭委員麗文：有做嗎？有做為什麼不PO出來給大家看？怕被大家看到？"],["陳主任委員東陽：來，解釋一下。"],["張組長淑君：報告委員，日本的10分鐘即時監測是出水口的劑量率監測，他們每天為了能快速知道出水口的資料，所以有一個快速的分析方法每天公告。隨著距離愈來愈遠，因為海水的稀釋愈來愈遠，所以我們大家都是用一個定期、一個頻次的概念，有一些是每個月、有一些是每個季，我們會看它風險污染的情形。我們在分析的時候，在海水的監測數據，現在是每週我們會去做一個定期即時訊息的公布。"],["鄭委員麗文：那可以更密集嗎？"],["張組長淑君：這部分，因為取樣的這一塊，我們必須透過跨部會，包括海巡署、水試所他們都要來配合，這個在取樣上，我們再密集的話，可能要再進一步地去分析……做一個……"],["鄭委員麗文：不只是頻率的問題，我先跳到下面這一頁，我們總共這個……核廢水裡頭所含的放射性物質有9種，為什麼我們只監測7種？為什麼沒有碳-14跟碘-129？"],["張組長淑君：報告委員，我們在分析的時候，我們第一個就是因為銫-137、銫-134是所有事故最嚴重的，而且對身體影響最大的指標，所以我們從福島事故以來，我們就一直在分析這個銫-134、銫-137。"],["鄭委員麗文：那可不可以加進去碳-14跟碘-129？我剛剛講了，因為你不是只有這個，你們總共監測7種嘛！在這9種物質裡頭，對不對？"],["張組長淑君：對。"],["鄭委員麗文：那為什麼漏掉碳-14跟碘-129？要不要加進去？可不可以加進去呢？"],["陳主任委員東陽：鄭委員，跟你說明……"],["鄭委員麗文：因為這兩個一樣也是放射性物質，我們根據很多資料，也都顯示這些都是很主要的，對我們的食品安全，還有譬如說碘-129，它會殘留在人體的骨骼、牙齒、甲狀腺、肌肉當中幾十年，造成更大的輻射劑量，這些都是BBC的報導，為什麼我們漏掉了碳-14跟碘-129？可不可以補進去呢？"],["陳主任委員東陽：了解，委員的問題非常好。我跟委員報告，核廢水經過ALPS系統，它沒有辦法過濾的，主要剩下兩種，一個是氚、一個是碳-14，但是碳-14在排到外面的時候，也就是排到海裡面的時候，它已經低於日本安全標準的十分之一，但是這個氚沒有辦法經過……它是稀釋之後才排到海裡面，所以我們主要的觀點是在看這個氚的含量。委員剛才提到其他幾個放射性的元素，其實我們在境外的海域，金門、馬祖還有黑潮流域的地方，我們都有做一些檢測。"],["鄭委員麗文：那為什麼你們的檢測跟綠色和平的檢測不一樣？綠色和平的檢測說，針對福島核廢水裡頭的放射性物質，他發現除了你剛剛講的氚之外，裡面……碳-14跟碘-129他們都有發現，還有其他的部分。"],["張組長淑君：報告委員，因為綠色和平組織調查報告這個一開始的初始分析是日本的排放……可能含有的所有核種，並沒有考慮到實際殘存過濾以後核種的濃度……"],["鄭委員麗文：所以你們就是假設，它過濾以後這些都已經過濾完成了，不可能殘存。"],["張組長淑君：我們在源頭……"],["鄭委員麗文：所以就不用再去測試，但萬一它沒有過濾乾淨呢？"],["陳主任委員東陽：了解。這個部分，其實我們主要還是……"],["鄭委員麗文：所以日本人說什麼……，他說這個東西很安全，所以你們就覺得這個東西很安全，其他就不用測了。那你這個檢測不就是做給我們安人心而已嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個主要還是以……"],["鄭委員麗文：我們當然就是懷疑說，萬一它沒有過濾乾淨怎麼辦呢？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分，主要有國際原子能總署（IAEA），他有進駐到日本核電廠，有一個獨立第三方的公正單位在做一些檢視，他要……"],["鄭委員麗文：我還有一個問題。請問一下，既然……譬如說我們看日本的報告，日本的海水環境省，他們檢測到7種放射性物質，所以日本就分別在今年的5月、今年的9月都公布說，他們在海水當中，監測到了7種物質，為什麼我們臺灣只公布兩種，而不把你所監測到的都公布出來呢？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我請徐主任，那個……輻射中心主任。"],["鄭委員麗文：你們是已經先射箭才畫靶嗎？"],["徐主任明德：不是，我跟委員報告，因為日本是事故國，他的放射性核種的濃度會比較高，所以它測得到，我們是在離日本有2,000公里的海面上，所以剛剛委員講的這7種，銫-134、銫-137還有106、125、60、90、129，這些我們這邊其實大概量測出來的結果都是小於最低可測值，是測不到的，所以不管我頻率多少，是測不到的。剛剛委員講的是有道理，碳-14跟碘-129其實我們是需要建立這個能力，我也可以老實說，目前我們沒有這個能力，所以我們在建立當中，也請委員多多支持我們的經費，因為我們需要建立這個能力。"],["鄭委員麗文：好，那太好了，如果是這樣子的話，主委，你們應該要積極爭取啊！不應該漏掉這個兩個元素的探測嘛！我們當然支持啊！不然的話，你漏掉這兩個，你這個報告根本就是……我們怎麼能夠安心呢？這個東西很重要啊！你不能跟我講說，日本他們那邊應該沒問題，我們的國際原子能總署有派人在那邊什麼、什麼的，那你就是……不然我們根本就連測都不用測了嘛！如果是這樣，這也太天真了吧！我們當然就是要測到說，今天在我們臺灣環海的這些海域裡頭到底是不是安全的，我們漁民在作業捕撈的海水裡面有沒有受到污染。他們抓回來的魚我們通通都要吃的耶！開什麼玩笑啊！","最後一個問題，就是在我們核安會的輻務小站上面寫的這個東西，我不知道主委你有沒有看，這個東西完全就是在幫日本宣傳嘛！我們有必要這樣嗎？我們的態度是為國人的安全把關，是為我們海域的安全環保把關，而不是在那邊講說，日本做得多好又多好，所以絕對沒有問題。你po這樣的文幫日本背書，你就會讓我們更擔心嘛！原來日本說什麼……就像你們剛剛的態度啊！都覺得日本人已經做得很好了，所以我們在臺灣所有的把關都是形式上的，都是做安心的、做交代的虛晃一招，讓我們這些擔心的人閉嘴的嗎？這態度跟基本立場的出發就太偏移了吧！太歪樓了吧！"],["陳主任委員東陽：那個……"],["鄭委員麗文：我們不應該是去幫日本講話嘛！而是站在我們臺灣國家利益的角度、人民食安的角度、漁民生計的角度做好把關的角色。你可以說，我們做了哪些、哪些，你怎麼會在我們的臉書說日本做了哪些、哪些，所以大家要安心呢？你這是日本人的網站、日本人的臉書，還是臺灣人的臉書啊？莫名其妙！立刻下架、馬上更改，不然你們小編是日本派來的嗎？是日本政府派來的嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝委員的指教，這個部分我們回去馬上檢視，會做一些修正。剛剛委員提到這個網頁設計，核安e點通app相關……因為我自己上網過，我有去做check，我其實可以看到所有的資訊，會後我想我請我們的同仁，即便用手機，現在我就可以展示給各位看了。"],["鄭委員麗文：不是，他可以看得到，但是你們的設計……主委……"],["陳主任委員東陽：對，不夠friendly，我……"],["鄭委員麗文：你是主委啊！你是博士耶！你是……你要一般的漁民怎麼去看，你懂我的意思嗎？他當然看得到，我不是說他看不到，而是你們的設計實在是很不方便，對一般的使用者來講，這真的很困難，他還要去下載檔案，他不是學者耶，主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：很好的建議、非常好的建議，我完全同意，我會來改進。"],["鄭委員麗文：好，謝謝。"],["主席：再麻煩相關報告，謝謝主委。"],["主席（鄭委員麗文）：好，我們接下來請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-22-9","speakers":["鄭麗文","張廖萬堅","陳秀寳","黃國書","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","陳靜敏","張其祿","范雲","陳椒華","鄭正鈐","萬美玲","劉世芳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查 113 年度\n中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1129302_00001"}}},{"id":"148784","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148784","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d4234852f4e6dba0f1d431f30f66da3334563ec986728e607a03229dbcd45e44a4b4e55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"09:54:52 - 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113 年度\n中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1129302_00001"}}},{"id":"148783","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148783","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d423489209b43f7813c08f500069142ad034a1c986728e607a03228f4d12879dd2c1a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴香伶","委員發言時間":"09:43:15 - 09:56:19","影片長度":"00:13:04","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員陳明文等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員游毓蘭等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員周春米等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員何志偉等29人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳椒華等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林靜儀等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員莊競程等26人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員陳靜敏等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n三、審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-10-8-36-23"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":784,"end_time":"2023-11-29T09:56:19+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T09:43:15+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":370,"blocks":[["賴委員香伶：（9時43分）謝謝主席。請教司法院秘書長，我這邊有一個資料，我想你也瞭解，日前司法院自己也有發新聞稿釐清，就是8月份的時候司法院好像有資料外洩的案件，司法院就成立調查的專案小組，然後依資通安全事件通報跟應變辦法進行通報，當時新聞稿裡面寫的很明確，信誓旦旦認為此事未涉及機敏部分，然後主機也沒有提供民眾註冊帳號，也沒有儲存判決書等等。這是11月13號資訊處發布的一個新聞，後來時隔大概二個禮拜，司法院自己又發了一個澄清的新聞，講到說在檢視了之前8月份外洩的資料，就發現有部分案件的主文公告含有裁判書的理由內容，然後也有部分主文公告含有個資，發現有923件個資外洩。我想請教，秘書長您是幾月來的？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我是6月。"],["賴委員香伶：6月，所以8月這個事情發生的時候，您應該也瞭解，司法院的資訊處大概也做了緊急的處理，可是當時的新聞稿隔了一個多禮拜就發現，並不是你們自己講的沒有外洩個資、沒有涉及到裁判書等等，怎麼會有這個落差，您調查了沒有？"],["吳秘書長三龍：在事件發生之後，我們目前當然最重要的就是按照個人資料保護法第十二條還有施行細則第二十二條……"],["賴委員香伶：我是問你們怎麼會有這個落差？一開始就信誓旦旦地說沒有任何機敏部分外洩，個資好像也沒有外洩，也沒有裁判書；然後再次查證之後發現，有裁判書理由內容公開了，也有900多件個資外洩，這個落差是怎麼查出來的？今天資訊處副處長有來，就是說你們內部自己是怎麼樣去釐清，一開始說沒有，後來又查到有，那現在在通報的部分，包括一開始要通報給各個主管機關的部分，現在是補通報還是怎麼樣？"],["吳秘書長三龍：通報都有通報，因為後來……"],["賴委員香伶：可是之前的通報跟後來查到的內容不同，你們如何處理？這有落差的。"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是後來這個也都會通報。"],["賴委員香伶：後來也通報？"],["吳秘書長三龍：對，因為我們現在整個個資這方面是非常重要，所以有各種即時的狀況都要通報。"],["賴委員香伶：那你們現在採取的作法是什麼？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為按照個資法第十二條還有細則第二十二條，最重要的就是保護這些個資的所有人，避免被害……"],["賴委員香伶：對，現在已經發生了，所以你們現在是採取變更密碼、設定主機防火牆規則，還是管理的單位怎麼樣做改善措施，這部分到底現在進行到哪裡？因為這個事情看起來8月發生，然後11月份你們自己新聞稿披露，上個禮拜應該是林淑芬委員在委員會也問過你們，你們說一個禮拜之內要給他答復，現在到底你們調查的結果跟你們透過新聞稿說你們判決書有流出，你們通報的這些單位要求你們做改變的內容，所以現在這個調查的報告資料有送到我們法制委員會來了嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：會送過來。"],["賴委員香伶：什麼時候要送？"],["吳秘書長三龍：釐清之後會儘快送過來。"],["賴委員香伶：多久？因為會期要結束了。"],["吳秘書長三龍：就資訊處這邊會儘速……"],["賴委員香伶：本週可以送來嗎？因為看起來你們13號發新聞稿，然後21號又發新聞稿，然後23號是林淑芬委員質詢，今天司法院也來報告，也做了很多相關善後的處理，所以是不是可以真的在本週期間內送到司法法制委員會？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是，我們會提出書面的報告。"],["賴委員香伶：提出書面我知道，什麼時候要提，我們到現在沒看到。"],["吳秘書長三龍：本週應該沒問題。"],["賴委員香伶：副處長在不在？"],["吳秘書長三龍：副處長在。"],["賴委員香伶：林副處長，你們的作法是怎麼樣？你們什麼時候可以送來？因為你們已經答應林淑芬委員，我們今天再質詢，看起來秘書長並沒有得到你更多的資訊。"],["吳秘書長三龍：就本週會提出書面報告。"],["賴委員香伶：本週提到司法法制委員會來？"],["吳秘書長三龍：對，會提出。"],["賴委員香伶：OK，好，那希望不要再發生了，因為很多在網路上大家可以看到，人家提供出來的資料確實包括相關內文，這裡當然是用塗黑的方式，但基本上就是有外洩，這是大家對於個資外洩部分比較在意的地方，希望司法院不要發生這種事情。","第二個我們也來就教一下秘書長，112年第8次人事審議委員會有一個決議，就是人評會對某一位法官李法官做了口頭警告處分，原因是有一個案件，他在訴訟程序裡面有主動促使兩造，希望他們合意停止訴訟程序，但是他沒有向當事人解釋，合意停止訴訟之後，有關於法律關係的部分會要變更等等，所以他竟然有一個指示很有趣，他說：當事人，我們的書記官會打電話聯繫你，告訴你後續要怎麼做。然後他並沒有批示審理單等等的方式，因此人評會就做了一個警告處分。您覺得這個法官，在目前這個狀況裡面，此案當然是因為人民對於這個法官提出不適任的申訴，然後人評會審理結果是警告處分而已，你覺得這個警告處分，對於當事人權益來講是合宜的嗎？我講的當事人是訴訟當事人，不是這位法官。"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為當時法官評鑑委員是建議送人審會來評議……"],["賴委員香伶：對。"],["吳秘書長三龍：那人審會有一定的法定組織……"],["賴委員香伶：對。"],["吳秘書長三龍：那是經過討論……"],["賴委員香伶：所以你覺得這是適合的處分？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這是人審會的一個決議啦……"],["賴委員香伶：你對於不適任法官有沒有具體、客觀的標準，比如說這個在人審會裡面有記過警告，然後3、4年前他有一個案件也被你們人評會有做過對他的糾正等等的，他也是常常被人家申訴的對象，所以您覺得第一個，不適任法官的審理標準有沒有應該適時再檢討的部分？第二個，人評會做完警告處分，可是對於當事人的權益受損，在司法院裡面有任何可以協助的方式嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：在一般的法官的守則，他有法官倫理規範……"],["賴委員香伶：法官倫理規範，對。"],["吳秘書長三龍：會就法官的行為，哪些適合、不適合會加以一定規範。"],["賴委員香伶：可是像這個明顯是SOP本身就有疏漏，然後他自己離開審庭之後又沒有交接，所以當事人的權益大大地受損，你們可能是基於這樣才給他口頭告誡，還沒有任何的記過懲處，所以你覺得這個是不是應該再進行了解？雖然你們人審會是合意制的，但是只有給他口頭告誡，而且這個當事人的權益，到現在已經訴訟的權益都過了，之後要再重審還要再花律師費、還要花裁判費各種費用，你覺得當事人的權益要怎麼補救？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然在個案方面如何善後，個案應該會……"],["賴委員香伶：什麼單位、什麼機制可以協助？如果你們的人審會只管法官的部分，他造成的傷害、損失，這個法官當事人不用賠嗎？不用協助嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為個案實際上如何處理，或者是當事人有什麼主張，這個是……"],["賴委員香伶：你會去瞭解嗎？我希望秘書長您去瞭解，好不好？因為如果這個當事法官他自己做的事情發生了一些損害，他都沒有責任，他只有受個口頭告誡，然後繼續當法官，你看到人家看他在庭上講話，人家還沒有開始講，他就講說：我們講法律，你們不懂的話，嘴巴閉起來。所以很多人對於法官有時候真的是敢怒不敢言，因為得罪法官就好像得罪了包青天，馬上判下來我就沒有回頭路、沒有機會了。但如果是不適任的法官，他在口頭告誡之外沒有付出其他代價，當事人的權益就沒有人去協助，所以我是希望司法的正義和客觀性，秘書長還是要費心協助，看看能不能有什麼機制來處理，好不好？","最後有一個小的案件，就是有關國民法官，許宗力院長最近在一個律師節的會議上講了一句話，引起律師界（辯方）的大反彈，可見新制度上路之後還有很多力有未逮的地方，必須重新盤點，儘速補實。他是說，在國民法官案件當中，辯方的表現是一盤散沙。請問您認同嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那……"],["賴委員香伶：如果您是院長，您會講這種話嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：辯護人有他的一定功能……"],["賴委員香伶：一定功能？我知道，對。"],["吳秘書長三龍：有一定功能，然後在法庭……"],["賴委員香伶：那麼你覺得院長不知道國民法官法剛上路，相關的配套和做法還有很多要去努力的，他講這種話不是打擊很多辯方、熱血律師的熱情嗎？你會不會跟他說「你失言了」？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們當然會鼓勵辯護人……"],["賴委員香伶：我說，你會不會跟院長講「你失言了」？因為我看報端對他的說法其實心裡不舒服，既然大家都是法律人，在做法的精進上面和關係上面，當然不是以個案來判斷大家是不是願意一起努力，可是這幾件國民法官的案件判下來，包括民間團體和律師界其實都有很大的意見。整個國民法官法有兩個最大的挑戰，一個是現在沒有太多律師願意接這麼辛苦的法律案件，法扶這些大家支持的熱血律師也覺得資源上、條件上不具足，所以可能也是很勉強地去接，這些都對國民法官法上路造成一些不足，那要怎麼樣努力改善？秘書長，針對這個部分，你們是不是會對特別是法扶律師提供一些相對的費用、支持的資源？可不可以要求相關單位來補足甚至編列相關的預算？這部分你可不可以承諾研議看看？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會提出書面報告。"],["賴委員香伶：提出書面可以，但是你們要不要研議相關的資源提供？"],["吳秘書長三龍：已經都有……"],["賴委員香伶：有了嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這段時間有經過相當研議了，而且也有……"],["賴委員香伶：像什麼是現在已經準備要提升的資源？"],["吳秘書長三龍：比如說法扶的酬金我們會儘量……"],["賴委員香伶：法扶的酬金？"],["吳秘書長三龍：把天花板提高。"],["賴委員香伶：是通案式，還是針對接國民法官案件的律師，他們會有不同的酬金？這可不可以分類出來？因為這種案件不多，但是願意接的話，它的做法和程序都改得那麼嚴格，對他來講是很大的挑戰。"],["吳秘書長三龍：對。"],["賴委員香伶：有沒有可能分類？就是接國民法官案件這種訴訟的律師酬金可以提高。"],["吳秘書長三龍：這段時間就這個問題我們都有……"],["賴委員香伶：需要我們在委員會幫你做一個決議，請你們來努力看看嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：假如委員有需要，我們會請刑事廳提出這個書面報告。"],["賴委員香伶：好。"],["吳秘書長三龍：就這一段時間我們對國民法官這一部分……"],["賴委員香伶：我的建議就是，如果有分類的話，接國民法官案件的法扶律師酬金，最起碼是不是可以跟其他一般的法服案件有分級、分類的制度？這個我再跟主席研究，也許我們會用司法及法制委員會的決議，給你們一個依據來努力，好不好？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會請刑事廳和司法行政廳提出相關的書面報告。"],["賴委員香伶：你們也要努力啦，但是我想我們也在這邊協助，讓新制度上路不至於到最後都是負評，甚至院長講這種話，我覺得你要跟院長講他失言了，好不好？改天還是要跟大家盤點清楚之後一起來改善，好不好？"],["吳秘書長三龍：好。"],["賴委員香伶：好，謝謝。"],["吳秘書長三龍：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員香伶：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝賴香伶委員。","下一位請江永昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-36-23","speakers":["湯蕙禎","陳椒華","陳靜敏","曾銘宗","王鴻薇","賴香伶","江永昌","吳怡玎","林淑芬","劉建國","謝衣鳯","林思銘","鄭運鵬","吳琪銘"],"page_start":303,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員陳\n明文等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員林楚茵等20 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條\n文修正草案」案、 ( 五)委員蔡易餘等20 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條\n之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七) 委員游毓蘭等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正\n草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員周春米等27 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員何志偉\n等29 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 委員陳椒華等27 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員林靜儀等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟\n法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員莊競程等26 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八\n十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員陳靜敏等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正\n草案」案、( 八) 委員劉建國等16 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案；三、\n審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1129301_00002"}}},{"id":"148782","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148782","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d423485b3561780a5956baf30f66da3334563ec986728e607a03226c7d451d8d01ad695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國書","委員發言時間":"09:45:16 - 09:54:46","影片長度":"00:09:30","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。\n三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案。\n(第三案如未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答，相關提案請於12月1日中午12時前提出。)\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-10-8-22-9"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":570,"end_time":"2023-11-29T09:54:46+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T09:45:16+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1176,"blocks":[["黃委員國書：（9時45分）謝謝主席，請陳主委。"],["主席：好，我們請主委。"],["黃委員國書：主委好。"],["陳主任委員東陽：黃委員早。"],["黃委員國書：從福島震災之後，我們為了因應一些核廢水的問題，我們當時的原能會即現在的核安會，當時在北部跟南部，北部是國立陽明交通大學有建置北部輻射災害備援實驗室，南部是委託屏東科大，這2個實驗室這幾年來的成效……因為我們今天要審預算，所以我覺得我們需要來檢視一下，你們有沒有投入一些經費？有！當時建置的經費北部是1,687萬，南部是1,330萬，當時估算最大的檢驗量，也就是說，我們預期它的檢驗量是3,800件，可是這幾年來……去年還好一點，可是到今年北部0件、南部只有1件，這個概念是什麼？幾乎停擺了。","相較於科技部的國原院，他們近3年的檢測件數5萬8,934件，輻射偵測中心近3年檢驗數也有5,314件，有非常大且明顯的落差。我們推動的這一個北部實驗室跟南部實驗室是為了要因應輻射災害的檢驗，然後我們也給了經費，也給了當時預估可以來協助臺灣針對輻射災害的檢驗，但是到目前為止，幾乎已經快變成蚊子館了，快變成蚊子館的同時，我們也看不出來核安會要怎麼樣去精進，可是我們現在看到預算又送來了，明年要增加預算，總經費分別是460萬跟450萬，這一個部分是不是可以請主委說明一下，如果你們沒有提出一些比較精進的作為，就算我們明年度預算給你了，這些預算還是會被浪費掉，它可能還是一個蚊子館，這非常可惜！請說明一下。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝黃委員的指教。當初我們設立備援實驗室，其實原來的初衷並不是for商業目的、不是for量能，但是這幾年我們這個量能其實是存在的，有一些資料可能沒有完整的顯示，我請廖組長說明，他這邊有更詳細的數字來補充說明，當然黃委員講的一些意見我們會列入考慮，看未來怎麼樣來精進、來promote這2個備援實驗室的相關量能，請廖組長說明。"],["廖組長家群：是，跟委員報告……"],["黃委員國書：現在都12月了，到目前為止，幾乎都沒有……幾乎停擺了嘛！"],["廖組長家群：那個是當時的調查，那是指對外服務，但是事實上實驗室在執行的，以北部為例，它會有例行的環測，事實上通常至少有40件，南部例如恆春有農作物，112年就有53件，另外它會執行相關環測的比較試驗，例如今年目前是84件，例如牡丹水庫，他們那邊覺得民眾有需求，所以他們那邊有做水庫，目前做了大概100件的樣品，只是這些是屬於我們要求跟配合它、去輔導它做的樣品，只是不收費作為它實驗室……所以實驗室都是正常運作中，這部分跟委員特別說明，謝謝。"],["黃委員國書：好，感謝你提出說明，但是我們政府花的錢跟當時預期的目標還有很大的落差，當時希望最大的檢驗量可以做到3,800件，就剛剛核安會的說明其實也有很大的落差，跟原來預期差太多了！明年又要投入經費，這個部分可能要請你們提出一個完整的報告，當然今天是詢答啦！到時候審預算的時候，我還是希望你們可以提出更完整的說明，好不好？"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員國書：再來，前幾天我看到有總統候選人在跟工商業、企業界座談的時候，提及臺灣的能源是一個很大的問題，但是他提到希望2035年核電的占比要過半，核四要重啟，那核四重啟的可能性是什麼？如果在安全無虞的狀況下，核四就可以重啟，當然我們可以來檢視這個議題，但是有沒有可能性？它會不會只是一個政治上的口號？但事實上，它並沒有實現的可能，我覺得你們核安會應該要把整個核四可不可能重啟，就核能安全把關者的角度來說明這個事情，其實台電在2021年時有提出說明，因為這個議題已經討論好多年了，當時就提到原廠人力解散、系統汰舊更新設備難以取得、耐震程度需要提升，以及原能會試運轉報告中提到還有32項待完成，所以這4大因素是台電難以掌握的，這難以掌握的因素就不知道要幾年了，但技術面要完成，就台電可以掌握的技術也要7年，所以當時是說N＋7年才有可能重啟核四，這是台電的說法，但當時核安會的意見還沒有進來。","最近又有提到要重啟核四，之前核四的廠長說投入300億，3、4年就可以重啟了，可以這樣嗎？那我想要請問一下主委，可不可以跟我們講一下，以目前的狀況，核四還沒有完工，它的建照已經失效了，所以一定要再重新申請建照，否則不可以繼續興建作業，除非你有新的建照。再來，核四的備品不足，它所有的一些儀控系統，都已經超過使用年限，如果要重啟，還需要一些耐震的評估，這個期程也不知道如何掌握，還有核四的設計團隊都已經解散了，那怎麼再把他找回來？還有復工的談判等等這些問題太多、太複雜了！我想問一下，以核安會作為一個核安的守護者、把關者，重啟核四的程序是什麼？那核安會你們要評估哪一些重點？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，謝謝委員。核四在2020年12月建照已經屆滿，所以現在假設要再重啟，當然除了社會共識之外，就必須要再重新申請建照。第二個、能源政策是國家的政策……"],["黃委員國書：當然。"],["陳主任委員東陽：這其實並不是核安會的業務範圍。第三個、核安會其實是以安全把關為最基本的要求，那麼誠如委員剛才所提的，我們有很多的事項需要檢視，要重啟要安全評估、老化評估、更換設備、更換零組件，還要跟原廠商做協調來找新的廠商，此外還有預算等等，有非常多的因素。N＋7是前前主委他們提的，委員剛才也有提到一些說明，都是包含在剛才的這些時程裡面，其實具有不確定性。"],["黃委員國書：那我想問一下，那3到4年內有可能啟用嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我請高組長來答復您。"],["黃委員國書：高組長來，有可能嗎？"],["高組長斌：跟委員報告，確實如同剛才委員所說，事實上核四要重啟，必須面臨很多事項要處理，包括設備，甚至地質強化調查這部分等，如果以現在來看，3到4年確實有難度。"],["黃委員國書：當然，每一次總統大選重啟核四都會變成是一個選戰的議題啦！但是不管怎麼樣，我們要關切的是，如果要重啟的話，它必須經過什麼樣的程序？因為我們核安會的主責範圍，就是要讓所有的核電都是安全無虞的，這個是我們的職責，即便要重啟，也必須要進行這些必要審核的程序，那核安會當然要把關！如果以你們把關者的角度，3到4年當然是有難度的嘛！其實幾乎是不可能，好，以上謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請林宜瑾委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-22-9","speakers":["鄭麗文","張廖萬堅","陳秀寳","黃國書","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","陳靜敏","張其祿","范雲","陳椒華","鄭正鈐","萬美玲","劉世芳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查 113 年度\n中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1129302_00001"}}},{"id":"148781","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148781","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d423481de9d944b965233336d81ac9a092bbedc986728e607a03228a4d4e9809745efa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳歐珀","委員發言時間":"09:40:03 - 09:52:18","影片長度":"00:12:15","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算。\n三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。\n四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。\n五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部中央氣象署單位預算。\n（二、工程會預算案與一、業務報告合併詢答後進行處理，四及五已詢答完畢，本日進行處理）\n（工程會預算提案於112年11月27日中午12時截止收件）\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-10-8-23-10"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":735,"end_time":"2023-11-29T09:52:18+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T09:40:03+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1158,"blocks":[["陳委員歐珀：（9時40分）謝謝主席，有請吳主委。"],["主席：好，主委請。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員好。"],["陳委員歐珀：謝謝主委。今天是我對你最後一次的質詢，倍感珍惜；世事難料，所謂諸行無常、諸法無我，想不到我比你早畢業。我們都來自宜蘭，主委2017年就任到現在六年多了，都在工作崗位上戰戰兢兢，事實上我也是一樣，每天一大早從宜蘭趕來臺北的立法院做立法委員分內的事情，所以也一直戰戰兢兢在為臺灣、為宜蘭打拚。","很感人的事情就是我們一起合作做了很多事情，在你上任之初，第一次蘇院長總質詢的時候，我就建議蘇院長應該針對中央跟地方一些重大建設來設置協調會報的機制，當時承蒙蘇院長一口就答應，會後也指定你來負責宜蘭縣的中央地方建設的會報協調。我算了一下，這個會報你總共召開了33次，可以講這幾年來宜蘭縣的重大建設都沒有延宕，都不是因為人的因素延宕。我們也一起合作推動很多事情，這中間包括地方，事實上這個協調會報不只是重大建設，小至連人事的組織調整，或者是農水路都改善了，宜蘭縣政府都提出來，等於相當程度我們中央協助宜蘭縣政府推動很多建設。","因為很多重大建設我都有列管的習慣，主委在總質詢的時候也看到我拿的這個表，這個表是我從去年開始列管的，總共有15項，攸關在執行或未來即將要執行推動的宜蘭縣重大建設，我們在去年就開始列管，我記得今年3月1日交通委員會就安排去看這些重大建設，然後在6月份的時候我又帶領一些宜蘭鄉親到交通部再做一些確認，在今年10月總質詢時我又再次向院長提起，也獲得院長的承諾。因為整個疫情的關係，原物料及人工的問題，我們在經費上做了一些調整，在期程上面也做了一些必然必須要做的因應措施。所以這些事情的一點一滴，我在這裡也沒辦法很詳細地講，總之在宜蘭方面我很感謝主委的大力推動，讓我很感動，如果宜蘭縣沒有公共工程委員會主委這樣的鉅細靡遺，而且非常有效率的督導推動，我相信這些工作沒有辦法那麼順利，我們一起能夠在這裡合作6年，我覺得與有榮焉，也藉這機會代表宜蘭縣鄉親感謝你。","今年4月的時候，我在這裡有質詢主委有關於清水大閘門跟陽大附醫二期工程，一再流標讓我們很擔心，我們經過一再的努力，這兩項重大建設終於在今年9月都順利決標、發包出去了，我在這裡也特別表示感謝，所以這個等於是階段性的動工完成，這是我的一個目標。我這裡提到5年7,000億，我這裡列管了，這7,000億為什麼5年是從今年開始算到未來4年？大概這7,000億會發包會動工的案子，這個不是我的承諾，是政府對人民的承諾，我是身為民意代表要求來執行，所以謝謝主委，希望主委以後繼續來督導推動。","我從很多書面上的資料看起來，因為疫情、物價波動及人力短缺，讓很多工程標不出去，我在這裡也希望工程會能夠密切掌握原物料的價格，督辦、督導一些主辦單位能夠更審慎的訂定招標契約，我想這個很重要，就是說不但要能夠適時的調控物價、掌握物價的變動，而且要能夠覈實來編列預算，否則一再的追加預算或者是變更計畫，那個行政程序是比重新做一次還來得麻煩，我們陽大附醫12年來終於完成了，就是因為當時沒有處理好，延宕了12年，這個是滿令人遺憾的事情！所以很多事情我們既然是政府就要未雨綢繆，為人民之先，我在這裡提醒就好了，因為時間的關係，很多順利決標的案子，經費都比原來的多很多，二次以上流標的案件也比重新標出去的多，這個要改善。我看了一下，110年度二次流標占五分之一，到111年我們二次流標以上占三分之一，110年是五分之一，111年是占三分之一，我這裡就有表，7,700到5,100，占三分之一，110年度是占五分之一，所以這個就是不斷流標，所以要覈實來編列預算，要掌握整個物價的調整。","第二點是我們公共工程採購案招標的次數，你看一下，111年度流廢標占多少？流廢標10%以上，一直增加，流廢標的案子很多。再過來就是有關於第三次以上決標案的比例也逐年增加，主委一再宣示說疫情之後比疫情時期好很多，事實上我們在今年8月份也有針對營建外勞做一些開放，可是請主委看一下第三次以上招標決標的比率，111年是26，到今年，也就是112年，今年還是有23啊，這個23比疫情之前還高，表示我們現在這個機制還是可以有空間再做調整，可以掌握的更好，這個是我提醒你要去督促的，就是怎麼樣覈實來編列預算，不要編的很保守，後來不得不追加，那個行政程序更麻煩，而且對人民是沒辦法交代的，因為你沒辦法如期如質來完工嘛！","最後一點，我希望預算追加不要變成常態，物價慢慢趨於穩定，我們應該把它掌控好，公務人員很忙，不要讓大家一直在辦預算追加案。","我再提醒一下，我們的第二行政中心一再延宕，現在縣府跟廠商互相指摘，宜蘭縣第二行政中心發生這種情況不但影響整個縣政府執行公權力的威信，甚至廠商公然指摘，又要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草，因為縣政府未依合約來撥款2.5億元，像這樣的情形，我覺得工程會應該去了解一下，看怎麼樣來輔導。還有宜蘭現在大力推動五漁村的計畫，但也是延宕了，現在看起來會延宕2年，這個又是失信於民的一個情況。","我今天一方面是感謝啦，一方面還是要勉勵主委，主委已經盡力了，但是相關單位沒有跟著帶動起來，我想公共工程委員會其實上行下效，主委做到了，但底下能不能做到要去瞭解，所有事情我們大概就是以這個標準來自我要求，也要要求相關的行政部門，在公共工程方面能夠確實、覈實來編列預算，避免追加預算造成行政的困擾、耽擱，也要如期如質來完成工程，我想這個是公共工程委員會的責任。最後也給主委講兩句話，這是我最後一次在這裡質詢你了。"],["吳主任委員澤成：這6年以來，真的很感謝陳委員這一路非常的支持跟鼓勵，也非常支持地方的各項建設。在會報方面，我們透過協調也真的解決了一些地方的問題，就是在委員的指教之下，我們一起推動了一些建設，這些建設才讓它啟動，後續還有很多要努力的，我們會繼續來關注。另外對於後面委員所提的應該覈實編列預算避免流廢標，這個我們非常贊同，我們也會朝這個方向來努力，謝謝。"],["陳委員歐珀：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝歐珀委員，歐珀委員一番感言，歐珀委員要離開我們了，我們很難過……"],["陳委員歐珀：畢業啦，不是離開啦！"],["主席：我們掌聲給他送行，好不好？歐珀委員最後一次在交通委員會出現，下次還可以選嘛！還有機會啊！不過你離開我真的很難過，好吧，你就安心的去吧，好不好？"],["陳委員歐珀：畢業啦，不是離開啦！"],["主席：畢業喔，好，修正一下。","下一位請何欣純召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-23-10","speakers":["陳雪生","洪孟楷","李昆澤","陳歐珀","何欣純","陳椒華","陳素月","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳培瑜","邱顯智","張其祿","趙正宇","許智傑","傅崐萁","劉櫂豪"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129303","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129303_00002","1129303_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關\n於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算\n案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部\n中央氣象署單位預算","agenda_id":"1129303_00001"}}},{"id":"148780","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148780","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d4234859a0fb46ebc8501a36d81ac9a092bbedc986728e607a03220241d18e79cd8f1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"09:28:48 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09:39:51","影片長度":"00:11:03","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算。\n三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。\n四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。\n五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部中央氣象署單位預算。\n（二、工程會預算案與一、業務報告合併詢答後進行處理，四及五已詢答完畢，本日進行處理）\n（工程會預算提案於112年11月27日中午12時截止收件）\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-10-8-23-10"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":663,"end_time":"2023-11-29T09:39:51+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T09:28:48+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1130,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時28分）謝謝主席，請吳主委。"],["主席：吳主委請。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員你好。"],["李委員昆澤：主委你好。每一次公共工程委員會的質詢，在委員會一再提醒、督促公共工程委員會針對職災、對於勞工的保護必須要提出更具體有效的作為，這是我對公共工程委員會一個最基本的期待。公共工程委員會除了公共工程的品質以及完成之外，最重要的是在整個過程之中，對於勞工的保護必須要作為國家的典範。","我們來看2022年有關於勞動部職安署所做的一個全國職災統計，全國職災死亡竟然達到320人，是近五年來最高，其中營建業達到156人，占48.7%，當然這是全國所有的職災，公共工程也是裡面的一環。2022年職災造成失能傷害的人次累計達到1萬3,000人，2018到2022年失能的傷害頻率由1.27%提升到1.49%。當然主委也知道，重大職災的類型裡面墜落跟滾落占了48%，我們來看重大職災的原因，就是不安全設備或者是動作造成罹災的人數達到96%。其實公共工程委員會的公共工程絕大部分就是陸海空的交通建設或者是相關的管線建設工作，這樣的工作其實屬於營建類，就是屬於最危險的一個工作類型。我不曉得，主委，我一再督促你們，我們看公共工程違反職安法第六條的，2022年達到1萬7,169件，這是公共工程的，然後2023年1月到10月違反職安法的已經達到1萬2,845件，樣態還是集中於違反第六條，就是沒有符合規定的必要安全設備與措施，或者是違反第二十三條沒有訂定職業安全衛生的管理計畫，也沒有設置安全衛生管理及自動檢查人員。主委，我再提醒你，我們重大職災今年到9月為止，公共工程重大的職災已經有21件，而且造成的罹災人數有22名，到9月為止。主委，我們公共工程委員會嚴重的失職，沒有辦法去保護勞工。說明一下。"],["吳主任委員澤成：我對李委員一直以來都在關心職安的問題，這點我非常的佩服，本會一直以來也都很重視這個問題，比方說像我們相關的金質獎等等，把職災問題列為第一個考量，一旦有發生，我們就不容許它能夠得獎，在平時也一再列為查核跟要求……"],["李委員昆澤：但是沒有具體的成效啊！還是造成重大職災21件，還是造成今年到9月為止已經有22名公共工程的勞工失去性命！不要再講這一些政策或者是口號，具體的成效沒有辦法展現出來啊！"],["吳主任委員澤成：所以這個部分剛剛我講說沒有辦法讓這樣的數字降低下來，我們也覺得很遺憾。"],["李委員昆澤：遺憾是什麼嘛？你們能夠做的改進是什麼？"],["吳主任委員澤成：如果要我們來講的話，就是在執行機關進行工程施工的時候，沒有盡到職安法規定的應該辦理事項……"],["李委員昆澤：我認為還是要嚴懲。"],["吳主任委員澤成：存著僥倖的心態……"],["李委員昆澤：還是要嚴懲。公共工程的職安必須要加強，我們看公共工程最常違反的類型與重大職災主因「不安全動作或設備」其實有高度關聯，公共工程施工查核常見的缺失統計也凸顯工程的現場危險、不合法規的情況屢見不鮮，一直沒有辦法去處理、一直沒有辦法有明顯改善，我認為公共工程委員會是嚴重失職，我再一次這樣嚴肅的強調。"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們會強化這方面的查核。"],["李委員昆澤：我必須具體的要求公共工程委員會應該針對公共工程，必須確保勞工要受完整的職安訓練，這個是最基本的。另外，要要求雇主依法訂立職安的管理計畫、要加強對工安現場的安全性考核。主委說明一下，做得到嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：這個部分我們會把它列為將來在工地查核或進度要求上面第一個首要的工作。"],["李委員昆澤：這個都提出一個具體的計畫，然後具體的時程以及改善的目標，我們能降低多少職災、降低多少這樣的失能，甚至是失去生命？每一個勞工都是每一個家庭重要的一個靠山啊！"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，我會把相關的廠商跟機關列入管控統計所要求的對象。"],["李委員昆澤：現在公部門面對資安這樣的一個威脅，我們看民間，民間當然要各自加強他們的資安防護，政府也應該要提供協助。政府部門其實資安更重要，因為它攸關國家的運作以及人民權利的基本保障，當然主委也知道我國是處於全球資安攻擊的一個重點。另外，我們面對資安的攻擊威脅是非常地大，近3年政府部門的資安事件、遭受攻擊也逐年增加，然後資安的威脅類型當然有掃描刺探類以及入侵攻擊類，這都對國家資安造成嚴重的影響。","當然工程會跟數位部有偕同針對政府資訊服務採購作業指引有確保資通安全的概念，這種政府採購的落實有去做過渡性的一個處理，另外也訂定資訊服務採購契約範本。其實我們來瞭解問題，資安採購面對兩大難題，就是政府的採購類型多元，資通安全的採購涉及高度的專業，對不對？但是採購人員未必具有資通安全的相關背景，導致我們採購的資安服務或產品沒有辦法達到資安需求。資安採購的爭議就是需求者跟資訊設計的專業領域是不同的，提出的需求跟設計方基於專業所設計的軟體最後常常不符合彼此需要，請主委簡單說明一下。"],["吳主任委員澤成：謝謝委員的指教，對於資安採購方面我們做了兩個事情，就像委員這邊資料所呈現的，一個是資安，一個是採購爭議部分。資安部分，我們偕同數位部訂定這一些指引跟相關規定，也已經到各個地方政府、各個機關去做說明，讓他們瞭解怎麼樣防範資訊安全的作業。另外，採購爭議方面就如剛剛委員所提到的，其實採購爭議在資訊方面是在其採購履約過程當中欠缺雙方的勾稽與確認，一下子就跑到結果，結果不符它的需求就產生爭議，我們在採購契約範本裡面也把這個部分做一個處理，強調在進行當中要不斷地……"],["李委員昆澤：主委，因為時間關係，我最後有具體的3樣建議，我們相關的採購措施還是要持續地精進，優化機關與業者的締約，也就是你們要研擬敏捷式開發合約範本，要確保合約在固定時間、固定成本下進行，但是要保有工作範圍的靈活與彈性，為現今軟體開發常見的締約方式。另外，將相關措施提升位階，就是要修正政府採購法，這次工程會公布的作業指引其實是類似行政命令的作法而已，並沒有具備強制力，這個部分還是要修改相關的政府採購法。最後，相關措施也要提升它的位階，就是提升採購人員的資安專業。","我還是要強調，公共工程委員會對於資安相關的採購處理有比過去稍微進步一點點，但是它仍然是一個過渡的措施，還是要有更精進、更完善的一個處理。主委，最後讓你說明一下。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，謝謝委員提出具體的建議跟看法，我們會按照這個方向納入考量，讓它更精進、更安全、更沒有爭議。"],["李委員昆澤：職災以及資通安全都是必須要加強的。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員。","下一位請陳歐珀委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-23-10","speakers":["陳雪生","洪孟楷","李昆澤","陳歐珀","何欣純","陳椒華","陳素月","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳培瑜","邱顯智","張其祿","趙正宇","許智傑","傅崐萁","劉櫂豪"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129303","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129303_00002","1129303_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關\n於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算\n案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部\n中央氣象署單位預算","agenda_id":"1129303_00001"}}},{"id":"148779","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148779","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d4234850dc50bc2c63d37b36d81ac9a092bbedc986728e607a0322ba19aca0d7bc67965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:16:08 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09:28:39","影片長度":"00:12:31","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算。\n三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。\n四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。\n五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部中央氣象署單位預算。\n（二、工程會預算案與一、業務報告合併詢答後進行處理，四及五已詢答完畢，本日進行處理）\n（工程會預算提案於112年11月27日中午12時截止收件）\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-10-8-23-10"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":751,"end_time":"2023-11-29T09:28:39+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T09:16:08+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1070,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時16分）主席謝謝。麻煩請吳澤成主委。"],["主席：吳主委請。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員你好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好。這幾年各地天坑地基掏空事件不斷，尤其9月大直發生了建案開挖而房屋倒塌，讓國人觸目驚心。當時行政院有責成工程會要1個月內來檢討改善，尤其是針對這樣一個坍塌事件能夠來做個釐清。請教現在開會的狀況如何？"],["吳主任委員澤成：謝謝洪委員的指教，對於這個部分經過院長指示，本會也主動全盤做盤點檢討，現在已經訂出高空作業跟公共工程地下作業、還有建案相關規定的作業指引，已經通函各機關。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個指引跟以前有什麼最大不同？有沒有看到哪裡有缺失？就是在這次開會之後找出了缺失及要求改進的地方？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們檢討結果認為，所有的法令跟專業其實都存在，也都有，但是我們覺得最大的差異就是建案在進行當中各自為政，比方前面的地質鑽探、設計、監造到廠商，這個地方沒有一個串聯，沒有組成一個合作及前後勾稽的團隊去做確認，比方這一次大直案，已經發現它的異常狀態卻沒有確認去做處置，就失去了防範不要發生的機會。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我要請教主委，因為每一個比較重大的建案或是工程案都會有設計監造。"],["吳主任委員澤成：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以換言之，你這樣講是設計、監造在這個過程當中沒有好好做品質的控管，是不是？"],["吳主任委員澤成：包括到施工，沒有整合一個團隊前後做溝通。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以就是說我們各階段的法令、相關規定都已經有存在，其實照我們的規定，如果都按部就班應該都沒問題，但是在這過程中，就是環節跟環節的銜接裡面，它沒有確實做交接，而應該要去看整個案件的設計監造單位又沒有好好去督促，所以才造成這一次房屋倒塌？"],["吳主任委員澤成：對，我這邊也跟委員說明一下，譬如公共工程，在公共工程主辦機關對一件工程的處理會有一個主政整合這樣的機制，針對設計監造還有施工，會不時在那邊做檢討，這個機制很重要，所以我們很想把這個部分能夠推廣到民間工程去，我想這樣會讓它更發揮功能。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，設計監造在這樣一個事件裡面可能要負相對大的責任，我們有沒有針對這個部分之後來做加強跟要求？"],["吳主任委員澤成：有，我們就在指引裡面，將來後續還會來協調內政部透過建築法以及營造業法相關規定來落實剛剛講的這個部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：但重點還是在於責任的給予，因為我們常常講，其實從過去幾個重大工安事故來看，如果說設計監造能夠發揮一定成效的話，就不會讓下面的施工單位胡亂施工，或是說沒有依照相關的工地指引來做施工，對不對？"],["吳主任委員澤成：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣子到底他們的責任我們可以要求到什麼程度？"],["吳主任委員澤成：其實它應盡的責任跟應辦事項在相關法令規定都非常清楚，這個沒有疑問，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：那為什麼他敢這樣？便宜行事？"],["吳主任委員澤成：他以為他自己已經做了，但是後面工程的部分前後銜接是很重要的，比方今天你設計者要去瞭解鑽探資料的準確性，對不對？然後監造者也要去確認，後面要確認前面的，然後要互相勾稽。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以主委，本席還是認為，人總是會有這種怠惰的個性，或是說人如果沒有在監控的話，可能他就會想要貪小便宜或是「頭過身就過」，而我們為什麼要訂定相關的法令，而且要嚴刑峻罰，其實某種程度上就是要避免這種僥倖的心理。酒駕是僥倖心理，認為不會抓到，一樣！這種設計監造如果說它可能沒有落實，也是僥倖心理，覺得不一定查得到我，反正我趕快做完、趕快領錢、趕快結案，所以這都是僥倖心理造成，我覺得對於心態的部分，公共工程委員會既然身為中央主管機關，而且是上位機關，就應該要想出辦法怎麼樣去讓這種僥倖心理能夠更免除。"],["吳主任委員澤成：一個是僥倖，一個是我以為你會做，你以為我會做，結果中間產生縫隙，所以我們很強調這個連結性很重要，我們會針對這方面來強化。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，是不是可以給本席更具體的，關於強化，到底你們要怎麼做？既然你剛剛已經點到這兩點，本席認同，一個是僥倖心理，我們要防止；一個是認為各自為政、本位主義所造成的漏洞跟盲點，具體要怎麼做是不是能夠一個禮拜內給本席相關資料？你們到底要怎麼做，好不好？"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來一個部分，最近我們有看到，傳出說要引進印度的勞工，並且有10萬名的印度移工引進到臺灣，我們不知道主委有沒有收到相關這種影片？也有人講說，第一、有一方面的講法是說會造成社會上的對立，可能也會助長臺灣的低薪化，但有一方面的人也覺得說臺灣確實現在就是缺工，很多人對這種工作不願意去做，如果你再沒有引進的話，重大工程可能就會延宕，甚至我們也看到非常多的工程過去有流標的狀況，追根究柢，除了工程經費不一定到位以外，另外就是找不到工人。好像最近這段時間都是看到勞動部出來擋子彈，主委，是不是講一下到底我們臺灣現在有沒有面臨這樣的狀況？一定要引進或不引進？"],["吳主任委員澤成：勞工的引進國家這部分是由勞動部在負責規劃。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是我們有沒有需要？"],["吳主任委員澤成：在營建工程方面，其實目前營造業早期限縮的非常嚴重，因此造成它的需求嚴重不足，經過我們努力之後，現在公共工程跟民間工程都已經有按照實際可以引進外籍勞工的人數，這個部分目前可以做一個抒解，這是第一個。第二個，我們工程會也不能夠主要依賴外勞，對於本勞跟技術還是要去精進，我們也已經從技術方面希望做到預鑄化，讓它的現場工作儘量減少。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啦！主委，你講的這些都是我們的政令宣導概念，我就直接問說現在我們有傳出要引進10萬名印度移工，馬上就會有人講說我們有需要那麼多嗎？一方面是說有沒有需要那麼多，一方面是說如果10萬名移工進來之後，有可能造成相關後續的問題，包括低薪問題、包括我們長期也有存在一些種族歧視等等相關，如果說真的要引進就會面臨到這些問題，但是追根究柢，現在我們到底有需要嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我應該這樣子說明，整個勞動勞工的政策是勞動部的權責，你要問我對於整體的看法，第一、我個人認為應該還是要從國內的需求到底怎麼樣……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，國內到底有沒有需求？"],["吳主任委員澤成：需求的部分，我的判斷應該是有的，但是還是要從本國勞工能做的部分去強化，讓它能夠充分引進本國勞工，不足才由外勞來補充。"],["洪委員孟楷：那我們到底有多少的缺口？有算過嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：總體來講，就是勞動部這邊在掌握。就營造業來講，我覺得目前我們是覺得還可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們國家最近這幾年的重大工程，工人的需求量夠不夠？"],["吳主任委員澤成：你講營建工程方面嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：對，就光國家重大工程的工人，不要講民間企業，不要講說可能有哪一些科技廠商建廠所以把工人都引進，這些先不講，光我們自己國家重大工程，不管是造橋鋪路、蓋新的重大建設，到目前為止，我們流標的狀況是不是也都還是有缺工的狀況？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我覺得目前應該還可以因應目前的需要。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，主委你這樣講的話那應該我們接下來所有的公共工程都不應該流標囉？"],["吳主任委員澤成：不是這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席就先講，光我的選區有一個三芝圖書館，現在流標就流標了4次，6,500萬沒人要來標，現在追加了1,000多萬變成8,000多萬，才要公開審閱，明年2月再招標，但是現在承辦人告訴我們說即便多增加了1,000多萬快2,000萬，他們也很擔心標不出去。"],["吳主任委員澤成：流標因素不一定只有缺工問題，還有很多的因素，包括它的價格合不合理、設計合不合理，都有一些相關的可能。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，但是這個圖書館相對來講設計應該沒有那麼複雜，價格是大家可以將本求利去算那個到底多少錢，現在本席沒有要挖洞給你跳，主委不用那麼的保守。"],["吳主任委員澤成：不會。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席只是看到，因為我覺得10萬名移工，其實衍生的問題我直指問題核心，我會擔心的是因為已經看到有些影片上面有人也在講，這10萬名的移工來，可能會造成後續的治安問題等等，也有人講如果不開放再多增加專案外勞的話，臺灣公共工程這2、3年會停滯的非常嚴重。這已經不是哪一個政黨執政的問題，因為建設不分藍綠，所以我現在才請教你比較上位的，尤其你又是管全國的公共工程，我們只是要確定到底有沒有需求，有需求，該引進就引進，我們就做後續的控管，沒需求，你突然跟我講說開放那麼多，那我們當然會想是不是政府又跟人家黑箱作業，又在簽訂什麼不平等條約，讓人家要進來。"],["吳主任委員澤成：我相信勞動部應該有掌握全面的需求才會做這個政策，我現在說明的是營造業的部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實勞動部是供給方，照理講你才是需求方，你是公共工程，你是需求方，需要那麼多的勞工來做，所以你應該是告訴我們說你的需求有多少，勞動部要來補足你的需求，勞動部協調本勞，如果本勞不夠，勞動部引進外勞，但你是需求方，照理講應該是你告訴我們說你的需求有多少啊。"],["吳主任委員澤成：跟委員報告，外勞的引進不是只有工程，還有很多其他的，比方說製造業。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，但目前10萬個印度外勞移工，他們是希望用做營造嘛？他們不是看護、他們不是其他的啊。"],["吳主任委員澤成：應該不是，營造的部分原來才4,000個外勞，現在已經引進到將近2萬，有1萬多個外勞，目前來看應該是還夠。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委是不是也給本席一個資料，告訴我們目前你掌握的，因為我記得之前你都有定期開會，現在重大工程的追蹤管考進度，給本席這個資料可以吧？"],["吳主任委員澤成：可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：就目前到底有哪些重大工程、流標幾次、現在辦理什麼樣的進度，至少也讓國人知道我們公共工程委員會持續都有在監控國家的重大工程建設，好不好？"],["吳主任委員澤成：可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","下一位請李昆澤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-23-10","speakers":["陳雪生","洪孟楷","李昆澤","陳歐珀","何欣純","陳椒華","陳素月","林俊憲","魯明哲","陳培瑜","邱顯智","張其祿","趙正宇","許智傑","傅崐萁","劉櫂豪"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129303","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129303_00002","1129303_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關\n於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算\n案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部\n中央氣象署單位預算","agenda_id":"1129303_00001"}}},{"id":"148778","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148778","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d4234861dc8f0671d50b14f30f66da3334563ec986728e607a0322c1dff94e1de332545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"09:33:54 - 09:45:10","影片長度":"00:11:16","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。\n三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案。\n(第三案如未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答，相關提案請於12月1日中午12時前提出。)\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-10-8-22-9"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":676,"end_time":"2023-11-29T09:45:10+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T09:33:54+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1136,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（9時33分）謝謝主席，請陳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：陳委員早。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委早。主委，聯合國氣候變化綱要公約第28次締約方會議在這個月底會召開，主要是邀請40個核能國家來加入行列，讓全球核能產量在2050年翻3倍。請問這樣的訊息，核安會有相關的掌握嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，有瞭解。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。國科會這邊跟中研院也正在密切地發展2050淨零排放的相關能源科技，針對國際間能源政策的變化，也希望核安會這邊有瞭解到、掌握到，來隨時因應國際的趨勢。","接下來，我想請教主委，核安會是我國核能及輻射安全的專責機構，執行我國關於輻射安全管制、落實緊急應變機制以及環境的偵測，來維護我國民眾安全健康。因此核安會有製作一款叫做核安e點通的app，並配合核安會組織改造，在9月底有改版，主委，你自己有下載這個app嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：有，手機有下載。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。我下載之後發現有一些問題，來提醒一下，首先是內容的部分，我有把它匡出來，這個app配合核安會的組織改造，有在9月底更新，但有些很明顯的疏漏是沒有更正到的，這不是很大的問題，但民眾一看就會覺得有點矛盾，9月27日核能安全委員會成立改版，但上面還是寫由行政院原子能委員會建置，這是有一些文字沒有修正到的部分，我提醒一下。"],["陳主任委員東陽：瞭解，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：接下來要談到的部分，是防護相關的宣導，我覺得比較容易會造成民眾的混淆，我也希望你們在製作這樣的提醒事項時，能夠更簡潔。我們先看左邊這張圖，在孕婦的部分，圖上寫說建議服用碘片是二分之一錠，但是在下方又用紅字備註，寫112年起孕婦建議服用劑量改為1錠，如果按照核安會的專業評估，建議服用量你們已經更新了，為什麼還要用舊的資訊，然後下面再備註？難道他先吃了二分之一錠，又看到是1錠，才要再補充嗎？這個部分是不是能夠更清楚地告訴大家是吃1錠還是二分之一錠？"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝陳委員的提醒，我們注意到這一點，我們年底會整個改版，事實上我有要求會裡面的同仁，所有很多很細節的地方，要把原子能委員會改成核能安全委員會，總是會有一些漏掉的地方，我們會注意，謝謝委員提醒。"],["陳委員秀寳：那個就是文字更正而已，但我現在在講的部分……"],["陳主任委員東陽：我瞭解。"],["陳委員秀寳：右邊的這張圖，大人的建議服用是1錠，注意事項又寫40歲以上成人不建議服用，如果他在服用碘片後、吞下去後才看到備註，那要怎麼辦？他已經吞下去了。所以你們是不是不要用這麼迂迴的方式做相關的宣導，就直接在上面標明，例如孕婦的部分，112年起孕婦建議量就是1錠，就直接寫1錠；大人服用1錠，上面就直接寫40歲以下的才服用，這個部分是不是比較簡單明瞭，讓民眾不會有疑慮，或是說還要看仔細下面的備註。","其實核安的宣導比其他像是地震或消防的災害宣導還比較不足，如果官方的宣導又沒有很清楚明瞭讓民眾瞭解，我覺得這個部分可以去做改善，你們覺得呢？是不是應該在上面做調整？"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝委員非常好的意見，我們會來精進這方面的細節。"],["陳委員秀寳：你需要多久來改善？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們廖組長也在，他剛才也跟我講，我們會來全面做改進，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：你們預計多久？"],["廖組長家群：原則上我們年底就會完成這個部分，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：除了app的內容要改進之外，主委，其實我必須老實說，這個app的下載量也是驚人的低，從106年上線到現在，6年的時間，雙平台的下載量總共只有1萬2,000人下載；而且在緊急應變計畫區，也就是在核電廠附近的民眾只有2.2%的人有接觸過這個app。可見核安會在推廣相關核安資訊、安全防護的部分，要向民眾說明的事項，你們並沒有非常積極，當然我也清楚核安會的預算規模不多，所以核安會也跟國科會的國家災害防救科技中心有進行合作，在災害中心的LINE官方帳號也會推播輻射災害等相關訊息。既然你們已經有跟災害防救中心合作，而且災防中心平台的訂閱人數也比你們自己的app還多，你們還有沒有要堅持做自己的app，會不會評估一下？因為其實app的建置，每個月需要一筆滿多的維管費用，也要維護這個app的資安，而你們自己如果在這個業務上的推廣也沒有很積極的話，你們覺得這個app還要做嗎？還是你們要直接跟災害防救中心來配合宣導就好？"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝委員的意見，這部分我請我們單位主管李組長來說明一下。"],["李組長綺思：跟陳委員報告，有關核安e點通的創作者原子能委員會，其實如果委員去看Android版的話，已經改過了；但是iOS版因為我們屢次跟它說要改成核安會，它一直屢次要我們提供相關資料，為什麼原能會可以改成核安會，這部分我們還是持續積極在跟iOS的廠商溝通。","另外委員講的沒錯，app的下載量確實比較低，目前大概有1萬3,000，所以目前我們就透過各種的方式，包括科普展、逐里宣導、防災演練等等各種方式，我們來鼓勵民眾下載，另外我們也有跟NCDR（國家災害防救科技中心）合作，像委員講的，以目前的方式，LINE可能會比較好，但是也跟委員報告一下，因為當初app也是委員要求核安會一定要做，我們會持續的與時俱進，看未來哪一種宣導方法比較好，我們會檢討精進，以上報告。"],["陳委員秀寳：核安會評估過後如果覺得這個app還有再繼續維持的必要性的話，我是尊重的，但是你們要如何推廣你們的app，讓民眾知道有這樣的訊息，他會去使用，然後內容也要做好，這個部分就算你做得很好，但如果沒有人點閱，其實也枉然了、也浪費了，這個部分我請你們2個月之內告訴我你們要如何推廣，你做一個書面報告給教文會的委員好了。"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：我們接下來要關心的是食品安全的部分，近日屢屢傳出日本核災區的進口食品被檢驗出有輻射物質的殘留，雖然都沒有超標，也沒有進入臺灣的市場，這也是因為我們相關單位有積極的辦理食品檢驗，民眾才能夠安心的選購相關的商品，尤其是在日本8月底含氚廢水開始排放之後，民眾的疑慮會增加，也會產生一些恐慌的現象，像之前有發生搶購鹽的這件事情，所以核安會這邊對相關核安的宣導是不是也要再加強？","再來，核安會從105年的時候編列大概有一千六百多萬以及一千三百多萬，分別在南部以及北部有設置輻射災害檢驗分析備援實驗室，從107年度開始受理檢驗，2個實驗室最大的檢驗量能每年是3,800件，但是實際總檢測的檢測量截至今年，2個實驗室每年加起來都沒有超過300件，當然我可以理解當初設置這個備援實驗室主要是如果有緊急狀況的時候、發生緊急核子事故的時候，能夠因應大量農產品、食品有需要做輻射的檢測，但那也不代表現在相安無事的時候就讓這些實驗室的一些設備閒置，尤其像剛剛提到，現在日本開始排放含氚廢水，民眾其實很焦慮，為了不讓民眾恐慌，我們是不是可以自己主動去擴大檢測，讓民眾安心，這個部分核安會有沒有考慮去訂定相關的方案？"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝委員的指教，關於2個備援實驗室，我們總共有7個，備援實驗室是在2011年福島發生災害之後，我們要增加檢測的量能，萬一發生核子事故的時候，我們這2個備援實驗室的檢驗設備可以提供給民眾有關於大量民生物品、農產品的資訊，目前這2個實驗室的確是比較低，一南一北，我想我們在核安演習跟地方政府跟app跟相關的活動……"],["陳委員秀寳：主委，本席的意思是，既然我們有這樣的設備，我們不要讓它閒置。"],["陳主任委員東陽：當然。"],["陳委員秀寳：現在因為有日本含氚廢水排放的事情發生，民眾對我們的食安有所疑慮，我們是不是可以主動去檢測相關的食品還是漁產品還是……除了檢測海水之外，其實在食物上我們可以讓民眾更安心，我們既然耗費了上千萬建置這樣的設備就應該要物盡其用，不要讓好的設備在平時就是閒置的，這個部分是不是請核安會這邊去評估看怎麼來協助民眾？既然民眾對食品安全有疑慮，核安會你們有設備，你們是不是可以主動來協助？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，我們一年的檢測量能大概是7萬600件，由核安會所屬的輻射偵測中心跟國原院2個實驗室提供檢測，抽檢的是食藥署，它在邊境抽檢日本進口的樣品，它是把它彌封，就是說沒辦法……"],["陳委員秀寳：本席的意思是，既然你們有設備，是不是可以主動來提供民眾知道你們會幫忙檢測這些食品，讓他們可以安心。"],["陳主任委員東陽：瞭解。"],["陳委員秀寳：而不是不知道這個食物、這個食品是不是有被污染，是主動地來提供這樣的協助，你們評估看看。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝，沒有問題，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝。"],["主席：我們接下來請黃國書委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-22-9","speakers":["鄭麗文","張廖萬堅","陳秀寳","黃國書","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","陳靜敏","張其祿","范雲","陳椒華","鄭正鈐","萬美玲","劉世芳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查 113 年度\n中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1129302_00001"}}},{"id":"148777","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148777","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d42348ecdca68d8dce2f64f30f66da3334563ec986728e607a0322dc5543f29fdbc7c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張廖萬堅","委員發言時間":"09:24:29 - 09:33:48","影片長度":"00:09:19","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。\n三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案。\n(第三案如未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答，相關提案請於12月1日中午12時前提出。)\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-10-8-22-9"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":559,"end_time":"2023-11-29T09:33:48+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T09:24:29+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1092,"blocks":[["張廖委員萬堅：（9時24分）謝謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：主委請。"],["張廖委員萬堅：主委好，因為質詢時間只有4分鐘，所以我們就快問快答，簡單……"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，張廖委員早。"],["張廖委員萬堅：三個問題，第一個問題是組改之後，明年是第一個完整年度的預算，可是我也知道你們為了要安置一些員額，譬如核研所改制為行政法人國原院，必須要有一些安置，我們看到總共安置了32人，而且還移撥了20個員額，等於組改之後變成行政院的三級獨立機關，但是員額卻又增加，請問在組改之後，你們的業務範圍或各方面到底有什麼調整？這樣子會產生一個比較奇怪的現象，也就是你們的行政層級往下掉了一個層級，可是人力卻增加，其實這是立法院預算中心的質疑，主委你有什麼說明？"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝。核安會承接原子能委員會所有的業務，業務其實是一模一樣。有關人力的部分，我們昨天做了詳細的瞭解，這有一些歷史緣由，因為人事主任剛來不到一個月，所以我請主秘來解說這一段，會後也會給各位比較詳細的資料，就是有關於歷史上我們是怎麼樣來解釋這一塊，現在請主秘來說明。"],["王主任秘書重德：跟委員報告，有關於移撥20個員額，那是我們在科技部核安署底下的時候，因為科技部當時跟核研所要了20個空缺，在科技部獨立升格以後，這20個缺就被行政院控管，它的條件是等到核安會組改過後再回來，所以這20個空缺本來就是核安會的。另外32個協助安置的部分，目前就是因為組改的關係，所以依照法令核安會要協助安置。"],["張廖委員萬堅：雖然這20個員額回來了，但相關預算我們沒看到啊！到底有沒有預算？"],["王主任秘書重德：目前主計總處沒有核給這20個的……"],["張廖委員萬堅：是啊！那到底這……"],["王主任秘書重德：只有空缺而已。"],["張廖委員萬堅：只有空缺嘛，就編了20個員額，但它事實上是沒有預算的。如果這是實際上需要的，而不是歷史因素的移撥，那它究竟是要做什麼？將來還是繼續有員額但沒有編制嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我想主要還是要看實際人力以及預算人事費的編列，這個部分其實……"],["張廖委員萬堅：我的想法是如果真的有業務的需要，那你們就應該趕快爭取相關預算來編列；如果只是一個歷史性因素的移撥，把編制給你了，那你將來要做什麼，將來在運用的時候就必須覈實進用，我的想法是這樣。"],["陳主任委員東陽：我瞭解，謝謝委員。"],["張廖委員萬堅：第二個，我2016年進來立法院之後，其實也看到委員們都在關心有關六氟化鈾的進度，也就是我們要運送。當年其實是因為要研究核能燃料，所以我們進了六氟化鈾，可是後來政策改變，所以這一批要發展核燃料的產業已經停止了，從1980年代到現在，其實已經放在臺灣的核能所放很久了。我記得當時是說2017年要簽約，2018年要處理，2019年要完成。我們在2018年問的時候，又說會在2018年簽約，2022年要完成。到2022年問的時候，又說今年（2023年）就會運送，明年會運送完。結果今年問的時候，又說明年（2024年）中才會運送，明年年底會完成。到底六氟化鈾的處理是遇到什麼問題？年年都編預算，但預算的執行率都不到5%，只有零到3%，主委你能不能回答我？"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝委員的指教，前幾年是因為疫情的關係，其實剛開始六氟化鈾是要送往美國處理，後來因為種種因素，所以改送到英國，但是現在的容器在英國的設計還沒有被核准，所以也沒有辦法製造容器和外送。本會對於這個專案非常關心，其實每個月都有在盯進度，也會請國原院提供一些配套的方案。"],["張廖委員萬堅：我的意思是說其實你們也曾經回答過我們說2018年12月的時候已經跟美國U公司簽約，相關運送還包括國內陸運、國外海運及陸運，同時還說國內陸運在2019年10月23日就簽約了，國外海運和陸運的部分在2020年2月21日已經第四次開標，也是由美國T公司得標，後來陸續也都議價簽約，為什麼現在又都還沒有？到底遇到什麼問題？現在你編的這個預算有沒有辦法執行？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分我請國原院高院長來回答一下細節。"],["張廖委員萬堅：會不會現在又說是因為國原院組改，所以將來又拖了？到底是遇到什麼問題？"],["高院長梓木：報告張廖委員，現在主要的問題，本來是預計今年可以運去，但向英國核管單位申請運輸容器空箱時，到今年年底才可以取得許可文件，所以依照目前的進程，在明年9月才有辦法執行到運送，運送完以後，到英國還要再做一些驗收處理，所以我們預估在明年12月底會完成檢測分析跟所有權的轉移，因為這個物料也要做所有權的移轉，因此目前很合理地預估應該是明年年底我們可以完成。"],["張廖委員萬堅：因為這個問題真的每年都有人在關心，而且你們預算有時候有編、有時候沒編，大概一年編、一年沒編，就是執行率都很低，這在審預算勢必又會被提起。我的意思就是，運送這個當然有它的國際敏感度，公司在處理也都是用代號，這個有它的困難度，究竟要如何克服，我想你們都是專家，我們都是外行，但是我們都很關心，畢竟放這麼久了，它在國內的處理成本跟其未來產生的問題，其實是比運到國外處理還高，一般的評估是這樣，所以這個部分也請你們要注意。","另外，之前我們有提到SMR，選舉到了，大家在提說核二、核三要延役等等，其實中研院也提到，國外為了2050淨零碳排的路徑，也提到小型核電商轉的問題，也就是SMR，可是我們看到三個禮拜前美國的相關計畫停止了，主委，你知道嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：知道。"],["張廖委員萬堅：我們臺灣對於這些小型模組的核能發電到底有沒有進行周邊的研究？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，我想國原院在今（112）年有做了一些study，有一些小的計畫，做了一些管制措施的研究跟國際趨勢的一些……"],["張廖委員萬堅：所以在三個禮拜前，美國本來補助非常多錢，但他們後來發現這個發電成本越來越高，一度電都超過臺幣20塊，所以他們認為……"],["陳主任委員東陽：對，也有……"],["張廖委員萬堅：對，15塊、20塊，所以他們就停止，不然已經沒有辦法了。"],["陳主任委員東陽：主要是prototype，第一個類型，商業的可行性比較低，NuScale公司跟猶他州（Utah State）的能源部分合作，因為沒有商業的可行性，所以他們就停止。"],["張廖委員萬堅：瞭解。"],["陳主任委員東陽：我想第一個初始的總是會碰到這個問題，因為研究經費墊高、原物料上漲。"],["張廖委員萬堅：國原院明年有沒有類似的研究計畫或資料蒐集？簡單說明一下，因為時間到了。"],["高院長梓木：報告委員，國原院目前由核安會委託100萬的先期研究，做這樣的……"],["張廖委員萬堅：有100萬的先期研究？"],["高院長梓木：對，尤其偏重於核安管制方面做一個先期研究。"],["張廖委員萬堅：我想最新的趨勢跟發展我們還是需要。"],["高院長梓木：是。"],["張廖委員萬堅：如果技術已經成熟，臺灣也不可能自外於國際；當然如果它遇到問題，我們也不可能浪費很多錢在這上面。"],["高院長梓木：報告委員，事實上……"],["張廖委員萬堅：沒關係，我們還要審查預算，詳細的數字我相信下個禮拜一你可以再提供給我們。謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請陳秀寳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-22-9","speakers":["鄭麗文","張廖萬堅","陳秀寳","黃國書","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","陳靜敏","張其祿","范雲","陳椒華","鄭正鈐","萬美玲","劉世芳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查 113 年度\n中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1129302_00001"}}},{"id":"148776","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148776","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d423489a3f77d83bdbf8e9500069142ad034a1c986728e607a03224a7ded5c40f3c2c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"曾銘宗","委員發言時間":"09:20:26 - 09:28:46","影片長度":"00:08:20","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員陳明文等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員游毓蘭等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員周春米等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員何志偉等29人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳椒華等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林靜儀等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員莊競程等26人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員陳靜敏等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n三、審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-10-8-36-23"},"date":"2023-11-29","duration":500,"end_time":"2023-11-29T09:28:46+08:00","start_time":"2023-11-29T09:20:26+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":272,"blocks":[["曾委員銘宗：（9時20分）好，謝謝。幾個問題，首先請教警政署，今天是刑事局的彭警監，請你說明一下，有關行政院鄭文燦副院長的那個影片，現在到底調查的結果是怎麼樣？到底是真的還假的？還是沒辦法判定？"],["彭警政監莉娟：報告委員，因為這件案子是中正一分局送刑事局，當時在調查深偽影像的時候跟調查局有一個共識，就是我們有兩個軟體，如果兩個軟體的結論是不一樣的，我們就要下無法判斷的決定。因此我們已將這個結果送回了中正一分局，然後已經移請檢察官處理了。"],["曾委員銘宗：已經有移給檢調，對不對？"],["彭警政監莉娟：是。"],["曾委員銘宗：所以這兩個軟體判定，一個是沒有偽造，一個是判定61.5%也是沒有偽造，對不對？"],["彭警政監莉娟：61.5%的深偽可能性，另外一套是認為沒有發現深偽，因為兩套結論不一樣，所以我們只能判斷為「無法判斷」。"],["曾委員銘宗：無法判定？"],["彭警政監莉娟：是。"],["曾委員銘宗：鄭文燦副院長說都是偽造的，我不要用打臉啦，基本上，已經否定鄭文燦副院長的講法，我這樣的理解對不對？"],["彭警政監莉娟：這個可能要由檢察官來負責處理。"],["曾委員銘宗：好，謝謝。"],["彭警政監莉娟：謝謝。"],["曾委員銘宗：黃次長，你的理解是怎麼樣？我的理解有沒有錯？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，因為這個涉及到專業的判斷，也涉及到檢察官當時委任刑事局去鑑定的時候，他鑑定的事項、詢問的事項是什麼，因為他的鑑定結果一定是針對那個詢問事項去回答，所以他回答的事項要涉及到檢察官的問題是什麼。"],["曾委員銘宗：對，所以簡單講，副院長說是偽造的，但結果不是，沒辦法判定嘛！我請教次長，下一步，您作為檢調的主管機關，你有沒有想法？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，因為您問的下一步就已經是個案的偵辦了。"],["曾委員銘宗：對。"],["黃次長謀信：個案偵辦的部分，我是檢察行政，可能沒有辦法回答委員這個問題，因為下一步一定是偵查步驟、偵查的程序了。"],["曾委員銘宗：對。"],["黃次長謀信：那個可能我們法務部在個案上就沒有辦法……"],["曾委員銘宗：好，我們能不能建議？立法院的委員能不能提出相關建議？建議可不可以提？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們在偵查犯罪時，任何民眾對於偵查都可以提供一些線索或方向，這是沒有問題的。"],["曾委員銘宗：好，你就把我當一般民眾，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["曾委員銘宗：你就把我當成2,300萬民眾之一，這樣可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：沒問題，可以。"],["曾委員銘宗：好，我先問，調查局為什麼不自己做鑑定？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，因為選任鑑定人是檢察官的權限，所以檢察官要選任誰當鑑定人，由檢察官決定，他今天選了刑事局，就是刑事局，所以是檢察官的判斷。"],["曾委員銘宗：我建議，因為調查局有這個能力鑑定，調查局能不能再鑑定一次？這是第一點。第二點，假設調查局沒辦法鑑定，能不能送到國外去鑑定？請教次長，我知道你是檢調，你是資深的檢察官，你認為送到國外去，多久可以鑑定出來？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，要使用什麼樣的證據方法去調查這個個案，檢察官會去判斷，這個鑑定結果檢察官有可能還有其他的法定證據方法可以去調查，或者委員所提的、所建議的，另外再選定其他的鑑定人，這種可能性都是存在的，但是要取決於個案檢察官去做選定。"],["曾委員銘宗：沒關係，次長，我尊重，你就把我當2,300萬民眾之一，我剛好有這個機會跟你討教，我都尊重，好不好？你就把我曾委員當作2,300萬民眾之一跟你做建議，好不好？我的建議就是，因為我也知道你這是個案，所以第一個，請調查局儘速做鑑定。你把我當2,300萬民眾之一，以你的瞭解，假設調查局願意，需要多久？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，因為剛才提到，任何民眾都可以建議檢察官偵查方向跟偵查作為。"],["曾委員銘宗：對。"],["黃次長謀信：我們今天跟委員的這個質詢，我相信相關地檢署的首長或檢察官也有聽到委員的質詢，所以這個方向也會列入他未來的調查方向之一。至於委員提到鑑定要多久才能回來。"],["曾委員銘宗：以你的專業判斷要多久？因為你長期做檢察官，你知道嘛。"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，對，我是檢察官，但是我不是鑑定的專業。"],["曾委員銘宗：對，但這是你專業的一部分，你覺得呢？你也把你當作2,300萬民眾之一好了，要不要？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，那個鑑定涉及到鑑定的繁複難易。"],["曾委員銘宗：你沒有這方面的專業嗎？我沒有，你應該有啊！"],["黃次長謀信：鑑定本身我當然沒有，我們當然是指揮……"],["曾委員銘宗：那期間要多久？你以前送過很多案子啊！"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，每個案件的難易程度不一樣。"],["曾委員銘宗：好，你用最難的。"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，有些鑑定、醫事鑑定可以拖到1、2年都有可能，所以……"],["曾委員銘宗：我不希望拖到選後，好不好？我今天是用2,300萬民眾最卑微的建議可以嗎，次長？"],["黃次長謀信：我已經跟委員報告了，剛剛委員所提出來的，我相信他的首長或是檢察官本身，就民眾的建議……"],["曾委員銘宗：你不能幫我轉達嗎？一定要他看到嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，這個也沒問題，這不是偵查的內容。"],["曾委員銘宗：次長，我跟你講，我現在是不是用立委的身分。"],["黃次長謀信：對，瞭解。"],["曾委員銘宗：我是用2,300萬民眾之一的卑微要求，不可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，這沒有問題，就民眾反映的意見，我們當然可以基於檢察行政的角度轉給地檢署參酌，這個沒有問題。"],["曾委員銘宗：好，另外，假設調查局不願意送到國外去，可不可以？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，這個就涉及我剛剛跟委員講的，就是檢察官選定鑑定人，鑑定人就是他的核心……"],["曾委員銘宗：好，我再用2,300萬民眾之二的建議好了，可不可以幫我轉達？"],["黃次長謀信：這個意見同樣地我們當然也可以基於檢察行政的立場處理，因為委員提到你要以民眾的角度出發，用民眾有這樣的建議，提供相關偵查方向的建議，我們會轉給北檢參考，這沒問題。"],["曾委員銘宗：好，另外，其實我在司法委員會包括第9屆、這次是第10屆，也就是2年了，我每次看到有關重大的修法，司法院跟法務部常常打筆戰，有不同的意見，等一下1點還要協商，我不用協商啦，就講那一天的酒駕、毒駕，第一百八十五條之三毒駕的部分，再審也沒有意見啊！朝野協商過了，現在又拉來要協商了，不要在這邊浪費大家的意見。今天下午要進行朝野的預算協商，我要要求以後法務部跟司法院沒有共識的法案，不要送到立法院來，不然的話，這個不通過，我們就看看法務部跟司法院的預算要不要過，全部都讓它過，你們兩個留下來，謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝曾銘宗委員。","先休息一下。","休息（9時28分）","繼續開會（9時31分）"],["主席：好，繼續開會。","下一位請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-36-23","speakers":["湯蕙禎","陳椒華","陳靜敏","曾銘宗","王鴻薇","賴香伶","江永昌","吳怡玎","林淑芬","劉建國","謝衣鳯","林思銘","鄭運鵬","吳琪銘"],"page_start":303,"meetingDate":["2023-11-29"],"gazette_id":"1129301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員陳\n明文等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員林楚茵等20 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條\n文修正草案」案、 ( 五)委員蔡易餘等20 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條\n之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七) 委員游毓蘭等17 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正\n草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一) 司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員周春米等27 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 委員何志偉\n等29 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 委員陳椒華等27 人擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員林靜儀等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟\n法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 委員莊競程等26 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八\n十二條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員陳靜敏等19 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正\n草案」案、( 八) 委員劉建國等16 人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案；三、\n審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1129301_00002"}}},{"id":"15317","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15317","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc69f9bd0cb75d545db761654f0ebe352d46d53a332764a535f27178814777c61e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員陳明文等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）時代力量黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員翁重鈞等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員游毓蘭等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百四十一條及第四百四十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員周春米等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員何志偉等29人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員陳椒華等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林靜儀等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百五十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員莊競程等26人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員陳靜敏等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百八十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n三、審查司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2023-11-29","start_time":"2023-11-29T08:31:15+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-10-8-36-23"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-11-29T12:26:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14085,"委員發言時間":"08:31:15 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start":2044.687,"end":2049.25,"text":"現在進行提案說明及報告。先進行提案委員說明。發言時間3分鐘。"},{"start":2073.72,"end":2101.641,"text":"現在請提案人時代力量黨團代表陳焦華委員進行提案說明。時代力量黨團提案說明從過去許多環境犯罪中可以看到許多案件受到緩起訴後卻將待於清除繼承的環境污染反而造成污染持續擴大"},{"start":2103.018,"end":2119.09,"text":"議員林楚茵等20人擬具:「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。」案。議員林楚茵等20人擬具:「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。案。議員林楚茵等20人擬具:「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2130,"end":2140.308,"text":"在刑事訴訟法第253條之二規定,關於受到還起訴處分的被告檢察官可以要求被告必須在一段時間內遵守或履行一些事項。"},{"start":2157.14,"end":2184.575,"text":"環境污染案件受到司法系統偵查及後續審理終結後其中更重要是要求行為人必須針對製造的污染進行回復原狀讓行為人必須為此負責因此十二兩黨團在刑事訴訟法第253之二"},{"start":2186.996,"end":2209.187,"text":"厲（一）第九款中放盡斟酌犯罪危害及被告能力而認為屬適當之必要命令,讓檢察官作出緩起訴處分時可以直接有對應的條款,要求回復原狀。"},{"start":2211.13,"end":2235.198,"text":"實例黨團及本席都有相關的提案主要是因為以上的說明的確有這樣的情況而且這樣的危害持續擴大造成國土的危害因此希望能夠參採並在後續相關案件的審理判決能夠"},{"start":2241.849,"end":2242.69,"text":"來採用。以上謝謝。"},{"start":2264.99,"end":2281.772,"text":"謝謝主席今天是有關於刑事訴訟法第182條我個人提案主要是因為我了解182條原則上是要解決所謂的拒絕證言權因為現在有很多的職業的特殊性"},{"start":2282.193,"end":2282.533,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2312.513,"end":2312.793,"text":"閱讀法條中﹗"},{"start":2340.538,"end":2364.67,"text":"以這個著理人這樣子的一個概念就可以享有拒絕證言權那我個人認為這樣子的一個想法應該是已經非常out of date特別是昨天這個廳長跟法官有來我辦公室解釋那溝通的過程裡面我發覺司法院對我國護理專業的發展仍然停留在護理人員是醫師的助手"},{"start":2365.771,"end":2388.19,"text":"因為護理人員法第24條裡面就規定護理人員的業務有四項包括健康問題的評估、預防保健的護理措施、護理指導及諮詢以及醫療輔助行為。所以醫療輔助行為只是其中的第四項而已。護理職業其實很多都是獨立作業並不是著力。譬如說昨天在討論的過程裡面"},{"start":2390.071,"end":2410.11,"text":"議長和法官提到,為什麼住產誌會列進來,除了因為住產誌可能會得知是不是有未婚生子,所以需要有這樣的保密義務,要列入條文當中。但是其實我們的司法體系可能不知道,現今能夠了解學生可能有未婚生子的其實是學校護理師。"},{"start":2411.391,"end":2419.979,"text":"所以這樣子的一個獨立作業的情況之下我覺得護理人員應該要享有這樣子的一個拒絕證言權特別是護理人員法第24條在2014年的時候因應專科護理師的徵修已經明白的指出專科護理師在醫師監督下執行"},{"start":2430.868,"end":2432.109,"text":"〈刑事訴訟法部分條文〉案"},{"start":2456.511,"end":2484.91,"text":"護理人員的獨立自主權其實不應該再被視為醫師的佐理員,特別是我國在2025年就要邁入超高齡社會,這時候的主要醫療照顧者可能就是老人專科護理師。所以如果把這個護理人員只放在所謂的醫師佐理人上面,我覺得他的涵蓋面是不夠的,特別是以後如果老人在走完最後一層的時候陪伴他最多的可能就是這位護理師。"},{"start":2486.391,"end":2513.138,"text":"如果涉及相關的遺產徵送、侵佔、背信、偽造這些可能護理人員知道的會比醫師還多所以在這樣子的一個情況之下我個人是覺得我們希望能夠徵修護理人員在這一條法條上面特別是刑事訴訟法的修法上次已經是2003年隨著時代的進步應該把這一些人的專業角色有一個充分的瞭解所以以上報告"},{"start":2514.602,"end":2519.483,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進、各位先生、各位女士。"},{"start":2543.511,"end":2559.889,"text":"本日所審查的三項修正法案本人請代表司法院進行報告第一項是關於刑事訴訟法條文修正草案這一項"},{"start":2562.739,"end":2562.799,"text":"第二項（"},{"start":2590.41,"end":2607.018,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案這一項草案最主要是在強化身心障礙者在整個審理程序當中如何獲得保障"},{"start":2610.512,"end":2630.788,"text":"那麼第三項關於刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文的草案,這個最主要是為了要妥適解決,"},{"start":2633.038,"end":2661.1,"text":"刑事訴訟法修正施行前已經為本條294條、第一項、第二項、還有295條、第二、298條停止審理、審判或不為繼續審判程序等裁定。那麼在施行之後,德夥提起抗告的問題,那麼如何維持這個程序上的安定性,那所做的"},{"start":2662.639,"end":2665.5,"text":"以上報告敬請各位委員指教。"},{"start":2678.229,"end":2696.847,"text":"主席、各位委員、今天代表本部列席備詢。以下就相關內容請參閱本部的書面報告。以下僅就上代斟酌的部分,說明如下。第一,修正刑署288的部分,本部認為這一個良心的部分,"},{"start":2697.267,"end":2721.954,"text":"而事項是法院應執前調查的部分,所以這部分尚待斟酌。修正條文第477條的部分,有關於上本應該由檢察官通知受刑的部分,本部認為尚非妥適,因為這部分是民事訴訟的概念,必非刑事訴訟的概念。本部認為應該要比照刑訴163之一的相關規定,"},{"start":2724.675,"end":2742.751,"text":"當時申請書狀提交善本之後由法院送達這是這部分第三部分有關於蔡委員提修正草案的部分就律師全聯會理事長可以申請提非常上訴這件事情本部認為目前限制由最高檢察總長"},{"start":2743.892,"end":2763.069,"text":"單附及非常上述的制度已經可以兼顧制度跟公義跟被告權益的保護,這跟對抗制度無關,所以這部分的修正可尚待審酌。有關於修正條文三十一條的部分,本部認為偵查中、審判中就羈押的被告賦予強制辯護權也並非妥適,"},{"start":2765.091,"end":2787.783,"text":"因為在押的被告並不一定都是重罪而且他也不一定都是經濟上的弱勢而且這將就偵查中強制辯護的話會增加國庫每年預計將近一億三千萬的這個偵查成本所以這部分呢全國世界各國也沒有在偵查中在押的被告就可以強制辯護的修法規定所以這部分容請在座那"},{"start":2788.723,"end":2803.789,"text":"另外有關於這一個和委員自委所提的修正草案部分在刑訴253條第六款增加生命教育這個緩起處處分的條件本部認為這部分在現行法的第八款的預防再犯命令裡面"},{"start":2804.489,"end":2821.792,"text":"已經有相關的規範,不必重複再進行規範。另外有關於陳教法等委員所提出的修正草案,關於增訂253條第九款的部分,本部也認為這部分已經在253條之二第八款可以處理,是否有增訂必要再行審酌。"},{"start":2822.833,"end":2849.546,"text":"另外有關於林靜敏委員所提的這個是不是在緩起處處分金補助對象增加醫療機構的部分本部認為醫療機構它是具有對照性跟有償性跟我們現行法制上的公益團體跟地方自治團體不具對象性不同所以我們認為緩起處處分金補助對象是否要包括醫療機構是容許、容有在座的空間另外有關於心理師這個因"},{"start":2851.707,"end":2869.253,"text":"因拒絕證言的部分本部認為這會造成權力濫用跟影響正式發現所以這部分也請再酌另外有關於陳委員靜敏所提的護理師的部分列入182修正條文的部分本部認為就是說這個保密義務跟作證義務衝突的時候現行的這個護理師法"},{"start":2871.434,"end":2871.454,"text":"閱讀委員"},{"start":2895.322,"end":2897.104,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2915.862,"end":2943.153,"text":"​​將進行法案的實質審查,討論條文的時候仍有機會充分的表達意見。另外,下午一時一點還有黨團的協商會議,因此尋答的時間本會委員為6分鐘,非本會委員為3分鐘,均不再延長。上午10時30分截止發言登記。我們請登記第一位我們的曾明忠委員發言。"},{"start":2945.677,"end":2970.016,"text":"好謝謝幾個問題首先請教警政署今天是刑事局的警監請你說明一下就是有關行政院鄭文燦委員他那個影片那現在到底"},{"start":2970.976,"end":2975.807,"text":"現在調查的結果是怎麼樣?到底是真的還是假的?還是沒辦法判定?"},{"start":2977.109,"end":3001.148,"text":"報告委員因為這件案子是中正一分局送刑事局那這個在當時在調查身為照片那個影像的時候跟調查局有一個共識就是我們有兩個軟體如果兩個軟體的結論是不一樣的我們就要下無法判斷的決定因此我們將這個結果呢"},{"start":3003.73,"end":3010.114,"text":"已經送回了中正醫分局,然後已經有依請檢察官地方再處理了。已經有一個檢調對不對?是。所以這兩個軟體判定,一個是沒有偽造,一個是判定61.5%也是沒有偽造對不對?"},{"start":3029.015,"end":3051.701,"text":"61.5%的身為可能性那另外一套是認為沒有發現身為因為兩套結論是不一樣所以我們只能判斷為無法判斷無法判定所以跟鄭文燦副院長講說就偽造了所以基本上我不要用打臉一定火定"},{"start":3053.148,"end":3053.168,"text":"閱讀委員"},{"start":3068.94,"end":3090.254,"text":"報告委員因為這個涉及到一個專業的判斷也涉及到檢察官當時委托委任這個刑事局去鑑定的時候他的鑑定的事項詢問的事項是什麼因為他鑑定結果一定是針對那個詢問的事項去回答嘛所以他回答的事項要涉及到檢察官問題是什麼對所以簡單講嘛院副院長講說是偽造這結果不是嘛沒辦法判定"},{"start":3098.676,"end":3107.643,"text":"所以我請教次長下一步您作為檢調的主管機關您有沒有想法?"},{"start":3109.406,"end":3129.051,"text":"法務委員,因為您問的下一步就已經是個案的偵辦了。對。個案偵辦我是檢查行政,我可能沒有辦法回答委員這個問題。因為下一步一定是偵查步驟了嘛,偵查的程序了。對。那個可能我們就法務部就個案上就沒有辦法。好。是。我們能不能建議,立法院的委員能不能提出相關建議。"},{"start":3130.711,"end":3130.871,"text":"議員林楚茵"},{"start":3150.319,"end":3179.173,"text":"那我先問那調查局為什麼不自己做鑑定?各位報告因為選任鑑定人是檢察官的權限所以檢察官他要選任誰當鑑定人檢察官決定所以他今天選了刑事局就是刑事局那我建議啊我建議因為調查局有這個能力鑑定那我建議調查局能不能再鑑定一次這第一點第二點假設調查局沒辦法鑑定"},{"start":3180.106,"end":3192.375,"text":"能不能送到國外去,鑑定。請教市長,我知道你是檢調,你是資深的檢察官,你認為送到國外去,多久可以鑑定出來?"},{"start":3193.988,"end":3218.447,"text":"公務員報告,那要用使用什麼樣的這個證據方法去調查這個個案,檢察官他會去判斷。那這個鑑定結果,檢察官有可能還有其他的法定的證據方法可以去調查,或者說委員所提的、所建議的,另外再選定其他的鑑定人,這種可能性都是存在的,但是要取決於個案檢察官他去做選定。沒關係,次長我尊重,你就把我當2300萬民眾之一吧。"},{"start":3221.229,"end":3247.959,"text":"那我剛好有機會跟你討教我的尊重好不好你就幫我當作曾委員當作2300萬民眾之一跟你做建議好不好那我的建議就是因為我也知道你的個案嘛所以第一個請調查局盡速做鑑定那以你了解假設調查局我沒有改假設他願意啦齁你把我當2300萬民眾之一假設他願意要多久"},{"start":3249.116,"end":3277.909,"text":"跟委員報告因為委員剛才提到如果任何民眾都可以建議檢察官偵查方向跟偵查作為相信我們今天委員的這個質詢我相信相關地檢署的首長或是檢察官他也聽到委員的質詢所以這個方向他也會列入他未來調查方向之一那最近委員提到說鑑定要多久能回來以你的專業判斷要多久因為你長期做檢察官你知道對我是檢察官但是我不是鑑定的這個專業對但你這是你的專業一部分你覺得呢你也把你當作兩千三百萬民眾之一好了"},{"start":3278.029,"end":3278.969,"text":"好不好,我今天是用2300萬民眾"},{"start":3307.867,"end":3308.147,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":3325.385,"end":3325.806,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":3325.806,"end":3340.662,"text":"我現在不是用立委的,我是用您的講喔,用2300萬民眾之一的卑微要求,不可以嗎?委員這沒有問題,就民眾的反應的意見,我們當然可以轉移檢查行政的角度,我們會轉給地檢署,請他參酌,這個沒有問題。 bicyC."},{"start":3340.662,"end":3346.469,"text":"好,另外,假設立法局不願意送到國外去,可以不可以?"},{"start":3347.13,"end":3376.354,"text":"報告委員這個就涉及我剛剛委員講的就是說檢察官但是檢察官選定監務人就是他的核心事項了。好!我再用2300萬民眾之二好了的建議可不可以幫我轉達?這個意見同樣的我們當然也可以就是說自己檢察行政因為有民眾因為委員你提到你民眾角度來出發嘛用民眾有這樣的建議這相關的這個偵查方向參考我們會轉給北檢參考這問題。好!我是好!另外喔!"},{"start":3377.341,"end":3403.658,"text":"因為今天其實我在司法委員會包括第九屆這一次第十屆也只有兩年了我每次看到有關重大的修法常常司法院跟法務部打比戰不同的意見等一下一點還要協商我不用協商啦就講那一天的酒駕"},{"start":3405.828,"end":3431.469,"text":"獨駕一百八十五條之三獨駕在這省也沒有意見啊草原協商過啦現在又要辣椰協商啦不要在這邊浪費大家的意見我這一次今天下午要進行草原的預算協商我要要求以後法務部跟司法院沒有共識的法院不要送到立法院來"},{"start":3433.319,"end":3434.139,"text":"二）委員陳明中委員"},{"start":3608.98,"end":3609.62,"text":"王鴻薇委員"},{"start":3635.049,"end":3660.095,"text":"就是有關於之前我們在司法法制委員會做成決議讓我們法務部能夠去釐清有關於在網路上流傳指涉是行政院副院長鄭文篡他帶女子進房間的這個影片那麼"},{"start":3661.355,"end":3676.683,"text":"因為這個程序當然我想在這邊我還是要做一個抗議因為事實上到目前為止我們司法法制委員會沒有接到任何法務部給我們的回應沒有任何的相關的報告"},{"start":3677.623,"end":3696.992,"text":"但是反而是在前兩天我再次召開記者會之後禮拜一召開記者會之後由我們中正一分局他們發布新聞稿來說明這個影片他們經過辨識之後的結果我想這一點也要跟"},{"start":3698.112,"end":3713,"text":"主席來報告我覺得法務部實在是太藐視我們司法法制委員會然後對於我們要求的報告竟然我們是要透過媒體媒體才看到而且是由中正一分局主動來發布這個新聞告"},{"start":3716.682,"end":3733.842,"text":"第二件事情就是這個影片事實上我認為中正一分局已經將鑑識的結果事實上已經講得非常清楚因為它對外的說明就是經過中正一分局送檢驗之後"},{"start":3736.178,"end":3762.757,"text":"沒有辦法確定這個影片有身為的可能我覺得他們是自爭俱灼翻成白話文來說就是沒有辦法確定它是造假我想請問一下法務部次長你是專業這個的說法是不是就是說這個影片沒有辦法確定它是造假"},{"start":3764.097,"end":3777.724,"text":"跟委員報告,所謂跟委員報告就是說有關上一次我們市委會的決議事實上本部在隔天就把相關的文件轉給台北地檢署依法處理那至於這個揭露這個"},{"start":3779.185,"end":3779.485,"text":"議員林楚茵"},{"start":3799.514,"end":3800.675,"text":"您們的副司長有來我辦公室來做說明我要講的是我們從頭到尾司法法制委員會沒有要求說對這個案件我們介入調查"},{"start":3817.705,"end":3836.152,"text":""},{"start":3836.893,"end":3860.629,"text":"憲文燦副院長的名譽置身我也很想趕快讓他能夠還他清白所以呢我是說這個影片的真偽所以第一個我覺得我們最後是由媒體去看到這樣的結果我個人是覺得這樣子真的是非常非常不尊重我們司法法制委員會第二個市長我想請教就是我剛才所說的"},{"start":3861.209,"end":3874.179,"text":"總政院一分局做出來的結論說沒有辦法確認這個影片是有身為的可能那是不是就代表說他沒有辦法經過鑑定之後沒有辦法確定說這個影片是假的"},{"start":3875.01,"end":3900.538,"text":"跟委員報告這個回答的內容我也是經由媒體的揭露才知道回答的內容這個回答的結果要涉及到檢察官當時委選任這個鑑定機關鑑定的項目是什麼我們鑑定事項的問題是什麼會決定他答案是什麼我們現在就我本身來講就法務台來講我們根本不可能知道臺北地檢署當時委託鑑定機關鑑定的項目他的問題是什麼"},{"start":3907.721,"end":3924.837,"text":"您說鑑定項目很多種那至少在說這裡面有沒有身為技術這個影片有沒有使用身為技術他至少沒有辦法證明說這個影片確實有deep fake這樣的一個一個技術在裡面造假嗎?對不對?"},{"start":3926.198,"end":3942.111,"text":"我答案還是一樣,因為涉及到題目問什麼,答案就會是什麼,而且這個答案是不是他所有鑑定裡面的其中一部分,還是就已經是全部的答案,其實我們都不知道。所以這個必須要看甲官問他的問題,他才針對他甲官問題來回答。"},{"start":3943.832,"end":3962.254,"text":"所以就這個問題本身我沒辦法判斷就是說這問題他在回答什麼問題?他的答案在回答什麼問題?我現在不知道你回答什麼問題嗎?我要講的是,終勝一分局給我們的答案非常清楚啦,翻成大白話,就是他不是假的。他沒有辦法說這個影片是假的,不是嗎?"},{"start":3964.568,"end":3988.224,"text":"對不對?你們也有很豐富的辦案經驗啊。然後一看這個意思就是說,我告訴你,他不能說他是假的。他未來在辦案的這個過程裡面,你不能說這個影片是造假。對不對?不管他最後辦案的結果是如何。我們看鑑定報告有時候不會是這樣子看,因為要全班的去看整個鑑定的結果,跟相關的鑑定內容,這只是其中一句話。"},{"start":3989.085,"end":3992.228,"text":"我跟你們說你們都為了鄭文燦拗得非常非常的辛苦啦然後我也非常理解周正義分局為什麼要發新聞稿啊因為周正義分局也不要背這個鍋因為他事實上早在11月8號他就把這個"},{"start":4008.585,"end":4025.115,"text":"這些鑑識的結果就已經送到地檢署了。他11月8號就送到地檢署。然後看我們呢,一下子質詢,一下子開記者會,好像呢,他們好像在故意拖延。所以人家中正一分局事實上是,我知道他們是送刑事局去鑑定啦。"},{"start":4025.655,"end":4043.013,"text":"他們是送刑事局,因為我們只有兩大縣,一個是你們調查局,一個就是刑事局嘛。所以刑事局鑑定已經回來,然後11月8號也送了地檢署。然後你們就不肯,就一直把他噎著屋著,然後希望一直混過去。可是呢,真相終有大白的一天啊。"},{"start":4043.553,"end":4064.194,"text":"那我是覺得你們現在把他整個的屋住然後幫他這樣凹很難看不應該用整個國家機器去幫他硬凹然後還凹成說61.1說他有身為的可能明明他不是結果嘛因為他有兩次嘛他有兩次的見識"},{"start":4066.937,"end":4074.765,"text":"然後現在硬硬人家中證一份告知說沒有身為的可能。然後這文章把他凹成說這就是一個用AI什麼來造假的一個影片。根本胡說八道。我要求的是我們的國家機器應該維持整個的中立。不要為任何一個政治人物幫他擦脂抹粉。"},{"start":4089.059,"end":4102.988,"text":"然後最後賠帳的是什麼賠帳的是我們在整個的司法體系警政司法體系不要被他埋葬嘛所以中正一分局今天為什麼跳出來我也嚇一跳啊我也覺得好奇怪他為什麼不早講啊怎麼要搞到11月8號咧然後到現在才講就是人家不願再背這個鍋那所以我覺得今天法務部竟然既然中正一分局"},{"start":4115.396,"end":4143.831,"text":"已經提出報告既然中正一分局已經用新聞稿來說明你們可以把報告給我們給我們司法法制委員會了嗎?可以了嗎?跟委員報告齁你請聽檢署說就這個影片的部分不能給我們司法法制委員會嗎?報告委員我現在告訴你人家都已經曝光啦報告委員那個是鑑定的結果他還要其他的調查方法去調查所以它不見得是一個結果真正的結果"},{"start":4143.951,"end":4172.839,"text":"我只要求鑑定結果,我們講了嘛,我們要的只要鑑定,我不要,你們現在犯案是,我充分尊重,充分尊重檢察官犯案,但是這個影片到底是真的還是假的,這麼清楚的事情,那天調查局局長告訴我,兩個禮拜就可以完成,啊不然你送調查局,局長說兩個禮拜就可以完成了,其實,其實中正一分局也是很快啊,他們大概一個多禮拜,大概十天,他們也完成了。"},{"start":4173.857,"end":4198.307,"text":"那你為什麼要拖到現在呢?更為報告,因為那鑑定結果,它畢竟是檢察官偵查的核心。檢察官認為它可符合揭露或公開的規範,它自然就會揭露。它今天沒有告訴法務部,代表它本來就不可以告訴法務部,甚至它不應該告訴法務部。這是偵辦檢察官、個案檢察官他的權限。就檢察行政的角度看,我不可以教他把鑑定結果向法務部報告,這反而是違法。"},{"start":4198.507,"end":4211.425,"text":"我們只要求這個影片到底是真的假的這個影片很重要如果你們不願意是你們不願意還這文章清白我這邊直接記錄法務部不願意還這文章清白"},{"start":4213.049,"end":4226.012,"text":"大家都認為這個影片是真的這個影片沒有造假然後你們還是不願意公佈那就是代表你們也不願還他清白是我王宏威願意還鄭文燦清白趕快告訴我們假的還真的我跟你講你們這樣子呢是害鄭文燦我直接說啦"},{"start":4233.494,"end":4247.085,"text":"黨堂一個行政院副院長坐在那邊然後在網路上流傳這些影片然後送檢驗那個去鑑識之後送鑑識的報告也沒有辦法去證明影片為假"},{"start":4248.266,"end":4277.45,"text":"否則的話你們早就敲鑼打鼓我敢保證如果這個影片確實造假的話你們早就敲鑼打鼓而且立刻去抓那個影片的那個散播者你們事實上也都沒有嗎他也去告啦他告了以後也沒有啊因為你不敢證明說影片為假啦好啦我知道那個什麼因為下面我們還有謝謝謝謝謝謝我們主席台北地檢署他在符合可以公開的時候他就會公開我們要相信台北地檢署的檢察官啦"},{"start":4278.853,"end":4289.951,"text":"他符合相關可以公開的規定的時候,他就應該要公開啊。而不是他認為現在還不能公開,代表他...因為不能公開,因為這個影片是真的,所以不能公開。好啦,我不要再繼續耽誤時間,謝謝主席。"},{"start":4293.453,"end":4320.814,"text":"謝謝王宏威委員由於議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢尚未確定現在先確定議事錄請問各位上次會議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏兩位委員有沒有意見沒有沒有錯誤遺漏我們議事錄確定下一位謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員未到再下一位請戴香林委員發言"},{"start":4323.935,"end":4340.676,"text":"謝謝主席請教我們司法院秘書長那我這邊有一個資料我想你也了解就是日前我們自己司法院也有一個新聞稿來釐清就是說在八月份的時候呢我們司法院好像有資料外洩的案件"},{"start":4341.517,"end":4348.803,"text":"司法院成立調查專案小組,依之通安全事件通報與應變辦法來進行通報。當時新聞稿寫得很明確,信誓旦旦,認為未涉及到機敏部分,"},{"start":4357.807,"end":4359.149,"text":"則此組織亦無提供民眾註冊帳號,亦無儲存判決書等。這是在11月13日資訊處的一個新聞發布。後來時隔大概兩個禮拜,"},{"start":4372.657,"end":4398.832,"text":"我們自己司法院又發了一個澄清的新聞就講到說我們在檢視的之前八月份外洩的資料就發現有部分案件的主文公告含有裁判書的理由內容然後呢也有部分主文公告含有個資發現923件個資的外洩那我想請教因為秘書長您是幾月來的我是六月"},{"start":4399.411,"end":4399.491,"text":"議員,我們現在是……"},{"start":4424.537,"end":4451.834,"text":"在發生之後我們目前當然最重要的就是按照個人資料保護法12條還有事情細則。我是說你們怎麼會有這個落差一開始就信誓旦旦說這個也沒有任何機敏部分外洩各自好像也沒有外洩然後也沒有裁判書然後呢之後再次查證之後發現有裁判書理由內容公開了然後也有九百多個各自外洩這個落差是怎麼查出來那今天資訊處副處長有來嘛"},{"start":4453.655,"end":4481.683,"text":"就是說你們內部自己是怎麼樣做釐清一開始說沒有後來又查到有那現在這樣子在通報的部分包括一開始要通報給各個這個主管機關的話那現在是補通報還是怎麼樣通報都有通報因為後來可是通報之前的通報跟後來查到的內容不同你們如何做處理這有落差的就是後來這個都會通報後來也通報因為我們現在整個這個個資這方面是非常重要所以有"},{"start":4482.103,"end":4504.891,"text":"有各種即時的狀況都要通報了。那你們現在採取的做法是什麼?就是我們因為按照個資法12條還有細則22條最重要的就是保護這些個資的所有人避免被害。現在已經發生了所以你們現在是採取變更密碼?"},{"start":4506.169,"end":4507.831,"text":"minster."},{"start":4507.831,"end":4524.548,"text":"設定主機防火牆規則還是管理的這個單位怎麼樣做改善措施這個到底現在進行到哪裡因為這個事情看起來8月發生然後11月份你們自己新聞稿披露那上個禮拜應該是林楚茵委員在"},{"start":4525.569,"end":4552.257,"text":"委員會也問過你們,你們說一個禮拜之內要給他答覆嘛,那現在到底你們調查的結果,然後跟你們透過新聞稿說你們判決書有流出,那你們通報的這些單位呢,要求你們做改變的內容,所以現在這個報告調查的資料要有送到我們法制委員會來了嗎?會送過來。什麼時候要送?會,會釐清之後會盡快送過來。多久啊?"},{"start":4553.617,"end":4573.465,"text":"因為會期要結束了,本週可以送來嗎?因為看起來你們13號新聞稿,然後21號又新聞稿,然後23號是林楚茵委員質詢嘛,那今天司法院也來報告,也做了很多的這個相關善後的處理,所以是不是可以真的在這個本週"},{"start":4574.605,"end":4575.226,"text":"議員會提出書面的報告。"},{"start":4590.936,"end":4616.114,"text":"你們要什麼時候可以送來?因為你們已經答應林楚茵委員了。那我們今天再質詢,看起來我們秘書長並沒有得到你更多的資訊。就本週會提出書面報告。本週提到這個司法法制委會來?對,會提出。那希望不要再發生了,因為很多在網路上大家可以看到,人家提供出來的資料確實包括相關內文,這裡當然是用塗黑的方式,但基本上就是有外泄,這個是大家對於"},{"start":4616.57,"end":4617.471,"text":"閱讀委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":4632.621,"end":4633.362,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":4650.481,"end":4677.251,"text":"這個有關於法律關係等等的部分會要變更啊然後等等所以呢他竟然有一個指示很有趣他說當事人我們的書記官會打電話聯繫你告訴你後續要怎麼做然後他並沒有批示審理這個審理單等等的方式那這樣子我們的人評會大概就做了一些警示的這個警告處分你覺得這個法官在目前這個狀況裡面這個當然是人民去對於這個法官不適任的一個申訴審理"},{"start":4678.547,"end":4704.355,"text":"那結果是警告處分而已,你覺得這個警告處分對於當事人權益來講是合宜的嗎?我講的當事人是訴訟當事人,不是這位法官喔。因為這個當時法官評鑑委員是建議送人審會來評議啦。對。那人審會他有一定的法定指數啊。對。那是經過...所以你覺得這個是適合的處分?"},{"start":4706.499,"end":4727.465,"text":"那這個是人審會他的一個決議你對不適任法官有沒有具體客觀的標準比如說這個在人審會裡面有記過警告然後他三四年前有個案件也是被你們的這個人評會有做過一些對他的這個糾正等等的那他也是常常被人家這個叫做申訴的對象所以您覺得這個"},{"start":4728.525,"end":4743.044,"text":"一個是不適合法官的審理標準,有沒有事實應該再檢討的部分。第二個,這個人憑會做完警告處分,可是對於當事人他的權益受損,我們在司法院裡面有任何可以協助的方式嗎?"},{"start":4745.563,"end":4768.339,"text":"那在一般的法官的一個守則他有法官倫理規範會就法官的行為來哪些適合不適合會加一定規範可是像這個明顯是SOP本身就有輸漏啊然後他自己又離開這個審庭之後又沒有交接所以當事人權益大大受損你們可能是基於這樣子才罪他"},{"start":4769.472,"end":4792.777,"text":"給他口頭告誡還沒有任何的這個記過懲處所以你覺得這個是不是應該再進行了解雖然你們是合意制的人審會但是只有給他口頭告誡而且這個當事人的權益到現在已經訴訟的權益都過了那之後要再重審還要再花律師費還要花裁判費各種費用你覺得當事人的權益要怎麼補救"},{"start":4794.554,"end":4820.581,"text":"那當然這個在個案方面如何善後,那個案應該會...什麼單位、什麼機制可以協助?如果你們的人審會只管法官的部分,他造成的傷害損失,這法官當事人不用賠嗎?不用協助嗎?因為個案實際上的如何處理,那或者是當事人有什麼主張啊,那這個是...你會去了解嗎?"},{"start":4821.041,"end":4845.918,"text":"我希望秘書長您去了解好不好因為如果這個當事法官他自己做完的事情發生了一些損害他都沒有責任他只有受一個口頭告誡繼續當法官你看到人家看他在庭上講話人家還沒有開始講他就講說我們講法律你們不懂的話嘴巴閉起來所以很多人對於法官真的是有時候這個敢怒不敢言因為得罪法官就好像得罪了薄清天馬上判下來我就"},{"start":4846.118,"end":4846.178,"text":"閱讀委員會主席"},{"start":4872.153,"end":4898.324,"text":"他在一個律師節的會議上講了一句話引起律師界辯方的這個大反彈也是對於這個新制度上路還有很多這個力有未待必須要重新盤點競速來補時那他是講說在國民法官法的這個案件裡面辯方的表現一盤散沙您認同嗎?如果您是院長你會講這種話嗎?"},{"start":4899.936,"end":4921.433,"text":"辯護人有辯護人他一定功能一定功能我知道有一定功能然後在法庭你覺得院長不知道我們國民法官法剛上路這事情的配套跟做法上還有很多要去努力的他講這種話不是打擊很多辯方律師熱血律師的這個這個熱情嗎你會不會跟他講說你也失言了"},{"start":4922.312,"end":4933.882,"text":""},{"start":4934.4,"end":4961.805,"text":"法律人在做法的這個精進上面跟關係上面當然不是以個案來做這個判斷說大家是不是願意一起努力可是這幾件國民法官的案件判下來包括民間團體包括律師界其實很大的意見就在於說如果整個國民法官法它的兩個最大挑戰一個是現在沒有太多的律師願意接這樣辛苦的一個法律案件"},{"start":4962.352,"end":4976.56,"text":"那法服的這些大家支持的這個熱血律師他也覺得資源上條件上不具足他可能也很勉強的去接這都是對於新國民法官法上路造成的一些不足"},{"start":4977.113,"end":4977.533,"text":"議員會提出數面報告?"},{"start":5002.045,"end":5015.925,"text":"議員提出書面可以,但是你們要不要演繹相關的資源提供?議員提出書面可以,但是你們要不要演繹相關的資源提供?議員提出書面可以,但是你們要不要演繹相關的資源提供?議員提出書面可以,但是你們要不要演繹相關的資源提供?議員提出書面可以,但是你們要不要演繹相關的資源提供?議員提出書面可以,但是你們要不要演繹相關的資源提供?"},{"start":5020.069,"end":5042.302,"text":"但是通案是還是說針對接國民法官案件的他們會有這個不同的這個酬金這可不可以分類出來因為這個案件不多但是願意接他的做法跟程序你看都改的那麼嚴格對他來講是很大的挑戰有沒有可能分類就是說接國民法官案件的這種訴訟律師的這個酬金可以提高"},{"start":5043.25,"end":5065.262,"text":"議員,這段時間就這個問題我們都有……需要我們在委員會幫你下一個決議,請你們來努力看看嗎?我們會,假如委員有需要我們會請我們刑事廳提出這個書面報告。好。就這一段時間我們對國民法官這一部分……最起碼了吼,我的建議就是說,如果說有分類的話,這個接國民法官法的…"},{"start":5065.762,"end":5093.757,"text":"我們法官案件的這些法服的律師、仇軍可以跟其他一般的我們講法服的案件是不是有分級分類的制度那這個我想我在跟主席研究也許我們也用法制委員會來給你們一個依據來努力好不好我們會請我們刑事廳還有司法行政廳會提出相關的事你們也要努力啦那我想我們也在這邊協助讓新制度上路不至於到最後都是負評甚至院長講重話"},{"start":5094.717,"end":5095.718,"text":"kiye 賴香蓮委員江永昌委員"},{"start":5111.908,"end":5136.926,"text":"就教於司法院秘書長,今天的審查條文當中會有拒絕證言權。我就先問一下,這個拒絕證言權到底它的關係要擴展到多少?最近有一個我們立法院也剛通過的,家庭暴力防治法。那你知道那個同性當中有沒有,在4至78號當中,它沒有直接去准用到民法969。"},{"start":5138.865,"end":5142.606,"text":"議員林楚茵等20人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5154.13,"end":5171.618,"text":"好,但是其實我們現在對同性婚姻的姻親不急於的,因為他就沒有准用民法,包括刑法的特定親屬犯,包括公文人員任務法,長官對特定親屬迴避,包括民事訴訟法法官迴避,包括外國人停留居留等等,包括"},{"start":5172.478,"end":5175.581,"text":"議員陳明文等19人擬具《刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5196.561,"end":5210.265,"text":""},{"start":5213.039,"end":5240.341,"text":"委員所提示的這個問題,我們會通盤來研議看怎麼處理。委員今天提出來,因為這個牽涉的層面還是有一定的...不是的,你可以講看法嘛。因為比方說有個父母親他被同性婚姻子女的伴侶要被傳喚去做證人的時候,立刻就遇到啦。他刑事訴訟法第180條這個。"},{"start":5243.571,"end":5267.424,"text":"所以我現在提出這個就一些這個實體法的如何解讀那在俗物上他會本於那個審判獨立他會就相關法條跟你講要法有明定啦不是審判獨立你法不明定你審判再怎麼獨立也沒用你以為我只講這一點喔後面一堆來了我跟你講來"},{"start":5269.185,"end":5289.474,"text":"刑法316條跟你講你這個職業你這是有信賴倫理的這也包括社會工人要繼續進行所以你不可以無故洩密當然如果你因為訴訟去洩密他可能會排除無故這裡面有10種人醫師、藥師、藥商、助產師、心理師、宗教師律師、辯護人、公證人、會計師以及那個業務的佐理人就是說在刑法316條這些人"},{"start":5298.012,"end":5320.162,"text":"社會就高度說你有職業信賴喔那結果我們在刑訴182條剛剛前面講的10種人只有8種你給他得拒絕證言漏了藥師跟心理師漏了藥師跟漏了藥商跟心理師今天要補一個心理師進來我完全同意啦你同不同意"},{"start":5326.388,"end":5350.249,"text":"在刑法當中對他的這個看重跟刑事訴訟法的得拒絕正言這有落差啦還是法務部?邊刑法一邊刑事訴訟法社會一直在進步啦那如何何時以來修法我覺得這是必要的社會一直在進步會不會司法院跟法務部進步的很慢"},{"start":5352.218,"end":5371.065,"text":"我們當然會盡量來配合時代的腳步。各位報告我們刑法上的守密義務要保護的法律跟我們刑訴法上的應拒絕可以得拒絕的證言它其實要保護的法律不一樣。刑訴法上它是真實發現所以因守密的人它的範圍比較大。"},{"start":5372.185,"end":5391.961,"text":"那哪些人這個詞子裡面哪些人在真實發現裡面他退讓只有刑訴要規範的所以理論上他有可能一致但不必然一致就在真實發現更必要的時候刑訴的領域裡面為了真實發現他要大於守密的義務這時候把一小部分人規範成得據解證我懂我懂"},{"start":5392.722,"end":5421.328,"text":"保障專業協助的那個當事人對不對他要維護其隱私嘛資訊自主權還有一個就是保障這個業務者要有信賴關係嘛考量那個追溯犯罪的公益之間的為難還有考量公眾利益這些職業他們都必須有社會功能繼續下去不管這幾種你今天心理師再加進來的話那就等於再加一個藥商他就一致了啦但問題解決了嗎還沒有我告訴你你在這裡面當中沒有護理人員捏"},{"start":5423.261,"end":5444.871,"text":"醫師是有喔!在刑法316跟刑訴182當中,醫師是有喔!那我問你護理人員為什麼沒有?護理人員的任務啊,工作啊,來!他的四個當中,健康問題評估、預防保健、護理指導,他有一個叫做醫主,醫療輔助行為。他有醫療輔助行為,醫師有!那你護理人員不用嗎?"},{"start":5446.267,"end":5461.476,"text":"議事有,護理人員不用嗎?我要問你剛剛不敢講的,要恢復哪一種法義?對不對?追求真實的這個公義,或者是信賴,或者是社會功能等等。議事有的,護理人員也有依主之行為,他要處理喔。護理人員要不要進來?有沒有思考過?我繼續講喔。來。一旦護理人員進來,我跟你講喔,哇,你要知道餒,職人治療師也有依主餒。"},{"start":5474.513,"end":5502.996,"text":"而其他有很多護理治療師也有遺囑,呼吸治療師也有遺囑,醫師檢驗師也有遺囑,這些要不要進來?但我告訴你,你如果覺得護理人員也該進來的,那我剛講那些人員你也要考慮一定要進來的時候,我再告訴你範圍更大了,因為不只醫師法、藥師法、護理人員法、律師法、公正法、快遞司法、心理司法,"},{"start":5504.301,"end":5524.298,"text":"有說你如果洩密我就直接在你的法律處罰你還包括跟你講社會工作司法、遙體技術司法、醫事釋放司法、營養司法、燕光能源法、記帳司法、不動產經濟管理條例、自殺防止犯罪、被害人權益保障法這當中都有寫你就不可以去把"},{"start":5525.885,"end":5529.068,"text":"此外,刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。此外,刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":5544.842,"end":5565.771,"text":"當我們在刑法當中有去處罰有關於宗教師,在我們刑訴當中的拒絕證言當中也有包括宗教師,那我問你關乎志工,教誨志工,他們跟那個人的接觸有沒有,甚至有時候還超越宗教師你知道嗎?要不要給他得拒絕證言?"},{"start":5568.186,"end":5596.25,"text":"好,也許你們沒辦法給我答案,但我就整理完了。我就,我有盤點了,現在就跟你們分享,看怎麼思考。那,剛剛有在法律講說,他的職業,那個職業當中,都有這一種,洩不洩密信賴保護職業倫理的這種當中。外面在一層更大的,在外國立法裡有的。好,我現在再放到外國立法裡有的喔。"},{"start":5598.191,"end":5626.886,"text":"第一個德國阿德國專業代理人稅務代理人日本的代書都有納入齁我再加上這一條外國也有再加上你知道嗎在台灣過去一直被討論的叫做記者記者符合公共利益而揭弊那他他也要保護他的訊息來源或怎麼樣的阿記者要不要給他得拒絕證言"},{"start":5634.295,"end":5658.129,"text":"這些應該就是社會在進化了,如何何時以修法,這個還是很重要的。討論非常久,我如果去跟你翻過去在立法院或者過去在學界、法界曾經幾年以前有討論的總覽表,你會說社會在進步,當然在進步啊,但你們如果原地踏步你們是退步啊,相對的嘛。還不只這樣欸,再給你講一個。"},{"start":5662.254,"end":5688.676,"text":"現在你為了不管是當事人隱私資訊還是在這個職業我從事這個職業或者公務員上的這個因守之秘密或者職業上的倫理信賴保護點點點但是還包括親屬但是有一個部分是怎麼樣你知道嗎這一個你本來叫做他是證人的他可以拒絕證言權得拒絕證言權出金本人不允許什麼什麼的問題來了"},{"start":5691.696,"end":5691.716,"text":"閱讀委員"},{"start":5704.226,"end":5731.984,"text":"那坦白講你如果是刑事訴訟法一三四條這公務員持有的職務上因守秘密者在未得所屬監督的機關允許的時候是不得扣押之後這保障了還有總統總統的得拒絕證言權有沒有總統也可以喔那個發言內他有拒絕提交證物喔這是四字第六二七號喔總統也可以喔不能給我扣東西喔但是我剛講的得拒絕證言權又不是只有這幾類"},{"start":5734.346,"end":5750.973,"text":"其他幾類勒?日本對於業務上委託保管持有之他的秘密是向之誤評者。就是說剛剛我們點的那些師什麼師什麼師什麼師得拒絕扣押因為他就怕"},{"start":5752.275,"end":5777.692,"text":"我得拒絕證言,結果你來給我強制扣押、搜索,那你就架空我啦。以後檢察官、法官有說沒關係你可以拒絕啊,你可以拒絕啊,我先告知你。我還沒有討論到應告知、有義務告知那個得拒絕還是未義務告知的,我還沒討論到那一塊。現在問題是這一塊就說,欸,好啦好啦你拒絕啊,我就明天去搜索你啊,會扣押你證物啊。"},{"start":5780.154,"end":5799.17,"text":"德國不止職業上的拒絕證言權,他那職業上助手、連助手對被告所信託之報告跟涉及拒絕證言權的記載不能扣押。我也知道,這個如果要來立法進入體制,"},{"start":5803.393,"end":5829.453,"text":"從剛剛就是人的範圍到現在事物到底要長到多大才是正確或進步又是符合價值還是法制可以啟動我也知道很困難但是就盤點下來一堆問題還不小這麼多年來的討論都沒有看到甚至110年4月14號接避者保護法公聽會一堆律師就已經有澄清了"},{"start":5830.7,"end":5847.907,"text":"在我們這個刑法當中有處罰律師,在我們的刑事訴訟法當中律師有那個的拒絕證言的權利。好啦,那雖然是這樣子一個配套,阿你可不可以搜索那個律師事務所?好,我不要回答。"},{"start":5850.133,"end":5870.852,"text":"跟委員報告,事實上這個有關律師事務的搜索,剛才委員提到的拒絕證言權,它尚未概念的不知證脊椎。事實上我們在大法官在今年112年的憲判之九號,已經就這個表示過意見了。就被告或者潛在性被告,他有可能會危及他的不知證脊椎或拒絕證言,在某個範圍內限縮或扣押。"},{"start":5872.093,"end":5896.992,"text":"此部分大法官已經有表示過意見了。的確如同委員講的,它在某一個範圍內有可能會損害到不知正己罪或跟尚未概念的疑慮。所以我覺得到底要不要說司法院版,怎麼樣來寫出來?還是我們立法院要怎麼提?大家要有一個決定。我們國家法律全靠大法官事先。"},{"start":5899.005,"end":5915.28,"text":"你懂我意思?那如果修法可以完成去處理爭議的事情,讓法律明定,那不是都靠釋憲嗎?那很簡單,我從今之後我們立法工作就不要再做了啊。司法院也都不用檢討啊,你們每次什麼優先法案什麼法案對不對?不用嗎?"},{"start":5916.201,"end":5934.532,"text":"等時都等大法官社會出問題了對法律有疑慮了大法官解釋不是這樣嘛我剛提的不都是國外人家怎麼立法一些不符合台灣國情或不符合國民的法律感情但是但是我們總可以找到我們要的啊好剛剛從人的範圍物證的範圍他回過頭來看今天今天我要修法真的要好好討論耶"},{"start":5947.501,"end":5973.439,"text":"請問今天這個得拒絕我們知道基於發現真實的公義信其實有誠實作證的義務有誠實作證的義務但是我知道讓那些人有得拒絕證言權但是我們有另外一個配套什麼配套叫做當你前面如果沒有拒絕證言的時候後面就不得拒絕"},{"start":5974.329,"end":5996.887,"text":"對吧?我講這個概念,明文長應該很清楚吧?要不要講講看這是什麼概念?你前面,你一個證人,你前面沒有拒絕。檢察官偵查的時候你就要陳述,審判當中有講的你就講了。後面你就不得再行使拒絕證言權,後面就不能夠再行使。這觀念你要不要講講看?這是什麼?"},{"start":6001.264,"end":6022.805,"text":"委員的這些提示都很重要,那有些涉及到這個相關法,有一些是以後如何修法,我們當然會合乎時宜積極的來修法。有一些就是說在現有法律那麼如何去解讀,這個可能實務上他"},{"start":6032.755,"end":6041.844,"text":"議員 現在就是各界的見解以及最高法院跟地方法院以及很多的判決的案子當中就是矛盾交錯。"},{"start":6043.424,"end":6043.864,"text":"則不知所從"},{"start":6057.383,"end":6058.764,"text":"現在你們把它擴張到在偵查時候啊"},{"start":6086.853,"end":6104.855,"text":"檢察官對檢察官所作之徵訴也放大,就是說你前面檢察官你對他所為之徵訴,那個部分如果你沒有拒絕說我不作證,後面也跟著不行。"},{"start":6107.317,"end":6132.876,"text":"這裡就產生兩大問題了一個問題是奇怪了很多學界講說刑事訴訟法一八一之一並沒有跟你講說那個什麼前面檢察官在問了的時候你就已經有這樣的問題你要知道你要趕快先說我沒有辦法做人先拒絕證言法律的條文沒有啊我們直接用類推的會不會是違法"},{"start":6133.888,"end":6148.671,"text":"我們直接用類推會不會是違法但是如果你不讓他類推的話你前面做的這個如果拿來做為證據到最後反結論的時候你又不能夠他又拒絕證言你又不能夠上來那你就不能夠交叉辯證這個問題這麼久了這不是什麼社會在進步不進步是存在你們司法體系當中這麼久這麼久這麼久的一個問題沒有處理"},{"start":6164.836,"end":6186.522,"text":"這裏面還有包括很細啊在從179到180、181、182這裏面有耶有義務告知你說你有得拒絕證言而為義務告知後面的這個到底能不能用有沒有證據能力、證據力然後到時候還有沒有享有得拒絕證言權還有包括我不用跟你說你有拒絕證言權的權利"},{"start":6188.851,"end":6207.948,"text":"但是,到時候法院上用不用,然後你還想不想有的拒絕政研權,還包括偵查中的未拒絕、審判中的未拒絕,沒有拒絕喔!拒喔!阿到底行不行程?後面排山打海是一堆喔!"},{"start":6213.433,"end":6234.197,"text":"所以,我問了非常多,但坦白講,能問這麼多表示,哇,這問題一羅框啊。像海洋一樣,又遼闊又深的,通通都在這裡面啊。還有一半還沒問啊。委員這些問題都很深入啊。都存在。"},{"start":6234.844,"end":6258.516,"text":"而且都有法理矛盾都有實質執行衝突我們會積極研議看如何來處理這講積極研議你可以每一屆每一年每個會期每個委員會都積極處理我覺得其實我問很多種司法問題希望你們還是盡量拿出決心法務部要打一下看會不會打得比司法院秘書長多一點"},{"start":6262.372,"end":6277.298,"text":"因為這個拒絕證言前它是涉及到它的不知正極罪的很尚未的概念理論上我們整個疾訴要保障的非常周延那這的確有些規範如同委員提的得拒絕證言是不是在每個階段都可以主張還是說偵查審判"},{"start":6278.658,"end":6280.139,"text":"在不同的案子當中,哇!"},{"start":6306.852,"end":6325.182,"text":"此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外"},{"start":6327.64,"end":6353.993,"text":"但我覺得這些都應該要去處理你不能說難道台灣不明文規定不立法明確然後我們就這樣走然後其他國家難道也是如此嗎沒有啊看到很多其他國家好像制定的還還蠻仔細的也許國情不同但是該怎麼樣參考去進步時代社會在進步司法法制也跟著在進步總是要努力我有這樣的一個期望以上謝謝"},{"start":6366.178,"end":6388.042,"text":"好,謝謝江永昌委員。好,接下來我們請湯惠貞召委。好,謝謝主席。"},{"start":6395.2,"end":6421.005,"text":"昨天的報紙在寫說我們檢察官痛斥有十位軍官違背身為軍人最基本的忠誠義務因為個人利益虛心竟向中共效忠進行法院從重量刑因為過去侵犯所以"},{"start":6421.954,"end":6422.414,"text":"adequ."},{"start":6422.414,"end":6424.034,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":6451.093,"end":6466.365,"text":"這個案子是從我們國防部政戰系統來接獲檢舉的。那這個案子是什麼時候檢舉的?這個系部的我再跟委員來做一個報告。"},{"start":6467.749,"end":6495.016,"text":"不知道?是。OK。好。那這個案子發生以後,那我們國防部不曉得政戰系統是不是有繼續在指導所有的國軍在教育這個國家認同是哪一個國家才是我們的國家。當然連我們的立委都有在講,祖國在中國啦。那我們認為"},{"start":6496.687,"end":6496.927,"text":"閱讀《刑事訴訟法》"},{"start":6517.604,"end":6530.148,"text":"國防部保防教育不斷利用各種實際在做教育的部分,對所有的官兵都是如此。在最近我們也利用舉光園地有邀請最高檢察總長"},{"start":6534.71,"end":6535.03,"text":"議員林楚茵"},{"start":6554.787,"end":6554.887,"text":"議員陳明文"},{"start":6568.979,"end":6569.159,"text":"主席"},{"start":6588.402,"end":6589.683,"text":"議員請教育部黃副司長,從小對於教育很重要。"},{"start":6605.97,"end":6606.551,"text":"adequ."},{"start":6606.551,"end":6608.713,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":6625.832,"end":6628.233,"text":"閱讀員李慧琼提到的我們對於一些媒體試讀以及一些"},{"start":6647.66,"end":6648.26,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":6665.451,"end":6671.835,"text":"關於錯假訊息的這個推動的措施那其實部裡有成立一個媒體素養的這個推動的小組我們希望就是說不管是在我們的終身司、資科司以及各個教育階段我們來強化相關對於這些錯假訊息的認識跟了解那這部分我們也結合我們的國防教育的推動那這個其實也是國防教育的一環對於資訊素養的取得以及錯假訊息的這個掌握我們都"},{"start":6694.23,"end":6694.55,"text":"閱讀《司法院》"},{"start":6725.021,"end":6742.112,"text":"這一部分我們會診之後會向委員這邊提出書面的報告就是最近的一些判決情形都有在會診最近報紙打開了都覺得觸目心驚因為現在宮廟活動它統促黨都會把布條掛上去"},{"start":6752.216,"end":6776.857,"text":"那其實我們在公部門上班在民政局工作的時候就已經發現我們有里長是統促黨他就標出來我就是統促黨的里長那我想這個已經讓大家覺得說這個好像明目張膽或者很明眼的在講這件事情"},{"start":6779.7,"end":6794.38,"text":"為什麼這個國家對於這個認同是哪裡出問題當然我們知道修憲的條文上面都有寫說未來這個要為了未來統一的需要"},{"start":6795.862,"end":6821.031,"text":"而為因應國家統一前的需要而徵修的條文在開宗明義這樣寫著所以我想對國家認同這個未來我們的國家統一如何統一台灣統一中國嗎好像是緣不求與不太可能的事情而且我們也不喜歡過那種生活或者他那種制度"},{"start":6821.431,"end":6828.737,"text":"閱讀這些新聞是觸目心驚,所以我想這個部分有點會錯亂。我在第三屆我是擔任國大代表修憲,在後來工人行國大的時候,就發現這樣的一個問題。"},{"start":6847.363,"end":6847.623,"text":"adequ."},{"start":6847.623,"end":6848.523,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6870.953,"end":6871.693,"text":"閱讀《刑事訴訟法部分條文》案。"},{"start":6898.508,"end":6916.522,"text":"跟委員報告,相關有沒有涉及這個借選的案件,那事實上我們各地檢署都有在偵辦。已經在偵辦,像昨天橋頭地檢署有發布個新聞嘛,他也是有一個境外借選的,可能涉及境外借選案件,他有進行相關的偵查動作,他也發布新聞稿。"},{"start":6917.659,"end":6917.859,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":6932.91,"end":6950.111,"text":""},{"start":6951.807,"end":6979.306,"text":"當然他要符合我們選罷法的規定他有一定的構成要件比如說他要尋求企業交付這個賄賂或不正利益這第一個第二個他之間是不是有對價的關係啦這對價關係這樣檢察官都要證明但沒有錯這個發生在境外對檢察官來講他並不是不可以偵辦只是收證上他也許會比發生在境內稍微困難一點點但是偵查犯罪就本來是檢察官的天職嘛他也許比較困難但是還是可以偵辦這是沒有問題的"},{"start":6981.067,"end":7002.619,"text":""},{"start":7003.88,"end":7029.396,"text":"閱讀者們都被招待,甚至客家團體通通上路。我想整個我們的LINE群組裡面幾乎充斥了中共那邊過來的一些訊息。所以這個情形變得非常嚴重,對於我們未來台灣的安全非常嚴重。那將來怎麼樣去面對萬一有"},{"start":7030.777,"end":7031.637,"text":"adequ."},{"start":7031.637,"end":7031.657,"text":"吳秘書長"},{"start":7050.964,"end":7051.124,"text":"議員,在署務上,"},{"start":7075.444,"end":7093.317,"text":"如何合乎時宜來做判決。這個是很重要的。如何合乎時宜。我想我們檢方、檢察官都已經要求用重刑。不用重刑不足立位性。我相信這個"},{"start":7095.379,"end":7111.641,"text":"閱檢一定要這樣定一下這樣子一個重刑自亂是用重點沒有辦法這個會影響到國家安全的事情檢方已經有這樣的一個想法概念了我相信院方也一定要有這樣的一個看法好"},{"start":7112.122,"end":7137.246,"text":"另外在針對這個假訊息的問題那前幾位我們的委員一直在講說那個AI或DEFECT那種把這個人臉辨識或者是說在做這種這個假的這個一個影像來混淆大家的視聽那現在紐約時報有在講中國對台灣的侵略企圖"},{"start":7141.587,"end":7141.847,"text":"閱讀者們的意見"},{"start":7160.661,"end":7188.576,"text":"像我們蔡總統都有一個蔡總統副總統都有個假訊息了那個假的影片他說政府參與加密貨幣投資軟件因為從軟件來發現這是中國的用語那刑事局因而判斷該影片是經由深微技術來生成他認為這是中國方面製作的那剛才一直在問說趕快還其清白"},{"start":7188.996,"end":7212.315,"text":"那當然就是說這個應該我們臺灣的技術應該不是什麼大問題應該也有機會把它真假把它辨識清楚那剛剛想說其實是真的就假不了是假的就真不了那我們是希望那個技術上有沒有問題在鑑識方面有沒有問題那個檢查黃次長你這邊有沒有問題"},{"start":7216.438,"end":7242.926,"text":"跟委員報告,道高一尺道高一丈就是說隨著科技的進步我們偵察機關的鑑識技巧要更加的進步啦事實上我們在台高檢已經成立相關的鑑識中心各地檢署也有自己的鑑識中心那也不斷的擴充或是強化我們相關有關於鑑識身為方面的技術那我們的專業機構比如說我們調查局或我們刑事檢查局他們"},{"start":7243.806,"end":7244.486,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文宣告"},{"start":7269.518,"end":7269.858,"text":"adequ."},{"start":7269.858,"end":7272.199,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":7292.546,"end":7294.888,"text":"閱讀委員林楚茵等20人擬具 «刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7321.71,"end":7321.73,"text":"閱讀委員會長"},{"start":7343.08,"end":7366.233,"text":"netesa 官一直還不能發裁定當我們這個已經扣住的那個那個加密貨幣的那個受害者的錢了拿不回來我們很擔心他加密貨幣的那個保管時效一過他大概就被這個加害人會就是這個行為人取走所以我想這個次長幫我們在"},{"start":7368.214,"end":7368.594,"text":"閱讀《刑事訴訟法》"},{"start":7388.388,"end":7388.688,"text":"adequ."},{"start":7388.688,"end":7391.21,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案 刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":7417.363,"end":7419.584,"text":"一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查"},{"start":7434.808,"end":7436.529,"text":"閱讀《刑事訴訟法第四十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7460.962,"end":7486.109,"text":"那麼我們也希望作為下一個案子的一個案例能夠有方法來把錢留住,不要讓這些犯罪行為人的領走,就減少犯罪行為人這個可乘之機啦。我想這個次長幫忙。好,謝謝湯惠珍委員,因為我們有重要的貴賓來訪,也請我們召集人回座來做慎重的介紹。"},{"start":7500.421,"end":7517.749,"text":"謝謝。現在我們有貴賓。我們現在先介紹我們旁聽席上有參訪的貴賓。那是馬來西亞雪蘭俄州議會的參訪代表。我們第一位是我們的馬來西亞雪蘭州議會議長,劉永山劉議長。歡迎歡迎。謝謝。"},{"start":7525.799,"end":7534.782,"text":"第二位是馬來西亞雪蘭兒吉隆坡留台同學會吳寶強會長。歡迎兩位陪同到場的是羅美玲委員,內政委員會召委。"},{"start":7550.589,"end":7559.497,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":7561.256,"end":7586.231,"text":"議員 張綺露委員張綺露委員未到我們下一位請吳怡丁委員發言謝主席我想要請教的是那個司法院的秘書長今天今天的說法是跟保密相關那我問的問題也是跟保密相關不過有一點不一樣我們看到是其實前幾天的媒體也有報導"},{"start":7587.492,"end":7599.366,"text":"我們性侵受害者其實有超過一半是未成年這其實是相當可怕的數字那2020年裏面我們性侵害通報案件8401位受害人裏面"},{"start":7603.05,"end":7607.273,"text":"二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具 «刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案»案。"},{"start":7618.763,"end":7619.283,"text":"adequ."},{"start":7619.283,"end":7640.069,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案的69條,為了保障這些受害的未成年,等於是不揭露他的身份,我們其實是有規定媒體對下列兒童及少年不得報導或記載其姓名,重點是獲足其他主意辨識身份的資訊。"},{"start":7641.329,"end":7642.39,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文宣告"},{"start":7655.253,"end":7658.454,"text":"議員林楚茵等20人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7684.543,"end":7688.045,"text":"閱讀《刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":7712.097,"end":7713.638,"text":"閱讀者 李慧琼"},{"start":7741.002,"end":7760.235,"text":"這個跟委員說明這個就在前行之間因為在被害人尤其像這些未成年的被害人我們當然要避免他再受到惡度傷害那像判決書這種諸性如何公開"},{"start":7762.608,"end":7774.094,"text":"在這種程式的問題我們當然也是要考量說這種判決書假如整個判決書假如經過判決書的揭露之後然後會變成"},{"start":7776.203,"end":7803.842,"text":"獄中被害的未成年人還有二度傷害,那他這個順位還是最重要的順位?其實老實說,秘書長我有一個具體的建議,我們很難衡量,就是因為一來我們不希望被害人二度受傷,二來其實我們不希望這個加害人又去害了別人,所以我們是不是可以統計一下,就是我們這些性侵的再犯,"},{"start":7805.273,"end":7830.072,"text":"他因為在犯造成的受害人的人數有多少?相較於他是因為出犯所造成的受害人有多少?其實我們這個應該是說每一個受害人他的傷害不是能這樣量化的但是至少我們有一個概念就是我們不能"},{"start":7832.381,"end":7832.541,"text":"議員林楚茵"},{"start":7856.71,"end":7861.796,"text":"委員這個建議我們回去會來研議看做一個統計"},{"start":7864.557,"end":7886.8,"text":"那因為像委員剛剛所提到這個真的也是很重要啦,如何讓這些加害人,那讓大家知道避免其他人又被害,這個也是一個重要層次。律師長很簡單,這些資訊我相信你們都有,只是需要做一下統計,就是麻煩再讓我們辦公室或委員會知道一下好嗎?"},{"start":7889.462,"end":7909.931,"text":"請教法務部這邊。市長,其實我們辦公室有一個陳情案。我想這是現在詐欺很多,很多人都遇到的。我們這個陳情人他的臉書帳號被盜用了。他被盜用之後,變成這個詐騙集團用了這個真人的帳號去"},{"start":7912.819,"end":7913.419,"text":"adequ."},{"start":7913.419,"end":7913.92,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7932.61,"end":7952.477,"text":"我們其實還跟訴法部還有跟臉書在臺灣的在臺北開了一個實體的會議可是最後的結論是他們Meta就是臉書他們只針對名人的帳號處理或是政府政黨政治人物相關的帳號一般的人民眾如果他的帳號被偷了"},{"start":7953.82,"end":7954.42,"text":"adequ."},{"start":7954.42,"end":7956.021,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文宣告"},{"start":7972.56,"end":7993.759,"text":"我們法務部這邊有沒有相關的案件或是說你們有沒有解決的方法或是說你們有發現到底癥結點在哪裡我們可以跟書法部也好跟臉書也好來一起解決這件事情因為這絕對不是個案這絕對是許多人遇到的案子情況"},{"start":7995.015,"end":8017.091,"text":"各位報告事實上就類似的案件那我們台高檢署跟Meta、Facebook還有那個Google也好其實也有做過很多次的協商啦就包括這個調取資料還有下架的機制事實上已經有一個機制存在既有機制存在那關帳戶呢?如果被盜帳戶就是下架下架類似的規定當然有一個機制存在當然"},{"start":8018.032,"end":8041.538,"text":"媒體它本身有自己的政策嘛,對不對?它什麼案件可以允許你下架,什麼樣的機制,它有一定的規範。那這個具體個案符不符合它的規定,我們要看個案來決定。所以如果你們那邊是要找誰?如果民眾...當然檢察官偵辦中,他就可以透過這個機制跟媒體跟Google做一些...我們台高檢有一個窗口去做相關的處理。"},{"start":8043.493,"end":8058.634,"text":"檢察官會透過台高檢署。我知道,我舉個例子好了。其實像一般我們如果懷疑那個帳戶是有問題的帳戶,那我們其實一般的,真的現在是警察局傳證一下就警示帳戶,銀行就把帳戶凍結了。"},{"start":8060.336,"end":8073.918,"text":"那就像你講的必須是檢察官他去看這個案子到底有沒有問題我們知道現在檢察官的loading很重那再加上他的時間也會有點長我們是不是可以想出一個"},{"start":8075.324,"end":8075.965,"text":"議員林楚茵等20人擬具"},{"start":8098.513,"end":8098.633,"text":"閱讀者們的評論"},{"start":8119.586,"end":8119.606,"text":"閱议長"},{"start":8134.525,"end":8135.486,"text":"閱讀《刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":8160.638,"end":8172.269,"text":"所以在各方的努力之下,事實上它機制是存在的,要看個案。所以你們有一個,我們其實只是想讓民眾知道,當你有這樣子的情況的時候,到底去找誰?"},{"start":8173.737,"end":8196.556,"text":"那你剛剛有提到臺高檢有一個窗口。對,那臺高檢那是個個案。當然臺高檢的窗口他是我們內部檢察官在偵辦案件的時候透過臺高檢的窗口跟META跟相關的公司來聯繫。他是內部偵辦案件的內部的窗口。所以民眾還是要透過檢察官?民眾他如果說有涉及犯罪的話,他當然就檢察官會偵辦嘛。那當然可以希望跟檢察官提出請求。"},{"start":8198.919,"end":8209.535,"text":"市長你應該知道,其實是涉及犯罪這件事情,它的定義就要花一些時間。但是賬戶被盜用這件事情,去確認這件事情的時間相對的短。"},{"start":8214.842,"end":8241.641,"text":"所以我剛剛有跟委員報告說案件到檢察官的畢竟比較末端時間比較久了所以我剛剛講說有些有些社群平台他自主性的就他企業上的企業自主性他就有些下架的規定當然又有一些檢舉的機制啦他就有一些下架的規定如果不是透過他自主性的下架我們一些行政機關我們有一些打仗的平台他還沒案件沒到進到記者組的時候一些行政平台他跟Meta他也有一些下架的一些相關的聯繫機制啊"},{"start":8242.702,"end":8252.979,"text":"我剛才講的是到檢察官這邊已經是有刑案了。所以你建議有哪一些平台有下架機制?像我們檢方我們跟Meta我剛才講說檢方的偵辦者跟Meta、Google、Facebook我們都有些聯繫。"},{"start":8255.356,"end":8255.776,"text":"主席"},{"start":8277.261,"end":8301.527,"text":"觀眾謙虛"},{"start":8303.323,"end":8305.024,"text":"委員陳姜華委員法言法務部次長請問我們現在針對環境犯罪的緩起訴金現在額度"},{"start":8325.376,"end":8325.976,"text":"adequ."},{"start":8325.976,"end":8326.776,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文有多少條?"},{"start":8349.264,"end":8349.665,"text":"現在就是說緩起訴"},{"start":8366.927,"end":8366.947,"text":"閱讀委員會長"},{"start":8382.592,"end":8409.022,"text":"各位報告,這涉及到他還起訴處分的命令他是怎麼下?他的第八管的必要命令有沒有附這一個條件?各位,這個案上檢察官他下的命令不一樣會決定那可不可以我們法制化之後呢讓這種環境犯罪如果要給他還起訴要有一個命令就是一定要清除要負責清除才能夠"},{"start":8409.807,"end":8412.43,"text":"二）委員這重要嗎?但是如果沒有的話這個犯罪行為人他"},{"start":8424.841,"end":8425.482,"text":"議員林楚茵"},{"start":8446.462,"end":8446.482,"text":"閱议長"},{"start":8467.225,"end":8468.105,"text":"mentioned."},{"start":8468.105,"end":8469.306,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8484.09,"end":8502.768,"text":" bicyn 各位知道嗎?所以你們如果不把制度定好,不做要求他清楚,你才給他還起訴,你等於是縱容他出逃,然後又讓他繼續犯罪啊。 bicyn 各位報告,我們還起訴處分的規範,他就那八款的條件,假官他可以試個案去做決定,而不是限定他做怎樣的決定。"},{"start":8506.912,"end":8528.898,"text":"那你告訴我說讓檢察官各自去決定那就是沒有解決問題反而讓污染的問題更嚴重。各位不會喔事實上我們現在很多具體個案檢察官就這環境犯罪他所說的具體的命令事實上已經做了很多原來也許該行政機關該做的事。那你告訴我為什麼環境污染越來越嚴重你們法務部已經很盡力了都做得很完美了是嗎?"},{"start":8529.318,"end":8554.056,"text":"所以不可以這樣啊 我告訴你 我們環境變異點 污染點越來越多啊表示如果還起訴 縱容他們回去再繼續犯罪 這個部分一定要去思考啊污染土壤 污染地下水 污染地表水 這個很嚴重 我們要喝這個水 我們要吃東西啊 土壤要種植啊 所以這個法制化很重要啊"},{"start":8554.841,"end":8566.522,"text":"觀眾朋友報告我覺得我們還起訴制度不是縱容他反而因此抑制他反對。我沒有在批評什麼我只是告訴你們問題很嚴重一定要法制化那你聽不進去我也沒辦法"},{"start":8569.373,"end":8588.728,"text":"秘書長,上次的質詢提出我們現在因為重測還有地基圖的數值化數值化因為我們的規定是必須要去有依據包括我現在畫面上我們看到的應該要依據"},{"start":8590.905,"end":8609.354,"text":"閱讀委員林楚茵等20人擬具:「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案案。閱讀委員林楚茵等20人擬具:「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案案。閱讀委員林楚茵等20人擬具:「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案案。閱讀委員林楚茵等20人擬具:「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條條文修正草案案。閱讀委員林楚茵等20人擬具:「刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8620.799,"end":8641.952,"text":"不過現在本席接到的部分一些陳情而且他們告訴本席就是很嚴重就是我們在省裡在法院或者是在採納第三公正單位目前就是國土策略中心這邊的證據的時候都依"},{"start":8646.397,"end":8646.777,"text":"adequ."},{"start":8646.777,"end":8649.338,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8662.243,"end":8667.766,"text":"閱讀《刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案》案。閱讀《刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":8685.52,"end":8687.963,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8705.163,"end":8733.866,"text":"再講一遍地政機關有隱瞞所以法院的判決是參採地政機關的證詞那這樣子的例子不是個案不是個案所以本席要告訴司法院要告訴我們所有的判決的這些法官你們一定要去追究前面是不是有實際見解的資料目前我們遇到的困難就是很多判決都是參採"},{"start":8735.691,"end":8735.711,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":8763.973,"end":8766.096,"text":" ﹐刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":8780.27,"end":8804.81,"text":"我們的判決一定必須去追究之前如果有見解的或者是有任何的這個證據不要只片面去採納地震或者是數字化或者是套圖或者是什麼這些造成的錯誤這樣秘書長同意或者是願意聽進去本席的苦衷嗎?"},{"start":8807.742,"end":8831.887,"text":"委員剛剛的提示我會請我們民視廳研議看如何處理好那本席也是希望民視廳能夠重視本席講的這個嚴重的事項因為很多人因為這樣子所以地界被移了房子被拆了甚至尋短自殺都有"},{"start":8832.367,"end":8832.687,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":8854.653,"end":8880.524,"text":"這個我會請民宿廳研議看如何處理。好,謝謝。好,謝謝召委。好,謝謝陳焦華委員。先做會議程序的宣告。上午會議時間繼續進行到議程所列事項均處理完畢為止。另外今日討論事項提案條文的宣讀時間約15分鐘,一併先做說明。好,下一位請林楚茵委員發言。"},{"start":8883.646,"end":8907.013,"text":"謝謝主席我也是先請秘書長秘書長今天自由時報還有烏龍判決、烏龍這個案件等等那當然是檢察署好像有相當的責任當然檢察署和那個"},{"start":8909.202,"end":8915.282,"text":"這個司法院應該都有共同都有責任那義務要去改正它今天的案子你們知道嗎?"},{"start":8917.481,"end":8943.393,"text":"因為早上要...因為早上要忙著...就是觀察樂界那個裁定...因為魚卵管轄結果我們還是把他送執行的。對啦。那導致後來法官二審的時候還是烏龍判決。也是烏龍判決。然後也造成三審的時候程序上的不恰當啊。所以這很荒謬。但我今天不是要講這個個案喔。"},{"start":8945.607,"end":8962.245,"text":"於2023年10月16日,士林地方法院法官蘇錦秀在法官論壇發文,他自己揭露了他擔任陪席法官的一個案件。已經經過何義廷三名法官共同評議以後,"},{"start":8963.746,"end":8988.521,"text":"庭長陳張榮卻拒絕在判決書簽名。違反民事訴訟法第二七條全項為判決執法官應於判決書上判決內簽名以及法院組織法第105條。他違反了這些規定不說還以懲處來威脅書記官說你不准公告判決主文。"},{"start":8990.142,"end":8997.515,"text":" ﹏導致宣判當日沒有辦法依法公告主文。這是今年十月上個月。這一個月"},{"start":8999.079,"end":9027.199,"text":"媒體報導最高行政法院審理案件時,最高行政法院自己發現,一審的臺北高等行政法院法官周泰德明明沒有參加言辭辯論,還可以參與審判違反了刑事訴訟法第188條有關法官非參與裁判基礎之辯論者不得參與審判的這個規定。陪席的法官彭康凡"},{"start":9029.201,"end":9033.97,"text":"則在言此辯論的筆錄當中簽名說是審判長,也明顯違法。老實說,我們真的這是瞠目雜舌啊。"},{"start":9041.874,"end":9066.63,"text":"然後呢11月14司法院人事處公布了人事審議委員會的決議針對新北地方法院民事庭李昭榮法官在審理過程中沒有向當事人說明何以停止訴訟程序後所產生的法律效果也沒有提醒書記官注意後續的聯繫導致當事人的案件被視為撤回起訴影響訴訟權益很大"},{"start":9075.823,"end":9093.893,"text":"2021年3月,苗栗地方法院法官周靜妮對當事人動私刑,要少年當庭自我掌嘴,下跪,還涉及到欺負社工,揚言要在法院放火。"},{"start":9095.339,"end":9109.984,"text":"周靜妮還長時間沒有審案,框值答框值小時是314小時,導致當事人訴訟關心人拼命打電話到法院催辦。去年11、12月間就有14件當事人電詢案件進度,她去年12月28日家事未結案件達207件,"},{"start":9122.108,"end":9151.003,"text":"其中最嚴重的是保護令案件有五十五件。掐爆保護令是要即時處理的,他有五十五件都沒有即時處理。延遲案件進行而且影響當事人的權益。我們剛剛講說這個第一個案件就是所謂的蘇錦秀法官在論壇上發文的。這個陳章榮三個何毅廷三個法官都共同評議後了。"},{"start":9154.036,"end":9163.921,"text":"這個案子呢,你們也開了自律委員會。會議是用秘密進行的方式,沒有對外公開。最終的決議認定,庭長簽名爭議沒有為師。"},{"start":9169.5,"end":9184.347,"text":"啊,自立委員會關起門來,就沒有為師。但是大家都知道,心照不宣啦,裡面吵架吵什麼都可以,都外面的人都會知道。在討論的過程不是完全沒有爭議喔。"},{"start":9185.567,"end":9206.397,"text":"最終決議說沒有違釋但裡面是有爭議的一派是資深庭長啊認為評議尚未完成庭長並未違規而是學妹公然挑戰學長在講什麼啊另外一派的年輕法官包括曾經擔任庭長的邱姓受命法官他認為言詞辯論都終結了拜託"},{"start":9212.3,"end":9233.66,"text":"還、還、何怡婷還共同評議完了。受命陪席法官陳章榮本人都進行評議了。雖然有爭執也表決了。所以在他們三個人裡面投票邱書已經2、兩票2比1啦。2比1。所以當天已經完成評議了,並做成結論了。"},{"start":9235.982,"end":9257.457,"text":"他才回去撰寫這個判決,但是經過兩個禮拜以後,庭長不認帳,就可以冰得了。宣判當天拒絕在判決書上簽名,違反了法院組織法第105條。可是,欸,自律委員會說沒有為師,所以你叫人家不要詳細說話啦!"},{"start":9258.94,"end":9284.233,"text":"韓國瑜都會贏啦!雷波自己也在韓國瑜關起門來!資深的挺資深的!然後呢年輕的挺年輕的!就事論是到底有沒有完成啊!來!比斯汀你跟我說共同評議然後有不同意見有投票表決2比1做成結論請問這有沒有完成評議?向委員說明啦齁"},{"start":9287.56,"end":9291.883,"text":"就是有些像委員剛剛所說的這些有些他已經涉及到實體的問題了"},{"start":9316.261,"end":9331.799,"text":"他還可以威脅司機說你不能給我下台不能公告喔?就實際上...啊導致宣判當日也沒有依法公告這個宣判的那個主文呢?就是這些他事實是如何已經涉及到...意思是你喔你剛才這個不敢說啦我再說一個"},{"start":9335.063,"end":9347.819,"text":"法官的自省機制、圖據、形式檢討機制也沒有發揮主動的效能。我們2011年通過法官法在隔年制定了法官倫理規範和各級法院法官自律實施辦法明確的規範了法官的職務範圍、倫理守則"},{"start":9352.205,"end":9379.74,"text":"也針對不適任,重點是在這裡,制定了一套逃犯案監督的評鑑機制。然而這段2011年到現在,法官違反職務、濫用職權的行為這麼頻傳,我剛才講的都是近年。近期還包括法官開庭、態度不佳、性騷擾、職場霸凌,連基本的審理程序都不遵守。自律的評議結果,你們到最後自律委員會所有評議結果都是。"},{"start":9381.201,"end":9386.585,"text":"沒有違私,對於法官違反職務上的義務,大於執行職務或言行不檢等行為,法官法都有沒有規範?有規範嗎?"},{"start":9399.861,"end":9417.645,"text":"這個就恢復到規定,然後有些程式實體就個案如何認定的問題。任何認定到最後都不是送懲戒法庭,都把人審會、自律委員會,也不會送到評鑑委員會,連到自律委員會出來都沒有為師。"},{"start":9421.477,"end":9435.056,"text":"所以法官法明明就已經訂得很清楚有規範可以作為懲戒或監督法官的依據。法官法的第19條法官與其獨立審判不受影響之限度內還要受到職務監督。"},{"start":9437.372,"end":9464.341,"text":"你們職務監督還包括制止法官違法行使職權、糾正法官不當言行、還有督促法官依法迅速執行職務。那你們其實有行政權可以做這個職務監督欸。法官法第20條說你們國際的犯人一定當法官發生不當言行或違法行使職權時,都要善盡監督之責欸。"},{"start":9465.501,"end":9492.606,"text":"以亡羊補牢避免法官失去其職務分際及自律能力。欸,您監察院有跟您糾正嗎?這個涉及到個案齁。你知道監察院有調查周靜妮法官的違法狀況怎麼寫嗎?我剛才說2021年周靜妮動用私刑當庭掌嘴下跪、欺負社工、揚言在法院放火。監察院怎麼糾正你們?"},{"start":9493.923,"end":9496.105,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":9514.487,"end":9518.331,"text":"每一個個案你們都當成是他的事,其實不是喔!監察院調查周敬禮法官的違法行為發現,他從104年就開始出現無故嚴當羈押案件審理及辦案瑕疵等狀況。上訴問題你們都沒有人察覺嗎?"},{"start":9533.527,"end":9549.634,"text":"都沒有所謂的事前的職務監督嗎?從一百零四年,然後沒有對他的進行職務監督、選建職務監督的機制是沒效的、沒功能的、一直都沒在管的、換他都擔任這個法官,自己亂來也沒要緊的。沒有發揮這個預防的功能啊。然後周靜怡她本人她是怎麼宣稱她的問題?她怎麼這個避責的?她的講法是什麼?你知道嗎?"},{"start":9565.571,"end":9586.207,"text":"這個涉及他個案如何...你也不知道啦!你每個人都說個案,每個個案都是單一行為,還是行為慣性啊!然後這只是一個法官的個案,還是他的行為慣性。如果都遇到這種狀況,你的機制,我在問你的是自行的機制、圖據、形式。法官法第十九條,淪為裝飾用。"},{"start":9588.929,"end":9590.653,"text":"然而二十條內對法院法院長無路應無類貫。我講的是都是這個獨職勒。"},{"start":9600.697,"end":9623.338,"text":"周靜妮她是這樣說的,她規避自己的責任是說,我有身心症,也有可能真的是被身心症所擾。如果她主張她有身心症的話,司法院沒有善盡關懷輔導責任。那如果她有身心症,你們有沒有做合理的調整法官的職務,協助法官調整身心,降低法官不適任,通通都沒有。"},{"start":9624.722,"end":9629.423,"text":"此外,法官法第35條第6項規定,法官、評鑑、委員會為確定行為模式之必要,必須要確定你是偶一為之的突發案件,還是這個法官的不當行為是不佳的辦案模式,他每天都這樣辦案的。"},{"start":9646.287,"end":9674.018,"text":"還是這件兇兇辣公的?法官法第35條憑證委員會就規定了你要去確定他的行為模式是婦人間辣公的、黑白扮的?還是他每件都這樣扮的?所以法官法講說得就未經請求的為師情事並與調查及審議進行行為模式的主動調查可是根據司改會的調查"},{"start":9674.818,"end":9691.099,"text":"因為大家都把司改會陳情嘛。所以司改會調查裡面,掌管個案評鑑的法官評鑑委員會欠缺主動效能,從來都不會啟動第35條第6項的規定,所以這土法不足以治刑嘛。"},{"start":9692.92,"end":9715.677,"text":"就要裝適用的架空了這個法律嘛,因為大家姓屬屬性沒想要再抓屬。然後呢,判斷法官到底是不當行為是偶一為之還是已經不加的霸模式。所以法官法施行這幾年來,李昭榮也是新法第一件也是唯一一件人民請求成立的案件。"},{"start":9717.012,"end":9744.665,"text":"但是因為你昭榮法官而受害的民眾需要重新起訴而且要重新繳納裁判費而且要花費勞力時間重啟訴訟程序有可能因為時效問題而沒有辦法再請求或者是一般民眾你由此可知一般民眾對不事任法官造成的結果所受到的權力侵害的風險跟承擔的責任和痛苦"},{"start":9746.041,"end":9772.794,"text":"你叫人家不要相信司法院,因為現在法官法把你修正了,你這裡的法律也是把架空平在平身的,沒在用。然後每一天送自律委員會都沒有為師,送自律委員會已經是輕輕放下了。該送法官評鑑委員會都給送自律委員會,該送懲戒法庭的都給送人審會。"},{"start":9775.725,"end":9795.115,"text":"李昭榮為例他違反的是法官倫理規範而且情節重大這是你們法評會認為的但是呢卻認定你們認為情節重大還認定他沒有懲戒的必要而移送人審會最後人審會只給予口頭警告怎麼回事啊"},{"start":9803.188,"end":9824.21,"text":"此款的阿伯來、阿伯伯、阿伯伯的都沒有禁止得到一個叫口頭警告。就這種結果來論,你讓不懂法律的老百姓要如何相信你們的評鑑機制確實發揮了協助他們監督司法品質的功能,要怎麼可能挽回對司法的信任?"},{"start":9825.899,"end":9826.44,"text":"對司法要有信心"},{"start":9840.495,"end":9846.978,"text":"我相信你每次都說這句話,我覺得很不負責任,這句話很不負責任,譬如你說這句話,不負責任,對立法院的立委不尊重,對人民、對法官法、對整個司法的制度是一種侮辱,只有叫我們對你要有信心,這樣這種行法,我現在再說,"},{"start":9861.653,"end":9879.686,"text":"司改會大量處理民眾申訴的經驗,不適任法官的被害人,通常大概一個多月不適任,受害者都不是一個。我剛才說李昭榮,你看,如果他時效請求權過了,然後他的權利受到侵害,這麼重大的情節,你們只給我們口頭情節。"},{"start":9881.787,"end":9899.732,"text":"然後不適任法官、被害人通常不會是只有一個。所以我們訂法官法第35條第6項明文規定法官評鑑應針對法官行為模式來評鑑,才能確定法官不當行為到底是偶依為之還是慣性塑形不良的辦案模式。"},{"start":9901.328,"end":9927.146,"text":"您從來沒有啟動。我再說一個李昭榮李昭榮已經惡貫滿盈了。2012年他曾經在審理案件時那個案件的當事人是他的配偶審理的李昭榮的配偶審理的李昭榮想促成和解開庭的時候直接打電話給他的配偶他的法官配偶討論要判誰贏判誰輸贏"},{"start":9930.928,"end":9940.253,"text":"結果當事人在那裡開庭的時候,覺得說:「啊?你這是在做什麼?」他覺得自己太委屈了。沒關係,自己可以直接打電話。另外一個董事長,這樣直接說要破相珠、破相牙。當事人覺得委屈啊,邊錯氣邊說話啊。李昭榮當庭模仿當事人錯氣的口吻。嘲弄、戲虐、當庭斥責。當事人說,"},{"start":9958.018,"end":9966.866,"text":"我們講法律你們不懂的話就把嘴巴閉起來一個小小的租賃案你們要來多久當時這個案件李昭榮被認為問案態度不佳違反審判獨立原則也違反了法官倫理規範在101年被監察委員彈劾"},{"start":9985.407,"end":9985.548,"text":"彈劾過的法官"},{"start":9988.803,"end":10014.59,"text":"現在他還在做法官。他還在侵害這個當事人的權益。今年再度被法評會認為他違反法官倫理且情節重大。今年。但仍然沒有送到懲戒法庭。所以現在的意思是什麼?被彈劾也沒關係。事情不夠很嚴重,像新聞也沒關係。因為呢?"},{"start":10017.991,"end":10027.361,"text":"可以送自立委員會的不要送評鑑委員會。可以送人審會的不要上懲戒法庭。都會輕輕放下。現在都是這個邏輯是嗎?這個都有相關的規定。現在我問你,被彈劾過的"},{"start":10040.083,"end":10069.406,"text":"它看起來就是每一次都情節重大,到現在仍然在情節重大。這個案件也是一樣繼續人審會,口頭告誡,現在是怎樣?這個人審會它也是依規定來處理的,依規定來處理。我現在問你被彈劾過的,然後都情節重大,一而再、再而三,然後一直還持續,所以這不是偶一為之,是行為模式。"},{"start":10071.545,"end":10085.677,"text":"報案模式它就是一直都這樣啦!人家在說喔!對司法、對法、說不信任都是他們這種的啦!但是你們若沒有懲戒啦!也不用付出任何的代價啦!所謂你也在這裡請求秘書長你所說的,也不聞不問啦!也無動於衷啦!這樣要怎麼挽回司法、人民對司法的信任?委員相當提示都很重要啦!都很重要,你要怎麼處理?那我們會深切檢討"},{"start":10103.253,"end":10120.399,"text":"你可以沒有參與言辭辯論,你還可以參與審判。然後呢,你的陪席的法官還自己在審判長那裡簽名。在這種狀況裡面,到底是一時失慮呢?還是知法犯法的辦案習慣?"},{"start":10122.54,"end":10147.809,"text":"法評會不是只有保守到一個案來調查,而是也是應該要依據法官法第35條第6項的立法意旨,落實行為模式的調查而發揮主動的效能。第三十五條第6項,得就未經請求的為師情形並與調查和審議。啊你是不是這樣調查過了?你如果這幾年這樣,懲戒法院也沒有了。"},{"start":10152.466,"end":10153.727,"text":"按照規定來問你,被彈劾的法官要怎麼處理?"},{"start":10174.099,"end":10184.311,"text":"檢察院都彈劾了,法官要怎麼處理?按照規定你告訴我。違反審判獨立原則,問案態度不佳,違反法官倫理,而且被檢察院彈劾。按照規定要怎麼處理?"},{"start":10196.036,"end":10222.666,"text":"談核的情況多種,所以這個也要看。我們剛才這樣看起來,這大家都讓人家瞠目結舌。《遣赤法官法》2020年新法上路後,我剛才講李昭榮是人民請求評鑑的第一件,也是唯一一件人民直接請求評鑑成功的個案。法官法以後呢,事實上像司改會他沒有辦法代替當事人提起這個請求了。"},{"start":10225.367,"end":10245.675,"text":"所以現在請求成立的案件都是要由機關或團體或律師公會提出。憑借委員會我們都在講說你這個門檻其實已經阻隔了民間要協助當事人的門檻了。然後憑借委員會也應該要主動跟法府合作降低民眾或是經濟弱勢或身心障礙或是一般人對於請求個案憑借的門檻。"},{"start":10248.757,"end":10253.446,"text":"請求評鑑其實你們的大事化小小事化有了但是現在請求評鑑的門檻都很高所以"},{"start":10258.646,"end":10286.516,"text":"一半人其實沒辦法請求評鑑所以我們現在在這裡講最後一個訴求你們對於主動評鑑委員會主動跟法府合作降低請求評鑑的門檻我相信你們是不樂意啦因為要評鑑法官啊大家都說希望門檻越高越好比較不用處理不當不適任法官的問題我們自己沒辦法處理還有派的還有資深的、委資深的"},{"start":10288.323,"end":10309.303,"text":"再來就是說要降低這個門檻還包括臺北以外的地區要設立辦事處或聯繫窗口提供諮詢輔導和修建服務我們要讓請求評鑑的可敬性提高民眾才有機會然後才有全民大家一起監督法官的這個空間"},{"start":10310.864,"end":10324.334,"text":"我知道站在司法院跟法官的立場當然評鑑的可敬性越低越好啦門檻越高越好啦委員這些提示都很重要啦都很重要你要做嗎?我剛才說的我不要說你整個個案啦這樣"},{"start":10331.163,"end":10338.907,"text":"跟法府合作,臺北以外的地區設立辦事處或聯繫窗口,提供諮詢和輔導及修建服務,讓民眾有機會有可盡性請求評鑑。"},{"start":10344.909,"end":10347.43,"text":"這幾項很具體,而且很簡單。您要做嗎?記錄下來不是問題。請相關聽處來研議。這件事有什麼好研議的?沒有正義在這裡是應該的,這件事還要研議什麼?您不要去職務監督您的法官。"},{"start":10368.863,"end":10388.221,"text":"您的議帳也很沒用的啦,大家董事和董事長都不可以完結破壞和諧啦。阿沒董事這麼受威脅受完毆啦,我還可以去請求法官評鑑欸,這個門檻可以降低嗎,這樣而已啊。所以在研議嘛,我們會研議啊。研議人家權利都受損了,我剛才講這幾個違法,阿再來當事人權利都受損。"},{"start":10394.115,"end":10394.275,"text":"謝謝主席。"},{"start":10419.001,"end":10442.857,"text":"委員長現在人際關係愈來愈複雜同時不僅是這個過去的校園霸凌還有智商商的霸凌現在連網路也時刻的在充施這霸凌這其實對人類的心理都造成嚴重壓力也因此現在這個心理師是當前社會愈來愈重要的一個地位跟位置"},{"start":10444.588,"end":10473.16,"text":"尤其心理師在對當事人治療的時候都是會碰觸到當事人最私密的部分甚至於在受虐、性侵或家暴案件中心理師所掌握的是當事人不想再被提起的傷痛的部分也因此如果客觀的事就能判定的事情時就不需要讓治療的心理師站在證人席上陳述那些當事人不再想被揭開的傷痛秘書長可以認同嗎?"},{"start":10475.103,"end":10478.027,"text":"刑事訴訟法第182條中至今沒有把這個心理師納入的拒絕正言的範圍內。"},{"start":10488.957,"end":10504.609,"text":"因此在刑事審判中法院可以傳喚心理師作為證人取證,然後讓心理師與被制咬者產生一種隔閡,制咬上也產生一定的難度。所以我認為是應該把心理師納入拒絕證言權的一個職務之一,司法院法務部這邊的立場應該一致吧。"},{"start":10510.329,"end":10519.698,"text":"在刑事訴訟法120條中加入心理師這三個字或許簡單,但是確實重要。也就司法院應該也清楚,你們這110年司法院已經早就提出這個草案。"},{"start":10533.391,"end":10533.911,"text":"adequ."},{"start":10533.911,"end":10555.36,"text":"也要把這個心理師納入在拒絕證言權這個部分但一拖就拖到112年這個會期是本屆最後一個會期那這張心理師全員會上會期來向本席反映已經到這個會期末所以來不及這個協助排案不過我想也特別拜託我們召委然後"},{"start":10555.86,"end":10556.22,"text":"adequ."},{"start":10556.22,"end":10556.461,"text":"刑事訴訟法部長"},{"start":10576.916,"end":10577.056,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":10597.932,"end":10622.388,"text":"在今年的6月16日,憲法法庭112年憲判制第九號判決,檢調搜索律師事務所部分違憲,針對律師與被告、犯罪嫌疑人或潛在犯罪嫌疑人之間進行秘密溝通的文書及電池、紀錄等資料進行搜索或扣押,是違款保障律師工作權及被告訴訟權的意旨。"},{"start":10624.934,"end":10652.499,"text":"針對律師事務所內部若確實有犯罪事證必須進行搜索或扣押時也必須要有適當的規劃避免其他的案件當事人的資料受到侵害。這個現法法庭做出這樣判決司法院跟法務部要怎麼因應?什麼叫做適當的規劃?你們有開始模擬了嗎?這些我們會根據先判制的那個先判的意旨來"},{"start":10653.922,"end":10682.892,"text":"cellence 如何修法但是他說必須要適當的規劃,這個適當規劃就你的理解這個要怎麼說明?對我們委員會要怎麼說明?就是說這個已經列入我們這個修法的範圍這一部分我們刑事廳都有具體在做了刑事廳都有具體在做在修法方面已經具體在研擬了"},{"start":10683.686,"end":10695.715,"text":"所以憲法法庭所指的適當的規劃是指希望司法院趕快去做這個法律的修正?就如何修法了嗎?如何修法?他已經都有明白先示出來。"},{"start":10697.296,"end":10716.113,"text":"你把刑事出來法務部呢?這個宪判制裡面其實在這過渡期間兩年內他已經有具體指示該怎麼按照判決意旨來進行那兩年內刑事訴訟法必須要按照宪判意旨來進行相關修正那據我所知司法院他也進行相關修正那本部也積極的參與"},{"start":10719.912,"end":10733.25,"text":"這是司法院及其司法院及其到現在有開過任何的研討會嗎?聽裡面都已經有主辦法官在處理在處理因為這個憲判制他有一定的我的理解是你們研討會到現在都沒有召開過"},{"start":10734.42,"end":10738.765,"text":"會盡速處理。這個會盡速處理。這個我們會盡速處理,因為他已經那個宪判制已經明擺先訴出來。"},{"start":10753.379,"end":10782.734,"text":"法務部的資料中在2020年到2022年共有20件律師事務所被搜索案件,那20件有18件是律師為嫌疑人,兩件為律師事務所為犯罪地,只有這個資料。但在憲法法庭第九號判決後,搜索律師事務所除了秘密溝通不能取證外,其他的證物搜索扣押必須要有適當的規劃。現在在沒有明確制度出來前,基層的警調到底要不要再去律師事務所做搜索?"},{"start":10783.617,"end":10807.249,"text":"跟委員報告事實上本部在這個宪判制做出來之前本部已經透過我們內部的函式對律師事務所搜索也按幾乎是按照這個宪判制的意旨來進行相關的搜索跟扣押原則上我們對被告是第三人狀況下我們不是進行搜索跟扣押基本上已經滿接近這個宪判制的意旨事務上已經是這樣在做了所以不會因為9號的判決綁手綁腳不會事實上事務上就已經是這樣進行了"},{"start":10811.557,"end":10819.905,"text":"如果你講不會,我就沒有意見了。司法院委員說明剛剛那個修法的法案,我們已經草擬出來了。會盡速來徵刑專家寫者的意見。"},{"start":10824.322,"end":10840.79,"text":"市長,應該你們草案出來,到底是有討論過了嗎?有,我們有專責,我們刑事廳有專責法官,這個修法草案都出來了。好啦,反正你們如果,剛才次長講說不會幫手幫腳,那你們又再草擬,那我就..."},{"start":10842.291,"end":10855.91,"text":"我就提醒到這個地方啦齁但是我還是希望不要到最後一個會期齁你兩年嘛對不對114年我們是不是有機會再來回復再來回來審視你的進度到時候就再就再來討論了好不好好謝謝"},{"start":10857.321,"end":10857.481,"text":"謝主席。"},{"start":10888.102,"end":10910.64,"text":"現在進行討論事項請議事人員就討論事項個案的提案條文一併宣讀宣讀時間大概15分鐘宣讀時與會者可以利用時間上洗手間宣讀後就進行法案的討論另外如果有修正動也一併宣讀請宣讀"},{"start":10913.338,"end":10939.309,"text":"討論事項第一案,刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案。司法院行政院提案第219條之三,除將默劇中地方法院檢察署修正為地方檢察署外其餘未修正。十二項黨團提案第219條之三,同司法院行政院提案第219條之七,除將第一項默劇中地方法院檢察署修正為地方檢察署外其餘未修正。"},{"start":10940.209,"end":10959.122,"text":"時代力量黨團提案第219條之七從司法院行政院提案。司法院行政院提案第257條除將第二項及第四項條文中法院檢察署勳修正為檢察署外其餘未修正。時代力量黨團提案第257條從司法院行政院提案。"},{"start":10960.655,"end":10976.422,"text":"司法院行政院提案第258條除將序文中及第一款及第二款條文中的法院檢查署均修正為檢查署令序文默劇中的左列修正為下列外其餘未修正"},{"start":10977.382,"end":11001.713,"text":"時代力量黨團提案第258條同司法院、行政院提案司法院、行政院提案第288條除第四項增訂後段為並先小譽當事人舊科型資料指出證明之方法其餘未修正司法院、行政院提案第385條除第一項墨具中及第二項手具中的"},{"start":11002.881,"end":11010.936,"text":"第三審法院之檢察官均修正為第三審法院對應之檢察署檢察官。第二項但書中,"},{"start":11012.185,"end":11037.262,"text":"原審法院檢察官修正為原審法院對應之檢察署檢察官其餘未修正十二例案黨團提案第三百八十五條處第一項默劇中及第二項手續中第三審法院之檢察官均修正為第三審檢察署之檢察官第二項但書中原審法院檢察官修正為原審檢察署檢察官其餘未修正"},{"start":11039.187,"end":11066.284,"text":"司法院行政院提案第四百二十七條除序文墨具中左列修正為下列令第一款修正為依管轄法院對應之檢察署檢察官外其餘未修正。第四百二十八條除第一項條文中管轄法院之檢察官修正為管轄法院對應之檢察署檢察官令但書前的分號修正為句號外其餘未修正。"},{"start":11067.318,"end":11095.761,"text":"第四百三十條除條文中管轄法院之檢察官修正為管轄法院對應之檢察署檢察官外其餘未修正。第四百三十四條除第二項手續修正為申請人或受裁定人不符前項裁定者第三項手續修正為經第一項裁定後其餘未修正。第四百四十一條除條文中最高法院檢察署修正為最高檢察署外其餘未修正。"},{"start":11096.718,"end":11123.337,"text":"則在立案黨團提案第四百四十一條同司法院行政院提案。委員蔡玉等提案第四百四十一條除後段修正為最高法院檢察署檢察總長或中華民國律師公會全國聯合會理事長提案。經律師聯合會大會通過後得向最高法院提起非常上述其餘未修正。委員游玉蘭等提案第四百四十一條同司法院行政院提案。"},{"start":11125.242,"end":11133.209,"text":"司法院行政院提案第442條除條文中最高法院檢察署修正為最高檢察署外其餘未修正"},{"start":11134.113,"end":11155.012,"text":"十二例案黨團提案及委員游宇蘭等提案第442條均同司法院行政院提案。司法院行政院提案第455條之30除後段段數中管轄法院之檢察官修正為管轄法院對應之檢察署檢察官外其餘未修正。司法院行政院提案第476條"},{"start":11157.099,"end":11172.065,"text":"除條文中,地方法院檢察官修正為地方法院對應之檢察署檢察官外其餘未修正。時代力量黨團提案第476條除條文中,地方法院檢察官修正為地方檢察官外其餘未修正。"},{"start":11173.365,"end":11202.118,"text":"司法院行政院提案第477條依刑法第53條及第54條依依刑法第51條第五款至第七款之規定,定其應執行之刑者由該案犯罪事實最後判決之法院對應之檢察署檢察官申請該法院判決之,並同時以申請書散本通知受刑人。受刑人或其法定代理人配偶亦得請求檢察官為前項之申請。"},{"start":11203.078,"end":11219.307,"text":"​​法院對於第一項申請出顯無必要或有擊破情形者外,於裁定前應與受刑人以言辭或書面陳述意見之機會。法院依第一項裁定其應執行之行者應記載審酌之事項。"},{"start":11223.033,"end":11251.504,"text":"委員陳明文等提案第四百七十七條除第一項首具前段一刑法第四十八條應更訂其刑者或等文字三處外其餘未修正。委員林楚茵等提案第四百七十七條對照委員陳明文等提案除第一項倒數第二具中法院之檢察官修正為法院對應檢察署之檢察官外其餘同委員陳明文等提案。"},{"start":11252.344,"end":11271.626,"text":"委員翁崇鈞等提案第477條同委員陳明文等提案。第二案刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案。司法院行政院提案第27條除第三項前二具修正為被告或犯罪嫌疑人因身心障礙至無法為完全之陳述者其餘未修正。"},{"start":11273.45,"end":11295.646,"text":"司法院行政院提案第31條假案司法院版本除第一項第三款修正為三被告因身心障礙之無法為完全之陳述。第四款及第五款據莫的者自刪除。另增訂第六款六被告再押。第七款由原第六款條文遞移並將據莫者自刪除。"},{"start":11298.971,"end":11326.325,"text":"第五項前段修正為被告或犯罪嫌疑人因身心障礙之無法為完全之陳述或具原住民身份或在押於偵查中無辯護忍者司法警察官或司法警察於詢問時應通知依法設立之法律輔助機構指派律師到場為其辯護檢察官於詢問時應指定律師為被告辯護令增訂第六項"},{"start":11328.103,"end":11347.568,"text":"第二項至第七項之規定於前項之指定辯護準用之其餘未修正以案行政院版對照假案司法院版第31條除第一項、第三款至第五款及第七款據莫均增訂則制,另增訂第五項。"},{"start":11349.246,"end":11372.396,"text":"被告或犯罪嫌疑人具原住民身份者於偵查中未經選任辯護人、檢察官、司法警察官或司法警察應通知依法設立之法律輔助機構指派律師到場為其辯護但經被告或犯罪嫌疑人主動請求立即詢問或詢問或等候律師於四小時未到場者應進行詢問或詢問。"},{"start":11375.56,"end":11388.65,"text":"第六項及第七項由假案之第五項及第六項條文遞移,並將第六項前段修正為被告或犯罪嫌疑人因身心障礙至無法為完全之陳述者,予於偵查中未經選任辯護人。"},{"start":11391.533,"end":11419.656,"text":"另第四具中的司法警察後於詢問時等文字刪除。第五具檢察官後的於詢問時等文字刪除。其餘同假案司法院版本。司法院行政院提案第35條除第三項前二具修正為被告或犯罪嫌疑人因身心障礙至無法為完全之陳述者。其餘未修正。"},{"start":11421.075,"end":11449.817,"text":"司法院行政院提案第93條之一,假案司法院版除第一項第三款及第四款句末者字均刪除,令第五款但書前的者字及倒數第二句末的者字刪除,令中段文字修正為其等候第三十一條第五項律師到場致畏與詢問或因身心障礙致無法為完全之陳述,"},{"start":11451.414,"end":11475.752,"text":"令第六款及第七款條文中但書前的者自均刪除其餘未修正以案行政院版對照假案的司法院版第93條之一除第一項第五款中段第31條第五項後增訂或第六項等文字外其餘與同假案司法院版"},{"start":11477.287,"end":11494.675,"text":"司法院行政院提案第182條。除於藥師後增訂心理師外其餘未修正。委員周書敏等提案第182條。除於條文中會計師後增訂心理師外其餘未修正。委員莊敬成等提案第182條。"},{"start":11496.897,"end":11521.199,"text":"除於條文中注產式後增訂心理師令默二具修正為非經本人允許應拒絕證言其餘未修正委員陳敬明等提案第182條除於條文中注產式後增訂護理師並於默具之得字修正為因字其餘未修正"},{"start":11523.343,"end":11551.193,"text":"委員劉建國等提案第182條除於條文中注慘事後增定心理事外其餘未修正。司法院行政院提案第186條除第一項第一款據莫者自刪除第二款修正為二因精神或其他輕致障礙、智不解、拒絕意義及效果其餘未修正。司法院行政院提案第253條之二"},{"start":11553.243,"end":11579.322,"text":"除第一項第六款條文中精神治療後增訂心理治療心理諮商其餘未修正委員何志偉等提案第二百五十三條之二除第一項第六款中心理輔導後增訂生命教育外其餘未修正委員陳江華等提案第二百五十三條之二除第一項增訂第九款為九"},{"start":11581.324,"end":11608.264,"text":"爭著犯罪危害及被告能力而認為屬適當之必要命令其餘未修正委員林靜怡等提案第253條之二除第一項第四款修正為四向公庫支付一定金額並得由該管檢察署依規定提撥一定比率補助相關公益團體、地方政治團體或醫療機構其餘未修正。司法院行政院提案第294條"},{"start":11610.922,"end":11634.651,"text":"除第一項修正為被告因精神或其他心智障礙、智不解訴訟行為意義或欠缺依其理解而為訴訟行為之能力者,應於其回覆以前停止審判。令增訂第五項有第一項或第二項停止審判之原因者,當事人、辯護人或輔助人得申請停止審判。其餘未修正"},{"start":11637.628,"end":11660.322,"text":"司法院、行政院提案第二百九十八條除條文中當事人後增訂辯護人或輔助人外其餘未修正。第二百九十八條之一,對於第二百九十四條第一項、第二項及前四條停止或繼續審判之裁定或駁回第二百九十四條第五項或前條申請之裁定得提起抗告。"},{"start":11662.52,"end":11681.617,"text":"第四百五十五條之四十一除第二項條文中第六款修正為第五款、第七款外其餘未修正。第三案刑事訴訟法施行法增訂第七條之十九條文草案司法院行政院提案"},{"start":11683.274,"end":11703.793,"text":"假案司法院版第七條之十九中華民國某年某月某日修正通過之刑事訴訟法除第31條第五項第六項自公布後一年施行外自公布日施行前項修正通過之刑事訴訟法施行前已為刑事訴訟法第294條第一項第二項及第295條之第298條停止繼續審判或駁回繼續審判申請之裁定者"},{"start":11709.978,"end":11732.395,"text":"人是用刑事訴訟法第四百零四條第一項本文規定以案行政院版對照檢案司法院版第七條之十九除第一項條文中第三十一條第五項第六項修正為第三十一條第六項及第七項外其與同司法院行政院版本。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":11734.242,"end":11759.202,"text":"繼續修正動議部分討論事項第一案修正動議一對照司法院行政院提案條文第四百七十七條第一項後段修正為備具善本申請該法院裁定之法院於接受善本後應交善本送達於受刑人提案員委員湯惠珍等討論事項第二案修正動議一對照司法院行政院提案條文假案司法院版"},{"start":11760.303,"end":11785.323,"text":"第31條第一項第六款刪除第七款第為第六款。第五項前段修正為被告或犯罪嫌疑人因身心障礙至無法為完全之陳述或具原住民身份於偵查中未經選任辯護人檢察官司法檢察官或司法檢察應通知依法設立之法律輔助機構指派律師到場為其辯護。第六項刪除"},{"start":11791.874,"end":11816.385,"text":"第四百五十五條之四十一不予修正提案人委員濤惠貞等。討論事項第三案修正動議一對照司法院行政院提案條文假案司法院版第七條之十九第一項三處第二項聚首前項二次修正為中華民國某年某月某日提案人委員濤惠貞等宣讀完畢。"},{"start":11821.189,"end":11849.034,"text":"好,提案條文修正動議均已宣讀完畢,現在進行討論事項。第一案,併案審查司法院、行政院函請審議。刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案等7案。為求效率,我們是不是審略大體討論,直接進行逐條審查。有沒有異議?好,如果沒有意見,我們就現在開始進行逐條審查。"},{"start":11852.945,"end":11866.206,"text":"第219條之三,現在有時代力量黨團也有提案。陳教華委員有沒有什麼意見?"},{"start":11867.807,"end":11868.328,"text":"刑事訴訟法"},{"start":11883.746,"end":11909.053,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":11911.069,"end":11937.689,"text":"我們現在依照這個司法院、行政院提案通過,有沒有意見?好,沒有意見我們就照司法院、行政院提案通過。219條之7,我們也照司法院、行政院提案通過,有沒有意見?好,沒有。第257條,我們照司法院、行政院提案通過,有沒有意見?"},{"start":11938.985,"end":11967.984,"text":"好,第258條,我們照司法院、行政院提案,通過有沒有意見?好,第288條,也是照司法院、行政院提案,通過有沒有意見?法務委員,這部分我們在報告裡面有提到,我們是不是就是說關於這個良情調查部分,我們是想把它修正成這個法官的職權調查事項,把它載入條文當中。那是我們本部的立場,那當然尊重委員會的決定,謝謝。"},{"start":11972.438,"end":11973.279,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11991.692,"end":12020.374,"text":"第四百二十八條照司法院、行政院提案通過有沒有意見?沒有。第四百三十條也照司法院、行政院提案通過有沒有意見?沒有。四百三十四條照司法院、行政院提案通過有沒有意見?沒有。第四百四十一條照司法院、行政院提案通過有沒有意見?沒有。第四百四十二條照司法院、行政院提案通過有沒有意見?沒有。"},{"start":12022.324,"end":12029.527,"text":"禁令第四百四十二條之一,機關有沒有意見?"},{"start":12048.057,"end":12053.308,"text":"對,這個是委員蔡易瑜等20人提案的喔。"},{"start":12057.37,"end":12082.91,"text":"這一點我們有意見,事務委員有意見。請李庭長。有關於442條之一的修正草案的部分,我們認為說非常上述屬於專屬最高檢察署檢察長的職權,是不是要擴充到由律師公會來提起非常上述的權利,這部分我們有比較保留,然後建議是不是不要陣列以上。"},{"start":12088.772,"end":12093.455,"text":"第455條之30,照司法院、行政院提案通過,有沒有意見?"},{"start":12103.149,"end":12121.66,"text":"第476條也是照司法院、行政院提案通過,有沒有意見?沒有。第477條現在有修正動議,能不能按照委員湯惠貞等三人所提的修正動議通過,有沒有問題?沒有問題。沒有問題,謝謝。"},{"start":12129.158,"end":12154.996,"text":"本案逐條均已處理完畢,作以下宣告。本案審查完畢,擬具審查報告提請院會公決,本案是否須交由黨團協商。不用,不須交由黨團協商。院會討論時,由趙啟文、湯惠珍出席說明。條次引述條文部分文字以及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理。"},{"start":12157.974,"end":12176.451,"text":"現在進行第二案,並案審查。司法院、行政院函請審議:「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案。」等八案。為求效率,我們是不是也審略大體討論,直接進行逐條審查?好,謝謝。如果沒有意見,我們現在就開始進行逐條審查。"},{"start":12180.882,"end":12207.809,"text":"第27條我們照司法院、行政院提案通過有沒有意見?沒有。好。第31條那個照委員湯惠貞等3人所提的修正動議通過有沒有意見?沒有。好。謝謝。我們就照修正動議通過。第35條我們照司法院、行政院提案通過有沒有意見?沒有。好。謝謝。第93條之一"},{"start":12209.608,"end":12234.393,"text":"我們有兩個版本,我們現在是不是照司法院行政院提案的假案司法院版通過,有沒有意見?有意見嗎?沒有意見?好,沒有意見了,好。那第182條,照司法院行政院提案通過有沒有意見?好,現在請金明委員。"},{"start":12236.374,"end":12245.981,"text":"謝謝主席那剛剛我已經有對於我的意見的發言那我想要再次強調的說其實182條其實是為維繫護理人員當他跟這個個案有信賴保護關係的時候為了要遵守我們的護理倫理的守則"},{"start":12255.208,"end":12275.744,"text":"但是更要避免我們護理人員會因為這樣而侵害我們的護理人員法。所以我們很期待是說能夠把這樣子的一個護理人員有這樣子的一個拒絕證言權能夠放進去。主要是因為護理人員他現在自行獨立的角色如果被含瓜在"},{"start":12276.204,"end":12277.565,"text":"閱讀《刑事訴訟法》的《刑事訴訟法》報告。"},{"start":12304.102,"end":12316.683,"text":"那這樣子的情況之下是不是可以比較讓這個法條可以可行?以上。好,這邊我們機關有沒有什麼意見?"},{"start":12319.689,"end":12334.251,"text":"謝謝主席。有關於182條要甄列護理人員這個部分,我們在基本上我們是先已經在法的明文裡面,就是在左裡的部分,業務上的左裡的部分已經在可以涵蓋護理人員了。"},{"start":12335.092,"end":12352.107,"text":"那有沒有必要再把它明文化?這個部分因為剛剛江委員有提到,剛剛可能要盤點很多的各種專業職人的類型。那我們考慮到180人的聚合職人權,它主要的目的,它有分好久,就以醫療行為來看,它主要保護的是當事人的隱私權為目的。那並不是在保護證人,它主體不是在保護證人,因為對真實犯罪的真實發現,"},{"start":12362.536,"end":12363.477,"text":"議員陳明文等20人擬具"},{"start":12387.549,"end":12388.11,"text":"議員陳明文等20人擬具"},{"start":12403.243,"end":12416.607,"text":"護理行為與被告的隱私有沒有緊密的聯合,必須要揭露他的隱私才能得到好的護理。護理行為與被告的隱私有沒有緊密的聯合,必須要揭露他的隱私才能得到好的護理。護理行為與被告的隱私有沒有緊密的聯合,必須要揭露他的隱私才能得到好的護理。"},{"start":12427.97,"end":12433.451,"text":"議員林楚茵等20人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案案案 案。議員林楚茵等20人擬具"},{"start":12458.496,"end":12484.302,"text":"我今天如果要通過心理諮商師我是完全同意但是剛剛如果你只有用這個醫療的這個佐理人這個我不同意你這個說法那如果你用醫療的佐理人的話如同我早上所問的一大堆啊相關於醫事方面的有一大堆啊那你如何能夠在說明欄寫清楚到底"},{"start":12485.463,"end":12511.73,"text":"厲施被你排除那他只用左理所以他在左理醫療行為的時候才有拒絕證言權嗎?那他如果不是醫主的時候在其他的範圍都不是嗎?所以這不成立啦你也不要在意什麼到底是保護當事人的隱私還是說保障這個職業的信賴以及社會功能的倫理你說不通啊因為這個問來問去彼此彼此打槍的很嚴重"},{"start":12513.37,"end":12527.881,"text":"然後我就告訴你早上你一直說社會在進步你們要跟著進步日本日本什麼時候告訴你喔昭和23年1948年護士就拿進來了在他們刑事訴訟法149條1948年就把護士列為有拒絕證言權韓國"},{"start":12541.277,"end":12541.577,"text":"議員林楚茵"},{"start":12562.489,"end":12577.003,"text":"那也許日韓我們的醫護體系我看會跟他們比較一致不一定是歐美再加上日韓兩國的法律體系他們在引用司法程序的時候一定會互相參考這都是幾十年前的事了捏"},{"start":12578.252,"end":12606.067,"text":"台灣我在日韓的這個國際上的法律的一個比較也許我還沒有看到其他的部分但人家的法律明定了護士那到衍生到現在不是衍生啦進階到現在你或許把他進階到護理師的層級那護理師在護理師以外的在這些照護或者說甚至現有的護士你沒有考量當中你還你可以去斟酌不過至少"},{"start":12607.591,"end":12614.374,"text":"以這樣來看的話,我認為你要把護理師納入。然後心理諮商室這個我們完全同意。以上。好,現在有提一個附帶決議喔。那現在陳金明委員,您這個現在按照那個附帶決議,這個內容。我已經簽了。"},{"start":12637.456,"end":12659.891,"text":"因為我是真的知道這個的確是可能護理人員放進來以後可能還要再去盤整其他的醫事人員在相關的佐理性上面的定義那也因為這個廳長其實昨天有來解釋那我也知道說我們這個修法有它的急迫性"},{"start":12660.787,"end":12677.501,"text":"為什麼我剛剛雖然還沒有得到我們的好的回覆之前我就先擬了一個附帶決議但是其實在江委員的發言以後我現在是真的覺得是說日韓都已經有這樣子的一個"},{"start":12678.441,"end":12679.962,"text":"adequ."},{"start":12679.962,"end":12706.834,"text":"更重要的是司法院對於整個的醫療進步的狀況好像沒有進入狀況很多的醫療的先進步特別是我一直在講的專科護理師他其實已經在獨立執行醫療行為了所以還把他放成因為醫師的佐理這樣子的一個身份那所以如果我們做其他的這個"},{"start":12707.754,"end":12728.394,"text":"護理的業務,譬如說我早上舉的例子,學校衛生護理人員因為護理的獨立業務,因為他要做諮商,因為他要做評估,發現這個學童可能有未婚生子的一個問題,那這樣子是因為我護理的獨立行為,那我可不可以豁免我的證言權?"},{"start":12730.314,"end":12745.387,"text":"所以我要提的是我們司法院對於我們現在醫療的進步情形可能真的沒有通盤的了解。好,我們現在有修正動議,我們先宣讀好了。可以嗎?"},{"start":12766.414,"end":12771.318,"text":"修正都議二（第182條對照司法院、行政院提案條文。"},{"start":12773.035,"end":12789.977,"text":"於一時後增列護理人員等四字,心理助產室修正為助產人員,其一為修正。提案人委員湯慧珍、劉建國、鄭英鵬、姜永昌、陳靜敏、陳佩玉等。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":12803.493,"end":12806.794,"text":"刑事訴訟法第182條的修正動議那機關這邊有沒有什麼意見?"},{"start":12832.975,"end":12833.536,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12853.78,"end":12880.964,"text":""},{"start":12881.32,"end":12893.546,"text":"是不是這一部分還是要以立法的層面來看,我個人是比較偏向還是要慎重的來有一些思考,可能這樣會比較好。"},{"start":12897.148,"end":12925.251,"text":"因為倉促之間有時候突然因為法律要有它的明確性所以可能還是要因為這個突然這樣就我是覺得還是要慎重會比較好一點因為這個立法畢竟還是有一定規格會比較好一點主席我要發言"},{"start":12927.205,"end":12942.821,"text":"民議長我覺得你用此譴責可能要修正一下好不好你這種講法很奇怪你是當我們這些委員在處理法案都不慎重都不具規格這種講法真的不好啦"},{"start":12944.551,"end":12970.204,"text":"因為你所謂已經做好拖的齁,已經給我拖刷了就對了,很難賠啦。大家說我很難賠,你已經難賠很過分了啦,你現在你說要慎重,我們提這個案還是其他委員提這個案是不夠慎重,不具規格。不是啊,你這種講法你要不要修正一下。我是支持院版,但是我聽你講這種話我覺得莫名其妙欸。然後剛才江委員在提出來的相關的"},{"start":12970.748,"end":12970.928,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":12984.284,"end":13002.99,"text":"因為之前協商過程並沒有說把這個...當然沒有錯啦!但是你不能說因為協商過程沒有把護理人員納入現在我們正式在討論法案的修正過程裡面就不用去討論這個事情討論這個事情就叫做不夠規格、不夠慎重那你是在說什麼事?是之前的協商並沒有提出這些啦"},{"start":13014.009,"end":13040.547,"text":"這個我也要反映一下這個之前的協商好像是協商完成了以後昨天才到我辦公室所以如果剛剛這個我們列席首長席的這個發言這樣子講的話就更呼應了剛剛我們劉委員講的好像我們這個委員都沒有做功課一樣我們是提案在先但是你們沒有來溝通那我們現在來發言就是說又不夠周詳"},{"start":13045.116,"end":13058.915,"text":"我再先回應一下剛剛聽長一直在講說如果護理人員放進來護理的佐理員會不會要討論對不起現在我們照護司也在這裡我們沒有一個title叫做護理佐理員所以請放心"},{"start":13061.208,"end":13086.527,"text":"那個是佐理,跟委員報告一下,那個佐理人員他不是一個title,是業務上的輔佐人的意思,他不是一個title,所以這個部分我們可能容我們刑事廳把這個相關的議題待會去盤整,那因為剛剛姜委員的指教我們覺得非常受用,那我們可能相關盤點所有的專業的人員需要做拒絕證言的,我們統一來做盤點,也許"},{"start":13089.429,"end":13114.414,"text":"是不是容我們把這部分帶回去研議,那我們儘速再提相關的修正法案出來,來是不是可以這樣子的處理上。我想在場只有我是護理人員,那我個人其實是真的覺得護理因為業務的擴展,而且護理角色現在漸漸也能夠讓社會大眾看到。"},{"start":13114.824,"end":13136.198,"text":"adequ.司法院現在還對於護理角色的這個看法還停留在醫院的打針發藥聽醫師的指示才能夠佐理來說我個人是真的覺得我們國家社會對護理的這個專業實在是太不尊重了啦那但是我知道修法有它的這個失效性那我可不可以就像剛剛廳長講的"},{"start":13137.739,"end":13164.031,"text":"我提一個附帶決議那這個附帶決議是不是就請我們司法院法務部整體的去了解護理相關專業的發展程度那未來我們護理人員可不可以有這個拒絕的證言權我個人是覺得一定會很有需要而且因為護理人數來我問一下聽長你知道我們現在職業的護理人員是多少那你知道醫師是多少"},{"start":13164.855,"end":13167.44,"text":"兩萬多人?兩萬多?三萬多人?副理三萬多人?醫師勒?"},{"start":13175.218,"end":13202.378,"text":"對 所以我要講的就是說當這麼多人的這個權益你都沒有關注的時候然後現在硬要說把這個東西好啦 我知道啦 我們的確是有修法的這個時數壓力那我是不是時間壓力 那我就提附帶決議那就是請我們這個司法跟法務這邊一定要把相關護理的業務做一個通盤的考量甚至您的這個教科書啊"},{"start":13203.098,"end":13203.678,"text":"議員,現在請議事人員先宣讀一下附帶決議。"},{"start":13230.629,"end":13253.616,"text":"不管等一下結果是怎麼樣我還是要先說第一個其實在你們司法院今天提案的最原始的版本裡面你們自己就有增列心理師所以我們完全同意那為什麼你們一開始在這一包當中在一包二條你就增列了心理師表示你有去盤點嘛你知道有人在反映啊但你盤點的不夠檢討的不夠"},{"start":13256.115,"end":13285.188,"text":"所以我跟你講說光是外國這麼明確的把護士而且在幾十年前就放進來的時候顯然在今天審查會上把你們盤點不夠的再拿來討論是非常具有意義跟價值的啊那不然今天說一句實在話還要檢討你們為什麼沒有盤點清楚然後在實際情況之下如果你們真的要用那個業務上面的佐禮"},{"start":13287.189,"end":13297.536,"text":"來作為切不切得開你會有兩個癥結點第一個癥結點叫做說一定要跟遺囑有關的嗎?"},{"start":13299.707,"end":13321.439,"text":"您要知道,也許醫生對於醫病關係當中的病人的不可侵犯,我在講說他最好是有職業上倫理信賴的那一塊。當然我跟你講,一個護理師、一個護理人員,他不只醫屬的那一塊,跟醫生這邊有連帶,他還跟病人受照顧的人更直接,他說不定有更需要"},{"start":13322.139,"end":13323.62,"text":"閱讀《刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":13348.683,"end":13352.945,"text":"議員林楚茵等20人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案案案件事項》案。議員林楚茵等20人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第四百七十七條條文修正草案案件事項》案。"},{"start":13374.332,"end":13397.768,"text":"况在得拒絕正言了,但你怕萬一你放了護理師,護理師的佐禮人你怕拉太大,你把護理師單獨拉在承認此等職務之人的後面,你單獨給他一個職業。那就是說我就知道了,如果到了護理師的時候不用再管到護理師的佐禮之人,就到護理師為止,也可以很明確的立法。"},{"start":13400.105,"end":13427.536,"text":"所以我從盤點沒盤點好那人家國外有立法力所以一早我在問的時候就說我們總要想清楚今天要修個法你界線要拉到哪那你對外才能夠好好的去闡明你的意義否則你沒辦法你剛剛要闡明的時候你用佐理人這個東西來那我就說你護理失之佐理人不要你就把他單獨列一個他就不會產生佐理人到底要不要得拒絕證言權啊"},{"start":13428.672,"end":13455.478,"text":"所以你馬上就被我推翻了啊光這一條我還有兩項沒講你知道嗎可是光是這裡就聽不到一個滿意的滿意的然後是覺得是一個該當的一個修法因為我早上我還包括問了前面有告知沒告知到底後面能不能得拒絕不得拒絕"},{"start":13457.81,"end":13474.576,"text":"你要知道在你185當中對180之人是有義務要告知他得拒絕證言權在你186條是針對181條有義務要告知你知道嗎可是你的182這一條當中到底有無告知之義務說他有得拒絕證言權"},{"start":13477.372,"end":13497.098,"text":"今天要修182了,也沒有看到這個東西要檢討。到底你沒有告訴他或有告訴他你有得拒絕證言權,後面產生的整個的證據能力跟證據力又該當如何?然後後面還要反駁說他不得在以後的結論不能夠再拒絕證言。那裡還有一個問題沒處理。"},{"start":13501.875,"end":13513.05,"text":"以及你現在的這個用字啊你現在這個用字啊就是說你用反反來寫這叫做什麼現在的用字叫做除今本能允許者外得拒絕正言"},{"start":13514.062,"end":13543.682,"text":"其實那他有三種情況啊本人允許的時候是怎麼跟證言權是怎麼弄啊本人不允許的時候啊證言權是怎麼弄拒絕不拒絕應拒絕得拒絕還有本人為民事的時候這個證言權怎麼弄就法律上要這種反反的文次是不是文字上你們也可以調整成讓你一度懂本人允許者本人都已經允許者了所以所以相關之人有沒有"},{"start":13548.746,"end":13556.553,"text":"則本人不允許者相關之人得拒絕證言,本人未明示者相關之人得拒絕證言。"},{"start":13566.007,"end":13571.969,"text":"考論事項第二案附帶決議一有鑒於環境犯罪案件造成環境污染問題,為避免污染持續對環境及生態造成嚴重損害。"},{"start":13592.394,"end":13611.101,"text":"檢察官於具體格案如任得為緩起訴處分時,以斟酌犯罪所身危害及相關因素,命犯罪行為人為清除環境污染或其他預防再犯之必要命令,避免其待於清除且使污染之危害持續發生。第二人委員湯惠琛、焦華等。"},{"start":13611.741,"end":13612.321,"text":"ridges."},{"start":13612.321,"end":13638.713,"text":"附帶決議二略以中上所述,要求司法院兩個月內完成以下事項。一、盡速研議並再次推動修法,將護理人員獨立列入刑事訴訟法182條,拒絕證言權之保障。提案人委員湯惠珍、陳敬明等。宣讀完畢。好,我們先處理附帶決議第二案。那個,是不是,還是照這個司法院、行政院提案通過。附帶決議要先。"},{"start":13642.745,"end":13668.07,"text":"對附帶決議有沒有意見?我不是有意見,是有點請求因為時間上可能要求是在兩個月內完成這部分可不可以請求給我們一點彈性包括召開諮詢會議包括我們立法要經過院會同意這個時程的安排兩個月恐怕真的是有點趕"},{"start":13671.441,"end":13678.788,"text":"這個內容我們完全沒有意見,就是時程上是不是給我們一點,多一點給我們彈性。剛剛有另外一個第一個附帶決議案。現在我們先處理182。"},{"start":13695.472,"end":13722.548,"text":"第182條的附帶決議案,有唸?結論,他唸結論的,就是最後面這個結論。這個結論,我是想說你唸的跟我不一樣,好。院長,後來決定寫兩個月,其實...委員好。坦白講,一、一八的草案我們就要處理了嘛。陳委員是好意,也是應該是接受了嘛。所以那個兩個月,你計高這個,反正是要討個...討個公道啊什麼的。就...兩個月齁。"},{"start":13729.812,"end":13752.506,"text":"好我們就我們就照附帶決議案我們就照附帶決議案通過有沒有意見沒有意見了好現在處理第100剛剛處理完畢這個沒有剛剛是處理附帶決議"},{"start":13758.027,"end":13768.172,"text":"現在第182條就照我們司法院、行政院提案通過,有沒有意見?沒有。負貸決議。對,然後在主條的時候也一併通過,本來是負貸決議了啦,但是他到現在在討論182條,一併把182條的負貸決議去通過。"},{"start":13779.497,"end":13781.117,"text":"我還是提醒秘書長其實司法院是不是"},{"start":13806.311,"end":13834.889,"text":"你剛剛好,剛剛早上跟你垂涎的時候那個事情你們大院也都還沒有討論你知道嗎?你們可能那個刑事庭有討論啦但是到大院都還沒有討論所以我是覺得有些事情跟人家講說盤點那可能速度你們就快一點了不要到了開始完整審查的時候才講剛剛你講的那些話我覺得那些話實在不宜不宜再有下次的這種表述了謝謝"},{"start":13836.63,"end":13836.67,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":13851.858,"end":13877.219,"text":"按照這個附帶決議,照案通過。再宣讀一次。那第182條也是照司法院、行政院提案通過,有沒有意見?沒有。好,OK。第186條我們照司法院、行政院提案通過,有沒有意見?沒有。好,第253條之二,我們照司法院、行政院提案通過,有沒有意見?"},{"start":13878.51,"end":13889.524,"text":"好,第294條我們照司法院、行政院提案通過有沒有意見?好,第298條我們照司法院、行政院提案通過有沒有意見?"},{"start":13890.938,"end":13911.262,"text":"第298條之一也照司法院、行政院提案通過有明意見。第455條之41有修正。照委員康慧珍等三人所提的修正動議不予修正,維持現行條文有明意見。我們現在處理"},{"start":13919.979,"end":13943.655,"text":"委員針對第二案附帶決議一前面已經宣讀了請問機關有沒有意見?沒有附帶決議就照案通過本案逐條均已處理完畢做以下宣告本案審查完畢"},{"start":13945.415,"end":13971.004,"text":"擬具審查報告提請院會公決本案是否需交由黨團協商。好謝謝不需交由黨團協商。院會討論時由召集委員湯惠珍出席說明附帶決議二項一併提報院會處理。條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理。"},{"start":13972.711,"end":13995.877,"text":"好,進行第三案,審查司法院、行政院函請審議《刑事訴訟法施行法》增訂第七條之十九條文草案,因為條文只有一條,我們審略大體討論,直接進行逐條審查,有沒有意義?沒有意見齁?好,如果沒意見我們就現在開始進行逐條審查。"},{"start":14001.201,"end":14021.99,"text":"對這個增訂第七條之十九我們有修正動議是不是照委員湯惠珍等三人所提修正動議並將條次修正為第七條之十八有沒有意義?沒有好我們就照這個修正動議通過"},{"start":14026.328,"end":14053.818,"text":"本案初條已處理完畢,作以下宣告本案審查完畢,擬具審查報告提請院會公決本案是否需要交由黨團協商?不需?好。院會討論時,由召集委員湯惠珍出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":14056.508,"end":14062.599,"text":"議程所列事項均已處理完畢。本次會議到此結束。現在散會。謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"15316","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15316","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd69f9bd0cb75d545dea5b031af9c32cfd46d53a332764a5355e8e3883b7242e735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算。\n三、處理112年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。\n四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。\n五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部中央氣象署單位預算。\n（二、工程會預算案與一、業務報告合併詢答後進行處理，四及五已詢答完畢，本日進行處理）\n（工程會預算提案於112年11月27日中午12時截止收件）\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2023-11-29","start_time":"2023-11-29T08:30:44+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-10-8-23-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-11-29T12:50:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":15556,"委員發言時間":"08:30:44 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爭議的問題。定定道路塌陷及臨防基礎掏空之防範作業指引及工程高空作業障礙防範指引。中央地方建設協調會報協助解決縣市與中央之間的問題順利解決進行。"},{"start":2519.244,"end":2542.465,"text":"在其他相關業務方面,我們落實公共工程設計建造施工,那麼必須依前走來執行,協助工程產業擴展海外的市場。有關於113年預算編列情形,接下來向各位做報告。稅日部分,"},{"start":2543.393,"end":2547.44,"text":"稟賄113年度預算案稅日編列47859000元,較112年度預算增累118000元。主要來源如下。"},{"start":2558.031,"end":2567.86,"text":"罰款及賠償收入44萬元。規會收入4517萬6千元。其他收入222萬3千元。稅出部分,秉會113年度預算稅出編列4億9635萬6千元。較112年度預算增累2422萬元。"},{"start":2586.892,"end":2598.767,"text":"主要編列內容如下一般行政主要為人事會一般行政業務會等基本維持費用編列3億3771萬1千元公共工程企劃及法規業務"},{"start":2605.424,"end":2609.866,"text":"公共工程技術業務公共工程管理業務第一倍金"},{"start":2626.175,"end":2652.026,"text":"公共工程之推動與民眾扶植息息相關,稟會持續協助各機關,讓公共工程順利推動,並讓品質提升。稟會所編列之113年度預算案,需橫著施政計畫之輕重反舉何時編列,敬請指席及各位委員鼎力協助並給予指教。謝謝。"},{"start":2661.396,"end":2687.246,"text":"好,謝謝吳主委。請問各位委員對伊之路有沒有意見?有啦,他剛剛在理財。沒有意見哈,伊之路確定。好,現在進行公共工程委員會業務報告及預算審查詢問。先宣告以下事項。詢問時間,初期委員5加1分鐘,立即委員4加1分鐘。"},{"start":2690.325,"end":2719.657,"text":"委員發言登記截止10點30分截止。各委員如果有提案請在10點前提出來,以便醫生院會診。暫定10點30分休息10分鐘。中午原則上不休息。再請登記第一位洪孟凱委員發言。主席謝謝,麻煩請吳澤成主委。好,吳主委請。"},{"start":2727.55,"end":2748.666,"text":"各位好,這幾年各地天坑地積的掏空事件不斷,尤其9月大直發生了建案開挖而房屋倒塌,讓國人觸目驚心。當時行政院有則成工程會要一個月內來檢討改善,尤其是針對這樣的一個坍塌事件,能夠來做一個釐清。請教現在開會的狀況如何?"},{"start":2752.059,"end":2774.856,"text":"謝謝馮委員的指教對於這個部分經過院長指示那麼秉會也主動前盤的做盤點檢討現在已經訂出高空作業跟我們公共工程地下作業還有建案的相關規定的作業指引已經通行各機關這個指引跟以前有什麼最大不同"},{"start":2775.516,"end":2792.754,"text":"有沒有看到哪裡有缺失就是在這一次開會之後找出了缺失那要求改進的地方?我們檢討結果呢我們認為所有的法令跟專業其實都存在也都有但是呢我們現在最大的差異就是在"},{"start":2794.522,"end":2816.33,"text":"這個建案在進行當中,那麼各自為政,比方說前面的地質狀態,設計、建造到廠商,這個地方沒有一個串聯,沒有組成一個合作的一個前後勾結的一個團隊去做確認,比方說這一次大使的案,已經發現他的異常狀態,卻沒有去做一個處置。"},{"start":2820.852,"end":2835.163,"text":"所以主委我請教因為每一個比較重大的建案或是工程案都會有設計建造嗎?對。所以換言之你這樣講是設計建造在這個過程當中沒有好好的做品質的控管?"},{"start":2835.902,"end":2864.951,"text":"包括到施工是不是整個沒有一個整合一個團隊前後做過所以就是說我們各階段的法令規定相關都已經有存在其實我們的規定如果說都照不走啦應該是都沒問題但是在這個過程就是說環節跟環節的銜接裡面他沒有確實的做交接而應該要設計監照去看整個案件的監照單位又沒有好好的去督促"},{"start":2865.413,"end":2893.303,"text":"所以才造成這次這個房屋倒塌。對,我這邊也跟委員說明一下,譬如公共工程,他在公共工程主辦機關,他對一件工程的這個處理,他會有一個主政整合的這個一個機制。他會把設計、建造還有這個施工,會不時的在那邊做檢討。對。這個機制很重要。所以我們很想把這個部分能夠推廣到民間工程去。"},{"start":2893.843,"end":2913.815,"text":"我想這樣會讓他更發揮。是主委那這樣子設計建造在這樣的一個事件裡面可能要負相對大的責任。那我們有沒有針對這個部分來之後做加強跟要求。有。我們就在主委裡面將來我們後續還會來協調那個內政部透過建築法以及營造業法相關規定來落實剛剛講這個部分。"},{"start":2916.937,"end":2936.355,"text":"但是重點還是在於是責任的給予啊。不要說因為我們常講其實從過去幾個重大公安事故啊。如果說設計建造能夠發揮一定的成效的話就不會讓下面的施工單位這個胡亂施工嗎?或說沒有依照相關的工地的指引來去做施工嗎?"},{"start":2937.817,"end":2950.806,"text":"那這樣子到底他們的責任我們可以要求到什麼程度?其實他的應盡的責任跟應辦事項在相關法令規定都非常清楚這個沒有疑問但是呢他他就是"},{"start":2953.424,"end":2954.325,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案計6案。"},{"start":2968.613,"end":2985.434,"text":"對不對,然後監照者他也要去確認,後面要確認前面的,然後要互相勾替。所以主委本席還是認為啊,人總是會有這種怠惰的個性,或說人如果說沒有在監控的話,可能他就會想說貪小便宜或是逃過心的鬼。"},{"start":2985.894,"end":3002.337,"text":"那我們為什麼要訂立相關的法令而且是要嚴刑峻法其實某種程度上就避免這種僥倖的心理。酒駕是僥倖心理。一樣這種設計建造如果說他可能沒有落實也是僥倖心理就是說不一定查得到我"},{"start":3002.837,"end":3019.195,"text":"我反正我趕快做完趕快領錢趕快結案所以這都是僥倖心理造成我覺得這心態的部分公共工程委員會既然是身為我們中央主管機關而且是上位機關就應該要想出辦法怎麼樣去讓這種僥倖心理能夠更免除"},{"start":3021.584,"end":3029.43,"text":"一個是僥倖,一個是我以為你會做,你以為我會做,結果中間產生縫隙。所以我們很強調這個連結性很重要。我們會來,這方面會來強化。"},{"start":3034.07,"end":3061.48,"text":"好,所以是不是可以再給我們本席更具體到底強化你們要怎麼做?既然你剛剛已經點到這兩點了本席認同一個是僥倖心理我們要防止一個是認為說各自為政本位主義所造成的一個漏洞跟盲點那具體要怎麼做?是不是能夠一個禮拜內給本席相關資料?你們到底要怎麼做?好不好?好,那再來一個部分是最近我們有看到說"},{"start":3062.981,"end":3066.463,"text":"告知要引進印度勞工及10萬名印度移工引進台灣。"},{"start":3079.412,"end":3079.732,"text":"此外找不到工人。"},{"start":3103.308,"end":3128.639,"text":"那好像最近這段時間都是看到勞動部出來綁子彈那主委是不是講一下到底我們台灣現在有沒有面臨這樣的狀況一定要引進或不引進勞工的引進國家這個是由勞動部在負責統籌規劃但是我們有沒有需要那在公共在營建工程方面其實目前的營造業的方面"},{"start":3129.599,"end":3148.695,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":3148.775,"end":3176.295,"text":"第二個我們工程會也對於不是能夠主要依賴外勞對於貶勞跟技術還要去精進這方面我們也是從技術方面希望做到預柱化讓他的這一個現場工作盡量的這個減少。是啊主委你這些講的都是我們這個正面宣導概念我現在就直接問說我們現在有傳出說要印度引進10萬名的印度移工"},{"start":3177.196,"end":3200.278,"text":"那馬上就會有人講是說我們有需要那麼多嗎?一方面講說有沒有需要那麼多?一方面講是說如果10萬名進來之後有可能造成相關的後續的問題,包括低薪問題,包括說我們長期也有存在一些這種種族歧視等等相關。這個都是如果說真的要引進就會有面臨到這些問題,但是追根究底,現在我們到底有需要嗎?"},{"start":3201.967,"end":3220.521,"text":"我應該這樣子說明整個勞動的勞工的政策是勞動部的權責那你要問我是對於這個整體的看法我個人應該還是要從國內的第一個需求到底怎麼樣對那國內到底有沒有需求"},{"start":3221.561,"end":3223.603,"text":"那我們到底有多少的缺口?"},{"start":3243.481,"end":3251.728,"text":"總體來講總體來講就是在勞動部這邊在掌握那就營造業來講我覺得目前我們是覺得還可以我們國家最近這幾年的重大工程"},{"start":3252.808,"end":3279.443,"text":"需求量夠不夠?工人。你講營建工程方面嗎?對。就關國家的工人,不要講民間企業,不要講說可能有哪一些科技廠商他們建廠,所以說把工人都引進,這先不講。關我們自己國家重大工程,不管是造橋、鋪路、蓋新的這些重大建設,我們到目前為止留票的狀況,是不是也都還是有缺工的狀況?我覺得目前應該還可以因應目前的需要。"},{"start":3281.213,"end":3296.399,"text":"主委你這樣講的話那應該是我們接下來所有的公共工程都不應該留標囉本時就先講是說光我的選區有一個三支圖書館阿現在留標就留標了4次6500萬沒人要來標現在追加到"},{"start":3299.52,"end":3323.586,"text":"一千追加了一千多萬變成八千多萬才要公開審閱明年二月再招標但是現在承辦人也告訴我們說即便是多增加了一千多萬快兩千萬他們也很擔心標不出去啊流標因素不一定只有缺工問題還有很多的因素包括它的價格合不合理設計合不合理都有都有都有一些相關的可能"},{"start":3323.826,"end":3351.28,"text":"主委但是這個圖書館相對來講設計應該沒有那麼的複雜價格如果大家都可以將本求利去算那個到底多少錢所以我現在本席我沒有要挖洞給你跳主委不用那麼的保守但是本席只是看到因為我覺得10萬名的移工其實我衍生的問題我直指問題核心啦我會擔心的是說因為已經看到有些影片上面有人也在講是說這10萬名的移工來可能會造成後續的治安問題等等"},{"start":3352.461,"end":3370.893,"text":"那也有人講是說如果不開放再多增加專案的外勞的話臺灣公共工程這兩三年會停滯非常嚴重這已經不是說哪一個政黨執政的問題因為建設不分藍綠所以我現在才請教你比較上位尤其你又是管全國的公共工程我們要確定說到底有沒有需求"},{"start":3371.613,"end":3373.075,"text":"我相信勞動部他應該有掌握全面需求他才會做這個政策。"},{"start":3390.188,"end":3408.256,"text":"那我現在說明的是營造業的部分其實勞動部是供給方啊照理講你才是需求方你是公共工程嘛你是需求方需要那麼多的勞工來做所以你應該是告訴我們說你的需求有多少勞動部要來補足你的需求勞動部協調本勞如果本勞不夠勞動部引進外勞"},{"start":3412.438,"end":3414.64,"text":"但是目前10萬個印度外勞移工他們是希望是用作營造嗎?"},{"start":3428.979,"end":3445.125,"text":"他們不是看護他們不是其他的啊我營造的部分以原來才4000個外勞現在已經引進到將近2萬1萬多個外勞應該目前來看是還可以夠的啊主委好是不是也給本市一個資料"},{"start":3445.945,"end":3473.545,"text":"告訴我們說現在我們目前你掌握因為我之前我記得之前你都有定期開會我們現在重大工程的一個追蹤管考進度那給本席這個資料可以吧就目前到底有哪些重大工程留標幾次那現在辦理什麼樣的一個進度至少也讓我們國人知道我們公共工程委員會持續都有在監控國家的重大工程建設好不好可以好謝謝主委好謝謝好謝謝紅木可委員"},{"start":3476.215,"end":3487.257,"text":"下一位請李昆哲委員發言謝謝主席,請一下吳主委吳主委請"},{"start":3495.273,"end":3511.953,"text":"委員你好主委你好每一次的公共工程委員會的質詢在委員會一再的提醒督促公共工程委員會必須針對職災對於勞工的保護必須要提出更具體有效的一個作為"},{"start":3512.914,"end":3527.468,"text":"這是我對公共工程委員會一個最基本的期待公共工程委員會除了公共工程的品質以及完成之外最重要在整個過程之中對勞工的保護必須要作為國家的一個典範"},{"start":3528.769,"end":3556.054,"text":"我們來看2022年有關於勞動部職安署所做的一個全國職災的一個統計那全國這樣的一個職災的死亡啊竟然達到320人這是近5年來最高那其中營建業達到156人佔了48.7%當然這是全國所有的職災那公共工程也是在裡面的一環"},{"start":3557.074,"end":3566.481,"text":"那2022年職業這種職災啊造成的失能傷害的人次啊累計達到一萬三千人。"},{"start":3567.625,"end":3593.491,"text":"2018到2022年就是說施冷的一個傷害頻率由1.27提升到1.49當然主委也知道重大職障的類型裡面墜落跟滾落佔了48%就是說重大職障的原因我們來看就是不安全的設備或者是動作造成離家的人數其實達到96%"},{"start":3596.547,"end":3625.354,"text":"那其實公共工程委員會我們的公共工程絕大部分就是陸海空的交通建設或者是相關的管線的一個建設的工作那這樣的工作其實是屬於營建類就是屬於最危險的這樣的一個工作的類型那我不曉得主委一再督促你們我們看到公共工程違反治安法第6條"},{"start":3627.486,"end":3643.086,"text":"二零二二年達到一萬七千一百六十九件這是公共工程。然後呢二零二三年一月到十月違反治安法已經達到一萬兩千八百四十五件。"},{"start":3644.264,"end":3664.332,"text":"那樣態還是集中於違反這個第6條就是沒有符合規定的必要安全設備與措施或者是違反23條沒有訂定職業安全衛生的管理計畫也沒有設置安全衛生管理及自動的檢查人員"},{"start":3666.496,"end":3688.873,"text":"主委我再提醒你我們重大職災今年9月到9月為止公共工程重大的職災已經有21件而且造成離災的人數有22名到9月為止主委我們公共工程委員會嚴重的失職沒有辦法去保護勞工來說明一下"},{"start":3690.884,"end":3710.877,"text":"我對李委員一直以來都在關心職安的問題,這點我非常的佩服。那麼秉會也一直以來都很重視這個問題,比方說像我們的相關的金子獎等等,把職災問題列為第一個考量,一旦有發生我們就不容許他能夠來得獎。"},{"start":3712.498,"end":3731.133,"text":"那麼在平時方面也一再列為查核跟要求但是沒有具體的成效啊你還是造成重大職障21件你還是造成今年到9月為止已經造成22名的公共工程的這樣的一個勞工啊失去性命"},{"start":3732.895,"end":3736.617,"text":"所以這個部分剛剛我講說沒有辦法讓這樣的一個成效能夠來這個這個這個降低下來我們也覺得很遺憾喔。"},{"start":3750.843,"end":3768,"text":"議案是什麼嗎?你們能夠做的改進是什麼?如果要我們來講的話就是在執行機關在進行工程這個施工的時候沒有進到這個應該執案法規定的應該辦理的時間。我認為還是要嚴懲啊。純粹僥倖的心態。還是要嚴懲我們來看啊公共工程的這個資安啊必須要加強。"},{"start":3774.767,"end":3792.314,"text":"我們看公共工程最違反的、最常違反的類型與重大職障的主因、不安全的動作或設備其實有高度的關聯。那我們公共工程施工查核常見的缺失統計也凸顯這個工程的現場危險不合法規的情況屢見不鮮。"},{"start":3798.783,"end":3825.488,"text":"一直沒有辦法去處理一直沒有辦法有明顯的改善那公共工程委員會我認為是嚴重失職我再一次的這樣嚴肅的強調我們會來強化這方面的這個我必須具體要求公共工程委員會應該針對公共工程必須確保勞工要受完整的職安訓練這個是最基本的"},{"start":3826.397,"end":3847.098,"text":"另外要要求僱主依法訂立職安的管理計畫。另外要加強對公安的這樣的一個現場的安全性考核。來主委說明一下。這個部分我們會來把它列為將來在工地的查核或進度的要求上面第一個所要的工作。這個是"},{"start":3850.034,"end":3866.75,"text":"提出具體的一個計畫然後具體的時程以及改善的一個目標我們能降低多少職災降低多少這樣的一個失能甚至是失去生命每一個勞工都是每一個家庭的重要的一個靠山"},{"start":3867.651,"end":3886.223,"text":"我將會把相關的廠商跟機關列入管控統計來要求的對象。現在公部門啊,面對治安的這樣的一個威脅,我們看民間啊,民間當然要各自加強他們的治安的防護,政府也應該要提供協助。那政府部門啊,"},{"start":3887.384,"end":3887.604,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":3902.674,"end":3919.386,"text":"另外我們面對資安的供給威脅是非常的大。近三年政府部門的資安事件遭受供給也逐年的增加。然後資安的威脅類型當然有掃描刺探類以及"},{"start":3920.066,"end":3925.808,"text":"閱讀委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3946.897,"end":3969.024,"text":"那其實我們來了解問題就是說資安採購面對兩大難題就政府的採購類型多元那資通安全的採購它涉及高度的專業對不對但是採購人員未必具有資通安全的相關背景那導致我們採購的資安的服務或者是產品沒有辦法達到資安的需求"},{"start":3969.904,"end":3997.485,"text":"那資安採購的爭議就是需求者跟資訊設計的專業領域是不同的那提出的需求跟設計的方機與專業所設計的軟體最後啊常常不符合這個彼此的需要來左右準章說明謝謝委員的指教那對於我們資安的採購方面我們做了兩個事情就資安委員這邊資料所呈現的一個是資安一個是採購的爭議的部分"},{"start":3999.887,"end":4023.087,"text":"那治安的部分呢我們協同這個資訊這個這個數位部那麼來訂定這些指引跟相關規定也已經到各個地方政府到各個機關去做說明那麼讓他們了解怎麼樣防範資訊安全的這個作業另外採購爭議方面就剛剛委員所提到的其實採購的這個爭議在資訊方面是在"},{"start":4026.596,"end":4054.275,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4054.355,"end":4061.426,"text":"那優化機關與業者的締約,就是說我們要援引敏捷式的開發合約的一個範本。"},{"start":4063.079,"end":4083.321,"text":"二、確保合約在固定時間、固定的成本下進行,但是要保有工作範圍的靈活與彈性,為現金軟體開發常見的一個締約方式。另外就是將相關措施提升位階,就是要修正政府採購法。"},{"start":4084.562,"end":4107.199,"text":"那這次的工程會公布的作業指引其實是類似行政命令的做法而已那並沒有強制的一個強制力這個部分還是要修改相關的政府採購法另外也要相關措施提升它的一個位階就是提升採購人員的一個資安的專業我還是要強調"},{"start":4109.042,"end":4134.52,"text":"公共工程委員會對於資安的相關的這些採購的處理有比過去稍微進步一點點但是呢他仍然還是一個過渡的措施還是要有一個更精進更完善的一個處理主委最後讓你說謝謝委員提出現在一個具體的建議跟看法我們會按照這個方向納入來考量讓他更精進更安全更沒有爭議這個要"},{"start":4137.199,"end":4138.92,"text":"謝謝主席,邀請吳主委。好,主委請。"},{"start":4172.93,"end":4179.597,"text":"謝謝主委,今天是我對你最後一次的質詢,倍感珍惜。"},{"start":4181.437,"end":4204.664,"text":"事事然料所謂租行無常租法無我想不到我比你早畢業我們都來自宜蘭主委2017年就任到現在6年多了都在工作崗位上戰戰兢兢事實上我也是一樣每天一大早從宜蘭趕來台北立法院"},{"start":4207.116,"end":4208.317,"text":"議員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告案計6案。"},{"start":4220.851,"end":4246.403,"text":"在你上任之初第一次蘇院長總書詢的時候我就建議蘇院長應該針對中央跟地方一些重大的建設設置協調匯報的機制當時陳某蘇院長一口就答應了那會後委指定你來負責宜蘭縣的中央地方建設匯報協調"},{"start":4248.615,"end":4277.42,"text":"我算了一下你總共召開這個匯報召開33次可以講說這幾年來宜蘭縣重大建設都沒有延宕都不是因為人的因素延宕那我們一起合作推動很多事情這中間包括地方事實上這個學校匯報不只是重大建設連小市一個人事的一個"},{"start":4279.56,"end":4301.572,"text":"這個組織的調整,或者是小製濃水路的改善,醫院新政府都提出來。等於說相當程度我們中央協助醫院新政府推動很多建設。那因為很多重大建設我都有列管的習慣。那主委在總主席的時候也聽到我拿了這個表。"},{"start":4304.407,"end":4328.835,"text":"這個表是我從去年開始列管總共15項有關在執行或未來即將要執行推動的一個一連線的重大建設那我們在去年就開始列管我記得在今年3月1號我們交通委員會就安排去看這些重大建設然後在6月份的時候"},{"start":4330.452,"end":4349.804,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4350.111,"end":4351.392,"text":"議員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":4366.425,"end":4383.845,"text":"一點一滴啦,我這裡也沒辦法很詳細來講。總是在宜蘭這方面我們感謝主委大力來推動,這個讓我很感動。如果沒有宜蘭縣、沒有我們公共工程委員會主委這樣計細米餘,"},{"start":4386.54,"end":4415.278,"text":"而且非常有效率的督導來推動我相信這些工作沒有辦法那麼順利那我們一起能夠在這裡合作6年那我覺得這個已有榮焉啦藉這個地方感謝代表一連線鄉親感謝你那今年4月的時候我在這裡有執行這個諸委有關於清水大甲門跟楊一楊大復一二期工程一再的流標"},{"start":4416.892,"end":4442.801,"text":"我們很擔心,我們經過一代努力,今年這兩項重大建設終於在今年9月都順利的發包出去了。我在這裡特別表示感謝,所以這個等於階段性的一個動工完成是我一個目標。我這裡提到五年七千億,我這裡列管了,我這七千億為什麼五年從今年開始算?"},{"start":4444.117,"end":4460.933,"text":"到未來4年,大概這7000例會發包、會動工的案子。這個不是我的承諾,是政府對人民的承諾。我是深為民代表要求來執行。所以謝謝主委,希望主委以後繼續來督導、推動。"},{"start":4467.779,"end":4495.606,"text":"那我從很多書面上的資料看起來這個因為疫情物價波動這個人力短缺讓很多工程飆不出去那我在這裡也希望說這個工程會也能夠密切掌握這個原物料的價格然後呢督辦督導一些主辦單位能夠更省慎訂定這個招標的企業這個我想很重要就是說這個"},{"start":4497.586,"end":4525.458,"text":"不但要能夠有適時的調控物價、掌握物價的一個變動,而且能夠何時來編列預算,或者一再的話等於說在追加預算或者是在變更,那個行政程式是比你重新做一次還難得麻煩。我們楊道副業12年來終於完成了,就是因為當時,"},{"start":4527.148,"end":4549.746,"text":"沒有處理好,延宕12年。所以這個是蠻令人遺憾的事情。我說很多事情我們真的是要...既然是政府,就是要未雨綢繆,為人民之先嘛。所以我在這裡,我在想說這個...我提醒就好了,因為時間的關係啦。這個很多這個順利結標的經費比這個...這個..."},{"start":4559.272,"end":4577.487,"text":"這個經費都比原來多很多。那兩次以上流標的案件也比這個重新標出去的多。這個要改善。然後我看了一下這個110年度這個"},{"start":4584.993,"end":4598.566,"text":"兩次流標佔五分之一,到111年,主委我們流標佔兩次流標以上佔三分之一。110年是五分之一,111年是佔三分之一,我自己就有表。"},{"start":4609.311,"end":4623.295,"text":"所以這個就是流標不斷流流標所以要核實來編列預算掌握這個物價的調整第二點就是說我們這個公共工程採購案招標的次數你看一下111年度這個"},{"start":4628.061,"end":4629.402,"text":"三次以上結標案主委員增加。"},{"start":4655.236,"end":4682.913,"text":"主委一再宣示說疫情之後這個比疫情的時候好很多事實上這個我們在今年8月份也有針對營建外老做一些開放可是主委你看一下111年是263次以上招標到今年我們這樣112年到今年還是23這個23比之前疫情之前還高"},{"start":4684.096,"end":4710.873,"text":"表示說我們現在這個機制還是可以有空間再調整可以掌握得更好這個是我提醒你能夠督促就是說怎麼樣合適來編列預算不會編得很保守後來不得不追加那個行政程式而且對人民是沒辦法交代因為你沒辦法如期如止來完工你最後一點我想說這個預算追加"},{"start":4713.194,"end":4738.187,"text":"這個不要把它變成常態。那物價慢慢趨於穩定,我們應該這個把它掌控好。不要把這個大家工作人員很忙,一直在辦預算追加案。那我再提醒一下,我們第二行政中心一再延宕。那現在政府跟廠商互相指責啦。"},{"start":4739.871,"end":4757.037,"text":"我們宜蘭縣的那個第二行政中心那這個就發生到這種情況是這個不但是影響整個縣政府在執行公權力的一個威信甚至廠商公安這個指責這個業務碗碗不知草"},{"start":4765.418,"end":4783.363,"text":"因為現政府會依合約來撥款2.5億元。像這樣情形我覺得工程會去瞭解一下,看怎麼樣的輔導。還有我們的宜蘭現在大力推動五漁村的一個計畫,那也是延宕,這個延宕會照現在看起來會延宕兩年。"},{"start":4790.431,"end":4817.885,"text":"這個就是又是時性移民的一個問題。所以我今天就是一方面感謝啦,我後面還是要勉勵主委。這個主委在已經盡力了,但是相關單位沒有跟著帶動起來。我想公共工程委員會其實這個上行下效。公共工程主委已經做到了,底下能不能做到要去了解。"},{"start":4819.301,"end":4845.303,"text":"所有事情我們大概就是以這個標準來自我要求也要求我們相關的行政部門在公共工程方面能夠確實能夠核實來編列預算避免追加預算造成行政的困擾、耽擱那也要如期如質來完成工程我想這個是公共工程委員的責任我想最後給主委講兩句話啦我說最後一次在這裡質詢你"},{"start":4848.783,"end":4876.679,"text":"這個6年以來真的很感謝那個陳委員一路非常的支持跟鼓勵也非常支持地方的構想建設那在匯報方面我們透過學條也真的解決了一些地方的問題那就是在委員的這個主調之下我們一起在推動了一些建設那這些建設才讓他啟動後續還有很多要努力的"},{"start":4877.419,"end":4899.76,"text":"我們會繼續來關注。那另外對於後面委員所提的說應該要何時編列預算避免離會標。這個我們非常贊同。我們會查度方向來努力。謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝二部委員。二部委員一番感言啦。二部委員要離開我們了,我們很難過。我們掌聲給他送情好不好。"},{"start":4904.739,"end":4926.685,"text":"國務委員這位一直在交通委員會出現,下次還可以選嘛,還有機會啊。不過你離開我真的很難過,好吧你就安心的去吧,好不好。畢業了,修正一下。好,我們下一位請何欣辰召委,謝謝。"},{"start":4932.088,"end":4936.751,"text":"主委我一向都很關心政府的治安的問題還有能夠政府應該要協助民眾來試炸防炸打炸的問題所以這牽涉到你會想說這跟我公共工程委員會有什麼關係有很大的關係"},{"start":4961.949,"end":4963.67,"text":"公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4979.815,"end":4999.665,"text":"針對這個要編專款那採購資安防護的一個相關的設施設備那在這個因為有不同的資安的機關的資安的層級不同所以他所需要的資安的防護的設施設備還有呢他們的那個採購契約的範本的要求也會跟著不同"},{"start":5000.285,"end":5020.331,"text":"那像這個部分我請教一下主委我們現在是怎麼樣來分這個是用個案來分還是用ABC不同資安等級的機關來分還是我們怎麼樣來區分這個公共採購的時候這個不管是契約或者是相關的一個採購的問題我們怎麼來法令的一個解釋跟要求。"},{"start":5021.531,"end":5032.618,"text":"跟委員報告有關資安採購我們定次的質問是兩方面一方面是資安的安全的防護方面一方面是委員很多關心資訊採購發生很多的爭議的問題"},{"start":5037.061,"end":5055.162,"text":"那麼在資安方面我們是協同這個數位部一起訂定相關的他的這個必須從這個那個資訊安全的採購到軟體到整個安全的防護那麼協同數位部一起啊來做防護的工作"},{"start":5056.263,"end":5083.963,"text":"接下來我就要請教你是協同數位發展部那資安的部分我們現在9月25號拿到的你們的作業指引那當然我比較關心三件事情因為在這裡面你們認為說各機關所提的有關資安的中長程計畫應該按照其資訊建設經費編列一定比例的資安經費那我就要請教第一個一定比例是多少"},{"start":5084.403,"end":5111.619,"text":"那你們又怎麼樣去盤點去要求去制定那個標準第二個我們開始做了嗎因為呢我們現在正在審明年度的預算但是呢你這個作業指引是在9月25號才出來意思是說9月25號的指引出來的當下預算書各部會的預算書已經在立法院了那到底在明年度的總預算裡面各個部會有沒有按照你的指引去編列預算"},{"start":5112.932,"end":5140.409,"text":"主委,三個問題。這個的比例我們大概在5到7個百分比。那麼在計劃。5到7個百分比。那在它的編列的情形會在這個計劃的審查過程當中啊。我們會來加以做確認。那請問計劃的審查過程是誰審?他計劃審查會比方說在計劃的時候就是國發會。他會做一個聯合的審查。工程會也在裡面。會來加入。另外在基本設計我們也會來控管。"},{"start":5142.369,"end":5171.028,"text":"基本設計的部分你們會跟數位發展部來幫忙各部會嗎?的意思嗎?是這樣子嗎?來做一個確認做一個確認所以5到7%不分資安的A、B、C等級嗎?對好那再請問一下那我剛剛講的第一個9月25號的指引那那個時候呢總預算已經在立法院了那請問一下那你們這個計畫的審查之後審查過了那預算是編在明年總預算編了嗎?"},{"start":5172.91,"end":5197.032,"text":"它應該是涵蓋在總預算裡面去做一個題列。涵蓋在總預算裡面去做一個編列?對。我是建議的,主委。雖然這不是你的主職,是數位發展部。但是呢,因為公共採購是在我們公共工程委員會。那你現在是原則的指引,而且要包括很多的這個個案的特性,我再強調一次喔。每一個部會的資安等級是不一樣的喔。"},{"start":5197.532,"end":5199.894,"text":"那因為資安等級的不一樣他的資安的設施設備跟強度的要求不一樣的情況之下預算5到7%的這樣子同案式的"},{"start":5209.248,"end":5227.569,"text":"適合嗎?這個我覺得你要再去審慎的去思考一下。跟數位發展部好好的討論一下。好不好?這第一件事。第二個,到底明年的總預算裡面有沒有相關的計畫跟資安的經費。我也覺得請你去確認一下。為什麼?這位前社長我接下來要跟你問的。"},{"start":5228.63,"end":5245.04,"text":"因為呢,如果政府資訊系統裡面的資安風險沒有把它降到最低,雖然你有訂指引,雖然我要求一定要編預算要確保,但是呢,民眾期待的是什麼?我看到預算之後,我要看到什麼時候可以做到?"},{"start":5245.76,"end":5266.228,"text":"我如果可以提升政府各部會的一個資安防護,那也許我的個資就不會漏死掉,不會外洩。如果我們政府的各單位的對於市詐、房詐、賭詐可以幫民眾做得好的話,那民眾的身家財產的喪失的風險有可能就會降到最低。"},{"start":5267.108,"end":5295.861,"text":"我要的是整個要保護我們人民的生活跟他的財產所以接著最近最流行的一個詐騙簡訊叫做水費我到昨天我的後援會系統地方群組裡面還有人去收到這樣子的簡訊當時候我跟數位發展部總數位發展部在質詢的時候還有包括跟NCC在質詢的時候兩個部會的首長都跟我保證他們跟各地方對不起各大的"},{"start":5296.661,"end":5316.667,"text":"полне信業者都已經協調好了只要是有關詐騙的簡訊一通都不會發的出去但是呢我很抱歉的告訴你很可惜很遺憾的到現在剛剛的那樣子的一個詐騙簡訊還在我們的各地方群組人民的手機上在流通所以呢告訴"},{"start":5318.089,"end":5343.804,"text":"我要告訴你的重點是即使是我們已經宣誓了說各電信業者有配合了簡訊的代鈔業者也已經配合了絕對不會有詐騙簡訊結果還是發生那我就問了唐鳳啊為什麼會這樣子他就跟我說唯一可以的解方是什麼解方之一就是要111政府簡訊平台然後他還跟我承諾明年1月一定會正式上線"},{"start":5345.523,"end":5374.56,"text":"可是我要問主委如果我們所有各部會的簡訊要能夠上得了111的簡訊平台系統那必須在你的電子採購網裡面必須在你的公共採購裡面是有這個111簡訊平台系統可以讓各部會下單子給數位發展部或是下單子簽契約成立了之後他才可以去發111簡訊平台系統"},{"start":5375.819,"end":5387.342,"text":"如果沒有這個過程其實講的都是空話所以主委我要求的是什麼如果要向唐鳳部長承諾的明年一月各國營事業各政府機關都能夠使用111簡訊平台系統讓我們的國人看到這個簡訊就知道這個是真的政府單位國營事業發的簡訊不是假的"},{"start":5400.586,"end":5424.495,"text":"那這個111簡訊平台系統要在公共採購網上要在電子採購裡面讓各部會的採購人員看得到啊?主委你覺得明年1月來得及嗎?既然數位部他們已經這樣的一個宣誓要執行那工程會就採購這方面的相關的數位發展部有跟你們討論過這件事了嗎?"},{"start":5425.916,"end":5447.285,"text":"有,他們有在溝通,我同意中央委員的講法,我們從這個採購端這邊的這個系統的管理來勾結把它建立起來,讓它真正能夠落實。那你需要多久的時間?明年1月唷,唐鳳部長是告訴我們唷,明年1月希望各國營、四業、各政府單位都能夠上這個111簡訊系統名牌唷。"},{"start":5449.775,"end":5467.528,"text":"我們來配合他們來...一定做得到嗎?因為我現在抓了幾個數字齁,是你們的公共採購的一個行政流程所需要的時間。我自己抓了抓了齁,數位發展部說要大概44天到50天,就快兩個月啦。現在已經11月20幾號了。"},{"start":5471.741,"end":5475.484,"text":"我們來瞭解他們的做法。我們盡量來配合。我是希望一定要做到。我希望明年一月我們不會再看到這些假的這個國營事業的簡訊然後來詐騙民眾。這讓民眾對我們政府是失去信心啦。"},{"start":5495.219,"end":5510.577,"text":"欸 成立一個數位發展部說我們是一個數位科技大國結果我們連一個詐騙簡訊我們都不能防止但現在弄了一個111簡訊平台好很好但是他要能夠上路他要能夠有用"},{"start":5511.718,"end":5528.242,"text":"他如果上不了路他如果用不了那也是白搭所以主委你的重要性是在這裡啊公共採購各部會各國營事業的採購是要從你開始啊所以要拜託你好不好明年1月好不好好以上謝謝好謝謝何欣淳召委下一位請陳江華委員發言"},{"start":5542.79,"end":5545.692,"text":"主委,在今年的9月8號,您有親自率隊到宜蘭深溝水源生態園區,對不對?對。那這個滋養22萬人用水,還有1600公頃用養農地的灌溉用水的地下水庫,我想"},{"start":5572.262,"end":5591.758,"text":"這是我們宜蘭的一個特色,而且是非常珍貴,雖然每天的這個出水是10萬噸以內,我想這個保護非常重要,保育非常重要,主委說是不是?"},{"start":5593.86,"end":5597.541,"text":"主委應該對地下水跟浮流水的差別是非常"},{"start":5621.952,"end":5622.012,"text":"閱讀委員會主席"},{"start":5631.937,"end":5660.674,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":5660.814,"end":5661.856,"text":"因為這邊要畫自然水保護區比較困難。"},{"start":5677.959,"end":5678.079,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":5694.309,"end":5694.869,"text":"議員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":5709.62,"end":5726.15,"text":"大的方向朝化石自來水保護區這個是對的但這個程序會影響比較冗長是那我是覺得可以做的要先做就以剛剛深溝園區來講他是屬於南陽溪的救火道"},{"start":5726.971,"end":5756.732,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":5756.972,"end":5757.092,"text":"議員會主席。"},{"start":5786.423,"end":5801.93,"text":"則是針對這個項目那目前也是只有參考依據那如果這樣的實施下去你認為成效會怎麼樣?謝謝委員一直以來都很關心這個方面的這個生態的保護"},{"start":5803.154,"end":5828.289,"text":"那我們也非常的重視那麼這個部分呢我們以前是從施工的時候才去去碰觸到這個問題我們現在已經拉前到不斷是拉倒設計甚至於計畫的時候就應該去考慮這個問題好那現在就是因為在剛剛提到的沒有罰則拘束力也沒有建立苛責的機制沒有苛責機制那2050淨零碳排雖然"},{"start":5829.77,"end":5858.353,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":5859.266,"end":5859.426,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":5872.748,"end":5894.885,"text":"主委你怎麼看呢?這個部分我們現在準備從這一個公共工程的設計的方面採購方面就來著手。就是在設計的時候就應該去考量到盡量減少使用增加碳排量大的一個材料或工法。工程會好像要階段性以材料面的。對。"},{"start":5895.686,"end":5895.726,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":5911.874,"end":5939.619,"text":"在公共工程先把它制度面建起來,然後到2030年就要減30了,可能才來得及。主委你覺得是嗎?我們會從源頭就開始。就是說這個可能要全面的,不僅是只是從材料面。那我舉一個例子,譬如說現在SRF,因為我們要有自主能源,或者是要有更多再利用,循環利用,但是SRF主要是塑膠類的。"},{"start":5940.879,"end":5967.229,"text":"所以塑膠類它用作能源,它其實也有排碳,也有排碳。那本席有跟那個經濟部說這個不是再生能源,因為它是燒塑膠嘛,燒化石燃料,那怎麼會是再生能源。所以也請公共工程能夠,公共工程會能夠將這個部分也納入,譬如說它減碳,它排碳多少,減碳多少,也一定要來做訂定,可以嗎?主委。"},{"start":5969.186,"end":5997.49,"text":"再來就是永續這個部分,綠色採購、慢向永續的採購。我們知道如果用公共採購的力量來執行、來推動,應該是會力量更大。歐盟有一套綠色公共採購的標準,他們的GDP標準涵蓋產品認證等等。這些就是需要把永續循環原則納入標準的要求。"},{"start":5998.39,"end":6005.457,"text":"則建議綠色公共採購標準。則建議綠色公共採購標準。則建議綠色公共採購標準。則建議綠色公共採購標準。則建議綠色公共採購標準。則建議綠色公共採購標準。則建議綠色公共採購標準。則建議綠色公共採購標準。"},{"start":6022.412,"end":6051.242,"text":"那這個部分我想可以促進產業共生跟循環生態系統的這樣的一個整個全面性的制度面能夠讓永續更實質的落實。那請問主委是不是可以來研擬來推動。好,我們來納入來考量。好,那是不是可以把書面報告提交給我國會辦公室。那也希望也可以交委會了。好,那最後就是有一個"},{"start":6053.043,"end":6070.513,"text":"針對活化閒置空間的議題我們知道工程會稱閒置公共工程空間以活化減少但是卻趕不上新增文子館的產生那請問主委如何來避免我們中央跟地方的工程"},{"start":6071.26,"end":6072.46,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6099.346,"end":6124.728,"text":"好那最後再跟主委請教就是那個營建工程土石方還有以前叫廢土那現在就是費用的關係本系也召開公聽會就是如果能夠將營建剩餘土石方能夠用比較把它朝國有化就是"},{"start":6126.749,"end":6151.718,"text":"國產國家的資產這樣的角度然後他們進這個土資場收費比較低就像比照進台北港的公共工程進台北港的那個價錢那他們自付運費然後送去的話這樣就可以避免去倒在農地啊倒在那個濕地啊或者是被當作事業廢棄物的"},{"start":6153.154,"end":6153.735,"text":"閱讀委員會主席"},{"start":6164.997,"end":6191.936,"text":"好好的來推動這樣的一個方向。好,非常謝謝陳委員一直在關心這一塊。那這塊真的是問題非常的嚴重。你剛剛講台北港為例。今天如果沒有台北港把遠崎建設提早來這個吸納這個土石的話,那恐怕台北都會區有非常的嚴重。他現在已經進了三、四千萬方的土方進去。"},{"start":6192.596,"end":6208.728,"text":"主委,因為中南部也很嚴重,其實很多還是農地都被破壞了。所以可不可以盡快加快,就是讓民間的他們願意進土地廠費用降低,然後不要讓他們被亂倒。好,謝謝張華委員。下一位請陳素悅委員發言。"},{"start":6228.356,"end":6228.517,"text":"吳主委請"},{"start":6238.789,"end":6262.194,"text":"委員你好主委早安我們知道工程會就是政府採購的主管機關那重要的業務當然就是這個修訂政府採購法跟範本讓這個相關的部會有依循的一個法律讓整個採購的流程可以更完善然後也避免這個弊端那我們也知道就是說其實"},{"start":6263.635,"end":6275.036,"text":"我在地方常常會遇到,其實很多的業務單位,就是發報單位,他們也很怕遇到得標的廠商,就是不良的廠商,擺爛。"},{"start":6276.485,"end":6295.125,"text":"那其實也有廠商他也很怕遇到這個刁難的這個業主單位所以其實這樣的狀況下其實後來很多工程也會衍生一些爭議就是也經歷的情況所以我們知道工程會有另外一個重要的一個業務也就是工程爭議的一個調處"},{"start":6296.742,"end":6321.872,"text":"這個部分那我們從公共工程委員會的一個統計資料來看就是說以最近這三年2020、2021、2022年就是我們有收到的這個申請調解的這個案子跟後來我們結案的這樣子的一個統計的數字我們看出來平均大概調解成立的這個比例大概有八成左右"},{"start":6322.776,"end":6335.127,"text":"那就這個部分那等於是說還有兩層是調解無法成功的那這部分我們工程會有沒有去分析瞭解說在這個沒有成功的兩層大概是什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":6337.334,"end":6366.284,"text":"沒有成功來達成共識的部分應該是雙方的認知差距太大沒有能夠來同意這裡面我們還是在繼續我們以前就他們不成立我們就算了現在我們已經做到不成立我們仍然要提出我們的建議跟方案讓他能夠進一步去採用如果再不行那主要走入另外一個程序走"},{"start":6367,"end":6391.817,"text":"那通常就是凍結不成的話,他們可能就是會走入這個訴訟的一個程序嘛。仲裁或訴訟。仲裁或者是訴訟。那事實上其實很多公共工程啊,如果說衍生爭議的時候,就是會造成這個工程的一個延宕。那造成工程的延宕事實上喔,對於,如果是公務機關的話,對公務機關的形象其實是傷害蠻大的啦。"},{"start":6392.137,"end":6409.671,"text":"一般民眾不會去了解說這個工程延宕到底是發生了什麼問題或者是發生了什麼爭議那以我的選區就是這個田中火車站他的一個這個無障礙設施跟這個電梯工程的一個發包"},{"start":6410.692,"end":6427.738,"text":"那這個工程嚴當很久了那整個這個車站外觀就是它的圍籬一直圍著那也造成地方鄉親在搭車的時候抱怨因為下雨天的時候等於他們就是沒有一個遮雨的一個地方所以非常的一個不方便"},{"start":6428.598,"end":6443.012,"text":"那這個工程延待很久然後甚至很多年輕的學生也在這個社就是網路社群有留言啊曾經有一個學生他說他從他讀大學搭火車出外讀書到他畢業了"},{"start":6446.014,"end":6467.664,"text":"這個委理都還沒拆。可見這個延宕超過4年以上了。我覺得他講得很貼切可是也很諷刺。那針對這樣子一個狀況因為目前據我了解他們是業主單位跟廠商已經進入這個司法程序在互相提告。那這個這一件案子我們工程會有收到他們的申請條處嗎?"},{"start":6470.195,"end":6491.569,"text":"呃,像這樣的情況,我覺得如果現在還存在那邊,照講我們在列管上面應該會發現。是。如果沒有發現的話,我們應該,我們會馬上來了解,來協助他處理。有時候不一定說等到爭議完才能夠去動,也可以採取相關的策略,所以先把工程先把它做一個進行,也可以。"},{"start":6492.239,"end":6520.541,"text":"是因為目前他們就是已經在進行司法的一個互相提告的一個狀況所以對廠商來說他不猜為理因為他說他這個是他證據保全的一個狀態可是這樣的話對整個這個外觀形象或者是旅客進出是非常的一個不方便然後其實對政府的形象傷害也很大因為旅客鄉親他不知道說這個發生這樣子的延宕到底是什麼狀況"},{"start":6521.894,"end":6537.734,"text":"這個如果我們沒有能夠去發現這個問題去協助處理是我們的不應該不對的地方。那今天委員提出來我馬上會加以了解來協助處理。不應該等到訴訟完成再來解釋說不能這樣子。"},{"start":6538.294,"end":6556.614,"text":"對阿不能這樣子喔是那因為其實這個田中火車站之外我們也看到媒體報導像其實台南火車站也是一樣有這樣子的一個延宕的狀況也是延宕5年了所以我覺得說對這樣子一個工程的一個延宕對我們來說我們一般人都會覺得非常的一個不應該"},{"start":6557.875,"end":6585.292,"text":"厲普不應該所以就這個部分我們希望工程會能夠主動去了解然後也能夠主動去就是讓這個工程能夠趕快順利再進行那另外本席想請教一下因為最近有看到就是媒體報導就是有這個消防員在臉書爆料就是說有關這個消防車的一個採購就是連續8年都是由這個同一家廠商得標將近8"},{"start":6587.073,"end":6587.293,"text":"議員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":6608.965,"end":6619.95,"text":"呃,像這樣的狀況,我們照講應該在整個機盒或茶盒上面會去發現,那竟然沒有發現,我們會來加以了解。"},{"start":6620.655,"end":6650.098,"text":"是因為我覺得說這個消防車真的是非常重要因為我們想像說如果當發生火災的時候消防車出情結果到現場如果說發生故障這水壓不足沒有辦法這個及時的來救火我覺得這個是非常嚴重的一個問題那另外根據這個消防弟兄的爆料就是說在這個這個廠牌的消防車他的這個就是鋼片上竟然沒有廠牌"},{"start":6650.718,"end":6652.599,"text":"謝謝陳素月委員的發言。下一位請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":6689.222,"end":6691.891,"text":"謝主席,要邀請吳主委。吳主委請。"},{"start":6701.339,"end":6713.902,"text":"主委,本席在大概兩年多前有爭取到我們臺南一項重大的工程,就是安平跨港大橋。但兩年來,這個橋樑的工程已經到這個月,到11月已經流標了10次。那怎麼辦?預算,給主委參考一下,從最早的12.3億,12億3千萬,"},{"start":6729.656,"end":6753.642,"text":"到現在最新核定已經到21億9500萬還標不出去那到底什麼原因我們重大工程一直都標不出去主委你記得我曾經在這裡跟你提說過去工程會到我們委員會來報告一定會提一個數字就是工程的那個結標率"},{"start":6755.643,"end":6783.38,"text":"但我說那時候工程標錄區的比例都非常高都九成多啦因為你把所有的採購都算進來了連那個十萬塊你也算啦幾十萬你也算啦那實際上我們關心的應該是重大工程假設我就以一億為門檻啦一億以上的工程的絕標率啦就很低了啦我給你參考啦像一億以上的絕標率啊逐年下降"},{"start":6784.961,"end":6811.085,"text":"現在公共工程都沒辦法處理啦。那這個啊,負面就影響到國家重大建設的推動。你看一億以上的絕標率也就很難看了啦。以前一定會提的絕標率啊,這一次工程會來,今天來報告就不提啦。不要提啦。不好看啦。那主委,你是專家耶。現在絕標率也不到七成了,已經跌破七成了。"},{"start":6812.592,"end":6834.246,"text":"所以只要拿一以上的重大為門檻來一刀切啦,看起來的決票率就非常難看了。那工程會今年乾脆啊,這一個會期乾脆不提決票率,今天就沒有提決票率。但是工程會只有寫一道,有寫到啦。決票率低啊,那工程會就會討論嘛。開了300多場的專案會議,說要協調處理。"},{"start":6840.485,"end":6864.88,"text":"蓋三百多場在嚇死人了,那要有效果吧,你要好過,要不然你去那幾間會議要做什麼,飆不出去就要來開會。所以我今天就用我們台南啦,就本席可以說最關心的啦,因為這個對於我們安平到市區,尤其解決安平舊部落的交通阻塞,這個是非常重要的。"},{"start":6866.14,"end":6889.19,"text":"讓以後啊如果車輛南北你不需要你不是要到安平舊部落去你就可以不必去塞在舊部落裡面你可以直接由這條跨港大橋到台南市的那個永華路你就直接進到安平的那個新市區就武崎這邊來這個解決安平的交通擁捨啊非常重要的工程留標10次啊主委你知道這個事情嗎知道"},{"start":6894.203,"end":6895.847,"text":"那主委有沒有什麼解方啊?怎麼辦?"},{"start":6898.313,"end":6923.695,"text":"謝謝委員的指教在流標7次的時候在今年的6月我曾經召開過一次檢討會議也提醒市政府要做一些處理這中間可能有一個問題比較重要的就是經費的這個不足的部分內政部這邊到最近才給予確定的活下去"},{"start":6924.375,"end":6953.501,"text":"那這個部分志東堅他有做一些檢向等等那麼可能也是造成這個廠商果子不淺的原因之一。主委我跟你講一般人都會直接想說因為你預算變太低啦所以飆不出去嘛我跟你做個參考啦這個工程已經從12億3千萬追加到21億9千5百萬追加比例快要八成了追加了百分之七十八"},{"start":6954.52,"end":6981.588,"text":"一樣標不出去。那為什麼會這樣呢?這就是你們要來協助解決的嘛。但是啦,這個不是單一現象。我來去查,是不是橋樑大家都不想做?欸,看起來好像是這樣喔。你要記得有一個海事工程,就淡江大橋。這個也留標了7次。也追加很多的那個工程預算。"},{"start":6983.611,"end":7008.34,"text":"現在因為公共工程以前大家印象中公共工程大家想要做很多人要搶甚至會發生弊案等等現在我看是相反公共工程沒有人要做所以就廠商來講我有很多比較好做的公共工程可以去承攬陸地工程比較好做對不對我必須冒險做這種海事工程"},{"start":7009.639,"end":7037.243,"text":"那海事工程如果你再加上預算不足那絕對沒有人來啦因為海事工程啊簡單講啦我隨便請教一下專家啦他說那當然啦因為你有很多你難以預料的變數就是風險啦例如潮汐啊季風啊或者再來一個颱風那對工程的那個風險啊他們很難估算啦所以通常都不大願意做啦"},{"start":7038.68,"end":7044.527,"text":"憲政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。憲政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。憲政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7059.659,"end":7087.886,"text":"最常發生的就是預算估太低嘛那預算不想估太低地方政府都按照我們工程會的證明工程會有一本聖經啊公共建設工程經費估算編列手冊啦公共工程委員一定按照你這個去編啦對不對是不是這樣子都按照我們工程會寫的這本啦可是我們這樣的估算啦就是說這個官方的標準價格跟現在的市價"},{"start":7089.5,"end":7116.356,"text":"有沒有落差?這個工委員報告齁,如果他完全依照這樣的一個價格編列是不對的。如果有落差,啊你當然撇不出來啊。那公務呢,他當然會比較保守嘛,因為我為什麼要多編預算,當然要說我圖利,當然要說我為什麼10塊可以做,我要寫12塊。其實市價跟你這本的手冊啊,以最近來看,我認為工程會要動態去檢討啦。"},{"start":7118.775,"end":7147.68,"text":"就是說因為市價是浮動的嘛啊你如果是很僵硬的因為我看到幾乎流標的第一個想法就是這幾年台灣的人工啊材料費都漲價嘛漲的速度很快所以你都跟不上嘛實際上本來預算在編列就會趨向比較保守啦啊你每次喔你編編的料然後再回來物條各位注意看喔現在物條啊變成公共工程的必要階段"},{"start":7149.059,"end":7171.89,"text":"其實出現誤條是不健康是不對的啦因為你編了預算為什麼會誤條就是你流標嘛還是他做不下去他來跟你協商那表示你當時編了預算就出問題你編太低送回來重新誤條預算提高再開標一次第一個浪費的就是時間了是不是這樣"},{"start":7174.383,"end":7198.194,"text":"我們這個預算的編類是有一個一般性跟特殊性的編類方式。他應該按照個別的個案的方式。如果像你講的這樣子的話就不會常常在那邊誤條了。還有一般公共工程在編他不會去編潛藏風險。其實你應該考量特殊工程的潛藏風險。像我剛講的那種橋樑工程海事工程。"},{"start":7199.369,"end":7214.598,"text":"因為他可能有一些潮汐、颱風、季風的影響等等,不管了。就是說你每一個工程的話,現在工業也絕對不敢寫這種前章風險,因為很難量化,或者說工程會你這邊沒有一個指導,他們也不會編啊。這個是台灣市區設計的。啊所以現在怎麼辦呢?像我們台南這個跨港工程,留標10次預算追加了八成還標不出去。"},{"start":7230.765,"end":7240.114,"text":"主委有沒有辦法那你怎麼辦有沒有辦法協助然後每次請教工程會在檢討開那個檢討會公共工程的檢討會就是某一個工程為什麼飆不出去啦那工程會的第一句話一定寫"},{"start":7247.725,"end":7262.76,"text":"公共工程委員會主要為主辦機關應作為而未作為。第一句就塞給地方政府,或是推給承辦單位。這個不是推,變成他的責任了。是啊。這樣你公共工程委員會幹嘛?我要你公共工程委員會幹嘛?我們要的是答案,當然啦。主辦單位要負最大責任,這個我同意。對啊。"},{"start":7272.614,"end":7287.03,"text":"我們要的是結果嘛,你要讓它可以順利的開票出去,看到底什麼地方出問題嘛。你自己寫的施政報告,開了300多次會議,1億以上的工程結票率不到7成,這樣有什麼用?我也不曉得你是專家啦,可不可以幫我們談談一下?"},{"start":7295.468,"end":7299.229,"text":"安平這個跨港大橋。你說錢不夠,也追加了很多啦。12億3追加到18億,追加到21億9,快要22億了。"},{"start":7313.342,"end":7338.321,"text":"你看那個追加的幅度12億3千萬快到22億好不好主委那這個安平跨港大橋我們請工程會專案來協助台南市政府在經過10次的流標以後以追加的將近8成的預算為什麼還標不出去為什麼請協助解決這個困難好不好好謝謝吳主委謝謝主席好謝謝林俊憲委員下一位請魯明哲委員發言"},{"start":7353.926,"end":7363.593,"text":"好,謝謝主席,有請吳澤成主委。好,請主委。喂,主委好。喂,你好。"},{"start":7365.874,"end":7384.993,"text":"幾天前,特別交通委員會下鄉,請部長跟幾位局長到現場。我覺得這些公務員有點感慨,跟以前實在差很多。因為有些工程留標太多次,"},{"start":7385.994,"end":7404.471,"text":"在整個開會之前負責這個工程的主管就跑到我旁邊說委員委我們大概什麼時候會再幾次招標這一次應該會有人來那我就跟他聊天過程中我發覺這些以公務背景的這些主管這幾年搖身一變變成業務推銷員要敲門訪客"},{"start":7409.415,"end":7435.413,"text":"拜託拜託,還失敗率可能高達九成,好不容易求到一家含著眼淚感謝。那我覺得現在確實每個委員都提到這個問題。那我想說我們有看到這個我們主委特別在訪問的時候特別有說嘛,其實大概就是這個這些情況。四大理由嘛,價格、工期、可能榜標或者過於集中。"},{"start":7436.374,"end":7463.029,"text":"一、錢不夠明明買這個就不只這個價錢你一定要編了很少錢當然大概就只有流標嘛不然可能就是品質有問題那你時間明明就不夠明明要兩年大家才可以完成你只給人家一年或一年半合約發現有綁標綁標就很多人根本根本沒辦法來嘛沒辦法來因為他可能有些東西他公司拿不到案量過於集中"},{"start":7465.7,"end":7467.047,"text":"這個因為現在交通部"},{"start":7468.274,"end":7468.955,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":7497.538,"end":7516.448,"text":"五年、六年、終於、終歸什麼繞過了、拼過了。但它價錢還守在五、六年以前這個部分。那你覺得,但是交通部就說,終於過了。但是當時變得就這個錢。我就硬著頭皮,拿五、六年以前價格硬去。"},{"start":7518.53,"end":7533.225,"text":"憲宜他們到底怎麼樣去做?怎麼樣做他才不會違法?然後也不會造成重大工程這麼多次的流標?你說一下嗎?像剛委員這種講法機關就不應該這樣你前面是幾年前的估的價格"},{"start":7533.786,"end":7549.554,"text":"您現在5、6年之後進到一個設計階段,您就要依照現在的價格去做編列,然後該修正,您要報修正。而且行政院有一個措施,您要執行的時候,因為物價的關係,您可以邊報邊進行。"},{"start":7552.57,"end":7568.842,"text":"主委我相信你們應該有三令五申或者各項訓練甚至採購人員的考證照過程中很多的觀念都有給他們但是這種工程類的巨額的採購因為源頭在這些工程人員在寫預算的時候到了採購人員那邊其實也沒有任何改的空間"},{"start":7577.688,"end":7606.361,"text":"我真的是覺得像你這個提出來這四個包括錢不夠、工期明明就不夠這些具體的這個部分因為我們發覺有很多聽起來就可以事前預防而且很多都是人為的問題可能不是刻意可能就像你剛剛說的剛剛林俊賢委員講說就按照你的標準按表操課先弄一次那剛剛像我所說的這個5、6年前的價格他也保險當時估計這樣我先弄個一兩次再說"},{"start":7607.381,"end":7620.828,"text":"議員會議長"},{"start":7621.345,"end":7649.76,"text":"保守不要違法確實每一個人都是我先用我也不管合不合理先試驗一下不行我們再來大家共同負責你跟這些第一線的人員你又怎麼樣跟他們建議我想我們除了剛剛委員建議我們盡量的在對第一線同仁做一個教育或宣導之外我未來會做一件事對於機關所長要刻意責任"},{"start":7651.496,"end":7674.114,"text":"好,機關首長,這個部分很多民選的,真的,可能有時候他要經過四年才懂,所以我倒是覺得一剛開始就有一些想法觀念的問題,要他們機關的主管跟不管財主單位、相關單位,真的,我是覺得要一個這個重新去開始這個部分。"},{"start":7677.156,"end":7704.654,"text":"我們也看到剛剛講了就是多次流標以上才決標的我們看到這幾年的一個情況事實上是持續的不斷的一個增加那今年我們看到1到10月看起來這個前面數字有減少但是你看招標7次還沒標出去的它不斷的一個增加其實剛剛這個問題之外我們再看下兩頁下一頁不要看了好"},{"start":7706.874,"end":7735.171,"text":"我擔心有一種,你說他是榜標呢?其實有時候還真的是。你說他是第一線人員,他過於謹慎呢?有時候也是。可是你知道嗎?我最近碰到很多以前啊,因為我做,以前做市長的時候,欸你們不是在做公共工程嗎?現在蓋房子去做別的,不做了。我至少最近碰到兩三個,以前做很大的,很努力的,他們現在都不做。他說不做,我不敢做了,不敢做了。兩個原因啊。"},{"start":7736.891,"end":7738.852,"text":"憲政院公共工程委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":7754.796,"end":7756.457,"text":"憲政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7779.315,"end":7779.776,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":7797.196,"end":7813.897,"text":"叫天天不應呼地地不應翻臉了因為這叫廠商主動啊不是政府廠商我就算了老實說公共工程委員會大家也知道只要得罪一次以後大概你也不要來了就已經真的準備退出了所以你看廠商主動申報就這麼多"},{"start":7815.038,"end":7841.993,"text":"如果在基層弄來弄去打來打去沒有到這個階段廠商因為還要繼續做工程忍辱偷生的狀況也不少大概是這個數字的大概50倍100倍都有可能這個我是覺得這個部分也要有一個SOP而且稍微要電腦化一點現在做公共工程那些不做的廠商跟我說你就是一約合約給他"},{"start":7845.37,"end":7861.897,"text":"就很簡單,他已經請工人了。大概整個公文跑完,驗收東稿西稿,三個月、六個月可以拿到款,叫做很正常,很正常。就他自己要,手臂要很強啦。"},{"start":7862.757,"end":7890.383,"text":"真的就這樣了那我說來來去去拖過一年就在哪裡不對再去補一下拖過一年也還算一般廠商可以忍耐的所以很多現在因為廠商難找我覺得有部分的人員還在活在以前我的招報人員會最最大大家排在門口來求我那種時代已經過去了現在變成要兼業務人員去敲門這種情況我真的是覺得這個部分"},{"start":7891.69,"end":7904.746,"text":"我聽到遇到很多手邊打電話去問你為什麼人家做完不給錢了後面馬上隔天付錢莫名其妙事情很多啦我要拜託在這個付款的期間有問題當然就不要付款嘛"},{"start":7905.868,"end":7921.015,"text":"但是沒有問題脫的這個部分我是希望工程會也能夠在時程上面去能夠協助強調做一致性的一個建議好不好剛剛吳委員我想你當過市長很清楚"},{"start":7921.815,"end":7932.021,"text":"一個機關他的態度跟解決問題的能力跟效率也是很關鍵所以這方面你們將來我剛為什麼說要對於這個機關所長要苛責就是這個問題我們會來更加注意來追蹤來判好謝謝好謝謝冷命哲委員"},{"start":7954.388,"end":7979.057,"text":"好,謝謝。接下來我們請陳雪生召委。來。好,謝謝主席。是不是請吳主委。主委長。你好。剛才魯明哲委員發言,有關很多廠商現在忍辱透聲。"},{"start":7980.796,"end":8007.961,"text":"他敢得罪這些業者嗎?得罪了以後永遠不要來了。那麼現在缺工缺料剛才這些料材料又上漲這種情況之下會衍生出很多的工程糾紛然後再加上顧問設計公司吹毛求疵所以基層也勸缺了一些基本的常識比如說"},{"start":8010.985,"end":8034.819,"text":"這個缺點補正,那個缺點補正。這個磁磚少一塊,那個玻璃又不對,尺寸也不對。那這樣子的情況之下好了,這個去補正還好。現在要求你補正10件,10件補件完了又來20件,20件完了又來30件。這個事小,宮崎啊。"},{"start":8035.984,"end":8059.424,"text":"工期給你算進去,那個工期的話那更多了。所以這樣的一個調解案件我想工程會成不出窮了,應該蠻多的。那工程會對這一部分調解案件,前面委員也執行說有20%,你們自然而然行,很像調解不成,雙方差距太大。那你工程會應該就專業的部分,"},{"start":8061.929,"end":8088.291,"text":"你們要去解決這問題啊不然下面的這一些包商啊非常的痛苦啊現在資金本來就欠缺了然後勒施工完畢拿不到錢層層的關卡我接到很多的包商的反應啊但是我們也愛莫能助啊因為政府單位講依法行政嘛齁所以主委這一方面齁我也希望你們工程會在"},{"start":8089.403,"end":8112.975,"text":"全國最高的工程解釋機關,你們要做一個公平的一個裁處。20%的案件,也希望盡量給縣政府底下基層部門一個明確的方向,讓他們好做。還有一些就是說怕,怕事情把事情都推到中央來,推到你們那邊去,那你們應該也要做一個詳細的處理。"},{"start":8114.83,"end":8140.973,"text":"這一點沒問題吧?沒有問題,我們現在對於調解的部分,如果他們溝通沒有同意,我們都會做百分之百的提出建議出來。好,還有剛才那個郡縣委員提到台南的大橋,大橋現在也追加預算了,那很多都做不起來。我在前兩個禮拜跟蔡總統一個聚會裡面,我曾經請示他,"},{"start":8142.335,"end":8169.147,"text":"有關我請問主委馬祖大橋的案子你有沒有參與?目前是在交通部他們在...我知道你們委員會有沒有參與?目前我們還在國安會在審議當中我們會參加做審查。國安會審議的時候你們有參與嗎?有。那麼我問蔡總統的時候,她說外面講說馬祖大橋要600億,"},{"start":8171.462,"end":8199.318,"text":"但是我一直跟蔡總統講,你去問一下世西工程顧問公司,他說300億足夠了。那我也問過,你看剛才有很多的公共工程沒有人標啊,十幾次都沒人標。現在我們基層很痛苦的啊,很多工程都要縣長親自出門去拜託人家來標。不要說拿回扣啊,回扣這個就免談了吧。根本沒有人來做啊,預算很低啊。"},{"start":8200.609,"end":8209.156,"text":"那我們也去問過金門大橋的事蹊東坯,我問王董,原來我們是定288億,288億連東坯他說如果300億他一定能夠做,所以也就是說你這個預算的一個工程出去以後,"},{"start":8224.568,"end":8235.303,"text":"他要有人來標啊,沒有人來標你追加以後又沒人標,這個是個問題嘛,就跟台南的工程一樣嘛。那我的意思是說,我有跟蔡總統報告啦,300億4C說絕對沒問題。"},{"start":8242.579,"end":8265.855,"text":"那麼工程廠商曾做過金門大橋的東坯他說我以前沒做過金門大橋我還沒把握我做過金門大橋以後你馬祖的大橋我更有把握了所以我就跟總統報告說如果是600億我就投降我當然要考慮到整個中央政府財政的一個結構如果300億後來總統說"},{"start":8271.877,"end":8292.607,"text":"如果是300億預算經費分10年編列,那麼技術上如果沒有問題,他原則上應該覺得會支持這個事情。那主委就你的專業的觀點,技術性目前在國內有沒有問題?應該沒有問題。沒有問題。"},{"start":8295.598,"end":8296.238,"text":"接下來我們請陳佩瑜委員發言。"},{"start":8330.789,"end":8330.93,"text":"主委"},{"start":8340.219,"end":8344.841,"text":"主委早安跟主委請教幾個問題第一個是關於這個採購法的部分感謝在您的任內通過這個第4條的修正讓藝文人士相關採購有很多的空間跟彈性可是我們要說的是還是有些問題需要有些調整因為開始實施之後其實還是有些狀況在現場實務上的運作"},{"start":8361.807,"end":8373.655,"text":"所以是不是這邊可以拜託主委兩件事情。第一個,盤整2019年修法後採用採購法4條2項案例的數量跟執行的狀況。第二個,由工程會來主動邀請文化部還有相關的利害關係人來盤點檢討2019年採購法修正後,現行的藝文採購實務上還遇到哪些困境跟問題來進行相關調整跟修正。這個部分可不可以請主委幫幫忙。"},{"start":8387.884,"end":8407.239,"text":"好,我們馬上來做。好,謝謝主委喔。那第二個關於這個體育採購其實有一些問題喔。我跟主委分享一個實際的案例跟狀況。如果我們台灣的球隊要代表國家出去打球呢,那兩個禮拜後就要出國了。可是藍協可能會說我們要用體育署的補助來出國,所以按照這個採購的法規必須要在出發前的兩個禮拜"},{"start":8410.862,"end":8437.927,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8438.067,"end":8444.034,"text":"除了在採購方面我們應該要來協助他們,因應他的狀況需要來配合他的需要來做採購。可是如果這個體育局或者是單項協會他們目前都卡在這件事情上,他們可能不像主委您對於相關的法規有這麼多的理解,您會有什麼樣的建議跟幫助?我們來了解來協助他們。"},{"start":8456.929,"end":8458.15,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":8472.082,"end":8472.262,"text":"應該沒有問題。"},{"start":8498.955,"end":8527.086,"text":"應該沒有問題好那這個部分我們辦公室也會積極再跟你們討論了好謝謝謝謝主委這麼爽快答應那再來一個問題好雖然我的投影片不見我直接說好了這其實工程會最近還有對於科技採購資安要求有一個相關的公文跟新聞嗎好我相信主委你應該很清楚那其實我要說其實不是只有科技類的標案有資安的問題其實在很多傳統的採購案也有資安的問題怎麼說呢體育署往年一直都會辦很多學生聯賽"},{"start":8528.146,"end":8550.723,"text":"在學生聯賽的時候當然就會取得學生的個資跟名單嘛我想您應該很清楚可是如果我們到相關的這個賽事網站上去看其實雖然大部分的比賽報名資料都是引導到承辦單位的網站上可是有些承辦單位他居然讓報名網頁留到第三方的民間公司去登錄而且在登錄這個資料的時候呢甚至跟"},{"start":8551.544,"end":8581.544,"text":""},{"start":8583.225,"end":8599.471,"text":"在相關你們可不可以協助各個部會在相關的採購案中關於收集處理利用各自的採購案提供相關的資安防護的建議或採購的範本設計給各個部會因為我剛剛只是跟您舉了體育署的例子可是我相信有非常多其他傳統採購案也會有類似的問題"},{"start":8602.943,"end":8603.383,"text":"好,謝謝陳本瑜委員"},{"start":8631.84,"end":8634.381,"text":"稍微請邱賢柱委員發言。"},{"start":8663.919,"end":8666.299,"text":"好,謝謝主席,我相信主委。相信主委,謝謝。"},{"start":8672.737,"end":8699.293,"text":"主委你好主委這個新竹市寡婦樓這個都更案那他的起源是光部政治專局在馬政府時代那委託內政部這個營建署辦理都更遭傷那結果在民國103年的時候內政部營建署遭傷弄得到最後只有李明一家啦通過資格審查那後來確實也拿到這個案子結果"},{"start":8700.333,"end":8727.677,"text":"當時主辦都更招商的這個營建署成鄉分署長洪家宏在106年的時候因為寡婦樓案收了這個倡議集團兩千萬的匯款以及在新竹另外兩個遠雄的案件都更案所會四千五百萬被收押那去年被臺北地院依貪污自罪條例判處八年兩個月那我要這個問主委是說政府採購法第五十條寫得非常清楚"},{"start":8728.197,"end":8755.439,"text":"有影響採購公正之違反法令行為就應該撤銷絕標終止契約跟解除契約並且追償損失那我其實就這個案子質詢過國防部那也問過這個內政部那其實到現在國防部的態度還是有非常的應該是說還是覺得非常的保留啦國防部到目前為止也都"},{"start":8756.019,"end":8779.173,"text":"沒有去處理到底是要終止契約還是解除契約那監察委員的調查也認為說這個公安部是依政府採購法來委託給內政部這是非常清楚的那工程會今天報告寫得非常清楚如果說就這個已經發生了這個政府採購法31條50條第101條的這個狀況的話"},{"start":8782.975,"end":8809.043,"text":"那根本不用等到刑事起訴或判決就應該要依行政程序法規定去做這個啟動行政調查程序那並且依個案實際請審審任何處那不受到這個刑事起訴或是判決拘束那更何況這個案件已經一審都判8年2個月了那就這個部分的話是不是國防部應該要啟動行政調查"},{"start":8810.369,"end":8835.311,"text":"跟委員報告雖然他這個案子不是用採購法他是用都更條例去進行的但我們檢視他的這一個採購相關的作業他是在招標這個的階段就可以去撤銷他的最優的這個申請對那他從那邊撤銷之後是後面就可以解約了對所以他應該去進行這個事"},{"start":8836.232,"end":8854.656,"text":"他應該進行這個事嗎?可是到目前為止,國防部的說法還是說怕被追查等等這樣的理由。第二個就是說,主委剛剛提到說這個不是依照政府採購法,但是這個恐怕有爭議,因為監委的調查報告也認為說國防部是依照政府採購法去委託給內政部。"},{"start":8856.937,"end":8872.396,"text":"那我去質詢內政部內政部的說法就是說現在內政部跟國防部之間已經沒有任何的這個委託的契約的存在了那所以應該是要國防部去做處理去審認嘛那一個"},{"start":8874.258,"end":8894.859,"text":"已經因為這個這個收賄然後被判刑那也廠商也非常清楚了他是透過行賄然後取得了這樣的一個資格而且只有這一家通過資格審查這判決書都已經寫得非常清楚了那最後他也得到這個案件了"},{"start":8895.279,"end":8911.67,"text":"那主委是不是你剛剛提到就是說他其實是在這個招標程序的時候他就可以把他取消這個最有利標的這個審查嘛那到底現在國防部依照你的看法是不是應該要馬上去跟這個廠商終止這個契約"},{"start":8916.232,"end":8941.117,"text":"國防部跟內政部之間他是一個行政委託的一個程序他不用什麼法令是這個已經很清楚了那內政部去招標才跟這個事件會有關係所以應該是要由這個國防部這邊他要去跟內政部要去要求然後我看從這邊去這個撤銷原來的這個申請人的資格然後再去做解約動作"},{"start":8942.318,"end":8960.039,"text":"對,撤銷原來的申請人資格因為他是透過行會所取得嘛對不對那這個其實非常清楚啦那就是說你今天其實有提到說這個機關不用等到起訴或是判決因為我在問國防部的時候國防部也一度跟我回答說欸委員"},{"start":8961.34,"end":8985.561,"text":"那這個現在一審而已啊那應該要到二審、三審定宴之後才來處理嘛那顯然今天這個報告裡面依照這個公共工程委員會的見解事實上你在這個不用起訴甚至判決的時候就可以依照行政程序去做行政調查了嘛那主委是不是請工程會在兩週內釐清金主寡婦樓案是否"},{"start":8987.024,"end":8992.238,"text":"應該由國防部立刻啟動行政調查並且發函給相關的部會,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":8992.952,"end":9018.526,"text":"我們來邀請兩個部會來釐清一下提供給他們比較這個做法因為你的見解連起訴可能都還沒有起訴就可以去行政調查了那他現在已經是一審已經判八年了兩個月而且其實他說什麼二審三審定讞我覺得基本上都是推託之詞因為那個判決書裡面被告都已經認罪了"},{"start":9019.861,"end":9034.639,"text":"對不對都已經這麼清楚了結果還不願意去做終止這是非常不應該的看他們也許是對法律的執行不了解或者有什麼的一個另外的考量我們把它弄得明清一下"},{"start":9035.16,"end":9056.507,"text":"好,那希望兩週之內能夠給我們一個報告,可以發函給相關機關。那主委另外一題,再兩分鐘。這個是民間公共工程委員會在11月8號發布一個道路坍塌跟臨防基礎掏空防範指引以及工程高空作業災害的防範指引,那強化"},{"start":9057.367,"end":9079.799,"text":"工程監督機制因為我國的高墜事件實在是太嚴重了除適用政府公共工程外也將民間工程納管但是從工程會的指引來看的話業者沒有落實職安相關的規定政府的監管密度不夠是最主要的問題我們也可以看到近年來營建工程業重大職災的問題很嚴重政府採購法裡面針對職安的問題"},{"start":9084.682,"end":9109.118,"text":"因依工程規模特性分析潛在施工危險編制符合職安衛法規的安全衛生圖說之規範並且量化編列安全費用等等之類的但是這樣的制度應該也要主委也要引入民間的工程而不只是公共工程那日本就有這樣的做法那我想請教主委"},{"start":9109.938,"end":9116.81,"text":"工程會是否可以研擬相關的指引去針對民間的工程的這個部分,比照日本的做法。"},{"start":9118.15,"end":9140.089,"text":"這個部分公共工程我們已經這樣在要求那民間的部分我們會來協調內政部透過他的建築法令跟建造管理來落實這個部分那請公共工程委員會兩個月內就強化民間工程職安規範跟費用編列以及企業辦理情形提出一個書面報告給本委員會"},{"start":9141.03,"end":9168.937,"text":"那最後一個就是強化汰除不良廠商的機制。那我們今天看到公共工程委員會的公共工程會的報告裡面說要運用工程履歷引進優秀廠商。因為主委其實在這個地方也一再強調就是說這個廠商的這個工程履歷是非常重要的。所以我們才會說今天主委我記得印象非常深刻主委也提到說不能夠讓其他的機關受害。"},{"start":9170.117,"end":9198.712,"text":"那事實上很多的問題的廠商卻持續的拿到政府的大案子我也覺得這個非常不解例如竹北天坑案5次坍塌最後搞出一個特斯拉掉到這個天坑裡面那賄賂竹縣官員的這樣的一個風譽建設卻最近又拿到了新竹市的最大的都更案這個建功安居的這個都更案"},{"start":9199.352,"end":9207.067,"text":"大家都非常憂心那主委就這部分的話強化泰圖不良廠商機制有沒有什麼這個精進的作為"},{"start":9208.51,"end":9228.3,"text":"我們一方面建立這些不良廠商的這個市基的一個網路的資料的把它建做起來。對。一方面要求機關在採購的時候,要去釐清確認這些不良的這個廠商,讓他不要經過評選或者納入他的這個對象。對。講這樣能夠汰除這個從讓那個優良的汰除到劣幣的部分。"},{"start":9235.904,"end":9255.82,"text":"對,就是說廠商履歷啦,我們這邊的建議就是廠商的履歷應該要納入第一個違反採購法的紀錄嘛,他都已經違反採購法多次了,那其他機關有可能會受害,那第二個就是說影響採購公正的違反法令的行為,那再來就是說違反勞基法,比如說他的這個對待勞工的這些紀錄非常不良,"},{"start":9258.542,"end":9285.189,"text":"殖安法、屢次發生的職災、高墜事件等等。性別工作平等法等等的紀錄應該都要納入廠商履歷。也請工程會在一個月內提出報告,針對強化太除不良廠商機制,如何能夠將廠商的履歷到底應該要如何納入等等,提出一個書面報告。好。謝謝主委。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。"},{"start":9292.054,"end":9292.855,"text":"三位請張祺祿委員發言。"},{"start":9308.857,"end":9325.523,"text":"委員你好主委好主委好我今天最後一個出來了主委那個我這邊是比較要請教一個比較在地性一點的問題當然也不見得是完全是但是是由我們公共工程會可以是監管就是說我先跟主委報告這個我們在"},{"start":9328.745,"end":9355.607,"text":"臺北市文山這邊有這個水源快速公路旁邊這邊有蓋一些社宅而且這個都還蠻大的住都中心在做的其實它大概就是將近就是上千戶啦其實這個我們自己在走訪的時候就發現一個大的問題是什麼其實很多的這個在地的包括里長自己都說其實不是很清楚那因為坦白說嘛地就是政府的嘛然後住都中心內政部嘛他們就蓋嘛"},{"start":9356.087,"end":9378.104,"text":"他也很坦白說啦,我們了解住都中心,他當然就是說我當然要趕快落實這個政見啊,我這個8年要20萬戶根本現在完全跳票,也現在都急著要趕快弄嘛,是沒有錯啦,可是問題就是他們跟在地的這個整體的這個溝通,很多里長甚至都不知道,就發生,原來就蓋了,就開始了。"},{"start":9378.965,"end":9403.546,"text":"所以這個我們當然知道重大公共工程都是需要經過一些不管你是環評或者社會影響評估等等就做這些事情也很坦白說啦我們在這個的制度上並不是很健全也許促參法那邊都還寫得比較仔細就是但不過促參是在歸財政部那邊如果今天有民間參與的話他在促參法裡面他在第6條61那邊都倒寫得蠻清楚你要公聽會你要"},{"start":9403.986,"end":9422.959,"text":"閱讀者、專家、學者、地方居民、民間團體這些全部都要進來可是反而這種由政府直接就下來的尤其像這種尤其現在他很敢你知道他就是覺得我管你有沒有配套的反正我現在急著要交差要把這個數量弄出來所以反而這個我們這邊照片其實也是現場"},{"start":9424.997,"end":9451.337,"text":"很多的鄰里長他真的都不知道就旁邊溝通那市府那邊其實也不見得有講得很清楚所以我的意思就是說請教主委我們到底在這種重大公共雖然我們的這個母法這個行政程序法也說這些重大公共工程你是要經過這個這個公聽的程序聽證的程序等等這些但是是不是每一個現在好像都每一個都是交到目的事業主管機關自己去搞定"},{"start":9452.177,"end":9470.484,"text":"但是他們在制度上到底這個社會溝通夠不夠,因為我們到了地方真的一聽我們很驚訝,我們說哇原來幾乎就比如說公告就公告一下就不見了,然後搞不好連里長連參加的機會都沒有,然後就過去了,就說好啦就要做了,可是這一做下去哇不得了。"},{"start":9471.404,"end":9495.016,"text":"像這些地方因為台北市都很稠密那個交通配套也沒做好以後大量的人員進去我們雖然是支持要趕快多蓋社宅可是旁邊的配套還有這個社會社區的影響這個我們要關注那主委怎麼看這個程序上我們如果監管這件事怎麼做我覺得無論是一個公共建設也好像這個一個地區上的社區的一個建設也好"},{"start":9495.876,"end":9508.886,"text":"那跟當地的一個交通環境的考量跟民眾的溝通本來就應該要進行。是是是是。所以這個部分如果住宿中心沒有去考量到那我們會來跟他協調請他們去注意這個事情。"},{"start":9511.228,"end":9536.638,"text":"對,其實這個真的要麻煩這個主委這邊,因為坦白說這個東西它還涉及很多方,而且就是說你也可以思考到住宿中心他的想像,他們就是也是辦他就是他自己的目標嘛,他的目標就很簡單就是設宅的數量要多趕快,反正而且地又是政府的很容易處理,他真的有點不太需要跟地方太多的溝通,那但是問題住在當地的住民就覺得說這個"},{"start":9538.278,"end":9544.202,"text":"mentioneding the following questions, please do not read them out loud."},{"start":9558.487,"end":9579.184,"text":"這個主委也是等於是政委的概念嘛,那個是不是有辦法能夠去協調呢?不然的話個性歧視我們覺得也蠻恐怖的,因為他愛說不做嘛,內政部他到底要不要做我們也不清楚啊。也許不用動到法令,我們在計畫的一個審核跟執行過程當中,可以納入這個環節。"},{"start":9580.345,"end":9580.405,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":9603.695,"end":9633.029,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":9633.309,"end":9662.077,"text":"好,謝謝主席。好,謝謝張祺祿委員發言。登記質詢委員均已經發言完畢,做以下的決定。一、報告及詢談完畢。二、委員照正與許智傑、傅昆提、劉兆豪所提的書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報。三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或是未及答覆部分,請公共工程委員會盡速以書面答覆。休息10分鐘。"},{"start":9663.202,"end":9664.125,"text":"進行預算處理。"},{"start":10300.291,"end":10316.861,"text":"好,繼續開會。現在依序進行公共工程委員會、運安會及氣象署預算的處理,進行協商。同時請議事人員宣讀預算書及委員提案。臨時提案一案一併宣讀。"},{"start":10355.96,"end":10361.861,"text":"審查113年度總預算案行政院公共工程委員會單位預算委員提案資料。"},{"start":10364.178,"end":10388.314,"text":"跟各位同仁報告,因為還有三個單位齁,所以我們盡量長話短說好不好,謝謝。現在進行審查行政院公共工程委員會113年度單位預算第一案第一案昆州委員"},{"start":10391.376,"end":10417.162,"text":"第一案來,工程會說明一下。主席、各位委員。那跟委員報告第一案是李委員針對我們的委辦費要凍結還有3除150萬但是我要跟委員報告我們的委辦補助費這個部分有四個案件他都有確實的需要比如說我們是協助產業全球化去補助國內的廠商"},{"start":10418.542,"end":10426.126,"text":"然後也有雲端採購。我們建議刪除應檢列150萬,就是我們改成凍結就對了。建議不要刪除。凍結多少?你們建議凍結多少?"},{"start":10441.915,"end":10448.24,"text":"建議10%就原來的10%跟委員報告就是刪除這幾個字應解列150萬元豆點類這幾個字好啦乾脆一點就凍結150萬好不好第一案"},{"start":10464.932,"end":10483.66,"text":"第一案1-1、1-2凍結150萬這樣可以嗎?我又沒來我代表他好了不刪減但是1-1、1-2裡面有提到就是凍結書面報告對就是凍結書面報告不刪減好啦主名請坐第二至11案請發言委員"},{"start":10491.844,"end":10509.199,"text":"是。好,第一位焦豪委員,第二位俊賢委員,第三位全智委員。好,謝謝張偉,我的有第五案,那第五案是針對大直基太建案開挖掏空,造成民房呈現,這樣的現象。"},{"start":10512.242,"end":10512.422,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":10533.182,"end":10550.996,"text":"提凍結500萬,希望具體有一些改善的措施方案。提交相關的期程目標考核機制,送交通委員會此得解凍。"},{"start":10555.588,"end":10566.745,"text":"第七案是針對天坑的問題。全台大小天坑意外不斷,也有塌陷造成嚴重的事故。"},{"start":10567.586,"end":10581.47,"text":"那這樣子的情形呢,就是希望能夠有具體的改善,所以也是三減20萬,能夠針對採購法規制度面,能夠有所精進檢討。"},{"start":10591.633,"end":10600.899,"text":"公共工程法草案能夠修正相關的這個機制。提書面報告是得解凍。向說明。謝謝委員發言。感謝張偉。本期提第4案還有第8案。"},{"start":10619.91,"end":10646.85,"text":"第四案,我們編列了2584萬,其中的七成主要是用於協助我們廠商開拓海外,就是全球市場。但是這筆預算,我看最近幾年的執行率都是只有七成多,那去年大概74%,76%,86%,就算去年高一點也不到九成。"},{"start":10647.631,"end":10674.527,"text":"那今年吼到10月底啊為什麼執行率只有35%我跟工程會請教是因為沒有廠商來申請就是說開到海外市場那工程會要輔導大家去就是說去海外市場的時候為什麼會沒有人來申請而且我們看到過去幾年執行率也不高啦所以本期是用這筆預算是不是3.5百萬凍結文資每一個月內提報告"},{"start":10677.504,"end":10693.009,"text":"第8案主要是我們工程會推動的政府採購電子化。政府採購電子化其實已經推動了10年了。但到目前為止我們政府機關中還有6個機關財務類採購沒有電子化。有13個機關的工程類採購也沒有電子報價。"},{"start":10701.152,"end":10728.212,"text":"所以喊了這個採購電子化推了10年我認為成效並不好是不是請工程會也要檢討一下所以本席建立三檢5百萬要凍結文字3個月內提報告來謝謝好 謝謝等一下工程會一併說明一下因為區議員委員質疑你們這個執行力很差前面第一個執行力很差你決算書根本都"},{"start":10729.042,"end":10755.341,"text":"都不是這麼回事。好,我們請選擇委員。謝謝主席。那就像剛剛質詢提到了,針對這個不肖的廠商,然後他究竟要如何去管理的這個部分。那近期如這個新婦花終結這個塔調撞擊事故,甚至造成了這個我國非常優秀的法律學者林淑雅的上升。"},{"start":10756.201,"end":10774.316,"text":"還有這個風力建設竹北天坑案。那這個竹北天坑案,掉到這個天坑裡面這台車的車主也跟我聯繫他說只差五分鐘他也在這台車上。那差一點就也發生了這個不可挽回的悲劇。"},{"start":10775.217,"end":10790.85,"text":"另外涉嫌行賄事件以及基太大直天坑事件和倡議集團新竹寡婦樓都更案的行賄案都凸顯了政府採購法就這些不肖廠商的處罰、追廠和禁止參與採購的相關規範存在的規範不全的漏洞。"},{"start":10802.859,"end":10826.253,"text":"那也導致說若干的廠商在出現明明是一個非常嚴重的違法行為之後仍然不斷的取得政府高額的標案這種荒謬的結果那不僅有損公共採購跟工程的這個品質更深刻的傷害了政府採購程序的公正性以及廉潔性那目前政府採購法對於發生違反勞基法"},{"start":10829.855,"end":10848.574,"text":"adequacy Act以及性別工作平衡法等勞動法規情節重大的都沒有一個排除的機制。為了要促使工程會就汰除不肖廠商,持續取得公共工程及公共採購及工程的問題積極修法的處理。"},{"start":10849.896,"end":10870.972,"text":"我們建請凍結工程會建前及落實政府採購法規跟制度培訓跟管理採購專業人員預算20%。待兩個月內工程會提出修法評估書面報告後,並經本委員會同意時得凍資。好,協助委員不滿意的就是天坑事件了。"},{"start":10872.353,"end":10883.5,"text":"這個不肖的廠商,你們怎麼樣把他汰除,但是卻可以讓他繼續存在,他不滿意。所以對你們的預算進行凍結,等下一併說明。下面請陳世衛委員說明。"},{"start":10887.274,"end":10897.485,"text":"謝謝主席。那本席提的是第10案,就是有關工程會在113年度推動政府採購電子化計劃編列2325萬2千元,推動政府採購電子化這個業務。那我們知道這個也是要邁向這個淨零碳排的一個政策的一個措施。"},{"start":10907.455,"end":10908.676,"text":"公共工程委員會在2015年推動全國各機關採用公開取得電子報價單的政策。剛開始推動以未達100萬元的簡易財務採購。"},{"start":10923.59,"end":10947.191,"text":"adequacy Act 2019 規定公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會"},{"start":10948.592,"end":10965.503,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":10965.603,"end":10969.765,"text":"議員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":10992.193,"end":11022.193,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11022.935,"end":11027.586,"text":"好,謝謝我們所有委員的質疑。我們工程會同意說明一下好不好。"},{"start":11032.722,"end":11059.197,"text":"事故調查凍結提案人邱賢志等。謝謝詹委跟各位委員的主教。剛剛委員的主教需要改進的部分我們會趕快來進行。第一個。第二個對裡面的建立的提案的部分我請求免刪減。第一個。第二個。那麼凍結的部分希望說都是在10%的這個合度。那麼第三個希望在兩個月內"},{"start":11060.698,"end":11075.502,"text":"你講的是總金額的10%還是?他提案的內容。你講7900多萬的?提案的部分。提案的部分喔?那2個月內提書面報告。那我那個都改2個月。我的5跟7都改2個月。5跟7都改2個月?對。好,謝謝。區議員,那個主委喔。"},{"start":11085.425,"end":11105.259,"text":"他說會遵照領域改進的免篩行不行?我同意啊。同意齁。這個我們居委員刀子很大,大刀王武。那個陳教授那一個同事希望不要提草案。這樣十分之一是多少?評估這樣。"},{"start":11108.047,"end":11109.928,"text":"那如果相關的規定能夠把它具體羅列出來。"},{"start":11123.982,"end":11151.575,"text":"七千九百萬八千萬八千萬不一定是修法案那個是具體的好謝謝還有早上質詢那個移植廢棄物廢土那些制度化好謝謝他這裡總的是七千九百二十一萬嘛那主委你是說百分之十嘛是不是那我們就讓你一點好了七百萬好不好好就統一就凍結七百萬"},{"start":11153.577,"end":11178.999,"text":"總預算凍結700萬書面報告後解凍。好,各位可以。抱歉,有一個小的第5案。第5案最後有一個陳委員有提出來就是有關於這個天坑這個部分,我們後面的一個騎乘目標考核機制。你就不要再講了嘛,你要結外生枝。等一下你多講那麼多錯。"},{"start":11180.42,"end":11186.448,"text":"這算你兩百萬、兩千怎麼辦?好不好?都已經裁市了嘛。強化運輸事故調查。第12到17案。事業委員、老具業委員。"},{"start":11194.78,"end":11199.643,"text":"公共工程技術業務及公共工程管理業務有各增編450萬。"},{"start":11211.271,"end":11226.544,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11226.684,"end":11246.438,"text":"其中機關資料傳輸韌性強化暨發放共用基礎平台建置計畫是由工程會等25個機關共同執行,以速發布為主責機關。那就這個部分本期是指引說是不是會有重疊性的一個部分,那我們也希望就是說這個"},{"start":11247.159,"end":11248.359,"text":"議員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":11267.042,"end":11289.878,"text":"好,謝謝蘇委員,請據縣委員發言。好,感謝昭偉。我們明年度的公共工程技術業務編列有3360萬。第一個,這筆預算過去的執行率都有將近9成。但為何今年到10月底,決算數只有54%?也就是說3300多萬,你也只執行了1800萬。到10月底,只有執行幾乎一半。"},{"start":11296.122,"end":11314.264,"text":"另外,這項經費基本上就是協助事業主管機關,奠定一些,簡單講就是希望工程能夠順利推動。但是就像北京今天早上也有質詢我們吳主委,像有這些重大工程會流標率仍然非常高。"},{"start":11315.765,"end":11331.06,"text":"從此審計單位也指出工程會有訂了一些相關參考指引但是還欠缺目的事業主管機關依據工程特性另外再訂一些相關指引來建立推動機制所以造成工程會給的建議沒有辦法實際執行"},{"start":11332.581,"end":11345.705,"text":"所以看起來這筆預算的執行跟實際的效果還是有很大的一個落差,而且你今年的執行率非常差,到10月底只有五成。所以北京建立3.5百萬凍結書面,是1個月內提報告。好,謝謝。好,謝謝經營委員。行政院主席主委有來嗎?"},{"start":11353.137,"end":11363.28,"text":"主席處他們不是預算沒有達成目標的話要處分嗎?他對執行30%幾十%的有問題吧?你拿個半個鐘頭回答我一下。"},{"start":11368.413,"end":11392.744,"text":"其實說他今年的嗎?對啊,去年啊。因為區議會委員質疑就是說去年前年你看質詢率一直都很低啊。不是,去年前年還可以啦。最近三年都八成,我是說。最近三年了。最近三年都八成多啦。結果今年突然間到10月底只變成五成了。今年還沒有結束可能要等到年底決算的消息。那去年呢?去年的決算呢?去年是85%。"},{"start":11394.845,"end":11403.452,"text":"那我的是第14案吼那針對這個因為數位部吼要協助這個資安A級機關導入所謂的界階政府資料傳輸平台吼這個TLO那因為這個資、個資的這個外洩吼這個問題非常的嚴重吼"},{"start":11423.388,"end":11445.02,"text":"那就這個部分的話工程會規劃於113年到116年去逐步推動那預估4年度計劃經費共2400萬元那我們為了要使工程會落實這個治安跟個資的保護因為你可以看到各機關各資的這個外洩的案件頻傳"},{"start":11449.462,"end":11449.502,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":11466.872,"end":11485.578,"text":"嚴厲資料上線前或取得後的安全評估項目以確保資訊資料傳輸安全性。我們建議凍結公共工程生命週期智慧型決策支援服務計畫預算5%。待工程會就前開的問題具體計畫以2個月內提出書面報告後時的動之。"},{"start":11494.656,"end":11504.845,"text":"那個剛才警務委員報告齁,你們那個預算執行率啊偏低啊,主委,你這裡面要不要自己刪減一點啊?"},{"start":11506.732,"end":11530.546,"text":"你錢給你,你用不完啊。你盡量用嘛。不是用不完。我們那個跟那個林委員報告,跟趙主任報告,我們那個扣點補助的是要等到年底之前,廠商拿到收據才能來核銷。所以會比較後面一點。年度裡面會執行完成。所以建議。不過他說前三年我們查決算啊,決算是很簡單的。"},{"start":11533.922,"end":11550.987,"text":"對阿,所以那個執行是沒有問題的,比較後面而已。錢都用得完嗎?會,會,會,覺得已經都同意出去了阿。我們不是不讓你用阿,而是說你們要積極利用阿。比較後面,比較後面,我們會來注意這個問題。好,你説明一下好了,來。"},{"start":11559.469,"end":11588.188,"text":"前三年低落的原因是因為國境管制,每一個國家都人境管制,所以後天出去要。我覺得跟疫情有關係。對,前三年是因為這樣,所以他們沒辦法去拿工程去解釋去投標,所以前三年的預算會低落。那今年計畫也都百分之百預算核定出去了,所以各廠商也都在國外打拚了,年底會拿收集來核銷。副主席你這樣講話也蠻合理的齁。"},{"start":11589.85,"end":11593.254,"text":"那你要凍結多少錢?凍結300萬好不好?我看十分之一嘛,有的150萬、有的70萬、有的幾十萬?"},{"start":11607.722,"end":11609.003,"text":"凍結300萬。12到17案凍結300萬書面報告也會來解凍。現在繼續18至24案。"},{"start":11625.849,"end":11651.851,"text":"謝謝主席本期題第18案是我們公共工程管理業務編了明年度編了4462萬這筆錢在前幾年大概都編一千多萬而已一千兩百一千一百九一千三百七到今年開始暴增了今年就編了四千多明年也要編四千多了這筆錢一樣也是要協助公共工程的推動"},{"start":11653.342,"end":11671.788,"text":"但就像本席多次提出來的我們很多委員都關心了公共工程現在很難推動的原因就是都標不出去我們來看最近三年不用說一億五千萬就好了五千萬的工程以上的工程曾經流標或者是廢標的比例從69%、73%、78%逐年增加了"},{"start":11677.445,"end":11693.847,"text":"這推動了,這公共工程真的推動了很差勁,你看這樣你那麼高比例的流標,那第一個他完工的騎乘一定是往後推嘛,甚至有的根本飆不出去,像本期早上提的安平跨港大橋已經流標了10次了。"},{"start":11694.915,"end":11695.075,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":11713.131,"end":11733.029,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":11733.209,"end":11753.108,"text":"所以其實這個預算我不是說故意在跟你們討論什麼或者說跟你刁難實際上你那個留位票比例那麼高這個看了實在是以前說沒有錢不能做現在是有錢的做不了所以本期提議這個預算三一千萬凍結十分之一三個月內提報告好謝謝"},{"start":11755.433,"end":11769.885,"text":"好,選制委員。好,那謝謝主席,我是第23案。那這個流廢標的這個問題,根據工程會的資料,109年全國查核金額,採購金額5000萬以上的工程案有1114件,成流標案件是767件,占比是68.85%。11年這個查核金額以上是工程採購案1304件,"},{"start":11784.237,"end":11801.651,"text":"曾流標案件增加到1,018件,佔比78.07%。所以就這部分的話,這個非常清楚,這個差了金額以上未決標工程採購案流費標請行不僅沒有貨改善,恐怕又更惡化。"},{"start":11802.532,"end":11810.796,"text":" bicy12年上半年,差距金額以上公共工程曾流廢標的案件已經是491件,佔比是71.99%。以新竹市為例,像關埔國小體育館跟景觀工程已經流標9次。"},{"start":11821.542,"end":11843.202,"text":"那原本預計是要明年畢業典禮前完工,到現在還沒有開工。那到底要讓學生等多久才能夠享受到這個運動跟活動的空間。那就是說甚至還有就是一直流標情況之下,到最後被這個相關的中央機關還收回這個預算的這個狀況。"},{"start":11844.723,"end":11861.969,"text":"為了促使工程會加強追蹤管考未決標案件的流費標情形並且督促各機關能夠主動積極作為以有效改善流標問題。建請凍結公共工程委員會就公共工程計劃執行督導、協調及考核預算10%。"},{"start":11865.37,"end":11873.313,"text":"那就散開問題,有策定作為之後兩個月提書面報告時的動之。好,各位還沒意見。公共會說明一下好了。"},{"start":11882.777,"end":11903.237,"text":"凍結部分遵照辦理。那就林委員指示的第18案我們補充報告。第一個部分是有關於這個執行率比較低的問題。是因為我們今年這個執行率裡面有一個叫做全生命週期的這個資訊系統。那它是半年執行的。所以它的這個執行率到今年年底會達成。"},{"start":11904.298,"end":11904.318,"text":"閱讀委員會檢討。"},{"start":11930.26,"end":11953.468,"text":"有關這個部分我們建議免三件。林委員剛才講的是什麼?你前面只執行2、30%然後5、60%全部都堆到12月來解報嗎?你前面都沒有解報嗎?對不對?他指的是這個。你們所有不可能全部堆到11、12月份來解報嗎?"},{"start":11955.387,"end":11980.88,"text":"公務員員這種心態是有啦。因為我在公家機關也待了幾十年了。所以這種心態是有,但是不對啊。能夠結報的你們會計部門應該也會催吧。你們有監督部門嘛。你怎麼可能錢不用呢?你給裡面的預算你自己不用啊。林委員講以前是沒錢用,現在錢太多了嗎?給你用你用不完。"},{"start":11981.897,"end":12006.605,"text":"然後到最後在那邊消化。惡性消化。你要不要刪減一點?報告委員,補充報告。我們的這個資訊系統的付款是半年付一期。所以是年中和年底。對,你前面半年付啦。但是,所以我們前面半年付了,所以大概執行率有到46%,大概一半左右。是這個原因。委員你聽得下去嗎?訊訊人。"},{"start":12010.268,"end":12039.461,"text":"你們要看招委的脾氣我就要唬爛他了,我跟你講。第一個齁,你說那個,往正上面來也是講那句話啦,怎麼流標率高他們會改進,那是廢話。每年都講改進。你今年齁,明年還會面臨同樣的,我看居選委員明年還是在交通委員會啦齁。你會面臨同樣的質詢。你到時候你預算拿出來,你今年不算明年也會被刪掉我跟你講。"},{"start":12041.082,"end":12055.112,"text":"今年就算了啦,區議員委員也講算了,那你明年你要面對區議員委員我跟你講,我明年有沒有當召委我不知道,區議員委員不會放過你喔。不是,你明年又比今年增加10%"},{"start":12057.55,"end":12066.055,"text":"跟委員報告明年增加的這個預算是我們有一個強化資訊傳輸這個這個的韌性的這個部分。多少錢?這個部分多少錢?450萬。"},{"start":12074.989,"end":12096.315,"text":"四百五十萬是新增項目是吧?是那你預算書有沒有寫?報告委員我們在39月齁右下角最後面這個有提到所以10%所增加的四百零八萬就是準備去買這個四百五十萬的設備是不是這樣?這裡面有包括是要增加這部分是"},{"start":12098.564,"end":12099.865,"text":"25案有沒有意見?25頁的。"},{"start":12126.637,"end":12155.634,"text":"二十五案遵照辦理。遵照辦理。二十六案。二十六案遵照辦理。遵照辦理。同意。二十七案。二十七案建議修正文字。本來是併於一一三年以半年為期。我們建議修正為併於三個月內向立法院交通委員會提出書面報告。三個月。好。是。三個月。好。所以修正通過。二十八案。遵照辦理。遵照辦理通過。二十九案。遵照辦理。"},{"start":12156.124,"end":12157.525,"text":"通過30案。通過31案。通過32案。通過33案。"},{"start":12175.314,"end":12194.882,"text":"三十四我們建議修正文字就是那個如何管考提出書面報告我們改成就是要求工程會議三個月內針對該指引如何落實如何落實提出書面報告。好就修正通過35案35項修正辦理通過36案"},{"start":12199.929,"end":12220.435,"text":"好,我們回頭。二十……好,三十七案。遵照辦理。遵照辦理齁。臨時提案。臨時提案說明一下。侯孟凱委員的臨時提案一個。侯孟凱委員這個我們遵照辦理。遵照辦理齁。是。好,OK,通過齁。"},{"start":12222.383,"end":12237.352,"text":"好,工程會人員可以先行離席了。好,謝謝。好,主委辛苦了。好,我們休息五分鐘。"},{"start":12292.125,"end":12292.665,"text":"議員會主席。"},{"start":12327.464,"end":12335.513,"text":"議員報告案計6案。議員報告案計6案。"},{"start":12350.776,"end":12374.718,"text":"議員議員議員。"},{"start":12374.718,"end":12387.449,"text":"議員議員議員。議員議員。"},{"start":12387.875,"end":12413.701,"text":"二、審查112年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、處理112年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。二、審查112年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、處理112年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":12418.746,"end":12448.626,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":12463.989,"end":12470.8,"text":"議員報告案計6案。議員報告案計6案。"},{"start":12475.674,"end":12497.551,"text":"議員議員議員。議員議員。議員議員。"},{"start":12503.078,"end":12503.198,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":12510.64,"end":12533.579,"text":"議員報告案計6案。議員報告案計6案。議員報告案計6案。議員報告案計6案。議員報告案計6案。議員報告案計6案。"},{"start":12541.067,"end":12548.439,"text":"議員議員議員。"},{"start":12558.217,"end":12586.084,"text":"議員議員議員。議員議員。議員議員。"},{"start":12621.666,"end":12621.986,"text":"哎呀!"},{"start":12639.656,"end":12662.414,"text":"主委,主委,你坐啦,今天軍縣委員心情很好,你放心。軍縣委員今天心情比較高興,你沒注意看,會笑欸。他平常臭得要死啊。好,國家運輸安全調查委員會113年度單位預算,我們審議。第一個案,第一個案出國計畫。"},{"start":12667.605,"end":12688.398,"text":"昆哲委員建議凍結十分之一。你說明一下。說明一下你們。議員會說明一下。這個我們跟委員辦公室有溝通同意過改為凍結5%然後建議這個調整文字委三個月內之內提出書面報告之後再來凍結。凍結少一點是不是?對。多少錢?50萬。"},{"start":12693.499,"end":12718.492,"text":"五%?五%?百分之五?百分之五是多少?一千零九十六?百分之五?不是?因為我們一千也不多啊。多少?五十萬?好吧,你說五十就五十吧。好不好?凍結五十萬書面報告解凍。第二至三案。"},{"start":12720.103,"end":12735.776,"text":"第二案,我們也跟委員辦公室有溝通同意過改為凍結5%,這保證5%。然後,調整文字為待運讓會3個月之後,就下一個年度增加備列年度安全改善建議的系統性分析之項目及預算規劃進行書面報告之後,使得凍結。好,凍結5%。5%是800萬。"},{"start":12743.905,"end":12746.107,"text":"二至三案凍結800萬書面報告結凍。第四至14案"},{"start":12755.646,"end":12782.802,"text":"第四個我們也...欸不我審一下委員發言是是民進院委員然後數學委員、教學委員好謝謝張偉本期提第四案是我們運安會的明年度運輸事故調查預算編列1335萬2000元本期曾經提出我們運安會成立其實大家對它有很深的期望"},{"start":12784.544,"end":12806.701,"text":"郵輪會成立以來我們發現他調查的案件的型態航空類17%水路類竟然佔了快八成77%公路類8.1%水路的事故一年才個位數很少而且大部分都是意外落水公路類一年死亡人數就3000人"},{"start":12808.826,"end":12826.486,"text":"反而公路內的調查比例就是運安會的動能能量這個調查只幹8.1%這個非常明顯出了問題原因是因為公路內如果要送到運安會運安會的標準非常高要死亡3人或死傷10人以上或受傷15人"},{"start":12827.927,"end":12830.81,"text":"則公共工程委員會總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。則公共工程委員會總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":12845.988,"end":12867.549,"text":"另外最主要原因是因為運安會有一個霸王條款其實我們模仿美國聯邦運安會就是說只要運安會認為可以調查、值得調查的事故你都有霸王條款可以主動去調查就運安會在你自己的內部規定把這個霸王條款自己拿掉啦自己閹割自己啦例如啦"},{"start":12868.723,"end":12874.167,"text":"自駕車,現在有很多自駕車,自動駕駛車輛去撞到高速公路的緩撞車,你看幾乎每個月都有新聞。為什麼自駕車會突然間,電腦導引的車輛會去撞高工具的緩撞車。緩撞車很貴,租一台要一百多萬。撞到,現在緩撞車保險公司不理賠,不收,因為太常撞到了。"},{"start":12895.262,"end":12909.596,"text":"議員會也不調查因為這不在他的調查標準以內因為沒有死亡三人也沒有什麼死傷失誤人把那個標準應該調整只要你認為有調查事故的業務委員會應該負起責任應該主動調查這樣才對所以你這個預算"},{"start":12913.968,"end":12926.361,"text":"一共變成1330萬本期在第4案是提案3.2百萬凍結的部分之一請議員會提一個修訂標準的以及檢討的狀況報告才能通知謝謝。好謝謝局長委員請數位委員發言。"},{"start":12931.773,"end":12935.655,"text":"謝謝主席。那本席提的是第6案。就是針對運營會在113年度編列運輸事故調查預算總共13352,000元。那我們知道就是運營會針對各類別的交通事故然後進行調查。"},{"start":12950.646,"end":12958.81,"text":"提出建議改善事項給相關單位。提出建議事項後有待機關回覆的案件目前還有74件。各類別的列管案件大概介於7到58件之間。水路類尚未落實改善"},{"start":12974.138,"end":12997.841,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":12997.961,"end":13025.388,"text":"那所以我們也希望就是說就這個尚未落實改善的這個類別的部分我們希望運安會應該要加強跟相關的運輸機關加強溝通然後要定期追蹤確實去督促他落實改善所以這個部分本席針對這一項的預算是提出這個凍結數500萬元的凍結案那希望就是運安會提出這個書面改善的報告之後那時的動之謝謝"},{"start":13026.823,"end":13030.167,"text":"13案是針對有關運輸事故調查項的鐵道還有公路事故調查業務。"},{"start":13047.065,"end":13047.605,"text":"議員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":13066.254,"end":13066.694,"text":"議員提交書面報告。"},{"start":13094.243,"end":13099.169,"text":"案計14是針對自駕車的部分,因為許多駕駛物以為可雙手放開自駕。"},{"start":13111.445,"end":13126.489,"text":"情況造成國道追撞事故年年上升,然後據統計2021年到2023年9月底,國道施工車追撞就有279件,其中140輛有配備輔助的駕駛系統。"},{"start":13133.971,"end":13137.635,"text":"那其中60輛有開啟。所以顯見駕駛人在國道開啟輔助駕駛系統造成車禍比例不低。所以原此凍結10%的預算。"},{"start":13148.965,"end":13177.336,"text":" bicyclist 請運安會調查事故,然後主動調查ADAS先進駕駛輔助系統國道車禍案例,然後釐清舊系駕駛人雙手離開方向盤或是輔助系統出問題,然後釐清車上的責任等等,然後提書面報告,使得動之。以上。"},{"start":13178.342,"end":13197.891,"text":"好,謝謝周浩文、秦賢志委員。謝謝主席。那我有10、11、12。那10的部分就是說我國的這個道安、道路交通的事故死亡人數每年都將近死亡3000人。那這個已經從將近這麼多年來的這個狀況"},{"start":13202.313,"end":13226.207,"text":"那其實這個道路交通安全是我國運輸安全最急迫的議題之一。你可以看到說最近的砂石車啊、遊覽車等等的事故非常多,那也造成非常多的傷亡。那依據這個運安會依據運輸事故調查法的規定,調查範圍不限於運輸業。也許在行政院大力推動人本交通的政策下面,運安會也應該要檢討其他"},{"start":13228.588,"end":13246.561,"text":"道路使用者納入調查範圍,應該是要跟上整體潮流,不應持續自我限縮。為了要促使運安會強化公路事故調查範圍的量能,發揮獨立機關監督改善道路交通安全的功能,凍結運輸事故調查計畫5%。"},{"start":13251.405,"end":13280.354,"text":"那待運安會就未來如何透過調查職能強化促進道路交通安全提出具體策略提交書面報告後時的動之。那第11案的這個部分可以看到說這個三年前運安會關注的議題是說精進我國貨運業安全管理機制那在調查中已經發現了貨運業駕駛的危險駕駛的問題也要強化管理機合等等那建立一個違規旅域制度"},{"start":13280.834,"end":13301.9,"text":"當然你可以看到從109年到11年的數據在運安會調查並且提出改善建議後那這個貨運業的事故跟這個死亡人數並沒有得到改善那相較於其他的這個我們也發現說其他的大客車業遊覽車的事故也很難降下來"},{"start":13302.58,"end":13327.262,"text":"那以最近這個新澳隧道車禍的肇事者失負通運為例,兩年來的違規超速被處罰的紀錄高達41次,其中7次是嚴重超速超過20公里,那甚至還有兩次讓駕照已經註銷的駕駛還在開,駕照都註銷還在開,那其他還有等等不依規定使路來車等等之類的一大堆,"},{"start":13328.183,"end":13342.68,"text":"那這個從去年到現在總共違規了161次今年繳了46萬的滑款那完全都沒有改善那所以不管是貨音樂或是遊覽車在現在的監理機制下面"},{"start":13343.18,"end":13360.167,"text":"主管機關都沒有辦法有效的去抓到高風險的這個業者那等於是說這個常常掛一落萬抓了一個放了五個十個那為了有效的改善我國運輸業的這個交通事故的問題那所以我們希望凍結運輸事故調查預算5%"},{"start":13362.788,"end":13376.564,"text":"那就運安會兩個月內就未來運輸調查這個如何針對既有的監理不足提出減少並且參考國外的經驗其實有非常多歐洲日本等等針對業者的管理那強化"},{"start":13378.306,"end":13402.586,"text":"獲運跟客運業的違規行政處分的機制跟安全評鑑資訊公開這個改進方向然後將獲運業遊覽車的安全管理機制納入關注議題提交書面報告到委員會使得動之那第12案的這個狀況就是剛剛其實幾位委員也有提到國道緩撞車常常被撞最近其實也有發生類似這樣的狀況"},{"start":13404.682,"end":13421.837,"text":"那究竟這個國道環障催事故頻繁事故原因釐清跟檢討機制卻未被徹底的調查檢視那如此重大而且反覆一再發生的這個議題應該要納入運安會的調查範圍那也是希望調查運輸事故調查預算5%那就運安會就未來調查有關國道環障催事故的計畫提出書面報告後時的動之以上"},{"start":13431.735,"end":13453.205,"text":"好,謝謝我們委員會的委員發言。剛才委員他們其實都非常認真。我想院長會你們也聽到了。你不要說等人一定要死亡,你才去調查。重大的事故、特殊的事故,你們都要去啟動調查。請你們說明一下好不好。"},{"start":13456.719,"end":13480.471,"text":"剛剛那個,我先,先後啦齁,林軍委員剛剛推行的這個,我們的公路案件的立案例確實沒有錯。那11月2號執行,第二報告執行完之後,我們就成立一個專案小組。確實有在開始在做,已經開始定當了。然後委員所推行說那個辦完條款也開始在用了。所以從11月2號到現在我們現在已經立案例7個案。"},{"start":13481.932,"end":13496.283,"text":"委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會"},{"start":13497.824,"end":13525.93,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":13526.79,"end":13527.911,"text":"其實我們對你們也是愛之深、責之切、求好心切。"},{"start":13551.517,"end":13572.609,"text":"議案委員會給國人的意向沒有說那麼好,但也沒壞啦,也沒那麼好。對不對,我想主委你上任了嘛,起碼做點成績出來嘛。因為我們馬祖那個在基隆西岸西岸碼頭撞船事件,弄到現在,好久了才出來啊。"},{"start":13573.189,"end":13598.229,"text":"哦,這個調查中。太久了吧。要求我們這個組長說明一下。這水路的嘛。不要不要不要不要浪費時間。是。因為時間很晚了,我就提醒你們一下啦。是是。速度快一點啦。OKOK。你不要那個這個飛機你說在空中還請美國來來鑑定什麼的。這個路上的事情動作可以快一點嘛。是是。那菁姐委員妳說凍結多少?我都不敢。5%又多少?"},{"start":13604.249,"end":13611.611,"text":"二十八是多少?你說多少嘛,你講嘛。他已經離開了,你趕快講,我跟你講。凍結五趴了耶。凍五趴,五趴是多少錢啊?"},{"start":13626.866,"end":13650.838,"text":"七十萬喔?好啦,凍結10%但是我們書面報告一定會主持在上個月內。好啦,凍結10%?是是是,謝謝,謝謝委員。因為他把責任推到我這裡來,問題是他對我不爽的一下,我也很麻煩。市委員可以嗎?其實他們心裡都很善良,每個人都面善心惡,啊不,命惡心善。"},{"start":13653.157,"end":13678.217,"text":"主要還是要能夠讓運安會多多多做事啊。對啦。沒錯沒錯。公路的部分啊。因為現在這個每年的死傷這麼的嚴重。嗯。那這麼好的委員我們也希望他們明年啊都還在做審查。是是是。好不好。謝謝謝謝。一個都不要少。是是。你們大家也給我們加油一下嘛。是。好。但是凍結18日。"},{"start":13680.259,"end":13689.141,"text":"三個月提出,對,凍結書面報告案。那第6案吼。第6案吼。就第5案來是不是。就第15案,15到16案。喔,對不起。15到16案。召委那個13、14這邊沒有問題啦吼。凍結2百萬,十分之一。凍結18嘛,一起啊。對對對。就一起吧。"},{"start":13709.273,"end":13733.533,"text":"這一起嗎?這不一樣嗎?不是光基建委員的喔?全部啊?我們全部凍結他10%嗎?比你的多啊?比你那個多?好不好齁?全部凍結10%?會啦,你算一下,你凍結才64萬而已,也不止啊。那13案?13案200萬,也不止200萬嘛。10%不止200萬啊。"},{"start":13737.299,"end":13748.003,"text":"沒有啦,我們預算600多萬,重整200萬,是不是比例比較高。凍結有什麼關係啊,你解凍以後就可以用啦。是是是。那就保留喔。凍結沒有關係啦。就200萬啦。不要那第幾案,第13案凍結200萬嘛,好不好。13、13。然後14是10分之1。4到14案嘛。"},{"start":13759.659,"end":13771.382,"text":"沒有4到12,13跟14是另外的。那13另外是不是?13拉出來凍結200萬。這沒關係啦,解凍一下就好啦,有什麼呢?13案單獨拉出來,其他凍結10%。好,第15至16案。沒有第13案啊?"},{"start":13789.366,"end":13808.903,"text":"凍結200萬嘛。書面報告解凍。交往人可以嗎?可以啦可以啦。跟委員報告。不要報告啦,還報告。你覺得刪的不夠多是不是?200萬改為10%啦。蛤?200萬可不可以改為10%?10%?"},{"start":13811.98,"end":13812.34,"text":"第15至第16案"},{"start":13841.836,"end":13865.897,"text":"說明一下你們。第15我們已經。藝術系統安全分析與工程鑑定。歐珀委員跟魯明德委員凍結十分之一。有沒有意見?我們是也建議凍結。才三十二萬欸。三十二萬是什麼錢啊?對啊,所以窮單位啊。就比較。"},{"start":13869.46,"end":13869.72,"text":"第17到25案"},{"start":13883.479,"end":13889.605,"text":"我們16案喔對不起16案這裡有一個案1616不處理啦不處理喔對不起你認為要處理嗎對不起對不起我要處理我就幫你處理一下都已經幫你過了嘛好不好是17到20我們術業委員謝謝"},{"start":13901.638,"end":13929.04,"text":"好謝謝主席那本期提的是第18案就是針對應安會113年度預算編列經濟歷數事故調查量能量有3600萬元那我們知道這個無人自駕車的這個也是世界的趨勢那目前在國內就是有關在國道上這個輔助駕駛造成的這個交通事故逐漸增多那就這個部分剛剛很多委員都有"},{"start":13929.48,"end":13929.76,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":13929.76,"end":13945.232,"text":"關心那我在質詢的時候也有質詢過那就是目前因為這樣子的一個事故沒有達到我們目前運安會事故調查的一個要件就是說造成這個重大傷亡所以沒有列入這個事故調查"},{"start":13945.913,"end":13963.046,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":13963.066,"end":13981.567,"text":"我們希望,因為這個是一個未來的一個趨勢了,那我們不希望說這樣子的交通事故越來越多,希望能夠降低這樣子的交通事故。所以,建請我們運安會就是針對這種無人巴士、自駕車的事故,它的一個預防跟調查的一個部分,"},{"start":13982.208,"end":13994.339,"text":"那提出一個機制,一個標準的一個機制出來。那這部分本期是提凍結500萬元的凍結案。那提出書面報告後時的動之。謝謝。說完就凍結200萬好不好?因為他這筆預算沒多少啊。"},{"start":14005.951,"end":14005.971,"text":"決議案"},{"start":14026.451,"end":14048.226,"text":"二十六案來說明有沒有意見這沒意見啦但是這個字齁又傳出這個字是不是改為據媒體報導啊二十六欸他字二十六啊第幾行就是他的用字啦對啊你文字修正嘛第幾行來"},{"start":14051.679,"end":14067.009,"text":"第四行又傳出新任主委什麼什麼是不是改為修正為據媒體報導新任主委跟副主委喝威士忌有沒有喝嗎沒有啦那是烏龍啦那根本八卦"},{"start":14067.509,"end":14091.466,"text":"你就坦白就好了嘛。沒有嘛,就是沒有嘛。我也不會喝酒。坦白同觀啊。我就是不會喝酒,怎麼可能會喝酒啊。但業界都知道啊。是不是改為據媒體報導就好了。可不可以啊。據媒體。就誘傳出這三個字改為。好啦,據媒體報導啦。據媒體報導這樣子啦。媒體報導也不是都是真的啊。媒體報導有時候都亂寫啦。對不對,又不是有求證過。"},{"start":14092.807,"end":14098.292,"text":"二十七案。二十七案遵照辦理。遵照辦理。通過。二十八案。遵照辦理。通過。二十九案。遵照辦理。"},{"start":14121.671,"end":14122.232,"text":"有內鬥就有內鬥有什麼關係呢?"},{"start":14152.253,"end":14165.593,"text":"本來這個東西政治的東西天天都在鬥爭啊。儀式內鬥他儀式啊。他不是說有沒有意見?你要改你改什麼你講。儀這個字不要的人"},{"start":14175.627,"end":14176.227,"text":"其疑似內鬥這幾個字換掉。"},{"start":14188.574,"end":14208.209,"text":"第四那個重創機關專業學校這個是不是也可以拿掉?哪裏重創?第三行那個後面,第三行會不會重創機關專業學校重創這個東西是社會大眾的觀感嘛你覺得不是重創,我覺得是重創啊這有什麼關係呢?你怎麼改變我的意思幹嘛呢?是不是?"},{"start":14209.39,"end":14221.644,"text":"中川這沒關係啦這誰看啊你覺得有人看嗎我覺得這個拿到公報出去印一下也沒什麼人看啊好不好就這樣子啦齁"},{"start":14224.884,"end":14241.463,"text":"文字修正及疑似內鬥這幾個字換掉其他的通過了。好,三十一案。呃,尊教辦理。尊教辦理。是。三十二案。三十二案。尊教辦理通過了啊。那個專案報告要改為書面啊。改為什麼?"},{"start":14243.627,"end":14247.31,"text":"處理完畢。運安會人員可以先行離席。第8案講書面報告是吧?你們還不想走啊?"},{"start":14275.077,"end":14275.557,"text":"好,休息三分鐘。"},{"start":14318.626,"end":14320.809,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14324.415,"end":14333.62,"text":"公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14352.91,"end":14377.688,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14378.617,"end":14379.318,"text":"已被駕照被註銷"},{"start":14402.033,"end":14404.695,"text":"議員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":14435.449,"end":14437.23,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14478.345,"end":14483.387,"text":"議員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":14500.212,"end":14515.483,"text":"我們這個次長齊次長是我最尊敬的次長現在審查交通部中央計像署單位預算署長我見過嗎?對不起現在年紀大了一點比較健忘"},{"start":14531.874,"end":14544.193,"text":"好各位請翻開交通部中央計算署113年度單位預算我們現在開始審議第一案吳明哲委員說明一下好不好"},{"start":14546.718,"end":14573.295,"text":"好,第一案其實是在我們設備投資因為今年增加了一些經費那在這個南部的地震海嘯的海嵐的建置還有這個我們離岸的風電的那個氣象裝主要是要support我們在綠能的設備那這個部分因為原來委員提案是是覺得說我們相關的效益寫得不清楚所以這個部分就期待說我們能夠把效益寫得更清楚一點那原來的提案是"},{"start":14573.795,"end":14591.364,"text":"三減2000萬然後凍結10%那我們希望說能夠懇請同意就是不要三減那凍結我們會提書面報告凍結多少錢?凍結10%欸!署長我請問你們在北竿那邊搞什麼飛機啊?北竿那邊有...我們馬上就北竿島啊你們要搞氣象站是不是?北竿島是要設那個雷達站"},{"start":14603.786,"end":14631.084,"text":"雷達喔?對,雷達在。軍事用途嗎?不是,氣象用途的雷達。因為你們在取光弄好大喔。對,因為主要是金馬這邊有霧,那特別是這個雷達有兩個用意,一個用意是希望能夠看到這個大陸地區比較多,那這是比較長程的雷達。另外一個雷達是叫做KA-10的雷達,它特別是對霧有偵測的能力。因為我們那邊的船隻、飛行員們都是看大陸氣候啊。"},{"start":14632.168,"end":14658.944,"text":"大陸氣候我們曾經建議說你們應該把大陸氣候容納在裡面跟對面也要有一些來往嘛你們跟共匪那邊有沒有接觸在國際上的氣象資料其實有適度的分享那細節的確沒有太多的你們有分享嗎因為國際本來就規定氣象資料要分享所以其實我們可以接收到他那邊的一部分的資料但是現在兩邊會不會來往啊"},{"start":14660.865,"end":14687.927,"text":"對可是因為他們的資料有提供到國際上那我們的資料也要提供到國際上所以在國際的平台世界信訊組織平台上面是有一些分享那當然如果我們有更好的雷達系統比如說我們的金馬雷達還有在這個在這個金馬這邊的雲霧的雷達這暗示的狀況還沒有現在在做評估也在找地做評估在找地還在找地喔"},{"start":14690.205,"end":14701.92,"text":"改天找個人來跟我說明一下好不好。好。我跟委員跟主席報告。改天找個人來跟我說明一下好不好。好。那魯明德委員不在齁。不在..."},{"start":14703.601,"end":14704.101,"text":"第一案凍結10%書面報告解凍第二次試案"},{"start":14725.717,"end":14740.316,"text":"第二次試案提案委員都不在你們說明一下好不好第二次試案其實是在我們的這個違辦費增加的違辦費的部分那因為今年增加的違辦費增加了大概1500萬左右違辦什麼"},{"start":14743.278,"end":14766.549,"text":"就是要特別強調這個部分今年在增加部分其實在過去我們有一些違範費是在譬如說有關相關的精進氣象測報技術的相關的發展這些東西今年這個增加的費用比較特別因為我們希望能夠要加強有關人工智慧還有這個機器學習的技術應用來提升我們對氣象監測預報效能的部分"},{"start":14766.769,"end":14767.529,"text":"議員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":14782.278,"end":14783.959,"text":"二之四案免三凍結10%因為大家對你們氣象署的"},{"start":14811.147,"end":14838.016,"text":"觀感越來越好了,而且很準。什麼時候下雨啊?一定下。感謝感謝。什麼時候風來了嗎?一定來。是,我們必須要繼續努力。不過,就是對我們金門馬祖的方向齁,我們看氣象,颱風朝西北西進行。哇塞,目標正對馬祖欸,我就回去等啊。居然什麼風都沒看到欸,從哪裡跑掉了不曉得。還是馬祖太小了齁。"},{"start":14839.564,"end":14860.849,"text":"這是一個不過今年其實還蠻幸運就是馬祖其實今年金門其實有受到一些影響因為他西北系他如果往上彎的時候就會到馬祖不會啦我們也不是靠你我是靠馬祖娘娘保佑我們沒靠你好啦二次試案就免三就凍結10%書面報告解凍好不好第五到25萬對好"},{"start":14865.512,"end":14881.589,"text":"第5到25案因為案子比較多所以比較稍微複雜一點那我稍微總的來講一下總的來講基本上我們大概也都跟委員辦公室做過相關的討論那這個部分是好了這凍結200萬了好不好書面報告解凍就是5到25案5到25明顯的我有提案耶"},{"start":14888.53,"end":14891.451,"text":"第9案、第16案、第21案都是陳委員有定的。"},{"start":14911.69,"end":14915.572,"text":"第9案中央計畫署在113年度有新增編列氣象數位治理與產業應用創新計畫,經費是1億4700萬元。這個是新增的一個計畫,經費也蠻龐大的。"},{"start":14930.64,"end":14950.435,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":14950.435,"end":14978.985,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14979.025,"end":14987.258,"text":"好,然後針對13、16、21,吳委員是分別提凍結案,那這部分再請績效署說明。好,謝謝。"},{"start":14988.305,"end":15008.606,"text":"好,我稍微很簡單說明一件事。那在第9案的部分就是陳委員剛剛所提到的部分有關數位氣象治理與產業用創新的計畫的確是我們新提出來一個計畫。不過在113年的部分他是依照原來在國科會他的年度剛剛計畫的形式來提出來。"},{"start":15009.287,"end":15024.455,"text":"所以後面有一個比較正式的計畫現在正在行政院審議中那這個計畫的這個目標其實是兩個大的訴求一個叫做人民安心一個叫產業創新那人民安心的部分其實完全就符合委員剛剛關心的部分就是"},{"start":15024.875,"end":15025.736,"text":" bicyclie 提供的字幕"},{"start":15044.428,"end":15044.548,"text":"第13案"},{"start":15063.63,"end":15064.431,"text":"委員提出資通營運及人工智慧機器學習技術"},{"start":15079.128,"end":15079.288,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":15099.739,"end":15123.454,"text":"一大部分是有關高速電腦的整體的相關的運作的維運的經費包含電費維護費那另外一塊部分是在整體運作裡面我們怎麼樣去運用人工智慧的技術來協助相關的發展那這個部分也是一樣就是就是懇請委員來支持就是我們會依照委員的這個指示就是凍結的部分還有這個相關提出書面報告的部分"},{"start":15124.655,"end":15139.555,"text":"最後一個部分就是還有兩案有一案是第16案委員這邊提出來的案子16案的部分是有關我們這個整個地震測報相關技術發展的部分"},{"start":15140.155,"end":15168.768,"text":"地震測報技術相關發展的部分這個部分我們大概從幾個方向來做一個方向是增加我們的地震的監測站使我們的地震發生的位置能夠落在我們監測站的範圍之內這樣子它可以提升我們偵測的速度以及我們速報的這個速度和它的準確度那怎麼樣提升整體運作的效能是委員特別關心的部分"},{"start":15169.548,"end":15184.782,"text":"委員在這邊有提了希望能夠簡列一千萬元和凍結一千萬元然後我們需要提出書面報告那這個部分要懇請委員同意免於簡列那凍結的部分和書面報告部分我們會遵照這個來執行"},{"start":15186.723,"end":15214.635,"text":"這是第16案的部分在第21案的部分委員提出來是特別針對我們台灣南部的地震海嘯海底監測系統建設計畫這個計畫的確在過去發生一些困難一部分是因為新冠疫情的關係整個供應鏈的重組還有物價的飆漲特別是它的海事工程其實還蠻複雜的"},{"start":15215.936,"end":15222.325,"text":"mentioneding the current market price and budget for the project,"},{"start":15232.5,"end":15232.88,"text":"閱讀委員會提出相關的說明。"},{"start":15262.768,"end":15282.793,"text":"希望你口才蠻不錯我看你都很熟的樣子我們有做一些功課有做功課?是是是應該要做的所有人你覺得呢?要不要給他刪?那就同意免刪那就是照凍結的部分然後提書面報告 謝謝"},{"start":15284.423,"end":15301.584,"text":"我這也很傷腦筋,我當召委一毛錢都沒刪,早上審了三個單位,一毛錢沒刪,等下上頭還以為我在幹什麼,能力比較差一點。不過氣象署真的大家對你們蠻有信心的,越做越好了。"},{"start":15302.939,"end":15316.931,"text":"這說真的,就跟我們次長以前在行政局,我代理的團隊真的很棒。我在現在對他還是,雖然沒看到人,非常尊敬。好吧,那我們5到25案,我們就凍結500萬好不好?可以嗎?"},{"start":15322.281,"end":15327.546,"text":"第二十六案。第二十六案我們合照也沒有來。大概凍結100萬你們說明一下好不好。"},{"start":15336.494,"end":15355.871,"text":"二十六案其實是的核心的精神主要是因為我們的民間在對氣象資訊就特別是有劇烈天氣的播報有的社會產會有一些誇大的部分那所以何委員希望說我們能夠提出比較清楚的這個說明用什麼樣的機制"},{"start":15356.852,"end":15357.873,"text":"二十六案凍結一百萬。二十七案。二十六案凍結一百萬書面報告。"},{"start":15377.336,"end":15405.069,"text":"二十七案凍結八十萬可以嗎?是,可以。如果可以的話就不要報告了嘛,好不好?是,對,這個部分主要是強化相關的防災費。好,二十七案凍結八十萬,書面報告解凍。那二十八案?二十八案後面總決議的部分我們全部都遵照辦理。二十八、二九、三十、三十一到多少?"},{"start":15405.973,"end":15425.645,"text":"到三十五。二十八到三十五。是。那就全部遵照辦理。是。我們就通過。好。好。對對。我知道。還沒完啦。"},{"start":15443.452,"end":15443.592,"text":"主席。"},{"start":15445.236,"end":15473.314,"text":"好協商完成做以下的宣告。一、今日協商結論均免於宣讀授權議事人員整理作為決議列入記錄。二、委員要求提供書面報告及相關資料請工程會、運安會、氣象署盡速以書面答覆。三、如有委員對於提案補簽列入記錄並刊登公表。針對今日的會議做以下的決議。一、本日預算審查結果照列或照協商結論通過。二、"},{"start":15475.171,"end":15493.339,"text":"本日通過決議文字授權主席及議事委員調整。三、113年度行政院公共工程委員會、國家運輸安全調查委員會及交通部中央氣象署等單位預算審查完畢。本日議程處理完畢。休息明日上午9時繼續開會。"},{"start":15508.223,"end":15508.844,"text":"議員報告案計6案。"},{"start":15524.244,"end":15545.317,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、處理112年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。二、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、處理112年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":15555.513,"end":15558.734,"text":"二、審查112年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":15580.003,"end":15583.471,"text":"你先用餐,辛苦,大家都這麼忙,我們是欣賞"}]}},{"id":"15315","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15315","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db69f9bd0cb75d545d8bd03a951da4504b46d53a332764a53553103c34c65c2ac95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於農業部主管，非營業部分：農業作業基金、農田水利事業作業基金、農業特別收入基金、農民退休基金。（處理））","type":"Full","date":"2023-11-29","start_time":"2023-11-29T08:30:14+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-10-8-19-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-11-29T12:25:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14086,"委員發言時間":"08:30:14 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":2284.457,"text":"第144項（農業金融屬4萬1千元（第145項（農糧屬及所屬642萬6千元（第146項（農田水利屬5百萬元（第147項（農業科技園區管理中心（773萬5千元以上均照列"},{"start":2298.188,"end":2304.052,"text":"第4款財產收入第171項,農業部651萬2千元第172項,林業及自然保育署及所屬2億1598萬8千元第173項,農村發展及水土保持署及所屬38萬元第104項,農業試驗所及所屬95萬5千元第175項,林業試驗所285萬7千元第176項,垂產試驗所330萬4千元第177項,蓄產試驗所及所屬167萬4千元第178項"},{"start":2327.407,"end":2333.369,"text":"受益研究所35萬4千元．第179項．農業藥物實驗所20萬元．第180項．生物多樣性研究所5萬4千元．第181項．查集飲料作業物改良場．8萬3千元．182項．種苗改良繁殖場10萬元．第183項．桃園農區改良場34萬元．第184項．苗栗"},{"start":2350.396,"end":2354.281,"text":"農地區農業改良廠12萬元、185項台中區農業改良廠16萬1千元、186項台南區農業改良廠24萬4千元、第187項高雄區農業改良廠2萬元、第188項花蓮區農業改良廠9萬元、第189項台東區農業改良廠2萬元"},{"start":2369.117,"end":2375.138,"text":"第190項漁業署及所屬73232,000元第191項動植物防疫檢疫署及所屬1253,000元第192項農業金融署83,000元193項農糧署及所屬249,500元以上均照列第194項農田水利署列數第195項農業科技園區管理中心1893萬元照列"},{"start":2396.758,"end":2408.067,"text":"第5款營業營業及事業收入第10項農業部原列6億1423萬8千元,增列第一幕投資收益3000萬元,區域均造列改列為6億4423萬8千元第7款其他收入第170項農業部5126萬9千元,第171項農業及自然保育署及所屬1億0837萬9千元"},{"start":2419.298,"end":2426.64,"text":"第172項．農村發展及學土保持署750萬元．173項．農業試驗所及所屬105萬5千元．170項．農業試驗所887萬元．第175項．學產試驗所1310萬5千元．第176項．區產試驗所及所屬494萬4千元．第177項．社會研究所1451萬6千元．第178項．農業藥物試驗所167萬5千元．"},{"start":2445.806,"end":2457.21,"text":"第179項．生物多樣性研究所109萬8千元．第180項．查檢與要作物改良場．759萬元．第181項．準備改良防治場．63萬1千元．第182項．桃園區農改場．189萬4千元．第180項．苗栗區農改場．101萬4千元．第184項．台中區農改場．429萬5千元．第185項．台南區農改場．315萬6千元．第186項．"},{"start":2474.415,"end":2476.937,"text":"高雄區農改場261萬3千元,第187項,花園區農改場56萬5千元,第188項,臺東區農改場119萬3千元,第189項,漁業署及所屬1891萬2千元"},{"start":2489.127,"end":2496.213,"text":"第190項動植物防疫檢驗署及所屬以129,000元。第191項農糧署及所屬11754,000元。第192項農田水利署3億5684萬元以上均照列193項農業科技園區管理中心無劣數。"},{"start":2507.901,"end":2514.908,"text":"二稅出部分第16款農業部主管第一項農業部1,125億4,073,000元照列本項通貨決議83項第二項林業及自然保育署及所屬85億2,984萬7千元照列本項通貨決議21項第三項農村發展及水土保持署及所屬57億7,300萬8千元照列"},{"start":2530.723,"end":2537.729,"text":"本項通貨決議五項第四項農業實驗所及所屬11億6294萬9千元照列本項通貨決議一項第五項林業實驗所8億1310萬7千元照列本項通貨決議一項第六項水產實驗所13億6876萬5千元照列本項通貨決議三項第七項"},{"start":2551.721,"end":2558.046,"text":"續採實驗所及所屬8億8196萬7千元照列本項通貨決議1項第8項受益研究所7億2496萬7千元照列第9項農業藥物實驗所6億1723萬6千元照列本項通貨決議2項第10項生物多樣性研究所2億"},{"start":2570.074,"end":2570.234,"text":"本項通過決議"},{"start":2586.943,"end":2592.468,"text":"第13項桃園區農業改良廠2億5578萬6千元照列第14項苗栗區農業改良廠1億5915萬4千元照列第15項臺中區農業改良廠2億7678萬3千元照列第16項臺南區農業改良廠2億9644萬3千元照列"},{"start":2607.142,"end":2612.947,"text":"第17項高雄區農業改良廠2億5267萬5千元照列第18項花蓮區農業改良廠2億5424萬1千元照列第19項臺東區農業改良廠1億8577萬照列第20項漁業署及所屬99億7215萬2千元照列本項通貨決議19項第21項動植物防疫檢疫署及所屬26億9778萬2千元照列本項通貨決議5項"},{"start":2637.305,"end":2647.37,"text":"第二十二項．農業金融署6億5,319萬9千元照列．第二十三項．農糧署及所屬52億5,662萬9千元照列．本項通協議十二項．第二十四項．農田水利署緣利719億2,186萬3千元．除第五目．非營業特種基金27億9,824萬4千元暫照列．是所屬非營業特種基金．審議確定再行調整外區域均照列．本項提案一案保留送院會處理"},{"start":2668.035,"end":2686.345,"text":"本項通過決議十三項．第25項．農業科技園區管理中心．8億5922萬8千元照列本項通過決議一項．繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會．單位預算及附屬單位預算．非營業部分．公平交易委員會主管．反托拉斯基金．決議"},{"start":2687.886,"end":2713.883,"text":"113年度中央政府總預算關於公平交易委員會．單位預算．稅務部分．第二款．罰款及賠償收入．第17項公平會一億一千八百九十五萬四千元照列．第四款．財產收入．第十八項公平二十五萬照列．第七款．其他收入．第十八項公平會九萬元照列．二稅出部分．第二款．行政院主管．第十三項公平交易委員會．三億四千六百五十八萬三千元照列．本項通貨決議"},{"start":2717.865,"end":2740.22,"text":"中央政府總預算．非營業部分．關於公平交易委員會主管．反托拉斯基金．公平交易委員會主管．特別收入基金．反托拉斯基金．業務計劃依據基金來源與用途．審查結果隨通調整．基金來源用途及餘處．基金來源5397萬3千元照列．基金用途8500萬5千元照列．本期短處3103萬2千元照列．"},{"start":2744.803,"end":2773.025,"text":"解繳工庫劣數．通過決議三項113年度公平交易委員會．單位預算．附屬單位預算．非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管．反托拉斯基金．均審查完均。103年度中央政府總預算．本會負責審查之公預預算．均已審查完均。正識別稅數預算．隨同以上機關別審查結果調整。提據審查報告提報財政委員會會診本會審查結果需交由黨團學商．院會討論時由翁昭吉委員出席說明"},{"start":2773.425,"end":2798.742,"text":"散會宣讀完畢好我們現在議事入站不處理我們現在繼續進行討論事項請宣讀繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於農業部主管．非營業部分．農業作業基金．農田水利事業作業基金．農業特別收入基金．農民退休基金今日處理宣讀完畢好"},{"start":2802.939,"end":2815.931,"text":"農委會主管的非營業基金11月15日已經詢答結束現在進行主項審查依據預算法第50條及相關規定作業基金部部分按業務計劃"},{"start":2819.059,"end":2836.412,"text":"業務收支、結繳公庫金額、轉投資計劃、固定資產之建設改良擴充、國庫增撥基金額及補辦預算等逐項審查特別收入基金部分照業務計劃基金來源用途及輿促、結繳公庫及補辦預算等逐項審查"},{"start":2842.176,"end":2857.235,"text":"信託基金部分按基金運用計劃總收入支出及輿促等逐項審查現在請宣讀今日審查項目與委員提案宣讀完畢後再進行協商請宣讀"},{"start":2859.109,"end":2865.854,"text":"113年度中央政府總預算案．農業部主管．附屬單位預算．非營業部分．農業作業基金．業務計劃請參閱預算書．業務總收入5億3177萬元．業務總支出6億4300萬8千元．本期短促1億1123萬8千元．結繳光庫金額無劣數．轉投資計劃無劣數．固定資產資建設改良擴充．1億5972萬5千元．國庫增波基金額無劣數．"},{"start":2888.713,"end":2895.758,"text":"補辦預算固定資產之建設改良擴充2724萬6千元．農田水利作業基金．業務計劃請參閱預算書．業務總收入99亿9440萬4千元．業務總支出127亿3314萬元．本期短處27亿3873萬6千元．結繳供庫金額無劣數．"},{"start":2914.401,"end":2918.806,"text":"轉投資計劃無劣數固定資產建設改良擴充95億2401萬2千元．國庫增撥基金額79億2864萬4千元．補辦預算固定資產建設改良擴充4908萬9千元．收回資金之轉投資3萬5千元．"},{"start":2935.726,"end":2941.807,"text":"資產之變賣2292萬9千元．農業特別收入基金業務計劃請參閱預算書．基金來源403億2213萬7千元．基金用途555億2636萬6千元．本期短處152億422萬9千元．繪繳供庫無劣數．補辦預算固定資產之建設改良擴充2000萬元．"},{"start":2964.321,"end":2967.263,"text":"農民退休基金運用計畫請參閱預算書總收入5億753萬5千元總支出159萬6千元本期剩餘5億593萬9千元"},{"start":2979.266,"end":3008.846,"text":"委員提案部分．農業作業基金第一案．業務收入、銷貨收入、續產改良作業基金徵列五百萬元．委員賴瑞隆等提案二．租金及權利金收入．農業科技園區作業基金徵列10%．委員蘇志芬等提案三．徵列一千萬元．委員陳明文等提案四．種苗改良繁殖作業基金．業務成本與費用、銷貨成本．農產品銷貨成本、檢列一百萬元．委員陳廷飛等提案"},{"start":3009.826,"end":3015.629,"text":"5.凍結5%委員賴瑞榮等提案6.續產改良作業基金業務成本與費用、銷貨成本．凍結15%委員捆紋及等提案7.材料及用品費,減列1000萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案8.農業科技園區作業基金總費用,減列800萬元．凍結1000萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案"},{"start":3031.976,"end":3038.499,"text":"業務外費用、財務費用、檢列50萬元委員陳亭飛等提案、10、凍結50萬元委員邱志偉等提案、11、凍結5%委員蔡奕宇等提案、12、農業科技園區作業基金一般建築及設備計劃、凍結15%委員孔文吉等提案。"},{"start":3050.124,"end":3061.81,"text":"13.請續裁改良作業基金應強化乳牛育種及繁殖技術經濟優化升級通盤規劃完善之因應策略及配套措施委員數字分等提案14."},{"start":3061.81,"end":3064.572,"text":"請農業部審酌政策性種子銷售所欲挑戰盤整檢討各項推廣作業之有效性委員楊瓊英等提案"},{"start":3072.616,"end":3091.883,"text":"15.臺東縱谷有機稻田,產造黑春香危害,以因應並改善,請農業部提出相關檢討報告,委員孔文吉等提案。16.為檢視農科園區作業基金出租土地相關議題,有效整合臺灣農業資源,請農業部提出相關檢討報告,委員孔文吉等提案。"},{"start":3095.368,"end":3102.134,"text":"17.為檢視農科園區土地存租率：請農業部提出相關檢討報告委員．文及等提案18."},{"start":3102.134,"end":3109.421,"text":"鑒於自民國114年起紐西蘭進口液態乳將全面降為零關稅勢必衝擊本土弱農要求農業部於一個月內研擬相關"},{"start":3114.546,"end":3132.452,"text":"因應策略．委員陳超明等提案。．建於農科園區作業基金每年出租資產收入．能不符之應成本．要求農業部於一個月內減送改善計劃書面報告．委員陳超明等提案。．為降低臺紐經濟合作協定．開放零關稅進口紐西蘭液態乳品．衝擊國產牛乳．"},{"start":3139.974,"end":3159.502,"text":"銷量．強化乳牛育種．其繁殖技術經濟優化升級委員丘營等提案21續產改良作業基金．加強成本費用控管．提升營運效能委員丘營等提案22農科園區出租率偏低．檢討原因並嚴禮因應措施委員丘營等提案"},{"start":3161.623,"end":3180.739,"text":"23.請農業部於2個月內提出綠肥種子精進各項推廣措施以及如何降低成本之書面報告委員丘志偉等提案24.預計113年度生乳銷售數量減少（請農業部於1個月內提出完善之因應策略及配套措施之書面報告委員丘志偉等提案"},{"start":3182.341,"end":3191.252,"text":"25.請農業部於兩個月內提出《農業科技園區租金收支檢討及使用情形活化之書面報告》委員邱志偉等提案26."},{"start":3191.252,"end":3199.843,"text":"農業部應強化乳牛育種及繁殖技術經濟優化升級,通辦規劃完善製印策略及配套措施委員陳廷飛等提案"},{"start":3202.082,"end":3222.942,"text":"27.請農業部於一個月內就談有協定衝擊本土弱農業資相關因應措施及弱農產業發展基金之籌備情形提出說明書面報告委員陳亭飛等提案28.綠肥種子推廣銷售層衰退要求該基金檢討各項推廣作業之有效性嚴謀解決方案委員陳明文等提案"},{"start":3224.483,"end":3242.7,"text":"29.為因應114年臺紐經濟合作協定生效後．對弱農之影響．要求該基金積極輔導弱農經濟產業升級委員成名文等提案。．農田水利事業作業基金30案．業務外收入．其他業務外收入增業3000萬元委員成名文等提案。．31.業務成本與費用凍結1000萬元委員邱志偉等提案。．"},{"start":3247.825,"end":3248.946,"text":"32.業務成本與費用 業務費用 檢列300萬元委員陳廷飛等提案33."},{"start":3248.946,"end":3250.167,"text":"凍結100萬元委員邱志偉等提案 34."},{"start":3250.167,"end":3251.528,"text":"服務費用禮運費 檢列500萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案35."},{"start":3251.528,"end":3253.13,"text":"服務費用公關慰勞費 檢列100萬元凍結200萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案"},{"start":3270.523,"end":3277.306,"text":"36﹐服務費用推展費﹐凍結200萬元委員陳明文等提案37﹐凍結100萬元委員邱志偉等提案38﹐一般建築及設備計劃﹐減列1000萬元委員陳亭飛等提案39﹐凍結1億元委員陳明文等提案40﹐凍結500萬元委員邱志偉等提案"},{"start":3291.251,"end":3306.522,"text":"請農水基金因依法令規定．全面清查被占用土地現況．研謀各分類適當之處理方式．與一個月內提出素面報告委員書之分等提案請農業部農田水利署於一個月內．提出110至112年度固定資產建設計劃完成率檢討報告．委員賴樂榮等提案"},{"start":3316.055,"end":3328.37,"text":"43.請農業部農田水利署於一個月內提出具體各分會﹐活動非失業用不動產之規劃書面報告﹐文賴銳容等提案。﹐農業特別收入基金﹐"},{"start":3330.185,"end":3355.56,"text":"五十四基金用途凍結一百萬元委員邱志偉等提案一、農業發展基金五十五案．農政收入、農林漁牧收入、糧政業務、糧食銷售、分裂一元委員陳明文等提案五十六糧政業務計劃．列八百萬元凍結一千萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案五十七凍結十分之一委員廖國棟等提案五十八凍結百分之五委員蔡宇宇等提案"},{"start":3356.961,"end":3362.85,"text":"59.穩定肥料及相關資材供需計劃,減列500萬元凍結1000萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案。60.凍結10%委員蘇志芬等提案。61.凍結3000萬元委員陳明文等提案。62.凍結100萬元委員邱志偉等提案。"},{"start":3376.106,"end":3399.638,"text":"產銷調節計劃．列五百萬元凍結一千萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案．列一百萬元委員陳亭飛等提案．列百分之十委員蘇志芬等提案．列五千萬元委員陳明文等提案．列二十分之一委員廖國棟等提案．列一百萬元委員邱志偉等提案．列服務費用凍結百分之十委員李玉玲等提案．"},{"start":3401.319,"end":3403.322,"text":"70.農業保險計劃 檢列500萬元 凍結1000萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案 71."},{"start":3403.322,"end":3403.923,"text":"凍結10%委員廖國棟等提案 72."},{"start":3403.923,"end":3405.025,"text":"凍結5%委員蔡玉等提案 73."},{"start":3405.025,"end":3406.187,"text":"凍結5000萬元委員陳明文等提案"},{"start":3416.962,"end":3427.989,"text":"74.凍結一千萬元委員陳昌明等提案75.凍結五百萬元委員邱志偉等提案76.與產業保險計劃服務費用凍結百分之五委員呂玉玲等提案77.農業保險推動及輔導計劃服務費用推展費用凍結百分之十委員呂玉玲等提案"},{"start":3436.874,"end":3458.183,"text":"78加勤流行性感冒防疫計劃凍結十分之一委員廖國棟等提案79農地資生產環境整備及維護管理計劃凍結十分之一委員廖國棟等提案205發展及造林基金．勞務收入服務收入增列4000萬元委員陳明文等提案81森林遊樂及林業鐵路經營管理計劃減列500萬元凍結10%委員賴瑞榮等提案"},{"start":3466.026,"end":3469.468,"text":"82.檢列500萬元委員陳亭飛等提案83."},{"start":3469.468,"end":3472.251,"text":"凍結5%委員蔡宇等提案84."},{"start":3472.251,"end":3475.994,"text":"凍結1000萬元委員陳昌明等提案85."},{"start":3475.994,"end":3485.221,"text":"構建固定資產、無形資產、非理財、目的資產及投資及營社與設施工程支出、構建固定資產、檢列3%委員陳亭飛等提案"},{"start":3490.204,"end":3492.625,"text":"86.凍結一千萬元委員陳明文等提案3."},{"start":3492.625,"end":3493.205,"text":"農業天然災害救助基金87."},{"start":3493.205,"end":3495.626,"text":"農業天然災害救助計劃檢列1%委員陳廷飛等提案88."},{"start":3495.626,"end":3496.526,"text":"凍結5%委員蔡易宇等提案4."},{"start":3496.526,"end":3496.746,"text":"漁業發展基金89."},{"start":3496.746,"end":3497.466,"text":"農業天然災害救助基金"},{"start":3508.01,"end":3512.936,"text":"與業發展補助計劃、凍結50%委員蘇志芬等提案、90凍結150萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案、91服務費用凍結10%委員李玉玲等提案、5農產品受進口損害救助基金、92"},{"start":3523.989,"end":3535.143,"text":"調整產業貨防範措施計劃、農產品全球通路拓展計劃、檢列一千萬元凍結一千萬元委員邱志偉等提案、93凍結5%委員陳廷飛等提案、94凍結5%委員邱盈盈等提案。"},{"start":3539.588,"end":3565.353,"text":"95.凍結一千萬元委員陳明文等提案96.服務費用凍結五百萬元委員陳超明等提案97.因應貿易開放養豬產業轉型升級計劃檢列五百萬元委員陳廷飛等提案98.凍結百分之十委員蘇志芬等提案99.凍結百分之五委員蔡奕宇等提案100.凍結一千萬元委員邱志偉等提案101.服務費用凍結五百萬元委員陳超明等提案"},{"start":3566.613,"end":3569.014,"text":"6.農村再生基金102."},{"start":3569.014,"end":3570.495,"text":"基金用途剪裂500萬元,凍結1500萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案103."},{"start":3570.495,"end":3571.155,"text":"凍結5%委員蔡玉宇等提案104."},{"start":3571.155,"end":3573.616,"text":"農村再生規劃及人力培育計畫,凍結1000萬元委員邱志偉等提案105."},{"start":3573.616,"end":3575.137,"text":"農村農產業人力活化,剪裂600萬元委員陳亭飛等提案106."},{"start":3575.137,"end":3576.177,"text":"剪裂150萬元,凍結500萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案107."},{"start":3576.177,"end":3576.197,"text":"凍結1000萬元"},{"start":3596.499,"end":3603.07,"text":"委員陳明文等提案、108農村再生建設及發展計劃、凍結一千萬元委員邱志偉等提案"},{"start":3605.667,"end":3615.271,"text":"109.農村再生基金因省慎評估實際缺工情形並妥擬因應對策於一個月內提出書面報告委員蘇志芬等提案110."},{"start":3615.271,"end":3625.895,"text":"領悟基金因檢討強化各項工程設施與設備之更新及構制等事前規劃評估作業委員蘇志芬等提案111."},{"start":3625.895,"end":3632.538,"text":"請農發基金因持續檢討道明產業政策之妥適性於一個月內提出書面報告委員蘇志芬等提案"},{"start":3634.819,"end":3657.408,"text":"112請農發基金應持續加強宣導並檢討經濟保單內容設計以提升農民投保意願於一個月內提出書面報告委員蘇志芬等提案113請農業天然災害救助基金應檢視現行農業保險之給付範圍及額度檢討目前天災救助額度及範圍之合理性委員蘇志芬等提案114"},{"start":3659.429,"end":3674.322,"text":"要求農業部於一個月內具體提出近年分散外銷市場並擴大出口規模執行成果及基金作為之書面報告委員賴瑞榮等提案。115要求林業署應檢討．利造林之推動方案"},{"start":3674.882,"end":3693.388,"text":"提交專案報告委員賴瑞榮等提案116為落實我國漁業產業整體體質韌性並提高競爭力要求農業部於一個月內提出本計劃各項事項之辦理進度預算分配情形以及成果報告委員賴瑞榮等提案"},{"start":3695.269,"end":3717.306,"text":"117要求農業部檢討現行農業保險之及附範圍節額度以及目前天災救助額度及範圍之合理性委員賴瑞榮等提案118漁業基金規模變小不利漁業署推動相關沿近海及遠洋漁業發展要求農業部於一個月內提出書面報告委員賴瑞榮等提案119"},{"start":3720.269,"end":3732.691,"text":"農業部應於一個月提出漁業基金收入來源擴充辦法透過提高基金自給率降低國庫壓力委員賴瑞榮等提案120請農業部確實檢討農產品產銷失衡之問題癥結並研磨改善產業結構委員楊瓊英等提案121請農業部檢討強化各項工程設施與設備之更新及構置等事前規劃評估作業委員楊瓊英等提案"},{"start":3750.855,"end":3769.885,"text":"122請農業部．針對森林遊樂區．遊客人數未如預期．營運情況欠佳．積極研謀改善方案委員陽瓊英等提案123請農業部因應貿易政策開放．保障豬農收益．針對部分關鍵績效指標未達原定目標．通盤檢討並加強辦理委員陽瓊英等提案"},{"start":3774.328,"end":3795.199,"text":"124.請農業部具體檢討並改善農業勞動力不足之問題委員楊瓊英等提案125.為紓解農村人口老化及勞動力不足問題政府需檢討相關政策委員孔文吉等提案126.該如何為未來領悟發展及造林基金財務規劃請於一個月內提出具體改善報告委員孔文吉等提案"},{"start":3796.819,"end":3816.804,"text":"127.建於現行公糧收購以干穀及屍穀兩種形態進行．要求農業部應統一方式收購．並於一個月內提送數目報告委員陳超明等提案。128.依督促檢討妥善規劃基金整體財務資源或可研議增加供庫撥補以外資氏族財源．"},{"start":3819.064,"end":3835.619,"text":"委員．迎等提案129．農業部．持續檢討稻米產業政策之妥適性．研議提升收購工糧之品質與積極拓展銷售管道委員．迎等提案130．農發基金．確實檢討產銷失衡農產品之問題癥結並積極研議改善產業結構委員．迎等提案131．"},{"start":3844.706,"end":3861.79,"text":"農業部與積極開發保單之同時．持續加強宣導並檢討經濟保單內容設計．提升農民投保意願委員丘瑩的提案。．132．八仙山雙流及池南等三處森林遊樂區虧損加劇．營運情況惡化以研磨改善．"},{"start":3865.891,"end":3878.644,"text":"委員．委員等提案133為提高農民保障及協助農民建立風險分攤與管理意識以檢討現行天災救助額度與範圍妥適性委員．委員等提案134請農業部於三個月內提出良政業務計劃改善報告確實檢討稻米產業政策委員．委等提案"},{"start":3890.434,"end":3897.656,"text":"135.請漁業署於一個月內提出漁發基金存續必要性及業務移轉可行性書面報告委員丘志偉等提案136.請農業部於3月內針對檢討森林遊樂區營運及改善計畫提出書面報告委員丘志偉等提案"},{"start":3910.269,"end":3922.613,"text":"137政府公庫撥款收入暫農發基金之基金來源比例預期成．農業部應督促檢討妥善規劃基金整體財源資源委員陳亭飛等提案138漁業發展基金本期預計短促達1554萬3000元．農業部應督促檢討妥善規劃基金整體財務資源委員陳亭飛等提案139"},{"start":3938.619,"end":3959.966,"text":"政府公庫撥款收入．農村再生基金之基金來源比例逾9成．農業部應督促檢討．妥善規劃基金整體財務資源．委員陳亭飛等提案。140漁業署應審酌基金存續之必要性．並研議將剩餘業務一列公務預算辦理．委員陳亭飛等提案。141"},{"start":3962.045,"end":3975.169,"text":"要求積極落實《農村再生條例》立法目的推動農村永續發展及活化再生委員陳明文等提案農民退休基金142投資業務成本簡列10萬元委員陳亭飛等提案143"},{"start":3980.651,"end":3998.407,"text":"請農退基金應檢討問題癥結,積極提升農民參與率,於一個月內提出書面報告委員數字分等提案。請農業部研議對策,鼓勵農民儲蓄養老以提高農民退休儲金比例,委員楊瓊英等提案。"},{"start":4000.469,"end":4007.354,"text":"145.農民退休儲金．提繳年齡層官之輕農參與率相較偏低．檢討問題癥結．積極提升農民參與率．委員丘瑩等提案146."},{"start":4007.354,"end":4011.776,"text":"請農業部於兩個月內提出如何有效提升農民參與．農退儲金意願之書面報告．委員丘志偉等提案"},{"start":4023.484,"end":4047.204,"text":"147．農業部因省盛聯盟適當投資策略創造基金長期穩定之收支收益請農業部於一個月內提出書面報告委員陳清飛等提案148．要求該基金聯盟適當投資策略創造長期穩定之投資收益以保障退休農民經濟安全委員陳明文等提案149．"},{"start":4049.265,"end":4069.779,"text":"農民退休儲金、輕農參與率相較偏低．要求該基金檢討問題癥結．以積極提升農民參與率．委員陳明文等提案。 宣讀完畢好,我們先休息三分鐘"},{"start":5070.845,"end":5071.968,"text":"本集完"},{"start":5121.343,"end":5147.234,"text":"好繼續開會那我們現在就開始協商我們先確認議事錄請問同仁剛剛宣讀的上次會議議事錄有錯誤沒有好議事錄確定好我們現在開始來處理113年度農業作業基金的提案那我們先處理這一個"},{"start":5150.448,"end":5173.698,"text":"業務收入,我們有三個案,我們先處理第一案是賴洛榮委員要建議增列500萬,請農業部說明有關於稅產改良作業基金的部分,賴委員要求增列500萬,我們遵照辦理"},{"start":5176.5,"end":5204.83,"text":"好,對,我就是希望好不好,就是我來整列啦,就朝這個方向來努力啦好,好,好,好,那就照案通過那處理第二到第三案是蘇志文委員跟陳明文委員是希望這個租金及權利金收入要整列那有關於第二案跟第三案是根據我們那個農業科技園區的作業基金的部分"},{"start":5205.47,"end":5228.835,"text":"那這個部分本身的那個相關的這些租金跟他的相關的這個權利金大致上都是固定的那特別是因為過去過去兩年因為疫情的關係有一些已經有一些那個租金的一個減免那今年度我們廢物那明年度的部長我請教你好不好我問你一下你認為我們的出租率應該多少才算是正常"},{"start":5230.373,"end":5247.237,"text":"跟委員報告我們那個農科園區是有兩期那第一期的部分那出租率已經達到90%那第二期的部分是前兩年才開始就是開始就是就是說你出租率應該是90（那目前第二期的部分90幾公斤已經有20幾公斤的出租數據了90%才算是正常嗎沒有錯吧"},{"start":5251.298,"end":5275.764,"text":"對就是說慢慢沒有錯嘛齁沒有錯嘛齁就是說你們應該出出力的90%第一期就90%嘛對對所以第二期現在才17.9%20幾了20幾了嘛齁你現在那個報告你是19那就20幾了嘛20幾了所以你的意思是90%是正常那一季你什麼時候可以達到90%我們一季是一年到10公頃到20公頃一年一年那113年可以達到幾%"},{"start":5278.584,"end":5305.791,"text":"113明年度我們是起喜看看是不是有10公頃的土地可以出租10公頃是幾百分之十所以你的意思是一年10公頃10%你要達到98還要再9年意思是這樣子嗎對其實第一期的部分它也是90幾公頃將近100公頃也是走了20年才達到這樣所以你現在意思就是說你現在20%算是正常的"},{"start":5306.812,"end":5317.065,"text":"所以剛剛你講的這個因為什麼的疫情關係是根本這個因素不存在嗎?你意思是說我本來那就是1%是正常的啊,是1年之後10%、10%、10%要走10萬年了啊?是這樣嗎?"},{"start":5322.472,"end":5322.892,"text":"議員８發言委員："},{"start":5347.819,"end":5352.302,"text":"我會去要求他們不能用過往的習性每年10%現在本身的整個農企業慢慢的跟政府結合了"},{"start":5368.773,"end":5396.258,"text":"我覺得那個比例應該在增加啦我最起碼有在委員會我們有提醒你啦不要以為你這樣做是正常的啦你不要以為你現在的心態就是正常的嘛就說這樣10%是正常的喔我是10%是正常不正常啦你的基金要用去經營你要達到80%啦對不對你現在這樣做是錯的啦好不好好我想我們會再檢討一下看看怎麼樣去加強那個出租的那個比例"},{"start":5398.599,"end":5409.524,"text":"主席我們用組決議的方式把它處理好不好好 謝謝委員那第二跟第三案都改組決議好那我們現在處理第四跟第五案來請農委會說明"},{"start":5412.93,"end":5428.778,"text":"第四案跟第五案是有關於那個作業那個總培改良作業基金的部分那這個基金本身最主要就是我們一些政策性的種子包括玉米、高粱都是透過總培改良廠、繁殖廠在繁殖的也繁殖本身有不同的品種"},{"start":5429.838,"end":5452.1,"text":"那有些品種可能因為氣候變遷的關係有些品種可能比較不耐相關的一些溫度的關係那有些品種可能比較早熟那有一些地區他可能會種比較晚熟的所以會造成有一些當初在預估的時候的種子本身的一些庫存那消費我們會有盡量能夠多元利用那第二個部分就是說整個的"},{"start":5453.121,"end":5473.926,"text":"改良農產品的一個銷貨成本那相對的他會影響到我們的採種本身的量能那這個部分我想推廣帶廊商的部分的玉米的部分的需求高量的需求也是需要這樣的一個銷貨整個的一個費用那也建請這個委員能夠建議免三照原例數"},{"start":5477.672,"end":5493.409,"text":"總苗齁,剛剛講到玉米齁,事實上我覺得我們因為所有玉米在我們嘉義是最多齁,我覺得我們現在的總苗出來都被民風3號打趴,幾乎所有的農民都是在搶民風3號啊,搶不到民風3號才回來買我們的台農8號,是不是這樣?"},{"start":5499.496,"end":5499.916,"text":"就是我們的農民為什麼"},{"start":5523.616,"end":5529.701,"text":"不會想要去中我們本土那一定有他的原因嘛大家都在搶民風3號越來越貴"},{"start":5532.902,"end":5556.69,"text":"總值越來越貴,他們的成本就提高,他們還是在搶,這怎麼貴他們還是在搶,這個我覺得這個要去想辦法。對,我們會,所以那個CNN單位我們會積極叫他們預出一些比較中晚熟的,因為某些地區他需要比較中晚熟的,去搭配那個節氣嘛,去整。所以七六八,現在目前的七六八的效果就不錯了,新的品質就比較好。有比較好。"},{"start":5559.751,"end":5583.793,"text":"好來這個各位委員每一件每一件那第4跟第5案如果照他們委員是要檢列喔還有凍結喔對我們是建議不要檢列跟凍結照原列數照原列數那是不是可以改組決議好不好好改組決議好那第4跟第5案陳平輝委員跟賴瑞榮委員的提案都改組決議對都改組決議"},{"start":5585.495,"end":5603.251,"text":"好,那我們現在處理第6跟第7案,來請說明。那第6跟第7是有關於那個續產改良作業基金的部分。那續產改良作業基金裡面在做的最主要是飼料啦,飼料本身,因為我們在做相關的這些整個的續產繁殖的時候,那些飼料"},{"start":5605.293,"end":5631.286,"text":"是最大的一個業務成本那飼料因為過去兩年整個飼料的玉米比較高漲相對的現在目前雖然說開始有比較緩降但是還是相對於其他的其他的年代年份還是比較屬於高點所以我們這個部分我們會積極去尋找國內的替代的試炒料但是相對的這樣的一個業務的成本我們也希望說能夠免於凍結然後造源劣素"},{"start":5636.201,"end":5646.787,"text":"請問各位委員我的約改組決議第7案改組決議好那就第7案改組決議那其餘預算照列"},{"start":5648.083,"end":5666.877,"text":"好,那我們再處理第8到第11案來請部長說明第8到第11案本身是有關於農業科技園區的一個作業基金那其實這個作業基金裡面本身有幾個比較重要的就是委員在關切的就是有關於整個的一個"},{"start":5668.479,"end":5693.775,"text":"一個招商的部分剛才陳秉文委員也建議了然後剛才賴委員也提到了像這個部分我們現在目前已經招引了大概494家然後面積的出租率也越來越剛才已經達到90那二期的部分我們會盡可能的去加強他的年增加率這個部分我們會努力提升那第二個部分是有關於相關的業務的這些"},{"start":5697.118,"end":5713.272,"text":"進駐裡面的這些企業本身的一個培育人才培育是一個非常重要的那我們希望說進到園區裡面的那個業務能夠彼此的互相也能夠當作一個合作的一個異業的合作夥伴那這個部分我們也是在整個的總費用裡面去做這些處理的"},{"start":5713.812,"end":5740.122,"text":"那第9案本身的這些財務費用最主要是利息的部分,利息的部分有上升好像陳婷婷委員所關切的這個議題裡面因為貸款的利息現在目前有增加然後另外在這裡的這些財務費裡面有一些必須要去處理水資源的維修就相關的這些污水的維修那等一下還會有一些興建的部分所以這個部分還是建請我們委員能夠建議免刪除免凍結造原列數"},{"start":5741.414,"end":5755.324,"text":"副部長可不可以說明一下農業科技園區作業基金的部分原來的3.9億後來又再增加了1098萬左右決算數也增加4千多萬這個要不要再說明一下"},{"start":5757.625,"end":5771.611,"text":"來 等一下那個陳其邦委員先發言後再一起說明我的部分我可以改組決議但是部長應該知道我的用意在哪裡就是說我們的後壁藍花園區"},{"start":5773.952,"end":5794.963,"text":"當然在當時候您有說現在已經報給行政院報院了但是我希望說這個部分能夠給我們快速的一個答覆怎麼樣把它整個準備好而不是讓我們覺得說給了中央好像感覺還是一樣這部分比較重要謝謝"},{"start":5798.659,"end":5824.067,"text":"主要我們整個管理會增加是因為我們廠商加速這幾年有增加所以它維護管理成本會增加尤其是污水處理量有兩家大食品廠進廠那污水量的處理量會增加所以在這邊跟我們說說好那我的也改組決議了好那我這案也是改組決議好那第"},{"start":5826.034,"end":5848.475,"text":"8到第11案預算照列賴瑞隆、陳廷飛第8、9、11案改組決議我們接下來處理第12案那第12案本身的這個部分最重要的就是我們正在辦理水資源的第三處理場的污水處理場的第三期跟第四期的擴建工程"},{"start":5849.218,"end":5874.735,"text":"那因為現在目前原區包括第二期的原區開始進入了以後那相關的這些污水的處理要符合相關的保準所以我們針對污水處理廠在前兩年就開始規劃然後現在就正在興建那我們希望在這個預算能夠照原列數來編列好沒意見如果沒有意見我們再按預算照列謝謝接下來是"},{"start":5878.636,"end":5881.823,"text":"處理主決議案第13案遵照辦理"},{"start":5883.063,"end":5909.205,"text":"好 那就照案通過第14案 遵照辦理 照案通過第15案遵照辦理 照案通過第16遵照辦理 照案通過第17遵照辦理 照案通過第18遵照辦理 照案通過第19遵照辦理 照案通過第20遵照辦理 照案通過第21遵照辦理 照案通過第22遵照辦理 照案通過第23遵照辦理 照案通過第24遵照辦理"},{"start":5909.725,"end":5921.6,"text":"遭難通過25遵照辦理遭難通過26遵照辦理遭難通過2727有部分的文字修正那是不是可以唸一下"},{"start":5923.177,"end":5950.734,"text":"委員我們這個案子我們建議文字修正就是那一個有關於要成立若農產業發展基金這幾個字我們建議修正為牛產業升級及轉型發展中層計畫那這個部分最後一行也一併做文字上的一個調整以上那有跟這個廷輝委員好OK好謝謝委員那就依修正後通過"},{"start":5953.407,"end":5975.388,"text":"來28 遵照辦理 早安通報29 遵照辦理等一下等一下 因為我講一下喔 29案齁 這我是我是建立農業部啦我覺得臺紐經濟協定生效以後整個紐西蘭的生如是大吉齁 進入我們臺灣市場沒有錯吧"},{"start":5976.283,"end":5988.55,"text":"是在2013年我們簽訂了對嘛所以影響我們國內的肉農生計這是很多很多肉農有特別跟我反映就是說其實他們他們進口的這些"},{"start":5991.551,"end":6016.107,"text":"所謂鮮乳大多數都是利用這個超高溫來殺菌嘛對不對所以造成大量的營養分都已經流失了跟鮮乳的養分含量是不一樣的喔而且他們的運輸期限也很長那保鮮這個期限大概都是在30天以上所以這樣子算不算"},{"start":6017.268,"end":6040.589,"text":"算不算叫做先汝?所以我們先汝的定義到底有沒有?我跟委員報告兩點第一點就是說先汝本身的保存期限那這個部分可能是跟衛福部針對先汝本身的這些製程有關的部分我們會跟衛福部來做協商到今天為止衛福部對先汝也還沒有定義嗎?沒有錯吧?"},{"start":6042.423,"end":6060.93,"text":"是不是這樣子?是不是這樣子?先祖有沒有定義?有沒有定義?所謂先祖是什麼?你定義一下目前的衛福部的定義是生乳經過殺菌之後以包裝冷藏販售的乳汁有沒有期限?"},{"start":6061.75,"end":6075.759,"text":"你今天講沒有期限所以這個沒有期限喔所以其實鮮乳如果在國內的話是從生產到消費者其實他的時間是很短的喔有的人是三年"},{"start":6080.897,"end":6086.925,"text":"但是你說從紐西蘭進口到台灣從他們生產到運輸到台灣進到市場要30天喔"},{"start":6096.724,"end":6121.173,"text":"這就是因為針對衛福部來說的說你生乳經過消毒以後包裝這個消毒牽涉到製程啦那相對的製程比較無菌的時候他們原廠所列的保存件要管所以這個部分我們會跟衛福部看看說怎麼樣去有沒有可能修改的空間這第一個第二個就是說我們更重要就是在乎我們台灣的牛奶不會因為"},{"start":6124.974,"end":6147.97,"text":"紐西蘭進口而上市這個信心所以我們也規劃了非常多的相關的策略不要緊我是覺得是這樣子當然台紐的一個經濟協定當然進口先來這我們無可厚非但是我們也要保障我們國內的這些弱龍尤其所謂的先祖的定義要清楚是了解"},{"start":6148.51,"end":6168.583,"text":"所以今天我們是不是主席能不能做一個主決議就是希望這個農業部跟衛福部能夠盡是讓所謂這個先辱這個定義能夠清楚的明定讓很多的這個業者是可以去遵循先注意你不會亂去發功課頂多他們這個從國外進口頂多是"},{"start":6173.635,"end":6196.962,"text":"保久乳吧我跟委員報告你怎麼會叫做鮮乳呢但是我們現在強調了臺灣鮮乳所以我們現在在相關的那個牛奶標籤裡面已經要做了修正也經過了大部分的酪農的同意食品廠的同意在原來標籤裡面會去強調臺灣鮮乳的部分這個部分可以做一些市場區隔沒有 這要不然"},{"start":6198.622,"end":6219.069,"text":"我還是建議你們跟國務部還是要還要去明定先主的定義啦好不好在明定之前你們要制定一個標籤啦要讓人家知道這個叫做臺灣先主我是覺得這樣子也讓市場能夠很清楚的一眼就變知了阿不然你跟我說紐西蘭他不跟你說他是紐西蘭進口阿"},{"start":6219.929,"end":6248.662,"text":"未來我們台灣鮮乳就會很明確的規定只有用國產的那個生乳去製成的這些鮮乳才能夠標台灣鮮乳那我們現在也有技術去區分國產的國內的乳牛所生產的牛奶鮮乳跟國外的鮮乳的差異性這個技術上我們已經開發出來了所以後續我們可以去做這樣的一個市場計劃我們今天就是就是這一個主決議希望農業部跟衛福部能夠盡是明定鮮乳的定義好不好"},{"start":6250.343,"end":6269.182,"text":"來那是不是請農業部這邊草擬一下好不好寫你們把主決議寫出來好謝謝委員那我們等一下來處理來那個賴樂榮委員沒有沒有好那2829案就是先改主決議好那你們對就照案通過對照案通過"},{"start":6271.735,"end":6296.176,"text":"好,這樣陳委員的這個主決議案我們等一下再處理我們現在就來處理農田水利事業作業基金那首先先處理第30案這個陳民務委員的提案來請說明這個30案的部分來我講一下先講,阿民你來答我水利會變成公務機關以後那麼那些不動產"},{"start":6297.637,"end":6322.042,"text":"到底有沒有在妥善運用他的收益有沒有報告委員是我們有積極在妥善的運用而且我們這幾年的這個收入事實上都是每年的收益大概多少我們每年的收益大概都是接在三十幾億三十幾億目前非事業這個不動產的對戰略面積有多少我們一共有這個124公頃"},{"start":6324.808,"end":6342.234,"text":"這個部分要怎麼處理?報告委員,因為過去在水利會時期,各地的佔用情形都有它很特殊的一些因素,所以我們採取的是分級分類,所以像我們對於有那個緊急的公共危害的,我們會優先處理,像我們在去年,我們就處理了氣供傾。這些都是佔用的嗎?"},{"start":6344.115,"end":6353.061,"text":"7公頃都佔用了嗎應該是跟委員報告我們整個金管的土地一共有2萬5千多公頃其中這2萬5千公頃裡面有124公頃有被佔用那我們去年就已經開始分級分類分級分類是120幾公頃分級分類還是所有"},{"start":6366.391,"end":6368.776,"text":"被佔用的一共124公頃,我們針對這124公頃分級分類然後來逐年處理你排斥以後可以增加多少收入?"},{"start":6378.21,"end":6397.497,"text":"我們排除以後就要看它的這樣的一個特性那根據委員報告我們大概平均如果是非事業用地它的收益會比較大那事業用地其實它本來就不會有收益先就是像我們渠道那上面有被加蓋那如果不當了加蓋會影響通水那你把它移開了之後是讓我們的那個水能夠通的比較順"},{"start":6398.257,"end":6418.837,"text":"市長我是這樣講啦這個被佔到的面積喔事實上有很多人的因素啦我只能講到這裡啦所以這個你們確實是應該要去好好徹底了解一下當年的水利會跟現在的公務機關其實是不一樣的形態的所以站在公務機關的立場上"},{"start":6420.379,"end":6436.752,"text":"對這些被佔領的土地我們應該要比較有一定的雷力風情的手段要不然是安地理的勾結還是在的好不好我特別提出來謝謝陳慶輝委員"},{"start":6440.915,"end":6456.129,"text":"謝謝主席六處長我之前有建議過就是說我們可能因為農田水利署有一些剛好在跟縣市政府旁邊的一些道路或勾取就是說一些"},{"start":6458.771,"end":6477.603,"text":"臨興地、銜接的地方現在變成髒亂處因為你沒有整理市政府也不知道怎麼接管到底我們這個部分該怎麼處理我知道我們現在農田水利署在看要怎麼樣全國統一"},{"start":6482.927,"end":6496.577,"text":"有些縣市像台南市台南市如果我願意就是說市政府願意跟我們農田水利署來做一個合作也就是說你整理完之後我來接管這些可以優先來處理"},{"start":6497.62,"end":6524.79,"text":"是是是不要是說我全國統一全國你要統一是很困難如果地方政府願意我們優先來辦理是不是可以把它切割出來否則真的你看我們已經去看過好幾次髒亂的地方那雖然沒錯我們現在已經陸續有些編列預算來做可是有些就是旁邊一點點那其實把它整理好之後或是"},{"start":6526.494,"end":6538.279,"text":"願意如果那個區公所願意來接管願意來做整理我們可以優先來讓他接管由他們來花錢也可以啊就是說怎麼樣去做我覺得應該有一套辦法優先順序出來"},{"start":6541.74,"end":6565.86,"text":"非常感謝委員的指導的確因為委員提醒有這些事情之後那我們現在已經有製作出統一的規範出來就是說我們過去大概都是把使用權跟產權是合在一起的那我們現在把它切開變成說如果地方政府他們有需要這些細地那只要他們願意接管我們可以整理完之後然後移交給他們接管但是不會動到所有權"},{"start":6566.42,"end":6590.134,"text":"因為東奧所有權就涉及到非常復雜的法規所以我們把它切開之後那現在逐步這樣再處理那麼事實上都跟各地的地方政府都有很好的默契所以只要是現在如果我們統整出來像台南市統整出來若願意的話你們都可以去做這樣的協助就對了而且你們先幫忙整理然後再由地方來協助算是認養啦"},{"start":6592.398,"end":6599.473,"text":"就是把使用權交給地方政府那如果說那個地方未來要開發需要動到所有權我們再來處理所有權的事"},{"start":6602.278,"end":6627.928,"text":"好那部長請說明這個30案第30案我們就是遵照辦理就是增列3000萬好那就照案通過來接下來處理第31到第33案來請部長說明跟大衛報告那31案就是剛剛委員有垂詢有關這個佔用的這個事情那我們現在都有在分級分類然後來逐步的這樣的處理那32案跟33案"},{"start":6629.329,"end":6646.665,"text":"那最主要是委員有在關心說為什麼我們明年編的這個質疑委員的費用那麼會比111年的這個決算還要多那跟大會報告因為我們在每年事實上我們質疑委員的費用編列都是一樣那在111年的時候因為那時候疫情突然發生所以"},{"start":6647.265,"end":6664.89,"text":"就導致當時大概因為一些這個防疫的指引的關係所以很多會議都整個停下來但是我們在112年之後時常都陸陸續續恢復那是近期大會能夠支持我們繼續編列這個質疑委員我的36案我把它撤案我沒有意見"},{"start":6668.237,"end":6675.523,"text":"知議委員是不是要多找他們去開會有些知議委員都跟我說他們沒什麼"},{"start":6686.992,"end":6712.769,"text":"沒什麼參與感是,就是如果就全縣來講是有一些跟以前的會委的權益不一樣但是他們對地方是熟悉的啊對,所以他們就提出建議但是有些會議可以找你們為什麼不定期召集會議把名定一下有有有,我們有定期沒有啊,那你就見面我們是規定就是每半年至少開一次那必要的時候可以再加開會議"},{"start":6715.771,"end":6734.418,"text":"這就是每半年、六年加開一個定期會,三個月加開一個臨時會,大概就是這樣子的概念,起碼他們三個月能開一遍會,他們也覺得做到做得成就感,其實執行會委員就是一個建議,讓他們有建議,這樣可以聽,這樣可以表彰,這樣都沒有,"},{"start":6747.944,"end":6757.569,"text":"謝謝委員的建議,我想我們會去做調整,因為執行委員其實他對地方很熟悉,然後多聽他們的意見,去做一些建設或管理的這些,我想應該很有幫助"},{"start":6758.249,"end":6780.834,"text":"對嘛,你可以分一下嘛,譬如你署長可以北中南,你當時要去一邊,大概就是把它分一下,那其他部分就是他們處長開,但是你還是要親自,人家可以看得到你,看得到你,我們在做這個,朱新偉我們才有那個計單,好不好?能夠直接跟你反映,好不好?"},{"start":6782.035,"end":6803.249,"text":"我覺得今天我們幾個委員都有這樣的認識其實我會提案就是說沒有開會然後諮詢委員的費用又增加那到底要增加什麼所以剛剛署長雖然說因為是疫情所以降下來那現在是恢復了那我同意我才會測案但是也確實就是說參與感很重要那這樣我們幾個委員都認為是定期之後還有臨時會加深大家的參與感就這樣定了就是這麼定了嘛"},{"start":6810.633,"end":6810.773,"text":"副副長"},{"start":6834.898,"end":6843.583,"text":"那就處理就是32案徹案嘛齁那其餘就是預算照列好那接下來處理34到37案來請部長說明"},{"start":6846.976,"end":6864.647,"text":"三十四案到三十七案,三十四案的最主要是一個履用費那履用費的部分就是因為農田水利署有17個分支單位他本身來來往往在互動的部分這個部分會增加那另外一個部分是其實農田水利署在國際上面其實我們的農業水利社"},{"start":6865.387,"end":6886.024,"text":"的一個建設是在全世界特別在亞洲地區是非常有名的所以我們也透過很多的這些互動能夠跟他們有一些互動那他是跟山鼠本身的公關衛道的本身是有一部分的連結所以我們希望說透過這樣子的一個整個的一個國內的水利小組還有水利班的這些互動來做一個處理"},{"start":6887.981,"end":6890.924,"text":"我36案那個退展會是退展什麼業務?"},{"start":6904.639,"end":6923.667,"text":"是跟委員報告因為我們全國有3495個水利小組那水利小組事實上他們也都要定期開會那我們要跟他們這個推展他們就是說有關節水還有我們那個灌溉配水等等的這個事項所以這些都是用在還有這個在抗旱的時候那大家要怎麼樣來齊心協力度過這個旱災這個名詞叫推展"},{"start":6928.249,"end":6951.528,"text":"是是是因為我們這個對我們就是業務的一個推展因為他們並不是我們的職員看起來我們這個名稱好像比較怪怪的推展會那如果說你說推展會增加那業務收入當然也要增加阿為什麼我們會用沒有增加那是會計科目啦但是你們沒有增加阿不是嗎你們的業務會用業務收入沒有增加"},{"start":6953.21,"end":6976.51,"text":"這個推展會這個名詞就怪怪的其實這個公務預算還有所謂推展推展A5跟委員報告因為就是說因為水利效率差比較特別因為當初改制那他們不可能會是我們的職員但是他又是我們很重要的一個協力的一個助手那我們在所有的預算科目裡面就只能夠找到這一個名詞叫推展會"},{"start":6977.931,"end":6997.962,"text":"所以我就覺得這個推展會很奇怪我們農水署有一個推展會如果說要推展業務如果要增加輸出當然業務收入就要增加啊你們有沒有增加我就覺得很奇怪沒有錯吧這個主席呢你要能不能說明一下"},{"start":7000.403,"end":7024.532,"text":"報告這個這個推展費以前是交行銷廣告那後來因為今年度那個預算科目修正改成那個推展費那主要是要跟那個原來那個媒體政策你有沒有覺得這樣怪怪的這樣改這樣名字好嗎這公務機關還講推展費因為這個是配合主席總署的那個科目定義的因為所有基金都是一致編列的"},{"start":7028.16,"end":7030.764,"text":"這種說明我是不接受的,但是我也沒辦法,你是主席統促"},{"start":7036.319,"end":7060.437,"text":"我的第35案我就同意改組決議但是我還是想要請問一下部長跟署長其實旅運費的部分從預算跟決算來看其實幾乎是袋子用的一半而已事實上旅運費從整個基金的部分其實短處的部分大概都從包括將近20億甚至前兩年有到36億以上"},{"start":7061.998,"end":7075.954,"text":"預估明年度大概也會到27億左右 其實還是要努力的遵截他的支出那李昕飛如果你的決算其實並不會這麼多 看起來只會用一半而已的話那是不是考慮就佐與三屆 也讓這個人民的感受會更好一點"},{"start":7077.255,"end":7099.386,"text":"來部長跟署長跟委員報告那這個問題是一樣的因為我們的那個旅運費事實上都很尊潔在支出那當時在之所以111億年的時候那個決算數會少也是因為疫情的關係那因為當時這個防疫的指引一下下來所以整個都有一點停下來但是後來發覺這個業務這樣推動會有受到影響特別是我們現在做擴大灌溉服務的"},{"start":7100.807,"end":7128.568,"text":"我們非灌區的地方都做他們都比較偏遠所以這個旅運費對同仁來講是非常非常的重要那再跟委員報告有關委員關心這個短促的事情過去在水利會時期每年大概要短促50幾億那我們改制之後馬上就降到49億那麼在110年降到這個36億那麼在我們明年我們有把握可以再降到27億所以我們事實上是做了非常非常多的努力那也希望委員能夠支持"},{"start":7128.888,"end":7134.718,"text":"好的了解那就請還是尊傑來使用了好不好請尊傑來使用不管是整個那個那我就改組決議好"},{"start":7137.984,"end":7163.411,"text":"主席要問一件事因為講這個推展費我想問一下就是說現在你們那個農田水利過去都是叫做江水缸現在江水缸好像漸漸少了你們都是委外然後讓他們再統一去找人來做這個部分是這樣所以你們未來的政策是都要把這個江水缸把它變成委外的"},{"start":7165.391,"end":7182.457,"text":"沒有沒有我們這個就是我們的漲水工那我們現在是把它定義為叫做協情人員那他會比較像是像我們的那個義交一樣就像那個交通警察搭配義交的這個做法一樣那一樣都是直接我們聘除非我們除非我們當地找不到人"},{"start":7183.357,"end":7209.062,"text":"所以你們還說要保持他們嗎?是是是因為他們是要幫你們顧水門啊是是是事實上所以地方的服務員要顧水、顧水門是是是他們比較熟嘛是是是對啊是,而且我們還有幫他們保護所以你們就是找不到人的情況之下才會叫委外對對對因為委外來畢竟有時候人也難找你知道嗎?是是是在地臨時有一些狀況的時候會找不到人對對對所以"},{"start":7210.742,"end":7222.412,"text":"縱使而委外吼,你們可能還是要跟地方的小組長,要跟他說,這個委外的人要怎麼,你是有狀況要叫人的順便叫人。是是是,是是,好,好,好,謝謝文職董。"},{"start":7224.369,"end":7237.005,"text":"那我們現在就是三四到三七就是三五改組決議那其餘是預算照列好那我們再來處理38到40案好請部長說明"},{"start":7241.891,"end":7266.839,"text":"38到43最主要就是一個我們一般建築跟設備那最主要就是有關於我們的農水路的建設是最主要就是用在用在相關的經費那這邊的經費有委員提到說這個經費有增加那最主要就是因為我們因為不夠所以我們那時候還特別在那個12特別預算去請證就是說去增加相關的預算可以增加到140億"},{"start":7269.259,"end":7295.753,"text":"今年度我們執行了70億那個效果非常好就是說有太多農水路可以比較快速的修正那明年也有48億的這個E2特別預算來預注在這個建設經費裡面所以我們期待就是說明年的整個農水路能夠更加速的去能夠處理特別是在有一些灌區外的也好或是灌區內必須要去增加渠道的部分我們都會用這樣的一個經費盡可能去努力"},{"start":7296.833,"end":7318.408,"text":"所以希望說能夠照原列數來編列陳明和議員今年的增益排水預算你們有沒有增加有70億我們的預後總共是141億然後今年度執行的是70億部長、署長其實增益排水這個部分其實你們要把它平定"},{"start":7319.96,"end":7335.473,"text":"各縣市哪一條叫爭議排水我們就是編列預算要把它做不要再讓你現在還是有很多條的爭議排水現在還是在踢皮球嘛到底這條是什麼要做不知道嘛"},{"start":7336.414,"end":7352.493,"text":"所以我是覺得不要讓不要讓我們民意代表一條一條的向你爭取建議我是覺得已經這些爭議排水所謂爭議排水就是長期以來水利會的時代到底是水利事要做還是管制會要做還是水利會要做"},{"start":7354.45,"end":7383.286,"text":"一直沒有辦法清除的一個責任定位所以現在既然我們是公務機關這已經我們如果要說的都幾十年了很多東西都已經荒廢了所以我是覺得我們就去清查一下就是這樣子把它做這樣可以嗎?所以今天我們是不是可以做一個主決議就是爭議排水希望由農水署"},{"start":7383.946,"end":7400.52,"text":"能夠全面清查那10年編的預算把它完成,這樣可以嗎?可以那是不是這個我們今天也是請我們農會事務委員簡單來寫一下那還是朝你一下還有這個就算是39案這個部分"},{"start":7403.584,"end":7407.49,"text":"你們113年是．今年是編列95億吧．比去年增加40億 你們有這個主席的能力嗎"},{"start":7414.815,"end":7434.332,"text":"有有有有為什麼報告委員齁因為我們實際上我們17個管理處啊都有非常優秀的工程人員而且我們在地方上在協調用地各方面事實上效率非常高我們都是自己測量設計的所以只要同仁願意部長你們的基金114年到111年的結算結議都超過10億喔蛤"},{"start":7440.317,"end":7454.565,"text":"跟委員報告這個是佔你們的預算數的兩成以上喔所以我告訴你 你說你今年平均年你減到40年的年齡 這個執行能力這個是我存你的喔"},{"start":7456.697,"end":7469.545,"text":"跟委員報告事實上我們在今年事實上特別預算今年就開始執行了一共有70億我們到目前為止幾乎都有是好但是這個執行利益是我們以後是要跟你算帳的感謝你提醒好謝謝"},{"start":7479.45,"end":7490.259,"text":"那這樣的話就是剛剛陳明文委員說的主結議就慢慢寫一下好不好那其餘預算照列好那我們來處理這個41案"},{"start":7493.959,"end":7511.074,"text":"事前遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵"},{"start":7512.479,"end":7534.829,"text":"一修正後通過43案遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理"},{"start":7536.69,"end":7557.139,"text":"改善計劃部分工程尚未辦理顧驗計價作業,這個把它劃掉那其他的有跟廖委員有跟廖委員還有最後倒數第二行其預算執行的可能性令人質疑也劃掉我們有請廖委員也同意這樣"},{"start":7558.559,"end":7578.044,"text":"依修正確通過46遵照辦理遭案通過47遵照辦理遭案通過48遵照辦理遭案通過49遵照辦理遭案通過50遵照辦理遭案通過51遵照辦理遭案通過52遵照辦理遭案通過53遵照辦理好555555"},{"start":7581.424,"end":7582.666,"text":"新增29支議案主決議為因應114"},{"start":7602.233,"end":7625.74,"text":"明年臺紐經濟合作協定生效後．對國內糯農產業之影響．原建請農業部競速與衛福部．就先入國家標準之定義．進一步協商以有效區隔進口乳品之標示．確保國內糯農產業發展．委員陳明文等提案好,那就召喚同夥曾益白嘴那一條有,謝謝"},{"start":7629.79,"end":7636.899,"text":"好那這個就是正義排水這個等下處理好那這個二九之一照案通過好"},{"start":7637.998,"end":7664.419,"text":"那我們現在來處理這個農業特別收入基金那首先是五十四案五十四案來請通五十四通案五十四案的部分就是委員建議減列一百萬那基本上委員所關切的是相關的這些基金的這些用途包括他的一些國庫撥補的部分那整個基金在"},{"start":7665.66,"end":7692.446,"text":"在明年度的話公務預算這邊撥補大概371億來由公務預算來撥補的所以我們一定會照這樣的一個基金的用途去努力的去達成我們要做的包括整個農民福利的部分包括貸款那個貸款的部分青年農民貸款的部分還有一些基礎建設的部分我們都是用基金的部分去處理然後也建議說能夠維持原列數"},{"start":7694.704,"end":7723.001,"text":"好沒有意見不過這54是通案齁所以我們先好預算照列好預算照列好沒意見好那55案是那我先問一下啦好不好好55好部長、市長我們每年農民每年都繳公糧齁除了作為這個安全的慈悲以外同時也是提供給政府做調度使用嘛對那你們收到公糧以後你們大概都是怎麼銷售"},{"start":7724.232,"end":7742.157,"text":"我們分成好幾種第一個是在國內國內的話比如說在營養午餐或者是軍隊還有這些加工業者那加工業者本來是做食品的那後來像去年、今年的話就做飼料或者是做酒那另外還有外銷以及每一年大概2萬公里外銷今年15萬15萬噸這樣幾%"},{"start":7748.092,"end":7762.749,"text":"我們一年差不多六十到七十萬噸的工糧的處理所以十五萬噸的話大概占四分之一四分之二十五趴二十五趴二十五趴,那你介紹的時候多少?平均?"},{"start":7765.032,"end":7773.702,"text":"外銷?外銷因為這都股票啦,都股票,看能不能買到的喔,大概差不多,外銷差不多15、60元啦,15、70元。說得那麼好,15、60元嗎?不是90元、60元而已嗎?沒有啦,那是持留費啦。持留費多少?"},{"start":7781.391,"end":7793.944,"text":"市長你跟我們進口的五條的介紹,我們進口來到高雄港還是吉蘭港的這個介紹,照那個介紹,就是當天,那是日白的時候,到我們表的時候,就照那個介紹,現在是十一口三啦。"},{"start":7799.87,"end":7808.692,"text":"現在是11.3元11.3元是叫什麼的介紹叫玉米那個米有叫玉米的介紹嗎對現在我們的企業米我們的公牛當作企業米賣的是叫我們進口進到我們的碼頭的玉米的價格所以現在玉米就是11.3元所以但是過去玉米如果是6元你也不會6元的意思嗎"},{"start":7824.935,"end":7837.48,"text":"不是,六塊的時候我們會補到九塊,一公斤會補到九塊所以是由於六塊、七塊、八塊是同期的喔是,我們會補所以你現在說由於十一塊九、十一塊三,所以你現在說不是十一塊三,你就沒有補的意思嗎?就超過九塊就沒有補,因為全部都是給農民的"},{"start":7846.883,"end":7856.749,"text":"你這個治療費是你買進來還是要補給誰?不是啦,剛才說的這個治療費是不會給治療請的你不會給治療請的就是不會給治療請的嗎?對,對,對所以是不會照供你介紹不會給治療請?對,對,對所以如果不會到11塊,不會到9塊,你是補給什麼人?"},{"start":7871.328,"end":7891.473,"text":"市長的介紹方法就是要政府買公民的介紹,就是用郵遞的介紹買我這樣聽不聽得懂?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?市長,你聽得懂嗎?"},{"start":7898.537,"end":7909.312,"text":"所以我們用高科技介紹去賣我們的飼料米啦就是讓我們的國內的玉米也有它的支撐啦所以你是補助飼料清的喔"},{"start":7911.071,"end":7929.598,"text":"這跟補助都無關的,就是說我們的治療費買出去的時候,我們的參考的價格有兩個,如果說國外的價格高於9塊有沒有,我們就叫國外的價格去買,國外的價格如果低於9塊錢,我們就製造用9塊去買,因為我們國內收的藥品都製造9塊啦,用這個觀念。這樣我問一下,那些出生,要不要自己買?"},{"start":7939.056,"end":7943.861,"text":"委員 現在 委員 現在要是九塊 他們淨靠六塊沒有啦 過去 過去啦 我說過去的狀況 他們標的差異就是政府要出 政府要出 農民要補得高 那時候是這樣"},{"start":7951.294,"end":7957.3,"text":"我現在講的就是公糧欸我現在意思說你現在收起來變公糧你有賣給外銷民、你有塑料民、你有給一些金鐘的金融"},{"start":7969.974,"end":7974.257,"text":"委員報告啦,因為那個米吼,我們會燉三年啦,就是先久放到三年,那久的米的價格會比較高啦"},{"start":7995.769,"end":7996.35,"text":"過去我們長期當然農民"},{"start":8024.683,"end":8035.531,"text":"可能也有所謂稻米生產過剩所以大家都依靠要把米交給農工糧不管是計劃收購、輔導收購、醫療收購大家都很高但是看起來這一兩年四選三以後"},{"start":8040.754,"end":8055.14,"text":"那看起來我們的產量前提所以現在的介紹算不錯嘛是上秋現在的薪已經高了多少啊?12.6元對沒錯嘛所以現在就沒有人要如果高12.6元他就要告你公認就不會了對"},{"start":8058.021,"end":8083.052,"text":"那我今天在問你的意思就是這樣子就是過去的公糧你這樣子算起來跟現在這一兩年的公糧的數量現在算起來你是不是能夠把一些資料給我比較清楚的我要了解說在你4選3之前你所收受的這些公糧你這樣到底一年政府這樣賣出去的再收起來賣出去你之後多少"},{"start":8084.732,"end":8085.093,"text":"主席"},{"start":8100.906,"end":8116.397,"text":"沒了解,那你要告訴我說,如果說是收工糧,這些米,你這樣賣出去之後,這樣料多少,和你現在用4選3補足的,那這樣子一個成本起來,那我們也就了解到,到底這個政策是不是正確的"},{"start":8117.578,"end":8138.943,"text":"事前這個政策是不是正確的這個是值不值得我們立法院跟你繼續支持繼續鼓勵農民要這樣做的這樣站在政府也好站在農民也好站在我們的一半社會也好基本上我們都能夠達到一個我們意義的目標當然這個還是牽涉到工糧的收購價錢"},{"start":8145.16,"end":8167.668,"text":"現在農民就在說就是說還是希望我們農業部這一邊能夠提升公糧的收購價錢那因為現在的收糧公糧收購價錢你說現在這樣有夠嗎?事實上大家都知道每次我在政府主席的時候特別點每次一分地都成分都差300塊以上你要做嗎?署長"},{"start":8170.109,"end":8177.699,"text":"所謂省份啦,一分錢好三四百塊啦你肥料去營,你所有的一些經濟的一些省份,我們都省到"},{"start":8181.618,"end":8201.398,"text":"那我們公糧的這個收購架構．如果那天再計算．如果拿出去做2棵．這樣就付了成本了．去3棵是農民有感受了．當然就去5棵6棵．後面公糧收不到．市民都收不到米．這裡農商收不到米．"},{"start":8204.744,"end":8219.269,"text":"消費者也應用到,因為有的土土要進口,外國幣,日本人也買了混合米,事情又會發生了當然我們也不希望市場,我們年輕人想沒錢啦,所以我是覺得這個"},{"start":8222.1,"end":8235.665,"text":"糧食政策這個這個齁這個我們應該要好好的去討論一下所以我剛剛所講的這些資料是不是能夠完整的一份給我們可以嗎?我可以報告嗎?我可以報告嗎?我可以報告嗎?我可以報告嗎?我可以報告嗎?我可以報告嗎?我可以報告嗎?我可以報告嗎?我可以報告嗎?我可以報告嗎?"},{"start":8250.45,"end":8275.676,"text":"完全舊的變成飼料的事實上在有時候一年的或者是有一些履歷的我們就可以釋出那讓他的一個滾動的部分能夠可以增加那這個部分我想會後我想我們盡可能的一個禮拜之內提供給委員那另外第二個部分就是整個的一個稻米的這些公糧的這些政策跟包括價格的政策上次在委員會的時候我也承諾說我們會去去研議整個系統因為"},{"start":8276.576,"end":8286.997,"text":"不只是最主要是讓我們的稻農有穩定的收入這是我們共同的目標那用什麼樣的手段是能夠最有效而且最持續的達成這個我們就會做評估然後做專案報告"},{"start":8289.664,"end":8313.025,"text":"是不是我建議部長就是我們的糧食政策包括稻米的這個政策還有公糧這個都相互聯動的是不是有一個比較完整的一個報告然後給委員們每一個人都給好不好我覺得這個問題其實而且隨著時間的不斷的這個而且有些政策上在調整的時候其實我覺得可以有一些更精進的一些做法謝謝委員我想我們會這個大概多久可以完成"},{"start":8314.706,"end":8339.173,"text":"兩天、三天我們就可以...不是啊那個陳委員的那些相關的資料數據的資料先給我們啦但是後續的一些政策上的經濟...我想我們要你這些資料也就是事事可以說話拜我們要怎麼改變說4.3這個政策是對的我想這個才是有一個依據啦沒有改變不一定農民完全支持你4.3喔這點你也要清楚喔好不好"},{"start":8344.735,"end":8361.489,"text":"謝謝委員提醒還有就是公糧的收購價格你們年底看看之前能不能做一個討論好不好我是覺得公糧收購的價錢提高了兩三塊其實符合現在的一個成本所以我覺得這也是要速度跟農民做一個回應好不好"},{"start":8365.612,"end":8367.132,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":8386.978,"end":8411.213,"text":"這個重道會很多會暴增這個要提早面對我們現在正在做整個的那個這個大區輪作的一個檢討然後相對也會因應怎麼樣用更大的力道去讓他們去轉做包括高鐵沿線1.5公里擴增成3公里這個部分我們都在做一些研議你已經水道一定會重很多一定會重很多好"},{"start":8412.293,"end":8432.621,"text":"那這個五十五案呢?我們可以建議免於增列啦免於增列對這個陳委員這個五十五案加就免於增列好增列是什麼意思?這是照預算照列你就認為增列對你們會有阻礙人權嗎?"},{"start":8435.662,"end":8440.567,"text":"因為去年是56.6億,我們現在每年變56.9億,減到三千萬,現在這樣一年好,我懂,謝謝,我了解好,那就預算照列接下來處理這個56到58案,請部長說明"},{"start":8454.861,"end":8484.088,"text":"因為這個是公糧收購的預算啦這個公糧收購關係希望說我們委員是不是可以每年凍結或者是刪減因為各位知道明年一定會很多農民種那你這樣一刪減或者是凍結的話那明年一起我們就要輸給別人啦這個一收購進來的話所以這個如果一凍結的話到時候經費不夠的話事實上這樣的話可能會這個農民會有很多的怨言啦所以我們是不是希望說是不是就按照編列的數量的金額來造列"},{"start":8491.584,"end":8492.287,"text":"那我58案我改組決議"},{"start":8499.421,"end":8502.725,"text":"五十六跟五十八案改組決議,其餘預算照列"},{"start":8522.745,"end":8543.515,"text":"來再來59到62案社群委員這個59到62案這個是我們化學肥料還有有機質肥料的相關的資材的補貼因為各位知道在去年開始就是烏鱷戰爭所以為了我們要讓農民的這個肥料的成本不增加所以我們就讓他動漲"},{"start":8544.736,"end":8559.83,"text":"所以我們去年補助了18.9億那今年補助的到目前是補助了19億那我們會按照烏鶴戰爭或者是整個世界回料的價格如果說趨緩之後我們就會把它停掉那另外一方面就是有機質回料因為我們已經從10年前啊"},{"start":8561.852,"end":8576.9,"text":"每一年施用化學肥料100公噸已經降為80萬公噸那另外20萬公噸我們是用有機質肥料來補貼所以這一筆經費是化學肥料跟有機質肥料兩方面的這個肥料的對於農民的補貼讓他能夠降低成本以上好主席"},{"start":8581.566,"end":8593.944,"text":"國內的肥料上漲當然這是建金的關係但是建金聽起來、看起來我們有接近尾聲為什麼國內的肥料還沒有下跌?就是為什麼?"},{"start":8596.212,"end":8618.52,"text":"國內的肥料從去年開始漲的時候其實我們就動漲了就是由臺肥最主要臺肥會吸收一半的上漲的價格然後由我們農業部吸收一半的價格所以現在當它下降的時候只是我們政府補貼的有沒有就是吸收我講的是根本性問題就是肥料照供應該入來嘛對"},{"start":8621.401,"end":8627.269,"text":"國內的肥料價格都沒有下來這是什麼原因?肥料商有在拉抬價格有沒有?市長有沒有?你認為呢?有沒有?是"},{"start":8638.023,"end":8658.498,"text":"當然我要說的是,我也是支持農業部編列預算去平衡我們的肥料價格嘛,所以我沒有反對嘛但是問題就是說,為什麼應該要落來,不落來甚至你們現在把所有的預算都編列去補助什麼人,肥料商嘛對不對"},{"start":8659.258,"end":8674.128,"text":"不是這樣,我跟委員報告一下,肥料是這樣,我們台灣沒有辦法去生產那些肥料,那些都是酒油在提煉的,所以大概我們都會三個月半年前就要浸那些原料進來,那再來台灣製作,所以它會有時間上的落差"},{"start":8675.41,"end":8677.512,"text":"農民本來要增加但是我們不可以回到公司"},{"start":8691.829,"end":8692.91,"text":"我今天說肥料商故意在那裡"},{"start":8718.264,"end":8745.787,"text":"拉抬這個肥料的價錢你就不下來應該照說起來如果我們來判斷是市場的經驗判斷應該現在是要下來啊肥料要下來啊想到肥料價錢還沒有下跌還是在上漲中是不是有肥料商在豐台這個還是在拉抬這個價錢反正政府還是要補貼我們的肥料商所以我是在華語這一點我只是提醒你啦我沒有政績啦"},{"start":8746.588,"end":8752.873,"text":"台灣85%的肥料是由台肥進來的我們在去年開始吸收價差的時候就會幾乎每一天在監控它的肥料的進口價"},{"start":8774.651,"end":8799.991,"text":"然後那個價格是固定在那邊的他的差額就是臺肥吸收一半我們吸收一半那現在開始漏氣的時候我們的吸收你是信用臺肥啦我知道啦你意思是說我們是公股董事會在那邊監控但是我告訴你現在坦白說現在肥料就是去這套配錢是要用完啦我是覺得說你是可以用其他的手段去平衡平衡肥料的價錢我們現在的肥料都動漲喔沒有"},{"start":8803.854,"end":8819.327,"text":"現場是後面的事實上那個肥料是起起就不下來過了現在就落到那時候的監控到原來的那個點當它下來到原來的那個我們的價差點的話就會降了一般肥料之前有什麼介紹"},{"start":8831.107,"end":8837.431,"text":"現在看你的淡寧甲的部分現在航運都下降了,淡寧甲不是為政經的國家過來的"},{"start":8852.161,"end":8871.129,"text":"現在就是說我們的價差的吸收越來越小啦,等我們不吸收價差再往下跌的時候,肥料就可以回到平穩的價格,大概是這樣子。現在是價差在撐著嘛,所以價差越來越少的時候,少到某個程度的時候就回到我們當初監控的基準點,啊等到很漏氣,肥料價格就會往下降了。"},{"start":8874.091,"end":8896.524,"text":"這個我想我們一定會讓我們的農民好像這幾年我沒有聽過肥料往下降的沒有因為現在的我們的那個那個價差補貼一直維持在那邊等於說它降的時候還是在價差的吸收範圍之內當然啦當然啦可是問題是它不可能永遠都一直在高漲所以我想我們會隨時監控當它的價格已經降到該"},{"start":8897.825,"end":8922.699,"text":"那臺肥有可能會主動調降肥料價格嗎?如果調到了監控以下,他們會這樣做嗎?我們一定會要求,因為臺肥過往一直蠻配合我們的政策,包括肥料的這些政策,我想他們都很配合。那相對的我們的公股董事也會在那邊,當你監控價格達到某一個程度的時候,該反映到肥料價格反映給農民的時候,我們一定會去要求。那邱委員?"},{"start":8928.21,"end":8951.819,"text":"我請教一下剛剛那個署長您談到那個有機質跟化肥的補助那個比例大概是多少是一半一半嗎還是是化肥比較少還是化肥比較多照理講我們現在應該是比較鼓勵用有機質有機質的話我們如果是一般的慣性農化的每一公斤是補助兩塊錢然後一公斤是十萬"},{"start":8952.819,"end":8958.603,"text":"現在的農民大概普遍年紀都偏大所以你們過去的肥料一包都是40公斤降下來的已經變成20公斤"},{"start":8980.579,"end":8997.668,"text":"是說臺北領域你如果分做小包裝,那個成本又比較高,不太會合,那這個部分你們怎麼處理?但你有沒有把它,有幾種規格嘛,比如說你可以有5公斤的、10公斤的,你要考量到現在的農民,到底40公斤是否還沒走?"},{"start":9001.03,"end":9024.58,"text":"您現在有要求把它分作對一種包裝?有25個,都有。是。25喔?25也是很重的。我向委員報告,委員地面質詢講到就是說,原來的肥料40公斤比較重嘛。那現在已經,在去年其實我們已經反映過,它有變成20、25的。但是20公斤有時候還是很重。然後我們也跟臺灣有反映,但是這個牽涉到後面的生產線的調整啦。"},{"start":9026.081,"end":9044.926,"text":"所以我們已經有反映給台肥了然後看看說哪一些我們也收集哪一些肥料是比較需要小量化的部分就是公斤數變少的部分然後他那個生產線要做包裝線要做一個調整那如果說調整出來的時候有任何的一個進一步訊息我想我們跟委員回應"},{"start":9046.459,"end":9046.679,"text":"現在40公斤"},{"start":9067.709,"end":9088.556,"text":"農民也不知道工啊,但是你的範圍也不一定有這麼多啊,那你讓那個量,包裝的量體把它變小,相對來講價格也可以稍微降低點,你只是生產線稍微改一下而已嘛。沒有,這個部分就牽涉到兩個,一個是複合肥料的部分,我們盡量會朝委員的意見,因為複合肥料,"},{"start":9088.956,"end":9089.836,"text":"來,我看這輩的,欸,內內農委員,好,OK,好,那"},{"start":9109.468,"end":9125.198,"text":"那我處理啦齁那這個為了我看問題是很多啦齁因為這個涉及到農民齁他們的一些他們的用肥的一些如何讓他們比較可以便利去使用或者是穩定價格齁我看這個59到62我們就凍結1000萬好不好"},{"start":9130.42,"end":9142.153,"text":"凍結一千萬然後來做書面報告再解凍怎麼精進整個肥料的一個就是凍結一千萬然後提書面報告不解凍這樣好不好好來再來處理63到69案"},{"start":9148.782,"end":9168.698,"text":"來請部長說明報告各位因為最近這幾年的這個氣候異常那氣候異常的關係啊所以導致有一些如果說因為天氣的關係增產或者是產量不夠或者是因為在中國的政治因素的干擾所以量變成在外銷上受到受阻"},{"start":9169.258,"end":9189.511,"text":"所以這個我們用三之間包括內銷、加工還有外銷以這種方式來協助農民來幫忙農民維持他的價格在一定的水準之上所以這個產銷調節計畫這幾年來因為人為的因素就是兩岸的問題或者是天然就是不可抗力因為有時候乾旱"},{"start":9190.791,"end":9192.912,"text":"部長、署長,我請教一下,今年覺得價格不錯,應該有產銷調節嗎?"},{"start":9216.109,"end":9216.83,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":9235.379,"end":9237.643,"text":"我當然非常支持農業部的產銷調節這個計畫因為這樣可以改革短期的產銷的問題但是水果、蔬菜這些品項每年都要辦理這種產銷調節"},{"start":9251.102,"end":9253.865,"text":"農業部沒有速度地去協調農民來規劃下一年部的水股、蔬菜種子面積、計畫產量"},{"start":9272.724,"end":9287.417,"text":"農業其實就是一個計劃性的一個經濟其實你要剩下的水果其實是應該你們今年就要規劃夏年度啊明年啊對不對你們當然產銷調節是產銷過剩你再做調節那你事實上我們也要做規劃你們到底有沒有在做這方面的規劃"},{"start":9295.584,"end":9317.058,"text":"就是像冬季的這些國品包括橄欖還有柳丁還有一些棗子那另外這些棗子的部分蓮霧的部分其實我們上應該上個禮拜我們內部才開相關的整個產交調節的會議包括它的產量預測的部分所以委員所關心的就是說我們一方面是比較長期的就是說當這個品項持續都會生產過量的時候"},{"start":9320.72,"end":9343.658,"text":"那我們有很多就是讓他轉做的這些政策誘因讓他轉到其他的作務但是更重要產價調節會發生在因為氣候的異常像今年的感冒今年因為季節比較好或是因為他的總產量落外因為氣候的一些異常的部分然後前一陣子因為颱風的關係所以在當他已經達到某一個價格水準的時候"},{"start":9344.538,"end":9363.954,"text":"不會進場去做相關的這些產銷調節的這些基金沒有啦我只是提醒農業部而已啦我是說當然產銷調節這個計畫我同意啦但是我們還是希望農業部都要投訴的去規劃每一年度的一個水果、蔬菜的一個產量啦我是覺得是這樣"},{"start":9364.995,"end":9369.861,"text":"不要讓農民自生自滅啦我想這個是農業部應該要做的應該要更積極的去處理規劃我們這個農產品"},{"start":9379.974,"end":9381.395,"text":"我們其實還有很多努力的空間,我們會再精進"},{"start":9403.922,"end":9429.793,"text":"我也是建議那個產銷調節是在比較後端那前面如果有好的一些輔導跟規劃那其實可以減少那像前陣子大家就很緊張瓜地菜超重的問題嘛所以我的意思是說有時候是一些天然氣候變化或一些不可測的因素那當然我們政府就要大力但如果前面的部分整個規劃比較完善的話所以我是建議就是有這樣的規劃的時候應該有比較具體一些資料也提供給給我們了解啦至少大家知道說"},{"start":9430.413,"end":9455.51,"text":"在這件事情上政府做了哪些的努力不要每年同樣的事情明知道會發生然後不斷的再重複再發生好像政府在這件事情上的能夠處理的力道也很有限好 謝謝委員我想我們每一年的年底會有一個下一年度的整個柏品的這些生產預測跟它的一個調整調整的一個相關的資訊我們再把這個這個是不是也給經濟委員會我們再給經濟委員這樣然後我們趁這個機會包括你們的努力的一個成果包括你們預期的整個狀況好不好"},{"start":9460.393,"end":9467.756,"text":"我們剛剛同意的意見都很寶貴那產銷調節的計畫其實也是我們農委會裡面相當重要的一環其實農民的農產品介紹都不太好"},{"start":9481.96,"end":9506.603,"text":"我們都希望農產品的介紹比較好但是經常會在農民的權益跟消費者之間很難達到一個平衡所以有時候那個價格的過度的波動經常會引起很多不必要的或者是消費者的不必要的批評這個對於很多農民其實是不太公平的"},{"start":9509.357,"end":9530.929,"text":"我比較希望的是說我們還是要在經常性的讓我們的農民的農產品有一定的收益然後農產品的價格也能夠維持一定的利潤讓農民或者我們青年的農民願意返鄉去務農這個是很重要的"},{"start":9532.71,"end":9539.539,"text":"那產業調節的部分除非他真的是價格波動到一定的程度就是說消費者覺得這個已經超過一天都沒說起來這是人"},{"start":9545.083,"end":9548.906,"text":"農產品的價格是在我的感覺但是你們也都會給我消費價所以我覺得這個產銷調節的部分其實我覺得你們應該要真正的把農產品怎麼樣"},{"start":9569.105,"end":9585.127,"text":"見過在一個很合,就像我們現在的兩鏈的這一些計畫,基本上都希望說農產品能穩定的供給,然後穩定的價格,然後讓我們的消費者大致上也不會有太多負面的批評,最重要的,我不希望"},{"start":9585.808,"end":9605.377,"text":"我們的農民被汙名化了,如果介紹什麼比較好就沒農民了,這太管了,我覺得這不太公平。第一,中間的剝削我們要盡量減少,不要說我們這些價格的波動,結果最後農民沒有得到收益,反而是中間的中間商,他們囤積"},{"start":9608.078,"end":9625.712,"text":"居齊啦,還是說在這像淡的部分有一些是操作的嘛,有些東西是操作來造成價格的不穩定或價格的不合理,結果農民都在打坐,這我覺得這是很不應該,所以錢是比較少數啦,我不會去管你們錢的事情,但是要對我們的農民比較好,對我們的農民要比較照顧,對農產品的介紹要顧好事,這比較重要。"},{"start":9634.559,"end":9662.058,"text":"謝謝委員我也非常認同委員其實農民的職業是需要被尊重的那農產品的價格整體來看其實相對於國外我們農產品的價格其實還有一些合理的空間因為它的價格的確部分的時候太低了那第三個部分要回應的就是其實我們產價條約是在價格波動比較劇烈的時候我們才會進去裡面去做一些誘因的設計跟推廣這是部分"},{"start":9664.119,"end":9692.793,"text":"特別是我們剛才委員所提到中間剝削的部分我們現在已經拉了非常多的由產地直接跟我們的超市賣場直接的連接就不會去透過一些運商但是一個非常重要的我們也在宣導農民就是將我們的國品做分期因為有一些格外品都進到批發市場的時候當然會把整個價格會拉低所以我們也會針對這個部分繼續努力那各位委員還有其他意見嗎"},{"start":9694.95,"end":9695.21,"text":"接下來處理70-77案"},{"start":9710.298,"end":9724.372,"text":"70到77案都是跟我們的農業保險有關的就是我們現在已經開發了非常多的作物種類跟他的保單那相對的沒有錯我們很多保單可能還有一些改進的空間因為"},{"start":9726.073,"end":9726.193,"text":"陳銘文委員"},{"start":9749.301,"end":9760.771,"text":"部長、署長,農業保險的覆蓋率現在到底多少?50厘,百分之50厘啊,你覺得這個數字你有沒有理由?我個人是"},{"start":9762.065,"end":9779.319,"text":"不是那麼滿意因為我如果我看這個資料的話我會把水稻的覆蓋率跟跟豬吧豬的覆蓋率拿掉那個那個才會因為你就把那個稻米的覆蓋率拿掉還有豬的覆蓋率拿掉剩下多少"},{"start":9781.201,"end":9785.385,"text":"從國外的這些保險的經驗他其實開始的上升是環部的因為他需要讓農民去了解農業保險的風險的這些精神"},{"start":9800.299,"end":9803.22,"text":"部長,我的意思是,農業保險是政府的德政,沒有錯吧?是"},{"start":9818.624,"end":9843.171,"text":"但是事實上我們到現在為止我們一直沒有辦法增加我們的覆蓋率甚至沒有辦法擴展我們的一個農業保險的品項所以我的意思是這個責任是歸誰是農民的交易不夠還是你們宣傳不夠就是說這是一個好的事情是我們一直做不出來對不對這是你政府的責任"},{"start":9844.552,"end":9863.932,"text":"對,我想我們會加強香港．對農業部的責任我可以說第一個保單的設計可能要有一些重新思考的模式就是說因為有些是商業型保單那商業型保單有的商業保險公司他就是以利益為前提所以設計的那個保單可能對農民來講也許覺得說"},{"start":9866.875,"end":9879.668,"text":"保費太高理賠的風險我今天沒有辦法跟你契談你的行政技術問題啦你怎麼不想說其實說但是地方民進黨代表立場上我就很清楚告訴你"},{"start":9880.854,"end":9902.791,"text":"你的這個保險覆蓋率是偏低的是你們是不積極你們政府是沒有積極作為的所以目前為止農業保險算是不成功的我這樣講你們同意嗎我覺得可能委員的表達可能也許有一些我覺得有一些我必要解釋的就是從一個場景來看農業的保險他覺得"},{"start":9904.833,"end":9905.974,"text":"你認為應該多少才是正常的?"},{"start":9928.968,"end":9939.764,"text":"我之前有跟內部討論喔至少應該有10%才是一個比較合理的現在比較偏低啦所以我們會去努力去處理這個部分"},{"start":9940.47,"end":9960.447,"text":"我們還是希望農業部能夠擴大辦理一些農業的保險的品項幫助更多的農民在農產品的部分不會受到天然災害的影響好不好 我想農業保險是一個政府的德政事實上是農業部應該積極去做的好不好這是我們的責任 謝謝"},{"start":9963.87,"end":9986.728,"text":"農業保險這個很重要但是到今年的8月底的時候開辦27個品項43張保單但14個保單覆蓋率第一%包括甚至有幾個保單是沒有人投保的而且在跟去年前年比的話27個品項裡面又有15個品項是覆蓋率是不升反降退步往下退的"},{"start":9987.568,"end":10015.547,"text":"甚至有幾個退伍包括爐魚、農業設施、石斑魚、虱目魚、吳過魚跟鯉6個品項覆蓋率減少超過3%所以顯然其實成效上面是讓大家擔憂的那我覺得恐怕部長還有很大努力的一個空間一個是好的政策但是為什麼這個推行出來的成效其實是有很大的一些那我是建議可能部長要再做一個徹底的一個思考要怎麼來處理"},{"start":10017.709,"end":10020.312,"text":"農民,因為我也經常在產業跟業者作談,其實他們看到如果前兩年沒理賠,他們都不想保了。"},{"start":10035.709,"end":10053.377,"text":"所以他們對於那種長期的風險概念我覺得這個是我們的責任我們要讓農民瞭解就是說保險其實是當你遇到風險真的遇到風險損失的時候才會有理賠而不是說用保險去得到額外的這些補助"},{"start":10056.178,"end":10072.738,"text":"那這個部分我想我們本身的宣導很重要第二個就是保單的設計本身我們未來會加強所謂的天災連結型的這個部分這個部分可以跟天然災救助可以做一個互補所以我想我們一定會很認真的去做一個檢討"},{"start":10074.57,"end":10096.231,"text":"建議能不能就是要一份的報告給我們好不好就是整個其實我覺得是有些需要做一些檢討不管是保單設計或者是加強宣導啦據實啦就是沒有人希望這個保險是用到的但是一旦需要的時候他可能就會有很大的一個效果啦很多人保了很多的保險也希望都不要用到但是他一旦需要的時候他就可以減輕你非常大的一個損失"},{"start":10097.412,"end":10116.731,"text":"所以我是說這個觀念宣導跟整個保安設計要不斷的去講話這樣才能達到這個農業保險這樣一個目的啦我希望能夠有一個報告給委員會這邊那我是建議凍結一千萬然後提書面報告再行解凍來翁崇峻委員我們就凍結一千萬然後提書面報告那個這樣子齁"},{"start":10123.818,"end":10141.153,"text":"我們那個理局長其實他在就是在我們金融的這些像保險或者是說他各方就是我們基層的一些待放的部分他其實蠻照顧農民的這個是我第一點我要肯定農業金融局的部分那第二個部分像這種保險的東西"},{"start":10144.605,"end":10158.895,"text":"剛剛我們同仁在講的保單的設計很重要雖然我們現在把稻米跟豬拿掉之後我們的覆蓋率相對很低但是保養的部分其實"},{"start":10162.177,"end":10178.7,"text":"還是對於大宗的、比較大宗的、大面積的種植其實我們還是要優先去處理啦比如說像水地的部分像我自己的故鄉、基地、它的面積就比較少但是我的域名很多啊,我的域名的面積很多啊"},{"start":10179.381,"end":10203.759,"text":"那比方說高粱的部分我們現在又我們又在替代作物的部分像高粱的部分今天我所知道的好像也有一些禮賠啦大概盡量不說很好啦或者是說我們跟金門像鹽水農會現在金門也要在那裡在鹽也不會過啦其實這些東西將來因為天候的變化其實很大啊所以變成說"},{"start":10205.06,"end":10218.934,"text":"我們經常會面對的很多大宗物資也面對很多挑戰的嘛那很多挑戰假設我們能夠用保險去做一個cover像我們昨天民雄、民雄、民雄都在講經濟嘛經濟水利到底要補助還是不補助還是要用補助比較好這個都會產生這些問題啦"},{"start":10227.643,"end":10247.256,"text":"所以我感覺說你們會被比較大面積的這種作務其實你們還是優先要擺在第一位啦我剛才提到你們對於像玉米或者是現在我們在推動的我們現在希望能夠高量增加我們這些面積這些你們當然要有什麼具體的計畫要怎麼做好保養的工作讓我們這些農民願意來參加這個保養覆蓋率會提高當然我們剛剛同仁在講到的像保單的設計你還是"},{"start":10257.904,"end":10271.557,"text":"農業部最重要的就是所有的事情都要把農民跟農業擺在第一位你英文就要有這個想法,我們不管怎麼樣就要據理力爭啦因為農業是最弱勢,啊農業今天你如果不替農民發聲你保單沒有幫農民去,你敢這樣農替民,你敢這樣看有補端生意什麼樣"},{"start":10281.286,"end":10300.691,"text":"我告訴你 全都看不下去啦他也不知道到底保端的設計對於有利跟不利假設今天我們主管單位你有這些人才你不去幫他做把關的工作你給他解剖解剖解剖到最後他也不一定得利啊所以這一部分我們通常在講到保端的設計的部分跟你剛剛講 這很重要的你們要把整體的做一個規劃"},{"start":10302.071,"end":10304.613,"text":"你今天去做部長有可能半年．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．�"},{"start":10328.905,"end":10354.494,"text":"我要說農民是怨聲載道因為為什麼這樣事實上我們之前已經有經歷過如果在於您這個農業保險的設計針對稻米它會有不同的品項有不同的稻米然後他們抗蟲害的能力是不同的所以您這個農業保險會想說我現在在我家裡我很多人要選擇一盒"},{"start":10357.395,"end":10373.987,"text":"如果不進財的話怎麼辦?因為他的損害,他的農損比較多可是他的平均值卻會被其他不同種類的影響,這是第一個所以你們要針對不同種類的稻米是不是要有獨立的一個設計?第二個,現在稻米的農業保險,你的理賠標準是用公所所定的農情標準"},{"start":10386.536,"end":10399.234,"text":"那公所的農情標準是不是符合實際的標準那為什麽不要回到讓農會他們事實上應對收入應對農民休息多少,等到他們更內行還有你怎麼說農情標準,然後農情標準"},{"start":10403.437,"end":10430.025,"text":"過去有一些農情標準有過去農情標準這個東西沒有什麼好過所以在過去你用5年前5年抓3年的平均這個農情標準這個農情標準未必符合實際狀況那就產生了農業保險是否理賠的這一個然後會有高度的爭議我想這個已經上路兩年了這兩年來確實也都有爭議發生那你們要怎麼杜絕這樣的一個爭議"},{"start":10433.424,"end":10455.043,"text":"我向委員報告,第一就是產量的基準我們現時是用農情調查過去五年的去頭去尾的奧林匹克平均沒有錯,農情調查過去不是為了保險計算用的這是我必須要同意的但是如果說你用農會的本單或收入"},{"start":10456.768,"end":10482.696,"text":"那更不可靠因為農民以水稻來講我交農會但是我有時候會直接交自營商所以他的稻米不是全部進到農會系統的時候那相對的他的產量以農會來講就會比較低所以這個其實我們也考慮到如果不要要農會那是不是回到農情調查要怎麼進進對,農情調查就是現在唯一公開的資訊所以我們現在也在增加"},{"start":10483.416,"end":10508.416,"text":"特別是農情調查我正在處理就是農情調查不管不論是水稻也好所有的作物都一樣它的農情調查如果不精準的時候我們後續的所有的保險的依據都會掛掉所以我們很重要就是我們針對農業的保險包括第一線的調查員然後包括怎麼樣用無人機本身去監控面積然後去用透過我們的改當場的協助去監控它的產量"},{"start":10509.096,"end":10534.191,"text":"還有一些平割的所以這個數據大概在兩三年之內就會把過去的農情調查的資料洗過一遍那洗過一遍的話他以後就會比較精準所以這個部分我想我們已經在做了那我也請委員能夠支持那像這個部分我想我們未來一定會特別是農業的數位化資訊的一個時代我們會把非常多的這些數位資訊包括一些續產的資訊我們也會針對調查的部分做精進"},{"start":10537.649,"end":10537.669,"text":"會議結束"},{"start":10540.885,"end":10568.283,"text":"玉米跟高粱我講謝謝您提醒啊玉米跟高粱我非常謝謝委員的一個建議就是玉米高粱本身高粱的部分其實我們已經進到已經大概投保率95%那因為它是一個當初我們在推帶兩張作物的時候高粱是一個非常重要的一個依據那玉米的部分我們現在正在做規劃但是玉米本身它"},{"start":10569.444,"end":10592.374,"text":"會比較有一點複雜度那我們希望說在明年初吧明年初的時候會把這個玉米的整個的一個保險的會重新去做計算那最重要就是還是剛才講到的就是他的理賠的就是產量的基準的計算這個部分我想我希望說他能夠更精進那我同時也在考慮就是說天然災害救助跟農業保險"},{"start":10594.611,"end":10623.439,"text":"某個程度可以雙軌但是不能百分之百雙軌要有一個更好的一個銜接啦不然會造成一些更大的一個困擾所以我們也在設計這個部分然後這個部分我想未來我想我們會更精進我來建議一下啦你說明年7月啦你有心要做啦最好不要在元月15號以後啦復會之後你自己可以推出來因為剛才我說我是"},{"start":10624.577,"end":10637.794,"text":"我們這個算老兵啊,我們這個也已經要退休了,啊你如果在我們退休陣營,我們沒辦法就馬上走,最起碼我們也可以,等於說我要退休陣營,我要讓大家催生,要準備保養,幾個月前,你兩個月前,十五個月以前,用我喝水啦。"},{"start":10643.821,"end":10643.941,"text":"來,那就照"},{"start":10664.748,"end":10689.956,"text":"賴瑞榮委員我們就是凍結一千萬那書面報告後是得凍資好那接下來處理78案78案的部分就是我們的加強流行性感冒的一個防疫計劃這個部分拜託委員能夠支持就是照原例書因為這整個的一個加強包括這些這些"},{"start":10692.86,"end":10706.276,"text":"監測的部分,像禽流感要做監測的部分防疫的部分,這個都是在這個計畫裡面去支應的特別是冬天到了很多疫情的一個發生這個部分我想是不是可以請委員能夠支持?有沒有跟廖國棟委員?"},{"start":10708.608,"end":10720.165,"text":"這個我們是會支持啦但是這是廖國東委員的提案有沒有跟廖委員溝通了這個有沒有改組決議他有同意然後改組決議是不是有拜會他"},{"start":10725.448,"end":10736.074,"text":"他有敗會但是他沒有簽名我覺得這個還是要支持啦這個對於禽流感對整個防治在溝通的時候你給他講一下"},{"start":10737.555,"end":10738.435,"text":"改組決議文字會修正再送進委員會"},{"start":10767.671,"end":10795.256,"text":"好,那修正後該主決議。再來,79案。79案是有關於農地生產環境的整備的部分。這個部分,分作兩部分。這個部分就是說,我們現在農地的盤查,有沒有。特別是這些違規工廠相關的農地的、幼狼農地的維護的一個盤查的部分。還有包括一些管理的部分。就是特別是現在我們這個公服法的一個實施以後,我們針對我們的"},{"start":10796.596,"end":10797.237,"text":"這次我是希望照MT案通過"},{"start":10820.471,"end":10844.589,"text":"因為這個農地的部分其實它跟國土規劃裡面有比較密切的關係那第二個它對於公福法的部分當然我們還是有一些爭議就是說這些農地的處理我們公福法裡面到底要怎麼樣去做才比較符合公平正義其實大家還是有一些爭議所以過去在很多中央合同我們一直在講到說我們"},{"start":10846.73,"end":10871.436,"text":"國土規劃的部分尤其是農地的部分或是說你來維作國土保育區其實對農民來說是跟他判施刑一樣所以到底要怎麼讓農民他感覺政府在國土規劃的過程裡面我們一輩子讓你維作農地或是維作國土保育地雖然我們判施刑但是你對我們要怎麼幫我們"},{"start":10875.037,"end":10894.159,"text":"補助、協助、怎麼樣來幫我們輔導讓我們可以感受到政府對我們的一個照顧的美意達到社會和諧社會的一個標準這是一個很重要的情形所以我們今天不是對你的預算有意見其實我們是站在一個就是農業關出現的立法院"},{"start":10896.802,"end":10897.984,"text":"他站在關心我們的農民．．．．．．．．．．．"},{"start":10909.972,"end":10937.78,"text":"農業關於農民．在．施行的當中．原來感覺政府在照顧基本上我們是要做好．做好一件照顧我們農民．跟我們這些．保護我們這些優良農地．將來讓我們的農地．糧食自給率．能維持到一定程度．一個尊重的情形就怎麼樣達到這個平穩很重要現在也有這樣的農地．它在工夫法的．這個法令之下．它可以"},{"start":10939.056,"end":10958.974,"text":"合法來使用．對國家的經濟．經濟發展．也沒有什麼要賣出．但是要安裝火．這個功夫法是一體適用．讓大家感覺到公平．現在有很多還是在講．還有很多爭議．所以這個部分．我們不是在對你的預算有意見．是希望我們怎麼樣來把它做得更好．"},{"start":10959.814,"end":10984.346,"text":"給你們一點時間,我們把這些做好了之後提出一個完整的報告,然後我們再來凍結,這個凍結我們再來開放讓你們去使用。我稍微不怕啦,這個遼國動這個也不是什麼惡意啦,也不是說要刪你們的預算,就是大家希望中來做得比較好。這樣歐元建議不要十分之一啦,十分之一比較多,十分之一就等於1500萬,不然我們只凍500萬這樣好不好?"},{"start":10989.448,"end":11015.604,"text":"提書面報告後解凍對,提書面報告後解凍好,接下來處理的是林務發展及造林基金來,第80案80案有關於服務收入的部分是不是可以建請、同意增列兩千萬不要到四千萬,因為四千萬可能兩千萬到四千萬什麼概念"},{"start":11017.588,"end":11043.196,"text":"兩千萬跟四千有什麼概念阿里山森林6227在我主席的時候書長答應說我們一定會重回一百萬沒錯吧這個目標可以達到嗎可以嘛今年在努力當中所以你今天說副收入八億多嘛這八億多你是用遊客人士來計算"},{"start":11045.05,"end":11059.243,"text":"我們是用概估大概這幾年的平均再逐增一下大概399萬的遊客數你的意思是如果113年前部的生產遊客基金可以突破420萬的話你現在說的是399萬那如果突破420萬的話我們就可以整個市場滿了對不對"},{"start":11067.37,"end":11070.231,"text":"我意思是要跟你說我自己的R23的油油汽液液股今年可以多少"},{"start":11084.266,"end":11099.253,"text":"今年預估大概可以,你說全部嗎?阿里山的遊客數大概可以到95萬左右你說要推100萬嘛,要突破100萬嘛明年可以突破100萬,應該沒有問題嘛所以我告訴你,可以增加4000萬,這應該是都可以達到目標啦,保留,不用替他煩惱啦"},{"start":11108.838,"end":11112.46,"text":"這幾年是受到疫情的影響嚴重影響很大好嘛 那就疫情過了嘛"},{"start":11137.495,"end":11137.735,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":11158.382,"end":11158.662,"text":"疫情的狀況"},{"start":11180.177,"end":11197.777,"text":"跟我們大概大陸客,假設我們3月份之後,應該都會有相對他們對阿里山市有一定的吸引力,所以我覺得這樣子應該是合理的啦,其實稅數的部分有膽怯到沒膽怯到沒什麼重要啦,你如果不可以放到底下"},{"start":11200.38,"end":11221.488,"text":"我補充一下從你的預算跟決算來看其實差了35萬那我覺得現在這個國內的旅遊其實大爆發我認為是很有機會來達成的所以我也是支持4千那凡基金嘛能夠達成不達成也並不會產生什麼實質影響那我覺得設定一個目標全力以赴好不好我們全力以赴"},{"start":11224.482,"end":11231.791,"text":"好,那就遭案通過來,第81到第86案請說明第81案的部分齁,那這個部分其實我們"},{"start":11237.344,"end":11260.653,"text":"這幾年已經也都努力的在各個方面在增加多元的這個行銷然後促銷這個我們的遊樂區的旅遊那另外我們也參加這個國際旅展有推出一些大概有50個遊程再來就是我們也推出主題遊程還有這個生態旅遊等等"},{"start":11263.474,"end":11277.004,"text":"來促銷這個整個遊樂區的這個行銷所以這個我們的那個相關的那個方案都持續在推出所以建立免禮這個刪減跟凍結"},{"start":11281.461,"end":11305.428,"text":"陳平副委員部長賴隊長委員我關心的還是我們阿里山臨鐵的前線通車的時間現在是我們遊客比較關心的問題所以你今天能不能告訴我們到底我們的臨鐵前線通車的時間這個跟委員說明一下等一下我們再綜合答覆好了賴隊長委員"},{"start":11307.248,"end":11329.754,"text":"好 我也認為其實這幾年特別疫情後啦那國旅其實都爆發了其實應該有很好的一個成長的機會那我是建議這個要加大推動的力道啦那特別是我覺得特別是在中南部的一些估計的部分都略嫌保守一些啦那我是希望著雨凍結啦然後給予也希望這個"},{"start":11331.354,"end":11333.996,"text":"主席我還是要強調一下臨鐵前線通出我覺得一族都有問題"},{"start":11358.618,"end":11371.006,"text":"如果要通啊,就要擺臉,這像前幾天的電視,我這樣看那天天樓頂頭,人家跳在手機,把他放在那裡,我現在沒有做得太好,副市長你過去就教他過,所以你覺得"},{"start":11381.178,"end":11400.484,"text":"沒有問題嘛,你到底你領帖是,一定是自己來補完工啦,這來行人跟人家一樣做的,而且不是一次捏,好幾次了捏,對不對,好幾次了捏,你阿里山領帖路,這樣先擺練啦齁,出軌啦,還是說"},{"start":11403.366,"end":11420.646,"text":"這個一些意外事件發生,我都感覺都是人為因素,阿你都沒有叫人去申請去調查嗎?這個是有問題的啦,沒有說說一個阿里蘭森林鐵路會出現這麼多的意外事件啦,你不覺得嗎?副市長"},{"start":11422.508,"end":11433.076,"text":"這個我們會去加強你不覺得嗎?我這個話語合不合理?你覺得呢?你像我這樣,我看電視啊,不是又看日產體育又出狀況,手機又在那裡,卡在那裡,對嗎?還要把那個廢車沒過耶"},{"start":11444.702,"end":11469.043,"text":"對,這個我們在每個列車在那個行駛之前我們都會去做一些巡軌的動作啦不是,我的意思是你們是內部一定有人在搞鬼啦那這個部分我們會去了解一定有人在搞鬼的啦這是你們一定是你們內部的問題啦你們能不能說有什麼對你們有什麼厭憤或是你們一些事情處理不好或是人家挑剔要通車就挑剔不給你們通這樣"},{"start":11471.843,"end":11489.892,"text":"要不然為什麼這個阿尼山森林鐵路的通促問題一直一直這樣以前沒辦法順利阿蓋仔一個錢阿這我們會來調查了解啦我是覺得你們的執行力也都不好嘛不是嗎工程也都有問題阿"},{"start":11494.278,"end":11499.464,"text":"阿里山森林鐵路處雖然說起來在農業部是一個很小的單位但是我覺得做成立到現在坦白講"},{"start":11507.378,"end":11527.223,"text":"整個都沒有彰顯出來,但是束褲平船,而且都沒有達到我們應該有的預期的一個目標。簡單的講是過去阿里山這條路是在阿里山的鄰居的轄下,現在自己成立一個處,這樣事情都做不順,所以你們自己都沒有去協助嗎?"},{"start":11538.627,"end":11564.485,"text":"其實阿里山的生鐵其實它有它的特色那我應該來講的就是說有一些人可能有惡意的去做出一些可能讓森林鐵路造成一些意外的一個可能這個部分我想我們會去做一個更積極的調查包括這些巡鐵的部分去了解那我們因為森林鐵路其實代表的其實某個雖然它單位小但是它代表的是一個"},{"start":11565.566,"end":11586.875,"text":"整個嘉義地區的一個非常重要的一個景點特別是嘉義娛樂森林公園的部分所以這個部分我想我們後續應該會更積極的我會後再找他們去了解他們整個應該要做的部分我是覺得阿里山森林鐵路是到阿里山非常重要的一條"},{"start":11589.056,"end":11602.904,"text":"這個觀光的鐵道也是很重要的觀光資源但是除此沒有辦法這個前線通車這個我是覺得很奇怪我用奇怪來形容很奇怪"},{"start":11603.824,"end":11625.587,"text":"所以這個部長你是應該要重視的我是覺得很奇怪很多的意外事故的頻傳這個一定有人為你們到現在為止你都沒人去查你都沒人去了解有沒有到行政案件都要起訴但是你內部你政府你也要去了解"},{"start":11626.568,"end":11626.688,"text":"主席"},{"start":11644.923,"end":11667.157,"text":"這個部分我想已經有報相關的一些軌道的鋪設已經報交通部了嘛所以這個部分我想我們還是會更積極的看看可不可以更早通車明年的更早通車啦這個是我們努力的一個目標明年如果要通車這樣我們那個處理上是跟你們勉勵一下啦這樣我看先用凍結好不好"},{"start":11671.702,"end":11672.242,"text":"前線通車當然很重要"},{"start":11693.389,"end":11698.334,"text":"我跑了幾次那個文資處還是什麼?臨鐵處跟文資處黃處長在那邊臨鐵六級文化資產管理處"},{"start":11708.94,"end":11728.405,"text":"換句話說就是說你們在前線通車的過程裡面像現在有很多他那個文字處裡面其實有很多的很吸引的亮點包括他車廂的設計啦那比方說他最近談到的像祝山是一個新的景點而且是很很很吸睛的"},{"start":11729.766,"end":11748.241,"text":"那怎麼樣去在前線通車的過程裡面利用我們森林鐵路的這些文化資產還有我們的特色來造成我們這些遊客的增加或者增加我們這些旅遊的觀光的這些效果其實是很重要的"},{"start":11749.182,"end":11762.687,"text":"所以基本上我想經費上面我們當然是希望你們做得更好啦所以我也一切都希望你們做得更好但是我希望就是說我們去看很多像這種文化資產的東西"},{"start":11764.656,"end":11784.047,"text":"跟我們那個森林鐵路,這些前面通路,你現在去,啊你這樣人很多在坐車,坐幾位車,都台北,都開車去你嘛,都會開車去你嘛,但是假設你有這一些東西有這些亮點,像Hinoki的車廂啦,還是說裡面有一些比較特殊的觀光的餐車啦齁,"},{"start":11786.088,"end":11809.868,"text":"其實都很吸引人就是說大家在優活的一種比較悠閒的一種旅遊生態裡面他會想說我要來坐阿里山的森林火車這個感覺上面是不錯的所以我希望你們還是要弄一些我們森林鐵路的這些文化資產的東西把它加到裡面去把這些因素加進去還有我們像新設的這一些"},{"start":11811.49,"end":11824.359,"text":"這個車站、珠山車站這一類的你們要把它廣為宣傳造成我們一個新的旅遊的一個風潮這樣可以帶動遊客嘛我希望你做得更好預算我沒有意見好 謝謝委員 建議"},{"start":11827.481,"end":11844.374,"text":"這樣就遭賴瑞榮委員,凍結500萬書面報告後時的凍資來,接下來處理．農業天然災害救助基金87-88案跟委員說明一下,農業天然災害救助基金大概明年編列是27.1億"},{"start":11846.696,"end":11861.329,"text":"那以今年來講到目前為止其實已經超過42億了所以我們不夠的部分我們都會跟行政院報報相關的災害準備金或第二預備金來支應所以我們希望說"},{"start":11862.51,"end":11886.981,"text":"這個天然災害27億能夠造元劣數因為他如果沒有天然災害我當然希望沒有太多天然災害發生他就不會動之但是一旦天然災害啟動了以後如果這些錢沒有到位的時候就會到時候查報完了以後我們錢沒辦法中央錢沒辦法付下去就會比較麻煩求議員委員完那一段委員"},{"start":11889.798,"end":11904.747,"text":"謝謝主席,我知道你們每年的天然災害救助基金都是不足的,但是部長您剛有提到天然災害救助跟農業保險之間以及我覺得"},{"start":11907.729,"end":11922.633,"text":"產銷調節或者是說整個耕作環境整個農民的一般的這些耕作的耕著氣象在變動的這一些耕作的這種知識或者是說所有的"},{"start":11925.214,"end":11944.328,"text":"資訊應該都是要同步下去做改善現在很多時候不一定是颱風或者是下雨來才會產生天然災害像最近美濃的那個番茄又遇到消長的問題因為又是天氣太熱所以我覺得整個氣候的變遷應該是要跟整個這些東西下去做聯動的"},{"start":11946.79,"end":11976.144,"text":"教育．所以我相信這份我是自己及時展示我認為那個教育部會案應該再提升好 謝謝委員建議我這邊也分享跟委員我們讓他再一次回答來 賴隊長委員向上我也是支持那我也是只是提醒說可能還是要持續的剛剛邱委員這樣講的那個就是持續要加強所有的一些聯動特別是對於農民的一些教育那另外有些提早做一些規劃跟因應的部分好來 翁崇鈞委員"},{"start":11979.182,"end":11999.732,"text":"因為我沒有意見但是我覺得天然災害的救助辦法這個法令我們要去精進一下這個我印象好久都沒有修了但是你看我們最近的這種天氣的激變變成說我們經常會產生很多的災害"},{"start":12000.552,"end":12024.466,"text":"然後談到很多災害,這些災害有時候是事前的,有些是事後的,有些是要以後用山零雷做平斷的。我有一種感覺是說當然我們現在的假設是可以用保險去扣嘛,我們簡單去用保險去扣,就不要再動到天然災害的部分。但天然災害做出辦法,不能因為這樣子我們就不去修。"},{"start":12025.427,"end":12055.027,"text":"因為第一個時效上面我經常像這些小前颱風,我們有比較經常都覺得我們是主動去看,然後我們主動發布嘛,對不對?但是,之前也覺得很晚啦,就是變成給農民,他現在住在宅海的時候,不是每天在洗衣服忙,到底會不會過,到底會不會曬,到底會不會破,每天都在擔心啦,然後我們這個民意代表,不勝其擾啦。"},{"start":12055.827,"end":12074.735,"text":"阿現在第一遍沒過、第二遍沒過、第三遍要拚了過．有時候就要常常都要拚了捏所以你們像像像阿小永我們以前的傳媒我讀到的都是修料阿還要大家用用用什麼什麼奧林匹克的什麼什麼重量像這一些東西我覺得"},{"start":12076.814,"end":12102.77,"text":"實效上怎麼去精進然後我們怎麼樣減少我們這些氣候變遷的這些因素盡量排除然後我們這一些災害的勘察怎麼樣去認定這些我們都希望比較有一個比較公平合理公正比較公正的一個方法去做評斷所以我比較在意的是天然災害的救助辦法"},{"start":12104.091,"end":12123.353,"text":"假設我們在保險的方面,我們做得好,天生災害的救助辦法也要好好的去修一下,我覺得這個法令有點古惑,不太符合現在的時代的條例,實效上面我覺得實效上面也很差,好不好,我們要好好把這個改一下,改改改好不好。"},{"start":12124.827,"end":12145.035,"text":"來請回應我講剛才邱委員所提到的就是天然災害保險天然災害跟農業保險其實還有跟我們的產地的生產資訊一定要做結合我們在醫藥特別預算我們投入了2.15億就是在各地去擴建我們的氣象站因為我們很多地形的關係"},{"start":12146.876,"end":12167.95,"text":"有些特殊地形我們就會追加這些氣象站讓他的那個氣象資訊是夠精準的而不是用一個比較推估的部分這個部分我想我們會努力去把它結合那剛才翁委員所提到的有關於天然災害救助其實我們也不斷的在精進包括我們用天然天氣參數直接可以去公告"},{"start":12168.65,"end":12195.623,"text":"用科技的這些手段可以去做勘栽但是本質上是需要做一些系統性的修改那這個部分其實我們在上個月在檢討的時候我也要求我們的輔導老師做整個系統性的檢討包括他的整個的流程包括公所因為特別我們發現到有一些部分雖然說我們公告了可是公所的勘栽的效率一直沒辦法提升那這個部分也必須在那邊去做一個解決"},{"start":12197.145,"end":12197.485,"text":"區公所農業課"},{"start":12214.844,"end":12226.07,"text":"每一個區公所的農業課出來勘栽的標準不一,你就會產生很大的落差,有的勘栽很鬆,有的是很嚴密,明明會過,他也是自己說不會過,就要一天兩天三次,搞到農民怨聲再到,說明明假期這樣有過,有時候我願意走沒過,就會有這種狀態,所以我覺得那個天然災害救助辦法裡面的標準,"},{"start":12240.438,"end":12259.286,"text":"那個其實是可以做一些精進包括你們的理賠的那個金額其實也可以做一些調整你現在所有的原物料成本都在上漲當中我覺得那個金額也可以做一些適度的調整那看債的標準這件事情我覺得還是要讓它比較能夠有一個橫平性出來好不好"},{"start":12260.387,"end":12270.367,"text":"我跟委員報告每一次勘差我們都有行前教育就是我們的試驗單位跟我們的分屬可是工作的人經常在玩"},{"start":12271.92,"end":12276.983,"text":"市長,我還是要感佩你這一次向這一次的小田宏泰這些嚴懲造成的倒龍的損害的部分,事實上"},{"start":12302.721,"end":12315.972,"text":"海期是比較明顯那三期岩石性的災損岩石性災損以後其實有很多的工作是沒有農業課是沒有成報的喔沒有去報的喔那還好是我們有去會刊喔會刊了以後"},{"start":12323.223,"end":12323.503,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":12341.006,"end":12367.442,"text":"前面把它公告為這個災期我是覺得這是政府能夠誓死的關心照顧農民讓農民能夠在這一次的一個災損裡面把他的災害降到這一點這一點我是自己表示肯定表示感謝事實上農民受到你這樣的一個照顧這一次確實是有感確實是有感"},{"start":12369.468,"end":12379.836,"text":"好,這樣就各位委員的...剛才齁,邱委員跟陳委員在講的啦,這都是...就是說"},{"start":12381.346,"end":12395.898,"text":"法令規定是一回事,你事務上去批判,又是一回事。這幾屆的審判委員,我告訴你,這壓力都很大。我告訴你坦白話,農業靠的人,要當這個人,他們都想說不知道會不會有事。生的、減的,影響很大。"},{"start":12403.604,"end":12415.149,"text":"所以我在想說你們天然代價的救助辦法,你們一定要撬開這個問題,而且要怎麼樣一體適用,你不要讓我們,那些既敢既得說的那些人,他要照顧農民他也會煩惱啊,你們都,那些稅務署有的人要關的呢?"},{"start":12419.23,"end":12420.55,"text":"你做農業部最重要的是要照顧農民但是你不能給基金公務人員"},{"start":12446.937,"end":12447.017,"text":"當然也會有爭議"},{"start":12468.453,"end":12489.91,"text":"阿我也不希望說當然民意代表很辛苦啦阿你補託你也這麼幫忙啦這個我們都知道說你這次小選颱風你對沙窟那你也有來人做一個照顧但是假設因為這樣子變成政治的角力或者在這一邊來頭在這說讓我們的行政單位受委屈我覺得也沒有必要啦因為"},{"start":12491.211,"end":12504.106,"text":"國家整體都是在為農民做事啦我今天站在農業館我也希望你退農民做事尤其是你一直農業沒中啦齁所以這一些東西我希望說我們要理論實務大家要好好去明天下去下去研究看看怎樣做"},{"start":12507.075,"end":12518.002,"text":"農業部．我們立法院．可以幫忙你．因為行政單位、審判單位．尤其是審判委員．不能有太大的壓力．從以前我們在紓困貸款．我們現在說也一大堆本來沒有誰能免責的．我們自己都沒辦法照顧我們以前的公務委員．"},{"start":12526.428,"end":12546.081,"text":"好,謝謝委員的建議,我想我們在未來在修法的時候,我們會...好,沒意見,沒意見我們這個今天開會就是這個中午不休息啦,來,來個農委員沒有沒意見,預算直接處理啦對啊,我想就是希望做得更精進啦,阿不然這個農業災害是對農民太重要,我們就是預算照列好,好,謝謝好,來"},{"start":12548.602,"end":12574.772,"text":"所來的是漁業發展基金89到91案那個漁業發展基金他的基金規模非常小那現在最主要的就是針對一些過往的這些文化的推廣還有一些我們通訊電台的一些改善然後還有一些畢業生上傳的一個實習那這個部分大概是這個部分那有些委員認為說是不是可以把這個基金關掉但是這個基金是根據漁業法"},{"start":12576.553,"end":12583.913,"text":"漁業法去設立的如果要把它拿掉的話可能都要去修法所以我們還是它有指標性的意義啦希望能夠維持著"},{"start":12586.164,"end":12608.721,"text":"我覺得其實因為台灣四周環海魚業是我們很重要的那不管是遠洋或者是連近海或者養殖都是很重要的產業但是從前一陣子前陣漁港那個風波就看得出來連議員都不見得了解我們魚業的重要性所以我是覺得教育跟推廣這件事情可能要再更積極的去做了讓更多人特別是比如說"},{"start":12609.582,"end":12610.422,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":12633.311,"end":12635.992,"text":"農產品受進口損害救助基金92-101"},{"start":12662.794,"end":12663.195,"text":"農業施工問題很嚴重"},{"start":12685.614,"end":12699.83,"text":"這不足啦所以這個部分剛剛農業部有什麼具體的解決方案沒有就是說農業切工的問題不解決然後很多的外勞都會逃跑這變成農村有很大的問題比如說"},{"start":12701.403,"end":12711.176,"text":"譬如說現在因為一般我們的農民,我們有時候農忙期,不然就持完成的一個外勞,所以有時候會處理多一點,像我們大陸那裡有一些鳳梨農,就是這樣想"},{"start":12717.765,"end":12731.691,"text":"因為有些公共公司的外樓是會去檢控,農民就會去抓,事實上這樣子的話,對他們來說,他們這間外樓就很方便,他們就在旁邊,所以他們就去檢控、檢控。所以一檢控、二檢控、三檢控、四檢控,這種事情,為什麼我們沒有去做一個改革?"},{"start":12743.496,"end":12764.376,"text":"既可以解決農業撤工的問題．又可以讓這些外勞不去營業．不去租市所以這個事情我是覺得這是一個很好的事情所以這個部分是不是農業部有沒有什麼具體的一個解決辦法沒有"},{"start":12765.07,"end":12789.51,"text":"我跟委員報告兩點第一點就是說就新進的部分我們大概增加了跟勞動部爭取一萬兩千名這個委員都知道那委員的關心就是說有一些非農業的但是他假日茫茫的時候來協助的部分其實這個我們也一直在跟勞動部做溝通但是現在卡到一個就是他的一個禮拜的勞動的法規就是一個禮拜的工時"},{"start":12790.991,"end":12812.848,"text":"工時可能會超過然後對於這些原來的雇主他會認為說你如果去農業要不要拜六月太累會影響到他禮拜一的正常的上工所以這個部分可能我們還必須要跟勞動部持續去做溝通看看可不可以有一些特殊的情況之下來做一個適當的處理"},{"start":12813.989,"end":12821.557,"text":"我想我再積極做一個反應大陸大部分地區有很多紅內農 因為我們想他們就是想說一些多路可以來兼顧這個行為一直都沒辦法做一個改革我是覺得農業部這一邊能夠積極甚至於來處理一下而且來減少我們農業缺工的問題好不好"},{"start":12836.693,"end":12836.713,"text":"92-101案"},{"start":12854.077,"end":12878.717,"text":"92到106案都是有關於我們的農產品全球通路的一個拓展計畫我給各位委員報告這個計畫其實對我們現在目前來講農產品走向高端市場是一個蠻重要的一個計畫包括之前中國因為中國暫停輸入的這些品項以外那相對的其實當時是有一個看起來是一個危機但是我們也趁這個機會能夠"},{"start":12880.979,"end":12900.861,"text":"把我們的重要的高品質的農產品往其他市場高端市場去行銷所以都是靠這樣的一個計畫在支持的那一個新的市場開拓它絕對不是一年兩年的一個就結束了所以我們希望說針對高端市場包括其實它的效果就是非常有效的就是"},{"start":12901.542,"end":12928.936,"text":"同樣的就是大陸的占比其實已經越來越低了從107年23點多到去年的12點多已經降低了但是我們更重要的是高端市場那現在鎖定的日本、新加坡這些東南亞的地區以外還有歐美的地區那我們希望說不同的品項能有不同的高端市場的一個拓展希望說能夠支持這樣的一個計畫能夠造圓列數好,支持啦,就要數據做了"},{"start":12932.038,"end":12933.659,"text":"但是你要知道"},{"start":12959.41,"end":12977.595,"text":"醫生你既然是這樣講你預算就不能亂用喔你今天在這邊講的話你就不能亂用喔假設說你只是要把我們的農產品表示說我們有出口外銷然後用大量的補貼結果其實喔賣多少啦?剛才本錢就沒有啦那這樣是要付錢嗎?"},{"start":12985.632,"end":13006.044,"text":"我跟你坦白講你過去就說有很多這種情況耶你現在有台灣的東西賣賣出台灣的東西出銷你現在要賣賣來吃吃住要用這種東西去開支那就不對囉你要講是你的政策目標是正確的我支持你但是你不能跟我做違反政策目標的事情"},{"start":13007.777,"end":13026.575,"text":"委員報告,就是整個的這個農產品全球通路的拓展計畫,絕對不會像委員所說的,我們臺灣不會出去用大量的錢去補貼,撒到國外去。我們一直在強調就是高端市場的一個取得,它本身在地的跟通路的合作,"},{"start":13027.516,"end":13043.955,"text":"在在地裡面透過相關的展覽或在地的宣導是一個非常重要的包括在地的消費者習性的分析然後另外有一些一開始在測試市場的水溫的時候的適當的這些外交獎勵是必要的"},{"start":13044.415,"end":13044.675,"text":"好支持啦好"},{"start":13061.665,"end":13081.241,"text":"政策上支持啦,我們支持,建議照原理的說法,了解啦保證這條基金預算我們支持啦,但是我是很在意我們佈置那個屠宰場喔,你們現在那個屠宰場的進度問題"},{"start":13084.103,"end":13092.906,"text":"養豬產業本身這個界位裡面其實有個非常重要就是土台廠跟肉品市場的能量的一個升級HACCP的部分然後第二個重點就是說"},{"start":13101.109,"end":13127.82,"text":"我們針對這些價格的維穩的部分一些畜牧產業價格的維穩委員頭關心的就是鋪子分場它是一個我們非常重要的一個旗艦的肉餅市場旗艦是旗艦不就速度太慢嗎?不是啦因為速度慢的旗艦計畫沒有啦這要跟委員報告這個是很重要的就是後來因為物價的關係但是我們也跟行政院溝通了就是水比較兇的啦"},{"start":13129.861,"end":13152.687,"text":"會更快,馬上就會把那個場先拆掉了,馬上就會動工了。我來講啦,你舖住馬邊市場,你那人做的很沒力的啦。你知道嗎?你根本你人做的,像你高進,你這個速度啦,速度慢的期間計畫啦。對不對?啊你裡面的委託,你也都委託給市產會去做。對不對?裡面的基委委員也委託市產會去做的。"},{"start":13157.256,"end":13166.782,"text":"所以我在想你們假設把這個把整個你們那個要破住八分氣球的那個個位啦整個攤開的不能看啦沒有什麼績效啦我們裁員啦這邊選了破住了選了以後你怎麼會負責任的啦齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁"},{"start":13187.606,"end":13189.587,"text":"預算沒意見預算招列農村再生基金102萬到108萬農債基金"},{"start":13201.59,"end":13219.379,"text":"基本上就是農菜本身我們在第三期的部分我們編列了149億那這149億大概分為兩個部分一個是跟人力的培育有關的大概是14億多那另外一個是跟建設有關的大概是130幾億大概加起來149億那其中"},{"start":13222.521,"end":13237.41,"text":"真正的農債裡面大概是104億但是裡面有設施的計畫有農機補助的計畫在裡面這幾個加起來是149億那第一個要說明的第二個部分就是其實人是農村的一個最經營的主體"},{"start":13238.491,"end":13267.078,"text":"所以我們過去在人力的規劃裡面大概分為三個面向剛才陳明慧委員問到的是有關於這些產業的人力團的部分但是更重要就是怎麼樣吸引讓年輕人進到農村裡面經營這個部分其實也是農產很重要的精神包括他在學校的時候我們就給予一些相關的獎勵然後讓他進到我們的職場裡面去訓練那這個部分都是在這個基金裡面去做的人力的規劃"},{"start":13268.28,"end":13273.9,"text":"跟培育的一個計畫那我建議委員能夠支持我們農債基金的一個原預算編列以上"},{"start":13277.501,"end":13300.359,"text":"農財的部分我想我是支持不過我還是希望持續的努力包括創造就業機會包括農村的休閒旅遊等等還有青農、流農這個我希望持續來推動這個當然特別是中南部都會特別的需要然後我比較偏遠的必須比較需要好不好那預算部分我支持那我兩個案我就改為主決議我認為要提草野先生的財位沒有就好"},{"start":13305.123,"end":13324.688,"text":"我想農債基金其實是一個我們非常重要的基礎建設,就是農村的基礎建設。我知道你這很重要的基礎建設,如果像你在做我就說這樣差不多啦,立法院的案我要先關心一下啦,我的意思是這樣子啦,有一些案子雖然你農債辦公室也沒有合法啦,"},{"start":13326.337,"end":13351.093,"text":"我們現在已經沒有農債辦公室了我們在改組以後就進到我們的中規室我就希望你們這樣做啦你如果要用農債辦公室在那裡控管你們的東西啦我們如果是小的我們錢給你用這個地方都不會用一個都你們在用這樣這樣也沒利啦對不對我想是整個農村的建設是所以補充你來看一看你走進去後你在處理的方式"},{"start":13352.274,"end":13377.75,"text":"我們該,欸,農財基金是很重要的一個單位捏,這當天時時我做調集委員我瞭解一千五百的,我一直要我們要求到兩千億捏,那錢也我當天時時,我那時候在審的時候我主審的啊,我怎麼會不清楚那農財基金為什麼會變這樣的一個基金,基本上它就是為了農業的發展嘛,農村的發展嘛,或者農民的收益嘛,阿嘛,我們也希望說"},{"start":13379.15,"end":13396.778,"text":"讓一些年輕人能夠返鄉勿農．讓農業有再生的機會所以我們現在在說城鄉差距一個是利用地方創生一個就是農村創生就是要讓農業能夠改變了過去的大家傳統的印象能夠讓我們的農業能夠發展起來"},{"start":13400.98,"end":13418.832,"text":"就是變成一個革命就是類似於一個綜合性的革命讓農村跟城鄉之間的差距可以減少讓農業跟著發展然後讓年輕人也不一定要留在都會他可以回到農村去發展這是很好的事情"},{"start":13420.473,"end":13446.375,"text":"但是假設我們今天把農村再生的這些經貨我們假設沒有好好用到最後你們變成一個政治的籌碼那當然我覺得不是很好這樣就不好了所以我不是反對你上任之後知道你是用心要去做這些事情把它做一個合理的分配然後做一個有效的執行這個我都看得到你部長也很用心但是我希望你要堅持"},{"start":13447.156,"end":13449.078,"text":"我一直在強調就是過去的農債三期的農債裡面其實很多"},{"start":13468.875,"end":13490.669,"text":"不要啦,那我們現在因為8月1號以後,我們農業部變成農業部部長,這個是不是你就提一份你們的後續的規劃啦,好不好,就是大概農在基金怎麼樣來促使剛剛達成幾個目標的這個效果,再提一份計畫給經濟委員會好不好,預算上我們支持啦我講一個稍微那個,但是你稍微有關係啦,我請教一下"},{"start":13495.188,"end":13513.886,"text":"我請教一下,農會法裡面的規定,農會總幹事的初缺,中途初缺也好,這次初缺也好,他都有相關的規定啦。中途初缺的時候,他60天裡面要完成0米是嗎?"},{"start":13519.38,"end":13534.286,"text":"縣府要公告然後開始進行聆聘作業一直到來我們農業部面談他有法定期間的縣府的時間的限制還有部裡面的時間限制都有一些規範規範對啦,阿如果沒照顧規範做什麼"},{"start":13537.978,"end":13561.064,"text":"我們會做行政指導我會做行政指導你都說做行政指導我怎麼不來做行政指導你都不敢來回答答案啊對不對部長再跟文委員溝通一下好不好我會說像這種東西不要有太多的政治操縱啦你也知道我跟你這個業務不對啦我會跟他吵翻天啊對不對"},{"start":13562.999,"end":13581.734,"text":"歷史都有記錄,我沒有希望農會總幹事出缺,你們不要有太多的政治運作,我知道你們這個人不是你們,但是紅重金在經濟委員會上我尊重一下,我腰在這裡,要處理什麼事情要過我那邊會過,"},{"start":13585.616,"end":13607.832,"text":"規劃我不會過,這樣比較不好,你不要再提我了,知道嗎?部長,在了解去溝通一下好不好?我想我們會有了解,我非常尊重我們的...要尊重每一位委員我真的非常尊重好,來好,謝謝好,這樣就是農村再生基金預算照列好,來我的改組決議那102案和106案改組決議好"},{"start":13613.083,"end":13624.227,"text":"好來再來109遵照辦理好召喚通過110遵照辦理召喚通過111遵照辦理召喚通過112遵照辦理召喚通過113遵照辦理召喚通過124遵照辦理召喚通過115"},{"start":13634.029,"end":13645.001,"text":"有文字的一個修正是在倒數第二行的最後提交書面報告而不是提交專案報告是不是可以改好沒問題"},{"start":13646.127,"end":13653.672,"text":"116 遵照辦理117 遵照辦理118 遵照辦理119 遵照辦理120 121 遵照辦理122 遵照辦理123 遵照辦理124 遵照辦理125"},{"start":13668.942,"end":13678.605,"text":"1、2、5有文字修正就是倒數第二行農業委員會改成農業部倒數第一行進行專案檢討報告改成提出書面檢討報告"},{"start":13685.478,"end":13700.723,"text":"好沒意見那議員修正後通過126捐照辦理責喚通過127捐照辦理責喚通過128捐照辦理責喚通過129捐照辦理責喚通過130捐照辦理責喚通過131捐照辦理責喚通過132捐照辦理責喚通過133捐照辦理責喚通過134捐照辦理責喚通過135捐照辦理責喚通過136捐照辦理"},{"start":13711.846,"end":13738.702,"text":"照案通過137有文字的一個修正就是倒數第二行是不是可以改成一個月改成三個月好沒意見好那就一修正後通過138遵照辦理照案通過139139也是文字修正倒數第二行一個月進行改成三個月好沒意見好一修正後通過140遵照辦理照案通過141遵照辦理照案通過好"},{"start":13740.117,"end":13756.931,"text":"那接下來處理農民退休基金那142案農民退休基金裡面他這邊的一個投資業務的成本的部分那因為有他的必要性是不是可以能夠讓我們元劣數159案見及免以刪除我建議照列OK"},{"start":13760.854,"end":13777.165,"text":"那就預算照列好來那處理組決議143遵照辦理召喚通過144遵照辦理召喚通過145遵照辦理召喚通過146遵照辦理召喚通過147遵照辦理召喚通過148遵照辦理召喚通過149遵照辦理好那還有剛剛的一個組決議來請宣讀53-1請宣讀就是組決議請農業部等一下還沒宣讀"},{"start":13792.8,"end":13819.246,"text":"農田水利事業作業基金新增組決議五十三之一案請農業部農田水利署盤點全國爭議排水數量及區位與地方政府研商、共謀改善之道並爭取預算、分年分期改善委員陳明文等提案宣讀完畢沒有意見好,召喚通過請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":13822.509,"end":13840.942,"text":"宣讀協商結論 農業作業基金第一案照案通過第二案第三案預算照列二案改為主決議第四案第五案預算照列本二案改為主決議第六案第七案預算照列其中第七案改為主決議"},{"start":13843.934,"end":13864.783,"text":"第8案至11案預算照列其中第8案、第9案、11案改為主決議第12案預算照列主決議部分第13案到26案照案通過27案修正通過28案、29案新增決議29之1案均照案通過"},{"start":13866.898,"end":13886.932,"text":"農田水利事業作業基金第30案照案通過第31案到33案其中32案測案業務成本與費用預算照列第34案到37案服務費用預算照列其中35案改為主決議第38案到40案預算照列"},{"start":13887.993,"end":13914.299,"text":"主決議部分41案照案通過42案修正通過43案44案照案通過45案修正通過46案到53案及新增53至1案均照案通過農業特別收入基金第54案基金用途預算照列農業發展基金第55案預算照列第56案至58案"},{"start":13917.939,"end":13931.229,"text":"預算照列其中56案、58案改為主決議第59案到62案穩定肥料及相關計劃凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第63案至69案產銷調節計劃預算照列其中63案改為主決議第70案至77案農業保險計劃凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資"},{"start":13945.919,"end":13960.141,"text":"第78案．預算照列本案改為主決議．第79案．農地生產環境整備等計劃．凍結500萬元提出書面報告後時的凍資。．營業發展及照林基金．第80案照案通過"},{"start":13961.792,"end":13970.057,"text":"第81至89案．森林遊樂及林業鐵路經管計劃．凍結500萬元提出書面報告後．得凍資。．農業天然災害救助基金．第87案．88案預算照列。．漁業發展基金．第89至91案．漁業發展補助計劃．凍結150萬元提出書面報告後．得凍資。"},{"start":13986.84,"end":14001.789,"text":"第92案．101案．農產品受淨殼損害災害救助基金預算照列．農村再生基金第102案．108案．預算照列．其中102案、106案改為主決議．主決議部分109案．114案照案通過．115案修正通過．116案．124案照案通過．125案修正通過"},{"start":14025.888,"end":14036.755,"text":"116案到124案照案通過125案修正通過126案到136案照案通過137案修正通過138案照案通過139案修正通過140、141照案通過"},{"start":14042.942,"end":14062.331,"text":"農民退休基金第142案．投資業務成本預算照列．主決議部分143案．149案均照案通過宣讀完畢好請問各位同仁有委員提案的部分照剛剛宣讀的結論通過沒有提案的部分均照列或隨同調整請問有異議"},{"start":14065.652,"end":14079.974,"text":"沒有異議就通過113年度農業部主管．非營業基金審查完略通過之決議．文字授權主席及議事人員整理我們所列議程處理完略散會"},{"start":14088.099,"end":14088.519,"text":"發言委員．完整"},{"start":14111.348,"end":14111.548,"text":"主席"},{"start":14120.06,"end":14120.921,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15314","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15314","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d69f9bd0cb75d545dce1f9dc46489d24146d53a332764a53514a2159a2f5d915c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。\n三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案。\n(第三案如未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答，相關提案請於12月1日中午12時前提出。)\n【11月29日及30日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2023-11-29","start_time":"2023-11-29T08:31:00+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-10-8-22-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-11-29T11:24:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":10380,"委員發言時間":"08:31:00 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。四、在不影響文藝前提下,授權議事人員於113年度中央政府總預算案審查報告與黨團協商之範例整理。五、113年度中央政府總預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案及國立故宮博物院主管故宮文物藝術發展基金附屬單位預算案全部審查完均。"},{"start":2244.288,"end":2264.445,"text":"六、113年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案審查完畢,審查結果如下,稅務部分第二款罰款及賠償收入,中央研究院照列第四款財產收入,中央研究院原列473萬8千元增列第一幕財產知行,第二節租金收入19萬6千元,其一均照列改列為493萬4千元。"},{"start":2266.747,"end":2281.722,"text":"第七款其他收入中央研究院照列稅出部分第一款總統府主管中央研究院原列136億5498萬7千元除第五沐非營業特勇基金第一屆科學研究基金12億7153萬4千元"},{"start":2284.344,"end":2298.819,"text":"站照列自所屬分一頁特種基金審議確定在行調整外期預軍照列本項通過決議五十七項簽113年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究基金附屬單位預算案審查完畢。"},{"start":2299.7,"end":2323.31,"text":"審查結果如下。一、業務計劃依依據基金來源與用途審查結果隨同調整。二、基金來源用途及餘處。一、基金來源原列4187759000元。增列財產收入向下權利金收入200萬元。請以均兆列改列為4189759000元。二、基金用途兆列。三、本期剩餘原列2816萬增列200萬元改列為3016萬元。"},{"start":2328.272,"end":2355.22,"text":"三、截了公庫無劣數四、補辦預算固定資產建設改良擴充造劣八、一百一三年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案及科學研究基金附屬單位預算案全部審查完略十一月、十六月討論事項一、今日審查一百一三年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案二、今日審查一百一三年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管"},{"start":2355.84,"end":2373.141,"text":"國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案。厲三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案。厲四、審查113年度行政法人國家表演藝術中心文化內容策進院國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案決議一"},{"start":2374.582,"end":2388.289,"text":"113年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案審查完畢。審查結果如下。稅務部分第二款罰款及賠償稅務部文化部照列文化資產局照列影視及流行音樂產業局照列國立傳統藝術中心照列國立台灣美術館及所屬照列"},{"start":2393.411,"end":2421.766,"text":"國立臺灣工藝研究發展中心照列國立臺灣博物館五列數國立臺灣史前文化博物館五列數國家原權博物館五列數國立臺灣歷史博物館照列國立臺灣文學館五列數第三款貴費收入文化部照列文化資產局照列影視及流行音樂產業局照列國立臺灣美術館及所屬照列國立臺灣工藝研究發展中心照列國立臺灣博物館照列"},{"start":2422.566,"end":2448.806,"text":"國立台灣史前文化博物館照列國家人權博物館照列國立台灣歷史博物館照列國立台灣文學館照列第4款財產收入文化部照列文化資產局照列影視及流行音樂產業局照列國立傳統藝術中心照列國立台灣美術館及所屬照列國立台灣工藝研究發展中心照列國立台灣博物館照列國立台灣史前文化博物館照列國家人權博物館照列"},{"start":2449.466,"end":2476.599,"text":"國立臺灣歷史博物館照列國立臺灣文學館照列第7館其他收入文化部照列文化資產局照列影視及流行音樂產業局照列國立傳統藝術中心照列國立臺灣美術館及所屬照列國立臺灣工藝研究發展中心照列國立臺灣博物館照列國立臺灣史前文化博物館照列國家人權博物館照列國立臺灣歷史博物館照列國立臺灣文學館照列說出部分第19館文化部主管第一項"},{"start":2477.199,"end":2495.015,"text":"往後部委員列180億9027萬5千元除第10目非營業特種基金8673萬元佔照列自所屬非營業特種基金審議確定再行調整外檢列第9目蒙藏文化中心業務50萬元科目自行調整前以均價列改列為180億8977萬5千元本項通貨決議120項"},{"start":2500.359,"end":2524.031,"text":"第二項文化資產局照列本項通過決議19項第三項影視及流行音樂產業局照列本項通過決議12項第四項國立傳統藝術中心照列本項通過決議3項第五項國立台灣美術館及所屬照列本項通過決議3項第六項國立台灣工藝研究發展中心照列本項通過決議2項第七項國立台灣博物館照列本項通過決議3項"},{"start":2525.171,"end":2550.946,"text":"第8項國立臺灣史前文化博物館照列本項通過決議二項第9項國家人權博物館照列本項通過決議三項第10項臺灣歷史博物館照列本項通過決議一項第11項國立臺灣文學館照列二、113年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案審查完畢審查結果如下國立文化機構作業基金照案通過"},{"start":2552.767,"end":2580.537,"text":"通過決議一項。三、113年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化發展基金附屬單位預算案審查完據。審查結果如下。文化發展基金章通過。通過決議二項。四、113年度行政法人國家表演藝術中心預算案審查完據。明據審查報告提報院會不許加入黨團協商。院會討論時由政召集委員立文出席說明。審查結果如下。國家表演藝術中心113年度預算書案。章案通過。"},{"start":2581.437,"end":2599.162,"text":"通過決議三項五、113年度行政法人文化內容測經院預算案審查完畢明確審查報告提報議會不需交給黨團協商議會討論時由政交集委員立文補充說明審查結果有效文化內容測經院113年度預算書案照案通過"},{"start":2602.07,"end":2619.59,"text":"厲,113年度行政法人國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案審查完畢,依據審查報告提報院會不需加入黨團協商,院會討論時由政交集委員補充說明,審查結果如下國家電影及視聽文化中心103年度預算書案照案通過,通過決議項宣布完畢"},{"start":2636.82,"end":2639.953,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處?"},{"start":2643.134,"end":2644.295,"text":"好,我們現在介紹在場的委員。"},{"start":2673.434,"end":2697.488,"text":"首先是張亮萬堅委員陳秀寶委員介紹官員核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽核能安全委員會副主任委員國家原子能科技研究院董事長張欣"},{"start":2700.174,"end":2728.539,"text":"行政院主計總處公務預算處專門科員黃子涵行政院主計總處基金預算處科長周明正好,謝謝我們現在請陳主任委員進行報告時間8分鐘主席、各位委員、女士、先生大家好"},{"start":2729.707,"end":2755.673,"text":"今天很榮幸代表核能安全委員會並協同各單位主管向大院進行113年度的預算報告首先對於大院委員對核安會過去各項業務的推動以及預算編列的支持及指教至上敬意及謝承核安會的重點工作以核安首付核會處理為施政主軸聯合國"},{"start":2758.985,"end":2781.593,"text":"2030年永續發展目標為願景,定定強化原子能安全管制,確保公眾安全,推廣原子能科技創新,培育跨域人才,建立原子能關鍵技術,促進產業價值,發展能源及後端技術,推廣產業應用,為年度四大市政目標。"},{"start":2783.809,"end":2793.488,"text":"首先有關於公務預算部分配合行政院組織改造原子能委員會改制為三級獨立機關核能安全委員會"},{"start":2795.735,"end":2811.328,"text":"輻射偵測中心改制為四級機關放射性物料管理局並入核能安全委員會內部單位核能研究所改制為行政法人國家原子能科技研究院核安會及所屬113年度稅出編列30億1161萬8千元稅入編列1億4282萬4千元"},{"start":2821.577,"end":2836.124,"text":"期盼各位委員支持核安會的預算必立核安會執行法律賦予及民眾退戶的任務核安會妥善運用112年度的預算已經取得諸多重要成果"},{"start":2837.113,"end":2859.879,"text":"包括完成核三廠除疫計劃的審查作業核三廠二號機大修作業的管制推動醫療暴露的平保強化中央與地方輻射災害聯合應變機制日本寒川廢水排放跨部會的因應作業原子能科技學術合作研究以及原子能科普推廣等"},{"start":2861.664,"end":2872.957,"text":"核安會113年稅出編列29億2,409萬1千元其中在補助行政法人國家原子能科技研究院經費上編列21億2,161萬8千元"},{"start":2878.504,"end":2899.417,"text":"核安會重點工作包含持續核電廠除役放射性廢棄物處理及儲存的設施管制加強輻射安全防護與輻射醫療品質的管制精進輻射災害防救技術及事故的處理能力以及深化國際交流"},{"start":2900.66,"end":2925.669,"text":"跟合作推廣原子能科普跟全民溝通充實原子能科學發展人才培育提升國家科研量能等。偵測中心編列87527000元重點工作包含基本行政工作的維持台灣地區環境輻射的偵測台灣周邊海域海水川的監測"},{"start":2927.205,"end":2941.15,"text":"輻射偵測技術的建立以及新世代智慧輻射監測站等接著報告核子事故應變基金113年度基金用途預算編列1億128萬9千元較上年度增加682萬5千元主要系概列"},{"start":2950.236,"end":2972.302,"text":"增列汰換緊急應變業務所需之網路負載平衡設備以及屏東縣汰換到期點變的經費另外緊究112年度重要工作成果及113年度的預算編列重點報告如下112年度重要工作成果包括完成河岸第29號演習即有11212人參與"},{"start":2977.694,"end":3003.494,"text":"另外分別完成核子事故緊急應變法與相關法規的研修輻射應變資訊地圖導入空中偵測檔案與精進圖台的顯示功能在多元化溝通宣導方面包括足理疏散演練原子能科技科普展與地方政府的防災宣導活動應變人員教育訓練、基隆市核二廠"},{"start":3004.963,"end":3006.185,"text":"緊急應變計劃區內家庭訪問以及製作民眾的防護月曆等。"},{"start":3012.517,"end":3032.908,"text":"113年度重點工作包括辦理核安第30號演習持續檢視以及研修核子事故緊急應變相關法規維持備援實驗室的量能擴增輻射災害情質網的功能以及更新決策資訊的圖資應變人員教育訓練新北市核電廠緊急應變計劃區內的家庭訪問強化公民參與"},{"start":3042.041,"end":3064.366,"text":"協助推動社區防災自主管理並持續辦理防災社區民眾黃埠宣導溝通及疏散演練製作民眾黃埠閱歷等多元化民眾溝通的宣傳教育等接著報告行政法人國家原子能科技研究院收支編列情形及業務重點國研院112年收入編列8億8763萬7千元"},{"start":3070.925,"end":3077.429,"text":"支出編列8億6467萬7千元收支相抵後剩餘2296萬元113年收入編列29億9300萬7千元支出編列29億4713萬9千元收支相抵後剩餘4586萬8千元緊就預算業務重點報告如下"},{"start":3098.42,"end":3120.805,"text":"國研院為我國核能與輻射應用的專責研究機構主要是研發概分為核安跟核後端、核一製藥跟民生的輻射應用、新能源跟跨領域的系統整合首要任務在確保國內核後端的安全、輻射應用、核一要務的發展"},{"start":3121.857,"end":3135.263,"text":"推動國家綠能發展期待能夠協助政府達成我國2050年淨零排放的目標核安會為國內核能輻射及放射性物料安全的管制機構"},{"start":3136.953,"end":3151.187,"text":"並持專業技術依法嚴格執行各項管制工作,確保各項原子能民生應用的安全,未來將以更獨立的組織、更專業的團隊進行福安和安的管制。"},{"start":3152.128,"end":3166.337,"text":"同時在管制跟監督工作上面也會更加落實民眾參與跟資訊透明,爭取民眾的信任跟支持。敬請各位委員對核安會的預算會與大力的支持跟協助。謝謝。"},{"start":3176.505,"end":3184.234,"text":"謝謝陳主任委員口頭報告我們現在進行尋答每位出行委員質詢4分鐘必要時延長2分鐘內席委員質詢時間為3分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分委員如果有臨時提案請於上午10點30分之前提出"},{"start":3195.568,"end":3207.64,"text":"並與本會委員質詢結束後進行臨時提案處理。處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場,原例不予處理。首先我們請發言登記第一位張亮萬堅委員質詢。好謝謝主席我們請那個主委主委請"},{"start":3217.967,"end":3237.697,"text":"主委好,因為我們只有4分鐘,所以我們就快速快答。好,張亮委員早。三個問題,第一個就是我們主改之後,明年是第一個完整年度的預算。可是我也知道說你們為了要安置一些這個原額,譬如說這個國研院改制為行政法人嘛,核安所。"},{"start":3238.297,"end":3265.056,"text":"那必須要有一些安置吧好我們看安置的32人而且還移撥了20個員額等於說我們這個主改之後其實是變成行政院的三級機關獨立機關那但是員額又增加這個在這個主改之後我們的業務範圍或各方面到底有什麼調整那這樣子會變成一個比較奇怪的現象就是說我們行政程序其實是往下"},{"start":3265.856,"end":3267.718,"text":"主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會"},{"start":3282.575,"end":3308.251,"text":"我關於人力的部分我們昨天做了詳細的了解這個是有一些歷史言語人事主任因為他剛來不到一個月我請主秘來解說這一段會後也會給各位比較詳細的資料就是有關於歷史上我們是怎麼樣來解釋這一塊來主秘"},{"start":3309.82,"end":3330,"text":"根委員報告有關於移撥20個員額那是當時我們在科技部核安署底下的時候因為科技部當時跟核研所要了20個空缺那當時科技部獨立升格以後後來這20個缺就被行政院控管然後他的條件是等到核安會主改過後"},{"start":3331.021,"end":3335.402,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":3348.626,"end":3350.788,"text":"主席總署目前沒有核給這20個,只有空缺而已。"},{"start":3370.026,"end":3372.727,"text":"二、審查123年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":3398.4,"end":3400.721,"text":"二、審查2016年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":3421.751,"end":3432.915,"text":"從1980年代到現在已經放在我們的核能所已經放很久了那我記得當時是說2018年要簽約啦2017年要簽約2018年要處理2019年要完成那2018年問的時候呢又說會2018年簽約2022年要完成"},{"start":3442.598,"end":3450.1,"text":"二、審查2022年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會"},{"start":3466.885,"end":3485.539,"text":"謝謝委員的指教,那個前幾年是因為疫情的關係,那麼剛開始其實這個六幅畫又是要送往美國處理,那後來因為種種因素後來改送到英國,但是現在的容器在英國它的設計還沒有被核准。"},{"start":3486.54,"end":3488.543,"text":"委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":3503.08,"end":3528.535,"text":"我的意思是說我知道說其實你們也曾經回答過我們說比如說2018年12月的時候已經跟美國的U公司簽約那這個運送還包括國內入運國外的海運入運那還說國內的入運在2019年10月23號就簽約了那國外海運跟入運的部分呢在2020年的2月21號已經第4次開票也是由美國的T公司來得票那後來陸續也都議價簽約那為什麼現在又都還沒有"},{"start":3532.138,"end":3536.15,"text":"到底遇到了什麼問題?那你現在編的這個預算有沒有辦法執行?"},{"start":3538.063,"end":3561.137,"text":"這個我想我請那個國研院高院長來回答一下細節來高院長那會不會又現在又說是因為國研院主改了所以將來又拖了那到底是遇到什麼問題報告廖委員主要現在的問題事實上本來是預計今年可以運去但是英國核管單位向他申請這個運輸容器的一個空箱的時候"},{"start":3562.077,"end":3591.35,"text":"那到今年年底才可以取得一個許可文件所以依照目前的進程在明年9月的時候才有辦法執行到運送運送完以後到英國的地方還要再做一些驗收處理所以預估我們是在明年年底明年12月底會轉成檢測分析跟這個所有權的轉移因為這個物料也要做所有權的移轉所以預估現在目前預估很合理的預估應該是明年年底我們可以完成"},{"start":3591.87,"end":3610.325,"text":"因為齁這個問題真的每年都有在關心而且你們預算有時候編有時候沒有編但一年編一年編沒編就是諮詢率都很低啦在審預算勢必又會被提起啦那當然我的意思就是說運送這個當然有它的國際敏感度啦你們那個公司在處理也都是用代號那這個有它的困難度"},{"start":3611.326,"end":3636.68,"text":"究竟怎麼樣克服我想你們也都是專家我們也都外行但是呢我們都很關心這個畢竟放那麼久了他在國內的處理成本跟他未來產生的問題其實是比運到國外去處理還要高啦成本還要高一般評估是這樣所以這部分呢也請你們要注意啦那另外呢是我們之前有提到那個SMR就是說選舉到了嘛大家提說什麼核二核二三要研議等等"},{"start":3637.02,"end":3639.081,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":3657.145,"end":3681.996,"text":"那我們台灣對於這些小型模組的一些核能發電到底有沒有進行周邊的研究是的我想國研院在今年就112年那麼他們有做了一些study有一些小的計畫那麼做一些管制措施的研究跟國際趨勢的一些所以你們也有這個三個禮拜前美國這個"},{"start":3682.956,"end":3684.738,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":3712,"end":3712.661,"text":"委員會主管核能安全委員"},{"start":3734.436,"end":3762.31,"text":"國衛院目前由核安會有委託一百萬的先期研究做這樣的有一個一百萬的先期研究一百萬對對對尤其偏重於管制方面核安管制方面做一個先期的研究我想最新的趨勢跟發展我們還是需要啦我跟你講如果他技術已經成熟那台灣也不可能置外國際嘛那當然如果他遇到問題我們也不可能浪費很多錢在這上面啦那沒關係詳細的數字我們還要審查預算下個禮拜一我相信你可以再提供給我們好謝謝"},{"start":3763.43,"end":3769.898,"text":"好謝謝委員好謝謝我們接下來請陳秀寶委員質詢介主席請陳主委請主委"},{"start":3783.882,"end":3806.315,"text":"陳委員早陳委員早請問主委聯合國企劃變後綱要公約第28次的第一月份會議在這個月底會召開那主要是邀請40個核能國家來加入行列讓全球核能產量在2050年翻三倍那這樣的訊息我們核安會這邊有掌握相關嗎"},{"start":3807.717,"end":3824.45,"text":"是的有了解有吼國科會這邊跟中研院也正在密切的發展2050近年排放的相關能源科技那針對這個國際間能源政策的變化也希望核安會這邊有了解到掌握到來隨時來應應國際的趨勢接下來呢我想請教主委吼"},{"start":3829.394,"end":3849.249,"text":"我們核安會是我國核能及輻射安全的專責機構那執行我國就是關於輻射安全管制以及落實緊急應變機制還有環境的偵測來維護我國民眾安全健康也因此呢我們核安會這邊有製作一款叫做核安1.通的這個APP那"},{"start":3850.906,"end":3880.3,"text":"並配合就是核安會組織改造在9月底也有改版那主委你自己有下載這個APP嗎?有手機有下載我下載之後我發現有一些問題來提醒一下首先是內容的部分我有把它框出來這個APP配合我們核安會的組織改造有在9月底更新但是有一些很明顯的輸入是沒有更正到這不是很大的問題但是還是民眾一看就會覺得說有點矛盾怎麼是9月27號核能安全委員會成立改版但是我們上面的還是"},{"start":3880.68,"end":3906.463,"text":"由行政院原子能科技研究院來建置。這是我們一些文字沒有修正到的這部分來提醒一下。接下來要談到的這個部分是相關我們防護的宣導。我覺得比較容易會造成民眾的混淆。我也希望說你們在製作這樣的提醒事項的時候能夠更簡潔。圖上我們先看左邊這一張。在孕婦的部分圖上寫說建議服用點片是二分之一訂。"},{"start":3907.344,"end":3932.083,"text":"但是所以在下方呢又有紅字備註我寫112年起孕婦建議的服用劑量是改為一定那如果按照我們核安會這邊的專業評估建議量你們已經更新了為什麼你還要用舊的資訊然後下面再備註那到底是他要先吃了二分之一之後才會看到說哇是一定然後要補充嗎這個部分是不是能夠更清楚的告訴大家我是吃一定還是二分之一定"},{"start":3933.908,"end":3961.734,"text":"謝謝陳委員的提醒那麼我們注意到這一點那我們年底會整個改版那事實上我有要求我們會裡面的同仁所有很多很細節的地方要把原子能委員會改成核能安全委員會那麼總是會有一些漏掉的地方那麼我們會注意謝謝委員提醒那個就是文字的更正而已但是我現在講這個部分我瞭解右邊的這張圖喔大人的建議服用是一定注意事項又寫"},{"start":3962.674,"end":3964.456,"text":"四十歲以上成人不建議服用。"},{"start":3986.756,"end":4009.729,"text":"這個部分是不是比較簡單明瞭讓民眾不會有疑慮或者說我還要看仔細下面的備註所以其實我們核安的宣導已經比其他像地震還是消防這樣的災害的宣導還要比較不足那如果我們在這個官方的宣導又沒有很清楚明瞭讓民眾來瞭解我覺得說這個部分是可以去做改善的你們覺得自己是不是應該在這邊做調整"},{"start":4011.21,"end":4026.865,"text":"謝謝委員非常好的意見,我們會來精進這方面細節。我想廖組長也在這個地方,他剛才也有跟我講說我們會來全面做一些改進,謝謝。那你們預計多久?年底嗎?"},{"start":4029.605,"end":4042.094,"text":"原則我們年底就會把它完成就這個部分謝謝那除了APP的內容要改進之外其實主委我必須老實說這個APP的下載量也是驚人的低從106年上線到現在6年的時間下載雙平台總共只有一萬兩千人下載而且在緊急應變計畫區就是會接觸到就是在核電廠附近的民眾呢其實只有2.2%的人有接觸過這個APP可見核安會你們在推廣相關的這些"},{"start":4057.925,"end":4083.374,"text":"核安的資訊防護的安全防護這個部分加上民眾說明的事項你們並沒有非常積極當然我也清楚說核安會這邊你們的預算規模不多所以核安會這邊也跟國科會這邊的國家災害防救科技中心有進行合作在災害中心的LINE官方的帳號也會推播輻射災害這些相關的訊息那既然你們已經有跟防"},{"start":4084.174,"end":4110.411,"text":"災害防救中心有合作而且災防中心他們的平台訂閱人數也比你們自己的APP還要多那你們有沒有還要堅持做自己的APP你們會不會評估一下因為其實APP的建設你每個月需要蠻多一筆的維管費用那也要維持維護這個APP的資安那你們自己本身在這個業務上推廣也沒有很積極的話你們覺得說這個APP還要做嗎還是說你們要直接跟這個災害防救中心來配合宣導就好"},{"start":4111.712,"end":4135.569,"text":"謝謝委員的意見這部分我想請我們單位的主管李組長來說明一下跟陳委員報告一下有關於剛才的那個核安一點通的那個創作者原子能委員會其實如果委員去看Android版的時候已經改過了但是iOS版因為我們屢次跟他改說要改成核安會他一直屢次要我們提供相關"},{"start":4136.369,"end":4163.46,"text":"為什麼核原能會可以改成核安會這部分我們還是持續在積極跟那個iOS的廠商在溝通另外委員講的沒錯這個APP的下載量確實比較低所以目前大概有13000所以目前我們就透過各種的方式包括我們科普展包括我們主理宣導包括我們防災演練等等的各種方式我們來鼓勵民眾下載另外跟NCDR就是國家防災"},{"start":4164.982,"end":4165.924,"text":"災害防救科技中心"},{"start":4176.483,"end":4180.446,"text":"委員要求核安會一定要做這個不過這個我們會持續的與時俱進看未來哪一種的宣導方法比較好我們會檢討經濟以上報告核安會評估過後如果你們覺得說這個APP其實你們還有個必要性再繼續的去維持它的話我是尊重的但是就是說請你們要如何就是說推廣你們的APP"},{"start":4199.199,"end":4200.18,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":4223.63,"end":4229.335,"text":"接下來要關心的是食品安全的部分近日屢屢傳出日本核災區的食品進口被檢驗出有輻射物質的殘留雖然都沒有超標也沒有進入我們談論市場這也是因為我們相關單位有積極的辦理食品的檢驗民眾才能夠安心的選購相關的商品"},{"start":4241.525,"end":4248.631,"text":"那尤其是在日本的8月底它寒川沸水開始排放之後民眾的疑慮會增加也會產生一些恐慌的現象像之前有這個搶購鹽的這個事情那所以說我們核安會這邊對相關核案的宣導是不是也是要再加強"},{"start":4257.219,"end":4260.382,"text":"再來我們核安會從1005年的時候編列大概有1600多萬及1300多萬在南部及北部有設置輻射災害檢驗分析備援實驗室從107年度開始受理檢驗兩個實驗室最大的檢驗量每年是3800件"},{"start":4276.334,"end":4279.397,"text":"但是實際總檢測的檢測量截至到今年兩個實驗室每年加起都沒有超過300件。大概我可以理解說這個當初設置這個備援實驗室主要就是說如果有緊急的狀況的時候緊急發生核子事故的時候能夠因應大量的食品農產品有需要做輻射的檢測。"},{"start":4296.676,"end":4317.786,"text":"但也不代表說那現在相安無事的時候平時就讓這些實驗室一些設備是閒置的尤其像剛提到說現在日本開始排放這個寒川沸水民眾其實很焦慮那為了不讓民眾恐慌其實我們是不是可以自己主動去擴大這個檢測讓民眾安心這個部分核安會你們有沒有考慮去訂立相關的方案好"},{"start":4318.847,"end":4337.669,"text":"謝謝委員的指教兩個備援實驗室我們總共有七個備援實驗室是在2011年福島發生災害之後我們要增加檢測的量能萬一發生核子事故的時候我們這兩個備援實驗室可以提供"},{"start":4338.37,"end":4357.739,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":4357.879,"end":4362.42,"text":"本席的意思就是說既然我們有這樣的設備我們不要讓它閒置那現在因為有日本的寒川沸水排放這個事情發生民眾對我們的食安有疑慮的時候其實我們是不是可以主動的去檢測相關的食品還是漁產品還是除了檢測海水之外其實我們對食物上我們可以讓民眾更安心那我們既然耗費了上千萬建置這樣的設備我們應該要物盡其用不要讓好的設備就這樣平時就是閒置著"},{"start":4387.69,"end":4402.708,"text":"請何安惠這邊你們可以去評估怎麼來協助民眾既然民眾對這個食品安全有疑慮那何安惠你們有設備是不是可以主動來協助是的那個我們這個一年的檢測量大概是七萬六百件"},{"start":4403.609,"end":4407.573,"text":"核安會所屬輻射偵測中心及國研院兩個實驗室提供檢測,抽檢的是食藥署,在邊境抽檢日本進口的樣品。"},{"start":4420.586,"end":4425.551,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":4447.605,"end":4447.945,"text":"黃國舒委員主席"},{"start":4487.754,"end":4495.482,"text":"當時在北部跟南部,北部就是國立陽明交通大學有建制北部輻射災害的一個"},{"start":4496.663,"end":4515.659,"text":"備援實驗室南部委託屏東科大這兩個實驗室這幾年來的成效我們在今天是預算所以我覺得我們需要來檢視一下有沒有投入一些經費有當時建制的經費北部是1687萬南部是1330萬當時的估算最大的檢驗量也就是說我們預期的它的檢驗量是3800件"},{"start":4525.947,"end":4540.452,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4540.834,"end":4568.005,"text":"那我們相較於我們國研院科技部的國研院近三年的檢測件數58934件的輻射偵測中心近三年檢驗數也5314件有非常大明顯的落差我們看到幾乎我們推動的這個北部實驗室跟南部的實驗室是為了要因應這個輻射災害的檢驗的"},{"start":4571.305,"end":4571.545,"text":"委員會主管核安會"},{"start":4601.499,"end":4619.369,"text":"那這個部分是不是可以請主委你說明一下如果我們沒有提出一些比較精進的作為我們預算給你的在明年度如果這些預算還是浪費掉了他可能還是一個文職管這非常可惜說明一下那個謝謝黃委員的指教"},{"start":4620.87,"end":4640.025,"text":"當初我們設立這個備援用意其實不是活商業的目的不是活量能原來的初衷但是這幾年我們這個量能其實是存在的有一些資料可能沒有完整的顯示我請廖組長"},{"start":4642.039,"end":4649.788,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":4663.483,"end":4663.503,"text":"檢測結果"},{"start":4693.203,"end":4700.61,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":4719.206,"end":4720.707,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":4738.559,"end":4756.752,"text":"前幾天我看到有總統候選人在跟工商業做談的時候跟企業界談台灣當然能源是一個很大的問題但他提到了希望在2035年核電佔比要過半那核四要重啟那核四重啟的可能性是什麼"},{"start":4757.432,"end":4759.594,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":4774.465,"end":4796.175,"text":"您們應該要把整個核四可不可能重啟那就核能安全把關者的角度來說明這個事情台電在2021年的時候有提出說明因為這個議題已經討論好多年了當時又提到了原廠人力解散系統太舊更新設備難以取得耐震程度需要提升以及原能會試轉"},{"start":4797.916,"end":4821.181,"text":"事運轉報告中還有32項待完成所以這個四大的因素是台電難以掌握的這難以掌握就不知道要幾年了但技術面要完成就是台電可以掌握的技術也要7年所以當時是說N加7年才有可能重啟核試當時這是台電的說法但當時也還沒有我們核安會的意見進來"},{"start":4822.461,"end":4851.018,"text":"好,最近又有提到了,想要重啟核試,之前的核試的廠長說投入300億,三、四年就可以重啟了。喔,是可以這樣嗎?那我想要請問一下,主委,可不可以跟我們講一下,以目前的狀況,核試還沒有完工,它的建造已經失效了,那一定要再重新申請建造吧,那不可以繼續興建作業嘛,除非你有新的建造。"},{"start":4851.818,"end":4870.947,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能"},{"start":4878.231,"end":4899.556,"text":"重啟核四的程序是什麼?那核安會你們要評估哪一些重點?謝謝委員核四在2020的12月建造已經屆滿所以現在假設要再重啟那當然除了社會共識之外那必須要再重新申請建造"},{"start":4900.276,"end":4915.802,"text":"adequa能源政策是國家的政策就其實不是核安會的業務的範圍那第三個核安會其實是以安全把關為最基本的要求"},{"start":4916.744,"end":4931.767,"text":"那麼剛才陳儒委員剛才提的我們有很多的事項需要檢視要重啟要安全評估老化評估更換設備更換零組件那麼還要跟原廠商來做協調"},{"start":4932.568,"end":4940.293,"text":"三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":4960.587,"end":4982.069,"text":"我請那個高組長高組長來有可能嗎跟委員報告確實如同剛才委員所說的事實上核四要重啟必須要面臨面臨很多事項要處理包括設備然後甚至地質調查這部分強化等等確實如果以現在來看三到四年確實有難度有難度確實有難度好"},{"start":4983.602,"end":4991.498,"text":"當然啦,從前核四每一次的總統大選都會變成是一個選戰的議題但是不管怎麼樣"},{"start":4992.987,"end":5020.128,"text":"我們要關切的是如果要重啓的話它必須經過什麼樣的程序因為我們核安會的主責範圍就是要讓所有的核電都是安全無虞的這個是我們的職責即便要重啓也必須要進行這些必要的審核的程序那核安會當然是要把關嘛那如果以你們把關者的角度3到4年當然是有難度的嘛其實幾乎是不可能嘛好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":5022.827,"end":5023.127,"text":"主席"},{"start":5040.41,"end":5067.801,"text":"主委長首先來跟主委聊聊就是說我們核安會的年度施政目標根據預算書這個核安會除了強化原子能安全管制之外還負有發展能源及後端技術推廣應用的責任那並且還要建立能源供應設施韌性的這個評估的能力那同時"},{"start":5070.623,"end":5091.719,"text":"審慎評估國際新世代的核能技術密切追蹤核融合商轉時程。雖然和安會對外展現的態度是讓我感覺你們就是一個聽命行事的單位對於國家未來能源發展沒有太多的意見"},{"start":5093.46,"end":5101.665,"text":"實際上針對我國的能源發展照理說核安會的專業判斷與意見應該還是要佔有一定的份量那還是說我國未來究竟要不要繼續發展核電有比核安會更專業的這個機關嗎在做判斷嗎又或者主委會認為說這個能源偵測其實沒有專業也無關科學就是所謂的政黨傾向"},{"start":5121.377,"end":5121.537,"text":"主委"},{"start":5151.857,"end":5156.701,"text":"總統參選人侯友宜甚至說當選總統後要致力讓核一、核二、核三在檢修無虞的情況下研議核四也要在專家的評估後如果沒問題也要再重啟"},{"start":5180.28,"end":5200.421,"text":"今天本席也不是說要求主委要回應侯友宜個人,而是要求說身為全民納稅人成立的這個核安會,我們當國家的主人,也就是說人民要用選票決定或影響能源政策的時候,掌握知識跟技術的核安會就有責任提供更完備的資訊讓大家來做參考。"},{"start":5203.024,"end":5207.688,"text":"核一廠已經在2019啟動為期25年的廚藝工作。核二廠一號機也已經在2021年停止運轉,進入了廚藝的階段。那核一廠的高階核廢料還在如新無法取出。那為什麼沒有辦法取出?因為取出之後沒有安全的空間可以放。"},{"start":5224.685,"end":5225.625,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":5249.233,"end":5276.507,"text":"再來我們看核二廠早在2015年臺電就向新北市政府申請核二乾煮工程的啟動所需的計畫可是始終沒有獲得同意導致乾煮無法興建結果同樣是核廢料無法放置反應爐也無法更換燃料核二廠的一號機甚至已經提早半年停機不但核廢料"},{"start":5277.747,"end":5301.292,"text":"不要核廢料,那可是要核電,這個其實,請問現在主委啦,就是說現在有這樣的一個發電方式嗎?的確那個核一、核二、核三面臨很諸多的問題,那麼委員剛才都提到了,那麼這些是一些細節,那如果要具體他都要面對的問題。"},{"start":5302.432,"end":5332.432,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":5335.073,"end":5349.318,"text":"現階段我國核電廠是不是已經進入廚藝階段?即將進入廚藝階段。如果未來真的被要求要研議,就核能安全的面向來看,核安會會給出什麼樣的建議?"},{"start":5355.12,"end":5370.777,"text":"剛才委員提到的那個室內乾除核一跟核二廠一個是117年一個是118年現在是在就是他們的規劃的階段那麼室內乾除其實是較具有社會共識"},{"start":5372.259,"end":5383.785,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":5391.949,"end":5409.723,"text":"中國的核電產業近年來是迅速在發展。依照這個國際原子能總署最新的資料顯示目前中國有55個運轉中的機組有21個新建中的機組而且大多落於沿海的地方"},{"start":5410.884,"end":5434.921,"text":"這些核電機組對於台灣的潛在風險就是發生核災事故的時候可能飄散到我國境內的輻射層。為了確保國人安全並且在事故發生的時候要第一時間掌握中國核電廠的狀況所以過去的原能會其實在2011年有跟中國簽署了一個"},{"start":5436.742,"end":5456.428,"text":"海峽兩岸核電安全合作協議。希望能透過雙方在各自核電兩方事故時可以盡到相互通報的義務。最近一次的通報測試在上個月的13日。不過日常演練是一回事,真的問題發生又是一回事,尤其我們面對的是像中國這樣的一個國家。"},{"start":5458.308,"end":5463.511,"text":"主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會"},{"start":5485.982,"end":5508.73,"text":"真的沒有在核子事故的發生的初期跟我們通報那核安會在無預警的狀態之下有怎麼樣的作為能夠確保說臺灣依舊能夠在恰當的時間內做出反應主委好那個謝謝近外核災主要是以原子程為主要的考慮因為我們畢竟隔了一個海"},{"start":5509.77,"end":5512.611,"text":"二、審查二、審查三、審查四、審查五、審查六、審查七、審查八、審查十、審查十、"},{"start":5538.405,"end":5540.406,"text":"委員會主管核子事故"},{"start":5553.65,"end":5556.792,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":5583.61,"end":5593.338,"text":"完全正確好好好謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝委員好謝謝林益錦委員接下來謝謝主委接下來有請鄭麗文委員謝謝謝謝主席請主委有請主委謝謝"},{"start":5608.282,"end":5608.442,"text":"政委員長。"},{"start":5614.482,"end":5618.545,"text":"主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會"},{"start":5641.504,"end":5647.825,"text":"資訊平台執行經費609萬9千元112年度優化正式啟用經費513萬元總共1122萬9千元但是如果你進去想要去了解核廢水點進去之後它還要跳到你們的官網然後我如果要了解相關檢測的品項、數量、膚色、含量等等你還要再進一步的去下載這個檔案"},{"start":5670.93,"end":5699.599,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5699.918,"end":5714.861,"text":"所以第一個我的要求請你們要把這個網頁做好不要就是交差了事好嗎第二個就是有關於這個核廢水的這個平台大家都知道對漁業的影響非常大"},{"start":5715.362,"end":5715.562,"text":"檢查檢查檢查"},{"start":5731.048,"end":5739.792,"text":"這個也是交差了事的我都覺得非常的離譜跟誇張第一個我們沒有當天即時監測的資訊而是呢根據監測的結果進行預測而且預測是一周的模擬預測"},{"start":5747.716,"end":5767.567,"text":"如何讓漁民知道可以如何的善用你們的預測系統然後根據你們的預測系統來決定他的出海另外如何又能夠確保我們台灣相關的水產品的安全呢你這個東西很明顯的是交差了事你看日本 主委"},{"start":5769.315,"end":5786.517,"text":"日本市在港口的部分每10分鐘它就更新一次最新的監測的結果東京電力是每一天都公告他們有關的不管是在海水、井水、儲水槽、管線、空氣中所有的輻射監測"},{"start":5788.976,"end":5812.05,"text":"那麼有關於海水監測的部分我再講一次那人家日本每10分鐘就可以更新一次啊我們是多久做一次做一次還可以頂未來的一個禮拜那這不是交差了是應付一下而已嗎你覺得漁民會對我們的監測有信心嗎那感覺上也並沒有把這件事情很當一回事就是有做就好了啦"},{"start":5812.91,"end":5813.31,"text":"議員主席議員主席"},{"start":5832.193,"end":5856.476,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5857.952,"end":5860.775,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":5873.889,"end":5875.15,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":5892.786,"end":5899.168,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":5922.093,"end":5947.979,"text":"報告委員就是有關於這10分鐘日本的10分鐘監測是即時的一個他的一個出海出水口的一個計量率的一個監測那他每天因為為了要快速的資料知道他們出水口所以有一個快速的分析方法每天公告那隨著距離越來越遠因為因為海水的一個稀釋越來越遠所以我們大家都是用一個定期一個平次的一個概念"},{"start":5948.379,"end":5949.84,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":5967.403,"end":5972.904,"text":"二、審查113年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":5992.288,"end":5999.011,"text":"我們總共這個核廢水裡頭所含的放射性物質有九種那為什麼我們只監測七種"},{"start":6005.696,"end":6007.077,"text":"為什麼沒有碳14跟1129?為什麼沒有碳14跟1129?"},{"start":6029.033,"end":6031.294,"text":"委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全"},{"start":6055.623,"end":6072.588,"text":"會殘留在人體的骨骼、牙齒、甲狀腺、肌肉當中幾十年造成更大的輻射劑量這都是BBC的報導那為什麼我們漏掉了碳14跟碳129可不可以補進去呢?好,了解那個委員的問題非常好跟委員報告"},{"start":6074.688,"end":6093.319,"text":"核廢水經過ALPS系統,它沒有辦法過濾的主要剩下兩種,一個是氚、一個是碳-14。但是碳-14在排到外面的時候,排到海裡面的時候,它已經低於安全標準的十分之一,日本安全標準。"},{"start":6094.119,"end":6120.585,"text":"但是這個川沒有辦法經過它是稀釋之後才排到海裡面所以我們主要的觀點是在看這個川的含量那委員剛才提到其他幾個放射性的元素那麼其實我們在境外的海域金門、馬祖還有這個黑潮的流域的地方我們都有做一些檢測"},{"start":6121.666,"end":6137.348,"text":"為什麼你們的檢測跟綠色和平的檢測不一樣?綠色和平的檢測就是說針對福島核廢水裡頭的放射性物質他發現除了你剛講的氚之外裡面碳14跟碳129他們都有發現還有其他的部分"},{"start":6138.72,"end":6165.869,"text":"報告委員因為綠色和平組織調查報告這一個他是一開始是初始是分析日本的那個排放所可能含有的所有的一個核種並沒有考慮到他實際殘存過濾以後的一個核種的濃度所以你們就是假設說他過濾以後這些都已經過濾完成了不可能殘存我們在源頭所以就不用所以就不用再去測試那萬一他沒有過濾乾淨呢"},{"start":6167.298,"end":6185.423,"text":"瞭解瞭解這個部分齁其實我們主要還是所以日本人說什麼他說這個東西很安全所以你們覺得這個東西很安全其他就不用測了那這那你這說這個檢測不就是做給我們安人心的而已嗎沒有這個主要還那我們就是當然就是懷疑說那萬一他沒有過濾乾淨怎麼辦呢"},{"start":6187.974,"end":6208.82,"text":"這個部分主要這個有國際原子能總署IEA他有進駐到核電廠日本核電廠那麼他有一個獨立的第三方的公正單位在做一些檢視我還有一個問題請問一下那既然譬如說我們看日本的報告日本的海水環境省下一頁"},{"start":6210.589,"end":6237.347,"text":"他們檢測到了有7種的放射性物質。所以呢日本就分別在今年的5月、今年的9月都公布說他們在海水當中監測到了7種物質。那為什麼我們台灣呢只公布兩種呢?而不把你所監測到的都公布出來呢?我請徐主任那個輻射中心主任"},{"start":6238.427,"end":6257.176,"text":"您們是已經先設建材劃靶嗎?我是跟委員報告因為日本是事故國它的放射性核種的濃度會比較高所以它測得到那我們是在離日本有2000公里的海面上所以剛剛委員講的這七種設134、設137還有106、125、60、90、129這些我們這邊其實大概量測出來的結果都是小於最低可測值是測不到的"},{"start":6267.501,"end":6267.621,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":6285.124,"end":6312.826,"text":"那太好了如果是這樣子的話主委那你們應該要積極爭取啊不應該漏掉這兩個元素的探測嘛我們當然支持啊不然的話你這個漏掉這兩個你這個報告根本就是我們怎麼能夠安心呢這個東西很重要啊你不能跟我講說喔日本他的那邊應該沒問題我們的國際原子能總署有派人在那邊什麼什麼的那你就是不然那我們就根本連測都不用測了嘛如果是這樣"},{"start":6314.447,"end":6330.359,"text":"這也太天真了吧那我們當然就是要測到說我們今天在我們台灣環海的這些海域裡頭到底是不是安全的我們漁民在我們作業捕撈的這些海水裡面有沒有受到污染欸他們抓的魚回來我們通通都要吃的欸開什麼玩笑啊那最後一個問題啦齁就是在我們核安會的這個服務小站這上面呢寫的這個東西呢"},{"start":6342.045,"end":6362.15,"text":"我不知道主委你有沒有看這個東西完全就是在幫日本宣傳嘛我們有必要這樣嗎我們的態度是為國人的安全把關是為我們的海域的安全環保把關而不是在那邊講說日本做得多好又多好所以絕對沒有問題"},{"start":6364.571,"end":6369.315,"text":"二、審查123年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預。"},{"start":6377.931,"end":6400.246,"text":"所以我們在台灣所有的把關都是形式上的都是做安心的做交代的虛晃一招讓我們這些擔心的人閉嘴的嗎這態度跟基本立場的出發就太偏移了吧太歪樓了吧我們不應該是去幫日本講話嘛而是站在我們台灣的"},{"start":6402.047,"end":6430.927,"text":"國家利益的角度人民食安的角度漁民的生計的角度做好把關的角色你可以說我們做了哪些哪些你怎麼會我們的臉書說日本做了哪些哪些所以大家要安心呢你這是日本人的網站日本人的臉書還是台灣人的臉書啊莫名其妙立刻下架馬上更改啊不然你們小編是日本派來的嗎是日本政府派來的嗎"},{"start":6432.767,"end":6459.556,"text":"謝謝委員的指教那這個部分我們回去馬上檢視那麼會做一些修正那麼剛剛委員提到這個網頁設計那個河岸一點通APP相關因為我自己上網過我有去做check我其實可以看到所有的資訊那麼會後我想我請我們同仁即便在手機現在我就可以展示給各位看不是他可以看得到但是你們的設計"},{"start":6461.056,"end":6463.399,"text":"主委,你是主委啊,你是博士欸,你是一般的漁民要怎麼去看,你懂我的意思嗎?他當然看得到,我不是說他看不到,而是你們的設計實在是很不方便,對一般的使用者來講,這真的很困難。"},{"start":6483.519,"end":6483.619,"text":"陳培余委員"},{"start":6511.534,"end":6511.734,"text":"主席"},{"start":6522.113,"end":6543.159,"text":"那我想我們就今天非常多委員都提到了關於這個那我們想要跟主委來聊一聊關於核安福安科普的事情喔其實在這個核安會裡面呢有非常非常多的訊息其實真的需要持續跟全民積極的溝通讓大家可以更安心這件事情我相信主委您也是高度認同那我們來看一下其實在你們的業務報告當中有提到"},{"start":6545.52,"end":6575.52,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6575.6,"end":6579.443,"text":"一年兩次的頻率是固定的,那110年當時三次的原因是因為?"},{"start":6606.744,"end":6630.287,"text":"跟委員報告當然如果有特殊的狀況委員隨時可以邀請我就是邀集召開來召開會議所以臨時會議而我們全民參與委員會這個會議最重要的目的就是就教於各界對我們在宣導溝通上面的方法或是方式或是這個管道有什麼建議事項都歡迎委員給我們這個指教"},{"start":6630.928,"end":6647.706,"text":"以上就是相關委員會裡面的委員嗎但是我相信這個除了這個學者專家其實還有社會溝通人士社運人士就是所謂的專家學者社會公正人士或者是民間團體代表擔任這個全民參與委員會的委員嗎其實我們有看相關的報告"},{"start":6652.11,"end":6673.946,"text":"我們是想要建議啦除了您剛剛說原本是訂定一年兩次但是我相信不管是這個寒川廢水的事情或者是剛剛有非常多委員提到核電廠核廢料的事情是不是你們有機會內部考慮跟討論是不是要增加它的頻率跟密度讓大家在這件事情上可以有更多的共識跟討論的機會那促進跟全民溝通的部分"},{"start":6674.266,"end":6679.928,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":6700.317,"end":6728.871,"text":"委員會你們這邊在介入性血管診療手術裡面所使用的心導管還有血管攝影用的X光機上次我也跟主委請教過你們在今年喔特別把這兩件事情納入相關的品保作業那我相信是不是要開始你們是不是開始要為相關的醫護人員或是相對的病患做出更重要更謹慎的這個相關的健康狀況的追蹤所以你們才會把這個納入今年的業務報告我們可不可以請你們說明一下"},{"start":6729.511,"end":6744.317,"text":"的確這個部分其實是在我們核安會在民生用途上面裡面非常重要的一個業務特別對於不同的SCALE不同等級的醫療院所"},{"start":6745.037,"end":6746.658,"text":"衛生委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":6766.974,"end":6773.307,"text":"預計如何進行這個相關健康狀況的追蹤可不可以請你們說明一下讓大家可以更放心我請張組長來做一些說明胡方主張組長"},{"start":6777.626,"end":6777.686,"text":"衛生局局長"},{"start":6799.339,"end":6809.771,"text":"衛生來去做實際臨床上的一個溝通不要再不要因為我們推動這個平保暴露進而去干預到了醫生的一個醫療行為醫療行為對我相信這樣的專業溝通對話應該是不會有任何問題"},{"start":6814.156,"end":6815.816,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":6832.261,"end":6839.307,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":6857.102,"end":6860.286,"text":"而核安會在核安會所做的所有事情包括一、在國內進行輻射防護法精進的相關研究一、追蹤國際上法規修正的動態一、在111年至112年相關業務也預告要擬定修正相關防護法草案。"},{"start":6876.824,"end":6897.937,"text":"甚至在112年的6月核安會你們自己也說要進行相關法規修正的預告作業可是目前我們在這份新的業務報告裡面完全沒有看到這個部分的進度也沒有看到送進立法院的院版草案可是你們在來年的預算裡面還是編了一個新的四年期的1500萬的預算所以我們想要請主委說明一下相關執法修正的進度跟目前規劃的內容跟方向"},{"start":6903.32,"end":6924.913,"text":"我的了解這個案子我們明年就是現在113年底明年初會送到立法院來請各位委員指教那麼主要有一些精神第一個符合國際的趨勢那第二個呢我們增加了一些罰款的條件那麼總共修了大概14條是不是"},{"start":6926.474,"end":6926.994,"text":"主席吳思瑤委員"},{"start":6957.915,"end":6959.249,"text":"介主席請主委"},{"start":6964.341,"end":6984.93,"text":"吳委員早吳委員早大家辛苦大家早安那原能會改制成為核安會核研所也成為國原院而且行政法人化了所以本期期待我們不只在核安管制上甚至在原子能相關科技的民生應用的發展都應當更有力都應當更升級"},{"start":6988.271,"end":6995.145,"text":"所以今天我針對核一製藥中心的一些長期應當改革的問題就交於主委。好,下一頁。"},{"start":6996.543,"end":7004.845,"text":"首先當然我們用原子能科技來研發核一藥物我們已經成立了26年的核一製藥中心那是台灣唯一一個具規模而且合法能夠供應核一藥物的政府機構那當然他們扮演了非常重要的角色能夠抑制長期都依賴國外進口我們能夠發揮在地生產的優勢下一頁"},{"start":7023.169,"end":7047.147,"text":"但是我從2020年3年前我就提出了改革核醫藥物中心的四支箭不外乎要去解決它設備老化的問題解決它因為人員離退人力短缺以至於核心技術的這些卡關當然更重要的是它的產能利用率低那到底要怎麼改變"},{"start":7048.548,"end":7071.979,"text":"今年這一次我今天站在這裡是這個屆期最後一次就教於您也是審議預算的期間所以我們要逐一來檢視喔下一個首先第一個這應當是思堯率先在立法院大力協助我們原能會來爭取的我們要採購最新型的70MVV迴旋加速器"},{"start":7072.899,"end":7090.408,"text":"我原本很開心我審議預算的時候也都提案幫助大家編列預算國會支持可是我赫然發現不是只有採購啦他還有相關研究室的建制昨天剛開標完成我們研究室建制的標案是嗎那這樣的話我"},{"start":7094.814,"end":7116.462,"text":"應該是昨天開標完成吧?我的資訊?土建的部分那到底整個完成建制土建、基電、迴旋加速器、同位素研製、量子照護、照射實驗室、中子應用實驗室跟系統工程加起來我收集的資料是還至少要在3年半也就是2027年"},{"start":7118.903,"end":7124.168,"text":"是需要這麼久嗎?加速器是加速器啊!要加速啊!這有一點複雜度"},{"start":7129.497,"end":7132.619,"text":"委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管"},{"start":7149.531,"end":7150.431,"text":"委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":7170.959,"end":7176.405,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":7187.698,"end":7208.15,"text":"協助你們需要外援就外援因為畢竟還需要工程專家那我期待啦當然越快越好為什麼呢下一頁因為現有的機組30年了嘛雖然去年在疫情期間因為國外的進口不順利所以我們確實在這幾年稅休就是說這幾年就是讓他的產能是2.25倍"},{"start":7212.392,"end":7213.373,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":7232.343,"end":7254.822,"text":"國人的健康需要救急救命的還要再等三、四個月所以如果新的機器的建置、土建、研究室的facility還需要時間那麼現有機組就應當協助他扮演足夠的產能、產量的功能下一頁那尤其核一精準"},{"start":7256.015,"end":7276.049,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7276.049,"end":7278.61,"text":"二、審查123年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會"},{"start":7305.871,"end":7313.32,"text":"所以他不斷的稅休不斷的停機也不斷的要設備更新30年的老機器那到底怎麼辦呢"},{"start":7315.15,"end":7335.755,"text":"主委我希望聽到好消息他有不同階段的任務啦我的理解30mEV是過去的階段他的作用在於就是detection就是說來檢測70mEV他有精準醫療的功能"},{"start":7336.075,"end":7339.518,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":7357.551,"end":7381.032,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7381.152,"end":7400.872,"text":"其實MVP事實上在國外義大利有個相同機組它蓋了7年去年我去參訪已經11年了還沒辦法如期運轉所以我們當時是配合國人的需求我們把這個整個時程壓縮到4年目前的進程應該是還可以有機會如期如遲完成"},{"start":7401.573,"end":7406.398,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":7421.215,"end":7439.495,"text":"二十六%後來承諾立法院逐年要降低到12、13%現在故障率到去年前年都是大概10%左右所以現在可控了今年目前為止的故障率大概只有5%以下那我手上的資料你看這張圖表2022年它的停機次數到21次"},{"start":7441.277,"end":7449.279,"text":"主要基組件已經更換好了,現在我們可以看到這幾年就相對的它的產能的利用率就會提升了。好,那我非常期待從您嘴上得到您口中得到這樣的正面的消息好嗎?"},{"start":7467.142,"end":7489.923,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":7490.023,"end":7490.964,"text":"二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":7507.367,"end":7528.479,"text":"很難很難讓我接受啊這個我們分五年會逐年把人力補齊前面補了兩年還不夠今年年底我們會因為國研院有一個機制就是行政法人我們可以公開招募所以我我們同位數應用組會補足9個今年馬上年底1月1號就可以補足9位員工"},{"start":7529.979,"end":7552.691,"text":"續連我們會把這個42人全部補齊。謝謝院長說明,那就善用行政法人的優勢。我期待增補人力,真的不要讓我們再等下去。來主委綜合回覆。謝謝那個高院長,其實也是70MEV的總計畫主持人。他對這個案子非常的了解,那麼也做很多的努力。"},{"start":7553.371,"end":7557.633,"text":"二、審查212年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":7581.262,"end":7581.282,"text":"陳委員"},{"start":7601.863,"end":7621.361,"text":"主委好我想今天有關於核安的這個相關的預算跟業務的審查那我想上次見到主委的時候就討論到核安很重要的就是要來保障我們民眾的核安福安的安全更重要要能夠發展原子能民生的相關的用途"},{"start":7622.502,"end":7624.503,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":7642.913,"end":7645.394,"text":"二、審查113年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":7662.222,"end":7678.677,"text":"當他把這個核廢水排到海裡的時候對我們台灣的安全上面會不會有疑慮啊但是雖然我們都這樣子做了齁上次這個也非常的肯定我們跨部會共同就有建置了這個公開的平台"},{"start":7680.278,"end":7701.887,"text":"公開平台除了核安會外外交部、交通部、衛福部、農業部、海委會、國科會這些共同都要來做這些資訊的公開很期待就是我剛剛講的希望能夠避免不了解的民眾對這個部分的誤解也不會發生前一陣子在那邊"},{"start":7703.167,"end":7714.114,"text":"買食鹽對不對然後這個搶購一些的海鮮告訴哪些的海鮮是能夠是不能夠買的我雖然覺得政府都有在做但是我們的宣導是不是真的能夠去避免民眾這邊的一個誤解或者是假消息的傳遞我覺得這個是最重要的特別是你看我說日本從2011年到現在大家都還是這麼關心"},{"start":7732.345,"end":7759.94,"text":"雖然他都已經告訴我們說他的這個寒川的廢量排放量相較於這些其他的國家都還是比較低的情況之下大家都還是這麼擔心但是我相信是剛剛林一金委員也有提到其實我們更應該要擔心的是我們鄰近的這一些壞鄰居包括中國他現在運轉中的就有55個"},{"start":7761.261,"end":7772.19,"text":"新建中的就有21個而且都是在沿海地區然後再加上中國過去的reputation實在太糟糕了很多東西都隱瞞不公開就光這些疫情"},{"start":7776.374,"end":7800.538,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7803.124,"end":7830.21,"text":"這個我再理解一下齁但是我跟委員報告齁境外核災第一件事情我們100年福島發生以後我們跟中國大陸有一個兩岸的所以這個就福島之後做了對然後第二個我們其實是密切、頻繁、定期在做聯絡剛才我提到河安監管中心它是一個單一管道的聯絡窗口24小時第二個我們"},{"start":7832.076,"end":7857.245,"text":"台灣整個有120座固定式的環境輻射監測站。我知道,剛剛我都坐在那個全程廳,就是相關的監控我們都有。那我剛剛的問題是對於這樣子的一個guideline,該徵修的就要徵修,譬如說我們現在又有海委會,我們的環保署也都改制變成環境署了,它相關的角色功能,我相信這些組織都需要再做澄清啦,好不好?"},{"start":7857.745,"end":7860.267,"text":"護理人員人數優勢在社區可靜性Nurses can help!"},{"start":7880.959,"end":7882.42,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":7903.099,"end":7931.721,"text":"護舍治療用在醫療用途的時候這些對於我們護理人員的教育並不是足夠比如說我們就被問到說我有這些鼓掃描我懷孕中的太太可不可以來對不起護理人員也懷孕了這些東西其實對於相關的資訊我們並沒有很充分的宣導當然我們核安會其實有在前身有出了這個醫療院所護舍安全安心手冊對不起也是已經out of date了"},{"start":7932.361,"end":7934.462,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":7949.531,"end":7966.476,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7966.894,"end":7970.276,"text":"二、審查123年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":7983.726,"end":8006.863,"text":"此政策完全都是天馬行空,做不到的事情。我不曉得核安會會不會來做解釋。我看過了很多的,譬如說像我們中研院,就很棒啊。它雖然其實都是他們自己院內的演講啊什麼,它就可以拍成YouTube,而且它的流量都非常的高。而且你知道嗎,它的宣傳費用一年才28萬而已。"},{"start":8008.524,"end":8037.15,"text":"但是我們的核安會,我們現在的YouTube也有!抱歉,你知道流量多少嗎?你有做相關的解釋嗎?所以我要講的就是這些而已。好,謝謝委員的指教。第一個,有關於全民溝通這些部分,我們會來精進。第二個,醫護人員這個部分,我們做了很大的努力,基本上就是維護醫療環境的安全,醫護人員的安全。"},{"start":8038.257,"end":8039.558,"text":"委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核"},{"start":8051.878,"end":8055.299,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":8084.632,"end":8105.011,"text":"主委,我們快速的問題,時間有限。我想前面也有委員在催詢,不過我們再簡單講一下。這個COP28明天就開了,法國還要邀請40個核能國家入列,說希望全球核能產量要翻三倍,應該是這樣講。"},{"start":8106.733,"end":8120.802,"text":"我們現在這個我只問一個最簡單的事就是說現在我們還是很繼續就是用這個非核家園政策走到底嗎我們要不要為這種東西做一些準備呢就是說其實這個我在其他地方也一直執行過"},{"start":8122.563,"end":8145.527,"text":"到底我們這個核融核的這個發展要不要有策略?或者是說是不是也應該要有甚至這種跟這個有關的甚至核能的這個政策的白皮書?還是說我們就是反正堅持就是廢核走到底了?那另外您看其實像你看美國他們其實事實上也會這個提出這個核融核的商轉策略就是說我們到底要不要"},{"start":8147.114,"end":8152.579,"text":"對這個地方還是說我們乾脆就走到底,反正核能跟我們是無關的。主委。好,那個謝謝張委員。"},{"start":8155.532,"end":8179.182,"text":"首先,能源政策其實是經濟部在主責,是我們國家的政策。那麼核安會其實是守住bottom line,安全。所以這個部分其實是我們專業在把關。那這是第一點。那第二點,核融合,那麼這個是一個最近的非常熱門、悉心的國際研究的課題。"},{"start":8180.522,"end":8183.463,"text":"三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":8205.856,"end":8228.381,"text":"我覺得說未來的這個趨勢要是真的而且我坦白講要核融合等這些新的技術要是真的成熟了也許他真的就沒有廢料了等等或者說他這個這些可以解決的話這也符合這個陳建仁院長講的嗎如果這樣的話那這也算綠電了我的理解現在離真正的上場我知道啦距離很遙遠非常遙遠但是我們如果都不R&D的話也不行嗎當然"},{"start":8234.062,"end":8237.803,"text":"二、審查112年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會"},{"start":8259.949,"end":8270.035,"text":"三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":8288.285,"end":8289.286,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":8312.642,"end":8320.351,"text":"三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":8330.442,"end":8343.989,"text":"專業該怎麼做該怎麼審查該怎麼check可疑的地方老舊零件對阿這個至關重要啦那個主委因為你們就是要把關安全的所以我們才說這種所謂緊急就可以拿來用這個也不合理啦這個真的要講清楚啦好不好"},{"start":8344.569,"end":8356.44,"text":"因為我們認為是也要有制度面的甚至要配套面那主委我再直接往下但這個問題前面有幾位委員問我就很快速的還是再簡單講就是說我們這個六佛化幼這件事其實當時我看新聞我能調到了從2017當時是執政黨才開始執政的時候就說兩年內他就要處理掉後來就2018的時候說那下週簽約"},{"start":8369.312,"end":8373.384,"text":"現在我們說要出去本來預定已經延宕到你看11"},{"start":8375.674,"end":8404.394,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8404.614,"end":8405.135,"text":"高院長回答"},{"start":8422.199,"end":8440.929,"text":"報告委員,這個UF6事實上可以回溯到40年前,40多年前我們在研究核燃料反應器核燃料的技術的時候從法國跟美國進口對我知道歷史我們都知道現在也比較運不出去那你好好用它有沒有可能因為它是一個比較複雜的"},{"start":8442.29,"end":8468.13,"text":"主核物甚至三個桶裡面有一個桶比較複雜所以會有一些安全上的顧慮所以本來今年年底就要運出去但是這些顧慮在經過英國的產家來特別...我知道我們剛剛上面都有寫是所以將來是不是要用因為這是用過的一些UXX混雜了一些其他的東西並不適合第四代如果第四代有這個需要我們應該再去買新的買不同的嗎?"},{"start":8468.49,"end":8472.233,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":8490.23,"end":8490.49,"text":"核轉換是否有前瞻性?"},{"start":8507.421,"end":8509.884,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":8527.123,"end":8541.755,"text":"核轉換事實上是ADS的技術就是我們把百分之百的廢料事實上百分之九十五可以透過核轉換把一些常伴衰期的超過千年萬年轉換成500年到100年以下這個計畫在我70MVB裡面有"},{"start":8546.078,"end":8563.137,"text":"有部分的經會在支持繼續要研究核轉換我先期的計畫前兩年也是有所以我六年來就是前三年到後三年都會有趨勢研究這方面希望這個是但是他因為要蓋這個反應器subcritical reactor我們估計要花600億"},{"start":8564.138,"end":8565.56,"text":"三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":8582.339,"end":8608.702,"text":"讓這件事未來下一代的可能可以更精進的話那我們就多做一點好那最後好再30秒就結束了好請院長現在我再請教一個問題這個最近你看美國他們對空軍飛行員都有研究這種游離輻射的影響最近哈佛大學有出來他們是對空服員這個我們好像我們對我們自己有沒有這個這個核安會有沒有想過這件事"},{"start":8609.042,"end":8611.645,"text":"國人航空從業人員年平均12至3毫西弗每年,低於國際"},{"start":8625.083,"end":8629.465,"text":"三、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":8646.714,"end":8646.874,"text":"范雲委員質詢"},{"start":8677.125,"end":8677.346,"text":"主席"},{"start":8684.995,"end":8708.669,"text":"主委早安我首先要請問主委關於核廢料就是台電跟新北之間的爭議那因為核一核二廠用過的核子燃料棒數早就已經超過燃料池可儲存的容量那如果沒有中期的儲存設施的話會導致燃料棒無法轉移甚至留在爐心無法移出"},{"start":8709.329,"end":8711.871,"text":"禁止核一、核二廠室外竿組設施的水保相關計劃,一直被新北市政府阻撓,然後纏送至今。我們看到長達10年的徵送,台電最近勝訴,"},{"start":8724.458,"end":8732.942,"text":"新北也決定不要上訴所以請問主委可是現在他們的新爭議是台電跟新北市政府要不要重送計畫還沒有定論就是台電認為依照這個判決不用重送計畫可是我們新北市政府卻認為說這個計畫已經預期要求他提展言"},{"start":8747.93,"end":8757.28,"text":"主委,您是核安的主管機關,您有沒有積極協調各方,儘速啟動室外竿組設施的建置呢?"},{"start":8762.686,"end":8785.002,"text":"與新北市政府因訴訟卡關其實都是一贏一輸各打50大板這個僵局就在那個地方那現在不是新北已經說不上訴了新聞是這樣寫的台電勝訴它的部分它其實是有兩個issue我會再跟委員做一些說明這一個部分將來我們希望"},{"start":8790.197,"end":8791.598,"text":"委員會主管核子事故緊急應變"},{"start":8807.133,"end":8809.035,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":8834.835,"end":8840.739,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":8855.249,"end":8860.031,"text":"主委,您認為現在無法預期什麼時候要建制?現在是不大容易說。您覺得這個拖延的責任是在哪一方?"},{"start":8881.378,"end":8882.779,"text":"主要是兩方都有各自自己的立場"},{"start":8899.19,"end":8901.251,"text":"委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":8917.498,"end":8925.703,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":8939.012,"end":8949.084,"text":"否則這個核安就是說沒有辦法儘速啟動室外竿組設施的話建置的話反而讓大家就是說可能承擔更大的風險這樣沒錯吧沒錯那個謝謝委員建議我們會來努力謝謝"},{"start":8953.629,"end":8972.358,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究"},{"start":8983.123,"end":9010.579,"text":"可是現在就是說它的就是核廢水排放之後並還沒有組團過去對不對有有有已經組團過去了我等一下再說說明就日本排放核處理水後台灣已經有組團過去了是的好那這樣子那你們有跟日方溝通爭取就是我們一起能夠有更多的資訊共享嗎"},{"start":9011.639,"end":9013.04,"text":"主管核能安全委員會"},{"start":9026.627,"end":9039.337,"text":"二、審查113年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查113年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查113年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":9048.544,"end":9050.507,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":9066.088,"end":9066.909,"text":"委員會主管核廢水排放資訊。"},{"start":9088.687,"end":9102.964,"text":"我們核安會是不是也能夠爭取雖然不能跟他們一起去可不可以進行相關的資訊共享跟IAEA我們的網頁其實就有最新的IAEA相關的資訊的報導"},{"start":9104.406,"end":9128.313,"text":"另外我們會裡面有駐外人員除了其他地方之外也有包含日本所以我們會得到第一手的資料就是跟委員報告所以我們在資訊上不會比南韓慢就對了不會主委那這個承諾非常好我想這是大家關心的事情那我知道2021年我們主委就已經對日本排核處理稅提出三大訴求"},{"start":9129.133,"end":9154.535,"text":"那這三大訴求可不可以請問何安慧據說結果目前是情況如何都有達到嗎是的我想就是第一個就是掌握源頭啦掌握源頭第二個全面監測強力的監測第三個就是擴散預報第四個資訊共享就是讓全民都知道那這個其實是我們最重要的四個主軸所以這些訴求都有達到"},{"start":9155.336,"end":9184.699,"text":"是的,我們一些細節可以再給委員知道。好,那謝謝主委,因為就是說我們並沒有看到完整的資訊,所以是不是請核安會針對核廢料的處置,如何更積極的協調,提出解方,還有輔導和處理水排放的部分,如何積極的國際合作加強資訊共享,不落後其他的國家的部分,那給我們辦公室一個報告好嗎?沒有問題。那一個月內可以嗎?"},{"start":9185.399,"end":9185.479,"text":"請主委"},{"start":9214.366,"end":9216.067,"text":"陳委員好主委好主委就是福島核災經過了12年那日本東京電力公司今年6月所發布的報告表示在福島第一核電廠港灣內捕獲到的"},{"start":9237.725,"end":9256.68,"text":"海水於體內不但輻射值超標而輻射元素色的含量也達到每千克1.8萬倍克那超過了日本食品衛生法所規定標準的180倍"},{"start":9258.757,"end":9283.253,"text":"所以民間對於核廢水的疑慮並不是沒有依據的所以應該持續監測主委你說是不是的確是以科學的標準參照國際的原則國際的標準那麼細節這個部分其實我們會裡面是有一些核研所我們核安會"},{"start":9284.534,"end":9311.554,"text":"有掌握到什麼嗎?有,我請張組長來做說明細節的部分。報告委員我們也掌握了就是日本當地的這個福島周邊他們有檢測到韓社的一個超標。那我們在這一次的一個日本跟台日之間的核安的一個資訊交流我們也特別有交流。那掌握到的資訊可以給本席跟我們教文委員會嗎?"},{"start":9312.295,"end":9312.495,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":9327.867,"end":9329.028,"text":"議員主席議員主席議員主席"},{"start":9351.029,"end":9374.687,"text":"其實日本有很多民間單位設置輻射監測的儀器那人民可以進行檢測讓社會安心那前一陣子我們有民眾送樣品到民間的檢測中心要求做痊癒檢測痊癒檢測就是包括骨頭尤其我們知道"},{"start":9375.247,"end":9402.619,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9403.8,"end":9421.637,"text":"獲實能夠做到民眾的需求。這個部分其實主要是兩個研究室檢測的地方一個是國研院一個是我們輻射政策中心在高雄這邊提到的交通陽明大學這個部分他們其實是做"},{"start":9422.678,"end":9423.119,"text":"實品安全檢測。"},{"start":9440.174,"end":9440.855,"text":"檢驗實驗室由本來的一家變成三家"},{"start":9456.633,"end":9457.033,"text":"好,我們瞭解"},{"start":9487.025,"end":9490.769,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家"},{"start":9506.667,"end":9507.988,"text":"檢測核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管"},{"start":9535.605,"end":9546.21,"text":"我們核安會其實過去有注意到這個新聞那麼過去也有相關的案例那麼福芳組張組長他可以做一些比較"},{"start":9548.078,"end":9568.647,"text":"主委可不可以核安會去蒐集坊間的然後做檢測然後把就是去識別化是哪一家然後能夠有一些檢測的這個數據讓民眾了解這個如果有過高的輻射值可以加強宣傳"},{"start":9569.907,"end":9572.15,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":9587.15,"end":9609.421,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院及113年度行"},{"start":9616.84,"end":9617,"text":"主席陳委員"},{"start":9646.187,"end":9646.547,"text":"鄭正前委員"},{"start":9668.633,"end":9687.896,"text":"主委好因為今年我們原能會改組成核安會所以就有很多相關的一個部分那我想說第一個部分我想問的部分還是要問有關於整個日本排放核污染水的部分因為我們看了一下就是我們"},{"start":9689.542,"end":9715.895,"text":"相關單位我們裡面有關於國家海域放射性物質擴散預警及安全評估應對計畫裡頭那我們大概查大概有三筆預算大概跟這個部分有關然後發現其中有關於環境輻射偵測的業務計畫跟整個原子能科學發展工作計畫下面這兩筆預算都較上一年度簡略是什麼原因可以簡單說明一下"},{"start":9717.035,"end":9720.819,"text":"應對計劃是從今年開始112年到115年4年剛開始是編列4.8億一年1.2億但是它是逐年審那今年呢明年是因為"},{"start":9736.598,"end":9760.627,"text":"國科會統三國科會統三的原因因為我在想說因為就今年其實他們開始排放核污染水那我在想說我們對於這部分的檢測一定要特別加緊那我們後續會再往下因為今天的時間比較短我就持續再往下針對這部分到時候你們之後再用那個相關的書面資料"},{"start":9761.547,"end":9762.987,"text":"四、審查190年度及113年度行政法人"},{"start":9778.012,"end":9800.607,"text":"這裏面是不是都在我們監測範圍裏頭我為什麼這樣問我就直接把我看到的表格把它列出來因為這張表格是放射性物質海域擴散海洋資訊平台裏面我們點出來的那麼取樣的時間那它裏面的核種只有色137跟穿那其他的都沒有所以我想說對於其他沒有的那個核種的時候我們有沒有同時做檢測"},{"start":9802.103,"end":9824.882,"text":"是的,我剛才回答前面的委員的質詢就有提到我們在特定的海域離島跟這個黑潮流經的部分那我們有做其他核種的一些檢驗那麼主要的部分其實是在色跟川那麼這個是延續國際所有的標準的做法"},{"start":9827.025,"end":9827.225,"text":"獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":9852.13,"end":9865.299,"text":"我想要特別講的是穿的部分因為穿全部都沒有出來那我想問這個穿沒有出來是因為他完全沒有還是說他低於MDA的部分"},{"start":9866.465,"end":9895.379,"text":"那個自然的環境的背景值是0.5貝克除以每升那麼我們simulation就是模擬是10的-6次方那麼它其實是遠低於機器可以量測的範圍叫minimum detective amount所以我們到時候我們有某這個數字只是說因為它低於MDA所以說我們這邊就是測不出來"},{"start":9895.939,"end":9899.181,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":9922.895,"end":9927.457,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":9943.327,"end":9956.476,"text":"第一個,AOPS是一個Advanced Liquid Processing System,那麼它其實64個核種,在原來的核廢水裡面大概過濾了62種,但那兩種沒辦法過濾,一個是川,"},{"start":9961.459,"end":9978.524,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9978.524,"end":10006.015,"text":"檢測檢測檢測檢測"},{"start":10006.577,"end":10027.173,"text":"我再想說對於這個部分就是因為主委這邊也很清楚知道LPS它的限制性所以我們對這部分就我們一個民意代表角度的時候我們對這部分一定會在更加強的部分去做一個監督因為這對民眾的健康有非常直接的一個關係那我再往下走"},{"start":10028.314,"end":10048.2,"text":"這是我們從漁業署漁獲5生物川抽驗結果的一個報告我想這個裡面它對於生物川這邊也有一個全部都是MDA的一個狀態我想這個檢測是我們就是單位檢測的還是漁業署檢測的是我們單位檢測漁業署抽樣漁業署抽樣那國研院來做檢測"},{"start":10057.312,"end":10057.492,"text":"海洋資訊平台海水監測"},{"start":10082.193,"end":10084.195,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":10099.831,"end":10123.214,"text":"則核安會這邊能夠定期來公佈我們檢測的一個結果然後讓我們很清楚的知道就是目前的一個環境到底是怎麼樣子因為它這一排也是要排很多年你知道嗎而且越排的狀態很可能它的濃度會越來越高所以我們希望這個部分能夠主動來公佈那麼也希望主委能夠支持這樣的一個主決議"},{"start":10125.236,"end":10138.464,"text":"謝謝委員的建議第一個就是我們這個平台的操作不夠user friendly我自己非常認同那我們會來想辦法第二個剛才我們提到一些檢測的問題其實是漁業署抽樣"},{"start":10142.506,"end":10157.396,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預二、審查112年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":10167.363,"end":10183.882,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":10183.882,"end":10185.423,"text":"二、審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預"},{"start":10200.37,"end":10228.436,"text":"之前我們有提到就是各縣市有挑出40處潛在的長址潛在長址這個部分那我當時我有特別問了在竹竹苗這邊這40個潛在長址當中有幾個那我想問具體在什麼地方那你們給我一個回覆啦那這回覆呢基本上等於是沒有回覆你們就把104年5月份的一個低放射性廢棄物最終處置計畫書就台電提出來你們就把它"},{"start":10228.976,"end":10229.516,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":10247.921,"end":10248.301,"text":"關於今天會議做以下決議"},{"start":10279.011,"end":10292.27,"text":"報告及詢答完畢,委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報。對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分,請相關機關緊速以書面答覆。"},{"start":10293.68,"end":10295.201,"text":"算案相關提案請於12月1日中午12時前提出令第7繼續審查報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在休息謝謝各位"},{"start":10330.067,"end":10331.088,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10354.411,"end":10355.232,"text":"委員會主管核子事故。"},{"start":10387.231,"end":10387.613,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"148775","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148775","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5080afbd56d4234869f2c8d079c8b71c500069142ad034a1c986728e607a032211952e407ee502b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳靜敏","委員發言時間":"09:08:53 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