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國民黨剛才都簽了所以這個第三、第四也不必了"},{"start":2749.639,"end":2772.368,"text":"第三、第四、政治檔案法以及國家基金保護法已經完成協商了,剛才我們私底下已經協商完畢了,都簽完了三、四案已經簽好了至於第五項以後,有關防護署的部分,明天中午還有一個黨團要協商所以我們今天會很快就集中在最低工資法"},{"start":2774.448,"end":2786.968,"text":"好,那這樣,就等於...等一下,我馬上先等一下,現在就是說我在這個..."},{"start":2789.741,"end":2798.792,"text":"我再附送一遍就是說三案、六案、三案、四案、六案就現在不必談"},{"start":2810.7,"end":2812.641,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":2837.366,"end":2837.766,"text":"有關這個第一案因為"},{"start":2859.034,"end":2878.41,"text":"這個案子已經審查很久了這個內政委員會審查完之後是要黨團協商因為我是召集委員所以就負責黨團協商所以我在去年的去年9月23號12月9號然後今年的3月24號"},{"start":2884.369,"end":2907.244,"text":"及今年的四月十一號召開了四次的黨團協商的會議然後其中在今年的四月十一號黨團協商的時候這個內政委員會的這個我們的委員是希望說當然就是莊瑞雄委員建議"},{"start":2908.625,"end":2929.125,"text":"是不是我們原住民的立委自己先凝聚共識所以由我來召開會前會所以我根據張惠雄委員的意見所以在今年的五月十號然後五月二十二號十月三十一號"},{"start":2930.948,"end":2942.383,"text":"召開了這個原住民委員的會選會所以我們提出了原住民委員的共識的條文完了之後"},{"start":2943.649,"end":2968.552,"text":"我們就在這個有了共識條文之後在今年的十一月十號又召開一次這個我主持的草野協商黨團協商完了之後大家對這個行政院部門行政部門行政院各部會對原住民的共識條文有意見所以才會"},{"start":2970.193,"end":2981.226,"text":"由中國國民黨黨團發文給院長來召開這個協商所以今天才會排在第一個這個意思是說是因為我們"},{"start":2982.489,"end":3005.07,"text":"國民黨的立法院黨團在11月14號就發文給這個院長謝謝院長今天把它放在第一案既然放在第一案是不是就照順序來如果各部會或是各黨團對於我們原住民立委的"},{"start":3005.991,"end":3034.319,"text":"所共識的條文有意見再往後延都可以不能是直接就跳過了是不是大家各部會是不是可以接受說不定他們都接受啊 對不對說不定他們都接受因為我在這個最後一次黨團協商的時候有請各部會再把這些條文好好的再看然後我特別還提到說"},{"start":3035.819,"end":3061.225,"text":"因為我們現在是在立法在過去還沒有法律的情況之下我們當時的省政府當時的省政府在沒有法律的情況之下就劃設了24萬多公頃的原住民保留地然後在民國76年因為省議員的意見立法委員、原住民的立委的意見"},{"start":3062.526,"end":3080.764,"text":"所以七十六年開始有增畫邊也沒有法例喔就可以增畫邊保留地現在我們既然要立法就必須要考量到這些所以我的意思說我才會說請各部會要考量到這個歷史的事實"},{"start":3083.046,"end":3100.845,"text":"　　　"},{"start":3102.679,"end":3125.895,"text":"原住民族保留地管理利用條例草案總共有35條那剛剛誠如鄭天才委員所提到的其實我們在之前已經各原住民的委員包括民進黨的兩會立法委員我們其實都已經協調出一個原住民立委的協商條文了而且我們有非常絕大部分的21條是"},{"start":3128.116,"end":3129.178,"text":"原住民族保留地管理利用條例草案（"},{"start":3145.878,"end":3146.399,"text":"政委、政首長謝謝院長"},{"start":3170.161,"end":3197.951,"text":"如同剛剛鄭天才委員跟高金委員提到了有關原住民保留地管理利用條例那基本上各部會也沒多大意見那也經過鄭天才委員召集原住民委員都取得共識所以我們贊成能夠盡快完成三讀來保障原住民的相關權益這第一點"},{"start":3198.971,"end":3219.517,"text":"第二點尤其是民進黨每次都講轉型爭議那為什麼轉型爭議就把原住民的該有的轉型爭議都把它提出我覺得這對原住民極度不公平所以我們贊成剛剛鄭太英財委員跟高金委員的意見 謝謝"},{"start":3223.918,"end":3251.825,"text":"謝謝院長這個原保條例是為了要解決長期以來原住民族土地上的問題那積弊很久原住民族其實也很辛苦多少的土地到現在都不合法建物也不合法那它上面住的不是只有原住民也有非原住民所以我是覺得最低限度至少"},{"start":3253.025,"end":3277.198,"text":"就是以願版我是希望說送出寫上盡早立法盡早確保原住民族土地的權益跟流失啦我覺得是我要表達的意見是最低限度好不好謝謝好那大家還有沒有意見沒有我們就進入進入討論了沒有意見就幾乎二讀趕快三讀通過"},{"start":3284.382,"end":3300.777,"text":"報告科總召其實原住民的版本有很多人提出不同的提案可是最後在鄭天才委員的草野協商之下我們自己原住民族其實已經原住民的立法委員已經有了一個原住民的協商條文在這裡"},{"start":3301.638,"end":3326.546,"text":"包括吳立華委員包括陳寅委員都沒有意見所以我今天就是希望能夠趕快來進行通過而且我剛剛講過行政院版本有35條21條已經通過行政院的版本只有幾條有爭議我們是不是就是針對幾條有爭議的部分我們趕快再來討論一下協商的意思不就是在這裡嗎所以我希望今天能夠盡快來討論 謝謝關於鄭天才委員"},{"start":3334.558,"end":3360.45,"text":"組織的草案協商是上行政院板還有十九條還是保留?是保留的?所以他每一條都卡來卡去,因為這個知識體大,我覺得這個不是短期這樣就可以談得完應該往後挪一下,我們再請求一些共識我說十九條條文,說二條文卡到哪一條?說不完,我聽說說不完"},{"start":3362.251,"end":3380.251,"text":"因為這個是一直遺留下來的,很多現實的問題,可能牽涉到利益衝突的很多當然我們希望就是說,能夠來解決啦,但是這個可能要一條一條拖,要十九條的,都沒留了"},{"start":3385.305,"end":3400.486,"text":"好,那高軍委員要第三度發言謝謝,謝謝院長我第三次發言,謝謝柯總召的意見我不同意大家都知道原住民的保留地管理利用條例草案已經放了非常非常的久了"},{"start":3401.107,"end":3427.958,"text":"如果按照柯總召的意思說我們的行政部門還有19條是有不同的意見那不就是要趁著草野協商的時候取出共識嗎而不是柯總召一個人在這邊就把原住民最重要的土地的轉型正義而一直在把它延宕我認為這是不合期、不合理、不合法身為一個原住民在立法院"},{"start":3428.678,"end":3448.152,"text":"原住民族的主任投出來的立法委員我必須要堅持今天草野協商不就是如此嗎不能夠因為說還有19條的爭議然後我們就把它延後討論我覺得如果這麼一來的話民進黨政府是對不起原住民族更何況今天我們的主委"},{"start":3449.053,"end":3470.403,"text":"一將主委就是當時走在原住民的權益上面原住民的土地上面的捍衛然後他現在還在位置上我相信他今天最想要通過的就是原住民族保留地管理利用條例草案而不是因為剛剛柯總召所講的因為還有19條的爭議然後就把它一直延宕這19條"},{"start":3473.084,"end":3500.315,"text":"大家應該出來討論更何況在內政委員會的時候也是莊瑞雄民進黨的莊瑞雄立法委員希望我們原住建議我們能夠先取得共識所以原住民族的周瑞雄取得共識了為什麼不能夠討論呢更何況原住民的立法委員也有兩位是民進黨的委員啊我不相信今天兩位原住民的立法委員會同意柯建民總召所講的我們再延後處理這一屆"},{"start":3501.275,"end":3527.418,"text":"我們都曉得這一屆如果這幾天草業協商不通過的法案這一屆幾乎就已經滅頂了所以我們早上在處理槍砲彈藥管制條例的時候我們也出席了也是新提的也是內政部警政署新提的案子為什麼新提的案子民進黨認為他是很重要的我們就可以"},{"start":3527.978,"end":3528.198,"text":"好 接下來 來"},{"start":3559.767,"end":3559.927,"text":"國民黨團提議．"},{"start":3584.977,"end":3607.489,"text":"好 謝謝我還是要再次表達因為這一次的版本其實原保條例有廖國棟委員、陳茵委員、我還有鄭天才委員的版本說實在版本數不多但是我們在10月31號不好意思我們也有我跟鄭天才委員共提沒關係就是四個主題版本 謝謝"},{"start":3608.65,"end":3608.911,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":3625.913,"end":3644.309,"text":"　　　　　"},{"start":3644.557,"end":3657.425,"text":"我是覺得最低限度不要讓他嘎然終止不了了之我最低限度我還是希望說要不然至少嘛就用願版來送協商好不好好謝謝好來廖委員"},{"start":3664.181,"end":3678.336,"text":"謝謝院長,因為我從很遠的地方趕回來為了要見證這個非常重要的歷史性的關於原住民的土地的這個法案然後在今天的院長的協商之下可以完成"},{"start":3680.359,"end":3704.289,"text":"這次我跟高津大概是最資深的除了那個我們民進黨的柯總召以外大概我跟高津是最資深的我們一直在等待從第一任開始六任結束了要結束了還沒有完成這個是非常令人無法理解也無法原諒一直在阻擋的那個理由"},{"start":3705.529,"end":3727.478,"text":"所以我還是這裡迫切的希望院長就我們已經都已經協商我們自己內部也都協商過了所以原住民都希望迫切的希望他快速通過不要再猶豫拜託我們今天一定要審查好不好而且完全我們協商過了嘛我們自己內部都協商了沒有什麼很大的問題啊院長"},{"start":3730.788,"end":3741.782,"text":"學商是要你們有共識不是我有共識這不是所長制啦現在立法院跟過去立法院不一樣不是所長制不是我講了就算"},{"start":3743.021,"end":3766.563,"text":"你怎麼這麼乖,要聽我講就算了我講就叫行政院辦好了我想這樣啦,大家要有民主紅圖就是協商就是各黨團都是一個個體你們要共識局互相尊重不要說跟你意見不同就是錯的這樣不行當然當然接下來高紀委"},{"start":3769.52,"end":3787.696,"text":"抱歉要磕腫招,因為我剛剛先舉手了,謝謝你講話不要亂扣帽子好不好我沒有扣你帽子,因為你剛剛希望原住民的這個保留地能夠延後嘛所以我才會針對你的說明,所以我希望就是不要延後嘛我沒有扣帽子啊,對不對"},{"start":3789.258,"end":3807.4,"text":"其實剛剛我很遺憾吳立豪委員在這邊發言那事實上吳委員的發言兩個重點第一個重點你希望往前走然後用行政院的版本完全通過然後第二個不要忘記了我們原住民立法委員當時你也在場鄭天才委員也在場"},{"start":3808.181,"end":3828.433,"text":"我們跟幾個部會草也協商各個不同的版本最後得出了原住民立委協商的條文我很遺憾今天根本還沒有再跟第二次的協商跟各部會就是各黨團草也協商你就已經棄守了我在這裡非常的遺憾我覺得你應該跟我們一樣"},{"start":3830.314,"end":3858.206,"text":"跟原基法在當時立法院在協商的時候我們原住民的立法委員是站在原住民委員協商的條文裡面來捍衛我們的權益而不是就是用行政院的版本至少立法委員的職責就是在這邊草野協商而不是一昧的通過行政院的版本如果一昧的通過行政院版本的話那麼我們是不是就不要第一次的草野協商了"},{"start":3858.786,"end":3871.016,"text":"好不好,我希望吳立豪委員能夠堅持一下我們在內政委員會裡面的協調跟協商最後的版本,謝謝因為他一直鼎勵我這麼多次,我真的在他旁邊聽大家要有觀念,這個條文我剛剛一直講說經過這年來委員組織的所有人都來"},{"start":3884.466,"end":3909.201,"text":"總共保留19條所以這19條有的互相牽扯到互相關貼這要有這個基本觀念那第二個你一直在打講什麼武力法不是說你們原住民委員你們的草案協商就算數這個法不是只有原住民委員可以審大家都各黨各的這有延長衝突的問題很多歷史的問題一定要處理好不好"},{"start":3910.001,"end":3929.84,"text":"所以我希望高金淑美委員你不要一方說我來否定你們的意思我是照意識規則看起來這個是政黨的政見台你主持還有19條啊19條你似乎沒有辦法接受你要照你們幾個文字文講的這當然不可能的事情啊"},{"start":3930.936,"end":3954.767,"text":"對阿,你聽我講好不好,你們一直在講這個是大家要來協商,有19條還沒協商,不是說你們三個講好的,我們就要招你們的嘛這是很重要的觀念,那老闆提議按一下齁,這又十九條了齁,不像現在這樣啦齁那後面喔,顛倒一下,最低工資先拿,那個只有三、四條而已嘛先,大家都看最低工資法,那這個往後,往後第四"},{"start":3956.38,"end":3958.261,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":3980.811,"end":4000.094,"text":"　　　　"},{"start":4000.407,"end":4028.122,"text":"那這個協商版本我們希望就以這個來為主剛剛有講了因為這個是原住民族人最大最大的這個意向、嚮往那我希望以這個協商的原住民立委的協商版本為主那甚至是到11月10號最後一次的黨團協商我、鄭天才委員、廖國棟委員我們三個人也協商了就保留了"},{"start":4029.002,"end":4029.463,"text":"十月三十一號"},{"start":4038.717,"end":4066.623,"text":"最後一次11月10號嘛我們三個人嘛 廖國棟 鄭天恩不不不那現在要保留19條 大家要搞清楚啊總召 意思 你們一直在講說你們人住民協商 大家要遵守什麼條例當然就要在今天協商啊 怎麼會今天不協商呢對啊 所以我只是要表達說 既然行政院版也出來了"},{"start":4067.683,"end":4096.759,"text":"我只是說最低限度我的意思是說千萬不要在這個會期這一屆我們又借其不蓄我不希望這樣子我要再次的表達最希望自己的版本通過要嘛今天至少原住民立委的協商版本那再要不然我們也就行政院版本沒關係我們就照照那個吧現在"},{"start":4097.639,"end":4111.465,"text":"吳委員完了以後就高津委員,高津完了就謝義雍委員,然後鄭天遠委員,然後鄭總召,齁,來公完,現在先公完啦,公完,現在有起頭發言前先講完啦齁,好,那現在就高津委員"},{"start":4113.102,"end":4126.867,"text":"非常謝謝我覺得柯總召委不可以這樣子一直點名我我點名他的原因是因為第一個他希望今天草野協商的順序能夠顛倒這是他講的"},{"start":4127.947,"end":4142.987,"text":"能不能夠顛倒也是要草也協商等一下要討論第二件事情就是您剛剛說原住民土地保留地還有19條是要協商的今天不就是要協商這19條嗎"},{"start":4145.971,"end":4166.203,"text":"如果不是這19條大家還有一些不同的看法跟意見今天就不要草也協商就直接在內政委員會裡面三讀通過了不是嗎那你不能夠因為還有19條有爭議今天就把我們延宕在後面這個我不同意這個我也不接受我相信"},{"start":4167.509,"end":4187.315,"text":"我在立法院是最資深的22年跟廖國棟委員我們在任何一件法案的時候也沒有否定原住民族立法委員互相各黨派不同的協商版本那你怎麼可以氣憤的走出去呢這個實在是我不理解的部分"},{"start":4187.995,"end":4211.528,"text":"原住民族基本法不就是有非常多不同委員提的版本最後我們原住民族立法委員取得共識然後取得共識然後再討論然後再到草野協商最後也讓他三讀通過了不是嗎最後我要提醒大家的是今天如果在這邊沒有草野協商的這個出去的話這個會期就"},{"start":4214.329,"end":4242.5,"text":"等於原住民保留地管理利用條例草案就滅頂了這個是我要提醒吳立法委員的但是我也要堅持我也要堅持我也要堅持如果今天因為我們要為了趕快讓他通過而放棄了原住民族族人還有原住民族立法委員所堅持的立場的話我也覺得很可惜謝謝"},{"start":4244.301,"end":4245.963,"text":"現在已經發言了是三位那還有三位已經起的發言前"},{"start":4261.954,"end":4282.227,"text":"　　　　　　　　　　　　　"},{"start":4283.735,"end":4308.991,"text":"其實我們根據這個就是我們所有在場的委員其實都已經充分的表達意見尤其所有的原民的委員也在場的原民委員也表達意見那其實我們應該要聽一下就是說那個原民會主委的意見畢竟他們提出行政院版本跟所有的就是原民委員溝通那到底為什麼溝通到現在還有19條保留條文那怎麼樣子有異議沒有辦法過"},{"start":4309.551,"end":4309.751,"text":"政經財務委員"},{"start":4323.371,"end":4345.936,"text":"很簡單這個經過非常多次的草野協商主持了然後原住民立委既然有共識的條文就成了剛剛柯總召講的19條那就針對這19條我們可以一條一分鐘有沒有意見 有意見我們就知道了 有沒有意見 有意見"},{"start":4348.063,"end":4371.23,"text":"不是 我是說我是說這種的我是我是說不要說直接就說弄到弄到後面我的意思是這樣所以你要很詳細的也可以我根本更希望更希望很詳細的而不是馬上就變成就放在後面所以這個部分這個就是因為只剩下19條"},{"start":4373.05,"end":4396.961,"text":"所以應該很快啊好 接下來就請曾永昭好 謝謝既然行政院有版本那原住民委員會既然提這個版本為什麼沒有在立法院還有溝通那恐怕原住民委員會主委恐怕不適任了對啊 行政院版本為什麼沒在溝通"},{"start":4406.055,"end":4430.797,"text":"那真的懷疑喔那這原住民委員會主委在做什麼我都覺得你還有你還想還坐在那裡我就很奇怪喔我贊成啊先讓他講講看嘛那有必要的時候請他出去啊會不會快一點謝謝因為我想先休息啦因為現在是黨團的意見不同"},{"start":4433.069,"end":4447.797,"text":"不是,是你們黨團意見要不要協商,要用哪一個做基礎,你們黨團的意見委員長,我做誠信問題,很簡單的發言就好了今天在草園上沒有錯,保留19條這是大家很清楚"},{"start":4448.783,"end":4473.572,"text":"那大家不要說我照原住民你們這邊協商的一定要大家要接受我沒有這樣講就好OK好那我是認為最低工資只有四個條件真的那只有頂的要這樣講起來嘛沒關係嘛都大家不要跑啊都坐下來啊還是坐在這裡假如照正面上的委員講說好四個條件有沒有意見有沒有意見保留這也可以這不是這個好嗎這個三分鐘就結束了"},{"start":4477.09,"end":4477.91,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位委員各位委員報告"},{"start":4508.622,"end":4519.818,"text":"這個保留的19條條文都跟行政院驗版沒有關係大部分都是各個委員的版本他們加進來的一個修正案"},{"start":4522.271,"end":4546.577,"text":"這個19條幾乎都沒有驗版的條文在這個地方所以在之前我們都已經想盡辦法請各位委員支持我們的驗版大概是這樣的一個過程也請謝委員特別跟你說明一下我想鄭委員自己那個都是委員的版本啦好 休息五分鐘 您講一下 講訴馬上出來來 好 休息五分鐘"},{"start":4962.971,"end":4978.821,"text":"院長各位同仁,我想今天我們協商法案是大家應該心明氣合,照遊戲規則來。那剛才聽了原住民主委的一句話,這19條都是院版沒有的新增的。"},{"start":4980.262,"end":4999.191,"text":"當然我們尊重原住民委員他們對於原住民權益的保障上面的努力這是一個很長期的課題在台灣天空已經至少三十年以上還有營館會牽涉到的權利義務很多我引進最近"},{"start":5000.236,"end":5022.153,"text":"那大庭啊,大庭判出來齁,這抵押錢不可以,抵押錢不可放有所謂的抵押錢齁,是會被拍賣的,所以這裏面有抵押錢是不可以放進去的還有很多包括農業錢等等、典當錢等等齁,就牽涉到剛剛這一個部分,就牽涉到非常複雜"},{"start":5023.874,"end":5034.282,"text":"那都整個辦好了那我再次的肯定當初市民包括有立法委員包括政經財委員包括"},{"start":5035.503,"end":5037.224,"text":"民進黨團提議．　　（國民黨團提議．　　（國民黨團提議．　　（國民黨團提議"},{"start":5057.418,"end":5066.552,"text":"至於後面那個19條文,我個人比較承認呼籲請主委再一溝通,否則我們吵不完,好不好?"},{"start":5070.441,"end":5090.009,"text":"好,那這樣齁,這個有關你剛才講的這個原保法這個部分還是要請主委再辛苦一下跟大家溝通因為那個有19條說意見還是不一致嘛那大家現在都覺得說那個我們先把這個"},{"start":5091.59,"end":5092.55,"text":"請大家先看最低工資法草案"},{"start":5119.05,"end":5135.302,"text":"現在大家就說這個最低工資怎麼溝通嘛齁主委肯定溝通你如果說今天這個要繼續我沒問題啊對啦對啦對啦啊我們現在這個最低工資法先給他先給他處理完這樣啊就討論啦來好"},{"start":5150.424,"end":5152.246,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5173.072,"end":5173.833,"text":"立法院黨團提議"},{"start":5184.067,"end":5184.268,"text":"國民黨團提議）．"},{"start":5205.896,"end":5226.384,"text":"民進黨想提代負債決議可是以前慣例很像負債決議就請他們到院會不是啊,負債決議我們都不處理那我就跟他們說請他們從在院會送不是,他們現在可以送但是我們就不處理就對了我們就收就好了就只有收就好了就收就好了問一下"},{"start":5238.083,"end":5239.284,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5263.72,"end":5265,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5293.356,"end":5316.557,"text":"好 那我來 要不要來 開始啦好 可以齁 開始 那我首先 現在就是 學校協商最低工資法草案啦齁 那我首先介紹一下我們內席的部會所長 勞動部部長許冰村女士 那我就介紹到這裡齁"},{"start":5320.933,"end":5346.142,"text":"好,介紹到這裡我先跟大家報告一下啦齁最低工資法草案齁這個社會福利及衛生環境委員會以今年10月18號完成審查保留部分是行政院提案共11條黨團與委員提案1條並於11月20日再進行協商最後保留齁行政院提案3條黨團與委員提案1條"},{"start":5349.443,"end":5373.349,"text":"所以現在就剩四條,四條就對了四條了齁,那我們就用這個十一號、十二號做基礎啦齁第七、第九、第十二以及十六之一啦好,那就以這個做基礎,那我們首先針對第七條針對第七條,來,第七條看大家有什麼意見這樣他先走手喔"},{"start":5382.111,"end":5406.549,"text":"好謝謝院長那各黨團的代表部長那第七條的部分是這個審議最低工資審議會的組成嘛那因為第一個部分因為這個院版政府關聯部會的部分有經濟部的代表一人國家發展委員會代表一人那結果沒有勞動部的代表那"},{"start":5407.95,"end":5426.531,"text":"對,那部長,剛剛上次有講啦那部長主持,但是部長是主席啊那你現在變成是說連一個勞動部的代表來代表勞工來發聲的這個席次都沒有啦那這是第一個第二個是說,上次"},{"start":5428.273,"end":5444.651,"text":"這個召集黨團協商的時候那現在這個我們可以看到是說有勞方代表7人、資方代表7人、學者專家代表4人那實例的版本是說勞方代表、資方代表、學者專家都是777、都是7人"},{"start":5445.231,"end":5464.773,"text":"那勞動部在解釋說那為什麼這個學者專家是世人因為這個日本是公正專家就是說這個公益委員他有一個叫做勞動策委員使用策委員就是資方的然後這個有一個公益委員結果這個按照"},{"start":5465.934,"end":5494.299,"text":"日本或是韓國都是日本是666然後韓國是999結果勞動部的說法勞動條件及平等是師長黃維琛師長有來嗎師長的說法是說我們看到其他國家像日本、韓國的審議的機制裡面就是三方機制那這三方機制就是等邊三角形然後學者專家這邊在家"},{"start":5495.859,"end":5511.357,"text":"那我們參考其他國家大概處理的部分就是政府方大概就是屬於公益方的這個區塊三方的代表人數是相等的市長你這樣講嘛但是你這個見解是完全錯誤的嘛你怎麼可以在委員會裡面這樣亂講"},{"start":5514.008,"end":5537.718,"text":"根本日本跟韓國都不是這樣的你自己在勞動部在一零五年的委託研究計畫報告裡面說什麼說南韓最低工資委員會分別為公會代表僱主聯合會代表跟代表公眾的獨立委員會一比一比一的方式組成日本相同政府部門亦未直接參與該委員會的運作"},{"start":5541.599,"end":5556.107,"text":"我們把日本的現在的最低工資的這個審議委員會的名簿全部找出來你可以看到這個他的所謂的這個學者專家代表就是那六席嘛"},{"start":5556.667,"end":5575.216,"text":"立政大學的經濟部教授．亞細亞大學經濟部教授．民智大學法學院教授．立教大學經濟部教授．獨立行政法人勞動政策研究研修機構的理事長．跟法政大學的這個教授．有哪一個是政府．政府策略代表"},{"start":5577.048,"end":5603.817,"text":"說勞動部怎麼可以在委員會在省召委主持在省的這個最低工資法的時候你用不正確的資訊在誤導委員不然你聽得懂我的意思嗎?你能拿去看你們自己的研究也說政府的機構政府的代表不是算入這一個公證公益委員就是這個第三方的這個學者專家代表裡面啊"},{"start":5604.497,"end":5624.321,"text":"你怎麼可以這樣說?結果導致說什麼?因為你的說法是說你把這個這個國會的代表也好或是經濟部的代表也好或你是這個主席你把它算進去所以你說這樣加起來已經學者專家只能有四個人這是不對的完全錯誤的一個資訊嘛你太狠了吧這真的很離譜欸"},{"start":5631.242,"end":5656.848,"text":"日本的中央、日本的最低工資審議委員會人的代表都是有名有姓他是什麼樣大學的教授都是有名有姓的專家他的政府的機關劣勢你如果說你勞動部不要有代表我也沒意見你經濟部要代表一人這個國發會要代表一人我也沒意見"},{"start":5657.768,"end":5673.927,"text":"但是你學者專家你過去的研究跟現在這個參考日本韓國韓國就是999日本就是666那你這裡你基本上你不可能是說你的專家學者到最後只剩下7個人嘛"},{"start":5674.528,"end":5692.586,"text":"那想也知道嘛你現在這個經濟部的代表跟這個國外會的代表他有代表產業界的立場啊他怎麼會是這個在日本人所說的叫做公益委員這想也知道嘛他是一側的他代表就算他跟你也不一樣的意見啊"},{"start":5693.507,"end":5719.811,"text":"同樣的話不要講四、五次好了他這個是錯誤的你應該要譴責他欸你現在在欺負委員對啊不是啊不是說廣告外圍你至少要讓人家充分表達我的意見嘛這是合理的嘛這明明是不對的事情啊所以師長我覺得第一個事情就是說你提供的資訊根本是錯誤的那你這個版本"},{"start":5721.268,"end":5745.903,"text":"應該有再討論的空間嘛這不是說現在你這樣呼呼的料保留啊保留料就柯總召一聲令下又六十起又撵過去這是不對的嘛這是一個可以講道理的 對不對那這個柯總召也看得懂日文啊你也能看啊你不是留學慶應大學K2台國所以你也可以看嘛"},{"start":5747.298,"end":5763.169,"text":"基本上這是可以說道理的沒有道理說你學者專家到最後變成四個人然後你自己經濟部也沒有你自己勞動部沒有代表就算了然後你又把經濟部跟勞動那個國發會的代表也算入到學者專家那是不一樣的"},{"start":5763.849,"end":5779.582,"text":"你現在你的政府的官員就像日本一樣就像你的自己的報告裡面有提到說政府部門亦未直接參與該委員會的運作但是如果他要列席的話日本也是一樣他如果我們這邊有找出"},{"start":5780.202,"end":5805.495,"text":"他的這個會議紀錄他在2023年7月28號第64次的這個會議紀錄裡面他有許多的像這個這個勞動基準局的局長林牧那或者是說他的什麼什麼有一些這個課長或什麼之類的他要列席大家沒意見啦對不對但是他不應該算到這個所謂的專家學者的這個席次啦這個很清楚好接下來請"},{"start":5811.634,"end":5837.582,"text":"賴祥林委員我想剛剛那個閒置委員他當然有他去比對日本跟台灣我們現在要修法方向的一個基礎跟勞動部來做更多的這個爭取但是我相信我們還是要面對這個審議委員會他不是過去我們講的這個什麼裁決啦或者是這個做一個這個權益上面的這個審定的"},{"start":5838.882,"end":5860.316,"text":"　　　　　"},{"start":5860.516,"end":5881.276,"text":"那基於這樣子的前提這個審議委員會過去在現在的基本工資審議小組裡面有大概也是21人嘛你們規模是沒有擴大那為什麼在審議委員會入法到現在以最低工資法之後不把它更擴大性我是覺得這是第一個大家要爭執跟理解的部分"},{"start":5882.56,"end":5901.561,"text":"那如果可以擴大的話我覺得審議委員會擴大到24人左右我們現在的版本也期待說部長當然是當人的召集人那增加勞動部的代表藝人我覺得因為就可以分擔部長在會上的角色也不需要陷入一個就是說你要裁決還是要做表態"},{"start":5902.502,"end":5924.054,"text":"這個我覺得是我們希望有勞動部代表的原因之一這是第一個我們各家版本我看了都有那再來是增值這個專家學者的人數因為專家學者在現在四人那包括勞方代表、資方代表我認為勞方代表特別是在資訊跟專業上要很大的"},{"start":5924.514,"end":5943.08,"text":"　　　　"},{"start":5943.28,"end":5966.11,"text":"反而我覺得學者專家如果七更能夠在大家希望的專業度的審議裡面把幾個參財指標的專業性以及它的必要的調配的機制說服各方所以我覺得學者專家能夠也到七這樣子也讓整個審議的程序會更能夠以真正的專業務實性來做最後的決策"},{"start":5966.77,"end":5996.23,"text":"所以我是期待說勞動部不用太堅持說一定要21可以增加那如果在這樣的一個基礎上這個的爭議我覺得已經很小因為幾乎每一個版本都差不多所以這裡想說就是各黨團如果沒有太大的意見我們是不是願意就提高額度到24人那勞動部或勞動部長之外的勞動部要不要派人或還有相關比較適合的部也有人那這個我覺得現在倒是可以聽聽看部長你們的考慮好不好"},{"start":5999.271,"end":6025.04,"text":"陳總裁第七條審議委員會是所有法裡面重中之重最重要那剛剛邱賢志委員提到了說要不要勞動部代表我不主張為什麼到時候還聽勞動部長的啊所以意思是說最重要是"},{"start":6026.753,"end":6054.512,"text":"勞方代表勞方代表最重要那專家學者我不瞞各位說我也在政府機關服務過很多政府聘的專家學者某個程度他會配合政府機關的期望所以這個不管是21人或24人我強力主張政府機關代表不用太多學者OK"},{"start":6055.578,"end":6082.696,"text":"但是勞方代表一定要讓他某個程度有機會過半這樣才能發揮他該有的功能政府基本代表像勞動部代表聽部長的啊經濟部長經濟部長聽部長的啊國發會也聽部長的啊那這種東西一點功能都沒有所以強力主張資方代表可以這樣"},{"start":6084.039,"end":6089.743,"text":"但是勞方代表要增加簡單講要在可控制的範圍內勞方的力量至少要再平衡或者要過半啊不然你你這個這個這個審議委員假的啦到時候沒辦法執行啊政府機關代表都沒有用都聽部長了嘛你說勞動部的勞動部的代表他敢違反部長的意思啊那不好啊"},{"start":6112.048,"end":6134.87,"text":"所以不管是21或24我強烈主張第一個 勞方代表至少要9個甚至10個那竟然我在經濟部不用代表反正國發已經有國發會代表了所以某個程度我是主張勞方代表要9個"},{"start":6136.462,"end":6164.766,"text":"那經濟部代表不用那專家學者少一個因為政府政府機關很聰明啦他會去聘比較符合政府機關期望的這些專家學者所以我建議再講一次經濟部不用啦國發會有一個那老方代表九個人專家學者可以再少一個吧"},{"start":6167.213,"end":6183.861,"text":"那就專家寫者維持吧不會啊,就是經濟部不用嘛那這樣還是21個啊增加勞方代表啊,專家寫者少一個啊增加勞方代表讓他某程度開會的時候一切可以過半"},{"start":6193.874,"end":6202.136,"text":"有可能過半,因為不可能寫到過半嘛至少要讓這委員會裡面牢方的意見能夠充分表現那開會的時候有機會過半"},{"start":6222.816,"end":6243.457,"text":"希望知道意思大家都聽了差不多十次啦齁能說清楚的他把這個專家這個齁這個部分真要氣人嘛齁可是大家也看一下這個法條是第七條但第十二條有一個研究小組研究小組研究結果還送給審議委員會所以他有不同的機制啦那我個人的看法就是說"},{"start":6244.813,"end":6269.038,"text":"有一句話叫 極惠淮為止我們不說日本怎麼樣我們就怎樣 各國的民情以及各國對於這個老子只有法體系的面相以及現實問題是不一樣這樣的話我們就以後的立法全部抄日本就好了所以我不認為就是說日本怎麼樣我們就怎樣 我們應該大家理性物質來談"},{"start":6271.959,"end":6290.936,"text":"不過這邊差一點齁 就是說 這邊有委員主張這個三角形嘛 717嘛 那個學者專家7個人當然學者專家你把他當公益代表 這邊也是公益代表啊 所以並沒有差啦 齁 就是說這是一個合意制的東西"},{"start":6292.057,"end":6314.203,"text":"不能有說向一方啟學,就是這個政經小組幫一方啟學,這會很大的問題反正是要平衡性嘛,各方的意見都要聽差異點是在說,現在專家四個人和七個人的問題嘛那就是21和25的問題而已嘛,秋委員應該是只有這樣而已嘛"},{"start":6315.783,"end":6341.842,"text":"那但是呢我們現在理性討論不要就是說沒有照這樣的話就是大家都是都不對啊怎麼樣就要譴責然後以聲量來取勝我還是請這個勞動部表示要意見的我想那個民進黨也是專家嘛大家都好來談一下"},{"start":6346.228,"end":6360.088,"text":"我補充一下啦柯總長剛剛有點誤會啦這個是勞動部的見解勞動部從頭開始他就是認為說我們看到其他國家日本、韓國的審議會的機制就是三方機制嘛"},{"start":6360.922,"end":6388.561,"text":"所以這是勞動部的設計那我也支持他這樣的設計啊就是說三個部分就是等邊三角形嘛對吧那時候他在委員會黨團協商的時候在2023這個今年的11月24號的時候他就說那如果說這邊勞動部再多一個代表我那是說啊你勞動部沒代表他說如果再多一個代表的話那這樣的話就會破壞這個三方的架構了"},{"start":6389.441,"end":6402.696,"text":"那這樣的話公益方就會最大的那他的說法是說因為參考其他國家政府方就是屬於公益方的區塊這是完全錯誤的政府方不是屬於公益方的這個區塊"},{"start":6404.158,"end":6429.887,"text":"按照你的這個說法日韓的說法都不是嘛 按照你自己的研究計畫都不是 按照這個網路上跨年黑年人家日本政府公開誰在當這個他的公益方的代表 誰當他勞方代表誰在當他的所謂使用策就資方的代表清清楚楚嘛 所以不要這樣騙人那你現在就是到底你要不要按照你本來所設計的三方機制要去設計"},{"start":6431.528,"end":6450.709,"text":"對不對一定是這樣嘛除非說你又天外飛來一筆說我還有很多新的那你有一個新的東西你要告訴大家你要告訴大家說你現在就按照什麼樣的規範是按照德國制度嗎還是說這個地球上的這個制度都不用參考你就自己發明一個也可以你只要能夠正當化也OK"},{"start":6451.289,"end":6470.258,"text":"那如果你按照你本來的說法就是日本韓國的最低工資法的設計的話那你這樣沒有道理說你把學者專家只變成世人嘛徵典在這裡嘛 對不對那你是不是說學者專家就是一樣跟這個勞方代表、職方代表一樣都是欺人"},{"start":6471.118,"end":6495.995,"text":"那其他的政府的代表那基本上雖然我也是認為說如果按照你的研究報告的話政府部門是沒有直接參與到該委員會裡面但是他可以列席啦他列席大家沒意見嘛那如果你要把他放進去的話那就是你現在的版本但是你至少應該把學者專家調到七人跟資方跟勞方的代表一樣"},{"start":6497.179,"end":6506.847,"text":"那至少這樣大家還能夠接受嘛否則的話你一直在這個司長你不能夠這樣都用這種錯誤的資訊來誤導大家啦接下來就先用委員然後鄭總召鄭總召講完了以後我們就請部長來回應一下好不好好來先用委員"},{"start":6519.216,"end":6546.605,"text":"其實我覺得剛才邱顯智委員講的其實有道理就是勞動部如果在就是說他們如果採用日韓的三番審議的這個模式的時候其實在引用數據的時候或者引用資料的時候應該要跟所有的委員說明清楚而不是說錯誤的就是說有錯誤的引用的部分因為畢竟我們不一定要完全的按照日韓的模式我們可以按照就是說如同柯總召所說的"},{"start":6547.125,"end":6567.295,"text":"　　　　"},{"start":6567.435,"end":6567.595,"text":"國民黨團提議．"},{"start":6588.166,"end":6592.13,"text":"這是最重要的一個想法就是說你們當初提的三方審議的想法那我覺得是不是我們就是應該要在這個地方讓勞動部長他可以充分的表達意見以後然後我們盡速的把這一條審議完成"},{"start":6609.251,"end":6616.843,"text":"政總只要講完就請部長來回應好 謝謝我剛剛建民兄講的很有道理其實這個"},{"start":6619.784,"end":6647.922,"text":"這審議委員會必須反映雙方的意見那達成共識那這個法 修法才有意義也才有它的功能所以我覺得偏向資方真的不好偏向勞方也不好所以我的具體建議是資方七位嘛 對不對那有國發位嘛 八位嘛那基本上勞動部他某程度他要配合這種政策所以他就九位"},{"start":6648.752,"end":6675.574,"text":"那老方九位那另外就讓就讓這個三位專家學者去做仲裁這樣的設計都還會偏向之方啊因為會影響決策嘛所以勞動部去拚的時候需要能夠盡量拚比較周性的我相信這樣的話才能夠發揮"},{"start":6678.22,"end":6680.661,"text":"因為真的啦 其他的條文都不太重要 這個條文最重要也看看 某程度顯示蔡政府"},{"start":6705.951,"end":6720.507,"text":"修最低工資法到底有沒有決心到底是不是打假球啊你如果那個有的在審議委員會都到時候會偏向資方那就不好啊沒菜沒一包啊整個都不好"},{"start":6721.522,"end":6726.986,"text":"主席 跟各位委員報告目前這個最低工資法審議因為它未來會有表決的問題就是說如果大家意見不一會有表決問題所以有表決的話這個整個為人數"},{"start":6743.2,"end":6763.507,"text":"　　　　"},{"start":6763.973,"end":6764.073,"text":"二、國民黨團提議．"},{"start":6785.176,"end":6805.558,"text":"老方、資方還有一個第三方第三方就是公正方所以我們的設計就是現在本來就老方、資方都七個人所以沒有問題那當初的這個公正方因為我們原來是現在的基本公司審議辦法裡面其實公正方就是包括專家學者跟政府方"},{"start":6806.823,"end":6824.117,"text":"那為什麼政府方要放到這裡面曾經在之前的基本工資審議辦法訂的時候也曾經考慮說那不然不要有政府方就是我們全部都是專家學者可是當時候勞方就反對他說不能沒有政府的角色因為尤其勞動部"},{"start":6825.964,"end":6844.787,"text":"　　　"},{"start":6844.787,"end":6862.5,"text":"　　　"},{"start":6862.967,"end":6863.327,"text":"《基本工資審議辦法》"},{"start":6885.234,"end":6914.296,"text":"在討論的時候他們也接受原有這樣的一個架構就勞資公正第三方所以才會說我們這裡面就是四名的專家學者再加三名的政府就勞動部經濟部國發會因為主要總體經濟的部分是這三個部位最重要的最了解的所以這個部分我們是跟大家做一個說明那如果說像邱委員這邊所主張的就是說如果今天"},{"start":6915.077,"end":6944.326,"text":"　　　"},{"start":6946.198,"end":6969.792,"text":"副總召、現在鄭總召我第一個,剛才部長講得很清楚我們要了解我們本來有基本工資法、審議委員會那未來就走上最低工資了換言之就是基本工資法、審議委員會就沒有了那基本工資法、審議委員會常常講的運作滿久,它的架構老是運作很久了"},{"start":6970.552,"end":6998.597,"text":"那是在這個有關於新規條狀的問題齁那蔡英文總統上來以後講了五次齁那我們這次是希望把租金工資立法完成以後然後這個基本工資審議完畢就沒有了齁那我們來看齁其實在立法院最早提的版本就是做到我右手邊的委員他在一百一十一年度的時候就提出來"},{"start":6999.617,"end":7020.664,"text":"他提出來的時候後來也陸續有八個委員有八個版本但是這個八個版本吳益勤委員最早排審議在一百一十年五月十九號排審議的時候這行為下去了這行為有條啦那時候是應該是吳益勤還是林文周排的林文周排的林文周排的嘛齁"},{"start":7021.664,"end":7046.844,"text":"那時候在衛安委員會,現在也在衛安委員會所以要排審,排審以後只五條,以後就審不下去了所以後來才有行政院院門進來希望說大家不要用懷疑的眼光或是互相抹黑說阿爹打腳球是何其神聖"},{"start":7048.665,"end":7063.497,"text":"原件的事情當然我們也不是指名立法啦我們也不是指名立法你不能按照那樣子按照日美韓國當然他講的是要參考不是說你全部來指名立法你不能按照交案例這不可能的事情"},{"start":7064.238,"end":7089.866,"text":"各國民情都不一樣 法律要件都不一樣那 勞動條例都不一樣 相當複雜既然已經運作了這麼久 大家應該有充分的對這個機制了解與肯定那 也是把這一支工資列出來 這請 因為大家都在看嘛那 我趕快把基本工資審議委員錄製 那以上是我的看法好 總統"},{"start":7094.165,"end":7106.456,"text":"剛剛謝謝許部長的說明你說這三方的設計我贊成資方、勞方那另外一方是公正第三方 對不對政府機關會是公正第三方嗎?會嗎?不會看看我贊成勞方、資方各七個但是公正第三方看怎麼調"},{"start":7120.455,"end":7132.449,"text":"部長,我們不是第一天當立委,也不是做一輩子的工人員政府會是公正第三方?沒人相信啊,你相信我不相信啊政府會是公正第三方?"},{"start":7139.721,"end":7159.253,"text":"主席謝謝我想這個最低工資法我們現在在立法的過程其實真的是把我們過去基本工資審議辦法提升位階所以它不是這個工資的審查不會是第一次而且是他們已經運作多年那勞資雙方跟學者專家的組成"},{"start":7162.995,"end":7179.671,"text":"其實這個法則是執法提升到母法的這個位階所以它是運作已經算成熟因為每年大概最低工資的審查幾乎每年都在審議所以這幾年也不斷的有最低工資的一個提升"},{"start":7180.251,"end":7201.515,"text":"所以我想在這個運作上應該是很順啦就過去已經這麼久已經很順所以當行政院提出他的版本的時候他可能發現一個問題過去他都有部長擔任召集人然後後面的委員21人然後發現是雙數所以他在審查他們行政院的版本的時候"},{"start":7201.915,"end":7202.376,"text":"主動把勞動部的代表拿掉（"},{"start":7223.097,"end":7245.776,"text":"　　　　"},{"start":7245.776,"end":7256.63,"text":"　　　　　"},{"start":7257.22,"end":7258.121,"text":"蕭麗芸議員蕭麗芸議員蕭麗芸議員蕭麗芸議員"},{"start":7276.923,"end":7301.622,"text":"所以那個時候如果多討論我覺得今天我們不需要在這裡好像因為時間很緊迫但是第二個院版提出來之後到現在也沒有多少天其實院裡面對於這個審議的機制如果套用過去的基本公司審議小組就不用用什麼法律位階提升然後強度如何如何所以是整個機制已經改變了包括有研究調查研究調查之後的資料要公告公告之後"},{"start":7302.603,"end":7326.915,"text":"涉及到最後決策部分還要再公告所以是不同制度不同鬼不是一樣東西照本宣科所以我們是期待在審議小組這件事情提升為審議委員會我剛剛已經講了最不計動用到投票的時候777這件事情還是社會比較能夠相信的就是說政府部門沒有夾這個什麼的意識來主導就是退到可能真的是"},{"start":7328.586,"end":7346.316,"text":"更客觀的提供勞資跟公益三方所以我們才會想出一個讓它777的這個設計機制這個我相信部長你們應該也了解跟勞團討論大家也不會反對這個777這件事情是可以接受那勞動部、經濟部、國發會代表或部長"},{"start":7349.485,"end":7365.471,"text":"在裏面的角色其實我們如果透過會議神議委員會設置要點或設置的規範你們怎麼樣投票怎麼樣做一定的表決我覺得到沒有必要在這裏去爭執所以我覺得從善如流還是讓"},{"start":7366.371,"end":7392.554,"text":"基本公司審議小組提升未接之後的委員會據審定審議資格的權限不要被架空不要被架空就要取信於社會那現在如果777這三方是用學者參加稱家為欺人是比較可以讓社會理解的那我覺得這個修法方向是值得大家來支持好不好好那趙院長怎麼樣院長我請瓜公子補充一下剛剛"},{"start":7395.56,"end":7422.518,"text":"剛剛這個部長也有講說事實上日韓基本上他沒有把這個政府方算入這個公益方你剛才也說事實上也是這樣嘛所以這個是事實上政府方就不會被算入做第三方架構的這個公益方那你說其他國家到底其他國家有哪一國是這樣做的因為其實你從頭到尾勞動部的主張都是在參考日本跟韓國嘛"},{"start":7423.319,"end":7453.319,"text":"　　　　　"},{"start":7453.859,"end":7475.246,"text":"就是說其實就是非常簡單因為你本來你部長要當主席然後你設了一個經濟部跟代表經濟部代表跟國會的代表那我們的設計就是說你還加了一個勞動部的代表一人的話就是勞動部長跟勞動部的代表就兩人那再加上比較偏產業的經濟部跟國會那他也有兩人嘛"},{"start":7475.686,"end":7491.416,"text":"那你其他的學者專家有七人對不對然後勞方代表、資方代表有七人那這樣的話剛好就是可以有一個等邊三角形的架構啊否則的話你現在這個就是說你的現在這個版本基本上我認為是獨步全球"},{"start":7492.256,"end":7513.165,"text":"第一個就是說你打破了本來的等邊三角形的關係嘛你學者專家只有四人嘛那也不可能認為說你的這一些這個所謂的政府機關的代表是公益的代表那就再加上說你就算你當主席好了你也只有一位嘛那經濟部的代表跟國發會的代表又有兩位"},{"start":7514.185,"end":7528.743,"text":"所以你這個等於是說在日韓的機制裡面你又獨創了一個獨步全球的機制那你假設你要獨步全球的話你也要去告訴大家說你的正當性基礎何在看不出來啊"},{"start":7529.864,"end":7544.979,"text":"所以才會講說其實就是非常簡單我們的機制也設想到說這個是一個基數就是25人那勞動部長當主席然後有一個勞動代表有一個這一個經濟部跟國發會的代表那剩下就是等邊三角形"},{"start":7546.241,"end":7560.832,"text":"這個應該是一個比較能夠兼顧到說各方的利益的狀況而勞資雙方應該也可以來接受或者說你現在的這個狀況很明顯的一定是往產業這方面去傾斜"},{"start":7562.711,"end":7585.635,"text":"對啊,而且你在法制度上面你如果要不是說獨步全球不行如果你要真的獨步全球的話那你的說理的理由就要非常的充分而不是輕巧一句話說政府機關的代表就是工一代不是啊,這顯然不是你的研究也不是實際上你上網看一下這個日本的這個狀況當然也不是這樣嘛"},{"start":7588.536,"end":7604.311,"text":"那日本的狀況就是是不是會有官員當然會他開會的時候一大堆的官員都列席在這邊只是說就像你的研究報告說的政府的官員並沒有直接參與到這個裡面去算這個票數"},{"start":7605.672,"end":7621.634,"text":"那這樣的話當然就是能夠讓整個呈現出來的各方的這個利益而且這勞資雙方本來就是一直在角力的這個狀況之下讓學者專家然後提出他的專業的看法而且他的學者專家這六位的學者專家"},{"start":7622.415,"end":7649.033,"text":"分別都有各種不同的這個專業包括經濟學的專業包括法學的專業包括勞動的這個專業等等之類的那這樣才能夠把你本來比較多元的意見把它呈現出來嘛那這樣也才能夠真的達到是說你的最低工資審議的時候這牽扯到多大的一個社會的一個變動跟一個利益所以你這個是一個很知識"},{"start":7649.773,"end":7674.952,"text":"提大的問題你如果說你的設計基本上是一個兄弟獨創的一個制度的時候那這個其實是非常非常危險的啦所以我真的是會覺得語重心長就是說你應該還是要固守在等邊三表情的情況之下只是說你勞動部長要當主席的情況之下能夠把產業跟這個勞動這方面都能夠這個予以兼顧"},{"start":7676.254,"end":7678.934,"text":"我先回應一下我剛剛所聽的所謂獨木全球只有日韓兩個制度是全球化的,全球化是日韓制度"},{"start":7705.517,"end":7717.507,"text":"他的制度是獨木全球沒有錯阿不是立法殖民地是他自己就是這樣主張阿他自己就是這樣主張你不能這樣講我就跟你講阿他從頭到尾他的主張就是這樣阿你講話說聽聽聽我叫國務院在查委這樣說"},{"start":7729.318,"end":7733.42,"text":"我是跟你討論說他的說法 因為你沒有參與在委員會嗎?第一個事情就是說他在委員會的這個說法 這個說法就是錯誤的嘛!市長你自己講!市長你自己講!"},{"start":7751.01,"end":7751.13,"text":"民進黨團提議．"},{"start":7762.489,"end":7791.362,"text":"第一個我們來收人解釋啊什麼叫獨入全球他說我們和日韓不一樣都是獨入全球然後難道是日韓是全國都是日韓體制嗎不可能的事情嘛每一個國家都不一樣嘛而且喔你有這個這個可以辯證的你從方向來辯證你說這個非常危險我也可以說你這個非常你的設計非常危險對不對因為你怎麼樣你現在把這個學術專家分成七個喔"},{"start":7792.509,"end":7818.564,"text":"然後代表講 啊這個你找來的 你上面還有三個 你就請學因為這個運作很久了 這個是大家一體兩面的看法所有的正義 所有邏輯法律 都是可以辯證的沒有是 你講的還對所以沒有所謂獨立全球 只是不同於日韓而已我們立法不是說 他有去參考 你這樣參考你要抄他的"},{"start":7819.537,"end":7835.102,"text":"我還在講我們不是立法殖民地每個國情都不一樣這是第一點第二點你所謂危險你所謂危險像中央清險你這樣設計也是危險的對不對大家要講清楚喔第三個我要講清楚那讓我講一下我還沒講完第三個"},{"start":7840.484,"end":7854.432,"text":"我們這個機制已經應用很久,已經審議委員會然後再改,然後又少一個人但是請看第十二條,剛才賴相林委員談到,大家看第十二條十二條有研究小組,這個研究小組有這個設計,裡面有審議委員四個人,哪有新的專家"},{"start":7862.496,"end":7885.932,"text":"這樣一個機制,然後呢,他們每四個月要向沈議員提出最低工資只是對經濟及就業情況的影響報告,大家提出影響報告然後那沈議員開會前,他們三十天前要把資料送給沈議員,就是在研究小組所以我們有不同的機制設計,前期還要設計,這個是合體勝打因為這個成績要達到資格合體,合體要穩定當然要進去,你說國會代表是,就是無所後悔的啊"},{"start":7892.336,"end":7903.692,"text":"都不代表黨府會後悔啊難道說我們把國家共青運放在那邊啊 大家在那後悔什麼 能夠表決掉 誰要負責這真的很慎重的事情 不過卻是委員一講"},{"start":7905.08,"end":7932.686,"text":"希望你聽人家講話當然你可以不同意我的意見但是你不要跟我講話以上是基本的看法為什麼我會說獨步全球是因為勞動部師長怎麼說他說我們是參考其他這竹子喔竹子一支一支我們是參考其他國家大概在處理這部分的話政府大概是屬於公益方的區塊"},{"start":7934.247,"end":7957.667,"text":"三方代表的人數相等的部長怎麼說部長說公正方就會包括政府代表機關和學者專家代表那公益那這個政府代表跟學者專家就是代表公益方對不對你說你參考其他國家日本韓國我在跟你講說不是這樣嘛日本韓國人家的公益方都是專家學者"},{"start":7959.049,"end":7970.625,"text":"這樣所以我才會說你的這個這個版本是獨步全球嘛那柯總召根本完全都沒有在看這個委員會的時候這個部長跟司長在幹嘛那你提出的這個都是錯誤的資訊嘛"},{"start":7973.407,"end":7992.772,"text":"以提出的是錯誤的資訊我才會說他的這個版本是獨步全球因為他的說法他是認為說他要學習日本跟韓國嘛對啊 什麼在那邊轉拜託 這個是救世問世欸那你現在這個事情的時候你要獨步全球的話你就是要 你的制度要有一個正當性基礎嘛"},{"start":7993.852,"end":8020.21,"text":"那你的正當性基礎在哪裡啊完全看不出來啊這才是一個非常大的問題嘛那我也已經幫你想好就是說你如果你要當主席那你要有國會代表、經濟部代表你就再加一個一個勞動部的代表那你就二比二那你可以讓你的這個勞方、資方跟專家學者都是七比七比七比七嘛那是不是就可以讓你的等邊三角形的架構"},{"start":8021.823,"end":8049.034,"text":"你的制度也要有一個根據所在嘛那你不能是說你自己隨便輕巧一句講說啊這個就是政府方代表就是公正方代表你不要這樣互軌了事實上是不一樣事實上我要告訴你的就是說你的這個機制弄出來之後是獨步全球但是這個獨步全球的機制運作下去未來會不會有風險當然有風險因為比較法上面從來沒有一個機制像你這樣子啊好"},{"start":8049.955,"end":8059.715,"text":"謝謝大家 因為這麼久沒有公示 所以編案保留請大家看第九條編條保留請看第九條"},{"start":8062.211,"end":8081.12,"text":"第九條有什麼意見沒有意見我們就照有意見主席不好意思院長這個最低工資的這個年度調整的幅度那我們是認為說不得低於這個消費者物價指數年增率的漲幅"},{"start":8081.9,"end":8091.684,"text":"那也不得低於前一年的最低工資啦這是當然是必然之例那其實跟院版的差異在於說院版他是認為是說應參採啦那應參採當然就是可以參採可以不參採嘛"},{"start":8097.869,"end":8098.009,"text":"民進黨團提議．"},{"start":8113.579,"end":8134.553,"text":"假設年增率都已經百分之三了結果你最低工資才漲百分之一而已那這個到底意義何在那其實比較法上面也有把CPI年增率當成最低工資調漲的這個樓地板也就是說最低的標準的做法比如說像法國他就明確的將最低工資跟物價上漲的幅度相互的掛鉤"},{"start":8136.514,"end":8162.271,"text":"那這當然就是說 這個政院版他雖然是有把CPI列為應參採的指標但是他基本上是沒有任何的這個法律上的效力的所以就這個部分的話我們認為這個應該是要可以有一個拘束力然後讓他真的能夠將這個最低工資的這個保障還有跟CPI可以相連結好 接下來謝議員委員"},{"start":8166.687,"end":8184.655,"text":"委員長與會的同仁我們其實也是贊成實例這樣子的看法其實我們認為說目前的條文裡面僅參裁CPI年增率那的確不足以保障最低工資基本勞工生活的權利因為畢竟我們知道說"},{"start":8186.336,"end":8213.172,"text":"現在的CPI指數是逐月的上漲勞工生活的壓力非常大是不是我們最低工資是應該要參採應該要不得低於CPI的年增率而不是只是參採而已因為其實CPI也不會完全反映全部的生活費用的上漲"},{"start":8214.093,"end":8215.014,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":8232.208,"end":8257.964,"text":"最低工資法的核心就是所謂最後的年增幅度會怎麼定出來所以參財指標的因跟得當時大家的爭執就是說為什麼只有一個因作為參財的內容算是過於賭在以CPI為主的看法那它跟通膨也許有關但是它跟我們的生活的相關的成本之間的聯動有些反應不出來"},{"start":8258.644,"end":8284.287,"text":"那德參財部分勞動部是列了十項那我看各個委員的版本包括我們民眾黨的版本也都有多了一兩項不一樣的部分那所以如果是德參財的部分我覺得能夠再增加一些指標讓學者專家、勞方、資方有所在討論的時候或面對這個各個指標之間的聯動性是比較周延性的所以我覺得沒有必要說"},{"start":8285.087,"end":8313.734,"text":"既然只是得參財為什麼在項目上面只有那麼少之前有跟施長跟部長都溝通過所以我覺得看起來大家對於這個是第一個的落差第二個就是說要不要限定不得低於消費者物價指數年增率漲幅且不得低於全一年最低工資其實很多的版本也都有那勞動部跟施長說那難道年年漲上去這個怎麼有可能會不會有情勢變更經濟狀況不好的時候要有一些彈性空間"},{"start":8314.494,"end":8337.193,"text":"所以我是覺得說如果今天已經只有一項叫做因參採大家也了解你們的內容的話那得的部分我真的覺得希望可以多增加一些第二個部分是沒有公式沒有公式是大家對於這個基本工資審議辦法裡面目前是完全不曉得這麼多指標之後公式到底是二分之一的CPI加三分之一的什麼"},{"start":8339.173,"end":8366.802,"text":"這個平均年增率還是GDP的各種參財這個都沒有內容所以我是希望說我們剛剛有提了一個附帶的決議那能夠就滾動式來面對什麼是因參財跟得參財以及未來如果經濟情勢有一些不一樣的時候我們如何來修訂來提升這個最低工資作為保障最低生活收入跟勞工及其受扶養者的最低生活薪資的這個保障性"},{"start":8367.542,"end":8387.032,"text":"這才是我想這個法最核心的部分所以我希望說這個院版第九條我的是在第十條我們黨團是在第十條這部分在成才的指標以及不得低於前一年最低工資這部分還是能夠入法來讓國人對這個法是有期待的"},{"start":8390.191,"end":8417.325,"text":"好,謝謝我首先要跟勞動部部長說明也跟所有的黨團代表說明我們的名稱叫最低工資法所謂最低工資法不是保障名目的最低工資不是保障他的名目啦名目沒有用啦要保障的是他的實質薪資他真正的購買力嘛這才有用啊"},{"start":8418.886,"end":8447.042,"text":"不然物價一直上一直上漲前陣子央行總裁在參會也承認過去台灣的低物價所以CPI大概是第一大概一左右未來百分之二左右會是常態主計長也承認那你假設這個最低工資法保障他名目那沒有用啊一直物價一直漲一直漲"},{"start":8449.076,"end":8449.837,"text":"現在行政院第九條還有問題"},{"start":8476.448,"end":8497.599,"text":"第九條最低工資行政院的版本最低工資的審議應參採消費者物價指數年增率擬定調整弧度這是第一項第二項裡面的第六款又講民生物價及生產者物價變動情況這兩個又有重複只是定義不一樣所以我是支持我們黨是希望"},{"start":8501.618,"end":8509.749,"text":"每一年的條幅不得低於CPI為什麼CPI?就你實質購買力嘛像最近幾年都知道啊,負的啊你的薪資是負的嘛"},{"start":8515.629,"end":8515.769,"text":"一年賺一個資本額"},{"start":8543.488,"end":8553.354,"text":"甚至兩個資本額的這些上市商務公司 很多來低薪的那你看 股價帳的 老闆拿去股價帳的 老闆拿去那你一年賺一個資本額 也不願意拿錢出來"},{"start":8563.956,"end":8564.276,"text":"接下來 郭總統"},{"start":8593.097,"end":8613.058,"text":"主席各位同仁我想針對剛才幾位的發言那行政版本和其他在野黨版本不一樣的地方就是說因參財消費者物價只是年增率那在野黨版本是誰"},{"start":8616.48,"end":8643.335,"text":"每年度的調整不得低於消費者物價指數和漲幅且不低於前年最低工資我想沒有人敢去往下調了這一點我想應該是很確定的就是要往上調吧大家也不要這樣疑慮至於賴相英委員所說的要公示你們本本也沒有提公示"},{"start":8644.255,"end":8645.636,"text":"租金、年增率等住宿成本"},{"start":8672.011,"end":8699.554,"text":"那這樣委員就會扶養筆事實上講到租金的部分,民進黨也有租金補貼那現在我們在收手的稅、扣抵、特扣的部分也要把租金放進去所以有不同的政策工具都有在處理這部分我希望就是說,我相信勞動部也應該都有考慮清楚基本上當然我認為行政版本應該相當完整"},{"start":8703.083,"end":8730.346,"text":"好來部長來主席還有跟各位委員報告一下第一個就是那個是不是會怕說會有低於前一年的薪資的這個狀況我想自有基本工資審議以來從來沒有發生這種情形從來沒有那未來最低工資法我想是讓它法律這個它的位階提升到法律更不會發生這種情形所以我認為這個大家可以不用擔心第二個是不是說要"},{"start":8731.087,"end":8731.227,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":8748.947,"end":8748.987,"text":"國民黨團提議．"},{"start":8774.284,"end":8786.844,"text":"三點五十但是那一年的失業因為金融法要整個裁員失業的很多阿減班休息到多少二十三萬人那如果說你連一點點"},{"start":8788.76,"end":8815.278,"text":"因為我們最低工資適用的是邊際勞工,最弱勢的勞工那他可能首先就可能會被裁員所以可能這個就是說他這個在基本工資最低工資的一個條幅的斟酌他還是要有一些彈性除了說CPI當然是關係到他的購買力但是整體的涉金情勢這個也是要考量"},{"start":8816.158,"end":8830.735,"text":"所以這個部分就是說我們為什麼認為說還除了因為我們只有列一個CPI是因為勞資雙方有共識說他是因參財指標所以這個我們放進去但是其他的部分大家沒有共識說都要提升到因所以我們用得"},{"start":8831.015,"end":8852.722,"text":"　　　　"},{"start":8852.722,"end":8875.776,"text":"　　　"},{"start":8875.776,"end":8902.363,"text":"　　　　　　　"},{"start":8904.622,"end":8930.569,"text":"恐怕你後面的人沒辦法答覆我的問題你這非常特殊特殊的情況你不能用極度極度非常特殊的情況這第一點第二點部長你是勞工部的部長你剛剛講的話應該是經濟部長講的話你要站在一千萬勞工的立場"},{"start":8931.923,"end":8938.026,"text":"定這個最低工資法你剛剛講的話應該請經濟部長來講不應該是你的立場讓他定進去啊你不能用這種海嘯啊這種海嘯當然會發生啦以後也會發生啦只是說多久才會發生一次你用極為極端少數的案例去否決一個可行我何況你剛剛自己講了"},{"start":8961.778,"end":8974.856,"text":"所以我們還是贊成你不定這個最低工資法你不能定的是一個名目你要保障一千萬勞工的實質購買力謝謝"},{"start":8980.407,"end":8981.628,"text":"副總裁謝謝主席"},{"start":9010.627,"end":9024.404,"text":"那所以應該是從這個角度出發嘛因為你現在如果是說這個物價飛漲已經到百分之五了但是你的這個基本工資只有漲百分之一而已如果按照這樣的規準因為你應參採 可參採 可不可參採"},{"start":9027.427,"end":9045.979,"text":"到最後的話他的實質購買力是倒退的他要怎麼生活下去因為我們的角度應該是站在這樣的一個角度所以其實很清楚你看你第七條只願意接受說學者專家只有四個名額嚴重壓縮審議的專業性之後後面評估小組的報告又不願意在審議會前公開然後在審議的指標上面"},{"start":9055.575,"end":9057.003,"text":"只有訂定一個參採的指標啦"},{"start":9059.628,"end":9086.349,"text":"其實你現在如果把它跟這個CPI再連動起來的話它其實是一個落地板啊它不是說一定到多大的程度它只是一個最低的保障嘛所以這怎麼會說因為這樣的話會影響到最後它會被解雇等等之類的而且你的舉例基本上那都是在一個非常極端例外的一個情況之下現在要問的是說"},{"start":9087.33,"end":9107.025,"text":"通膨如果是一個常態的話那通膨本來他就應該可以反映到說他的這個最低工資的這個條幅嘛那第二個就是說這個剛剛提到了基本工資不會調低嘛那是過往的這個審議的慣例但是法"},{"start":9108.137,"end":9127.826,"text":"的這個特性在哪裡法就是基於說不相信權力的擁有者我們不知道說未來的權力擁有者是誰所以相信大家也不會反對說我們把它明確入法然後讓台灣一千萬的勞工有一個基本的保障這相信大家應該不會反對"},{"start":9131.109,"end":9137.111,"text":"我現在所在辯證的就是假說與說的問題啦我從假說的立場上來講我的觀點從與說的立場有與說的觀點但是最基本的剛才邱委員講了一句話潛意的擁有者他不敢濫用潛意的"},{"start":9159.549,"end":9176.439,"text":"這事裡面還有研究小組,還有結合專家。那,包括剛剛鄧炳中所講的,老公婦絕對是他為一千萬勞工的潛意,以及他購買意義,這上面來遮掩。所以就是大家的角度、觀點不一樣,因為參財的問題。"},{"start":9180.066,"end":9195.833,"text":"若能夠定出公事我當然最好事實上不可能嘛這是不可能的事情所以我是覺得大家不要互相否定啦應該是比較寬廣的立場來看待這只是假設說從不能的角度來但最後的結果"},{"start":9197.492,"end":9197.812,"text":"請院長講究材質吧"},{"start":9233.913,"end":9248.518,"text":"其實我們都知道如果在一個重大的世界的金融風暴的時候我們政府或者是立法部門都會提出相關因應的特別條例所以當許部長他以金融風暴來作為"},{"start":9249.898,"end":9254.421,"text":"我當然也贊同說不一定要有一個實際的公式但是必須要把這個實際的就是說我們勞工的實際購買率能夠參著進去那才是我們定最低基本工資的一個基本的精神"},{"start":9271.653,"end":9294.594,"text":"所以我覺得不應該要用金融風暴因為金融風暴就像COVID-19一樣我們都會用一個特別條例來協助國內的產業以及協助勞工那怎麼樣子在基本公司的時候表達就是說我們對於勞工的實質購買力的這樣子的一個保障那我覺得這才是我們在立法的時候必須要著重的精神"},{"start":9296.305,"end":9319.185,"text":"委員長補充一下剛剛科長早講說權力的擁有者不會濫用權力當然不是這樣因為台灣的歷史有多少權力的擁有者濫用權力所以我們等一下才要去審政治檔案條例所以你就是要透過法去把這些權力的擁有者把他拘束住"},{"start":9320.006,"end":9320.526,"text":"二、研商"},{"start":9340.247,"end":9341.408,"text":"我只要一分鐘就好了"},{"start":9361.434,"end":9373.78,"text":"教員政治檔案法已經不是等下審已經大家簽名了你自己都簽了好啦那我要跟你講的就是政治檔案法是講轉型正義不要好那隱意不要失意啦那不一樣的東西"},{"start":9375.483,"end":9388.306,"text":"是一樣的東西啊因為過去就是因為有太多的濫用權利嘛所以國民黨威權統治的時候去台灣有多少的濫用權利擁有者濫用權利導致破壞人民的狀況啊所以你不能這樣說嘛所以我們才說要用法去"},{"start":9399.749,"end":9415.936,"text":"民主時代也是要討論這個問題不然的話立法院就會被處理不然就不要立法院了嘛你就期待一個這是什麼樣的權威思想拜託我是真的建議那個柯總長你不要用這個權力的這個一再去重申齁因為這個建議我們的賴副總統跟蔡總統說最低工資要達三萬有嗎"},{"start":9423.732,"end":9445.709,"text":"沒有啊那為什麼漲不上去怎麼弄其實從這個經濟的成長率換算到現在其實該漲的搞不好超過三萬但過去就是沒有嘛一、沒有公視二、沒有辦法把參財指標公開透明所以今天才透過法案重生、重做那要講公視是不是公視請人幫啊"},{"start":9446.83,"end":9464.624,"text":"我請教就是說如果說我們今天沒有公視那把不能低於前一年這個CPI這件事情入法其實是一個替代公視的一個模組因為它是研究報告提出來的所以我覺得如果兩者都沒有其實是沒有辦法說服國人說我們會把這個"},{"start":9465.725,"end":9484.838,"text":"　　　　　"},{"start":9484.918,"end":9507.923,"text":"只是後來很多人大家跟勞動部討論過後也確知他講的一些現實狀況所以我覺得要保一個基礎性第二個這件事情不是千萬勞工啊他是邊際勞工大概三百五十萬人左右那我覺得這一些是一個我們必須要在法制上讓他們感受到政府誠意不然那個三萬啊三萬幾都是用喊的是沒有用的"},{"start":9509.383,"end":9534.476,"text":"我看部長你回一下如果大家還是沒有公私就保留就這樣我再一次說明一下我們CPI是一定要考量這個絕對是沒有問題而且我們把它定在因參採的一個指標現在只是說你是不是要把它定名說我的漲幅一定不能低於這個CPI我現在是認為說如果我們在一個法律把它定成這樣的話"},{"start":9535.657,"end":9555.282,"text":"　　　"},{"start":9555.382,"end":9570.449,"text":"用最低工資的都是最邊際最弱勢的勞工他可能會影響到他的就業所以我才認為說我們不要定死他他是一個因參才指標但是還是要給審議委員有一些那個"},{"start":9571.209,"end":9571.669,"text":"那就保留了"},{"start":9595.68,"end":9601.269,"text":"好 保留 好 謝謝大家 我們就看下一條 就是第12條好 第12條大家意見怎麼樣 來"},{"start":9607.683,"end":9632.616,"text":"院長,第十二條我的意見是說跟院版的重要的差異是在於說應該事前公開這個研究小組的報告那就是說這樣的一份研究報告當然你好不容易已經有一個這樣的資料然後把這個研究報告做出來那並且有一些調整建議等等之類的"},{"start":9633.797,"end":9656.56,"text":"那當然就是應該要事前要公開嘛那我們實在是完全無法理解就是說為什麼這樣的一個報告然後要選擇保密不能夠公布給社會大眾知道而且其實就是公開透明嘛你今天先做了一個報告之後公開給全國的這個勞工能夠了解然後呢"},{"start":9658.321,"end":9682.538,"text":"從這個數據那跟這樣的一個論理那可以了解到說到底啊我們究竟現在所面對的各項的參考包括剛剛提到的這個CPI也好或是說其他的參考的數據跟指標那就是應該要在這個會議召開前然後你就放在這個勞動部的官網然後報告公開透明公人民監督跟檢視"},{"start":9690.123,"end":9706.375,"text":"副總長我想考慮到整個機制的設計研究小組他現在有一個研究小組六四嘛那這個研究小組做什麼事情他每四個月要提出一個研究報告而且審議小組要開會前三十天他要拿出來"},{"start":9707.456,"end":9725.084,"text":"這坦白講就是在整個技術設計上研究小組的報告並不是最後的答案有點像專家默聊或是提供他們比較詳細的看法所以在整個審議小組還沒開以前你把研究小組這個報告拿出來會誤以為這個是終極答案這樣很麻煩"},{"start":9730.726,"end":9750.415,"text":"那研究小組就照研究小組就好了嘛所以包括我們立法院也有一些什麼報告,但都不是專注於答案其實它只是一個專業目標,而且比較專業在處理所以差一點只是在說研究小組報告先提出來"},{"start":9751.462,"end":9770.737,"text":"那外面說 人家說 這個當然有很不同的看法嘛所以我是覺得比較慎重應該是照行政院版本啦你如果想要報告先拿出來坦白講對於整個不是很實際的也不好好 照行政院版本你有沒有意見有意見喔 這個沒辦法接受啦因為聽不出一個理由來"},{"start":9771.658,"end":9792.074,"text":"本來就是一個民主社會那你丟出一個研究報告說這樣就會就會有什麼樣的這個結果那你丟出來之後還是有很多的辯證或不同的意見我聽不出你在反對的理由不是啊你丟了一個報告為什麼一定要保密保密的理由是什麼我真的沒想到但是我確實沒有辦法理解你反對的理由"},{"start":9793.735,"end":9810.065,"text":"我尊重你的想法,但是我認為本來公開透明就是最基本的啊好,尊重招募、建立保留,那我們就保留好,請看下一條,就是第...第...我們有一個16條16之一啦美國的問題啦"},{"start":9818.45,"end":9823.413,"text":"最低工資法應該要明文規定說這種廠商連最低工資法都不願意去遵守的情況之下那這個是一個最低的標準"},{"start":9844.443,"end":9861.161,"text":"那也能夠就是說這些違法的廠商應該要列入政府採購的這個黑名單裡面沒得立功他連最低工資法他都不願意遵守連最起碼的這個勞工的最低工資他都不願意給付的情況之下"},{"start":9862.121,"end":9887.391,"text":"政府的採購還讓他來參加來做政府的生意所以我們是希望說給勞工最低工資以上的工作報酬應該是一個法律明文賦予雇主最起碼的義務那也是我們今天在這邊定這個最低工資法的真正的意義所在那對於這個沒有給勞工最低工資的這些企業的大老闆"},{"start":9888.371,"end":9888.551,"text":"主席"},{"start":9918.898,"end":9921.66,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9938.541,"end":9939.281,"text":"法規範在談什麼 我們把法規範的範圍談清楚"},{"start":9968.911,"end":9984.548,"text":"反正在談政府採購的時候,他就有政府採購法來而且政府採購法對委員長商齁,其實重大事本來就可以得停權的,就可以停權那採購法一零一一零一一二一零三都規範很清楚"},{"start":9985.149,"end":10000.266,"text":"所以我們在談這個不合最低工資和另外規範採購法是不一樣的東西本來那邊就規範得很清楚所以我是覺得我們要了解說那你這個法是要做什麼"},{"start":10001.027,"end":10018.876,"text":"那反正一公司,那你在這裡加這個以後,我可以加配合法規範下來所以我們要把我們現在這個邏輯先大家先談清楚基本上我是覺得這種財富法本來就規定很清楚,你把整個財富法都要規定尤其一零一是個停牌的"},{"start":10021.001,"end":10042.402,"text":"好 那就委員長補充一下因為這個柯總召剛剛講說政府採購法101條這個103條等等有相關的規定當然有規定啊現在要討論的是說那最低工資法如果違反的話那你是不是要讓它列為這個政府採購的拒絕往來戶嘛因為你 因為"},{"start":10043.362,"end":10064.927,"text":"你要讓我講啊那你政府採購法裡面當然有相當規定比如說他用藉用本人的名義或者是說擅自偷工減料等等之類的你不要讓他做政府的生意嘛那同樣的在這個地方其實其他三黨包括剛剛討論的其他三個黨團基本上是有共識的只有民進黨團跟勞動部沒有共識捏"},{"start":10067.267,"end":10083.973,"text":"有一些的法案基本上,像這樣的提案基本上是可以讓政府可以宣示說你真的要給這些企業一個訊息這個訊息就是非常簡單而且這也很基本的就是你要遵守最低工資法的規定"},{"start":10085.774,"end":10103.172,"text":"這是一個很卑微的要求那一方面如果是說他連最低工資都不願意給這個勞工你一方面又讓他來投標政府的這個採購然後透過這個可以來賺政府的錢的話然後跟政府可以因此而獲益的話這是大家所不能夠接受的嘛"},{"start":10103.692,"end":10115.912,"text":"所以我也看不出來說這到底反對的理由是什麼啦那我坦白講今天如果說這是一個對這個勞工也是有幫助的法案的話我真的看不出來說為什麼要反對"},{"start":10119.635,"end":10119.775,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":10144.725,"end":10168.031,"text":"剛剛談到柯總長講說那這個也要那個也要齁現在在政府採購法101條裡面其實只有對性別歧視、原住民身心障礙或弱視人權團體歧視這部分有入所謂的拒絕採購的權益啦嚴重違反政府採購法對啦但是那要情節重大對要情節重大所以過去我們地方政府只有把性別歧視的案件"},{"start":10168.991,"end":10187.616,"text":"列轉做採購的這個直接資訊給公共工程採購委員會的小組資訊所以我說如果我們在這裡要套用101其實是比較難去直接引用應該是在我們的最低工資法裡面直接定法會比較好"},{"start":10193.517,"end":10216.703,"text":"對阿,只有14款是對於我剛剛講勞動裡面的性別平均沒有阿,你這樣假如說我們採購法是11款就可以頂的阿哪有,你這個包括冒用這些等等都不是勞動法違規嘛現在在講違反勞基法不行阿違反新民法有阿,違反救護法不行阿我是在講這個阿我講說,正如採購法裡面有規範得很清楚你最低工資法算是勞動法"},{"start":10219.123,"end":10235.669,"text":"那你認為違反這個最低工資．沒有幾戶最低工資．算不算是違反勞動法令情節重大?你怎麼說?對啊,好,勞動部回答我不要叫你小姐啦請許副長現在只是說想要把它定清楚啊"},{"start":10237.264,"end":10238.085,"text":"我其實覺得可能要看個案的狀況"},{"start":10261.372,"end":10261.833,"text":"民進黨團提議．　　（國民黨團提議．"},{"start":10278.831,"end":10302.671,"text":"　　　　　　"},{"start":10302.771,"end":10303.011,"text":"民進黨團提議．　　（民進黨團提議．"},{"start":10317.828,"end":10345.822,"text":"為什麼這個政府採購法因為畢竟政府採購法就是工程會的他們的權責為什麼它在法令的設計是這樣的一個條文他們一定有充分的考量所以這一題其實你們提案工程會的意見是認為說其實在原有的法規範已經有了他們認為不需要在這邊訂定但是你說個案的情況當然要具體去審酌情節重大我想我們都念法律也不是沒有辦法在這邊做"},{"start":10348.368,"end":10348.608,"text":"主席 各位委員"},{"start":10372.423,"end":10395.446,"text":"主席各位委員大家好那工程會這邊大概就採購法的機制做一個補充給各位委員做參考齁那採購法裡面大概在選商我分兩個階段在選商的階段呢在這些勞動有違反的這些情況他在選商又過評選他就可以做初步的一個篩選在評分體制裡面優先去避免齁我想這是第一個在選商那不管他用什麼樣的決標方式他進到了履約階段之後"},{"start":10396.567,"end":10419.602,"text":"其實就像剛剛部長所提的這個情節重大是在履約階段他違反我們在我們的契約範本裡面都寫得很清楚了他必須要符合勞動基準法的最低工資還有違反情節重大的時候他會走到終止契約然後會連結到101所以採購法本身他在他的停權是根據採購的公平合理每個法令有他的一個規範範圍所以並不是說今天違反"},{"start":10422.686,"end":10439.799,"text":"最低工資法就沒有法則而是說他在這邊有一個法則那在我們這邊會透過這樣一個聯動所以我們剛剛部長才會提到說採購法裡面的機制不管你在評選前不知道你在招商階段或是你在履歷階段我們有一些聯動可以帶到對情結重大的會帶到這個部分來讓他做一個聽權避免影響"},{"start":10441.22,"end":10460.575,"text":"就是說契約範本嘛 對不對透過契約範本去處理嘛那為什麼我們要把它定在這邊其實就非常清楚嘛契約範本的效率不如法律的明定 對不對那所以你如果是說你法律沒有去明定的情況之下範本的內容可能因為個案的情況去修改嘛"},{"start":10461.375,"end":10484.46,"text":"其實你要做的其實就非常簡單大家也都認為說你連一個最低工資你連一個最低工資都不願意給付不然你剛才講的那不是一個理由本來他的契約範本裡面其實工程會的他裡面就有規定說你連最低工資都不願意給付那基本上你就會被認為是情節重大"},{"start":10484.94,"end":10503.455,"text":"你不是最低工資的?兩萬多塊你都沒給人啊!對不對?哪怕是差一百塊他還是會認為說這是情節重招只是說他把它放在契約的規範的範本裡面啦那我們現在差異是在哪裡?你是不是可以把它放在這一個法律的規範裡面?合一!你們"},{"start":10506.797,"end":10527.722,"text":"你剛剛那個想法基本上是很替他著想嘛他沒有做政府的生意其實我們就是政府給他一個訊息就是你要照顧勞工就這麼清楚你如果沒有照顧勞工的話我不可能一邊讓你連最低工資都不給的情況之下我一邊還讓你做政府的生意就是這個訊息"},{"start":10529.025,"end":10547.73,"text":"那至於他會不會倒那是他自己要考量的他可以去做其他的民間的生意但是我們的國家是一個示範性的作用我們的規範定下去就是某種程度也是釋放一個訊息嘛這個訊息就是你不要把這個最低工資法當塑膠啊"},{"start":10548.57,"end":10575.622,"text":"那它的規範裡面現在已經有一個契約範本現在差異只是在說你要不要把它定在法規範裡面讓它有一個法律效果那個法律效果就是它不能夠投標政府的這個工程標案好 因為這個沒有共識我們就也是保留好不好好 那我將今天的協商結論跟大家報告一下讓大家看如果要修改的話再提出來那我先唸一遍"},{"start":10577.94,"end":10592.588,"text":"今天協商主題一、社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告並案審查行政院函請審議時代力量黨團委員江榮昌等17人委員徐志榮等25人"},{"start":10594.21,"end":10615.087,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團委員範玲等十七人（委員蔣萬恩等十八人（委員吳玉琴等十八人（委員林惠珠等十六人（委員廖國棟等十六人（委員楊瓊英等十八人（及委員張玉美等十六人（分別離去最低工資法草案案二、進戶惡毒有六案（"},{"start":10616.092,"end":10633.165,"text":"委員施志峰等17人委員莊進成等21人委員李坤佐等19人委員賴若榮等16人委員劉建國等16人委員王美惠等24人分別離去最低工資法草案案協商結論"},{"start":10636.249,"end":10653.735,"text":"學商通過條文第13條如附件二、照行政院提案通過第一條、第三條、第四條、第五條、第十條、第十六條及第十七條三、不予採納的由委員吳裕勤等18人提案第11條四、保留送院會處理"},{"start":10655.503,"end":10679.595,"text":"國務一．第七條．第九條．第十二條國務二．委員江永昌等十七人提案．第二十條．委員習志鴻等二十五人．委員林惠洲等十六人提案．第十五條．委員范寧等十七人．時代力量黨團提案．第十六條．委員蔣萬安等十八人．委員廖國棟等十六人．提案．第十七條"},{"start":10680.875,"end":10708.359,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第十四條五、區域經照審查會審查結果通過六、條次及嚴肅條次授權醫事人員調整七、檢護扁案立法說明一份八、臺灣民眾黨黨團附帶決議一項保留送院會處理九、扁案院會進行處理時協商通過部分宣讀後均予以通過保留"},{"start":10709.179,"end":10719.382,"text":"部份均暫保留．保留部份院會進行處理前．由各黨團推派議員．依時代力量黨團、臺灣民眾黨黨團．國民黨黨團、民進黨黨團順序倫理發言．免發言時間為三分鐘．發言完畢後．各該保留部份均不再發言．並依上開黨團順序進行各保留條文．黨團版本之處理"},{"start":10734.046,"end":10741.708,"text":"看有沒有意見 沒意見還有那個下個禮拜一就開始那個密集那個總預算協商兩點半了 兩點半了"},{"start":10760.863,"end":10773.202,"text":"我跟大家報告一下下禮拜一下午兩點半就開始進行預算總共預算都密集協商請各黨團播出保護時間來參加"},{"start":10784.248,"end":10798.671,"text":"還有一個還沒有協商完成的法案如果看大家的意見 各黨團都可以提出來我們可以調整時間 就只要大家提出來然後大家有公訴 我們去調整時間來加以協商"},{"start":10962.773,"end":10973.25,"text":"好 那有關於協商結論我們就繼續簽署那今天的會議就到此告一段落謝謝大家 散會"}]}},{"id":"148927","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148927","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c04c8fae6af28eaee145de4c744a3d84f2dc986728e607a0322d83dd2eb1f7004fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李德維","委員發言時間":"11:00:05 - 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- 11:26:35","影片長度":"00:12:27","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查時代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員張其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員王美惠等22人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-12"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":747,"end_time":"2023-12-07T11:26:35+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T11:14:08+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":680,"blocks":[["賴委員品妤：（11時14分）謝謝主席，有請海委會周副主委。"],["主席：請海委會周副主委。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員好。"],["賴委員品妤：副主委好。今天我們剛好要審查大陸礁層法有關抽砂船條款的部分，副主委也是我們海巡署的長官嘛，所以我想藉這個機會來請教幾個問題。第一個，根據報導我想副主委也知道11月30號的時候我們有發生一件事情，是什麼？就是有個中國級的拖船，大概是一千多噸的大船，進到我們墾丁貓鼻頭的海域聲稱說要避風，而且進到了我們24浬的限制水域，我們海巡官兵用30噸的小艇去驅離，這個任務實務上難度是蠻高的啦！副主委，雖然這一次的任務有圓滿成功，可是我想請教一下，針對這些民用的船隻，海巡署艦隊、分署這邊的人力、船隻調度，目前到底有沒有辦法去好好的應付這些挑戰？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，謝謝委員的關切，跟委員做一個報告，針對目前臺灣周遭的海域，凡是未應核准的，不管是大陸公務船舶或者是一般的這些船舶，如果沒有經過核准，他們是不得靠近我們24浬以內的。這一次的事件在很遠的一個距離我們就已經掌握，只要它一進入的時候，因為我們是地點跟海巡隊配置的位置有關，我們是恆春海巡隊，所以它在鵝鑾鼻的下面的西南角，我們很快第一時間就從恆春海巡隊派船出去做攔截，同時告知不得靠近我們的禁限制水域，而當時它也都聽從我們的驅離，然後就逐漸的向24浬外航離。這期間就我們本身的執法的量能，跟過去執法的經驗，目前執行起來都沒有困難。"],["賴委員品妤：所以人力目前是還好，因為我看海巡目前狀況有很多的船還在造嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["賴委員品妤：有3,000噸的、有1,000噸的，我想總不能到時候有船但是沒有人可以操作，所以我們人力是OK的？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，目前行政院都有逐年按照我們造艦的進度，核給人力的員額，我們也按照這樣子的員額，去向譬如警察大學、警專跟其他經由專業特考進來的人員逐年來進用。"],["賴委員品妤：好，針對這個我就要繼續問幾個問題，第一個，基本上這幾年我們可以看到一個事實，就是中國的民用船隻他們一直嘗試去越界，一開始可能是海峽中線經濟水域，再來就是我們鄰接區也就是24浬的限制水域。前2天其實我們看到有臺大政治系專精在海洋法的學者提出，接下來中國政府搞不好會用各種理由，用民用船隻入侵的方式來測試我們領海執法的量能。也就是說它今天跑進24浬，在線上繞來繞去，看你好像拿它沒有辦法，只能廣播要他離開，會不會過2天它趁風浪大、噸位大跑進23、22浬越來越近，最後跑到領海裡，又或者說它就在高雄港、基隆港，甚至是蘇澳、左營對外航道，卡在這個鄰接區的邊界上去阻礙我們船隻往來，這個都是也許未來會發生的事情嘛！","針對這樣子的問題，海委會作為海洋的主管機關，因為剛才副主委這邊回答的是你們實際上到底怎麼處理，那我想問，像我剛講的，這個也不是只有我講，學者也提出警告，針對這種狀況你們目前有沒有腹案？就是說如果中國的民用船隻未經許可到24浬鄰接區、12浬領海時，海巡這邊要怎麼做？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，跟委員做回報，事實上海委會在每一季都跟國防部有高層的會談，我們每一次都會針對臺灣整個海域目標的狀況，跟其他可能造成臺灣海域安全的問題，都會做廣泛的討論。期間聯合情監偵也是其中我們討論的項目之一，針對所有的目標，因為海軍有比較高山的雷達站，它能夠掌握整個峽北到峽南所有的目標的狀況及從遠而近的目標，他們會情傳給我們海巡署的雷達站，海巡署的執檢站或安檢所掌握到之後，海巡隊或者相關的單位，在獲知它即將進入24浬的時候，就會派遣預置的船隻到那個位置點上阻止它不進來。"],["賴委員品妤：聽起來副主委這個說法，其實海委會這邊也是有腹案的嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：是、是。"],["賴委員品妤：那就看現行法上……我一個建議啦！針對這種灰色地帶處理，我們要怎麼適度的去把它公告出來因為現在你是在詢答的時候回答我，但我會建議說，是不是這些東西，其實你應該要擬一個辦法適度的公告出來，作為一種嚇阻的手段。因為我覺得這同時其實也是讓人家、讓對方能夠警覺，表示我們並不是完全沒有在處理，沒有作為啦。"],["周副主任委員美伍：瞭解。"],["賴委員品妤：我提一個建議，關於這個部分，是不是請海委會做一個書面報告，第一個，先把你們手上有的腹案送來內政委員會這邊，裡面要有什麼？第一，海巡單位目前怎麼處理民用船隻入侵的問題。第二，在這些處理上面，你們國際法上面的依據是什麼？另外，我也想要看到一個比較，就是說，其他的國家遇到這種事情如何處理？以及未來打算怎麼去跟海軍，還有國安單位做協調？這部分的書面報告，可不可以三個禮拜之內給我？"],["周副主任委員美伍：可以，沒問題。"],["賴委員品妤：好。再來，我也要再繼續詢問有關馬祖抽砂船的問題，因為今天剛好幾個相關的部會都在，我覺得我就一併討論啦，第一個，今年年中看到媒體報導，指出馬祖海域的中國抽砂船真的是越來越猖獗，事實上，包含洪申翰委員、李問主委其實一直都有召開記者會在講這件事情，很多人也都有看到，但是目前的狀況是海巡受限於人力，數量上可能相對的不足，而且其實在處理這種狀況上，對海巡來說算是一個比較新的業務啦，我們大型的船隻也不可能長期都進駐在馬祖嘛，所以事實上，如果你要主動去查緝，它可能是有一點難度的。所以針對這個問題，我也想要請問海巡署這邊有沒有規劃派更多的人力跟船隻去馬祖長駐做查緝？"],["周副主任委員美伍：跟委員報告，其實馬祖地區就像委員所提到的，抽砂船猖獗的問題在這一、兩年確實比前幾年改善了很多，為什麼？因為經過立法院立了專經法跟土海法，將它加重罰則之後，以及我們強力執法之後，我以去年為例，去年全年我們在馬祖地區驅離的抽砂船有109艘，其中我們扣留了一艘，就是今年判決沒收的這一艘，我們拍賣了688萬，好像大概這個價錢。"],["賴委員品妤：是，我有看到。"],["周副主任委員美伍：今年一直到今天為止，整個馬祖地區我們驅離的抽砂船大概只有7艘，所以那個數量是降低了很多，這表示我們現在強力執法跟目前的作法是確實有效的。"],["賴委員品妤：我有看到你們是用一個快打部隊啦，不過……"],["周副主任委員美伍：另外跟您報告，就是我們都會在重點的期間，會由臺灣相關的單位，就是我們海巡相關單位派遣人力去補充人力上之不足，同時調派大艦到馬祖地區。"],["賴委員品妤：請問一下，目前這個快打部隊開始之後，抓了多少抽砂船？目前大概抓了多少？"],["周副主任委員美伍：不只是抽砂船，包括違法越境的，像今年在馬祖地區，我們現在扣押在岸的，就是留置在我們看守單位的，馬祖地區大概有二十幾員，船隻也扣，但陸陸續續對他們罰鍰之後，我們依據相關的法令跟地方檢察官起訴完了之後，法院判定之後，罰鍰付完之後，或者是服刑完畢之後，我們就會把他們原船跟人遣返，這種越界的漁船是這樣子處置的。"],["賴委員品妤：但也會有沒入的狀況吧？"],["周副主任委員美伍：看他有沒有犯罪的行為，如果有犯罪的行為，法官如果判定沒入，我們就直接執行沒入。"],["賴委員品妤：對，因為我想問一個問題，這也是衍生的問題，因為事實上，馬祖港口的泊位也有限啦，沒入之後的拍賣也未必是很快能夠搞定啦。就是說，就算今天你很順利都把這些抽砂船抓起來了，有沒有考慮，因為這個事實上也是有人在建議，就是說有沒有考慮在競拍幾次未果之後，也許去跟漁業署合作，把這些漁船做另外的用途，或者是跟海軍合作做其他的用途。"],["周副主任委員美伍：可以。"],["賴委員品妤：這個是有辦法的嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：有，報告委員，這個都已經在做了，目前因為我們跟地方法院，還有相關單位，為了加速去化，現在已經同意我們在起訴的同時，就可以向國防部跟農業部取得聯繫，看他們要不要有其他的用途……"],["賴委員品妤：後續要怎麼處理？譬如說做靶船或是……"],["周副主任委員美伍：做靶船或者是人工魚礁，相關的這些都可以。"],["賴委員品妤：最後一個問題也想要問副主委這邊啦，其實如果今天你要處理這個問題，說到底還是希望可以正本清源啦，所以我想要問的是，目前臺海之間有什麼執法扣船或者返還的規範？目前就你們所掌握的，中國那邊對於這些非法越界的抽砂船，他們的態度到底是放任不管，還是說在某一些特定的情況之下，中國自己也會抓？因為到底要怎麼去建立一個機制，讓這些抽砂船從源頭就減少越界，這其實是很重要的一件事情。"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒錯，委員，其實現在在金馬地區，我們都有一個兩岸協同執法，目前執行的狀況都非常的順遂，我們在律定特定的時間，譬如說黃花魚季，或者是近期有一些不安全的因素提高的時候，我們會跟對岸的執法單位共同協派兵力，他們在他們的執法水域，我們在我們的執法水域共同來執法。目前我們執行的狀況都非常順遂，對於有效來防止這些，不管是不法抽砂或者是越界捕魚，或者進行其他走私、偷渡行為，都有嚇阻的作用。"],["賴委員品妤：所以就是回到前面啦，因為時間到了，我就回到前面，也提醒一下副主委，就是剛才講的那個書面報告，應該要包含我們到底要怎麼去處理民用船隻入侵的問題，還有法理上的依據是什麼，以及其他國家是怎麼處理的，還有你怎麼跟其他單位，如：海軍、國安單位協調，這個部分就麻煩你們三週之內給我報告，謝謝副主委。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，一定，謝謝委員關心。"],["主席：登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員林文瑞所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-12","speakers":["羅美玲","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","陳琬惠","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","李德維","張宏陸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","高金素梅","黃世杰","賴品妤","林文瑞"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-07"],"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00002","1129702_00003","1129702_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬\n經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國\n專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案；二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)\n審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查時\n代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員張\n其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)繼\n續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)繼續審查委\n員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員蔡\n易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員\n羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員王美惠等22\n人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲\n彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管\n制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍\n砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案","agenda_id":"1129702_00001"}}},{"id":"148925","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148925","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c041c49ee666e9451ca4f73b9825177cacbc986728e607a03222b572682c7da76a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃世杰","委員發言時間":"11:04:46 - 11:13:50","影片長度":"00:09:04","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查時代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員張其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員王美惠等22人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-12"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":544,"end_time":"2023-12-07T11:13:50+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T11:04:46+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":652,"blocks":[["黃委員世杰：（11時4分）好，謝謝主席，我們請警政署黃署長。"],["主席：有請黃署長。"],["黃署長明昭：委員好。"],["黃委員世杰：署長好。我想今天先談跟我們員警執勤有關的問題，我們知道警政署事實上都經常有在關注員警執勤的時候自我保護的問題，我也看到你們有一個112年的員警創傷急救訓練計畫，這個也都實行的很澈底，所以大家都有學相關的急救，包含止血、CPR還有AED等等的這些東西，不但防護員警自身，執勤的過程中也能夠來幫助我們的民眾。我們也看到新聞有報導現在有些員警他有自備所謂的止血帶，也就是說用這個止血帶，他不但可以幫助自己、幫助同仁，甚至也協助他在執勤的時候遇到的民眾，因為我們知道警察執勤事實上風險相當的高，經常都有受傷的可能性。","但是我去查了一下，好像目前這個止血帶的裝備，雖然在很多的國家有列為配備給員警的標準配備，但是在我們現在警察勤務機具的配備標準裡面是沒有止血帶的配發。我想請教署長，因為這個東西雖小，但是在緊急的狀況，特別是在員警這種高風險的執勤過程中，它是可以帶來很大的幫助，特別是你們又已經有施加相關的訓練，我們員警的操作都很熟悉，也不乏員警都會自備，以備不時之需，我想請教署長是不是可以考慮把止血帶也列為標準的配備之一？"],["黃署長明昭：好，謝謝委員的提醒，我想這個我們值得來推動，因為地方制度法的財政收支劃分，我想地方政府要編列這個預算，我們會推動到地方警察局那邊來爭取這個預算，真的不夠的話，我們在中央這邊再籌經費來浥注。"],["黃委員世杰：政策上我是希望你們主動一點去推動，不要每次要增加什麼東西都說地方經費不夠，因為這個其實小東西，但是效益很高，至少你要讓員警如果自己有需要的話，他可以跟你們申請，這也是一個方法，看是要列為標準配備或是怎麼樣，因為這個在緊急的狀況底下確實發揮很大的功能，所以希望你們列入政策的方向來做推動。"],["黃署長明昭：好。"],["黃委員世杰：另外，還要跟署長來探討一個問題，因為不只是這半年，今年甚至長年以來，特別這兩年各地方政府還有民眾反映噪音的問題，也就是說機動車輛，特別是改裝的摩托車或是汽車，在深夜或是下午造成地方安寧的困擾，我想很多地方政府都有提出來，而且在各個地方政府的議會裡面也都成為很大話題。但是我們卻看到反映到中央行政院來之後，到底由誰主管這件事情？好像交通部跟警政署還有環境部事實上是有一些爭執。監察院上個月有提出一個調查報告，我想也有函復，你們也有回文，我看到這個調查報告的時候滿訝異的，警政署回復的方向大概就是跟交通部立場一致，認為說這個不屬於道交條例單純就可以來執法，應該要由噪音管制法下手。","但是我們知道在基層事實上執法的量能兩者之間是不能相提並論，也就是說當今天民眾在深夜或者是在生活中遇到這個情境的時候，他第一個找誰？當然是找警察嘛！對不對？結果警察到現場跟他講說這個於法不符，不能開單，我覺得這個態度民眾沒有辦法接受。我卻沒有看到監察院在調查的時候，警政署是積極地去爭取說應該要讓第一線的警察同仁可以幫忙民眾來解決這個問題，署長。"],["黃署長明昭：謝謝委員，我想尤其夜間改裝車輛的噪音擾民，引起很大的一個民怨，我也要求我們各縣市警察局在夜間稽查的時候，針對有改裝的部分要開單子叫他去監理單位做一個檢驗，並跟環保單位去測噪音，這些都有要求。當然這個量能的部分，確實面很廣、真的面很廣，整個警察單位有結合監理單位跟環保單位定期在做實施啦，但是這個真的如我剛剛講的，量能是不夠的。"],["黃委員世杰：不是啦，他都是去驗車的時候裝合格的嘛！"],["黃署長明昭：對，就換回來。"],["黃委員世杰：然後驗回來後就換成違規的嘛！"],["黃署長明昭：對，常常有這種情形啦！"],["黃委員世杰：所以你從那邊下手意義不大嘛，因為現在改裝的技術又越來越精良，然後相關的配備又很容易取得，對不對？事實上還是你在末端能夠抓到，才能夠有效的立刻禁止他，為什麼會去爭執說要不要用道交條例的第四十三條？因為你可以當場禁止他駕駛，這個法律效果不同，噪音那邊只是開罰單而已，然後叫他一直去驗，他每次去驗都會過啊，所以那個沒有意義啦！現在是你可以當場禁止他駕駛，甚至如果1年內再度抓到的話，還可以吊扣駕駛執照6個月，這個對於行為人來講，才有真正嚇阻的作用。結果我們現在看到交通部跟警政署，我們道交執法的機關，一直在講這一條是針對飆車，事實上從條文根本看不出來有這個意思。當然我知道始作俑者是交通部105年的函釋，但是我希望警政署這邊要拿出一個態度來，因為你要解決第一線員警的問題。為什麼？因為員警他在第一線承受民眾的怨言，結果你們明明有一個武器可以去執法，能當場就給他一個嚇阻，但是你們卻退縮不前，我覺得這樣子民眾也是不能接受。當然監察院跟立法院這邊都會要求交通部要重新檢討這一條解釋的方向，可是我們希望內部你們在討論的時候應該也要來爭取，就算不用這一條，我去查了社維法，如果深夜噪音也有6,000塊可以罰……"],["黃署長明昭：擾亂安寧。"],["黃委員世杰：但是如果只是罰錢可能還不夠，最重要是要制止他駕駛這個行為，甚至要能夠配合記點，我想才能夠真正有效的遏止這個行為。而要能夠處理這個，用環保的稽查，我想只要在第一線、在地方政府處理過實際執行的就知道環保的稽查絕對緩不濟急，它也不可能有這麼密的執法量能啦，所以還是要請警政署這邊，既然你也是相關的主管機關之一，還是要拿出魄力儘量來爭取用這個方式，才能遏止這樣的行為，好，謝謝。"],["黃署長明昭：好，我們會規劃勤務，尤其投票選舉完後，那個勤務會來執行。"],["黃委員世杰：什麼東西？"],["黃署長明昭：就明年元月13號投完票之後，因為現在的警力大概在選舉安全方面會比較投入，等投完票以後會規劃一個執行的勤務。"],["黃委員世杰：我想這個也不要跟選舉扯上關係……"],["黃署長明昭：當然。"],["黃委員世杰：因為你講的可能是譬如說針對飆車的行為，可能需要大量的警力來去做圍捕或是抓捕的動作，平常檢舉這些日常的勤務其實都在處理，所以現在你們就可以去做，而且希望你們在法令解釋的態度上面要做一個調整，不要這麼被動，以上，謝謝。"],["黃署長明昭：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃世杰委員。","接下來請賴品妤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-12","speakers":["羅美玲","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","陳琬惠","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","李德維","張宏陸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","高金素梅","黃世杰","賴品妤","林文瑞"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-07"],"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00002","1129702_00003","1129702_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬\n經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國\n專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案；二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)\n審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查時\n代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員張\n其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)繼\n續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)繼續審查委\n員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員蔡\n易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員\n羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員王美惠等22\n人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲\n彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管\n制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍\n砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案","agenda_id":"1129702_00001"}}},{"id":"148924","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148924","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c045382c908ddd340b04f73b9825177cacbc986728e607a0322686bf1ce6383841d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:53:59 - 11:04:27","影片長度":"00:10:28","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查時代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員張其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員王美惠等22人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-12"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":628,"end_time":"2023-12-07T11:04:27+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T10:53:59+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":605,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時54分）謝謝主席。部長已經離開了嗎？"],["主席：對，請假。"],["高金委員素梅：不好意思，那我們就請署長。"],["主席：警政署黃署長嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：對，黃署長。"],["主席：OK，好。"],["高金委員素梅：署長你好，對原住民漁民自製獵槍魚槍許可及管理辦法草案還沒有一個定案之前，你們又提出了槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案，其實本席對於第五條之二、第五條之三是有意見的。尤其是第五條之二，你寫「前項自製獵槍繼用人，以享有法定繼承權人之一人為限。但未成年人或無行為能力者，不得申請繼續持有。」你知道原住民的文化跟未成年是沒有關聯的嗎？所以這一條我今天不跟你討論，但逐條的時候我會跟你說。然後第五條之三，如果是槍砲彈藥審認爭議的時候，你們要遴聘這些專家學者，然後是由中央主管機關定之。想請問一下，這些人是誰？"],["黃署長明昭：專家學者大概針對槍砲有專業的。"],["高金委員素梅：那原住民族呢？"],["黃署長明昭：也會，我們在辦法裡面有把他納進來，我們會納進原住民的。"],["高金委員素梅：所以你的辦法出來了沒有？"],["黃署長明昭：還沒，通過以後我們才會訂定辦法。"],["高金委員素梅：你的意思是說修正通過之後你會訂定辦法？"],["黃署長明昭：是。"],["高金委員素梅：所以在修正之前我們就要知道你的辦法是什麼，希望你在修正之前把辦法先提出來，讓我們看到，否則不會讓你修正通過的，好不好？謝謝。","另外請國防部也上來一下，還有原民會。我要請教國防部，我不曉得國防部109年5月15號內政委員會在協商槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例的時候，你們在不在？您在嗎？"],["李副處長昌富：我本人不在。"],["高金委員素梅：什麼？"],["李副處長昌富：我本人不在。"],["高金委員素梅：請你大聲一點好不好？"],["李副處長昌富：我本人不在。"],["高金委員素梅：好，你本人不在。軍人要有軍人的樣子，好嗎？"],["李副處長昌富：是。"],["高金委員素梅：你不在，我就提醒你一下，109年5月15號槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條第三項，高金素梅、鄭天財委員還有其他原住民立委在現場據以力爭，力爭什麼？我們希望槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條第三項納入國防部，因此國防部納進來了，您看到條文了沒有？"],["李副處長昌富：有的。"],["高金委員素梅：好。因為有了第二十條第三項的規定，才會有原住民自製魚槍獵槍許可及管理辦法草案。這個草案您看過了嗎？"],["李副處長昌富：這個草案我看過了。"],["高金委員素梅：您看過了，您的責任是什麼？"],["李副處長昌富：我想應該主要是安全的問題。"],["高金委員素梅：不是，我唸給您聽。","第一條，本辦法依槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例（以下簡稱本條例）第二十條第三項規定訂定之。這是第一條開宗明義。","第二條，本辦法所定事項，由中央主管機關、中央原住民族主管機關及國防部就其權責範圍主動規劃、推動執行以及監督相關措施，並且應該全力配合，確實保障原住民得安全從事合法狩獵活動。權責如下：一、中央主管機關（也就是警政署）負責管理政策、法規及方案的研究、規劃、訂定、執行及解釋，並且統籌輔導相關申請事宜。二、國防部要負責原住民自製獵槍主要組成零件的研製、選購、輔導、組合，包括組裝，並且協助相關安全使用訓練事宜。中央原民會做什麼呢？它要負責原住民自製獵槍安全使用訓練規劃、訂定、計畫與執行，並且協助相關申請跟管理事宜。請問一下原民會今天出席的代表，處長，原住民在這個法規沒有產生之前，我們有沒有自製獵槍了？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：報告委員，有。"],["高金委員素梅：好。這個自製獵槍是不是現在都依法可以申請？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好。現在唯一的問題就是在於原住民在做這些零組件組合的時候，都是依照祖先傳承下來的智慧，並沒有軍人所謂國防部裡面的體系，我們稱聯勤兵工來協助我們，因此有非常多爆炸，以及傷到自己或有危及生命安全的作為，對不對？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：是，目前的狀況確實都是自己製造的。"],["高金委員素梅：因此請國防部告訴我，管理辦法裡面有講到您必須要研製，可是在你的管理辦法草案裡面，國防部除了第二條第二項有講你的權責，裡面全部都沒有耶！國防部在這裡面是沒有角色的耶！你好像對這件事情已經不在法規裡頭了耶！所以本席今天要求國防部、也要求行政院，因為我知道這個條例新增是依照111年5月3號行政院召開業務分工的會議，核定這個辦法的業務分工原則是行政院喔！你們居然不管行政院告訴你必須要研發、研製，然後你就一直告訴族人說，第一個，你現在合法的獵槍，你可以擁有，但是兩年以後你就不可以再自製了；然後警政署這個管理辦法一直告訴我們說我們要進口獵槍，然後告訴我們這個獵槍的價錢是1萬5,000到4萬，不僅僅這樣喔！還有什麼呢？還有請領執照的費用喔！還有什麼呢？要指定集體保管，然後又個別保管，集體保管又幹嘛呢？集體保管又要找一個有符合安全規範的水泥房。請問一下原民會的處長，原住民地區有那麼多合法的水泥庫房可以來集中保管我們的槍枝嗎？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：據瞭解目前應該是沒有。"],["高金委員素梅：所以嘛！我們有沒有看到我們的政府在制定法令的時候，根本沒有依照法令的精神來制定規範，你們就用你們自己的想像，根本也是找不到一個合法的土地，然後大家還非常辛苦辦理了8場地方的座談會，本席也參加了，裡面談一些小細節的問題，大方向的問題都不去討論，我覺得我們的政府是這樣子做事情的嗎？我們的政府是這樣子來推卸責任，然後來告訴原住民族什麼叫做獵人、什麼叫做尊重文化、什麼叫做轉型正義嗎？不可以這樣欺負原住民！","所以在這裡本席要針對三個部會，第一、警政署，第二、國防部，第三、原民會，請你們重新再討論這個管理辦法，依照111年5月3號行政院召開的業務分工會議，核定辦法的業務有三個權責，請你們分別回去制定你們自己應該做什麼業務分工，不是只有唯一的一條路就是從外面進口，我發現如果從外面進口，你們好像又要製造另外一條路，讓有錢的、可以拿到執照的這些人又繼續有錢，又要圖利某些人！我覺得民進黨政府不可以再這樣子用原住民獵人的安全，再罔顧原住民獵人的生命財產。以上，我的質詢時間到了，我希望你們這三個單位在選舉之前到我的辦公室裡面來回答我今天的質詢，因為時間不夠，除非署長你要再回答、國防部你要回答、原民會你要回答，要回答嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：謝謝委員，剛剛委員的要求我們會找時間跟委員這邊做報告。"],["高金委員素梅：什麼時候？"],["黃署長明昭：看委員的時間。"],["高金委員素梅：好，歡迎你們在選舉之前，因為選舉之前我必須在這邊告訴我的族人，不要再被某些人騙了！告訴你說漁民、原住民的自製獵槍、魚槍，我們已經有管理辦法了，但是這個管理辦法卻不是依照槍砲彈藥管制條例第二十條裡面的規範，國防部必須要負起責任，而國防部根本在這裡面沒有角色！選舉之前讓我的獵人、族人都知道，好嗎？國防部請你們擔起角色，請原民會也好好地監督他們。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝高金素梅委員。","邱臣遠、邱臣遠、邱臣遠委員不在。","接下來我們請黃世杰委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-12","speakers":["羅美玲","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","陳琬惠","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","李德維","張宏陸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","高金素梅","黃世杰","賴品妤","林文瑞"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-07"],"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00002","1129702_00003","1129702_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬\n經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國\n專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案；二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)\n審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查時\n代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員張\n其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)繼\n續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)繼續審查委\n員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員蔡\n易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員\n羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員王美惠等22\n人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲\n彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管\n制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍\n砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案","agenda_id":"1129702_00001"}}},{"id":"148923","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148923","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c04dd77d0e3f90e6d564f73b9825177cacbc986728e607a032250b48a977d456e315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:43:07 - 10:53:46","影片長度":"00:10:39","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra 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等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查時\n代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員張\n其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)繼\n續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)繼續審查委\n員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員蔡\n易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員\n羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員王美惠等22\n人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲\n彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管\n制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍\n砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案","agenda_id":"1129702_00001"}}},{"id":"148922","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148922","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c04505cde8a3461f91f4f73b9825177cacbc986728e607a0322604f80897a2691b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"10:33:24 - 10:42:48","影片長度":"00:09:24","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查時代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員張其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員王美惠等22人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-12"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":564,"end_time":"2023-12-07T10:42:48+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T10:33:24+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":542,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（10時33分）主席好，有請次長以及署長。"],["主席：有請吳次長跟黃署長。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長好、署長好。辦公室這邊有跟警政署聯繫，希望能夠提供一個近幾年持槍的案件數，但是我拿到的是槍擊案的案件數，我不曉得是不是對於持槍沒有去做統計？"],["黃署長明昭：跟委員報告，我們再提供，可能當時在我們的認知上有錯誤，我們再提供持有槍……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：其實我是希望瞭解持槍的數據，還有就是持槍案裡面獵槍的數據，因為我想這個部分對我們來講其實是問政，也是很需要的一個基礎資料，那就麻煩再提供。","另外我看到你們所提供的查緝槍枝的情形，非制式槍枝是占比最高，這當中我們的獵槍，它其實是含在非制式槍枝裡面，那為什麼我這樣子問？因為這一次的修法目的，就是看到現在社會改造槍枝的犯案比例越來越高，對嗎？也發現槍彈這些零組件沒有完全地納管。另外更重要的是大家都在談的就是現在原本我們這個是管制條例，管制槍枝的使用，但是現在增加了一個開槍的行為，就是公然的開槍，所以在這個部分，以前我們看到是在刑法裡面處理，這一次在我們的槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例裡面也把它納進來了。所以在這個部分，我們就有幾個疑慮，像剛才大家都在問的，就是原住民會經常做鳴槍，當然我知道你們的回答一定會說：這個沒有問題。可是要知道，我們很多人其實對於去申請這件事情是糊里糊塗的，我也看到很多祭儀活動的鳴槍儀式，有時候我們槍枝忘記登記，而要去申請的這個動作我們一般來講都不太嫻熟，經常忘記，不曉得新增了這個第九條之一第二項之後會不會被處罰？會不會用刑法來處罰？"],["吳次長容輝：感謝委員的指教，這一部分已經都排除了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：忘記申請也會排除？"],["吳次長容輝：這一部分因為刑罰的部分已經排除，行政罰的部分還是有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那怎麼辦？"],["吳次長容輝：我想這部分我們會宣導，我們會再去輔導他來做這個……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：僅僅用宣導？"],["吳次長容輝：許可啦！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：僅僅用宣導？"],["吳次長容輝：因為現在有一些的確像委員講的一樣，有些他也不曉得要來申請許可，這一部分我們會再透過相關的管道再讓我們……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以只能用宣導嗎？次長，我跟您說，三年多前那一次的修法就是槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例，當時對於零組件的除罪化，大家意見很多，因為他們會覺得不是早在二十多年前我們的獵槍就已經除罪化，可是我們提出來的數據可以看到，每一年大概會有50件被判刑，獵人被關起來判刑，最主要的原因就是在法官那邊出了問題，法官那邊會卡關，因為每一位法官他的認定、他的解讀其實是不一樣的喔！所以我們舉個例子，這邊有一個2014年秀林鄉的慕谷慕魚遭到破壞，在這邊「砰、砰、砰」，還好當時的地檢署是不起訴處分，因為這個法官他是在花蓮秀林，其實我也要感謝地檢署還有我們的司法院，這些年我知道都有在做這種文化的講習，因為我以前也經常受邀去做演講。我的意思是說有的法官就不知道，他很容易就會入罪，所以次長、署長這個怎麼辦？"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，我想這在大法官803號解釋，或者是在憲法第二十二條或增修條文第四條就講得很清楚了，這一部分是尊重我們原住民的這些文化或者是儀式，這些都已經都排除掉了，至於司法怎麼去判，還是要依循大法官的會議解釋跟憲法相關規定。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：來，署長請。"],["黃署長明昭：跟委員報告，有關原住民持有制式獵槍或者是原民的基本法，在警察常年教育訓練裡，我們每三個月都有一個講習，會納入在這個講習的課程裡面，讓員警多瞭解到原民應有的基本法，以及……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這是很好啦！但是我們還是希望在條例裡面，我這樣講好了，這一次新增的一些條文，其實很多的原住民團體都有意見，因為時間的關係，我其實已經用書面取得警政署的回復，我也會轉達，今天在質詢這邊我本來想要問得更清楚，但是我想說，我們反對的原因就是都還沒有同步修第二十條，並且第二十條也還沒有全部施行上路，大家也都還在使用原本的自製獵槍零組件，這個漏洞很大喔！署長你應該明白吧？"],["黃署長明昭：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，所以這個部分我希望針對新增的第九條之一或者是修正的第四條、新增的第五條之三、新增的第十三條之一、新增的第二十條之二，這是我們很多原民團體有意見的部分，可能會衝擊到我們，我希望這個……","我只要先講一個新增第五條之三，你們提到說要組成一個槍砲彈藥審認的爭議諮詢小組，但是我們問有沒有邀請原民團體及代表時，你們說針對涉及原住民自製獵槍等相關爭議案件，會邀請原民會及相關專家學者列席諮詢，是「列席」耶！這個都已經是相關爭議案件了，我們應該要出席吧？要有表決權吧？為什麼只是列席諮詢呢？所以這個回復我們有意見，請署長說明。"],["黃署長明昭：跟委員報告，我們在未來訂定作業辦法的時候會把它列得相當清楚，包括原民的代表，我們都把他列進來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們可以出席嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：對，當然可以出席。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝，不要說只是列席諮詢，所以這個地方我是希望……我們已經等到了獵槍專法，很感謝警政署順應民意辦了9場全國分區座談，已經重新蒐整意見了，我只是希望這個由內政部會銜原民會、國防部發布的部分，我希望訂一個清楚的公告實施的期程，好不好？要不然新舊法又新增，這個空窗漏洞很大，搞不好很多的族人又會因為這個部分入獄，好不好？"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員，這一部分我們在後面的法制程序……現在條文大概都有共識，後面要走的是法制程序。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：確定都有共識了？"],["吳次長容輝：有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不會又蹦出來？"],["吳次長容輝：不會啦！"],["黃署長明昭：跟委員補充報告，我們開了好幾次會，絕大部分都有共識，部分我們還在協調……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：少許沒有共識的，是不是可以早一點讓我們瞭解？"],["黃署長明昭：是，這個……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我想開誠布公是最好的溝通方法，好不好？謝謝次長、署長，以上這些我希望二個禮拜以內再提供我更清楚的答復。"],["吳次長容輝：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。林文瑞委員交書面。接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-12","speakers":["羅美玲","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","陳琬惠","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","李德維","張宏陸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","高金素梅","黃世杰","賴品妤","林文瑞"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-07"],"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00002","1129702_00003","1129702_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬\n經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國\n專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案；二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)\n審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查時\n代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員張\n其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)繼\n續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)繼續審查委\n員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員蔡\n易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員\n羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員王美惠等22\n人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲\n彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管\n制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍\n砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案","agenda_id":"1129702_00001"}}},{"id":"148921","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148921","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c04db8bc8e637cefe394f73b9825177cacbc986728e607a032235932578338c4f7e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:24:31 - 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Kacaw等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查時代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員張其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員王美惠等22人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-12"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":497,"end_time":"2023-12-07T10:32:48+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T10:24:31+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":499,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時24分）先請海巡署。"],["主席：有請海巡署、海委會周副主委。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員早。"],["張委員宏陸：副主委，我們今天講到抽砂船，其實抽砂船每次一來的數量都滿多的，我們有的艦艇噸位比較小，也沒有辦法一次面對這麼多，又要強行登船的話，其實也有滿多危險。在這種情況之下，我們抓到違法抽砂船的比例與實際來的數量相比其實不高，對不對？"],["周副主任委員美伍：跟委員報告，在我們通過土採法和專經法這兩個法之後，從110年到現在整個抽砂船違法抽砂的情形大幅獲得改善，在110年以前，我們每年驅趕的量大概有幾千艘，從111年以後就剩百艘，像今年度我們只有個位數字的艘數，都是因為我們強力執法，以及專經法和土採法給我們的權力。以目前的法院判決來講，我們有六艘沒收、六艘查扣、四艘拍賣、一艘罰鍰，另外一艘就是現在有爭議的這一艘，我們希望法院能夠採取同一的法律標準判決沒收，這樣才能夠讓他犯罪所付出的代價，跟他所獲得的利益不成比例。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，今天我們修法就是要這樣，我的意思是有時候我們的艦艇噸位沒有像抽砂船那麼大，所以也增加了很多危險，我們要抓違法抽砂船，法律沒有規定一定要用海巡自己的船吧？"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有。"],["張委員宏陸：我們也可以出其不意，也可以租用民間的船，或是一些民間二手噸位相等的船，這樣對我們弟兄的安全會不會比較好？"],["周副主任委員美伍：比較有保障。"],["張委員宏陸：會不會比較有保障？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得這個方向我們可以去思考看看，好不好？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，我們回去研究一下。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。","接下來我想請林部長和警政署長。"],["主席：有請林部長和黃署長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：部長、署長，這一次我們要修槍砲彈藥條例，我有一個想法要跟大家討論一下，這一次本草案新增的第九條之一「於公共場所、公眾得出入場所開槍」，這一次我們要再增加2年刑期，我對增加完全沒有意見、完全支持也不反對，只是把這個部分放在槍砲彈藥管制條例裡面，你認為是比較好呢？還是我們去修刑法比較好？署長的看法呢？"],["黃署長明昭：跟委員報告，槍砲條例是在規範槍砲的持有、製造、販賣、使用，還有在使用這一塊，如果他對空無故開槍，沒有造成刑法上的不確定故意殺人或其他毀損案件，所以我們把它列在這個條文裡面，這是我的見解。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，但這是有殺傷力的槍，今天如果他拿了一把真正的手槍對空鳴槍是犯刑法，還是犯什麼法？"],["黃署長明昭：以目前的法律來講，還是槍砲條例，他純粹持有制式槍械，在公共場合對空開槍會造成民眾的不安及恐慌，所以要加重其刑責，除了持有槍械的刑責以外，還要再課予他對大眾恐嚇……"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，我對加重刑責完全沒有意見，我也很支持，現在我們的認知是在公共場所對空鳴槍沒有觸犯刑法嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：只有持有槍械。"],["張委員宏陸：我已經開槍了，沒有犯刑法？"],["黃署長明昭：這可能……法務部的見解。"],["張委員宏陸：對這一個，我覺得等一下可以大家來討論一下。我覺得啦，都已經在公共場所了，都已經對空鳴槍了，這樣子的情況之下，我們用槍砲彈藥管理條例，你加重他的刑責，我個人會認為你在刑法上面，還是你兩個都修？這個等一下我們可以考量一下吧！"],["主席：署長你的麥克風好像沒有開。"],["黃署長明昭：我想其實兩邊都可以修，但是我們是槍砲條例嘛！所以我們是建議槍砲條例先修可以啦！"],["張委員宏陸：我今天就是要來，因為我們在修法，在法律用哪個法條，我覺得這個可能大家要斟酌一下啦！"],["林部長右昌：不過我跟委員報告一下，因為這一條其實有立即的、急迫性的需要，因為我們看到很多的犯罪分子他是利用這個法律上的漏洞，我們這一次因為要修槍砲彈藥管制條例，所以我們在這個地方同步把它做修法，這樣子修法通過之後我們可以去立即來做適用。"],["張委員宏陸：好。"],["林部長右昌：所以這個也請委員可以支持，因為這個是有急迫性的需求。"],["張委員宏陸：我已經說了我是支持。"],["林部長右昌：是，兩邊都可以。"],["張委員宏陸：但是你如果說你刑法沒有，或者這樣子會不會讓人家覺得我們的法令沒有很周全，大家要跟你討論這個問題，對不對？不管你在哪，你在公共場所對空鳴槍沒有犯刑法！剛剛署長講的意思，其實我聽了也覺得很奇怪。"],["黃署長明昭：如果認真追究應該有危害公共安全的這一條罪，但是這個比較輕罪，會被持有槍砲吸收，所以還是用槍砲條例來判罪啦，所以沒辦法提升它的刑度。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道啦！但沒關係等一下再討論，如果原住民在豐年祭裡面，他對空開好幾槍，那怎麼辦？"],["林部長右昌：這個是除罪，這個沒有問題，因為這是因為他的文化跟民俗祭典的關係。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，我不是說他在慶典開的，他可能跟人家有衝突喔！"],["林部長右昌：那就不行。"],["張委員宏陸：對不對？我的意思是我很支持這個方案，但有一些東西我們要考慮一下，等一下我們再來討論，我覺得這個要考慮清楚。"],["林部長右昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝張宏陸委員。","接下來邀請伍麗華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-12","speakers":["羅美玲","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","陳琬惠","王美惠","鄭天財Sra 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等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查時\n代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員張\n其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)繼\n續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)繼續審查委\n員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員蔡\n易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員\n羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員王美惠等22\n人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲\n彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管\n制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍\n砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案","agenda_id":"1129702_00001"}}},{"id":"148920","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148920","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c04055ada50938d3c1e4f73b9825177cacbc986728e607a032206c82363fbb529205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李德維","委員發言時間":"10:14:33 - 10:24:14","影片長度":"00:09:41","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查時代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員張其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員王美惠等22人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-12"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":581,"end_time":"2023-12-07T10:24:14+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T10:14:33+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":468,"blocks":[["李委員德維：（10時14分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：有請林部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["李委員德維：部長早。中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第二條第一項規定：「中華民國之專屬經濟海域為鄰接領海外側至距離領海基線二百浬間之海域」。但是之前我們的海洋研究船新海研1號經過跨部會的審議通過，7月在海巡署吉安艦的戒護下，於沖繩的東北部、我們的專屬經濟海域進行研究，卻被日本海上保安廳以從事未經同意的調查活動為由驅逐，請問這樣也算是臺日友好嗎？政府有沒有抗議呢？"],["林部長右昌：那個地方是我們主張的領域，但它也是臺日重疊的海域，我們當然會依法維護我們的權益。"],["李委員德維：所以是尊重日方來驅逐嗎？是這個意思嗎？"],["林部長右昌：我們當然也會表示我們的主張。"],["李委員德維：那當然。請教在南沙跟東沙會不會發生類似的問題？"],["林部長右昌：我們的法律規定都很清楚，只要是我國所屬的領海還有經濟海域，包括國軍及海巡署都是依相關規定來處置。"],["李委員德維：這個部分要請內政部，當然包含海委會海巡署，研究怎麼樣來確保漁民跟科研船在這邊的合法權益，內政部可以努力去做嗎？"],["林部長右昌：我們不是海研單位也不是海巡署，不過就法的部分，我們會這樣主張。"],["李委員德維：好，瞭解。部長再請教一下，這次針對槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例修法，將不法模擬槍提升到刑法規範，將子彈、零件列入行政罰，增訂公共場所開槍罪等，本席肯定這樣的修法方向，是正確的。但是這個條例第十八條第四項後段：「拒絕供述或供述不實者，得加重其刑至三分之一」並沒有刪除，其實這個部分有一些爭議，部長知道哪裡有爭議嗎？沒關係，據本席瞭解，沒有法官把這個條文予以適用過，本席認為這個條文違反了刑法「不自證己罪」的原則，非常地明顯，所以有違憲的疑慮。當然綜觀所有的法律並沒有這樣的規定，所以是不是要思考這個條文怎麼修正？目前業者進口低動能的槍支銷售，內政部警政署是依據低動能槍支輸入審查要點予以准駁，但該要點是依據貿易法第十一條第一項的但書，基於國際條約或國防、治安得予以限制。但這個法律的主管機關是經濟部，所以相關要點公布跟准駁的權限都不是警政署，警政署卻自己訂定規範予以批准或者駁回，部長覺得這樣可以嗎？主管機關是經濟部，卻由警政署來批准，這不是很怪嗎？"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告兩個部分，第一個是委員剛剛提到的前一題，如果立法院審議並且經相關學者專家討論，大家有共識、有修正的必要，本部會予以尊重。這是第一個。"],["李委員德維：好，這個部分當然也請內政部帶回去研究一下，好不好？"],["林部長右昌：好。"],["李委員德維：另外一個部分就是我剛剛講到的，就是所謂低動能槍支的銷售，現在由警政署來予以准駁。"],["林部長右昌：這個部分我請署長說明。"],["李委員德維：好，署長。"],["黃署長明昭：低動能槍支的審查是根據貿易法第十一條的規定來辦理，從去年9月份開始實施，到現在大概都很順利，業者也能遵守審核的規定來辦理。雖然主責是經濟部國貿署來辦理，但是基於治安為由，邊境審查委由警政署辦理，是這樣在運作。"],["李委員德維：署長、部長，你聽一下，這次草案增列第五條之三的條款，政府為審認槍砲條例的爭議，得遴聘相關組織、機構、專家學者成立爭議諮詢小組，但這個新增條文是源自於修法管理模擬槍時，建立的模擬槍審議委員會的法制化，最初也是玩具槍協會的建議。但是部長，模擬槍審議委員會轉型成為槍砲彈藥審議委員會，在功能上會不會有所區別？因為基本上模擬槍跟所謂的槍砲彈藥其實還是有差距的，在這個部分也有業者反映，很多參加會議的政府單位如經濟部完全不瞭解槍砲的專業知識，所謂的專家學者有一些是警大或相關單位的教授。所以這個部分是不是請部長也要帶回去思考，怎麼樣來做修正及加強，畢竟在槍砲彈藥刀械的部分，經濟部也沒有所謂的專業功能，所以如何強化的部分請內政部來思考，可以嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：這個會訂定一個組成辦法，到時候組成辦法裡面組成的專家學者還有機關單位代表，我們會審慎來組成。"],["李委員德維：我建議署長，假如要召開類似相關的會議，恐怕要把內容先提供給大家……"],["黃署長明昭：當然。"],["李委員德維：畢竟這個實在太專業，請來的人到了現場再看資料，恐怕會非常困難。另外，本席再提出一個建議，草案第二十條之一有規定模擬槍的管理，但是為了避免我們國內的廠商將專門外銷的模擬槍偷偷賣到臺灣內部，第二十條之三修正條文是由原本的警察機關得進入廠商處所進行行政檢查，應該會同中央目的主管事業機關，也就是經濟部一起來做，但這一次我們修改成必要時會同事業主管。意思很簡單，就是我們警察機關可以直接進去，主管機關經濟部必要時再說，這樣會不會讓我們警察機關的權力擴張？","請部長再聽一下，玩具槍管理規則在民國91年司法院釋憲570號釋憲文裡面被宣告為違憲，理由是人民自由和權利的限制依據憲法第23條規定要以法律定之，在這裡面授權的目的、內容、範圍要明確，始得據以發布命令。將玩具槍納入所謂的限制輸入貨品表裡面，算是政府繞過法律自行擴權的一小步。現在我們修法通過的話，把經濟部這些相關的單位涼到一邊去，這個部分也提供給內政部警政署思考一下恰不恰當，本席今天提出一些修法相關的建議或想法，請內政部和警政署好好商量，好不好？"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員提醒，我們希望這個法案的修正能夠更加的完整跟圓滿，因為槍砲彈藥管制的這些標的都不是一般商品，大家也有這個共識，這跟我們的治安有關係。委員剛剛提的那一點……"],["李委員德維：就是玩具槍……"],["林部長右昌：原則上我們會尊重大院的審議，你剛剛提到是否要加「必要性」三個字，我們會尊重。"],["李委員德維：瞭解，謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：請張委員宏陸發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-12","speakers":["羅美玲","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","陳琬惠","王美惠","鄭天財Sra 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等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查時\n代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員張\n其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)繼\n續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)繼續審查委\n員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員蔡\n易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員\n羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員王美惠等22\n人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲\n彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管\n制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍\n砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案","agenda_id":"1129702_00001"}}},{"id":"148919","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148919","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c048ee7a467155510aa4f73b9825177cacbc986728e607a0322cbfbb2dae5f8c4225ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:06:58 - 10:14:21","影片長度":"00:07:23","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查時代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員張其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員王美惠等22人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-12"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":443,"end_time":"2023-12-07T10:14:21+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T10:06:58+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":420,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（10時6分）謝謝主席，請內政部林部長。"],["主席：有請林部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["主席：部長早。上次在徐國勇部長任內的時候，本席爭取了一個金門的亮點計畫11億，當初的內容是做金門環島自行車道路網系統、太武山林間步道系統以及參與型戰爭體驗計畫，在112年到115年間。請問原來建置金門環島自行車道路系統的計畫是不是有變更？要轉為改善烈嶼道路及金湖鎮中正公園大小太湖的周邊道路？"],["林部長右昌：委員所提的這個是否有變更，我並不清楚這個訊息。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，這個是你們內政部發的函，事實上是因為我們金門縣政府有提出相關的變更，原來我們是要做全島自行車系統，這是上一任徐國勇部長任內，也是那時候上一任縣長任內提出來的，後來因為選舉、政黨輪替，我們那邊就變民眾黨執政，現在新任縣長就說要把這個改成相關其他的計畫，所以內政部現在是同意嗎？"],["林部長右昌：目前縣政府是在做規劃跟設計，他們預計在113（明）年的時候才要向國土署來做提報。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以已經變更了？我的看法是，我也覺得自行車計畫很重要，但是因為這是我們地方政府提出來的，我當然也是支持，既然現任縣長有他的想法。雖然這個亮點計畫是那時候徐國勇部長任內，他那時候到金門考察，當場跟我們承諾會給我們11億的預算，我們也希望錢用在刀口上，因為對金門整體發展還是有幫助，所以也請內政部要多支持，不管縣政府提出哪一樣的計畫。"],["林部長右昌：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：反正是用在我們金門縣。","還有一點，部長有沒有去過烏坵？"],["林部長右昌：我沒有去過烏坵。"],["陳委員玉珍：你沒去過，烏坵是屬於金門縣的一個鄉。"],["林部長右昌：是，我也蠻想去的。"],["陳委員玉珍：你蠻想去，明年如果還有機會，今年因為已經接近選舉，也比較沒有空，但是烏坵出入交通非常不方便，15天才有一班船，15天一班一去，因為碼頭建設又不夠好，所以船沒有辦法停很久，停留一下就要走。很多烏坵鄉親住在臺中，如果要返鄉探親，沒有辦法停留，船班一停就要停15天也不可能，島上的民生需求還是有，比如島上沒有民生用水，很難想像島上沒有民生用水。你大概很難想像，現在島上大部分都是阿兵哥，有200多位。"],["林部長右昌：烏坵其實面積很小。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，一點多平方公里，但不應該因為它的面積小或是偏遠，政府就忽略照顧民生基本需求，現在島上沒有民生用水，都是發礦泉水。我大概是唯一在上面住過一個星期的金門縣政治人物。現在它是屬於我們金門縣的鄉鎮，但是事實上也屬於內政部管轄，所以應該要考量島上這種基本的民生需求，比如設置簡易的海水淡化設施。現在當然國防部的官兵比較多，如果有很簡易的海水淡化設施，價錢也不貴的，應該替我們烏坵鄉民來考慮這一類的東西。這個有沒有問題？"],["林部長右昌：委員，這個是不是容我們回去研究一下？"],["陳委員玉珍：是，你們整個研究一下，第一個島上交通不方便，交通不方便現在一定要做碼頭，因為這個沒有在內政部的管轄內，我等一下問。請海巡署上來，這是海巡署的業務，因為海巡署也有編列相關預算，但是民生基本需求應該屬於內政部，所以這個回去也幫我們關心一下。"],["林部長右昌：我們研究一下。"],["陳委員玉珍：不應該因為它偏遠，就減少顧及這樣的民生需求。"],["林部長右昌：因為烏坵基本上都是軍事管制區域，一般民眾很少，其實我滿想去看一下島上的狀況。"],["陳委員玉珍：不然選舉過後我們找個時間，還有時間嘛！1月13日選舉，到2月1號中間就找個時間。真的！當第一位踏上烏坵島的內政部長，幫我們真的瞭解當地的需求，好嗎？"],["林部長右昌：如果有機會的話。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝部長。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：接著請教海委會海巡署。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：有關烏坵整建碼頭，108年4月26號金門有開一個首長聯繫會報，那時候張景森政委有裁示，國防部會彙整金門縣與海巡署需求統一辦理，但後面沒有具體進度爺吔！。我之前有在緊盯，國防部海軍司令部告訴我，它完成了可行性的評估報告，規劃編列十一億六千五百多萬。經費總共20億，其中國防部編列十一億多，海巡署要編列六億多，金門縣要編列一億六千多萬。剛剛我提過那個碼頭，署長應該去過了吧？您去過了嘛？你知道那個碼頭沒有辦法靠船，所以交通極為不便，15天一班船，返鄉都只能停留大概兩個小時，您知道嘛？您知道這個情形？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：海巡的船常去，有時候還要接駁非常不方便，所以這個碼頭事實上非常重要，也非常基本，包括對島上的官兵來講也很重要。國防部已經完成可行性評估報告，也編列十億多，海巡署編列六億多，金門縣會編列一億多，從111年到116年。請問海巡預計大概什麼時候開始幫我們編列6億多的分攤經費？"],["周副主任委員美伍：目前這個案子政策決定後，我們預劃就是從114年。"],["陳委員玉珍：114年？"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，114年。"],["陳委員玉珍：第一次，現在快113……6億多……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們所分攤的部分就像委員的資料所列，因為張景森政委已經開過協調會了。"],["陳委員玉珍：108年就開完了，所以你們從114年開始編，按照……"],["周副主任委員美伍：預訂我們的……按照它的……"],["陳委員玉珍：就是按照你們……"],["周副主任委員美伍：這個全案的計畫……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為海巡官兵也很需要這個碼頭，對吧？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為要上去，海巡也是坐船坐很久，不容易停靠，上面離大陸真的是很近，常有大陸漁船在那邊，你們要去驅離，所以這個碼頭對海巡署來講也是很重要，希望到時候要如期來編列。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝署長。"],["周副主任委員美伍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員。","接下來邀請李德維委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-12","speakers":["羅美玲","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","陳琬惠","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","李德維","張宏陸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","高金素梅","黃世杰","賴品妤","林文瑞"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-07"],"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00002","1129702_00003","1129702_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬\n經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國\n專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案；二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)\n審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查時\n代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員張\n其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)繼\n續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)繼續審查委\n員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員蔡\n易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員\n羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員王美惠等22\n人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲\n彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管\n制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍\n砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案","agenda_id":"1129702_00001"}}},{"id":"148917","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148917","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c044294da032a2b19e74f73b9825177cacbc986728e607a0322d1d510c8f51747fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"09:46:49 - 09:56:03","影片長度":"00:09:14","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查時代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員張其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員王美惠等22人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-12"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":554,"end_time":"2023-12-07T09:56:03+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T09:46:49+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":388,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時46分）主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：有請林部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員早。"],["王委員美惠：部長早。今天要審查槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例的修正草案，本席認為主要是長久以來，槍枝的相關零件都是進口的，槍是假的，但是因為零件進口，會讓老百姓覺得管理的方法不夠完備，所以今天才要修正本條例。本席首先要跟部長探討的是影視道具槍是否需要入法；第二是要新增槍砲彈藥刀械審認爭議諮詢小組；第三是要如何提高非法製造的刑責；第四是在公共場所開槍時，我們都認為一定要有人死亡，才有辦法判比較重的罪，但是時代變了，環境也已經不同。所以本席今天要和所有的官員探討，現行條文第十八條有關自首的規定是可以減輕或免除其刑，這樣對長久以來擁有槍枝或是改造槍枝的人而言，是否有足夠的自首的誘因？這些問題是不是可以請部長或署長回答一下？"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，實際上我們現在發現，有犯罪意圖的人就是在鑽法律漏洞，譬如第一，他公開開槍，但是沒有對人開槍，第二，他開槍之後，馬上去自首，所以他就是在閃避法律上的刑度和處罰，所以這次要修法。"],["王委員美惠：難怪會請你來擔任部長，有當過父母官的人，真的能瞭解地方的情形。部長說他們會鑽法律漏洞，因為現在中央規定趕緊來自首還可以減輕，部長你應該知道SOP嘛！他如果開槍之後，有什麼SOP部長知道嗎？"],["林部長右昌：他為了閃避法律，譬如他會找18歲以下的年輕人，因為青少年可以減輕刑責；第二，他沒有對人，是對空或者對門、對物射擊，去達到他的目的；最後，就是馬上去自首。所以我們現在一定要將這種行為，把這個漏洞補起來，有這種意圖且精心設計要達到他的目的、擾亂社會的治安及民眾的安寧，這個我們一定要給他處罰。"],["王委員美惠：部長，本席在此跟你探討的時候，感覺會因為環境的不同，做法也不同，尤其現在部長也有講到重點，會叫18歲的年輕人去自首，叫他們坐計程車去自首之後，再來你知道最重要的一項是什麼嗎？就是會跟他們說：「你安心去自首，律師馬上就來了。」部長，這就是剛才你說的要怎麼把這個問題的漏洞趕快補起來。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["王委員美惠：現在的治安說實在的，我是認為不好耶！你認為呢？"],["林部長右昌：我想警察同仁大家都很盡力，不過好還要更好，我們還要繼續加強。"],["王委員美惠：部長，我們所有的警察人員當然都非常地辛苦，這你、我、大家都知道嘛！只是要怎麼讓百姓認為我們臺灣的治安會更好，剛才本席跟你說假槍在製造的時候換裡面的零件，說實在你看之前報紙有報導說一隻狗走著走著居然會咬到槍，報紙亂寫說那是真槍，讓百姓都很驚慌，想說怎麼會連小狗都能撿到槍，事實上那也不是啊！部長，對吧？所以像是這種事情，如果你們沒有處理好，沒有馬上出來澄清的時候，百姓就會認為是真的，何況現在還是選舉的時候，如果亂說或是亂搞的話，百姓會相信耶！部長。"],["林部長右昌：所以這次為什麼要修法，也感謝委員非常關心，剛才說的錯假訊息的部分，我現在都要求警政署跟警察局，第一個就是要立即澄清、立即說明，而且要一定層級以上，這樣才有效果，也才能夠遏止。"],["王委員美惠：本席今天也有提出一個修法草案，就是將「減輕」改成「得減輕」，這是最重要的啦！因為這樣才有辦法嚇阻那些叫年輕人去做壞事的人，讓他們不敢這樣做。還有我們進口零件進來，部長我相信你也知道，一支假的槍如果一直進口零件進來改造會變成真的耶！所有的改造完成之後，比真的還要真啦！部長。"],["林部長右昌：是，委員說的這二點就是這次我們修法的重點，你的意見跟行政院的版本是一致的。"],["王委員美惠：從剛剛到現在，本席已經講了三次了，我們現在的環境不同，治安還要再好一點，所以在講刑罰的時候，該加強的就要加強。本席也說就算裡面已經有判7年的，我們也要再加強一點，給予更重的10年，因為這個我們訂定出來，一定要有嚇阻的用途，而不是為了讓他們改邪歸正或是自首，這都是不對的。本席覺得在公共場所開槍的也要加重刑責，因為這是在公共場所，會造成治安的問題，大家也很驚慌，認為都沒有政府，對於在公共場所開槍的要加重刑責，部長你有什麼看法？"],["林部長右昌：非常感謝委員，我們的意見也是這樣，這次的修法我們也有把它納入。"],["王委員美惠：因為我覺得……"],["林部長右昌：我們現在把它修到7年以上。"],["王委員美惠：你是修到7年，但本席是認為可以修到10年，因為這不是口號喊一喊而已，而是定好以後真的可以讓百姓覺得自己不要做壞事，政府只會越定越嚴，以上。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠委員。","接下來請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-12","speakers":["羅美玲","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","陳琬惠","王美惠","鄭天財Sra 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等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查時\n代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員張\n其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)繼\n續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)繼續審查委\n員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員蔡\n易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員\n羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員王美惠等22\n人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲\n彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管\n制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍\n砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案","agenda_id":"1129702_00001"}}},{"id":"148916","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148916","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c0437533b741e92fca44f73b9825177cacbc986728e607a0322dab1372d823571c45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳琬惠","委員發言時間":"09:38:36 - 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Kacaw等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查時代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員張其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員王美惠等22人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-12"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":480,"end_time":"2023-12-07T09:46:36+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T09:38:36+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":364,"blocks":[["陳委員琬惠：（9時38分）謝謝主席，有請內政部長及海委會副主委。"],["主席：請副主委及部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["陳委員琬惠：部長早安。部長上禮拜有到宜蘭來拜拜，那天實在有點可惜，本席身為內政委員會的委員，你都到宜蘭來了，我卻沒有一起去，真的有點不好意思。我希望相關訊息以後可以公開，讓本席辦公室也知道，不然你到現場都只有民進黨相關的人，我覺得這樣子不太好。這部分可能要請部長再幫我留意，只要你有到宜蘭來或是處理與內政相關的議題，都希望能夠通知本席辦公室。"],["林部長右昌：好的。跟委員報告，我那天是去縣警局視察，然後有廟的行程，行程都是公開的，未來如果有到宜蘭的話，會再特別把訊息pass給委員辦公室。"],["陳委員琬惠：對啦，就是我們一起來關心嘛！因為我們……"],["林部長右昌：是，我們的行程都是公開的，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員琬惠：謝謝。我今天要問的是過去警察通常是透過肉眼辨識的方式，來辨識經過某路段車輛的車牌，後來導入車牌辨識系統，在大部分的主要幹道上都有架設。現在新型的錄影監視系統有車牌辨識、智慧影像分析功能，我們的警察同仁要透過監視器來偵辦刑案的時候，只要在公務電腦上輸入車牌號碼，就可以查到該車輛的歷史軌跡，在辦案上面更加方便快速，成為打擊犯罪的利器。所以本席想要請問部長，現在使用錄監系統而查獲的刑案數占全部刑案查獲數的比例大概有多少？車牌辨識系統的全國平均建置比例又是怎麼樣？"],["林部長右昌：委員，因為監視器的設置必須跟它的目的相符，並不是所有的監錄系統都有車牌辨識的功能，有關比例的部分，我請署長來做說明。"],["陳委員琬惠：好，謝謝。"],["黃署長明昭：跟委員報告，刑案一發生以後，在偵查手段當中，監視錄影系統是相當重要的，因為要取得相關的人證、物證，經統計，大概有兩成多是透過監視錄影系統去追查而破獲案件的。"],["陳委員琬惠：兩成？好。謝謝部長和署長。我之所以要問車牌辨識系統，是因為我這個會期在審查預算案的時候有特別關心到，審計部連續兩年的總決算審核報告都有提到，海巡署的偵防分署為了加強執行海域緝毒、追緝毒品源頭，已經完成港區和聯外道路車牌辨識系統的建置，但是跟部分機關的介接協調作業好像沒有具體的進度，所謂「部分機關」指的應該就是警政署。所以本席之前審查預算在和海巡署偵防分署溝通的時候有提到，他們跟警政署、刑事警察局、各地方政府警察局和交通局等相關機關都要持續密切溝通，但是海巡署的同仁也提到，今年他們都有去拜會警政署，10月份還去函，希望可以申請相關的介接系統，讓車牌辨識資料更完整。所以本席現在想請問海委會副主委，有關偵防分署和警政署之間的介接申請，不知道目前進度怎麼樣？"],["周副主任委員美伍：跟委員報告，目前我們跟警政署還有刑事警察局都已經開過會，也接洽過了，雖然目前還沒有直接架接，但是只要遇到任何需要調查的案件，刑事警察局或者是警政署都能夠在第一時間提供我們相對應的資料，所以對我們偵辦案件目前而言並沒有太大的問題。後續我們將會遵照設定的目標和做法，很嚴謹地在相關機關督導之下來完成這個架接的工作。我們在資料的運用方面，也會尊重委員上次跟我們指導的，要注意個資的保護和法律條文的規範，在接洽和會議當中，我們彼此都有討論到這些細節的地方。以上跟委員補充說明。"],["陳委員琬惠：所以看起來是按照個案來做相關的介接。也不是介接，就是提供相關的資料。"],["黃署長明昭：我跟委員報告，除了根據個案相互調取監視錄影系統來應用以外，現在也商談到系統的介接，已經在談這個系統的介接了，現在都有在進行。因為雙方建置的系統不一致，現在在談如何介接的細節。"],["陳委員琬惠：OK，所以要問一下部長，因為都是內政部底下的相關單位。相關的介接一定是好事，剛剛署長特別講到是因為軟體的關係，不知道這個時間上面大概會需要多久？"],["林部長右昌：我想這個我們會來支持，也會儘快地來跟海委會就細節的部分進行討論，如果軟硬體設備需要做進一步調整的話，我們兩個部會也會儘快把它做一個處理。"],["陳委員琬惠：OK，謝謝部長在這邊做相關的承諾。有了部長的關心，我想這個部分會再更加速一點。","因為今天也要討論槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例的部分，我在這邊想要請教一下警政署長，應該有一些相關單位希望未來可以有機會把他們納入槍砲彈藥刀械審認爭議諮詢小組，做為相關的專家跟代表，比如說像原住民團體、玩具槍或生存遊戲業者，所以我今天想特別問一下署長，對於他們這樣的希望和訴求，你的態度是怎麼樣？"],["黃署長明昭：跟委員報告，警械使用條例修法時，調查小組的部分有把專家、學者，還有基層代表、民間代表都納入，另外我們在槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例的修法裡面，也會針對爭議諮詢的部分組成小組，由一定比例的相關代表來加入。"],["陳委員琬惠：所以會考慮把這些人也納入專家代表裡面？"],["黃署長明昭：是，沒錯，包含民間業者都……"],["陳委員琬惠：好，謝謝署長，謝謝。"],["主席（羅委員美玲）：謝謝陳琬惠委員，接下來請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-12","speakers":["羅美玲","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","陳琬惠","王美惠","鄭天財Sra 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等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查時\n代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員張\n其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)繼\n續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)繼續審查委\n員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員蔡\n易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員\n羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員王美惠等22\n人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲\n彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管\n制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍\n砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案","agenda_id":"1129702_00001"}}},{"id":"148915","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148915","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c044f5aff2c7fbec8ee4f73b9825177cacbc986728e607a0322a637cdb474afce8b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:29:14 - 09:38:18","影片長度":"00:09:04","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查時代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員張其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員王美惠等22人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-12"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":544,"end_time":"2023-12-07T09:38:18+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T09:29:14+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":341,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時29分）謝謝主席，有請警政署黃署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["黃署長明昭：委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：署長好。署長，今天我們要修槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例，是為了補齊治安的漏洞，我想我們內政委員會的委員都會來支持，可是今天本席想要跟署長討論的就是有關於警察不當盤查的這件事情。今年初，其實發生了臺灣史上第一件員警因為不當盤查，有兩個員警分別被處四個月及六個月的徒刑。這件事情的背景是在2021年的時候，有一位音樂老師在路上行走要到他的音樂教室時，結果在中途被兩位警察盤查，這位音樂老師覺得這個盤查是不合理的，所以就拒絕，後續當然就非常遺憾，還發生所謂的「大外割」事件。後來這兩位員警就被老師一狀告上了法院，最後一審判決是兩位員警觸犯藉職務行強制罪以及涉妨害自由罪，因此這兩位就被判刑了。","針對不當盤查，其實在二十年前就已經在討論了，所以才有所謂的警職法這項法令的出現。警察認為他們是依據警職法第六條第一項第一款的規定，也就是當他們有合理懷疑就可以盤查，他們認為這個地方是犯罪和治安的熱點，他們覺得當天那個老師帶了幾件行李，而且面容很憔悴、神情疲倦，他們覺得他有毒品犯罪的嫌疑。當然這位老師非常受傷，覺得自己只不過是一個音樂老師要去上課，結果半路就被警察以這個方式來看待，他是沒有辦法接受的。請問署長，往後如果有這種類似的狀況再次發生，員警在盤查的時候如何依據所謂的SOP來進行？因為我們有一個執行路檢攔檢身分查證作業程序，到底有沒有依據這個程序來進行？"],["黃署長明昭：警職法立法通過以後，我們就訂定了盤查的相關SOP，以這個個案來講，我認為我們員警在執勤的時候逾越了比例原則，不能說他外表看起來憔悴就認定他有吸毒的情形，這恐怕是執法有過當，所以經過調查以後就移送法辦了，法院也判刑了。發生這個案例以後，我們也要求各縣市警察單位在常年訓練的時候，務必把這個案例列為教材，而且警職法以及相關的執法SOP都要列為常訓的課程來改善執法的情形。"],["羅委員美玲：署長，我想請教一下，因為我有看了你們的SOP，警察職權行使法第二十九條有提到「……對警察依本法行使職權之方法、應遵守之程序或其他侵害利益之情事，得於警察行使職權時，當場陳述理由，表示異議。」這就代表其實這位民眾是可以表示異議的，對不對？"],["黃署長明昭：對。"],["羅委員美玲：而且警察必須開出民眾異議紀錄表，可是很顯然這兩位警員並沒有做到，對不對？而且我覺得不只他們兩位沒有做到，很多警員都沒有做到，其實當民眾遇到盤查的時候，絕大部分都會配合，但還是有民眾覺得是在侵犯他的人權，他在路上走，警察居然就要盤查他，所以他就拒絕了；如果拒絕的話，其實警察就必須開出民眾異議紀錄表，對不對？"],["黃署長明昭：是，法的規範是這樣子，在落實執行方面，確實有待改善，這個我們還要再要求。"],["羅委員美玲：署長，我有調了一份資料，其實這應該是SOP裡面一定要做到，可是我們看到所謂開立民眾異議紀錄表的統計，108年全國有70件，109年有81件，110年有140件，這三年來合計不到300件，總共只有291件，這表示很多警員在盤查遇到民眾有異議的時候，其實都沒有開立所謂的紀錄表。"],["黃署長明昭：從這個統計表來看，確實有慢慢在增加，但是我們真的要感謝國人的配合度，在警察盤查的時候配合度大概都滿高的，當然我們也要求員警如果有民眾提出異議，一定要按照這個程序來辦理。"],["羅委員美玲：署長，再來還有一點，我曾經看過一些報導，很多警察都在說其實警職法很不好用，所以他們在盤查的時候都不使用警職法，一開頭都是用道交條例來切入，你怎麼看這件事情？"],["黃署長明昭：當然警察在路上執法時，各種法律都要兼顧，如果違反道交條例，當然優先用道交條例來認定和告發，這也是執法的允許。如果還有其他違反法的規定，當然也要一併執法。"],["羅委員美玲：如果他是用道交條例，認為民眾可能違反交通規定，可是你知道嗎？現在每一位警察都配有小電腦，也就是M-Police系統，如果利用這個系統發現駕駛人可能還有一些前科或犯罪紀錄，因為M-Police系統可以連結到戶政資料、警政資料等等，連前科紀錄都可以看到。如果發現他有前科紀錄，而他的盤查本來是由道交條例進入，結果合理懷疑他可能有犯罪的嫌疑，那麼在執法上面所使用的法是不是在這個時候就要加以轉換？可是我們的民眾好像也不太瞭解有這個狀況，如果轉到警職法去的話，就會進到第六條第一項第一款，也就是合理懷疑的判斷，所以這個法在這當下馬上就得要轉換了是不是？"],["黃署長明昭：執法不能用這樣子來執行，他的素行有前科的話，那只是一個參考，你要有一個合理懷疑才進到……"],["羅委員美玲：是，如果員警看他有前科紀錄，因為只要攔查他，把他的資料輸入系統的話，那麼他所有的資料都看得到，可能那個當下已經不是交通違規的事情，員警可能認為他有前科，所以就轉換了犯罪的防制、轉到合理懷疑，因為看到他有前科的資料。像這個執法當中，警察好像就是一法到底，可能就是一直用道交條例來處理，其實進入到警職法的時候，還必須取得民眾的同意，對不對？是不是這樣子？"],["黃署長明昭：如果是有合理懷疑的話，當然就可以用警職法來執行；如果是只有表徵、只有前科素行的話，這樣不能把他當成是有一個犯罪的表徵，當然不能用警職法……"],["羅委員美玲：可是很多警察還是會這麼做耶！"],["黃署長明昭：法的界定我們真的還是……"],["羅委員美玲：OK，我講了這麼多，其實我還是覺得基層警員對有一些法還不是那麼的清楚，譬如這次發生了臺灣史上第一個警員因為不當盤查而被判刑的事情，我想這是很遺憾的事，這表示警員其實還有很多需要再教育、在法制觀念上面還要再加強的地方，這是給警政署的提醒，謝謝。"],["黃署長明昭：好，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝羅召委，請陳琬惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-12","speakers":["羅美玲","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","陳琬惠","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","李德維","張宏陸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","高金素梅","黃世杰","賴品妤","林文瑞"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-07"],"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00002","1129702_00003","1129702_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬\n經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國\n專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案；二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)\n審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查時\n代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員張\n其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)繼\n續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)繼續審查委\n員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員蔡\n易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員\n羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員王美惠等22\n人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲\n彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管\n制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍\n砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案","agenda_id":"1129702_00001"}}},{"id":"148914","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148914","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c04f3ae09dfe69ee58d4f73b9825177cacbc986728e607a03229f207473fb5f34925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游毓蘭","委員發言時間":"09:20:22 - 09:28:59","影片長度":"00:08:37","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查時代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員張其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員王美惠等22人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-12"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":517,"end_time":"2023-12-07T09:28:59+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T09:20:22+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":323,"blocks":[["游委員毓蘭：（9時19分）謝謝主席。有請內政部林部長還有警政署黃署長。"],["主席：請林部長跟黃署長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["游委員毓蘭：部長好、署長好。從去年下半年開始，就陸續發生很多起社會矚目的槍擊案件，造成多人死傷，也影響了社會穩定，對治安造成衝擊。警政署統計分析顯示，改造槍枝零件日益精良，取得容易，同時又因為改造的子彈來源充沛，如果沒有及時的控管，對於治安危害程度會升高。因此，對於本次的修法，本席先肯定政府在打擊不法槍枝彈藥上的決心，但是這次的修法似乎對於合法的業者，還是有一些趕盡殺絕的疑慮。","主要的原因是我們看到現在的技術很進步，真槍跟模擬槍、玩具槍的區別越來越小，我們羅美玲召委在二個星期前，有安排到成功嶺替代役訓練中心去，其實他們現在有很多的射擊訓練都是用玩具槍，因為玩具槍可能產生模擬的效果跟真槍相較很真實，只不過是沒有殺傷力，所以真槍跟模擬槍、玩具槍的區別非常的小。而且我們臺灣玩具槍業者製造的技術可能是全世界最好的，他們跟真槍的差別有可能都只在槍管跟殺傷力上面，還有一些零附件等等其他的，就外表看起來，其實模擬槍、玩具槍都快要跟真槍一樣，包括重量什麼的。這都是因為我們科技、產業各種的越來越進步，但是民間合法的生存遊戲、射擊教育、玩具槍、娛樂產業的發展，這也是憲法保障的工作權跟財產權，我們現在修法全部禁止模擬槍，這樣會不會有寧可誤殺一百，不願意錯放一人的感覺？部長，你會不會覺得這樣修法矯枉過正？"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，我們並沒有全面禁止模擬槍，而是如你剛剛所說的，就最近治安暴力犯罪案件看起來有非常明確的一個數字，我們查獲的非制式槍枝，它的比例高達93.65%。另外，如果是在槍擊案件的時候，持非制式槍枝犯罪的比例是98.57%，非常非常的高。所以我們在相關的一個管理、管制上面，包括它的這些零件還有材質等等，的確是有需要改進的地方，所以這一次的一個修法，我們最主要是針對犯罪者的犯罪型態；第二個是合法業者的部分，這次我們也希望能夠有一些明確的規定。","你特別提到的模擬槍，我們並沒有禁止模擬槍，而是針對包括它的材質還有硬度的部分來進行相關的規範，畢竟它一方面可以擬真，但二方面它又不至於被改造之後，然後具有殺傷力。"],["游委員毓蘭：對，剛剛部長所提到的是，不管是93%或97%、98%這種，因為臺灣本來在改造槍枝的技術上，可能是全世界名列前茅的，但是我們警政署到底在偵查這些槍擊案件之中，有沒有針對哪些槍是用模擬槍的？就是你們剛剛講的那種非常擬真的模擬槍，然後拿去改造成真槍，有沒有這方面的數據？"],["黃署長明昭：跟委員報告，現在幾乎查獲到的非制式槍枝，第一個就是由模擬槍所改製而成的；第二個就是由模擬槍的零組件套裝起來而成的一個非制式槍枝，幾乎現在都是這樣子查獲的。"],["游委員毓蘭：那都有具有殺傷力嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：當然，經我們的鑑定具有殺傷力的才會移送。"],["游委員毓蘭：所以我們做了這樣的管制之後，部長跟署長，你們覺得這樣就可以完全的禁絕黑槍嗎？因為事實上，現在我們知道黑槍走私進口的管道仍然存在，還是很多的，所以有沒有辦法禁絕？"],["林部長右昌：我跟委員報告，經過這樣子的一個修法，我想我們可以把現在已經發現、瞭解的問題，幾乎都可以做個處理，我們目前發現最大的問題就是剛剛在講的改造；另外就是它的零附件，甚至包括子彈，我們只規範整顆的子彈，但是對於子彈的零件，其實我們並沒有規範。所以實際在實務上發現，會有不肖的犯罪分子，用這樣子的一個漏洞來行犯罪之實，所以這一點是我們這次要把它杜絕的。"],["游委員毓蘭：是，這也是剛剛本席提到的，我們去考察的時候才發現，哇！其實我們國內製造玩具槍、模擬槍的技術大概在全世界是獨步全球的。今天早上其實也有他們的團體、業者來立法院陳情，所以這次的修法其實還有一些爭議，而我在這個修法之中，其實本席一直很希望在修法的時候，對於消弭爭議，其中的一個辦法就是擴大他們的參與，就是外部委員的參與。所以本席提出的是，希望外部委員比例有二分之一，可是剛剛部長有提了，最少要三分之一以上，我覺得要有多元的聲音能夠進入，事實上包括保全業者也是一樣，他們有很多的技術，可能都是領先我們官方的機構。","不過最後本席還是要問一個問題，我們大法官在110年5月7號做出第803號解釋，就是兩年內應該要針對槍砲彈藥刀械許可及管理辦法之中，跟原住民自製獵槍相關的部分要進行檢討、修法，為什麼到現在都還沒有提出來呢？"],["黃署長明昭：跟委員報告，因為有一些團體，就是狩獵團體，他們有部分的意見，但是我們也開了很多次會議，現在的爭議點是在進口的獵槍價錢比較高，我們也協調國防部針對業者部分，能降低它零件的一個價格，還有整支槍枝的價格，爭議點大概就是在這裡而已。"],["游委員毓蘭：部長和署長，我要跟各位報告的原因，就是要跟您反映一下，我們三不五時會在報紙上、報導上看到有原住民拿個獵槍，騎摩托車去打獵之後，還不小心把自己給打死了。這種新聞一再的傳出，我覺得就是因為我們沒有辦法讓他們有一個合法的管道可以買到既合法又安全、有經過管理、有經過政府來監管的，可以協助他們取得比較合法、比較方便的一些獵槍。我個人是認為，都已經延宕半年以上了，我們應該要儘速，畢竟這事關我們原住民傳統文化的維護以及他們的基本權益，所以務必請警政署儘快把這個給修出來。謝謝。"],["主席（王委員美惠代）：謝謝游召委。接著請羅召委美玲。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-12","speakers":["羅美玲","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","陳琬惠","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","李德維","張宏陸","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","高金素梅","黃世杰","賴品妤","林文瑞"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-07"],"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00002","1129702_00003","1129702_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬\n經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國\n專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案；二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)\n審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查時\n代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員張\n其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)繼\n續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)繼續審查委\n員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員蔡\n易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員\n羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員王美惠等22\n人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲\n彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管\n制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍\n砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案","agenda_id":"1129702_00001"}}},{"id":"148913","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148913","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c04246a100f4b4125115de4c744a3d84f2dc986728e607a0322ea997af55ec8e5e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:06:00 - 11:22:18","影片長度":"00:16:18","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員陳超明等22人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查（一）委員黃世杰等16人、（二）委員游毓蘭等17人及（三）委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具「司法人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、併案審查（一）委員劉建國等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第十二條條文修正草案」、（二）台灣民眾黨黨團及（三）委員邱志偉等17人分別擬具「公教人員保險法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-10-8-36-24"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":978,"end_time":"2023-12-07T11:22:18+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T11:06:00+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":788,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時6分）不好意思，剛才聽到李德維委員的發言，忽然有種他下一屆不來了，好像人之將死，其言也善！請教秘書長，今天陳超明委員的提案，事實上在上次質詢的時候就談過了……"],["林秘書長志嘉：對，等於是大家的共識……"],["林委員淑芬：大家都有共識……"],["林秘書長志嘉：我們會趕快來做。"],["林委員淑芬：2年4,500元健檢，同一屆兩次費用可以合併使用，可以吧？"],["林秘書長志嘉：可以。"],["林委員淑芬：採實報實銷？"],["林秘書長志嘉：對。"],["林委員淑芬：記得我曾談到希望鼓勵院內同仁自主運動和健康促進……"],["林秘書長志嘉：有。我們總務處……"],["林委員淑芬：現在進度到哪裡？"],["林秘書長志嘉：請總務處報告一下。"],["林委員淑芬：不論是助理還是職員，院內所有的人……"],["林秘書長志嘉：積極去……"],["林委員淑芬：我們希望能與附近鄰近的運動中心特約合作，提供這些人運動和補助。"],["周處長傑：跟委員報告，我們已經洽請中正健康運動中心，就在我們附近，他說沒有問題，我們可以跟他正式……不管是用合作社方式，或立法院名義跟他簽一紙合約，他會給我們員工優待……"],["林委員淑芬：優待會是多少折？"],["周處長傑：他要請示，這個簽了就知道。"],["林委員淑芬：當然儘量要越低越好。"],["周處長傑：對……"],["林委員淑芬：他們要照他們的員工價嗎？"],["周處長傑：優惠價，不能叫員工價。"],["林委員淑芬：優惠價？"],["周處長傑：對。"],["林委員淑芬：優惠價也要實至啊！"],["周處長傑：對。"],["林委員淑芬：口惠也要實至啊！"],["林秘書長志嘉：我們會儘量爭取。"],["周處長傑：但是有一個問題，就是場館部分，像羽毛球、乒乓球的場館部分還是要排隊，沒有特權。"],["林委員淑芬：排隊？當然要排隊啊！"],["周處長傑：排隊要登記。"],["林委員淑芬：那沒問題。好，謝謝。秘書長，其實國會助理在工作上還有其他的困境。2022年臺灣大學有一篇學術論文叫「國會助理工作壓力和離職傾向研究」，該份研究是根據國會助理職業工會在2017年的調查而來，國會助理的平均年資是多久你知道嗎？"],["林秘書長志嘉：時間多久還是……"],["林委員淑芬：對，他們的平均年資。以現在立法院的助理來說，他們平均起來的國會助理平均年資是多久？"],["林秘書長志嘉：應該……"],["林委員淑芬：不知道！"],["林秘書長志嘉：可能一兩年吧！"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼要講這個？因為這個很重要！你說一、兩年？好，國會助理是立委在國會問政的臂膀，更是國家發展及制度法規上的幕後推手！根據2017年的調查，國會助理平均年資是兩年多，而年資在四年以下的高達57.8%，你覺得這樣的年資是長還是短？"],["林秘書長志嘉：這樣當然是流動性太高了！"],["林委員淑芬：流動性太高？沒錯！"],["林秘書長志嘉：一任四年……"],["林委員淑芬：對！"],["林秘書長志嘉：他大概做不到一半的時間就離開了。"],["林委員淑芬：四年一任都做不到的有57.8%，所以國會助理在立法院服務年資過短，對國家長期發展必定有相當程度的不良影響。我們國會立委都說要資深制，國會助理更是要資深制啊！結果我們的現況是國會助理是2年、2年多，由此可見這裡的工作環境和條件應該很差，立法院的工作環境和條件應該很差啦，差到大家都不想來這裡工作了。所以這一篇論文要探討的是國會助理個人屬性、職場表現、外在因素跟工作壓力的相關性，並分析國會助理工作壓力跟離職傾向之間的相關性。他除了做文獻研究以外，還做了深度訪談，他以16位現職於立法院公費助理作為訪談對象，然後發現了幾個部分，一個是受訪者普遍認為工作壓力跟離職傾向具有關聯，包含工作內容過於繁重，這本來就是，還有工作處理時效過短、薪資過低、職業生涯沒有保障且不穩定，立委任期4年一任，老闆換了他就要換工作，還有職場上的人際關係等等，都可能成為國會助理產生影響其離職傾向的工作壓力，進而成為產生離職的因素。"],["林秘書長志嘉：的確是這樣。"],["林委員淑芬：這些都是啊，工作繁重跟報酬不成比例啊，然後這一些都還跟他的工作不穩定有相關，因為一任立委4年而已。第二個，受訪者都表示應該儘速讓國會助理法制化，使國會助理的權益被保障，讓助理有完善的年資累積機制，而且要設輔導教學機制及心理輔導單位以保障國會助理的權益，進而降低國會助理的離職率。秘書長，這樣有道理嗎？"],["林秘書長志嘉：這樣是很有道理的啦，也應該這樣去做……"],["林委員淑芬：既然很有道理，那要怎麼做呢？"],["林秘書長志嘉：其實我當立委也當過5屆啦，我也很希望幫國會助理來爭取福利……"],["林委員淑芬：健檢是最簡單的啦！"],["林秘書長志嘉：儘量來爭取……"],["林委員淑芬：健檢補助是最簡單的！"],["林秘書長志嘉：現在國會助理為什麼沒有辦法納入，就是因為他的身分，他沒有公務人員的身分，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：我們現在在想的就是要解決這件事啊！"],["林秘書長志嘉：所以這個問題就變成很棘手，都會卡在這裡，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：有公務人員身分的人不見得能夠勝任國會助理的工作和專業。"],["林秘書長志嘉：沒有錯，但是因為他們沒有這個身分，所以很多的福利以及很多的保障等等就沒有辦法適用在他們身上，所以我們是不是想一個辦法，大家一起想個辦法……"],["林委員淑芬：想一個辦法？好，你去想一下啊！"],["林秘書長志嘉：看能不能跟考試院或什麼，他們提出一個……"],["林委員淑芬：你要主動去討論一下！"],["林秘書長志嘉：……一個助理的考試制度或什麼，讓這些助理有一個依據，然後可以累積，才能夠使助理有點保障，這個可能……"],["林委員淑芬：好。好啦，你去想一下啦！"],["林秘書長志嘉：這個要好好想一下……"],["林委員淑芬：現在我要再說到設置心理輔導機制，我們這裡有心理輔導的資源嗎？立法院現況。"],["林秘書長志嘉：現況是有啦。"],["林委員淑芬：有什麼？"],["林秘書長志嘉：我們的醫務室就有了。"],["林委員淑芬：醫務室？醫務室一個禮拜看幾個小時？二個小時，有沒有經常請假？醫務室很多醫生都經常請假，我們要去看醫生都看不到啊！再來，醫務室的看診沒有隱私性喔，我們都是開放空間不關門的，你要做心理輔導會到沒有關門、小小的、護理師及護理長大家都聽得到的地方去輔導嗎？"],["林秘書長志嘉：心理輔導這個領域，事實上我們真的要……"],["林委員淑芬：心理輔導這個領域，我先跟你講，勞動部……"],["林秘書長志嘉：空間的確……"],["林委員淑芬：你知道EAPs嗎？EAPs就是Employee Assistance Programs，勞動部的定義是企業為了處理員工的健康、心理或家庭問題，透過早期的員工輔導，然後去採取員工協助方案，透過服務系統的建置及專業服務的提供去預防或解決個人工作表現的相關因素，譬如工作適應、人際關係、家庭關係、健康及法律等等。所以這個EAPs包含要發現問題、問題評估及問題解決的系統，然後依據這一些需求和工作性質去選擇適當的服務模式。我們立法院助理、職員工加起來有多少人？"],["林秘書長志嘉：我們現在的確在這個部分做得不夠啦，的確如此。"],["林委員淑芬：我們加起來有多少人？我們算是一個大企業，比大企業更加的大企業耶！"],["林秘書長志嘉：我們有一千多人。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，我們有一千多人，但是我們什麼都沒有！現在我要說的是EAPs這個概念，從雇主和受僱的勞工之間，其實企業都會採取這樣一個模式，是留才久用，也解決企業裡面這些受僱員工的問題，事實上是很重要的。"],["林秘書長志嘉：好，謝謝委員對於這方面的建議。"],["林委員淑芬：我在這裡分享一個臺灣科技大學的員工協助方案給你參考，臺灣科技大學的人比我們還少喔，他們開放給教職員、駐衛警、校務基金聘用的約聘僱人員，也給領研究費項下的臨時專任助理使用，然後他們的心理諮商是特約機構合作模式，……"],["林秘書長志嘉：特約機構。"],["林委員淑芬：請臺師大的社區諮商中心的心理諮商所提供服務，服務對象我剛剛已經講了，連臨時人員都去了，服務的方式是上網填寫表單、去電預約，而且要做到身分保密，還要注重申請人的隱私，那個機構叫做心田心理諮商所，他們去之前會先填資料，包括想要去那裡談什麼，是情緒困擾、壓力調適、生涯規劃、人際關係或家庭關係，為什麼講這個，你知道吧？最近有一位立法院公報處員工下跪陳情不滿主管飆髒話威脅考績打乙等。喔，這個主管顯然有一些情緒失控的問題，這個下跪的人別無他法了，需要尋求體制外，還到下跪了，給你下跪了，遞交陳情書了，他受到了相當大的壓力，考績打乙等的壓力，他也需要輔導。對其他的國會助理來講，也需要心理輔導。","所以我要講的是，其實我們這個地方比起臺科大，比起其他的私人企業，我們真的是相當需要這個 EAPs專案啦！我們需要這個 EAPs專案，應該要儘速地來提供心理諮商的資源，因為這個壓力來源，像助理，除了老闆給他壓力、選舉的壓力之外，他也有家庭的壓力。老闆叫他要加班，現在選舉到了，老闆叫他要到南部去下鄉，然後他家庭裡面不允許他這麼做，壓力雙重，快要崩潰了。所以在這種狀況裡面，有時候他可能就是需要一些輔導的機制或是一些輔導的資源進來。","秘書長，你自己也是綜管全院，你一定可以理解到立法院的職場生活，不論是這些助理或是職員工，甚至是立委本人啦，每個人在不同場域感受到壓力強弱都不同，我們真的真的需要立法院提供這樣的資源協助，去提升助理或是職員工對個人心理健康的意識，也要積極地照顧這些助理和職員工的心理健康。"],["林秘書長志嘉：好。"],["林委員淑芬：我想4,500元照顧有形的肉體，但是心理上的、壓力上的也不亞於這4,500元的健檢，可能還更急迫。我再講一個「報導者」的文章……"],["林秘書長志嘉：我先回應一下，這個我有同感，而且也感謝委員提出了這麼好的一個方案，人家臺科大能夠做到，我想我們應該也可以做到，我們會來向臺科大學習，然後我們會儘量的在最短時間內有一個這樣的措施。"],["林委員淑芬：那明年度的預算就可以編列了，如果你們3個月研議好了，大概會有多少需求……"],["林秘書長志嘉：明年度的預算……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦，我是說你在明年4月要編預算的時候啊！"],["林秘書長志嘉：對、對、對，明年度的……"],["林委員淑芬：4月要編預算，現在年底了，大概有3個月讓你研議啊，看一下我們員工的需求啊……"],["林秘書長志嘉：沒錯，可以……"],["林委員淑芬：尋求專業所需要的資源預估是多少啊……"],["林秘書長志嘉：明年度應該就可以來編列。"],["林委員淑芬：編列預算，所以可以在後年就開始了嘛！"],["林秘書長志嘉：對、對、對，後年開始。"],["林委員淑芬：因為那的確是需要資源挹注……"],["林秘書長志嘉：沒錯。"],["林委員淑芬：的確是需要經費預算。"],["林秘書長志嘉：OK，好。"],["林委員淑芬：我們講這個是因為心理健康求助常態化是有助於降低自殺的認知可能性，在臺灣要做一個重視心理健康的政策，看起來好像是很前瞻、很創舉，可是事實上在外國，其實人家都很普遍了，而且投入很大筆經費來行動。臺大公衛學院健康行為和社區科學研究所所長張書森就說到，其實在英國他們的健保就直接支持這個諮商計畫，在澳洲，心理健康是個政治議題，他們從事政治人物的人都要提出心理健康的方案，所以大家非常看重所謂的心理健康這個層次。就個人層次來講，他也非常倡議應該要普遍認同只要有心理上的問題要去求助，可是求助這件事情是需要學習的！突然說我有壓力，但我不知道怎麼講出來，也不知道自己有壓力，甚至沒有意識到自己有壓力，他沒有辦法去求助，想要求助也不知道怎麼講、也不知道怎麼表達。所以在這種狀況裡面，心理諮商不是說我們看電影裡面躺在躺椅上，然後心理諮商師跟你講話，也不是只有這樣子而已，所以透過國家級的投入和補助，讓求助常態化可以替代自殺常態化。當然，我們立法院對於心理輔導、心理諮商這一塊還不是為了解決自殺這一塊，但我們早期介入輔導，有設資源、有設管道，讓大家可以進去。否則你看我們立法院公報處員工下跪陳情，公報處的處長把國會頻道的承辦職員叫到辦公室怒罵，不斷地以情緒怒罵，還大罵髒話，所有人都聽得到，然後威脅要給人家考績打乙等，這一些都已經失控了，的確也需要一些專業！不只是職員工，助理也很多鬱悶啦！不只是助理，立委也有很多壓力啦！所以我們期待明年度預算就可以編列，立法院的EAPs就可以上路。"],["林秘書長志嘉：好。"],["林委員淑芬：有關員工協助方案，秘書長，你承諾了，那就是我們下個階段，明年度要跟健檢預算一樣同時上路喔！"],["林秘書長志嘉：好。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["林秘書長志嘉：可以，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員的建議，很棒！"],["林委員淑芬：有壓力喔？"],["主席：沒有，很好，你講得很好。"],["林委員淑芬：要輔導喔！我要輔導。"],["主席：我們都要輔導。"],["林秘書長志嘉：好啦！到時候我們編預算的時候請大家支持。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["林委員淑芬：要專業的，錢是立法院出喔！"],["主席：我們支持啦！","接下來請邱臣遠委員、邱臣遠委員，邱臣遠委員不在。","所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","委員邱臣遠、謝衣鳯、吳琪銘所提書面質詢均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-36-24","speakers":["林思銘","曾銘宗","鄭運鵬","江永昌","湯蕙禎","游毓蘭","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","劉建國","賴香伶","李德維","林淑芬","邱臣遠","謝衣鳯","吳琪銘"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2023-12-07"],"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳超明等22人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查\n(一)委員黃世杰等16人、(二)委員游毓蘭等17人及(三)委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具「司法人員人\n事條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、併案審查(一)委員劉建國等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第十\n二條條文修正草案」、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團及(三)委員邱志偉等17人分別擬具「公教人員保險法\n第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129702_00002"}}},{"id":"148912","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148912","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c044ade76f988795d925de4c744a3d84f2dc986728e607a0322f8f891d2cf65ac865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴香伶","委員發言時間":"10:51:12 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11:00:04","影片長度":"00:08:52","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員陳超明等22人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查（一）委員黃世杰等16人、（二）委員游毓蘭等17人及（三）委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具「司法人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、併案審查（一）委員劉建國等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第十二條條文修正草案」、（二）台灣民眾黨黨團及（三）委員邱志偉等17人分別擬具「公教人員保險法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-10-8-36-24"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":532,"end_time":"2023-12-07T11:00:04+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T10:51:12+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":718,"blocks":[["賴委員香伶：（10時51分）好，謝謝主席。我想請教秘書長，昨天我們在報端，還有今天很多的報紙頭版提到，在選前關鍵時刻，有發生一個類似境外勢力造假的監聽資訊外露，這件事情我不曉得秘書長知不知道，我們立院有沒有收到任何的情資，或者是有相關的通報來跟您說這件事情？"],["林秘書長志嘉：沒有。"],["賴委員香伶：都沒有？"],["林秘書長志嘉：完全沒有。"],["賴委員香伶：因為我們看報端裡面，包括我們的副院長蔡其昌，他的名字是在被監聽的名單上。"],["林秘書長志嘉：因為我們要瞭解看看，委員，今天早上王委員也有提出這個，我們也是完全不清楚，我知道法務部調查局有說這個應該是假的。"],["賴委員香伶：應該是假的。"],["林秘書長志嘉：但是我們認為不管是真是假，至少也是要再瞭解地更清楚一些。"],["賴委員香伶：是這樣的，因為我10月26號在司法委員會也質詢過，當時我也給調查局稱讚，在一個秘密會議的紀錄裡面，有人的聲音聽起來很像是柯P，柯文哲主席，但事實上後來調查局鑑識之後說那個是假的。"],["林秘書長志嘉：是假的。"],["賴委員香伶：我覺得在我們的技術上面，深偽影音的部分已經很有進展，也做得還不錯，當然我們大家也對於這次大選到來，會不會有所謂的介選，透過一些假的文件、訊息，特別是深偽技術的部分？我在這裡想要請教，因為剛剛秘書長已經確認，我們立院沒有收到任何的情資通報，但是這一次提供出來的所謂「情治監聽」，這四個字當然我是用引號的，我是暫時用「情治監聽」這四個字，這個部分來講，好像包括立院的一些委員、政府的局處長，甚至一些縣市長都被當作設置一個假的訊息來向外界爆料，就是說這些人都被情治單位監聽，所以這當然是一個很震驚的消息。很快地我們看到法務部長跟刑事局、調查局、最高檢、廉政署、國安局都有出來講說這些可能是錯的，甚至說這是一個認知作戰，而且是境外勢力所致。","我們看到2019年的時候，就是我們這一屆立院跟總統大選的那個時刻，在2020年以前，2019年左右，法務部長蔡清祥當時也講過政治偵防是歷史名詞，也就是說，不能，也不應該有所謂過去講的這種政治偵防，但他們專業上現在鎖定的是假訊息跟境外的資金，那是在2019年，當時要選舉嘛，現在2024年1月也要選舉，所以時至4年後，整個對於假訊息的作戰、境外資金作戰跟境外勢力介選與否，應該是上升到認知作戰，可能會混擾整個社會的秩序，甚至對於很多人跟人之間關係的信任度，馬上就已經進到了一個比較具有風險跟威脅的情勢，所以想請問法務部，法務部今天是檢察司副司長列席，就這整件事情，包括就你的瞭解，現在法務部在打擊假訊息跟境外資金或境外勢力認知作戰的部分，你對你們司或是你們部裡面的瞭解，就這次的作法你覺得有沒有什麼地方可以再精進？"],["簡副司長美慧：向委員報告，誠如委員所提到的，因應明年二合一的大選，按照過去選舉的經驗，我們知道境外勢力的介選或者是假訊息，一定會比以往更加地嚴重，所以這一次在頒定的查賄工作綱領裡面，我們把查緝境外勢力介選還有查緝假訊息的部分，列為三大強韌策略之一，還有我們的重點工作。另外，我們知道要查緝這些假訊息，或者是境外勢力介選，其實必須要靠很廣泛的情資，整個偵查能量才不會被這個消耗，所以我們認為檢舉的情資非常重要，在8月22號的時候也修正發布新的鼓勵檢舉妨害選舉獎金的要點，把檢舉境外勢力介選，還有選舉賭盤的部分都納入在這一次給獎的範圍，我們全體的檢察官，還有相關的警調單位也是全力地投入查察賄選。","在假訊息的部分，我們六都的檢察署也都有成立假訊息的因應中心，由專責的主任檢察官來負責。對於假訊息，我們要求要在很短的時間當中確定它是不是假訊息，假設是假訊息，就要適時地澄清，如果這個假訊息涉嫌相關犯罪的時候，我們的所屬檢察官也會在第一時間迅速地查辦。"],["賴委員香伶：是，所以想請教的是，昨天大概傍晚的時間，就有很多媒體在詢問各個委員對這件事情的看法，到昨天晚上，邢泰釗總長大概就已經認定，這是一個監聽的資料，是境外勢力的認知作戰所為，所以我只是想要確認，你們剛剛講六都也有檢察署自己直屬的指揮系統。"],["簡副司長美慧：假訊息處理中心。"],["賴委員香伶：這個在整體上，檢察總長這邊應該會有所謂的情資跟判案的一個回報系統，所以這件事情到底是你們之前就已經知道了，還是昨天同步得知，然後你們很快地在3、4個小時內就可以認定，這個就是境外勢力的認知作戰？"],["簡副司長美慧：跟委員報告，這個事情我們也是昨天知道的，在昨天知道的第一時間，調查局跟最高檢都有進行瞭解，其實最高檢也有發布新聞稿，它認為這個是境外的伺服器把這個訊息投放到社群網站，而且裡面有一些簡體字、西元的紀年，甚至有些職稱跟電話的國碼都是有一些疑義的，所以據此，最高檢察署跟調查局初步判斷這可能應該是認知作戰。"],["賴委員香伶：瞭解。"],["簡副司長美慧：最高檢也在第一時間責成臺北地檢署分案來查處偵辦，我們希望可以適時地釐清這整個事件。"],["賴委員香伶：好，也許這個作法粗糙，我們看得出來，這個真實度很快就可以辨明，包括它是所謂的境外伺服器，所以你們很快地用這個做判準，但是如果它做的唯妙唯肖，甚至像之前，2017年我們戶政資料2,300萬筆外洩的事情，查證起來也比較困難，沒有辦法很快地釐清，所以我是希望我們今天在這裡，因為主席也是司法相關專業的律師，我是覺得這件事是不是可以請主席裁示，請調查局或者是法務部在2週內給我們一個專案的報告，好不好？就這件事情判斷基準的速度性，跟你們的專業度，我們是支持、肯定的，但是這次有5、6個單位的發言人都出來發言，到底SOP是什麼？最後，如果再次發生這樣的狀況，對於整體上國人的疑慮，你們誰會是定於一尊的主責來對外說明？不然你看，國安局、調查局，還有最高檢及刑事局等等，連我們委員，幾乎各黨團的總召、副總召都被問，所以我也覺得這需要一個更完整的SOP，讓我們也瞭解如何參與防堵認知作戰的一個角色，好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝賴香伶委員。"],["賴委員香伶：謝謝主席。"],["主席：我們就請法務部在2個禮拜內，就整起事件調查的事實經過、未來要怎麼因應，做詳細的調查書面報告，好不好？用書面報告提供給本委員會，立法院這邊就是參照了，因為你們是一個月嘛！謝謝。"],["林秘書長志嘉：好。"],["簡副司長美慧：謝謝主席，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請李德維委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-36-24","speakers":["林思銘","曾銘宗","鄭運鵬","江永昌","湯蕙禎","游毓蘭","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","劉建國","賴香伶","李德維","林淑芬","邱臣遠","謝衣鳯","吳琪銘"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2023-12-07"],"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳超明等22人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查\n(一)委員黃世杰等16人、(二)委員游毓蘭等17人及(三)委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具「司法人員人\n事條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、併案審查(一)委員劉建國等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第十\n二條條文修正草案」、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團及(三)委員邱志偉等17人分別擬具「公教人員保險法\n第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129702_00002"}}},{"id":"148911","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148911","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c04a50cd3a69c615cb35de4c744a3d84f2dc986728e607a0322d6989c2027b9690b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"10:43:48 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10:40:55","影片長度":"00:11:31","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員陳超明等22人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查（一）委員黃世杰等16人、（二）委員游毓蘭等17人及（三）委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具「司法人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、併案審查（一）委員劉建國等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第十二條條文修正草案」、（二）台灣民眾黨黨團及（三）委員邱志偉等17人分別擬具「公教人員保險法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-10-8-36-24"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":691,"end_time":"2023-12-07T10:40:55+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T10:29:24+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":569,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時29分）謝謝主席。我延續一下剛才游毓蘭委員的話題，最近很多公務人員都在熱烈討論有關衛福部的高級長官秘書處處長的婚外情、車震人妻的事情，當然網路上也在熱議，公務員服務法過去在第五條有規定，「公務員應誠實清廉，謹慎勤勉，不得有驕恣貪惰，奢侈放蕩及冶遊、賭博、吸食煙毒等足以損失名譽之行為」。","但後來也是在我們院內同仁提案修法之後，把這些全部都拿掉了，因此很多人就說，過去不得奢侈放蕩，所以現在公務人員可以奢侈放蕩了嗎？","我想請問一下銓敘部的次長，現在衛福部這位處長的行為有沒有違反相關的法令、公務員服務法，有沒有違反？"],["朱次長楠賢：公務員服務法現在第六條規定：「公務員應公正無私、誠信清廉、謹慎勤勉，不得有損害公務員名譽及政府信譽之行為」，所以這個部分……"],["王委員鴻薇：他有沒有違反第五條？"],["朱次長楠賢：第六條。"],["王委員鴻薇：你剛才……現在把它改成第六條。"],["朱次長楠賢：第六條。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那有沒有違反這個條文？"],["朱次長楠賢：我覺得這個社會會評價啦。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們是主管機關，怎麼變社會評價了？那是讓大家來評論一下就算了嗎？"],["朱次長楠賢：我覺得是有啦。"],["王委員鴻薇：有！所以按照公務員服務法來說，衛福部是他的主管，是不是應該要啟動相關的懲戒措施？"],["朱次長楠賢：這個就看衛福部怎麼去做處理……"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼叫看衛福部？如果衛福部不懲戒，因為衛福部自己的長官就這樣子啊，如果衛福部不懲戒，所以我們的公務員服務法是擺好看的嗎？不是，你是主管機關嘛！按照這樣的行為、按照我們的公務員服務法，是不是應該依法啟動相關的懲戒？"],["朱次長楠賢：服務法是一個倫理規範，但不是說銓敘部拿這個法去治各個機關，應該是各個機關回來遵循這個法，自行……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，如果衛福部不了了之、寬大為懷，因為他祈求大家原諒他，所以就原諒他，也就不了了之、也就沒事了？"],["朱次長楠賢：這個將來如果衛福部有人來問銓敘部，我們會回答他。"],["王委員鴻薇：你怎麼回答呢？"],["朱次長楠賢：我們就是會以公務員服務法相關規範……"],["王委員鴻薇：應該要懲戒，對不對？"],["朱次長楠賢：也不是，就是依照這規定要審酌啦，這樣子。"],["王委員鴻薇：本來就是嘛！不然我們公務員服務法是假的嗎？已經越修越隨便了，乾脆就把這條全部拿掉算了！損害公務人員名譽也沒有問題，我覺得這是一個影響官箴的問題，對不對？很多軍警發生這樣的行為通通都被懲戒啊，那為什麼衛福部……衛福部怎麼樣，桃花院嗎？桃花部嗎？他們就無所謂！所以我覺得這一點我們應該要站穩立場。","另外，請教一下立法院秘書長。"],["林秘書長志嘉：王委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，昨天有一個讓我們一看到其實非常非常震驚的訊息，在網路上您大概有看到，就是有很多被情治單位監聽的對象，你知道有很多我們立法院的委員嗎？您知道嗎？"],["林秘書長志嘉：監聽的對象是我們立法委員？"],["王委員鴻薇：對，暴露在網路上的公開名單裡面，有很多位是立法委員，你知道嗎？你沒有注意這個事情？"],["林秘書長志嘉：沒有注意。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那我現在告訴你，這個網頁一打開，第一個看到的是我們立法院副院長蔡其昌，而且連他的電話……因為他們都有監察電話，他的電話都在上面，而且是手機喔！我們有沒有碼掉？我們應該把它碼掉才對！然後有蔡其昌副院長、有邱泰源委員、有黃國書委員，而且黃國書委員還是二個機關、二個申請單位，這裡面當然還有好多立委的助理、裡面還有很多是立委的助理！","調查局昨天立刻出面否認這件事情，但事實上這邊所看到的資料裡面，申請單位非常多，有一些老實講我自己也覺得非常奇怪，因為有很多是陳明通、國防部長邱國正、還有國安局，但是有很多是我們的檢調單位在監聽，被監察的號碼都有手機喔！你懂我意思嗎？他如果要變造，他如何取得這些手機？所以我覺得這個問題很大。","我請問秘書長，如果我們的立法院副院長或者我們的委員有被任何單位，不管是檢調單位、或者是國安局、或者是其他單位要監聽的話，會不會知會我們立法院？"],["林秘書長志嘉：現在我們並沒有接到任何這樣子的相關訊息，我們沒有被知會過。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有被知會過，我剛才唸的這幾位立法委員在上面，有的是前立委，那我就不講……"],["林秘書長志嘉：如果有知會我們，原則上我們都會拒絕，我們認為他不應該監聽我們、也不可以監聽我們。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，您說如果有知會就會拒絕，那如果是助理呢？這裡面好多位助理，我必須講，跨政黨的立法委員助理都有，如果是助理呢？"],["林秘書長志嘉：所以這個到底是什麼狀況？其實委員對不起，我現在還不是……"],["王委員鴻薇：我看起來您一頭霧水，還有我們立法院秘書處、還有秘書處好多……"],["林秘書長志嘉：對，這到底是什麼？"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以顯然你全部都在狀況外。我要講的是，雖然調查局在第一時間否認了這件事情，可是依我所收到的情資，我認為這裡面有一些我自己覺得怪怪的，我直接講，因為有些有簡體字，我覺得很奇怪、我自己覺得很奇怪！有一些比如說是邱國正去監聽、核發人是邱國正，我們國防部長去監聽我們駐外單位的、就是中華民國駐外國的這些代表，我也覺得很奇怪，怎麼會有我們的……因為如果是真的話，我覺得這簡直是不得了的事情！"],["林秘書長志嘉：所以這個會不會是假訊息？"],["王委員鴻薇：等一下、等一下，我還沒講完！你本來：哇！鬆一口氣。但你不要鬆一口氣……"],["林秘書長志嘉：也有可能……"],["王委員鴻薇：依我所瞭解的、我得到情資，裡面有一些被監察的對象是事實、確實有被監察，有的已經案子都辦出來了，有些被監察就是……因為它的單位太多了嘛！我剛剛講的只是一些國安單位、國防部、陳明通這一些，但是有很多的檢調單位，依我所瞭解，部分確實是被監察的！"],["林秘書長志嘉：謝謝委員……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我要講的是，我沒有全盤否定這些名單，這些名單有的我自己也覺得很有疑問，因為我認為並不如調查局所說完全都是假的，但因為我覺得這裡面涉及我們立法院，包含上至副院長、立法委員、立法院助理、立法院秘書處，所以可不可以請秘書長瞭解一下，對不對？"],["林秘書長志嘉：謝謝委員，因為這個說實在我也是現在才知道啦，你剛剛也有說調查局第一時間也有否認這個不是事實，那沒關係，既然委員有提出來跟我們立法院有關的，所以我們有必要去瞭解它到底是怎麼回事。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，還是要跟這些相關的……"],["林秘書長志嘉：對！"],["王委員鴻薇：因為他們要具體……不是調查局一個新聞稿好像就唬弄過去，好不好？"],["林秘書長志嘉：是！謝謝委員提供這些訊息，不管這個訊息到底是怎麼樣，因為我們現在也還不清楚到底是什麼樣的事情，但我們總是也要瞭解看看。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我認為這是非同小可的問題喔！"],["林秘書長志嘉：有必要瞭解。"],["王委員鴻薇：對不對？"],["林秘書長志嘉：不管它是真假，我們也必須要瞭解。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，我要講的是，它如果是假的，問題也很大，因為這裡面說實在的，那是政治風暴了！如果是真的，我也要講就是說，這個外洩也非常離譜，如果有一些相關的檢調單位他們確實在查一些案子，所以有一些是刑事辦案，他們在查一些案子，但是這些被監察的對象被曝光也是很嚴重的事情！你同不同意？對不對？假的、真的，我覺得都是很大條的事情，所以請秘書長，至少我剛剛講到的，我想其他人你可能也管不到嘛！因為它這裡面還有一些甚至是軍方的或者是地方的民意代表，很多啦，非常非常多！自己情治單位也有很多人被監聽。秘書長，你什麼時候可以給我們委員會一個答復？"],["林秘書長志嘉：因為這個狀況到底是怎麼樣我們也不知道，但是我們會儘快去瞭解，然後告訴委員會這是一個什麼樣的情形，好不好？我們會儘量。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，因為這麼多耶！還有好多助理也有在裡面，好不好？"],["林秘書長志嘉：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請秘書長把整個調查結果到時候再給我們司法及法制委員會，好不好？"],["林秘書長志嘉：好，我們來瞭解。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["林秘書長志嘉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請陳玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-36-24","speakers":["林思銘","曾銘宗","鄭運鵬","江永昌","湯蕙禎","游毓蘭","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","劉建國","賴香伶","李德維","林淑芬","邱臣遠","謝衣鳯","吳琪銘"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2023-12-07"],"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳超明等22人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查\n(一)委員黃世杰等16人、(二)委員游毓蘭等17人及(三)委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具「司法人員人\n事條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、併案審查(一)委員劉建國等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第十\n二條條文修正草案」、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團及(三)委員邱志偉等17人分別擬具「公教人員保險法\n第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129702_00002"}}},{"id":"148908","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148908","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c04dc14b90ac9e604505de4c744a3d84f2dc986728e607a0322fc2af0c2ea075b345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游毓蘭","委員發言時間":"10:19:58 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"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳超明等22人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查\n(一)委員黃世杰等16人、(二)委員游毓蘭等17人及(三)委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具「司法人員人\n事條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、併案審查(一)委員劉建國等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第十\n二條條文修正草案」、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團及(三)委員邱志偉等17人分別擬具「公教人員保險法\n第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129702_00002"}}},{"id":"148906","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148906","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c04d92f6cc1c87595b75de4c744a3d84f2dc986728e607a0322b517586607ff58365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"09:53:11 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10:02:23","影片長度":"00:09:12","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員陳超明等22人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查（一）委員黃世杰等16人、（二）委員游毓蘭等17人及（三）委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具「司法人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、併案審查（一）委員劉建國等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第十二條條文修正草案」、（二）台灣民眾黨黨團及（三）委員邱志偉等17人分別擬具「公教人員保險法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-10-8-36-24"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":552,"end_time":"2023-12-07T10:02:23+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T09:53:11+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":454,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（9時53分）謝謝主席，我還是先就教秘書長。"],["林秘書長志嘉：是。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長，我想就今天立法院組織法第三十二條的修正，秘書長也支持……"],["林秘書長志嘉：我支持。"],["林委員思銘：非常感謝喔！"],["林秘書長志嘉：感謝召委你排這個議程。"],["林委員思銘：但是現在就它的實施日期秘書長有提出修正動議，到底我們現在是要從明年還是從後年開始？"],["林秘書長志嘉：因為今年來不及嘛！最快就是從……我們這裡的修正動議有提出是在114年1月1號就實施。"],["林委員思銘：所以是後年的1月1號，明年編預算，明年的預算會期再編？"],["林秘書長志嘉：對，明年預算會編進來，然後後年就實施。"],["林委員思銘：OK，謝謝秘書長。"],["林秘書長志嘉：然後把它法制化。"],["林委員思銘：OK，接下來我再請勞動部。次長，我想勞動部年年設定減災目標，部長也喊出安穩工作、安心職場、安全勞動的三安政策，標榜要提升職災預防、重建及補償的勞工職業災害保險及保護法也已經於去年的5月1號開始施行，擴大勞工的職業災害保險對象。為持續降低我國職場的危害風險，請問勞動部職安署對於這個三安有提出什麼樣的政策推動？因為去年勞工職業災害保險及保護法已經通過了，通過這個法律之後，你們如何推動這個三安的政策？有沒有什麼政策的策略？"],["朱次長楠賢：報告委員，是要請勞動部回答嗎？"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["彭副組長鳳美：報告主席，勞動部針對降災的一些策略部分，目前我們職安署針對所有適用職安法的勞工減災的部分，我們針對2024年到2030年擬定了一個7年的減災策略，大概針對於職災千人率以及勞工職業健康關注的健康照護率，以及針對於職災勞工的復工、重建這一部分，我們大概有擬定了一些策略，也報給部長，經過部長核定，大概預計明年會開始實施。","針對於近期一些職災的部分，我們也有針對一些高風險勞工的部分，譬如說針對營造業的部分，目前是職災最高的一個行業，我們也有擬定一些專案的計畫，責成各勞動檢查機構就……"],["林委員思銘：你是專委嘛？"],["彭副組長鳳美：我是副組長。"],["林委員思銘：職安署是不是在去年有推動111年職場安全衛生減災重點策略？"],["彭副組長鳳美：去年有實施，我們針對明年一些規劃的部分也有擬定了一些相關的策略。"],["林委員思銘：所以每一年都訂定相關的減災策略嗎？"],["彭副組長鳳美：是。"],["林委員思銘：我想請問你，那去年實際執行的成效如何？有沒有統計？"],["彭副組長鳳美：是針對職災……"],["林委員思銘：2022年的職災死亡率是創6年來新高，你知道人數是多少嗎？"],["彭副組長鳳美：這部分抱歉，我可能要找一些相關的資料，因為這部分不是我這邊……"],["林委員思銘：是320人，比前1年多了很多，創6年來的新高，比2021年增加42人，所以我想問的是，你們雖然有減災的策略，但是看起來完全沒有成效，這個策略沒有達到它應有的成效。既然部長講出三安的一個政策，但是看起來你們推動的策略並沒有達到它的成效。我再請問，我們在111年12月29日訂定的職場安全健康提升策略，那個策略的內容你知道嗎？"],["彭副組長鳳美：這部分大概是針對一些高風險行業我們有一些專案監督檢查的計畫，至於健康的部分，譬如說，針對化學品的一些高風險的事業單位，我們有針對這部分去做一個專案的檢查，像近期常發生的一些侷限空間的職業災害，和過去針對因應氣候變遷裡面高氣溫的一些勞工危害的部分，我們大概都有實施相關的專案檢查。","剛剛委員提到就減災策略沒有達到效益這一部分，確實我們也有去做一些滾動檢討，今年大概針對一些……譬如說，之前的一些火災案的部分，確實有一些勞工不幸發生職災的部分，我們大概也針對這些產業別去擬定相關的精進策略。"],["林委員思銘：副組長，我想你們是很注重加強安全衛生的監督檢查效能，但是今年發生了明揚大火，我們就看出對於職災的預防，我們的檢查還有監督的效能並沒有達到它一定的成效。其實我想告訴我們勞動部的是說，勞動工作者因為工作犧牲不是簡單一個統計數字這麼簡單，因為背後代表的是造成很多家庭的破碎，所以我希望勞動部本於主管機關之責，實質進行相關查核機制的檢討與改善。策略定在那裡，但是整個執行面好像並沒有實際去做得很澈底，所以這個部分希望能夠做檢討及改善。"],["彭副組長鳳美：是，遵照委員指示辦理。"],["林委員思銘：好，你請坐。","另外我想請問法務部檢察司，根據媒體報導，司法官學院接獲5位女同學指控1位男學員經常會在雙方互動時藉機肢體接觸，最誇張的是有一次學員之間外出用餐，這位男學員A原本坐在女同學的右手邊，卻不斷站起來，假意要和另一邊的男同學搭肩，導致女學員被迫靠在A的懷裡，除此之外，A在講話時還緊靠女生的臉。據悉，被害人原本認為大家將來都要在司法界並肩作戰，並沒有太大的反應，但是在一旁的學員看不下去，以手機錄影存證，並持檔案和司法實務界討論，有司法官看過之後，直言實在很噁心，還有法界人士評價該男學員很可能就是刻意為之來騷擾女同學。所以我想請問，對於這個事件，司法官學院有關性平教育的課程安排得如何？上課的方式為何？"],["簡副司長美慧：報告委員，委員所提的這個事件，司法官學院已經進行內部的調查，已經在調查的程序當中。性平的部分，因為是一個很重要的議題，所以在司法官學院整個培訓的過程當中，我們有納入相關的課程。發生這個事情確實我們也覺得很遺憾，相關的部分學院會持續地調查。"],["林委員思銘：副司長，這些都是準司法官，未來面對相關不管是性騷擾案件，都要有很正確的態度，如果還未擔任司法官之前，對於性騷擾的觀念就已經不正確，我們很擔心他未來擔任司法官以後會做出偏頗的認定。"],["簡副司長美慧：報告委員，我們都用最高的道德標準在要求我們司法的人員。"],["林委員思銘：我想性平的部分，希望未來司法官學院在整個教育方面可能要多加一點這種課程，告訴這些準司法官性平教育的重要性。"],["簡副司長美慧：是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員思銘：所以我們希望司法單位都要更注重其內部的性別平等價值觀，並加強相關的教育宣導。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林思銘委員的發言。"],["主席（林委員思銘）：接下來請湯蕙禎召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-36-24","speakers":["林思銘","曾銘宗","鄭運鵬","江永昌","湯蕙禎","游毓蘭","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","劉建國","賴香伶","李德維","林淑芬","邱臣遠","謝衣鳯","吳琪銘"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2023-12-07"],"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳超明等22人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查\n(一)委員黃世杰等16人、(二)委員游毓蘭等17人及(三)委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具「司法人員人\n事條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、併案審查(一)委員劉建國等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第十\n二條條文修正草案」、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團及(三)委員邱志偉等17人分別擬具「公教人員保險法\n第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129702_00002"}}},{"id":"148905","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148905","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c0499df49190c8b13865de4c744a3d84f2dc986728e607a03229dce577f35eaa5d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"江永昌","委員發言時間":"09:34:16 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09:53:06","影片長度":"00:18:50","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員陳超明等22人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查（一）委員黃世杰等16人、（二）委員游毓蘭等17人及（三）委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具「司法人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、併案審查（一）委員劉建國等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第十二條條文修正草案」、（二）台灣民眾黨黨團及（三）委員邱志偉等17人分別擬具「公教人員保險法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-10-8-36-24"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":1130,"end_time":"2023-12-07T09:53:06+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T09:34:16+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":339,"blocks":[["江委員永昌：（9時34分）謝謝召集人。就教於秘書長，請問一下立法委員可不可以有外國籍？"],["林秘書長志嘉：立法委員不可以有外國籍。"],["江委員永昌：規定在哪裡？"],["林秘書長志嘉：現在是國籍法第二十條相關規定。"],["江委員永昌：好，那就很奇怪，其實你要知道，那為什麼這次總統、副總統有沒有外國籍，社會譁然，最後有去查證，你知道為什麼嗎？難道也是看國籍法？事實上前面這裡有一個是，總統副總統選罷法當中直接就在裡面寫不可以具有外國籍，那麼在他們要登記的時候，就直接授權主管機關或中選會相關機關可以去做查證，也就是兩個加起來，當然有國籍法，可是前面一開始在總統副總統選罷法當中就明白告訴你不行。那立法委員是公職嗎？"],["林秘書長志嘉：立法委員是公職。"],["江委員永昌：對，也是廣義的公務員，等一下我會講到公務人員任用法第二十八條，我現在先講了，但是我們民選公職的選罷法當中，卻沒有把不得具有外國籍直接寫在裡面，後來又去看國籍法當中，就是擔任立法委員不得具有外國籍，但是又沒有授權你，沒有像總統副總統選罷法當中直接規定，所以就沒有授權你去查，因此我們搞什麼你知道嗎？我們搞切結書啊！這很不好，我不曉得就是為什麼我們這麼長久以來，其實以前也有立法委員發生過啊！結果我告訴你，後來一追下去之後，他所有的刑事判決，偽造文書不起訴，我就不要講哪個立法委員了，前任立法委員，利用職務詐取財務罪是無罪，然後行政上面請求返還他任內的薪資、助理費、補助費、俸給、給付等等，法院都判不必返還。也就是我們對這個事情這麼重視，但是其實我們進來的時候是寫切結書，那我們發生事情的時候，什麼都無罪、什麼都沒事，而給付也不用返還。","這兩個東西要補正，一個是我認為，立法院去想修法，民選公職這麼多，對不對？起碼我們立法委員是高度重視，在這當中我們不要再像其他的民選公職一樣，就是寫個切結書，不是、不是！我們自己升等，其實可以啊！授權你去查證，要不然現在如果萬一發生的時候，你要知道，如果我們選上之後，才發現在選之前已經具有外國籍身分的時候，是直接由立法院，立法委員是由立法院直接免除他的職務喔！其他的公務員假如用公務人員任用法，是在他的機關被他的機關免職，我們是直接被立法院喔！立法院靠什麼？沒有！靠你的切結書，到時候社會輿論、有人檢舉怎麼樣的時候，我們再匆匆忙忙請相關單位，也許拜託內政部、外交部再去跟國外查，所以我們不敢立法進階去做授權查證是怕什麼？怕一旦我們有授權立法院查證的時候，反而變成立法院為立法委員是否具有外國籍來背書，是怕這個嗎？還是怕人力、物力耗費頗大，我們做不完嗎？我剛剛講，光是付出去的給付沒有追回來，那個錢就很多啊！拿來辦這些都夠用。我說也許不要擴大到所有的民選公職，國會這一層一定要把關住啊！請回答我。"],["林秘書長志嘉：江委員，原則上是這樣子，對立法委員應該是，他能不能當選等等有一定的程序，所以對立法委員原則上我們是信任的原則……"],["江委員永昌：我不認為如此。"],["林秘書長志嘉：所以他只要簽切結書，因為我們的切結書就是依照國籍法第二十條相關規定問他說，本人就職第幾屆立委時未取得國籍，他如果勾是，我就是這樣子，這是我的承諾，我們信任他嘛！對不對？"],["江委員永昌：你們給人家勾兩條啦！一個是勾說你是不是有外國籍。"],["林秘書長志嘉：對。"],["江委員永昌：另外你們給人家勾的選項就是，如果你有的話，請你去放棄……"],["林秘書長志嘉：一年內。"],["江委員永昌：然後你一年之內……"],["林秘書長志嘉：這也是依照法規規定的處理。"],["江委員永昌：秘書長，你聽我講，權衡輕重，你就會發現，當民選公職你說用信任、用切結的方式，然後公務人員任用法第二十八條當中第一項第二款，具有外國籍也不行啊！如果任用後，發現他在任用的時候具有外國籍身分，那是撤銷任用耶！還要追還，坦白講他們也不是授權查證，是靠具結書，所以我說連我們立委都靠切結了，而公務機關對公務人員是否具有外國籍，不得任用、撤銷任用，它也在那邊搞具結，但至少人家還要追還喔！萬一你被檢舉，查出來我會追還。"],["林秘書長志嘉：我們也是追還喔！我們也是追喔！"],["江委員永昌：你用哪一條追還？"],["林秘書長志嘉：我們也是像法律上這樣……"],["江委員永昌：沒有、沒有、沒有、沒有，我剛剛講某位前立委……"],["林秘書長志嘉：我知道，是……"],["江委員永昌：等等你去查，如果秘書長講……"],["林秘書長志嘉：是法院沒有判他還……"],["江委員永昌：對啊！"],["林秘書長志嘉：但是我們有去追。這是兩回事，對不對？"],["江委員永昌：法律有站在你這一邊你才追得到；法律不站在你這邊，我剛剛講了，他不管是偽造文書跟詐取財物都是無罪。"],["林秘書長志嘉：因為他至少是欺騙我們嘛！"],["江委員永昌：不、不……"],["林秘書長志嘉：至少是欺騙我們啊！"],["江委員永昌：不、不、不，不是……"],["林秘書長志嘉：我們跟他說，你沒有取得外國國籍……"],["江委員永昌：不是，我認為立法委員來國會服公職，不是靠立法院秘書長、立法院院長、副院長對立法委員的信任，不是、不是，他是糟蹋國會尊嚴啦！我覺得其實應該大方授權，不要去擔心，你怕到時候去，外國政府不配合或什麼的，就是你授權我查證，結果我查不出來，反而變成你的背書，我認為不要去擔心這個，該做的事情就要做。"],["林秘書長志嘉：不是，委員，我們也很想做，但是這個一定是有它執行上的困難，因為如果我們變成一個查證機構的話，我們要有很多權力，而且……"],["江委員永昌：我認為應該要有。"],["林秘書長志嘉：你知道外國的政府有很多根本跟我們沒有任何邦交關係，你透過外交部，外交部做查證的工作，事實上，它也是有很多困難的地方……"],["江委員永昌：所以我今天……"],["林秘書長志嘉：如果立法院必須對所有的國家做查證的話，至少有100多個國家，立法院是不是都要去查證他沒有國籍，事實上，這樣子我們做不來啦！"],["江委員永昌：每一次立法委員如果有這樣的事情的時候，都是頭條，都是大事情……"],["林秘書長志嘉：沒有錯……"],["江委員永昌：該不會就是因為歷屆的立法院都只有用信任這樣來看待？我今天講了，其實我之前去詢問公務人員任用法主管機關，不管我問人總，不管我問銓敘部，坦白講，我當然考量到每個公務人員都要去查查不完，但是連立法委員就這麼樣113個席次，我們立法院自己公然跟人家講我們做不到，每次都是有問題的時候，大家來推諉，對不對？我認為這樣不對，我也沒有擴及到全部的民選公職啊！"],["林秘書長志嘉：不是，我們當然只對我們立法委員，可是一個立法委員……"],["江委員永昌：你要知道這裡面不是什麼信不信任，也不是這是資格不資格，這裡面還包含國安問題，你知道嗎？它已經升級到其實應該去檢視每一個身為中華民國的立法委員對國家應有的責任、對國家應有的義務、對自己應該有的要求，對不對？"],["林秘書長志嘉：對啊！所以……"],["江委員永昌：那你就用信任……"],["林秘書長志嘉：他必須照實以告，他如果沒有，他就要講沒有……"],["江委員永昌：但是從過去到現在，就是有……"],["林秘書長志嘉：他如果欺騙，他就是欺騙行為，他要負責啊！"],["江委員永昌：他負什麼責？"],["林秘書長志嘉：他當然要負責，他就是欺騙行為，我們會告他啊！"],["江委員永昌：最後你免除他職務的時候……"],["林秘書長志嘉：可以免除他職務啊！"],["江委員永昌：他什麼罪都沒有啊！"],["林秘書長志嘉：怎麼會沒有罪？"],["江委員永昌：你去看那個判決，判決都無罪。"],["林秘書長志嘉：當然他的判決是那樣子，是不是對他的判決永遠就是這樣子，我們還保持質疑，但是……"],["江委員永昌：好，秘書長，我總結你的話，你就是因為世界上國家這麼多，所以我們實在是沒有能力去查證……"],["林秘書長志嘉：好啦！委員……"],["江委員永昌：不是、不是，你要告訴我，你是站在國家安全、國家責任、立法委員義務，還是你是站在人力、物力不足，無從查證，還是你擔心查了如果沒查好，反而會是幫他們背書，但是你不能全部丟給你們對我信任，不能這樣子啦！"],["林秘書長志嘉：我是覺得這個事項我們這樣的處理在整個規劃裡面可以說是可以執行，而且也是相當適合的一個方式，我是這麼認為。"],["江委員永昌：好，我問你，但是總是發生事情的時候，你們就會行文相關單位去查了，行文外交部外館，從內政部移民署……"],["林秘書長志嘉：當然有人質疑的時候，我們都會去查，如果……"],["江委員永昌：好，我現在就要請教您，以後是怎麼樣？比方湯蕙禎、林思銘、江永昌今天問一問，新聞寫出來了，我說你們以後啟動對我們的信任調查是靠什麼要件？你總要有一個機制吧！你也不是今天院長、副院長、秘書長高興了，這個人新聞很大，查一下，或者這個人新聞很大，沒關係，這只是道聽途說，那個人其實我們有所懷疑，不會吧！你不會是靠這個吧！你至少告訴我，如果你都只靠信任，只靠切結，我沒有擴及到全部的公務員，我沒有擴及到全部的民選公職，我現在就講113席的立法委員，包括正副院長，你總要有一個SOP吧！就是當什麼事情到什麼時候，我們那張切結書形同廢紙，我們又沒有授權給你們的時候，你們是依照什麼東西去查我們，還是不是靠你們查，是靠內政部依照國籍法當中我們不可以任公職啟動調查？我不曉得，因為根據公職人員選罷法當中沒有，立法院的規則沒有，回頭來看，就是一個國籍法……"],["林秘書長志嘉：因為他違反國籍法嘛！"],["江委員永昌：連公務人員任用法第二十八條第一項第二款也都與我們是有距離的，你沒辦法、你沒標準、你沒有作業規範，我都不知道，我今天就在這邊說我懷疑湯蕙禎和林思銘，我今天就在這裡講，講完了呢？"],["林秘書長志嘉：委員，是這樣子……"],["江委員永昌：不、不，這要對全體國人來負責，不要每一次……"],["林秘書長志嘉：我知道，如果你要立法院去查證……"],["江委員永昌：不是、不是，就是至少我們……"],["林秘書長志嘉：你至少也要有一個法令依據，讓我們有依據去查，對不對？"],["江委員永昌：最簡單，我們不是寫切結書給你們，我們寫授權書給你們，就好像總統、副總統寫的就是授權書，你知道我們公務人員體系，公務人員任用法第二十八條，如果碰到第一項第二款的時候，不得為外國國籍身分，他們是寫具結書，我知道那個範圍都比較大，因為非常多人，不可能逐一去查，但是起碼國會自律，以後立委關於外國國籍不是寫切結書給你們，那個信任是假的，因為就是有人犯錯、犯過，他……"],["林秘書長志嘉：但是原則上……"],["江委員永昌：我們寫授權書給你們……"],["林秘書長志嘉：委員，我知道，你這樣子的考量，我想也是一種方法，但是……"],["江委員永昌：但是授權給你們不是你們去查，你們一旦拿到這個授權之後，就可以會相關的部會機關……"],["林秘書長志嘉：委員，原則上，我們對於立法委員的信任，這個信任，我覺得還是非常重要，因為你當一個立委，你被人民所付託，你當然要誠實以告，你連這個誠實都沒有，我覺得當然你就變成欺騙我們，是你欺騙我們，所以如果用這個切結書的方式，事實上，對於立法委員的尊重，還有對於整個執行上面，我覺得目前來講應該還是一個最好的方式。"],["江委員永昌：秘書長，我的重點是這個，單一立法委員不值得信任……"],["林秘書長志嘉：不值得信任是立法委員的問題啊！"],["江委員永昌：我把這句話講完，我把這句話講完，但整體的國會值得人民信賴，所以不要發生事情的時候立法院來發一個新聞稿，說那個立法委員切結寫假的，謝謝大家！不是吧！我們信賴的是國會……"],["林秘書長志嘉：沒有錯，我們……"],["江委員永昌：我跟你講，立法委員，各區域，包含不分區，是百工百業、形形色色、各樣的民眾，大家不同的角度選擇出來的民意代表，對不對？我們現在是排黑排得很嚴重，但是過去也有更生人當選立法委員，有的東西不是靠信任，我們要信任的是國會，我們要信賴國會，不是靠立法委員對立法院秘書長的切結書……"],["林秘書長志嘉：沒有、沒有，你不是信任我，你信任……"],["江委員永昌：國會、國會，所以你要維持國會……"],["林秘書長志嘉：我們是國家的……"],["江委員永昌：是、是、是，所以您是不是應該要維持我們的國會被民眾信任……"],["林秘書長志嘉：當然。"],["江委員永昌：是嘛！我是基於這一點啊！"],["林秘書長志嘉：是啊！我們目前所做的方式就是這樣子啊！"],["江委員永昌：不、不、不，您剛剛的講法都是立法委員自己切結，以昭公信，到時候說你看你的切結亂寫……"],["林秘書長志嘉：不是，我是覺得，一般來講，譬如我們進到美國海關等等或者是有一些地方，他也是叫你，你有沒有帶毒品，你自己切結，你寫沒有，我信任你沒有，但是如果你有，我抓到當然是重懲，因為你欺騙我們，你怎麼可以這樣做，那是你個人的問題，對於立法委員，我們認為一個立法委員既然已經是一個立法委員，而且他可能是人民所託或者是政黨所託的，我們原則上就以信任……"],["江委員永昌：不、不、不，秘書長，今天司法院也有來……"],["林秘書長志嘉：我們告訴他很清楚……"],["江委員永昌：您是在講刑事上、偵查上的不自證己罪，還是你在講有一個人帶毒品要過海關，自己還寫我有帶毒品……"],["林秘書長志嘉：不是、不是，委員，原則上……"],["江委員永昌：不會發生這種事吧！我再講一次，在座哪一個有理性的告訴我，誰攜帶毒品過海關還會自己寫我有帶毒品……"],["林秘書長志嘉：不是，不是只有毒品，還有錢財……"],["江委員永昌：秘書長，我很尊重你，但是你這個扯遠了……"],["林秘書長志嘉：原則上……"],["江委員永昌：要把它拉回來，我在講的是國會，你不要把它丟給單一立法委員的切結，我知道你沒有……"],["林秘書長志嘉：好，如果……"],["江委員永昌：我只能說也許您現下沒有答案，但國人的期待不是如此……"],["林秘書長志嘉：好、好……"],["江委員永昌：我今天的詢答真的是心中把立法院放在非常高的位置……"],["林秘書長志嘉：謝謝委員……"],["江委員永昌：我沒有擴及到其他民選公職，今天考試院也有來，我沒有擴及到全部的公務人員，但就113席（含正副院長）不具外國籍，這個已經到國安的層次，甚至是國家的義務跟責任以及國會的信賴、國會的信任，這不該只是靠那一張切結，再研究看看、再想想看。"],["林秘書長志嘉：委員，原則上我也感謝你的發言，事實上你所提的任何一些意見，包括一些立法院的條例，其實長久以來我都非常佩服，因為我覺得你常常看到一些我們沒有看到的，但是針對這一個部分，你所提的意見，原則上我還是會把它接納，而且我們也會回去好好再想，除了切結之外是不是還有更好的方式來做這樣子的問題，但是我們對立法委員的尊重我們還是會維持，只是你所提的這些，我們是不是可以將切結改成授權，這樣子的方式會更好，我感謝委員所提出來的方法。"],["江委員永昌：還有後面這個，公務人員任用法規定，如果任用後發現，原來他任用時已具外國籍，當他被撤銷任用的時候，他是要追還給付喔！在我們立法院，立法委員就算被發現，原來你就職了，也沒有在1年內放棄什麼的，你去查一下，因為我最後看到的是，我們雖然要追，但是於法無據，沒什麼可以追，這個也去……"],["林秘書長志嘉：這一點也很重要，謝謝委員提出這一點，你講的這些事情我們會好好的研究一下，也許你這樣的意見，還有將來如果說他真的等於是欺瞞我們，他本身本來就有外國籍，這樣子的話我們將來要追討他的一些薪資、俸餉等等也有一個依據，所以我覺得這個我們一併來把它考量。"],["江委員永昌：因為這次的事件傷害很深，人家說，你有沒有外國籍？他說他原來已經在立法院做不分區，還讓子彈飛了二個禮拜，在那邊講來講去，這沒有道理，這對國會的形象其實是傷害很大。"],["林秘書長志嘉：事實上……好啦！我覺得我們還是接納委員的意見，我們來好好考慮一下。"],["江委員永昌：我想很多我們的國民說，原來是切結喔！都不好意思講說，真好笑。但是我覺得我們應該嚴肅看待，秘書長，我是很尊重你，但我覺得這個題目應該要更努力一些。"],["林秘書長志嘉：好，我非常感謝委員您所提出的這個善意，的一個建議，而且你這個建議的確也值得我們深思來考慮，我們會把它納入來考慮，也許如果找到一個更好的方法，我們會來做處理，謝謝委員。"],["江委員永昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席（湯委員蕙禎代）：謝謝江永昌委員。","下一位請我們的召委林思銘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-36-24","speakers":["林思銘","曾銘宗","鄭運鵬","江永昌","湯蕙禎","游毓蘭","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","劉建國","賴香伶","李德維","林淑芬","邱臣遠","謝衣鳯","吳琪銘"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2023-12-07"],"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳超明等22人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查\n(一)委員黃世杰等16人、(二)委員游毓蘭等17人及(三)委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具「司法人員人\n事條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、併案審查(一)委員劉建國等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第十\n二條條文修正草案」、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團及(三)委員邱志偉等17人分別擬具「公教人員保險法\n第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129702_00002"}}},{"id":"148904","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148904","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c0418cfed500014ec335de4c744a3d84f2dc986728e607a0322a8368258a6bc0b115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭運鵬","委員發言時間":"09:23:21 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09:34:11","影片長度":"00:10:50","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員陳超明等22人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查（一）委員黃世杰等16人、（二）委員游毓蘭等17人及（三）委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具「司法人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、併案審查（一）委員劉建國等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第十二條條文修正草案」、（二）台灣民眾黨黨團及（三）委員邱志偉等17人分別擬具「公教人員保險法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-10-8-36-24"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":650,"end_time":"2023-12-07T09:34:11+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T09:23:21+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":266,"blocks":[["鄭委員運鵬：（9時23分）主席、各位同仁，大家好，首先請教一下林志嘉秘書長，我們組織法的修正要把我們的公費助理明確化，讓他有文康補助費跟健檢的費用，我們上一次在質詢的時候也有很多委員問到。"],["林秘書長志嘉：沒錯。"],["鄭委員運鵬：根據職業安全衛生法第二十條的規定，是不是本來就應該編列？"],["林秘書長志嘉：本來上次在第八屆的時候我們把這個部分刪掉了，所以現在如果要再編列的話，最好是用一個法源依據來做處理。"],["鄭委員運鵬：這是主計總處給我們的建議，最好有一個法源，等於是另外立一個科目再來編列，比較不會違反之前刪除的決議。"],["林秘書長志嘉：沒有錯，是這樣子。"],["鄭委員運鵬：好，那我聽起來大概也沒有委員對這一筆文康費跟健檢費用有特別的意見，畢竟職業安全衛生法就有規定，一般雇主也有編列。"],["林秘書長志嘉：是。"],["鄭委員運鵬：現在我是提一個修正動議，比較細緻化，看我們立法院這邊覺得可不可以，因為你有編列就要領嘛。立委的助理我認為跟一般公司也好，跟一般公務人員也好，比較不一樣的地方是公費助理有薪資上限，也有人數上限，譬如我們服務處多的，我們一定要自己找財源，我們自己出錢去請，也有自費的，那自費沒有一樣的標準，這是我們做雇主的自己去解決，這個沒關係。但是現在如果第三十二條修正通過，對於助理怎麼領，你們有沒有想法？一般公司可能就是從什麼福委會……"],["林秘書長志嘉：所以針對修法我們有提出一個修正意見，就是細節部分還是要我們來訂，但是弄一個實施日期。"],["鄭委員運鵬：細節你覺得是你們訂，我們的建議是既然有助理工會，由工會訂，你覺得可不可以？"],["林秘書長志嘉：助理工會訂我覺得還是比較不好。"],["鄭委員運鵬：有些公司是由福委會或工會去訂，然後去跟他們申請，他們比較瞭解勞工的狀況。如果是你們訂，你們就要負全責，我也不認為助理工會會上下其手或有什麼弊端，你們想看看。"],["林秘書長志嘉：不是，我覺得我們應該承擔這個責任，所以由我們來訂，訂完之後，因為助理工會都會定期改選，如果由立法院訂定，會比較穩定，我們這樣來進行，我覺得會對助理的一些……"],["鄭委員運鵬：這我尊重你們。"],["林秘書長志嘉：我覺得會比較完善。"],["鄭委員運鵬：我不認為哪一個方式有弊端，畢竟第八屆之前就有這個預算，所以你們照著你們可以負責任的方式，不過我建議也尊重一下助理工會的看法。"],["林秘書長志嘉：我們一定會跟助理工會好好商量，然後要用對他們最有利的方式來做，把它訂出來，那由我們來負責，因為這個錢主計總處還是會撥給我們，我們來處理。"],["鄭委員運鵬：好，如果你們要負責，我沒有意見。","接下來要請教勞動部的黃專門委員，今天有委員提案修正公教人員保險法第三十六條，有關生育給付條件的放寬，也是比照其他職業類別的條件，因為像農保、國民年金保險法都沒有那個時間別，所以在這一點上，銓敘部是贊成，但是後來會衍生一個問題，就是如果我們把這些保險有詐領疑慮的時間別都拿掉了，最後會剩下勞保沒有給付，勞保還有時間別，會不會有這個問題？你聽得懂我的意思嗎？勞保的給付還留有比照辦理的280天、181天早產、分娩的這些規定，如果今天我們把公教保險法的時間別拿掉，是不是剩下勞保還有這個不平等條款？"],["黃專門委員琴雀：是的。"],["鄭委員運鵬：那你認為還有需要保留嗎？"],["黃專門委員琴雀：跟委員報告，我們國家的各社會保險是按照職域的不同有不同的相關規定，所以它的請領條件、給付標準都是不一樣的，今天有關這個公保法要刪除日數的規定，因為這是涉及公保的規定，我們是尊重公保主管機關銓敘部的意見。至於在勞保部分，委員比較關切的就是，這邊刪掉了，如果勞保還保留給付的日數的話，會不會有一些問題。跟委員報告，其實公務人員保險跟勞保的適用對象是不一樣的，勞保的適用對象……"],["鄭委員運鵬：這當然啊！是前面適用的對象名稱就不一樣，當然適用對象不一樣。"],["黃專門委員琴雀：對，因為我們的對象其實很多元，特別還有外籍移工的問題，那我們如果把勞保的日數刪掉的話，因為其實進入勞保體系的門檻相對比較低，如果勞保沒有設定日數的話，因為進來比較容易，將來可能會衍生出有一些短暫加保甚至不加保……"],["鄭委員運鵬：這個我尊重，但是前面……"],["黃專門委員琴雀：那是來請領給付……"],["鄭委員運鵬：我看了一下五個社會保險跟職業保險，農保也沒有這個條件，國民年金也沒有，而今天應該會把公保的拿掉，那就剩勞保嘛！我的問題在這裡。"],["黃專門委員琴雀：對。"],["鄭委員運鵬：那你說勞保的申請的條件比較……相對來說……"],["黃專門委員琴雀：門檻比較低，嗯。"],["鄭委員運鵬：但是他如果不領勞保這一塊，他還是有國民年金可以領啊！"],["黃專門委員琴雀：對。"],["鄭委員運鵬：但是國民年金保險那邊就可以給付啊！"],["黃專門委員琴雀：對。"],["鄭委員運鵬：你也不過是把你勞保的對象推給國民年金，一樣的意思嘛！如果你這邊你把日數拿掉的話，他就在勞保這邊領會有什麼問題？"],["黃專門委員琴雀：跟委員報告，因為勞保現在有一個規定，保險本來是在保在職保險有效期間發生事故嘛！而現在勞保有另外一個規定，這是一個特例，就變成今天如果是在保險有效期間懷孕，即使你退保後一年內，我還可以讓你有，符合我們加保日數的話，你還是可以享有我勞保的給付。如果基本上你不是在我勞保這邊懷孕的話，你本來就是沒有工作的……"],["鄭委員運鵬：國家對國人，你不應該有職業別的差別嘛！因為軍公教是有資格，所以我認為本來那個時間點就有點問題。"],["黃專門委員琴雀：對。"],["鄭委員運鵬：我剛講的，如果不在勞保這邊領，他就在國民年金那邊領，對政府來說，他還是有得領嘛！他並不是沒得領。"],["黃專門委員琴雀：對。"],["鄭委員運鵬：所以只有你勞保這邊有防弊條款，假設啦！我先稱它為防弊條款，因為你剛剛講不在這個職業保險類別的身分裡面而懷孕了，我就不給付，所以你增加這個，其實當年為什麼這樣訂，應該是怕他來吃保費啦！"],["黃專門委員琴雀：對。"],["鄭委員運鵬：但是以現在慢慢都把這個時間點拿掉，幾乎是一致了，我聽起來的問題就剩下移工，那我們現在有規定移工在懷孕期間不能夠來臺灣工作嗎？你有這個規定嗎？"],["黃專門委員琴雀：根據我的瞭解，好像這個是……"],["鄭委員運鵬：是沒有歧視嘛！"],["黃專門委員琴雀：對。"],["鄭委員運鵬：你雇主可能會先去探一下……"],["黃專門委員琴雀：對，這個是就服法的規定。"],["鄭委員運鵬：但是對於有沒有懷孕，第一個，你也不一定知道。"],["黃專門委員琴雀：對。"],["鄭委員運鵬：第二個，你會歧視啊！你涉及歧視的可能性嘛！所以應該也不至於。"],["黃專門委員琴雀：對。"],["鄭委員運鵬：我的建議，我今天有附帶決議是要求行政院這邊，你們把勞保的部分也廢掉。但是如果你的勞保對象可能會有外國人，那個軍公教就沒有，有外國人你要另設我沒有意見；但是如果對本國人，我認為在國民年金就可以領了，勞保這邊你乾脆拿掉，就看他當下是什麼身分，他在哪邊可以領就讓他去領就好了，這是比較合理的。你們拿回去研究，好不好？"],["黃專門委員琴雀：好，跟委員補充報告，就是……"],["鄭委員運鵬：不然我們現在的勞保條件，理論上來說職業別不應該有差異啦！不應該有差異，當然其薪資結構什麼的都不一樣，但是你在保險的給付跟繳費的本質上面去做。"],["黃專門委員琴雀：對。"],["鄭委員運鵬：但是如果你就職業別不一樣，軍公教也拿掉了，他們就沒有防弊條款、沒有這個時間限制，勞保有，那你對勞工特別歧視，這個也不對啊！"],["黃專門委員琴雀：沒有，跟委員報告，這個其實剛剛我有報告過，參加公務人員保險的人基本上必須要經過國家考試，而勞保這邊，要進入勞保的門檻其實是相對低的。第二個，其實把這個日數拿掉……"],["鄭委員運鵬：相對低，所以你就認為他會來「偷吃步」……"],["黃專門委員琴雀：就變成是勞保這塊給付條件的一個放寬，以現在勞保的財務，可能委員也都蠻瞭解的……"],["鄭委員運鵬：我不認為財務應該要列入考量……"],["黃專門委員琴雀：當然還有就是所謂……"],["鄭委員運鵬：那是你後面再去處理的事情。"],["黃專門委員琴雀：您點到的這個移工問題……"],["鄭委員運鵬：因為財務考量，所以我對你的職業有歧視，這樣對嗎？這個政府講得出口嗎？那是兩回事。講真的願意生、有狀況，在保險裡面就應該去給付，不然就不要保。那如果他在國民年金可以領，在這邊有，我會認為應該領。你們往這個方向去研究，好不好？"],["黃專門委員琴雀：我們來研議一下這個可行性。"],["鄭委員運鵬：你把意見帶回去……"],["黃專門委員琴雀：好，瞭解。"],["鄭委員運鵬：帶回去跟他們講一下我們這個要求。"],["黃專門委員琴雀：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭運鵬委員。接下來我們請江永昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-36-24","speakers":["林思銘","曾銘宗","鄭運鵬","江永昌","湯蕙禎","游毓蘭","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","劉建國","賴香伶","李德維","林淑芬","邱臣遠","謝衣鳯","吳琪銘"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2023-12-07"],"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳超明等22人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查\n(一)委員黃世杰等16人、(二)委員游毓蘭等17人及(三)委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具「司法人員人\n事條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、併案審查(一)委員劉建國等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第十\n二條條文修正草案」、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團及(三)委員邱志偉等17人分別擬具「公教人員保險法\n第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129702_00002"}}},{"id":"148903","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Cl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止發言登記現在請登記第一位曾明忠總召發言"},{"start":1556.069,"end":1579.68,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝昭偉有關今天要審查的法案本席大方向都支持好 隨興請教循序部朱次長次長你好你對有關有關公務員員退休的年金的改革你業務應該很熟吧 對不對還好還好啊 這麼謙虛啊"},{"start":1581.73,"end":1595.567,"text":"太謙虛了這一次的上次的整個公教的退休年金的改革產生哪些效益也產生了哪些後遺症"},{"start":1597.466,"end":1599.047,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":1618.098,"end":1620.779,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":1647.253,"end":1670.939,"text":"基本上這個新的年輕制度讓這個財務可以永續經營對公務員以後擔任公務員會比較好那你說後遺症基本上就是有些人可能覺得他將來退休要到65歲才能退他可能覺得說那這樣子我可能待太久了他可能就有考慮"},{"start":1671.459,"end":1672.039,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案"},{"start":1691.187,"end":1718.262,"text":"不是後遺症,你這個還正面效益啊?是吧?現象!你輕忽這個現象我看過你的資歷,你還長期在教育部門你為國家人才引進,第一個,工人員老化第二個,很多人不願意參加政府的考試進到政府部門來這怎麼會只是個現象?"},{"start":1721.866,"end":1722.226,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":1741.894,"end":1742.854,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":1770.089,"end":1796.002,"text":"請教您在這一次的公務員員年金改革的過程當中有沒有哪一類人員是出賣沒有進行鄉外改革這一次年金改革影響最小應該是軍人吧不是我你都沒有針對我問題到是哪一些人沒有哪一類的人員沒有這一次沒有改革到"},{"start":1798.746,"end":1799.607,"text":"我問哪一類的人在改革的時候這一次除外?"},{"start":1820.174,"end":1821.035,"text":"這次法官有沒有改革到"},{"start":1839.205,"end":1865.718,"text":"報告委員法官有改革到啊因為法官的退休金齁就是跟一般公務員一樣的的這個是也就是跟跟著公務員退休之前撫恤法確定對啊好請教你先一個法官退休退休金多少呃退休金大概就是要看他的年資齁好跟他最後的13、14值等法官退休總數可以領到多少退休金"},{"start":1866.365,"end":1893.513,"text":"報告委員我們現在法官沒有值等我們現在是用縫級我們法官總共分24級然後最資深的法官是第一級沒關係我們比較一般公務員我們時間快到了大概是八萬多塊啦多少八萬多塊就是所得替代率也差不多就是剛才總數啦我是講總數你不要再講一部分對啊法官的退休金之外法官因為一直在法官法法官有一個退養金司法官有退養金那兩個加起來多少"},{"start":1894.413,"end":1919.105,"text":"如果是一級八百鳳點目前八百鳳點退休的大概是差不多十七八萬左右對十七八萬嘛對不對好那為什麼這一部分就沒改那為什麼一般一般的一般事務官做到十四指等現在大概六萬多市長這個公不公平"},{"start":1920.896,"end":1926.859,"text":"市長我覺得你這個政府官的稱職都不講真話都替執政黨在護航做得不錯你這個政府官標準的政府官不講真話的政府官我這樣的評論你贊不贊成我沒辦法贊成沒辦法贊成這是事實啊你不講真話"},{"start":1950.779,"end":1955.5,"text":"一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查"},{"start":1980.776,"end":1980.856,"text":"主席"},{"start":1998.098,"end":2012.713,"text":"法官依照憲法保障是終身職,司法官檢察官也一樣,其實沒有退休的概念,所以我們不向公務員借零退休,65歲就一定要退好,這個我贊成,但有必要是我們這個做得不錯的政府次長的三杯嘛,你知道合不合理?"},{"start":2022.478,"end":2023.259,"text":"市長你沒有講總數啊?那個是又退休分嗎?"},{"start":2049.037,"end":2076.768,"text":"對啊!他還是一推胸縫啊!他還講那個關寶元老幾父,那是一次提走的。那多少錢?那個應該兩、三百萬啊。對啊!兩、三百萬啊。我只是說,這個蔡政府做年金改革的時候啊,就把那個,這個把他不想改的切出去啊。市長,這樣合不合理?制度不一樣,對不對?"},{"start":2077.773,"end":2078.393,"text":"謝謝鄭明聰總導接下來請鄭苑朋委員發言"},{"start":2102.595,"end":2131.074,"text":"主席各位同仁各位同仁大家好那首先請教一下林智嘉秘書長這個我們組織法的修正那要把我們的公費助理的部分那把它明確讓他有文康補助費然後跟健檢的費用那這個是我們上一次在質詢的時候也有很多人委員問到嘛沒錯根據職業安全衛生法二十條的規定是不是本來我們就應該編列"},{"start":2134.475,"end":2141.649,"text":"本來沿著上我們上次因為在第八屆的時候"},{"start":2143.151,"end":2144.172,"text":"三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查"},{"start":2163.911,"end":2188.438,"text":"那我聽起來大概也沒有特別委員對這一筆文康費跟健檢的費用有特別的意見畢竟職業安全衛生法就有規定一般僱主也有編列是啦那現在我是建議說我提一個修正動議比較細緻化看我們立法院這邊覺得OK不OK因為你有編列就要有領嘛那立法院立委的助理我認為"},{"start":2190.475,"end":2190.575,"text":"二、併案審查"},{"start":2220.735,"end":2248.895,"text":"我們對於他們的助理怎麼領對於怎麼領你們有沒有想法一般公司可能就是從什麼輔委會所以他這裡其實他那個修法我們有提出一個修正意見也就是說我們這一些細節還是要我們來定定但是弄一個實施日期細節是你覺得是你們定我們的建議是既然有助理工會有工會定你覺得可不可以"},{"start":2249.369,"end":2273.612,"text":"助理工會訂我覺得還是比較不好有些公司他們是由輔委會或公會去訂然後去跟他申請他比較瞭解勞工的狀況如果是你們訂你們就要負這個權責我也不認為助理工會會上下其手或有什麼弊端你們想看看不是我覺得我們應該承擔這個責任所以由我們來訂"},{"start":2275.628,"end":2292.521,"text":"訂完之後,助理工會當然他有定期會改選,因為我們如果由立法院把它訂好的話,因為他是屬於比較穩定,就我們按照這個來進行,會比較那個,我覺得會對於"},{"start":2298.123,"end":2298.283,"text":" （三（併案"},{"start":2316.783,"end":2317.303,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":2337.625,"end":2362.091,"text":"那接下來要請勞動部的黃專門委員來跟你請教一下現在我們今天有委員提案那他要修正公教人員的保險法第36條的生育給付放寬的條件那他也是比照其他職業類別的條件因為像農保國民年金保險法都沒有那個時間別"},{"start":2363.643,"end":2364.283,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":2393.66,"end":2396.322,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":2411.938,"end":2437.2,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們國家的這個各社會保險是按照職域的不同有不同的一個相關的一個規定所以它的勤領條件、幾付標準這一些都是不一樣的那今天有關這個公保法要刪除這個日數這個規定因為這個是涉及公保的一個規定我們是尊重公保"},{"start":2438.542,"end":2461.684,"text":"主管機關全序部的一個意見那至於在勞保部分委員可能比較關切就是說是不是這邊刪掉那是不是我們勞保這邊還保留我們的這個給付的這個日數的話那會不會有一些問題那跟委員報告就是說其實公務人員跟我們勞保他的一個適用的對象是不一樣"},{"start":2462.705,"end":2463.525,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":2482.312,"end":2482.572,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案"},{"start":2498.064,"end":2498.685,"text":"三、併案審查三、併案審查"},{"start":2514.804,"end":2516.726,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":2530.705,"end":2558.801,"text":"跟委員報告因為勞保我現在有一個規定就是說保險本來是在保這個在職保險有效期間發生事故那我現在勞保有一個另外的一個規定這是一個特例就變成說我今天如果是在保險有效期間懷孕那即使你退保後一年內我還可以讓你有符合我們加保日數的話你還是可以享有我勞保的一個給付"},{"start":2560.162,"end":2561.384,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":2573.464,"end":2597.697,"text":"所以我認為本來那個時間點就有點問題啦齁那如果我剛講的如果你不在勞保這邊領他就在國民年金這邊領對政府來說他還是有的領嘛他並不是沒的領所以只有你勞保這邊有防弊條款假設啦齁我先稱呼他防弊條款因為你剛講說不在我的這個職業保險類別的身份裡面去懷孕了我就不給付所以你增加這個其實當年為什麼這樣訂應該是怕說他來吃保費啦"},{"start":2598.217,"end":2601.12,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":2614.301,"end":2636.923,"text":"根據我的瞭解好像這個是...是沒有歧視嗎?你雇主可能會先去探一下,但是對於說有沒有懷疑,第一個你也不一定知道啦。第二個你會歧視啊,你涉及歧視的可能性嘛,所以應該也不至於啦。所以如果我的建議啊,我今天有附帶決議是,要求行政院這邊你們把勞保的部分也廢掉。"},{"start":2637.824,"end":2639.205,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":2662.154,"end":2684.038,"text":"我們現在勞保條件,理論上來說職業別不應該有差異,當然他薪資結構什麼都有不一樣,那是你在保險的那個給付的,跟繳費的這個本質上面去做。但是如果你職業別不一樣,說軍公教也拿掉了,他們就沒有防避條款,沒有這個時間限制,勞保有,那你對勞工特別歧視,這個也不對。"},{"start":2685.658,"end":2685.978,"text":"二、併案審查"},{"start":2702.091,"end":2702.411,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案"},{"start":2723.37,"end":2723.65,"text":"江永昌委員"},{"start":2750.681,"end":2775.801,"text":"就交於移民署長請問一下立法委員可不可以有外國籍立法委員不可以有外國籍規定在哪裡他現在是國籍法第20條相關規定好那就很奇怪齁其實你要知道但為什麼這次總統副總統有沒有外國籍社會嘩然他最後有去查證你知道為什麼難道也是看國籍法嗎事實上他前面這裡有一個"},{"start":2777.605,"end":2801.572,"text":"總統副總統他的選拔法當中直接就在裡面寫不可以具有外國籍那麼在他們要登記的時候就直接授權主管機關或中選會相關機關可以去做查證也就是說他兩個加起來他當然有國籍法可是他前面一開始在總統副總統選拔法當中就告訴你明白告訴你不行那立法院是公職嗎"},{"start":2803.12,"end":2804.461,"text":"一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查"},{"start":2826.004,"end":2846.386,"text":"但是又沒有授權你啦沒有像總統副總統選罷法當中直接規定的所以就沒有授權你去查所以我們搞什麼你知道嗎我們搞竊結書啊這很不好就是說我不曉得就是說為什麼我們這麼長久以來其實以前也有立法委員發生過"},{"start":2847.936,"end":2869.756,"text":"結果我告訴你後來一追下去之後他所有的刑事判決違照文書不起訴我就不要講哪個立法委員前任立法委員利用職務榨取財務罪無罪然後行政上面請求返還他任內的薪資助理費補助費奉給給付等等法院都判不必返還"},{"start":2871.152,"end":2873.453,"text":"一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查"},{"start":2899.557,"end":2901.818,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":2917.722,"end":2919.103,"text":"一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、"},{"start":2944.733,"end":2969.146,"text":"我們有授權立法院查證的時候反而變成立法院來為立法委員是否具有外國籍來背書是怕這個嗎還是怕人力物力耗費頗大我們做不完嗎其實我剛剛講光是付出去的幾副沒有追回來那個錢就很多拿來辦這些行動用我說也許不要擴大到所有的民選公職國會這一層一定要把關注請回答我那個江委員原則上是這樣子對立法委員原則上他是應該"},{"start":2972.95,"end":2973.25,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":2996.308,"end":3024.055,"text":"幾屆立委時未取得國籍他如果是勾說是的我就是這樣子這是我的承諾我們你們給人家勾兩條一個是勾說你是不是有外國籍另外你們給人家勾的選項就是說如果你有的話請你去放棄然後你一年之內有沒有這也是依照法規規定的民主黨你聽我講權衡輕重你就會發現了當我們民選公子你說用信任"},{"start":3024.855,"end":3025.836,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查三、併案審查四、併案審查五、併案審查六、併案審查"},{"start":3041.835,"end":3065.353,"text":"那坦白講他們也不是授權查證欸,是靠拒絕書。所以我說連我們立委都靠竊竊,公務機關對公務員制裁就有外國籍,不得任用、撤銷任用。他也在那邊搞說要拒絕。那至少人家還要追還喔,萬一你被檢舉查出來會追還。我們也是追還喔,我們也是追喔。你用哪一條追還?我們也是向法律...沒有沒有沒有,我剛講某位前立委。我知道。"},{"start":3068.965,"end":3086.481,"text":"法院沒有判他還,但是我們有去追。這是兩回事。法律有站在你這一邊你才追得到,法律不站在你這一邊,我剛剛講了,他不管是偽造文書跟榨取財物都是無罪。因為他至少是欺騙我們嘛。他至少是欺騙我們啊。我認為立法委員來國會服公職。"},{"start":3094.232,"end":3117.558,"text":"不是靠立法院秘書長、立法院院長、副院長對立法委員的信任,不是不是,那是糟蹋國會尊嚴啦。我覺得其實應該大方授權,不要去擔心說你怕說到時候去外國政府不配合或什麼的,反而你授權我查證結果我查不出來,反而變成你的背書,我認為不要去擔心這個,該做的事情就要做。"},{"start":3118.117,"end":3131.99,"text":"不是,我想那個委員,我們也很想做,但是這個一定是有它的執行上的困難,因為如果我們變成一個查證機構的話,那我們要有很多權力。"},{"start":3133.257,"end":3133.957,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":3152.069,"end":3153.511,"text":"三、併案審查三、併案審查"},{"start":3168.49,"end":3171.273,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":3186.886,"end":3208.079,"text":"但坦白講回頭我當然考量到說每個公務人員都要去查查不完但是連立法委員就這麼樣113個席次我們立法院自己公然跟人家講我們做不到然後每次都是有問題的時候對不對大家來推諉我認為這樣不對我也沒有擴及到全部的民選公職啊"},{"start":3209.724,"end":3213.445,"text":"每一個立法委員身為中華民國立法委員對國家應有的責任對國家應有的義務對自己應該有的要求啊"},{"start":3231.491,"end":3259.904,"text":"對阿,所以他就是,他必須以照實以告阿他如果沒有他就要講沒有阿他如果欺騙他就是欺騙行為他要負責阿他負什麼責?他當然要負責阿,他就是欺騙行為我沒有去告他阿最後你免除他職務的時候他什麼罪都沒有阿怎麼會沒有罪?誤罪,你去看那個判決,判決的誤罪那個是,那個當然他的判決是那樣子當然我們是不是對他的判決就是"},{"start":3261.505,"end":3261.945,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":3278.03,"end":3298.431,"text":"國家安全國家責任立法委員義務還是你是站在人力物力不足無從查證還是你擔心說我查了如果沒查好反而會是幫他們背書但是你不能全部丟給就是說你們對我信任啊不能這樣子啦我是覺得這個這個"},{"start":3300.797,"end":3304.44,"text":"是像我們這樣的處理我是覺得可能在整個規劃裡面會變成一個"},{"start":3308.649,"end":3331.081,"text":"可以說是可以執行而且也是可以相當適合的一個方式那我問你每次你們每次但是總是發生事情的時候你們就會新聞相關單位去查了新聞外交部外管從這個當然有人質疑的時候我們都會去查那我現在就告訴你我現在就要請教您"},{"start":3332.674,"end":3357.704,"text":"以後是怎麼樣?好不要說今天湯惠正、林思敏、江永昌今天問一問新聞寫出來了我說你們以後啟動對我們的信任調查是靠什麼要件?你總要有一個機制吧你也不是說今天院長、副院長、秘書長高興了這個人新聞很大查一下或者這個人新聞很大沒關係這只是道聽途說那個人其實我們有所懷疑"},{"start":3358.484,"end":3383.119,"text":"不會吧?你不會是靠這個吧?那你至少告訴我,如果你都只靠信任,只靠竊竊,我沒有擴及到全部的公務員,我沒有擴及到全部的民選公職,我現在就講113席的立法委員,包括政府院長,你總要有一個你的SOP是什麼吧?就是說當什麼事情到什麼時候,我們那張竊竊書形同廢紙,那我們又沒有授權給你們的時候,你們是依照什麼東西去查我們?"},{"start":3384.139,"end":3412.603,"text":"還是說不是靠你們查是靠內政部依照國籍法當中我們不可以認公職內政部啟動調查我不曉得因為在立法院根據公職人員選報法當中沒有立法院的規則沒有回頭來看就是一個國籍法連公務人員認用法28條第一項第二款也都與我們是有距離的那你沒辦法你沒標準"},{"start":3413.547,"end":3422.204,"text":"你沒有作業規範那我都不知道啦我今天就在這邊我說我懷疑湯惠珍跟林思敏啊我今天就在這裡講啊好了講完了咧"},{"start":3425.696,"end":3451.213,"text":"這要對全體國人來負責每一次我知道那如果說你要立法院去查查證不是不是至少也要有一個法令依據讓我們有最簡單我們不是寫切結書給你們我們寫授權書給你們就好像總統副總統他們寫的就是授權書那你知道我們公務人員體系公務人員任用法第28條"},{"start":3452.745,"end":3472.642,"text":"如果碰到第一項第二款的時候有沒有不得外國籍的他們是寫拒絕書我知道那個範圍都比較大因為非常多人不可能逐一去查但是起碼國會自律以後立委關於外國國籍不是寫切結書給你們那個信任是假的嗎因為就是有人犯錯犯過"},{"start":3474.366,"end":3476.008,"text":"委員黃世杰等16人等17人分別擬具"},{"start":3490.819,"end":3515.056,"text":"我覺得我們對立法委員的信任這個信任我覺得還是非常重要因為你當一個立委你被人民所附託你當然要誠實以告連你這個誠實都沒有我覺得當然你就變成欺騙我們是你欺騙我們所以我是覺得如果用這個竊決書的方式我是覺得事實上"},{"start":3515.816,"end":3540.714,"text":"對於立法委員的尊重還有對於整個執行上面我覺得目前來講應該還是一個最好的方式。參議員長我的重點是這個單一立法委員不值得信任那不值得信任是立法委員的問題啊我把這句話講完但整體的過會值得人民信賴所以不要發生事情的時候立法院來發一個新聞稿說那個立法委員他竊竊寫假的謝謝大家"},{"start":3543.144,"end":3567.246,"text":"不是把我們信賴的是國會阿我跟你講立法委員各區域包含部分區百工百業行行色色各樣的民眾大家不同的角度選擇出來的民意代表對不對我講我們現在是排黑排得很嚴重但是過去也有跟深人當選立法委員嘛有的東西不是靠信任阿"},{"start":3568.167,"end":3583.238,"text":"我們要信任的是國會啊我們要信賴國會啊不是說靠你們對靠立法院秘書長對立法委員的切結書你不是信任我啊國會所以你要維持國會所以您是不是應該要維持我們的國會被民眾信任當然是嘛我是基於這一點啊是啊那我們現在目前所做的方式就是這樣子啊"},{"start":3596.468,"end":3598.549,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":3617.859,"end":3619.04,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":3639.418,"end":3640.839,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":3656.684,"end":3657.564,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":3683.953,"end":3685.674,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":3703.63,"end":3721.077,"text":"國安的層次甚至是這個國家的義務跟責任以及國會的信賴國會的信任這不該只是靠那一張切結那再研究看看再想想看那個委員原則上我也感謝你的發言事實上你所提的任何的一些"},{"start":3721.757,"end":3746.345,"text":"議件包括立法院的一些條例那個我其實我都長久以來我都非常佩服因為我覺得你常常都看到一些我們沒有看到但是針對這一個部分你所提的那個意見原則上我還是會把它接納而且我們也會回去好好再想除了切結之外是不是還有更好的方式來做這樣子的問題"},{"start":3747.005,"end":3747.485,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":3769.773,"end":3798.699,"text":"發現了原來他任用時一具外國籍這種東西他被這個什麼他被那個撤銷任用的時候他是要追還幾戶喔這個在我們立法院立法委員就算被發現說結果原來你就職了你也沒什麼一年內放棄什麼的這個你去查一下因為我最後看到的是我們雖然要追但是與法無拒是沒什麼可以追所以這一點也很重要謝謝謝謝委員你提出這一點那這樣子的話"},{"start":3799.477,"end":3825.164,"text":"事實上您講的這一些事情的話我們會好好的研究一下也許你這樣的意見還有將來我們如果說他真的是等於是欺瞞我們造成這個他本身就是說本來就有外國籍那這樣子的話我們將來要追討他的一些心之奉祥等等也有一個依據"},{"start":3826.184,"end":3854.24,"text":"所以這個我覺得這個一併我們來把它考量因為這次的事件傷害很深啊人家說你有沒有外國籍他說原來已經在立法院做部分具還讓子彈飛了兩個禮拜在那邊講來講去這沒有道理這對國會的形象有沒有這個其實是傷害很大事實上好啦我覺得我們還是接納那個委員的意見我們來好好考慮一下我想很多我們的國民說原來是切結喔"},{"start":3855.71,"end":3861.753,"text":"我非常感謝委員您所提出的這個善意的一個建議而且你這個建議的確也值得我們深思來考慮那好我們會把它納入來考慮也許如果"},{"start":3882.563,"end":3907.222,"text":"找到一個更好的方法,我們會來做處理。謝謝委員。好,謝謝江永超委員。那下一位請我們的抓委,我們顏世明委員發言。好,謝謝主席。我還是先救蕭秘書長。是。署長,我想就今天的立法院組織法三十二條的修正,那秘書長也支持啦。我支持,我支持。非常感謝。我感謝,感謝那個抓委你排這個議程。"},{"start":3908.743,"end":3929.253,"text":"那我想這個但是現在就是說就是它的實施的日期啊那民主黨有提出修正動議嗎?到底我們現在是要從明年還是後年開始?我們是因為今年是來不及嘛然後最快就是從那個我們這裡的修正動議有提出是在"},{"start":3931.141,"end":3932.402,"text":"一、審查一、審查一、審查一、審查一、審查一、"},{"start":3947.498,"end":3954.3,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":3971.044,"end":3979.087,"text":"職業災害保險及保護法也已經於去年的5月1日開始施行,擴大勞工的職業災害保險對象,為持續降低我國的職場危害風險。請問勞動部職安署對三安有提出什麼樣的政策推動?"},{"start":3995.811,"end":3996.572,"text":"三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查"},{"start":4017.659,"end":4028.327,"text":"華澳主席,主席針對我們那個勞動部針對降災的一些策略的部分目前我們治安署針對所有適用治安法的一些勞工針對減災的部分我們針對2024年到2030年"},{"start":4034.651,"end":4037.332,"text":"三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案"},{"start":4064.184,"end":4064.364,"text":"議員是專委嗎?"},{"start":4084.555,"end":4110.943,"text":"我是副組長副組長喔對你在這個職安署是不是在去年有推動111年職場安全衛生減災重點策略去年有實施那我們針對於明年的一些規劃的部分也有一定的相關的一些策略所以每一年都訂定相關的減災策略嗎是我想請問你那你去年實際執行的成效如何去年有沒有統計"},{"start":4112.742,"end":4114.363,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":4124.479,"end":4148.649,"text":"這部分抱歉,因為我可能要找一些相關的資料,因為這部分不是我這邊管的。是320人,比前一年多了很多,就創6年來的新高,比2021年增加42人。所以我想問的是說,你這個雖然有這個減災的策略,但是看起來完全沒有成效。"},{"start":4150.728,"end":4173.675,"text":"你這個策略沒有達到它應有的成效。既然你要去部長講出三安的一個政策,但是看起來你推動的策略並沒有達到它一個成效。你知道我們在111年12月29日訂定的職場安全健康提升策略,那個策略的內容你知道嗎?"},{"start":4174.877,"end":4194.138,"text":"這部分大概是針對一些高風險行業的部分我們有一些專案的一些監督檢查的一些計畫那健康的部分我們也大概針對於譬如說針對化學品的一些高風險的一些事業單位的部分我們有針對這一部分去做一個專案的檢查"},{"start":4195.84,"end":4196.081,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":4214.204,"end":4214.564,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查三、併案審查"},{"start":4234.713,"end":4260.626,"text":"主長我想這個就是說你們是很注重一個加強安全衛生的監督檢查效能但是今年的我們發生了民洋大火那我們就看出說整個對於職災的預防我們的檢查還有監督的效能並沒有達到它一定的成效其實我想告訴我們勞動部的是說這個勞動工作者因為工作犧牲不是簡單一個統計數字這麼簡單"},{"start":4263.527,"end":4268.468,"text":"一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案"},{"start":4289.634,"end":4290.035,"text":"二、併案審查"},{"start":4298.15,"end":4326.24,"text":"根據媒體報導司法官學院接獲五位女同學的指控一位男學員經常會在雙方互動時藉機肢體接觸最誇張的是有一次學員之間外出用餐這位男學員A原本坐在女同學的右手邊卻不斷站起來假意要和另一邊的男同學搭肩導致女學員被迫靠在A的懷裡除此之外A在講話時還緊靠女生的臉"},{"start":4327.6,"end":4356.209,"text":"那麼據悉被害人原本認為大家將來都要在司法界並肩作戰並沒有太大的反應但是這一盤學員看不下去以手機錄影存證並持檔案和司法事務界討論有司法官看過之後直言實在很噁心還有法界人士評價該男學員很可能就是刻意為之來騷擾女同學所以我想請問對於這個事件司法官學員"},{"start":4357.449,"end":4379.213,"text":"有關這個性平教育的課程安排的如何?上課的方式為何?報告那個委員就是委員所提的這個事件司法官學院這邊已經進行內部的調查已經在調查的程序當中那性平的部分因為是一個很重要的這個議題所以在那個司法官學院的整個培訓的過程當中我們有納入相關的這個課程那發生這個事情確實我們也覺得很遺憾那相關的這個部分學院這邊會持續的調查"},{"start":4388.316,"end":4410.834,"text":"市長,這些都是准司法官,未來都是要去對相關的,不管是性騷擾案件,他都要有一個很正確的態度。還未擔任之前,就對這個性騷擾的觀念就已經有不正確。我們很擔心他未來擔任司法官,會做出偏頗的一個認定。"},{"start":4412.175,"end":4439.153,"text":"報告委員,我們都用最高的道德的標準在要求我們的這個司法的人員。我想信憑這部分希望在我們的整個未來的司法官學院的他的一個教育方面可能多加一點這種課程告訴我們這些準司法官信憑教育的重要性。是,謝謝委員。是,所以我們希望說司法單位都要更注重其內部的性別平等價值觀並加強相關的教育宣導。"},{"start":4440.194,"end":4441.055,"text":"湯惠貞昭委員"},{"start":4470.39,"end":4498.385,"text":"那先請教我們秘書長對,早上我們修的法那個我們是因為長期我們的這個國會助理的問題到這一次我們正式的想要把這個定一個法律的規範那因為這些國會助理我們是這四年來跟國會助理這個"},{"start":4499.69,"end":4500.991,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":4517.401,"end":4522.022,"text":"一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、"},{"start":4546.989,"end":4549.77,"text":"一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案"},{"start":4576.599,"end":4581.904,"text":"一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、"},{"start":4601.101,"end":4604.662,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":4621.049,"end":4623.111,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":4644.488,"end":4650.631,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":4675.389,"end":4701.346,"text":"國會助理在履行職責的時候是不是受到適當的這樣的健康保障我想這一次大概會把它定下來是的會那個跟委員報告這個原則上我很認同委員所說的因為事實上我們國會助理這個這些助理們事實上對委員幫助很大而且他們也真的是我們國會裡面很重要的"},{"start":4703.267,"end":4727.577,"text":"．一．一,因為沒有他們事實上委員的問政還有各方面都會受到蠻多的一個限制所以我們怎麼樣子想辦法讓所有的這些國會助理他們能夠有更好的一個待遇或福利等等事實上我們真的也很希望來做"},{"start":4728.357,"end":4746.393,"text":"那麼只是因為現在國會助理他因為沒有具有公務人員身份所以在很多上面我們在處理上面事實上有他的困難所以這一次這個陳超明委員這個提案針對國會助理的這個"},{"start":4748.575,"end":4750.257,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查三、併案審查四、併案審查"},{"start":4767.369,"end":4790.445,"text":"我們現在想要把它回復一般來講如果我們沒有一個依據的話那事實上是跟以前是有干擱所以我們就想說利用這個法令來做處理那剛好我們上次在答詢的時候幾乎委員大概都有共識那我們就想說那我們趕快弄個"},{"start":4791.746,"end":4812.515,"text":"修正案然後讓他這個法制化然後就可以按照這個法制化就可以來編制預算然後合法的來處理所以我想今天大概就主要這個意思所以我想這個非常謝謝兩位召集委員這麼快的把他提出來那剛好那個有一個"},{"start":4813.716,"end":4839.276,"text":"陳超明委員有類似的提案那我們就用這個提案來為主體然後我們提修正案讓他來通過我們也希望這個今天大家能夠有共識然後這個透過大家共識然後看能不能不須協商不須黨團協商因為這個很單純啦那大家如果有共識就不須黨團協商那我們可以在這一任"},{"start":4840.137,"end":4849.355,"text":"也許下個禮拜我們就讓他三讀通過讓他把它完成那對這個工會助理也有一個交代我是這樣子來懇求大家"},{"start":4850.093,"end":4850.394,"text":"國會助理的任務"},{"start":4875.077,"end":4876.098,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":4898.349,"end":4900.03,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查三、併案審查四、併案審查"},{"start":4920.962,"end":4921.302,"text":"二、併案審查"},{"start":4936.099,"end":4936.3,"text":"主席"},{"start":4954.318,"end":4956.94,"text":"公務人員保障及培訓委員會保障處處長公務人員的保障"},{"start":4981.053,"end":4981.394,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":4989.181,"end":4993.522,"text":"一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、"},{"start":5019.178,"end":5043.784,"text":"每一個年度是不是給他們自己﹐內部自己去做加強訓練﹐對於自己本科﹐本科的﹐或者本處的﹐自己的目標、願景﹐每一年都給自己一次的這樣的一個教育訓練。我是覺得需要。常常看到某些單位﹐"},{"start":5045.185,"end":5047.267,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":5065.674,"end":5080.385,"text":"報告委員我們的訓練進修法我們現在有分工保訓會的部分是負責公務人任用資格的取得的訓練包括初任考試入局人員訓練跟升官等的訓練"},{"start":5081.966,"end":5082.186,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案"},{"start":5102.065,"end":5104.627,"text":"我們都有,每年都有。我再請教司法院人事處長。"},{"start":5126.628,"end":5151.559,"text":"因為我們看到前幾天剛好好像是我們的法官訓練這個在受訓期間就挑戰我們的性貧性騷那個防治的問題這個退訓了嗎那幾個報告委員這個是法務部司法官學院是隸屬於法務部是是是那我們就請教法務部的檢察官"},{"start":5153.748,"end":5173.426,"text":"報告委員,針對委員所提的這個事件,司法官學院現在依照程序在進行調查中。那我們對於這個司法人員的道德標準,我們會用最高的道德標準來要求。那部長也在強調是我們對於這個絕對是我們希望是存優太烈,不允許這不適格的人員擔任這個司法職務。"},{"start":5174.927,"end":5176.448,"text":"司法院司法院"},{"start":5205.161,"end":5205.182,"text":"是處長嗎?"},{"start":5208.769,"end":5235.721,"text":"現在是法務部對不對?還是人事處我想請教人事處長應該是司法院的人事處長吧好我請教你因為現在我們有一個案子已經起訴三年了而且各交保兩百萬這個案子是大家都眼睛都注意到這個大案子但是一直都沒有進入審判"},{"start":5236.357,"end":5236.817,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":5262.941,"end":5265.842,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":5279.258,"end":5283.02,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":5310.463,"end":5328.451,"text":"司法司務司長報告委員 虛擬貨幣不是法務部主管的不是我現在講一件事是要檢察官去做裁定現在這個案子是因為有一個凍結這個被騙資金的案例這個案子他因為個人被騙了以後這個積極的去"},{"start":5329.411,"end":5330.592,"text":"三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查"},{"start":5350.575,"end":5351.256,"text":"三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查"},{"start":5366.969,"end":5369.67,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查三、併案審查四、併案審查五、併案審查六、併案審查"},{"start":5385.555,"end":5389.96,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":5408.539,"end":5413.826,"text":"報告委員因為委員您所提的可能是一個個案那部裡面我們對於那個具體的個案我們向來是不介入不干預不指導"},{"start":5424.702,"end":5430.706,"text":"那委員所講的這個案的情形因為我們不太瞭解說他是不是在偵查程序當中有做所謂的搜索或者是扣押那如果是做了扣押的話還要區分說這個扣押是針對得為證據之物或者是得沒收之物來做的這個扣押的程序那相關的這個如果是他是得沒收之物或者是所謂的這個將來得為證據之物的話他會不同程序的處理那虛擬貨幣假設是我們這邊做扣押的話那目前我們在這個12月底的時候我們有相關的一個平台"},{"start":5454.443,"end":5483.385,"text":"我們可以就是有關於這個入境跟出境我們都有相關的規範是可以管理但是因為對委員這個案的具體情況我們這邊比較不了解所以這個部分我們是不是會後可以再向委員這邊了解其實防護部你們部長都很清楚部長已經也我們經過這樣的一個機會也講了半天那等於說你再去問一下好不好問問我們那個科長他已經被我煩死了"},{"start":5484.684,"end":5499.411,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":5500.441,"end":5500.621,"text":"併案審查"},{"start":5518.114,"end":5518.314,"text":" （二、併案審查"},{"start":5541.258,"end":5541.778,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案"},{"start":5566.104,"end":5567.244,"text":"三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查"},{"start":5591.954,"end":5593.975,"text":"議員黃世杰等16人、（三）委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具"},{"start":5617.662,"end":5617.702,"text":"檢察官"},{"start":5633.677,"end":5638.043,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查三、併案審查四、併案審查五、併案審查六、併案審查"},{"start":5649.019,"end":5650.5,"text":"．一、併案審查．一、併案審查．一、併案審查"},{"start":5671.769,"end":5689.491,"text":"不管是檢察官還是院長、法官還有懲戒法院的院長都可以做出這樣的事情可是上刑一定會下效我們昨天本席也出席了本黨的一個記者會就是因為衛福部秘書處的處長"},{"start":5691.906,"end":5695.89,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":5715.409,"end":5727.298,"text":"第六條裏面已經沒有過去有的交質貪惰奢侈放蕩所以司令會我們不管是真的不管嗎?次長請講"},{"start":5732.568,"end":5736.072,"text":"公允服務法第五條公允服務法第五條"},{"start":5751.249,"end":5751.889,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":5774.579,"end":5795.032,"text":"這個東西基本上就是說他的行為有沒有違反到公務我們主要是在乎就是說他的行為有沒有影響到公務您看有沒有影響到公務這位外遇對象根據這個處長的說法這個經常到他的辦公室來來蹭他是說是蹭網路個案狀況但這個個案這個狀況個案的狀況我們並不清楚"},{"start":5802.297,"end":5808.633,"text":"並不清楚,但是如果是報導屬實的話,你覺得我們公務員服務法有沒有規範到?"},{"start":5809.981,"end":5834.829,"text":"如果沒有規範到的話,我們要這個全序部設公務員服務法幹什麼啊?沒有用了嘛!還講了一大堆還不如以後就來一個攔路請願、下跪請願場所,就這樣子啊。這應該要有規範的,不是嗎?就是說他的行為影響到機關的聲譽,或者說影響到業務的推動,這部分當然有公務員服務法的規範。"},{"start":5835.595,"end":5851.249,"text":"你覺得這樣有沒有影響到機關的生育?這個社會來評價吧。社會評價,所以包括這個王必勝政務次長他在外,外遇生子,然後在外面還在遛小孩的這個事情,你也覺得沒有影響嗎?"},{"start":5852.37,"end":5856.433,"text":"我們現在就是有很多該作為或不作為,難道我們的首長、部會首長都不用去管嗎?我們秘書長,剛剛我一問他這個問題,他立刻就會告訴我,我們事後,發生了之後,我們發現這個問題之後,我們事後積極的處理,開了幾次會,找了哪些人來。"},{"start":5871.883,"end":5872.724,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":5887.367,"end":5910.537,"text":"公務員服務法我們尊重這個是個案我覺得你們要給一個態度否則真的我們有多少文官計10萬的文官都在看所有的法原來通通都是在治我們這些沒有辦法的人都是在渡這些高階的有辦法的人這是很不好的我最後其實"},{"start":5912.398,"end":5912.698,"text":"三、併案審查"},{"start":5929.395,"end":5938.038,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查三、併案審查四、併案審查五、併案審查六、併案審查七、併案審查八、併案審查十、併案審查九、併案審查十、併案審查十、併案審查十、併案審查十、併案審查十、併案審查十、併案審查十、併案審查十、併案審查十、併案審查十、併案審查十、併案審查十、併案審查十、併案審查十、併案審查十、併案審查十、併案審查十、併案審查十、併案審查"},{"start":5953.903,"end":5981.369,"text":"但是內政部他們在這個時候在今年他們其實警政署規劃了有40個人要調升為警監職務就刑事、航空、國道、公路等相關主管有40個人但是你們只合了兩個就是刑事局的科技犯罪防治中心主任跟刑事鑑識中心主任要40個給兩個會不會太苛刻了"},{"start":5985.145,"end":6004.036,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":6004.196,"end":6031.715,"text":"市長因為現在我們在地方上面包括我們有叫做小聯盟的分局長或是縣市的交通警察大隊長或是刑事警察大隊長他們現在都是直接都非常的低都只有兩縣市你現在交通跟犯罪打詐什麼這些這麼重要的工作其實他們都應該要配合調整但是"},{"start":6032.515,"end":6054.233,"text":"每次內政部說一定是人事總署先擋但人事總署擋過一關之後再說這是全序部,都是全序部在擋我還是很希望全序部不要再背這個鍋了因為現在組織多元發展那業務已經如此的繁複之後該支持他們還是要支持他們好不好謝謝,謝謝次長好,謝謝游毓蘭委員"},{"start":6059.864,"end":6087.754,"text":"接下來請謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員不在接下來請王洪威委員發言好 謝謝主席那我延續一下剛才游毓蘭委員她的話題就是最近事實上很多公務人員都在熱烈討論的就是衛福部的這個高級的長官秘書處處長他的這個婚外情"},{"start":6088.254,"end":6091.735,"text":"公務人員服務法在過去第五條有規定公務員應該誠實清廉謹慎勤勉不得有"},{"start":6105.379,"end":6122.479,"text":"交字貪惰、奢侈放蕩以及也由賭博、吸食煙毒等足以損失名譽之行為但是後來也是在我們院內同仁在提案修法之後把這些全部都拿掉了"},{"start":6123.34,"end":6150.298,"text":"所以很多人就說過去不得奢侈放蕩所以現在公務人員可以奢侈放蕩了嗎所以我想請問一下我們全序部的次長現在以衛福部這位處長他的行為有沒有違反我們相關的法令公務人員服務法有沒有違反"},{"start":6153.696,"end":6174.068,"text":"公務員服務法現在第6條講是公務員應該公正無私陳姓青年勤勉謹慎勤勉不得有損公務員名譽及政府信譽之行為所以這個部分他有沒有違反這第5條第6條你剛才現在把它改成第6條那你有沒有違反這個條文我覺得這個社會會評價"},{"start":6182.415,"end":6182.655,"text":"公務員服務法委員長"},{"start":6207.442,"end":6232.535,"text":"這個就看那個衛福部怎麼去做什麼就要看衛福部,若衛福部不懲戒因為衛福部的自己的長官就這樣子若衛福部不懲戒所以我們的公務員服務法是擺好看的嗎?不是你是主管機關嗎?按照這樣的行為按照我們公務員服務法是不是應該依法啟動懲戒的相關的辦法?"},{"start":6232.944,"end":6238.891,"text":"所以如果衛福部不了了之寬大為懷因為他祈求大家原諒他所以就原諒他也就不了了之也就沒事了"},{"start":6255.469,"end":6255.709,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":6280.454,"end":6281.315,"text":"另外請教一下我們立法院秘書長"},{"start":6306.512,"end":6332.555,"text":"昨天有一個讓我們一看到其實非常非常震驚的一個訊息就是在網路上大家有看到就是有很多所謂被擒制單位在監聽的對象那麼你知道有很多我們立法院的委員嗎?你知道嗎?"},{"start":6334.471,"end":6336.331,"text":"三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查"},{"start":6361.209,"end":6362.55,"text":"蔡奇昌副院長邱太元委員"},{"start":6376.846,"end":6391.138,"text":"有黃國書委員而且黃國書委員他還是兩個機關兩個申請單位那這裡面當然還有好多立委的助理裡面還有很多是立委的助理因為我覺得"},{"start":6392.479,"end":6414.13,"text":"這個事情當然調查局昨天立刻出面否認這件事情但是因為事實上這邊所看到的資料裡面他們申請單位非常多有一些我老講我自己也覺得非常奇怪因為有很多是陳明通、邱國正、國防部長還有國安局但是也有很多是我們的檢調單位在監聽的"},{"start":6421.093,"end":6421.754,"text":"三、併案審查三、併案審查"},{"start":6437.045,"end":6440.207,"text":"現在我們並沒有接到任何這樣子的相關信息我們沒有被知會過"},{"start":6466.175,"end":6494.737,"text":"沒有被知會過我剛才念的這幾位立法委員在上面有的是前立委那我就我就如果如果有知會我們原則上我們都會拒絕我們認為他不應該監聽我們好您說就是說也不可以監聽我們如果有知會就會拒絕那如果是助理呢這裡面好多位助理我必須講跨政黨的立法委員助理都有如果是助理呢所以"},{"start":6496.154,"end":6506.258,"text":"這個到底是什麼狀況其實委員對不起我現在還不是很明白我看起來您一頭霧水還有我們立法院秘書處還有秘書處好多所以顯然你全部都在狀況外我要講的是雖然調查局在第一時間否認了這件事情"},{"start":6516.522,"end":6541.567,"text":"可是我所收到的情資我認為這裡面有一些我自己覺得怪怪的我直接講因為有些他有監體制我覺得很奇怪我自己覺得很奇怪有一些比如說他有邱國正去監聽是核發人是邱國正我們國防部長去監聽我們駐外單位的就是駐中華民國的"},{"start":6543.067,"end":6546.63,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":6569.348,"end":6584.713,"text":"確實有被監察有的都還已經案子都辦出來了有些被監察就是因為有他的單位太多了嘛我剛剛講的只是一些國安單位啊什麼國防部啊陳明通什麼這些但是有很多的檢調的單位我所了解部分確實是被監察的"},{"start":6591.788,"end":6617.397,"text":"謝謝委員所以我要講的是我沒有全盤否定這些名單這些有的名單我自己也覺得很有疑問因為我認為並不如調查局所說的完全都是假的但是因為我覺得這裡面涉及我們立法院包含上次副院長、立法委員、立法院助理、立法院秘書處所以可不可以請秘書長瞭解一下"},{"start":6619.558,"end":6640.034,"text":"謝謝委員因為這個說實在我也是現在才知道啦那你剛剛也有說調查局第一時間也有否認說這個不是事實那沒關係既然委員有提出來那跟我們立法院有關的所以我們有必要去了解他到底是怎麼回事對"},{"start":6641.435,"end":6669.355,"text":"對,因為還是要跟這些相關﹖因為他們要具體﹖不是跳下去一個新聞稿好像就會弄過去好不好謝謝委員提供這些信息不管這個信息到底是怎麼樣因為我們現在也還沒有清楚說到底是什麼樣的事情那但是我們總是也是要瞭解看看因為我認為這是非同小可的問題有必要瞭解不管它是真假我們也必須要瞭解對,但有些它如果是真﹖我要講的是"},{"start":6669.955,"end":6670.656,"text":"三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查"},{"start":6679.949,"end":6682.35,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查三、併案審查四、併案審查五、併案審查六、併案審查"},{"start":6701.582,"end":6729.478,"text":"對不對假的真的我覺得都都是很大條的事情所以請秘書長至少我剛講到我想可能其他人你可能也管不到嘛因為他這裡面還有一些甚至是軍方的啊或者是地方的民意代表很多啦非常非常多自己情治單位也有很多人被監聽好所以那麼秘書長你什麼時候可以給我們那個委員會一個答覆"},{"start":6731.138,"end":6731.218,"text":"陳譽貞委員發言"},{"start":6760.682,"end":6785.475,"text":"謝謝主席我剛再補充一下因為這個真的是民主法制社會如果說沒有合法監聽是完全侵犯人民權利沒錯第二個如果是有合法監聽然後這種資料外洩外流那也是相當嚴重的問題對然後尤其裡面有那麼多的所以我們必須要去了解一下這個議題很重大好謝謝來你要請教這個權序部權序部"},{"start":6792.204,"end":6796.269,"text":"請問這個我們今天修這個公教人員保險法這個第36條這個訂定第36條給付生意給付的請領請問立法目的為何?"},{"start":6802.748,"end":6823.076,"text":"主要就是36條規範是要有一定的日數才能夠勤領的,那這個部分對於有些……對,就是像以現在的法規來講,如果有公教人員有投公保,不管是分明或是早產,現在是不是一定領得到生意給付?"},{"start":6824.651,"end":6825.512,"text":"國民年金法第32條"},{"start":6841.068,"end":6842.189,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查三、併案審查四、併案審查五、併案審查"},{"start":6856.181,"end":6880.222,"text":"人民健康保險條例第24條第一項也有規定對保險人或其配偶合於下列情形之餘得勤領生意給付、參加保險後分免、參加保險後早產所以我說請這個權需部比照這個國民年金法及人民健康保險條例的法條一直就要把這個36條這個日數限制要放寬因為本期也接到很多陳情案就是說在這個這個保險期間有效"},{"start":6884.085,"end":6884.665,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":6905.394,"end":6916.943,"text":"參照這個我們邱委員沒了,邱志偉委員的這個有關36條的提案,我想跟我們布里頭的這個方向也是一致的嗎?本席在這裡是表示支持的。好,謝謝布。好,謝謝陳一貞委員。接下來請劉建國委員發言。好,謝謝主席。理事長,請教一下,針對上個月的霸凌案目前的進度怎樣?"},{"start":6930.958,"end":6951.874,"text":"我們已經立刻就組織一個委員會然後開會那委員會有主管有非主管有專家寫者然後我們開了應該有兩次會到三次會結果我們就有結論結論之後我們就有通知當事人然後都有處理了"},{"start":6953.499,"end":6953.519,"text":"因為"},{"start":6967.116,"end":6986.109,"text":"那我是不是請我們副秘書長補充一下因為他是整個這個會的召集人他大概細節他可以比較清楚的告訴委員跟委員報告就是他是11月2號所以11月3號我們就開始進行第一次調查"},{"start":6986.829,"end":6990.953,"text":"一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查"},{"start":7003.285,"end":7003.625,"text":" （二、併案審查"},{"start":7022.295,"end":7024.316,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":7051.305,"end":7051.806,"text":"我沒有問到這麼細啦,說結果"},{"start":7070.95,"end":7085.418,"text":"結果是大家一致認為是不成立不成立是所以有成立現在有成立這個單一窗口可以接受我們立院同仁遇到這個事情可以來到這個單一去申訴嗎沒錯沒錯沒錯有好那至於這個細節我們再找時間再來討論因為到底為什麼會不成立在這邊也沒辦法討論到一個很周詳不過"},{"start":7094.443,"end":7119.743,"text":"不過最起碼有成立這個單一窗口那就不需要讓立院的同仁又跑到這邊來做那次的動作所以這邊要肯定秘書長跟副秘書長但是我現在回歸到頭來來討論到立院的助理國會的聯絡人來來往往如果他們受到職場上的霸凌性騷在不在這個立院單一專案小組或單一窗口可以來受理的範圍內"},{"start":7122.341,"end":7145.719,"text":"如果是國會聯絡人國會聯絡人、立法院的助理立法院的助理立法院的助理是可以我們這邊可以來受理他們但是如果國會聯絡人的話委員你在講立法院的助理你這邊可以受理後面三、四個人頭一直搖一直搖一直搖搖得非常嚴重非常的劇烈"},{"start":7147.831,"end":7173.349,"text":"跟委員報告原則上我們是立法院的員工那因為助理對助理的因為僱主是委員所以我們不必對嘛助理是利用的助理的僱主是立委嘛對不對那如果A辦公室的助理受到霸淫找A辦公室的立委嘛B辦公室的助理受到霸淫找這個B辦公室的委員嘛應該是這麼說嘛"},{"start":7175.243,"end":7189.766,"text":"這樣不是也很奇怪?我們今天當委員提出來就是要編列這個公會助理的健康檢查的相關經費嘛對不對?我們助理的費用就立院編給他了那立院的助理遇到霸凌我們沒有一個單一窗口然後找個別的僱主"},{"start":7190.447,"end":7207.125,"text":"然後如果是同黨的或許都還大家參考相關的一些意見那如果不同黨的情況下遇到還是說什麼樣的每一個113席的老闆每一個的對這種事情的處理方式不一樣然後在立院持續的有這樣事情發生那最終最終要怎麼處理"},{"start":7210.562,"end":7210.803,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":7222.609,"end":7250.665,"text":"雖然他僱主就是立委但是跟委員所講的這個狀況實在是是是真的會發生類似這種狀況因為他他變成說這個他變是找他的僱主僱主處理啊僱主處理的方式有都不一樣所以我們也在想說類似這樣子的話我們要怎麼樣子比較有效的來來統一個規範來讓他們有納入我們也是在想方法在處理"},{"start":7251.425,"end":7274.531,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":7274.871,"end":7302.131,"text":"法令上事上是有它的困難度啦,所以還是要想辦法來做一些突破或怎麼樣。恭喜,同學說的是一樣但是另外一個,就是說我們立院也是在著重對這個緩霸凌、緩性騷,我們有一個單位管道也可以受理助理來做這樣的事情的一個緩令,然後可以幫他們解決這樣的事情。我們也在想方設法看能不能有一個"},{"start":7302.972,"end":7304.353,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":7324.827,"end":7326.968,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":7354.292,"end":7374.78,"text":"我們先做會議程序的宣告我們上午會議時間繼續進行至議程所列事項均處理完畢為止另外今日討論事項提案條文的宣讀時間約10分鐘我們一併先做說明那請大家就是待會宣讀時間做休息我們現在就不休息接下來我們請賴香林委員發言"},{"start":7377.292,"end":7404.97,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想請教秘書長就是昨天我們在報端還有今天的這個報紙很多的頭版提到了這個選前關鍵時刻有發生類似一個境外勢力造假的一個所謂監聽的資訊外露那這事情我不曉得秘書長我們在立院你有沒有收到任何的情資或者是相關的通報來跟您說"},{"start":7405.811,"end":7406.872,"text":"三、併案審查三、併案審查三、併案審查"},{"start":7421.331,"end":7444.768,"text":"也是今天早上那個王委員有提出這個我們也是完全不清楚我知道那個法務部調查局他們有說應該是假的但是我們也是想說不管是真假我們至少也在了解更清楚一些"},{"start":7445.871,"end":7472.157,"text":"是這樣的因為我在10月26號我們在司法委員會我也質詢過當時調查局我也給他稱讚就是說對於有一個所謂柯P的秘密會議的這個紀錄裡面他的聲音聽起來很像是柯P柯文哲主席但事實上後來調查局他們見識之後說那個是假的是假的那我覺得我們的技術上面在這個身為影音部分已經很有這個"},{"start":7473.257,"end":7474.138,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":7489.594,"end":7513.041,"text":"當然民主黨已經確認我們沒有收到任何的群職通報給我們立院那但是這一次在所謂的這個提供出來的所謂監聽所謂群職監聽這四個字當然我是括號的我說暫時用群職監聽這個來講好像包括了立院的一些委員政府的局處長甚至是這個"},{"start":7514.48,"end":7515.521,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":7532.022,"end":7533.964,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查三、併案審查四、併案審查五、併案審查"},{"start":7552.176,"end":7552.236,"text":"二、併案審查"},{"start":7582.977,"end":7608.26,"text":"對於假訊息的作戰,境外資金作戰跟境外勢力所謂借選與否應該是上升到認知作戰可能會混淆整個社會的秩序甚至對於很多的人跟人關係的信任度馬上就已經進到了一個比較風險跟威脅的情勢所以想請問我們法務部今天是有司長"},{"start":7610.103,"end":7615.526,"text":"副司長副司長副司長副司長副司長副司長副司長副司長副司長副司長副司長副司長副司長副司長副司長副司長副司長副司長"},{"start":7633.34,"end":7642.109,"text":"向委員報告,就像淳如委員所提到的,因為一應明年這個二合一的大選,所以我們按照過去選舉的這個經驗,我們知道說這個境外勢力的借選或者是假訊息一定會比以往更加的嚴重。所以這一次我們頒訂的這個查會的工作綱領裡面,我們把這個查緝境外勢力借選,還有這個查緝假訊息的部分列為我們的三大強韌策略之一,還有我們的重點工作。"},{"start":7656.423,"end":7660.824,"text":"那麼另外我們知道說要查緝這些假訊息或者是境外勢力竊選其實必須要靠有很廣泛的情資那我們才不會我們才不會就是說這個整個的偵查能量被這個消耗所以我們認為檢舉的情資非常重要所以我們在8月22號的時候也修正發布新的鼓勵檢舉防害選舉的這個獎金的這個要點所以我們把這個檢舉境外勢力竊選還有這個就是選舉賭盤的部分都納入在這一次可以給獎的這個範圍"},{"start":7684.889,"end":7684.969,"text":"一）委員長"},{"start":7702.022,"end":7703.725,"text":"一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、"},{"start":7716.537,"end":7740.437,"text":"所以想請教的就是說昨天晚上我們大概傍晚的時間就很多媒體在詢問各個委員對這件事情的看法到昨天的晚上大概邢太昭這個總長就已經認定這是一個監聽的資料境外勢力的認知作戰所為所以我只是想要確認我們現在剛剛講六都也有這個檢察署自己的指使"},{"start":7741.377,"end":7760.71,"text":"指揮系統,然後整體上面應該也是檢察總長這邊會有所謂情資跟判案的一個回報系統。所以這件事情到底在昨天,你們之前已經知道了,還是昨天同步時間,然後你們很快的在三、四個小時就可以認定,這個就是境外事業認知作戰。"},{"start":7761.87,"end":7769.876,"text":"跟委員報告這個事情我們也是昨天知道的那昨天知道的第一時間的時候調查局跟最高檢這邊都有進行了解那其實最高檢也有發布新聞稿從這個他認為說這個是境外的伺服器把這個訊息投放到社群的網站而且裡面有一些簡體字還有新聞的紀念那甚至有一些指稱跟電話的國碼都是有一些異議的所以據此初步的最高檢察署跟這個調查局判斷這可能應該是認知作戰"},{"start":7788.549,"end":7794.983,"text":"最高檢也在第一時間責成這個臺北地檢署分案來查處偵辦我們希望適時的可以釐清這整個事件"},{"start":7795.58,"end":7818.418,"text":"也許這個做法出道我們看出來的這個真實度很快可以辨明包括是所謂境外的伺服器所以你們很快的用這個做判準但是如果他做的微妙微笑甚至像之前2017年我們互證資料2300萬筆外洩的事情查證起來也比較困難沒有辦法很快的釐清那所以我是希望我們今天在這裡因為"},{"start":7821,"end":7844.211,"text":"主席還是我們司法相關專業的律師我是覺得這件事是不是可以請主席才是就是請調查局或者是法務部可以在兩周內給我們一個專案的報告就這件事情判斷的基準的速度性跟你們的專業度我們是支持的肯定但是這一次發言有五、六個單位都出來發言到底SOP是什麼"},{"start":7844.831,"end":7872.238,"text":"最後像發生過再次的狀況整體上國人的疑慮你們誰會是一個定於御尊的主責來對外說明不然你看國安局有這個大局然後還有我們自己的這個最高檢等等還有刑事局那連我們委員幾乎各黨團的總召副總召都被問所以我覺得這需要一個更完整的SOP來讓我們也瞭解如何參與就是說防堵認知作戰的一個角色"},{"start":7872.298,"end":7874.379,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查三、併案審查四、併案審查五、併案審查六、併案審查"},{"start":7894.406,"end":7894.626,"text":"李德維委員"},{"start":7912.097,"end":7925.11,"text":"主席,剛剛我們談到公報處的事情,因為剛剛副秘已經說明了,我就不再問,但本身有一個問題,"},{"start":7926.854,"end":7953.524,"text":"講到在立法院裡面立委被職場霸凌我們應該去哪裡申訴我們現在依照公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法那立院的這個小組可不可以接受立委的申訴我沒有說有發生我只是想要請教我們現在的制度我們現在制度應該是不包括立委不包括立委那立委怎麼辦立委"},{"start":7955.563,"end":7980.865,"text":"哭訴無聞,是這意思嗎?這個倒是個大問題啦。對不對?對啦。所以,來,秘書長,這問題怎麼解決?立委如果被霸凌的話...那現在的法令,立委都活該倒霉,是這意思嗎?也不是活該倒霉啦,這是立委比較...應該說立委他各方面的人力...所以立委不是公務員,是這意思嗎?"},{"start":7983.446,"end":8010.782,"text":"應該...來今天有這個...全序部...政治...請教立委是不是公務員我受到了職場霸凌或者...我們可以好好來想一想看怎麼處理來這個請教這個次長他是廣義的公職人員廣義的公職人員對因為我貪汙是用公務人員貪汙自費條例啊對不對但是我現在假如遭到職場霸凌我無處申訴請問國家全序部給我什麼保障考試院給我什麼保障這不只是立法院的問題喔"},{"start":8012.575,"end":8027.351,"text":"對不對大家應該思考一下在這個部分裡面你不能貪污的時候用公務人員法來辦我阿你現在我的職場被霸凌了你不給我申訴的管道這怎麼弄阿有沒有道理"},{"start":8030.583,"end":8057.771,"text":"應該要來思考看要什麼方法來有一個管道或是其他的方式。所以這個部分拜託去思考一下那接下來本席講的就是關於您今天這個我們立院也特別這個書面報告講到這個超明委員提的這個案子有關公費助理這部分當然我知道在行政單位的想法由於僱主是立委"},{"start":8058.934,"end":8083.106,"text":"所以立院的公費助理在這個編列相關的健康補助檢查的補助你們會覺得沒道理但是你們去思考一下中華電信有子公司有孫公司其實立法委員在立法院某種程度也算是立法院的其中的一員"},{"start":8084.656,"end":8101.126,"text":"其中的一份子所以立法委員底下所顧的公費助理我們現在講不是自費公費助理其實就跟中華電信的子公司孫公司是同樣的邏輯所以公務人員我這樣講不好意思"},{"start":8102.54,"end":8115.512,"text":"各位是都有保障的所以你覺得你無所謂但是人家爭取的時候你就排斥很糟糕我直接講因為我這也直接講所以來來來"},{"start":8120.957,"end":8139.404,"text":"請教一下民主黨你這裡面回答說113年年度預算不及編列然後規劃後明定那我想請問假如我們今天寫的我這從法律公佈施行日開始那你沒有錢你沒有編你怎麼弄"},{"start":8140.515,"end":8158.553,"text":"所以我們就希望說把它明定我們有提修正動議說希望能夠在114年1月1號開始做因為今年的預算已經編完了嘛所以明年當然就沒有這一筆預算嘛所以我們最快就是從"},{"start":8159.929,"end":8161.75,"text":"一、審查一、審查一、審查一、審查一、審查"},{"start":8176.994,"end":8194.735,"text":"公、包含權序部在內跟我們立法院各單位因為這個好我們沒有自肥的問題因為明年2月1號你就看不到我坐在這裡所以沒有自肥的問題但是千萬不要把立法委員的公費助理想成是外人"},{"start":8196.119,"end":8218.301,"text":"所以剛剛大家在後面您很猶豫的時候後面就猛搖頭我也看到啦因為後面的邏輯很簡單你立委聘的公費助理跟我無關我不用理你的死活你們就是這種態度送你三個字很糟糕不會啦我們不會這種態度很糟糕所以本席在這邊最後"},{"start":8219.537,"end":8235.385,"text":"還是要奉勸各位要把立法院能夠弄好是對於中華民國對於整體的制度是好的所以在這個部分裡面不要又去分內外你是公務員他是助理"},{"start":8236.385,"end":8237.346,"text":"接下來請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":8267.797,"end":8268.257,"text":"陳超明委員的提案"},{"start":8289.542,"end":8289.902,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":8308.081,"end":8308.261,"text":"總務處,請報告一下。"},{"start":8322.898,"end":8345.702,"text":"就不論是助理還是職員、院內的所有的人我們希望找附近鄰近的運動中心成為特約合作然後提供這些人運動和補助有跟委員報告我們已經去洽請這個中正健康運動中心就在我們這個附近他說沒有問題啦我們可以跟他正式"},{"start":8346.343,"end":8346.723,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":8366.314,"end":8367.675,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":8392.011,"end":8409.608,"text":"但是你知道秘書長這個除了立法院的人其實國會助理在工作上還有其他的困境2022年台灣大學有一篇學術論文叫國會助理工作壓力和離職傾向的研究"},{"start":8410.208,"end":8436.028,"text":"你知道最後那份研究裡面啊他們調查就是我們國會助理職業工會在2017年的調查國會助理的平均年資是多久你知道嗎你說時間多久還是對啦他們平均年資了你就現在立法院的助理你問他們每個將平均起來的國會助理的平均年資是多久"},{"start":8446.673,"end":8463.5,"text":"國會助理是立委在國會問政的臂膀,更是國家發展還有制度法規上的幕後推手。2017年的調查,國會助理平均年資是兩年多,年資在四年以下的高達57.8%。"},{"start":8467.27,"end":8491.438,"text":"你覺得這樣的年資是長還是短?這個當然是流動性太高了啦因為一任四年啊所以他只有大概還做不到一半的他就可能四年一任都做不到的是57.8%所以國會助理在立法院服務年資過於短對國家發展長期以來必定有相當程度的不良影響"},{"start":8492.56,"end":8514.316,"text":"我們國會立委都說要資深制可是國會的助理更是資深制啊所以結果我們現在的現況是國會助理是兩年兩年多所以由此可見這裡的工作環境和條件應該很差這裡立法院的工作環境和條件應該很差啦差到大家都不想來這裡工作了"},{"start":8515.33,"end":8531.715,"text":"所以這一篇論文要講的是討論國會助理個人的屬性職場的表現、外在的因素跟工作壓力的相關性然後他要去分析的是國會助理工作壓力跟離職傾向之間的相關性那他除了做文獻"},{"start":8532.335,"end":8534.336,"text":"一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、併案審查一、"},{"start":8549.352,"end":8571.3,"text":"其中工作內容過於繁重這本來就是工作處理時效過短薪資過低職涯生涯沒有保障而且不穩定四年老闆換了他就要換工作職場上的人際關係等等都可能成為國會助理產生影響且離職傾向的工作壓力而進而產生離職"},{"start":8575.269,"end":8587.579,"text":"工作繁重跟報酬不成比例啊。這一切都還跟他的工作不穩定還有相關。一任立委四年而已。"},{"start":8588.77,"end":8606.904,"text":"二、受訪者都表示應該儘速讓國會助理法制化,使國會助理的權益被保障,讓助理有完善的年資累積機制,而且要設輔導教學機制,還有心理輔導單位以保障國會助理的權益,進而降低國會助理的離職率。"},{"start":8610.472,"end":8634.037,"text":"這樣是很有道理的啦。很有道理的要怎麼做?現在其實我當立委也當伍介啦那我也是很希望就是幫這個國會助理來爭取能夠爭取到建檢是最簡單的啦建檢補助是最簡單的因為我們現在國會助理就是"},{"start":8636.13,"end":8648.773,"text":"為什麼沒有辦法納入就是因為他的身份他沒有那個公務人員的身份我們現在想就是要解決這件事啊所以這個問題就變成很棘手都會卡在這裡"},{"start":8649.741,"end":8665.484,"text":"公務人員身份的人不見得能夠勝任國會助理的工作和專業沒有錯但是因為他沒有這個身份所以很多的福利還有很多的那個保障啊等等就是沒有辦法適用在他身上所以我們是不是"},{"start":8666.665,"end":8666.845,"text":"三、併案審查"},{"start":8691.263,"end":8691.443,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":8711.175,"end":8712.856,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":8737.929,"end":8749.907,"text":"心理輔導這個領域我先跟你講勞動部你知道EAPS嗎EAPS就是Employee Assistance Program就是勞動部的定義的"},{"start":8751.434,"end":8753.915,"text":" （一）立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第10屆"},{"start":8774.662,"end":8795.399,"text":"所以這個EAPS這個Employee Assistance Program它包含要發現問題、問題評估、問題解決的系統然後依據這一些需求和工作性質選擇適當的服務模式那我們立法院助理、職員工加起來有多少人"},{"start":8797.216,"end":8805.448,"text":"我們現在這個的確這裡做的不夠啦,的確如此。我們加起來多少人?我們算一個大企業,比大企業還要大企業。我們請我啦。"},{"start":8808.772,"end":8815.135,"text":"現在要說的是EAPS這個概念從僱主和受僱的勞工之間其實企業都會採取這樣的一個模式其實是留財久用然後也解決企業裡面這些受僱的員工他的這個問題事實上其實是很重要的"},{"start":8833.602,"end":8855.511,"text":"謝謝委員我在這裡分享一個臺灣科技大學的他們的員工協助方案給你參考他們開放給教職員、助衛警、銷務基金約聘僱人員也給研究費向下的臨時專任助理用他們的心理諮詢是特約機構合作模式"},{"start":8862.014,"end":8879.125,"text":"請臺師大的社區諮商中心的心理諮商所提供服務。服務的方式是上網填寫表單、去店預約,而且要做到身份保密,而且要注重申請人的隱私。"},{"start":8880.666,"end":8885.331,"text":"新田心理諮商所新田心理諮商所"},{"start":8898.464,"end":8914.891,"text":"你們有一個立法院公報處員工下跪陳情不滿主管標章化威脅考積打疑等這個主管他顯然有一些情緒失控的問題"},{"start":8916.124,"end":8931.086,"text":"然後這一個下跪的人他沒有別無他法了需要尋求體制外還到下跪了給你下跪了遞交陳情書了那他受到相當大的壓力考積打一等的壓力他也需要輔導"},{"start":8932.518,"end":8956.309,"text":"所以對其他的國會助理來講也需要心理輔導所以我在講說其實我們這個地方比起臺科大比起這個其他的私人企業我們真的是相當的需要這個EAPS專案所以我們需要這個EAPS專案我們應該要儘速的來提供心理諮商的這個資源"},{"start":8957.95,"end":8982.356,"text":"因為這個壓力來源你知道像助理他只有老闆給他壓力選舉的壓力他也有家庭的壓力老闆叫他要加班老闆現在選舉到了叫他要到南部去下鄉然後他家庭裡面不允許他這麼做壓力雙重快要崩潰了所以在這種狀況裡面有時候他可能就是需要一些輔導的機制或是一些輔導的資源進來"},{"start":8984.036,"end":8993.164,"text":"秘書長你自己也是縱管全院你一定可以理解到立法院的職場生活不論是接助理或是職員工甚至是立委本人"},{"start":8994.707,"end":9016.096,"text":"每個人在不同的場域感受到的壓力強弱都不同我們真的真的需要在立法院提供這樣的資源協助去提升助理或是職員工對個人心理健康的這個意識那也要積極的照顧這些助理和職員工的心理健康我想4500元照顧有形的肉體"},{"start":9017.196,"end":9033.941,"text":"但是心理上的壓力上的這也不亞於這4500元的健檢他可能還更急迫那我再講一個報道者的文章啊那個我先回應一下就這個我"},{"start":9035.249,"end":9035.769,"text":"（二、併案審查（二）"},{"start":9056.431,"end":9081.088,"text":"就可以編列了如果你們三個月研議好了那大概會有多少需求?明年度預算我說你明年四月編預算的時候啊四年編預算那你現在年底了再有三個月讓你研議啊那看一下我們員工的需求啊那尋求專業需要的資源會預估是多少啊?明年度應該就可以來編列編列預算所以也是可以在後年就開始了嘛"},{"start":9082.589,"end":9082.749,"text":"二、併案審查"},{"start":9101.937,"end":9102.558,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":9119.361,"end":9143.181,"text":"在澳洲心理健康是個政治議題所以他們從事政治人物的人都要提出心理健康的方案所以大家非常看重所謂的心理健康這個層次所以他就個人層次來講他也非常倡議說應該要普遍的去認同說只要有心理上的問題求助你要去求助可是求助這件事情是需要學習的"},{"start":9144.315,"end":9147.197,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":9164.571,"end":9191.184,"text":"所以透過國家級的投入和補助讓求助常態化可以替代自殺常態化當然我們立法院對於心理輔導心理諮商這一塊還沒有還不是為了解決自殺這一塊啦但是說我們這個早期早期的這個介入輔導有設資源有設管道讓大家可以進去否則你看我們立法院公報處員工下跪陳情"},{"start":9194.065,"end":9219.145,"text":"公報處的處長把國會頻道的承辦職員叫到辦公室怒罵不斷地以情緒怒罵然後還大罵髒話所有人都聽得到然後威脅要給人家考試打一等這一些都已經失控了的確也需要一些專業不只是職員工是助理也很多鬱悶啦不只是助理立委也有很多壓力啦"},{"start":9220.345,"end":9220.965,"text":"三、併案審查三、併案審查"},{"start":9241.81,"end":9242.851,"text":"請立法院出席"},{"start":9268.4,"end":9293.519,"text":"邱辰遠委員、邱辰遠委員、邱辰遠委員不在。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢,詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關盡速送交個別委員會及本會。委員邱辰遠、謝一鳳、吳祁銘所提書面質詢均列入紀錄刊登公報,並請相關機關以書面答覆。"},{"start":9297.529,"end":9313.075,"text":"現在進行討論事項,請議事人員就討論事項各案的提案條文一併宣讀,宣讀時間大概10分鐘,宣讀後即進行討論,修正動議一併宣讀,與會者如有需要可利用宣讀時間上洗手間。"},{"start":9319.913,"end":9341.865,"text":"討論事項第一案．立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．委員陳超明等提案第三十二條．促增訂第三項為．立法院因每年編列預算．針對公費助理實施健康檢查．其項目方法由立法院另定之．予未修正第二案司法人員人事條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":9342.935,"end":9370.923,"text":"委員黃世杰等提案第三條除將第三款條文中最高法院檢察署修正為最高檢察署第四款修正為四高等檢察署以下各級檢察署及其檢察分署檢察長、主任檢察官、檢察官其餘未修正委員游毓蘭等提案第三條對照委員黃世杰等提案除將序文中左列修正為下列以外其餘同委員黃世杰等提案"},{"start":9372.662,"end":9379.294,"text":"委員黃世杰等提案第四條,除將序文中左列修正為下列,另增訂第三款。"},{"start":9381.118,"end":9403.255,"text":"三、主任檢查事務官檢查事務官令第四款至第十款由原第三款至第九款條文第一其餘未修正。委員黃世杰等提案第九條除將第一項序文中地方法院或其分院檢查署修正為地方檢查署及其檢查分署其餘未修正。"},{"start":9404.522,"end":9434.137,"text":"委員黃世杰等提案第11條除將第一項序文中高等法院或其分院檢查署修正為高等檢查署及其檢查分署另第一項第一款中及第二項中地方法院或其分院檢查署均修正為地方檢查署及其檢查分署以外其未修正委員黃世杰等提案第12條除將序文中最高法院檢查署修正為最高檢查署"},{"start":9435.677,"end":9465.22,"text":"第一款、第二款首具中及第三款倒數第二具中的高等法院或其分院檢查署均修正為高等檢查署及其檢查分署令第二款第二具中地方法院或其分院檢查署修正為地方檢查署及其檢查分署其餘未修正文游欲蘭等提案第12條對照文黃世杰等提案除序文中左列修正為下列"},{"start":9467.017,"end":9491.566,"text":"令第一款、第二款首具及第三款倒數第二具中的高等檢查署及其檢查分署中的集字均修正為貨字。第二款第二具中的地方檢查署及其檢查分署中的集字修正為貨字。其餘通委員黃世杰等提案。委員黃世杰等提案第13條"},{"start":9493.226,"end":9509.495,"text":"除將首句中的地方法院及其分院檢查署修正為地方檢查署及其檢查分署第二句中的高等法院或其分院檢查署修正為高等檢查署及其檢查分署以外其一未修正。委員黃世杰等提案第14條"},{"start":9511.141,"end":9537.991,"text":"除將首具中的高等法院及其分院檢查署修正為高等檢查署及其檢查分署第二具中的最高法院檢查署修正為最高檢查署以外其餘未修正委員游毓蘭等提案第14條同委員黃世杰等提案委員黃世杰等提案第15條除將條文中高等法院以下各級法院及其分院檢查署修正為高等檢查署以下"},{"start":9538.971,"end":9559.051,"text":"各級檢查署及其檢查分署其餘未修正委員黃世杰等提案第二十條之二檢查事務官應就具有擬任職務任用資格及下列資格之一者任用之依經公務人員高等考試或司法人員特種考試相當等級之檢查事務官考試及格者"},{"start":9559.992,"end":9561.674,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":9584.096,"end":9605.579,"text":"成績優良具有兼任職任用資格者前項第二款至第四款人員應經徵審訓練合格其有關年齡限制、資格條件、成績優良、徵試程序及訓練方式等相關事項之徵審及訓練辦法由行政院定之。主任檢查事務官"},{"start":9606.466,"end":9617.379,"text":"應就具有檢察事務官及擬任職等之任用資格,並有領導才能者臨任之具律師職業資格者任檢察事務官期間記錄其律師職業年資。"},{"start":9620.475,"end":9645.775,"text":"委員黃世杰等提案第28303號第27條除將第二項條文中最高法院檢察署修正為最高檢察署外其餘未修正。委員黃世杰等提案第10033864號第27條除將第二項條文中法務部司法官訓練所修正為法務部司法官學院以外其餘未修正。"},{"start":9646.576,"end":9654.427,"text":"委員游毓蘭等提案第27條除將第二項條文中最高法院檢察署修正為最高檢察署外其餘未修正"},{"start":9656.004,"end":9678.629,"text":"委員黃世杰等提案第32條除將第一項序文中左列修正為下列第一款修正為一、因內亂外患貪污故意賭職罪受判刑確定者第二款第二具修正為受有期徒刑以上刑之宣告確定者第四款修正為四、受監護之宣告者"},{"start":9680.186,"end":9707.927,"text":"憎定第二項時任司法官受監護或輔助之宣告者自宣告之日起得依相關規定辦理退休或資遣第三項由原第二項條文遞移其餘未修正委員黃世杰等提案第40條處將第三項條文中公務人員退休法及公務人員撫恤法修正為公務人員退休資遣撫恤法以外其餘未修正委員黃世杰等提案第41條"},{"start":9709.83,"end":9737.572,"text":"除將守具中公務人員退休法修正為公務人員退休之前撫恤法另莫具條文為其辦法由司法官、會同、考試院、行政院以命令之其餘未修正委員黃世杰等提案第42條除將莫具中的得依公務人員任用法修正為得依公務人員退休之前撫恤法及公務人員任用法其餘未修正"},{"start":9738.493,"end":9750.9,"text":"委員黃世杰等提案第43條司法官之撫恤適用公務人員退休之前撫恤法之規定第三案公調人員保險法第12條及第36條條文修正草案"},{"start":9754.608,"end":9776.659,"text":"委員劉建國等提案第十二條,除徵定第五項條文為,被保險人在保險有效期間懷孕且符合第36條第一項規定之參加保險日數,與保險效力停止後一年內因同一懷孕事故而分免或招餐者,得勤領生育給付,其餘未修正。"},{"start":9778.373,"end":9791.063,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第36條除增訂第四項及第五項條文威。第一項各款期間制計算曾參加其他社會保險者應合併計算該保險之投保總年資。"},{"start":9792.458,"end":9818.102,"text":"第一項生育給付之發給保險人間因依被保險人參加各該保險之投保期間案比例分攤其相關辦法由中央主管機關會同有關機關定之其餘未修正委員邱志偉等提案第36條除第一項修正為被保險人與繳付本保險保險費後分免早產或留產者得勤領生育給付"},{"start":9819.585,"end":9830.273,"text":"第三項首具聚首的第一項等文字刪除外其餘未修正宣讀完畢。繼續修正動議部分討論事項第一案修正動議一"},{"start":9832.509,"end":9853.221,"text":"對照性行條文第32條增訂第三項（立法院應每年編列預算補助公費助理實施健康檢查及文康活動費用其對象項目方法標準及其他應遵行之事項由立法院另訂之自中華民國114年1月1日施行復表未修正提案人委員林思明等"},{"start":9854.401,"end":9870.275,"text":"修正動議二、對照性行條文第32條、增訂第三項至第五項。依職業安全衛生法第20條規定,立法院應每年編列預算針對公費助理實施健康檢查,其補助項目及標準比照公務員一般健康檢查實施要點之規定。"},{"start":9871.596,"end":9897.948,"text":"立法院因每年編列預算補助每位公費助理一定金額之文康費用並由立法院國會助理工會擬具計畫向立法院人事處提出申請及核銷。第三、四項補助費用致重劃民國143年1月1日施行提案人委員鄭韻鵬等。談論四項第二案修正動議一對照性行條文第二十七條第二項條文中司法官訓練所修正為司法官學院"},{"start":9898.988,"end":9911.157,"text":"最高法院檢察署修正委最高檢察署第41條首具修正委時任司法官合於公務人員退休此前撫恤法或公務人員個人專戶制退休此前撫恤法退休規定"},{"start":9912.847,"end":9941.173,"text":"第四十二條,莫具修正為得依公務人員退休此前撫恤法或公務人員個人專戶自退休此前撫恤法及公務人員任用法有關此前之規定此前提案人委員鄭應鵬等。討論事項第三案修正動議一,對照現行條文第36條第一項第一款第二款修正為一、在保險有效期間分娩或早產二、在保險有效期間懷孕且於保險效率停止後一年內"},{"start":9942.133,"end":9971.166,"text":"因同意懷孕事故而分免或早產。曾定第四項及第五項,被保險人同時符合相關社會保險生意給付或因軍公教身份擬領國家給予之生意補助擬領條件者,僅得擇依擬領。被保險人於本法中華民國103年6月1日修正生效後至某年某月某日修正之本條文施行前,具有第一項各款情形之一,且未因同意分免或早產事實領取本保險或相關社會保險生意給付。"},{"start":9971.966,"end":9985.26,"text":"或應軍公教身份擬國家給予之生育補助者（可依某年某月修（某日修正之本條文施行前（之給予標準擬擬生育給付。厲二（委員林思明、陳玉珍等"},{"start":9986.661,"end":10009.596,"text":"修正動議二、對照性行條文第36條,第一項,第一款中刪除滿280日等文字,第二款刪除條文中滿181日等文字,第二項條文中給予兩個月修正為給予三個月,增訂第四項,中華民國某年某月某日修正制本條文施行前分年或遭殘者,"},{"start":10010.536,"end":10016.742,"text":"其擬生意己負．人事用修正施行前置規定．提案人委員賴香林、．陳妍等宣讀完畢。"},{"start":10046.307,"end":10046.588,"text":"來啦來啦"},{"start":10049.617,"end":10052.98,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":10078.55,"end":10085.406,"text":"二十條之二不一定真定嗎?是二十條之二嗎?不一定真定嗎?你有寫出來?我知道,沒有問題,我會帶起來。"},{"start":10109.773,"end":10135.519,"text":"我們現在開始進行討論那提案條文及修正動議均已宣讀完畢現在開始討論討論事項第一案審查陳超明等22人擬具《立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案》因為條文僅有一條我們是不是審列大體討論直接進行逐條審查沒有異議好那沒有意見的話我們現在開始進行逐條審查那麼"},{"start":10138.902,"end":10164.392,"text":"立法院組織法第三十二條我們總共有陳超明委員的提案還有我還有志願委員的修正動議那政委員那個修正動議已經涵蓋在我的修正動議裡面那立法院那個也沒有意見嘛那我們立法院組織法三十二條的我們就依照林思明委員等五人所提修正動議通過"},{"start":10170.716,"end":10187.39,"text":"本案主條已處理完畢,作以下宣告本案審查完畢,擬具審查報告,提請院會公決本案不須交由黨團協商,無異見。院會討論時,由林召集委員施明出席說明。"},{"start":10189.222,"end":10207.459,"text":"條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理。討論事項第一案已審查完略。列席本院黎明署長及幕僚代表應令有要供,請先行離席。"},{"start":10211.486,"end":10230.648,"text":"現在進行討論事項第二案（併案審查委員黃世杰等16人擬具司法人員人事條例部分條文修正草案等三案。為求效率,我們是不是也審列大體討論?直接進行逐條審查?好,無異議。如果沒有意見的話,現在開始進行逐條審查。"},{"start":10234.636,"end":10257.842,"text":"我們現在先進行第三條第三條我想大家都沒有意見就按照黃世杰委員等16人的提案通過第四條也是按照黃世杰委員等16人的提案通過這都沒有爭議第九條也依照黃世杰委員等16人的提案"},{"start":10259.175,"end":10287.591,"text":"有沒有意見?沒有意見我們就通過第11條也按照黃世杰委員等16人的提案通過第12條我們也是依照委員黃世杰等16人的提案通過第13條第13條我們有這個少一個極致那我們就按照委員黃世杰等16人的提案修正通過"},{"start":10291.686,"end":10307.962,"text":"第14條也是按照委員黃世杰等16人的提案通過。第15條也按照委員黃世杰等16人的提案通過。增訂20條之二,法務部有意見,請法務部說明。"},{"start":10310.283,"end":10334.43,"text":"主席、各位委員跟大家報告一下有關於第20條之二的增訂的部分那第20條之二的這個增訂的部分呢事實上第一項、第三項跟第四項跟法院組織法的第66條之四的第一項、第三項、第四項的規範都是相同它基本上在規範假事務官、主任假事務官的任用資格還有律師職業資格、職業年資計算的這個相當的規定所以我們認為說這個部分是不是不需要再做重複的規定"},{"start":10335.29,"end":10351.658,"text":"那唯一有差異的就是說這個增訂了第20條之二的第二項裡面它規範到就是說如果是從其他的人來領選的時候呢相關的徵審還有訓練的辦法由行政院定之那但是跟委員報告就是說目前我們的假事務官基本上的來源都是從考試來的我們暫時沒有規劃說"},{"start":10354.139,"end":10357.42,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":10378.609,"end":10406.25,"text":"好,那我們20條之二就依照法務部的意見,不亦爭定。沒有異議我們就通過。第27條,那有志文朋委員有提修正動議。那我們是不是依照志文朋委員,要講一下嗎?不用啦,那我們就依志文朋委員的修正動議通過。那第32條,我們依黃世杰委員等16人的提案通過。"},{"start":10408.171,"end":10426.839,"text":"第40條黃世杰委員的因為第40條還有第43條的修正均已於令案修正通過在112年12月5日本院第10屆第8會期第10次會議三讀通過所以第40條有43條均不亦採納本條均不亦採納第41條我們也是政評委員有一個修正動議"},{"start":10437.54,"end":10457.581,"text":"那各位我們就依照 委員的修正動議通過 有沒有意見?沒有喔?好我有意見喔?第42條 委員也有修正動議我們是不是也依照 委員所提的修正動議通過 有沒有意見?沒有意見喔?第三條 我們不亦採納"},{"start":10462.162,"end":10484.769,"text":"本案已處理完畢,作以下宣告。本案審查完畢,擬具審查報告提請院會公決。本案是否需交到檔案學商?不需要。本案不需交到檔案學商。院會討論時,由林昭吉委員施明出席說明。條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語,授權主席及議事人員整理。"},{"start":10491.513,"end":10512.619,"text":"我們進行討論事項第三案（併案審查委員劉建國等18人擬具公教人員保險法第十二條條文修正草案等三案為求效率我們是不是審列大體討論直接進行逐條審查沒有異議好我們沒有意見的話現在開始進行逐條審查第十二條"},{"start":10523.147,"end":10547.766,"text":"請全序部做說明就這個修正案請全序部做說明十二條部分我們是建議在36條裡面鎮定就可以直接就涵蓋在36條一併修正日數都用在36就可以了那十二條我們就不予修正十二條不用修正對十二條我們就不予修正把它一併納入36條來一起做修正"},{"start":10549.397,"end":10562.797,"text":"二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查二、併案審查"},{"start":10564.651,"end":10586.348,"text":"我本人的一個還有陳一貞委員的修正動議還有賴香林委員、邱承遠委員等所提修正動議那我我們看仔細看了就是說我的版本修正動議版本都涵蓋幾位委員的一個修正動議的內容而且比較完整所以"},{"start":10587.449,"end":10608.57,"text":"是不是就依照我的一個（我的版本（還有陳一貞等（就我（陳一貞等6人所提的修正動議案來通過?鄭文維委員有沒有意見?好,鄭文維委員沒有意見。那我們第36條就依照陳一貞委員等6人所提修正動議案通過。"},{"start":10613.295,"end":10642.281,"text":"現在處理委員針對第三案所提附帶決議。請宣讀。討論事項第三案附帶決議,配合公教人員保險法第36條之修正。行政院因同步修正勞工保險條例第31條給予相同條件之生育給付,並於軍人保險條例中增列相同條件之生育給付條文。提案人委員鄭雲鵬、林四民、湯惠貞等。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":10644.377,"end":10644.637,"text":"請機關針對委員所提的附帶決議做說明勞動部"},{"start":10662.519,"end":10681.493,"text":"就是各位委員因為這個配合公保法三十六條的一個修正要同步修正勞保條例三十一條的這個條件會涉及到我們勞工保險的一個給付條件的一個放寬那陳如我上午的時候有跟委員報告過"},{"start":10682.834,"end":10711.232,"text":"就是我們勞保跟公保基本上它的一個適用的對象是不一樣的那勞保它的門檻是比較低而且考量到我們這個給付的一個適當性跟勞保的一個財務所以我們是不是建議說把這個文字那個第二句話建請研議修正勞工保險條例第31條給予相同條件之生意給付之可行性"},{"start":10712.012,"end":10725.83,"text":"就把文字稍微做幾個調整這樣子那不曉得委員因為剛找不到委員不好意思剛好沒有看到委員所以沒有辦法事先跟他那邊請示"},{"start":10727.552,"end":10734.099,"text":"我先請這位委員牽涉到慧環那邊,因為有勞保又有軍保。早上我質詢有提到,牽涉到勞保跟軍保。"},{"start":10743.969,"end":10771.975,"text":"在過去的慣例上來說我們這些決議通常對他們會回到該委員會所以大概精神知道就好也請莊委回去轉達好不好也不用修文字了這一案我撤掉但是因為裡面剛才那個昭偉你們提案裡面在36條裡面有寫到軍公教那其中軍其實不給付所以他的軍人保險法條例裡面還是要去改啦好不好這一點也跟昭偉跟您報告一下那這一案我撤掉"},{"start":10774.752,"end":10778.534,"text":"請勞動部就帶回去,因為今天國防部沒有來,所以另外我們再處理。"},{"start":10785.149,"end":10807.477,"text":"本案主條均已處理完畢,作以下宣告。本案審查完畢,擬具審查報告提請院會公決。本案是否需交由黨團協商?不用。本案不需交由黨團協商。院會討論時,由林召集委員施明出席說明。條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語,授權主席及議事人員處理。"},{"start":10815.303,"end":10821.232,"text":"議程所列事項均已處理完畢。本次會議到此結束。現在散會。謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"15339","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15339","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eaf403cf36e05f7bd9445fc32f41448fc046d53a332764a535fa8a2546e951488c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查時代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員張其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員王美惠等22人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案。）","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-07","start_time":"2023-12-07T08:30:16+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-12"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-07T14:18:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":20864,"委員發言時間":"08:30:16 - 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三、審查中華民國涉及活動及涉及器材權益促進會未建議修正《槍炮彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書》一案。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1909.383,"end":1918.715,"text":"本日議程所列討論事項和並詢答首先介紹在場的委員及列席的官員。我們首先介紹的是我們的游益蘭莊委、還有莊瑞雄委員、內政部林右昌部長、"},{"start":1928.786,"end":1948.503,"text":"地政司王成基司長、警政署黃明照署長、警政署刑事警察局周佑偉局長、警政署保安組李全哲組長、海洋委員會周梅武副主委、海域安全處黃宣凱處長、"},{"start":1950.305,"end":1962.312,"text":"海保署吳龍進副署長、海巡署巡訪組廖雲宏組長、營住民族委員會綜合規劃處亞博蘇勇、博伊哲奴處長、"},{"start":1964.264,"end":1980.697,"text":"大陸委員會法證處李佩如組長、法務部檢察司郭永芳司長、調部辦事主任檢察官李秀琳、司法院朱家川法官、"},{"start":1985.425,"end":1997.897,"text":"國防部作戰及計劃參謀次長是聯合作戰計劃處理昌富副處長。文化部影視及流行音樂產業局電影產業組楊秀玉組長。經濟部地質調查及礦業管理中心許慶元組長。"},{"start":2008.271,"end":2035.237,"text":"标准检验局王俊超组长、产业发展署曾智雄副组长、农业部业署刘家珍副组长、交通部行政司郑鸿正检任记证、财政部官务署检任集合曾正达、行政与人事行政总组组编人力处专门委员蔡县伟。"},{"start":2039.767,"end":2042.174,"text":"請提案委員說明提案要旨,首先請郵抓委員提案說明。"},{"start":2054.58,"end":2073.752,"text":"介於近來陸續查獲新型態的改造槍炮或持槍在公共場所鳴槍的行為已經造成大眾恐慌,使有修正相關管理規範以維護社會治安及保障人民權益之必要。"},{"start":2074.632,"end":2091.759,"text":"隨著科技發展日新月異,槍炮彈藥的主要組成零件材質不斷推陳出新,國內製造的模擬槍及遊戲用槍在樣式、尺寸及材質上均極度仿真,為避免"},{"start":2092.919,"end":2108.231,"text":"該等槍枝零件遭改造使用與組裝非製式槍炮有關槍炮及彈藥主要組成零件的材質以及殺傷力之認定本行修法組裝應該經由槍炮彈藥審認爭議諮詢小組採納各界的意見審議後由中央主管機關公告已度爭議。"},{"start":2122.694,"end":2139.848,"text":"另外,為了因應擴大公民參與的潮流趨勢,審議小組的組成應該聆聘相關機關代表及專家學者且外聘委員元素不得少於全體委員的二分之一以為審議之專業"},{"start":2142.29,"end":2157.801,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":2159.022,"end":2160.463,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":2174.855,"end":2192.521,"text":"長所之開槍犯案行為應該加以明確規範。另外,違反槍砲彈藥刀戒管制條例的行為人在偵審過程曾經自白,但卻供詞反覆或供述不實,為避免"},{"start":2193.823,"end":2214.201,"text":"造成社會重大危害與保護他人生命、身體安全之重大法益,原修法規定得由法官依個案事實衡酌判斷,加重其刑至二分之一。法規在執行更應符合法律明確性,規範對象、規範行為及法律效果應明確。"},{"start":2219.085,"end":2228.994,"text":"使受規範者能夠清楚預見,以消滅爭議,故本席主張應組成具有專業、中立、客觀之槍砲彈藥爭議諮詢小組進行各項槍砲彈藥爭議審議,使執法機關有明確"},{"start":2240.885,"end":2249.608,"text":"依循而非讓基層員警疲於奔命及明確規範相關違法行為以確保社會安定。"},{"start":2263.353,"end":2265.914,"text":"在場所有媒體朋友、聯席官員,建議我國多起一個抽砂船違法的行為。行為人都主張所用的抽砂船或器具非屬其所有,企圖來規避這樣的一個法則。"},{"start":2280.838,"end":2299.348,"text":"同時在我們刑法第38條第二項的規定是供犯罪所用、犯罪預備之物、犯罪所得之物屬於犯罪行為忍者得、沒受之,但有特別規定者以其規定。為了避免類似的情況再發生,所以以刑法38條第二項的但書為核心,"},{"start":2301.129,"end":2324.904,"text":"我們提出了《中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案》案。針對此條的第三項所定的犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備徵定不論屬於犯罪行為人與否,莫收之,以完備法令的一個規範。根據我們各位委員,我們共同來討論跟支持。謝謝。"},{"start":2327.443,"end":2328.305,"text":"中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文"},{"start":2340.683,"end":2358.081,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生,以下請就《中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法》以及《槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案》,請將本部意見說明如此。請各位委員參考。"},{"start":2359.622,"end":2379.811,"text":"首先在中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法部分有關莊瑞雄委員等17人、蔡易餘委員等16人提出提案修正中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文針對第三項鎖定犯罪用之傳播或其他"},{"start":2380.951,"end":2401,"text":"機械設備、增訂不問屬於犯罪行為人與否等內容已完備法令規範,本部對此次的修法予以尊重,為暗涉檢察官偵查起訴實務及法官自量財量權,是否透過修法限縮法院財量空間,本部尊重協商共識。"},{"start":2403.175,"end":2428.331,"text":"有關槍炮彈藥、刀械管制條例。一、為技術杜絕、改造槍枝及彈藥零件流通、公然開槍行為以及開槍後隨即吸械、自首行為及開放隱士、設置運用模擬槍等本部積極研修槍炮彈藥、刀械管制條例、多方參採實務以及學者的意見。"},{"start":2429.572,"end":2436.525,"text":"僅行政院院會審查遵事,並在112年10月6日由行政院函請大院審議。三、"},{"start":2441.741,"end":2463.926,"text":"沙格趙委員等21人提案修正第五條之二條文部分,委員提案與行政院草案政策方向尚無敵處,建議與行政院板併案討論。三、時代立法黨團提案修正第20條之一部分,行政院板修正草案第20條之一,增設隱私設置用模擬槍之規定,並設置模擬槍評估審議委員會。"},{"start":2467.927,"end":2490.846,"text":"在行政院提案範疇已包括委員提案,建議與行政院版併案討論。三、張祺祿委員等18人提案修正第五條之一及第20條之一與行政院版修正草案第20條之一偵測隱私設置用模擬槍支規定,行政院提案範疇已包括委員提案,建議與行政院版併案討論。"},{"start":2492.507,"end":2509.286,"text":"陳明文委員等18人提案修正第六條之一、第七條、第八條、第十二條、第十三條、第十八條以及第二十條之一有關提高刑務部分,是否能兼顧其他法律刑務之恆平性?本部尊重權責機關之意見,建議在於審酌。"},{"start":2513.417,"end":2540.607,"text":"陳柏惟、許智傑委員等18人提案修正第四條、第五條之二、第五條之三、第六條之一及第二十條之一提升模擬槍管制並將模擬槍零件一併納入管制範疇部分。本次行政院的提案第二十條之一有偵測隱私設置用模擬槍規定已包含委員提案,建議與行政院版併案討論。參與委員等19人提案修正第七條"},{"start":2542.301,"end":2557.858,"text":"提高製造販賣及持有制式、非制式槍炮之刑期並增訂第二十二條第三項提高檢舉獎金有關提高刑度部分是否能兼顧其他法律刑度之含平性本不尊重權責機關的意見"},{"start":2559.844,"end":2571.905,"text":"令本部予預告修正檢舉違反槍炮彈藥刀械管制條例案件給獎辦法,全面提升檢舉獎金,是否須在特別規範,宜在於審酌。"},{"start":2573.82,"end":2593.521,"text":"莫美林委員等16人提案修正第四條將空炮彈納入管制部分因其數量龐大且民間普遍使用工業用釘槍考量民間工業發展及一般民眾使用本次行政委員法草案於第十三條之一針列子彈主要組成零件處罰規定"},{"start":2594.983,"end":2605.8,"text":"以將中央敵火之空炮彈將一併納入管制,達到沿途管制改造彈藥之效果,先進提案範疇已包含委員提案,一再於審酌。"},{"start":2607.796,"end":2634.222,"text":"王美惠委員等22人提案修正第四條、第五條之三、第九條之一、第十三條、第十三條之一、第十八條之修正草案有關第九條之一提高行動及第十八條之第一項及第四項修正不得免除其行部分是否能兼顧其他法律行動之含平性本部尊重全策機關之意見"},{"start":2635.422,"end":2648.378,"text":"其所提修正意見與本部意見大致相同,本部竟表同意。蘇伊蘭委員等16人提案修正第四條、第五條之三、第九條之一、第十八條"},{"start":2649.932,"end":2677.122,"text":"有關修正條文第四條第三項槍炮彈藥主要組成零件材質與種類及殺傷力之認定基準,本部件表同意。修正條文第五條之三部分規範諮詢小組外聘委員比例為二分之一,而本部件為至少三分之一。修正條文第十八條第四項後段部分,"},{"start":2678.977,"end":2701.483,"text":"倘行為人於自白後又拒絕供訴或供訴不實者授權法官依個案事實權衡得加重其刑至二分之一規定,是否能兼顧其他法律刑部之含平性,本部尊重權責機關之意見。委員所提修正草案與本部意見大致相同,本部競表同意。"},{"start":2702.783,"end":2727.595,"text":"陳廷飛委員等16人提案修正第四條、第五條之二、第五條之三、第九條之一、第十三條、第十三條之一、第十八條、第二十條之一、第二十條之二、第二十條之三、第二十五條修正草案第十三條部分及修正草案第十三條之一提高刑度部分尊重委員之提案。"},{"start":2728.735,"end":2743.109,"text":"至於是否能兼顧其他法律行動之含平性,本不尊重權責機關之意見,其一部分大致與行政院提案之內容相同,建議與行政院版併案討論。以上其大院委員予以支持,敬請指教。謝謝。"},{"start":2759.932,"end":2787.592,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生,大家好。海洋委員會成立以來,承蒙大院委員支持與指教,使得各項海洋事務循序推展,再次表達至高的謝意。針對本日排審之專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法,感謝大院的關切與重視,並優先納入審議排程。本日應邀提出報告及說明,敬請各位委員會以支持不吝指導。"},{"start":2788.735,"end":2793.292,"text":"大陸抽砂船為規避我方的查緝常常利用夜案"},{"start":2794.434,"end":2809.757,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":2823.599,"end":2848.495,"text":"當的這些風險之大是難以超乎想像的。我海巡同仁都是冒著生命危險來執法,捍衛我國的海洋資源與權益。臺灣是民主國家,司法獨立。我們也必須尊重法官林岸、余恆的裁量權。而判決的法律見解不同,會造成判決的落差過大。海巡署於110年所查扣的展勝98號及華益9號,"},{"start":2851.877,"end":2877.663,"text":"這兩艘抽砂船正因為法官的見解不同,產生一艘判決沒收,一艘撤銷沒收的判決。那麼完全相反的判決,深深打擊了基層海巡的士氣,未來也恐將造成海巡第一線同仁在執法上的摯愛。大陸抽砂船違法的抽砂,破壞我國海域的生態、環境甚巨。"},{"start":2879.813,"end":2893.704,"text":"為了有效防堵抽砂船違法抽砂的行為,避免犯罪行為的人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有規避罰則,本次大院委員針對中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法提案修法,"},{"start":2899.989,"end":2926.374,"text":"就其犯罪用的船舶或其他機械設備,徵定不問屬於犯罪行為人與否的內容,讓遂行抽殺這種惡行的船舶,不問是否為行為人所有,都應與沒收。除可有效嚇阻違法抽殺船的行為外,更能完備海巡機關執行工作時所需的法制,提升惡煮抽殺船違法抽殺行為之效。"},{"start":2927.034,"end":2931.595,"text":"以上報告敬請執教,並祝各位委員身體健康,萬事如意。"},{"start":2934.98,"end":2961.91,"text":"其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報。現在進行委員諮詢前,原例做幾點宣告。本會委員發言時間5分鐘,必要時延長2分鐘。非本會委員發言時間5分鐘,上午11時截止發言登記。因為經營法案處理本次會議就不處理臨時提案。請問各位委員有沒有意見?"},{"start":2963.114,"end":2968.975,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":2990.102,"end":3010.89,"text":"從去年下半年開始,陸續發生很多起社會矚目槍擊案件,造成多人死傷,也影響社會穩定,對治安造成衝擊。警政署統計分析顯示,改造槍枝零件日益精良,取得容易,"},{"start":3011.69,"end":3036.208,"text":"同時又因為改造的子彈來源充沛,如果沒有及時的控管,對於自安危害程度會升高。因此對於本次的修法,本席先肯定政府在打擊不法槍支彈藥上的決心。但是這次的修法,似乎對於合法的業者還是有一些趕盡殺絕的疑慮。主要的原因是因為我們看到這個現在"},{"start":3040.331,"end":3062.865,"text":"技術很進步,真槍跟模擬槍跟玩具槍的區別越來越小。我們羅美林召委在兩個星期前,我們有安排到成功嶺的替代役的訓練中心去。其實他們現在有很多的訓練,射擊訓練都是玩具槍,都是用玩具槍。"},{"start":3065.663,"end":3088.603,"text":"因為這個玩具槍所可能產生這個模擬的效果其實跟真槍還是很真實只不過是沒有殺傷力的所以他們這個真槍跟模擬槍玩具槍的區別是非常的小而且我們臺灣的玩具槍業者製造的技術可能是全世界最好的"},{"start":3089.324,"end":3091.906,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":3108.372,"end":3124.325,"text":"這都是因為我們科技、產業各種越來越進步,但是民間合法的生存遊戲、射擊教育、玩具槍與二產業的發展,這也是在憲法保障的工作權跟財產權。"},{"start":3125.726,"end":3136.074,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":3143.783,"end":3158.263,"text":"我們並沒有全面禁止模擬槍,而是如你剛剛所說的,我們在最近的一個治安暴力的犯罪案件上面看起來有非常明確的一個數字。我們查獲的"},{"start":3159.344,"end":3161.207,"text":"非制式槍支高達93.65%,非制式槍支高達98.57%。"},{"start":3174.545,"end":3176.406,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":3190.733,"end":3216.977,"text":"二是合法業者的部分。我想這次我們也希望能夠有明確的一些規定。那你特別提到的模擬槍,我們並沒有禁止模擬槍,而是針對包括它的一個材質的部分,還有它的硬度的部分來進行相關的規範。那它一方面可以擬真,但二方面它又不至於這個被改造之後然後具有殺傷力。"},{"start":3217.777,"end":3245.74,"text":"對,因為剛剛部長所提到的是不管是93%或97%、98%這種因為台灣本來就是我們改造槍支可能技術上在全世界也是名列前茅的啦但是我們警政署到底在你們在偵查這些槍擊案件之中有沒有針對哪些槍是被是用這個"},{"start":3247.361,"end":3253.28,"text":"模擬槍或非常敏真的模擬槍然後拿去改造成真槍,有沒有這方面的數據?"},{"start":3256.681,"end":3272.773,"text":"現在幾乎查獲到的非制式槍支,第一個就是模擬槍所改製而成的,第二個是由模擬槍的零組件套裝起來而成的一個非制式槍支,幾乎現在都是這樣子查獲的。那都有具有殺傷力嗎?當然,我們的艦艇具有殺傷力才會移送。"},{"start":3278.615,"end":3294.105,"text":"我們做了這樣的管制之後,部長跟署長,你們覺得就可以完全禁絕黑槍嗎?因為事實上,現在我們知道黑槍走私進口的管道仍然存在,還是很多的,有沒有辦法?"},{"start":3295.126,"end":3298.41,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":3312.449,"end":3321.736,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":3333.764,"end":3339.732,"text":"這也是因為剛剛本席也有提到,我們有去考察的時候才發現說,其實我們國內在玩具槍、模擬槍上面製造的技術是大概是全世界是獨步全球的。"},{"start":3348.524,"end":3357.111,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":3365.478,"end":3374.642,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":3394.11,"end":3421.918,"text":"本席還是要問一下一個問題就是我們大法官在110年5月7號就做出803號解釋就說兩年內應該要針對槍炮彈藥、刀械許可及管理辦法之中跟原住民自製獵槍相關的部分要進行檢討修法為什麼到現在都還沒有提出來呢?"},{"start":3425.077,"end":3454.069,"text":"跟委員報告那個因為有一些那個團體就是狩獵團體有部分的意見但是我們也開了很多次會議現在爭議點是在這個進口的這些類槍的話價錢比較高那我們也協調國安部針對這個業者部分能降低他的一個零件零件的一個價格還有整支槍支的價格爭議大概在這裡而已"},{"start":3454.397,"end":3459.879,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":3483.649,"end":3485.751,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":3499.125,"end":3517.857,"text":"我個人是認為都已經延宕了半年以上了,我們應該要緊述,這是事關我們原住民的這個傳統文化的維護,跟他們的基本的這個權益,所以務必請警政署再盡快要把這個給修出來。好,謝謝。謝謝,我們感謝姚召偉,我們請羅召偉、美玲。"},{"start":3534.725,"end":3538.686,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":3564.778,"end":3589.855,"text":"警察不當盤查的事情。今年初,發生了一件台灣史上第一件,員警因為不當盤查,然後有兩個員警被分別處4個月到6個月的徒刑。當這個事情的背景是在2021年的時候,有一位音樂老師在路上行走,要到他的音樂教室的時候,"},{"start":3590.615,"end":3592.836,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":3610.625,"end":3615.268,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":3628.815,"end":3633.376,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":3646.4,"end":3649.203,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":3662.876,"end":3668.919,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":3687.108,"end":3687.868,"text":"以這個個案來講,我認為我們嚴謹在執行的時候,異業的比例原則,"},{"start":3712.319,"end":3712.919,"text":"二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、"},{"start":3731.051,"end":3743.251,"text":"要求他們在長年訓練的時候務必把這個案例列為教材而且警執法以及相關的執法的一個SOP一定要列為長訓的一個課程來改善這個執法的一個情形。"},{"start":3744.88,"end":3773.618,"text":"我想請教一下,因為我有看了一下你們這個所謂的SOP其中有一個就是說警察職權行使法裏面有提到第29條警察因本法行使職權之方法因遵守之程序或其他侵害利益之情勢得以警察行使職權時當場陳述理由表示意義那表示就是說其實這個民眾是可以表示意義的對不對"},{"start":3774.318,"end":3776.359,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":3790.686,"end":3800.894,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":3813.803,"end":3824.75,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":3840.52,"end":3841.74,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十。"},{"start":3863.427,"end":3865.673,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":3871.621,"end":3894.732,"text":"所以在做盤查的時候其實都不使用警職法一開頭呢其實就是用盜交法來做切入你怎麼看這件事情如果是當然在警察在路上執法他各種法律都要兼顧如果違反盜交條例當然用盜交條例優先來做一個認定跟告發"},{"start":3895.692,"end":3903.44,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":3917.295,"end":3917.515,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具"},{"start":3936.326,"end":3937.707,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":3956.838,"end":3974.585,"text":"可是好像我們的民眾也不太了解有這個狀況,如果你轉到這個僅職法去的話,你就會進入到第六條第一項第一款,就是合理懷疑的這個判斷,所以這個法在這當下馬上就得要轉換了是不是?"},{"start":3976.834,"end":3983.477,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":3996.562,"end":4005.127,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":4023.459,"end":4046.073,"text":"你還必須取得這個民眾的這個同意,對不對?是不是這樣子?如果是有合理的法儀的話,當然就可以來用警職法來執行。當然如果是只有表徵,只有那個前科塑形的話,你這樣不能把它當成是一個有一個犯罪的一個表徵,當然不能用警職法。可是很多警察還是會這麼做耶。"},{"start":4047.054,"end":4049.996,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":4077.994,"end":4084.236,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":4109.895,"end":4113.617,"text":"部長早安,我先請教一下,其實你上禮拜有來宜蘭,來拜拜,那天實在是有點可惜,就是說我們身為內政委員會的委員,"},{"start":4125.345,"end":4128.388,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":4150.367,"end":4153.628,"text":"審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":4173.855,"end":4177.678,"text":"過去警察通常透過肉眼辨識的方式,經過該路段車輛的車牌,導入車牌的辨識系統,大部分的主要幹道上都是有架設。"},{"start":4192.188,"end":4206.559,"text":"現在新型的錄影監視器系統有車牌辨識、智慧影像分析的系統。我們的警察同仁要透過監視器辦行案的時候,只要在公務電腦上面輸入車牌號碼,就可以查到歷史軌跡。"},{"start":4215.225,"end":4219.991,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":4236.479,"end":4257.475,"text":"他的這個車牌辨識系統全國平均監視比例大概是怎麼樣?所以委員那個因為監視器的一個設置必須跟他的那個目的必須相符那並不是所有的監錄的這些系統都有車牌辨識的這樣子的一個功能那那個比例的部分我請那個署長來做說明"},{"start":4258.376,"end":4261.659,"text":"監事錄影系統相當重要,因為要取得相關的人證、物證。今天統計大概有兩成多是透過監事錄影系統去追查而破案件的。"},{"start":4276.234,"end":4288.788,"text":"兩成。好,謝謝部長跟署長。所以為什麼問這個車牌的這個辨識系統?是因為我這個會期在預算案的時候我也特別有關心到就是從審計部連續兩年的這個總決算審核報告裡面都有提到"},{"start":4295.255,"end":4302.199,"text":"這個海巡署的這個增防分署為了加強執行這個海域的這個棄毒追棄毒品的這個源頭已經有完成這個港區跟聯外道路車牌的這個辨識系統的建置但跟這個部分機關的這個借機協調作業好像沒有"},{"start":4313.584,"end":4319.61,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":4337.327,"end":4362.796,"text":"但是海巡署的同仁也有提到今年他們都有去拜會這個警政署十月份的時候也有去函希望可以申請這個相關的一個借接的一個系統希望可以讓這個車牌辨識資料更完整所以想請問這個我們海委會的一個副主委就是說針防分署跟這個警政署之間的借接的申請不知道目前後續的進度怎麼樣"},{"start":4365.493,"end":4392.267,"text":"各位委員報告目前我們跟這個警政署還有刑事警察局都已經開過會也接洽過了雖然我們目前還沒有直接洽接但是我們只要遇到有任何需要調查的案件那刑事警察局或者是警政署他都能夠在第一時間提供我們相對應的資料所以對我們偵辦案件目前而言並沒有太大的問題那後續我們將會"},{"start":4394.108,"end":4404.771,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":4420.655,"end":4449.315,"text":"彼此都有討論到這些細節的地方,跟您做補充說明。所以看起來是按照個案來做相關的借接,也不是借接就是說提供相關的資料。我跟委員報告,除了個案的一個相互的一個調取建制論系統應用以外,那現在也都商談到那個系統的一個借接,已經在談這個系統借接了,那這個都有在進行。因為兩個建制的那個系統是不一致的,如何要來借接,現在在談這個細節。"},{"start":4450.919,"end":4452.902,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":4469.332,"end":4478.922,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":4489.954,"end":4499.183,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":4513.195,"end":4536.869,"text":"對於槍砲彈藥的審慎的認定爭議的諮詢小組,希望可以有機會也可以納入他們作為相關的專家跟代表,比如說像原住民團體玩具槍或生存遊戲的這些業者。所以我今天想特別問一下署長,就是說你對於他們這樣的一個希望跟訴求,我不知道你這邊的態度是怎麼樣?"},{"start":4538.252,"end":4564.471,"text":"跟委員報告純如我們警戒使用條例的修法那個調查小組的時候也就把專家學者還有我們的基層代表還有民間代表都已經把它納入那我們也在槍炮條例的修法裡面爭議的知行小組的部分也會組成為那個這個小組那有相關的代表會有一定比例的代表來加入到這個小組"},{"start":4565.566,"end":4571.61,"text":"所以會考慮把這些人也納入專家的代表裡面?是,沒錯。OK,好,謝謝署長。好,謝謝,謝謝。好,謝謝存網會委員。接下來請網美會委員。有請林部長。"},{"start":4599.353,"end":4604.977,"text":"今天因為我們要探討槍砲彈藥及關節的條例,本身是當局以來第一項就是我們的材料、"},{"start":4621.663,"end":4621.723,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":4630.165,"end":4633.588,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":4659.909,"end":4662.331,"text":"槍炮彈藥的諮詢小組。第三項就是要如何提供規劃製造的行則。第五項就是說,在公用場所開廠,"},{"start":4676.8,"end":4679.321,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十八條條文修正草案案。二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十八條條文修正草案案。二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":4700.288,"end":4703.999,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":4708.456,"end":4711.398,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":4735.899,"end":4749.304,"text":"有這個要犯罪意圖的這個人,你看他是在鑽法律的漏洞。比如說他這個公開開請,他沒有對人開請。啊,第二,譬如說他開請後馬上去主秀。"},{"start":4754.466,"end":4756.849,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":4775.33,"end":4778.432,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":4793.613,"end":4805.661,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、"},{"start":4816.949,"end":4822.234,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":4839.276,"end":4842.397,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":4868.172,"end":4870.774,"text":"警察同仁都很盡力,不過這個好還要更好,我們還要繼續加強。"},{"start":4895.145,"end":4910.409,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":4921.132,"end":4923.799,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":4928.899,"end":4929.959,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":4952.108,"end":4952.388,"text":"二、三、四、"},{"start":4963.779,"end":4974.541,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":4987.944,"end":4991.487,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":5016.386,"end":5022.632,"text":"審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":5034.744,"end":5035.605,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、"},{"start":5052.668,"end":5062.135,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十一、九、十一、九、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一"},{"start":5082.984,"end":5098.832,"text":"部長,你覺得這個因為這個在公用場所這樣,是造成在案的問題,大家也很害怕,連任委都沒有政府,跟你任委分析,在這裡公用場所大廠的,要加強選擇裡面,保證你有什麼看法來?"},{"start":5107.395,"end":5113.357,"text":"非常感謝委員,我們的意見也是這樣,這個手法我們也有把它納入來,我們現在來修到七年以上,七年以上。跟您修到七年,我們現在是覺得可以修到十年,跟這因為不是看地面的、看柴的、看花花的而已,"},{"start":5132.043,"end":5140.607,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":5169.893,"end":5173.635,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長。有請林部長。委員好。部長好。這個槍砲彈藥刀戒管制條例在109年的時候修正公佈。當時在內政委員會在審查的時候,行政院版,審查行政院版的時候,"},{"start":5199.226,"end":5228.338,"text":"本席就強烈的抗議強烈的要求這個相關的條文相關的條文一再的加嚴加嚴加嚴我沒有意見但是因為我們原住民的獵槍啊原住民的獵槍相關的這些安全性都沒有被考量所以我們的獵人"},{"start":5230.824,"end":5257.541,"text":"因為都沒有辦法符合這個列槍的管理辦法的一個規格所以我們的常常就會觸犯到槍炮、彈藥、盜竊管制條例二十條以外的條文所以當時內政委員會當時要謝謝內政委員會同意也要把原住民的槍炮、彈藥、盜竊管制條例二十條也要列入"},{"start":5259.11,"end":5260.131,"text":"最主要是增加自製列槍的彈藥,包括組成零件,"},{"start":5286.971,"end":5301.68,"text":"主要組成零件或彈藥,其主要組成零件或彈藥,其主要組成零件或彈藥,其主要組成零件或彈藥,其主要組成零件或彈藥,其主要組成零件或彈藥,其主要組成零件或彈藥,其主要組成零件或彈藥,其主要組成零件或彈藥,其主要組成零件或彈藥,其主要組成零件或彈藥,其主要組成零件或彈藥,其主要組成零件或彈藥,其主要組成零件或彈藥,其主要組成零件或彈藥,其主要組成零件或彈藥,其"},{"start":5315.058,"end":5337.364,"text":"109年6月10日公布施行其他的條文自公布日施行。我們看這個。109年5月22日修正之條文自公布日施行。唯獨原住民的條款第二十條第三項之施行日期由行政院定之。"},{"start":5340.371,"end":5360.508,"text":"這個條文就是不公平的條文,不正義的條文,原住民的就要另訂,我們也犧牲了,好,好,那你另訂啊,那你趕快訂吧。結果呢,到現在還沒有訂出來喔,到現在還沒有訂出來。按照中央行政計畫法制作業應注意事項,這個法規命令啊,"},{"start":5364.229,"end":5392.695,"text":"在法律公佈施行後6個月內要完成發布,109年到現在,現在已經3年多了,3年7個多月了,所以違反行政院自己定的一個標準,頂多一年,延後發布期限不得6個月,就是一年,頂多一年,所以到現在都還沒有發布,"},{"start":5394.138,"end":5395.038,"text":"司法院大法官會議宪判制第803日"},{"start":5411.86,"end":5440.528,"text":"這裡明定有關機關應自持自本解釋公佈之日期兩年內,依本解釋意旨儘速檢討修正,就商開規範不足之部分,定定符合憲法保障原住民得安全從事合法狩獵活動之自製獵槍,這定義性規範。這個最主要就是我們要有安全的自製獵槍。"},{"start":5443.345,"end":5464.972,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":5473.291,"end":5495.443,"text":"部長,什麼時候可以發布?管理辦法。好,非常謝謝委員。我想這個事情我們部裡面還有包括警政署都非常的重視。所以目前草案的部分已經在1月19號完成預告。那並且在今年的5月開始有辦了八場的一個分區的座談會。"},{"start":5497.085,"end":5511.743,"text":"在今年的6月份、7月份和10月份,我們跟國防部和人民會有開了三次會議,基本上大部分都已經有共識了。目前還有需要凝聚共識的兩點,"},{"start":5512.844,"end":5540.363,"text":"第一點是自私的獵槍因為價格很高,那我們原住民買不起。所以要讓原住民能夠擁有這個自私的這種安全的這種槍支,必須在這個金額上面可能要再做進一步的一個比如說是補貼補助或者其他方式的一個處理,這部分還帶跟原民會來做這個協商跟討論。第二個是安全的問題,"},{"start":5541.084,"end":5547.885,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":5569.707,"end":5598.132,"text":"我們看這個條文的最後一句話由中央主管機關就是指內政部會同中央原住民族主管機關及國防部定當初為什麼會把國防部列計系列討論的時候內政委員會討論的時候為什麼會把國防部加上去就是希望國防部他們本來就有這個本來就有這些工廠啊"},{"start":5600.131,"end":5623.226,"text":"我們也不是要那麼多先進的,對不對?本來國防部就有這個工廠,所以他們不願意,不願意為原住民不依法,不依法行政。這是第一個。第二個,部長你剛剛提到了,部長,部長,這個方向錯誤,很貴,當然從國外來當然很貴啊。台灣的,台灣的玩技槍啊,"},{"start":5630.54,"end":5647.845,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":5659.982,"end":5663.484,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":5677.554,"end":5703.664,"text":"要請警政署、內政部,尤其是內政部,他們要去協調國防部困難,所以要部長你要去協調,請次長去協調國防部,然後不要擔心我們台灣很多,為什麼一定要進口,進口當然就很貴,所以這個部分要請內政部要加油,等一下我們審查條文的時候我們可以再好好討論。"},{"start":5704.935,"end":5707.659,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":5713.766,"end":5728.318,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":5737.105,"end":5749.589,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":5758.172,"end":5771.045,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":5799.983,"end":5801.996,"text":"藉主席請內政部林部長"},{"start":5812.122,"end":5829.653,"text":"這個我們上次在這個徐國勇部長任內的時候本席爭取了一個亮點計畫就是金門的亮點計畫十一億那當初的這個內容是做金門環島自行車道路網系統還有泰晤山的臨間步道系統還有一個參與參與型的戰爭體驗計畫這個部分在112年到115年間"},{"start":5838.078,"end":5860.751,"text":"那我們看到後來這個原來建制金門環島自行車道路系統的計畫,這個是不是有變更,要轉為改善六一道路還有金湖鎮的中正公園大小太湖的這個周邊道路?那個委員所提的這個是否有變更,我並不清楚這一個訊息。你不瞭解齁?好,我下一頁,你看一下。"},{"start":5862.168,"end":5865.15,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":5883.866,"end":5891.192,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":5912.336,"end":5937.117,"text":"目前縣政府他們是在做這個規劃跟設計他們預計是在明年一一三年的時候才要向國土署來做提報所以已經變更了那我的看法是說當然就是說嗯我也覺得進行這個計畫是很重要但是因為這是我們地方政府提出來我當然也是支持就是說既然現任縣長有他的這個想法那這個亮點計畫雖然是那時候我們在"},{"start":5938.138,"end":5956.769,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、"},{"start":5960.691,"end":5971.838,"text":"吳秋是屬於我們金門縣的一個鄉。吳秋是屬於我們金門縣的一個鄉。吳秋是屬於我們金門縣的一個鄉。吳秋是屬於我們金門縣的一個鄉。吳秋是屬於我們金門縣的一個鄉。吳秋是屬於我們金門縣的一個鄉。吳秋是屬於我們金門縣的一個鄉。吳秋是屬於我們金門縣的一個鄉。吳秋是屬於我們金門縣的一個鄉。吳秋是屬於我們金門縣的一個鄉。吳秋是屬於我們金門縣的一個鄉。吳秋是屬於我們金門縣的一個鄉。吳秋是屬於我們金門縣的一個鄉。吳秋"},{"start":5978.863,"end":5981.426,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":6000.103,"end":6002.885,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":6021.818,"end":6023.961,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":6034.724,"end":6039.707,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":6055.476,"end":6078.818,"text":"這個有沒有問題?委員這個是不是容我們回去研究一下?是,你們整個研究一下,這個島上之所以第一個交通不放,交通部門現在已經要做碼頭,這個因為內政部沒有在內,我等一下問,請海巡署上來。對,這是海巡署,因為上來海巡署也有別的相關,但是,名稱基本需求應該是屬於內政部,所以這個回去也幫我們關系一下。我們研究一下。不應該他因為他偏遠,他就減少他這樣的名稱需求。"},{"start":6081.299,"end":6107.167,"text":"吳丘基本上都是軍事管制的區域,一般的民眾很少,所以其實我也蠻想去看一下島上的狀況。不然如果選舉過後,我們找個時間,國安還有時間嗎?1月13選舉,2月1號中間,不然就找個時間。真的,當作第一位踏上吳丘島的內政部長,幫我們真的了解當地的需求,真的真的,好嗎?是,如果有機會的話。好好,謝謝部長。"},{"start":6115.323,"end":6133.618,"text":"吳修整建碼頭在108年的4月26日我們金門有開一個首長聯席會報那時候張景生政委有裁示國安部會會長金門縣海海巡署統一需求後面沒有具體進度我之前有在緊盯國安部海軍事務部告訴我他完成了可行性的評估報告規劃編列11億6500多萬其中有"},{"start":6140.697,"end":6163.212,"text":"總共20億,國防部編列11億,海巡署要編列6億,金門縣要編列1億6千多萬,因為剛我提過那個碼頭因為沒有碼頭,那個署長應該就去過了吧?您去過了嗎?你看那個碼頭沒有辦法靠船嘛,所以交通極為不便,15天一班船,返鄉都沒有辦法停留超過一個小時,大概兩個小時,您知道吧?"},{"start":6163.732,"end":6167.193,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十一、九、十一、九、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一"},{"start":6189.762,"end":6196.469,"text":"目前這個案子政策決定後,我們現在預劃就是從114年,對,開114年,因為我們所分攤的部分就像委員剛剛的資料所取的,因為張景深政委已經開過協調,我們108年就開了,所以你們從114年開始編啊?"},{"start":6211.224,"end":6214.905,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":6238.066,"end":6240.707,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十。"},{"start":6265.079,"end":6284.385,"text":"我們中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第二條第一項規定中華民國的專屬經濟海域為臨接臨海外側至距離臨海基線兩百里間的一個海域但是我們之前的我們的海洋研究船新海岩一號"},{"start":6286.306,"end":6308.199,"text":"那經過跨部會的審議通過7月在海巡署吉安艦的介護下在沖繩的東北部我們的專屬經濟海域進行研究卻被日本的海上保安廳以從事未經同意的調查活動理由驅逐請問這樣子也算是台日友好嗎政府有沒有抗議呢"},{"start":6310.243,"end":6332.218,"text":"我想那個地方這個是我們主張的一個領域但是它也是一個台日重疊的一個海域所以我們當然會這個依法維護我們的一個權益那所以是尊重日方來驅逐嗎?是這個意思嗎?我們當然也會表述我們的一個主張那當然在這部分來"},{"start":6334.465,"end":6339.435,"text":"部長請教啊那在南沙跟東沙會不會發生類似的問題啊?"},{"start":6341.062,"end":6368.648,"text":"我想我們的法律規定其實都很清楚只要是我國所屬的一個領海還有這個經濟的一個海域的話我們都相關國軍還有包括海巡署都是以相關的一個規定來做處置當然這個部分當然要請內政部當然包含海委會海巡這邊來研究怎麼樣來確保我們的漁民跟科研船在這邊的合法權益這一個部分內政部可以努力去做嗎"},{"start":6371.125,"end":6379.383,"text":"我們不是海研單位,也不是海巡署,不過就法的部分,我想我們會做這樣的一個主張。"},{"start":6386.232,"end":6404.061,"text":"我們相關的這次修法針對槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例將不法模擬槍提升到刑法的規範將子彈零件列入行政法徵定公共場所開槍罪等本席是肯定這樣子的一個修法方向是正確"},{"start":6405.282,"end":6419.447,"text":"但是這個條例第十八條第四項後段,拒絕公訴或公訴不實者得加重其刑至三分之一,並沒有刪除。其實這個部分是有一些爭議的。部長你知道哪裡有爭議嗎?"},{"start":6426.198,"end":6449.679,"text":"據本席的了解沒有法官會把這個條文予以適用過本席認為這個條文違反了刑法不自證己罪的原則非常明顯所以有違憲的疑慮當然也中關我們所有的法律並沒有這樣子一個規定所以這個條文是不是要去思考怎麼樣來修正"},{"start":6450.279,"end":6471.687,"text":"目前業者進口低動能的槍枝銷售,內政部檢驗署是依據低動能槍枝輸入審查要點來予以準駁。但是該要點依據是貿易法第十一條第一項的但書,基於因為國際的條約或基於國防治安得予限制。但是這個法律的主管機關是經濟部。"},{"start":6474.128,"end":6494.366,"text":"所以這個相關的要點公佈跟準駁的權限都不是警政署那警政署卻自己把它訂定這個規範然後來予以批准或者駁回不想覺得這樣可以嗎?主管機關是經濟部喔但是卻由警政署來批准這不是很怪嗎?"},{"start":6495.847,"end":6523.699,"text":"跟委員報告兩個部分,第一個是委員剛剛提到的那個前一題,我想如果立法院審議的話,並且經相關學者專家大家有共識有修正的一個必要的話,我們本部會予以尊重。好,那這個部分大家也請內政部委帶回去研究一下,好不好?那當然另外一個部分就是我剛剛講到的,這一個部分就是所謂低動能槍支的銷售,那現在警政署來予以準博。"},{"start":6524.559,"end":6552.041,"text":"這部分我請水長來做說明。當然我們低動能槍枝的一個審查是根據貿易法第11條的規定來辦理。我們實施到從去年的9月份開始實施到現在大概都很順利。業者部分當然也能遵守這個審核的一個規定來辦理。"},{"start":6553.703,"end":6566.56,"text":"雖然主責是國貿局、經濟部的國貿署來辦理的,但是因為基於治安為由,這個邊境的一個審查還由我們警政署來辦理,是這樣在運作。"},{"start":6571.149,"end":6594.944,"text":"我們這次草案甄列第五條之三的一個條款政府為審認槍炮條例的爭議臨聘相關的組織、機構、專家、學者來成立的爭議小組但這個新增的條文是源自於修法管理模擬槍時候建立的模擬槍審議委員會的法制化"},{"start":6595.845,"end":6596.045,"text":"模擬槍審議委員會轉型為槍砲彈藥審議委員會,"},{"start":6608.316,"end":6634.067,"text":"這會不會在這個功能上其實是有所區別因為基本上模擬槍跟所謂的槍炮彈藥其實還是有差距的啦所以在這個部分當然也有業者反應就是說很多當然參加會議的專家的政府單位像經濟部或他們完全不了解槍炮的專業知識那所謂的專家學者當然有一些是我們警大的或相關單位的教授"},{"start":6634.827,"end":6657.379,"text":"所以在這一個部分是不是請部長跟這個也要帶回去去思考怎麼樣來做一個修正跟加強因為畢竟當然在這個槍枝的部分槍械彈藥的部分這個經濟部也沒有所謂的專業的功能所以如何來強化這個部分請內政部來思考可以嗎"},{"start":6659.87,"end":6680.908,"text":"跟我們報告我想這個會奠定一個辦法組成那個辦法那到時候組成辦法裡面組成的那個這個專家學者還有機關單位代表我們會審慎來組成這個建議說就是基本上假如要開類似相關的會議恐怕要把內容先提供給大家因為畢竟這個實在太專業"},{"start":6681.809,"end":6688.959,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":6701.634,"end":6722.468,"text":"二十條之三修正條文是由原本的警察機關得進入廠商處所進行來行政的檢查但應該會同中央目的主管事業機關也就是經濟部一起來做但這一次我們把它改成必要時會同事業主管機關"},{"start":6723.148,"end":6732.04,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":6739.562,"end":6759.177,"text":"玩具槍管理規則被在民國九十一年司法院釋憲五百七十號的釋憲文裡面宣告為違憲。它理由是,人民自由跟權利的限制依據憲法第二十三條規定,要法律定之。在這裡面授權的目的內容範圍要明確,使得據已發布命令。"},{"start":6762.579,"end":6783.751,"text":"將玩具槍納入所謂的限制輸入和平表裡面,算是政府繞過法律自行擴權的一小步。現在當然我們修法通過的話,把經濟部這些相關的單位量到一邊去,其實這個部分當然也供內政部、警政署來思考一下,恰不恰當。所以在這個部分,"},{"start":6784.791,"end":6811.366,"text":"這個本席今天提出來一些修法相關的建議或者想法,這個請內政部跟檢驗署好好商量,好不好?好,謝謝委員提醒,我想我們希望這個法案的一個修正能夠更加的一個這個完整跟圓滿,因為這個槍砲彈藥的這些管制的這些標的,它都不是一般的這些商品,"},{"start":6811.966,"end":6820.074,"text":"審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":6837.842,"end":6838.722,"text":"張宏祿委員張宏祿委員海巡署中副主委"},{"start":6867.774,"end":6896.732,"text":"委員長副主委其實我們今天就講到說這個抽砂船其實抽砂船每次一來那個數量都是蠻多的其實我們的艦艇有的比較小、噸位比較小有的也沒有辦法一次面對這麼多又要強行登船其實也有蠻多的危險在這種情況之下我不知道"},{"start":6897.852,"end":6919.866,"text":"所以我們抓到的違法的抽砂船其實比例跟它實際來的其實不高,對不對?跟委員報告,現在抽砂船因為我們通過這兩個法則,屠宰法跟專軍法之後,從110年到現在,這個整個抽砂船違法抽砂的情形,"},{"start":6920.626,"end":6948.884,"text":"大幅獲得改善。在110年以前,我們每年驅改的量大概有幾千燒。從111年以後,就剩百燒。像今年度,我們只有個位數字的燒數。那都是因為我們強力的執法,跟我們現在專精法跟屠宰法給我們的權力。我們法院判決,像目前我們有六燒沒收。"},{"start":6950.245,"end":6963.829,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡"},{"start":6969.831,"end":6996.999,"text":"犯罪所付出的代價能夠跟他所獲得的利益不相成比例。這個我們知道了今天我們修法就是要這樣其實我的意思就是說有時候我們的艦艇的噸位沒有像抽砂船那麼大其實也增加了很多這個地球的危險我們要抓這個違法抽砂船法律沒有規定一定要用海巡自己的船吧"},{"start":6999.932,"end":7003.255,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":7024.833,"end":7031.782,"text":"我想請這個林部長跟警政署長有請林部長跟黃署長"},{"start":7038.281,"end":7062.163,"text":"這一次我們槍炮彈藥這個我們要修啦。又一個我想說大家來討論一下就是這一次的我們本草案新增的第九條之一在公共場所或公眾的出入場所開槍這一次的我們就是說要再增加兩年的刑期"},{"start":7063.084,"end":7078.112,"text":"我對這個增加什麼這個我完全沒有意見我完全支持也不反對只是把這個放在槍砲彈藥管理條例裡面你認為是比較好呢還是我們去修刑法比較好這個這個署長你的看法"},{"start":7086.448,"end":7113.984,"text":"跟委員報告,我想槍炮條例是在規範這個槍炮的一個持有製造販賣使用,那還有就是在使用這一塊,那使用這一塊當然它對空來這個無辜的開槍沒有造成這個刑罰上的一個殺人,殺人的不確定故意的殺人或者其他毀損案件,所以我們把它列在這個條文裡面,我是這樣子一個見解。"},{"start":7115.213,"end":7131.658,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":7134.584,"end":7159.554,"text":"他犯了是目前的法例來講還是槍炮條例他純粹持有槍械只有純粹持有自私槍械那對公共場合對空來開槍會造成民眾的不安啊以及恐慌啊所以要加重他的一個刑責除了持有槍械以外的刑責還要再刻意他的一個對大眾的一個恐慌的一個我知道我知道"},{"start":7160.354,"end":7168.081,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":7185.679,"end":7213.52,"text":"我覺得我對這一個的話我覺得是等一下可以大家來討論一下因為我覺得啦都已經在公共場所了都已經對空民槍了這樣子的情況之下我們用槍砲彈要管理條例啊你加重他的刑責那我個人會認為你在刑法上面還是你兩個都修我覺得這個等一下我們可以考量一下吧書長你那個麥克風好像沒有開啊"},{"start":7215.488,"end":7238.684,"text":"我想,呃,其實兩邊都可以修啦,但是我們是槍炮條例嘛,所以我們是建議在這個槍炮條例先修,可以啦。對,我今天就是要來齁,因為我們在修法,我們在這個什麼,我們在法律用哪個法條,我覺得這個可能大家要斟酌一下啦。我覺得這個可能大家要斟酌一下啦。 不過我跟委員報告一下,因為"},{"start":7239.745,"end":7262.492,"text":"這一條其實有立即的急迫性的一個需要因為我們看到很多的犯罪分子他是利用這個法律上的一個漏洞那我們這一次因為要修這個槍砲彈藥這個管制條例所以我們在這個地方我們同步把它做修法這樣子修法通過之後我們可以去立即來做試用"},{"start":7263.462,"end":7266.364,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":7282.632,"end":7307.996,"text":"對空,不管你在哪,你公共場所,你對空民槍,沒有犯刑法,啊沒有,你剛剛署長講的意思,我覺得我聽了也覺得很奇怪啊。呃,如果認真追究,應該有對呃,公共危害公共安全的這一條罪啦齁,但是這個比較輕罪,會被槍砲的,呃,持有槍砲來吸收,所以還是用槍砲條例來,來判罪啦,所以,沒辦法提升他的一個刑度啦。"},{"start":7309.055,"end":7328.425,"text":"我知道啦,但我們沒關係等一下再討論,我覺得好,那我如果原住民在我的豐年祭裡面,我對空開好幾槍,那怎麼辦?這個是處罪,這個沒有問題,因為他這個是因為他的文化跟這個民俗祭典的關係。我不是說他在慶典開的,他可能跟人家有衝突喔。"},{"start":7330.209,"end":7330.89,"text":"張宏祿委員,接下來邀請吳麗華委員發言。"},{"start":7382.771,"end":7383.092,"text":"有請次長及署長,"},{"start":7396.439,"end":7420.608,"text":"司長好、署長好。辦公室這邊有跟警政署希望能夠提供一個近幾年持槍的案件數。但是我拿到的是槍擊案的案件數。我不曉得說是不是對於持槍沒有去做統計。"},{"start":7423.63,"end":7438.418,"text":"跟委員報告我們在提供可能當時在我們的認知上有錯誤這個我們在提供那個持有槍其實我是希望瞭解還有獵槍的數據就是持槍案裡面獵槍的數據因為我想這個部分對我們來講其實是問證也是很需要的一個基礎資料那就麻煩再提供"},{"start":7450.644,"end":7467.869,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":7476.909,"end":7503.888,"text":"理由就是看到現在社會改造槍支的方案比例越來越高對嗎那也發現槍彈這些零組件沒有完全的納管那另外更重要的是大家都在談的就是現在原本我們這個是管制條例管制槍支的使用但是呢現在增加了一個就是開槍的行為"},{"start":7505.309,"end":7513.291,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":7531.826,"end":7534.428,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":7552.297,"end":7565.84,"text":"槍枝忘記登記要去申請這個動作我們一般來講都不太賢手經常忘記不曉得說新增了這個第九條之一第二項之後會不會被處罰會不會用刑法來處罰感謝委員的指教這一部分已經都排除了啦已經排除在忘記申請也會排除"},{"start":7583.489,"end":7602.199,"text":"這部份因為刑法的部份已經排除,那行政法的部份還是有。那怎麼辦?我想這部份我們會先導啦,我們會再去輔導他。僅僅用宣導?僅僅用宣導?因為現在有一些的確像委員講的一樣,"},{"start":7603.28,"end":7621.583,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":7632.745,"end":7648.75,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":7662.93,"end":7680.499,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":7690.925,"end":7706.812,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":7719.639,"end":7746.797,"text":"那至於說這個司法怎麼去判你還是依循這個大法官會議解釋跟這個憲法相關規定嗎來蘇長請跟委員報告那有關於原住民的持有制式類槍或者是原民的一個基本法我們都會把我們的警察的那個長年教育訓練我每三個月都一個講習我會納入在這個講習的課程裡面讓我們員警多了解到原民的"},{"start":7747.337,"end":7759.323,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":7775.37,"end":7782.993,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":7796.438,"end":7821.647,"text":"針對新增的第九條之一或者是修正的第四條新增的第五條之三新增的第十三條之一新增的第二十條之二這是我們很多原民團體有意見的部分可能會衝擊到我們的部分我希望這個部分我只要先講一個新增第五條之三你們提到說"},{"start":7823.157,"end":7850.932,"text":"要組成一個槍砲彈藥審認的爭議諮詢小組。但是,我們說有沒有邀集原民團體及代表啊?你們說,針對涉及原住民自製獵槍等相關爭議案件,會邀請原民會及相關專家、學者列席諮詢啊?欸,列席捏。我是說,這個都已經是相關爭議案件了捏。我們應該要出席吧?要有表決權吧?為什麼只是列席諮詢呢?"},{"start":7852.83,"end":7875.687,"text":"所以這個回覆我們有意見。來,署長,請。我跟委員報告,我們在未來定定那個稅辦法的時候,會把它列得相當清楚,包括顏名的代表,我們都把它列進來。我們可以出席嗎?對,當然可以出席。那謝謝,不要說列席諮詢。好,那所以這個地方,我是希望說,我們已經等的列強專法,"},{"start":7877.301,"end":7891.497,"text":"很感謝警政署順應民意辦了九場全國分區座談,已經重新收整意見了。那我只是希望說,這個由內政部、會協、人民會、國防部發布的部分,"},{"start":7893.171,"end":7918.929,"text":"我希望訂一個清楚的公告實施的期程好不好要不然這個新舊法又新增這個空窗漏洞很大搞不好在這個部分很多的族人又會陰暗入獄好不好好 謝謝委員這一部分我們在後面的這個法治程序現在就會現在答案大概大家都有共識對那後面要走的是法治程序確定都有共識了有有有不會又蹦出來齁"},{"start":7920.33,"end":7925.133,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":7950.883,"end":7958.165,"text":"吳立華委員、林文瑞委員交書面。接下來,我們邀請張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張瑞雄委員發言。張"},{"start":7974.611,"end":7982.175,"text":"林佑川部長請下,現在是吳政次。林佑川部長請下,現在是吳政次。"},{"start":7997.878,"end":8000.481,"text":"昨天我看到北韓金正恩在考慮"},{"start":8008.42,"end":8010.821,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":8032.587,"end":8044.034,"text":"全世界主要的已開發國家幾乎都會碰到這樣的一個問題,阻止出生率的一個下降,一個北韓極權統治的冷笑,也就是說金正恩這樣的一個眼淚,你們認為會不會有效?"},{"start":8056.521,"end":8064.519,"text":"我想掃紙化或者老人化我想這是全球的問題啦那如果靠這樣子就可以"},{"start":8066.226,"end":8073.068,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":8094.494,"end":8099.257,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":8115.506,"end":8116.787,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":8126.837,"end":8131.74,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":8149.77,"end":8153.112,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":8171.221,"end":8174.182,"text":"安倍晉三認為政府要減壓對年輕人所做的各部會所做的社會福利,"},{"start":8185.404,"end":8190.148,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":8212.526,"end":8215.527,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":8241.112,"end":8245.853,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":8270.017,"end":8274.06,"text":"有沒有可能啊 我們內政部去擴大去舉辦 撮合 月效啦 我覺得你們繼續做啦阿不 房署長你也很清楚啊 很多詐騙的啊 到最後很多婚姻詐騙的啊我那房子也有很多人去用騙子的啊那公公只想要娶老婆 都要去用拐子的阿我那馬小姐 人就沒那麼漂亮 相片都放得那麼漂亮 都要去用拐子的"},{"start":8295.319,"end":8296.861,"text":"我看你們辦的那個成效到去年,你辦這70批次裡面,錄取參加的6,006人次,計就率有711。"},{"start":8310.461,"end":8322.971,"text":"佩對成功當然不一定會生小孩啦但是那個機率又增加很多了又增加很多了所以我倒認為說各個部會裡面我看來大家都是很認真在提出這些對策但是因為是這種原因減壓方向是對的但是那個是國家對他的投資那個不是一個社會的福利我反而認為內政部這個地方是不是在"},{"start":8338.359,"end":8339.28,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":8355.117,"end":8358.078,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":8383.827,"end":8403.444,"text":"幾坡的頭也在想對策,內政部這個地方,次長。謝謝委員的這個指教,我想我們認同委員的看法。姑且不論說這個年輕人是未來國家的主人翁,我們也希望經過這樣的一個平台能夠發揮這個作用。"},{"start":8405.708,"end":8410.632,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":8422.302,"end":8438.934,"text":"如果現在的辦理的這個場次,當然以現在的人力,我們未來會去想辦法再擴大。華豐的辦理比較好,人們比較有信心。不然你們去請教那個黃署長他們那個地方,就是我們有很多網路上有很多詐騙,甚至叫說犯罪的意思,什麼這個網路戀愛教學課程,有的沒的,這聽起來都很奇怪,你怎麼知道。那我另外要請教的就是說,我們黃署長就是說,"},{"start":8448.32,"end":8461.164,"text":"就是說我們警察在處理車禍現場的時候那個處理的那個流程的一個機制那針對傷亡者的部分我想這一次我剛好去看到上個禮拜五教育部舉辦2003年臺灣國際學生創意設計大賽裡面那年度大獎由韓國的那個衛山大學的學生拿下"},{"start":8468.467,"end":8485.28,"text":"他們設計這個急救車輛的引導照,可以供我們做參考。他用那個屏障結合吸附的一個磁盤,直接吸附在停在事故現場前後的一個警車或救護車上。他提供視覺上的一個屏障,同時防止那個路過的民眾去目擊重大創傷可能帶來的心理創傷,也可以維護傷者的一個尊嚴。本席到認為說這個值得我們去做一個"},{"start":8493.926,"end":8496.008,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":8521.627,"end":8522.087,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具"},{"start":8542.145,"end":8548.128,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、"},{"start":8560.874,"end":8566.259,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":8586.198,"end":8595.602,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":8620.094,"end":8630.144,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":8637.772,"end":8656.363,"text":"對原住民、漁民自製獵槍、漁艙許可跟管理辦法草案還沒有一個定案之前,你們又提出了槍砲彈藥刀劫管制條例部分條文的修正草案。其實本席對於第五條之二、第五條之三是有意見的,尤其是第五條之二,"},{"start":8658.004,"end":8672.577,"text":"前向自治列腔寄用人以享有法定繼承權人之一人為限,但未成年人或無行為能力者不得申請繼續持有。你知道原住民的文化跟未成年是沒有關聯的嗎?"},{"start":8674.398,"end":8695.258,"text":"所以這一條我今天不跟你討論,但是主條的時候我會跟你說。然後第五條,第三呢,你們如果是槍炮代價條例的審議爭議的時候,你們要聆聘這些專家學者,然後是由中央主管機關定制。想請問一下這些人是誰?我想專家學者大概針對槍炮的有專業的這些,"},{"start":8697.921,"end":8699.081,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":8727.572,"end":8755.795,"text":"我要請教國防部,我不曉得國防部在109年的5月15號在這個內政委員會裡面在協商槍炮彈藥道歉管制條例的時候,你們在不在?您在嗎?我本人不在。請你大聲一點好不好?我本人不在。你本人不在,軍人要有軍人的樣子,好嗎?你不在我就提醒你一下,請我們的助理放一下照片。"},{"start":8757.477,"end":8785.095,"text":"109年5月15日槍炮彈藥刀戒管制條例的第20條第三項高精素美我、鄭天才委員還有其他原住民立委在現場拒以力爭。力爭什麼?我們希望槍炮彈藥刀戒管制條例的第20條第三項裡面納入國防部。因此國防部進來了。您看到條文了沒有?有的。"},{"start":8786.664,"end":8799.132,"text":"因為有了第20條第3項的規定,因此才會有了原住民自治漁槍、獵槍許可跟管理辦法草案。這個草案您看過了嗎?這草案我看過了,是。您看過了,您的責任是什麼?"},{"start":8805.994,"end":8832.556,"text":"我想應該主要是安全的問題。不是。我唸給您聽。第一條本辦法依《槍砲彈藥刀藉管制條例》以下簡稱本條例第20條第三項規定並定之。這是第一條開宗明義。第二條本辦法所定的事項由中央主管機關、中央援助民族主管機關以及國防部就其權責範圍主動"},{"start":8836.799,"end":8855.754,"text":"規劃推動、執行以及監督相關措施並且應該全力配合,確實保障援助民博安全從事合法狩獵活動,全責如下,第一,"},{"start":8856.494,"end":8859.538,"text":"中央主管機關負責管理政策、法規及方案的研究、規劃、訂定、執行及解釋,並且統籌輔導相關申請事宜。"},{"start":8875.376,"end":8883.104,"text":"國防部要負責援助您自製獵槍主要組成臨界的研製、選購、輔導、組合包括組裝,並且你要協助相關安全使用訓練事宜。"},{"start":8897.045,"end":8919.727,"text":"中央原民會負責原住民自製獵槍、安全使用訓練、規劃、訂定、計劃與執行,並且協助相關申請與管理事宜。請問一下原民會今天出席的代表,原住民在法規沒有產生之前,我們有沒有自製獵槍了?"},{"start":8922.973,"end":8936.477,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":8946.039,"end":8968.846,"text":"軍人所謂的這個國防部裡面的體系我們稱聯勤兵工來協助我們因此非常多這個暴然後以及傷到自己或生命的安全的作為對不對所以因此國防部請您來請您告訴我"},{"start":8970.529,"end":8974.533,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":8996.093,"end":9019.882,"text":"所以本席今天要求國防部也要求行政院因為我知道這個條例這個條例新增是依照111年的5月3號行政院有召開業務分工的會議合併這個辦法的業務的分工原則是行政院喔你們居然不管行政院告訴你必須要研發研製"},{"start":9022.023,"end":9029.426,"text":"一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法"},{"start":9046.832,"end":9052.735,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、"},{"start":9076.962,"end":9079.449,"text":"最了解目前應該是沒有了。所以嘛!"},{"start":9081.004,"end":9102.32,"text":"我們有沒有看到我們的政府在制定法令的時候根本沒有依照法令的精神來制定規範你們就用你們自己的想像根本也是找不到一個合法的土地然後大家還非常的辛苦辦理了搬搬場的地方的座談會本席也參加了裡面談一些小細節的問題大方向的問題都不去討論我覺得我們的政府是這樣子做事情的嗎?"},{"start":9109.045,"end":9120.249,"text":"我們政府是這樣子的來推卸責任然後來告訴原住民族什麼叫做獵人什麼叫做尊重文化嗎?什麼叫做轉型正義嗎?不可以這樣欺負原住民的所以在這裡本席要針對三個部會第一警政署第二國防部第三人民會請你們重新再討論這個管理辦法"},{"start":9136.095,"end":9156.271,"text":"依照111年5月3日行政院召開的業務分工會議和定了辦法的業務有三個全責,依請你們分別回去制定你們自己應該做什麼業務分工,不是只有唯一的條路就是從外面進口。"},{"start":9157.432,"end":9179.445,"text":"我發現如果從外面進口你們好像又要製造另外一條路讓有錢的可以拿到執照的這些人他又繼續有錢又要圖利某些人我覺得民進黨政府不可以再這樣子用人住民的獵人的安全來再罔顧人住民獵人的生命財產"},{"start":9181.309,"end":9197.181,"text":"以上我的質詢時間到了,我希望你們這三個單位在選舉之前到我的辦公室裡面來回答我今天的質詢,因為時間不夠,除非組長你要再回答,國防部你要回答,人民會你要回答,要回答嗎?"},{"start":9201.198,"end":9214.168,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":9219.191,"end":9233.736,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":9253.025,"end":9257.929,"text":"秋成遠、秋成遠、秋成遠委員不在。黃士傑委員"},{"start":9280.266,"end":9285.247,"text":"委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":9297.551,"end":9317.724,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":9327.711,"end":9344.108,"text":"有些員警他有自備所謂的止血帶也就是說用這個止血帶他不但可以幫助自己也幫助同仁甚至協助他在執勤的時候遇到的民眾因為我們知道警察執勤事實上風險相當的高經常都有受傷的可能性"},{"start":9345.863,"end":9368.965,"text":"但是我去查了一下好像目前這個滋血帶的裝備雖然在很多的國家有列為配備給遠景的這個標準的配備但是在我們現在的警察植物的配備機具的配備標準裡面是沒有這個滋血帶的配發我想請教署長因為這個東西雖小但是在緊急的狀況"},{"start":9369.906,"end":9387.736,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":9394.259,"end":9413.746,"text":"謝謝委員的一個提醒,我想這個我們值得來推動,這個會因為地方制度法的一個財政的一個說之劃分,我想地方政府要編列這個預算,那我們會推動到地方警察局那邊來徵取這個預算,那真的不夠我們在中央這邊看在籌經會來預注,"},{"start":9417.307,"end":9436.049,"text":"政策上我是希望你們主動一點去推動,不要每次要增加什麼都說的地方經費不夠,因為這個其實小東西,但是這個效益很高,至少你要讓這個員警如果他自己有需要的話,他可以跟你們申請,這也是一個方法。"},{"start":9437.131,"end":9437.251,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":9449.262,"end":9471.433,"text":"另外還要跟署長來探討一個問題因為不只是這半年今年甚至長年以來特別這兩年各地方政府還有民眾反映噪音的問題也就是說機動車輛特別是改裝的摩托車或是汽車在深夜或是下午"},{"start":9472.293,"end":9475.335,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":9491.445,"end":9511.191,"text":"到底由誰主管這件事情,好像交通部跟警政署還有環境部這一邊,事實上是有一些爭執。監察院上個禮拜有提出一個調查報告,我想也有含附,你們也有回文。"},{"start":9512.131,"end":9531.352,"text":"我看到這個調查報告的時候我蠻訝異的我看到警政署回覆的方向當然就是跟交通部立場一致認為說這個不屬於道交條例這個單純就可以來執法應該要由噪音管制法來下手但是我們知道在基層事實上執法的量能"},{"start":9532.673,"end":9554.909,"text":"兩者之間是不能相提並論的也就是說當然今天民眾他在深夜或者是他在生活中遇到這個情境的時候他第一個找誰啊他當然是找警察嘛對不對結果警察到現場跟他講說啊這個與法不符我不能開單我覺得這個態度民眾沒有辦法解釋"},{"start":9555.916,"end":9572.905,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":9580.129,"end":9592.941,"text":"要求各縣市警察局,尤其夜間的機場,針對有改裝的部分,要做一個開單子,叫監理單位去做檢驗,跟環保單位去測噪音。當然,量能的部分確實面很廣。"},{"start":9602.19,"end":9618.525,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":9619.546,"end":9641.518,"text":"所以你從那邊下手意義不大嘛因為現在的改裝技術又越來越精良然後這個相關的配備又很容易取得嘛對不對所以事實上還是在你在末端你能夠抓到能夠有效的立刻禁止他為什麼他會去爭執說要不要用這個大礁條例的43條因為你可以當場禁止他駕駛"},{"start":9643.369,"end":9650.194,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":9673.496,"end":9701.297,"text":"一直在講說這一條是針對飆車事實上從條文根本看不出來有這個意思當然我知道始作俑者是交通部105年的韓式但是我希望警政署這邊你要拿出一個態度來因為你要解決第一線員警的問題為什麼?因為第一線員警他第一線承受民眾的怨言結果你們明明有一個武器可以去執法可以當場去給他一個嚇阻但是你們卻退縮不前"},{"start":9702.213,"end":9702.934,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、"},{"start":9717.626,"end":9739.2,"text":"就算不用這一條我去查了社會法社會法如果深夜噪音你也有6000塊可以罰但是如果只是罰錢可能還不夠最重要是要制止他駕駛這個行為甚至未來配合祭典我想才能夠真正有效地遏止這個行為而要能夠處理這個用環保的稽查我想"},{"start":9740.27,"end":9755.238,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":9769.906,"end":9770.467,"text":"2、3號投完票以後再規劃執行請勿"},{"start":9783.564,"end":9784.104,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具"},{"start":9812.276,"end":9835.997,"text":"謝謝黃士傑委員。接下來請賴品瑜委員發言。謝謝主席。是不是請主席有請海委會周副主委。請海委會周副主委。"},{"start":9839.334,"end":9862.982,"text":"副主委好,今天我們剛好要來審查這個大陸成交法,那個有關抽砂船條款的部分,那副主委也是我們海巡署的長官,所以我想藉這個機會來請教幾個問題,第一個就是說根據報導,我想副主委也知道說11月30號的時候我們有發生一件事情是什麼,就是有個中國籍的拖船,"},{"start":9863.302,"end":9865.804,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":9883.897,"end":9897.367,"text":"副主委,我想問,因為這次的任務是有圓滿成功,可是我想請教一下,針對這些民用的船隻,海巡署艦隊分署這邊的人力、船隻調度目前到底有沒有辦法去好好的應付這些挑戰?"},{"start":9898.3,"end":9907.587,"text":"審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":9921.758,"end":9939.183,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":9951.186,"end":9954.887,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十。"},{"start":9967.271,"end":9970.354,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":9991.992,"end":9999.066,"text":"警察大學跟警專跟其他經由警察在我們的專業特考進來的人員逐年來禁用。"},{"start":10000.094,"end":10004.937,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":10030.334,"end":10034.998,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":10058.076,"end":10065.681,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":10085.632,"end":10108.8,"text":"針對這種狀況,你們目前有沒有復案?就是說,如果中國的民用船隻,它未經許可到24里臨街區,12里臨海,海巡這邊要怎麼做?是,跟委員做回報。那事實上,海委會在每一季都有跟這個國防部有高層的會談。我們每一次都會針對台灣整個海域的目標的狀況,跟其他"},{"start":10109.5,"end":10117.669,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10125.017,"end":10134.061,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":10154.431,"end":10178.232,"text":"所以聽起來就是副主席這說法就是說其實海委會這邊也是有復案的嘛。 那就看現行法上我一個建議啦。 是不是針對這種灰色地帶的處理我們要怎麼適度的去把它公告出來。 因為現在你是在尋答的時候回答我。但我會建議說是不是這些東西其實你應該要一個把一個辦法適度的公告出來作為一種嚇阻的手段。"},{"start":10179.112,"end":10181.433,"text":"海巡單位目前怎麼處理民用船隻入侵問題?"},{"start":10203.161,"end":10203.581,"text":"二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、"},{"start":10231.653,"end":10234.055,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十。"},{"start":10247.566,"end":10251.349,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":10277.769,"end":10293.416,"text":"跟委員報告,其實馬祖地區就像委員所提到的那抽查船倉決的問題在這一兩年確實比前幾年改善了很多,為什麼?因為我們這個經過立法院立的這個專精法"},{"start":10294.957,"end":10301.202,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":10320.282,"end":10323.268,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":10332.389,"end":10337.152,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":10351.121,"end":10361.025,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":10368.67,"end":10382.684,"text":"不只是抽砂船,就是違法越境的。像今年在馬祖地區,我們現在扣押在岸的,就是留置在我們這個看守單位的,我們大概馬祖地區應該有二十幾員。"},{"start":10386.267,"end":10395.814,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":10414.121,"end":10419.522,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":10443.507,"end":10448.209,"text":"審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委"},{"start":10471.061,"end":10492.37,"text":"那最後一個問題也想要問副主委這邊啦,因為其實如果今天你要處理這個問題,說到底還是希望可以正本清源啦,所以我想要問說目前台海之間有什麼執法扣船或者是返還的規範,那目前就你們掌握啦,中國那邊對於這些非法越界的抽砂船,"},{"start":10492.85,"end":10512.65,"text":"他們的態度到底是放任不管,還是說在某一些特定的情況之下,中國自己也會抓?因為到底要怎麼去建立一個機制,讓這些抽砂船從源頭就減少越界,這其實是很重要的一件事情。是,沒錯,是,委員,我們現在其實在金馬地區,我們都有一個兩岸協同執法,"},{"start":10513.511,"end":10536.588,"text":"目前執行的狀況都非常順遂,我們在律定特定的時間,比如說黃花餘季,或者是近期有一些不安全的因素提高的時候,我們會跟對岸的執法單位共同協派兵力,他們在他們的執法水域,我們在我們的執法水域共同來執法。目前我們執行的狀況都非常順遂。"},{"start":10537.77,"end":10547.448,"text":"對於有效來防止這些不管是不法抽殺,或者是越界捕魚,或者進行其他走私偷渡行為,都有嚇阻的作用。"},{"start":10547.972,"end":10573.097,"text":"是,所以就是也回到前面啦,因為時間到了,我就回到前面也提醒一下就是副主委這邊,就是剛才講的那個書面報告啦,就是說包含我們到底要怎麼去處理民用船隻入侵的問題,還有法理上的依據是什麼,跟其他國家是怎麼處理的,還有你怎麼跟其他單位,海軍啊、國安單位協調,這部分再麻煩三週之內給我報告,謝謝副主委,謝謝主席,謝謝委員關心。"},{"start":10575.3,"end":10583.643,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":10943.83,"end":10965.141,"text":"報告委員會現在進行法案審查,請宣讀討論事項所有條文修正動議,請一併宣讀,宣讀完畢後再進行協商。現在宣讀中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案共兩案。"},{"start":10966.877,"end":10984.872,"text":"委員莊瑞雄等17人提案將第三項序文修正為供前項犯罪用之傳播或其他機械設備不問屬於犯罪行為人與否沒收之,其經判決沒收確定者得失個案情節需要拍埋或編埋或專案報准以下的方式之一處置之。"},{"start":10986.053,"end":11008.824,"text":"委員蔡易餘等16人提案。第三項序文修正為公前項犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備不會屬於犯罪行為人與否沒收之,其經判決沒收確定,得失個案情節需要拍滿或編滿,或專案報准以相應方式之一處置之。現在宣讀槍炮彈藥刀械管制條例。"},{"start":11012.106,"end":11038.624,"text":"本月內政委員會於111年12月22日召開第10屆第6會期第25次全體委員會議審查槍炮彈牙刀械管制條例,其中委員鄭天才等21人提案、時代力量黨團提案、委員張其路等18人提案、委員陳明文等18人提案及委員陳柏惟、許志傑等18人提案等5案,以及委員鄭天才等3人、委員湯惠貞等3人所提修正動議均與宣讀完畢。"},{"start":11039.725,"end":11061.718,"text":"現在宣讀行政院行情審議委員王美惠等22人、委員游玉蘭等16人、委員陳亭飛等16人分別擬具《槍炮彈藥刀卸管制條例部分條文修正草案》案。二、委員蔡易餘等19人擬具《槍炮彈藥刀卸管制條例第7條及第22條條文修正草案》案。二、委員羅美玲等16人擬具《槍炮彈藥刀卸管制條例第4條條文修正草案》案。這條文,"},{"start":11062.779,"end":11077.899,"text":"第四條行政院提案將第三項修正為槍炮彈藥主要組成零件材質與種類及殺傷力之認定基準由中央主管機關公告之,其餘同現行條文。委員羅美玲等16人提案。"},{"start":11078.76,"end":11097.253,"text":"第一項第二款修正為,二、彈藥指前款各式槍炮所使用之炮彈、子彈、空包彈及其他具有殺傷力或破壞性之各類炸彈、爆裂物,其餘同現行條文。委員王美惠等22人提案及委員陳廷飛等16人提案,均同行政院提案。"},{"start":11098.274,"end":11113.307,"text":"委員游一蘭等16人提案第三下修正為槍炮彈藥主要組成零件材質與種類及傷傷力之認定基準,經槍炮彈藥審認徵印諮詢小組審議後由中央主管機關公告之,其與同現行條文。"},{"start":11114.465,"end":11133.568,"text":"第五至二條行政院提案將第一項第六款修正為六、持有人犯本條例之罪經有罪判決確定或犯本條例以外之罪受判處有期徒刑以上之刑確定且未經宣告緩刑或經宣告緩刑被撤銷其餘各款均著作文字修正。"},{"start":11134.389,"end":11158.117,"text":"第六項第一款第272條第三項修正為第272條,第六項第三款本條文修正前的文字修正為中華民國106年6月14日修正公佈之本條文施行前,第六項第四款增列第十三條之一、第二十條之一第三項之第五項文字刪除"},{"start":11159.589,"end":11176.934,"text":"刪除第七項其餘同線型條文。 委員陳廷飛等16人提案同行政院提案。 增訂第五條之三行政院提案第五條之三中央主管機關"},{"start":11180.391,"end":11197.32,"text":"為槍砲彈藥審認爭議的林聘派相關機關構代表及專家學者組成槍砲彈藥審認爭議諮詢小組,其組織及運作方式由中央主管機關定制。五、委員王美惠等20人提案及委員陳廷飛等16人提案均同行政院提案,委員游玉蘭等16人提案,"},{"start":11199,"end":11223.688,"text":"三、中央主管機關為槍炮彈藥審認爭議因零聘派相關機關構代表及學者、專家擔任外聘委員組成槍炮彈藥審認爭議諮詢小組,並適度徵詢民間團體或業者意見。情商爭議諮詢小組之外聘委員人數不得少於全體委員二分之一,其組織會以委員資格認其解聘事由、解聘程序及其他相關事項之準則,由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":11224.881,"end":11249.462,"text":"第七條委員蔡易餘等19人提案將第一項處無期徒刑或7年以上有期徒刑修正為處無期徒刑或10年以上有期徒刑第二項處無期徒刑或5年以上有期徒刑修正為處無期徒刑或7年以上有期徒刑第四項處5年以上有期徒刑修正為處10年以上有期徒刑其餘同現行條文"},{"start":11252.18,"end":11277.68,"text":"審定第九條之一行政院提案第九條之一持第七條第一項所列槍炮於公共場所公眾得出入之場所開槍射擊或朝公共場所公眾得出入之場所開槍射擊者處七年以上有期徒刑並科新台幣1500萬元以下罰金持第八條第一項或第九條第一項所列槍炮於公共場所公眾得出入場所"},{"start":11278.841,"end":11294.06,"text":"開槍射擊或抄公共場所公眾的出入之場所開槍射擊者處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑並科新台幣一千萬元以下罰金犯前二項之罪情節輕微者得減輕其刑。委員王美惠等22人提案"},{"start":11294.901,"end":11313.993,"text":"第一項後段處7年以上有期徒刑修正為處10年以上有期徒刑第二項後段處5年以上12年以下有期徒刑修正為處7年以上12年以下有期徒刑其餘同行政院提案委員游玉蘭等16人提案同行政院提案委員陳廷飛等16人提案第一項第二項"},{"start":11319.761,"end":11337.097,"text":"或朝公共場所公眾得出入之場所開槍射擊者之文字修正為:「或朝公共場所公眾得出入之場所開槍射擊或開槍射擊之行為有波及公共場所公眾得出入之場所之餘者。」其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":11338.362,"end":11363.223,"text":"第十三條行政院提案第一項前段之彈藥修正為或各類炮彈、炸彈、爆裂物其餘同現行條文委員王美惠等22人提案同行政院提案委員陳廷飛等16人提案第一項後段處3年以上10年以下有期徒刑修正為處5年以上10年以下有期徒刑其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":11364.791,"end":11384.529,"text":"審定第十三條之一,行政院提案,第十三條之一,未經許可製造販賣或運輸子彈主要組成民間者,處六個月以上、五年以下有期徒刑,並科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金。未經許可轉讓出租或出借前下民間者,處三年以下有期徒刑,並科新台幣二百萬元以下罰金。"},{"start":11385.35,"end":11405.569,"text":"意圖供自己或他人犯罪之用而犯前二項之罪者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑並科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金。未經許可持有、寄藏或意圖販賣成立第一項所列零件者處一年以上有期徒刑並科新台幣一百萬元以下罰金,刑結七年者等免除期刑。第一項之第三項之未遂犯罰之。"},{"start":11406.73,"end":11422.259,"text":"委員陳廷飛等16人提案第一項後段處6個月以上5年以下有期徒刑修正為處1年以上5年以下有期徒刑刪除第四項後段清潔輕微者得免除其刑之文字其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":11423.359,"end":11451.369,"text":"第十八條第一項及第四項減輕或免除其刑文資修正為得減輕或免除其刑其餘同現行條文委員王美惠等二十人提案第一項及第四項減輕或免除其刑文資修正為得減輕其刑委員游玉蘭等二十人提案第四項後段修正為自白後又拒絕公訴或公訴不實者得加重其刑至二分之一其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":11453.103,"end":11481.37,"text":"委員陳廷飛等16人提案同行政院提案。第二十條之一行政院提案第一項後段增幣模擬槍及其主要組成零件之文字第二項至第四項修正為前項公告查禁之模擬槍及其主要組成零件不得製造販賣運輸轉讓出租、出借、持有、寄藏或陳列但專攻外銷研發並經警察機關許可或隱私設置使用經中央目的事業主管機關核轉中央主管機關許可"},{"start":11482.29,"end":11494.398,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。四、審查委"},{"start":11512.67,"end":11532.003,"text":"現行第五項至第七項及第九項刪除,現行第八項一列第六項並於前段增訂模擬槍及其主要組成零件之文字,現行第十項一列第七項並修正為第二項但屬有關專攻外銷研發許可之申請程序應備文件條件期限廢止,"},{"start":11532.904,"end":11561.001,"text":"定期查核及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同中央目的事業主管機關定之。三、增訂第八項文字為第二項單書有關影視設置使用許可之申請程序應備文件條件期限廢止及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關會同中央主管機關定之。其餘同現行條文委員陳廷飛等16人提案同行政院提案。增訂第二十條之二"},{"start":11562.202,"end":11589.243,"text":"行政院提案第二十條之二未經許可製造販賣或運輸前條第一項公告查禁之模擬槍主要組成零件者處新台幣一百萬元以上一千萬元以下罰還其情節重大者得必領期停止營業或勒令歇業未經許可轉讓出租、出借、持有、寄藏或意圖販賣而成立前條第一項公告查禁之模擬槍主要組成零件者處新台幣二十萬元以上五百萬元以下罰還其情節重大者得必領期停止營業或勒令歇業未經許可轉讓出租、出借、持有、寄藏或意圖販賣而成立前條第一"},{"start":11589.483,"end":11602.301,"text":"其情節重大者得併令其停止營業或勒令興業。公告查禁模擬槍支主要組成臨界不論屬於何人所有目錄之,但有前條第二項單數或同條第六項情形者不在此限。"},{"start":11603.683,"end":11631.624,"text":"委員陳廷飛等16人提案通行政院提案。 增定第20條之三。行政院提案。第20條之三,警察機關為查查槍炮彈藥公告查經之模擬槍及其主要組成靈界,得派員進入槍炮彈藥及模擬槍製造、儲存或販賣場所,就其零組件成品、半成品、各種布測及其他必要之物件實施檢查,並得詢問關係人及另提供必要之資料,前向檢查必要時得會同目的事業主管機關執行之。"},{"start":11632.965,"end":11661.254,"text":"檢查人員於執行第一項規定之檢查任務時應主動出示執行職務之證明文件並不得妨礙該場所正常業務之進行規避妨礙或拒絕第一項之檢查詢問或提供資料者處心臺幣20萬元以上50萬元以下罰款並得按次處罰及強制執行檢查第一項檢查之人員檢查處所對象檢查物品範圍實施程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之委員陳廷飛等16人提案同行政院提案"},{"start":11662.214,"end":11681.294,"text":"二十二條,委員蔡易餘等19人提案,增訂第三項,為鼓勵民眾檢舉違法,落實槍炮源頭管制及清理,提高第一項檢舉獎金,案件判決確定後,每案件給予檢舉人新台幣300萬元,自生效日期施行三年,其餘同現行條文。"},{"start":11682.455,"end":11709.565,"text":"第二十五條行政院提案文字修正為本條立除中華民國九十八年五月二十七日修正公佈之條文字九十八年十一月二十三日施行一百零九年六月十日修正公佈之第二十條第三項。圈年圈日圈日修正之第十三條之一及第二十條之二之施行日期由行政院命定外自公佈日施行。委員陳廷飛等16人提案同行政院提案。現在宣讀"},{"start":11712.952,"end":11740.844,"text":"委員陳婉蕙等3人所提修正動議。第四條,同委員游玉蘭等16人提案。增訂第五條之三,中央主管機關為槍炮彈藥使用爭議的林聘派相關機關構代表及專家學者組成槍炮彈藥使用爭議諮詢小組,其組織及運作方式由中央主管機關定職。下一宣布,委員鄭天才等3人所提修正動議。"},{"start":11742.742,"end":11754.512,"text":"第四條,第三項修正為《槍炮彈藥主要組成民間種類依附表規定》其餘同現行條文。第五條之二,"},{"start":11758.561,"end":11782.688,"text":"第一項第六款修正為持有人受判處有期徒刑以上之刑確定者但受緩刑之宣告緩刑期滿而未經撤銷或因過失犯罪者不在此限。現行法第七項不予刪除其餘同行政院提案。增訂第五條之三"},{"start":11786.485,"end":11808.004,"text":"文字為中央主管機關為槍炮彈藥審認爭議應設置槍炮彈藥審認爭議諮詢小組,臨聘派學者、專家、民間團體及相關機關代表之人數不得少於總數二分之一,具原住民身份代表不得少於十分之一,且任意性別人數不得少於總數三分之一,其組織及運作方式由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":11810.168,"end":11833.476,"text":"第九條之一與第二項後段增訂《範本條例中華民國109年5月22日修正》第20條施行前原住民基於傳統文化技藝非營利自用獵捕野生動物不在此縣。其餘同行政院提案。第十三條增訂第六項"},{"start":11835.031,"end":11861.332,"text":"第一項所稱之主要組成零件不包括原住民用於自製獵槍填充物射出之黑色火藥、敵火或釘槍用邊緣敵火之空包彈。其餘同行政院提案。第十三條之一增訂第六項第一項所稱之主要組成零件不包括原住民用於自製獵槍填充物之彈丸。其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":11863.093,"end":11888.214,"text":"二十條之三,增訂第二十條之三,第一項第二項文字為,警察機關為查查槍炮彈藥公告查禁之模擬槍及其主要組成零件,得派員進入槍炮彈藥及模擬槍製造、儲存或販賣場所,並會同目的事業主管機關就其零組件成品、半成品、各種布測及其他必要之物件實施檢查,並得詢問關閒及另提供必要之資料。"},{"start":11888.954,"end":11903.481,"text":"前項規定之檢查人員於執行檢查任務時應主動出示執行職務之證明文件並不得妨礙該場所正常業務之進行。第三項、第四項同行政院提案之第四項、第五項。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":11919.266,"end":11941.288,"text":"本次會議法案審查順序依議程排列之順序進行,為時討論聚焦。本次會議進行逐條討論時,如有行政院版本就以行政院提案版本為基準,對照各黨團或委員之修法提案來進行。每條條為如有委員提案,先分別請委員表示意見後,行政單位一併恢復。"},{"start":11945.191,"end":11966.057,"text":"現在進行協商,先審查委員莊瑞雄等兩案,中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案,因為只有修正一條條文,所以我就坐在主席台上請教各位的意見。"},{"start":11971.723,"end":11995.117,"text":"提案委員需要說明嗎?主席、還有各位委員,我是海委會副主委兼海巡署署長。我們這次所遭遇的問題就是過往我們所有的這種扣留的這些"},{"start":11996.34,"end":11999.683,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":12013.254,"end":12029.324,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十一、九、十一、十二、十二、十三、十三、十四、十四、十四、十五、十五、十五、十五、十五、十一、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十"},{"start":12034.227,"end":12040.209,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":12053.815,"end":12063.681,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12078.191,"end":12085.777,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":12097.984,"end":12100.365,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":12114.81,"end":12120.972,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":12138.197,"end":12144.739,"text":"審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":12158.291,"end":12179.542,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":12188.049,"end":12198.591,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":12213.943,"end":12216.165,"text":"本次會議審查通過之文字及相關法制用與授權主席及議事人員整理。"},{"start":12238.626,"end":12253.77,"text":"討論事項第一案:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案均與併案審查完畢,據審查報告提到院會討論,請問在場的委員需不需要經過黨團的協商?」"},{"start":12257.878,"end":12285.253,"text":"不須經黨團協商本案與院會討論時有本期作補充說明:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案的部分已經審查完畢,只跟該案有關的列席人員可以先行離席。現在我們要繼續進行協商審查第二案,槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例等11案。」"},{"start":12336.035,"end":12353.878,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":12355.558,"end":12358.86,"text":"王美惠委員、游仁昭委、陳亭飛委員、陳婉蕙委員、鄭天才委員提出修正動議。"},{"start":12373.588,"end":12387.861,"text":"中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。三、中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。四、中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。五、中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12395.86,"end":12400.644,"text":"陳柏惟、游益郎委員、陳亭輝委員、陳柏惟、游益郎委員、陳亭輝委員"},{"start":12424.343,"end":12441.673,"text":"好,來,提委員。主席。是。在這裏,本市實施這個條文的修正,在這裏面就是,可以說,這順便就是,民間的材料的問題,不斷的翻新嘛。在這裏面,我認為民間的材料的規定,我認為應該要嚴格,跟你們看有什麼意見,本市也有提出。"},{"start":12453.46,"end":12474.787,"text":"審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":12477.228,"end":12506.509,"text":"在這個我補充報告我們是不是建立由我們的爭議審議知行小組以後提出這個建立案然後就是他的殺傷力跟那個材質種類由這個小組來認定開會共同決議的認定以後再來公告有中央主管機會來公告是不是這樣子來進行好我們在那個小組的辦法裡面會把它明定清楚"},{"start":12511.261,"end":12532.357,"text":"其他委員有要說明的嗎?有要說明的,因為這是法律的修正,法律的提案。雖然有的委員不在場,我們應該沒有譴責說就不審。"},{"start":12535.339,"end":12536.84,"text":"第四條修正動議是最後一項。"},{"start":12552.134,"end":12578.365,"text":"最後一項裡面我特別修正為《槍炮彈藥主要組成零件總列依附表》的規定。我之所以認為應該把它定在法例裡面,因為現行的列政部和警政署所公告的《槍炮彈藥主要組成零件總列表》,"},{"start":12579.085,"end":12592.288,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":12609.332,"end":12622.147,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":12628.875,"end":12634.162,"text":"審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":12646.434,"end":12656.26,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":12671.809,"end":12681.877,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":12699.65,"end":12700.151,"text":"會否在第五條之三納進更多專家學者的意見?"},{"start":12716.354,"end":12727.559,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、"},{"start":12732.022,"end":12733.464,"text":"公告的頻率是如何?"},{"start":12747.665,"end":12774.1,"text":"《中央主管機關公告》公告這樣的一個基準我們上次公告是多久?那你們這個以一個穩定性來看的話也許你們會認為說因為整個時代確實會改變然後社會有一些科技啊那或者說材料各方面會有新的不同的一個進展那所以我才要請教說你前陣子的功課到現在這麼差多久?有修正過嗎?"},{"start":12778.735,"end":12804.546,"text":"公告是86年就開始公告到現在已經部分有修正過啦有修正過是說修定的情況修定哪一些你不可能變來變去啊不可能你今年這個沒有殺傷力完美你變成有殺傷力你後年修正了不可能啊一定都是要增加槍枝氾濫你增加他管治的一個強度啊"},{"start":12805.586,"end":12833.618,"text":"跟委員報告,我剛剛口誤,就是86年到現在,公告要到現在都沒有修正過了,已經有將近26年之久了,都沒有。那你們修訂的那個考量的要件是什麼?如果不是的話,是不是也,主席,我請司法院今天也有列席嗎?司法院你們的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":12835.929,"end":12836.189,"text":"司法院議員"},{"start":12850.103,"end":12874.68,"text":"司法院刑事廳調辦司法官朱家川發言。目前現行的槍炮條例就是用授權法規命令去定,其實都有點像在補充空白刑法的要件。另外一種立法體力委員提出的比較像是獨領危害方式條例。第二條,因為獨領的種類非常多,"},{"start":12876.261,"end":12901.432,"text":"一、二、三、四級,總共將近七百種,而且是隨時會處於變動的狀態。它是以副表一、副表二、副表三、副表四。另外,它還有明定說主管機關要會同內部部要定期去檢討、去增訂,然後報立法院來查照。所以,應該是看事務的性質。如果我們槍支的主要組成物件,它的變動頻率並沒有像毒品這麼頻繁,"},{"start":12902.432,"end":12912.756,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":12925.94,"end":12939.972,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":12954.087,"end":12972.435,"text":"我們的看法是這樣子,因為你付表,這個就如同剛剛司法院的一個意見,各有缺點,但是有關於零組件的材料或者各樣的性質,其實我們科技日新業易,我哪知道明天會發展什麼一個材料出來,而可能作為"},{"start":12973.095,"end":12976.456,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":12997.142,"end":13007.584,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":13022.387,"end":13044.44,"text":"我的說法是這樣,你這個理論上通啦,可是因為你86年喔,到現在快30年,你這個公告你也沒有去修訂啦,也就是說,我如果想說一個法律用二、三十年,我都是這樣整個給它頂頂的,符合法的明確性,你跟人家的講法是說,有可能兩年三年,我明明什麼材質出來,我以前拍完戲,我把槍管打成水管,"},{"start":13047.708,"end":13052.009,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":13076.583,"end":13078.065,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":13091.502,"end":13094.463,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":13119.286,"end":13145.573,"text":"所以顯然你們現在認為這個公告令有修訂的必要嗎?請問可不可以告訴我們就是為什麼你現在突然間認為有改的必要?幾十年都沒改那你現在準備要怎麼改?要加什麼?然後你為什麼認為說這個不管是殺傷力的任命基準或是材質那你是為了要把它放寬?還是要把它加嚴?還是怎麼樣?因為過去種類其實你訂了這個種類之後"},{"start":13147.774,"end":13153.657,"text":"中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。三、中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。四、"},{"start":13164.283,"end":13183.181,"text":"你們應該把你們為什麼要提案這一個這樣子訂的理由說出來給我們知道不然的話就會回到剛才我們一直在講的如果你一直回到只有種類然後你要幾十年沒改那好像訂成副表也很合理啊所以你們要把你們的條文的意思把它說清楚"},{"start":13185.544,"end":13213.077,"text":"跟委員報告這次會把他納入材質就是要界定他的這個槍械主要組成零件的硬度硬度的話達到什麼硬度他用火藥式的那個敵火開槍的話對他的承受度的一個問題那第二個就是殺傷力我們要把它明確化現在殺傷力的一個法律就是81年司法院秘書長的一個函式"},{"start":13214.117,"end":13227.843,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":13241.65,"end":13247.195,"text":"現在還是打豬皮是不是?對,現在是打豬皮,二是嬌兒啦,可以穿拓啦。"},{"start":13248.223,"end":13256.626,"text":"蔡易餘等16人擬具、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、蔡易餘等16人擬具、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、蔡易餘等16人擬具、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":13272.852,"end":13292.191,"text":"這個是我們有委託我們金屬研究所,還有他,這個部分我們在111年,那個部分我們就已經開始對這個模擬槍,非制式槍,模擬槍,還有遊戲用槍,"},{"start":13294.301,"end":13298.463,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":13313.829,"end":13323.518,"text":"槍枝要承受火藥爆炸力的剛度跟硬度跟一般是有一些不一樣,所以我們為了要認定模擬槍還有非自式槍枝還有槍枝,這個可以讓我們刑事局做一個鑑驗,然後來做一些區別。"},{"start":13334.469,"end":13337.41,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":13349.496,"end":13366.187,"text":"所以這樣講就很清楚也就是說這一條你們要定跟其實我們也都一直在網路上還有可能這個不只是業者還有一些這個玩家或是說這些就是對於這個遊戲槍或是模擬槍他們有一些這個同號的"},{"start":13371.631,"end":13378.953,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":13393.877,"end":13399.604,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":13413.3,"end":13441.35,"text":"但是這個東西又是新的你現在要增訂這個材質跟跟這個殺傷力的規定的話殺傷力可能還是會比較穩定啦因為殺傷力這一個任命標準我們只是要把它法制化應該也不會去把那個標準做太大的變動也不會常常變動但是材質的話呢就可能會因為你要畫這樣的界線的話就會有很多不同的可能本來這個材質我們認為可以可是可能經過"},{"start":13442.31,"end":13450.978,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":13466.353,"end":13484.427,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":13490.725,"end":13511.372,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":13519.076,"end":13525.445,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":13538.984,"end":13557.91,"text":"這個戶表它還是會經過依照的程序。我知道,主要程序不同啊。程序不同啊。現在我們最主要是說,讓這個入法以後的授權依據,有母法授權啦。授權完以後再訂一個基準。我這個更明確更好啊。"},{"start":13558.857,"end":13566.742,"text":"因為怕這個彈性的問題,你現在定每一次如果修的話,都要經過立法院。就是因為你們彈性常常就是違反法律保留的原則啊。"},{"start":13567.967,"end":13592.048,"text":"就是因為過去授權你們太寬鬆了,然後你們就違反法律保留的原則,是涉及到人民權利義務。政委,我來說明一下,這個案子其實你的問題我剛也有提出來了,我剛為什麼特別會去詢問他們那個整個基準公告基準,幾年以後都沒有修訂,我其實就是要問的,"},{"start":13592.568,"end":13597.31,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":13620.302,"end":13624.985,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":13639.072,"end":13661.273,"text":"我的問題倒反而剛好跟你相反是說你這二、三十年全部沒有去動它你突然要弄這個的意義在什麼地方才會請法務部跟請那個司法院來做說明大家都知道86年這個年代對法律保留對最相關的這些人民權利義務那個年代是沒有那麼保障那麼嚴謹"},{"start":13664.079,"end":13666.881,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":13685.567,"end":13691.55,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":13710.612,"end":13716.62,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十。"},{"start":13726.454,"end":13726.474,"text":"第10頁"},{"start":13745.072,"end":13751.073,"text":"委員張祺、陸根、陳柏惟委員各有提案。"},{"start":13777.266,"end":13796.175,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":13803.905,"end":13807.168,"text":"有鄭天才委員的修正動議。"},{"start":13825.161,"end":13828.325,"text":"第五條之二修正第一項第六款"},{"start":13838.218,"end":13853.013,"text":"但受緩刑之宣告緩刑期滿而未經撤銷或因過失犯罪者不在此限。這個部分事實上我在質詢很多次也開過協調會本來"},{"start":13855.896,"end":13874.993,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":13884.383,"end":13905.157,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":13914.824,"end":13931.345,"text":"本條例自中華民國106年5月20日修正之本條文施行前,原住民犯前項規定以外之罪,今直轄市縣市住管居然依第一項第六款規定撤銷或廢止其自製類槍或儀槍之許可。"},{"start":13932.987,"end":13947.052,"text":"上位給假收購者直轄市縣市主管局會應通知其已三個月內重新申請席可,藉其未申請席可或其申請未經席可者仍依規定給假收購。"},{"start":13955.555,"end":13965.579,"text":"中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。三、中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。四、中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。五、中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13985.26,"end":14010.255,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":14015.632,"end":14023.487,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、"},{"start":14028.82,"end":14055.585,"text":"第九款以後,就是全向自治列槍寄用人,以享有法並繼承權人之一人為限,但未成年人或無行為能力者不得申請繼續持有。剛剛我在質詢的時候也講過了,原住民族的文化,其實第一,女人不可以打獵,所以呢,第二呢,我們也沒有所謂的未成年跟"},{"start":14056.385,"end":14064.252,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":14076.042,"end":14096.705,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":14098.046,"end":14118.812,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":14126.482,"end":14137.708,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":14142.97,"end":14147.334,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":14170.012,"end":14174.576,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":14187.165,"end":14188.427,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具"},{"start":14205.109,"end":14227.265,"text":"必須以原民會所定的我們獵人的文化。我們獵人的文化跟織布的女人的文化其實都有一定的規範。所以它不是以現在我們中華民國的法律是以所謂的幾歲幾歲算成年。所以請你們尊重一下原民會所定定的原住民的文化的準則好不好。謝謝。"},{"start":14228.266,"end":14254.324,"text":"在此我認為我們說的也有理,因為要製成是大人的東西,他也是大人,當時要製成他也不知道,所以他未成年不能製成這個東西也覺得很奇怪,但我們考慮的是,當他未成年走去,不知道要去用什麼還是救人,"},{"start":14255.512,"end":14267.921,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":14278.792,"end":14291.743,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":14295.211,"end":14318.143,"text":"但確實在很多的有狩獵傳統的這個原住民族的族群裡面在過去他們確實是從幾乎可以說是從小就會跟著他們的長輩一起去狩獵所以像以我自己為例其實我大概國小23年級的時候就跟著我爸爸去狩獵而且就是用當時還是用自製獵槍"},{"start":14319.284,"end":14329.787,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":14343.872,"end":14346.294,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":14366.333,"end":14392.381,"text":"我想這基本上我們不反對那如果訂定了這一個基層是一回事使用是一回事那使用的部分是不是就是售權去訂定相關的規定比如說可能人民會去訂的相關的使用規定那這一部分OK可以那文字你們來修一下好嗎在第五條之二"},{"start":14395.512,"end":14399.514,"text":"二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、"},{"start":14423.018,"end":14427.822,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":14443.628,"end":14453.118,"text":"五、三、有王美惠委員、游益郎委員、陳廷飛委員、鄭德財委員等。"},{"start":14460.669,"end":14473.016,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":14494.878,"end":14495.339,"text":"正義諮詢小組"},{"start":14505.578,"end":14532.735,"text":"我這個修正動議主要是有第四條跟第五之三那我一起講就是第四條的部分我是跟行政院的想法是一樣是希望把材質種類跟殺傷率設定的標準都要納入管理來面對現在多元的槍支犯罪的問題但是這邊我們還是希望在認定上面不僅僅只是警務機關去做相關的公告而是"},{"start":14533.175,"end":14554.923,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十一、九、十二、十一、十二、十二、十三、十二、十三、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十"},{"start":14561.663,"end":14577.534,"text":"委員,你的這個五之三的這內容是不是跟我們議員訪詢一樣的?是一樣的。我們主席還沒納入多元的這個專家寫者。在這條裡面,我們是不是要多納入專家的人?"},{"start":14584.571,"end":14594.382,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":14607.282,"end":14623.512,"text":"學者、專家、民間團體及相關機關代表的人數不得少於總數二分之一,據原住民身份代表不得少於十分之一。審查委員蔡易餘等15人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等15人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等15人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等15人�"},{"start":14635.68,"end":14647.645,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":14664.653,"end":14670.114,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":14689.318,"end":14693.601,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":14707.312,"end":14729.412,"text":"這種狀況之下他可能也是有一定的殺傷力所以我剛才一直在說你那個殺傷力的定義也要明確嘛不然在這種狀況之下難道你要通通去管制嗎因為他這個其實一不小心就會管得太寬啦所以是不是能夠去藉由這個審議小組的機制來明確的定立這個到底有多類似的認定基準對這是我這邊的建議"},{"start":14731.596,"end":14739.045,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":14747.735,"end":14752.739,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":14766.932,"end":14783.887,"text":"第五條之三我提的修正動議最主要就是參考很多相關的條文包括《7.22變遷運營法》還有《跟蹤、騷擾、防治》很多這裡面都會提到原住民的代表"},{"start":14784.628,"end":14812.474,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":14814.932,"end":14816.414,"text":"本條例以慰之罪。"},{"start":14821.311,"end":14848.948,"text":"因為這個自制列槍過去很嚴格洗得丁不行啊現在洗得丁可以了那我們要申請的啊因為以前被判了緩刑了不行然後我們現在是109年修正了那未來你們公告了組成零件啊那之前被判緩刑的也不能申請自制列槍啊那或是森林法不是你們寫本條理以外之罪"},{"start":14850.984,"end":14852.744,"text":"本條例以外之罪本條例以外之罪本條例以外之罪本條例以外之罪本條例以外之罪本條例以外之罪"},{"start":14878.786,"end":14883.429,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":14904.141,"end":14906.162,"text":"本條例被緩刑先告。"},{"start":14928.427,"end":14932.697,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":14941.542,"end":14965.279,"text":"審查委員,您是不是來解釋一下原住民犯前項規定以外之罪,你還要經直轄市縣市主管機關依第一項第六款規定撤銷或廢止其自治列交或宇江之許可?這好像更嚴格的感覺。我們本來是已經進到第五條。不好意思,現在又回到第五條。抱歉抱歉。你那是第六款的部分嗎?是不是?"},{"start":14969.059,"end":14996.767,"text":"你是不是請警政署解釋一下,署長,還是司法單位,我們司法院。原來以前我們之前它的是第六款是持有人受判處有其圖形以上之刑確定者,那現在我們有把它放寬到經緩刑宣告未被撤銷,所以其實我們是有放寬,那至於換本條例"},{"start":14998.127,"end":15026.134,"text":"以外最最主要是要放寬讓大家都能夠一體適用其實原住民也在這裡面有價算可以現在就是說我剛講的我剛講的你要按你要就我說的來說來重點第一個一開始你們的管理辦法說洗得丁不行對不對最高法院判決說這樣的規定是"},{"start":15028.285,"end":15036.425,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":15037.779,"end":15054.669,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":15064.995,"end":15080.329,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":15090.998,"end":15110.086,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":15122.854,"end":15126.255,"text":"第一項第六款,它不是只針對原住民,它是針對全部的人。"},{"start":15153.763,"end":15179.954,"text":"因為他的立法政策立法意旨看起來就是考量說槍彈的危害性很大所以要使用的人一定要比較謹慎小心高度守法意識這樣的人來使用所以如果你看我們原先現行的是只要是判處有期徒刑以上之刑確定就一律撤銷就不能再繼續持有使用槍炮那針對原住民的部分現行條文在第六項"},{"start":15181.034,"end":15197.279,"text":"第六項其實已經有放寬了,第六項是現已故意犯,所以一般人不管故意過失,只要犯罪被判有期徒刑確定,就不能再拿槍,可是原住民是過失犯已經放寬了就可以。再來的話,現已犯重罪,"},{"start":15198.359,"end":15222.399,"text":"如果不是法定期三年以上的,也一樣,只有限定在犯重罪以及第六項各款所列這些比較特殊的罪名之外,除了這些狀況之外的話,原則上都還是讓原罪名可以繼續使用持有槍職。上次討論有提到要再放寬,其實違反槍炮在現行的第六項的第四款本來就有了,"},{"start":15222.879,"end":15227.583,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":15242.657,"end":15258.47,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":15269.019,"end":15275.725,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":15295.843,"end":15314.074,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":15326.144,"end":15334.751,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":15336.707,"end":15362.857,"text":"我們都充分尊重我們整個原住民的朋友其實你看我一直都不講話我也因為在我自己的選區裡面其實也很多原住民的朋友那其實我們在修這個法令的時候我們充分的尊重可是我們其實也有感受到壓力的是說原住民原鄉裡面其實本來就是有漢人有原住民其他都住在一起的"},{"start":15363.857,"end":15368.982,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":15388.12,"end":15412.066,"text":"最高法院的判決也說這樣的辦法是不能用許得丁是錯的但是我們之前有很多的法官第一、第二法院、二審就判我們就沒有上訴了就判緩刑你要聽你要聽清楚就判緩刑所以後來法規辦法修了許得丁可以了"},{"start":15413.783,"end":15440.098,"text":"但是那些被緩刑的人,到現在為止,按照現在的條文,還是不能申請自製獵槍。這是第一個。第二個,109年修正了,行政院、內政部、警政署聽到了原住民的聲音,立法院聽到了原住民的聲音,修了,109年修了,要更強化。"},{"start":15441.809,"end":15469.498,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":15474.314,"end":15499.064,"text":"違憲違憲喔!憲法法庭說違憲那現在呢?之前因為違憲然後被判緩刑的人還是不行?按照現在的規定是這樣啊?這當然不對啊!憲法法庭都說這個辦法是違憲的當初被判的人你要不要重新判決?不能重新判決"},{"start":15500.472,"end":15520.34,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。四、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":15523.41,"end":15537.634,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。四、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":15551.144,"end":15556.207,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":15568.321,"end":15586.899,"text":"我還沒有用那個有罪判決確定的捏,我還沒有要求到這樣捏,我只不過是緩刑的而已。委員您講的就是,您講的是類似公那個選法法律26條,後來我們不是有訂定109之前那個,那個排除嗎?對啊,排除啊。"},{"start":15588.889,"end":15606.621,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":15610.143,"end":15614.187,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":15635.056,"end":15640.973,"text":"我倒也不覺得是有違憲的問題啦是要考量說你要這個有涉及到涉及既往啦"},{"start":15642.435,"end":15653.58,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":15669.348,"end":15674.11,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":15685.57,"end":15687.371,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":15710.285,"end":15737.266,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":15740.216,"end":15753.001,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":15766.766,"end":15769.281,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":15771.596,"end":15772.617,"text":"五條G2的文字已經修正好了,"},{"start":15803.859,"end":15816.108,"text":"未成年人之繼承及使用之相關規定管理事宜,另由中央目的事業主管機關定定之。"},{"start":15829.997,"end":15835.901,"text":"對,所以您是不是按照原住民持有自製列槍的部分也可以在這邊來處理?這個有沒有辦法處理?"},{"start":15841.169,"end":15856.783,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":15864.81,"end":15881.289,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":15887.778,"end":15896.061,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":15911.826,"end":15918.491,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":15930.08,"end":15932.521,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":15945.52,"end":15949.322,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":15962.208,"end":15977.48,"text":"自召集人一人由本部警政署署長指定警政委員兼任之。然後本小組自委員9人到21人當然委員除召集人之外,裡面就沒有人民會,連地方政府都有。"},{"start":15978.22,"end":15996.368,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十一、九、十一、十二、十二、十三、十二、十三、十二、十三、十二、十三、十二、十二、十三、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十"},{"start":15997.768,"end":16003.19,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":16023.558,"end":16040.347,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十一、九、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二"},{"start":16042.389,"end":16057.638,"text":"以後請你們注意一下,以後請你們注意一下,眼睛裡面不要有沒有原名會,然後接著下來就是原住民的代表的名額了,好不好?你名額只有兩個,我是在21人只有兩個,我們能做什麼樣的一個決策?可是你到底是9人的兩個還是21個人的兩個?沒有啊?"},{"start":16070.902,"end":16088.87,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":16101.463,"end":16113.737,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":16116.8,"end":16131.969,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":16143.857,"end":16150.438,"text":"我們也讓你們槍炮彈藥條例第20條過了。結果呢,第三項裡面,我跟鄭天才委員兩個人就在法治委員會裡面強力的要求內政委員會強力支持國防部一定要進來。然後國防部也在第20條之三裡面也放進去了。結果在你們的草案裡面,還有明文規定說我們的國防部必須要研製"},{"start":16172.262,"end":16184.63,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":16196.758,"end":16216.249,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":16226.335,"end":16250.671,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":16256.883,"end":16262.219,"text":"因為大家都互相尊重,歡迎尊重人民好,"},{"start":16263.848,"end":16266.39,"text":"五、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":16289.807,"end":16298.785,"text":"當然委員除召集人之外有沒有把園民會放進去?有有有有有有有有有有有有有那這個園民會有包含這個原住民的代表兩人嗎?"},{"start":16301.363,"end":16315.251,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、"},{"start":16329.438,"end":16344.75,"text":"第三十五頁,第六條之一有陳明仁委員與陳柏惟委員的提案。懸刑法條"},{"start":16355.902,"end":16371.962,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":16377.048,"end":16405.807,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":16407.611,"end":16426.395,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":16438.358,"end":16445.804,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":16467.675,"end":16469.376,"text":"中華民國109年5月22日修正第20條施行前原住民記憶傳統文化"},{"start":16496.502,"end":16518.615,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":16520.99,"end":16531.815,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":16545.826,"end":16550.112,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":16564.451,"end":16593.628,"text":"不是我的意思是說我還沒反應過來啦我還沒反應過來就是說我們第九條之一是在處理的是說在公共場所和觀眾得出入的場所你去開箱射擊或朝公共場所射擊我們原住民朋友會這樣嗎?會基於我們有傳統文化這個記憶然後我們就拿著槍去這樣掃射嗎?不會吧?我是說要處理什麼的舉那個個案合理我一定支持你啊"},{"start":16601.103,"end":16614.595,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":16616.226,"end":16634.74,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。"},{"start":16636.394,"end":16650.247,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":16662.301,"end":16679.72,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":16684.597,"end":16688.042,"text":"中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":16702.834,"end":16728.215,"text":"跟委員報告那個子彈主要組成零件我們有考慮到工業用還有原住民在使用的這些空炮彈所以我們現在是針對制式的中央敵火空炮彈才有做管制所以已經把原住民在使用喜德丁的這個空炮彈的部分已經把它排除掉未來我們會把它排除所以現在包含嗎沒有現在也沒有訂啊"},{"start":16729.178,"end":16735.342,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":16755.396,"end":16758.259,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":16773.452,"end":16800.041,"text":"對這兩部分應該是沒有關係,母法過了我們馬上訂,現在也在這個三年七個月都還沒訂出來,那個是因為牽涉了兩個單位,那個吳立法要發言了,沒有,因為我剛好,對啊,因為我們說有空裝情啊,想說這個部分其實還是要立法啊,"},{"start":16801.901,"end":16823.966,"text":"因為現在子彈的部分他的12條跟13條的部分那他子彈完整的部分他的行者反而比這個零件還還重所以當時我們在86年的部分沒有把子彈的零件列進去那現在因為考慮到這個子彈很容易透過這個彈頭彈殼"},{"start":16826.707,"end":16832.649,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":16855.035,"end":16876.365,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":16882.478,"end":16891.127,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":16901.15,"end":16924.022,"text":"我們在九十一的說明三、四十二頁的說明三裡面有提到,有講到,有講到說原住民因為四四八零三之後,所有原住民基於文化或者是傳統技藝所做的這些開槍行為都不會被認定是違法的。那所以他今天如果是因為,都不會認定違法!"},{"start":16925.748,"end":16932.174,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":16948.988,"end":16953.252,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":16966.525,"end":16976.514,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":16984.521,"end":16999.405,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":17017.252,"end":17037.026,"text":"我對於原住民朋友的傳統文化我絕對充分尊重但是呢就是那一些記憶以外的喔你說去開槍說什麼你說要跟其他人享有更好的優惠這個法律就不是公平適用就不是這樣看喔這個就是我們擔心的為什麼"},{"start":17037.927,"end":17057.822,"text":"因為這個新增第九條之一這個第二項這個列腔是含進去的除五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑並科新台幣一千萬元我的意思是說就是這樣子沒有講清楚因為如果"},{"start":17059.079,"end":17077.543,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":17087.694,"end":17090.458,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":17104.67,"end":17114.732,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":17131.155,"end":17132.296,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":17159.868,"end":17165.989,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":17188.223,"end":17193.811,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":17200.492,"end":17208.356,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":17225.776,"end":17237.602,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十。"},{"start":17242.543,"end":17244.625,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":17268.027,"end":17271.248,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":17292.414,"end":17296.097,"text":"審法判決說這個辦法是違憲的,我們現在持有的自制列槍是違憲的辦法,"},{"start":17312.828,"end":17316.95,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":17328.473,"end":17340.177,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":17357.383,"end":17360.85,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":17369.645,"end":17373.706,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":17394.492,"end":17406.537,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":17420.033,"end":17428.481,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":17444.758,"end":17449.362,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":17472.156,"end":17485.201,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":17502.079,"end":17523.658,"text":"第十三條有陳明文委員、美惠委員還有陳廷輝委員的這個提案還有院版。來,這個部分。他們在寫。他們在寫。他們在寫。他們在寫。他們在寫。他們在寫。他們在寫。他們在寫。他們在寫。他們在寫。"},{"start":17528.792,"end":17531.658,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":17539.761,"end":17558.011,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":17565.59,"end":17592.962,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":17594.127,"end":17598.471,"text":"因為我們現在自製列槍還是要用工業用的空包彈吧?"},{"start":17607.389,"end":17625.562,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":17634.52,"end":17641.371,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":17643.641,"end":17663.517,"text":"有權民文委員、網美會委員、有育來委員、陳廷輝委員的版本,還有院版。有權民文委員、網美會委員、有育來委員、陳廷輝委員的版本,還有院版。有權民文委員、網美會委員、有育來委員、陳廷輝委員的版本,還有院版。有權民文委員、網美會委員、有育來委員、陳廷輝委員的版本,還有院版。有權民文委員、網美會委員、有育來委員、陳廷輝委員的版本,還有院版。有權民文委員、網美會委員、有育來委員、陳廷輝委員的版本,還有院版。有權民文委員、網美會委員、有"},{"start":17665.919,"end":17678.126,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":17680.768,"end":17695.94,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":17698.015,"end":17716.247,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16"},{"start":17720.233,"end":17735.991,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":17737.893,"end":17740.656,"text":"刑法62條,自首就是得減刑。"},{"start":17753.909,"end":17771.938,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":17783.263,"end":17788.228,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":17794.518,"end":17797.679,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":17822.738,"end":17829.023,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":17841.381,"end":17846.062,"text":"二十條之一,第五十七頁,有張祺祿委員、陳明文委員、陳柏惟委員、陳廷飛委員的提案,還有《時代力量》也有提的版本,還有院版。"},{"start":17876.766,"end":17880.055,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十。"},{"start":17881.38,"end":17902.853,"text":"好,第二十條之一照院版通過。然後再來的話就是增訂第二十條之二是在第七十三頁有陳婷菲委員的版本還有院版。好,第二十條之二如果沒有問題我們就照院版。二十條之二確認一下。有問題嗎?二十條之二有問題嗎?嗯。等一下看一下。"},{"start":17912.352,"end":17920.158,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":17932.395,"end":17932.955,"text":"七十三頁有問題。"},{"start":17945.148,"end":17947.71,"text":"二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、"},{"start":17970.809,"end":17974.173,"text":"禁止製造、販賣或運輸模擬槍主要組成零件。"},{"start":17989.09,"end":18008.382,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":18019.309,"end":18023.997,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":18037.947,"end":18045.41,"text":"二十條之二修正通過,七十四頁增訂二十條之三有陳廷飛委員的版本,也有願版。"},{"start":18061.314,"end":18071.467,"text":"二十條之三,正天才委員也有修正動議。"},{"start":18079.454,"end":18096.265,"text":"第二委員委要說明的嗎?還是這一個要照院版?二、二十條之三。"},{"start":18103.428,"end":18110.913,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":18121.921,"end":18132.051,"text":"人力問題,經濟部派遣人力問題,給警察機關有彈性一點,這是可以有效的遏阻。"},{"start":18148.505,"end":18163.358,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":18176.315,"end":18176.515,"text":"主管機關主管機關"},{"start":18190.43,"end":18208.754,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":18219.454,"end":18219.994,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、"},{"start":18238.204,"end":18265.322,"text":"因為這個部分之前在行政院的院會那個都有討論過了那就是說基於就是說因為這個查核的部分主要可能還是涉及到那個那個所謂的模擬槍他比較認定上的一個部分那可能還是要回歸到那個警政署這邊來去做查核會比較適合所以這個部分原則上是在行政院會裡面討論的一個結果這樣"},{"start":18271.989,"end":18281.781,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":18284.605,"end":18298.894,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、七、八、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、"},{"start":18302.256,"end":18314.322,"text":"二十五條,七十八頁有廷輝委員的提案,也有院版,我們就照院版通過。第三條,暫時保留的提案,第四條。"},{"start":18326.723,"end":18334.246,"text":"第四條的部分,好,我們回到第四條,來,來,這個部分,第四條,"},{"start":18358.087,"end":18359.839,"text":"暫時保留,回到第四條。"},{"start":18364.352,"end":18382.941,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":18391.926,"end":18408.479,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":18413.342,"end":18437.557,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":18442.332,"end":18453.163,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十一、九、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二、十二"},{"start":18466.917,"end":18487.651,"text":"二條之二,就把立法理由裡面把它說明了。好,第五條之二,我們來看一下第一項第六款,持有人犯本條例之罪經有罪判決定。這個是在立法說明的時候,只是在修立法說明是不是?"},{"start":18489.008,"end":18514.677,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":18517.748,"end":18532.144,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":18534.72,"end":18556.778,"text":"二十條之二除了這個第一項跟第二項我們有增加文字那個圓圓就補上去了那再來就是它的立法說明的第四項基於對原住民族傳統文化之尊重原住民自製獵槍時使用之主要組成零件不適用本條規定這沒問題吧"},{"start":18560.121,"end":18564.888,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":18580.62,"end":18597.264,"text":"第二十條之二,我們第一項跟第二項有增加那個文字,就是儲新台幣100萬元以上、1000萬元以下罰款增加的那個元。第二項也是儲新台幣20萬元以上、500萬元以下增加這個元。"},{"start":18598.064,"end":18607.269,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":18627.875,"end":18655.877,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、十一、十三、十一、十二、十三、十三、十一、十三、十一、十三、十一、十三、十一、十三、十一、十三、十一、十三、十一、十三、十一、十三、十一、十三、十三、十一、十三、十三、十一、十三、十三、十一、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十三、十"},{"start":18665.101,"end":18677.45,"text":"第四新增的部分是基於對原住民主傳統之文化尊重,原住民自製獵槍時使用之主要組成零件,不適用本條規定。"},{"start":18695.736,"end":18697.937,"text":"二十條之二,我們就修正通過。"},{"start":18709.553,"end":18734.968,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十一、九、十一、第幾頁、第九十一、第幾頁、第九十一、第幾頁、第幾頁、第九十一、第幾頁、第九十一、第幾頁、第九十一、第幾頁、第九十一、第幾頁、第九十一、第幾頁、第九十一、第幾頁、第九十一、第幾頁、第九十一、第幾頁、第九十一、第幾頁、第九十一、第幾頁、第九十一、第幾頁、第九十一、第九十一、第幾頁、第九十一、第九十一、第九十一、第九十一、第九十一、第九十一、第九十一、第九十一、第九十"},{"start":18738.08,"end":18761.085,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、"},{"start":18764.685,"end":18792.499,"text":"針對第一項第六款,我們是來修它的立法說明,在第一項第六款緩刑的部分它的這個立法說明,兩位委員看一下可以嗎?"},{"start":18794.045,"end":18813.51,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、一、九、十、"},{"start":18816.664,"end":18826.397,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":18833.359,"end":18850.425,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、"},{"start":18856.249,"end":18883.384,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、"},{"start":18886.192,"end":18903.183,"text":"第五條之二,第五條之二的第六項,就是未成年人之繼承及使用之相關規定。管理事宜,我們行政單位是建議把管理事宜這四個字拿掉。"},{"start":18908.153,"end":18916.934,"text":"未成年人之繼承及使用之相關規定,另由中央目的事業主管機關訂定之。第九條"},{"start":18940.632,"end":18950.074,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":18964.687,"end":18972.29,"text":"未成年人之繼承及使用之相關規定,列由中央目的事業主管機關訂定之。"},{"start":18995.02,"end":19018.501,"text":"列由原住民組委員會：立法院第十八條條文修正草案案。二、列由原住民組委員會：立法院第十八條條文修正草案案。二、列由原住民組委員會：立法院第十八條條文修正草案案。二、列由原住民組委員會：立法院第十八條條文修正草案案。二、列由原住民組委員會：立法院第十八條條文修正草案案。二、列由原住民組委員會：立法院第十八條條文修正草案案。二、列由原住民組委員會：立法院第十八條條文修正草案案。二、列由原住民組委"},{"start":19020.444,"end":19026.966,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":19048.826,"end":19073.013,"text":"一、第九條之一就是把經許可這三個字拿掉。就是立法說明三的部分。立法說明三的部分就是一、二、三、四、五、六、七、第九條之一。立法說明三經許可這三個字拿掉。"},{"start":19074.053,"end":19100.849,"text":"金許可持有自製獵槍或漁槍者,現在把金許可拿掉,這樣沒問題,好,如果沒有問題的話,是有另外,是從這邊看還是從另外一條裡面印的看,不是啊,立法說,這裡這裡,已經有修正文字,對啊,對啊,剛剛一直說有爭議嘛,對啊,拿掉啊,"},{"start":19104.69,"end":19109.292,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十。"},{"start":19151.312,"end":19159.498,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":19161.943,"end":19182.697,"text":"審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委"},{"start":19192.441,"end":19212.733,"text":"你把經許可改成遠送許可。你不要幫他們解釋,你講的他們不信任,你要經過我。我現在像那個靈媒一樣要溝通,他們兩個經過我解釋,他們兩個就通了。"},{"start":19218.657,"end":19243.715,"text":"剛剛你那個天才還有我們,你們剛提到那個部分,其實我在,我們都是同事,我再來講一次,行政院的版本根本就沒問題,是真的是你們誤解啦,天才,可是法官有時候,不是不是,因為鄭文財我看他心情不太好,所以他講話都錯你知道嗎,你那個立法理由,天才你再看一下,你那個那個那個42頁那個地方,"},{"start":19245.976,"end":19270.942,"text":"按第二條規範意旨依法使用槍砲人員非本條例規範對象,故依法令配用槍砲之軍警、海巡、特勤等人員,於依法令執行職務範疇內之涉及行為及,經許可持有自制列槍或魚槍者,與其援受許可範圍之狩獵捕魚。"},{"start":19274.236,"end":19279.481,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":19293.587,"end":19295.968,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":19321.069,"end":19327.554,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":19345.199,"end":19370.725,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":19374.266,"end":19375.927,"text":"與其原受許可使用。"},{"start":19393.106,"end":19410.322,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":19411.91,"end":19421.376,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":19429.161,"end":19442.392,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":19459.037,"end":19482.418,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":19485.957,"end":19512.966,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":19514.537,"end":19533.41,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":19534.86,"end":19546.766,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":19549.887,"end":19570.657,"text":"不是,我覺得你們這樣要求過分了。你像譬如說,我知道你的意思就是說未經許可這個全部都拿掉。那現在未經許可部分,我們這個部分就是沒有入罪化嘛。你這個部分是行政法嘛。那你現在講的是你全部都不要管我啦。沒有許可的我也可以開啦。"},{"start":19572.11,"end":19590.444,"text":"我們只是限收在文化際遇的場合,我們拿的這支列槍是符合憲法,但是不符合你的管理辦法。"},{"start":19596.607,"end":19600.569,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":19617.978,"end":19627.825,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":19633.183,"end":19644.008,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":19654.258,"end":19672.589,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":19684.246,"end":19696.652,"text":"本來我們本來一二十條沒有刑責,但是到了這邊就變成有刑責,而且很重,很重。沒有,你還是要合格,也就合格。"},{"start":19710.049,"end":19715.854,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":19730.677,"end":19732.898,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":19758.37,"end":19764.235,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":19787.033,"end":19797.38,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":19815.589,"end":19828.618,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":19837.253,"end":19853.923,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":19861.607,"end":19866.329,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":19888.075,"end":19912.078,"text":"不是,因為法律條文它本來真的就是抽象,那我們在立法裡面我們已經用白話文把它說這個整個在傳統文化範圍還有這個整個原售許可的一個售類補餘,這一些全部都叫做依法令之行為不法了,我們都已經講得這麼白囉。"},{"start":19914.005,"end":19918.247,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十。"},{"start":19933.072,"end":19935.575,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":19951.474,"end":19975.682,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":19981.735,"end":19991.043,"text":"審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":20008.657,"end":20018.779,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":20035.353,"end":20044.076,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":20065.393,"end":20074.839,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":20094.107,"end":20096.588,"text":"未成年人之繼承及使用之相關規定另由中央援助民族主管機關定之。"},{"start":20123.206,"end":20137.518,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":20150.44,"end":20157.97,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":20166.881,"end":20190.201,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":20192,"end":20196.301,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":20219.881,"end":20233.991,"text":"就跟你們的本意也沒有違背啊。要不懂啊,才會越來越精進啊。"},{"start":20244.657,"end":20246.538,"text":"這才會越賣越貴。這也那個不修,因為彈數有寫,就加在那裡。"},{"start":20280.996,"end":20294.419,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":20312.568,"end":20335.388,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、十、一、二、三、十、一、二、三、十、一、二、三、十、一、二、三、十、一、二、三、十、一、二、三、十、一、二、三、十、一、二、三、十、一、二、三、十、一、二、三、十、一、二、三、十、一、二、三、十、一、二、三、十、一、二、三、十、一、二、三、十、一、二、三、十、一、二、三、十、"},{"start":20372.456,"end":20385.701,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十。"},{"start":20401.328,"end":20413.654,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十。"},{"start":20425.499,"end":20448.956,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十。"},{"start":20455.097,"end":20466.603,"text":"審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委"},{"start":20479.497,"end":20496.009,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、二、十、一、"},{"start":20497.163,"end":20505.389,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":20519.701,"end":20527.372,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、"},{"start":20535.151,"end":20557.729,"text":"第十三條之一有一個立法說明第四點,基於對原住民族傳統文化之尊重,原住民使用自製獵槍、自製枝、彈丸與原住民之民俗,即以傳統文化範圍內阻卻違法。"},{"start":20565.251,"end":20592.519,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":20596.121,"end":20622.323,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案案。二、審查委"},{"start":20625.794,"end":20644.059,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡易"},{"start":20651.956,"end":20667.149,"text":"但原住民族基於傳統文化,即以非營利自用類譜野生動物者,我們是要用不在此縣,還是要用不適用之?"},{"start":20674.52,"end":20675.541,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具"},{"start":20698.713,"end":20706.276,"text":"審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具:「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":20719.622,"end":20747.295,"text":"照行政院提案條文通過委員張其祿等提案第五條之一委員陳柏惟等提案第五條之二維持現行法條文第五條之二修正通過增訂第五條之三照行政院提案條文通過委員陳明文等委員陳柏惟等提案第六條之一維持現行法條文委員陳明文等委員蔡易餘等提案第七條維持現行法條文委員陳明文等提案第八條維持現行法條文"},{"start":20749.196,"end":20769.097,"text":"增訂第九條之一修正通過委員陳明明等提案第十二條《維持信訊法條文》第十三條造型正義提案條文通過增訂第十三條之一造型正義提案條文通過補充立法說明。第四點"},{"start":20771.909,"end":20799.665,"text":"第十八條造型正義提案條文通過。第二十條之一造型正義提案條文通過。增訂第二十條之二修正通過補充立法說明。增訂第二十條之三造型正義提案條文通過。委員蔡易餘等提案第二十二條維持現行法條文。第二十五條造型正義提案條文通過。宣討完畢。好請問各位委員照剛才的協商結論通過請問有沒有意義?"},{"start":20803.532,"end":20812.821,"text":"本次會議審查通過之條文、條次引述條文部分文字及相關法制用於授權主席及議事人員整理。"},{"start":20817.743,"end":20826.146,"text":"討論事項第二案槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案案以併案審查完畢。寧據審查報告提報院會討論請問在場委員需不需要經黨團協商。"},{"start":20834.028,"end":20859.033,"text":"需要經黨團協商嗎?請問。 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.149,"end":1886.713,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生、大家好。"},{"start":1898.708,"end":1919.135,"text":"我們現在開始開會這是立法院第10屆第8會期教育及文化委員會的公聽會會議程序那今天在我們教育的現場出現了很多的歧視的問題包含原住民的歧視那大家可以記得新聞上從台中一中的原油會的海報"},{"start":1919.975,"end":1945.916,"text":"用諧音歧視原住民﹚到臺大的言論自由月的歧視性步調﹚再到臺大學生代表選舉的性別歧視言論﹚校園中D卡上隨處都可以看到﹚包含業女當腹羞辱﹚還有課堂上甚至都會討論到臺女不意外等等我們的性別平等教育還有人權教育其實需要徹底的檢討"},{"start":1947.777,"end":1964.536,"text":"根據今天也有到我們現場的同志諮詢熱線進行2020年的臺灣同志學生校園經驗調查LGBT學生普遍在校園裡面感到不安全遭到騷擾攻擊而且不敢通報求助"},{"start":1965.537,"end":1979.104,"text":"調查也發現62.1%的同志學生曾經依偎自己的性別、氣質表現性別認同、性傾向遭遇辱罵、嘲諷、威脅等言語騷擾還有17.8%的曾經遭受肢體騷擾4.3%的曾經遭受肢體攻擊有高達74%的同志學生"},{"start":1991.371,"end":2012.198,"text":"曾經聽過學校教職員發表針對性別氣質的負面言論68.6%的曾經聽過學校的教職員發表恐童的言論遭受言語跟肢體騷擾攻擊的時候只有不到一半的同志學生會向教職員通報"},{"start":2012.998,"end":2036.773,"text":"不通報的主要原因是53.4%的不認為教職員可以有效的處理我想這些都反映了我們雖然有性別平等教育法可是校園中性別平等的教育還有剛剛所講的歧視跟人權的教育其實並沒有落實我去年底就參與的社會救助法的修法"},{"start":2037.273,"end":2057.223,"text":"也發現其實我們也缺乏對貧窮的瞭解導致我們公務體系從基層到高層都使用防弊的思維而不是從權力的保障那校園中如果有家境來自比較不同的貧窮的家庭"},{"start":2058.243,"end":2058.503,"text":"主席"},{"start":2080.441,"end":2080.781,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2105.422,"end":2120.813,"text":"反霸凌、反歧視：人權、性平、貧窮教育的公聽會目標就是希望讓我們更多元兵分生命力無窮的同學們都可以在學校裡面好好的學習現在我來介紹一下與會的委員跟貴賓我們先介紹官員嗎"},{"start":2131.335,"end":2152.954,"text":"我先依到場順序介紹有臺灣同志諮詢熱線協會的理事高志龍還有中華民國全國教育產業總工會的理事長林碩傑全國教師工會總聯合會特教委員會的主任委員鍾振信社區實踐協會的社工馬明毅"},{"start":2159.82,"end":2168.386,"text":"臺灣身心障礙者自立生活聯盟理事長林君傑國教行動聯盟理事長王漢陽性別平等教育協會秘書長韓怡貞國立東華大學民族事務與發展學系副教授陳章培倫"},{"start":2187.121,"end":2209.735,"text":"臺北市兒少代表黃佩琦人生百位文化建構協會共同創辦人吳彥德貴賓的部分有沒有漏掉的有的話我們待會再補介紹還有我們今天的公聽會的列席人員教育部的常務次長林騰嬌次長好"},{"start":2213.097,"end":2237.457,"text":"教育部學生事務及特殊教育司司長吳林輝吳司長衛福部保護服務司科長黃瑞文黃科長衛福部社會救助及社公司科長李碧如科長好衛福部心理健康司科長王鵬軒科長好"},{"start":2240.799,"end":2244.022,"text":"每位貴賓發言時間是7分鐘,在第6分鐘的時候我們會有鈴聲提醒。"},{"start":2257.951,"end":2282.514,"text":"7分鐘結束的時候會有一個結束鈴聲學者專家的發言以簽名先後順序為準現場你們的發言跟書面資料立法院都會做成記錄刊登公報如果有立法委員要意見發表我們會在會議中進行穿插請在場的委員已經來了在前面登記順序在主席臺登記順序"},{"start":2283.895,"end":2308.261,"text":"現在我們是不是先請教育部是我們的主管機關教育部就現行的規定執行狀況相關問題提出說明時間8分鐘再來我們請簽名第一位順序的專家臺灣同志諮詢熱線的代表高理事發言我們介紹一下現場的委員有陳培瑜立委"},{"start":2318.749,"end":2319.291,"text":"教育部林次長發言"},{"start":2324.472,"end":2350.378,"text":"主席、陳委員還有各位女士先生大家好今天應邀列席大院召開教育及文化委員會．如何讓每個人在臺灣有尊嚴的生活．反霸凌、反歧視．人權、性平．貧窮教育公聽會．並得聆聽各位委員、各位先進．專家、學者的著見．自感榮幸本部就委員所提議題．進行檢要報告．進行各位委員指證與支持"},{"start":2351.378,"end":2365.729,"text":"首先第一部分針對推動相關措施促進平等及消米歧視部分教育部訂定人權及公民教育促進方案落實學校友善校園人權環境指標並嚴定"},{"start":2367.951,"end":2393.841,"text":"推動國際人權公約實踐方案﹚持續人權教育及推廣﹚同時也積極落實性別平等教育法﹚啟發學生覺察性別權利﹚不平等之各項議題﹚揚起性別偏見﹚肯認性別多樣性﹚並廣用多元媒體宣導性平教育此外﹚推動反霸凌措施﹚訂定每學期勘學第一週為友善校園週"},{"start":2394.921,"end":2400.211,"text":"促進學校重視擴張多元申請管道如1953免付會專線、網路留言板"},{"start":2403.976,"end":2430.293,"text":"不署長民意信箱等第二部分針對改善不利處境學生校園處境之具體作為部分首先在消米因性別之不平等與歧視部分設置性別平等教育委員會定定年度工作計畫將認識性別多元性霸凌防治列為重點工作降低性別刻板化印象及歧視情形此"},{"start":2430.973,"end":2454.295,"text":"同時補助地方政務辦理老舊廁所整修工程計畫鼓勵學校依性別友善廁所設置指引設置性別友善廁所同時訂定大專校院及教育部主管高級中等學校學生入住宿舍性別友善處理原則建置性別友善宿舍空間"},{"start":2455.612,"end":2464.732,"text":"及友善宿舍文化 啟動友善提供多元生理用品計畫 定點設置提供學生來取用"},{"start":2466.155,"end":2488.987,"text":"在推動優質適性特殊教育環境方面包含落實特殊教育法明定不得有歧視之對待成立特殊教育推行委員會重整資源訂定第二期特殊教育忠誠計畫同時也出版CRPD宣導手冊提升教育人員資能"},{"start":2489.867,"end":2505.969,"text":"以及舉辦身心障礙夏令營鼓勵身心障礙學生參與及相互支持在推動全民原教協助學校提升族群共同意識方面包含"},{"start":2507.085,"end":2534.138,"text":"行文各校重申禁止一切形式之種族歧視修正友善校園計劃增列普及推動援助民族教育及多元文化教育之項目嚴定援助民族及多元文化教育相關案例提供教師引導學生學習同時與園民會合作補助地方政府援助民族教育資源中心辦理相關主題活動第三部分針對"},{"start":2535.6,"end":2543.061,"text":"推動多元發展、適性之全人教育模式方面首先在推動性別平等教育方面"},{"start":2544.076,"end":2572.548,"text":"教育部將開學後第一週定為校園友善週宣導多元性別議題同時依據十二年國民基本教育課程綱要將性別平等教育納入課程中實施大專校園則鼓勵積極開設課程及辦理活動同時委託國立教育廣播電台自播性別平等Easy Go節目擴展性別平等教育之社會宣導面向"},{"start":2574.064,"end":2593.851,"text":"在保障身心障礙學生發展方面,擬定十二年國民基本教育特殊教育課程實施規範,以因應特殊教育學生之教育需求,同時辦理教職員及家長正能研習,提升相關人員之多元融合平等資能,在建構"},{"start":2595.95,"end":2611.417,"text":"原住民學生安心學習環境方面包括提供原住民優先就讀公立幼兒園及非營利幼兒園之機會協助地方政府與原住民族地區增設公立幼兒園班"},{"start":2612.037,"end":2638.245,"text":"及社區部落互助教保服務中心另外對於國中小則透過課程發展為基礎結合部落齊老智慧將在地部落元素融入教學已經合訂了15所學校辦理中小學援助民族文化學習場域計畫也補助144所大專校院成立援助民族學生資源中心"},{"start":2639.737,"end":2662.21,"text":"並透過四區六校區域援資中心提供諮詢及支援的分享同時保障原住民學生升學權益﹐代理原住民公費留學考試﹐鼓勵原住民族青年參與國際交流﹐促進原住民族青年職涯發展﹐耕蓄培訓原住民族多元人才"},{"start":2664.071,"end":2688.701,"text":"第四個部分,減少學生經濟壓力﹖保障學生受教權益方面﹖包括大專校院部分﹖針對弱勢學生提供學雜費結免﹖助學金及就學貸款等措施﹖高中職以下部分﹖亦定有各項專案補助計畫﹖提供各類獎助學金﹖教育儲蓄戶、就學券募﹖"},{"start":2689.361,"end":2695.33,"text":"就學貸款優惠、午餐補助、學雜費減免等機制以促進教育機會之均等"},{"start":2696.633,"end":2722.267,"text":"以上針對本日的議題的部分做以上的一個說明而後教育部也會將持續推動人權、性別平等、族群、多元文化、融合教育等各項權利措施以教育作為實現安全、溫馨、平等與尊重的友善校園感謝各位的一個聆聽謝謝大家"},{"start":2724.531,"end":2726.273,"text":"臺灣同志諮詢熱線協會高智榮理事"},{"start":2741.009,"end":2743.771,"text":"臺灣在2004年的時候就已經通過《性別平等教育法》了"},{"start":2763.42,"end":2778.003,"text":"我們也推行了很多年我們有個很健全的法制的基礎但是事實上將近20年的性別平等教育的推廣之下我們的同志的LGBTQ plus學生仍然面臨了很多的困境所以就像剛剛范雲委員前面講到的我們協會在2020年做了一個我們同志學生的校園處境調查"},{"start":2784.665,"end":2807.082,"text":"分別調查了大概一千兩百位從國中一路到五專專一到專三的學生的校園處境跟困境那我們的報告的內容大概主要有幾個重點那其中把它先分成兩個第一個就是在我們校園裡面的性別偏見的言論跟騷擾事實上還是非常普遍的存在著而且呢這些騷擾存在的"},{"start":2807.802,"end":2807.962,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":2834.262,"end":2847.748,"text":"有62.1的學生表示說：他們自己的性形象：性別認同：跟性別氣質的表現：曾經遭受到語言的騷擾：包含了比如說羞辱：辱罵：或者是嘲諷跟威脅當然在臺灣的話：我們目前的騷擾的樣貌：是以言語騷擾為主像我們的受訪裡面：他們有將近53.2的人曾經遭受到語言騷擾：就是將近一半以上"},{"start":2861.953,"end":2883.912,"text":"有遭受肢體騷擾的也不算太低,大概14.7%,那到直接的攻擊的話有4%那主要的話都是因為我們的LGBT學生的性別氣質的表現,因為這是一個外顯的氣質,比較容易被觀察跟看到但是當然還是會有人也可能會因為他的性傾向或是他的單純的性別的身份而就會受到相關的騷擾"},{"start":2885.053,"end":2895.082,"text":"我們也有很多的學生有表示到說在這樣騷擾很廣泛的狀況下那教職員通常會做些什麼呢那有將近超過三分之一的教職員在場"},{"start":2896.857,"end":2898.158,"text":"甚至有三分之二的學生曾經指出"},{"start":2923.8,"end":2924.46,"text":"我們實際上可以發現說對於同志學生來說"},{"start":2941.405,"end":2970.665,"text":"相關的一些騷擾或是負相的言論：不只來自於同學之間的打鬧：甚至是很多的時候是教職員或是校師長：他們本身相關的言論也並沒有這麼的平等跟友善：所以校園對於很多的同志學生來講：並不是一個可以感受到安全的地方：所以我們有將近3成5的孩子表示說：他們會因為自己的性形象而在學校認為是不安全的：而有24.4的學生會認為說：他們的性別其實在學校感受到不安全"},{"start":2971.866,"end":2986.662,"text":"所以我們可以發現說這些校園的困境希望大家特別注意的是除了像同性戀雙性戀的學生他們可能如果沒有特別的表達自己性傾向是並不會這麼容易被發現的可是如果今天是跨性別的"},{"start":2987.342,"end":3015.14,"text":"學生因為他們可能在一些性別的表現他們可能會希望有一些相關的打扮可以符合他自己的性別的認同所以跨性別的學生在學校相關的處境是會更為嚴苛身心的壓力也會是更為大所以很多的跨性別學生會有更高比例的他們沒有辦法使用符合他們性別認同的廁所或更衣室或是在校園裡面因為性別二分的空間他們不敢去使用相關的空間甚至會因此而缺課或甚至是缺席"},{"start":3020.181,"end":3037.286,"text":"同志學生在普遍遭受騷擾的狀況下,卻不敢通報。雖然說性平等教育法已經規範了校園系統要能夠有效處理校園騷擾和性霸凌的問題,但是我們有將近一半的學生是不敢跟教職人通報的,主要的原因是他們認為說"},{"start":3039.748,"end":3054.983,"text":"學校的老師跟教職員是沒有辦法有效處理這樣子霸凌跟騷擾的事件然後第二個原因是他們認為說告訴教職員的話他們反而會造成他們身心額外的負擔然後再來第三個是因為如果告訴教職員他們很擔心會有出櫃的風險"},{"start":3057.223,"end":3085.355,"text":"所以我們就可以知道的是說在這樣子在同志學生的校園資源不足而且支持也不足的狀況下面我們有相關的一些建議跟結論那我們的建議大概有幾個第一個是我們仍然是希望說教育部也可以有相關的經費去調查我們全國的同志學生的實際的校園處境因為我們知道雖然說有好的法源依據但是在落實上面可以從我們的"},{"start":3086.255,"end":3086.455,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":3119.54,"end":3143.084,"text":"希望學校也能有政策的鼓勵和保障校內的學生成立相關的性別平等的甚至是同志的社團希望可以規劃和督促高中子以下學生的校園的性霸凌的實際政策執行狀況和作為最後想要稍微提醒跟這次的修法有關的是因為我們知道這次有想要修改關於服儀規定的一些法制化的內容"},{"start":3143.484,"end":3143.564,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":3160.978,"end":3161.519,"text":"立法委員陳培宇"},{"start":3180.408,"end":3181.608,"text":"主席、社長、各位縣長、縣長、縣長、縣長、縣長、縣長、縣長、縣長、縣長、縣長、縣長、縣長、縣長、縣長、縣長、縣長、縣長、縣長、縣長、縣長、"},{"start":3210.225,"end":3210.245,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3226.522,"end":3253.216,"text":"其實它的優點蠻多啦那在這邊時間不過也不便於贅述啦那這個因為對學生不當管教的部分其實這幾年來也產生了很多的一些紛紛擾擾所以我們期盼就是說透過各級學校都設立專責的單位或是專人來負責學校的管教的這個區塊那甚至教育部也我們也建議教育部也設立人才庫專門負責管教學生管教的這個部分"},{"start":3256.278,"end":3276.083,"text":"各學校在聘請人員或單位負責學生管教的部分也希望他們全部外聘至教育部的人才庫來做學生的管教避免將來還有發生教師對學生不利或不當管教的事件發生這是我們的強烈建議"},{"start":3277.318,"end":3300.572,"text":"接下來是針對今天：如何讓每個人在臺灣有尊嚴的生活．公聽會．全國教育產業總共會．因為時間有限．針對一些不利處境群體．包括身心障礙．原住民．偏僻地區．等做一些建議跟發言．其他部分可能時間也是有限．可能以後再來跟大家補充報告"},{"start":3303.49,"end":3304.03,"text":"身心障礙"},{"start":3320.134,"end":3326.038,"text":"公立學校教職員往生後,子女可否領取所謂的遺屬金?如果沒有領取遺屬金,就是所謂的遺屬年金。有一個規定,必須身心障礙且不具工作能力。"},{"start":3342.37,"end":3359.524,"text":"在同一個條款裡面他有明定的規範就是說必須是重度身心障礙而且不具工作能力另外就是他每年度的所得沒有超過所謂的基本工資這個部分我們發現就是說"},{"start":3362.534,"end":3362.574,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":3383.217,"end":3407.854,"text":"原因是什麼呢一般來講那中度身心障礙大概就是幾乎都是不具工作能力了那更不用說他們的每個月所得會超過所謂的基本工資所以這個部分我們期盼能夠做一些改變對身心障礙者一些比較公平的對待尤其是對中度身心障礙者那如果不具這個工作能力那另外就是說他"},{"start":3408.715,"end":3413.683,"text":"每個月的所得也沒有超越所謂的基本工資的時候也能夠具備這個45條所講的這個遺屬年金的領取資格"},{"start":3419.748,"end":3443.426,"text":"如果說大院將來在修正這個部分的時候是讓他領取二分之一、四分之一其實這個部分我們是都沒有意見其實還有待討論因為這個部分對一個身心障礙者來講我們覺得的確是有待強化的地方因為你重度身心障礙他可能根本就不具工作能力可是中度身心障礙也很多不具工作能力可是這個部分"},{"start":3444.167,"end":3444.187,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3468.464,"end":3468.884,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":3497.629,"end":3524.299,"text":"這個尤其是原住民重點學校他們的原住民級的教師比例都不夠那他只好騙代理教師那久而久之他們代理教師的比例就一直都降不下來其實我們對於我們覺得對於這些地區尤其是花蓮地區臺東地區的原住民的孩子其實這樣不公平了你定一個東西在那邊是很難實現很難落實的那造成他們所享有的教育一直是不公平的狀態"},{"start":3525.359,"end":3525.599,"text":"文化委員會主席"},{"start":3543.229,"end":3556.179,"text":"另外一個就是在花蓮地區或者是一些縣市的話他們所謂的本土語言可是他們是原住民地區或是原住民重點學校問題是他們的本土語言只開閩南語課程"},{"start":3558.903,"end":3561.984,"text":"教育部的志願服務偏遠地區學校校長及教師特別獎勵辦法第7條"},{"start":3576.032,"end":3576.092,"text":"主席"},{"start":3607.89,"end":3608.27,"text":"陳培余 立法委員"},{"start":3627.831,"end":3629.992,"text":"中正信 全教工種聯合會請準備"},{"start":3644.522,"end":3668.013,"text":"其實事實上從我2月遞補到立法院之後因為剛好碰到了特教法的大修那這個大修就讓我們有機會去盤點非常多特教現場資源的不足的問題那通常是在修完母法之後相關的執法要進行其實耗日廢時但是在這個曠日廢時的修執法的過程當中我們辦公室非常積極參與所有可以參與的執法"},{"start":3669.394,"end":3685.128,"text":"討論會議"},{"start":3685.608,"end":3685.628,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3705.678,"end":3705.698,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3722.122,"end":3722.142,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3752.742,"end":3779.636,"text":"回到學校裡頭特教助理員的議題最近這幾個月也非常多特教助理員來跟我們反映目前大部分有的狀況是薪資待遇很不好而且工作強度太高時數太多現場的人根本就不夠因此這個狀況就導致很多人不願意去擔任特教助理員大家可以想像特教老師他都已經花了非常多時間在協助非常多孩子的狀況如果又沒有助理員的協助"},{"start":3782.546,"end":3809.157,"text":"很多孩子在現場的狀況是沒有辦法及時獲得解決所以關於特教助理員的部分我們確實也花了很多力氣在跟國教署溝通我們希望能夠持續協助改善特教助理員因為大家可以想像特教助理員的情況獲得改善孩子們在現場的情況才可以獲得支持那最後關於特教老師的部分我要講的是特教老師的薪水跟他們的工作時數他又牽扯到跟地方政府的預算有關目前我們知道幾個狀況例如說"},{"start":3810.638,"end":3831.977,"text":"有些學校有特教學生但是卻沒有特教老師那可能也怪不了縣市政府因為可能根本沒有老師願意去應徵或者是他拿著特教老師的資格證照但是他卻寧願去擔任非特教班的老師就是因為特教班的工作量太大特教助理員又不夠孩子們的需求又變多相關經費又不足導致一個惡性循環的狀況"},{"start":3833.318,"end":3850.579,"text":"還有我們看見就是可能還有現場的特教老師是用所謂待課老師也就是終點老師的名義聘進來那大家可以想像待課老師他可能就是待幾節課他就下班他就離開了可是很多特教生的狀況他可能不是在那個老師到校幾個小時內可以獲得解決"},{"start":3852.381,"end":3852.401,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3871.536,"end":3898.888,"text":"有這麼多的情況那過去我們辦公室真的花了很多力氣在質詢公聽會、協調會、審查預算用各種各樣的方法希望跟國教署也希望從國教署這邊積極讓地方政府知道特教生的狀況真的越來越嚴重需要大家共同的關心那其實已經有非常非常多包含範圍委員有提到過非常多特教生的比例不斷的上升這個情況下國教署跟教育部真的要積極的去思考預算的部分如何增加"},{"start":3899.528,"end":3899.868,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":3921.949,"end":3921.969,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3946.508,"end":3970.38,"text":"上面寫的就是父跟母這樣的欄位我要講的是光是這個小事其實就可以看出國教系統並沒有準備好迎接這一千多個孩子或是接下來會有更多的孩子那在國教系統裡面有非常多非常根深蒂固然後隱而未現的甚至我們沒有努力去盤點跟追查其實是看不出來其實那就是隱含的歧視所以我們之前也積極的拜託教育部我記得有跟部長對話過"},{"start":3971.5,"end":3978.76,"text":"光是這樣的表格,國教現場裡面到底還有哪些東西必須要去符合未來這些家庭跟孩子們的需求?"},{"start":3980.069,"end":3986.994,"text":"資料表真的只是其中的一小部分更不要講剛剛還有專家講到關於制服的問題關於學校裡面硬體設備的問題所以我要講的是拜託國教系統要積極在這件事情上積極處理因為從5月通過相關收養的規定之後我相信會有更多的小孩跟家庭要面臨這個問題喔好那最後一個還有一點時間我要講的是大家都知道政治正確這件事情是孩子們現在都會掛在嘴巴上的"},{"start":4006.127,"end":4031.295,"text":"但是我們看到非常多 剛剛張偉念到非常多案例我們都認為那些孩子精確的知道所謂的反政治正確是什麼所以他們可以講出非常精確的歧視性字眼其實這也是我自己身為基層教育工作者我最擔心的也就是孩子們學會了這些我們認為是政治正確的語言之後他們卻拿來反用用來做出最具歧視力量而且可能巨巨堅固的這種語言"},{"start":4033.015,"end":4033.215,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":4057.578,"end":4057.698,"text":"主席"},{"start":4081.526,"end":4081.706,"text":"馬明義市區實踐協會代表"},{"start":4110.843,"end":4138.588,"text":"委員還有我們的次長還有在座的各位先進我是那個全國教師公會總聯合會的特教委員會的主委總任姓那因為我自己本身也是一個第一線的特教老師啦那跟針對這個反歧視的議題其實我自己在教學現場是有一些感受的啦因為像比較早期的時候我們在特教班的時候你知道學校是有所謂的集中式特教班跟所謂資源班部分類資源班的部分"},{"start":4139.228,"end":4153.957,"text":"其實很多時候像早期的時候會有些小朋友會喜歡開玩笑的去說可能對於在志願班上課的小朋友就說你是志願回收班的小朋友他們認為他們很幽默在開玩笑其實這就是一種什麼語言上面的一些歧視所以現在很多學校"},{"start":4154.537,"end":4169.296,"text":"我必須要講部份學校都為了這個他可能把名稱改成學習中心或是改成所謂的潛能班、潛能開發班這樣的方式那其實你也可以看得到在現場很多的老師也都都會去意識到這樣的問題去協助做這些解決所以其實在"},{"start":4169.776,"end":4191.47,"text":"在我們的教育現場裡面其實大部分的老師都是非常努力的想要去解決一些相關的歧視的問題那我們也在此要先肯定一下就是說剛才委員在一開始就有提到說其實我們在解決這些反歧視問題的時候我們不能只從一些防弊的思維或是針對一些特定的對象去執行因為我們要知道就是說在整體的考量上面像我們今天的這個主題裡面"},{"start":4193.211,"end":4216.457,"text":"整體來講其實它不會是單一的一個議題像剛才有提到原住民的議題有提到身心障礙者的議題甚至有提到貧窮教育的一個問題那事實上在我們現場裡面像我們自己教的小孩子裡面他可能同時會具備了他有身心障礙者的身份那他可能家境是相對比較弱勢的甚至於他還具有原住民的身份他可能有多重身份的融合絕對不是從單一一個角度去看"},{"start":4217.197,"end":4245.824,"text":"對於這樣的孩子來講他需要的資源是非常的廣泛的絕對不是單一一個說我們針對原民的問題去處理就好或針對身心障礙者的問題去處理就好我們可能要從這個整體的方面去看然後我們的資源是不是足夠的然後另外一個部分就是說其實在我們的這個憲法裡面也提到了我們在我們資料裡面都有提到其實我們都是先平等再後自由但是我們常常忘記我們在第一線的現場的時候我們常常追求只有公平"},{"start":4246.644,"end":4246.664,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4271.824,"end":4282.633,"text":"陳佩玉委員也有提到一些第一線特教的一個問題那作為一個第一線的特教老師我也必須要講就是說在一些相關的待遇跟資源上面的的確確會對於特教老師來講會比較辛苦一點點就是說像我們最近我們工會在跟"},{"start":4288.157,"end":4299.765,"text":"國教署和教育部有討論一個關於前一陣子大家應該都有看到特教家級的一個問題我們也很感謝林次長也都有幫我們做一些協調但是我不需要講了像這個議題是我們大概在110年開始就持續在溝通當中"},{"start":4305.668,"end":4327.602,"text":"比較可惜一點點是說今年已經快邁入第三個年頭了但這件事情似乎還沒有一個最終的決定定案那這個問題出現在哪裡其實我不知道大家了不了解這個問題是在於說像加級這件事情它是一個職務加級但我們現場的特教老師卻會因為他的授課結束他依據法定授課結束他還得被扣掉他的特教加級"},{"start":4328.562,"end":4352.771,"text":"其實像剛剛培宇委員提到的部分就是說為什麼會有一些老師他即使有特教證他也最後還是轉任補教的原因就在於這裡其實他的待遇上面其實並沒有非常的平均那我覺得這個部分是我們持續要去思考的一個點就像前陣子有提到一個特教家籍已經拖三十幾年通通都沒有動過那這也是一個非常讓人家覺得不太可思議的一個地方然後"},{"start":4354.091,"end":4377.055,"text":"另外一個部分就是剛有提到助理員的部分其實我們要思考一點我們在融合教育的狀況下我們希望現在很多身心障礙孩子可以在一般的教學環境裡面受教育那助理員就是一個很重要的工作可是我不知道大家知不知道我們的所有助理員領導的都是最低的時薪然後在教學現場的時候就剛才特別提到了不要用防弊思維來看的原因是因為即使有核定給你助理員了"},{"start":4378.276,"end":4398.775,"text":"臺灣現實增幅端有可能因為財政的問題他們思考的點是說他為了怕你說你有沒有福報實數所以他是用實數和給你所以我們會出現一種很弔詭的狀況這個孩子可能在學校即使是低年級他一天起碼有四個小時在學校他最後有可能和給你兩個小時或三個小時的助理員那我們先想問的是說難道這個孩子只有在"},{"start":4399.675,"end":4426.917,"text":"這兩個或三個小時裡面他才會有學習的問題嗎他可能需要比較長時間的我覺得應該要採取一個彼此信任的態度因為我們常常在講說我們跟教育主管機關應該是一個老師跟教育主管機關應該彼此一個夥伴互相支持的關係但是如果我們沒有彼此的一個欠缺一個基礎的信任度而是採取防弊的思維的話那這個東西其實很難成功因為我們的資源常常就是在檢核說你有沒有重點放在你有沒有濫用"},{"start":4427.95,"end":4446.312,"text":"我覺得應該放在是說這個孩子到底需要什麼因為說實話今天申請助理員對於現場的老師來講他並不叫做比較輕鬆喔因為他是需要去協助助理員要設計相關的協助的方案甚至於他的經費和消費都是由學校老師要來承擔所以老師絕對不會說是為了要說"},{"start":4448.234,"end":4448.254,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4471.056,"end":4486.642,"text":"另外一個部分是我們想要提到的是說不管今天提到的任何一個反歧視、人權、性平或貧窮教育等等的這些議題我覺得我們常常會留意一個思維就是說當我們有什麼樣議題出現的時候我們就一定要在教育局現場"},{"start":4487.182,"end":4512.683,"text":"不斷不斷的去加強所謂的嚴習宣導我絕對不反對這個東西因為這個是智能提升沒有問題但除了這個之外呢我們有沒有思考過我們實際上投入在現場的資源有多少如同剛才提到的如果我們有一些我們要反霸凌的問題可是現在在教學現場裡面我們的校安人力其實是相對缺乏的所以當處理到一些霸凌問題的時候你要想整個學校就是這麼多人"},{"start":4513.191,"end":4513.311,"text":"主席"},{"start":4540.102,"end":4540.162,"text":"馬明義 陳靜敏"},{"start":4571.444,"end":4592.963,"text":"委員 主席 委員 各位先進 大家早安我是臺灣社區實踐協會的社工馬明毅那我們單位大家可能比較陌生我們其實在萬華陪伴了許多弱勢跟貧窮狀態的兒童已經長達15年我們在社區裡面陪他們一起長大所以今天比較想要分享的是那在這一群貧窮經驗的孩子裡面他們面對到什麼樣的狀況然後他們發生什麼樣的事情"},{"start":4593.724,"end":4594.905,"text":"提綱三提綱三提綱三"},{"start":4610.02,"end":4610.92,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":4636.453,"end":4660.848,"text":"在這些不管是家庭資源或心理健康上的不利影響之下它其實最後都有可能會造成其實在兒童在未來成長或發展上的未來的能力或是出入是有很多的限制的那其實大家都一直講說教育是翻轉他們生命的最大的關鍵那所以其實在研究裡面有說教育跟發展是很大的機會不過當他們進到學校的時候我們卻也會發現"},{"start":4661.989,"end":4662.089,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":4682.777,"end":4709.094,"text":"家庭的孩子在文化上的弱勢就是一個很明顯的東西所以剛剛有提到剛剛前一位先進有提到說在學校裡面親師的溝通是重要的但許多新住民的家長是很難有辦法有順暢跟家長去做溝通那我們在學校裡面卻沒有一個相對應的機制可以讓家長跟孩子跟老師有一個完善的溝通的狀況之下我們要怎麼確保這孩子在學校可以有好的教育取得跟教育成就呢"},{"start":4709.614,"end":4709.914,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":4734.614,"end":4756.633,"text":"曾經有服務一個少年他徵選上了臺北市的二少代表然後呢結果他進去了他過兩個禮拜就跟我們說他要退出為什麼在很多研究裡面都指著一件事情是他們進去之後發現欸第一個我沒有跟大家有共同的語言我沒有相對應的一些生活習慣脈絡或是有一些相對應的特長我在裡面我逮捕下去我只好離開好像我們開放了很多門路但是這些人卻進不去"},{"start":4757.714,"end":4779.574,"text":"第二是在升學的制度上雖然我們好像有特殊選材有各種多元的升學方法但是這些特殊選材你把資料全部翻開之後他除了可以勾出那個特殊資歷的那一格之外他又準備的是各種國際競賽、國內外競賽然後各種特殊表現才藝就是非常優秀的一些證明然後每個學校可能一個系就取一個"},{"start":4780.575,"end":4806.113,"text":"哇塞!我們的孩子要怎麼樣跟這些就是有資源然後去外面比賽的人去做競爭然後我們卻說我們幫他們開了很多管道那在這樣的一個整體狀況之下其實就會發現說那這些孩子他們平常在學校如果真的受挫了然後我們好像看到了既有管道也拿不到的時候要怎麼辦然後學校老師都會說那我們希望他們可以有更多的能動性去做學習啊那其實在國內外有很多研究會"},{"start":4808.271,"end":4808.531,"text":"臺灣現行教育制度對經濟弱勢者來說"},{"start":4823.251,"end":4823.471,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":4844.403,"end":4863.904,"text":"然後我們其實遇到蠻多案例是這些孩子他們等到他們成年或家裡只要脫離社會福利身份的時候雖然一脫離然後弟弟妹妹或他自己本身就沒有馬上可以獲得接下來持續擁有學渣費減免的資源然後他們就會就學醫院會大幅降低然後我們還有蠻多的孩子是處於那種貧窮線之上"},{"start":4866.246,"end":4866.266,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4887.797,"end":4916.554,"text":"其實在現在學校現行上看到比較多可能給予一些技能或興趣才藝探索的機會都比較多是在給關懷學生那學校的第一線的我遇到的一些工作人員會提到尤其是在中錯或中途離校之餘的孩子更容易遇到希望他們在這邊可以有更多的動力持續下去但是這些經濟弱勢的孩子或是相對弱勢的孩子他們在學校得不到學習成就的時候他們卻沒有辦法獲得這樣子的資源然後最後就會形成一個狀況是他們很多人就會不上不下的"},{"start":4917.514,"end":4933.465,"text":"其實我們看國外的許多案例會發現在國外的所謂的課後照顧他們其實更多強調的是怎麼樣讓人可以成為一個更好的人不管是在美國、日本、法國、英國或是德國其實都有像這樣的案例然後他其實就是符合CRC"},{"start":4934.426,"end":4934.446,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4949.244,"end":4949.264,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4977.884,"end":4978.104,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5001.75,"end":5016.925,"text":"先進說的我們不用再做更多的所謂的教育訓練或是把它放入課程我覺得更多的是我們在學校教育中很難去告訴別人我們要如何維生我們的課程永遠都在教你要怎麼樣致富你要怎麼理財你要怎麼樣去看市場經濟但是"},{"start":5019.167,"end":5041.436,"text":"如果我們今天在學校可以教一個人他如何在社會中維生怎麼去當一個好勞工怎麼樣可以好好的生活如何向政府求助這些事情就會變得很正常他就不再是標籤而是每個人都可以擁有一個氏族生活的權利然後每個人得到的他就是國家的幫助而不是所謂的施捨那老師們的言語跟眼光也都可能有機會可以改變"},{"start":5042.997,"end":5050.963,"text":"最後想要提到說其實真的很期待每個孩子的差異都可以在學校是有機會被看見的這樣還有真的翻轉的可能性 謝謝"},{"start":5053.595,"end":5054.316,"text":"臺灣聲音障礙自立生活聯盟理事長"},{"start":5079.639,"end":5108.44,"text":"好 謝謝主席那謝謝各位謝謝各位專家先進大家好非常感謝大家今天到立法院來參加這樣子重要的公聽會那我想今天大家聚集在這裡主要是要關懷每一個人的權益確保每一位臺灣人民都能夠擁有平等而且對等尊嚴的生活更重要的我們期待透過我們這樣子的一個努力能夠讓每一個人都能夠追求這樣子的一個目標"},{"start":5109.221,"end":5135.88,"text":"但是每個人因為生活背景：性別角色：人生發展階段的一個不同：這樣子不同的面貌情況之下：會呈現出來獨特的現象那這也因為歷史環境、教育政策：或者是社會觀念等等讓國家對人民：或者是某些個人的行為：會對我們不利處境的群體產生差別待遇而造成現在的貧富差距越來越大"},{"start":5136.741,"end":5165.843,"text":"性別刻板的印象：或者是影響身心障礙者的就業機會不同族群的基本權益等等那這些挑戰都是我們共同需要正視而且努力解決的那雖然說憲法第7條保障了人民的平等權禁止任何形式的差別待遇但是在現實生活中這種理念實在難以完全實現就以校園為例我自己本身也是大學教授所以在大學環境的校園當中"},{"start":5166.604,"end":5190.151,"text":"多元族群身份的同學：在校園中所遭受的霸凌跟歧視：這個時有所聞：特別是剛剛我們臺灣同志諮詢熱線協會的高志榮理事：就分享了最新的調查數據：60%以上的多元性別族群學生在校園中受到了這樣子不公平的一個對待："},{"start":5190.911,"end":5205.14,"text":"我相信這不僅僅是影響學生的學業生活心理健康更是侵犯了他們的就學權所以校園中的歧視事件只是眾多案件之一很難相信今年我們的頂尖大學"},{"start":5206.181,"end":5222.996,"text":"學生的自治會的選舉政見﹚也會打打拉拉的出現這些性別歧視的政策﹚而高中校園舉辦的園遊會﹚也會有這樣不雅的諧音、稱呼、影射原住民族群﹚這一些案例我都只能說其實只是冰山的一角﹚"},{"start":5223.476,"end":5244.274,"text":"透過今天能夠把它曝露出來更凸顯立法委員有責任來強化教育場域更具體的措施或更積極的作為來促進平等消弭來自私人集體跟結構性的歧視因為我們相信透過教育是實現社會正義的一個很重要的機制"},{"start":5245.715,"end":5259.536,"text":"除了在教育立場身為護理師的我更能夠明顯感受性別比例女性多於男性非常多的這樣子的一個職場存在著性別歧視跟霸凌"},{"start":5260.618,"end":5275.365,"text":"譬如說我們常常在職場裡面就發現年輕的男護理師被學姊摸臀或者是開玩笑那更多的就是男醫師在這個手術室裡面對女護理師"},{"start":5276.806,"end":5277.026,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":5304.165,"end":5319.076,"text":"人生這當然是其一因為大家知道護理大概就是鐵飯碗現在到處搶人但是更重要的護理師其實是健康照護團隊中人數最多的專業人員所以在護理教育中我們特別關注的是個案的所謂的"},{"start":5319.676,"end":5338.472,"text":"Social determinants of health就是由健康的社會決定因素因為護理師才是24小時在BestSide最了解個案的需求那我們相信我們最有更強大的一個力量可以直接採取行動來消弭健康照護中的結構性的歧視"},{"start":5339.913,"end":5342.756,"text":"國際護理協會發展立場聲明,提到了要確保健康平等,就是確保每一個人在他不論是誰住在哪裡,什麼樣子的職業都應該享有健康的權利。剛剛大家提到身心障礙者,他其實不論是在相關的求學或者是接受健康照護上,"},{"start":5361.835,"end":5391.29,"text":"其實都有受到不平等的一個待遇那這一場立場聲明也概述了不平等和歧視怎麼樣影響全民的健康特別是在過去四年因為全球的疫情就曝露出來原本就已經存在的健康不平等我們發現他的健康照護的可敬性跟關鍵健康照護的成效指標包括Primary Health Care我們提到的Universal Health Coverage這些不平等"},{"start":5392.311,"end":5417.27,"text":"狀況其實是日益加劇許多的研究結果也顯示疫情加重了這樣子的一個健康不平等譬如說老年人特定族群身心障礙人士以及社經地位比較弱勢的個案在疫情下他的死亡率是比較高的另外聯合國跟世界衛生組織也報告指出COVID-19全球疫情公開揭示了"},{"start":5417.91,"end":5417.93,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5433.812,"end":5450.792,"text":"我們對這樣的不平等歧視除了覺得它影響了工作生活更可能影響到了一個健康所以我們有責任透過政策來具體改善教育現場不利族群群體的校園處境"},{"start":5452.333,"end":5467.481,"text":"聯合國2030年的永續發展目標呼籲打造人人都能夠享有的平等權利的環境它不應該因為經濟、年齡、性別、身心狀況、族群或者這是宗教而受到差別待遇而我們國際護理協會也指出"},{"start":5468.181,"end":5491.073,"text":"護理師就有這樣子的一個權益專業的責任來倡議公平跟社會正義那這也是為什麼我今天要參與這樣子的一個公聽會那也希望透過今天公聽會的主題能夠收集各位學者專家的一個意見那也讓未來我們在相關的政策制定像是教育基本法、人權教育法、性平等教育法"},{"start":5493.294,"end":5494.895,"text":"：立法院第10 屆第8會期教育及文化委員會．反歧視：反歧視"},{"start":5511.28,"end":5532.246,"text":"謝謝金銘委員從護理界的老師出發看到性別歧視、貧窮還有健康的不平等那因為我有個事情必須離開半小時那謝謝錢金銘委員會代理我主持半個鐘頭那他也是我們教育文化委員會非常關心弱勢跟性別相關的議題那下一位請林君傑理事長發言可以在座位上發言謝謝"},{"start":5535.087,"end":5540.669,"text":"好,非常謝謝委員的邀請我們是臺灣性性障礙者自立生活聯盟是由障礙者自己各個不同障礙類別的障礙者自己所組成的一個團體那其實在發表我的分享之前我其實這邊也要提一下我們推動很多很多的相關的人權或者是反歧視的部分必須要從各個部會跟單位做起那其實立法院的無障礙也是我們非常關切的像我今天其實應該"},{"start":5564.236,"end":5566.799,"text":"真正來講應該可以要跟大家一樣在講台上好好的講但我現在比較沒有一個講台無障礙的部分所以我必須在自己的桌邊講所以明年呢會希望各個因為今天也蠻多委員來還有相關的工作人員來我們也想要宣導就是障礙者能夠平等的參與在整個社會裡面"},{"start":5583.215,"end":5589.818,"text":"相關的無障礙措施很重要除了我需要無障礙的空間降台之外還有的是聽障者也需要聽到或手語翻譯等等的只要是公開的場合或一些這樣的一個聚集的地方都應該要有這樣的措施所以立法院未來的經費編列或者是相關的應該也要考到這個部分"},{"start":5605.546,"end":5607.127,"text":"好那今天針對這個議題我要分三個部分來講就是其實在我們臺灣2014年的那個的時候已經通過身心障礙者權利公約然後在這邊也要特別謝謝范委員這邊能夠就是在"},{"start":5623.66,"end":5623.76,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":5639.734,"end":5639.914,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5659.315,"end":5664.881,"text":"教育也就是本身的意識提升開始做起那從主管機關教育部我們常常也會有一些連結或者是溝通那一直到相關的教職人員專業人員或者是相關委員會的委員我覺得"},{"start":5674.512,"end":5683.297,"text":"在針對意識提升部分可能要更符合CRPD的核心精神甚至其他的公立的精神的概念因為在我們的現場服務提供很多障礙者或者是家庭要得到一些服務或措施的時候會遇到很多的阻礙或者是認知不足"},{"start":5692.081,"end":5692.101,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5721.941,"end":5726.124,"text":"另外的推脫或誤解說你其實應該可以自己來但從我們專業的角度看他已經其實已經是氣切的障礙者了而且他是一個嚴重的肌萎症的障礙者那為什麼在IEP的會議上面並沒有針對他這個障礙特性而去給適應適當的一個回應跟那個支持所以造成我們要非常的困難的去輾轉用各種管道去取得他需要的人力協助因為他會"},{"start":5751.058,"end":5751.098,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":5771.542,"end":5798.162,"text":"大家都不太敢去發聲因為其實還在學校裡面如果跟老師的關係處不好的話或多一點的要求的話其實在學校裡面會有很大的壓力所以獨立申訴機制可能是校外而且它的委員可能是要是更公正或者是第三人沒有利益關係的這樣那個部分而且這個其實不只是針對障礙生因為障礙者的角色也非常立體他可能是LGBT的"},{"start":5799.403,"end":5800.023,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":5820.189,"end":5825.771,"text":"另外就是我覺得有很多教育訓練沒錯就是有生命教育或相關的平權教育但我覺得除了要有獨立申訴機制、監測機制還有考核機制對,不然這樣子就不會變成是形式上的一個教育訓練做完就結束了沒有看到它的成效另外就是我們在無障礙空間還有服務還有交通以及合理調整的措施也是未來必須要跟各個障礙團體"},{"start":5848.26,"end":5852.882,"text":"來去討論如何真正的執行因為CRPD裡面有這樣的一個相關的一些要求跟服務的提供可是其實在臺灣的很多的教育現場對於大家來講合理調整到底是什麼其實知道的人非常少那無障礙環境也是有非常大的不足因為其實現在的校園的無障礙大家的認知都會覺得有一個停車位有一個斜坡然後建築物一棟裡面"},{"start":5875.188,"end":5879.33,"text":"有一間無障礙廁所就叫有無障礙的但大家想想看下課10分鐘如果一個障礙就是一個學校有很多障礙生的話我們要如何在有限的電梯還有有限的廁所去通行然後來解決我們最基本的生理需求其實現在是非常非常不足的那我們去學校也不是只是上廁所或坐電梯而已我們還要去很多的教室或者是不同的地方餐廳體育館"},{"start":5904.702,"end":5905.302,"text":"現在有特教助理員和在學助理員"},{"start":5931.428,"end":5936.471,"text":"那現在最大的問題剛剛講我們處理一些案件就是時數不足或者校方明明有資源可是不投入在這個地方造成其實現在已經有很多的家庭的那個結構已經改變了過去都把障礙者的照顧角色放在家人或媽媽的身上但其實現在我們有發現很多單親的家庭媽媽要去工作然後她也有重度極重的障礙者在念大學好不容易考上大學了但就因為助理員的時數沒有辦法好好的就讀"},{"start":5960.967,"end":5961.007,"text":"公聽委員："},{"start":5984.343,"end":5991.749,"text":"在2022年的那個國際會議的審查委員結論性裡面有提出政府應該要就是協調各個不同的支持與服務人力支持其實有居家服務個人助理還有特教助理員在學助理可是他分散在不同的地方居家服務沒辦法或個人助理沒辦法送障礙者接送上下學到校園會被就是因為他的服務範圍被限制然後"},{"start":6009.541,"end":6014.043,"text":"障礙者在校園用校園助理有些學校會規定不能協助生理的需求或者是基本的需求只能協助翻書或者是拿書這些校內的需求所謂讀書的需求所以其實我們已經有很多人力支持但必須要整合以人為中心來協助障礙者不管在聽打或者是手語或者是各個肢體上的協助他能夠整合社區跟相關的資源讓障礙者能夠"},{"start":6036.715,"end":6036.835,"text":"主席"},{"start":6044.844,"end":6070.9,"text":"好,非常謝謝林理事長其實真的凸顯出來我們立法院這個無障礙空間的不足那這些都會讓我再反映到總務處這邊過來那林理事長這邊特別提到了我們通過了特教法但是怎麼樣子讓他能夠落實CRPD的精神可能挑戰才是開始啦那當然因為我剛剛也提到我是護理背景那我非常能夠體認你提到的長照2.0現在對於居家這個"},{"start":6074.642,"end":6074.802,"text":"王漢陽理事長韓秘書長"},{"start":6103.363,"end":6125.554,"text":"謝謝主席、各位專家學者與會員首先很肯定說今年2023年這邊特教法修法通過我們在此呼籲第一件事情就是特推會的任務一定要去落實第二個就是IEP的部分一定要落實學生需求這兩件事情能落實的情形之下我相信特教法在推動上就會比較順利"},{"start":6127.635,"end":6154.569,"text":"剛才也很肯定說那個馬明義社工這邊在提到的說所謂的現在很多CRC代表其實並不一定完全能完全表現出第一線兒少的聲音那這件事情我們也是首先我們也會去提醒一下說現在兒童權利公約的部分有關兒少代表的部分是不是應該重新去思考調整一下反映第一線偏鄉甚至一些不利族群當中的一些聲音好"},{"start":6155.209,"end":6179.309,"text":"我們在今天公聽會當中首先國教盟的一個主張是推動友善校園反霸凌、反歧視應增加輔導資源跟落實品德與家庭教育有幾個訴求跟幾個重點第一點來講說我們是呼籲增加輔導資源跟強化弱勢關懷那我們的青年部的一個代表李宇涵反映說其實長期他在服務一些脆弱家庭當中"},{"start":6180.209,"end":6205.185,"text":"其實常常發現一件事情很多人都知道但是沒有辦法去對他們做輔導所以我們呼籲要去加強心理諮商的輔導對於一些不利處境當中心理或實際當中的支持有些時候視障聽障的朋友他需要的是一個助聽器不見得是給他們很多的一些可能升學各方面的一個這些的東西對他們是不一定有幫助的那再來適性的教育跟職業的輔導"},{"start":6206.726,"end":6235.141,"text":"對這些小朋友當中有幫助他們融入群體當中而避免被一些霸凌的風險發生甚至最後很多小朋友自暴自棄造成惡性循環這是第一點第二點的話我們呼籲落實品格教育在我們國教盟10月23號有發布一個全國家長的十大教育議題的調查當中品格教育是第一名那很多家長團體各地都在推遲所謂的禮義廉恥那聽起來這些事情"},{"start":6236.041,"end":6253.847,"text":"大概可以知道其實就是在品格教育並沒有去落實所以一早其實各位如果去當過學校的一個志工就會發現校長在跟大家打招呼學生其實就這樣走過去完全什麼完全無視校長當中的一個招呼因為我們多半重視的是顯性的"},{"start":6255.507,"end":6282.615,"text":"成績方面的教育而隱性的教育其實比較不被重視所以近幾年來學校的一些性平霸凌案件我們大部分都用修法的方式再去處理嚴懲加害者那事實上法律只能約束外在行為內在你其實是沒有辦法的尊重其實是來自於同理心所以其實學習傾聽這件事情是很重要所以不然的話這些其實的加害者可能就是過去的受害者"},{"start":6283.335,"end":6307.806,"text":"所以我們其實呼籲說要處理的方式其實要學習修復式正義的做法包含韓國的一些示範學校的案例有一些和解圈跟適當的溝通跟對話這是一個好的方式第三個加強家庭教育家庭教育其實近年以來我不知道各位應該也清楚法令快速的調整行政規定非常的多其實我說實話基層學校根本負擔不了"},{"start":6308.326,"end":6327.277,"text":"教師其實面對的為了避免觸法所以他們就通常會選擇比較消極甚至不作為的方式那這種情形之下就是加深霸凌歧視等問題不敢涉入所以變得更加嚴重所以我們其實呼籲家長要適當的去介入這個教育甚至"},{"start":6327.717,"end":6350.692,"text":"我們之前一直在期待的所謂的家長參與教育事務辦法要改為像現在的所謂的實際家庭照顧者的一個做法但目前現在都還沒有看到那世界人權宣言第16條指出所以其實家庭是社會的自然跟基本的單位我們要如何去實現家庭的親子教育這是首要當務之急"},{"start":6351.893,"end":6374.2,"text":"我呼籲應該要提升家庭教育的一個行政的層級跟增加預算還有建立一套有系統的家庭影響力的評估監察院其實在102年、106年、108年有三度糾正教育部目前下一步一年家庭教育的預算只有3億大概是總預算的千分之一這是非常不足的"},{"start":6374.62,"end":6394.788,"text":"第四點我們希望清楚定義相關的名詞日本霸凌通報一年是61萬的案件那我們可以知道61萬案件學校當中動輒得救的法令程序的情形之下像現在的校師會議面臨很多的就是行政量一定不足那這種情形之下你要凸顯重點在於凸顯這些"},{"start":6396.249,"end":6413.09,"text":"法定啟動要件是不是不明確或過於寬鬆所以需要清楚去定義各項的一個名詞包含提出來人數比例不利處境的狀況群體是什麼樣的定義還有包含歧視的定義我覺得都要定義清楚再來就是避免學校成為法院"},{"start":6413.37,"end":6413.83,"text":"5.人權教育"},{"start":6434.321,"end":6455.738,"text":"不足以自行其實在臺灣目前現在很重要的並不完全是立法而我認為我們認為是落實的部分人權教育其實現在在很多包含在課綱都已經需要被落實而且其實我們在兒童權利工業都有在要求這件事情其實教材跟方式都有包含綜合領域課綱"},{"start":6456.559,"end":6475.087,"text":"也都有講到這件事情那應該回到教育的體制來進行而不再是一個比較空泛抽象當中的法律如果你成立一些若干的委員會還有教育中心的情形之下來實行這些跌床教育的方式不見得會有利現在教育的發展那再來應該要檢視"},{"start":6475.967,"end":6490.535,"text":"是人權之間的平衡其實教師權、學生權、家長權都在倡議那在都道倡議如何取得平衡衝突的時候怎麼辦呢這個時候是應該落實完去取得這些中間的平衡該怎麼去處理"},{"start":6491.475,"end":6514.214,"text":"人權教育其實應該是落實更客觀的法治教育去做這樣一個宣導是有必要的其實在之前在2018年黃國書委員提出人權教育法的時候後來其實各界評估沒有必要其實就是因為他沒有一個實際的不是一個實際的人權教育法以上這幾點請各位去參考看看那也是我們國教盟的一些意見謝謝大家"},{"start":6516.028,"end":6532.043,"text":"非常謝謝王理事長具體提出了五項的一個建議那其中我真的覺得很有感因為我剛剛走過來的路上才在跟我的助理講說這個好像走過來大家都會打招呼在學校當老師那麼久大家都不打招呼"},{"start":6534.144,"end":6553.993,"text":"這個品德教育真的好像需要從頭開始落實那當然還有很多對於我們立法院這邊的一個建議比如說在人權教育上面怎麼樣子能夠取得各項的一個平衡我覺得這些我們都會帶回去再做研擬好 謝謝那我接下來就請我們的韓秘書長"},{"start":6555.174,"end":6578.55,"text":"好,大家早安。我是臺灣性別平等教育協會的秘書長韓怡貞。那臺灣性別平等教育協會是一個主要由現場的教育工作者所組成的性別平等倡議團體。那我們長期以來關注校園裡面的性別平等教育還有友善環境的建制。所以我今天會著重分享校園裡面的性平教育還可以怎麼樣更促進平等以及更促進人性尊嚴。"},{"start":6579.991,"end":6594.985,"text":"大家都知道臺灣擁有全球數一數二的性別平等教育法而且已經實施了將近20年然後我們也是亞洲第一個通過同性婚姻的國家所以我們其實擁有非常良好的法治基礎可是教學現場到底有沒有跟上"},{"start":6595.686,"end":6616.983,"text":"我自己前一陣子去一個小學演講分享同志的生命故事那演講結束之後有個小朋友他在回饋問卷上面寫說他從四年級開始發現他自己是同性戀但是因為他很討厭同性戀所以他會打自己的身體還有另外一個同學寫說他跟女同學談戀愛但是因為他自己也是女神所以他被罵是變態"},{"start":6618.544,"end":6636.809,"text":"我們的性別平等教育法希望可以教導學生尊重多元性別差異然後希望學校可以打造性別平等的學習環境在課綱裡面也確實有規定國中小的性平教育的學習內容應該要包含不同性傾向的基本概念以及不同性傾向的尊重態度"},{"start":6638.189,"end":6657.88,"text":"可是本會實際去檢視教科書的內容,就發現國小的部分完全沒有提到不同性傾向,國中的部分也非常非常少。高中階段也許有一些,可是我剛剛說的這些從小學開始打自己、討厭自己或是被罵變態的孩子,我們難道要他等到高中才能接觸到這些正確的資訊嗎?"},{"start":6659.201,"end":6669.951,"text":"那剛剛前面有提到同志諮詢熱線協會也有調查有將近三成的同志學生表示他們在學校的時候沒有被教導過跟同志相關的內容那有26.9%的更慘他是被教導過相關的負面的內容"},{"start":6674.455,"end":6697.18,"text":"過去幾年在臺灣社會有很多反對同志教育的聲音所以因為這樣很多書商不敢放相關的內容很多老師不敢教相關的內容本會今年針對小學老師進行一個關於全面性教育的調查有將近六成的老師說他們會擔心來自家長的壓力有13%的老師他實際曾經被施壓過要求他不要教某一些主題"},{"start":6698.2,"end":6712.914,"text":"如果我們希望每個人都可以有尊嚴的生活,如果我們反對霸凌,反對歧視,那就更應該要正視這些性平教育在落實層面的問題。那除了教學內容以外,學校的整體環境或者是制度,是不是友善的?"},{"start":6713.959,"end":6730.808,"text":"前幾天才剛又有一個學校被爆出來說他有違法的敬愛令有學生在學校裡面接吻然後被寄警告那校方的回應是說學生沒有發呼請致於理這個顯示校方本身對於性平跟法治可能就有一點缺乏概念"},{"start":6731.548,"end":6757.455,"text":"我們也聽過很多的跨性別學生他在學校不敢去上廁所他要憋尿一整天或者是他在要入住宿舍的時候遇到很多的刁難教育部的統計也顯示在2016年到2022年之間校園性霸凌的案件數每年大概有30件到80件左右然後被害人的人數每年大概有30個人到90個人左右那大家聽到這個數字應該都覺得不可能吧"},{"start":6757.935,"end":6776.809,"text":"不可能這麼少吧那這個數字其實是經過申訴調查程序的案量實際上性騷擾或者是性霸凌經常被包裝在玩笑底下所以很難求助甚至有可能是難以察覺的而福聯盟的調查也發現在間接霸凌的情況裡面只有47.2%的兒少會選擇告訴市長"},{"start":6780.712,"end":6797.209,"text":"就算他們告訴師長了,師長有沒有能力可以妥善的處置在有一些情況裡面,師長本身甚至就是性霸凌或是性騷擾的行為人根據教育部剛剛同一個統計,生對生的性霸凌大概佔8到9成,但師對生的性霸凌也佔1到2成"},{"start":6798.59,"end":6823.58,"text":"那熱線的調查也顯示有將近七成的同志學生曾經聽過學校的教職人發表共同的言論那這可能是因為我們給教職人的訓練本身根本就不足夠在108到110學年度裡面全臺灣46所師培大學中只有半數有在師資培育的課程裡面開設性別相關的課程而且大部分是選修課沒有強制性的"},{"start":6824.76,"end":6841.1,"text":"本會今年針對小學老師的調查也發現有將近四成的小學老師他在失陪階段跟在職進修階段都沒有接受過性教育相關的訓練那所以最後回應本次公聽會的提綱教育部應採取哪些具體措施或積極的機制來促進平等"},{"start":6842.782,"end":6868.774,"text":"以及如何改善不利處境群體的校園處境本會在這邊提出以下的幾點建議第一個是無論是教科書的編寫或者是教師實際授課的內容我們認為都應該要確實的按照課綱納入認識多元性別的相關內容因為唯有真正的認識才有機會不再歧視第二點是校園的空間與制度的設計都應該考量不同學生的需求打造友善共榮的學習環境"},{"start":6871.486,"end":6878.408,"text":"高等教育及獅子培育機構應增設性別相關課程教師的在職進修也應增設多人性別相關主題的課程並建立成效評估機制只有通報案件數的統計是無法反映性霸凌性騷擾實際上的狀況的"},{"start":6891.232,"end":6891.372,"text":"以上建議,謝謝"},{"start":6904.076,"end":6919.87,"text":"好,非常謝謝韓秘書長真的凸顯出來在教育現場的一個真實現況那也具體提出來給我們的教育部行政部門在改善方面的一個建議比如說教科書怎麼樣子能夠落實校園空間怎麼樣子能夠營造這樣子的一個友善環境的一個空間"},{"start":6924.614,"end":6924.894,"text":"我們現在就休息10分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":6953.766,"end":6954.247,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7558.083,"end":7580.431,"text":"好 我們繼續開會喔 那我們下一位發言是東華大學民族事務與發展學系的副教授 陳張培倫老師謝謝他特別從花蓮 來臺北 感恩感恩 那下一位是我們今天唯一的兒少代表 臺北市兒少代表黃佩琦 也是成大的學生 他請準備"},{"start":7584.658,"end":7587.925,"text":"主席、各位委員以及各位朋友大家好"},{"start":7589.799,"end":7614.877,"text":"很榮幸今天能夠應貴院教育文化委員會的邀請就族群歧視霸凌的議題提出我的一些想法由於今年上半年中一中的西歡那事件臺大火冒4.05帳以及該校經濟系學生會選舉事件校園族群歧視的嚴重性忽然就被大家注意了成為舉國甚至教育尤其是教育界關注的焦點"},{"start":7616.218,"end":7634.993,"text":"更不要說在早先去年中部某國中的一件學生衝突事件當中因為某一位原民生被口頭侮辱為死原住民那就憤而跳樓身亡那在這些事件當中無論是少數族群的家長比如說像我"},{"start":7635.794,"end":7664.734,"text":"或者是學校的老師﹚無論是政府或民間部門﹚無論是各級議會的朋友﹚或者是社會有事之士﹚無不驚覺到我們的在學年輕人到底出了什麼事情﹚竟然將對於少數族群的嘲弄貶抑當作稀鬆平常的事情﹚甚至還把它當作是言論自由﹚甚至反而怪起少數族群的學生過度玻璃心﹚"},{"start":7666.055,"end":7691.894,"text":"實際上面如果我們回過來看的話呢相關的公部門早就已經啟動了反族群歧視霸凌的一些工作比如說在教育部門108課綱社會領域課程綱要及教科書反族群歧視的反偏見的一些議題早就已經成為課程內容比如說在學校裡面相當敏感的原民升學保障議題現在早就已經出現在新課綱"},{"start":7692.974,"end":7693.494,"text":"公聽會委員：完整會議"},{"start":7710.9,"end":7726.313,"text":"社會福利部門 也根據了CRC 兒童權利公約的精神編輯了一些材料比如說我自己曾經部分參與過的就有一本兒少反歧視案例會編這個會編最後也都發送給各個部門"},{"start":7732.018,"end":7756.112,"text":"不管是各機關或者是各學校的相關的人員能夠對於偏見和歧視的敏感度提升但就如同有人評論說的現在是一個族群平等教育課程越多但是校園的族群偏見、歧視事件卻層出不窮的時代畢竟在族群階層化的社會現實之下"},{"start":7757.933,"end":7762.916,"text":"主流族群成員的言行其實很容易對於少數族群形成某種載制關係就人類社會發展的歷程來講這種載制關係講坦白話真的是很難消除但是還是可以做一些努力去把它矯正緩和"},{"start":7786.83,"end":7806.456,"text":"換言之社會成員對於特定族群的主觀偏見恐怕是很難完全消除的但我們仍然可以盡力防止主觀偏見外化而成為一些歧視的言行所以我在這邊提出了兩個可能在行政或立法部門的一些心格建議我提出了兩項建議"},{"start":7808.317,"end":7829.884,"text":"第一,在族群平等或反歧視立法工程尚未完整之前,建議教育部參考《性別平等教育法》實施經驗,就族群平等或反歧視教育所涉及的學習環境與資源、課程教材與教學、族群歧視霸凌事件防治等面向,"},{"start":7830.504,"end":7845.97,"text":"在主管機關及學校的職權範圍之內盤整各校在既有條件之下除了簽署108課綱課程教學學習面向之外還能夠先做一些什麼事情比如說我就觀察到"},{"start":7847.17,"end":7871.164,"text":"在學校裡面其實性別平等以及族群平等這兩個議題受關注的程度是有別的舉一個實例比如說在各校的學生講審辦法當中因著性平法的規定通常會特別續名與性別有關的反霸凌規範但各校的講審辦法裡面卻很少會特別提到族群反霸凌的規定有可能"},{"start":7871.684,"end":7883.874,"text":"就是因為這樣的一個現象就會造成校內的師生在面臨性別與族群歧視問題時敏感程度很明顯產生的落差但是我會覺得在這個階段"},{"start":7886.976,"end":7904.326,"text":"教育主管機關提醒各校在既有的講審辦法裡面加注反族群歧視或反族群霸凌的概念是現在就可以做的工作,完全不必等上位的立法工作或許可以藉由這樣的一個手段提升校內師生相應的意識或警覺心"},{"start":7905.527,"end":7924.278,"text":"其次當然更重要的是在尚未法規的這個法律的面向我贊成本次公聽會關係文書所提及的某些法律修正案比如針對教育基本法第8條的反霸凌規定更明確的序名應該要包括階級、性別、族群、性取向等群體此外"},{"start":7924.818,"end":7943.112,"text":"我也建議行政與立法部門對於克正進行的族群平等法或反歧視法研擬工作最好將懲罰性的規定與教育手段分流立法畢竟想要以刑法的手段來處理族群歧視議題它的社會爭議目前仍然非常的大"},{"start":7943.692,"end":7972.672,"text":"可能會因為這樣的爭議造成共識不太容易形成立法工作恐怕就會曠日廢時但是依性平教育的經驗不涉及刑法手段的族群平等教育法制化工程是可以先行處理的好讓族群平等教育政策的依據及架構更加的完整那剛才主席有提到我今天一早從那個花蓮出門除了到貴院參與這個公聽會之外呢等一下中午還要轉往位於嘉義的中正大學"},{"start":7973.612,"end":7999.229,"text":"為該校學生活動主講及受學生關注的原名升學保障議題相關主題我也應邀在許多學校以及教師社群分享過可見對於族群平等理想許多的學校與老師其實也是有使命感的但是如果法治政策框架能夠更加完整應該有機會讓各校的反族群歧視霸凌的工作更有系統更有方向以上的建議供國議院參考謝謝"},{"start":8001.259,"end":8001.319,"text":"主席"},{"start":8020.899,"end":8031.955,"text":"今天的唯一的一位兒少代表我們臺北市兒少代表黃佩琦發言她也是我們成功大學的學生下一位吳彥德人生百位的共同創辦人請準備"},{"start":8034.346,"end":8060.695,"text":"好,各位委員會,謝謝大家。我是兒少代表黃沛琦。然後針對提綱,就是我想我就用我在校園裡面看到的東西去做出我的觀...去講述我的觀察。首先就是教育部應該採取哪些具體措施來促進平等,就是其實臺大在經過言論自由月之後有決議要成立族群平等工作小組。我想這應該就算是一個比較具體的做法,但除了積極平權措施之外,我覺得我們"},{"start":8061.175,"end":8081.144,"text":"更應該去回想為什麼大家會選擇在原猶會選舉又或者是在言論自由會講出這種仇視特定族群的話語他們其實是一個反向歧視的概念就是當今天有特殊族群他們得到了特殊的可能優惠性積極待遇之後他們可能會覺得自己的權利為什麼他可以有我不能有所以這種其實反倒覺得自己被歧視其實會讓"},{"start":8086.946,"end":8086.986,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8107.216,"end":8122.41,"text":"我想這就是大家或許過去在推動一些積極平權措施又或者是這些附加條件的時候並沒有跟大家講清楚這些政策要用去賣就像是可能大家並不知道原住民加分制度它一開始的脈絡是什麼後來為什麼又轉變成這個樣子對然後其實我覺得是可以"},{"start":8127.835,"end":8156.078,"text":"創造一個環境是能不能讓大家真的把他們心中的情緒講出來因為其實情緒在心這只是會變成大家累積越來越多的情緒之後的輿論只會越來越激烈那如果真的好好去講大家心裡的想法我覺得這反而是一種可以讓各個族群真的坐下來講話因為過去我們可能都會比較傾向我們要幫助受歧視的那一方但我覺得能不能創造出一個讓"},{"start":8157.159,"end":8186.439,"text":"一般民眾然後跟這些族群有個平等交流的機會我覺得是重要的像是過去臺大有做過一件事是NTU交流版那個交流是焦慮的焦就是他們在一個公共空間裡面他們放了便利貼然後讓學生匿名寫下自己焦慮的狀況對 這或許是一個個人的情況但也有可能是一個大家都有的情緒只是沒有人講出來當這件事情做了之後其實會發現有非常多紙條大家都有類似的感覺感受然後其實在寫出來之後情緒也會好一點"},{"start":8187.259,"end":8187.599,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8213.291,"end":8234.996,"text":"然後至於就是我們會覺得說我們想要讓一般的民眾然後還有可能比較弱勢的族群他們有共同交友空間彼此理解的管道然後這些不應該只出現在課本上就是我們覺得或許應該要融入空間涉及到校外社區的規劃還有營造就是學生能不能一起參與討論我們所謂的理想的校園長什麼樣子關於空間的規劃又或者是有沒有什麼參與式的"},{"start":8241.738,"end":8246.239,"text":"新住民子女在學校的部分其實我們 因為我自己是新住民子女我覺得可以從國小端就開始做無論是主題周也好又或者是參訪或者是在班會課的一些選文或者是真的找"},{"start":8269.565,"end":8297.326,"text":"就是其中新住民子女他們的父母家長來也好就是社會課本上寫的東西會很簡要就是在關於不同國家的文化它會寫得非常的扼要並不是說課本是錯的但不能只有課本就是我覺得你真的想要消除一個歧視是要讓大家真的完全的不是完全認識就是要更全面的認識它這個不單單只是課本上就可以做到而是你能不能把這些文化這些東西融入在國小生的生活中讓他們去認識"},{"start":8299.673,"end":8299.693,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8329.953,"end":8344.548,"text":"國中老師我覺得他們比起傳授學科知識我覺得跟學生建立關係還有培養期的健全人格我覺得是在這邊的基本教育其實是最需要做到的事情然後這邊也會想要提出說在"},{"start":8345.529,"end":8345.629,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8367.341,"end":8393.089,"text":"剛剛想要講到的是第三題就是不利處境學生多元發展的資源剛剛瑪瑟宮有提到說就是特殊選才這個管道但其實特殊選才的管道這邊要提到可能就要回到第四題那邊就是其實臺灣對於貧窮的定義是非常嚴格的可能這個學生他因為親戚有不動產又或者是給予各種的原因他申請不到低收入戶但可能他就是在貧窮限制上一點點的那種很邊緣的學生"},{"start":8394.83,"end":8420.336,"text":"特殊選才的時候其實他就是跟普通生一起比但天生的資源本來就不足了對所以其實這是一個蠻明顯就是其實是不利於這些學生的一個措施然後再來就是特殊選才結束他真的進到學校之後學校有什麼方法可以幫助他繼續在這間學校裡面就讀因為他進到這個學校之後他的程度可能不一定跟得上其他同學"},{"start":8420.976,"end":8445.369,"text":"然後再來就是我也想說請大學端可以重新來思考所謂的逆境向上是什麼就是甚至是高中端的審核跟推薦是不是真的可以成為一個小孩是否逆境向上的依據就是其實如果他是在階級複製裡面他在一個貧窮家庭長大的小孩其實那個無力感是非常重的這可能對大家而言比較難想像但那個無力感會讓他覺得說"},{"start":8446.77,"end":8471.451,"text":"其實繼續往上讀也沒什麼用不如馬上去賺錢這樣然後因為時間的原因就是我就是我直接做結論就是其實營造一個可以對話的空間然後這個對話空間可以是一間教室大到可能是像這樣的一個群星樓就是或是網路平台等等就是讓每個社會處境不利的群體有平等然後有尊嚴的活在這片土地上是我們大家都要一起努力的然後希望大家能理解就是我剛剛講的時候"},{"start":8472.493,"end":8475.803,"text":"一切所謂就是其實有漠視跟歧視的地方就會有人權議題的存在好 我們發言到這邊 謝謝大家"},{"start":8480.547,"end":8485.612,"text":"謝謝黃培奇同學也謝謝他特別從台南上來參加我們今天公聽會我們真的很需要聽俄紹的聲音他的角度跟我們比較不一樣談到就是說其實有些情緒不知道政策的來由那些不理解就是說一直都在還有教師的不作為默示本身就是對社會不利處境的"},{"start":8506.23,"end":8509.152,"text":"再來我們請人生百位文化結構協會的共同創辦人吳彥德發言那下一位趨往我們臺大社工系的副教授請準備"},{"start":8529.616,"end":8547.316,"text":"好,那謝謝委員,然後謝謝各位先進行的分享。那我是人生百味的共同發起人,然後我也是窮學夢的發言人。那今天他在談的是一個可能大家過去比較從習慣他去談他,比較像是階級歧視。然後這也是可能是在臺灣談論這種貧窮議題裡面比較少的。"},{"start":8550.619,"end":8577.146,"text":"因為過去我們在談論貧窮議題的時候比較都是從經濟的缺少比如說怎麼去補助啊怎麼去把錢的部分補起來但其實對於他們所處境然後他們所面臨的歧視這件事情談論的比較少那這也是為什麼會有我們有14個組織從服務貧窮慢慢走向了這種社會倡議因為我們發現我們所服務的群體不管是兒少、精神疾病經驗者、身心障礙者或者是奸賣者、食荒者、無家者還有都市原住民"},{"start":8577.546,"end":8589.458,"text":"他們共同都面臨了所謂的貧窮汙名跟貧窮歧視的問題所以今天想要跟大家介紹這個計畫以及我們在這6年的工作之中我們找到了如何去消除這樣歧視的方法跟方法論這樣子"},{"start":8593.399,"end":8607.145,"text":"我先講貧窮汙名其實在現代社會它是非常優惠的就是說它其實一直存在然後大家其實沒什麼感覺我隨便講的就是因為在現代社會是一個以金錢作為衡量成功價值的一個社會裡面所以貧窮常常就會跟失敗、愚蠢"},{"start":8608.246,"end":8633.217,"text":"短視這些事情負面標籤畫上標籤所以其實我們這種很常使用的各種語言你根本就不會注意到它其實是一種歧視例如說笑貧不笑娼這句話意思是什麼就是說如果你願意做性工作者去賺錢那你會比不願意賺錢而情貧窮人更好但事實上是你兩個都不應該笑就是會去做性工作的人本來就是因為沒有選擇的狀態同樣的一個人陷入貧窮他也不是他的困境也不是他的問題"},{"start":8634.477,"end":8660.409,"text":"第二件事是,如果你沒有好好讀書,那你就會流落街頭,就會在街上像勤起的人。我們看到很多老師帶著孩子來到街上去認識無價者的時候,他們會用這個方式來教育他們。那對我來說,其實這也是一種歧視。你意識,你認為說,他們是一群不夠努力的人,他們才會變成現在這個樣子。那我們最常在網路文章各種地方看到的窮人跟富人的五個不同的思維,那其實這就是一個歧視。因為它常常意味著富人比較聰明,而窮人比較愚蠢,他們才會變成貧窮的狀態。"},{"start":8663.308,"end":8686.738,"text":"最後一句沒打完不好意思那這樣的汙名其實產生什麼行為?它最大的核心其實產生各種歧視的行為那其實我們所看到的這些汙名的本質是什麼?它的本質就是不認識錯誤的認識而錯誤認識的時候它就會遇到各種的不合理的對待包含來說你會看到學校產生一些有異味的同學但你沒有理解到他身體有異味可是你沒有理解到他的"},{"start":8687.338,"end":8716.53,"text":"意味是來自於他的家庭可能清潔條件不好或他今天家裡沒有辦法修繕他的浴室所以他而產生髒污他很自然就會在學校被大家嘲笑他因為他的外型我甚至看到有人有孩子因為他是有頭屍而被學校嘲笑那或者是然後我覺得這樣的學校的狀態延伸到整個社會他就會是各式各樣羞辱包含了我們遇到吳嘉哲他在社區如果做安置中心他就會被零幣被社會排除或者是有人因為從事酒店業而遭受到警察的羞辱"},{"start":8719.324,"end":8738.966,"text":"這件事情的核心問題,我們在這幾年的貧窮工作裡面,我們看到有幾個核心的問題,它影響的範圍是非常大的。臺灣有3%的中低收入戶,但是事實上我們所調查至少10%的生活現困的人,包含家庭。這件事情最核心的第一件事情是,貧窮者會為了避免被羞辱而不為對外求助。"},{"start":8739.526,"end":8767.424,"text":"你會發現很多孩子他有困難可是他走到最後一刻你都不知道他遇到這些困難第二件事情是他會讓人長期處於低自信跟自地自尊的狀態他很多事情會覺得自己做不到所以很快他可能就會放棄學習升學這種概念第三個是他因為被錯誤的理解所以他會被很多羞辱跟對待包含了說當一個大學上體育課有人在學校裡面有錢弄丟了你很容易第一個懷疑的事情就是那個低收入的孩子是不是他把東西偷走了因為他缺錢"},{"start":8768.405,"end":8791.196,"text":"所以它成了錯誤的對待 很多時候在學校裡面不斷的遇到最後一個就是它會產生了各種的合作跟排除以及它會使這個社會進入一種恐弱的狀態我們會害怕脆弱的展現害怕脆弱的存在而包含自己跟別人的所以不是只有貧困的人無法求助你連一般的人當他陷入貧困陷入困難的時候他也會變得無法求助"},{"start":8793.288,"end":8821.454,"text":"而這件事情它形成的會是一個循環我們看到當一個人因為選擇的匱乏貧窮選擇匱乏他必須選擇一些難以被理解的選擇包含流浪包含在家工作而這件事情會產生所謂汙名不認識而最後這件事情它就會變成很多歧視跟排除可是歧視跟排除它會讓一個人變得更有選擇嗎?不會它會讓一個人選擇變得更少所以它會再次的強化這個選擇匱乏它會變得更沒有選擇它就會進入一個負面的循環所以這個循環是無法跳脫的如果沒有特別去打破它是無法跳脫的"},{"start":8823.339,"end":8829.313,"text":"像是我們過去就會去分享有哪些這樣的選擇像是貧窮的臺北它就是一個這樣的社會教育跟社會溝通的計畫"},{"start":8831.796,"end":8859.418,"text":"這件事要怎麼解決呢?我們要先了解歧視的本質跟污名的本質是什麼?污名的本質其實是一種差異性的發現我們只發現我們不一樣的地方但是沒有發現我們有什麼是一樣的所以在一個在John Powell這個老師他是一個在伯克利大學的一個法學教授他從事了很多黑人跟白人的運動他從事一種黑人跟白人的對話運動他提到一件事情我們的工作是要去創造帶有共同性的故事因為在表意識的論述我們告訴你不要歧視這是歧視那是歧視的時候它會產生防衛而"},{"start":8861.099,"end":8888.991,"text":"帶有共同性的故事會造成在潛意識的層次上去消除彼此的對立跟歧視為什麼?因為就是如剛剛佩琪講的在這裡面他其實就是一種有情緒他有在潛意識他自己都沒有意識到他的痛苦跟不舒服他需要透過一種共同性的發現的本質就是我需要去了解別人的痛苦是什麼我需要去了解我講出這句話原來會對你帶來痛苦當我們打人讓別人覺得痛苦之後我們自然很容易理解到啊我手要停下來原來這樣做你會痛"},{"start":8891.428,"end":8912.136,"text":"而在2007年發表的這個論文以精神疾病對抗來說他提到一件事情當社會群體跟精神疾病患者直接接觸的時候會很有效的減少精神疾病的發現這也證實在我們與無家者議題的時候我們帶社會大眾到街上跟無家者一起對話的時候我們會發現很多人看到街友的時候他就想說原來他是個人啊"},{"start":8913.536,"end":8924.745,"text":"但他沒有對話之前他以為他沒有任何感受沒有任何想法因為他沒有講話可是當他講話的時候發現原來你是一個一般人啊其實為什麼因為我們在實際接觸過程中我們會發現很多彼此共同性的地方"},{"start":8927.213,"end":8953.088,"text":"所以在這個地方我們可以創造一種就是當我們去理解匱乏的時候我們的行為就會轉變我們自然進入一種社會包容而去創造對方的選擇所以我有五個具體的建議第一個事情是我認為在教育部裡面要有效去投資這種去建立歧視者跟受歧者之間的對話界面它必須是一個平等的狀態而不只是關懷或支持直接去創造直接去接觸的界面它會有效的減少這個歧視而第二個事情是"},{"start":8954.77,"end":8971.447,"text":"受歧視者需要練習怎麼發聲因為長期受歧視的人是不了解自己所遇到的處境他連自己被歧視他自己都不知道所以這個發聲的過程他很需要表意的練習他需要去重建那個信心他需要一個為自己去汙名化的過程"},{"start":8974.877,"end":8992.803,"text":"教育可以與社政結合,因為受歧視者常常是這個經驗者,所以他其實可以成為這個教育者的老師。所以我們在做很多工作,我們發現其實可以把弱勢者變成反歧視教育的一種老師,他其實可以結合社政與教育。"},{"start":8993.863,"end":8994.163,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":9011.997,"end":9034.04,"text":"最後我們應該用我們看到更有效的方式去引導跟探尋你去了解你為什麼要去歧視別人這件事情去取代或補充禁止這件事情因為禁止只有短期有效他會在短期不表達這個意見可是他情緒沒有消失你需要去了解他為什麼要做這件事情然後問他說如果你覺得假設你覺得原住民加分這個制度不公平"},{"start":9034.56,"end":9034.7,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9049.151,"end":9065.263,"text":"謝謝吳彥德,我想他提出了很多具體可行的做法那也把背後的這個學理分析得很清楚那包含就是說看到街友也是個人那謝謝我們今天好幾位NGO也因為這樣我上次總質詢的時候就錄了幾個無家者的影像讓他們直接說話讓大家聽到他們的心聲那我想那個力量是很大的"},{"start":9073.469,"end":9102.023,"text":"接下來我們就請臺大社工系的副教授屈昂發言下一位是芒草青慈善協會的秘書長李盈姿請準備主席 各位現場的委員還有各位現場的先進大家好 我是吉王德拉這是我泰魯閣族的名字我就是單列我的族名我本身是來自花蓮的泰魯閣族爸爸是德魯古泰魯閣族人媽媽是花蓮的喉嚨人所以是在一個元漢雙族裔背景成長的"},{"start":9103.644,"end":9125.92,"text":"我今天因為本身現在在大專校院在做教學的服務之外我同時也兼任我們學校的原住民族學生資源中心的工作所以其實想要就一些在大專校院看到的目前學生們的一些處境那想做一點交流那當然剛好我自己這幾年來所關注的研究的議題也是聚焦在歧視還有引為歧視"},{"start":9127.021,"end":9143.674,"text":"我想提一下是其實不利處境的學生在我們的校園中會面臨到惡意的帶有敵意的歧視言論之外我們同時也一直在面對這種以為歧視的言行的對待我想強調那個以為歧視這件事因為可能就是有些現場的與會者有聽過的為歧視"},{"start":9145.916,"end":9146.296,"text":"主席"},{"start":9175.896,"end":9175.916,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9198.103,"end":9223.974,"text":"我也想提 歧視與引為歧視非常重要需要被認真關注有一個很重要的原因是因為不管是在國外的研究或是國內的研究其實我們都注意到一個現象你在日常生活中你長期經驗到歧視與引為歧視會影響我們的身心健康比如說憂鬱症、焦慮症、創傷後壓力症候群、低自尊、低幸福感、自我傷害、物質使用這個不是在危言聳聽這是在國外的"},{"start":9225.495,"end":9225.515,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9242.955,"end":9270.064,"text":"我們從裡面看到一個現象當你越頻繁的經驗到歧視跟引為歧視的原住民學生他的憂鬱或焦慮的程度越高這是我們現在在我們的量化研究看到這個現象那我想再一次的去強調一件事我們談這個議題非常重要的一件事是回應到我們族人們還有我們關注的這些不利人口群的民眾大家的健康是需要被大家共同來理解跟支持跟接觸的這樣"},{"start":9271.244,"end":9271.384,"text":"教職員培訓課程"},{"start":9289.577,"end":9317.233,"text":"提升大家對於性別﹑對於族群﹑對於多元議題的各式各樣的認識但我覺得有一個很重要也需要在教職員的知能養成的過程中是我們怎麼去培養我們的教職員有辦法去面對那個不舒服這件事我們現在在教育學裡面很多人會談當然國外現在在助人工作的教學現場也在談一個概念叫Pedagogical Discomfort就是不適感的教學法"},{"start":9317.893,"end":9344.152,"text":"在教學現場的老師們其實很多時候大家面對這些有爭議的歧視議題因為可能不太確定該怎麼處理也許不見得有那個足夠的這個訓練理解那個歧視的脈絡所以他可能不太知道我當談了這個議題之後也許會造成學生們的不舒服的感覺或造成有些已經在這個不利群體的學生更受傷的感受他因為不知道怎麼面對這件事而且選擇刻意的避免忽略或淡化談這些議題"},{"start":9345.353,"end":9367.151,"text":"我覺得這是在教學現場很可能會發生的現象我就舉我們原住民族的升學保障剛剛前面的陳昌培倫老師、董幹老師特別強調其實原住民的升學保障議題在臺灣我們這個是跨越不同原住民世代在面對的共同議題然後我們臺灣的非常多的族人、非常多的重要的前輩們也在各個場合不斷地在分享大家要理解升學保障的政策跟脈絡"},{"start":9368.012,"end":9389.706,"text":"可是我們還是在持續在面對到一件事像我昨天在東海大學的分享社會科學院分享的時候結束之後就有一個學生來跟我說他說我今天第一次才知道原來原住民的升學保障的脈絡跟我想的不一樣原來原住民的升學保障不影響非原住民的權益我們認為那種很基本的概念沒想到在一線的學生們到現在很多人還是不理解"},{"start":9390.106,"end":9415.478,"text":"有一個現象就是因為在學校的教育裡面雖然老師有教這些概念有教這些知識但是可能老師因為擔心學生們的情緒不知道如何面對可能有時候會淡化更刻意的忽略它不去處理這些這些可能造成的衝突事件所以我覺得這個教學的方法很需要在一線的現場有機會對老師有更多的支持然後另外一個是我們也需要理解歧視的脈絡是很多樣的"},{"start":9416.724,"end":9432.841,"text":"原住民的歧視﹚多元性別的歧視﹚障礙者的歧視﹚其實那個面向是很不一樣的我們面對到種族歧視﹚殖民的﹚種族主義跟殖民主義在原民的脈絡﹚那多元性別可能面對到一性論主義﹚跟這個性別二元論的主義﹚各自他父權主義的觀點﹚其實我們面對到歧視面向很不一樣的﹚但是我們每次在談歧視的時候﹚好像沒有再更細緻的去理解它的脈絡是什麼﹚"},{"start":9439.488,"end":9460.215,"text":"沒有談清楚的時候我們的教學對象我們對話的對象就不會知道面對到的議題到底是什麼然後我還在給我一點時間不好意思然後另外一個是我覺得很重要一件事情是我們也需要有一個對當代比如說在原民議題上我們需要對原住民的這個整個歷史脈絡的足夠的理解我覺得這個見像是很多時候我們在談原住民族議題的時候"},{"start":9461.115,"end":9477.027,"text":"大家常常就落入了這個福利資源這個保障的概念但是很少去了解到這個是跟過往的歷史不正義的脈絡有很深遠的關係因為沒有這個了解就從當代的分配式正義的角度來思考的時候就會忽略了這個原住民的真實的這個跨世代的這個經驗這樣子"},{"start":9478.468,"end":9482.852,"text":"學生端的教育我認為還想再講一件事我們很多時候這些多元性別的課程原住民族的課程在大專校院都是全休課"},{"start":9504.67,"end":9517.225,"text":"但是我們很需要有一種必修課讓學生能夠有機會能夠有這種練習自我覺察的可能可是在大學裡面很少有這件事必修課這不是首要的考量這是我簡單的一個回饋 謝謝"},{"start":9520.754,"end":9543.781,"text":"謝謝崔王教授他提出了非常多很好的建議也包含把為期做更具體的分析會影響到弱勢者的身心健康教學法上也謝謝他提出很好的建議再來我們請今天的學者專家的最後一位李盈姿發言她是臺灣芒草新慈善協會的秘書長"},{"start":9544.701,"end":9545.041,"text":"主席 各位委員還有各位的在場貴賓大家好"},{"start":9561.758,"end":9577.115,"text":"王草心是服務無家者那我今天就就我們在無家者的這塊的實務經驗就是提供我們這邊有觀察到的一些現象以及提出一些改善的建議那其實我覺得這個族群"},{"start":9577.996,"end":9604.02,"text":"無價者其實跟很多其他的弱勢族群可能有相同的處境可能包括像有思覺失調者或者是一些可能大家比較容易賦予負面標籤的族群他們其實長期以來都是受到一些可能來自社會大眾的一些無名還有歧視或者是在媒體的推破助瀾下面一直去助長所謂的負面的效應然後造成社會上的一些比較負面的觀感"},{"start":9604.58,"end":9604.6,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9619.912,"end":9635.516,"text":"普遍性的歧視也反映在我們這些服務對象他們比方說跟公部門或跟整個社會制度有所接觸的時候其實也反映出他們在這邊有受到的一些歧視甚至是制度性的排除我這邊簡單舉個例子"},{"start":9638.398,"end":9654.534,"text":"之前就會有一些地方政府的官員就說他們覺得無家者就是不喜歡住啊就是天生愛好自由所以他們其實在他們的居住的需求上就不會有真正太多的規劃甚至他們把他們不想住的這件事情很單純的劃約為他們就是不想"},{"start":9657.136,"end":9682.852,"text":"但他們沒有考慮到是因為可能受容所的設置其實並不符合使用者的需求比方大部分被設置到很偏遠的地方然後交通很不方便的地方甚至是它的空間非常的不友善它可能是好幾個人甚至十幾個人擠在同一個空間這樣子的一個場所那我想回歸到人的基本需求這都不是一個合適組的空間我想無家者也是一樣的那再來就是在社會福利的"},{"start":9684.47,"end":9707.698,"text":"在社會福利的這個領域裡面,像很多的人他因為現在當下是居無定所的狀態,他就很容易被忘記他也是老人,現在也是老人,或是他是身心障礙者甚至他是一個無家可歸,可能是受到家暴力家的婦女,他會被遺忘這些身份,僅僅因為他現在居無定所,就是他資源匱乏到居無定所"},{"start":9707.978,"end":9708.318,"text":"第三個我要提的是"},{"start":9738.403,"end":9751.963,"text":"目前對於無家者的處遇或者是提供的協助有一塊就是很重要的是中繼收容的處所那在這樣子的一個中繼收容單位裡面其實我們自己覺得很缺乏性別意識的這個"},{"start":9754.346,"end":9779.612,"text":"就是缺乏這個意識那因為我們其實在實務上遇到無家者的成因其實大概有一個很大的原因是因為他們可能是性少數或者是跨性別者然後或者是因為這樣的議題所以其實是跟家庭關係決裂的所以因為是這樣的原因導致他離家然後流落街頭但是在這樣的重機收容處所的安排上面其實並沒有去考慮到這個點"},{"start":9780.592,"end":9780.692,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":9805.071,"end":9805.271,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":9820.416,"end":9820.576,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9842.313,"end":9842.733,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":9862.868,"end":9884.593,"text":"就是可以真的從根本上的價值觀去翻轉就是不要再把這群人就是視作為是一種怎麼講就是異類然後覺得他不應該在制度裡面被處理因為我們曾經在不管是在社會住宅的議題上或者是在社救法的這些議題上當我們去討論到遊民的需求的時候很常會遇到公部門的官員就會說"},{"start":9885.413,"end":9901.874,"text":"這些人他們很極端質﹚收入嚴重的偏低﹚而且他們不是不要住嗎﹚那把他們放在這邊討論到底是為什麼我們其實在很多的正式的公聽會的場合我們都遇到公部門的官員給我們這樣的回應那我們自己覺得這個其實是在"},{"start":9903.576,"end":9903.816,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":9921.536,"end":9947.973,"text":"真的可以去除了人權以外我覺得包含像貧窮、多元文化、性別還有就是就是我覺得應該在這些觀念上都要能夠真正的而且不是只有心訊是一直要在他們漫長的職業生涯裡面其實這些觀念都很需要是與時俱進的所以我們希望是真的在公務人員的像這些像有關人權或者是多元文化的一些議題上面的觀念可以一直有"},{"start":9948.914,"end":9949.054,"text":"以上,謝謝"},{"start":9969.124,"end":9969.805,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9987.386,"end":9988.087,"text":"請教育部及衛福部回應"},{"start":10006.85,"end":10007.17,"text":"教育部林次長"},{"start":10038.497,"end":10064.384,"text":"主席以及與會的各位夥伴、各位先進首先非常感謝我們歡迎召集委員特別召開今天如何讓每一個人在臺灣有尊嚴的生活的一個公聽會就有關人權、性平、反霸凌、反歧視還有貧窮教育的相關的議題那麼聆聽各位學者專家以及與會各位代表提供的很多的一些的意見"},{"start":10066.945,"end":10085.94,"text":"提供作為教育部未來在嚴定政策或者是相關措施的一個參考非常謝謝大家提供寶貴的一個意見就今天的公聽會裡面大家所提到的相關問題我盡可能來做一些的回答首先的部分的話就整體性的市長你可以接近麥克風一點"},{"start":10087.681,"end":10100.831,"text":"整體性的一個部分所提到的包含了這個有關人權教育的相關的議題我想教育部作為教育行政的一個主管機關"},{"start":10102.612,"end":10126.346,"text":"也會透過教育的設計跟作為提供學校落實、平等與不歧視的指引跟方針有系統的而且全面性的來深耕教育現場的人權保障讓校園內的每一個人都能夠理解到自己的權益願意而且能夠主張自己的權益同時也能夠尊重他人的權益深化價值而能夠主動關懷人權相關的議題並給予捍衛"},{"start":10131.349,"end":10154.35,"text":"所以教育部針對有關人權整體性的部分也推動了這個人權與公民教育的一個促進的一個相關的一個方案那也希望用系統性、整合性、全面性跟實踐性、延續性跟前瞻性的這個原則來營造友善校園的相關的環境剛剛大家也提到的就是有關"},{"start":10155.372,"end":10158.116,"text":"各學校有三校園執行狀況教育部也"},{"start":10163.02,"end":10182.834,"text":"為了協助各級學校在人權環境保護的一個現況作為評估的工具所以也實施了友善校園人權環境的一個指標在大專校園以及高級中等學校的部分都包含提供了相關的指標跟指引輔導大專校園來進行自我的檢核"},{"start":10185.536,"end":10207.722,"text":"高級中等學校部門也會督促地方政府確實來進行規劃抽樣的檢核也納入為自我評估各縣市執行的情形也會納入到中央對直轄市及縣市政府一般教育補助的考核項目希望能夠來落實推動"},{"start":10210.862,"end":10230.868,"text":"整體性的部分先做以上的回答今天設定的四個議題的部分我來分別做一個敘述第一個的部分針對有關性別平等教育的議題性別平等教育法在今年的8月份剛剛才修正通過"},{"start":10233.889,"end":10233.989,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":10251.067,"end":10278.122,"text":"性別平等教育委員會：加強學校人員的徵能培訓：辦理學校人員多元性別議題的研習：同時在硬體建設的部分：設置性別友善的廁所：性別友善的宿舍：提供多元生理的用品這些的部分：也都在近期相關政策裡面：一起來做一些推動"},{"start":10279.282,"end":10280.143,"text":"至於剛剛提到的幾個議題的部分針對"},{"start":10287.202,"end":10314.394,"text":"性別在校園裡發生有關性別歧視的相關行為與言語處置的部分依照《性別評審教育法》生對生或教職員對生有性別歧視等不受歡迎且與性或性別有關言詞或行為致影響他人之人格尊嚴者被害學生可以向學校申請調查"},{"start":10315.234,"end":10339.921,"text":"任何人也可以來做一個檢舉同時呢這個友善校園的這個環境各個學校也必須依照性別平等教育法第12條的規定來提供性別平等的學習環境尊重及考量學生跟教職員工不同的性別特質性別認同或性傾向並建立了安全的一個校園的空間那有關這個"},{"start":10342.662,"end":10347.67,"text":"同志熱線諮詢協會高志榮高先生提出來的問題建議針對"},{"start":10353.97,"end":10372.277,"text":"這個同志的學生的處境的部分 那麼來進行這個調查 那這個意見的部分 因為考量到性傾向、性別認同 這個都是屬於學生重要的隱私 那學生也未必願意向政府機關來透露"},{"start":10373.758,"end":10400.912,"text":"為了避免學生可能認為有被強迫出軌的疑慮教育部會參考以及願意跟民間單位做一些合作就民間所進行調查結果的部分提供作為本部相關政策的參考另外教育部會持續依照性平法促進性別地位的實質平等消除性別歧視維護人格的尊嚴"},{"start":10402.153,"end":10402.413,"text":"公聽會議：完整會議"},{"start":10413.347,"end":10437.278,"text":"針對陳培宇委員提到有關學校資料表父母稱謂的問題本案的部分在去年的6月份教育部的性平委員會就提出相關的提案所以教育部也在111年7月11日也喊請本部所轄的各級學校以及各個單位"},{"start":10438.218,"end":10455.795,"text":"在去年7月25日以前再次檢視盤整主管業務及所詳的機構學校的表單是不是仍有內容涉及到配偶、家長關係稱謂這些經過上述盤整之後各級學校針對設有父母稱謂的表單"},{"start":10460.88,"end":10486.813,"text":"都已經在今年的8月底完成相關的一個修正這個是有關性別平等教育相關的部分其次針對第二個議題有關特殊教育有關身心障礙學生的CRPD相關的這個議題的部分有關特殊教育法也在112年的6月份也就是今年度的部分剛剛完成這個相關的一個修正"},{"start":10489.114,"end":10516.305,"text":"陳培育委提到目前教育部也針對特殊教育法涉及到40幾個執法的部分目前也都在這個原定當中那也逐步的完成之後也對外來做一個公布那麼至新的這個在這個明年的部分能夠來這個正式來做一個試用那相關的這個授權執法訂定過程當中也都會徵詢各界的相關的一個意見"},{"start":10517.766,"end":10520.069,"text":"委員所提出的相關建議都會納到我們相關的修法裡面來做一個參考其中針對"},{"start":10527.244,"end":10527.284,"text":"副副長"},{"start":10548.145,"end":10567.493,"text":"補充相關資料根據人事總署的回覆最近補充相關資料之後應該會來做一個正式的核定有時候涉及到待遇之舉的部分確實需要各個部會去多做一些溝通不過我想這個部分近期應該會有一個好的成果至於"},{"start":10574.517,"end":10587.069,"text":"有關教師助理員的薪資部分,國教署目前也正在原訂補助直轄市及縣市政府"},{"start":10588.991,"end":10589.031,"text":"國教署"},{"start":10617.393,"end":10640.81,"text":"行政委爭取到的預算明年度的部分在有關特教助理員的經費的部分也會增加目前的了解的部分應該113年可以增加到1.2億元另外的話就有關提升特教服務品質以及減輕特教老師負擔的部分國教署目前也正在就支援班、巡迴班"},{"start":10642.271,"end":10642.411,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":10669.802,"end":10688.549,"text":"第三個議題有關原住民族群的這個相關的議題也會謝謝剛剛東華大學的陳章培倫教授的建議我想針對在課綱有關多元文化以及族群教育的部分"},{"start":10690.53,"end":10692.452,"text":"成章培倫委員教授"},{"start":10705.08,"end":10727.209,"text":"在早上我的口頭報告以及書面的報告裡面大概都我就不再贅述了那針對陳昌委員所提出來的兩個建議的部分的話包含針對這個族群歧視的部分的話再盤點一下各項可以在做什麼樣子的事情那也建議說是不是類似像講成辦法的部分是不是可以參照性平相關規定"},{"start":10730.151,"end":10757.05,"text":"反族群、族群歧視的部分也能夠納進去做一個檢討來提高意識我請國教署的部分來做一個延參處理至於有關教育基本法、反歧視等等的一些相關文字能夠更明確的定定同時如果不涉及包含一些刑法等等這些"},{"start":10757.67,"end":10779.407,"text":"主法的相關規定的部分可以先行來執行我想這個部分我們會參佐陳昌培論委員教授的建議來做一個處理至於有關第四個議題有關貧窮教育今天因為時間上的一個關係所以我大概在早上的口頭報告的部分主要針對有關學雜費減免以及補助的部分"},{"start":10784.07,"end":10785.691,"text":"政府對外公布明年2月份起包括高中職全部免學費"},{"start":10805.081,"end":10819.089,"text":"大學的部份的話,如果就讀私立的大專校院的話每一年的部份也可以補助3萬元,3.5萬元的這樣子的一個部份除了這個就學經費跟減免跟補助之外的話之外"},{"start":10820.93,"end":10830.078,"text":"提供各類獎助學金、教育儲蓄付、救學勸募及救學貸款等優惠,針對弱勢學生午餐補助"},{"start":10837.544,"end":10857.258,"text":"國教署每年也都編列了經費21億元補助各縣市政府針對這些低收入戶、中低收入、土豪狀況的學生的弱勢經濟權給予這個午餐的一個補助另外各個學校也可以依照各級學校輔助學生就學"},{"start":10858.178,"end":10884.469,"text":"勸募條例的規定透過教育部的教育儲蓄戶進行勸募的活動勸募所得的金額的部分也可以專用在補助經濟弱度學生的學費、雜費、代收、代辦費還有餐費或者是教育相關的生活費用這也是補充第四個議題的說明至於其他事件關係的部分各位與會先進所提供相關的意見我們大概都會記錄下來"},{"start":10885.469,"end":10885.569,"text":"主席"},{"start":10901.474,"end":10902.515,"text":"看衛福部是哪一位代表發言一下"},{"start":10936.001,"end":10937.583,"text":"副副副副副副副副副"},{"start":10953.704,"end":10968.412,"text":"衛福部對於經濟弱勢加護的照顧向來是非常的重視所以我們除了社會救助法之外我們為了擴大照顧這些經濟處境不利者我們也有在各項的福利法規"},{"start":10969.272,"end":10970.693,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10987.227,"end":10987.367,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11006.172,"end":11006.452,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11021.049,"end":11021.129,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11047.664,"end":11068.015,"text":"會透過我們未來的一個社會福利的一個考核的部分然後加強來督導我們的一個地方政府包括我們自己中央部會這一邊就是我們部門的一個就這方面我們會再更加強這個部分的一個應對那也希望就是說這個"},{"start":11069.616,"end":11069.656,"text":"主席"},{"start":11080.329,"end":11080.509,"text":"馬社工"},{"start":11119.291,"end":11139.101,"text":"謝謝主席,然後各位先進,那我這邊想要針對剛剛就是教育部這邊的回應想要多提幾件事情,其實剛剛次長在提到關於貧窮或是經濟或市場的學生的狀態上所舉的例子,然後再次強調都是,所以我們給了很多的經費或是經濟上的支持,然後讓孩子可以好好就學,但"},{"start":11140.321,"end":11165.311,"text":"給錢就沒事這個概念是否也淪為某種歧視啊他缺錢所以我給你錢然後你應該就可以好好發展不我們其實應該多看的是今天整個在談的不管是不同族群或是各種不同的狀態上的一些相對弱勢不利處境的孩子他們需要的是更多元的一些資源然後去看他們全面性的需求而不是說你今天看不到那我就幫你增高你今天沒有錢我就給你錢"},{"start":11165.891,"end":11188.799,"text":"如果這樣就可以解決 那我們需要政府幹嘛 我們就只要發錢就好啦對啊 那所以在這個狀態之下我們應該要看的是我們怎麼給這些經濟弱勢的孩子有更多公平平等的機會這些錢跟這些經濟應該是要回應到這件事情上那另外一個會想要提到的是其實在現在學校教育端很常會談到我們要把家庭的責任納進來讓家長可以在這裡面可以去看到"},{"start":11189.619,"end":11215.18,"text":"其實在這些不同處境的孩子裡面不管像剛剛有提到說像身障的孩子如果他今天家長是單親或是經濟弱勢的孩子他們家裡可能有更多經濟上的壓力跟責任我們不應該讓所有家長都應該要肩負所有責任其實學校端、教育端應該要可以更扛起更多責任去陪伴這些孩子去看見他們家庭的差異然後去接受他們的差異不然的話有時候其實老師是成為那個第一個發出歧視的人"},{"start":11215.6,"end":11242.451,"text":"他會覺得為什麼家長不努力為什麼家長不多做一些事情這是家長應該要負的責任然後當這些歧視這些言論或老師的閒言閒語我們就聽過很多老師會說啊就是你爸媽不好啦這些話出來的時候會成為孩子很多心傷永遠沒有辦法解開的傷然後當這些傷痛出現的時候老師也沒辦法直接承認他是歧視身邊的同學也會開始說啊他們家就是窮啊他們家就沒有錢啊你不知道嗎慢慢的出現之後導致"},{"start":11243.551,"end":11267.964,"text":"導致整個孩子在整個校園環境上是非常有大的落差的我知道主席這邊一直在關心學生輔導法的修法我這邊想多提一件事情就是在這樣的狀態之下很多時候導師會成為這個歧視的主角他講出這些不當言論的時候會害得這些學生他今天想要去向輔導師輔導老師求救的時候導師會把這些人擋住剛剛一直有提到說"},{"start":11268.884,"end":11288.212,"text":"要如何讓適當的人力跟資源可以進來這個系統裡面那我們是不是可以重新想一想孩子在求助的資源上除了申訴 除了走這些很硬的管道不斷的去開委員會弄得好像自己家長跟孩子心裡都很累之外比較柔性的一點的學校就有這些專業輔導人員可不可以讓孩子是有機會可以好好接觸到"},{"start":11288.712,"end":11310.265,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":11311.485,"end":11311.525,"text":"馬明毅議員"},{"start":11331.391,"end":11334.812,"text":"因為剛才的時間沒有很夠我再把我們現場看到比較嚴重的部分在這邊還是想要跟大家說一下"},{"start":11348.118,"end":11352.084,"text":"其實我剛剛牽頭很強調就是意識提升還有就是獨立的監測輔導或者是申訴機制因為其實有太多太多的問題隱藏在校園裡面放在家長的身上然後障礙者的身上"},{"start":11363.42,"end":11370.323,"text":"還有老師的身上其實要怎麼樣把這個聲音發出來而且是安全安心的把這些聲音發出來不會影響在校的一些發展跟成績我覺得這個東西要建立起來才能夠真的達到就是反歧視或平權的一個"},{"start":11379.286,"end":11379.306,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11395.748,"end":11395.768,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11412.799,"end":11415.681,"text":"謝謝我們林鈞傑理事長再來是Chuas Terra教授要發言嗎"},{"start":11442.543,"end":11460.126,"text":"主席 各位委員還有先進那我這邊想要再補充一下我覺得剛剛講到 前面講到說對老師們的這個 就是培訓很重要但我覺得我想 也需要提一件事 可能也需要教育部的協助其實很多時候老師他對 我們也沒有辦法期待老師什麼都懂"},{"start":11460.586,"end":11460.766,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":11489.637,"end":11516.176,"text":"然後如果是性別的議題還可能會找到特定的性別的學者來幫忙協助可是我也必須要講一件事喔原民議題找到原資中心的時候其實我們全台我們自己學校只有兩個原資中心的全職工作者可是我們要輔導全部的原住民我們要陪伴全部的原住民學生同時我們還要推動這個全民原教在校園的推動族群友善的校園推動我們還要現在要面對的就是當校園歧視事件發生的時候我們要接很多的電話要支持這些老師們支持同學們怎麼處理這件事"},{"start":11516.556,"end":11516.656,"text":"吳彥德創辦人"},{"start":11557.774,"end":11571.459,"text":"大家好我想要特別回應Echo 剛才Sivang老師講的我會認為其實在學校產生這種歧視或霸凌行為的時候很多時候是因為我覺得核心關係是壓力也就是說"},{"start":11572.199,"end":11572.219,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11588.624,"end":11616.17,"text":"你都需要很多的空間跟時間你需要有時間慢慢跟他談所以整個核心其實是我覺得跟社工服務個案一樣當我有一個社工要服務很多人的時候我就沒有空間慢慢處理你所以它其實是人數比的問題就是一個老師能照顧多少學生是非常有限的如果我們要深刻的陪伴一些學生我們的人數比就會需要降得非常的低我以我們做無價者服務來說當我們過去一個社工要服務大概40個、80個的無價者的時候他只能跟你5分鐘、3分鐘對談就結束了"},{"start":11617.89,"end":11617.91,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11640.166,"end":11655.179,"text":"情誼教育其實是一個你需要自己先懂 別人才會懂的事情也就是說你如果沒有自我覺察你都感受不到自己的情緒 你無法教別人情緒所以我講個例子一個老師他說他在學校聽到了一個小朋友說就是那些街友他們就是好吃懶做"},{"start":11655.999,"end":11682.11,"text":"這個老師聽到這件事他非常生氣所以他來找我們的時候他是說他要怎麼教育這個孩子因為他覺得這個孩子非常壞其實這個老師這個行為本身也是一個歧視喔他也不能理解這個孩子為什麼要講出這個話因為他內心有憤怒所以老師自己沒有察覺到自己很生氣他就沒有辦法教孩子所以他要帶這個憤怒去教這個孩子的時候孩子只會覺得自己被歧視他也不想跟著孩子講話因為他覺得老師不懂他所以我覺得老師他非常需要支持跟陪伴謝謝"},{"start":11685.481,"end":11685.842,"text":"特教委員會主委"},{"start":11702.119,"end":11716.519,"text":"我這邊就是提一下主要是說剛才大家的先進大家都有提到一些部分那我想提的一個部分是說其實剛剛大家都有提到一個重點就是可能我們對於學校老師所賦予的期待非常的高那我也必須要講像我們現在這麼多的議題"},{"start":11719.082,"end":11747.814,"text":"施問一下我們各種的議題放進去之後不要忘記了在學校的那一群老師總人數就只有這麼多人那剛剛我們也很感謝就是說有很多先進友提到說其實在師生筆的數量上面因為你看現在我們這麼多的議題融入可是例如說我們今天人權議題我們今天反歧視反霸凌可能就是學務處的少數的幾個老師他可能要主責去負責那他要處理這麼多問題的時候他其實就像剛才提到我覺得一個很好建議就是說他有一個尋求資源的一個管道"},{"start":11748.214,"end":11777.94,"text":"那甚至於說在我們現在教育這麼精緻化底下我們有這麼多的議題不再只是學業性的學習的時候我們是不是應該引進更多的相關的資源或專業的人力像剛剛很多的先進他們其實在各個領域的觀點都有非常獨特的一些看法其實這些東西是不是都可以一起跟學校教育做一個適當的資源的整合跟結合讓我們的更多的資源可以在校園裡面提供孩子們或者是老師們更多的一個幫助而不是只寄望說我們今天辦了一場研習大家想想看這些專業絕對不是一朝一夕"},{"start":11778.08,"end":11778.12,"text":"主席"},{"start":11793.159,"end":11793.94,"text":"沛琦同學"},{"start":11826.614,"end":11838.949,"text":"好 大家好 就是這邊是想要小小像回馬世宏剛剛講的就是小孩 經濟弱勢的小孩需要得到就是平均公平發展的機會因為其實在尤其是108課綱之後其實我們講求一個東西是學習歷程檔案然後其實在學習歷程檔案剛推出的時候其實有很多的學生會覺得"},{"start":11846.318,"end":11866.509,"text":"成鄉的貧富差距會造成學習歷程檔案的不公平就是有錢人家的小孩他當然有很多資本他可以去參加很多的活動他可以拿到很多的證書但相對於比較弱勢的小孩他們可能就沒有那麼多的機會可以去參與活動又或者是他們只能真的只能用課堂上原本就有的東西去做成學習歷程檔案然後在這邊因為過去有在討論這件事情的時候其實也知道就是教育部一開始的初衷並不是想要"},{"start":11873.012,"end":11873.212,"text":"小小提醒"},{"start":11897.261,"end":11920.96,"text":"謝謝佩琪提醒經濟弱勢的學生我們如何輔導讓他知道其實學習歷程反映的是軌跡不一定是資源參加活動的多少我想因為時間的緣故我是不是可以請我們社長再次回應一下就您能回應的部分回應不能的部分我們就看一起怎麼樣繼續努力好嗎或是遇到的困難可以告訴大家"},{"start":11922.021,"end":11948.122,"text":"好 謝謝歡迎召委還有各位先進剛剛補充了相關議題的部分我簡要做說明一下第一個的部分剛剛提到的有關弱勢學生那個經濟弱勢學生剛剛的部分一開始我大概就已經有就整體性的我想在校園裡面去營造一個友善的一個校園空間落實這個平等跟不歧視的這樣子的一個環境"},{"start":11949.463,"end":11972.074,"text":"我想這個大概已經整體做了一個說明我只是特別針對那個經濟補助的部分以及相關的一些弱勢補助的時候再做一些補充說明我想這個部分的話也謝謝幫剛剛馬社工的一個一個提醒那確實在有關不管是剛剛提到的性別評點教育法或者特殊教育法法都剛剛才完成相關的一個修正"},{"start":11972.614,"end":11972.634,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11987.551,"end":11987.731,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":12017.296,"end":12042.853,"text":"這個目前的學生輔導法的部分也在這個嚴定在這個修正當中那包含了特殊教育剛剛也修正過那基本上包含了對特殊教育尤其身心障礙學生的這個照顧包含剛剛大家也關心到的特教助理員或者是特教學生的相關的一個照顧相關的一個支持支援的一個系統或者是目前在學生輔導法裡面在嚴定過程當中對於這個大專校園這個"},{"start":12046.776,"end":12065.953,"text":"福島人員的私生比現在是1比1200未來逐步朝向1比900的目標目前就有關人員的增資跟增加的部分或者是在一些耐域福利的部分去做一些考量我想這個部分都已經納到這裡面我們會在後續的部分審慎做一個考慮"},{"start":12069.216,"end":12069.456,"text":"林俊傑議員"},{"start":12089.754,"end":12089.894,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":12109.206,"end":12137.296,"text":"緩定原住民族及多元文化教育相關案例以校園歧視事件為例在舉出團會議或學校行政院或相關研習加強來做一些宣導未來有關歧視相關案例的部分我會做一些收整作為宣導、活動或相關教材的參考第三個部分就是有關"},{"start":12138.547,"end":12157.612,"text":"我們當然希望教授所提出來的我們也認同剛剛提到的老師的培訓真的是非常非常重要但是老師的包含了他的輔導的機制以及支持陪伴的這樣子的一個"},{"start":12158.912,"end":12158.932,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12182.657,"end":12182.797,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12199.139,"end":12199.239,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":12220.823,"end":12240.34,"text":"有些大概已經有回應了,包含剛剛提到的教師、情緒的教育,包含老師本身也是我想這個部分也避免老師成為歧視學生的言語,或者歧視學生的一個對象我想這個部分未來我們會加強,包含學校人員跟教師相關的研習的活動"},{"start":12243.382,"end":12268.028,"text":"至於有關剛剛黃沛琦同學提到的有關對經濟弱勢學生的不希望能夠有公平對待的機會我想這個部分除了剛剛提到的我們的大學的指定考試的入學或者是學測的入學考試之後的多元入學的管道除了登記分發、甄選入學之外"},{"start":12269.168,"end":12272.009,"text":"教育部也一再強調學習歷程檔案不無視在做軍備競賽"},{"start":12299.096,"end":12299.797,"text":"教育及文化委員會委員會長"},{"start":12314.224,"end":12314.244,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12332.486,"end":12333.307,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12362.486,"end":12362.586,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":12390.697,"end":12390.777,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":12419.626,"end":12446.313,"text":"進行相關的研究了解歧視行為的成因還有教育的解方教育現場的解方我自己在一年多前到德國進行參訪的時候有特別針對反霸凌的部分問他們怎麼做聽到蠻多他們有的手冊跟進行方式至少跟我們回應的地方政府的"},{"start":12446.693,"end":12475.04,"text":"教育官員是非常的熟悉跟了解這是教育現場的重要問題那我相信我們臺灣也可以學習其他國家的經驗那除了你們現在進行的方式之外那我們不能把問題個別化那因為你們是分為國教、高教、中生教育也會區分學生、教師、教材等可是其實這是一個系統性的問題如何系統性的改變那如何在就是說成因跟解方的部分就是說"},{"start":12475.7,"end":12475.72,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12505.6,"end":12510.503,"text":"謝謝主席的回應其實我這邊想要再補充一下因為剛才就是次長有說以原住民為例已經有在做進行這樣的一個工作"},{"start":12530.496,"end":12537.594,"text":"我要說的是說障礙者其實他的需求跟多元性又更複雜其實很多在學校裡面"},{"start":12538.942,"end":12549.69,"text":"小朋友或者是老師們不太了解的時候他不小心就會做了歧視的行為或者是認為說給障礙者多一點考試時間或者是障礙者可以多一點不同的一些措施的時候其他小朋友就會認為這是特權對那其實有時候我們的需求會跟一般人不太一樣我覺得要釐清那個差異哪些是特權哪一些是真的需求我覺得障礙者可能會需要更多這種的一個歧視的案例累積跟反霸凌的那個"},{"start":12569.165,"end":12570.205,"text":"三個月內給我們初步報告"},{"start":12591.173,"end":12614.933,"text":"以下依據立法院職權行使法第58條的規定委員會應該在公聽會終結後10日內依出席者所提供之正反意見提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者那第59條規定公聽會報告作為審查該特定議案之參考所以我們會把各位的發言意見及所有的書面資料"},{"start":12615.513,"end":12637.411,"text":"中和歸納會編陳冊：送交本院：全體委員及所有出席的與會貴賓最後非常感謝各位出席者今天來參加我們教育文化委員會的公聽會作為召委我今天覺得收穫非常的豐富謝謝你們的寶貴意見我們會審慎考量作為未來修法跟政策的依據"},{"start":12638.512,"end":12653.777,"text":"謝謝大家,請大家移動到前面,我們在這個台子前面能夠合照一下好嗎?就是我們的與會專家,我們那個官員可以一起拍照嗎?歡迎一起過來拍照,我們是教文委員會的正式的會議"},{"start":12668.655,"end":12680.126,"text":"請大家那個都待到最後了就來多派一張那個重要的紀念獎那個次長你代表教育部不要站在中間啊在這邊我們大家那個依據"},{"start":12695.841,"end":12697.042,"text":"有些有些可以來右邊這邊"},{"start":12804.803,"end":12804.823,"text":"公聽會議"}]}},{"id":"148918","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148918","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c048983d7dc8b6b8c944f73b9825177cacbc986728e607a03226e64d1a1634640805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財 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- 09:07:51","影片長度":"00:03:19","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」：(一)審查委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。二、「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之二條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查時代力量黨團擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員張其祿等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第五條之一及第二十條之一條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員陳明文等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第七條及第二十二條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員羅美玲等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員王美惠等22人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十)審查委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十一)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查中華民國射擊活動暨射擊器材權益促進會為建議修正槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請願文書1案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-12"},"date":"2023-12-07","duration":199,"end_time":"2023-12-07T09:07:51+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-07T09:04:32+08:00","features":[],"type":"Clip"}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}