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«職能治療師法部分條文修正草案》、委員吳玉琴等19人、時代力量黨團分別擬具 «職能治療師法部分條文修正草案》、委員王美惠等19人、時代力量黨團分別擬具"},{"start":2507.527,"end":2510.21,"text":"我們是不是就今年5月17號審查的結果進行協商保留條文我們當天保留條文只有第12條所以我們是不是進入我們第12條條文的一個討論"},{"start":2531.85,"end":2539.741,"text":"第十二條條文提案保留有委員吳玉琴等19人提案、委員莊競程等21人提案、委員林為洲等17人、委員王美惠等25人、時代力量黨團及台灣民眾黨黨團等提案。"},{"start":2548.713,"end":2575.49,"text":"還有修正動議保留是由莊競程委員等6人以及委員邱太元等3人所提的修正動議。那我是不是請大家可以就這一本,這本是我們議事組這邊協助我們整理,而且有把洪森漢委員的版本放進來。所以我們是不是大家手上,各位委員不好意思,大家手上有沒有白色這一本?"},{"start":2577.243,"end":2600.228,"text":"林委員還有王委員不好意思手上有沒有這一本我們就照這一本來看因為我們就12條是保留協商的條文那這一本有把洪森漢委員的版本也放進來所以我們一併來看好嗎我們可以請大家翻到第二頁這是第12條的一個協商的就是保留協商的一個各版各個版本那也包括這個後來"},{"start":2601.608,"end":2612.297,"text":"委員吳玉琴等19人、委員莊競程等21人、時代力量黨團分別擬具《職能治療師法第十二條條文修正草案》、委員吳玉琴等19人、委員莊競程等21人、時代力量黨團分別擬具《職能治療師法第十二條條文修正草案》、委員吳玉琴等19人、委員莊競程等21人、時代力量黨團分別擬具《職能治療師法第十二條條文修正草案》、委員吳玉琴等19人、時代力量黨團分別擬具《職能治療師法第十二條條條文修正草案》、委員吳玉"},{"start":2628.773,"end":2652.322,"text":"謝謝各位委員我就簡單的報告一下第十二條因為在很多委員的版本都有在第二項的時候希望能夠增列第二款到第五款的這部分那只是因為在醫療的連續性照顧裡面很難用這樣子的item來分是說什麼叫做疾病治療跟就是需要醫主跟非醫主的部分所以我們會建議就是說"},{"start":2653.462,"end":2669.213,"text":"委員吳玉琴等19人、委員莊競程等21人、時代力量黨團分別擬具《職能治療師法第十二條條文修正草案》、委員吳玉琴等18人、時代力量黨團分別擬具《職能治療師法第十二條條文修正草案》、委員吳玉琴等19人、時代力量黨團分別擬具《職能治療師法第十二條條文修正草案》、委員吳玉琴等19人、時代力量黨團分別擬具《職能治療師法第十二條條文修正草案》、委員吳玉琴等19人、時代力量黨團分別擬具《職能治�"},{"start":2677.718,"end":2688.908,"text":"二月八號這跟二月八號《物理治療師》的版本是一模一樣這樣在做後續的一些討論跟演繹的時候就可以讓《物理治療師》跟《指念治療師》一起進來做討論以上"},{"start":2692.54,"end":2717.785,"text":"好謝謝我們這個醫事師的一個說明那不曉得委員對於現在這個版本等於是跟《物理治療師法》是一樣的文字本文是那說明欄的部分有特別把這個職業病包含在疾病裡面所以說明欄有稍微有跟可能跟物質的那個說明欄有一些不一樣不曉得我們幾位委員有沒有什麼"},{"start":2719.775,"end":2740.834,"text":"有沒有什麼意見還是說照這個版本來通過?來,王委員。大方向是認同就是說照物理治療師的版本來做一個文字的修正。不過也想請教一下說這邊所謂的在說明欄裡面提到職業病在內的疾病的治療等等,這個職業病的範疇會有哪個部分來做定義?"},{"start":2745.778,"end":2765.106,"text":"時代力量黨團的版本我們認為說現在只能治療不只是只有在後端來協助他們負能,如果可以的話我們當然是希望能夠從前端來做更多的預防或是協助,避免落入到疾病的可能性。所以在我們的版本裡面其實就有在第一項的第一款有特別提到,不只是評估,也希望把指導和諮詢能夠納進去。"},{"start":2766.787,"end":2785.156,"text":"我們希望整體來說如果他還沒有到嚴重或是還沒有到疾病的程度他可能對於職能治療或是對於職能復健的部分等等有一些些概念他可能遇到一些生活上的困難他能夠先去做諮詢或許是在一個推動國人健康上面是一個比較全面的做法所以這兩部分想請教一下部會的意見"},{"start":2786.612,"end":2804.284,"text":"新舊第二部分因為比較直接它就是以一個非治療疾病的一個範疇來做處理的時候其實本來就不需要醫主因為需要醫師醫主的部分就是以治療疾病為來做一個處理所以在這個分野上面會比較清楚"},{"start":2804.844,"end":2805.084,"text":"併案審查委員"},{"start":2819.821,"end":2819.841,"text":"佈局長"},{"start":2853.665,"end":2861.693,"text":"其他委員對現在提出來的協商共識版有沒有要再質詢或詢問的部分?"},{"start":2862.947,"end":2886.932,"text":"可以吧,我們就照物理治療師法的一個文字,就後面加一個但非以疾病治療為目的者,不在此限。那說明欄的部分呢,衛務部也做了一個把職業病在內的疾病都含在疾病裡面。這個部分也是職業病的相關團體有些他們的疑慮,我們就把它說清楚。"},{"start":2888.308,"end":2904.535,"text":"可以嗎?我們是不是照這樣的協商版本來通過?是,那個麥克風在另外一邊。沒關係。來,吳委員。謝謝。吳委員,那個我們民眾黨也支持剛剛所提的這個部分。謝謝。"},{"start":2906.258,"end":2932.629,"text":"謝謝我想這樣還是弄錯麥克風來那像各黨團都支持這樣的一個行政院我們衛福部現在提出來的協商共識版是不是我們就可以照我們行政院提出來的這個共識版來通過那說明欄第十二條的立法說明也照衛福部的建議通過謝謝來"},{"start":2939.268,"end":2942.972,"text":"哪一個九分?是!是!有嗎?在哪裡?是!好!喔!好!是不是?來!好!是!所以他們..."},{"start":2977.274,"end":2997.076,"text":"我們在審查會的時候有通過了第九條的這個文字那是不是在說明欄的部分也請衛福部授權衛福部再把說明欄依照我們修正的這個通過的法令有沒有文字要再做修正的授權我們衛福部這邊來做文字的一個修正好嗎"},{"start":2998.353,"end":3011.701,"text":"好,就是週延性啦,因為我們沒有去看,當時沒有去看各委員提出的版本,但是沒有一個是行政部門的這個立法說明。好,那是不是我們"},{"start":3013.812,"end":3042.018,"text":"是那這樣12條我們就照這樣的通過那第九條的部分說明來在請衛務部在通盤的一個檢視有沒有看要文字來修正那另外呢我們其他的就其餘的先照審查會審查通過其他的條文就照審查會的通過19的話就是照原條文沒有修正"},{"start":3043.741,"end":3047.662,"text":"在委員會審查的時候,19條就是維持現行條文,19條他們是維持現行條文,這是在委員會審查的時候就是這樣處理的。"},{"start":3069.892,"end":3086.624,"text":"我們接下來要看有關附帶決議的部分請大家看一下我們手上是不是都有這份附帶決議剛剛大家都有一起連署單張附帶決議應該大家都共同連署應該沒有問題吧這需要宣讀嗎"},{"start":3093.649,"end":3100.652,"text":"一、衛生福利部因與職能治療師法施行後三個月內,邀請中華民國醫師公會全國聯合會、台灣復健醫學會、環境職業醫學會及相關專業團體共同研商非以含職業病在內之疾病治療為目的之範圍,並以含釋明確之,以保障民眾福祉。二、"},{"start":3123.183,"end":3146.02,"text":"在本法三讀修正後,建請主管機關加強監督稽查以確保民眾健康權益。三、衛生福利部應積極了解物理治療師及職能治療師之職業狀況以保障民眾健康福祉。提案人委員邱太元、連署人委員吳玉琴、蘇巧慧、賴慧媛、林為洲、黃秀芳、婉婉玉、吳欣盈宣讀完畢。"},{"start":3148.179,"end":3169.276,"text":"謝謝,那這個附帶決議我們是不是這一項附帶決議我們就通過?來,那個王委員。我覺得大概事實上是同意啦,但是我想先理清一下說,物理治療師其實也是有類似的概念,那當時在這個實施修法通過之後的三個月內,是不是有針對這些非以治療為目的的部分已經有達到一個共識?"},{"start":3170.437,"end":3190.119,"text":"所以我們想提到的是說因為我們真的認為說職能治療師、物理治療師其實都非常重要尤其是職能治療在像是精神衛生、藻療、特教議題上其實都有它非常重要的責任和重要的職務必須要能夠一起來做協力扮演的非常重要的角色所以我們很希望的是這個三個月內能夠盡快地來做到這個範圍裡面"},{"start":3191.74,"end":3203.126,"text":"因為我覺得如果一旦沒有清楚定義,恐怕就會又再有更多延伸的爭議,這部分可能真的需要請衛福部認真地來處理,達到三個月內能夠清楚地把非以職業病在內的這些範疇能夠定出來。"},{"start":3207.148,"end":3221.445,"text":"而避免掉說過去大家會看到即便修法通過之後大家還是會有一些在於定義上的模糊又或者是是不是有違反治療師法的可能性等等那我們希望不要造成這個爭議所以不只是附帶決議也希望是衛福部真的能夠盡快來做推動和協議"},{"start":3226.872,"end":3237.868,"text":"職能治療師跟物理治療師的部分我們大概就是會再加速啦因為就是說第一次在做物理治療師的時候大家對於那個想像空間是大的"},{"start":3241.971,"end":3247.654,"text":"提出的範圍是各有法律依據的,非以疾病治療為目的。"},{"start":3260.34,"end":3281.867,"text":"老師講是範疇的部分對定義不清楚然後那請大家回去用法規現有的法規比如說長照法裡面講的什麼東西學校的一個比如說像衛生教育裡面的在那邊講的東西以這樣子來做一個具體討論的時候是比較聚焦所以同樣的模式大概在職能治療師也會以這樣子正面表列的方式來做推動我們會盡數以上"},{"start":3283.968,"end":3288.032,"text":"好,謝謝。我想真的要催促我們衛務部盡快的讓物質跟質質這個所謂的非疾病治療為目的的這個範疇趕快"},{"start":3295.726,"end":3317.833,"text":"借定清楚,我想這個未來在執行面的部分,才能讓兩個師跟我們醫界能夠有所適從,大家一起來遵守。所以對於說有什麼違反醫師法的這個情形,我們就是嚴加的稽查。我覺得這是只要有違法,我們還是要有強力的支持法,這邊的一個範疇,就是不能有醫療行為。"},{"start":3323.495,"end":3341.959,"text":"來,那是不是我們,是不是我們就,這個附帶決議就照這個我們邱委員的提案來通過。那我們現在是不是請議事人員來先讀協商的結論。來,請。宣讀協商結論。一、協商通過條文第十二條如附件。二、其餘均照審查會審查結果通過。三、通過附帶決議一項。四、檢附立法說明一份。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":3354.72,"end":3358.847,"text":"謝謝,那我們是不是今天這個協商的會議就到這邊結束。謝謝,我們就散會。謝謝大家參與,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"148866","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148866","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae3621866913947cfeb0ffc3c672691d430b92bdeaf34c986728e607a03229eaef7e7dd1b13af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:14:05 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12:25:38","影片長度":"00:11:33","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號28974）\n三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員洪申翰等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號10041896））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":693,"end_time":"2023-12-04T12:25:38+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T12:14:05+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":812,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時14分）謝謝召委。麻煩請薛部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長在9月8日受訪時提到，後年將規劃65歲以上，健保第六類投保長者可以免付保費。其實你講的是第六類排富後的全額補助，但依照這樣的內容來看，包括低收入戶、中低收入戶的保費在內，其實我們也差不多面面俱到，對於經濟弱勢族群大概都有照顧到。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["陳委員瑩：我想部長應該很瞭解，本席在衛環委員會算老衛環，對於長者的福利政策我一向都有所要求，特別是把與原住民有關的規定年齡降到55歲，也就是與原住民長者、老人有關的年齡規定降到55歲，如此一來，長照原住民的適用年齡、中低收的假牙補助、原住民的假牙補助、安置經濟弱勢長者的年齡規定都在我的提案之下，將原住民長者的適用年齡降為55歲；此外，中低收入長者的健保補助也是我在2021年所爭取的，而這部分也將原住民的年齡下降到55歲。所以對於未來將研議、規劃針對健保第六類對象65歲以上長者排富後的全額補助，我非常樂見，也支持部長在9月8日所提到的這些內容，因此我馬上跟衛福部提到，希望這項政策在原住民適用的規定應該要降到55歲。不曉得我之前的質詢，衛福部有沒有針對這個部分做研議？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，目前我們正在盤到底有多少對象可以作為我們未來擴大健保費補助的對象，這部分我們正在盤查。至於委員剛剛提到，原住民是不是可以從65歲放到55歲，是這個意思吧？"],["陳委員瑩：因為你們有在盤點，表示你們有針對本席的質詢要求在啟動，畢竟要研議一項政策時一定要先盤點，所以我肯定部長已經有初步的動作，我也瞭解需要一點時間，但截至目前為止，本席還是肯定部長與衛福部的作為。未來在補助經濟弱勢長者的健保費時，我也請你們能同時研議將原住民這部分下降到55歲。","我在10月3日看到新北市政府的新聞稿有關侯友宜的原住民政見，自113年1月起，對原住民的健保補助下降到55歲，其實這些你們已經在研議了，我前面也都質詢過了。更好玩的是，去年11月的九合一選舉及市議員選舉，因為我們團隊也有助理參選新北市議員，我們幕僚還有我自己也幫我的助理準備了這項政見，也就是現在侯友宜即將要做的這件事，部長，這樣聽起來、整個看起來，這不就是在抄你們的，也是在抄我的嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：大概是這樣。好的政策我們不主張有著作權，所以要抄的話都非常歡迎。"],["陳委員瑩：我真的非常佩服部長的智慧跟話術，真的非常藝術、非常高超，本席遠遠不及！我覺得抄襲就是抄襲，但部長卻說好的政策……你再說一遍，我覺得很好聽！"],["薛部長瑞元：好的政策不需要主張著作權。"],["陳委員瑩：好，這點我改進，好的政策不主張著作權，但我可以主張我的優先權，好嗎？部長，我明白且可以理解你們不是很方便講得太白，我只是覺得說……但是我講話就很直啊！我只是認為有很多原住民的福利政策，其實新北市是走在以前鄭文燦市長主政的桃園市後面，如果新北市真的很在意原住民這個政策的話，第一個，原住民人口就不會有這麼多移到桃園去。再順便講一下好玩的事情，2018年我在推動原住民假牙補助的時候，那時候蘇貞昌院長在選新北市長，我們都有一起共同推這樣的政見，結果當時另外一位候選人侯友宜說應該要用塗氟的方式，其實我很有概念，我很清楚知道老人家如果沒有牙齒，就沒有牙齒是要塗氟塗到哪裡去，這個是我的疑問。所以這個部分，我想真正要重視原住民的權益，我們可以不主張這個好的政策有著作權，但是我們希望強調它的優先權。","再來，部長，我快速追一下進度，昨天我在開客廳會，即跟年輕人座談的說明會，年輕人他們家中有父母還有阿公、阿嬤，突然有人又來跟我關心助聽器的問題，說委員為什麼不爭取給老人家助聽器的補助，我之前提針對原住民助聽器補助的部分，你有承諾一個月之後要回復，因為沒有人告訴我這個進度是怎樣，其實已經過了一個多月、快兩個月了……"],["薛部長瑞元：我再請長照司這邊回復給委員有關這部分的研議結果。"],["陳委員瑩：好，因為時間的關係，我就勉強接受你們會後來跟我們報告，因為有進度才會有研議，有進度才會有報告。","最後快速請教一下部長文健站照服員薪資的問題，我講到這個，部長可能會說原住民文健站的體系是由原民會來主管，但是這個經費的來源是長照基金，2019年的時候長照2.0的照服員薪資都已經來到3萬3,000元，可是那時候只有文健站的照服員薪資還停留在2萬7,000元，當時也是我率先發現這個問題，我要求應該從2020年開始把文健站照服員的薪資調到3萬3,000元，而且要追回補發之前沒有發的差額。","現在三年過去了，通貨膨脹的狀況其實是很明顯的，部長也有感受到，軍公教在去（2022）年調薪了4%，再來明（2024）年的時候還要再加薪、再調4%，但是文健站的照服員都沒有調整，我這樣提出來是因為文健站照服員雖然不是公務人員，但是政府很多計畫用人，在公務人員加薪的時候，他們的聘用人員也都一起跟著調薪，我在體育署推動棒壘球人才計畫裡面聘僱的教練也是一樣跟著一起調薪的，衛福部下面很多計畫的臨時人員也是如此，所以公務人員加薪，文健站照服員跟著加薪絕對是合情合理且合乎規定的，所以我今天特別提出來，我不曉得部長的看法是怎麼樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分的話，因為文健站的部分基本上是原民會他們提計畫一年要用多少，再給衛福部這邊來申請長照基金的挹注，所以我們回去會再跟原民會這邊討論，如果要加薪的話，整個預算可能會增加多少，再請原民會提過來給我們，我們再來審查。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝部長沒有在這裡就一口回絕啦！當然文健站照服員是由原民會主管，加薪一定要經過你們的同意，其實我在原民會明年度的預算審查中已經有提案要求，就是未來文健站照服員的薪資調整是不得低於軍公教薪資調整的幅度，所以我希望為文健站照服員爭取加薪的這件事情，在這邊也謝謝部長沒有反對，我們就等原民會，也希望你們能夠大力支持，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席：本日會議登記質詢委員已發言完畢。委員楊曜、劉建國、林淑芬、湯蕙禎、莊競程所提的書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3","speakers":["吳欣盈","林楚茵","謝衣鳯","高嘉瑜","賴惠員","溫玉霞","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","邱泰源","徐志榮","洪申翰","王婉諭","張育美","黃秀芳","陳椒華","范雲","張其祿","林為洲","陳瑩","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","湯蕙禎","莊競程"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；五、委員洪申翰等20\n人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；八、台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129501_00002"}}},{"id":"148865","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148865","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae362186691399124a78f6ce7c73a91d430b92bdeaf34c986728e607a0322b75eef7241a86e735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林為洲","委員發言時間":"12:02:43 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12:13:35","影片長度":"00:10:52","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號28974）\n三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員洪申翰等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號10041896））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":652,"end_time":"2023-12-04T12:13:35+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T12:02:43+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":768,"blocks":[["林委員為洲：（12時2分）謝謝召委，有請薛部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["林委員為洲：薛部長，今天我們要討論人工生殖法部分條文修正草案，我們都知道行政院或衛福部還沒有提出版本，所以我剛剛聽你回答委員的答案都是說尊重大院的共識，所以你沒有什麼立場，到底要支持或是你們的方向是怎麼樣？是行政院或衛福部還沒有凝聚出共識嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：以目前來講的話，我們是採取開放的態度……"],["林委員為洲：開放的態度是什麼意思？"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，這件事情是這樣子……"],["林委員為洲：開放代理孕母的態度？還是……"],["薛部長瑞元：不管開放哪一個都是一樣，因為過去我曾經在一些法律雜誌上面發表過相關的文章……"],["林委員為洲：你的觀點是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：我的觀點已經不重要，因為我現在在這個位置上面，我不能用我的觀點去取代社會的共識，所以我自己會很自制，不要讓我自己個人的觀點去影響整個社會的判斷，所以我才……"],["林委員為洲：我記得部長也是醫師，你是婦產科醫師，所以對這方面應該很瞭解，包括生態、目前的狀況或是碰到的一些問題，這個等到逐條的時候再來討論。我們也希望行政院或衛福部有版本和方向，這樣才不會白費工，你現在都說尊重大院、大家有共識就OK，萬一到時候又不符合行政院或衛福部的政策方向，屆時又阻礙了修法的進度都有可能。以往修法的時候，常常碰到這種狀況，因為你們都不表態、沒有版本，到最後我們有共識了，結果反而是跟你們沒共識，會有這樣的情形。還有一段時間要走，所以我們就慢慢來討論。","我先請教你，因為我們中午要進行職能治療師法保留條文的朝野協商，你們的態度是怎麼樣？是不是比照物理治療師的立法模式？衛福部有沒有意見？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分我們建議比照物理治療師……"],["林委員為洲：好，這樣就會順利了，因為物理治療師的部分已經完成三讀，我們希望職能治療師法的修法也可以順利完成。","再來我想請教，我們現在要討論人工生殖法的修法，針對這個法，你認為按照現在各黨團或委員所提出的版本，有沒有助於將來改善少子化的狀況？"],["薛部長瑞元：第一個，修這個法的目的並不是針對少子化，所以未來對於少子化的情形到底會不會有好的影響，我們目前也沒有預估。"],["林委員為洲：OK，瞭解。當然它有其他的政策目的，譬如保障權利各方面。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員為洲：少子化現在很嚴重，大家都一直在想對策，看看要如何防止少子化更惡化。我看了一些資料，現在大部分都是在後端的補助，譬如針對托育、養兒、學前教育等等提高各種補助，但是我們看到一些相關的數字，結婚之後的生育率其實並沒有那麼嚴重的下降，也就是說，結婚之後的婦女生育率總數是生1個、1.5個還是2個，這個部分的數字其實下降得不多，主要是不婚的比率越來越高，不婚當然就……非婚生子女那就很少了，所以不婚才是重大的問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊，在臺灣這是少的。"],["林委員為洲：超過三成以上，在適婚年齡的超過三成以上都不婚了。所以要解決少子化的問題，前端恐怕更重要，就是要如何讓大家願意結婚，然後生子。","今天我們來討論一下，我們比較務實的來看待已婚夫婦要養育小孩子、要生兒育女碰到不孕症治療的問題。我們知道從2021年開始有補助，針對做試管嬰兒每一次補助10萬元，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員為洲：這是針對非低收入戶，如果是低收入戶補助更多。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員為洲：然後未滿40歲可以補助到六次，40歲以上到44歲之間補助三次，希望這樣子能夠幫助已婚的人。其實已婚的很多都願意生兒育女，但是像我周邊就有蠻多人碰到不孕症的問題。針對這項補助，你們的政策在2021年推出以後，到現在是2023年，有檢討嗎？效益如何？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實效果應該算是不錯啦，目前我們已經有一萬三千多對……"],["林委員為洲：接受補助？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，產下了一萬四千名的嬰兒。"],["林委員為洲：有一點成效。大家現在也開始在檢討針對補助的次數要不要提高，因為這些人就是願意生，所以這個在提高生育率上是最有效的，因為他願意生，但礙於經濟方面的影響或各方面原因，他很辛苦！剛剛在來之前，我問我一個有做試管嬰兒的朋友：你做了幾次才成功？他說第11次才成功。好像10次革命一樣，一次要花十幾萬，且一次療程大概要3個月到半年，我想這點部長很內行。真的很辛苦，媽媽也很辛苦，然後放進去的胚胎數通常會比補助的多，因為怕失敗又重來再做一次。"],["薛部長瑞元：現在已經好多了。"],["林委員為洲：所以補助能不能更放寬一點？我覺得要提高生育率，這些人是最有效率的，因為他本身就有意願要生小孩。如果可以給他更多的誘因，那麼政策效益會最高。所以我的結論是，雖然你們2021年開始有補助方案，但請給我書面報告，做政策效益評估，畢竟已經有效益出來了，所以請說明政策效益；另外，提出有沒有需要改善的方向？譬如40歲以上到44歲的只補助三次，但是三次不一定會成功，是不是能夠提高次數？還有關於補助上限10萬塊是不是能夠提高？這個也要去評估。因為第一次只補助10萬，再一次申請就只補助6萬，通常都是不夠的，因為要花很多費用，而且要很多次。其實你們規定得很嚴，像胚胎數，未滿36歲最多只能植入一個胚胎；36歲未滿45歲，最多只能植入兩個胚胎，所以能不能放寬植入的胚胎數？比如一個變二個，讓成功率更高一點。我聽他們講，我自己是沒有做過，但是這整個過程療程是讓媽媽受苦，要很辛苦地打針，然後要躺在床上安胎等等。能不能提高成功率，這樣就不用做那麼多次，這點請你們做一個評估。一方面說明你們從2021年到現在，透過這樣的補助措施到底成效如何做書面說明；另外一方面，提出改善方案。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。跟委員報告，其中有一點，也就是有關40歲以上的是不是要提高次數？或者植入的……"],["林委員為洲：胚胎數。"],["薛部長瑞元：胚胎數是不是要多一點？這涉及的可能比較專業，我們會跟相關的醫學會……"],["林委員為洲：當然，你們要請專業的做評估……"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會去請教他們，然後再回給委員。"],["林委員為洲：好，再把書面說明與報告提供給委員會跟本席，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","莊競程、莊競程、莊競程不在。","湯蕙禎、湯蕙禎、湯蕙禎不在。","羅明才、羅明才、羅明才不在。","林思銘、林思銘、林思銘不在。","高嘉瑜、高嘉瑜、高嘉瑜不在。","邱臣遠、邱臣遠、邱臣遠不在。","有請陳瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3","speakers":["吳欣盈","林楚茵","謝衣鳯","高嘉瑜","賴惠員","溫玉霞","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","邱泰源","徐志榮","洪申翰","王婉諭","張育美","黃秀芳","陳椒華","范雲","張其祿","林為洲","陳瑩","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","湯蕙禎","莊競程"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；五、委員洪申翰等20\n人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；八、台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129501_00002"}}},{"id":"148864","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148864","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae362186691396e776934d627c88a91d430b92bdeaf34c986728e607a032291724fa8893bc8465ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張其祿","委員發言時間":"11:54:42 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12:02:28","影片長度":"00:07:46","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號28974）\n三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員洪申翰等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號10041896））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":466,"end_time":"2023-12-04T12:02:28+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T11:54:42+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":741,"blocks":[["張委員其祿：（11時54分）謝謝召委，也是請薛部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["張委員其祿：部長好。部長，今天召委排這個法的修法，其實簡報這一頁已經說明全部了，現在大概狀況是這樣，當然我也同意修法不見得馬上可以完全一步到位。坦白說人工生殖尤其是關於試管嬰兒，跟代理孕母這兩個有層次上的不一樣，我同意這樣的事情。其實我也同意代理孕母目前國內可能在修法的難度上是比較困難，因為它複雜，包括第三人的權益、怎麼樣保護代理孕母自己的權益、他的自主權，免得他被剝剝，還有尤其要是有代孕的中介機構的話，中間的管理規範真的會非常複雜，其實就是我們表格裡面有關代理孕母的這邊，當然目前我們所有的代孕母都不可以。","其實剛才也有其他部分委員在談這件事，就是如果這一段比較困難，那往前面一點點，包括人工生殖，尤其試管嬰兒這個地方，我們也看到除非是合法的夫妻等等，現在異性伴侶是沒有問題的；其他的包括女女、男男或者單身男性、單身女性，現在都碰到同樣的問題，都不行。所以我們今天還是往前再進一步，因為我們也很清楚現代世界的潮流趨勢，是不是一定要用所謂的婚姻關係去框架或者是限制了所有，其實也不太行，也不宜啦！坦白說現在結婚也不一定要從父姓，你要姓媽媽的姓也是滿OK的啊！而且我們也非常鼓勵，其實沒有什麼問題嘛，都是一律平等。所以這個地方就等於處理單身的女性或者是女女的伴侶，說實話這一段應該是可以比較快啦！因為坦白講他們就是自己嘛，他如果自己也願意，如果能夠這樣子先往前進一步，我們是覺得至少也……而且我國的婚姻也是非常平權，臺灣在對於同志尊重的這個部分幾乎是第一了。所以從公共政策的角度，我覺得先漸進地往前走一步也是好事啊！這有沒有可能啊？部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，事實上如果大院的委員能夠有這樣子的共識的話，衛福部就會遵照來辦理。"],["張委員其祿：應該這樣講，其實各黨派包括我們民眾黨自己，雖然我們當時因為前後的時間關係有提兩個版本，至少我覺得在前面這個階段，大家都是很認可的，尤其我們覺得先優先解決比如說女女伴侶的問題、單身女性的問題，他們其實去做這個，甚至就是用他自己的身體，他自主嘛！所以我覺得這個其實道理上沒有那麼複雜，我倒是覺得這個地方甚至應該可以更寬鬆，因為我們其他有一些法令都已經是解開的嘛！這個地方是不是有機會呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個倒不是只有寬鬆或不寬鬆的問題，因為後面還是需要有一些配套，很可能我們在這邊也沒有辦法好好地去詳盡、深入做討論啦！"],["張委員其祿：我想請教部長，剛才其實范雲委員也在問同樣的問題，如果現在院裡面正在擬，因為我知道你們也在準備這個，你們現在大方向是怎麼樣？是像我剛才講的嗎？是先處理人工生殖試管嬰兒這一段嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們現在的方向是把所有的統統列出來。"],["張委員其祿：全部都列出來？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，全部都列出來，我們現在方向是這樣。"],["張委員其祿：那代理孕母這個部分呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：也會列出來，讓大家來做討論，如果大院的委員有這樣的共識，就是說分兩階段，第二階段再去處理代理孕母的部分，我們的版本也可以來做調整。"],["張委員其祿：代理孕母的這個部分當然真的是比較複雜，我同意，我能不能先請教一下，如果參考國外的例子的話，比較會是往哪一個國家的去看？有沒有什麼參考？"],["薛部長瑞元：每一個國家的國情、文化都不同，其實這些都有關係，老實講，也沒有說哪一個國家是我們可以全盤照抄的，我們還是必須自己去做判斷。它裡面就有許多設計是完全不一樣的，比方說代孕的這些機構是否商業化，還是公益性的，這也是一個很大的……"],["張委員其祿：這是一個選擇啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：這是很大的一個問題啦，全世界其他國家兩種都有啊！"],["張委員其祿：對，我知道。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以價值選擇的部分非常困難。"],["張委員其祿：其實應該這樣講，因為這屆國會所剩的時間非常有限，我們當然也知道這個議題至關重要，我有時候覺得如果以修法的角度，它能夠先往前面進步的價值先前進一步，甚至先解決部分人的問題，這也是好事，總是不要因為太困難，結果我們連眼下既有的部分，比如女女或單身女性，這幾乎是沒有爭議的、大家都很支持的，至少這能夠往前一步，這就是好事啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：如果要往這方面走的話，第一個就是委員要先有共識，委員的共識是這樣，各個委員跟黨團提出來的就不要有代孕的部分，那我們就不會進入代孕的討論，至於院版我們也會把它拿掉，把代孕拿到下一階段再去處理，但一定是委員要先有這個共識，要不然的話，我們拿出一個沒有代孕的版本，結果委員提的是有代孕的版本，這時候要討論，難道可以把它忽略掉嗎？"],["張委員其祿：我當然瞭解，所以我才說重點在於希望大家能凝聚一個共識，其實大家的立意都不錯，但如果要一次到完美，有時候反而是讓好不容易可以前進一小步的也變成沒有辦法，這是我這次質詢比較想要提出的觀點，其實有些部分已經是社會有共識、可以先往前走一步了，以上。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["張委員其祿：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","有請林楚茵委員，林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵。","有請陳培瑜委員，陳培瑜、陳培瑜、陳培瑜。","下一位請林為洲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3","speakers":["吳欣盈","林楚茵","謝衣鳯","高嘉瑜","賴惠員","溫玉霞","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","邱泰源","徐志榮","洪申翰","王婉諭","張育美","黃秀芳","陳椒華","范雲","張其祿","林為洲","陳瑩","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","湯蕙禎","莊競程"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；五、委員洪申翰等20\n人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；八、台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129501_00002"}}},{"id":"148863","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148863","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae3621866913956f795583077c5be91d430b92bdeaf34c986728e607a03226013a5e6b2b6089b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:48:34 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11:54:30","影片長度":"00:05:56","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號28974）\n三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員洪申翰等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號10041896））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":356,"end_time":"2023-12-04T11:54:30+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T11:48:34+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":722,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時48分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長好。我也是要先針對人工生殖法的部分請教部長，我想剛剛很多委員都有提到，無法生育的家庭，求子心切的願望必須被看到，所以今天衛環委員會有眾多的討論，我覺得是一件好事。也要跟部長報告一下，針對代孕的部分，長期關心婦女權益的婦團跟性別團體，目前仍然有三種不同的聲音，第一種聲音是反對代孕制度；第二種聲音是反對商業化的代孕；第三種聲音是反對倉促立法，但是支持與單身女性、女同志配偶脫鉤處理。因為剛剛部長都有提到，未來一年會提出你們自己的版本到立法院來討論，取得共識。我想問部長，你們提案的時候能不能把法案脫鉤處理？也就是說，其實這個人工生殖的部分涉及到兩種，一種是代孕，因為它涉及其他女性的身體，所以相關的議題比較複雜；另外一種不涉及其他女性身體，單身女性跟女同志配偶的人工生殖，其實遇到的議題是不大一樣的，如果法案上能夠分開處理的話，也許有機會讓爭議比較少、在立法院達成共識的人工生殖的法案先行上路，逐步開始，不知道部長覺得有沒有這個可能性？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個可能性不是掌握在衛福部，是掌握在大院。"],["范委員雲：所以你的意思是說你們提出的法案就是……"],["薛部長瑞元：如果委員、各黨團有這樣子的共識，要脫鉤處理的話，我們都可以來做配合。"],["范委員雲：瞭解，就是你們尊重我們立法院的處理方式。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["范委員雲：好，我也希望未來能夠有更多的公聽會，能夠處理它面對到的不同挑戰，以下我就表達我自己的修法，因為我的法案目前還沒有付委，可是已經提出來，我並沒有處理代孕的部分，而是處理不涉及到其他女性身體的部分。依照現在的人工生殖法，女性要使用自己的冷凍卵體的時候，必須要有兩個前提，第一個，必須結婚成為異性戀夫妻；第二個，這個前提達到之後，還必須1年後未受孕。考慮凍卵的民眾有八成知道需要經過人工生殖，但是卻有不到三成的人知道只有不孕夫妻才能進行人工生殖，所以我的部分是希望未來能夠不再排除單身女性使用人工生殖。","另外，目前因為女同志配偶可以合法結婚，而且他們如果使用人工生殖，不涉及到像代孕、其他人的身體這樣複雜的問題，其實各國有非常多人來臺灣使用人工生殖的技術；可是我們自己的同胞，擁有公民權的合法女同志伴侶卻只能遠赴海外，花費超越百萬的費用，甚至冒著高風險，還有人因此被詐騙到柬埔寨，因為工作環境的惡劣而流產。根據同志家庭團體每年接到上千通生養諮詢的電話，20歲到29歲的同志超過四成有意願生養，所以我的版本針對這個部分覺得應該要保障女性的平等生育權，修法就是從保障不孕夫妻，我們可以改成保障使用人工生殖者，不再排除單身女性，已婚配偶的部分也應該包含目前我們合法的女同志配偶。針對這個部分，不知道部長您支不支持往這個方向開放呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前這些衛福部應該都沒有既定的立場，也沒有說支持或者不支持，衛福部在這次修法的立場是把各種可能要去處理的問題提出來，這個問題的處理還包括它的配套措施是什麼，把它提出來。像所謂委員提到的包括女同志的配偶，這些部分都可以來進入討論，因為裡面也會有一些複雜的問題，第一個，當然他是已經依法完成登記的配偶，或者是他有事實但是並沒有完成登記；第二個，如果在各種不同的情形之下，將來小孩子出生的時候，要怎麼樣去登記這個小孩子的親屬？也會牽涉到法定監護的問題，這些都需要有配套的措施。"],["范委員雲：好。你們未來的法案會經過行政院性別平等委員會的討論嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然。"],["范委員雲：一定會，好，希望如果經過行政院性別平等委員會討論的話，他們相關的意見也能夠讓我們立法院所有的委員得到一份。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，好。"],["范委員雲：OK，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請張其祿張委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3","speakers":["吳欣盈","林楚茵","謝衣鳯","高嘉瑜","賴惠員","溫玉霞","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","邱泰源","徐志榮","洪申翰","王婉諭","張育美","黃秀芳","陳椒華","范雲","張其祿","林為洲","陳瑩","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","湯蕙禎","莊競程"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；五、委員洪申翰等20\n人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；八、台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129501_00002"}}},{"id":"148862","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148862","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae36218669139a90daf14cec4769791d430b92bdeaf34c986728e607a03220c047472bec184315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:38:42 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11:48:25","影片長度":"00:09:43","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號28974）\n三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員洪申翰等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號10041896））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":583,"end_time":"2023-12-04T11:48:25+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T11:38:42+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":661,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時38分）謝謝主席，我想要請薛部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：薛部長好。今天不是要來吵架啦！要來……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦！我不曾跟你吵過架。"],["謝委員衣鳯：要來處理這些事情啦！因為你們衛福部每樣事情都很困難，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：即便是困難的事情也要想辦法，我們也要找出途徑來解決。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然、當然。"],["謝委員衣鳯：已經討論了、開了13次會，重點是有疑義的問題只有幾項要共同討論，其實其他的……"],["薛部長瑞元：不只幾項。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，就是很難處理嘛！可是你看其他國家也有明定法律，甚至像美國、英國針對一些部分也都是同意的，這部分我們是不是應該要儘快尋求共識？畢竟不孕已經成為現代家庭裡面一個常見的問題，我們希望今天在立法院可以藉由法律來解決大部分人這樣的問題，也希望政府能給予適當的指引，這也是要處理的，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你為什麼不現在就拿出來給我們看一看？"],["薛部長瑞元：現在還沒有啦，這個配套措施大家還沒有討論好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：剛才我聽你回答陳椒華委員的質詢，你說差不多已經有想法了，對不對？就是有解決的方案了。"],["薛部長瑞元：這是初步啦，初步有一些專家給我們意見，有一些解決的方案是對的，但是這個如果依照立法的程序，還是需要經過我們的法規委員會再檢查一下文字。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以今天也沒辦法討論？"],["薛部長瑞元：今天沒辦法。"],["謝委員衣鳯：沒結果？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有。"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為你們行政院都不拿版本出來。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為來不及，這麼倉促我是覺得不宜啦，不宜今天就處理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：一定要等選舉之後？"],["薛部長瑞元：這跟選舉沒關係。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是要等到選舉之後才有辦法處理重大的事情，才不會吵架？是怕選舉前會吵架，還是怎麼樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，那個跟這是沒關係的，這個真的是要謹慎從事，我們的態度是開放的，但是這個處理必須要謹慎。"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為我看到你今天其實對於不管是國民黨、民眾黨還是民進黨的提案都有看法，我們今天也希望行政院這邊對於每一個有爭議的事情都可以提出具體的看法，我當然知道行政院裡面有爭議的事情太多了，要處理的民眾、大家所有的多元意見已經太多了，但總是要有一點作法，然後也要想辦法前進，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，當然是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為每一個政策都是這樣子，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想要請問你，你有提到明年確定要編46.59億來提升我們護理的照護量能，這46.59億是不是要跟著健保的點值來浮動，還是專款專用？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分其實是一個專款，因為它就是編在其他部門裡面，並不是在一般總額裡面，所以它不會隨著點值去浮動。"],["謝委員衣鳯：目前你要提高護理的量能，是不是只給夜班？還是三班都有？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，大概是這個樣子，第一個是一般急性病床的護理人員，他們的夜班費大概占26億，但是因為其他病床、病房部門的護理人員還是有在值夜班的，所以我們會針對每家醫院的申請，在一般急性病房的這部分多給50%，讓它去處理那些其他的部門。另外，有一個基層的部分，如果它有調整護理人員的薪資，我們從它的健保加保金額就可以看得出來，這個部分的話會有6.59億。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，可是其實護理學會也一直在提出，你只提高夜間的，也會讓其他的兩班覺得有差別待遇，因為夜間只有一班，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：兩班。"],["謝委員衣鳯：然後其他的……"],["薛部長瑞元：小夜跟大夜都有。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，就是其他兩班會不會覺得有差別待遇？這也是一個複雜的問題，因為會牽涉到排班的問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，這個比較簡單，因為……"],["謝委員衣鳯：這也是會牽涉到排班的問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為這一次我們處理的夜班是包括小夜班跟大夜班，小夜跟大夜我們調查過，在整個護理站全部的護理人員人力裡面，會去包大夜或包小夜的大概都各占8%而已。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是其實大家最想要解決的好像是護病比，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：護病比是另外一個issue，我們現在也正在處理當中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：其實對這個部分，大家比較希望解決的是護病比，就是降低護士在照護的人數，然後能夠提高醫療的品質，這應該是目前大家比較想要解決的問題，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這部分我們正在努力當中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。我還有一個意見，因為我們在彰化的偏鄉，其實都有發現，偏鄉的男性比較好發的就是頭頸癌。我們知道頭頸癌的病人自殺率超過一般人的5倍，尤其他們都是在中低收入的族群裡面，他們也是家中經濟負擔比較重的成員，也是臺灣重要的勞動力。但是我們看到，一般頭頸癌病人的點值相當地低，相較之下比較低，因為頭頸癌的治療還有一些重建的工作都在頭部，還牽涉到非常多神經的範圍，造成了基層的醫師在訓練完之後就不願意從事相關的頭頸癌醫療行為，因為他們還可以去做耳鼻喉的基層醫師，導致我們訓練好的專科醫師，最後選擇從事基層醫師的工作，我們也沒有辦法叫那些醫生做功德，對不對？在這個部分，未來健保的點值對於醫生的投入能夠怎麼樣有一個合理的比例，不會讓我們培養好的這些基層醫師，離開比較複雜、比較重症的醫療工作，反而跑到比較簡單、沒有醫療糾紛的基層醫療？當然兩個都很重要，但是我們怎麼樣處理這些急重症？因為我看到基層的民眾的確有非常多的中低收入戶，他們因為頭頸癌，有時候還影響到顏面的美觀，還有發音等等，他沒有辦法交際、沒有辦法溝通，導致他們在心情跟心理上的負擔，有非常大的機率會導致他們有輕生或者是厭世的情形，這要怎麼樣解決？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，委員提到的是頭頸癌病人的治療，還有他的重建及後面的復健，這些是一系列必須要去做的，大部分在做這些治療的都限於一些醫學中心，或者是有這類專科的醫院才有在做。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我想在健保支付的這個部分，我們會請健保署再重新盤點，看看這個支付標準是不是需要再提高一些。"],["謝委員衣鳯：支付的點數是不是應該要除以他的工時？因為有些手術的確涉及比較多部分，尤其是在頭部的話，會涉及到的相關神經可能是比較細微的部分。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，它非常複雜。"],["謝委員衣鳯：然後加上後續的重建，因為我們必須要兼顧到每一項醫療，也必須要照顧到偏鄉或者是經濟弱勢的病人，對於這些病人，未來如果我們沒有這方面的醫生，如果他們覺得薪資報酬不如其他的科別，就不會有相關的醫生投入，這樣子對於我們未來在診治病人方面也沒有幫助，我認為健保應該要就這些部分的合理性做一些調整，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3","speakers":["吳欣盈","林楚茵","謝衣鳯","高嘉瑜","賴惠員","溫玉霞","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","邱泰源","徐志榮","洪申翰","王婉諭","張育美","黃秀芳","陳椒華","范雲","張其祿","林為洲","陳瑩","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","湯蕙禎","莊競程"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；五、委員洪申翰等20\n人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；八、台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129501_00002"}}},{"id":"148861","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148861","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae362186691390baa9f17c6f404a7dd8cd552855f1d3fc986728e607a0322cd073220c318363b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳椒華","委員發言時間":"11:43:27 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11:38:33","影片長度":"00:05:26","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號28974）\n三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員洪申翰等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號10041896））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":326,"end_time":"2023-12-04T11:38:33+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T11:33:07+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":612,"blocks":[["陳委員椒華：（11時32分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員椒華：部長好。我要請教醫療事故預防及爭議處理法，子法跟相關的調解機制已經確定了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["陳委員椒華：確定了？可不可以說明一下現況？因為11月初向部長質詢時有說確定後要給本席辦公室，但一直都沒有得到這個部分。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為1月1日就要開始實施，我們的子法規大概都已經……"],["陳委員椒華：部長答應過要給本席，也就是你們通過就要給本席，好像到現在都還沒拿到。"],["薛部長瑞元：我回去就提供給委員。"],["陳委員椒華：可以說明一下現在有評析嗎？在醫預法施行之後，針對後續的預防及爭議處理的調解制度，現在的修訂情況怎麼樣？可不可以說明一下？"],["薛部長瑞元：在調解過程中，如果有關於醫療的專業部分是有評析的制度。"],["陳委員椒華：對，有訂定可依循的操作手冊或指引嗎？有沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：有訂了。"],["陳委員椒華：可以給本席嗎？今天就可以給嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該可以。"],["陳委員椒華：謝謝。另外，針對今天的人工生殖法修訂，請問部長，我們最困難的是什麼？為什麼院版研議這麼久？到現在都沒辦法確定一個方向，也不開公聽會。"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分我跟委員報告，這裡面牽涉到的法律、倫理、各方的權益保障等等其實滿複雜的，而且上一次比較正式的公聽會差不多是十幾年前的時候，有這樣的……"],["陳委員椒華：所以這十幾年來都沒有再開過公聽會嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，主要是在部裡面針對這個法案內容去做專家會議……"],["陳委員椒華：部裡面的討論而已，是不是？開過幾次會？"],["薛部長瑞元：13次。"],["陳委員椒華：所以還在研議嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，還在研議，這裡面真的……"],["陳委員椒華：現在有化解多少爭議了？"],["薛部長瑞元：現在比較大的爭議點還是在代理孕母部分，但是我們現在的修法方向仍會把代理孕母的相關配套提出來，也就是在我們的草案裡提出來。"],["陳委員椒華：所以已經有一個草案了嗎？代理孕母的部分已經有一個腹案了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是快了，那部分有一個腹案，但是整體的法案還沒有完全好，像是單身女性要接受人工生殖的部分，我們是委託一個研究計畫出去，目前的成果報告還沒來，所以我們也在等。"],["陳委員椒華：請問這兩年內開了幾次會？如果說十幾年來開十幾次會，平均一年開一次會……"],["薛部長瑞元：三年內開13次。"],["吳署長昭軍：三年內開了13次。"],["陳委員椒華：這一年來開了幾次會？"],["吳署長昭軍：今年開2次。"],["陳委員椒華：所以這樣算認真嗎？重視這個議題嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這不是認不認真的問題，是不好處理的問題。"],["陳委員椒華：請問世界上現在有幾個國家有這樣的法律？"],["吳署長昭軍：要看開放的是哪個部分，每個部分不太一樣。"],["陳委員椒華：代理孕母這個部分。"],["吳署長昭軍：代領孕母大概有18個國家。"],["陳委員椒華：所以就是有18個國家已經法制化了……"],["吳署長昭軍：17個國家。"],["陳委員椒華：17個嘛！也不代表說無法執行，希望在有需求的情況之下，衛福部能夠加油！"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，代理孕母這樣的一個制度也不是把國外法搬過來就好，因為這跟我們整個社會的習俗、文化有相當大的關係。"],["陳委員椒華：部長，依照你的預估，如果我們這樣努力下去，衛福部多久可以把草案提出來？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們希望明年就能把草案提出來，不過我必須再度聲明，我們提出草案並不表示我們對每個部分都持贊同的方向。"],["陳委員椒華：瞭解。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們只是提出相關的配套，如果你要通過這一個，就會有這些配套必須處理，然後由貴院來做決定。"],["陳委員椒華：好，謝謝，希望能將草案儘速提出。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請謝衣鳯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3","speakers":["吳欣盈","林楚茵","謝衣鳯","高嘉瑜","賴惠員","溫玉霞","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","邱泰源","徐志榮","洪申翰","王婉諭","張育美","黃秀芳","陳椒華","范雲","張其祿","林為洲","陳瑩","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","湯蕙禎","莊競程"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；五、委員洪申翰等20\n人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；八、台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129501_00002"}}},{"id":"148858","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148858","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae3621866913918c6c8d018a6546d91d430b92bdeaf34c986728e607a0322c1a7608559f084635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:23:17 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11:32:57","影片長度":"00:09:40","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號28974）\n三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員洪申翰等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號10041896））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":580,"end_time":"2023-12-04T11:32:57+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T11:23:17+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":571,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時23分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，今天這個議題目前沒有提出院版。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：請教院版什麼時候會出來？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前國健署研擬的版本，除了單身女性這一塊，因為本來是要委託外面做研究，現在研究案還在進行，所以那一部分的條文還沒出來，其他的部分大概初步的條文都已經有了。"],["黃委員秀芳：連代理孕母的部分也都出來了？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：請教部長，針對人工生殖法的修法方向，爭議比較小的可能是女性配偶及單身女性的部分，應該是比較沒有爭議的。至於代理孕母的部分……"],["薛部長瑞元：可能是。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我希望在立法之前應該要多開公聽會，而且要多聽地方的意見、社會大眾的意見，當然有這個需求，可是我覺得大家也要有一個共識，不要因為我們立了這個法之後又延伸一些其他的問題，大家比較擔心代理孕母可能會有一些倫理上的疑慮，所以我覺得衛福部針對你們現在修法的方向，可能代理孕母這個部分會有一些比較重大的疑慮，或者嬰兒是不是會變成商品化，我覺得衛福部真的要好好地去做，而且要去說明，如果未來你們版本出來之後，地方要有一個共識，是不是我先聽部長的意見？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有錯，尤其是整個人工生殖法，現在如果打算要再進一步往開放方向的話，那代理孕母是一個比較不好處理的部分，因為它涉及到倫理、涉及到法律、涉及到兒童的權益、兒童法律上的地位、兒童的照顧等等這些問題都有，其實也不是很好處理，這中間的相關配套設計不是那麼容易，所以代理孕母會是這裡面最難處理的一塊。至於女女同婚跟單身女性的部分可能相對爭議性會是比較小，還是各自有各自的問題要去處理，也是需要有相關的配套，這中間雖然問題比較小，但是不一定可以那麼順利地去處理。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我是一直認為我們要跨出這一步一定要凝聚大多數人的共識，充分討論然後要有共識，我覺得這是最重要的，不要推了一個然後後面又衍生一些問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：我舉個例子，我們現在對於這幾個面向要去處理的話，比方說單身女性的部分可能就需要開至少一次的公聽會，因為這裡面涉及到什麼樣叫做單身女性可以接受人工生殖，這是第一個；第二個、這些所謂的單身女性可能是有伴侶的，有的是沒伴侶，這兩個要不要分別去做處理，這也是另外一個必須要去處理的議題；第三個、因為可能有伴侶也可能沒有伴侶，如果本來是有伴侶的，中間伴侶關係消滅了，後面要怎麼樣處理；最後當然還有兒童利益的問題，在懷孕過程當中，如果依照民法的話，如果將來是活產的話，他是視同是有權利能力的個體，這個時候要怎麼樣去保障他，然後生下來之後又要怎麼樣去保障這個兒童的權益，老實講問題還滿複雜的。"],["黃委員秀芳：這個問題真的非常多，我覺得在短時間內確實有它的難度，所以我希望這麼困難的一件事需要多方溝通，充分地討論，也希望能夠有院版，不然我現在看的全部都是委員的版本。"],["薛部長瑞元：這就是我剛剛舉例跟委員報告的，光是一個可能是最沒有爭議的所謂的單身女性部分，就有這麼多議題需要大家有共識。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，我們希望未來大家要好好地去討論，因為我想說到12月中可能就是要休會了，在短時間內可能有它的困難，我們希望未來院版出來之後，我們可以在立法院充分地去討論，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：要開公聽會來凝聚共識跟院版出來，兩者不一定要有一定的先後關係，如果先開公聽會，給院版修正的時候做一個參考也可以，或者要等院版出來再召集公聽會也可以。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。接下來我想請教部長有關加熱菸的部分，從今年3月22號新制的菸害防制法通過，有明定禁止電子煙、納管加熱菸，其中加熱菸是必須要通過健康風險評估審查才能上市，可是現在市面上有很多這種加熱菸已經在賣了，我想請教，你們說要通過健康風險評估的審查，目前的進度是怎麼樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：我請署長回答。"],["吳署長昭軍：我們目前大概分成兩個部分，總共有15位委員分成4個小組，由個別小組召開相關的審查，因為有4個重點，每個月大概都會開一次大會，就是小組審查以後要在大會取得共識，每個月按照這樣的一個方式在進行。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，我是想說現在市面上或是店面，有實體店面喔！它都已經在賣了，我不知道你們……"],["吳署長昭軍：我們會加強取締，目前這些都是非法的。"],["黃委員秀芳：我覺得你應該要把健康風險評估審查趕快通過吧！"],["吳署長昭軍：我想程序要完備。"],["黃委員秀芳：是啊！"],["吳署長昭軍：如果安全無虞，我們當然就開放。"],["黃委員秀芳：當然啦！目前實體店面……"],["吳署長昭軍：所以我們的速度也是很快。"],["黃委員秀芳：我現在要講實體店面都已經在賣了，所以我覺得說，你們當然要取締……"],["吳署長昭軍：如果現在實體店面在賣就是違法的，我們就要去取締。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，你們要取締，但問題是它實際上就是存在在那邊，對不對？除非有人去檢舉，像這樣層出不窮的一個問題……"],["吳署長昭軍：我們會主動去查。"],["黃委員秀芳：既然都已經有這樣的一個健康風險評估審查，你是不是要趕快加速？這個風險評估到底是怎麼樣？也不要讓它好像就通過了，然後你又覺得這個不能賣，雖然不能賣，但它實際上就已經在賣了啊！"],["吳署長昭軍：我想還是要為國人健康把關，要比較謹慎地來審查。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，我也同意這樣子。我覺得目前這個問題就是存在在那裡，好不好？"],["吳署長昭軍：好，我們還是會……"],["黃委員秀芳：另外，這個加熱菸有載具，所以會有app的資安問題，前陣子家庭醫學會有特別提到新興菸品、加熱菸的資安疑慮，我看到數發部提出16項需要資安檢驗的IoT項目，並沒有包括新興菸品的載具，我不知道衛福部跟數發部之間，既然家庭醫學會都已經提出這樣的一個疑慮，你們是不是也要把這個訊息轉知給數發部？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們是這樣子，現在是載具要連同健康風險評估送審，目前送審的載具裡面沒有看到這個功能，如果有，我們會跟數發部、經濟部來討論相關事宜。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員欣盈）：謝謝黃委員。","下一位，陳椒華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3","speakers":["吳欣盈","林楚茵","謝衣鳯","高嘉瑜","賴惠員","溫玉霞","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","邱泰源","徐志榮","洪申翰","王婉諭","張育美","黃秀芳","陳椒華","范雲","張其祿","林為洲","陳瑩","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","湯蕙禎","莊競程"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；五、委員洪申翰等20\n人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；八、台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129501_00002"}}},{"id":"148857","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148857","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae362186691399ed0fd2b158c6413dd8cd552855f1d3fc986728e607a03221ec0d7733c1da22a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:22:29 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11:34:50","影片長度":"00:12:21","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就「資安疑慮頻傳，如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-18"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":741,"end_time":"2023-12-04T11:34:50+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T11:22:29+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":833,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時22分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員大家好！主席，可否請財政部莊部長？"],["主席：莊部長。"],["羅委員明才：莊部長你好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：很快就是12月了，12月25號是什麼日子？"],["莊部長翠雲：是行憲紀念日，也是大家的聖誕節。"],["羅委員明才：對，聖誕節是開心的時刻，我記得去年的時候，前任部長、蘇部長曾經在這裡答應我兩件事，因為是Christmas，我還特別記住是聖誕節這個歡樂的季節，我質詢了蘇部長，而蘇部長也答應我兩件事，一個是要廢除印花稅，另外一個就是廢除娛樂稅，至少要作相關修正。一年很快就過去了，不曉得新任的莊部長對於前任蘇部長的承諾有沒有要買單？有沒有要繼續執行，廢除不合時宜的印花稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，印花稅的部分，在上個會期，委員擔任召委時也召開過會議，印花稅因為是地方稅，而且金額也不小，涉及到地方財政，所以各地方政府都反對廢除印花稅，這是這一部分。另外，娛樂稅的部分，娛樂稅因為年代久遠，根據社會經濟環境的一些轉變，也許有一些項目值得討論，或者稅率也值得討論，所以這個部分，上一次也要求、指示做成決議，要財政部再邀請地方政府討論。財政部在今年8月邀請各地方政府討論，22縣市裡面，除了臺東縣以外，其他各縣市都反對廢除娛樂稅，但是項目也好，還有稅率的最高限以及相關內容部分，地方政府都認為也可以做一些調整，我想這個部分上次我們也做了說明。"],["羅委員明才：部長，如果地方大都贊成，你就會從善如流？"],["莊部長翠雲：贊成哪個？贊成這兩個稅都廢掉？沒有，他們都沒有贊成。"],["羅委員明才：是，以邏輯上來說，如果地方都贊成，是不是你就會執行？"],["莊部長翠雲：地方如果贊成的話，可能他們希望的是財政自主，比如以娛樂稅來講，金額其實不高，大概一年就16億到17億之間，但是他們希望地方稅是財政自主，而且有些地方政府，尤其現在在鄉鎮收取的稅收都歸鄉鎮，金額雖不高，但占鄉鎮的財政收入比例不小，所以地方政府到目前為止也都沒有贊成要廢除的。"],["羅委員明才：是，但如果他們贊成的時候呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：他們如果贊成時，可能他們覺得財政上蠻不錯了，不需要這個稅了。"],["羅委員明才：部長，在這樣的邏輯上，應該要找到一個平衡點，以你的聰明才智、你的智慧，應該要對所有事情迎刃而解。"],["莊部長翠雲：你的意思是說如果他們都贊成的話……"],["羅委員明才：我的意思是說，你不想推的就都推給地方說大家不贊成；好，那如果地方都贊成，你要不要推呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：地方如果贊成，我們就要廢除，但是對於他們的財源部分，我們必須給予補足，也就是要有替代財源給他們。"],["羅委員明才：所以你要解決方法……"],["莊部長翠雲：就是要……"],["羅委員明才：現在全國所有地方針對統籌分配稅款，都希望要增加多一點，部長什麼時候要配合地方，全部依照他們的意思推動呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：統籌分配稅款這個部分涉及到財劃法的修正，目前都是按照財劃法規定，還有計算公式算出來的。"],["羅委員明才：是，地方有人反對統籌分配稅款要減少嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：那當然他們……"],["羅委員明才：都希望要增加嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：他們不會希望這個部分減少，而是希望能夠增加……"],["羅委員明才：那就對了！依你的邏輯，當地方都贊成要增加的時候，你就趕快增加啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：這涉及到財劃法的修正，財劃法的修正涉及到要有共識，委員也知道，財劃法的修正涉及到每個地方政府，大家都會就自己有利的條件提出來，目前來說，財政部也已經擬定了六個原則，根據這六個原則，我們也分別在函詢地方政府的意見當中，我們會彙整地方政府的意見來找到共識點。"],["羅委員明才：部長，那個已經彙整十幾年了……"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊！"],["羅委員明才：我們在這邊開會不是第一天……"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["羅委員明才：所以如果是這樣的話，換任何人都可以來當部長啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：你知道共識是很難取得的，沒有共識的話，要修法的話，推動上會有它的障礙。"],["羅委員明才：所以你要展現你的魄力跟魅力啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：嗯！是。"],["羅委員明才：你要怎麼說服大家，怎麼站出來做對的事啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，那就把……"],["羅委員明才：而不是人云亦云。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們要把共識點找出來，還有把歧異點找出來，在歧異點的部分，再慢慢尋求一個往中間靠攏的共識。"],["羅委員明才：所以再過十年會不會定案？"],["莊部長翠雲：再過十年？那我也不知道，不是我們這邊說的。"],["羅委員明才：你這樣講都已經過了十年了，照你這個邏輯，永遠不會定案啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：不會是永遠，不會是永遠啦！"],["羅委員明才：蘇部長一年多前就聖誕節快樂，他很愉快地答應本席廢除印花稅，那你什麼時候做？"],["莊部長翠雲：廢除印花……"],["羅委員明才：你不會在那邊講說明年聖誕節再說吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：呃，我不會這樣說啦！但是印花稅的部分……"],["羅委員明才：那會怎麼說？"],["莊部長翠雲：印花稅的部分，還是跟委員報告，因為是地方的財政，還是地方政府要有共識。"],["羅委員明才：全世界還有哪個地方收印花稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：有，其他地方、其他國家也是有收印花稅的。"],["羅委員明才：有哪一個？"],["莊部長翠雲：這部分我們賦稅署已經調查過，是不是可以說明一下？"],["羅委員明才：美國有收印花稅嗎？"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，每個國家稅制不一樣，但確實現在是有些國家還在收印花稅的，只是課稅的項目不一定完全一樣。"],["羅委員明才：美國有沒有收印花稅？"],["宋署長秀玲：美國我手上是沒有資料、沒有訊息。"],["羅委員明才：日本有沒有收？"],["宋署長秀玲：但是我記得新加坡有，新加坡有。"],["羅委員明才：這個不合時宜，而且稽徵成本又高，所有的部長，包括前蘇部長、院長，也都贊成要廢除，可是就是沒完成啊！"],["宋署長秀玲：可是它是地方政府非常重要的財源。"],["羅委員明才：繞來繞去，可以說是沒有往前進，相當可惜啊！是對的就要堅持，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["羅委員明才：要努力去做，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["羅委員明才：另外一個問題請教國有財產署，最近有很多地的問題，聽說要標的總金額大概一百多億，要提供種樹來減碳，不曉得內容怎麼樣？請曾署長說明。"],["曾署長國基：我們目前大概先篩選出100公頃試辦，這100公頃的土地，大部分農作生產都有問題，所以是用種樹的方式，給民間大概有20年以上的時間，甚至未來能夠取得碳權，合作的……"],["羅委員明才：對，碳權的問題。請問針對這一百多公頃，國家稅收可以增加多少？"],["曾署長國基：因為以前農業用地都是用所謂的農作生產價格，我們這次有一些是用公告地價的方式來收，這不多啦，因為可以種樹的地方都比較偏遠，地價也都比較不高，所以它的目的並不在於收取多少國家的稅收，而是透過這樣的機制來引進，讓大家多種樹。"],["羅委員明才：好，那你剛剛講的100公頃一年大概可以收多少？"],["曾署長國基：幾十萬而已，不到百萬。"],["羅委員明才：請問國有地一共有幾公頃？"],["曾署長國基：關於國有地，國產署現在經管的有22萬公頃。"],["羅委員明才：假設20萬公頃都租出去，國庫的稅收可以增加多少？"],["曾署長國基：如果22萬公頃全部都租出去，因為每個地方的地價不一樣……"],["羅委員明才：沒關係，你剛剛舉最爛的就是十幾萬嘛！"],["曾署長國基：跟委員報告，不能這樣子算，因為22萬公頃裡面有一些是建築用……"],["羅委員明才：22萬……"],["曾署長國基：有一些是建築用地，有一些是要做生態保育的，像濕地等等是不可以做其他活化處分的。"],["羅委員明才：那請你盤點一下，過去國有財產署的地非常多閒置在那邊殊為可惜，應該做最好的利用。"],["曾署長國基：是的，每一塊土地我們都會尋找最好的利用方式。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。","另外我再請教一下部長，對於所有銀行的經營，年底又到了，你覺得在公股銀行裡面，做比較好的是哪一家？"],["莊部長翠雲：每一家都在他們的專業領域裡面努力……"],["羅委員明才：做最爛的是哪一家？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有最爛的啊！"],["羅委員明才：沒有最爛的？所以你都滿意他們的情況？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然要努力，可以做得更好當然就應該要做得更好。"],["羅委員明才：我們看到公營行庫的所有市占以及獲利情況可說是節節敗退，隨便一家民間的金控公司大概都可以抵過全部。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，我想這樣子……"],["羅委員明才：哪一家？"],["莊部長翠雲：公股行庫部分負有政策任務。第二個，公股行庫追求的是穩健，當然我們也需要在穩健當中創新，為民眾提供更好的服務，這是應該要做的。"],["羅委員明才：請合庫蘇總經理。"],["主席：好，蘇總經理。"],["羅委員明才：蘇總，以你的專業來說，你們現在對於美債的部分會不會加持？"],["蘇總經理佐政：我們會。"],["羅委員明才：手上還有多少美債？"],["蘇總經理佐政：我們要回去查一下，因為它每個月都在變動。"],["羅委員明才：大概多少？"],["蘇總經理佐政：美債我不確定，可能……"],["羅委員明才：你會加持美債的原因是什麼？"],["蘇總經理佐政：會加持主要是我們財務部分析美國可能會降息。"],["羅委員明才：對，這個很簡單啊！我們看到國內很多壽險公司手上持有的美債大概已經超過二十幾兆，為什麼別人都在做，公股行庫卻對這個沒有任何積極的動作？"],["蘇總經理佐政：我們有一個……"],["羅委員明才：我記得裡面做得比較好的大概是兆豐吧！兆豐前幾年買了非常多，賺了好幾百億。現場一些董事長私底下就跟我講，他跟操盤的人講，他們都不理他，因為公股行庫的管理誰也不怕誰，他們心裡只有一個管理者就是部長。本席之所以講到這個問題，就是因為公司的治理以及專業的經營事實上是需要加強的，公股的模範生大概就是兆豐吧！有空的話，兆豐應該開開課，幫這些董總多多溝通、灌輸一些新的理念，好不好？請問部長可以這麼做嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員的指教。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，各位請回。","接著請曾銘宗委員、曾銘宗委員、曾銘宗委員不在。","請張其祿委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-18","speakers":["費鴻泰","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","沈發惠","郭國文","李貴敏","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","林楚茵","羅明才","張其祿","陳椒華"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129405","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129405_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就「資安疑慮頻傳，如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1129405_00008"}}},{"id":"148856","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148856","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae362186691392e5ac8648e1ffd2191d430b92bdeaf34c986728e607a032264316327c03bac955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳欣盈","委員發言時間":"11:12:52 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11:23:09","影片長度":"00:10:17","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號28974）\n三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員洪申翰等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號10041896））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":617,"end_time":"2023-12-04T11:23:09+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T11:12:52+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":546,"blocks":[["吳委員欣盈：（11時12分）謝謝，有請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["吳委員欣盈：部長好。本席從就任以來就對臺灣永續的核心議題感到關心，其實這個部分是國人健康以及醫療體系的永續。近年來臺灣的健康醫療上受社會最關注的挑戰就是人口老化的危機，為因應人口的老化危機跟高齡化、少子化，本席在去年一年來有提出許多的相關政策，針對高齡化的議題，本席也提出長照保險的概念，衛福部已經承諾要考量長照財務，對於補充保險的可能性評估，在長照的津貼部分，衛福部也在本席的要求下做各國實施狀況報告；至於少子化的問題，衛福部也認同本席主張的要積極擴張公托供給，解決區域性不均的問題。綜合來看，其實本席對數位醫療跟人工生殖兩項議題的關心，也是今天排這個人工生殖法審查的原因。","不過在討論人工生殖法之前，我想請問部長，本席想確認一下通訊診療辦法的進度，因為在四個星期之前部長有直接說下週會公告，可是大概過一個月的時間了，想請問一下這個部分的進度如何？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，其實我們本來是準備要公告了，但是後來因為很多基層的醫師陸陸續續一直反映過來，他們認為這個還需要有再協調的空間。"],["吳委員欣盈：請問您覺得還要多久時間呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我倒不敢講多久，不過大概頂多是在3個月內我們就可以處理了。"],["吳委員欣盈：3個月內？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為我們可能還要再跟他們開1、2次協調會。"],["吳委員欣盈：好，因為我想跟部長強調，這次的修法有許多的慢性病跟行動不便的民眾，尤其是長者都非常期待，臺灣其實有700萬人都有慢性病的這個需求，同時上次我在質詢的時候說，如果醫療體系是一個國家的話，便是全世界第四或第五大的碳排放國，所以其實這種便利性跟幫國家醫療產業減少碳排放相當重要，麻煩部長要速度快一點，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員欣盈：接下來談這個人工生殖的部分，當然很多委員都說已經拖了16年了，其實學界指出少子化在臺灣的原因不在不婚，而是不生。人工生殖法目前是以不孕夫妻為要求，以傳統的觀念跟時空的變遷其實是無法因應現在的單身婦女晚婚而無法生育的事實，同時也加重對非婚姻子女的歧視。當然本席非常肯定部長在上個月對外表示人工生殖法即將提出修正草案，可是我想瞭解一下，因為現在婦女晚婚的情況變得更加的嚴重，您在這邊是否可以承諾修法的時候要全盤檢查單身女性的人工生殖困境？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個會，其實就四個部分我們大概都會做某種程度的設計，第一個是單身女性，其實應該講是沒有婚姻關係、配偶的女性；第二個是女性同志；第三個是男性同志；第四個是有婚姻關係，但是沒有能夠懷孕者，比方說子宮有缺陷或者是說他的身體狀況不適合懷孕的，懷孕會影響到他的生命的，這四大類我們都會去做設計。我們推出來的這個草案是這四方面都有一些設計，包括它的配套措施，但並不表示衛福部四樣都贊成、都同意，衛福部在這方面並沒有既定的立場。"],["吳委員欣盈：應該是說您剛剛在回答別的委員時也有提到，意思是各種面向您都會提出來，然後要再凝聚社會對每個項目的看法，沒錯吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["吳委員欣盈：好，謝謝您。另外，本席注意到單身女性最重要的問題相對比較婚姻的關係，法律上對未成年的子女最佳利益保障有所不足，此外，本席的草案也有列入相關的制度來解決這個問題，跟部長分享一下。例如代孕的契約應公證；再來就是法院裁定的程序，譬如說比照法律收養的規定，看是否符合子女的最佳利益；再來就是專業洽詢的制度，可以先請專家進行代孕者的身心評估；再來第四個面向就是子女最佳利益的評估與審查，當然我國已經把兒童權利公約國內法化，因此代孕或是人工生殖都需要考量這個為原則，以上這四項是根據英國的法律，人工生殖是需要進行這些審查。請問部長是否能承諾未來在制定臺灣的子女利益評估的時候，瞭解對子女的利益權利的質疑，推動單身女性人工生殖的權益呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：委員提到的是有關於代理孕母的制度，並不是其他的部分，代孕的部分，子女最佳利益的評估跟審查是需要的；第二個，專業諮詢制度是需要的。但是比較有問題的是代孕者，也就是那個孕母，他的利益要怎麼樣去保障，在委員這邊提到的是用契約公證去保障，法院的裁定程序去做補充，剛剛司法院也提到過，其實要法院的裁定去做補充的話，這個程序就會非常麻煩，最大的問題是在代孕契約本身，代孕契約雖然已經經過公證，但是問題點並不是這個契約有效無效的問題，而是能不能強制執行的問題，這個才是最大的問題。"],["吳委員欣盈：好，謝謝部長。接著我想幫同志朋友發聲，我很高興本黨提出的放寬同性收養限制修法在今年5月也順利通過三讀，今年我也參加了「與多元同行」遊行，我瞭解同志朋友們在許多法制上面還有許多努力的空間，例如男同志受限生理的因素無法做人工生殖，必須尋求代理孕母。其實司法院第712號解釋以及歐洲人權公約也承認經營家庭的權利，而修法的最大挑戰是人民是否支持，針對代理孕母的部分，衛福部從民國93年就開始陸續進行民意調查，已經快20年了，請問衛福部有沒有掌握目前民眾對代理孕母的看法如何？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分我請署長回答一下。"],["吳委員欣盈：很快速地回答一下，好嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：針對整個代孕的部分，我剛剛提到目前在草擬階段是把對象都含在裡面，包含男男都在裡面，但是還是要尋求社會最大的共識。"],["吳委員欣盈：OK，謝謝。因為國內沒有開放，不鼓勵男同志所想要的代理孕母部分，總統府資政李茂盛醫師等等都有發表法律上的限制，國內有十幾萬人需要人工生殖，許多人因為要跑去國外接受治療，光是醫療費用就要超過400萬，很多時候也因為金錢花費高、語言不通等等，以及醫療環境不熟悉而面臨一些風險，如果人工生殖法能讓同婚伴侶、單身女性適用的話，同時讓代理孕母合法化，也可以減少少子化的問題。","最後總結，我希望能夠理解衛福部所說的開放代理孕母，我非常關心子宮商品化的問題，本席也要特別強調，所謂的女性生育自主不只是掌握生的權利，更要包含不生的自主權益。我當然瞭解要取得平衡是相當不容易的，但是如果不面對的話，行政院也不提出版本的話，其實就會原地踏步，我也期待衛福部能夠提出讓社會大眾滿意的修法草案，感謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請黃委員秀芳發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3","speakers":["吳欣盈","林楚茵","謝衣鳯","高嘉瑜","賴惠員","溫玉霞","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","邱泰源","徐志榮","洪申翰","王婉諭","張育美","黃秀芳","陳椒華","范雲","張其祿","林為洲","陳瑩","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","湯蕙禎","莊競程"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；五、委員洪申翰等20\n人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；八、台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129501_00002"}}},{"id":"148855","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148855","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae36218669139d8222a5a9fd1ff3c91d430b92bdeaf34c986728e607a03224247f7ad8659320c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張育美","委員發言時間":"11:01:42 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11:12:36","影片長度":"00:10:54","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號28974）\n三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員洪申翰等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號10041896））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":654,"end_time":"2023-12-04T11:12:36+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T11:01:42+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":484,"blocks":[["張委員育美：（11時1分）謝謝主席。請衛福部部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好！"],["張委員育美：部長好！部長，這幾天在檢驗人工生殖法相關資料的時候，我看到媒體報導的一段描述，指出人工生殖法涉及的生物科技、女性主義、生命倫理的交纏或許遠比DNA的雙股螺旋複雜多了。相當深刻地描述人工生殖法討論過程所面臨的困難。","回首過去到現在，衛福部分別在93年及101年舉辦代理孕母公民共識會議，期間亦召開了無數次的專家會議，不過衛福部卻選擇在總統大選前，候選人訴求以代理孕母作為少子女化對策之一後，才釋出修法的進程，婦女團體也質疑是否選舉前有倉促的決定。所以要請問國健署，國健署第一步是否要踏出，把人工生殖法草案送到衛福部？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們這三年多就一直在討論，我們總共開了13次的專家相關會議，也擬定了相關的草案，目前這個法案還在國健署。"],["張委員育美：會不會還是說說而已？選前又拿出來，所以會不會說說，又沒有再進行？所以第一步……"],["吳署長昭軍：這跟選舉沒有關係，我們就一直在進行當中，我說過三年半開了13次。"],["張委員育美：對，剛剛王婉諭委員就說不要一直開會而已，沒有結果，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個內容恐怕不是那麼容易就能夠確認的。"],["張委員育美：所以我說第一步，我強調的是第一步，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為現在其實國健署的版本還缺一塊，就是未婚或者單身女性的這一塊，這個……"],["張委員育美：你說什麼？單身……"],["薛部長瑞元：單身或者是未婚女性這一個部分的話，因為我們有委託研究案委託出去，這個報告還沒有回來，所以在這個部分會比較delay一點，但是我們的草案其實可以一邊來進行。"],["張委員育美：剛剛部長講到單身女性，那有沒有規劃如何保障，避免女性身體成為工具，而遭受到商業的剝削呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：大部分提到這個都指的是代理孕母……"],["張委員育美：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：都指的是代理孕母，如果要讓代理孕母變成是一個選項的話，就必須對剛剛委員提到的這些要有很好的配套措施……"],["張委員育美：對，配套措施。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以這一個部分當然規劃會更為複雜。"],["張委員育美：對，部長知道美國加州人工生殖規範是很寬鬆的，帶動了當地人工生殖產業的發展，而具強勁卵子市場需求，就有人力仲介會在臺灣招募女性遠赴美國捐卵，但這樣的做法不僅涉及違反美國入境法規，因為他可能是觀光簽證，所以違反它的法規，簽證是不能去捐卵的，也違反了我國人工生殖法禁止居間仲介的規定，事後還可能遭遇健康風險，所謂健康風險是一直要去打排卵針，可能腹壓會增加，甚至可能遭受不肖商人剝削報酬。這些赴美捐卵的案例都明目張膽地出現在社群網路中，請問國健署、醫事司分別有什麼查處的作為？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們如果有發現的話，相關的作為一定要做……"],["張委員育美：怎麼查處？"],["吳署長昭軍：就沒有看到，如果有看到，我們就會……"],["張委員育美：我們在網路上都有看到，社群網路上。"],["吳署長昭軍：只要有，我們都會查處。"],["張委員育美：好，我要提醒你，都有，所以我覺得國健署要再認真看一下。","除了我剛剛提到代孕者權益的保護之外，接著我要跟部長討論目前面臨少子化的問題，目前衛福部提供一般不孕症的夫妻首次申請不孕症治療，就是試管嬰兒，最高補助10萬，再次申請最高補助是6萬；不過對於已達適孕年齡，但尚未準備懷孕，也就是未婚或者是不準備懷孕而先採取凍卵的女性，就缺乏了政策的協助。對於每年6,000元到1萬元不等的冷凍保存費，據我所知，我住在桃園市，桃園市已經實施，提供每人總計最高2.2萬，桃園是第1年冷凍費用1萬，第2年6,000，第3年6,000，總共就2.2萬；新竹是3.1萬凍卵補助；臺北是規劃符合特定條件者，也就是40歲以下罹癌的女性，從明年起提供3.2萬補助，請問中央能不能評估跟進桃園和臺北市？"],["薛部長瑞元：臺北市的這個所謂罹癌女性去補助是有它的道理……"],["張委員育美：明年啦！明年。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為當他接受不管是放射治療，還是化學療法的時候……"],["張委員育美：對，需要先取卵凍卵。"],["薛部長瑞元：可能會對他的卵細胞有影響。但是其他的部分，像桃園、新竹，他們的補助就是3年的凍卵，3年以後就沒有了……"],["張委員育美：一般第5年會……"],["薛部長瑞元：如果以現在的規定的話，自己去懷孕就好了。"],["張委員育美：自己去取回來的只有8%，到第5年，一般就凍卵……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以事實上它的利用率是非常低的……"],["張委員育美：凍到第3年，給他3年就好……"],["薛部長瑞元：你補助3年，讓他3年可以凍卵，3年之後呢？"],["張委員育美：取回來的只有8%，到第5年，比較少。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊！你要等這3年，不如就不用凍，3年後你的卵還很好，你就自己可以懷孕了。"],["張委員育美：我建議衛福部也跟進，因為這個是對我們未婚婦女……"],["薛部長瑞元：這種社會性的凍卵其實全世界大概沒有在補助的，這叫做社會性的……"],["張委員育美：對，社會性的。"],["薛部長瑞元：他不是因為醫療的需求，像臺北市的這個40歲以下罹癌女性是醫療的需求，這倒是可以去考慮。"],["張委員育美：好。","最後我要請問的就是，我們兒科醫師的招募率這4年間從98%降低到七成，所以很擔心將來重症兒童無醫師可醫，我要提醒，國民黨在106年時曾要求將少子化這個對策納入前瞻基礎建設，少子化不是一夕之間，它是一陣子的，我請問你，針對過去6年之間少子化的政策，衛福部有成效嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：少子化的對策在過去一直是在處理的，對於托育、托嬰的這個需求，我們讓他有一個高額的補助，然後讓這些年輕的爸媽們無後顧之憂。至於說……"],["張委員育美：我再請問有關小兒科醫師的缺。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個是在最近我們推出的一個優化兒童醫療照護計畫裡面來做這方面的一些鼓勵……"],["張委員育美：對，11月1號起。"],["薛部長瑞元：詳細的情形我們也會對外逐步地去做說明，比方說我們分為核心醫院、重點醫院，核心醫院負責訓練新的兒科醫師，它一方面對於年輕醫師進入研究醫師的部分會有一些補助，另外也會補助他到國外去受訓。"],["張委員育美：我建議政府，面臨醫師人力問題有一個解決辦法，請問可不可以改變思維，重視服務的品質跟價值，而不是讓小兒科醫師迷失在服務量，這樣就可以讓更多的醫師來選擇小兒科。不要用健保，就是量嘛！它沒有強調品質與價值，我們的小孩子這麼寶貝，剛剛說11月1號成立幾個，幼兒專責醫師制度、提升醫院兒童急重症照護量能等，這些都有，我強調的是，是不是針對小兒科醫師重視品質比重視量更重要，你覺得呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這當然也是一個方向，就不是只有去重視量，而且兒科為什麼會比較凋零下來，住院醫師減少，其實一個原因就是在健保論量計酬的這個制度之下，他的收入一定是不好。兒科用的藥少、做的檢查少，兒科的人數又少，所以它是因為這樣一個客觀的環境之下，讓年輕醫師一直不願意去，這部分我們要去……"],["張委員育美：部長，造成少子化的原因很多，不是只有衛福部而已，衛福部在生育照護政策上有努力之外，其實職場環境跟勞動部有關，職場環境有沒有非常友善，還有社會條件、住房政策、有沒有買不起房子等等，這些都需要更多跨部會的努力，不是只有衛福部，所以我覺得還是跨部會的合作，對嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["張委員育美：這樣子解決少子化問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["張委員育美：好，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝委員。"],["主席（張委員育美代）：下一位吳欣盈委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3","speakers":["吳欣盈","林楚茵","謝衣鳯","高嘉瑜","賴惠員","溫玉霞","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","邱泰源","徐志榮","洪申翰","王婉諭","張育美","黃秀芳","陳椒華","范雲","張其祿","林為洲","陳瑩","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","湯蕙禎","莊競程"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；五、委員洪申翰等20\n人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；八、台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129501_00002"}}},{"id":"148854","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148854","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae362186691395f70616d0dfbc18bdd8cd552855f1d3fc986728e607a0322544dd057527526835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:12:27 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11:22:20","影片長度":"00:09:53","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就「資安疑慮頻傳，如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-18"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":593,"end_time":"2023-12-04T11:22:20+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T11:12:27+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":787,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時12分）謝謝主席，主席有請莊翠雲莊部長，還有財政資訊中心的張文熙張主任。"],["主席：兩位請。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長好。我想今天的專案報告主要是關於資安疑慮的部分，包括我們的稅務機關跟公股行庫怎麼樣來加強相關的防護，剛剛其實一些委員也都有問到。本席找了一些內部相關的原則，財政部的資安防護措施，成立資安健檢跟數位鑑識團隊會每年定期來辦理相關的財稅弱點掃描跟滲透測試，還有資安健診，如果財政部是希望逐年來做審定的話，但是根據財資中心的資通安全稽核原則，是另外一個部分，等於說財政部希望是每年定期，但是財政部有關於資安的部分是委由財資中心來處理對嗎？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["林委員楚茵：但是我們基本上還是有一些審定的原則，包括比如說3年內你都沒有被進行過資通安全稽核的，這是第一個，可能容易被抽到；第二個是2年內如果你有發生一些資安案件，你可能要來進行；再來就是沒有完成資安責任等級的辦理事項就會需要，所以原則上會變成是3年才稽核一次嗎？張主任。"],["張主任文熙：報告委員，主要是因為資安健檢的人力跟時程，沒有辦法每年每個機關都完成健檢，所以我們就按照列選的原則去挑選，最重要的先做，比如說近2年有發生資安事件的會優先，如果這幾年都表現良好，那我們可能採取書面的審查。"],["林委員楚茵：所以在人力的部分，現在整體來做資通安全稽核的人力一共是多少？然後他們的量能，比如以一年來說的話，大概能夠完成多少公股行庫或者是我們各個區所謂的稅務單位？以你們現有的人力跟你一年能夠處理的量能大概是多少？"],["張主任文熙：跟委員報告，我們現有正式的資安人員是4位。"],["林委員楚茵：只有4位？"],["張主任文熙：對，其他的都是兼職的成員。"],["林委員楚茵：幾位？"],["張主任文熙：大概是21位左右。"],["林委員楚茵：所以這樣加起來就是25位，然後你們一年的量能可以查多少的單位或是多少的部門？"],["張主任文熙：弱點掃描這部分大概是22個機關，那健診是在稽核的前一個禮拜我們會做健診的作業，通常一次健診大概要花一個禮拜。因為這些兼職人員平常還有其他的行政業務，所以目前他們安排的量能是很滿的，我們除了財政部自己的健診團隊去健診之外，另外我們在各機關都有委外的稽核作業。"],["林委員楚茵：所以我可以有一個數字嗎？因為財政部當然是希望每年要來做健診，但是顯然以現有的人力，比如就是專職4位然後兼職25位的話，要做到每年是不可能的，最多就是這3年內被抽一次，或是2年內有發生事情。所以我這樣講吧！一年內財資中心本身能夠健診或者是弱點掃描幾個單位？資安稽核的部分。"],["張主任文熙：健診大概是3個到5個。"],["林委員楚茵：3個到5個？然後弱點掃描？"],["張主任文熙：弱點掃描幾乎會全部做，因為弱點掃描有範圍，總共是22個機關構，包括公股的臺、土、輸、菸酒公司等等……"],["林委員楚茵：好，本席會這樣問是因為我們的資安定期稽核到底有沒有確實呢？我特別製作了這個表，也是跟財資中心你們拿的資料，現在其實只有關務署跟土銀有達到定期稽核的標準，為什麼我抓近5年？是因為我們從108年之後開始專注於資安稽核的部分，然後除了關務署是A等級之外，土銀是有機會在我們所定的標準，3年以內有機會被做到一次之外，其實包括像高雄國稅局，這5年來都沒有，然後你自己財資中心，等一下這個我也會問，就是財資中心稽核別人，那誰稽核你們呢？再來，包括臺銀人壽、臺銀的綜合證券、臺銀的保經等等，等於是說其實我們希望達到，但是卻沒有辦法實質地做，可能連3年都沒辦法，5年內都會有人沒有被稽核到，像這個部分是因為人力不足，還是認為有其他方式來做填補就夠了？"],["張主任文熙：我想我們目前填補的方式就是有委外稽核的部分，各機關會選英國標準協會或其他的稽核機關來進行委外的稽核，來補充內部稽核的不足，一方面是由外部的機關來稽核，角度會比較不一樣，如果同一年有兩組以上的稽核人員進駐的時候，對機關來講其實壓力也比較大。像高雄國稅局這個案例是比較特殊的，因為一方面它之前沒有資安事件，另外就是剛好在排定的時候是碰到疫情，疫情的時間就有比較多顧慮，有人力等等的……"],["林委員楚茵：所以最近會補上嗎？"],["張主任文熙：會。"],["林委員楚茵：因為過去都沒有，這5年如果發生什麼事情的時候……"],["張主任文熙：會優先。"],["林委員楚茵：滲透都已成啊！"],["張主任文熙：所以會優先。"],["林委員楚茵：5年要布建、滲透都會完成。我列出這個表只是來提醒，就是確實你們從1年已經退到變3年，3年之後又有一些單位是這5年來完全都沒有進行所謂資安定期的稽核，問題很可能就在這樣的過程當中出現資安的危機。另外，部長，如果財資中心是負責來稽核大家，但是他們卻在5年內沒有被稽核到，那這個部分到底是歸誰呢？本席去瞭解的時候，發現是屬於數發部要來進行所謂更高層級的資安核定，如果是這樣的話，財政部跟數發部跟資安中心在彼此財資中心的稽核部分有跟上數發部的腳步嗎？數發部到底有沒有針對這些二級或獨立機關的稽核是2年來一次？以本席所瞭解是這5年都沒有，財資中心前一陣子還有所謂電子發票服務平台登錄系統出現了一些危機，所以這到底是沒有稽核到？還是沒有配合到？因為很有可能問題就出在這裡啊！"],["張主任文熙：是，報告委員，財資中心的稽核，外部稽核是行政院委由數發部稽核我們……"],["林委員楚茵：對。"],["張主任文熙：最近5年內已經接受過三次稽核，另外除了……"],["林委員楚茵：你們最近已經有接受過三次？"],["張主任文熙：對。"],["林委員楚茵：時間點？"],["張主任文熙：107年、111年還有109年都有接受過行政院的稽核。"],["林委員楚茵：結果呢？"],["張主任文熙：結果都還不錯。"],["林委員楚茵：都有符合標準嗎？"],["張主任文熙：是，是，都有符合標準。電子發票部分，因為這主要是跟使用者的習慣有關係，所以在這個稽核的部分，沒有辦法透過系統直接判讀，這部分我們在未來稽核技術上，會增加對使用者習慣的考核來補充、彌補，除了外部稽核，我們中心內部同仁也會稽核，每年會自己稽核兩次，我們自己有資安科，會稽核像國稅、地稅、發票這些，一年至少稽核兩次，同時我們每年也會請第三方稽核公司，像中心是請英國標準協會來幫我們做整體的檢核。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為稽核的部分是財資中心要負責，你也說到了會有人力部分的問題，但就像本席整理出來的這個表，我想要更明確瞭解為什麼會有一些單位是5年內完全沒有做到稽核？希望你們給我一份報告，其實我希望的重點是，資訊安全、資通安全部分是現在最要面臨的問題，希望不要變成好像是作文比賽，或者好像是交差了事，我相信財資中心有一定的專業，因為時間有限，希望會後給我一個更清楚的報告，好嗎？"],["張主任文熙：是，是。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝，各位請回。","接著請羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-18","speakers":["費鴻泰","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","沈發惠","郭國文","李貴敏","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","林楚茵","羅明才","張其祿","陳椒華"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129405","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129405_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就「資安疑慮頻傳，如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1129405_00008"}}},{"id":"148853","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148853","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae36218669139084ce747a52dfb4fdd8cd552855f1d3fc986728e607a0322be095dc505d74aa65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高嘉瑜","委員發言時間":"10:57:17 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11:12:12","影片長度":"00:14:55","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就「資安疑慮頻傳，如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-18"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":895,"end_time":"2023-12-04T11:12:12+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T10:57:17+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":719,"blocks":[["高委員嘉瑜：（10時57分）謝謝主席，請財政部部長及八家公股行庫的董事長。"],["主席：好，各位請出列。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["高委員嘉瑜：部長好。首先第一個問題是之前我們也曾問過，公股行庫在存戶死亡後辦理定存的轉存情形，有四家公股行庫是跟民營一樣會依約自動轉期，但是有四家公股行庫是不轉期改活存，這四家分別是臺銀、土銀、合庫跟華銀，我們認為這四家的存戶權益明顯受到影響，所以我們要求金管會能夠儘速處理，也要求銀行公會還有財政部能夠先來做，就這個部分到底我們在等什麼？為什麼其他行庫都可以站在存戶的立場依約自動轉期，唯獨這四家行庫不能轉期而要改活期呢？這個部分能不能跟其他行庫一樣來做呢？可不可以回復一下？這四家是臺銀、土銀、合庫跟華銀。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，請臺銀、土銀還有合庫跟華銀來說明。"],["呂董事長桔誠：我想這沒有違反任何法律的問題啦。"],["高委員嘉瑜：對，但是存戶的權益受到影響了，很明顯的，其他民營行庫還有其他四家公股行庫都會站在存戶的立場協助他們，現在只有你們這四家行庫，雖然沒有違反法令，但問題是這四家行庫的存戶明顯在權益上是矮人一截的，如果讓這些存戶知道，是不是會轉存到其他公股行庫或民營行庫？對這四家存戶的利益或權益其實也受到影響，所以我們認為應該要站在存戶的立場上，能夠一視同仁的處理，這個對於銀行來講有什麼困難嗎？"],["呂董事長桔誠：我想這個部分我們可以來研議啦，因為事實上過去在高利率的時候也發生過定存在最後回過頭來……"],["高委員嘉瑜：對，但是現在全臺灣就只剩你們四家──臺銀、土銀、合庫跟華銀。"],["呂董事長桔誠：這個我說明一下可以嗎？"],["高委員嘉瑜：好。"],["呂董事長桔誠：因為過去也有一種情況是如果繼續做定存，後來如果中途要做什麼處理的時候，就有利息打折甚至不支付利息的問題，所以這個要全盤考量，不只是為銀行，而是站在存戶的立場……"],["高委員嘉瑜：那至少可以讓存戶有一個選擇的權利或是怎麼樣，我不知道，但是目前站在存戶的……"],["呂董事長桔誠：但他要事前選擇啦！"],["高委員嘉瑜：應該是以存戶的利益為優先考量。"],["呂董事長桔誠：那當然、那當然，我贊成，但是這裡面涉及到的前提是死亡後他如何選擇，這是一個問題，所以我們是不是……"],["高委員嘉瑜：這個部分我們希望能夠有一致性的規範來處理，所以這個最快到底什麼時候？因為我們已經問了一個多月了。目前你們有討論過、內部對這個有沒有一致的共識呢？"],["呂董事長桔誠：我想這個我們會來討論……"],["高委員嘉瑜：所以大概還要多久的時間？"],["呂董事長桔誠：因為這涉及整體還有法遵種種，甚至裡面的系統，給我們一個月好嗎？"],["高委員嘉瑜：還在再一個月？這已經一個多月了，全臺灣就只有你們4家耶！"],["呂董事長桔誠：我想這個……"],["高委員嘉瑜：兩個禮拜啦！兩個禮拜好不好？應該很快，因為就只有你們4家的問題。"],["呂董事長桔誠：我們嘗試好不好？我不敢承諾兩個禮拜，但是因為它涉及的部、處很多……"],["高委員嘉瑜：好，儘快！謝謝董事長。"],["呂董事長桔誠：謝謝。"],["高委員嘉瑜：另外，同樣是公股行庫，但是生育津貼的福利差一大截。我們接到員工投訴，同樣都是公股行庫，但是華南銀行生第一胎可以補助10萬，第二胎是20萬；一銀產假最多，有58天，產檢假、陪產（檢）假都有8天，但是它第一胎是10萬，第二胎是15萬。依序下來，最糟糕的是臺銀和土銀，臺銀和土銀不僅沒有補助，而且只有留職停薪、復職率百分之百，相較其他行庫來講，真的是落差非常地大；臺企銀是第一胎只有5,000，第二胎1萬。為什麼其他行庫可以補助到最高10萬，甚至8萬，有的變成3萬（彰銀），越來越差，為什麼有這樣的落差呢？部長可以跟我們說明一下嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。先跟委員報告，泛公股的部分是公司治理，他們怎麼樣去訂定相關的補助，我想這是公司內部的規則，至於國營行庫臺銀和土銀這個部分，我們知道委員很關心這件事情，因為涉及薪資的問題，我們也函詢行政院人事行政總處可不可以也像泛公股一樣給予生育補助，得到的答復第一是單一薪俸，所以在薪俸裡面不能有這個項目，但是可以從職工福利金裡面去辦理，也就是職工福利金可以，因為職工福利金是從他們的營業獲益裡面去提撥的，所以可以在這裡面辦理，而職工福利是由他們的委員會來做這個決定。這個部分財政部基本上是支持各公股行庫對員工生育的部分都給予補助，只是這兩個……"],["高委員嘉瑜：因為這件事情已經討論很久了……"],["莊部長翠雲：這兩個體制上不一樣。"],["高委員嘉瑜：之前也曾經承諾說要提供一胎10萬元的育兒津貼，但是後來一直卡在財政部和人事行政總處，既然現在已經可以從職工福利金等等去做移撥，請問最快什麼時候可以讓員工知道這樣的好消息？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們當然希望儘快，不過要看臺銀和土銀對職工福利金的討論，我想這個要讓臺銀和土銀……"],["高委員嘉瑜：請臺銀呂董事長說明，謝謝。"],["呂董事長桔誠：我也贊成有這些，但是誠如剛剛部長所說，我們是單一薪俸，薪資明定，不含在裡面，如果用職工福利金，我們內部也討論過，工會表達說這是大家的錢，所以目前還沒有答案，如果有答案，我們一定很樂意跟委員報告。"],["高委員嘉瑜：政府鼓勵生育，因為少子化的問題等等，公股銀行真的要帶頭做起，結果你看我們公股銀行的福利完全沒有，國營行庫更是只有留職停薪，連個補助都沒有，臺企銀也只有5,000，彰銀只有3萬，矮人一截，說實話對於同樣是公股銀行的員工來講，落差的相對剝奪感真的很大，所以這些理由和藉口對於這些銀行的員工而言，我覺得也聽不下去！所以如果有誠意儘速協助，財政部和人事行政總處應該要站在鼓勵生育的立場，儘量撥補相關的經費。這件事情已經討論了非常久，之前也曾經承諾過員工10萬塊一胎，結果到現在還說在研議、討論，我覺得這樣的誠意真的是大打折扣耶！"],["莊部長翠雲：方式上是，我們絕對是支持、鼓勵員工養育子女，但是因為涉及薪俸以及職工福利金的運用，職工福利金的運用他們有一個委員會去做討論……"],["高委員嘉瑜：這也討論一陣子了，這個部分最快多久之內可以給我們一個回復？就是你們討論如何去補足這一塊，或是你們有沒有什麼進一步可以去協助或是給予生育獎勵的相關計畫能夠來研議的，讓員工可以看到你們的誠意？這部分是不是也在一個月的時間內給我們一個回復？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們促請職工福利委員會加速討論，能夠有一個結果。"],["高委員嘉瑜：其他像臺企銀、彰銀等等的問題，我們也希望公股行庫應該要一視同仁，對於一樣的問題，「平平是」公股行庫，但是待遇、津貼卻真的差很大！不管是對存戶或員工來講，真的是有相對剝奪感。","此外，有關今天討論的資安議題，我們也同樣要來問，公股行庫目前定期的資安查核到底有多少家在做？"],["莊部長翠雲：都有在做。"],["高委員嘉瑜：總共查核多少家？"],["莊部長翠雲：查核？"],["高委員嘉瑜：對啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，公股行庫的資安查核，金管會是中央目的事業主管機關。"],["高委員嘉瑜：你們現在就是要強化財稅機關和公股行庫的資安防護嘛，那你們這些財稅機關和公股行庫總共有幾家？"],["莊部長翠雲：我不知道您說幾家是什麼……"],["高委員嘉瑜：就是你們現在所謂的定期資安稽核到底要稽核幾家？"],["莊部長翠雲：都要……"],["高委員嘉瑜：總共有幾家要稽核？"],["莊部長翠雲：稽核分兩個，一個是財稅資料中心，因為它的責任等級是A級，它的稽核是由行政院來稽核，所以近5年已經稽核了3次，至於各國稅機關，還有財政部所屬的機關，除了由各機關自行檢測之外，我們也會去做稽核。"],["高委員嘉瑜：所以總共有幾家？因為據我瞭解是22家，然後5年才做一次，但是我們收到的內部消息是其實根本就沒有真的在做，所以才會一直爆發資安平台的漏洞，包括財資中心自己的財政部發票平台就爆出資安漏洞，基層企業沿用預設的密碼，這是今年5月被白帽駭客揭露的資安缺失。如果你說5年做3次或是5年做1次，為什麼財資中心這麼大的漏洞自己完全不知道，所謂的資安稽核到底在稽核什麼？有沒有稽核到自己？如果這麼明顯的漏洞都還看不到的話，不禁讓人質疑這個資安稽核的成效在哪裡！甚至如果依照個人資料保護法，當初電子發票平台資料外洩的時候，財政部有沒有通知這些所屬的公司、這些個人，他的資料外洩、帳號被盜用了？有多少？有沒有通知？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員提的弱密碼這件事情我們確實已經做了大幅改進，也就是說不能再用原始密碼，都必須要去做變更，而且定期……"],["高委員嘉瑜：這也是被白帽駭客揭露才知道的！"],["莊部長翠雲：是、是、是，這個部分我們確實要改進。"],["高委員嘉瑜：所以這就是大家質疑你們資安稽核有沒有落實的原因。包括我們的報稅資料也曾經有外洩等狀況，所以大家對於財政部所謂的資安稽核如何讓人家進一步安心是有很多質疑的。就這個部分你們今天的報告其實說明得還不夠清楚，我們也希望財政部就這些問題能再具體提出相關的檢討。到目前為止，我們所看到的除了告訴我們會定期稽核，其他都是照本宣科，明顯的資安問題沒有改善！在現在大家對資安要求非常高的情況之下，我們也認為財政部應該要跟相關單位確實地去做資安漏洞的防堵，這是非常重要的。以數發部來講，數發部的量能也非常有限，對於政府機關的資安稽核到底是誰要來做統籌？誰要來負責？還是最後大家各踢皮球？這個是我們所擔心的。","最後是關於新青安貸款，因為很多人在質疑。現在雖然傳出3個月已經撥款八百多億，有1.2萬首購族、多少人在排隊，但是被外界質疑的就是，所謂的「新青安」只要18歲以上都算，18歲以上就是包括80歲也可以列入新青安安心成家的房貸方案，甚至只要名下沒有自用住宅，不管他曾經買過、買過幾戶，都可以鑽這個漏洞來申請新青安貸款，不只被質疑是不是重複申購，也讓幫助年輕人買房這件事情的美意大打折扣，這部分部長是不是也可以說明一下？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們雖然說年滿18歲、到80歲也可以，但是根據我們統計，75%都是40歲以下的人。第二個，我們是規定要沒有住宅的人，所以是首購族。我想，這個新青安貸款對於首購族還有名下沒有其他房屋的住宅貸款……"],["高委員嘉瑜：所以這個漏洞就是我剛剛所講的嘛！年滿18歲就可以，沒有最高年齡上限；第二，你所謂的首購是只要名下沒有自有住宅就是首購……"],["莊部長翠雲：然後他也……"],["高委員嘉瑜：不管他曾經買過或者是剛賣出等等，只要名下現在沒有都算，所以這個就變成說對於那些真正的首購族、真正的年輕人來講，有沒有更優惠的方案？還是說這個所謂的新青安，美其名是青年安心成家，但其實這個青年就是一個名義上的青年？"],["莊部長翠雲：但是他要沒有房子，而且沒有其他房貸才可以啊！雖然我們叫青安，但是我覺得如果他需要自有的房屋來居住的話，其實政府給予相關的一些協助跟補助，我覺得是有必要讓沒有房子的人能夠買到他想要買的房子。"],["高委員嘉瑜：對，因為最近有一個副總統候選人，他也在教年輕人買房的訣竅，就是買一間賣一間、買一間賣一間，房價一直在漲，利用這樣的方式就可以去不斷地貸款、不斷地買房。你這個新青安再加上這個副總統候選人這樣子的言論，是不是就是讓投機客成為一個投資的工具，他不斷地鑽這個漏洞去買房、去貸款，然後去賣房子、去炒高房價？這個就是我們所擔心的啊！類似這樣子的狀況，會不會不斷地重複申貸，成為另外一個炒房投機客的工具？如何來防堵，不要變成這些有心人炒房的工具，而讓真正想要買房子、沒有錢的年輕人，他貸不到款、買不到房子，這個是我們最擔心質疑的，你在這個政策裡面的這些漏洞，大家都看到了，但是你怎麼去防堵？怎麼樣去防止投機客炒房？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，房屋是一個高價的資產，買進賣出、買進賣出，其實並不是這麼容易，然後還有稅的問題，其實短期交易在我們來說，房地2.0的課稅是重稅的，所以不是這麼容易買進賣出、買進賣出。另外，我們新青安貸款的人，他必須身上沒有其他的貸款。"],["高委員嘉瑜：所以他就是賣出了，賣出之後再利用這樣的方式不斷地重複嘛！所以這個就是我們現在所擔心的，我們也希望財政部就這個部分能夠積極地去研議，尤其是當有人在鼓吹讓年輕人開始這樣買房、賣房去炒作的時候，這個就是裡面的其中一個漏洞，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會特別注意，謝謝委員。"],["高委員嘉瑜：謝謝部長。"],["主席：各位請回，謝謝。","費鴻泰委員改書面質詢。","接著請林楚茵委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-18","speakers":["費鴻泰","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","沈發惠","郭國文","李貴敏","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","林楚茵","羅明才","張其祿","陳椒華"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129405","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129405_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就「資安疑慮頻傳，如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1129405_00008"}}},{"id":"148852","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148852","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae36218669139290164507bc14a9a91d430b92bdeaf34c986728e607a03220d89127cd4efb96d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王婉諭","委員發言時間":"10:51:39 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分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129501_00002"}}},{"id":"148851","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148851","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae362186691391f11713d7fe7ab1c91d430b92bdeaf34c986728e607a03227353aa92d074c9205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"10:39:43 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- 10:46:01","影片長度":"00:11:08","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就「資安疑慮頻傳，如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-18"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":668,"end_time":"2023-12-04T10:46:01+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T10:34:53+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":582,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時34分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請財政部莊部長，另外請關務署彭署長、國庫署蕭署長以及財政資訊中心張主任，當聽到問題的時候就自動上來。"],["主席：好，4位請。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好！部長，考你一個國文，什麼叫做備詢？備詢，是不是我問你答叫做備詢？"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你回答詢問是用嘴巴講還是用肢體語言告訴我？還是要打手語告訴我？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然是用嘴巴講啦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，嘴巴講。在本委員會、在國會的備詢，要對著麥克風講才算數，對不對？是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：我會對著麥克風講……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果沒有對著麥克風講，就沒有紀錄嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：我會對著麥克風講。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那請問一下，如果我問你Yes or No的問題，要你蹲下表示是、要你站著表示不是，你會照做嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想我會對著麥克風跟委員用明確的表示，就是說是或不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對著麥克風講，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：嗯啊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：今天剛剛表現的「叫大家舉手」，那叫表決，今天列席的官員不是本委會的委員，沒有表決的權力，你們是來備詢的，不是來舉手表決的，有問題，直接對著麥克風講，會不會？告訴我，會不會？你，就是部長你。"],["莊部長翠雲：我是對著麥克風跟委員報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：告訴所有與會的列席官員，有委員質詢問題、備詢，對著麥克風講，不要給我舉手，也不要給我蹲下，可以做到嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想對於委員的質詢，我們都尊重，我們都是給予……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對著麥克風講，這裡不是小學堂，這裡是國會殿堂。如果有委員要把自己當作幼兒園的教師，那是他的事情，請你們不要表現出一副像幼兒園的小朋友一樣，好不好？可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，剛剛的問題，入境免稅額，什麼都躺啦，我們這個年紀的朋友常常說過生日的時候，18歲以後的生日都寄在銀行，沒有在過增加蠟燭一根的，免稅額2萬元幾年了？入境免稅額。"],["莊部長翠雲：18年到現在，有一段時間了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：34年了，物價調了多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然委員……"],["鍾委員佳濱：物價成長1.7倍！"],["莊部長翠雲：委員一直都很關切，我們都……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要不要調？"],["莊部長翠雲：會調。"],["鍾委員佳濱：調1.7倍可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：1.7倍啊？我們現在數字還在算，就是在蒐集各國的資料。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，給大家一個承諾，署長可以回答嗎？跟著物價調有困難嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：是，當然沒有問題，一定要調。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以，謝謝。","往下看，開放中生來臺就業引發社會疑慮，有總統候選人說要開放中生來臺就業，社會上怎麼疑慮？部長，社會怎麼疑慮？"],["莊部長翠雲：社會怎麼疑慮？"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊，會不會衝擊我們臺灣年輕人的就業？會不會？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想來臺就業的部分，勞動部應該會去思考吧。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我來告訴你，除了怕競爭、搶工作，我們還擔心他們有任務啊，中國學生到外國的就學、就業有特殊任務，有沒有聽過？我告訴你啦，往下看，中國學生到國外從事間諜活動，看到媒體報導──美國，他要計畫加入陸軍獲得快速的公民身分，然後進入這些情報、敏感單位。法國──中國學生因為從事間諜活動被遣返。德國──因為中國學生參與間諜活動，它認為有風險。你有沒有看過這些報導？"],["莊部長翠雲：在媒體上有看到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那再往下看。陸生來臺、中生來臺就學的領域很特別喔，在2019年之前，他們來臺灣的學生會念什麼？商業跟管理，還有藝術、工程。你知道嗎，今年陸生最熱門的領域是什麼？軟體應用及管理開發、管理行政、電子與電機耶，為什麼？有沒有覺得他們就學領域的變化？我來告訴你什麼原因。以美國的軍事機密為例，要竊取資訊不需要很核心，只要一個一等兵，他接觸到網路系統就可以接觸機密，就可以洩密啊。還有一個中國華裔的美國海軍現役士兵，因為母親鼓勵他洩密，可以跟中國求官，這個新聞對你有什麼啟發？"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得來幹嘛就幹嘛，不要做一些不應該做的事。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，不能從事與入境目的不合的行為。","往下看，不只如此，現在的財經詐騙層出不窮，網站都設在外國啊，有收到什麼臺北國家稅務局的，還稱呼你叫做尊敬的客戶。請問主任，你認為這些網站是來自哪裡？"],["張主任文熙：因為我們的資料主要都是來自香港。"],["鍾委員佳濱：香港？財資中心揪出了205個偽造繳稅的網站，有沒有分析來源國？"],["張主任文熙：主要是中轉的就是從香港。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主要來源國是中、港？好，今天我的題目來了，今天我們的題目是什麼？資訊安全對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：公股行庫有沒有完善建立確實內部稽核？內稽、內控有沒有？"],["蕭署長家旗：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：署長，有沒有？"],["蕭署長家旗：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那不是公股行庫的上海銀行，1萬4,000個個資外洩是什麼原因？沒有建立，也沒有確實執行，導致客戶資料外洩，是不是這樣？有沒有懲處？那是金管會的事情！"],["蕭署長家旗：上海我不清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我們往下看。不是只有公股、官民營的銀行啊，不是只有資訊啊，敏感的職務要加強審查，請問公股行庫有沒有統整出這些資訊安全的敏感職務，加強資安及背景審查，以加強資安教育？有沒有做？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，敏感職務要先定位出來哪些是敏感職務……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，有沒有定位了？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，我想這個應該要適才適所，當然有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有沒有定位什麼叫做敏感職務？有沒有？有沒有定位什麼叫敏感職務？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有啊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有！如果沒有定位敏感職務，你如何加強資安的訓練跟教育呢？所以請注意，你們如果要重視資安，要對銀行端的敏感職務先定位，看哪些職務有可能接觸到機密，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：可以，我們可以瞭解，因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，可以瞭解，我告訴你，你可以參考一下，這個叫做強化關鍵基礎設施保護的法案，這已經訂定出來了，對不對？在今年5月30號通過的關鍵基礎設施的法律修正案，其中包括證交法、銀行法、期貨交易法都有明白規定危害核心設備及核心資通系統功能的處罰，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：條文規定如果以竊取、毀壞或其他非法方法危害其功能正常運作者，處1年以上7年以下有期徒刑，重不重？重，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：嗯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是如果你們沒有把這些敏感職務定位清楚，你根本不曉得核心的設備在哪裡、什麼人會接觸到，是不是這樣子？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，核心設備及核心資通系統一定要先把它羅列出來，那我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有沒有羅列出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們才知道關鍵基礎設施的重要性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：知道了喔？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。最後我來問你，除了硬體設備之外，人員的審查更重要，你們有沒有對這些接觸關鍵核心資敏設備及其業務的人進行審查？"],["莊部長翠雲：針對這個部分，因為有一些有保密責任，一定會要求他們要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有列出清單？"],["莊部長翠雲：要簽署保密的協定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我先問一個保密協定，這是行政院的院函，該函的主旨是「有關111年盤點大陸廠牌資通訊產品及委外營運公眾場域契約之評估結果，請依說明事項辦理，請查照並轉知所屬公務機關」。請問我們銀行端有沒有收到？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們全部完成清查跟盤點……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有要求廠商在執行本案的時候，成員不得有中籍、陸籍人士？有沒有要求？"],["莊部長翠雲：有，有要求。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有說不可以提供中國製的資通設備？"],["莊部長翠雲：也有要求不可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有做到？"],["莊部長翠雲：有啊，都有做到……"],["鍾委員佳濱：設備你們有做到了……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們清查、盤點都有做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們對於外包廠商的成員身分有做控管喔？"],["莊部長翠雲：有控管，我們對資安人員也會做徵信調查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我來告訴你，中國籍的人士常常透過第三地的國籍來臺工作，有沒有？在我們的公股行庫當中，有沒有外籍人士──不是中籍人士，但是他事實上是透過第三地的國籍來臺工作的？有沒有調查過？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們沒有外籍人士啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：公股行庫沒有人有臺灣以外的國籍，你確定嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，這個我不能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個問題很敏感喔！中華民國國籍，你們的工作人員當中，除了高階的主管我們有雙重國籍的要求之外，你能確定公股行庫的人沒有臺灣以外的國籍嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然我們沒有對全體同仁去做過清查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那你們有什麼？你們延攬外籍優秀的人才，有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分有過，對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，你們在延攬外籍人才的時候，有沒有去瞭解他是哪個國籍的背景？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然要知道他是哪一個國家……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他是來自香港的，你確定他有沒有中國的背景？"],["莊部長翠雲：喔，這個部分，對……"],["鍾委員佳濱：香港的不是中國人喔，來自香港的，香港的國際人士很多啊，從香港的銀行被你們延攬到臺灣公股行庫的，有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前沒有啊！目前沒有！"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前公股行庫完全沒有延攬從香港來的外籍人士？完全沒有？完全沒有？確定喔？要不要我一個一個請教？我不會叫你們蹲或跪或者舉手，叫你們一個一個對麥克風講，有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：還是你要回去再徹查一下？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再回去瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請你們去徹查一下，所有公股行庫延攬優秀的外籍人才，尤其來自香港的，要去瞭解他的國籍背景，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們回去瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我今天的一個結論很清楚，今天我們在談資安，今天我們在談金融的資安，今天我們在談公股行庫的金融資安，首先第一步你們要把機敏的職務列出來，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們去查一下，將機敏職務分類。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。第二個，從事這些職務的人員要不要加強訓練？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然應該要訓練。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要教育訓練，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：專業訓練一定要的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，哪些人擔任這個職務？你們公股行庫及其所屬的證券公司或保險公司或者執行廠商團隊當中，只要有非本國籍或是同時擁有其他國籍的人士，以及資通訊的產品都要加強資安以及背景審查，可以做到嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分我們會後再來做研議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼時候可以結束調查，在調查完畢後，給本委員會一個說明？"],["莊部長翠雲：一個月內，好嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：一個月內？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請你們加強調查，尤其是第二項，你們要先盤點跟定位哪些是機敏的職務，這些機敏職務有時候不見得是核心，不見得是有後臺的鑰匙，他可能只是個基層人員，就像一個一等兵一樣，這些職務只要被列為機敏的，你們要進行在職人員的在職教育訓練，而且以後擔任這個職務的人要列入背景調查，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們會在報告裡面一起把它敘明清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：只要非本國籍，或者擁有其他國家國籍的人，尤其要注意，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們在報告的時候會一併把它敘明……"],["鍾委員佳濱：同時把這些來自香港或有中國籍背景的人士點出來，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們在報告裡面一併容納。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：以後回答問題請對著麥克風講，不要舉手或蹲下。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：我跟鍾委員及財委會報告，主席有決定權，站在備詢臺舉手或者不舉手也是一種表達方式。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時46分）","繼續開會（10時57分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。接著請高嘉瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-18","speakers":["費鴻泰","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","沈發惠","郭國文","李貴敏","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","林楚茵","羅明才","張其祿","陳椒華"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129405","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129405_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就「資安疑慮頻傳，如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1129405_00008"}}},{"id":"148849","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148849","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae362186691396e8ecd699875fc3b91d430b92bdeaf34c986728e607a03227231974dec5445ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐志榮","委員發言時間":"10:30:59 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10:39:37","影片長度":"00:08:38","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號28974）\n三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員洪申翰等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號10041896））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":518,"end_time":"2023-12-04T10:39:37+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T10:30:59+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":380,"blocks":[["徐委員志榮：（10時31分）謝謝主席，麻煩請薛部長。"],["主席：有請部長，謝謝。"],["徐委員志榮：上上禮拜跟邱委員邱召委講的，你還是讓副總統候選人站起來了，不管如何，我們衛環委員會有個召委在這次選舉當了副總統的候選人，我們所有衛環委員會的成員，都應該備感與有榮焉，不管選舉如何，特別剩下40天還是41天左右，召委在這麼繁忙的選舉行程當中，還可以在這裡主持會議，對他的敬業應該也要表示非常高的肯定。","部長，今天我們審查人工生殖法，如果通過的話，當然對於少子化，多多少少都會有幫助，應該新的baby都會出來，但是我們也不能因為對少子化有所助益，我們就草草通過這個案子，這應該是一個基本上的立場。提到少子化，從106年以來，我們新生兒的出生人數可以說是幾乎都低於20萬人，差不多每年都以1萬、1萬在減少，我們就舉今年為例，今年來講可能不到14萬人，明年也有可能不到13萬人，可能啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：明年龍年，也許會……"],["徐委員志榮：也可能啦！龍年可能會，但是趨勢都是比較往下的，當然少子化都會帶來很多的影響，我們也不必在這邊討論，譬如說各行各業的缺工；阿兵哥、兵源的短缺；大學都要關門了；勞保、健保繳的人比較少，要支出的也比較多，但是我們國健署裡面有一筆預算，也是奉行政院核定的，就是從107年到113年有一筆叫做辦理體外受精（俗稱的試管嬰兒）、人工生殖技術的經費，在112年有27億多；113年減少變成26億多，但是我們的成果看起來確實是有成果的、有效的，志榮在這邊的疑問是，既然我們這個計畫是有成果的、有效的，為什麼我們明年的預算反而比今年少，113年少了將近快1億元，是因為111年、112年執行率的關係還是怎麼樣，才會變成比較少？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該不是執行率的關係，因為執行率一直都不錯，而是我們做推估時是用之前那幾年的試管嬰兒人數去推，所以推估起來的話，我們大概還是每年補助差不多4萬2,000人，以4萬2,000人去做推估，實際上會來接受這個補助的當然是視情況而定，我也有一點擔心，剛剛委員提到明年如果是龍年的話，也許需求會比較高一點。不過，如果是明年要生的，可能有一半以上是今年就已經做了，等到明年才會出生，年初的時候也許也會有不少，所以我們會評估，然後做滾動式的檢討，如果有需要增加預算的話，我們循預算程序來辦理……"],["徐委員志榮：我們是認為，對於解決少子化的問題，我們應該無所不用其極的用種種方式，譬如說我們沒有把預算減少，還是保持原來預算的話，甚至對補助經費的提高，還是怎麼樣更去鼓勵，讓一些不能自然懷孕的夫妻也可以有他們心愛的小baby，這應該是我們大家要一起努力的。","第二個問題，報紙前幾天也登的蠻大的，關於臺北區醫學中心洗牌，好像以前從來都沒有把哪家醫院擠下來的。部長，這個結果公告了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：還沒。"],["徐委員志榮：還沒，部長知道……"],["薛部長瑞元：我還沒有看到正式的公文。"],["徐委員志榮：所以部長你也還不知道結果，一方面還沒有公布，一方面你也還不知道這個結果。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["徐委員志榮：但是外面都知道消息了。"],["薛部長瑞元：是，所以我們現在要請醫策會進入做查察，因為這些委員都有……"],["徐委員志榮：這些委員都有簽了……"],["薛部長瑞元：都有簽保密協定，所以訊息怎麼樣漏出去的，這我們還是必須要做調查。"],["徐委員志榮：對，應該要做調查，甚至也應該懲處，應該都要這樣子的。這就好像是通風報信，報好消息啦！如果說沒有影響到評鑑的過程的話，我是覺得還OK啦！但那已經是受公平評鑑出來的，提早去報這個假消息，臺北慈濟很高興，他說他接到很多電話，會不會到時候曝光死啊？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個評鑑的分數怎麼樣就怎麼樣，我們也不會再去做更動，但是……"],["徐委員志榮：不是還有其他的參考？配合政策面……"],["薛部長瑞元：我還沒有接到最後結果的公文。不過我們從另外一個角度去看，這個評鑑的改革是在SARS之後，那時候我是當醫事處處長，所以我大概全盤瞭解當時是怎麼樣去做設計的，現在已經過了20年，其實這些評鑑制度裡面有一些可能不是很合時代，在當時認為是比較重要的政策要去推，現在可能沒有……"],["徐委員志榮：OK，好，我瞭解，我不希望副總統候選人站起來。","公務員跟非公務員的洩密罪大家都知道了，也在刑法一百三十二條規定的很清楚，那也是蠻嚴重的，我是想我們北區一定就是要框8家嗎？我的意思是，只要達到衛福部訂的醫學中心各種評比，評比都有達到了，那何必要擠下哪一家呢？讓它變成9家不行嗎？我自己的疑惑是這樣子。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，這也是我剛剛在提的，我們即將啟動醫學評鑑的改革，我們會考慮這一點，事實上當時定200萬人口有一家醫學中心，剛開始定的時候臺北區就超過了。"],["徐委員志榮：這樣子喔！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，臺北區一直是8家，但是現在臺北區的人口是七、八百萬，如果200萬的話，其實只能有4家……"],["徐委員志榮：我是覺得只要他們有達到醫學中心的……"],["薛部長瑞元：所以一開始就超過了，未來還需不需要有這樣的限制，我們會去做檢討。"],["徐委員志榮：OK，好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員。","下一位請洪申翰委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3","speakers":["吳欣盈","林楚茵","謝衣鳯","高嘉瑜","賴惠員","溫玉霞","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","邱泰源","徐志榮","洪申翰","王婉諭","張育美","黃秀芳","陳椒華","范雲","張其祿","林為洲","陳瑩","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","湯蕙禎","莊競程"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；五、委員洪申翰等20\n人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；八、台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129501_00002"}}},{"id":"148848","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148848","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae36218669139905aa900c9f02fac91d430b92bdeaf34c986728e607a03228f3283415c968b375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱泰源","委員發言時間":"10:18:54 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10:30:47","影片長度":"00:11:53","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號28974）\n三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員洪申翰等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號10041896））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":713,"end_time":"2023-12-04T10:30:47+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T10:18:54+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["邱委員泰源：（10時18分）好，我們請部長。謝謝主席，辛苦了。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["邱委員泰源：咖啡喝多一點！這樣表示咖啡不夠好！部長，我在進入今天的主題之前有兩個事情跟你請教，我想昨天早上有兩個記者會在進行，一個是由台灣醫院協會、醫師公會全聯會、私立醫療院所協會以及台灣醫務管理學會發起的，聯絡人是洪子仁理事長、吳明彥秘書長等等，針對行政院核定健保點值比較低落一點的議題，為了提高醫療機構的韌性、優化醫療環境，希望用公務預算來補，而且我們健保會的非醫界代表也有抗議。我是要重申，感覺其實這是一個制度上一直讓我們很心痛的地方，我們共同在關心臺灣人民的健康，但為什麼會有這樣的制度設計，每次從健保會戰到社會，一定要這樣子嗎？因為我也是醫學院的教授，我至少教過幾千個臺大醫學系的學生，當然還有其他醫學院的學生，我們都會去上課，我們期待的就是他能夠堅守醫療核心價值、發揮專業，然後未來醫療工作環境有一個可以給他發揮的地方，我想他們的心就是這樣子在做。","在健保的制度之下，當他們做1點可能只有領到0.7元、0.8元，這是一回事，如果影響到醫療院所沒辦法運作下去，到底是誰的損失？人民知不知道我們健保的保費是怎麼樣的一個組成？它其實也是有政府補助等等這些，最終也是政府在照顧人民啊，政府也很用心嘛，所以政府是有責任來把這件事情做好。這一次非常有正義的一個舉動來挽救我們醫療院所的運作，這是對人民的幸福耶！我覺得未來怎麼樣應該要研究，因為我當過兩個月的健保委員，好像我當立委以後就辭掉了，但是那2、3個月在健保會可以說是拍桌、拍椅啦！我想我們所有的代表每次去可能是幾天睡不著覺，何必這樣子？應該好好的來談，我們有多少經費？人民的需求是在哪裡？我們共同來meet，這樣來做不是很好的事情嗎？這部分我個人還是覺得……當然站在不同的角度來思考有不同的想法，這個我都知道，但最終是人民的健康有沒有得到好處。你說好吧！醫療體系有浪費，那你健保會不是督促很久了嗎？健保署不是也督促很久了嗎？為什麼這個還會浪費？是不是都怠忽職守？對不對？不能用這個理由說醫療體系在浪費，浪費是制度不好啊！","我們常常在講你把安寧療護做好一點，把居家醫療做好一點，可以節省多少不必要的，那個才是真正不需要的醫療費用，這才是制度的改善，而這幾年也改善得非常好啊！所以我們的制度已經是世界國際級的水準，可是我們的糧草卻不夠，我想這個部分可能社會各界要去瞭解，醫師、醫療團體絕對是每天夜以繼日、用心要照顧民眾，但是總不能讓他吃不飽，或是醫療院所沒有辦法請足夠的專業人力，最後這樣是不好的，因為時間的關係，不曉得部長可不可以簡單回應一下？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實這一次有兩件事情我們同時做了處理，第一個，因為COVID-19由法定傳染病降級，從第五級變成第四級，變成它的醫療費用就不再由公務預算來支出而回到健保，造成了點值的滑落，這是一件事情；第二件事情，明年的總額經我們核定，成長到4.7%，就是這兩件事情，而第一件事情，那個是非預期的法令改變造成的，這個風險本來就是有，即有這樣一個制度的設計，但是裡面的預算太少，因為只有8億所以不足，才動支到公務預算，並挹注到健保基金，這個部分之所以會引起爭議的原因是，我們平常、以往並沒有將公務預算直接去挹注健保基金這種事情，是從今年的240億才開始的，往後可能每年都還有200億，其實行政院挹注進來的時候，並沒有指定說它只能放在安全準備，也就是說它的用途並沒有特別去做設計，這個時候我們剛好遇到這個問題，拿它來用應該是沒什麼違法的問題，而且是合情合理，簡單來說就是這樣。"],["邱委員泰源：我非常支持部長所說的，我也敬佩我們政府有魄力來維護我們人民的健康，這要給他們最大的掌聲，至於各個意見我們也應該都要聽，聽了以後就是怎麼樣改善未來的一個制度跟協商相關的機制，真的讓人民的健康、權益不要受到損傷。","第二個張圖，還是謝謝部長前二天跟我們衛環團隊到澎湖做了非常詳盡的考察，不管是在衛福部的領域或環境部的領域，我跟部長在那邊也一起共同感謝我們醫療的同仁，大家願意在偏鄉，當然不只在澎湖，在離島等各方面，大家都很辛苦，部長也在那邊充分地表達對他們的支持，給他們鼓勵，將來看起來急重症的硬體一直在增加，而軟體怎麼增加，這個部長承受很大的壓力，尤其我們楊曜委員督促得非常急迫。","但是我還是要提醒，我們在山地、離島還是不要只有急重症，怎麼樣讓它在每一個年齡層，像我們禮拜三要審國民營養相關法案，每一個年齡層的營養要怎麼去處理，以及預防保健及推廣，像我自己的小孩，雖然我也沒有長得很高，但我的小孩都是180，女生174，走出去大家都會嚇到，人家問為什麼會這樣，我就說吃好一點，畢竟住在學校旁邊，鈴聲響就趕快衝過去，總之，就是睡得飽、吃得飽，就會好好長大啦！","然後預防保健推廣，也是每一個年齡層都要做的，我想以後不只是各個鄉鎮、偏鄉，不應只要急重症，可是人員他的片段性，雖然他是需要，但是讓他預防保健，讓他不要生病才是重要，這也是新加坡總理李顯龍有一次在對全國的國政會議中特別強調，希望每一個家、每一個人都要去做預防保健，都要把營養照顧好，不要讓家人擔心你可能會生病等等，我們感謝部長。","因為時間的關係，我很快帶過今天的主題，有關於少子化的一個問題，我想今天要討論的主題，跟少子化有一點關係，我們都希望要生的人可以提供他一個好的生養環境，畢竟我們每一個人旁邊都有很多因為生不出小孩那種痛苦的經歷，那個真的是已經叫做家破了，雖然還不至於到人亡，但是真的會家破。我覺得站在醫療的立場，我們絕對、一定要全力來幫忙，讓要生的人怎麼樣好好來生，而整體國家來講，就是針對少子化的困境，大家過去幾年一直在努力，我今天沒有很多時間，我就請衛福部用書面回答我這一大題，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["邱委員泰源：因為這是婦產科的建議，我想這滿詳盡的、滿周全的，希望可以解決少子化的問題。","請看下一張，針對今天的主題，大概婦產科醫學會也有它的建議，當然部長也提到一些修法上的一個擔心，這個修法的擔心我想今天都有討論，我就不請教了，就是右邊的這個，我只是要表達說，婦產科醫學會他們有專家，當然他們都是整天在處理這些事情，他們也瞭解到社會有期待，但是氛圍上怎麼樣一步一步來推展，是不是能夠分階段大家來努力，我真的很感佩我們召委、各位委員、行政部門能夠共同來討論，這個真的很重要，也是人所需要的事情，但是我們怎麼樣讓它做得更有共識、更合乎倫理，更合乎法律，法律怎麼樣來配合，未來我會支持，然後我們趕快來開公聽會，趕快把這個事情做一個積極的討論、進行，部長，這個部分你就不用答復了，就請你回復我前面提到的少子化問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["邱委員泰源：以上是我的分享跟建議，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱泰源委員。","下一位請徐志榮徐委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3","speakers":["吳欣盈","林楚茵","謝衣鳯","高嘉瑜","賴惠員","溫玉霞","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","邱泰源","徐志榮","洪申翰","王婉諭","張育美","黃秀芳","陳椒華","范雲","張其祿","林為洲","陳瑩","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","湯蕙禎","莊競程"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；五、委員洪申翰等20\n人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；八、台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129501_00002"}}},{"id":"148846","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148846","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae362186691391689db3bb40b734fdd8cd552855f1d3fc986728e607a03226a1f6f98b4a2bf775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李貴敏","委員發言時間":"10:11:10 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10:18:16","影片長度":"00:07:06","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就「資安疑慮頻傳，如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-18"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":426,"end_time":"2023-12-04T10:18:16+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T10:11:10+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":453,"blocks":[["李委員貴敏：（10時11分）謝謝主席。主席，我們有請財政部部長、臺灣金控董事長、總經理、臺銀董事長、總經理、土銀的董事長、總經理、兆豐金控的董事長、總經理、兆豐銀的總經理。"],["主席：臺灣銀行的總經理因為身體不太舒服……"],["李委員貴敏：沒關係，今天有出席的……"],["主席：來了以後，我就准他離開。"],["李委員貴敏：還有第一金控的董事長、總經理、第一銀行的總經理、華南金控的董事長、總經理、華南銀行總經理、合作金庫董事長、總經理、合銀的董事長、總經理、彰銀董事長、總經理、中小企業總經理。"],["主席：好，各位。"],["李委員貴敏：不好意思，只有第一題要請教大家而已，所以第一題結束後，大家就可以入座。","第一個，我們看到有用大內宣的情形，我要請問一下，大家有收到彰銀這封函、知道這件事情的，請舉手。沒有人。好，彰銀董事長，這封函是不是彰銀發的？彰銀有沒有發給各個公股銀行，要求他們一起共襄盛舉，要有託播的費用──各家銀行出資1,000萬、金控是2,000萬？有收到這樣訊息的請舉手。沒有。沒有收到這樣訊息的請舉手。好，那是哪一位舉手？哪個銀行請說一下。"],["陳總經理芬蘭：第一金控。"],["李委員貴敏：第一金控沒有這樣的情形。其他不舉手的是什麼意思？就是有也不舉手、沒有也不舉手，你知道我在學校任教EMBA時，如果問問題不回答的話，就是要有公基金出來，你們這個有也不是、沒有也不是的態度是什麼意思？彰銀請回答一下，你有沒有要求？"],["凌董事長忠嫄：不是，我跟委員報告一下，其實對於所有公股績效的呈現，我們平常也會拍攝一些廣告、短片。"],["李委員貴敏：金額是不是像你所要求的？你的意思是這不是第一次……"],["凌董事長忠嫄：不是、不是。"],["李委員貴敏：你每一年都會要求各個公股銀行來拍攝廣告，是不是每一年都有？"],["凌董事長忠嫄：我報告一下這整個……"],["李委員貴敏：是不是每一年都有？"],["凌董事長忠嫄：不是、不是。"],["李委員貴敏：你報告要針對我的問題，我現在請教你的是……"],["凌董事長忠嫄：沒有，我針對今年的這個事情……"],["李委員貴敏：沒有，我只有問你今年。你每一年都有嗎？"],["凌董事長忠嫄：我每一年都會拍攝一些形象的廣告。"],["李委員貴敏：好，你每一年都會邀請八大行庫要託播？"],["凌董事長忠嫄：不會。"],["李委員貴敏：只有今年邀請八大行庫託播？"],["凌董事長忠嫄：不是託播，今年是因為我們整個執行的項目……"],["李委員貴敏：針對我的問題回答，我請問你有沒有要求八大行庫託播？"],["凌董事長忠嫄：沒有。"],["李委員貴敏：好。那你現在要求八大行庫的是什麼？"],["凌董事長忠嫄：我沒有要求。"],["李委員貴敏：你沒有要求，所以八大行庫託播是他們自己自願的？還是財政部部長有施壓公股銀行要做廣告？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有。"],["李委員貴敏：完全沒有。所以彰銀你有沒有收到這個函？"],["凌董事長忠嫄：我們沒有發過函……"],["李委員貴敏：你有沒有給這個函或收到類似這樣的函？說怎麼樣有效宣傳提升公股行庫企業形象，這個函彰銀有沒有發？或你們現在上台的各個公股銀行、金控有沒有收到這樣的函？或你們有沒有做類似這樣的事情？我再給你一次機會，有的請舉手。"],["凌董事長忠嫄：跟委員報告，我們……"],["李委員貴敏：等一下！在後面的各位董事長、總經理，知道這件事情的請舉手；不知道的請舉手；這什麼狀況啊？主席，我先暫停一下，他們可以不回答嗎？"],["主席：好，時間暫停。"],["李委員貴敏：有也不舉手，沒有也不舉手，那是什麼意思呢？是上臺當布景嗎？還是是什麼意思呢？憲法不是說你們有備詢的義務嗎？"],["主席：部長，李委員問的，有的舉手、沒有的舉手……"],["李委員貴敏：對啊！"],["主席：兩個都沒有？還是你們規定他們統統都不可以回答？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，沒有規定。"],["李委員貴敏：不是，你有收到這個函件或者是你知道這件事情的舉手啊！然後不知道的也不舉手，知道的也不舉手，這什麼狀況？部長，他不聽委員的，我們代表民意，但今天已經不管用了，所以請部長指示一下，他們按照他們所知道的事實回答，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想委員……"],["李委員貴敏：不是，我只要你指示他們，按照他們所知道的……"],["莊部長翠雲：不需要我的指示，因為對於委員問的問題，我們從來都是如實回答。"],["李委員貴敏：好，如實回答，但八大公股行庫他們不回答啊！剛只有一個回答，第一銀行的請回，因為你已經回答了，第一銀行的請回，剛才第一銀行的請回，就是就你所知沒有這樣的情形，請回。其他八大行庫的董事長、總經理，我再給你一次機會，你知道這樣的事情的，請舉手。"],["主席：好，現在詢答開始。"],["李委員貴敏：請舉手！知道的請舉手；不知道的請舉手。"],["主席：好，暫停，休息5分鐘。"],["李委員貴敏：厲害啦！現在我們的國會等同虛設啊！厲害啦！部長，你既然找了這些董事長、總經理，他們什麼都不知道，也拒絕按照憲法的義務來履行，是不是全部換掉啊？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想財政部也不是說全部換掉就可以換掉，跟委員報告……"],["李委員貴敏：為什麼呢？因為我們需要養這麼多人……"],["主席：李貴敏委員，你要開始還是？"],["李委員貴敏：沒有，你可以停5分鐘，我沒問題，我只是提醒他們依憲法有備詢的義務。"],["主席：休息5分鐘，我就要離開主席臺了。"],["李委員貴敏：好。"],["主席：好，休息5分鐘。","休息（10時17分）","繼續開會（10時24分）"],["主席：我要跟財委會報告，立法委員代表人民行使對於行政單位的監督，立法委員問的問題各位官員必須得回答，必須得回答！至於你要怎麼回答，是要負法律責任，這是立法院，不是跟你開玩笑，如果再不回答，我們今天就停止，我再排時間，你必須得回答，好嗎？","現在開始。"],["李委員貴敏：好，謝謝主席。我們再來一次。各位董事長、總經理知道這一件事情，也就是如何有效宣傳公股行庫企業形象由彰銀發起的請舉手。都知道，都知道有這件事情，所以也配合辦理，是不是？配合辦理的舉手；不配合辦理的舉手；全部都配合辦理。所以剛才財政部說並沒有施壓公股銀行要拍嘛，對不對？財政部剛才是講沒有施壓。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，沒有施壓。"],["李委員貴敏：這個總預算額度在八大行庫配合之下，這個總預算的額度是多少？是不是銀行的部分就是每一家1,000萬，然後金控是2,000萬？金控的部分拜託確認一下，是2,000萬左右的舉手；然後不知道金額的舉手；你們不知道金額，你們是授權什麼部門去辦理？拜託兆豐金控董事長先來代表講一下。"],["雷董事長仲達：謝謝李委員，事情確實是知道……"],["李委員貴敏：沒有，你只要回答我的問題就好了。"],["雷董事長仲達：當然金額多少我不知道。"],["李委員貴敏：你不知道，然後就授權下面的……"],["雷董事長仲達：對，授權他們要去做……"],["李委員貴敏：任何的人要配合，你是配合彰銀，就彰銀發起之後……"],["雷董事長仲達：不是配合彰銀，它也沒有跟我說是彰銀啦！但就是有這樣的事情要做宣傳，因為我們做青安貸款……"],["李委員貴敏：好，那我現在要請問，因為你們拖延的關係，把我的時間用掉了，我要請問一下，你可以在今天的會後把你們派核辦理的金額出來給本席嗎？"],["雷董事長仲達：我的瞭解是還沒有，我說要做這件事情，但是沒有金額……"],["李委員貴敏：對，但是金額的部分你剛剛確認……"],["雷董事長仲達：好像連發包都沒有。"],["李委員貴敏：沒有，我現在沒有跟你講發包，你這是託播啊！廣告託播。"],["雷董事長仲達：那沒有金額嘛……"],["李委員貴敏：不要閃！不要閃！這個是壞習慣，好不好？你剛剛已經閃了，我現在講說不要閃，你今天在會後告訴我你內部的查證……沒關係，不要今天也可以，我們就說禮拜三下班前可以嗎？禮拜三下班前……"],["雷董事長仲達：可以，我會繼續跟……"],["李委員貴敏：對，查了之後，把你們各個銀行要配合辦理廣告託播的金額，麻煩把各個銀行的回復給我，好不好？"],["雷董事長仲達：我只就我的兆豐啦！好不好？"],["李委員貴敏：對，你只就兆豐，我說各個銀行，可以嗎？"],["雷董事長仲達：可以。"],["李委員貴敏：部長可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["李委員貴敏：如果他們還不知道的話，我建議就是換嘛！董事長、總經理換掉就是了，各位請回，謝謝，感恩不盡！總算在主席裁示之後有把人民放在眼裡，沒有拒絕行使、拒絕履行你在憲法上面備詢的義務，感激不盡！","我第二個問題要請教，特別預算變成財政紀律的破口，我們看到在特別預算的時候，你說特別預算並不是財政紀律的破口，我舉一個例給部長，你記得我當時在詢問你的時候，本來這個問題其實應該問主計長啦！但主計長就甩鍋，他甩到你身上，你記不記得我們在302的時候，他甩鍋甩到你身上？那我只好問你。特別預算的部分，七年多編了13個特別預算，裡面就算是還稅於民的部分都還要編給台電500億，這個是事實吧，對不對？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，條例第三條……"],["李委員貴敏：我們再看一下，為什麼我說編特別預算本身只要你是按照法律的規定來編特別預算，不會有人有意見，但是如果你把年度預算擺在特別預算裡面，它就不對了，對不對？部長，如果你把年度預算的項目擺到特別預算裡面就不對了嘛，對不對？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：特別預算也要分年編列的……"],["李委員貴敏：對，沒有錯，但那不是我問的，我說如果你年度預算……"],["莊部長翠雲：您是說總預算的……"],["李委員貴敏：年度預算的東西你把它塞到特別預算裡面就不對嘛，對不對？是不是？還是你不知道？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，我覺得要看是怎麼編列……"],["李委員貴敏：沒有，我現在不用看，我現在就講說年度預算是年度預算嘛、特別預算是特別預算嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，總預算是總預算，特別預算是特別預算，總預算是每一年都編一個……"],["李委員貴敏：你把它塞到特別預算裡面來是對還是不對？我問第三次了。"],["莊部長翠雲：特別預算有特別預算的條例，條例一定有它特別的目的……"],["李委員貴敏：沒錯！我就在講了，這是第四次詢問，把總預算的項目塞到特別預算是可以還是不行？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個我想還是要看預算法，然後由主計總處主政……"],["李委員貴敏：我現在講按照預算法的規定嘛！我就告訴你說……"],["莊部長翠雲：當然特別預算有特別預算訂定的目的嘛！"],["李委員貴敏：當然！所以我才講說你把總預算……你這麼害怕就是你其實也知道，就像剛才前面的情形一樣，現在我們的行政官員也好，或者是相關的公股銀行也好，顯然是沒把人民、沒把憲法、沒把法律當回事，所以我現在問的就是，如果你應該編在總預算裡面，我們講年度預算，你硬要把它編到特別預算，那特別預算就成了巧門，特別預算成了巧門之後，它當然是財政紀律的破口啊！這個不能單純的去……你違法就是違法嘛！","另外我跟部長報告一點，在一般的民間有訊息，像我剛剛問那個問題的訊息，你們剛剛是拒絕回答喔！在主席裁示之前，你們是拒絕回答的喔！一般的民間企業當有訊息出來的時候你要釐清啊！沒這回事情的話，你就在你公告的訊息上面說沒這回事情啊！但你不敢，為什麼你不敢？就是因為有，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：有，我們有說明。"],["李委員貴敏：沒有說明啊，這個問題需要浪費我們這麼多的時間嗎？","第三個，其實我很想問的是，財政部又被冒名了嘛，對不對？現在詐騙猖狂，我們看到國家的打詐國家隊是完全沒有任何的功能，它的唯一功能在哪裡？唯一的功能在編預算而已！除了編預算之外，它沒有任何功能，所以稅務的詐騙變成常態。我想請問部長，您除了在您的臉書上面講說「你要看到有gov.tw的，它才是真的喔，其他都是假的」，我要請問的是，為什麼財政部會需要去蒐集民間的資料？我們看到現在是退稅，退稅你就退給人家就是啦，為什麼你會需要去跟人家要資料？然後遺產稅該退的你就是退啊，你為什麼會有需要跟民間要資料，然後再讓民間去受騙呢？為什麼需要呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有！第一個，我們沒有要跟民間要資料，所以……"],["李委員貴敏：既然是這樣子，你就不應該是說「你看到有gov.tw的才是財政部」，你為什麼會需要民間的資料，這個其實就牽涉到……"],["莊部長翠雲：這不會要，我們也說明過我們不會跟他們要。"],["李委員貴敏：這就牽涉到什麼呢？你知道剛才你沒有回答賴士葆委員的問題，關於個資外流的情況。"],["莊部長翠雲：是、是、是。"],["李委員貴敏：你想想看喔，公司行號的統一編號，你現在google打上去的時候，你只要打公司行號或者打統編，它的全部資料都出來耶！但你的簡易密碼設定是這樣子，你其實是等同要把全部其他私人企業的訊息，讓它全部都公開，以這樣的情況來講，你設定的部分，對於個資你有任何的尊重嗎？這就是我講說今天我們的行政單位，所有的東西完全不在乎老百姓的權益，你自己設計了一個東西，都是為了你的行政效率方便，但問題是你完全不在乎老百姓的權益！你另外又講說「登記密碼的提示，統一編號」，但統一編號現在在公開的訊息上面就可以找到了，那我請教你，等到裡面的資料被竄改的時候，你要誰負責啊？民間要負責啊！他實在有夠衰耶，他什麼事情都沒做，就為了你們行政官員的方便，然後民間就要承受所有的責任，這樣對嗎？部長，這樣對嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，您剛剛提的營業人的資料，它是公開資料，在經濟網站上是公開資料。"],["李委員貴敏：是啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：那您提的是說用公開資料就進入了我們的稅務網站，其實他還要申……"],["李委員貴敏：是啊，但是你的密碼，你在設定密碼的時候，你要的這些資料是非常非常容易的啊，現在根本不要講說多厲害的駭客，一般的人就可以進去啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：我知道委員您提的是弱密碼的部分，我們已經強化了，一定要求他加強這個密碼，而且對原來給他的預設密碼已經更改了。"],["李委員貴敏：最後，部長，你還要注意另外一件事情，因為有很多公司行號是透過會計師，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，或者記帳士。"],["李委員貴敏：會計師，他很可能是他習慣的一個密碼，所以所有人通通都是一樣。"],["莊部長翠雲：，對，現在已經不可以了。"],["李委員貴敏：所以他只要查出來是哪個會計師，所有的資料一樣出去啊，不是這樣子嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：現在不可以了，原來是這樣子，因為原來記帳士也好，會計師也好，為了簡便就用了這個弱密碼，現在都要去做變更了，而且定期要變更，這個部分我們會加強的。"],["李委員貴敏：好，那再拜託部長，時間到了，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝，謝謝委員提示。"],["主席：跟委員會報告，待會兒鍾佳濱委員詢答完以後，我們就休息10分鐘。","現在請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-18","speakers":["費鴻泰","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","沈發惠","郭國文","李貴敏","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","林楚茵","羅明才","張其祿","陳椒華"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129405","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129405_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就「資安疑慮頻傳，如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1129405_00008"}}},{"id":"148845","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148845","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae362186691394b4f5d46e3aeb8e091d430b92bdeaf34c986728e607a0322f242ee52a0981f745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳玉琴","委員發言時間":"10:07:09 - 10:18:40","影片長度":"00:11:31","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號28974）\n三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員洪申翰等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號10041896））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":691,"end_time":"2023-12-04T10:18:40+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T10:07:09+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":320,"blocks":[["吳委員玉琴：（10時7分）謝謝主席，我請衛福部薛部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["吳委員玉琴：部長早，今天有3個議題要跟您做討論。有關特需兒少視覺復能的部分，要特別謝謝衛福部，因為這個部分在上個禮拜一，臺大兒童醫院舉辦了特殊兒童及青少年的視覺復能計畫成果發表，在特殊需求眼科的部分，我們真的是過去又努力了6年來推動有關視覺復能，包括1個管理中心、4個據點，也希望在北中南東都有，現在已經由臺大來協助當管理中心，那天的成果發表也提到有超過600個家庭受益，我想這個部分我們要特別謝謝臺大還有林口長庚、中國醫藥學院、彰基，還有我們部立的臺東醫院，現在高雄地區，更南部的還沒有設立，因為當時在招標的時候沒有南部的，所以這個部分等一下要跟部長拜託，是不是有機會讓更多的點可以設置。","但是我要跟您報告的是那一天在家長的分享上面，對於這樣的兒少特殊眼科復能計畫，他們真的是求助有門，真的是很感謝政府，因為有個案例是3歲的宥宥感染新冠肺炎之後併發腦炎、肺炎，然後影響大腦視覺處理區的受損，所以家長剛開始是真的很無助，後來經過臺大醫院的協助，因為有視覺復能計畫的協助，他從看不到光現在已經可以到6成，所以家長非常非常謝謝醫院的協助。另外有一個孩子是7個月的腦傷導致看得到，但腦袋沒辦法接收刺激，所以對光沒有反應，經過我們的視覺復能，他的眼光已經可以追著爸爸媽媽，不然他之前看到媽媽爸爸也不會有感覺。所以我想這個計畫是需要繼續，因為我們初期原來是希望它做篩檢，對一些特需的孩子或是智能障礙的孩子，有時候你根本搞不清楚他到底發生了什麼事，是因為視覺的問題還是腦袋、智力的問題，後來經過特殊眼科的協助去幫他解決問題，篩出問題之後還可以幫忙他復能，我覺得這非常非常重要，所以要來跟部長拜託有關這樣的特需兒少視覺復能計畫，我們可不可以加倍？"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，本來是今年是5家，明年我們會增加到10家，本來收案是750名，明年會到1,600名，門診會從350診增加到800診。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以都會有大量的增加。我這邊可能要再拜託這些收案的醫院，如果它能夠有一些餘力，有沒有可能到特殊學校為孩子做檢查？就是說等於是外展，不是只有在醫院裡面等待他們來，有時候是特殊孩子的照顧。"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分可能還要再規劃一下，因為剛剛的數據，我跟委員報告……"],["吳委員玉琴：是，有擴大。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們預計收案會增加到1,600名，但是診次會增加到800診，表示說一診只能看2個人，所以你如果要做外展服務的話，從這邊抽掉人力出去的話可能會有問題，所以如果要做外展服務可能要另外有計畫。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以這個是不是也一併來考慮？因為我們看到那天的報告裡面，其實在偏鄉像臺東地區，他們是做了滿多外展的服務，甚至到綠島去做篩檢，所以我覺得它有一些……在這種幅員那麼廣闊的地方，確實家長要過來有一定的難度，所以他們很主動地去做了一個外展的服務，我想這個部分是不是對偏鄉地區也能夠有一些考慮？比如加成或是有些鼓勵的措施？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然這個可以來設計。"],["吳委員玉琴：再研議啦！好，謝謝。","11月24號謝謝部長，我在詢問有關營養餐飲服務的部分，謝謝部長終於在11月28號有回應了我們營養餐飲的部分，對於1.5倍到2.5倍的失能者、中低收入戶的補助不變，這個謝謝部長回應，不然我們當時整個大概很多服務團體幾乎都要跳腳了。另外也看到部長在最近也做了很大的宣示，明年的餐食費用，我們的送餐服務從80塊調整到100塊，志工服務也從一般區100塊調整到125塊，原住民跟偏鄉地區是120到150，謝謝我們衛福部能做這樣的反應，因為我們從7月份一直在反映物價上漲了，然後我們所有便當費用都沒有再調整，還有志工費也都沒有調整，真的是讓服務的經營上面非常困難，所以這也要謝謝部長能夠聽取民間跟我們委員們一起的建議，因為這個建議是蔡培慧委員也一直在爭取，我們希望偏遠地區的民眾，尤其是送餐的部分真的非常重要，我要代表這些長輩跟部長謝謝。","接下來要跟部長討論的是今天的主題人工生殖法，我看到這則新聞的時候大概就是吳昭軍吳署長在說要修人工生殖法的時候，當然團體就有人出來表示一些不同的意見，我看剛剛部長的報告裡面，其實93年就有代理孕母的公民共識會議，101年有代孕制度公民審議會議，已經10年、20年前了啦！整個世代或是所謂的環境應該又再改變，你們最近有開公聽會嗎？還沒，對吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：最近沒有。"],["吳委員玉琴：署長就立刻說要修法，這10年來的變化有掌握嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，其實修法跟公聽會這兩個的先後次序都是可以的，並沒有說一定要哪一個……"],["吳委員玉琴：可以併行啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，你先有一個草案的初稿出來……"],["吳委員玉琴：然後再跟大家討論……"],["薛部長瑞元：公聽會是會比較好討論啦！"],["吳委員玉琴：是，因為部長您也是學法的，所以我要問你，其實剛剛法務部的報告裡面就有提到，我們人工生殖法裡面規定，人工生殖出生的孩子當然就是視為婚生子女嘛，但民法裡面有規定，親子關係是以生母與子女有自然之分娩事實的血緣關係，那個就很清楚，我生了孩子，孩子是我的。但是代孕生子所生的血緣關係不明顯，剛剛部長一直回答的是過去的作法，我是代孕婦女，我生了之後，我還是媽媽，是吧？然後委託我的人就變成用收養的方式去收養孩子，未來我們這一個整套的關係，因為涉及到後面這個子女的身分，還有法律地位，還有相關的遺產繼承的問題，這個部分是不是還有其他的法律要配合修法？"],["薛部長瑞元：是否需要配合修法，這要看最後採的是什麼樣的一個方式，目前世界上大概有兩種方式去認定這一個代孕子女的身分。第一個，像德國那邊的話，它就是仍然代孕者己生所從出……"],["吳委員玉琴：生的人還是媽媽？"],["薛部長瑞元：生的是媽媽，然後這一個委託的夫妻再去收養。"],["吳委員玉琴：一樣收養。"],["薛部長瑞元：用收養的方式，但是大部分可能都是用契約，就是契約先訂好，未來這個就是我的小孩。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，像這樣的契約，我們政府要不要相當的規範？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個契約的規範是非常非常複雜的一件事情，我剛剛提到的，這個契約裡面，到底它對於行為的強制到什麼樣的程度？比方說這個契約裡面就可能會談到，代孕者在這代孕……"],["吳委員玉琴：懷孕期間。"],["薛部長瑞元：他輸入之後，代孕者有多久的時間不能性行為，這樣子就非常強烈的去影響……"],["吳委員玉琴：影響代孕者的一個……"],["薛部長瑞元：但是他如果違約，這個時候怎麼辦？要處罰嗎？還是這個契約就變成違約而失去它的效力，還是怎麼樣？"],["吳委員玉琴：是，剛剛部長談到這些，我們現在在這一次的修法裡面，還是有一些可能還不夠周延的部分，聽起來是需要更周延的相關法令，還可能有相關的配套措施要一併來思考，不是只有修我們人工生殖法這麼單一的……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，不是說我們同意代理孕母就好，因為如果真的要同意代理孕母的話，後面有許多的配套必須要去處理。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，最後，我相信這個人工生殖法當然不只是代理孕母這個議題而已，其實還有單身女性，還有同婚的議題，這個層次上是有點不太一樣，所以也有很多不同的聲音。我想我們還是很期望立法院有沒有機會開公聽會，讓這個事情……已經10年了啦！10年後應該要再重新開公聽會，讓大家有一定互相的討論跟瞭解，讓醫學倫理跟法律相關的專家，大家能夠共同再聚一次，可能不只一次，因為這個議題可能不只一次……"],["薛部長瑞元：可能不只一次。"],["吳委員玉琴：可能要更多的討論，讓這個議題能夠形成共識，我看部裡面應該是打算要來推這個法的修訂，但是應該要更快的凝聚相關的共識啦，我們一起努力，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位請費鴻泰……，Sorry！我今天早上還沒喝咖啡！完全不同的委員，I am really sorry！請邱泰源召委，抱歉！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3","speakers":["吳欣盈","林楚茵","謝衣鳯","高嘉瑜","賴惠員","溫玉霞","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","邱泰源","徐志榮","洪申翰","王婉諭","張育美","黃秀芳","陳椒華","范雲","張其祿","林為洲","陳瑩","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","湯蕙禎","莊競程"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；五、委員洪申翰等20\n人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；八、台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129501_00002"}}},{"id":"148844","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148844","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae362186691397822b1649e1dd72391d430b92bdeaf34c986728e607a0322549965bdc343e2335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:58:30 - 10:07:01","影片長度":"00:08:31","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號28974）\n三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員洪申翰等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號10041896））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":511,"end_time":"2023-12-04T10:07:01+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T09:58:30+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":283,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時58分）謝謝主席，請薛部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。部長，我覺得剛剛溫委員所質詢的包括癌症新藥的題目，我也非常非常關心，也跟你就教過很多次，上一次你說政府要擴大醫療投資的部分，其實我們真的擴大投資了很多，我們明年度的健保總額是成長了這麼多，甚至會投注將近兩百多億進去。我自己在看的時候發現其實有很多面向，跟我過去關心的都有相符，比如提高護理人員的診察費、津貼等相關的勞務費用就有46.59億，兒童急重症的照護診察等相關勞務費用共4.61億，這就是持續投資醫事人員，癌症新藥的部分其實也有在裡面，不是嗎？部長，有嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以大家一直主張的要照顧醫事人員，投資醫護人員就是投資臺灣健康，上次也有說過，政府都有做到，但我覺得宣傳實在太少了，我們投注了資本，讓醫護人員、醫事人員可以得到更多的照顧，以及大家關心的面向，這個部分實在是應該多做宣傳，不然你看連國會議員都不太清楚，我覺得很可惜，部長覺得呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，其實我剛剛說的20億是新藥的暫時性支付，如果包括這些被核准明年會放進去的新藥的話，那邊有46億，加起來將近70億。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊！所以我覺得有這麼多的面向，社會關注的重大議題，都已經有投資下去，也許一時片刻，可能是昨天投資，今天沒有辦法馬上看到成效，但至少方向出來了，這件事情一定要再增加宣傳，不然看到像今天的新聞，我讀完內文，明明就是說我們投資240億下去，尤其是50億在護理人員的夜班加班費，讓護理師的人員出走潮已經大幅減緩，明明內文是這樣，可是標題還是寫護理師還在出走，真的是標題殺人，我覺得這很可惜。第一個，我延續著前面，我希望衛福部在這些社會關注的重大議題，你做到的部分應該要再加強宣傳，這是第一點。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：第二，我們回到今天的人工生殖法，我也是要跟部長就教，其實從國家的面向來看，少子化是現在大家關心的議題，社會能夠有越多孩子、新生命的誕生都是我們樂見的方向，這是第一個。第二個，從個人的角度來說，因為時代不停地在變化，大家剛剛都提到上一次開公聽會，跟人工生殖法相關議題的公聽會已經將近20年前了，這20年來的社會變遷，讓現在適合生育年齡的單身女性，其實比例增高非常多，這是事實，大家都必須承認社會現況就是這樣。所以我們在討論人工生殖法相關的議題，不管是代理孕母也好，或是單身女性是不是可以做人工生殖，確實有越來越高的迫切性，部長，你應該也同意吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：的確，因為現在很多婚姻在離婚率上面近年來有增加。"],["蘇委員巧慧：不只是離婚率，根本就是從要不要進入婚姻狀態，大家都要考慮很多。"],["薛部長瑞元：所謂的單身女性會有這兩塊，一個是曾經結婚過，後來失去婚姻關係，另外就是從來就沒有……"],["蘇委員巧慧：從一開始就沒有選擇進入婚姻狀態。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這兩者在現在的社會上面其實占的比例是高的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：比例滿高的。"],["薛部長瑞元：如果他們想要有自己的小孩，我覺得也沒有什麼太大的理由去排除。"],["蘇委員巧慧：當然是這樣，部長，我問你幾個問題，以現行法律來講，單身女性沒有婚姻狀況可以生小孩嗎？法律有禁止嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，沒有禁止。"],["蘇委員巧慧：單身女性沒有婚姻狀態可以凍卵嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：凍卵也沒有禁止。"],["蘇委員巧慧：單身女性沒有婚姻狀況，用他凍的卵去生小孩，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這在目前的人工生殖法是不行的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：他用凍的卵去生小孩，跟單身女性沒有婚姻關係去生小孩，差別是什麼？以結果論來講，差別是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以在這方面去做一個禁止的動作的話，其實在倫理或道德上面的位置就比較……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啦！所以你如果從這個面向來講，你會覺得我們為什麼要禁止，你會覺得好像哪裡卡住了，對不對？這是第一個狀態。不過我們也承認，以剛剛前面幾位委員提出來的例子，如果是一個胚胎，不是卵，離婚之後它是否還適合成長成為一個生命？如果夫妻兩方之間有人不同意的話，那它還適合嗎？適不適合的原因是在於因為這個生命誕生之後，在社會上有非常多的法律關係存在，這就不只是給予它生命這樣子的一個簡單狀況了嘛！包括如果夫妻關係是有一方，尤其是夫可能不幸死亡之後，要不要讓這個生命誕生在世界上，這又是另外一件事情，所以我其實非常同意剛剛部長說的，你在開頭的時候就有報告說因為這個新生命的誕生其實涉及到了倫理、法律對第三人權益、對兒童的權益保護，都非常複雜且須慎重處理，所以衛福部沒有預設立場，開放討論，我把你逐字抄錄下來，這就是現在衛福部的態度嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我認為是這樣子，我認為今天只有這幾個部會其實完全不夠，因為這件事情真的牽涉的面向太多了，它不只是一個製造生命的過程，它是這個生命誕生之後還牽扯到不只是這個個體，甚至是兩個家族嗎？它是不是需要有家族甚至是第三方等等，有太多的問題，所以我贊成你說應該要慎重考慮，但是這個考慮到底要考慮多久？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是覺得至少要有一些對外蒐集意見的機制，比方說比較正式的是由委員會來開公聽會，可能一次還不夠，因為這裡面的issue太多了，可能要幾次分別對不同的issue去做處理，把各界的意見蒐集過來之後，而且它是一個正式的管道。"],["蘇委員巧慧：正式的管道。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，出來了不管有沒有共識，才可以在審查這個法案的時候作為比較好的參考。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，我是肯定你今天願意採這樣開放的態度，因為表示你這樣其實能夠回應到社會的需求，不過我是認為真的，這個需求的聲音是滿大的，我也希望您剛剛說的步驟，如果真的是需要這樣的步驟我也同意，要有一個正式的、全面的蒐集管道，但這個期程一定要加快。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是本席的意見。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然是這樣子。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席：有請吳玉琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3","speakers":["吳欣盈","林楚茵","謝衣鳯","高嘉瑜","賴惠員","溫玉霞","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","邱泰源","徐志榮","洪申翰","王婉諭","張育美","黃秀芳","陳椒華","范雲","張其祿","林為洲","陳瑩","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","湯蕙禎","莊競程"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；五、委員洪申翰等20\n人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；八、台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129501_00002"}}},{"id":"148843","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148843","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae36218669139bd43076002702538dd8cd552855f1d3fc986728e607a032206a9cdfe7fa3d36a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:59:29 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09:59:21","影片長度":"00:12:11","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就「資安疑慮頻傳，如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-18"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":731,"end_time":"2023-12-04T09:59:21+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T09:47:10+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":291,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時47分）主席，請莊部長。"],["主席：好，莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：部長早。今天第一個想跟部長探討一下，有關我們現在鼓勵小規模營業人能夠導入行動支付，接受消費者使用行動支付，我們為了能夠鼓勵這些小規模的營業人，所以有一個辦法、作業規範，叫做「小規模營業人導入行動支付適用租稅優惠作業規範」，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["沈委員發惠：這個規範好像是107年開始實施，那108年的時候有延長。我看大意大概是這樣子，這個作業規範就是說你如果來申請經過核准，你使用行動支付的話，可以有一些租稅優惠，最主要就是按照營業稅法第三十二條第一項的但書，他就變成營業性質特殊之營業人，對不對？營業性質特殊的營業人就不受使用統一發票的標準限制，對不對？就是銷售額平均每個月要20萬的限制就沒有了，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，縱使超過，也還是適用他原來的。"],["沈委員發惠：對，但是他有一些申請要件，不是說你有用行動支付就可以享受這個租稅優惠，還有一些申請要件，包括你要使用智慧行動載具，包括你要由行動支付業者來提出申請，包括要提供銷售資料、銷售額、營業額等等相關的這些申請條件。那我想請問一下部長，這個規範是從107年就開始了，原本是107年到109年，108年的時候我們再延長5年，會一直實施到114年，就是2025年，會實施到2025年。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["沈委員發惠：那我想請問部長，這個到目前為止的實施成效怎麼樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：到目前為止已經核准的有1萬7,099家小規模營業人適用這一項的優惠。"],["沈委員發惠：1萬7,099家，這個是從107年累積到現在，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["沈委員發惠：107年累積到今年112年，全國才1萬7,099家適用這個租稅優惠來提出申請。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，提出申請，也核准了。"],["沈委員發惠：我們跟去年比較，去年一年大概增加多少家？"],["莊部長翠雲：署長說明一下，委員說今年是不是？"],["沈委員發惠：今年跟去年，我這邊幫你算了啦！今年度大概增加3,000家，對不對？一整年大概增加3,000家，對不對？署長，對不對？"],["宋署長秀玲：是。"],["沈委員發惠：也就是平均一個月差不多233家，233家我們以臺灣的22縣市來看，每個縣市大概一年只增加10家左右而已。部長，這個我們有鼓勵到嗎？我們有推廣到嗎？有沒有檢討這個租稅優惠規範的相關規定？為什麼這麼多年，107年到現在全臺灣才1萬7,000家願意申請？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員做的這張表非常詳細，我們可以看出來，一開始的成長比較快，到後來就呈現一個緩慢的趨勢，我想這個部分我們確實應該要去瞭解原因在哪裡，然後能夠針對這樣的原因去做解決，達到鼓勵小規模營業人能夠導入行動支付，我想這個部分是委員的提示，應該去瞭解。"],["沈委員發惠：對，我現在就是要你們檢討為什麼。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，要找原因嘛！是。"],["沈委員發惠：對，要找原因。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，是不是署長也可以補充？"],["宋署長秀玲：是，報告委員，因為所謂的導入行動支付，小規模營業人還是要符合一些硬體的要件，簡單講他必須要有行動支付的一些設備之類的，所以他們考量的因素很多，但是我們現在請各地區的國稅局加強輔導，其實像有一些中介業者，包含資教業者都有協助我們去宣導怎麼樣去導入。"],["沈委員發惠：我們現在又把行動支付系統整合，用TW QR Code，只要一台機器就可以使用所有臺灣的這些行動支付，照理講這些業者的成本什麼的都應該降低，理論上這個租稅優惠的申請家數應該要增加。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，工具上面給予簡化，然後再去針對他們真正的問題做輔導，我想這是有必要的。"],["沈委員發惠：我們就是要從它的申請要件下去檢討，你說要由行動支付業者提出申請，有兩家以上的規定，還有要提供銷售資料，以及稽徵機關所查定的銷售額、營業額，是不是在這些申請要件上面的的限制，你們應該要做調整呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，我們來檢討。"],["沈委員發惠：再來是這些小額營業人他自己本身的疑慮，我想問署長，請問這些小規模營業人如果導入行動支付申請租稅優惠，他的整體賦稅會不會變重？"],["宋署長秀玲：應該這樣說，就稅率他是維持1%……"],["沈委員發惠：整體賦稅會不會變重？我是問你這個問題。"],["宋署長秀玲：但是他的實際銷售額如果增加，那我們會根據他的實際銷售額來核定。"],["沈委員發惠：不是，他的實際銷售額增加，當然就增加啦！"],["宋署長秀玲：對、對、對。"],["沈委員發惠：我是說他導入這個行動支付之後申請租稅優惠，會不會因為這個申請而使他的賦稅變重？"],["宋署長秀玲：不會，如果他……"],["沈委員發惠：不會？"],["宋署長秀玲：對。"],["沈委員發惠：好，那我跟你講，我問得很清楚，你回答得也很清楚，但是賦稅署出了一個叫做「小規模營業人導入行動支付適用租稅優惠作業規範疑義解答（Q＆A）」，這個Q＆A裡面的第10點，第10點所問的問題Q，就是我剛剛一字不漏問你的問題，但是你們A裡面的回答，不是像你說不會，你們的回答是「未必會增加」。"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，因為這是他實際銷售額增加，剛才委員在問我之前我有特別講，我們這裡指的是他實際銷售額增加。"],["沈委員發惠：所以你們這個Q＆A到底回答了什麼？"],["宋署長秀玲：我們來檢討一下。"],["沈委員發惠：這些小規模營業人就是怕他用這個，他的賦稅反而會增加，你們說不一定會啦！像你剛剛的回答是不會因為這個就增加，結果你們的文字，白紙黑字在Q&A上面寫，人家問你用這個賦稅會不會增加，你們說不一定會，未必會增加。"],["宋署長秀玲：這個寫法是……"],["沈委員發惠：是中文有問題，還是你們邏輯有問題？"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，它是把剛才您問我的前段，實際銷售額增加的時候，它稅負會增加這件事情，它併到這個回答裡面去敘述了。"],["沈委員發惠：有關這個，我們整個都要檢討，包括我剛剛講的這些要件，像你們這種Q&A，你們要設身處地站在這些小規模營業人的立場來想像為什麼大家申請的比例這麼低啦。再來另外一個問題，從實施青安貸款，青年安心成家購屋優惠貸款新的制度在今年8月1日上路，額度提高，年限也延長，利率補貼也增加，所以今年8月到10月，我看成效是爆量，申請是爆量，倍數增加，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，跟去年的同期相較是倍數增加。"],["沈委員發惠：對，跟去年同期是倍數增加，我這裡有一個比較，在去年不管是申請的戶數、核貸的戶數或核貸的金額，或者是受理的戶數、受理的金額幾乎都是倍數成長，所以這個政策應該要多多宣導，我們要讓大家、青年知道現在這個優惠，我們看到實施新的制度之後，就增加這麼多人來申請青安貸款，所以財政部更應該加強宣導我們有這樣子的方案，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，我想因為青安貸款是對於首購族，所以這些應該都是第一次買房子，對他們來說有很大的幫助，讓他們減輕初期貸款的利息。"],["沈委員發惠：雖然現在這樣爆量，但是我看現在新青安貸款8月上路以後公股的辦理情形，在公股來講，我看起來，還集中在臺銀跟土銀，臺銀跟土銀加起來大概就差不多45%了，將近快要一半，其他的公股行庫所占相關的這些業務量，其實都還滿低，他們都還有宣導的空間，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，因為這裡看起來，臺銀跟土銀的比例都占到26%跟25%，很高。"],["沈委員發惠：可是我們的宣導，前幾天有一個叫里長買票被抓的立委候選人說財政部強迫公股做宣導，他說這個是大內宣、這個是洗腦。部長，這樣子的政策對於首次購屋的青年來講，是有這樣子的優惠，而且有這麼大的幫助，我們從8月到10月新的制度實施，我們看到它所爆出來的量跟成效，我們就知道幫助很大，應該要加強宣導，它不是什麼洗腦，也不是什麼大內宣，它就是一個加強宣導，也是除了臺銀、土銀以外，其他公股行庫，包括彰化銀行等公股行庫應該要加強宣導的，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，我們希望首購族都能夠享受到政府的一個優惠措施。"],["沈委員發惠：部長，所以這部分，我希望我們能夠讓更多的首購青年瞭解到我們政府現在有這樣的貸款方式，所有這些行庫，大家都可以做這樣的貸款。這個部分，請你們要加強宣導、要加強宣傳，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，各位請回。","接著請郭國文委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-18","speakers":["費鴻泰","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","沈發惠","郭國文","李貴敏","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","林楚茵","羅明才","張其祿","陳椒華"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129405","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129405_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就「資安疑慮頻傳，如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1129405_00008"}}},{"id":"148841","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148841","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae36218669139f4c0f75b37eaeda491d430b92bdeaf34c986728e607a032279c81dcb1283f79e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"溫玉霞","委員發言時間":"09:47:01 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09:58:22","影片長度":"00:11:21","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號28974）\n三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員洪申翰等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號10041896））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":681,"end_time":"2023-12-04T09:58:22+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T09:47:01+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":219,"blocks":[["溫委員玉霞：（9時47分）請部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["溫委員玉霞：部長早。我們今天要討論的是人工生殖法部分條文修正案，人工生殖法部分條文修正案中有一條是關於代理孕母的爭議，這剛剛有說過了，已經二十幾年、將近三十年了，二十幾年前你們也開過公聽會了，但二十幾年來開來開去都沒有結果，目前有很多醫生跟不孕症的夫妻都希望代理孕母可以合法化，很多媒體也都有報導不少案例，甚至有很多的名人，他們都會到國外去尋求代理孕母，實際上也有很多國家，剛剛也談到33個國家代理孕母已經合法化了，我們的民調也差不多有六成是支持的，但是我們的政府好像比較保守一點，到目前為止好像都還在討論怎麼去處理，我現在要請問部長，你個人支不支持？你贊不贊成？"],["薛部長瑞元：我個人贊不贊成不重要，因為這牽涉的問題真的非常多，現在有一個最大的障礙當然就是代孕者，也就是孕母本身要承受懷孕的風險，所以對他的保護是不是足夠，這是第一個，第二、會變成女人的子宮被用來當成一種工具，有倫理道德上的考量。第三就是子女的法律地位的問題。我剛剛回答賴委員的時候有提到現在的狀況大概就是變成這樣，到國外請代孕者生下來，回來變成要再收養，但是很多的修法版本或者是國外的例子，是用契約去解決這個問題，代孕者跟委託夫妻雙方簽好契約，但是這個契約本身有一些問題，因為它是一個民事契約，民事契約通常會牽涉到他沒有辦法……"],["溫委員玉霞：我們給它規範啊！我們今天就是要討論……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，沒有，委員，我要向你報告，這有一個很大的問題就是在這裡，因為一般民事契約是可以強制執行的，如果違約，我可以要求你損害賠償，只是這樣而已，但是代孕契約是規範什麼可以做、什麼不能做，這種契約內容很難去強制執行。"],["溫委員玉霞：部長，很多夫妻因為身體狀況還是某種因素，就是沒辦法懷孕、沒辦法生產，在這種狀況之下，為什麼我們不能給他一個友善、安全、和緩的路讓他們走？我們為什麼不想辦法？一味只是擔心這個、擔心那個，外國也可以做啊！為什麼我們臺灣就不能做？我們不可以做，那也可以藉助外國，參考他們是怎麼樣規範，我們也照樣訂定法條加以規範，這樣不是很好嗎？這樣不是可以幫助他們嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我要向委員報告就是因為這樣，我們綜合這些我們蒐集到的國際資料……"],["溫委員玉霞：你剛才說二十幾年前就開過公聽會，二十幾年來還要訂，還在開來開去，實在拖太久了啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：其實二十年來社會的狀況是有改變的，所以……"],["溫委員玉霞：現在大概有六成人民都可以接受，不是嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我不敢講這麼武斷的話，說大部分都可以接受，這還是需要民眾再來……因為很多民眾其實並不太清楚這裡面的爭議點在哪裡，並沒有那麼清楚，所以我們覺得……"],["溫委員玉霞：其實要做代理孕母他自己也有心理準備，他如果要做就會想好了，要請他的人也會想好了，所以這種……"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，有時候事情不是這樣，社會上簽契約到最後沒有執行的、違約的一大堆，所以這個一定要想得很清楚。"],["溫委員玉霞：所以今天你們不提版本，就是不贊成？"],["薛部長瑞元：不是，我們還在討論、還在蒐集資料。"],["溫委員玉霞：蒐集快三十年了還在蒐集？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦，社會已經不一樣了，所以所要處理的issue是不一樣的。"],["溫委員玉霞：行政單位動作要快啦！難道我們沒辦法在今天委員的提案中來修正，然後出委員會？沒辦法嗎？今天很多委員都有提案。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員提案老實說都有它不完整的地方，這也要坦白說。"],["溫委員玉霞：我們難道沒辦法針對委員提案加以修正，然後送出去？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是覺得不要那麼倉促比較好，因為這關係重大。"],["溫委員玉霞：我請問你第二個問題，因為這個沒辦法嘛。根據人工生殖法第二十一條，夫妻如果離婚的話，人工形成的胚胎要銷毀，是不是這樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["溫委員玉霞：我要請問如果夫妻雙方都同意保留胚胎的話，為什麼一定要銷毀？"],["薛部長瑞元：這當然可以討論，如果雙方都同意可以來討論。"],["溫委員玉霞：對啊，這是可以考慮的，如果雙方都同意保留胚胎的話。再來，第二個問題，如果一方死亡的話，那也是要強制銷毀，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：過去是這樣。"],["溫委員玉霞：現在可以改變嗎？因為現在不管未婚還是同性，你都可以同意可以人工，為什麼這個問題沒辦法解決？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分其實可以討論，因為已經發生過幾個案子，夫死亡了，妻願意……"],["溫委員玉霞：譬如獨子，已經往生了，他剛好有一個胚胎在這裡，剛好做好了，結果因為他往生了，然後這個家庭說我要留，可是因為我們的法令規定不能保留，這樣子對這個家庭也是一種影響。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然事先的評估還是非常重要，因為你也不能讓這個媳婦的家裡一直要求他要……"],["溫委員玉霞：雙方都要同意……"],["薛部長瑞元：前面要有一個程序……"],["溫委員玉霞：男方家長同意，女方也同意，才可以保留下來。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是這個就是要有一個機制，去確定他是沒有被脅迫的。"],["溫委員玉霞：所以可以考慮，剛剛兩個問題都可以考慮。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["溫委員玉霞：另外一個問題，癌症新藥基金在5月份的時候石署長就說要去考察，今年8月份的時候說我們會參考英國的制度，成立健保總額以外100億的癌症新藥基金，也會成立一個專案辦公室，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["溫委員玉霞：10月份陳院長在總質詢的時候也說沒錯，他同意也答應了，可是為什麼在11月份的時候突然又改變了，我們的基金不見了，辦公室也沒有了，只有編列一點預算放在健保總額裡面，這樣子很多癌症病友擔心是不是會受到排擠，以後要申請是不是會比較慢，甚至排擠到他們的點值，你覺得這樣對他們好嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，有兩點要澄清，第一點，成立辦公室已經確定了，過幾天就會揭幕。"],["溫委員玉霞：基金呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：第二點，這個基金將來我們預定是要擴大到百億，但是今年只有20億，這20億就是參照英國的作法，在我們這邊叫作暫時性支付，其實英國也是這樣，它在這一塊的作法是新藥先讓你使用，如果使用完的效果好就併入到他們的健保署NHS裡面去給付，如果使用的效果不好，它就會排除掉。"],["溫委員玉霞：本來不是說100億從明年開始？結果……"],["薛部長瑞元：現在是從20億開始，因為明年的預算沒有編列這個項目，但是健保那邊已經有留20億來處理。"],["溫委員玉霞：這樣很少！他們會擔心受到排擠，因為金額太少了，本來是100億，結果……"],["薛部長瑞元：這裡面可能有誤會需要澄清一下，這是暫時性支付，讓它先進來，但是之後如果有通過納入到健保給付項目的話，還會有一筆錢，那一筆錢明年是四十幾億。"],["溫委員玉霞：陳院長說癌症基金在明年520之前要法制化，結果現在是消風又縮水了，100億剩下20億。"],["薛部長瑞元：明年就是先放在健保裡面，明年確定是先放在健保裡面。"],["溫委員玉霞：放在健保裡面，他們就是擔心會排擠到他們的點值，而且對於以後的申請也會比較慢。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，那是放在其他部門，並不是在總額之內。"],["溫委員玉霞：他們是擔心這個。"],["薛部長瑞元：那是放在其他的部門，與總額沒有關係。"],["溫委員玉霞：癌症病友擔心這個會排擠。"],["薛部長瑞元：不會啦！"],["溫委員玉霞：他們在講「有錢新藥醫，沒錢穿壽衣」，所以我們要考量一下他們的心態。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然、當然。"],["溫委員玉霞：他們也是我們的國民，大家都很緊張，有癌病的人也不能等，癌症不能等。"],["薛部長瑞元：就是因為這樣才會有這個制度。"],["溫委員玉霞：謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：請蘇巧慧委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3","speakers":["吳欣盈","林楚茵","謝衣鳯","高嘉瑜","賴惠員","溫玉霞","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","邱泰源","徐志榮","洪申翰","王婉諭","張育美","黃秀芳","陳椒華","范雲","張其祿","林為洲","陳瑩","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","湯蕙禎","莊競程"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；五、委員洪申翰等20\n人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草\n案」案；七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案；八、台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129501_00002"}}},{"id":"148840","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148840","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae36218669139bb4b1b8de154fda591d430b92bdeaf34c986728e607a0322f3485a984313fecb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間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09:47:01","影片長度":"00:13:40","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就「資安疑慮頻傳，如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-18"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":820,"end_time":"2023-12-04T09:47:01+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T09:33:21+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":161,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時33分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請財政部的莊部長以及八大行庫的董事長。"],["主席：請莊部長跟八大行庫的董事長──是金控還是銀行？"],["賴委員士葆：金控。"],["主席：金控，如果沒有金控的話，就是銀行。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：幾位長官先看一下，今年幾乎是這幾年來金控賺最多的一年吧，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：獲利，獲利不錯。"],["賴委員士葆：獲利最好嘛！兆豐雷董事長，聽說員工很喜歡你，說你很大方，你們到10月底賺了288億，對吧？"],["雷董事長仲達：是的。"],["賴委員士葆：明年加薪多少？"],["雷董事長仲達：4.5%。"],["賴委員士葆：有人在講你現在賺這麼多，4.5%是半年前預估的，現在賺這麼多，可以再加個0.5%，有沒有可能？"],["雷董事長仲達：謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有可能再加0.5%？"],["雷董事長仲達：因為配合公教人員的4%……"],["賴委員士葆：你不能只給……"],["雷董事長仲達：所以我們也是要斟酌，我想除了加薪之外，很多的福利我們可以來加強，好不好？"],["賴委員士葆：我看到的是一銀4%、華銀4%、彰銀4%，合庫都不加是不是？董董事長，合庫都不加嗎？"],["董董事長瑞斌：報告委員，我們也是以4%為目標，但是我們平常就是……"],["賴委員士葆：確定沒有？"],["董董事長瑞斌：確定了！"],["賴委員士葆：4%？"],["董董事長瑞斌：4%。"],["賴委員士葆：確定4%嗎？"],["董董事長瑞斌：對，但是我們還有晉級加薪，那個是2.66%，是外加的。"],["賴委員士葆：好，還一個是臺企，臺企是多少？"],["張總經理志堅：4%。"],["賴委員士葆：是4%，臺灣金控跟土銀也是4%嗎？"],["沈董事長榮津：對。"],["賴委員士葆：都是4%嗎？"],["沈董事長榮津：對。"],["賴委員士葆：好。部長，有一個問題就是，剛才合庫董事長講賺了這麼多錢，你們還要摳員工的伙食費600塊，以前是2,400塊免稅，今年財政部調到3,000塊，就是加了600塊變成3,000塊，結果所有要加薪的行庫都把600塊變成included、內加、內含，應該是要外加才對，就這600塊我要跟你講的是，這600塊應該要外加而不是內含，部長，你知道我在講什麼嗎？你知道我講什麼吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：因為我們這一次從2,400塊調到3,000塊……"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，那個是說不用把它放到員工的薪水裡面去。"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分是不納入員工薪資，所以不會列入他的綜合所得裡面。"],["賴委員士葆：雷董事長，你們是賺最多錢的，你們把這個600塊內含啊！財政部多給600塊，你把它內含了，所以等於沒有加。"],["雷董事長仲達：沒有，我們再加給他們。"],["賴委員士葆：extra、外加可以吧！"],["雷董事長仲達：是extra。"],["賴委員士葆：是extra？"],["雷董事長仲達：對。"],["賴委員士葆：我要問臺灣金控的董事長，你們是內含的喔！你們是內含。你是內含或外加？"],["沈董事長榮津：抱歉！我剛剛沒有注意到。"],["賴委員士葆：你剛才outsider，沒有認真聽啊！現在所有公股行庫金控員工的伙食費加600塊，你知道嗎？你也不知道！"],["沈董事長榮津：這個我沒有注意到。"],["賴委員士葆：來，呂董事長說明一下，沈董事長連這個也不知道，這是勞工的權利，就是600塊，對不對？"],["呂董事長桔誠：國營行庫都是內含的。"],["賴委員士葆：你說國營行庫內含，可是合庫是外加。"],["雷董事長仲達：是兆豐。"],["賴委員士葆：兆豐是外加，那合庫呢？"],["董董事長瑞斌：報告委員，處理的方式不同啦！因為以前在省屬行庫的時候都是內含，但是後來改變成……"],["賴委員士葆：現在改成外加啦！"],["董董事長瑞斌：我們合庫銀行是外加，每一家處理的方式不同。"],["賴委員士葆：請問彰化銀行的凌董事長，你們的員工叫得很大聲，說你苛刻員工，這應該是外加，怎麼會變內含呢？你不是臺、土銀啊！如果是臺、土銀就另外講。"],["凌董事長忠嫄：沒有，我們沒有苛刻員工啊！"],["賴委員士葆：那你為什麼把它內含而不要外加呢？像兆豐就是外加，兆豐可以外加。"],["凌董事長忠嫄：因為財政部有公布，就是伙食費……"],["賴委員士葆：你是彰化銀行，又不是財政部，又不是臺、土銀！"],["凌董事長忠嫄：我們是依照財政部相關的規定。"],["賴委員士葆：你已經上市……"],["凌董事長忠嫄：對，那對員工來講的話……"],["賴委員士葆：你是泛公股，你不是純公股，所以不一樣啦！"],["凌董事長忠嫄：不是，我們為員工的福利著想的話，我們把他的伙食費加了600塊之後，其實這部分是屬於他的免稅所得啦！所以我們會……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，你是 included，我現在要跟你們講，請部長好好研究啦！八大行庫一視同仁，你不要讓大家心裡覺得不一樣，兆豐就外加，其他的就是內含，這個東西會造成相對剝奪感，部長，去研究一下吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們再瞭解什麼內含、外加。"],["賴委員士葆：一視同仁都外加，不要內含啦！不一樣啦！差很多啦！少了600塊，1年就差7,200塊。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我瞭解一下。"],["賴委員士葆：你知道我的意思吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：我想委員您的意思應該是指伙食費是不是要把它放在薪資外面……"],["賴委員士葆：對，就是你不要放在薪資裡面嘛！伙食費要放在薪資外啦！對不對？不能放在加薪裡面啦！它不算在加薪的那4%裡面啦！你這樣等於是扣了600塊啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：我瞭解這個意思，那我們再進一步瞭解好不好？"],["賴委員士葆：我剛剛列了那個各家銀行獲利的表，每一家都大賺錢，還跟員工計較600塊，沒有道理、沒有天良啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：瞭解。"],["賴委員士葆：各位董事長，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：我瞭解委員的意思，我們再進一步瞭解各銀行的作法。"],["賴委員士葆：各位董事長請回，特別是彰化銀行凌董事長的回答是非常的狀況外，你不是土銀也不是臺銀的董事長，你是彰化銀行，所以不一樣，如果今天是講臺銀、土銀，還可以講，可是你今天是彰化銀行，不能這樣講，你要比照兆豐。","來，我們來看，今天是講資訊的問題，綜合所得稅可以線上報稅，對吧！網頁報稅可以嘛！就是用手機驗證。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["賴委員士葆：可是營所稅、營業稅、遺產稅、贈與稅要下載特別的軟體，請張主任，因為我知道只有張主任才有辦法回答這個問題，什麼時候可以不需要下載軟體、直接比照綜所稅用網頁申報、手機驗證、線上報稅，可以嗎？"],["張主任文熙：這個我們再研究一下。"],["賴委員士葆：不是研究一下啦！"],["張主任文熙：因為這個稅的方式不一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：這個要做很快啦！"],["張主任文熙：因為它會發單子……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你有沒有往這個方向努力？"],["張主任文熙：我們會往這個方向來努力啦！"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候會有答案？"],["張主任文熙：我想會在更新系統之後，我們預計在114年……"],["賴委員士葆：明年6月可以吧！"],["張主任文熙：114年會有新系統，目前的系統到113年還是舊系統。"],["賴委員士葆：到113年還是舊系統，所以我能不能講從114年開始包括營所稅、營業稅、遺贈稅通通不需要再下載一個軟體？那個就像盲腸一樣啊！直接我們就一樣線上報稅，進步一點啦！與時俱進可以嗎？"],["張主任文熙：我們會納入規劃、考量。"],["賴委員士葆：你們會規劃嘛！"],["張主任文熙：但是確實的時間目前……"],["賴委員士葆：這個對你們來講是a piece of cake啦！是要不要做而已啊！部長，要不要做？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，委員的目的是要督促我們儘量……"],["賴委員士葆：更有效率一點啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，更便利、更有效。"],["賴委員士葆：對啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：對這些稅目我們再來研究一下，第一個，國稅目前在改造，整個系統因為太舊了，所以114年新系統會開始運作，那這些稅目可不可能不需要下載軟體，我們是不是再來規劃一下，好不好？"],["賴委員士葆：好。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員士葆：你在報告裡面提到紅隊演練，就是怕外面駭客入侵了，你們假裝去攻擊什麼之類的，總共花了多少錢？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分是不是請我們張主任說明？"],["賴委員士葆：可以，請問主任，花了多少錢？"],["張主任文熙：大概400萬左右。"],["賴委員士葆：400萬喔？效果怎麼樣？"],["張主任文熙：我覺得效果相當不錯，就是他有看出我們原來沒有想到的一些進攻的方式。"],["賴委員士葆：那壓力測試你們有過關嗎？"],["張主任文熙：壓力測試都有過關。"],["賴委員士葆：過關？"],["張主任文熙：對。"],["賴委員士葆：上線了沒有？已經上線了嗎？"],["張主任文熙：您講的是……"],["賴委員士葆：上線就是開始運轉啦！"],["張主任文熙：您講的是哪一個系統呢？"],["賴委員士葆：就是稅務的系統。"],["張主任文熙：那個稅務的還沒有系統，最快的應該是發票，發票是明年1月。"],["賴委員士葆：我現在在跟你講稅喔！來，看好喔！我從經濟部商業司可以找到公司負責人的姓名，也可以找到個人身分證，我們現在不要懷疑，部長，你我的名字都被賣掉了，我們的個資都被賣掉了，在世界上都在買賣，結果呢？來，我們來看下一頁，比如說張三是A公司的負責人，我進去財政部電子申報繳稅服務網裡面，就可以重新reset、重新設定裡面的一些參數等等，簡單來講，就是現在我們的個資已經外洩，我透過經濟部知道哪一家公司的負責人，比如說這個負責人叫賴某某，然後我看到他的身分證，我用他的身分進到財政部的網頁裡面，然後報稅的資料就可以改，多繳的變少繳、少繳的變多繳，看要達到的目的是什麼，變成這個樣子啊！"],["張主任文熙：我是不是可以補充一下？經濟部的這個部分因為他是營業人，而登記的營業人資料是必須要公開的，所以這些是可以查得到，但是他查到的時候，到財政部的密碼不應該會是一樣的。"],["賴委員士葆：我們已經有人進去了，我現在就告訴你已經有人進去了，透過你這個電子申報繳稅服務網，就進去裡面，這些都可以reset、更改，請問怎麼辦？我剛剛特別問你紅隊演練，你沒有演練到這個地方啊！稅的資料如果被竄改，怎麼辦？"],["張主任文熙：我想這個部分我們會針對密碼的驗證部分再做加強，就是要求它有雙重、兩種因子的……"],["賴委員士葆：我知道你的答案就在這裡啦！其實你的密碼提示，人家駭客要做很簡單，他破你這個都很容易啦！用幾個下去跑幾次，密碼就跑出來了。我剛才很遺憾的聽到，我以為你們的報告很偉大──紅隊演練，其實大家最在意的不是只有發票啦！在意的是稅啦！綜所稅、營所稅、營業稅，最在意這個，結果你們現在這個東西是開大門，根本空空的，要加強，好不好？"],["張主任文熙：是。"],["賴委員士葆：我這裡就兩個重點，第一個重點，我們希望一年以後能夠全部線上，不要再下載你的軟體；第二個，稅的資安問題，我覺得可以再強化，目前不夠，目前看到的是沒有做這個事情。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們瞭解一下，就是一個名字加上身分證字號就可以進到我們報稅系統裡面改資料，這個我們再詳細瞭解一下情況，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，各位請回。","接著請沈發惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-18","speakers":["費鴻泰","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","沈發惠","郭國文","李貴敏","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","林楚茵","羅明才","張其祿","陳椒華"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129405","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129405_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就「資安疑慮頻傳，如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1129405_00008"}}},{"id":"148838","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148838","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae36218669139c1778cff27429c06dd8cd552855f1d3fc986728e607a03227f1d54b67cc1d2975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:22:57 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09:33:09","影片長度":"00:10:12","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就「資安疑慮頻傳，如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-18"},"date":"2023-12-04","duration":612,"end_time":"2023-12-04T09:33:09+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-04T09:22:57+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":103,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時22分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長早。在去年9月及今年5月到7月，國內有一家銀行，當然是民營的，它的65家分行都發生資料外洩，有1萬4,000名客戶的資料外洩，被金管會罰了1,000萬，這個事情你應該知道吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：從媒體上有看到。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，請問公股銀行這邊有沒有這樣子資料外洩的可能，以及有沒有發生這樣的案例？或許規模沒有這麼大，比較小規模的有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：公股銀行部分，我們大概瞭解有一些資安通報的事項，但是按照它的等級來分的話，它是屬於第一級、第二級，不是屬於重大的資安事件。但是我覺得資安是不能鬆懈的，不能因為現在沒有，以後就不會發生，我們一定要做一些預防，然後嚴密資安系統的一個完整性。"],["吳委員秉叡：聽你這樣回答，不是沒有，只是它的層級沒有這麼嚴重。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有這麼高，對，所以這個一定要……"],["吳委員秉叡：所以還是有發生一些，只是它的狀況可能是洩漏少數的人，而不是像這樣大規模的。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，既然有發生，我覺得一定要做一些檢討，作為精進的警示功能。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個本身是資訊安全啦！但是另外一點，現在的詐騙犯罪很多，詐騙犯罪裡面有很多是透過銀行系統，當然銀行是不知情，其實從某一個角度來講，銀行也是被害，但是如何配合政府的設施，用銀行的角度來講，能夠讓詐騙的狀況減少，或是讓詐騙犯在轉帳等各方面不方便，使他不能再利用這樣的體系，至少去壓抑他，有沒有什麼比較好的方法？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想委員提示的很對，關於這部分，因為通常詐騙跟金流會有關係，所以我們在銀行端一定要發揮防詐、識詐的作用，在客戶開戶的時候要詳細瞭解他開戶的目的是什麼，以及他帳戶未來的用途是什麼，對於開戶者要多加瞭解。第二個就是對於一些警示的帳戶要有警覺性，一定要做處理；同時我們要配合金管會的相關措施，以及所謂的灰名單，就是約定轉帳的灰名單也要有非常重要的處理。還有櫃員非常重要，櫃員在承辦時可以多問客戶幾句，如果在這個過程當中，因為櫃員的關懷而讓詐騙沒有辦法進行下去，我們對於這個櫃員應該要加強獎勵，然後能夠讓其他的行員也都知道，我們也要把案例做分享，這樣大家可以多學習，然後更精進。我想這個部分銀行絕對是責無旁貸，要一起來做這個工作的。"],["吳委員秉叡：有沒有統計過，在採取這些措施之後，詐騙的數量有降低的趨勢跟狀況？"],["莊部長翠雲：就是說發現了多少詐騙的……"],["吳委員秉叡：就是減少了多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：減少多少，這個部分的數字是不是……"],["吳委員秉叡：沒有統計？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前我們還沒有統計。是。"],["吳委員秉叡：好。11月29號你們財政部也發現有用釣魚的電子郵件假冒報稅服務，然後說要退稅，請收件者點那個系統進去，有發現這樣的案例，這也是另外一種詐騙，它是利用報稅或是要退稅這樣的機會在詐欺客戶，這部分你有沒有什麼好的宣傳，因為一般的民眾，尤其年紀稍大一點的，他搞不清楚這些網站到底是誰的網站。"],["莊部長翠雲：這部分發現了以後我們一定都有相關的處理，然後截止，但是我想委員您這個提示就是我們要做什麼宣導，也就是第一個宣導的目的是讓民眾不要再受騙；第二個目的就是讓這些詐騙者不要存僥倖的心理，因為我們會抓得到，因為我們是24小時在監控這些偽冒的網站及釣魚網站，我覺得這具有兩方面的功能，我們應該再加強宣導。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，我知道你應該要加強宣導，但我是問你，你要如何加強宣導，讓社會大眾比較能夠瞭解這樣的狀況，減少這樣的事情發生？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我想我們可以從多元的管道，不管是新聞媒體或我們的臉書等等各方面來做。是。"],["吳委員秉叡：好。另外，我要再跟你請教，這個議題是本席從12年前到現在都還持續一直在關心的，就是暴險的問題，中國的中融信託最近爆了，你知道嗎？它的基金利息賠付不出來。中融信託當然規模比較小，但是它是一個非常大的金融機構「中植集團」底下的一員，因為中植集團做了很多中國的房貸，在中國做房貸，中國現在的房地產都很慘，爛尾樓也蓋不完，各方面都很慘，包括恆大、碧桂園等等，很多大型的房企都爆雷。除了它本身是金融機構之外，中植系還有一個規模很大的業務是它的租賃業，就是拿比較高一點的租金，然後承擔一些風險比較大的債務。當然我們沒有辦法管到中國的金融機構，但是我們9家公股銀行對中國的暴險持續減少，我對此很肯定，然而就算持續減少，現在仍然還有二千多億，這還不包括沒有被金管會監管的影子銀行租賃公司等等。中國的經濟，它的財政明顯很快速地要出問題，在這樣的狀況之下，有什麼好的方法讓我們的暴險不會變成爆雷？你有沒有什麼樣的想法？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。跟委員報告，確實我們在大陸暴險的部分逐年下降，目前是2,143億，占比是12%，就是占它的淨值比。剛剛您提到大陸的經濟成長趨緩，甚至在不動產的部分，包括碧桂園等等的一些爆雷的情形，當然銀行都會受到牽連，我們會持續的督請我們的公股代表，對於大陸地區的不管是徵授信或您剛剛講的相關業務，還有貸後管理的措施要加強進行控管，同時對於客戶整體暴險的狀況也要進行控管，也就是說我們在大陸的客戶，對於他的情形要加強控管，我想這個部分是應該要做的。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在9家公股銀行在中國的客戶，如果照以前張盛和在當財政部長的時候，他跟我回答說主要都是做臺商，那現在呢？主要還是臺商？還是有一些中國那邊的企業？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，主要當然還是臺商為主。"],["吳委員秉叡：臺商為主，但所謂的為主、為輔是怎麼樣？50%也可以說為主，比例是怎麼樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：比例的部分，我們手邊並沒有資料，是不是讓我們會後再來做一些瞭解，然後跟委員報告。"],["吳委員秉叡：我還記得在2015年的時候，還有某家公股銀行在大陸放貸的時候被錄影有收回扣的狀況，那個事情處理了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：哪一家銀行？我不瞭解，是彰銀嗎？還是哪一家？"],["吳委員秉叡：我是說那個人員後來有移送法辦，處理的狀況怎麼樣，這個你們有追蹤嗎？"],["蕭署長家旗：2015年的，應該都有處理了。"],["莊部長翠雲：有處理，但是哪一家銀行，是不是……"],["吳委員秉叡：進入司法程序之後，你們就沒有管就對了，就是反正把他送到司法機關去處理……"],["莊部長翠雲：司法處理，對、對、對，是。"],["吳委員秉叡：好。我現在希望你們能夠統計，到底你說的暴險二千一百多億，多少比例是臺商的、多少比例非臺商的，至少要給一個大概的數字。"],["莊部長翠雲：好的。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外我們9家公股銀行在中國都是設立分行，不是子行嘛，有沒有是子行的？有哪個是子行？"],["莊部長翠雲：彰銀。"],["吳委員秉叡：彰銀如果是設立子行，子行是比較好的，你知道嗎？因為子行跟母行是不同的法人……"],["莊部長翠雲：對。是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以中間還有一個防火牆可以隔開，分行是沒辦法隔開的。"],["莊部長翠雲：防火牆，是，隔開，對。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以在中國的分行將來如果踩雷、爆雷之後，整個母公司都會受到影響，從分行會燒回來。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，沒錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以此事要特別慎重，我從以前到現在就一直在關注，希望你們能夠努力。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：其實臺商在中國的製造業也慢慢有一些在轉移了，有一些移回來臺灣，有一些移到東南亞，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果沒有必要的，像現在我們臺灣的利率搞不好都比中國的利率要高，只是你在中國的銀行可能借不到錢，臺商在中國的銀行可能借不到錢。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：以前因為中國的利率高，臺灣的利率低，有很多臺企在臺灣借錢然後到中國去花，因為這樣他的資金成本比較低。現在狀況有點不一樣，是不是再進一步瞭解？你們公股銀行暴險金額大筆下降可能跟這一點也有關係，跟利率之間的轉換也有一些關係，所以多去瞭解一下好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，好。"],["吳委員秉叡：希望下一次有機會，你可以跟我講這個比例。謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，各位請回。接著請賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-18","speakers":["費鴻泰","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","沈發惠","郭國文","李貴敏","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","林楚茵","羅明才","張其祿","陳椒華"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2023-12-04"],"gazette_id":"1129405","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129405_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就「資安疑慮頻傳，如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1129405_00008"}}},{"id":"148837","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148837","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae362186691392e632a66117e5307dd8cd552855f1d3fc986728e607a0322ea90fa9c19d9589c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:09:31 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劉千平"},{"start":2666.737,"end":2685.141,"text":"今天公聽會有一些程序我先跟大家報告首先我們會先請部會做簡短的報告之後再請學者專家發言以初期簽到的順序為原則陳老師您還是要堅持您要最後一位嗎"},{"start":2686.301,"end":2692.829,"text":"每位發言時間8分鐘本月委員要發言就要到主席台登記與兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間5分鐘最後再由與會的接官代表回應說明"},{"start":2708.165,"end":2720.87,"text":"發言台陣前方的燈號是倒數計時有沒有看到那個燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲你聽到按鈴一聲的時候表示說你還有一分鐘發言時間結束就會按鈴兩聲"},{"start":2726.692,"end":2729.013,"text":"徐蕾熙徐蕾熙徐蕾熙"},{"start":2765.458,"end":2784.492,"text":"各位委員、各位女士、先生今天奉邀列席貴人會來召開為落實新住民權益保障探討通譯人才培訓與認證制度的公聽會本部就討論提綱狩獵議題"},{"start":2787.335,"end":2797.99,"text":"我們先分別說明無下就交給各位委員各位女士先生如果有寶貴的意見提出來供本部來參考"},{"start":2801.437,"end":2818.793,"text":"本部的意見就目前討論通譯制度的運作尚無困難之處本部的通譯制度是依照檢察機關辦理刑事案件使用通譯運行注意事項"},{"start":2820.775,"end":2842.73,"text":"以及檢察機關通譯的倫理規範還有高檢署及其檢察分署建置特約通譯名冊及議會禮會報酬知己的一個要點來辦理臺高檢跟各分署都依照特約通譯知己的要點來建置特約通譯的名冊"},{"start":2844.191,"end":2865.051,"text":"也依照它的訴訟轄區各自招聘特業的通譯人員並辦理後續訓練、評核依目前所聘任的特業通譯人員包含外語、鎖語、原住民語等通譯人才以兩年為一起來招聘"},{"start":2866.249,"end":2876.904,"text":"目前徵嫌名冊建制培訓、汰換等制度運作上並沒有困難也持續就特約通譯及各種語言列別加以擴充來符合實際需求"},{"start":2879.164,"end":2904.341,"text":"本部最有通譯政策的具體積極作為依照時序在今年的3月21日就召開了延伸精進通譯制度的諮詢會議邀請到跟司法通譯業務相關的機關實務上會有經驗的資深通譯跟學者來參加就通譯教育的訓練通譯服務之"},{"start":2907.714,"end":2920.498,"text":"毛主席要念快一點還是還是重點念一念一下基本上我們行政單位就三分鐘就重點念一念一下重點說一下好了你發現我們訪問過得還蠻長的好那我重點因為我看時間上大概也不夠那麼就實際上3月21號有開了這個諮詢會議那麼就召集相關的這個專家學者來與會了"},{"start":2933.762,"end":2940.648,"text":"最主要作為監禁本部研議通譯制度的重要參考其實在同年4月13日我們內部也做了一個討論這個就是初步達成的一個結論"},{"start":2948.855,"end":2950.558,"text":"本部就教育訓練的部分在6月27號同年"},{"start":2964.417,"end":2964.557,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2992.8,"end":3019.509,"text":"司法通譯的服務履歷建制涉及其實不是只有本部本部只是其中之一那麼這裡有關相關政策方向的擬定其實這個不是本部所主導的那麼它的本部就以這些相關的一些建制以建立較常使用的這些有關於使用通譯傳譯的一些反應表那麼這中間包括多國的一個語言包括八國語言的語譯本"},{"start":3020.789,"end":3029.396,"text":"在同年8月30日有將這些語譯本送給各機關來去參討依照這個知情要點的14點也在使用這些案件開庭之後提供該意見反映表給各個相關參與的包括檢察官、被告、一些相關人員也是包括律師由他們就以這個使用的反應來回收讓我們知道我們在研擬招聘通譯的同時要注意一些哪些事項"},{"start":3049.431,"end":3070.476,"text":"還有有關於通譯服務去落實的機關部門現行的通譯大概分為司法通譯跟公共事務的通譯跟外語的諮詢三類本部負責人司法的通譯其他就由各部會來負責在有關討論提綱2的部分是不是要進一個跨院級的通譯制度來整合"},{"start":3076.657,"end":3087.227,"text":"有關本部的意見就是說這個政策是涉及各機關的一個並且我們在行政院的新住民事務協調會13週會議也有決定有內政部來邀請相關機關盤點並綜合各項具體的建議大概要2到3年的一個計畫"},{"start":3094.954,"end":3105.86,"text":"內政部剛剛我們主席也有提示到他們在8月2號也有一個這個所謂的事辦的計畫事實上行政院在同年921也邀請本部跟相關的機關來召開會議這個部分內政部已經積極在研擬就相關部會的意見在修正當中有關立法規範專責通譯的機構來整合跨業及通譯的制度"},{"start":3121.249,"end":3148.614,"text":"事實上我們剛剛如前所述這個是涉及到通譯政策所以我們本部尊重貴院會跟議會專家學者的一個相關寶貴的意見最後一個是不是有成立這個專責通譯機構那麼本部認為如果有必要成立專責機構當然這個要涵蓋到行政機關行政法人或輔導民間成立通譯專業協會那麼本部尊重議會的專家學者及相關譴責機關的意見謝謝大家"},{"start":3156.232,"end":3159.354,"text":"主席各與會機關大家好移民署針對這個通譯服務進行簡介那個簡報沒有簡報"},{"start":3185.196,"end":3185.436,"text":"剪報剪報剪報剪報剪報"},{"start":3204.677,"end":3204.818,"text":"通譯人員資料庫"},{"start":3218.069,"end":3218.089,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3240.811,"end":3245.154,"text":"外來人士來臺的生活資訊主要是針對1990這支專線原本他的0800-024-111因為太長不易記憶所以外僑也建議我們要各國的商會都建議我們修正所以我們也花了一筆錢"},{"start":3258.163,"end":3258.323,"text":"中英日24小時"},{"start":3272.828,"end":3278.291,"text":"在移民輔導通譯人員的部分本署在全國各地25個服務站都設有移民輔導的通譯人員這些通譯人員原則上每天都會有不同語言的排班也會公告在各服務站的資訊網主要是協助這些出來乍到的新住民來台之後他們可能需要來申請資料或者是洽詢一些服務所以他們就是在現場提供填寫以及輔導"},{"start":3298.161,"end":3298.801,"text":"一百一十年到一百一十二年來到了五十二案"},{"start":3323.551,"end":3326.994,"text":"本屬在今年跟明年都將進行兩階段的詞彙資料庫的建立,這個詞彙資料庫首先針對越南語跟印語較多人使用的語言別,我們目標是各1000,我們希望透過這個基礎發展出來之後再擴及到其他的語言別"},{"start":3345.752,"end":3356.277,"text":"最後是通譯制度的精進部分行政院已經有交易本署要在今年已經提報了一個事辦計畫這個通譯制度事辦計畫包括各語言別還有包括各項的參訓人員的資格還有他們的費用的部分我們也都做了一些調整的一些規劃跟設計這個計畫抱怨是行政院核定之後就可以實施以上"},{"start":3378.434,"end":3383.498,"text":"謝謝黃瑜組長接下來我們邀請內政部警政署李希和副署長報告"},{"start":3396.92,"end":3412.555,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士 先生 大家早本市警舊警察機關通譯的招募培訓檢測驗及應用情形作檢調報告報告如下 進行指教第一 建立通譯人才庫"},{"start":3414.013,"end":3427.035,"text":"為保障新住民及外籍人士權益並滿足嚴謹受理社會案件使用通譯的需求本署從106年起及輔導各直轄市縣市政府、警察局辦理"},{"start":3428.356,"end":3445.114,"text":"通譯獎席賬戶人才到今年10月底至警察機關列冊通譯的人才計有1525人共25種議員其中東南亞以細人才佔8成5以上職員充足第二 監禁培訓測驗"},{"start":3446.596,"end":3457.966,"text":"建立常見的議員人才已有飽和情形本署參區澳洲國議員認證測驗訂定講習計畫並由各警察機關實施合比式測驗以擇優選才今年共有913人來參加講習710人通過測驗合格比例為77.77%第三建制演技體傳譯機制"},{"start":3472.679,"end":3500.853,"text":"考量偏鄉或漢建以來案件原檢較然顯認通譯及時到場本屬於參與歐盟行事司法機關的機制定班警察機關涉案案件使用遠距離傳譯作為程序原檢依然得應用視訊設備及與通譯連線第四落實案件的審核為確保涉案案件處理品質及保障通譯權益"},{"start":3502.537,"end":3530.019,"text":"本時規定各警察機關應逐案審核通譯案件並案內呈報本時合乎及電話抽訪迄今通譯都表示以嚴謹配合良好並能如期收到通譯費用第五充實通譯預算警察機關通譯費標準是依照勞動部所訂定地方政府辦理非營利組織陪同外國人接受新住民要點辦理"},{"start":3531.178,"end":3546.165,"text":"今年度勞動部補助的通緯費用及各警察機關執行備內的預算堅實充足且明年亦以寬內預算預估經費無疑以上報告敬請各位委員先進事務指教謝謝謝謝副署長接下來是勞動部專門委員王 邀請黃偉智專門委員報告"},{"start":3560.731,"end":3577.038,"text":"好各位委員各位專家學員大家好那勞動部這邊請就就是移工先行通譯服務困境還有就是因應作為檢要報告如下進行指教好那有關外國人就是移工在台工作期間的通譯服務的制度目前有"},{"start":3577.458,"end":3593.951,"text":"大約6項的部分那我這邊請要做一個說明那第一個就是在我們各地方政府22個地方政府總共有配置了130名的雙語服務人員提供這個工作諮詢或是正義相關的諮詢申訴服務那另外也有協助警政跟移民單位做相關的協助"},{"start":3595.172,"end":3601.76,"text":"移工機場服務站有66名雙移服務人員提供雙移法令諮詢、出國申訴等協助在航廈內也有協助航警局、國軍事務大隊、機關署等協助在今年都有成立移工一戰時的服務中心"},{"start":3615.896,"end":3640.906,"text":"有配置了80名的雙語服務人員那這邊有提供生活的管理、課程輔導、法律宣導等等相關的協助另外就是1955勞工諮詢申訴專線這邊有提供了24小時全年無休的一個線上的三方通譯協助那這邊人員配置了49人那另外就是我們的非營利組織陪同外國人接受詢問的這個部分有協助外國人遭受人身侵害、職業災害相關的一些詢問的協助"},{"start":3642.186,"end":3665.399,"text":"另外在目前的救護法有規定中介機構也要聘僱一定的雙語人員提供外國人相關的一個協助目前的一個困境跟經濟作為大概有四點第一個就是通譯培訓的資格要件的部分以目前我們的陪同的要點是沒有規範華語文的一個規範這個部分可能會發生就是語域不清或是不精準一些相關的一些誤解"},{"start":3666.039,"end":3692.208,"text":"那我們這個部分會去配合就是移民署剛剛提到會訂定的所謂通譯制度精進事辦計畫的草案的部分那我們會在華語文的部分去訂定相關的一個資格要件那第一個就是通譯培訓的課程的部分那目前是在我們的規定是沒有去規範通譯培訓的課程那後續也會配合這個移民署的精進事辦的計畫去規劃相關的一個就業服務的一個課程那另外在通譯費用一直到今年"},{"start":3692.948,"end":3710.985,"text":"106年到現在都沒有做調整那這個部分我們會配合去做一個調整那另外在雙語詞彙的一個部分那目前就是因為雙語通譯人員使用的詞彙不一致那也可能會導致在專有名詞的部分會在讓外國人理解上面會有一些混淆或誤解"},{"start":3711.665,"end":3736.674,"text":"後續我們會去盤點相關的一個詞彙去建置多國語的一個詞彙去納入國家文德樂詞網那勞動部後續還是會針對健全外國人通譯的一個服務的一個部分那去強化我們的一個培訓的一個要件培訓的課程我們的通譯的費用還有雙語的詞彙去落實保障通譯服務使用者跟外國人的權益那以上報告敬請各位委員先進指教謝謝"},{"start":3744.316,"end":3749.561,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝勞動部再來是衛福部醫事司李念慈檢證計政的報告"},{"start":3756.823,"end":3777.828,"text":"主席還有各位與會關心今天這個通會議題的這個與會貴賓大家好那衛生福利部就今天的這三個議題來做一個綜合的說明那首先就先說明一下因為衛生這個社會福利與醫療的部分最主要就是因為它有涉及到專有名詞特別是它一些專業名詞的部分"},{"start":3778.328,"end":3778.468,"text":"董事長"},{"start":3793.707,"end":3793.767,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3821.693,"end":3821.913,"text":"立法院第12會議"},{"start":3851.853,"end":3852.153,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會議"},{"start":3868.905,"end":3893.459,"text":"國際醫療,因為衛生福利部在推動國際醫療也是非常多年了,那需要蠻多的也是需要一些翻譯的人員來進來,因此部裡面也有針對這樣子的,特別是在整個外國的人來台就醫的一個在越南跟印尼的這個人的比例上面有來去特別做這個"},{"start":3894.602,"end":3896.003,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":3912.799,"end":3913.54,"text":"國內立法院統一專責機構及其統一制度如何建立"},{"start":3934.235,"end":3935.596,"text":"司法院司法行政廳專門委員羅敏榮"},{"start":3967.462,"end":3989.258,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家好那司法院報告關於議題一的部分呢司法院目前因應法庭傳譯的需要從95年開始是採行特約通譯制度那目前呢是有21種語言類別263名的特約通譯備選人公法院在審理案件的時候可以選定合適的通譯來進行傳譯"},{"start":3990.859,"end":4016.3,"text":"那面臨的問題就是近年來呢東南亞語系的法庭傳譯需求增加司法院已經有函請我們的所屬法院市轄區內實際傳譯的需求廣納各種優秀通譯人才那只是目前面臨的是東南亞語系的檢定或認證問題是希望說未來有權責機關可以建立還有推廣東南亞語系的語言檢定或者是認證機制來提升傳譯品質"},{"start":4019.763,"end":4041.298,"text":"司法院進進通譯制度的相關做法請大家可以參閱書面資料我們包括在法規、教育訓練、行政措施以及監督等各方面都有一些做法這邊可能特別要提出來說明的是在會議資料的第4頁有提到說報酬的部分每日500元其實這個是日費的部分"},{"start":4042.478,"end":4064.546,"text":"法院的通譯除了可以領到日費之外每次的傳譯還可以領到500元到7500元不等的報酬另外還有旅費那在教育訓練的部分呢也除了這個22小時就是會議資料第4頁所寫的22小時之外他還有續聘的這個教育訓練那每年我們的法官學院也會舉辦"},{"start":4066.246,"end":4088.853,"text":"通譯的相關課程來充實他們職務上所需要的知識還有傳譯智能在需要通譯服務的部門單位如果我們從國家語言發展法或者是原住民族語言發展法來看其實各部門都有可能會遇到要使用通譯的情況另外在個別領域的部分以司法院來講"},{"start":4089.633,"end":4089.653,"text":"提綱2、3"},{"start":4105.888,"end":4133.816,"text":"因為法院通譯人員他需要具備的專業能力其實包括語言能力傳譯能力還有法律知識等等那以法律知識而言司法院應該足以提供法庭傳譯所需要的法律知識還有教育訓練可是就這個語言能力還有傳譯能力的養成這個似乎是各個機關通譯人員所需要具備的共同能力那這個有賴國內語言翻譯人才的教育培養訓練而且建立這個認證制度"},{"start":4136.997,"end":4156.043,"text":"政府機關要統整建立跨機關通譯制度的意見也有一些國內外相關文獻的研究司法院樂見尊重通譯制度更趨完善提升法庭傳譯品質健全法院通譯制度維護司法人權"},{"start":4160.897,"end":4163.419,"text":"第一位我們邀請的是南洋臺灣姊妹會紅滿之理事長"},{"start":4192.274,"end":4193.335,"text":"我們現在發現在臺灣醫療的部分"},{"start":4215.655,"end":4215.675,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4244.855,"end":4254.517,"text":"在醫療上面的一個通譯沒有完善的一個問題那第二個就是我們發現雖然我們現在說到處都有在培訓通譯然後都有通譯的一些那個人員在然後有很多的那個通譯的那個名額數量但是很多都是隨便就是培訓"},{"start":4268.781,"end":4268.901,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4293.69,"end":4313.786,"text":"那像我們聽到的是說有一些姐妹是被在資料庫裡面有名字有資料但是是被以英文的字母ABCD去排名去排然後去抽所以大部分比較多的是能出去翻譯"},{"start":4314.727,"end":4320.611,"text":"有些姐妹放了很多年都沒有被抽到那這個也是一個我們如何去把這個通譯去幫大家做排通譯的這個系統的一個問題那還有就是我們聽到說有些姐妹啊就是如果常去警察局或者去哪裡通譯然後還可以幫警察"},{"start":4341.723,"end":4341.743,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4367.105,"end":4369.026,"text":"最嚴重的一個問題是全部台灣聽起來很多通譯但是通譯姐妹都被大家洗腦當成說你做這個通譯你來通譯你就是幫助同鄉啊你當志工的因為什麼我為什麼會這樣講因為那個"},{"start":4387.313,"end":4387.333,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4411.507,"end":4411.667,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4433.661,"end":4433.901,"text":"公聽會議委員：完整會議委員：完整會議委員："},{"start":4451.459,"end":4451.599,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4470.217,"end":4470.297,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4485.726,"end":4485.986,"text":"新南向政策"},{"start":4512.591,"end":4512.611,"text":"委員長"},{"start":4527.679,"end":4554.086,"text":"成立了MET專門培訓醫療的人員去服務東南亞來台灣一些有錢人來台灣看病的這種的類似這種那我們相信應該會比較對醫療比較專業那我們在想說是不是這個部分可以結合也是讓我們國內的移民移工可以一起沿用這個通譯"},{"start":4555.226,"end":4558.607,"text":"臺灣外籍工作者發展協會社團法人臺灣司法同意協會創辦人陳韻平發言"},{"start":4593.047,"end":4613.699,"text":"主席還有各位列座的各主管機關台灣司法通譯協會創辦人陳一平第一次發言等一下我發言比較激烈不是針對各位只是針對制度請大家見諒我這邊要跟大家報告的就是我參加這種公聽會已經是第三次"},{"start":4614.775,"end":4629.507,"text":"然後從第一次開始到現在好像也沒有什麼漲進反正都是這樣子而已我不知道我今天是不是來狗吠火車這樣吠一吠回去然後又沒有得到什麼改善但是我對這次的公聽會寄很大的期望"},{"start":4630.268,"end":4654.035,"text":"我們希望能夠得到一些具體的結論首先我們先要證明一下大家都把那個通譯搞成司法通譯了通譯就是通譯,通譯就不是司法通譯請大家不要亂用司法通譯是用在司法訴訟上除了司法訴訟之外,請不要亂用通譯這兩個字你們可以用翻譯,你們可以用口譯但是不要用司法通譯,這是證明"},{"start":4656.355,"end":4675.839,"text":"本次會議有三個議題,我自己把它改成五個question大家可以參與一些資料我這邊是司法通譯,所以我只對司法通譯做發言其他有關整體的社區口譯、整體的面向還是請陳志偉老師來做結論會比較恰當因為數位有專攻"},{"start":4681.434,"end":4706.514,"text":"首先我們論及到司法通譯制度的面向我們那個字面的部分請大家參閱因為我上課我也從來不照那個課綱講大家都是學法律的齁大家看一下那個刑事訴訟法第三條當事人是什麼當事人是檢察官、質素人及被告想請問一下"},{"start":4707.871,"end":4730.888,"text":"檢察官出庭的時候同意被告,自己在同意嗎?沒有吧?不會吧?應該不會吧?就基於刑事訴訟法檢察官、自訴人及被告大家都是當事人,你們有什麼理由自己去建資料庫?你們有什麼資格?你們不配"},{"start":4732.544,"end":4755.512,"text":"這是我要說的而且這違反了兩權公約的基本精神那我看大家也是都如火如荼的在準備了很多有關於通譯的人才資料庫的培訓很抱歉這個在99年的時候我是跟南洋姊妹會還有一堆夥伴不知道殷導有沒有去有齁 對對對"},{"start":4757.406,"end":4784.337,"text":"那時候是我們去監察院檢舉各部門根本沒有準備司法通譯的備用名冊我們當初的用意不是叫各黨委自己準備通譯我們當時的用意是說政府應該準備通譯這也是兩權公約第14條的精神政府應該為這些語言不通的人準備通譯不是叫你們自己去準備通譯而且"},{"start":4785.515,"end":4809.511,"text":"在刑事訴訟法這個精神因為我們現在刑事訴訟法是以改良式當事人進行主義都是以攻擊跟防守武器要公平如果說防守那方武器不公平的話對於語言不通當事人來說他就是遭受到很大的不平等也沒有辦法救濟因為司法通譯永遠是公部門準備的"},{"start":4816.876,"end":4842.712,"text":"說當初建置他們的同意的人才資料庫的這個單位我舉個例子來說,我不是針對警政署我舉個例子來說,中正義分局幾年前有一個司法同意李前光李前光他就很積極的為我們的警察單位幫他問案,甚至問那個筆錄都非常不像樣那這個是經過桃園仲介公會檢舉,後來去"},{"start":4844.588,"end":4870.45,"text":"立檢署去法院才釣出這個袋子才知道說原來他翻譯的時候都亂翻翻到後來結果他出庭被告了出庭才知道說原來他不懂中文我天啊我們警察局怎麼會招不懂中文的人去當同意他看不懂他不是不懂他聽得懂他看不懂那他怎麼做示意那我們問題一大堆那後來後來我才跟這個桃園"},{"start":4871.531,"end":4884.608,"text":"桃園仲介工會裡面的總幹事我們用Google我們沒有你們的政府公器我們用Google查了一下我才知道他是有前科的人那個洗錢的"},{"start":4885.336,"end":4913.668,"text":"我用Google都查得到結果你們自己的自己的行難系統居然查不到我不知道你們那個系統是怎麼建置的所以我當初很後悔我當初去監察院去檢舉的時候我並沒有講得很清楚造成現在各公部門做得如火如荼但是也不是他們該做的我必須跟內政部抱歉內政部所屬的機關也是一樣他們根本就不適合去做司法通譯的培訓那這種東西是不是有"},{"start":4914.769,"end":4925.565,"text":"公正的第三則來做那因為我這邊建議很多齁那我也不再請大家參照素面資料那我要提到法國還有澳洲"},{"start":4926.755,"end":4949.591,"text":"就是我們會議上面有個NATI嘛NATI它只是一個認證機構而已它是NGO組織那它是第三方的它是一個NGO組織那法國還有加拿大其實他們都是NGO組織在做那為什麼我知道這些這些單位他們在做這些因為他們在裡面運作的人甚至裡面的理事長都是我們台灣人"},{"start":4950.7,"end":4975.415,"text":"那他們有來上我的課的時候我才問他們他們的制度到底是怎麼做的原來各國都是在NGO做那我們公部門到底要做什麼公部門就使用啊公部門就做使用為什麼因為我們公部門第一個沒能力第二個沒能力第三個不專業我們到底會什麼我們什麼都不會我們有錢而已啊有錢"},{"start":4976.992,"end":4987.223,"text":"那所以我這邊有提出一些建議就是說我們可不可以仿照這個國外的制度就是把像澳洲澳洲也不錯他把"},{"start":4988.408,"end":5009.304,"text":"所有需要通譯包括社區口譯、醫療口譯還有所謂的司法通譯他們全部都給他撥成一種預算就是需要通譯的就是一種預算那全國是統一價嘛不過這個也不好啦統一價嘛也怪怪的他們有需求通譯的人在單位他們是叫"},{"start":5010.305,"end":5032.078,"text":"叫通譯去叫通譯去以後呢然後他們的費用給付是統一跟一個單位去領然後他們是統一的價碼然後法國也是這樣不過法國這個國家是很佛系的國家他們無為而治他們根本沒有司法通譯制度不過說沒有其實他們做的比我們還多"},{"start":5035.281,"end":5056.84,"text":"這個在那個資料裡面有大家自己參閱所以我希望說這邊可以最後能夠做成決議還是因為我們是一個依法行政的國家那如果沒有立法通過我相信在座的各位在座的官員他們也不會去動那也沒有依法的話多做多錯"},{"start":5058.001,"end":5078.68,"text":"所以我們希望立法通過有關多元文化語言需求的部分應該統籌事權立法通過由一個單位去主辦這個單位一定不是執法機關我們可以去文化部因為文化部我查過他有一個多元文化什麼什麼的然後我們還有另外一個好像那個"},{"start":5081.209,"end":5108.822,"text":"法輔他也是一個蠻公正的單位比如說NGO他也是比較公正的單位只要他不是執法機關他就沒有《刑事訴訟法》第三條的疑慮跟適用那我這邊很希望就是說我們可以立法通過就是有只要是通譯或是司法通譯社區口譯、醫療口譯只要是國家統一便預算到一個單位去然後有一個單位去主管不在於有執法機關他去主管這件事沒人力、沒專業然後"},{"start":5111.383,"end":5137.912,"text":"東西雖然有 器材雖然有但是這個應該要交給更專業的專業的事情還是交給專業的人去做以免我們這個各公部門像我的老東家內政部移民署他們做這種司法通譯那根本就不是他們要做的事情每個人做到如火如荼然後被罵得要死然後做了又做不好 底下又在罵罵又來這邊質詢質詢又說我們做得很好 底下又繼續罵這個不好啦 就是"},{"start":5139.814,"end":5142.501,"text":"他們不是專業單位請不要讓他們再坐下去了好謝謝"},{"start":5144.998,"end":5169.879,"text":"好 謝謝我們的創辦人說實在的就像陳創辦人所說的其實我們的目標也希望成立一個專責的一個翻譯或同意的一個機構像這個澳洲的NATINATI是一直我覺得說我們國內可以去參考的一個機構好 那接下來呢我們邀請的是台灣外籍工作者發展協會徐瑞熙理事長"},{"start":5173.547,"end":5179.266,"text":"委員 各位朋友 各位夥伴大家好"},{"start":5180.499,"end":5204.35,"text":"因為剛才已經有陳允平已經先拋風過了我就針對問題就好了我想請教一下112年的這個翻譯制度的這個精進計畫這是10月份才提出來的請問他的經費多少他大概包括哪幾個面向因為坦白講我們都不曉得有這樣子的一個計畫"},{"start":5205.39,"end":5223.403,"text":"所以我們來參與這個公聽會的時候有些事情我們沒有辦法針對現行的制度跟未來的計畫如何的來做一個接軌跟改善來提出一些具體的建議所以我希望後面可以補是不是委員可以補這個資料或者是說後面再補給我們也可以"},{"start":5224.166,"end":5248.274,"text":"這部分的話 待會就會請行政單位來回答好不好好 OK好 謝謝那我想我從那個1999從2000年就開始做東南亞語的這個翻譯然後呢我也看到所以我知道大概1955什麼時候推出然後我們的這個移民署什麼時候開始來建立這個人才資料庫可是我真的必須要講我覺得今天這個計畫大家一直都在講雙語雙語資料庫"},{"start":5251.585,"end":5279.699,"text":"這件事情今天如果這個會議是在一年前開我個人會覺得差不多但在今天今年從去年年底到今年大家知道網路上最火紅的字是什麼AIAI人工智慧可以做那麼多的事情然後我們現在在談這個雙語的資料庫的時候我們還要慢慢的去建置一個一個一個的雙語各位"},{"start":5280.339,"end":5280.459,"text":"雙語資料庫雙語資料庫"},{"start":5306.779,"end":5332.351,"text":"不是只是雙語對照的問題而已你知道就是從前我們在解釋我們在解釋這個一些移工的法令所用的一些詞彙包含我們1955做這麼多年他們的FAQ有非常有非常好的這個FAQ各式各樣的回憶的就是回復的一個資料但為什麼他的問題沒有辦法有效去解決移工的一個問題"},{"start":5333.331,"end":5357.251,"text":"其實我覺得那裡面有蠻多的包含就是剛剛有提到一個狀況就是說就算你名詞都對了那這個中文的跟這個印尼文的名詞都對了問題是通譯搞不清楚這個是什麼意義啊譬如我們最近在翻譯一個東西他說要就是要信託採用信託結果我一問越南的同事"},{"start":5358.243,"end":5385.86,"text":"越南沒有信託然後我們要怎麼查呢當然你知道我們在查這些字就是有一些國家沒有這些制度那我們要查這些怎麼辦呢於是我們就用了我們就用了大家通用的方式翻譯把這個英文找出來把中文的英文找出來然後我們再去我們再去做一個對照的一個一個翻譯但是越南就是沒有啊那我要怎麼掰這個東西呢好這個東西就是也是一個問題制度上的落差"},{"start":5387.881,"end":5417.271,"text":"所以我們還在講到的這個雙語資料庫我結論一下我請各位回去檢視一下這一個精進計畫在雙語資料庫的建構的過程當中不要花那麼多的人力然後在做這些事情我們要做一個雙語對照甚至於是一個文化差異的一個解釋制度差異的一個解釋讓我們的通譯一查就知道"},{"start":5417.811,"end":5430.816,"text":"不要沒有資料庫然後搞一些那個這個只是我們台灣跟印尼語的這個翻譯的這個東西然後你要叫這個通譯各自理解各自解讀這個法令規定是什麼這個制度的細節是什麼我覺得這個都是不對的"},{"start":5434.758,"end":5455.111,"text":"所以雙語資料庫的建構麻煩各位重新回去能夠我們採用新的這個AI的一個方式我們用更精簡人力更智慧的提供一個一致性的不會有人為哪一個人今天這個理解不夠或者是怎麼樣而造成的這個落差所造成的一些問題"},{"start":5456.932,"end":5475.906,"text":"而且你知道嗎?雙語資料庫還有一個什麼問題呢?大家在做這個雙語資料庫的時候你知道有多少好幾年前台灣發生一個非常震驚國際的一個移工的一個事件那就是在屏東東港的Separando這個案子"},{"start":5478.207,"end":5506.434,"text":"請問有通譯嗎有問題是移工講的是他們印尼的土話是他們印尼的一個地方的local的一個語言那請問這個通譯他難道沒有資格嗎他有經驗他有資格問題是他不懂他那個國家的他不懂他那個地方的土話於是造成了翻譯上極大的一個落差導致的一個導致後來整個震驚國際的一個冤案"},{"start":5507.875,"end":5507.895,"text":"雙語資料庫"},{"start":5528.695,"end":5553.31,"text":"然後翻譯一個那還有一個叫做什麼叫做外部的審查就是審稿者但你知道嗎有一些專業的名詞這個人這個翻譯這樣用然後那個審稿的老師這樣用那我們到底這個當中的一些落差你知道我們在這個翻譯的過程當中這些單位通常要求我們這兩個人是"},{"start":5555.352,"end":5568.048,"text":"這兩個角色是對立的可是事實上有一些名詞他們雙方可能都會因為有一些文化或專業的落差所以他們其實是必須要一起討論的討論出一個合適的一個翻譯的一個方式一個用詞出來"},{"start":5572.212,"end":5589.517,"text":"這是一個問題所以現在是現行政府在採用這個翻譯制度上面它的一個可能需要去改善的一個地方就怎麼樣的把翻譯人員跟這個審稿人員我們來做一個有一些協力合作的一個方式"},{"start":5591.089,"end":5616.779,"text":"找出一些合適的翻譯什麼叫做合適的翻譯呢各位我們最近翻譯了一個非常專業的東西裡面通通都是講到了一大堆的這個化學啊什麼的但是你知道嗎我們要給看的是要看這些資料的人是工人可是工人看不懂所以我們到底要給誰翻譯我們的雙語資料庫要給誰知道要給誰認知我覺得這個也是我們在建構過程當中的一個問題"},{"start":5617.799,"end":5630.984,"text":"好 那我想我就講到這個地方協會目前我們也有在做一個這樣子的一個現在在應用一個在跟一個大學在合作一個APP然後我們再過一段時間我們會公佈出來這個制度 這個即時翻譯的這個APP"},{"start":5635.625,"end":5663.534,"text":"並沒有用到就是並沒有cover那麼多的不同領域的智慧但是我們希望各位就是說可以重新的思考一下這個制度上面我們要的其實這個制度最重要的是我們要給翻譯人員保障翻譯人員同理心給翻譯人員告訴他什麼叫做一個專業的一個通譯的人員我覺得這個才是最重要的而不是再搞一個搞一頭拉股的人馬然後搞一頭拉股的經費再搞這個鎖"},{"start":5664.454,"end":5666.946,"text":"AI就可以很快搞定的一個雙語資料庫 謝謝各位"},{"start":5669.226,"end":5669.646,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5700.092,"end":5725.269,"text":"另外一位是張珍老師她是發表新住民同意多次與會資料庫之研究的主持人也是我國新住民同意人員培訓跟機制發展與澳洲國家及同意認證制度那體會接見之研究的共同主持人這份研究我又看了很多次"},{"start":5725.749,"end":5725.97,"text":"李凱莉主任"},{"start":5743.908,"end":5763.898,"text":"主席然後與會的各位機關代表和我們的專家學者大家早安那移住者服務中心主要是在服務來台短期那不以婚姻為目的的外國人但是同步在這個工作的過程當中我們還是會接觸到許多的新住民那其實列新基金會比較特別是我們本身就有聘通譯那同時因為通譯的工作量大"},{"start":5768.72,"end":5769.46,"text":"社區統一社區統一不同於會議統一社區統一這個部分我們如何能夠確保"},{"start":5796.915,"end":5817.81,"text":"通譯專業人才培育還有通譯人才職涯發展以及科技輔助通譯的這個四個面向來跟大家做一個討論及具體建議那第一個就是我們如何確保通譯的品質它的忠實度完整性和可信賴度事實上剛如我所說現在我們各個單位以剛剛勞動部的報告裡面其實我們有好幾個單位都有聘全職通譯但是在裡面全職通譯它其實還有"},{"start":5823.874,"end":5828.697,"text":"他本身業務部門的相關工作有時候我們會聘請以案來僱用這個特約通譯在這些特約通譯裡面有兩種一種是他以通譯為專業通譯為業所以他會接各種的案他的專業就是通譯另外一種他是兼職通譯他有各種的不同的工作但有案就接沒有案他就做他的工作"},{"start":5850.251,"end":5850.271,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5872.603,"end":5890.095,"text":"中文的人我真的沒有辦法判斷他語言的真實度他的確實度甚至我也沒有辦法了解他有沒有前科因為其實有些通譯其實他是不會留下前科他在等人發現事情的時候他就已經走了其實也是有的"},{"start":5891.693,"end":5906.88,"text":"除非你現場另外一個人去確認他翻譯的可信度那所以我覺得不管是我們或者是各個機關當然我相信很多人都是如果是聘用科約通譯的時候很多時候都是以我們跟這個人的這個合作經驗"},{"start":5909.841,"end":5935.186,"text":"那當然幾乎所有的同意他都是有上過相關的訓練他也有資格但是以我們跟他的合作經驗來做判斷那這個合作經驗和偏好其實他是不是中立的、客觀的、絕對的其實是一個很大的問號因為使用者他有他的期待因為我剛剛講社區同意跟會議同意不一樣社區同意他要跟使用服務的兩端"},{"start":5936.306,"end":5960.148,"text":"他要非常的靠近所以任何一端對他的期待他都感受得到他今天要選擇他要靠近那個付錢給他的那一端還是他要靠近那個可以同樣使用母語那一端還是他有他的目的他的目的是什麼他如果是仲介的同意他有他的目的等等的所以這些東西我們如何回到一個核心點"},{"start":5961.329,"end":5971.553,"text":"政府作為一個如果通譯他是一個重要的而且我們的移住者人數一定是越來越多的這一個社會現實與人口結構的狀況下我們更應該訂立一個一套完整的培育和認證機制從訓練內容評量方式而且能夠讓他持續取得在職訓練時數的能夠讓使用者在兩端都能夠信任口譯服務提供者這還是很核心的地方"},{"start":5988.839,"end":6010.117,"text":"以訓練的內容來看,我們有訪問我們的資深全職以通譯為專業的通譯員他們有跟我們表示目前的訓練,各方都開了各種不同的訓練,其實很多員沒有統一的架構而且內容很高,其實他們對他們來說有時候只是拿一個資格,我放進去人才庫的資格或是來做複習"},{"start":6012.759,"end":6012.979,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6036.171,"end":6036.231,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":6056.824,"end":6079.149,"text":"為什麼我看前面的資料我翻譯的我理解的文字跟前面那個通譯理解的文字不一樣到底是誰的問題但是那一個案子可能就會影響當事人的權益但是我要講的是這個是非常有反思而且誠實的通譯才會表達的其實很多的通譯他就是硬翻我們也曾經發現奇怪完全"},{"start":6080.109,"end":6080.669,"text":"第二點 通譯人才如何永續 通譯機制如何永續"},{"start":6109.722,"end":6136.07,"text":"以目前的狀況我們看到其實大部分的通譯人才都是新住民但是在這當中真正以通譯為職業的人比例又很少當然我們會看有很多通譯像歐美語系因為它有比較多會議口譯的機會所以它的費用或者是一些不同的工作類型比較多但東南語系它就比較多是社區的這個口譯那以這樣在東南語系裡面它又會分不同的語種它的機會度又不同"},{"start":6139.511,"end":6147.438,"text":"那這些人才不斷地在同樣做同樣的事情然後分散在各地我們無法看到永續性的發展"},{"start":6148.899,"end":6148.919,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6170.131,"end":6170.291,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6188.57,"end":6211.299,"text":"包括我們現在所有不同進入台灣的移住管道我們都需要重新去思考用一個完整的制度來因應這個問題然後加強我們的服務那另外一個我覺得很重要就是要加強翻譯使用者對於翻譯的認識當然翻譯使用者就是我們聘用翻譯我們都有我們的期待但是我們要知道翻譯本身它的中立性它的客觀性"},{"start":6213.12,"end":6214.041,"text":"實用科技作為輔助工具"},{"start":6235.939,"end":6239.102,"text":"謝謝李凱莉主任接下來我們邀請的是桃園市群眾服務協會移工政策處汪英達主任"},{"start":6265.472,"end":6265.652,"text":"主席"},{"start":6290.476,"end":6318.174,"text":"是不太夠的而且對於不同來源國他的態度不太一樣舉例來講我覺得比較離譜的是對菲律賓我很多年前有講過到現在這個狀況沒有改善簡單而言之就是政府認為菲律賓是英語系國家講英語的人就夠了可是其實如果真的跟菲律賓移工溝通過的話就會發現很多的菲律賓移工他的英文其實不太好的他可能聽不懂講不出來有的甚至連理解都有困難"},{"start":6318.914,"end":6318.934,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6353.1,"end":6365.317,"text":"全台灣只有少數的兩三個縣市的勞工局有Tagalog的通譯呢?這是非常嚴重的事情真的不能夠再以英文來代替菲律賓語了這是完全不行的"},{"start":6366.941,"end":6390.159,"text":"法院跟立檢署的通譯都參差不齊而且有很嚴重的問題舉例而言我自己就曾經目睹過有一個人口發現被害人在現場有一個室友菲律賓與同意可是這個同意他因為後面好像有要去上課他就不斷的催促他越來越的不耐煩他就催這個當事人用非常不耐煩的語氣他說你快點啊你不要講你要講重點啊"},{"start":6391.66,"end":6412.308,"text":"這是很糟糕的事情這個當事人年紀比較大他不太會直接對話他就會繞一大圈可是我們的同意沒有辦法好好的跟他做傳譯卻反而用這種壓力來壓他他比檢察官還要兇啊我非常非常清楚的理解檢察官還很耐心的聽可是這個同意就非常的兇"},{"start":6413.728,"end":6437.713,"text":"後來就跟檢察官說這個東西不能用了那再來就是常常不管是法院、地檢署還是警察局所謂的這個資料庫我們剛剛好幾位嫌疑人都講過了其實都舊了常常找不到而且有時候就是找個仲介那仲介我不是說絕對不行可是仲介要怎麼處理這是一個很嚴重的問題仲介身份常常有利益問題他自己身為仲介常常就不知不覺的"},{"start":6438.493,"end":6439.354,"text":"民視不重要嗎?當然不是啊!"},{"start":6462.737,"end":6491.516,"text":"移工遇到的很多的欠薪的問題如果勞工局沒有辦法處理的話他們接下來就是民事案件那憑什麼他是民事案件就不給他同意呢我們每一個要告民事的當事人幾乎都要由我們來幫他們翻譯這也是蠻糟糕的事情這其實也不符合兩公寓的精神再來剛剛也好幾位講到了醫院跟這個對這個翻譯的部分我特別要講到了我們勞動部跟印度這剛剛正在簽MOU"},{"start":6492.797,"end":6508.778,"text":"之前也常常聽到不同的國家不同新的國家來我希望我們的政府要好好的思考你們到底有沒有做好準備來引進新的來臨國我們連現有的這些國家都沒有提供足夠的翻譯的服務你就要開心的"},{"start":6510.289,"end":6527.147,"text":"我這邊不是站在昨天那個大遊行的立場我跟他們立場完全不一樣可是我認為我們政府要來引進新的移工就必須要有清楚的移工的翻譯的服務絕對不能用英文來代替不要說印度人跟菲律賓一樣都會講英文都是英語系國家對不起這是胡說八道"},{"start":6530.87,"end":6533.051,"text":"醫院與心理諮詢完全沒有法定同意"},{"start":6553.652,"end":6563.962,"text":"怎麼可以這樣子呢我們以前就有學者已經研究過了他長期跟這個新住民的翻譯對不起我關掉新住民翻譯他就發現一個很嚴重的問題就是"},{"start":6566.451,"end":6590.719,"text":"就是醫院醫生或者是護理師常常只要有台灣人就會以他對話為主他根本不去聽當事人的話這個是非常離譜的事情病痛只有當事人自己最清楚跟他去的是什麼人這個醫療實施者不管是醫師還是護理師根本不知道他們怎麼樣關係你根本不知道這個台灣人是不是懂他的狀況不僅台灣人有時候仲介有時候是外國人"},{"start":6591.539,"end":6604.597,"text":"他與他們兩個語言是不是通你根本就不知道我就在醫院曾經看到過根本不同國籍的一個仲介帶一個移工去好像是一個印尼仲介帶一個越南移工他去用國語跟他講話"},{"start":6606.422,"end":6607.503,"text":"臺灣醫院竟然完全沒有同意"},{"start":6630.194,"end":6654.822,"text":"我們很多的移工其實有受到肢體暴力有受到性暴力或者是可能因為工作上的壓力就會有心理上的問題可是我們曾經有考量過移工或者新住民他在有困難的時候提供心理智商的通譯嗎完全沒有完全沒有我們曾經跟新北市勞工局有提供這樣的計畫他們有做了可是做了發現其實沒有就業啊這出現另外一個嚴重的問題了"},{"start":6655.842,"end":6656.022,"text":"政府應提供"},{"start":6678.653,"end":6678.673,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6700.681,"end":6722.015,"text":"然後我覺得至少這幾個部門 勞工局 醫院跟警察局他都應該共同公共翻譯的一個服務網由政府來提供然後剛剛Peter有講過 我可能理解錯誤我是NGO也沒有關係 就是要模仿國外的有效制度來成立這個相關單位 來正好運作"},{"start":6725.237,"end":6727.88,"text":"民間機構合作提高通譯品質退場機制問題必須要讓塑形不良或專業不足的有曾經被投訴過的通譯或翻譯"},{"start":6742.975,"end":6757.35,"text":"有被退場的機制但是他們可以申訴我覺得這要好好的處理像剛剛講的這些問題可能都沒有我剛剛講的這些問題剛剛好幾位前面講到的翻譯上的不專業的問題其實都需要有退場機制的好 那我就講這邊 謝謝"},{"start":6760.607,"end":6763.931,"text":"社團法人新住民家庭成長協會科技林秘書長"},{"start":6788.854,"end":6789.074,"text":"柯雨玲議員"},{"start":6804.529,"end":6809.193,"text":"專家學者有提到AI那在AI的這個部分我曾經去問了一個專門在訓練AI資料庫的AI的專家我說那我們的通譯人員在不久的將來即將失業嗎然後他給我的回答是全世界還有好一段的路要走"},{"start":6825.967,"end":6833.492,"text":"好所以目前的AI的資料庫好像還不能應用在我們這樣子文字的翻譯都還更何況需要再修正更何況是面對面的口譯那更是有一大段的路要走那個是一個專門在培訓AI在訓練AI的專業人員給我的回應"},{"start":6853.544,"end":6854.384,"text":"主席"},{"start":6874.371,"end":6899.683,"text":"翻譯的內容會牽涉不只語言的能力還牽涉到專業的知識還有各種的專有名詞所以我會覺得不同的專有名詞上面對於通譯人員的培訓應該要再加強另外特別是在待遇上不應該有齊頭式的平等應該依照不同的"},{"start":6901.116,"end":6908.199,"text":"翻譯內容的難易度以及翻譯的風險我覺得可能很多人沒有去考慮到風險我覺得風險必須考量進去那還有同意人員本身的能力要有所區別那在這裡我也"},{"start":6919.366,"end":6925.708,"text":"看到那個行政院有規劃一個通譯制度的草案裡面會提升提高這個通譯費用那不知道那個何時會頒布要頒布實施了嗎那裡面會不會有簡單的能力的分級那我覺得這個如果還沒頒布是不是可以再多加思考的"},{"start":6945.513,"end":6970.96,"text":"另外就是為了要提升服務的品質所以在是不是通譯這個職門上面可以比照我們國家其實有其他職業類種的證照的制度那需要一段的時間就再教育他那個職業的證照他才可以繼續用"},{"start":6973.101,"end":7000.372,"text":"那另外就是現在啦大部分通譯人員運用的都是公部門那我看到大部分的公部門都把通譯人員都視為是不是僱傭要嘛就是委任關係要嘛就是承攬的關係那因為不是僱傭關係所以在通譯人員的保險勞保上面我聽到蠻多的通譯人員對這一點"},{"start":7002.273,"end":7002.653,"text":"董事長"},{"start":7021.701,"end":7021.921,"text":"提綱的第二點"},{"start":7047.967,"end":7047.987,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7074.04,"end":7078.364,"text":"統一一個固定的制度或是統一一個固定的契約可能很有難度那倒是如果要統整倒是可以把這個通譯的培訓或是機制可以設想為一個是共同共用的一個是各部門各部會有各部會專門的就是把"},{"start":7102.683,"end":7103.163,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7127.265,"end":7127.485,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7150.151,"end":7150.571,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7177.347,"end":7194.563,"text":"他翻譯成越南文的能力是多少是怎樣然後他把中文翻譯成越南文的能力是怎麼樣所以我還蠻建議是應該要有中文的平和華語文的平和機制"},{"start":7198.98,"end":7220.88,"text":"還有有必要成立專責的機構嗎那我就不知道這個專責的機構是比較要政府部門還是民間那如果有一些翻譯上面牽涉到公權力的行使的話那如果委由民間那那個民間的"},{"start":7223.903,"end":7243.265,"text":"公權力公信度如何我覺得這個都是要審慎考量的那另外剛有幾位專家也提到了心理健康的方面我們的確也碰到處理過一些新住民或外籍人士他在台灣他沒有辦法做"},{"start":7243.906,"end":7244.226,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7269.873,"end":7278.458,"text":"提供更多人才來充實臺灣與世界各地交流的能力以上 謝謝好 謝謝柯玉琳秘書長寶貴的意見有些問題待會再請行政單位回答接下來我們邀請的是臺大社會系研究助理劉清平我要請同學嗎 你還在選嗎"},{"start":7298.97,"end":7317.105,"text":"委員好,我目前是任職於台大社會系的專業研究助理那同時我其實也還在學是就讀於台大國家發展研究所的碩士生那今天呢我是一個也是同時是一個台越新二代的一個角度來分享我在這個議題上的看見"},{"start":7319.106,"end":7336.297,"text":"其實過去這幾年我與一群新住民第二代的朋友擴集台灣各地我們其實陸續有在發起一些公共投書像是新二代留聲機或是現在在籌組中的移民青年倡議陣線在這個過程中其實我們也觀察到不管各部會的一個翻譯或是說通譯的這個現況我們都"},{"start":7346.344,"end":7346.825,"text":"立法院第11會議"},{"start":7363.499,"end":7364,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會議"},{"start":7391.221,"end":7412.312,"text":"我剛剛看了一些書面的資料看到警政署有提到說通譯的人員是很充足很飽和的非常的強調就是人員充足的這個面向那也有提到說什麼社會案件然後其實通譯的需求是夠的也有在培訓等等的但是我看到一個很有趣的一點"},{"start":7414.093,"end":7428.449,"text":"法務部提供了一個資料在第三頁的地方有提到一個特約通譯傳譯服務情形反應表我其實是在這個資料第一次看到所以剛剛二補一下去查詢了一下那發現那個填表的一個"},{"start":7429.75,"end":7429.77,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7453.086,"end":7453.126,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":7468.522,"end":7472.185,"text":"表的設計是能夠更好協助警方或檢察官問案辦案還是能夠更中立地扮演通譯需求者在法律權益上的被告知"},{"start":7490,"end":7490.32,"text":"通譯人才培訓"},{"start":7511.295,"end":7511.395,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7530.638,"end":7530.938,"text":"新住民其實也是非常需要的"},{"start":7555.678,"end":7582.085,"text":"那尤其前陣子7月的時候有發生一個社會案件就是張化的蒲炎香在基層員警在執法的過程中誤把一個移民二代就是當成義工然後就是有一些誤會跟污辱的事件那在這個過程中我們就有看到說其實我們很關心的是在這個兒少受傷的事件當中他作為一個單親就是新住民的家庭他的母親在協助他"},{"start":7582.705,"end":7583.506,"text":"通譯需求者不止有移工"},{"start":7598.129,"end":7598.289,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7629.671,"end":7630.271,"text":"中年老年階段生命歷程"},{"start":7644.747,"end":7644.907,"text":"新住民權益保障"},{"start":7667.432,"end":7667.632,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7696.46,"end":7696.48,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7714.309,"end":7714.489,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7732.851,"end":7732.871,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7757.356,"end":7757.496,"text":"政策推動"},{"start":7772.984,"end":7773.004,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7789.012,"end":7810.67,"text":"我會希望提這個點就是代表還有一個部分就是其實現在現有很多APP或是什麼通譯人才名冊但是這個東西要如何發揮它的觸及率讓需要的使用者可以進一步主動的被告知或主動的去觸及用他們的母語就可以搜尋到相關的資源我想是非常重要的"},{"start":7811.351,"end":7811.631,"text":"副教授陳子維"},{"start":7843.568,"end":7863.911,"text":"主席還有各位與會行政機關的代表大家早安那我最後一個講是因為我想前面幾位專家都比我更專業就把大部分的時間讓給他們如果我等一下我講快一點不到8分鐘結束的話就把時間留給行政機關來回答我想這個我們"},{"start":7865.393,"end":7891.159,"text":"今天我們在場的人大概除了主席之外我們大概分成幾類今天來首先報告的政府機關應該在通譯這點上事情上面屬於的是使用者今天來參加的民間的專家們應該是大部分的服務的提供團體這個群體的提供者那我們作為一個學校"},{"start":7893.191,"end":7920.701,"text":"我算是站在中間吧所以會採取一個比較我希望等一下我的報告採取一個比較整體宏觀的角度細節我就不太說了雖然我自己也是具有高院特約同意的身份世大翻譯所也從十幾二十年前就開始參與這些相關的工作但是我們作為一個學術機關我覺得跟在場的各位專家比起來我們應該採取一個比較站在中間的立場一個宏觀的態度來看這件事情"},{"start":7922.281,"end":7930.504,"text":"如果我們考量全世界的通譯制度其實我很有信心的跟大家報告其實台灣跟外國比起來我們一點都不差我們從最以前大家紛紛擾擾剛剛陳創辦人說到今天去檢舉到現在也不過十幾年的時間"},{"start":7941.314,"end":7968.416,"text":"今天我們能夠有這樣的進展不是說我們自己誇耀自己而是我們看全世界其他國家的發展台灣在這麼短的期間內可以走這麼遠我覺得自己覺得是一件很了不起的事情要非常感謝在今天與會的所有單位共同的努力至少我們的目標非常清楚我也蠻贊成委員剛剛開幕的時候所講的我們一定要持續的精進所以秉著"},{"start":7969.617,"end":7989.666,"text":"只有更好沒有最好這個精神我來提一個簡單的建議就講一件事情就是講質的變化為什麼會這麼說呢因為剛才在行政機關的各位長官的發言裡面從最前面的法務部的蔡市長開始還有這個李市長也講到了剛才黃助長也講到"},{"start":7991.827,"end":8019.841,"text":"還有這個勞動部黃專辦委員也有講到還有司法院的羅專辦委員都有講到通譯現在人力已經逐漸的充沛都還算是可以用到了所以我覺得我們展望未來我們不要陷入外國的陷阱他們也是一開始培訓很多人到最後那個制度就不行了那個制度最不行的原因大概有兩個第一個就是政府沒有錢"},{"start":8021.257,"end":8029.833,"text":"美國英國都遇到這樣的問題最後政府的最後走了最差的路就是把通譯服務全部外包給一個翻譯社最後就"},{"start":8033.072,"end":8053.324,"text":"最後說6月份我們的經費只剩20萬了用完了就沒有了那個通譯服務就決定就結束了所以我認為剛剛有這個討論提綱裡面政府是不是要設立專責機構專責機構可以設立但是請大家在修訂在制定這個制度的時候一定要考慮裁員這個問題"},{"start":8055.592,"end":8077.912,"text":"用編列預算來做是不是一個很好的方式不知道還是要考慮一個能夠裁員自己自主的永續的單位大家在設計制度的時候要討論一下那麼我就繼續從這個質變這個議題跟大家簡單的說明我覺得我的議題是大家都說了量已經差不多了"},{"start":8078.473,"end":8078.533,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8098.111,"end":8112.619,"text":"雖然有好幾千位編制內的翻譯但是我每一次去不同的地方上課我都會問請問各位去年一年真正去從事過幾次翻譯最後的每一次都是呈現兩極化的現象"},{"start":8115.712,"end":8125.618,"text":"應該不是兩極化應該是非常的統計上是非常左偏的現象大部分的人都是服務一年我去上課15個小時20個小時我去服務三次"},{"start":8129.329,"end":8147.385,"text":"但是就會有3個人4個人服務25次以上這代表什麼意思也就是我們花了很多力氣上了很多課培訓的這100個通譯裡面有70個人80個人是一個一年只有去兩次只有去三次"},{"start":8148.854,"end":8168.901,"text":"也就是說大部分的服務都集中在少數人的身上但是我們不可以怪罪是制度不合理這是因為使用者本來就是這樣因為學理上告訴我們尋找可以信賴的通譯這件事情他的搜尋成本很高"},{"start":8169.821,"end":8195.69,"text":"你找到一個好用的通譯大部分的使用者不管是檢察官不管是法官不管是醫生不管是移民署的官員一旦有一個好的通譯大概就我就這一個就好了我下一次繼續他就好了任何的我們一般老百姓一般消費者也是這樣我買習慣用一個東西我就不要再花時間去找我找一個不認識的人下一次我翻的好翻不好我不知道我要重新試一個很麻煩"},{"start":8196.9,"end":8211.146,"text":"所以最後就造成喜歡的人永遠都是那一群人我相信每一位書記官每一位警官每一位檢察官每一個人手機裡都有一個好用通譯的那一群組"},{"start":8212.605,"end":8239.331,"text":"我找來找去就是找這些人所以我覺得找這個剛剛理事長有說叫不到是因為姓名排在後面的確有可能但是有另外一個可能性是因為你不在那個警官你不在這位檢察官你不在這位說機關的line群組裡面我覺得這是我們將來我們的制度再往前的時候要注意的一件事情那我覺得前提是這種制度這種方式是一定會這樣的"},{"start":8240.879,"end":8240.999,"text":"還有一分鐘對不對"},{"start":8269.66,"end":8288.397,"text":"使用這個追蹤之後把這些使這個服務量比較大比較穩定的這些通譯篩選下來讓這些人作為通譯服務的核心這有什麼好處我們就可以讓他前面幾位專家有講到生活穩定"},{"start":8289.238,"end":8314.099,"text":"他不用每天我不知道我明天下個禮拜有沒有買菜錢我很穩定我一個月都會有固定大概是這個量的案子讓我做我就可以很專心的來做這件事情同時使用機關就有更光明光緬堂皇的要求你來上課你要訓練要評估這樣一下來才會有一個良性的循環"},{"start":8315.191,"end":8315.691,"text":"以上報告謝謝"},{"start":8345.427,"end":8367.58,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝我們陳教授我剛剛有聽到陳教授在說有些通譯真的是大家都在搶司法的醫療了都在找同一個人我正想說我們一個司法素養的養成可能要三四年四五年然後醫療的秩序的養成可能也要三四年四五年可是我們一個可能通譯它各種"},{"start":8369.147,"end":8395.148,"text":"各種條件各種知識他都有就當作非常精彩的有這樣子的一個很難對不對其實總而來講還是專業度還是沒有辦法到達那個程度我們所有的專家學者的發言都已經結束了最後我們要請今天列席的議會機關代表來做一些回應"},{"start":8396.209,"end":8409.975,"text":"好那剛剛我們從一開始了我找一下資料剛剛我們有第一位第一位是離開第一位是等一下我看一下"},{"start":8413.106,"end":8437.697,"text":"紅滿之旅市長有提到這個醫療的這個培訓然後說其實醫療有些培訓非常的隨便我也提到紅滿之旅市長有提到那資料庫裡面如果名字ABC你的字母是在前面的那可能就會比較常被使用那在後面呢你再有專業可能都很難被抽用到這個部分"},{"start":8438.217,"end":8438.497,"text":"衝浪不易衛福部"},{"start":8464.087,"end":8466.388,"text":"主席 剛剛還有各位參與通譯制度非常關心的來賓有提到針對醫療的部分 必須要先講我們剛才一開始已經說明其實因為醫療它的專業性 所以相對培育的資源相對會"},{"start":8483.536,"end":8483.556,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8502.09,"end":8502.11,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8517.913,"end":8517.933,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8543.357,"end":8558.95,"text":"專業上面他已經具備但只是說他是外語的部分去做處理所以目前來講我們才會在我們的一些國際療法部分我們會去推動因為那個第一個是大概剛才講到說是有一些比較在資歷上面比較相對優勢的一些外國人會來台灣做醫療服務那我們會來去推動這個外語能力的培訓那這樣子的外語培訓其實剛有講到說如果是培育我們自己院內的因為"},{"start":8569.94,"end":8570.901,"text":"中階或外籍看護"},{"start":8600.196,"end":8624.896,"text":"這不是我們會優先使用的一個資源但是因為有時候疾病的處理它其實不能拖那告知統一這邊又是法律上規定它必須為之的一個規定那因此它就必須要去做處理所以這個部分雖然我不當不過就是在資源上面比較少的情況下所以非常誠實的跟各位報告有沒有使用到仲介或者是外籍看護我們會我們也是會有這種情形"},{"start":8625.236,"end":8625.336,"text":"委員會發言委員會"},{"start":8647.27,"end":8647.53,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8670.294,"end":8671.956,"text":"第3個長照部分目前來講這一塊因為我剛才問了一下我們長照司長官不過因為他們說目前來講這一塊可能他們資源還要再找一下"},{"start":8685.091,"end":8685.111,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8702.427,"end":8702.447,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8720.678,"end":8720.698,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8737.339,"end":8764.937,"text":"好 謝謝我們李念慈檢任記者剛剛有關於那個謙平同學所提到的這個長照的部分我想謙平的意思就是說希望就是在長照這個政策可以一些多國語言的這個傳達對不對你的意思是這樣子就希望說比如說長照我們可能有一些政策我們希望有多國語言我想謙平對長照的部分的要求是這樣子"},{"start":8766.398,"end":8769.221,"text":"衛福部通譯培訓下放到地方政府各縣市政府各場各地不管是培訓的時間也好 內容也好其實都是不一的"},{"start":8782.132,"end":8802.605,"text":"這部分很需要大家是來做一個檢討好那再來的話可能就需要麻煩司法院來回覆了因為陳允平創辦人對司法院這個部分其實好像有還蠻多的意見對這個我們陳允平創辦人這個部分司法院是不是要做一個回覆有提到所謂的兩公務的這個問題"},{"start":8804.326,"end":8804.647,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8825.886,"end":8848.816,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家好剛剛各位學者專家所提到有關於司法院的部分我這邊做一個回覆基本上司法院在訂定這個通譯的相關的制度的時候我們有考慮到使用者也有考慮到傳譯的這個部分所以在傳譯面的部分我們是有法院使用特約通譯的辦法"},{"start":8849.776,"end":8851.218,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會"},{"start":8869.958,"end":8870.338,"text":"立法院第11會議"},{"start":8897.901,"end":8925.467,"text":"在這個使用通譯的部分呢我們呢剛剛創辦人那邊提到的可能是比較希望要有一個統一的這個機構來做這部分的通譯的推動那我們認證我們也是樂觀其成的那可能進一步看細節要再怎麼樣的討論那其他的討論譬如說剛剛有提到說傳譯完了以後有一個特約通譯服務情形的意見反應表"},{"start":8926.807,"end":8946.156,"text":"我記得是那個簽評那邊提出來的那我們這邊這個傳譯服務情形的反應表主要是作為說使用通譯的人他可能是當事人也可能是證人在法庭上使用通譯的人他們對於這個通譯有什麼樣的反應的意見他們可以在這個表上"},{"start":8946.476,"end":8946.496,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8971.301,"end":8989.979,"text":"法庭上不論是民事案件或者是刑事案件都有使用通譯的情況那法院也有備有通譯所以不曉得那個實際的情況是怎麼樣如果有需要了解的話我也希望這個專家學者可以提供一些資料讓我知道說那個個案是什麼樣的情況是沒有用到通譯"},{"start":8991.841,"end":9001.309,"text":"今天來到這邊我們聽到了很多專家學者的意見我們也會帶回去作為我們進進我們通譯制度的參考以上報告"},{"start":9003.846,"end":9031.757,"text":"謝謝司法院對於徐瑞熙理事長的意見就是有關於我們內政部我們要推行的這個通譯制度經濟事辦計畫到底預算有多少然後好像剛剛也有一些專家學者有提到就是說那這個是要如何的運用如何的運作那是不是請內政部我們移民署黃林鈺組長要來作為一個回覆嗎"},{"start":9041.057,"end":9065.538,"text":"主席還有各位夥伴大家好我想今天很高興有聽到很多先進對於這個議題這麼的關切那其實這個也是我們各機關長期以來非常重視的一項業務因為其實跟我們的業務推展有非常密切的關係我們也希望能夠與時俱進那行政院在去年其實就交付了我們內政部這項任務因為他是在新住民事務協調匯報的時候有委員提起"},{"start":9068.48,"end":9068.66,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9087.395,"end":9087.415,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9105.671,"end":9125.284,"text":"在這個資格培訓的這個認定的部分呢基本上也是有很多的朋友跟我們反映說其實通譯員的華語能力常常有時候反而是翻譯上的最大的困境所以我們在這一次裡面呢就把這個培訓資格的要件把華語能力放進去那也加了這個基本的學經歷的門檻我們希望就陳老師所說的這個量夠了"},{"start":9130.367,"end":9130.387,"text":"培訓現況"},{"start":9138.722,"end":9167.063,"text":"其實現行大概就是各機關都是各自培訓那時數也都不一致有的8有的12有的14有的15都不同那行政院也做了一個盤點跟討論那我們也設計出了基本的基礎課程還有包括這個專業課程那專業課程就是由授權由各機關依照自己的專業度來設計那基礎課程呢就是各機關一定要避上的包括通譯技巧"},{"start":9168.084,"end":9168.264,"text":"包括他們第一線現場模擬"},{"start":9194.181,"end":9194.421,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":9214.366,"end":9214.506,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":9234.312,"end":9251.291,"text":"以前不管什麼樣的案件大大小小不管是服務站的服務區公所的服務員生育保健員然後乃至我們跟警政署我們專情隊常用的這些筆錄通通都是300塊那我們這次也做了一些建議我們可能會把費用就兩極化"},{"start":9254.026,"end":9270.033,"text":"提高這個 增加一個公共事務的部分公共事務主要就是指的移民署跟警政署我們這邊在做司法警察機關在進行行政或是司法調查的時候他們的費用會提高至少到每小時500"},{"start":9271.354,"end":9282.705,"text":"那一般的這個行政協助的部分一般的口譯的部分就是大概像移民署的這個服務站的部分他們服務的是比較簡單的協助填表之類的可能會調到350那因為這是我們的預劃是草案"},{"start":9287.528,"end":9288.649,"text":"行政院決定關切詞彙資料庫"},{"start":9303.914,"end":9331.124,"text":"到底誰是對的他們自己也很confused所以我們移民署從去年我們就先先做了第一個事辦的計畫就是在基金找了一個一個小錢一個委託研究今年應該會年底會結案我們先找越南語跟印尼語那針對大家比較常用的移民法國籍法就業服務法還有家暴防治法等等這幾個比較核心還有健保法從裡面去抓取一些常用的詞彙"},{"start":9333.235,"end":9360.353,"text":"長用的詞彙也就是說他們在翻譯上覺得很困擾的那些詞彙那這些詞彙呢透過一個篩選篩選出來之後呢他們會經過一些有個小組會去做審議就是找出一個最合適的一個翻譯方式那目前呢這是一個這是我們第一次這樣做啦那研究者也是第一次這樣做所以我們還在try希望這樣的成果出來到底能不能貼近實務上的需要所以它需要經過檢定的需要經過檢定"},{"start":9362.975,"end":9363.115,"text":"通譯資料庫"},{"start":9382.003,"end":9397.591,"text":"希望這個慢慢的把這個詞彙資料庫能夠建立起來那我們也跟教育部商量好就是說他們有一個樂詞網樂詞網目前裡面只有中英雙語其實是不夠啦因為國內不是只有中英文所以我們也希望說到時候我們這些翻譯完畢經過各機關"},{"start":9401.893,"end":9422.157,"text":"公開讓大家運用這是我們長期的目標至於中間可能就是各機關也會依著他自己的專業需要要各自去發展我們是有這樣的共識這個是一個事半計畫我想可能沒有辦法期待他包山包海全部解決大家剛剛所提的檯面上所有的問題"},{"start":9423.897,"end":9428.52,"text":"總是一步一步的往前推我們也希望說這個事辦計畫為期兩年兩年後我們也希望再繼續的盤點這兩年當中發現了各樣的問題然後持續的在滾動進進所以剛剛很多先進有提到說"},{"start":9439.966,"end":9440.166,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":9466.96,"end":9490.857,"text":"這是個很大的工程,不容易,因為NATI,不管是NATI或是TIS National,其實他們都有非常龐大的人力據我了解,那個TIS裡面就有三千多位翻譯人員,所以他每年的營業額會來到一億澳幣是一個非常龐大的機關,每年受理的通數來到一百萬通這個龐大的機關是,它的量能很大"},{"start":9491.437,"end":9515.316,"text":"那所以各位可以看看哪個機關我們可以持下類似這樣的這個所以我想每個國家有他自己在這個發展的脈絡他會有他自己的一些機制那可能各國跟各國之間有一些差異性但是別人做得好的我覺得我們可以去學習那我覺得我們還是有很多可以再精進的部分那以上我就先做這樣簡要的報告謝謝"},{"start":9518.098,"end":9518.639,"text":"太嘉洛語"},{"start":9544.959,"end":9545.98,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9560.526,"end":9560.646,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9586.678,"end":9609.169,"text":"一個政府所主持的一個專責單位是我們每個人期待的那是不是能夠馬上就一步就做到我想這次就像黃立業組長所講的這是一個很龐大的這個工程我們也知道那我們希望就是說從這事辦計畫開始我們往後越來越精進那再來我們就再請教我們各位專家寫者有需不需要有第二輪的發言需要補充的嗎好來我們請我們小影評雙動人"},{"start":9615.868,"end":9616.63,"text":"好謝謝因為只有3分鐘我講快一點"},{"start":9627.162,"end":9654.901,"text":"剛剛講的那個替代性創傷就是有一些疾病需要去預防是心理的通譯人員的心理疾病那個叫替代性創傷因為我上課的時候有教這個有分為事前的迴避跟事後的治療這個我就不再講這個Victorious Trauma這東西應該是立委通譯課程裡面去教才對然後第二個通譯不該被當事人平和"},{"start":9656.54,"end":9682.783,"text":"司法同意因為我們在進行司法同意的時候那個司法同意在法律上的地位是當事人角色他不應該被當事人再評核一次我想這是對我們司法同意人員基本的尊重就像學校老師學生可以評是因為他們上他們的課可是他們去做司法同意的時候是去被法院邀請的你還評他我覺得這本身就是不是很禮貌"},{"start":9683.583,"end":9706.376,"text":"是不可以這樣子用那個questionary給他評這是不適合的然後第三個就是各使用單位就是有司法通譯需求跟通譯需求的使用單位應該要定期做人員的在職訓練教育就是如何使用司法通譯或是如何使用通譯人員這些對於使用"},{"start":9707.316,"end":9723.125,"text":"如果接近這個資源甚至這些同意人員基本的認識或是基本的尊重我想這個都要定期來上課不管是法官、檢察官或是律師還是我們的執法人員我覺得都是有必要要定期的訓練第三個"},{"start":9727.368,"end":9746.539,"text":"還是呼籲主席就是我們禁訴立法通過將這個多元文化語言需求的這個事權統一在某個部會但絕對不會在執法部會這個是必須要的因為在座出席的各位官員我點名一下"},{"start":9747.699,"end":9773.047,"text":"移民署、警政署請問你們出乎歸程哪裡有寫到說你們要辦同意這件事?有嗎?沒有嗎?都是一個行政命令交辦而已如果我們是以法治國家來看都是需要立法通過才能去執行那這些單位誰做誰倒楣誰做誰水餃都是這樣子就是做了以後就開始被罵底下開始被罵那人力也不夠預算也不夠"},{"start":9774.648,"end":9778.478,"text":"專業也不夠然後一直做就一直被底下的幹掉一直被罵"},{"start":9779.727,"end":9803.278,"text":"我還是覺得主席還是比較有遠見開了這個公聽會就是趕快統一事權沒有事權統一的話其他各單位一直做一直做就一直被罵這個是不適合的尤其內政部警政署跟移民署在做這個他本身就是司法警察跟準司法警察這怎麼可以去培訓司法通譯呢我就覺得怪怪的他培訓出來司法通譯他是要幹嘛"},{"start":9804.338,"end":9820.979,"text":"他是要幫助解決司法單位的問題還是要解決語言不通的人的問題我覺得這個都很有很有意義然後建議將那個預算不夠的部分我覺得這個是可以挪的不是嗎像勞動部那邊有這個就業安定基金我講一下然後"},{"start":9822.781,"end":9836.054,"text":"內政部也是用居安利基金然後司法院法務部他是有編預算其實那些東西我們是也在公布這很好算的一年的件數再加上價錢不就算出來了"},{"start":9837.35,"end":9864.099,"text":"就明年再編那個預算就好如果說有一個主管的單位預算就出來了有錢難道也不能辦事嗎這就很簡單的事情只是大家願不願意做最後來廣告一下本會也有平台也是200多個人都是商戶勞動部TTQS還有ICAP級別的可能大家聽不懂我在講什麼就是請勞動部這邊加油一下你們那個TTQS跟ICAP推了半天結果好像沒有人鳥你們"},{"start":9864.779,"end":9883.436,"text":"所以我覺得這很可惜它是一個澳洲職能的認證那很多單位都已經通過這個認證它等於是國家級的認證通過了以後 結果勞動部力有未待勞動部加油一下勞動部要趕快再推行一下甚至請指揮老師比如說北中南都有那個"},{"start":9884.727,"end":9907.269,"text":"研究所 翻研究所他們都可以用TTQS跟ICAP那套模組去幫那個通譯人員上課提升我們通譯人員的水準水準提高了以後再來談價錢沒有license沒有那個認可的東西怎麼去跟人家提高價錢這個可能公部門也不會同意我在想也是這樣子然後"},{"start":9909.455,"end":9936.988,"text":"對於這個司法院的回覆本身我感到三點第一個 同情第二個 氣憤第三個 無奈這個我在104年參加貴部的會議的時候你們就已經這樣講了就是我司法院我有預算我有法規那其他的單位呢不關我的事就是這樣子那這個也是凸顯了我們這個事權沒有統一事權沒有統一就大家來來去去那"},{"start":9939.856,"end":9966.698,"text":"這邊剛才也講過,內政部移民署跟警政署我剛才查了一下,初步規程裡面沒有講到說要做通譯連編都扯不到用到的都是新住民什麼基金那個東西是要用在新住民身上而且給專業的人在用這個我們執法單位是不適合再繼續這樣辦我必須對我們廣大的執法人員感到委屈跟抱歉"},{"start":9968.479,"end":9986.637,"text":"做了一些不該做的事所以移民署還在查會還有什麼非洲租賃也關移民署的事情就是很奇怪他就做了一些不該做的事情然後人力也沒有再增加然後又要做那麼多事情基層很累所以還是回到那個依法行政"},{"start":9987.398,"end":10006.39,"text":"如果說初步規程不修正就請立法院趕緊加緊腳步趕快統一事權解救那個基層很辛苦的執法通人每天都找不到同意三更半夜都打給我這真的是很可憐我們現在以現行的制度所建立的這個"},{"start":10007.779,"end":10025.966,"text":"洋洋灑灑的東西事實上是不足、不夠用、不夠好為什麼?人員不夠、專業不夠、能力不夠麻煩還是專業的還是交給專家去做我們公部門人力有限還是做我們自己本分的工作就好"},{"start":10029.894,"end":10043.964,"text":"謝謝我們的創辦人提供很多基層的聲音跟意見剛剛有提到勞動部我印象當中勞動部是所有的使用單位裡面唯一沒有提供培訓課程的"},{"start":10046.186,"end":10046.426,"text":"徐瑞熙議員"},{"start":10073.53,"end":10084.845,"text":"很高興參加這個座談會但是我想公聽會那我想要強調幾個第一個就是說我們要做這個計畫之前我們一定要有一些很好的一些就是怎麼樣來訓練這些這些這個通譯的專業"},{"start":10088.55,"end":10118.144,"text":"那所以在這個部分上面我覺得最重要的事情對基礎的一個工作就是我們怎麼樣運用AI來輔助我並不是說要用AI來取代我想這個事情是很大的一個差別然後另外一個因為事實上現在我們連有一些定義啊一些名詞在使用的時候都不一致那這個通譯用這樣子那個通譯用這樣子然後定義他們在認知的一些定義上又不一致所以這個部分其實是一個可以規格化一致化的一個"},{"start":10118.744,"end":10145.283,"text":"一個這樣的一個建構的標準應該是要透過這些人工智慧來做那第二個就是說關於就是剛才移民署所提到的其實我覺得我們剛才有提到一個非常重要的就是說在整個那個通譯的這個服務過程當中我認為通譯有了這些這個一個類似像教科書的一個這樣子的一個通譯資料庫的一個協助之後更重要的是他在翻譯的時候"},{"start":10146.144,"end":10170.792,"text":"他整個的一個他自己專業的精神應該怎麼做就像剛才這個陳允平也提到了就是說我們像我們有一些同意到那個警察局去可是你知道那個警察局在問案的時候我們的翻譯姐妹呢要被他們的就是會跟那個這個可能是犯罪人就是開始有一些溝通他們常常會私底下跟他講說姐姐我們都是同一個國家的人你應該要來幫我"},{"start":10175.353,"end":10175.814,"text":"第三個,我想"},{"start":10197.529,"end":10221.258,"text":"立刻呼籲一件事情不要等到這個計畫做現在的通譯在第一線的時候就有一些部分會面臨這個安全的問題譬如說像我們的在彰化8月份發生了一個這個半夜這個這個印尼移工啊二三十個人群毆然後這個還死人的這個事情翻譯姊妹到現場非常恐懼他一方面要看到這個影片"},{"start":10221.798,"end":10222.138,"text":"王主任"},{"start":10250.584,"end":10273.753,"text":"有些事我剛講過了第一個認為這個法院應該是一定要有配同意只要是這個移工或者是新住民如果檢察官或法官要問的話一定要確定他可以真的完全理解才可以不可以只是隨便問一句你懂國語嗎懂好不用分析這樣是絕對不行的我們剛前面都講過了有些還"},{"start":10274.773,"end":10275.113,"text":"醫院也必須有翻譯"},{"start":10302.376,"end":10330.533,"text":"我特別要求剛剛這個衛福部講的我還是不太滿意就是你們講的講法是說希望醫院自己來平和如果可以的話由醫院自己來聘用可是這整個是因為國家的制度你不應該是讓各級醫院由自己的能力來聘如果要用各級能力來如果是完全讓自己來平衡的話那我想可能只有大的醫院比較有錢的醫院才有可能那他們都不一定會做現在醫院做的是排班的志工那志工其實也是很"},{"start":10331.434,"end":10332.615,"text":"因為這些人他可能對他的病痛或者傷害是有關係的他是有利害衝突的"},{"start":10361.249,"end":10361.269,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10384.036,"end":10384.176,"text":"主席"},{"start":10402.454,"end":10429.15,"text":"謝謝王主任剛剛王主任提到一點就是說所以我們為什麼今天要開這個公聽會因為我們看到了一些通譯跟翻譯的亂象但這亂象來自於哪裡呢就是各級醫院各級單位各自處理問題就出在這邊了所以才會說為什麼我們需要國家能夠來支持這個部分由國家來主導來支持然後讓這個通譯的制度更加的完善"},{"start":10429.71,"end":10433.352,"text":"好,那還有沒有?來,我們...運興基金會主席好,我想,第一個我想要先回應剛簽評提出來的,就是那個長照的這個相關的資訊其實要給新住民,要翻譯成多語,其實這個建議其實反映一件事情,其實不是每位新住民他都能夠通曉華語,不管他來到台灣多久,每個人他的能力"},{"start":10458.41,"end":10459.311,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":10486.607,"end":10486.627,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10508.16,"end":10508.18,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10538.08,"end":10538.42,"text":"立法院第11會議"},{"start":10555.903,"end":10556.463,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":10579.591,"end":10579.691,"text":"一樓的這個詞會那麼複雜"},{"start":10597.799,"end":10597.819,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10622.828,"end":10623.549,"text":"通譯可以成為一個專業嗎?"},{"start":10641.886,"end":10641.986,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10665.248,"end":10665.268,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10687.108,"end":10692.39,"text":"謝謝我們李主任還有沒有第二次發言的專家學者沒有很謝謝我們所有專家學者跟我們部會長官的參與讓公聽會能夠順利圓滿的結束"},{"start":10710.168,"end":10710.728,"text":"委員提供書面資料"},{"start":10740.508,"end":10740.528,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10762.325,"end":10762.365,"text":"公聽會結束"},{"start":10936.399,"end":10937.105,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15329","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15329","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dda9f2818acb4c29c54d503f9c4523e57146d53a332764a53506c7c85ac85de1015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司營業預算。三、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金－國道公路建設管理基金分預算。四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金－鐵道發展基金分預算。五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金－臺鐵局撥入資產及債務管理基金分預算。（以上5案均詢答完畢，本日進行處理）【12月4日、6日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-04","start_time":"2023-12-04T08:31:15+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-10-8-23-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-04T12:31:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14385,"委員發言時間":"08:31:15 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t":"各位委員我們今天的順序是不是我來建議大家看同不同意第一個我們來處理中華郵政第二個國道基金第三個台鐵公司第四個台鐵債務管理基金第五個鐵道基金好不好好那中華郵政先來"},{"start":2613.257,"end":2632.445,"text":"中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分有限交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分有限公司營業預算。六、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。七、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。八、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。"},{"start":2633.485,"end":2652.123,"text":"引領傢俱並移居營業收入。謝主席,北極提第一案是我們明年度2024年的中華郵政公司的其他營業收入。其子的內容主要就是挨郵購的收入還有其他代收包裹稅款等等。"},{"start":2653.504,"end":2672.571,"text":"這筆收入其實在去年就是去年之前的三年2020年到2021、2022它的質詢率都超過百分之一百分別為百分之一百一、一百一十四、百分之一百零六那其中IEOC的收入在2020到2022每一年它都固定編兩千三百五十萬"},{"start":2673.351,"end":2675.373,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":2696.468,"end":2698.03,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":2712.222,"end":2734.673,"text":"我個人的看法,我剛好跟林俊鑫,不好意思,我剛跟他相反我認為這個IoGo的收入是我存疑那因為我所了解IoGo的執行的這個大增速不是這麼高是你們社會的目標太低了才大增率那麼高實際上執行情形不是很好"},{"start":2735.814,"end":2738.937,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":2756.031,"end":2757.212,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":2773.248,"end":2790.601,"text":"所以這一點我覺得說我沒有建議說我不是建議說要登列預算我是要求這個是實際上去核實去瞭解這個案子執行的情況作為一個報告在做預算上處理謝謝好接下來黃文凱羅議員"},{"start":2792.762,"end":2794.883,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":2810.212,"end":2813.574,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":2839.208,"end":2840.429,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":2859.228,"end":2884.943,"text":"我覺得這樣子反而會本末倒置,你可以理解我意思嗎?就是說,對於我們來講,我們當然是希望愛郵購能夠推廣更好,能夠發揮我們中華郵政的優勢,我們的據點多,我們的郵務同仁非常辛苦遞現,可是不要說讓他們變成是說白忙一場,而且業務太繁雜,然後還有就是變成都是要變成政府部門消化,或是說政府部門賣不出去的,沒有辦法消的,"},{"start":2885.203,"end":2886.024,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":2908.597,"end":2912.359,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":2924.486,"end":2926.868,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":2947.543,"end":2948.724,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":2963.814,"end":2965.655,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":2988.587,"end":2993.673,"text":"我覺得這個是可以逐項來分析討論請董事長跟總經理針對這個郵購、愛郵購的部分能夠核實然後能夠針對每個細項做個討論做個調查陳交通委員"},{"start":3005.265,"end":3012.989,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":3028.596,"end":3032.001,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3045.72,"end":3048.421,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3072.472,"end":3073.173,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3097.875,"end":3098.616,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3122.157,"end":3125.118,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3137.902,"end":3140.245,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3155.666,"end":3171.913,"text":"所以我們有時候跟農委會做聯合推薦譬如講說到現在有將近1000項的品項就是讓這些有有機認證或者是生產履歷優質的農產品能夠在我們的IoGo這邊來做銷售平台"},{"start":3172.293,"end":3173.274,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3191.773,"end":3193.694,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3221.388,"end":3223.208,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3246.713,"end":3249.275,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3273.075,"end":3276.338,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3300.999,"end":3301.76,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3322.642,"end":3327.705,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3350.178,"end":3350.639,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3366.676,"end":3368.417,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3393.453,"end":3405.487,"text":"一百一十一、一百一十二、一百一十三到明年你每年都固定編兩千三百五十萬為什麼?那有人公司編收入項目因為連續四年你都不會成長嗎?"},{"start":3409.13,"end":3429.299,"text":"但是你實際都超過啦,你都收到100分之100幾嘛,我會覺得你預算編的是不是要核實嘛那一般公司都會對收入項目一定是每年會編測自己會有一些成長對不對,然後就自己都一層原地踏步,連續四五年都編同一個數字所以,來總經理你解釋一下"},{"start":3435.901,"end":3457.906,"text":"來 謝謝您委員 我覺得剛剛您委員提的很有道理這個整個維護的成長 正常的成長是很重要所以剛剛委員提到說 要這個增熱500萬這個當然我們如果認真做 也許做得到 但是也許這邊有壓力那300萬次 300萬我接受啦主席我接受 我只跟你說你平均收入5人 當年都平均連算5張對啊 金縣委員的"},{"start":3459.446,"end":3461.107,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3487.162,"end":3489.023,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3515.843,"end":3517.083,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3536.77,"end":3539.852,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3553.182,"end":3570.107,"text":"接著我們來處理第三到六案那三到六案我們李坤澤委員謝謝主席那第三案是有關於中華郵政公司在113年度我們的暫儲包裝代理以及加工費那編列了39億2833萬元但是我們來"},{"start":3575.689,"end":3577.071,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3592.547,"end":3614.502,"text":"僅僅比112年增加了4.91你增加比例7%但是你的收入增加只有4.91%而已相關的預算當然是應該要更加的尊嚴所以中華郵政公司的這個113年度有關於暫儲包裝代理及加工費預算編列39億2833萬元應該要3.1千萬元以上"},{"start":3620.166,"end":3648.256,"text":"另外是第四案中華郵政公司的外包費預算113年度編列了14億1888萬元它的用途主要是作為禁用勞務的承攬人力但是勞務承攬人力時常發生這種勞動權益保障不足例如特休假的計算等等的問題其實都是影響勞工的權利"},{"start":3649.957,"end":3652.398,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3678.703,"end":3696.802,"text":"好接著林俊憲委員好謝謝主席呃本期跟副委員一樣關我們要關心有限運輸費用的暫儲包裝代理及交通費我是提第五案那這個這筆預算齁其實很大部分是委外啦"},{"start":3697.142,"end":3700.844,"text":"有限公司營業預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":3724.437,"end":3730.364,"text":"是不是因為疫情已經趨緩還有物流需求不像疫情期間量那麼大"},{"start":3731.667,"end":3735.909,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3758.798,"end":3762,"text":"中華郵政股份有限公司營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業部分"},{"start":3784.807,"end":3801.071,"text":"好,那是不是先請中華郵政來說明一下?報告,那個第三,那個報告李光哲委員所提的那個第三案最主要就是說金融營業成本就VISA卡的那個手續費跟清算費以國外的部分"},{"start":3801.571,"end":3802.712,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3819.338,"end":3846.622,"text":"那另外就是關於保障成本能力這個部分事實上我們目前是有就是說有針對委外人力的部分都有訂立企業那裡面有工作項目實踐還有一些保障還有一些投保還有一些漏退基金等等事實上都有那你跟著委員的指示我們會再繼續進行就是說我們還會再繼續看去檢討就是說這個委外合約裡面有沒有需要再增加保障員工權益的部分"},{"start":3847.222,"end":3849.845,"text":"四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3868.064,"end":3874.767,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。三、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。四、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。五、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。"},{"start":3895.234,"end":3896.635,"text":"主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算"},{"start":3911.469,"end":3933.125,"text":"你說他只要在我們郵政公司的員工上班以前把車子運到然後就沒有人管了他都會把藍車偷走那以前為什麼沒有發生還是以前一樣有發生有發生過一次啦這次量又太大了啦你偷兩百幾台 偷兩百四十幾台藍車很大耶 鐵路很大"},{"start":3937.848,"end":3939.749,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":3966.741,"end":3981.729,"text":"好來那各位有沒有其他的意見第三到六案的避難處理那中華郵政這邊有沒有什麼建議報告稍微那個跟委員就是說這個三次六案是不是可以凍結一千萬然後提出書面之後才可以"},{"start":3983.21,"end":4000.522,"text":"三到六萬總共三十九億兩千八百多萬你要凍結一千萬書面報告我覺得不太能接受我相信體安的委員大概也不太能接受不然就凍十分之一"},{"start":4005.047,"end":4012.638,"text":"三到六案避難處理暫處包裝代理及加工費凍結十分之一書面報告後"},{"start":4016.636,"end":4045.879,"text":"好 尊重召委但是在這邊還是要具體要求吳厚某董事長、江瑞堂總經理對於外包的這些承攬人力必須針對他們這些勞工的基本權益例如休假、待遇還有相關的工時都要站在保障勞工的基本權益這個不是說我們外包出去了這個就不關中華郵政的這種相關的事情這個都是要站在督促的這樣的一個角度"},{"start":4046.579,"end":4047.64,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4067.509,"end":4075.071,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4097.957,"end":4121.046,"text":"謝謝主席那本席提的是第7案那針對中華郵政在明年度的推展費編列了5億1867萬5千元那我們知道在今年7月就是有發生就是韓國有收到由臺灣寄過去的這個毒氣包裹那這個對我們國家的形象也算傷害很大那事後當然證實說這個是由中國轉寄的這個有"},{"start":4124.687,"end":4125.809,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4139.969,"end":4140.91,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4157.563,"end":4158.784,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4179.814,"end":4182.135,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4200.981,"end":4205.783,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4225.305,"end":4226.285,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4248.735,"end":4249.475,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4271.101,"end":4272.782,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4300.774,"end":4303.995,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4325.799,"end":4352.977,"text":"好,那個放鬆那個承受的委員就是關於那個貨轉油的部分那就是這個貨轉油我們今年是先決定暫時停辦到年底然後我們就是說可能要針對貨轉油這個提出一個檢討就是說發生毒氣這個事件那最主要就是說我們貨轉油就是透過一些業者然後把一些大陸的一些貨件交運過來那我們可能會重新再去檢討就是要去加強業者規範例如說"},{"start":4354.258,"end":4355.219,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4374.215,"end":4376.017,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4398.675,"end":4399.857,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4414.232,"end":4438.563,"text":"那你不要再設點了,拜託齁,你沒有要設點沒有沒有沒有要設點,沒有要設點我只是就是可以收沒關係,要不要擴展對,就是陳述說愛油箱為什麼它的績效沒有那麼好的最主要原因那另外就是怎麼辦啊那就是我們現在就是說剛才那個林委所提到我們三層愛油箱不到30%這一個部分我們會去重新去調整它的點位把這個使用率提高,這樣子"},{"start":4439.443,"end":4440.183,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4462.896,"end":4465.277,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4487.703,"end":4489.423,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4515.071,"end":4534.76,"text":"推展費是有增加推展的內容各營業項目有的有成長有的沒有成長停滯不前原因檢討還有怎麼樣去改善改進或者是調整行銷策略推展策略等等我覺得這個書面報告要寫清楚好不好那我們是不是來處理預算"},{"start":4536.221,"end":4538.802,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4556.187,"end":4573.779,"text":"邱顯智委員、陳歐珀委員、林俊憲委員第10案也是埃油箱的部分剛剛林俊憲委員這個案他有講過類似的狀況那11案的這個部分就是說因為這個"},{"start":4576.341,"end":4582.646,"text":"中華郵政挨郵購客戶別銷售金額概況108年度到111年度皆以銷售與內部員工為主銷售金額介於2億4千萬到3億5千萬之間佔比介於66.5%至73%之間"},{"start":4598.098,"end":4607.389,"text":"但是一般的這個網購的客戶銷售金額這個佔比就差很多大概1億7到這個佔比僅介於在26%到32%之間"},{"start":4613.396,"end":4618.297,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4643.402,"end":4645.183,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4660.97,"end":4662.952,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4688.854,"end":4690.556,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4697.193,"end":4700.775,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4719.906,"end":4721.027,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4749.901,"end":4753.883,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4777.756,"end":4779.176,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4806.909,"end":4810.951,"text":"愛郵箱跟愛郵購都算是比較新興的中華郵政的業務還有一項就是保險的業務這對工作人員來講是很大的一個負擔"},{"start":4824.164,"end":4825.845,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4853.82,"end":4879.937,"text":"那中華郵政其實有六、七兆的一個資本應該針對這個資本提出一個比較大的方向的一個土地的活化或資金的應用我覺得這個可能還會為國家賺更多的這個利潤這個不用你再講那你現在郵箱蠻方便結果這個使用力那麼低而且浪費我們那麼多成本這個在經濟效益上真的是有待檢討"},{"start":4881.178,"end":4906.689,"text":"那我還是一句話就是說其實中華郵政其實就很認真在努力在工作我高度肯定中華郵政公司包括董事長總經理包括通人但是我們對中華郵政有很大期待因為這麼龐大的公司人那麼多兩萬多人而且資本有那麼多六七兆其實有很多可以作為的地方那其實現在有這樣的公司的話一年"},{"start":4907.609,"end":4910.59,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4934.724,"end":4945.388,"text":"好 謝謝主席本期第13案是我們郵件處理費的修理保養和保固費用明年度編的3億5千多萬那這筆錢其實跟剛剛蘇業委員講的中華郵政貨轉郵業務基本上有關係"},{"start":4954.656,"end":4967.2,"text":"因為這筆錢主要發揮在郵件的分檢處理設備維護還有其他機械交通運輸等設備其實國家每年都花很多錢中華郵政這筆預算從2020年開始每年都超過3億"},{"start":4972.113,"end":4974.114,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":4993.164,"end":4994.446,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5014.77,"end":5017.212,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5042.691,"end":5067.359,"text":"所以我認為這筆預算比3.1千萬凍結十分之一那你中華郵政你應該告訴我們你如果提升貨檢設備的性能確保郵件安全或者你要只要出在遇到八國有問題你要把整體把整個業務給關起來原來你的對於危機處理是用這種方式這筆業務收入在你的整體收入百分之八成你把它關起來那你怎麼辦"},{"start":5068.319,"end":5069.02,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5090.196,"end":5091.758,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5113.95,"end":5137.708,"text":"2021年你只編4千萬花2億7千萬2022年你編8千5百萬花2億3千萬2023年就今年你只編8千5百萬到12點就花了3億4千萬你編預算你給我們省有什麼意義啊你編了幾千萬每年都花2、3億好像是說我就一個數字丟出來你省你們的我開我的"},{"start":5143.836,"end":5171.353,"text":"這個預算編列是非常離譜啦所以本期這個預算我是沒有給你刪除啦我知道你是要做那個集合嘛所以我凍結三分之一你一個月要提針對預算近年來決算書都暴增你要提出個規劃總管報告不然你要編預算你就要你超支有個限度嘛那超支600%5倍多快要3倍還有你那個集合業務的下降"},{"start":5172.83,"end":5193.516,"text":"中華郵政公司都叫員工自己要買郵票有沒有這種狀況只有集郵社集郵社不只要你買郵票集郵社要先甘情願參加還是強迫參加集郵社叫員工自己買郵票你不要弄到員工都有怨言"},{"start":5194.756,"end":5197.977,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5217.95,"end":5219.551,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5239.656,"end":5240.356,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5263.177,"end":5265.638,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5280.887,"end":5298.959,"text":"首先針對那個邱顯智委員所提的就是關於那個那個電商IOGO那個開發外部顧客這個部分其實在去年我們的外部顧客佔比大概33%那今年到11月為止已經達到48%了事實上有在提升"},{"start":5299.919,"end":5303.663,"text":"第二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5315.035,"end":5342.117,"text":"應有行政院規定標準不得為標準以外的開支所以高溫津貼這個部分可能比較有困難不過關於高溫退避標準高溫價制度還有彈性工時調整一些應用測試這個我們會來檢討會來提出書面報告那另外就是關於就是那個委員有提到中華快遞的部分這個部分我們中華郵政訂出一個標準之後我們這個標準會提供給中華快遞來參考"},{"start":5345.363,"end":5346.463,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5372.378,"end":5374.119,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5395.925,"end":5396.626,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5420.828,"end":5421.328,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5451.489,"end":5459.495,"text":"中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。二、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。三、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。"},{"start":5471.687,"end":5474.908,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5496.855,"end":5497.696,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5524.213,"end":5543.004,"text":"我們是請部長來補充說明好不好部長你先你要講油箱阿然後等一下那個預算這個核食片類這個部長你也可以要求他們這預算還有部長我順便講完他剛講的那個另外那個貨轉油他說因為油毒包裹他你看啊昨天他關到明年2024年6月貨轉油佔你營收率80%"},{"start":5549.175,"end":5551.375,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5576.912,"end":5601.864,"text":"事務長,你等於完全不設防的一個安全管理,部長你回答一下。好,各位,我就愛郵箱,這個政策我稍微解釋一下,就是說中華郵政的信件一年是5%的減少,在某一天可能這個信都沒有,但是物流一直在增加,所以當時就是說希望在物流這個體系裡面能夠強化,"},{"start":5602.944,"end":5604.385,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5633.204,"end":5635.966,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5662.859,"end":5663.619,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5692.506,"end":5700.979,"text":"轉股新建的這個部分的時間點可以比較精準的來說明一次給各位委員聽嗎?因為你剛才說明是要到2024的6月才會再開放"},{"start":5704.524,"end":5707.265,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5732.97,"end":5734.832,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5751.58,"end":5763.238,"text":"對 所以均縣委員的重點你有沒有聽到啦有有有你要回答重點阿你現在變三個字你這三個字審批是要做什麼跟處理這種這種這種有毒包裹你有沒有辦法改進啊你如果跟我們講這個啊 對我"},{"start":5768.308,"end":5790.477,"text":"那個分檢設備大概沒有辦法去過濾那個安全的問題不過針對貨轉由這個部分就是我剛才有稍微提到就是說我們加強針對為業者的規範因為貨轉由本來是業者把一些貨件從中國大陸進來但其實他不進入到國內我們也沒有分檢也沒有分檢那直接就轉改以郵件方式到達日本或者"},{"start":5790.777,"end":5792.179,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5806.946,"end":5808.087,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5827.561,"end":5830.624,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5851.761,"end":5872.831,"text":"對不起,我再問一下,我現在越聽越聽不懂你說要檢討要精進,那你到底要檢討什麼精進什麼那到底要跟其他國家要討論什麼措施那你才能夠到明年的6月再次開放如果這些你都沒有辦法回答我們的時候那現在開放跟明年6月開放有什麼不一樣"},{"start":5878.607,"end":5888.058,"text":"這個有三個面向一個就是後援這個後援都是從中國這邊來的所以那邊的這一些存款商這個他們這邊要付"},{"start":5890.04,"end":5890.721,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5912.961,"end":5914.162,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5943.743,"end":5945.407,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5951.554,"end":5953.415,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":5979.62,"end":6003.676,"text":"對,你要講得清楚啦因為這個也是我們很納悶的一件事啦因為不是昨天才發生啦也不是上個月才發生啦已經給時間了那為什麼現在要緩到明年6月底才能夠再次開放那未來的半年前面半年呢,磋商不出一個結果那後面半年又能夠磋商出一個什麼結果那你們現在怎麼進行"},{"start":6005.613,"end":6024.396,"text":"報告召委最主要就是說因為這個貨源大部分是從中國大陸來所以我們即使案發生之後我們有積極要跟中國有正確的溝通所以你的意思是說跟中國沒有辦法雙邊坐下來談嗎目前那到明年6月那你壓這個時間點你有確定明年6月底之前可以跟中國坐下來談嗎"},{"start":6026.701,"end":6046.631,"text":"就是我剛剛報告的就是你第一個就是它政府到那邊的風險我們這個合約管理如果要確認因為它有很多的廠商嘛這個會影響到他們的通路但貨轉由這邊到到達國這邊像日本、韓國這些國家我們要跟他們郵政公司我們要跟他們要雙邊要做一些討論這個東西是這樣"},{"start":6049.787,"end":6050.868,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6066.22,"end":6067.361,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6082.321,"end":6099.522,"text":"那我看各個委員的提案呢凍結呢都凍結率數都不一啦好那是不是我們也是凍結十分之一書面報告厚實的動之好不好好好那接下來我們來處理第20到26案"},{"start":6103.939,"end":6107.281,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6127.95,"end":6131.694,"text":"依據違反勞動法令的事業單位 查詢系統的資訊中華郵政公司在112年發生了兩件違反勞動基準法"},{"start":6142.615,"end":6157.728,"text":"兩件違反職業安全衛生法的違規狀態其實一再督促郵政公司要重視勞工的權益這個部分應該要檢討改善113年度有關於管理費用的預算"},{"start":6159.009,"end":6177.411,"text":"共編列37億7473萬元我認為應該要凍結10%那中華郵政公司在一個月內要該如何改善違反勞動法令的這些情形提出順利的改善報告後使得動之以上"},{"start":6178.168,"end":6197.439,"text":"好接著我們請邱顯智委員謝謝主席那我們第20案涉及到是說這個中華快遞公司長期存在低薪的這個問題那之前也一直有相關的爭議那這個部長其實也有出面的這個承諾"},{"start":6198.8,"end":6222.185,"text":"那其實交通部也屢次要求中華郵政公司必須要妥善的處理保障勞工但是實際上卻還是發生說加薪然後就扣獎金變成招三募四募四招三的這個問題已經部長承諾要加薪結果就從獎金這邊又變少那其實這個他的這個公司的這個低薪的狀況"},{"start":6222.605,"end":6224.286,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6252.225,"end":6252.666,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6269.008,"end":6270.869,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6285.616,"end":6305.141,"text":"這個其實也粗言粗說中華郵政公司對轉投資企業的治理存在重大的瑕疵為了促使中華郵政公司善盡企業治理的股東責任發揮我國國營事業對於我國勞工的保障應該有正面的影響妥善處理中華快遞公司勞資團體的協商解決長期的爭議"},{"start":6310.922,"end":6312.885,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6329.641,"end":6348.378,"text":"蘇越委員本席提的是第25案針對中華郵政公司在明年度有編列研究發展費用專業服務費600萬元用在委託專體研究案等等我們看到在去年還有今年的實際執行數只有14.6%跟3.3%"},{"start":6352.922,"end":6354.883,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6383.461,"end":6402.147,"text":"李崑澤委員中華郵政公司這十幾年來為了要洗刷在過去血汗公司的污名在郵政勞工的權利一直在努力做改善雖然我們還不是很滿意但是是朝著改善的道路"},{"start":6403.687,"end":6404.928,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6430.643,"end":6456.434,"text":"郵政公司都一點辦法對於中華郵政快遞公司不照顧勞工權益然後這種低廉的薪資讓他們一再的走上街頭而且在對話的過程裡面對勞工的這種權益的踐踏跟不當的語言我跟邱顯智委員真的是看不下去的都沒有辦法處理嗎那吳洪某董事長、江烈堂總經理你們沒有辦法處理嗎"},{"start":6459.668,"end":6481.346,"text":"對於基層勞工的基本生活這個已經是基本生活了他們不是說要讓自己的這種生活能夠往更優渥的方向不是呢連基本生活都會有問題的時候我認為你們真的是要很汗顏都沒有辦法處理等一下你們必須要具體的說明"},{"start":6483.787,"end":6500.717,"text":"中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。二、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。三、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。四、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。五、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。六、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。"},{"start":6512.063,"end":6538.273,"text":"在我們公司這邊的持股是40%是有影響力但是沒有絕對的主導性但是我們所有的5席的董事都是交代他們一定要捍衛基層員工的權利包括他們的薪資水平不能太低薪要合理那績效獎金等等這些我們就在爭取那裡面當然有一些民間的這個"},{"start":6540.715,"end":6542.236,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6558.735,"end":6567.967,"text":"能夠捍衛中華快遞基層員工所有的這些他們的權益這非常重要這個不能退讓這不能退讓這個應該是這樣再來我們在整個一個剛剛特別這個"},{"start":6574.355,"end":6599.95,"text":"邱委員有特別提到的這個當然我們按照這樣來改善這個包括提到中華快遞這一部分李委員剛剛提到的這個有一些勞動的安全或者是員工的權利或者是包括非常感謝李委員在我們這個郵政公司租借會主管待遇這部分給我們最大的協助所以我們在這邊整個員工這邊年輕的同仁"},{"start":6601.471,"end":6603.432,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6626.175,"end":6654.52,"text":"那另外一個狀況就是說我真的也會覺得說我們今天為什麼要成立這樣的一個你要用中華郵政然後去轉投資這個公司就是因為這個票據的運送是非常重要的那它承載了一個公行證的任務嘛所以但是在這個前提之下怎麼會是你的思考變成是說跟民股的思考是一致的這絕對是不對的嘛"},{"start":6655.06,"end":6655.761,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6669.983,"end":6671.103,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6689.411,"end":6690.512,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6707.995,"end":6710.757,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6724.326,"end":6726.508,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6748.203,"end":6748.844,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6764.207,"end":6765.308,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6779.318,"end":6779.618,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6796.63,"end":6797.731,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6812.134,"end":6816.117,"text":"中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。二、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。"},{"start":6830.905,"end":6832.166,"text":"中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。四、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。"},{"start":6849.272,"end":6855.596,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":6878.132,"end":6904.648,"text":"董事長也讓你了解一下就在五天前的新聞而已就是這個這個工會然後又出面去抗爭嘛那部長也說要積極處理嘛對所以就這部分的話你應該要能夠理解到底是說什麼原因何在那你剛剛講說那個會議記錄但是那個會議記錄完全看不出來說你們的你們的這個董事到底有沒有積極在發言的這個狀況"},{"start":6909.079,"end":6931.914,"text":"好 那是請部長 因為我記得上次會議當中也有提到這個問題好 我想那個中華快遞的確在去年的時候我發覺他們很多都沒有超過三萬所以當時我特別跟董事長這邊討論所以他們第一個都超過三萬加五千塊嘛那現在我知道他在談是績效獎金啊他們需要2.1 現在只願意給一個月"},{"start":6933.795,"end":6936.017,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6948.203,"end":6950.305,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":6976.247,"end":6993.552,"text":"應該是說現在的一應該是說當然非常肯定部長去履行這個加薪的承諾嘛現在問題說到年底的時候大家發現說哇我有加薪結果到年底的時候我的獎金反而又變少了那就變朝三暮四暮四朝三嘛"},{"start":6994.652,"end":6996.033,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":7014.468,"end":7015.709,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":7041.345,"end":7045.808,"text":"第二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":7068.902,"end":7071.604,"text":"二十七案113有關於固定資產的建設及改良預算編列71億6,220萬"},{"start":7089.878,"end":7113.627,"text":"那有關預算包括這些專案的計畫一般建築及設備等等那其實我們來看考量部分的專案計畫執行狀況的確是非常不好執行狀況不佳那相關的預算其實要控制跟諄解所以中華郵政的這一些71億的預算我認為應該要刪減1億元另外凍結1億元"},{"start":7117.769,"end":7137.797,"text":"就是中華郵政必須在一個月內針對過去的固定資產建設及改良辦理的成效提出檢討的書面報告那三檢一一最主要是我們的這些預算的這種執行的狀況的確是不佳啦那這個部分要請董事長來做說明一下"},{"start":7139.209,"end":7141.351,"text":"本席提的是第29案針對中華郵政公司在113年度編列郵政物流園區建置計劃32億3583萬8千元這個部分"},{"start":7156.605,"end":7177.55,"text":"事實上這個計畫我們看到它是從行政院在103年就已經合併到現在也有10年的時間可是整個整體的一個計畫的進度在這個預算的執行率或者是工程的一個執行率上都偏低所以不如預期所以在這個部分本席是要求這個中華郵政公司應該要去檢討然後加快控管這個工程的一個進度跟進程"},{"start":7184.091,"end":7185.292,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":7203.451,"end":7217.323,"text":"最大宗的就是A7物流園區這一部分的話當然原來有資訊中心稍微微乎若火我們在年底之前我們要求他進度一定要改善要達到原來的"},{"start":7218.644,"end":7220.805,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":7246.554,"end":7247.235,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7271.241,"end":7281.914,"text":"所以來我可不可以請教一下以這一個第27到30案裡面的固定資產的建設改良擴充計畫裡面你說最大的計畫是這個郵政物流園區嗎那這個園區現在進度到的是"},{"start":7288.909,"end":7290.049,"text":"那其他委員有沒有"},{"start":7315.097,"end":7333.127,"text":"意見那我們第27到30案是不是因為李昆澤委員有刪減案那我們是不是就不刪減那就凍結一議書面報告後值得動之好謝謝召委然後接著我們來處理主決議案來第31案"},{"start":7344.819,"end":7347.18,"text":"三十二案遵照辦理"},{"start":7362.688,"end":7365.509,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":7388.675,"end":7389.456,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":7412.884,"end":7434.168,"text":"有跟委員溝通過好,如果有溝通過那就修正通過好,謝謝來,43案遵照辦理好,再案通過44案遵照辦理再案通過45案遵照辦理再案通過46案46案這個就是來,居縣委員在現場來有沒有溝通過報告委員就是就是就是什麼"},{"start":7435.077,"end":7456.33,"text":"主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份"},{"start":7465.155,"end":7466.696,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":7481.667,"end":7488.393,"text":"主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。四、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。"},{"start":7497.541,"end":7498.963,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":7520.623,"end":7521.805,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7534.281,"end":7535.242,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":7559.821,"end":7562.583,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":7586.923,"end":7590.424,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":7617.23,"end":7638.726,"text":"好不好欸欸那個俊憲俊憲委員的說法要求也是應該合理的啦齁那我們是不是在中華郵政的我建議啦我個人啦齁在這一個這個主決議的倒數123固建請中華郵政股份有限公司把那個因改成延益好不好好修正通過"},{"start":7649.684,"end":7664.63,"text":"好來我們處理完畢中華郵政公司的人員可以先行離席好接著我們處理國道我們休息五分鐘好不好"},{"start":7687.473,"end":7703.787,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":7717.232,"end":7726.738,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。六、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。七、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。八、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":7764.053,"end":7777.795,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":7957.71,"end":7962.513,"text":"現在來審國道公路建設管理基金有一個案子有一個提案國道公路建設管理基金的第一案予以撤案此次交通委員會不予處理"},{"start":7988.188,"end":7992.015,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8001.397,"end":8004.198,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":8027.441,"end":8028.302,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":8051.158,"end":8077.618,"text":"五年來的增加幅度快要一半增加了43%尤其你明年度的那個國道事故處理費用編了6億4千萬6億3890幾萬比今年還增加20%可見這個照理講國道事故處理應該是要降低他的事故發生你現在是編了更多的預算來處理車禍以後"},{"start":8080.816,"end":8085.98,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。三、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。四、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。"},{"start":8109.315,"end":8111.456,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":8133.257,"end":8136.54,"text":"陳素月委員、陳降華委員、李昆哲委員國道基金在113年度勞務成本、服務費用、修理、保養及保固費編列82億2573萬6千元"},{"start":8150.532,"end":8151.513,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8170.942,"end":8175.485,"text":"中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。四、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。五、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。六、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。"},{"start":8198.499,"end":8199.38,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":8222.349,"end":8222.849,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":8250.717,"end":8272.19,"text":"不僅這個事故增加了是整個交通體系事故的發生真的是讓人民眾非常的憂心部長跟局長我先提醒你們你們看看這段期間"},{"start":8274.382,"end":8301.697,"text":"單單因為施工所造成的鐵路跟公路系統造成的死傷事件每一件都是讓民眾觸目驚心你看台鐵、太魯閣號、工程車的落軌造成那麼大的傷亡高鐵、高雄的那個水泥塔它的壓倒了這些相關的電纜造成高鐵嚴重的一個霧點"},{"start":8303.308,"end":8329.74,"text":"台中捷運這種塔式的起重機倒塌也造成傷亡現在連高工局啊竟然台電施工造成電纜的斷裂全國的民眾看到那個電纜斷裂啊造成那個車禍的那種狀況啊真的是讓民眾非常的痛心啊觸目驚心啊大家都非常的難過"},{"start":8331.426,"end":8358.678,"text":"連在高速公路上都會發生這樣的一個狀況高工局不知道臺電會施工嗎?雖然他們沒有申報相關的施工計畫這是最主要的原因但是他們在施工你們一點都不知道嗎?沒有相關的監測系統可以掌握嗎?這個是非常的嚴重我們不能說他們施工他們沒有申報我們都不知道"},{"start":8359.98,"end":8380.927,"text":"那如果這樣永遠我們的鐵道系統我們的公路系統都處在一個危險的狀況因為交通部不能以這個來做一個理由跟藉口這個等一下趙局長你必須要明確的說明這個處理的狀況以及相關因應的這樣的一個對策"},{"start":8381.98,"end":8410.829,"text":"另外我們看到反撞車在過去告訴公路也要求趙局長我們要添購反撞車保護相關的這些工作人員執勤的員警那也有請你多處理相關的避車彎就是萬一有事故的時候這些車輛或是人可以在這個避車彎來保障一個基本的安全那處理的情形請你等一下說明一下"},{"start":8413.752,"end":8435.542,"text":"接著邱顯智委員謝謝主席那第二案的部分如同剛剛這個交法委員有提到就是說這個因為你可以看到這個統計這個國道事故處理呈現了就是說這個事故建樹這個尤其是這個散落物的事件一直在增加"},{"start":8436.102,"end":8458.219,"text":"那其實我前陣子接到一個陳情就是說輪胎竟然掉落啦掉落之後呢砸中了一個音樂系的這個教授的車子那結果這個司機還是躁逃的一個狀況一直到在林口發生一直到竹南才被警方逮捕而且基本上這個非常非常危險砸中了好幾輛車子"},{"start":8460.12,"end":8481.053,"text":"那因為這個事故而傷亡人數也越來越增加了所以就這部分的話應該要實際上去處理然後去加強的去管理所以希望能夠凍結10%然後待高工局兩個月內提出一個具體改善的策略跟目標使得動之好來我們是不是請來趙局長先來說明"},{"start":8483.132,"end":8501.805,"text":"是各位委員首先來說明一下我先針對那個昨天事故簡單的一個說明那昨天的在國道上面的話我們所有的一個假日的部分是完全是禁止施工除非是在路外的比如說橋下的維護這些是可以但是在路上的部分是完全是國道是禁止"},{"start":8502.225,"end":8503.466,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":8529.429,"end":8530.65,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":8552.026,"end":8580.234,"text":"那在那個我們的一個程序上的話一般的管線單位我們要進場來施工他必須要事先提他的一個申請計畫那他會在要進場的前一天他必須還要再通報一次交通中心確認說隔天要進場施工那確認要進場施工的時候我們會把這個訊息交通中心公務段還有公警我們這三方面的一個訊息都會都會來知道就是說我們哪個地方有施工"},{"start":8580.894,"end":8582.074,"text":"一、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度四、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":8603.742,"end":8605.123,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":8629.457,"end":8632.479,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算"},{"start":8649.733,"end":8651.554,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8672.541,"end":8673.362,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":8694.305,"end":8709.371,"text":"重車的影響雖然交通量佔11%但是重車的事故部分A1事故就佔了35%所以在這裡面我們跟國道公警的部分也是在加強重車的管理這裡面也有包括公路局也有進來就是說我們在路檢聯機的部分輪胎也是列為路檢聯機的一個重點也有發現這個部分就是在加強舉例"},{"start":8717.174,"end":8718.195,"text":"四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8744.798,"end":8752.683,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份"},{"start":8768.933,"end":8769.173,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":8788.016,"end":8789.618,"text":"四、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算"},{"start":8809.677,"end":8811.038,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":8834.287,"end":8852.433,"text":"我覺得國道事故處理費是一個重要的經費發生事故或者是相關的車輛的這種物品的掉落造成嚴重的車禍或者是造成嚴重的塞車這個都必須要去盡快的處理了恢復道路的安全跟暢通"},{"start":8853.633,"end":8874.762,"text":"那這個部分我是希望各位同仁就不要刪除那最主要的我想委員最在意的是說為什麼國道事故越來越多是我們的號誌不清還是標示不明或是我們相關的智慧告警系統沒有提供安全的一個路況"},{"start":8875.962,"end":8876.763,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":8900.626,"end":8903.207,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":8922.748,"end":8923.988,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":8940.633,"end":8941.594,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":8961.624,"end":8963.065,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":8977.316,"end":9005.014,"text":"現在造成緩撞車那麼多起的這樣的一個事故這個要去檢討改善在相關的科技或是相關的標示要更清楚你除了緩撞車在那邊你在前面是不是也有相關的一些警告的設施或者是其他的這種可以處理的讓駕駛可以提前就更更警示而不是到那邊才知道有緩撞車你們認為這樣會比較安全但是他就撞到了"},{"start":9006.084,"end":9008.525,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":9020.868,"end":9022.069,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":9044.705,"end":9047.706,"text":"我們先請邱顯智委員等一下再請交通部同意來回答"},{"start":9073.486,"end":9093.799,"text":"如同幾位委員講的這個國道事故的案件真的是非常可怕那你看到這個應該是昨天的新聞在這個國道3號苗栗的這個路段的時候臺電的這個電纜竟然掉到國道上面結果造成了一死這麼多傷的這個慘劇"},{"start":9096.181,"end":9097.803,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":9117.264,"end":9142.581,"text":"這說實在的我基本上是覺得說連這樣的事故都發生這是不應該的事情啦這個這樣而死亡的人也很無辜捏是很無辜的所以就這個部分的話到底要如何去檢討然後積極的去減低這個國道事故啦這個真的是要真的要放在心上這非常重要的這種速度這麼快一出事的話就是出人命了"},{"start":9143.82,"end":9159.006,"text":"對阿所以我看到這個預算說明裡面確實阿我們這一筆維護成本裡面是在國道沿線、橋樑邊坡路面、隧道及附屬設施、鹿茸景觀、交通安全設施等後面這個交通安全設施等這個"},{"start":9160.667,"end":9161.788,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":9183.963,"end":9208.998,"text":"我想剛才捷委員談得對就是說在過去鐵路或是像臺中捷運林軌工程那這一次是在高速公高速國善上面的也算是一個林路的工程就是那個電纜要跨我是覺得這樣就是說第一個在過去的第一頁這些都是沒有經過許可跟這個通報但是我覺得我們的分局"},{"start":9209.918,"end":9210.858,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":9229.325,"end":9232.207,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。三、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算"},{"start":9246.536,"end":9247.757,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":9274.949,"end":9283.497,"text":"那同樣的道理我們國道也應該要有這樣子的一個監測預防的一個措施跟功能我們要聽的是這個啦局長"},{"start":9284.78,"end":9305.936,"text":"跟委員報告就是說如果是說屬於那個建築物或是那個整個一個邊坡開發或是這些的話我們大概每定期的巡檢的部分我們都可以都可以知道就是說這個部分我們都可以可以來預防你們定期的巡檢每天都會有人在巡檢就是說整個路況的部分那每天如果有人在巡檢什麼剛剛說那個台電在做電力線的工作你們沒有巡到"},{"start":9306.476,"end":9307.516,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":9335.486,"end":9336.708,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":9347.933,"end":9350.216,"text":"關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算"},{"start":9368.303,"end":9389.742,"text":"我們現在能夠承諾就是說我們在事故處理的時間會在就是說維持...不是啊局長我跟李委員跟林委員在講的剛剛的重點你怎麼都沒有承諾也沒有回應呢你不能只是說每日巡檢那每日巡檢你是早上八點六點巡檢還是晚上八點十幾點巡檢你不能只有每日巡檢來李委員"},{"start":9392.749,"end":9409.595,"text":"這相關國道事故必須是整體的一個檢討啦剛才我也提到不管是我們相關的標示、號誌、相關的智慧的顯示系統等等以及相關的這一些整體的一個檢討必須要做出來"},{"start":9411.935,"end":9434.517,"text":"這才是去降低事故的一個最主要的一個做法那第二是有關於我要請教趙局長相關的高壓電塔會橫跨我們的高速公路或是臨近我們的高速公路雖然沒有橫跨但是就在我們的旁邊這樣到底有多少個"},{"start":9435.718,"end":9461.598,"text":"因為有時候它並不是因為施工會造成這些電纜的脫落有時候強風或是其他的因素這個到底有幾個有沒有做相關的這些防範跟檢討措施不一定施工才會出問題啦有時候電纜、電線相關的其他的氣候的這些因素會造成這種電纜的脫落那都很嚴重的,國際公路理想用"},{"start":9464.72,"end":9482.218,"text":"一條線都來,那是很大的一個電纜跟委員報告就是說我們在這個整個事故的防治部分我們就是說A1的部分我們會來讓它減少但是那個A3的部分那種財損有時候小碰撞是難免"},{"start":9482.758,"end":9484.4,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":9509.922,"end":9529.088,"text":"有100處是橫跨高速公路的這種高壓電塔所牽連的這些電纜我們會來跟台電來跟他協調防患的措施必須要做好基本上他跨過去的幾乎是高壓電高壓電的耐受力應該是比較足夠但是我們還是要求他來做一個確保"},{"start":9529.788,"end":9550.948,"text":"以防萬一啊,你要有一個預防機制跟防範跟還有那個緊急措施啊主席,因為我看這個高工局的回覆是說他這個不是在國道入權範圍內嘛所以他也不需要通報他有跨過,他實際上已經跨過國道了是啊"},{"start":9552.89,"end":9571.449,"text":"所以你說你要檢討法規所定的這個施工需申請範圍除了入權範圍內也臨近周邊的地點也應該一併納入那個是媒體寫的我們這個部分他已經跨過國道他一定要依法要申請所以他一定要申請但是他卻沒申請哇賽那這個很嚴重啊那你的處罰我看這個處罰是三萬到"},{"start":9575.393,"end":9578.055,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":9603.889,"end":9607.572,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算二、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算"},{"start":9627.403,"end":9646.977,"text":"那這個應該也要去檢討說其他的工程有沒有類似這樣的狀況那你要有個對策針對其他的這個會去干擾到你的這個國道的這個會發生潛在危險的這個這個國營事業或是這些公司那是不是能夠確實的遵守安全的規定"},{"start":9647.637,"end":9648.498,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":9676.338,"end":9678.079,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":9696.026,"end":9697.908,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9715.026,"end":9717.767,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":9750.023,"end":9772.352,"text":"第9案的狀況也是說從這個審計部111年度的這個審核報告也認為說高工局針對這個催收成效欠佳而且預欠金額持續攀升的這個狀況那我們為了要促使高工局積極去解決這個問題那希望凍結這個"},{"start":9775.533,"end":9785.23,"text":"老屋成本向下管理成本10%那代工局兩個月內提出這個成效跟檢討的改善方案之後,使得動之。"},{"start":9788.961,"end":9812.9,"text":"國道要不要先局長說明一下跟委員報告說部分我們這幾年來講確實有在努力那確實它是有一些降低了那移送那個強制執行的部分都已經有到位剩下就是去年的部分還沒有以外還沒到華定期以外其他我們都已經有依法來做移送那是不是建議邱委員這邊能夠同意我們就說這個方案能夠在提書面報告就加四個字就好"},{"start":9815.757,"end":9839.244,"text":"第9案就凍結十分之一提書面報告後時的通知第10案魯明哲委員不在現場不在現場我們就先不予處理第11到第13案有電費有劉兆豪委員、林俊憲委員、李坤哲委員、林俊憲委員"},{"start":9841.124,"end":9843.625,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":9867.774,"end":9874.778,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":9896.721,"end":9918.727,"text":"好那李崑澤第13案不予處理那我們是不是請來說明一下剛剛林委員的林委員所提的部分我們也是會來遵照辦理那我們事實上來講說我們油電費的部分油電費的部分的話它分為油電的不是我們是講是說那個無紙化的部分那油費的部分我們是比去年已經少編了174萬那電費是"},{"start":9921.947,"end":9923.028,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9946.542,"end":9948.683,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":9973.536,"end":9975.197,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":10000.43,"end":10027.247,"text":"那剛剛局長說的那個無止化我看你第十四月本期提的這個材料用品費你就自打嘴巴了你明年那個公文就是那個材料用品費裡面這個預算又增加而且增加很多你明年度比今年增加了明年度比去年的決算數增加14%同時你明年度預算比今年也是不減反增了"},{"start":10028.047,"end":10028.709,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":10033.96,"end":10062.265,"text":"來你趕快說明一下來局長跟我們報告我們材料及用品費的部分他有幾個部分他就主要是公屋段的一個那個辦公所需的費用另外一個就是公屋車用油的部分那我們建議委員那個因為我們都在在節省的部分都節省在比較多的是公屋車用油的部分那因為在國道的一個巡檢的時候我們最需要的是郵費的部分希望委員給我們支持那給我們比較有大的彈性那因為這個郵價的部分是每年是都在變動的那給我們有一個彈性是不是建議說不要刪"},{"start":10064.491,"end":10091.794,"text":"軍縣委員這個確實是基層公務段的所需辦公所需啦你來這裡攬東攬西你攬一塊地又不是只有全部郵費他基層公務段本來他辦公所需的部分基層的費用他那個多有需要啦好啦軍縣委員不堅持啦我們支持這一筆預算預算照列來第15萬來請李坤哲委員"},{"start":10093.582,"end":10096.223,"text":"四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10115.256,"end":10136.676,"text":"那回溯票的這種回收只會日益減少了其實很多年輕人都不知道有回溯票的這種那現在我請教你們在今年大概回收花了多少錢"},{"start":10137.779,"end":10141.401,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":10157.811,"end":10159.613,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":10178.434,"end":10179.395,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":10194.83,"end":10197.531,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":10212.669,"end":10239.69,"text":"到今年為止高層局的重大工程13件裡面有9件13件是工程會列管的在工程會列管的13件裡面有9件主要都是發生流廢標的狀況平均每一件都是流廢標4次含變更設計高達71次其中有一案它的變更設計竟然爆了8次"},{"start":10240.939,"end":10243,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":10269.346,"end":10271.927,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":10298.74,"end":10299.36,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":10323.294,"end":10325.215,"text":"陳淑玉議員第19案針對固定資產建設改良擴充181億8744萬2千元預算"},{"start":10338.78,"end":10339.621,"text":"主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。四、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":10354.714,"end":10357.755,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。三、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算"},{"start":10380.703,"end":10389.838,"text":"好,我們請李坤哲委員好,第18案我們這個管理基金有關於固定資產的建設改良這種擴充計畫預算其實變得蠻多的181億"},{"start":10395.098,"end":10419.763,"text":"其中包括專案的計畫以及一般建築及設備的一些計畫但是部分的計畫執行不如預期有嚴重的落差預算編列最基本要符合實際預算執行的狀況所以相關的固定資產建設改良擴充計畫我認為預算應該3.1億元以上"},{"start":10426.653,"end":10443.566,"text":"好那我們先請局長來說明是跟委員報告那事實上來講就是說高雄局在五股跟林口這兩個案子一個招標留標的一個經驗裡面我們大概就學到一些那個那個怎樣來做一些評估那所以對這裡面來講是說我們招標留標的部分我們大概都有預估一些時程"},{"start":10444.286,"end":10448.628,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。三、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算"},{"start":10463.016,"end":10464.277,"text":"公司營業預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":10482.084,"end":10485.087,"text":"北外環北外環北外環北外環北外環北外環北外環北外環北外環北外環北外環北外環北外環北外環北外環北外環北外環"},{"start":10507.583,"end":10509.223,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":10537.112,"end":10538.184,"text":"那這個這個希望是說"},{"start":10539.591,"end":10566.995,"text":"供期沒有問題我們到目前來講那個那個我們在所有的那個院列館的一個計劃裡面我們都是按照都如期完工的話比如今年的那個國式國式豐潭道或國二甲或是連體的那個矽脂交道或是那些明年要完成的國一情節台氣是我們都可以按照原來的一個期程來如期的完成都是在符合院列館的一個期程目前來講進度上進度上雖然有疫情的影響但是都說都可以來如期完成"},{"start":10568.809,"end":10587.461,"text":"來,各位委員,那局長的說明如果大家可以理解、接受,是不是我來建議我們這個案子是不是就是凍結十分之一書面報告後,使得凍滯,好不好?一般八十幾年耶,一塊錢不讓我們刪喔?本局長"},{"start":10588.462,"end":10591.124,"text":"第16到20案編案處理預算數凍結十分之一順便報告後使得凍資"},{"start":10617.318,"end":10617.678,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":10636.892,"end":10665.53,"text":"第二十二案這後面是不是文字調整一下最後一行改113以後的文字改成將各階段成果送交交通委員會好修正通過二十三案二十三案是不是改書面報告好修正通過二十四案二十四案遵照辦理遵照通過二十五案二十五案這半年為期是不是改成半年內好修正通過"},{"start":10668.397,"end":10685.589,"text":"二十六案遵照辦理遭案通過二十七案二十七案是改書面報告好修正通過二十八案二十八案遵照辦理遭案通過二十九案二十九案的話是前面那個第一行的部分112年這應該誤算啦應該是說預計113年文字修正"},{"start":10689.952,"end":10715.187,"text":"文字修正通過好來第30案第30案是遵照辦理遵照案通過31案遵照辦理遵照案通過32案遵照辦理遵照案通過好那我們國道公路建設管理基金處理完畢那高工局人員可以先行離席接著臺鐵局還是要臺鐵公司臺鐵公司好了來"},{"start":10744.412,"end":10746.934,"text":"好先讓你們換場一下"},{"start":10757.168,"end":10762.533,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10782.266,"end":10806.212,"text":"主席本期第一案的租賃收入這筆預算大概我看過去的諮詢率都非常好尤其像今年今年一些鐵道觀光也都有復甦接到10月底明日號的明日號的諮詢率都超過百分之百都達到年度的目標了"},{"start":10807.072,"end":10808.192,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":10828.659,"end":10830.24,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":10847.111,"end":10849.554,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":10865.69,"end":10872.477,"text":"本席提第四案就是有針對台鐵公司在113年度編列用人費用預算187億7630萬6千元這一案看整體的預算,人事費用佔支出的44.76%"},{"start":10884.77,"end":10886.231,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":10910.606,"end":10913.349,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":10927.637,"end":10937.603,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":10950.131,"end":10965.737,"text":"好 謝謝113年我們有關於這個暫儲包裝代理及加工費預算編列14億5360萬元那我看是比110年度的決算增加了1億5082萬那比112年度的預算去增加了1億4707萬元"},{"start":10975.7,"end":10998.443,"text":"那相關的預算比過去的預決算增加超過1億但是台鐵的公司業務跟過往並沒有明顯的差異那其實在台鐵成立公司第一年應該是給你們比較多的資源能夠去花費跟運作我也想要請教一下"},{"start":10999.104,"end":11001.066,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11016.163,"end":11038.312,"text":"這個絕大部分我們都是用外包的那現在我們基於現在外面社會這個環境我們雇員的情形所以我們的預算有給他做增加的確那這個部分還包括就是我們現在新車到位以後我們的運能也會提升"},{"start":11038.712,"end":11039.433,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11059.275,"end":11061.356,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11089.108,"end":11106.493,"text":"局長,那我們第6案跟第7案我們預算照列接著我們來討論第8到10案由李昆哲委員、林俊憲委員第8到第8我是因為我第8案對,李昆哲委員"},{"start":11107.173,"end":11119.678,"text":"那113年度有關於專業服務費編列的預算是5億3487萬元那比114年度決算增加的2億2254萬元那也比112年度的預算增加的7225萬元那考量113年度是台鐵公司成立的首年"},{"start":11134.818,"end":11151.034,"text":"我要請教為什麼要增加那麼多錢當然我們希望預算還是要控制但是又希望你們的服務你們的安全能夠提升那這個部分你們這個專業服務費編列了5億3487萬元"},{"start":11155.999,"end":11163.227,"text":"那最主要的內容是什麼呢說明一下我是建議3.1千萬啦看杜局長怎麼說明"},{"start":11164.107,"end":11185.525,"text":"好 那接著請林俊憲委員等一下再請局長同意說明謝謝本期第10案這是我們台鐵明年的行公務維持費其實這主要就是保全費用啦有編額5800我今天是關心保全費用編額5800多萬那比今年還要多啦"},{"start":11188.728,"end":11193.342,"text":"但是你今年這筆保全費用到10月底只用了50%"},{"start":11194.844,"end":11196.985,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11220.999,"end":11222.16,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11239.926,"end":11254.664,"text":"好,那我們先請杜局長說謝謝兩位委員首先是李坤澤委員我們這個項目主要是平交道保全但是它另外也包含我們邊坡、隧道"},{"start":11255.285,"end":11256.206,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11273.755,"end":11291.497,"text":"那剛剛這個林俊憲林委員他提到的包括我們場站的安全這個我們都有做這個重新的檢討那這個我們也是需要這一部分有保全的一個增資來做一個處理"},{"start":11292.959,"end":11309.655,"text":"相關剛剛講到的這個塗鴉事實上我們經過這一次這是我們大概近年來唯一的一次我們有經歷了以後我們有做一些檢討未來我們會在保全的這個部分來做一個防範"},{"start":11312.199,"end":11340.664,"text":"那各位委員還有其他的意見嗎?那如果杜局長我是不是可以吭聲委員這一個部分因為市社評價到還有隧道還有這個邊坡一些委託調查的安全還有保全有關安全那我就不刪除委員沒有堅持要刪減所以就預算我們會支持預算照列好不好接著來處理第11到17案"},{"start":11343.106,"end":11355.876,"text":"邱顯智委員謝謝主席那第11案主要當然就是說這個台鐵公司劃後那這個人力缺口的問題那這個到底要怎麼解決的問題"},{"start":11359.104,"end":11359.424,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11377.594,"end":11381.355,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11399.999,"end":11402.402,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11422.961,"end":11424.722,"text":"主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。四、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。"},{"start":11447.737,"end":11450.839,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11477.074,"end":11479.635,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11499.299,"end":11502.921,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11524.753,"end":11551.761,"text":"台鐵自從更換那個新型的你自己寫的新型自動售票機卻經常發生問題了尤其你那個自動售票機要用人工結帳你是去哪裡買然後呢結帳的時間一台機器要半小時而且結帳以後就不能再使用不能再開放使用否則你第二天還要再結第二次帳"},{"start":11553.575,"end":11560.197,"text":"四、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。五、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。六、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。"},{"start":11577.372,"end":11578.553,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11589.94,"end":11591.461,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11609.428,"end":11610.129,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11625.709,"end":11631.293,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11656.081,"end":11656.942,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11681.986,"end":11685.008,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11709.087,"end":11728.101,"text":"好,謝謝主席那本席提的是第15案跟第16案也是針對戰務費用修理保養與保固費那在明年度編列了兩億六千三百九十五萬六千元的這筆預算數那本席這兩案我就並案那主要是針對就是有關這個台鐵列車行駛的這個霧點的狀況非常的嚴重那我們跟"},{"start":11735.126,"end":11735.686,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11760.521,"end":11761.401,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度四、繼續審查113年度五、繼續審查113年度六、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11787.907,"end":11788.788,"text":"四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11808.627,"end":11810.548,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11831.394,"end":11859.362,"text":"好 那我是不是請局長來統一說明是 謝謝各位委員那首先是邱顯智邱委員這個我們有關於人力缺口的問題我上次在這個交易會這邊已經有做報告我們有相對因應的一些措施但是這個整個我們人力的運用跟我們未來我們公司從業人員的這個薪水待遇是很有關係所以"},{"start":11860.623,"end":11869.52,"text":"這個部分我們還在努力的我們做最好的研議來跟布里來提報那至於自售機就並同剛剛我們那個"},{"start":11872.079,"end":11897.589,"text":"林俊憲林委員的一起來說明可能委員的認知有一點誤差就是我們講那個人工結帳不是說人工去一筆一筆的數一筆一筆的加總然後再來做結帳不是這裡所謂人工結帳只是我們那個錢箱掉下來的錢還有因為我們多工都有接受紙鈔還有紙鈔的這些清點"},{"start":11898.609,"end":11900.211,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11914.088,"end":11938.828,"text":"那這裡要報告一下這個這個自售機是我們跟中華電信研議的研發的其實現在我們的結帳大概一台機其實15分鐘左右沒有半小時這種情形但是但是有的車站他的台數比較多比如說他有4台或6台那你同時要來做結帳的話那他的確他就會超過15分鐘"},{"start":11940.069,"end":11968.056,"text":"那我們10點之前我們是顧及因為現在老蔣我們的運量都回來了那在10點之前也算是我們一個旅客客運的小尖峰我們不希望把這個自收機給他關起來做結賬那相對的改善也跟兩位委員報告就是我們一定會跟中華電信後面會再去研議那把這個我們現在其實是蠻好用的自動售票機"},{"start":11969.042,"end":11970.423,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":11989.858,"end":12016.004,"text":"那這個當然造成這個基層的員工等於是被強迫說要在10點後還要去做這個決戰而且剛剛就像剛剛林俊憲委員提到的你這個一步還要步半年多那他也要休息啊好 這個兩位黑委員報告這個我們會趕快找中華電信來再做優化"},{"start":12017.079,"end":12022.964,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":12045.783,"end":12055.512,"text":"公司營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業部分"},{"start":12073.507,"end":12074.848,"text":"第二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12095.55,"end":12096.691,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":12120.04,"end":12146.411,"text":"但是我們也知道因為我們是環島路網我們的準點率在某一個區段有特別需要去加強那這個有試射到我們沿線的工程還有試射到我們的排點那現在我們的策略就是盡量給它合理化那所以針對剛剛講的在特定區段特定時段的這個我們還是會努力來提升它的一個準點率"},{"start":12147.284,"end":12175.003,"text":"那再過來就是無障礙的設施那這個我想跟我們這個招標還有我們整個建造這個過程都有一些關係那這個我們未來我們會非常努力的來進行一個改善那法律面歸法律面未來實際上我們一定編組預算把這個無障礙的這個工程給他努力來完成"},{"start":12176.121,"end":12204.567,"text":"好來部長需要補充好那個針對上禮拜媒體報導那個我們新進的從業人員低薪的問題我上禮拜已經召開一個會議那就因為他們事實上還沒有送到交通部來啦我特別跟局長討論就是說也不能說太低薪以後都找不到人所以他們現在在這個整體在重新檢討中好那如果各位委員沒有堅持的話我們是來處理這一個預算"},{"start":12207.27,"end":12210.232,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":12231.553,"end":12233.476,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":12251.987,"end":12267.243,"text":"對於台鐵公司的話我們是希望說真的是對於基層勞工權益的照顧對旅客安全的一個最重要的保障以服務效率的提升所以在基本上預算不只是這一次啦"},{"start":12267.904,"end":12288.914,"text":"在過去當然才得發生了幾件讓社會非常痛心的重大意外事故但是交通委員會對於你們不管是相關的安全的提升的相關計畫買新車來提升服務效果的這些機會都是給予支持的真的是不要再傷大家的心了"},{"start":12289.614,"end":12291.796,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":12317.858,"end":12342.168,"text":"這個局長責任是很重大啦你昨天有看那個亞錦山的棒球嗎你有看徐若曦丸頭7局標10K人家就留名啦在這個棒球的這樣的一個發展過程裡面你也是要第一次上場主投台鐵公司化之後你是第一個主力投手"},{"start":12343.248,"end":12364.106,"text":"你是會被打爆呢?還是你會頑童啊?酒局啊?這個頑豐勝利啊?這個你的勞工、旅客大家都在看所以局長我們對你是有期待的你還是老台鐵啦你對相關的這些業務啦相關的狀況你很清楚"},{"start":12365.887,"end":12383.334,"text":"交通委員會在經費預算在你第一次公司的話第一年我們都會給予你支持但是對於安全我們是絕對不打折對於勞工的照顧這是最重要的資產勞工是我們台鐵公司最重要的資產"},{"start":12384.514,"end":12405.66,"text":"因為我們人力會有缺口而且如果大家對台鐵公司沒有信心這種離職率會越來越高那台鐵的新人在過去離職率也是最高的你要怎麼讓這個勞工的心情穩定對公司的這樣的一個薪資有信心而且有榮譽感"},{"start":12407.096,"end":12409.478,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":12432.074,"end":12432.735,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":12447.398,"end":12448.859,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":12478.786,"end":12499.417,"text":"第18案好,這我來報告就是我們在之後的我們的合定政府在合定的那個淨零排放路徑這個在112到115年的港銷計畫之下其實ESG對我們公司也是非常的重要"},{"start":12500.237,"end":12501.518,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":12519.967,"end":12522.588,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":12549.725,"end":12569.986,"text":"謝謝主席那19案的這個部分也是就是說今年11月297名台鐵的司機員報考這個交通事業鐵路人員升職考試那台鐵調路人以後仍然有60名的這個缺口"},{"start":12570.826,"end":12586.241,"text":"造成11月6日至7日有86班的區間車停駛13班次縮短行駛這當然影響我們的旅客勝據這也凸顯出台鐵人力缺口跟缺乏人力調度的這兩大問題"},{"start":12588.163,"end":12589.343,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":12613.777,"end":12617.239,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":12646.47,"end":12650.084,"text":"謝謝主席23案的這個部分是說因為"},{"start":12651.141,"end":12657.907,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12676.585,"end":12692.638,"text":"但是臺鐵在113年度預計的虧損仍然是高達74.92億所以面對人力缺口行車的安全跟服務升級的挑戰仍然是非常吃緊的狀況所以我們為了督促臺鐵公司徹底檢討營運計畫健全公司的體質解決成年問題希望能夠凍結業務費用10%待臺鐵三個月內提出一個有效營運"},{"start":12706.028,"end":12707.689,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12722.213,"end":12747.406,"text":"二十三案就是剛剛邱委員在講的我報告一下二十三案邱委員這邊提出的其實我們第一年我們明年改制以後的第一年我們現在編的是有74.92但是我上次在交委會有報告過這個其中有包含部分是我們一次性的一個"},{"start":12748.266,"end":12750.408,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":12775.908,"end":12787.477,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":12803.109,"end":12818.24,"text":"好,那我是會請邱委員來支持啦這一筆預算我們就不要凍結啦好不好,好那我們23到24案我們業務費用就預算照列支持來進來討論第25到26案25案也是邱委員"},{"start":12825.188,"end":12839.639,"text":"二十五萬的狀況是說在一二年的十月就是今年十月臺鐵竟然發生了這個宜蘭運物段公告暫停受理明年一月到三月的這個值班站長休假出國的替班申請"},{"start":12840.52,"end":12841.76,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":12866.529,"end":12876.114,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二十六案是針對如果我們台鐵在公司化之後呢能夠正常的營運而且是重視安全的營運我們在流財這個部分應該"},{"start":12895.103,"end":12920.209,"text":"要研擬相關的這個制度化的這個部分所以凍結10%提高流財津貼設置證照的津貼也將運物納入常態性危險津貼發放範圍所以這個部分希望能夠來落實來執行能夠讓這個人才能夠留任以上"},{"start":12925.274,"end":12952.923,"text":"來局長好的跟兩位委員報告的確這個流財對我們未來公司的經營發展也是很重要所以剛剛兩位委員提到的我們會來努力那在這邊就是是不是我對不起我要建議一下就是那個25案的這個部分是不是能夠加上那個就是提書面報告以後使得動質局長重點是啊我會處理你放心"},{"start":12955.414,"end":12955.454,"text":"謝謝召委"},{"start":12965.834,"end":12993.499,"text":"各位委員這個局長剛剛有說明對這個流財還有呢未來這個相關的津貼那在台鐵的公司化來講是非常重要的他會把他列為最重點的這個未來的政策之一那也會承諾會做是不是我們預算就支持他好不好好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝對那我們預算就照列支持來第27到29案"},{"start":13000.091,"end":13004.175,"text":"陳樹越委員不在,那我們先不予處理,來,第30到38案李坤澤委員好,我是第31案,就是有關於我們的"},{"start":13015.495,"end":13036.608,"text":"固定資產建設改良編列254億其實部長跟局長也清楚我們這個執行率部分的執行率實在是太低了發包也不是很順利實際的執行狀況是不如預期的所以我是認為應該3.1億比較符合實際的狀況以上"},{"start":13041.994,"end":13043.114,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":13062.24,"end":13064.361,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":13079.428,"end":13084.231,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":13107.515,"end":13127.518,"text":"這個要懇請委員因為這裡面包括我們6年計劃軌道的還有我們購車還有電路的智慧化還有我們的資訊平台等等這些資本支出的一個改良擴充的這些經費對我們未來的安全是很重要的"},{"start":13128.291,"end":13155.47,"text":"那剛剛李昆哲委員有提到我們在執行面那各位手頭上的資料應該是在年終的時候對於前一年執行率那實際上我們可以去看一下其實我們在111年以前的達成率我們都是有達標那今年的確今年因為外面的招標是有一些是比較困難一點但是我們今年我們預估我們還是會"},{"start":13158.012,"end":13159.053,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":13181.596,"end":13188.242,"text":"好,謝謝啊,謝謝委員好,接著我們來處理那個決議案,主決議來,第39案好,39案就遵辦,遵照辦理好,章案通過,來第40案好,40案遵照辦理好,章案通過,第41案41案遵照辦理"},{"start":13210.848,"end":13225.983,"text":"預算現在已經到後面的這個部分不過我還是有兩項的小建議有關於廁所的改建廁所的改建我們跟何清淳委員我們幫很多的國中小的廁所改建"},{"start":13226.664,"end":13231.525,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":13255.811,"end":13270.951,"text":"那我們是不是先從一、兩站來做處理整個變數的老舊廁所你看那邊它就是不通風看起來就是不乾淨嘛一、兩站先來做處理啦接下來再看要不要處理二、兩站的部分"},{"start":13271.485,"end":13276.268,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。三、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。二、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。"},{"start":13299.882,"end":13301.403,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":13314.865,"end":13331.313,"text":"以上我們先做處理這個我們回去會馬上來做規劃那因為幾個特等站這個應該是都需要維護好就好那一等站的確有一些一等站我們會考量他的環境來立即來做計劃"},{"start":13332.892,"end":13333.993,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13358.309,"end":13358.609,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":13376.514,"end":13377.215,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":13394.75,"end":13396.031,"text":"三、繼續審查113年度三、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":13408.427,"end":13410.328,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13431.196,"end":13433.439,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":13455.746,"end":13460.188,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":13480.694,"end":13484.435,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":13506.749,"end":13509.81,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":13534.141,"end":13535.724,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":13577.376,"end":13584.239,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":13606.684,"end":13634.806,"text":"好來局長說明一下好跟委員報告這個部分有關文資的部分基本上我們完全按照文資法令的相關規定來辦理但是有關文資產的這些相關經營其實是由他相關的文化主管機關來辦理我想這邊不是我們建議做一個文字上的修正把有關文化資產保存經營的計劃這個部分可以做一個刪除然後改成書面報告以上"},{"start":13635.787,"end":13658.508,"text":"應該這樣講 局長來 焦華委員因為邱顯智委員不在現場那你有代表他來提案說明喔那是不是我們來支持這個預算那書面報告針對邱委員的建議呢他提具體的書面報告後 使得動之可以 可以啦 好不好其實我們也沒有凍結也不用再動之啦就書面報告啦 好不好好 那預算照列"},{"start":13661.038,"end":13666.081,"text":"第三、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。六、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。七、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":13700.196,"end":13709.76,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":13727.694,"end":13752.424,"text":"那鐵道監理是鐵道局的一個重要的業務但是包括台鐵、高鐵相關的行車的事故或者是事件的發生次數其實並沒有明顯的一個改善鐵道局作為監理單位責無旁貸應該加強督促促進鐵道安全所以鐵道發展基金的業務費用編列預算6億5411萬元"},{"start":13757.487,"end":13768.342,"text":"應該給予凍結一千萬最主要是要你們在一個月內提出如何降低台鐵高鐵的行車事故提出改善的說明報告後,使得送資"},{"start":13771.906,"end":13798.234,"text":"好 那本席我提出第五案那我提的案子是只有著動那最重要是在於這個我們台中海線地區的這個單軌區間那常常需要會車或等車那列車行駛時間拉長那班次沒有辦法密集那區間車可能大概都只有大概半個小時以上才有一半那有時候離峰時段要耗時1.5小時以上"},{"start":13800.435,"end":13802.356,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":13814.066,"end":13839.676,"text":"謝謝兩位委員的指導有關這個鐵路的相關的事故事件的監理鐵道局責無旁貸那我們現在有採行兩個主要的措施第一個是國家鐵路安全計畫我們會來監控相關鐵路機構的三層上面的安全指標後續我們會按照這樣的一個管理模式繼續來加強第二個是有關檢查的部分在檢查員導入之後我們明年開始會針對各個鐵路機構的安全關鍵項目"},{"start":13843.377,"end":13846.599,"text":"主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。四、繼續審查113年度中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。"},{"start":13862.41,"end":13889.164,"text":"臺中市政府交通局跟葉局長當面坐下來談有兩個案子第一個就是臺中海線的高架跟雙軌化第二個是山線的大慶到烏日的高架這兩個路段現在由於可行性研究的相關報告是在臺中市政府的這個部分我們當天的討論是交通局同意在兩個禮拜內也就是到今天已經一個禮拜會把這個修正報告送到交通部來"},{"start":13889.804,"end":13914.481,"text":"他打算有修正的一個方向嗎?其實這兩個案子上次跟委員報告過大家都沒有就內容有意見是主要是程序上因為他把那個假後線這個微笑線的部分三個變成一個計劃所以就沒有辦法去做核定跟處理那現在我們是地方有地方的考量說我要割捨掉一個好像在地方的考量上面的覺得相對困難"},{"start":13915.282,"end":13915.882,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":13930.835,"end":13956.927,"text":"我想那個臺中的三手線就是大清物資是最沒問題的當時都沒有問題海線的雙軌也是沒有問題所以我們現在就是說也跟臺中市政府特別談這沒有問題趕快不要再跟甲後線纏在一起就是分一個階段性不要說割捨啦我們從階段性比如大清物資跟海線的雙軌這個部分他送上來先優先我們會支持趕快讓他進去好 謝謝"},{"start":13959.148,"end":13981.793,"text":"好,那我預算都支持來,各位委員還有沒有其他問題沒有,我們現在還在3到6好,3到6沒有問題那坤澤委員沒有問題那我們是不是就預算支持好,預算招列,好那接著處理7到11案"},{"start":13984.607,"end":14012.542,"text":"來 陳五好 謝謝主席我在前幾天有晚上接到一個緊急陳請就是那個南鐵地下化就是說好像很多個地方都在出水然後還有沉那個下陷的情形蠻嚴重希望那個部長注意一下這個事情的嚴重性那鐵道局的監理應該算路證私嘛 對不對所以也拜託一下南鐵地下化工程真的真的蠻多那個地下水的問題"},{"start":14013.802,"end":14034.563,"text":"第7案是針對111年度有起聘顧鐵道檢察員113年度有檢查作業原則要採主題式檢查所以相關的監理這些執行的情形是不是有落實"},{"start":14036.565,"end":14058.581,"text":"要鐵道局兩個月內就各種檢查結果改善情形追蹤改善成效評估報告提出具體做法使得動之那剛剛提到的南鐵地下化相關的文物的保存還有現在的出水城鄉情形也請那個交通部跟鐵道局這邊就是再跟本席來說明"},{"start":14059.622,"end":14085.494,"text":"好 那本席提第8案喔第8案其實剛剛江華委員提到以相同的問題喔就是說我們行政院同意呢我們鐵道局可以徵聘42名的鐵道檢察員喔那我們的基金裡面也已經有編列用人費用但是聽說啦這是我拿到的數字啦到112年8月底的統計實際上禁用的人力只有30個人"},{"start":14086.334,"end":14092.118,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。六、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":14117.464,"end":14134.693,"text":"來 局長請說明好 謝謝梁委員指導有關剛剛陳委員所提到的南鐵地下游泳水這部分這個訊息可能我要會後做一個確實了解再跟委員做報告但基本上現在我們南鐵所有的工程都已經下地了理論上應該地面上的工程是比較"},{"start":14135.473,"end":14138.796,"text":"兩、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":14153.49,"end":14154.791,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":14178.385,"end":14199.035,"text":"檢察員的監理成效我們未來會明確的把他的作業的內容來跟委員會這邊提出書面的報告其實我們在今年所執行的7項的這一些不定期的檢查當中都有非常多很具體的一些缺失事項的發現我們也會來落實要求相關的鐵路機構做改善"},{"start":14200.235,"end":14219.89,"text":"那這樣子的這個鐵道檢查員的一個專業背景也要有所規範嗎?我們在招募的時候就有非常嚴格的要求他必須要有五年、七年甚至更多年期上面的這些實際上的鐵道從業的相關工作經驗才可以來應徵我們的檢查員"},{"start":14222.421,"end":14226.043,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":14252.472,"end":14253.512,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":14272.958,"end":14276.419,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。六、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。七、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":14299.963,"end":14304.466,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度二、繼續審查113年度"},{"start":14341.596,"end":14368.028,"text":"好,我們協商完成做以下宣告今日協商結論免於宣讀授權議事人員整理作為決議列入紀錄那委員要求提供之書面報告及相關資料請交通部及相關機關盡速以書面答覆如果有委員對提案要補簽列入紀錄並刊登公報針對本日會議做如下決議一本日預算"},{"start":14369.396,"end":14390.826,"text":"審查結果照列或照協商結論通過。二、本日通過之決議文字授權主席及議事人員調整。三、113年度中華郵政台鐵公司國道基金、鐵道基金、台鐵債務管理基金等附屬單位預算均審查完畢。"},{"start":14392.066,"end":14405.42,"text":"是本會主審113年度中央政府總預算案關於附屬單位預算營業及非營業部分均已審查完畢並決議如下一、離境審查報告含附財政委員會提報院會討論二、院會討論前需交由黨團協商三、"},{"start":14414.128,"end":14429.355,"text":"原會討論時由本會和召集委員新淳及曾召集委員學生出席說明本次會議亦是陸授權主席和定後確定本次會議議程均已處理完畢。散會。謝謝大家"},{"start":14447.629,"end":14447.69,"text":"二、繼續審查"}]}},{"id":"15328","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15328","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373da9f2818acb4c29c5819ba3698dbd896e46d53a332764a535cbe25a319cdca0d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。\n二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。\n三、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案。）","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-04","start_time":"2023-12-04T08:30:59+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-10-8-22-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-04T10:55:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":8641,"委員發言時間":"08:30:59 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六席委員游易蘭委員等4人"},{"start":2029.296,"end":2053.108,"text":"人員11月29日核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽稅同有關人員行政法人國家原子能科技研究院董事長張欣稅同有關人員行政院主席總署公務域申訴專門委員黃子涵行政院主席總署基金域申訴科長周明正11月30日國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳俊英稅同有關人員行政法人國家災害防救科技中心董事長陳中全"},{"start":2054.048,"end":2080.26,"text":"行政法人國家太空中心董事長吳政忠、行政院主席總署公務預算處專門委員李玉柔、行政院主席總署基金預算處科長柳亦阿斐、主席政交局委員立文。11月29日報告事項,宣讀上次議事錄,決定議事錄確定。討論事項,因審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案,為審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管,"},{"start":2080.82,"end":2087.783,"text":"能科技研究院預算案本日議程由委員張大萬謙等12人提出質詢均經核能安全委員會主任委員程東陽及相關人員及答覆說明並由委員萬美玲等二人提出書面質詢決議。議報告及詢討完畢。二委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀律並刊登公報。"},{"start":2108.013,"end":2110.136,"text":"三、繼續審查112年度及113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。"},{"start":2126.372,"end":2147.399,"text":"囊科技研究院預算案相關提案其餘12月1日中午12時前提出並定期繼續審查11月30日討論事項一、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案二、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關其任任主管行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":2148.259,"end":2165.365,"text":"第三、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會主管科學研區管理局追基金附屬單位預算案。四、繼續審查113年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案。五、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家太空中心預算案。"},{"start":2166.265,"end":2192.931,"text":"決議一、一來三年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及基金委員會及所屬單位預算案審查完畢。審查結果如下稅務部分第二款罰款及賠償收入國家科學及基金委員會照列新竹科學園區管理局照列中部科學園區管理局照列南部科學園區管理局照列第三款歸費收入新竹科學園區管理局照列中部科學園區管理局照列南部科學園區管理局照列第四款財產收入國家科學及基金委員會照列"},{"start":2193.431,"end":2212.374,"text":"新竹科學人區管理局照列中部科學人區管理局照列南部科學人區管理局照列第7款其他收入國家科學及技術委員會照列新竹科學人區管理局照列中部科學人區管理局照列南部科學人區管理局照列說出部分第22款國家科學及技術委員會主管第一項"},{"start":2213.315,"end":2220.602,"text":"國家科學及技術委員會原例581億6453萬1千元除第六目非營業特種基金第一階國家科學技術發展基金430億3187萬6千元佔照列四、所屬非營業特種基金審議確定再行調整外期與均照列"},{"start":2229.751,"end":2258.403,"text":"本項通貨決議六十九項第二項新竹科學人群管理局八一八千二百一四萬四千元招列本項通貨決議九項第三項中度科學人群管理局五一零六百零四萬二千元招列本項通貨決議八項第四項南部科學人群管理局元略十一億一千三百零四萬二千元除第二目非營業特種基金第一階科學人群管理局作業基金三一零二百八十九萬四千元佔招列四、所屬非營業特種基金審議確定任意調整外企業均招列"},{"start":2258.903,"end":2281.154,"text":"本項通過決議九項。二、113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院主管行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案審查單據。審查結果如下。一、又計劃因依據基金來源與用途審查結果隨同調整。二、基金來源用途及局處。一、基金來源照列。二、基金用途照列。三、本局短處照列。"},{"start":2282.855,"end":2286.581,"text":"3、截角工處無劣數4、補辦運送無劣數5、固定資產建設改良擴充無劣數6、通過決議5項"},{"start":2291.696,"end":2315.103,"text":"313年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學階級處委員會主管科學領域管理局作業基金附屬單位預算案審查完全審查結果如下。一、業務計劃一、依據業務收支轉投資固定資產建設改良擴充及資金應用等項目審查結果,隨同調整。二、業務收支一、業務總收入照列二、業務總支出照列三、本期聲明照列"},{"start":2315.743,"end":2329.636,"text":"三、截了公庫淨額5連署四、轉投資計劃5連署五、供應資產建設改良庫中照列六、國家增波基金額照列七、補辦預算5連署八、通過決議一項四、113年度行政法人國家"},{"start":2330.817,"end":2350.474,"text":"防舊科技中心預算案審查完畢。一、繼續審查報告提報願有,不須交予討論、協商。願意討論時,由政交期委員立文補充說明,審查結果如下。國家災害防舊科技中心103年度預算書案因業務計劃因應據業務收支固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等項之審查結果,隨同調整。"},{"start":2351.915,"end":2377.64,"text":"2、業務收支1、業務總收入照列2、業務總支出照列3、本期短處照列3、截了公募淨額無列數4、轉投資計劃無列數5、固定資產建設改良擴充照列6、資產經運用依據業務收支及固定資產建設改良擴充等項之審查結果隨同調整。期通過決議一項。5、112年度及113年度行政法人國家太空中心預算案審查完畢。"},{"start":2378.4,"end":2394.451,"text":"您均審查報告提報院會,不需交由黨團協商。院會討論時,由政召集委員立文補充說明,審查結果如下。國家太空中心112年度預算書案依依業務計劃,依依據業務措施固定資產建設改良庫中及資金運用等項之審查結果,隨同調整。"},{"start":2395.812,"end":2411.745,"text":"2、業務收支1、業務總收入造劣2、業務總支出造劣3、本期短處造劣3、固定資產建設改良庫中無劣數4、國庫增波基金有無劣數5、資金運用因依據業務收支及固定資產建設改良庫中等項目審查結果隨同調整。"},{"start":2413.787,"end":2429.515,"text":"國家化工中心113年度預算書案一、業務計劃一、一區業務收支固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等項之審查結果隨同調整二、業務收支一、業務總收入照列二、業務總支出照列三、短期短處"},{"start":2431.196,"end":2444.682,"text":"趙烈3、固定資產建設改良庫中無劣數4、國庫增多基金額無劣數5、資金運用因依據業務授之及固定資產建設改良庫中等項之審查結果,隨同調整有、透過決議項"},{"start":2445.942,"end":2469.174,"text":"六、對於委員質詢要求停用相關資料或未集囊附部分及相關機關技術以書面答覆。七、在不影響文藝前提下授權議事人員因113年度中央政府總預算案審查報告與黨團協商制範例整理。八、113年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":2469.734,"end":2488.65,"text":"科學延續管理局作為基金附屬單位預算案行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案緊112年度緊113年度行政法人國家控制中心預算案全部審查完略修律完畢請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":2490.051,"end":2490.931,"text":"科技研究院預算案。"},{"start":2518.638,"end":2545.341,"text":"首先介紹在場委員先介紹陳培宇委員陳秀寶委員張亮萬堅委員林怡瑾委員其次介紹現場官員與會官員核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽核能安全委員會副主任委員國家原子能科技研究院董事長張欣"},{"start":2547.523,"end":2558.472,"text":"行政院主計總處公務預算處專門科員黃小娟行政院主計總處基金預算處科長周明正介紹黃國書委員"},{"start":2566.035,"end":2590.845,"text":"好,現在進行預算案審查請議事人員宣讀預算數及提案內容核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案即68案核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案即11案行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案即1案並進行討論與協商討論時如有新增或修正文字之主決議請議事人員一併宣讀"},{"start":2598.905,"end":2618.551,"text":"第三年度中央政府總預算案核能安全委員會及所屬收支部分稅務部分第二款保款及補償收入核能安全委員會及所屬181萬元第三款對費收入核能安全委員會及所屬14025萬5千元第四款財產收入2萬元第七款其他收入核能安全委員會及所屬899000元"},{"start":2620.251,"end":2649.129,"text":"第二稅出部分第二款行政院主管核能安全委員會及所屬31,161萬8千元一般行政611,220萬9千元原子能管理發展業務233,866萬1千元一般建築及設備五列署第一備金200萬元環境輻射偵測好我們現在來審核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案首先是核安會的稅出那麼第一案跟第二案"},{"start":2650.249,"end":2676.027,"text":"張亮萬堅委員請發言我想是這個道路地區的旅費當然因為前110、111到今年8月為止都是諮詢都零都沒有這個那你們當然有說明說大概我們很多委員在關心就是說因為中國的沿海有很多的這個核能發電那不排除未來一年有前往中國的需求不排除那這個部分"},{"start":2676.927,"end":2697.723,"text":"當然如果有溝通是最好啦齁那這個部分我當然也可以這個必凍結啦齁那也希望說這個真的能夠有機會能夠了解跟溝通齁那第二個就是有關那個國外旅費的部分因為我當時拿到的資料到8月只有43齁那你們說其實到11月底已經達到81.66了齁所以我這個凍結案當然我可以不凍結齁謝謝沒有齁好那"},{"start":2709.679,"end":2713.367,"text":"第一幕一般行政第三案到第七案"},{"start":2715.488,"end":2743.37,"text":"有委員要發言的嗎?黃國書委員我們核安會改制了那明年度的預算30億那這個30億裡頭其中有七成也就是21億其實是要補助給我們的國原院也就是說我們七成的錢其實是補助另外一個單位他們的營運不管沒關係"},{"start":2745.692,"end":2759.59,"text":"我們來檢討一下那核安會那剩下來的多少錢要做什麼剩下來的經費我們來檢討看看照理講我們現在改制之後那我們的人員增加"},{"start":2761.107,"end":2782.235,"text":"還是增加那增加之後所需的人事費4億照112年的法定預算其實是增加的所以這個部分可不可以請我們核安會這邊來說明也就是說我們到底現在還有多少業務要推動"},{"start":2783.413,"end":2801.172,"text":"然後我們的這麼多的經費占那麼高的比例其實不是另外一個單位那剩下來的經費我們又聘了非常多的人那這些人對於我們現在的業務的推動實際的作為是什麼我想這個可能要請我們核安會來說明一下好以上"},{"start":2803.434,"end":2818.626,"text":"謝謝黃委員,非常好的給我這個機會來澄清首先核安會跟我們國研院那兩個的形式是不一樣的核安會是執行公務"},{"start":2820.467,"end":2838.696,"text":"公務法律賦予的責任是核安、府安、放射性核物料的管制和審查。這是公務法律賦予的責任。國研院是做科技研發的工作,來支持核安會的主要業務。"},{"start":2843.698,"end":2847.741,"text":"委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全"},{"start":2866.336,"end":2866.956,"text":"第四提案"},{"start":2888.771,"end":2890.492,"text":"核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":2915.9,"end":2934.747,"text":"那部分又沒有預算,那到底,我在質詢有提到,就是說它到底是需要的還是只是一個原額編制?是一個原額編制而已,那這個在過去原能會的時代就已經是編在我們這邊。祖密那一天也有做一些詳細的說明,那如果必要的話祖密可以再說明一下。"},{"start":2937.478,"end":2954.649,"text":"我是主任律師王重德有關於20個空缺的部分這個是歷史歷史就是當時從科技部核安署的部分當時就有空留這20個元額後來因為改成主改變的核安會以後那當時行政院是有空管這20個元額"},{"start":2955.93,"end":2957.131,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家"},{"start":2974.787,"end":2979.988,"text":"好 我的問題是延續同樣這個問題我提的第7案因為你們剛剛講了說明了這些人力的這個調整的這個問題但是問題是說你們編列了7560萬餘元就是要做這個辦公廳設的裝修因為剛剛說的因為移撥的人力還有新進人力的辦公空間所以為這個東西那跟剛剛你們說明的"},{"start":3001.092,"end":3020.544,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家"},{"start":3027.621,"end":3047.137,"text":"謝謝召委。辦公廳社這個裝修這個名詞我想不是太適當,弄得不是原來的本意。裝修有幾個意涵,第一個是改成三級機關之後,我們有一些的廳社,比如說主委的辦公室,他要縮小。"},{"start":3048.138,"end":3072.136,"text":"副主委的辦公室本來有兩位也要減少32個人也要移入那麼我們有一些的這個老舊的這個設備像冷氣那這個地方要做一些增修有安全消防的部分那麼這個部分我想在同仁給這個召委的說明裡面都有一些細節"},{"start":3073.517,"end":3100.978,"text":"所以這個是我想這個裝修這兩個字本身的意涵不是太好啦沒有反映這個原來的本質跟趙偉說明所以你們把原有譬如說像這個你們的辦公室減少然後副主委人數變少了減少然後再增加辦公廳的空間給這32個人"},{"start":3121.122,"end":3129.068,"text":"消防的法規必須符合那所以也跟著修改好那請問一下兩位委員的意見黃委員"},{"start":3135.885,"end":3150.399,"text":"這樣子啦 核安會是這樣核安會主改之後當然你們的編制一定不可能比之前的原人會的編制還大嘛 是吧再來 你們的業務也不可能比之前的原人會的業務還大嘛 是不是"},{"start":3151.48,"end":3152.361,"text":"主管核電廠除役除役"},{"start":3179.637,"end":3205.587,"text":"三個核電廠加起來他的period超過25年因為有人先走有人慢走所以超過30年那這裡面的核廢料一些安全的這個工作其實跟等同於運轉期間所以這個部分是很重要的課題我要跟委員報告我了解其實核安會要告訴我們就是說即便是主改之後看起來是降級了但是我們的業務"},{"start":3207.622,"end":3218.144,"text":"一、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子一、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子一、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子一、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":3238.274,"end":3266.267,"text":"我們這個整個預算的配置包括在人力的部分那為什麼會還增加那你說辦公廳設的裝修既然都已經變成現在是獨立單位了那為什麼還會有增加費用可能是你們可主改之後的名稱可能要改變了辦公室的配置可能要做一些調整可能衍生了一些費用而這衍生的費用合不合理就這個樣子而已那你要跟我們說明"},{"start":3267.369,"end":3282.941,"text":"就是說這個主委啊你們這個預算增加是不是一點點是增加幾乎兩倍欸這個部分你這個對啊到為什麼為什麼會這樣子啊那個邱主任還是主秘來說一些細節說明"},{"start":3288.998,"end":3299.228,"text":"趙偉跟各位委員報告一下如果說以原人會主管的話在112年的部分我們今年是27億然後未來的話是那邱主任你講"},{"start":3313.391,"end":3336.607,"text":"報告委員我是橫安會秘書室主任我姓邱慶威那跟委員報告主要我們這個裝修的這個費用我們從以前的原能會從91年辦到現在這個辦公的這個場所那我們中間都沒有異動那這一次我們在調整這個室內空間的時候因為我們涉及到一些科別的增加雖然我們能力的部分其實"},{"start":3337.227,"end":3361.681,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3361.721,"end":3379.613,"text":"您們本來這個預算的規模就這一幕是三億五千多萬那你們現在增加到六億一千多萬你剛剛這個裝修的部分已經回答過了就剛剛黃國書委員的問題那為什麼你們這個要增加到將近三千萬兩千六百萬兩億六千萬"},{"start":3386.639,"end":3387.039,"text":"主席主任"},{"start":3416.328,"end":3420.271,"text":"你看沒檢討,它是放在他們的業務計畫裡面有有有就是他原來預算就切一部分人員維持費到我們這邊來八千多萬"},{"start":3452.516,"end":3478.974,"text":"我跟昭緯報告還有物管局那個物管局也併入我們會裡面變成物管組他本來是附屬單位那個物管局以前預算大概是八千多萬包含人事費那現在的經費是兩千萬為什麼呢?因為人事費拨進會裡邊的一起算"},{"start":3480.194,"end":3501.314,"text":"所以我們預算變2000萬跟主改前幾乎是一樣那人力我直接在管我知道我人原來有42個那現在39個包括加上已經移進來的32個裡面我們分到4個所以現在是39個"},{"start":3502.737,"end":3514.004,"text":"工作光是盤點已經看得到已經台電計畫書都看得到的設施就會增加9個請問一下黃委員跟張賴灣建委員的意見"},{"start":3526.155,"end":3552.686,"text":"好,看這一幕有沒有要動啦,看有沒有要動啦,那我覺得你們一個比較完整的說明啦,包括人力的配置,你的業務滋長,增加的狀況,我覺得這個還是要有一個說明啦,我覺得這一幕看起來,著動一點點,那我們著動一點啦,好不好,然後你們把這個我們剛剛所有的問題綜合整理一個比較完整的具體的書面說明,好不好,那動多少呢?"},{"start":3556.394,"end":3581.751,"text":"好,那就凍結100萬加書面說明我們就是然後這個第三案跟第六案改成主決議那接下來第二幕第八案到第38案就是原本的這個原子能管理發展業務還有核能研究所的業務現在都併到這邊來了"},{"start":3585.6,"end":3613.536,"text":"陳培宇委員陳秀寶委員林怡瑾委員張廖旺英堅委員張綺露委員陳培宇主席在這一幕我們有三案第一個是第15案關於社會溝通的部分就是他們長期有在做科普活動還有所謂全民參與委員會那我們會特別強調科普是因為只要每次到了選舉前所有關於這個核安的訊息就會被做成非常多假資訊的圖卡"},{"start":3615.057,"end":3637.715,"text":"我們覺得與其遇到這些假資訊的圖卡的時候才開始澄清不如應該在平常有非常非常多機會不管是透過活動、透過演講、透過各式各樣的活動讓人民理解核安這件事情而不是遇到事情的時候才出來解釋我相信科學家跟一般人在理解這些事情上一定有一些落差所以我們希望持續監督關於科普的部分"},{"start":3639.835,"end":3660.221,"text":"提到關於全民參與委員會的部分雖然當時有回答說是半年原則上是半年召開一次但我們其實也很想問一下有沒有機會多多增加跟民眾溝通的機會跟相關的頻率第17案的部分我先說一下剛剛第15案我們沒有要堅持凍結的數字我們可以合併處理"},{"start":3661.281,"end":3683.193,"text":"十七案的部分關於國研院的部分剛國書委員說到光是補給國研院就21億高達了七成但是我們擔心國研院會不會又再把相關的研究外包那其實就會產生監督上的困難所以這個部分我們認為應該要更加精進監督這個預算的部分那這個我們專案報告可以改成書面報告那預算的部分可以並動"},{"start":3684.514,"end":3703.127,"text":"二十四案提到關於星島館跟血管攝影S光機之前也跟你們溝通過了那我們希望這些業務真的可以落實並且審慎辦理來確保相關從業人員的健康管理追蹤那這一案的預算提案凍結數不堅持一案可以並動好以上謝謝"},{"start":3706.434,"end":3731.029,"text":"我們接下來請陳秀寶委員在這一幕裡面我的案子有五個案子第一個案子是針對這次聯合國的氣候變化綱要公約第28次締約方會議這個部分那我這邊是希望說和安慰你們這邊也說明一下說現在國際能源發展趨勢因為有這樣子的走向那我們自己本身我們自己有在做綠能產業應用科技術發展的計畫"},{"start":3735.512,"end":3738.054,"text":"第14案 核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管"},{"start":3759.514,"end":3779.875,"text":"總計只有13000多次。平均一年下載的下載量大概只有2200多次。這個下載量真的比較少。所以這個部分我也希望說核安會你們在113年能夠盡力去推廣。自己要定一個目標至少一年至少沒有五六千次也要有三四千次的下載量。"},{"start":3780.876,"end":3782.077,"text":"第18個案是關於綠能產業技術應用計畫相關經費。"},{"start":3798.812,"end":3818.109,"text":"我們核安會來辦理這個所謂的綠能產業應用計畫發展計畫也有說明說這個部分呢是針對說生殖能以及儲能設備相關的研究計畫那這個部分呢這個案子我可以改成主決議但是請核安會這邊你們要跟中研院這邊密切來合作在中研院建設的近年排放科這個"},{"start":3819.09,"end":3824.234,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":3843.789,"end":3868.324,"text":"這個部分是辦理國家海域放射性物質擴散預警以及安全評估應對計劃等相關的這些作業核安會這邊你們有說明說你們有跟漁業署合作配合漁船出海作業去做採樣那所以你們這個更新的這個頻率沒有那麼快那這邊我是希望說請核安會你們要評估看看是不是能夠增加你們檢測的頻率提高檢測的頻率因為民眾一直對這種"},{"start":3869.895,"end":3896.153,"text":"放射性物質的排放對我們的安全、對我們的生活、對我們食物、食品的影響都很有疑慮所以甚至也會連帶影響到應該會影響到漁產品、農業產品的消費衝擊到市場所以這邊是不是請我們能夠提高檢測的頻率而且我們一定要迅速的公佈檢測的結果那民眾可以安心第五個案子是第37案這個部分是關於提升民眾對輻射災害應變診斷值的相關經費"},{"start":3900.095,"end":3900.855,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":3925.236,"end":3927.937,"text":"衛生委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管"},{"start":3954.807,"end":3975.12,"text":"每到這個時候就會有很多這種假序型圖卡來誤導民眾那如果說我們看到假序型的圖卡之後再做澄清就覺得這樣是太被動是不是我們自己也可以主動先推出正確的核安訊息的圖卡我們自己就是相關的訊息我們有在做的那要給民眾一些正確的訊息宣導的這些部分我們就先做出來"},{"start":3975.7,"end":3975.9,"text":"接下來請林益錦委員"},{"start":3996.64,"end":4024.055,"text":"謝謝主席我在這目有三個案子首先是第二、三案二、三案是有關於將這個六幅畫又安定化處理處置經費這個項目那因為我們這個其實是想要將這個儲存的這個六幅畫又送往境外處理然後進行安定化的處理跟處置"},{"start":4025.356,"end":4049.32,"text":"當然本來看起來是完成的期限一再延展而且已經四度修正這個計畫的展期那因為這個進度都有延宕那所以當然有提一些凍結的案子可是因為這個核安會上週四的說明讓我們知道說這個預計在明年的1月底"},{"start":4050.28,"end":4068.912,"text":"獲得許可文件,9月執行運送作業,並在12月底完成檢測分析及所有權轉移。既然已交代完整期程,我同意改成主決議,後續請核安會積極辦理。"},{"start":4073.894,"end":4097.004,"text":"二十九案有關海域穿水監控跨部會合作相關預算當我們想關注日本排放寒川廢水的議題的時候我覺得很可能我們也忽略到其實更大的排放國就是我們在隔壁的中國"},{"start":4098.737,"end":4123.715,"text":"核安會王主任秘書日前就有向媒體表示說以2019年的數據來看中國核電廠一年川排放的總量約比日本多了7到8倍而且中國的川沸水的排放量最大的四座核電廠加起來每年就比日本福島計畫排放量多到5到7倍"},{"start":4124.415,"end":4125.156,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":4144.087,"end":4145.548,"text":"主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會"},{"start":4157.495,"end":4181.994,"text":"除了現行針對日本寒川沸水這個排放的各項監測作為外那我們對於中國的寒川沸水的排放又有哪些因應的措施未來怎麼樣加強強化這個監測並且提供更透明開放的訊息給民眾讓大家能夠安心也讓台灣受到的衝擊降到最低"},{"start":4182.754,"end":4190.493,"text":"所以這一案我當然不堅持要鬥多少待會再大家一併來處理好那另外一個案子是第"},{"start":4192.534,"end":4220.003,"text":"第35案那這個案子當然也跟核廢料處理有關係喔主要是關心如果核一、核二的室外竿組遲遲未能啟用那麼我們每年需要額外付出到底有多少成本或者我們要承擔什麼樣的風險我們知道說採取竿式組存有很多的優點"},{"start":4221.323,"end":4228.545,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家"},{"start":4246.609,"end":4268.043,"text":"設施的啟用與否對於後續除役的作業有什麼樣實質的影響那如果能及時啟用那每年預期可以節省多少的經濟成本那並提升除役過度的階段有哪些面向的核安防護那這一案我也是不堅持凍結多少再跟大家一併處理以上謝謝"},{"start":4269.707,"end":4293.527,"text":"好,我們先請張亮萬堅委員,然後待會先讓那個何安慧回答,我們在後面好,請張亮萬堅我有三案,第16案,第16案也是有關我諮詢過了就是有關那個六福化幼的這個處理的計畫那當然從這個計畫大概從104年開始就編列預算那到今年為止每年的預算諮詢率都不超過5%那今年呢其實也才執行108萬1千元"},{"start":4295.228,"end":4311.204,"text":"那當然國研院的說明是說113年度會完成該專案計畫那是否可能可以達到我是有點質疑那你們當然有說明就是說這個延後的原因是因為英國的運輸容器還在申請執照那你們也是預計預計113年1月底可以得到執照"},{"start":4315.007,"end":4334.261,"text":"獲得執照後113年的中下旬在進行國內運輸9月底才進行海運作業那也是說113年底這都是計畫也是預計那其實我在審預算前幾年我都看到你們也都說預計預計後來都因故又延後所以我"},{"start":4335.041,"end":4336.762,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":4365.282,"end":4366.704,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":4376.767,"end":4397.328,"text":"你們有說明說因為你們沒有這個自己的船能夠去取樣所以只能協調相關單位或漁協來協助那國人很關注這個廢水排放後對整個環境跟漁獲的影響那我們是建議說核安會應該盡量這個增加這個取樣的頻率以確保我國民安全這個使用這個海產的安全"},{"start":4398.029,"end":4398.389,"text":"第三十三案"},{"start":4416.881,"end":4429.112,"text":"也是有關核一核二現在已經進入除役了吼那因為燃料池都已滿了那現在爐心你的燃料棒沒有辦法退出那台電是有提出這個所謂的用過核子燃料最終處置計畫"},{"start":4431.899,"end":4452.187,"text":"這個計劃目前處於候選長子評選及核定階段,期程107年至117年。現在看起來,不僅最終處置候選長子沒有規劃,連乾式儲存廠都還沒有興建,也都是在提出建造申請中。核安會應該要加強對台電的"},{"start":4453.847,"end":4455.488,"text":"主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會"},{"start":4478.856,"end":4479.397,"text":"何安惠回答"},{"start":4493.702,"end":4517.814,"text":"首先非常謝謝陳秀寶委員、陳培宇委員、林一景委員跟張亮萬娟委員非常建設性的一些建議那這些都是我們業務的核心那首先我想先請那個其司組長負責這一幕的這個我們業務的組長來做一些說明那其他的部分我再請其他組長來做一些補充謝謝"},{"start":4519.254,"end":4546.368,"text":"主席、各位委員我是中規組的組長李其思以下先就這個委員都非常關心民眾溝通的這一塊核安會也知道民眾溝通是這個非常重要的所以我們從108年起就辦理科普產分別朝向、分林、分眾、城市、偏鄉還有弱勢族群我們都會不管實體或是線上我們都會做相關的這個原子能科技的一個溝通跟宣導"},{"start":4547.268,"end":4569.389,"text":"這部分我們還是會持續辦理當然現在我們會結合數位化的方式來進行這項工作第二個剛才委員有提到全民參與委員會的事前我想現在剛好我們也是一個逐改的階段我們變成安全的獨立機關所以整個如何跟民眾溝通的這些管道我們也希望聽各方的意見跟我們建議所以這一塊我們會整個來考量整個"},{"start":4572.612,"end":4599.875,"text":"全民參與委員會的運作模式另外還有委員也非常關切這個核安一點通的APP這個下載率不足這個當然我們是屬於知識型的防災的一個APP它當然有它先天上的一個限制但是無論如何我們也會遵照委員的指示我們一定會在各種場合包括在跟民眾宣導上課的時候我們也會鼓勵民眾來下載這個APP"},{"start":4601.696,"end":4625.549,"text":"當然民眾這個核安一點通的APP只是核安會對外溝通的管道之一但是每個管道我們都會把它做得更好所以這部分非常謝謝委員的指教以上好謝謝齁那個再下來齁我們請這個呃高組長齁來講一下那個室內乾除室外乾除齁啟用的部分齁"},{"start":4629.352,"end":4651.793,"text":"是,那個我想我這邊的話,我是務管組啦委員關切在這一段的話有,我剛剛聽到有兩個議題一個是,一個是甘楚,一個是地下實驗室啦甘楚這個目前的確像委員所講的"},{"start":4653.73,"end":4679.831,"text":"從私儲走到甘儲再進儲置大概目前大家都接受國際上也都這樣接受了那我們現在走到甘儲看到甘儲說停在那邊甘儲的情況我們的確是光就甘儲這個議題是跟台電的管制會議是一個月就要一次持續不斷已經好多年了那以一起的室外的部分"},{"start":4681.34,"end":4702.449,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4702.449,"end":4721.34,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4721.5,"end":4723.041,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度及113年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":4744.318,"end":4771.392,"text":"那有關地下實驗室我是跟委員說明因為好幾位委員有關心到地下實驗室這個處置的那個進展那地下實驗室是這樣子我們其實是不斷的在要求台電公司高放的處置的整體要跟上國際上的腳步因為國際上已經做了好幾十年一定要跟上來那這裡面有兩個方向要努力"},{"start":4773.174,"end":4797.568,"text":"一個就是他的安全評估的技術要跟上來第二個就是要取得有用的數據那現在委員關切的是取得數據這一部分光就今年最近的我們在台電的這個案子的管制會議上就直接要求直接要求說應要儘早取得數據"},{"start":4798.925,"end":4824.868,"text":"那台電的回應是說我們也是跟他討論就是說他們會想辦法去參加國際上的相關的合作計畫因為目前跑得最快是芬蘭那芬蘭他有一個開放性的合作計畫他們會去參與那整個就是一個地下實驗室從這邊取經回來把有用的做法"},{"start":4826.37,"end":4833.614,"text":"我們會持續的去關注去監督台電能夠做好這部分的規劃以上報告"},{"start":4842.9,"end":4843.041,"text":"陳秀寶委員"},{"start":4860.359,"end":4874.229,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":4887.159,"end":4888.62,"text":"主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會"},{"start":4915.691,"end":4940.026,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":4940.146,"end":4957.592,"text":"於火的部分就是由於夜暑來去詳細的公布那我們這部分就是去做一個海水的一個公布那這邊就先跟委員做一個一個口頭報告那有關於就是大陸電廠的這一邊就是不管我們是在海水的監測107點我們都有包括"},{"start":4961.067,"end":4982.039,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4982.299,"end":4990.463,"text":"的一個漁產他的一個代表的漁獲來去做對應的一個取樣那在我們這部分因為大陸的一個如果事故我們會區分兩個就是氣體排放那如果是有氣體排放我們在周圍有有全台灣有設置了63站的這個即時的因為因為那個氣體是可以用即時監測所以我們有63站在離島也都有布點"},{"start":5008.951,"end":5019.399,"text":"第107年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案第106年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案第107年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案第106年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":5033.37,"end":5058.183,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5058.263,"end":5059.284,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":5084.329,"end":5085.05,"text":"國研院高子木"},{"start":5107.214,"end":5123.344,"text":"郭議員、高子牧,跟各位委員做一個說明。針對臧料委員所提及六幅畫幼的問題,今年為什麼遇到困難?主要是我們這個六幅畫幼的成分跟一般的物料不一樣,它是特殊的核物料,運送的櫃子。"},{"start":5125.685,"end":5146.212,"text":"必須要經過英國核能管制單位的一個審查才能夠通過才能開始運送所以導致我們這個一再延宕對委員我們實在是非常抱歉所以今年在上個月我們把負責主旗式的化工所的所長跟副所長請他到英國正式跟他協商同時這兩天"},{"start":5148.433,"end":5149.114,"text":"委員會主管核子事故緊緊緊"},{"start":5178.833,"end":5197.425,"text":"能夠改組決議文,讓我們能夠...抱歉,我再做一個說明,我們會盡全力以全院的力量來把它達成這個任務,第10年任務,希望在第10年結束的時候我們能夠跟明年在跟院裡報告的時候能夠順利達標。感謝委員,謝謝。好,我們接下來請張綺路委員"},{"start":5210.527,"end":5231.962,"text":"我這邊在這一幕有兩案第一11案我很快速的講一下這邊最主要是因為我們這一幕的這個預算高達20多億那其實最重要的就是所謂這個原子能科學發展它有21億左右那簡單的講就是說這邊這一案我為什麼提就是因為"},{"start":5232.602,"end":5250.913,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5250.913,"end":5268.882,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":5268.882,"end":5270.043,"text":"委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管"},{"start":5286.431,"end":5288.873,"text":"第34案核一核二的乾式儲存設施到底要怎麼樣"},{"start":5314.974,"end":5344.394,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5345.325,"end":5345.505,"text":"主席"},{"start":5359.918,"end":5388.807,"text":"是涉及到核災演習的資訊傳播過程應該要能夠盡可能的顧及多元跟弱勢族群的權益因為之前的原能會現在的核安會在新北市萬里跟石門地區辦理過核安第29號演習主要是以核二廠遭遇複合式災害為主題進行演習我們知道在那裡其實涉及到觀光客他有不同的國籍也涉及到不同的"},{"start":5389.107,"end":5411.251,"text":"主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會"},{"start":5414.552,"end":5436.358,"text":"資訊的落差當然我覺得還有改善的空間但是因為你們有在關注到這個問題所以我現在這個議題可以改成主決議希望核安會提出來的災害應變計畫盡可能的在資訊上顧及多元特別是弱勢族群的需求給我一個書面報告就可以以上說明 謝謝接下來請吳思瑤委員"},{"start":5440.507,"end":5465.309,"text":"謝謝我有四個案子很快速的報告19案就是這個核一製藥中心的人力確實是比較短缺那我上週的質詢主委有說我們加強趕快來聘任那看起來是明年初才要再新聘啊這我只是再提個案子提醒如果沒有專業人才就凡事萬萬不能嘛"},{"start":5466.63,"end":5471.113,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人"},{"start":5495.086,"end":5498.07,"text":"主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核"},{"start":5512.19,"end":5514.091,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":5535.365,"end":5554.292,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":5564.56,"end":5568.622,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家"},{"start":5587.782,"end":5608.613,"text":"我只是要再提醒說對食安的把關寒川的這個檢測他的這些設的這些點一個是我們自己提升量能我們可以跟國家級的不管是食藥署或者是我們和安會自己國園院的機構來做寒川食品的檢測但是"},{"start":5610.814,"end":5610.834,"text":"請黃國書委員"},{"start":5638.332,"end":5661.993,"text":"好,這一幕我的案子是10案跟3、4案剛剛核安會大概有說明了啦,好好那不過3、4、2案有關於那個地下實驗室的推動現在當然還碰到一些困難不過我想問一個基本的立場我想問一下核安會現在主改之後因為現在核一場、核二場都已經進入除疫階段了"},{"start":5663.063,"end":5664.844,"text":"第二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":5682.227,"end":5684.608,"text":"主管總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急"},{"start":5702.259,"end":5727.006,"text":"核電作為一個能源即便現在的技術可能會做到安全無虞即便是這個樣子但是在台灣我們還是要面臨那最終處置場怎麼處理啊這個不是誰執政之後大家都可以閃躲的最終處置場它最大的困難就在於它放置的地點的地方它必須要公投嘛"},{"start":5727.608,"end":5747.607,"text":"那之前台電有規劃說要在臺東的達仁鄉或是金門的烏丘等等這是初步暫時的規劃即便是這個樣子地方要公投那公投不會過 那你最終的處置場你就找不到地方放那這個議題什麼時候會發生現在都已經面臨了因為已經在處理了你未來最終處置場你還是要決定這個場址"},{"start":5751.591,"end":5753.973,"text":"第二、繼續審查113年度及113年度行政法人國家"},{"start":5770.783,"end":5790.74,"text":"是我們是我們核安會吧現在是核安會嘛對不對所以我也想利用今天應該是這一屆最後一次跟核安會的預算審查會議了所以我也想了解一下核安會就是之前的原能會在主改之後核安會的立場會是什麼"},{"start":5791.32,"end":5808.679,"text":"可不可能去修改地方條例裡頭的最終組織場地方要公投的這一個規定那核安會的立場會是什麼這個立場會影響到未來台灣要不要繼續發展核電好以上"},{"start":5810.43,"end":5829.906,"text":"接下來是我的提案,我有兩個提案第一個提案呢,是像剛剛張祺祿委員講的跟我講的其實是同一件事情那這個東西真的是我覺得太畸形了你這個國園會的預算佔了高達整體預算的七成然後佔了我們這一幕的九成那你這個"},{"start":5832.714,"end":5833.815,"text":"主管核安全委員會主管國家原子"},{"start":5853.443,"end":5869.1,"text":"這個東西的這樣子的一個設置這個剛剛因為張其路委員已經說過了我就不再多說了這是我的第一個提案第二個提案呢就是有關於這個地下實驗室的這個部分剛剛雖然已經有做了一個回答了但是這個"},{"start":5871.092,"end":5893.964,"text":"非同小可,非常關鍵這跟你們這個核安會負責台電公司去執行的這個用過核子燃料最終處置計劃裡面你現在卡在這邊這個沒有過你前面做的是白做的後面也做不下去欸所以這個東西如果沒有一個很具體的處理方式就靠台電說的這個東西是非常非常不靠譜的"},{"start":5895.305,"end":5913.36,"text":"那麼這個東西我們的相關的規定是非常的清楚的你第一階段你既然國際原子能總署都已經建議要求說我們必須要做地下實驗室那這個東西是沒有辦法跳過去的喔所以光是您剛說的強力的勸說這個東西台電到底什麼時候"},{"start":5917.964,"end":5939.535,"text":"可以具體的去跟芬蘭合作因為你這變成還要看看芬蘭的狀況嗎不是我們自己可以決定跟主導的然後你這個關卡是完全牽涉到這個計畫會不會最後形同作廢啊所以我覺得這個事情還是必須要給台電足夠的壓力啦好這是我的補充那先請你們回答"},{"start":5941.329,"end":5941.449,"text":"委員會主管核"},{"start":5971.629,"end":5985.077,"text":"的interaction監督的機制我想我不是不熟悉那麼我想我們幾位同仁知道齊師組長會做一些補充那麼等一下我再請其他幾位組長來齊師"},{"start":5987.136,"end":6012.248,"text":"是,主席還有各位委員確實如主席還有委員講的目前國營院的營運大概我們編了21億左右佔了我們大概7成多的預算當然這些經費編列是要延續原來核研所所執行的一些中長城科技研發和設施清理還有全國小產業放射性廢棄物收儲等這些國家任務為主"},{"start":6013.568,"end":6042.146,"text":"當然也因應這個我們還特別訂定了一個國家原子能科技研究院的績效評鑑辦法我們去從外部找委員來針對國研院的一些發展一些計畫來做相關的評鑑我們找相關的機關、學者專家、社會的公正人士等等我們也知道說國研院的績效好壞直接影響到核安會的績效所以這一部分我們謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":6042.566,"end":6068.064,"text":"我們一定會嚴格的來監督他們各項計畫的執行。以上。國營院的部分他是主要做科技的研發來support我們核安會由於政策導向的一些我們機構國家的賦予的法律的責任我想再做一些補充那下來我們請那個廖組長做一些說明"},{"start":6071.002,"end":6097.536,"text":"好,針對剛才換委員提到說演習的部分我想非常謝謝那個換委員的指導跟提醒那我們相關的事情就是當時因為看到那個也有部分是超前部署的部分那第一階段那後面有關於這個多元族群或者數位落差不我們非常注意也會有實體的核子事故的警報或者春麗廣播那這個謝謝那個委員同意改成主決議那我們會後會把完整的宿命報告再提供謝謝"},{"start":6099.246,"end":6114.236,"text":"接下來請國研院高院長談一下核一70NEV還有生物養殖場、海水養殖場的部分。謝謝委員尤其是吳委員的。"},{"start":6118.888,"end":6144.758,"text":"喂,謝謝委員剛剛提到三個議題第一個是人力的應用那個第19案人力應用我們是在主改927的時候就重新盤整把維修部門的14個人跟委員來的29位合一致要整合所以現在距離45位只差兩位那我們已經公開大概要招募上百位的那個願聘的員工那其中"},{"start":6145.919,"end":6159.835,"text":"同位數應用所就有10個人其中我們會分配兩個人到這裡補租委員所期待45位的人力第二個是有關於養殖養殖現在事實上在我們所內已經建置完成這所有的設備"},{"start":6160.896,"end":6176.425,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":6176.545,"end":6199.887,"text":"我可以先問一下這個差一下這個養殖因為跟我們在海水上去取樣是不一樣取樣我們會很快速的透過公開的系統去公開給國人嘛但是這個養殖它就是是不是它就只是一個研究它不會隨時的它就是一個梯次的研究一個階段的研究它不會是跟那個我們現在已經建制的那個公開的那個不一樣"},{"start":6200.807,"end":6211.331,"text":"跟委員報告,我們這個養殖漁類當時有跟國內中山大學有合作計畫,他們建立10種,10種漁類,所以選擇的是這樣,那海水我們有6個對照組,6個這個實驗組,兩邊會對照,有穿水跟沒穿水這樣的一個狀況,所以有20噸蠻大的一個容器,1.5公尺,20噸每一個桶子,總共12個桶,我們規劃是這樣。"},{"start":6228.057,"end":6244.731,"text":"希望盡量能夠模擬海洋的真實狀況,但是跟海洋事故還是有段落差。我們到時候研究出來的結果會說明這個差異,會跟委員再做一個報告。希望半年內能夠有一個初步的一個研究成果,有機會再來跟大院裡再來做報告。"},{"start":6245.652,"end":6256.183,"text":"adequate to the first year of the first year of the first year of the first year, but my"},{"start":6262.85,"end":6286.869,"text":"我比較痛苦是國外都要7年我們被壓縮成4年但是目前我們還是朝這個努力所謂努力的是包括這個價錢廠家報的一個高所以去年10月我到加拿大跟廠家也到歐洲去跟廠家做一個協商希望他們能夠降價那也成功降了超過1.3億的價格所以我們才有辦法支持讓我們3月時候讓回旋加速器能夠順利承讓"},{"start":6288.75,"end":6317.87,"text":"現在就是土建的問題土建因為缺工缺料我們有十個廠家最近公告十個廠家有來詢問最後有兩個廠家來領標但是第一標是上禮拜開案但是沒辦法成案只有兩家所以明天會在第二次七天會在第二次但是我是覺得價格初步了解跟廠家所期待有一點點大概20%的落差我們估計兩三成的落差所以這一方面我們再想辦法看看怎麼再去努力"},{"start":6319.151,"end":6319.751,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6336.164,"end":6353.032,"text":"否則一個這麼重要的科研的設備的建構就卡在一個研究室的那個土建的工程我覺得那個差20%你就去圖我們就我們也不會動預算也不會減預算就全力支持好不好加油再次感謝委員的支持謝謝我們最後那個陳宏斌組長談一下那個最終處置場條例的部分"},{"start":6365.205,"end":6385.164,"text":"我覺得甘楚到選址到地下試驗室應該是這樣子啦那甘楚我當然是跟張委員報告就是說我們其實我承認現在組裡邊整個工作壓力最大的就是擁有咱的甘楚"},{"start":6386.386,"end":6402.064,"text":"因為他就處在一個隨時要突破的階段所以我們所有準備工作現在一個一個趕快加快因為案子一來我們的審查是不能夠打馬虎眼的所以通通要準備好"},{"start":6402.645,"end":6403.165,"text":"委員會主管核子事故緊急應變"},{"start":6429.747,"end":6430.027,"text":"經濟部會怎樣?"},{"start":6459.164,"end":6474.822,"text":"高放的選址才會來做立法的工作經濟部會做立法的工作可是這條例不是我們核安會主管的嗎那個那時候的低放的選址條例是很早的時候是assigned到原能會這個頭上"},{"start":6476.084,"end":6477.865,"text":"委員會主管核能安全委員會主管"},{"start":6493.686,"end":6510.394,"text":"我覺得說這個整個就是一個選址的行政程序其實一套就夠了只要能夠選得出來那至於說用什麼形式是我們是都OK的只要民眾都同意能夠走得通什麼形式我們都不犯太"},{"start":6511.034,"end":6539.549,"text":"台電希望最終處置場他必須要地方公投他希望把它放寬掉因為卡在那裡你根本即便你宣號紙的地方公投沒過你還是沒辦法推動啊現在是這個樣子啊如果那個沒有辦法去做更正的話其實全台灣哪一個地方哪一個地方可以可能公投同意讓你設置最終處置場現在是這個難題啊你了解我的意思嗎那現在經濟部台電那邊大概也提出想法的說希望可不可能"},{"start":6540.149,"end":6544.213,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":6560.566,"end":6574.145,"text":"出來之後兩個宣誓一合併就是希望就是說能夠走看看那核安會的立場是什麼是希望如果把公投這個程序廢掉的話那核安會的立場是什麼"},{"start":6574.885,"end":6575.646,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":6592.944,"end":6594.125,"text":"主委,我們核安會的立場是不是這個樣子?"},{"start":6617.183,"end":6639.96,"text":"核安會主要還是堅守核能的安全核廢料的安全那麼這個issue是我們專業的把關那麼也是作為獨立機關最重要的課題那麼是整個國家有關於安全上面做一個最重要的一個把關的工作"},{"start":6640.76,"end":6666.577,"text":"那麼剛才我們提到的就是修法這些其實最重要還是要全民的共識那麼這個是一個很大的課題那麼我想經濟部跟河安會跟台電其實都知道這些issue那也牽扯到一些可行性國家未來的政策的發展那大概跟委員說明"},{"start":6667.978,"end":6682.654,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":6683.496,"end":6703.652,"text":"就是這樣子啊你沒有明確的最終廚師廠選址的地點然後這個選址的程序看起來現在也卡關嘛你連現在這個地下實驗室的推動都碰到困難了嗎那個地下實驗室我就接續下來講就有那個好謝謝"},{"start":6708.948,"end":6735.702,"text":"主席謝謝我再補充一下就剛剛在提到那個川沸水的時候就是說剛剛其實有提到說我們有107個布點嘛齁那其實這樣非常那可是我們從網站上喔就是說我們核安會的網站上其實是是可以看到寒川沸水整個的這個歷史洋流的整個模擬的擴散的這個動態分析圖喔是可以看得見的這是針對日本"},{"start":6737.483,"end":6756.357,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6758.134,"end":6784.759,"text":"包括委員就是在團隊在我們的政策的一個規劃還有團技術團隊的規劃其實都有都會把那個臺灣海峽的這個納入去建置那我們預期的一個進度是明年開始我們就會開始去收集一些洋流的一些歷史的一個資料那開始希望是114年就可以開始去做這一塊的一個技術上的一個部件"},{"start":6786.42,"end":6802.695,"text":"這是有納入規劃的所以你的意思是說未來在網站上一般民眾其實上網就可以看見包括在中國就在海峽這邊的川沸水的整個洋流的擴散狀況"},{"start":6806.539,"end":6808.06,"text":"二、繼續審查113年度及113年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":6824.142,"end":6827.304,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家"},{"start":6846.809,"end":6848.889,"text":"一千萬可以嗎?這是我的建議。"},{"start":6872.901,"end":6875.202,"text":"第12案、第13案、第14案是主決議。18案、22案、23案、26案、27案、28案、31案。"},{"start":6896.147,"end":6915.886,"text":"三十六案、三十七案、三十八案是主決議。好。二十五案主決議。謝謝。二十五案也是改成主決議。好。那接下來是第五幕。三十九案到四十四案的部分。好。請那個陳秀寶委員然後是林一錦委員。"},{"start":6919.358,"end":6922.7,"text":"五、繼續審查123年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":6940.215,"end":6952.484,"text":"核栽之後,在北部及南部有跟大專院校合作建置放射性分離備援實驗室。從107年開始就設立檢驗,每年最大檢驗的量是各3800件。但是實驗室建置之後,總檢測件數每年2個北部跟南部合起來不到300件。"},{"start":6963.592,"end":6988.712,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":6988.712,"end":7008.49,"text":"檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測"},{"start":7008.53,"end":7014.092,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家"},{"start":7033.806,"end":7035.747,"text":"海域重要漁場水質與回游漁類漁種輻射安全評估的相關經費。"},{"start":7051.656,"end":7057.56,"text":"我覺得你們這個在跟民眾溝通這一塊應該要更加強其實一般民眾對相關輻射的知識的認知本來就不如你們核安會的專業那如果你們既然做了檢測要覺得是沒有問題的數據上是OK的但是應該要明確的告訴民眾比如說你們用一些QA圖卡還是透過科普活動或是網站來推播來告訴民眾說我們做了檢測那相關的食品都是安全的這樣也比較不會再發生像之前民眾有恐慌在搶"},{"start":7080.754,"end":7081.875,"text":"委員會主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會主管"},{"start":7106.615,"end":7122.091,"text":"檢測那數據是安全的就要讓民眾知道好所以這個部分如何去做推廣這個訊息給民眾我希望說你們這邊可以好好的去思考說怎麼去規劃做讓民眾知道正確的訊息這邊那我這兩個案子我都可以改組決議以上好接下來請林錦委員"},{"start":7126.964,"end":7135.308,"text":"謝謝主席我的第五幕是43案喔43案是針對中國近年來迅速發展核電廠那如果發生事故卻隱匿真相會導致我國在沒有在第一時間收到這個核災通報我們怎麼該如何處置的問題那這個問題其實在上週質詢的時候已經有跟主委做過探討"},{"start":7153.117,"end":7165.182,"text":"提出這份的預算提案其實是希望核安會另外再用書面的報告做一些更完整的說明所以這一案其實我也不堅持要動多少等一下大家來一起處理好 謝謝"},{"start":7168.464,"end":7189.571,"text":"我的部分這兩案就是我在質詢的時候強調的其實也是剛剛這個陳秀寶委員在談的就是說我們的這些重要的監測的相關的這個廢水的結果那麼民眾在取得這個資訊事實上是有技術上面的困難度就這個東西其實是改善的空間很大那希望你們能夠趕快把它當作是一個重要的事情"},{"start":7190.111,"end":7211.101,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":7211.141,"end":7212.242,"text":"主管核安全委員會主管核安全委員會"},{"start":7238.762,"end":7253.072,"text":"剛剛陳秀寶委員講到一個很重要的觀念就是說他是安全的那你更要講啊你不能說因為他安全的所以通通都不用講了你更要講啊不然的話漁民就第一個反應是說阿人日本都有蝦是怎麼人家都沒蝦你沒蝦你反而會讓漁民覺得說是不是有問題不然為什麼不敢講對不對你這個邏輯要反過來嘛好所以呢這個部分我們是不是我們現在來處理啦齁"},{"start":7267.325,"end":7291.257,"text":"您們要補充說明嗎?首先謝謝陳秀寶委員、林怡瑾委員、鄭麗文召委的一些意見。我想先請備援實驗室、中國核電廠廖組長說明一下簡短。謝謝。剛才陳秀寶委員特別提到備援實驗室,這部分我們會遵照委員的指示,就是會在組決議把完整的書面報告說明清楚,讓委員能夠了解。"},{"start":7292.057,"end":7314.394,"text":"另外林議警委也剛剛特別提到境外核災的部分事實上我們當時也有說除了中國大陸資訊包括美國、日本也有我們都有這個通年機制那這個部分因為凍結的這個預算是涉及這個例行的這個海域環境輻射偵測的資料是不是可以建議能夠予以免凍?謝謝謝謝那個日本寒川廢水那個平台揭露是不是張樹君組長?"},{"start":7317.076,"end":7317.216,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":7333.203,"end":7352.812,"text":"不只是這樣,你們那個網頁的設計就是很難嘛我就講過了這些漁民又不是像你們都是大博士你們要弄得非常的親民讓他能夠一目了然然後不是還要自己去下載檔案這個也難度太高了所以這樣好不好我們這一幕就著動50萬讓你們具體的改善一下我們剛剛說的這些東西小小的動一下50萬請說"},{"start":7362.038,"end":7362.998,"text":"復冊政策中心主任"},{"start":7383.188,"end":7387.371,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度"},{"start":7419.928,"end":7425.384,"text":"對,其實﹖所以我們的"},{"start":7432.472,"end":7453.231,"text":"我們所有的資訊都有上政府網頁公開平台我們所有資訊那因為委員特別重視這個所以我們本來是每季更新一次我們的數據啊每季現在我們會改成每月更新一次我們會有做不是我我我那天質詢你你有在嗎那七種我在那七種何種我們都有做不是人家日本是每天欸"},{"start":7454.543,"end":7476.572,"text":"他那個其他的沒有每天啦我老實說其中的兩個核種有每天啦所以你這個頻率能不能改善呢我就說嘛因為你這個我們的漁民看到日本的網頁跟我們的網頁這個落差太大了啊我們其實有協調漁業署齁跟所有的漁會去做溝通啦以前是譬如漁業署不會做這一塊現在一年大概他會做上百場的跟漁民的溝通"},{"start":7476.852,"end":7477.232,"text":"趙偉,我承諾要改善網頁,謝謝"},{"start":7498.067,"end":7498.407,"text":"第45案到50案"},{"start":7525.53,"end":7528.071,"text":"議員提出這案主要還是關心核廢料處理的問題,因為核廢料最終處置時程分為無階段,目前我們正在進行的是候選場址評選與核定,不過因為核廢料處置設施具有"},{"start":7550.123,"end":7553.147,"text":"委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會"},{"start":7567.285,"end":7568.806,"text":"第二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":7592.543,"end":7618.478,"text":"台電公司規劃說要在2033進行這個地下試驗設施的規劃與建構並且還要參與這個芬蘭的這個試運計畫剛好提到那參訪這個芬蘭的這個處置場那我想問的是說那我們台灣未來的這個核廢料最終處置有可能走芬蘭的這個安克羅模式嗎?"},{"start":7619.458,"end":7630.345,"text":"或請何安慧說明目前的評估,台灣適合用什麼樣的方式來處理核廢料的最終處置?"},{"start":7636.172,"end":7658.721,"text":"范雲委員第46案和第47案是希望核安會所進行的公民參與活動,不要僅止於訪查、說明會和座談會,希望能夠多辦一些地方性的審議式的民主工作坊。"},{"start":7659.321,"end":7682.684,"text":"因為審議社民主工作坊就能夠確保一個比較深度的公民的溝通那在資訊上也要確保就是民間團體學者專家能夠提供相關的意見那因為核安會改組後還是有監督放射性廢棄物最終處置計畫及應變方案的推動的職責所以我希望核安會可以參考國際的做法"},{"start":7683.344,"end":7708.385,"text":"在用過核子燃料最終處置的計畫上能夠強化有審議精神的審議是民主式的溝通方式而不是傳統的溝通方式那核安會跟我說明後願意往這個方向就是努力那所以這部分我就可以改成主決議那等核安會給我一些相關的書面報告"},{"start":7709.766,"end":7734.5,"text":"第47案是關於高放射性廢棄物選址應該先建置地下實驗室的這個內容因為我知道臺電過去曾經在花蓮縣秀林鄉選定地下實驗室可是即使是實驗當地的民眾就已經強烈反彈所以是失敗的所以我在這個提案的部分是希望說"},{"start":7736.101,"end":7738.723,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":7756.015,"end":7783.945,"text":"主管核安會提出如何改善現況、敦促台電如何進行完善、完整的跟公民的溝通還是需要建置地下實驗室的書面報告。如果可以做到的話,那這個部分我就可以改成主決議。以上兩岸,謝謝。李義景委員、范雲委員。我那個全民溝通的部分,我是不是請其次組長。"},{"start":7789.789,"end":7806.081,"text":"主席、各位委員有關於全民溝通的部分就陳如我剛才前面講的我們非常重視溝通這一塊尤其在放射性廢棄物處理這個當然怎麼凝聚這個全民的共識是非常重要的然後這部分我們有委託大學"},{"start":7806.681,"end":7819.309,"text":"議員會議長"},{"start":7820.707,"end":7841.363,"text":"事外乾除核廢料處置,最終處置場陳宏斌主長是,剛剛委員有提到關切還是地下處置案地下實驗室部分的確是我們一定會持續督促台電趕快去接觸把方法引進來趕快做"},{"start":7843.324,"end":7865.276,"text":"這一部分沒問題,我們一定會持續的督促目前處置國際上就是地質處置就是用地質的功能再加上人工的帳幣來達到目的這個是國際上幾乎都是這個方向也是我們在努力的方向"},{"start":7866.016,"end":7884.908,"text":"那就是說持續的跟台電公司一起往前走這個我們一定會繼續努力謝謝委員關心就是說我們的預算很少整個物管組預算非常少我是希望說能夠支持我們的預算請吳思堯委員補充每一年審預算就一定會講這一題"},{"start":7894.224,"end":7913.387,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":7914.161,"end":7920.004,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":7933.826,"end":7960.738,"text":"所以我做立委在這裡這麼多年也我知道它很難啦只是每一次就都一樣關關難過關關總是要過嘛那主委你要綜合再講一下要不然我大概這個案子上每一年的預算案都再提一次好那個謝謝吳委員然後那個這個在國際上也是非常困難的課題任何國家都是那麼最終處置場"},{"start":7961.978,"end":7990.349,"text":"其實在很多國家一兩個國家像芬蘭他們其實還在建制階段那麼也要很久的期程那麼如果是很好做那這個有一些工程的議題有一些自然條件的議題那麼還有社會溝通的議題那麼科學的議題跟社會溝通的議題連在一起有時候就是他互相的抵觸啦那麼還有地方政府的問題"},{"start":7991.289,"end":7998.851,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家"},{"start":8014.335,"end":8042.402,"text":"就以你們的專業提供你們的建議的處理方式或解決方案嗎?其實私底下我們會議非常的頻繁跟台建公司的管制會議幾乎每個議題幾乎都可以說到一個月一次就要見面討論一次然後每次就安排出來討論議題再安排下一次我們討論什麼都可以直接溝通所以你們討論了這麼多年同一個議題都沒有任何結果"},{"start":8042.902,"end":8043.483,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8060.406,"end":8077.871,"text":"我的意思就在這裡嘛這麼多年來大家都知道卡在哪一些問題上面嘛那你們每個月開會沒有意義啊啊不就喝茶聊天喔我的意思就是說你們有提出什麼積極具體的建議可行的還是你們覺得這就不可行然後就是積極見面開會讓交代的呢有沒有什麼具體的建議或者是"},{"start":8085.423,"end":8106.161,"text":"國際上有關...請覺得方案或者是應該往哪個方向去處理嗎?好,那個陳組長,你要強調那個設施的安全,地質條件的安全,建造的安全的這個部分,那個你剛才...我想這委員都已經很清楚了啦,就是說我們的預算編列就是做安全審查跟檢查。"},{"start":8107.142,"end":8107.582,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":8127.967,"end":8155.559,"text":"所以我其實我要藉這個機會講一下這已經是我的第8年的立委就是同樣的問題所以讓我們看到過去的政策我們使用核能核一、核二、核三它的集中是儲存到現在都還是在選址跟建制上有碰到這麼大的困難這應該讓台灣社會非常清楚的看到我們沒有本錢在針對未來的如果有人要重啟核四"},{"start":8156.599,"end":8171.51,"text":"前面的、眼前的問題都沒有辦法去解決了我覺得這是非常嚴肅的課題我希望大家在看待這個議題的時候不只我們在要求之前的事情因為它非常困難但我們能做的就是預防後面新生的"},{"start":8172.458,"end":8198.553,"text":"困擾跟不可能的任務我真的站在一個國會議員的立場我想要把這樣子從這個課題看到台灣在未來的要重啟核能的可能性那廢棄物儲存這些怎麼辦所以這是我們共同的課題我覺得這個部分是我們多要跟社會去論述跟溝通的這樣謝謝好所以你們打算怎麼處理"},{"start":8203.941,"end":8232.234,"text":"動結五十萬,上次是動結五十萬,你們提案的委員打算怎麼樣?動結五十萬嗎?動結二十萬,好。那就動結二十萬加書面報告。好。然後,四十五案、四十六案、四十七案、五十案是改成主決議。然後,第幾案?四十九案也是改成主決議。然後,主決議五十一案到六十八案。"},{"start":8234.246,"end":8260.811,"text":"主決議的部分51案遵照辦理52案建議修正文字53案到59案都是遵照辦理60案有建議修正文字61案到65案遵照辦理66案建議修正文字67案、68案遵照辦理接下來這個也是嗎不是只有這個到68案再來基金的部分是核子事故緊急應變基金"},{"start":8263.117,"end":8290.013,"text":"的第一案到第五案核子事故中央災害應變工作計畫第一案到第五案那有沒有人要發言沒有人要發言的話我們就照列然後第四案改成主決議第五案改成主決議然後接下來是"},{"start":8292.728,"end":8295.237,"text":"額﹑第六案。好,林玉琴委員"},{"start":8299.265,"end":8324.451,"text":"謝謝主席提出這一案的主要考量就是說如果說我們沒有辦法完全信任中國在平常就會提供比較完整跟符合國際標準的這個核能安全的監管資訊那也無法完全信任中國會在核災事故發生後的第一時間就跟我國通報的話那那麼除了中國以外的國際合作的串聯就相當的重要"},{"start":8325.411,"end":8349.697,"text":"我想跟核安會請教是說除了中國核災發生後的因應那核安會是否在日常就會有更積極的作為而例如說我們是否有跟其他的東亞國家的串聯要求中國提供更加透明開放的核電廠數據讓大家知道說中國核電廠究竟有沒有符合國際的安全的規範"},{"start":8351.938,"end":8353.799,"text":"二、繼續審查112年度及113年度行政法人國家原子"},{"start":8371.79,"end":8384.383,"text":"法國、美國、捷克都是跟台灣有相關合作的國家請教何安慧當鄰國或我國發生嚴重的核子事故的時候那這些條約跟協定它能夠發揮怎麼樣的效力"},{"start":8387.566,"end":8402.765,"text":"就像我們跟美國能源部簽署的意向聲明書來看美國是否就可以立即通報相關的技術資源的協助這個以上我想藉這個機會請何安慧回應一下請說明"},{"start":8405.59,"end":8425.577,"text":"謝謝林益錦委員那個首先這個中國核電廠這個我們每5分鐘定期在做環境的輻射評估那麼24小時不間斷的每5分鐘會傳到我們會裡面有一個核安的監管中心那麼在國際上面我們有駐IAEA的"},{"start":8426.357,"end":8428.379,"text":"主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":8446.974,"end":8451.339,"text":"是,謝謝委員這邊特別的提出這個問題就是我們剛才說我們除了這個部位我們在105年事實上也參加剛才主委特別提到OECD NEA就是核能屬的在國際組織的一個演練這個就是國際一起參與"},{"start":8462.13,"end":8462.45,"text":"李英琴委員"},{"start":8486.044,"end":8506.452,"text":"那我這樣就改主決議。好。那這個部分就照列。然後林益錦委員的改主決議。第六案改主決議。好。接下來第七案到第十一案的主決議。照案通過。然後接下來是國家原子能科技研究院的主決議一案也是照案通過。好。"},{"start":8511.474,"end":8516.096,"text":"那我們預算案改組決議的部分齁第三案6、12、13、14、18、22、23、25、26、27、28、31、36、37、38、40、42、44、45、46、47、49、50另外核子事故緊急應變基金的部分第四、第五、第六案這些預算案通通改成組決議請問各位委員有沒有意見好沒有意見我們就照案通過"},{"start":8543.749,"end":8544.169,"text":"能科技研究院"},{"start":8562.171,"end":8579.366,"text":"預算案已審查完略。不用交由黨團協商。關於今天會議作如下決議。113年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案全部審查完略。"},{"start":8583.548,"end":8600.076,"text":"能科技研究院預算案均審查完略拟據審查報告提報院會不須交由黨團協商。院會討論時由正召集委員立委補充說明。對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆的部分"},{"start":8601.216,"end":8624.544,"text":"請相關機關緊速已書面答覆本會主審中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算及非營業基金預算部分均已審查完略有關正式別稅出預算隨同以上機關別審查結果調整拟據審查報告並於12月5日含附財政委員會"},{"start":8625.684,"end":8631.667,"text":"審查結果需交由黨團協商。院會討論時由政招局委員立文補充說明。"},{"start":8654.61,"end":8655.131,"text":"最後一個審查案。"},{"start":8674.445,"end":8689.804,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會"}]}},{"id":"15327","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15327","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685a9f2818acb4c29c5ea5b031af9c32cfd46d53a332764a5352f51b53f3877eb8d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號28974）\n三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員洪申翰等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。（提案號10041896））","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-04","start_time":"2023-12-04T08:30:44+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第3次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-26,36-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-04T12:27:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14176,"委員發言時間":"08:30:44 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案。」現在介紹現場的委員以及列席官員。"},{"start":2194.281,"end":2203.765,"text":"委員吳逸勤委員（溫玉霞溫委員現在的列席官員名單是衛福部薛部長早法務部汪參事內政部護政司蘇檢任視察"},{"start":2224.54,"end":2250.355,"text":"司法院少年級家事廳徐法官行政院消費者保護會陳副處長行政院性別平等會鄧副處長謝謝蘇巧慧、蘇偉文也到現場了謝謝你們林楚茵、林委員也到現場了謝謝"},{"start":2255.852,"end":2269.919,"text":"現在請提案委員及黨團代表說明提案要址每位委員兩分鐘先以林楚茵林委員說明請"},{"start":2287.462,"end":2308.127,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁大家早安生育自由是聯合國人權公約所賦予的健康權之一也就是說自己有權來決定是否要生育繁衍後代不應受到法律的干預而這也是今天我們在這裡討論人工生殖法修法的價值那麼本人其實除了自己之前所提出的版本之外"},{"start":2308.607,"end":2324.269,"text":"也跟紅色漢委員有一個共同聯署的版本那麼有關於人工生殖法的修正希望在所有的人工生殖的技術底下加以保障同性配偶擁有人工生殖的權益這是本席一開始所提出來的修正案那麼同時在"},{"start":2325.61,"end":2347.913,"text":"紅身案的共同連署的版本底下我則主張也要增加單身女性享有生育自主權。司法院大法官解釋第748號解釋文施行在2019年就已經上路了。那麼已經明確的規範同性配偶締結婚姻的權益這是基於憲法平等權及婚姻自由權的保障。那麼如今施行"},{"start":2348.954,"end":2365.125,"text":"法律上路了三年多那麼同性配偶的升職權還在原地踏步那麼讓同性配偶必須忍受高成本、高風險到國外進行人工升職才能一元成家的夢想這是對同性配偶的歧視因此就是本席一開始在"},{"start":2365.885,"end":2389.871,"text":"而這個會期開始我就所提出的版本那麼當然另外有關於跟紅生漢委員在共同召開了公聽會之後我們也認為現在面臨少子化許多單身但是有能力的女性其實他們也可以擁有生育的自主權因此本席也提出了跟紅生漢共同連署的版本那麼希望在今天討論的時候能夠看到的不只是同性配偶"},{"start":2390.251,"end":2396.274,"text":"也可以讓單身的女性在求子之路不再備受艱辛而且感到遙遠。謝謝。有謝。謝謝。有請。現在先介紹剛剛出席的委員。謝一鳳謝委員、高嘉宇高委員。現在有請謝一鳳委員說明。"},{"start":2421.4,"end":2443.685,"text":"主席所有與會的委員我代表國民黨團以及本人的提案來做一個說明其實根據世界衛生組織的資料顯示育齡的女性發生不孕的比例是在8到12%但是我們國內生殖專家表示台灣不孕症的比例高達10到15%"},{"start":2446.285,"end":2463.874,"text":"當餘七對夫妻就有一對是不孕。多數不孕的家庭對於自然懷孕的機率過於高估而拖延了求助於生殖醫學的時間。所以根據我們衛福部的國建署110年對於人工生殖個案不孕的統計來講第一"},{"start":2466.215,"end":2494.369,"text":"就是因為女性的生理因素不孕症者合計為55.3%第二種是多種因素占32.2%第三就是男性不孕症占8.3%所以不管是試管嬰兒或者是人工受精都是透過醫學手段來幫助夫妻生育這都是那所以我們也希望說代理孕母是要圓滿不孕夫妻的天倫之樂的途徑之一那一直沒有受到重視但是"},{"start":2495.169,"end":2515.964,"text":"其實我們可以知道國際上其實有33個國家已經立法來規範並且沒有禁止代理育母的這個情況所以台灣目前的少子化的情況嚴重那我們近10年來的生育率都徘徊在1.1到1.2之間遠遠低於平均值那今年1月的時候尤其是已經跌破萬人"},{"start":2517.385,"end":2519.146,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":2542.25,"end":2564.022,"text":"本席從上任以來就十分關心人工生殖法的修法進度那這一次提出的版本裡面也確實注意到了在現行的人工生殖法裡面只有異性配偶能夠適用所以我的提案是希望能夠放寬實施人工生殖法的資格把同性配偶還有單身女性也能夠納入其中同時本席的版本"},{"start":2564.602,"end":2565.922,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":2588.749,"end":2607.541,"text":"另外就於這次草案放寬代理育母的議題本席也認為目前法律不明確的狀況下我國民眾如果要透過代理育母來生育只能到其他的國家尋求幫忙而且必須承受很大的風險如果國內想要放寬代理育母的限制也必須要有完善的法律規定謹慎的規劃管理還有監督的機制"},{"start":2610.503,"end":2613.764,"text":"而目前排審的草案沒有任何的制度設計如何去避免代孕者身體自主權遭剝削例如說代孕機構的管理規範如何設計治理結構是否平衡各方權利關係規範如何落實等等"},{"start":2629.651,"end":2630.231,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":2662.132,"end":2685.237,"text":"好,謝謝。下一位請吳信穎委員本席,我代表民眾黨在台上說明民眾黨黨團。台灣的總生殖率2020年起跌落低於1%以下,在全球排名倒數已經成為國安危機,若無法改善並嚴重影響台灣的未來人口以及產業結構,"},{"start":2687.298,"end":2708.108,"text":"一具歐洲人人權法院判決指出,歐洲人人權條約第8條私人生活的保障範圍內有包含想成為父母的意願。在台灣的司法院解釋第748號的實施法通過多年之後,去年也正式承認共同"},{"start":2709.375,"end":2711.376,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":2737.984,"end":2758.816,"text":"以無法反映現實社會的真實面貌也被傳統的道德理念限制現行法規以結婚與不孕作為人工生殖的前提限制了未婚婦女、不孕婦女願意付出以及同志家庭的生育可能不但與人權保障與身體自主的權利違背也無法阻止少子化"},{"start":2759.716,"end":2772.683,"text":"因此本席認為我們必須應對人工生殖法全面的討論檢視單身婦女及代理育母的問題所以提出以上人工生殖法條文修正草案。以上。現在介紹飛鴻泰委員"},{"start":2785.233,"end":2792.638,"text":"現在沒有其他的提案委員說明因列席部分部會眾多本次會議以衛福部、法務部、司法院以及行政院姓平會代表在台上說明"},{"start":2811.809,"end":2817.03,"text":"先有請衛福部薛部長說明現時間5分鐘其他3個機構各3分鐘謝謝主席、各位委員、女士先生今天是大院第10屆第8會期的社會福利及衛生環境委員會司法及法制委員會全體委員會會議召開的聯席會議"},{"start":2839.454,"end":2866.549,"text":"那審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。中國國民黨擬具的〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。委員吳秉叡等24人擬具的〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。委員林楚茵等19人擬具的〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具的〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":2867.289,"end":2887.266,"text":"委員洪聖翰等20人擬具的（人工生殖法部分條文修正草案（委員謝玉鳳等17人擬具的（人工生殖法部分條文修正草案等8案。本部呈要列舉來報告深感榮幸提出本部的意見,敬請各位委員不吝會議指教。"},{"start":2888.367,"end":2909.313,"text":"首先要說明一下衛福部對於這一個人工生殖法的一個修正秉持的態度是第一個我們是開放各種討論也就是說目前我們雖然還沒有提出這一個願板這一個"},{"start":2914.599,"end":2944.155,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":2944.675,"end":2969.171,"text":"議員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第11屆議員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆議員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆議員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆議員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆議員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖"},{"start":2972.314,"end":2993.676,"text":"不孕夫妻因為缺乏子宮或子宮不能生育的那這一些要開放代理孕母這樣的議題我們都會提出一個版本的內容供各界來討論但是並不表示說衛福部會有這樣子的一個既定的立場說要開放哪一個或不開放哪一個"},{"start":2995.278,"end":3019.691,"text":"現在這一個版本還在程序當中我們會秉持著非常謹慎的態度去擬定這個內容因為這裡面涉及的倫理、法律、對於第三人、對於兒童的權益的保障、兒童法律地位的保障這些都非常的複雜而且需要謹慎的去面對"},{"start":3020.872,"end":3039.336,"text":"對於今天所提出的修正公法案,修正的內容也包括了代孕生殖的合法化以及放寬人工生殖法適用的對象。本部的意見綜合說明如下,請各位委員考量。第一個有關台灣民眾黨112年"},{"start":3042.697,"end":3063.342,"text":"十月十八日所提的這一個人工生殖法部分條文修正草案那其中第十一條草案的第十一條開放夫妻單身者及成立司法院釋制第七四八號解釋施行法第二條關係的雙方當事人以下簡稱同分者施行人工生殖"},{"start":3064.722,"end":3066.904,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":3087.904,"end":3109.929,"text":"法院的認可作業會有一億。法院的認可程序也極為耗時。還是需要再進一步的討論。草案第18條之一委託大運生殖者的資格要件除了符合第11條一般受試者資格要件之外,僅需要至少的一方具我國國籍。"},{"start":3110.529,"end":3128.07,"text":"那跟93代理姻母公民公事會議及101年代孕制度公民審議會議達成的有條件開放先語,這個後天缺乏子宮或因病無法懷孕等人的共識有所不同,這部分也是有意義的。"},{"start":3128.63,"end":3149.583,"text":"那有關民眾黨黨團、國民黨黨團、委員吳秉叡等以及委員謝玉鳳等擬具的這個部分條文修正草案的第18條之五那代孕者代孕以婦制為原則得對代孕者提供酬金恐導致代孕的商業化這個也是婦女團體所擔心的"},{"start":3152.344,"end":3174.518,"text":"會剝削弱勢婦女指工工具化或商品化及助長女性傳送接待的壓力等問題。就民眾黨黨團委員林楚茵等19人以及高嘉宇委員分別擬具的這個部分條文修正草案方寬成立擬同分者適用人工生殖"},{"start":3175.539,"end":3189.911,"text":"再二、三條人工生殖子女法律地位規定將修正為配偶一屆。如果依照司法院釋字第七四八號解釋施行法第二條規定同性的當事人"},{"start":3191.232,"end":3219.175,"text":"那是成立具有親密性及排他性之永久結合關係那該條及24條之一婚姻關係是否涵蓋女同婚者恐有疑義所以該法也沒有使用配偶值用語且依該法系準用民法上配偶值相關規定故以配偶稱之是否就能夠涵蓋成立上開私性法第二條關係的女同婚者恐會有疑義"},{"start":3220.015,"end":3246.109,"text":"所以將導致人工生殖子女及代孕生殖子女的法律地位未明。最後我結語是本部針對修法開放的人工生殖法的適用對象包括單身女性、同性配偶、代孕生殖議題沒有這一個預設的立場所以我們會持續關注各界對此議題的看法採開放的態度"},{"start":3248.29,"end":3264.195,"text":"將就國際作法、我國民情、社會期待及兒童最佳利益等綜合評估。未來還會持續邀請醫療、父權、兒權、倫理、法律等相關領域的專家審慎研議人工生殖法的修正草案。"},{"start":3265.375,"end":3285.09,"text":"並收集各界的看法尋求共識以及依法制作業程序將修正草案報行政院審查最後才會送大院來審查本部曾答應各委員的指教監督在此精緻謝誠並請各位委員繼續予以支持謝謝謝謝部長下一位請法務部代表說明"},{"start":3302.129,"end":3323.118,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好今天奉邀列席貴委員會聯席會議就審查吳秉瑞委員等24人台灣民眾黨黨團以及林楚茵委員等19人委員高嘉瑜等24人洪勝翰委員等20人以及國民黨黨團"},{"start":3324.933,"end":3338.079,"text":"還有謝一鳳委員等17人（台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的（人工生殖法部分條文修正草案等8案（僅代表法務部列席（自提出報告進行指教。"},{"start":3339.79,"end":3356.04,"text":"大運委員、黨團分別擬具的（人工生殖法部分條文修正草案（內容涉及待運生殖的施行（待運者的權益保障（還有（待運者及待運生殖用詞（實施人工生殖的要件（"},{"start":3357.233,"end":3377.364,"text":"代孕者醫療紀錄以及通報規範還有瘦數者與代孕者的親等限制居間代孕規範單身者人工生殖子女之法律地位代孕子女的法律地位違反實施代孕生殖相關的法則等內容僅就涉及本部主管法律的部分提供意見"},{"start":3379.576,"end":3405.087,"text":"現行的人工生殖法第五章人工生殖子女之地位有相關規定已經明列各種人工生殖子女視為婚生子女的情形因此他的地位以及得視為婚生子女的情形都是依照人工生殖法的相關規定如果我國允許代孕生殖合法這個是政策決定本部競表尊重"},{"start":3406.877,"end":3433.888,"text":"至於如果相關修正草案擬納入同性配偶的人工生殖草案條文中如果有涉及配偶雙方包含同性以及異性在關係程序中所進行的人工生殖本部建議用語為婚姻或司法院釋字第748號解釋施行法第二條關係以致明確"},{"start":3436.673,"end":3462.875,"text":"至於人工生殖法適用範圍這個部分是涉及到醫學倫理、兒童權益、童性平權、父女權益等面向這個都需要相關領域的專家綜合評估我國的民情、社會期待以及兒童的身心發展以尋求最大共識但是這個都涉及到人工生殖政策的方向決定市社主管機關與大院的職權與決定"},{"start":3464.383,"end":3482.362,"text":"本部尊重主管機關的政策決定以及大院審議的結果。未來如果確立立法政策方向,本部將協助提供法治意見。以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教。謝謝。謝謝。有請司法院代表說明。"},{"start":3489.284,"end":3502.196,"text":"主席各位委員好司法院代表參加立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境司法法制委員會第3次聯席會議審查委員吳秉瑞等24人台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":3507.381,"end":3523.811,"text":"委員林楚茵等19人擬具委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具委員洪生翰等20人擬具國民黨黨團擬具委員謝依鳳等17人擬具台灣民眾黨擬具人工生殖法部分條文修正草案等8案"},{"start":3526.962,"end":3549.978,"text":"本院的意見如下那關於這個第8案的台灣民眾黨版草案第11條第一款的部分規定人工生殖契約應該要經過法院的認可那立法的理由是要參考民法親屬篇的收養規定但是這個未成年子女的收養是涉及子女的身份關係的改變"},{"start":3551.339,"end":3569.851,"text":"與養父母是發生法律上的親子關係而終止與他本身父母的權利義務關係那為了要保障他的最佳利益所以需要法院認可才生效力但是人工生殖他不同的是他是利用人工生殖的醫學方法是沒有辦法自然生育的"},{"start":3570.311,"end":3572.712,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":3597.29,"end":3611.989,"text":"至於代孕子女他出生後的相關權益本來是應該要在人工生殖法會有明文的規範以保障代孕子女的最佳利益但是不是以在當事人之間他沒有相關的增值之前就有法院介入"},{"start":3612.91,"end":3627.691,"text":"而且這個法院他在人工生殖契約訂令的時候就介入審查但是這個時候代孕子女他還沒有出生而且甚至沒有受胎他在法律上是沒有權利能力的沒有辦法確保代孕子女出生之後的權益"},{"start":3630.593,"end":3648.706,"text":"那至於代孕子女他出生了之後呢就依照本法的規定是為婚生子女依照民法親屬篇的規定就會發生權利義務的行使跟負擔他當然就會受有未成年子女最佳利益的保障跟自然生殖的子女是完全沒有不同的"},{"start":3650.017,"end":3665.653,"text":"况且我們依照這個草案第一條他增訂為了要使國民可以自由經營他家庭生活的權利那是這個本法制定的宗旨那修正理由是說要納入保障家庭權作為本法的意旨"},{"start":3666.454,"end":3689.589,"text":"那但是如果說現在就瘦數者他施行人工生殖增加了要向法院申請認可的這個要件的時候那這樣子其實會反而是增加了施行人工生殖的單身者異性婚姻夫妻還有同性有酒結合關係者他們自由去經營家庭權的不必要的限制而且創造了這些人"},{"start":3691.59,"end":3694.092,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":3710.512,"end":3725.612,"text":"待運契約是否以公證人作成公證書為成立要件?待運契約成立之後,堂友契約變更的需要是否要經過公證才能生法效?還有待運契約公證的時候,當事人是否親自到場?得否由代理人代為?這些事項。"},{"start":3727.093,"end":3745.7,"text":"至於關於提起受詐欺或脅迫的配偶,他可以提起代孕子女婚生否認之訴,還有他的除赤期間的部分。因為現行法已經有規定了,委員草案的部分有部分是跟現行法的規定有重疊,建起可能還要重新再整理一下。"},{"start":3747.028,"end":3749.951,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":3768.117,"end":3793.705,"text":"那至於這個法院依照瘦素夫妻或其他關係人請求依職權變更這個代孕子女探視權的部分那這個部分屬於契約自由原則本院是尊重的那只是說這個可以提起請求的利害關係人的範圍呢有到哪裡是不是有包括代孕者那還有約定代孕子女的利益是在指什麼利益的內涵呢我們還是要請見請釐清以上報告謝謝"},{"start":3800.895,"end":3802.785,"text":"謝謝,請行政院信評會代表說明。"},{"start":3815.579,"end":3838.838,"text":"主席、各位委員以及各位在場的先進,大家好。今天的會議審查有關委員及各黨團所提的人工生殖法部分條文修正草案共八案。法案的內容跟代孕女性與代孕子女的權益密切相關,一直以來都是行政院性別平等會委員關切的重要議題。"},{"start":3840.799,"end":3864.209,"text":"那僅就委員在立次會議討論時提醒幾點的一個注意事項首先針對實施代孕之醫療機構以及居間機構應該有適切的管制跟管理的機制例如禁止廣告跟罰則等等以避免代孕行為商品化若是婦女"},{"start":3865.009,"end":3866.53,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":3882.29,"end":3894.194,"text":"由於本案涉及醫療侵權倫理、代孕契約法律關係以及社會層面等等問題,行政院已經請貴府部徵詢各界意見周圍處理,薛部長剛剛也已經說明辦理情形。針對貴院委員及黨團所提的草案也分別針對以上的相關議題也徵定了規範處理,我們都敬表尊重。"},{"start":3911.46,"end":3929.661,"text":"以上簡要說明進行自教。謝謝。謝謝本會議各項相關書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報。現在開始詢答做以下宣告。"},{"start":3930.899,"end":3943.448,"text":"本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請於散會前提出與其不受理沒有休息時間預定預定中午休息然後一往列"},{"start":3959.392,"end":3966.235,"text":"審查法案不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員賴慧恩賴委員發言謝謝主席那個有請那個法務部部長、薛部長還有國建署那個"},{"start":3982.643,"end":3999.857,"text":"規務部有請行政單位,謝謝。是,還有法務部參事。有請法務部參事,謝謝。我先有一個問題請教法務部參事。這參事,這從你的書面報告裡頭,你特別有提出來就是說"},{"start":4012.56,"end":4013.4,"text":"﹐提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4033.57,"end":4033.93,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4061.127,"end":4061.667,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974"},{"start":4081.891,"end":4107.726,"text":"現在是必須政策先決定我們才有辦法做通盤的全盤的考量好所以現在政策還沒有決定嗎所以就是說法務部也沒有辦法去做一個全盤的考量是不是這個意思應該可以這麼說是不是應該是應該還是是還是不是你要回答的非常的正確"},{"start":4108.976,"end":4133.514,"text":"因為你是法務部啊。是。是嘛。好,謝謝。那接著就是說部長,再請教你,就是其實代理義母已經會籍了一個社會的公司,部長。那這個人工生殖法的一個修正案的在今天的排審,其實我想在社會大界、社會各界裡頭有那個支持的也有反對的。"},{"start":4134.395,"end":4134.635,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4152.523,"end":4153.084,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4177.008,"end":4177.509,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4193.464,"end":4194.245,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4211.335,"end":4237.042,"text":"還有就是擬性的身體會不會變成是一個工具的遺歷?針對的這一個部分部長請你說明你目前嚴厲的狀況是怎麼樣?那你怎麼消除民眾的這些遺歷呢?的確在大理運母這邊我必須要說目前社會還沒有共識而且是有非常尖銳的這個意見上面的一些對立"},{"start":4239.242,"end":4253.498,"text":"但是他是一個應該被討論的議題所以我們會提出將來如果說這一個版本我們也會提出有關於代孕的一個版本的內容供社會來討論"},{"start":4254.999,"end":4282.47,"text":"但是這並不代表說這個是衛福部的或者是行政院的最後的立場那因為這裡面涉及到的問題其實是蠻多的比方說剛剛委員提到的究竟這個代孕他是要有有償的還是公益的那這是一個問題第二個那剛剛委員也提也問到法務部"},{"start":4283.81,"end":4302.797,"text":"現在代孕在國外去做在國內是不合法但是有的就到國外去做他把小孩子生下來之後這小孩子的地位是怎麼樣?因為我們國內因為不承認有代孕是一個合法的所以這小孩子出來之後要怎麼樣變成"},{"start":4304.699,"end":4319.14,"text":"這一個當初去委託的這一對夫妻,他的這一個小孩。那我們目前走的是用民法,也就是說三人生那算三人的,還在那裡去收養。"},{"start":4322.45,"end":4345.276,"text":"幾乎現在只有這樣一條路。那國內就是沒有這個代理義母的一個法律性。就是說他在法律上的位階其實是沒有一個位階上的一個那個被承認的。那我再請教部長,那現在的一個狀況就是說在代理義母這一個修法裡頭有沒有辦過公聽會?"},{"start":4347.861,"end":4368.204,"text":"這個很久以前了,差不多也將近十幾二十年前,那時候有省議室的民主有辦過這樣子的一個公聽會。是,好,那部長謝謝,我想就是說其實在這整體的一個修法裡頭,我們面臨到了很多面向的一個困境,今天"},{"start":4368.704,"end":4369.784,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4396.573,"end":4406.764,"text":"﹑一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「"},{"start":4417.876,"end":4436,"text":"應該是說每一種,真的剛剛委員提到單身女性、同性的伴侶、代理母這些都各自有各自要去解決的問題。所以他必須要有一連串的配套各自去做配合才有可能。"},{"start":4439.341,"end":4444.385,"text":"講來講去都講不清楚,因為問題太多。那我接著請問署長,那個署長就是說你在補助那個試管嬰兒這個的費用的一個補助,那就是說我們增加了就是這兩年我們增加了1.3萬的新生兒,這個其實是一個非常正確的一個政策。"},{"start":4462.8,"end":4486.399,"text":"﹑一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法�"},{"start":4487.6,"end":4511.892,"text":"他就是他的機率高達八成那在臨床上補孕夫婦進行的一個生殖其實平均都要三次以上才能成功那你這樣子如果我們有很多醫學上的數據裡頭告訴我們那是不是40歲到45歲這個補助了三次這個是不是不夠呢有沒有辦法在研擬多加個兩次呢"},{"start":4513.939,"end":4530.351,"text":"應該這樣說啦齁 這個我們會一直在評估當中一直在因為根據這個醫學的進步齁那過去會定這個是跟大家跟生殖醫學會互談一些以專業的討論跟國際的他們的做法但是剛剛委員提到了那醫學的進步以後可能未來我們考量的是還是成功率跟風險的問題齁那這個東西都可以拿入未來所以還是要再跟雙方團體再討論評估"},{"start":4542.219,"end":4544.259,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4586.541,"end":4586.982,"text":"請部長。謝謝主席。"},{"start":4591.454,"end":4591.654,"text":"委員好"},{"start":4622.194,"end":4650.56,"text":"很多媒體也有報導,他說不少案例,甚至有很多的名人,經濟可以,他們都會到國外去尋求代理任務。實際上很多國家,剛剛有談到33個國家,他們都可以實行合法化。我們的民調幾乎也差不多有60幾個%,有六成,都是基期,但是我們的政府好像是比較保守一點,到目前為止,"},{"start":4651.523,"end":4661.751,"text":"三、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":4669.705,"end":4684.51,"text":"現在現在的一個障礙當然就是最大的就是對於代孕者也就是說這孕母本身那因為他要承受這個懷孕的風險那所以說對他的保護是不是足夠這是一個那第二個"},{"start":4685.87,"end":4709.907,"text":"會變成說女人的子宮被用來當成一種工具這種倫理道德上面的一個考量那第三個就是子女的這一個法律地位的問題那我剛剛回答那個賴委員的回答的時候我有提到說現在的狀況大概就是變成是這樣你請代孕者生下來在國外阿姊拿他回來拼這個來收養但是"},{"start":4712.048,"end":4737.327,"text":"很多的這個這種修法的版本或者是說國外的例子是他是用契約契約去解決這個問題然後代孕者跟這個夫妻這委託夫妻兩個去簽好這個契約但是這個契約本身是有一些問題的因為他是一個民事的契約民事的契約通常"},{"start":4738.408,"end":4740.891,"text":"委員林楚茵等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":4755.228,"end":4757.65,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4781.105,"end":4800.377,"text":"安全和合法的路他們走,我們不想想這條,只有說擔心這個擔心那個,外國也可以做啊,為什麼我們台灣就不可以做?我們不可以做,我們可以借助外國,他們是怎麼樣怎麼樣規範,那我們也來怎麼樣怎麼樣規範,我們把它定一個條法條,把它定規範,這樣不是好嗎?這樣不是可以幫助他們嗎?所以我委員報告就是這樣,我們綜合這一些我們收集到國際的資料,"},{"start":4807.881,"end":4824.562,"text":"你剛才說,二十幾年前開過公聽會,二十幾年到現在還要訂,還要開來開去,花太久了啦。這個社會,其實二十年來社會的狀況是有改變的。所以說,這個我覺得...現在大部分的六成人民都可以接受的啊,不是嗎?"},{"start":4826.865,"end":4847.56,"text":"我不敢講這麼武斷的話,說大部分都可以接受,這個還是需要民眾再來做,因為很多民眾其實並不太清楚這裏面的爭議點在哪裡,這並沒有那麼清楚,所以說我們覺得說﹖其實他們要人做代理義務,他自己也有心理準備,也不會說什麼"},{"start":4851.581,"end":4853.202,"text":"所以今天我們不提版本就是我們也不贊成"},{"start":4869.83,"end":4899.301,"text":"不是,我們還在討論在收集資料。哦,收集,要到30年還在收集啦。沒有啦,社會已經不一樣啦,所以你要處理的issue是不一樣的啦。我們更沒辦法像今天在這裡委員提的提案來去加以修正,就出言了,沒辦法。今天晚上,今天很多委員...委員提出來的案,老實說都是有他的不完整的地方啦,所以這也要坦白講啦。"},{"start":4899.781,"end":4901.863,"text":"人工生殖法的第21條,夫妻如果離婚的話,那麼人工形成的胚胎我們要把它銷毀,是不是這樣?"},{"start":4927.21,"end":4942.613,"text":"我請問,如果夫妻雙方都同意保留這個胚胎的話,為什麼一定要銷毀?這當然可以討論,如果雙方都同意,可以來討論。這個是可以考慮的,如果雙方都同意保留這個胚胎的話。第二個問題,"},{"start":4954.181,"end":4958.915,"text":"如果一方一方死亡的話那也是要強制銷毀對不對"},{"start":4960.987,"end":4967.25,"text":"現在可以改變嗎?因為現在你未婚還是同性,你都可以同意說可以人工啊,為什麼這個問題不發生改革?這個部分其實可以討論,因為已經有發生過幾個案子就是這樣,一方的死亡,也就是夫那邊的死亡了,那其他願意﹖有時候比如講啊,"},{"start":4987.8,"end":4990.909,"text":"三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":4995.37,"end":4996.831,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5017.691,"end":5019.332,"text":"五月份的時候我們說要去考察嘛,我們的九書中"},{"start":5045.844,"end":5053.468,"text":"一、委員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案．事由．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．"},{"start":5075.359,"end":5084.067,"text":"三、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．"},{"start":5095.798,"end":5117.806,"text":"對他們好嗎?這要跟委員報告,有兩點要澄清一下。第一點,辦公室要成立,這已經確定了,過幾天就會成立。基金呢?這基金將來,我們預定是要擴大到百億,但是今年是只有21億。"},{"start":5118.866,"end":5138.163,"text":"那這20億的話就是參照的就是英國的這種做法,在我們這邊叫做那個暫時性的支付。其實英國也是這樣,你是一隊,你先遊啊,讓你先用。用完,你如果好過好,他就併入他們的健保裡面。"},{"start":5140.905,"end":5141.845,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5159.15,"end":5161.491,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5186.724,"end":5200.271,"text":"那入到健保給付的項目的話,那還有一筆錢。那一筆錢明年的話是40幾億。但是咱的陳院長一說癌症基金明年5、20之前要法治化,結果現在是怎樣?消風又出現了。現在就先放...先放...沒問題,就是先放在健保裡面。"},{"start":5205.494,"end":5219.978,"text":"對,每年就是擬具在現場擬具就是擬具在現場就是擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在"},{"start":5232.222,"end":5233.502,"text":"下一位有請蘇喬惠、蘇偉仁"},{"start":5264.775,"end":5269.297,"text":"好,謝謝主席。請學部長,等你去處理門。就請部長,我做貼心的。謝謝委員"},{"start":5275.401,"end":5294.418,"text":"好部長好部長欸我覺得剛剛齁這個欸吳委員在質詢的這個包括像癌症新藥的題目我也非常非常的關心跟您就教過很多次了但是其實我覺得欸我們其實在這個明年齁上一次你說到政府要擴大醫療投資的這個部分其實我們"},{"start":5295.319,"end":5296.22,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5310.937,"end":5328.38,"text":"提高護理人員的診察費、津貼等相關的勞務費用就有46.59億。兒童急重症的照護、診察相關勞務費用也共4.61億。這就是持續投資醫事人員嘛。那在這個癌症新藥的部分其實也有在裡面啊不是嗎部長?"},{"start":5329.201,"end":5349.098,"text":"有嘛對不對所以這麼多的一直大家在主張的要照顧醫事人員投資醫護人員就是投資台灣健康這端子也在講的嘛你都有做到政府都有做到但我覺得宣傳實在太少啦宣傳實在太少我們投注了資本讓"},{"start":5350.759,"end":5374.426,"text":"醫護人員醫事人員可以更得到更多的照顧那以及大家關心的面向這個實在是應該多做宣傳不然的話齁你看連國會議員都沒什麼情策這我覺得很可笑的啦博長你覺得呢?對啦這其實齁我剛才講20個那些是新要的戰士性支付但是如果包括這些被核准已經放到了齁"},{"start":5375.126,"end":5375.166,"text":"對阿﹗對阿﹗"},{"start":5391.61,"end":5393.471,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5413.003,"end":5441.442,"text":"護理師人員的出走潮已經大幅減緩明明內文是這樣可是標題還是跟你寫說護理師還在出走啦這樣我覺得真的是標題殺人我覺得這很可惜啦所以第一個我是延續著前面我是希望說衛福部在社會關注的重大議題的這些事情你做到的部分應該要再加強宣傳這是第一點好那第二我們回來今天的人工生殖法的這個部分我也是跟部長就教啦"},{"start":5442.383,"end":5444.043,"text":"提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5470.748,"end":5484.858,"text":"兩十年來的社會變遷讓現在適合生育年齡的單身女性其實是比例增高非常的多這是事實嘛大家都必須承認社會現況就是是這樣所以我們"},{"start":5485.598,"end":5507.621,"text":"要討論人工生殖法裡面剛剛相關的不管是代理孕母也好或者是這種單身女性是不是可以這種做人工生殖的這些部分確實它有越來越高的迫切性這個部長你應該也同意吧的確啦因為現在很多婚姻那在離婚率上面也是"},{"start":5508.829,"end":5509.269,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5527.466,"end":5542.455,"text":"那這兩者在現在的社會上面其實是佔了人數蠻高的但是如果他們想要有小孩自己的小孩我是覺得這個也沒有什麼太大的理由去"},{"start":5544.276,"end":5547.557,"text":"一、委員林楚茵等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":5565.282,"end":5567.183,"text":"三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":5574.528,"end":5575.729,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5595.822,"end":5616.405,"text":"是啦!所以你如果從這個面向來講你會覺得欸這個我們為什麼要禁止你會覺得欸好像哪裡就卡住了嘛對不對這是第一個狀態不過我們也承認啦齁就是以剛剛前面幾位委員提出來的例子就是說如果是一個呃一個受胚胎一個胚胎了啦不是卵胚胎那"},{"start":5617.266,"end":5635.512,"text":"離婚之後那他是否還適合成長成為一個生命如果夫妻兩方之間有人不同意的話那他還適合嗎那適不適合的原因是在於因為這個生命誕生之後在社會上他有非常多的法律關係存在這就不是只是給予他生命這樣子的一個簡單的狀況了嘛"},{"start":5636.812,"end":5637.233,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5657.274,"end":5665.736,"text":"倫理、法律對第三人權益、對兒童的權益保護都非常複雜且需慎重處理所以衛福部沒有預設立場開放討論我把你逐字抄錄下來這就是現在衛福部的態度嘛對不對所以我認為是這樣我認為今天只有這幾個部會其實完全不夠"},{"start":5677.839,"end":5699.929,"text":"因為這件事情真的牽涉的面向太多了。它不是只是一個製造生命的過程。它是這個生命誕生之後還牽涉到不只是這個個體甚至是兩個家族嗎?它是不是需要有家族甚至是第三方等等有太多的問題。所以我贊成你說應該要慎重考慮啦。但是這個考慮到底要考慮多久?"},{"start":5701.248,"end":5723.721,"text":"我是覺得至少你要有一些對外的一些收集意見的機制比方說比較正式的是由委員會來開公聽會那可能一次還不夠因為這裡面的issue太多了可能要幾次分別對不同的issue去做處理"},{"start":5724.381,"end":5747.153,"text":"那把這些各界的這一個意見收集過來之後的話而且它是一個正式的一個管道那出來的這一個不然有沒有共識才可以說在我們審查這一個法案的時候作為比較好的一個參考的"},{"start":5747.433,"end":5769.514,"text":"對阿我是肯定你今天願意採這樣開放的態度啦因為表示你這樣其實能夠回應到社會的需求啦不過我是認為齁真的這個需求的聲音是蠻大的那我也希望這樣你剛剛說的這個步驟如果真的是需要這樣的一個步驟我也同意要有個正式的全面的收集管道但這個期程一定要加快阿這是本席的意見啦當然是這樣子好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":5777.222,"end":5778.303,"text":"有請吳益勤委員有請部長"},{"start":5794.744,"end":5820.203,"text":"委員好部長早今天有兩個等於是有三個議題要跟您再做一個討論有關下一個就是特需兒少的一個視覺互能的這個部分要特別謝謝衛福部因為這個部分在上個禮拜一我們臺大兒童醫院我們舉辦的這個特殊兒童及青少年的視覺互能計畫的成果發表"},{"start":5820.863,"end":5846.922,"text":"那在這個特殊需求遠科的部分我們真的是過去又努力了6年來推動這個有關這個視覺負能的一個包括一個管理中心4個據點那希望在北中南東都有那現在就是已經有台大來協助我們當這個管理中心那那天的一個成果發表也提到有超過600個家庭受益"},{"start":5849.324,"end":5849.584,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5876.398,"end":5876.738,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5898.155,"end":5911.204,"text":"三、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":5927.415,"end":5928.376,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5944.99,"end":5967.002,"text":"對一些特殊的孩子或是智能障礙的孩子他有時候你根本搞不清楚他到底發生了什麼事是因為視覺的問題還是智力的問題後來經過眼科的特殊眼科的協助去幫他解決問題解決摘出問題之後還可以幫忙他復能我覺得這非常非常重要所以"},{"start":5967.382,"end":5982.573,"text":"要來跟部長拜託的是說有關這樣的一個特需兒少的視覺賦能計畫我們可不可以加倍?報委員這一個本來今年是5家嘛明年我們會增加到10家那本來收案是750名明年會到1600名門診會從350診增加到800診"},{"start":5995.987,"end":5996.668,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":6016.283,"end":6016.823,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974"},{"start":6035.116,"end":6060.552,"text":"表示說一整只能看兩個所以你如果要做外展服務的話從這邊去抽掉人力出去的話可能會有問題所以如果要做外展服務可能要另外有計劃所以這是不是也一併來考慮因為我們看到那天的報告裡面其實在偏鄉上台東地區他們是做了蠻多外展的服務甚至到綠島去做篩檢所以我覺得他有一些"},{"start":6061.292,"end":6061.913,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":6079.775,"end":6086.376,"text":"好謝謝那下一頁我上上禮11月24號謝謝部長我在詢問就有關營養餐飲服務的部分那謝謝終於在11月28號部長有回應了我們營養餐飲的部分對於1.5倍到2.5倍的施養者中低收入戶的一個補助這個謝謝部長回應不然我們當時整個這大概很多服務團體都要"},{"start":6107.12,"end":6107.78,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":6135.489,"end":6135.829,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":6166.045,"end":6192.558,"text":"接下來要跟部長討論的是今天的一個主題人工生殖法我想這個我看到這個新聞的時候大概就是我們吳昭君吳處長在說要修這個人工生殖法的時候當然團體就有人出來有些不同的意見那我其實在看剛剛部長的一個報告裡面其實93年就有代理孕母的公民共識會議"},{"start":6193.899,"end":6215.129,"text":"一百零一年待運制度公民審議會議都有已經十年二十年前了那整個次代或所謂的這個環境應該要再改變你們最近有開公聽會嗎還沒有對吧署長就立刻說要修法這十年來的變化有掌握嗎"},{"start":6216.537,"end":6228.671,"text":"跟委員報告,其實修法跟公聽會這兩個的先後次序都是可以的,並沒有說必須啦。你先有一個草案的出稿出來,公聽會是會比較好討論啦。"},{"start":6231.835,"end":6258.434,"text":"好,因為部長您也是學法的所以我要問你,剛其實法務部的報告裡面就有提到嘛一、我們人工生殖法裡面規定那個當然就是我們人工生殖法裡面出生的孩子當然就是視為分生子女嘛但民法裡面有規定嘛這個親子關係是以生母與子女有自然之分娩逝死的血緣關係"},{"start":6259.915,"end":6260.796,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":6275.094,"end":6276.596,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":6298.177,"end":6318.831,"text":"是否需要配合修法這要看最後採的是什麼樣的一個方式目前世界上大概有兩種方式去認定這個子女代孕的子女的身份第一個像德國那邊的話他就是仍然代孕者即生所重出"},{"start":6319.491,"end":6341.427,"text":"他生的那個是媽媽然後這個委託的夫妻再去再去收養用收養的方式但是大部分可能都是用契約就是先訂好那這個未來的話那這個就是我的小孩是那像這樣的契約我們政府要不要相當的規範"},{"start":6342.668,"end":6364.682,"text":"這個契約的規範是非常非常複雜的一件事情我剛剛提到的這裡面是這個契約到底他的對行為的強制到什麼樣的程度比方說這個契約裡面就可能會談到說你在這個代孕者在這個代孕這一個懷孕期間"},{"start":6365.182,"end":6365.502,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":6380.509,"end":6381.089,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974"},{"start":6395.898,"end":6415.21,"text":"還是有一些他可能還不夠周延的部分。聽起來是需要更周延的一個相關法律還有整個可能有相關的配套措施要一併來思考。不是只有說我們人工生殖法這麼單一的一個。我們同意代理孕母就好。因為如果真的要同意代理孕母的話後面有許多的配套必須要去處理。"},{"start":6416.371,"end":6435.542,"text":"所以最後還是我相信這個人工生殖法不只是當然也不只是代理義母這個議題而已其實還有單身女性還有同婚的議題那這個有點程式上是不太一樣所以也有很多不同的聲音所以我想我們還是很期望說我們立法院有沒有機會開公聽會讓這個事情10年了應該要再10年應該要再重新開公聽會讓大家有一個"},{"start":6443.447,"end":6443.627,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974"},{"start":6473.59,"end":6478.592,"text":"下一位請飛鴻太妃﹑秋泰元﹑秋泰元﹑秋委員趙偉拍攝﹑好﹑我們"},{"start":6503.128,"end":6531.492,"text":"呃那個請部長好了來我們謝謝主席齁那個有請部長辛苦了阿文好這表示咖啡不夠好齁用剛剛那一張好了齁先前面那一張部長我兩在進入今天的主題之前有兩個事情跟你請教跟你請教"},{"start":6533.55,"end":6545.733,"text":"昨天早上有兩個記者會在進行一個是台灣醫院協會發起的還有醫師公會前年會、私立醫院協會、台灣醫務管理協會聯絡人是洪子仁理事長、吳明彥律師長等等"},{"start":6562.203,"end":6578.486,"text":"針對我們行政院核定健保的點子比較低落一點為了提高醫療機構的韌性、優化醫療環境用公務預算來補我們健保會"},{"start":6591.078,"end":6618.556,"text":"非醫療代表也是有抗議我想站在我是要重申,感覺上其實這是一個制度上讓我們一直很心痛的地方為什麼我們共同在關心台灣人民的健康會有這樣的制度涉及到美式從健保會站到社會一定要這樣子嗎?"},{"start":6621.932,"end":6650.365,"text":"那站在因為我也是醫學院的教授我至少教過一兩千個以幾千個那個台大醫學系的學生當然還有其他醫學院學生我們都要去上課我們期待的就是他能夠堅守醫療核心價值發揮專業然後醫療環境未來工作環境有一個可以給他發揮的我想他們的心就是這樣子在做那"},{"start":6651.604,"end":6678.417,"text":"在健保的制度之下,當他們做一塊可能只有0.7、0.8。這是一回事,如果影響到醫療院所沒辦法運作下去,到底是誰的損失?人民有沒有知道說我們健保的保惠是怎麼樣的一個組成?他其實也是有不管政府也有補助等等的這些。"},{"start":6679.209,"end":6693.621,"text":"那其實最終也是政府在照顧人民,政府也很用心,所以政府是有責任來把這件事情做好。那這一次非常有爭議的一個舉動來挽救我們醫療院所的一個運作,這是對人民的幸福。"},{"start":6701.436,"end":6715.554,"text":"我覺得未來怎麼樣應該要研究因為我看過兩個月的憲法委員我當了委員好像我當了立委以後就辭掉但是那兩三個月可以說是憲法會是回頭回頭的"},{"start":6720.034,"end":6749.063,"text":"我想我們所有的代表美術區都真的可能是幾天睡不著覺何必這樣子一個好好的來談說到底要給我們有多少經費啊人民的需求是在哪裡我們共同來meet這樣來做不是很好的事情嗎這部分我個人還是覺得當然站在不同的角度來思考有不同的想法我這個我都知道但是最終是人民的健康有沒有得到好的啊你說好吧醫療體系有浪費"},{"start":6750.134,"end":6779.654,"text":"那你健保會不是督促很久了嗎?健保署也督促很久了嗎?那為什麼這個還會浪費?那是不是都是待夫指手?對不對?不能用這個理由說醫療體系在浪費,浪費是制度不好啊。我們剛才講你把安寧療護做好一點,你把居家醫療做好一點,可以節省多少不必要的那個才是真正不需要的醫療費用。那個這才是制度的改善,這幾年改善的非常好啊。"},{"start":6780.345,"end":6798.576,"text":"所以我們的制度已經是世界國際級的,可是我們的糧草卻不夠。我想這個部分可能,我想社會各界要去了解醫師、醫療團體是絕對每天日日一日用心要照顧民眾,但是總不能讓他"},{"start":6803.524,"end":6826.596,"text":"吃不飽醫療院所沒有辦法請足夠的專業人力,最後是不好的。布小副長你可不可以簡單回應一下?因為時間有關係。其實是這一次當然有兩件事情是同時我們做了處理。第一個就是因為這個COVID由法定傳染病降為這個第5級變成第4級。"},{"start":6830.638,"end":6857.318,"text":"那變成這個他的醫療費用就不再由公務預算來支出而回到健保那造成了點子的滑落這是一件事情那第二件事情當然就明年的總額那我們這個合定那成長到4.7%這兩件事情那這兩件事情第一件事情那個是非預期的法律的改變造成的那這個風險本來就是有"},{"start":6859.56,"end":6879.253,"text":"有這樣子的一個制度設計,但是裡面的預算太少,因為只有8億,所以不足。所以才動之到這一個公務預算注入、預注到這個健保基金的這一個部分。那這個部分的話,會引起爭議的原因是"},{"start":6880.854,"end":6901.67,"text":"我們平常以往沒有說公務預算直接去預註健保基金這種事情是從今年240億才開始的那往後可能每年都還有這一個200億那這些其實這個行政院預註進來的時候並沒有指定說他只能放在安全準備"},{"start":6903.291,"end":6928.054,"text":"也就是說它的用途並沒有特別去做設計。那這時候我們...市長,你簡單講一下,我出幾分錢了。我們剛才這個問題是拿來用應該是不算違法的問題,而且是合情合理啦。我想非常支持鋪長所說的啦,以及我也敬佩我們政府有膽量,有魄力。"},{"start":6929.556,"end":6955.825,"text":"來維護我們人民的健康,我想這個要給他們最大的掌聲。至於各個意見,我們也應該都來聽。那聽了以後,就是改善未來的一個制度跟協商相關的機制。真的讓人民的健康、權益不要受到損傷。好,那第二個張圖好了。這個謝謝部長。第二個我還是謝謝部長,前兩天跟我們衛環團隊,到埔統去做了非常詳盡的"},{"start":6957.645,"end":6975.616,"text":"不管是在衛福部的領域、環境部的領域我們在那邊也感謝我跟部長都一起共同來感謝我們有醫療的同仁願意在偏鄉當然不只澎湖島在離島各方面都很辛苦部長也在那邊充分的表達對他們的支持"},{"start":6976.55,"end":6992.547,"text":"那這個給他們鼓勵,那將來當然看起來集中症的一個硬體一直在增加,軟體怎麼增加這個部長承受很大的壓力,尤其我們楊耀維督促得非常急迫"},{"start":6994.553,"end":7011.244,"text":"另外我還是要提醒我們在山地離島還是不要只有集中症,怎麼樣讓他在每一個年齡層,我們禮拜三要審國民營養,每一個年齡層的營養要怎麼去處理,以及預防保健。"},{"start":7012.972,"end":7038.852,"text":"那個推廣,像我自己的小孩,我也沒有走長得很高,我的男生小孩都是180,女生174,走水都大家走到,我說要吃,我就吃得比較好,住在河口旁邊,就鈴聲響趕快衝過去,睡到很飽,吃到飽睡到飽,睡到大汗,那個預防保健推廣,"},{"start":7040.113,"end":7068.246,"text":"也是每個年齡層都要做的。我想阿伯要把各個地方、每個鄉鎮、每個鄉鎮都要集中症,可是人員他的片段性他是需要。但是讓他預防保健,讓他不要生病才是重要。這也是新加坡的總理李昇龍有一次在對全國的醫政會、國政會特別強調希望每一個人都要去做預防保健,都要把營養照顧好,不要讓家人擔心。"},{"start":7069.451,"end":7095.636,"text":"你會生病這樣子啦齁那我們感謝部長啦齁好那因為時間關係我們快的帶過去今天的主題齁那個有關於少子化的一個問題齁我想今天要台灣的主題跟少子化有一點關係我們都希望要生的人可以可以社會做好的環境生的啦啊即使我們每一個人都旁邊都有很多因為生不出小孩那種痛苦的經歷"},{"start":7097.028,"end":7124.999,"text":"那個真的是已經就是會加破了不是一道人亡但是真的會加破我覺得站在醫療立場我們絕對一定要全力來幫忙要生的人怎麼樣要生那整體國家來講就是一個少子化的一個困境的話大家過去幾天一直在努力我今天沒時間我就請衛福部就回答我這一張用書面回答我這一張好不好因為這是婦產科的建議我想蠻詳盡的蠻周全的來解決少子化的問題請問下一張"},{"start":7127.588,"end":7156.117,"text":"那這個部分,今天的部分齁,大概婦產科醫學會也有他的建議啦齁當然我也那個,婦產科也有提到一些修齁,一些修法的一個擔心齁,那這個修法的擔心我想今天都有討論我就不請教了齁,右邊這個啊,我只是表達說婦產科醫學會他們的專家齁當然都是整天在處理這些事情的嘛齁,他們也了解到社會有期待"},{"start":7157.148,"end":7182.59,"text":"但是分委怎麼樣一步一步來推展,是不是能夠分階段大家來努力。我想真的很感佩我們召委跟各位委員、行政部門共同來討論,這個真的很重要,也是人所需要的事情。但是我們怎麼樣讓他做得更有共識、更合乎倫理、更合乎法律怎麼樣來配合,我想未來我會支持。"},{"start":7183.371,"end":7203.974,"text":"我們都趕快來做公聽會,趕快把這件事情做一個很積極的來看看討論進行。這樣部長,這是,這個不用那個人,你給他回答,那個頭上那個梳子花,那就是我的分享跟建議。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席,謝謝。謝謝邱太元學委員,下一位請徐志勇學委員。"},{"start":7215.084,"end":7228.03,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請謝部長。有請部長,謝謝。這個上上禮拜跟邱委員,邱少偉講的,你還是讓副總統候選人站起來了。"},{"start":7231.749,"end":7255.356,"text":"不管如何,我們未完委員會有個召委在這次的選舉當這個副總統的候選人我們所有的未完委員會的成員應該被感激又濃煙不管選舉如何特別剩下40天還是41天左右召委還可以在這麼繁忙的選舉"},{"start":7257.273,"end":7270.242,"text":"行程當中可以在這邊主持會議對他的敬業應該也表示非常高的肯定。部長今天我們審查這個人工生殖法"},{"start":7273.151,"end":7296.93,"text":"如果通過的話當然我想對於這個少子化多多少少都會有幫助啦應該新的baby都會出來但是我們也不能因為對少子化有所注意我們就草草通過這個案子這應該是基本上的這個立場提到這個少子化我們在"},{"start":7298.271,"end":7322.01,"text":"一百零六年以來幾乎我們的新生兒的出生人數可以說幾乎都低於二十萬人差不多每年都一萬一萬的在減少我們就舉這個今年來講可能不到十四萬人明年也有可能不到十三萬人可能啦當然"},{"start":7323.12,"end":7343.369,"text":"明年農年也許會。也可能啦,農年可能會。但是都是,趨勢都是比較往下啦。當然少子化都會帶來很多的影響,我們也不必在這邊討論啦。各行各業的切工啊,譬如說阿兵哥兵員的短缺啊,大學都要關門啊,勞保健保。"},{"start":7343.849,"end":7346.993,"text":"三、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":7362.421,"end":7379.324,"text":"人工生殖技術的經費在112年是有27億多113年變成減少了乘下26億多但是在我們的成果看起來確實是有成果的有效的"},{"start":7381.062,"end":7404.844,"text":"眾統在這邊是疑問是說,既然我們這個計畫是有成果有效的,為什麼我們明年的預算反而比今年的少,113年的比將近少了快一億元?是因為111、112的執行上面執行率的關係還是怎麼樣才會變成比較少?"},{"start":7407.261,"end":7422.91,"text":"應該不是執行率的關係,因為執行率一直都不錯,而是說我們去做退估的時候是用之前的那幾年的這個試管嬰兒的人數去推的啦,那所以退估起來的話大概"},{"start":7425.736,"end":7448.267,"text":"我們還是算每年是補助差不多4萬2千人,這樣去做推估了。實際上會來接受這個補助的,那當然是情況而定。那我也是有一點擔心,剛剛委員提到明年如果是農年的話,也許他退休會比較高一點。"},{"start":7450.348,"end":7476.628,"text":"不過如果是明年要生的可能有一半以上是今年就已經補了已經做出了所以等到明年才會出生的那年初的時候也許也會有不少所以我們會評估然後就滾動式的去做檢討如果有需要那增加預算的話我們循這個預算程序我們是認為說對於解決少子化的問題我們應該"},{"start":7478.209,"end":7503.016,"text":"無所不用其極的這些種種的方式比如說就是我們沒有把預算減少的話我們還是保持原來的預算的話甚至於對補助的經費怎麼樣提高還是怎麼樣更去鼓勵讓一些不能自然懷孕的一些夫妻也可以有他們心愛的這個小baby這是應該我們大家一起來努力的"},{"start":7504.296,"end":7519.357,"text":"還有第二個問題就是說這個報紙前幾天也登的蠻大的就是我們台北市醫學中心洗牌好像說從來以前都沒有這個這個把誰哪家醫院擠下來的"},{"start":7520.919,"end":7535.414,"text":"部長您知道這個結果公告了嗎?還沒。我還沒有看到正式的這個公告。所以部長您也還不知道結果?一方面還沒有公布,一方面您也還不知道這個結果?對。"},{"start":7536.835,"end":7556.25,"text":"但是消息外面都知道了所以我們現在要請醫車會進入去做這個查查因為這些委員都有簽保密協定所以訊息怎麼樣漏出去的這個我們還是必須要做調查"},{"start":7557.392,"end":7577.184,"text":"對,應該要做調查,甚至於應該怎麼樣去懲處,應該都要這樣子。這個好像就是這個通風報信,這個報好消息啦。如果說沒有去影響到結果的話,影響到評鑑的這個過程的話,我是覺得還OK啦。"},{"start":7577.924,"end":7601.407,"text":"但是已經說公平評鑑出來了,你就提早去報這個假消息,台北慈濟他又很高興,他又講說他接到很多電話,這會不會到時候曝光死啊?這個是評鑑的分數怎麼樣就怎麼樣,我們也不會再去做一個更動,但是這還有其他的參考的那個"},{"start":7605.794,"end":7617.34,"text":"這個我還沒有接到那個最後的這一個結果的這種公文我還沒有接到這一個不過就是說我們從"},{"start":7619.896,"end":7642.933,"text":"從另外一個角度去看這個平建的改革是在SARS之後那時候我是當醫事處長所以我大概全盤都了解說當時是怎麼樣去做設計的那現在已經又過了20年了其實這些平建的制度裡面有一些可能不是很合時代"},{"start":7643.833,"end":7666.759,"text":"在當時認為是比較重要的政策要去推,現在可能沒有了。我瞭解,我不希望副總統何顯然站起來。公務員跟非公務員他這個洩密罪大家都知道了,也規範的在刑法132條都規定的很清楚了。那個也是蠻嚴重的。我是想說,我們一定就是要"},{"start":7667.419,"end":7668.86,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":7682.788,"end":7699.204,"text":"何必要擠下哪一家呢?讓它變成9家不行嗎?我的自己的疑惑是這樣子。該委員報告齁,這也是我們我剛剛在提的說我們即將啟動的這個醫學這個評鑑的改革的部分的話我們會考慮這一點。因為事實上從當時去訂說200萬人口有一家醫學中心,剛開始訂的時候"},{"start":7707.572,"end":7719.541,"text":"臺北區就超過了。臺北區一直是8家,但是臺北區的人口現在7、8百萬。所以一開始就超過了。那未來還需不需要有這樣的限制,我們是會去做檢討。謝謝徐委員。下一位請洪森和洪委員。"},{"start":7744.753,"end":7746.654,"text":"學部長有請部長委員好部長我們今天委員會的主題是這個人工生殖法的修法那我想這部法其實從2007年到現在其實已經算起來已經有16年其實沒有好好的來討論"},{"start":7770.786,"end":7778.332,"text":"三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":7791.903,"end":7792.763,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":7814.671,"end":7841.191,"text":"那一直到今天其實我們看到衛福部的布板的草案其實一直都沒有我必須認真說我認為這個進度真的是太慢了不想今年在我在今年的10月3號的時候其實就已經針對單身女性跟女同志的配偶使用人工生殖的技術的議題我們其實就已經開過公聽會那很可惜當時其實國建署其實也是沒有給出一個明確的修法的時程"},{"start":7842.312,"end":7842.913,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":7859.369,"end":7860.49,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":7884.301,"end":7906.836,"text":"所以部長其實我們都知道其實台灣的試管的那個著床成功率是世界數一數二的可是我們本國級的年輕人想生小孩的年輕人卻還是要因為性傾向跟婚姻狀態被排除在外我自己認為這是一件蠻不合理的事情所以部長我想跟部長分享"},{"start":7907.757,"end":7931.593,"text":"其實現在我們有很多人的觀念真的跟過去真的已經有很多不同了那異性戀雙方合意結婚生下的小孩我說實話在很多案例裡面也沒有辦法保證一定都健康快樂幸福快樂但單親家庭的小孩同志配偶收養的小孩看起來也是有機會可以幸福美滿部長你覺得?"},{"start":7933.592,"end":7961.31,"text":"沒有錯啦,這其實是小孩子他成長過程是否可以這個非常快樂的成長即使跟這個是否為單親或者是這個有父母的或者是同性是否同性的不一定有這樣子完全的一個關係部長我完全同意在這方面當然我們如果可以把配套做得更周全更好"},{"start":7961.85,"end":7962.55,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":7981.517,"end":8002.297,"text":"第二部長,我想跟你再分享幾個數據這幾個數據是衛福部在2021年公布的婦女生活狀況調查裡面我們看到的數據有同居伴侶的婦女其實高達41.2%表達不想進入婚姻關係但想要有固定伴侶離過婚的婦女有31%"},{"start":8007.307,"end":8024.794,"text":"三十點一不想進入婚姻關係但是想要有固定伴侶這代表什麼呢這些女性其實在法律上面目前都被視為叫做單身女性也就是她們是直接被人工生殖法排除在外的那這些她們可能跟我同鄉"},{"start":8026.115,"end":8027.937,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":8048.991,"end":8078.491,"text":"那包括我們看到這個國際的生育聯合會裡面他們的調查報告90個國家裡面在77個回報的國家有49個國家已經允許單身女性實施人工生殖那我就不一一講哪些國家但是我們現在我們的人工生殖法真的應該要進一步的去思考要怎麼讓可以想生的人能夠生而不是僅限於在異性戀價值的夫妻裡面也可能不只是限於在醫學上的不孕症部長你同意嗎?"},{"start":8080.032,"end":8090.686,"text":"我跟委員報告這一個部分的方向上面的話是比較沒有太多社會的爭議不是完全沒有是他的這一個爭議是比較小的"},{"start":8091.243,"end":8119.838,"text":"那他的問題會是出現在這個整個的管制的措施方面。比方說剛剛委員提到的這一些不想結婚但是有固定伴侶的。對。當他如果要做人工生殖的時候,他不會是匿名捐精。是。因為他有固定伴侶,他一定是要那一個人的這個捐精。照理來說是。對。照理來說是應該是這個樣子的。所以"},{"start":8120.498,"end":8145.746,"text":"跟這一個像是最左邊這個所謂的未婚就他從來沒有婚姻也不想進入婚姻這個時候他如果想要懷孕他可能需要的是匿名的捐贈部長我其實在幾次跟你的討論裡面我都有感覺到其實你對這方面你的認識是很深的你的討論我覺得也進入到很深的層次但我覺得現在比較可惜的一直是"},{"start":8146.846,"end":8148.908,"text":"提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":8174.748,"end":8191.158,"text":"我覺得我們在討論上都會出現很大的困難。我在我自己的提案裡面我們確實沒有提到代理孕母的制度。當然這部分的原因是因為我們看到還有部分的民間團尤其婦女團體在這邊還有疑慮。但我自己也同意"},{"start":8192.319,"end":8216.456,"text":"到底在保障女性權益跟代孕者健康跟自主權的前提之下我覺得這個部分也還是可以開放討論但如果開放的話重點是放在要有哪些管理的原則跟具體的做法那可以來減少大家對倫理上面的疑慮但我也可以想像其實如果要開放代孕母的配號的細緻的做法如果要討論這方面"},{"start":8217.276,"end":8244.865,"text":"我自己覺得可能我覺得可能沒有辦法短時間就能夠有共識了所以現在我必須說現在包括代孕單身女性女同事配偶這幾個不同的生育不平等的議題裡面我覺得真的剛才說很難一時半刻在沒有衛福部的版本下面討論這是我們看到現在在修法會討論上面一個很大的困境這是為什麼一直要跟衛福部表達需要有布板"},{"start":8245.165,"end":8246.126,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":8261.923,"end":8277.331,"text":"我個人比較自己先從有共識的議題先處理如果我們只是一直把議題一直放在過去爭議比較大的那幾個問題的話我認為可能會拖累所有的內容剛才講的這幾個議題都無法前進或都難以前進那這是大家不樂見看到的狀況"},{"start":8278.591,"end":8278.971,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":8309.272,"end":8337.267,"text":"其實很多女性其實想生的女性其實她們都來表達她們自己覺得時間上的壓力很大這是來自於生理上面的限制所以她們當看到衛福部的版本一直沒有很明確的前進或者有點停滯不全的時候那種心理的壓力感是很大的我自己很希望不管是部長或者署長在這邊吳署長在這邊我覺得應該要把大家的這個時間上面的壓力感真的應該要納入"},{"start":8337.887,"end":8344.272,"text":"三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":8367.689,"end":8395.142,"text":"要比過去更積極,沒有問題吧?這也是我們要努力的方向。那這一個部分的話,我們會來讓院板先趕快能夠出來。但是我還是要聲明,衛福部如果提出這個院板,並不表示說裡面所有的內容都是我們的主張。而是把這一個會牽涉到的問題通通是把它拿出來。"},{"start":8396.222,"end":8420.076,"text":"至於說價值判斷的部分我覺得是需要有社會共識的也許在立法院這邊是可以來形成部長你最後這一段話我可以說我是同意的而且我也支持我自己也很希望到時候討論的時候不要又有那種民粹的無限上綱好像哪一個局部的做法就要怎麼樣發揮貼上一個很可怕的扭曲的標籤這會讓事情沒辦法討論"},{"start":8420.876,"end":8439.223,"text":"我覺得這件事情確實也會考驗立法院裡面討論這件事情的品質跟素養。我同意你講這件事情。但是確實沒有一個具體的版本。我覺得這件事情的討論就常常還是會留在原地。這就會是大家覺得比較可惜的地方。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝洪文。有請王宇,王委員。"},{"start":8451.293,"end":8453.369,"text":"有請衛福部學部長有請部長"},{"start":8458.942,"end":8488.204,"text":"委員好部長其實剛剛關於這個人工生殖法相關的不同的面向和不同的議題剛剛前面洪委員其實分析的蠻多的部分了那的確我也認為說我們的確不應該因為一次希望能夠全部都涵蓋進去反而停滯不前我們是不是能夠來思考一些從比較有共識的沒有爭議的部分優先來做處理和討論其中我認為說我們看到衛福部當時為了要因應少子女化的趨勢從2021年就開始了擴大捕孕症試管嬰兒的補助方案"},{"start":8488.604,"end":8510.914,"text":"希望能夠透過補助來鼓勵以及幫助不孕症的夫妻可以生育到孩子。實際上的數據我們也看到這是2022年到6月的情況。那申請的人數相當多也成功地產下了2000多位孩子。如果以台灣一年只有13萬6000多的孩子來說的話,多能夠多出生2000個孩子其實就高達了大概1.5%左右的比例了。"},{"start":8511.274,"end":8512.335,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":8541.098,"end":8561.736,"text":"第二個部分就是女同志的配偶而我們也看到在2018年的2月公共政策的參與平台就有超過5000人聯署希望能夠開放單身女性可以合法使用人工受孕及事管嬰兒議案訴求很清楚的提到希望能夠建議放寬人工生殖法的適用對象與單身女性以及同性伴侶的建議"},{"start":8562.957,"end":8587.157,"text":"當時衛福部有召開會議,然後仍然認為應該要以兒童的最佳利益為評估的原則來研議,但是後續我們就沒有看到具體的推進和作為了。但我首先想要再次的澄清和再次的跟部長報告就是,兒童權利公約裡面有提到說每一個孩子不論父母不論孩子的身份地位不同都享有不受歧視的權利,同時兒童的事務也應該以兒童的最佳利益為優先考量。"},{"start":8587.637,"end":8612.937,"text":"所以衛福部那時候的確有提到說應該要以兒童的最佳利益來做評估但是我們認為這樣子的兒童最佳利益的評估不應該預先適用家長的婚姻狀態而排除了這些孩子獲得幸福的可能又或者現在的人工生殖法因為有這樣子的對象適用的限縮所以讓這些同志配偶們他們即便已經通過同婚多年了但是卻沒有辦法能夠合法地擁有一個孩子"},{"start":8613.297,"end":8626.7,"text":"所以想請教第一個部分是在各公共參與的平台之下聯署之後當時說要來評估現在有沒有一個具體的作為又或者是從當時到現在我們總共進行了哪些面向的評估來重新思考兒童的最佳利益涵蓋的範圍"},{"start":8627.659,"end":8648.753,"text":"有,那跟委員報告,其實這國建署這邊一直都是召集各方面的代表跟專家齁,在討論這個法案的內容。我們能不能具體跟大家說明一下,召開了幾次說明,幾次會議又或者是每次會議大概有什麼樣的方向和結論。請那個署長來說。好,謝謝。那我們這三年多來我們總共"},{"start":8650.539,"end":8679.164,"text":"總共召開了13次的會議那也朝你的相關的這樣的一個法條那我們後續還會持續在召開這樣的一個會議那也會配合如果說未來召開公聽會也收集更多的意見來凝聚更大的所以現在目前開過13次會議之後認為這個單身女性又或者是女同志配偶有沒有影響到兒童的最佳利益要用一些法條或者是規範來保障這些兒童的潛力的問題"},{"start":8680.354,"end":8695.16,"text":"對,所以我覺得那應該是配套的部分嘛,不應該是用婚姻的狀態來評估兒童的最佳例。所以這部分我們還是很希望說能夠來評估相對比較沒有爭議的範圍,我們是不是應該來優先處理並且達到社會共識。這是我們在人工生殖法裡面希望能夠具體往前推進的部分。"},{"start":8696.345,"end":8711.39,"text":"這部分的話其實還是需要立法院的一個大家的共識啦。當然當然。就是說這個法是不是可以把它切成兩個階段。那這個需要我想委員們的一個共識才能夠做得到。那衛福部這邊"},{"start":8713.237,"end":8729.666,"text":"第一、現階段我們如果擬出來的法案我們是不會切兩個階段因為我們怕說外界誤以為說我們對於第二階段的代理運母我們是有什麼樣特定的立場的所以我們在設計這個法案的時候會把它通通包進來"},{"start":8730.686,"end":8745.523,"text":"那至於說立法院這邊決定是要分兩階段這個說是沒有比較沒有爭議的單身女性女同志配偶的這個部分的話衛福部也尊重這樣的方向要先上路我們就尊重了解好那接下來"},{"start":8745.723,"end":8746.504,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":8764.554,"end":8786.787,"text":"我認為作為主管機關應該要面對他們所提出來的人力不足、地心的結構、病戶比還有總量管制等等的問題一起來具體的來思考和回應。其中一個我們也看到的是民間團體多次的來針對醫院裡面普遍存在的跨科資源的狀況,也提出了許多的改善建議。所以今天首先想要請教一下這個跨科資源的部分有沒有一個比較具體推動的方向或是改善的方向?"},{"start":8788.189,"end":8811.105,"text":"這個部分的話我們會開始來朝你一個所謂的跨科資源的這個指引讓醫院能夠去遵守這預計呈現的時間或是說什麼時候會有這樣的指引嗎?我先跟部長這邊報告一下就是說依照我們現在看到的這些民團的問卷調查裡面顯示跨科資源可以理解有時候人類有需求必須要跨科資源大家也可以願意一起來共體實踐但是呢"},{"start":8811.465,"end":8834.658,"text":"但這些醫事人員被調離他自己原本的科別或單位到其他單位來做替補人力的情況之下就會擔心的是並沒有之前的教育信念又或者是並沒有辦法讓他們能夠充足的認知到不同科別所需要的協助是什麼所以並不是說他們反對跨科資源而是認為說跨科資源應該要給他們充足的教育信念而實際上以民團的調查結果也看到有九成以上的受訪人員認為"},{"start":8835.678,"end":8864.653,"text":"必須要有教育訓練但是有超過五成的人員表示實際上沒有教育訓練那同時也有八成的田打者認為他們去其他單位支援的時候會呈現出來因為包括環境的不熟悉因為科別的不熟悉而呈現出來可能表現比較不好又或者是工作意願而工作壓力比較大甚至是可能會增加了離職的意願所以我們希望剛剛指引有方向我覺得很好但是我們也很希望能夠具體的告訴他們指引的內容可能包含哪幾個面向以及指引什麼時候能夠出現"},{"start":8865.433,"end":8884.069,"text":"好,那我們在28號會召開這一個跟一些工會的聯合會啦那護理師的全聯會啦等等這些一起來做討論,28號。第一次會議?對,那還有當然包括醫院協會跟勞動部都會一起來。"},{"start":8885.39,"end":8911.456,"text":"那這一個方向上面其實它的需求是這樣子的有兩類的狀況第一個比方說那個兒科的照顧那從新生兒到兒童家務病房到兒科的病房這些因為第一大部分的醫院它的個案數不會多而且是那個床數也不多這時候你沒有齁把它做跨科的訓練其實它也不算跨科就是說"},{"start":8912.616,"end":8936.677,"text":"總和的一個訓練的話,到時候要調度就會非常困難。這是一個。第二個是經常會看到的是過年。過年因為有些病房會關掉,讓護理人員可以來休假。但是急診就會,那個病人就會很多。這個時候關掉病房的可能有一些就休假了,有一些可能變成要去支援急診。這個是比較常見的。"},{"start":8937.398,"end":8954.499,"text":"但我想其實史詩潔說並不是是這樣而已因為報告去年我們的台灣醫療工會聯合會就提出來這些病房的護理師有高達九成都有被要求跨課資源所以可能並不是集中在兒科或者是這些醫科如果太腐爛的話那的確會造成那個人員適應的不良"},{"start":8955.72,"end":8982.674,"text":"沒錯 所以這部分就是希望能夠具體了解問題和現狀之後能夠朝這個方式來做努力因為我們看到是如果當我們看到這樣子常態性的人力不足包括我們2022年的數據也呈現出來護理人員的總離職率是攀升到11.73而總空缺率是6.53這是創下了5年的新高所以大家很希望能夠盡快有這樣的規範因為如果是常態性的人力不足導致有一些低薪又或者是不合理的輪班以及跨科資源"},{"start":8983.214,"end":8983.895,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":9007.512,"end":9029.717,"text":"第二個部分是針對做方式的跨科資源能夠清楚的告訴他們資源的時間的上限因為我覺得跨科對他們來說可能還有一個認同感以及專業能力能不能累積的問題所以他們很希望能夠有這兩個明確的指引放在我們的規範裡面是不是能夠朝這幾個方向來做努力對這就是我們要跟大家談的那這一個主要的方向就是這個"},{"start":9030.317,"end":9043.747,"text":"所以剛才提到12月底會有第4的會議那有沒有預計可能在明年的上半年就有機會能夠出現因為我想我們大家最擔心的就是研議研議再研議然後可能研議就好幾年明年上半年應該是可以的好 了解 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝下一位請張玉美張委員謝謝主席請衛福部部長有請薛部長"},{"start":9064.912,"end":9083.099,"text":"委員好部長好部長這幾天在檢驗人工生殖法相關的資料的時候我看到媒體報導的一段描述指出人工生殖法涉及的生物科技、女性主義、生命倫理的交纏"},{"start":9084.64,"end":9101.471,"text":"或許遠比DNA的雙股螺旋複雜得多了相當深刻地描述人工生殖法討論過程所面臨的困難但回首過去衛福部就在93年到現在分別在93年"},{"start":9103.012,"end":9104.253,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":9130.69,"end":9146.284,"text":"則疑是否選舉前有倉促的決定。所以要請問國建署第一部是否有踏出把人工生殖法草案送到衛福部。請問。"},{"start":9149.771,"end":9161.201,"text":"我們這三年多就一直在討論那我們總共開了13次的專家相關的會議那你定了相關的草案那目前這個法案還在國建署"},{"start":9162.12,"end":9184.477,"text":"會不會還是說說而已選前又拿出來所以會不會說說又再沒有進行所以第一步對啊跟選舉沒有關係我們就一直在進行當中我說過開了13次了3年半開了13次對剛剛王婉玉委員就說不要一直開會而已啊沒有結果啊對不對這個內容恐怕不是那麼容易就能夠確認"},{"start":9186.46,"end":9202.231,"text":"所以有第一步齁?我強調的是第一步嘛?就是生殖法...因為現在那個...其實是國建署的版本還缺一塊就是那個未婚或單身女性的這一塊啦你說什麼單身..."},{"start":9204.592,"end":9233.675,"text":"單身或者是未婚女性的這一個部分的話因為我們有委託研究案在這個委託出去那這個報告還沒有回來了所以在這一個部分的話是會比較delay一點但是我們的草案其實可以一邊就來進行剛剛部長講到單身女性嘛那有沒有規劃如何保障避免女性身體成為工具而遭受到商業的剝削呢"},{"start":9235.11,"end":9255.15,"text":"這個大部分在提到這一個都是指的是代理運母,那這個的話如果要讓代理運母變成是一個選項的話那就必須要對剛剛委員提到這些要有很好的配套措施所以這一個部分的話當然規劃會更為複雜"},{"start":9257.746,"end":9278.914,"text":"對,所以部長你知道美國嘛美國加州這個人工生殖規範是很寬鬆的帶動了當地這個人工生殖產業的發展而且強進了卵子市場的需求那就有人力仲介會在台灣招募女性遠赴美國捐卵"},{"start":9279.614,"end":9306.048,"text":"但這樣做法不僅涉及違反美國入境法規美國他可能是觀光簽證違反法規簽證是不能去捐卵的那也違反了我國人工生殖法禁止居間仲介的規定事後這還可能遭遇健康風險所謂健康風險我們一直要去打排卵針可能負壓會增加"},{"start":9307.849,"end":9323.237,"text":"還有甚至可能遭受不屑商人的剝削報酬。這些赴美捐卵的這些案例都明目張膽的出現在社群網路中。請問國建署一事司分別有什麼查處的作為啊?"},{"start":9324.537,"end":9325.858,"text":"五、委員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案 案。׳"},{"start":9344.252,"end":9366.282,"text":"好,接著我剛剛提到代孕者權益的保護之外,接著部長討論目前面臨少子化的問題。目前衛福部提供一般不孕症的夫妻首先申請不孕症治療,就是私管嬰兒,最高補助10萬,再次申請最高補助是6萬。"},{"start":9367.703,"end":9387.804,"text":"不過對於已達適婚年齡但尚未準備懷孕﹑也就是未婚﹑或者是不準備懷孕的這些而先採取肚腩的女性﹑就缺乏了這個政策的協助。每年6000元到1萬元不等的冷凍保存費。"},{"start":9390.119,"end":9406.691,"text":"據我所知我住在桃園市桃園市已經實施然後新竹已經分別提供每人總計最高2.2萬桃園2.2萬為什麼呢是桃園第一年冷凍費用1萬第二年6000第三年6000那就2.2萬那新竹3.1萬凍卵補助台北呢就規劃"},{"start":9412.688,"end":9435.256,"text":"﹑立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文�"},{"start":9439.598,"end":9464.254,"text":"對,需要先凍卵對,去卵對,卵細胞會有影響但是其他的部分你看看像桃園新竹他補助的就三年的凍卵三年以後就沒有了一般第五年會自己去就自己去如果說以現在的規定的話自己去懷孕就好了"},{"start":9464.494,"end":9476.981,"text":"自己去取回來就8%啊,到第5年一般就動亂就...對,所以事實上他的利用率是非常低的。到第3年,他給他第3年就好。你補助這3年,讓他3年可以動亂,3年之後呢?"},{"start":9477.945,"end":9478.666,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":9496.448,"end":9508.259,"text":"二、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．委員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":9509.903,"end":9536.979,"text":"最後呢我要請問的就是我們兒科的醫師招募這四年間從98%降低到七成所以呢很擔心將來重症兒童無一可醫啦那我要剛提醒國民黨在106年是曾將少子化這個對策納入前瞻基礎建設所以呢這個少子化不是一夕之間嘛但是一陣子嘛所以我請問你"},{"start":9538.199,"end":9562.581,"text":"過去6年之間呢,少子化的政策我們衛福部有成效嗎?少子化的政策主要在過去的話都一直是在處理的那對於托育托嬰的這個需求那我們讓他有一個高額的補助然後讓他這些年輕的大媽們無後顧之憂大概是這樣子"},{"start":9563.442,"end":9587.019,"text":"那至於說對於小兒科醫師的缺對這個是在最近的我們推出的一個優化兒童醫療照護計畫才去做這一方面的一些鼓勵那也我們的詳細的情形我們也會這個對外逐步的去去做說明那比方說我們分為核心醫院重點醫院核心醫院的話負責這個訓練新的兒"},{"start":9589.321,"end":9601.387,"text":"而科醫師他會有一方面對於這一個所謂的年輕醫師進入這一個研究醫師的部分會有一些補助另外的話也會補助他到國外去受訓"},{"start":9602.646,"end":9625.796,"text":"我覺得我建議政府呢面臨人力我們這個醫師人力問題有一個解決辦法啦那請問可不可以改變思維來重視服務的品質跟價值而不是讓醫師小兒科醫師迷失只有在服務量這樣就可以選擇我會更多的醫師來選擇小兒科不要用健保就是量嘛他沒有強調這個品質與價值我們小孩子這麼寶貝"},{"start":9628.917,"end":9646.989,"text":"是不是剛剛你11月1號成立了那個幾個啦然後幼兒專職醫師制度提升醫院兒童肌重診照護量能對不對這些都有那我強調的是是不是我們在這個小額科醫師重視品質來重視量比重視量更重要你覺得呢"},{"start":9648.082,"end":9664.73,"text":"對,這當然也是一個方向,就不是只有去重視量,而且兒科他為什麼會比較凋零下來那個諸因是減少,其實一個原因就是在健保論量計酬的這個制度之下的話,他的收入一定是不好。"},{"start":9665.47,"end":9681.155,"text":"議員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第"},{"start":9681.795,"end":9706.771,"text":"就說造成少子化的原因很多啦不是只有衛福部而已衛福部在生育呢照顧政治上的努力之外呢其實職場環境這跟勞動部有關啊然後職場環境有沒有非常友善啊社會條件住房政策啊有沒有買不起房子啊等等這些都需要更多跨部會的努力不是只有衛福部所以我覺得還是跨部會的合作對嗎是這樣子解決少子化問題是好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":9720.562,"end":9748.495,"text":"下一位吳新英委員謝謝有請謝部長嗨部長好本席從就任以來就對台灣的有永續的核心議題感為關心那想說其實這個部分是國人健康以及醫療體系的永續那近年來台灣的健康醫療上面的"},{"start":9748.955,"end":9750.876,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":9771.303,"end":9799.615,"text":"對於補充保險性的可能性評估在長照的津貼,衛福部也在本席的要求下作為委員外的各國實施狀況報告。至於少子化的問題,衛福部也提前認同本席主張的要積極擴張公托以及給予解決區域性不均的問題。綜合來看的話,其實本席是對數位醫療跟人中生殖的"},{"start":9801.015,"end":9826.523,"text":"兩項呢也是因為今天為什麼我排這個人工生殖法的審查那不過在這個討論人工生殖法之前我想請問一下部長說本席想確認一下這個通訊診療辦法的進度因為在四個星期之前部長有直接說下週會公報可是這個大概是一個月的時間了那想請問一下就是這個部分"},{"start":9827.363,"end":9829.084,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":9848.291,"end":9877.396,"text":"這個我倒不敢講多久不過大概在頂多是三個月內我們就可以處理啦三個月內因為我們可能還要再跟他們開協調會大概一兩次啦好我想跟部長強調就是說這次的修法有許多的慢性病跟行動不電的民眾尤其是長者都非常期待那台灣其實有700萬人喔都是固定是要有慢性病這個需求的那同時上次我在質詢的時候是說"},{"start":9877.996,"end":9879.036,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":9905.182,"end":9906.163,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":9934.205,"end":9935.486,"text":"提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":9950.361,"end":9976.442,"text":"這會,其實這四個部分我們大概都會做某種程度的一個設計第一個就是單身女性其實他應該講是說沒有沒有這一個婚姻關係的配偶的女性第二個就是女性的同志第三個是男性同志第四個就是"},{"start":9978.163,"end":9983.993,"text":"有婚姻關係但是他沒有能夠懷孕有"},{"start":9985.185,"end":9986.145,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10010.77,"end":10026.777,"text":"都贊成、都同意。威福部在這方面的話並沒有既定的立場。應該是說您剛剛也有提到就是說在別的委員的時候是意思是說各種面向你都會提出來然後要在凝聚社會的這個在每一個項目的這個"},{"start":10028.137,"end":10029.978,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10055.743,"end":10056.663,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10082.99,"end":10084.871,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10108.965,"end":10135.317,"text":"這個部分委員提到的是有關於這個代理孕母的制度並不是講的是其他的部分那代孕的部分的話子女最佳利益的評估跟審查這個是需要的第二個專業諮詢制度是需要的但是比較問題的是代孕者也就是那個孕母他的利益是要怎麼樣去保障那在委員這邊提到的是用契約"},{"start":10136.757,"end":10165.174,"text":"公證具要來保障這一個那法院的裁定程序去做補充那剛剛司法院也提到過其實要法院的裁定去做補充的話這個程序就會非常的麻煩但是最大的問題是在這個代孕契約的本身代孕契約雖然你經過公證但是他的問題點並不是說這個契約有效無效的問題而是他能不能強制執行的問題"},{"start":10166.615,"end":10185.643,"text":"這個才是最大的問題。好,謝謝部長。那接著就是說我想幫同志朋友來發聲,我很高興以本黨提出的這個放寬同性收養的限制修法,那今年5月順利通過了三讀,而且今年我也參加了這個多元同行的這個"},{"start":10187.163,"end":10188.245,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10203.004,"end":10203.664,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10229.348,"end":10245.483,"text":"在這部分我是不是請那個署長來回答一下?就很快速的回答一下好嗎?因為這個待運我剛提到了我們目前在草擬這段時間對象都還在裡面,包含藍藍都在裡面,但是還是要尋求到社會最大的共識。OK謝謝,然後其實這個因為國內沒有開放"},{"start":10249.942,"end":10253.283,"text":"議員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．"},{"start":10274.748,"end":10275.788,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10295.31,"end":10296.45,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10327.497,"end":10334.401,"text":"期待衛福部能讓社會大眾有滿意的修法草案。感謝部長這邊。謝謝。謝謝委員。謝謝。謝謝吳委員、部長。下一位黃秀芳委員。謝謝主席。我們請部長。"},{"start":10357.478,"end":10370.144,"text":"委員老部長好。部長,今天這個議題,其實我覺得目前是沒有願版。對,沒有願版。我想請教,就是說願版是什麼時候會出來?"},{"start":10372.224,"end":10394.956,"text":"這目前的話在國建署這邊的在研擬的版本除了中間除了那個單身女性的這一塊因為本來是要委託給外面做研究那現在研究案還在進行所以那一個部分的話條文還沒出來其他的部分大概條文都已經初步的條文都已經用連代理孕母也都出來了"},{"start":10396.417,"end":10412.772,"text":"所以我想請教就是說部長針對這種人工生殖法就是說我們修法的方向那比較沒有比較爭議比較小可能就是那個女性配偶跟那個單身女性的這個部分應該是比較沒有爭議"},{"start":10414.173,"end":10415.234,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10434.855,"end":10436.336,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10452.985,"end":10453.626,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10480.629,"end":10489.925,"text":"沒有錯,尤其是整個人工生殖法,我們現在如果說打算要再進一步開放的這個方向的話,"},{"start":10490.851,"end":10517.164,"text":"那代理孕母是一個比較不好處理的因為他涉及到倫理涉及到法律涉及到兒童的權益那他的兒童的這個法律上的地位兒童的照顧等等這些問題都有那其實也不是很好處理這中間配套的相關配套的設計不是那麼容易啦所以"},{"start":10518.385,"end":10521.848,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10543.609,"end":10544.61,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974"},{"start":10567.381,"end":10590.431,"text":"我舉個例子比如說我們現在對於這幾個面向的話要去處理的話比如說單身女性可能就需要開至少一次的公認會因為這裡面涉及到什麼樣叫做單身女性她可以來接受這個人工生殖第一個就是這個第二個就是說那這些所謂的單身女性她"},{"start":10591.567,"end":10592.227,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10620.418,"end":10621.158,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10637.005,"end":10637.385,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10653.094,"end":10654.095,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10682.69,"end":10703.378,"text":"對,好,那這個是我們希望這個未來要大家好好的去討論,短時間內,因為我想說到12月中可能就是要修會了,那在短時間內可能就是有它的困難,那我們希望說未來我們的這個這個院版出來之後我們可以在立法院在這邊可以再充分的去討論,好不好?"},{"start":10705.199,"end":10724.711,"text":"要開公聽會來擬具共識的話,跟院板出來,兩者不一定要有一定的先後關係。如果先開公聽會,給院板在修正的時候做一個參考也可以。或者要等院板出來,再召集公聽會也可以。"},{"start":10725.652,"end":10740.298,"text":"好,那接下來我想請教那個部長就是有關這個加熱菸從今年3月22號就是我們那個新制的菸害防治法通過那有明定就是禁止電子菸納管加熱菸"},{"start":10740.998,"end":10741.679,"text":"我請那署長回答"},{"start":10762.611,"end":10789.646,"text":"大概我們目前大概分了兩個部分總共有15位委員那分了四組小組那小組個別召開相關的審查因為四個重點那每個月大概都會開一次大會啦就是針對小組審查以後的能不能在大會取得共識按照這樣的一個方式在對阿我是想說齁其實現在市面上或者是有店面喔它又有實體店面喔就是它都已經在賣了我們會加強取締"},{"start":10793.217,"end":10810.758,"text":"我覺得你應該是要把這個健康風險評估審查應該趕快通過吧我想程序要完備啦那安全無疑我們當然就開放當然啦目前現在實體店面我現在要講的實體店面都有都已經在賣所以我覺得說"},{"start":10811.499,"end":10816.022,"text":"三、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10837.538,"end":10856.394,"text":"就通過了然後另外一個你就覺得說這個是不能賣不能賣實際上他就是已經在賣了我想還是要做對國人健康為把關還是要比較謹慎的來審查是啊是啊我也同意這樣子啊對啊所以我覺得說目前這個問題就是存在那裡嘛"},{"start":10858.339,"end":10885.18,"text":"對阿好不好那另外就是說這個加熱菸他有那個載具就是那個APP會有這個資安的問題就是前陣子那個家庭醫學會他們就有特別提到新興菸品就是這個加熱菸的資安的疑慮那我看到就是說這個速發部他們有提出16項需求的資安檢驗的IoT項目並沒有包括這個新興菸品的載具那相對的就是說我"},{"start":10886.081,"end":10894.312,"text":"我不知道說我們衛福部跟這個抒發部既然有家庭醫學會都已經提出這樣的一個疑慮那你們是不是也要把這個訊息轉資給這個抒發部"},{"start":10898.922,"end":10913.209,"text":"我們是這樣子,我們現在是載具要送,連同那個天空檢測要送審。目前送審的載具裡面是沒有看到這個功能。如果有我們會跟蘇阿部跟經濟部來討論這個相關事宜。好,好,謝謝,謝謝。謝謝黃委員,下一位陳嘉華前委員。"},{"start":10927.855,"end":10930.177,"text":"謝謝主席,請部長,有請部長,有請薛部長。委員好。部長好。部長我要請教醫療事故預防及爭議處理法,我們執法跟相關的調解機制我們已經確定了嗎?是。確定了,那可不可以說明一下現在的,因為在"},{"start":10952.251,"end":10979.141,"text":"十一月吧十月初跟部長質詢確定之後要給本席辦公室但是一直都沒有得到這個部分因為一月一號就要開始實施啦那我們的執法規大概都已經那部長答應要給本席就是你們通過就要給本席好像到現在都沒拿到我回去就提供給那個委員那可以說明一下我們現在有平息嗎"},{"start":10980.583,"end":11008.508,"text":"有相關的那個就是在醫癒法施行之後我們針對後續的預防及爭議處理的調解制度我們現在是修訂的是怎麼樣的一個情況可不可以說明一下這在調解過程當中如果這一個有關於這個醫療的專業的部分的話是有平息的制度的"},{"start":11009.845,"end":11035.352,"text":"對 那有訂訂就是讓就是可依循的操作手冊或者是指引嗎 有沒有 有 有訂了 那可以給本席嘛今天就可以給嘛 好 謝謝 那另外針對今天的人工生殖法的修訂 那請問部長我們最困難的是什麼 為什麼我們院版演繹這麼久"},{"start":11036.916,"end":11056.105,"text":"到現在都沒有辦法去確定一個方向,也不該公平會。這個部分我跟委員報告,其實這裡面牽涉到的法律、倫理、各方的權益的保障等等,其實是蠻複雜的。"},{"start":11058.286,"end":11083.066,"text":"那而且時間過程上一次在比較正式的公聽會是在差不多十幾年前的時候有這樣所以這十幾年以來都沒有再開過公聽會嗎?沒有就主要是在部裡面的針對於這個法案的內容那去做這個部裡面的討論而已專家會議開過幾次會啊?十三次"},{"start":11086.168,"end":11115.368,"text":"十三次會議,所以還在研議嗎?所以爭議現在有化解多少了?大概現在比較大的爭議點還是在代理運母的這部分。但是我們現在的修法的方向是這樣,我們仍然會把代理運母相關的配套把它提出來,在我們的草案裡面會提出來。"},{"start":11115.788,"end":11144.726,"text":"所以已經有一個草案了嗎?我們已經有一個復案了嗎?帶領育母這邊?那個部分是有,有一個復案在那邊但是這整體的整體的這個法案的話還沒有完全因為像說那個女性單身的這一個部分要去接受人工生殖的這個部分的話那我們是委託一個研究計畫出去目前的他的成果還沒報告過來所以我們也在等"},{"start":11147.769,"end":11159.751,"text":"請問這幾年這兩年內開了幾次會?如果說十幾年來開了十幾次會平均一年開一次會那這兩年來開了三年內開了十三次會那這一年來開了幾次會?今年開了兩次"},{"start":11171.607,"end":11191.18,"text":"所以這樣算認真嗎?重視這個議題嗎?這個不是認不認真的問題,是不好處理的問題。那請問,就是世界上現在有幾個國家是有這樣的一個法律?要看在開放的哪一個部分,每一個部分都不太一樣。"},{"start":11193.229,"end":11194.149,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11208.022,"end":11209.763,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11229.778,"end":11257.654,"text":"如果這樣子我們努力下去預估衛福部多久可以把草案提出來?我們是希望在明年裡面就能夠把草案提出來不過我必須還是再度聲明我們把草案提出來並不表示說我們對每一個部分的話都是持著這個贊同的方向我們只是把這裡面相關的配套如果你要通過這一個那會有這些配套必須要處理然後由貴院來做"},{"start":11258.575,"end":11259.716,"text":"謝謝主席。我想要請我們薛部長。有請薛部長。"},{"start":11283.68,"end":11299.809,"text":"委員好。學部長好。今天不是要來緩解,要來處理這些事情。因為困難的事情,衛福部每一項事情都很困難。所以我們即便是困難的事情也要想辦法,然後也要找出途徑來解決。"},{"start":11302.25,"end":11312.896,"text":"已經討論了就是開了十三次會如果就是說其實重點有疑義的問題就是就只有幾項那要共同討論那其實其他不只幾項"},{"start":11314.761,"end":11336.079,"text":"我知道啦,就是很難出力的嘛可是你看到其實其他國家也是有明定法律的那甚至是就是像美國、英國有一些部分他們也是都是同意的嘛那那這個部分我們是不是應該要盡快的尋求共識喔畢竟就是不運這個部分已經成為就是現在就是"},{"start":11336.979,"end":11337.7,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11356.557,"end":11363.679,"text":"現在可以出來讓我們看看嗎?現在是初步啦,初步有一些專家給我們的意見,大概就有一些解決的方案是沒有啦,是對的啦。"},{"start":11379.544,"end":11403.765,"text":"但是這個如果依照立法的程序,我們還是需要經過我們的法規委員會再檢查一下這個文字。所以今天也沒辦法討論?今天沒辦法啦。沒結果?因為你行政都外企版本材?那就沒有了,比較倉促的時候我是覺得不宜啦,不宜所以今天就去處理啦。一定要當選舉了喔?"},{"start":11405.94,"end":11413.045,"text":"三、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件不完結（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11435.88,"end":11436.601,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11455.773,"end":11470.946,"text":"你有提到就是說明年要確定編46.59億來提升我們的照護量能啦護理的照護量能那我在想說這46.59億是不是要跟著健保的點值來浮動還是專款專用"},{"start":11473.503,"end":11491.412,"text":"這個部分的話其實是一個專款因為他就是編在所謂的其他部門裡面那我們並不會隨著不是在一般總和裡面所以他不會隨著點子去去推動可是因為就是說目前你提高就是護理的量能可是你你是不是只給夜班啊"},{"start":11491.952,"end":11507.845,"text":"還是三班都有?跟委員報告齁大概是這個樣子第一個的話是一班急性病床的護理人員他的月班費大概佔26億但是因為護理人員或有"},{"start":11508.726,"end":11525.823,"text":"其他的病床、病房的部門還是有。他們也有在職業班的。所以我們會針對每家醫院來申請這一班急性病房的這一個部分我們多給50%,50%讓他去處理那一些其他的部門。"},{"start":11526.744,"end":11538.322,"text":"另外有一個基層的。基層如果他有這個調整護理人員的薪資,我們從他的健保加保的金額就可以看得出來。那這個部分的話會有6.59億。"},{"start":11540.76,"end":11566.191,"text":"對可是其實那個護理協會他們也有一直在提出你只提高夜間的那也會讓就是說其他的兩班因為夜間只有一班嘛其他兩班對不對然後其他的對就是說就是其他兩班會不會覺得說就是有就是差別待遇然後我們就說這也是一個複雜的問題啦因為這牽涉到就是會牽涉到排版的問題報告委員這個比較簡單"},{"start":11569.152,"end":11598.144,"text":"這也是會牽涉到排班的問題啊。因為第一次我們處理的這個夜班會是包括小夜跟大夜。那小夜跟大夜我們調查過,他的這一屆整個護理站的全部的護理人員的人力裡面會去包大夜或包小夜的,大概就各站82%。可是其實好像大家最想要解決的是護病比啊,是不是?護病比是另外一個issue,那我們現在也正在處理當中。"},{"start":11598.524,"end":11599.225,"text":"對我們正在努力當中。"},{"start":11616.285,"end":11640.646,"text":"我還有一個意見就是因為我們在彰化的偏鄉那其實我們都有發現就是偏鄉的男性比較好發的就是頭頸癌的病人那其實我們知道頭頸癌的病人他的自殺率是超過一般人的五倍那尤其他們都是在中低的收入的族群裡面那他們也是家中經濟"},{"start":11641.687,"end":11642.267,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11662.035,"end":11663.456,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11691.528,"end":11692.349,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11718.246,"end":11719.607,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11742.919,"end":11757.943,"text":"三、委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「人工生"},{"start":11767.496,"end":11789.435,"text":"跟委員報告,在委員提到的就是頭頸癌病人他的治療還有他的重建還有後面的復健。這些是一系列必須要去做的。大部分這些在做的話大概都限於一些醫學中心或者是有這類專科的醫院才有在做。"},{"start":11789.915,"end":11812.231,"text":"所以這個部分的話,我想在健保的支付的這個部分的話,我們會來請健保署這邊再來做一個重新的一個盤點。看看這個支付標準是不是需要再做。應該是不是支付的點數應該要除以它的公式,因為有些手術的確涉及比較多部分,尤其是在頭部的話。"},{"start":11812.551,"end":11813.912,"text":"三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":11825.185,"end":11825.865,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11857.064,"end":11859.946,"text":"謝謝下一位請范芸范委員謝謝主席有請部長有請學部長"},{"start":11874.212,"end":11890.006,"text":"委員好部長好我想也是要先針對人工生殖法的部分先請教部長因為我想今天剛剛很多委員都有提到無法生育的家庭他的求子心切的願望"},{"start":11890.566,"end":11892.087,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11916.887,"end":11938.044,"text":"第三種聲音是反對倉促立法但是支持與單身女性女同志配偶脫鉤處理那因為剛剛部長都有提到說未來一年會提出你們自己的版本讓立法院來討論那取得共識我想問部長你們提案的時候能不能把"},{"start":11938.524,"end":11939.484,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11955.029,"end":11980.1,"text":"不涉及其他女性身體的單身女性跟女同志配偶的人工生殖其實遇到的議題是不大一樣的那如果能夠法案上分開處理的話那也許有機會讓爭議比較少在立法院達成共識的人工生殖的法案先行上路逐步開始那不知道部長就是覺得有沒有這個可能性"},{"start":11981.682,"end":11997.708,"text":"這個可能性不是掌握在衛福部是掌握在大院所以如果說委員各黨團有這樣的公式要透過處理的話我們都可以來做配合了解就是你們尊重我們立法院的處理方式"},{"start":11998.208,"end":11998.909,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974"},{"start":12020.808,"end":12035.841,"text":"那依照現在的人工生殖法女性要使用自己的冷凍軟體的時候必須要兩個前提一個必須結婚成為異性戀夫妻第二個就是這個前提達到之後還必須就是一年後未受孕那可是考慮凍卵的民眾"},{"start":12037.222,"end":12052.981,"text":"有八成的知道需要經過人工生殖但是卻有不到三成的人知道只有不孕夫妻才能進行人工生殖所以我的部分希望未來能夠不再排除單身女性使用人工生殖"},{"start":12053.662,"end":12081.522,"text":"另外目前因為女同志配偶可以合法結婚而且他們如果使用人工生殖不涉及到像代孕其他人的身體這樣一個複雜的問題其實世界各國有非常多人來台灣使用人工生殖的技術可是我們自己的同胞擁有公民權的合法的同志女同志伴侶卻只能遠赴海外花費超越百萬的費用甚至冒著高風險"},{"start":12082.523,"end":12100.775,"text":"還有人因此被詐騙到柬埔寨因為工作環境的惡劣流產根據同志家庭團體每年接到上千通的生養諮詢的電話有20歲到29歲的同志超過4成有意願生養所以我的版本"},{"start":12101.155,"end":12101.595,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12127.792,"end":12151.419,"text":"目前這些應該衛福部都沒有說既定的立場也沒有說支持或者不支持的那衛福部在這一次的修法的一個立場是把各種可能的要去處理的問題提出來還有這個問題處理的包括它的配套措施是什麼把它提出來"},{"start":12152.299,"end":12175.702,"text":"那像這一個所謂的委員所提到的那個包括是女同志的配偶那這些部分的話這都可以來進入討論的那因為他也會裡面有一些複雜的問題第一個他是已經依法那已經完成這一個登記的配偶"},{"start":12175.862,"end":12179.105,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12193.379,"end":12193.819,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974"},{"start":12224.766,"end":12246.492,"text":"謝謝下一位,請張綺翰,張委員。好,謝謝張委。那個我們也是請薛部長,謝謝。有請部長。委員好。誒,部長好齁。部長,把我們放出來齁。"},{"start":12261.489,"end":12264.112,"text":"提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12284.89,"end":12301.157,"text":"那坦白說啦 這個人工生殖 尤其是關於試管嬰兒這邊跟代理孕母當然這兩個是也有層次上的不一樣 我同意這樣的事情其實現在是這樣講 就是我也同意說這個代理孕母現在目前在國內這個"},{"start":12303.52,"end":12304.862,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12326.178,"end":12353.235,"text":"其實就是這個我們這表格齁就是代理運母這邊那當然現在目前我們所有的代理運母都不可以啦齁那現在是這樣講就是說如果說這一段如果說其實剛剛也有其他委員在談這件事就是說如果說這一段如果說比較困難那現在是這樣講就是往前面一點點就是現在包括這個人工生殖尤其是試管嬰兒這個地方齁我們也看到齁像現在除非就是你你就是合法的夫妻等等這些齁等等現在異性伴侶這個是沒有問題的"},{"start":12354.696,"end":12379.785,"text":"那其他的包括女女或者是男男或者單身男單身的男性或單身女性現在都碰到同樣的問題都不行所以就是說如果說我們今天還是往前再進一步因為我們很坦白說當然我們也很清楚現在的世界的潮流趨勢是不是一定要用所謂這個婚姻關係就是去框架了所有的這些或者是說就限制了所有其實也不太行"},{"start":12380.625,"end":12382.166,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12409.328,"end":12426.608,"text":"呃這個反正如果能夠這樣子先往前進一步我們是覺得說至少也而且我們也是整個婚姻這樣這個平權我們也已經這個都是很已經台灣就是假說這個在這個地方對於同志這個尊重的是幾乎是第一了嘛"},{"start":12427.628,"end":12428.088,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12447.557,"end":12448.398,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12471.494,"end":12500.035,"text":"所以我覺得說這個可能其實道理上沒有那麼複雜我倒是覺得說這個地方甚至都可以是不是直接就是應該更寬鬆的因為我們其他的有一些法令都已經都已經是解開的嘛那這個地方是不是有機會了這個這倒不是只有寬鬆不寬鬆的問題因為後面還是需要有一些配套啦那很可能我們在這邊也沒有辦法是好好去就很詳盡深入的去做討論啦"},{"start":12500.876,"end":12501.857,"text":"現在的方向是把所有的統統列出來。"},{"start":12520.369,"end":12537.246,"text":"三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、司法及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、司法及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、司法及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、司法及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、司法及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生�"},{"start":12539.668,"end":12540.909,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12560.643,"end":12563.204,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12589.34,"end":12602.655,"text":"對。這是一個選擇。很大的一個問題。那這個全世界其他國家兩種都有。對我知道。所以這個價值的選擇的部分的話是一個非常困難的。是。"},{"start":12603.796,"end":12604.317,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974"},{"start":12626.232,"end":12627.734,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12648.494,"end":12648.554,"text":"（提案號28974（"},{"start":12678.634,"end":12679.354,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12706.536,"end":12713.218,"text":"林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵、陳佩宇陳佩宇、陳佩宇、陳佩宇下一位請林衛洲、林委員謝謝昭緯有請薛部長有請薛部長"},{"start":12732.253,"end":12748.272,"text":"委員好 薛部長今天我們是要來討論人工生殖法部分條文修正草案那我們都知道這個行政院或是說衛福部還沒有提出版本"},{"start":12749.406,"end":12768.766,"text":"所以我剛剛一直聽你在回答這些委員的答案都是說尊重大院的共識所以你沒什麼立場就是說到底要支持或是你們的方向是怎麼樣是行政院或衛福部還沒有凝聚出共識嗎?"},{"start":12770.077,"end":12794.055,"text":"以目前來講的話,我們是採取一個開放的態度。開放的態度是什麼意思?開放代理孕母的態度?不管是開放哪一個,都是一樣。跟委員報告,因為我過去在以前的時候,我曾經在一些法律的雜誌上面發表過相關的文章。"},{"start":12799.719,"end":12823.118,"text":"你的觀點是什麼?我的觀點已經是不重要,因為我現在在這個位置上面,我不能用我的觀點去取代社會的共識。所以我自己會很自制的不要讓我自己個人的觀點去影響到整個社會的判斷。我記得那個部長你也是醫師嘛,也是婦產科。"},{"start":12824.379,"end":12846.423,"text":"議事,所以對這方面應該很了解那個生態啦或是現在目前的狀況或是說碰到的一些問題對,這個等到我們逐條的時候會再來討論我們也希望是行政院或衛福部是有他的一個版本跟方向才不會白費工啦"},{"start":12847.922,"end":12872.339,"text":"等到你現在都說尊重大院然後大家有共識就OK到時候這個又不符合這個行政院或衛福部的這個政策方向然後到時候阻礙了這個修法的進度都有可能以往在修法的時候常常碰到這種狀況因為你們都不表態沒有版本那到時候我們有共識了結果反而是跟你們沒共識了"},{"start":12877.383,"end":12895.155,"text":"還有一段時間要走所以我們就慢慢來討論我先請教你因為我們中午要進行職能治療師法的這個保留條文的草野協商那你們的態度是怎麼樣是不是比照物理治療師的立法模式那衛福部"},{"start":12896.092,"end":12917.423,"text":"有沒有意見?這部分的話我們建議是比照物理治療師。好,所以這樣就會順利啦,因為物理治療師已經完成這個三讀了。我們希望職能治療師法的修法也可以順利的完成。好,再來我來請教,就是說我們現在要討論這個"},{"start":12922.085,"end":12935.534,"text":"法案的修法人工生殖法你認為這個法按照現在各黨團或是委員的版本提出來有沒有助於將來改善少子化的"},{"start":12937.76,"end":12961.514,"text":"我認為第一個修這個法的目的並不是要對少子化所以未來到底會對少子化的前景會有好的影響的話那我們目前也沒有做預估啦好OK了解好當然他有其他的政策目的啦比如說保障這個權利啦各方面好那"},{"start":12962.615,"end":12989.403,"text":"少子化現在是很嚴重啦齁那大家都一直想對策要如何防止少子化更惡化齁那目前我看了一些資料齁其實有時候這個所謂現在大部分都是在後端的補助齁比如說養托育啦養兒啦齁這個學錢教育啦等等齁提高各種補助但是看到相關的一些數字齁其實第一個"},{"start":12990.953,"end":12992.314,"text":"提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13014.523,"end":13035.922,"text":"主要是不婚的比例越來越高那不婚當然就很少可能這個非婚生子女那就很少了所以不婚才是重大在台灣州是少的超過三成以上這個已經在這個失婚年齡超過三成以上都不婚了"},{"start":13036.943,"end":13058.315,"text":"所以要解決這個少子化的問題前端恐怕更重要就是說要如何讓這個願意這個結婚然後當然結婚然後生子那今天我們來討論一下我們比較這個務實的來看待這已婚的這個夫婦他們要"},{"start":13062.028,"end":13078.408,"text":"养育小孩子要生儿育女,碰到这个不孕症的治疗的问题,那我们知道2021年开始有补助,大概补助就是说针对做试管婴儿每一次补助10万块,对不对?"},{"start":13079.889,"end":13101.047,"text":"非低收入戶,如果低收入戶有補助更多。然後未滿40歲可以補助到6次。40歲以上到44歲補助3次。希望這樣子讓已婚的,因為已婚其實很多人都願意生兒育女。"},{"start":13102.468,"end":13130.642,"text":"但是像我周邊其實蠻多人碰到這個不印證的這些問題所以這個補助你們政策2021年出來以後到現在現在是2023有檢討嗎?效益如何?其實效果應該算是不錯目前的話我們已經有這一個"},{"start":13132.303,"end":13143.066,"text":"一萬三千多對接受補助產下了一萬四千名的有一點成效現在也開始在檢討針對這個補助的次數"},{"start":13149.909,"end":13178.164,"text":"要不要提高了?因為這些人就是願意生你看這個是最有效的提高生育率最好因為他願意生但是他礙於這個經濟方面的影響各方面他很辛苦我剛剛在來之前問了我一個朋友說他就是有做這個試管嬰兒我說你做了幾次才成功他說他做第11次才成功"},{"start":13180.665,"end":13207.092,"text":"好像十次革命一樣那一次要花十幾萬然後一次大概療程大概要三個月三個月到半年很辛苦媽媽也很辛苦然後放進去的這個胚胎數通常都會比你這個補助的都還多啦因為怕失敗又重來再做一次所以能不能更放寬一點"},{"start":13208.564,"end":13235.478,"text":"你這個補助因為這些人是我覺得要提高生育率這些人是最有效率的因為他本身就有意願要生小孩你如果可以給他更多的誘因我覺得這個政策效益是會最高所以我的結論檢討你們這一次雖然你們2021年開始有這樣子的補助方案用書面給我報告做一個政策"},{"start":13237.182,"end":13237.882,"text":"三次不一定會成功（"},{"start":13255.709,"end":13256.469,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13276.583,"end":13285.028,"text":"所以胚胎數一次你看你這邊也規定很嚴喔說未滿36歲最多只能植入一個胚胎啦然後36歲未滿45歲最多只能植入兩個胚胎"},{"start":13291.493,"end":13294.035,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13319.006,"end":13320.066,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13338.792,"end":13356.976,"text":"那跟委員報告齁,其中有一點齁,就是有關於這一個,比如說40歲以上的,是不是要提高次數,或者是植入的,那是不是要多一點,這可能都比涉及的比較專業,那我們會跟相關的議事會去請教他們,然後再回給委員。"},{"start":13361.417,"end":13368.826,"text":"再把書面的這個說明齁跟這個報告提供給委員會跟本席謝謝OK謝謝謝謝林委員莊靜晨莊靜晨莊靜晨"},{"start":13380.022,"end":13390.966,"text":"湯惠珍、湯惠珍、湯惠珍羅明財、羅明財、羅明財林思敏、林思敏、林思敏、高嘉宇、高嘉宇、高嘉宇、邱承遠、邱承遠、邱承遠陳瑩有請陳偉然謝昭偉麻煩請下薛部長有請薛部長"},{"start":13409.301,"end":13409.321,"text":"委員韜"},{"start":13413.099,"end":13438.492,"text":"等下不好意思因為好像辦公室的助理還沒過來是這樣子那個部長你在9月8號受訪的時候有提到在後年呢將規劃65歲以上那健保第6類的這個頭保長者呢可以免付保費那其實你講的內容其實就是說第6類排富後的這個全額補助嘛"},{"start":13441.237,"end":13460.389,"text":"好,那如果依照這樣子的內容那包括這個低收入戶中低收入戶的這個保費呢其實我們也差不多都面面俱到了那對於這個經濟弱勢的族群大概都有照顧到啦那我想說這個部長應該很了解"},{"start":13461.169,"end":13462.49,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13480.811,"end":13481.291,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13499.565,"end":13500.506,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13521.508,"end":13538.268,"text":"對於這未來將研議規劃針對健保第6類對象的這個65歲以上長者牌付後的這個全額補助我是非常樂見與還有我也很支持部長在9月8號提到的這些內容所以呢"},{"start":13538.789,"end":13552.97,"text":"我也馬上跟這個衛福部呢有提到是說我希望這個政策呢在原住民適用的這個規定應該要降到55歲這個部分那我不曉得因為我之前的質詢不曉得部長有沒有衛福部有沒有針對這個在研議"},{"start":13556.801,"end":13579.028,"text":"目前我們正在盤,盤到底有多少的對象是可以在我們未來要擴大來做健保費補助的對象,這個部分我們正在盤查。至於委員剛剛提到的,原住民是不是從65可以放到55,是這個意思嗎?"},{"start":13581.157,"end":13606.29,"text":"對,就是說至少因為你們有在盤點表示有針對本席的這個質詢要求至少你們已經有啟動至少你要研議這個政策你一定要先盤點嘛所以我是肯定部長已經有初步的動作那因為這個我也了解需要一點時間所以截至目前為止本席還是肯定部長跟衛福部的作為好不好"},{"start":13606.51,"end":13607.151,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13622.871,"end":13649.64,"text":"我因為我在10月3號的時候我看到新北市政府一個新聞稿是就是有關於這個侯友宜的這個他原住民的政見號那這個政見呢其實就是說在他們希望他們在2023年的1月開始呢就是對於把就會開始補助這個原住民"},{"start":13650.88,"end":13666.827,"text":"五十五歲的這個健保的部分相當五十五歲那其實因為你們已經在研議我前面也都質詢也都質詢過了嗎而且更好玩的是在去年11月就是我們"},{"start":13668.027,"end":13685.26,"text":"議員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會等24人擬具:「人工生殖"},{"start":13693.226,"end":13710.588,"text":"部長你這樣聽起來這樣整個看起來不就是在抄你們的也是在抄我的嗎?大概是這樣子啦好的政策我們也不主張有著作權啦所以要抄的話都是非常歡迎的"},{"start":13711.192,"end":13738.626,"text":"我真的非常佩服部長的智慧跟話術真的非常的有藝術非常的高超齁那這個本席真的遠遠不及齁我就覺得抄襲就是抄襲啦齁那部長就說欸好的政策齁欸聽我說一半我覺得很好聽欸好的政策不需要去主張著作權啊好的這個我也是改進齁好的政策不主張"},{"start":13739.787,"end":13740.027,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13763.308,"end":13779.647,"text":"新北市是走在以前鄭文燦市長主政的桃園市後面啦那如果新北市真的很在意原住民的這個政策的話第一個原住民的人口不會就這麼多的移到桃園去所以所以現在就是說"},{"start":13781.188,"end":13804.013,"text":"二零一八年齁這再順便講一下好玩的事情二零一八年我正在推動這個原住民假牙補助的時候齁那時候蘇貞昌院長也是當時他有在選新北市長那我們一起都共同在推這樣的一個政見齁結果當時的另外一個候選人也是我們侯友宜他就是說這個應該齁"},{"start":13806.654,"end":13808.515,"text":"提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13830.65,"end":13831.25,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13846.795,"end":13864.913,"text":"議員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會"},{"start":13869.898,"end":13886.566,"text":"我之前提的就是說有針對這個原住民這個駐聽器補助的部分現在你有承諾我一個月之後要回復那因為沒有人告訴我這個進度是怎樣其實已經過了一個多月快兩個月了"},{"start":13887.966,"end":13911.953,"text":"我再請陳教授這邊回覆給委員那這個部分的話在研議的結果是什麼樣子好好那因為時間的關係我就我就勉強接受你們會後來跟我們報告因為有進度才會有研議有進度才會有報告嘛那最後快速請教一下就是說部長那個文件站造福源新知的問題那我講到這個"},{"start":13914.694,"end":13915.815,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13938.132,"end":13939.193,"text":"三年過去了,通貨膨脹的狀況其實是很明顯的。"},{"start":13957.051,"end":13974.809,"text":"那部長也有感受到就是說在軍公教軍公教在去年2022年好調新了4%那再來明年2024年的時候還要再加新再調4%但是我們文件站的造福員都沒有調整"},{"start":13975.47,"end":13976.271,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":14005.57,"end":14033.518,"text":"文件站造福源跟著加薪,絕對是合情合理然後合乎規定的。所以我今天特別提出來我不曉得部長的看法怎麼樣?這個部分的話基本上因為在文件站的這個部分的話是原民會他們提計畫那一年要用多少給衛福部這邊來申請長照基金的挹注。所以我們回去會跟"},{"start":14034.338,"end":14049.871,"text":"人民會這邊再來討論。如果這個要加薪的話,那可能整個的預算會增加多少?那請人民會再來提過來給我們,那我們再來審查。好,我謝謝部長沒有在這裡就一口回絕啦。"},{"start":14051.072,"end":14051.432,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":14073.78,"end":14088.185,"text":"這個文件站造福源爭取加薪這件事情希望在這邊也謝謝部長沒有反對那我們就等原民會那也希望你們能夠大力支持是好謝謝好謝謝本日會議登記質詢委員已發言完畢委員楊耀"},{"start":14103.226,"end":14132.464,"text":"留建國林淑芬湯惠珍、莊靜晨所提的書面質詢已略入記錄刊登公報做以下決議說明及詢答完畢委員執行質詢及未答覆或需要補充的資料請相關機關有兩週之內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者無期從期所定"},{"start":14136.69,"end":14153.207,"text":"做一下決定,人工生殖法部分條文修正草案等8案令則其繼續審查。本次會議到此結束,現在散會。謝謝大家辛苦了。"}]}},{"id":"15326","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15326","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ea9f2818acb4c29c5c2e91769a1d91c6146d53a332764a535499df3513c70191f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲就「資安疑慮頻傳，如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-04","start_time":"2023-12-04T08:36:41+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-18"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-04T11:53:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":11779,"委員發言時間":"08:36:41 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今天是戴總經理趙鋒雷董事長 蕭總經理趙鋒商營總經理"},{"start":1605.713,"end":1626.662,"text":"第一銀行第一金控這個邱董事長陳總經理第一商營李總經理華南金控張董事長李總經理華銀黃總經理核庫董董事長"},{"start":1638.248,"end":1654.433,"text":"陳總經理 俄庫銀行林董事長 蘇總經理 彰化商營林董事長 周總經理 鍾曉慶張總經理"},{"start":1662.585,"end":1664.486,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好今天貴委員會安排本部就"},{"start":1690.232,"end":1692.037,"text":"資安疑慮頻傳．如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防．進行專題報告"},{"start":1698.566,"end":1713.736,"text":"請報告如下 敬請指教首先就財稅機關的資安部分做報告各個財稅機關除了要嚴格遵守《資通安全管理法》還有相關的執法規辦理各項資通安全的防護機制之外我們財稅系統的網路環境是採取內外網實體隔離那麼可以降低資料外洩還有資安攻擊的風險"},{"start":1722.102,"end":1730.505,"text":"那麼另外在於資安防護措施部分第一個就是我們110年已經建置了整合性的資安監控中心我們24小時即時的監控以及資安的預警第二個是採取多層次眾生防護網路的架構"},{"start":1738.047,"end":1761.403,"text":"並且根據行政院的政策在110年完成建制資安落點通報以及端點的防護機制。第三個對於不同業務屬性人員我們建立分權的機制嚴格控管高權賬號及限定權限的使用地點。第四個我們在105年成立的資安建檢以及數位建設團隊定期辦理財稅系統的落點掃描、滲透、測試以及資安的見證。"},{"start":1768.127,"end":1785.507,"text":"第五,對於我們不使用中國大陸廠牌的資通訊設備,委外廠商也不得有大陸籍的人士,避免資料的外洩。第六,我們每年定期辦理分散式阻斷攻擊的防護、攻防演練,因應分散式阻斷攻擊癱瘓對外的服務網站。"},{"start":1789.603,"end":1794.887,"text":"7.112年9月辦理稅務系統紅隊演練檢測系統防護措施8."},{"start":1794.887,"end":1803.613,"text":"建構本部支通安全威脅偵測管理機制提供政府領域聯防監控中心本部的監控管理資料"},{"start":1804.153,"end":1831.452,"text":"建立情資回傳還有情資分享的機制形成一個資安聯防的體系第二個部分就是公股行庫資安防護以及區域聯防的部分我們公股銀行都設置副總經理以上的資訊安全長提升資安議題的執行能力定期進行防害演練並配合強化資通安全的機制他包括了事前的聯防演練定期進行防害演練作業"},{"start":1832.733,"end":1849.967,"text":"與或者是參與主管機關、金管會以及行政院合辦或者是自己辦的資安演練以檢視系統的安全性防禦的有效性還有管理制度的落實性第二個在事中的通報應變部分我們建置多層次的防禦架構"},{"start":1851.849,"end":1864.062,"text":"偵測與攔阻惡意城市與網路威脅．搭配DDoS流量清洗防護的措施．並設置備援系統提升對外服務系統的韌性．第三個就是事後資訊的共享．"},{"start":1865.205,"end":1889.795,"text":"把資安警訊的態樣分享到金融資安資訊分享與分析中心那麼透過資安聯防分析以及回饋強化聯防監控體系以及資安的聯防功能本部將配合數位發展部的資通安全政策以及國家發展委員會的政策會持續強化資通安全管理以及各支的保護措施並且根據督導"},{"start":1890.495,"end":1890.775,"text":"好,謝謝莊部長"},{"start":1910.286,"end":1933.954,"text":"現在開始尋答做以下的宣告每位初期委員發言時間8分鐘必要得延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間5分鐘必要得延長1分鐘今日上午10點截止發言登記現在我們請林德副委員稍微等一下"},{"start":1941.775,"end":1941.795,"text":"阿賴賴賴賴賴"},{"start":1982.31,"end":2008.41,"text":"謝謝主席還有莊部長與會各列席銀行的董事長總經理還有各位同仁是不是請那個莊部長莊部長委員長那個部長因為近期很多券商他們在整個交易系統裡面也爆出一些異常"},{"start":2010.495,"end":2034.131,"text":"那這回資安的專題報告是針對財稅機關與公股行庫這個不知道近期是否也有遇到這些網路攻擊的事件有沒有跟委員報告我想網路的攻擊難免會有發生但是我們的公股行庫還有我們的財稅中心在我們的資安防護上是做到"},{"start":2035.573,"end":2063.639,"text":"嚴密,然後能夠阻擋,就先做阻擋。我想這個部分,我們必須要把它當作一個最高的警覺性,然後來做處理。這樣子喔?是。我認為這個很重要。是,當然非常重要。然後我們的相關的防護措施在我們的書面報告裡面也都做,因為要有一些示警。那示警出現了以後,我們要盡快的去做一些處理。那讓這個事情不要影響到我們整個系統的正常運作以及資料的安全。"},{"start":2065.542,"end":2071.131,"text":"部長我再請教因為台青院30日公布10月的製造業景氣燈號"},{"start":2072.918,"end":2094.051,"text":"亮出了連續四顆黃藍燈那臺經院預測中心表示展望未來整個國內製造業景氣現階段已出現了回溫的這些跡象再加上第四季整個年中這個假期消費的旺季也帶來一些這個"},{"start":2096.601,"end":2121.769,"text":"被獲的需求等等有利的因素下．可望維繫整個國內製造業生產的動能那部長先前您在9月出口先前9月出口的388.1億美元中止了12個月的衰退那當時財政部已預告9月歡紅恐是是曇花一現"},{"start":2123.61,"end":2143.707,"text":"那10月恐怕因這個基期的因素再次轉為負成長那對於緊急護書仍是存在有一些疑慮那部長媒體報導臺經驗表示製造業回溫代表有揮別谷底的這些跡象那請問你怎麼來看這個事情"},{"start":2144.944,"end":2155.138,"text":"跟委員報告9月份的我們的出口由衰退轉為正成長那我覺得這是一個很好的現象那10月份我們的出口也有381億但是因為去年達到399億所以算是一個高基期所以是負成長"},{"start":2160.945,"end":2168.331,"text":"其實說那個衰退的幅度已經縮小了那另外也要跟委員報告其實今年的出口1到10月總計有3551億的美元我們預估今年也會突破4000億的美元的一個出口值那在史上來說算是最高的因為2021跟2022是最高因為在疫情期間因為我們的製造業都沒有停"},{"start":2184.125,"end":2194.43,"text":"然後我們的一個資通訊正好在那當時遠距的一個上班跟教學的一個需求所以我們的出口值非常旺都達到4464跟2022年的4794億美元是非常高所以今年也會突破4000億那11月剛剛如同委員剛剛所說的跟12月因為年底的一個備貨的需求以及新科技的一個"},{"start":2208.038,"end":2208.698,"text":"請問你認為景氣即將揮別谷底嗎"},{"start":2226.542,"end":2246.723,"text":"這個部分當然大家都各方面都有一些正面的一些看法但是我們也認為可以做審慎樂觀的看待但是我想國際間仍然有一些不確定的因素包括通膨升息的一些循環的一些後續的一些影響以及地緣政治的一些風險會不會有相關的我覺得還是要密切的一些關注"},{"start":2247.484,"end":2269.262,"text":"是不是有可能像9月10月這種狀況又是只有曇花一現經濟景氣又緩轉會不會跟委員報告就跟您剛剛報告也就是不是曇花一現是因為10月份因為去年的基期399億是非常高的所以我們雖然10月份的出口有381億但是還是成年增率上面是成了一個負成長是那個部長是"},{"start":2270.463,"end":2286.708,"text":"經濟合作發展組織上個禮拜公布最新的經濟展望由於債務水準較高而且利率的這些展望仍不明朗那全球明年經濟成長預料將稍有緩緩但避開硬著陸的風險不長上個禮拜財委會質詢的時候本席有針對"},{"start":2295.731,"end":2318.302,"text":"這個財政部認為出口黎明將至那你認為會不會有太過熱觀跟委員報告因為剛剛如同剛剛報告的其實今年我們的出口會突破4000億也是史上的第三高除了2021跟2022年最高以外我們會突破到4000億那已經比之前的幾年因為從"},{"start":2319.142,"end":2319.842,"text":"你那時候回答本席是11、12月出口,渴望轉正"},{"start":2339.929,"end":2347.031,"text":"請問你認為第4季的出口轉正可以樂觀期待的原因是不是因為你認為第4季是國內經濟成長已經確定的一個股體翻轉"},{"start":2352.938,"end":2381.012,"text":"是不是第4屆我想跟委員報告就是在國內的部分民間的消費是持續的成長不管零售業或者是餐飲這些營業額都是持續成長所以國內的消費動能是穩定的那至於出口的部分我們剛剛也已經說過就是說因年底的部分因為科技新貨的一些備貨以及AI還有雲端需求的一些等等需要的一些我們的一些產品所以在出口值的部分可以"},{"start":2382.453,"end":2386.636,"text":"對於第4屆的出國轉正的看法,針對OECD對明年整個全球經濟成長緩緩的預測,請問你認為明年開始台灣會不會也有這些經濟成長緩緩的餘力存在,會不會?"},{"start":2404.349,"end":2413.034,"text":"有關國內的經濟成長,我們組織總署會綜合國內外的最新經濟情勢做一個案記的發佈的展望,這個組總這個部分會去做他們有相關的資料收集跟有一定的專業人員在那邊做預測那所以呢根據組總11月的他所發佈的就是說今年的經濟成長率會是1.42,但是明年他們的估測是3.35的百分比部長"},{"start":2431.405,"end":2453.4,"text":"因為以OECD的預估美國和其他地區啊陷入硬著陸的這個風險緩解不過由於這個黃式的疲軟油價的高漲和民間融資的情況欠佳那經濟衰退的風險仍然沒有消失所以預測美國明年的經濟成長率將從今年的2.4%明顯的降至1.5%那部長"},{"start":2460.925,"end":2484.364,"text":"因為根據財政部的統計7月臺灣對美國出口的佔總總額是17.4%創下近10年來單月的新高那請問如果明年整個美國經濟成長成長率如OECD預測一樣的衰退你認為臺灣出口會不會受到美國的影響會不會"},{"start":2486.677,"end":2505.955,"text":"委員報告我想這個出口除了美國以外我們主計總署也綜合考量其他的主要經濟體還有全球的一個成長率那另外也考量到我們的產業他在庫存回復健康情況下那世界貿易的成長率貿易量的成長率可以渴望是可以回升的加上我們有人工"},{"start":2506.015,"end":2509.097,"text":"財政部對出口黎明將至的這些樂觀期待會不會變成又要保守的觀望會不會跟委員報告第一我們採取我們是以審慎樂觀但是還是要密切的一些關注"},{"start":2536.271,"end":2553.38,"text":"部長,上個月美國財政部把台灣列入最新的匯率操縱國觀察的名單,但是隨著美國聯準會割派的言論,外資放量大幅度的匯率下,"},{"start":2554.543,"end":2574.815,"text":"新台幣對美元不斷的狂漲後續疫料持續生生不息甚至不排除一舉衝破31元的整個大關請問部長近期新台幣的升值對出口與進口商"},{"start":2575.615,"end":2582.68,"text":"到底有什麼影響我想跟委員報告就是說出口當然也受到新台幣的匯率影響之外當然還有其他很多項因素的影響包含市場的供需狀況還有個別廠商我們出口廠商的競爭力還有產品的品質還有客戶的合作關係這些都會影響到我們的出口值那個別廠商的差異性也比較大所以不能概括而論那我想對於匯率的一個調整對於我們出口廠商的影響"},{"start":2604.915,"end":2610.676,"text":"以及提供要不要提供相關的輔導那主管機關經濟部應該會做一些密切的關注同時如果需要的話他也會應該也會對產業去做相關的輔導其實最近那個經濟部對於我們的產業做低碳化以及智慧化的一個轉型升級一直在加強的輔導也是希望在這個景氣能夠回穩的時候我們的企業能夠有一個成長的一個動能可以做更好的一些發展"},{"start":2634.722,"end":2635.122,"text":"那我請問部長"},{"start":2663.032,"end":2690.524,"text":"出口商對於新台幣升值可能產生的匯損的因應對策是不是都有萬全的準備這個部分因為第一個匯率的部分涉及到央行的一個權責以及出口商在面對匯率的變動的時候他有沒有因應的對策以及經濟部會要採取什麼樣的相關的協助或者是輔導的措施這個部分都會要去考慮的"},{"start":2691.264,"end":2706.997,"text":"為了平仰物價財政部宣布明年大宗物資降稅措施在延長再加上新台幣升值的趨勢那請問你認為對國內整個進口商是不是利多會不會反映在明年整個消費者物價指數上"},{"start":2708.678,"end":2720.802,"text":"財政部在有關降低所謂的關稅、貨物稅還有營業稅這些大宗物資還有汽柴油的一些稅的部分目的就是希望能夠減緩進口商的一個成本的壓力那我們也希望對於這些減稅的措施能夠反映在售價上讓民眾可以感受到"},{"start":2729.284,"end":2732.365,"text":"那這個是部分延長到明年的3月31號這個部分的國稅局還有我們的關區的同仁們會去持續和相關的機關去做一些查價不要變成一些囤積的情形這個部分我們會持續的關注我想降稅這個措施就是要緩和物價的一個上升的措施"},{"start":2757.409,"end":2758.17,"text":"吳秉瑞委員財政部莊部長"},{"start":2782.867,"end":2807.493,"text":"委員好部長早在去年的9月還有今年的5到7月國內有一家銀行當然是民營的啦他的65家分行都發生資料外洩有14000名客戶的資料外洩被金管會罰了1000萬這個事情你應該知道吧"},{"start":2811.793,"end":2830.742,"text":"我們公股銀行有沒有這樣的資料外泄的可能以及有沒有發生這樣的案例或許規模沒有這麼大比較小規模的有沒有我們公股銀行我們大概了解就是說有一些資安的通報的事項但是就相關的"},{"start":2831.442,"end":2833.483,"text":"所以還是有一些發生只是他的狀況可能洩漏少數的人士而不是像這樣大規模"},{"start":2860.155,"end":2884.213,"text":"在發聲我覺得一定要做一些檢討作為精進的一個警示的一個功能這個本身是資訊安全但是另外一點就是現在的詐騙的犯罪很多那詐騙的犯罪裡面有很多是透過銀行的這個系統當然銀行不是不知情那銀行其實某一個角度來講也是被害"},{"start":2885.287,"end":2904.16,"text":"但是如何配合政府的設施用銀行的角度來講能夠讓詐騙的這個狀況能夠減少呢或是讓詐騙犯他這個轉帳各方面不方便使得他不能再利用這樣的體系至少去壓抑他有沒有什麼樣比較好的方法"},{"start":2904.88,"end":2916.507,"text":"我想委員提出的很對,這個部分因為通常詐騙有時候跟金流會有關係,所以我們在銀行端一定要做到一個防詐、試詐的一個發揮這個作用,所以在客戶開戶的時候要詳細了解他開戶的目的是什麼,以及他賬戶未來的用途是什麼,對於開戶者要多加了解。"},{"start":2924.531,"end":2939.41,"text":"第2個就是說對於一些警示的帳戶要有警覺性一定要做處理同時我們要配合金管會的相關措施以及所謂的一個揮名單就是約定轉帳的揮名單也要有非常重要的一個處理還有櫃員非常重要"},{"start":2939.83,"end":2944.412,"text":"貴賓對於客戶的時候可以多問幾句那如果在這個過程當中因為貴賓的關懷所以讓這個詐騙沒有辦法進行下去我們對於這個貴賓應該要加強的管這個獎勵然後能夠讓其他的行員也都知道那我們把案例也要做分享"},{"start":2957.338,"end":2969.651,"text":"那這樣大家可以多做學習然後更精進我想這個部分銀行是絕對是責無旁貸一起來做這個工作有沒有統計過經過採取這樣的措施之後詐騙這個數量有降低了這樣的一個趨勢就是說發現了多少詐騙的減少多少這個部分的數字是不是沒有統計目前我們還沒有統計"},{"start":2980.122,"end":3008.706,"text":"11月29號你們財政部也有發現說有用釣魚的電子郵件假冒這個報稅服務然後叫退稅然後點那個系統進去有發現這樣子的案例所以這個也是一種另外一種詐騙那是利用這個報稅或是要退稅這樣的這樣的機會在詐欺這些客戶這個你有沒有什麼樣的好的宣傳因為其實一般的民眾尤其年紀稍大一點的他搞不清楚這些網站到底是誰的網站"},{"start":3010.829,"end":3033.638,"text":"這個部分發現了我們一定都有相關的處理然後截止但我想你委員這個提示是就是說我們要做什麼宣導也就是第一個宣導的目的是讓民眾不要再受騙第二個目的其實就讓這些詐騙者不要存僥倖的心理因為我們會抓得到因為我們是24小時在監控你這些偉貌的網站及釣魚網站我覺得這個具有兩方面的功能我們應該再加強這個宣導"},{"start":3035.759,"end":3037.92,"text":"其實這個議題是本席從12年前到現在還是持續一直在關心的就是曝險的問題"},{"start":3064.4,"end":3083.762,"text":"你知道中國的這個中融信託最近爆了你知道嗎他的那個基金還有利息賠付不出來那中融信託當然規模比較小但是他是一個非常大的金融機構中子集團底下的議員這個"},{"start":3086.55,"end":3107.222,"text":"因為這個中子集團做了很多中國的房貸那在中國做房貸你就說中國現在那些房子那個房子都很慘嘛爛尾樓也蓋不完各方面都很慘包括恆大啦包括碧桂園啊等等很多個大型的這個房屋的房企"},{"start":3108.505,"end":3108.525,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":3128.649,"end":3155.052,"text":"我們公股銀行9家公股銀行對中國的撲選持續減少我這個是很肯定就算持續減少現在仍然還有2000多億還不包括這個沒有被金管會監管的影子銀行這些租賃公司那中國的經濟他的財政明顯在很快速的要出問題在這樣的狀況之下有什麼好的方法讓我們這個撲選不會變成暴雷"},{"start":3157.984,"end":3180.639,"text":"您有沒有什麼樣的想法?是,跟委員報告,確實在大陸曝險的部分,我們逐年下降,目前是2143億,那佔比是12%,就是佔它的淨值比。那剛剛您提到大陸的一些經濟成長趨緩,甚至在不動產的部分,碧桂園等等的一些暴雷的情形,當然銀行都會有受到牽連。那有關,我們講,我們會持續的督請我們的公股,"},{"start":3183.661,"end":3209.655,"text":"的代表對於大陸地區的不管是徵售性或你剛剛講的相關的業務還有貸貨管理的措施要加強進行控管同時對於客戶客戶他整體曝險的進行要進行控管也就是我們在大陸的客戶對他的一個情形要加強的控管我想這個部分是應該要做的現在九家公股銀行在中國的客戶如果照以前張勝和在當財政部長的時候他是跟我回答說主要都是做台商"},{"start":3210.815,"end":3235.794,"text":"那現在呢還是主要是台商還是有一些中國那邊的企業主要當然還是台商為主對台商為主但是所謂的為主為輔是怎麼樣為主50%也可以說為主啊那比例是怎麼樣比例的部分我想這個部分我們手邊並沒有是我們是不是會後再來做一些瞭解跟委員報告我還記得在這個"},{"start":3238.196,"end":3246.651,"text":"2015年的時候還有某家我們公股銀行在大陸的時候在放貸的時候還有被錄影有這個收回扣這樣的狀況那個事情處理了嗎"},{"start":3250.369,"end":3252.471,"text":"我現在希望你們能夠統計到底做的"},{"start":3276.391,"end":3292.359,"text":"你說這個曝險兩千一百多億多少比例是台商的多少比例非台商的至少要給一個大概的數字另外我們九家公股銀行在中國的這一些都是分行不是子行吧有沒有子行的"},{"start":3294.327,"end":3320.029,"text":"有哪個紙行張瑩如果是紙行紙行是比較好你知道嗎因為紙行跟母行是不同的法人所以中間還有一個這還有一個防火牆可以隔開分行是沒辦法隔開的所以你在分行在如果在中國這邊如果將來如果踩雷爆雷了之後他整個母公司都會受到影響從分行會燒出來"},{"start":3321.71,"end":3326.112,"text":"臺商在中國的製造業也慢慢有一些在轉移了有一些移回來臺灣有一些移到東南亞"},{"start":3337.276,"end":3337.616,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3352.305,"end":3352.445,"text":"謝謝 各位請回"},{"start":3382.898,"end":3383.484,"text":"接著請賴氏寶委員"},{"start":3404.345,"end":3426.012,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請財政部的莊部長以及八大行庫的董事長莊部長跟八大行庫的是金控還是銀行金控金控如果沒有金控的話就是銀行"},{"start":3434.972,"end":3455.082,"text":"先看一下,來幾位長官先看下一頁好了,再下一頁我們今年幾乎是這幾年來金礦賺最多的一年吧,是不是?獲利,獲利不錯獲利最好嘛,造風雷董事長啊"},{"start":3456.4,"end":3477.734,"text":"聽說員工很喜歡你,說你很大方,你們賺了288億啊,在10月底,是嗎?明年加薪多少?4.5%有人在講你現在賺這麼多,4.5%是半年前預估的,現在賺這麼多,可以再加個0.5%有沒有可能?"},{"start":3478.797,"end":3480.338,"text":"這個我看到的是義營4%華營4%張營4%何苦都不加是吧何苦都不加"},{"start":3505.922,"end":3526.593,"text":"董事長報告委員我們也是4%為目標但是我們平常就是確定沒有確定沒有確定了確定了4%確定4%但是我們還有晉級加薪那個2.66%的還有一個是台企要台企多少4%4%台灣金寇跟土耳其4%是吧都4%是吧好部長有一個問題啊是"},{"start":3536.312,"end":3554.219,"text":"剛才何苦董事長講說賺這麼多錢啊你們還要扣勞工的員工的伙食費600塊600塊以前是2400塊免稅今年財政部調了3000塊就600塊是免稅變3000結果所有的要加薪的行庫都把600塊變成include內加內含應該是外加"},{"start":3566.74,"end":3569.65,"text":"這600塊我就跟你講的是這600塊應該外加不是內涵部長你知道我講什麼嗎"},{"start":3573.977,"end":3592.846,"text":"因為我們這次調2000是到3000塊那個是說在這裡面不用把它放到員工的薪水裡面去所以這個部分是不納入員工薪資所以不會載入它綜合所得的裡面去可是雷董市長你錢賺最多的"},{"start":3599.571,"end":3626.734,"text":"你們這個六百塊你們把它內涵了他給你六百塊你把它內涵了所以等於沒有加我們再加給他們extra外加可以嗎extraextra對可是臺灣金庫來來來臺灣金庫你們是內涵的喔你們內涵喔你是要內涵外加吧抱歉我剛剛沒有注意到你剛才outside沒有認真聽啊你知不知道"},{"start":3628.654,"end":3641.558,"text":"現在所有的公股行庫的金扣的員工他的伙食費加600你知道嗎你也不知道這我沒注意你董事長說什麼你現在不知道勞工的權利600塊那個國營行庫都是內涵的國營行庫內涵何苦的外交呢兆豐"},{"start":3659.418,"end":3670.167,"text":"報告委員 處理的方式不同啦 因為以前在省屬行庫的時候都是內涵 但是後來改變成現在改變外加啦 人家處理方式不同"},{"start":3677.36,"end":3696.501,"text":"張華英郎,你們的員工聲音叫很大聲喔,說你這個苛刻員工啊,這應該外加的喔,變內涵捏。你不是臺土營啊,臺土營啊,另外講。我們沒有苛刻員工啊。那你為什麼把他內涵捏,不要外加捏。照封就外加捏。"},{"start":3698.15,"end":3704.514,"text":"這個就是因為財政部有公布就是火石貨幣...我們是依照財政部的相關的規定那對員工來講的話..."},{"start":3714,"end":3732.853,"text":"不是,我們為員工的福利著想的話,我們把他加的伙食費,加了600塊之後,其實這部分是屬於他的免稅所得啦。沒有,你是include,我現在跟你們講,部長好好研究啦,大家八大行工與世同仁,你不要大家心裡不一樣,造風就外加,其他的就是內涵。"},{"start":3733.633,"end":3749.747,"text":"這件事有相對的剝奪感,部長,去研究一下吧,可以嗎?於是同仁都外加,不要內涵啦,不一樣啦,差很多啦,減六百咧,一年就差七千多喔,你知道我意思嗎?"},{"start":3750.787,"end":3775.5,"text":"我想委員您的意思應該是指火石費是不是要把它放在薪資外面對!就是你不要放在薪資裡面嘛!火石費要放在薪資外啦!對不對?不能放在加薪裡面啦!它不算加薪的那個4%裡面啦!你只要等於把他拖了600塊啦!那我們再進一步了解好不好?這個銀行我剛剛列了那個銀行每一屆都大賺錢"},{"start":3776.741,"end":3790.676,"text":"每一家都搭賺錢你跟員工績效600塊沒有道理啊沒有天亮啊了解了解委員的意思我們再進一步了解各位董事長各位董事長請回答特別那個張華英讓林董事長你回答非常"},{"start":3792.357,"end":3808.444,"text":"林董事長的回答非常的狀況外你不是土銀也不是台銀董事長你是彰化銀行不一樣你如果今天講台銀土銀還可以講你今天是彰化銀行不能這樣講你要比這兆豐比這兆豐來我們來看今天講資訊了"},{"start":3820.411,"end":3828.665,"text":"綜合所得稅可以線上報稅網頁報稅可以嘛手機驗證可是移屬稅、營業稅、醫政稅、政理稅都要用特別軟體下載"},{"start":3836.063,"end":3858.456,"text":"來,張主任,可不可以概稱啊,我知道張主任才不太會回答這問題什麼時候可以不需要下載軟體直接比照中屬稅用網頁審報、手機驗證、線上保險,可以嗎?可以嗎?我們再研究一下,因為這個稅的方式不一樣這個要做很快"},{"start":3862.366,"end":3869.921,"text":"請問你有沒有往這個努力方向?應該往這個方向努力我們會往這個方向來努力啦什麼時候會有答案?"},{"start":3872.085,"end":3881.791,"text":"我想會在更新系統之後我們預計在明年明年6月可以吧114年會有新系統目前的系統113年還是舊系統114所以我們不能講114年開始"},{"start":3894.958,"end":3908.918,"text":"可以包括銀索稅、銀頁稅、移證稅統統不需要再下載一個軟體那個像盲腸一樣啊直接我們就一樣線上進步一點啦與師同居俱進"},{"start":3910.62,"end":3910.8,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3929.429,"end":3929.449,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":3948.629,"end":3950.57,"text":"總共花多少錢?大概400萬左右400萬喔?那效果怎麼樣?"},{"start":3968.105,"end":3971.148,"text":"壓力測試你們有過關嗎?過關上線沒有上線沒有已經上線了"},{"start":3989.988,"end":3993.111,"text":"我從經濟部商業室可以找到公司的負責人姓名也可以找到個人身分證"},{"start":4019.721,"end":4046.26,"text":"我們現在不要懷疑部長你我的名字都被賣掉了我們的個資都被賣掉了在世界上都被賣掉了結果呢來我們來看下一頁我個人比如張三啊是A公司的負責人我就進去財政部點資深報教水服務網"},{"start":4048.42,"end":4070.362,"text":"裏面我就可以重新reset重新設定裏面的一些的參數等等的簡單來講就是現在我們的個資已經外洩我透過經濟部知道哪一家公司的負責人比如說這負責人叫賴某某然後我看到他的身份證我用他來"},{"start":4071.643,"end":4098.775,"text":"進到財政部裡面了報稅的資料就可以改欸可以改欸要多繳的變少繳少繳的變多繳看到的目的是什麼變這個樣子欸目前目前這個來來來我再補充一下就是經濟部的這部分因為他是營業人他登記的營業人的資料他是必須要公開的所以他是可以查到但是他查到的時候到財政部的密碼不應該會是一樣的"},{"start":4105.504,"end":4126.052,"text":"我現在告訴你已經有人進去了透過你這個電子申報繳稅服務網就進去裡面這些都可以reset把它改請問怎麼辦我剛剛特別問你紅隊演練你沒有演練到這個地方啊稅的資料如果被篡改怎麼辦"},{"start":4128.01,"end":4144.483,"text":"我想這個部分我們會針對他這個密碼的驗證的部分再做加強就要求他有雙重的兩種因子我知道你答案就在這裡啦其實你的密碼提示這個人家駭客要做很簡單他破你這個都很容易啦用幾個下去跑幾次密碼就跑出來我覺得這一部分我剛才很遺憾的聽到"},{"start":4156.011,"end":4180.184,"text":"我剛才以為你們報告很偉大紅堆引力其實大家最在意的不是只有發票啦在意的是稅啦種所稅、營所稅、營業稅最在意結果你們現在這個東西是開大門根本空空的要加強好不好先做一個我這裡就兩個重點第一個重點我們希望"},{"start":4181.164,"end":4204.291,"text":"一年以後能夠全部線上不要再下載你的軟體第二個你的這個稅的安全的資安的問題我覺得可以再強化了目前不夠目前看到是沒有沒有做這個事情了解一下就一個名字加上一個身分證號就可以進到我們報稅系統改資料我覺得這個我們再詳細了解一下一個情況謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":4210.742,"end":4227.112,"text":"好 謝謝各位請回接著請省發會委員主席請莊部長好 莊部長委員好部長早"},{"start":4237.662,"end":4261.344,"text":"這個今天第一個想跟部長探討一下有關我們現在我們鼓勵這個小規模營業人他能夠導入這個行動支付接受這個消費者使用行動支付的這樣子的我們為了這個能夠鼓勵這些小規模的營業人所以我們有一個辦法"},{"start":4262.625,"end":4272.612,"text":"有一個作業規範叫做小規模營業人導入行動支付適用租稅優惠作業規範對不對這個規範好像是107年開始實施了那108年的時候有延長了那這個"},{"start":4282.11,"end":4302.898,"text":"他大概就是說我看大意大概是這樣子這個作業規範就是說你如果來申請申請經過核准你使用這個行動支付的話你可以有一些租稅優惠"},{"start":4304.588,"end":4319.013,"text":"最主要就是按照營業稅法第32條第一項的單書他就變成營業性質特殊的營業人營業性質特殊的營業人他就不受使用統一發票的標準的限制"},{"start":4321.142,"end":4348.681,"text":"包括它的銷售平均每個月要20萬這個限制就沒有了對不對?是是,縱使超過也是還是適用它原來沒有超過但是它有一些申請要件它不是說你有用行動支付就可以享受這個租稅優惠有一些申請要件包括你要使用智慧行動載具包括你要由這個行動支付業者來提出申請"},{"start":4350.022,"end":4360.006,"text":"包括說要提供你們的銷售資料、銷售額、營業額等等相關的申請條件請問部長這個規範是從大概107年就開始了107年原本是107年到109年了108年的時候我們再延長5年我們會一直實施到114年就是2025年會實施到2025年"},{"start":4378.447,"end":4389.015,"text":"財政部長這個到目前為止的實施成效怎麼樣?到目前為止已經有核准的有1萬7099家的小規模營業人適用這一項的優惠"},{"start":4398.594,"end":4421.562,"text":"這個一萬七千零九十九家這個是從一百零七年累積到現在對不對是的是的一百零七年累積到今年一百一十二年全國才一萬七千零九十九家是用這個租稅優惠而已是來提出申請對提出申請也核准了我們跟去年比較啦齁去年一年大概增加多少家"},{"start":4422.458,"end":4449.231,"text":"去年一月到...您說說今年是不是?我跟你講今年跟去年齁我這邊幫你算了啦今年度齁大概增加三千家啦對不對一整年大概增加三千家對不對?署長對不對?今年增加三千家啦齁三千家也就平均一個月大概差不多兩百三十三家啦"},{"start":4450.914,"end":4470.211,"text":"233家我們以這個我們台灣22縣市來看每個縣市平均大概一年只增加10家左右而已部長這個我們有鼓勵到嗎?我們有推廣到嗎?這個申請是不是我們有沒有檢討我們這個"},{"start":4472.282,"end":4474.105,"text":"這個租稅優惠的規範的這個相關的規定是不是為什麼這麼多年107年到現在才全台灣才1萬家1萬7千家"},{"start":4485.749,"end":4511.001,"text":"從委員做的這張表裡面非常詳細我們可以看出來一開始的成長比較快到後來就呈現一個緩慢的一個趨勢我想這個部分我們確實應該要去了解原因在哪裡然後能夠針對這樣的一個原因去做一個解決然後達到鼓勵小規模營業人能夠導入行動支付我想這個部分是委員的提示對我現在就是要你們檢討為什麼要找原因嘛是對要找原因對"},{"start":4515.884,"end":4539.751,"text":"是,報告委員,因為所有導入行動支付,它小規模依然還是要符合一些硬體的要件,簡單講,它必要有行動支付的一些設備之類的,所以他們考量的因素很多,但是我們現在國稅局,我們請各地區國會局都加強輔導,然後其實像有一些中介業者,包含記者業者都有協助我們去宣導,怎麼樣去導入。"},{"start":4539.991,"end":4541.632,"text":"工具上面可以簡化然後再去針對他們的真正的問題然後做輔導我想這是有必要的"},{"start":4569.107,"end":4569.367,"text":"好的,我們來檢討"},{"start":4597.248,"end":4612.175,"text":"再來就是你這些小的營業人他自己本身的疑慮我想問署長我這個問署長不要問署長署長請問這些小規模營業人他如果導入這個行動支付申請這個租稅優惠他的整體賦稅會不會變重"},{"start":4615.047,"end":4635.857,"text":"應該這樣說就稅率它是維持百分之一整體負稅會不會變重但是它實際銷售額如果增加那我們根據它實際銷售額來合併它實際銷售額增加當然就增加啦我是說它如果它就是以這個要件它導入這個行動支付之後申請這個租稅優惠會不會因為這個申請而使它的負稅變重"},{"start":4636.957,"end":4637.337,"text":"這個Q&A裡面的第10點"},{"start":4660.083,"end":4671.67,"text":"第10點所問的問題Q就是我剛剛一字不漏的問你的問題但是你們的A裡面回答不是像你說不會你們回答是未必會增加"},{"start":4673.644,"end":4679.708,"text":"委員因為這是他實際銷售的增加所以你們這個Q&A到底回答了什麼人家這些小規模業人就是怕說我用這個我付稅款來增加到底會不會你們說不一定會啦"},{"start":4691.735,"end":4691.995,"text":"這個學法是..."},{"start":4712.592,"end":4738.451,"text":"報告委員他是把剛才您問我的前段實際銷售額增加的時候他說服會增加這件事情他把病到這個回答裡面去敘述了這個齁我們整個都要檢討啦包括我剛講的這些要件像你們這種Q&A你們這種要設身處地站在這些小規模營業人的立場來想想像為什麼大家申請的這個我們申請的比例這麼低啦"},{"start":4740.902,"end":4759.885,"text":"再來部長另外一個問題我們這個從這個實施清安貸款從今年我們新的這個今年安心成家購屋的優惠貸款新的制度今年8月1號上路了"},{"start":4761.027,"end":4786.498,"text":"是這個我們的額度提高嘛我們的這個年限也延長嘛那我們的利率補貼也增加嘛所以這個看起來從8月到現在從今年我們看今年8月到10月我看這個我們的這個成效是爆量了申請是爆量是增加倍數增加對跟去年的同期是倍數增加對跟去年同期是倍數增加"},{"start":4787.964,"end":4816.293,"text":"我這裡有這個一個比較在去年包括不管是我們的這個申請的戶數或核貸的戶數或核貸的金額或者是我們受理的戶數受理的金額都幾乎幾乎這個都是倍數成長了都倍數成長所以這個政策齁這個政策我們應該要多多宣導我們要讓大家青年知道說我們現在這個優惠我們看我們這樣子增加之後我們"},{"start":4817.473,"end":4835.448,"text":"這個新的制度之後就增加這麼多人來申請我們的親安貸款所以我們應該更應該財政部應該加強宣導說我們有這樣子的方案對不對我想這個因為我們親安貸款是對於首購主所以這些應該都是第一次買房子對他們來說有很大的一個幫助"},{"start":4836.649,"end":4862.044,"text":"讓他減輕初期的貸款負擔我現在這樣爆量但是我看這個我們現在這個新興貸款上路8月上路以後我們公股的辦理的情形在我們公股來講看起來還集中在台銀跟土銀台銀跟土銀加起來大概就差不多45%了將近快要一半其他的公股行戶他所佔的相關的這些業務量其實都還蠻低他們都還有宣導的空間對不對"},{"start":4865.941,"end":4886.574,"text":"因為這裡看起來台銀跟土銀的比例都佔到26%跟25%可是我們做一個宣導齁有一個前幾天叫里長買票被抓的這個立委候選人說說我們這個這個我們強制說我們這個財政部強迫公股做宣導他說這個是大內宣這個是洗腦"},{"start":4892.145,"end":4908.183,"text":"部長這樣子的政策對於首次購屋的青年來講是有這樣子的優惠而且有這麼大的幫助我們從這個新的制度8月到10月我們就看到它所爆出來的量跟成效我們就知道幫助很大應該要加強宣導"},{"start":4909.344,"end":4928.814,"text":"他不是什麼洗腦也不是什麼大內宣他就是一個加強宣導也是我們除了台銀、土銀以外其他公股行戶彰化銀行等公股行戶應該要加強宣導的對不對是的我們希望首購族都能夠享受到這個政府優惠的一個措施"},{"start":4929.674,"end":4951.026,"text":"所以部長這部分我希望說我們能夠讓更多更多的這些手夠的青年能夠了解到我們政府現在有這樣子的貸款方式然後有我們所有這些行庫大家都可以做這樣子的貸款這個部分請我們要加強宣導要加強這個宣傳好不好是謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝各位請會接著請郭國文委員"},{"start":4961.83,"end":4989.646,"text":"主席有請莊部長莊部長委員好部長好我想今天針對今天主席所安排這個專題報告的內容來說的話洋洋灑灑你們寫了好幾頁不論是項目跟內容羅列了許多但是本席想要知道的是說到底這些惡意的這個治安的攻擊他的目標"},{"start":4991.428,"end":4991.708,"text":"哪個財啊?"},{"start":5017.745,"end":5036.894,"text":"就是從個人資料取得資訊的財可以拿到個人資料然後還有機會拿到取到金錢或者是拿去賣還有包括惡意阻斷他也不是要什麼他就是把你癱瘓而已那你們哪幾個單位這種現象最嚴重哪個單位最有財啊"},{"start":5043.621,"end":5045.723,"text":"財經中心最嚴重對不對?那最嚴重大概多少筆?都沒有看到你寫啊!像那個官茂就有五萬多筆啊!"},{"start":5061.952,"end":5080.676,"text":"我們並沒有洩漏個人資料我不是說你洩漏個人資料我說那被攻擊的次數因為台灣是被被網軍攻擊被駭客入侵最嚴重我就想要知道到底財政部是哪幾個部門或哪幾個公股銀行受到這一個網軍最大的興趣我要知道的是這一個啊"},{"start":5081.596,"end":5107.351,"text":"這才知道你的目標對象是誰他背後的目的是什麼然後你重點要防範的是什麼我都看不出來我就看到你這寫了一大堆啷啷洋洋灑灑的一個措施內容但是我是覺得你應該從目標導向來倒推回來才對啊處長是嗎你有沒有會診過我本席就問你這一點就好這當然有當然有有我想要看的報告我都看不到啊你有的都沒有寫出來"},{"start":5108.791,"end":5133.427,"text":"是不方便透露還是實體下可以給我還是給主席也一份好了我先跟委員報告就是攻擊次數跟攻擊成功是不一樣的那我們只知道目前的現況到底多嚴重哪些受到攻擊最嚴重這份報告當中沒有看到這個所以我們可以會後補充攻擊的數字接下來我想請部長"},{"start":5135.555,"end":5141.805,"text":"財政部知道這個手法之後馬上就會立即通知交給165警政署處理是不是165專線"},{"start":5149.407,"end":5167.647,"text":"那這跟民間的報案有什麼不一樣我們是官方機構欸對啊難道沒有一個斷然的措施嗎通知數位部立即斷網嗎啊任由那個網路上還有人拿著財政部的名號在那邊招搖撞騙這有損政府名譽欸沒有這種方式嗎"},{"start":5168.788,"end":5192.638,"text":"方式裡面沒有這個就是第一個我們給165第二個就是你通報程序就一般民眾有什麼不一樣他們去判斷以後就可以去做下架對啊要立即斷網嘛你還在通報程序讓他再繼續招搖撞騙然後另外一個時機點也不對嘛他那個時機點你們一般退稅是7月10月跟隔年的1月嘛而且詐騙時機點也不對啊不是嗎"},{"start":5195.197,"end":5223.651,"text":"這民眾不清楚你在通報退稅的時間點嘛不是嗎跟委員報告就是因為入口進去的話繳稅的部分就會到財經公司那財經公司這邊的這個合作方式就是直接透過165詐騙那165他這邊因為有行事警察局有做協詢跟切斷的這個作業我是那個處長這種方式他要留於流程啦程序啦"},{"start":5224.13,"end":5242.65,"text":"我意思是說要有一個斷然的處理方式啦政府機關跟這個不一樣而且跟民眾的宣導也要有那個時間點的概念根本不太可能現在有11月有退稅的事情發生嘛好我再拉回來跟你講一樣是詐騙的齁那處長就上來了我拉回來講那CRS的部分查稅又查詔的部分齁"},{"start":5243.871,"end":5267.206,"text":"你知道那個部長我們跟澳洲跟日本英國有簽訂這個CRS共同申報準則這所謂的台版肥咖條款我今天先不問你說你現在找到多少肥咖那麻煩你回去稍微找一下但是這個肥咖的部分找到之後你有可能會揪出犯罪集團的海外資產嗎有沒有可能"},{"start":5268.339,"end":5287.733,"text":"我想這個部分是一個互相通報的一個對阿互相通報也就是說這個詐騙集團他也可能是肥咖阿只是怎麼肥的方式不一樣而已阿有的是用騙來變肥的阿有的是用賺來變肥的阿只是不同樣的肥咖的肥咖那有沒有可能透過同樣的一個機制裡頭把它查到"},{"start":5290.858,"end":5312.257,"text":"這兩個應該功能上不太一樣第一個我們就是要知道就是說因為他把錢存在海外的帳戶突然暴增的時候你們兩國之間互相通報你也可以看得出來啊對不對重點是核對嘛對不對共同申報核對嘛怎麼突然他的帳戶突然增加了增加的時候你可能就去查"},{"start":5312.978,"end":5335.487,"text":"查後面可能就查出來可能是詐騙集團所以你可以一兼兩顧這個主要是基於稅務用途需要的一個金融資訊的一個教材你就是想只有想到稅務而已本期想到的不止稅務主管機關在查緝的時候如果發現有當然有其他的方法或是細節的方法可以的既能查稅又能查詐"},{"start":5337.308,"end":5358.382,"text":"對不對?是有這種功能啊!我一直說你要注意到有這種功能那既然有這種功能的話你就不應該澳洲、日本、英國之外那我就要問啊那我們在海外所得比較多的國家是這三個國家難道沒有其他的國家嗎?還有吧歐盟啊、美國啊或中國啊我們一個一個逐步在推動那下一個是哪一個?"},{"start":5359.082,"end":5375.019,"text":"下一個這個可能我們還在努力這個加商當中媒體都透露出來說你要找歐盟了你還這麼含蓄你就不能跟我本席透露一下跟委員會透露一下嗎這個我想我們在努力當中是是是"},{"start":5378.462,"end":5397.558,"text":"不要這麼含蓄部長已經提醒好幾遍了有就說我是覺得你這個通報的準則來說這個台版的肥咖條款不是找到肥咖而是找到壞咖這個要把它找出來保證功能性增加最近部長有跑出去演講"},{"start":5399.64,"end":5427.634,"text":"演講有提到那個促餐的部分你說促餐的部分國內今年度會增加2000億那也標示了有五大的這個公共設施的商業模式出來那其中連政府吞輸都搬出來了這個我覺得這個實在沒有什麼太多的討論的意義自償性我是覺得不知道從哪邊來那農業設施的能力我知道政府部門的預算已經投入非常多本身要就教於你的是說"},{"start":5429.185,"end":5452.241,"text":"難道國家已經投入這麼多農業設施的能源你還有標的還有可能有空間來進行那個BOT嗎你們到底有沒有對照過我現在看到的一般BOT是補預算之不足我們才需要把這個項目之補上去既然國家預算已經投入這麼多了你還有剩餘的空間來做這部分的一個補位嗎這是第一啦"},{"start":5452.861,"end":5470.388,"text":"第一我覺得五大項目我懷疑的地方是在這個你到底有沒有跟國家預算裡頭對照過有沒有對照過第二就我的理解的部分現在國家預算裡頭最缺的就是軌道建設的部分反而軌道建設之後就沒有過去的BOT的部分你們只要舉凡到交通了就是停車場"},{"start":5471.621,"end":5490.523,"text":"就是停車場還是停車場全部都是停車場的投資就從來沒有真正的所謂大家期待的軌道運輸的一個投資而且是停車場還是在車站附近的停車場那都是罵的罵罵罵的而且不是一般民眾所需求的就很奇怪部長要回答一下本席"},{"start":5491.465,"end":5513.859,"text":"委員您提到有關促餐2.0的部分除了公務預算的編列之外我們希望其他的重要的一個設施也能夠用促餐來做部長有些是太多有些是不足我們重點是要彌補不足吧對沒有錯不是為了做而做"},{"start":5514.819,"end":5542.51,"text":"主辦機關的一個動能很重要如果主辦機關他要採取促參我們絕對是財政部是一定會去做協助跟告訴他們什麼做對那當然是的我們知道認為說哪一些是很重要的基礎建設以及最需要的國家的建設那您提到我們有說冷鏈不重要但是你有沒有通盤檢討過到底國家投入的冷鏈的普及度到哪裡是"},{"start":5543.55,"end":5565.957,"text":"那這裡面對這裡面很重要是提到是新設的一些今這次2.0裡面增加的一些項目那您提到的一個軌道建設軌道建設依促參來說是可以做依照促參法可以做但是它的投資金額很高那所以在促參法這個部分我們其實今年也修正後也增加了有償提供那個公共服務的機制這個目的就是讓"},{"start":5568.078,"end":5576.805,"text":"本席最後問你一個問題啊5月17號的時候我就就教於你最近你們消息放出來有關於這個入境旅客攜帶行李免稅額度你們在討論所以到底是多少兩萬三萬四萬聽說三萬跟四萬之間好像在報名牌"},{"start":5597.822,"end":5612.91,"text":"沒有,這個部分一定是會比兩萬多啦那這個部分我們也參考到國際的一些案例還有另外也請相關的機關再表示意見你有沒有參考本席的建議從78年全年物價指數那時候60.99到現在111年現在已經102.95那加成起來的話算起來是33760有沒有可能用一個比較公式化的方式組長來發揮一下"},{"start":5622.414,"end":5649.765,"text":"是 報告委員 我們的確有參考委員的建議啦用這個物價指數 從78年到現在的一個飆漲當然我們會參考其他國際的一些做法 會綜合一些考量啦對 你們參考 我看你列舉了日本或那個新加坡 韓國都是低的啊你要列舉高的啊沒有 日本現在是全世界最高對啊 日本是相對高的啊 其他兩個都低的啊所以三萬四算是合理的是不是對好 謝謝你好 謝謝"},{"start":5651.785,"end":5654.447,"text":"臺銀董事長總經理臺銀董事長總經理然後土銀的董事長總經理兆豐金控董事長總經理"},{"start":5680.939,"end":5704.378,"text":"趙峰銀,總經理台灣銀行的總經理因為身體不太舒服沒關係,今天有出席的還有第一金控的董事長總經理第一銀行的總經理華南金控董事長總經理華南銀行總經理合作金庫董事長總經理合營的董事長總經理張營董事長總經理"},{"start":5713.442,"end":5736.452,"text":"總經理不好意思只有第一題要請教大家而已所以第一題完之後大家就可以入座第一個我要請問我們看到有用大內宣的情形我要請問一下大家有收到張瑩的這封函的請舉手知道這件事情的請舉手"},{"start":5738.476,"end":5762.927,"text":"沒有人?好那張瑩董事長這封函是不是張瑩發的?張瑩有沒有發給這個各個公股銀行就是要求他們要這個一起來共襄盛舉然後要這個要有這個脫波的這個費用然後這個各家銀行出資一千萬然後金控是兩千萬有這樣訊息的請舉手沒有沒有這樣訊息的請舉手"},{"start":5769.124,"end":5792.232,"text":"好,那個是哪一位舉手,沒有這樣的訊息的,是不是後面的,哪一位?哪個銀行,請說一下,好吧?啊?第一金控沒有這樣的情形,然後其他的不舉手是什麼意思?就是有也不舉手,沒有也不舉手,你知道我在這個學校任教EMBA呢,就是如果"},{"start":5793.55,"end":5800.74,"text":"回答問問題不回答的話就是有公積金出來你們這個有也不是沒有也不是這個態度是什麼意思"},{"start":5803.603,"end":5830.115,"text":"來請回答一下那個張瑩你有沒有要求不是不是我跟委員報告一下其實這個就是所有的這些所謂對我們一些公股的一些績效的一些呈現我們平常其實也會拍攝一些廣告啊短片金額是不是像你所要求的你的意思是說這個不是第一次你每一年都會要求各個公股銀行然後要來做這個拍攝的廣告每一年都有的"},{"start":5833.116,"end":5850.883,"text":"每一年都有嗎?你報告要針對我的問題嗎?我沒有問你今年,你每一年都有嗎?我每一年都會有拍攝一些形象的廣告你每一年都會邀請八大行庫要脫波?不會,只有今年邀請八大行庫脫波?"},{"start":5851.903,"end":5852.223,"text":"財政部部長"},{"start":5882.764,"end":5905.32,"text":"有沒有給這個函或收到類似這樣子怎麼樣子有效宣傳提升公股行庫企業形象這個函張瑩有沒有發或者你們現在上台的各個公股銀行金控你們有沒有收到這樣的函或者是你們有沒有做類似這樣的一個事情有的我再給你一次機會有的請舉手"},{"start":5907.169,"end":5933.789,"text":"等一下在後面的各位董事長總經理有知道這件事情的請舉手不知道的請舉手這什麼狀況啊主席我先暫停一下這個他們可以這個不回答嗎有也沒有舉手沒有也不舉手那是什麼意思呢是上台當布警嗎還是是什麼意思呢"},{"start":5935.68,"end":5961.676,"text":"你們不是憲法有備詢的義務嗎?部長 這個怎麼是 李委員問的 有舉手 沒有舉手 兩個都沒有還是你們規定他們通通都不可以回答沒有 沒有規定不是 你有收到這個函件或者是你知道這件事情的舉手啊?"},{"start":5962.847,"end":5963.307,"text":"委員問的問題我們從來都是如實回答"},{"start":5991.297,"end":6018.897,"text":"好,如實回答,但你的八大公股行庫的,他們不回答啊,剛剛只有一個,那個第一銀行的請回,因為你已經回答了,第一銀行的請回,剛才第一銀行的請回,就是說,你知道,就你所知沒有這樣的情形請回,其他的這個八大行庫的這個董事長總經理,再給你一次機會,你知道這樣的事情的請舉手。好,現在巡查開始。請舉手,知道的請舉手。"},{"start":6021.092,"end":6022.573,"text":"不知道的請舉手好 暫停休息五分鐘厲害了現在我們的國會等同虛設啊厲害了還是部長你既然找了這些董事長總經理他們什麼都不知道也拒絕按照憲法的義務履行是不是全部換掉啊"},{"start":6050.225,"end":6069.825,"text":"我想財政部也不是說全部換掉就可以換掉跟委員報告為什麼呢因為我們需要養這麼多人你要開始還是沒有辦法你可以停五分鐘我沒問題我只是提醒他們憲法還有備詢的義務休息五分鐘我要離開主席台了好休息五分鐘"},{"start":6130.033,"end":6130.053,"text":"啊"},{"start":6448.238,"end":6471.503,"text":"我要跟財委會報告立法委員代表人民行使對行政單位的監督立法委員問的問題各位官員必須得回答必須得回答至於你要怎麼回答那要負法律責任"},{"start":6473.08,"end":6473.2,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":6496.445,"end":6508.212,"text":"我們再來一次各位董事長、總經理知道這件事情也就是說如何有效宣傳公股行庫企業形象這個張瑩發起的請舉手都知道有這件事情所以也配合辦理是不是配合辦理的舉手"},{"start":6520.418,"end":6521.599,"text":"總預算額度的部分在八大行庫配合之下總預算的額度是多少?"},{"start":6541.109,"end":6550.211,"text":"這個是不是的確就是銀行的部分是每一家一千萬然後金控是兩千萬金控的部分拜託確認一下是兩千萬左右的舉手然後不知道金額的舉手好那你們不知道金額你們是授權什麼部門去辦理來我們拜託那個那個趙峰金控董事長來先來講一下代表講一下"},{"start":6566.768,"end":6586.935,"text":"謝謝李委員事情確實是知道當然只要回答我的問題就好了當然多少金額我不知道你不知道然後就授權授權他們要去做要配合那你是配合張瑩就張瑩發起之後不是配合張瑩她也沒有跟我說張瑩但是就是有這樣的事情要做宣傳因為我們做清安貸款是"},{"start":6587.895,"end":6600.803,"text":"那我現在要請問,因為你們拖延的關係把我的時間用掉了,那我要請問一下,你可以在今天的會後把你們派何辦理的金額出來給本席嗎?"},{"start":6601.65,"end":6627.328,"text":"我的了解是還沒有但是對我說要做這件事情但是沒有金額好像連發包都沒有沒有我現在沒有跟你講發包你這是拖播啊廣告拖不要閃不要閃這是壞習慣好不好你剛剛已經閃了我現在講說不要閃你今天在會後告訴我你內部的查證沒關係今天不要今天也可以我們就說禮拜三下班前可以嗎"},{"start":6628.249,"end":6642.975,"text":"禮拜三下班前查了之後把你們各個銀行你們要辦理配合廣告脫波的金額各個銀行麻煩回覆給我好不好我只就我的兆豐了好不好你只就兆豐我說各個銀行可以齁部長可以嗎那如果他們還不知道的話我建議就是換啦"},{"start":6649.898,"end":6671.527,"text":"這個董事長總經理就換掉就是了好第二個問題各位請回謝謝感恩不盡總算在主席財事之後有把人民放在眼裡沒有拒絕行使拒絕履行你憲法上面備詢的義務感激不盡我第二個問題要請教就是說特別預算呢變成了財政紀律的破口啊部長"},{"start":6672.347,"end":6678.694,"text":"我們看到這個在特別預算的時候你說這個特別預算並沒有是財政機率破口我舉個例給部長部長你記得我當時在詢問你的時候本來這個問題其實應該問主計長但主計長就甩鍋他甩到你身上你記不記得我們在302的時候他甩鍋甩你身上那我只好問你"},{"start":6693.311,"end":6696.493,"text":"財政特別預算的部分在這7年多編了13個特別預算,裡面就算是還稅餘名的部分都還要編給台電500億,這個是事實吧?對不對?部長?是的是的,條例有三條。那我們再看一下為什麼我說"},{"start":6712.145,"end":6712.465,"text":"財政部莊部長翠雲"},{"start":6732.705,"end":6761.191,"text":"特別預算它也要分年編列的對沒有錯那不是我問的我說如果你年度預算的東西你把它塞到特別預算裡面就不對嘛對不對是不是還是你不知道我是覺得要看那個沒有我現在不用看我現在就講說年度預算是年度預算嘛特別預算是特別預算嘛總預算是總預算特別預算是特別預算總預算是每一年都編列的對你把它塞到特別預算裡面來是對還是不對"},{"start":6762.551,"end":6779.372,"text":"我問了第三次了特別預算有特別預算的條例沒錯我就在講了是第四次詢問把總預算的內項目塞到特別預算是可以還是不行這個我想還是要看那個預算法然後主計總處那些我現在講說按照預算法的規定"},{"start":6781.274,"end":6783.176,"text":"現在我們的行政官員也好或者是我們這個相關的這個公股銀行也好顯然"},{"start":6800.892,"end":6813.059,"text":"是沒把人民沒把憲法沒把法律當回事所以我現在問的就是說如果你可以編你應該編在總預算裡面我們講年度預算嘛你硬要把它編到特別預算那特別預算就成了巧門嘛那特別預算成了巧門之後它當然是財政紀律的破口啊你算這個是不能夠光純的去你違法就是違法嘛"},{"start":6828.027,"end":6853.046,"text":"另外我一個跟部長報告的一點就是說在一般的民間有訊息像我剛剛問的那個問題的訊息你們剛剛是拒絕回答在主席財事之前你們是拒絕回答的一般的民間企業當有訊息出來的時候你要釐清沒這回事情你是在你的公告的訊息上面說沒這回事情但你不敢為什麼你不敢就是因為有"},{"start":6853.706,"end":6858.249,"text":"委員我們有說明有說明是沒有說明啊這個問題需要浪費我們這麼多的時間嗎好第三個呢其實我很想問的是財政部又被冒名了嘛對不對現在詐騙猖狂我們看到國家這個打詐打詐國家隊是完全沒有任何的功能他的唯一的功能在哪裡唯一的功能在編預算而已除了編預算之外他沒有任何功能"},{"start":6881.342,"end":6883.765,"text":"所以稅務的詐騙變成常態我想請問部長您除了在您的臉書上面講說你要看到這個有gov.tw的它才是真的其他是假的我要請問就是說為什麼"},{"start":6899.198,"end":6901.32,"text":"財政部需要收集民間資料"},{"start":6918.254,"end":6918.935,"text":"關於各自外流的情況"},{"start":6944.514,"end":6950.876,"text":"你像看公司行號的統一編號你現在Google打上去的時候你只要打公司行號或者打統編它全部的資料都出來你的檢疫密碼設定是這樣子你其實是等同要把全部其他私人企業的訊息讓全部都公開以這樣的一個情況來講你設定的部分你對於各支你有任何的尊重嗎這就是我講說今天的我們的行政單位"},{"start":6973.784,"end":6996.721,"text":"所有的東西完全不在乎老百姓的一個權益你自己設計的東西為了你的行政效率方便但問題你完全不在乎老百姓的權益你另外的講說登記密碼的提示統一編號統一編號你現在公開的訊息上面就可以找到了那我請教你等到裡面的資料被篡改的時候你要誰負責啊"},{"start":6997.842,"end":7008.288,"text":"民間要負責啊,他實在有夠衰欸他什麼事情都沒做,然後就為了你們行政官員的方便然後民間就要承受所有的一個責任,這樣對嗎?部長,這樣對嗎?跟委員報告,您剛剛提的這個營業人的資料,他是公開資料"},{"start":7014.451,"end":7017.094,"text":"但是你的密碼你在設定密碼的時候你要的這些的資料是非常非常容易的你現在根本不要講說多厲害的駭客"},{"start":7031.232,"end":7045.229,"text":"一般的人他就可以進去啊我知道委員您提的就是說落密碼的部分我們已經強化了一定要求他加強這個密碼而且對原來給他的密碼已經更改了我最後一句話你還要注意另外一件事情因為有很多公司行號是透過會計師對不對會計師他很可能是他習慣的一個密碼"},{"start":7050.836,"end":7069.123,"text":"所以所有人通通都是一樣對現在已經不可以了所以他只要查出來是哪個會計師他所有的資料一樣出去啊不是這樣子嗎現在不可以了原來是這樣子因為原來計帳室也好會計師也好他為了減變就用了這個弱密碼現在都要去做變更了而且定期要變更這個部分我們會加強的好再拜託謝謝委員提示"},{"start":7074.264,"end":7081.409,"text":"跟委員會報告,待會兒鍾嘉斌委員巡拿完以後,我們就休息10分鐘,現在請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":7091.972,"end":7109.066,"text":"主席．在場的委員先進．列席的政府機關事務長．官員．會長．工作夥伴．媒體記者女士先生有請財政部莊部長．那另外請關務署的彭署長．國庫署的蕭署長．以及財政資訊中心的張主任．聽到問題的時候就自動上來施惠詢"},{"start":7112.472,"end":7130.611,"text":"委員好部長好部長考你一個國文什麼叫做備詢備詢是不是我問你答叫做備詢對啊那你回答詢問你是用嘴巴講還是用字體語言告訴我還是打手語告訴我當然是用嘴巴講嘴巴講在本委員會在國會的備詢要對著麥克風講才算數對不對"},{"start":7134.471,"end":7145.426,"text":"是不是?我沒有記錄嘛那請問一下,如果問你yes or no的問題,要你蹲下表示是,要你站著表示不是,你會照做嗎?"},{"start":7146.386,"end":7164.978,"text":"我想我會對著跟委員用明確的表示就是說對著麥克風講對不對今天剛剛表現的叫大家舉手那叫表決今天列席的官員不是本委員的委員沒有表決的權利你們是來備詢的不是來舉手表決的有問題直接對著麥克風講會不會"},{"start":7167.244,"end":7173.726,"text":"對著麥克風講這裡不是小學堂這裡是國會殿堂如果有委員要把自己當作幼兒園的教師那是他的事情請你不要表現出像幼兒園的小朋友一樣好不好"},{"start":7197.298,"end":7197.418,"text":"入境免稅額"},{"start":7215.127,"end":7220.775,"text":"18年到現在 34年了 物價調了多少當然 物價成長1.7倍 要不要調 會調調1.7倍可以嗎 1.7倍啊 我們現在數字還在算 給大家一個承諾"},{"start":7232.509,"end":7233.77,"text":"社會怎麼疑慮?會不會衝擊我們台灣年輕人的就業?"},{"start":7251.833,"end":7269.347,"text":"會不會我想這個來台就業這個勞動部應該會回去思考吧好我來告訴你除了怕金正強公出來但有任務啊中國學生到外國的就學就業有特殊任務有沒有聽過我告訴你啦往下看中國學生到我國外啊間諜活動看到媒體報導美國"},{"start":7271.46,"end":7281.332,"text":"他計畫加入陸軍,獲得快速的共鳴身份,然後進入這些情報敏感單位法國中國學生因為重置間諜活動被遣返德國因為中國學生參與間諜活動,他認為有風險你有沒有看過這個報告?"},{"start":7286.038,"end":7313.566,"text":"在媒體上有看到往下看那麼陸生來台中生來台就學的領域很特別在2019年之前他們來台灣會念什麼?商業跟管理還有藝術還有工程你知道嗎?今年陸生最夢的領域是什麼?軟體應用及管理開發管理行政電子電機為什麼?有沒有覺得他們的領域的變化?我來告訴你什麼原因來"},{"start":7315.253,"end":7332.639,"text":"以美國的軍事機密為例要竊取資訊不需要很核心只要一個一等兵他接觸到網路系統就可以接觸機密就可以洩密還有一個中國華裔的美國的海軍現役士兵因為母親鼓勵他洩密可以跟中國求關這個新聞對你有什麼啟發"},{"start":7337.39,"end":7362.628,"text":"我覺得這個來幹嘛就幹嘛不要做一些不應該做的事沒有錯不能從事與入境目的不合的行為往下看不只如此現在的財經詐騙層層不從啊網站都設在外國啊有收到什麼臺北國家稅務局的還稱呼你叫做尊敬的客戶請問主任你認為這些網站是來自哪裡因為我們的資料主要都是來自香港香港財資中心揪出了205個偽造"},{"start":7366.357,"end":7374.243,"text":"公股行庫有沒有完善建立確實內部集合?內積內控有沒有?有那不是公股行庫的上海銀行1.4萬個1萬4千個各自外洩是什麼原因?沒有建立也沒有確實執行找這客戶資料外洩是不是這樣?有沒有懲處?"},{"start":7396.773,"end":7402.439,"text":"公股行庫有沒有統整出這些資訊安全的敏感職務加強資安及背景審查以降資安教育有沒有做"},{"start":7416.245,"end":7442.028,"text":"有沒有定位什麼叫敏感職務?有沒有?有沒有定位什麼叫敏感職務?沒有啊!如果沒有定位敏感職務,你如何加強資安的訓練跟教育呢?所以呢,請注意,你們如果要重視資安,要對銀行端"},{"start":7443.052,"end":7446.419,"text":"敏感植物先定位,哪些植物有可能接觸到機密,可以嗎?"},{"start":7448.216,"end":7474.013,"text":"我們可以了解參考一下這個叫做加強關鍵基礎保護設施的法案這定出來的對不對在今年的5月30號通過的關鍵基礎設施的法律修正案其中包括政交法銀行法期貨交易法都有明白說什麼核心設備及核心資訊之通的系統對不對如果竊取破壞違反怎樣要罰一年以上七年以下有什麼重不重"},{"start":7474.983,"end":7501.297,"text":"重對不對但是如果你們沒有把這些敏感之物定位清楚你根本不曉得核心的設備在哪裡什麼人會接觸到是不是這樣子對核心的設備核心的資訊系統一定要先把它羅列出來那我們才知道是關鍵基礎設施的重要性知道了齁好那最後呢我來問你齁除了應起設備之外呢人員的審查更重要你們呢有沒有對這些接觸這些關鍵核心知名設備"},{"start":7502.638,"end":7517.007,"text":"還有這些業務的人有沒有進行審查這個部分因為有一些有保密責任的話一定要要求他們要簽署保密的協定要簽署保密協定我先問一個保密協定這是行政院的願函他說111年盤點來自大陸地區的廠牌的資訊設備還有委外營運的公共場所的契約評估結果要說明什麼要說明辦理事項轉資格公共機關我們銀行都有沒有收到"},{"start":7532.097,"end":7557.883,"text":"這個部分我們全部完成清查跟盤點有沒有要求廠商在執行你們的執行案的時候成員不得有中級入籍的人士有沒有?有,有要求有沒有說不可以提供中國製的自通設備?也有要求有沒有做到?有啊,都有做到設備你們有做到嗎?都做你們外包的廠商的成員的身份有做控管了嗎?有控管,對,我們會對資安人員也會做真性調查好,那我來告訴你"},{"start":7559.013,"end":7560.615,"text":"我們沒有外籍人士啊"},{"start":7574.548,"end":7597.378,"text":"公股行庫沒有人有台灣以外的國籍你確定嗎這個問題很敏感喔中華民國國籍你們的工作人員當中除了高階的主管我們有要求有雙重國籍的要求之外你能確定公股行庫的人沒有台灣以外的國籍嗎當然我們沒有對全體同仁去做過清查你們有什麼你們延攬外籍優秀的人才有沒有"},{"start":7598.408,"end":7609.189,"text":"這個部分有過對 你們延南他是外籍人才的時候有沒有去了解他是哪個國籍的背景他是來自香港的你確定他有沒有中國的背景"},{"start":7610.611,"end":7635.92,"text":"這個部分齁對香港的不是中國人喔來自香港香港國際人士很多啊從香港的銀行被你們延攬來到台灣公股行庫的有沒有目前沒有啊你們目前公股行庫完全沒有延攬從香港來的外籍人士完全沒有完全沒有確定喔要不要我一個一個請教我不會叫你們蹲或跪或者舉手叫你們一個一個對在麥克風講有沒有"},{"start":7636.789,"end":7641.95,"text":"今天我們在談資安今天我們在談金融的資安今天我們在談公股行庫的金融資安首先第一步你們要把機敏的職務列出來可以嗎?"},{"start":7665.892,"end":7671.27,"text":"我們去查一下雞米食物去分類好 第二個從事這些職務的委員要不要加強訓練"},{"start":7673.119,"end":7700.459,"text":"當然應該要訓練要教育訓練對不對最後哪些人擔任這個職務你們公股行庫跟你所屬的證券公司或保險公司或者執行的廠商團隊當中在有非本國籍或是他同時擁有其他國籍的人士以及資通訊的產品都要加強資安以及背景審查可以做到嗎我想這部分我們會後再來做研議什麼時候可以結束後調查完畢後給本委員會一個說明"},{"start":7701.61,"end":7721.292,"text":"一個月內請你們加上調查尤其第二項你們要先盤點定位哪些是機敏的植物第二個這些機敏的都不見得是核心不見得只有後台的鑰匙它可能只是一個基層的能源就像一個一等兵一樣這些植物只要被列為機敏的你們要進行在職能源的在職教育訓練"},{"start":7722.389,"end":7723.349,"text":"請對著麥克風講,不要舉手或蹲下"},{"start":7749.193,"end":7762.621,"text":"我跟蔡委員報告,主席有決定權。站在備詢台,他用舉手或不舉手也是一種表達。"},{"start":7778.452,"end":7778.472,"text":"展開會議"},{"start":8418.587,"end":8422.111,"text":"好 我們繼續開始開會 接著請高嘉瑜委員謝謝主席 請財政部部長還有八家公股行庫的董事長好 各位請出列"},{"start":8438.072,"end":8461.087,"text":"委員好部長好首先有第一個問題就是之前我們也有問過公股行庫在存庫死亡後辦理定存的轉存情形那有四家公股行庫是跟民營一樣會依約自動轉期但是有四家是不轉期改活存其中包括台銀、土銀、合庫跟華銀那我們認為說這四家的這個存庫的權益明顯受到影響"},{"start":8464.889,"end":8486.445,"text":"所以我們要求金管會能夠競速的處理也要求銀行公會還有財政部能夠先來做那就這個部分到底我們在等什麼為什麼其他的行庫都可以站在存戶的立場一約自動轉期唯獨這四家行庫它不能轉期而改活期呢這部分能不能跟其他行庫一樣來做呢"},{"start":8488.004,"end":8489.266,"text":"可不可以回覆一下臺銀、土銀、和庫跟華銀?"},{"start":8497.742,"end":8519.478,"text":"我想這沒有違反任何法律的問題啦對 但是對於存戶的權益受到影響明顯在其他的民營的行庫還有我們其他四家公國行庫都會站在存戶的立場協助他們但是只有這四家行庫雖然沒有違反法令但是問題是這四家的這個存戶明顯在權益上是矮人一截的"},{"start":8519.878,"end":8531.113,"text":"那如果讓這些存戶知道是不是會去轉存到其他的公股行庫或民營行庫那對這四家存戶的利益或權益其實也受到影響所以我們認為應該要站在存戶的立場上能夠一視同仁的處理這個對於銀行來講有什麼困難嗎"},{"start":8537.501,"end":8550.208,"text":"我想這個部分我們可以來研議因為事實上過去在高利率的時候也發生過這個定存但是現在全台灣就只剩你們四家臺銀、土銀、核酷跟華銀這個我說明一下可以嗎因為這個過去也有這個如果"},{"start":8558.786,"end":8585.701,"text":"他變成繼續做電存後來如果中途做什麼處理的時候就有利息打折甚至不支付利息的問題所以這要全盤考量不只是為銀行是站在存戶他的立場那至少可以讓存戶有一個選擇的權利或者是怎麼樣我不知道但是目前現在全戶應該是以全戶的利益為優先的考量那當然我贊成但是這裡面涉及到因為前提是死亡後"},{"start":8586.661,"end":8594.047,"text":"他如何選擇這是一個問題所以這個部分我們希望說能夠有一致性的規範來處理那所以這個最快到底什麼時候因為我們已經問了一個多月了目前你們有討論過內部上對這個有沒有一致的共識呢我想這一個我們會來討論所以大概還要多久的時間因為這裡涉及到整體法尊種種甚至裡面系統給我們一個月好嗎"},{"start":8612.381,"end":8617.106,"text":"等下再一個月這已經夠多月了阿全台灣就只有你們四家捏"},{"start":8618.186,"end":8621.789,"text":"另外同樣是公股行庫但是生育津貼的福利差一大截我們接到這個員工的投訴同樣都是公股行庫但是呢華南銀行他生一胎可以補助10萬第二胎是20萬"},{"start":8646.689,"end":8667.106,"text":"異營是產價最多有58天產檢價、賠產檢價都有8天但是一胎是10萬、第二胎是15萬那依序下來最糟糕的就是台營跟土營喔台營跟土營不僅沒有補助而且只有留職停薪、復職率百分百相較其他的行庫來講真的是落差非常的大"},{"start":8667.546,"end":8681.442,"text":"那台企銀是第一胎只有五千第二胎一萬那為什麼其他的行庫可以補助到最高十萬甚至八萬有的變成三萬是張銀那越來越差為什麼有這樣子的落差呢這個部長可以跟我們說明一下"},{"start":8682.623,"end":8702.246,"text":"先跟委員報告對於飯工股的部分那是公司的治理那他們怎麼樣去訂定這個相關的補助我想這是公司內部的一個規則那至於國營行庫部分臺營跟土營這個部分因為我們也知道委員很關心這件事情我們也請因為涉及到那個薪資的問題"},{"start":8703.627,"end":8707.07,"text":"韓巡行政院人事行政總署可不可以也像這樣犯公股一樣給予我們生育的一個補助答覆的是第一個是單一興奉所以在興奉裡面不能有這一個項目但是可以從職工福利金裡面去辦理"},{"start":8723.843,"end":8731.226,"text":"也就是職工福利金可以因為職工福利金是從他們的營業的一個獲益裡面去抽去提撥一個所以可以在這裡面辦理那這裡面的職工福利由他們委員會來做這個決定我想這個部分財政部基本上是支持我們各公股行庫對於員工的生育的部分都給予補助因為這件事情已經討論很久了那之前也有曾經"},{"start":8747.711,"end":8767.299,"text":"承諾說要提供一台10萬元的育兒津貼但後來一直都卡在財政部還有人事行政總署那既然現在已經有可以從職工福利金等等去做移撥請問最快什麼時候可以讓員工有這樣子的好消息我們當然希望盡快那當然要看財銀跟土銀在職工福利金裡面去做討論"},{"start":8768.86,"end":8773.282,"text":"我想這個要讓台銀跟劉銀在台銀是不是董事長 呂董事長因為這個我想我也贊成有這一些但是誠如剛剛部長所說我們是單一信奉心知明定不含在裡面但是如果用職工福利金我們也內部討論過那這個公會會表達說這是大家的錢所以這裡面目前還沒有答案如果有答案我們一定很樂意"},{"start":8795.271,"end":8812.213,"text":"政府鼓勵生育、少子化的問題等等我們公股銀行真的要帶頭作棋結果你看我們公股銀行的福利是完全沒有完全沒有,國銀行庫更是真的是只有柳子亭、新聯課補助都沒有台積銀也只有五千、彰銀只有三萬"},{"start":8813.154,"end":8834.241,"text":"那矮人一截說實話對於我們同樣是公股銀行的員工來講那個落差相對剝奪感真的很大所以這些理由跟藉口我想對於這些銀行的員工來講我覺得也聽不下去所以我覺得若有誠意競速的協助財政部跟人事行政總處應該要站在鼓勵生育的立場能夠盡量的能夠撥補這樣子的經費那也討論非常久之前也曾經承諾過員工10萬塊一胎"},{"start":8842.403,"end":8862.76,"text":"只有到現在還說還在研議討論那我覺得這樣子的一個誠意真的是大打折扣耶方式上是我們絕對是支持對鼓勵員工來生育養育子女但是呢因為涉及到這個信奉以及職工福利金的運用那我想這個職工福利金運用他們有一個委員會可以去做討論"},{"start":8864.121,"end":8864.702,"text":"這部分是不是也一個月的時間"},{"start":8881.084,"end":8881.544,"text":"員工福利委員會加速討論"},{"start":8902.95,"end":8926.73,"text":"那另外今天討論這個資安的議題我們也同樣要來問就是說公股行庫目前定期所謂的資安查核到底有多少家在做都有在做總共查核多少家查核這個是第一個公股行庫這個部分的資安的查核這個是金管會的是中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":8928.74,"end":8932.308,"text":"你們現在就是要強化財稅機關跟公股行庫的資安防護嘛那你們這些財稅機關公股行庫總共有幾家"},{"start":8938.857,"end":8939.478,"text":"財政部所屬的機關"},{"start":8968.237,"end":8968.777,"text":"資安平台的漏洞"},{"start":8985.265,"end":9010.322,"text":"包括財資中心自己的財政部發票平台就爆出資安漏洞七成的企業沿用預設的密碼這個是被白茂駭客在今年五月所揭露出來的資安缺失那如果你說五年做三次或是五年做一次為什麼自己財資中心這麼大的漏洞自己都完全不知道那所謂的資安積合到底在積合什麼有沒有積合到自己"},{"start":9010.742,"end":9011.482,"text":"委員您提的這個弱密碼這個事情確實是我們這個部分已經做了"},{"start":9037.699,"end":9040.24,"text":"所以這個也是大家請說我們的資安集合有沒有落實然後包括我們的報稅資料也曾經外洩等等的狀況"},{"start":9056.164,"end":9065.769,"text":"所以大家對於財政部所謂的資安疑慮如何能夠進一步讓人民安心是有很多的質疑就這個部分今天的報告其實說明的還不夠清楚我們也希望財政部就這些問題能夠具體的能夠再跟我們做相關的檢討"},{"start":9073.874,"end":9095.567,"text":"所以到目前為止呢我們所看到除了告訴我們會定期的集合但是其他都是照本宣科那明顯的資安的問題沒有改善那我們也認為說財政部應該要跟相關的單位就現在大家對資安的要求非常的高的情況之下如何能夠確實的去做相關的這個資安漏洞的防堵是非常的重要"},{"start":9096.647,"end":9125.587,"text":"數發部來講數發部的量能也非常的有限對於我們所謂的政府機關的資安集合到底是誰要來做統籌誰要來負責還是最後大家各踢皮球這個是我們所擔心的那最後關於這個新清安的貸款因為很多人在質疑現在雖然傳出說三個月已經撥款了這個將近800多億然後有1.2萬首個族多少人在排隊但是被外界質疑的就是所謂的新清安"},{"start":9126.527,"end":9127.427,"text":"這部分部長是不是也可以說明一下"},{"start":9155.536,"end":9156.277,"text":"所以這個漏洞就是我剛剛所講的嗎?"},{"start":9178.894,"end":9205.626,"text":"年滿18歲就可以沒有限制最高年齡的上限第二個你所謂的首購只要名下沒有自有住宅就是所謂的首購不管他曾經買過或者是剛賣出或是等等只要名下現在沒有都算所以這個就變成說對於那些真正的首購族真正的年輕人來講有沒有更優惠的方案還是說這個所謂的新清安美其名是青年安心成家但其實這個青年其實就是一個"},{"start":9210.063,"end":9229.328,"text":"民意上的青年但是他是要一個沒有房子而且沒有其他的房貸才可以啊然後雖然我們像青安但是我覺得如果他需要自有的房屋來居住的話其實政府給予相關的一些協助跟補助我覺得是有必要讓這個沒有房子的人能夠買到他想要買的房子"},{"start":9229.708,"end":9245.471,"text":"對因為最近有一個這個副總統候選人他也是在教年輕人買房的訣竅就是買一間賣一間買一間賣一間房價一直在漲利用這樣的方式就可以去不斷的貸款不斷的買房那如果你這個心清安再加上這個副總統候選人這樣子的言論"},{"start":9246.132,"end":9263.146,"text":"是不是就是讓投機客成為一個投資的工具他不斷的鑽這個漏洞去買房去貸款然後去賣房子去炒高房價這個就是我們所擔心的啊類似這樣子的狀況會不會不斷的重複生態成為另外炒房投機客的工具如何來防堵"},{"start":9263.706,"end":9280.622,"text":"不要變成這些有心人利用炒房的工具而讓真正想要買房子沒有錢的年輕人他貸不到款買不到房子這個是我們最擔心質疑的你在這個政策裡面的這些漏洞大家都看到了但是你怎麼去防堵怎麼樣去防止投機客的炒房"},{"start":9281.503,"end":9285.926,"text":"委員,房屋是一個高價的資產,買進賣出買進賣出其實並不是這麼容易,然後還有稅的問題,其實短期交易在我們來說,房屋2.0的課稅是重稅的,所以不是這麼容易買進賣出買進賣出,另外我們新簽案貸款的人他必須沒有身上其他的貸款啊"},{"start":9301.235,"end":9302.175,"text":"各位請回謝謝部長代委員改書面質詢接著請林楚英委員"},{"start":9335.001,"end":9343.008,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請張翠雲莊部長還有我們財政資訊中心的張文希張主任兩位請"},{"start":9347.998,"end":9348.118,"text":"財政部委員"},{"start":9365.836,"end":9374.28,"text":"找了一些內部相關的這些原則財政部的資安的防護措施的話那麼成立資安見檢跟數位鑑定團隊會每年來定期來辦理這個相關的財稅的弱點掃描跟滲透測試還有資安見證那麼我們知道如果說財政部是希望逐年來做一個審定的話"},{"start":9391.127,"end":9406.965,"text":"但是如果根據財資中心的資通安全集合的原則的話是另外一個部分等於財政部希望是每年定期但是在財政部的這個部分有關於資安的部分就是委由財資中心來處理對嗎部長"},{"start":9409.215,"end":9435.885,"text":"是是但是我們基本上還是有一些審定的原則包括比如說三年內如果你都沒有被進行過資通安全的集合的那這是第一個可能容易被抽到那第二個就是兩年內如果你有發生一些資安案件的那你可能要再進行再來就是沒有完成資安責任等級的辦理事項的就會需要所以原則上會變成是三年才集合一次嗎"},{"start":9438.546,"end":9462.603,"text":"張主任報委員主要是因為那個資安健檢的人力跟時程就是沒有辦法每年每個機關都完成健檢所以我們就按照這個列選的原則去挑選最重要的先做比如說近兩年有發生資安事件就會優先那如果這幾年都表現良好那我們可能採取書面的審查"},{"start":9463.163,"end":9490.411,"text":"所以在人力的部分現在整體來做資通安全集合的人力一共是多少然後他們的量能比如說以一年來說的話大概能夠完成多少的這麼多的比如說包括以公股行庫啦或者是我們的這些各個區的這個所謂稅務單位啦就以你們現有的人力跟你一年能夠處理的量能大概是多少"},{"start":9491.591,"end":9509.76,"text":"這跟委員報告,因為我們現有正式的資安人員是4位只有4位對,那其他的都是兼職的職員大概是21位左右所以這樣加起來就是25位然後你們一年的量能可以查多少的單位或是多少的部門"},{"start":9510.991,"end":9540.391,"text":"若點掃描這部分剛才大概是22個機關若點掃描那見證是在集合前我們前一個禮拜會做見證的作業那通常一次見證大概要花一個禮拜那因為他們這些兼職人員平常還有其他的行政業務所以目前他們安排的這個量能是很滿的所以我們除了財政部自己的見證團隊去見證之外另外我們在各機關都會都有委外的"},{"start":9547.477,"end":9559.549,"text":"財政部當然是希望每年要來做一個見證但是顯然的以這個現有的人力比如說就是專職4位然後兼職25位那麼要做到每年是不可能"},{"start":9559.989,"end":9583.456,"text":"最多就是說這三年內被抽一次然後或是你兩年內發生事情所以我這樣講吧一年以一年內我們本身財資中心能夠健檢或者是弱點掃描幾個單位最資安集合的部分健檢大概就是三到五個三到五個然後"},{"start":9584.625,"end":9600.627,"text":"若點掃描若點掃描幾乎就是都會全部做因為若點掃描有範圍那大概是總共是22個機關機關購包括這個公股的台圖書研究公司等等好"},{"start":9601.568,"end":9627.048,"text":"本席會這樣問是因為我們這個資安定期集合到底有沒有確實呢我特別製作了這個表那也是跟財經中心你們所做的資料就是說現在其實只有關務署跟土銀有達到定期集合的標準為什麼我抓這近五年是因為我們從108年之後我們開始專注於資安集合的這個部分然後除了"},{"start":9628.289,"end":9638.246,"text":"這個關務署是A等級之外然後土營是有機會在我們所定的標準3年以內有機會被做到一次之外其實包括像你看"},{"start":9639.332,"end":9656.806,"text":"高雄國稅局這五年來都沒有然後你自己財資中心等一下這個委員會問就是是不是財資中心集合別人那誰集合你們呢再來包括我們看比如說臺銀人壽啊臺銀的綜合證券啊臺銀的這個保金等等"},{"start":9657.907,"end":9674.099,"text":"那等於是說其實我們希望達到但是卻沒有辦法實質的做可能連三年都沒辦法五年內都會有人沒有被集合到那像這個部分的時候是因為人力不足還是認為說有其他的方式來做填補就夠了"},{"start":9675.513,"end":9691.742,"text":"我想我們目前填補的方式就是由委外的集合的部分那就是各機關他們比如說他會選那個英國標準協會或其他的這個集合機關來進行委外的集合來補充內部集合的不足"},{"start":9692.422,"end":9710.883,"text":"一方面是由外部的機關來集合的角度會比較不一樣那如果同一年會有兩組以上的集合的人員進駐的時候那對機關來講其實壓力也比較大那像高雄國稅局這個案例是比較特殊的因為第一方面他之前沒有"},{"start":9712.204,"end":9722.312,"text":"所以最近會補上嗎?因為過去都沒有這五年如果發生什麼事情的時候滲透都已成啊五年要部件滲透都會完成我列出這個表我只是來提醒就是說確實你們從一年已經退到變三年"},{"start":9739.005,"end":9766.345,"text":"三年之後又有一些單位是完全這五年來都沒有來進行所謂資安定期的集合問題很可能就在這樣的過程當中出現資安的危機那麼另外當然就是部長如果財資中心是負責來集合大家但是他們卻在五年內沒有被集合到那這個部分到底是歸誰呢本席去了解的時候發現是屬於速發部要來進行所謂更高層級的資安的合併那麼"},{"start":9767.606,"end":9788.057,"text":"如果是這樣的話財政部跟速發部跟資安中心在彼此財資中心它的集合的部分有跟上速發部的腳步嗎那麼速發部到底有沒有針對這些二級或是獨立機關的集合是兩年來一次那以本席所了解是這五年都沒有"},{"start":9788.877,"end":9804.076,"text":"那這個部分財資中心前一陣子還有這個所謂電子發票服務平台登錄系統就出現了一些危機所以這到底是沒有接合到還是沒有配合到因為這很有可能問題就出在這裡啊"},{"start":9805.257,"end":9829.698,"text":"報告委員就是財政中心的集合外部的集合是行政院會委書發部來集合我們目前從最近5年內有3次已經接受過3次集合那另外他除了你最近有接受過3次對107年111年還有109年都有接受過行政院的集合那結果呢"},{"start":9831.379,"end":9856.609,"text":"結果都還不錯,都有符合標準那電子發票那個部分因為它主要跟使用者的習慣有關係所以在這個集合的部分它沒有辦法透過系統直接判讀那這部分我們在未來的集合技術裡面會增加對這個使用者這些習慣的考核那來補充彌補"},{"start":9859.17,"end":9882.868,"text":"那除了外部集合我們自己內部也我們自己中興自己的同仁也會自己集然後每年會做自己集兩次那我們自己有資安科那會集合其他的像國稅跟地稅發票的一些組織一年至少集兩次那同時我們每年會請第三方的集合公司那像中興是以英國標準協會來幫我們在做整體的檢核好"},{"start":9887.992,"end":9916.115,"text":"因為集合的部分就是財資中心要來負責那麼你也說到了會有人力的部分的問題但是就像本席整理出來這個表我想要更明確的了解為什麼會有些單位他們完全沒有在五年內做到這個集合我希望你們給我一份報告重點其實我很希望的是資訊安全、資通安全這些部分是現在其實最要面臨的問題那麼不要變成是好像變成是作文比賽"},{"start":9916.775,"end":9917.396,"text":"接著請羅明財委員"},{"start":9941.787,"end":9942.968,"text":"很快就是12月了喔12月25號是什麼日子"},{"start":9960.27,"end":9976.823,"text":"自行限紀念日也是大家的聖誕節聖誕節是開心的時刻我覺得去年的時候前任的部長蘇部長曾經在這裡答應我說在去年的Christmas我特別還說這個祭祝聖誕節這個是歡樂的季節我特別還質詢了"},{"start":9983.448,"end":10009.063,"text":"蘇部長答應我兩件事一個就是要廢除印花稅另外一個就是要廢除娛樂稅相關至少要修正請問一年過得很快要過去了不曉得新任的莊部長對於前任的蘇部長的承諾有沒有買單有沒有繼續來執行廢除不合時宜的印花稅"},{"start":10010.64,"end":10031.931,"text":"跟委員報告硬花稅的部分在上個會期吧應該我們委員是召委的時候也召開過那硬花稅因為是也是地方稅而且金額也不小涉及到地方的財政所以各地方政府都反對要廢除硬花稅這個是這一部分那另外就是娛樂稅的部分那娛樂稅當然因為年代也久遠"},{"start":10033.191,"end":10048.316,"text":"根據社會經濟環境的一些轉變也許有一些項目可以值得討論或者稅率也值得討論所以在這個部分上一次也要求也指示或做成決議要財政部再邀請地方政府來做討論財政部也在今年的8月邀請了各地方政府來做討論那22縣市裡面除了台東縣以外其他各縣市都反對廢除娛樂稅但是項目也好還有稅率的最高限"},{"start":10060.619,"end":10072.708,"text":"以及相關的內容部分那地方政府都認為也可以做一些調整我想這個部分我們上次也做了一個說明是所以部長如果地方大家都贊成的話部長就會從善如流囉"},{"start":10074.528,"end":10080.51,"text":"贊成哪個?贊成這兩個稅都把它廢掉?沒有,他們都沒有贊成啊。對,邏輯上,如果地方都贊成的話,那是不是你就會來執行?地方如果要贊成的話,可能他們希望的是財政自主。他們也許,譬如說娛樂稅來說,金額其實不高,大概一年就是16億到17億之間,但是他們希望這是地方稅是財政自主。"},{"start":10099.497,"end":10100.098,"text":"是,如果他們要贊成的時候呢"},{"start":10119.299,"end":10145.352,"text":"你這樣在邏輯上應該要找到一個平衡點就以你的聰明才智你的智慧應該要對所有的事情要迎熱而解您的意思是說如果他們都贊成的話我的意思是說你不想推的都推給地方說大家不贊成"},{"start":10146.926,"end":10151.569,"text":"現在所有全國地方針對統籌分配稅款都是希望這個要增加多一點那部長是什麼時候來配合地方來全部營造他們的意識來推動呢"},{"start":10178.701,"end":10187.984,"text":"統籌分配稅款這個部分涉及到財化法的修正因為目前都是按照財化法的規定還有計算的公式來算出來的地方有人反對說統籌分配稅款要減少嗎"},{"start":10193.085,"end":10207.761,"text":"那當然他們都希望要增加嘛他們不會希望把這個部分減少嘛希望能夠增加那就對了 依你的邏輯當地方都說贊成要增加的時候那你就趕快增加那這個涉及到財化法的修正那財化法的修正涉及到要有共識"},{"start":10208.722,"end":10231.984,"text":"您也知道這個財務法修正涉及到每個地方政府都就自己有利的條件提出來那目前來說財政部也已經有擬定了六個一個原則那六個原則也就根據這個六個原則我們也分別在含詢地方政府的意見當中我們會會診這個地方政府的意見來找到共識點部長那一天會診十幾年了我們那邊開會不是第一天對"},{"start":10233.866,"end":10252.123,"text":"對,所以,如果是這樣的話,那換任何人都可以來當部長啦您知道這個共識是很難取得,沒有共識的話要修法也推動上會有它的障礙所以你要展現你的魄力跟魅力啊你怎麼樣來說服大家,你怎麼樣來站出來做對的事啊"},{"start":10252.503,"end":10252.523,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":10278.598,"end":10304.218,"text":"一年多前就聖誕節快樂的他就很愉快的答應本席的廢除印花稅的部分那你什麼時候做你不會在那邊講又說那明年聖誕節再說吧我不會這樣說啦那是印花稅的部分印花稅的部分還是跟委員報告因為是地方的財政還是要地方政府大家要有共識全世界還有哪個地方收印花稅"},{"start":10304.998,"end":10308.519,"text":"美國有收印花稅嗎?美國有沒有收印花稅?日本有沒有收"},{"start":10333.059,"end":10345.157,"text":"這個是不合時宜的嘛,你想,裡面的基深成本又高,所有的部長,包括前書部長,院長,他也說贊成要廢除,可是就是沒完成啊。"},{"start":10346.104,"end":10374.631,"text":"可是這樣是地方政府非常重要的財源這個可以說是都沒有往前進相當的可惜是對的就要堅持對不對是要努力去做好好不好另外一個請教一下國有財產署最近有很多地的問題那聽說要標大概總金額是100多億要提供種樹來減碳那不曉得內容是怎麼樣"},{"start":10378.666,"end":10401.925,"text":"我們目前大概先篩選出大概100公頃來試辦這100公頃的土地大概農作生產都有問題所以是用種樹的方式那給民間大概有20年以上那甚至未來能夠取得碳錢那合作的問題那請問這個100多公頃國家稅收可以增加多少"},{"start":10402.585,"end":10430.446,"text":"因為我們以前農業用地都是用這個所謂的農作的生產價格那我們這一次是用一些用公告公告地價的方式來收這不多啦因為這個可以去種樹的地方都比較偏遠那地價也都比較不高所以他的目的並不在於說收取多少國家的稅收而是能夠透過這樣一個機制來引進這個大家多種樹"},{"start":10431.947,"end":10455.024,"text":"那你要100公頃大概一年可以收多少?幾十萬而已,不到百萬那請問國有地一共有幾公頃?國有地,國產署現在監管的有22萬公頃假設20萬公頃都租出去,國庫的稅收可以增加多少?22萬全部都租出去,因為每個地方的地價不一樣沒關係,你剛剛舉最爛的就是十幾萬"},{"start":10456.219,"end":10472.026,"text":"跟委員報告不能這樣子算啦因為我22萬公頃裡面有一些是建築用地有一些是可以建築用地有一些是要做生態保育的大概也有一些像濕地啊這些等等是不可以做其他的活化處分的"},{"start":10472.746,"end":10495.737,"text":"那請你盤點一下,過去國有財產署的地非常多,閒置在那邊,殊為可惜,應該做最好的利用。是的,每一塊土地我們都會尋找最好的利用方式。好,謝謝。那另外部長再請教一下,對於我們所有的銀行的經營,年底又到了,你覺得在公股銀行裡面做比較好的是哪一家?"},{"start":10497.252,"end":10519.781,"text":"每一家都在他們的一個專業領域裡面都努力做最爛的是哪一家最爛的沒有最爛的沒有最爛的所以你都滿意他們的當然要努力可以做得更好當然應該就要做得更好我們看到公營的所有的試戰以及獲利的情況可以說是節節敗退"},{"start":10521.334,"end":10521.474,"text":"請合庫蘇總經理"},{"start":10562.372,"end":10586.107,"text":"蘇總以你的專業來說那你們現在對於這個美債的部分會不會加持我們會會手上還有多少的美債我們要回查一下目前因為它每個月在變動大概美債我不確定你會加持美債的原因是什麼"},{"start":10589.569,"end":10612.519,"text":"貴嘉是因為主要是我們財務部分析大概美國可能會降息對 這個很簡單啊那我們看到國內很多授權公司啊手上持有的美債大概超過20幾兆啊為什麼別人都在做公股行庫裡面卻對這個沒有任何的積極的動作"},{"start":10615.609,"end":10637.629,"text":"我記得裡面做的比較好大概是兆豐吧兆豐大概前幾年他們買的非常多大概賺了好幾百億然後裡面我們現場的一些董事長私底下跟我講跟操盤的人講他們都不理他"},{"start":10639.093,"end":10657.478,"text":"因為公股的行庫的管理誰也不怕誰因為他們心裡只有一個管理的就是部長所以講這個就是說裡面公司的治理以及專業的經營事實上是需要加強的"},{"start":10659.468,"end":10686.13,"text":"所以你看我們這個公股的模範生大概是趙鋒吧希望有空趙鋒應該要開開課幫這些董總多多來溝通灌輸一些新的理念好不好 部長可以這麼做嗎好 委員的 謝謝委員的指教好 謝謝好 謝謝 各位請回接著請曾明忠委員曾明忠 曾明忠委員不在我們請張綺路委員"},{"start":10696.357,"end":10696.577,"text":"財政部莊部長"},{"start":10713.837,"end":10737.187,"text":"那這個資安這個問題其實說實話我們黨團在去年的時候我們就已經開過這個記者會當時也就是希望說甚至應該這個包括你看現在很多的資訊從對岸的問題來這個攻擊我們當時也希望說金融也應該要有個所謂這個金融的汗光沿襲這個金融的兵推"},{"start":10738.087,"end":10744.906,"text":"那其實當時苔穎跟昭峰就被整個誠心攻擊過那現在是這樣講其實這件事根本不是"},{"start":10746.431,"end":10776.151,"text":"就是今天的新聞這個根本就是一個我們講的就是灰犀牛他本來就存在那裡而且始終都在我先請教部長一個問題雖然但今天有點可惜訴發部沒來我們訴發部我們唐部長一直說他要當這個資安的教練我不知道這個訴發部當教練這件事對我們財政部有沒有什麼或者公股行庫等等他有沒有把這教練這個做好啊現在到底有沒有告訴大家怎麼做啊"},{"start":10777.732,"end":10793.362,"text":"謝謝委員對這個資安的重視 資安也是國安那抒發不因為是我們國家的一個數位發展的一個專業機構那當然如果唐部長要做教練的話當然我們應該都要配合這個政策去做都應該要的我覺得"},{"start":10796.467,"end":10817.076,"text":"請教一下,從他們開始書發部成立之後到今天,你看我們今天早午有安排這樣的專訪那到底在這個過程中,到底書發部協力了多少?有沒有什麼行政的指導啊?還是做了什麼幫協助我們那麼多董做在場,對不對?到底做了多少啦?"},{"start":10818.556,"end":10833.664,"text":"我們知道數位部他其實做了相當多的一些規範跟一些指引要我們來去做遵守那至於說後續的一些怎麼樣去落實就是委員最重視的是怎麼樣去落實以及他怎麼去指導這個機關的意見相關規範都有定有關政府機關的部分 蘇巴部這邊他有"},{"start":10842.748,"end":10861.166,"text":"是同安全研究院來提供的技術的諮詢跟指導,包括教育訓練,金融的部分有經過你們覺得夠不夠用,或者是說他們這些給你們的指引或什麼,真的有幫這件事做好嗎?你們覺得說這樣子"},{"start":10864.969,"end":10886.014,"text":"至少他們在人力跟資源上比我們充裕,我們也從這邊得到很多訊息交換的部分,對我們是有用的我坦白講是覺得今天也沒辦法,抱歉部長你們是後端的,但是前端他這個訓練的結果我真的還是看不太到,因為才會有今天這個問題,我們就直接往下"},{"start":10888.054,"end":10903.778,"text":"這個坦白說我們為什麼一直有這個問題其實上次去年5月,不今年5月這個電子發票整個平台這個地方的這個漏洞而且我們也看得到它這個問題是什麼就是說你看在1789間這個公發公司上市櫃的這些有7%的這個企業它就是沿用這個預設的這個密碼"},{"start":10914.422,"end":10924.115,"text":"這也就是個問題就是說甚至你看這個包括中華郵政臺鐵這些也甚至自己還出現這種問題這個問題就是這樣講我們再往下我先講就是部長您看就是說我們雖然財政部"},{"start":10931.277,"end":10947.054,"text":"立議也良善我們希望說你要強制更換密碼啟動雙認證模式可是現在是這個問題是這樣就是說我們財政部我們現在主動希望他們要幹嘛幹嘛可是現在的問題是他們自己願不願意就不會 如果他們自己要是"},{"start":10951.638,"end":10963.329,"text":"反正也不以為意那才會出這個漏洞我們現在雖然在政策指導上是說你要這樣這樣子甚至你要演練甚至我們還說我們每兩年要最好進行一次紅隊演練等等"},{"start":10964.85,"end":10982.667,"text":"可是配合端那裡這個就有點像剛才前面一個層次事務發布到底有沒有教會大家那大家有沒有做到那再來就是你們現在正在落實的這個過程中那到底我們的公股行庫或者是誰他是自己也沒有辦法去落實那這怎麼辦部長"},{"start":10984.803,"end":11009.845,"text":"對於有關您剛剛提到那個我們的落密碼這個部分就是預設密碼大家都還在用預設密碼這個是不可以就像我們銀行拿到金融卡以後他給你一個密碼你一定要去換所以我們這次是要求這個使用者我給你預設密碼你強制要去變更如果你不變更我就會不讓你進來這個然後也定期要去變更這一定要做的不做的話他就不能進來這個系統就是落實的一個做法"},{"start":11011.447,"end":11026.58,"text":"對,謝謝部長其實就是希望說因為一開始我們是等於沒這個防賴機制所以大概就是說反正你給我譽證密碼我就用了反正我也不想動了那但是現在就是說可能現在我們應該是說在這個防賴機制上應該是先等於說我大概只給你這個時間"},{"start":11027.261,"end":11030.463,"text":"主要是因為紅隊演練的時間比較長那這樣大概會超過五個月的時間因為它模擬供給那另外還有就是"},{"start":11056.056,"end":11070.516,"text":"預算經費也比較高啦那這個如果每年做對對這個防守方向我們是防守方壓力其實可能在人力上的調配目前有一些困難"},{"start":11071.357,"end":11071.477,"text":"主席"},{"start":11092.751,"end":11119.465,"text":"要去設想一下,更前瞻一點,因為不然你兩年一次才做一次,這個頻率是真的太低了,甚至我覺得沒有辦法及時因應。那另外的話,這個演練的這個對象最後一句話,就是說當然我們現在是希望說是國營事業,上市貴公司,那這些是不是也應該要把它放進去,就是再擴大一點,因為我們現在主要都是在擺在我們自己納管的嘛,那你這個有沒有可能?"},{"start":11122.146,"end":11144.713,"text":"技術上可能跟財政部納管的系統範圍有關那上市櫃會員目前不在我們系統納管這個跟金管會那邊也談一談嘛就是大家協力一下嘛比如說我覺得說坦白講就是說我們常常看這個問題部會設了很多回到我最終剛才講的部會設了很多但是大家好像就是各踢了皮球"},{"start":11147.534,"end":11166.482,"text":"蘇發布說我當教練反正你們自己做不做是你家的事那我們現在承接我們也有我們的這個限制我們管我們的公股等等但是它每次牽連到的又可能跟直接的很多的上市櫃又有直接關係所以我覺得我們還是這個協力也要做好啦反正行政是一體的嘛應該有一個彼此那另外的話我覺得說"},{"start":11167.262,"end":11167.382,"text":"陳昭華委員"},{"start":11195.862,"end":11197.443,"text":"謝謝主席 請部長好 莊部長來委員好 部長好部長 我們國有地 國產署所管理的土地我們是不是每年都會編訴訟 訴訟費用"},{"start":11218.294,"end":11237.756,"text":"在我們的經費裡面當然會有編一些訴訟費用訴訟費用編得很多嗎?多,大概有一定的金額吧一定金額嘛,可是國有地被不當的使用我們必須透過訴訟去解決但是我們可以濫訴嗎?"},{"start":11240.134,"end":11242.155,"text":"在上個禮拜本席剛好有一個案子就是去跟監察院監委去討論討論有關那個間界的"},{"start":11263.638,"end":11288.701,"text":"那是一個私有地跟公有地的地界的爭議那就是竹北地震那時候的一個處理有爭議那爭議就是說土地的負障成果圖不拿出來"},{"start":11289.653,"end":11316.733,"text":"那沒有拿出來導致法院就判了錯判錯判就是私有地這邊的地主的土地就被移了5公尺那後來監察院監委這邊是地政的專業他接受本席協助這個說明的理由所以他願意再重新調查那我覺得監察院有熟悉地政"},{"start":11317.373,"end":11317.393,"text":"法規確認"},{"start":11347.125,"end":11348.487,"text":"以實際見解還是最優先"},{"start":11355.684,"end":11374.397,"text":"今天就是說因為國參署我們是用參考圖去告這個當事人那這個土地是在新店的一個有相含的一個道路那這個道路根據水保局103年的資料還有根據新店90年"},{"start":11380.429,"end":11400.636,"text":"的土地的這個證明都是證明這個湘寒是在國有地國產署管理的土地上面但是因為參考圖的這個界移動了所以讓那個湘寒地下的湘寒就跑到民地去了"},{"start":11401.124,"end":11402.244,"text":"本席認為新電地震的爭議可能是他們在數位化數值化的時候數值化的時候讓這個地界移動了"},{"start":11428.495,"end":11456.383,"text":"所以我不認為是國產署的事不過現在因為是國產署去提告那一審是敗訴然後又要上訴本席還是建議國產署要撤銷這個上訴那這個部分也不希望就是說還要走到監察院去讓國產署的這個訴訟這個濫訴成立本席也是建議這樣不知道我們財政部這邊看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":11457.264,"end":11467.399,"text":"財政委員報告,土地戒指的鑑定,它的權責機關在地政機關所以就國產署也好,就市人也好,都是一個地主的身份,戒指鑑定的權責都在地政事務所"},{"start":11471.413,"end":11496.517,"text":"問題就在這裡求員兼裁判就是說今天建界也是他作證也是他都是他所以他要怎麼亂講或者是說對當事人不利我們國參署不能跟著他們這樣子因為他也是公務員地震事故的同仁也是公務員但是我剛剛已經跟你講了竹北的那個案例竹北的那個案例就是明顯竹北地震有"},{"start":11497.657,"end":11520.125,"text":"您這個個案這個心電是不是可以署長也做一個說明可以嗎好那署長可不可以撤銷這個上述跟委員報告因為大概國產署都會陸陸續續收到一些民眾的懲請那因為目前有些在辦那個土地重測的時候這裡沒有土地重測不管是重測或是"},{"start":11520.965,"end":11536.916,"text":"不同的時代因為所有的設備儀器測量的結果可能會有一些差異如果今天不是因為他故意來佔用的部分我想我們會以輔導他取得合法化的使用為前提但不會以訴訟為標的"},{"start":11539.818,"end":11558.471,"text":"剛剛這個個案的部分因為是他是判決說地政事務所的間接結果是有所謂的錯誤不應該講錯誤啦就前後兩次的差異那當然這個個案的部分我們是比較形象說由內政部國土策略中心來做一次的重測"},{"start":11559.372,"end":11559.572,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11578.166,"end":11581.849,"text":"我跟委員報告很多的這些人都說他沒有佔用國有土地包括委員有一些農地工廠這些等等那也都是透過實際的一個見解的結果才可以作為一個處分點"},{"start":11604.125,"end":11605.265,"text":"本席剛剛已經說了像這個案子就是"},{"start":11630.592,"end":11644.304,"text":"陳清仁已經提出幾十次的實際上的土地間接成果圖所以我們國產署的判斷應該不以訴訟為主要的解決方法"},{"start":11646.277,"end":11675.644,"text":"瞭解嗎?那你跟我扯別的,所以我才會說,你們不要爛數嘛!政府預算編列不要用在爛數上面啊!因為所有的訴訟的費用也是政府的預算,事實上一定有它的需要啦!好啦,那如果真的有必要本席也可以代向監察院陳情。我們國產署的那個解決土地紛爭,沒有以實際見解為主要的依據,而是以訴訟為依據,我覺得真的是不妥啦!"},{"start":11676.683,"end":11677.804,"text":"本次會議做如下的決定"},{"start":11706.623,"end":11725.722,"text":"委員費煌泰所提書面質詢已列入記錄．刊登公報．並請財政部以書面答覆今日會議議程已進行完畢．堂友不在場委員補提書面質詢．亦必列入記錄．刊登公報．並請議事人員協助處理好謝謝各位散會"}]}},{"id":"148847","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148847","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4a3ae362186691398c6ac6a04f2f9d89dd8cd552855f1d3fc986728e607a0322f2c8319dc9f7edc15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李貴敏","委員發言時間":"10:25:01 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