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這欺騙人才是欺騙人 另外我永遠都站在坐在這裡好 他有在理事 學長楊碧雄他也有寫一些東西雖然對我來講 我感覺他的攻擊 我覺得我都無所謂因為每一個人都有發言的前提的義務我尊重你的發言 那我也不會說誰罵我 我就是自己的學長或是"},{"start":2550.698,"end":2560.87,"text":"讓跟他處得非常不愉快,尤其在選舉再集的時候,難免各黨對於他所比較在意的部分,比如中國介入選舉,這問題是很嚴重。"},{"start":2564.362,"end":2581.219,"text":"那當然這個讓陸委員要叫陸委員說明清楚,海軍會說明清楚,凍結,但後來他也撤案了。彼此都有這種現象,今天不管怎麼樣"},{"start":2582.711,"end":2609.343,"text":"也關於三年海區會、四年海區會的預算,因為黨團在開期的會議,我從來是不去開期的會議,所以很重大事情。所以我們黨團每天都有幹事長及書記長,那郭文亮也是一樣,三黨天天開期就罵我們,我們就回禁回去。這個地方每天也要保守會議,所謂的在黨公職、執行黨、執行黨當然必須忍受嘛。"},{"start":2610.644,"end":2633.626,"text":"在野黨挑戰執政黨,這是天經地義。那執政黨的回應也是天經地義。那我覺得大可不必如此做文章。當然今天比較就是說,他們提案是謝宥鴻委員簽的。也就是說他該黨的文章到底是正宗總召要簽名嗎?那這是不知道為什麼全部謝宥鴻簽名。"},{"start":2635.834,"end":2651.648,"text":"那於是乎我們的剛才市長就以這個東西來被協調委員有些維持,有些維持乃至於攻擊,那把吳亦寧找來了,那這個都是選舉操作啦"},{"start":2653.117,"end":2670.672,"text":"那像我當總召有習慣做提案要我簽名,但我們都會勾力啦。基本上比較不適合的我們內部會處理。那今天不管怎麼樣,第一個這沒有所謂不尊重院長。"},{"start":2671.738,"end":2687.205,"text":"那以院長不測,朝委長照的攻防,也沒有所謂不尊重立法院,都沒有。也沒有所謂不尊重朝委協商,只能勉強可以講說,這樣的話對於朝委協商分為會有些質辯而已啦。"},{"start":2691.367,"end":2711.784,"text":"我們常常在這裡吵一場,我們常常有跟邱永志、跟國民黨常常噢噢鬧,上個禮拜也跟邱英樹也噢噢鬧,這難免了吧。協商在之間大家有不同意見表達,只是講話聲量以及講話道理的問題來評斷這些事情而已。那這些都會直播了,誰都可以看得到。所以我比較傾向於就是說,"},{"start":2713.564,"end":2716.606,"text":"所以算起來這個禮拜一、二、三、四、五天,下禮拜一、二"},{"start":2744.248,"end":2760.403,"text":"一、二、三、一、二、七公共天。七個公共天我們要處理哪些事情?第一個,要把總預算先處理完畢。那總預算現在大概兩、三天按了,又不會再進一再一溝通。"},{"start":2761.536,"end":2790.349,"text":"那剩下我們還有法案要處理,包括防護稅條例,那本來今天要跟戰友要跟他們談有關守護稅扣除的問題,都要談嘛。所以還有一些法案還有預算,在這個七個共同點裡面要全部預完整。坦白講這本來就是一個非常緊迫的行為。那我估計也有要談到加班啊,等等問題。"},{"start":2791.55,"end":2812.321,"text":"那今天走了以後,勢必又壓縮了,剩下六個工作天,這是何其緊張的時候。我還在這裡,我今天有打電話跟陳明中講說,那這個擦槍走火的事情很難免的嘛。政治、工房、服務也要麻煩,也一定的。其實記者也沒有在說好話啦。"},{"start":2814.142,"end":2842.675,"text":"我常常被罵,但是我當了一個執政黨總召的話,我是覺得敵人攻擊是我身上的信章,我也不會憂慘畏懼每一個人都可以,這邊罵來罵去都可以,所以我還是在這裡很懇求拜託國民黨,不然再一次跑去還是請院長或是秘書長我們一起,假如今天不適合再回來的話"},{"start":2843.735,"end":2846.257,"text":"明天表決以後是不是有機會我們再回頭坐下來好好談?"},{"start":2860.732,"end":2883.818,"text":"我會找村民眾委員再去當面跟他溝通。我希望我們都有共同責任。雖然走了以後,剩下我們三個在這裡期待,這個要四個人才會成交,大家一起來見國民黨回來協商。這是我的基本立場。"},{"start":2886.439,"end":2910.368,"text":"有關之間的攻防我想我們不可能為了這個事情可以私下去溝通了解可以但是已經大家逼得罵來罵去就已經負損然所了那我還是會希望我們黨團在最後這一個禮拜的時間那委員之間彼此的"},{"start":2911.397,"end":2939.402,"text":"的工房還是少一點,要罵整個政黨對立的來談嘛,大家都都是董事嘛,也許有人再過幾天以後,休會以後,就在立法院已經以後再也不會見面,那所以還是臨時大家協商難免會有這樣,還是要雞熊下足"},{"start":2940.382,"end":2958.116,"text":"要對這個總預算、要對這個所有法案來負責,我們希望第十屆能夠在如期在19號以後,發一個美好的Ending,那把總預算以及法案該處理都處理完畢,以上。"},{"start":2963.581,"end":2991.158,"text":"這個我們的立場其實非常簡單因為總預算當然就是一定這個預算當然是一定要審那這個再怎麼樣的問題的話都應該到黨團協商這邊來談那這個另外一個就是說今天的第三案是有關這個停會案那我們當然再度表示反對因為你時間已經這麼緊迫的情況之下那你又"},{"start":2992.295,"end":2992.875,"text":"我剛剛看一下我是在轉貼媒體的報導"},{"start":3017.301,"end":3033.613,"text":"我轉貼媒體的報導那這不是輸贏的事情這是公事因為這個最低工資法那我的主張就是說應該跟CPI去做聯動那你的說法是說權力的擁有者不敢濫用權力這當然不對"},{"start":3034.914,"end":3051.045,"text":"這當然就是說你主要就是為什麼要有這個最低工資法當然是在法規範要拘束這個權力的擁有者然後讓他可以讓基本的勞工得到這個最起碼的一個確保那就是說有關你如果說"},{"start":3054.767,"end":3071.871,"text":"為這個現在又沒辦法審的情況之下那之後又有其他的預算案還有這個防護稅條例或者是說其他零零種種的法案的話那當然這個時間又會更壓縮所以就這部分的話又再加上"},{"start":3073.221,"end":3100.436,"text":"還要停會,到底剩下還有多少的時間可以去審這些法案跟預算,所以我覺得這個是應該是要非常謹慎的啦。好,謝謝。那邱總統,民眾?好,謝謝院長還有各黨代表。我想民眾黨的態度非常的明確,我們還是希望可以在法定會期內把總預算完成審查,這是基本的態度。"},{"start":3101.056,"end":3129.193,"text":"但是在整個朝野協商的過程因為現在主要當然面臨大選那各政黨都有非常多的政治攻防但是我們認為在總預算的部分因為老實講113年度的這個中央政府總預算後面到底是哪一個政黨執政其實都還不確定我希望大家還是比較用客觀理性的方式來去討論這樣的問題那包含立院黨團之間其實在協商的氛圍我個人是認為非常重要的"},{"start":3129.813,"end":3146.748,"text":"所以真的不必要的這種政治攻防跟這個所謂執政黨的委員去監督在野黨的委員的提案甚至拿出來做政治攻擊我認為這是大可不必因為預算的提案本來就是各政黨各委員身為民意代表基本的一個權益"},{"start":3148.189,"end":3148.549,"text":"三、研商議員提案"},{"start":3166.119,"end":3190.557,"text":"行業非營業基金看起來這個會計是沒有辦法但我們還是認為不應該為了選舉而帶動立法跟預算的監督那包含剛剛談到最低公司法跟囤房稅其實都要來去處理尤其是囤房稅2.0的這個房屋稅部分條文修正草案這個部分我們認為都應該在其實都要在這個月應該要把它去做完成所以針對停會的部分我們還是反對"},{"start":3191.838,"end":3215.766,"text":"再來針對這次的預算提案其實部會在跟我們協商的時候我們還是認為這個行政部會報告室可能這兩屆因為民進黨實質過半在溝通上我覺得還是比較強勢的很多的部分本來這個像財政部我們這次通案第一案當然沒有提到但是我還是簡單講一下針對這個常態型稅收超增保留的部分其實"},{"start":3219.908,"end":3247.226,"text":"公布今年前十個月的稅收三兆兩百二十三億全年的稅收估計將超過預算三千至三千七百億當時我們財政部中部長11月22號就來立法院質詢表示這個狀況稅客收入執行超過預算的部分會優先還債我想這是各黨的共識所以民眾黨這次在通案提案也有提要稅收"},{"start":3247.426,"end":3249.829,"text":"負稅署副署長陳慧琦在溝通的過程中表示財委會已經決議"},{"start":3262.463,"end":3281.369,"text":"在這個部分增列150億而且已經成立稅收估測專案小組因此明年的稅收時增數與預算數應該不會相差太遠那經過溝通之後本黨團的這個提案他們建議是說可以改增列100億現場官員都沒有異議也允諾會文字修正"},{"start":3281.869,"end":3296.345,"text":"其實今天不知道為什麼12月11號馬上就是可能回去報告了可能這個部長是不是又不同意還是怎麼樣今天國會聯絡人來本黨團的時候表示財政部欠男伴女那該提案還是要保留"},{"start":3296.886,"end":3296.986,"text":"議員提案"},{"start":3314.542,"end":3332.248,"text":"三個月就要改六個月那這樣子的一個我覺得這樣的一個預算行政部會傲慢的溝通品質這並不是一個好的協商的一個狀況所以我想對於這種違反信任原則的溝通我深表遺憾我認為這不是一個好的溝通的方式"},{"start":3334.01,"end":3347.031,"text":"這個會期是第十屆最後一個預算會期我希望大家還是本著互信的原則跟實事求是的態度來溝通預算如果是這樣子的方式的話那我們後面就不要溝通了我們就全部用表決的方式好不好到以上"},{"start":3349.444,"end":3374.882,"text":"針對剛才兩位所談有基本問題就是說有關於總預算以及法案我們絕對能夠在庭會前如期完成這點請不要擔心都提早做很好的安排現在差不多該處理都處理所以用這個理由來說不能庭會要看到社會底我是覺得這個是不存在的不可以這樣"},{"start":3376.743,"end":3398.034,"text":"至於所謂剛談到一些個案的問題,在通案裡面來討論,尤其你們第一個案子提要增加稅務三千億,當然財政部這麼大一個數字談判持平的論,這個應該可以溝通的,有的時候不可能是增加稅務三千億。"},{"start":3399.475,"end":3419.806,"text":"至於多少,剩下多少,我們最後在這裡來談因為不管各部會,各部會的意見怎麼樣,要去跟你們溝通溝通結果有沒有結果,乃至於有結果,其實讓回到這裡來因為將來表決是黨團立法委員在表決,不是副會首長在表決所以我們都會負起責任來"},{"start":3421.566,"end":3435.411,"text":"結論是如您所講,實事求是的。那我們已經大概相處了四年,彼此都有良好的互信基礎吧。應該怎麼溝通大家都很清楚。那剩下的部分就是說報告是先……"},{"start":3438.632,"end":3454.378,"text":"所以說先去還債還是要怎麼處理,那個都有一定的法基礎。當然各黨有他偵測性的看法。我覺得現在就進入"},{"start":3458.3,"end":3480.67,"text":"通關的主條討論的話我當然也歡迎但是國務黨不在那我看法就是說請各位放心我們不要為了不停會而不停會絕對能夠在49號以後所有事情能夠完成我是負擔負責在處理所有法案的進度包括從委員會一開始有關停會就是說"},{"start":3482.531,"end":3508.939,"text":"一個月以前就提出,我們知道這個東西要大家都同意有點困難那要兩大黨都同意你們都不同意,那只有明年表決嘛,已經時間到了啊這照藝術程序來講,也都一定要處理因為我們必須負責整個議程的順利,能夠順利完成所以大家還是心明氣合啊因為總預算剛才有講到就是說"},{"start":3510.816,"end":3537.401,"text":"每一黨都想說明年選舉結果來當總統除非說是沒有希望要總預算隨便處理那到底誰用得到用不到還不知道那通常在最後一個每一屆的最後會期要選舉總預算處理的時候大家都都會如期完成的"},{"start":3538.221,"end":3556.134,"text":"通常三點數也固定上會比較保守,比較保守。我覺得我們明天是不是想辦法再回來,大家吵吵協商。有關同行稅大概差一點不多,法案的差一點不多。"},{"start":3559.156,"end":3583.074,"text":"法案比較好處理。預算的話,你說大家都要擺盪,就提了幾千個案子,然後來卡住,那不能通過。這個選民會看待的。台灣老百姓我會看待。所以說,院長我們大家一起努力,來跟國民黨談,明天還是要回來處理。但是明天我們希望第一個要談什麼?談三減數多少。這是最關鍵。"},{"start":3584.295,"end":3603.444,"text":"雖然是談好的時候,當然大家都知道後面怎麼處理,還有通關怎麼處理,有些違反計畫算多少、小新計畫算多少這一路的消息主席總坐在那裡,他一定有辦法把各位的喜酒弄得一個天衣無縫的表格出來,一毛錢都不會差的好不好"},{"start":3604.244,"end":3615.735,"text":"所以今天很遺憾,當然遺憾歸遺憾,這個是我們必須承受的,也必須忍耐,期待明天我們能夠在下面,來見面好好來談。"},{"start":3618.854,"end":3641.162,"text":"好 那就 謝謝大家 我在這邊跟大家報告一下因為我們會期總是到12月31號之前要結束尤其這一個會期是預算會期所以我們最好大家全力以赴 盡量溝通協調"},{"start":3642.282,"end":3661.813,"text":"所以我在這邊就有四點向大家報告第一點有關預算案部分請各黨團還是要繼續多溝通並能在座會期完成預算案的三讀程序這個是第一點第二點有關扁院擴建案"},{"start":3662.373,"end":3675.217,"text":"如果各黨團沒有反對意見的話,貶案原則上貶借要完成,如果沒有完成,我們就下一屆繼續處理。第三,有關於停會案,請各黨團繼續溝通,後續則依議事規範進行處理。第四,另外,貶會期是預決算會期,"},{"start":3689.841,"end":3698.771,"text":"希望預算案大家一定要繼續溝通至於結算案結算報告案也請各黨團都遵守考量"},{"start":3708.078,"end":3725.389,"text":"下屆反正 反正下屆要尊重新的委員嘛 不能在這裡做任何決議都沒有用嘛還是要尊重新的委員 繼續討論沒有關係啊但是要尊重新的委員啦 普通事情都是這期不聯繫的嘛反正院長你還要做事我會支持你啦"}]}},{"id":"148985","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148985","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720292c03bf0ae76a9efb94fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a032268624459ca2ade4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"12:08:07 - 12:23:07","影片長度":"00:15:00","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":900,"end_time":"2023-12-11T12:23:07+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T12:08:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":882,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（12時8分）謝謝召委，有請內政部林右昌部長，還有警政署黃署長。"],["主席：林部長、黃署長請。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長、署長，有幾個問題要來就教跟建議。目前我們各縣市地方警察局的設置標準，是按照各地方警察局的轄區人口數核算設置的員額，再分別以面積、機動車輛數還有犯罪率去核算員額的增置，那以目前來看，直轄市350人設置一個員額，省轄市跟轄區人口50萬以上或區內有國際機場、港口的縣市，500人就多一個就對了，其他各縣市警察局人口就以700人來設置一個員額，其他的部分我就不再贅述了。如果按照轄區人口數跟面積來做基礎，並且以轄區內的犯罪率等一併考量來增加員額，確實是一個好方法，可是本席認為這中間有一個盲點，署長，你聽聽看，就是目前警政署統計轄區人口數都是以內政部的戶口統計月報為基礎，可是像林部長，可能因為你本來是基隆市市長，戶口可能在那裡，擔任部長後在臺北上班，但全臺走來走去，甚至還有很多北漂族、南漂族，戶籍跟真正的居住地其實是不一樣的。本席是認為以新北市來看，新北市人口數403萬594人，但是根據電信信令人口的統計資料，平日夜間新北市就高達440萬4,882人，這是一個有一段差距的數字。目前設置規則裡面的盲點就是如果按照轄區人口數，到了夜間的高人口數尖峰時段，可能一個員警平均照顧的人數就會上升，當然就會增加員警執勤上的負擔，這就是本席今天想要請教署長的，目前員警設置規則存在這樣一個盲點，我具體建議，既然內政部現在都已經有統計資料，那警政署是不是把它納入參考去做微幅調整，來達到更好的平衡，請教署長。"],["黃署長明昭：謝謝委員關心這個議題，我想我們剛剛所設置的標準，除了人口面積、車輛數、犯罪率以外，當然還要包含治安要點要維持的，還有特勤的頻率，這會動員滿多人力的。所以你看為什麼臺北市相對的警力數會比新北市還高一點，但是它人口數還是少，這就是因為有考量到其他因素所做的編制。剛剛您所提醒的確實是一個盲點，請容我們會後來研議，夜間人數增加那麼多，但警力還是維持平時的警力數，是不是要做一個微調，我們再來研議。"],["莊委員瑞雄：因為我們畢竟有這個標準，人口在尖峰時段也確實有那麼多，這又不是無中生有，警力的配置、對員警執勤上的負擔，你去做一個調整，我覺得才是與時俱進。"],["黃署長明昭：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：署長請回。","我要請教部長的就是政府如何去訂定合理的房屋貸款成數，你們應該看到了，昨天你也被問到，在野黨總統候選人侯友宜提出了一個政見，喊出購屋貸款提升到1,500萬，貸款比率100%，前5年只須償還利息，政府再補貼0.5%。這個周末我看侯友宜在造勢的時候除了宣傳他的政見以外，他還痛批說你跟年輕人距離太遠，說執政黨完全不瞭解年輕人的痛苦。這個我聽了是很不以為然，為什麼很不以為然呢？你說貸款1,500萬頭期款全部都由政府來負擔，我如果是年輕人，我聽到會覺得很爽，你知不知道？我聽起來我會很「茫」，會想哪有這麼好的，都不用準備錢就可以買房子了？可是冷靜下來以後想一想，這是一顆毒蘋果，為什麼是一顆毒蘋果呢？假設都在不升息的情況之下，而且貸款的金額是1,500萬，以臺銀現在的房貸2.06%來計算，前5年政府補貼0.5%，就是2.06%減掉0.5%，剩下1.56%，那每一期本利和差不多1萬9,500元，當然前5年本是0；5年過後政府補貼0.125%，就是2.06%減掉0.125%，就等於1.935%，每一期還款本利和會高達6萬3,000元，夭壽！5年後除非薪水有辦法一直增加，你知道嗎？這個政策落實了以後，我反而會擔心，提出這個政策的人，年輕人會喜歡，可是你讓他去沉澱以後，他會覺得真的可以嗎？譬如美國金融危機就是一個次貸危機，前5年1萬9,500元，我看大多數人都付得起，年輕人也會開心，但是第6年以後負擔將近3.2倍，轉售又綁10年，這對一個年輕人來說，我會覺得說除非我的薪水增加很多，不然會有更大的負擔。","所以我請教部長，對侯友宜這樣的主張，我很擔心會有當沖變成隔代沖的風險，前5年我負擔得起，第6年開始付3.2倍，買房以後，除非薪水有增加，或是去簽到「特仔尾」，或是有其他的投資收入，否則確實是會還款還到老以後，變成現在是在幫助年輕人，其實也會造成很大的負擔。尤其我更擔心的是什麼呢？我更擔心的就是，現在這1,500萬你把它當成一個門檻，我以後中古屋出售，變相都會抬高，如果我是建商，把它拉到1,500萬以後，成屋蓋出來就都要1,500萬啦！所以部長你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["林部長右昌：我想任何的購買行為都應該是理性的，第二個你必須要考慮的是可負擔。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對。"],["林部長右昌：衝動的購買行為，這個通常都是比較不好的，特別是購屋的金額很大。剛剛在講所謂的免頭期款並不是不用還，他還是要還，因為總……"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然。"],["林部長右昌：因為總價並沒有改變……"],["莊委員瑞雄：頭5年讓你比較爽，都不用動這樣子。"],["林部長右昌：是，但是5年之後就會有還款的問題，因為會把原本你應該要還的全部加上來，也就是比起支付頭期款，你必須還更多錢，總價不變的狀況之下，在第5年之後。所以剛剛提到，如果是用1,500萬免頭期款來算的話，等於那個總價的金額大概是1,875萬，原本你要付375萬的頭期款，如果在這樣的狀況下不用付，但是5年之後你還是要回頭還那375萬的本金。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊！"],["林部長右昌：所以他的負擔其實是更加重。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你擔憂的是什麼？"],["林部長右昌：我擔心的是，我們政府的政策必須要穩健；第二個，我們現在的方式都是鼓勵儲蓄，然後政府最後幫你一把，也就是有相關優惠利率的提供。你支付了所謂的頭期款之後，第一個是掂量自己購屋的能力，買適合的房子；第二個是你有真正能夠還款這樣子的能力之配套。這個時間是很長，因為還款的貸款期限大概是20到30年的時間，所以必須要考慮到整個合理的購買能力。"],["莊委員瑞雄：任何一個負責任的政府，要看看你要解決的到底是什麼啦！這一題要講的，其實也叫做居住正義，居住正義這個東西就是地方政府、中央政府，任何一個政府，它們全部都有責任。這就是怎麼樣，你知道嗎？地方政府應該做的事情，譬如社會住宅，新北市到最後等於後面幾乎都要停頓了，做不夠之後，它現在開始要競速、要飆車，我都很擔心這一題它會翻車啦！為什麼呢？你看它喔！政府一直在強調居住正義，本來我們要減輕年輕人跟租屋族的負擔，以社會住宅來看的話，第一階段，本來政府在幫忙地方政府、資金挹注，還幫忙找土地，譬如第一階段在臺北市我們補助48億；第二階段，在110年中央政府投入了直接興建社會住宅。","我們從修法面來看，這個我感受特別深刻，我在第8屆的時候都沒有人在談這個，是蔡政府上來，到第9屆我們才開始去談，2017年的時候我們去修住宅法，增訂中央主管機關為興辦的一個主體，以前是地方政府蓋，中央給你錢、幫你一起找土地，現在覺得不夠之後，我們把它修法，中央政府直接下場，我們也可以蓋。然後蔡政府上來以後，我相信很多的措施，包括你看連整個社宅法，我們不斷地去做修改，連社宅弱勢比例我們從10%升到30%，現在又要變成40%，上個月也已經放寬了嘛！育有未成年子女家庭符合社會住宅弱勢的資格，本來是3個，現在都把它放寬降低到2個。","所以我是認為，就這一條，部長剛才也在這裡正面回應，我都很擔心啦！一顆毒蘋果，但是一個很爽的政策，其實我一直在問部長要怎麼支持年輕人，我們也一直在說看能不能創一個基金，年輕的人來存錢，政府相對上我們幫忙補助他多少，利息的部分我就給你補貼，那是一個比較穩健的方式。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是沒有想到，侯友宜這麼能幹，一下子全部都免錢，這個講得喔！你看中央銀行在做信用管制的時候，我看它一波、一波、一波地這樣發，首購的話，你看現在買一間房子，貸款也只可以貸到七成五而已。而你現在不是，全部都不用！全都政府來！這個實在是要好好地、內政部真的要好好去把這個利弊講一下。","最後一個問題，主席不好意思喔！主席對我最好了，讓我把年輕朋友在擔心的這一個問題問完。很多租屋族，我上次也就教過花次長還有部長，就是我幾乎是立法院第一個針對租屋族的電費問題提出質詢的，我一直在追蹤這個問題。後續我也提過好幾次，終於讓台電去年初在帳單上增列了前年度平均電費，讓房東、房客有一個依據，你看我2021年開始在講這個，一直在追你們。但是根據租客聯盟的租屋狀況調查顯示，有高達四成租屋族的電費計算方式，仍然是按照房東規定的每度電費繳納，這個普遍都是超收，房客也只能咬牙接受。而今年度，我相信有更多委員一起來努力，就這個問題向台電提出質詢，本席也看到內政部上個月邀集各單位跟相關團體召開第二次座談，在談精進租電費的資訊及計收標準。我要請教部長，內政部連續兩次座談會裡面，有沒有更進一步的具體方向？"],["林部長右昌：我想這個會議是花次長主持的，相關的討論細節還沒有跟我報告，是不是容我會後請花次長再跟委員做說明？"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，我是這樣認為，如果住宅租賃定型化契約的應記載跟不得記載事項裡面，「電費的上限為台電所定當月用電量最高級距之每度金額」改為「當期每度平均電費」，並且在租賃定型化契約裡面新增房東電費透明之義務，這樣來講的話，有辦法額外計算出來。除了內政部以外，台電現在也不斷在鼓勵房東裝置智慧電表，以及以單獨裝表的方式計算各間分租雅房使用的電度。未單獨裝表計費公共設施用電的房東，能夠要求他們提出合理電費單價的計算原則，向房客公開費用收取依據。我期待，部長說次長沒有向你報告，這個我們把它解決掉了……"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我覺得對年輕朋友、那些租屋族來講才公平。"],["林部長右昌：是，委員提的這兩點意見，基本上我覺得是合理，我們應該是可以在這個定型化契約裡面把它律定，我想這對於整個的規範應該是有幫助。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，我覺得應該去貫徹的地方就是，不然我作為房東，對於台電我就用那麼多而已，我弄一弄之後租給這些房客，我光是連電都賺他一筆……"],["林部長右昌：那就是變相加價。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是。好，部長，這點一定要努力把它完成，好不好？"],["林部長右昌：是，好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝部長、謝謝莊委員。","接下來請江啟臣委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人\n擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名\n條例第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.9290937500000003,"end":9.750968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.20659375,"end":12.231593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.880968750000001,"end":51.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.60471875,"end":27.621593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.87096875,"end":89.29971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.77221875000001,"end":121.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.96971875000001,"end":144.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.95346875,"end":161.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.87471875,"end":163.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.34721875,"end":204.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.37909375,"end":176.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.92721875,"end":178.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.43784375,"end":226.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.95909375000002,"end":217.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.18534375000002,"end":230.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.08346875,"end":237.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.85034375,"end":243.08159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.45284375000003,"end":244.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.83659375000002,"end":249.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.79784375000003,"end":250.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.97909375,"end":252.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.12221875000003,"end":258.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.97784375000003,"end":269.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.06471875,"end":282.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.73846875000004,"end":279.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.56909375000004,"end":287.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.81721875,"end":291.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.03596875,"end":309.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.22721875,"end":315.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.33596875,"end":319.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.79534375000003,"end":327.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.09784375000004,"end":342.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.57221875000005,"end":349.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.00159375000004,"end":352.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.61721875,"end":378.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.77346875,"end":395.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.73284375000003,"end":407.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.91659375,"end":409.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.51971875000004,"end":411.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.37159375000005,"end":413.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.97471875,"end":418.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.35784375000003,"end":422.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.37409375000004,"end":425.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.39471875000004,"end":432.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.85784375000003,"end":442.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.13471875000005,"end":451.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.68659375000004,"end":449.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.57221875000005,"end":454.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.74096875000004,"end":452.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.91784375000003,"end":465.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.76409375000003,"end":476.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.39534375000005,"end":498.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.70471875000004,"end":495.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.03784375000004,"end":496.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.75471875000005,"end":499.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.73346875000004,"end":541.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.1784687500001,"end":550.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.13471875,"end":555.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.14659375,"end":557.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":557.68221875,"end":574.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.6415937500001,"end":575.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.5022187500001,"end":576.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.4978437500001,"end":580.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.1215937500001,"end":582.8428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.3828437500001,"end":585.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.15034375,"end":597.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.4397187500001,"end":613.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.57221875,"end":620.6765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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這麼好都不用存錢就可以買房子可是呢你把它冷靜下來以後你把它想一想這個是一顆毒蘋果為什麼它是一個毒蘋果呢假設 假設"},{"start":292.128,"end":296.429,"text":"都在不升息的情況之下而且貸款的金額是1500萬一台銀你看以台銀現在來看喔台銀現在的房貸是2.06%來計算前5年你去補貼0.5%的話就是說你2.06減掉0.5剩1.56"},{"start":310.333,"end":327.553,"text":"那每一期你要這個本利合本利合差不多一萬九千五那個本當然前五年是零啦九千五那如果五年過後你補貼零點一二五就是二點零六百分之二點零六減掉零點一二五"},{"start":328.214,"end":329.515,"text":"這個政策落實了以後我反而會擔心"},{"start":343.63,"end":348.352,"text":"提出這個政策的人年輕人會喜歡可是呢你讓他去沉澱以後他會覺得說噢甘湯為什麼我說落實以後造成像比如說美國的金融危機就是一個次貸危機你前5年你19500大多數人我看都付得起年輕人也會開心但是這個第6年以後負擔超過是將近3.2倍"},{"start":365.9,"end":370.124,"text":"又轉授又綁10年。」這對我這個年輕人來說,我感覺說,對我身體是增加很多,不然還會更大一個負擔。所以我請教部長的就是說,對我有一所主張這樣,我都很擔心變成說當沖,會變成隔代沖的一個風險。前5年我負擔得起,第6年開始負點3.2倍買房以後啊,"},{"start":389.702,"end":394.287,"text":"薪水若不增加或是我來去簽到地上賣或是我有其他投資的收入的話那個確實是緩緩緩到老以後變成說現在在幫助年輕人其實也會造成很大的負擔尤其我更擔心的是什麼呢我更擔心的就是說你現在這1500萬你把它當成一個門檻我要中古屋出售"},{"start":412.561,"end":420.479,"text":"變相都會抬高會有抬高到一直搞不好我如果建商我拉我把他拉到一千五以後我企出來成屋我企出來就都要一千五萬所以柏中你看我是怎樣"},{"start":424.611,"end":448.891,"text":"我想任何的購買的行為都應該是理性的然後第二個你必須要考慮可負擔那衝動的一個購買的行為這個通常都是比較不好的那特別是購物這個金額的這個金額數很大那剛剛在講所謂的免投期款並不是不用還他還是要還因為總價並沒有改變"},{"start":454.536,"end":471.07,"text":"但是五年之後就會有還款的問題因為他會把原本你應該要還的全部加上來也就是你會比要支付頭期款你必須還更多的一個錢在總價不變的一個狀況之下在第五年之後"},{"start":471.87,"end":497.15,"text":"所以剛剛提到如果說是用1500萬免頭期款來算的話等於那個總價的金額大概是1875萬那原本你是要付375萬的一個頭期款但是如果是在這樣的狀況下不用付但是5年之後你還是要回頭還那個375萬的一個本金所以他的負擔其實是回家的所以你擔憂的是什麼"},{"start":499.821,"end":512.979,"text":"我擔心的是我們政府的一個政策必須要穩健那第二個是我們現在的一個方式都是鼓勵儲蓄然後政府最後幫你一把"},{"start":514,"end":540.438,"text":"也就是你有相關的一個優惠利率的一個提供那在這個你支付了這個所謂的頭期款之後第一個是掂量自己的購物的能力買適合的房子第二個是你有真正能夠還款的這樣子一個能力的一個配套那這個時間是很長因為還款的貸款期間大概是20到30年的時間所以必須要考慮到整個的合理的一個購買能力"},{"start":541.278,"end":557.057,"text":"任何一個負責任的政府你要看看你要解決的到底是什麼這一題其實我也要講的其實也叫做居住正義居住正義這個東西就是地方政府、中央政府任何一個政府它全部都有責任這就是怎樣你知道嗎就是你應該地方政府應該責的事情"},{"start":561.102,"end":567.326,"text":"像譬如說社會住宅你新北市搞不好你的店鋪都要停頓了這沒搞到你現在開始要競速、要飆車我都很擔心這一題它會翻車啦為什麼呢你去把它看啦我們政府一直在強調居住正義就是說問題咧我們要減輕年輕人跟租屋主的一個負擔以社會住宅來看的話第一階段本來政府"},{"start":583.436,"end":595.331,"text":"在幫忙地方政府資金挹注還幫忙去找土地譬如說第一次在台北市我們撥走40倍第二次在110年中央政府投入了直接興建社會住宅我們從修法裡面來看這個我感受特別深刻我到第8屆的時候都沒有人在談這個"},{"start":601.579,"end":603.86,"text":"是蔡政府上來到第9屆我們開始去談那110、100就2017年的時候我們去修這個住宅法這增訂中央主管機關為新辦的一個主體就是說以前地方政府去中央給你錢給你賺土地現在我們覺得不夠了我們把它修法中央政府直接去下場我們也可以去蓋"},{"start":621.187,"end":633.058,"text":"然後蔡政府上來以後我相信的很多的一個措施包括你看我們連整個社宅法我們不斷的去做一個修改連社宅的一個弱勢比例我們從10%升到30%現在要變40%電鍋也已經放寬了所以欲有未成年子女家庭複合社會住宅弱勢的資格本來是3個現在都放寬降低到"},{"start":645.709,"end":647.812,"text":"2個所以我是認為這條這條補充理論在這裡正面回應我都很擔心一顆毒蘋果但是一個很爽的政策其實我實在是"},{"start":658.51,"end":660.932,"text":"一直在問部長說要把年輕人這樣倒幾次我們也一直在說看可不可以創一個基金我年輕的我來簽字政府相對我們就幫他補助多少理責的部分我就幫你做一個補貼那就是一個比較穩健的方式但是沒有想到 齁齁齁 他們給他這麼厲害發一個 全部都不用錢"},{"start":679.985,"end":688.829,"text":"這個講的齁中央政府你看你看那個中央銀行在做信用管制的時候我看那一波一波一波的這樣發首購你看他現在他買一間房子大家看你現在我們如果他買一間房子大家看我們一個75年了可以大家75年了你現在不是全部都不用建屋都來這個實在是要好好的去內政部要好好的去把這個利弊喔"},{"start":703.875,"end":711.818,"text":"真的要去講一下另外最後一個問題主席不好意思我們這個主席對我最好的讓我把這一題把他那個年輕朋友在擔心的一個問題很多租屋主我上次也就教過花次還有部長就是說我們從立法院第一個我幾乎"},{"start":721.761,"end":725.625,"text":"針對這個租屋的租屋主的電費問題第一個提出這個質詢我一直在追蹤這個問題後續我也提過好幾次就是說終於讓台電在去年初在帳單上可以增列了前年度平均電費來讓房東房客有一個依據"},{"start":742.858,"end":762.023,"text":"但是根據整個租客聯盟的租屋狀況的調查顯示仍然有高達4成的租屋主的電費計算方式仍然是按照房東規定的每度的電費來做一個繳納這個普遍都是超收讓房客也只能咬牙去做這樣的一個接受那今年度呢"},{"start":762.583,"end":784.909,"text":"我相信也有更多的委員一起來努力這個問題向台電提出質詢本席也看到內政部上個月邀集各單位跟相關團體召開第二次的座談來談這個精進租電費的一個資訊及寄收的一個標準我要請教部長就是說你們內政部連線兩屆座談會裡面有沒有更進一步的具體的一個方向"},{"start":786.105,"end":803.849,"text":"我想這個會議是花次長主持的是他相關的討論的細節還沒有跟我報告是不是容我會後請花次長再跟委員做說明好 我是這樣認為啦如果說在這個住宅租賃定型化契約裡面你那個因記載跟不得記載事項裡面你那個電費的一個上限為台電所訂當月用電的一個最高級距的每度的一個金額改為當期每度的平均電費然後呢並且在租屋的一個"},{"start":815.171,"end":819.173,"text":"租賃的一個定型化契約裡面新增房東電費透明的一個義務那這樣來講的話有辦法來額外來計算出來除了內政部以外臺電現在也不斷在鼓勵房東來裝置這個智慧電表以及以單獨裝表的方式來計算各間的一個分租雅房的一個使用的一個電度也沒有單獨的裝置"},{"start":838.94,"end":842.022,"text":"計算公共設施用電的一個房東能夠要求他們來提出合理的電費單價的計算原則向房東來公開這個費用來收取這個依據我期待部長這個因為你說次長沒跟你報告有沒有這個我們把它解決掉啦我覺得對年輕朋友那些租屋主來講才公平啊"},{"start":857.173,"end":876.623,"text":"是,委員你提的這兩點意見基本上我覺得是合理那我們應該是可以在這個定型化契約裡面來做這個把它濾錠我想這個對於整個的一個規範應該是有幫助的是,我覺得應該去貫徹的地方就是說阿不,我做房東,我幫你帶電我用這麼多年,我種種的了,我做給這裡的房客我給他連電又給他賺一條是,變相加價了是"},{"start":884.367,"end":891.532,"text":"好部長這一點一定要把他努力把他完成了好不好是好好謝謝好謝謝部長謝謝莊委員接下來請江啟臣委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"148984","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148984","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720297ee3b523bd951fc494fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a0322d11de6715aabe0185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴品妤","委員發言時間":"10:41:11 - 10:51:22","影片長度":"00:10:11","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":611,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:51:22+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:41:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":407,"blocks":[["賴委員品妤：（10時41分）謝謝主席，麻煩主席有請內政部林部長。"],["主席：林部長請。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["賴委員品妤：部長好。選戰目前到1月13號大概剩下三十幾天，大家都在做最後的衝刺，同時間我想我們相關的部會，特別是內政部這邊應該要上緊發條，為選舉該做的準備也不少。第一個就是我想問部長，因為其實這陣子，不只是這幾天，這陣子都會陸續看到各地的警方偵辦選舉賭盤的新聞，北從基隆、新北到屏東其實都有偵破組頭的消息。在這邊我要先稱讚警政署去偵查有成果，但我想很多選舉的手法都是環環相扣的，例如說地下賭盤，很多人可能會拿地下賭盤來閒聊，當作類似一種民調來參考，所以就有一種可能，也許會發生這種狀況是故意去用開讓幾萬票來暗示縮小差距或者是擴大差距來誤導民眾，這也是一個非常需要注意的趨勢。","另外，回到選舉，我想各界還是高度關注中國議題，有沒有中國的黑手伸進來介入臺灣的選舉，我想這個答案是肯定的，只是說到底是介入得多深、介入的樣態到底是什麼樣子。事實上先前我們也可以看到在APEC的會議中，拜登也罕見地向習近平明確地表達不希望中國干涉臺灣的選舉。連美國都有在掌握臺灣的動向了，臺灣自己呢？我可以說其實我們看到，最近滿多新聞都有提到包含臺北還有本席所在的新北，還有中部的彰化，其實都有出現里長到中國旅遊統戰團的現象，如果今天你說是單純的旅遊就算了，但為什麼都是里長？為什麼可以用比行情低廉非常多，極度低廉的費用，甚至是只要出機票錢去玩，這些都是必須要延伸去瞭解的問題點。我想請問部長，內政部這邊對於這個情形掌握到什麼樣的程度了？"],["林部長右昌：好，非常謝謝。我想有關於賭盤的部分，這個向來不是新鮮事，每一次選舉到的時候就有特定或者是有意圖的人士，意圖用賭盤來影響大選。我們在這一次整個的遏制賭盤的部分，我們特別是以六合彩的組頭來作為相關的重點對象，因為歷來都是由六合彩的組頭兼營，還有通訊網路下注的比例是最高的，所以我們警政署已經要求各警察機關結合清源3.0的工作計畫來進行相關的通報布建，主動來發掘轄內的簽注站有沒有相關的情形，所以也再次強調呼籲不要以身試法。目前9月20號到9月26號我們已經執行第一波全國同步的掃蕩賭博專案，現在、此時此刻我們正在進行的是第二波的專案掃蕩，在前次第一波的專案掃蕩期間，我們掌握具體的情資有149件，並且已經移送了77件98人。","其次，中國介選也從來不是新聞，只不過它介選的方式變得越來越隱晦而且越多樣，過去用賭盤來介選，或者是中國的資金介選，這個本來就是我們加強的一個重點。剛剛委員特別提到，有很多村里長被中國招待去旅遊，我們目前掌握蒐報的相關情資大概有51件或者是51團556人，目前已經有查獲的案件，正在偵辦當中。現在因為介選的方式很多，它不一定是直接介選，它也許用假訊息或是錯假訊息來擾亂、干擾大選，造成民眾對政府的誤解或是負面的情緒，我想這都是現在要特別注意的狀況。"],["賴委員品妤：是，這兩個問題雖然內容不一樣，但本質上都是在詢問您影響介選的狀況。我想落地接待這件事情就像你講的，這不是新鮮事、不是第一次聽到，甚至不要說里長，過去就有很多大學生在寒暑假被中國的大學招待過去旅遊、參觀，而且也都是非常低廉的費用甚至不用費用，可以去體驗住好、吃好的旅遊，本席以前在大學的時候也有被詢問過，當然是沒有去啦，但也被詢問過，當然大家都知道天下沒有白吃的午餐，哪有平白無故被招待這麼好的事情！","回到村里長的招待，找上里長主要是兩個原因，第一個是村里長本身的性質，他不是狹義的公務員，他領的是事務補助費，可能因此到中國入境不一定要事先申報。第二個，村里長就是最基層的民政單位，就像剛才部長自己提到的，他們大部分都跟選民往來密切，所以中國最能藉由村里長達到傳遞假訊息並且攏絡選民的任務。像我剛剛提到的、最近很多新聞也都有提到，這次彰化縣有特別集中跟頻繁的趨勢，報導裡也說到中國重慶市台辦從三個月分成三個梯次，招待彰化縣三百多位喔，非常多！三百多位村里長到當地旅遊，為什麼挑上彰化？有一說是比起一些有明顯政治傾向的地區，中部可能在政黨傾向上比較搖擺，所以這個看上去也是中國介選的考量。選戰只剩下三十幾天了，這件事情內政部真的要積極澈查，去瞭解各縣市村里長有沒有異常被招待赴中旅遊的狀況，剛才你也說在查，我在這邊要講、要督促，如果有這種明顯對價不相等的狀況，該送檢調偵辦的就要立刻送辦，千萬不要輕忽！","再來，我也想問黃署長，除了賭博跟被招待之外，買票、賄選這種不正當的選舉行為我們向來都嚴肅看待，可是之前我也跟警政署討論過，隨著時代的進步，買票、賄選已經不只是實體物品、給現金這種行為，其實我們常常說要查金流，看犯罪嫌疑人有沒有異常的款項進出帳戶，再去澈查來源作為犯罪的證據，以現在最新的科技發展來說，例如透過虛擬的NFT或是虛擬貨幣作為媒介，這些線上的、隱密的、難以追蹤的方式，請問署長這邊該如何處理？"],["黃署長明昭：是，就這些虛擬貨幣的幣流追查，警政署是訂定一個科偵人才的教育訓練計畫……"],["賴委員品妤：是，這我有看到。"],["黃署長明昭：我們預計一年要培訓500位，針對幣流的追查、追蹤方式進行教育訓練，這包含了所有的專家來授課，還包括金管會的專業人員來協助我們訓練這些同仁。"],["賴委員品妤：瞭解。我想這個虛擬貨幣，或許它的交易過程是隱密、加密的，但最後事實上還是要把這個貨幣兌現成各國的在地貨幣，所以如何透過比對領取帳戶的人別資料，進而研判是不是有異常賄選的可能性，這樣可能找得到樁腳，但是源頭的部分也是要加強。剛才署長講的這個計畫我有看到，請問一下，因為你說現在有在訓練，這些人有辦法在這次選舉就投入偵辦的實務嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：其實我們的科偵人才一直都在訓練，早在幾年前都已經訓練了，這500位是擴大他的訓練，所以之前已經訓練過的都可以投入這次選戰相關的幣流追查。"],["賴委員品妤：瞭解。上週在財政委員會也有委員問到防範虛擬貨幣介選的議題，我看到現場就有提案要求金管會研議大額通報的標準，這部分也要請刑事局加快訓練腳步，否則科技日新月異，要進入、趕上偵辦的實務如果需要跨單位合作溝通，比方我剛提到的金管會、法務部，其實也應該儘速處理，可以嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：好。"],["賴委員品妤：這部分要再麻煩內政部及警政署多多擔待了，謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["黃署長明昭：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：請回座，謝謝賴委員。","接下來請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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了那台灣自己呢"},{"start":113.038,"end":139.455,"text":"我可以說其實我們有看到就是說有新聞最近還蠻多新聞都有提到說包含台北還有本席所在的新北還有中部的彰化其實都有出現這個里長到中國旅遊統戰團的現象那如果今天你說是單純的旅遊就算了但為什麼都是里長為什麼可以用這個比行情低廉非常多極度低廉的費用甚至是只要出機票錢去玩"},{"start":140.076,"end":143.245,"text":"這些都是必須要延伸去了解的問題點我想請問部長內政部這邊對於這個情形掌握到什麼樣的程度了"},{"start":149.368,"end":167.617,"text":"非常謝謝我想有關於這個賭盤的部分這個向來不是新鮮事每一次選舉到的時候就特定或者是有意圖的人士意圖用這個賭盤來影響大選我們在這一次的一個"},{"start":173.66,"end":198.127,"text":"整個的一個二制賭盤的部分我們特別是以六合彩的一個主頭來作為我們相關的一個重點的一個對象因為歷來都是由這個六合彩的主頭經營還有這個通訊的一個網路下注的比例是最高的所以我們本署警政署已經要求各警察機關結合青圓3.0的工作計畫"},{"start":201.868,"end":222.065,"text":"來進行相關的一個通報的一個部件主動來發掘在轄內的這個簽署站有沒有相關的一個情形所以也再次強調呼籲不要以身來釋法那我們目前到9月20號到9月26號我們已經執行第一波的全國同步的一個掃蕩賭博的這個專案"},{"start":225.027,"end":240.066,"text":"現在此時此刻我們正在進行的是第二波的一個專案掃蕩那在前次第一波的專案掃蕩的部分期間呢我們掌握具體的一個請職有149件那並且已經移送了77件98人"},{"start":242.188,"end":266.776,"text":"那其實中國借選也從來不是新聞只不過它借選的一個方式變得越來越隱晦而且越多樣那過去這個用賭盤來借選或者是說中國的一個資金來借選那這個本來就是我們加強的一個重點那第二剛剛委員特別提到有這個很多的所謂的村里長"},{"start":267.676,"end":287.882,"text":"被中國招待去進行相關的一個旅遊相關的一個情資我們目前掌握收報的這樣的一個情資大概有51件或者是51團556人目前已經有查獲的一個案件正在偵辦當中"},{"start":290.011,"end":312.066,"text":"那當然現在因為這個競選的方式很多那他不一定是直接競選他也許用假訊息或者是錯假訊息來擾亂或者是干擾大選那造成民眾對政府的一個誤解或者是負面的一個情緒我想這個都是現在我們特別注意的狀況因為其實這兩個問題雖然這個內容不一樣但本質上都是在"},{"start":316.829,"end":343.386,"text":"詢問您這個影響屆選的狀況因為我想落地接待這件事情就像你講的這不是新鮮事不是第一次聽到那甚至說不要說里長啦過去就有很多這個學生大學生在寒暑假被中國的大學招待過去旅遊啊、參觀而且也都是非常低廉的費用甚至是不用費用然後去體驗這個住好、吃好的旅遊甚至本席以前在大學的時候也有被詢問過當然是沒有去啦但也被詢問過"},{"start":344.706,"end":367.661,"text":"當然大家也都知道天下沒有白吃的午餐哪有平白無故被招待這麼好的事情不過回到這個村里長的招待啦會找上里長當然主要是兩個原因嘛第一個就是說村里長本身他的性質他不是說他不是狹義的公務員他領的是事務補助費可能因此這個到中國入境不一定要事先申報啦"},{"start":368.522,"end":391.82,"text":"那第二就是村里長就是最基層的民政單位那其實就像剛才部長自己提到了啦他們大部分都跟選民往來密切所以最能夠中國最能夠藉由村里長來達到傳遞假訊息並且籠絡選民的任務那其實像我剛提到最近很多新聞也都有提到說這一次彰化縣有特別集中跟頻繁的趨勢啦那"},{"start":393.982,"end":412.975,"text":"報導裡也有說到中國重慶市台辦從這個三個月分成三個梯次招待彰化縣300多位喔非常多300多位村里長到當地旅遊那為什麼挑上彰化有一說是說比起這個一些有明顯政治傾向的地區中部可能在政黨傾向上比較搖擺啦"},{"start":414.676,"end":428.06,"text":"所以這個其實也是中國看上去借選的考量所以這件事情選戰只剩下30幾天了這件事情內政部真的是要積極的徹查啦去瞭解就是說各縣市的村里長有沒有異常被招待附中旅遊的狀況那剛才你也有說在查嘛"},{"start":429.981,"end":447.352,"text":"那我這邊要講要督促就是說如果有這種明顯的對價不相等的狀況那該送檢調偵辦的就要立刻去送辦千萬不要去輕忽啦那再來是不是我也想問黃署長這邊啦因為除了這個賭博跟被招待之外買票啊、會選這種"},{"start":449.173,"end":470.278,"text":"不正當的行為向來在選舉我們也都要嚴肅看待可是其實之前我也有跟警政署討論過隨著時代的進步買票賄選已經不是只有這種實體的物品給現金這種行為其實我們常常再說要查金流看犯罪嫌疑人有沒有異常的款項進出賬戶再去徹查他的來源作為犯罪的證據"},{"start":471.278,"end":494.387,"text":"那如果以現在最新的科技發展來說例如透過虛擬的NFT或者是說虛擬貨幣作為媒介這些線上的隱秘的難以追蹤的方式請問署長這邊該如何處理是就虛擬貨幣這些幣流的一個追查警政署是訂定一個科真人才的一個教育訓練計畫"},{"start":495.868,"end":510.376,"text":"那我們預計會有一年要培訓500位對避留的一個追查追蹤的方式來進行教育訓練那這個也包含了所有的專家來收購還包括金管會的一個專業人員來協助我們訓練這些同仁"},{"start":513.288,"end":532.717,"text":"了解對因為我想這個虛擬貨幣他的或許啦他的交易過程是隱秘加密的但是最後他事實上還是要把這個貨幣去兌現成各國的這個在地貨幣嗎所以如何去透過比對領取的帳戶的人別資料那進而去研判是不是有異常會選的可能性那"},{"start":533.457,"end":562.357,"text":"可能找得到樁腳但是源頭這個部分其實也是要加強那我剛才這個署長講的這個計畫我也有看到啦那我想請問一下因為你說現在有在訓練嘛那這些人有辦法在這次選舉就投入偵辦的實務嗎其實我們的科證人才一直都在訓練早幾年前已經都在訓練那這500位是擴大擴大他的一個訓練所以這個之前已經訓練過都可以投入到這次的一個選戰相關的必有的一個追查"},{"start":562.83,"end":591.609,"text":"了解因為上週其實在財政委員會也有委員有問到說防範虛擬貨幣借權的議題那其實當時我看到說現場就有提出提案要求金管會要研議大額通報的標準那這部分也是要請有請許志祺加快腳步啦訓練腳步否則這個科技日新月異那要去這個進入感上應用在偵辦的實務上如果需要跨單位啦比方說我剛提到的金管會嘛法務部合作溝通的其實也應該要儘速處理"},{"start":593.43,"end":599.133,"text":"可以嗎?那這個部分就是要再麻煩內政部還有警政署這邊多多擔待了OK,謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席,謝謝好,請回座,謝謝賴委員接下來請陳益臻委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"148981","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148981","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720298fbfca13a5d663ef94fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a03225378fc16f52fc0c15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳椒華","委員發言時間":"13:15:34 - 13:22:41","影片長度":"00:07:07","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":427,"end_time":"2023-12-11T13:22:41+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T13:15:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1137,"blocks":[["陳委員椒華：（13時15分）謝謝召委。請內政部長。"],["主席：林部長請。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["陳委員椒華：部長好。今天我還是要提一個上次已經質詢過的議題想要來請教部長，就是有關土地鑑界的問題。關於土地鑑界有一個案子，目前已經訴訟超過十年，就是竹北一個地政的案子。這個案子上上禮拜監委有跟本席碰面，當面跟他說明，在說明之後，其中一個很主要的爭議就是在陳情人蓋房子之前到底有沒有鑑界，你可以看到這個圖是房子蓋好之後去做保存登記的鑑界。興建之前有沒有鑑界？因為地政單位這邊給法院的資料是蓋房子之前沒有鑑界，但是根據提出的一些資料，監委看了以後，發現在蓋房子之前，有90年的鑑界資料及91年的鑑界資料。我要跟部長詢問的是，因為現在給法院的證據也是地政單位給的，如果地政單位這邊有不當的證詞，像部長現在看到這個案子就是竹北地政單位一直告訴法院說當事人沒有鑑界，但是在蓋房子之前，包括90年、89年都有鑑界資料，而且和92年蓋好房子時的鑑界資料都一樣。如果地政單位沒有給法院正確的資料，包括沒有給監察院正確的資料，會導致陳情人的權益受損。內政部現在有關土地鑑界的機制，包括重測、圖解數值化這些問題都很容易造成爭議，所以就會訴訟，也因此本席接到非常多的陳情案例。我想請問部長，這個要怎麼解決呢？假如地政單位球員兼裁判，提出錯誤的證詞，會讓陳情人的權益嚴重受損。我剛剛講的這個案子的確就是，因為陳情人的房子面臨被拆的問題，現在監察院的監委願意重新調查，本席認為當一個受害者沒有能力表達正確的資訊，而且地政機關不願意提供資料的時候，這個鑑界會造成很多不幸，比如重測之後整個地界改了，重測的時候沒有通知多數的人去指界，而是由地政機關去協助指界的時候，的確有很多地界都被改了，被改的時候有些人的地變多了，有些人的地卻變少了，所以爭議就一直產生，而法院訴訟的這種案子也就變得很多。本席想要講的是，像這樣的情況，我們在指界的時候要怎麼去修正或檢討這個問題？"],["林部長右昌：非常謝謝委員，雖然這個個案我不是非常清楚，不過地籍上面的偏差的確是有的，因為技術的因素或是年代登記的因素，這種狀況是有的。剛剛委員特別提到球員兼裁判或是地政人員不願意提供正確的資料，這應該是不容許的，地政人員必須提供正確的資料才對。剛才委員提到好幾個問題，包括他之前是不是有鑑界、之後是不是有偏移的狀況，這可能都會分涉到不同層次的問題。"],["陳委員椒華：部長，你剛剛說的是不允許，請問我們有什麼樣的防弊機制？畢竟鑑界也是地政機關，法院作證也是地政機關，它當然不願意承認它有任何疏失嘛！還有剛剛所說有關指界的部分，像彰化二水或二林那邊就有一個案例，就是6,500戶當中只有200戶實際去指界，所以重測做出來的結果是大偏移，我現在希望內政部要重新檢討。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["陳委員椒華：就是已經做的部分如果有嚴重的偏移，就不應該敷衍、閃躲，不願意面對事實。另外是在重測的時候，怎麼去修相關的作業指引或辦法，也就是指界至少要有一半以上才能進行重測，不然這樣的重測結果等於造成另外一個大災難。"],["林部長右昌：是，謝謝委員。有關地政的測量及指界，地政機關都有相關規定，今天因為地政司沒有到……"],["陳委員椒華：我知道。"],["林部長右昌：是不是我再請地政司向委員報告。另外，委員剛剛特別提到是不是有相關的規定或指引需要加以修正，這部分我也會跟地政司討論。"],["陳委員椒華：對，就是要提醒部長這個部分一定要重新檢討、修正，避免更多的錯誤發生。"],["林部長右昌：是，我會請地政司再跟我報告。"],["陳委員椒華：好，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，請回座。","羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員林文瑞、陳琬惠、邱臣遠所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人\n擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名\n條例第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.5453437500000002,"end":3.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.8278437500000004,"end":5.076593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.64596875,"end":7.422218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.36659375,"end":13.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.83909375,"end":22.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.20471875,"end":25.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.461593750000002,"end":30.794093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.148468750000003,"end":36.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.58221875,"end":40.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.665968750000005,"end":50.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.16221875,"end":55.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.19096875,"end":58.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.890968750000006,"end":63.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.15596875,"end":70.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.55159375000001,"end":71.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.73284375,"end":78.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.68534375,"end":81.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.60471875,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.33846875,"end":85.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.60409375,"end":105.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.36471875000001,"end":108.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.76909375000001,"end":114.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.48971875000001,"end":118.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.64534375000001,"end":119.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.87721875000001,"end":121.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.88534375,"end":122.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.43784375000001,"end":128.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.68596875,"end":142.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.77659375000002,"end":143.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.07596875000002,"end":144.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.35846875000001,"end":151.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.46721875,"end":151.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.34471875,"end":156.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.52534375000002,"end":159.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.00596875000002,"end":168.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.70909375000002,"end":173.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.65784375,"end":176.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.77971875,"end":179.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.69034375,"end":193.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.82346875000002,"end":194.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.13971875000001,"end":196.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.54034375,"end":199.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.81409375,"end":203.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.91034375,"end":206.34471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.17159375,"end":208.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.75784375,"end":209.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.80409375000002,"end":212.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.75284375,"end":215.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.65534375000001,"end":218.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.98409375000003,"end":224.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.92409375000003,"end":228.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.75471875000002,"end":234.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.30221875,"end":238.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.82909375000003,"end":241.78221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.00159375,"end":243.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.52034375000002,"end":262.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.06534375,"end":272.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.62971875,"end":273.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.47346875,"end":279.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.36284375,"end":293.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.68971875,"end":297.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.57096875,"end":303.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.94971875000005,"end":321.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.34784375000004,"end":348.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.51534375,"end":330.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.97909375,"end":332.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.14096875,"end":360.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.63284375,"end":364.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.29471875,"end":368.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.37909375000004,"end":364.83471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謝謝委員我想那個地震的測量還有它的紙戒其實我們地震機關都有相關規定其實因為地震師沒有到我知道我是不是"},{"start":402.504,"end":402.724,"text":"羅明財、羅明財委員不在"}]}},{"id":"148980","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148980","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029294f3e1f074ccefd94fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a0322883b0731a2b3b7265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"13:00:34 - 13:15:01","影片長度":"00:14:27","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":867,"end_time":"2023-12-11T13:15:01+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T13:00:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1076,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（13時）謝謝主席。有請中選會、原民會、法務部，謝謝。"],["主席：李主委、夷將主委，還有林部長請。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：法務部。"],["主席：不好意思，林部長不用，黃次長請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委好。今天內政委員會特別安排行政中立的專報，我們也都知道公務人員行政中立法的主管機關應該是在銓敘部，因為今天也沒有來備詢，所以我就大概問你們三個部會。","首先我想要請教一下中選會李主委，請您看一下，因為在上上個禮拜同樣的時間、同樣的地點，在我質詢之後，聽說有幾位委員就原民會辦的一個叫文化健康站的實施計畫到底有沒有行政中立的問題做了一番質詢討論，所以我在這邊請教一下李主委，這個文健站的主辦機關是原民會，承辦的機關是縣市政府，協辦是區公所、鄉公所，執行的單位其實是人民團體，也就是所謂的協會，這個協會會聘僱一些人員，就是所謂的照服人員，那我請教一下李主委，這一些被聘僱的照服員，他們適用或者準用公務人員行政中立法嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：跟委員報告，中選會針對我們選務工作人員行政中立，我們是由銓敘部……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，所以我說今天銓敘部沒來嘛！所以……"],["李主任委員進勇：其他機關的人員這部分，因為不是我們職掌範圍之內，我們尊重權責機關的處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那請教一下原民會主委，文健站的照服員適用或準用公務人員行政中立法嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：正如剛剛委員所提到的，照服員是文健站執行單位進用的人員，所以對原民會來講，這個不是機關的聘用人員，他是民間人員……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：就不是嘛！因為有人很關心，一而再、再而三的質詢，所以我也知道，你們在有委員質詢關心之後，今年的9月以及上一次質詢完的隔一個禮拜，你們也兩度發函給縣市政府以及文健站，這些內容我看到你們在今天的專報裡面也有寫到，就是希望避免於開站的期間為特定公職候選人公開站臺或協助拜票，也不應以文健站的名義帶長者去做候選人的競選活動，然後非上班時間，你們也要求應避免穿著文健站的背心去參加這些活動。那我請教一下，既然有人關心，我相信你們應該有去查了，有沒有查？有沒有查上次提到的那種情形？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：正如剛剛委員提到的，我們已經兩度發函，9月13號跟11月28號，按照相關法律的規範……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那有沒有去查？因為我記得那位委員他有要求要查。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：目前我們沒有收到任何的案子。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以沒有查到？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：沒有查到。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那我們來看一下，因為我是不會做這種事啦！雖然我被指控，但是我們看一下一段影片，這是公開的影片。就是那一位委員。","（播放影片）"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委，這是文健站吧？他帶著另外一位平地原住民候選人，也公開穿著他候選人的背心，他說我要選立委了，我都是到文健站各地去拜票。這是他說出來的話。我們再看下一個，都是他質詢前的一個禮拜。","（播放影片）"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我要說的是，我們也沒有特別去在意這件事，為什麼？因為關懷長者，我們也很高興，而且真的要去追究適不適用公務人員行政中立法，說實在你們也回答不出來，也沒有辦法究辦，那有沒有違反你們一而再、再而三講的規定？好，如果真的有違反，我相信你們的作法也就是逕行糾舉後，有可能這個協會就列入不適合的辦理單位。好，我們繼續看，多少年來，這是去年扶植的這些候選人，你看！到每一個文健站發快篩，長年累月去發物資，我們也都沒有人講這個，不會去指責，因為關心老人家是好事，雖然我沒有這個能耐、能力，沒有這個財力廣結善緣，但我也是祝福啊！因為多一點人關心老人是好事啊！但是我覺得不能因為在很多縣市暢行無阻，因為在某個縣市，我就直接講了，因為他也直接講了，屏東縣政府要求文健站員工輔選，在國會殿堂直接點名，因為沒有辦法在這個縣暢行無阻，就直接指控伍麗華跟這些員工說：不支持我，你們就離開，就沒有工作。更糟糕的是還製作影片散布，你們怎麼會容許這些行為？我請教一下，因為他有要求調查，有沒有跟屏東縣政府調查？有沒有掌握到有人指控我說不支持就離開的？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：剛剛我也講過，到目前為止，沒有收到任何要求調查的案子，是沒有的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，我的個性大家都知道，我也敢拍胸脯保證，我是很客氣的人，我很知道分寸在哪裡，我不會幹這些事。今天的備詢沒有邀請行政中立法的主管機關銓敘部，我覺得沒有辦法充分討論，但最起碼我想說的是，文健站的這些照服員、工作人員不是公務人員，他們享有參與政治及言論的表意自由，這樣子胡亂指控，還後製影片散布，他的意圖不是意圖使某人不當選，要不然就是意圖使那一些族人不敢發聲。我們是民主、自由的法治國家，一再的在國會殿堂上演這種荒唐的戲碼，還要指派議員在地方議會也做這樣的質詢，我覺得原民會作為原住民事務的主管機關，這個部分你們要拿出態度。我其實是想要藉這個機會，讓那些開始害怕的族人知道，行政中立法的規範是適用或準用公務員，並且有他的強度，並不是一般人民，憲法保障我們很多的自由，我們有參政權、選舉權，即便是一般的公務人員，也有參與政治的權利，也有表意的自由，我覺得不需要做到這個樣子，我們很多族人都非常傷心、非常難過、非常害怕，不應該是這個樣子。","既然是公務人員，在這個地方我們就來講好了，我們看一些真正的公務人員，這個都是從新聞隨便抓取的，有一個市長參加某個市府的官方活動，公開說自己正在參選總統，還發表選舉語言，請問一下，我要問誰啊？法務部，有無違法？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，委員所提的違法是指違反行政中立法，還是指違什麼相關法？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：各種法。"],["黃次長謀信：如果是行政中立法的話，那就不是本部所主管的法規……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以啊！今天不叫行政中立法的主管機關來，我就不懂啊！我們要討論這個法，結果主管機關沒有來，我就不知道要怎麼問啊？"],["黃次長謀信：如果是有沒有違反選罷法相關刑罰規定，那要由個案判斷；至於刑罰部分，法務部是主管機關沒有錯，檢察官應該會就這個個案去處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，像這個案例，里長出面用里民聚會的名義借場地，結果最後是辦候選人的後援大會，有沒有違法？"],["黃次長謀信：委員提的還是行政中立的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那問中選會主委，他是選務工作吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：他不是我們的選務工作人員，里長不是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以就問不出來嘛！要找銓敘部來，是嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：其他權責機關。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那再講一個好了，參加官方活動，然後搭配當選的歌曲，在那個地方，公務人員配合喊「凍蒜！凍蒜！」有沒有違法？大家都沒有辦法，因為都不是主管機關。","好，原民會，今天我們也要審查原住民族工作權保障法，我自己的版本就是希望增加就業機會，讓更多人受益，所以我們希望修法，不要限於約聘僱等5類人員，那個太低了，我們希望開放所有職缺，請教原民會，可不可行？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：這個是我們目前送大院的版本，就是希望公部門進用的部分不應該只限約僱人員，這樣沒有辦法提升我們的收入，因為約聘僱人員一般收入比較低，我們希望有更好的保障，讓原住民在公部門可以工作。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝，我們都很期待，那今天能不能出委員會？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：希望大院支持行政院的版本。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：如果這個法案修法通過之後，大約可以增加多少工作機會？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：以目前行政院的版本，可以再增加1萬3,000多個工作機會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：以我們原住民的人口數來講，應該是用不完吧？還是不夠？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：可以充分讓原住民在公部門的就業職務類型，不只大部分都停留在約僱人員身上，不是只有技工、工友。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：可以在各部會、各地方政府裡有更好的升遷機會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。請主席再給我1分鐘，今天審查原住民身分法，請教原民會，因為這次憲法法庭判決出來，我們必須在這個時候針對原母漢父的部分修法，我看你們的版本也同意了，就是冠漢人父親的姓氏，再加原住民的名字，對不對？這個以前我們無法想像的也都通過了，所以我想要請教你，因為原住民身分法連動的就是姓名條例，姓名條例的主管機關當然是內政部，可是我想要先問原民會，你同不同意單列原住民族語？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：在原住民族語言發展法裡已經有原住民族文字這個……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是啊！是啊！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：既然我們是國家的語言，是可以單列的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對嘛！大家都這麼認為嘛！國家語言發展法都出來了，承認我們的文字也是文字，那麼請教內政部，因為我過去質詢時也一再表示，原住民身分法跟姓名條例兩個法是連動的，應該沒有辦法脫勾，因為我們會被影響，而我在第三會期就已經提出姓名條例第二條的修法版本，希望臺灣原住民的傳統姓名得使用羅馬拼音或原住民族文字登記，不受前兩項的限制。不曉得內政部的意見怎麼樣？今天也有排這個法案。"],["陳代理司長子和：跟委員報告……"],["主席：等一下修法時再來談，好不好？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我就是問一下態度。"],["陳代理司長子和：跟委員報告，行政院已經決議朝單列羅馬拼音的方式進行，但後續還要進行相關的溝通協調，等行政院整個政策拍板定案之後，我們會來處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我就是要這個答案，行政院已經同意單列了，對不對？"],["陳代理司長子和：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，感謝，謝謝部長、謝謝主委、謝謝各位長官。"],["主席：邱臣遠、邱臣遠、邱臣遠委員不在。","陳琬惠、陳琬惠、陳琬惠委員不在。","陳亭妃、陳亭妃、陳亭妃委員不在。","劉世芳、劉世芳、劉世芳委員不在。","楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","林文瑞、林文瑞、林文瑞委員不在。","廖婉汝、廖婉汝、廖婉汝委員不在。","現在請陳委員椒華質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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主委好今天內政委員會特別安排行政中立的專報我們也都知道公務人員行政中立法的主管機關應該是在權序部因為今天也沒有來備訓所以我就大概問我們三個部會首先我想要請教一下中選會李主委請您看一下"},{"start":55.134,"end":77.131,"text":"因為在上上個禮拜同樣的時間同樣的地點在我質詢之後聽說有幾位委員就原民會辦的一個叫文化健康站的實施計畫到底有沒有行政中立的問題做了一番質詢討論所以我在這邊請教一下李主委"},{"start":78.252,"end":104.81,"text":"這個文件站它的主辦機關是原民會承辦的機關是縣市政府協辦區公所、鄉公所那麼執行的單位其實是原民團體也就是所謂的協會那這個協會呢它會聘僱一些人員就是所謂的造福人員好 那我請教一下李主委這一些被聘僱的造福員"},{"start":105.891,"end":110.153,"text":"他們適用或者准用公務人員行政中立法嗎?跟委員報告中選會針對我們選務工作人員行政中立我們是有權限所以其他機關的人員這部分因為不是我們執掌範圍之內我們尊重全職機關的處理"},{"start":131.445,"end":140.418,"text":"好來那請教一下原民會主委請教主委吼文件站的造福員適用或准用公務人員行政中立法嗎"},{"start":142.086,"end":169.004,"text":"因為趙輔演是正如剛剛委員所提到的他是文件站執行單位禁用的人員所以對顏明慧來講這個不是機關的聘用人員他是一個民間人員好,就不是嘛,好那因為有人很關心一而再再而三的諮詢所以我也知道你們在有委員諮詢關心之後呢今年的9月以及上一次諮詢完的隔天隔一個禮拜你們也兩度"},{"start":172.486,"end":189.991,"text":"發函給縣市政府以及文件站。」我看到你們裡面的這些內容今天在專報裡面也有寫到就是希望說避免於開站的期間為特定公職候選人公開站開或協助拜票"},{"start":190.771,"end":212.99,"text":"也不應以文件站的名義帶長者去做候選人的競選活動然後非上班時間你們也要求應避免穿著文件站的背心去參加這些活動好 那我請教一下既然有人關心我相信你們應該有去查了有沒有查有沒有查上次提到的那種情形"},{"start":219.88,"end":247.378,"text":"這如剛剛委員提到就是我們已經兩度發函9月13號跟11月28號按照相關的法律的規範那有沒有去查因為我記得那位委員他有要求要查目前我們沒有收到任何的案子所以沒有查到沒有查到沒有查到那我們來看一下因為我是不會做這種事雖然我被指控但是我們看一下一段影片因為這是公開的影片"},{"start":249.059,"end":274.497,"text":"就是那一位委員主委這是文健站吧他帶著另外一位平地原住民候選人也公開穿著他候選人背心"},{"start":281.219,"end":293.103,"text":"他說我要選立委了我都是到文健站各地去報票這是他說出來的話我們再看下一個都是他質詢前的一個禮拜好"},{"start":309.181,"end":331.504,"text":"我要說的是我們也沒有人特別去在意這件事為什麼因為關懷長者我們也很高興而且真的要去追究他是不是公務人員行政中立法說實在你們也回答不出來也沒有辦法就辦那有沒有違反你們一而再再而三講的規定好 真的違反"},{"start":332.225,"end":351.957,"text":"我相信你們的做法也就是進行糾舉之後有可能這個協會可能就列入不適合的辦理單位好但是我要說的是多少年來像我們繼續看這是去年扶植的這些候選人你看到每一個文件站發快篩長年累月去發物資"},{"start":353.078,"end":372.285,"text":"我們也都沒有人為什麼去講這個不會去指責因為關心老人家嘛好事嘛雖然我沒有這個能耐能力沒有這個財力廣潔善言但是我也是祝福啊因為多一點的人去關心老人是好事啊但是我覺得不能因為"},{"start":373.405,"end":390.875,"text":"在很多的縣市暢行無阻就因為在某個縣市我就直接講了因為他也直接講了屏東縣政府要求文件在員工撫選在國會殿堂直接點名因為沒有辦法在這個縣暢行無阻然後還指控直接說伍綠華跟這些員工說不支持我你們就離開就沒有工作"},{"start":403.459,"end":407.681,"text":"更糟糕的是還製作影片散佈你們怎麼會容許這些行為我請教一下因為他有要求調查有沒有跟屏東縣政府調查有沒有掌握到有沒有人指控我不支持就離開"},{"start":426.704,"end":440.649,"text":"就跟委員剛才我講過就是到目前為止沒有收到任何要求調查的案子但是因為是沒有的我是我的個性大家都知道我也敢拍胸脯保證我是很客氣的人我很知道分寸在哪裡我不會幹這些事所以今天的備詢沒有邀請到"},{"start":450.14,"end":466.151,"text":"行政中立法的主管機關群序部所以我覺得也沒有辦法充分討論但是最起碼我想說的是文健站的這些造福員工作人員他不是公務人員他享有參與政治及言論的表意自由"},{"start":467.825,"end":481.615,"text":"這樣子去胡亂指控真的要嘛還做影片後製散布要不然他的意圖就是意圖使某人不當選要不然就是意圖使那一些族人不敢發聲"},{"start":485.827,"end":513.229,"text":"我不太曉得說我們是民主自由的法治國家然後一再的在國會殿堂上演這種荒唐的戲碼還要指派議員在地方的議會也要去做這樣的諮詢我覺得原民會作為原住民事務的主管機關我覺得這個部分你們也要拿出態度那我其實想要藉這個機會只是讓那些開始害怕的族人知道"},{"start":514.605,"end":525.383,"text":"我們的行政中立法是規範適用的是我們的公務員跟這些準用的公務員並且他有他的強度不是一般的人民"},{"start":526.936,"end":549.965,"text":"憲法保障我們很多的自由我們也有參政權、選舉權即便是一般的公務人員他也有參與政治的權利他也有表意的自由我覺得不需要做到這個樣子那我們很多的族人非常的傷心非常的難過非常的害怕不應該是這個樣子所以我在這個地方那既然是公務人員我們就來講好了我們來看一些真正的公務人員這個都是新聞隨便抓的"},{"start":555.02,"end":566.647,"text":"有一個市長他參加某個市府的官方活動公開說自己正在參選總統還發表選舉的語言請問一下我要問誰啊法務部有無違法"},{"start":570.751,"end":574.434,"text":"各種法所以今天就不叫行政中立的主管機關我就不懂啊我們要討論這個法結果主管機關就沒有來我就不知道怎麼問啊"},{"start":589.356,"end":611.86,"text":"對那如果說這是有沒有違反選罷法相關的刑罰的規定倒是個案要去判斷啦那刑罰的部分倒是法務部主管機關沒有錯那刑罰假官他就這個個案他應該會去處理好像這個案例里長出面用里民聚會的名義去借場地結果最後是辦候選人的候議員大會有沒有違法委員提的還是行政中立的問題"},{"start":618.096,"end":643.648,"text":"那問中選會主委他是選務工作他不是我們的選務工作人員里長他不是所以就問不出來嗎要找全序部來是嗎其他權責機關那再講一個好了那參加官方的活動然後呢搭配當選的歌曲然後在那個地方大家公務人員配合喊動算動算有沒有違反"},{"start":648.557,"end":674.742,"text":"大家都沒有辦法因為都不是主管機關好 園民會今天我們有審查原住民族工作權保障法那這個目的我自己的版本就是希望增加就業的機會讓更多的人受益所以我們希望去修不要限於約聘僱五類人員那個太低了那我請教一下我們希望開放所有的職缺請教一下園民會可不可行"},{"start":676.87,"end":699.175,"text":"這個是我們目前送大宴的一個版本就是希望我們不能禁用的部分不應該只限業務人員這樣的話沒有辦法提升我們的這個收入啦因為業務人員一般的收入比較低嘛所以我們希望有更好的這個保障讓原住民在公部門可以工作好 謝謝齁那我們都很期待今天能不能出委員會"},{"start":701.696,"end":722.499,"text":"希望大宴支持行政院的版本那如果這個法案修法通過之後大約可以增加多少的工作機會以目前行政院的版本的話可以再增加一萬三千多個工作機會那以我們原住民的人口數來講應該是用不完吧還是不夠可以充分讓原住民在"},{"start":723.683,"end":750.368,"text":"公部門的就業的職務類型不是只有大部分都停留在業故人員這個地方不是只有機工工友可以在很多的各部會各地方政府裡面有更好的一個升遷的機會好 謝謝那我也想要請教一下今天要審查原住民身份法再給我一分鐘請教一下園民會因為這次憲法法庭判決出來我們也必須在這個時候去做出修法"},{"start":752.009,"end":771.508,"text":"這個關於原母漢父我看我們的版本也都同意了就是冠漢人父親的姓氏再加原住民的名字對不對這個以前我們無法想像的也都通過了所以我想要請教您一下因為原住民身份法它連動的就是姓名條例"},{"start":773.499,"end":792.87,"text":"這個姓名條例當然主管機關是內政部可是我想要先問一下園民會你同不同意單列原住民族群在《原住民族語言發展法》裡面我們已經有原住民族文字 是啊既然我們是國家的語言發展法 是可以單列"},{"start":793.23,"end":817.58,"text":"對嘛大家都這麼認為嘛國家語言發展法都出來了承認我們的文字也是文字那麼請教一下內政部齁因為我一直在講過去質詢的時候說原住民身份條例跟姓名條例齁原住民身份法跟姓名條例兩個法應該是沒有辦法脫鉤啦因為是連動我們會被影響所以我想請教一下好最後最後齁"},{"start":818.18,"end":834.027,"text":"那最後這個就是姓名條例第二條我在第三會期就已經提出修法版本我希望用臺灣原住民的傳統姓名得使用羅馬拼音或原住民族文字登記不受前兩項的限制那不曉得內政部怎麼樣今天也有排這個"},{"start":839.063,"end":860.879,"text":"下修法再來談好不好那我就是問一下態度跟委員報告這個行政院他已經決議朝單列羅馬拼音的方式進行但是後續還要進行相關的溝通協調那等行政院整個政策拍板定案之後我就是要這個答案行政院已經同意單列了對不對好感謝謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝部長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"148979","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148979","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029da0f5676eab701e794fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a032264660bb4e4faf5645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李德維","委員發言時間":"12:47:38 - 13:00:26","影片長度":"00:12:48","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":768,"end_time":"2023-12-11T13:00:26+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T12:47:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1022,"blocks":[["李委員德維：（12時47分）謝謝主席。主席，麻煩內政部林部長、中選會李主委。今天法務部是黃常次，還是……"],["主席：黃常次。"],["李委員德維：好，那就麻煩。"],["主席：林部長、李主委、黃常次。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["李委員德維：部長，我們正副總統選舉罷免法第二十條規定，在中華民國自由地區連續居住六個月以上，而且設籍十五年以上的選舉人，年滿四十歲可以成為總統、副總統的候選人。請教一下，這個部分內政部或者是中選會可以回答一下，我們現在執政黨的副總統參選人蕭美琴女士，他何時在臺灣設籍的？我們先不談國籍，我們講戶籍，你們有資料嗎？"],["林部長右昌：請戶政司來回答。"],["李委員德維：好，戶政司。"],["陳代理司長子和：報告委員，我們有查過他的戶籍資料，他是在91年的時候……"],["李委員德維：91年註冊戶籍，所以在91年以前他在中華民國臺灣地區是沒有戶籍的？是這個意思嗎？對不對？"],["陳代理司長子和：按照移民法的規定，據有中華民國國籍的人有兩種身分，一個是有戶籍的國民，一種是無戶籍的國民。"],["李委員德維：沒關係，所以他真正申請戶籍是2002年，對不對？所以在2002年以前他沒有申請過。那可不可以請教，按照我們蕭副總統參選人的自述，他曾經講到一個問題，他說他為了要申請中華民國的國籍，不管是國籍或戶籍，幾乎跑斷腿。可不可以請教一下，在這個部分裡面，今天外交部是不是也有來啊？既然現在內政部說，他自然就有國籍，那為什麼他會因為申請國籍而跑斷腿？請問內政部有沒有調查，或者外交部當時誰拒絕了他？","我們在這個部分可以看到，1993年（民國82年）蕭美琴女士就擔任呂秀蓮辦公室的實習助理，1995年（民國84年）就開始是民主進步黨駐美代表處的執行長，到1996年開始是民進黨中央黨部國際事務部的副主任。應該這樣講，他當時都沒有申請中華民國臺灣的戶籍，雖然你說他有國籍，但是他都沒有申請。","重點來了，他說他申請國籍，不管國籍或戶籍，他在2002申請了戶籍，因為你說他有國籍。本席想請教的是，在這裡面到底是哪個單位讓他跑斷腿？是你外交部不願意辦？還是內政部要負責？還是臺北市哪個戶政事務所拒絕他？可以講出來嗎？要不要講？"],["林部長右昌：我想我不是很清楚那個時候蕭美琴女士辦理所謂的這些……"],["李委員德維：跑斷腿。"],["林部長右昌：這個問題，不曉得那個情境是什麼樣子。"],["李委員德維：是。"],["林部長右昌：不過，這個跟他的國籍基本上是……我們在法律上，基本上是沒有關係的。"],["李委員德維：沒關係。部長，我當然知道你會這樣回答，但是現在蕭美琴女士既然講，他當時為了不管是戶籍或國籍，他是跑斷腿了，所以本席現在要要求內政部也好、外交部也好，好好地去清查到底當時是誰讓他跑斷腿的。既然他有國籍，為什麼不能申請戶籍？或者他為什麼沒有申請戶籍？當然那是他的問題，但重點是，他講了，他跑斷腿啊！最後他是想要國籍來參選立委，這是他講的。所以這個部分，沒關係，部長，我知道你現在答不出來，但是可不可以請您帶回去，瞭解一下當時他為什麼需要跑斷腿，甚至於參選立法委員才能夠申請戶籍。所以他特別講了，您可以去看，他說2002他當選了立委，然後他非常開心地去放棄美國籍，申請中華民國的國籍，他認為他終於回家了。","好，這也不重要，因為你們現在講的是，他申請了戶籍，他本來就有國籍。重點一句話就是，當時到底是哪個單位，讓他這個有國籍的人不能申請，或者讓他跑斷腿去申請戶籍？"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告……"],["李委員德維：這個政治責任要追究。"],["林部長右昌：我想，這個這麼多年來，我們的戶政機關或者相關機關的服務應該是有增進啦！不過你剛剛提到，那個跟國籍基本上沒有關係。","第二個，申請戶籍的時候，其實就是到他戶籍要申請的所在地的戶政機關去申請。"],["李委員德維：是，所以這個部分，拜託內政部、戶政司可以去瞭解一下，在2002年以前，我們當時的蕭美琴女士，他跑斷腿去申請但卻不得其門而入，到底發生了什麼事？您可以去調查嗎？願意嗎？"],["林部長右昌：不過委員，我跟您報告，這個應該跟所謂的申請，或者……"],["李委員德維：我要講，部長，這個非常、非常重要，為什麼？因為這個牽扯到所有以後在國外出生的中華民國國民來申請戶籍，他需要跑斷腿跟蕭美琴一樣的話，本席不能接受。這不是蕭美琴一個人的問題，是所有人的問題，他31歲以前沒有申請中華民國的戶籍，你雖然說他自然就有中華民國的國籍，但他沒有申請，所以他沒身分證，他沒有中華民國的護照，這一點外交部是不是……因為你沒有戶籍，他應該是沒有中華民國的護照吧！所以這個部分裡面，不只是他一個人的問題，我們現在希望保障的是，所有中華民國的國民以後在國外出生，他都不需要跑斷腿來申請戶籍。"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，現在我們所有的戶政機關都已經全國連線，所以現在已不需要跑到所謂的所在地，其實在任何一個戶政機關，透過我們相關的申請程序……當然如果是國外回來的話，還要經過我們移民機關。現在因為所有的戶所都已經全部連線了，以前並沒有，這點也跟你做說明。"],["李委員德維：瞭解，謝謝部長。","另外再請教法務部次長，按照緩刑制度的立法理由說明是為促使惡性輕微的偶發犯或初犯改過自新而設，而且憲法法庭也解釋，臺灣高等法院108年度抗字第890號的裁定要旨也認為緩刑是一個寬典，請問次長，既然是寬典，被告（受刑人）能夠主動放棄緩刑嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這是一個判決，他沒有放棄的問題。"],["李委員德維：他沒有放棄的問題。公務人員選舉罷免法第二十六條原來的相關規定您都一定非常清楚，但是最後一句話「但受緩刑宣告者，不在此限」，今年我們立法院做了相關的修訂，行政院今年6月提出來的公職人員選舉罷免法修正，這個部分在緩刑期間或者是行刑權因時效消滅，不得登記為候選人。次長，受緩刑不得參選，這個在我們剛剛前面講到的憲法保障人民的參政權，您覺得有疑義嗎？當然今天不只是王家貞這個案子。"],["黃次長謀信：因為選務不是法務部主管，而且這個法規也不是本部主管法規，本部當然尊重主管機關以及立法的形成，所以本部沒有辦法有所評論。"],["李委員德維：好，那本席有一個問題，法務部在這部分願意去研究它的適法性，是不是願意提出來讓大法官來釋憲？法務部的立場呢？"],["黃次長謀信：主管法規的主管機關如果有異議的話，按照我們憲法訴訟法，它是有權力可以做相關的處理。"],["李委員德維：當然主管機關是中選會……"],["黃次長謀信：如果說有法律上的意見，本部作為中華民國法律意見的主管機關，我們可以提供相關的意見諮詢，這是沒有問題的。"],["李委員德維：好，這部分也請法務部來研究一下。","主委，請教一下，這個部分您覺得有沒有必要大法官再來研究一下？"],["李主任委員進勇：中選會的立場，我們在候選人資格審定的時候，完全是根據選罷法的規定辦理。"],["李委員德維：當然，因為你們也是當時修法的主管機關，這一個條文其實當時在這個地方，這樣講不好意思，不只我們國民黨，其實民進黨也有很多意見，但是到後來朝野協商全部被一腳踹翻，回到原點，按照行政院版本，就全部回來了。但是現在的確發生問題，所以中選會基於本法的主管機關，願不願意來思考可以請大法官再來做解釋？因為現在是受緩刑的問題。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們作為選罷法的執行機關，是按照大院所通過的選罷法的規定，嚴格的來執行。"],["李委員德維：好，主委，您自己也是法律人，犯下各式各樣的重罪，執行以後都可以參選，但是現在的輕罪連緩刑，就是所謂的寬典都不能參選，這真的在公平正義上有一些問題，所以本席真的建議要來救濟。","不好意思，因為時間到了，最後一個問題，高雄市政風處在查賄的時候，當然現在有舉報劉秀鳳理事長假藉舉辦70大壽名義為總統參選人來助選。請教法務部次長，有這件事嗎？你們有接到相關的情資嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，政風處、我們檢察官在查察賄選的時候，不論是民眾的檢舉告發也好，或來自政府部門的相關蒐證也好，都會匯集到我們檢察機關來做一個情資的研判。"],["李委員德維：好，這一件事情當然現在媒體報導的不小，所以高雄市政風處真的有相關的情資，是這個意思嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：事實上高雄地檢就這個情資也分案在處理了。"],["李委員德維：在處理了？"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["李委員德維：這個當然是檢察官的權責，但在這部分裡面，各個政黨，尤其執政黨的立委其實也在相關宴會上現身，所以真的要好好的來做調查，我們當然勿枉勿縱，但是也不要讓人覺得這裡面有什麼因人而異或者因政黨而異的事情發生，我覺得都是大家不樂見的。"],["黃次長謀信：不會，檢察官會按照蒐集來的情資，他自己再依個案做研判。"],["李委員德維：好，瞭解，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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這也不重要因為你們現在講的是他申請了戶籍他本來就有國籍重點"},{"start":289.181,"end":300.276,"text":"一句話就是當時到底是哪個單位讓他這個有國籍的人不能申請或者讓他跑斷腿去申請戶籍這個政績實在要追究"},{"start":305.91,"end":328.958,"text":"我想這個這麼多年來應該我們的互證機關或者相關機關的服務應該是增進了不過你剛剛提到那個跟國籍其實基本上沒有沒有關係第二個申請戶籍那個時候其實就是到他戶籍要申請的所在地的這個互證機關去做申請是所以這個部分拜託內政部還有互證師可以去了解一下"},{"start":331.935,"end":358.465,"text":"當時這2002年以前我們當時的小美琴女士她跑斷腿去申請但是不得其門而入到底發生了什麼事您可以去調查嗎願意嗎不過委員會跟你報告這個應該跟因為來來來我講這個非常非常重要不然不然不然我講這個非常重要為什麼因為這個牽扯到所有以後在國外出生的"},{"start":359.622,"end":374.271,"text":"中華民國國民來申請戶籍他要需要跑斷腿跟蕭美琴一樣的話本席不能接受這不是蕭美琴一個人的問題是所有人的問題"},{"start":375.95,"end":405.43,"text":"他31歲以前他沒有申請中華民國的戶籍你雖然說他有他自然就是中華民國有他的國籍但他沒有申請所以他沒有身分證他沒有中華民國的護照這一點外交部是不是因為你沒有戶籍但是應該是沒有中華民國的護照吧所以這個部分裡面不只是他一個人的問題我們現在希望保障的是所有中華民國的國民以後在國外出生"},{"start":406.37,"end":427.976,"text":"他都不需要跑斷腿來申請戶籍剛剛我也報告現在我們所有的戶政機關現在都已經全國連線所以現在你不需要跑到所謂的所在地其實在任何一個戶政機關透過我們相關的一個申請程序當然如果是國外回來的話"},{"start":429.037,"end":440.391,"text":"還要經過我們移民機關那現在因為全部都已經全部所有的戶所都全部連線了那以前是並沒有所以這一點跟你做說明好 了解來 謝謝部長"},{"start":441.721,"end":464.447,"text":"那另外再請教一下來這個法務部長請教一下按照緩刑制度的立法理由說明是惡性輕微的被告或偶發犯出犯改過自新而設而且憲法法庭也解釋臺灣高等法院108年度抗治第890號的裁定要旨也認為緩刑是一個寬點"},{"start":466.763,"end":471.201,"text":"請問次長 這是寬點 被告也就是受刑人能夠主動放棄緩刑嗎"},{"start":473.352,"end":500.934,"text":"公務員辦法這是一個判決他沒有辦法放棄的問題他沒有一個放棄的問題對好來公務員辦法26條原來的規定這些相關您都一定非常清楚但是最後一句話但受緩刑宣告者不在此限那今年當然這個我們立法院做相關的這個修訂行政院提出來的這個部分今年6月工作人員辦法修正所以在這個部分裡面"},{"start":501.955,"end":525.778,"text":"當然在緩刑期間或者是刑刑權因失效的消滅不得登記為候選人請到次長受緩刑不得參選這個在憲法保障我們剛剛前面講到的東西這個人民的參政權您覺得有疑義嗎我們當然今天不只是王家珍這個案子"},{"start":527.028,"end":541.04,"text":"各位報告因為這個不是選務不是法務部主管而且這個法規也不是本部主管法規那本部當然尊重主管機關及立法的形成所以這部分我們本部沒有辦法有所評論那本市有一個問題"},{"start":542.501,"end":558.839,"text":"法務部在這部分願意去研究它的釋法性是不是願意來提出來相關大法官來釋憲法務部的立場跟我們報告這個主管法規的主管機關他如果有異議的話按照我們憲法送法他是有權利可以做相關的權利當然主管機關是中選會"},{"start":560.981,"end":585.248,"text":"法律上的意見本部當作全中華民國的法律意見主管機關我們可以提供相關的意見諮詢這是沒有問題所以這個部分當然也請法務部來研究一下好不好來主委請教一下要不然來換市長請教主委好了主委這個部分您覺得勒有沒有必要大法官再來研究一下"},{"start":586.769,"end":599.226,"text":"中選會的立場我們在候選人資格審定的時候完全是根據選罷法的規定來辦理但是你們也是當時修法的主管機關嘛這一個條文其實當時在這個地方"},{"start":602.731,"end":628.625,"text":"這樣講不好意思不只我們國民黨其實民進黨也有很多意見但到後來朝野協商全部被一腳踹翻回到原點按照行政院版本就全部回來了但現在的確發生了問題所以中選會基於主管機關的這一個部分願不願意來思考可以請大法官再來做解釋因為現在是受緩刑的問題"},{"start":630.925,"end":646.49,"text":"我們作為這個選罷法的執行機關是按照大院所通過的選罷法的規定嚴格的來執行是好來主委您自己也法律人"},{"start":647.87,"end":665.679,"text":"犯下各式各樣的重罪執行以後都可以參選但是現在的輕罪連緩刑就是所謂的寬點都不能參選這真的其實在公平正義上真的有一些問題所以本席真的建議要來救濟最後一個問題來不好意思因為時間到了最後一個問題"},{"start":669.221,"end":683.853,"text":"那個高雄市政風處在茶會的時候當然現在有舉報啊就是劉秀鳳理事長甲介舉辦七字大咒民意為這個總統參選來助選啊那請教法務部好了這位法務部"},{"start":685.415,"end":702.571,"text":"市長有這件事嗎?你們有接到相關的情資嗎?跟我們報告那政風處他我們檢察官在查查會選的時候是民眾的檢舉告發也好或來自政府部門的相關的說證也好他都會匯集到我們檢察機關來做一個請示的研判"},{"start":703.652,"end":722.807,"text":"好所以這件事情當然現在媒體也有報導的不小那所以高雄市增豐處真的有有這相關的一個情資是這個意思嗎那事實上高雄地檢營就這個情資他也分案在處理了在處理了是好當然在這部分裡面這個市長您也當然這"},{"start":724.548,"end":747.211,"text":"檢察官的權責但是在這部分裡面當然各個政黨尤其是執政黨的立委其實也在相關參與宴會的現身所以在這部分裡面當然請這個這個真的要好好的來做調查千萬不要我們當然勿枉勿縱但是也不要讓人覺得"},{"start":749.553,"end":764.585,"text":"這裡面有什麼因人而異或者因政黨而異的事情發生我覺得都是大家不樂見我不會那檢察官會按照收集來請知他在做自己個案在做研判好了解謝謝謝謝主席謝謝接下來請吳立華委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"148978","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148978","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029ecf38a9d415ef17594fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a032225a32fc0a1f089135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游毓蘭","委員發言時間":"12:34:52 - 12:47:21","影片長度":"00:12:29","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":749,"end_time":"2023-12-11T12:47:21+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T12:34:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":965,"blocks":[["游委員毓蘭：（12時34分）謝謝主席。我請林部長、黃明昭署長以及黃謀信次長。"],["主席：請部長、署長、次長。"],["林部長右昌：召委好。"],["游委員毓蘭：三位好。我看到一則新聞，我看得滿難過的，因為去年8月發生的臺南殺警案，有這一個叫做師大數學哥的，他是在曹瑞傑跟凃明誠被殺了之後，他酸臺灣九成警察都是垃圾、廢物，臺南市警察局第二分局調查之後就函送新北地檢署偵辦，但是新北地檢署做出不起訴的處分，家屬聲請再議也被駁回了，結果駁回之後，他就更囂張了，一副好像是司法已經給他背書了，就是他說兩個警察死了都是言論自由。部長跟署長，你們作為警察的大家長，你們對這樣子的言論自由能夠接受嗎？我看到臺南市黃偉哲市長出來撻伐了，但是我想聽你們的聲音。"],["林部長右昌：我想這樣的一個言論當然是不當的。"],["游委員毓蘭：是不當的是吧？署長有沒有更積極的作法？"],["黃署長明昭：我想他這個言論，我們真的深感不妥，而且非常的……"],["游委員毓蘭：這不是不妥，我是憤怒。"],["黃署長明昭：非常的不高興，憑良心講。因為我們員警……"],["游委員毓蘭：署長，因為我做了一些研究，我們辦公室做了研究，我本來今天想要去按鈴申告，我覺得他還有新事證，可是因為兩位當事人凃明誠跟曹瑞傑都已經過世了，所以只能夠由家屬提出。我們署裡面有一個訴訟的基金，署長，我希望我們要用這個基金來支持兩位犧牲的同仁，能夠幫他們贏回這個公道，部長跟署長可不可以做得到？可不可以答應做得到？"],["黃署長明昭：是，家屬已經委由律師提起自訴，自訴部分的律師費用，我們警政署會全力來支持。"],["游委員毓蘭：是，但是我也很希望部長跟署長今天就發布一個強硬的聲明，不要看到只有黃偉哲市長在那邊替警察講話。","兩位請回座，我要問一下黃次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["游委員毓蘭：次長，為什麼新北地檢署會這樣，馬上就給他做一個不起訴？因為我今天看到這個新聞，去年臺北市大同分局的同仁因為去處理家暴的時候，當事人放狗出來咬警察，但是這個檢察官至少讓我覺得還有一點點智慧，至少是要讓當事人認罪、和解，才能夠獲得緩起訴，我們新北地檢署就這樣很輕率的，完全沒有顧慮到警察當時是冒著生命危險，而且這個問題一開始就是法務部矯正署在外役監條例上面有一些疏失，我們居然都沒有一種夥伴互挺這樣的作為，至少要做到讓他們認罪嘛！次長，你覺得呢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，委員剛剛提到新北地檢署那個個案，雖然檢察官做了不起訴處分，臺灣高檢署也駁回了再議的程序，但是整個救濟程序其實還沒走完，現在聲請准許提起自訴的程序，所以個案的狀況會怎麼樣，整個訴訟程序還在進行當中。"],["游委員毓蘭：是，次長，因為您跟警察合作也很久了，我很希望您不要讓其他的檢察官都變成法匠，完全沒有辦法同理我們整個團隊在這邊所做的犧牲奉獻，可不可以回去也加強一下檢察官們的在職訓練好嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，事實上，檢察官的在職訓練，我們不斷的在進行。"],["游委員毓蘭：好，請回。接下來我要請中選會的李主委。"],["主席：李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：召委好。"],["游委員毓蘭：主委，您這段時間也辛苦了。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["游委員毓蘭：不過本會在今年上半年通過的選罷法，包括我們執政黨的莊瑞雄委員都認為這裡面是有一些好像侵害人權之虞，他自己都這麼認為，我們公開都談過的，未來都要聲請釋憲的。公務人員的選罷法，剛剛因為陳以信委員已經跟你討教過了，生效的時間是今年的6月，對不對？但是臺南的這個候選人王家貞，他涉及偽造文書案，法院是在什麼時候宣判緩刑，您知道嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：確實的時間，我並不清楚。"],["游委員毓蘭：沒關係，是今年3月啦。剛剛陳以信委員也提過了，其實王家貞沒有辦法預見這個選擇，他的選擇不管是選擇易科罰金，易科罰金馬上就執行完畢了，跟他選擇緩刑會有這樣的天差地別，甚至於影響到他在憲法保障的參政權，所以我們當然也想要瞭解，在這個案子上面，中選會會有怎麼樣的態度呢？你們在處理上，對於他的身分具不具備候選人資格，能不能預估一下？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員，我想我們審查候選人的消極資格，當然是影響非常重大的，到底這個候選人有沒有參與選舉的資格，這個不是我們能夠有什麼裁量，而是完全必須要嚴格遵守選罷法的規定，選罷法關於消極資格最主要規定的條文就在第二十六條，根據第二十六條第九款的規定，雖然所犯的罪不是一款到六款，是一款到六款以外的罪，但是已經經過法院判決有期徒刑以上的刑確定了，被宣告緩刑或者還沒有執行、執行未畢、行刑權消滅時效等等的情況之下，他就不具備參選的資格。"],["游委員毓蘭：所以你認為他是不具備參選資格？"],["李主任委員進勇：我只是在重複法律的規定是這樣。"],["游委員毓蘭：是法律規定，但是我們如果看到這個法很明顯有違憲之虞，難道我們行政機關不作為嗎？按照釋字第525號，其實我們行政機關是有義務來做一些解釋或是做一個裁量，不是嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們選務機關是依法行政，辦理選務完全是要有法律的根據，尤其選舉是競爭非常激烈的政治活動，所以我們必須要嚴格的遵守法律規定，不能有任何的閃失。"],["游委員毓蘭：主委，因為您當過法官，在這方面，您是專業的法律人，就我一個半桶水的，我都會認為法律上面應該有一個信賴保護原則的。"],["李主任委員進勇：是，委員客氣了。"],["游委員毓蘭：在這部分，當然我剛剛聽到您的確也講12月15日會由委員會來做決定嘛。"],["李主任委員進勇：要審定。"],["游委員毓蘭：要審定嘛，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["游委員毓蘭：但是你開口閉口都是要以現行法律的規定，依法來處理。"],["李主任委員進勇：那當然。"],["游委員毓蘭：但是，主委，我就直接跟您來做一個討論，我們修過法，行政機關未必馬上就會執行，6月30日我們修正通過的還有道路交通管理處罰條例，規定6月30日就要上路的，其中包括上下課或違規臨停以及騎樓停車都規定要記點，併計1點，但是因為計程車、貨運駕駛的陳情，交通部在11月9日宣布暫緩實施交通違規記點。好，也就是當你們如果看到非常明顯的，這是可能侵害我們國人的參政權，有違憲之虞，而且他現在也要聲請，但是要聲請釋憲可能需要法官，我們看到王家貞已經在聲請他的司法救濟了，我覺得中選會在有這麼明確的違憲之虞的時候，你們在15日的委員會應該要考慮大法官解釋的意旨，要保障人權。最簡單且不違憲、違法的做法就是你們透過職權解釋法律，認定基於不溯及既往以及信賴保護原則，凡事所有在新法生效日前就已經宣告緩刑仍在進行中者，應該還是要承認他具有參選的資格。"],["李主任委員進勇：各方的意見，我們在委員會裡面都會充分地討論。"],["游委員毓蘭：都會充分討論？"],["李主任委員進勇：都會充分討論，最終我們就是嚴格遵照法律的規定。"],["游委員毓蘭：是，但是本席剛剛也已經跟您提出來了，交通部對於我們現行、剛剛修過的法律，他們覺得中間有窒礙難行……"],["李主任委員進勇：我不是很清楚，好像是……"],["游委員毓蘭：所以我就知道，因為您會說……"],["李主任委員進勇：一定要經過法律的授權，有訂定實施的日期。"],["游委員毓蘭：它已經訂定是6月30日開始。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們並沒有，我們的選罷法並沒有這個規定。"],["游委員毓蘭：它6月30日就已經在施行中了，它都還可以暫緩，我們中選會仍然執意用這樣子……"],["李主任委員進勇：我不是執意，我守法。"],["游委員毓蘭：你守法，好，但是我們法律上面，如果違反憲法的話，我覺得憲法應該要高於法律之上，所以在這部分，本席還是覺得非常可惜，因為我不希望人家還是惡意地去解讀中選會是成為政治的工具，因為我知道大家都很努力。"],["李主任委員進勇：我想這個言重了，是嚴重的誤會。"],["游委員毓蘭：還是請你們能夠恪守法律授予你們行政裁量也好，或者是在解釋上面的權利。切記我們在釋憲的第525號的……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們嚴格遵守法律的規定。"],["游委員毓蘭：OK，謝謝。"],["主席（游委員毓蘭）：接下來請李德維委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人\n擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名\n條例第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0434687500000002,"end":7.337843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.945343750000001,"end":8.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.36284375,"end":10.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.636593750000003,"end":13.328468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.395968750000002,"end":14.189093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.58534375,"end":17.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.83409375,"end":18.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.36971875,"end":31.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.688468750000002,"end":39.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.10909375,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.07471875,"end":50.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.02721875,"end":61.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.99159375000001,"end":69.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.66971875,"end":70.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.50909375,"end":76.67721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.47034375,"end":80.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.94659375,"end":83.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.74784375,"end":91.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.20659375000001,"end":91.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.27409375,"end":91.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.51034375,"end":91.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.93221875,"end":94.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.30721875,"end":111.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.03596875000001,"end":103.86284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.94721875,"end":105.29721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.63409375,"end":110.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.38909375,"end":120.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.90659375000001,"end":121.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.18909375000001,"end":123.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.69096875000001,"end":130.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.40284375000002,"end":132.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.58409375000002,"end":132.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.61346875,"end":134.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.67659375,"end":135.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.11096875,"end":144.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.32909375,"end":144.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.24034375000002,"end":149.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.51784375,"end":151.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.97346875000002,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.05784375000002,"end":163.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.33034375,"end":182.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.36534375000002,"end":182.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.30596875,"end":184.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.13284375,"end":185.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.11159375000003,"end":186.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.87096875,"end":187.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.73159375,"end":188.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.91284375,"end":191.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.78159375,"end":195.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.15221875,"end":204.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.48846875,"end":206.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.51346875000002,"end":207.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.77909375000002,"end":211.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.55909375000002,"end":213.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.25909375,"end":223.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.04659375000003,"end":226.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.03346875000003,"end":231.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.14659375000002,"end":238.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.44096875000002,"end":245.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.16971875000002,"end":248.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.35909375000003,"end":249.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.30409375000002,"end":251.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.62034375000002,"end":252.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.97034375,"end":254.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.96159375000002,"end":255.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.19346875,"end":256.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.98659375,"end":276.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.39284375,"end":295.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.19409375000004,"end":279.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.64721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對不對但是我們這個王家珍就台南的這個候選人王家珍他涉及的違狀文書案法院是在什麼時候宣判緩刑您知道嗎"},{"start":362.464,"end":372.026,"text":"確實的時間我並不清楚明天請示今年3月啦今年3月所以王家珍其實剛剛那個陳以信也提過了他沒有辦法預見他這個選擇他的選擇不管是選擇一顆髮金一顆髮金馬上就執行完畢了跟他選擇緩刑會有這樣天差地別甚至影響到他在憲法保障的一個參政權"},{"start":390.27,"end":407.746,"text":"所以我們當然也想要了解一下我們州選會他如果在這個案子上面你們會有怎麼樣的態度呢你們在處理上對於他的身份具不具備候選人資格的"},{"start":408.53,"end":427.296,"text":"能不能預知一下謝謝委員我想我們審查候選人的消極資格那當然是影響非常重大的到底這個候選人有沒有參與選舉的資格這個不是說我們能夠有什麼裁量而是完全必須要嚴格的遵守選罷法的規定"},{"start":429.016,"end":451.529,"text":"那選報法關於消極資格最主要規定的條文就在26條根據26條第9款的規定就是你雖然所犯的罪不是一款到六款一款到六款以外的罪但是已經經過法院的判決有期徒刑以上的刑確定了那被宣告緩刑"},{"start":452.609,"end":475.738,"text":"或者還沒有執行執行未必行刑權消滅時效等等的情況之下他就不具備參選的資格所以你認為他是不具備參選資格我只是在重複法律的規定是這個但是我們如果看到這個法很明顯的有違憲之餘的話難道我們行政機關按照我們釋字的第一"},{"start":480.991,"end":503.642,"text":"525號其實我們行政機關是有義務來做一些解釋或者一個裁量不是嗎我們選務機關是依法行政辦理選務完全是要有法律的根據尤其選舉是競爭非常激烈的一個政治的活動所以我們必須要嚴格的遵守法律的規定不能有任何的閃失"},{"start":504.81,"end":520.565,"text":"主委因為您當過法官在這方面你是專業的法律人就我一個半桶水的我都會認為說法律上面應該要有一個信賴保護原則的那在這部分當然我剛剛聽到您的確也講了說你們12月15號會有委員會來做決定要審定對不對"},{"start":528.653,"end":534.667,"text":"但是你開口閉口都是要以現行的法律的規定依法來當然是但是"},{"start":537.799,"end":559.238,"text":"主委就直接跟您來做一個行政機關未必會馬上我們修過法就會執行的6月30號我們修正通過了還有道路交通管理處罰條例規定6月30號就要上路的其中"},{"start":560.359,"end":581.207,"text":"包括上下客、貨、違規、臨停以及騎樓停車都規定要祭典但是因為計程車貨運駕駛的陳情交通部在11月9日宣布暫緩實施交通違規祭典"},{"start":583.598,"end":609.009,"text":"也就是說當你們如果看到的看到說這個非常明顯的這是可能侵害我們國人的一個參政權有違憲之餘而且可能他現在也要申請但是要申請釋憲可能需要法官我們看到王家珍他已經在申請他的司法救濟了我覺得我覺得"},{"start":612.051,"end":615.214,"text":"中選會在有這麼明確的這個違憲之語的時候你們在15日的這個委員會應該要考慮大法官解釋的意旨"},{"start":627.225,"end":653.277,"text":"要保障人權最簡單且不違憲違法的做法就是你們透過職權解釋法律認定基於不溯及既往以及信賴保護原則凡是所有在新法生效日前就已經宣告緩刑仍在進行中者應該還是要承認他具有參選的資格"},{"start":655.851,"end":683.879,"text":"各方的意見我們在委員會裡面都會充分的討論都會充分討論都會充分討論但是最終最終我們就是嚴格遵照法律的規定是 但是本席剛剛也已經跟您提出來了交通部對於我們現行剛剛修過的法律他們覺得中間有不安難行馬上所以我就知道因為您會說聽過法律的授權有定定實施的日期"},{"start":684.798,"end":698.897,"text":"他已經定定是6月31日開始我們並沒有我們的選罷法並沒有這個規定他6月31日已經在施行中他都還可以暫緩了那我們這個中選會仍然就是執意的就用這樣子"},{"start":699.738,"end":704.261,"text":"立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院"},{"start":721.591,"end":744.225,"text":"惡意的去解讀說中選會是成為政治的工具因為我知道大家都很努力我想這個嚴重了嚴重的誤會還是請你們能夠恪守恪守這個法律授予你們這個行政裁量也好或者是在解釋上面的權利切記我們在那個事件的525謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"148977","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148977","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720294ee0de950887a4d994fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a0322d6f935e5ba50cb3a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"江啟臣","委員發言時間":"12:23:11 - 12:34:40","影片長度":"00:11:29","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":689,"end_time":"2023-12-11T12:34:40+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T12:23:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":920,"blocks":[["江委員啟臣：（12時23分）召委，邀請內政部部長還有原民會主委。"],["主席：林部長、夷將主委請。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["江委員啟臣：兩位好。我想我的時間有限，主要今天就針對土地問題，土地問題應該都跟你們部會有關。大家都知道早期在臺灣，早一點的這些農民、祖先等等在山地上開墾，後來因為有些土地就列為林保地、原保地，特別是像原保地這些，所以他們一路在訴求這個土地的權利，不管是使用權或所有權這部分，其實訴求很久。因為本席的選區當中有不少都屬於這樣子的土地，也很困擾。過去不管是內政部、監察院、原民會，其實你們都知道這個問題，我不曉得部長瞭不瞭解，但主委應該很瞭解才對。2010年的時候，內政部曾經針對是否要放寬「還我土地」計畫這件事情有開會，也有一些決議，但是後來也不了了之。2021年7月監察院直接糾正內政部，關於這件事情，應該要有效地去處理。針對這個糾正案，內政部當初認為這不是他們管轄的，應該是國有財產署，而且因為涉及原保地，所以應該屬於原住民族委員會。不管怎麼樣，到現在沒有處理啦，所以這些人也只能抗爭、也只能陳情、也只能無奈！當然，有一些人或許不是真的在耕作，但有不少人真的是祖宗八代一直下來就在那塊土地上面耕作，可是他們面臨使用權、所有權可能統統沒辦法。或許有一些你們說可以修法讓他們租用，但是包括這一塊，到現在我也沒有看到任何處理進度，所以導致這些人也只能不斷地抗爭、不斷地陳情，有一些都已經好幾代了，從他的阿公、爸爸，到他現在，產權各方面都還是不明。所以我想請教兩位，這到底是誰的事情？如果是涉及這麼多部會的事情，為什麼行政院沒有一個政務委員出來協調，就放任這個事情在那裡呢？然後你們面對監察院的糾正也不理啊！這是2021年監察院7月份給你們的糾正，你們有處理嗎？現在已經2023年了耶！"],["林部長右昌：委員，你提的是原保地的問題？"],["江委員啟臣：對啊，就是這些原墾農他們的訴求。他們最早的訴求就是「還我土地」嘛！對不對？不要讓這個事情變成漢人和原住民之間的衝突，不應該是這樣子！它有它的歷史背景，可是也不能因為過去的歷史到現在很複雜，就把它丟著嘛！我想這也是為什麼監察院會去糾正你們的原因，你們也沒有處理，就放任它在那邊啊！","主委，你沒有接到過這些陳情嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，原住民保留地非原住民可以有承租權，因為目前山坡地保育利用條例明定原住民保留地所有權移轉以原住民為限，所以一般非原民的使用權，就是承租權還是可以的。"],["江委員啟臣：承租權也不完整，也不是大家都可以承租喔！有一些它直接命你收回。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：有些個案是因為……"],["江委員啟臣：我們現在遇到有一些是直接要求收回，它也不再租啊！所以我之前找原民會來協調的時候，也找了林務局、內政部、國有財產局，都開過協調會，太多次了啦！我當了快12年的立委，這個議題不知道困擾我們多久，到現在你們沒有一個單位有那樣子的承擔！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我跟委員補充報告一點就是……"],["江委員啟臣：你們說要修原開條例嘛！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：特別提到白毛台的案例……"],["江委員啟臣：不只白毛台，太多了，包括和平地區。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：以這個案例來講的話，我們行政院版的原住民族保留地管理利用條例的草案目前已經在立法院了，那就是要解決這些問題。"],["江委員啟臣：但是前幾天游次長有協商，也沒有共識啊！所以就代表這個問題在這個會期也不可能有結果啦！行政部門的勇氣到底在哪裡？你們的承擔到底在哪裡嘛！對不對？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們願意把條例送到立法院就是要解決這些問題。"],["江委員啟臣：這些不完全是立法院的事情！如果你們行政部門沒有辦法把這個事情做釐清，也不願意去承擔這些責任的話，在立法院怎麼可能談得出共識？不可能有共識的啊！每個立委代表的都是不同的族群，要怎麼有共識？對不對？政府的行政責任在哪裡？你們的行政責任就是解決問題，你要擔起來啊！你們到底要怎麼做啊？你說可以承租，也不見得大家都可以承租喔！並不是喔！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：有些不能承租是因為它超限利用才不能承租。"],["江委員啟臣：超限利用歸超限利用……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：大部分的案例是超限利用。"],["江委員啟臣：我現在講的都是幾十年來人家就在那邊開墾的，甚至……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：有些是借名登記的問題，跟承租……"],["江委員啟臣：甚至早期都還是政府鼓勵開墾的，結果他現在可能連個農民身分都拿不到，為什麼？因為土地問題，要嘛沒有所有權，要嘛沒有承租權、沒有契約，現在如果要重新打契約，一堆新的規定又來了！反正感覺就是：你們趕快走，不要在這邊耕作了啦，我土地要收回啦，這就是我的原住民保留地、這就是我的林保地，我就是不讓你們耕作了！太多了！我遇到太多這樣子的個案了！這些個案過去也曾經有被逼到自殺的，不是沒有啊，我也處理過啊！所以才會有監察院這個糾正案嘛！這難道是在糾正立法院嗎？是在糾正你們耶！你怎麼會反過來跟我們講法案躺在立法院？這根本是標準的卸責！拖了多少年了？這些人……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：監察院這個糾正案是包含借名登記……"],["江委員啟臣：主委，你講話小心一點，我跟你講，如果你們站在處理這個問題的立場上面還是這麼「壓霸」的態度的話……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我沒有「壓霸」啊，我們的……"],["江委員啟臣：你就是讓這些人不斷抗議！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們的法律案已經送到大院這裡了。"],["江委員啟臣：法律案雖然送到這邊，問題是在協商的過程裡面沒辦法達成共識，然後行政部門又挑起什麼責任了呢？難道這個糾正案是監察院在糾正我們哦？是糾正你們耶！糾正內政部，內政部又推給原民會、又推給國有財產署！沒有答案啊！到現在也沒有啊！不然你告訴我怎麼解決嘛！對於這些人的抗爭、這些人的訴求，你告訴我怎麼解決！我是一個民意代表，我不是行政官員，我也不是部長，我能做的事情就是幫他們表達他們的訴求、他們的意見、他們的想法，他們就是想要耕作，他們就是想要合法地祖宗三代都在那邊務農，他能不能在那邊務農下去？你不能一竿子打翻，好像所有的人都是不法的，其實有很多人也是合法在那邊務農的啊！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員，其實有許多案例都是取得承租權，這些案例會後可以給委員做參考。"],["江委員啟臣：有一些有，但是有一些沒有，不然……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：多半有。"],["江委員啟臣：不然不會有那麼多人拿不到農保資格，甚至在受到天然災害影響的時候，政府的補助他也沒有資格拿，為什麼？因為他沒有身分！這裡面還涉及很多其他的問題啦，原漢之間這個我不要講，可是我要跟你講的就是，真正在那邊耕作的人不見得有土地的使用權和所有權，過去因為政府沒有一個法制化的管理，造成這些土地因為被劃歸為原住民保留地，所以只有原住民才能夠有所有權，對不對？但是這些土地能不能賣？你們的規定是怎麼樣你自己也很清楚，可是中間就透過很多私人的不管是租或賣等等的，然後也沒有去管理，最後造成真正在這上面種果樹的、務農的也沒有農民身分，既沒有辦法拿到農保，相關的農業他也拿不到，為什麼？因為土地身分沒有得到證明、沒有得到法律上面的一個合法的保障。","針對這些土地衍生出來的身分問題，我在這邊只是要求你們趕快解決這個問題，而不是要你來這邊推卸責任！難道修了那個法，這個問題就解決了嗎？還有，在這個修法的過程裡面，所有的委員難道對這個問題能夠有共識嗎？因為每個委員背後所代表的，不要說什麼啦，連族群的利益都不見得一樣。所以這就有賴行政部門去看法規上怎麼處理，才能夠得到最圓滿的解決嘛！我們的要求就是這樣子而已，所以你不要在這邊推卸責任啦！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我沒有推卸責任。"],["江委員啟臣：那你就回去看怎麼樣面對這些抗爭啊！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們會把條例送到大院就不是推卸責任啦！"],["江委員啟臣：好，那你告訴我！現在條例也沒有辦法解決啊！的確就是沒有共識啊！沒有共識……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們尊重大院的共識。"],["江委員啟臣：不是「尊重大院」，而是你要去處理那些問題啦！不是「尊重大院」，不然要這個政府幹嘛？對不對？如果這個政府沒辦法解決問題，要這個政府幹嘛？政府就是要處理問題的，不能因為它複雜就不處理啊！","所以你也答不出來啊！"],["主席（鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員代）：接下來我們請游毓蘭召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人\n擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名\n條例第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.53284375,"end":3.3215937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.40159375,"end":7.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.02971875,"end":8.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.582218750000003,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.661593750000002,"end":16.180343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.72034375,"end":22.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.84596875,"end":26.625968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.06471875,"end":28.515968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.207843750000002,"end":31.249718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.70534375,"end":36.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.63284375,"end":43.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.416593750000004,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.440343750000004,"end":60.055343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.10596875,"end":76.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.52534375,"end":76.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.26784375000001,"end":83.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.37221875,"end":85.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.53221875,"end":87.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.25346875000001,"end":89.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.09284375,"end":91.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.48909375000001,"end":92.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.61971875,"end":94.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.67846875000001,"end":98.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.00284375000001,"end":108.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.17846875000001,"end":111.45659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.13159375000001,"end":115.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.69221875000001,"end":117.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.54846875000001,"end":118.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.23596875000001,"end":122.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.74596875,"end":123.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.70784375000001,"end":127.67346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.87596875000001,"end":129.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.49159375000002,"end":135.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.26284375,"end":140.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.35909375,"end":143.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.14346875,"end":145.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.39221875,"end":146.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.53534375,"end":148.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.96971875,"end":148.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.05409375000002,"end":151.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.83846875,"end":153.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.86346875,"end":157.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.91346875000002,"end":166.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.14409375000002,"end":171.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.71721875,"end":173.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.50159375,"end":178.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.26034375,"end":182.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.38221875000002,"end":183.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.72784375,"end":185.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.29721875,"end":187.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.03096875,"end":189.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.07284375,"end":196.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.46846875,"end":201.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.72096875000003,"end":203.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.82596875000002,"end":207.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.57659375,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.25534375,"end":212.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.95971875,"end":215.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.99721875,"end":216.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.77346875,"end":225.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.98721875,"end":227.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.16409375,"end":229.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.84721875000002,"end":231.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.55596875,"end":232.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.34471875000003,"end":234.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.23909375000002,"end":236.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.13721875000002,"end":239.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.00596875000002,"end":242.62596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.67659375000002,"end":243.18284375000002}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請兩位好我想時間有限主要今天要針對這個土地問題"},{"start":22.935,"end":42.515,"text":"那土地問題應該都跟兩個部位有關大家知道這個早期臺灣的這些早一點的農民、祖先等等在山地上開墾但後來因為有些土地又列為林保地、原保地特別是像原保地這些"},{"start":43.576,"end":58.85,"text":"所以其實他們一路在訴求這個土地的權利不管是使用權或所有權這部分其實訴求很久那本是因為我的這個選區當中有不少都屬於這部分的這樣子的土地也很困擾"},{"start":60.732,"end":74.384,"text":"過去不管是內政部、監察院、原民會其實你們都知道這個問題或許我不曉得部長你了不了解但是主委應該了解才對2010年的時候內政部曾經針對這個"},{"start":77.447,"end":97.937,"text":"是否要放寬這環我土地計畫這件事情有開會也有一些決議但後來也不了了之那2021年7月今天才有一個直接糾正內政部關於這件事情就是說應該要有效的去處理"},{"start":99.342,"end":118.002,"text":"那針對這個糾正案內政部當初認為說這不是我管轄的然後應該是有國有差案署又涉及到元寶地所以應該屬於原住民委員會不管怎麼樣到現在沒有處理啦所以這些人也只能抗爭也只能陳情也只能無奈因為"},{"start":119.461,"end":146.36,"text":"當然有一些人或許他不是真的在耕作那大部分有不少人他是真的祖宗八大這樣子下來他就在那塊土地上面耕作可是他面臨到什麼他面臨到說使用權、所有權可能通通沒辦法那或許有一些你們說我來修法讓你去租用但是包括這一塊到現在我也沒有看到任何的處理進度"},{"start":147.594,"end":172.928,"text":"所以導致這些人也只能不斷的抗爭不斷的陳情那有一些都已經好幾代了從他的阿公、爸爸到他現在這個產權各方面都還是不明的所以我想請教兩位就是說這到底是誰的事情如果涉及到這麼多部會的事情那為什麼行政院沒有一個政務委員出來協調勒"},{"start":174.554,"end":187.059,"text":"然後就放任這個事情在那裡然後你們面對監察院的糾正也不理阿這是2021年的監察院7月份給你們糾正阿你們有處理嗎現在已經2023年了委員你提的是元寶地的問題對啊就是這一些元墾農他們的訴求嘛他們最早的稅就是還我土地嘛對不對不要讓這個事情變成是"},{"start":205.238,"end":229.39,"text":"漢人跟原住民之間的變成這樣子的一個衝突不應該是這樣子他有他的歷史背景可是也不能因為過去的歷史到現在很複雜就把它丟著我想這也是為什麼監察院會去糾正你們的原因你們沒有處理就放任他在那邊拿到那個"},{"start":233.413,"end":253.303,"text":"主委你沒有你沒有接受接受過這些陳情嗎跟委員報告原住民保留地非原住民是有可以有陳租錢那因為目前山坡地保育利用條例他是明定"},{"start":254.727,"end":270.996,"text":"原住民保留地的所有錢遺傳是以原住民為限所以一般非原民的部分他的使用錢就是承租錢是還是可以的承租錢也不完整也不是大家都可以承租有一些他直接面臨收回"},{"start":272.159,"end":300.155,"text":"有些個案是因為我們現在所遇到的有些是直接要求收回他也不再承諸所以原民會之前我找來協調的時候我也找了原民會、林務局、內政部跟我參與都開過協調會啦太多次了我擔任快12年的立委這個議題不知道困擾我們多久到現在你們沒有一個單位有那樣子的承擔補充報告第一點就是"},{"start":301.725,"end":330.265,"text":"你們說要修那個原開條例嘛特別提到那個白毛臺的那個案例嘛不只白毛臺 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所以這問題就代表這個會議也不可能有結果啦"},{"start":331.394,"end":356.024,"text":"那行政部門你們的勇氣到底在哪裡?你們的承擔到底在哪裡?我們會願意把條例送到立法院就是要解決這些問題這些不完全是立法院的事情如果你們行政部門沒有辦法把這些事情做釐清也不願意去承擔這些責任的話你在立法院怎麼可能談得出共識?不可能有共識的每一個立委代表的都是不同的族群你怎麼有共識?"},{"start":357.452,"end":386.231,"text":"對不對那你政府的行政責任在哪裡你們行政責任就是解決問題你要擔起來啊你們到底要怎麼做啊對不對你說可以有成豬也不見得大家都可以成豬喔並不是喔有些不能成豬的是因為它是超限利用才不能成豬的超限利用歸超限利用大部分案例是超限利用我現在講的是都是幾十年來人家就在那邊開墾的有些是藉由經濟問題甚至早期都還是政府鼓勵開墾的"},{"start":388.033,"end":416.869,"text":"結果他現在可能連一個農民身份都拿不到為什麼因為土地問題要嘛沒有所有權要嘛沒有承租權沒有契約那現在如果要重新打契約的時候一堆新的規定又來了反正就是感覺就是說你們趕快走啦不要在這邊耕作了啦我土地要收回啦這就是我的原住民保留地這就是我的林保地我就不讓你們耕作了太多了遇到太多這樣子的個案了"},{"start":418.482,"end":435.869,"text":"這些對岸過去也曾經被逼到被逼到自殺的也不是沒有啊我也處理過啊所以才會有監察院這個糾正案嘛難道這個在糾正立法院嗎這糾正你們欸怎麼會反過來糾...來...你來跟我們講說欸躺在立法院這根本是標準的卸責啊"},{"start":440.489,"end":457.675,"text":"拖了多少年了那這些人如果啊主委主委你講話小型一點我可以講你們站在這個問題處理的立場上面如果還是這麼壓霸的態度的話你就是讓這些人不斷的抗議啊對不對"},{"start":460.956,"end":470.16,"text":"法律案的問題是在協商的過程裡面沒辦法達成共識然後行政部門你們又挑起了什麼責任勒難道這個財安署要糾正我們喔是糾正你們勒你糾正你內政部內政部又推給什麼 原民會又推給國有財安署沒有答案啊到現在沒有啊不然你告訴我嘛 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為什麼因為土地身份沒有得到"},{"start":604.366,"end":633.638,"text":"沒有得到證明沒有得到法律上面的一個合法的保障所以這是土地衍生出來它的身份問題我在這邊只是要求你們趕快解決這個問題而不是要你來這邊推卸責任那你難道你修了那個法這個問題就解決了嗎還有在這修法過程裡面你們所有的委員難道對這個問題能夠有共識嗎因為每個人背後所代表的"},{"start":634.568,"end":663.343,"text":"不要說什麼,連族群的利益都不見得一樣所以這就是有賴你行政部門你們要去看法規上怎麼處理能夠得到最圓滿的解決我們要求就是這樣子而已所以你不要在這邊推卸責任沒有推卸責任那你就回去看怎麼樣面對這些抗爭所以把條例送到大院就是不是推卸責任那你告訴我嘛現在也沒有辦法解決啊你那個什麼條例也沒辦法解決啊的確就是沒有共識啊"},{"start":664.584,"end":680.535,"text":"那沒有共識,不是尊重大院你要去處理那些問題啦不是尊重大院,阿不然要這個政府幹嘛對不對,你如果這個政府沒辦法解決問題,要這個政府幹嘛政府就是要處理問題的阿不能因為他複雜,阿就不處理阿所以你也答不出來阿"}]}},{"id":"148970","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148970","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029e0a4cd252e77cba694fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a03228543b75889b48ec65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"11:53:42 - 12:02:04","影片長度":"00:08:22","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":502,"end_time":"2023-12-11T12:02:04+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:53:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":857,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（11時53分）謝謝主席，有請夷將主委。"],["主席：夷將主委，請。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：主委好。主委，去年臺灣加入了由紐西蘭發起的原住民族經貿合作協議，就是所謂的IPETCA，創始的會員國除了有紐西蘭、臺灣，還有加拿大跟澳洲，這是一個國際首創以推動原住民族經貿跟投資議題為主的國際經貿協議。真的非常感謝夷將主委的努力。我們經歷了一年多的籌備，所以這4個會員國其實在APEC期間在美國召開了第一次的夥伴關係理事會，在會中我方有提出3個優先合作項目，第一個就是推動永續旅遊合作，帶動我方原住民族的經濟產業；第二個就是建立官方對官方，還有民間對民間的經貿窗口；第三個是氣候變遷公正轉型的碳匯。","對於這三點，本席真的是非常的肯定，可是除了這三個之外，之後可能還有很多的合作項目可以提出。本席有提出兩個建議，除了旅遊還有經貿的合作之外，其實我們還可以強化、深化再生能源產業跟文創產業。本席提出這一個建議其實也有參考過原民會在2017年對外委託的一個研究，就是臺灣原住民族產業跟紐西蘭貿易之可行性的評估報告，我在想既然我們已經有這個經貿平臺，很多之前委外的研究內容其實都可以在這裡來落實。本席剛剛有提到所謂的再生能源產業，因為臺灣現在也在積極地推行再生能源產業，像我們的會員國紐西蘭，它有80%的電力是來自於再生能源，其中有17.8%是來自於地熱。去年我們再生能源條例在修正的時候，其實也增設了地熱專案。在紐西蘭其實有九個地熱發電區，其中有三個是由毛利人所共同持有管理，紐西蘭的地熱電廠特別在毛利人參與的程度是非常的高，政府更是輔導毛利人自行申請籌建地熱的電廠。","臺灣的地熱潛能資源有40.6%其實是在我們原住民的傳統領域，所以臺灣是否能夠順利發展地熱其實跟原住民族的溝通合作有很重要的關係，所以我們也希望臺灣可以透過原民經貿協議這個平臺跟其他國家取經，跟紐西蘭做一個交流。我不曉得夷將主委跟我們的會員國，有沒有想到以後我們在地熱方面可以來做交流或是做相互的投資？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員做兩點說明，第一點是關於你一開始提到IPETCA這次在美國討論到永續旅遊這個部分的議題，其實明年的世界原住民族旅遊高峰會已經確定要在臺灣舉行。"],["羅委員美玲：明年啊？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：明年的4月。"],["羅委員美玲：是，這是非常好的事。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：第一屆是在紐西蘭，第二屆是今年的上半年在澳洲，第三屆在臺灣是紐西蘭主動推薦給這個旅遊高峰會說希望由臺灣來承辦，我們已經取得承辦的責任，所以明年4月會舉辦，這是第一點說明。","第二點是關於委員最後提到有關地熱的部分，其實我們這幾年跟紐西蘭已經有持續在做相關的交流，他們已經多次來臺灣跟我們分享他們有關地熱，即剛剛委員指教的這個部分。所以像目前在臺東延平的紅葉溫泉，它同時有溫泉跟地熱，這個部分目前公所也正在做這樣的處理，我們也會借助紐西蘭過去的經驗，持續做地熱的發展，讓原住民在再生能源這個部分也有一個實質參與的權益。"],["羅委員美玲：是，我想紐西蘭其實真的有很多可以借鏡的地方。","再來我還有提到文創產業，像臺灣也是南島語族的發源地，臺灣原住民多元的語言跟文化我想應該也是臺灣的一個主流文化，文創產業其實是一個很棒的發展途徑。像IPETCA會員國之一澳洲的新南維爾斯州有十個原住民的土地委員會，他成立了一個國家原住民設計機構就是NADA，我們臺灣也有一個LiMA，可是LiMA畢竟是一個電商平臺，它跟NADA的性質比較不太一樣。像NADA他們會運用原住民的傳統智慧、藝術創作，跟當代的設計進行媒合，然後開發出商品跟作品，他們甚至還會跟原住民的藝術家、設計公司共同開發出比如說具有原住民族風格的傢俱、家飾等等，這些利潤都是NADA或者是藝術家、設計公司共享的。臺灣目前還沒有辦法做到這樣，我們只是提供一個像LiMA這樣的電商平台，我在想會員國澳洲、紐西蘭其實對原住民文化的重視是跟臺灣是一樣的，在文創方面我們是不是也可以跟他們來做一個交流，請問主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員說明，剛剛你提到這個LiMA的電商平台，應該是從去年就開始推動，但事實上我們也有實體的電商平台已經……"],["羅委員美玲：是，它是一個電商平台，就是供商家做商品的展售、展示，可是我們對於設計師、藝術家提供的支援可能沒有像澳洲新南威爾斯這麼的深入，我是這麼覺得。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們這個部分包括鄭文燦副院長還在當桃園市市長的時候就已經完成一個很重要的國際原住民產業園區，應該明年就會正式營運，委員對於文創的建議，我們會納入在整個我們推動跟國際交流合作文創的部分，包括紐西蘭、澳洲，我們會持續交流。"],["羅委員美玲：對，我想我們都是屬於南島語族的國家，我們在這方面應該有很多合作的機會，我們的原住民文化走向國際也是原民會應該要來努力的方向，尤其是我們現在有IPETCA這個平台，讓我們走入國際有更多更多的機會。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：謝謝委員對於原民IPETCA的認知那麼深入，而且完全掌握原民的地熱和文創的部分，謝謝委員對這部分的指教，我們會持續依委員的建議來推廣未來整個原住民族產業。"],["羅委員美玲：謝謝主委，原民會加油！"],["主席：現在休息5分鐘，休息後繼續開會。","休息（12時2分）","繼續開會（12時7分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請莊瑞雄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人\n擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名\n條例第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.36721875,"end":8.384093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.384093750000002,"end":8.434718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.434718750000002,"end":8.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.46846875,"end":8.485343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.485343750000002,"end":8.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.36284375,"end":55.617218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.80284375,"end":65.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.64096875,"end":98.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.12096875,"end":199.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.26971875,"end":215.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.82846875,"end":227.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.28659375,"end":227.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.73784375000002,"end":234.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.03659375,"end":234.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.08721875,"end":237.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.30659375000002,"end":237.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.32721875000001,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.18346875,"end":246.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.87909375,"end":243.03096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.72659375,"end":247.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.43534375000002,"end":251.43471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.77221875,"end":253.17284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.71284375000002,"end":256.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.18909375000004,"end":258.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.79221875,"end":264.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.63096875,"end":265.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.40284375000005,"end":268.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.69784375,"end":269.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.18284375,"end":275.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.42659375,"end":277.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.40096875,"end":280.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.32034375,"end":287.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.78346875,"end":291.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.27221875000004,"end":294.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.90471875000003,"end":296.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.94659375000003,"end":299.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.03909375,"end":338.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.88096875,"end":397.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.53846875000005,"end":398.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.15846875000005,"end":408.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.97971875,"end":411.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.65034375000005,"end":427.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.20284375,"end":412.65846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.55284375,"end":413.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.94721875000005,"end":428.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.04846875000004,"end":430.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.25471875000005,"end":432.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.40221875000003,"end":433.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.54971875,"end":437.93721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.69659375000003,"end":441.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.29096875000005,"end":447.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.59846875000005,"end":445.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.50534375,"end":457.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.05659375000005,"end":478.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.57221875000005,"end":479.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.21346875,"end":481.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.08221875000004,"end":487.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.41471875,"end":495.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.27846875000006,"end":498.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.17659375000005,"end":499.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.26096875,"end":499.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.34534375000004,"end":499.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.42971875,"end":499.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.96971875,"end":500.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.39159375,"end":501.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.40846875000005,"end":501.89346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.232,"end":36.59,"text":"去年台灣加入了這個由紐西蘭發起的原住民族經貿合作協議就是所謂的IPECA那創始的會員國除了有紐西蘭、台灣還有加拿大跟這個澳洲那這是一個國際首創以推動原住民族經貿跟投資議題為主的這個國際經貿協議那真的是非常感謝一將主委的這個努力"},{"start":37.15,"end":54.841,"text":"那我們經歷了一年多的籌備所以這四個會員國其實在APEC期間美國召開了第一次的夥伴關係理事會那在會中我方有提出了三個優先合作的項目那第一個就是"},{"start":55.922,"end":81.687,"text":"推動永續旅遊合作,帶動我方原住民族的經濟產業第二點就是建立官方對官方還有民間對民間的經貿窗口第三還有氣候變遷、公正轉型的碳匯對這三點本席真的是非常的肯定可是除了這三個之外之後可能還有很多的合作項目可以提出本席有提出兩個建議"},{"start":83.067,"end":97.612,"text":"除了這個旅遊還有經貿的合作之外其實我們還可以強化深化這個再生能源產業這個跟文創產業其實本期有提出這個建議其實也有參考過其實我們"},{"start":99.213,"end":105.657,"text":"原住民族產業與紐西蘭貿易之可行性的評估報告那我在想竟然我們有這個經貿平台其實有很多之前我們請委外的這個研究的這個內容其實我們都可以在這裡來做這個落實那美希剛剛有提到就是說所謂的再生能源產業因為台灣現在呢也在積極的推行這個再生能源產業"},{"start":128.973,"end":131.294,"text":"紐西蘭有80%的電力是來自再生能源其中有17.8%是來自於地熱去年我們再生能源條例修正的時候其實我們也增設了地熱專案所以在紐西蘭來講"},{"start":149.625,"end":164.21,"text":"他的地熱其實有九個地熱發電區其中有三個是由毛利人所共同持有管理紐西蘭的地熱電廠特別在毛利人參與的程度是非常的高"},{"start":164.93,"end":187.41,"text":"那政府更是輔導毛利人自行申請籌建地熱的電廠那台灣的地熱潛能資源有40.6%其實是在我們原住民的傳統領域所以台灣是否能夠順利發展地熱其實跟原住民族的溝通合作有很"},{"start":188.21,"end":214.497,"text":"很重要的這個關係所以我們也是希望說我們台灣其實可以透過這個原民經貿協議這個平台然後跟其他國家的這個來取經然後跟這個紐西蘭其實我們可以做一個交流那我不曉得說一將主委在跟我們的這個會員國在以後呢有沒有想到就是說我們在地政方面的我們可以來做一個交流或是做相互的這個投資"},{"start":215.997,"end":234.681,"text":"跟委員兩點的說明第一點是關於你一開始提到的IPECA這次在美國討論到永續旅遊的這個部分的議題那其實明年的世界原民族禮物高峰會已經確定要在台灣舉行明年的試驗第一屆是在紐西蘭"},{"start":239.702,"end":255.709,"text":"第二屆在今年的上半年在澳洲第三屆在台灣是紐西蘭主動推薦給我們這個旅遊高峰會說希望台灣來承辦我們已經取得這個承辦的這個責任所以明年4月這是一點說明"},{"start":257.39,"end":276.7,"text":"第二點是關於委員最後提到這個有關地樂的部分其實我們這幾年跟紐西蘭已經有持續做相關的交流他們已經有多次來台灣來跟我們分享他們有關地樂剛剛委員提到這個部分所以像目前在台東的應該是在"},{"start":278.484,"end":297.093,"text":"原品的紅葉溫泉同時有溫泉跟地熱目前公所也正在做這樣的處理這個部分我們也會藉助我們紐西亞的過去經驗實際做地熱的發展讓原住民在再生能源也有一個實質參與的潛力"},{"start":299.654,"end":317.179,"text":"所以我想說紐西蘭其實有真的有很多可以接近的地方那再來我還有提到文創這個產業像台灣我們也是南島語系的這個運輸的這個發源地那台灣原住民的這個多元的語言跟文化我想應該也是台灣的一個主流文化"},{"start":317.699,"end":337.53,"text":"那文創產業它其實是一個很棒的這個發展的這個途徑那像這個澳洲也就是這個IPECA的這個會員國之一澳洲的新南威爾斯州它有10個原住民土地委員會那成立了一個國家原住民設計機構就是NATA我們所謂的NATA"},{"start":338.951,"end":353.724,"text":"那我們臺灣也有一個LIMA可是LIMA它畢竟是一個電商平臺它跟那個NADA的這個性質比較不太一樣像那個NADA他們會運用原住民的這個傳統智慧跟藝術創作跟當代的這個設計進行這個媒合然後開發出這個商品跟這個作品"},{"start":360.41,"end":388.994,"text":"那他們甚至還會跟這個原住民的這個藝術家、設計公司共同開發出比如說具有原住民族風格的像家具、家飾等等那這個利潤大家都是像NADA或是藝術家跟這些公司它都是共享的那台灣目前還沒有辦法做到這樣我們只是提供一個像LIMA這樣子的一個電商平台那我在想說我們的會員國澳洲、紐西蘭其實他們對於原住民文化的這個重視是跟台灣是一樣的"},{"start":389.954,"end":409.471,"text":"在文創方面我們是不是也可以跟他們來做一個交互的交流請問主委跟委員說明剛剛你提到這個LIMA的電商平臺應該是從去年就開始推動事實上我們也有實體的電商平臺已經是一個電商平臺"},{"start":413.514,"end":437.847,"text":"共商家來做一個商品的一個展示等等可是我們對於這個設計師藝術家的這個提供的這個支援其實可能沒有像說澳中新南威爾斯這麼的深入我是這麼覺得是主委繼續我們這個部分其實包括我們在鄭文昌副院長還在當桃園市長的時候他已經完成一個很重要的"},{"start":439.095,"end":457.01,"text":"國際原住民產業的這個園區這個部分應該在明年就會正式來營運整個委員的這個有關文創的這個建議我們會把納入在整個我們推動跟國際的這個文創的部分包括紐西蘭澳洲這個部分我們會持續做交流"},{"start":457.35,"end":481.139,"text":"對我真想說我們都是屬於南島語族的這個國家我真想我們在這方面應該有很多的合作的這個機會我想說那我們原住民的文化呢主向國際也是一個我想也是原民會應該要來努力的這個方向尤其是我們現在有一個IPECA的這個平台我想在我們走入國際我想有更多更多的這個機會是我很謝謝委員最嚴敏的這個"},{"start":482.399,"end":500.918,"text":"這個IPECA的那個認知那麼深入而且都完全掌握嚴敏的地熱還有包括文創這個部分謝謝委員對這個部分的整個指教我們會持續依委員的這些建議來推動我們未來的整個原住民族產業的這個推廣OK 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Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":700,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:53:26+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:41:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.240343750000001,"end":17.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.37409375,"end":20.922218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.617843750000002,"end":25.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.23346875,"end":32.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.50346875,"end":28.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.42659375,"end":37.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.26971875,"end":47.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.736593750000004,"end":53.862218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.11534375,"end":62.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.329093750000006,"end":64.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.86034375,"end":78.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.09034375,"end":82.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.25846875,"end":84.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.70534375000001,"end":88.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.58659375,"end":90.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.44721875,"end":91.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.15159375,"end":96.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.92284375000001,"end":98.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.15471875,"end":99.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.25159375000001,"end":100.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.44971875,"end":102.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.84596875000001,"end":105.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.38159375000001,"end":106.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.12409375,"end":107.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.19971875,"end":109.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.63409375,"end":115.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.37971875000001,"end":124.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.07471875,"end":142.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.11409375,"end":157.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.30159375000002,"end":158.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.60096875000002,"end":167.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.78096875,"end":173.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.00784375,"end":179.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.10409375,"end":181.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.56784375,"end":184.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.08221875,"end":185.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.49971875,"end":189.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.31784375,"end":189.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.22909375,"end":194.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.13971875000001,"end":198.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.10534375,"end":201.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.60284375,"end":206.34471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.53034375000001,"end":209.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.29346875000002,"end":211.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.99784375000002,"end":213.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.00596875000002,"end":219.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.75596875000002,"end":224.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.05909375000002,"end":234.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.40346875,"end":236.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.80409375000002,"end":240.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.82034375,"end":241.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.90034375000002,"end":242.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.99721875,"end":244.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.65096875,"end":245.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.98409375000003,"end":248.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.97096875000003,"end":250.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.97909375,"end":251.46846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.22784375,"end":253.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.56909375,"end":256.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.58159375,"end":258.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.58971875000003,"end":261.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.69471875,"end":264.02346875},{"speaker":"S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謝謝"}]}},{"id":"148968","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148968","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029932b42ebf8c01e0694fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a0322d9703f2b8768d29e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃世杰","委員發言時間":"11:31:58 - 11:41:28","影片長度":"00:09:30","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":570,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:41:28+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:31:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":775,"blocks":[["黃委員世杰：（11時32分）謝謝主席。我們是不是請法務部黃謀信常次？"],["主席：黃次長請。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["黃委員世杰：次長好。我記得你好像也是我們桃園的鄉親，你老家在觀音白玉，離甘泉寺很近，對不對？你家到甘泉寺走路幾分鐘？應該5分鐘以內就走得到。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員世杰：我很少在這邊講關於個案的事情，但是這件事情跟我們共同的故鄉有很大的關係，所以我希望很明確的請你來進行協助。桃園科技園區在哪裡你知道嗎？桃科。"],["黃次長謀信：在觀音附近。"],["黃委員世杰：在觀音對不對？在白玉跟大潭嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員世杰：有3家SRF電廠要進駐，在地方上產生很大的爭議，你知道這個新聞嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：對，我知道。"],["黃委員世杰：那麼你也知道已經引發了很多的抗議。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員世杰：所以現在其實不管是中央政府或地方政府都在重新檢討當初的這個決定，但是這個過程裡面也引發了一些其中是不是有弊案的爭議，我先讓你看一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["黃委員世杰：次長，你有看清楚嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["黃委員世杰：這個議員你知道是誰嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，我不清楚。"],["黃委員世杰：不瞭解是不是？可能很久沒回老家了。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員世杰：這個議員是我們現任的桃園市議員吳進昌，他就在你的老家觀音的信仰中心甘泉寺前面說了這段話。請教次長，如果這個議員所說屬實，有廠商找民意代表，期約5,000萬這麼大的利益，而且是1年，言下之意就是每年都有喔！然後要求他為一定職權的行使或不行使，這個有沒有觸犯刑法？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，就抽象的法律來講，因為他本身是依法執行公務的人員，他是公務員，貪污治罪條例對公務員行求期約或交付賄賂的話，在法律上是有處罰的規定，我講法律上。"],["黃委員世杰：所以民意代表也是廣義上行使公權力……"],["黃次長謀信：他也是公務員規範的對象。"],["黃委員世杰：刑法上的公務員嘛，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：沒錯。"],["黃委員世杰：所以他所描述的情節，我們檢調單位是不是應該要偵查？"],["黃次長謀信：委員已經問到個案，個案上檢察官如果因告訴、告發、自首或其他情事知有犯罪嫌疑，其所屬地檢署可以依法來處理。"],["黃委員世杰：我知道你們法務部調查局也有肅貪組，地方上也都有據點，知道這樣子的情資，有沒有主動去偵查？因為這個事關我們人民的重大權益，而且5,000萬，如果他議員任期4年，加起來是2億，這麼重大，搞不好破紀錄，如果這個賄款成真的話。而且他還意圖指涉有其他人有相關這些情節，他自己說他自己沒有拿，到底有沒有拿我不知道，他所描述、指控的情節，難道我們的檢調單位不應該主動偵查嗎？不應該請他具體說明嗎？他連相對人都講得相對清楚，那三家裡面有兩家去找他，他只是沒講是哪兩家而已。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，有這樣子的披露，理論上來講，所屬的地檢署知道有這個犯罪嫌疑的話，按照刑訴法第二百二十八條的規定應即開始偵辦，但前提是所屬地檢署要判斷這個案子是不是要啟動偵查。"],["黃委員世杰：我們現在是不是可以請你們轉知，所屬應該是桃園地檢署？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員世杰：還有你們法務部調查局相關的權責單位，就這麼嚴重侵害人民權益，這麼嚴重妨害行政官員以及民意代表執行公務的廉潔性，這種指控這麼嚴重，竟然沒有任何調查，連請這個議員去說一下到底哪兩家去找他都沒有。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，任何人知道有犯罪行為都可以依法提出告發，包括委員今天這個質詢，我們也當作告發案來轉知所屬機關處理。"],["黃委員世杰：好，請你們要很嚴肅認真的去查察，包括這位議員所說的是不是事實，以及他所意圖影射的後面其他人，包含行政官員、其他民意代表。","你知道他講完之後的第二天，我們觀音有兩席議員，另外一席議員就被民眾問說：他拿5,000萬，那你有沒有？","我相信這個事情是非常嚴重的，我們應該要很嚴肅地去看待它，如果連這樣子的披露跟指控都不處理，我們的檢調單位當作都沒看到，要怎麼去取信於人民說我們真的有在維護政府機關，包含民意代表行使職務的公正跟廉潔性？"],["黃次長謀信：是。委員今天質詢之後，我們會把資料轉給桃園地檢署，桃園地檢署會依法處理。"],["黃委員世杰：因為我們有共同的故鄉，希望你站在鄉親的權益上面，一定要嚴加督導這個事情，一定要徹查，可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我沒有權力處理，地檢署……"],["黃委員世杰：我知道你要轉知。"],["黃次長謀信：對，會依法處理。"],["黃委員世杰：我們的檢察體系我知道權力分離。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["黃委員世杰：另外，剛剛很多委員也有提到中國介選，比較常講到的就是假訊息。最近好像橋頭地檢署有個案件涉及用低價、甚至無償招待里長或其他地方人士前往中國旅遊，請問有這個案子嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，現在事實上也不只橋頭地檢署，有好幾個地檢署有類似的案件在偵辦中。"],["黃委員世杰：你們有沒有確實掌握這個所謂的邀請，因為他一定在臺灣有相關組織或窗口做這樣的邀請，不然你怎麼知道要去哪裡報名？"],["黃次長謀信：從各相關地檢署發布的新聞稿來看，甚至有些已經做具體的強制處分，甚至有聲請羈押的動作。羈押或強制處分的前提要有犯罪嫌疑，所以就具體事證來講，所屬的地檢署應該要有掌握，要不然不會做相關的強制處分，甚至聲請羈押的動作。"],["黃委員世杰：辦這個案子不是說事後去補救，如果可以的話，選前剩下三十幾天，這種行為我們要能夠主動遏止，所以我問你說大家有沒有去找到相關的組織，因為你們蔡部長接受媒體訪問的時候已經說這個有可能涉及違反反滲透法的相關法令，所以它不只是單純的賄選或相關一般的國內案件，這個其實跟我們國家的民主、獨立自主有相當大的關係。所以我希望我們的檢調單位能夠正視，而且能夠嚇阻這樣的行為，相關新聞稿出來也要廣為宣傳，跟我們啟動的反賄選查察等等的相關宣傳要結合在一起。"],["黃次長謀信：除了反賄選宣導之外，我們相信最嚴厲、最嚴格的查賄就是最好的反賄，經過我們嚴厲的查賄之後，它其實達到一個宣導的作用。"],["黃委員世杰：好，那我就希望你們在宣導上面，這一種型態也要把它列入。"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["黃委員世杰：很多人可能不瞭解這個事情的嚴重性，事實上很多地方的里長或什麼的，他不知道這件事情有多嚴重，我們應該要加大宣導力度，讓他們不要誤蹈法網。"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["黃委員世杰：以上，謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝委員。"],["主席：等一下在羅委員質詢完之後，休息5分鐘。","現在請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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謝謝主席齁我們是不是請那個法務部黃謀信長次黃次長請委員好市長好朋友好我記得你好像也是這個我們桃園的鄉親嘛對你老家在觀音的白玉嘛對不對魚乾泉寺很近對不對魚乾澇乾泉寺走路幾分鐘"},{"start":31.043,"end":52.581,"text":"應該5分鐘以內就走得到了那今天有一個這個我很少在這邊講關於個案的事情但是這個事情跟我們共同的故鄉很大的關係所以我希望很明確的請你來進行一個協助那麼最近桃園我們的桃園科技園區在哪裡你知道嗎桃科"},{"start":53.241,"end":73.6,"text":"在觀音附近在觀音嘛對不對在白玉跟大潭對那麼有三家SRF電廠要進駐在地方上產生很大的爭議對你知道這個新聞嗎我知道那麼你也知道說所以已經引發了很多的這個抗議對所以現在其實不管是中央政府或地方政府都在重新檢討當初的這個決定"},{"start":76.875,"end":85.36,"text":"但是這個過程裡面也引發了一些是不是在裡面有弊案的一些爭議我先讓你看一下一個影片來放影片有沒有聲音"},{"start":104.145,"end":128.857,"text":"當我在3月份披露當我在3月份披露SRF廠在我們的桃科設廠之後陸續有兩家要來摸頭我在觀音、甘田市慈觀音佛祖面前向大家鄭重報告所說的這個利益"},{"start":130.171,"end":142.138,"text":"他說是前朝決定的我是新科議員我不要講話就好一年要多少要給我五張很大張喔五千萬"},{"start":147.675,"end":173.596,"text":"市長,你看得有清楚嗎?這個議員你知道是誰嗎?不知道解,是不是?可能很久沒回老家了這個議員是我們現任的討議室議員吳敬昌他就在你的老家這個觀音的信仰中心甘玄寺前面講了這段話請教市長,如果這個議員所說屬實由廠商找民意代表契約"},{"start":175.236,"end":187.487,"text":"五千萬這麼大的利益而且是一年了言下之意就是每年都有然後要求他為一定職權的行使或不行使這個有沒有出犯刑法"},{"start":188.568,"end":216.064,"text":"官員報告就抽象的法律來講如果他因為他本身是依法執行公務的人員他是公務員那我們的貪污罪條例上面對這一個公務員行求契約或交付賄賂的話他法律上他是有處罰的規定我講法律上所以這個民意代表也是這個廣義的這個行使公權他也是公務員行法上的公務員嘛對不對所以呢他所描述的情節"},{"start":217.265,"end":240.674,"text":"是不是我們的檢調單位應該要偵查的那委員已經問到個案個案上他那個就是說那檢察官如果說應告訴告發這時候其他行事只有犯罪嫌疑那所屬的管轄的地檢署他可以依法來處理那但是我知道你們法務部電腦局也有這個宿攤組對不對那地方上也都有據點嘛對不對"},{"start":242.174,"end":270.212,"text":"知道這樣的情資有沒有主動去偵查這個是關我們人民的重大的權益而且這個五千萬如果他一人任期四年加起來是兩億這有沒有重大的這個可能是這個搞不好破紀錄如果這個匯款成真的話而且他還意圖指涉說有其他的人有相關的這些情節他自己說他自己沒有拿"},{"start":271.204,"end":288.857,"text":"到底有沒有拿我不知道了那他所描述指控的這樣的情節難道我們的檢察單位不應該主動來偵查嗎不應該請他去具體就說他連相對的講得相對清楚那三家裡面有兩家去找他他只是沒講是哪兩家而已"},{"start":290.803,"end":308.187,"text":"跟我們報告那因為這個有這樣子的披露理論上來講他所屬的地檢署他知道這個有這個犯罪嫌疑的話按照我們刑訴法228條的規定他應急開始偵辦那前提是所屬的地檢署要做一個判斷這個案子是要啟動偵查那我們現在是不是可以請你們轉資這一個"},{"start":310.988,"end":334.404,"text":"所屬應該是桃園地檢署還有你們法務部調查局相關的權責單位就這麼嚴重侵害人民權益這麼嚴重的妨礙我們行政的官員以及我們的民意代表執行公務的連結性這種指控這麼嚴重竟然沒有任何的調查連請這個議員去說一下到底哪兩家去找他都沒有"},{"start":335.612,"end":361.288,"text":"各位報告任何人知道這個有犯罪行為的話都可以依法提出告發報告委員今天在這個質詢那我們也當作告發案來轉知所屬機關其實我們要很嚴肅認真的去查查包括這位議員所說的是不是事實以及他所意圖影射的後面其他人包含行政官員包含其他民意代表你知道他講完之後第二天我們官員有兩席議員"},{"start":362.573,"end":367.008,"text":"另外一席議員就被民眾問說他哪有五千萬那你有沒有"},{"start":368.444,"end":392.737,"text":"我相信這個事情是非常嚴重的我們應該要很嚴肅的去看待它如果連這樣子的披露跟這個指控我們都不處理我們假如大家當中沒看到那我們要怎麼去取信於人民說我們真的有在維護我們政府機關八二民意代表食食植物的公正跟廉潔性"},{"start":393.911,"end":410.02,"text":"是委員今天執勤之後我們會把資料轉給台灣地檢署台灣地檢署會依法處理好那也是因為我們都是共同的故鄉希望你站在我們鄉親的權益上面一定要嚴加來督導這個事情一定要來徹查可以嗎"},{"start":411.302,"end":431.392,"text":"地檢署我沒有權利處理地檢署假、原委員我知道你要組織我們這個檢查體系我知道這個權利分離謝謝那另外還有這個剛剛很多委員也有提到這個中國借選那麼比較常講到就是假訊息那最近好像橋頭地檢署一個案件涉及這個"},{"start":433.682,"end":452.199,"text":"用低價甚至無償招待里長或其他地方人士前往中國旅遊請問有這個案子嗎各位報告現在事實上也不只橋樓地檢署有好幾個地檢署有類似的案件在偵辦中那你們有沒有確實的掌握"},{"start":453.14,"end":482.244,"text":"他這個所謂的邀請或是說因為他一定在台灣有相關的這個組織或是說有窗口來去做這樣的邀請不然你怎麼知道去哪裡報名各位報告那從各相關地檢署發布的新聞稿來看他甚至有些已經做這個具體的強制處分甚至有申請羈押的動作那羈押或強制處分前提要有犯罪嫌疑所以就具體事證來講所屬的地檢署應該要有掌握要不然他不會有做相關的強制處分甚至申請羈押的動作好"},{"start":483.524,"end":505.074,"text":"我們是希望說辦這個案子不是說事後去補救如果可以的話選前剩下三十幾天這種行為我們要能夠主動去把它遏止所以我問你說大家有沒有去找到這個相關的組織因為你們蔡部長協眾媒體訪問的時候已經說這個是涉及到有可能違反反滲透法"},{"start":506.154,"end":525.425,"text":"相關的這個法令所以它不只是單純的這個會選或是說什麼相關的一般的我們國內案件這個其實跟這個我們國家民主的這個獨立自主相當大的關係所以希望說我們的檢調單位能夠正式而且能夠去嚇阻這樣的行為"},{"start":526.665,"end":546.477,"text":"這個相關的信息搞出來也要廣為宣傳跟我們啟動的這個反會選查查等等的相關的這個宣傳要結合在一起各位報告我們除了這個反會選宣導之外我們相信最嚴厲最嚴格的查會就是最好的反會經過我們嚴厲的查會之後它其實達到一個宣導的作用"},{"start":546.923,"end":548.644,"text":"市民、民族、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會"}]}},{"id":"148967","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148967","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a7202993414f19f3c56faf94fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a0322826982371071214a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳以信","委員發言時間":"11:19:37 - 11:31:48","影片長度":"00:12:11","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":731,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:31:48+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:19:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":668,"blocks":[["陳委員以信：（11時19分）謝謝召委，請中選會李主委備詢。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["陳委員以信：主委早。我想要針對臺南市現在的立法委員選舉第五選區，現在候選人是王家貞，他現在因為有一個之前的助理費案件，所以在緩刑當中，我現在要請問關於他登記參選立法委員的資格，中選會現在的認定是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：跟委員做個說明，有關於立法委員候選人資格的認定問題，我們會在這個月15號的委員會議進行認定。"],["陳委員以信：你對他這個案子有沒有瞭解啊？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個案子我是看媒體報導，有一些瞭解，但是真正……"],["陳委員以信：你不知道他這個案子可能有爭議，你們有可能會不受理他的登記，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：最後的結果必須要是15號的委員會來認定。"],["陳委員以信：我當然知道，我們現在就是要來討論這一個事情，為什麼？因為我們已經預先看到這個事情。"],["李主任委員進勇：大家討論的重點可能在公職人員選罷法第二十六條第九款的這個規定。"],["陳委員以信：對！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們就第二十六條第九款的規定，它是非常清楚的，也就是你犯了第二十六條第一款到第六款以外的罪，經過法院判決有期徒刑以上的刑確定了，還沒有執行、或者執行還沒有完、或者是在緩刑中、或者是行刑權時效消滅等等，這些種種的狀況也都是消極資格的情況。"],["陳委員以信：我知道這個修法，這個修法當然還有很多的疑義，這不是我們現在討論的重點。我現在要問的就是，這個修法是在5月的時候進行，王家貞當時案件的判決是在2月，所以他那時候聲請緩刑的時間點是2月，他怎麼會知道3個月之後，他的緩刑聲請會變成他不能夠參選的理由呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們有關於候選人資格的認定時間點就是在登記截止的時間，登記截止的時間也就是24號、到24號。"],["陳委員以信：不是，我是說2月王家貞他要選擇緩刑的時候，他怎麼會知道他如果選擇緩刑，3個月之後會因為修法而沒有辦法取得候選人的資格呢？如果他2月的時候選擇易科罰金就沒這回事啊！他當時信賴緩刑並不會有其他的後遺症，這個信賴為什麼到3個月之後不見了？然後現在中選會可能要以這個理由來剝奪他的參選資格。"],["李主任委員進勇：我想緩刑或者是易科罰金，這是法院的判決來做決定……"],["陳委員以信：對啊，他就是判決他可以易科罰金、也可以緩刑啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：倒不一定是被告……"],["陳委員以信：不是，你現在第九款只有針對緩刑、沒有針對易科罰金嘛，所以他2月的時候如果選擇易科罰金，他現在就可以選了。"],["李主任委員進勇：易科罰金也必須要執行完畢。"],["陳委員以信：易科罰金，錢繳了就執行完畢了嘛。"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["陳委員以信：對啊，所以他當時選擇易科罰金，他現在就可以選了啊！結果他當時選擇緩刑，然後你們現在就有可能按照新法第二十六條第九款讓他不能夠登記。"],["李主任委員進勇：我想不管任何的個案，就是說我們……"],["陳委員以信：什麼不管任何個案！我告訴你喔！來，我問你，刑法第二條是什麼概念？你自己學法律，不曉得刑法第二條是什麼概念？"],["李主任委員進勇：我知道、我知道。"],["陳委員以信：什麼概念？"],["李主任委員進勇：但是這個資格跟刑法那個……"],["陳委員以信：不是！刑法第二條就是罪刑法定主義嘛，如果今天新法跟舊法競合的時候，新法是比較嚴格，他在行為的時候不知道新法的話，那麼必須要怎麼樣？必須要從舊從輕嘛，這是最基本的原則！"],["李主任委員進勇：我想現在……"],["陳委員以信：可是他在2月的時候根本不知道5月會修法，他當時選擇緩刑，之後他怎麼知道他會因為這樣而被剝奪他的參政權？"],["李主任委員進勇：委員的這個意見……"],["陳委員以信：這沒有期待可能性啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：委員的這個意見我們予以尊重，但是因為這已經牽涉到個案了，而且認定的權限是在我們的委員會，所以我也沒有辦法……"],["陳委員以信：我現在就是要告訴你，你們的認定有可能會侵害他的權利嘛……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們一定……"],["陳委員以信：你們在做一個非常嚴重的處理。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們一定是根據法律的規定來做審查、嚴格地來審查。"],["陳委員以信：法律的規定現在就有問題！我現在就要開始講，去年是不是有這樣的案例、洪本成的案例？是不是在彰化有這樣的案例？"],["李主任委員進勇：是，洪本成……"],["陳委員以信：你記不記得？你記得嘛，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：有這個案子。"],["陳委員以信：當時是不是有提出行政假處分？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["陳委員以信：有沒有同意假處分？"],["李主任委員進勇：有……"],["陳委員以信：有同意嘛！來，這個當中為什麼會同意行政假處分？"],["李主任委員進勇：法院……"],["陳委員以信：第一個，它是屬於公法上面的爭議，為什麼？因為是當事人的參政權，跟你們是相對人，所以有公法上的爭議。第二個，對於當事人的參政權而言，如果他這次不能夠選，他的參政權是重大的損害、無法回復，而且無法以金錢彌補，對不對？然後他說，對於你這個相對人而言，如果你現在讓他選，到最後你們認為他不符合消極要件，你們可以怎麼做？你的救濟是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果法院有假處分的話，我們會遵照假處分的規定。"],["陳委員以信：我當然知道！我現在就是要告訴你，如果有假處分，你當然要聽，可是我們現在先看假處分的理由，你本身還有救濟管道，對不對？什麼是救濟管道？你不知道呀？"],["李主任委員進勇：誰的救濟管道？"],["陳委員以信：你的啦！如果現在給你行政假處分，他真的選了、選上了，你怎麼救濟？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們會斟酌案情，看有沒有抗告的必要。"],["陳委員以信：你一定會按照選罷法第二十九條提起當選無效之訴嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：在假處分還沒有確定之前，我們會斟酌他的理由，決定是不是要抗告。"],["陳委員以信：你當然要抗告，你被駁回嘛！你去年的抗告被最高行政法院駁回，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：誰的？"],["陳委員以信：你的抗告啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：洪本成的案件嗎？"],["陳委員以信：對啊！你被駁回對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：本案最後他敗訴了。"],["陳委員以信：那是什麼時候？"],["李主任委員進勇：本案最後……"],["陳委員以信：來，這個就是關鍵了，去年你抗告被駁回，所以他可以選，選完之後你今年又提出選舉無效訴訟，對不對？對不對嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：有選舉無效訴訟。"],["陳委員以信：對嘛！你今年才提嘛！提了以後的結果是另一回事。但是重點來了，重點在利益衡平之下，你現在如果不讓他選，他的權益就是立即重大而且不可回復的侵害，而你！你們相對人是有救濟權的耶！你們有救濟權，所以為什麼高等行政法院跟最高行政法院統統都駁回你們的聲請？而你現在、我們事件發生之初，我就告訴你有這種狀況，你還執意而行，連刑法都不可以從新從重……"],["李主任委員進勇：我現在還沒有執意而行，因為那個必須要15號的委員會來做決定。"],["陳委員以信：如果15號判定讓他可以繼續選，我就跟你說對不起，我就跟你說對不起。"],["李主任委員進勇：這不是我一個人的決定……"],["陳委員以信：所以我就跟你講嘛！我們現在就可以預見15號的狀況，你們極有可能會不受理他的登記嘛！因為你們認為新法已經把他的資格取消掉，而事實上他在新法資格取消的時候，早在3個月之前他根本不知道他沒有期待的可能性，他的信賴利益呢？完全受到侵害！他根本不會知道3個月之後要修法嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們是根據現行的法律規定來進行審查的工作。"],["陳委員以信：所以你現在看到現行法律即將要侵害到他不可回復、金錢無法補償的參政權的時候，你們兩手一攤，什麼都不做嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：不是，如果當事人有其他救濟管道的話，我們也尊重……"],["陳委員以信：我們現在就在救濟啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們也尊重。"],["陳委員以信：我告訴你，現在這個案件已經發生了，你們中選會仍然可以在15號之前做出什麼樣的一個事情，但是我要告訴你……"],["李主任委員進勇：15號之前什麼都不能做，要等15號……"],["陳委員以信：你看看，你剛剛只是不願意告訴我你的結果，實際上你的結果已經不言可喻了嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：15號大家開會、委員會做決議了，我們才會有一個結果出來。"],["陳委員以信：我現在要求你們，你應該要讓委員會的委員知道這個案例，為什麼？因為你們的權力是不對等的，你現在一旦剝奪了他的參政權，事實上他當時沒有其他的可能性，他根本沒有辦法預見3個月之後他選擇緩刑這件事情會被取消參選資格。再來，你現在身為中選會主委，你是有救濟管道的，你的救濟管道就是之後你可以提出選舉無效訴訟，而這個是可以回復的，但對他而言，你現在不讓他登記，他就沒有了，而且最高行政法院的判決裡面講了一個很重要的原則是什麼？即民主原則，也就是說王家貞自己本身有權參政，人民有權利選擇他，這個叫選舉權，我們有權利選擇他，結果人民選擇王家貞的權利被你中選會剝奪了，而剝奪的理由……"],["李主任委員進勇：不是被我剝奪了。"],["陳委員以信：你在認定上面，基本上在認定上是有問題的，因為這個法修得太快！"],["李主任委員進勇：這個修法在今年6月才經過立法院三讀通過……"],["陳委員以信：那我問你，2月的時候他選擇緩刑的時候……"],["李主任委員進勇：是立法院通過的法律、我們根據大院通過的法律來執行……"],["陳委員以信：我問你，2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇緩刑會被剝奪參政權？為什麼？你知不知道4個月以後你會不會下臺？"],["李主任委員進勇：這在立法的過程裡面應該都會有所考量，所以我們……"],["陳委員以信：你不用去考慮立法的過程，我現在要告訴你，你們現在即將要對撞，即將就要發生，這個禮拜就要發生，你們中選會就要做出一個比刑法第二條罪刑法定主義還要嚴格的判斷，從後去剝奪一個人的參政權，參政權是憲法的基本人權，你們中選會就會成為剝奪憲法基本人權的一個幫兇。我現在就要告訴你，現在最高行政法院也好，高等行政法院也好，去年所有的判決都已經講出這樣的原則，更何況你現在身為一個相對人，你有救濟的管道，你憑什麼在之前就不讓他選？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果有法院確定的裁判，我們都會尊重，都會按照確定的裁判來執行。"],["陳委員以信：當然，今天如果有行政假處分的話就這麼做，我現在是希望你們在事前就能夠讓大家知道有這樣的一個案例並充分的討論。"],["李主任委員進勇：事前我沒有辦法，事前我只能夠根據法律規定是怎麼樣，我照這樣來回答委員的質詢。"],["陳委員以信：我希望中選會的委員在開會的時候能充分知道這個案件，做充分的討論！"],["李主任委員進勇：有利、不利的，我們都會予以考量。"],["陳委員以信：這個案件其實是一個……"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有預設立場。"],["陳委員以信：我們今天論辯的這個過程，未來都有可能會進入到憲法法院、憲法訴訟法裡面來進行這樣的討論，為什麼？因為這個法從現在個人的層次，未來如果對於當事人的傷害是確定的話，當事人也不排除會一路走到憲法解釋的層級。"],["李主任委員進勇：是，我們都尊重。"],["陳委員以信：所以我現在要告訴你，中選會身為主管機關，你有可能就是這樣一個可以說是扼殺參政權的劊子手……"],["李主任委員進勇：這個責任我們負擔不起，我們依法執行……"],["陳委員以信：你就是執行人啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們依法執行，不是我們來扼殺他。"],["陳委員以信：你依法執行，但是就會扼殺了這個參政權，我現在要讓你知道，我現在要留下這個紀錄，讓你知道未來一旦進入憲法訴訟的時候，必須要在這個地方來思考如何保障基本人權，這才是我們最主要的目的。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們尊重當事人的權利主張，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝主委、謝謝陳以信委員。接下來請黃世杰委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra 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舉無效訴訟對不對"},{"start":397.474,"end":413.547,"text":"有選舉無瑕事兆對嘛你今年才提嘛提了以後結果是另一回事但是重點來了重點在利益橫平之下你如果現在不讓他選他的權益就是利己而重大而且不可毀損的回復的親愛而你你們相對人是有救濟權的"},{"start":414.895,"end":431.389,"text":"你人有救濟權耶所以為什麼最高等行政法院跟最高行政法院通通都駁回你們的申請而你現在我們事件發生之初我就告訴你這種狀況你還執意而行連刑法都不可以重就重新重奏因為這個必須要15號的委員會來做這個如果你今天15號判定讓他可以繼續選我就跟你說對不起"},{"start":439.235,"end":462.225,"text":"我就跟你說對不起所以嘛我就跟你講我們現在這個預見15號的狀況你們極有可能會不受理他的登記嘛因為你們認為舊法清法已經把他的資格取消掉而事實上他在這個新法資格取消到的這個時候他早在三個月之前他根本不知道他沒有期待可能性他的信賴利益呢完全受到侵害他根本不會知道三個月之後要修法嘛"},{"start":463.072,"end":485.899,"text":"我們是根據現行的法律的規定來進行審查的所以你現在看到你們現行法律要即將侵害到他不可回復金錢無法補償的參政權的時候你們兩手一攤什麼都不做嗎不是 如果當事人他有其他的救濟的管道的話我們現在就在救濟啊我們也尊重我告訴你現在這個案件已經發生了"},{"start":486.859,"end":514.242,"text":"你們現在中選會仍然可以在這個15號之前做出什麼樣的一個事情但是我要告訴你15號之前什麼都不能做所以你看看你剛剛只是不願意告訴我你的結果事實上你的結果已經不言可喻了嘛15號大家開會委員會做決議了我們才有一個結果出來我現在要求你們就是說你應該要讓委員會的委員知道這個案例為什麼因為你們的權利是不對等的"},{"start":515.083,"end":541.868,"text":"你一旦現在剝奪了他的這個選擇權他的參政權事實上他當時沒有其他的可能性他根本沒有辦法預見三個月之後他選擇緩行這件事情會被取消他的參選資格好再來你現在身為中選會你是有救濟管道的你的救濟管道就是之後你可以有選舉有效的訴訟的提出而這個是可以回復的對他而言你現在不讓他登記"},{"start":542.748,"end":568.708,"text":"他就沒有了而且其實在這個最高行政法院的判決裡面講了很重要的一個原則是什麼還有民主原則也就是說王家珍自己本身有權參政人民有權利選擇他這個叫選舉權我們有權利選擇他結果人民選擇王家珍的權利是被你中選會剝奪剝奪的理由不是被我剝奪了你在認定上面基本上認定上面是有問題因為這個法修得太快"},{"start":569.268,"end":585.576,"text":"這個修法在今年的6月才經過立法院單獨通過那我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行的時候是立法院通過的法律我們根據大院通過的法律來執行我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行他會被剝奪參政權為什麼"},{"start":587.287,"end":604.29,"text":"你是不是要四個月以後你會不會下台這個在立法的過程裡面應該都會有所考量你不用去考慮立法的過程我現在要告訴你說你們現在即將要對撞即將就要發生這個禮拜就要發生你們中選會就要做出一個比刑法第二條"},{"start":605.251,"end":630.082,"text":"最新法定主義還要嚴格的這樣一個判斷從後去剝奪一個人的參政權參政權是憲法的基本人權你們中選會就會成為剝奪憲法基本人權的一個幫兇我現在就要告訴你現在最高行政法院也好高等行政法院也好去年的所有的一個判決還有都已經講出這樣的一個原則更何況你現在身為一個相對人你有救濟的管道你憑什麼在之前就不讓他選"},{"start":630.862,"end":659.862,"text":"如果有法院的確定的裁判我們都會尊重都會按照確定裁判來執行當然今天如果有行政假處分的話就會這麼做我現在是希望你們能夠在事前就能夠讓大家知道有這樣的一個案例充分的討論事前我沒有辦法事前我只能夠根據這個法律規定是怎麼樣我照這樣來回答我希望讓中選會的委員在開會的時候能夠充分知道這個案件做充分的討論有利不利的我們都會予以考量"},{"start":661.387,"end":688.555,"text":"這個案件沒有預設立場這個我們今天是有論辯這個過程未來都有可能會進入到憲法法院來憲法訴訟法裡面來進行這樣的一個討論為什麼因為這個法從現在個人的層次如果一旦未來如果說這個對於傷害人當事人的傷害是確定的話當事人也不排除一路會走到憲法這個解釋的程序"},{"start":689.316,"end":701.89,"text":"政績所以我現在要告訴你現在你身為中選會的一個主管機關你有可能就是這樣的一個可以說是扼殺參政權的一個筷子手這個責任我們負擔不起我們依法執行不是我們來扼殺他依法執行但是就會扼殺了"},{"start":710.439,"end":728.162,"text":"二殺的參政權我現在要留下這個紀錄讓你知道未來我們一旦進入到憲法訴訟的時候我們必須要在這個地方來思考如何保障基本人權這才是我們最大的目的我們尊重當事人的權利主張好 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"148966","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148966","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720290eeda929a2a5e6e394fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a03227c441aaa3034334b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"11:07:48 - 11:19:23","影片長度":"00:11:35","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":695,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:19:23+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:07:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":608,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（11時7分）主席，我們請李主委。"],["主席：李主委，請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：主委早。主委，明年1月13日要選舉了，剩33天，你們在12月8日有開一個記者會，說外來介入選舉或賭盤的問題，是不是在很多群組裡也有很多單位叫人去煽動大家，所以你們開記者會說大家可以去找找看這個消息是真的還是假的。主委，像是阿公、阿嬤都是聽收音機，也沒有在用手機，當這些消息傳出來，街頭巷尾一個傳一個，你認為這要如何去宣導比較好？"],["李主任委員進勇：有關錯假訊息的防制，也是我們今年選務非常重要的一點，而錯假訊息的防制，當然我們在第一時間掌握了訊息來源之後……"],["王委員美惠：沒有啦！主委，本席要請教你的是，你們在12月8日的記者會，你說得很清楚……"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有記者會，可能是我們有關澄清的新聞稿。"],["王委員美惠：對啊！你們的新聞稿就是教大家怎麼去瞭解這個訊息是真的還是假的。我現在是要請教你，你要怎麼用這個機會來宣導？來，這樣你要怎麼說？"],["李主任委員進勇：第一個當然是民眾的識讀能力應該要提升，但是這可能不是短時間內能夠做到的，訊息……"],["王委員美惠：短時間沒辦法做到，剩33天就要選舉了耶！"],["李主任委員進勇：有關訊息的真假，其實有一些事實查核機構所提供的資料可以作為參考。"],["王委員美惠：主委，因為本席看到你們發這個新聞稿，我覺得他們這就是在傷害臺灣的民主、選舉，所以隨便發假消息，現在本席就是要跟你們說，你們只說這些沒有意義啦！你叫大家去瞭解……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們第一線一定要及時地說明，透過不同的媒體管道報導出去，讓大家知道。"],["王委員美惠：主委，只有剛開始第一天而已，再來就沒人知道了，收音機等等也可以宣導，有很多宣導方式啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們用多元的管道，也有宣傳的……"],["王委員美惠：因為本席認為好的人才要讓他留下來……"],["李主任委員進勇：也有請麟洋配……"],["王委員美惠：越接近選舉，消息會越恐怖，本來沒有的事情被一直說、說、說，就變成好像真的一樣。"],["李主任委員進勇：其實不只我們中選會在做這個錯假訊息的澄清，政府各部門都有在處理這個部分。"],["王委員美惠：對啦！因為你們12月8日有發這個新聞稿，我是要跟你們說……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們也是職責所在，一定要做的。"],["王委員美惠：我是認為應該可以做得更好啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：好，我們會再加油。"],["王委員美惠：請內政部長及法務部。"],["主席：請林部長及黃次長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：部長好、次長好。本席要和你們探討的是，因為快選舉了，你們有感受到壓力，所以你們在11月30日發布，檢舉境外介入選舉或是賭盤，總統的部分是1,000萬，有這樣鼓勵百姓的……"],["林部長右昌：對，我們有這個獎勵獎金的措施。"],["王委員美惠：有嘛！"],["林部長右昌：有。"],["王委員美惠：本席為什麼要跟你提到這個，因為我們要多宣導。就是因為常常聽到哪裡有賭盤，或是哪裡有招待去大陸玩，說實在的，里長們都很辛苦啦！那是少之又少的里長才會被招待去大陸玩，其實里長說的也沒錯，那不是白白招待，他還要花1萬2,000塊。部長，所以我們的單位要去查核，為什麼里長會被招待，這是很重要的問題。本席要說的是，立委大家都知道里長的辛苦，因為經濟變化，事務費本來是4萬5,000元，去年調整為5萬，因為我們都知道里長很辛苦，只是有少數里長願意被招待去大陸做思想改造，像這樣的事情，部長，你認為要怎麼處理？因為真的有人接受招待哦！這種思想改造的問題很大，部長請講一下。"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，我們一定是經過相關的蒐報，有確定的一些事實，我們會做相關的處理。"],["王委員美惠：部長，你們的單位只要去旅行社查，就會知道有多少人出去、交錢交多少、住在哪裡。如果是去廟會，招待住在廟裡面，這個我們沒話講，但這是住好又吃好，針對這種思維改造，我們真的要有作為。"],["林部長右昌：是，當然。"],["王委員美惠：我認為司法要加強啦，不然只是聽到有人招待，但到目前為止他們都沒事啊，還是繼續在出團，你們講你們的，他們團還是照出。部長，這個問題要注意一下。"],["林部長右昌：當然。"],["王委員美惠：接下來，部長，你也知道我來自嘉義市，而你之前是基隆的父母官。嘉義最特別的就是有一個阿里山，阿里山腳下就是本席所住的地方嘉義市，我們的木都嘉義市有很多木造的房子，約六千多棟，長久以來都無法拿到使用執照。本席要跟你探討的是，在嘉義市一個文創園區裡面，到現在有很多棟歷史建物，其中也有很多你們內政應該要去修法的地方，不然說實在的，如果自己住的只有1樓平房沒差；但因為嘉義市面臨這麼多都是整棟的，未來要做生意也好、年輕人回去要奮鬥事業的也好，未來這要怎麼協助他們？因此你們營建署這方面要與嘉義市政府多聯繫一下。部長，你覺得嘉義市這件事情要如何幫忙協助？來，部長來！"],["林部長右昌：委員你剛剛說的，它是歷史建物還是一般的木造房子，這個不太一樣。"],["王委員美惠：我講給你聽，對，部長，我現在就是跟你說，歷史建物有歷史建物的法條嘛。"],["林部長右昌：對。"],["王委員美惠：而一般住家到目前為止，就是沒有辦法去突破，像我們嘉義市文創園區，一個這麼大的文創園區已經很多年、很多年了，到現在還沒辦法拿到使用執照！"],["林部長右昌：委員，你說文化園區，它既然是在一個園區裡面，應該有相關的計畫才對，而你剛剛說沒辦法取得使用執照是……"],["王委員美惠：這是私人的房子，私人房子未來有關消防的部分，它就沒有使用執照，所以它也不知道要怎麼處理消防。"],["林部長右昌：如果是私人自己使用是沒有這個問題，它要是……"],["王委員美惠：它從過去到現在都沒有申請建物的，就是人家說的違章建築。"],["林部長右昌：但違章建築它是不是有保存的價值，這可能要……"],["王委員美惠：部長，非常有價值！"],["林部長右昌：非常有價值？"],["王委員美惠：所以我希望部長跟營建署、嘉義市政府，這不是要申請你們的費用，只是要怎麼樣協助地方的問題。"],["林部長右昌：是，委員你剛剛說到文化園區，在個案的部分，是不是容會後我請國土管理署跟你討論、研究一下。"],["王委員美惠：部長，我認為我們不是只討論文創園區裡面，對我們這六千多棟的木造房屋也要關心，所以本席希望可以早日讓嘉義市這些木造的有一個保障，能夠多協助！"],["林部長右昌：是，我們再跟委員討論一下，因為木造也有很多不同的類型……"],["王委員美惠：對！"],["林部長右昌：我們再研究看看是不是有辦法來處理。"],["王委員美惠：因為我們以前都是建造鋼筋的，鋼筋的法律就是不同嘛，我們現在是要顧這些木造的，看看要怎麼保存？"],["林部長右昌：我們來研究一下。"],["王委員美惠：以上，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，現在叫做國土管理署，不是營建署。","繼續，陳以信委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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像你這樣要怎麼說第一個當然是我們民眾的這個嗜讀的能力應該要提升啦齁但是這可能不是第一期間內有辦法做到的這個訊息第一期間沒辦法做到做到33天要甩機了但是這個訊息的真假其實還是有一些事實查核的機構他們所提供的這個資料都可以作為參考的"},{"start":145.345,"end":152.829,"text":"因為主委是因為本席看到你們有發展出來的時候我覺得就是傷害台灣的民主、選舉、歐美共現在本席就是要跟你說跟你們說這個"},{"start":163.914,"end":167.257,"text":"這件事沒意義啦你叫那些人去了解我第一時間一定要說明即時的這個說明那透過不同的媒體的管道要把它說出去讓大家知道主委大那天而已啦再來都沒人知道啦"},{"start":184.393,"end":192.175,"text":"我們也可以收銀機也可以說什麼都可以很多選擇的方法多元的管道多元的管道因為我就是覺得說要有好的領袖要讓人留下因為留下的時候這個消息會越來越恐怖如果沒有"},{"start":205.25,"end":209.419,"text":"一直說 說 說 阿伯有贏了其實也不只是我們選委會在做這個挫甲訊息的澄清政府還有部門都有在處理這件事"},{"start":217.16,"end":230.666,"text":"對啦,我覺得就是說因為他們有12個設備,你們做這個動作,我是要...我們也是職責所在,一定要做的。對啦,我覺得應該可以再做就好了。好,我再介紹,我再介紹。來,請補充法務部,來。林部長、黃次長。"},{"start":241.93,"end":248.075,"text":"來 部長 市長在這裏 大家好我們想跟你談到的就是說應該是最近的選舉 你們有覺得有壓力嗎在一月三十 我們有發佈一個說因為你們如果請我介入選舉的位"},{"start":267.178,"end":271.986,"text":"還是多半的問題選舉的時候總統一千萬有這個問題嘛有這個高的背勢"},{"start":278.292,"end":284.72,"text":"對,我們有這個獎勵的一個獎金的措施有啦齁,因為本席是怎麼會跟你說這些呢?因為我們要多宣導,因為跟他有聽說,跟他再加多半,跟他再交代要去台六七十,跟他給大家說,跟他說實在的啦"},{"start":297.316,"end":311.019,"text":"每個里長都很辛苦的啦,那是少之又少的里長才會向交代去出頭啦,說實在里長他講的也不對,我不是白白交代捏,我還要開辦理考慮捏,所以部長那個我們的單位要去找好,因為"},{"start":320.701,"end":325.744,"text":"事由：立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":344.935,"end":349.798,"text":"這屆任期本來4萬5,調整至5萬,因為我們知道立法院大家都辛苦嘛,只是說辛苦的時候有10萬的願意交代要去做"},{"start":363.425,"end":377.668,"text":"思想的問題裏面像這樣補充你認為要怎麼做?因為真的有人交代去喔來補充你講一下這種思想改造這是非常問題很大我們一定是經過相關的一個搜報他有確定的一些事實我們會做相關的一個處理"},{"start":392.708,"end":397.35,"text":"因為部長您的單位說實在最近有多少出去嘛跟您查嘛,您能誰知道有多少嘛出入有多少人嘛,一到一到多少嘛,住在什麼嘛您如果說啊,我們又廟火,大家交代去住廟的地方,這我們沒話說這期住好又吃好,這思維改造真的我們要有作為"},{"start":422.163,"end":440.033,"text":"因為我覺得要加強啦,不敢聽到說還有人交代、還有人交代還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交"},{"start":447.276,"end":467.744,"text":"在這裏你也知道我來自嘉義市嘛你也是北部縣嘛一家人因為嘉義最特別的就是有一個阿里山嘉義阿里山的橋下就是本省首都的地方就是嘉義市現在很多我們的目睹嘉義市有不怕的會出"},{"start":472.568,"end":480.271,"text":"很大的六千多棟在這裏長久以來都沒有發動起到使用這招本事要跟你探討的就是在嘉義市一個文創園區裏面也有很大棟的到現在立法院的建物裏面也有很多應給你們內政的"},{"start":497.737,"end":507.579,"text":"要去修化一下,不說實在,你若自己長大,加上一年後賺到的沒差,那因為家庭錢沒領的,這些都整棟的,未來要做生意也好,年輕人回去要發表事業也好,未來這要怎樣去讓他們協助,因為我們這個營建事業,"},{"start":521.522,"end":532.133,"text":"要多聯繫,跟這裡的市政府要多聯繫一下,那部長你覺得自己在這件事你要如何,有覺得要怎樣去幫助嗎?來,部長來"},{"start":539.963,"end":550.473,"text":"委員你剛才說的那個記的是歷史建物還是一般的木造的房子這個不太一樣我現在就是要說有歷史建物的法條"},{"start":559.221,"end":574.275,"text":"這裏我們站著的、會站著的現在到不成為之,就是無法去突破像我們文創園區、嘉義市,一個這麼大的所在的文創園區,已經很多年、很多年,到現在還無法站著使用這間"},{"start":581.215,"end":600.142,"text":"文化園區一個人在一個園區裡面應該有相關的價位才對你剛才說的沒辦法輸到修容這是樹林的樹他在樹林的樹的時候就是說未來消防的他如果沒有修容這條樹他也不知道要怎麼消防他如果到處都是樹林去修容是沒有這個問題他是以前到現在都沒有"},{"start":609.125,"end":609.868,"text":"申請檢抹的就是人家在說的違章建築的"},{"start":615.08,"end":627.667,"text":"但違章建築亦是否有保存的這個階段這可能要來...喔!沒錯!很有階段的!喔!很有階段!對!所以說我問問部長及營建署及嘉義市市政府喔!這沒有形成我們的費用,這是要怎樣如果對應這個問題,到底要怎麼做?"},{"start":641.656,"end":652.669,"text":"委員是不是你剛才說到這個文化園區在個案的部分是不是在農會後我請國土管理署我認為我們不是說文創園區裡面"},{"start":657.395,"end":673.249,"text":"我們這個六千多棟的木造的所在我們也要去關心所以說本身我們也能夠將日期這個木造的有一個保障我們要跟委員來討論一下因為木造也有很多不同的類型我們要研究看看是不是有辦法來處理"},{"start":682.757,"end":686.442,"text":"致敬的、致敬的法律就是無綱我們現在是國家的募集要如何保存我們來研究一下以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"148965","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148965","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029b7fcdcf16758d48a94fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a0322db95e054bd3dacb45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"11:01:27 - 11:07:38","影片長度":"00:06:11","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":371,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:07:38+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:01:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":565,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（11時1分）我先請內政部林部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，我們今天的題目就是警察不在籍投票，我想請問一下，其實現在我們雖然沒有不在籍投票，但我們的工作人員都有移轉投票的制度了，對不對？如果我是警察或是選務人員，今天我要去擔任選務人員的話，就是可以在工作地點投票了，對不對？"],["林部長右昌：直轄市或者縣市……"],["張委員宏陸：都可以了嘛？"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我們的警察應該也都是有這樣了嘛？"],["林部長右昌：我們會儘可能的……當天因為選舉有選務的勤務，不過這個已經行之多年，我們在選前都會請各警察機關去排定輪休，或者是讓內勤同仁做相關的支援，另外也希望讓員警能夠一方面完成勤務，二方面也可以輪流去投票。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！現在其實就有這個制度了，對不對？那只是……"],["林部長右昌：一直以來……"],["張委員宏陸：都有嘛！"],["林部長右昌：其實因為民主選舉已經有一段滿長的時間，現在都越來越順暢，我們會儘可能讓同仁能夠回去投票。"],["張委員宏陸：現在其實制度是有了，只是因為勤務、因為輪休的問題，可能沒有辦法百分之百而已，對不對？"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得其實警察的權利，他有他的投票權，當然我們要保障，其實如果把它做得再精進一點，能夠讓比例越高，我覺得是會比較好，對不對？是嗎？"],["林部長右昌：是，沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：好，其實我們就是朝這個方向去努力，我覺得尤其是儘量讓基層員警可以有比較多的機會去投票，我們應該朝這個方向來努力。好，謝謝，謝謝林部長。","我來請中選會李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，我們選務人員的修正，公務人員比例從二分之一調為三分之一，今年選務人員的招募，明年投票有沒有比較順利？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝貴院修法的幫忙，自從公務人員的比例從二分之一調降為三分之一，今年的招募工作進行得比以往都要順利得多。"],["張委員宏陸：都沒有問題啦，全臺灣都沒有問題。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們原來規劃是10月30號以前要完全招募完畢，其實各地選委會都超前。"],["張委員宏陸：而且這次選務人員的工作費其實也有調高。"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["張委員宏陸：應該也是增加了不少誘因。"],["李主任委員進勇：是，謝謝大家。"],["張委員宏陸：不過這邊有一個要跟主委說，我在基層聽到，我們投開票所其實有分大小，我舉例就好，新北石碇的豐田里投票人數才八十幾個人，我再舉一個我們板橋有一個投開票所─社後，就五千多人，大家都想要去比較小的，工作輕鬆，同樣的一天，這樣子嘛！工作輕鬆嘛！未來投開票所工作費用其實對特別的，比如說五、六千人以上的這種，是不是也有特別的獎勵？不一定是錢，可能記功等什麼有沒有往這個方向來思考？這樣子才不會說……任務繁重的、人越多的，其實我認為更需要有經驗的人，我們如何讓更有經驗的人願意去人口數比較多的地方做選務人員？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員的關心，其實我們要感謝全國所有的選務工作人員，大家都是來奉獻、服務的，所以不大計較。當然勞逸的問題會因為投開票所規模大小而有所不同，至於會不會根據勞逸不同的情況來做工作費的調整，工作費支給辦法最近行政院剛剛支持修正通過，我們會在試辦一段時間後再來進行檢討。"],["張委員宏陸：好。我的意思不是只有增加工作費，公務人員有敘獎什麼的，他的勞務……"],["李主任委員進勇：那這個沒有問題。"],["張委員宏陸：我說的是這個，我剛也講不是……"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["張委員宏陸：如果單純去調高那個部分，可能也不一定馬上可以做得到。"],["李主任委員進勇：是，勞逸的問題有不同的獎懲標準，我們想應該是要這樣做。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！所以我的意思是第一步，從敘獎等等這方面，可以從制度上來做，而且這不用修任何的法令啊！對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的，我們會這樣來辦理。"],["張委員宏陸：可以嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：可以。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。主委請回座。","接下來請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人\n擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名\n條例第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.41034375,"end":4.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.607843750000001,"end":8.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.585968750000003,"end":13.817843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.459093750000001,"end":17.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.867843750000002,"end":40.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.90221875,"end":41.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.830343750000004,"end":42.994718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.994718750000004,"end":43.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.02846875,"end":43.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.36596875,"end":43.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.56846875,"end":48.377843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.086593750000006,"end":75.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.98534375,"end":82.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.61346875000001,"end":91.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.92909375,"end":85.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.03409375000001,"end":88.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.32909375,"end":103.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.44159375000001,"end":100.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.55534375,"end":100.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.49159375,"end":118.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.94909375,"end":119.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.43846875000001,"end":119.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.82659375,"end":144.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.84346875000001,"end":119.86034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.43409375,"end":120.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.18096875,"end":147.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.22221875,"end":170.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.88034375,"end":154.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.07721875000001,"end":163.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.12284375000002,"end":168.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.65409375000002,"end":183.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.12034375000002,"end":187.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.62221875,"end":193.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.43534375000002,"end":201.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.68721875,"end":202.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.04159375,"end":205.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.96096875,"end":206.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.91846875000002,"end":213.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.00596875000002,"end":223.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.50659375,"end":239.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.37909375,"end":229.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.08221875,"end":239.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.11596875,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.95096875000002,"end":242.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.30534375000002,"end":263.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.46221875000003,"end":273.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.19909375000003,"end":287.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.15471875000003,"end":305.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.41784375000003,"end":322.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.23784375,"end":336.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.50284375,"end":328.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.58721875000003,"end":328.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.88221875000005,"end":331.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.36721875,"end":336.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.43409375000005,"end":337.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.15971875,"end":343.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.42471875,"end":348.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.10721875,"end":361.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.52909375,"end":350.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.71721875000003,"end":361.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.66221875,"end":362.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.10096875000005,"end":363.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.43409375000005,"end":363.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.50159375000004,"end":364.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.41284375000004,"end":364.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.69971875000005,"end":366.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.79221875,"end":367.61909375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.638,"end":4.799,"text":"我先請內政部林部長請部長部長我們今天我們今天題目就是"},{"start":17.932,"end":40.182,"text":"警察不在即投票我想請問一下其實現在我們雖然沒有不在即投票但我們的工作人員都有移轉投票的制度了嘛對不對如果我警察或是我選務人員我在我今天我要去擔任選務人員的話我就是可以在我的工作地點投票了吧"},{"start":41.102,"end":48.176,"text":"對不對直轄市或者縣市都可以了嘛所以我們的警察應該也都是有這樣的嘛"},{"start":49.293,"end":75.098,"text":"我們會盡可能的因為當天因為選舉有選務的這個勤務不過這個已經行之多年我們在選前都會請各警察機關去排定輪休或者是讓我們的內勤的同仁這個來做這個相關的一個支援那另外也就是希望就是說讓員警能夠在一方面完成勤務那二方面也可以輪流去做投票"},{"start":76.958,"end":99.948,"text":"現在其實就有這個制度了啦 對不對一直以來 因為民主選舉已經有一段蠻長的時間現在都越來越順暢我們會盡可能的讓同仁能夠回去投票現在其實制度是有了啦只是說因為勤務因為輪休的問題可能沒有辦法百分之百而已啦 對不對我覺得其實"},{"start":103.65,"end":118.052,"text":"警察的權益他有他的投票權我覺得當然我們要保障我覺得就是說其實我們如果就是把它做到再精進一點能夠那個比例越高我覺得是會比較好啦 對不對"},{"start":121.734,"end":140.703,"text":"其實我們就是朝這個方向去努力就我覺得盡量尤其是讓基層的員警他可以比較有比較多的機會啦這個他能夠去投票我覺得我們朝這個方向應該來努力啦好謝謝林部長那我來請這個中選會那個李主委"},{"start":153.915,"end":169.609,"text":"主委我們選務人員的修正公務人員比例從二分之一調為三分之一在今年這樣子在今年的選務人員的招募在明年投票我們有沒有比較順利"},{"start":171.818,"end":183.489,"text":"謝謝貴院的修法的幫忙自從這個公務人員的比例從二分之一調降為三分之一那今年的這個招募的工作是進行的比以往都要順利的多"},{"start":184.218,"end":205.034,"text":"都沒有問題在我們原來規劃是10月30號以前要完全招募完畢其實各地選委會都超前而且我們這一次的這個選務人員的工作費其實也有調高我們應該也是增加了不少誘因謝謝大家"},{"start":207.14,"end":222.429,"text":"不過這邊有一個就是要跟主委就是說我在基層上我聽到的就是說我們投開票所其實有分大小有的啦我舉例就好了"},{"start":223.61,"end":248.569,"text":"我們新北時定的豐田里才80幾個人投票人數我們我再舉一個我們板橋有一個投開票所、社後就5000多人大家都想要去比較小的工作輕鬆同樣的一天這樣子工作輕鬆有沒有我們未來"},{"start":250.53,"end":272.618,"text":"這一個我們這個投開票所這個工作的費用其實會特別的比如說到五、六千人以上的這一種我們是不是要有特別的獎勵不一定是錢可能你的技工你的什麼這個我們有沒有這個方向來思考這樣子才不會說很"},{"start":274.298,"end":286.438,"text":"任務繁重的人越多的其實我認為是更需要有經驗的人去嘛那我們如何讓有更有經驗的人願意去人口數比較多的地方來做這個選務人員"},{"start":288.927,"end":304.543,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,其實我們要感謝所有全國的選務工作人員,大家都是要來奉獻、服務,所以沒什麼藉口就對了當然這個勞役的問題會因為投開票所規模的大小而有所不同"},{"start":305.664,"end":321.991,"text":"至於會不會根據這個勞役不同的情況來做工作費的調整我想我們的這個工作資給工作費的資給這個辦法最近剛剛行政院支持修正通過了我們會在事辦一段時間之後再來進行檢討"},{"start":324.412,"end":346.851,"text":"我的意思不是只有增加工作費啦是我們公務人員有續獎有什麼的啊那他的勞務那這個沒有問題我說的是那個我剛才講不是不是你如果單純是調高那個可能也不一定馬上可以做得到不易的問題而有不同的獎程的標準這是我們想應該是要這樣子做"},{"start":349.173,"end":367.128,"text":"要這樣子做對嘛所以我意思說從我們第一步我們的這一個這個續假這個等等的這方面我們可以從這個制度上來做而且這個不用修任何法律是的是的對不對我們會這樣子來辦理可以啦可以好那謝謝主委好謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"148964","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148964","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029835cceac2c888d6894fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a0322ef5a74ead98971cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:51:26 - 11:01:16","影片長度":"00:09:50","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":590,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:01:16+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:51:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":428,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（10時51分）請中選會主委。"],["主席：李主委，請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委早。今天總統、副總統的號次已經抽定了。"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：之前沸沸揚揚討論總統、副總統候選人資格審定的時候，請教你們那時候說三組候選人都審定合格嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：請問三組候選人的審定，你們是進行形式上的審查還是實質上的審查？"],["李主任委員進勇：是實質的審查。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，實質上的審查。當初在討論有關什麼回復國籍、雙重國籍，或是回復或歸化這部分的時候，你們都有相關的資料吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們有向內政部函查，內政部也非常清楚地告訴我們，三組候選人、六個候選人裡面沒有任何一個有回復國籍或是歸化國籍。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你們是按照內政部的公文嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：那當然！因為它是主管機關。"],["陳委員玉珍：它有沒有檢附相關的事證？沒有嘛？就只有公文嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：它告訴我們結果。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你們是按照內政部的公文告訴大眾說都符合資格，是內政部告訴你們符合……"],["李主任委員進勇：這個是非常明顯而且確定的。"],["陳委員玉珍：是內政部說的，那我們請內政部。所以有沒有人自始就有中華民國國籍或者原來是美國籍後來是歸化、回復？這部分內政部有做實質的審查嗎？"],["林部長右昌：就內政部的部分，我們有進行相關的查證。"],["陳委員玉珍：有實質查證就對了？"],["林部長右昌：當然。"],["陳委員玉珍：包括他的過去，是不是？"],["林部長右昌：對，我們會查他的戶籍資料。"],["陳委員玉珍：戶籍啦！那國籍的部分呢？"],["林部長右昌：也一樣，我們會查國籍……"],["陳委員玉珍：都有做詳查喔？"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你們手上有相關的資料嗎？"],["林部長右昌：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：很詳細的資料，這部分是不是應該公開提示給社會大眾知道？"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告一下，第一個，不管是蕭女士的父親或是他個人，從來都沒有喪失國籍的資料，所以他自始至終就是中華民國國籍。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛！那應該會有相關的資料，每個人不管從戶政或是國籍都有相關的事證嘛……"],["林部長右昌：他就是有國籍啊！他並沒有任何……"],["陳委員玉珍：你說他自始至終沒有喪失……"],["林部長右昌：他並沒有任何喪失或者回復的資料，他沒有申請，當然就沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：你至少會有他的相關資料，公告給大眾知道嘛！"],["林部長右昌：委員所謂的相關資料指的是？"],["陳委員玉珍：比如我們看到蕭美琴副總統候選人當初自己在媒體上說他只有美國籍啊！他說過他自己只有美國籍啊！"],["林部長右昌：不過那個是……"],["陳委員玉珍：是他自己說的喔！這不是我們說的。"],["林部長右昌：我們依法、我們依法，但是他……"],["陳委員玉珍：但他自己這樣說，到底他原來的中華民國國籍是因為他放棄美國籍以後，就回復中華民國國籍呢？還是什麼情形？我想……"],["林部長右昌：沒有，委員……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們既然查證過了，你們是怎樣認定的？你們應該把這個過程公諸給大眾知道，以減少社會的對立，讓大家都清楚。"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告，這非常簡單，因為他從來沒有喪失，所以他當然也沒有回復……"],["陳委員玉珍：你的意思是他面對媒體……"],["林部長右昌：所以他並沒有喪失，也沒有回復的資料。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你的意思是他面對媒體訪問時是說謊的？"],["林部長右昌：不是，我想他有可能……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是？所以他誤會就對了？"],["林部長右昌：對，他有可能是誤會。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你說我們這個副總候選人的認知能力有問題？"],["林部長右昌：沒有，不能這樣子講。"],["陳委員玉珍：對於自己的國籍都沒辦法認知清楚。"],["林部長右昌：我想並不能這樣子……"],["陳委員玉珍：在年輕的時候都沒辦法認知自己是美國籍還是中華民國籍，或是有雙重國籍……"],["林部長右昌：我想非常清楚，只要是中華民國的國籍，一出生的時候他就具有中華民國國籍。"],["陳委員玉珍：他認為他自己只有美國籍，你們卻幫他認定他有中華民國國籍，那我現在說他的認知錯誤，你就說不是……"],["林部長右昌：委員，我們依法，依法他就是有中華民國國籍。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道你們依法，我們這樣爭辯的話，事實上會陷入各說各話，所以我希望你們把查到的事證、你們怎麼認定的，或是你們根本沒有做任何查證……"],["林部長右昌：我剛剛已經講得很清楚了……"],["陳委員玉珍：反正你們就認為他爸爸原來就中華民國……"],["林部長右昌：不是、不是。"],["陳委員玉珍：他爸爸原來就是中華民國國籍，也有相關事證吧？你把它公告出來啊！"],["林部長右昌：沒有，委員，他從來沒有申請喪失……"],["陳委員玉珍：我請問你，我說我有中華民國國籍或者我說我沒有中華民國國籍，你們來認定的時候說我本來就有，就憑你說有就有嗎？"],["林部長右昌：不是，我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：一定要有相關事證嘛！"],["林部長右昌：委員你這樣子在邏輯上面可能有一些問題……"],["陳委員玉珍：我邏輯上沒錯！我想請問你，蕭美琴自己說自己只有美國籍，你們卻說他從來就有中華民國國籍，所以我說那表示他當初在受訪的時候說錯，有可能他說錯了，我們也不要說他說謊，他可能說錯嘛！對不對？"],["林部長右昌：委員，我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：有可能是說錯啦！對不對？"],["林部長右昌：那部分我們是就行政機關，我們國籍法……"],["陳委員玉珍：那不然怎樣？他是說錯還是認知錯誤？"],["林部長右昌：我們國籍法的相關規定。"],["陳委員玉珍：他要嘛就是說謊，要嘛他自己認知錯誤，覺得自己只有美國籍嘛！"],["林部長右昌：委員，我覺得這樣子繞圈圈……"],["陳委員玉珍：一個要當我們副總統的人對自己的國籍，這麼年輕的時候都會認知錯誤，這個……所以我說我們這樣繼續爭辯，實際上意義小，也會增加衝突，現在都已經抽籤了嘛！"],["林部長右昌：委員，我覺得沒有什麼衝突，因為這非常清楚……"],["陳委員玉珍：我說你們是不是把這些東西弄清楚，公諸大眾，他父親原來就有中華民國國籍，我舉例，比如說他父親一定有出國嘛！他後來有去美國嘛！一定有中華民國護照什麼這類的東西，他什麼時候取得，時間點寫出來給社會大眾知道，以釋眾疑嘛！讓社會減少衝突啦！"],["林部長右昌：委員，其實這樣子繞圈圈沒有意義。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，你們不提供出來，反正今天就是內政部說了算啦！反正也不用提供……"],["林部長右昌：不是，我們依國籍法相關規定去進行查證，查證的結果，他就是有中華民國國籍。"],["陳委員玉珍：查證就沒有什麼資料可以給大家看的啊！"],["林部長右昌：因為他從來沒有喪失，他也沒有申請喪失，他也沒有回復的必要。"],["陳委員玉珍：他有取得中華民國國籍嗎？"],["林部長右昌：他當然有啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：他什麼時候取得？為什麼自己認為沒有呢？他自己說沒有，我也不知道為什麼……"],["林部長右昌：那個時候我不曉得。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以他年輕的時候，心目中只有美國這個國家？"],["林部長右昌：我想委員這樣子說……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，他自己認為他只有美國籍啊！這是他說的，不是我說的。"],["林部長右昌：委員你個人的意見，尊重！"],["陳委員玉珍：我說我們不用爭執，我說你把查的東西……你不公告也就算了，反正這個就會變成一個……"],["林部長右昌：這個沒有什麼公不公告的問題，我們在上個禮拜的新聞稿裡面已經講得非常清楚。"],["陳委員玉珍：對啊！都是用新聞稿嘛！這就像蔡總統說他有論文什麼都是用新聞稿，東西公布出來嘛！以釋眾疑就好了，沒關係哦！我問下一題，對不起！","來，因為時間有限，你們也不公告，反正就憑一紙公文，以後做什麼事情只要你們的公文就可以了。"],["林部長右昌：委員，這不能這樣子講，我們依國籍法，我們依法行政，他沒有任何回復……"],["陳委員玉珍：你把時間點嘛！時間點……"],["林部長右昌：他沒有申請喪失，他就是中華民國籍啊！這麼簡單，就是這樣子啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我接受的說法就是，蕭美琴以前在接受媒體訪問的時候，他要嘛認知錯誤，要嘛他說謊，就這二個嘛！還是媒體報導錯誤？他要澄清啊！"],["林部長右昌：尊重委員你個人的意見。"],["陳委員玉珍：尊重我的說法，對啦？"],["林部長右昌：尊重你個人的意見。"],["陳委員玉珍：只有二個可能啦！二個可能之一啦！","好，我想請問我們上個月修總統副總統選舉罷免法，這個一起修的，記得嗎？在我們委員會有修這個法，對吧！我想請問部長，總統副總統選舉罷免法裡面有沒有規定二個政黨可以聯合推薦總統副總統？來，誰會回答？就是選舉罷免法第二十二條第一項有沒有規定二個以上政黨可以聯合推薦？答案在這裡，哪一位回答呢？"],["簡簡任視察鈺珒：報告委員……"],["陳委員玉珍：是哪一個單位？還是中選會上來回答？當然這個法令是內政部管的，還是中選會要幫忙回答？這是哪一位？"],["簡簡任視察鈺珒：報告委員，依照總統副總統選舉罷免法規定，是得有二個以上政黨共同推薦。"],["陳委員玉珍：可以嘛？"],["簡簡任視察鈺珒：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：可以嘛！依法是二個政黨可以聯合，也可以共同推薦，對不對？好，請問朱立倫、馬英九、侯友宜、柯文哲那時候討論要聯合推薦總統副總統，這個有什麼問題？為什麼會被告搓圓仔湯？請問以後二個政黨如何聯合推薦？二個政黨在討論到底怎麼樣聯合推薦，這個有什麼問題？"],["林部長右昌：這個就尊重提告人的主張跟訴求。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你認為應該沒有這樣的問題啦？"],["林部長右昌：提告的人去提……"],["陳委員玉珍：提告的人當然任何人都可以提告……"],["林部長右昌：對，任何人都可以提嘛！"],["陳委員玉珍：對，你認為呢？你對於這個法令的解釋呢？你覺得可不可以聯合推薦？"],["林部長右昌：沒有，我想我們不方便在這邊談論候選人，現在已經……"],["陳委員玉珍：我沒有叫你談論，我要討論這個法令─第二十二條第一項。"],["林部長右昌：現在已經進入提名登記，今天也已經抽籤了。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，以後有可能還是會……我們也不是針對這個案子，我們只是說以後也有可能會發生嘛！以後政黨可不可以聯合推薦嘛？"],["林部長右昌：這個我們可能要看他過程裡面的……"],["陳委員玉珍：可不可以一起討論聯合推薦這件事情？"],["林部長右昌：但是他不只是討論所謂聯合推薦，他也許還有其他談論的事情嘛！所以這要看具體的事證跟提告人的訴求。"],["陳委員玉珍：OK，所以你覺得被告發這件事情，如果就你的法律判斷，覺得告發這個事證會成立嗎？"],["林部長右昌：沒有，我不是法官，我沒有辦法去判斷這個。"],["陳委員玉珍：你沒有辦法，反正任何人都有提告權利，我也接受啦！不過濫用司法資源或只是為了創造一些……這次當然是過去了，以後還是有可能發生嘛！我們既然總統副總統選舉罷免法裡面有這一條可以政黨聯合推薦，當然各個主要政黨的主要領袖人物坐在一起討論如何聯合推薦，也不應該是一件犯法的事情嘛！對吧？"],["林部長右昌：我剛剛講過了……"],["陳委員玉珍：我不是針對這個案子，我說以後還有可能會發生。"],["林部長右昌：我剛剛講過，當然他依二個政黨合作的程序去進行，這在法裡面是允許的……"],["陳委員玉珍：是可以允許的，好，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：但他有沒有其他的事情就不曉得，所以要尊重提告人提告的內容。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝部長。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請張宏陸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra 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也會增加衝突那現在會有錢錢了嘛我說是不是你們把這些東西弄清楚公諸大眾嘛他父親也要去有中華民國國籍 比如說我舉例 比如他父親一定有出國嘛 他後來有去美國嘛一定有中華民國護照啊 什麼這類的東西啊他什麼時候取得什麼時間點寫出來給社會大眾知道"},{"start":323.021,"end":348.662,"text":"以恃眾疑﹑這個社會檢討這個寵物﹑其實這樣子繞圈圈沒有意義今天就是內政部說了算反正也不是提供我們依國籍法相關的規定去進行查證查證的結果他就是有中華民國因為他從來沒有上司他也沒有申請上司他有取得中華民國國籍嗎他當然有啊他有什麼時候取得為什麼自己認為沒有呢"},{"start":349.93,"end":350.771,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":367.81,"end":393.952,"text":"有什麼公布公告的問題我們在上個禮拜的新聞稿裡面已經講了非常多都是用新聞稿嘛這就像蔡總統說他有有那個什麼論文什麼都是用新聞稿東西公布出來嘛以示眾議就好了沒關係喔我問下一題對不起喔來因為時間有限喔那個來你們也不公告就反而憑一紙公文以後做什麼事情只要你們的公文就可以了委員這個不能這樣子講我們依國行法我們依法行政他沒有任何回覆"},{"start":395.133,"end":423.322,"text":"時間點嗎?他沒有申請上司他就是中華民國籍啊這麼簡單就是這樣子啊那我接受你的說法就是說蕭美琴在以前在接受媒體訪問的時候她要麼認知錯誤要麼她說謊嘛就兩個嘛還是她還是媒體報道錯誤就尊重委員你個人的意見尊重你個人的意見只有兩個可能啦兩個可能之一啦好來我想請問喔這個我們的我們上次不是上次修這個總統副總統選舉罷免法吧這個一起修的嘛記得吧在我們這裡委員會有修這個法"},{"start":424.769,"end":432.576,"text":"我想請問這個總統副總統選舉發言法有沒有規定裡面有沒有規定有兩個政黨可以聯合推薦總統副總統誰會回答就是選舉發言法第22條第1項有沒有規定可以聯合推薦兩個以上的政黨哪一位回答"},{"start":449.179,"end":471.648,"text":"這是哪一個單位?還是中選會要這樣回答?當然這個法令是內政部管的還是中選會要幫忙回答?報告委員,依照總統選舉、副總統選舉罷免法規定是得有兩個以上政黨共同推薦可以嗎?可以嗎?依法是兩個政黨可以聯合、也可以共同推薦嘛對不對?好,那請問這個朱立倫、馬英格、侯偉克、問責那時候討論要聯合推薦總統、副總統這個有什麼問題?"},{"start":478.173,"end":480.843,"text":"為什麼會被告什麼縮延載趟"},{"start":483.956,"end":505.831,"text":"那請問以後兩個政黨如何聯合推薦?兩個政黨在討論說到底怎麼樣聯合推薦?這個有什麼問題?這個就尊重提告的人他的一個主張跟訴求所以說你認為應該沒有這樣的問題了齁?那個提告的人提告的人他當然任何人都可以提告任何人都可以提嘛你認為呢?你對這個法律的解釋呢?你覺得可不可以聯合推薦?我想我們不方便在這邊談論這個候選人他現在已經我現在要討論這個法律現在已經"},{"start":510.314,"end":537.929,"text":"現在已經進入到那個沒有以後還是有可能今天已經抽籤了我們也不是針對這個案子我們只是說以後有可能會發生嗎這個我們可能要看他的這個我們可能要看他過程裡面看他過程裡面的可不可以在一起討論說聯合推薦這件事情嗎但是他不只是討論這個所謂聯合推薦他也許還有其他的這些談論的事情嘛所以這要看他的具體的事證跟提告人他的訴求OK"},{"start":539.33,"end":567.605,"text":"所以說你覺得這個被告發這件事情你如果就你的這個法律判斷你覺得這個告發這個施政會成立嗎沒有我不是法官我沒有辦法你不要吧反正你任何人都有提告權我也接受不過濫用司法資源或只是為了創造一些這當然是這一次當然是過去以後還是有可能發生我們既然總統副總統選舉辦法一定有這一條可以政黨聯合推薦當然各個主要政黨的主要的領袖人物坐在一起討論如何聯合推薦也不應該是一件犯法的事情對吧"},{"start":573.087,"end":585.238,"text":"我剛剛講過當然他依兩個政黨合作的一個程序去進行在法裡面是允許的但他有沒有其他的事情就不曉得所以要尊重提告人提告的那個內容"}]}},{"id":"15347","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15347","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea12c81503aa54e7224bbec9c895510aaa46d53a332764a535aa2f99442aa469485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-11","start_time":"2023-12-11T09:30:00+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-11T15:44:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":22440,"委員發言時間":"09:30:00 - 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主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員13人以主法定人數現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1818.12,"end":1839.113,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議一事錄,時間112年12月7日星期四上午9時至下午2時17分,地點紅樓202會議室,出席委員游玉蘭委員等13人,列席委員高金素美委員等3人,列席官員、內政部部長林佑昌、海洋委員會政務副主任委員周梅烏等,"},{"start":1839.733,"end":1854.951,"text":"主席羅昭及委員美玲討論事項因《中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸交層法》審查委員莊岳雄等17人及委員蔡奕宇等16人分別理據《中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸交層法》第18條條文修正草案案"},{"start":1855.672,"end":1883.6,"text":"二槍炮彈藥盜竊管制條例部分條文修正草案審查行政院行刑審議槍炮彈藥盜竊管制條例部分條文修正草案繼續審查委員鄭天才等21人你具槍炮彈藥盜竊管制條例第5條之2條文修正草案繼續審查時代力量黨團你具槍炮彈藥盜竊管制條例第20條之1條文修正草案繼續審查委員張其祿等18人你具槍炮彈藥盜竊管制條例第5條之1及第20條之1條文修正草案"},{"start":1885.061,"end":1899.375,"text":"繼續審查委員陳明文等18人及委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人分別擬具槍炮彈藥、刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案審查委員蔡奕宇等19人擬具槍炮彈藥、刀械管制條例第7條及第22條條文修正草案"},{"start":1901.116,"end":1919.669,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等16人擬具槍炮彈藥盜竊管制條例第4條條文修正草案審查委員王美惠等22人委員游玉蘭等16人及委員陳亭飛等16人分別擬具槍炮彈藥盜竊管制條例部分條文修正草案討論事項和並詢答委員游玉蘭、莊瑞雄說明提案要旨"},{"start":1920.289,"end":1936.4,"text":"內政部部長林佑昌海洋委員會政務副主任委員周梅武報告委員由玉蘭等13人質詢由內政部部長林佑昌海洋委員會政務副主任委員周梅武及相關人員答覆說明登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢"},{"start":1937.36,"end":1951.745,"text":"尋答結束委員林文瑞所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一周內立以書面答覆並複製本會決議一中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸交層法等二案"},{"start":1953.171,"end":1975.433,"text":"一、第18條趙委員、莊瑞雄等17人提案通過二、審查通過文資及相關法之用與授權主席及議事人員整理三、B案審查完畢你據審查報告提報院會討論不需交由黨團協商並推請羅召集委員美琳於院會討論時做補充說明二、槍炮彈藥、刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案等11案一、第4條增訂"},{"start":1977.154,"end":1995.841,"text":"第4條、增定第5條之3、第13條、增定第13條之1、第18條、第20條之1、增定第20條之3、第25條軍造行政院提案通過二、委員張其祿等18人提案第5條之1、委員陳柏惟、許志傑等18人提案修正第5條之2維持現行法條文不予修正"},{"start":1997.062,"end":2010.517,"text":"3、第5條之2除第1項第6款文字修正為持有人受判處有其徒刑以上之刑確定且未經宣告緩刑或經宣告緩刑被撤銷及第3項目標文字修正為但無行為能力忍者不得申請繼續持有"},{"start":2011.838,"end":2026.53,"text":"未成年人之繼承及使用最相關規定另由中央原住民族主管機關定之其餘均照行政院提案通過修正行政院提案立法說明第二點二及補充行政院提案立法說明第五點如下"},{"start":2027.27,"end":2052.225,"text":"二、考量緩刑制度細微促使惡性輕微之被告或偶發犯出犯改過自刑而設為鼓勵自刑員修正第一項第六款將與規定持有人受判處有其徒刑以上之刑確定者除有第六項情形外皆因撤銷或廢止其許可修正為持有人受判處有其徒刑以上之刑確定且未經宣告緩刑或經宣告緩刑被撤銷時不予撤銷或廢止其許可"},{"start":2052.885,"end":2067.583,"text":"五、為配合原住民之傳統文化與盜竊持有人死亡、團結解散、重新申請許可持有者或自製獵槍持有人死亡時第三項修正準與其未成年人即用其相關規定授權管理是以利用中央目的事業主管機關訂定之"},{"start":2069.405,"end":2087.565,"text":"4、委員陳明文等18人、委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人提案修正第6條之一維持現行法條文不予修正5、委員陳明文等18人、委員蔡易宇等19人提案修正第7條維持現行法條文不予修正6、委員陳明文等18人提案修正第8條及第12條均維持現行法條文不予修正"},{"start":2088.326,"end":2111.243,"text":"其增訂第9條之一除第二項目段增列但原住民族基於傳統文化即以非營利自用獵捕野生動物者不在此縣等文字其餘均照行政院提案通過8補充行政院提案第13條之一立法說明第4點如下是基於對原住民族傳統文化之尊重原住民使用自製獵槍自製之彈丸與原住民之民族基於傳統文化範圍內阻缺違法"},{"start":2112.223,"end":2139.949,"text":"9、增訂第20條之二第一項及第二項劇中有關法環上限部分增列原等文字其餘均照行政院提案通過補充立法說明第4點如下4、經以對原住民族傳統文化之尊重原住民字之列腔實使用之主要組成凝結不適用本條規定10、委員蔡毅與等19人提案修正第22條維持現行法條文不予修正11、審查通過這條文條次引述條文之文字及相關法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":2140.909,"end":2161.653,"text":"審查完據擬據審查報告提報院會討論不需交由黨團協商並推起羅昭及委員美領與院會討論時作補充說明三、審查中華民國涉及活動及涉及器材權益促進會未建議修正槍炮彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請院文書一案決議本案不成為一案依立法院職權行使法第67條第二項規定送由程序委員會報請院會審查並通知請院人宣讀完畢"},{"start":2170.213,"end":2172.317,"text":"繼續進行報告事項和討論事項請宣讀報告事項"},{"start":2180.785,"end":2181.846,"text":"選舉期間之行政中立,進行專題報告並被質詢,並邀請司法院列席備詢。"},{"start":2207.001,"end":2233.89,"text":"討論事項一、原住民身份法審查行政院海巡審議原住民身份法修正草案案繼續審查委員鄭天才等16人擬具原住民身份法第5條、第7條及第9條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員劉兆豪等18人擬具原住民身份法第9條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員郭國文等16人委員張宏祿等20人分別擬具原住民身份法第2條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2234.87,"end":2254.603,"text":"繼續審查委員鄭天才等18任擬居原住民身份法第4條及第8條之一條文修正草案案審查委員蔡適應等25任擬居原住民身份法第4條、第7條及第8條條文修正草案案審查委員陳明文等16任擬居原住民身份法第9條條文修正草案案二、原住民工作權保障法"},{"start":2256.392,"end":2275.374,"text":"審查行政院海巡審議原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案審查委員鄭天才等17人、委員武麗華等18人分別擬據原住民族工作權保障法修正草案審查委員陳穎等16人擬據原住民族工作權保障法第11條條文修正草案"},{"start":2275.994,"end":2288.88,"text":"審查委員陳寅等17人凝聚原住民族工作權保障法第4條條文修正草案案審查委員廖國棟等25人、委員孔文吉等22人分別凝聚原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":2291.702,"end":2311.799,"text":"繼續審查委員鄭天才等16任擬具姓名條例部分條文修正草案案繼續審查委員吳立華等20任擬具姓名條例第二條及第4條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員羅美玲等18任擬具姓名條例第9條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員廖國棟等16任擬具姓名條例部分條文修正草案案宣讀完畢首先介紹在場委員及列席官員賴平瑜委員"},{"start":2322.569,"end":2342.579,"text":"內政部林宥昌部長、戶政司陳子和代理司長、民政司檢譽軍檢任視察、合作及人民團體司陳俊廷專門委員"},{"start":2344.605,"end":2373.315,"text":"人事處林靜雯副處長、警政署黃明昭署長、刑事局周佑偉局長、偵查科礦沁泰科長、保安組李全澤組長、人事室許淑珍組長、消防署肖煥章署長、人事室詹東坡主任"},{"start":2375.556,"end":2400.961,"text":"綜合企劃組城市巡警監視察海巡署許靜芝副署長、人事室翁群遠專門委員、情報組朱全成專門委員、巡防組曾建仁科長、人民會一將巴魯爾主任委員"},{"start":2403.325,"end":2429.926,"text":"中核規劃署﹑亞博蘇勇署長社會福利署﹑羅赫祿署長人事是陳榮宏主任國防部作戰及計劃參謀次長是聯合作戰計劃署李昌副副處長"},{"start":2434.474,"end":2458.519,"text":"人事參謀次長是人事勤務處方中泰副處長法務部常次黃謀信檢察司李仲仁主任檢察官司法院民事廳劉素如法官"},{"start":2461.368,"end":2479.156,"text":"行政訴訟及懲戒聽郭任生法官文化部人文及出版司專門委員廖黎尼外交部條約法律司黃元良專門委員領務局莊淑涵科長"},{"start":2486.638,"end":2513.131,"text":"行政院人事總處培考處呂士一副處長、行政院公眾工程委員會企劃處胡培中副處長、補充介紹王美惠委員、陳毓珍委員請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤?沒有"},{"start":2518.161,"end":2545.675,"text":"議事錄確定現在請提案委員說明提案要旨請鄭天才委員提案說明鄭天才鄭天才不在請武力華委員提案說明武力華武力華不在請陳英委員提案說明陳英委員不在請廖國棟委員提案說明廖委員不在請孔文吉委員提案說明"},{"start":2549.381,"end":2570.854,"text":"懇委員不在請陳明文委員提案說明陳委員不在請蔡世應委員提案說明現在請內政部林宥昌部長就專題報告法案一併報告請部長"},{"start":2583.374,"end":2594.136,"text":"第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於"},{"start":2601.499,"end":2626.5,"text":"第一有關於選務維安的工作首先我們撤頒了選舉治安維護計畫並依次來執行該計畫督請各機關單位致重點在強化選務安全的維護包含後續號次的抽籤、證件發表會、選票的一個印製運送、保管以及投開票所等等以確保選舉順利的進行"},{"start":2628.522,"end":2657.528,"text":"第二,警政機關密切聯繫選監監察機關本部警政署督同各警察機關確實與選監委員還有警察機關密切聯繫並對候選人號誌抽籤、公辦電視證件發表會等選務工作的落實來維護安全另外在投開票當日協調選務監察人員及監察機關迅速配合狀況來處置任何的一個執法作為"},{"start":2659.434,"end":2684.356,"text":"第13在選票印製運送保管還有安危部分有關這部分的維護工作已由各警察機關協調選務機關掌握相關的一個進程並指派專責警力提高警覺執勤同時配合選務人員全程管制進出人員以及物品的檢查做好全程蒐證程序、渡房選票外流"},{"start":2685.157,"end":2711.728,"text":"第4有關投開票所的安危部署本次的投開票所計有17795所已由各直轄市、縣市政府、警察局、會同各地方選舉委員會進行期前的會刊必按治安的顧慮程度來區分等級以及部署警衛人力並且也協情、名利還有事故處理編組等權利投入"},{"start":2712.648,"end":2737.998,"text":"同時也會嚴密執行投開票所外30公尺管制區投票秩序以及安全維護第二有關於保障投票權益的部分第一在法令的依據方面公職人員選舉罷免法第17條第一項規定選舉人除另有規定之外應於戶籍地投票所來投票"},{"start":2739.244,"end":2766.593,"text":"同條的第二項也規定投票所的工作人員得在戶籍地或工作地之投票所投票但在工作地之投票所投票者以戶籍地及工作地在同一選舉區並在同一直轄市縣市為縣總統、副總統選舉頒免法第13條第一項及第三項亦有相同的規範對於執勤人員亦有相關規定來保障"},{"start":2768.488,"end":2791.117,"text":"有關於辦理員警工作地的投票部分本部的警政署持續地要求各警察機關規劃投開票日選舉資安維護的勤務必須兼顧員警投票權益的保障並請各警察機關在期前就要協調選務機關來辦理工作地投票的事宜"},{"start":2793.338,"end":2821.611,"text":"我們採取員警機動支援輪替投票的一個方式我們執勤員警如果沒有辦法辦理工作地投票者本部警政署要求各警察機關應全體動員執勤並且以內勤來支援外勤、機動編組、代班等等的一個方式使執勤員警得以分替輪替來執行勤務以及投票以兼顧選舉治安還有投票的權益"},{"start":2822.671,"end":2837.817,"text":"第4有關於消防人員投票權益部分,依據地方制度法的規定,質押市、縣市災害防救等公安安全事項及組織及人員、任免等人事及勤務管理,這是屬於地方政府的權責"},{"start":2839.216,"end":2859.921,"text":"為了便利選舉區內各級機關、學校團體、事業機構、員工前往投票中央選舉委員會巡禮在選舉之前都會函發各縣市政府等機關將投票日以放假來處理由各縣市政府函所屬消防機關單位來配合辦理"},{"start":2861.004,"end":2884.656,"text":"第13有關於選舉期間行政中立的部分本部持續要求所屬同仁保持行政中立本部警政署以定班計劃明定並函請各機關單位嚴禁所屬員警參與任何助選或其他與職務無關之行為其物之中不得談論表達個人政治立場並禁止穿戴"},{"start":2885.68,"end":2905.157,"text":"或標示特定候選人之徽章或服飾避免衍生爭議其次本部消防署亦涵發各直轄市縣市政府消防局重申公務人員行政中立法的規定並約束所屬消防人員遵守相關規定第二貫徹公平一致"},{"start":2906.437,"end":2929.929,"text":"也就是我們貫徹行政中立依法行政的原則各候選人申請案件之核定相關勤務規劃、處理事故及查查各類妨害選舉的案件均秉持公平一致性的原則不應特定黨派或因素而有所差異以上就這個選務的部分以及維安的工作跟委員會來做報告"},{"start":2931.977,"end":2953.214,"text":"其次跟大會來報告有關於原住民身份法修正草案、原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案及新民條例部分條文修正草案共19案在這邊說明本部意見敬請各位委員參考"},{"start":2956.144,"end":2972.621,"text":"首先是原住民身份法修正草案部分委員郭國文等16人及委員張宏祿等20人提案修正原住民身份法第二條增訂平埔原住民一節按憲法法庭111年10月28日憲判自第17號判決"},{"start":2977.586,"end":3002.899,"text":"原住民身份法第二條所稱原住民僅指三地原住民及平地原住民未及其他台灣原住民族自其身份未受國家法律之保障相關機關應於判決宣判日起三年內修正原住民身份法或另訂特別法本部尊重委員的提案"},{"start":3004.278,"end":3028.369,"text":"第2委員鄭天才等16人提案修正原住民身份法第5條有關未成年養子女得由本身父母或養父母申請取得原住民身份一節按民法第1077條的規定養子女與本身父母之權利義務已停止"},{"start":3030.592,"end":3044.068,"text":"提案與民法上的上開規定是有範格又倘養父母與本身父母就養子女取得原住民身份發生意見衝突如何登記恐生爭議"},{"start":3045.92,"end":3070.206,"text":"緣在情與斟酌有關養殖女得以利害關係人申請本身父母戶籍資料一截如符合戶籍法授權定班之申請戶籍藤盆及閱覽戶籍登記資料處理原則第二條第六款之規定養殖女與本身父母有其他確有法律上權利義務得上變更之關係"},{"start":3072.333,"end":3087.907,"text":"為利害關係人養子女自得申請本身父母之戶籍資料為提案養子女得申請本身父母之戶籍資料因涉及本身父母之個資提供將影響取權益原件請在與斟酌"},{"start":3089.648,"end":3115.809,"text":"第3委員鄭天才等16人及委員蔡思應等25人提案修正《原住民身份法》第4條、第7條、第8條及增訂第8條之一有關從未具原住民身份之父或母之姓者可並列登記傳統名字之羅馬拼音養子女從具原住民身份之本生父母或養父母之姓"},{"start":3116.61,"end":3132.357,"text":"以及原住民之子女無需從具原住民身份之父或母之姓或取用傳統姓名可取得原住民身份一截因涉及當事人取得原住民身份之要件本部尊重委員討論的結果"},{"start":3134.858,"end":3161.967,"text":"第二有關原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案首先有關原住民族工作權保障法第4條第5條禁用原住民族員額比例的規定將由現行約僱等五類人員每滿100人應禁用一人原住民族地區三分之一之規定修正為員工總人數之百分之一"},{"start":3162.927,"end":3169.291,"text":"原住民族地區3%令孔恩吉委員等22人提案修正為員工總人數之3%"},{"start":3172.591,"end":3202.006,"text":"原住民族地區30%以及廖國棟委員等25人、武帝華委員等18人與鄭天才委員等17人提案調整禁用比例部分本部及所屬機關恐將不足而禁用為為兼顧原住民工作權之保障同時契合機關彈性用能需求及務實運作之情形本部建議採行行政院版本並將盡力達成所定的比例"},{"start":3203.871,"end":3220.061,"text":"二、又考量本部所屬機關如警察、消防、移民及空勤等業務之特殊性其人員之金融多系以特考來取材如警察及移民特考且為各該機關之能力大中"},{"start":3221.122,"end":3248.987,"text":"為事類報考或錄取人員之身份實非本部得以管控責定如將其列入禁用原住民人數之員工總人數計算的話實務上卻有自案難行之處原建議參照身心障礙者權益保障法第38條第7項及同法實施細則第13條之規定令定排除適用之規定"},{"start":3250.322,"end":3270.452,"text":"另一各機關學校團體駐位警察設置管理辦法的規定駐位警察是由各機關學校團體領選適當人員送請直轄市警察局或縣市警察局審查合格後自費來雇用之並比照駐在單位內部人員相關規定辦理"},{"start":3272.919,"end":3301.55,"text":"監察各單位禁用住位警察之情形目前全國住位警察人數為3,233人其中據原住民身份者有66人禁用原住民的比例為2.04%至於住位警察臨用制度按上開設置管理辦法一致製程體系需由各住在單位依全責自行臨用並負擔各項費用本部列來均予以尊重"},{"start":3302.998,"end":3326.733,"text":"第三有關於姓名條例部分條文的修正草案委員鄭天才等16人及委員廖國棟等16人修正姓名條例第一條、第四條、第八條有關原住民用語修正為原住民族一節為此體力一致本部競表同意有關傳統姓名修正為傳統"},{"start":3330.168,"end":3356.237,"text":"名字一節按姓名條例第3條規定姓名包含括姓氏及名字原住民如無姓氏可僅登記名字為修正為傳統名字將影響其他少數民族之姓名登記嚴建議維持現行規定有關原住民姓名登記依其文化慣俗"},{"start":3357.797,"end":3377.884,"text":"修正為依其傳統民智,並由中央原住民主管機關會商有關機關定之一節,按行政院函請審議之原住民身份法修正草案,以將傳統民智納入規範,坦經修法通過,即可配合登記"},{"start":3379.383,"end":3406.74,"text":"二、委員鄭天才等16人、委員伍立華等20人及委員廖國棟等16人提案修正姓名條例第二條有關原住民姓名單列原住民族文字登記一節依行政院前逾111年2月11日召開跨部會會議之結論對於原住民姓名單列原住民族文字原則予以尊重"},{"start":3408.187,"end":3424.806,"text":"並請原住民族委員會調查原住民族群之意見及研擬政策宣導溝通方案本部將配合政策辦理第三委員羅美玲等18人提案修正新民條例第9條陣列原住民一"},{"start":3426.602,"end":3452.957,"text":"親隨子民誌之文化慣俗改名者無次數限制一節,據尊重及保障原住民傳統文化慣俗本部竟表同意。」以上謝謝林部長現在補充介紹中央選舉委員會主任委員李靖勇主任秘書謝美玲"},{"start":3455.516,"end":3461.48,"text":"綜合規劃處張戴啟署長、選務處蔡京告署長、法政處唐孝鈞專門委員接下來請中選會李敬勇主委請簡單報告謝謝"},{"start":3480.62,"end":3495.974,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生首先感謝主席以及各位委員會配合本會今天早上10點鐘舉行總統副總統候選人姓名號是抽籤而調整開會的時間表示感謝之意"},{"start":3496.795,"end":3513.252,"text":"那今天貴委員會的主題是第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理的情形還有另外執勤軍警消海巡人員投票的權益、文化健康站等工作人員"},{"start":3514.013,"end":3537.761,"text":"在選舉期間之行政中立等等的問題來進行專題報告本會請就選務籌備的情形來跟各位做簡單的說明除了在11月15日第10次的全體委員會議所做的報告之外持續進行的各項選務的工作也簡要的說明如下第一是受理候選人登記的申請"},{"start":3539.502,"end":3553.159,"text":"總統副總統候選人升級的登記申請是在11月20日到24日來辦理完成包括全國不分區、僑居、國外國民的立法委員選舉區域及平地原住民"},{"start":3554.04,"end":3569.64,"text":"三地原住民立法院選舉候選人登記的申請其中在總統、副總統選舉的部分既有民主進步黨推薦的賴清德、蕭美琴臺灣民眾黨推薦的柯文哲、吳欣盈還有中國國民黨推薦的侯友宜"},{"start":3570.301,"end":3584.461,"text":"趙少康等三組來完成登記立法委員區域的部分一共有315人完成登記平地原住民跟山地原住民各有10人來完成登記全國不分區及僑居國外國民立法委員"},{"start":3585.262,"end":3594.569,"text":"有16個政黨一共178名的候選人完成登記在候選人資格審查的部分我們112年12月5日舉行第596次的委員會議審議通過三組六個人總統副總統選舉候選人的資格都符合規定"},{"start":3610.241,"end":3619.609,"text":"我們預計在112年12月15日會召開委員會議來審定公告那候選人姓名"},{"start":3620.987,"end":3640.968,"text":"及政黨號次的這個抽籤有關於總統副總統的部分今年早上10點已經完成抽籤了抽籤的結果抽的第1號的是民眾黨的柯文哲先生跟吳欣盈女士抽的第2號的是民主進步黨的賴清德先生跟蕭美琴女士中國國民黨"},{"start":3643.85,"end":3666.458,"text":"這個侯友宜先生跟趙少康先生是抽的第三號在立法委員選舉的部分我們在112年12月20日要來辦理原住民及立法委員原住民立法委員選舉候選人姓名號誌抽籤及不分區的僑居國外的國民立法委員選舉政黨號誌抽籤這會由本會來辦理"},{"start":3668.078,"end":3679.667,"text":"第4次發布候選人名單的公告本會定於112年12月15日發布第16任總統副總統候選人的名單公告另外在113年的1月2日會發布11屆立法委員選舉候選人的名單公告"},{"start":3685.492,"end":3691.555,"text":"監察競選的活動的部分本會在112年10月13日到27日已經分區舉辦了5場次的選舉監察實務的講習會邀集各直轄市縣市選舉委員會監察小組的召集人、委員、副總幹事、組長以及業務承辦人員參與"},{"start":3705.282,"end":3718.228,"text":"研習的重點最主要是要讓他們了解到112年6月9日修正公布的總統副總統選舉辦明法以及公職人員選舉辦明法的修正重點落實執行監察的工作以發揮選舉監察之效"},{"start":3720.709,"end":3723.052,"text":"繼續辦理總統副總統選舉候選人電視政見發表會本會從112年12月20日起到12月28日子一共要舉辦4場的總統副總統候選人電視政見發表會"},{"start":3736.624,"end":3762.317,"text":"其中總統的候選人是三場副總統的候選人是一場每場次以每一個候選人發表證件的時間是30分鐘分為三輪來發表證件每一輪時間是10分鐘本次總統副總統候選人電視證件發表會我們也會同步在網路直播影音檔案也會放在本會的網站供民眾來收看"},{"start":3763.357,"end":3772.344,"text":"其次辦理立法委員選舉政見發表會的部分本會在113年1月5日舉辦原住民立法委員選舉候選人電視政見發表會113年1月8日要舉辦全國不分區及僑區國外國民立法委員選舉政黨"},{"start":3783.253,"end":3806.978,"text":"電視政見發表會﹚至於區域的立法委員選舉候選人政見發表會則是由各直轄市縣市選舉委員會在113年1月3日到1月12日之間來辦理有關於選務的這個宣導的部分為使民眾能夠了解這一次選舉投票相關的訊息擴大民眾政治參與宣傳包括重點包括"},{"start":3807.918,"end":3816.914,"text":"投票日期、時間、投票時應該注意的事項、國民年滿20歲、有選舉前罷免選罷法修正的重點等等訊息"},{"start":3817.788,"end":3839.077,"text":"並且要提醒國人正確的選舉投票資訊應前往本會網站來查詢以及在通訊軟體中加入訊息查證管道的工具在宣導素材及通路方面透過多元媒體包括電視、廣播、網路、報紙等管道加強選務宣導並強化社群媒體的宣導"},{"start":3843.955,"end":3865.687,"text":"擴大宣導效益此外為加強對新住民的宣導將電視宣導影片字幕翻譯為新住民規劃為國人之六大原屬國的母語又為了加強原住民的宣導我們將宣導海報翻譯為原住民的族語並且提供媒體口播的口播稿"},{"start":3866.327,"end":3892.05,"text":"給原住民族電視台以及廣播電台擴大宣導的效果在籌辦電腦計票作業的部分電腦計票程序投開票所在開票結束後由主任管理員填寫投開票的報告表合張無誤之後派專人送鄉鎮市區的選務作業中心由選務作業中心人員將投開票的報告表"},{"start":3893.011,"end":3907.287,"text":"輸入記憶票的系統迅速完成會計本會原定資訊安全防護計畫各項網路安全以及系統備援措施都是以最高規格的防護本會預定在112年12月"},{"start":3910.806,"end":3925.541,"text":"舉辦55場的教育訓練在112年12月29日、113年1月4日跟1月12日我們一共要辦理三次的電腦計票作為全國的模擬演練提高投開票資訊正確性及時效並且模擬異常狀況進行演練以立即時的應變最後報告結語"},{"start":3932.107,"end":3951.897,"text":"總統副總統選舉及立法委員選舉都是眾所矚目的全國性選舉本會將秉持公正、公平、公開的原則並恪守行政重力的規範確實督導直轄市縣市選舉委員會妥順辦理各項選務準備的工作並順利完成投開票的作業以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":3953.797,"end":3956.819,"text":"主席、各位委員"},{"start":3976.433,"end":3996.007,"text":"內政委員會緊就第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉有關於文化健康站工作人員在選舉期間的行政中立以及行政院跟大院委員所提的原住民身份法修正草案"},{"start":3996.874,"end":4009.016,"text":"原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案還有就是大宴委員所提的信民條例部分條文修正草案簡要說明如下"},{"start":4010.849,"end":4027.53,"text":"關於原民會補助設置的各縣市的503個文化健康站我們是以健康照顧和文化傳承為目標來照顧全國的原住民原鄉跟都會地區的長者"},{"start":4028.43,"end":4042.871,"text":"那麼為了確保行政中立嚴明慧已經透過先導跟韓文各縣市政府以及文化健康站來遵守相關的法令的規範並堅守行政中立的原則"},{"start":4044.56,"end":4071.049,"text":"有關原住民族身份法修正草案我們是據司法院憲法法庭111年度憲判第4號的判決一直所示原住民身份的取得除了血緣關係之外應該還是要具備客觀的認同表徵因此針對原住民跟原住民"},{"start":4072.149,"end":4094.524,"text":"原住民與非原住民所生子女以及收養關係純系的養子女我們都採取相同的身份認定標準同時也增加自願放棄原住民身份的補救機制來具體保障個人取得身份的認同權跟平等權"},{"start":4096.543,"end":4125.596,"text":"關於新民條例修正草案鄭天才委員、吳立華委員、羅梅林委員、廖國東委員等所提的修正草案本會見表尊重關於廖國東委員所提的第二條修正條文建議來參佐原住民族語言發展法的規定調整為台灣原住民族傳統名字以原住民族文字登記者不再此限"},{"start":4127.154,"end":4151.979,"text":"至於有關原住民族工作權保障法的部分為了落實蔡英文總統有關原住民的政策主張以及回應司法院釋字第810號解釋的意旨來修正公佈門用原住民族擴大植物類型來提高禁用比例如果"},{"start":4153.921,"end":4172.502,"text":"這個院版的修正草案可以獲得答應的支持的話,一估可以增加原住民13796個工作機會,而且有助提供穩定的就業機會跟提高工作收入"},{"start":4173.243,"end":4183.957,"text":"那另外關於得標廠商因繳納代金金額超過政府採購法標金金額的這個部分的比例我們會另訂這個減輕機制來解決實務上的這個爭議最後"},{"start":4189.956,"end":4213.486,"text":"大院委員所提的各項修正條文涉及到原住民族身份認定要件以及實務的運作原住民族就業遣役原民會已經審慎審酌為了落實憲法保障原住民的身份認同、錢跟工作的遣役等福祉我們建議請"},{"start":4215.007,"end":4223.032,"text":"各位委員可以支持行政院提案的版本以上報告進行委員指教來謝謝其他各部會的報告都請自行參閱並刊登公報現在進行詢答委員質詢前原理做幾點宣告本會委員與"},{"start":4241.863,"end":4267.019,"text":"原民委員發言時間6分鐘、必要時得延長2分鐘、非本會委員發言時間5分鐘、上午10點30分、截止發言登記因為今天法案處理本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有現在請登記第一位賴品瑜委員發言"},{"start":4275.204,"end":4280.626,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩主席有請內政部林部長林部長請部長好選戰目前到1月13號大概剩下30幾天那大家都在做最後的衝刺同時間我想這個我們相關的部會特別是內政部這邊應該要上緊發條為選舉該做的準備也不少啦第一個就是我想問部長"},{"start":4302.614,"end":4320.184,"text":"因為其實這陣子不只是這幾天這陣子都會陸續看到這個各地的警方偵辦選舉賭盤的新聞那從北從基樓新北到屏東其實都有這個偵破主頭的消息那在這邊我要先稱讚這個警政署"},{"start":4321.084,"end":4333.835,"text":"有這個去偵查有這個成果啦但我想很多這個選舉的手法都是環環相扣的比如說地下賭盤很多人可能會拿這個地下賭盤來閒聊當作類似一種民調來參考"},{"start":4338.218,"end":4352.577,"text":"所以就有一種可能說也許會發生這種狀況是故意呢去用這個開讓幾萬票來暗示縮小差距或是說擴大差距來誤導民眾這也是一個非常需要注意的趨勢那另外回到選舉啦"},{"start":4353.658,"end":4378.495,"text":"我想這個各界還是高度關注中國議題有沒有中國的黑手伸進來介入台灣的選舉我想這個答案是肯定的只是說到底是介入的多深介入的樣態到底是什麼樣子那事實上先前我們也可以看到這個在APEC的會議中拜登也這個罕見的向習近平明確的去表達不希望中國干涉台灣的選舉連美國這個都有在掌握台灣的動向了那台灣自己呢"},{"start":4383.978,"end":4410.399,"text":"我可以說其實我們有看到就是說有新聞最近還蠻多新聞都有提到說包含台北還有本席所在的新北還有中部的彰化其實都有出現這個里長到中國旅遊統戰團的現象那如果今天你說是單純的旅遊就算了但為什麼都是里長為什麼可以用這個比行情低廉非常多極度低廉的費用甚至是只要出機票錢去玩"},{"start":4411,"end":4413.966,"text":"這些都是必須要延伸去了解的問題點我想請問部長內政部這邊對於這個情形掌握到什麼樣的程度了"},{"start":4420.269,"end":4438.561,"text":"非常謝謝我想有關於這個賭盤的部分這個向來不是新鮮事每一次選舉到的時候就特定或者是有意圖的人士意圖用這個賭盤來影響大選我們在這一次的一個"},{"start":4444.585,"end":4469.072,"text":"整個的一個二制賭盤的部分我們特別是以六合彩的一個主頭來作為我們相關的一個重點的一個對象因為歷來都是由這個六合彩的主頭經營還有這個通訊的一個網路下注的比例是最高的所以我們本署警政署已經要求各警察機關結合青圓3.0的工作計畫"},{"start":4472.793,"end":4492.737,"text":"來進行相關通報的部件,主動發掘在轄內的簽署站有沒有相關情形所以也再次強調呼籲不要以身來釋法我們目前9月20日到9月26日我們已經執行第一波的全國同步掃蕩賭博的專案"},{"start":4495.958,"end":4510.988,"text":"現在此時此刻我們正在進行的是第二波的一個專案掃蕩那在前次第一波的專案掃蕩的部分期間呢我們掌握具體的一個請職有149件那並且已經移送了77件98人"},{"start":4513.129,"end":4537.697,"text":"那其實中國借選也從來不是新聞只不過它借選的一個方式變得越來越隱晦而且越多樣那過去這個用賭盤來借選或者是說中國的一個資金來借選那這個本來就是我們加強的一個重點那第二剛剛委員特別提到有這個很多的所謂的村里長"},{"start":4538.597,"end":4558.826,"text":"被中國招待去進行相關的一個旅遊相關的一個情資我們目前掌握收報的這樣的一個情資大概有51件或者是51團556人目前已經有查獲的一個案件正在偵辦當中"},{"start":4560.933,"end":4587.945,"text":"那當然現在因為這個竊選的方式很多那它不一定是直接竊選它也許用假訊息或者是錯假訊息來擾亂或者是干擾大選那造成民眾對政府的一個誤解或者是負面的一個情緒我想這個都是現在我們特別注意的狀況是 因為其實這兩個問題雖然這個內容不一樣但本質上都是在詢問您這個影響竊選的狀況"},{"start":4590.046,"end":4614.324,"text":"因為我想落地接待這件事情就像你講的這不是新鮮事不是第一次聽到那甚至說不要說里長啦過去就有很多這個學生大學生在寒暑假被中國的大學招待過去旅遊啊參觀而且也都是非常低廉的費用甚至是不用費用然後去體驗這個住好吃好的旅遊甚至本席以前在大學的時候也有被詢問過當然是沒有去啦但也被詢問過"},{"start":4615.625,"end":4638.6,"text":"當然大家也都知道天下沒有白吃的午餐哪有平白無故被招待這麼好的事情不過回到這個村里長的招待啦會找上里長當然主要是兩個原因嘛第一個就是說村里長本身他的性質他不是說他不是狹義的公務員他領的是事務補助費可能因此這個到中國入境不一定要事先申報啦"},{"start":4639.44,"end":4663.503,"text":"那第二就是村里長就是最基層的民政單位那其實就像剛才部長自己提到了啦他們大部分都跟選民往來密切所以中國最能夠藉由村里長來達到傳遞假訊息並且籠絡選民的任務那其實像我剛提到最近很多新聞也都有提到說這一次彰化縣有特別集中跟頻繁的趨勢啦那"},{"start":4664.904,"end":4683.911,"text":"報導裡也有說到中國重慶市台辦從這個三個月分成三個梯次招待彰化縣300多位喔非常多300多位村里長到當地旅遊那為什麼挑上彰化有一說是說比起這個一些有明顯政治傾向的地區中部可能在政黨傾向上比較搖擺啦"},{"start":4685.612,"end":4699.141,"text":"所以這個其實也是中國看上去借選的考量所以這件事情選戰只剩下30幾天了這件事情內政部真的是要積極的徹查啦去瞭解就是說各縣市的村里長有沒有異常被招待附中旅遊的狀況那剛才你也有說在查嘛"},{"start":4700.922,"end":4718.293,"text":"那我這邊要講要督促就是說如果有這種明顯的對價不相等的狀況那該送檢調偵辦的就要立刻去送辦千萬不要去輕忽啦那再來是不是我也想問黃署長這邊啦因為除了這個賭博跟被招待之外買票啊、會選這種"},{"start":4720.094,"end":4741.199,"text":"不正當的行為向來在選舉我們也都要嚴肅看待可是其實之前我也有跟警政署討論過隨著時代的進步買票賄選已經不是只有這種實體的物品給現金這種行為其實我們常常在說要查金流看犯罪嫌疑人有沒有異常的款項進出賬戶再去徹查他的來源作為犯罪的證據"},{"start":4742.199,"end":4765.308,"text":"那如果以現在最新的科技發展來說例如透過虛擬的NFT或者是說虛擬貨幣作為媒介這些線上的隱秘的難以追蹤的方式請問署長這邊該如何處理是就虛擬貨幣這些幣流的一個追查警政署是訂定一個科真人才的一個教育訓練計畫"},{"start":4766.809,"end":4779.934,"text":"那我們預計會有一年要培訓500位對避留的一個追查追蹤的方式來進行教育訓練那這個也包含了所有的專家來收購還包括金黃會的一個專業人員來協助我們訓練這些同仁"},{"start":4784.229,"end":4803.636,"text":"了解對因為我想這個虛擬貨幣他的或許啦他的交易過程是隱秘加密的但是最後他事實上還是要把這個貨幣去兌現成各國的這個在地貨幣嗎所以如何去透過比對領取的帳戶的人別資料那進而去研判是不是有異常會選的可能性那"},{"start":4804.376,"end":4833.298,"text":"可能找得到樁腳但是源頭這個部分其實也是要加強那我剛才這個署長講的這個計畫我也有看到啦那我想請問一下因為你說現在有在訓練嗎那這些人有辦法在這次選舉就投入偵辦的實務嗎其實我們的科證人才一直都在訓練早幾年前已經都在訓練那這500位是擴大擴大他的一個訓練所以這個之前已經訓練過就可以投入到這一次的一個選戰相關的必有的一個追查"},{"start":4833.752,"end":4862.951,"text":"了解因為上週其實在這個財政委員會也有委員有問到說防範虛擬貨幣借選的議題那其實當時我看到說現場就有提出提案要求金管會要研議大額通報的標準那這部分也是要請有請許志祺加快腳步啦訓練腳步否則這個科技日新月異那要去這個進入感上應用在偵辦的實務上如果需要跨單位啦比方說我剛提到的金管會嘛法務部合作溝通的其實也應該要儘速處理"},{"start":4864.353,"end":4874.461,"text":"可以嗎?那這個部分就是要再麻煩內政部還有警政署這邊多多擔待了OK,謝謝部長,謝謝署長,謝謝主席,謝謝好,請回座,謝謝賴委員接下來請陳益臻委員質詢請我們主委,中選會李主委請"},{"start":4895.202,"end":4916.342,"text":"委員好主委早今天這個總統副總統號次已經抽定是的那之前在沸沸揚揚討論這個總統副總統候選人資格審定的時候就是想請教你們那時候說審定合格嘛三組候選人都審定合格是的那請問三組候選人你們的這個審定呢你們的審查是進行這個形式上的審查還是實質上的審查"},{"start":4917.743,"end":4931.628,"text":"是實質的審查當初在討論這些這個有關什麼恢復國籍啊什麼雙重國籍啊是不是或者是規劃或回復這個部分的時候這個你們都有相關的資料吧我們有向內政部來函查內政部也非常清楚的告訴我們六組的候選人三組候選人六個"},{"start":4942.632,"end":4963.62,"text":"候選人裡面沒有任何一個有回復國籍或者是所以你們是按照內政部的公文是吧那當然因為他是主任他有沒有檢附相關的施政沒有嘛就只有公文嘛他告訴我們結果所以你們是按照內政部的公文告訴大眾說這個都符合資格所以是內政部告訴你們這是非常明顯而且是確定是內政部說那我們請內政部"},{"start":4968.618,"end":4993.779,"text":"所以有沒有人自始就有中華民國國籍或者原來是美國籍或是規劃或是回復的這部分內政部有做實質的審查嗎我想就內政部的部分我們有進行相關的一個查證有實質查證就對了包括過去對我們會查他的戶籍的一個資料那戶籍啦 國籍的部分呢也一樣我們會查戶籍都有做詳查好那所以你們手上有相關的這個資料嗎是的很詳細的資料那這個部分是不是應該公開提示給這個社會大眾知道"},{"start":4997.902,"end":5016.033,"text":"委員會想跟你報告一下第一個因為不管是這個蕭女士的父親或者是他個人他從來都沒有上司國籍的一個資料所以他自始至終就是中華民國國籍對嘛那應該會有相關那每個人不管從戶政啊或是國籍或者他有父親有國籍的相關都有相關事證嘛"},{"start":5017.074,"end":5041.223,"text":"他就是他就是他就是國籍啊他並沒有任何他並沒有任何上司或者回覆的這個資料那你至少會有他的相關的資料公告給大眾知道嘛我原理所謂相關資料指的是比如說我們看到的因為蕭美琴這個現在副總統候選人他當初在自己在媒體上說他只有美國籍啊他說過他自己只有美國籍啊"},{"start":5042.123,"end":5057.098,"text":"不過那個是我們是必須他自己說的這個我們說的我們依法對所以依法對那他自己這樣說的話你們那他到底原來的中華民國國籍是因為他放棄美國籍後他就回復了這個中華民國國籍呢還是什麼情形我想"},{"start":5058.98,"end":5077.658,"text":"你們既然查證過了你們是怎麼樣認定你們就應該把這個過程公諸我是說公諸給大眾知道這個減少社會的這個對立啦大家都清楚嘛那委員會跟你報告這非常簡單因為他從來沒有喪失所以當然他也沒有回復所以你意思是他面對媒體他面對媒體訪問的時候所以你的意思是他面對媒體訪問他是說謊的"},{"start":5081.622,"end":5107.804,"text":"不是不是所以他誤會了對他有可能是誤會所以你說這個我們這個副總候選人他的認知能力有問題沒有我不能這樣子講對自己的國籍都沒有辦法認知清楚我想並不能這樣子對年輕的時候都沒有辦法認知自己是美國籍還是中華民國籍我想非常清楚只要是中華民國的國籍一出生的時候他就具有他認為他自己是只有美國籍你們卻幫他認定說他有中華民國國籍那我現在說他的認知錯誤你就說不是"},{"start":5108.484,"end":5129.414,"text":"那委員我們依法我們依法他就是原住民國所以我們這樣爭辯沒什麼爭辯的話事實上都會陷入各說各話所以我希望你們就把你們查到的事證你們怎麼認定的你們或是你們根本我剛才已經講得很清楚你們沒有做任何查證反正你們就認為說他爸爸原來就是中華民國不是不是他爸爸原來就是中華民國也有相關事證吧你把它公告出來那委員"},{"start":5132.716,"end":5143.741,"text":"他從來沒有申請上司那我請問你我說我有中華民國我說我沒有中華民國國籍那你們來認定的時候你們就說你本來就有你說有就有嗎一定有相關事證委員你這樣子邏輯上面有一些"},{"start":5149.383,"end":5163.532,"text":"呃……可能有一些……我都這樣沒錯因為來來我先請問你蕭美琴自己說自己只有美國籍你們卻說她從來就有中華民國國籍所以我說那表示她當初在說謊的呃她在受訪的時候說錯嘛有可能她說錯了齁我們也不要說她說謊她可能說錯嘛對不對"},{"start":5165.954,"end":5181.083,"text":"有可能是說錯啦對不對那部分我想我們是就行政機關我們國際法的我們國際法的相關的規定他要麼就說謊要麼他自己認知錯誤覺得自己只有沒國籍吧委員我覺得這樣子道歉一點啦對自己的國籍這麼年輕的時候都會認知錯誤這個"},{"start":5185.005,"end":5205.405,"text":"所以我說我們這樣繼續爭辯實際上意義小也會增加衝突那現在會出現了嘛我說是不是你們把這些東西弄清楚公諸大眾嘛他附近也要有中華民國國籍比如說我舉例比如他父親一定有出國嘛他後來有去美國嘛一定有中華民國護照啊什麼這類的東西啊他什麼時候取得什麼時間點寫出來給社會大眾知道"},{"start":5207.867,"end":5233.12,"text":"以恃眾疑、把這個社會減少這個寵物。」你們不提供就算了反正就是今天就是內政部說了算啦反正也不用提供不是我們依國籍法相關的規定去進行查證查證的結果他就是有中華民國因為他從來沒有上司他也沒有申請上司他有取得中華民國國籍嗎他當然有啊他有什麼時候取得啊為什麼自己認為沒有咧"},{"start":5234.634,"end":5244.377,"text":"他自己會說沒有,我也不知道為什麼那時候我不曉得他的心目中只有美國這兩個國家委員這樣子說,我想你個人的意見尊重我說我們不用爭執,你不公告也就算了"},{"start":5252.56,"end":5278.885,"text":"沒有什麼公佈公告的問題我們在上個禮拜的新聞稿裡面已經講了一遍都是用新聞稿嘛這就像蔡總統說他有有那個什麼論文什麼都是用新聞稿東西公佈出來嘛以示眾議就好了沒關係齁我去問下一題啊對不起啊來因為時間有限齁那個來你們也不公告啊就反而憑一紙公以後做什麼事情只要你們的公文就可以了委員這個不能這樣子講我們依國習法我們依法行政他沒有任何回覆"},{"start":5279.985,"end":5308.176,"text":"他沒有申請上司他就是中華民國籍啊這麼簡單就是這樣子啊那我接受你的說法就是說蕭美琴在以前在接受媒體訪問的時候她要麼認知錯誤要麼她說謊就兩個吧還是她還是媒體報道錯誤就尊重委員你個人意見尊重你個人意見只有兩個可能啦兩個可能之一啦好來我想請問喔這個我們的我們上次不是上次修這個總統副總統選舉罷免法吧這個一起修的嘛記得吧在我們這裡委員會有修這個法"},{"start":5309.636,"end":5317.441,"text":"我想請問這個總統副總統選舉報言法有沒有規定裡面有沒有規定有兩個政黨可以聯合推薦總統副總統誰會回答就是選舉報言法第22條第1項有沒有規定可以聯合推薦兩個以上的政黨答案在這裡哪一位回答"},{"start":5334.022,"end":5345.668,"text":"這是哪一個單位?還是中選會要這樣回答?當然這個法令是內政部管的還是中選會要幫忙回答?報告委員,依照總統選舉、副總統選舉罷免法規定是得有兩個以上政黨共同推薦"},{"start":5346.974,"end":5350.297,"text":"那時候討論要聯合推薦總統、副總統這個有什麼問題?為什麼會被告什麼縮延載湯?"},{"start":5368.82,"end":5390.698,"text":"那請問以後兩個政黨都會聯合推薦?兩個政黨在討論說到底怎麼樣聯合推薦?這個有什麼問題?這個就尊重提告的人他的一個主張跟訴求所以說你認為應該沒有這樣的問題了齁?那個提告的人...提告的人他當然...任何人都可以提...任何人都可以提嘛你認為呢?你對這個法律的解釋呢?你覺得可不可以聯合推薦?我想我們不方便在這邊談論這個候選人他現在已經...我要討論這個法律現在...現在已經..."},{"start":5395.181,"end":5422.775,"text":"現在已經進入到那個以後還是有可能今天已經抽選了我們也不是針對這個案子我們只是說以後有可能會發生嗎這個我們可能要看他的可不可以聯合推薦嗎這個我們可能要看他過程裡面看他過程裡面的可不可以在一起討論說聯合推薦這件事情嗎但是他不只是討論這個所謂聯合推薦他也許還有其他的這些談論的事情嘛所以這要看他的具體的事證跟提告人他的訴求OK"},{"start":5424.196,"end":5452.448,"text":"所以說你覺得這個被告發這件事情你如果就你的這個法律判斷你覺得這個告發這個施政會成立嗎沒有我不是法官我沒有辦法你不要吧反正你任何人都有提告權我也接受不過濫用司法資源或只是為了創造一些這當然是這一次當然是過去以後還是有可能發生我們既然總統副總統選舉辦法一定有這一條可以政黨聯合推薦當然各個主要政黨的主要的領袖人物坐在一起討論如何聯合推薦也不應該是一件犯法的事情對吧"},{"start":5457.95,"end":5470.523,"text":"我剛剛講過當然他依兩個政黨合作的一個程序去進行在法裡面是允許的但他有沒有其他的事情就不曉得所以要尊重提告人提告的那個內容接下來請張宏祿委員質詢"},{"start":5488.064,"end":5490.246,"text":"我先請內政部林部長請部長部長我們今天我們今天題目就是"},{"start":5503.376,"end":5525.628,"text":"警察不在即投票我想請問一下其實現在我們雖然沒有不在即投票但我們的工作人員都有移轉投票的制度了嘛對不對如果我警察或是我選務人員我在我今天我要去擔任選務人員的話我就是可以在我的工作地點投票了吧"},{"start":5526.468,"end":5533.623,"text":"對不對直轄市或者縣市都可以了嘛所以我們的警察應該也都是有這樣的嘛"},{"start":5534.737,"end":5560.539,"text":"我們會盡可能的因為當天因為選舉有選務的這個勤務不過這個已經行之多年我們在選前都會請各警察機關去排定輪休或者是讓我們的內勤的同仁這個來做這個相關的一個支援那另外也就是希望就是說讓員警能夠在一方面完成勤務那二方面也可以輪流去做投票"},{"start":5562.402,"end":5585.472,"text":"現在其實就有這個制度了啦對不對那只是一直以來這陣其實因為民主選舉已經有一段蠻長的時間現在都越來越順暢我們會盡可能的讓同仁能夠回去投票現在其實制度是有了啦只是說因為停務因為輪休的問題可能沒有辦法百分之百而已啦對不對那我覺得其實啊"},{"start":5589.093,"end":5603.458,"text":"警察的權益他有他的投票權我覺得當然我們要保障我覺得就是說其實我們如果就是把它做到再精進一點能夠那個比例越高我覺得是會比較好啦 對不對"},{"start":5605.479,"end":5629.732,"text":"是啦齁是沒錯那其實我們就是朝這個方向去努力就我覺得盡量尤其是讓基層的員警啦齁他可以比較有比較多的機會啦齁這個他能夠去投票我覺得我們朝這個方向應該來努力啦齁好好謝謝喔齁好謝謝林部長那我來請這個中選會那個李主委"},{"start":5639.362,"end":5655.056,"text":"主委我們選務人員的修正公務人員比例從二分之一調為三分之一在今年的選務人員的招募在明年投票我們有沒有比較順利"},{"start":5657.245,"end":5668.918,"text":"謝謝貴院的修法的幫忙自從公務人員的比例從二分之一調降為三分之一那今年的招募的工作是進行的比以往都要順利的多"},{"start":5669.662,"end":5690.461,"text":"都沒有問題啦在我們原來規劃是10月30號以前要完全招募完畢其實各地選委會都超前而且啦我們這一次的這個選務人員的工作費其實也有調高啦是的應該也是增加了不少誘因啦謝謝大家"},{"start":5692.583,"end":5707.852,"text":"不過這邊有一個就是要跟主委就是說我在基層上我聽到的就是說我們投開票所其實有分大小有的啦我舉例就好了"},{"start":5709.053,"end":5730.744,"text":"我們新北時定的豐田里才80幾個人投票人數我們板橋有一個投開票所、社後就5000多人大家都想要去比較小的工作輕鬆同樣的一天這樣子工作輕鬆"},{"start":5732.285,"end":5758.061,"text":"那有沒有我們未來這一個我們這個投開票所這個工作的費用其實會特別的比如說到五、六千人以上的這一種我們是不是要有特別的獎勵不一定是錢可能你的技工你的什麼這個我們有沒有這個方向來思考這樣子才不會說很"},{"start":5759.742,"end":5771.847,"text":"任務繁重的人越多的其實我認為是更需要有經驗的人去嘛那我們如何讓有更有經驗的願意去人口數比較多的地方來做這個選務人員"},{"start":5774.37,"end":5789.99,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,其實我們要感謝所有全國的選務工作人員,大家都是要來奉獻、服務,所以沒什麼藉口就對了當然這個勞役的問題會因為投開票所規模的大小而有所不同"},{"start":5791.111,"end":5807.433,"text":"至於會不會根據這個勞役不同的情況來做工作費的調整我想我們的這個工作資給工作費的資給這個辦法最近剛剛行政院支持修正通過了我們會在事辦一段時間之後再來進行檢討"},{"start":5809.855,"end":5823.138,"text":"我的意思不是只有增加工作費啦我們公務人員有續獎有什麼的啊那他的勞務這個沒有問題我說的是那個我剛才講不是你如果單純是調高那可能也不一定馬上可以做得到非議的問題而有不同的獎程的標準這是我們想應該是要這樣子做"},{"start":5834.8,"end":5836.221,"text":"接下來請王美惠委員質詢"},{"start":5868.243,"end":5871.424,"text":"主席我們請選舉那個李主委李主委主委早主委李我們每年1月13日選舉選33天是在這裏面的時候本市是覺得說最近你們在12月7日有開一個記者會"},{"start":5895.255,"end":5907.682,"text":"說外來的介入、選舉、還是兜版的問題是不是說也有很多在主持裡面用作很多單位的叫人去選黨人在選黨黨中你們開記者會說你們去找什麼什麼跟看這個消息是真的還假的"},{"start":5920.009,"end":5925.894,"text":"主委,如果像阿公阿嬤都在收音機跟手機沒在用,如果這個消息傳出來時跟土民大會一傳一傳,你覺得這要用什麼去選就更好,來主委你講一下"},{"start":5941.901,"end":5958.812,"text":"有關於錯假訊息的防治這個也是我們今年選務非常重要的一點那錯假訊息的防治當然我們在第一時間掌握了訊息沒有啦,主委,我們是要跟你請教的是我們選舉會的設備在那天的記者會你也說得很清楚的可能沒有記者會啦,可能是我們的新聞局的那種,就是澄清的新聞局"},{"start":5967.097,"end":5974.38,"text":"對阿,跟你們的新聞局,你們就是要跟人家說怎樣去了解,去讓人了解說,跟這個訊息是真的還假,跟我現在是要跟你請教說,你們要怎樣用這個機會給你選擇啦,"},{"start":5985.094,"end":6010.463,"text":"來 像你這樣要怎麼說第一個當然是我們民眾的這個嗜讀的能力應該要提升啦齁但是這可能不是第一期間內有辦法做到的這個訊息第一期間沒辦法做到 全33間都要甩掉了但是這個訊息的真假其實還是有一些事實查核的機構他們所提供的這個資料都可以作為參考的"},{"start":6012.191,"end":6019.655,"text":"因為主委是因為本席看到你們有發展出來的時候我覺得就是傷害台灣的民主、選舉、歐美共現在本席就是要跟你說跟你們說這個"},{"start":6030.78,"end":6034.083,"text":"這件事沒有意義啦我第一時間一定要說明即時的這個說明那透過不同的媒體的管道把它說出去讓大家知道主委剛才那天而已啦再來都沒人知道啦"},{"start":6051.216,"end":6059.763,"text":"我們也可以收音機也可以說什麼都可以很多選擇的方法多元的管道多元的管道因為我現在是覺得說要有好的領袖要讓人留下來因為留下來的時候這個消息會越來越恐怖如果沒有"},{"start":6072.093,"end":6076.256,"text":"一直說、說、說阿伯有東西去啦其實也不只是我們選委會在做這個挫甲訊息的澄清政府還有部門都有在處理這件事"},{"start":6083.986,"end":6098.141,"text":"對啦,我就是說你因為他們有12個設備,你們做這個動作,我是要...我們也是職責所在,一定要做的。對啦,跟我說應該可以再做就好了。好,我再介紹,我再介紹。來,請保證法務部,來。林部長,還有黃次長。"},{"start":6108.776,"end":6115.36,"text":"來 部長市長在這裡面大家好我們想跟你談到的就是說應該是最近的選舉你們有覺得有壓力嗎在1月30日我們有發佈一個說因為你們如果請我介入選舉的位或是多半"},{"start":6136.188,"end":6139.389,"text":"的問題選舉期間總統一千萬有這個問題嗎?有這個高利貸稅?對,我們有這個獎勵的一個獎金的措施有啦齁?因為本席怎麼會跟你講這個呢?因為我們要多宣導,因為有聽說,我們這裡有多忙,這裡有招待要去大陸出頭,大家講講實在的啦"},{"start":6164.279,"end":6178.122,"text":"每個里長都很辛苦的啦,那是少之又少的里長才會放交代去出頭啦,講實在里長他講的也不對,我不是白白交代捏,我還要開辦理考慮捏,所以部長那個我們的單位要去找好,因為"},{"start":6187.524,"end":6192.568,"text":"事由：立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":6211.781,"end":6215.403,"text":"這次會任期本來4萬5,如果調整到5萬,因為我們知道立法院大家都辛苦嘛,只是說辛苦的時候,有一半的願意交代要去做"},{"start":6230.251,"end":6244.494,"text":"思想的問題裡面這樣補充你認為要怎麼做?因為真的有人交代去喔來補充你講一下這種思想改造這是非常問題很大我們一定是經過相關的一個搜報它有確定的一些事實我們會做相關的一個處理"},{"start":6259.534,"end":6264.298,"text":"因為部長您的單位說實在最近有多少出去嘛跟您查嘛,您能誰知道有多少嘛,出入有多少人嘛,一到十到多少嘛,住在什麼嘛,您如果說啊,我們又廟會,大家交代去住廟的那裡,這我們沒話說"},{"start":6282.371,"end":6287.435,"text":"這期斷好又吃好這思維改造真的我們要有作為因為我覺得說"},{"start":6292.079,"end":6306.873,"text":"要加強,不加強就說,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代"},{"start":6314.099,"end":6334.769,"text":"在這裏你也知道我來自嘉義市嘛你也是北部縣嘛一家人因為嘉義最特別的就是有一個阿里山嘉義阿里山的橋下就是本社所在的所在就是嘉義市現在很多我們的目睹嘉義市有不怕的會出"},{"start":6339.394,"end":6347.096,"text":"很多六千多棟在這裏面長久以來都沒有發動起到使用執照本事要跟你探討的就是說在嘉義市一個文創園區裏面也有很多棟的到現在立法院的建物裏面也有很多應该你們內政的"},{"start":6364.562,"end":6368.143,"text":"執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等"},{"start":6388.368,"end":6398.955,"text":"要多聯繫,跟這一次市政府要多聯繫一下,跟部長,你覺得自己在這件事,你要如何,有覺得要怎麼去幫助嗎?來,部長,來。"},{"start":6407.049,"end":6417.397,"text":"議員你剛才說的那一棟是歷史建物還是一般的木造的房子?這個不太一樣我現在就是說有歷史的建物有歷史的建物的法條"},{"start":6426.044,"end":6441.221,"text":"這步我們站著的、會站著的現在到不成為止就是無法去突破像我們文創園區、嘉義市一個這麼大的所在的文創園區已經很多年、很多年到現在它還無法站著使用這間"},{"start":6448.06,"end":6459.864,"text":"文化園區一個人在一個園區裡面應該有相關的價位才對你剛才說的沒辦法輸到修容這是樹林的樹樹林的樹就是未來消防的他沒有修容這條樹他也不知道要怎麼消防如果他抓到樹林去修容是沒有這個問題他是以前到現在都沒有"},{"start":6475.969,"end":6476.712,"text":"申請檢抹的就是人家說的違章建築的"},{"start":6481.906,"end":6494.493,"text":"但違章建築意識是否有保存的這個階段?這可能要來...喔!沒錯!很有階段的!喔!很有階段!對!所以說我希望沒錯!跟營建署、跟嘉義市市政府,喔!這不算是我們的費用,這是要怎樣?如果對應的問題,到底要怎麼做?"},{"start":6508.021,"end":6519.493,"text":"是 委員是不是你剛才說到這個文化園區在個案的部分是不是在農會後我請國土管理署來幫你推領我認為我們不是說文創園區裡面"},{"start":6524.238,"end":6541.505,"text":"我們這個六千多棟的木造的所在我們也要去關心所以說本身我們也能夠自立能夠讓自己是這個木造的有一個保障我們要好好協助因為木造也有很多不一樣的類型我們要研究看看因為我們以前都是"},{"start":6549.608,"end":6559.477,"text":"提供的、提供的判斷就是無綱我們現在是國家的募集,要如何保準我們來研究一下以上,謝謝好,謝謝現在叫做國土管理署,不是營建署,好,來,繼續來,陳以信委員請質詢"},{"start":6581.589,"end":6583.916,"text":"謝謝昭偉是不是請中選會李主委備詢請李主委"},{"start":6595.123,"end":6614.936,"text":"主委早我想要針對台南市現在的立法委員選舉第5選區現在候選人是王家珍那他因為現在有一個之前的助理費的案件所以在緩刑當中我現在要問他現在針對他立法委員登記的參選資格中選會現在的認定是什麼"},{"start":6619.649,"end":6638.567,"text":"跟委員做個說明有關於立法委員候選人資格的認定的問題我們會在這個月15號的委員會議來進行你對他這個案子有沒有了解這個案子我是看媒體報導有一些了解你不知道他這個案子現在可能有爭議你們有可能會"},{"start":6640.328,"end":6659.116,"text":"你們有可能會不受理他的登記對不對最後的結果必須要是15號的委員會我當然知道我們現在就是要來討論這個事情為什麼因為我們已經預先看到這個事情大家討論的重點可能在公職人員選罷法第26條第9款的"},{"start":6661.237,"end":6662.037,"text":"法院判決有期徒刑以上的刑確定了"},{"start":6678.223,"end":6703.489,"text":"還沒有執行或者執行還沒有完或者是在緩刑中或者是行刑權施加消滅等等這種種的狀況也都是消極資格的情況我知道這個修法這個修法當然還有很多的疑義我們不是現在討論的重點我現在要問的就是說這個修法是在5月的時候進行是"},{"start":6703.789,"end":6718.676,"text":"那王家珍他那個時候案件的判決是在2月所以他那個時候申請要緩刑時間點是2月他怎麼會知道3個月之後他的緩刑的申請會變成他不能夠參選的理由呢"},{"start":6720.439,"end":6734.41,"text":"我們有關於候選人資格的認定的時間點就是在登記截止的時間登記截止的時候也就是24號到24號不是我是說2月的時候王家珍他要選擇"},{"start":6736.911,"end":6762.362,"text":"這個緩刑的時候他怎麼會知道他如果選擇緩刑他三個月之後會因為修法然後他沒有辦法取得這個候選人的資格呢?如果他當時二月之後選擇一刻罰金就沒這回事啊他當時信賴緩刑並不會有其他的後遺症這個信賴為什麼到三個月之後不見了然後現在中選會要對他來可能要以這個理由來剝奪他的參選資格勒?"},{"start":6763.903,"end":6776.07,"text":"我想這個緩刑或者是一顆罰金這是法院的判決來做決定他就是判他可以一顆罰金也可以緩刑啊倒不一定是這個候選不是你現在第9款只有針對緩刑沒有針對一顆罰金嘛"},{"start":6779.432,"end":6806.449,"text":"所以他二月的時候他說選擇一顆髮金他現在就可以選啊一顆髮金也必須要執行完畢一顆髮金前腳的就執行完畢了嗎對啊所以他當時選擇一顆髮金他就可以現在就可以選啊結果他當時選擇緩刑然後你們現在就有可能按照新法26條第9款然後讓他不能夠登記啊我想不管任何的個案就是說我們什麼不管任何個案我告訴你來我問你新法第二條是什麼概念"},{"start":6809.091,"end":6826.136,"text":"你自己學法律不曉得刑法第二條是什麼概念刑法第二條就是罪行法定主義嘛就是要從輕從如果今天新法跟舊法競合的時候新法是比較嚴格他在行為的時候不知道新法的話那麼必須要怎麼樣必須要從舊從輕嘛"},{"start":6828.357,"end":6852.936,"text":"這最基本的原則可是現在他在二月的時候他根本不知道五月會修法他當時選擇這個緩刑根本就不代表說他之後他怎麼會知道他會因為這樣而被剝奪他的參政權委員的這個意見沒有期待可能性啊委員的這個意見我們予以尊重但是就個案這因為已經牽涉到個案了而且認定的權限是在我們的委員會"},{"start":6854.117,"end":6870.53,"text":"我現在就是要告訴你你們的認定有可能會侵害他的一個權利嘛你會再做一個非常嚴重的一個處理法法律的規定現在就有問題我現在就要開始去年是不是有這樣的案例紅本城的案例是不是在彰化有這樣的案例"},{"start":6871.891,"end":6895.961,"text":"記不記得你記得嘛對不對當時是不是有提出行政假處分是有沒有同意假處分有同意嘛來這個當中為什麼會同意行政假處分第一個它是屬於公法上面的爭議為什麼因為是當事人的參政權跟你們是相對人所以有公法上的爭議第二個對於當事人的參政權而言如果他這次不能夠選他的"},{"start":6898.184,"end":6926.193,"text":"參政權是重大的損害無法回復而且無法以金錢彌補對不對然後他說對於你這個相對人而言如果你現在讓他選他到最後如果你們認為他不符合消極要件你們可以怎麼做你的究竟是什麼如果法院有假處分的話我們會遵照假我當然知道你我現在就是要告訴你說你如果有假處分當然要聽我可是我們現在是看假處分的理由你本身還有救濟管道對不對什麼是救濟管道"},{"start":6927.793,"end":6930.255,"text":"你去年的抗告被稅高行政法院駁回對不對"},{"start":6955.667,"end":6970.488,"text":"誰的你的抗告啦洪本成的案件對洪本成的案件對啊你被駁回對不對本案最後他敗訴啦那是什麼時候本案最後來這個就是關鍵了去年你抗告被駁回所以他可以選選完之後你今年又提出選舉無效訴訟對不對"},{"start":6973.003,"end":6989.069,"text":"有選舉無瑕事章對嘛你今年才提嘛提了以後結果是另一回事但是重點來了重點在利益橫平之下你如果現在不讓他選他的權益就是立即而重大而且不可毀損的回復的青睞欸你!你們相對人是有救濟權的欸"},{"start":6990.427,"end":7006.919,"text":"你也有救濟權耶所以為什麼最高等行政法院跟最高行政法院通通都駁回你們的申請而你現在我們事件發生之初我就告訴你這種狀況你還執意而行連刑法都不可以重就重新重就因為這個必須要15號的委員會來做這個如果你今天15號判定讓他可以繼續選我就跟你說對不起"},{"start":7014.744,"end":7037.76,"text":"我就跟你說對不起所以嘛我就跟你講我們現在這個預見15號的狀況你們極有可能會不受理他的登記嘛因為你們認為舊法清法已經把他的資格取消掉而事實上他在這個新法資格取消到的這個時候他早在三個月之前他根本不知道他沒有期待可能性他的信賴利益呢完全受到侵害他根本不會知道三個月之後要修法嘛"},{"start":7038.601,"end":7061.431,"text":"我們是根據現行的法律的規定來進行審查的所以你現在看到你們現行法律要即將侵害到他不可回復金錢無法補償的參政權的時候你們兩手一攤什麼都不做嗎不是 如果當事人他有其他的救濟的管道的話我們現在就在救濟啊我們也尊重我們也尊重我告訴你現在這個案件已經發生了"},{"start":7062.391,"end":7089.751,"text":"你們現在中選會仍然可以在這個15號之前做出什麼樣的一個事情但是我要告訴你15號之前什麼都不能做所以你看看你剛剛只是不願意告訴我你的結果事實上你的結果已經不言可喻了嘛15號大家開會委員會做決議了我們才有一個結果出來我現在要求你們就是說你應該要讓委員會委員知道這個案例為什麼因為你們的權利是不對等的"},{"start":7090.612,"end":7117.397,"text":"你一旦現在剝奪了他的這個選擇權他的參政權事實上他當時沒有其他的可能性他根本沒有辦法預見三個月之後他選擇緩行這件事情會被取消他的參選資格好再來你現在身為中選會你是有救濟管道的你的救濟管道就是之後你可以有選舉有效的訴訟的提出而這個是可以回復的對他而言你現在不讓他登記"},{"start":7118.257,"end":7144.237,"text":"他就沒有了而且其實在這個最高行政法院的判決裡面講了很重要的一個原則是什麼還有民主原則也就是說王家珍自己本身有權參政人民有權利選擇他這個叫選舉權我們有權利選擇他結果他人民選擇王家珍的權利是被你中選會剝奪而剝奪的理由不是被我剝奪了你在認定上面基本上認定上面是有問題因為這個法修得太快"},{"start":7144.797,"end":7160.971,"text":"這個修法在今年的6月才經過立法院單獨通過那我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行的時候我們根據大院通過的法律來執行我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行他會被剝奪參選權為什麼"},{"start":7162.999,"end":7179.816,"text":"你是不是要四個月以後你會不會下台這個在立法的過程裡面應該都會有所考量你不用去考慮立法的過程我現在要告訴你說你們現在即將要對撞即將就要發生這個禮拜就要發生你們中選會就要做出一個比刑法第二條"},{"start":7180.777,"end":7205.611,"text":"最新法定主義還要嚴格的這樣一個判斷從後去剝奪一個人的參政權參政權是憲法的基本人權你們中選會就會成為剝奪憲法基本人權的一個幫兇我現在就要告訴你現在最高行政法院也好高等行政法院也好去年的所有的一個判決還有都已經講出這樣的一個原則更何況你現在身為一個相對人你有救濟的管道你憑什麼在之前就不讓他選"},{"start":7206.383,"end":7235.371,"text":"如果有法院的確定的裁判我們都會尊重都會按照確定裁判來執行當然今天如果有行政假處分的話就會這麼做我現在是希望你們能夠在事前就能夠讓大家知道有這樣的一個案例充分的討論事前我沒有辦法事前我只能夠根據這個法律規定是怎麼樣我照這樣來回答我希望讓中選會的委員在開會的時候能夠充分知道這個案件做充分的討論有利不利的我們都會予以考量"},{"start":7236.916,"end":7264.064,"text":"這個案件沒有預設立場這個我們今天可以論辯這個過程未來都有可能會進入到憲法法院來憲法訴訟法裡面來進行這樣的一個討論為什麼因為這個法從現在個人的層次如果一旦未來如果說這個對於傷害人當事人的傷害是確定的話當事人也不排除一路會走到憲法這個解釋的程序"},{"start":7264.845,"end":7285.027,"text":"政績所以我現在要告訴你現在你身為中選會的一個主管機關你有可能就是這樣的一個可以說是扼殺參政權的一個筷子手這個責任我們負擔不起你就是執行人啊我們現在都看你依法執行不是我們來扼殺他依法執行但是就會扼殺了"},{"start":7285.968,"end":7303.675,"text":"二殺的參政權我讓你現在知道我現在要留下這個紀錄我現在要留下這個紀錄讓你知道說未來我們一旦進入到憲法訴訟的時候我們必須要在這個地方來思考如何保障基本人權這才是我們最大的目的是我們尊重尊重當事人的權利主張好謝謝委員謝謝主委謝謝陳以新委員接下來請黃士傑委員質詢"},{"start":7321.809,"end":7343.879,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們是不是請法務部黃謀信長次黃次長請委員好市長好朋友好我記得你好像也是我們桃園的鄉親對你老家在觀音的白玉對不對魚乾泉市很近對不對魚乾澇乾泉市走路幾分鐘"},{"start":7347.34,"end":7368.901,"text":"應該5分鐘內就走得到了那今天有一個這個我很少在這邊講關於個案的事情但是這個事情跟我們共同的故鄉很大的關係所以我希望很明確的請你來進行一個協助那麼最近桃園我們的桃園科技園區在哪裡你知道嗎桃科"},{"start":7369.541,"end":7389.897,"text":"在觀音附近在觀音嘛對不對在白玉跟大潭對那麼有三家SRF電廠要進駐在地方上產生很大的爭議對你知道這個新聞嗎我知道那麼你也知道說所以已經引發了很多的這個抗議對所以現在其實不管是中央政府或地方政府都在重新檢討當初的這個決定"},{"start":7393.192,"end":7422.256,"text":"但是這個過程裏面也引發了一些是不是在裏面有弊案的一些爭議我先讓你看一下一個影片來放影片有沒有聲音當我在商業站裏扶梯後"},{"start":7424.333,"end":7450.234,"text":"當我在3月份披露SRF場在我們的桃科設廠之後陸續有兩家要來摸頭我在關於甘肅市關於火土面前向大家尊重報告所說的這個利益他說是前朝決定的我是新科議員我不要講"},{"start":7463.997,"end":7483.563,"text":"五千萬市長,你看得有清楚嗎?這個議員你知道是誰嗎?不曉得,我不清楚很久沒回老家了這個議員是我們現任的桃園市議員吳敬昌他就在你的老家觀音的信仰中心甘玄寺前面講了這段話請教市長,如果這個議員所說屬實"},{"start":7486.021,"end":7503.787,"text":"由廠商、總民意代表、企業五千萬這麼大的利益而且是一年了言下之意就是每年都有然後要求他為一定職權的行使或不行使這個有沒有觸犯刑法"},{"start":7505.205,"end":7532.381,"text":"顧問報告就抽象的法律來講如果他因為他本身是依法執行公務的人員他是公務員那我們的貪污罪條例上面對這個公務員行求契約或交付賄賂的話他法律上他是有處罰的規定我講法律上所以這個民意代表也是這個廣義的這個行使公權他也是公務員行法上的公務員嘛對不對所以呢他所描述的情節"},{"start":7533.582,"end":7556.968,"text":"是不是我們的檢調單位應該要偵查的?那委員已經問到個案個案上他那個就是說那檢察官如果說因告訴告發這時候其他情勢只有犯罪嫌疑那所屬的管轄的地檢署他可以依法來處理好那但是我知道你們法務部DR局也有這個宿攤組對不對那地方上也都有據點嘛對不對"},{"start":7558.488,"end":7586.532,"text":"知道這樣子的情資有沒有主動去偵查這個是關我們人民的重大的權益而且這個五千萬如果他一人任期四年加起來是兩億這有沒有重大的這個可能是這個搞不好破紀錄如果這個匯款成真的話而且他還意圖指涉說有其他的人有相關的這些情節他自己說他自己沒有拿"},{"start":7587.518,"end":7605.168,"text":"到底有沒有辦法我不知道了那他所描述指控的這樣的情節難道我們的檢調單位不應該主動來偵查嗎不應該請他去具體就說他連相對人的講得相對清楚那三家裡面有兩家去找他他只是沒講是哪兩家而已"},{"start":7607.12,"end":7624.504,"text":"跟我們報告那因為這個有這樣子的披露理論上來講他所屬的地檢署他知道這個有這個犯罪嫌疑的話按照我們刑訴法228條的規定他應急開始偵辦那前提是所屬的地檢署要做一個判斷這個案子是要啟動偵查那我們現在是不是可以請你們轉資這一個"},{"start":7627.305,"end":7650.701,"text":"所屬應該是桃園地檢署還有你們法務部調查局相關的全責單位就這麼嚴重侵害人民權益這麼嚴重的妨礙我們行政的官員以及我們的民意代表執行公務的連結性這種指控這麼嚴重竟然沒有任何的調查連請這個議員去說一下到底哪兩家去找他都沒有"},{"start":7651.926,"end":7677.606,"text":"各位報告任何人知道這個有犯罪行為的話都可以依法提出告發報告委員今天在這個質詢那我們也當作告發案來轉資所屬機關其實我們要很嚴肅認真的去查查包括這位議員所說的是不是事實以及他所意圖影射的後面其他人包含行政官員包含其他民意代表你知道他講完之後第二天我們官員有兩席議員"},{"start":7678.666,"end":7683.327,"text":"另外一位議員就被民眾問說他拿五千萬那你有沒有"},{"start":7684.741,"end":7709.292,"text":"我相信這個事情是非常嚴重的我們應該要很嚴肅的去看待它如果連這樣子的披露跟這個指控我們都不處理我們假裝當作沒看到那我們要怎麼去取信於人民說我們真的有在維護我們政府機關八名民意代表食食植物的公正跟廉潔性"},{"start":7710.228,"end":7726.32,"text":"是,委員今天執勤之後我們會把資料轉給台灣地檢署台灣地檢署會依法處理好,那也是因為我們都是共同的故鄉希望你站在我們鄉親的權益上面一定要嚴加來督導這個事情一定要來徹查,可以嗎?"},{"start":7727.616,"end":7747.683,"text":"地檢署我沒有權利處理地檢署假、免而言我知道你要解釋我們都檢查體系我知道有權利分離謝謝那另外還有這個剛剛很多委員也有提到這個中國借選那麼比較常講到就是假訊息那最近好像橋頭地檢署一個案件涉及這個"},{"start":7749.998,"end":7768.516,"text":"用低價甚至無償招待里長或其他地方人士前往中國旅遊請問有這個案子嗎各位報告現在事實上也不只橋樓地檢署有好幾個地檢署有類似的案件在偵辦中那你們有沒有確實的掌握"},{"start":7769.457,"end":7798.541,"text":"他這個所謂的邀請或是說因為他一定在台灣有相關的這個組織或是說有窗口來去做這樣的邀請不然你怎麼知道去哪裡報名各位報告那從各相關地檢所發布的新聞稿來看他甚至有些已經做這個具體的強制處分甚至有申請羈押的動作那羈押或是強制處分前提要有犯罪嫌疑所以就具體事證來講所屬的地檢署應該要有掌握要不然他不會有做相關的強制處分甚至申請羈押的動作好"},{"start":7799.841,"end":7821.388,"text":"我們是希望說辦這個案子不是說事後去補救如果可以的話選前剩下三十幾天這種行為我們要能夠主動去把它遏止所以我問你說大家有沒有去找到這個相關的組織因為你們蔡部長先從媒體訪問的時候已經說這個是涉及到有可能違反反滲透法"},{"start":7822.468,"end":7841.739,"text":"相關的這個法令所以它不只是單純的這個會選或是說什麼相關的一般的我們國內案件這個其實跟這個我們國家民主的這個獨立自主相當大的關係所以希望說我們的檢調單位能夠正式而且能夠去嚇阻這樣的行為"},{"start":7842.959,"end":7862.771,"text":"這個相關的新聞稿出來也要廣為宣傳跟我們啟動的這個反會選查查等等的相關的這個宣傳要結合在一起各位報告我們除了這個反會選宣導之外我們相信最嚴厲最嚴格的查會就是最好的反會經過我們嚴厲的查會之後它其實達到一個宣導的作用"},{"start":7863.22,"end":7881.606,"text":"好,那我就希望說你們在宣導上面這一種形態也要把它列入能夠讓我們很多可能不了解這個事情的嚴重性事實上很多地方的里長或什麼的他不知道這件事情有多嚴重我們應該要好加大這個宣導力度讓他們不要誤掏法網是好,以上謝謝謝謝,來謝偉"},{"start":7884.646,"end":7892.334,"text":"我們等一下在鄭天才委員質詢完之後休息五分鐘現在請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":7914.604,"end":7936.301,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請內政部部長還有演民會一將主委還有法務部還有司法院部長好在你的報告裡面今天的報告裡面特別提到"},{"start":7937.352,"end":7957.191,"text":"案養子女與本身父母之權利義務已停止。提案得由本身父母申請取得原住民身份,以《民法》上開規定,事有罕格。又談養父母與本身父母就養子女取得原住民身份事件"},{"start":7958.332,"end":7984.015,"text":"發生意見衝突時,附贈居然如何辦理戶籍登記、發生爭議,嚴建請再爭走。」這裏面還提到這個你的報告裏面還提到堂養子女得任意申請本身父母之戶籍資料因涉及本身父母之個資提供將影響其權益嚴建請再爭走要特別特別的"},{"start":7984.745,"end":8011.094,"text":"來跟這個部長也請司法院法務部協助說明協助說明這個我們看這個司法院4至第28號解釋文我先講部長針對這個條文我做過開了很多次協調會但是你們的同仁不敢做我其實可以做解釋的"},{"start":8012.113,"end":8019.084,"text":"可以做解釋但是你們同仁不敢現在在修法我們現在是立法修法"},{"start":8029.745,"end":8045.899,"text":"當養父母與養子女利害相反涉及訴訟時依民事訴訟法第582條規定其本身父母得待為訴訟刑可見雖在所養期間本身父母對於養子女之利益仍得依法加以保護"},{"start":8047.031,"end":8071.598,"text":"所以楊子女以本身父母之天然血親關係仍屬存在亦即楊子女以本身父母仍屬直系血親所以這個部分很清楚的部分如果我們從司法院司制第28號解釋的一開始的解釋文裡面提到楊子女"},{"start":8072.694,"end":8087.821,"text":"以本身父母方面之天然血清人屬存在。」天然血清是沒有辦法被隔離的雖然它只是潛力義務但是天然血清永遠存在故有之天然血清"},{"start":8088.988,"end":8114.959,"text":"不需要回覆當這個終止所養關係的時候權利義務回覆但是所謂的回覆者只回覆其相互兼之權利義務故有之天然血清無待於回覆司法院的解釋大法官的解釋已經這麼清楚了我們看憲法法庭111年憲判制第4號判決這是最新的"},{"start":8115.982,"end":8143.804,"text":"人之血統須先以憲法法律存在之自然事實先以憲法法律存在之自然事實人的血統所以原住民之身份認同權應受憲法第22條規定高度保障來原住民特殊的人格權利所以這個部分因為這個下午審查我是希望"},{"start":8144.764,"end":8174.07,"text":"司法院內政部請司法院跟法務部這個等一下就先協商是不是能夠因為這個部分涉及到這個人他自己要回復父母親本身父母願意他回復然後養父母也願意讓他回復結果你說不可以這是很重要的我們看這個"},{"start":8176.038,"end":8201.259,"text":"部長、堂、養子女得任意申請本身父母之戶籍資料因涉及本身父母各自提供,因影響其權益,言見請再以申走。」我們現在的條文是說成年了這個養子女成年了可以依個人的意願來回復她的原住民身份"},{"start":8203.117,"end":8214.36,"text":"他如果不能去申請他的本身父母的資料的戶籍資料他如何去提供如何去證明如何去證明現在重體在這裡啊你現在引用的是一個一個處理原則我們現在是修法我們現在是立法"},{"start":8226.238,"end":8250.005,"text":"所以這個部分我這邊時間的關係就不再請你們等一下我要拜託內政部我們現在是立法、修法過去部長我們原住民生物法民國90年公布施行我那時候是副主委我還是處長那時候還是處長我們有一條條文"},{"start":8254.079,"end":8271.221,"text":"原住民身份先的原來的那個民法法務部知道原來的民法規定重復性人出生了要重復性是原住民身份法排除民法的1059條"},{"start":8273.928,"end":8299.077,"text":"父母可以協議來到底要讓你的孩子要從父訓還是從母訓是從原住民身份法開始的後來民法才修正配合按照我們的一樣的意見一樣的條文所以這個部分這個我們要特別特別的另外就是說原民會的部分我剛剛講過"},{"start":8302.848,"end":8331.558,"text":"這很重要這條文一定要改所以等一下趕快協商主委你看一下你要看這個條文這很重要現行的條文看最右邊的現行的條文原住民以原住民結婚守生之利取得原住民身份不用申請取得他是自天然的事實人的血血統就是這樣"},{"start":8332.739,"end":8355.467,"text":"起得你現在的修正條文是得申請起得現在的這個在副政事務所一看原住民跟原住民的結婚所生的孩子他直接把他登記原住民身份現在變得申請起得這非常非常的嚴重所以這個一定要改為"},{"start":8357.52,"end":8386.963,"text":"得申請這三個字要拿掉等下趕快協商所以我們等下下午審查的時候才會順利這個部分非常非常的重要部長跟法務部還有司法院請回座我們看這個工作權保障法現行的條文是針對第4條是針對不計公務人員任用資格的"},{"start":8388.617,"end":8409.867,"text":"定一個名額的一個比例百分比現在修正為這個員包括公務人員包括公務人員的話而且你把併在一起公務人員我當然贊成但是你要把併在同一條條文的時候當一個鄉長、一個鎮長、一個市長"},{"start":8414.855,"end":8444.297,"text":"或者是在原鄉地區的不管中央的各部會這個不需要公務人員資格的他如果你這樣定的話他全部都用公務人員因為公務人員分發什麼他沒辦法做決定這些首長可以決定的就是什麼變成說不需要公務人員資格的以後都變成不是原住民了"},{"start":8446.178,"end":8474.931,"text":"全部都用公務員這個是對我們不計公務人員身份的這些這些相關的這些司機、駕駛、清潔工我們現在大概都清潔隊了我們現在很多都因為清潔隊他需要公務人員身份所以這個部分希望這個人民會能夠跟相關的不會再協商我的條文"},{"start":8476.252,"end":8496.289,"text":"像我的條文我提案的條文分開的你這個不需要公務人員資格的繼續原來的條文我們非常謝謝要把公務人員國營事業還有公立學校能夠"},{"start":8497.785,"end":8521.425,"text":"既有這些考試資格的我們另外定這是應該的然後我特別還增加什麼政府監助財團法人政府監助的財團法人我們當然可以我們現在是政府監助財團法人按照財團法人法政府監助50%以上政府監助50%以上"},{"start":8526.943,"end":8551.135,"text":"有的甚至百分之百哦!很多的那個草原法院是政府兼助百分之百的很多所以這個部分也請原民會能夠跟相關部會能夠協調溝通讓這樣的條文非常好的條文能夠通過所以這個部分包括我們整個"},{"start":8556.927,"end":8566.092,"text":"職員、既有公務人員資格的跟沒有公務人員資格的還是要把他分開 諸位可以我們努力去協調 可以嗎"},{"start":8568.342,"end":8596.445,"text":"我們會後再看一下相關條文來做處理不過剛剛委員最後提到那個那個財團法人的部分但是第12條已經有相關的規範第12條你是說你們現在提的嗎還是說現在的院版現在的院版你說財團法人公放在12條裡面放在12條所以我們在審查條文的時候我們再仔細看但是重點是在於那個"},{"start":8597.679,"end":8606.641,"text":"原跟公還是要分開好不好好 謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員主委請回座 現在請羅美蓮委員質詢謝謝主席 也請一將主委一將主委請"},{"start":8628.081,"end":8656.178,"text":"委員好各位好 各位去年台灣加入了這個由紐西蘭發起的原住民族經貿合作協議就是所謂的IPECA那創始的會員國除了有紐西蘭、台灣還有加拿大跟這個澳洲那這是一個國際首創以推動原住民族經貿跟投資議題為主的這個國際經貿協議那真的是非常感謝一將主委的這個努力"},{"start":8656.738,"end":8674.446,"text":"那我們經歷了一年多的籌備所以這四個會員國其實在APEC期間美國召開了第一次的夥伴關係理事會那在會中我方有提出了三個優先合作的項目那第一個就是"},{"start":8675.526,"end":8701.295,"text":"推動永續旅遊合作,帶動我方原住民族的經濟產業第二點就是建立官方對官方還有民間對民間的經貿窗口第三還有氣候變遷、公正轉型的碳匯對這三點本席真的是非常的肯定可是除了這三個之外之後可能還有很多的合作項目可以提出本席有提出兩個建議"},{"start":8702.675,"end":8717.22,"text":"除了這個旅遊還有經貿的合作之外其實我們還可以強化深化這個再生能源產業跟文創產業其實本期有提出這個建議其實也有參考過其實我們"},{"start":8718.82,"end":8725.225,"text":"原住民族產業與紐西蘭貿易之可行性的評估報告我現在想到竟然我們有這個經貿平台其實有很多之前我們請委外的研究的內容其實我們都可以在這裡來做落實北西哥有提到所謂的再生能源產業因為台灣現在也在積極的推行再生能源產業"},{"start":8748.561,"end":8750.662,"text":"紐西蘭有80%的電力是來自於再生能源其中有17.8%是來自於地熱去年我們再生能源條例在修正的時候其實我們也增設了地熱專案在紐西蘭來講"},{"start":8769.232,"end":8783.823,"text":"他的地熱其實有9個地熱發電區其中有3個是由毛利人所共同持有管理紐西蘭的地熱電廠特別在毛利人參與的程度是非常的高"},{"start":8784.523,"end":8807.003,"text":"那政府更是輔導毛利人自行申請籌建地熱的電廠那台灣的地熱潛能資源有40.6%其實是在我們原住民的傳統領域所以台灣是否能夠順利發展地熱其實跟原住民族的溝通合作有很"},{"start":8807.823,"end":8834.31,"text":"很重要的這個關係所以我們也是希望說我們臺灣其實可以透過這個原民經貿協議這個平臺然後跟其他國家的這個來取經然後跟這個紐西蘭其實我們可以做一個交流那我不曉得說一將主委在跟我們的這個會員國在以後呢有沒有想到就是說我們在地熱方面的我們可以來做一個交流或是做相互的這個投資"},{"start":8835.59,"end":8853.946,"text":"跟委員兩點的說明第一點是關於你一開始提到的IPECA這次在美國討論到永續旅遊的這個部分的議題那其實明年的世界民主禮物高峰會已經確定要在台灣舉行明年的試驗第一屆是在紐西蘭"},{"start":8859.31,"end":8875.3,"text":"第二屆在今年的上半年在澳洲第三屆在台灣是紐西蘭主動推薦給我們這個旅遊高峰會說希望台灣來承辦我們已經取得這個承辦的這個這個這個這個責任所以明年失業這是一點說明"},{"start":8876.981,"end":8896.291,"text":"第二點是關於委員最後提到這個有關地樂的部分其實我們這幾年跟紐西蘭已經有持續做相關的交流他們已經有多次來台灣來跟我們分享他們有關地樂剛剛委員提到這個部分所以像目前在台東的應該是在"},{"start":8898.092,"end":8916.64,"text":"原坪的紅葉溫泉同時有溫泉跟地熱這部分目前公所也正在做這樣的處理這部分我們也會藉助我們紐西亞的過去經驗持續做這樣一個地熱的發展讓原住民在再生能源這部分也有一個實質參與的潛力"},{"start":8919.241,"end":8936.787,"text":"所以我想說紐西蘭其實有真的有很多可以接近的地方那再來我還有提到文創這個產業像台灣我們也是南島語系的這個運輸的這個發源地那台灣原住民的這個多元的語言跟文化我想應該也是台灣的一個主流文化"},{"start":8937.287,"end":8957.123,"text":"那文創產業它其實是一個很棒的這個發展的這個途徑那像這個澳洲也就是這個IPECA的這個會員國之一澳洲的新南威爾斯州它有10個原住民土地委員會那成立了一個國家原住民設計機構就是NATA我們所謂的NATA"},{"start":8958.544,"end":8973.314,"text":"那我們台灣也有一個LIMA可是LIMA它畢竟是一個電商平台它跟那個NADA的這個性質比較不太一樣像那個NADA他們會運用原住民的這個傳統智慧跟藝術創作跟當代的這個設計進行這個媒合然後開發出這個商品跟這個作品"},{"start":8979.998,"end":9008.593,"text":"那他們甚至還會跟這個原住民的這個藝術家、設計公司共同開發出比如說具有原住民族風格的像家具、家飾等等那這個利潤大家都是像NADA或是藝術家跟這些公司它都是共享的那台灣目前還沒有辦法做到這樣我們只是提供一個像LIMA這樣子的一個電商平台那我在想說我們的會員國澳洲、紐西蘭其實他們對於原住民文化的這個重視是跟台灣是一樣的"},{"start":9009.193,"end":9024.455,"text":"那我在想在文創方面我們是不是也可以跟他們來做一個交互的交流請問主委跟委員說明剛剛你提到這個LIMA的電商平台應該是從去年就開始推動"},{"start":9025.276,"end":9049.833,"text":"但事實上我們也有實體的這個電商平臺已經把那個這個是它是一個電商平臺嗎這是我們供這個商家來做一個商品的一個展售啦展示等等可是我們對於這個設計師藝術家的這個提供的這個資源其實可能沒有像說澳中新南威爾斯這麼的深入我是這麼覺得是主委繼續我們這個部分其實"},{"start":9050.994,"end":9076.661,"text":"包括我們在鄭文昌副院長還在當桃園市長的時候他已經完成一個很重要的國際原住民產業的這個園區這個部分應該在明年就會正式來營運整個委員的這個有關文創的這個建議我們會把他納入在整個我們推動跟國際的這個文創的部分包括紐西蘭澳洲這個部分我們會執勤做交流"},{"start":9076.961,"end":9100.73,"text":"對我真想說我們都是屬於南島語族的這個國家我真想我們在這方面應該有很多的合作的這個機會我想說那我們原住民的文化呢主向國際也是一個我想也是原民會應該要來努力的這個方向尤其是我們現在有一個IPECA的這個平台我想在我們走入國際我想有更多更多的這個機會是我很謝謝委員最嚴敏的這個"},{"start":9102.01,"end":9127.352,"text":"這個IPECA的那個認知那麼深入而且都完全掌握嚴敏的地熱還有包括文創這個部分謝謝委員對這個部分的整個指教我們會持續依委員的這些建議來推動我們未來的整個原住民族產業的這個推廣OK 好 謝謝主委 原民會加油好 現在休息5分鐘休息後繼續開會"},{"start":9140.843,"end":9141.087,"text":"這個禮貌之中"},{"start":9478.787,"end":9482.568,"text":"接下來請莊瑞雄委員質詢謝謝張偉有請我們內政部林右昌林部長還有警政署我們黃署長來林部長黃署長請"},{"start":9501.8,"end":9522.988,"text":"部長跟署長有幾個問題要來就教跟建議目前我們各縣市地方警察局設置的一個標準我們按照各地方的警察局的轄區人口數我們去核算設置的一個緣額再分別去以面積機動車輛數還有犯罪率去核算緣額的一個增值以目前來看的話你看那個"},{"start":9524.369,"end":9545.626,"text":"直轄市 設置一個緣額省轄市跟轄區人口50萬以上或國際機場、港口這一些500人就給一個就對了那其他各縣市警察局人口以700人來設置一個緣額其他的部分我就不再贅述了但是你如果說按照轄區人口所管面積來做基礎並且以轄區內的犯罪率等其他的"},{"start":9549.449,"end":9562.812,"text":"一個來併營來做一個增加緣額確實是一個好方法可是呢本席認為這中間有一個盲點署長你聽聽看就是說以目前我們警政署你去統計轄區人口數都是要來重播要依靠去統計月報來做一個基礎可是呢民主就說林部長或是署長沒中你可能本地的基隆市長依靠可能在那裡如果他做沒中你讓他在台北可能"},{"start":9576.756,"end":9593.087,"text":"上班在這個地方全台這樣有的跑來跑去的甚至當然也有很多北漂族、南漂族戶籍跟真正的居住地其實它是不一樣的那本席是認為說以新北市來看你譬如說新北市的林考所4803萬594人但是根據你這個電信信息人口的統計資料裡面平日夜間的新北市就高達440萬4882人這個是一個相去甚遠的一個"},{"start":9606.816,"end":9629.125,"text":"有一段差距的一個數字那目前的設置規則裡面的一個盲點就是說如果你按照轄區的人口數你到了夜間的高人口數的尖峰時段的話你可能變成一個員警啊你要去平均照顧的人數就會上升當然也會增加整個員警這個一個執勤上的一個負擔這個就是本席今天想要來請教署長的就是說"},{"start":9631.909,"end":9647.72,"text":"我們目前原警設置規則有存在這樣的一個盲點在那我給你具體建議啦既然內政部現在都已經有統計資料那警政署是不是把它納入參考去做微幅調整來達到更好的一個平衡請教署長"},{"start":9650.782,"end":9663.115,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個議題我想除了我們剛剛所設置的標準除了人口、面積、車輛數、犯罪例外當然還要包含治安的要點要維護的還有特警的頻率這個要動員蠻多的人力"},{"start":9666.818,"end":9681.149,"text":"所以相對你看台北市為什麼他的警力數會比新北市還高一點但是他人口數還是少這個要考量到其他因素的一個編制那您所提醒的這個確實是一個盲點那我容我們來或又來嚴厲看要怎麼來"},{"start":9684.011,"end":9684.872,"text":"政府如何去制定合理的"},{"start":9712.828,"end":9728.662,"text":"那整個房屋啊的貸款的一個層數啊我看啊 柏丁你有沒有看到啊 張立豪你有沒有問到啊在會議裡在海黨的總統候選人提出了一個政見這個政見喊出了就是說購屋貸款提升到1500萬啊這貸款比例18%啊貸款前5年只需償還利息政府再補貼0.5%啊那"},{"start":9738.311,"end":9744.178,"text":"這個週末我看這個候選人會有一些肇事的孫子比較傳傳你的政見以外他在那裡痛批你說你跟年輕人距離太遠說責政黨完全不了解年輕人的一個痛苦這個我聽了我是很不以為然為什麼很不以為然"},{"start":9757.028,"end":9762.772,"text":"你說這個貸款一千五百萬投機款全部都政府來做這個負擔我如果做年輕人我聽起來會爽你知道嗎我聽起來會很忙我會說哇 這麼好啊都不用傳錢給人家買房子可是呢你把它冷靜下來以後你把它想一想這個是一顆毒蘋果為什麼它是一個毒蘋果呢假設"},{"start":9779.002,"end":9784.285,"text":"都在不升息的情況之下而且貸款的金額是1500萬以台銀你看以台銀現在來看喔台銀現在的房貸是2.0%2.06來計算前5年你去補貼0.5%的話就是說你2.06減掉0.5剩1.56"},{"start":9797.213,"end":9814.43,"text":"那每一期你要本利合本利合差不多就一萬九千五那個本當然前五年是零啦九千五那如果五年過後你補貼零點一二五就是二點零六百分之二點零六減掉零點一二五"},{"start":9815.111,"end":9819.254,"text":"就等於1.935差不多每一期一番看本利盒會高達6萬3千塊我以後想五年後提委你心碎有辦法這樣一直增加你知道嗎這個政策落實了以後我反而會擔心"},{"start":9830.521,"end":9835.224,"text":"提出這個政策的人年輕人會喜歡可是呢你讓他去沉澱以後他會覺得說我甘湯為什麼我說落實以後造成像比如說美國的金融危機就是一個次貸危機你前5年你19500大多數人我看都付得起年輕人也會開心但是這個第6年以後負擔超過是將近3.2倍"},{"start":9852.877,"end":9856.881,"text":"又轉售又綁10年。」這對我這個年輕人來說,我感覺說,對我身體是增加了很多,不然還會更大一個負擔。所以我請教部長的就是說,對我有一所主張這樣,我都很擔心變成說當沖,會變成隔代沖的一個風險。前5年我負擔得起,第6年開始負點3.2倍買房以後啊,"},{"start":9876.579,"end":9881.184,"text":"薪水若無淨價或我籌到地價賄或我有其他投資收入的話那個確實是還款還到老以後變成說現在在幫助年輕人其實也會造成很大的負擔尤其我更擔心的是什麼呢我更擔心的就是說你現在這1500萬你把它當成一個門檻我要中古屋出售"},{"start":9899.418,"end":9907.356,"text":"變相都會抬高會有抬高到一直搞不好我如果建商我拉我把他拉到1500以後我企出來成屋我企出來就要1500所以柏中你會看我是怎樣"},{"start":9911.506,"end":9935.782,"text":"我想任何的購買的行為都應該是理性的然後第二個你必須要考慮可負擔那衝動的一個購買的行為這個通常都是比較不好的那特別是購物這個金額的這個金額數很大那剛剛在講所謂的免投期款並不是不用還他還是要還因為總價並沒有改變"},{"start":9941.427,"end":9957.806,"text":"但是那個五年之後就會有還款的問題因為他會把原本你應該要還的全部加上來也就是你會比要支付頭期款你必須還更多的一個錢在總價不變的一個狀況之下在第五年之後"},{"start":9958.767,"end":9984.044,"text":"所以剛剛提到如果說是用1500萬免頭期款來算的話等於那個總價的金額大概是1875萬那原本你是要付375萬的一個頭期款但是如果是在這樣的狀況下不用付但是5年之後你還是要回頭還那個375萬的一個本金所以他的負擔其實是會加重所以你擔憂的是什麼"},{"start":9986.695,"end":9999.853,"text":"我擔心的是我們政府的一個政策必須要穩健那第二個是我們現在的一個方式都是鼓勵儲蓄然後政府最後幫你一把"},{"start":10000.894,"end":10027.772,"text":"也就是你有相關的一個優惠利率的一個提供那在這個你支付了這個所謂的頭期款之後第一個是掂量自己的購物的能力買適合的房子第二個是你有真正能夠還款的這樣子一個能力的一個配套那這個時間是很長因為還款的貸款期間大概是20到30年的時間所以必須要考慮到整個的合理的一個購買能力"},{"start":10028.152,"end":10044.018,"text":"任何一個負責任的政府你要看看你要解決的到底是什麼這一題其實我也要講的其實也叫做居住正義居住正義這個東西就是地方政府、中央政府任何一個政府它全部都有責任這就是怎樣你知道嗎?就是你應該地方政府應該做的事情"},{"start":10047.979,"end":10054.203,"text":"像譬如說社會住宅你新北市搞不好你的電影都要停頓了這沒搞到你現在開始要競速、要飆車我都很擔心這一題它會翻車啦為什麼呢你去把它看啦我們政府一直在強調居住正義就是說問題咧我們要捐獻年輕人及租屋主的一個負擔以社會住宅來看的話第一階段本來政府"},{"start":10070.313,"end":10082.228,"text":"在幫忙地方政府資金挹注還幫忙去找土地譬如說第一屆在台北市我們補助40倍的電子街端在110年中央政府投入了直接興建社會住宅我們從修法裡面來看這個我感受特別深刻我到第8屆的時候都沒有人在談這個"},{"start":10088.456,"end":10091.017,"text":"是蔡政府上來到第9屆我們開始去談那110、109、2017年的時候我們去修這個住宅法這增訂中央主管機關為新辦的一個主體就是說以前地方政府去中央給你錢、給你賺土地現在我們覺得沒辦法了我們把它修法中央政府直接去下場我們也可以去蓋"},{"start":10108.084,"end":10118.392,"text":"然後蔡政府上來以後我相信很多的一個措施包括你看我們連整個社宅法我們不斷的去做一個修改連社宅的一個弱勢比例我們從10%升到30%現在還要變40%電鍋也已經放寬了所以欲有未成年子女家庭富兒社會住宅弱勢的資格本來是3個現在都放寬降低到"},{"start":10132.583,"end":10134.685,"text":"兩個所以我是認為這條這條部長你如果剛才在這裡正面回應我都很擔心一顆毒蘋果但是一個很爽的政策其實我實在是"},{"start":10145.404,"end":10147.826,"text":"一直在問部長說要把年輕人這樣倒幾次我們也一直在說看可不可以創一個基金我年輕的我來簽字政府相對我們就幫補助多少理責的部分我來幫你做一個補貼那就是一個比較穩健的方式但是沒有想到 吼吼吼 你們給我一隻狗找一個全部都不用錢"},{"start":10166.865,"end":10175.733,"text":"這個講的齁中央政府你看你看那個中央銀行在做信用管制的時候我看那一波一波一波的這樣發首購你看他現在他買一間房子大家看你現在我們如果他買一間房子大家看我們75年了可以大家75年了你現在不是全部都不用建屋都來這個實在是要好好的去內政部要好好的去把這個利弊喔"},{"start":10190.766,"end":10198.81,"text":"真的要去講一下另外最後一個問題主席不好意思我們這個主席對我最好的讓我把這一題把他那個年輕朋友在擔心的一個問題很多租屋主我上次也就教過花次還有部長就是說我們從立法院第一個我幾乎"},{"start":10209.736,"end":10213.561,"text":"針對這個租屋的租屋主的電費問題第一個提出這個質詢我一直在追蹤這個問題後續我也提過好幾次就是說終於讓台電在去年初在帳單上可以增列了前年度平均電費來讓房東房客有一個依據"},{"start":10229.759,"end":10248.915,"text":"但是根據整個租客聯盟的租屋狀況的調查顯示仍然有高達4成的租屋主的電費計算方式仍然是按照房東規定的每度電費來做一個繳納這個普遍都是超收讓房客也只能咬牙去做這樣的一個接受那今年度呢"},{"start":10249.455,"end":10271.794,"text":"我相信也有更多的委員一起來努力這個問題向台電提出質詢本席也看到內政部上個月邀集各單位跟相關團體召開第二次的座談來談這個精進租電費的一個資訊及寄收的一個標準我要請教部長就是說你內政部連串兩次座談會裡面有沒有更進一步的具體的一個方向"},{"start":10272.979,"end":10301.449,"text":"我想這個會議是花次長主持的是他相關的討論的細節還沒有跟我報告是不是容我會後請花次長再跟委員做說明好 我是這樣認為啦如果說在這個住宅租賃定型化契約裡面你那個殷記載跟不得記載事項裡面你那個電費的一個上限為台電所訂當月用電的一個最高級距的每度的一個金額改為當期每度的平均電費然後呢並且在租屋的一個"},{"start":10302.049,"end":10306.071,"text":"租賃的一個定型化契約裡面新增房東電費透明的一個義務那將來講的話有辦法來額外來計算出來除了內政部以外臺電現在也不斷的在鼓勵房東來裝置這個智慧電表以及以單獨裝表的方式來計算各間的一個分租雅房的一個使用的一個電度也沒有單獨的裝置"},{"start":10325.82,"end":10329.302,"text":"計算公共設施用電的一個房東能夠要求他們來提出合理的電費單價的計算原則向房東來公開這個費用來收取這個依據我期待部長這個因為你說次長沒跟你報告有沒有這個我們把它解決掉啦我覺得對年輕朋友那些租屋主來講才公平啊"},{"start":10344.048,"end":10363.677,"text":"是,委員你提的這兩點意見基本上我覺得是合理那我們應該是可以在這個定型化契約裡面來做這個把它綠定我想這個對於整個的一個規範應該是有幫助的是,我覺得應該去貫徹的地方就是說阿不然我做房東我幫你帶電我就用這麼多而已我創造好之後我做好這個房子我給他連電又給他賺一條是,變相加價了是"},{"start":10371.261,"end":10380.485,"text":"好部長這一點一定要把他努力把他完成了好不好是好謝謝好謝謝部長謝謝莊委員接下來請江啟臣委員質詢好請這個召委要請內政部長還有原民會主委林部長一將主委請"},{"start":10404.072,"end":10430.857,"text":"兩位好我想時間有限主要今天就針對這個土地問題土地問題應該都跟兩個部位有關大家知道這個早期臺灣的這些早一點的農民、祖先等等在山地上開墾但後來因為有些土地又列為林保地、原保地特別是像原保地這些"},{"start":10431.937,"end":10459.389,"text":"所以其實他們一路在訴求這個土地的權利不管是使用權或所有權這部分其實訴求很久那本行因為我的這個選區當中有不少都屬於這部分的這樣子的土地也很困擾那過去不管是內政部、監察院、原民會其實你們都知道這個問題或許我不曉得部長你了不了解但主委應該了解才對"},{"start":10461.009,"end":10486.287,"text":"那2010年的時候內政部曾經針對這個是否要放寬這個還我土地計畫這件事情有開會也有一些決議但後來不了了之那2021年7月今天財運就直接糾正內政部關於這件事情就是說應該要有效的去處理"},{"start":10487.867,"end":10506.344,"text":"那針對這個糾正案內政部當初認為說這不是我管轄的然後應該是有國有差案署又涉及到元寶地所以應該屬於原住民委員會不管怎麼樣到現在沒有處理啦所以這些人也只能抗爭也只能陳情也只能無奈因為"},{"start":10507.805,"end":10534.702,"text":"當然有一些人或許他不是真的在耕作那大部分有不少人他是真的祖宗八大這樣子下來他就在那塊土地上面耕作可是他面臨到什麼他面臨到說使用權、所有權可能通通沒辦法那或許有一些你們說我來修法讓你去租用但是包括這一塊到現在我也沒有看到任何的處理進度"},{"start":10535.956,"end":10561.265,"text":"所以導致這些人也只能不斷的抗爭不斷的陳情那有一些都已經好幾代了從他的阿公、爸爸到他現在這個產權各方面都還是不明的所以我想請教兩位就是說這到底是誰的事情如果涉及到這麼多部會的事情那為什麼行政院沒有一個政務委員出來協調勒"},{"start":10562.858,"end":10591.057,"text":"然後就放任這個事情在那裡然後你們面對監察院的糾正也不理啊這是2020、2021年的監察院7月份給你們糾正啊你們有處理嗎現在已經2023年了委員你提的是元寶地的問題對啊就是這一些元墾農他們的訴求嘛他們最早的訴求就是還我土地嘛對不對不要讓這個事情變成是"},{"start":10593.583,"end":10617.727,"text":"漢人跟原住民之間的變成這樣子的一個衝突不應該是這樣子他有他的歷史背景可是也不能因為過去的歷史到現在很複雜就把它丟著我想這也是為什麼監察院會去糾正你們的原因你們沒有處理就放任他在那邊拿到那個"},{"start":10621.758,"end":10641.648,"text":"主委你沒有你沒有接受接受過這些陳情嗎跟委員報告原住民保留地非原住民是有可以有陳租錢那因為目前山坡地保育利用條例它是明定"},{"start":10643.072,"end":10659.343,"text":"原住民保留地的所有錢遺傳是以原住民為限所以一般非原民的部分他的使用錢就是承租錢是還是可以的承租錢也不完整也不是大家都可以承租有一些他直接面臨收回"},{"start":10660.521,"end":10688.493,"text":"有些個案是因為我們現在所遇到的有些是直接要求收回他也不再承諸所以原民會之前我找來協調的時候我也找了原民會、民務局、內政部、國務參院都開過協調會啦太多次了我擔任快12年的立委這個議題不要困擾我們多久到現在你們沒有一個單位有那樣子的承擔補充報告這一點就是"},{"start":10690.073,"end":10718.596,"text":"你們說要修那個原開條例嘛特別提到那個白毛臺的那個案例不只白毛臺 太多了 包括和平地區以這個案例來講的話我們現在就是因為我們行政院版的原住民保留地開發管理條例的那個案子現在目前已經在立法院了所以就要解決這些問題但是有沒有 就前幾天是不是有院長來協調啊有協商啊 也沒有共識啊也沒有共識啊 所以這問題就代表這個會議也不可能有結果啦"},{"start":10719.758,"end":10744.375,"text":"那行政部門你們的勇氣到底在哪裡?你們的承擔到底在哪裡?我們會願意把條例送到立法院就是要解決這些問題這些不完全是立法院的事情如果你們行政部門沒有辦法把這些事情做釐清也不願意去承擔這些責任的話你在立法院怎麼可能談得出共識?不可能有共識的每一個立委代表的都是不同的族群你怎麼有共識?"},{"start":10745.796,"end":10770.836,"text":"對不對那你政府的行政責任在哪裡你們行政責任就是解決問題你要擔起來啊你們到底要怎麼做啊對不對你說可以有成豬也不見得大家都可以成豬喔有些不能成豬的是因為他是超限利用才不能成豬的超限利用歸超限利用大部分案例是超限利用我現在講的是都是幾十年來人家就在那邊開墾的甚至早期都還是政府鼓勵開墾的"},{"start":10776.395,"end":10805.219,"text":"結果他現在可能連一個農民身份都拿不到為什麼?因為土地問題要嘛沒有所有權要嘛沒有承租權沒有契約那現在如果要重新打契約的時候一堆新的規定又來了反正就是感覺就是說你們趕快走了不要在這邊耕作了啦我土地要收回啦這就是我的原住民保留地這就是我的林保地我就不讓你們耕作了太多了遇到太多這樣子的個案了"},{"start":10806.844,"end":10822.909,"text":"這些個案過去也曾經被逼到被逼到自殺的也不是沒有啊我也處理過啊所以才會有監察院這個糾正案嘛難道這個在糾正立法院嗎這糾正你們欸怎麼會反過來糾...來...你來跟我們講說欸躺在立法院這根本是標準的卸責啊"},{"start":10828.834,"end":10836.897,"text":"拖了多少年了那這些人如果啊主委主委你講話小心一點我可以講你們站在這個問題處理的立場上面如果還是這麼壓霸的態度的話你就是讓這些人不斷的抗議對不對"},{"start":10849.301,"end":10858.505,"text":"法律案的問題是在協商的過程裡面沒辦法達成共識然後行政部門你們又挑起了什麼責任勒難道這個財安署要糾正我們喔是糾正你們勒你糾正你內政部你內政部又推給什麼 原民會又推給國有財安署沒有答案啊到現在沒有啊不然你告訴我嘛 怎麼解決嘛"},{"start":10877.606,"end":10899.12,"text":"這些人的抗爭這些人的訴求你告訴我怎麼解決我是一個民意代表我不是行政官員我也不是部長我能做的事情就是幫他們表達他們的訴求他們的意見他們的想法他們就是想要工作他們就是想要合法的在那邊這個組裝商在那邊勿攏他能不能在那邊勿攏下去嗎"},{"start":10904.619,"end":10931.796,"text":"你不能把所有的人都打都一竿子打翻所有人好像他們通通都是不法的其實有很多人他也是合法在那邊啊很多的案例都是取得層出權對不對會後也可以給委員做參考有一些有但有一些沒有不然不會不然不會有那麼多人他拿不到農保他甚至在天然災害受到影響的時候政府的補助他也沒有資格拿為什麼因為"},{"start":10934.892,"end":10962.057,"text":"他沒有身份這裡面還涉及到很多其他的問題啦原案之間這我不要講可是我要跟你講的就是真正在那邊耕作的人他不見得有土地的使用權跟所有權過去因為政府沒有沒有一個法制化的管理所以造成這些土地因為被劃歸原住民保留地所以只有原住民才能夠有所有權對不對但是這些土地能不能賣"},{"start":10963.971,"end":10991.814,"text":"你們的規定是怎麼樣你自己也很清楚可是中間呢就透過很多私人的這些他們的不管是租啦賣啦這些等等的然後也沒有去管理然後就最後造成真正在這上面種種果樹的啦 務農的啦他也沒有農民身份他也沒有辦法拿到農保相關的農業補助他也拿不到 為什麼因為土地身份沒有得到"},{"start":10992.711,"end":11021.991,"text":"沒有得到證明沒有得到法律上面的一個合法的保障所以這是土地衍生出來它的身份問題我在這邊只是要求你們趕快解決這個問題而不是要你來這邊推卸責任那你難道你修了那個法這個問題就解決了嗎還有在這修法過程裡面你們所有的委員難道對這個問題能夠有共識嗎因為每個人背後所代表的"},{"start":11022.93,"end":11051.685,"text":"不要說什麼,連族群的利益都不見得一樣所以這就是有賴你行政部門你們要去看法規上怎麼處理能夠得到最圓滿的解決嘛我們要求的就是這樣子而已啊所以你不要在這邊推卸責任啦沒有推卸責任啦那你就回去看怎麼要面對這些抗爭啊我們會把條例送到大院就是不是推卸責任好,那你告訴我嘛現在也沒有辦法解決啊你那個什麼條例也沒辦法解決啊的確就是沒有共識啊"},{"start":11052.926,"end":11068.536,"text":"那沒有共識不是尊重大院你要去處理那些問題啦不是尊重大院阿不然要這個政府幹嘛對不對你如果這個政府沒辦法解決問題要這個政府幹嘛阿政府就是要處理問題的阿不能因為他複雜阿就不處理阿所以你也答不出來"},{"start":11082.95,"end":11086.971,"text":"好接下來我們請由玉蘭召委質詢謝謝主席我請林部長、黃明昭署長以及黃某信次長部長、署長、次長三位好"},{"start":11109.468,"end":11128.917,"text":"我看到一個擇新我看得蠻難過的因為去年8月發生的台南殺警案有這個叫做師大數學哥的他是在我們曹蕙潔跟童明成被殺了之後他在宣說台灣九城警察都是垃圾廢物"},{"start":11130.219,"end":11151.182,"text":"然後臺南市警察局這個第二分局就調查之後就函送新北地檢署偵辦但是新北地檢署做出不起訴的處分然後家屬申請再議也被駁回了結果駁回之後他就更囂張了就一副就是"},{"start":11153.083,"end":11181.434,"text":"好像是司法已經給他背書了然後就說他說兩個警察死了都是言論自由部長跟署長你們作為警察的大家長你們對這樣子的言論自由你能夠接受嗎我看到了台南市黃偉哲市長出來踏法了但是我想聽你的聲音我想這樣子當然的這樣子的一個言論當然是不當的"},{"start":11182.068,"end":11193.193,"text":"是不當的。」署長有沒有更積極的做法?我想他這個言論我們真的深感不妥而且非常的不高興"},{"start":11201.497,"end":11224.875,"text":"我做了一些研究我們辦公室我本來今天想要去按鈴申告我覺得他還有心事證可是因為兩位當事人土民城跟曹俊傑都已經都已經過世了曹睿傑都過世了所以只能夠由家屬我們署裡面有一個這個訴訟的這個基金我希望署長"},{"start":11226.192,"end":11239.884,"text":"我們要用我們的這個基金來支持支持兩位犧牲的同仁能夠幫他們贏回這個公道部長跟署長可不可以做得到可不可以答應做得到是"},{"start":11242.896,"end":11258.24,"text":"我這個家屬就已經提起我由律師提起注釋那制式的部分那個費用律師的費用我們警政署會全力來支持是但是我也很希望很希望部長跟署長今天就發布一個強硬的這個聲明不要看到只有這個黃"},{"start":11264.801,"end":11271.944,"text":"黃偉哲黃市長在那邊替警察講話不過兩位可以請回座我要問一下我要問一下我們這個黃市長市長"},{"start":11279.231,"end":11300.787,"text":"為什麼新北地檢署會這樣馬上就給他做一個不起訴因為我今天看到這個新聞他說去年台北市大同分局的同仁因為去處理家暴的時候被當事人放狗出來咬警察但是我覺得"},{"start":11304.349,"end":11306.272,"text":"這個檢察官至少讓我覺得還有一點還有一點點這個智慧至少是要讓當事人要認罪和解才能夠獲得還起訴"},{"start":11317.15,"end":11345.218,"text":"我們新北地檢署就這樣子很輕率的就完全沒有顧慮到警察當時是冒著生命危險而且這個問題一開始就是我們法務部矯正署在外遺間條例上面的有一些疏失我們居然都沒有一種夥伴的護庭的這樣子至少要做到讓他們認罪嘛市長你覺得嗎"},{"start":11347.179,"end":11363.774,"text":"跟我們報告,我們剛剛提那一個新北地檢署那個個案,他整個的,雖然檢察官做了不起訴處分,台灣高檢署也駁回了這個在意的程序,但整個救濟程序其實還沒走完,那現在申請准許提起自訴的程序,所以那個案的狀況會怎麼樣,還要整個訴訟程序進行,還在進行當中?"},{"start":11366.916,"end":11392.73,"text":"市長因為您跟警察合作也很久了我很希望你不要讓我們其他的這個檢察官都變成法將完全沒有辦法同理我們整個團隊在這邊所做的犧牲奉獻可不可以回去也加強一下我們檢察官們的這個在職訓練一下好嗎事實上檢察官的在職訓練我們不斷的在進行是好請回來接下來我要請州選會的李竺瑋"},{"start":11402.509,"end":11418.304,"text":"主委您這段時間也辛苦了不過本會在今年上半年通過的選罷法包括我們執政黨的莊瑞雄委員他都認為這裡面是有一些有一些這個"},{"start":11420.046,"end":11434.575,"text":"好像侵害人權之虞。」他自己都這麼認為我們公開都談過的就是未來都要申請釋憲的我們工作人員的選辦法剛剛因為陳以信委員已經跟你討教過了生效的時間是"},{"start":11436.658,"end":11449.83,"text":"是今年的6月6月嘛 對不對但是我們這個王家珍就台南的這個候選人王家珍他涉及的偽造文書案法院是在什麼時候宣判緩刑 您知道嗎"},{"start":11452.518,"end":11462.262,"text":"確實的時間我並不清楚沒關係是今年3月啦今年3月所以王家珍其實剛剛那個陳以信也提過了他沒有辦法預見他這個選擇他的選擇不管是選擇一顆髮型一顆髮型馬上就執行完畢了跟他選擇緩刑會有這樣天差地別甚至於影響到他在憲法保障的一個參政權所以"},{"start":11480.308,"end":11491.008,"text":"所以我們當然也想要了解一下我們州選會他如果在這個案子上面你們會有怎麼樣的態度呢"},{"start":11492.914,"end":11517.33,"text":"處理上對於他的身份具不具備候選人資格的能不能預知一下謝謝委員我想我們審查候選人的消極資格那當然是影響非常重大的到底這個候選人有沒有參與選舉的資格這個不是說我們能夠有什麼裁量而是完全必須要嚴格的遵守選罷法的規定"},{"start":11519.071,"end":11541.923,"text":"那選報法關於消極資格最主要規定的條文就在26條根據26條第9款的規定就是你雖然所犯的罪不是一款到六款一款到六款以外的罪但是已經經過法院的判決有期徒刑以上的刑確定了那被宣告緩刑"},{"start":11542.643,"end":11565.793,"text":"或者還沒有執行執行未必行刑權消滅時效等等的情況之下他就不具備參選的資格所以你認為他是不具備參選資格我只是在重複法律的規定是法律規定但是我們如果看到這個法很明顯的有違憲之餘的話難道我們行政機關按照我們釋字的第一"},{"start":11571.045,"end":11593.307,"text":"525號其實我們行政機關是有義務來做一些解釋或者一個裁量不是嗎我們選務機關是依法行政辦理選務完全是要有法律的根據尤其選舉是競爭非常激烈的一個政治的活動所以我們必須要嚴格的遵守法律的規定不能有任何的閃失"},{"start":11594.844,"end":11610.608,"text":"主委因為您當過法官在這方面你是專業的法律人就我一個半桶水的我都會認為說法律上面應該要有一個信賴保護原則的那在這部分當然我剛剛聽到您的確也講了說你們12月15號會有委員會來做決定要審定對不對"},{"start":11618.71,"end":11623.078,"text":"但是你開口閉口都是要以現行的法律的規定依法來審定"},{"start":11627.85,"end":11629.731,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":11650.396,"end":11671.278,"text":"包括上下客、貨、違規、臨停以及騎樓停車都規定要祭典但是因為計程車貨運駕駛的陳情交通部在11月9日宣布暫緩實施交通違規祭典"},{"start":11673.629,"end":11699.12,"text":"也就是說當你們如果看到的看到說這個非常明顯的這是可能侵害我們國人的一個參政權有違憲之餘而且可能他現在也要申請但是要申請釋憲可能需要法官我們看到王家珍他已經在申請他的司法救濟了我覺得我覺得"},{"start":11702.082,"end":11704.724,"text":"中選會在有這麼明確的這個違憲之餘的時候你們在15日的這個委員會應該要考慮大法官解釋的意旨"},{"start":11717.276,"end":11743.614,"text":"要保障人權最簡單的且不違憲違法的做法就是你們透過職權解釋法律認定基於不溯及既往以及信賴保護原則凡是所有在新法生效日前就已經宣告緩刑仍在進行中者應該還是要承認他具有參選的資格"},{"start":11745.885,"end":11773.942,"text":"各方的意見我們在委員會裡面都會充分的討論都會充分討論都會充分討論但是最終最終我們就是嚴格遵照法律的規定是 但是本席剛剛也已經跟您提出來了交通部對於我們現行剛剛修過的法律他們覺得中間有不愛難行嘛所以我就知道因為您會說經過法律的授權有定定實施的日期"},{"start":11774.83,"end":11790.795,"text":"他已經定定是6月31日開始我們並沒有我們的選罷法並沒有這個規定他6月31日已經在施行中他都還可以暫緩了那我們這個中選會仍然就是執意的就用這樣子我不是執意我守法"},{"start":11792.416,"end":11818.553,"text":"但是我們法律上面其實如果違反憲法的話我覺得憲法應該要高於法律之上所以在這部分本身還是覺得非常可惜因為我不希望我不希望是人家還是會去惡意的去解讀說中選會是成為政治的工具因為我知道大家都很努力我想這個嚴重的誤會"},{"start":11822.196,"end":11834.264,"text":"還是請你們能夠恪守恪守這個法律授予你們這個行政材料也好或者是在解釋上面的權利那切記我們在那個事件的525謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":11850.888,"end":11853.469,"text":"接下來請李德維委員質詢好謝謝主席主席麻煩內政部林部長、中選會李主委今天法務部是黃長赤嗎還是黃長赤好那就麻煩"},{"start":11872.762,"end":11892.531,"text":"林部長、李主委、黃承次是委員好好來部長請教一下當然我們正副總統選舉辦理法20條規定在中華民國自由地區連續居住6個月以上而且涉及15年以上的選舉人年滿40歲可以成為總統副總統的候選人請教一下"},{"start":11893.411,"end":11909.682,"text":"這個部分當然內政部或者是中選會可以回答一下我們現在執政黨的副總統參選人蕭美琴女士她何時在台灣涉及的我們先不談國籍我們講戶籍先講戶籍你們有資料嗎請護證師來回答好護證師報告委員我們有查過他的戶籍資料他是"},{"start":11925.355,"end":11934.284,"text":"好來91年註冊戶籍所以在91年以前他在中華民國台灣地區是沒有戶籍的是這個意思嗎對不對"},{"start":11936.597,"end":11961.847,"text":"按照移民法的規定具有中華民國國籍的人他有兩種身份一個是有戶籍的國民一種是無戶籍的國民所以他真正申請戶籍是2002年對不對所以在2002年以前他沒有申請過那可不可以請教按照我們蕭副總統參選人的字數裡面他已經講到一個問題"},{"start":11962.867,"end":11986.205,"text":"他說他為了要申請中華民國的國籍不管是國籍或戶籍幾乎跑斷腿可不可以請教一下在這個部分裡面今天外交部是不是又來到底是既然現在內政部說他自然就有國籍那為什麼他會因為申請國籍而跑斷腿請問內政部有沒有調查或者外交部當時誰拒絕了他"},{"start":11988.547,"end":12010.505,"text":"因為我們在這部分裡面我們可以看到1993年民國82年蕭美琴女士就擔任呂秀蓮辦公室的實習助理在1995年就民國84年開始是民主進步黨駐美代表處的執行長到1996年開始是民進黨中央黨部國際事務部的副主任"},{"start":12012.671,"end":12040.89,"text":"應該這樣講他當時都沒有申請中華民國台灣的戶籍雖然你說他有國籍但是他都沒有申請好重點來了他說他申請國籍不管國籍或戶籍他現在2002他申請了戶籍因為你說他有國籍本期想請教的是在這裡面到底是哪個單位讓他跑斷腿是你外交部不願意辦"},{"start":12041.97,"end":12049.277,"text":"還是內政部要負責還是台北市哪個互證事務所拒絕他可以講出來嗎要不要講來"},{"start":12053.916,"end":12072.596,"text":"我想不是很清楚那個時候這個蕭瑋琴女士她辦所謂的這些相關的這個問題不曉得那個情境是怎麼樣子不過這個跟她的國旗基本上是這個我們在法律上基本上是沒有關係來部長我知道你當然會這樣回答"},{"start":12074.798,"end":12095.055,"text":"但是現在蕭美琴女士既然講她當時為了不管是戶籍或國籍啦她是跑斷腿了所以本席現在要求內政部也好外交部也好好好的去清查到底當時是誰讓她跑斷腿既然她有國籍為什麼不能申請戶籍"},{"start":12096.946,"end":12115.124,"text":"或者為什麼他沒有申請戶籍那當然是他的問題但重點是他講了他跑斷腿最後他是要想要國籍來參選立委這是他講的所以這個部分來馬來西亞部長我知道你現在答不出來但是可不可以請您帶回去瞭解一下"},{"start":12116.937,"end":12145.05,"text":"當時他為什麼需要跑斷腿甚至於參選立法委員才能夠來申請戶籍所以他特別講喔您可以去看他說他2002他當選了立委然後他非常開心的去放棄美國籍申請中華民國的國籍他認為他終於回家了好 這也不重要因為你們現在講的是他申請了戶籍他本來就有國籍重點"},{"start":12145.99,"end":12157.085,"text":"一句話就是當時到底是哪個單位讓他這個有國籍的人不能申請或者讓他跑斷腿去申請戶籍這個政績只能要嘴久"},{"start":12162.719,"end":12185.77,"text":"我想這個這麼多年來應該我們的互證機關或者相關機關的服務應該是增進了不過你剛剛提到那個跟國籍其實基本上沒有沒有關係第二個申請戶籍那個時候其實就是到他戶籍要申請的所在地的這個互證機關去做申請所以這個部分拜託內政部還有互證師可以去了解一下"},{"start":12188.746,"end":12215.271,"text":"當時這2002年以前我們當時的小美琴女士她跑斷腿去申請但是不得其門而入到底發生了什麼事您可以去調查嗎?願意嗎?不過委員會跟你報告這個應該跟因為來來來我講這個非常非常重要部長部長我講這個非常重要為什麼?因為這個牽扯到所有以後在國外出生的"},{"start":12216.431,"end":12231.077,"text":"中華民國國民來申請戶籍他要需要跑斷腿跟蕭美琴一樣的話本席不能接受這不是蕭美琴一個人的問題是所有人的問題"},{"start":12232.759,"end":12262.239,"text":"他31歲以前他沒有申請中華民國的戶籍你雖然說他有他自然就是中華民國有他的國籍但他沒有申請所以他沒有身分證他沒有中華民國的護照這一點外交部是不是因為你沒有戶籍但是應該是沒有中華民國的護照吧所以這個部分裡面不只是他一個人的問題我們現在希望保障的是所有中華民國的國民以後在國外出生"},{"start":12263.159,"end":12284.802,"text":"他都不需要跑斷腿來申請戶籍岡委報告現在我們所有的戶政機關現在都已經全國連線所以現在你不需要跑到這個所謂的所在地其實在任何一個戶政機關透過我們相關的一個申請程序當然如果是國外回來的話"},{"start":12285.843,"end":12297.195,"text":"還要經過我們移民機關那現在因為全部都已經全部所有的戶所都全部連線了那以前是並沒有所以這一點跟你做說明好 了解來 謝謝部長"},{"start":12298.53,"end":12321.24,"text":"那另外再請教一下來這個法務部長請教一下按照緩刑制度的立法理由說明是惡性輕微的被告或偶發犯出犯改過自新而設而且憲法法庭也解釋臺灣高等法院108年度抗治第890號的裁定要旨也認為緩刑是一個寬點"},{"start":12323.572,"end":12328.003,"text":"請問次長 這是寬點 被告也就是受刑人能夠主動放棄緩刑嗎"},{"start":12330.144,"end":12357.73,"text":"公務員辦法這是個判決他沒有辦法放棄的問題公務員辦法26條原來規定這些相關您都一定非常清楚但是最後一句話但受緩刑宣告者不在此限那今年當然這個我們立法院做相關的這個修訂行政院提出來的這個部分今年6月工作人員辦法修正所以在這個部分裡面"},{"start":12358.77,"end":12382.25,"text":"當然在緩刑期間或者是刑刑權因失效的消滅不得登記為候選人請到次長受緩刑不得參選這個在憲法保障我們剛剛前面講到的東西這個人民的參政權您覺得有疑義嗎我們當然今天不只是王家珍這個案"},{"start":12383.837,"end":12397.848,"text":"各位報告因為這個不是選務不是法務部主管而且這個法規也不是本部主管法規那本部當然尊重主管機關及立法的形成所以這部分本部沒有辦法有所評論那本市有一個問題"},{"start":12399.309,"end":12415.656,"text":"法務部在這部分願意去研究它的釋法性是不是願意來提出來相關大法官來釋憲法務部的立場跟我們報告這個主管法規的主管機關他如果有異議的話按照我們憲法送人法他是有權利可以做相關的權利當然主管機關是中選會"},{"start":12417.537,"end":12442.068,"text":"有法律上的意見本部當作全中華民國的法律意見主管機關我們可以提供相關的意見諮詢這是沒有問題所以這個部分當然也請法務部來研究一下好不好來主委請教一下要不然來換市長請教主委好了主委這個部分您覺得勒有沒有必要大法官再來研究一下"},{"start":12443.578,"end":12456.015,"text":"中選會的立場我們在候選人資格審定的時候完全是根據選罷法的規定來辦理但是你們也是當時修法的主管機關嘛這個條文其實當時在這個地方"},{"start":12459.52,"end":12485.442,"text":"這樣講不好意思不只我們國民黨其實民進黨也有很多意見但到後來朝野協商全部被一腳踹翻回到原點按照行政院版本就全部回來了但現在的確發生了問題所以中選會基於主管機關的這一個部分願不願意來思考可以請大法官再來做解釋因為現在是受緩刑的問題"},{"start":12487.734,"end":12503.282,"text":"我們作為這個選罷法的執行機關是按照大院所通過的選罷法的規定嚴格的來執行是好來主委您自己也法律人"},{"start":12504.679,"end":12522.516,"text":"犯下各式各樣的重罪執行以後都可以參選但是現在的輕罪連緩刑就是所謂的寬點都不能參選這真的其實在公平正義上真的有一些問題所以本席真的建議要來救濟最後一個問題來不好意思因為時間到了最後一個問題"},{"start":12526.019,"end":12540.662,"text":"那個高雄市政風處在茶會的時候當然現在有舉報啊就是劉秀鳳理事長甲介舉辦七十大之後民意為這個總統參選來助選啊那請教法務部好了這個法務部"},{"start":12542.224,"end":12559.82,"text":"市長有這件事嗎?你們有接到相關的情資嗎?跟我們報告那政風處他我們檢察官在查查會選的時候是民眾的檢舉告發也好或來自政府部門的相關的說證也好他都會匯集到我們檢察機關來做一個請示的研判嗯"},{"start":12560.461,"end":12579.656,"text":"好所以這件事情當然現在媒體也有報導的不小那所以高雄市增豐處真的有有這相關的一個情資是這個意思嗎那事實上高雄地檢營就這個情資他也分案在處理了在處理了是好當然在這部分裡面這個市長您也當然這"},{"start":12581.357,"end":12604.016,"text":"檢察官的權責但是在這部分裡面當然各個政黨尤其是政黨的立委其實也在相關參與宴會的現身所以在這部分裡面當然請這個這個真的要好好的來做調查千萬不要我們當然勿枉勿縱但是也不要讓人覺得"},{"start":12606.358,"end":12622.33,"text":"這裡面有什麼因人而異或者因政黨而異的事情發生我覺得都是大家不樂見我不會那檢察官會按照收集來請示他再做自己個案再做研判好 了解 謝謝謝謝主席謝謝接下來請吳立華委員質詢"},{"start":12637.669,"end":12654.935,"text":"謝謝主席,有請中選會、原民會、法務部,謝謝李主委、宜將主委,還有林部長請法務部,不好意思,林部長不用,黃次長請委員好"},{"start":12659.875,"end":12686.086,"text":"好 主委好今天內政委員會特別安排行政中立的專報我們也都知道公務人員行政中立法的主管機關應該是在權序部那因為今天也沒有來備訓所以我就大概問我們三個部會那首先我想要請教一下中選會李主委請您看一下"},{"start":12687.745,"end":12709.665,"text":"因為在上上個禮拜同樣的時間同樣的地點在我質詢之後聽說有幾位委員就原民會辦的一個叫文化健康站的實施計畫到底有沒有行政中立的問題做了一番質詢討論所以我在這邊請教一下李主委"},{"start":12710.866,"end":12737.416,"text":"這個文件站它的主辦機關是原民會承辦的機關是縣市政府協辦區公所、鄉公所那麼執行的單位其實是原民團體也就是所謂的協會那這個協會呢它會聘僱一些人員就是所謂的造福人員好 那我請教一下李主委這一些被聘僱的造福員"},{"start":12738.496,"end":12742.778,"text":"他們適用或準用公務人員行政中立法嗎?跟委員報告中選會針對我們選務工作人員行政中立我們是由所以我說今天選區部門來的對於其他機關的人員這部分因為不是我們執掌範圍之內我們尊重全職機關的處理"},{"start":12764.056,"end":12773.029,"text":"好來那請教一下原民會主委請教主委齁文件站的造福員適用或准用公務人員行政中立法嗎"},{"start":12774.717,"end":12800.614,"text":"因為趙輔演是正如剛剛委員所提到的他是文件站執行單位禁用的人員所以對顏明慧來講這個不是機關的聘用人員他是一個民間人員因為有人很關心一而再再而三的諮詢所以我也知道你們在有委員質詢關心之後呢今年的9月以及上一次質詢完的隔天隔一個禮拜你們也兩度"},{"start":12805.097,"end":12822.602,"text":"發函給縣市政府以及文件站。」我看到你們裡面的這些內容今天在專報裡面也有寫到就是希望說避免於開站的期間為特定公職候選人公開站開或協助拜票"},{"start":12823.382,"end":12845.607,"text":"也不應以文件站的名義帶長者去做候選人的競選活動然後非上班時間你們也要求應避免穿著文件站的背心去參加這些活動好 那我請教一下既然有人關心我相信你們應該有去查了有沒有查有沒有查上次提到的那種情形"},{"start":12852.494,"end":12879.992,"text":"這如剛剛委員提到就是我們已經兩度發函9月13號跟11月28號按照相關的法律的規範那有沒有去查因為我記得那位委員他有要求要查目前我們沒有收到任何的案子所以沒有查到沒有查到沒有查到那我們來看一下因為我是不會做這種事雖然我被指控但是我們看一下一段影片因為這是公開的影片"},{"start":12881.673,"end":12907.108,"text":"就是那一位委員主委這是文健站吧他帶著另外一位平地原住民候選人也公開穿著他候選人背心"},{"start":12913.832,"end":12926.075,"text":"他說我要選立委了我都是到文健站各地去報票這是他說出來的話我們再看下一個都是他質詢前的一個禮拜好"},{"start":12941.792,"end":12964.114,"text":"我要說的是我們也沒有人特別去在意這件事為什麼因為關懷長者我們也很高興而且真的要去追究他是不是公務人員行政中立法說實在你們也回答不出來也沒有辦法就辦那有沒有違反你們一而再再而三講的規定好 真的違反"},{"start":12964.835,"end":12979.811,"text":"我相信你們的做法也就是進行糾舉之後有可能這個協會可能就列入不適合的辦理單位好但是我要說的是多少年來像我們繼續看這是去年扶植的這些候選人你看"},{"start":12980.532,"end":12997.9,"text":"大每一個文件站發快篩長年每月去發物資我們也都沒有人為什麼去講這個不會去指責因為關心老人家嘛好事嘛雖然我沒有這個能耐能力沒有這個財力廣潔善言但是我也是祝福啊"},{"start":12998.8,"end":13023.493,"text":"因為多一點人去關心老人是好事啊但是我覺得不能因為在很多的縣市暢行無阻就因為在某個縣市我就直接講了因為他也直接講了屏東縣政府要求文件在員工輔選在國會殿堂直接點名因為沒有辦法在這個縣暢行無阻"},{"start":13024.844,"end":13033.172,"text":"然後還指控直接說伍麗華跟這些員工說不支持我你們就離開就沒有工作更糟糕的是還製作影片散佈你們怎麼會容許這些行為"},{"start":13048.015,"end":13073.446,"text":"我請教一下因為他有要求調查有沒有跟屏東縣政府調查啊有沒有掌握到有沒有人指控我不支持就離開就跟各位剛才我講過就是到目前為止沒有收到任何要求調查的案子是因為是沒有的我是我的個性大家都知道我也敢拍胸脯保證我是很客氣的人"},{"start":13075.66,"end":13098.768,"text":"我們知道分寸在哪裡我不會幹這些事所以今天的備詢沒有邀請到行政中立法的主管、機關、權序部所以我覺得也沒有辦法充分討論但是最起碼我想說的是文健站的這些造福員、工作人員他不是公務人員他享有參與政治及言論的表意自由"},{"start":13100.435,"end":13114.223,"text":"這樣子去胡亂指控真的要嘛還做影片後製散布要不然他的意圖就是意圖使某人不當選要不然就是意圖使那一些族人不敢發聲"},{"start":13118.438,"end":13145.825,"text":"我不太曉得說我們是民主自由的法治國家然後一再的在國會殿堂上演這種荒唐的戲碼還要指派議員在地方的議會也要去做這樣的諮詢我覺得原民會作為原住民事務的主管機關我覺得這個部分你們也要拿出態度那我其實想要藉這個機會只是讓那些開始害怕的族人知道"},{"start":13147.216,"end":13158.218,"text":"我們的行政中立法是規範適用的是我們的公務員跟這些準用的公務員並且他有他的強度不是一般的人民啊"},{"start":13159.546,"end":13182.596,"text":"憲法保障我們很多的自由我們也有參政權、選舉權即便是一般的公務人員他也有參與政治的權利他也有表意的自由我覺得不需要做到這個樣子那我們很多的族人非常的傷心非常的難過非常的害怕不應該是這個樣子所以我在這個地方那既然是公務人員我們就來講好了我們來看一些真正的公務人員這個都是新聞隨便抓的"},{"start":13187.631,"end":13199.26,"text":"有一個市長他參加某個市府的官方活動公開說自己正在參選總統還發表選舉的語言請問一下我要問誰啊法務部有無違法"},{"start":13203.519,"end":13218.895,"text":"有提的違法是指違反行政中立法還是指為什麼各種法那行政中立法的話那就是不是本部所主管的法規所以今天就不叫行政中立的主管機關我就不懂啊我們要討論這個法結果主管機關就沒有來我就不知道怎麼問啊"},{"start":13221.967,"end":13244.473,"text":"對那如果說這是有沒有違反選罷法相關的刑罰的規定倒是個案要去判斷啦那刑罰的部分倒是法務部主管機關沒有錯那刑罰假官他就這個個案他應該會去處理好像這個案例里長出面用里民聚會的名義去借場地結果最後是辦候選人的候議員大會有沒有違法委員提的還是行政中立的問題"},{"start":13250.447,"end":13276.281,"text":"那問中選會主委他是選務工作他不是我們的選務工作人員里長他不是所以就問不出來嗎要找全序部來是嗎其他權責機關那再講一個好了那參加官方的活動然後呢搭配當選的歌曲然後在那個地方大家公務人員配合喊動算動算有沒有違反"},{"start":13281.168,"end":13307.353,"text":"大家都沒有辦法因為都不是主管機關原民會今天我們有審查原住民族工作權保障法這個目的我自己的版本就是希望增加就業的機會讓更多的人受益所以我們希望去修不要限於約聘僱五類人員那個太低了我請教一下我們希望開放所有的職缺請教一下原民會可不可行"},{"start":13309.481,"end":13331.789,"text":"這個是我們目前送代驗的一個版本就是希望我們今天能不能禁用的部分不應該只限業務人員這樣的話沒有辦法提升我們的這個收入啦因為業務人員一般的收入比較低嘛我們希望有更好的這個保障讓原住民在公部門可以工作好謝謝齁那我們都很期待今天能不能出委員會"},{"start":13334.306,"end":13355.091,"text":"希望大院支持行政院的版本那如果這個法案修法通過之後大約可以增加多少的工作機會以目前行政院的版本的話可以再增加一萬三千多個工作機會那以我們原住民的人口數來講應該是用不完吧還是不夠可以充分讓原住民在"},{"start":13356.294,"end":13382.979,"text":"公部門的就業的職務類型不是只有大部分都停留在業故人員這個地方不是只有機工工友可以在很多的各部會各地方政府裡面有更好的一個升遷的機會好 謝謝那我也想要請教一下今天要審查原住民身份法再給我一分鐘請教一下原民會因為這次憲法法庭判決出來我們也必須在這個時候去做出修法"},{"start":13384.84,"end":13404.108,"text":"這個關於原母漢父我看我們的版本也都同意了就是冠漢人父親的姓氏再加原住民的名字對不對這個以前我們無法想像的也都通過了所以我想要請教您一下因為原住民身份法它連動的就是姓名條例"},{"start":13405.626,"end":13425.478,"text":"那這個姓名條例當然主管機關是內政部可是我想要先問一下園民會你同不同意單列原住民左雲在原住民族語言發展法裡面我們已經有原住民族文字是啊是啊既然我們是國家的語言是可以單列"},{"start":13425.858,"end":13450.191,"text":"對嘛大家都這麼認為嘛國家語言發展法都出來了承認我們的文字也是文字那麼請教一下內政部齁因為我一直在講過去質詢的時候說原住民身份條例跟姓名條例齁原住民身份法跟姓名條例兩個法應該是沒有辦法脫鉤啦因為是連動我們會被影響所以我想要請教一下好最後最後齁"},{"start":13450.791,"end":13466.636,"text":"那最後這個就是姓名條例第二條我在第三會期就已經提出修法版本我希望用臺灣原住民的傳統姓名得使用羅馬拼音或原住民族文字登記不受前兩項的限制那不曉得內政部怎麼樣今天也有排這個"},{"start":13471.691,"end":13493.49,"text":"加修法再來談好不好那我就是問一下態度跟委員報告這個行政院他已經決議朝單列羅馬拼音的方式進行但是後續還要進行下一段的溝通協調那等行政院整個政策拍板定案之後我就是要這個答案行政院已經同意單列了對不對好感謝謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":13498.809,"end":13506.052,"text":"邱承遠委員不在陳婉蕙委員不在陳亭飛委員不在劉世芳委員不在楊瓊英委員不在林文瑞委員不在廖婉如委員不在現在請陳焦華委員質詢"},{"start":13534.388,"end":13536.369,"text":"謝謝召委請內政部長林部長請委員好部長好部長我今天還是跟上次有質詢過的一個議題要來請教部長就是有關我們土地建界"},{"start":13557.028,"end":13578.224,"text":"那土地間界的話呢有一個案子因為已經訴訟然後有超過10年就是竹北的一個地震的案子那這個案子呢後來在上上禮拜兼委兼委有跟本席來"},{"start":13580.593,"end":13594.463,"text":"當面有跟他說明說明之後其中一個很主要的爭議就是在陳青仁蓋房子前到底有沒有見解那你看到這個圖是"},{"start":13595.697,"end":13624.922,"text":"房子蓋好之後去做保存登記的見解做保存登記的見解新建之前有沒有見解因為地政這邊給法院的資料是蓋房子之前沒有見解但是提出的一些資料監委看了以後有蓋房子之前"},{"start":13626.018,"end":13651.792,"text":"包括有90年的間接資料還有這個91年的間接資料那這些資料就是怎麼講呢我要跟部長詢問的因為現在給法院的證據也是地政給的然後呢如果地政這邊有不當的這個證詞好像"},{"start":13654.929,"end":13681.926,"text":"部長你現在看到這個案子就是竹北地震一直告訴法院說當事人沒有見解但是在蓋房子之前有90年有89年都有見解資料然後跟蓋好房子的92年的見解資料都一樣那因為就是如果地震沒有給法院正確的資料包括沒有給"},{"start":13684.068,"end":13709.339,"text":"監察院正確的資料導致我們澄清人的權益受損那內政部我們現在的機制土地建界的機制重測或者是圖解、數值化這些問題都很容易造成爭議所以就會訴訟所以本席接到非常多的澄清案例那我是想問部長這個要怎麼來解決"},{"start":13713.188,"end":13734.918,"text":"假如地政機單位求援兼裁判然後錯誤的證詞會讓我們澄清人的權益嚴重受損那我剛剛講的這個案子的確就是的確就是因為澄清人房子面臨被拆嘛那現在監察院監委願意重新調查所以本席是認為"},{"start":13739.243,"end":13765.519,"text":"當一個受害者他沒有能力去表達正確的資訊還有地政機關不願意提供資料的時候這個間接是會造成很多不幸比如說重測之後整個地界改了然後重測的時候沒有通知多數的人去止戒"},{"start":13766.826,"end":13792.471,"text":"而是由地政機關去協助紫界的時候的確很多地界都被改了那被改的時候有些人地就多了有些人地就少了那爭議就一直產生然後就是法院訴訟就案子這種案子就變了很多那我要講說這樣子的情況我們在紫界的時候要怎麼去修正去檢討這個問題"},{"start":13797.754,"end":13815.843,"text":"非常謝謝委員因為這個個案我不是非常的清楚不過第幾上面的一個偏差是的確是有的因為這個技術的因素或者這個年代登記的這個因素"},{"start":13817.324,"end":13834.617,"text":"這個狀況是有的那不過你剛剛特別提到這個球員兼裁判或是說我們的地政人員他不願意提供正確的資料這個應該是不容許的我們地政人員應該是必須要提供正確的資料才對"},{"start":13836.319,"end":13851.792,"text":"不過你剛剛提到的有好幾個問題包括說他之前是不是有間接然後之後是有偏移的狀況這可能都會分涉到不同層次的問題"},{"start":13853.153,"end":13878.992,"text":"那部長你剛剛說的是不允許那如果說我們怎麼樣有一個防避的機制畢竟建界也是地政機關法院作證也是地政機關那他當然不會承認他有任何疏失還有剛剛說的紙借的部分紙借的部分現在很多數像彰化就有一個案例二水那邊"},{"start":13880.714,"end":13882.295,"text":"第16任總統選舉委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":13901.704,"end":13916.865,"text":"去敷衍、去閃躲不願意面對事實那另外在重測的時候怎麼去修這個相關的作業指引或者是辦法就是你的指界應該至少要一半以上"},{"start":13917.865,"end":13941.797,"text":"那你才能夠進行重測不然你這樣的重測結果等於會造成另外一個大災難是 謝謝委員我想那個地震的測量還有它的指界其實我們地震機關都有相關規定因為地震師沒有到我知道我是不是我也再請地震師再跟你做報告那另外你剛剛特別提到說是不是有相關的一個規定或者是說指引需要來做修正"},{"start":13941.957,"end":13942.757,"text":"羅明財、羅明財委員不在"},{"start":13961.38,"end":13987.763,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢,詢答結束委員林文瑞、陳婉蕙、邱承元所提書面質詢列入記錄、刊登公報書面質詢及位及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會專題報告詢答結束只與該報告有關的人員可以先席"},{"start":13988.644,"end":13994.116,"text":"先行離席我們現在休息30分鐘用餐休息後繼續開會審查法案"},{"start":14161.131,"end":14164.725,"text":"全國各地各地各地各地各地各地各地各地"},{"start":14260.865,"end":14269.385,"text":"不用 那還有一份啊一個是工作那前面還有兩份"},{"start":16267.182,"end":16279.682,"text":"報告委員會現在進行法案審查原住民身份法審查原住民身份法請先讀討論事項一所有條文請先讀"},{"start":16282.233,"end":16305.535,"text":"本月內政委員會於111年5月9日召開第10屆第5會期第16次全體委員會議審查委員鄭天才等16人提案及委員劉兆豪等18人提案該二案之條文以及委員鄭天才修正動議二案及委員廖國棟所提修正動議均已宣讀完畢現在宣讀另外6個案子第一條"},{"start":16307.817,"end":16324.571,"text":"第一條行政院提案刪除第二項其餘同線型條文第二條行政院提案同線型條文委員郭國文等16任提案第一項序文在平地原住民後面增訂及評普原住民文字"},{"start":16325.151,"end":16347.792,"text":"令增訂第三款文字為三平埔原住民本人或直系血親尊親屬於臺灣光復前緣及在平地行政區域內且戶口調查部登記屬於原住民者增訂第二項及第三項及第四項分別為因前項規定認定原住民身份者其直系血親被親屬因依本法其他規定認定其原住民身份"},{"start":16348.252,"end":16362.892,"text":"第一項第三款評普原住民族群身份認定得依其語言、文化、風俗與記憶保存完整性分別認定之第一項第三款評普原住民族權利利益法律定之其餘同性行條文委員張宏祿等20人提案"},{"start":16363.553,"end":16391.455,"text":"增訂第一項第三款文字為三、其他原住民舉凡其民族語言習俗傳統等文化特徵至今仍然存續其成員仍維持族群認同且有客觀歷史記錄可記之其他臺灣南島與新民族並經其民族意願申請核定通過者為原住民族增訂第二項文字為前項所稱其他原住民之保障應另以法律定之不是用山地原住民及平地原住民之相關規定其與同線性條文"},{"start":16392.972,"end":16415.653,"text":"行政院提案刪除性行法第3條第3條行政院提案性行法第4條一列必修正為復活母為原住民且符合下列各款規定之一者得申請取得原住民身份一、取用復活母所屬原住民族之傳統名字二、取用漢人姓名必以原住民族文字並列復活母所屬原住民族之傳統名字"},{"start":16416.153,"end":16429.72,"text":"三從具原住民身份之父或母之姓因前項第二款規定取得原住民身份者其子女從其姓者應依同款規定取得原住民身份委員鄭天才等18人提案修正進行第4條"},{"start":16431.161,"end":16450.63,"text":"第2項後段增訂或從未具原住民身份之父或母之姓並列登記傳統名字之羅馬拼音者文字其餘同性性條文委員蔡適應的25人提案修正性行法第4條第1項修正為原住民之子女取得原住民身份第4條"},{"start":16452.372,"end":16474.973,"text":"行政院提案新刑法第5條一列並刪除第一項第二項一列第一項並修正為非原住民經年滿40歲且無子女之原住民雙親共同收養且符合下列各款規定者得申請取得原住民身份一被收養時未滿7歲二取用或以原住民族文字並列收養者之一所屬原住民族之傳統名字"},{"start":16475.814,"end":16490.514,"text":"會從收養者之一之姓第三項一列第二項並著作文字修正第四項刪除第五條行政院提案性行法第九條一列第一項修正為原住民有項列情形之一者喪失原住民身份"},{"start":16490.994,"end":16515.042,"text":"一、一前兩條規定取得原住民身份後應變更姓名、志位符合各該規定二、一前條規定取得原住民身份後終止收養關係三、成年後申請放棄原住民身份四、依本法中華民國110年1月27日修正施行前至第四條第三項規定取得原住民身份未於本法《圈年圈日圈日修正》條文施行之日起算"},{"start":16515.942,"end":16537.541,"text":"二年內取用或以原住民族文字並列原住民父母所屬原住民族之傳統名字或從原住民父母之姓第二項修正為依前項第三款規定喪失原住民身份且無同項第一款或第二款規定侵蝕者的申請回復原住民身份其回復以一次為限第三項增列原因款次"},{"start":16539.062,"end":16554.367,"text":"委員、成名人等16人提案修正性行法第9條將第一項第三款年滿20歲諸文字修正人年滿18歲其餘同性行條文行政院提案性行法第6條刪除"},{"start":16556.294,"end":16572.093,"text":"第6條性行法第7條一列第一項修正為為取得原住民身份當事人得申請取用或以原住民族文字並列原住民族傳統名字或從具原住民身份之父或母之姓當事人未成年時由法定代理人與書面約定申請成年後"},{"start":16573.695,"end":16592.478,"text":"依個人意願申請不受民法第1059條第1項第4項、第1078條第1項第2項及姓名條例第1條第2項規定之限制第2項三除,原第3項一列第2項並將前段文字修正為依前項規定申請取得原住民身份除出生登記外"},{"start":16594.113,"end":16613.115,"text":"委員蔡氏應的25人提案修正縣刑法第7條第一項將第2條第2項第4條第2項修正為第4條其餘同縣刑條文第7條行政院提案縣刑法第8條一列第一項修正援引條次並著作文字修正第二項刪除"},{"start":16614.266,"end":16630.655,"text":"委員蔡適應的25人提案修正《憲刑法》第8條第一項將第4條第二項修正為第4條其餘同憲刑條文第8條行政院提案《憲刑法》第10條亦一列未容未修正"},{"start":16631.897,"end":16652.45,"text":"增訂第8條之一委員鄭天才等18人提案增訂第8條之一文字為符合第2條、第4條或第6條規定取得原住民身份之要件但於申請取得原住民身份前被收養者與收養關係程序中得依第4條、第6條及第7條規定申請取得原住民身份不受民法第1078條規定之限制"},{"start":16654.992,"end":16671.288,"text":"第9條徵定第一項文字為原住民因其父或母之所屬、民族登記其民族別、其原住民族傳統名字或從姓、英語與其登記之民族別相關聯"},{"start":16672.589,"end":16697.062,"text":"先行法第11條第二項一列第二項必修正為前項原住民民族別之認定登記變更及其他相關事項之辦法由中央原住民族主管機關定職第10條行政院提案先行法第11條一列第一項未修正第二項刪除第11條行政院提案先行法第12條一列將前段遺漏文字修正為脫漏後段"},{"start":16698.636,"end":16708.805,"text":"為更正之登記修正為為撤銷或更正之登記第12條行政院提案憲憲法第13條一列並修正為本法自公布若施行宣讀完畢"},{"start":16723.915,"end":16732.806,"text":"本次會議法案審查順序依議程排列之順序進行我們現在開始審查"},{"start":16813.9,"end":16831.593,"text":"好這個原住民身份法這個修正條文好然後那個第一條第一條各位有沒有意見行政院版的第一條沒有啦沒有啦好那個第二條"},{"start":16838.451,"end":16858.395,"text":"第一條照行政院版條文通過有沒有問題沒有好然後第二條這個行政院版還有郭文的還有委員張宏祿就這樣"},{"start":16864.086,"end":16867.773,"text":"參考一下看我的條文可不可以啊"},{"start":16879.387,"end":16892.198,"text":"行政院列在第二階段因為這次處理主要是針對第一階段的憲法判決就聽你的"},{"start":16898.147,"end":16922.044,"text":"對第二階段那是第二階段對對那是三年內了好那就照行政院版條文通過那個麥克風這邊這邊都有麥克風你是針對哪一條"},{"start":16927.441,"end":16949.573,"text":"主席、司法院、國安省法官這邊提醒一下就是說第二條部分的話這個部分有經過那個憲判自17號有宣告說這個沒有考慮到其他的原住民的就是其他南島語系的原住民的這樣的一個劃分就是說這個部分可能就是"},{"start":16950.754,"end":16974.924,"text":"第二條目前就行政院是沒有修正那當然憲法法庭的判決指出說這部分要嘛是用修法要嘛是用那個另行立法的方式來處理那所以說這部分不知道說主管機關這邊是不是要用另行立新法的方式來處理其他的原住民別這樣子不是啊"},{"start":16977.525,"end":16993.713,"text":"我講一下我講一下可能剛才講得不夠清楚了我現在講憲法判決有兩個對不對今天要處理的就是第一個憲法判決要處理的你剛講的那個第二個判決"},{"start":16996.283,"end":16998.425,"text":"行政院列委第二階段審查"},{"start":17017.965,"end":17036.934,"text":"好好可以好好那就第二條就照行政院提案通過好我們看一下第4頁第4頁"},{"start":17044.106,"end":17059.085,"text":"現行條件是原住民與非原住民結婚除第9條另有規定外原住民身份不上司非原住民不起得原住民身份這個要不要說要不說明一下嗯"},{"start":17066.042,"end":17087.293,"text":"那這部分因為我們有關那個原住民身份善施的規定是已經有把它整理成一個條文了所以它原來的這個部分第三條的部分如果說它不符合那個善施原住民身份的條件它當然就不善施所以它其實並到另外一個條文去已經做處理了各位有沒有意見沒有意見都還有現行"},{"start":17089.35,"end":17111.265,"text":"現行原住民身份法第3條就刪除就照行政院要刪除行政院版的第3條還有本席鄭天才史拉高照的第4條還有蔡司應等25人提案的第4條"},{"start":17115.739,"end":17133.295,"text":"這個部分這個我在質詢的時候有特別提到現行的條文原住民以原住民結婚守身之利取得原住民身份然後第二項原住民以非原住民結婚守身之利"},{"start":17134.175,"end":17161.924,"text":"從具原住民身份之父或母之姓或原住民傳統名職者取得原住民身份不是得取得所以這個部分行政院版的第三條的第一項的第二行的字得申請取得原住民身份是不是我們比照這個線型的條文得申請這三個字就不用"},{"start":17162.944,"end":17170.496,"text":"然後這個就這個而已這裡而已嘛是不是也不是用這個這個嘛好因為這個部分這個會跟我們"},{"start":17176.971,"end":17202.366,"text":"憲法的判決跟司法院釋制第28號尤其是憲法的判決有會嚴重的那個……雖然這個手續上是一樣但是在文字上不要被認為說是倒退"},{"start":17203.466,"end":17231.005,"text":"所以這個部分我們只是把原來的條文的取得原住民身份維持其他的就照你們的條文文字可以嗎因為這個部分其實就目前的申請就取得原住民身份的實務上雖然說我們第4條是規定說是取得原住民身份但它其實還是要經過申請的程序所以院辦把這個程序就寫明在這個條文裡面"},{"start":17231.576,"end":17245.004,"text":"所以那個反正不影響嘛我們就維持現行的文字起得原住民身份就得起得這三個字刪除其他的就照行政院版的這樣也可以吧就是那個"},{"start":17252.83,"end":17274.828,"text":"得申請復活母為原住民且符合校內各種固定之一證取得原住民身份我再跟委員說明一下原來的第4條跟第3條最大的差別是因為我們把"},{"start":17275.929,"end":17281.171,"text":"這部分得申請後會讓兩個都可以來申請的意思因為第3條現在是只是講副或某原住民所以"},{"start":17299.798,"end":17324.916,"text":"也許這個跟飛眼通婚的這些小孩子他不見得會願意讓他的小孩子取得原住民身份所以說我們是說開申請的意思那這樣那如果是這樣的話那原來的原住民與原住民結婚所生之女那怎麼沒有條文啊"},{"start":17327.082,"end":17334.584,"text":"原住民及原住民結婚所生子女及原住民及非原住民結婚所生子女及非原住民結婚所生子女"},{"start":17352.03,"end":17380.46,"text":"給不同的申請條件他認為說這個部分有違反平等權的原則所以我們後來就是把這兩種類型都給它整合在一起而且要取得原住民身份的條件都一樣所以現在那個主委得申請這三個字拿掉完全不受影響第一個啟用父或母所屬原住民組織傳的名字"},{"start":17388.646,"end":17397.054,"text":"其用漢人姓名並以原住民族文字並列父或母所屬原住民族之傳統名字。從即原住民身份之父或母之姓"},{"start":17407.913,"end":17420.514,"text":"這個就是你回到原來的這個原住民與原住民結婚所生的也包含在這裡面嘛對不對沒有錯吧我講的沒有錯吧所以那個得起得得申請這三個字"},{"start":17423.154,"end":17448.932,"text":"主席主席我想請問一下第三條第一項的這三款一、二、三款我想問一下原民會這三款就一定還是得要申請才能夠取得對不對你還是必須要經過申請的這個手續嘛對不對不是說我不申請我自然就取得"},{"start":17449.773,"end":17474.9,"text":"是嗎?這三款取得的身份證一定要經過申請這個程序嗎?對啊,主席這個都一定要申請啊,你才有取得這個身份證。他說,現行的條文,我們先看現行的條文。原住民與原住民結婚所生子女取得原住民身份。他說,不是不是不是,他說這個還是要申請。"},{"start":17477.621,"end":17503.803,"text":"還是要申請在他們的不是不是你先聽我講本來是因啦但是他們在副級副級副政資律副政的實際作業上還是要寫那個申請表啦所以既然還是要寫申請表得起的那三個字就可以不用還是要寫申請表內政部表示要意見是不是這樣是不是這得起的三個字拿掉也無妨嘛"},{"start":17504.912,"end":17508.936,"text":"但是你放在這邊會被人家不知道的人會認為我們倒退啊嗯"},{"start":17513.39,"end":17541.944,"text":"他本來就按照現行的那個附籍的申請登記還是要寫還是要寫申請表嘛所以你當時你現在把文字加上去會被認為倒退啦這個是桿子桿子就法律的用詞上是一個一個這樣的一個狀況把得申請三個字就就作業上沒有影響啦內政部沒有影響嘛沒有影響啦"},{"start":17543.243,"end":17571.149,"text":"你不要...法律人不要聽他的法律人他會無所霸道法律人要聽我的我是尊重你好不好你不要真的以為以為那個你以為政電宅很專業沒有這部分他都問我偷偷問我的那功力...他功力還不夠好不好好 我們就這樣齁把得申請三個字拿掉齁你看他們沒問題了對對對修正通過了齁好主席主席"},{"start":17576.679,"end":17595.752,"text":"主席還有司法院這邊再表示一下意見針對第三條的部分的話我們是認為說還是要寫清楚就是得申請會比較好啦因為其實就算它有符合那三款的要件但是到底有沒有符合基本上"},{"start":17596.292,"end":17618.732,"text":"還是要經過行政機關經過申請一個審核的程序然後呢假如不管是準不準許甚至不準許的話經過申請的程序然後給他駁回他事後才有救濟的機會不然的話沒有講說得申請那事後到底要怎麼審查這個會影響到事後的那個救濟的程序是怎麼樣司法院"},{"start":17620.093,"end":17647.11,"text":"這個不是新的條文啊原來的條文就是不用得申請這三個字啊從以前到現在從原住民身份認定標準到現在一直都是這樣啊只不過是他們在戶籍這個手續上他還是要寫申請表我們也沒有反對啊但是用詞上這樣會嚴重到在比那個國民政府的時候還倒退啊"},{"start":17648.15,"end":17667.85,"text":"會有這樣的用詞這個部分不是新的東西是取得原住民身份這個東西是原來就有的這個是我們這邊的提醒當然如果說主管機關這邊他們也沒有意見的話我們也尊重他們好不好那我們立法說明裡面有沒有特別說明"},{"start":17679.485,"end":17691.894,"text":"這方面影響實際的作業,要去推翻它實際的作業。你來申請的時候還是按照我審查程序,我還是會審查。我們都沒有從來要去否定他們的。"},{"start":17711.611,"end":17714.412,"text":"第三條就得申請三個刪除修正通過然後第第4條第4條"},{"start":17734.281,"end":17758.23,"text":"第一個就是得申請這三個字就比照剛才那個部分現在是重點重點就是在那個本席所提的第5條的12345第5項第5項內政部可以接受嗎"},{"start":17761.855,"end":17776.511,"text":"本席的第9月的那個養子女之本生父母於收養後取得原住民身份者養子女於未成年時得由本生父母或養父母申請取得原住民身份"},{"start":17777.171,"end":17797.768,"text":"以成年者得以個人意願申請取得原住民身份前向養子女得以利害關係人身份依附集法第65條規定向戶政事務所申請本身父母之戶籍資料或戶籍等本因為他成年了"},{"start":17799.312,"end":17821.839,"text":"他拿不到本身父母他一看他的本身父母是有原住民身份結果他自己他要去申請的時候當然要你們的資料才可以謝謝跟委員會報告我是戶政司專委潘映中先跟委員報告第5項第5項的部分我們這邊是提出說"},{"start":17822.759,"end":17852.319,"text":"因為你針對於養殖你他未成年的時候如果他要申請原住民的這個身份他當然是要法定代理人來處理那現在變成說這邊可能會有第5條的第5項那他如果要取得原住民身份他變成有法定代理人未成年要有法定代理人來申請那現在變成說如果本身父母跟養父母兩個都可以的時候那會不會造成實務上面可能兩個有所衝突啦那這個是我們的顧慮啦那這個擔心說在第一線的實務上面"},{"start":17852.699,"end":17872.209,"text":"部署會面臨到說如果生父母跟養父母同時出現那他們對於這個原住民衛生年齡、原住民身份有爭議的時候要怎麼處理所以我們提出來這一點希望說大家再做一個討論那第二個部分是針對於說就是說你要取得這個生父母的這個戶籍資料的部分"},{"start":17872.489,"end":17891.837,"text":"因為他已經是收養了那收養的部分當然你要回頭再去取得正當在法律上面他其實就是他是跟生父母基本上就是有一個就是暫停這個法律上的相關的關係那如果說他要再去取得生父母的戶籍資料的時候其實報告委員我們在110年也有發一個文給各縣市"},{"start":17892.737,"end":17909.953,"text":"如果說這個當事人基於原住民身份法的相關的身份取得需要去拿到生父母的這些資料那護所就可以依照這樣的一個條文來做審查就是說如果他真的有因為這個原住民身份法必須要有取得身份的需要的時候"},{"start":17910.513,"end":17937.678,"text":"那戶政事務所他還可以依照這個情況來做審查所以其實實務上面如果有發生戶所他還是可以依照這個這個以利害關係的身份去處理所以這邊需不需是就是說如果我們先我們就是之前已經有做過相關的函事那如果說這邊要定那我們原則上是就尊重這樣子是是我們的大律師"},{"start":17940.945,"end":17968.461,"text":"大律師我先說我先說你一下因為司法院釋字第28號解釋文養子女以本生父母方命之天然血親雖然他被縮養了天然血親仍然存在故有之天然血親這個字都是"},{"start":17970.666,"end":17986.632,"text":"不受影響的所以甚至甚至那個司法院四字第28號解釋也特別提到當養父母與養子女利害相反訴訟的時候"},{"start":17988.564,"end":18017.152,"text":"本身的父母都還可以為了這個自己的子女的利益還是可以代為訴訟所以這部分是在司法院釋字第28號有這樣的一個解釋文最重要的就是說最新的解釋憲法法庭111年憲判之第4號判決人之血統先於憲法法律存在之自然事實"},{"start":18018.332,"end":18030.04,"text":"所以原住民之身分認同權應受憲法第22條規定高度保障所以原住民特殊人格權利所以基於這樣的一個情形所以這個"},{"start":18032.318,"end":18055.055,"text":"我才會規定說養子女之本身父母於收養後取得原住民身份者養子女於未成年時得由其中之一你本身父母你要幫他申請或是說有養父母現在其實案例都是養父母了現在的案例其實都是養父母"},{"start":18056.497,"end":18077.47,"text":"希望讓他的養子女取得原住民身份現在很多的個案都是這樣但是現在因為這個過去條文沒有訂得很清楚所以內政部一直礙於這個部分如果剛才這個內政部的剛才的意見是怕兩方意見不同的時候不然的話我們就把"},{"start":18078.973,"end":18106.451,"text":"得由本身父母這幾個字拿掉就得由養父母得由養父母申請起的原住民身份然後以成年的時候當然自己可以做決定這樣是不是可以做這樣的一個我知道就是其實這個意思法定代理人也是可以法定代理人當然就是養父母"},{"start":18108.428,"end":18133.34,"text":"還是要用法定代理人更明確了報告主席因為這個部分我們其實這個部分的條文我們是擺在第6條而且適用的範圍是更廣的因為我們也了解委員所提的意思就是說一旦被收養之後他想要取得原住民身份依照現行的規定他必須要先終止收養關係因為他不能改姓在收養過程當中他不能改回生父母的姓"},{"start":18134.741,"end":18152.459,"text":"所以往往必須要先終止收養關係然後才能取得原住民的身份所以我們第6條我們排除了第1078條第一項、第二項這是有關收養的那個部分所以它只要這個被排除掉之後"},{"start":18153.2,"end":18170.149,"text":"他為了要取得原住民身份他就可以去從他的本身父母的姓或者是並列原住民的傳統姓名就可以取得原住民身份對對對所以我們而且因為我們的版本對是那就剩下那個剛才內政部也也同意嘛"},{"start":18172.734,"end":18177.158,"text":"第16屆立法委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":18202.199,"end":18218.154,"text":"對阿以前那個是把它放在那個火鍋裏面的好那個那個這樣把這個跡象放在哪裏就是第5條好好好好可以齁好"},{"start":18220.829,"end":18234.795,"text":"我們第4條齁就照行政案版來通過齁好那個董先生請一樣拿掉吧比較前面的那條齁好 確認確認那個第4條這邊第4條這邊"},{"start":18241.478,"end":18269.394,"text":"就是我們表示一下意見那就是看那個大院這邊的有沒有什麼其他的想法就是說第4條這邊關於這個原住民當然是學通主義為主然後認同原則當作一個輔助標準那在認同的表徵的這個地方的話其實在第3條這邊有有三款情形可以適用那第4條這邊只列了兩款那只是不知道說"},{"start":18270.975,"end":18296.132,"text":"這個第二款的情形是不是可以包含在要怎麼解釋它是第三款的哪一種情形還是有包含第三條的哪一款情形或第三條的哪幾款情形加在一起這部分是不太清楚啦但我也知道說這個到底收養他的要成立原住民具有原住民身份他的要件恐怕可以跟第三條做不一樣的"},{"start":18297.153,"end":18324.955,"text":"可以做不一樣的規範只是我們看條文會有這樣的問題現行的條文也是不一樣我們是提出這樣的疑惑如同我們書面意見所載的這樣子給大家參考第4條修正通過對第4條就修正通過有跟比照第4條就修正通過接下來第幾頁"},{"start":18328.746,"end":18350.295,"text":"14月原住民有受害情形之意的喪失原住民身份這個部分各位有沒有意見好沒有意見的話我們第5條就照行政院版第5條就照行政院版通過好"},{"start":18356.431,"end":18380.268,"text":"我們現在第17頁看一下第17頁第6條現行的條文第6條原住民離子之非婚生子女取得原住民身份前向非婚生子女經非原住民身份論明者上司原住民身份單約定存有姓或原住民身份非原住民子女此次非婚生子女經原住民身份論明"},{"start":18380.868,"end":18403.958,"text":"且重複信或原住民成為名字者、取得原住民身份,判處的理由是本條所定有關取得原住民身份之事項,略以修正條案第3條規定之無重複規範之。」好,各位沒意見?沒意見?好,現行法的第6條就刪除,就照行政院版一樣刪除。"},{"start":18405.495,"end":18430.486,"text":"然後現行的第6條行政院版的第6條本席的第7條然後蔡司應的第7條好剛才有討論到這個行政院版的第6條要增加這個原來的本席所提的第幾條"},{"start":18434.827,"end":18454.273,"text":"第5條的那個最後一項這個可以吧那怎麼樣加在第幾項還是在授權給那個內政委員會人員來去把它陣列在"},{"start":18460.097,"end":18481.462,"text":"我們先我們先討論後面的你們在那個誰那個你們你們的同仁去看檢查一下哈檢查一下哈我們先把後面的先保留好等一下他們文字幕好我們再來哈"},{"start":18485.458,"end":18497.329,"text":"好第7條在20月第7條符合這是行政院版是第7條那個蔡適應委員的版本是第8條"},{"start":18500.882,"end":18520.816,"text":"符合第2條至第4條規定取得原住民身份之要件而予申請取得原住民身份前死亡者其執理總用第3條及前條之規定取得原住民身份各位有沒有意見沒有意見好就照行政院版通過第8條"},{"start":18523.563,"end":18546.799,"text":"這個條次變更而已了其他文字沒有變好就照行政院版通過第8條然後本席的第8條之一符合第2條第4條或第6條規定取得原住民身份之要件但於申請取得原住民身份前別收養這個你們說明一下"},{"start":18549.02,"end":18552.462,"text":"這部分在第6條我們已經有排除因為提案的時間不同本期的第8條之一不宜增淀不宜增淀的理由是前面已經有了"},{"start":18572.873,"end":18579.38,"text":"行政院版的第9條其他也沒有也就是現行條文的第11條我先念一下這個"},{"start":18584.813,"end":18610.372,"text":"原住民因依其父或母之所屬民族登記其民族別其原住民族從有名字或從姓因與其登記之民族別相關聯且向原住民民族別之認定、登記、變更及其他相關事項之辦法由中央原住民族主管機關定之好 各位有沒意見沒有請教而已"},{"start":18614.57,"end":18637.479,"text":"請問一下這個第9條的第二款然後對應到說明欄3這邊有提按姓名條例第一條第二項的規定原住民族取用或並列原住民族傳統名字我是想要請問一下這個取用有沒有包含單列"},{"start":18639.045,"end":18667.166,"text":"這樣的情況其實因為單列或是並列它是登記的方式那取用的話就取用傳統名字所以取用就是單列嗎是包括包括單列嗎也會對那我是不是請教一下因為我早上質詢有關心這個原住民身份法聯動姓名條例有問說姓名條例的部分部長、院內政部"},{"start":18668.027,"end":18691.293,"text":"就是目前因為已經執勤沒有沒有沒有我跟你說聯動因為已經執勤8個會期了合格講起來沒有什麼聯動啊不因為會影響啊那因為這個單列會影響到人們所以我的意思是說那個有回應說行政院已經同意單列了他們要同意你們要看他的報告"},{"start":18692.406,"end":18693.527,"text":"執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益"},{"start":18723.747,"end":18735.294,"text":"內政部今天的書面報告他們認為還是要下一階段好 等一下再談所以第9條各位有沒有意見"},{"start":18737.898,"end":18751.482,"text":"好,第9條就於行政院版本通過不是,這個說來有故事,這個第11條謝謝你挑選的第11條這個是本席開創的當初我是處長啦好,這個第10條"},{"start":18763.638,"end":18779.916,"text":"行政院版的第10條這個只是調次嗎?調次 它本來那個第二項要移到那個前條就民主別的認定辦法的那個部分調到第10條第9條來規定所以它基本上沒有動沒有動 文字沒有動"},{"start":18781.878,"end":18803.258,"text":"好,第10條就照行政院版通過然後第11條這個說明一下為什麼變成加一個脫落原來是移落一直看到這樣文字我們是配合那個戶籍法的那個規定這也是內政部給我們的建議說有可能會有脫落的情形"},{"start":18806.687,"end":18825.904,"text":"我第一次看到這樣的文字這個脫落跟遺漏有什麼差別啊複習法有這樣寫是嗎我們是寫脫落啦在複習法裡面嗎對22條裡面我們就寫複習登記事項有錯誤或脫落時因爲什麼什麼登記我們的用語是這樣解釋一下這個脫落什麼意思"},{"start":18826.209,"end":18830.755,"text":"第16屆立法委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":18844.672,"end":18868.809,"text":"到底要遺漏好還是脫漏好以前的錯誤可以改從這個原住民生產法開始改因為這一條是內政部建議的那如果說基於相類似的概念如果說法條的用語能夠越一次的話那當然大家使用上就不會有什麼問題這樣子所以用脫漏的話應該也是可能會比較一次這樣子以前"},{"start":18872.933,"end":18901.522,"text":"你早上沒有聽我的質詢了民法後來是參考我們身份法來回去改的好 這個好 第11條就照行政院版脫落哎呀好 第12條好 這個行政院版照行政院版通過 有沒有問題好 還有第6條如何"},{"start":18904.239,"end":18931.112,"text":"打字上我們這個原住民身份法是在民國89年之後審查的然後90年這個三讀通過公佈施行然後授權涉及到90年1月1號"},{"start":18932.619,"end":18940.551,"text":"中央委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":18943.786,"end":18962.806,"text":"明天要重複沒有什麼協議是從原住民身份法開始父母協議然後要用你的孩子是要從父還是從母是從原住民身份法優先先通過的後來民法才跟著改"},{"start":18963.507,"end":18963.827,"text":"這個行政機關這麼久"},{"start":18991.947,"end":19011.824,"text":"第16屆立法委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":19018.452,"end":19019.837,"text":"第16屆立法委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19052.405,"end":19054.026,"text":"新增第三項,一、"},{"start":19074.036,"end":19074.476,"text":"我唸一下"},{"start":19105.707,"end":19130.892,"text":"行政院版的第6條行政院版的第6條增加第三項第三項的我唸一下前項楊子敏一第三項不用楊子敏"},{"start":19132.932,"end":19155.592,"text":"一、逼向規定申請取得原住民身份者得以利害關係人身份向附贈事務所申請本身父母、知父及資料或父及藤本是這樣一、附集法"},{"start":19160.255,"end":19184.921,"text":"楊子毅得以利害關係人身份依附集法第65條規定向副政書所申請本身父母之附集資料或附集等本好各位有沒有意見好這個就是按照內政部的意見的條文來做修正好第6條我們就修正通過"},{"start":19189.602,"end":19189.802,"text":"好、好、好。"},{"start":19217.916,"end":19218.336,"text":"好 請先讀協商結論"},{"start":19251.174,"end":19268.693,"text":"宣讀原住民生命法修正草案協商結論第一條造行正義提案條文通過第二條造行正義提案條文通過現行法第三條刪除第三條修正通過第四條修正通過"},{"start":19271.345,"end":19299.545,"text":"第5條造行政議提案條文通過現行法第6條刪除第6條修正通過第7條造行政議提案條文通過第8條造行政議提案條文通過委員鄭天才等18人提案增訂第8條之一不予增訂第9條造行政議提案條文通過第10條造行政議提案條文通過第11條造行政議提案條文通過第12條造行政議提案條文通過宣讀完畢"},{"start":19302.488,"end":19311.12,"text":"那我們那個第三條跟第四條的補充立法那個補充立法有再請移民會提供那現在請先讀剛才那個"},{"start":19318.097,"end":19335.069,"text":"請問各位剛剛協商的結論通過請問有沒有異議好我們就本次會議審查通過這條文調適引述條文部分文字及相關法制用作權主席及議事人員整理好接下來"},{"start":19337.315,"end":19338.876,"text":"本案與議會討論時,由召集委員易蘭作補充說明。」"},{"start":19362.564,"end":19385.514,"text":"一日申法已經審查完畢了那現在就是跟姓名接下來是姓名條例跟那個工作成員保障法跟這個沒有關係的就可以先離席現在先讀那個討論事項第二案及第三案所有的條文先讀完畢後我們再進行協商"},{"start":19389.011,"end":19405.11,"text":"宣讀《原住民族工作權保障法》海巡政院提案共7案法名稱委員吳立華等18人提案名稱修正為《原住民族工作權法》第一章委員吳立華等18人提案同線刑法"},{"start":19406.107,"end":19433.142,"text":"第一條行政院提案將原住民修正為原住民族刪除後段本法未規定者適用其他法律之規定之文字其餘同性行條文委員吳立華等18人提案第一句維持性行法之原住民用語其餘同行政院提案第二條行政院提案增訂第二項文字為本法所稱原住民族地區只依原住民族基本法第二條第三款規定和定制地區其餘同性行條文委員吳立華等18人提案同行政院提案"},{"start":19433.982,"end":19461.371,"text":"第3條委員吳立華等18人提案同性行條文第2章行政院提案章名修正為穩定就業措施五聯繞國動等25人提案章名修正為禁用保障委員吳立華等18人提案同行政院提案第4條行政院提案修正為第4條各級政府機關各公立學校及公營事業機構除位於澎湖金門連江縣及原住民族地區外其員工總人數100人以上者經驗年住民人數不得低於員工總人數1%"},{"start":19463.011,"end":19486.896,"text":"前向鎖定員工總人數之計算以各級政府機關、各公益學校與公益事業機構為投保單位之每月一日參加公教人員保險及勞工保險人數為準經驗員、住民人數之計算以各級政府機關、各公益學校與公益事業機構為投保單位之每日參加公教人員保險及勞工保險人數為準並以整數計算未達整數部分不予記錄前向員工之投保薪資未達基本工資者不計"},{"start":19488.556,"end":19509.49,"text":"不計入員工總人數但原住民員工資投保薪資達基本工資二分之一者經用二人得以一人計入原住民人數依法合宜留職停薪、經資遣或退休人繼續參加工作人員保險或勞工保險人員凍結及列管出缺不補者不計入員工總人數但留職停薪出缺不補之原因為原住民者"},{"start":19510.49,"end":19532.958,"text":"紀律禁用原住民人數委員恐問及等22任提案修正文第4條各級政府機關公立學校及一國營事業法第3條所認定之國營事業除衛彭湖金門名江縣外其員工總人數在100人以上者禁用原住民人數不得低於員工總人數3%私立學校團體及民營事業機構其員工總人數在100人以上者禁用原住民人數不得低於員工總人數1%"},{"start":19534.378,"end":19563.387,"text":"全國軍人、警察、消防及海岸巡防機關一第一項及第五條第一項規定金融智能住民得合併計算總額控管第一項、第二項及第五條第一項各級政府機關、公司、律學校、團體依國營事業法第3條所認定之國營事業及民營事業機構員工總人數及金融營住民人數之計算方式以其每月一日參加勞保、工保及軍保人數為準經合定為出缺不補、源於凍結及留職、停薪者不計入員工總人數請四項規定依資本法中華民國全年軍業全日實施"},{"start":19564.207,"end":19581.417,"text":"修正之條文施行後二年施行委員廖國棟等25人提案修正為第4條各級政府機關公立學校公法人及公民事業機構除位於原住民族地區及澎湖金門名家縣外其員工總人數每滿100人應經由原住民一人前項所稱之員工總人數以其每月一日參加勞"},{"start":19582.678,"end":19599.126,"text":"勞工保險、公交人員保險人數為準經核定為出缺不補原而凍結及留置聽信者不予列入計算本法所稱原住民族地區指原住民傳統居住具有原住民族歷史淵源及文化特色經中央主管機關報請行政院核定之地區委員陳明等17人提案"},{"start":19599.566,"end":19615.76,"text":"盯上序文、刪除除位於澎湖、金門、寧江、縣外之文字其餘通信性條文委員吳立華等18人提案修正人第4條各級政府機關、公立學校及公益事業機構除位於澎湖、金門、寧江、縣外員工總人數100人以上者今年原住民族人數不得低於員工總人數1%"},{"start":19616.901,"end":19645.763,"text":"前項員工總人數以每月一日該機關購學校為投保單位計算參加公保及勞保之人數經用原住民族人數以每日該機關購學校為投保單位計算參加公保及勞保之人數前項原住民族員工投保薪資未達基本工資者不計入員工總人數及經用原住民族人數但投保薪資達基本工資二分之一以上者經用二人得以一人計入原住民族人數依法合宇留職停薪人繼續參加公保或勞保者員而凍結或列管出缺不補者"},{"start":19646.343,"end":19663.275,"text":"不予計入員工總人數但六指停薪出卻不補之原而委員駐民族者計入經營員駐民族人數委員鄭天才等17年提案,第一項序文前段修正為各級政府機關各公民學校、公民事業機構及政府捐助制裁團法人處位於澎湖、金門、龍江縣及原住民族地區外"},{"start":19664.673,"end":19689.242,"text":"第2項及第3項於公民事業機構後面增訂及政府捐助之財團法人文字並著作文字修正其餘同線型條文委員政廳採等17年提案增訂第4條之一文字自為第4條之一各級政府機關構公民學校及公民事業機構除位於澎湖、金門、南江縣及原住民族地區外金融需居公務員員任用資格者金融原住民人數應不得低於現有元額之1%"},{"start":19690.723,"end":19706.788,"text":"第5條行政委員提案修正為第5條為原住民族地區之各級政府機關及公民學校及公民事業機構其經驗原住民人數不得低於員工總人數3%但其所在地區之原住民族人口比率低於3%者依其原住民族人口比率經驗原住民"},{"start":19707.228,"end":19723.839,"text":"位於原住民族地區之縣市政府、鄉鎮市區公所,依其所辖地區之原住民族人口比率經營原住民,其二項所定之原住民族人口比率而中央主管機關免時能供告之第一項員工總人數及經營原住民人數之計算準用前條第二項至第四項規定"},{"start":19725.16,"end":19751.865,"text":"委員孔文集的22任提案修正為第5條原住民族地區各級政府機關公立學校及依國營事業法第3條所認定之國營事業其經營原住民人數之比率不得低於員工總人數30%但上例情形依各款規定辦理依各級政府機關管轄地區學校招生學區跨縣市或鄉鎮市且原住民平均人口比率低於30%者不得低於該平均人口比率二鄉鎮市公所不得低於所轄之原住民人口比率"},{"start":19752.245,"end":19776.635,"text":"其中原住民人口比率逾70%者不得低於70%與原住民族地區各級政府機關及依《國營事業法》第3條所認定之國營事業經以業務性質特殊、服務對象廣泛其單位定額經營總人數之計算範圍得於本法施行細則令定之第一項比率應每5年進行檢討本條之規定自本法《中華民國圈內圈域圈域修正之條文》施行後2年施行"},{"start":19777.515,"end":19786.648,"text":"五連繞國動等25人提案修正為第5條原住民族地區各級政府機關、公立學校公法人及公民事業機構經用非具公教營運用資格者其人數總額應有35%以上為原住民經用須具公教營運用資格者其人數總額應有60%以上為原住民"},{"start":19794.139,"end":19812.833,"text":"但商政市區公所其人員金融比率不得低於首瑕之原住民人口比率其中原住民人口比率逾70%者其金融原住民人數之比率不得低於70%前項所稱人數總額以其每月一日參加勞工保險、公交人員保險人數為準金和電源儲缺不補由於凍結節流之停薪者不予列入計算"},{"start":19813.433,"end":19829.582,"text":"第1項及前條應經營原住民人數需以本法施行後卻年內完成但現有緣為未達比率者4員工出缺後再行經用委員吳麗華等18人提案修正為第5條原住民族地區之各級政府機關公立學校及公立事業機構經營原住民族人數不得低於員工總人數3%但縣市政府鄉鎮市區公所"},{"start":19833.664,"end":19855.984,"text":"其所辖地區之原住民族人口比率金融低於3%者以3%計原住民族人口比率每5年由中央主管機關公告之第一項員工總人數計計算準用前條第二項至第5項規定委員鄭天才等17年提案第一項蓄員及第二項與公民事業機構後面增幣及政府捐助之財團法人文字第三項中斷之2%修正為3%刪除第4項其餘同線型條文第6條"},{"start":19860.948,"end":19878.681,"text":"委員會立法等18人提案將原住民文字修正為原住民族其餘頭線性條文第3章委員會立法等18人提案將原住民文字修正為原住民族合作社第7條委員會立法等18人提案將原住民文字修正為原住民族其餘頭線性條文第8條行政院提案刪除"},{"start":19879.441,"end":19908.318,"text":"委員孔文吉等22人提案委員廖國棟等25人提案及委員鄭天才等17人提案刪除後段但自本法施行之日起6年內應免徵所得稅之營業及營業稅文次其餘同線性條文委員武麗華等18人提案將原住民文次修正為原住民族其餘同線性條文第9條委員武麗華等18人提案將原住民文次修正為原住民族其餘同線性條文第10條委員武麗華等18人提案將原住民文次修正為原住民族其餘同線性條文"},{"start":19909.318,"end":19929.53,"text":"第4章行政委員提案章明修正為政府採購促進就業措施委員廖國棟等25人提案章明修正為政府採購保障委員吳立華等18人提案章明修正為政府採購輔助就業措施第11條行政委員提案將各級政府機關文字修正為各級政府機關購原住民文字修正為原住民族其餘同性型條文"},{"start":19930.12,"end":19956.722,"text":"委員懇文集的20任提案原住民文字修正為原住民族增訂第二項文字為各級政府機關、公立學校及依國營事業法第3條所認定之國營事業辦理工高金額十分之一以下之採購因優先競洽原住民個人機構法人或團體不受政府採購法第49條之限制但原住民個人機構法人或團體無法承包者不在此限其餘同性行條文委員繞國動的25任提案於公立學校後面增訂公法人文字"},{"start":19957.182,"end":19979.935,"text":"原住民文字修正為原住民族其餘同性型條文委員陳瑩等16人提案增訂第二項文字為前項公告金額由主管機關定期檢討公告其餘同性型條文委員武麗華等18人提案同行政院提案委員鄭天才等17人提案強調文字修正為各級政府機關購、公立學校、公民事業機構及政府捐助製裁團法人其餘同性正面提案"},{"start":19980.735,"end":20001.245,"text":"第12條,行政院提案第一項後段增訂,但得標廠商為各級政府機關、各公立學校及公立事業機構者不在此限第二項後段修正為其補助條件期間數額及相關事項之辦法由中央聯邦主管機關定之增訂第三項文字為第一項員工總人數及經營原住民人數之計算準用第4條第二項至第4項規定"},{"start":20003.906,"end":20029.806,"text":"現行條例第3項以略第4項並修正為得標廠商經營原住民元數未達第1項規定比率者應就經用差額人數向原住民族綜合發展基金及就業基金繳納代金增訂第5項文字為前項代金供差額人數乘以每月基本工資計算不足1月者每日以每月基本工資除以30日計但得標廠商應繳納代金經營超過政府採購決標經營一定比率者得與著減其一定比率減輕機制"},{"start":20031.307,"end":20049.031,"text":"金額計算方式及其他相關事項及辦法由中央主管機關定之其餘同性行條文委員要活動的25人提案第三項會議案增訂得標廠商需繳納代金金額如超過政府採購金額者的減輕機制其減輕機制由中央主管機關定之文字其餘同性行條文"},{"start":20049.511,"end":20073.277,"text":"委員吳立華等18人提案第三項修正為前項員工總人數字計算準用第4條第二項至第5項規定其餘同線型條文第5章委員吳立華等18人提案章民同線型法第13條行政院提案刪除第一項第二項一列第一項並將公民營機構文字修正為公民營事業機構原住民文字修正為原住民族增訂第二項文字為"},{"start":20073.997,"end":20100.563,"text":"為增進於原住民族長期穩定工作機會政府應鼓勵私立學校、法人、團體及民營事業機構經營原住民及與同性情條文委員賴國棟等25人提案將第二項公民營機構文資修正為公民營事業機構及與同性情條文委員吳麗華等18人提案第一項同行政院提案第二項修正為中央勞動主管機關對直轄市縣市轄區內原住民人口達2萬人以上者應設立會委託直轄市縣市主管機關設立"},{"start":20102.123,"end":20126.472,"text":"原住民族特殊文化之原住民公立就業服務機構第14條行政院提案第一項原住民文字修正為原住民族第二項各級政府機關文字修正為各級政府機關購令著作文字修正其餘同性行條文委員廖國棟等25人提案於公立學校後面增訂公法人文字其餘同性行條文委員伍麗華等18人提案第一項原住民文字修正為原住民族"},{"start":20126.912,"end":20143.511,"text":"第二項修正為各級政府機關公益學校及公益事業機構依第4條及第5條規定經用原住民族時得函請各級主管機關推介當各級政府機關公益學校及公益事業機構之法定義而無法以推介方式禁用者不得函請各級主管機關推介其餘同現行條文"},{"start":20144.252,"end":20167.999,"text":"第15條委員吳立華等18人提案將原住民文字修正為原住民族其餘同線型條文第16條委員吳立華等18人提案將原住民文字修正為原住民族其餘同線型條文第17條委員吳立華等18人提案同線型條文第18條行政院提案將非志願文字修正為非志願其餘同線型條文委員孔文吉等22人提案同行政院提案"},{"start":20169.881,"end":20188.853,"text":"委員五立法等18人提案將原住民文資修正為原住民族其餘同行政院提案第19條委員五立法等18人提案將原住民文資修正為原住民族其餘同線性條文第6章行政院提案章明修正為勞資專業處理及基金管理委員五立法等18人提案同行政院提案"},{"start":20189.333,"end":20216.745,"text":"第20條委員吳立華等18人提案將原住民文資修正為原住民族其餘同縣型條文第21條委員吳立華等18人提案同縣型條文第22條委員吳立華等18人提案同縣型條文第23條委員吳立華等18人提案將原住民文資修正為原住民族其餘同縣型條文第24條行政院提案修正為第24條各級政府機關構公民學校及公民事業機構金融原住民人數未達第4條第1項第5條第1項或第2項所定比例者"},{"start":20217.205,"end":20239.185,"text":"每月應就經用X2元數向原住民族綜合發展基金之就業基金繳納代金前項代金X2元數乘以每月基本工資計算不足1月者每日以每月基本工資除以35計各級政府機關、各公民學校及公民事業機構應經用困難至未達第4條第1項、第5條第1項或第2項所定比率者等人員繳納代金其經用困難之認定基準"},{"start":20239.705,"end":20268.16,"text":"待經營演員繳納期間程序及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之各級政府機關構、學校、法人、團體及事業機構、金融、原住民情形及優者應以獎勵及獎勵對象基準方式及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之中央主管機關會辦理待經收繳及合算相關事宜得請各級政府機關構、學校、法人、團體及事業機構提供留職、填薪、資遣、退休、援兒、凍結、夜館、出缺、不補、公教育員、保險及勞工保險等資料"},{"start":20269.982,"end":20289.974,"text":"該機關、各學校、法人、團體或事業機構無正當理由不得拒絕。」委員孔文吉等22人提案修正委第24條各級政府、機關、公司、立學校、團體及公司運營事業機構經營原住民之人書未達第4條或第5條所定比例者因每月繳納代金前項制代金差額人數乘以每月基本工資計算"},{"start":20291.83,"end":20307.745,"text":"對於經由原住民倡出規定比例之私立學校團體及民營事業機構並得以原住民族綜合發展基金之就業基金合法獎勵金其經由最高按鈔額經由年數乘以每月基本工資三分之二計算前項獎勵條件方式及其他相關事宜之辦理由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":20308.926,"end":20323.803,"text":"五元廖國棟等25人提案修正為第24條各級政府機關公益學校公法人及公益事業機構金融原住民之人數未達第4條及第5條所定應金融之原住民人數者每月應向原住民族綜合發展基金及就業基金代表"},{"start":20325.544,"end":20347.85,"text":"繳納貸金,但依第5條第3項規定經用者自出缺時及一個月內免繳貸金,傾向及第12條第3項之貸金,依差額人數乘以每月基本工資計算,不足業者每日以每月基本工資除以30計,其貸金之計算45入至整數,依本法應繳納之貸金,依通知現期其繳納而人不繳納者依法行移送行政執行"},{"start":20348.51,"end":20367.388,"text":"各級政府機關、公立學校、公法人、公立事業機構及第一政府採購法之得標廠商、金融或雇用原住民人數超出規定應金融或雇用原住民人數者應予獎勵其獎勵辦法由中央主管機關定制委員吳立華等18人提案修正為第24條各級政府機關、公立學校、公立事業機構及得標廠商"},{"start":20368.129,"end":20387.567,"text":"金融原住民族人數未達第4條、第1項、第5條、第1項及第12條、第1項所定比率者除每月一項原住民族綜合發展基金之就業基金繳納代金中央主管機關並得公告其名稱前項代金差額人數乘以每月基本工資計算但得標廠商應繳納代金金額超過政府採購決標金額者其減輕機制由中央主管機關並併支"},{"start":20389.088,"end":20407.294,"text":"各級政府機關、公立學校及公立事業機構亦下令規定辦理,經提出相關佐證人件得名繳代金。一、第14條第二項規定經函請各級主管機關推介,於各級主管機關未函付推介前得名繳代金,但每年度僅得申請415個月違憲,報竟中央主管機關同意者得延長2個月。"},{"start":20408.414,"end":20429.21,"text":"各級主管機關含附推介次日期一個月亦得免繳代金二、以提列公務人員特種考試原住民族考試任用計劃自提列日期至未獲分配考試錄取人員通知機關解除列管含送達日址三、公務事業機構公開偵視之類別限定具原住民身份者自公告偵視檢查日期至人員到職日址"},{"start":20429.91,"end":20452.53,"text":"本法應繳納之待經通知信其繳納而人不繳納者,依法依送行正執行。各級政府機關、公司、立學校、團體及公民、事業機構、金融員、住民族、勤刑及優者應以獎勵其獎勵辦法和中央主管機關定職。中央主管機關為辦理本法相關事宜的三相關機關取得留職、停薪、員額凍結、列管、出缺、不補、勞保及公保等資料各相關機關予以配合無正當理由不得拒絕。"},{"start":20453.391,"end":20471.531,"text":"委員鄭天才等17人提案第一項修正為各級政府機關購、公立學校、公立事業機構及政府捐助之財團法人金融原住民人數為達第4條、第4條之第5條所定比率者每月應就金融差額人數向原住民族綜合發展基金之就業基金繳納代金相除第三項、第四項及"},{"start":20472.792,"end":20498.046,"text":"專屬第3項、第4項及第5項分別一列第3項、第4項其餘同行政院提案第7章委員吳立華等18人提案章明同現行法第25條委員吳立華等18人提案同現行條文第26條行政院提案增訂第2項文字為本法中華民國圈年、圈月、圈日修正至第4條、第5條、第12條、第1項至第3項及第24條、第1項至第3項自公布後3年施行其餘同現行條文"},{"start":20498.846,"end":20526.027,"text":"委員孔文吉等22人提案修正為本法處令定施行日期者外自公佈日施行委員廖國棟等25人提案增訂第二項文字為中華民國全年全月全日修正條文自全年1月1日施行其餘同線型條文委員伍麗華等18人提案修正為本法處第4條、第5條、第12條、第14條及第24條、第1項至第4項自公佈後1年施行外自公佈日施行現在宣讀姓名條例"},{"start":20527.642,"end":20549.892,"text":"本議內政委員會於111年5月25日召開第10屆第5會期第20次全體委員會議審查委員鄭天才等16人、委員吳立華等20人及委員羅美玲等18人提案及該三案之條文及委員王美惠所提修正動議均已宣讀完畢現在宣讀委員廖國棟等16人已據姓名條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":20550.512,"end":20571.934,"text":"第一條第二項前段修正為臺灣原住民族及其他少數民族之姓名登記應符合其傳統名字增訂第三項文字為前項所稱之傳統名字應由中央原住民主管機關會上有關機關定之其餘同現行條文第二條第二項後段增訂但臺灣原住民傳統名字之姓名登記不在此現文字其餘同現行條文"},{"start":20573.135,"end":20593.067,"text":"第4條第一項修正為臺灣原住民族及其他少數民族之中文傳統姓名或漢人姓名均得與傳統姓名之羅馬拼音或原住民族文字單列或並列登記不受第一條第一項規定之限制其與同現行條文第8條第一項第三款原住民文字修正為原住民族其與同現行條文宣讀完畢"},{"start":20610.168,"end":20635.346,"text":"好我們繼續審查我們先審查那個姓名條例姓名條例的條文比較少我們先審查姓名條例那個條文這樣那個我們可能"},{"start":20637.15,"end":20654.823,"text":"我們先以大言者因為這個內政部今天的報告是認為這個還要警政院還沒有還沒有版本然後也還要擬計公事是不是內政部說明一下這樣我們就比較省時間了"},{"start":20665.555,"end":20675.7,"text":"今天主要議題涉及到那個原住民單列這個姓名單列原住民文字這個議題然後在報告裡面有主要說明說這一題行政院已經召開跨部會"},{"start":20676.58,"end":20704.293,"text":"會議的協商那基本上的結論就是說我們就是尊重朝向這個方向來推動那當時是有在提到說希望說原民會再去針對這個議題就部落的意見再去做些收集然後了解一下部落對這個議題的看法那另外就是說相關機關對於這件事情未來單列之後那因為就是都是相關的這個羅馬拼音的文字那各機關在相關配套上面能不能能夠落實跟上"},{"start":20704.753,"end":20726.292,"text":"那這個部分就是請各機關做完相關的盤點之後然後我們再行政院當時沒有沒有特別說要再包但是政府也說先把這些事情做一個釐清之後再做後續的一個最後的處理這樣所以我們目前也還沒有這個行政院我們還沒有提出修法的版本以上報告"},{"start":20735.11,"end":20755.236,"text":"所以這個部分我有按照部長早上的報告然後還有懸打這個所以行政院還要另外因為政務委員還沒有正式的拍板定案"},{"start":20773.694,"end":20785.579,"text":"最高行政法院也已經有判決了也有人已經單列了所以這個時候已經是水到渠成了行政院也同意,人民會也認定"},{"start":20786.544,"end":20786.765,"text":"確認對阿就這樣過了"},{"start":20798.39,"end":20820.98,"text":"行政單位好像這邊有困難是不是要讓他們再作為一下溝通因為最主要這個後面行政院還沒有拍板的時候是因為他要問說我們後續的作為到底行不行能不能馬上跟得上你跟不上你修法完了以後你跟不上也沒有用所以他為什麼到最後還沒有完全百分之百拍板那我是建議說等到那個行政院正式拍板以後再來"},{"start":20822.681,"end":20843.343,"text":"我其實不好意思因為這個我諮詢我幾乎每個會期都諮詢那我也知道內政部其實早在一兩年前我諮詢的時候都有在編錢啊都在改系統啊這個說不過去而且我們這個是最後一個會期"},{"start":20844.659,"end":20865.294,"text":"那公告實施不是我不是為了我啊這個最早古拉斯也是擔任立委也是一直在講這個問題啊啊我是覺得時候到了啦因為判決也有了也有人護證所幫那個人單列了都有了欸這個沒有什麼這個沒有什麼問題我就不理解啊版本也有啊"},{"start":20871.403,"end":20891.778,"text":"主席我看這樣子啦當然那個吳立法委員對這個案子非常在意也很認真啊努力在推動這個都可以理解啦但是我把它聽起來就是說我們行政院這個地方如果我們我們一般來講的話大家都會講說你院本在什麼地方呢個別委員當然都會有一些提出一些法案"},{"start":20892.418,"end":20917.512,"text":"那五立法委員提出這個法案我看起來是非常可行的也不像以前五花八門的案子沒有院版但在審了審了都怕了怕死了都是單點在解決那行政院我看最近還沒有提出來原因可能是至於讓他更完備可能會讓他更完備所以五立法委員也不用急這個大家會跟你一起來推動但我們也請說是不是讓"},{"start":20918.172,"end":20922.133,"text":"行政院這個地方趕快禁訴啦尤其原民會這個地方禁訴把他盤點完以後下次我相信吳立法委員連任回來以後這個案子我們就要趕快來推動了我不是為了歷史定位啦而是很多年輕人為了這件事去法院然後名字亂取大家去比賽亂取名字"},{"start":20942,"end":20964.899,"text":"我不想跟你論戰這一題這一題我是站在支持你的立場那我倒會覺得應該讓園民會這個地方來這裡不說話我就覺得怪怪的你怎麼知道就代表你們都共識都還沒取得啦共識有取得的找院版就出來了啦我們這不是第一天當立委啦至少聽一下那個園民會怎麼說"},{"start":20967.073,"end":20993.305,"text":"行政院有何意識請人民會做決論嗎剛剛內政部是講得很清楚啊人民會一直都贊成啊他們的書面包括上一次審查我們的那鄭委員你今天是主席你贊不贊成我都有條文啊今天有條文的除了吳立華委員還有鄭天才、史拉卡、趙委員還有劉美芸委員還有廖國棟委員今天都有提案所以這個部分下次再等行政院"},{"start":20997.253,"end":21021.236,"text":"就請行政院這個地方趕快提出院板因為你們都認為說有時間時程上問題各部會要去配合那就趕快加強好不好他們都支持我替他們說他們支持你們三位跟維民會你們立場是一致是沒問題的行政院"},{"start":21024.278,"end":21027.664,"text":"好這個既然沒有共識這個這個這個部分"},{"start":21040.056,"end":21055.562,"text":"當然原民會的立場從原住民族語言發展法第二條已經有原住民族文字這個地方已經規定得很清楚我們的語言跟文字已經是國家的語言國家的文字"},{"start":21056.624,"end":21085.102,"text":"所以就這個原住民發展法來講的話它的確應該已經符合這個單列的這個條件了因為法律配套已經有了這第一個那第二個是的確我們在去年行政院由另外一政委召開的那個上半年那個會議有召開過各部會的代表一起開會也有做成紀錄那這裡面呢"},{"start":21087.746,"end":21102.874,"text":"我們最後要解決我想內政部也都很大概是系統的問題可不可以解決這是一個好最後我要補充的是說顏明威的印象希望早日完成立法"},{"start":21104.571,"end":21128.562,"text":"因為內政部也都很清楚我們已經有一個案例就是寶渡白岸那個地方因為內政部已經受理已經讓他取得這個單列的這個案例了所以我們最後還是要面對這個問題因為別的研究委員會覺得為什麼只有寶渡白岸可以單列我為什麼不可以我也是原住民這個是我們要早晚面對的問題這個部分我們最後畢竟還是要解決這個問題謝謝"},{"start":21132.529,"end":21159.307,"text":"我延續剛剛也這樣講的我覺得內政部在這個部分顯然是沒有很注意這個法案的修正那修正的原理其實很簡單沒有其他的含義你為什麼一定要還要經過什麼什麼一個程序我聽不大懂我當立法會22年我聽不懂你講的話對啊就解決了嘛還有什麼現在還有什麼困難"},{"start":21163.309,"end":21175.095,"text":"今天都已經在協商了還是要問其他的部會是委員會的問題還是哪個程序沒有走完為什麼現在都已經在談判了還在談說其他的機關有什麼疑問呢因為這條這個姓名條例好幾條條文"},{"start":21186.082,"end":21212.242,"text":"剛才羅美玲召委還有莊惠雄委員也提出了這個因為行政部門還沒有準備好所以我們就另定期審查如果等一下你們回去之後OK的話我們禮拜四還可以拿出來好好溝通一下"},{"start":21213.583,"end":21234.596,"text":"因為本席也要企圖調穩這個部分很重要的很重要的很重要的要加速的這個按照如果如果我是延命會的好事我是內政部的話我就依最高行政法院的判決"},{"start":21235.905,"end":21250.662,"text":"我上次質詢有說做解釋就好啦不用修法可以做解釋如果可以的話更好現在也可以有魄力啊按照你過去的精神啊但是我現在沒有辦法做解釋我是行政部門所以我可以做解釋"},{"start":21252.003,"end":21274.662,"text":"好 這個姓名條例就另定其處理齁他們馬上說可以的話我就後天怎麼死好 接下來齁 工作前稍等一下 這邊要記錄公報 星期四齁溝通齁 溝通 星期四齁溝通有 有要告訴我"},{"start":21276.833,"end":21302.565,"text":"原住民族工作權保障法這個有一個很大的原則就是說行政院版的工作權保障法這個部分的條文對於現行條文的第幾條就是說這個第4條現行的條文第4條"},{"start":21304.621,"end":21322.658,"text":"是針對僱用下列人員諸位警察、技工、駕駛工友、清潔工、收費管理員及其他不需技工聯絡資格之非技術性公職職務"},{"start":21325,"end":21348.685,"text":"現在園民會認為是要把它擴大把職員職員也就是具備公務員資格的或是考試包括國營事業的具備資格的把它併在一起那本期的條文是要這個第4條現行條文的第4條要維持"},{"start":21349.585,"end":21367.356,"text":"然後這個我特別也提出新的條文就是說這個各級政府機關機構公立學校公民事業機構及政府監助之財團法人這個具備任用資格的"},{"start":21369.513,"end":21392.702,"text":"這些也應該納入進去分開就是要分開計算而不是合併計算那合併計算會對原住民不利的地方就是說對於這些不需要公認、內用資格的這些人在一般大部分的首長非原住民的首長"},{"start":21394.376,"end":21403.442,"text":"很多鄉鎮市長或是很多的中央或縣的首屬機關這些縣市政府這些首長"},{"start":21405.632,"end":21427.709,"text":"就不會優先禁用不計公務人員內用資格的因為他那個不用公務人員資格的他直接可以找自己的人所以變成會原住民的不計公務人員內用資格的這些會受到排擠反而會一直固然會增加"},{"start":21428.65,"end":21446.191,"text":"既有公務人員任用資格的人來寄用到政府部門但是對於不具備公務人員任用資格的部分未來就會不斷不斷的減少會有這樣的一個因為這個部分我有特別去問了"},{"start":21447.452,"end":21463.152,"text":"基層的這些不具備公務人員利用資格現在已經在職的我問他們的意見他們認為對這樣的把它合併起來對不具備公務人員利用資格的這些人的禁用會受到排擠"},{"start":21465.194,"end":21484.786,"text":"首長會會禁用這些具有公務人員資格的人所以這個部分是所以我的條文跟行政院版有很大的不同的地方所以這個部分行政院委員會是不是可以接受本席的所提的條文"},{"start":21491.411,"end":21515.593,"text":"好謝謝委員的指教我們這個原住民族工作群保障法的修法的整個條文的這個協商我們已經花了7年的時間各部會也都有非常多次的這個協商尤其是要很謝謝我們最後連"},{"start":21519.028,"end":21533.245,"text":"人事總署包括跟主要相關部會最後我們都達成現在目前的這個宴版那跟我們主席報告一下我們現在這個宴版的版本我們有兩個規劃的這個重點第一個是我們要讓我們在"},{"start":21539.591,"end":21553.919,"text":"中央各部會到地方政府各部會各地方政府都能夠增加禁用的職務列別不是只有限定在這個業務人員這個部分而已那麼在這件事情業務人員"},{"start":21557.642,"end":21584.602,"text":"他們的薪資增加的機會就會很少就永遠是業孤人員升薪的機會很少這是我們希望因為我們現在我們延敏跟非延敏每個月的薪資差異大概還有9000塊錢就是因為我們雖然失業率已經拉近了但是我們的所得第一我們都在技工公有那個地方很基層的地方來做這是我們"},{"start":21585.542,"end":21587.565,"text":"選舉委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":21601.068,"end":21606.271,"text":"有關針對現有的規定當中有901個機關是小於50個人也就是說這個機關不管是修法前跟修法後的時候它根本就是沒有義務要進入約顧五類的但是如果我們把它合併之後"},{"start":21623.18,"end":21635.034,"text":"901個機關合併公保的一些人數之後就有機會會增加我們原住民的人數我們舉一個例子在非原住民地區高雄市前鎮區區公所它的勞保總人數是22人"},{"start":21636.616,"end":21652.755,"text":"公保人數是80人如果分開計算他根本是沒有義務要禁用原住民但是合併禁用合併禁用的員工總人數他就必須因為超過100人就要禁用一人所以這個部分就是建議還是以院版的那個會去做一個通過會比較好"},{"start":21653.235,"end":21656.836,"text":"第16屆立法委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":21672.501,"end":21693.505,"text":"也不會因為說你的技工、工友、清潔然後住警、優惠五類跟駕駛的這個工作都會被那個我們的公務員搶去但是現有的這些人還會依照這個我們這相關的而且是人數總人數之下他就變成是一個義務要經用的一個機關我們這個人呢總歸來講我們後面會他會提高比例以上"},{"start":21701.423,"end":21725.117,"text":"所以我看這個原住民族工作權保障法行政單位跟我們委員還是有很大的這個意見的分歧所以說這部分事實你們還要再溝通再溝通好不好會比較快啦好這個剛才羅處長怎麼怎麼怎麼講你的名字去了哈祿處長"},{"start":21727.625,"end":21743.291,"text":"的說明你不了解地方的所長啊地方的所長包括這個中央或是縣的失業機構在原住民族第7的"},{"start":21744.517,"end":21758.924,"text":"他當然是會優先經營公務人員然後當這個不計公務人員那用資格的這個退休後離職之後他就不會再經營我們原住民了"},{"start":21761.085,"end":21787.063,"text":"這個事他他可以他的那個首長的內用權他會比較有利但是對原住民的不計公務員內用資格的會不利會不利既然這個有這麼大分歧的意見柔昭偉剛才柔美蓮昭偉在溝通這個我們定期"},{"start":21792.185,"end":21810.25,"text":"處理電池處理工作權保障法的部分因為我的部分好像大家沒有討論到我提到的部分我是針對那個離島的部分提出修正那因為在等一下喔"},{"start":21814.161,"end":21842.937,"text":"因為之前在過去我們這個金門澎湖連江的這個人口數在2001年的時候那這個原住民工作權保障法通過的時候那時候三個離島原住民的總人口數當時其實是不到200人那個時候是147人那但是現在就是說截至今年10月底涉及在"},{"start":21846.256,"end":21858.688,"text":"有涉戶籍的已經有達到2307人所以再加上人在外島然後戶籍在本島的原住民人數其實是有超過3000人的"},{"start":21860.289,"end":21881.243,"text":"所以在這個部分我們已經有這麼多的原住民在外島涉及在外島那這些人的工作權益我們也是要顧的那就不能拿這個已經是很多年前那個2001年那個時候的標準來套用在現在的這個現況上面所以這個部分"},{"start":21884.026,"end":21890.372,"text":"這個部分你們並沒有剛剛那個沒有做回應了那個陳委員你的條文所提的第4條條文跟行政院版的條文就不一樣了就不一樣"},{"start":21907.296,"end":21934.541,"text":"不一樣不一樣你要看對照表你的條文跟行政院版的條文不一樣兩很大的分歧所以剛才羅委員才會羅昭偉才會建議說這個先先溝通先協商再處理了是這樣所以今天不處理我的這個不是你的所有的不是只有你的因為你的條文跟行政院版有很大的差距啊"},{"start":21934.997,"end":21953.072,"text":"但是我覺得你應該會同意、贊成我的條文啊我的條文方面不贊成我提的意見我覺得站在原住民立委的角度大家應該會贊成啦最主要就是說行政院的條文版本跟"},{"start":21954.453,"end":21981.202,"text":"我們提的條文有非常大的差距所以這個部分剛才柔昭也那這樣子好不好我可以現場聽一下就是說行政院這邊很大的差距那你們的看法是什麼因為我不曉得你們剛剛也都沒有說明不是那個條文你要看條文對照表啊對就根據離島的部分我只是說現在不是他現在要把那個公共樂園的部分要併在那裡面了啦那我可以先聽一下他們的意見嗎就針對這個離島的部分"},{"start":21985.267,"end":22005.96,"text":"現在重點不在離島不是離島重點是在他要把這個非公務人員的部分跟公務人員的部分要併在一起然後我剛剛的說法是他們不同意我的條文我的條文是要把它分開啊你的條文也是分開嘛你的條文也是分開嘛"},{"start":22007.165,"end":22024.285,"text":"他們要把它拼在一起拼在一起的結果不具備公務人員利用資格的未來就沒有辦法再被禁用了尤其是尤其是未來就算你因為你這個條文他們不會接受"},{"start":22026.303,"end":22053.542,"text":"因為第4條行政院也有版本就不一樣了不是說您提的我也是同意支持但我想聽一下就針對外長他們就講一下沒有關係好簡單說明說吧陳議員委員這是人事總署啊對啊就你們不好意思"},{"start":22054.807,"end":22063.905,"text":"阿你也發聲一下一直就不知道你是誰公主今天就到這邊就好了他們再溝通一下他們再去溝通一下"},{"start":22066.167,"end":22071.851,"text":"我剛不是講他們的條文跟他們的條文行政院版的條文就不是就就他們剛都講過了嗯"},{"start":22098.928,"end":22125.046,"text":"誰要說明主席各位我是人事總署的代表針對陳英文剛剛提的那個地方跟大家說明一下依照現在目前10月底的那個離島的一個統計資料剛剛陳英文有提到是說原住民在三離島的話目前是2307人"},{"start":22127.487,"end":22149.32,"text":"整個離島的話人口總是26萬人所以他的那個比例的話只有佔0.87%而已那如果就勞動力人口總數來看的話原住民的話是1935人然後離島的話是95000多人所以他這樣一算下來的話勞動力人口原住民的部分也只有0.99%"},{"start":22151.081,"end":22168.207,"text":"那我們現在規定是說至少要一趴好那我們先看目前狀況目前的話是連五類人員五類人員先排除掉那個就是離島三縣市目前根據我們的統計資料離島三縣市目前只有三個"},{"start":22169.708,"end":22181.579,"text":"五類人員只有三個好那離島三縣市他主要的公務人員的來源有兩個一個就是地方特考另外一個是就是未來考試院已經要推的離島特考那"},{"start":22182.25,"end":22209.988,"text":"地方特考跟離島特考幾乎公務員部分都是由當地的人在考那除非是說我們原住民有邏輯在在離島站線室而且他們也願意去考所謂的離島特考或者是地方特考才有辦法進到公部門那另外一塊離島最多的話就是警消人力那警消的人力又涉及到那個警察特考消防特考那個部分的話可能又是屬於專業的所以"},{"start":22212.009,"end":22231.652,"text":"目前的狀況並沒有說否定原住民優秀的原住民可以進到公部門可是目前的狀況的話就是來源會比較少那如果我們硬要定了一個數字在那邊的話可能對於離島三縣市未來的用人會比較有一點緊張啦以上說明"},{"start":22234.393,"end":22250.771,"text":"這個其實不是只有公務人員而已就是還有這個我們特別看了那個約聘人員約聘五類約聘等一下我看一下對你們那個部分也要看一下我們看的不太一樣"},{"start":22258.652,"end":22273.677,"text":"那我還是覺得我們還是要再討論好不好因為我覺得每個委員的版本其實也都不一樣那行政單位這邊都有不同的說法那就是讓哲齊我們再來做討論那他們有充分的討論之後我們再來選就比較好一點那個陳委員因為你沒有去看行政院的版本"},{"start":22284.312,"end":22291.89,"text":"他要把這個公務人員跟非公務人員併在一起算了而不是在那個離島不離島的問題了啦"},{"start":22294.245,"end":22317.962,"text":"所以他是把併在一起算了他就不同意單獨列了所以這個部分重點在這裡所以這個樓昭偉還有莊委員才會說這個再繼續溝通盡速的溝通所以這個部分就是這樣好 各位有沒有意見"},{"start":22319.298,"end":22326.063,"text":"那我們就如召委跟中衛選委員就說這個令定期審查好謝謝"},{"start":22354.514,"end":22369.964,"text":"討論事項第二案原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案所列議案令定期繼續審查討論事項第三案姓名條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":22373.346,"end":22395.224,"text":"令定期繼續審查本市會議議事錄授權由由召集委員依然確定請問各位委員有沒有異議我們就確定本市議程處理完畢"},{"start":22397.975,"end":22398.175,"text":"現在上會"},{"start":22421.539,"end":22433.576,"text":"第16屆立法院第11屆立法院第12屆立法院第13屆立法院第14屆立法院第15屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院"},{"start":22438.001,"end":22444.264,"text":"第16屆立法委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":22465.255,"end":22468.946,"text":"第16屆立法院第12屆立法院議員委員會主任委員會主任委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"148983","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148983","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720295d385738a682fce592351fad24fff329c986728e607a032205e24b27dc4653105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何志偉","委員發言時間":"12:43:12 - 12:58:24","影片長度":"00:15:12","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":912,"end_time":"2023-12-11T12:58:24+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T12:43:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1177,"blocks":[["何委員志偉：（12時43分）謝謝主席、謝謝召委。我們是不是先有請我們部長還有經濟部連署長。"],["主席：邱部長請，還有產業發展署連署長請。"],["邱部長國正：何委員好。"],["何委員志偉：部長，還有我們經濟部的署長，我想今天有個臨時提案有討論到無人機的部分，的確當時候在2022年8月31號金門這些無人機的滋擾非常的討厭、非常的幼稚、非常的無聊，但是這些對於民心來講，它會造成一些不安定，甚至對中國解放軍等等更加地反彈。問題來了，現在已經是2023年的12月了，距離當時候金門的這個滋擾事件1年3個月，那我們的無人機反制系統，現在當然我們有把這干擾槍放上去，後來母法也即將三讀。我問一個問題就好，我們的無人機反制系統什麼時候會上路？什麼時候會在外島？什麼時候可以完成？這個部分經濟部有沒有答案？國防部有沒有答案？能不能押一個時間點，可以嗎？"],["邱部長國正：上回我記得召委有提這問題，我想一個禮拜以內，我們中科院它以現有的去做一個補強，所以現在中科院如果數量夠的話，我們可以先做；至於要立案、要做研發、要做合作、採購等等後面照走，但我不指望那個期限，我們可以來補強的立刻補強。"],["何委員志偉：好，我們無人機的反制系統請部長這邊可不可以給我大概的一個時間也好。"],["邱部長國正：中科院，你們覺得大概要多久可以把它給……"],["主席：張院長請。"],["張院長忠誠：根據後續國防規劃，總共26臺外島的，目前是113年13臺、114年14臺，如果沒錯的話……"],["陳參謀長建義：13、13。"],["張院長忠誠：報告委員，先看國防部的指導，我們絕對可以配合，國防部現在還是要委外嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：對。"],["張院長忠誠：還是跟委員報告一下。"],["陳參謀長建義：跟委員報告，無人機反制系統目前我們正在會同採購室和相關……"],["何委員志偉：沒關係，程序我不管，我問的是時間，時間就是勝利喔！"],["陳參謀長建義：因為它的期程是113、114，這個目前會按照……"],["何委員志偉：我等一下質詢時間會多增加2分鐘。"],["陳參謀長建義：會按照期限來走。"],["何委員志偉：對，期限是什麼？"],["陳參謀長建義：113年13套、114年也是13套，總共是26套。"],["何委員志偉：所以明年的什麼時候？"],["陳參謀長建義：到明年年底。"],["何委員志偉：明年年底才會好，還是？"],["陳參謀長建義：它的期程就是113年要完成13套……"],["何委員志偉：我的理解啦、我的理解啦！不能拖這麼久，這樣子一拖會變2年的時間，所以我們今天具體要求，明年3月份有沒有辦法好？4月份有沒有辦法好？"],["陳參謀長建義：跟委員報告，無人機反制系統……"],["何委員志偉：我的認知是這樣子啦！剛剛部長回應非常的精準，他說中科院這邊先去擋著、在那邊先補上去，之後什麼研發等等的後續再講，我的理解是這樣子，如果沒有錯的話，是不是這樣子？"],["邱部長國正：我……"],["何委員志偉：所以換句話說，在民意的要求下即刻就可以上路嗎？"],["邱部長國正：是，我跟委員報告，大概他們還不瞭解，因為我跟中科院那天會後，我馬上跟他們商量，我講現在有什麼、有多少？如果可以的話就先出去，後面程序照走。"],["何委員志偉：好，那我期待今年農曆年前，基本上可不可以全面上路，好不好？不可以？"],["張院長忠誠：報告委員，這樣子喔！因為原來這個……"],["何委員志偉：這個事情已經發生這麼久了喔！"],["張院長忠誠：對，我因為院裡面……"],["何委員志偉：給我一個時間、給我一個時間？"],["張院長忠誠：我院裡面可以接手，就是現在……"],["何委員志偉：給我一個時間？"],["張院長忠誠：對，就是今年，我今年現有的6套可以馬上供應外島，但是因為中科院還有包括……"],["何委員志偉：沒有關係，今天我也退讓一點點，外島好多個，我現在就是首重金門。"],["張院長忠誠：對，我外島現在可以提供6部，6部我現在已經完成的。"],["何委員志偉：嗯。"],["張院長忠誠：4部或是6部，因為有兩部……會後再跟您報告，因為這個很重要，也許在本島要用，最快4部就可以先上。"],["何委員志偉：4部先上是什麼時候？"],["張院長忠誠：對，就是我已經完成了。"],["何委員志偉：已經完成了在哪裡？"],["張院長忠誠：大概年初就可以送過去了。"],["何委員志偉：年初、年初……"],["張院長忠誠：馬上可以提供、馬上可以提供。"],["何委員志偉：好，年初金門全面可以防護好，是不是？"],["張院長忠誠：就是4部。"],["何委員志偉：4部？"],["張院長忠誠：4部到6部。"],["何委員志偉：金門的部分提供4部到6部？"],["張院長忠誠：對。"],["何委員志偉：什麼時候、什麼時候？"],["張院長忠誠：如果要連安裝大概在第一季吧！"],["何委員志偉：第一季？"],["張院長忠誠：我現在已經完成了，要配合安裝。"],["何委員志偉：就是4月份之前？"],["張院長忠誠：明年初一定可以完成。"],["何委員志偉：明年初？明年初什麼時候？3月份或4月份？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，好不好？"],["何委員志偉：嗯。"],["邱部長國正：委員不要問干擾槍要幾月幾號啦！我跟各位也要報告……"],["何委員志偉：沒關係，我時間有限。"],["邱部長國正：我們現在早就規定了，外離島只要營區上空有這種飛機的話……"],["何委員志偉：反制系統、反制系統。"],["邱部長國正：就是直接射擊打掉啦！這飛機也不用……"],["何委員志偉：你要看得到它，因為有時候是飛鳥、有時候其他的物質不知道。"],["邱部長國正：那當然是要判斷嘛！"],["何委員志偉：好，反制系統今年第一季會好，是不是？"],["張院長忠誠：是。"],["何委員志偉：好，謝謝！那麼我們相關同仁先請回座，部長請先留著。部長，今天……"],["主席：你講的是反制系統，還是干擾槍？"],["何委員志偉：反制系統。"],["主席：反制系統中科院有，幹嘛還要找？就直接招標就好了。"],["何委員志偉：好，反制系統，反制系統今年年初會好。","來，部長，今天由我們國內自己主持極機密的國防軍事會談、會議以及固安計畫，前前後後大概有10人在押，我必須以一個負責任的執政黨說這是國防部跟國安系統有在控管，有在控管才會查得到、抓得到，後續根據我的瞭解，他們拿到的這些資料也都是舊版的，沒有更新，裡面判決書跑出來，什麼多少錢、多少錢，他們是在喊價格，其實某種程度是針對特定族群做一些心戰，動搖我國國軍還有國人的民心。我先就教一下，這些狀況發生了，我要問的事情是不是請政戰回應一下？資料是極機密，他只是校級而已，是如何拿到資料的？這個部分知道嗎？校級的人如何取得將級的會議資料？這個部分可不可以說明？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員簡單報告，我們很多工作都有一定的規定，有程序，嚴格講起來就是沒有照這個程序，他應該要直接交給誰然後歸檔，可能中間轉發給一個人，叫他歸檔，這個當中有出了問題。我們是很沉痛的，我們要檢討。"],["何委員志偉：政戰要不要說明一下？"],["陳局長育琳：報告委員，誠如剛剛部長說的，在程序方面我們確實有一些瑕疵。另外，這個案子高等法院也在依法辦理，會後我們是不是派員跟委員說明？"],["何委員志偉：我問一下，這些資料都是舊版，對不對？沒有用了嘛！還是應該怎麼說會比較好？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我並不認為是新舊的問題，因為不論新的、舊的，臺澎的防衛作戰就那麼大的地方，再怎麼調……整體來講，我並不界定在新舊的問題，而是國防部真的要痛定思痛，因為這可以講是一個奇恥大辱。"],["何委員志偉：當時是怎麼發現的？"],["陳局長育琳：官兵檢舉。"],["何委員志偉：這一套系統我們內部到底要怎麼辦？","不好意思，召委，我要借一點時間。我們看一下兵推，好不好？部長，我近期有到國防大學還有國防安全研究院考察，也很謝謝國防部，身為召委，當時我要求把海鯤號、F-16V還有無人機三個元素放進我們的兵推裡面，的確後續的結論等等，我們發現兵推之後，我國的國防實力還有嚇阻能力的確大幅度增加。根據我的瞭解，在其他國防先進的國家裡面，以美國為例，三軍官校當中兵推課程是標準的配置。目前我看到我們臺灣、中華民國，兵推要等任官後，在軍官的正規班才開始。我要問一下國防大學，國防大學有沒有自己的兵推系統？"],["李教育長成中：跟委員報告，我們國防大學的兵推系統是用JTLS系統，是跟國防部一起共用的。"],["何委員志偉：我們自己沒有嘛！"],["李教育長成中：是。"],["何委員志偉：我再問一下，我們對照一下美軍好了，他們從上到……它畢竟是最大的系統之一。美軍的人才在軍校，18歲到22歲就有在培養，並且讓他們有戰略跟戰術的思維。我們的軍校的確是培育下一波國家重要的國軍人才，當然很多國軍會說拔草、掃地等等，可能只是一百項工作的其中一項，我的認知是，當我們的國軍從18歲、很年輕就知道未來怎麼決策，這個國家……我離題一下，我們在講智商（IQ）等等，不是他腦部開發了幾趴，而是他的組織能力是強的，決策能力是強的。未來我們的軍校是否可以有自己的兵推系統，從很年輕的時候就知道怎麼樣決策？如此在未來的時間裡，他們一起長大，他們也會有聯合作戰意識。這個部分可不可以就教部長，這樣的建議國防部會怎麼看待？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，委員這個建議很好。事實上，我現在要說明一下，所謂兵推是一個統稱，真正的推演有沙盤推演、兵棋推演、狀況推演。剛才委員講在軍校裡面就推演，這絕對可以做。"],["何委員志偉：好。"],["邱部長國正：我們要做任何一個科目之前，哪怕是在地板上擺幾個石頭也叫狀況推演，也叫兵棋推演，現在部隊裡面在做了，哪怕今天要打靶，靶溝勤務哪一些人站出來，這也是一個訓練，所以剛剛委員這個建議很好，我們隨時強化。"],["何委員志偉：另外一件事情，我跟部長討論未來的政策及教育系統。我理解國防大學現在用的真的是高技術性的，應該叫JTLS系統，沒有錯。再看下一個 PowerPoint頁面，好不好？我們有去國防安全研究院，你看一下左邊跟右邊，這是zoom out之後，非常遙遠的看，他們將任何參數放進之後，整個圖是會動的。我認為18歲到22歲的年輕人看相對應的兵推等等，其實會演繹出來，甚至很清楚地知道動態，因為它很即時，非常的擬真，就如同我當時建議飛官用模擬器去看待，因為越接近真實他越理解，包含他的組織、邏輯等等，還有有趣性也會增加。請看一下左下角這個框是各國使用的情形，還有這些兵推的軟體等等，是否也幫軍校爭取一下？我們是否可以……畢竟18歲到22歲，你要他看臺灣整島或整個印太，以那個規模（scale）兵推或者沙盤推演太大了，有些東西可以小部分、小部分拆解，讓他知道應該如何跟同僚甚至不同的聯隊、軍種協同，以及他們之間的合作關係、聯合關係是什麼。部長可不可以考慮？對於這個意見，您的想法呢？"],["邱部長國正：這個是很好的意見，委員表達出來的是每個層級不一樣，每個系統有不同的層級，剛剛講的JTLS已經到戰區系統，對一個排級或連級以下的單位來講，他用不到那個，所以現在各國都有手錶一樣的，上面就是兵力如何、配備如何、在哪裡，我們也朝這方面發展，但不是一蹴可幾，部隊裡面有一些已經在做了，有助我們掌握狀況，狀況掌握好了，用兵自然就好用，比較正確。"],["何委員志偉：更加現代化的國軍、更加先進的國軍，某個程度當然取決於我們手上持有的這些器械或者是用具（equipment），但是更重要的是腦部裡面的思維、邏輯、決策力還有參謀的能量，好不好？今天有兩個提議，謝謝部長都接受，感謝你。謝謝召委，謝謝同仁。"],["邱部長國正：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝何召委，何召委的意思是國防大學的兵推不生動，商用兵推比較生動。"],["何委員志偉：我們那一天有去，那一天去看就是點跟線這樣子而已，但是那是真正的專業。既然是教學用，應該……"],["主席：多用商用的兵推。"],["何委員志偉：對。"],["主席：國防院裡面的比較好。"],["何委員志偉：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝何委員。","接下請陳椒華委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":0.03096875,"end":0.4697187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1.3303437500000002,"end":1.8534687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7.11846875,"end":14.121593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14.610968750000001,"end":15.488468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16.16346875,"end":17.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17.90159375,"end":18.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18.05346875,"end":18.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":19.63971875,"end":21.293468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25.57971875,"end":26.457218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26.727218750000002,"end":46.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":46.673468750000005,"end":58.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":58.924718750000004,"end":82.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":82.24596875,"end":85.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":86.22846875,"end":87.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.48971875000001,"end":97.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.73721875000001,"end":114.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":114.54471875,"end":121.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.02471875,"end":124.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":124.28159375000001,"end":124.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":124.33221875000001,"end":124.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.85534375,"end":125.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.53346875,"end":133.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.93409375000002,"end":146.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.00846875000002,"end":144.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.43409375000002,"end":155.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.24284375000002,"end":167.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":164.56221875,"end":165.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.42659375000002,"end":176.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":176.12159375000002,"end":176.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.61096875,"end":176.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":176.62784375,"end":178.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.60659375,"end":186.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":186.65159375000002,"end":186.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.95534375000003,"end":194.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":186.97221875000002,"end":187.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":187.22534375,"end":187.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":193.84034375000002,"end":194.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.03846875000002,"end":198.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":197.85659375,"end":207.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":208.13346875000002,"end":211.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.98971875,"end":211.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":211.27221875,"end":211.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.55909375000002,"end":211.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":211.59284375000001,"end":211.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.62659375,"end":211.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":211.77846875,"end":212.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":212.36909375000002,"end":218.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.66409375,"end":215.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":218.64659375000002,"end":235.47096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.89784375000002,"end":230.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.91471875000002,"end":231.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","st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out之後這是非常遙遠的看他們在做任何的參數放進去之後其實他這整個圖是會動的那我認為從對一個18歲到22歲的年輕人他們在看相對應的兵推等等的其實他會演繹出來"},{"start":765.757,"end":786.609,"text":"甚至他很清楚的知道他動態他很及時非常的擬真就如同我當時候建議我們的這個很多非官他是用那個模擬器這樣子去看待因為越接近真實他越理解包含他的組織邏輯等等包含還有這個有趣性也會增加"},{"start":787.389,"end":812.618,"text":"所以我在這邊講請看一下我們這個左下角這個框是各國使用的還有這些兵推的軟體等等是否這邊也幫軍校這邊爭取一下下我們是否可以因為畢竟18歲到20歲你要他看臺灣整島或整個印太東西的規模那個skill去做兵推或者沙盤推演太大了但是有些東西可以小部分小部分拆解讓他知道"},{"start":813.358,"end":834.05,"text":"我應該如何跟我的同僚甚至不同的聯隊甚至不同的軍種他們之間的合作關係聯合的關係是什麼這邊部長可不可以這個意見您的想法呢這很好意見我就想說委員所這個表達出來這個是每個層級不一樣每個系統有不同層級就剛剛講的JETOS"},{"start":835.711,"end":850.148,"text":"它已經到戰區系統了所以對一個我們排級或聯席以下單位來講的話它用不到那個所以現在各國都有一個手錶一樣這上面就是兵力如何配備如何在哪裡"},{"start":851.109,"end":851.469,"text":"三、審查本院委員"},{"start":872.826,"end":874.527,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":891.391,"end":891.911,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"}]}},{"id":"148982","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148982","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720295c49baac9895ff5d92351fad24fff329c986728e607a03220436e44e2df3ed965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉世芳","委員發言時間":"13:08:01 - 13:22:47","影片長度":"00:14:46","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":886,"end_time":"2023-12-11T13:22:47+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T13:08:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1326,"blocks":[["劉委員世芳：（13時8分）謝謝召委，現在時間比較晚了，我可不可以請一下部長，還有總督察長、法律事務司、聯三，還有訓練參謀、國防大學跟中科院？因為我要問三個問題。"],["主席：好，通通上來，總督察長室李中將，還有法律司……"],["劉委員世芳：請自己過來，好嗎？我先問一下部長，部長剛剛蔡適應委員有提到，臺灣高等檢察署的新聞稿有提到陳姓被告10人，現在只有一位叫做陳裕炘，他雖然是一個退役人員，但是是退役商人，請問一下你瞭不瞭解他有沒有被通緝？"],["邱部長國正：我知道這10人當中有3個是已經退的，7個是現役的。"],["劉委員世芳：我知道，就你所瞭解的部分，這個陳裕炘有沒有被通緝？"],["邱部長國正：有通緝。"],["劉委員世芳：有通緝了嘛？"],["邱部長國正：通緝了，有的好像已經跑到對岸。"],["劉委員世芳：是，有通緝，所以這個部分看起來，不管是7個人或是10個人，最後到法院判決的時候，應該都會觸犯到貪污治罪條例，甚至國安法，或者是情工法。我要請教一下，部長雖然可以看到這個是11月27日臺灣高等檢察署所發布的新聞稿，但是我們略為知道，不管是特種的像化學兵或是陸海空等等相關極精密的國防部內部資料，請問我們後續的補救方案或是亡羊補牢的方案，現在開始啟動了沒有？"],["邱部長國正：我們同步來啟動，因為當初這個案子一出以後，我們有很多要補強的，也就是人家講的損害管控……"],["劉委員世芳：是補強還是廢掉？我知道損害管控很重要，這種風險的部分。但是我要跟你講，這裡面有好多是極機密的部分，極機密要按照國防部內部的程序，還是必須要由譬如下面不管是哪一個軍種再上上來，但是這樣子的機制會不會太慢？我要跟部長提到的就是，因為這裡面太多極機密的部分，有沒有可能馬上先通案處理？譬如先把它撤掉或是先把所謂的舊案全部都一起否決掉，然後趕快重新擬定新的方案，而不是只有換湯不換藥。"],["邱部長國正：我們當然要同步在做。"],["劉委員世芳：你知道我的意思，那你什麼時候可以完成我所說的？依高檢署所發布的新聞稿，我相信你們從他的起訴判決書裡面一定會瞭解到國防部內部到底有哪一些極機密、機密，不管是陸海空三軍哪一個部分受到影響，現在要趕快亡羊補牢，部長，你可以答應我什麼時候可以把它完成補強的工作？"],["李總督察長兆明：報告委員，針對所有洩密的資料，剛剛前面已經有委員指導過，我們跟地方法院拿到起訴書相關的證據以後，會做成一個清單，然後將所有洩密出去的計畫全部修訂。"],["劉委員世芳：要作廢，對不對？"],["李總督察長兆明：是。"],["劉委員世芳：先作廢再修訂。我剛剛問的是什麼時候可以完成，這是你們內部的行政程序可以做到……"],["李總督察長兆明：這個在今年……"],["劉委員世芳：不需要經過臺灣高檢署同意啊！"],["李總督察長兆明：是，報告委員，這個在明年第一季就可以完成。"],["劉委員世芳：明年第一季？就表示從目前開始，你要3個月才完成，3個月裡面如果有任何其他境外的勢力來了，太慢了吧？"],["李總督察長兆明：是。"],["劉委員世芳：部長，極機密的部分可不可以儘快來完成？"],["李總督察長兆明：可以、可以。"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，我們只要有這個名稱以後，馬上就截止或作廢，這是可以很快做的。"],["劉委員世芳：對、是。"],["邱部長國正：拿到後就一個命令下去，他們就去追查及作廢了，其他也補強……"],["劉委員世芳：是，所以你可不可以就在這個禮拜內把極機密的部分趕快儘量把它截止或作廢？"],["邱部長國正：可以，我跟委員報告，我們只要拿到相關資料知道名稱以後，一個禮拜絕對綽綽有餘了。"],["劉委員世芳：一個禮拜喔！麻煩到時候拜託……"],["邱部長國正：只要我們跟法務單位拿到資料以後下命令去追，一個禮拜綽綽有餘。"],["劉委員世芳：新聞稿已經出來了，國防部是受害者嘛！所以儘量趕快找到相關資料，好嗎？"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["劉委員世芳：這是第一個。第二個我要問的就是葛明德這一位國防大學的教授。跟現役軍官遭吸收部分相關的首長可以先回去。我想問一下國防大學這個部分，他將研究成果跟中國籍人士申請專利，請問國防大學還有中科院怎麼看待這件事？請回應一下。"],["李教育長成中：跟委員報告，目前他跟對岸廠商申請專利的……"],["劉委員世芳：申請專利怎麼會是跟對岸廠商？一定是對岸的官方廠商機構，哪有去跟對岸的廠商申請專利？"],["李教育長成中：沒有……"],["劉委員世芳：你來看一下，這裡面的部分就是有關電鍍法製備高披覆性抗沾黏類陶瓷的部分，這個不是做碗，你要搞清楚啊！你要知道我們在國科會剛剛通過了幾個國家核心關鍵技術，有相關這些技術屬國防部主管就很多，包括碳纖維、碳高溫耐燒蝕技術等等這些，所以事實上你們不能把它等閒視之，覺得好像只是為了一點點錢，然後就申請中國專利，你們要搞清楚狀況。"],["李教育長成中：跟委員報告，媒體上面那些專利事實上跟我們學校持有的專利是沒有相關的，有些我們還在查證中，有些是不屬實的。"],["劉委員世芳：表示你還在查核當中，那我再問一下中科院，你瞭不瞭解？中科院也有若干的委託計畫給這位葛明德教授，我剛所說的用電鍍法製備高披覆性抗沾黏類陶瓷鍍膜技術，還有先進的環保鉻碳類陶瓷製程技術等等，有沒有牽涉到中科院自己內部認定是屬於關鍵技術或是屬於國防機密？"],["張院長忠誠：跟委員報告，這幾年來我們查了一下，葛明德跟我們中科院有14個案子。"],["劉委員世芳：對。"],["張院長忠誠：那14個案子都是基礎科學研究，也就是剛才有委員詢答，我們講了，基礎關鍵是依照三級的TRL，就是技術備便水準，所以這14個案子我們這兩天特別漏夜來查，它沒有涉及到機密。"],["劉委員世芳：好，但是這裡面是不是還有包含3個110年到112年先進系統工程研究中心？他是不是其中一個？"],["張院長忠誠：這個就不是中科院的範疇了……"],["劉委員世芳：請再查核清楚，好嗎？國防部或者是國防大學再查核清楚，有14案，這14案裡面是葛明德先生或是葛明德教授有涉案的部分，我們現在擔心的就是核心關鍵技術，如果沒有把它查清楚的話，你會認為只是一般的學研，甚至他跑到中國去申請專利的時候，申請完專利變成中國就可以無限被授權使用，我覺得這個非常糟糕。部長，您聽到這樣子的部分，你的指示是什麼？最近有沒有什麼樣子的方式來指示中科院或者國防大學？"],["邱部長國正：委員剛剛講的，我們已經交代了，不管是中科院也好或國防大學理工學院分別去查，但我們同步在做，第一個做的事情是完全把他移送法辦，原本他們還講要查到某個地步再移送，我想這個不用等，這兩個工作是同步在做。"],["劉委員世芳：好，就是部長已經指示乾脆移送法辦，不用再經過內部的行政調查，是嗎？"],["邱部長國正：不是，有行政調查，但移送法辦以後我們一樣要走我們的程序。"],["劉委員世芳：就是同步進行就對了？"],["邱部長國正：對，同步。"],["劉委員世芳：好，瞭解。同步進行，我想這樣才能夠真正遏止我們的關鍵技術外流，好嗎？"],["邱部長國正：是的。"],["劉委員世芳：部長，你指示要移送法辦的時間是什麼時候？"],["邱部長國正：我昨天就講了，禮拜六我知道以後打電話給國防大學校長，我有跟他講了。"],["劉委員世芳：是，但是12月8號為什麼國防大學自己對外說成立專案小組啟動調查？表示這是行政調查。"],["邱部長國正：所以那天……"],["劉委員世芳：國防大學有沒有收到部長的指示？"],["李教育長成中：跟委員報告，早上媒播出來之後，我們就立刻成立專案調查小組，然後這一整天就開始調查，然後也在研擬相關後續的作為。"],["劉委員世芳：有關移送法辦這件事情是由國防部移送法辦還是國防大學移送法辦？到底是誰？"],["邱部長國正：我要求他們。"],["劉委員世芳：是，所以教育長你所回應的是啟動調查，這就是我所說的，這叫做行政調查，你到底有沒有按照國防部長的指示移送法辦？"],["李教育長成中：有，確實有按照部長的指示來做……"],["劉委員世芳：函送法辦嘛！公文什麼時候出去的？"],["李教育長成中：今天上午。"],["劉委員世芳：今天上午才出去嘛？"],["李教育長成中：今天上午函送。"],["劉委員世芳：所以部長昨天指示，你們今天上午出去，這樣算是快，是不是？"],["李教育長成中：因為昨天是週日，我們已經有同仁在作業，今天早上是上班日，今天上午就會送走……"],["劉委員世芳：就會送走是表示還沒送，還是送了？"],["李教育長成中：已經函送出去了，已經批示發文了。"],["劉委員世芳：可以對外公布函送出去的時間讓我知道一下，好嗎？"],["李教育長成中：是。"],["劉委員世芳：再來，我想要請教部長，最近這兩天包括某個媒體也都在批評我們立法院即將二、三讀的軍事營區安全維護條例裡面是否涉及侵害到一般尤其是有關攝錄影這個部分，後來我們來查證一下，就是說在原來我們的法律有個要塞堡壘地帶法第四條第一款也是一樣，沒有受到國防部特別命令的話，不得為測量、攝影等等，如果有違反的話，其有期徒刑是一年到七年，但是同樣很類似的部分，放在軍事營區安全維護條例草案第六條是「非經軍事機關許可」。我是不是可以直接請沈中將來回應一下，請問這兩個之間的差別在哪裡？競合在哪裡？為什麼會對於有一些軍事迷有興趣、不一定涉及國家安全的人會對這個有些反彈？是不是請沈中將可以回答一下？"],["沈司長世偉：是，報告委員，跟委員簡單說明，要塞堡壘地帶法規範的是要塞堡壘，要塞堡壘必須經過公告，現在全部地區大概有22處，不是所有的營區都是要塞堡壘，而軍事營區安全維護條例所保護的客體是營區，我們作戰部門有概略統計過，大概有上千個營區。要塞堡壘地帶法第四條規範的罰則，就像委員剛剛講的，可能有到徒刑的處罰，而軍事營區安全維護條例第六條所規範的罰則，原則上是只有行政罰，並沒有到所謂刑罰的處罰。"],["劉委員世芳：是，除非他是……"],["沈司長世偉：程度不一樣。"],["劉委員世芳：對、對，但是為什麼大家會反彈就在於你所說的，要塞堡壘地帶法所牽涉到的範圍比較小、比較少。"],["沈司長世偉：是。"],["劉委員世芳：但是軍事營區的安全，就像你所說會有一千多個營區，很多人就會懷疑，出了這個鐵圍籬之外，我如果對著空中上面拍攝F-16或是我對著大樓上面拍攝，譬如海軍的活動等等，是不是已經影響到軍事營區安全維護條例？這個怎麼辦？"],["沈司長世偉：報告委員，單純這種對著天空拍攝飛機飛行的概況，或是拍攝戰車從馬路經過，通通都不在規範的範圍之內。"],["劉委員世芳：我建議沈中將要對外說清楚。"],["沈司長世偉：是。"],["劉委員世芳：臺灣也有很多軍事迷，他們純粹是軍事迷或是很多軍事攝影雜誌也很希望拍攝，尤其像最近海鯤號受到民眾的支持，滿意度非常高，我們自己對內，不管是這個機制的保存也好，或是保防，都做得還算不錯，如果我們把軍安條例無限擴大，讓他覺得拿個攝影機就會受到影響，甚至會有人拿著槍出來趕他走，這個部分如果沒有說清楚講明白會很糟糕，尤其是「非經軍事機關許可」，就我瞭解應該是要該營區裡面的指揮官許可才可以，是不是？"],["沈司長世偉：是。"],["劉委員世芳：還是門哨就可以許可？"],["沈司長世偉：如果是拍攝的相關許可的話，我們在後面會訂定7個辦法，也就是有7個子法。另外，哪些地方能拍不能拍或是哪些地方有管制，會有4個公告。該有的法規命令、該有的公告，我們都會按程序來做，誰有權許可、在什麼樣的營區由什麼樣的人可以許可等等，以及如果發覺有人違規該怎麼樣去通報、該怎麼樣請示，都會在相關的法規命令裡面來規範。"],["劉委員世芳：因為這裡面也牽涉到電視臺或者是其他的媒體，他們也很關心這個部分，所以未來要公告的時候，主管機關是放在國防部來主管，還是放在行政院主管會比較好？"],["沈司長世偉：報告……"],["劉委員世芳：因為行政院在主管的過程當中，他們會比較考慮到涉及到言論自由的部分，譬如電視臺或者是媒體等等，他們的管制方向跟國防部還會有一些必須要溝通的部分，如果純粹由國防部自己就軍安維護條例來當主管機關，會不會讓人家覺得有差池？會覺得國防部自己不願意受到任何其他媒體或者是正常媒體宣傳的競合作為？"],["沈司長世偉：跟委員報告，我們將來訂定法規命令，行政院也有規範，我們現在都在草擬，將來的法規命令要正式準備進行法規程序之前也會先預告，預告完了，行政院對這些也都會有指導，完全都要行政院同意了之後，最後要行政院核定之後才會生效執行。"],["劉委員世芳：你不能這樣講，法律不是這樣子的。立法院通過之後，行政院也只能按照立法院所通過的法條來處理。"],["沈司長世偉：是、是。"],["劉委員世芳：你不能說立法院通過之後，行政院又可以另外再下指導棋，不能這樣！"],["沈司長世偉：不會、不會，我們是照著法律授權……"],["劉委員世芳：你是學法的，你應該知道。對，要法律授權……"],["沈司長世偉：對，我們是照著法律授權的範圍……"],["劉委員世芳：所以法律授權放在行政院來訂定子法或者是其他行政命令會比較好，還是放在國防部會比較好？"],["沈司長世偉：報告委員，應該是放在國防部，這個我們先前就有討論過，我們是主管機關，由我們來訂定……"],["劉委員世芳：我先跟你提醒，因為再接著下來可能在四黨協商的時候，這個議題還是會被提出來，如果我們考量這個時間上的因素，希望趕快通過的話，恐怕對每個不同黨團之間的溝通或者是對外界的溝通要說清楚講明白，最後二、三讀通過才比較不會有其他的疑慮，好嗎？"],["沈司長世偉：是，我們會持續去說明。"],["劉委員世芳：好，謝謝，謝謝部長，謝謝各位。"],["沈司長世偉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：跟劉委員說明一下，那個協商過了，只是一週內要提7個辦法跟4個公告出來……"],["劉委員世芳：這個我知道！"],["主席：所以也請儘速提出來，我們再來詳細討論，就執行面當中，大家會比較質疑一點點……"],["劉委員世芳：二、三讀還沒有……"],["主席：對，二、三讀還沒有。"],["劉委員世芳：我剛剛講的是二、三讀。"],["主席：是，好，謝謝。","接下來蘇治芬、蘇治芬，蘇治芬委員不在。","翁重鈞、翁重鈞、翁重鈞，翁重鈞委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇，王鴻薇委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘，蔡易餘委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員除不在場者外，都已經發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有陳明文委員、蔡易餘委員、馬文君委員、趙天麟委員及陳超明委員提出書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復聯席各委員，並副知聯席會。今日委員口頭質詢未答復部分及要求補充資料者，請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供給各個委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":0.03096875,"end":5.599718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.94596875,"end":4.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5.835968750000001,"end":16.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.37596875,"end":7.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.704093750000002,"end":13.919093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.509718750000001,"end":15.285968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17.31096875,"end":18.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":19.47096875,"end":30.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.09534375,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.64346875,"end":23.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.31409375,"end":25.039718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":30.60846875,"end":33.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":33.10596875,"end":43.619093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.564093750000005,"end":50.774093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":50.369093750000005,"end":55.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.212843750000005,"end":51.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.68471875,"end":59.734718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":56.95034375,"end":58.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":58.62096875,"end":94.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.80096875000001,"end":105.73596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":103.42409375000001,"end":122.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.69784375,"end":106.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.69346875000001,"end":108.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":123.38721875,"end":140.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.05971875,"end":143.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":140.61659375000002,"end":165.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.26659375,"end":168.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.79784375,"end":188.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.50659375,"end":169.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":188.11971875,"end":196.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.31784375,"end":189.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.60409375,"end":194.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.70909375000002,"end":200.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":200.77596875,"end":207.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.90159375000002,"end":208.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":208.01534375,"end":208.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.33159375000002,"end":210.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":209.36534375000002,"end":215.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.20909375000002,"end":210.293468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"是啊,所以國防大學教育長你所回應的是你啟動調查,這就是我所說的,這叫行政調查啊那你到底有沒有按照國防部長的指示就是移送法辦有,有確實的按照部長的指示來做那個 安送法辦嘛,什麼時候出去的?公文今天上午今天上午才出去嘛今天上午會,是,今天上午請這個做寒送 所以部長昨天指示你們今天上午出去,這樣算是快,是不是?"},{"start":530.52,"end":539.514,"text":"昨天是週日我們已經有同仁在作業然後今天早上是上班日然後今天上午就會出手就會送走是表示還沒送還是送了?"},{"start":541.019,"end":543.6,"text":"最近這兩天包括某個媒體也都在批評就是說我們立法院即將二三讀的這個軍事營區安全維護條例裡面"},{"start":562.39,"end":577.262,"text":"是否為涉及就是說侵害到有一般尤其是什麼露營啊射露營這個部分後來我們來查證一下的部分就是說在原來啊我們那個法律有個要塞堡壘地帶法的地帶法的第四條第一款也是一樣"},{"start":577.862,"end":597.318,"text":"沒有受到國防部的特別命令的話不得為測量、攝影等等這些如果有違反的話呢它的有期徒刑是在一年到七年那但是呢同樣很類似的部分放在我們的軍事營區的安全而物條例裡面第六條的審查裡面是非經軍事居關許可我想我是不是可以直接請這個省中將來回應一下請問這兩個之間的差別在哪裡?競合在哪裡?"},{"start":602.622,"end":625.663,"text":"為什麼會有一些就是說對於軍事迷他們有興趣不一定涉及國家安全的人會對這個有些反彈是不是請沈中將可以來回答一下是報告委員跟委員做簡單的說明要塞堡壘地帶法它規範的是要塞堡壘要塞堡壘它必須經過公告那現在在我們全部地區大概有22處不是所有的營區都是要塞堡壘"},{"start":626.323,"end":649.617,"text":"那軍事營區安全維護條例它的保護的課題是營區我們作戰部門有概略統計過大概有上千個營區那藥材保理第二法第四條它規範的罰則就像委員剛剛講的它可能有到徒刑的處罰那軍事營區安全維護條例它第六條裡面所規範的罰則那個只有原來上面原則上是只有行政法並沒有到並沒有到所謂刑罰的處罰"},{"start":650.538,"end":653.642,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":670.282,"end":681.171,"text":"我如果對著空中上面拍攝F16或是我對著這個大樓上面拍攝譬如說我們海軍的活動等等這些那是不是已經影響到軍事營區安全維護的條例?這個怎麼辦?單純這種你對著天空拍攝這個飛機的飛行的概況或是說我們有戰車經過馬路的從馬路經過你拍攝這個這個通通都不在規範的範圍之內那我建議是"},{"start":695.903,"end":710.975,"text":"拜託省中將要對外說清楚,台灣也很多軍事迷,他們純粹是軍事迷或是我們很多的軍事攝影雜誌也很希望拍攝,尤其像我們最近海昆號其實受到這個民眾的支持滿意度是非常高,那我們自己對內"},{"start":712.076,"end":712.316,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":732.105,"end":749.168,"text":"尤其是非經濟事機關許可就我了解應該是說該營區裡面的指揮官要許可才可以是不是?還是門哨就可以許可?如果要拍攝相關的許可的話我們會在後面有定的有七個辦法有七個執法"},{"start":749.828,"end":774.468,"text":"另外哪些地方能拍不能拍或是哪些地方有管制有四個公告該有的法規命令該有的公告我們都會按著程序來做誰有權許可在什麼樣的營區有什麼樣的人可以做許可等等那如果發覺有人違規該怎麼樣去做通報該怎麼樣請示都會在相關的法規命令裡面來規範因為這裡面也牽涉到如果說是電視台或者是其他的媒體他們也會很關心這個部分"},{"start":776.73,"end":797.718,"text":"所以我們未來要公告的時候或是未來要主管機關放在還是放在國防部來主管還是放在行政院主管會比較好因為行政院在主管的過程當中他們會比較考慮到涉及到言論自由比如說是電視台或者是媒體等等這些他們的這個管制的方向會跟國防部還會有一些必須要溝通的"},{"start":798.038,"end":798.938,"text":"國防部會否不願意受到媒體宣傳禁核?"},{"start":815.424,"end":835.241,"text":"我跟委員報告我們將來定法規命令行政院也有規範我們現在都在朝你將來的法規命令要正式要準備要進行法規程序之前也會先做預告那預告完了行政院對這些也都會有點都會有指導完全都要行政院同意了之後最後才會行政院要核定你不能這樣講法律不是這樣子的"},{"start":835.922,"end":857.407,"text":"立法院通過之後,行政院也只能按照立法院所通過的法條來處理。你不能說立法院通過之後,我行政院可以另外再下指導期。不能這樣子。我們是照著法律授權。對,我們是照著法律授權的範圍。所以法律授權放在行政院執法或者是其他的行政命令的話會比較好,還是放在國防部會比較好?"},{"start":857.915,"end":881.413,"text":"二、報委應該是放在國防部這個我們先前就有討論過我們是主管機關有我們來定我先跟你提醒了因為再接著下來可能我們在四黨協商的時候呢這個議題還是會被提出來那如果我們考量這個時間上的因素希望趕快通過的話恐怕對每個不同的黨團之間的溝通或者是對外界的溝通要說清楚講明白最後二三度通過才比較不會有其他的疑慮好嗎我們會持續去說明謝謝部長謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"148976","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148976","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a7202985df5afa4620ed7992351fad24fff329c986728e607a0322f142c201840b90755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳椒華","委員發言時間":"12:58:33 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都是在法院審理都有判決的那在"},{"start":400.828,"end":402.31,"text":"議長,您現在講的在協調會都講了很多次,但是本期開會的時候,因為你一直沒有來開會,所以我要跟局長、跟部長也說,"},{"start":417.89,"end":435.567,"text":"這位國軍弟兄他也是後來發了很多次函給我們國防部說他是同意的他是同意的我再講三遍同意同意同意所以部長麻煩你再確認一下是不是可以再追回他是眷戶的眷改戶"},{"start":437.068,"end":450.017,"text":"簡單就是這樣。他原先是有意見,對我們卷改是有意見,但是後來他也發了非常多次的函,說明他是願意卷改的,他不是不同意。這樣了解嗎?"},{"start":451.462,"end":475.678,"text":"我們了解因為很多法規它有個期限對不對在你這個期限以內你答覆怎麼樣你就要秉持啊當然委員會講他已經好像改了我們也要改我們是公家機構多少人這個狀況一個一改我們前面法走過程序就別人也要否定好部長當然我們現在了解是不是請局長親自親自我們再來討論一下"},{"start":482.046,"end":495.031,"text":"看我們黃先生還有國安陸村有什麼問題那剛剛也答應說趕快發文那這位黃家雄弟兄我們是不是再討論一下可不可以再讓他追認他是眷改戶可以嗎"},{"start":497.061,"end":515.614,"text":"方委員,會後我再到辦公室跟您報告。那部長可以嗎?可以麻煩你也撥個心,就是也去關心一下這個案子。我們也不願意看到這位黃先生真的是也是活得很辛苦。我也不願意看到,我也很難過嘛。大家以前跑走一場。"},{"start":516.534,"end":518.115,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"}]}},{"id":"148974","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148974","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720297f888941cac4a0bd92351fad24fff329c986728e607a03226a92922fd67a804f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱臣遠","委員發言時間":"12:32:37 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12:43:08","影片長度":"00:10:31","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":631,"end_time":"2023-12-11T12:43:08+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T12:32:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1147,"blocks":[["邱委員臣遠：（12時32分）謝謝召委，我們邀請邱國正部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長國正：邱委員好。"],["邱委員臣遠：部長午安，9月下旬邱部長首度證實我國對大陸有偵蒐雷達跟國際情報的交流，可以清楚掌握到東南沿海的共軍動態。另外您上次也說，如果中共要對臺進行軍事行為，部隊必須事先大規模的調動，這部分一定會被偵測到，但是請問部長，我們目前這些作為是不是已經足夠爭取應變的時間，保障臺灣的安全？就目前在大選前夕，你現在所掌握的狀況。"],["邱部長國正：我們要看有沒有徵候，目前沒有什麼特別的徵候，他們有聯合軍演、聯合戰、戰備警巡都是週期性的，大概每個月都會有，我們掌握的就是這個，我們也不期望有什麼異常的狀況發生，所以我們持續密切注意。"],["邱委員臣遠：接續這個問題，對於昨天有某位副總統參選人提出當選之後要單向派軍事觀察員赴中國長住，以確保臺灣的安全，請問邱部長，您認為需不需要派觀察員長住大陸？這樣能不能保障臺灣的安全？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，針對選舉議題，我們通常不做任何評論，因為第一，國軍本來一向就是行政中立的，因為選舉拋出了一個議題叫我們國防部表達意見，我認為不妥啦！所以就算我有看法，我也絕對不會這樣公開表達我個人的任何看法，就跟平常有很多學者專家討論國防議題，我尊重他們是專業人員，他們有立論基礎，但國防部從來不會去參與討論是一樣的道理，尤其在選舉期間，任何人發表任何言論，只要跟國軍有關的，我代表國防部部長，我不做任何置喙。"],["邱委員臣遠：接下來這個問題就跟國軍有直接的關係，針對共諜的案件，近日國防大學也證實，理工學院的教授葛明德主持先進系統工程研究中心，這是綜管國軍國防產業需求與科技的整合，但是他卻在外開設公司並且與中國技術合作，公司的董事會更在校內召開相關的作為，這會影響國安危機，國防大學表示已經成立專案小組啟動調查，如果葛員有涉不法，絕不寬貸，這是目前國防部的說法。","我想就教邱部長另外一個議題，今天有媒體報導，國防部軍事安全總隊及高檢署今年7月底破獲近十餘年來最大商人謝秉成發展軍中的共諜網案，這是今天稍早的消息，竟然發現史無前例的駕機叛逃計畫，前航特部的謝姓中校計畫跟謝秉成共諜以大約新臺幣4.8億元及泰國永久居留權為代價，趁今年6月大陸軍演時，山東號航艦行經臺海中線之際，祕密駕駛CH-47直升機叛逃並且降落山東艦，幸好在叛逃前遭到逮捕，以致他的計畫失敗。針對這兩個案子，請問邱部長您目前掌握的狀況如何，要不要在這邊說明一下？"],["邱部長國正：我坦白跟委員報告，也跟我們同仁報告，對於這件事情我相當沈痛，國軍在這一方面是一個很基本的概念，對國家的防衛、對單位的忠誠度遭遇到這種狀況，蠻不可思議的，但我不逃避，該要被法辦的絕對不會輕易縱容，所以剛剛有幾個委員講到我的看法，我個人看法就是這樣子，以最嚴重的方法來辦他，但我不能去主導，這是我發表我個人的看法。"],["邱委員臣遠：實際的管理面包含這位葛教授是不是有涉及國家安全利益跟機密人員，尤其這種涉及國家核心關鍵技術的業務人員，有受到什麼規範禁止前往大陸的相關對象，對於國防部跟國防大學的管制，從這個案子看得出來是相對鬆散的，這中間的管理漏洞要怎麼樣去補強？"],["邱部長國正：是，所以這個案子我已經採取兩個步驟……"],["邱委員臣遠：具體的措施？"],["邱部長國正：重複在做，第一個具體的措施是將他送法辦，因為剛剛委員提了幾個問題，只要跟法有關的就交給法辦，引經據典、該辦就辦，這是第一個；第二個我不能講我等待法辦結果以後才處理，我們同步在做行政調查，只要跟他這個人有關的、跟他工作有關的，相關的牽扯人員，展開行政方面查處，應該要警告、懲處……"],["邱委員臣遠：我想嚴辦、絕不寬貸這都是事後，但是事前的預防機制、防堵機制，相關法令的完善才是預防勝於治療的主要重點，我想就教邱部長，國防部現職的軍官，到底哪些人可以前往中國大陸，哪些人不能前往？尤其是退離職的人員，前往中國大陸需不需要事先申請？相關的嚴格規範，譬如說涉及到國家安全機密或核心技術，這部分你們後續除了法制上的完善，行政管理還有相關的管理機制要怎麼樣強化，我覺得這個是重點，我希望你在這邊說明一下。","另外一個部分，希望國防部可以透過這兩個案子，在內部做內控管理，因為不管任何的法辦或是絕不寬貸的態度都是事後的處理方式，如何有效的機制管理才是事情根本的重點，是不是請部長說明一下要怎麼強化後續的管理機制跟管理漏洞？"],["邱部長國正：是，基本上跟委員報告，原則上現役軍人沒有哪一個可以同意到大陸地區的，現在都沒有，退役以後看他當初在軍中服役、服勤中的職務、涉密等級等等各有規範，目前我們平常都在做的，誠如剛剛委員也有提到，保防工作我們真的很加強，所以我並不推責任，這件事情真的是保安人員發覺了以後深入來調查的，但我們不以此為滿意，有幾件大案子一連串出來，國防部的確要痛定思痛……"],["邱委員臣遠：我認為要痛定思痛、總體的盤點。我這邊具體提出一個建議，我想請國防部邱部長儘速針對這兩個案子盤點相關法制上的漏洞，尤其要針對從事國防事務現職及退離職人員申請進入中國大陸地區的作業規定做嚴加管控，並且對於前往大陸的高階人員及接觸機密跟專利的人士做嚴格管制，尤其這次葛員的事情必須從重處罰、下不為例、完全杜絕，針對這個相關法令的一個作業規定，應該要去做總體的一個盤點。"],["邱部長國正：是，這我們應該要做的，我們絕對從嚴來處理。"],["邱委員臣遠：好，第二個就是說，針對今天的重點─兵役延長的配套機制，本席之前也在這邊提出兵役延長的整個配套跟整備狀況的質詢，包含針對徵集訓練作業、分派作業跟服役期間的提繳退休金的作業，其實陸陸續續國防部都有做，我們也知道就是慢慢地再去完善，但是到底義務役要不要上戰場？前線跟後勤，甚至於哪一邊是我們國軍主要戰備的動力？如果今天不幸發生衝突，我想也沒有前線、後線之分，戰爭一旦爆發，其實到處都是前線，也沒有外島、本島之分，甚至連後備的部隊都要隨時撥充到前線。所以我想就教邱部長，除了主戰部隊之外，備戰部隊包含義務役平日的訓練要不要做好上戰場的準備，那相關的訓練內容有沒有去做一個調整？","另外一個部分，因為近年來受到少子女化的影響，國軍招募人才嚴重不足，這個其實是可見的未來，未來在相關人力的補充有沒有具體的一個作為？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，這邊我還再次強調一次，因為以前我也在很多公開場合表達過，臺灣防禦的作戰我們不期望它會成真，但我們平常要做準備工作就是要防止、避免這種事情的發生，但如果一旦發生了，我想臺灣就那麼大的地方，不大！一旦發生了臺灣防禦作戰，槍砲一響沒有前方、後方。"],["邱委員臣遠：對。"],["邱部長國正：所以為什麼我要求我們所有同仁要有一個觀念─處處是戰場、要時時做訓練。就為了這一個，不期望發生的事情，一旦發生了，我們好歹也要做一些很積極的準備，這一個。第二個就是，至於有些人他的表達方法，我講說我不瞭解，就是說我也沒有任何評論，譬如說我們這一個戰場的界定，可能就講說一般來講，我只要在這個牆裡面，外面如果在打仗，外面是戰場，我裡面不是，但我已經講了，臺灣防禦作戰槍砲一響沒有前方、後方之分，就可以……"],["邱委員臣遠：我想全民國防除了我們自主的防衛意識之外，其實各國也都在看，那麼如何精實訓練的內容跟保障役男權益的一個前提之下，能夠落實前線國防跟民防，甚至中央、地方政府的合作，我想這個未來還有很長的路要走，我希望部長能夠繼續堅持住，應該要把這個相關的細節包含全民國防手冊的完善，還有中央、地方政府的相關溝通，以及役男的心理建設，還有我們國軍志願役相關的權益，也不要讓他們有相對剝奪感，最重要是重新提振國軍弟兄的榮譽感跟士氣，我覺得這是非常重要的。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["邱委員臣遠：希望部長可以繼續努力。謝謝！"],["邱部長國正：這我們本務工作應該做的。謝謝委員！"],["主席：謝謝邱臣遠委員。","接下來請何召委詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.6722187500000001,"end":1.2122187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.72159375,"end":40.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.252218750000004,"end":51.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.44909375,"end":56.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.28784375,"end":65.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.97846875,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.68096875,"end":80.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","sta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t":302.549,"end":325.127,"text":"我們相關牽涉這個人員,我們展開行政方面應該要警告…我想,嚴辦絕不寬待,這個都是事後,但是事前的預防機制、防堵機制、相關法令的一個完善,這個才是預防剩餘治療的一個主要的重點。那我想就教邱部長,那國防部現職的軍官,哪一些人到底可以前往中國大陸,哪一些人不能前往?"},{"start":325.367,"end":326.048,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":349.349,"end":367.385,"text":"透過這兩個案子在內部的內控管理因為我想不管任何的這個法辦或是絕不寬大的態度這都是事後的一個處理的方式但是如何有效的機制管理這個才是事情根本的重點那是不是請部長說明一下這要怎麼強化後續的管理機制跟管理漏洞"},{"start":367.945,"end":388.098,"text":"基本上我跟委員報告,就是說原則上現役軍人沒有哪一個可以同意到大陸地區的,現在都沒有。那退役以後,看他當初在軍中服役,在服勤當中的職務,受命等級等等,各有規範。那目前我們平常都在做的。"},{"start":388.858,"end":409.053,"text":"陳副國防委員有提到,保防這個工作我們真的在很加強,所以最近我並不幫我推責任,有幾件事情真的是保防人員發覺了以後,深入來調查的,但我們不以此為滿意啦,有這幾件大案子一連串出來,這國防部的確要痛斷是痛的。"},{"start":409.053,"end":414.317,"text":"總體盤點提出一個建議請邱部長、國防部儘速針對這兩個案子盤點相關法制上的漏洞尤其是要針對從事國防事務限職及退離職人員申請進入中國大陸地區的作業規定要做嚴加的管控"},{"start":430.348,"end":446.886,"text":"對於前往大陸的高階人員及接觸機密跟專利的人士來去做相關的一個嚴格管制,尤其這次葛元的事情必須從重處罰,下部為例完全杜絕。那針對這個相關的法令的一個作業規定,應該要去做總體的一個盤點。"},{"start":448.627,"end":472.32,"text":"第二、針對今天的重點,兵役延長的配套機制。我想本席之前也在這邊提出兵役延長的整個配套跟整備狀況的質詢。包含針對徵集訓練作業、分派作業跟服役期間的提繳退休金的作業,其實陸陸續續國防部都有做,我們也知道慢慢的再去完善。但是到底一無一要不要上戰場,"},{"start":473.12,"end":474.161,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":497.139,"end":518.569,"text":"我想就教邱部長除了主戰部隊之外備戰部隊包含義務役、兵力的訓練要不要做好上戰場的準備那相關的訓練內容有沒有去做一個調整那另外一個部分因為近年來受到少子女化的影響那國軍招募人才嚴重不足那這個其實是可見的未來未來在相關能力的補充有沒有具體的一個作為"},{"start":519.489,"end":544.426,"text":"我跟委員報告,我這邊我要再次強調一次,因為以前我也在很多公開場合,我也表達過,臺灣防疫作戰,我們不期望它會成真。但我們平常要做準備工作就是防止、避免這種事發生。但如果一旦發生了,我想臺灣就那麼大的地方,不大。一旦發生了臺灣防疫作戰,槍炮一響,沒有前方後方。"},{"start":545.706,"end":559.696,"text":"所以我要求我們所有同仁要有一個觀念處處是戰場實時做訓練就為了這個不期望發生的事情一旦發生了我們好歹也要做一些很積極的準備"},{"start":561.477,"end":583.657,"text":"第二、有些人的表達方法我不了解,我也沒有任何評論。比如說我們對戰場的界定,可能一般講說我只要在牆裏面,外面如果打亂,那個外面是戰場,我裏面不是。但我已經講了,颱風發生之後,槍炮一響,沒有前方後方之分。"},{"start":584.598,"end":611.033,"text":"我想全民國防除了我們自主的防衛意識之外其實各國也都在看那如何精實訓練的內容跟保障藝男的這個權益的一個前提之下能夠落實前線國防跟民防甚至中央地方政府的一個合作我想這個未來還有很長的路要走我希望部長能夠繼續堅持住應該要把這個相關的細節包含全民國防手冊的完善還有這個中央地方政府的相關溝通"},{"start":613.494,"end":627.908,"text":"以及藝南的心理建設還有我們國軍志願役相關的一個權益也不要讓他們有這個相對剝奪感最重要是重新提振國軍弟兄的榮譽感跟士氣我覺得這是非常重要的希望部長可以繼續努力謝謝"}]}},{"id":"148973","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148973","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720290d94e7f2347c185592351fad24fff329c986728e607a0322091ed520d06e93fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李德維","委員發言時間":"12:26:44 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ROTC擴大成為另外一個國防學士班，您覺得可行嗎？"],["邱部長國正：可以啊！委員的這個提議很好啊！我們已經看出來國防學士班因為受限於那個範圍，而且又蠻苛的，所以來的人不多，現在ROTC除了到一般部隊做兵科軍官以外，又增加了一個可以投入專業的單位，對他們來講絕對有利吧！所以我們絕對可以把它加進去研議。"],["李委員德維：對，所以這部分我倒是建議部長跟國防部思考一下，請您參考。","另外請教一下，最近中國大陸發射了幾次火箭，前面三次發射了以後，國防部新聞稿裡面都說對於臺灣的影響不大，沒有安全的疑慮，那第四次的時候，第四次的新聞稿倒沒有特別談到這個部分，請教一下，他們第四次的火箭發射有特別不一樣或者什麼嗎？"],["邱部長國正：沒有，因為他們發射在我們南端好像是200浬左右上空，而且已經到了大氣層，所以也一樣沒有影響，但我們沒有特別強調這句話，事實上有很多飛彈發射以後影響或不影響，他們只要有劃設一個禁航區，代表那個周邊都有可能，所以我們也不能把話講太滿，不光這一次，可能以後我們也會強調這個，我們就告知他們要發射火箭了，有可能是探空，我們就做這個表達，對我們這個地方所有緊急危害狀況告知以後，我們有緊急狀況處理的方法，就用那個方法來做。"],["李委員德維：好，瞭解。我就說大家都非常關心召委今天特別提的這件事情，請國防部特別注意，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：是的。"],["李委員德維：謝謝，謝謝召委、謝謝部長。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李德維委員。","接下來請邱臣遠委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.16596875,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.03909375,"end":3.0515937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.489093750000002,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.41284375,"end":29.730968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.372218750000002,"end":44.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.61471875,"end":65.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.27034375,"end":61.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.422218750000006,"end":61.540343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.94471875,"end":76.27221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.59284375,"end":95.40846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.43846875000001,"end":92.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.81346875000001,"end":103.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.14659375000001,"end":97.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.03596875000001,"end":106.37721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.37721875000001,"end":106.98471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.98471875000001,"end":117.53159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.35596875,"end":108.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.59909375000001,"end":120.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.83909375,"end":132.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.01846875,"end":140.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.35909375,"end":144.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.35846875000001,"end":154.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.89284375,"end":164.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.25409375,"end":172.64534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.77596875,"end":188.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.30534375000002,"end":204.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.91034375,"end":206.36159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.20534375000003,"end":210.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.29346875000002,"end":234.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.73784375000002,"end":228.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.49221875,"end":234.59346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.59346875000003,"end":235.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.76221875000002,"end":236.75346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.14159375000003,"end":274.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.97534375000004,"end":288.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.48909375,"end":281.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.15534375000004,"end":284.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.25659375000004,"end":284.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.38221875,"end":305.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.27471875000003,"end":303.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.80596875000003,"end":309.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.53534375000004,"end":310.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.88534375,"end":312.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.96971875,"end":311.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.69096875,"end":313.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.92284375,"end":313.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.19284375,"end":325.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.10659375,"end":336.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.69159375000004,"end":336.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.60284375000003,"end":337.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.73784375,"end":339.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.77971875000003,"end":338.94846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.452,"end":1.439,"text":"謝謝主席。麻煩部長。邱部長請。"},{"start":11.813,"end":27.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不太一樣，沒錯吧！還是說就一般兵來用就好？當時我們設立國防學士班的目的何在？就這麼簡單，是為了補充你的量的不足？還是希望真的找到又有專業，即便量不多的這些人？"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，我們是希望廣開整個軍官的來源。"],["羅委員致政：所以有就好，是不是？"],["邱部長國正：要有專業當然就更好嘛！像科技方面，為什麼當初理工學院跟著清大，他們會……"],["羅委員致政：沒有錯嘛，部長講的是重點啊！"],["邱部長國正：我們也期望，但是後來招到的狀況不然嘛……"],["羅委員致政：沒有，部長，我現在不是問招的狀況，我現在是問產品出來之後好不好嘛！如果這3個是好的、很優秀，臺大的、交大、清大出來的好，就算3個我也繼續辦，我坦白講，30個當然更好，對不對？我現在講的就是說，他們陸陸續續會畢業，這幾個人即便是少數，到底對我們國家戰力也好，或專業這塊有沒有提升，請你們繼續觀察好不好？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["羅委員致政：不要因為他們這個班可能最後不見了，已經夭折了，然後就算了，就把這批人用完就算了，我覺得很可惜啊！部長同意我這個想法吧？"],["邱部長國正：同意啊，我們也希望它好嘛！"],["羅委員致政：對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["羅委員致政：其實，主席剛剛有一點很重要，就是到底是制度設計不夠好，還是這個制度本身就不應該存在？這的確可以討論啦！我們舉個例子來講，對這些高中畢業的學生來講，這個制度最大誘因在哪裡？大家覺得最大誘因在哪裡？"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，當初設立的目的是希望他們補充軍官的來源，如果說……"],["羅委員致政：不是、不是，我現在問的是，對這些想要報名的學生，你覺得它最大誘因在哪裡？為什麼我想選擇這個？不是ROTC，甚至不是讀正期生，為什麼？你覺得誘因在哪裡？"],["劉次長沛智：他們希望能夠有專業發展，就是說……"],["羅委員致政：不是啦！不是啦！坦白講，你們就沒有從需求面去思考，讀國立大學、好的學校啦！沒錯吧？"],["邱部長國正：國立大學、好的學校，一方面他平常的生活，還有他的教育，我們都有資助，另外他一樣可以在……"],["羅委員致政：不是、不是，部長，財力的誘因，我跟你講，跟ROTC差不多啦！"],["邱部長國正：對，差不多嘛！一樣的，幾乎一樣。"],["羅委員致政：對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["羅委員致政：所以如果ROTC跟學士班來比的話，其他誘因都一樣啊，唯一不同是ROTC廣開嘛。"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["羅委員致政：可是國防學士班很多重點國立學校，就算5年當完兵之後，我還有交大的文憑、我有臺大的文憑、我有清大的文憑，沒錯吧？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["羅委員致政：這才是誘因啊！所以如果你只從你國防部的角度思考到底能不能招到學生，你沒有從學生的角度思考，這是很大的問題喔！"],["邱部長國正：可是ROTC也一樣有他們學校的文憑。"],["羅委員致政：我知道，但是不是所有學校都是國立嘛！有部分啦！我再舉個例子，制度上有一個很大的問題是一般年輕人不敢去參加國防學士班，知道為什麼嗎？退訓就退學！沒錯吧？就是他如果讀到一半不讀了，抱歉！臺大就讀不下去了。"],["劉次長沛智：對，就沒有學歷。"],["羅委員致政：沒錯啊！"],["劉次長沛智：但這是當初律定的教授他們堅持的。"],["羅委員致政：我知道嘛！"],["劉次長沛智：教育部同意的。"],["羅委員致政：所以這些學生不是一般學生，因為可能他只要有一天不想走軍人這條路了、不想服兵役了，抱歉！兩頭空，沒錯吧？"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["羅委員致政：你覺得一個高中生他敢做這個決定嗎？如果你的小孩子讀到大三了，決定不讀了，抱歉！臺大也沒了，也不用當兵，還要賠錢。天啊！這是豪賭吔！"],["劉次長沛智：報告委員，這個是當初清華的副校長和教育部所談的。"],["羅委員致政：我也知道當初啊！我知道，所以你知道一個高中生畢業的時候決定要簽這個終身契約，不要說賣身契啦！簽這個契約下去，那個風險多高？"],["劉次長沛智：有點太年輕了。"],["羅委員致政：因為你們自己講嘛，投資跟效益無法滿足，其實我覺得不是投資跟效益的問題，那是只從你們的角度來看，所以投資、效益，我辦得那麼辛苦、承辦人那麼辛苦，只招3個、4個，重點是你從來沒有面對一個問題，那就是這些學生在選擇這個制度，不是ROTC、不是正期生的時候，我講白一點，比讀軍官學校還風險高。"],["邱部長國正：所以我跟委員報告，為什麼當初我們這個班，剛剛講的，是大學教授、副校長自己訂的，對不對？我們並沒有想要順水推舟，但既然能夠這麼有把握，我們當然樂意投資，可是這幾年所看到的成果不好嘛！"],["羅委員致政：沒有、沒有。"],["邱部長國正：不好我們就把它回到加入ROTC，它也沒有這個問題啊！"],["羅委員致政：部長，這個制度都不是你在任的時候設的，我都知道，不是問題，政策該檢討要檢討，但檢討是馬上就說：停！不要！還是有其他方法可以改進？我舉個例子，現在很多企業跟臺大 EMBA合作說幫它開班，但不是占他們一般的學生人數，而是用其他方式來滿足嘛！所以你們現在要改，我也沒意見，你要廢掉，我也沒意見，我現在講的就是我們真正面對問題，不要只從國防部的本位主義，我的投資效益如何、我的成效如何，一個制度的設計，就跟ROTC也是一樣，你要回想一下這些學生為什麼？有什麼誘因讓他覺得要選擇這條路？如果你只從國防部的角度，而不從學生的角度的話，坦白講，這也是一個風險很高的決定喔！這個決定決定下去之後兩頭空，到時候誰為他的人生負責？我問一下，現在有沒有學生退訓就退學的？有沒有？"],["劉次長沛智：有21員，目前有……"],["羅委員致政：他讀到大幾的時候退掉的？"],["劉次長沛智：對。"],["羅委員致政：大部分是讀到大幾的時候？"],["劉次長沛智：大部分都是大一、大二，大三、大四基本上不會退了。"],["羅委員致政：來不及了吧！因為他投資已經丟下去了嘛！"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["羅委員致政：他大一、大二退完之後呢？重考大學？"],["劉次長沛智：對。"],["羅委員致政：認賠出場？"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["羅委員致政：沒錯吧！"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["羅委員致政：因為讀到大四的時候再後悔也來不及了。所以這個制度面的問題，坦白講，當時在規劃跟設計的時候的確有很大的問題。我沒有怪部長或是我們這些國防部的同仁，當時設計的時候真的最缺的就是學生端的需求跟誘因。當然，現在很多訓練的課程，包括入伍訓練和大學階段寒暑假的軍事訓練，坦白講，很「ㄍ一ㄥ」吔！等於他幾乎沒有寒暑假，這些制度面的檢討，我之所以要提這些，部長你也知道，ROTC也全部包括這4項，沒錯吧？"],["邱部長國正：沒錯。"],["羅委員致政：很操喔！這些學生真的很操！相較一般大學生，我講白一點，他已經沒有大學生的生活了啦，真的！一旦當我們又恢復到一年役期之後，上次我也請問過部長，我擔心會不會衝擊到ROTC吸收的這個情況，因為你們看嘛！雖然你們都說招獲率百分之百，不錯，但是你們的計畫是逐年下降啊，等到恢復到1年之後，我跟你保證一定會繼續下降，甚至搞到最後也要廢掉ROTC。在還沒有決定要廢之前，我們再好好檢討一下，到底問題出在什麼地方？不要只從投資效益跟成果來看，那個只是解決國防部的問題，並沒有解決學生的問題，他真的有興趣，但如果制度再好一點的話，我相信還是可以留住一些優秀的年輕人願意投入我們軍中的行列，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["羅委員致政：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅委員。","接下來請李德維委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.36409375,"end":2.0897187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.235968750000001,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.598468750000002,"end":17.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.31096875,"end":30.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.456593750000003,"end":34.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.877843750000004,"end":38.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.80971875,"end":39.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.19346875,"end":41.307218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.830343750000004,"end":43.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.63159375,"end":46.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.837843750000005,"end":48.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.525343750000005,"end":52.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.119718750000004,"end":53.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.25471875,"end":56.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.954718750000005,"end":55.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.039093750000006,"end":56.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.41034375,"end":57.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.45221875,"end":62.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.41346875000001,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.96596875,"end":65.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.82659375,"end":71.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.44596875,"end":71.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.95221875,"end":72.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.39096875,"end":74.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.80409375,"end":81.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.57096875,"end":83.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.62971875000001,"end":84.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.00096875,"end":86.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.37596875,"end":88.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.73846875000001,"end":96.87659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.91034375000001,"end":97.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.66534375,"end":99.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.28096875,"end":103.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.84596875000001,"end":104.48721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.97659375,"end":108.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.80721875,"end":110.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.47784375,"end":114.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.35909375000001,"end":115.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.60784375,"end":117.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.21534375,"end":117.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.02096875000001,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.03784375000001,"end":125.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.08846875,"end":118.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.45534375000001,"end":119.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.57284375,"end":124.99034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.02409375,"end":126.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.53034375000001,"end":130.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.98534375,"end":133.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02",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好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"148971","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148971","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029cc4d69565d9f4efb92351fad24fff329c986728e607a032231f66945a42017395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林靜儀","委員發言時間":"11:59:32 - 12:16:38","影片長度":"00:17:06","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":1026,"end_time":"2023-12-11T12:16:38+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:59:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":933,"blocks":[["林委員靜儀：（11時59分）謝謝主席，我們麻煩國防部邱部長。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長國正：委員好。"],["林委員靜儀：部長午安。民眾對於我們的國防越來越關注，但是我也相信之前包含你還有退輔會的主委都說，多數的都是忠心為國家的，只有少數的害群之馬，可是如果害群之馬的案件一直頻繁的出現，而且沒有辦法以很快的速度讓民眾看到軍方的決心的話，那事情就很麻煩了！剛剛蔡適應委員講的是一個共諜案，我現在還要講另外一個國防大學的洩密案。在國防大學這個案子，這個教授是主持我們的「先進系統工程研究中心」，尤其是牽涉到我國這些非常重要的精密系統的布建和研究，可是根據報導，現在有調查出一些資料，當然你們等一下一定會講還在調查當中，我看到報導，現在的狀況就是，他掌管這些產業需求跟科技整合，然後自己再開民間公司跟中國技術合作，還在學校裡面開董事會，而且根據媒體的報導，這個過程長達10年。讓我很意外的事情是說，這一個在國防大學掌管我們這麼多重要產業需求跟系統研發的計畫主持人，他可以在外面開公司，這個公司跟中國有關係，跟中國有合作，而且他的公司董事會是在校內召開，那這個學校的內部控管是怎麼控管的？"],["邱部長國正：是，所以我跟委員報告，這的確是我們有一個很大的疏忽，就是需要檢討，但是我跟同仁講，並不是光檢討這個事情就了了，我們要有作為，已經移送法辦了，另外的行政調查、行政懲處，我們也同步在做。"],["林委員靜儀：這一位被移送法辦，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對，移送法辦。"],["林委員靜儀：那對校內其他相關人員有沒有行政懲處？"],["邱部長國正：一定要行政懲處，我們把相關的人員，從他主官領導職到他業管的幕僚通通抓出來，該辦就辦嘛！"],["林委員靜儀：部長，媒體說時間長達10年啦！"],["邱部長國正：對，沒有錯，10年。"],["林委員靜儀：你們掌握到是10年，在這10年中間……"],["邱部長國正：我知道的是從102年開始。"],["林委員靜儀：他的同事看著他在學校裡面來開自己公司的董監事會，然後知道他外面有公司，對這個東西，大家都沒有意見，大家都覺得沒有關係，那就是整個系統的問題了！"],["邱部長國正：所以這個東西就很嚴重，今天早上我特別有強調這一點，部長當然負全責啦！"],["林委員靜儀：那話再說回來，我們再往下追，就是說他所主持的……"],["邱部長國正：還要追嘛！"],["林委員靜儀：這個是往內，就是對這整個系統再去追嘛！"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["林委員靜儀：部長，你對於很多事情的態度都很強硬，可是這個長達10年都這樣子，你不能簡單的說我們都還要追，這個就都在查了嘛！不能這麼簡單的講。"],["邱部長國正：我沒有不強硬，我對這件事也都很強硬啊！所以他們本來沒有要把他送法辦，我說不要囉嗦、先送法辦再講。"],["林委員靜儀：本來沒有要送法辦是什麼意思？"],["邱部長國正：本來他們還說要檢討，等查明以後再這樣子，我想那等什麼呢？我這樣講就代表對這件事情很看重啦！他的單位也並沒有不看重，但是就礙於這個程序，認為我們要先瞭解，有一分證據講一分話，我想這是檢調單位他們自然會做的。"],["林委員靜儀：檢調當然是有一分證據講一分話。"],["邱部長國正：但是我們馬上要處理的，要快刀斬亂麻嘛！先斬再講。"],["林委員靜儀：但是各位是在軍方服務，我們在軍事系統裡面有這麼多重要的機密在他手上，如果你們要等到一個程度，我們都不知道出去多少了，再來就是這個東西會不會消滅掉一些相關的跡證嘛！那我再請問，在這10年來他手頭上掌管的這些相關的資料，根據你們現在的掌握，有沒有東西跑出去？"],["邱部長國正：現在要查嘛！"],["林委員靜儀：根據最新查到的資料，已經跑出多少東西了？"],["李教育長成中：跟委員報告，從96年到今年為止，他有68件研究案，但是目前查察的結果是都沒有洩漏出去，但是我們還是會請檢調單位來針對這方面來查察。"],["林委員靜儀：你說沒有洩漏出去，他那麼乾淨？在這邊有研究案，在外面又開公司，公司又跟中國合作，分得那麼清楚，給中國一些簡單的小東西，然後我自己這邊研究國家大的東西，這麼厲害？"],["李教育長成中：跟委員報告，他在接這個研究案的時候，都是會簽署保密協定，而且他的研究等級是屬於一個初步的學術研究範圍，跟國家科技機密是不會有直接的關聯。"],["林委員靜儀：什麼叫做初步的研究範圍？可以解釋一下嗎？所以你們說這是一個先進系統工程研究中心，可是根本沒有先進就對了，你的意思是這樣子嗎？"],["崔院長怡楓：報告委員，有關於學校或者相關研究機構接的相關研究案，按照我們整個科技備便水準的等級，總共分成九級，其中第一級到第三級都叫做基礎研究、科學的探索，然後等到第四級以後才是要作為原型機後面的科技彙整或發展之用，學校承接的都是屬於技術備便水準三以下的相關案件，所以剛剛案內這位教授所接的這68案都是屬於這種科學探索……"],["林委員靜儀：他承包了國家很多的研究案，所以你們這些研究案都是最基礎的、都是沒有先進製程的、都是沒有前瞻性的，那這樣子我們幹嘛給你們預算？"],["邱部長國正：他剛剛已經講了，這有分類嘛！他說這幾樣是三級以內的，其他有往上提升，不代表……"],["林委員靜儀：所以你們現在調查的資料裡面，你們現在跟我講的意思就是說，你們所調查的事情只有他不應該違法兼職這樣子而已？"],["邱部長國正：我們沒有說只調查某個部分，既然送法辦了……"],["林委員靜儀：因為你剛剛跟我說這些都是一些比較不重要的，都是一些比較……"],["邱部長國正：不是，剛才是講他目前牽涉到六十多件案子，他們查到的是這樣。"],["林委員靜儀：對。"],["邱部長國正：其他不是講說通通三級以內，三級以上的有很多案子啊！"],["林委員靜儀：所以三級以上的案子他有沒有參與？"],["邱部長國正：因為剛剛委員問他有沒有洩漏出去，他們講的是三級以內他們查過了，並沒有洩漏出去。"],["林委員靜儀：部長，我請問的事情是在他所參與的案子裡面有沒有哪一些你們現在正在儘速的往下去阻斷或者是知道哪些東西已經洩漏出去了，你們手上有沒有這樣的紀錄跟資料？"],["崔院長怡楓：報告委員，現在這68案經查都是屬於三級以下，但是他還牽涉到兩個部分，第一個是有沒有把這些成果轉成他私人所用，或者甚至像剛剛講的是和對岸有關係，這個還要再查；第二個就是有關他跟大陸人士的接觸這些相關爭議研究案的部分，這也是後面要查察的重點。"],["林委員靜儀：我們現在從媒體所看到的報導，整個狀況並不是像你講的這麼簡單，當然我不喜歡看媒體的報導來跟你們做要求，或者是對媒體報導的東西都全盤接收，但是這件事情請你們到我的辦公室來，把你們現在手上調查的東西跟媒體所講出來的東西一個一個對起來，好不好？其實剛剛在蔡適應委員的質詢裡面有一個重點，我也非常的同意，就是我們希望你們有一個你們自己的系統，很快的、儘速的、以最快的速度針對這些可能的風險去做調查或者是控管，對於這個案子我最不能接受的是已經整整10年，如果說是在這一兩年發生的，你們整個系統上還抓不到，原來是最近的事情，我就不會怪你們怪到這麼嚴重，可是已經整整10年了，大家來講這個案子，你那麼輕鬆跟我說沒有啦！他這68個都是很簡單的案子，我覺得這樣我不能接受，從他的態度來講，表示這個人態度有問題啊！"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我們從來沒有講得很輕鬆這樣來敷衍，我們把這個看得很嚴重。"],["林委員靜儀：是，你們看得很嚴重，只是你現在告訴我們他接觸到的都不是重要的事情。"],["邱部長國正：我的想法跟委員一樣，已經10年了，所以我就問幹部，我們怎麼能夠接受這種狀況？並沒有輕鬆，那該辦人就辦人嘛！我們也想要重辦，就要槍斃掉，我們也期望這樣子啊！"],["林委員靜儀：部長，你在國會裡面這樣直接講「槍斃掉」這三個字，我想你這是宣示性發言吧！"],["邱部長國正：不是，這是我們的期望嘛！因為這種事情的嚴重性，就我們的認知來講的話，這足以變成叛國，這不就叛國嗎？"],["林委員靜儀：在這麼多的案子裡面，我們都不斷的提醒你們民眾對你們的觀感，那你現在講叛國，我們在那時候跟你說有些事情有叛國的風險，你又講你認為沒有。"],["邱部長國正：我沒有講我認為沒有，對每樣事情我們要查證，但是這件事情就誠如剛剛委員講的，已經10年了，我也沒有辦法交代啊！所以我認為完全要依法究辦，而且辦得越重越好，我的觀念就是如此啊！"],["林委員靜儀：在辦得越重越好的過程裡面，其實也需要你們軍方在這個過程中提出相關的證據、相關的資訊，而且你們要提出相關的態度，在這個過程還是要講，當然是辦得越重越好，你現在是這樣講，但是到時候在辦的時候，你們提出來的證據是不是能夠讓他辦得越重越好，這是我們非常疑惑的事情啦！","好，最後再給我一點點時間，因為我還是很關注我們所謂替代役教召的部分，我知道替代役教召是屬於內政部主管，但是我先在這邊請問一下部長，到時候替代役的教召或替代役的訓練最終也是希望能夠補強我們在全民動員時相關的軍事戰備能力，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：替代役的分配單位沒有在軍中的。"],["林委員靜儀：我知道沒有在軍中啊！可是一旦發生戰亂或者是嚴重的危機，就像在發生水災的時候，通常也是請軍方來幫助民眾嘛！那回過頭來，我們現在講一旦國家發生緊急危難的時候，不會全部都是軍人在做事，對不對？你們在全民動員裡面，全民動員這件事情就是全部的人民都要來幫助國家、保護國家嘛！"],["邱部長國正：是啊！全民防衛動員。"],["林委員靜儀：所以我現在要請問你的議題就是，當在緊急的狀況之下，全部的人民都一起來協助軍人保護國家的時候，有一群人叫替代役嘛！是吧？"],["邱部長國正：他們有他們動員的管道。"],["林委員靜儀：他們平常不是你管的，我知道嘛！我要問內政部嘛！但是我現在要問你的事情是，站在國防部的立場，全部的人一起來保護國家，你們是不是也至少會期待說，那我們有一塊是國防部沒辦法做的，可以讓替代役來幫我們處理嘛！應該是吧？"],["邱部長國正：是這樣子啊！"],["林委員靜儀：是嘛！我就問你這句話而已嘛！"],["邱部長國正：好，那我講是嘛！"],["林委員靜儀：那我還要請問，在你們國防部的認知裡面，這一批替代役能夠協助的是哪些事，你們期待他們幫你們補足你們國軍體系沒有辦法做的是哪些事？"],["邱部長國正：除了作戰以外，只要能夠把我們的主任務、作戰任務完全由國軍來支援、來做，不要再去扯到別的地方去，還要我們派人的，我都樂見啊！"],["林委員靜儀：是嘛！我一直強調，我想全動署在這邊，我這兩年一直在問的事情是，如果國防部不能很清楚地來協助其他全動相關的部會去提出說我國防部負責這些事情，某一件事情要麻煩你，麻煩某一個部會成為我們的後援、back up我們，如果沒有辦法出現這麼一個明確訊息的話，那這些相關部會就是自己想辦法在那邊做嘛！我為什麼要這樣問？役政司副司長，我先請問，你們的替代役教召著重EMT救護能力，所以你們的假設是，一旦發生緊急戰端或者是緊急的這些狀況，我們的替代役，我們最缺的是醫療人員是不是？"],["李副司長昊陞：我想我們替代役的部分就是做後勤的輔助性工作。"],["林委員靜儀：對，所以你說你們首重EMT嘛！我請問，所以你們的意思就是說，一旦發生這些事情，全臺灣當時最缺乏的是整個……軍方最需要的後援是EMT嗎？"],["李副司長昊陞：這個部分我們是把替代役的備役分成兩組，治安維護組跟防災救護組，防災救護組是負責災害的搶救跟緊急救護的部分。"],["林委員靜儀：災害搶救在你們的訓練裡面，你們怎麼做？"],["李副司長昊陞：在災害救護的部分跟緊急救護的部分，我們著重的是EMT-1，就是緊急救護，因為從109年開始，每個替代役男在成功嶺已經取得了EMT-1的證照，像這一次從109年到現在是3年，因為前面疫情的關係，我們沒辦法把他召回來訓練，112年已經滿3年了，我們把他召回來就是讓他的緊急救護證照的技術能一直延續。"],["林委員靜儀：我沒有反對大家都學會緊急照護，我現在問的事情是，你們把替代役召回來訓練EMT-1，這裡面有一些人可能已經取得相關的知能了，我們現在有一些人在自訓；第二個事情是，他們的訓練你的重點是放在這裡，所以你期待他們未來一旦發生狀況的時候，他們就是來做這件事情的。"],["李副司長昊陞：是。"],["林委員靜儀：你們對於替代役的認知跟概念是希望他們這麼做。"],["李副司長昊陞：是。"],["林委員靜儀：你們當初在召替代役的時候，全部都是醫療替代役嗎？"],["李副司長昊陞：我想我們會把他的專長分成……"],["林委員靜儀：所以我一直在問你們，你們在專長……基本上，我期待你們的是專長的後備訓，所謂專長替代役的教召訓練，我現在是看到你們在媒體上說，你們都做EMT-1嘛！"],["李副司長昊陞：跟委員報告，我想我們今年做的主要的部分，因為我們……"],["林委員靜儀：我最後講一件事，因為我超過時間了，我不要 delay大家的時間。我講一個事情，今年臺中也做了相關的萬安演習對不對？我也有親自去看，我看了大家都很認真，沒有錯，一旦在緊急狀況之下，馬上設立那個分類站，就是我們講的檢傷分類站，檢傷分類站馬上分類，分一分，然後醫療救護車就去醫院了，對不對？"],["李副司長昊陞：是。"],["林委員靜儀：請問一下，假設我們今天發生戰災，醫院是正常運作嗎？"],["李副司長昊陞：這個部分可能衛生福利部那邊會比較清楚。"],["林委員靜儀：我先問你，你用一個一般人的腦袋告訴我，發生戰災的時候，醫院是正常運作嗎？"],["李副司長昊陞：應該很混亂。"],["林委員靜儀：所以你認為在這種狀況之下，他們被送去醫院之後，他們就能夠正常的被運作、被照顧嗎？"],["李副司長昊陞：我想站在替代役的立場……"],["林委員靜儀：大家不要只看到你們覺得……我這樣講，我要再次強調，替代役這一邊，我們要把人家召回來召訓，我們一直強調很重要的是，第一，他們要清楚知道他們要怎麼跟國防部配合，我一直強調，今天全動署署長也在這裡，部長也在這裡，我已經講非常多次了，國防部不要一個態度是說，一旦發生事情，我們自己會把自己的國家保護好，我們相信你們會把國家保護好，我們希望的是相關的其他人員不但不要添亂，還可以成為你們的back up，這個時候你們就必須清楚的讓各部會知道，我們平常有什麼人可以用，一旦發生事情的時候，這些人會出來承擔原來社會正常運作之下的什麼位置，所以不要自己想想說，那我們就來訓練 EMT-1好了，這個到時候……我就問你嘛，一旦發生這種狀況，EMT-1這些所謂的後備他們都會乖乖出來當EMT-1嗎？他們乖乖出來當EMT-1，檢傷分類完，好高興，我分類完了，醫院那邊是什麼狀況，你們知道嗎？整個你們完全就是一人只做一段的。","我還是這樣講，我對全動署的要求很高，這也不是一個署長可以完全承諾我們去跟其他跨部會做這種整合的，今天我在講的就是，你看你們光站在我面前，部長，內政部跟國防部，你們兩邊對於替代役這一群可以來協助國家在戰災，或者是緊急狀況之下可以做什麼事情的，根本沒有彼此之間的合作概念啊！你們國防部沒有把任務給他們，那他們怎麼做？但是也不能怪你們，因為……"],["邱部長國正：怎麼會沒有合作？沒有合作，今天兩個人怎麼會共同站在這裡……"],["林委員靜儀：我這樣問你們的時候，我就說……所以部長我請問，我剛剛一直在問嘛，在戰災的狀況之下，我們國軍最缺的是很多人幫你們做EMT-1嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我們平常在訓練上各有各的部門，各有各的項目，我們把它做好，但今天講如果一旦作戰或什麼，那我現在就反問，假使在沒有敵情的狀況下，很平常……"],["林委員靜儀：我們當然知道平常，所以不用嘛……"],["邱部長國正：我們要訓練，把他訓練好，作戰有其他額外會干擾的。"],["林委員靜儀：所以作戰額外干擾的，我們今天做這些訓練，一旦發生作戰額外的狀況之下，我剛剛講的這一批替代役，你平常做這件事情在幹什麼……"],["邱部長國正：我們先把目前平靜的狀況下做好，做好以後，其他狀況加進去，比方說炸彈來的時候怎麼辦，這都是額外一點一點加的。"],["林委員靜儀：所以這個東西就是我一直說，你們這個替代役的訓練裡面，今天我沒有怪你們任何一個部會，我是說你們兩個部會之間的整合跟任務方向，拜託要用這個方式來看我們的訓練，這些年輕人回來受訓，他們期待的是受到對國家有幫助的訓練。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，不用拜託，全動署成立的目的何在？就是整合各部會嘛！"],["林委員靜儀：全動署你有整合各部會嗎？"],["邱部長國正：你問問看。"],["李副司長昊陞：我們都有密切的……"],["白署長捷隆：替代役的所有精進方案、訓練各方面，我們大小會議都有參與，都密切合作。"],["林委員靜儀：你們給他們什麼訊息？你們給了他們什麼……"],["主席：會後跟林委員講一下。"],["白署長捷隆：是、是、是。我就簡單報告……"],["林委員靜儀：你們在這邊跟我講都說有，我剛剛這樣問就是沒有，我不要占大家的時間，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，詳細的義務役的這一塊來講……替代役這一塊，義務役其實加上民防演習、民防訓練，這邊大家都在質疑會不會影響，其實變成主戰部隊的時候，大家都是亂啦！就是另外一個指揮體系嘛！替代役在這當中是怎麼訓練的？未來怎麼加入整個作戰演練當中？你們自己去規劃一下，好不好？"],["白署長捷隆：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：接下來請羅致政委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.16596875,"end":4.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.429718750000003,"end":26.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.355968750000002,"end":50.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.672843750000006,"end":62.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.35034375,"end":73.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.89284375000001,"end":74.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.63096875000001,"end":76.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.18346875,"end":80.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.72284375000001,"end":87.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.74284375,"end":101.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.63534375,"end":108.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.02659375,"end":122.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.86971875,"end":113.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.42659375000001,"end":114.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.61221875000001,"end":114.66284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.72159375000001,"end":117.16034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.69534375,"end":128.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.42909375,"end":126.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.77034375,"end":137.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.39346875,"end":141.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.24096875,"end":142.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.25346875,"end":143.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.80596875,"end":143.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.89034375,"end":143.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.90721875,"end":143.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.95784375,"end":144.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.97471875000002,"end":146.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.89409375,"end":157.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.03596875000002,"end":165.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.11909375000002,"end":168.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.46471875,"end":169.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.84846875000002,"end":172.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.32471875000002,"end":173.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.69159375,"end":173.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.97409375,"end":175.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.84721875000002,"end":177.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.06221875,"end":180.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.79596875000001,"end":186.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.65596875,"end":186.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.76971875,"end":192.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.93346875,"end":194.12721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.53659375,"end":198.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.97034375,"end":216.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.36221875,"end":202.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.96971875000003,"end":203.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.03721875000002,"end":203.47596875000002},{"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外面開公司這個公司跟中國有關係跟中國有合作而且他的公司董事會在校內召開這個學校內部控管是怎麼控管的?"},{"start":109.199,"end":138.551,"text":"所以我跟委員報告這的確啊說我們要很大一個疏忽啊就是檢討但我跟同仁講不講光檢討就了了我作為已經移送法辦了例外的行政調查行政懲處我們同步在做這一位他移送法辦嘛對不對那行政懲處對校內其他相關人員有沒有行政懲處一定要行政懲處我們把這個相關人員從他主觀領導職到他業管的幕僚通通抓出來那該辦就辦吧不是部長那如果"},{"start":139.071,"end":160.94,"text":"媒體說十年啊對沒有錯你們講過是十年這十年中間我們知道就從102年開始同事看著他在學校裡面來開自己公司的董監事會然後知道他外面有公司這個東西大家都沒有意見大家都覺得沒有關係那就是整個系統的問題了所以這東西又很嚴重所以今天早上我特別有強調這一點"},{"start":162.501,"end":163.242,"text":"國防部部長"},{"start":178.113,"end":197.553,"text":"你對於很多事情態度都很強硬可是這個十年這樣子你不能簡單說我們這還要追嘛這個就已經都在查了嘛不能這麼簡單講我對這件事也都很強硬啊所以他本來沒有要送法單我講你不要囉嗦本來沒有要送法單是什麼意思本來要檢討、查明以後再這樣子我想那要等什麼呢"},{"start":199.028,"end":200.389,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":215.879,"end":233.664,"text":"但是各位在軍方服務嘛,我們在軍事系統裡面這麼多重要的機密在他手上,你等到來,你等到一個程度我們都不知道要出去多少,再來這個東西會不會消滅掉一些相關的跡證嘛。那我再請問回來,現在他手頭上掌管的這些相關的資料這10年,你們現在手頭上掌握有沒有東西跑出去?"},{"start":235.37,"end":258.012,"text":"現在有查嗎?現在最新的這些資料跑出多少東西了?各位委員包括他目前從1996年到今年為止還有68件的研究案但目前查查都是沒有洩漏出去但是我們還是會請警調單位來沒有洩漏出去他手上他那麼乾淨這邊有研究案這邊開公司公司這邊跟中國有合作我分得那麼清楚給中國一些簡單的小東西然後我自己這邊研究國家大的東西這麼厲害"},{"start":259.558,"end":261.941,"text":"什麼叫做初步的研究範圍?可以解釋一下嗎?"},{"start":279.17,"end":297.98,"text":"所以你們講說它是一個先進系統工程研究中心根本沒有先進就對了你的意思是這樣子報告委員有關於學校或者相關的研究機構接的這個相關的研究案按照我們整個科技備變水準的等級總共分成九級其中第一級到第三級都叫做基礎研究"},{"start":298.72,"end":302.662,"text":"他這邊承包國家很多研究案欸所以你們這個研究案都是最基礎的都是沒有先進製程的都是沒有前瞻性的"},{"start":324.394,"end":327.216,"text":"所以你們現在調查的資料裡面你們現在給我的意思就是說你們只調查的事情是他不應該違法兼職這樣子而已?"},{"start":340.905,"end":344.408,"text":"部長,我請問的事情是他現在所參與的案子裡面有沒有哪一些你們現在競速的正在往下去"},{"start":369.406,"end":397.72,"text":"主段或者是知道哪些東西已經洩露出去了,你們手上有沒有這樣的紀錄跟資料?委員現在這68案經過查都是屬於三級以下,但是他還牽扯到兩部分,第一個有沒有把這些的成果轉成他私人的用,或者是甚至跟剛剛講對岸的相關關係,這個要查。那第二個就是他有關於跟大陸人士的接觸這些相關爭議專案的部分,這也是後面要查查的重點。"},{"start":398.28,"end":418.945,"text":"我們現在媒體上看到的報導的狀況不是像你講的這麼簡單當然我們不喜歡看著媒體來跟你們做要求或者是把媒體的東西全部都全盤接收但是這件事情請你們回到我們辦公室來跟我們把你們現在所謂調查的東西跟媒體現在講出來的東西一個一個對起來好不好其實剛剛蔡司穎委員的質詢裡面有一個重點我也非常同意就是"},{"start":419.785,"end":440.12,"text":"我們希望你們自己在這邊有一個你們自己的系統很快的、盡速的、最快的速度去把這些可能的風險去做調查或者控管這個案子我最不能接受的是整整十年你如果說這一兩年你們整個系統上還抓不到原來是最近的事情我不會怪你們的怪到這麼嚴重你整整十年的話那這樣子"},{"start":441.261,"end":462.589,"text":"大家來講你跟我那麼輕鬆講說沒有啦他這68案都很簡單的案子我覺得這樣不能接受這就是他的態度上面來講表示這個人態度有問題啊我們從來沒有講很輕鬆啊我們把這個人看得很嚴重你們看得很嚴重只是你現在告訴我們說他接觸到都不是重要的事情我就問幹部我們整個哪個人能夠接受這種狀況沒有輕鬆那該辦人辦人嘛我們現在重辦就要槍斃掉我們也期望這樣子啊"},{"start":470.748,"end":476.631,"text":"部長你在國會上面你這樣直接講槍斃掉這三個字我想你這個是宣誓性發言吧?對我們的認知來講的話足以變叛國嘛這不就叛國嗎?我們這麼多的案子裡面我們都不斷提醒你們民眾對你們的觀感那你現在講叛國一旦我們那時候跟你講說有些事情有叛國的風險你又講的說沒有你認為沒有?"},{"start":494.039,"end":494.961,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":507.777,"end":534.672,"text":"在辦得越重越好的過程裡面其實也需要你們軍方去在這個過程中你們要提出相關的證據相關的資訊而且你們要提出相關的態度在這個過程還是要講辦得越重越好當然是這樣子你現在這樣講但是到時候在辦的時候你們提出來的證據是不是能夠讓他辦得越重越好是我們非常疑惑的事情啦好我最後再給我一點點時間喔因為我還是很關注我們在所謂替代一教招的部分喔我知道替代一教招是屬於內政部管理但是我先在這邊請問一下部長"},{"start":535.692,"end":541.981,"text":"提待役到時候提待役的教招或提待役的訓練最終也是希望能夠補強我們的全民動員的時候的這個相關的軍事戰備能力對不對部長"},{"start":547.533,"end":564.97,"text":"我知道沒有在軍中啊一旦發生戰亂或者是嚴重的危機的時候就像水災的時候通常也是請軍方來幫助民眾嘛那回過頭來我們現在講一旦國家發生緊急危難的時候不會全部都是軍人在做事嘛"},{"start":565.891,"end":582.703,"text":"對不對?你們在全民動員裡面有全民動員這件事情就是全部的人民都要來幫助國家保護國家嘛所以我現在請問你的議題是說站在當緊急狀況之下全部的人民都來一起協助軍人保護國家的時候有一群人叫替代役嘛是吧?"},{"start":583.927,"end":609.165,"text":"他平常不是你管,我知道嘛,我要問內政部嘛但是我現在問你的事情是站在國防部的立場全部的人一起來保護國家你們是不是也至少會期待說那我有一塊是什麼我國防部沒辦法做的是替代役來幫我們處理的嘛,應該是吧是嘛,我就問你這句話而已嘛那我請問說這個時候你們在國防部的認知裡面替代役的這一批"},{"start":610.526,"end":629.722,"text":"他們能夠協助的是哪些事?你們期待他們幫你們補足你們國防體系、國軍體系沒有辦法補足的哪些事?除了作戰以外,任何對我們只要能夠把我們主任務、作戰任務完全由國軍來支援、來做,不要再去扯到別的地方去,還有我們派人的,我都樂見啊。"},{"start":630.503,"end":631.804,"text":"我為什麼要這樣問?那個副司長嘛,醫生司"},{"start":661.069,"end":675.109,"text":"我先請問你們的替代役叫招著重EMT救護能力所以你們的假設是說一旦發生緊急戰端或者是緊急的這些狀況我們的替代役我們最缺的是醫療人員是不是?"},{"start":676.308,"end":704.273,"text":"我想我們這個部分替代的部分就是做後勤的輔助性工作對,所以你說你們手中EMT嘛我請問所以你們的意思就是說一旦發生這些事情全台灣當時最缺乏的是整個整個在軍方最需要的後援是EMT嗎?我們這個部分我們把替代的備役分成兩組治安維護組跟防災救護組那防災救護組他就負責災害的搶救跟緊急救護的部分"},{"start":705.328,"end":729.941,"text":"那災害搶救在你們的訓練裡面你們怎麼做?所以呢我們災害救護的部分跟緊急救護的部分所以我們著重EMT-1就是緊急救護因為他們從109年開始他們每個替代人在成功年已經取得了EMT-1的證照像這一次我們109到現在3年因為前面疫情的關係我們沒辦法把他召回來訓練112年已經滿3年了我們召回來就是讓他的緊急救護證照的技術"},{"start":736.345,"end":764.104,"text":"我沒有反對大家都學會緊急照護我現在問的事情是你們把替代役招回來訓練EMT-1這裡面有一些人他可能已經取得了相關的智能了我們現在有一些人在自訓第二個事情是他們訓練你的重點放在這裡所以你期待他們未來一旦發生狀況的時候他們就會來做這件事情的你們對於替代役的認知跟概念是希望他們這麼做你們當初在招替代役的時候全部都是醫療替代役嗎?"},{"start":765.044,"end":767.345,"text":"我現在是看到你們在媒體上說你們都做EMT-1"},{"start":782.381,"end":805.416,"text":"我想我們今年做的主要的部分就是跟委員報告就是說因為我們一百...我最後講一件事情因為我超過時間我不要delay大家的時間我講一個事情啦今年台中我們也做了相關的這個外安演習嘛對不對我也有去親自去看我也看了大家很認真沒有錯一旦緊急狀況之下好那個什麼馬上設立那個分類戰救傷這個什麼我們講的減傷分類戰減傷分類戰馬上分類分一分救護車去醫院了對不對"},{"start":812.982,"end":831.66,"text":"請問一下,假設我們今天發生戰災,醫院是正常運作嗎?我先問你,你用一個一般人腦袋告訴我,發生戰災的時候醫院是正常運作嗎?所以你認為這種狀況之下,因有因有送去醫院,他們就能夠正常的被運作、被照顧嗎?"},{"start":835.993,"end":847.723,"text":"大家不要只看到你們覺得我這樣講我再次強調替代役這一邊我們要把人家回來招訓我們認我們一直強調很重要第一他們要清楚知道他們怎麼跟國防部配合"},{"start":848.803,"end":876.934,"text":"我一直強調所以我今天全動數署長也在這部長也在這我已經講非常多次了國防部不要一個態度說我一旦發生事情你們就小心我們自己會把自己的國家保護好我們相信你們會把國家保護好我們希望的是相關的其他人員不但不要添亂還可以成為你們的back up那這個時候你們就必須要清楚讓各部會知道我們平常有什麼人可以用一旦發生事情的時候這些人會出來承擔原來社會正常運作之下的什麼位置"},{"start":878.243,"end":892.966,"text":"所以不要自己想想說那我們就來訓練EMT-1好了這個到時候我就問你嘛一旦發生這種狀況你EMT-1這些守衛後輩他們都會乖乖出來當EMT-1嗎?然後乖乖出來當EMT-1檢查分類完哦好高興我分類完了醫院那邊是什麼狀況你們知道嗎?"},{"start":894.963,"end":920.858,"text":"整個你們完全就是一人只做一段的我還是這樣講權動署這邊我對你們的要求很高這也不是一個署長可以完全承諾我們去跟其他跨部會做這種整合的今天我在講就是你看你們光站在我面前內政部跟國防部你們兩邊根本就是對於替代這一群可以來協助國家在戰災或者是緊急狀況之下可以做什麼事情的根本沒有彼此之間的合作概念啊"},{"start":921.698,"end":922.659,"text":"我跟委員報告平常在訓練當中各有各的部門各有各的項目我們把它給做好"},{"start":944.378,"end":971.678,"text":"但堅強,如果一旦作戰又弱了,那我現在我就反問吧,假如在沒有敵情的狀況下,很平常﹖我們當然知道平常可以不用嘛﹖我們要訓練,把它訓練好,作戰有其他額外會干擾的。所以作戰額外干擾的,我們今天做這些訓練,那一旦發生作戰額外的狀況之下,我剛剛講,JPT大概你平常做這件事情在幹什麼?我們先把目前平健的狀況下把它做好嘛,做好以後,其他狀況加進去,如果再急救的話,炸彈來了怎麼辦?"},{"start":974.388,"end":991.658,"text":"所以這個東西就是我一直說你們這個替代役的訓練裡面今天我沒有怪你們任何一個部會我是說你們兩個部會之間的整合跟任務方向拜託要用這個方式來看我們的訓練這些年輕人回來受訓他們期待的是受到對國家有幫助的訓練"},{"start":992.398,"end":1010.089,"text":"各位委員沒有必要拜託,全眾署成立目的何在?就整合各部會嗎?全眾署你有整合各部會嗎?其他一的所有的精進方案、訓練各方面,我們大小會議都有參與,都密切合作,跟委員報告。你們給了他們什麼資料?"},{"start":1017.503,"end":1017.843,"text":"憲政部委員"}]}},{"id":"148963","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148963","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029edd171281dd6162792351fad24fff329c986728e607a032267be5a84947bdd715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡適應","委員發言時間":"11:47:12 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11:59:19","影片長度":"00:12:07","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":727,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:59:19+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:47:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":862,"blocks":[["蔡委員適應：（11時47分）謝謝主席。能不能請部長就備詢台？"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長國正：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員適應：部長，我想請問一下，您曉不曉得高檢署在11月22日起訴了一個共諜案？"],["邱部長國正：我知道。"],["蔡委員適應：你知道總共幾位被起訴嗎？"],["邱部長國正：現役的有七個。"],["蔡委員適應：我覺得滿嚴重的！"],["邱部長國正：是滿嚴重的。"],["蔡委員適應：我唸一下這幾位的名字，陳裕炘、蕭翔云、謝秉成、謝孟書、何信儒、洪睿洋、康奕彬……等，都在陸軍相關單位。"],["邱部長國正：我剛剛也有講過，有退役也有現役，現役有7位……"],["蔡委員適應：我為什麼這樣講？因為這是最近這兩年所發生的狀況，我先請問部長，這個案子是誰發現的？"],["邱部長國正：我們的官兵發覺有異後就報告，然後就起案、往下追所追出來的。"],["蔡委員適應：什麼時候立案？"],["邱部長國正：立案……"],["陳局長育琳：5月份。我們今年5月掌握到不法事證就起案了。"],["蔡委員適應：你們有移給國安局嗎？還是調查局？"],["陳局長育琳：是，檢調共辦。"],["蔡委員適應：我問過調查局，他們說是他們起案，不是你們起案的！"],["陳局長育琳：我們有接獲檢舉，國安單位也有接獲檢舉。"],["蔡委員適應：我的瞭解好像……部長，你要確認一下！我瞭解的好像是檢調先瞭解這個案子後，才回過來通知國防部相關單位！"],["邱部長國正：不是！一開頭我們知道這些訊息以後，有提供，我們也有查，而且還擴大！擴大以後就帶出一些問題來！我們沒有要搶哪個先後……"],["蔡委員適應：我覺得這點很重要！部長，你沒有要搶先後，可是就我國會議員的立場來看，我覺得這件事情很嚴重！"],["邱部長國正：是很嚴重啊！我們也……"],["蔡委員適應：我所謂的很嚴重是，第一，軍中有保防系統，但他不是一個人，這是像肉粽一樣一整串的共諜案。如果不是軍中保防先發現，而是由法務部調查局桃園市調查處跟國安工作站先發現的話，那我覺得這問題很嚴重！"],["邱部長國正：哪個先發覺的？我請保防安全處處長來報告。"],["簡處長熒宏：向委員報告，在110年時國安單位接獲通報，有檢舉人檢獲另外一條線索，本部在110年也有相關一條線索，我們報請國安局統合之後發現，這兩個案的線索有關聯性，所以一起合併辦理共同偵辦。以上。"],["蔡委員適應：這是你的說明，但是我理解到的跟你說的完全顛倒。","部長，我講此事是希望部長去瞭解一下。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，不管哪一個先發覺，但我們在追……事實……"],["蔡委員適應：當然事後需要追，我要講的意思是，這件案子裡面，其中幾個比較嚴重的，部長，內容你都看過沒有？"],["邱部長國正：我概略知道，我沒有逐條看，但是他們把檢方的起訴書……"],["蔡委員適應：部長可以詳細看一下檢方起訴書的內容，裡面有提到什麼事情……"],["邱部長國正：他們有跟我講，是。"],["蔡委員適應：提到化學兵的少校把化學兵的相關編制表送給中國，其中有一位謝孟書還跟中國講好了，要駕駛CH-47逃到中國去，中間還到泰國去跟他們談過相關的事情，然後還發虛擬貨幣給他；還有一個何信儒，花防部的少校作戰官，把花東防衛的固安計畫傳給中國；還有一個洪睿洋104旅的，把陸軍司令部的訓練計畫等等送到中國去；還有一個叫康奕彬的，金防部守衛大隊的情報官，把金門作戰計畫的相關資料送入中國，這些資料在起訴書中寫得非常清楚，然後有些都是你們核定的極機密，120年以後才能夠解密的，這真的是軍中很嚴重的一個醜聞案，因為涉及這麼多人，不是只有一個耶！透過一個退役軍官陳裕炘就可以聯絡到這麼多人，有化學兵科的、有航特部的、花防部的、金防部的、裝甲旅的，還有臺南守備隊。","部長，我覺得此事不是大概看過知道內容就好了，我覺得要嚴查這件事情，真的是要嚴查這件事情。起訴書裡面寫得非常多，看完之後我真的是驚心動魄，寫小說都沒有那麼會寫啊！所以我為什麼第一個問題先問部長，這個案子是誰發覺的？如果今天國防部在這個事情是第二個後面才知道的，而是檢調，法務部調查局跟國安工作站先瞭解的話，那我們應該要去瞭解軍中建立的保防體系為什麼會這樣？一個中校分隊長已經跟人家談到什麼時候要駕駛直升機過去了，部隊裡面有沒有人知道這件事情？有沒有人知道這件事情？國防部有第一時間先把位置換掉，然後移請調查嗎？還是檢調直接衝到營區裡面去抓人，把人帶走了，我們才知道原來這個人有涉案？或者是說金防部的，或者是我們那個花防部的把資料都送出去，而且用什麼，用Telegram的軟體送出去，我們軍中保防不是強調手機都必須要做管制嗎？","部長，這些事情我們以前都談過，為什麼他會用了這些東西，還有在使用虛擬貨幣？然後有規定營區不能帶其他非相關的手機，都要保存起來嘛，這裡面寫得很清楚啊！對岸中國的相關人員還把特別的手機交給這些人，讓他們用這些特別的手機來翻拍，然後裡面還寫到什麼？還寫到我們裡面有很多相關保管資料的軍官，沒有注意資料就外洩出去了，我不曉得是真的沒有注意還是故意沒有注意？我就問部長一件事情，你說你有瞭解，來，你們這個案子到目前為止，你們調查之後有多少極機密的案件需要重新修正？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我們當初偵查以後一有這種狀況，我們第一個移送法辦以外，先做一個職務調整，該要撤的就撤了……"],["蔡委員適應：這些人是被調查以後才法辦，還是之前就先……"],["邱部長國正：沒有，我們發覺以後一方面送辦，再一方面我們行政就開始處理了。"],["蔡委員適應：好，部長你這樣講，我想請教你一個問題，那個謝孟書是被檢調逮捕之後才調整單位，還是之前就調整單位？"],["邱部長國正：先調整吧？先調整，通常都還是先調整。"],["蔡委員適應：好，第二個，何信儒呢？"],["邱部長國正：要一個一個講啊？你們知不知道？"],["蔡委員適應：我就問啊！是先調整單位，還是已經直接被逮捕了之後才調整單位？知不知道？"],["邱部長國正：先調整了嗎？就你們是不是要叫……"],["蔡委員適應：何信儒，花防部少校作戰官。"],["陳參謀長建義：跟委員報告，在獲悉保防安全他們相關的報告之後，我們是先不可以有任何的動作，因為整個已經進入檢調的階段，但是這……"],["蔡委員適應：所以你的意思是說，你們已經知道他有問題，但是你們沒有動他的職務就對了？你的意思是這樣子？"],["陳參謀長建義：我們事先掌握，對，那……"],["蔡委員適應：好，那為什麼剛才講航特部那個就說先調職，這又邏輯不通了嘛！"],["邱部長國正：它各單位不一樣嘛，我的要求講的是要先調整職務，但並沒有好像講的這個明目張膽的，先調整開之後調查，這個我們不一定……"],["蔡委員適應：剛才參謀長的講法是說怕影響到讓他知悉到，讓他發現……"],["邱部長國正：不，但是有些工作已經不准他接觸了，所以……"],["蔡委員適應：那比如說像我問到的，金防部守備大隊康奕彬呢？"],["陳局長育琳：報告委員，我們在調查的過程當中有做相關的損害管控，每個個案不一樣，方便的話，我們會後派人跟您做說明。"],["蔡委員適應：好，那我想問一下，目前檢調查到的，我只講查到的，沒查到的我不知道，查到的機密跟極機密的部分總共多少件？你們有統計吧？有嘛，我只問總共多少件？"],["陳局長育琳：因為目前起訴之後，現在高等法院還在偵查當中。"],["蔡委員適應：起訴之後高等法院要開庭審理，不是在偵查，裡面已經寫得很清楚，檢調目前查獲的有多少件機密或極機密的案子，上面有寫，我只問說上面有寫，你們知道多少件嗎？第一個你一定要知道多少件，你才能夠做損害控管吧，所以我現在問一下國防部的，有人可以告訴我，總共多少件極機密就好了，否則你怎麼做損害控管呢？"],["邱部長國正：這個件數……"],["蔡委員適應：好，部長，我問到這邊，我時間到了。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，要講件數的話，我們還要詳細的查，了解之後再跟你回報。"],["蔡委員適應：沒關係，部長，我建議這樣子，因為這個事情還蠻重要的，我這個不是在……"],["邱部長國正：是蠻重要的，我沒有等閒看之。"],["蔡委員適應：對，我問這個不是在苛責部長，因為國防部的人……"],["邱部長國正：我不怕人家苛責……"],["蔡委員適應：國防部的人那麼多，我們每一個單位都有每個人負責的工作，我剛剛就提到，其中有一些軍中的保防是重要的一件事情，有沒有落實到營區的管理，這是重要的事情，比如像剛剛我們提到的，為什麼Telegram會有其他的手機會帶到營區裡面去，而且裡面養的是所謂的作戰官、情報官，理論上這是最應該要恪遵相關規定的職務的人，這些人他本身都違法的話，那代表什麼？代表他的主官管可能平常沒有在注意這件事情嘛，我講的這些就是我們要瞭解的狀況。","第二個狀況是，事情發生之後，國安跟檢調的相關單位在調查完之後，都有把這些內容在起訴書中寫出來，包括我們自己內部的調查裡面就要非常清楚的知道，我有多少極機密的案件、我有多少機密的案件有可能外洩，甚至其實是不止的，因為他可能只講了這五個，可能有六個、七個、八個，另外我們沒查到的這些相關涉案人士就不講出來，在這種狀況之下，各個單位你要不要重新修正？這些都是要做的事情嘛！我剛剛只是問了一個問題說，有幾件案子要修正？好，那也許你覺得這又是機密了，我只是說檢調的起訴書上已經有寫多少件了啊！","拜託部長，這件事情從事情發生至今剛好都是在你任內發生的，從110年開始，您就任部長之後就開始陸陸續續發生這些事情，我認為這是非常重要的一件事情，我也拜託部長，把這個起訴書的內容研析清楚。就我的理解，你們現在去調相關的整個資料應該是可以調得到，我建議你們，除了起訴書之外，檢調相關的偵查報告內容，還有加上我們國防部自己的內部調查，都把它彙整清楚，因為我覺得這個案子實在太誇張、太嚴重了，裡面幾個小兵、小官、士官跟阿兵哥說拍影片，我覺得那就算了，裡面有很多的校級軍官跟尉級軍官去拍了我們重要的極機密資料，然後把它傳給中國去，這真的是很莫名其妙的事情啦！沒有發現的還不曉得有多少件，所以拜託部長，這件事情好好的瞭解調查清楚。以上，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員。","接下來請林靜儀委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以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來你們這個案子到目前為止你們調查之後有多少極機密的案件需要重新修正"},{"start":422.403,"end":449.24,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們當初審查以後一有這種狀況,我們第一個一送法辦以外先做一個職務調整,該要撤就撤了。這些人是被調查以後才法辦,還是之前就先...發掘以後,一方面送辦,再一方面我們行政局開始處理。那這樣好,部長你這樣講我想請教你一個問題啊,那個卸謀書是被檢調逮捕之後才調整單位,還是之前就調整單位?先調整吧。"},{"start":450.367,"end":451.688,"text":"二、何姓盧花防部少校座三官"},{"start":468.722,"end":496.013,"text":"各位委員報告在這個獲悉保防安全他們相關的報告之後那我們是要不可以先有任何的動作那因為整個已經是進入減調的階段那但是所以你的意思是說你們已經知道他有問題但是你們沒有動他的職務就對了我們的意思是這樣子那為什麼剛才講了一個航特部就說先調職這又邏輯不通了吧"},{"start":497.143,"end":499.224,"text":"那比如說像我問到的那金防部守備大隊抗疫兵呢?"},{"start":521.141,"end":537.167,"text":"報告委員,我們在調查的過程當中有做相關的損害管控,每個個案不一樣,那方便的話我們會合派人跟你做說明。目前檢調查到的,我只講查到的,沒查到的我不知道,查到的機密跟極機密的部分總共多少件?你們有統計吧?有嗎?我只問總共多少件?"},{"start":543.168,"end":547.391,"text":"因為目前起訴之後現在高等法院還在偵查當中。"},{"start":575.546,"end":582.528,"text":"否則你怎麼損壞空管呢?國防部長我問到這邊我時間到了齁。國防部的人那麼多啦齁。我們每一個單位都有每個人負責的工作。"},{"start":598.474,"end":617.593,"text":"那我剛剛就提到就是說這個裡面有一些軍中的保防是重要的一件事情有沒有落實到營區的管理這是重要的事情比如像剛剛我們提到的為什麼Telegram或有其他手機會帶到營區裡面去而且裡面講的是所謂的作戰官、情報官這個理論上是最應該要克軍相關我們規定的職務的人馬"},{"start":618.894,"end":646.556,"text":"好,那這些人他本身都違法的話那代表什麼?代表他的主觀觀可能會平常沒有在注意這件事情嘛那我想這些就是我們要了解的狀況第二個狀況是事情發生之後國安檢調的相關單位在調查完之後都有把這些檢調的起訴書寫出來我包括我們自己內部的調查裡面就要非常的清楚知道我有多少極機密的案件我有多少機密的案件有可能外洩甚至其實是不只的啊"},{"start":647.369,"end":648.81,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":668.129,"end":688.17,"text":"拜託部長,這件事情,從事情發生,剛好都是在任內的事情發生的,從110年開始,您就任部長之後開始錄製的這件事情發生,我認為這是非常重要的一件事情。那我也拜託部長,把這個起訴書的內容延期清楚。我的理解啦,你們現在去調相關的整個的資料應該是可以調得到啦。"},{"start":689.629,"end":716.454,"text":"我建議你們把除了起訴書之外相關檢調的偵查報告內容還有加上我們國防部自己內部調查都把它彙整清楚因為我覺得這個案子實在太誇張太嚴重了裡面幾個小兵小官士官跟阿兵哥說拍影片我覺得那就算了裡面有很多的校級軍官跟衛級軍官就拍了我們的重要的集機秘密資料把它傳給中國去這真的是很莫名其妙的事情啊"},{"start":718.108,"end":724.841,"text":"所以我要如果沒有發現的不曉得有多少件所以拜託部長這件事情好好的了解調查清楚以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"148962","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148962","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029ded6a6973fc47989bdc0b11ed89c5ff9c986728e607a0322b927b96357d7ed705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:33:11 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Banking）政策之回顧與展望（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【12月11日及13日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-20"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":670,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:44:21+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:33:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":792,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時33分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，請保險局局長上臺，讓主委先喝口水。"],["主席：好，請保險局施局長上臺備詢。"],["羅委員明才：今天大概是本屆這個會期最後一次委員會議了，我們要審慎來思考一下，究竟銀行、證券、保險等金融界，這幾年經營的情況有沒有上軌道。現在目前大概有幾家壽險公司跟產險公司，從過去20年到現在，整個資產規模變化非常非常大，我們知道局長在這個位置很辛苦的經營，也讓所有的業者可以說是大發財，整個金融整體，去年、今年算一算大概已經賺了7,500多億了吧，局長，你覺得他們這樣的表現是不是一個正常的發展？對於未來的話，因為你好像也快退休了，什麼時候退休？你可不可以集你一生的功力，趁最後幾次上臺的機會跟大家分享一下多年來的經驗。"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，我是明年退休，剛剛委員提到7,000多億的部分，應該是指整個金融產業，至於我們的部分，今年產、壽險都有獲利，但是獲利的程度應該還沒有那麼高。"],["羅委員明才：是，在產險的部分，現在都已經損益兩平了嗎？因為今年遭受很大的傷害。"],["施局長瓊華：今年到10月左右，整個稅後淨利大概是130億左右。"],["羅委員明才：產險的部分嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：初步自結的產險部分。"],["羅委員明才：那比較恢復了，請問產險有沒有還在虧損的或者會倒閉的？"],["施局長瓊華：產險的部分，在6月底的時候還有一家RBC沒有符合標準，但是到目前為止都已經提升到200以上了，產險的部分全部都符合法定標準。"],["羅委員明才：大概有二十幾家嘛，產險。"],["施局長瓊華：對。"],["羅委員明才：壽險的部分呢？從大概20年前到現在，以前的規模很小，現在整個資產規模有多大？為什麼在這短短一、二十年會產生如此大的變化，是政策的支持嗎？因為我們看到買外國的國債及公債最多的其實就是壽險公司，一買就買好幾兆，手上的數字大概是買了多少兆？"],["施局長瓊華：跟委員報告，壽險業目前資產規模大概35兆左右。"],["羅委員明才：35兆？"],["施局長瓊華：對、對、對，國外投資的部分大概22兆左右，大部分，大概有九成多都是在固定收益、有價證券的部分。"],["羅委員明才：大概都是以什麼計價？美元還是歐元？"],["施局長瓊華：有九成左右是美元計價的，九成以上……"],["羅委員明才：九成以上？"],["施局長瓊華：九成以上的國外投資。"],["羅委員明才：對，我看還滿集中的，所以也要小心，海外的投資過去也曾經慘遭滑鐵盧啊！有人投資俄羅斯、有人投資以色列，對於壽險公司未來海外投資規範會不會有一個審核的標準？"],["施局長瓊華：我們都有訂規範啦，尤其是在整個風險控管的部分有要求壽險業對於投資面要進行相關的投資管理。"],["羅委員明才：好像也是有碰觸地雷的啊！"],["施局長瓊華：之前在2008年的時候，那時候也有一些投資虧損，但是現在各公司在整個投資上比過去的法令更行嚴謹，我想他們應該可以……"],["羅委員明才：總共是二十幾家壽險公司吧？"],["施局長瓊華：21家壽險公司。"],["羅委員明才：這21家壽險公司當中有沒有目前還是虧損的？"],["施局長瓊華：以目前來看的話，是有虧損的，比如說像我們後面有幾家RBC還沒有達到法定標準的公司。"],["羅委員明才：三家、五家比較後段班？"],["施局長瓊華：三家。"],["羅委員明才：有三家？這三家會不會倒啊？"],["施局長瓊華：跟委員報告，……"],["羅委員明才：他們增資好像都沒有增資欸！"],["施局長瓊華：有，有一些公司有增資，有一些公司也出售了不動產，然後也提升了出租率，所以在提升RBC上，他們目前都在努力當中。"],["羅委員明才：哪三家？"],["施局長瓊華：這三家就是宏泰、新光跟三商。"],["羅委員明才：三商已經增資了吧？"],["施局長瓊華：三商在上半年跟下半年都有增資。"],["羅委員明才：會不會再出狀況？"],["施局長瓊華：他們也在努力當中。"],["羅委員明才：是，我們覺得壽險公司良莠不齊，你看好的可以好到非常好，賺了很多很多的錢，而經營比較沒有上軌道的居然還會出現虧損，這個不曉得問題是出在哪裡，是因為它的營業限制項目嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：我們大概沒有特別限制哪一家的營業項目啦，有一些公司可能在投資上比較沒有表現的那麼好，有一些可能是業務上的影響。"],["羅委員明才：所以主要是投資方面沒有做好風控或者是投錯地方，比如說投到俄羅斯，結果一戰爭就虧了50億、60億、70億，到現在也還沒結嘛，帳還是掛在那邊。我們希望主管機關對這些壽險公司要特別注意，因為畢竟全民投保的利益是在這個地方，不能讓保戶到時候受到災害的時候要理賠也沒有辦法理賠。"],["施局長瓊華：是，委員我們會努力。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝施局長。"],["施局長瓊華：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員明才：接下來請黃天牧主委。"],["主席：請黃主委上臺備詢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好，謝謝你。"],["羅委員明才：黃主委，你好。去年這樣算一算，金融整體的獲益超過7,500億，也大概是歷史的次高，面對這樣一個情況，應該都是養精蓄銳，可以說是兵強馬大，這時候更應該來要求所有的金融相關業者不要讓金融詐騙一再的發生吧，主委，有沒有什麼方法？除了主管機關的注意之外，銀行也要做點事啊，因為畢竟他們是第一線嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實我們配合打詐平臺做了很多法規的調整，銀行在第一線都有配合，包括科技防詐都有在做。"],["羅委員明才：可是還是有詐騙的情況，層出不窮！"],["黃主任委員天牧：詐騙的原因很多，但是就金流阻詐部分，我們真的有努力在做，當然還需要委員多指導，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：金融詐騙變成全國民眾的十大痛惡之一，排名好像是第一還第二，大家覺得好像到處都是危險、處處是危機，可不可以拜託黃主委想辦法，看怎麼樣讓這一些危機化成轉機？不要讓大家一看到這些詐騙都人心惶惶。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員這個拜託我們承擔不起，這是我們應該要做的，而且我們要有同理心，因為每一個人都有可能被詐騙，所以我們在法規上都有在做，包括配合洗防法以及信用卡等方面。當然我想做的也許不見得符合大家的期待，我們會不斷地努力，但是可以看出我們幾乎每個月都有一些新的法規調整、新的制度修正，所以我們是不斷地在精進自己的作為。"],["羅委員明才：因為現在人也有，所以金融機構也有錢，要怎麼樣把防詐防護網安全的設立起來很重要，上一次……"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們最近還把打詐績效放在公平待客機制的評核裡面。對不起！剛剛打斷您的講話。"],["羅委員明才：上一次財政部在網路上，居然變成詐騙集團利用的公家機關。你知道這件事嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：抱歉！我不太清楚。"],["羅委員明才：就是在網路上說財政部有什麼好康的，結果弄半天那個是假的！"],["黃主任委員天牧：金管會也常常被冒用，說他的錢放在金管會被扣留。"],["羅委員明才：金管會也被冒用詐騙嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，我看那個資訊說錢被金管會扣住要找誰，也把我們的名字放進去了。"],["羅委員明才：金管會扣錢有沒有還人家錢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們沒有扣錢。"],["羅委員明才：沒有？"],["黃主任委員天牧：那是假的。"],["羅委員明才：奇怪！為什麼這些歹徒敢在太歲爺上動土？他要打聽一下，黃天牧不是塑膠，也不是好惹的啊！有查出來是誰嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們在我們既有機制上都有查，上週也公布了一些資訊，我們都有定期公布資訊。"],["羅委員明才：我希望要快狠準，真的要把整個打詐、防詐機制充分做好。我們希望所有臺灣的民眾在金融秩序方面可以安心，錢放在銀行是可以放心的，放在銀行裡面定存會生利息是可以領得到的，對銀行是有信心的，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：羅委員，能不能請你稍坐一下？我們很快就把它處理完。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢。現在進行討論事項及臨時提案之處理。請議事人員宣讀今日審查「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」一案提案內容，另含臨時提案共一案。宣讀完畢之後就進行協商。現在請進行宣讀。","一、提案內容：","二、臨時提案：","金管會自2019年推動開放銀行（Open Banking）政策，採鼓勵業者以自願自律方式分三階段實施，2019年第一階段「公開資訊查詢」上線、2020年第二階段「消費者資訊查詢」上線，並擬於2023年12月前核備第三階段「交易面資訊」之自律規範及資安標準，進一步擴大實施第三階段服務。","查銀行公會制定之「銀行與第三方服務提供者合作之自律規範」，僅規定銀行在選擇第三方服務提供者（TSP業者）應該要注意的原則，包括要確保TSP業者的資本額、有資安能力、個資風險管理、遵循洗錢防制法等法規。實因TSP業者非金融機構，其主管機關為經濟部，金管會並無管轄權，故僅將查核責任歸責於銀行，倘未來開放銀行實施第三階段金融交易衍生金融消費爭議，恐不適用金融爭議解決機制。","爰要求金融管理監督委員會研議「跨部會監管開放銀行第三方服務提供者，制定完整金融爭議解決機制，確保金融消費者權益」，並於兩個月內提交書面報告。","提案人：林楚茵　　沈發惠　　鍾佳濱"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 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吧"},{"start":457.588,"end":476.562,"text":"主委有沒有什麼方法除了主管機關的注意之外銀行也要做點事啊因為畢竟他們是第一線嘛其實我們很多配合打詐平台做的法規的調整銀行在第一線都有配合包括科技防詐都有在做那可是還是有詐騙的情況"},{"start":478.353,"end":483.656,"text":"金融詐騙變成全國民眾覺得十大痛物之一大概是排名好像第一還第二大家覺得哇好像到處都是危險處處是危機可不可以拜託黃主委"},{"start":505.805,"end":515.411,"text":"想辦法看怎麼樣讓這一些危機化成轉機讓我們不要一看到這些詐騙都覺得人心惶惶"},{"start":517.642,"end":546.241,"text":"委員這個拜託我們承擔不起是我們應該要做的而且我們是同理心每一個人都有可能被詐騙所以其實我們在法規上包括配合洗房法包括我們自己對信用卡各方面我們都有在做當然我想做的也許不見得符合所有大家的期待我們會再不斷地再努力但是可以看出來我們幾乎每個月都有一些新的法規的調整新的制度的修正所以我們是在不斷地在精進自己的作為"},{"start":547.164,"end":551.032,"text":"因為現在人也有所以金融機構也有錢要怎麼樣來"},{"start":552.472,"end":579.309,"text":"把這個防詐的防護網把它安全的設立起來很重要我們最近還在公平待客中把那個打詐的績效放在公平待客的機制的評核裡面是對不起剛剛打斷您的講話上一次居然財政部還在網路上變成他是詐騙集團使用的一個公家機關你知道這件事嗎抱歉我不太清楚"},{"start":580.368,"end":601.635,"text":"他就是說在這個網址上財政部有什麼什麼什麼後康的還是什麼的結果弄半天那個是假的金管會常被冒用說他的錢放到金管會被扣留啊金管會也被詐騙嗎對啊我看那個資訊中也說錢被金管會扣住你要找誰找誰也把我們的名字放進去了"},{"start":601.872,"end":628.982,"text":"那儘管會扣錢有沒有還人家錢啊?我們沒有扣錢啊沒有那是假的是假的?奇怪那為什麼有這些歹徒他敢在太歲爺上動土他要打聽一下啊黃天牧也不是塑膠啊也不是好惹的啊那有查出來是誰嗎?我們在我們紀有記這上都有查我們上都也公佈了一些資訊我們定期都有公佈資訊"},{"start":630.677,"end":657.511,"text":"我希望說是要快很準把這個打詐防詐整個機制真的要充分的做好我們希望所有的民眾在臺灣在金融秩序方面大家是可以安心的錢放在銀行是可以放心的放在銀行裡面有定存還有升利息是可以領得到的是對銀行是有信心的好不好了解謝謝委員知道謝謝"},{"start":660.743,"end":667.976,"text":"好 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Banking開放銀行的第三階段，今天讓大家知道說自律規範即將要在年底前核備，可是大家質疑，第三階段其實最重要的就是客戶資金交易的服務，這部分目前自律規範是靠自律嗎？那第三方的業者（TSP）未來是誰來監管？目前有一個確定的方向嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：從以往到現在，包括任何委外，銀行如果跟哪個TSP業者服務，銀行就是要對這個TSP業者的行為去做負責，我們是督導銀行，銀行要對我們負責。"],["高委員嘉瑜：因為現在詐騙非常的猖獗，尤其是在第三階段涉及到金融交易資料等等這些訊息的時候，大家要擔心的就是如果銀行的自律發生了問題，或者是TSP有問題，就像現在很多的詐騙，其實都是一個內部、內神通外鬼互相的串聯，然後導致個資外洩的狀況。所以同時我們也發現，目前TSP業者所使用的Open Banking代登錄的機制，就是都用原網銀的驗證，也就是說這個TSP的業者可以取得客戶登錄第三方驗證的所有資料，而這個資料就是登錄銀行最重要的帳號跟密碼。在這種情況之下，如果只靠自律、只靠業者跟銀行之間的規範、自己之間彼此的自律，所造成的資安漏洞、客戶資料的外洩等等，這個到底要誰來負責？是銀行自己負責嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，委員您垂詢的很重要，我剛剛跟您報告，一個是銀行公會自律規範，一個是財經公司會訂定技術跟資安標準，尤其第三階段牽涉到交易面，資安標準會更高，包括前面幾位委員都對這部分有交代，我們會再去檢討。"],["高委員嘉瑜：對，其實過去同樣的包括im.B的事件，一旦大家發生問題的時候，一定都會回頭來問主管機關是誰？誰要負責？而這個時候，如果我們事先就把這個球都踢給銀行說他們來自律、他們自己負責，事後我們都說我們沒有相關的監管或是沒有相關的配套的時候，問題一旦發生，其實政府還是要承擔這個責任。所以目前TSP業者雖然他們都是新創，但是對於未來這些資安，金融等級的安控作業，他們有沒有辦法做到滴水不漏，避免資安的漏洞、個資的外洩，這個是對現在所有的客戶、使用者來講最在意的事情。","當然隨著金融科技化，能夠有這樣子一個Open Banking是大家期待的一個方向，可是同時如何來避免這些資料外洩？有很多的代登錄的機制曾經也被玉山銀行偵測到來源的IP是在國外，如果今天TSP的業者，它的IP是涉及到中國或者是間接中資，那這樣的狀況可不可以申請Open Banking？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員總括來說，您關心的事情非常重要，包括TSP本身資安的水準、銀行本身的資安水準、消費者保護等，這個都會在我們的規範中一併去考慮跟處理。"],["高委員嘉瑜：所以剛剛我問到的，如果說TSP的業者跟中資是有關係的，而今天我們的客戶、臺灣的銀行這些資料，有可能包括剛剛所說的帳號、密碼，它可能藉此外流到TSP業者，那你光靠業者自律是遠遠不夠，包括國安、包括其他層面的問題才是今天我們也要考量的。現在我問的，如果TSP的業者後面有中資、有中國的IP等等的這些狀況，到底能不能介接？能不能適用我們的Open Banking？"],["黃主任委員天牧：您垂詢的地方當然是我們的顧慮，我們一定會在規範中或是審查中去做處理。"],["高委員嘉瑜：你沒有回答我們的問題嘛！因為包括現在的蝦皮，過去大家也質疑說它背後就是中資，還有抖音的問題等等，能不能申請介接呢？能不能來做Open Banking呢？因為依照我們個資法相關的規定，如果民眾每天登錄業者的app都顯示登錄成功，但是還會有一個是「非臺灣地區登錄」的警告，久而久之我們就會忽略說這個資料是不是被中國或外國入侵，因為長期以來你登錄都是這樣子的一個通知，所以後面其實就像狼來了，或者久而久之大家就忽略了對自己個資或資安保護的問題。所以現在就這個部分，其實有很多大家質疑的問題還沒有辦法得到釐清，但因為年底前就有可能會開放的情況之下，這部分到底什麼時候能夠有一個比較明確的規定？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我可能沒有講得很完整，很抱歉，我們是年底前完成它報來我們會審查，審查之後只是一個規範，規範在開放之後，還要真正的TSP業者或銀行向我們申請，這個還有一個過程。我剛剛說可能要到明年上半年，但是……"],["高委員嘉瑜：好，但是剛剛所質疑的啦，包括說中資或者是有涉及到國家利益、國安的問題，主管機關如果沒有辦法去監管、沒有辦法去瞭解的時候，這中間有沒有把個資傳送到其他的國家，還有被儲存到哪裡等等，這些我們有沒有一個監管的機制？未來會不會知道？會不會有這樣子的一個配套？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們現在就是有這些考慮，不過今天很感謝召委安排這樣一個報告，今天委員給我們的指導，我們會趕快去看看現在報來的銀行公會自律規範跟財經的資安技術標準，有沒有符合委員這樣的期待，如果沒有符合我們會去修正。"],["高委員嘉瑜：就是說後面的配套，剛剛所質疑的這些，都必須要有，能夠讓金管會隨時能夠掌握到底這些TSP業者有沒有外流到中國、後面有沒有中資，或者這個被資料下載之後，是不是確實按資安的規範，不會再被轉移到其他人的手上而造成個資外洩的疑慮跟風險，這部分一定要有明確的規範跟保證，也要有配套，大家才能夠放心，這個金管會是可以做到的嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：可以，我們一定會準備好才上路，不會為了要上路而上路。"],["高委員嘉瑜：好，另外關於純網保，過去金管會一直告訴我們說「麻雀飛來，純網保很快就會有」等等，我想今天也很多人在關心，說了這麼久結果到現在卻是一場空，最後完全沒有任何一家純網保可以上路。現在金管會又說明年要捲土重來，保險局12月要評估，請問在原本條件這麼嚴格的一個狀況之下，未來會進一步放寬嗎？如果沒有放寬，又如何能夠保證明年會有純網保呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實原來我不認為那是嚴格，那本來就是大家對純網銀的期待，希望它有一個可以運行的商業模式，我們只是確定純網保也有一個可以運行的商業模式，我不覺得那一定是嚴的……"],["高委員嘉瑜：如果是這樣，為什麼沒有任何一家公司願意來做或是通過我們金管會的審查？"],["黃主任委員天牧：那是因為它送來的資料，沒辦法證明它是可被執行的模式。"],["高委員嘉瑜：也就是說你認為它會虧損是不是？沒有獲利的空間嗎？什麼叫做無法證明它是可被執行的？"],["黃主任委員天牧：就是它跟異業合作的創新模式，沒有辦法得到審查委員認同，認為這樣一個模式將來是可以營運、可以獲利的。"],["高委員嘉瑜：所以你就是認為它不會獲利嘛！那我們的純網銀也是虧損連連啊！虧損連連到現在，你當初認為它會獲利嗎？到現在還不是在虧損，那你還不是讓它過？那純網保對於民眾來講有更大的需求，現在很多的網路世代，民眾可能都會用網路去保純網保，需求上其實是有這樣的必要性可以去做比較，可以去做更多的這些配套。為什麼這個部分反而目前沒有看到任何一家願意來做的？而且在國際上我們有比較出來喔！數位化或保險科技在其他國家其實都已經是非常的普遍，但是在臺灣目前是一家都沒有，這種狀況其實是金管會的條件過於嚴苛？還是說臺灣市場的問題？到底問題出在哪裡？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這幾年我們在網路投保上已經有大幅的開放，今年10月有開放保險公司做異業的合作跟電子商務的開放，目前已經有……"],["高委員嘉瑜：這部分可以保證明年會有純網保嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個是讓現有的業者能夠在網路上有更多商業的機會。"],["高委員嘉瑜：所以明年會有嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：純網保在明年1月底會跟各位報告我們評估的結果。"],["高委員嘉瑜：好。","最後，因為我上次沒有問到的，就是IFRS 17的問題，我們認為金管會對壽險業是一再的通融，IFRS 17不斷的拖延，2019年的時候告訴我們，考量國情2025年上路；到了2022年，又說考量國情，2026年上路；到10月的時候，史無前例的容許壽險業來做資產重分類、美化帳目；到了2023年，最近、最新的11月報告則是告訴我們說，要有15年的過渡期，讓壽險業喘口氣，所以整個就是一拖再拖，臺灣接軌IFRS 17在國際上已經是後段班，讓這些壽險公司不斷地延長壽命，他們其實在延長壽命的過程中，卻在逃避他們該有的責任，包括現金增資，所以這樣比較下來，臺灣是全世界目前最晚接軌IFRS 17的，要到2041年，請問2041年主委你都幾歲了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這是我的個資吧！"],["高委員嘉瑜：這不是個資啊！對不對？2041年接軌，距離現在也將近快要20年的時間，是非常晚的時間，那時候會發生什麼事情我們都不知道，但我們的IFRS 17竟然要到2041年才能完全接軌，你不覺得這20年真的太長了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，每個國家接軌都是有一些寬限期，像歐盟接軌那個清償能力II也是有16年。"],["高委員嘉瑜：可是人家很早就開始接軌了，臺灣是2026年才要開始接軌，還要再給他們15年的過渡期，連韓國都是從今年1月1號開始接軌，到現在10年過渡期，最晚也是2033年，我們還比人家再晚了8年。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，其實主要是因為我們民國90年代以前賣了很多6以上的高利率保單，都是長年期、終身的，其實我們這樣做也是保障我們保戶的權益。"],["高委員嘉瑜：所以你們是要等他們消化完畢，才要讓他們去面對現在現金增資的這個需求嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：不完全是消化完畢，而是我們給配套措施、給寬限期，讓它逐年慢慢去調整。"],["高委員嘉瑜：好。最後，再兩個小問題，一個是星展併花旗的案件，消費糾紛不斷的頻傳，客戶投訴越來越多，但是我們沒有看到金管會有任何的作為，很多存戶的權益受到影響，還有卡戶的權益也是一樣。另外，街口投信的胡亦嘉自行宣布回任董事，完全是在挑戰我們的金管會，但是金管會對街口卻是一再的寬容，罰鍰都非常得低，街口投信違反期貨信託法，也只開罰120萬，現在還公然挑戰金管會，但金管會的作為在哪裡？"],["黃主任委員天牧：街口投信目前就我的瞭解，如果要申請回任，必須先向投信投顧公會去申請，目前……"],["高委員嘉瑜：他可以自行宣布嗎？自行宣布回任董事是什麼意思？金管會沒有同意之前自行宣布，這是什麼意思？"],["黃主任委員天牧：他要怎麼表達，我想……"],["高委員嘉瑜：金管會到底在怕街口什麼啊？金管會你現在沒有任何一個罰鍰或是讓他這樣混淆視聽，他現在是不是街口董事？"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前不是金管會……"],["高委員嘉瑜：金管會也沒有同意，在金管會沒有同意之前，他就不能擔任街口投信的董事，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是的。"],["高委員嘉瑜：對啊！那他為什麼可以自行宣布回任呢？那這樣是不是在混淆視聽，影響市場的信心，讓大家認為說他是街口投信的董事，他可以這樣子招搖撞騙嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們在記者會也有說明，一切以金管會最後同意為主。"],["主席：高委員，是不是注意一下時間？"],["高委員嘉瑜：所以我們還是希望金管會能夠拿出相關的罰則，針對街口投信還有像星展銀行類似這樣子對於消費者、對於這些存戶、對於金融市場都會產生影響，如果金管會都不處理，會讓人家覺得像這些為所欲為的金融機構這樣子招搖撞騙，自己說自己是投信董事，都還可以逃過我們相關的制裁，我覺得這樣子可能就沒有辦法去取信於社會大眾，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝高委員。接下來我們請陳椒華陳委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 二、審查本院民進\n黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00004"}}},{"id":"148958","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148958","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a7202992d5ddf92ada601e92351fad24fff329c986728e607a032212eae036270d068b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"江啟臣","委員發言時間":"10:51:14 - 11:06:53","影片長度":"00:15:39","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":939,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:06:53+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:51:14+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":600,"blocks":[["江委員啟臣：（10時51分）謝謝，請主席邀請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：江委員好。"],["江委員啟臣：部長，今年臺灣代表字的票選，大家選出「缺」字，我看你對這個字有做出回應，你說國軍缺乏更好的場地、訓練、更好的裝備等等。我請教一下部長，缺場地的部分，你現在覺得最缺的是哪一部分？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員首先說明，我沒有講什麼缺場地，我講缺的是我們缺乏訓練，我擔憂我們訓練不足，我只怕這一個。"],["江委員啟臣：所以是缺乏訓練？"],["邱部長國正：對，因為那天有這個字出來，結果就問我，我講我沒有表達任何意見，委員不要誤會，我沒有講缺場地……"],["江委員啟臣：OK，我看到媒體寫到你說缺更好的場地訓練。"],["邱部長國正：對，我們期待訓練得更好，這是當然要的。"],["江委員啟臣：我想說奇怪，所有我們該蓋的場地等等，立法院幾乎全部都給你預算，但是的確有一些延宕，對不對？你們在發包的時候，或者在做一些工程施作的時候，我們每一年審查預算常常都會出現預算沒有執行或執行率不佳。第一個，場地的部分，我認為基本上國防部編列的預算立法院幾乎都審議通過、都是支持的，所以接下來是你們執行率的問題。至於你提到更好的訓練這一塊，我想這個也的確是一個大問題，但不管是場地、人或者是裝備，包括裝備的部分，其實大家也都很關心，之前大家認為一些軍購延宕，雖然後來你們也修改了發價書，變更了交貨的期程，不過這個變更是延後的，這也是一個事實。我現在要問的就是，不管是F-16V、反裝甲的飛彈或者是肩射的刺針防空飛彈、M1A2T的裝甲車，還有F-16上面所用到的我們所採購的相關裝備，更改後的日期會不會再變？"],["邱部長國正：不會再變，因為……"],["江委員啟臣：不會再變了？"],["邱部長國正：對，有一些因為比較……"],["江委員啟臣：因為這個已經更改過交貨的日期了。"],["邱部長國正：但基本上最終交貨時間不會變。"],["江委員啟臣：最終交貨時間不會變？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["江委員啟臣：所以我現在所看到的，不管是F-16V延到2025年第4季，反裝甲飛彈今年開始交運，肩射飛彈這部分延到2025年，甚至M1A2T也是明年才開始交貨，這些不會再變了吧？"],["邱部長國正：不會再變了。"],["江委員啟臣：不會了？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["江委員啟臣：這個我要確認，因為基本上這都是預算沒有問題，而是交貨被延宕的部分。再來，其實如果要講「缺」，我認為國防部要最擔心的是缺人，缺人才是一個大問題。"],["邱部長國正：但是我沒有講到缺人，因為我們持續招募一定要經常做，這沒有缺不缺的問題。"],["江委員啟臣：對，當然，我知道你們也認真在招募，招募也在持續，可是你現在最大的問題就是你的編制員額21.5萬，我講的是志願役的部分，義務役當然很多人關心，明年1月開始義務役恢復成1年役期的徵兵制，但志願役的部分恐怕是你們……我認為這一塊不該被忽略，甚至應該要好好地去檢視跟檢討，因為21.5萬的編制員額，但是現在只有15.5萬，這個幾乎已經逼近七成，就是編現比從過去的八成多，一路掉、掉、掉到現在七成二，這個是一個滿大的危機。就算我們把純軍職的拿出來看，純軍職19.4萬的編制，但現在的員額是15.5萬，也才七成九、79%，也不到八成。更令人擔憂的是，這也是立法院預算中心所提出來的，就是第一線的戰鬥部隊編現比不到八成的問題，第一線的戰鬥部隊大概很難期待用未來1年期的義務役去彌補吧？不太容易。如果原本蔡總統所講的，義務役1年的兵役是以守備部隊為主，並不是第一線的主力戰鬥部隊，你要去彌補現在這個缺額，這個恐怕沒辦法彌補。而且我們現在所採購的這些新式武器，大概也很難用一般的義務役來訓練跟操作，你可能連訓練的時間都不夠，所以我說缺人才是你要面對的問題，到底原因是什麼？為什麼編現比一直掉？然後編現比一直掉就算了，你們現在還調高編制員額，112年開始逐次調整到現在是21.8萬，所以已經不是21.5萬。如果我們用21.8萬來除的時候，你現在的編現比是更低的，明年搞不好不到七成，這是代表要放棄志願役、放棄募兵制嗎？部長，不會調整吧？"],["邱部長國正：不會放棄，不會，因為……"],["江委員啟臣：不會到後來反過來變成是以義務役為主，志願役為輔？"],["邱部長國正：不會，我花一點時間跟委員報告，剛剛講要守備部隊沒有錯，但是我們當初有規劃得很好，有一些服兵役的弟兄有意願到主戰部隊去，他的專長要符合，經過我們測考、評鑑他可以……"],["江委員啟臣：可是他就是1年啊！"],["邱部長國正：沒有錯，所以一到主戰部隊以後，他不見得就投入主戰兵力，因為主戰部隊裡面也有很多戰鬥支援、勤務支援單位，這都可以算在裡面作為主戰部隊。"],["江委員啟臣：對，可是部長你要想，你現在馬上的落差21.8跟15.5，你算一下差多少？差將近6萬。你如果期待明年開始的1年期義務役補到這個數字要補多久？因為明年了不起讓你有個八、九千個1年期義務役回來當兵就已經不錯了，你原本預期是9,700個，但你認為會有9,700個，如你所想嗎？不見得啊！很多因素有可能導致他緩徵，緩徵是有可能的……"],["邱部長國正：會有這種問題，但明年我們查過了……"],["江委員啟臣：對，所以你要馬上彌補，我一直講這個gap，21.8跟現在的15.5，然後你馬上要接裝這些新的武器，這些新的武器不是只有操作這些，還包括維護、維修、後勤各方面，這個是一個大問題，部長，你們想好了沒？"],["邱部長國正：是，我要跟委員報告，這15萬還沒有包含維持員額，加上去裡面大概有十九萬多，我請戰規司跟您說明。"],["李司長世強：您剛剛講的分母就是志願役的人力，您剛剛是用19萬4……"],["江委員啟臣：對啊！我現在講的就是志願役，19萬4。"],["李司長世強：我們現員是15萬5，沒有錯，這中間有個缺口。"],["江委員啟臣：所以中間差了4萬。"],["李司長世強：對，編現比現在大概79.8%。"],["江委員啟臣：所以它基本上還是沒有達到，以往我們都拿8成來看，其實8成也是不夠啦！我要提出來的是，第一個，你用什麼方式留住現在招募來的？第二個，要能夠招募到新的。其實去年你們宣布恢復1年期徵兵的時候，有包括提高義務役的待遇，但我一直認為你們志願役的待遇都沒有提高，也沒有調，當時我也質問過部長，你們說就照行政院的人事相關規定來辦理，但是你們國防部自己有沒有想法？其實你們薪資待遇的誘因不足也是一個大因素，這個比較之下其實是很現實的問題，甚至我們到第一線去，我記得我當召委的時候，排了好幾次的考察，有一個小兵私底下跑到我旁邊跟我講悄悄話，他不敢跟你們講，他說的第一個：委員，我們常常都要待命，都沒辦法放假，沒辦法回去陪小孩、陪家人，那就算了！但是連津貼都沒有增加，也就是說，如果我們用加班費來比較的話，連這個也沒有，不管任何部隊，尤其是在第一線的這種戰備部隊。前陣子，包括現在也一樣，兩岸關係好像也沒有比較緩和，也沒有啦！他們出勤的狀況增加了，但是他的待遇卻沒有提高，他的加給、補給統統沒有增加，這是這一些基層士官兵不敢跟你們講的，可是他們卻偷偷到我耳邊講，甚至有些還直接寫陳情給我。部長，所以薪資待遇是一個問題，當然還有其他相關的配套福利，我知道你們想要蓋好的房舍給他們住，我們都支持，興安專案你們去蓋，我們都支持，可是薪資結構這一部分，你們有要調整嗎？目前的規劃有嗎？"],["鄧司長克雄：跟委員報告，有關薪資待遇的部分，除了他的基本待遇是跟著軍公教衡平的原則，我們依行政院的政策指導，另外我們也……"],["江委員啟臣：行政院的政策指導有要調嗎？沒有嘛！"],["鄧司長克雄：我們明年是調4%。"],["江委員啟臣：那個就是跟著所有的軍公教一起嘛。"],["鄧司長克雄：另外，我們還要依據他部隊的特性跟任務的屬性。"],["江委員啟臣：我知道，這個是原本有戰鬥加給，或者外島加給、特勤加給，對不對？"],["鄧司長克雄：是，會調整各種勤務跟專業加給，我們這個有逐年做滾動式的檢討。"],["江委員啟臣：但是最近也沒有調，我的意思是明年義務役的待遇大幅地調了，但志願役都沒有調，你看到你們的編現比都不緊張嗎？你不緊張，我還真的替你們緊張，為什麼？因為這中間會產生很多的空窗期會銜接不上、會有大問題，所以即便我們的武器來了、新式裝備來了，但是你會發覺怎麼樣？你沒有人力可以去熟悉、去操作，這個是國防上很大的一個問題，因為國防最後還是回到人，我就舉例美國2024年的NDAA，你知道它裡面直接寫軍人加薪，增加安全，增加這個預算總額，NDAA要求為美國軍人加薪5.2%，沒有錯，你說美國是軍事大國，可是他們也是一樣，他到現在還在為職業軍人加薪，所以我今天在這邊特別提出來，之前我也提過了，但我看到你們的編現比之後，覺得令人更加地擔心。","因為主席站起來了，我最後提出一個問題，在美國剛出爐的國防授權法（NDAA）裡面，基本上參眾兩院都已經有基本的一些共識了，這當中也提到了很多關於對臺的部分，有關情報交換、軍事訓練合作等，特別是軍事訓練合作這一塊，他們特別、特別地強調，我想請教一下部長，目前我們主要都還是以陸軍為主，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：地面的。"],["江委員啟臣：以陸軍為主，規模稍微比較大一點的，海、空軍的部分未來有沒有打算？"],["邱部長國正：這是我們現在一直在做的工作。"],["李司長世強：陸海空軍都有。"],["江委員啟臣：陸海空軍都有？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["江委員啟臣：這部分的規模應該會持續加大吧？"],["李司長世強：報告，會持續地把它鞏固下去。"],["江委員啟臣：好，那在NDAA這一次的條文裡面，你們注意看，它特別提到一個部分，我認為是值得注意的，它特別提到要求美國的國防部長，還有他們參謀聯席會議的主席，甚至是情報單位，要deliver一個完整的報告，這個報告是關於什麼？任何可能被共軍怎麼樣？封鎖的可能跟方式，然後因應的這些方案等等，這部分我們自己有沒有做相關的研析跟推演？"],["邱部長國正：有，這就是為什麼我們每一年都有這個備戰計畫，將各種可能的行動全部放在裡面，這也是我們平常部隊演訓的一個依據，一定要放上去的。"],["江委員啟臣：因為這裡面特別提到，identification of warning signs of a potential blockade，就是說對於一個有潛在的封鎖、可能的徵兆，要有辦法identify，我們有辦法嗎？比如我們現在能不能告訴大家，在什麼狀況底下，我們看得出來這可能要對臺灣進行封鎖？"],["邱部長國正：這個就是我們平常在研判的，看到徵候……"],["江委員啟臣：我們自己有沒有這個identification的list？"],["邱部長國正：我們當然有各種備案，但我們……"],["江委員啟臣：當然，有一些不能在這裡講。"],["主席（廖委員婉汝）：對。"],["江委員啟臣：但我要確認你們到底有沒有？"],["主席：有啦！"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，國軍建軍備戰這麼多年……"],["主席：詳細的跟江委員報告一下。"],["邱部長國正：假如沒有的話，那真的是笑話一則啦！"],["江委員啟臣：好，這個問題在於你要如何預防，沒有錯，這是一些警示，可是面對這些警示，你要如何破解、如何預防，讓它不要發生？這部分有沒有相關的準備？"],["邱部長國正：我們每一年……"],["主席：應該也有吧？沙盤推演都有在做。"],["邱部長國正：我們派人私下跟委員報告，好不好？"],["主席：之前考察都有去看，任何警訊都有。"],["江委員啟臣：好，因為這個NDAA裡面特別提出來，所以我在這邊要講的是，當它特別提出來的時候就代表這個恐怕也是未來我們要面對的一個重點，請國防部好好準備，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好的。"],["主席：好，謝謝江委員。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們幾次的考察都瞭解，不敢說國防部其實情資掌控得非常好，但是應該都有在掌控，可是這個自願役的加給一定要提高，不提高，退伍潮會很多，謝謝。","現在我們處理臨時提案，有2個案子，請議事人員宣讀第1案。","一、","鑒於共軍無人機對我外島防務威脅日深，國軍急需無人機反制系統應對威脅，惟今年由經濟部委民間研製之無人機反制系統原型系統，因系統整合失敗，陸軍司令部已予解約。據國防部向立法院送交之報告指出，未來將由工程會、經濟部及國防部等跨部會另成立無人機反制系統專案小組，研議系統規格及採購作法。","中科院本具備研製無人機反制或防禦系統之能力，惟為因應經濟部無人機國家隊之發展，扶植國內無人機反制系統產業，國防部考量外島需求，及國內國防產業技術整合能力，以委託研究方式，檢視國內廠商全系統研製能量，以做為未來建置籌獲參考。","未免失去扶植國內相關產業發展之本意，爰要求國防部未來不得以代理商取代研製之方式，招標無人機反制系統。","提案人：廖婉汝　　陳以信　　吳斯懷　　李德維"],["主席：請問國防部對提案內容有沒有意見？"],["李司長世強：委員，這邊補充說明一下，剛剛還來不及跟委員報告，如果按照委員這樣的臨時動議，就等於完全限制在我國內廠商，這一次的委製案為什麼後來會不成功？就是國內廠商自己沒有辦法整合，每一家又各自堅持自己的部分，它沒有辦法去變成一個team把它整合起來，所以這次的委製案才會失敗，但是我們現在開的限制性招標，是希望它在國內自製的比率越高，我給它的評分、加權就相對越高，用這樣子的方式來扶植我國內的產業，但是又不會去妨礙國外更先進的技術引進我國內。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["李司長世強：所以我們建議修成由經濟部來協助國內產業發展無人機反制系統。"],["主席：我這邊的修正，我原來要改了，「或經濟部」或什麼，沒有關係啦！那個就是照原來的文字，然後「或代理商應與國內合格廠商進行產業合作及項目投資，並落實技術轉移」可以嗎？"],["李司長世強：報告，可以。"],["主席：可以吧？"],["李司長世強：只要我們不要百分之百排除代理商的技術引進，這樣就可以。"],["主席：當然你們絕對沒有辦法，目前來講一定是代理商，我們要求代理商剛剛我講的就是國內設廠，不然就是你要跟我們的國內廠商做產業合作跟技術移轉，經濟部能不能同意？"],["連署長錦漳：遵照辦理。"],["李司長世強：那我們來修。"],["主席：好，你參考……"],["林委員靜儀：等一下，經濟部你們確定我們今天要委託的任何一間廠商要跟你們處理的時候，別人都願意把這個東西技轉給我們？你要確定喔！"],["主席：無人機應該OK啦！軍購的話就很難啦！"],["林委員靜儀：你不要到時候說人家不要技轉，我們就沒有辦法用到這種先進技程喔！"],["連署長錦漳：我跟委員報告，這有兩個路徑，一個就是國內的廠商自行開發，另外一條路徑就是主席講的可以跟代理商合作，這兩個路徑一定要同時進行。"],["主席：到最後一定是合作，只是不能完全買來交給我們就好了。"],["林委員靜儀：剛剛主席講的代理商合作，他還要求說你要有技轉，或者是一定要有相關的代理商要跟我們有怎麼樣的作法，你要不要把文字先聽清楚，確定是怎麼樣的文字。"],["主席：那個文字思考一下，來。"],["連署長錦漳：有……"],["主席：因為我知道完全否決代理商，你們絕對會反對，我也有腹案，參考一下文字修正，就是加註後面那些……"],["連署長錦漳：我建議可以加「爰要求國防部未來除尋求國內製造之外，可請求代理商與國內合格廠商進行產業合作及相互投資並落實技術移轉……」"],["主席：前面國防部那一塊加起來。"],["連署長錦漳：把國產的那一塊加在最前面。"],["主席：可以，前面國防部那一段沒有的，你加。"],["連署長錦漳：就是把國產製的那一塊加進去。"],["何委員志偉：我們可不可以先看一下最新版的更新文字，好不好？這樣我覺得比較妥善。"],["主席：對，那你們修正一下，我們進行第2案，好不好？把握時間。","第2案請議事人員宣讀。","二、","臨時提案","國防部為突破募兵之困境及建立培育文武兼備人才之教育模式，清華大學與國防部多次協調終獲同意成立「國防學士班」計畫，二○一九年招收優秀高中畢業生從軍報國。二○二○年成功大學等頂尖大學也陸續加入，開啟了我國大學募兵新頁。","惟因招生人數不如計畫預期，國防部已發函各大學，審視國防學士班招生狀況，並有學校已規劃明年度停止辦理國防學士班招生。目前正在辦理「國防學士班」的清華、成大、中興三校，均向國防部表達了續辦意願、極力争取。雖國防部今年九月獲同意續辦，卻於十一月又來函勒令停招。","教育部已核定招生、學校亦已宣傳招生，為避免侵害信賴保護原則、培育文武兼備人才及多元募兵之意旨，爰要求國防部針對同意續辦之學校，應繼續辦理國防學士班計畫。","提案人：廖婉汝　　陳以信　　楊瓊瓔　　吳斯懷　　李德維"],["主席：國防部有沒有意見？"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，它這裡有提到9月同意續辦這個部分，其實我們今年在6月7號的時候發函到各學校，有7所學校，其中4所學校表達他們不願意辦了，只剩下中興、成功跟清華他們願意試辦，後來我們整個做完……"],["主席：怎麼跟你報告相反啊？清華、中興跟成功是不要……"],["劉次長沛智：沒有，中興、成功跟清華這3所是要續辦的，後來我們整個檢討之後成效不佳，而且它跟ROTC的重複性很高，它完全可以用ROTC的模式來進入軍中，所以我們有發函給這3所大學，希望能夠去跟他們做一個說明，那中興大學後來也願意配合國防部的政策停止招辦，不辦理了；清華跟成大他們在報紙所刊的那些並不是事實。"],["主席：那副校長講的是假話？"],["劉次長沛智：不是，我在這邊非常負責任跟委員報告，我們所有的紀錄都有非常清楚的紀錄，他們一延再延，就是一直再延到12月底，所有的招生簡章是在12月初到1月才會出來，所以現在根本都還沒有開始招生，它必須要在招生簡章出來，在明年1月20號學測之後才會開始招生，也就是說113年所有的學生並沒有開始招生。我們檢討了這些所有的經過之後，決定113年停招，後續如果還有意願想從軍的都可以循ROTC的模式進入軍中。"],["主席：好，瞭解，那這個提案呢？我如果改成「建議」就好了？"],["劉委員世芳：主席，我可以發言嗎？"],["主席：可以。"],["劉委員世芳：我覺得主席跟一些提案委員的提案其實是相當的積極跟正面，大家都知道開這個國防學士班跟所謂的 ROTC最重要是裡面的教學內容，並不是表示這些所謂的文人大學，就是不是軍事院校的這些文人大學的學校沒有這個意願，更何況我們現在國防部不是只有針對職業軍人或是志願役，未來有很多包括可以到中科院或是可以到理工科系為主的，包括什麼無人機也好或是飛彈等等這些，如果可以從這3、4所學校裡面得到更先進的一些計畫或者是教學方向的話，其實都可行。我們只要在限制招生的條件上面，不要說你要去參加以後一定要當志願役，所以我覺得主席你的提案可不可以只有在最後「應繼續積極溝通辦理國防學士班計畫」，因為我不認為有一些大學副校長講的話是偏頗的，可能在溝通上面出現一些狀況……"],["主席：是。"],["劉委員世芳：主席也非常瞭解這中間的差距，所以我認為第一個，當時包括我們立法院外交及國防委員會都希望國防部可以跟這些所謂的頂尖大學一起來合作，但是合作開辦的科目或是教學的對象其實是可以再多做溝通的，所以不要當成說我們就不辦就好了，我想這樣反而不好，會斷掉我們原來文人，尤其是有基本頂尖科研學校的合作機會。以上。"],["主席：好，我同意劉委員的修正方式，你針對內容修正……"],["羅委員致政：主席……"],["主席：請說。"],["羅委員致政：可以建議啦！就是也結合剛才劉世芳委員的建議，我是建議就改一個字就好了，最後兩句就是「爰要求國防部針對同意續辦之學校，研議繼續辦理國防學士班計畫。」這樣就好了吧？"],["主席：沒錯，我也只改兩個字啦！比較快，因為其實我覺得這是一種管道，ROTC試辦失敗也再辦過，我覺得不要把這個管道封鎖了。"],["劉委員世芳：對、對、對。"],["主席：好不好？研議可以，「要求」改「研議」，可以嗎？國防部。"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員說明，我們正期班的招募成效103%、ROTC 135%、專業軍官班109%，但是整個國防學士班招募的狀況只有33%，扣掉21個退學之後，只剩下22%，整個成本效益跟招募的效果真的是……"],["主席：對不起啦！我是提案，我是留一條路你們未來可以走……"],["劉次長沛智：繼續研議。"],["主席：我沒有要求你們，你們跟它說停辦了，現在沒有要求你明年113年一定要招嘛！但是我是覺得研議，對不對？留一個未來國防學士班的話或許可行嘛！"],["羅委員致政：可以啦！可以啦！"],["主席：我說你們誘因不足嘛！"],["劉次長沛智：是，瞭解。"],["主席：而且那個設計的方式不對啊！國防學士班如果他不想念的時候，連學籍都沒有，他當然不敢報名了啊！因為你們很多人都不適應退伍了，他們怎麼知道我念的國防學士班能不能念得完，對不對？所以我是覺得主要是設計上也有一點機制上的問題，不然的話，教學合作班為什麼理工學院都非常踴躍？雙學位，他們多踴躍啊！對不對？好不好？我是覺得改「研議」，可以嗎？"],["劉次長沛智：報告委員，我們最後提個意見，倒數第二行「爰要求」改成「爰建議」國防部，後面就是……"],["主席：建議、研議都可以啦！"],["劉次長沛智：「應繼續」就是委員所剛剛說的……"],["主席：我也是改這兩個字而已。"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["主席：你們要研議還是建議？研議比較好啦！「應研議繼續」好，OK。"],["羅委員致政：好啦！可以啦！就把「應」改成「研議」兩個字就好了。"],["主席：「應」改成「研議」好了，可以嗎？"],["劉次長沛智：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：各位委員沒有意見吧？好，那第1案呢？我們請議事人員宣讀嗎？"],["何委員志偉：可不可以也拜託讓議事人員把那個新的版本文字提供紙本給我們，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：第1案先唸。"],["何委員志偉：同步提供紙本，好嗎？謝謝！"],["主席：先印紙本，我們就第2案先唸好不好？第1案趕快先印紙本給大家參考。","好，宣讀第2案。","第2案協商結果：爰要求國防部針對同意續辦之學校，研議繼續辦理國防學士班計畫，其餘均照原提案通過。"],["主席：好，第2案各位委員沒有意見吧？國防部沒有意見吧？那我們修正通過，謝謝。","第1案趕快印，分送給大家。"],["何委員志偉：好，第2案沒意見，第1案？"],["主席：好，各位手上拿到第1案，我們請議事人員宣讀。","第1案修正之文字：未免失去扶植國內相關產業發展之本意，爰要求國防部除採購國內自製產品，若採購國外現貨應要求代理商與國內合格廠商進行產業合作及相互投資，並落實技術轉移。其他同原提案通過。另第1段第3行「陸軍司令部已予解約」改為「陸軍司令部已予終止合約」，其他照原提案通過。"],["主席：好，各位委員有沒有意見？"],["連署長錦漳：剛剛無人機反制那個，為了讓它能夠更確實落實，我們建議這樣修正：「爰要求國防部除採購國內產製產品外，如係採購國外貨品，應要求落實在地化組裝或與國內廠商合作。」"],["主席：除國防部採購國內自製產品，要加「國防部」就是了？"],["連署長錦漳：對，因為採購是國防部……"],["林委員靜儀：你前面就有「爰要求國防部」了啊！"],["連署長錦漳：那個本來就國防部的。"],["主席：所以你對哪一個有意見？"],["連署長錦漳：我重新唸一次？「爰要求國防部除採購國內產製產品外，如係採購國外貨品，應要求落實在地化組裝或與國內廠商合作。」"],["林委員靜儀：我覺得這樣比較順，所以文字跟我們現在手上的紙本又不一樣囉？"],["主席：國內「自製」改「產製」對不對？國內產製產品若……"],["林委員靜儀：加一個「外，」。"],["主席：好，再重新唸一次吧？"],["林委員靜儀：你文字有給國防部了嘛！對不對？"],["劉委員世芳：我們這邊文字不是新的喔！我們這邊的文字不是新的。"],["主席：還要再印嗎？"],["羅委員致政：不用了啦，唸一次就夠了。"],["主席：唸一次，大家注意一下！"],["林委員靜儀：署長，你文字有給召委了嘛！"],["連署長錦漳：我剛剛給……"],["主席：給了。來，請議事人員從「爰要求國防部」那裡開始再唸一次。","第1案修正文字：爰要求國防部除採購國內產製產品外，如係採購國外貨品，應要求落實在地化組裝或與國內廠商合作。"],["主席：後面「及相互投資，並落實技術轉移」沒有嗎？"],["連署長錦漳：對啊！就是要落實，跟國內廠商合作有不同方式啊！那個方式，我們不要把它限制住。","跟主席報告一下，因為有一些技術，我們國內如果已經達到一定……如果所採購的是比較先進的，他要向國外採購的話，我們不要給他限制一定的模式，譬如說，他如果可以共同投資，或是技術授權或種種方式，我們把它涵蓋為叫做「與國內廠商合作」。"],["羅委員致政：主席，我覺得經濟部這樣的建議是有必要，因為相互有時候是我們技術比較尖端，你要強迫我們一定要技轉給他，或者反過來講，他要投資我們，因為被他買掉也有可能啊！所以保留一定的彈性，這樣可能會比較好，用一般性的相互合作，這樣就好。"],["劉委員世芳：主席，我來講一下，在臨時提案裡面有寫到工程會，其實工程會它是處理有關政府採購法的部分，所以它是不是會納入所謂的無人機反制系統專案小組，因為它不可能球員兼裁判，所以其實這個工程會放進去是比較奇怪。","第二個是國科會上個禮拜也公布我們臺灣的關鍵基礎設施或是關鍵基礎的部分是要受限的，所以能不能跟國外廠商合作，其實這些有關的限制條件都要放進去，因為我們這邊講的無人機，應該不是指一般的商用，或者是遊戲用的無人機，應該是軍用商規，或是軍用軍規，所以應該有更嚴格的限制，不能就是這樣說，我們可以這樣做那樣做，我是覺得一定要符合臺灣國內的法制基礎，還有符合對國家安全的需求才可以，我認為要加上這樣的限制條件比較合範。"],["主席：所以按照經濟部提的內容嗎？"],["連署長錦漳：那如果說像剛才委員提的話，我們後面就說「要與國內廠商合作，並遵守相關法令規定。」"],["主席：原來你們的那個產業發展條例裡面，就有相關法律規定，我們要求的是要落實。"],["連署長錦漳：剛剛劉委員講的是那個關鍵技術，現在最近……"],["主席：我跟你講，關鍵技術就是那個……我們今天主要要審的國防產業發展條例，你們根本不敢動嘛！因為技轉完全是零啦，很難啦，尤其是軍購的東西，我是覺得經濟部如果這樣寫我們是能接受啦，一定要跟國內廠商合作嘛！不管是我們學他，他學我們都一樣，在地組裝也可以啦！"],["劉委員世芳：把代理商刪掉啦，因為代理商看起來不太像是一個產製的廠商，因為第一段有代理商。"],["連署長錦漳：我是寫採購國外貨品啦！"],["主席：來，請議事人員再唸一次。"],["連署長錦漳：後來改的那一版沒有代理商。"],["主席：經濟部改的這一塊啦。代理商是非常敏感的字眼啦，沒有關係啦，你們要改可以啦，先宣讀一次。","第1案修正文字：爰要求國防部除採購國內產製產品外，如係採購國外貨品，應要求落實在地化組裝或與國內廠商合作。"],["主席：可以嗎？"],["劉委員世芳：「要符合法律的規定」寫在哪裡？"],["主席：我覺得「法律規定」，那個原來就有法律規定了，我們在提案當中也不用寫到什麼法律規定。"],["何委員志偉：主席，我們是不是最後一段乾脆就把它刪掉好不好？"],["主席：哪一段？"],["何委員志偉：就是「未免失去扶植國內產業發展本意……」我覺得整段就不用了嘛！就留第一段跟第二段，我覺得這樣是否……因為裡面還討論到，這一次我們外島無人機的問題，其實不是國防部，也不是中科院，問題出在經濟部啊！你們現在搞這麼久，拖這麼久，那我們當時規格也好，其實技術、技術、技術，其實技術全部都有，那是廠商跟廠商之間不整合，就我們之前開出來的規格不整合，所以也不需要去提到任何國外的技術了，國內就有了，而且國內的技術，也有外銷到國外去，那是因為這一次整合起來，就簡單一點，就廠商跟廠商之間彼此之間的分配上面有問題嘛！所以我這邊建議是否留第一段、留第二段，第三段這邊，我們也不用去討論到國外了，因為這國內技術都夠，問題出在我們的整合啊，經濟部在這件事情上面，其實你的責任是最大的，你自己也清楚。"],["連署長錦漳：我跟委員報告……"],["何委員志偉：你知道整個會期中科院跟國防部都被白罵了，你知道嗎？他們被罵了一整個會期。"],["連署長錦漳：我跟委員報告，我們是推薦4家有能力的廠商到國防部，至於國防部後面怎麼進行採購，那是國防部在主責。"],["主席：那你為什麼現在招標是公開呢？除了那4家之外，其他沒有經過你們推薦也可以來參加招標！"],["何委員志偉：你如果當時候願意推薦他，他就願意可以整合啊！這些東西當時就整合不出來嘛！"],["連署長錦漳：報告委員，有關整合一事，我們本來是推薦四家，並仿照前面無人機，建議個別分開招標……"],["何委員志偉：我必須講我知道大家都很努力，也是為了這個國家好。但這件事情搞太久了，好不好？沒關係，對於臨時提案的文字我請教一下召委，我們是否就留第一段與第二段？第三段感覺好像又開了一個空間出來，因為國內就可以處理了。"],["主席：國內如果可以處理，原型機早就已經造出來了！不然誰能講國內可以做？中科院院長？"],["蔡委員適應：主席，不好意思，我再問一下次長。剛才聽經濟部的說法，原來經濟部推薦給國防部四家，是認為這四家都有能力來完成這樣的要求，是國防部自己要求這四家整合成二個團隊？沒錯？所以國防部沒事為什麼要幹這種事？弄完之後最後弄不出來？原來經濟部的意思是認為這四家都能夠個別做出無人機反制防禦系統，最後由國防部個別評審，你的建議原來是這樣子嗎？"],["連署長錦漳：報告委員，國防部有開規格給我們，由經濟部、國防部、國科會與工程會組成專案小組審查，審查後推薦這四家……"],["蔡委員適應：所以這四家的每一家都是個別廠商都能夠做，而不是這四家一定要整合成一家或兩家，沒有這樣要求吧？"],["連署長錦漳：當時給的建議並沒有要整合。"],["蔡委員適應：那就是國防部的問題了！"],["主席：來，國防部誰要說明？反正兩兩整合就是失敗，現在就是要公開招標！"],["蔡委員適應：主席，剛才經濟部講得很清楚，那四家自己做都可以成功，意思就是這樣，所以不要整合就沒事了！"],["林委員靜儀：什麼原因要求整合？可以說一下嗎？"],["趙主任亞平：因為經濟部的評估，原本這四家廠商沒有一家有完全能力的，所以必須自由組合，而陸軍並沒有要求說要怎麼組合，不論三加一、二加二或一家去整合三家都沒有問題。後來由他們四家自己去配對，也就是兩兩；兩兩裡面誰比較好？就用評選的機制選出來，也就是創未來和創思達這兩家公司為一個單位來承接這個委製案。承接委製案的結果是：他們做不出來！而做不出來是因為甲、乙這兩家廠商……創思達不跟創未來整合，因為他的能力，如雷達方面不願意跟他合作，以致他們兩個合作破局，這段是他們廠商之間的問題，我們希望……"],["蔡委員適應：上次審預算的時候，我們其實有問過這個案子，當時我們有做過一個決議，我記得王定宇委員也在。當時有說你再問一下另外一家有沒有意願要做？部長現場說沒問題，會再問另外一家有沒有意願，後來有沒有問？因為你們現在解約了？"],["趙主任亞平：對。"],["蔡委員適應：你們有沒有問另外一組？你們有沒有去問另外那兩家有沒有意願做？這原來是科研案，對不對？"],["趙主任亞平：是一個委託研究案。"],["蔡委員適應：你們有沒有去問？因為部長現場答應我們，也說不然也鼓勵另外兩家參與，這是部長現場說的，可是一個禮拜後你們就公告案子解約，我也不曉得為什麼？"],["主席：我們就是搞不清楚為什麼？而且現在變成公開招標？其實公開招標可以獲得的話都可以，但這些技術，如果每一家廠商標到的有一些技術 knowhow需要合作，因為兩兩合作都弄不出來的話，我相信當中一定有一些關鍵技術，而且一定要在地組裝！經濟部說要在地組裝或與國內廠商合作，這些我們都沒有意見，至少相輔相成。再說，我們有一些技術移轉內容，不管是兩兩或經濟部推薦的那四家，按照國防部要求的資格是OK的，但是你要叫他們合作生產就是有問題啊，所以才會解約嘛！"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，後續的量產案……"],["主席：就停擺啦！延宕啦！"],["趙主任亞平：我們就沒有綁住要兩兩或是要哪幾家廠商相互合作，也就是開放式的……"],["主席：簡單講，他們就是不合作……"],["趙主任亞平：沒有，但是量產案的話所有廠商都可以來參加……"],["主席：他們不合作也就沒有原型機出來，也沒有辦法量產！"],["趙主任亞平：原本就是選了那四家……"],["主席：對，但是那四家不合作，所以你們現在就開放，已經不是經濟部評審的那四家，全部都可以來……"],["趙主任亞平：對、對。"],["主席：但你覺得優的這四家都做不出來了，還要公開？其實我覺得都沒問題，所以我要拜託各位委員，我提案目的只是希望能採購到，不管用什麼方式，如果覺得代理商這名字不好聽，要取消掉，那沒有關係，但我希望國內廠商引進的國外技術能技轉、能合作、能在地生產就好了，好不好？可不可以這樣子？"],["何委員志偉：主席，我就教一下，第三段要留嗎？還是……"],["主席：都要留！"],["何委員志偉：我的認知是最後真正應該要求的是時間，是時間啦！"],["主席：他們有預算壓力，你說「未免失去扶植國內……」這個要拿掉嗎？"],["何委員志偉：不然就按照大家的共識……"],["主席：對，按照經濟部這個可以吧？"],["羅委員致政：對。主席，我建議，坦白講，我們也沒那麼偉大，通過決議後你們馬上就生得出來！事實上這只是我們立場的表態，要求你們落實相關的……因為顯然國內這條路走不出去了，走不出一條路來，如果用代理商或進口方式也許能夠儘量……並因此協助國內廠商的研發能力。我覺得修改後的文字是主席的核心，應該是可以接受的，不要再刪了。"],["主席：其他委員呢？國防部？"],["何委員志偉：不然就按照原文字，好不好？"],["主席：不是原文字，按照修正過的經濟部文字。國防部？"],["趙主任亞平：沒意見。"],["何委員志偉：國防部不能再拖了！"],["主席：修正通過。休息10分鐘。","休息（11時36分）","繼續開會（11時46分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。接下來請蔡適應委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}}},{"id":"148957","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148957","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029705b4570c9deca22bdc0b11ed89c5ff9c986728e607a03228773759d3bad123a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:41:57 - 10:54:32","影片長度":"00:12:35","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回顧與展望（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【12月11日及13日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-20"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":755,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:54:32+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:41:57+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":575,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時41分）謝謝召委。主席、在場委員先進、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。有請黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委上台備詢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委早。剛剛有委員問到詐騙的問題，我先問幾個問題，治安有沒有改善要看哪三個方面？第一個是犯罪率，第二個是報案率，第三個是破案率，你覺得治安有沒有改善要先看哪一個比率？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我不是犯罪專家，我不太……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是常識嘛，民眾覺得治安有沒有改善，我們要看哪些數字？犯罪率有沒有上升對不對？可是犯罪率是來自什麼？就是民眾有報案，所以警方就有報案率嘛，但是有沒有破案？如果有破案了，那麼歹徒就不敢妄為，所以犯罪率就會下降，是不是這樣子？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有人說過一個笑話，說有人是在解決問題，有人則是在解決提出問題的人。過去我曾經在地方擔任副首長，每個月都要主持治安會報，我都會要求不能只看報案率，因為如果只看報案率，他們解決的是報案的人，就是吃案嘛，對不對？破案率如果沒有提高，民眾還是會覺得治安不好，是不是這樣子？所以我們要改善治安，不只要看報案率，報案率提高不見得是壞事，另外還要看破案率有沒有提高，如果我們一味的要求犯罪率要下降，可能你得到的只是報案率下降而已，主委同不同意？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是有這種可能啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下銀行臨櫃有效阻詐，而且件數成長非常多，這是代表詐騙猖獗還是代表我們防堵有效？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我的觀點覺得我們的銀行防堵上有發揮效益。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但民眾還是感覺到詐騙好像很多。我們來看一下，金融詐騙的境內犯罪率，我們積極破案，就是臨櫃防堵嘛，但是境外有沒有辦法防堵？目前境內犯罪大概都是透過臨櫃就攔下來了，對不對？所以目前的詐騙是不是大部分都境外犯罪？是不是這樣？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我的瞭解是境外來源比較多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以目前我們只在國內的臨櫃阻詐是有幫助，但是我們還要加強對於境外犯罪的防堵，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。那我們來看一下詐騙的問題，上週我問過上海銀行，一萬四千個客戶個資外洩，有查出來是誰做的嗎？路徑找出來了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我請局長說明一下。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，其實他們內部做了很詳盡的查核，目前他們還透過第三方，所以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：透過第三方，好，key word找到了。","主委，我上週才對公股行庫要求要去加強做這些資安敏感職務人員的訓練和考核，根據金融控股公司及銀行業內部控制及稽核制度實施辦法第三十八條之一，有沒有？有！只要是銀行業，不管你是不是公股行庫，你都要設置專責人員，而且要受訓，有沒有？有嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我請你比照我對財政部要求公股行庫的作法，你可不可以要求本國銀行統整出哪些是資安敏感的職務，而且要加強對他們的資安審查跟教育，可不可以？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們可以朝這個方向去努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以你承諾要做這個事情，因為公股行庫已經答應了。"],["黃主任委員天牧：但是敏感職位可能依不同銀行而有差別。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是你們要去統整啊！要提報來審查，好不好？可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們不太方便，是他們會提出來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們提報，你們要求他要做這個事情。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，但是審查我們不太容易從……我們不是經營銀行的人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：至少你可以要求他要落實。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們可以做這件事情。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們可以做這件事情，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要落實對於敏感職務的盤點跟人員的審查和訓練、講習，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，另外我們來看一下，醫指付 app 盜刷，誰該負責？是金管會還是衛福部？還是我們的數發部？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個我後來瞭解，個資部分應該屬於衛福部這邊處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：金管會有沒有責任？有沒有採取行動？"],["黃主任委員天牧：財金公司有要求大洸公司去確認當初是因為委外的關係而產生個資的外洩。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以要聯合各部會，不是推給別人，你可以做的就做，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，我們都同時在做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：醫指付有沒有釐清個資外洩來源跟途徑呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，有喔？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有在查。對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：待查啦！我跟你講，幾個參考，請往下看，其實在我們國家對於關鍵基礎設施的保護，從設施部分有這些法律，如果設施要保護，包括什麼？資通系統，對不對？用這個案子來往下看，其實行政院除了對於硬體之外，對於人員的審查也很重要，行政院有規定要求所有政府採購，對於大陸廠牌的資通安全系統之外，機關還要去要求執行團隊不可以有中國籍的人士，是不是這樣？有沒有看到行政院這個函？這是要求公務採購、政府採購的部分。"],["黃主任委員天牧：有看到大陸廠牌資訊的一些規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你可不可以要求本國銀行也比照辦理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個如果是公股比較可以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：公股的話，因為是財政部的，財政部沒問題。"],["黃主任委員天牧：其他銀行部分，我們要瞭解……"],["鍾委員佳濱：本國銀行，你們要要求，好不好？不是只有所謂的政府採購，本國銀行的資安是連通的，不會分你是公股行庫或不是公股行庫，他只要一個地方攻破，通通都進來了。主委可不可以要求考慮？"],["黃主任委員天牧：局長有沒有什麼想法？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，公銀的部分確實是比照辦理，至於其他……"],["鍾委員佳濱：本國銀行的部分。"],["莊局長琇媛：本國銀行的部分的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：金融網是連通的。"],["莊局長琇媛：對，我們會再研議，因為之前是要將……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們要往這個方向去要求，可以嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：好，是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委承諾？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們先瞭解一下其他非公股銀行使用大陸廠牌資訊產品的情況。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，這是一個起點，請要求它、瞭解它用了多少。"],["黃主任委員天牧：然後再瞭解它怎麼去管控。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，很好，先瞭解它用了哪些、怎麼管控。","再來，有關開放銀行第三階段有這些服務，TSP業者找人開發 app，然後有這麼多的服務，現在的第三方服務要提供損害賠償責任，根據銀行公會會員銀行與第三方服務提供者合作之自律規範第六條第九項規定，第三方應負責損害賠償，對不對？是不是這樣？同不同意？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，依照這個規範是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以第三方也跟銀行一樣，中國的軟硬體在韓國造成了這些敏感個資外洩，華為也在臺灣有類似的情況，所以希望未來對這些 TSP業者也比照我們的政府採購一樣，不只是政府要落實，也請TSP業者參考我們工程會第八條第二十四款，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個就是我剛剛跟您報告的，比方說非公股，我們先盤點這些TSP業者有沒有使用大陸的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，也一樣，第一步先跨出去，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外我們來關心綠色行動3.0，這個3.0的報告當中，你們的核心策略是要揭露碳排資訊，從投融資推動整體產業減碳，是不是這樣子？金管會有在這樣做嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這是其中之一啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，好，我們來看一下銀行在建商端的土建融及消費端購買綠建築的房屋貸款，都有給予比較優惠的條件，有沒有？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個在銀行公會授信審查準則第二十條好像有類似對這種的規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都有嘛！實質抗衡的成效可不可以告訴我，本國銀行在民間綠建築融資的推廣成效如何？核定多少件？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，我們調查之後跟您報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。你們還沒有做調查，我告訴你，這是我從內政部得到的資料，在2022跟2023比較，我們所有的公建、商辦、住宅核發建照數量有這麼多，綠住宅有這些，大概民間的綠建築比例偏低，就是說我們國家在推，但是民間綠建築通過的有2%到3.2%。如果我們把公建跟商辦拿掉只看純住宅，純住宅稍微好一點，但是住宅的綠建築比例也是不高，所以我們來看一下，到底我們金管會提供的綠色行動有沒有幫助市場上的住宅消費者或建商願意來興辦綠建築？您覺得有沒有實際上推動的效果？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我認為是有，但是可能不如您的期待。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，還沒調查出來，有沒有符合我的期待還不知道，我們來看一下，其實我去調查的結果是非都更案通常不會選擇綠建築，為什麼？因為我們注意到在內政部公布的資料當中，如果你是都更案就有綠建築的容積率獎勵，因為容積率獎勵之後，它的利潤大於綠建築增加的成本，所以幾乎我們看到的營建案，內政部的資料通通集中在都更案，他們才會去做綠建築，但是如果是非都更案呢？沒有！所以我也注意到，你回去查一查本國銀行去推動的綠建築融資有沒有非都更案？回去查一查再跟我報告。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我認為，我查的是沒有啦！所以問題在哪裡？今天綠建築的推動屬於容積獎勵的有效，但是如果是屬於你們要提出融資優惠的，好像沒有讓建商改變它的想法。我們往下看，因為我們目前的都更案，大部分的建商是因為獎勵容積選擇綠建築，而不是融資優惠，因為我們目前提供的融資優惠小於綠建築增加的營建成本，建商沒有意願。所以我可以先做這樣的定論，目前的綠色建築行動方案的融資優惠其實吸引不了建商去做綠建築，你再回去看看有沒有什麼資料可以反證我的話。","接下來我的結論就出來了，根據銀級綠建築的案例，內政部建築研究所的評析，銀級綠建築大概每平方公尺增加600元至900元的成本，樓地板面積如果是以1萬3,000米來講，營建成本大概是780萬。我舉這個例子，事實上目前我們建融動撥的方式、土融放款金額要達到讓建商覺得它要來做綠建築，你的土建融要調降0.8%，反而非都更建案所減少的土建融利息支出才會小於它去做綠建築增加的成本。簡單講，結論來了，金管會可不可以擬具體方案來積極推廣綠建築？包含目前你們對投融資的獎勵，去調查一下，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：可以，我們照這個方向去努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，其他三個我很快講一遍，請金管會統整出敏感職務加強資安審查及教育，OK？"],["黃主任委員天牧：就是我剛剛跟您報告的方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，國銀及所屬合作券商和保險公司、其執行團隊成員只要是非本國籍或同時擁有其他國籍人士，以及資通訊產品皆應加強資安及背景審查，是不是往這方向去努力？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，因為有其他國籍，不要讓其他國籍……"],["鍾委員佳濱：瞭解，我沒有禁止，我要你們去加強進行瞭解跟審查。"],["黃主任委員天牧：就是不要歧視……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們沒有歧視，只要求你去掌握，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們就是用事實為基礎去瞭解……"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，金管會要求開放銀行TSP業者之資通訊軟體、硬體或服務，也應該要求他的執行團隊不得為中國籍人士，而且不得使用來自中國的資通訊產品。"],["黃主任委員天牧：跟您報告，我們先瞭解它的產品跟人的背景……"],["鍾委員佳濱：在多久內提出來送到本委員會？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這樣可能時間長一點，三個月，可以嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，同意，就請召委這邊來要求，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝委員指導。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝主委、謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員，我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時54分）","繼續開會（11時1分）"],["主席：我們要繼續開會了，現在請媒體跟與會成員，大家回座。","接下來，我們請高嘉瑜高委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 二、審查本院民進\n黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00004"}}},{"id":"148956","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148956","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a7202927afa82c1c90606f92351fad24fff329c986728e607a0322c5814b0a7dced5285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖婉汝","委員發言時間":"10:34:53 - 10:50:56","影片長度":"00:16:03","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":963,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:50:56+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:34:53+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":504,"blocks":[["廖委員婉汝：（10時34分）謝謝主席，我請一下邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["廖委員婉汝：還有國防學士班跟ROTC這個單位。"],["邱部長國正：召委早，是。"],["廖委員婉汝：部長辛苦了！部長，我今天排這個議題真的是想瞭解一下，因為12月5號在聯合報有清華大學副校長的投書。我是覺得很奇怪，，當我們在審預算的時候，國防部跟我們講整個國防學士班招收不到學生，所以113年停辦；可是這個投書當中說，在整個國防學士班當中，學校裡面的學生其實是滿有意願的。當然你們的解釋是說，當初清華大學校長非常極力在招募、說服大家，讓學生能夠多參與，但是後來好像成效不彰。你們的統計數字我看一看，你們訂的標準都是10位、10位、10位等等，我覺得它的錄取率、達到的成效應該也是33%。但是依這位副校長的投書，他覺得還是有一些學校跟學生願意來參與國防學士班，要跟你們協調所以約了幾次，結果國防部的人都沒有答應，甚至於約好了也沒有同意跟他們說明，事後你們只發新聞說沒有獲得學校同意安排，到底誤差在哪裡我不曉得。我在等一下的提案當中有提到，如果今年9月已經承諾這個了，學校已經在招募了，而且有招到學生的時候，你們是不是要停辦？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，其實他們肯定有誤會，因為事實上我兩年多前到國防部以後，他有跟我提到班隊，我第一個問題是這個成效怎麼樣？他就列了表給我。到目前的整個數據，我跟委員報告，譬如我們期望獲得兩百多人，但後來招到的學生大概有67人，67人當中還有21個人不來參加了，所以這幾年真正累計出來以後，要兩百多人只有招到四十多人，而且最近這兩年幾乎很多學校都掛零，清華大學比較好一點，108年一開頭的時候，目標10位學生，它招了9位，這還不錯……"],["廖委員婉汝：我瞭解，在整個預算審查當中其實國防部都有說明，部長，我不是打斷你的意思。"],["邱部長國正：對，我們有說得很清楚。"],["廖委員婉汝：但是我現在想瞭解的是，國防學士班跟ROTC的話，請問一下，112年度ROTC招募的學生數是481位，那……"],["邱部長國正：這個我也要跟委員報告，它跟ROTC幾乎是概等的，服役的年限也一樣，給他的津貼也……"],["廖委員婉汝：對，所以我們那時候審查預算也希望如果不行，其實有意願的可以轉到ROTC。"],["邱部長國正：對，我們也希望這樣子。"],["廖委員婉汝：我想請教一下，資源司跟我回答，ROTC的學生來源大致都是哪些學校？因為國防學士班你定位的當然清華、成功、中興大學就不招了嘛！但是中央、中山、政治、臺灣跟臺北大學等等，這些學校為主是國防學士班，ROTC的學生到底來源是哪些學校？有沒有歸納過？有481位！"],["邱部長國正：ROTC是所有大學的學生都可以報名的。"],["廖委員婉汝：都可以？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["廖委員婉汝：教育部知不知道所有大學是哪些大學？"],["邱部長國正：我可以列舉出來的，不管是清華、政大、臺大、成功、中央、中興、中山都包含在裡面。"],["廖委員婉汝：國防學士班都有這些學校的學生？"],["邱部長國正：對……"],["廖委員婉汝：你把ROTC的學校數、學生數提供給本席參考。"],["邱部長國正：好，可以。ROTC的學校更廣。"],["廖委員婉汝：我不是說一定要綁國防學士班，因為ROTC曾經失敗過，重新再來，所以我希望國防部更專精。如果國防學士班是比較有研發程度的，國防部需要的人能不能這樣切割？我不瞭解。ROTC畢竟是軍事訓練而已，類似未來的軍官班，所以我覺得國防部應該還是要把它區隔。尤其未來的戰爭就是科技戰，在科技戰當中，不論發展無人機或 AI等等，有沒有需要在這些學校當中尋找國防人才？為什麼他們不要參加呢？不是只有學校校長推的動力而已，而是有沒有給他更好的誘因，對不對？因為實際上我看你們預期的補助或各方面都一樣，只是國防學士班的話……"],["邱部長國正：對，都一樣，都跟ROTC一樣。"],["廖委員婉汝：所有的預算、經費都一樣，若沒有繼續修習，可能學籍就沒有了，所以大家不敢去參加國防學士班，對不對？如果參加ROTC，退訓之後只是沒有當軍官的資格，但還是可以再繼續念書，所以可能有一些差別足以影響。我不是在為誰講話，而是覺得你們是不是該確定人力需求？或者在未來的需求人力當中，是不是有更優越的誘因讓他們留下來？如果國防學士班念了之後退訓，卻連學籍都沒有，當然他們就連報都不報了，所以我覺得這個要檢討一下。如果9月已經承諾人家要報，學生也說要報，現在又勸學生不要來報，這個對你們的立場來說好像也很奇怪。如果已經有學生要報，能不能繼續？"],["邱部長國正：不，他已經在那邊就讀，我們一樣，他這個後面……"],["廖委員婉汝：就讀的當然就讀。我是指113學年度……"],["邱部長國正：我們準備要停止了，因為要報的話，我們從這幾年的成績已經看到都掛零，要不就是來了幾個。我覺得這個投資，如果真要有意願，ROTC隨時歡迎他們，一樣的待遇、一樣的條件，服役的期限也一樣，一定要再搞一個學士班的話，我們要投注另外的人力跟財力。"],["廖委員婉汝：部長的意思是國防學士班其實沒有必要，試辦之後失敗？"],["邱部長國正：當初我們一直在評估是什麼原因，一開頭學校認為這樣對我們很有幫助，但是後來從這幾年的結果就可以看到……"],["廖委員婉汝：我覺得有時候內部在學術上還是要檢討一下，像你們跟國防大學理工學院及陽明交大的產學合作班就做得很好。當然就是像剛剛講的3+1，教育部會幫他開學分，但是以這個來講，就近可以合作。我們剛剛講的國防大學這幾個學校有時候因為距離的關係，學生要修習學分很難解決交通的問題，不過陽明交通大學跟國防大學因為可以得到雙學位，所以有加成的效果，因此有種種因素。我們需要什麼樣的國防人才，未來在產業發展當中，有必要的是不是也可以協助？如果可以保留，你們應該提供更好的誘因給他們，讓他們願意來參與，變成國軍重要的人力來源。這是我的想法。我覺得國防部還是仔細思考一下，雙學位他們都可以，但是為什麼其他大學會失敗？當然是修學分的關係，可能影響拿學位的關係，也有可能是如果能夠得到雙學位，例如清華大學願意提供雙學位或者是我們提供更好的職務給他，或許他也願意來參與，只是我覺得應該就幾個方向去檢討。我相信你們知道ROTC過去失敗的原因，而你們現在是有就好了嗎？因為過去也失敗過，所以停招，停招之後才恢復，現在人力缺乏，你就覺得還好，願意來ROTC就來？"],["邱部長國正：當初ROTC不是失敗，因為當初有很多班，還有預官，所以它的來源很充分，就停了……"],["廖委員婉汝：現在來源不充分，所以ROTC就可以了？"],["邱部長國正：後來也有很多提議，ROTC還是可以造就出一些專業人員，譬如部隊裡面有一些ROTC現在位階也不低，升到將軍也都有，所以代表它是可以發展的。"],["廖委員婉汝：國外也很多，希望我們國內也有成就ROTC的……"],["邱部長國正：剛剛委員講到有一點很重要，的確要有誘因，譬如理工學院為什麼跟一般大學可以合作？雙學位拿到了，讓很多人都有意願。"],["廖委員婉汝：沒錯。"],["邱部長國正：我們看了目前國防學士班的數據，我也請他們提供數據給委員看一看。這幾年來要的不多，只有十個，可是到的更少，有的一個，有的掛零。"],["廖委員婉汝：我說要檢討就是因為沒有誘因，尤其國防學士班，如果沒有參加，他就陷入沒有學籍、連學校都不能唸的情況，當然沒有誘因，所以我覺得要檢討。"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["廖委員婉汝：因為我們需要這些學校科系的人力配合國防部發展國防產業，我覺得應該再修正一下，給他更好的誘因。就像我剛剛講的，有雙學位、交通方便，讓他能夠犧牲晚上的時間去上課，寧願拿到雙學位，對這些國防大學理工學院的學生就非常樂意，學校也願意來配合。","最後，我想請教一個問題，也是配合今天產業發展條例的修正案。那天我們在參訪當中，何召委有提到未來無人機的推動，經濟部今天也有來，我們的無人機推動有無人機國家隊。部長請回，休息一下，沒關係。為什麼經濟部會提出在無人機國家隊當中，由四家廠商兩兩來合作研發，結果測試不過之後，反制無人機的生產就停辦了？現在變成不管你有沒有參加無人機國家隊都可以來招標，沒有參加驗證的廠商也可以來招標。"],["連署長錦漳：這個可能要請國防部來回答，因為當時做的不是這樣。"],["廖委員婉汝：整個制度大亂了！"],["連署長錦漳：這個要請國防部來回答。"],["廖委員婉汝：我先問你為什麼找四家來合作？有好幾家，你們評審推薦四家嘛！"],["連署長錦漳：當時是推薦四家給國防部……"],["廖委員婉汝：兩家、兩家合作研發。"],["連署長錦漳：後來決定兩家合作是國防部來主導的。"],["廖委員婉汝：不是兩家，是四家裡面兩家、兩家各自。"],["連署長錦漳：對，有四家，最後由兩家來共同研發，這個是國防部後來決定的。請國防部來說明。"],["廖委員婉汝：後來研究為什麼失敗？你們為什麼要推這四家？這四家是不錯的廠商嗎？"],["連署長錦漳：那四家是對外公開徵選出來，有一定的程序。"],["廖委員婉汝：是你們徵選，還是國防部徵選？"],["連署長錦漳：由經濟部、國防部、國科會及工程會共同……"],["廖委員婉汝：四個單位。"],["連署長錦漳：組成一個審議委員會決定出來，然後推薦給國防部。"],["廖委員婉汝：請參謀長回答，兩家、兩家研發，結果研發失敗之後，現在為什麼沒有參加過驗證的廠商都可以來招標？"],["陳參謀長建義：委員指的是？"],["廖委員婉汝：兩家、兩家研發失敗之後沒有成效，現在變成沒有驗證過的廠商也可以，因為急迫需要這些反制無人機。我們現在是公開招標嘛？"],["陳參謀長建義：委員指的是明年、後年的26套？"],["廖委員婉汝：對。你們原型機不是兩……"],["趙主任亞平：委員好，我是國防採購室主任。因為之前無人機研發採用限制性招標，所以原則上就是經濟部評選出合格廠商，我們從合格廠商裡面遴選廠商來開發，但是量產案不符合政府採購法。"],["廖委員婉汝：它沒有經過測試通過嘛！"],["趙主任亞平：對，所以……"],["廖委員婉汝：為什麼沒有測試？這兩家、兩家當中怎麼會把它的knowhow跟你講呢？叫兩家合作，它們兩個還是……"],["趙主任亞平：後續的量產案跟原型機開發是獨立的兩回事，不能混為一談。"],["廖委員婉汝：所以那兩個是鬧著玩的就是了？測試沒過沒關係，現在是沒有驗證過的廠商都可以參與公開招標。"],["趙主任亞平：對，所有廠商……"],["廖委員婉汝：我們前面那兩段是要幹嘛？四家來幹嘛？"],["趙主任亞平：因為當時這個就是說……"],["廖委員婉汝：來玩一玩而已啊？不然呢？"],["趙主任亞平：不是！因為原型機的量產……"],["廖委員婉汝：經濟部評估四家就是希望得到他們的技術嘛！"],["趙主任亞平：對。"],["廖委員婉汝：然後合作，依國防部的需求來量產，讓原型機可以生產出來，未來量產。問題是這4家變成2家……"],["趙主任亞平：它做不出來，它沒辦法。"],["廖委員婉汝：兩兩相研究當中，沒有辦法測試完成，所以變成這個測試是失敗的、這個案子是失敗的。"],["趙主任亞平：對，因為它整合能力不夠，它做不出來。"],["廖委員婉汝：每一家公司會跟你整合嗎？你想想也是。我現在質疑的地方就是，當4家變2家，各研發測評沒有過、測試沒有過的情況之下，現在你們要怎麼完成未來的量產？"],["趙主任亞平：後來的量產，我們是用公開招標、最有利標的方式……"],["廖委員婉汝：所以沒有經過你們驗證過的……驗證過的是4家來研發嘛。"],["趙主任亞平：這跟之前那個原型機驗證是無關的。"],["廖委員婉汝：我瞭解，4家至少挑選過，現在你要招標測試，沒有經驗的統統過來參與招標嘛。"],["趙主任亞平：是，但是我們用選擇性招標，所以它還是有初步的選擇合作廠商。"],["廖委員婉汝：兩兩研究都研究不出原型機了，你現在開放的話，唯一的就是代理商進來嘛！代理商進來、你公開招標我都沒有意見，代理商進來，根據我們的產業發展條例，在國內設廠或者是技術移轉，可以嗎？"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，我們樂觀其成，我們樂觀國內產業自主發展。"],["廖委員婉汝：不是樂觀，我就寫決議，謝謝。"],["趙主任亞平：但是要不要代理商的話，因為這是獲得……"],["廖委員婉汝：兩兩研究，原型機都研究不出來，你現在公開招標，哪一個做得出來？"],["趙主任亞平：我們也希望是國內自主。"],["廖委員婉汝：就是代理商進來買現成的給你嘛！我要求的是可以、有必要性，一個原則：在國內設廠，不然就是技術移轉，好不好？"],["趙主任亞平：是，我們樂觀其成。"],["廖委員婉汝：不要樂觀其成，一定要做到！不是樂觀其成。我決議做好的時候，就按照那個決議辦理。"],["趙主任亞平：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員。","接下來請江啟臣江委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}}},{"id":"148955","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148955","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029fc21f7df99e6ea6ebdc0b11ed89c5ff9c986728e607a0322bc8fad7574f95d0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"費鴻泰","委員發言時間":"10:29:36 - 10:41:43","影片長度":"00:12:07","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回顧與展望（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【12月11日及13日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-20"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":727,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:41:43+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:29:36+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":512,"blocks":[["費委員鴻泰：（10時29分）好，謝謝主席。各位女士、先生，大家早安。主席，幫我請一下黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委上台備詢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：召委早。"],["費委員鴻泰：主委早。今天主席安排的這個題目，我想在這個會期快結束的時候來檢討一下是蠻好的，請問現在純網銀的這3家，目前都很認真、努力的要增資，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是、是。"],["費委員鴻泰：那我想請教一下，純網銀可以做的業務跟一般實體銀行可以做的業務，有什麼樣很明確的是純網銀可以做的，一般銀行不可以做？"],["黃主任委員天牧：大體來講，就是把實體銀行的業務儘量在網路上都能做，但是純網銀當初自稱他的利基是有一個生態系，可以做一些生態系的synergy發揮。"],["費委員鴻泰：換句話說，一般銀行如果要去做純網銀的業務也是可以的，是不是這個意思？"],["黃主任委員天牧：業務相同，只是一個虛擬，一個實體，當然實體銀行也有虛擬業務。"],["費委員鴻泰：實體銀行當然有虛擬業務，因為現在是網路的世界，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：純網保今年，至少今年好像沒有業者要申設的吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，因為去年我們說要再觀察，去年因為防疫險的關係，所以市場受到影響，我們準備明年1月底會跟大家報告。"],["費委員鴻泰：其實你們要推動純網銀、純網保，憑良心講，就是用虛擬的網路世界服務我們的客戶，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：這個想法基本上是對的，而且日後的發展傾向也都是如此，但是因為現在這3家純網銀或日後可能申請的純網保在推動上有一些困難，我們不能說它不好，因為這都需要時間，自古都說十年有成、二十年有成，所以我們不可能要求他短短二、三年就馬上很厲害，但是在這個過渡時期，我想請教主委，可不可以也讓實體銀行、實體保險公司去做一些網路上的銷售跟服務呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，你垂詢的也是我們正在努力的，尤其是保險，這兩年疫情期間，我們開放的一些措施，在疫情之後全部都會維持，還有今年10月我們開放保險業跟異業合作，就是朝您的方向去做的。"],["費委員鴻泰：我長期在這裡，常常都詢問你們，我是希望網路服務無遠弗屆，網路的服務很好，不要出錯，但是因為現在網路銀行跟網保還在演變蛻化之中，這個時候如果不讓實體銀行去做，而給他們一些限制，我覺得是有點可惜啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，我完全同意你的意見，我可以說明，像……"],["費委員鴻泰：所以……"],["黃主任委員天牧：請指導，請指導。"],["費委員鴻泰：請講，請講。"],["黃主任委員天牧：像我們今年特別有一個金融科技法規調適平台，其實很多意見都是針對銀行，他們也說了，到底在網路上做這種銀行業務還有哪些法規障礙，這些我們都要幫大家解決。"],["費委員鴻泰：對，我是覺得我們open mind，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：不自我設限，不管實體銀行、網路銀行，不管實體保險公司跟純網保，目的都是要服務客戶，讓國家在這方面能夠進步，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：尤其我們臺灣資源有限、空間有限，當然在各種科技上，我們要走在世界的前面，對不對？這樣我們才有競爭力，所以我是覺得思考一下，也麻煩針對我今天的問題，儘快給我一個書面的回答，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，我們會照委員的意見。"],["費委員鴻泰：我們沒有說對誰好或對誰不好，主要的目的就是要對人民好，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：我上個禮拜請教你關於臺灣在全球前百大銀行，我們沒有嘛，對不對？而且我上個禮拜也請教你有關我們的金融保險業在GDP的貢獻，這十多年來是成長有限，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：我們相較於香港，保險金融業占他們的GDP都超過百分之二十幾，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：新加坡也大概占13%、14%，我們臺灣大概是多少？"],["黃主任委員天牧：大概7%左右吧！"],["費委員鴻泰：百分之六點多嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["費委員鴻泰：希望能夠朝著7%一步一步來邁進。現在就是觀念上到底我們是監管比較重要，還是興利比較重要？或者是我們可以把監管做得很好，興利也可以做得很好？有沒有這樣的可能？"],["黃主任委員天牧：大家對於金管會的指導通常好像都是說我們管得比較多，興利比較少，其實我們真的也有做一些興利的工作，不過如果外界有這種印象，我們會加強努力多做一些興利的工作。"],["費委員鴻泰：金管會都是專業人士，我們的銀行在服務國際方面，相對於香港、新加坡，我們就針對這兩個地區好了，憑良心講，他們可以服務的對象是比較寬廣的，至少在幣值上、在貨幣上，相對於香港和新加坡，我們在處理其他貨幣的服務上是需要來努力的，你同意吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，因為我們不像全球性的銀行有全球網路，大的企業需要全球服務的話，我們的銀行是比較沒有占到便宜的。"],["費委員鴻泰：還有一樣就是我們的觀念加上我們的人才，你要服務國際的話，你的英語能力要強，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：像香港很多人都是從小接受英文教育，而新加坡基本上溝通的語言就是英文。蔡英文總統上任以後，要開放外籍人士可以來臺灣金融就業，其實這個觀念是對的，我也很支持，當時我也沒有反對，請問這個政策落實的情況怎麼樣？"],["黃主任委員天牧：國發會有一個金卡的制度，其中有很多也是金融業。"],["費委員鴻泰：好久沒有聽到金卡的業績報告了。"],["黃主任委員天牧：數字我現在……"],["費委員鴻泰：我覺得在金融業這方面真的需要加強。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：我剛才講過，像我們的銀行保險占GDP的比率是6.5%上下，一直在那邊pending，如果我們可以增加到10%，GDP的1%是多少錢你知道嗎？我們去年是22兆，GDP的1%就增加很多耶！如果增加GDP的5%就是增加一兆多，可以創造多少的就業？可以讓整個國民的GDP提升多少？其實對金管會來講，我覺得這一點滿重要的，不要小看自己，上個禮拜和今天我同樣都是針對這個問題，只要我們在GDP上面的產值增加1%，你就知道對臺灣的貢獻有多大。憑良心講，對於金管會同仁的專業我都非常肯定，剩下就是你們要去遊說我們的政府，看看政策方面如何把它想得宏觀一點、想得前衛一點。在人才的落實方面，像金卡，當時蔡總統剛上任的時候，我覺得這是對的，但是我聽到這幾年的績效實在是有限，我們光看這些數字就可以解釋很多，我們的銀行加保險主要是這樣，還有證券這一方面，這十五年來我們的成長實在是有限。當然我希望你以後還可以再繼續做個十年、八年，但是在你還有半年的任期裡面，請思考一下我們金融業的今日和未來，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，謝謝委員的期許，我會在剩下的任期中去思考這個，而且儘量有一些政策能夠落實，謝謝。"],["費委員鴻泰：還有虛擬貨幣的問題今天也有很多委員都提到了，網路的世界無遠弗屆，你我的年齡不是在網路發達的時候成長，可是現在的年輕人都是在網路時代成長的，針對虛擬貨幣我們著重的是不要去洗錢，可是它還有其他的，這是壞處，但是好處也有很多，而且在未來的世界畢竟會扮演一個重要的角色，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：所以我覺得我們應該要往前看，該制定的法令就要去制定，該合作的東西就要去合作，像美國和日本的虛擬貨幣ETF都在設計、都要準備通過了，在這同時，其實臺灣不要只怕壞的那方面，憑良心講，監理適度放寬一點點，也許那個產業就有明天、有未來，對人民而言是方便的，是或不是？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員這番指導和期許，我們會引為現在開始努力的方向。"],["費委員鴻泰：麻煩主席再給我30秒，我今天提了純網銀、純網保，這和實體要去思考一下，不要故步自封。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：我們的金融業，GDP日後要如何成長，這個要去思考；虛擬貨幣的未來是什麼，這個也要去思考，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，這幾點我們會好好努力去推動，謝謝。"],["費委員鴻泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。剛剛本來有宣告要休息，因為鍾委員有提出要求，所以我們等鍾委員質詢結束之後再休息。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 二、審查本院民進\n黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00004"}}},{"id":"148954","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148954","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029455fc3158afed93292351fad24fff329c986728e607a032204e63636352635c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳斯懷","委員發言時間":"10:24:48 - 10:34:23","影片長度":"00:09:35","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":575,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:34:23+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:24:48+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":479,"blocks":[["吳委員斯懷：（10時24分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長國正：委員好。"],["吳委員斯懷：部長好。首先我想問一個媒體關注還有民眾關注的議題，就是國防部的軍營安全條例現在準備二讀了，我在一讀之前跟法制司相關的同仁也交換過意見，提出很多具體的地方，必須在二讀、三讀之前讓民眾能夠釋疑，因為這個條例如果你把它寫得這麼死的話，將來營區的界定……，因為現在無人機加上各種電訊偵測的器材發展得非常快速。營區安全我100%支持，必須要強化，否則我們軍隊沒有機密可言，包含演習、包含訓練，但是你這個條例訂定的規定要考慮到實際可不可以執行。現在媒體跟軍事迷，還有一般住在營區周圍的群眾、民眾有疑慮。現在的現況是，譬如說我們最清楚的花蓮機場，軍事迷就在跑道旁邊的咖啡廳，2樓是最佳景點，我都去過兩次，就看著飛機起降，大家在那邊拍照，每一個機場都有，每一個港口都有。對於這些內容的界定，現在條例裡規定的是，包含演習、包含訓場，只要軍事迷、媒體或者民眾拍照或用其他方式，不管是無人機等等拍的照，一旦在他的社群媒體披露就可能涉法，涉法的刑期判得很重。這一部分國防部有沒有在二讀之前暫緩一下，先跟民眾釋疑，甚至開個公聽會聽聽媒體代表、群眾代表的看法，交換點意見？這樣才能讓一個法令通過以後，執行上確實無礙。部長的看法？"],["邱部長國正：報告委員，您講得很有道理，大家會很擔憂你規定那麼嚴格，動輒得咎。事實上，很多地方我們的母法定了以後會有很多子法，子法就不光是國防部來訂定，也有其他部會，所以我們對外的講法是就算三讀通過以後也不是馬上施行，因為行政院會要求其他各部會針對這個母法相關的子法研議，等到都很周延了才會推動。目前我們也知道外面民眾所關切的，誠如委員剛剛所講的，好像變成太嚴苛了，我們動輒法辦，不會的！事實上，有很多地方我們要讓我們推動工作於法有據，我跟委員報告一下，像以前營區裡面有人闖進去了，我們請警察幫忙，警察來會說我是依據什麼？然後就說如果沒有營區的這種規範的話，他只能以闖入民宅的方法來辦。最起碼這個法定了以後，對我們執行法的單位，不光是軍方，連同憲、警等等，他們是於法有據，在於法有據執行當中如果有任何不周延的地方，到時候在法庭他們自然會去做說明、講解，不會變成只要軍中的界線一劃，這個就變成不可侵犯，不會這樣子的。"],["吳委員斯懷：好，我想部長剛才舉的幾個案例，包含營區內部的安全維護，本席是絕對支持的，否則闖入營區沒有任何處置的法源依據，我們國軍還叫國軍嗎？但是演訓場所的界定，我希望你們找時間或者透過媒體讓群眾釋疑，連拍照都不敢拍的那些軍事迷，天天都在九鵬基地附近山頭上架著大砲，你拍了就犯法，你只要敢貼出來就判刑，像這些演習區域的界定、訓練場地的界定，民眾不見得瞭解。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["吳委員斯懷：我希望在這幾個部分多做一點更細緻的說明。"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["吳委員斯懷：包含你未來執法可能會做到什麼程度？否則你這個法案通過後引起很多爭議，不是給你們徒增困擾嗎？是不是？"],["邱部長國正：是，瞭解。"],["吳委員斯懷：好，接著我再問最近媒體報導，美國空軍有位上尉軍官來臺灣住了幾個月寫出一大堆文章，不知道是依據什麼寫出來的結論，他的結論是臺灣受中國入侵有70%的人會留下來抵抗，20%的人會離開臺灣，10%的人會投降。他的位階不過是一位現役的上尉軍官，我想問問看，他來臺灣受兩個半月的專業訓練，是誰訓練他？是不是國防部邀請來的？美國奉行的是軍人不能干政啊！這位現役上尉來我們國家指指點點，還做出一些結論，我非常不認同這些，他依據什麼做出來的？部長知不知道這件事？說明一下。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我剛剛聽委員這樣講，第一個問題是誰邀請這位美軍上尉來臺？這個我還真不知道我們哪個單位去邀請，最起碼國防部沒有邀請嘛！剛剛說他有發表這些言論或什麼，我曾經對大家講得很清楚，有很多學者專家個人有什麼意見的表達，我不會去跟他爭辯，因為他有他立論的基礎。同樣的，當然委員關心的也沒有錯，他是一位美軍上尉，發表的原意為何？我還真的不太瞭解。這聯二有掌握嗎？"],["吳委員斯懷：沒掌握！我希望你們去瞭解一下，他提出這個說法，雖然他位階不高，是現役上尉，但是在美國空軍部部長辦公室任職，他是受哪些特定人士、特定團體請來做大內宣，表示我們臺灣人如何、如何？一位上尉有多大的閱歷跟經驗，在臺灣住兩個月就可以發表這種言論，本席深深不以為然。我想他跟國軍有關，希望部長有空去瞭解一下來龍去脈及背景，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好，我跟委員報告，我們去瞭解好不好？因為事實上國防部沒有邀約這些人，就算來的話，一定是針對議題來討論，他不會擅自對外發布任何訊息。"],["吳委員斯懷：重點是他來臺灣受兩個半月的專業訓練，誰請他來？他受了什麼訓練？這些我們覺得很詫異，媒體登了好幾次了，我就覺得一直想問你們，今天好不容易等到部長來，你們去瞭解一下，回頭給本席一份稍微完整一點的資料，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：我初步跟委員報告，國防部沒有辦什麼班隊請這些外面的來……"],["吳委員斯懷：我相信你們沒有，不然我不可能不知道，但是誰請他來的？寫得言之鑿鑿，受兩個半月專業訓練得出的結論是臺灣沒問題，我們都會抵抗。你是誰啊？你代表中華民國政府、代表國防部？這個東西請你們給我一個具體的說明。"],["邱部長國正：好，是，我瞭解。"],["吳委員斯懷：另外，美國國防部的中國軍力報告裡面寫到很多，譬如這幾年共機擾臺、網路戰都有增加很多比例的趨勢，但是他們其中最重要的幾個點，我建議你們聯二把這個重要的內容摘錄給部長參閱。其中有幾個我們比較關注的，美國國防部自己都承認，對於共軍的情報掌握沒有辦法做到很精確，有很多盲點它自己都承認，這一點很少見；美國對中國大陸的軍力報告很少自己在正式文件上說，我們對中國解放軍的情報掌握不足、能力不足，有很多盲點，沒辦法全面掌控。你沒辦法全面掌控怎麼做出情報判斷的結論，據以提供參三列舉行動方案？這個我們老軍人都很清楚，如果你情報判斷基礎不準，據以擬定你的國安政策、臺灣的兩岸政策會不會偏失？所以我覺得部長稍微關注一下這個議題，讓我們大家能夠更精準地掌握，美國究竟對解放軍瞭解的程度是什麼？好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好，這是我們應該要做的。"],["吳委員斯懷：好，謝謝部長！"],["邱部長國正：是，謝謝委員！"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。目前收到臨時提案有兩個案子，等江啟臣委員詢答結束之後，我們進行處理，處理完畢之後我們再休息5分鐘。"],["主席（吳委員斯懷代）：下來請廖婉汝委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}}},{"id":"148953","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148953","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029505e1f8bda1419c6bdc0b11ed89c5ff9c986728e607a03223d00db2279bb929c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:17:52 - 10:29:31","影片長度":"00:11:39","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回顧與展望（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【12月11日及13日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-20"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":699,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:29:31+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:17:52+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":433,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時17分）謝謝主席，有請黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委上台備詢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，委員早。"],["郭委員國文：主委好，關於開放銀行的第一階段、第二階段都已經上路了，現在好像進入深水區，也就是交易面資訊的部分，把開放銀行的政策落實是具有相當大的挑戰性階段，我個人認為這是在第三個部分。我看到第一個部分有27家銀行跟6家第三方的TSP合作，第二階段有17家跟2家TSP合作，可是主委，到了第三階段的時候，TSP的家數會不會越來越少？第三階段會不會沒有啊？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們預期，因為其要求的標準更高，包括剛才沈召委提到資安上面要特別注意，我想應該不會像以前那麼多。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！現在已經6家、2家，那以後會不會更少？標準越來越高嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["郭委員國文：門檻會越來越高嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["郭委員國文：因為開放銀行這樣處理下去，我覺得最關鍵的、讓外界最擔憂的還是在於整個資安風險的應對。第二個部分，主管機關到底有沒有可能頒布一些指引規範？第三個部分是TSP分級制度，我覺得這三個部分是這樣子。","我個人在看金融科技，往往過去的操作模式都是把它當成一個體制外的沙盒模式處理，當我們付出一些社會成本之後再進行修正，這是我觀察到的第一個現象。第二個我觀察到的現象就是，主委你會把這些金融科技當成鯰魚來刺激傳統銀行，要求他們做金融科技的一些精進跟改善，結果老實講，這些創新業者的命運其實就是鯰魚而已啊！事實上他們也沒有辦法形成真正的創新業者，結果就成為你提升、改變傳統銀行業者的體質，就我覺得，主委是不是有這種可能性？先回答前面再來說後面。"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實從金融聯合總會發布的金融科技創新報告來講，過去這幾年金融業者跟科技業者合作的比率趨勢是大的，的確是這樣的趨勢。"],["郭委員國文：整體而言是有注意的啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["郭委員國文：我同意啦！只是多數人在他們人生選擇中可能離開了原來傳統的金融機構，投入所謂的金融創新，結果他們發現在制度沒有完整時，半路就死在沙灘上了，但是改變了整個體質，自己變成一個成就傳統業者的養分，這是我個人的觀察。這不是重點啦！重點是我要請你回答剛剛那個部分。","簡單的講，關於TSP，整體而言現在的方式對資安風險的應對怎麼處理？因為它將來掌握了很多訊息啊！所有的訊息中，由整個第三方來做統籌、分享，這裡頭的資安問題怎麼處理？我在想，這個第三方真的有資歷、有辦法去應對資訊風險的管控嗎？更何況銀行端都還要設立所謂的資安長，這個第三方有辦法這樣做嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實您垂詢的邏輯跟剛剛沈召委垂詢的邏輯是相同的，就是覺得這三方的關係必須要拉平，才能讓民眾有信心。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我也特別要跟您報告我個人的想法，Open Banking其實是來自於一些歐美國家，那些國家的銀行競爭強度不像臺灣那麼強，所以他們 Open Banking 有很大的市場在；臺灣本身的銀行競爭就已經相對激烈了，所以民眾對於Open Banking，尤其第三階段的發展是不是跟其他國家一樣，這個我們要再觀察，可是制度上我們還是會繼續規劃下去。幾位委員對我們的垂詢指導，我們會立刻調整。"],["郭委員國文：對，參與其中的這些TSP業者當中，也有一些傳統金融機構介入、參與，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：周邊吧！然後像一些電信業者……"],["郭委員國文：對，電信業者，我手頭上這邊就有遠雄嘛……"],["黃主任委員天牧：遠傳。"],["郭委員國文：等等都有參加嘛！也有一些壽險公司……"],["黃主任委員天牧：第一階段比較多……"],["郭委員國文：國泰人壽也有嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：有些記帳公司……"],["郭委員國文：對，這些都有啊！但將來會不會演變成部分的金融機構參與，另外一個部分沒有，會形成一個不公平的競業現象？"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前應該不會，因為目前開放銀行第三方的制度還沒有規劃完，所以剛剛有委員垂詢什麼時候會開始，我想我們規劃完之後，包括剛剛委員您垂詢的一些事情，我們在檢討的時候會再看看整個規範是不是符合委員的期待。"],["郭委員國文：所以一部分是我們在進行第三階段交易面資訊的審議階段，另外一部分也在考慮如何把它建立一個規範，至於我剛剛提到資安的部分，頒發指引規範還有分級都可能在討論當中嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，尤其今天經過這樣的一個專案報告，我們得到委員很多的高見跟指導，我們回去會立刻再討論一下，看現在我們報來的東西是不是合乎委員的期待。"],["郭委員國文：你們約莫多久的時間會把這個討論做出一個初步的成果……"],["黃主任委員天牧：跟委員報告，我們原來在報告中規劃是年底，我們看儘量是不是照委員的期待在年底前，但是也符合委員對於內容上的要求。"],["郭委員國文：好，這部分變成您納管的業務好像又越來越多了，所以我再追問你一個問題，我在總質詢時問了陳建仁院長，但對你個人是不好意思，我是說有沒有可能另外把貴單位的整個組織編制多增加一個金融科技局，後來院長有沒有跟你們進行討論？"],["黃主任委員天牧：行政院有交代我們去做研究，我們也在研究中。"],["郭委員國文：研究中？那你們多久要陳報行政院？"],["黃主任委員天牧：初步意見是在現況中，我們現在還能夠接受新的業務，還能夠在行政院同意增員的額度之內做調適。"],["郭委員國文：你們要未雨綢繆啊！我都已經在幫你們講話了，你還這麼客氣！"],["黃主任委員天牧：未雨綢繆可能就要看，如果大的調整包括增加局處的話，可能要做更完整的規劃，我們正在做細部的，這還牽涉到……"],["郭委員國文：細部規劃約莫要多久？其實大家除了擔心你們管理嚴格之外，還擔心金管會的負擔過重……"],["黃主任委員天牧：這除了負擔之外，還需要看看針對這樣業務的新增，設置一些固定局處，對未來金融業發展的助益是什麼。"],["郭委員國文：而且對於社會現象產生出來的問題能夠予以遏止。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，能不能都能夠解決這些問題……"],["郭委員國文：真的，這些問題現在是層出不窮……"],["黃主任委員天牧：包括科技這些東西，金融發展……"],["郭委員國文：大家對金管會的期待又很高，所以你們的業務一定越來越重，我是建議你們這個部分內部規劃要提早進行，向上陳報，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，瞭解。"],["郭委員國文：另外有關於純網銀部分，我看起來是有一家不符合規定，就是福爾摩莎產物保險不符合規定……"],["黃主任委員天牧：純網保。"],["郭委員國文：對。另外一家中信網路產業保險，基本上已經宣布退場，這是金管會2022年時開放純網保的唯二兩家，之所以唯二兩家，是當初你們的管理辦法第二十九條之一，關於壽險的部分，保障型商品的限制非常少，另外產險部分，創新型的定義又不清楚，現在你們又對外宣布明年1月份要開放申請純網保，明年1月開放，會不會純網保變純「亡」保，就是game over，都沒有業者了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們不太確定，因為重點是市場上要提供類似這種跟異業合作的商品，事實上我們在今年10月已經大幅放寬保險業電子商務跟異業合作的一些注意事項……"],["郭委員國文：那些商品規範，已經突破第二十九條之一了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，我們有大幅突破，會後我們會提供給委員參考，現在已經有業者跟異業在做合作規劃了。"],["郭委員國文：所以說純網保的可能性還會持續進行嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：還會。"],["郭委員國文：好。另外，有關人頭戶限制的部分，您提到明年會上路，上路的部分就是會進行所謂的管制行為，假設被宣布為人頭帳戶，那麼他一天只能提領1萬元。現在問題來了，有些人頭帳戶本來也是受害者，一不小心就成了人頭帳戶，這種人會不會變成二度受害者？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個部分謝謝委員垂詢，我記得有一些例外，就是如果他以薪資為主的話，有一個帳戶可以讓他用，這個我請局長跟委員說明。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，這個是所謂的告誡戶，告誡戶是警察機關在開的……"],["郭委員國文：所以告誡戶的認定權在警察……"],["莊局長琇媛：對。"],["郭委員國文：你們就看警察提供了誰，你們就負責執行？"],["莊局長琇媛：是。"],["郭委員國文：那有沒有連坐處罰？他明明只有一個帳戶被用了，那其他帳戶會不會也這樣處理？"],["莊局長琇媛：因為按照告誡戶的辦法，是以人名，就是ID控管，所以只要是那個ID的話，在銀行的所有帳戶都會……"],["郭委員國文：全部？"],["莊局長琇媛：對。"],["郭委員國文：那將來他還有機會透過TSP方式來進行交易嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：如果以這樣來看的話，因為他的帳戶還是控管，所以銀行在系統上會把那個帳戶做控管。"],["郭委員國文：所有可能性都沒有了？"],["莊局長琇媛：對、對。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝局長。最後我再問有關灰名單的部分，這其實也是局長的業務。灰名單其實就是把這個加碼研議出所謂殭屍帳戶的管控，我認為這是一個不錯的作法，防患於未然，但目前的問題點是灰名單的業者只有9家銀行加入，4家公股、4家民營，加上一個郵局，主委、局長，這會不會太少？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員……"],["郭委員國文：38家耶，總共，約定帳戶的部分啊！"],["莊局長琇媛：上次在委員指導之下，我們已經要求灰名單的部分會在第一季全部都要上路，剛剛委員說的那個是明年1月，到第一季是全部都要上路。"],["郭委員國文：明年1月全部都要上路？"],["莊局長琇媛：對。"],["郭委員國文：明年1月全部上路，好，謝謝你，謝謝主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請費鴻泰費委員上台質詢，在費鴻泰委員質詢結束之後，我們休息5分鐘。好，請費委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 二、審查本院民進\n黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00004"}}},{"id":"148952","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148952","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029f298f3f10319a90892351fad24fff329c986728e607a0322ab0d6644c104b4b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:14:07 - 10:24:28","影片長度":"00:10:21","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":621,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:24:28+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:14:07+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":391,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時14分）謝謝主席，本席想邀請教育部，先讓邱部長休息一下。"],["主席：教育部是梁副司長。"],["梁副司長學政：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問教育部，國防部針對義務役拋出了3+1方案，同時也希望大學生在3年內要完成大學學業，然後用1年的時間來服役，教育部則研擬提供經費，引導大學來協助學生完成役男專案服役，有意願申請的役男需要在學期開始的2月或9月向戶籍地公所申請，在學期當中陸續完成入伍前置作業，對不對？"],["梁副司長學政：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以在這樣的情況之下，要在學期結束後的暑假或寒假入營服役，在完成服役之後，由各校來協助復學的輔導。所以本席在這邊要請教教育部，目前申請的人數有提高嗎？你要怎麼樣去確保不會造成學生在學習上的衝擊？你是否有持續地掌控各校的辦理情況？請說明。"],["梁副司長學政：是，跟委員報告，教育部在這個修業彈性措施有三個基本的原則，第一個就是一定要確保學生自主的意願；第二個在不影響他……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，自主的意願很重要。"],["梁副司長學政：對，第二個就是不影響他專業能力的養成。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，專業能力的養成非常重要，因為是3+1，所以要思考縮短的時間要怎麼去補足。"],["梁副司長學政：是，第三個，我們會用3+1也不影響他整個畢業所要求的相關學分的條件。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：畢業的要求當然不會受影響，只是說在學習歷程當中要怎麼樣能夠補足，這一點很重要。"],["梁副司長學政：是，跟委員報告，因為他有1年要服役，所以我們希望能夠3+1，就是在原來大學4年畢業這樣的期限內可以完成，那他勢必需要在其他的3年當中，譬如說原來在學期……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，4年縮為3年嘛！要怎麼去補？"],["梁副司長學政：對，如果他有這樣的意願，有這個可能性，我們必須要提供這樣的一個彈性措施。原來各校可能有限制修習的學分數，我們會希望針對有申請這個專案的學生能夠增加，另外再加暑期的暑修，還有像跨校的選修。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個本席剛剛已經告訴你了，就是在暑假、寒假嘛！"],["梁副司長學政：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那現在申請的人數有提高嗎？"],["梁副司長學政：是，跟委員報告，從這一個學年開始有學生陸續要來申請，根據到12月5日為止的資料，已經有7個學校，總共46名學生來向學校……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：跟你們預估的人數相符合嗎？"],["梁副司長學政：我們不敢預估，因為是尊重學生自由的意願，所以我們比較難去預估。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對這一個政策，目前有46位申請，你滿意嗎？"],["梁副司長學政：當然我們還是配合國防政策，希望持續透過學校來跟學生宣導。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，那我想請國防部長好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教育部稍等，謝謝，我們一起來討論。部長，因為教育部現在說是你們這邊的需求，對現在的這個人數你滿意嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我沒有什麼滿意不滿意，我們當初訂了如果要服這個義務役的話，我們只要求1年是連著服役，沒有服一半的，寒假來一段時間、暑假來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不能斷。"],["邱部長國正：對，至於其他的配套，教育部有他們的作法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你有沒有人數的KPI？你對人數有沒有什麼希望？"],["邱部長國正：我沒有期望3+1的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長沒有期望嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我沒有，只要能夠如期的按照我們所推動1年的役期來服役就好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：既然有一個政策，我們當然就有一個目標嘛！現在教育部說有46名，依你們國防部的目標，你認為這樣夠嗎？是夠還是不夠？"],["邱部長國正：沒有，我們沒有設定這個目標嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來，請說。"],["鄧司長克雄：只是其中一個選項，沒有一個目標。"],["邱部長國正：對啊！一個讓他們有多元選項的問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來，請單位主管來說明一下，謝謝。"],["鄧司長克雄：跟委員報告，因為這是整個役期調整的一個配套，我們是提供有需要的在學役男學生多元的選項，給他一個管道跟一個選項，依他個人的意願跟他的能力來提出需求，所以並不是以它的數目多寡來作為它KPI的指標……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以數目不拘嘛！"],["鄧司長克雄：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以大家講清楚喔！"],["鄧司長克雄：就是提供他一個管道。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是提供一個管道，大家聽到了喔！"],["鄧司長克雄：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以不用有壓力，要好好努力去做就對了。接下來，部長，因為單位需求的人是在您這邊來訓練，但是教育部在這邊，也就是大專院校有7所學校願意努力去辦，但是也有學校拒絕，教育部，是不是？也有學校跟你們說我沒辦法配合？"],["梁副司長學政：不會，跟委員報告，因為我們是從這個學期才開始，民國94年次的學生……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以現在有7所學校要辦？"],["梁副司長學政：目前已經有7所學校、46個學生，陸續還會有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前有7所學校。"],["梁副司長學政：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：既然是既定政策，我們也希望政府要去落實，如果人家願意辦，你們不管在經費或者是在需要協助的時候就要全力以赴。"],["梁副司長學政：那當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：才能夠達陣成功，好不好？"],["梁副司長學政：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個要努力好不好？"],["梁副司長學政：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你們到一個階段請把數字給我，包括有幾所學校願意、有持續在辦、人數到底多少，你再提供書面資料給本席好嗎？"],["梁副司長學政：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你請回座。部長，本席要請教，我們的義務役役期從現在的4個月恢復到1年，我們規劃有5個階段的訓練，包括入伍基礎訓練、駐地訓練等等，最迷人的就是在他們的訓練當中，步槍兵實彈射擊數不得低於800發，還有操作標槍飛彈、刺針飛彈等高階專長武器，所以大家就非常期待。請教部長，我們現在符合訓練的基地夠不夠？我們目前要服1年的會有九千多人嘛。"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們統計大概有9,127人，每一年一定會再增加，在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教部長，我們訓練的基地現在到底夠還是不夠？"],["邱部長國正：關於訓練基地，因為它原本就有新訓任務，有幾個旅長期以來都是這幾個，後來為了這一回增加役期到1年，射擊的數量也要增加，所以我們就開闢或者去找有些可以在那邊實施訓練的靶場，我們普遍的來運用。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在準備好了嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我們都同步在做了，去年在宣布以後、一年多前就編組了專案小組，針對駐、用還有訓場統統同步在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：換句話說，我們這九千多個1年期役男的訓練場所準備好了，我可以這麼解讀嗎？"],["邱部長國正：準備好了，這沒有問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這沒有問題？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要再請教，關於我們的軍事投資計畫，我們希望技轉能夠讓我國的國防產業跟世界接軌，這個是我非常支持的一點，所以本席要請教，我們在經濟部跟外商簽妥工業合作協議書前即先簽署發價書，事後工合的部分繼續來談判，有一個彈性嘛！"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教，如果會影響到談判的彈性，那會衍生國外承包商的意願低迷，等於是不利我們整個國防工業的技轉，所以在這一點本席要請國防部跟經濟部合作，經濟部今天也有來嘛，經濟部，請。"],["主席：產發署連署長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：經濟部也在現場，本席非常希望國防部跟經濟部要密切合作，一定要、務必要密切合作，因為我們國內的國防工業必須要由政府來協助他們，而且希望能夠技轉，讓他們跟世界接軌，這就是我們的目標，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，本席要請教，本黨所提出的國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案，是針對主管機關以及經濟部應該要鼓勵外國的廠商跟合格的廠商進行產業合作跟相互投資，所以我們增訂並落實技術移轉的規範來提升我們的國防自主，改善產業環境，以利我們跟世界接軌，你同不同意本黨所提出的這個法案？"],["邱部長國正：同意啦！這個對我們國防自主有幫助嘛！像剛剛委員所關切的，一定要經過哪些單位、國家，但我要跟委員報告，我們有些不管是發展或軍購各方面都跟很多地方同步在做，不能只用一個地方去做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，當然，廣泛性的。"],["邱部長國正：只要對我們有幫助的我們都樂見。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：扶植國內的國防產業。"],["邱部長國正：事實上，現在也跟經濟部密切合作當中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我今天很高興聽到部長這樣講，經濟部也在這邊，我們必須要合作來扶植國內的國防工業、產業好不好？謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：是，這應該要做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加油！"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，接下來請吳斯懷委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}}},{"id":"148951","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148951","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1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- 10:17:31","影片長度":"00:13:52","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回顧與展望（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【12月11日及13日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-20"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":832,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:17:31+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:03:39+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":314,"blocks":[["李委員貴敏：（10時3分）謝謝主席。主席，我們麻煩請主委。"],["主席（沈委員發惠）：好，請黃主委上台備詢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["李委員貴敏：主委好。你記得上禮拜我在質詢你的時候你告訴我的答案，關於敵意併購的適格者的答案跟實情不符，這個你知道嘛？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，其實我們……"],["李委員貴敏：沒有關係，你告訴我……"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們有發函給您報告了。"],["李委員貴敏：你告訴我你知不知道？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我知道。"],["李委員貴敏：你知不知道你告訴我的答案跟實際上不一樣，沒有關係，但是你知道嘛，對不對？我今天只要確定你知道……"],["黃主任委員天牧：我知道。"],["李委員貴敏：好，謝謝。因為在當天，主委，當天在你回答之後，我光是走到後面還沒出大門的時候，所有的媒體朋友就跟我講，你的答案是錯的，OK？但是還好，你當天下午就更正了嘛，你當天下午就更正了，但我還是要鼓勵一下，人誰無過，對不對？過而能改善莫大焉。對不起，我犯了大怒，不應該講這個古文的出處的。但是重點在於知道錯了可以去改它，我在這裡還是嘉勉，但是我還是要鼓勵、拜託主委，我們的憲法規定人民有知的權利，讓人民知道事實的真相，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝。"],["李委員貴敏：好，謝謝。那我們開始今天的題目，第一個就是牽涉到年底作帳的行情。主委，你認為我們年底所謂的作帳行情是可以到1萬8嗎？還是怎麼樣？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們不預估股價。"],["李委員貴敏：好。因為我們看到媒體的報導，還有民間的憂慮，你剛剛前面才答應我說你會讓老百姓知道事實的真相嘛！我沒有要你預估。但是在民間就有顧慮，到底現在是一個作帳行情，還是一個作夢的行情？主委怎麼看？是作帳，還是作夢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：證券市場就是資訊揭露，民眾就是審慎選股，注意風險。"],["李委員貴敏：對。但是我們看到11月的營收公布了，11月的營收我們看起來並沒有大幅度的起色，可是我們的股價是不跌，然後反而竄升，所以民間才在說到底年底的作帳是真的有作帳行情，還是單純的作夢，這個是炒出來的？您沒有觀察到這個現象，還是說有這個現象、民間有這個顧慮，但是你置之不理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：股價有些反應是國際跟國內一些經濟金融情況的變化，尤其我們是以半導體電子產業為主，所以跟美國的費城半導體或NASDAQ的連結是有一定的程度。"],["李委員貴敏：好，是因為國外國際股市影響的關係？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有一些產業，不是所有。"],["李委員貴敏：OK，所以也要提醒民眾，因為顯然11月的營收出來，各公司出來的情況都不太妙啦！我第二個問題要請教的，同樣，我今天問的問題都牽涉到民眾知的權利，純網銀的虧損是持續擴大，今年6月份我們看到虧損的數額，從2022年底，再比較到今年第三季的數字，它是持續的擴大，這個在5年之內它是可以損益兩平嗎？目前的現狀是怎麼樣？這些純網銀的部分會再繼續投入，還是我們的金管會到底做了什麼樣一個措施？"],["黃主任委員天牧：今年至少有兩家以上辦理增資，我們不斷的跟他溝通，他需要哪些業務的開放，這是我們在做的。"],["李委員貴敏：對，那你有沒有全部公開，然後讓全民知道？因為我們在搜查資料的時候好累喔！"],["黃主任委員天牧：今天我們的報告就是已經公開了。"],["李委員貴敏：5年內損益兩平是可以達成的是不是？很務實的回答我。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我沒有這樣子預估，我至少在過去財委會有說有一家有可能也許在5年之後會有損益兩平。"],["李委員貴敏：好，所以只有一家……"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為他開業時間不一樣。"],["李委員貴敏：好，所以其他部分是你希望，但是他沒有辦法達成就是了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這是要大家努力的，不是只有金管會。"],["李委員貴敏：不是，這個已經虧損這麼多的努力的金額，就是說欠錢欠一定比例的錢，然後能不能達成，就是它有一個比較務實的評估方式，然後你的鼓勵措施是什麼？這個可不可以公布？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個就在今天的報告中……"],["李委員貴敏：沒有，我就是沒看到才會問你嘛！對不對？我要的是很務實的，而不是說我提到一句話，今天的報告裡面就有。我再另外提一個東西也是民眾非常非常關心的，那就是投資詐騙，主委，這個投資詐騙的東西我可不是只告訴你1年、2年而已，對不對？這個在以前很早的時候我就已經提醒了，可是我們看到今天這個投資詐騙創新高，然後關於解決的部分，數發部說他們有建立，唐部長跟Meta也好、跟Google也好，他們有溝通，然後金管會也上了這個平台，我們看到你上了平台之後，這個投資詐騙的廣告是暴增的，除了1.5萬件之外，這個是表面上的，還不包括潛在的，潛在的部分還有更多，所以對於這個東西，金管會有沒有在我們提醒了1、2年之後究竟做了什麼樣的措施？我們也知道，主委，你不會否認現在民眾用的最多的是LINE嘛，對不對？是不是？還是你否認？"],["黃主任委員天牧：用了多少，我想LINE是其中之一吧！"],["李委員貴敏：多不多？"],["黃主任委員天牧：但是多少，我沒有這個數據。"],["李委員貴敏：我沒有問你數據，我說多不多嘛？"],["黃主任委員天牧：多是一個相對的概念，我不知道……"],["李委員貴敏：你連多不多都不肯承認它多不多，那我就回答你……"],["黃主任委員天牧：都很多，每個平台都很多。"],["李委員貴敏：都很多，謝謝，都很多！那我們解決了Google、解決了Meta，LINE的地方不用解決嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，LINE不是屬於金管會這邊在上次規劃範圍之內的。"],["李委員貴敏：好，所以簡單來講，Google是你主管的？"],["黃主任委員天牧：Google也不是我們主管，我們只是在……"],["李委員貴敏：Meta是你主管的？"],["黃主任委員天牧：也都不是我們主管，只是在投信投顧法安排一個條文。"],["李委員貴敏：既然這些……，不是，那你的回答要有邏輯啊！對不對？我問你LINE的部分，你說LINE不是你主管，然後我前面才誇獎你Meta跟Google解決了，那Meta跟Google也不是你主管的，為什麼它們二個解決了，LINE……"],["黃主任委員天牧：那是跨部會合作要求在投信投顧法訂一個法源。"],["李委員貴敏：懂了，所以簡單來講，Meta跟Google的解決跟金管會無關，是因為跨部會的關係解決，所以現在LINE不解決，就是跨部會也有問題，所以它沒辦法解決，因為這三個都不是金管會主管，所以沒有辦法解決！邏輯是這樣子嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這個我們會再繼續努力。"],["李委員貴敏：不是，我剛剛問你的問題，你哪一件事情不持續努力了？我們現在要解決問題啊！我們現在不是要行政單位一天到晚制定規則A、B、C，然後要老百姓屈服，今天你在說很多問題，前面說我們應該要仲介的部分，叫民眾不要受騙什麼東西，你的職責不在叫民眾不要受騙啊！是不是？你既然是在管，那麼你主掌的職務你就要負責。好，我們再看一下，主委，你說洗錢防制是你管吧，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：金融機構的洗錢防制。"],["李委員貴敏：好，你上次的答案是說合法機構的洗錢防制。"],["黃主任委員天牧：金融機構的洗錢防制。"],["李委員貴敏：好，你今天更正，也很好！那我就請教一下，主委，高資產客戶的財富管理會不會變成洗錢的一個管道？我說開放外銀會不會變成一個洗錢的管道？會，還是不會？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個推論我覺得有問題，任何的業務都要受到……"],["李委員貴敏：那我告訴你，我覺得沒問題，你知道為什麼我覺得沒問題？主委，我覺得你應該比我熟，過往是不是曾經就有過外銀幫我們某一個政治人物的錢大筆、大筆的洗？媒體上面也有講啊！那個訊息你不知道？"],["黃主任委員天牧：任何金融機構的業務都有可能……"],["李委員貴敏：不是，我問你知不知道那個訊息？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我聽說過。"],["李委員貴敏：我剛剛前面提到，我沒有指人道姓的原因是我不希望把這個模糊焦點，對不對？但那個訊息，就是過往外銀在洗錢的部分，幫政治人物洗錢這件事情你知道嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我應該有聽說過。"],["李委員貴敏：好，很好，沒關係，因為我們不講誰嘛！但是現在對於高資產客戶的財富管理，你怎麼避免類似的情形發生？還是現在就有政治人物需要捲款潛逃，透過洗錢的這個方式來做？有沒有這樣的……"],["黃主任委員天牧：申請的時候就會去做審查。"],["李委員貴敏：申請的時候去審查什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：申請開辦業務的時候就會做審查。"],["李委員貴敏：你是審查誰？"],["黃主任委員天牧：審查申請要做高資產客戶財管業務的金融機構。"],["李委員貴敏：對，然後怎麼樣子……"],["黃主任委員天牧：它的審查計畫……"],["李委員貴敏：你去審查它之後它就不會有洗錢的問題，你這個邏輯是怎麼出來的？"],["黃主任委員天牧：它的計畫中會列出它在洗錢防制的規劃跟執行。"],["李委員貴敏：對，那怎麼樣呢？你過往沒做嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：都有做。"],["李委員貴敏：我剛剛前面講的那個案子，你沒做嗎？那你都有做，為什麼前面的案子發生了？你現在做的跟前面那個案子發生的內容是什麼差異性呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：那是後面執行或是違法的問題。"],["李委員貴敏：好，很好，對不對？主委，你願意坦誠講，我們才能夠解決問題！執法的問題，現在這個高資產客戶財務管理的部分，你怎麼樣透過你的執法確定它不會成為政治人物洗錢的管道？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們金融機構都有跟法務部的洗錢犯罪防制中心，如果有疑似的交易就會通報。"],["李委員貴敏：那以前為什麼會發生呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員……"],["李委員貴敏：你以前沒有跟法務部有聯絡？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，那個個案我不太清楚，我只知道有這樣一個印象。"],["李委員貴敏：對，但是你現在就要面對它嘛！以前發生的就是給你一個教訓嘛！對不對？你已經上了一課，你就要解決嘛！這種用迴避的方式─我們會盡力、我們會努力、謝謝委員指導！這個真的不必要啦！","下一個我要請教你就是，主委，同樣的，我們講虛擬資產監理的部分，你現在是不做嘛！但是我提醒你，Z世代，也就是我們說11歲到26歲Z世代的部分，他們對於虛擬資產的投資占比是相當大的，這個東西，你是打算怎麼樣子來保護我們這些年輕人？還是你的邏輯就是我要提醒他，他自己做的事情自己負責？就這樣子？還是說你現在是用什麼樣的態度？因為71%的民眾認為應該要強化監理，你現在是認為不需要還是怎麼樣？金管會態度是什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們是投資型虛擬資產的主管機關，9月份發布指導原則，年底VASP工會成立，會訂自律規範。"],["李委員貴敏：主委，你真的要這樣子念書、背的話就沒什麼太大意思了，你知道X世代、Y世代、Z世代，還是你不知道？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我知道。"],["李委員貴敏：好，那Z世代是幾歲啊？"],["黃主任委員天牧：1995年以後出生的。"],["李委員貴敏：好，沒關係，差一點點無所謂啦！但對於這些人，你跟他們講說我們有什麼東西，你要他……就解決問題了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：上架、資產區隔、冷熱錢包，這些都是我們在九大原則中有規劃的。"],["李委員貴敏：主委你這樣講就沒意思了，我們看到JPEX問題，你解決了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：那個不是，那是off show的，不是on show的。"],["李委員貴敏：對啊，那你為什麼讓off show的在臺灣能夠買賣呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：任何非法的東西都不是我們能完全禁止的，但是我們會廣為宣傳……"],["李委員貴敏：我的天啊！所以你的態度就是對於非法的部分沒輒，你要老百姓自己去決定它是合法、非法，你只做大內宣，要他們自己注意。","最後一個問題請教之後我就下台，關於防疫險的部分，再保你有出面協調嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：現階段我們不會介入，那是商業上的契約。"],["李委員貴敏：那再保公司不賠的話，對我們的業者有多大的衝擊？"],["黃主任委員天牧：會不會賠我不確定，我不能回答假設性的問題……"],["李委員貴敏：沒關係，我就假設嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：我不能回答假設性的問題。"],["李委員貴敏：假設性問題你不回答，然後你對真正發生的問題遺憾，那我們怎麼解決問題呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我沒有說對真正發生的問題遺憾，真正發生的問題需要相關法律形式程序，需要政府機關說明的，我們會說明。"],["李委員貴敏：你不覺得這個事情，我們說預防勝於治療，你不認同？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，商業契約處理的時間是很重要的。"],["李委員貴敏：所以民間的問題，你不管就好？"],["主席：好，李委員……"],["李委員貴敏：我再請教，你知道寵物保險現在剩兩家，那毛小孩怎麼辦啊？你也不管？"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為它的損失率非常高，業者做不下去，所以目前只有兩家。"],["李委員貴敏：所以你就是不管，政府的態度就是即便知道問題發生，然後這些民間要處理的事情民間自己處理，那我們就乾脆無政府嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這樣的說法並不公平……"],["李委員貴敏：如果是這樣的態度的話，我會認為乾脆就無政府，這些錢省下來。以上謝謝。"],["主席：好，李委員謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，謝謝你。生日快樂。"],["主席：謝謝李委員的配合，李委員生日快樂。"],["李委員貴敏：謝謝主席、謝謝主委、謝謝大家的祝賀，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請郭國文委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 二、審查本院民進\n黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00004"}}},{"id":"148950","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148950","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a7202981a18d680cb3ca9692351fad24fff329c986728e607a0322f1752e0d5a860ce85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:03:49 - 10:13:51","影片長度":"00:10:02","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":602,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:13:51+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:03:49+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時3分）謝謝主席，麻煩邱部長。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長國正：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。我們常在國防委員會討論一些決策的問題，因為不管是武器的研製、採購或者是軍事的部署，從決策到執行，部隊是一個口令一個動作，所以決策很重要，也因此我今天特別在我們這一屆任期的最後階段，希望跟部長討論一件事情，我覺得這個決策看起來不大，但影響其實很深遠。不管是我們自己國造的武器，比如天弓系列、雄風系列，或者是雷霆2000，或是我們對外採購的，不管是現在傳說的AGM-158，或者是F-16V或海馬斯，我們都是追求更精準、打得更遠、嚇阻力更大，也就是精準、更遠，花的經費其實相當多。回到我們的單兵，也就是一個步兵擁有的突擊步槍，相較這些大筆的金額，其實金額並不大，但是我們的步槍對單兵的作戰能力，特別是在國土保衛戰，我們看到不管是發生在以色列，過去發生在喬治亞，或是現在發生在烏克蘭，臺灣是一個城鎮遍布的環境，我們沒有像大國有一大片的曠野和沙漠，所以精準、打得遠，對於提高步兵存活率和戰鬥力其實是很重要的，我相信部長在這方面比我更專業。現在我們的單兵所使用的步槍，我也看到軍備局確實有開始研製下一代XT112步槍，但我必須提出意見，這項決策我真的希望部長思考看看。國軍現有的步槍是T91嘛！"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["王委員定宇：但是我們的後備部隊以及一些支援型的部隊還在用T65K2。我先請教部長，就你瞭解，我們T91的評價如何？"],["邱部長國正：針對T91，目前官兵的反映各方面都還滿不錯的。"],["王委員定宇：其實我們T91的評價是好的、是不錯的，我們的武器可以出口，T91的槍還是我們少數可以出口的裝備之一，所以針對T91，包含國際上的分析，認為臺灣的國造T91步槍是一把好槍，做得不錯，這個要肯定。T91步槍的口徑是5.56的，傳統都是5.56的嘛，而現在我們的後備部隊及支援型部隊還有部分是用T65K2，我們的T91還沒有全面換裝完成，我這樣詮釋對不對？目前應該是這樣子吧！現在T91的評價其實不錯，包括穩定度各方面都還不錯，我們現在進行研製的XT112下一個新世代的步槍，它的口徑是不是還是5.56？還是5.56嘛！"],["邱部長國正：我請軍備局來說明。"],["林局長文祥：我是軍備局局長，跟委員報告還是5.56。"],["王委員定宇：為什麼要維持5.56？"],["林局長文祥：它還要再加裝一些夜戰的……"],["王委員定宇：我們還要加裝一些光學瞄準……"],["林局長文祥：是，按照陸軍的……"],["王委員定宇：那個我等一下會提，我的意思是說我們下一代單兵用的步槍，口徑為什麼還是維持5.56？它並沒有變新，你懂我的意思嗎？口徑是一樣嘛！"],["林局長文祥：報告委員，因為我們在射擊時，5.56是造成人體傷害的口徑，目前美軍對於人體的傷害也是都採取5.56口徑的。"],["王委員定宇：所以我就要跟你提這一點嘛，5.56有它的優點，它穿透性好，以前俄製的大概是7.62的，它是撞擊力大，打了會停下來，我們的5.56打幾槍，中彈之後可能第一時間還不曉得、還會往前跑，加上現在各國的防彈鋼板越做越好，所以就5.56的穿透力和嚇阻力……，尤其我們的兵是精兵，對方可能是用人海，如果我們不能壓制住他，他還是往前衝的話……，其實這是一些思維的考慮。我現在要提的就是我們在有限的經費下，有兩件事情是我今天要具體建議的，美國下一代的步槍已經不是用5.56了，他們的下一代步槍是用6.8mm的，他們的下一代步槍當然有很多新的設計，他們的XM7是用6.8mm，老共現在正在用的步槍已經揚棄AK系列了，他們現在也是用6.8的……"],["林局長文祥：5.8……"],["王委員定宇：6.8，大家都開始採用6.8的，但是我們現在國造的下一代步槍還是維持5.56的，關於這一點，部長，因為你們是專家，是不是在我們相關的兵工產業討論看看？如果我們要研製下一代的新時代步槍，我們跟盟友之間又是合作關係，我們在步槍的口徑上有沒有必要思考大家下一代走同樣的，因為口徑的銜接是有影響的。第二個，會走到6.8有它的原因、道理在，特別是現代戰爭，在研究口徑上，就像我剛才講的，要打得準、打得遠，雖然口徑大後座力就大，但是它相較來講有一些優點。","另外，我們的資源有限，國防資源永遠不夠，我講真的，這是永遠不夠的。部長，我們在這邊共事那麼久了，我永遠都是希望給國軍更多的預算、更多的資源，讓我們的官兵弟兄用更好的裝備，防彈背心要用更好的，我們的槍要用更好的，是不是在現階段的這些經費上，把我們現在評價不錯、還沒有全面換裝完成的T91……。其實在未來的戰爭環境，光學瞄準打得準，握把打得準，然後可以看得更遠，我們現在就是訓練實戰化，可是我們訓練實戰化用的是那個圈孔的瞄準，並沒有光學瞄準，在平常訓練時是這樣打，等到戰場上給他光學瞄準，他還未必會。所以我的意思是說，我們現在單兵要特戰化，作戰環境訓練實戰化，而我們所處的環境掩體、房舍、精準度、射擊距離對單兵的存活率其實很有幫助，所以在這樣的情形下，就我們下一代研製的步槍XT-112，我具體建議國防部思考下一代我們國軍弟兄所需要步槍的口徑是不是應該往6.8走。我沒有定論，我尊重專家，我只是告訴你，各國是往這樣走，那我們自己還在維持5.56。至於說我們現在庫存一大堆5.56的子彈要怎麼樣處理，那個不是問題啦！因為我們如果未來走到那一天的時候，T-91就會變後備部隊的，好槍給後備部隊嘛！我們現役的主戰部隊開始先換裝下一代新式步槍，可以走6.8mm的，所以子彈不會浪費的啦！","所以我提出兩個建議，在研製方面思考新一代步槍的口徑跟需求，因為我們現在只是試做幾把而已，錢還沒有砸下去，研製都還在構思當中，否則走到未來決定量產了，我再來講這個，我覺得就是浪費公帑了，所以要思考第一步走對來。第二個，對於我們現有的部隊，特別是主戰部隊，是不是全面的把光學瞄準跟握把變標配，讓他作戰訓練實戰化，讓他平常就熟悉這些裝備，在面對不管是灘頭、城鎮各種作戰環境，精準度提高，存活率提高，射擊距離拉遠。我們不管是雄二、雄三、弓二、弓三，我們在用所有新式大裝備的時候，都在思考更準、更遠、存活率更高。我們最寶貴的國軍弟兄姊妹們在使用單兵作戰武器的時候，其實應該要套進同樣的思維。未來我們每一個單兵都是我們國家重要的資產，存活率要提高，訓練要提升，然後讓他掌握的裝備跟真實要用的裝備能夠一致，這樣對我們國軍建立一個具備嚇阻力的戰鬥力量才有幫助。","我剛才提出這些建議，因為我怕這是這個會期我們兩個人最後一次見面，希望不是啦！也歡迎來我那邊坐。我是不是跟主席借幾分鐘，請問部長怎麼看這個事情？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，委員的看法很對，我們任何一個建案，第一個考量就是為什麼要建這個案，一定是因為敵情，敵情有了變化，我們也要與時俱進，所以我們說有這麼做的需要，第一個是考量任務，看任務能不能執行；第二個是考量敵人有什麼變化，我們也要跟著變化，這絕對是對的。剛剛委員提的建議也有很具體的，我想我們國軍建案也好，建軍這個工作要與時俱進，敵情有什麼變化，別的國家有如何的發展，這都是很好的參考，國軍不會停止我們的腳步，我們不管以後在建案各方面，從飛彈到槍砲到一般個人用的武器，我想都要把握這個原則來做。"],["王委員定宇：我相信邱部長啦！是不是把我剛才提的這件事情納入一個正式的討論評估？"],["邱部長國正：是，我瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：因為還來得及，我們還沒開始，所以思考清楚，把它一次做對來，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝部長。"],["邱部長國正：這是應該的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝王委員。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}}},{"id":"148949","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148949","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029daeec09b911980edbdc0b11ed89c5ff9c986728e607a0322530e3db8d85c974a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:51:38 - 10:03:34","影片長度":"00:11:56","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回顧與展望（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【12月11日及13日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-20"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":716,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:03:34+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T09:51:38+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":243,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時51分）主席，請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：召委早。"],["沈委員發惠：主委早。我們今天所列的專題報告主題，除了剛剛已經有一些委員討論的純網保、純網銀的發展以外，另外一個部分就是有關我們開放銀行政策的回顧跟展望。有關我們的開放銀行政策，包括你今天的書面報告，就是我們在開放銀行部分是分為三個階段來辦理，第一個階段大概單純是公開資料、公開資訊的揭露，第二個階段則是在這些個資的部分，要進入第三階段就牽涉到交易面了，對不對？我這樣理解對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是的，比較牽涉到個人交易面的敏感資訊。"],["沈委員發惠：就不只是資訊了，它是交易面了，這才是第三階段嘛，前二個階段都是資訊啦，都是公開的資訊或者是個人資訊。大概在108年9月（2019年9月）第一個階段就已經開始做了，是公開資料查詢，109年12月是第二個階段，是消費者資訊查詢，大概都可以，我們接下來，以我的理解，以你的報告，我們要在今年年底要實施第三階段，是不是？要進入第三階段了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是這樣子，報告中是說我們做好自律規範跟資安相關的機制，把它報備之後，要讓社會大眾向銀行業者瞭解。"],["沈委員發惠：我們預計什麼時候？在這邊講好了，預計什麼時候？"],["黃主任委員天牧：恐怕應該要到明年上半年了，如果有業者願意去做的話。"],["沈委員發惠：明年上半年？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，6月以前。"],["沈委員發惠：那我們自己的準備工作，包括我們公會所做的第三階段有關交易部分的自律規範，是不是我們已經擬定出來了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，就是年底前我們會核備。"],["沈委員發惠：年底前會核備？"],["黃主任委員天牧：今年年底前會核備。"],["沈委員發惠：他們送給我們了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該有，有。"],["沈委員發惠：好，送給我們了，它跟第二階段的自律規範有沒有什麼樣的差別？一模一樣還是……"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該比較複雜，主要是交易面、資安面等方面牽涉到……"],["沈委員發惠：對，因為牽涉到交易面，但是我沒有看到……"],["黃主任委員天牧：請局長說明一下。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，因為第三階段是交易要發動，所以其實資安就非常重要，現在公會訂的以及財金公司訂的資安及技術的標準裡面，會針對哪些可以開放做交易訂出一些項目，以及應該注意的個資還有資安的一些標準。"],["沈委員發惠：你沒有回答我的問題啦，我是說他們已經送來了，你們看過了沒有？現在新的、針對第三階段的自律規範跟原本第二階段的自律規範相比有沒有改變？"],["黃主任委員天牧：請局長講。"],["沈委員發惠：就是針對交易的部分，有沒有更加嚴謹？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，裡面其實有幾項重點，就是說……"],["沈委員發惠：你跟我講有沒有改變就好了。"],["莊局長琇媛：有，有改變。"],["沈委員發惠：好。因為我在看這個，主委，我們第一階段只是單純公開資訊查詢的時候，有27家金融機構及6家TSP業者參與；到第二階段開始要揭露個資的時候，就縮到剩下17家金融機構參與，也就是有10家他說我公開資訊可以，但是要到個資，他就不參與開放銀行這部分了，TSP業者也從6家縮成2家。以這樣的作法來看，我們在一開始第一階段實施光是公開資訊，我們有38家金融業者，只有27家參加，有11家不願意參加開放銀行的公開資訊的部分；接下來就要進入第三階段，在第三階段的部分，我們預計會有多少家來參與呢？這部分我們有沒有瞭解。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想家數應該不會像第一階段那麼多，主要是因為交易面牽涉到的資訊特別敏感，所以大家是不是信任那個TSP業者、TSP業者願不願意做都是一個因素。"],["沈委員發惠：對，主委，你講到重點了，大家信不信任TSP業者，你講的金融機構這麼專業都不知道信不信任了，更何況消費者，這是一個三方的關係……"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這是金融業者跟TSP業者以及消費者三方的關係，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["沈委員發惠：三方的關係中，如果連金融業者對TSP業者都還有一些疑慮的話，那消費者要怎麼相信，他要如何信任這個平臺呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：誠如您剛剛也垂詢的，所以我們對於公會跟財經的規範才會不一樣……"],["沈委員發惠：現在有二個部分，公會是自律規範的部分……"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["沈委員發惠：財經公司是針對，因為它完全是線上的東西，我們對於它的資安的要求一定是最重要的，尤其要進入交易層面更重視資安的要求，但是我們知道，依照現在的法令，我們的銀行金融業者本身，因為是國家基礎建設，所以我們對它的資安要求等級是最高的，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["沈委員發惠：是最高的，但是我們對TSP業者的資安要求有到這個等級嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：TSP業者必須透過銀行與其之間的關係去制約它，而不是透過我們。"],["沈委員發惠：對，我們對於TSP業者的資安要求有到銀行這個等級嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有。對。"],["沈委員發惠：沒有嘛！對啊！但是事實上它在做同樣的事，它必須可以存款、可以扣款、可以交易、可以做帳戶的變動。"],["黃主任委員天牧：不過像第二階段是集保跟遠傳，這個部分集保當然就是我們的周邊單位，相對大家比較，我覺得……"],["沈委員發惠：所以我的意思是在資安技術層面的要求上，我們認為你至少在要進入第三階段的時候，對於這些TSP業者的資安要求應該要有所提升，至少TSP業者是不是有設專業的資安人員，這個我們都不知道，目前也沒有規範、沒有要求，更何況如果萬一這些TSP業者的網路服務是委外，它再委外進行網路服務的話，那這些網路服務作業的資安要求層級就更低了。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，非常感謝您今天提出這些提醒，因為我自己沒有看到它在局裡審查，我回去之後會立刻找局裡面，就您所垂詢的重點去檢視是不是符合這樣的要求。"],["沈委員發惠：好。一樣是這部分，我要再談的是消費者，如果萬一發生消費爭議，我剛剛講過，它是三方關係，是消費者、TSP業者跟金融機關三方的關係，它有3個合約的關係，但卻在一次交易行為裡面完成，之後如果萬一發生消費爭議的時候，他有什麼樣的申訴管道？這部分也非常重要。我看到目前現在到第二階段的銀行公約自律規範，其中第十條規定有關消費爭議，於一定金額內由會員銀行先行給付給消費者，就是發生糾紛之後，銀行先給付給消費者，但是這個一定金額是多少是各銀行自訂，自己訂多少金額還是公會大家有一個規定說在多少金額之下，金融機構必須先行承受？"],["黃主任委員天牧：2萬塊錢，報告委員。"],["沈委員發惠：目前我知道，這2萬塊是我們規定的？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是公會訂的。"],["沈委員發惠：公會規定2萬塊？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["沈委員發惠：因為我看到臺灣企銀跟第一銀行在網頁上面，他們有公開說2萬塊錢他們會先支付，但其他的銀行都沒有揭露這些訊息，我不知道其他銀行的金額是多少。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們會要求他揭露，這是公會訂定的。"],["沈委員發惠：再來，有關爭議發生時的處理機制，主委，目前我們民眾如果跟銀行之間發生消費糾紛，可依照金融消費者保護法受到保護，會有一個評議的程序，但是我如果透過TSP平臺，它所適用的法規，按照自律公會第三條裡面提到，如果有爭議，他是受到消費者保護法的保護，他是受到比較低階的消費者保護法的保護，但是我如果是跟銀行發生糾紛則受到金融消費者保護法的保護，這部分我們是不是應該要請銀行自律公會，在他們的自律規範裡面把它提升到金融消費者保護的層級？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，委員您垂詢的部分，我們也一併去檢討。"],["沈委員發惠：這部分我認為是應該啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["沈委員發惠：最後一點時間，兩個禮拜之前金管會曾經發布新聞稿，呼籲民眾有關資金借貸或債務協商等需求勿輕信代辦業者，金管會在11月29號有發這樣子的新聞稿，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，謝謝。"],["沈委員發惠：事實上過去10年金管會發了十幾次這樣的新聞稿，但是我們在電視上還是有看到一些代辦業者的廣告、電視廣告都有，不是所有的代辦業者都是非法的，可能有一些是合法的，例如銀行所委託的，銀行自己委託辦理房貸、車貸、委外辦理行銷業務受委託的機構，這個可能就是合法的代辦業者，因為代辦業者在法律上，在我們所有的規則裡面，我們也看到代辦業者的定義，對不對？主委，現在……"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們下一次做宣導的時候把它定義清楚，是什麼樣的情況之下的代辦業者民眾要小心。"],["沈委員發惠：對，你們那天所發的新聞稿，你們在新聞稿的最下面有提供一個資訊，說如果民眾有需求，可以利用中華民國銀行商業同業公會全國聯合會網站貸款免費資訊專區，點進去這個專區，你們新聞稿裡面這樣講，結果我點進去這個專區裡面，我看它裡面有關業者行銷的檔案再點進去，我再點進去看，裡面的資料是102年的，是11年前的資料。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這個不應該，我們回去立刻去調整，謝謝。"],["沈委員發惠：我的時間到了，這部分我要跟主委講，像這種我們發布新聞提醒消費者小心，但是我們卻沒有提供真正讓消費者能夠清楚如何受到保護的資訊，這樣很不應該。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，委員，這個的確不應該這樣子，我們會立刻改進，謝謝委員指導。謝謝。"],["沈委員發惠：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。主委請回座。下一位請李貴敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 二、審查本院民進\n黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00004"}}},{"id":"148948","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148948","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029d83699840f43e86592351fad24fff329c986728e607a0322b52d3f1a881be2f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"09:54:39 - 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LED或類似太陽能的相關組件，因為中國用削價競爭模式，導致臺灣的競爭力逐漸下降？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。這確實是國際社會上非常關切的議題。對臺灣來講，就成熟製程部分來說我們有幾個方向：一，即使是成熟製程，我們希望更多的是成熟製程裡的特殊製程！而特殊製程要跟客戶做相對接的研發與驗測，如此才能確保我們仍可以持續作為國際的重要供應鏈。二，從明年開始的晶創計畫希望能讓我們的半導體，不管是製造端或IC設計端都能再往前推進，並更與國際供應鏈合作，這是民主自由國家都在思考怎麼樣一起合作，來應對未來趨勢……"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有錯！現在全世界都看到中國在先進製程的競爭力拼不過我們台積電，所以才會在成熟製程這一塊大量投入，他們想要用這個當武器去掐住全球半導體的供應鏈！因為所謂的成熟製程，包括車用晶片和一些AI，在全球有75%以上都採用成熟製程。如果未來這一塊被中國掐住了市占率，他們再採削價競爭的模式，那我覺得這件事情是應該要被擔心的！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以除了我們自己要精進外，我們相信臺灣除了台積電護國神山，還有更多像聯電、力積電，這些也是護國群山。我要跟部長具體建議，如果成熟製程的設備或人才，也就是臺灣的設備或人才要輸往中國，一旦中國的廠商背後有官方色彩的話，我覺得我們至少要有備查或審查這二個強度。當然，並不是不讓它過去，但是他要過去的時候，至少要讓我們經濟部可以精準的抓到哪一些設備商可能會跟中國的攻擊性投資兜在一起，部長，我覺得這件事情我們是不是要認真來思考一下做這樣的管制，其實這個也是很輕度的管制，但至少可以保護我們臺灣的半導體成熟製程，我覺得這個是不是應該要來思考看看？"],["王部長美花：好，謝謝委員，這個有一點細膩，而且這個也需要跟相關的國家一起來協商，不過委員建議的部分，我們回去之後來會大力來思考，這個……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我覺得這個部分我們應該要早一點防患於未然啦，因為我們知道中國就不是跟你做公平競爭啊，第一個，他們從過去的海盜王國，設備一進來，他們有可能就整個給你照抄，他也不管你所謂的智慧財產權，中國不理這一塊！既然不理這一塊的話，如果我們臺灣去參與了他的，我們提供設備，我們雖然是賣給他設備，但是後來、未來他不需要了，他就自己做了，他就自己做了，然後變成臺灣去加速了中國成熟製程的進展，這個我們要小心，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，所以我覺得這一塊我們要趕快提出臺灣的因應措施，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，第二個問題，我知道現在經濟部以及相關的部會、國科會，事實上也有在考慮嘉義可能是需要，包括我們要有再生水廠，包括未來可能要有海淡廠，我想這些都是嘉義未來要邁向我們要有一些科技產業的布局所需，因為我們需要確保用水的供應無虞。如果我們要投入再生水廠的話，我想要請教部長的是，再生水廠的範圍是不是可以把我們相關的，因為嘉義科學園區旁邊就是馬稠後，我們是不是可以把馬稠後也納入所謂再生水的範圍，以提高未來這些科技廠需要再生水時的水量。"],["王部長美花：是，這個部分，應該是說國科會不要只管科學園區，委員講得很好，就是說附近的這一些如果可以連在一起來思考再生水的話，那會比較有效率，甚至可以再提高。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為嘉義的科學園區跟馬稠後大概距離不到3公里啦，它相對是很近的，所以我們如果可以把這二個園區，用一個大的同心圓概念，把它都納入所謂再生水，我想未來任何科技廠需要使用再生水時，它的水源會更多。"],["王部長美花：是，這個在跨部會討論的時候我們會提出來。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，當然最後還是要拜託部長成就我們嘉義，替我們再繼續美言啦，我想嘉義也希望像邱委員所說的一樣，就是我們整個半導體產業的廊帶，在南臺灣這邊是一個整體布局嘛，而這個整體布局最北端大概就是嘉義啊，整個南科創造的半導體廊帶，我們嘉義應該也是要加入成為一分子，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，不是嘉義就是高雄啦。部長，特別是剛剛提到的成熟製程的人才跟設備輸出，之前我也跟你反映過，今天主席（召委）也提出，希望是不是能夠在1個月之內，針對成熟製程的部分，未來如果你不做相關的管制，未來它可能會占到市占率50%。所以針對成熟製程的設備、人才的輸出，你們一定要有相關的管制，不管是事先的審查，還是剛剛召委所說的事後查備或者是備查，都要有相關的機制啦，你們不能完全沒有管制，就讓他要去就去，這樣不但是人才會外流，設備也會讓他們獨占，未來這個可能對會護國神山群形成一些負面的作用，這部分是不是1個月之內？"],["王部長美花：我們跨部會來討論。"],["主席：是不是1個月之內提出，可不可以？"],["王部長美花：這個相關的討論恐怕會需要比較久的時間，因為它涉及到跨部會的問題。"],["主席：那改成2個月啦。"],["王部長美花：3個月好不好？"],["主席：好，3個月，謝謝。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘）：部長應該可以感受到現在都是高雄跟嘉義在關心半導體未來的發展，我們都很關心。","登記發言委員除不在場者之外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員呂玉玲所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","翁重鈞","陳椒華","邱志偉","呂玉玲","陳超明","蘇治芬"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00003"}}},{"id":"148946","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148946","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029dd3d3dbef777a57e92351fad24fff329c986728e607a032260c7ea4c0278d45c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳以信","委員發言時間":"09:41:35 - 09:54:23","影片長度":"00:12:48","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":768,"end_time":"2023-12-11T09:54:23+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T09:41:35+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":181,"blocks":[["陳委員以信：（9時41分）謝謝召委。是不是請邱部長？"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長國正：陳委員好。"],["陳委員以信：部長早安，你是陸軍出身嘛，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員以信：你知不知道AR-15的步槍？"],["邱部長國正：AR-15可能很早期的，我沒有研究。"],["陳委員以信：很早期啊，那你有沒有用過？你沒打過？"],["邱部長國正：沒有。"],["陳委員以信：你知不知道這一款步槍1分鐘可以打多少子彈？"],["邱部長國正：這個我沒有涉獵，很抱歉。"],["陳委員以信：可以打750發，1秒鐘就可以打12發，這個步槍火力算強吧？"],["邱部長國正：算很強。"],["陳委員以信：我為什麼要問你這個你知道嗎？上個禮拜在美國總統的共和黨初選辯論裡面，幾位總統候選人都談到臺灣問題，當然他們對於美國要協助臺灣自我防衛都有一致的看法，其中也有一位候選人就表示要怎麼樣保護臺灣？他認為美國步槍協會（NRA）應該要到臺灣設分處，而且應該大量提供AR-15的自動步槍給臺灣的每一個人，讓他們用AR-15的步槍來保護自己。","部長，你對於美國總統候選人這樣的一個論點，你身為我們的國防部長，你是什麼樣的立場？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，這議題有時候一扯到選舉的話有點敏感，但我對這種問題的看法，基本上一個國家的國防要自己來防衛，不能夠仰賴其他國家，其他國家對我們有所幫助我們當然樂見，但這個幫助未必要像剛剛委員講的，到臺灣來成立一個什麼俱樂部，還提供什麼槍枝。"],["陳委員以信：這不是俱樂部，它的步槍協會其實就是廣發步槍的。"],["邱部長國正：就算是一個步槍協會好了，AR這可能是自動步槍（auto rifle）這一類，我是沒有用過，但是它提供各種武器給我們以後，我們要衡量，加上我們有我們的裝備，你突然間要送裝備來，各位，這就不叫戰力，要靠外援拿到才有的，我不認為它是個戰力。"],["陳委員以信：部長，我對你的回答其實不是很滿意，為什麼？當然你今天要求我們是以國軍正規軍的兵力來面對臺海防衛作戰，但是現在廣發步槍給每一個人，甚至之前還有美國前國安顧問認為要廣設刺針飛彈在每個派出所，必要的時候統統拿出來，全民皆兵。部長，全民皆兵是不是你的國防政策？你要從這個角度來思考啊！並不是說今天拿把槍來、拿個飛彈來，人民可以用，這個不是你們要的，難道你希望全民皆，然後全民用這個？在這種情況之下，甚至依戰爭法、國際法是有所問題的。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，所謂全民皆兵在我的界定就是全民接受過這種訓練以後，他最起碼知道如何自我防衛……"],["陳委員以信：這個當然是全民國防嘛。"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["陳委員以信：全民國防跟全民皆兵是不一樣的啦。"],["邱部長國正：全民皆兵是服役，大家統統要當兵，我不做這個解讀。"],["陳委員以信：不是，他現在是每人一把自動步槍，每個人都可以拿了刺針飛彈就開始打。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，這是他的一個提議，可能的意見我也聽了很多……"],["陳委員以信：你就說是不是你的國防政策嘛！身為部長，你就說這是不是你的國防政策，臺灣的國防政策該不該如此？"],["邱部長國正：我們沒有這種政策。"],["陳委員以信：不是你的國防政策嘛！"],["邱部長國正：絕對沒有這種政策。"],["陳委員以信：這不是臺灣的國防政策，我就是要你嚴格表達這樣的立場嘛！"],["邱部長國正：是，我現在不知道委員……"],["陳委員以信：美國人關心很多，但是不切實際，全民皆兵每個人拿一把步槍，拿到刺針飛彈就能射，這不是我們臺海防衛作戰的構想，至少國家把這立場講清楚。","我現在要進到下一個問題，我們現在的確在國防整備上面不只全民國防加強，明年國軍的訓練都增加了，不只我們增加了海岸守備旅，我們增加了後備旅。現在我們也看到上面寫說入伍的時候要增加震撼教育，我要問這個震撼教育什麼時候開始、你要怎麼進行？"],["邱部長國正：事實上現在已經在做了，現在4個月役期的他們也在做。"],["陳委員以信：也在做震撼教育嗎？現在也有震撼教育？"],["邱部長國正：有在做。"],["陳委員以信：是多少時間、多少彈藥在那個地方？多震撼？"],["邱部長國正：他在期末入伍完畢之前，每個兵都要經過這個訓練。"],["陳委員以信：現在這個訓練是怎麼樣？多長、彈藥多少、有多震撼、跟以前一不一樣？"],["張次長俊志：跟委員報告，震撼教育等於是一個戰鬥綜合教練的演練，是模擬實戰的狀況，以TNT爆破還有機槍空包彈模擬的狀況。"],["陳委員以信：這個我知道，我在問你量，現在這個彈藥跟過去比是比較少、還是比較多、還是一樣？這中間大概時間要多長、有多震撼嘛？我要問的是這個，你們不是說都規劃好，而且開始進行了嗎？"],["張次長俊志：對，都規劃好，我們今年已經在實施震撼教育了。"],["陳委員以信：細節都不知道就對了？這個震撼教育……"],["張次長俊志：細節我知道，第一個，它沒有實施實彈，是以機槍空包彈、TNT模擬在戰場的情況。"],["陳委員以信：空包彈、TNT多少？長度多長？"],["張次長俊志：長度依照場地我們會有一個標準，它是以障礙物的設置、狀況處置的項次、還有距離來規劃。"],["陳委員以信：你講的都太模糊，我要求你們書面上來跟我們說明這到底是怎麼樣進行。"],["張次長俊志：是，我們會再以圖示的方式跟您報告。"],["陳委員以信：再來，我們現在這種震撼教育非常重要的就是安全，我們不希望在非戰爭時期有任何傷亡。這一種訓練場是在專用的訓練場上面訓練嗎？還是說今天在每個部隊都可以進行？"],["張次長俊志：新訓中心有一個震撼教練場。"],["陳委員以信：現在全國有多少座教練場？"],["張次長俊志：每一個新訓單位都有。"],["陳委員以信：每一個新訓單位都有，總數多少？"],["張次長俊志：一個概略是14座。"],["陳委員以信：14座？"],["張次長俊志：是。"],["陳委員以信：所以他們進行的時候都要在教練場才能進行？"],["張次長俊志：他們進行一定要在教練場，而且有相關防護規定的要求。"],["陳委員以信：好，那我再問，除了這一個新兵的震撼教育，之前應該會有一些安全上面的教育、安全上面的指導吧？這個應該都會做吧？"],["張次長俊志：當然都有，我們在實施之前，幹部也要推演，還要跟測驗的官兵做相關的安全……"],["陳委員以信：部長，你們做一個書面上的說明好不好？"],["張次長俊志：是。"],["陳委員以信：提交本委員會，大家來參考，瞭解你們這個震撼教育新的作法怎麼做，好不好？"],["張次長俊志：好，瞭解。"],["陳委員以信：我是問部長，部長好不好？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，這樣好不好，我們圖示做之前我們要做哪些工作，在一張圖上表達清楚，好不好？"],["陳委員以信：請給一個清楚的書面報告跟本委員會說明。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員以信：接著我要再問的是你們明年要成立的部分，我知道你們在陸軍有海岸守備旅，後備指揮部也有後備旅，然後憲兵也有守衛營，明年有多少新增的要編成？就是海岸守備這些，有沒有？"],["陳參謀長建義：跟委員報告，步兵的守備旅，它是有11個守備旅，它是按照期程來做，一直到117年，陸續的……"],["陳委員以信：你們要編成幾個？"],["陳參謀長建義：它是同步在進行，不會是一次把一個旅……，我們考量到兵的來源……"],["陳委員以信：你們是11個同時開始編？"],["陳參謀長建義：它都有按照每年……"],["陳委員以信：什麼時候會成軍？明年有沒有成軍的？"],["陳參謀長建義：它編到一定的階段就會先有一定的成軍。"],["陳委員以信：你怎麼都說得模模糊糊，都沒有一個答案？"],["陳參謀長建義：不是，因為這個有一個比較完整和詳細的規劃，如果委員要的話，我們可以做一個書面向您報告。"],["陳委員以信：基本上，這些應該都是能夠在國會殿堂跟大家說明的事情……"],["陳參謀長建義：對。"],["陳委員以信：但聽起來都模模糊糊的，都不知道這到底是怎麼樣。第一個，我也要求這個要跟我們來做說明，好不好？到底你這些編成是怎麼樣？","現在我的最後一個問題，3+1彈性修業方案，我們上個會期、之前有討論過，大學3+1的彈性修業方案，目前有多少人申請？有多少大學配合？"],["鄧司長克雄：目前有5位。"],["陳委員以信：目前只有5位？"],["鄧司長克雄：是。"],["陳委員以信：3+1彈性修業方案，目前只有5位？"],["鄧司長克雄：是，第一梯次。"],["陳委員以信：我們大費周章辦到現在只有5位？"],["鄧司長克雄：是。"],["陳委員以信：為什麼只有5位？因為這個設計不良，就像我們當初說的，有很多的問題，包括大學很難配合，個人很難配合，是不是這樣子？3+1彈性修業方案，只有5位。"],["鄧司長克雄：跟委員報告，當初教育部在徵詢意願的時候，有46位學生表達有意願，但目前實際提出申請的只有5位，後續可能他們會視他們的需要提出申請。"],["陳委員以信：會申請就會申請，不會申請就不會申請了啦！"],["鄧司長克雄：而且跟委員報告，這個……"],["陳委員以信：我要問你現在問題在哪裡，當初你們提出來的時候，我們就舉出很多問題了，我那時候就提出了，這樣的一個作法，大學修業大量的減少，而且它裡面有必修什麼擋來擋去，學校會不會為了你又加開暑修，這些東西都很麻煩，而且這種東西男性、女性還不一樣，如果大學真的3年可以唸完，乾脆很多人都可以申請3年唸完嘛！又不是只有當兵的人才可以3年唸完。我當時候就舉出很多問題了，現在我們就看到，只有5個來申請，所以我才問你，你們現在開始實際做了，你們碰到的問題在哪裡呢？部長，回答一下吧！"],["邱部長國正：教育部的部分就由教育部來……"],["梁副司長學政：跟委員報告，教育部這邊做個說明，當然我們已經有頒布那個指引了，主要就是希望同學在不影響他畢業時間的情況下進行，就是剛才委員所講的3+1，所以我們會給他更多的修業彈性，比如說他原來在學校……"],["陳委員以信：會有多少學校配合？這很難啦！你現在一下要將4年擠成3年，然後大家為了你要當兵的這幾個人去調學程，哪有那麼簡單！你現在就只有5個人，我看這5個人還不是同一間大學，每個大學大概就一個人，一個人的話，它為了你去調暑期的學分、去調這些的必修、這些的擋修，我說沒有那麼容易啊！我們從一開始的時候就講過了，現在幾個學校在辦？它有辦法為學生調嗎？"],["梁副司長學政：跟委員報告，之前6月頒布指引以後，7月我們就已經跟學校做說明會，讓學校在今年9月15號開始的這個學期，把相關的學則、教務、章程都修正，包括剛才講的，增加學期當中修業的學分數，包括暑修或者是跨校可以來選修等等……"],["陳委員以信：我問你現在這5個學生分布在幾個學校？"],["梁副司長學政：跟委員報告，目前因為是在尊重學生意願的情況下，大概有7個學校、有46個學生來申請……"],["陳委員以信：不是，我們剛剛講只有5個來申請，你的訊息比國防部還要落後，他剛剛就說5個而已。"],["梁副司長學政：46個是報名，有意願……"],["陳委員以信：但是只有5個申請啊！"],["梁副司長學政：剛才國防部說有5個是實際上提出來……"],["陳委員以信：對啊！前面只是表達意願，但是現在只有5個實際提出來，只有這5個人的學校要去為他們調整嘛！"],["梁副司長學政：不是，所有的學校都要事先調整，以因應……"],["陳委員以信：那我問你，現在有多少學校調整？"],["梁副司長學政：現在幾乎大部分的學校都已經做完調整了。"],["陳委員以信：只是把這個命令、準則公布，其他課程都有調整嗎？"],["梁副司長學政：對，都要做相應的調整。"],["陳委員以信：不是都要做，而是都做了嗎？"],["梁副司長學政：學校從這個學期就陸續開始全部都……"],["陳委員以信：來！來！來！我們也要求教育部針對3+1這方案的實際執行提交書面報告來給本委員會看，因為我們當初就質疑過這個問題了，你現在執意要做……"],["主席：教育部副司長要不要上臺？"],["陳委員以信：這位就是了。"],["梁副司長學政：對。"],["陳委員以信：對！這一位就是教育部的官員，所以拜託召委，請他們提出一個書面報告，說明到底這怎麼做、有多少能夠配合，好不好？"],["梁副司長學政：是。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。接下來請賴瑞隆委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}}},{"id":"148945","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148945","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029e62ed754e601d1f2bdc0b11ed89c5ff9c986728e607a0322ecfde8b3afd21a0f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:39:22 - 09:51:33","影片長度":"00:12:11","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回顧與展望（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【12月11日及13日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-20"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":731,"end_time":"2023-12-11T09:51:33+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T09:39:22+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":175,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時39分）謝謝主席與各位先進，有請黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委上台備詢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：黃主委早。今天談純網銀，這3家到現在都虧錢呢！大家認為它要break-even（損益兩平），大概最快要到2025年，你同意吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員您是專家，我想我們自己的看法也是差不多這個樣子。"],["賴委員士葆：差不多2025才能夠break-even喔？"],["黃主任委員天牧：不是3家都break-even，至少有1家吧！"],["賴委員士葆：有一家可以break-even，那你這樣看，當初我們為什麼要開放呢？追求時髦？我給你一個數字，美國在1995年到2001年，總共五百多家的網銀，結果2005年，中間就隔個10年而已啊，還在持續營運的不到十家，從500減為10家，這是美國的例子啊！就代表純網銀，你剛才解釋的那些，如果沒有其他的業務，只是說存款放寬、我透過網路操作比較方便，那你要跟傳統的銀行競爭都很難競爭，因為傳統銀行裡面也可以用網路操作啊，對吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！所以就是你沒有niche，我就看不到純網銀的niche在哪裡？現在孩子生出來了，但看起來養不大，我不知道你心裡有什麼感受？你有沒有覺得有一點難過的感覺，會不會？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們覺得應該要繼續努力，但是目前這個情況並沒有特別的出乎意外，因為本來就是一開始成立的時候，它有很多資訊的成本啊，還有人員一些相關建置的成本，本來就是需要一段時間。"],["賴委員士葆：所以估算這3家都需要增資？"],["黃主任委員天牧：今年就有在增資。"],["賴委員士葆：明年看起來可能也需要增資。"],["黃主任委員天牧：但是增資的幅度，我們期待不會像過去那麼多。"],["賴委員士葆：我重點在強調如果純網銀沒有它的niche，跟傳統銀行的網路操作相比，那它就被打死啦！根本一點競爭力都沒有啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：主要是因為純網銀……"],["賴委員士葆：我想不通純網銀它怎麼活？怎麼活？"],["黃主任委員天牧：跟您報告，因為……"],["賴委員士葆：我個人想的，除非一個，純網銀很厲害，把你的錢拿進來，它替你去投資，可是這個要存戶的同意啊！否則我是定存的、我是活存的，你幫我拿去投資還要經過我同意耶！除非你販售很多金融商品，你找人家很會操作的，來我這裡都可以買到收益很高的金融產品，除非這樣子，否則它活不了啊，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實當初3家純網銀來申請的時候，主要一個模式都是生態系啦，每一家網銀後面都有些特質，有的是電信、有的是社群媒體……"],["賴委員士葆：這些長處都沒有發揮到嘛！來，我們再看2017年，那時候行政院長叫賴清德，遠東銀行遭到駭客入侵，賴清德做了一件事情，要銀行賠，銀行好像有賠喔！來，請問你，純網銀可不可要求預備賠償金？因為現在臺灣的資安不安全啦，我們資料隨時被駭，然後都很便宜被賣掉，所以純網銀被駭的機會是比一般的銀行更高，你有沒有要求它的預備賠償金，有沒有？"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前沒有，但是跟您報告……"],["賴委員士葆：可不可以考慮？"],["黃主任委員天牧：銀行如果發生被駭，就按照一般實體銀行一樣，如果是銀行有責任，當然就必須跟消費者有一個交代啦！"],["賴委員士葆：就是要賠啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：那就是要看個案嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：要賠啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["賴委員士葆：那資安有沒有每年測試？有沒有要求他們每年測試？像交報告……"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，您是專家啦！純網銀number one就是資安風險、流動性風險、信譽風險這些，有7大風險。"],["賴委員士葆：現在看到網路詐騙廣告橫行，下班時間、假日更為猖獗，我就問你一個問題，金管會有沒有專責的稽查單位或稽查人員在下班、假日去看一看，說不定我們主委你的頭貼被駭了，也被冒用了，被拿去說黃天牧說怎麼投資可以賺錢等等的，有沒有？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個有發生過，我跟您報告，我們的周邊單位都有監督所有網路上相關投資詐騙的的訊息，我們證期局也有同仁每天接受外界的一些案件，需要二個平臺下架的就下架，該通報相關警政單位的就通報警政機關，都有相關的建置。"],["賴委員士葆：你們要不要把這個結果定期對外公布？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有啊，我們上禮拜就有公布。"],["賴委員士葆：現在來講，外界會覺得奇怪，蘇貞昌當院長時代是打詐國家隊14億，陳建仁院長的打詐叫什麼隊啊，13億，陳院長是辦公室，蘇院長是國家隊，二個加起來27億，但怎麼越打越多、越打越多，怎麼會這個樣子呢？今年11月投資詐騙就710件，超越去年的全年度，我看到一則報導說金管會跟Meta（就是Facebook）及Google建立一個投資詐騙廣告蒐證下架機制，你要不要講一下這個機制？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，這個其實也要感謝委員的支持啦，就是如果我們看到在網路上或是有人申報在平臺上有這種不當的詐騙行為，我們就透過這個管道要求這二個平臺下架，他們必須在24小時內下架，如果不下架，刑事局那邊就會要求它改善或懲處。"],["賴委員士葆：現在外界對臺灣的詐騙這麼橫行，其實就瞄準幾個單位，其中就是金管會，因為你是管錢的，在你手上最有可能，你工具很多啊，你要幫忙是可以幫忙的。","另外，今天是財委會最後一個委員會了，大概是第10屆你最後一次來這裡了，當然你繼續在這個政府裡面，但是我在猜，明年5月改組的時候你還會不會繼續留啊？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我的任期到明年5月19號。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你任期到5月19號？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["賴委員士葆：繼續在那裡。那麼從現在到5月19號之間你最想做的一件事情是什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：穩定資本市場。"],["賴委員士葆：穩定？那我就請教你，一般來講，你是金管會主委，請問影響股市表現的最主要因素是什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：基本面。"],["賴委員士葆：基本面？賺不賺錢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：就是上市櫃公司營運的體質好不好，有沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：賺不賺錢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["賴委員士葆：政府的政策會不會影響？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對不起，我沒聽清楚。"],["賴委員士葆：政府的政策。"],["黃主任委員天牧：產業政策、貨幣政策等各方面都有……"],["賴委員士葆：這個屬於消息面。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，還有國際政經情況的變化。"],["賴委員士葆：好，政治面會不會影響？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個國際政經就是國內外都有啊，只是成分的多少而已，這個因素很多，就像您所指教的……"],["賴委員士葆：我們是主權獨立國家，這個會不會影響股市表現？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們一向都是主權獨立國家。"],["賴委員士葆：對，這個會不會影響股市表現？就因為這樣表現特別好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我覺得股市基本上就是一個國家經濟發展的櫥窗。"],["賴委員士葆：來，我們來看，賴清德副總統說啦，台股超越港股是因為臺灣有主權香港沒有，我想了老半天，我覺得奇怪，就是你講的基本面、業績好不好等等的，當然我也高興臺灣超過香港，我們鼓掌。我今天就問了ChatGPT，它說台股超過港股的表現通常與臺灣主權沒有直接關聯，有關係的就是基本面、企業業績、政府政策及國際環境。最後一句話則是，一國的主權不是直接影響股市表現的主要因素。老實講，賴副總統要怎麼樣去主張他的台獨思想，我們都沒有意見、尊重，台獨金孫到底、台獨到底我們都沒有意見，但是不需要連這個也跟主權扯在一起，主權早就有了啊！過去香港都贏臺灣，香港也沒有主權啊！臺灣早就有主權了，中華民國主權早就是在那裡啊，過去表現都比它差，現在好了只是因為我們有主權，這個邏輯都不通啊！我們覺得是非常不通的一件事！你剛才回答也是等於間接不同意我們賴副總統所講的話啦。最後一個……"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，您可能不能這樣引申，因為他做一個說明應該會有後面的論述，可能我們要瞭解他的論述。"],["賴委員士葆：他的論述就是因為主權啊！有主權所以表現好。過去表現不好，為什麼？也是有主權啊！這不通啦！我說這個邏輯不通。","另外，他有講到一個原因，他說臺灣經濟果實，全民共享，香港沒有。他講到這個，那我們就來看，這個最重要的是什麼，受僱人員薪資除以GDP的比例，臺灣逐年下降至43%，歐盟、美國、日本都大於50%，臺灣68%的勞工領不到平均薪資，這都是事實啊！我就藉這個機會提醒賴副總統，你要講一些話，台獨理念怎麼貫穿我都尊重，但是要多做功課啦，不然說出來會被人家笑啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席（吳委員秉叡代）：謝謝，請主委回座。","下一位質詢請沈發惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 二、審查本院民進\n黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00004"}}},{"id":"148944","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148944","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720291a438c3b81a444e28436ae49ab83f6e2c986728e607a0322333f0a6540d534985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"09:42:44 - 09:50:26","影片長度":"00:07:42","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查本院委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-10-8-19-14"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":462,"end_time":"2023-12-11T09:50:26+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T09:42:44+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":541,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（9時43分）謝謝主席，有請王部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長早。雖然距離選舉投票剩下1個月，但是還是要堅守崗位。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：一定要喔！國會議員的工作一定不會受到選舉的任何影響，該來我就是會來，該質詢還是要質詢，該審查法案還是要審查法案。","今天第一問題請教部長，對於核能的想法，像全球對核能的見解或者對未來的趨勢有不同的看法，特別是歐盟，把這個視為綠電的一部分，核能可能跟過去的核能有不同的樣態、不同的方式，不是像過去的核一、核二、核三、核四這種，可能它未來的安全性會更足夠，未來我們在能源轉型的過程中有沒有可能調整政策？把核能視為未來發電的選項之一，或者把未來的核能視為綠電的一部分，有沒有可能朝這個方向？"],["王部長美花：第一個，歐盟其實是把核能當作永續能源分類，它最主要是針對銀行在講永續的時候，能不能對核能的機組做相關的貸款等等，歐盟是在這個部分得出一個比較肯定的結論，但是我們理解他們在討論的過程中，其實爭議也是很大。第二個，對未來的……"],["邱委員志偉：不是每一個國家都同意啦！"],["王部長美花：是，對於未來的核能，事實上我們也都很關心未來的相關發展，臺灣核能的兩個問題，一個是夠不夠安全，一個是核廢料怎麼處理，所以未來的技術我們都會密切觀察，如果能夠產出很少的廢料，甚至沒有廢料的核融合技術的話，我們其實都樂觀其成。對臺灣來講，目前現狀光是現在核二機組核廢料的乾貯設施都還沒有拿到證照，所以臺灣應該要務實來面對這些問題，中央與地方大家真的應該一起合作。"],["邱委員志偉：有在野黨說如果他們當選會重啟核四，你覺得從技術上來看可行嗎？有可能嗎？"],["王部長美花：核四部分其實我們說過很多次，不僅有潛在地質需要調查，且其興建過程確實是比較拼湊式的發包。就現在已經完成的部分來說，原來的廠商都解散了，至於中央電腦的部分在沒有完成前就已經沒有了……"],["邱委員志偉：核四重啟機率幾乎趨近於零？"],["王部長美花：我們認為在安全上是不太可能。"],["邱委員志偉：參考鄰近國家，比方日本、南韓的作法，他們對未來核能的看法與政策上，有沒有什麼新作法？"],["王部長美花：日本確實在福島之後核機組停了，以致電力不夠，所以日本有讓一些電力再恢復，因為使用期限還沒有到，所以讓它恢復；韓國則確實在發展核能產業。另外，就地質環境來說，我們跟韓國相比，韓國相對是比較穩定的……"],["邱委員志偉：比較穩定？"],["王部長美花：對，比我們穩定。所以第一，韓國在發展核能技術；第二，它的地質比較穩定，因此韓國也說還是有核能技術。對於未來核能的新技術，我們都會密切觀察。"],["邱委員志偉：之前我請教您關於台積電1.4奈米的建廠計畫，有很多縣市希望能爭取；而在爭取過程中是一定會比區位條件，看哪個條件比較好。到目前為止，就本席的瞭解高雄應該是首選，其次應該是嘉義？"],["主席：對，就說定啦，謝謝邱委員的禮讓。"],["邱委員志偉：首選是高雄，從水電、地質環境、交通及產業聚落來看，目前是否已經定案了？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，事實上，就現在中油這塊地來說，目前在蓋一個廠……"],["邱委員志偉：那是2奈米，再往北一點就是橋頭科學園區的第2期，那部分大概也是台糖土地，有100多公頃，原本是爭取要做產業園區，但現在市政府希望能夠超前部署，預先規劃做橋科第2期，這點你們也同意；但你們另外一塊要補給我，也就是產業園區的另外一塊要補給我，還有，未來是不是把那個區塊視為2奈米的建廠預定地？因為市政府與地方有很強烈的需求，也強烈希望，我們也都準備好了，水電各方面都沒有問題。至於未來台積電是不是朝這方向思考或規劃，則取決於主管機關的意見。如果部長或經濟部能推薦或支持這方向，讓2奈米再加1.4奈米形成產業聚落，在高雄成為未來 S廊帶，半導體的 S廊帶，甚或讓高雄成為未來的護國城市，這個非常重要。不知部長看法為何？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。未來1.4奈米廠要設在哪裡，目前有幾個大方向，一個是廠商的布局，第二是相關的客觀條件，包括土地、水、電，當然，第三就是包括地方的支持，這幾個條件都不可或缺。承蒙委員極力推薦，我們都一定會在評估的時候反映出來……"],["邱委員志偉：樂觀其成？"],["王部長美花：是，我們都會反映出來。"],["邱委員志偉：嘉義也不錯！"],["王部長美花：是、是。"],["邱委員志偉：但高雄市首選！"],["主席：為什麼要爭第二名？"],["邱委員志偉：因為可能有兩個廠。每一個城市都在競爭，但還是以台積電的建廠需求與規劃為主，不管是嘉義或高雄，我還是希望經濟部能協助，畢竟我們都在南臺灣！嘉義未來可以和臺南、高雄一起成為產業聚落，這也可以！但高雄更不錯了，所以我們大家一起努力！"],["王部長美花：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝部長，謝謝邱委員。由於拜託邱委員幫我主持，所以我剛才都很客氣。"],["主席（邱委員志偉代）：請蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","翁重鈞","陳椒華","邱志偉","呂玉玲","陳超明","蘇治芬"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00003"}}},{"id":"148943","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148943","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720295e57caa75e3d4f3a8436ae49ab83f6e2c986728e607a03226348e1de93919e675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳椒華","委員發言時間":"09:35:07 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09:41:13","影片長度":"00:09:35","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":575,"end_time":"2023-12-11T09:41:13+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T09:31:38+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":138,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時31分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長國正：陳委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長好。部長，我想請問一下關於我們的伙食費，其實伙食費說真的我們每年都有調整，可是我現在跟你討論那個幅度，要麻煩部長留意。物價其實這幾年真的飆漲的比較快，雖然每年都有調整，基本上，112年度每位士兵每個月的伙食費用大概是2,913元，每一個人平均一天的伙食費用是97.1元，一餐大約是32.3元，這個是我從你們的數字裡面去分析出來的，其實他每天三餐吃得到的費用基本上不到100塊，沒錯，因為我們是大量採購，材料、物材還有所有原物料的成本都可以降低，降低的話可能跟一般外面的食材價格又不大一樣，可是確實是量。我覺得大家在受訓當中，說真的，我們的役男又要受訓又在發育，反正很多的狀況，其實我想他需要更多的一些補充。我必須強調，我們每年都有調整，可是我們的調整其實比不上物價，所以我們是不是可以自己訂一個，如果可以隨著物價調整調幅，可能這個比例會比較準確一點，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：瞭解。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我們可不可以用這種思考方向？"],["邱部長國正：是，我很感激委員注意到這一塊，事實上，一般聽到國軍的伙食一個月平均不到3,000，沒有錯，九十多塊錢，一百塊不到要吃三餐，外面是難以想像的，但國軍辦伙有要領，第一個是人員，有多少人起伙，我們把它管制住，可能有100個人的費用，但是當天假日的時候只留了一半的人，但這個錢一樣投注在裡面，這第一個；第二個是我們的工本費，即人員的運作費用可以節約，所以早期伙房是自己部隊服役的人，後來好像強調不能這樣子，服役歸服役，伙房要外包，所以這個錢就增加了，但我們國軍調整的方法如同剛剛委員講到是逐年增加，再怎麼追也追不到，但辦伙是個要領，我們買水果或是其他食材都是應景的、大量的，比較經濟一點。"],["陳委員亭妃：而且我們量比較大，採購相對也會比外面便宜，這是一定的。"],["邱部長國正：對，這一定的。"],["陳委員亭妃：但是我們確實看到整個物價上漲的比例，所以我覺得我們可以自己訂，也讓家長可以安心，因為未來的役期從明年開始其實已經改為1年了，所以我們在這一塊要讓家長更安心，讓他們知道沒有問題，我們未來的伙食會依照目前的物價指數隨時調整，這樣子家長也會比較安心一點，所以這個部分再麻煩你。"],["邱部長國正：瞭解。"],["陳委員亭妃：第二個部分是兵役延長的配套還有整備現況，現在準備的如何？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，去年公布之前有很多專案編組已經編成了，我也跟他們講公告要1年落實，從明年1月1日開始，這一年當中，我們對各營區從駐到訓，這些場地都在不斷地檢查而且驗證，有些地方已經有教召部隊在使用，將來也會納入準備訓練當中的一環。我跟委員報告，現在有同步在做，而且我們還滿有把握，初步瞭解明年1月大概會招九千多人，而且第一季大概將近600個左右，我們有哪幾個單位接、場地在哪裡示範，我都親自去看過，都有同步在準備，沒有問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：有，部長，這個部分我有去調你們的資料，未來1月份的時候，我們要招收這些1年役期新兵的部分，你預計第一批多少人？"],["邱部長國正：大概600人左右。"],["陳委員亭妃：600人左右嘛？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：原本有一些營區我們可能本來是考慮7月份才要接這些1年期的新兵，但是有些營區好像往前提早了，是不是？"],["邱部長國正：提前是因為它平常也可以駐用。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有，但是這個要比較小心的部分是，假如這個營區中有4個月役期的兵、有1年役期的兵，我覺得這個部分我們要做一個調整，我覺得1年役期的兵就歸1年役期的兵，4個月役期的兵就歸4個月役期的兵，因為他們的生活作息其實會有所不同。"],["邱部長國正：我瞭解。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，會有所不同，作息有所不同的話，為了讓大家在整個訓練過程中比較順遂，我覺得這個思考的邏輯一定要注意。"],["邱部長國正：是，我瞭解。"],["陳委員亭妃：這其實是我們在基層當中聽到很多家長的建議，就是怎麼樣把未來……，因為我看了資料確實有一些好像有提早，就是在這個訓練營區當中，有4個月的役男，也有1年的役男，但他們在整個訓練的作業其實是完全不同的。這個真的要提醒你，看怎麼樣把這個SOP做好，我的建議是就是1年……","因為我們營區其實就像部長所說的，其實從我們開始決定要延長1年役期的時候就已經有做好一些準備了，既然有做好準備，我們更應該就1年役期的完整性跟4個月役期的完整性分別處理。"],["邱部長國正：瞭解。"],["陳委員亭妃：這樣子可能帶兵，包括我們這些長官會比較好管理。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個其實是很重要的。"],["邱部長國正：是，我了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，你了解我的意思嘛？"],["邱部長國正：我了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：過去可能是這個方向，可是最近好像在營區上有調整，但我覺得還是有些比較不妥的地方，因為我調資料有看到。這個部分部長是不是有可能重新檢討，把SOP訂好，可能會讓我們的訓練更完整，讓所有役男的整個心情調整會更好。"],["邱部長國正：我了解。跟委員報告，很粗略的講，基本上明年開始入伍的時間原本4個月是5週，現在統統改成8週，待訓完入伍以後，到了營區裡面沒有混編，是分開的，一年役期的是一個單位，4個月還有其他的分到各單位去，我們也避免委員剛剛講到的，幹部帶4個月、1年的兵，帶法是不一樣的，課目也不一樣，這我們會……"],["陳委員亭妃：沒錯，你們現在的訓練有分別調整制度，可是同樣在一個營區，很難那麼完整的分別跟區隔，這個是我小小的提醒跟叮嚀。"],["邱部長國正：我了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：你們自己應該也知道我在說什麼樣的部分。"],["邱部長國正：我知道。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為你們都一路這樣從基層上來，很清楚現在每一個役男心裡的想法，還有家長所擔憂的部分。我們所講的，包括剛剛伙食費的部分也是好多家長擔憂的，因為家長會跟我們反映嘛，他們問小孩子習不習慣，小孩子回來就說吃不飽，這句話在家長的心裡面其實並不是如此，他的想法會有很多小故事出來，所以我覺得這個部分我們就把它做好。"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["陳委員亭妃：把伙食做好，把未來要調整役期的SOP做好，把整個延長的配套做好，整備的現況做好，我相信家長跟役男會更加安心。謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：是，我瞭解，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","接下來請陳以信委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}}},{"id":"148941","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148941","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a7202926a2233bf09aa235bdc0b11ed89c5ff9c986728e607a03228a83d6b4086f51895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:28:03 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Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 二、審查本院民進\n黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00004"}}},{"id":"148940","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148940","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029299bcaec12270c468436ae49ab83f6e2c986728e607a0322396dcc70422ddb965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁重鈞","委員發言時間":"09:30:56 - 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09:31:24","影片長度":"00:08:40","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":520,"end_time":"2023-12-11T09:31:24+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T09:22:44+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":122,"blocks":[["林委員昶佐：（9時22分）感謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長國正：林委員好。"],["林委員昶佐：部長早安。我想關於今天的題目裡面，比較考古題的就是過去其實在委員會裡面還有在審預算的時候，我們常常討論到的都是編現比，編現比這一題其實我也跟部長就教討論過幾次，原則上當然編現比的概念就是說提高留營率、減少不適服，大概就是這兩個重點。我們這幾年可以看得到在招募率上面已經有提高，這幾年以來我相信部內的重點也都是怎麼讓少一點人離開。根據國防部內部的調查評估來講，這種留營率跟不適服的部分，部長覺得最主要的一些原因是什麼？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，很感謝委員對這問題關切，事實上國軍在招募工作方面一直沒有停止過，而且這幾年招募成效也還滿不錯的。我們想把人留下來，但有些人服役完了以後一樣要離開，大概他有第二道路，規劃好了要離開。軍中這一個團體工作，不管從待遇、從福利或平常他應該享有的這些權益，我們都在檢討、在強化，這幾年在這一方面進展很大。我們也瞭解大部分離開的原因都是他另外有職涯的規劃，有的提前離開是發覺他環境適應不良，從這幾方面我們可以得到一個定論，但是我們招募工作不會停歇。"],["林委員昶佐：當然，招募我想是一個基本的工作，我為什麼會就這一題拿出來跟部長再討論一下？因為我看到其實通常我們國防部提供的報告都還是比較廣泛性的政策，我有看到這幾年其實有一個研究統計，有就階級或地區跟部隊來看留營率的一些差別。例如說階級裡面，上兵的留營率最低，地區裡面的話大概是外島最低，部隊裡面大概是裝甲跟砲兵部隊較低。原因當然每一個人可能會見仁見智，這個報告裡面也有寫，我們看到有一些討論裡面就有不一樣的原因。但是就剛剛的這三點來講的話，上兵最低的原因，有提到可能是工作內容的重複性太高，裝甲砲兵可能是因為是主戰部隊，所以他工作跟訓練內容比較重，其他還有一些細節。我是想跟部長建議，這個其實都是在做研究的人的看法，如果我們今天真的是就階級、地域、部隊交叉分析的話，我相信部內應該會掌握到更精準的，包括可以做一些調查等等。這個部分不知道部長本來就有在做嗎？還是說未來其實可以朝這個方向再做比較細緻的，而不只是廣泛性的留營的提升？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，這個工作我們一直在做，譬如說我們的主戰兵力這個部隊，他平常工作各方面的確比較辛苦，就拿我個人來講好了，我也是一個戰鬥兵科的成員，從基層到目前，當初在基層不同單位主戰的跟預備的或者跟後勤的都有差別，所以主戰部隊這幾年為什麼我們各方面都給它強化，包含地域加給、他的兵科，有這種特種加給、專業加給，這有可以提升的方法，以後我們假如知道更多原因的話，也可以以個案來處理，也期望大家在勞逸不均的狀況下讓他得到權益，也應該要有所調整。"],["林委員昶佐：一部分可能是薪資福利的問題，像剛剛講的這個上兵可能是工作內容的重複性比較高，可能就是調整一些大家的輪派、輪替，不同的工作性質上面怎麼讓他工作起來的成就感再多一點，可能都是未來國防部可以再去做一些研擬，交叉分析以後的一些方向。因為我想也沒有辦法每一次我們的方式都是給他更高的權益、給他更多的薪水，當然更高的薪水、更高的權益是我們希望留下每一位的基本作法，但我相信這有它的極限，另外一方面是他的工作內容上面怎麼讓他有更多的成就感，這個部分我想部長應該可以再多做一些交叉分析以後來做一些調整。","然後第二個部分其實我想也就這個機會跟部長討論一下五年兵力整建計畫，因為我們每一年都會有一本新的五年兵力整建計畫，我也想就這個機會跟部長稍微討論。因為時間有限，我談我看到這兩年的一個改變，我稍微覺得我們把一些原則性的東西跟我們明年想要做的事情，把它提早拿來今年寫。其實去年有一段是說以遠距精準機動之作戰需求原則，強化防衛韌性阻滯與打亂作戰節奏，逐次削弱其犯臺能力而無法速戰速決。我覺得這就是一個滿清楚的原則性、策略性的描述，就是我們這5年要做的方向是這樣。今年有一段我特別看到，因為我稍微比較，如果只是字面上有一些修改，之乎者也的修改，那就沒有什麼關係，但其實今年把剛剛後面那一段取消，後面那一段的強化防衛韌性阻滯與打亂作戰節奏，逐次削弱其犯臺能力而無法速戰速決，有一部分可能可以放在今年新的內容裡面，例如強化作戰韌性、嚇阻敵之入侵，大概剛剛講的這幾句可能有一些可以放進去。但是我覺得要讓對方無法速戰速決這一句，它就是一個策略性的，它並不只是句子上面的調整而已，我們今年改成提升遠距、精準、機動、無人化及智慧，這部分反而比較像是執行面、比較像是細部的。我個人會覺得是不是因為我們接著要採買，尤其明年要籌建新的C4ISR的指管系統，因為我們知道明年要買什麼，所以把它放進來作為今年的策略描述，我可以理解這樣的作法，但我覺得不一定有這個必要，因為我們拿掉這個速戰速決後，我不太相信我們真的會把這個策略性做大的調整，反而會把這個五年兵力計畫的宏觀性以及它具體的大方向給縮小了，好像變成只是我們明年要買什麼，所以這部分是不是部長可以先稍微回應一下？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我們國軍有十年建軍構想、五年兵力整建計畫，每一年都有一個備戰計畫，它這個五年兵整不是到五年才修，剛剛委員也講到，每一年我們都還要再調整，所以委員剛剛提的建議我們也會把它納入以後調整的方向。但誠如剛剛委員也有講到很多執行面的問題，我們今年既然講出來，我們的的確確能夠做到，這是我們目前有特別強化的地方，以後也會把握這個原則來做。"],["林委員昶佐：要不然就是隔年修改今年的東西裡面比較關於策略性的，例如速戰速決不見了，是不是我們真的沒有要做這件事？這個就可以稍微再解釋一下。"],["邱部長國正：我瞭解。"],["林委員昶佐：要不然就是看要怎麼把它融入新的描述裡，因為如果只是執行面或是字面上的一些調整，其實那個都沒有差嘛，就是看你作文怎麼寫的差別而已、字句的差別，但如果有一個比較像是策略性的那一整句不見，我不知道外面會怎麼想，我在看報告的時候，我總會覺得這個拿掉的話要解釋清楚，不然就可能只是把它調整成一個執行面的而已，這個部分請部長參考，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：是，我瞭解，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。接下來請陳亭妃委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}}},{"id":"148938","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148938","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a7202918057e7093d5abdc8436ae49ab83f6e2c986728e607a0322d5bbab985b2c25535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:21:17 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- 09:27:56","影片長度":"00:11:38","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回顧與展望（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【12月11日及13日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-20"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":698,"end_time":"2023-12-11T09:27:56+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T09:16:18+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":100,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時16分）謝謝主席，請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委上台備詢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["林委員德福：主委早。我請教主委，有關上個禮拜四財金公司112年度金融資訊系統年會的專題演講，央行的副總裁朱美麗表示數位貨幣CBDC可能會成為未來整個貨幣體系的核心，央行正審視評估、探索發行數位貨幣的可能性。我請教黃主委，你認為國內數位貨幣發行的可能性高或不高？"],["黃主任委員天牧：如果是央行的CBDC的話，這個可能要尊重中央銀行的意見。"],["林委員德福：以央行目前的整個研究規劃速度，主委，金管會要無縫接軌數位貨幣發行後的相關業務，你認為有沒有困難？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，關於CBDC的發行，國際間是有一些央行在處理，但是國內的央行怎麼做？目前來講，我們沒有看到相關的規劃。"],["林委員德福：主委，數位貨幣一旦推行，你認為需不需要擴大普及率？"],["黃主任委員天牧：當然，既然要用央行數位貨幣，表示它是一個通貨，當然希望能夠在不同的場域都能夠使用。"],["林委員德福：主委，因為前行政院長陳冲也說，預計2028年全世界主要先進國家都將使用CBDC，他認為包括金管會、央行、數位部等三大機關，到目前為止仍在互踢皮球，這是橫向聯繫的失靈，變成三個和尚沒水喝。那我請教主委，你認為他說的是不是事實？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實中央銀行對於數位央行貨幣的研究，以我的瞭解是一直在進行，除了朱副總裁的報告之外，前兩年楊總裁也有在其他的場合做過一些報告，我覺得這部分是快、是慢，我不便做評論，但是……"],["林委員德福：你認為我們應不應該要未雨綢繆、事前來做一些規劃？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，其實各國也都討論到一些CBDC的得失優劣，我覺得這個部分央行還是主政單位，因為關於貨幣的發行，我想監理機關這邊不能越俎代庖去替央行決定。"],["林委員德福：那我請教，針對數位貨幣的推動，金管會目前的推動有沒有哪些準備工作？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們目前沒有，誠如剛才跟委員報告的，央行如果有規劃需要去配合的事項，央行會特別跟我們做溝通，目前這部分並沒有具體的看到。"],["林委員德福：主委，因為央行朱副總裁說，金融數位化已經是不可逆，如果未來決定導入數位貨幣應避免去金融中介化，而且與其他的支付工具並存，確保互通性，並考慮它的效率性及支持創新，那我請問主委，請你說明國內導入數位貨幣與金融中介化之間到底有沒有什麼關聯性？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我不太瞭解這個論述後面的背景，我還是要跟委員報告，央行數位貨幣完全是貨幣另外一種形式的發行，這是屬於中央銀行的權責。"],["林委員德福：主委，國內數位貨幣為什麼要有金融中介的必要性，你有什麼看法？"],["黃主任委員天牧：跟委員報告，我個人不太瞭解後面論述的意義是什麼，因為金融中介是金融機構吸收社會大眾資金再貸放給需要資金的企業跟個人，那CBDC是屬於央行發行的、代表政府主權性質的電子貨幣，我不太瞭解後面的論述，是不是容我瞭解之後再跟您報告？"],["林委員德福：好，那我請教，國內整個環境適合哪種模式來操作？因為金融中介通常有四個主要功能，像設定價格和清算價格；第二就是提供流動性以及即時性；第三是溝通賣方和買方；第四個就是保證和監控的質量。主委，數位貨幣因為透過金融中介的這種方式達到使用的目的，請問以目前整個國內行業中，哪些適合從事金融中介的業務，你認為呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想CBDC就是一種央行發行、代表主權性質的通貨，原則上如果現鈔可以用的地方，當然希望CBDC都可以用，但是我不曉得央行現在的規劃如何，所以我沒辦法進一步跟您報告，是不是容許我會後瞭解之後再跟您報告？"],["林委員德福：主委，因為有學者一直認為，國家數位貨幣由中央銀行來發行，在金融電子化的時代下，現金將會被取代，對民眾來說，要做好市場買賣、夜市小吃等等這些小額支付的店家不收現鈔的支付環境，請問主委，你認為在臺灣CBDC與其他支付並存的情況下，到底應該是數位貨幣會全面取代現金，還是採用多方式的貨幣支付環境會比較可能？"],["黃主任委員天牧：首先，這還是央行的整體規劃，我不太瞭解它的規劃；第二個，即便不談央行CBDC，談我們現在金管會推的一個儘量降低現金使用的方案，並沒有完全剝奪民眾……就希望只是鼓勵大家多使用非現金的方式交易，並沒有讓民眾使用現金的機會被剝奪，我想這應該是非常重要的，因為很多弱勢的民眾不見得習慣使用電子方式的交易，還是要給他機會、讓他能夠使用現金交易。"],["林委員德福：主委，因為目前央行定位數位貨幣的傾向立場，金融中介機構在間接金融架構中扮演著資金樞紐的一個角色，透過金融中介機構的運作，可有效來降低資訊不對稱所引起的逆向選擇與道德風險問題，解決資金流通的阻礙，故在市場上大部分資金融通均透過金融中介機構。我請問主委，現在整個貨幣銀行的所有措施會一體適用在數位貨幣上嗎？你的看法呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個還是央行的整個規劃，我們沒有看到。不過委員您剛才也提到了，其實每個國家對CBDC都有不同的討論，美國也有這方面的討論，有一派人也擔心使用電子央行數位貨幣之後，是不是我的使用交易都被看到？這個也許也有人顧慮。"],["林委員德福：主委，例如說像數位貨幣有無銀行利息的產生、要不要規範銀行的管理費用、未來數位貨幣會不會與國際間的數位貨幣同步接軌，制度如果不同，你認為到底有沒有相互流通的可行方式？有沒有？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個應該還是都要看……我的瞭解，央行還在規劃中啦！目前我真的不太知道它具體的規劃，實在沒有辦法跟委員報告，很抱歉。"],["林委員德福：我也希望主委你這邊應該要多去深入瞭解。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們會在央行同意的範圍之內跟它多請教。"],["林委員德福：好，最後一個議題，主委，美元升息、新臺幣貶值、保費收入衰退等三大不利，讓壽險資金持續淨流出，今年10月中有8個月保險總給付大於保費的收入，累計淨流出1,641億元，續創史上同期的最大量。我請問主委，壽險持續淨流出會不會發生市場流動性危機或風險？會不會？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，您垂詢的問題非常重要，我在這邊跟您報告，我想保險公司目前來講不會有流動性的問題，流動性也不是用保費支出跟收入的缺額去算，因為保險業本身帳上就有很多其他流動性的資產可以隨時去運用，目前是沒有，而且我們會嚴格觀察整個的趨勢。"],["林委員德福：因為目前壽險還是存在繼續淨流出的危機，我請問主委，對於明年的整個狀況，你怎麼看？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們在前兩個禮拜已經提升了相關保險商品的責任準備金利率，應該對於保費的降低有一定程度的影響，所以這個部分可能也會提升明年對保險商品的買氣。"],["林委員德福：你認為像這些壽險業又要怎麼樣來解決淨流出的危機呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想就做好本身流動性的管理，然後在商品的銷售上面銷售更符合民眾需要，並且符合接軌需要的商品。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔！好，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請吳秉叡吳委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open 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,國防學士班如於就學期間辦理退訓,將同步上師所屬學校的學籍,以致影響學生報考的意願。"},{"start":2688.2,"end":2715.177,"text":"國防學士班與ROTC班隊比較說明,國防學士班及ROTC學生在學期間,均由國防部全額補助學雜費,每月發給生活費一萬兩千元及每學期文具費五千元,並合約每年撥付合作大學招生作業費,如符合開設教育中心,則再支付辦班作業費及人員委辦費。國防學士班與ROTC班隊分析比較如下表。"},{"start":2716.623,"end":2741.312,"text":"兩種班對主要的差異在招生緣額上國防學士班是由各合作大學獨立招生每校緣額失緣為113年將停止招生ROTC則依各單位需求訂定招生緣額113年招生緣額為400元在招生對象上國防學士班招收高中值應屆畢業生ROTC所招募的則是大學一年級的學生"},{"start":2742.694,"end":2757.383,"text":"在學籍上,國防學士班退訓學生將上司學校的學籍,而ROTC退訓學生仍保有學校學籍,請過次業。在畢業派職上,國防學士班優先以專業領域派職,ROTC則是以戰鬥及戰鬥資源官科派職為主。"},{"start":2762.867,"end":2772.812,"text":"至於在議期方面兩者都是服預備軍官議期五年在補助經費方面有關補助項目及金額兩者均相同相關資料請委員參閱"},{"start":2775.134,"end":2791.89,"text":"今統計國防學士班一百零八至一百一十二年即支付經費一千六百七十八萬元若明年停止招生後因應再訓學生及教育中心開班仍需支付一千零七十三萬元有關國防學士班補助經費統計如下表請參閱軍校政綺班及專業軍官班隊招生成效"},{"start":2800.751,"end":2820.856,"text":"上述三種招生管道近五年平均招貨率均達招募目標﹐將持續強化招生以補充出關人力需求。各軍官班對108至102年招生成效統計如下表,其中軍校正期班平均招貨率達103%,ROTC平均招貨率達135%,專業預備軍官班招貨率達109%,後續作為"},{"start":2830.938,"end":2850.131,"text":"經評估國防學士班招生成效及投資效益均無法滿足需求明年起將停辦各大學在校學生均可經由大學儲備軍官訓練團招生管道加入國軍行列二、國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為"},{"start":2851.815,"end":2872.441,"text":"國防部秉持目標管理、節點管制的原則﹐持續要求各單位致力於完善招募編組﹐深耕校園與林理宣傳﹐運用媒體宣傳及擴大招募宣導等精進作為﹐其藉深入校園林理及媒體宣傳等多元招募管道穩定人力的來源與素質﹐皆予請參閱。"},{"start":2878.239,"end":2905.473,"text":"繼續就《國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條修正案》實施報告大院黨團及委員提案《國防產業發展條例》以下稱本條例第十條及第十九條修正案說明如下一、立法目的為有效結合政府與民間力量發展國防產業達成國內研發產製維修武器裝備之目標以落實國防自主特制定本條例"},{"start":2907.079,"end":2931.497,"text":"二、大院黨團及委員提案現行國防法規定武器裝備向外採購時應落實技術轉移另外提升及滿足國家防衛需求應強化國防產業國際合作並積極採用靈活多元供應策略避免居需關鍵零組件和原料來源遭受壟斷原修正本條例第十條及第十九條黨團及委員提案內容如下"},{"start":2933.717,"end":2962.062,"text":"中國國民黨黨團提案將本條例第十條第一項修正為主管機關及經濟部,應鼓勵外國廠商與合格廠商進行產業合作與相互投資,並落實技術轉移。修正委的二十二位委員提案修正本條例第十條及第十九條條文,其中第十條第一項修正為主管機關及經濟部,應鼓勵外國廠商與合格廠商進行產業合作與相互投資,並落實技術轉移。"},{"start":2964.98,"end":2986.386,"text":"第十九條第一項修正為列管軍品研發、產製、維修之關鍵零組件及原料不得來自大陸地區、香港、港澳或其人民、法人、團體、其他機構與第三地區投資之法人、機構或團體但因特殊需要經主管機關會商、相關機關同意者不在此限。三、國防部意見"},{"start":2988.41,"end":3010.211,"text":"一、第十條第一項國民黨黨團及邱志偉等22位委員均提案於第十條第一項增加落實技術轉移文字查本條例第二條第二項規定主辦機關為國防部、經濟部及國科會同時為強化國防自主能量提升產業技術已於國防法明定落實記者之規範"},{"start":3011.397,"end":3029.957,"text":"令本條例主辦機關經濟部亦以產業發展的角度協助廠商爭取國際合作商機並配合工業合作需求促請外商與國內業者推動整體的合作有鑒於現行的法制面與執行面具有涵蓋產業合作及技術移轉相關工作推動並無摯愛,原建議維持現行條文"},{"start":3034.025,"end":3047.342,"text":"而第十九條第一項,邱志偉等二十二位委員提案將原文經主管機關會商其他主辦機關同意者修正為經主管機關會商相關機關同意者"},{"start":3048.786,"end":3071.645,"text":"由於本條例主辦機關之一的經濟部長理貨品輸出路管理及貿易安全管控等事項有關軍需關鍵零組件及原料產地來源限制之例外規定如因特殊需要需向陸港澳進行採購經本部會商經濟部及國科會由經濟部依進出口貿易管理權責徵詢貨品業管部會意見後來辦理審查"},{"start":3075.448,"end":3085.512,"text":"現行作法有助於事權統一及簡化廠商申請作業流程,原建議維持現行條文,皆予請參閱。以上報告,敬請各位委員知道。"},{"start":3104.586,"end":3123.114,"text":"現在我們開始詢答本委員會的委員詢答時間6加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分以前發言截止登記然後提案的也是10點30分截止登記11點處理提案那現在先請林昶佐委員詢答"},{"start":3131.943,"end":3132.665,"text":"感謝主席。我們請部長。請"},{"start":3143.815,"end":3162.443,"text":"部長早安那我想關於今天的題目裡面比較考古題的也就是過去其實在委員會裡面還有在審預算的時候我們常常討論到的都是邊線筆啦那邊線筆這一題其實我也跟部長舊教討論過幾次那原則上當然邊線筆的概念就是說這個"},{"start":3165.204,"end":3189.003,"text":"提高流營率、減少不適服這大概就是這兩個重點所以我們這幾年可以看得到在招募率上面已經有提高所以這幾年以來我相信部內的重點也都是怎麼讓少一點人離開所以根據國防部內部的調查評估來講這種流營率跟不適服的部分部長覺得最主要的一些原因是什麼?"},{"start":3190.08,"end":3205.355,"text":"我跟委員報告,很感謝委員對這個問題關切。事實上國軍在招募工作方面一直沒有停止過,而且這幾年招募成效也還蠻不錯的。但我們只要把人留下來,但有些人他到服役完了以後,他一樣要離開。"},{"start":3206.676,"end":3227.853,"text":"大概都是他有他第二道路規劃好的,要離開。所以我們當然要去講說軍中這個等於團體工作,不管從待遇、從福利或平常他應該享有的權益,我們都在檢討、在強化。這幾年在這一方面進展很大。"},{"start":3228.553,"end":3248.344,"text":"但是我們也了解,大部分的原因他離開的,都是他另外有下這個規劃。有些提前離開的,但是他發覺他的環境適應不良。但從這幾方面我們可以得到一個定論,但是我們這個招募工作不會停歇。當然當然,招募我想這個是一個基本的工作。"},{"start":3250.025,"end":3268.064,"text":"我為什麼會就這一題拿出來跟部長再討論一下因為我看到其實通常我們國防部提供的報告都還是比較廣泛性的政策那我有看到這幾年其實有一個研究的統計它是有就階級或地區跟部隊來看說這個流盈率的一些差別"},{"start":3268.464,"end":3286.467,"text":"例如說階級裡面上兵的流行率最低,地區裡面的話大概是外島最低,部隊裡面大概是裝甲跟炮兵部隊較低。原因當然每一個人可能會見仁見智,這一個報告裡面有寫,我們有看到有一些討論裡面就有不一樣的原因,但是"},{"start":3287.768,"end":3309.455,"text":"就剛剛的這三點來講的話大概上兵最低是有提到說可能是工作內容的重複性太高那裝甲炮兵可能是因為是主戰部隊所以他工作跟訓練內容比較重那其他還有一些細節所以我其實是想跟部長建議啦齁這個其實都是在做研究的人他的看法"},{"start":3309.835,"end":3329.358,"text":"當然我相信如果我們今天真的是就這個階級地域部隊交叉分析的話,我相信部內應該會掌握到更精準的。對,那包括可以做一些調查等等。所以這個部分不知道部長本來就有在做嗎?還是說未來其實可以朝這個方向在做比較細緻,而不只是廣泛性的這個流營的提升?"},{"start":3329.798,"end":3344.691,"text":"國防委員報告,這個工作我們一直在做,譬如說我們在主戰兵力部隊,他平常工作各方面的確比較辛苦。就拿我個人來講好了,我也是一個戰鬥兵科的成員,從基層到目前,我對當初在基層"},{"start":3345.992,"end":3360.444,"text":"不同單位主戰的跟預備的或者跟後勤的都有差別所以主戰部隊這幾年為什麼我們各方面都給他做一個強化包含地域家級他的兵科有這種特種家級專業家級"},{"start":3362.325,"end":3363.206,"text":"一部分可能是薪資、福利的問題"},{"start":3379.155,"end":3379.235,"text":"二、審查本院"},{"start":3404.445,"end":3424.582,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":3424.702,"end":3442.239,"text":"然後第二個部分其實我想也就這個機會跟部長討論一下五年兵力整建計畫因為我們其實每一年都會有一本新的五年兵力整建計畫我也想就這個機會跟部長稍微討論因為時間有限我把我看到這兩年的一個改變"},{"start":3444.057,"end":3467.12,"text":"我稍微覺得就是我們把一些原則性的東西跟我們明年想要做的事情就把它提早拿來做紀念寫因為其實去年有一段是說以遠距精準機動之作戰需求原則強化防衛韌性組織與打亂作戰節奏逐次削弱其泛談能力而無法速戰速決我想這個就是比較"},{"start":3468.201,"end":3488.603,"text":"我覺得這就是一個蠻清楚的一個原則性、策略性的一個描述就是說我們的這五年要做的一個方向是這樣那今年有一段我看到我特別看到因為我稍微比較就是說如果只是字面上的有一些修改知乎則也的修改那就沒有什麼關係但其實今年把這個"},{"start":3489.724,"end":3512.722,"text":"剛剛後面那一段取消,後面那一段的強化防衛韌性組織與打亂作戰節奏,逐次削弱其範圍能力而無法速戰速決,有一部分可能可以放在今年新的這個內容裡面,例如說強化作戰韌性,嚇阻敵之入侵,這幾句大概剛剛講的可能有一些可以放進去,但是我覺得"},{"start":3514.195,"end":3529.456,"text":"要讓對方無法速戰速決的這一句啊,它就是一個策略性的。它並不是只是一個句子上面的調整而已。那我們改成,今年改成是提升遠距、精準、機動、無人化及智慧。"},{"start":3531.156,"end":3554.479,"text":"這個部分反而是比較像是執行面比較像是細部的我個人會覺得是不是因為我們接著要採買尤其明年要籌建新的這個C4ISR的指管系統所以我們知道明年要買什麼那把它放在今年作為這個策略裡面描述我可以理解這樣做啦但其實我覺得不一定有這個必要因為我們拿掉這個速戰速決"},{"start":3556.67,"end":3563.971,"text":"我不太相信我們真的會有把這個策略性做一個大的調整反而會讓這個五年的兵力計畫"},{"start":3565.799,"end":3592.286,"text":"的這個宏觀性以及他五年的一個具體的一個大的方向上面把它變成縮小了變成好像只是我們明年要買什麼所以這部分我覺得是不是部長可以先稍微回應一下我跟委員報告我們國軍有十年現行共享五年兵力整建跟每一年都有一個備戰計畫他這個不講五年兵整我們就到五年才修每一年剛剛委員也點到每一年我們都在調"},{"start":3593.546,"end":3613.216,"text":"委員提出建議,我們也會把它納入以後調整的一個方向。但陳副綱委員有講到,很多執行面的問題,我們也希望講說今年既然講出來,我們的的確能做到。我想這個是我們目前比較特別、比較強化的地方,以後也會把握這個原則來做。"},{"start":3613.456,"end":3637.05,"text":"要不然就是說,隔年修改今年的東西裡面比較關於策略性的,例如說速戰速決不見了,是不是我們真的沒有要做這件事,這個就可以稍微再解釋一下,要不然就是把它怎麼融入新的描述裡,因為如果只是執行面或是字面上的一些調整,其實那個都沒有差嘛,那就是看你作文怎麼寫的差別而已,字句的差別,但如果有一個比較像是策略性的那一整句不見齁,"},{"start":3637.91,"end":3638.331,"text":"接下來請陳廷飛委員發言"},{"start":3665.455,"end":3668.277,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長。村委員好。部長好。部長,我想請問一下,就是說我們的伙食費,其實伙食費,說真的我們每年都是有調整,我們每年都有調整,可是那個幅度,"},{"start":3691.82,"end":3699.29,"text":"我今天要跟你討論的要麻煩部長就是說那個幅度我們物價其實這幾年真的飆漲的比較快"},{"start":3700.345,"end":3728.465,"text":"雖然每年都有調整我們現在基本上112年度每位士兵每個月的伙食費用大概是2913元也就每一個人平均一天的伙食費用是97.1一餐大約是32.3元這個是我從你們的數字裡面去分析出來的然後呢其實他每天的三餐吃得到的費用基本上"},{"start":3729.206,"end":3751.664,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":3751.764,"end":3776.775,"text":"我覺得大家在受訓當中這些我們的藝男說真的他們都是剛好又要受訓然後又在發育反正很多的狀況其實我想他是需要更多的一些補充所以這個部分雖然我必須強調我們每年都有調整"},{"start":3778.001,"end":3778.141,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":3795.084,"end":3820.075,"text":"這個思考的方向是,我很感激委員注意到這一塊事實上國軍的火稅一般聽到有一個月三千不到沒有錯九十多塊錢一百塊不到要吃三餐外面是難以想像的但國軍辦火燒有個要領我們第一個人員有多少人起火我們把他管制住可能有100個人的費用可能當天假日的時候只留了一半人"},{"start":3820.715,"end":3848.091,"text":"但這個錢一樣是投注在裡面的,這是第一個。第二個,我們工本費,就人員的運作費用啊,這可以節約。所以早期講說一些火防兵做支部隊服役的人,後來就好像強調不能這樣子,他這個服役歸服役,火防要從外包啊,所以這個錢就增加。但我們國民調整的方法說,剛剛委員講到逐年增加,再怎麼追追不到,但半火是個要領。"},{"start":3848.831,"end":3865.145,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":3865.145,"end":3867.806,"text":"現在目前的物價指數隨時去做調整"},{"start":3894.68,"end":3919.525,"text":"這樣子的家長也會比較安心一點所以這個部分再麻煩那第二個部分就是說我們現在兵役延長的配套還有準備現況現在準備的如何我跟委員報告去年從公佈以後設計公佈之前我有很多的專案編署已經編成了我跟他們講說你公告要一年落實明年1月1號開始但這一年當中"},{"start":3920.525,"end":3948.973,"text":"我們對各營區從住到訓這些場地都不斷地在那邊在檢查而且驗證那有些地方已經有教招部隊在那邊用了這將來也是我們這個要準備訓練當中的一環所以我跟委員報告在同步在做而且我們還蠻有把握就明年因為我們初步了解大概會招待九千多人而且第一季的大概將六百個左右"},{"start":3949.753,"end":3955.538,"text":"一月份我們要招收我們這些一年一期的這個新兵的部分第一批的部分你預計是多少人"},{"start":3973.194,"end":3989.692,"text":"大概600人左右那原本有一些營區我們可能本來是考慮到7月才要接這一年期的新兵但是有些營區好像往前提早了是不是那提前因為他平常也可以住用"},{"start":3990.421,"end":4013.92,"text":"沒有但是這個要比較小心的部分就是說因為如果在這個營區當中有四個月役期的兵有一年役期的兵我覺得這個部分我們要做一個調整我覺得一年役期的兵就歸一年役期的兵四個月役期的兵就歸四個月役期的兵因為這個他們的一個生活做起其實會有所不同"},{"start":4015.45,"end":4031.239,"text":"對,會有所不同。所以在作息有所不同的話,其實為了在大家整個在訓練過程會比較順遂,我覺得這個思考的邏輯一定要注意。這個是其實是我們在"},{"start":4032.299,"end":4058.148,"text":"當中聽很多的家長的建議就是說怎麼樣把未來因為我看了資料確實是好像有一些提早就是說有時候四年這個在訓練營區當中有四年四個月的這個一年一年的一年但他們在整個包括在訓練的作業其實是完全不同的"},{"start":4059.536,"end":4079.373,"text":"這個真的要提醒說怎麼樣把這個SOP做好那我的建議是就是一年因為我們營區其實就像部長所說的我們其實準備從我們開始決定要去延長一年疫情的時候我們就已經有做好一些準備了"},{"start":4079.974,"end":4109.974,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4110.154,"end":4135.849,"text":"最近好像有做調整好像在營區當中有做調整但我覺得還是有些比較不妥的地方因為我的調資料我有看到所以這個部分部長是不是有可能做一下這個重新的檢討把SOP訂好可能會讓我們的訓練會更完整讓所有藝男的整個心情調整會更好"},{"start":4136.189,"end":4164.586,"text":"所以我跟委員報一個很粗略去講說基本上明年開始入伍的時間原本四個月是五週嘛現在通通改成八週但以後訓完入伍以後呢到了營區裡面它是沒有分別是分開的一年一期的是一個單位四個月的還是其他分到各個單位去我們也避免啊比如委員剛剛講到幹部一帶有四個月的有一年的這帶法是不一樣的課目也不一樣"},{"start":4164.926,"end":4179.501,"text":"可是你在同一個營區沒錯你們現在的訓練有做分別制度的一個調整可是同樣在一個營區很難去做那麼完整的分別跟區隔"},{"start":4180.809,"end":4200.003,"text":"這個是我小小的提醒跟叮嚀應該你們自己也知道我在說什麼樣的一個部分因為你們都這樣一路這樣子從基層上來很清楚現在每一個藝能清理的想法還有家長所擔憂的部分所以我們所講包括剛剛這個伙食費的部分也是好多個家長因為家長會跟我們反映嘛說他們問小孩子習不習慣小孩子回來說"},{"start":4210.43,"end":4212.59,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":4241.681,"end":4245.364,"text":"謝謝陳委員。接下來請陳以信委員巡檔。謝謝昭偉。是不是請邱部長。邱部長請。"},{"start":4274.389,"end":4292.266,"text":"部長早安喔,你是陸軍出身嘛對不對?你知不知道AR-15的步槍?AR-15?那可能很早期的吧?很早期喔?那你有沒有用過?你沒打?這一款步槍,你知不知道這一款步槍一分鐘可以打多少子彈?"},{"start":4293.697,"end":4295.538,"text":"上個禮拜在美國總統的共和黨初選辯論裡面幾位總統候選人都談到台灣問題"},{"start":4317.357,"end":4340.479,"text":"當然他們都對於美國要協助台灣做防衛都有一致的看法但其中也有一位候選人他就表示要怎麼樣保護台灣他認為美國步槍協會應該要到台灣設分處而且應該要大量提供AR-15的自動步槍給台灣每一個人讓他們用AR-15的步槍來保護"},{"start":4341.92,"end":4349.433,"text":"自己部長你對於美國總統候選這樣的一個論點你身為我們的國防部長你是什麼樣的一個立場"},{"start":4350.305,"end":4373.931,"text":"我跟委員報告這一題就有的一測到選舉的話有點敏感但我對這種問題看法講說基本上一個國家他是以國防的那個能力要自己來做一個防衛不能夠仰賴其他其他國家都要有所幫助我們當然樂見但這個幫助未必要像剛剛委員講的到台灣來成立一個什麼俱樂部還提供什麼槍支"},{"start":4374.531,"end":4375.792,"text":"而不是俱樂部,它的步槍協會其實是廣發步槍的。"},{"start":4394.233,"end":4423.107,"text":"各位,我們說的不叫戰力,要靠外援拿到才有的。我不認為它是個戰力。部長,我對你的回答其實不甚滿意。為什麼?因為,當然你今天要求我們自己國軍的正規軍力的兵力來面對台防衛作戰。但是現在廣發步槍給每一個人,甚至之前還有美國前國安顧問認為要廣設次增飛彈在每個派出所,必要的時候通通拿出來全民接兵。"},{"start":4424.329,"end":4449.071,"text":"部長全民接兵是不是你的國防政策你要從這個角度來思考啊今天並不是說今天你說今天拿把槍來拿個飛彈來人民可以用那這個不是你們要的難道你希望全民接兵然後全民用用這個在這種情況之下是甚至跟戰爭法跟國際法是有所有所問題的我跟委員報告"},{"start":4449.952,"end":4474.304,"text":"所以全民接兵在我的界定啊就是全民接受過這種訓練以後他最起碼知道如何自我防衛這個當然是全民國防啊對全民國防跟全民接兵是不一樣的啦全民接兵的話有點浮誘大家通常要當兵我不做這個解讀他現在是每人一把自動步槍每個人都可以拿著自爭飛彈就開始打"},{"start":4476.118,"end":4505.698,"text":"我跟委員報告,這是一個提議。我們想說有很多意見。我就說是不是你國防政策嘛。身為部長你就說這是不是你的國防政策。臺灣的國防政策才不該如此。我們沒有,我們沒有這種政策。不是你的國防政策嘛。這不是臺灣的國防政策。我就是要你嚴格表達這樣的一個立場嘛。我現在不知道委員要怎樣。我說美國人有很多的關心,但是不切實際。全民皆兵每個人拿一把步槍,拿到自治分站就能射。這不是我們台海防衛作戰的構想。我們至少國家要把這個立場講清楚。"},{"start":4506.458,"end":4530.236,"text":"但我現在要進到下一個問題就是說我們現在的確我們在國防整備上面不只全民國防加強我們明年的這個國軍的訓練也都增加了那不只我們增加了海岸守備旅我們增加了後備旅那現在我們也看到上面寫說入伍的時候要增加震撼教育那我要問這個震撼教育什麼時候開始你要怎麼進行"},{"start":4531.364,"end":4549.181,"text":"事實上我跟委員現在已經在做了,現在四個月一期,他們也在做。也在做震撼教育嗎?現在也有震撼教育?有在做。然後是多少的時間,然後多少的彈藥在那個地方?多震撼?他在這個期末要入武完畢之前,每個兵都要經過這個訓練。阿現在這個訓練是怎麼樣?多長?彈藥多少?有多震撼?跟你前一不一樣。"},{"start":4556.209,"end":4580.72,"text":"跟委員報告震撼教育他等於說是一個戰鬥綜合教練的演練他是以模擬實戰的狀況他是以這個TNT的爆破還有機槍的空爆彈來模擬的狀況這個我都做過我知道我在問你量現在這個彈藥跟過去是比較少還是比較多還是一樣然後這中間大概多長時間要多長有多震撼嘛"},{"start":4582.059,"end":4594.111,"text":"我要問的是這個,你們不是都規劃好而且開始進行嗎?對,我們今年已經在實施震撼教練了。細節你都不知道就對了。第一個他沒有實施實彈,他是以機槍的空炮彈還有TNT模擬在戰場的一個景況。"},{"start":4604.12,"end":4628.933,"text":"那長度要多長?長度的話一到場地的話我們會有一個標準在這邊他是以障礙物的設置還有狀況的處置的相似還有距離來做一個規劃你講的都太模糊了我要求你們書面上來跟我們做說明這到底是怎麼樣進行然後在我們現在這一種震撼教育非常重要就是安全我們不希望在非戰爭時期有任何的傷亡"},{"start":4630.074,"end":4657.833,"text":"那這種訓練場是在專有的訓練場上面訓練嗎?還是說今天在每個部隊都可以進行?那你現在全國有多少座訓練這個教練場?每一個新訓單位都有。每一個新訓單位都有?總數多少?一個概略是14座。14座?所以他們進行的時候都要在這個教練場?他們要進行的時候一定要在教練場,而且有相關的防護規定的要求。"},{"start":4660.174,"end":4686.924,"text":"除了這一個新兵的震撼教育,那之前應該會有一些安全上面的一個教育、安全上面的一個指導吧?這個應該都會做吧?報完都有,我們在實施之前幹部也要做推演,還有跟這個官兵,都要測驗的官兵,都要做相關的案例規律。我希望你們這邊,部長,你們做一個書面上面的說明好不好?提交本委員會,大家來做參考。瞭解你們這個震撼教育新的做法要怎麼做好不好?好瞭解。我是問部長,部長好不好?"},{"start":4687.504,"end":4704.193,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們這樣好不好,我們以圖示在這個做之前我們要做哪一個工作在一張圖上表達清楚一個清楚的書面報告跟本委員說明接著我要再問就是說你這個明年要成立我知道你們在"},{"start":4705.574,"end":4716.646,"text":"陸軍有海岸守備旅,後備指揮部也有後備旅,然後憲兵也有守衛營。明年新增有多少的邊層要邊層?海岸守備這些的?有多少?海岸守備"},{"start":4721.102,"end":4733.011,"text":"公務員報告,這個步兵的守備旅他是有11個守備旅那他是按照期程來一直到117年還有分陸續的明年要編成幾個"},{"start":4736.715,"end":4739.657,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":4752.486,"end":4752.766,"text":"最後我再問部長"},{"start":4777.848,"end":4800.543,"text":"我要求就是說這個要跟我們來做說明好不好?到底你這個編程怎樣?現在我要再問的就是說最後一個問題3加1彈性休業方案我們上個會期有討論過我們有討論之前吧那這個大學3加1的這個彈性休業方案目前有多少人申請?有多少大學配合?你上來講吧"},{"start":4803.206,"end":4826.178,"text":"目前有五位目前只有五位是三加一彈性修正方案目前只有五位是我們第一梯是大四大廢周章辦到現在只有五位是那為什麼只有五位因為這個設計不良就像我們當初說的有很多的問題大學很難以配合個人很難以配合是不是這樣子只有五位三加一彈性修正方案只有五位"},{"start":4827.216,"end":4849.839,"text":"報告委員跟委員報告當初那個教育部在徵詢意願的時候有46位學生他表達有意願但目前提出實際提出申請的只有五位那後續應該陸續可能他們會會是他們需要提出申請會申請就會申請不會申請就不會申請而且跟委員報告這個他的我要問你現在問題在哪裡我們當初你們在提出來的時候我們就舉出很多問題了我那時候就提出說這樣的一個做法"},{"start":4850.259,"end":4877.506,"text":"大學修業大量的一個減少而且它裡面有必修什麼黨來黨去學校會不會為了你又加開暑休這些東西都很麻煩而且這種東西男性女性還不一樣如果大學真的三年可以念完乾脆就很多人都可以申請三年念完嘛而又不是只有當兵的人才可以三年念完我當時都舉出很多問題了那現在我們就看只有五個申請所以我才問你那現在問題你們現在開始去做了你們問題在哪裡咧回答一下吧部長"},{"start":4878.96,"end":4905.435,"text":"教育部教育部來跟委員報告教育部這邊做個說明當然我們就有頒布那個指引那主要就是希望同學在不影響他畢業的一個時間的情況下就剛才委員所講的三加一所以我們會給他更多的一個修業彈性比如說他原來在學習有多少學校配合這很難啊你現在一下要四年擠成三年然後大家為了你要當兵的這幾個人去調學程當然那麼簡單你現在就五個人"},{"start":4906.075,"end":4906.436,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":4921.676,"end":4945.353,"text":"各位委員報告,現在之前我們就有跟在6月頒布指引後,7月就已經跟學校做說明會,讓學校在這個學期,就是今年9月10號開始這個學期,把相關的學責、教務章程都已經做修正,包括剛才講的說,增加學期當中的學位的學分數,包括屬修或者是跨校可以來選修等等。我問你現在這五個學生分布在幾個學校?"},{"start":4946.568,"end":4962.222,"text":"跟委員報告目前因為是在尊重學生的意願的情況下大概目前有7個學校有46個學生來申請不是我們剛剛講只有5個申請嘛你的訊息比國防部還要落後他剛剛就說5個而已了46個是報名但是只有5個申請啊"},{"start":4967.605,"end":4995.393,"text":"現在剛才呃,國防部說目前已經有,就是五個是實際上提出來,因為他們...對啊,所以是前面只是表達一個意願,但是現在只有五個實際提出來,只有這五個人的學校要去為他們做調整嗎?呃不是,所有的學校都要先做一個,事先做一個調整以因應...那我問你現在這些學校有多少學校做調整啊?現在我們幾乎大部分的學校都已經做完調整了。那只是把這個命令,這個準則公佈啊,他其他課程都有做調整嗎?對,都要做相應的調整。不是都要做,都做了嗎?"},{"start":4996.572,"end":5011.59,"text":"就是學校在這個學期開始他就陸續開始都全部來來來我還也要求教育部針對3加1這一個的方案的實際執行也提交一個書面報告提交書面報告來給我們本委員會來看因為我們當初就質疑過這個問題了你現在質疑要做"},{"start":5015.634,"end":5016.435,"text":"謝謝陳委員。接下來請賴瑞龍委員詢答。"},{"start":5046.482,"end":5047.926,"text":"好謝謝趙薇請邱部長邱部長請"},{"start":5056.343,"end":5076.895,"text":"部長好,首先還是先請教一下啦,其實大家很,特別是選舉期間大家開始關心這個戰爭與和平啦,那當然大家都尋求和平啦,沒有人會主動想要發動戰爭,更何況是民主國家,更不會有啦,那國際專家也大概都有提了一些對台灣的一些建議啦,部長怎麼看待我們怎麼樣去尋求我們的和平?"},{"start":5077.981,"end":5092.612,"text":"我覺得講說我們防備的工作一定要做,你要講說有文事者必有五倍。我想任何一個國家,你在什麼民主、在什麼專制,你本身防衛的力量要有。"},{"start":5093.012,"end":5096.894,"text":"我直接問部長,部長你覺得這八年台灣有沒有做任何挑釁的動作?這八年就好台灣從來沒有做任何挑釁的動作"},{"start":5123.829,"end":5141.145,"text":"他認為在軍事方面的挑釁從來沒有做到現在中共主要認為講說有很多不管是政治或商業或者什麼條約等等的他覺得他這個界定就挑釁不見得是軍事方面那這我就沒有什麼意見了"},{"start":5141.665,"end":5157.458,"text":"民主國家裡面要去發動戰爭不是那麼容易的一件事情但是專制的國家恐怕就一個人的決定可能就會做的決定所以我們擔憂的擔憂這個所以我們必須防止的是專制者獨裁者一個人的一個決定就是說如果"},{"start":5157.858,"end":5172.875,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":5172.875,"end":5176.377,"text":"我同意。我剛剛跟委員報告,這就是一個自我防衛的能力,一定要有。就任何國家有文士者必有五倍。這不是我講的。千古不變的一個定理。"},{"start":5199.511,"end":5219.704,"text":"所以我想台灣不挑釁但是台灣也要必須強化自己的防衛能力那我想接下來再問一下因為我們的這個潛艦國造其實就是一個防衛能力的增加我們不會主動的去那個但是當你有潛艦在的時候其實就能夠增強更大嚇阻力你想要去對台灣發動"},{"start":5221.285,"end":5240.662,"text":"不管世界各想要對台灣發動任何的手他就會產生更大的嚇阻力部長同意這樣的看法吧我也同意就想說我們沒有挑釁別人但我們也要讓任何人知道假如你來侵犯我的話你本身你要付出代價部長那我問一下那什麼樣的人會阻止或反對台灣這個製造潛艦"},{"start":5243.044,"end":5243.064,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":5259.885,"end":5286.785,"text":"緊張要答覆,這我背著...部長,那我問你,如果想要侵略者,會不會想要去阻止你的潛艦的建立,會不會?比如說如果是專制的中共,如果是民主的國家,大概對這個東西應該是比較還好一點。中共不光對我們潛艦有問題,它在我們任何一樣軍品的採購或研發,它都有問題啊。對,因為只要它具有想要去侵略你的一個企圖心的時候,它就可能去希望你都不要走。對,我們放棄我們的武裝嘛。"},{"start":5287.845,"end":5312.896,"text":"這是任何一個敵對國家他對對方的期望都這樣子啊但沒有任何國家可以接受啊是啊 所以民主國家不會輕易的去對民主國家去發動任何嘛因為你說美國、日本或其他的民主國家他不會輕易的做這樣的事情嘛去發動任何的一個戰爭但是專制的國家具有這個獨裁者的國家是有可能會因為他的誤判而發出了這樣的訊號出來嘛"},{"start":5316.139,"end":5335.975,"text":"國軍一直在做的就是戰訓我們的本務,我們所做的就是防止任何外來單位、對,這個我們全力支持,全力支持國防部來做好這樣子我們的防衛的這個動作。那我問一下接下來潛艦的原型艦來完成之後,後續的國造的這個潛艦的部分會不會繼續來進行?海軍"},{"start":5340.441,"end":5340.681,"text":"所以強化我們國防嘛"},{"start":5362.711,"end":5377.491,"text":"那所以後續的潛艦都會如期來完成嗎?部長這沒有問題吧?我們就講說先把這個測評都沒有問題了打好一個很好的基礎後面的發展就如計畫來完成那部長會不會擔心未來會有變化?"},{"start":5378.257,"end":5380.898,"text":"國防部就保衛中華民國保衛台灣的安全這樣的角度還是要不斷跟國人去講"},{"start":5399.068,"end":5402.57,"text":"我跟委員報我從當部長到現在啊我到還沒有遇到哪一個不支持國防的啦講真話是他們的關切的這個課題會讓人覺得好像我們在好像要做一個什麼阻攔"},{"start":5428.286,"end":5443.077,"text":"我到目前沒有任何的叫我停止啊的工作,沒有。謝謝,謝謝部長。我希望國防部繼續努力的來推動啦,特別是跟國人的說明跟這個讓他們更了解。那我想問一下,除了潛艦國造,國艦國造未來會不會持續來推動?這也是有計畫也在持續推動的。來,要不要說明一下?"},{"start":5448.97,"end":5477.225,"text":"關於國建國造的部分現在全部都是按照計劃陸續在執行之中未來還有沒有再繼續這個還會嗎我們也希望持續的強化因為現在這個海洋的部分其實未來都是一個重要的如果我們有更強的嚇阻力在那個特別是海洋的部分大家都越來越重視的時候那你有更強的一個保衛能力跟嚇阻力的時候我們就能夠展現更強的我們自己的國力"},{"start":5478.286,"end":5478.686,"text":"產發署聯署長"},{"start":5497.236,"end":5523.821,"text":"來,署長我先講,剩最後一點點時間。署長當然,部長也都在這邊。我還是要強調,這個所有的船的部分,其實不管是造船、台船,或者是國家的一些重要的,幾乎都是落在高雄。不管是國家的幾個重要的一個船廠的部分。那船舶的中心唯獨就是在北部。我希望未來應該要持續地加重。你不要讓你的製造基地跟你的研發是分在兩個地方。"},{"start":5524.781,"end":5544.949,"text":"這個絕對是會產生你的製造最強的地點是在南部在高雄的時候那你就應該讓你研發多一點去跟那個因為當地會有很多的一些各種技術上的合作或者是新的一些研究出來那我希望未來讓這個研發的部分讓這個傳播中心部分應該要多一點跟南部的合作我認為應該往高雄去移動才能夠整個讓我們的傳播的設計傳播的製造能夠更強的一個效果"},{"start":5548.951,"end":5575.018,"text":"主長同意這樣的看法嗎?同意,因為所以說在進攻中心現在有成立一個船舶的那個特別一個處所以這也是要加強在南部這一部分來做研發我希望後續的部分經濟部各部會的部分應該要加強對這一塊當我們最強的都在南部的時候我們造船實力最強的都在南部的時候研發跟整個所有的研究的部分也應該要往南部去移動才能夠讓它整個不要把製造紙放在南部然後研發都放在北部我認為這個長遠是其實是不好的效果的好謝謝主長謝謝"},{"start":5582.714,"end":5584.276,"text":"接下來請王定宇委員詢答。"},{"start":5606.769,"end":5634.809,"text":"國防委員好部長早我們常在國防委員會討論一些決策的問題因為不管是武器的研製、採購或者是軍事的部署決策到執行部隊是一個口令、一個動作所以決策很重要所以我今天特別在我們這一屆任期的最後階段希望跟部長討論一件事情我覺得這個決策看起來不大其實影響會深遠"},{"start":5636.96,"end":5665.058,"text":"我們不管是自己國造的武器比如說天弓系列、雄風系列或者是雷霆2000或者我們去對外採購的不管現在傳說的AGM-158或者是F16V或海馬士我們其實都追求的是更精準打得更遠嚇阻力會更大精準、更遠那花的經費其實相當多那回到我們單兵"},{"start":5666.499,"end":5667.259,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":5685.63,"end":5701.827,"text":"我們台灣是一個城鎮遍布的環境我們沒有像那個大國有一大片的礦野跟沙漠所以精準打得遠對步兵的提高存活率跟戰鬥力其實很重要的我相信部長在這方面比我更專業"},{"start":5703.368,"end":5727.224,"text":"那我們現在呢單兵所使用的步槍我也看到我們軍備局確實有開始研製下一代XT112這個步槍但我必須提出說這個決策我今天真的是希望部長思考看看我們現在國軍現有的步槍是T91嘛但是我們後備部隊還有一些支援型的部隊還在用K2 T65 K2"},{"start":5729.758,"end":5733.059,"text":"我先請教部長,就你了解我們T-91的評價如何?其實我們T-91的評價是好的,是不錯的。我們如果武器可以出口,T-91的槍功還是我們少數可以出口的裝備之一。所以T-91我看了,包含國際上的在分析,台灣的國造T-91步槍是一把好槍。"},{"start":5759.189,"end":5759.389,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":5778.847,"end":5790.498,"text":"現在呢T-91的評價其實不錯穩定度啊各方面都還不錯我們現在進行研製的XT-112下一個新世代的步槍它的口徑是不是還是5.56"},{"start":5792.936,"end":5795.477,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":5813.32,"end":5816.001,"text":"五點五六有他的優點是他穿透性好是那以前呢"},{"start":5833.886,"end":5858.303,"text":"二制的大概是7.62的他是撞擊力大打了他會停下來我們5.56打幾槍中彈之後可能第一時間還不曉得還往前跑加上現在各國的防彈鋼板越做越好所以5.56的穿透力跟嚇阻力尤其我們的兵是精兵啊對方可能是用人海如果你不能壓制住他他還是往前衝的話"},{"start":5859.898,"end":5875.07,"text":"其實這個是一些思維的考慮所以我現在要提的就是說我們在有限的經費下有兩件事情我今天要具體建議的美國下一代的步槍他不是用5.56了他下一代步槍是用6.8厘米的"},{"start":5876.527,"end":5891.219,"text":"他的下一代步槍當然有很多新的設計他XM7是這個用6.8厘米老共的下一代不是下一代現在正在用的步槍他已經洋氣AK系列了他現在也是用6.8的嘛6.8他用8厘米的啦大家都開始採用6.8的喔就我們現在國造的下一代步槍我們還是維持"},{"start":5903.908,"end":5924.528,"text":"五點五六的這一點我是請部長你們是專家是不是在我們相關的兵工的產業討論看看如果我們要研製下一代的新時代的步槍那我們跟盟友之間又是合作關係我們在步槍的口徑上有沒有必要思考大家下一代走同樣"},{"start":5925.623,"end":5926.323,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":5950.066,"end":5976.975,"text":"共事那麼久了我永遠都是希望給國軍更多的預算、更多的資源讓我們的官兵弟兄用更好的裝備嘛防彈背心要用更好的我們的槍要用更好的是不是在現階段這些經費上把我們現在平價不錯還沒有全面換裝完成的T91其實未來的戰爭環境光學瞄準打得準握把打得準然後呢可以看得更遠"},{"start":5978.208,"end":5978.628,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":5997.613,"end":6013.96,"text":"單兵要特戰化作戰環境訓練實戰化而我們所處的環境、掩體、防射、精準度、射擊距離對單兵的存活率其實很有幫助所以再這樣請教我就我們下一代研製的步槍"},{"start":6015.5,"end":6039.706,"text":"XT112我具體建議國防部思考下一代我們國軍弟兄所需要的步槍它的口徑是不是應該往6.8走我沒有定論我尊重專家我只告訴你說各國往這樣走那我們自己還要維持5.56至於說啊那我們現在庫存一大堆5.56子彈怎麼樣那個不是問題啦因為我們可以把我們如果未來走到那一天的時候T91就會變後備部隊的嘛"},{"start":6041.306,"end":6049.685,"text":"好槍給後備部隊嘛我們換專實戰現役的主戰部隊開始先換專下一代新式步槍可以走6.8厘米的嘛"},{"start":6050.663,"end":6051.384,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":6075.996,"end":6096.279,"text":"是不是全面的把光學瞄準跟握把變標配讓他作戰訓練實戰化他平常就熟悉這些裝備那面對的是不管是灘頭、城鎮各種作戰環境精準度提高、存活率提高、射擊距離拉遠我們在雄風二"},{"start":6097.58,"end":6118.141,"text":"不管是雄二、雄三、公二、公三我們在所有新式大裝備的時候都在思考更準、更遠、存活率更高可是我們最寶貴的國軍弟兄姊妹們他在用的單兵作戰武器的時候其實應該要套進同樣的思維然後未來我們每一個單兵都是我們國家重要資產存活率要提高"},{"start":6125.687,"end":6147.443,"text":"對我們國軍建立一個具備嚇阻力的戰鬥量才有幫助我該建議這些因為我怕這是這一次會期我們兩個最後一次見面希望不是也歡迎你在旁邊坐你就這邊我是不是跟主席借幾分鐘部長怎麼看這個事情對我跟委員報告委員看法很對我們認為一個建案第一個考量為什麼要建這個案一定是敵情"},{"start":6148.484,"end":6168.561,"text":"第一須有變化,我們也要與時俱進啊。所以我們問他講說要做的需要,第二考量任務,任務能不能執行。執行,第二考量敵人怎麼變化。我們也要跟著變化,這絕對對的。那剛剛委員提出的建議也都很具體的。我想我們國軍建案也好,建軍的工作是要與時俱進。"},{"start":6170.242,"end":6170.602,"text":"這是應該的,謝謝委員。"},{"start":6204.568,"end":6206.348,"text":"梁副市長"},{"start":6233.096,"end":6253.061,"text":"教育部,國防部針對一五一拋出了三加一的方案,同時也希望大學生在三年內要完成大學學業,然後用一年的時間來服役。教育部的研擬提供了經費,引導大學來協助學生的完成異難專案服役。由醫院申請的異難需要在開學前"},{"start":6258.602,"end":6275.856,"text":"開始的時候二月份或者在九月份呢向戶籍地公所來申請那在這個學期當中呢也要陸續的來完成入伍前的前置作業對不對是所以在這樣的情況之下我們的學期結束的暑假"},{"start":6276.576,"end":6299.305,"text":"或寒假、露營來服役,完成了服役之後來學校協助復學的這個輔導。所以本席在這邊請教教育部目前申請的人數有提高嗎?你要怎麼樣去確保不會造成學生在學習上的一個衝擊?那麼你是否有持續的來掌控各校的辦理情況?請做說明。"},{"start":6300.385,"end":6324.924,"text":"是,跟委員報告,教育部在這個這個修業彈性措施的有三個基本的原則第一個就是說一定要確保學生他的一個自主的意願那第二個在不影響他對,自主意願很重要對,那第二個就是在他不影響他的一個專業能力的一個養成對,專業能力的養成非常重要因為3加1,縮短的時間怎麼去補足會用3加1就是說"},{"start":6325.845,"end":6348.302,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":6348.382,"end":6374.185,"text":"所以跟委員報告就是說那他倒是必須要在其他的這個三年當中他比如說立中原來在學期當中對嘛他四年收回三年嘛要怎麼去補對如果他有這樣意願有這個可能性我們必須要提供這樣的一個彈性措施所以我們會在學期間他原來各校可能有限制學位分的休息的學位分數我們會希望他給他增加針對有申請這個專案的學生那另外再加暑期的暑休還有像跨校的選修"},{"start":6374.845,"end":6401.28,"text":"這本席剛剛已經告訴你了,就是在你暑假寒假嘛。那現在申請的人數有提高嗎?是,跟委員報告,大概因為是從這個學年開始有學生陸續要來申請。那目前我們收到各校已經,到目前為止,都是我們大概到12月5號的資料為止已經有7個學校,總共有46名學生來向學校。跟你們預估的人數相符合嗎?"},{"start":6402.18,"end":6409.604,"text":"所以目前46位你滿意嗎?針對這個政策當然我們還是配合國防政策希望持續來透過學校來跟學生來來宣導好那我們再請部長好嗎?國防部長謝謝教育部你稍等謝謝我們一起來討論"},{"start":6430.009,"end":6454.979,"text":"教育部長,因為教育部現在說是我們這邊的需求,那現在的這個人數你滿意嗎?我沒有什麼滿意不滿意,我們當初訂這個義務要服的話,我們只要求這一年是連著服役,沒有服了一半寒假來一個階段的暑假。不能斷?沒有,對,其他的配套的話,因為教育部它有它的作法。那你有沒有人數的KPI?"},{"start":6456.516,"end":6479.656,"text":"有沒有人數?你的希望?有沒有?我沒有這個期望這樣。部長沒有期望喔?我沒有。我就只要能夠如期的按照我們推動一年期一期來服役。當然有一個政策我們當然有一個目標嘛。那現在教育部在這邊是46名。那你們國防部的目標認為這樣夠嗎?是夠了還是不夠?沒有。我們沒有設定這個目標嘛。來請說。請說。"},{"start":6486.69,"end":6508.585,"text":"委員跟委員報告因為這個是整個議期調整的一個配套我們是提供那個有需要的一個在學藝男的學生他一個多元的選項是只可以給他一個管道跟一個選項依他個人的意願跟他的能力來提出需求所以並不是以他的數目的多寡來作為他那個KPI的指標所以數目我們不拘嘛是這大家講清楚就是給他提高一個管道"},{"start":6509.045,"end":6535.024,"text":"所以提高一個管道大家聽到了所以不用壓力要好好努力去做就對了那接下來部長因為當位需求的人是在您這邊來訓練但是教育部在這邊也就是大專院校有七個學校願意要努力去辦但是也有學校拒絕嘛教育部是不是也有學校跟你們說我沒有辦法配合不會跟委員報告因為我們"},{"start":6536.138,"end":6554.054,"text":"是因為從這個學期開始才開始因為有民國94年次的學生所以現在只有7家學校目前已經有了7所學校46個學生那陸續還會有陸續7所學校目前我們也希望政府既然既定政策那就是要去落實"},{"start":6555.896,"end":6576.118,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":6576.198,"end":6600.995,"text":"本校請教我們的一呼一啟從現在的四個月恢復到一年那麼我們規劃有五個階段的訓練包括陸武的基礎訓練、駐地訓練等等那最迷人的就是說在他們訓練的當中步槍兵他實際的射擊數不得低於800發還有就是說他期望能夠有高階的操作標槍的飛彈"},{"start":6606.438,"end":6625.704,"text":"還有刺針飛彈等等高階的專長武器的訓練所以大家就非常期待所以請教部長我們現在符合訓練的基地夠不夠訓練的我們目前大概要有服一年的會有9000多人我們統計大概9127人"},{"start":6630.385,"end":6639.263,"text":"每一年一定會再增加會再增加在這樣的情況之下本席要請教部長我們訓練的基地現在到底夠還是不夠來請教"},{"start":6641.001,"end":6641.201,"text":"現在準備好了嗎?"},{"start":6660.635,"end":6661.495,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":6682.724,"end":6699.933,"text":"所以本席要再請教我們的軍事投資案的計畫因為我們希望計轉能夠讓我國的國防產業它能夠跟世界來接軌這個是我非常支持的一點所以本席要請教"},{"start":6701.033,"end":6717.491,"text":"我們跟經濟部跟外商的這個簽託工業合作協議書呢那這個要先簽這個發價書那事後工合呢的這個部分呢繼續來這個談判有一個彈性嘛那所以本席要請教"},{"start":6718.933,"end":6744.138,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":6745.131,"end":6767.065,"text":"那麼經濟部也在現場本席非常希望國防部跟經濟部要密切合作一定要務必要密切合作因為我們國內的國防工業必須要由政府來協助他們而且希望能夠計準那麼讓跟他們跟世界接軌這就是我們的目標嘛對不對所以呢部長本席要請教"},{"start":6767.825,"end":6795.9,"text":"本黨所提出的國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案是針對於主管機關以及經濟部應該要鼓勵外國的廠商跟合格的廠商進行產業合作跟相互投資相互投資所以我們增訂了並落實技術移轉的這個規範來提升我們的國防資儲改善產業環境以利我們跟世界接軌你同不同意本黨所提出的這個方案"},{"start":6796.48,"end":6818.139,"text":"這當然同意啦,這只要對我們國防自主有幫助嘛。像剛剛委員所關切的,一定要經過哪一個單位國家。但我要跟委員報告,我們有一些這個,不管發展或軍過各方面,都跟很多地方同步在做。不能夠只有一個地方。對,當然,當然,廣泛性的。對我們將來有幫助的,我們都樂見。福祉國內的國防產業。"},{"start":6823.263,"end":6823.924,"text":"接下來請吳斯懷委員詢答。"},{"start":6855.576,"end":6870.811,"text":"謝謝主席。有請邱部長。邱部長請。委員好。部長好。首先我想問一個媒體關注還有民眾關注的議題。"},{"start":6872.11,"end":6896.866,"text":"就是國防部的軍營安全條例現在準備二讀了但是我想我在一讀之前跟法治司相關的同仁也做過交換意見提出很多具體的地方必須在二讀、三讀之前讓民眾能夠適宜因為這個條例如果你把它寫得這麼死的話"},{"start":6899.397,"end":6900.758,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":6919.952,"end":6937.875,"text":"但是你這條例定的要考慮到實際可不可以執行那現在媒體跟軍事迷還有一般住在營區周圍的群眾民眾他們疑慮的是現在的現況是譬如說我們最清楚的花蓮的"},{"start":6940.598,"end":6951.068,"text":"機場軍事民就在跑到旁邊的咖啡廳二樓是最佳景點我都去過兩次就看著飛機起降大家在那邊拍照每一個機場都有每一個港口都有"},{"start":6952.506,"end":6971.871,"text":"那麼這些的界定你現在條例裡規定的是包含演習包含訓場只要軍事迷或者媒體或者民眾拍照或用其他方式不管無人機什麼拍的照在他社群媒體一旦披露就可能設法"},{"start":6972.851,"end":6995.229,"text":"司法這刑期判得很重這一部分有沒有在惡毒之前國防部暫緩一下跟民眾示意甚至開個公聽會聽聽媒體代表群眾代表交換點意見這樣子才能夠讓一個法令通過以後執行上確實無礙部長的看法"},{"start":6995.489,"end":7020.208,"text":"是,鮑委員您講的這個很有道理大家會好像很擔憂你嚴格規定那麼嚴格我好像動輒得咎事實上很多地方我們這母法定了以後它就有很多執法執法不光是國防部來律例就其他部會所以我們為何對外講法講說就算三族通過以後不是馬上要施行因為"},{"start":7020.908,"end":7045.978,"text":"行政院會要求其他各部會針對這個母法上面相關的執法會去做一個研議等到都很周延了才會推動那目前我們也也知道像外面民眾所關切的陳福光委員所講的會議好像我們過了做了好像就變成一個一個太嚴苛了動輒我們叫法辦不會的因為事實上有很多地方我們要"},{"start":7047.058,"end":7062.855,"text":"讓我們推動工作與法有據我跟委員報告一下像以前這個營區裏面有人闖進去了我們請警察幫忙那警察說我依據什麼他就講你沒有這個營區這種規範的話他只能闖入民宅的方法來辦"},{"start":7064.336,"end":7079.53,"text":"我們最起碼想這個法定了以後對我們執行法的單位不光是軍方、聯同縣警等等它是與法有據在與法有據執行當中有任何的不周圍的地方"},{"start":7080.211,"end":7103.092,"text":"但是法庭他們自然會去做一個說明、講解,不會想說變成只要軍中界線一劃,這個就變成不可侵犯,不會這樣子的。我想部長剛才舉的幾項案例,包含營區內部的安全維護,本席是絕對支持的。否則闖入營區沒有任何處置的法源依據,我們國軍還叫國軍嗎?"},{"start":7105.074,"end":7132.793,"text":"但是演訓場所的界定我希望你們找時間或者透過媒體讓群眾示意他連拍照都不敢拍的那些軍事迷天天都在九鵬基地附近山頭上架著大炮你拍了就犯法你只要敢貼出來你就判刑像這些演習區域的界定訓練場地的界定民眾不見得了解我希望在這幾個部分"},{"start":7133.493,"end":7157.952,"text":"多做一點更細緻的說明,包含你未來執法可能會做到什麼程度,否則你這個法案通過引起很多爭議,不是給你們徒增困擾嗎?是不是?了解。好,接著我再問啊,最近媒體報導美國空軍有個上位軍官來台灣住了幾個月,寫出一大堆不知道是依據什麼寫出來的結論,他的結論是"},{"start":7162.281,"end":7180.373,"text":"台灣受中國入侵有百分之七十人會留下來抵抗百分之二十會離開台灣百分之十會投降他的位階不過是一個上位軍官是現役的我想問問看他來台灣受兩個伴侶的專業訓練是誰訓練他是不是國防部邀請來的"},{"start":7187.13,"end":7213.498,"text":"那麼美國奉行的是軍人不能干政啊這這個現役尚未來我們國家指指點點還做出一些結論我非常不認同這些它依據什麼做出來的所以我想請部長知不知道這件事說明一下我跟委員報告這我剛剛聽委員長講話第一個問題是誰邀請這位美軍尚未來台這我還真不知道我們哪個單位邀請最起碼國防部沒有做這個邀請嘛"},{"start":7215.934,"end":7238.384,"text":"剛剛講說他有發表言論,我想我曾經對大家也講得很清楚,有很多學者專家他個人有什麼意見表達,我不會去跟他爭辯,因為他有他立的基礎。同樣當然委員關係也沒有錯,他一個美軍上位,他這個發表可能他這個原意為何我真不太了解。"},{"start":7241.767,"end":7254.701,"text":"我希望你們去了解一下因為他這個說法他又在美國空軍部部長辦公室任職雖然他位階不高他是現役上位是在美國空軍部部長辦公室任職"},{"start":7255.842,"end":7276.775,"text":"那麼他是受哪些特定人士、特定團體請來來做大內宣表示我們台灣人如何如何你一個上位有多大的閱歷跟經驗台灣住兩個月你就可以發表這種我本席深深不以為然我想他跟國軍有關我想部長希望有空了解一下"},{"start":7277.815,"end":7306.608,"text":"來龍去脈背井好不好?事實上國防部沒有邀約這些人就算來的話這一定是針對議題來討論他不會擅自對外發布這種訊息重點是他來台灣受兩個半月的專業訓練誰請他來他受了什麼訓練這些我們覺得很詫異媒體登了好幾次了我就覺得一直想問你們今天好不容易等到部長來你們去了解一下"},{"start":7307.83,"end":7317.195,"text":"回頭給本席一個稍微完整一點的資料。我相信你們是沒有,不然我不可能不知道,但是誰請他來的?那寫得言之鑿鑿,受兩個半月專業訓練得出的結論是台灣沒問題,我們都會抵抗。"},{"start":7329.534,"end":7332.057,"text":"另外美國國防部的中國軍力報告裡面也寫到很多"},{"start":7346.148,"end":7367.341,"text":"這幾年擾台、共機擾台、網路戰都有增加很多比例的趨勢但是他們其中最重要的幾個點我建議部長抽空啊你們兩個把這個重要的內容摘錄給部長參閱其中有幾個我們比較關注的美國國防部自己都承認"},{"start":7368.738,"end":7387.906,"text":"對於共軍的情報掌握沒有辦法做到很精確有很多盲點他自己都承認這個很少見美國對中國大陸的軍力報告很少自己在正式文件上說我們對中國解放軍的情報掌握"},{"start":7389.025,"end":7390.126,"text":"二、審查本院"},{"start":7407.91,"end":7407.97,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":7433.733,"end":7445.606,"text":"目前收到臨時提案有兩個案子等江啟臣委員詢答結束之後我們進行處理處理完畢之後我們再休息五分鐘接下來請接下來請廖瓦蘇廖委員質詢"},{"start":7461.983,"end":7464.865,"text":"來,謝謝主席。我請一下邱部長。請部長。還有國防學士班跟ROTC這個是兩個單位。部長辛苦了。也是志願師嗎?"},{"start":7481.257,"end":7483.678,"text":"國防部跟我們講說整個國防學士班招收不到學生所以我們今年度提辦113年停辦"},{"start":7509.088,"end":7528.265,"text":"但是從這個投訴當中,他覺得說在整個國防學士班當中,其實在大學的學生裡面、學校裡面其實蠻有意願的。當然你們的解釋是說當初的清華大學校長非常極力在招募,在說服大家讓學生能夠多以參與。"},{"start":7529.446,"end":7529.687,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":7550.618,"end":7551.458,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":7575.029,"end":7598.85,"text":"同意跟他們做一個說明然後呢事後你們只發新聞說沒有獲得學校的同意安排到底誤差在哪裡我不曉得所以我這裡在等一下的提案當中有提到如果今年度今年九月已經承諾這個了而且學校已經在招募了而且有招到學生的時候我們是不是要停辦"},{"start":7600.665,"end":7623.222,"text":"我跟委員報告,其實當中肯定有一點誤會。因為事實上我兩年多前到國防部以後,他有跟我提到的班隊。我第一個問題講說,這個成效怎麼樣?他就列個表給我。到目前我整個數據我跟委員報告,譬如說我們要期望獲得200多人,但後來遭到了大概有67人。67人當中還有21個人他說,就不來參加了。"},{"start":7628.806,"end":7637.963,"text":"所以真正這幾年累計出來以後要兩百多人只有四十多人而且最近這兩年幾乎很多校都零"},{"start":7639.424,"end":7642.967,"text":"我了解在這個整個預算審查當中其實國防部都有說明部長我不是打倒你的意思但是我現在想了解的是這國防學士班跟ROTC的話請問一下ROTC現在招募的學生數是481位"},{"start":7668.833,"end":7693.227,"text":"所以說我要跟委員報告,他跟ROTC幾乎是一概等的。對,所以我們那時候在審查預算當中也希望說,如果不行,其實有意願的可以轉到ROTC。那我想請教一下志願市,你跟我回答。ROTC的學校來源,學生來源大致都有哪些學校?因為國防學士班你定位的當然清華成功中心就不招了嘛。"},{"start":7693.607,"end":7714.838,"text":"但是呢,中央、中山政治、臺灣跟臺北大學等等的這些學校為主是國防學士班那ROTC的學生到底來源是哪些學校?有沒有歸納過?ROTC每個大學,所有大學都可以報名的。我希望所有大學是哪?所有大學?教育部知不知道?聯署長"},{"start":7716.201,"end":7734.468,"text":"所以我這邊可以列舉出來的不管是清華、政大、台大、成功、中央、中興、中山都包含在裡面國防學士班都有這些學生你把ROTC的學生、學校數、學生數你說給本市長講我其實不是說一定要把國防學士班"},{"start":7739.15,"end":7739.771,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":7755.01,"end":7755.19,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":7778.314,"end":7799.792,"text":"那這些有沒有需要在這些學校當中去尋找國防人才那國防人才為什麼他們不要呢不是只有學校校長推動的動力而已而是我們的誘因有沒有給他更好對不對因為實際上我看你們的那個預期當中的補助啦各方面都一樣嘛只是國防學術班的話你如果沒有"},{"start":7802.954,"end":7804.135,"text":"所以大家不敢去參加國防學士班"},{"start":7817.11,"end":7817.27,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":7838.66,"end":7839.14,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":7861.107,"end":7880.624,"text":"能不能,如果說已經有學生要報的話,能不能繼續?沒有,他已經在那邊就讀的啊,我們一樣,他這個後面...就讀的當然就讀今年度,一百一十三學年度。要報我們準備要停止了,因為要報的話,我們這幾年成績已經看到了,都掛零嘛,要不就是來了幾個,我覺得這個投資他如果真要有意願的話,"},{"start":7881.525,"end":7882.425,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":7909.79,"end":7910.511,"text":"三、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":7934.09,"end":7936.933,"text":"那現在我們剛剛講的國防大學這幾個學校當然有時候劇烈的關係學生要休息當休息學分當中很難去去去因為解決交通的問題然後包括那個"},{"start":7946.974,"end":7947.014,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":7972.625,"end":7972.885,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":8001.721,"end":8018.864,"text":"只是我是覺得應該就幾個方向去檢討那ROTC我相信過去失敗的原因你們現在是有就好了還是因為過去也是失敗過所以停招停招之後才恢復的嘛那現在是因為人力缺乏所以我就"},{"start":8019.184,"end":8039.899,"text":"當初ROTC它不是失敗,它因為當初有很多班隊還有預官,所以它的來源是很充分的。現在來源不充分,所以ROTC就可以。後來也有很多提議,說ROTC還是可以造就出一些專業人員,譬如說部隊裡面有一些ROTC,到現在位階也不低,也收到將軍都有。"},{"start":8041.673,"end":8044.935,"text":"但是我們看到數據我也請他們提供數據給委員看一看這幾年來要的不多十個"},{"start":8067.648,"end":8073.232,"text":"所以我說要檢討就是他沒有誘因尤其國防學士班你如果沒有參加的話他就連學籍學校都不能唸的情況之下當然沒有誘因啦所以我是覺得這是要檢討啦如果我們需要這些學校的科系上的人力配合國防部產業發展的話我是覺得應該再修正一下他的更好的誘因給他嘛"},{"start":8092.646,"end":8094.047,"text":"最後一個問題我想請教一下就是也是配合今天的產業發展條例當中的修正案我是覺得那一天我們在參訪當中"},{"start":8117.84,"end":8144.065,"text":"何昭薇有提到未來我們的無人機的推動經濟部今天也有來我們無人機推動是無人機國家隊但是為什麼我想請問一下部長您請回休息一下沒關係為什麼經濟部會提出來在無人機國家隊當中由四家廠商然後兩兩來合作研發結果測試不過之後變成這個無人機的生產反之無人機的生產就停辦了"},{"start":8146.054,"end":8165.798,"text":"現在變成不管你有沒有參加無人機都可以來招標沒有參加驗證的廠商也可以來招標這個整個制度大亂了這個請國防部來回答我先問你為什麼找世嘉來做合作呢?當時我們是推薦總統當時是推薦世嘉兩家兩家合作那後來決定說兩家合作是國防部這邊來主導的"},{"start":8173.53,"end":8174.15,"text":"二、審查本院國防部部長"},{"start":8196.796,"end":8205.869,"text":"國科會、工程會共同組成一個審議委員會來決定出來,然後推薦給國防部。兩家兩家研發結果研發失敗之後,現在為什麼要沒有參加過驗證的廠商都可以來招標?"},{"start":8217.489,"end":8236.079,"text":"兩家研發失敗之後,四家兩家兩家研發失敗之後,現在沒有成效了,然後現在是變成說沒有驗證過的,我們為了急迫需要這些反制污染劑的話,我們現在是公開招標嗎?那個委員指的是明年後年的26套的採購的政策。你們原型機不是兩…"},{"start":8239.475,"end":8253.423,"text":"委員好,我是國防採訪室主任,跟委員報告因為這個研發,它之前援引機的研發它適用這個限制性招標所以說,原則上就是經濟部評選出來的合格廠商我們從合格廠商裡面來遴選這個廠商來開發但是因為量產案"},{"start":8258.126,"end":8260.568,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":8287.808,"end":8288.628,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":8316.92,"end":8342.335,"text":"所以變成這個測試是失敗的嗎?這個案子是失敗的嗎?每一家公司會跟你整合嗎?你想想也是好我現在質疑的地方就是當你兩家兩家、四家變兩家兩家各研發測評沒有過的、測試沒有過的情況之下現在你們要怎麼完成未來的量產?"},{"start":8343.049,"end":8343.229,"text":"二、審查本院"},{"start":8362.335,"end":8383.936,"text":"但是因為選擇性招標所以它還是有初步的一個選擇兩兩研究都研究不出來原型機了你現在開放的話唯一的就是代理商進來嘛所以我希望代理商進來你公告招標我都沒有意見代理商進來根據我們的產業發展條例在國內設廠或者是技術移轉可以嗎"},{"start":8385.885,"end":8390.868,"text":"我們樂觀啟程,我們樂觀國內產業自主發展。但是要不要代理商的話?兩兩研究都研究不出來,你現在公開招標,哪一個做得出來?就是代理商進來買現成的給你嘛。那我要求的可以,我們有必要性,一個原則在國內設廠,不然就是技術移轉好不好?"},{"start":8411.465,"end":8412.186,"text":"接下來請江啟臣、江委員質詢"},{"start":8444.468,"end":8447.35,"text":"主席、邀請部長邱委員"},{"start":8462.878,"end":8482.356,"text":"台灣的代表制的這個票選大家選出缺字嘛那我看你有對這個自由做出回應說你說國軍缺乏更好的場地訓練然後更好的這些裝備等等那我請教一下部長缺場地這一個部分你現在"},{"start":8483.477,"end":8500.219,"text":"我覺得最缺的是哪一部?我缺的是缺乏我們訓練,我擔心我們訓練不足,我只怕這一個。所以是缺乏訓練?對,因為那天有這個字出來嘛,就去問嘛。我跟你講我沒有表達任何意見。"},{"start":8502.743,"end":8518.584,"text":"因為我看到媒體寫說你說缺更好的場地做訓練我想會奇怪說的這些我們該蓋的場地這些等等立法院幾乎全部都給你預算但是的確有一些延宕"},{"start":8519.685,"end":8545.754,"text":"對不對?你們在發包的時候或者在做一些工程的這些施作的時候我們每年審查預算常常都會出現預算沒有執行或執行率不佳嘛所以第一個場地的部分我認為基本上國防部編列的預算立法院幾乎都審議通過啦都是支持的所以接下來是你們執行率的問題至於你提到說更好的訓練這一塊我想這個"},{"start":8549.356,"end":8571.234,"text":"也的確是一個大問題但不管是場地、人或者是裝備包括裝備的這一部分其實大家也都很關心之前大家認為說一些軍購的延宕雖然後來你們也修改了發架書變更了這個交貨的期程不過這個變更是延後的這也是一個事實"},{"start":8571.994,"end":8590.212,"text":"那我現在要問的就是說不管是F16V仿裝甲的飛彈或者是建設的次增防空飛彈M1A2T的裝甲車還有這個F16上面所用到的這些相關的我們說採購的裝備更改後的這些日期會不會再變"},{"start":8595.566,"end":8618.725,"text":"因為這個已經更改過交貨的日期了但基本上最終只交貨的時間不會變最終只交貨不會變所以我現在所看到的不管是F-16V延到2025年的第四季然後仿專甲飛彈延到今年開始交運然後監射飛彈這邊延到2025"},{"start":8621.987,"end":8640.848,"text":"甚至是M1A2T也是明年才開始交貨。這些不會再變了吧?不會再變了。這個我要確認,因為基本上這都是預算沒有問題,都是交貨被延宕的部分。再來一個,其實如果要講缺,我認為最大國防部你要擔心的是缺人。"},{"start":8643.139,"end":8669.438,"text":"我沒有講這個缺人因為我們這個持續招募一定要經常做當然招募我知道你們也認真在招募啦招募也在持續嘛可是你現在最大的問題就是你的編制員的21.5萬我講志願役的部分啦義務役當然很多人關心明年1月開始義務役恢復成這個一年一年的這個役期的徵兵制但志願役的部分這恐怕是你們"},{"start":8670.559,"end":8690.542,"text":"我認為這一塊不該被忽略甚至應該要好好的去檢視跟檢討的因為21.5萬的編制元額但是現在只有15.5萬這個是幾乎已經逼近七成就編線比從過去的八成多一路掉掉掉到現在七成二"},{"start":8692.636,"end":8720.647,"text":"這個是一個蠻大的危機就算我們把這個純均值的拿出來看你純均值的19.4萬的編制但現在的原額是15.5萬那也才7乘979%也不到八成那更令人擔憂的這也是立法院預算中心所提出來的就是說第一線的戰鬥部隊編線比不到八成的問題"},{"start":8721.823,"end":8740.397,"text":"那這個第一線的戰鬥部隊你大概很難期待說用未來一年期的義務役去彌補吧,不太容易吧。如果原本蔡總統所講的義務役一年的兵役是以守備部隊為主,它並不是所謂第一線的主力戰鬥部隊。"},{"start":8742.031,"end":8762.5,"text":"那你要去彌補你現在這個缺額那這是一個這個恐怕沒辦法做彌補而且我們現在所採購的這些新式的武器你大概也很難用一般的EVE來做訓練跟操作你可能連訓練的時間都不夠所以我說缺人的這個問題才是你要面對的問題"},{"start":8763.8,"end":8774.007,"text":"到底原因是什麼?為什麼邊縣比一直掉?然後邊縣比一直掉就算了,你們現在還調高編制原額喔從21.5萬然後從112年開始逐次調整到現在是21.8萬所以已經不是21.5萬了所以如果我們用21.8萬來除的時候你現在的邊縣比是更低的啊"},{"start":8792.518,"end":8793.621,"text":"明年搞不好不到期程"},{"start":8794.522,"end":8823.164,"text":"那這是代表要放棄志願役嗎?放棄募兵制嗎?部長不會調整吧?不會不會因為到後來反過來變成是義務役為主然後志願役為服務我跟委員花鼎生跟文婷報告喔就是說剛剛講說的守備部隊沒有錯但我們當中有規劃很好喔有一些伏筆役的弟兄他有意願到主戰部隊去的喔他的專長要符合經過我們測考可以評鑑可是那就是一年啊"},{"start":8823.684,"end":8848.609,"text":"沒有錯,所以這個要我們一到主戰部隊以後,它不見得就投入主戰兵力,因為主戰部隊裡面也有很多戰鬥支援、勤務支援單位,這都可以算在裡面。可是部長你要想,你要你現在馬上的落差,21.8跟15.5你算一下差多少,差將近6萬。"},{"start":8849.889,"end":8853.351,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":8881.836,"end":8905.408,"text":"對,所以你要馬上彌補啊,彌補我一直講這個gap你21.8跟你現在15.5然後你馬上你要接裝這些新的武器這些新的武器不是只有說操作這些包括維護、維修、後勤各方面這個是一個大問題部長你們想好了沒"},{"start":8907.562,"end":8934.345,"text":"這十五萬我要跟委員報告他還沒有包含這個維持原額喔在風扇裡面大概有十九萬多啦好不好我這跟請上官是跟你說說你那個您剛剛講的分母就是自願役的人力對啊自願役我現在講的就是自願役的對十九萬四嘛那我們縣員是十五萬五對啊沒有錯這中間有個缺口這中間差了四萬欸對大概邊縣比現在大概79.8嘛所以他基本上還是沒有達到"},{"start":8936.085,"end":8949.972,"text":"以往我們都拿八成來看其實八成也是不夠啦所以我要提出來就是說你用什麼方式第一個留住現在的招募來的第二個要能夠招募到新的"},{"start":8951.644,"end":8972.033,"text":"其實去年你們在宣布說恢復徵兵一年期徵兵的時候,包括提高了義務役的待遇但我一直認為你們志願役待遇都沒有提啊,也沒有調啊當時候我也質問過部長嘛,那你們是講說我們就照這個行政院的人事相關的規定來辦理"},{"start":8975.075,"end":8991.883,"text":"但是你們國防部自己有沒有想法說其實你的薪資待遇的誘因不足也是一個大因素這個比較之下其實是很現實的問題甚至我們到第一線去我記得我當召委的時候排了好幾次的考察"},{"start":8993.363,"end":9014.111,"text":"有一些小兵私底下跑到我旁邊跟我講悄悄話他不敢跟你們講他說第一個他說委員我們常常都待命都沒辦法放假沒辦法回去陪小孩陪家人那就算了連什麼連津貼都沒有增加也就是說啦如果我們用加班費來比較的話連這個也沒有"},{"start":9016.805,"end":9036.862,"text":"不管任何部隊啦尤其在第一線這種戰備的部隊尤其前陣子包括現在也一樣兩岸關係也沒有說因為現在好像比較緩和也沒有啦他們的出勤的狀況也都增加但是他的待遇沒有提高他的家籍、補給都沒有增加"},{"start":9039.223,"end":9064.115,"text":"這是這些基層士官兵他不敢跟你們講的可是他們卻偷偷到我耳邊講甚至有些直接寫陳情給我所以部長薪資待遇是一個問題當然還有其他的相關的配套福利我知道你們想要蓋好的房舍給他們住我們都支持啊新安專案你們去蓋我們都支持啊可是薪資結構這一部分你們有要調整嗎"},{"start":9066.363,"end":9085.853,"text":"目前的規劃有嗎?是,報告委員跟委員報告,那有關於薪資待遇的部分除了他的基本待遇是跟著軍公教橫貧的原則我們依行政院的政策指導,另外我們也行政院的政策指導有要調嗎?沒有嘛,那個就是跟著所有的軍公教一起嘛另外我們還依據他的部隊的特性跟任務的屬性"},{"start":9086.593,"end":9113.95,"text":"我知道那個是原本有戰鬥加級、會調整各種勤務跟專業加級,對不對?我們這個是逐年有在做滾動式的檢討。但是最近也沒有調啦。我的意思是說,明年EWE的大幅的調了,但志願也都沒有調。可是你看到你的邊線筆,你們都不緊張嗎?你不緊張,我真的還替你們緊張。為什麼?因為這種東西會產生很多的空窗期。"},{"start":9114.77,"end":9136.596,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":9137.062,"end":9145.226,"text":"它裡面直接寫軍人加薪增加預算總額這個NDA要求為美國軍人加薪5.2%沒有錯你說美國它是軍事大國可是呢"},{"start":9159.701,"end":9180.675,"text":"他們也是一樣啊,他現在還在為軍人,職業軍人,這是職業軍人。所以我今天在這邊特別提出來,就是我之前我也提過了啦,但我覺得就是看到你們編憲筆之後啊,令人更加的擔心啦。那最後最後啊,因為主席站起來了,我最後提出一個問題啊,就是說"},{"start":9182.592,"end":9208.43,"text":"這個NDA裡面國防授權法美國剛出爐的這個國防授權法這個基本上參眾兩院都已經有基本的一些共識了這當中也提到了很多關於對台的這一部分情報交換、軍事訓練合作那特別是軍事訓練合作這一塊他們特別特別的強調我想請教一下部長"},{"start":9209.864,"end":9231.503,"text":"目前我們主要都還是以陸軍為主,對不對?陸軍為主,比較規模稍微大一點的。海空軍的部分未來有沒有打算?一直都有。我們一直在工作,一直在做的。陸海空軍都有?陸海空軍都有。那這部分的規模應該會持續的加大吧?"},{"start":9233.415,"end":9252.02,"text":"會持續的把它鞏固下去那在這個NDA裡面這一次他的條文裡面你們注意看他特別提到一個部分我認為是值得注意的他特別提到要求美國的國防部長還有他們的這個參謀聯席會議的主席甚至是情報單位"},{"start":9253.615,"end":9271.893,"text":"要deliver一個完整的報告這個報告是關於什麼任何可能被共軍怎麼樣封鎖的可能跟方式然後因應的這些這個方案等等的這一部分"},{"start":9273.392,"end":9291.143,"text":"我們自己有沒有做相關的研析跟推演?這就我們為什麼每一年有這個備戰計畫不要調各種可能行動全部放在裡面這也就我們平常部隊演訓的一個依據因為這裡面特別提到,他說"},{"start":9292.244,"end":9298.39,"text":"偵測有可能的封鎖,我們有辦法嗎?比如說我們現在我們能不能告訴大家說這什麼樣的狀況底下我們看出來這可能要對台灣進行封鎖"},{"start":9315.659,"end":9334.812,"text":"我們平常我們都在研判的我們自己有沒有這個identification的list我們當然有各種備案當然有一些不能在這裡講但我要確認的就是你們到底有沒有我們跟委員報告國軍現行對戰這麼多年要講沒有的話那真的笑話一折這個問題就是在於說你要如何預防"},{"start":9345.519,"end":9361.192,"text":"警示,可是面對這些警示你如何破警?你如何預防?讓它不要發生?這部分有沒有相關的準備?應該也有吧,大盤推演都有在演之前考察都有去看"},{"start":9363.154,"end":9379.627,"text":"好,那就是說這個NDA裡面特別提出來所以我在這邊要講的就是當他特別提出來的時候就代表這個恐怕也是未來我們要面對的一個重點所以請國防部好好準備好不好好,謝謝江委員謝謝委員"},{"start":9382.827,"end":9405.238,"text":"我們幾次考察都了解國防部其實行之掌控的不敢說非常好但是應該有在掌控謝謝但是呢這個志願役的加級一定要提高不提高退伍潮會很多謝謝現在我們處理臨時提案有兩個案子請議事人員宣讀第一案"},{"start":9407.073,"end":9434.011,"text":"臨時提案第一案建於共軍無人機隊伍外導防務威脅日升國軍急需無人機反制系統應對威脅為今年由經濟部委民間研製之無人機反制系統原型系統因系統整合失敗陸軍司令部疑與解約據國防部向立法院送交之報告指出未來將由工程會、經濟部及國防部等跨部會另成立無人機反制系統"},{"start":9434.871,"end":9449.205,"text":"專案小組、研議系統規格及採購做法。中科院本具備研製無人機反制或防禦系統軍能力為為因應經濟部無人機國家對之發展、扶植國內無人機反制系統產業、國防部考量外導需求、"},{"start":9451.627,"end":9478.844,"text":"及國內國防產業技術整合能力以委託研究方式檢視國內廠商全系統研製能力以作為未來建制籌貨參考,為免失去扶植國內相關產業發展之本意,仍要求國防部未來不得以代理商取代研製之方式,招標無人機反制系統。體驗人委員廖婉如、陳穎信、吳詩懷、李德維等委員宣讀完畢。請問國防部對體驗內容有沒有意見?"},{"start":9486.909,"end":9505.477,"text":"委員這邊補充說明一下就剛剛還來不及跟委員報告齁如果按照委員您這樣的臨時動議就等於說完全就限制在我國內廠商那這一次的偽製案為什麼後來會不成功就是國內廠商他自己沒有辦法整合那每一家就各自堅持自己的部分他沒有辦法去"},{"start":9506.457,"end":9531.692,"text":"變成一個team去把它整合起來所以這次的委制案才失敗但是我們現在開的限制性招標我們是希望你在國內自治的比率越高我給你的評分加權就相對越高用這樣子來扶植我國內的產業但是又不會去妨礙國外更先進的技術引進我國內好 謝謝所以我們建議修成就是由經濟部來協助國內產業發展無人機反制系統這樣子"},{"start":9535.902,"end":9536.162,"text":"可以嗎?可以"},{"start":9561.231,"end":9581.928,"text":"只要我們不要百分之百排除代理商的技術引進我當然你們絕對沒有辦法接那個目前來講一定是代理商啦就我們要求代理商剛剛我講的就是國內設廠不然就是你要跟我們的國內廠商做產業合作跟技術引轉嘛經濟部能不能同意啊想發順道頒禮齁"},{"start":9586.175,"end":9586.815,"text":"拜託我們來修。"},{"start":9608.513,"end":9635.162,"text":"我跟網友報告這兩個路徑一個就是國內的廠商自行開發另外一條路徑就是主席講的是說可以跟代理商合作這兩個路徑一定要同時進行剛剛主席講的代理商合作裡面他還要求說你要有計轉或者是一定要有這個相關的代理商要跟我們有怎麼樣的做法你要不要把文字先聽清楚確定是怎麼樣的文字有 剛才那個文字思考一下 來"},{"start":9636.28,"end":9651.431,"text":"因為我知道完全用否決代理商你們絕對會反對我有覆案參考一下文字修正就是加注後面那些我建議可以加反要求國防部未來除尋求國內製造"},{"start":9654.813,"end":9663.343,"text":"之外可請求代理商與國內合格廠商進行產業合作及相互投資並落實技術規範。"},{"start":9671.952,"end":9672.873,"text":"第二案請議事人員宣讀。"},{"start":9693.039,"end":9710.376,"text":"臨時提案第二案,國防部為突破木兵之困境及建立培育文武兼備人才之教育模式,清華大學與國防部多次協調綜合成立同意成立國防學士班計劃。2019年遭受優秀高中畢業生從軍報國,2020年成功大學等"},{"start":9712.618,"end":9734.852,"text":"頂尖大學也陸續加入,開啟了我國大學孟斌新業,為因招生人數不如計劃預期。國防部已發函各大學審視國防學士班招生狀況,並有學校已規劃明年度停止辦理國防學士班招生。目前正在辦理國防學士班的清華、成大、中興三校均向國防部表達了"},{"start":9736.553,"end":9764.371,"text":"續辦意願,極力爭取,隨國防部今年九月獲同意續辦,卻於十一月又來函勒令停招,這部已合併招生,學校亦已宣傳招生,為避免侵害信賴保護原則,培育文武兼備人才及多元募兵之意旨,免要求國防部針對同意續辦之學校,應繼續辦理國防學士班計劃。提案人委員廖婉如、陳以信、吳思淮、楊瓊英、李德維等。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":9765.9,"end":9791.792,"text":"國防部有沒有意見跟委員報告他這裡面有提到說九月同一續辦這個部分其實他們我們今年在六月七號的時候發函到各學校有七所學校其中四所學校表達意願他們不願意辦的只剩下中興、成功跟清華他們願意試辦那後來我們整個做完怎麼跟你報告相反啊清華、中興跟成功是不要"},{"start":9792.677,"end":9796.353,"text":"沒有中興、成功跟清華他們這三所事項要續辦的"},{"start":9799.22,"end":9821.538,"text":"對,那這三所後來我們整個檢討之後成效不佳而且它跟ROTC的重複性很高它完全可以用ROTC的模式來進入軍中所以說我們有去發函給這三所大學希望能夠去跟他們做一個說明那中興大學後來也願意配合國防部的政策停止不辦理了"},{"start":9823.88,"end":9850.96,"text":"那清華跟成大呢他們在報紙所刊的那些並不是事實那副校長講的是假話對,那不是我在這邊非常負責任跟委員報告我們所有的紀錄都有非常清楚的紀錄他們一直一言再言就是一直在言到12月底那所有的招生簡章是在12月初到1月才會招生簡章出來所以說他現在根本都還沒有開始招生"},{"start":9851.721,"end":9876.512,"text":"他必須要在招生檢章出來在1月20號明年1月20號學測之後才會開始招生也就是說113年所有的學生並沒有開始招生那我們檢討了這些所有的經過之後我們決定113年停招那後續如果說還有意願想從軍的都可以循ROTC的模式進入軍中"},{"start":9883.169,"end":9905.834,"text":"主席主席我可以發言嗎?可以我覺得主席跟一些委員的提案其實是相當的積極跟正面那大家都知道開這個國防學士班跟所謂的ROTC最重要是裡面的教學的內容並不是表示"},{"start":9909.267,"end":9930.24,"text":"並不是表示說這些所謂的文人大學就是不是軍事院校這些文人大學的學校沒有這個意願更何況我們現在的這個國防部不是只有針對職業軍人或是志願裔未來有很多包括說可以到中科院或是可以到這個理工科系為主的包括什麼無人機也好或是飛彈等等這些"},{"start":9931.281,"end":9952.747,"text":"如果可以從這三、四所學校裡面可以得到更先進的一些計畫或者是教學的方向的話其實都可行我們只要在限制招生的條件上面不要說你一定要去參加以後一定要當志願役所以我覺得那個主席你的提案可不可以就是只有在最後應繼續積極溝通辦理國防學士班計畫"},{"start":9956.608,"end":9984.2,"text":"因為那個我不認為說有一些大學的副校長講的話是偏頗的可能在溝通上面出現一些狀況那主席也非常了解這中間的差距所以我認為說第一個我們當時有包括我們立法院的這個外交國防委員會都希望國防部可以跟這些所謂的頂尖大學一起來合作但是合作的開辦的這個科目或是教學的這個對象其實是可以再多做溝通的"},{"start":9984.78,"end":9995.134,"text":"所以不要說就當成說我們就不辦就好了我想這樣反而不好會斷掉我們原來跟這個文人尤其是有基本的頂尖科研的這個學校裡面合作的機會以上"},{"start":9996.15,"end":10017.716,"text":"我同意那個劉委員的修正方式你針對內容的修正方式主席我可以這邊主席其實我是請坐可以建議來就是也結合剛才那個劉思芳委員的建議我是建議就加改一個字就好了最後兩句就是嚴要求國防部針對同意續辦的學校嚴議繼續辦理國防學士班計劃這樣就好了吧"},{"start":10022.777,"end":10022.957,"text":"國防部"},{"start":10039.47,"end":10063.192,"text":"跟委員說明啊,我們正期班的招募成效103%,ROTC 135%,專業軍官班109%,但是整個國防學士班的招募的狀況就33%,扣掉21個退學之後只剩下22%,那個效果,整個成本效益跟招募的效果真的是...我是提案"},{"start":10063.812,"end":10081.989,"text":"我只留一條路你們未來可以走我沒有要求你們你們跟他說停辦了現在沒有要求你今天明年113年一定要招嘛但是我是覺得嚴義對不對留一個未來國防那個那個學士班的話還是或許可行嘛"},{"start":10083.591,"end":10109.412,"text":"我說你們誘因不足嘛而且那個設計的方式不對啊他如果國防學士班他不想念的時候連學籍都沒有他當然不敢報名啊因為很多人你們都很多不適應的退伍了他們怎麼知道我念了國防學士班能不能練得完呢對不對所以我是覺得主要是設計上也有一點機制上的問題不然的話"},{"start":10111.474,"end":10138.107,"text":"教學合作班為什麼理工學院那個都非常踴躍?雙學位他們多踴躍啊?對不對?好不好?我是覺得改延逸可以嗎?委員那我們最後提一個意見啊就是倒數第二行原要求改成原建議國防部那後面就是建議延逸都可以啊對然後繼續就是應繼續就委員所剛所我也是改兩個字而已你們要延逸還是建議?延逸延逸比較好啦好?建議"},{"start":10141.854,"end":10142.995,"text":"第一案先唸"},{"start":10171.67,"end":10174.732,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":10208.749,"end":10219.772,"text":"第二案協商結果,原要求國防部針對同一續班之學校研議繼續辦理國防學士班計畫。其餘均遭原提案通過。"},{"start":10241.258,"end":10241.618,"text":"主席"},{"start":10251.792,"end":10274.692,"text":"宣讀修正之文字,為免失去扶植國內相關產業發展之本意,應要求國防部除採購國內自製產品,若採購國外現貨,應要求代理商與國內合格廠商進行產業合作及相互投資並落實技術轉移,其他同原提案通過。"},{"start":10277.674,"end":10288.012,"text":"令第一段第三行陸軍司令部已與解約改為陸軍司令部已與終止合約其他造源提案通過。全讀完畢。"},{"start":10288.749,"end":10298.412,"text":"好,各位委員我們見。好,劉委員,這個...剛剛那個無煙機防制那個齁,那個為了讓它能夠更確實落實,我們建立這樣,反要求國防部除採購國內產製產品外,如是採購國外現貨應要...欸,如是採購國外貨品應要求落實在地化組裝或與國內廠商合作。"},{"start":10316.917,"end":10326.159,"text":"除國防部採購國內自製產品,要加國防部就是了?對,反而要求國防部除採購國內產製產品外,如系採購國外貨品應要求落實在地化組裝或與國內廠商合作。"},{"start":10345.592,"end":10347.593,"text":"國內自治改產制國內產制產品若產品外再加一個外這個字然後再逗點"},{"start":10368.001,"end":10368.661,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":10397.879,"end":10400.641,"text":"組裝或與國內廠商合作,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":10419.89,"end":10420.31,"text":"主席"},{"start":10446.778,"end":10446.978,"text":"主席"},{"start":10469.369,"end":10496.619,"text":"我來講一下在臨時提案裡面有寫到工程會其實工程會它是處理有關政府採購法的部分所以它是不是會納入所謂的無人機反制系統專案小組因為它不可能求員兼裁判所以這個工程會其實放進去是比較奇怪然後第二個就是國科會上個禮拜也公布了說我們台灣的關鍵基礎設施或是關鍵基礎的部分它是要受限的"},{"start":10497.239,"end":10520.534,"text":"能不能跟國外廠商合作其實這些有關的限制條件都要放進去因為我們這邊講的無人機啊應該不是指一般的商用或者是遊戲用的無人機應該是軍用商規或是軍用軍規所以應該有更嚴格的限制不能就是這樣說我們可以這樣做這樣做我是覺得一定要符合台灣國內的法治基礎還有我們符合對國家安全的需求才可以我認為要加上這樣的限制條件比較合法所以按照經濟部提的內容嗎"},{"start":10527.728,"end":10535.756,"text":"那如果說像剛才委員提的話我們後面說要與廠商、國內廠商合作並遵守相關法令規定"},{"start":10544.011,"end":10566.939,"text":"原來你們的那個那個產業發展條例裡面就有相關法律規定我們要求的是要落實剛剛那個林委員講的是講那個關鍵技術現在最近我跟你講關鍵技術就是那個我們今天只要審的國防產業發展條例裡面根本你們不敢動因為計轉完全是零啦很難啦尤其是軍購的東西"},{"start":10572.247,"end":10594.719,"text":"我是覺得可以做一些那個經濟部你如果說這樣寫我們是能接受啦一定要跟國內廠商合作嘛阿不管是我們學他他學我們都一樣阿在地組裝也可以啦把代理商刪掉啦因為代理商看起來不太像是一個那個產製的廠商因為第一段有代理商然後再念一次來"},{"start":10601.505,"end":10601.785,"text":"國防部部長"},{"start":10638.163,"end":10660.341,"text":"我覺得法律規定那個原來就有法律規定的我們在體驗當中也不用寫到什麼法律規定主席我這邊我們是不是最後一段乾脆就把它刪掉好不好哪一段就是為免失去扶植國內產業發展本意我整段就是不用了嗎就留先第一段跟第二段"},{"start":10662.586,"end":10683.904,"text":"對原意這樣子我覺得這樣是否因為裡面還討論到其實這一次我們這個外導無人機的問題其實不是國防部也不是中科院其實問題出在經濟部啊我們現在搞這麼久拖這麼久那我們當時候規格也好或是其實技術技術技術技術全部都有那是廠商跟廠商之間不整合"},{"start":10684.565,"end":10708.268,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":10708.396,"end":10737.022,"text":"我們也不用去討論到國外了因為這國內就可以,國內的技術都夠問題出在於我們的政和啊經濟部在這件事情上面其實你責任是最大的耶我跟委員報告你現在你知道整個會期中科院跟國防部都被白罵了你知道嗎我跟委員報告我們是推薦世家有能力的廠商到國防部國防部後面怎麼進行採購那個是國防部在主責"},{"start":10740.387,"end":10755.179,"text":"那你為什麼現在招標是公開呢?除了納斯加之外其他經過你們推薦的,沒有經過你們推薦的可以來招標呢?你如果當時候願意推薦他,他就願意可以整合啊。這些東西當時候就整合不出來嘛。"},{"start":10756.977,"end":10784.717,"text":"報告委員那整合的事情後來我們本來是推薦世嘉是由仿照那個前面無人機是各建立個別分開招標我必須要講啦我也知道大家都努力為了這個國家好但這件事情這件事情搞太久了搞太久了好不好那沒關係文字上面這個臨時提案我請教一下召委這邊我們是否就留第一段跟第二段第三段感覺起來好像又開了一個空間出來"},{"start":10786.676,"end":10792.475,"text":"因為國內就可以處理了國內如果可以處理就已經原型機造出來了"},{"start":10799.608,"end":10817.995,"text":"主席,不好意思,我再問一下次長。就是說剛才聽經濟部的說法,是說原來經濟部推薦給國防部4家的時候是認為這4家都有能力來完成這個業務,這樣的一個要求嘛。是國防部自己把它要求是4家整合成兩個團隊的?沒錯。那國防部為什麼沒事要去幹這件事情幹什麼?"},{"start":10819.67,"end":10844.329,"text":"然後弄完之後然後最後弄不出來所以原來經濟部的意思是認為這四家各別都能夠延期就是做出這樣的反腐人就反而延期防禦的系統然後最後國防部再各別來評審你的建議原來是這樣子嗎?國防部有開個規格給我們然後我們由經濟部、國防部還有國科會跟工程會組了一個專案小組然後找專家去審查完之後"},{"start":10845.089,"end":10845.529,"text":"三、審查本院"},{"start":10863.854,"end":10870.621,"text":"因為經濟部的這個評估啊,這些廠商啊,原本這四家廠商,他沒有一家是完全全能力的。"},{"start":10887.837,"end":10888.057,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":10903.729,"end":10924.77,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":10924.77,"end":10954.77,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10955.219,"end":10980.973,"text":"因為你們現在把它解約了嘛對你們有沒有去問另外一組你們有沒有去問另外那兩家有沒有意願來做這個事情因為原來是科研案嘛對不對是一個委託研究案對啊就研究案嘛你們有沒有去問因為部長在現場是答應我們說那不然的話就是另外也鼓勵另外那兩家也參與啊不然一定很難說的啊可是過了一個禮拜之後你們案子公告解約啊我也不曉得為什麼"},{"start":10982.318,"end":11009.835,"text":"我們就是搞不清楚為什麼現在變成公開招標那我是覺得公開招標只要我們能獲得都可以但是呢這些技術如果每一家廠商標到的你有一些技術know how需要去做合作的因為兩兩合作都弄不出來的話我相信一定有一些關鍵技術嘛那一定要在地組裝經濟部說要在地組裝或國內廠商合作我們都沒有意見"},{"start":11011.724,"end":11015.753,"text":"至少相輔相成嘛,我們有一些技術移轉的內容"},{"start":11017.386,"end":11043.397,"text":"那兩兩,不管是那四家經濟部推薦的,到底按照國防部要求的資格是OK的,但是你要叫他們合作生產就都有問題啊,才會解約嘛。報委員,所以說後續的量產案我們就沒有去綁住,說用兩兩或是哪幾家廠商相互的合作,就是開放式的。簡單講他們就是不合作嘛。"},{"start":11043.717,"end":11045.779,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":11058.872,"end":11059.112,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":11075.923,"end":11090.44,"text":"對不對,不管你用什麼方式,當然用代理商要取消掉,不要用代理商不好聽也沒有關係,就是希望說你們國內廠商引進的國外的技術也能做計轉,也能合作,也能在地生產就好了。"},{"start":11092.688,"end":11111.113,"text":"主席,我請教一下我們第三段要留嗎?還是,我的認知啦,就是說這個,最後反而應該,真正應該要求的是時間啦,是時間啦。時間他們有預算壓力齁,為免失據,你說為免失據扶植國內生產,這個要拿掉嗎?對,按照經濟部這個,我是覺得可以吧。"},{"start":11116.334,"end":11141.22,"text":"主席,我可以建議了。坦白講,我們也沒那麼偉大啦,通過一個決議你們馬上就生得出來啦。那事實上這只是一個我們地產商的表態,要求你們能夠落實相關的,因為國內顯然這條路走不出去了嘛,都走不出一條路出來嘛。那如果再用代理商或是進口的方式能夠盡量的來,因為這樣來協助我們國內廠商的研發能力嘛。那我覺得這個修改後的條文,這個文字我覺得是主席的"},{"start":11141.98,"end":11142.28,"text":"國防部部長"},{"start":11173.108,"end":11174.909,"text":"因為我們今天早上吐人家"},{"start":11776.115,"end":11779.756,"text":"好,我們繼續開會。接下來請蔡司應委員詢答。謝謝主席。能不能請我們部長就備群台。好,邱部長請。"},{"start":11811.852,"end":11831.749,"text":"陳義綺"},{"start":11832.552,"end":11847.517,"text":"蕭祥雲、謝炳成、謝孟蘇、何姓盧、洪瑞陽、陸軍方、康義兵、胡志鵬、劉立啟。大概都在陸軍的相關單位。我為什麼這樣講的原因是因為這個事情都是最近這兩年"},{"start":11859.042,"end":11887.442,"text":"發生了一個狀況我先請問一下部長,這個案子是誰發現的?就我們官兵自己發覺有異議以後就報告然後這個起案就往下追,追出來什麼時候立案的?五月份我們今年五月掌握有不法事證我們就起案了然後你們有一個國安局嗎?有一個調查局那為什麼我問到調查局是說他們起案的不是你們起案的?"},{"start":11888.902,"end":11901.712,"text":"因為我們有接獲檢舉國安單位也有接獲檢舉我的了解是好像部長你要確認一下我了解到好像是檢調先了解這個案子之後才回過來通知國防部的相關單位的"},{"start":11903.063,"end":11906.805,"text":"我覺得這很重要,部長。你沒有要搶哪個先後,可是就我一個國務院的立場來看,我覺得這件事情很嚴重。所謂的很嚴重,第一個是軍中有保防系統。"},{"start":11929.073,"end":11948.194,"text":"他不是一個人欸他是一個蠻長的這樣的一個整體的這樣的一個共諜案如果不是軍中保防先發現的話而是由法務部調查局、桃園市調處跟國安工作站先來發現的話我覺得這問題很嚴重啊那我先發覺的我請我們這個保安局處處長"},{"start":11951.868,"end":11976.156,"text":"像委員報告我們在110年的時候國安單位有接獲到通報有一個檢舉人有檢獲到另外一條的線索那本部呢在110年有相關一條線索兩個我們報請國安局統合之後發現這兩個案的線索是有關聯性所以一起合併辦理來共同偵辦以上這是你的說明啦但是我理解到跟你完全顛倒"},{"start":11977.489,"end":11979.491,"text":"這件案子裡面其中幾個比較嚴重的,部長您內容都看過了沒有?"},{"start":11993.765,"end":12011.399,"text":"我覺得部長可以詳細看一下檢方的起訴書內容你們有提到什麼事情?提到化學兵的哨校把化學兵的相關編制表送給中國其中有一位謝孟蘇還跟中國講好了要駕駛CH-47"},{"start":12016.138,"end":12023.581,"text":"逃到中國去啊然後中間還到泰國去跟他們談過這些相關的事情然後呢還發虛擬貨幣給他然後呢還有一個何姓盧花防部的少校作戰官把花東防衛的國安計畫傳給中國還有一個洪瑞揚一零四旅的把陸軍司令部的訓練計畫等等送到中國去"},{"start":12045.882,"end":12061.175,"text":"還有一個叫抗疫兵的經防部的守衛大隊的情報官把金門作戰計畫的相關資料送到中國這些資料在起訴書寫得非常清楚然後呢有些都是你們核定的極機密120年以後才能夠解密的這真的是一個很軍中很嚴重的一個醜聞案因為這麼多人欸不是只有一個欸"},{"start":12073.911,"end":12087.235,"text":"透過一個所謂的陳玉琦他就可以聯絡到這麼多人有化學兵科的有航特部的、花防部的、軍防部的、裝甲旅的還有台南守備隊部長我覺得這個不是說我大概看過這段內容就好了我就要嚴查這件事情啊真的是要嚴查這件事情"},{"start":12103.347,"end":12126.44,"text":"紀書書裡面寫了非常多我看完之後真的是驚心動魄這個寫小說都沒有那麼會寫啊所以我為什麼第一個問題先問部長說這案子是誰發掘的如果今天國防部在這個事情是第二個後面才知道的而是從檢調法務部調查局跟國安公傳先了解的話"},{"start":12127.886,"end":12151.782,"text":"我們應該去了解到說我們軍中建立的這些保防的體系為什麼會這樣子一個中校的分隊長已經跟人家談到什麼時候要駕駛這個直升機過去了裡面有沒有人知道這件事情有沒有人知道這件事情國防部有第一時間就把位置換掉嗎然後移請調查嗎"},{"start":12153.499,"end":12181.049,"text":"還是檢調直接衝到營區裡面去抓人把人帶走了我們才知道說哦原來這個人有涉案或者是說軍防部的或者是我們那個花防部的把資料都送出去而且用什麼用telegram的軟體送出去我們不是軍中保防強調手機都不需要做管制嗎部長這個件事情我們以前都談過嘛為什麼他會用了這些東西還有用虛擬貨幣在使用"},{"start":12183.24,"end":12210.022,"text":"然後有規定營區不能帶其他非相關的手機都要保在都要保存起來嘛這裡面寫得很清楚啊對岸的中國相關人員還把特別的手機交給這些人他用這些特別的手機來翻拍然後還有人還裡面還寫到什麼還寫到說我們裡面有很多的相關的保管資料的軍官沒有注意資料就外洩出去了我不曉得是真的沒有注意還是故意沒有注意啊"},{"start":12213.615,"end":12240.435,"text":"我就問部長一件事情你說你有了解來你們這個案子到目前為止你們調查之後有多少極機密的案件需要重新修正我跟委員報告我們當初審查以後一有這種狀況我們第一個一送法辦以外先做一個職務調整該要撤就撤了這些人是被調查以後才法辦還是之前就先發掘以後一方面送辦再一方面我們行政局開始處理那這樣好部長你這樣講我想請教你一個問題啊那個謝孟蘇"},{"start":12243.402,"end":12267.467,"text":"是被剪掉逮捕之後才調整單位還是之前就調整單位?先調整吧。先調整。好,那第二個何信如勒?要一個一個講啊。你們知道嗎?我就問啊。是先調整單位還是先直接已經被逮捕之後才調整單位?知不知道?先調整了嗎?就你們這個叫...何信如啊。花防部少校座三官啊。"},{"start":12268.483,"end":12295.777,"text":"各位委員報告在這個獲悉保防安全他們相關的報告之後那我們是要不可以先有任何的動作那因為整個已經是進入減調的階段那但是所以你的意思是說你們已經知道他有問題但是你們沒有動他的職務就對了我們的意思是這樣子那為什麼剛才講了一個航特部就說先調職這又邏輯不通了吧"},{"start":12296.598,"end":12297.459,"text":"國防部首備大隊抗議兵呢?"},{"start":12320.902,"end":12336.908,"text":"包委員,我們在調查的過程當中有做相關的損害管控,每個個案不一樣,那方便的話我們會後派人跟你做說明。目前檢調查到的,我只講查到的,沒查到的我不知道,查到的機密跟極機密的部分總共多少件?你們有統計吧?有嗎?我只問總共多少件?"},{"start":12342.93,"end":12347.153,"text":"因為目前起訴之後現在高等法院還在偵查當中。"},{"start":12375.287,"end":12382.291,"text":"否則你怎麼損壞空管呢?國防部長我問到這邊我時間到了齁。國防部的人那麼多啦齁。我們每一個單位都有每個人負責的工作。"},{"start":12398.241,"end":12417.334,"text":"那我剛剛就提到就是說這個裡面有一些軍中的保防是重要的一件事情有沒有落實到營區的管理這是重要的事情比如像剛剛我們提到的為什麼telegram或有其他手機會帶到營區裡面去而且裡面講的是所謂的作戰官、情報官這個理論上是最應該要克尊相關我們規定的職務的人馬"},{"start":12418.655,"end":12446.311,"text":"好,那這些人他本身都違法的話那代表什麼?代表他的主觀觀可能會平常沒有在注意這件事情嘛那我想這些就是我們要了解的狀況第二個狀況是事情發生之後國安檢調的相關單位在調查完之後都有把這些檢調的起訴書寫出來我包括我們自己內部的調查裡面就要非常的清楚知道我有多少極機密的案件我有多少機密的案件有可能外洩甚至其實是不只的啊"},{"start":12447.15,"end":12466.423,"text":"因為他可能只講了這五個可能有六個、七個、八個另外的我們沒找到這些相關涉案的字就不講出來啊那在這種情況之下各單位你要不要重新修正這些都要做的事情嘛那我剛剛只是問了一個問題說有幾件案子要修正好,那也許覺得這又是機密了我只是說檢調期率上明天有寫多少件了啊"},{"start":12467.366,"end":12487.948,"text":"好,拜託部長,這件事情,從事情發生,剛好都是在任內的事情發生的,從110年開始,您就任部長之後開始錄製的這件事情發生,我認為這是非常重要的一件事情。那我也拜託部長,把這個起訴書的內容延期清楚。我的理解啦,你們現在去調相關的整個的資料應該是可以調得到啦。"},{"start":12489.371,"end":12516.235,"text":"我建議你們把除了起訴書之外相關檢調的偵查報告內容還有加上我們國防部自己內部調查都把它彙整清楚因為我覺得這個案子實在太誇張太嚴重了裡面幾個小兵小官士官跟阿兵哥說拍影片我覺得那就算了裡面有很多的校級軍官跟衛級軍官就拍了我們的重要的集機秘密資料把它傳給中國去這真的是很莫名其妙的事情啊"},{"start":12517.868,"end":12531.396,"text":"所以我要如果沒有發現的不曉得有多少件所以拜託部長這件事情好好的瞭解調查清楚以上謝謝謝謝蔡委員接下來請林靜儀委員詢答好謝謝謝謝主席我們麻煩國防部邱部長邱部長請"},{"start":12556.448,"end":12579.932,"text":"民眾對於我們的國防是越來越關注但是我也相信之前包含你還有退伏會我們的主委都說多數的都是忠心為國家的只有少數的害群之馬可是如果害群之馬的案件一直頻繁的出現而且沒有辦法很快的速度讓民眾看到軍方的決心的話那事情就很麻煩了"},{"start":12581.453,"end":12601.051,"text":"所以剛剛蔡師傑委員講的是一個共諜案我現在還有一個另外一個是國防大學的泄密案那國防大學這個案子這個教授他主持的是我們先進系統工程研究中心尤其是牽涉到我國非常重要這些相關的精密的這個部件精密的這些系統研究"},{"start":12601.992,"end":12626.915,"text":"但是根據報導的調查現在出來的資料當然你們等一下一定會講說調查當中啦我先看現在他的狀況是說他掌管的這些產業需求跟科技整合然後在然後自己在開民間公司開民間公司跟中國技術合作然後董事會在學校裡面開而且這個過程以媒體報導的話是十年啊"},{"start":12628.308,"end":12647.717,"text":"那我很意外的事情是說一個我們國防大學掌管我們這麼多重要產業需求跟系統研發的這個所謂計劃主持人他可以在外面開公司這個公司跟中國有關係跟中國有合作而且他的公司董事會在校內召開這個學校內部控管是怎麼控管的"},{"start":12648.721,"end":12678.073,"text":"所以我跟委員報告這的確啊說我們要很大一個疏忽啊只是檢討但我跟同仁講不講光檢討就了了我作為已經移送法辦了例外的行政調查行政懲處我們同步在做這一位他移送法辦嘛對不對那行政懲處對校內其他相關人員有沒有行政懲處一定要行政懲處我們把這個相關人員從他主觀領導職到他業管的幕僚通通抓出來那該辦就辦吧不是部長那如果"},{"start":12678.593,"end":12681.234,"text":"所以這東西又很嚴重,所以今天早上我特別有強調這一點"},{"start":12702.023,"end":12702.744,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":12716.66,"end":12737.058,"text":"對於你對於很多事情態度都很強硬可是這個十年這樣子你不能簡單說我們都還要追嘛這個就已經都在查了嘛不能這麼簡單講我對這件事情也都很強硬啊所以他本來沒有要送法班我叫你不要囉嗦先送法班再講本來沒有要送法班是什麼意思本來要檢討查明以後再這樣子我想那要等什麼勒"},{"start":12738.553,"end":12739.914,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":12755.367,"end":12773.188,"text":"但是各位在軍方服務嘛,我們在軍事系統裡面這麼多重要的機密在他手上,你等到來,你等到一個程度我們都不知道要出去多少,再來這個東西會不會消滅掉一些相關的機證嘛。那我再請問回來,現在他手頭上賞管的這些相關的資料這10年,你們現在手頭上掌握有沒有東西跑出去?"},{"start":12774.892,"end":12797.514,"text":"現在有查嗎?現在最新的這些資料跑出多少東西了?各位委員 報告他目前從96年到今年為止還有68件的研究案但目前查查都是沒有洩漏出去但是我們還是會請警教單位來沒有洩漏出去他手上 他那麼乾淨這邊有研究案這邊開公司公司這邊跟中國有合作我分得那麼清楚給中國一些簡單的小東西然後我自己這邊研究國家大的東西這麼厲害?"},{"start":12799.06,"end":12815.956,"text":"根委員報告他在接那個研究案的時候都是會簽署保密協定而且他的研究的等級是屬於一個初步的一個學術研究一個範圍是跟國家機密那個國家科技機密是不會有什麼叫做初步的研究範圍可以解釋一下嗎"},{"start":12818.672,"end":12837.503,"text":"所以你們講說它是一個先進系統工程研究中心根本沒有先進就對了你那意思是這樣子報告委員有關於學校或者相關的研究機構接的這個相關的研究案按照我們整個科技備變水準的等級總共分成九級其中第一級到第三級都叫做基礎研究"},{"start":12838.243,"end":12842.164,"text":"他這邊承包國家很多研究案欸所以你們這個研究案都是最基礎的都是沒有先進製程的都是沒有前瞻性的"},{"start":12864.002,"end":12866.703,"text":"所以你們現在調查的資料裡面你們現在的意思就是說你們只調查的事情是他不應該違法兼職這樣子而已?"},{"start":12880.43,"end":12883.913,"text":"部長,我請問的事情是他現在所參與的案子裡面有沒有哪一些你們現在競速的正在往下去"},{"start":12908.931,"end":12937.239,"text":"主段或者是知道哪些東西已經洩露出去了,你們手上有沒有這樣的記錄跟資料?委員現在這68案經過查都是屬於三級以下,但是他還牽扯到兩部分,第一個有沒有把這些的成果轉成他私人的用,或者是甚至跟剛剛講對岸的相關關係,這個要查。那第二個就是他有關於跟大陸人士的接觸這些相關爭議專案的部分,這也是後面要查查的重點。"},{"start":12937.739,"end":12940.76,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":12959.287,"end":12979.705,"text":"我們希望你們自己在這邊有一個你們自己的系統很快的、盡速的、最快的速度去把這些可能的風險去做調查或者是控管這個案子我最不能接受的是整整十年你如果說這一兩年你們整個系統上還抓不到原來是最近的事情我不會怪你們的怪到這麼嚴重你整整十年的話那這樣子"},{"start":12980.786,"end":13003.775,"text":"大家來講你跟我那麼輕鬆講說沒有啦他這68案都很簡單的案子我覺得這樣不能接受這就是他的態度上面來講表示這個人態度有問題啊我們從來沒有講很輕鬆啊這樣也敷衍我們把這個人看得很嚴重你們看得很嚴重只是你現在告訴我們說他接觸到都不是重要的事情我就問幹部我們整個哪個人能夠接受這種狀況沒有輕鬆那該辦人辦人嘛我們現在重辦就要槍斃掉我們也期望這樣子"},{"start":13010.273,"end":13016.615,"text":"部長你在國會上面你這樣直接講槍斃掉這三個字我想你這個是宣誓性發言吧?對我們的認識來講的話主語的變叛國嘛這不就叛國嗎?我們這麼多的案子裡面我們都不斷提醒你們民眾對你們的觀感那你現在講叛國一旦我們那時候跟你講說有些事情有叛國的風險你又講的說沒有你認為沒有?"},{"start":13033.542,"end":13046.225,"text":"我沒講我沒有認為沒有。這個每一樣事情我要查證。在這種事情陳五剛委員講的十年了,我也沒辦法交代啊。所以我認為講完全要依法就辦,而且辦得越重越好。"},{"start":13047.299,"end":13074.176,"text":"在辦得越重越好的過程裡面其實也需要你們軍方去在這個過程中你們要提出相關的證據相關的資訊而且你們要提出相關的態度在這個過程還是要講辦得越重越好當然是這樣子你現在這樣講但是到時候在辦的時候你們提出來的證據是不是能夠讓他辦得越重越好是我們非常疑惑的事情好我最後再給我一點點時間因為我還是很關注我們在所謂替代一教招的部分我知道替代一教招是屬於內政部管理但是我先在這邊請問一下部長"},{"start":13075.217,"end":13083.429,"text":"提待役到時候提待役的教招或提待役的訓練最終也是希望能夠補強我們的全民動員的時候的這個相關的軍事戰備能力嘛對不對部長"},{"start":13087.038,"end":13104.475,"text":"我知道沒有在軍中啊一旦發生戰亂或者是嚴重的危機的時候就像水災的時候通常也是請軍方來幫助民眾嘛那回過頭來我們現在講一旦國家發生緊急危難的時候不會全部都是軍人在做事嘛"},{"start":13105.416,"end":13122.221,"text":"對不對?你們在全民動員裡面有全民動員這件事情就是全部的人民都要來幫助國家保護國家嘛所以我現在請問你的議題是說站在當緊急狀況之下全部的人民都來一起協助軍人保護國家的時候有一群人叫替代役嘛是吧?"},{"start":13123.449,"end":13148.674,"text":"他平常不是你管 我知道嘛 我要問內政部嘛但是我現在問你的事情是站在國防部的立場全部的人一起來保護國家你們是不是也至少會期待說那我有一塊是什麼我國防部沒辦法做的是替代役來幫我們處理的嘛 應該是吧是嘛 我就問你這句話而已嘛那好 那我講是嘛那我請問說這個時候你們在國防部的認知裡面替代役的這一批"},{"start":13150.049,"end":13169.208,"text":"他們能夠協助的是哪些事?你們期待他們幫你們補足你們國防體系、國軍體系沒有辦法補足的哪些事?除了作戰以外,任何對我們只要能夠把我們主任務、作戰任務完全由國軍來支援、來做,不要再去扯到別的地方去,還有我們派人的,我都樂見啊。"},{"start":13171.59,"end":13195.907,"text":"我一直強調我想這個權動署在這邊我這兩年一直在問的事情是如果國防部不能很清楚的來協助其他權動相關的部會去提出說我國防部負責這些事情某一件事情要麻煩你麻煩你某一個部會成為我們的後援back up我們如果沒有辦法出現這麼明確的一個訊息的話那這些相關部會就是自己想辦法在那邊做嘛我為什麼要這樣問那個副司長嘛醫生司"},{"start":13200.572,"end":13214.61,"text":"我先請問你們的替代役叫招著重EMT救護能力所以你們的假設是說一旦發生緊急戰端或者是緊急的這些狀況我們的替代役我們最缺的是醫療人員是不是?"},{"start":13215.831,"end":13243.792,"text":"我想我們這個部分替代的部分就是做後勤的輔助性工作對,所以你說你們手中EMT嘛我請問所以你們的意思就是說一旦發生這些事情全台灣當時最缺乏的是整個整個在軍方最需要的後援是EMT嗎我們這個部分我們把替代的備役分成兩組治安維護組跟防災救護組那防災救護組他就是負責災害的搶救跟緊急救護的部分"},{"start":13244.833,"end":13269.429,"text":"那災害搶救在你們的訓練裡面你們怎麼做?所以呢我們災害救護的部分跟緊急救護的部分所以我們著重EMT-1就是緊急救護因為他們從109年開始他們每個替代人在成功年已經取得了EMT-1的證照像這一次我們109到現在3年因為前面疫情的關係我們沒辦法把他招回來訓練112年已經滿3年了我們招回來就是讓他的緊急救護證照的技術"},{"start":13275.853,"end":13288.439,"text":"我沒有反對大家都學會緊急照護我現在問的事情是你們把替代役招回來訓練EMT-1這裡面有一些人他可能已經取得相關的智能了我們現在有一些人在自訓"},{"start":13289.64,"end":13303.614,"text":"第二個事情是,他們訓練你的重點放在這裡,所以你期待他們未來一旦發生狀況的時候,他們就會來做這件事情的。你們對於替代役的認知跟概念是希望他們這麼做。你們當初在招替代役的時候全部都是醫療替代役嗎?"},{"start":13304.568,"end":13306.869,"text":"我現在是看到你們在媒體上說你們都做EMT-1"},{"start":13321.903,"end":13344.918,"text":"我想我們今年做的主要的部分就是跟委員報告就是說因為我們一百...我最後講一件事情因為我超過時間我不要delay大家的時間我講一個事情啦今年台中我們也做了相關的這個外安演習嘛對不對我也有去親自去看我也看了大家很認真沒有錯一旦緊急狀況之下好那個什麼馬上設立那個分類戰救傷這個什麼我們講的減傷分類戰減傷分類戰馬上分類分一分救護車去醫院了對不對"},{"start":13352.504,"end":13371.179,"text":"請問一下,假設我們今天發生戰災,醫院是正常運作嗎?我先問你,你用一個一般人腦袋告訴我,發生戰災的時候醫院是正常運作嗎?所以你認為這種狀況之下,因有因有送去醫院,他們就能夠正常的被運作、被照顧嗎?"},{"start":13375.496,"end":13387.222,"text":"大家不要只看到你們覺得我這樣講我再次強調替代役這一邊我們要把人家回來招訓我們一直強調很重要第一他們要清楚知道他們怎麼跟國防部配合"},{"start":13388.328,"end":13416.459,"text":"我一直強調所以我今天全動數署長也在這部長也在這我已經講非常多次了國防部不要一個態度說我一旦發生事情你們就小心我們自己會把自己的國家保護好我們相信你們會把國家保護好我們希望的是相關的其他人員不但不要添亂還可以成為你們的back up那這個時候你們就必須要清楚讓各部會知道我們平常有什麼人可以用一旦發生事情的時候這些人會出來承擔原來社會正常運作之下的什麼位置"},{"start":13417.748,"end":13432.468,"text":"所以不要自己想想說那我們就來訓練EMT-1好了這個到時候我就問你嘛一旦發生這種狀況你EMT-1這些首位後輩他們都會乖乖出來當EMT-1嗎?然後乖乖出來當EMT-1檢查分類完哦好高興我分類完了醫院那邊是什麼狀況你們知道嗎?"},{"start":13434.485,"end":13460.381,"text":"整個你們完全就是一人只做一段的我還是這樣講權動署這邊我對你們的要求很高這也不是一個署長可以完全承諾我們去跟其他跨部會做這種整合的今天我在講就是你看你們光站在我面前內政部跟國防部你們兩邊根本就是對於替代這一群可以來協助國家在戰災或者是緊急狀況之下可以做什麼事情的根本沒有彼此之間的合作概念啊"},{"start":13461.221,"end":13462.182,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們平常在訓練當中各有各的部門,各有各的項目,我們把它給做好。"},{"start":13483.9,"end":13511.135,"text":"但堅強,如果一旦作戰又入了,那我現在我就反問吧,假如在沒有敵情的狀況下,很平常﹖我們當然知道平常所以不用嘛﹖我們要訓練,把它訓練好,作戰有其他額外會干擾的。所以作戰額外干擾的,我們今天做這些訓練,那一旦發生作戰額外的狀況之下,我剛剛講,JPT到底你平常做這件事情在幹什麼?我們先把目前平健的狀況下把它做好嘛,做好以後,其他狀況加進去,如果在急救中,炸彈來了怎麼辦?"},{"start":13512.692,"end":13531.16,"text":"所以這個東西就是我一直說你們這個替代役的訓練裡面今天我沒有怪你們任何一個部會我是說你們兩個部會之間的整合跟任務方向拜託要用這個方式來看我們的訓練這些年輕人回來受訓他們期待的是受到對國家有幫助的訓練"},{"start":13532.04,"end":13549.493,"text":"各位委員沒有必要拜託,全眾署成立目的何在?就整合各部會嗎?全眾署你有整合各部會嗎?所有的精進方案、訓練各方面,我們大小會議都有參與,都密切合作,跟委員報告。你們給了他們什麼資料?事後跟林委員講一下吧。"},{"start":13557.028,"end":13560.293,"text":"議員,你們在這邊跟我講都說有,我剛剛這樣問就是沒有。我不要占大家時間,謝謝主席。好,詳細的那個意義的這一塊來講,其實...是是是"},{"start":13571.023,"end":13571.843,"text":"謝謝主席。麻煩請部長。請部長請"},{"start":13608.35,"end":13634.439,"text":"大家好部長早辛苦了我們回到今天的主題因為一起回到一年之後不只是一年一起相關的議題要去處理它對於我們現有的一些相關的招募的一些管道跟制度的衝擊我相信要一併來討論這也是本席今天希望從這個角度來切入今天在討論當中有一個所謂國防學士班剛剛我們也討論過了這個所謂的要停照這個可能的決定"},{"start":13635.379,"end":13650.072,"text":"部長,我請問一下,109年開始,現在招到現在為止,第一個,第一次招的畢業沒有?第一批畢業沒有?畢業了嘛,第一批招的畢業了嘛。畢業幾個?三個。你們覺得他們表現如何?"},{"start":13655.211,"end":13682.87,"text":"現在目前在部隊服役都還算正常不是正常是最低標了表現如何因為這都是國立大學的學生跟委員報告他現在目前畢業7月1號畢業之後到分科學校受訓所以還沒下部隊還沒下部隊受訓的狀況都正常好我現在問的就是說因為坦白講國防學士班是一個很特別的因為他都是在國立學校而且都是很多是頂尖的學校沒錯吧是所以當時鎖定這些不是以量為原則"},{"start":13683.991,"end":13696.307,"text":"是以此為原則喔把他們帶到這麼好的學校去然後帶到部隊來希望他們對我們部隊的專業的訓練能夠有所幫助跟ROTC不太一樣沒錯吧還是說就一般兵來用好"},{"start":13698.164,"end":13713.416,"text":"當時我們設定國防學士班的目的何在?就這麼簡單?是為了補充你的量的不足還是希望真的找到又有專業即便量不多的這些人?各位委員報告我們是希望廣開整個軍官的來源所以有就好是不是?有就好是不是?"},{"start":13714.571,"end":13737.424,"text":"要有專業當然就更好嘛對啊科技方面為什麼當初理工學院跟清大他們會交案沒有錯嘛 這部長講的是重點啊我們講的但是後來遭到的狀況不然嘛沒有部長我現在不是問遭的狀況我現在是產品出來之後好不好嘛如果這三個是好的很優秀台大的交大清大出來就算三個我繼續辦我坦白講三十個當然更好啦"},{"start":13743.263,"end":13762.804,"text":"所以到底我現在講就是說陸陸續續會畢業那這幾個人即便是少數到底對我們國家戰力也好或專業這塊有沒有提升請你們繼續觀察好不好不要因為他們這個班子可能最後不見了已經夭折了然後就算了就把這篇用完就算了我覺得很可惜啊"},{"start":13763.991,"end":13780.609,"text":"部長同意我這個想法吧?同意啊,我們也希望它好了嘛。對不對齁?對。然後其實主席剛才有一點很重要,就是到底是制度設計不夠好,還是這個制度本身就不應該存在,這的確可以討論啦。我們舉個例子來講,對這些學生來講,高中畢業學生,這個制度最大誘因在哪裡?哈?這個,大家覺得最大誘因在哪裡?"},{"start":13786.738,"end":13812.767,"text":"根委員報告就是說當初設立的目的啊是希望說他們補充軍官的來源然後如果說不是不是我現在問的是對這些想要報名的學生你覺得他最大誘因在哪裡為什麼我想選擇這個我不是ROTC甚至不是讀政期生為什麼你覺得他誘因在哪裡他們希望能夠有專業發展就是說不是啦不是啦坦白說你們就沒有從需求裡面去思考讀國立大學好的學校沒錯吧"},{"start":13815.177,"end":13840.516,"text":"國立考試校一方面他平常生活還有他的教育我們都有資助另外一方面講說他可以一樣在文學校發揮到財力的誘因我跟你講跟ROTC差不多了對差不多嘛一樣的幾乎一樣的所以你如果ROTC跟學士班來比的話其他誘因都一樣啊唯一的不同是什麼ROTC很多廣開嘛可是國防學士班什麼很多的重點的這個國立學校"},{"start":13841.604,"end":13869.6,"text":"就算我五年當安兵之後我還有交大的文憑我有台大的文憑我有清大的文憑沒錯吧這才是誘因啊所以如果你只從你國防部的角度思考說啊這個到底能不能招到學生你沒有從學生的角度思考這是很大的問題喔我知道但是不是所有學校都是國立吧有部分啦齁我再舉個例子啦齁制度上有一個很大的問題喔是一般年輕人不敢"},{"start":13871.141,"end":13900.004,"text":"去參加國防學士班,知道什麼嗎?退訓就退學。沒錯吧?他如果讀到一半不讀了,抱歉,台大也讀不下去了。沒錯啊。我知道嘛。所以這些學生不是一般學生。因為他可能只要有一天他不想走軍人這條路了,不想服內役了,抱歉,兩頭空。"},{"start":13901.772,"end":13902.012,"text":"司法部長"},{"start":13921.476,"end":13921.996,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":13937.318,"end":13955.474,"text":"因為你們自己講吧投資跟效益無法滿足其實我覺得不是投資跟效益的問題那是只從你們角度來看所以投資效益我辦那麼辛苦陳辦那麼辛苦所以招三個、四個重點是你從來沒有面對一個問題就是這一學生在選擇這個制度不是RTC不是正期生的時候我講白一點比讀軍軍官學校還風險高"},{"start":13959.155,"end":13975.611,"text":"所以我跟委員報告為什麼當初我們這班隊剛剛講的你大學教授副校長自己定的對不對我們並沒有講要順水推舟我以前既然能夠這麼有把握我們當然樂意投資可是這幾年所看到的成果算不好嘛"},{"start":13975.831,"end":13976.731,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":14004.488,"end":14018.262,"text":"你們現在要改我也沒意見啦你要廢掉我也沒意見我現在講的就是說我們真的面對問題不要只從國防部的本位主義我的投資效益如何我的成效如何一個制度的設計就跟ROTC也是一樣你要回想一下這些學生為什麼"},{"start":14020.131,"end":14020.231,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":14038.618,"end":14039.719,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":14058.623,"end":14082.729,"text":"所以這個制度面的問題坦白講當時在規劃跟設計的時候的確有很大的問題我沒有怪部長或是我們的這些國防部的同仁當時的設計的時候真的最缺的就是那個所謂學生端他們的需求跟誘因當然啦你現在很多訓練的課程包括入伍訓練然後大學階段的軍事訓練在寒暑假坦白講很ㄍㄧㄤㄟ等於他幾乎沒有寒暑假"},{"start":14086.701,"end":14087.101,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":14107.185,"end":14124.162,"text":"因為一旦當我們又恢復到一年一起之後我擔心就是上次也有請問過部長會不會衝擊到ROTC的吸收的這個情況因為你們看嘛雖然說你們都講說這個造貨率百分之百不錯那是因為你們計畫是逐年下降啊"},{"start":14125.339,"end":14125.979,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":14156,"end":14156.6,"text":"李德維委員"},{"start":14182.937,"end":14198.321,"text":"議員好是部長先請教一下因為當然我們現在部隊的邊線比大概不到八成我講的第一類戰鬥部隊的邊線比目前是不到八成那在這個部分明年這個當"},{"start":14201.442,"end":14204.003,"text":"因為當初我們要做這個延長的變一年一期的時候已經講得很清楚"},{"start":14221.087,"end":14223.729,"text":"大概預計明年這個恢復成為一年這個議期的我們的兵員大概有多少?"},{"start":14247.708,"end":14248.209,"text":"第二批的比如說一月"},{"start":14267.008,"end":14272.472,"text":"我們再回來談一下國防學士班跟ROTC請部長看一下你們今天報告的第六頁部長可以來參閱一下"},{"start":14292.048,"end":14315.58,"text":"你們有一個國防學士班與ROTC班對的說明表本席看完其實真正最大的差異您看一下其實就是畢業派職國防學士班底下的議期、補助經費、年度、預算需求都差異有限但是畢業派職有差別"},{"start":14316.707,"end":14338.987,"text":"國防學士班是優先以專業領域派職而ROTC是以戰鬥、戰鬥資源官科派職為主所以在這個部分當然現在我們了解光部的政策基本上是國防學士班停招所以是不是乾脆你把ROTC擴大了把他的畢業派職從戰鬥、戰鬥資源官科擴大成為專業領域"},{"start":14344.946,"end":14358.416,"text":"您可以考慮這樣子的事情嗎?因為其實在底看我們看那個補助經費的部分啊那個國防學士班是四年那ROTC是三年半那其他的學雜費、生活津貼、文具費"},{"start":14359.625,"end":14377.219,"text":"其實它差異真的有限那當然我們剛剛講因為那個國防學士班這個合作的學校當然有些也有一些這個考量或者這個成效有限所以是不是乾脆您覺得可以考慮國防部在這個部分可以把ROTC擴大"},{"start":14378.484,"end":14406.656,"text":"成為另外一個國防學士班您覺得有可行嗎?可以,委員這個提議很好啊我們已經看出來國防學士班因為他受限就那個範圍而且他蠻科的所以來的人不多那ROTC現在除了他這個到一般部隊做這些兵科軍官以外又給他增加一個你也可以投入專業的待會對他來講絕對有利吧所以這個我們絕對可以把它加進去的所以這部分"},{"start":14408.91,"end":14432.161,"text":"建議部長跟國防部在這個部分來思考一下所以請您來參考另外評價一下最近中國大陸發射了幾次的火箭前面三次當它發射了以後國防部的新聞稿裡面都說對於台灣影響不大沒有安全的疑慮"},{"start":14433.281,"end":14459.824,"text":"第四次的時候到沒有特別談到,第四次的新聞稿就沒有特別談到就是說這個部分,那請教一下他們第四次的火箭發射有特別的的不一樣或者什麼那個嗎?沒有,就對於我們就說,它因為發射在我們南端的好像是200海里左右上空,而且想說好像是已經到了大巨層了嘛,所以也一樣沒有影響,但我們"},{"start":14461.547,"end":14484.771,"text":"沒有講的話,好像特別強調這句話,因為事實上有很多飛彈發射以後,影響不影響,它只要有發射一個禁航區,帶有那個周邊,都有可能,所以我們也不能把話講太滿了。所以以後不光這一次,可能以後我們也會強調這個,我們就告知才能發射火箭了,可能是探空啊,"},{"start":14485.607,"end":14511.062,"text":"我們就做這個表達,對我們這個地方所有緊急危害的狀況,告知以後我們有緊急的狀況處理的方法,我們按照這個方法來做吧。好,了解。那當然這個我就說大家都非常關心我們召委今天特別提的這個事情,當然請國防部特別再來注意,好不好?好,謝謝。謝謝召委,謝謝部長。謝謝李德文文。"},{"start":14513.325,"end":14513.485,"text":"求陳議員、陸委員巡檔"},{"start":14535.222,"end":14552.438,"text":"九月下旬邱部長首度有證實我國對大陸有徵收雷達跟國際情報的交流可以清楚掌握到東南沿海的共軍動態另外您上次也說如果中共要對台進行軍事行為部隊必須事先大規模的調動"},{"start":14553.739,"end":14580.482,"text":"這個部分一定會被偵測到但是部長請問我們現在目前這些作為是不是已經足夠爭取應變的時間保障台灣的安全就你目前在大選前夕你現在掌握的狀況目前我們要看有沒有一個爭後當然目前沒有什麼特別的爭後但它有這個聯合軍演聯合戰這個警行戰備警行都是一個好像週期性的大概每個月都會有"},{"start":14581.923,"end":14608.481,"text":"我們掌握就這個我們也不期望有什麼異常的狀況發生所以我們持續密切注意那接續這個問題對於昨天有某位副總統參選人提出當選之後要單向派軍事觀察員赴中國常駐以確保台灣的安全請問邱部長您認為需不需要派觀察員常駐大陸這樣能不能保障台灣的安全我跟委員報告這選舉議題我們通常不做任何評論因為第一我就"},{"start":14611.963,"end":14638.465,"text":"其實講說國軍是一向就是行政本來就中立的嘛因為我們選舉了以後拋出議題就要我們國防部表達意見我認為不妥了就算我有看法但我絕對不會這樣公開這樣表達我個人任何的看法就跟平常有很多學者專家討論國防議題我不僅講我很尊重他們做專業的人他有立論基礎但國防部從來不會去參與討論一樣道理尤其在選舉期間"},{"start":14640.646,"end":14648.171,"text":"對任何人發表任何言論,只要跟國軍有關的,我國防部部長代表。接下來這個問題就跟國軍有直接的關係。我想就針對這個共諜的案件。近日這個國防大學證實"},{"start":14657.617,"end":14686.833,"text":"目前這個理工學院的教授葛明德主持先進系統工程研究中心這個部分是中管國軍國防產業需求跟科技的整合但是他卻在外開設公司並且與中國的技術合作那公司的董事會更在校內召開相關的作為這個會影響相關的國安危機那國防大學表示已經成立專案小組啟動調查如果葛元有涉不法絕不寬帶這是目前這個國防部的一個說法"},{"start":14687.073,"end":14706.922,"text":"那我想就叫邱部長還有另外一個議題就是說今天有媒體報導國防部軍事安全總隊及高檢署今年7月底破獲近十餘年來最大商人謝炳成發展軍中的共諜網案這個是今天稍早的消息那竟然發現史無前例的架機叛逃的計畫"},{"start":14707.842,"end":14733.227,"text":"那前航特部的謝信忠孝計劃跟謝秉成共諜以大約新台幣4.8億元及泰國永久居留權為他的代價趁今年6月大陸軍演的時候山東號航艦行進台海中線之際秘密駕駛CH-47的直升機叛逃並且降落山東艦幸好在叛逃前遭到逮捕以致他這個計劃失敗那針對這兩個"},{"start":14735.808,"end":14755.786,"text":"案子,請問邱部長你目前掌握的狀況如何,要不要在這邊說明一下。我坦白跟各位,我跟委員報告,也跟我們同仁報告,對這件事情我講得我相當沉痛,這國軍在這一方面一個很基本的概念,對國家的防衛,對一個單位的一個忠誠度啊,遭到這種這種這是蠻"},{"start":14759.189,"end":14760.85,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":14777.145,"end":14800.991,"text":"那我想實際的管理面的部分包含就是說這位葛教授是不是有涉及國家安全利益跟機密的人員那尤其這種涉及國家核心關鍵技術的業務人員他有受到什麼規範禁止前往大陸的相關對象那國防部跟國防大學的這個管制從這個案子看出來他相對來講是鬆散的這中間的這個管理漏洞要怎麼樣去補強"},{"start":14802.311,"end":14826.077,"text":"所以我這個案子我已經採取兩個步驟具體的措施?具體的,第一個雙法辦因為剛剛委員所提的幾個問題只要跟法有關的交給法辦他引經據典該辦他就辦他就第一個第二個我不能講我等待法辦結果以後我們才能同步我們在行政調查只要跟他這個人有關的跟他是工作有關的"},{"start":14827.037,"end":14849.612,"text":"我們相關牽涉這個人員,我們展開行政方面應該要警告人們。我想,嚴判絕不寬戴,這個都是事後,但是事前的預防機制、防堵機制、相關法令的一個完善,這個才是預防勝於治療的一個主要的重點。那我想就教邱部長,那國防部現職的軍官,哪一些人到底可以前往中國大陸,哪一些人不能前往。"},{"start":14849.892,"end":14873.117,"text":"那尤其是退離職的人員前往中國大陸需不需要事先申請那相關的嚴格規範比如說有涉及到國家安全機密或核心技術這個部分你們後續的這個除了法制上的完善但是行政管理還有相關的管理機制要怎麼樣去強化我覺得這個是重點我希望你在這邊說明一下那另外一個部分我們希望國防部可以在"},{"start":14873.857,"end":14891.893,"text":"透過這兩個案子在內部的內控管理因為我想不管任何的這個法辦或是絕不寬大的態度這都是事後的一個處理的方式但是如何有效的機制管理這個才是事情根本的重點那是不是請部長說明一下這要怎麼強化後續的管理機制跟管理漏洞"},{"start":14892.433,"end":14912.596,"text":"基本上我跟委員報告,就是說原則上現役軍人沒有哪一個可以同意到大陸地區的,現在都沒有。那退役以後,看他當初在軍中服役、在服勤當中的職務、審理等級等等,各有規範。那目前我們平常都在做的。"},{"start":14913.217,"end":14933.538,"text":"陳副國防委員有提到,保防這個工作我們真的在很加強,所以最近我並不幫我推責任,有幾件事情真的是保安人員發覺了以後,深入來調查的。但我們不以此為滿意啦,有這幾件大案子一連串出來,這國防部的確要痛點是痛點。"},{"start":14933.558,"end":14936.459,"text":"總體盤點提出一個建議請邱部長、國防部儘速針對這兩個案子盤點相關法制上的漏洞尤其是要針對從事國防事務限職及退離職人員申請進入中國大陸地區的作業規定要做嚴加管控"},{"start":14954.845,"end":14971.372,"text":"對於前往大陸的高階人員及接觸機密跟專利的人士來去做相關的一個嚴格管制,尤其這次葛元的事情必須從重處罰,下部為例完全杜絕。那針對這個相關的法令的一個作業規定,應該要去做總體的一個盤點。"},{"start":14973.133,"end":14996.83,"text":"第二、針對今天的重點,兵役延長的配套機制。我想本席之前也在這邊提出兵役延長的整個配套跟整備狀況的質詢。包含針對徵集訓練作業、分派作業跟服役期間的提繳退休金的作業,其實陸陸續續國防部都有做,我們也知道慢慢的再去完善。但是到底一無一要不要上戰場,"},{"start":14997.551,"end":15021.527,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":15021.627,"end":15043.074,"text":"我想就教邱部長除了主戰部隊之外備戰部隊包含義務役、平日的訓練要不要做好上戰場的準備那相關的訓練內容有沒有去做一個調整那另外一個部分因為近年來受到少子女化的影響那國軍招募人才嚴重不足那這個其實是可見的未來未來在相關能力的補充有沒有具體的一個作為"},{"start":15043.974,"end":15068.911,"text":"我跟委員報告,我這邊我要再次強調一次,因為以前我也在很多公開場合我也表達過,臺灣防疫的作戰,我們不期望它會成真。但我們平常要做的準備工作就是防制、避免這種事發生。但如果一旦發生了,我想臺灣就那麼大的地方,不大。一旦發生了臺灣防疫作戰,槍炮一響,沒有前方後方。"},{"start":15070.192,"end":15084.204,"text":"所以我要求我們所有同仁要有一個觀念,處處是戰場,實時做訓練。就為了這一個不期望發生的事情一旦發生了,我們好歹也要做一些很積極的準備。"},{"start":15085.965,"end":15108.145,"text":"第二、有些人的表達方法我不了解,我也沒有任何評論。比如說我們對戰場的界定,可能一般是想,我只要在牆裏面,外面如果打亂,外面是戰場,我裏面不是。但我已經講了,颱風發生之後的槍爆影響,沒有前方後方之分。"},{"start":15109.086,"end":15135.528,"text":"我想全民國防除了我們自主的防衛意識之外其實各國也都在看那如何精實訓練的內容跟保障異難的這個權益的一個前提之下能夠落實前線國防跟民防甚至中央地方政府的一個合作我想這個未來還有很長的路要走我希望部長能夠繼續堅持住應該要把這個相關的細節包含全民國防手冊的完善還有這個中央地方政府的相關溝通"},{"start":15137.99,"end":15158.1,"text":"以及藝南的心理建設還有我們國軍志願役相關的一個權益也不要讓他們有這個相對剝奪感最重要是重新提振國軍弟兄的榮譽感跟士氣我覺得這是非常重要的希望部長可以繼續努力謝謝就我們的本務工作應該要做謝謝委員謝謝邱成源委員接下來請何昭偉詢問"},{"start":15169.557,"end":15175.322,"text":"謝謝主席、謝謝趙偉。我們是不是先有請我們部長還有我們的經濟部署長、聯署長。謝謝。邱部長請。還有聯署長請。產業發展署聯署長。"},{"start":15187.874,"end":15207.402,"text":"國防部長,還有我們經濟部的署長。我想今天有個臨時提案要討論到無人機的部分。那的確,當時候在2022年8月31號,金門這些無人機的滋擾,非常的討厭,非常的幼稚,非常的無聊。但是這些對於民心來講,它是有一些"},{"start":15208.823,"end":15209.744,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":15234.179,"end":15246.651,"text":"我再問一個問題就好,我們的無人機的反制系統,我們什麼時候會上路?什麼時候會在外島?什麼時候可以完成?這個部分經濟部有沒有答案?國防部有沒有答案?我們壓一個時間點可以嗎?"},{"start":15250.798,"end":15275.77,"text":"我上回我記得張偉有提出一個問題,一個禮拜以內我們中科院他以現有的去做一個補強所以現在我們知道中科院數量夠的話我們可以先做吧至於要立案要做研發要做這個合作採購等等的後面照走但我不指望這個期限了,我們可以來補強的立刻補強"},{"start":15276.53,"end":15278.011,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":15295.939,"end":15315.8,"text":"根據就是後續國防部規劃總共26台外導的,那目前是113年13台、114年14台,如果沒錯的話,現在我是說先看國防部的指導,我們總會絕對可以配合,國防部現在還是要委外嘛,還是跟委員報告一下。"},{"start":15318.558,"end":15328.656,"text":"各位委員報告,這個無人機反制系統目前我們正在會同採購室和相關的…沒關係,程序我不管,我問的是時間。"},{"start":15331.783,"end":15355.089,"text":"時間就是勝利喔也就是在因為它的期程是113、114那這個目前會按照這個我等一下質詢時間會多增加兩分鐘會按照期限來走對我在期限是什麼113年13套114年也是13套那總共是26套所以明年的什麼時候到明年年底明年年底才會好還是"},{"start":15357.229,"end":15368.64,"text":"他的期程就是113年要完成十三號。我的理解啦。不能拖這麼久啦。這樣子一拖變兩年的時間。所以我們今天的具體要求明年"},{"start":15370.174,"end":15397.074,"text":"三月份有沒有辦法好?四月份有沒有辦法好?我的認知是這樣子啦。剛剛部長回應非常的精準。他說中科院這邊先去擋著,去在那邊,先補上去,那之後什麼研發等等的,後續再講。我想我理解是這樣子,如果沒有錯的話,是不是這樣子。所以換句話說,在民意的要求下,即刻就可以上路嗎?"},{"start":15398.054,"end":15401.735,"text":"我期待今年農曆年前可不可以全部基本上全面上路好不好?不可以?"},{"start":15420.015,"end":15420.356,"text":"韓國瑜教授"},{"start":15436.815,"end":15452.088,"text":"但是因為中國院還有報告...沒關係,我今天我也退讓一點點。對。外打好多個,我現在就是手中金門。我外打現在可以提供六個,我六個現在已經完成了。嗯。六部或是四部,因為有兩部我會有再跟你們報告,因為這很重要,也許在本島要用。"},{"start":15452.648,"end":15452.808,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":15472.858,"end":15478.74,"text":"我跟委員報告好不好,委員不要為這個干擾我現在幾月幾號了,我跟各位也要報告,我們現在,早就規定了,外離島在營區上空有這種交換,就是直接用射擊打掉啦,"},{"start":15499.887,"end":15500.687,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":15526.687,"end":15550.405,"text":"反制系統今年年初來部長我想今天由我們國內自己主持極機密的國防軍事會談會議以及顧案計畫前前後後大概有十人在押我必須以一個負責任的執政黨說這是我們國防部跟我們國安系統有在控管"},{"start":15551.326,"end":15562.607,"text":"有在控管才會查得到才會抓得到那我這邊後續根據我的了解他們拿到的這些資料也都是舊版的沒有更新的"},{"start":15563.37,"end":15564.491,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":15581.92,"end":15604.183,"text":"但是這些狀況發生了我要問的事情是是不是請政戰這邊回應一下他們是如何拿到因為是極機密他只是效極而已吼那如何拿到資料的這個部分知道嗎效極的人如何取得降級喔的會議資料這個部分可不可以說明"},{"start":15605.253,"end":15629.305,"text":"我跟委員簡單報告就我們很多工作都有一定的規定有程序嚴格講起來也就沒有照這個程序所以他應該要直接交給誰然後歸黨他可能要中間轉發一個人給他叫他去歸這個當中出了問題所以我們是很沉痛的我們要檢討我們要檢討來鄭正這邊要不要說明一下"},{"start":15630.731,"end":15647.503,"text":"報告委員,呃,這個,誠如剛剛部長所說的,在這個程序方面,我們確實有一些瑕疵。那另外呢,這個案子呢,因為呃,高等法院也在依法辦理。呃,會後我們是不是派員跟委員這邊做說明?"},{"start":15650.255,"end":15676.721,"text":"來,那我問一下,這些資料的部分都是舊版的嗎?對不對?沒有用了嗎?還是應該怎麼說會比較好?我問委員報告,我倒並不是有新的舊的。就新的舊的,台風防疫室在舊那麼大的地方,再怎麼調?這整體來講我並不界定在新的舊的問題。這國防部真的痛定思痛了。這是一個起死大路。那當時候是怎麼發現的?官兵檢舉"},{"start":15681.255,"end":15706.006,"text":"關兵檢舉關兵檢舉所以我們到底這一套系統要怎麼我們內部到底要怎麼辦不好意思,昭偉這邊要借一點時間然後我們看到一下兵推好不好這個下一個題目部長我近期有到這個國防大學還有國防安全研究院去考察那也很謝謝國防部身為昭偉當時我要求要把這個海昆號"},{"start":15706.966,"end":15707.626,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":15725.596,"end":15753.847,"text":"根據我的了解在美國也好或其他的這些所謂我們先進的這些國防的國家裡面以美國為例美國的三軍官校當中兵推課程是標準的配置那目前我看到我們台灣台灣中華民國的部分兵推是要等任官、任官、任官後在軍官的正規班才開始的我在這邊要問一下我們國防大學這邊"},{"start":15755.589,"end":15757.45,"text":"國防大學有沒有自己的兵推系統?國防大學的兵推系統是用JTOS系統是跟國防部所應使共用的。我們對照一下美軍好了,因為它畢竟是最大的系統之一。美軍的國軍人才在軍校18歲到22歲"},{"start":15780.236,"end":15791.293,"text":"他們的就有在培養他們並且讓他們有戰略跟戰術的思維畢竟我們的這個軍校的確是培育下一波也是國家重要國軍人才"},{"start":15793.005,"end":15815.895,"text":"當然很多國軍會說這個拔草啊掃地啊等等那只是可能一百項工作裡面其中一項那我的認知是當我們的國軍從18歲很年輕就知道說未來的決策怎麼決策其實這個國家我們再離題一下下我們在講智商我們在講這個IQ等等其實不是他腦部開發了"},{"start":15817.056,"end":15817.436,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":15845.742,"end":15865.753,"text":"我跟委員報告,委員這個建議很好。事實上我現在要說明一下,所以兵推是個統稱,真正的推演有砂板推演、有兵器推演、有裝備推演。我所強調的,剛才委員所講的,在這個軍校裡面就做推演,這絕對可以做。我們認為科目要做之前,"},{"start":15866.84,"end":15877.078,"text":"在這個打趴講的地板上擺幾個書那也叫狀況推演的也叫兵棋推演的這我們從現在開始已經部隊裡在做的打趴今天要打靶了"},{"start":15885.406,"end":15899.233,"text":"另外一件事情,我跟部長這邊也做一個政策,未來政策教育系統的一個討論。我理解國防大學現在用的是,真的是所謂的高技術性的應該叫做JETOS系統,沒有錯。"},{"start":15900.373,"end":15916.92,"text":"那JATO再看下一個PowerPoint好不好我們去這個國防安全研究院你看一下左邊跟右邊他們裡面這是Zoom Out之後這是非常遙遠的看他們在做任何的參數放進去之後其實它是整個圖是會動的"},{"start":15919.321,"end":15948.561,"text":"那我認為從對一個18歲到22歲的年輕人他們在看相對應的兵推等等的其實他會演繹出來甚至他很清楚的知道他動態他很及時非常的擬真就如同我當時候建議我們的這個很多非官他是用那個模擬器這樣子去看待因為越接近真實他越理解包含他的組織邏輯等等包含還有這個有趣性也會增加"},{"start":15949.341,"end":15974.583,"text":"所以我在這邊講請看一下我們這個左下角這個框是各國使用的還有這些兵推的軟體等等是否這邊也幫軍校這邊爭取一下下我們是否可以因為畢竟18歲到20歲你要他看臺灣整島或整個印太東西的規模那個skill去做兵推或者沙盤推演太大了但是有些東西可以小部分小部分拆解讓他知道"},{"start":15975.303,"end":15995.998,"text":"我應該如何跟我的同僚甚至不同的聯隊甚至不同的軍種他們之間的合作關係聯合的關係是什麼這邊部長可不可以這個意見您的想法呢這很好意見我就想說委員所這個表達出來這個是每個層級不一樣每個系統有不同層級就剛剛講的JETOS"},{"start":15997.639,"end":16012.077,"text":"他已經到戰區系統所以對一個我們排級或聯席以下單位來講的話他用不到那個所以現在各國都有一個手錶一樣這上面就是兵力如何配備如何在哪裡"},{"start":16013.058,"end":16013.418,"text":"三、審查本院委員"},{"start":16034.755,"end":16036.536,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":16053.307,"end":16073.887,"text":"謝謝何昭偉。何昭偉的意思是國防大學的兵推不生動,商用兵推比較生動。我們那天有去啊,我們那天去看他就是點跟線這樣子而已嘛,但那是真正的專業啦,但是我覺得既然是教學用的話應該...因為都用商用的兵推,國防院裡面的比較好。感謝,謝謝。好,謝謝何委員。接下來請陳江華委員詢答。"},{"start":16081.373,"end":16083.775,"text":"謝謝召委。請部長。邱委員好。部長好。部長,現在三位總統候選人有沒有環保證件?請問部長知道嗎?環保?環保證?證件。"},{"start":16122.512,"end":16139.875,"text":"主要是我本人就是是一個環保志工也是超過快30年所以這個部分當然我們關心環境的人也是非常關心人權非常關心人權"},{"start":16141.072,"end":16168.89,"text":"那部長我上次有跟你質詢就是國安六村的圈改爭議本席多次召開協調會、公聽會那今年11月21日公聽會是副局長出席那結論就是有答應要發函給國安局還有國安會請他們提供國安六村的卷戶資料"},{"start":16170.926,"end":16197.919,"text":"但是呢,遲遲沒有發出那因為遲遲沒有發出呢所以我就不死心我就12月4號就在召開一個會議那局長本來答應我要來但是當天呢臨時因故又缺席那本席當然不是很開心吧部長"},{"start":16199.315,"end":16226.725,"text":"你看我現在講話越來越凝重那會中呢眷服處的處長他也答應三天內要發函給國安局跟國安會但是到今天已經七天了還是沒有發函部長我是要拜託你你們國防部要多"},{"start":16227.847,"end":16246.563,"text":"我沒有要請你們關心環境都關心一下人權好嗎這些人真的活得很痛苦房子都那麼破舊住了也不安全然後我們國防部我們政戰局一直在刁難所以部長剛剛我說的"},{"start":16251.869,"end":16268.038,"text":"是在藐視國會嗎?是你在藐視國會還是偵探局長在藐視國會?為什麼看這麼多次會議也找了這麼多相關的人來說明?因為今天質詢的時間有限我也不再跟你講細節了。那結論就是請偵探局把國安六村他們眷改戶的資料"},{"start":16276.824,"end":16284.288,"text":"發函請政政局發函請國安局跟國安會提供資料結果到現在都不用預發公文這到底是在為什麼不把我們的眷改戶我們這些國軍的眷戶當人來看呢為什麼要一直這麼刁難呢我跟委員報啊委員可能九點當了"},{"start":16305.077,"end":16309.428,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":16309.693,"end":16338.385,"text":"委員保證,我們沒有要刁難誰,也沒有不把哪些人當人看,不可能的,我們也絕對不會假裝藐視委員。當中我們也一再討論,國安六村這個議題討論好多年了,我們也說明好多次了,所以不厭其煩的,可能假如這回做的有點疏忽的話,那我負責吧,我跟委員這個線,但我也請政戰局他們夜館該發函發函,該再去說明再去說明。"},{"start":16338.945,"end":16367.288,"text":"都答應了啊。那局長當天應顧不來,我也接受。但是我真的是沒辦法去接受說,把這些人真的不去尊重他們的人權。我沒有不尊重,我跟委員報告,這裡面有很多人權。那部長什麼時候可以請政戰局發函呢?這個禮拜會發函出去。好,盡快好嗎?這個禮拜會發函出去。"},{"start":16369.072,"end":16375.34,"text":"謝謝局長再來下一個案子下一個案子也是一個很令人"},{"start":16378.697,"end":16402.115,"text":"當然我們有這個陳情仁就是我們國軍弟兄那他就是一位黃家雄先生他是河群新村本來是眷戶那在眷改的程序進行的時候有發存證信案給國防部表示這個程序是有瑕疵的"},{"start":16403.076,"end":16426.39,"text":"不過他不是不同意卷改但是最後不知道是什麼原因被變成他就是不同意卷改不配合卷改然後被拆屋並所討不當得利那本席是覺得這是不合理的不合理不合情理"},{"start":16427.25,"end":16428.992,"text":"我是要請部長瞭解一下細節,如果"},{"start":16455.894,"end":16462.758,"text":"因為本席已經花了很多時間了解那現在時間也到了我是請部長能夠跟局長能夠再去確認能夠讓他恢復他是有眷改戶的權益因為這個眷戶呢他前後兩次自己用了純正信函來確認他註銷他的原認證書所以這個都是在法院審理都有判決的那在"},{"start":16481.989,"end":16483.331,"text":"議長,您現在講的在協調會都講了很多次,但是本期開會的時候,因為您一直沒有來開會,所以我要跟局長、跟部長也說,"},{"start":16498.914,"end":16516.592,"text":"這位國軍弟兄他也是後來發了很多次函給我們國防部說他是同意的他是同意的我再講三遍同意同意同意所以部長麻煩你再確認一下是不是可以再追回他是眷戶的眷改戶"},{"start":16518.094,"end":16531.044,"text":"簡單就是這樣。他原先是有意見,對我們卷改是有意見,但是後來他也發了非常多次的函,說明他是願意卷改的,他不是不同意。這樣了解嗎?"},{"start":16532.486,"end":16556.706,"text":"我們了解因為很多法規它有一個期限對不對在你這個期限以內你答覆怎麼樣你就要秉持啊當然委員會講他願意這個已經好像改了我們也要改我們是公家機構多少人這個狀況一個一改我們前面法走過程序就別人也要否定好部長當然我們現在了解是不是請局長親自親自我們再來討論一下"},{"start":16563.07,"end":16576.056,"text":"看我們黃先生還有國安就有什麼問題那剛剛也答應說趕快發文那這位黃家雄弟兄我們是不是再討論一下可不可以再讓他追認他是眷改戶可以嗎"},{"start":16578.078,"end":16596.64,"text":"方委員,會後我再到辦公室跟您報告。那部長,可以嗎?可以麻煩你也撥個心,就是也去關心一下這個案子。我們也不願意看到這位黃先生真的是也是活得很辛苦。我也不願意看到,我也很難過嘛。大家以前跑走一場。"},{"start":16597.961,"end":16603.842,"text":"一般來講,原券戶一定要注目證明,不然的話打完官司打輸了還要再補,不可能。"},{"start":16627.761,"end":16630.263,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":16648.729,"end":16666.709,"text":"謝謝召委,現在時間比較晚了,我可不可以請一下部長,還有總督察長,然後還有法律事務司作戰聯三,還有訓練參謀,還有國防大學跟中科院。好,通通上來"},{"start":16668.103,"end":16691.769,"text":"因為我要問三個問題了督察室李中將還有法律師我先問一下部長部長剛剛蔡市委員有提到就是我們臺灣高檢署檢查署臺灣高等檢查署的新聞稿有提到有陳姓被告10人的部分那現在只有一位叫做陳玉新的部分他雖然是一個退役人員但是退役商人請問一下你了不了解他有沒有被通緝"},{"start":16693.246,"end":16721.283,"text":"我知道他這個10人當中有3個是已經退的7個是我們現役的我知道我是說這個陳玉新你所了解的部分他有沒有被通緝有通緝嘛有通緝的嘛有通緝所以這個部分看起來不管是7個人或是10個人最後到那個法院去判決的時候應該都是會觸犯到貪污自罪條例甚至國安法或者是一些勤工法的部分那我要請教一下"},{"start":16721.963,"end":16742.771,"text":"部長雖然可以看到說這個是11月27日台灣高等檢察署所發布的新聞稿但是我們略微知道就是不管是特種的像化學兵或是陸海空等等這些相關的極機密國防部內部的這個資料請問一下我們後續的這個補救方案或是亡羊補牢的方案現在開始啟動了沒有"},{"start":16743.447,"end":16771.035,"text":"我們同步來啟動,因為當初這案子一出以後啊,我們就有很多這個叫做等於要補強,避免人家講損害管控啊,損害管控啊我知道,損害管控很重要,這是風險的部分但是我要跟你講說,這裡面有好多是極精密的部分但是極精密的話要按照我們國防部內部的程序還是必須要由這個比如說下面的不管是哪一個軍種再上上來但是這樣子的機制會不會太慢"},{"start":16772.602,"end":16787.111,"text":"我要跟部長提到的部分就是說因為這裡面太多極機密的部分有沒有可能馬上先通案比如說先把它撤掉或是說先把這個所謂的舊案全部都一起否決掉然後趕快重新擬定新的方案而不是只有換湯不換藥"},{"start":16788.932,"end":16813.869,"text":"我們都要重複再說了。好,那你什麼時候可以完成?什麼時候可以完成我所說的?因為這個高檢署所發布的這個新聞稿裡面我相信你們從他的這個起訴判決書裡面一定會了解到我們國防部內部到底有哪一些極機密機密不管是哪一個陸海空三軍的部分受到影響那現在趕快做亡羊補牢,那個部長你可以答應我什麼時候可以把它完成補牆的工作?"},{"start":16819.396,"end":16836.252,"text":"報告委員,這個所有洩密的資料我們剛剛前面已經有委員指導過,我們去跟這個地方法院拿到起訴書相關的證據以後,我們會做成一個清單,然後將所有洩密出去的計畫全部做一個修訂。"},{"start":16836.792,"end":16849.02,"text":"要作廢對不對?要作廢再修訂。那我剛問的是什麼時候可以完成?這是你們內部的行政局就可以做到?不需要經過台灣高檢署同意啊?是,報告委員這個在明年第一季就可以完成"},{"start":16849.471,"end":16871.499,"text":"明年第一季就表示到目前為止,你要三個月才會完成,那三個月裡面如果有任何其他的這個境外的勢力來呢?太慢了吧?部長,即機密的部分可不可以盡快來完成收集或補償的工作?我們只要有這個名稱以後,下單就是這個馬上就截止或作廢,這個是可以很快做的。拿到"},{"start":16872.5,"end":16895.435,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":16896.516,"end":16922.109,"text":"他已經新聞稿出來了所以國防部是受害者嘛所以盡量趕快找到相關資料好嗎好這第一個那第二個呢我要問的就是葛明德這個這一位啊國防大學的教授那個跟這個所謂的現役軍官遭吸收了部分的相關的這個這個首長可以先回去我想問一下國防大學的這個部分啊將研究成果跟中國籍人士來申請專利請問國防大學還有中科院怎麼看待這件事"},{"start":16924.493,"end":16949.233,"text":"來請回應一下跟委員報告那目前他在那個跟對岸廠商申請那個專利的那個發明申請專利怎麼會跟對岸廠商一定是對岸的官方機構啊哪有去跟對岸的廠商申請專利你來看一下他裡面的部分是就是有關電鍍法來自備高批負性的這個沾黏這個陶瓷類的部分這個不是做完欸你要搞清楚啊"},{"start":16949.693,"end":16963.948,"text":"你要知道我們在國客會剛剛通過了幾個國家核心關鍵技術裡面有相關的這些技術在國防部主管就很多包括碳纖維、高溫耐燒溶石技術等等這些所以事實上你們不能把它等閒視之好像覺得只是為了一點點錢然後就申請中國專利你們搞清楚狀況啊"},{"start":16969.113,"end":16984.138,"text":"關於委員報告,媒體上面那些專利,事實上是跟我們學校持有的專利是沒有相關的。我們還在查案中,有些是不屬實的。表示你還在查當中,那我再問一下中科院,你了不了解?"},{"start":16984.838,"end":17006.779,"text":"中科院也若干的委託計畫給這位葛明德教授我剛所說的用電鍍法制備高批負性的抗沾黏的類陶瓷鍍膜技術還有先進的環保、落炭類陶瓷製成技術等等這些有沒有牽涉到中科院自己內部認定的是屬於關鍵技術或是屬於國防機密"},{"start":17007.399,"end":17036.079,"text":"各位報告這十年來我們查了一下葛明德跟我們中科院案有14個案子那14個案子都是基礎科學研究也就是剛才有委員詢答我們講了基礎關鍵是依照三級的TIL基礎備備水準這14個案子我們昨天這兩天特別樂悅來查他沒有涉及到機密但是他裡面是不是還有包含三個從110年到112年的先進系統工程研究中心他是不是其中的一個"},{"start":17039.607,"end":17064.255,"text":"請再查核清楚好嗎?國防部或者是國防大學再查核清楚有14案14案裡面是葛明德先生或是葛明德教授有涉案的部分我們現在擔心的就是核心關鍵技術如果沒有把它查清楚的話你會認為只是一般的學研甚至他跑到中國去申請專利的時候申請完專利那變成中國就可以無限被授權來使用我覺得是這個非常糟糕啊部長"},{"start":17065.375,"end":17090.502,"text":"您聽到這樣子的部分的話,你的指示是什麼?有沒有最近跟中科院或者國防大學做一下什麼樣子的方式來指示他們?我剛剛講到我們已經交代了,不管是中科院也好,或國防大學、理工學院分別去查。但我們同步在做,第一個做的事情是先完全把移送法辦了。原本他們還講要查到某個地步再移送。我想這個不用等,這兩個工作同步在做的。"},{"start":17091.282,"end":17110.97,"text":"就是部長你已經指示說就乾脆移送法辦,不用再經過內部的行政調查是嗎?不是,就是要行政調查是移送法辦以後我們一樣要說我們程序嘛。就是同步進行就對了。對,同步說。好,了解。同步進行我想這樣才能夠真正遏止我們的關鍵技術外流好嗎?是。那那個部長你指示要移送法辦的時間是什麼時候?"},{"start":17112.955,"end":17133.36,"text":"我昨天就有講了嘛,禮拜六我知道以後還我打電話給他那國防大學校長,我跟他講了但是12月8號的時候為什麼國防大學自己都會講說成立專案小組啟動調查,這表示是行政調查啊?國防大學有沒有收到那個部長的指示?"},{"start":17134.38,"end":17150.045,"text":"跟委員報告就是早上那個媒播出來之後我們就立刻成立專案調查小組然後就這一次整天就開始在做調查然後也在研擬相關的後續的作為來移送法辦這件事情是由國防部移送法辦還是國防大學移送法辦到底是誰我要求他"},{"start":17150.945,"end":17176.19,"text":"是啊,所以國防大學教育長你所回應的是你啟動調查,這就是我所說的,這叫行政調查啊那你到底有沒有按照國防部長的指示就是移送法案有,有確實的按照部長的指示來做一個安送法辦嘛,什麼時候出去的?公文今天上午今天上午才出去嘛今天上午會,是今天上午請那個做寒送所以部長昨天指示你們今天上午出去,這樣算是快,是不是?"},{"start":17179.138,"end":17188.132,"text":"昨天是週日我們已經有同仁在作業然後今天早上是上班日然後今天上午就會出手就會送走是表示還沒送還是送了?"},{"start":17189.617,"end":17192.138,"text":"最近這兩天包括某個媒體也都在批評就是說我們立法院即將二三讀的這個軍事營區安全維護條例裡面"},{"start":17211.008,"end":17225.885,"text":"是否為涉及就是說侵害到有一般尤其是什麼露營啊射露營這個部分後來我們來查證一下的部分就是說在原來啊我們那個法律有個要塞堡壘地帶法的地帶法的第四條第一款也是一樣"},{"start":17226.465,"end":17242.445,"text":"沒有受到國防部的特別命令的話不得為測量、攝影等等這些如果有違反的話呢它的有期徒刑是在一年到七年那但是呢同樣很類似的部分放在我們的軍事營區的安全而物條例裡面第六條的審查裡面是非經軍事居關許可"},{"start":17243.246,"end":17260.199,"text":"我是不是可以直接請這個沈中將來回應一下請問這兩個之間的差別在哪裡?競合在哪裡?而為什麼會有一些就是說對於軍事迷他們有興趣不一定涉及國家安全的人會對這個有些反彈?是不是請沈中將可以來回答一下?"},{"start":17260.979,"end":17287.975,"text":"是,報告委員跟委員做簡單的說明要塞堡壘地帶法它規範的是要塞堡壘要塞堡壘它必須經過公告那現在在我們全部地區大概有22處不是所有的營區都是要塞堡壘那軍事營區安全維護條例它的保護的課題是營區我們作戰部門有概略統計過大概有上千個營區那要塞堡壘地帶法第四條它規範的罰則就像委員剛剛講的它可能有到圖形的處罰"},{"start":17288.835,"end":17308.02,"text":"那軍事安全安全維護條例他第六條裡面所規範的法則那個只有原來上面原則上是只有行政法並沒有到並沒有到所謂刑法的處罰程度不一樣但是為什麼大家會反彈就在於你所說的要在堡壘地帶法所牽涉到的範圍比較小比較少"},{"start":17310.041,"end":17310.461,"text":"報告委員單純這種你對著天空拍"},{"start":17332.398,"end":17333.059,"text":"我建議省中將要對外說清楚台灣也很多軍事迷"},{"start":17348.877,"end":17349.178,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":17364.617,"end":17391.096,"text":"但是如果我們把這個軍安條例裡面無限擴大讓他覺得說我連拿個這個攝影機就會受到影響然後甚至會有人出來拿著槍出來趕我走這樣的部分那這個部分如果沒有說清楚講明白的話會很糟糕尤其是非經濟事機關許可就我了解應該是說該營區裡面的指揮官要許可才可以是不是還是門哨就可以許可"},{"start":17392.197,"end":17417.058,"text":"如果要拍攝相關的許可的話我們會在後面有定的有七個辦法有七個執法那另外哪些地方能拍不能拍或是哪些地方有管制有四個公告該有的法規命令該有的公告我們都會按著程序來做誰有權許可在什麼樣的營區有什麼樣的人可以做許可等等那如果發覺有人違規該怎麼樣去做通報該怎麼樣請示都會在相關的法規命令裡面來規範"},{"start":17417.739,"end":17446.336,"text":"因為這裡面也牽涉到如果說是電視台或者是其他的媒體他們也會很關心這個部分所以我們未來要公告的時候或是未來要主管機關還是放在國防部來主管還是放在行政院主管會比較好因為行政院在主管的過程當中他們會比較考慮到涉及到言論自由比如說是電視台或者是媒體等等這些他們的這個管制的方向會跟國防部還會有一些必須要溝通的"},{"start":17446.656,"end":17447.536,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":17464.025,"end":17464.325,"text":"我們不能這樣講,法律不是這樣子的"},{"start":17484.542,"end":17506.031,"text":"立法院通過之後,行政院也只能按照立法院所通過的法條來處理。你不能說立法院通過之後,我行政院可以另外再下指導期。不能這樣子。我們是照著法律授權。對,我們是照著法律授權的範圍。所以法律授權放在行政院執法或者是其他的行政命令的話會比較好,還是放在國防部會比較好?"},{"start":17506.533,"end":17530.024,"text":"二、報委應該是放在國防部這個我們先前就有討論過我們是主管機關我先跟你提醒了因為再接著下來可能我們在四黨協商的時候呢這個議題還是會被提出來那如果我們考量這個時間上的因素希望趕快通過的話恐怕對每個不同的黨團之間的溝通或者是對外界的溝通要說清楚講明白最後二三度通過才比較不會有其他的疑慮好嗎我們會持續去說明謝謝部長謝謝各位"},{"start":17535.049,"end":17536.309,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":17555.001,"end":17559.165,"text":"蘇志芬委員翁崇鈞委員王宏威委員蔡依瑜委員"},{"start":17573.888,"end":17589.212,"text":"那今天登記質詢的委員除了不在場之外都已經發言完畢了報告就詢答結束本日會議有陳明文委員、蔡易瑜委員、馬文君委員、趙天寧委員、陳超明委員提出書面質詢並列入記錄刊登公報請相關機關如果書面以書面於兩週內答覆聯席各委員會並複製聯席會那"},{"start":17603.235,"end":17619.936,"text":"今日的委員口頭質詢為答覆部分也要求補充資料者請相關單位以書面於兩週內提出,提供給各個委員。我的ROTC要兩週內嗎?一週就可以了吧?"},{"start":17622.547,"end":17642.274,"text":"提醒所有人員、481位跟學校。最後宣告一下有關病案審查的國防產業發展條例兩個修正提案因為就像今天的提案當中反制無人機我們已經有一個確定就是希望在這個"},{"start":17644.255,"end":17644.915,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"}]}},{"id":"15345","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15345","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db12c81503aa54e7229b5fa2f296a9353446d53a332764a5354d9d31b779b259405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查本院委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-11","start_time":"2023-12-11T08:29:59+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-10-8-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:08:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":5881,"委員發言時間":"08:29:59 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級相關人員﹚主席﹚蔡昭菊委員亦於報告四項訓導上次會議事錄決定確定"},{"start":1851.95,"end":1865.079,"text":"報告事項繼續討論113年度中央政府總預算復甦預算關於農業部主管肥營業部分、農業作業基金、農田水利事業作業基金、農業特別收入基金、農民退休基金、甲農業委員會"},{"start":1871.423,"end":1872.484,"text":"1.農業部主管1."},{"start":1872.484,"end":1873.204,"text":"作業基金1."},{"start":1873.204,"end":1878.127,"text":"業務計畫因依據業務收支轉投資固定資產之建設改良及擴充及資金運用等項之審查結果隨同調整2."},{"start":1878.127,"end":1878.487,"text":"業務收支1."},{"start":1878.487,"end":1879.748,"text":"業務總收入原列5億3177萬元增列續產改良"},{"start":1891.949,"end":1907.561,"text":"作業基金向下業務收入消費收入銷貨收入500萬元區均造列改列為5億3677萬元二業務總支出6億4千3百8千元造列三本期短促原列1億1千123萬8千元減列500萬元改列為1億0623萬8千元三截繳公顧金額無劣數四轉投資計畫無劣數"},{"start":1916.728,"end":1918.969,"text":"5.固定資產資建設改良擴充1億5972萬8千元照列6."},{"start":1918.969,"end":1920.03,"text":"國庫增撥基金額無劣數7."},{"start":1920.03,"end":1922.271,"text":"補販預算部分固定資產資建設改良擴充2724萬6千元照列8."},{"start":1922.271,"end":1922.411,"text":"通貨絕業26項2."},{"start":1922.411,"end":1924.492,"text":"作業基金 農田水利 事業作業基金1."},{"start":1924.492,"end":1927.774,"text":"業務計畫因依據業務收支轉投資固定資產資建設改良擴充及資金運用等向之審查結果隨同調整2."},{"start":1927.774,"end":1927.814,"text":"業務收支"},{"start":1944.222,"end":1964.318,"text":"一、業務總收入原列99億9千4百40萬4千元正列業務外收入其他業務外收入3千萬元取均照列改列為1百億2千4百40萬4千元二、業務總支出127億3千3百14萬元照列三、本期短促原列27億3千8百73萬6千元減列3千萬元改列為27億0八百73萬6千元三、截角供庫金額無列數"},{"start":1971.874,"end":1980.64,"text":"4.轉投資計畫五列數5.固定資產的建設改良擴充95億2,401萬2千元照列6.國庫增波基金額79億2,864萬4千元照列7.補辦預算固定資產的建設改良擴充4,908萬9千元收回資金之轉投資3萬5千元"},{"start":1990.407,"end":2016.749,"text":"資產之變賣2292萬9千元均照列八通貨決議十五項三特別收入基金農業特別收入基金一業務計劃依依據基金來源與用途審查結果隨通調整二基金來源用途及輿促一基金來源原列403億2213萬7千元增列林務發展及造林基金向下勞務收入服務收入4千萬元其餘均照列改列為403億6213萬"},{"start":2020.051,"end":2025.173,"text":"7,000元,基金用途555億2,636萬6千元,照列3.本期短促援略152億0,422萬9千元,減略4千萬元,改列為151億6,422萬9千元。3.結繳供庫,列出4.補辦預算,固定資產支線設改良,擴充2千萬元,照列5.通過決議44項"},{"start":2042.379,"end":2043.719,"text":"請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤?"},{"start":2072.145,"end":2092.999,"text":"沒有的話議事錄確定好我們現在進行討論事項請宣讀審查本院委員蔡易餘等16人擬具土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案案宣讀完畢好那這個我提案說明就像我的提案內容那我們是不是請經濟部王部長報告王美華部長來請部長謝謝"},{"start":2102.522,"end":2104.363,"text":"主席各位委員好那針對蔡議員等16人擬具的這個土石採取法36條修正案那本部來做簡單的說明那土石採取法36條曾經在110年修正那增訂了未經許可以船舶或其他"},{"start":2123.273,"end":2131.176,"text":"機械設備方式在我國的內海、臨海特定限制禁止的水域採取土石者、刻意行者,並且有規定經判決可以沒收確定的犯罪用的船舶或其他設備的措施。"},{"start":2140.14,"end":2142.722,"text":"現在委員提案為賀止抽殺團違法抽殺,避免犯罪行為人所用的抽殺團或器具非屬其所有,來規避責任。因此委員提案針對第三項所定的"},{"start":2159.714,"end":2160.755,"text":"現在在司法實務上﹚確實有因沒有證據來證明傳組是共犯﹚那不符合刑法38條第二項"},{"start":2180.922,"end":2189.724,"text":"公犯罪所用之物必須要屬於犯罪行為人的這個要件而因此在判決撤銷抽殺傳沒收的這個判決那為免日後呢可能有違法抽殺傳行為人規避這樣的沒收的罰則那弱化了嚇阻的這個違法行為所以委員提案修正的第36條第三項來徵定不問屬於犯罪行為人與否都可以沒收的這個規定"},{"start":2210.07,"end":2211.653,"text":"作為刑法38條第二項的特別規定本部表示支持以上簡單說明"},{"start":2219.431,"end":2246.658,"text":"那我們謝謝部長的報告那我們另外有農業部國防部跟海委會的報告那請各位可以自行參閱那列入紀錄公刊登公報我們現在進行尋答那委員諮詢時原理做以下宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員5分鐘必要時的延長1分鐘非本會委員4分鐘那我們上午"},{"start":2249.089,"end":2253.951,"text":"10點截止發言登記首先請登記第一位賴瑞榮委員發言"},{"start":2266.872,"end":2278.497,"text":"部長辛苦了繼續為臺灣的經濟打拚謝謝我先第一個請教昨天我看到民眾黨總統候選人柯文哲在臉書說潮間帶彰化的潮間帶插滿了風機請問部長這是不是事實"},{"start":2282.844,"end":2301.129,"text":"事實非常明顯就是現在688隻的風機要嘛在路上要嘛在海上沒有任何一隻是插在潮間帶那因為潮間帶本身也是生態敏感區規定上本來就不可以設置事實上也沒有"},{"start":2301.909,"end":2302.229,"text":"為何會有這樣的信息?"},{"start":2319.734,"end":2339.621,"text":"我想這個會很容易造成很大的一個錯誤的訊息所以我們經濟部在第一時間務必已經做了理解部長今天我看到的是昨天有做了一些澄清我希望今天部裡面要再繼續強力做澄清了好不好是的是的因為一方面是不要讓不是這個假訊息不確訊息不斷去影響到整個這個民心好像一副好像執政的團隊完全不照顧這個潮間帶連風機都硬把它弄上去"},{"start":2347.824,"end":2347.944,"text":"副主席"},{"start":2363.968,"end":2374.311,"text":"會不會請柯文哲總統候選人那邊來做修改?今天早上我剛剛看上一次電台前還是貼著同樣的貼文貼著昨天發了稿到現在一直沒有做修改部長會不會請柯文哲總統候選人那邊來修改他的這個不實的一些訊息?"},{"start":2387.654,"end":2410.166,"text":"我希望經濟部要有一些動作提醒他們要做修改就像當時李鴻元一樣很努力的去要求他做了這個以後道歉修改之後他做了修改那這些事情我們假設是他的幕僚的不小心的作業疏失但是要趕快修改不應該我想國家的能源政策、風機政策、再生能源政策或潮間帶的一些保育都是重要的事項不應該這個輕易的用這樣的方式來誤導民眾"},{"start":2411.587,"end":2412.288,"text":"對於長期市區在這個地方的"},{"start":2433.53,"end":2452.398,"text":"他本身沒有房子也沒有地的那他也許不管是在這邊住了多久從小到大也許念國小國中或者是他離開了去這個故鄉去就學再回來但是他是個市居者在當我們要讓他離開這個地方的時候能不能再多給他一些些的照顧"},{"start":2452.978,"end":2473.292,"text":"現在我知道可能也許只是給他一個10萬塊就請他要搬走當然我知道有一些社會住宅的照顧或什麼的但我講的是就情感上面的話他在長期住在他的故鄉裡面讓他離開了以後至少讓他能夠有一些手裏有些充裕的一部分的資金能夠去做一些生活上的調度"},{"start":2473.872,"end":2494.831,"text":"你每個要離開自己的故鄉是很不得已的啦那你離開了你政府給個十萬就要他一定要走我覺得這個能不能部長在這一塊也許他人數不多也許一千人也許是吧因為我們要求是市居真正住在這邊的人幾乎都不要或是不是市居我也不要我如果你這個部分照顧的話可以讓整個千村後面的執行做得更完美更順利一點部長同意嗎"},{"start":2495.631,"end":2502.453,"text":"謝謝委員那委員一直在提醒這件事情那也做了很多次的瞭解跟協調那這個部分我們也會跟高雄市政府針對委員這個明確怎麼明確這個市居這個問題我們會再來跟高雄市政府細談這個很多的細節"},{"start":2513.277,"end":2540.02,"text":"那大的方向就是去照顧這個大林埔這一些無房無屋的這一些人來做更好的一個錢存這個是確實是我們的目的我希望經濟來朝這個方向這件事情上面因為有房有地的其實我們做了很多的努力包括其他的弱勢的我也相信弱勢的我們也都做很多努力但是對於這些的無房無地他可能是住在租來的房子的或者是但是他竟然市居在這個地方"},{"start":2540.78,"end":2565.371,"text":"若不簽署他一樣在這邊有固定他的生活那我們讓他離開若給他手邊充裕的一些些的搬遷的補償金的話我認為整件事情會更圓滿我們不希望未來將來看到很多的很這個不愉快的一些畫面出現我認為這對於一個美意政府努力做的美意有可能大打折扣我也希望這個部分請部長再跟市府溝通我們來妥善把它處理好甚至最後100如果把它做好"},{"start":2565.911,"end":2585.862,"text":"他也許經費就是也許是幾億而已也許是一億兩億三億但是有可能讓整件事情圓滿很多謝謝委員的提醒好謝謝那再來我請教一下其實整個經濟狀況大家都很關心那我看服務業整個緊急來回升了到明年應該都還是相當強勁吧服務業一直都非常好對所以明年應該會更好了明年應該還是維持今年的這樣的一個態勢那製造業的部分我看連續燈號已經16個月來攀升了那明年應該也會更好吧"},{"start":2596.028,"end":2598.429,"text":"所以明年看來整個因為燈號也連續16個月往好的方向在轉了那看來明年應該整個景氣狀況會越來越好吧"},{"start":2617.277,"end":2617.338,"text":"主席"},{"start":2638.86,"end":2639,"text":"副委員"},{"start":2659.091,"end":2661.272,"text":"謝謝委員的支持跟鼓勵那我想我們長期在公務部門我們不僅要管這個國家的這個大政但是我們對經濟的發展的各個面向那像委員的要求也好那人民的訴求也好我們都要照顧"},{"start":2687.982,"end":2690.445,"text":"所以在這幾年來不管是從疫情開始從美中貿易戰吸引這麼多的投資回來到現在我們讓台灣的半導體台灣的伺服器產業成為全球重中之重那這個都是一點一滴我們努力來我想我們持續在努力做這個事情"},{"start":2705.52,"end":2723.993,"text":"我自己也擔任過的4年的首長包括經濟新聞局長3年半我很清楚知道當你有縱觀的視野的時候你每天至少開主管會議跟所有的這個首長們都一起開所以部裡的業務是非常的熟悉那具有視野具有格局的時候我認為都是會非常好的部長人選我也希望趙少康這樣的發言其實並不恰當他對於優秀的公務人員對優秀長期培養的其實並不公平我們期待國家未來繼續舉差讓更多優質的人員為國家來服務是的謝謝部長"},{"start":2735.521,"end":2735.801,"text":"陳婷菲委員"},{"start":2760.127,"end":2786.78,"text":"部長你知道我一直很關心生發二期的問題那你們現在是用拖的方式嗎?也就是到目前為止沒有任何人給我報告到底發生現在的狀況到底怎麼了?然後我再提供一個資料給你二期目前都還在變更當中喔!送能源署在變更當中喔!可是你知道他們已經在試營運喔!有爆炸聲欸!"},{"start":2788.231,"end":2789.998,"text":"居民聽到有爆炸聲欸"},{"start":2791.957,"end":2816.216,"text":"而且是有火光欸跟委員報告齁那鄉能源局申請這個是正式的營運那營運前的部分他本來就要做一些準備什麼叫做準備今天做準備可以有所謂的整個時機運轉嗎你今天都已經還沒有核准他變更喔今天不是申請營運喔今天是他還在申請變更喔申請變更你還不知道可不可以過喔"},{"start":2822.281,"end":2823.782,"text":"看了變更會不會影響到安全的問題會不會影響到我們整個運作的問題人民的安全公安在哪裡什麼叫還在申請變更然後就可以試營運再申請運轉還要離運轉還有一段時間了"},{"start":2840.802,"end":2847.568,"text":"沒有錯他其實是拿到執照以後他才可以拿到可以試運轉阿對啊他拿到執照變更的執照之後變更完之後才能申請要申請運轉在申請運轉的這個前面過程才能所謂的試營運才能真正去達到他的一個方向現在到所謂的試運轉階段都還沒到喔"},{"start":2866.005,"end":2866.586,"text":"我會請能源署跟委員再做詳細的說明"},{"start":2892.861,"end":2912.164,"text":"你每次都說說明每次都說說明可是說明到現在我得不到任何的資訊我得不到任何的資訊我只有看到一路的包庇市政府也在包庇中央政府也在包庇然後呢地方呢地方所有民眾苦不堪言然後被這些爆炸聲被這些光點嚇死了"},{"start":2921.075,"end":2921.095,"text":"委員長"},{"start":2951.155,"end":2952.076,"text":"事實上要有SOP嗎?"},{"start":2973.431,"end":2987.262,"text":"其他的電廠人家都要走到哪裡變更到哪裡就只有申報可以一次到位然後一次提出申請沒有啦他一定都是按照相關的我告訴你部長你還在幫他你又不知道資訊你怎麼在幫他呢什麼叫我已經一次兩次三次在這裡提出了這些問題你們還搞不清楚"},{"start":2999.259,"end":3004.183,"text":"你們是裝作不知道甚至在審預算的時候我也要求審預算的裡面內容已經有附帶決議你們也不管嗎你們也不管嗎那今天還沒變更完成都還沒去開地方說明會他就可以試營運喔他好大喔他好大我好怕還有你們今天"},{"start":3025.987,"end":3042.355,"text":"我要求在他們自己未來在我們民營電廠所有要自己去所謂回饋的這個40%的部分我們要怎麼做監督這些監督的SOP在哪裡到目前為止一個月了也沒有資料"},{"start":3043.479,"end":3043.519,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":3069.141,"end":3075.123,"text":"謝謝陳婷菲陳委員好我們下一位請楊瓊英楊委員發言這期本期想邀請漁業署一起好了跟部長好嗎好因為只有5加1謝謝請我們王部長跟我們漁業署劉組長"},{"start":3102.091,"end":3112.295,"text":"委員長,我們在109年11月29日的新聞看到,非本國籍的臭沙船在澎湖淺灘,金門跟馬祖"},{"start":3119.798,"end":3119.938,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":3146.038,"end":3157.412,"text":"未經許可,以船舶或其他機械設備的方式,在我國的淚水及領海,依照我們台灣地區人民關係條例第29條的第二項公告,"},{"start":3164.32,"end":3179.907,"text":"這個公告非常清楚,也就是說金門馬祖海沙地區的限制禁止水域採取土石執行者也明定了犯罪用的船舶或其他機械設備,經判決沒收確定,得視其情況、個案需要為適當處置"},{"start":3191.772,"end":3216.824,"text":"以懲不法以受嚇阻的作用部長你頻頻點頭所以本席要請教那麼在於漁業署的立場針對於末路船隻的後續處理到底是拍賣或者是當漁交那漁業署你有什麼樣的完善的規劃以避免留在那邊干擾了我們的港口的一個運作請教部長"},{"start":3220.293,"end":3237.76,"text":"跟委員報告在過去行政院有開過會議有相關的就這個漁船被沒入部分有相關的這樣的一個程序有拍賣有這樣的一個可能有拍賣那可能有做一個國防部有做一個這個這個把船那另外漁業署部分的我們也有盤點"},{"start":3238.76,"end":3242.681,"text":"部長我們的法律明明規定有這樣的一個處理方式所以本期具體建立我們必須要積極作為因為港口是很寶貴如果放在那邊不理它那會影響到我們整個港口的運作好不好"},{"start":3266.308,"end":3266.909,"text":"本席要請教部長"},{"start":3288.77,"end":3309.318,"text":"部長我們實質討論我也一直在跟你討論就是說我們要跟世界接軌2050年淨零排放的目標那臺電跟歐洲商會也發表了淨零入境的報告書在這個情況之下針對於氫能、電動車、能源儲存、電網升級跟風險管理、太陽能、發電"},{"start":3316.161,"end":3318.783,"text":"封閉發電機的葉片回收封閉發電機的葉片回收封閉發電機的葉片回收封閉發電機的葉片回收封閉發電機的葉片回收封閉發電機的葉片回收"},{"start":3343.698,"end":3344.818,"text":"前十大的排碳大戶的前三名是誰?"},{"start":3370.735,"end":3397.473,"text":"這是公布的資料跟委員報告我們看到的是台塑、中鋼、台積電等等你第一個是台電你為什麼不講但是因為台電它是發電給別人用所以在現在的碳費裡面是不包括台電的但是它是源頭啊本集跟你所說的是排碳大戶請針對議題回答排碳大戶不是有收跟沒有收"},{"start":3399.315,"end":3416.238,"text":"接下來我們再來討論那跟前一年的排名是大致相同但是我們減碳的壓力他是有增無減所以我做兩年度的一個比較能救前十大還是前十大"},{"start":3417.559,"end":3420.241,"text":"壓力一直大,但是前時代還是前時代,我們政府有什麼作為呢?本席要請教,在2024年開始要開增碳費,實質上是在2025年正式收費,所以正式進入了排碳的有價時代。"},{"start":3439.035,"end":3445.116,"text":"好 所以針對於我們國營事業也是排碳大戶的情況之下本席要聽部長你有合作為具體的規劃來要求相關的前十大要怎麼樣近鄰這個轉型能夠成為一個表率呢尤其是我們國營事業單位請做說明"},{"start":3460.82,"end":3463.481,"text":"中油在前十大他是第十名公司是第十名所以兩年度比照起來他都是在前十名所以本席針對本席的問題提問你要怎麼樣去讓他們具體"},{"start":3487.529,"end":3498.135,"text":"有方案去讓他們去排除在前十大因為壓力越來越大那我們的作為本身要聽到的是我們的作為是什麼呢因為委員針對國營事業那台電的部分在我們目前的為止所以為什麼我們要爭氣才可以減煤所以我們也同意"},{"start":3509.241,"end":3512.663,"text":"爭氣乃在兩年後中我必須要演一期演檔開這個是我們共同中央地方合作也要謝謝那接下來你什麼作為呢再來就是說相關的這個減碳的這個作為呢其實各個廠或者是各個公司裡面呢其實我們都定期在追蹤他們有做減碳那中油公司也是一樣這個都是我們配合這個相關的一定要做的"},{"start":3537.876,"end":3543.62,"text":"那包括甚至不是這個國營事業的中鋼我們也是強烈要求中鋼要積極減碳那事實上我們去盤點這個十大的這個碳排的這個大戶呢在這幾年裡都有在很積極的做減碳但是像有一些的部分不容易減的部分呢就要去找新的方法所以在鋼鐵業的部分中鋼中農部分呢我們的現在都在積極用這個相關的這個鋼料呢做比較"},{"start":3567.416,"end":3572.6,"text":"本期之所以問這個題目主要如果政府帶頭做相關的私人企業等他們會跟著所以本期希望政府要有所作為能夠當我們整個經濟的一個表率這個非常重要所以因此"},{"start":3595.217,"end":3601.74,"text":"我們一起努力那你也把你們目前所做的具體方案送一份書面資料給本席最後我給你一個功課我還是要拜託因為在我們所有的中小企業裡頭我們現在也努力像我們亞談神他們努力在做發表了40家未來我們會更努力希望下一次部長你可以來給我們鼓勵鼓勵"},{"start":3621.269,"end":3647.425,"text":"那但是我們所有的中小企業還是很緊張還是多數不清楚因為成本問題非常的重要尤其在我們中部地區整個機械類別我相信布達你清楚很緊張做兩天做三天修四天修五天已經呈現所以我希望政府要好好的來協助我們我們一起加油好不好是的謝謝"},{"start":3650.148,"end":3673.389,"text":"好,謝謝楊瓊英、楊委員。那下一位請翁崇鈞,我們那個翁委員質詢。我請部長還有議會署的組長。那部長我因為時間的關係齁,我想就簡單啦齁。第一個就是我們上次去加疫考察的時候沒有到,但是"},{"start":3675.256,"end":3697.652,"text":"那些署的署長他是有去的但是在那些當中我們考慮到要做一個就是大概類似綠能的教育示範的這樣的一個區域那要用到我們的台塘的土地新莊治洪池的保渾後來我們跟台塘這邊接觸之後我們才了解到說原來這個部分"},{"start":3699.053,"end":3717.911,"text":"現在他是做給我們經濟部去評價的,所以我在想你回去的時候,可以不可以再交代我們能源署這邊,因為在現場裡面他是有答應,但是我們希望說這個部分因為屬於台廠的部分,我們原先是以為是台廠的嘛,現在是我們來台中做我們經濟部,所以這個博文是不是你可以回答?"},{"start":3721.835,"end":3733.345,"text":"能源署的署長又署長再提一下這個部分希望他能夠繼續支持一下好不好好好謝謝委員好第二件事情我們現在去看的很多的這個漁電共生的案子"},{"start":3734.352,"end":3755.006,"text":"同時這和能源署也有關係,但是我們漁電共生的部分加一些希望能夠變成一個白蝦的故鄉,所以我們是希望來推動白蝦這種的養殖,漁電共生裡面用白蝦的養殖來作為我們一個示範區,那好不容易我們也協調了我們的業者"},{"start":3755.846,"end":3776.519,"text":"讓他同意把一個區域劃出來作為一個示範區因為他還是有一些他的專利所以他不太願意給業者去參觀但是後來他願意提供一個區域這個部分我想就是經濟部跟業主這一邊你們應該要做一個充分的配合"},{"start":3777.219,"end":3788.235,"text":"一個就是說它是一個分成一個室外的一個是室內的這種養殖一電公升的養殖但是背後其實就是說在現場在那裡吃的人在說一百塊有時候存不到一百啦"},{"start":3792.501,"end":3801.088,"text":"所以根本預承力很低,這是一個很重要的課題,所以業屬這邊,你們跟經濟部要怎麼去做一個配合,怎麼搭配,我們要把它做一個示範區之後,我們像這些種苗的取得,我們養殖的過程,科技的監測,這些都是屬於你們要去統籌去做一個規劃的。"},{"start":3816.079,"end":3833.052,"text":"從來這個部分都可以成功,所以我在這邊科查的時候我特別強調說我過去上一屆我在當立委的時候我特別提到要做一個餘電共生的示範區就是說在嘉義的沿海所在,現在我們是雲嘉南三個縣市變成一個示範區"},{"start":3834.153,"end":3850.621,"text":"我希望這個工作部長跟業主這邊跟農業部這邊你們要充分配合來合作推動這個工作讓我們白鄉的故鄉這個夢能夠實現也讓我們的伊甸公村能夠有一個真正的可以落實的一個地方做示範好不好"},{"start":3851.694,"end":3873.089,"text":"好 謝謝委員那委員去看就知道現在漁電共生慢慢成效出來那確實可以讓這個白蝦的這個生產那個存活率高非常多那這個部分我們會跟漁業署積極來這個看這個怎麼樣讓更多的人可以知道這一些的怎麼樣漁業署長我希望你回去你也要跟部長再提一下好不好因為時間的關係我就執行到這裡"},{"start":3879.172,"end":3904.153,"text":"好那謝謝翁崇鈞翁委員那我的諮詢就最後一個了我最後一個諮詢那我們下一位請蘇志芬蘇委員諮詢蘇志芬蘇委員不在蘇志芬委員不在好那下一位請邱奕穎委員邱奕穎委員邱奕穎委員不在請李桂民委員李桂民委員李桂民委員不在請陳焦華委員諮詢"},{"start":3913.9,"end":3917.422,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請部長有請部長好 委員好 部長早是部長今天我們來看就是土砂歷史那之前我也質詢過就是有關土砂歷史的問題包括它的採取還有它的"},{"start":3942.353,"end":3957.798,"text":"運送,如果很難管理,或者是管理不當了,就是會很容易受到廢棄物的混合,然後或者是作為廢棄物的這種掩蓋的工具"},{"start":3958.778,"end":3984.413,"text":"不當掩埋的掩蓋的工具所以今天就是希望經濟部能夠瞭解這個問題然後瞭解如果說我們把它國有化國有化能夠來阻止避免這個不當的情到那部長你認為這個做法上或者是說在台北港我們目前有開放"},{"start":3985.793,"end":4001.685,"text":"因建土石方的這個﹐不必到土資廠去那這個制度面我們怎麼樣來做更進一步改善能夠讓這樣的做法能夠更普遍"},{"start":4003.498,"end":4018.074,"text":"謝謝委員那我的了解是委員也有在這陣子針對這個希望能夠朝這個方向來走那這個部分後續呢行政院會邀請這個經濟部內政部等等會來討論怎麼樣做好更好的管理是"},{"start":4022.778,"end":4045.18,"text":"所以就是說未來會有更妥適的做法部長再請教因為我剛從COP28的會議回來這一次我們知道明天COP28就要結束目前有幾個方向就是包括再生能源希望能夠有"},{"start":4047.663,"end":4054.496,"text":"變成到2030年有變成現在的三倍那部長你覺得這個部分我們做得到嗎"},{"start":4056.101,"end":4079.013,"text":"謝謝委員那確實再生能源是這一個一百二十幾個國家的這個共識那這個跟本部或者台灣在推動再生能源是一樣的方向所以再生能源上來之後現在已經增加為七倍但是相對的我們還是有很大的空間要去努力所以再生能源我想應該是"},{"start":4080.154,"end":4084.397,"text":"大家不要用政治的角度來看而是這個是臺灣一定要做那企業的需求也是很大所以在2030年的企業的需求面我們持續盤點那確實是被國際上的供應內的要求也好被國際社會的要求也好應該都是要加大來發展再生能源"},{"start":4100.788,"end":4106.253,"text":"這次也有22國參與國,其中大部分都是第一位國提出核能的問題,核能加倍的問題。但是他們在說明裡面也是說能夠妥善的處理和廢料。"},{"start":4121.067,"end":4122.248,"text":"臺灣的問題也比較比較難以解決的問題那不要講遠的我們現在聯合二的"},{"start":4142.159,"end":4143.58,"text":"臺灣的部分一個是安全一個是核廢料的問題那在22國的這個提議裡面確實也提到說要把核廢料這個處理好那載著這個22國的提議最主要是對未來核能"},{"start":4164.073,"end":4165.353,"text":"所以我們目前絕對沒有辦法去處理這些核廢料尤其是高階的這個核廢料對不對"},{"start":4191.842,"end":4215.22,"text":"現在目前的狀況就是連核二的部分都還沒有但是部長你了解這個實際上的困難是什麼核二的這個乾式儲存的問題現在的困難是什麼呢我想這個部分都涉及到中央跟地方的規範那目前是我們地方的相關的核准的各項的證照都還沒有完全拿到所以這個是個問題"},{"start":4216.801,"end":4235.939,"text":"所以是地方政府的證照那個核准的這個使用執照還沒有給嗎?對,他那個土石採取的相關的證好,那COVID-28還有一個很重要的議題就是在2030年每年每年的這個能源效率能夠提升一倍那這個我們做得到嗎?"},{"start":4236.939,"end":4241.262,"text":"不過這一次德國應該是他們一個團體所做出來我們的評比我們的指標永續指標評比是後退後退步退步好幾名"},{"start":4266.44,"end":4284.585,"text":"但是我是看到這個情形可能是我們的工業的這個碳排還是很多那這個部分就是產業轉型的問題我們經濟部是不是還要更加油否則我們的碳排應該都下不來"},{"start":4285.833,"end":4307.543,"text":"這個有好幾個問題那不同的這個評估的單位他的那個指標不太一樣那這一個的一直對台灣的評比都非常後面甚至在我們後面還有加拿大還有韓國那所以他的相關的指標的部分那其實都環境部都有做過相關的說明但是不論如何對台灣來講我們還是要積極來做相關的檢探工作"},{"start":4311.685,"end":4335.913,"text":"雖然陳儒部長說的就是我們的評比是一個問題但是我們真正的碳排還是在增加那這個部分希望能夠照COP28的這個可能未來這兩天最要做的決議就是能源的效率提升再次能源能夠加倍等等但是我們很重要產業轉型還是要請經濟部要加油"},{"start":4338.934,"end":4363.442,"text":"是是好謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝陳焦華委員那我們下一位請王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員不在請游玉蘭委員游玉蘭委員游玉蘭委員不在請廖婉如委員廖婉如委員廖婉如委員不在請邱承元委員邱承元委員邱承元委員不在好我們下一位請邱志偉委員發言"},{"start":4373.803,"end":4374.528,"text":"來 謝謝主席 請王部長 請部長"},{"start":4383.756,"end":4406.391,"text":"委員長,雖然選舉投票剩下一個月,但是還是要堅守崗位,一定要,服務員的工作一定不會受到選舉任何的影響,該來我就是會來,該質詢還是要質詢,該審查法案還是要審查法案。今天第一個問題請教部長,就是說有些對核能的想法,"},{"start":4407.532,"end":4427.233,"text":"現在這個全球對核能的見解或者這個對未來趨勢有不同的看法特別是這個歐盟把這個視為歷練的一部分那核能可能跟過去的核能有不同的樣態不同的方式那不是像過去核一核二核三核四這種"},{"start":4428.874,"end":4449.956,"text":"那可能他未來安全性會更足夠那未來呢我們在能源轉型過程中有沒有可能調整政策把這個未來的核能視為未來這個發電的選項之一或者未來的核能視為這個綠電的一部分有沒有可能朝這個方向"},{"start":4451.156,"end":4459.823,"text":"第一個歐盟其實他是把他核能當作永續能源分裂他最主要是在針對銀行在講永續的時候對核能的機組能不能做相關的貸款等等那歐盟是在這個部分得出一個比較肯定的一個結論但是我們理解他們在討論過程其實爭議也是很大"},{"start":4473.976,"end":4477.658,"text":"對未來的核能事實上我們也都很關心相關未來的發展那台灣核能的兩個問題一個是足不足夠安全一個是核廢料怎麼處理所以未來的技術我們都密切觀察那如果能夠產出很少的廢料甚至沒有廢料這種的核融合技術呢那我們其實都是會樂觀其成"},{"start":4502.313,"end":4507.697,"text":"所以對臺灣來講的話臺灣其實我們目前的現狀就是光現在的這個核二機組的相關核廢料的要去蓋這個乾除的設施都還沒有拿到證照那所以其實臺灣應該是要務實來面對這些問題那也真的應該中央地方大家應該一起合作所以有些在野黨說那如果他們當選會重啟核四你覺得從技術上是可行嗎?有可能嗎?"},{"start":4532.408,"end":4537.711,"text":"合適的部分其實我們說過很多次他不僅是有潛在地址需要調查那合適因為在建的這個過程那確實是這個比較拼湊式的發包那所以造成現在完成的部分事實上原來的廠商也都解散了那他的這個中央電腦的這個部分事實上是沒有完成"},{"start":4559.744,"end":4577.262,"text":"何時重寫的機率幾乎趨近於零?參考鄰近國家,比方日本南韓的做法,他們對未來核能的看法跟政策有沒有什麼相關的新的做法?"},{"start":4578.272,"end":4602.35,"text":"他們在這個日本因為確實在這個福島之後那因為核機組停了那讓他們電力不夠所以日本有讓一些電力在恢復因為他使用期限也還沒有到所以讓他恢復那韓國的部分因為也確實在發展他們的核能產業那另外其實地質環境我們跟韓國相對韓國是比較穩定"},{"start":4607.533,"end":4622.9,"text":"對比我們穩定所以第一個他在發展核能的技術第二個他的地質比較穩定所以韓國就也說要還是有核能的技術那我想我們對未來的核能的部分的新技術我們都會密切來觀察"},{"start":4624.315,"end":4648.04,"text":"那立委之前我請教您關於這個臺積電1.4奈米的這個建廠計畫當然這個很多縣市都希望在爭取當然在爭取過程中是一定比區委的條件那個條件比較好當然這個高雄應當目前為止本期的了解應該是首選其實應該是嘉義吧其實才是嘉義"},{"start":4650.867,"end":4653.188,"text":"首選是高雄,從水電、地質環境、交通、產業居留來看,目前有沒有訂案?"},{"start":4672.495,"end":4696.929,"text":"中游的這一塊地目前再改一個場那是二奈米往北一點就喬克科學園區的第二期那個部分大概也是台南土地大概有一百多公頃原本是爭取要做產業園區現在這個市政府希望說能夠先超前部署預先規劃做喬克第二期這個你們也同意那你們另外一塊要補給我就產業園區你另外一塊補給我"},{"start":4701.811,"end":4717.859,"text":"未來是不是把那個區塊視為作為二耐敏的一個建廠的一定地我想市政府跟我們地方有很強烈的需求有強烈的希望那我們也都準備好了水電各方面都沒有問題"},{"start":4719.199,"end":4748.169,"text":"那未來臺積電是不是有朝這個方向去思考或規劃這個也取決於這個主管機關的意見如果部長或經濟部能夠推薦或支持往這個方向我想他們有2奈米再加1.4奈米那產業居多成型那對高雄成為未來的S2代或是高雄市成為未來的護國城市這非常重要"},{"start":4748.709,"end":4752.371,"text":"目前部長您的看法是怎麼樣?謝謝委員那確實未來的這個1.4要設在哪裡有幾個大方向一個是廠商的布局第二個部分是相關的客觀條件包括土地水電那當然第三個還有包括地方的支持所以這幾個條件都不可或缺那我想這個委員極力推薦那這個我們都一定會在評估的時候會反映出來"},{"start":4776.647,"end":4776.767,"text":"立法院議員"},{"start":4795.141,"end":4822.012,"text":"還是以這個臺積電他們建廠的需求跟規劃為主但是我們還是希望說這個能夠協助這個經濟部能夠協助特別是不管是嘉義或者是高雄我們都在南臺灣嘛南臺灣這嘉義可以未來成為這個跟臺南高雄成為一個財政俱樂園也可以但高雄也更不錯啦所以我們大家一起努力好 謝謝委員是好"},{"start":4826.136,"end":4853.358,"text":"謝謝部長,謝謝邱委員。來,因為剛才拜託邱委員幫我主席,所以我剛才很客氣。好,謝謝主席。那我們是不是有請我們經濟部我們王部長。經濟部王部長。"},{"start":4860.214,"end":4876.968,"text":"委員好部長好部長那因為我前幾天也有跟你反應齁因為現在中國對於這個半導體齁這個晶圓廠他們現在叫做攻擊性投資那這個他們這個攻擊性投資咧他們是針對所謂的成熟製程而不是像台積電這樣的先進製程"},{"start":4878.849,"end":4899.125,"text":"那他們大量的在成熟製程裡面要去搶攻他們的市佔率那他們也抓住他們的目標就是今年就要從29%把他拉到33%那相對的成熟製程我們的市佔率可能會因為中國的搶攻市場那我們的市佔率會下降"},{"start":4902.407,"end":4921.337,"text":"2024年底中國還預計要成立三四二做大型的一個晶圓廠那我現在比較擔心的就是說當中國在做這樣攻擊性投資半導體的成熟製程的這個階段我們想像中國的官方他們因為會用補助然後去壓低他們的成本"},{"start":4921.997,"end":4937.05,"text":"那如果在這樣的情勢之下,未來我們會不會擔心半導體的成熟製程會像過去的LED啦,或者是類似太陽能的相關的組件,因為中國用所謂的銷價競爭的模式,然後讓我們台灣的競爭力逐漸下降。"},{"start":4942.842,"end":4946.284,"text":"謝謝委員那這個也確實是國際社會上非常關切的議題那對台灣來講這個在成熟製程這個部分我們有幾個方向一個就是說即使是成熟製程我們希望它更多的是成熟裡面的特殊製程"},{"start":4960.43,"end":4964.871,"text":"那特殊製程他其實都要跟客戶要做相對接的研發跟驗測那這樣的話才能夠確保說我們仍然持續可以當作國際的重要供應鏈那第二個部分從明年開始的精創計畫也希望對我們的半導體不管是在製造端的或者是在IC設計端的能夠再往前推進而且再跟國際供應鏈更合作那這個確實是"},{"start":4991.179,"end":4996.988,"text":"這個民主自由國家大家也都在思考怎麼樣一起合作來應對部長沒有錯就是說現在全世界國家都看到中國為了他們現在"},{"start":5002.895,"end":5009.197,"text":"他們在現金製程他們大概競爭力拚不過我們台積電所以已經成熟製程這一塊已經被大量的去投入那他們也是想要用這個當武器去掐住全球半導體的供應鏈因為現在所謂的成熟製程包括車用晶片包括一些AI事實上"},{"start":5025.703,"end":5037.994,"text":"因為現在的市佔率還是全球的75%以上都是用成熟製程那如果未來這一塊被中國掐住了一個市佔率那他們再用銷價競爭的一個模式我覺得這件事情是應該要被擔心的"},{"start":5043.478,"end":5068.009,"text":"那所以我們除了自己要精進嘛我們相信臺灣我們除了臺積電護國神山我們還有更多像聯電啊像力積啊力積電他們這些也都是護國群山那我要跟部長具體建議啦我具體建議的就是說我們對於成熟製程如果他們的設備或人才臺灣的設備或人才要到要輸往中國"},{"start":5070.53,"end":5075.794,"text":"要輸往中國那如果中國的這個廠商他們背後有官方色彩的話我覺得我們至少要"},{"start":5078.994,"end":5100.928,"text":"於要有備查或者是審查這兩個強度當然並不是不讓他過去但是他要過去的時候至少要讓我們經濟部可以精準的抓到哪一些設備商可能會跟中國的攻擊性投資會去兜在一起這件事情我覺得部長是不是我們應該認真來思考一下"},{"start":5101.508,"end":5105.452,"text":"做這樣的一個管制那這個也是很輕度的管制那至少保護我們臺灣的半導體成熟製程我覺得這個是不是應該來屬客礦嗎好謝謝委員那這個有一點細膩那我想這個也需要跟相關的國家一起來協商那不過委員的建議的部分我們會回去來大力來思考"},{"start":5124.07,"end":5126.571,"text":"我認為保證這個保安我們應該要早點防範未然因為我們知道中國他就不是跟你做公平競爭阿第一個他們狂過去的海盜王國因為他們有可能就把你整個照抄他也不管你所謂的智慧財產權中國不理這一塊阿既然不理這一塊的話如果我們台灣去"},{"start":5148.215,"end":5163.912,"text":"去參與了他的我們提供設備我們雖然是賣給他設備但是後來他未來他不需要了他就自己做了他就自己做了然後變成台灣去加速了中國成熟製程的進展這個我們要小心好不好部長所以我跟他這題我們要趕快提出我們台灣的因應措施好不好"},{"start":5170.979,"end":5171.879,"text":"經濟部及相關部會、國科會在考慮加疫,包括再生水廠、海淡廠"},{"start":5188.864,"end":5189.225,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":5208.484,"end":5212.148,"text":"範圍是不是可以把我們相關因為嘉義科學園區旁邊就是馬酬後我們是不是可以把馬酬後也納入所謂再生水的一個範圍那以提高未來這些科技廠它需要再生水的一個水量"},{"start":5224.82,"end":5248.184,"text":"是那這個部分應該就是說不要只科學員國科會只管科學園區那委員講的很好就是說如果附近的這一些可以連在一起來思考這個再生水的話那會比較有效率可以再提高因為嘉義的科學園區跟馬籌號大概距離不到不到3公里他相對是很近的所以我們可以如果把這兩個園區用一個一個大"},{"start":5251.545,"end":5251.605,"text":"﹚立法院議員"},{"start":5269.566,"end":5272.128,"text":"拜託部長把我們加以新酒,替我們繼續美顏。我想我們嘉義也希望像邱委員一樣,所說的就是說,我們半導體的整個產業的南帶,南台灣這邊是一個整體佈局,這個整體佈局,大概最北端就是嘉義。"},{"start":5290.426,"end":5314.321,"text":"就是整個藍科創造的這個半導體的藍帶那我們嘉義應該也是要加入這一份子好不好是是好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝不是嘉義就是高雄了這個部長這個特別是剛剛這個提到這個成熟製程的人才跟設備輸出之前我也跟你反映過今天這個主席趙偉也提出"},{"start":5314.821,"end":5339.099,"text":"希望說是不是能夠一個月之內針對成熟製程的部分未來如果你不做相當管制它可能未來這個會佔到市佔率50%所以針對這個成熟製程的這個設備人才的輸出你一定要有相關的管制不管是事前審查還是剛剛這個趙委所說的事後的查備或者是備查都有相關的機制你不能完全沒有管制"},{"start":5339.759,"end":5340.179,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5379.203,"end":5404.681,"text":"部長可以感受到現在都是高雄跟嘉義在關心半導體的未來發展我們都很關心現在除了登記發言委員不在場之外其餘已發言完畢,詢答結束"},{"start":5407.833,"end":5416.76,"text":"委員李玉玲所提書面諮詢列入紀錄刊登公報那未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會好我們現在討論事項所列議案詢答結束現在進行逐條討論請宣讀條文宣讀完畢後再進行協商請宣讀"},{"start":5433.052,"end":5455.559,"text":"土石採取法修正條文第36條未經許可採取土石者處心臺幣一百萬元以上五百萬元以下罰還持霞市縣市主管機關並得限期令其辦理整複及清除其設施藉其人為遵行者按日連續處心臺幣十萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還至遵行為止並莫"},{"start":5456.759,"end":5484.487,"text":"並沒入其設施或機具必要時得由直轄市縣市主管機關代為整複及清除其設施其費用由行為人負擔未經許可以船舶或其他機械設備方式在下列區域採取土石者處一年以上七年以下有其圖形得併科新台幣一億元以下罰金一中華民國內水不含內陸水域及領海二一臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第29條第二項規定"},{"start":5486.388,"end":5513.928,"text":"公告之金門,含東定烏丘,馬祖,含東影亮島,及南沙地區之縣至禁止水域。公前向犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備,不問屬於犯罪行為人與否,沒收之。其經判決沒收確定,得釋個案情節需要拍賣或變賣,或專案報准依下列方式之一處置之,依無償流公公用,二廢棄,三為其他適當之處置。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":5518.439,"end":5531.405,"text":"好那我們現在來處理我們現在就是處理《土石採取法》第36條的修正草案那請問各位委員對於這個修正條文有無意見"},{"start":5534.246,"end":5559.077,"text":"那我先說明一下齁這個因為我的提案捏齁他這個條文跟在內政部通過的經濟海域及大陸交程法第18條的條文原則修正方向是一致但是他們在委員會審查的時候條文的內容有增加一個字就是公權向犯罪用之傳播或其他"},{"start":5560.584,"end":5585.102,"text":"機器設備不論屬於犯罪行為者與否沒收之其經濟﹐其經判決沒收確定者所以他有多一個者跟我所提案的條文差一個字就是增加這一個者那我們是不是在體力上一致我們如果這個條文等下各位委員沒有意見通過的話基於讓他體力一致我們也是增加這一個者這一個字好"},{"start":5586.724,"end":5596.072,"text":"那請問各位委員對於這樣的修正條文有什麼意見嗎那來邱委員這個這是屬於從嚴從嚴的做法部長這個"},{"start":5602.378,"end":5617.818,"text":"如果這樣修對非法在我們這個戳殺船違法這個戳殺行為它的遏制的程度會更強強度會更強那這個部分能不能說出這個能不能有一些數據說"},{"start":5619.576,"end":5642.772,"text":"去年我們沒錄的這個抽燒產都大概有幾燒因為我們重研之後我們大概會沒錄多少燒過去因為沒有修法沒有沒錄因為他不是犯罪行為的人他跟犯罪行為的人船主跟犯罪行為的人沒有關係所以這個部分能不能先講一下這個"},{"start":5643.933,"end":5644.133,"text":"委員好"},{"start":5672.2,"end":5696.874,"text":"特別跟委員報告,剛剛垂詢了有關於這個末路事實上我們在109年到112年到目前為止大陸抽砂船大概我們查扣6艘之前是有末路4艘那這次會修這個法最主要是說因為其中有一艘那個地方法院判決是就是"},{"start":5697.95,"end":5706.196,"text":"不沒路啊所以說前面原來有4艘都已經沒路了那這個法修修了之後其實很重要的一點就是說"},{"start":5707.967,"end":5733.857,"text":"未來我們在就是只要查庫然後法院如果說依照這個條文能夠就是直接沒入的話那對我們在執法上幫助會很大那對我們尤其是土石採取法修正以後這個法律比較完備了那我想這個是有關你沒入的部分跟沒收那另外最主要特別跟委員報告其實我們原來從109年開始"},{"start":5736.678,"end":5759.617,"text":"到現在原來傳原來越界的部分我們區裡有3991艘那到了11年就變224艘那到了112目前來講大概7艘那這會減少的原因也是11年因為有修訂有重罰我剛剛有練到裡面有重罰的部分那現在是針對末路的部分我這次修完以後我想未來在整個"},{"start":5760.838,"end":5782.665,"text":"徵定了不問屬於犯罪行為的與否默入之,那這一部分就比較更能有效嚇阻不法仇殺行為以上跟委員特別報告那請問邱委員對於剛剛的說明那針對條文的內容,柯委員有其他意見嗎?"},{"start":5784.773,"end":5799.91,"text":"那沒有的話那是我們在第三項的部分就是文字上呃增加一個一個字齁則齁讓他體力是一致的那我們是不是這個條文土石採取法第三十六條就按修正文字齁通過好"},{"start":5803.612,"end":5832.039,"text":"好那就條文通過好那我們今天討論所列議案審查完郡擬郡審查報告提報院會討論請問需不需交由黨團協商好那不需要的話我們就不需交黨團協商那院會討論時由本席說明通過這條文及相關法制用與授權主席及議事人員整理好我們議程所列議案處理完據散會"},{"start":5840,"end":5840.32,"text":"副主席"},{"start":5867.526,"end":5867.626,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"15344","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15344","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e12c81503aa54e7225e5a7d9476abbdb346d53a332764a535c6a02b39496844555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open 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3,"end":2025.331,"text":"決定一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員質詢會及答覆或請補充資訊請金融監督管理委員會於一周內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定三、委員審發會、劉明財、高嘉宜所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請金融監督管理委員會以書面答覆通過臨時提案一案宣讀完畢好,我們現在現場委員人數不夠我們等一下再對議事做確定那請議事委員宣讀今日議程"},{"start":2037.864,"end":2038.324,"text":"案,宣達完畢。"},{"start":2063.544,"end":2089.143,"text":"好,那我們現在原力介紹在場委員跟政府官員我們現在在場委員有費鴻泰委員吳秉瑞委員林德福委員那我們現在就委員過我們就先就議事錄的部分對於議事錄有沒有異議沒有異議那我們議事錄確定"},{"start":2092.932,"end":2120.209,"text":"那今天與會的政府官員今天有我們金管會的黃天牧主任委員銀行局的莊秀元局長政企局的黃厚明副局長保險局的施瓊華局長檢察局的張子昊局長另外我們立法院預算中心黃朝勤主任"},{"start":2123.113,"end":2125.726,"text":"法治局、立法院法治局的黃良營組長"},{"start":2128.943,"end":2154.368,"text":"我們今天的議程安排邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主委就開放銀行政策的回顧跟展望還有純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告另外我們要審查本院民主進步黨黨團所擬具中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文的修正草案現在我們先請金管會黃主委進行專題報告"},{"start":2165.103,"end":2180.808,"text":"主席貴委員先進大家好今天大院第10屆第8會期貴委員會第20次全體委員會議陳貴委員會邀請就開放銀行的政策的回顧展望及純網銀、純網保的發展與挑戰進行專題報告、進行質詢"},{"start":2187.728,"end":2210.146,"text":"開放銀行的政策回顧與展望國際間在過去對於開放銀行有發展的趨勢有不同的做法我們參考新加坡與香港的做法是鼓勵業者以自願自立的方式分三階段推動第一階段是公開資料查詢第二階段是消費者資訊查詢第三階段是交易面資訊的查詢"},{"start":2212.712,"end":2232.06,"text":"但為了要確保金融機構在提供開放銀行業務的時候有一致的標準來保障消費者權益我們已經督導銀行工會跟財經公司依據前兩階段開放資料的範圍訂定了相關自律規範跟技術跟治安標準"},{"start":2234.397,"end":2261.066,"text":"為了簡化這兩第二階段申請跟審核的程序銀行如果同時跟多家第三方服務者及TSB業者合作的話可以併案申請那銀行合作的TSB業者已經儘管會同意其他銀行與之合作辦理第二階段業務的話那麼也且有相關的資安措施也不需再審核該TSB業者資安控管目前辦理情況"},{"start":2262.349,"end":2281.184,"text":"第一階段公開資料查詢從108年9月上線到今年10月底27家銀行6家業者參與統計總發查的交易量是4212萬筆平均每個月查的交易量是102萬筆主要是查匯率、利率跟信用卡產品資訊第二階段是消費者資訊查詢"},{"start":2291.618,"end":2308.793,"text":"你也包括相關消費者金融賬戶相關往來資訊所以規範比較嚴謹所以你也督導銀行公會跟財經公司訂定了相關的規範跟治安標準包括領選原則、爭議處理機制、消費者保護、線上授權跟銀行認證的程序"},{"start":2315.677,"end":2328.202,"text":"從109年12月上線到今年10月底有17家金融機構、兩家業者、24個合作案合準上線總計的交易量是2638萬筆每月的交易量是從25萬筆到149萬筆整個的交易量"},{"start":2340.615,"end":2344.299,"text":"從110年的295萬筆成長到114萬年的1495萬筆所以也有穩定的成長第三階段是屬於交易面那麼"},{"start":2352.677,"end":2380.228,"text":"整個牽涉到的因素更為複雜我們請銀行工會洽商財經公司也跟銀行工會嚴律相關的自律規範跟資安標準預計在年底前會核備核備之後進一步在相關業者參與的情況之下能夠進一步擴大開放銀行服務的廣度跟深度其次網路銀行部分"},{"start":2381.311,"end":2391.899,"text":"我們在107年4月提出了開放純網銀的政策方向108年7月公布了三家純網銀的設立在109年底、110年2月跟110年12月合發了樂天、連線跟將來銀行的執照三家純網銀在109年底到111年初陸續開業"},{"start":2408.018,"end":2429.254,"text":"今晚會再協助純網銀業務發展的措施。第一個,持續開放線上金融服務的措施,包括線上開戶貸款申請對象第三類數位存款帳戶的轉帳限額,還有晶片、金融卡、作業啟用、新卡等方式。第二點,我們持續"},{"start":2430.666,"end":2443.029,"text":"保持跟純網銀的業務聯繫跟進行法規的調適因為初期在營運初期它的資訊成本還有建立客戶規模等等所以整個的營運上成本支出比較多"},{"start":2445.148,"end":2464.609,"text":"我們已經從去年到今年至少三次正式的已經跟三家純網銀做面對面的溝通那麼就相關法人開戶存款受信基金銷售的事項那麼在兼顧分控的情況之下同意純網銀得以採試辦的方式"},{"start":2467.348,"end":2490.394,"text":"已完成修法程序第七頁,包括對於基金銷售、境外基金業務銷售和有關保險部分,這些都是在過去這一年我們所做的努力,請各位委員參考。在充實業務方面,除了前面所說的"},{"start":2491.997,"end":2516.304,"text":"純網銀能夠兼營人身財產保險跟網路投保、兼營信託業務之外我們在事辦業務方面在第8頁我們也同意事辦包括法人客戶以非電子傳送管道輔助執行開戶身份驗證作業以及線上申請防盜業務的抵押權設定以非電子傳送管道傳送方式辦理等等的這個業務三項業務"},{"start":2519.605,"end":2544.75,"text":"我們會繼續跟純網銀保持密切的聯繫隨時瞭解他們的需求以更開放、友善的態度去協助我們的純網銀業務的發展在純網保的部分我們也看到了國外有一些國家在純網保公司發展的一些進展所以我們在110年底提出了開放純網銀保公司的政策"},{"start":2546.516,"end":2569.358,"text":"目的是希望推廣創新商品因為希望國內的保險市場因為商品部分同質性高創新性不足希望透過純網保的這個政策引導金融科技生態圈的投資導入金融科技技術數據資源跟金融機構的合作開發創新商品另外也可以擴大保險的這個保障"},{"start":2571.38,"end":2584.513,"text":"我們在111年6月、第10月完成了設立許可及管理辦法在8到10月受理了兩家業者申請純網保後來有一家業者因為相關的申請文件不符"},{"start":2593.733,"end":2616.77,"text":"已經駁回。另外一家業者因為規劃我們認為審查後是覺得並不夠完備所以也決定一無反應。但是我們對於開放保險公司這種電子商務跟跨業合作的努力仍然不斷地在進行"},{"start":2617.901,"end":2646.827,"text":"今年10月,我們修正了保險業電子商務應注意事項跟異業合作推廣保險業業務應注意事項的規定大幅放寬了保險業者跟金融科技業、異業合作與事辦方式辦理創新型商品的這樣的一個法規的程序跟簡化它的程序那目前了解我們也有一兩家業者正在參與前面的這樣一開放的規定在跟異業做一些合作的討論中"},{"start":2648.854,"end":2665.134,"text":"那至於說未來純網保是不是會繼續開放我們正在審慎的瞭解市場上的需求以及未來開放在這個發展上的可行性預計在明年一月底之前會公佈評估結果"},{"start":2667.247,"end":2687.039,"text":"以上為了應應金融科技創新服務的發展趨勢提供客戶更多元完善的金融服務金管會會議在兼顧風險消費者權益的保護之下盡量朝運用科技結合創新鼓勵創新發展多元數位化金融服務的方向去努力以上報告敬請委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2694.858,"end":2720.373,"text":"好,我們現在開始進行詢答先做以下宣告每位初席委員發言8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言5分鐘必要時得延長1分鐘今天上午10點截止登記發言本次會議委員若有修正動議等提案請即送主席台,必便整理現在依登記順序請登記第一位林德福委員上台質詢"},{"start":2739.717,"end":2743.521,"text":"委員長主委早主委我請教因為上個禮拜四財經公司112年度的金融資訊系統年會的專題演講"},{"start":2765.799,"end":2792.589,"text":"那央行的副總裁朱美麗表示數位貨幣CBDC可能會成為未來整個貨幣體系的核心那央行正審視評估探索發行數位貨幣的可能性那我請教黃主委你認為國內數位貨幣發行的可能性高或不高"},{"start":2794.639,"end":2807.743,"text":"若是央行的CBDC的話可能要尊重中央銀行的意見以央行目前的整個研究規劃速度今晚會要無縫接軌數位貨幣發行後的相關業務你認為有沒有困難?"},{"start":2814.938,"end":2835.121,"text":"拜委員這個CBDC的發行國際間是有一些央行在處理但是國內的央行怎麼做目前來講我們沒有看到相關的規劃主委因為數位貨幣一旦推行你認為需不需要推廣這個擴大的普及率"},{"start":2838.898,"end":2853.785,"text":"當然就是既然要用央行數位貨幣表示它是一個通貨當然希望能夠在不同的場域都能夠使用主委因為前行政院長陳聰也說預計2028年全世界主要先進國家"},{"start":2855.356,"end":2879.005,"text":"都將使用CBDC他認為金管會包括央行、數位部三大機關到目前為止仍在互踢啤酒這是橫向聯繫的一個失靈淪為變成三個和尚美水喝那我請教主委你認為他說的是不是事實其實"},{"start":2883.584,"end":2902.575,"text":"中央銀行對於數位央行貨幣的研究我的瞭解是一直在進行其實除了朱副總裁的報告之外前兩年楊總裁有在其他的場合做過一些報告那我覺得這部分"},{"start":2903.395,"end":2905.417,"text":"二、審查本院民進黨團審查程序第三條文修正草"},{"start":2914.642,"end":2943.474,"text":"報告委員其實CBDC各國其實也都討論到一些它的得失優劣了那我覺得這個部分還是央行是主政單位為貨幣的發行我想監理機關這邊不能越主帶袍去替央行決定那我請教針對數位貨幣的推動軍網會目前的推動有沒有哪些工作的一些準備準備工作"},{"start":2945.424,"end":2945.524,"text":"主席"},{"start":2961.866,"end":2975.583,"text":"因為央行租戶總裁說金融數位化已經是不可逆如果未來決定導入數位貨幣應避免去金融中介化"},{"start":2977.216,"end":2998.125,"text":"而且與其他的支付工具並存確保互通性並考慮它的效率性及支持創新我請問主委請您說明國內導入數位貨幣與金融中介化之間到底有沒有什麼關聯性"},{"start":3000.851,"end":3026.159,"text":"我不太瞭解這個論述後面的背景我還是要跟委員報告這個央行數位貨幣完全是貨幣的另外一種形式的發行這是屬於中央銀行的權責主委因為國內數位數位貨幣為什麼要有這個金融中介的必要性你有什麼看法"},{"start":3028.314,"end":3042.432,"text":"我個人不太了解後面的論述的意義是什麼因為金融中介是金融機構吸收社會大眾資金再開放給需要資金的企業跟個人"},{"start":3043.66,"end":3044.781,"text":"二、中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條文修"},{"start":3064.445,"end":3064.725,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3085.089,"end":3099.262,"text":"因為數位貨幣透過金融中介的這種方式達到使用的目的請問以目前整個國內行業中你認為哪些是適合從事金融中介的業務?你認為呢?"},{"start":3101.152,"end":3102.393,"text":"主委,因為有學者一直認為說"},{"start":3123.713,"end":3150.907,"text":"國家數位貨幣由中央銀行來發行在金融電子化的時代下現金將會被取代那對民眾來說要做好市場買賣、夜市小吃等等這些小額的支付店家不收現鈔的支付環境請問主委你認為在臺灣CBDC與其他支付的支付並存的情況下到底應該是數位貨幣"},{"start":3153.148,"end":3173.276,"text":"會全面取代現金還是採用多方式的這個貨幣支付的環境會比較可能首先還是這是央行的整體的規劃不太了解他的規劃第二個即會不談央行CBDC談我們現在金管會推的一個盡量降低現金使用的方案來講"},{"start":3174.156,"end":3193.734,"text":"並沒有說完全剝奪民眾就希望只是鼓勵大家多使用非現金的方式交易並沒有讓民眾使用現金的機會被剝奪我想這是應該是非常重要的因為很多弱勢的民眾他不見得習慣使用電子方式的交易還是要給他機會讓他能夠使用現金交易"},{"start":3194.975,"end":3218.525,"text":"因為目前央行定位數位貨幣的傾向立場金融中介機構在間接金融架構中扮演著資金樞紐的一個角色那透過金融中介的機構的運作可有效來降低整個資訊不對稱所引起的逆向選擇與道德風險的問題"},{"start":3222.474,"end":3234.907,"text":"解決資金流通阻礙固在市場上大部分資金的通融均透過金融中介機構我請問主委現在整個貨幣銀行的所有措施會一體適用在數位貨幣上嗎?"},{"start":3243.695,"end":3243.795,"text":"議員主席響鐘"},{"start":3268.421,"end":3287.929,"text":"主委,例如說像數位貨幣有無銀行利息的產生,要不要規範銀行的管理費用,未來數位貨幣會不會與國際間的數位貨幣同步的接軌,那制度如果不同,你認為到底有沒有相互流通的可行方式?"},{"start":3288.689,"end":3288.929,"text":"主委主委"},{"start":3310.347,"end":3323.398,"text":"美元升息、新台幣貶值、保惠收入衰退等三大不利讓授權這些資金持續的淨流出今年10月中有8個月保險"},{"start":3327.68,"end":3347.325,"text":"總期戶大於保惠收入累計淨流出1641億元續創史上同期最大量我請問主委受險持續淨流出會不會發生市場流動性危機或風險?"},{"start":3349.646,"end":3367.481,"text":"您槌尋的問題非常重要我在這邊跟您報告我想保險公司目前來講不會有流動性的問題它的流動性也不是用保費支出跟收入的缺合去算因為保險業本身就有很多上上有其他的流動性的資產可以隨時去運用的"},{"start":3367.941,"end":3378.556,"text":"目前是沒有而且我們會嚴格觀察整個的趨勢因為目前受選還是存在繼續淨流出的危機那我請問主委對於明年的整個狀況你怎麼看"},{"start":3381.124,"end":3405.251,"text":"我們在前兩個禮拜已經提升了相關保費保險商品的責任準備金利率應該有對於保費的降低有一定程度的影響所以這個部分可能也會提升明年這個對保險商品的買氣那你認為像這些授權業又要怎麼樣來解決淨流出的危機呢"},{"start":3406.618,"end":3419.953,"text":"我想就做好本身的流動性的管理然後在商品的銷售上面銷售更符合民眾需要然後符合接軌需要的商品這樣喔?好,謝謝謝謝委員指導,謝謝好,謝謝接下來請吳秉瑞委員上台質詢"},{"start":3442.17,"end":3471.11,"text":"主席麻煩請金管會黃主委請黃主委上台備選是委員長主委早我今天看到幾個問題想要跟你請教就是今天的媒體有報導說這個中國借選那中國借選的可能性很高加上大量的資訊可能最後都會氾濫其中這個借選有一個工具"},{"start":3472.045,"end":3501.351,"text":"他認為是虛擬貨幣要求這個國安跟檢調單位要盯緊這個虛擬貨幣的這個交易說虛擬貨幣這個東西當然是隨著科技的發展發達好像新的東西然後很多人就會去接受可是他隱身的弊端也實在是非常的多啊那像這個又變成一個簡單來講也是另外一種洗錢嘛他要支付他不能夠透過人民幣支付"},{"start":3502.352,"end":3516.475,"text":"那不能夠透過這個換匯的支付他就用虛擬貨幣來支付也達到他要支付的目的啊所以這個問題不知道你怎麼看台灣到底對這個虛擬貨幣的管理到底應該要到什麼樣的程度啊"},{"start":3517.699,"end":3535.595,"text":"謝謝委員指導我想幾年前法務部在協調相關主管機關的時候就責成金管會作為虛擬資產尤其是屬於支付性質、投資性質的洗錢房制主管機關所以對業者我們就要求他填去洗錢房制的遵循的聲明書"},{"start":3536.736,"end":3556.167,"text":"今年年初,行政委員會指示,金管會作為虛擬資產投資跟支付性質的主管機關。我們在九月份發布指導原則,現在相關業者的平台業者應該在年底前會成立工會。我們在目前來講,明年應該進一步就可以把我們指導原則跟工會的"},{"start":3558.248,"end":3586.431,"text":"自律規範去做一個結合這部分還有包括檢察局這邊也有已經有前段時間有做過訪查現在開始規劃去檢查這是目前我們正在做的事情主委你這樣講我知道你們很努力但是那個願意臺面上話臺面話願意參加工會願意遵守規律的這些的廠商一般是比較優良的廠商比較願意遵守你規範的這個"},{"start":3588.544,"end":3589.285,"text":"二、審查本院民進黨團擬具"},{"start":3610.936,"end":3620.321,"text":"那些躲在陽光底下根本就沒有參加公會根本就一個沒有跟你登記你也不知道的他也在做交易那怎麼辦"},{"start":3622.355,"end":3649.404,"text":"其實這個在各行業都有合法跟非法的這種情況那我們從過去這兩年包括美國的跟香港的這些虛弊包括日本這些倒閉的事情已經多次提醒我們的投資人要跟合法的平台業者去往來當然我們沒辦法說防止每個人不跟非法的業者去往來那只能不斷的去去宣導去溝通對那我想如果要借選"},{"start":3650.504,"end":3665.82,"text":"通過虛擬貨幣這樣的通路來做借選的這個支付工具的話他當然不可能走檯面上的合法的這些業者不可能走有參加這個工會的這些自律的業者"},{"start":3666.821,"end":3695.027,"text":"所以我在問的是說我們臺灣到底像我其實我一直對虛擬貨幣的這個把它合法化的交易我一直是抱持著有一些疑慮但是如果政府機關真的要做的時候盡量擴大納入管理那如何去嚴懲這一些根本就不接根本也不參加自律根本也不遵守這個規範甚至是別人借選的工具的這些的廠商要如何來處理是比較急迫的問題"},{"start":3696.677,"end":3722.074,"text":"這部分其實我們不論跟法務部或是跟相關檢調單位其實也都有在溝通包括洗房法這方面在處理另外第二個問題是昨天我看到謝金河老師他的Facebook上面他在痛斥這個Google去接受廣告然後又有人冒用他的名義"},{"start":3723.612,"end":3745.486,"text":"然後又再開設這些所謂的這些股市的這些詐騙的這些類似股友社這類的東西他還表明說Google如果再不改進他要控告Google那我們以前曾經為了這個問題曾經談論過你說這些跨國公司的一些大型的跨國公司的這個網站"},{"start":3747.905,"end":3766.984,"text":"現在是我們如果告訴他,他就願意下架因為有那個法律規定之後,是不是這樣?是,也是在行政院的督導協調之下我們在今年六月底也是謝謝大院、財委會委員支持《投信投顧法》70條修正那現在有法源了,那其實"},{"start":3768.946,"end":3796.031,"text":"昨天那個消息其實我們了解謝董事長的這個訊息我們自己在政企局自己本身透過自己的管道看到謝先生被冒用我們有跟這個刑事局跟Google Meta叫他下架我們的周邊單位從網路資訊上搜尋也有謝先生的被冒用的情況我們也每天都有通知警政單位去同意去處理這個事情"},{"start":3797.051,"end":3801.965,"text":"此事說,我們雖然有做過這些動作,後面又有新的冒用的情況發生。"},{"start":3805.376,"end":3831.149,"text":"正常來講你們通知了之後通知了Google之後他多久會下架他應該最晚一天之內二、四小時之內就要下架好那希望我是這個是真的很痛苦因為只要是知名人士每一個都有被冒用每一個都有被這樣子的風險當然因為謝老師他在財經領域然後他又是這麼高知名度的人物他受害的可能性很高其實很多公眾人物都有這樣受害的經驗那"},{"start":3833.939,"end":3844.85,"text":"不知道為什麼我們經過這麼多的努力宣傳這麼多努力的這樣子的講還有這麼多人願意相信這些東西這個到底是問題的環節到底是出在哪裡"},{"start":3846.818,"end":3847.779,"text":"主席"},{"start":3865.692,"end":3879.619,"text":"好,那就回到今天的問題了純網銀事實上設立到現在到今年的6月是三家加起來累虧是66億台幣那現在已經是年底了那第三季有比較好嗎?"},{"start":3880.854,"end":3908.262,"text":"今年的第三季有報告嗎?我目前沒有第三季的資料不過看起來應該今年還是有增資有一兩家公司都有辦理增資所以很合理的推算第三季也可能還是繼續累虧啦第四季恐怕也不是那麼樂觀你有沒有什麼樣的想法因為當初這個純網銀的設計是認為說他幾年之後就能開始賺錢嘛其實他要負擔的人力成本什麼東西都是比較低的"},{"start":3909.122,"end":3934.144,"text":"在某一方面是有優勢當然現在做起來好像跟我們當初規劃還有設計有點距離我相信前面幾年是因為有疫情的關係現在已經社會恢復正常了如何跟他們瞭解問題到底發生在哪裡怎麼樣辦法能不能夠瞭解他們虧損的真實原因是什麼"},{"start":3936.659,"end":3945.827,"text":"二、擴大業務,比如說你吸收的存款怎麼把它去待放,然後增加很多以手續費收入為主的一些業務,我今天在報告中也提到。"},{"start":3956.897,"end":3978.67,"text":"或是給予折扣,將會不會比另外﹐比如說我某一家我就給特別的折扣﹐我比另外兩家就更有吸引力﹐會有產生這樣的競爭的狀況嗎?這個其實我們在這個發布﹐記得在純網銀設立第一家設立之前發布新聞稿就有提到就是說當然它有競爭的優勢可是也不能夠用競爭的優勢不當影響市場的秩序"},{"start":3981.011,"end":3997.131,"text":"這部分要兼顧就像好像以前那個網路下單的這個證券商他曾經把手續費折扣到很低那後來工會也不同意阿你們也不同意嘛是類似的狀況這就是給您報告就是說他可以有他的優勢可是不能夠影響市場秩序"},{"start":3999.634,"end":4017.289,"text":"會否跟民眾的消費習慣有關?因為大部分的企業和個人都習慣在現在既有的銀行體系裡面去取得融資或是去存放。我覺得第一個,從國外的經驗來講,像英國的一個銀行,它也是五年之後才開始水一兩瓶了。"},{"start":4017.629,"end":4040.778,"text":"有的銀行,有的純網銀到目前也沒有獲利。這個需要一些時間。另外一方面,消費者的行為上面跟業務的開放和擴大上面都要齊頭並進去努力。我想我們非常了解委員的期待,也了解社會的期待。我們不斷地也在跟純網銀溝通,能夠幫他們做什麼、開放什麼,我們都在努力。"},{"start":4041.278,"end":4068.694,"text":"是,既然設立了,我們就希望他能夠茁壯,能夠走得健全但是我還是回到今天問題的第一點我覺得這個虛擬貨幣的事情還要真的是要再多一些的觀察跟思考因為這個將來如果要繼續存在影響很大我本身認為這個虛擬貨幣本身就是一個很大的很有疑問的東西啦拜委員,我跟您一樣同時持的審慎的態度不過這是一個"},{"start":4070.335,"end":4085.163,"text":"國際間都投資是一個事實我們還是必須要從投資人保護的角度去處理以前最大的靠山是中國眼看著中國的經濟就快完蛋了所以現在很多虛擬貨幣的交易所各式這樣的交易還有虛擬貨幣本身都在出問題"},{"start":4086.494,"end":4100.719,"text":"所以我是覺得這個東西還是再思考再觀察我們非常的審慎一方面要讓民眾有一個合法的管道可以投資一方面要保護投資人這個部分我們會努力好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝接下來請賴世保賴委員上台質詢"},{"start":4118.158,"end":4123.924,"text":"謝謝主席與各位先進有請黃主委請黃主委上台備選謝謝會員長黃主委早今天談純網銀"},{"start":4142.068,"end":4150.479,"text":"這個在參加到現在的虧錢呢?大家認為它break even,就是損利兩平啦,大概最快到2025,你同意嗎?"},{"start":4155.835,"end":4157.716,"text":"美國在1995年到2001年總共500多家的網銀"},{"start":4184.717,"end":4210.832,"text":"結果2005年中間就各個10年而已還在持續營運的不到10家從500減為10家這是美國的例子就代表純網銀你剛才都才解釋一些如果沒有其他的業務你是說純狂、犯狂只是說我透過網路操作比較方便"},{"start":4213.103,"end":4237.818,"text":"那你要跟傳統的銀行競爭都很難競爭因為銀行、傳統銀行裡面也有也可以用網路操作啊,對吧?是對啊,所以就是裡面有niche我就看不到除外的niche在哪裡那些孩子生出來的就是看起來養不大我不知道你心裡有什麼感受你會不會覺得有一點難過的感覺會不會?"},{"start":4240.607,"end":4264.895,"text":"我想我們覺得應該要繼續努力但是目前這個情況也並沒有特別的出乎意外因為本來就是一開始成立的時候它有很多資訊的成本還有一些相關的建制的成本所以你是不是說這三條都需要增資今年就有在增資"},{"start":4267.517,"end":4274.019,"text":"但是爭執的幅度．可能就．我們期待．不會像過去那麼多。主要是因為純網銀．"},{"start":4295.392,"end":4316.13,"text":"因為跟您報告除非一個我個人想的除非一個純網很厲害把你的錢拿進來他給你去投資可是這個要純物的同意啊我是定存的我是活存的你把我拿去投資還經過我同意除非你販售很多金融商品"},{"start":4317.131,"end":4327.695,"text":"你找人家操作,很會操作的,包括來我這裡都可以買到這個收益很高的這樣的金融商品除了這樣子,我真的活不了啊!對不對?"},{"start":4330.062,"end":4352.948,"text":"其實當初三家純網銀來申請的時候主要一個模式都是生態系每一家網銀後面都有些特質有的是電信、有的是社群媒體這些強處都沒有划得到我們再看2017年那時候行政院總教賴清德"},{"start":4355.736,"end":4365.083,"text":"遠東銀行遭到駭客入侵來清德那做了一件一件事情要銀行賠銀行要我賠喔"},{"start":4372.295,"end":4397.744,"text":"來,請問你純網銀可不可以要求預備賠償金因為現在台灣的資安不安全嘛台灣的資安我們世界上隨時被駭客很被駭然後都很便宜被賣掉所以純網銀被駭的機會是比一般的銀行更高你有沒有要求他預備賠償金有沒有目前沒有但是跟您報告可不可以考慮"},{"start":4399.127,"end":4399.508,"text":"財政委員會主席"},{"start":4414.974,"end":4435.366,"text":"那資安有沒有聯聯測試有沒有聯聯測試向你講報告拜委員您是專家啦全法院No.1就是資安風險、流動性風險、信譽風險這些都非常有七大風險現在看到網路詐騙、廣告、橫行下班時間假日更會猖獗我就問一個問題監管會有沒有專制的稽查單位"},{"start":4442.345,"end":4455.89,"text":"二、其他人員下班假日去看一看去看一看說不定我們的主委你的頭被害了也被冒用了然後去說黃天牧說怎麼投資可以賺錢等等的"},{"start":4457.301,"end":4457.721,"text":"你們要不要把這個結果定期對外公佈?"},{"start":4485.1,"end":4492.605,"text":"有啊,我們上禮拜就有公佈現在來講外界會覺得說奇怪蘇貞昌當院長時代打架國家隊14億陳建能打架的這個叫什麼隊啊13例"},{"start":4505.483,"end":4516.688,"text":"這個陳院長是辦公室蘇院長是國家隊兩個加起來27億怎麼越打越多越打越多怎麼這個樣子呢今年11月投資照片就710件超越"},{"start":4520.729,"end":4523.692,"text":"二、金融監督管理委員會財政委員會主席"},{"start":4542.025,"end":4559.035,"text":"有看到這個有被在網路上或是有人申報他被在平台上有這種不當的詐騙行為我們就通透過這個管道要求這兩個平台下架他們必須在24小時內下架如果不下架巡視局那邊就會對他要求要求他改善或懲處"},{"start":4560.497,"end":4581.596,"text":"現在外界對台灣的詐騙這麼的狠行其實只能瞄準幾個單位其中就是金管會因為一直管錢的在你受傷最有可能你工具很多啊你要幫忙是可以幫忙的另外我想今天是常委會最後一個委員會"},{"start":4582.897,"end":4583.157,"text":"穩定資本市場"},{"start":4610.728,"end":4612.729,"text":"政府政策會不會影響政府的政策?"},{"start":4638.051,"end":4666.546,"text":"產業政策、各方面貨幣政策、國際政經情況的變化、國際政經就是國內都有,只是成分的多少而已,因素很多,就像您所指的我們是主權獨立國家,這個Open Banking想股市不限我們一向都是主權獨立國家,這個Open Banking想股市不限,因為這樣我們表現特別好"},{"start":4668.3,"end":4685.519,"text":"我覺得股市基本上就是一個國家它的經濟發展的櫥窗我們來看賴清德院長說臺股超越港股是因為臺灣有主權香港沒有"},{"start":4686.755,"end":4702.443,"text":"我想老半天啊,我想奇怪,就是你講的啊,基本面啊,業績啊,好不好啊,等等的當然我也高興,台灣超過香港,我們鼓掌,好不好當然是我今天就問了,checked GPT啊,就把他問一下"},{"start":4703.704,"end":4725.802,"text":"他說,臺股超過港股表現,通常與臺灣主權沒有直接關聯,有關係的就是基本面、企業的業績、政府的政策、國際環境。一國的主權不是直接影響股市表現的主要因素嗎?這個,老實講,"},{"start":4732.133,"end":4749.191,"text":"這個賴副總統他要怎麼樣去主張他的台獨思想我們都沒有意見尊重台獨精選到底、台獨到底都沒有意見但是不需要連這個也把這個主權扯在一起早就主權早就用了過去香港都贏跑龍"},{"start":4751.093,"end":4774.094,"text":"阿台灣阿香港有沒有主權阿阿怎麼現在台灣早就有主權了中華民國主權早就是在那裡在那裡阿國際表現都比較差現在好了就是因為我們有主權這個邏輯都不通阿我們覺得非常不通的一件事阿那你剛才回答也是等於間接的間接不同意我們賴副總統所講的話最後一個"},{"start":4775.936,"end":4783.148,"text":"報告委員,您不能這樣引申,因為他作為一個說明,應該有後面的論述,可能我們要了解他的論述。"},{"start":4784.275,"end":4807.056,"text":"他的論述就是因為主權啊有主權所以表現好啊那過去表現不好為什麼也是有主權啊這不通啊我說這個邏輯不通啊另外他講到一個他講到說因為台灣經濟果實全民共享香港沒有他講到這個那我們就看啊這個最重要是什麼受雇人員的薪資除以GDP的比例"},{"start":4808.14,"end":4831.308,"text":"台灣族裔下降43%的歐盟、美國、日本大於50%台灣的68%的勞工領不到平均薪資這都是事實啊我就提醒藉這個機會提醒賴副總統你要講一些話台獨理念怎麼貫穿我都尊重但是啊要多做功課啦要說出來永久啦"},{"start":4834.074,"end":4834.354,"text":"主席請管會黃主委"},{"start":4864.301,"end":4879.371,"text":"今天所列的這個專題報告主題除了剛剛已經有一些委員討論的這個有關純網保、純網銀的這些發展以外另外一個部分就是有關我們開放銀行政策的回顧跟展望"},{"start":4881.625,"end":4908.632,"text":"我看這我們開放銀行的政策我們大概包括今天的書面報告就是我們是分在開放銀行部分分為三個階段來辦理第一個階段第一個階段大概就是存單純是公開資料公開資訊的揭露第二個階段則就是在這些個資的部分那進入要進入這個第三階段就是"},{"start":4909.586,"end":4924.524,"text":"牽涉到交易面,對不對?我這樣理解,對不對?是的,比較牽涉到個人交易面的更敏感的資訊就不只是資訊了,它是交易面了這才是第三階段嘛前兩個階段都是資訊啦都是公開的資訊或者是個人資訊"},{"start":4926.431,"end":4951.936,"text":"大概在這個108年9月2019年9月大概第一個階段就已經開始做了公開資料的查詢那在109年12月就是第二個階段有消費者的資訊的查詢大概都可以那我們接下來以我的理解我們是要在今年就是今年年底要實施第三階段是不是要進入第三階段"},{"start":4952.825,"end":4973.603,"text":"是這樣子報告中說是我們說好自律規範跟資安相關的機制把它報備之後呢要讓社會大眾像銀行業者瞭解我們預計什麼時候在這邊講好了恐怕要做應該到明年上半年如果有業者願意去做的話明年上半年對我們自己的準備工作包括這個這個"},{"start":4977.012,"end":5001.207,"text":"我們工會所做的這個第三階段有關交易部分的這個這個自律規範是不是已經有我們有沒有已經擬定出來了?有,就是年底前我們會核備年底前會核備?今年年底會核備他們送給我們的嗎?應該有,有好,送給我們的他跟第二階段的這個自律規範有沒有什麼樣的差別?一模一樣還是"},{"start":5002.562,"end":5009.208,"text":"應該比較複雜,是主要是交易面、資安面方面對,因為他牽涉到交易面,但是我沒有看到他...局長說明一下"},{"start":5012.478,"end":5033.863,"text":"報告委員因為第三階段是交易要發動所以其實資安就非常重要所以現在在那個工會定的還有財經公司定的資安還有技術的標準裡面會針對說哪些可以開放作為交易會定出一些項目來然後應該注意的個資還有資安的一些標準好"},{"start":5036.902,"end":5062.324,"text":"這個你們有沒有回答我的問題啦我是說他們已經送來了你們不知道看過了沒有他的內容他現在的新的針對第三階段的這個自律規範跟原本第二階段的自律規範他有沒有改變有沒有更加嚴謹這針對交易的部分報言裡面其實有幾項重點啦就是說你跟我講有沒有改變就好了有有有改變因為我我這看齁這個"},{"start":5064.606,"end":5092.188,"text":"主委我們第一階段只是單純公開資訊的查詢的時候有27家金融機構來參與有6家TSP業者參與到第二階段開始要揭露個資的時候就說到剩下17家金融機構參與了也就10家他說我公開資訊可以但是你要到個資他就不參與這個開放銀行的部分了"},{"start":5092.998,"end":5094.041,"text":"TSP業者從6家縮成2家"},{"start":5100.795,"end":5121.542,"text":"以這樣子的做法看我們在一開始第一階段實施光是公開資訊我們有38家金融業者27家參加有11家他不願意參加這公開資訊的這個開放銀行的部分那我們接下來現在就要進入第三階段在第三階段的部分我們預計會有多少家來參與的這我們有沒有了解"},{"start":5123.786,"end":5148.226,"text":"我想加速應該不會像第一階段那麼多因為主要是因為交易面牽涉到的資訊特別的敏感所以大家是不是信任那個TSP業者TSP業者願不願意做都是一個因素對主委你講到重點了大家信不信任這個這個TSP業者這個你講的這個金融機構這麼專業都不知道信不信任了更何況消費者這是一個三方的關係這是金融業者這個這個"},{"start":5150.921,"end":5167.644,"text":"金融業者跟這個TSP業者跟這個消費者三方的關係對不對是三方的關係如果說連金融業者他都他對這個TSP業者他都還有一些疑慮的話那消費者要怎麼相信這些他怎麼如何信任這個平台呢"},{"start":5168.835,"end":5192.363,"text":"所以我們陳文寧剛剛也垂詢的所以在我們對於工會跟財經的規範才會不一樣工會是自律規範的部分財經公司是針對因為他這個是完全是線上的他的資安我們對他資安的要求這個是一定是最重要尤其要進入交易成面這個資安的要求但是我們知道依照現在的法令"},{"start":5193.163,"end":5207.5,"text":"依照現在的法令這個我們銀行金融業者本身他因為是國家基礎建設所以他對我們對他的資安要求等級是最高的對不對是最高的但是我們對TSP業者我們的資安要求有到這個等級嗎"},{"start":5209.793,"end":5228.578,"text":"TSP業者必須要透過銀行去跟他之間去制約他,不是透過我們。我們對於TSP業者的資安要求有到銀行這個等級嗎?沒有啊。沒有嗎?對啊。但他事實上他在做同樣同樣的這個他必須可以存款、可以扣款、可以交易可以做這個帳戶的變動"},{"start":5231.636,"end":5253.722,"text":"不過就是像第二階段是吉寶跟遠傳遠傳那這部分吉寶當然是我們的周邊單位啦那相對比較大家比較我覺得我的意思是在這個這個資安的要求資安技術層面的要求上面我我認為說你至少在要進入第三階段的時候對於這些TSP業者他的資安的要求"},{"start":5254.542,"end":5277.217,"text":"應該要有所提升你至少把TSB業者他是不是有涉專業的資安人員這個我們都不知道目前也沒有規範沒有要求更何況如果萬一這些TSB業者他的在這個他是他的網路服務是委外他在委外進行網路這個網路服務的話那這些網路服務的作業他的資安的要求成績就更低了"},{"start":5278.223,"end":5306.878,"text":"委員非常感謝您今天提出來這些提醒因為我自己沒有看到還在局裡審查我回去之後會立刻找局裡面就您所垂詢的重點去檢視是不是符合這樣的一個要求好那在一樣這個部分再跟你談這個消費者如果萬一發生消費者爭議我剛剛講過它是三方關係是消費者、TSP業者跟金融機關三方的關係它有三個合約有三個合約的關係但卻在一次交易行為裡面完成"},{"start":5308.087,"end":5335.169,"text":"這個之後如果萬一發生消費爭議的時候他有什麼樣的申訴管道這個東西也非常重要我現在看到這個這個我們目前的現在到第二階段的銀行公會的自律規範他有規定說他第10條裡面有規定說有關消費爭議與一定金額內由會員銀行先行給付給消費者這發生糾紛之後銀行先給付給消費者但是這個一定金額是多少是各銀行自定"},{"start":5336.09,"end":5344.496,"text":"自己訂多少金額還是我們公會有大家有一個規定的說在多少金額之下你消費你這個金融機構必須先這個局長兩萬塊錢兩萬塊錢報告委員目前我知道兩萬塊是我們規定的"},{"start":5350.93,"end":5370.836,"text":"公會規定兩萬塊因為我有看到臺灣企銀跟地銀行在網頁上面他們有公開說兩萬塊錢他們會先支付但其他的銀行都沒有揭露這些訊息我不知道其他銀行在多少我們會要求大家揭露這是公會訂定的再來有關發生爭議的時候的這些處理機制"},{"start":5371.696,"end":5384.388,"text":"主委現在我們的這些銀行我們目前銀行我如果是跟銀行之間發生消費糾紛我是依照這個金融消費者保護法金融消費者保護法受到保護我有一個評議的程序"},{"start":5385.216,"end":5410.289,"text":"但是我如果透過這個TSP平台他所使用的這個法規我們按照他的自律公會的這個第三條他裡面提到如果有這些爭議他是受到消費者保護法的保護他是受到比較低階的消費者保護法的保護但是我如果是跟銀行我是受到金融消費者保護法的保護"},{"start":5411.793,"end":5424.57,"text":"這部分我們是不是應該要請這個銀行自律公會他們的這個自律規範裡面把它提升到消費金融消費者保護的層級啊?好,我原定槌尋的部分我們也一併去檢討"},{"start":5426.139,"end":5429.842,"text":"這部分我認為是應該最後一點時間我們兩個禮拜之前我們金管會曾經發布過呼籲民眾勿輕信代辦業者有關資金或債務協商等需求貸款勿輕信代辦業者"},{"start":5447.554,"end":5465.628,"text":"我們在11月29號有發這樣子的新聞稿對不對?有,謝謝我們事實上過去10年我們發了十幾次的這樣子的新聞稿啦但是我覺得這個代辦業者我們還是看到在電視上看到有一些代辦業者的廣告啊電視廣告都有啊那到底呢?"},{"start":5466.533,"end":5485.927,"text":"不是所有代辦業者都是非法可能他有些是合法的例如說銀行所委託的銀行自己委託的來辦理這個房貸車貸委外辦理行銷業務受委託的機構這個可能就是合法的代辦業者因為代辦業者在法律上在所有的我們規則裡面我沒有看到代辦業者的定義啊對不對"},{"start":5487.998,"end":5510.864,"text":"主委我們下一次做宣導的時候把它定義清楚是什麼樣的情況之下的代辦業者民眾要小心那你們那天所發的新聞稿你們最後在新聞稿的最後最下面有提供一個說如果有民眾的需求可以這個利用中華民國銀行商業同業公會全合聯合會網站貸款免費資訊專區點進去這個專區"},{"start":5514.535,"end":5519.623,"text":"你們新聞稿這樣講結果我點進去這個專區裡面我看它裡面有關這個業者行銷的這個檔案再點進去我再點進去看裡面的資料是102年了是11年前的資料"},{"start":5531.636,"end":5553.792,"text":"報告委員這個不應該我們回去立刻去調整這個部分我時間到了但是我要跟主委講說這些我們有一些事情我們像這種我們發布新聞提醒消費者小心但是我們卻沒有提供真正讓消費者能夠清楚如何收到保護的這些資訊這樣很不應該是委員這個的確不應該這樣子我們會立刻改進謝謝委員指導謝謝主委請回座"},{"start":5561.076,"end":5564.638,"text":"李貴明委員主席主席我們麻煩請主委請黃主委上台備選主委好你記得上禮拜我在質詢你的時候你告訴我的答案關於這個敵意併購的適格者的這個答案呢跟實情不符這個你知道嗎"},{"start":5591.336,"end":5594.499,"text":"主委,當天你在這個回答之後我光是走到這個後面還沒出大門的時候所有的媒體朋友就跟我講"},{"start":5615.236,"end":5615.817,"text":"二、審查本院民進黨團擬具"},{"start":5632.898,"end":5653.112,"text":"大怒這個不應該講這個古文的這個出處的但是重點是在於知道錯了可以去改它我在這裡還是加冕但是我還是要鼓勵拜託那個主委啊這個我們的憲法規定了人民有知的權利讓人民知道事實的真相可以嗎"},{"start":5654.279,"end":5654.439,"text":"財政委員會主席"},{"start":5670.168,"end":5670.989,"text":"正確市場就是資訊介入民眾就是審慎選股注意風險"},{"start":5697.738,"end":5718.795,"text":"對,但是我們看到十一月的營收它是公佈了十一月的營收我們看起來營收並沒有大幅度的起色可是我們股價它是不跌然後反而竄升了所以民間才在想說到底這個年底的作帳是真的有這個作帳的行情還是單純的做夢這個是炒出來的"},{"start":5722.197,"end":5749.503,"text":"您沒有觀察到這個現象還是說有這個現象民間有這個顧慮但是你置之不理股價有些反映是國際跟國內的一些經濟金融情況的變化尤其我們是以半導體電子產業為主所以跟美國的這個費城半導體或NASDAQ的連結是有一定的程度是因為國外國際的股市有一些產業不是所有所以也要提醒民眾因為"},{"start":5750.883,"end":5756.385,"text":"顯然11月的營收出來的各公司出來的情況都不太妙我第二個問題要請教的同樣我今天問的問題其實都牽涉到民眾資的權利純網銀的虧損是持續擴大"},{"start":5765.848,"end":5790.806,"text":"今年六月份的部分我們看到虧損的數從2022年底再比較到今年的第三季的數字它是持續的擴大這個在五年之內它是可以損一兩平嗎現在目前的現狀是怎麼樣還是這些純網銀的部分它會再繼續投入還是我們的今晚會到底做了什麼樣的一個措施"},{"start":5791.997,"end":5818.725,"text":"今年都有至少有兩家以上辦理增資那我們不斷的跟他溝通他需要哪些業務的開放這是我們在做的對那你有沒有全部公開然後讓全民知道因為我們在搜查這個資料的時候好累啊今天我們的報告就是已經公開了五年內損益兩坪是可以達成的是不是很務實的可以達成我沒有這樣子預估我至少在過去才會有說有一家有可能會在五年之後會有損益兩坪"},{"start":5820.248,"end":5843.156,"text":"因為它開業時間不一樣所以其他的部分它是有你希望但是它沒有辦法達成就是了這是要大家努力的不是只有金融隊那你這個已經虧損這麼多的這個努力的這個金額就是說你欠錢欠一定的比例的錢然後你能不能達成它有一個就是說比較務實的一個評估的方式然後你的鼓勵措施是什麼這個可不可以公布啊"},{"start":5843.416,"end":5844.937,"text":"主委,這個投資詐騙的東西我可不是只告訴你一年兩年而已嗎?對不對?"},{"start":5863.07,"end":5867.412,"text":"我這個以前很早的時候呢就已經提醒可是我們看到我們今天啊這個投資詐騙創新高啊然後解決的部分呢原來啊其實速發部講說是他們有建立跟因為這個唐部長呢跟這個"},{"start":5878.297,"end":5878.518,"text":"二、財政委員會財政委員會主席"},{"start":5896.94,"end":5902.505,"text":"主委,您不會否認說現在民眾用的最多的是Line嗎?對不對?是不是?還是您否認?這個用了多少,我想Line是其中之一吧?多不多?但是多少我沒有這個數據我沒有叫你問數據,我說多不多嘛"},{"start":5923.41,"end":5946.904,"text":"多是一個相對的概念,我不知道……你連多不多你都不肯承認它多不多,那我就回到前面。多很多,多很多,每個品牌都很多。謝謝,謝謝,都很多。好,那我們解決了Google,解決了Meta,Line的地方不用解決嗎?報告委員,Line不是屬於金管會這邊在上次規劃的範圍之內的。好,所以簡單來講,Google是你主管的?"},{"start":5948.513,"end":5949.654,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5974.215,"end":5992.625,"text":"所以簡單來講Meta跟Google的解決跟金管會無關是因為跨部會的關係解決所以現在LINE不解決就是跨部會也有問題所以它沒辦法解決因為這三個都不是金管會主管所以沒有辦法解決邏輯是這樣子嗎報告委員這個我們會再繼續努力"},{"start":5999.151,"end":6027.89,"text":"我剛問你的問題你哪一件事情不持續努力了我們現在要解決問題我們現在要行政單位不是要行政單位一天到晚給我制定這個規定規則ABC然後要老百姓去扶今天你在講說很多的問題前面講說我們要仲介的部分叫民眾不要受騙什麼東西你的職責不再叫民眾不要受騙了是不是你既然是在管你的組長的職務你就要負責好我們再看一下"},{"start":6029.292,"end":6034.681,"text":"主委,你說洗錢房子是你管吧?對不對?金融機構的洗錢房子"},{"start":6037.571,"end":6039.173,"text":"主委,高資產客戶的財富管理會不會變成一個洗錢的管道?"},{"start":6059.82,"end":6080.968,"text":"這個推論我覺得有問題,任何的議員都要說到...我告訴你,我覺得沒問題耶,你知道為什麼我覺得沒問題?過往啊,主委我覺得你應該比我熟啊過往是不是曾經就有過外營然後幫我們某一個政治人物的這個錢呢大筆大筆的洗,媒體上面也有講啊,那個訊息你不知道"},{"start":6081.624,"end":6099.661,"text":"三、合的金融機構業務都有...我剛前面提到我沒有指人道姓的原因是我不希望把這個模糊焦點對不對但那個訊息就是過往外營呢讓這個洗錢的部分呢幫政治人物洗錢這件事情你知道嗎"},{"start":6100.402,"end":6120.84,"text":"我應該有聽說過。好,很好,沒關係,因為我們不講誰嘛。但是呢,現在你去對於這個高資產客戶的財富管理,你怎麼避免類似的情形發生?還是現在就有政治人物需要捲環潛逃,透過洗錢的這個方式來做?有沒有這樣的事情?申請的時候就會去做審查。"},{"start":6121.972,"end":6141.605,"text":"申請開辦業務的時候就會做審查你是審查誰?審查申請要做高資產客戶財管業務的金融機構對,然後怎麼樣子你去審查他之後他就不會有洗錢的問題?你這個邏輯是怎麼出來的?計畫中會列出他在洗錢防治的規劃跟執行"},{"start":6143.544,"end":6154.942,"text":"對,那怎麼樣呢?你過往沒做嗎?我剛前面講的那個案子你沒做嗎?那你都有做,為什麼前面的案子發生了?你現在做的跟前面那個案子發生的內容是什麼差異性咧?"},{"start":6155.782,"end":6184.437,"text":"那是後面執行或是違法的問題很好對不對主委你願意坦誠講我們才能解決問題執法的問題現在你這個高資產客戶的財務管理的部分你怎麼樣透過你的執法的部分確定他不會成為政治人物洗錢的管道我們金融機構也都有跟法務部的洗錢犯罪防治中心如果有疑似的交易那你以前為什麼會發生呢你以前沒有跟法務部有聯絡"},{"start":6185.7,"end":6208.146,"text":"報告委員那個個案我不太清楚我只知道有這樣一個印象對,但是你現在你就要面對它嘛以前發生的就是給你一個教訓嘛對不對你已經上了一課你就要解決嘛這種用迴避的方式我們會盡力我們會努力謝謝委員指導這個真的不必要啦下一個我要請教你就是說主委同樣的我們講虛擬資產監理的部分"},{"start":6210.467,"end":6219.855,"text":"你現在是不做嘛但是我提醒你就說有這個Z世代的這個也就是說我們講說11歲到這個26歲的這個Z世代的部分他們對於虛擬資產的部分呢他的投資佔比是相當大的"},{"start":6226.44,"end":6241.174,"text":"那這個東西你是打算怎麼樣來保護我們這些年輕人還是說你的邏輯就是說我要提醒他他自己做的事情自己負責就這樣子還是說你現在是用什麼樣的態度因為71%的民眾認為他應該要強化你的這個監理你現在是認為不需要還是怎麼樣監管會態度是什麼"},{"start":6250.68,"end":6273.047,"text":"我們是投資型虛擬資產的主管機關九月份發布指導原則年底VASP工會會成立會遞資歷規範主委,真的,你要這樣子念書這樣背的話我們就沒什麼太大意思了你知道X世代、Y世代、Z世代還是你不知道我知道你知道,好那Z世代是幾歲啊1995年以後出生的"},{"start":6274.195,"end":6277.076,"text":"上架、資產區隔、冷熱錢包這些都是我們在規劃中九大原則中有規劃的。那Offshore的你為什麼讓他在臺灣能夠買賣呢?"},{"start":6302.372,"end":6324.966,"text":"任何非法的東西都不是我們能完全禁止的但是我們會廣為宣傳所以你的態度就是非法的部分你就沒責那你要老百姓自己去決定它是合法決定是非法你只做大內宣說你們要自己注意我在最後一個問題請教我就下台那個防疫險的部分在保你有出面協調嗎"},{"start":6326.725,"end":6350.922,"text":"現階段我們不會介入那是商業上的契約那這個債保公司不賠的話對我們的業者有多大的衝擊會不會賠我不確定我不能回答假設性的問題假設性問題你不回答然後真正發生的問題你遺憾那這我們怎麼解決問題我不會說真正發生遺憾真正發生需要相關法律形式程序需要政府機關說明我們會說明"},{"start":6352.557,"end":6358.499,"text":"報告委員,商業企業我們處理的時間是很重要的所以民間的問題你不管就好我再請教你知道寵物保險現在剩兩家毛小孩怎麼辦"},{"start":6372.557,"end":6393.004,"text":"因為它的損失率非常的高所以業者做不下去所以通常只有兩家政府的態度就是說即便就是說你知道問題的發生然後這些民間要處理的事情民間自己處理那我們就乾脆無政府嘛如果是這樣子的一個態度的話那我會認為乾脆就無政府這些錢不下來以上謝謝謝謝李委員"},{"start":6398.592,"end":6400.333,"text":"謝謝主席、謝謝主委、謝謝大家的祝賀謝謝接下來我們請郭國文、郭委員上台質詢"},{"start":6418.525,"end":6442.666,"text":"主席沒有準備蛋糕有選獅子中午可以補送謝謝主席有請黃主委請黃主委上台備選是委員長主委好主委我想那個開放銀行這個部分第一階段第二階段都已經上路了現在好像進入那個深水區就是交易面的這個資訊的部分"},{"start":6444.175,"end":6461.863,"text":"把這一個開放銀行的政策落實具有相當大的挑戰性的階段我個人認為就是在第三個部分我看到第一個部分有27家銀行跟6家第三方的TSB合作第二階段有17家跟2家的TSB合作"},{"start":6462.823,"end":6476.899,"text":"主委,到第三階段的時候,那個TSB的加速會不會越來越少?第三階段會不會沒有?我們預期因為他要求的標準更高,包括剛才沈昭惠也提到,資安上面要特別注意,我想應該不會像以前那麼多。"},{"start":6478.621,"end":6501.363,"text":"現在已經6家2家那以後會不會更少標準越來越高門檻會越來越高門檻會越來越高那因為這一個開放銀行這樣子處理下去我覺得最關鍵的會讓外界最擔憂的部分還是在於這個整個資安風險的一個應對第二個的部分那個主管機關"},{"start":6502.304,"end":6528.707,"text":"到底有沒有可能頒布一些指引規範第三個部分是TSB的分級的制度我覺得這三個部分這樣子那我個人在看這個金融科技的部分往往過去我們的操作模式都把它當成一個體制化的、體制外的沙盒的模式處理當我們付出一些社會成本之後我們再進行修正這是第一個我觀察到的現象"},{"start":6529.608,"end":6533.859,"text":"第二我觀察到的現象就是主委會把這些金融科技當成"},{"start":6535.56,"end":6560.46,"text":"免於來刺激這個傳統的銀行要求他們做金融科技的一些精進跟改善結果這些創新業者其實老實講他的命運就是免於而已事實上他也沒有辦法形成真正的創新業者結果就成為你提升改變這些傳統銀行業者的一個體質我覺得主委是不是有這種可能性先回答前面再來說後面"},{"start":6564.79,"end":6577.076,"text":"其實從金融總會發布的一個金融科技創新報告來講過去這幾年金融業者跟科技業者合作的比率趨勢是大的是的確是這樣一個趨勢"},{"start":6579.375,"end":6602.615,"text":"整體而言是有注意的啦我同意啦只是多數的人在他們人生的那個選擇當中他們可能離開了原來的傳統的這個金融機構投入了所謂的創新金融創新結果後來發現在整個制度沒有完整的時候他們半路就死在沙灘上了啦但是改變了整個體質變成自己成為一個成就傳統業者的一個養分"},{"start":6604.617,"end":6621.017,"text":"這是我個人的觀察這不是重點啦重點我要請你回答是剛剛那個部分啦簡單的講TSB的部分齁你現在的方式整體而言的資安風險的這個應對齁怎麼處理因為他將來掌握了很多訊息啊所有訊息當中在整個第三方的時候來做一個"},{"start":6623.319,"end":6629.426,"text":"統籌來分享這裡頭的治安問題怎麼處理我在想說這個第三方真的有資歷真的有辦法去應對這個風險的管控嗎資訊風險的管控嗎更何況銀行端都還要設立這個所謂的這個這個治安長"},{"start":6639.556,"end":6665.968,"text":"這個第三方有辦法這樣做嗎?其實您垂詢的邏輯跟剛剛沈釗偉垂詢邏輯是相同的就是覺得這兩者之間這三方的關係必須要拉平才能讓民眾有信心那我也特別要跟您報告我個人的想法Open Banking其實是來自於一些歐美國家那些國家的銀行競爭的強度不像台灣那麼強所以它Open Banking有很大的市場在那台灣的本身銀行競爭就已經相對的激烈了"},{"start":6667.309,"end":6688.109,"text":"民眾對於Open Banking第三階段的發展是不是跟其他國家一樣這個我們要再觀察可是制度上我們還是會繼續規劃下去那幾位委員對我們的垂尋之道我們會立刻來去調整參與其中的這些TSB業者當中也有一些傳統的金融機構參與"},{"start":6692.042,"end":6693.543,"text":"中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條文修正草"},{"start":6721.192,"end":6747.834,"text":"目前應該不會因為我想第三方這個開放銀行第三方目前制度還沒有規劃完所以剛剛有委員垂行什麼時候會開始我想我們規劃完之後那如果包括剛剛委員您垂詢的一些事情我們要再檢討的時候我們會再看看整個規範是不是符合委員的期待所以說一部分我們在進行第三階段的一個交易面的諮詢的一個審議的階段那另外一部分的話我們也在考慮說要如何把它建立一個規範"},{"start":6748.942,"end":6767.188,"text":"所以我剛剛提的所謂的治安的部分、頒發指引規範的部分還有分歧的部分都可能在討論當中嗎?有,我想今天經過這樣一個專案報告我們得到委員的很多高見跟指導我們會回去立刻再討論一下現在業者我們報來的東西是不是合乎委員的期待"},{"start":6767.813,"end":6782.481,"text":"那約莫裡面大概會多久的時間會把這一個那個討論做一個初步的成果我們原來在報告中規劃是跟委員報告是年底了那我們看盡量是不是照委員的期待年底前但是也符合委員對於內容上的要求"},{"start":6783.784,"end":6807.593,"text":"主委這個部分變靈納管的業務好像又越來越多了所以說我再追問你一個問題我在總質詢的時候那時候我就問陳建仁那個陳院長但是你個人是不好意思我是說有沒有可能把這個另外把貴單位的整個組織變制多增加一個金融科技區後來那個院長有沒有跟你們進行討論"},{"start":6809.893,"end":6833.042,"text":"行政院這邊有交代我們去做研究我想我們也在研究中研究中那你多久的時候要呈報行政院?初步的意見是在現況中我們還能夠現在接受的新的業務還能夠在行政院同意增援的額度之內去做調試本市已經幫你講話了你還這麼客氣"},{"start":6836.324,"end":6852.817,"text":"未以籌謀可能就要看如果大的調整包括增加局處的話可能要做更完整的規劃我們正在做細部的這個還要牽涉到這細部的規劃約莫多久啊其實大家其實都擔心那個金管會的負擔過重啊不是"},{"start":6853.357,"end":6882.429,"text":"除了擔心你們這個管理嚴格之外這除了負擔之外還需要看看這樣業務的新增設置一些固定的局處對未來的發展的對業者金融業的發展而且對社會現象產生出來我們都能夠去解決這些問題包括科技這些東西當然對金管會的期待又很高所以你的業務一定會越來越重我是建議你這個部分的這一個內部的這個規劃要提早進行向上呈報"},{"start":6885.23,"end":6898.998,"text":"另外一個部分有關於純網銀的部分我看起來有一家不符合規定,不符合摩擦產物保險不符合規定另外一個中信網路產業保險產保基本上他們已經宣布退場這個都是在金管會2022年的時候開放純保裡頭為二兩家"},{"start":6912.225,"end":6938.021,"text":"之所以為二兩家是你們當初的這個管理辦法當中的29條之一關於這個受險的部分保障型的商品限制非常的少那另外一部分呢這個產險的部分與創新型的定義又不清楚所以說你們又對外宣布說明年的時候一月份的時候要開放申請純網保明年一月開放會不會純網保變純網保"},{"start":6941.175,"end":6960.359,"text":"就是就game over了就不會了都沒有業者我們不太確定因為重點是市場上要提供類似這種跟異業合作的一些商品那事實上我們在今年10月已經大幅放寬保險業、電子商務跟異業合作的一些注意事項也就是突破29條之一了嗎"},{"start":6962.581,"end":6962.821,"text":"三條文修正草"},{"start":6971.542,"end":6995.664,"text":"所以說純網保的可能性還會持續進行嗎?還會,對那另外一個部分有關於人頭戶限制的部分您提到說這個明年會上路啦但上路的部分會進行所謂的這個管制行為如果假設它是被規範宣布為人頭帳戶的話那麼它一天只能提領一萬元"},{"start":6997.146,"end":7012.699,"text":"現在問題來了有些人頭賬戶他本來是受害者他一不小心會成了人頭賬戶這種人會不會變成惡毒受害者這個部分謝謝委員垂行我記得有一些例外就是如果他以薪資為主的話他是有一個可以讓他用"},{"start":7015.305,"end":7043.713,"text":"高委員因為這個是所謂告戒戶那告戒戶是警察機關在開的啦所以告戒戶認定權就是警察你們就看警察提供了誰你們就做你們就負責執行你們就負責執行那有沒有連坐處罰他明明是一個帳戶被用了那他其他帳戶也會不會這樣處理因為按照這個告戒戶的辦法的話他是以人名就是那個ID控管所以只要是那個ID的話他在銀行的所有的帳戶都會收到這些"},{"start":7044.853,"end":7065.845,"text":"那將來他還有機會透過TSB的方式來進行交易嗎?這個如果以這樣子來看的話因為他還是帳戶的控管所以銀行在系統上面會把那個帳戶做控管所有的可能性都沒有了好那謝謝局長那最後問一下那個"},{"start":7066.986,"end":7088.842,"text":"其實也是局長的業務就是灰名單的部分灰名單的部分其實就是把這個加碼研議出所謂的殭屍賬戶的一個管控我認為這個是一個不錯的做法這是防患於未然但是目前問題點是這個灰名單的參加業者只有9家銀行加入4家公股、4家民營加一個郵局主委、局長這會不會太少"},{"start":7090.243,"end":7112.203,"text":"報告委員,上次在委員指導這下午,對,我們已經要求就是那個會名單的部分的話會在第一季全部都要上路那剛剛您說的那個是今年,明年一月那到了第一季是全部都要上路全部都要上路,明年一月全部上路,好,謝謝你喔,好,謝謝主委"},{"start":7115.54,"end":7134.082,"text":"好,我們接下來請費鴻泰委員上台質詢那在費鴻泰委員質詢結束之後我們休息五分鐘請費鴻泰委員上台質詢好,謝謝主席各位女士先生大家早安主席幫我請一下黃主委請黃主委上台備選"},{"start":7140.953,"end":7157.523,"text":"主席安排的今天題目我想在這個會期快結束的時候來檢討一下蠻好的請問我們現在的純網銀目前都是很認真的在努力要增資對不對"},{"start":7159.266,"end":7159.807,"text":"主席"},{"start":7176.516,"end":7197.444,"text":"其實大體上來講就是把實體銀行的業務盡量在網路上能做但是純網銀當初他自己自稱他的利基是他有一個生態系可以做一些生態系的一個Synergy的發揮那換句話說一般的銀行如果說要去做純網的業務也是可以的是不是這個意思業務相同只是一個虛擬一個是實體當然實體銀行也有虛擬業務但是實體銀行當然有虛擬業務因為現在是網路的世界對不對"},{"start":7209.314,"end":7217.048,"text":"純網保至少今年好像沒有來要申涉的"},{"start":7217.902,"end":7243.257,"text":"因為去年我們說要再觀察因為去年因為防疫險的關係所以市場受到影響我們準備明年一月底會跟大家報告其實你們要推動純網銀、純網保就是平常講就是用虛擬的網路世界服務我們的客戶可是這個想法基本上都是對的而且日後的發展形象也都是如此"},{"start":7244.195,"end":7246.299,"text":"三家純網銀或日後可能會申請的純網保"},{"start":7254.366,"end":7275.738,"text":"因為現在在推動上有一些困難我們不能講說他不好因為這個都要時間自古來講說十年有成二十年有成你不可能要求他短短的兩三年就馬上就很厲害但是在這個過渡的時期我想請教一下主委我們可不可以也讓實體的銀行"},{"start":7278.393,"end":7284.504,"text":"實體的保險公司他們也去做一些網路上的這個銷售跟服務呢"},{"start":7285.974,"end":7310.815,"text":"這也是報告委員您垂詢的也是我們正在努力尤其是保險網路現在這兩年疫情之後我們開放疫情之後的疫情這疫情期間的措施疫情之後全部維持還有去今年10月我們開放保險業跟異業的合作就是您朝您的方向去做的其實我長期在這裡每次常常問你們我是希望網路服務的"},{"start":7311.876,"end":7334.546,"text":"無遠弗屋界網路服務的很好不要出錯但是因為現在確實是網路的銀行跟網保還在演變對話之中所以我是覺得這個時候實體的銀行如果不讓他們去做給他們一些限制我覺得有點可惜"},{"start":7336.307,"end":7358.287,"text":"我完全同意你的意見我可以說明請知道像我今年特別有一個金融科技法規調適平台其實來的意見很多也都是針對銀行他們也就是說到底你們在網路上做這種銀行的業務還有哪些法規的障礙我們要幫大家解決我是覺得我們"},{"start":7360.202,"end":7361.527,"text":"開放銀行,不自我設限"},{"start":7366.636,"end":7394.719,"text":"不管實體銀行、網路銀行不管實體的保險公司跟純網保目的都是要服務客戶讓國家在這方面能夠進步尤其臺灣我們資源是有限的我們空間是有限的當然在各種的科技上我們要在世界上要走到前面我們才會有競爭力的所以我是覺得思考一下"},{"start":7396.781,"end":7423.156,"text":"有麻煩可不可以儘快給我一個我針對我今天的問題給我一個書面的回答我們主要的目的沒有說對誰好對誰不好目的就是對人民好我上個禮拜也有請教你關於我們全球臺灣在全球前百大銀行我們沒有"},{"start":7424.898,"end":7425.298,"text":"財政委員會主席"},{"start":7448.194,"end":7459.001,"text":"第二條文修正草三、四條文修正草三、四條文修正草三、四條文修正草三、四條文修正草三、四條文修正草三、四條文修正草三、四條文修正草三、四條文修正草三、四條文"},{"start":7470.336,"end":7470.456,"text":"主席"},{"start":7484.298,"end":7500.865,"text":"其實大家對金管會的指導通常說好像我們管的比較多心力比較少那其實我想我們真的也有做一些心力的工作不過如果外界有這種印象我們會加強努力多做一些心力的工作你們金管會都是專業人士了"},{"start":7501.977,"end":7527.79,"text":"我們的銀行在服務國際相對於香港、新加坡我們就針對這兩種國家好了國家地區是我們平常講他們是比較管那個他們可以服務的對象是比較寬的至少在幣值上在貨幣上我們好像處理其他的貨幣的服務相對於對香港、對新加坡我們是需要來努力的"},{"start":7529.03,"end":7547.461,"text":"二、全球性銀行有全球網路,所以大的企業需要全球服務的話,我們的銀行是沒有佔到便宜。還有一樣,我們的觀念加上我們的人才,你要服務國際的話,你的英語能力要強。"},{"start":7551.844,"end":7560.852,"text":"像香港很多人都從小受英文教育新加坡基本上他的溝通的語言就是英文"},{"start":7562.193,"end":7579.68,"text":"這方面曾經在蔡英文總統上來以後她要開放有一些外籍人士可以來臺灣在金融就業其實這個觀念是對的我也很支持當時我也沒有反對請問我們這個政策落實的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":7584.733,"end":7600.825,"text":"國發會有一個金卡的一個制度這其中有很多也是金融業好久沒有聽到金卡的業績報告我覺得在金融業這方面真的需要加強我剛才講我們的銀行保險"},{"start":7605.629,"end":7632.29,"text":"他佔GDP現在是6 6.5上下了在那邊搖擺不是搖擺在那邊在那邊Pending如果我們可以增加到10我們一個GDP是多少錢我們去年我們22兆一個GDP就是2點就增加很多我們如果增加5個GDP就是增加1兆多對不對"},{"start":7634.249,"end":7661.3,"text":"可以創造多少的就業可以讓整個國民的GDP提升多少其實你們金管會這一點我是覺得蠻重要的不要把自己小看我上個禮拜跟今天我同樣針對這個問題對不對我們只要在GDP上的產值增加1%你就知道對台灣的貢獻有多大"},{"start":7662.133,"end":7687.502,"text":"所以我我我平常講我對我們金管會啊的同仁的專業我都非常的肯定剩下就是你們要去遊說我們的政府這在政策方面如何要把它想的宏觀一點想的前衛一點在人口在人才的落實方面像金卡當時蔡總統剛上來的時候金卡我是覺得是對的但是"},{"start":7688.24,"end":7710.155,"text":"二、國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及國際社會保障及"},{"start":7714.352,"end":7740.596,"text":"我希望您以後還可以繼續再做個四年再做個八年但是在你還有半年的任期裡面思考一下我們金融業的今日跟未來可以嗎是,謝謝委員的期許我會在這個剩下的任期中去思考而且盡量能夠有一些政策能夠落實還有虛擬貨幣的事今天很多委員都提到了"},{"start":7741.469,"end":7753.739,"text":"網路的世界無遠弗屆你我的年齡不是在網路發達的時候的成長可是現在的年輕人都是在網路時代這樣子來成長的"},{"start":7754.844,"end":7755.625,"text":"二、國際財政委員會主席李宗盛議員"},{"start":7772.642,"end":7775.645,"text":"二、審查本院民進黨總預算案審查程序第三條文修正草"},{"start":7794.281,"end":7805.338,"text":"就這監理這個平常講這監理啊監理的適度放寬一點點也許那個產業他就有明天他有未來對人民是方便的是還不是"},{"start":7806.175,"end":7820.805,"text":"委員您的這番指導跟期許我們會引為我們將來努力的方向現在開始努力的方向我今天跟你們提了那個主席再給我30秒今天提了純網銀還有純網保這個跟實體要去思考一下"},{"start":7828.351,"end":7829.132,"text":"二、財政部委員會主席二、財政部委員會主席"},{"start":7847.224,"end":7861.33,"text":"好謝謝那剛剛我們本來有宣告的話那因為我們中委員這邊有提出要求所以我們等中委員質詢結束之後我們再休息接下來請莊嘉斌中委員上來質詢"},{"start":7871.797,"end":7882.247,"text":"謝謝趙偉主席、戰狼委員、先進會長的工作夥伴媒體女士先生那麼有請我們黃主委請黃主委上台備選謝謝委員長主委長剛剛有委員問到這個詐騙的問題我先問幾個"},{"start":7889.113,"end":7899.467,"text":"治安有沒有改善要看哪三個第一個是犯罪率第二個是報案率第三個是破案率治安有沒有改善你就要先看哪一個率"},{"start":7901.773,"end":7930.016,"text":"這個我不是犯罪專家,我不太...這個一嘗試嘛民眾就會自然有沒有改善我們要看哪些數字犯罪率有沒有上升對不對可是犯罪率是來自什麼民眾要有報案嘛所以警方就有所謂叫報案率嘛但是呢有沒有破案如果破案了那麼歹徒就不敢妄為所以犯案率就會下降,是不是這樣子是好,所以有人說一個笑話有人是在解決問題啊有人在解決提出問題的人"},{"start":7931.397,"end":7958.625,"text":"所以過去呢我曾經在地方擔任副首長每個月都主持治安會報我都會只要求不能只看什麼報案率因為如果你看報案率他們解決報案的人啊吃案嘛對不對結果呢破案率如果沒有提高民眾還是覺得治安不好嘛是不是這樣子所以我們要改善治安不只要看報案率報案率提高不見得是壞事要看破案率有沒有提高如果我們一味的要求"},{"start":7959.667,"end":7960.327,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":7980.229,"end":8003.112,"text":"我的觀點覺得我們的銀行防堵上有發揮效益但是民眾可能還是感覺到說好像詐騙很多嘛來我們來看一下金融詐騙我們的境內犯罪率如果我們積極破案就是臨櫃防堵嘛但是境外呢有沒有辦法防堵目前目前我們境內的大概都會透過臨櫃就攔下來了對不對所以目前的詐騙是不是大部分是境外犯罪"},{"start":8004.69,"end":8008.513,"text":"上海銀行14000個客戶各自外洩,有查出來是誰做的嗎?路徑找出來了嗎?"},{"start":8032.526,"end":8046.981,"text":"報告委員他們其實內部做了很詳盡的查核啦那目前他們還透過第三方所以其實透過第三方好來主委是這樣齁我上週才對宮古航空要求啊"},{"start":8048.443,"end":8065.722,"text":"要去加強對這些資安敏感職務人員的訓練和考核根據金融庫公司及銀行業內部控制及集合制度的實施辦法第38條之一有沒有有只要是銀行業不管你是不是公股、行庫你都要設置專職人員而且要奏訊是不是有沒有"},{"start":8068.304,"end":8094.711,"text":"請你比照我對財政部要求公務航空的做法你可不可以要求國營本國銀行統整出敏感職務哪些是跟治安敏感職務而且加強跟我們治安審查跟教育可不可以這個我們可以朝這個方向去努力所以你承諾要做這個事情因為公務航空已經答應了但是敏感職位可能是依不同銀行而有差別但是你們要去統整啊提報啊來審查好不好可以嗎"},{"start":8096.24,"end":8097.94,"text":"一指戶App App倒雙,誰該負責?"},{"start":8122.236,"end":8126.46,"text":"金管會還是衛福部還是我們的抒發部"},{"start":8128.635,"end":8153.587,"text":"這個後來了解各自部份應該屬於衛福部這邊在是在處理那金管會有沒有責任有沒有採取行動我們財經公司有跟跟大光公司要求要求他去確認他委外當初是因為委外的關係而產生各自的外洩所以要聯合各部會不是推給別人就是你可以做的就做對不對有都在同時在做的那伊子會有沒有釐清各自外洩的來源跟途徑呢應該有好"},{"start":8156.277,"end":8158.6,"text":"其實在我們國家對於關鍵基礎設施的保護從設施部分有這個法律"},{"start":8166.687,"end":8187.385,"text":"那如果這個設施要保護包括什麼?知通系統對不對?那用這個案子來往下看其實行政院除了對於硬體之外他對於人員的審查也很重要他有規定行政院要求所有政府採購對於大陸的廠牌的知通安全系統之外機關要去要求執行的團隊不可以有中國籍的人士是不是這樣?"},{"start":8188.286,"end":8196.856,"text":"有沒有看到行政院這個函這是要求公務採購的部分嗎政府採購的部分嗎那你可不可以要求本國銀行也筆照辦理"},{"start":8198.9,"end":8202.282,"text":"主委,可不可以要求考慮?這個局長有沒有什麼想法?"},{"start":8223.049,"end":8238.701,"text":"報告委員確實是那個公營的部分確實是比較辦理那至於其他本國銀行的部分本國銀行的部分的話金融網絡是聯通的對我們會再研議因為之前是要我們要往這個方向去要求"},{"start":8239.722,"end":8244.904,"text":"其他非公股銀行使用大陸廠牌資訊產品的形狀,其他非公股銀行使用大陸廠牌資訊產品的形狀,"},{"start":8263.053,"end":8272.749,"text":"第三方負責損害賠償責任根據我們銀行公會會員銀行以及第三方服務提供者的合作自律規範第六條第九項第三方有負責損害賠償"},{"start":8275.475,"end":8297.545,"text":"是不是這樣?同不同意?所以第三方也跟銀行一樣,我們往下看希望你們看一看中國的軟硬體在韓國造成了這些民間各自外洩華為也在台灣有類似的情況,所以往下看所以希望未來對這些TSP的業者也比照我們的"},{"start":8298.425,"end":8324.353,"text":"政府採購一項不只政府要落實也請TSP業者參考我們工程會第8條第24款可以嗎?這個就我剛剛跟您報告比方說非公股我們先盤點這些TSP業者有沒有使用好也一樣第一步先掏出去好不好好謝謝那我們往下看謝謝那另外呢我要再關心綠色行動3.0這個3.0的報告當中你們核心策略要接入碳排的資訊投融資去推動整體產業的減碳是不是這樣子?"},{"start":8327.034,"end":8351.568,"text":"銀行官有在上座嗎?這是其中之一好,那我們來看一下銀行在建商端的土建籠還有消費端購買綠建築的房屋貸款都有給予比較優惠的一個條件嗎?有沒有?這個在銀行公會授信審查准第20條好像有類似對這種規定那實質看法的成效可不可以告訴我本國銀行在民建綠建築的融資推廣成效如何?核電多少件?"},{"start":8352.339,"end":8370.374,"text":"我們調查之後跟您報告好你們還沒有做調查來我告訴你這是我從內政部得到的資料在2022跟2023比較我們所有的公建、商辦、住宅、合發建造數量這麼多那麼綠住宅有這些大概比例民間的綠建築比例偏低"},{"start":8371.55,"end":8387.285,"text":"即是說我們國家在推但是民間的綠建築通過的2%到3.2%好,如果我們把公建跟商販拿掉只看純住宅往下看純住宅稍微好一點但是住宅的綠建築比例也是不高"},{"start":8388.186,"end":8414.455,"text":"所以我們來看一下到底我們金管會提供的這個綠色行動有沒有幫助市場上的住宅消費者或建商願意來興辦綠建築您覺得有沒有實際上的推動的效果我認為是有但是可能不如您的期待沒有還沒調查出來可能有沒有我的符合還不知道我們來看一下其實我去調查的結果非督跟案通常不會選擇綠建築為什麼"},{"start":8416.718,"end":8439.87,"text":"因為我們注意到在內政部公布的資料當中如果你是都更案他就有綠建築的容積率獎勵那因為容積率獎勵之後他的利潤大於綠建築增加的成本所以幾乎我們看到的銀件內政部的資料通通集中在什麼都更案他們才會去做綠建築但是如果非都更案的話沒有"},{"start":8440.731,"end":8465.723,"text":"所以我也去注意到你回去查一查你們本國銀行去推動的綠建築的融資有沒有非督更案回去再來查一查跟我報告所以我認為我查的是沒有啦所以問題在哪裡今天綠建築的推動屬於融資獎勵的還有有效但是如果是屬於融資優惠的你們現在提出的好像沒有讓建商改變他的想法我們往下看"},{"start":8466.423,"end":8481.526,"text":"因為呢我們目前的都更案呢大部分的建商是因為隆基獎勵他選擇了綠建築不是融資的優惠因為我們目前聽說融資優惠呢小於綠建築增加的營建成本所以建商沒有意願所以我可以做這麼一個"},{"start":8482.628,"end":8506.353,"text":"先做這樣的定論目前的綠色建築行動方案的融資優惠其實吸引不了現章去做綠建築那你再回去看看有沒有什麼資料可以反證我的話那我接下來結論就出來了根據我們銀集綠建築的案例內政部研究所它大概銀集的綠建築每平方公尺要增加600到900那樓地盤面積如果是以13000米來講的話營業成本要增加780萬那我舉這個例子"},{"start":8510.976,"end":8531.507,"text":"事實上目前我們建籠動波的方式他土籠放款的金額要達到讓建商覺得我來做綠建築你的土建籠要調降0.8%而反而非都更的建案呢他所減少土建籠的利息支出小於他去做綠建築得到的獎勵簡單講結論來了往下看"},{"start":8535.274,"end":8544.062,"text":"是不是?金管會可不可以你去具體方案來積極地推廣立建築?包含對你們目前的融資投融資的獎勵去調查一下可以嗎?"},{"start":8545.151,"end":8550.874,"text":"請金管會統整出民管職務加強資安審查及教育國營及所屬的合作的欠商和保險公司執行團隊成員只要是非本國籍或同時擁有其他國籍的資通訊產品都應該加強資安及背景審查"},{"start":8568.585,"end":8596.642,"text":"因為有其他國籍不要讓其他國籍我沒有禁止我要你們去加強的去進行瞭解跟審查就是不要歧視我們沒有歧視只要求你去掌握可以嗎我們就是用事實為基礎去瞭解最後金管會要求開放銀行的TSP業者的資通的通訊軟體硬體的服務也應該要要求他的執行團隊是不是是中國籍人士而且不得使用來自中國的資通產品"},{"start":8597.362,"end":8612.591,"text":"這就跟您報告,我們先瞭解他的產品跟他的人的背景好,那請在多久內提出來我們分委員會這樣可能時間長一點,三個月可以嗎好,同意,那就請召委這邊來要求,謝謝謝謝委員,謝謝主委,請召委好,謝謝鍾委員,我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9063.616,"end":9065.077,"text":"謝謝主席,請黃天牧主委請黃主委上台備選"},{"start":9089.716,"end":9118.103,"text":"是委員長主委好現在這個Open Banking開放銀行的第三階段那今天讓大家知道說自律規範即將要年底前核備可是大家質疑就是說第三階段其實最重要的就是客戶的資金交易的服務那這個部分目前的自律規範是靠自律嗎那這個第三方的業者TSP未來是誰來監管這個部分目前有一個確定的方向嗎"},{"start":9119.629,"end":9131.534,"text":"從以往到現在,包括任何的委外,銀行如果可以拿一個TSB業者服務,銀行就是要對這個TSB業者的行為去做負責。我們是督導銀行,銀行要對我們負責。"},{"start":9132.881,"end":9156.757,"text":"所以因為現在詐騙非常的猖獗那尤其是在第三階段的時候涉及到這個金融交易的資料等等這些訊息的時候大家要擔心的就是如果銀行的自律發生了問題或者是TSP有問題就像現在很多的詐騙其實都是一個內部內神通外鬼互相的串聯然後導致各自外泄的狀況所以同時我們也發現"},{"start":9159.099,"end":9176.475,"text":"目前TSP業者所使用的open banking的代登錄的機制就是都用原網銀的驗證也就是說這個TSP的業者他可以取得客戶登錄的第三方驗證的所有資料而這個資料就是登錄銀行最重要的帳號跟密碼"},{"start":9178.397,"end":9192.177,"text":"就在這種情況之下如果只靠自律只靠業者跟銀行之間的規範自己之間的彼此的自律所造成的資安漏洞、客戶資料的外洩等等這個到底要誰來負責?"},{"start":9193.559,"end":9197.104,"text":"財經公司會訂定技術跟資安標準,尤其第三階段牽涉到交易面,資安標準會更高,包括幾位前面的委員對這部分有交代,我們會再去檢討。」"},{"start":9212.034,"end":9221.639,"text":"對,因為其實過去也同樣的包括IMB的事件包括這些事件大家一旦發生問題的時候一定都會回頭來問主管機關是誰誰要負責而這個時候如果我們事先就把這個球都踢給銀行說他們來自律他們自己負責事後我們都說我們沒有相關的監管或是沒有相關的這個配套出來的時候問題一旦發生其實"},{"start":9235.645,"end":9254.08,"text":"政府還是要承擔這個責任所以目前的TSP業者雖然他們是新創但是呢對於未來這些資安金融等級的安控作業他們有沒有辦法做到滴水不漏避免資安的漏洞擱置的外洩這個是對現在所有的客戶使用者來講最在意的事情"},{"start":9254.72,"end":9282.735,"text":"當然隨著金融的科技化能夠有這樣子的一個Open Banking是大家期待的一個方向可是同時如何來避免這些資料外洩同時有很多的代登錄的機制曾經也被這個玉山銀行偵測到說來源的IP是在國外那如果今天這個ISP的業者他的IP是涉及到中國或是間接中資那這樣的狀況可不可以申請Open Banking"},{"start":9283.967,"end":9295.478,"text":"總括來說您關心的事情非常重要包括TSP本身的資安水準銀行本身的資安水準、消費者保護這個都會在我們的規範中一併去考慮跟處理"},{"start":9297.185,"end":9317.245,"text":"所以剛剛我問到的啊如果說這個TSP的業者他跟中資是有關係的而今天我們的客戶臺灣的銀行這些資料有可能包括剛剛所說的帳號密碼他可能藉此而外流到TSP業者那你公告業者的自律是遠遠不夠包括國安包括其他層面的問題才是今天我們也要考量的"},{"start":9317.805,"end":9334.853,"text":"所以現在問的就是說如果這TSP的業者後面有中資有中國的IP等等的這些狀況到底能不能借接能不能適用我們的Open Banking您垂詢的地方當然是我們的顧慮我們一定會在規範中或是審查中去做處理"},{"start":9335.473,"end":9357.717,"text":"所以你沒有回答我們的問題嘛因為包括現在的蝦皮過去大家也質疑說他背後就是種子抖音的問題等等能不能申請借接呢能不能來做Open Banking呢因為依照我們的各資法相關的規定如果民眾每天登錄業者的APP都顯示登錄成功但是呢還會有一個是非台灣地區登錄的警告"},{"start":9358.177,"end":9358.898,"text":"二、中央政府總預算案擬具"},{"start":9388.177,"end":9388.437,"text":"財政委員會財政部長"},{"start":9406.341,"end":9426.532,"text":"前面可能要到明年上半年但是就是說剛剛所質疑的包括說中資或者是有涉及到國家利益、國安的問題然後主管機關如果沒有辦法去監管沒有辦法去了解的時候這東西有沒有辦法各自傳輸到其他的國家那被儲存到哪裡等等這些我們有沒有一個監管的機制未來會不會知道"},{"start":9427.352,"end":9430.294,"text":"有否符合委員這樣的期待?如果沒有符合,我們會去修正。」"},{"start":9444.884,"end":9474.028,"text":"就是說後面的配套剛剛所質疑的這些都必須要有能夠讓金管會隨時能夠掌握說到底這些TSP業者有沒有外流到中國後面有沒有中資或者是說這個資料被下載之後它是不是確實有治安的規範不會再被轉移到其他人的手上反而造成各自外洩的疑慮跟風險這部分一定要有明確的規範跟保證也要有配套這個大家才能夠放心這個金管會是可以做到的嗎"},{"start":9474.668,"end":9491.024,"text":"我們一定會準備好才上路不會為了要上路而上路另外關於純網保過去今晚會一直告訴我們說麻雀飛牢、純網保很快就會有等等我想今天也很多人在關心說了這麼久只有到現在卻是一場空"},{"start":9493.246,"end":9510.847,"text":"最後完全沒有任何一家純網保可以上路那現在金管會又說明年要捲土重來保險局12月又要評估請問在原本這麼嚴格的一個條件狀況之下未來會進一步的放寬嗎那如果沒有放寬又如何能夠保證明年會有純網保呢"},{"start":9512.401,"end":9537.521,"text":"其實原來我不認為那是嚴格那本來就是大家對純網銀的期待覺得希望它有一個有一個可以運行的商業模式我們只是確定純網保也有一個可以運行的商業模式我不覺得那是一定是嚴的那如果是這樣為什麼沒有任何一家公司願意來做或是通過我們金管會來審查那是因為它送來的資料沒辦法證明它是可被執行的模式"},{"start":9538.663,"end":9553.828,"text":"也就是說你認為他是會虧損是不是?沒有獲利的空間嗎?什麼叫做無法證明他是可負責?他的創新跟異業合作的創新模式沒有辦法得到審查委員認同這樣一個模式是可以將來可以營運可以獲利的"},{"start":9555.017,"end":9573.269,"text":"所以你就是認為他不會獲利嗎那我們的純網銀也是虧損連連啊虧損連連到現在你當初認為他會獲利嗎到現在還不是在虧損那你還不是讓他過純網保對於民眾來講有更大的需求現在很多的民眾網路世代他們可能透過網路去保"},{"start":9574.59,"end":9585.44,"text":"純網保需求上有必要性去做比較﹑去做更多的配套為什麼這個部分反而目前沒有看到任何一家願意來做"},{"start":9587.794,"end":9600.659,"text":"在國際上我們有比較出來數位化或保險科技在其他國家其實都已經是非常的普遍但是在台灣目前是一家都沒有那這種狀況其實是今晚會的條件過於嚴苛還是說台灣的市場的問題到底問題出在哪裡"},{"start":9606.181,"end":9632.521,"text":"報告委員這幾年我們在網路投保上已經有大幅的開放那今年10月也開放保險公司做異業的合作跟電子商務的開放那這部分可以保證說明年會有純網保嗎這個是讓現有的業者能夠在網路上有更多的商業的機會所以明年會有嗎純網保是要明年1月底會跟各位報告我們評估的結果"},{"start":9633.686,"end":9648.085,"text":"最後因為我上次沒有問到就是F17的問題我們認為說金管會對受險業是一再的通融F17不斷的拖延2019年的時候告訴我們說考量國情2025年上路到2022又說考量國情2026年上路"},{"start":9651.91,"end":9665.968,"text":"當十月的時候﹐時無前例的容許受選業來做資產重分類、美化賬目到2023年最近﹐最新的十二月的、十一月的報告告訴我們說﹐要有十五年的過渡期﹐讓受選業傳口氣"},{"start":9668.411,"end":9695.442,"text":"所以整個這個一拖再拖台灣接軌RF17在國際上已經是後段班讓這些受險公司不斷的延長壽命他們其實在延長壽命的過程中卻在逃避他們該有的責任包括現金徵資所以這個比較下來台灣是全世界目前做完接軌RF17的要到2041年請問2041年主委你都幾歲了"},{"start":9697.506,"end":9719.168,"text":"這是我的個資吧這不是個資啊 對不對2041年那是距離現在也將近快要20年的時間欸是非常晚的時間欸那時候會發生什麼事情我們都不知道但我們IF17竟然要到2041年才能完全接軌你不覺得這20年真的太長了嗎"},{"start":9719.969,"end":9732.414,"text":"報告委員每一國家接軌都是有一些寬限期像歐盟接軌那個清查能力二也是16年但是人家很早就開始接軌啊臺灣是2026年才開始接軌還要再給他們15年的過渡期欸連韓國從今年1月1號開始接軌到現在10年過渡期最晚也是2033年我們還比人家再晚了8年欸"},{"start":9744.838,"end":9754.144,"text":"主要是因為我們民國90年代以前賣了很多六以上的高利率保單都是長年期終身的其實我們這樣做也是保障我們保護的權益"},{"start":9755.322,"end":9780.074,"text":"所以你們是要等他們消化完畢才要來讓他們去面對現在現今增資的這個需求嗎?不完全是消化完畢而是我們給配套措施給寬限期讓他逐年慢慢慢慢去調整好那最後再兩個小問題一個是新展並花期的案件消費糾紛不斷的頻傳客戶投訴越來越多但是我們沒有看到金管會有任何的作為很多的這些"},{"start":9780.814,"end":9803.97,"text":"全會的權益受到影響還有這個卡戶的權益也是一樣另外這個接口投信的胡亦佳自行宣布回任董事完全在挑戰我們的金管會但是金管會對接口可是一再的寬容罰環都非常的低接口投信違反結構信託法也只開罰120萬現在還公然挑戰金管會金管會的作為在哪裡"},{"start":9804.98,"end":9834.186,"text":"接口投信目前的瞭解他要先如果要申請回認必須先向投信投顧公會去申請那可以自行宣布嗎自行宣布回認董事是什麼意思啊金管會沒有同意之前自行宣布這是什麼意思我想他怎麼表達我想金管會到底在怕接口什麼啊就是說金管會你現在沒有任何的一個罰環或是他這樣混淆視聽他現在是不是接口的董事是不是"},{"start":9835.441,"end":9858.576,"text":"目前不是金管會．金管會也沒有同意嗎?金管會沒有同意之前．他就不能擔任接口投信的董事,對不對?是的對啊,那他為什麼可以自行宣布回認呢?那大家這樣是不是在混淆視聽．影響市場的信心?讓大家認為說他是接口投信的董事他可以這樣子招搖撞騙嗎?我們在記者會也有說明一切．以金管會最後的同意為主高偉仁,是不是?"},{"start":9858.996,"end":9886.759,"text":"所以我們還是希望金管會能夠拿出相關的法則來去針對接口投信還有像新展銀行類似這樣子對於消費者對於這些存戶對於金融市場都會產生影響那如果金管會都不處理會讓人家覺得說像這些為所欲為的金融機構招搖撞騙自己說自己是投信董事都還可以這個逃過我們相關制裁我覺得這樣子沒有辦法去取信社會大眾"},{"start":9888.321,"end":9888.761,"text":"陳嘉華、陳偉元、黃竺偉"},{"start":9911.256,"end":9932.783,"text":"主委,這次我們金管會有去COP28嗎?沒有去。那這兩天就是COP28大會他們有提出就是未來因應這個氣候變遷能夠讓地球溫度能夠限制不要超過1.5度的上升"},{"start":9933.73,"end":9958.297,"text":"其中一個提出新興增加清潔能源投資的融資機制請問今晚會針對這個部分﹐我們已經有相關的機制在了嗎?其實我們對六大核心戰略產業中﹐包括替代能源方面都是作為鼓勵的"},{"start":9959.045,"end":9986.097,"text":"這是屬於銀行局跟保險局都有相關業務嗎?對,其實這個在我們的綠色金融方案中其實都有鼓勵銀行業、保險業在投融資上去做義和鼓勵做低碳的融資跟投資好,那我請問一下我們在之前有提過一個就是綠色能源的投資方案裡面有一個SRF,我不知道我們現在"},{"start":9987.484,"end":9997.517,"text":"在融資方案裡面有把這個納進來嗎?我不太確定,對不起,SRF可能我孤陋寡聞不太曉得,國委員多知道"},{"start":9998.117,"end":10024.626,"text":"好那這個部分因為他不是屬於綠色能源他就是燒塑膠就是把那個我們的廢棄物裡面的塑膠再把它收集起來然後因為他有熱脂所以可以發電委員如果覺得這個是有節能或是減碳的效果您提供資料給我們我們看是不是因為我們的永續指標這一次被德國的一個團體我們評定又退步了所以我是覺得我們在"},{"start":10025.206,"end":10046.168,"text":"二、清潔能源的融資機制方面,我們真正能夠有減碳跟ESG跟配合融資這個部分能夠加強。也希望金管會能更了解,不要投資非真正的綠色能源。"},{"start":10047.247,"end":10049.029,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":10069.86,"end":10071.461,"text":"資訊就是說當年就是東網案有這個協助做一個共犯的人姓陳"},{"start":10079.96,"end":10099.871,"text":"那現在還可以到海外當經理但是吹哨者卻卻這個這個部分都被阻止了就是說因為有希望到海外當這個經理的這種機會都被遏止那不知道金管會對於這樣的情形有沒有什麼想法呢"},{"start":10101.363,"end":10123.039,"text":"很感謝委員對張瑩這個案子一直給我們很多指導那這個部分的情節我是不清楚如果委員願意的話可不可以會後提供資料我們請銀行提出說明好我也希望銀行局或者是相關單位包括張瑩能夠給一個明確的說明那可以給本席一個書面報告嗎"},{"start":10125.123,"end":10126.864,"text":"請委員提供您看到的個案資料"},{"start":10154.142,"end":10154.843,"text":"三條文修正審查程序第三條文修正草"},{"start":10173.451,"end":10191.381,"text":"憎意跟輔導精進作為其中有這五項,太陽,為師的太陽主委你看一下我們金管會針對這些太陽相關的警示、限制或相關作為我們如何來因應呢?"},{"start":10196.124,"end":10219.801,"text":"我的了解在交易所審查過程中已經就外界對這個公司的一些質疑有去做一些審查但是並不是說上市之後就一切都不需要去遵循我們還是會繼續去注意尤其請交易所注意這家公司您所提到的這些所謂的為師的太陽有沒有存在有存在我想交易所跟政局局都會做同步依法去處理"},{"start":10220.472,"end":10249.031,"text":"好那這五點這五點如果涉及我們金管會監理的業務相關的我們也可以進行這個監理的提出相關的這個報告或者是相關公司我們金管會不是個案的這個監理我們應該全面性的有比較這個全面性的一個制度面的監理我們怎麼來建立呢"},{"start":10250.131,"end":10274.656,"text":"因為任何一個上市位公司跟交易所都是有契約關係所以交易所已經知道委員的關心在審查中也有注意那您垂詢的這些所謂的資安或公司治理的那個消費者保護的事情交易所會定期去了解這家公司執行的情況如果有違失交易所會處理必要的時候需要牽涉到金管會政局局會去做處理"},{"start":10275.831,"end":10290.576,"text":"好,我們也希望不要再有類似的這個案例再發生啦畢竟我們覺得這個是很可惜本來是一個很好的健身產業因為這樣的爭議卻讓大家卻步了解好,謝謝謝謝委員指導好,謝謝陳教法委員接下來我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在接下來我們請林楚英委員上台質詢"},{"start":10309.193,"end":10312.168,"text":"主席有請黃天牧黃主委請黃主委上台備選"},{"start":10314.193,"end":10341.19,"text":"謝謝委員長主委好我想這個對於台股最近的表現我相信不只是委員們在意我知道像今天早上媒體們也都非常的關注因為這對於台灣的整體經濟面來講我相信這一定是有激勵的作用那麼本席找到一個是在2023年8月18號的時候當時歐盟就曾經有一個香港報告就提到這個所謂的一國兩制的瓦解那麼"},{"start":10341.87,"end":10368.394,"text":"外資撤退中資那麼這個整體來說他們也就看壞了這個整體香港的發展嗎那麼以台灣的現在股市的狀況我先來舉一下是前幾天當時我們第一次台股正式超越港股的時候在野黨就在那邊質疑說這個會不會是有所謂的政治操作甚至於包括連國安基金的設立都被質疑了"},{"start":10369.094,"end":10384.323,"text":"我相信這個對於臺股30年終於超越香港這樣的一個過程當中其實很多人都是認為這代表著臺灣不論是經過疫情或者是一連串的這樣的打擊之後我們還是屹立不搖"},{"start":10385.824,"end":10412.702,"text":"主委可以聊一下你怎麼來看歐盟的這一份報告那麼確實外資是不是象徵著一個所謂春江水奶鴨鮮汁的這樣的一個角色那麼面對這近8年來臺股往上上漲了87%而港股卻是下跌27%那麼這其中是不是也某種程度可以看得出來那麼國際尤其是外資這些重大的投資者對於臺灣經濟的一個表態"},{"start":10415.384,"end":10415.52,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第10屆第8會期財政委員會"},{"start":10417.302,"end":10444.698,"text":"資本市場是一個非常國際化的一個機制所以這個資本市場是不是開放自由上市會公司是不是有這個好的表現都是包括公司治理永續都是外資評估要不要投資參與的因素之一那我覺得台股這麼多年來在大家的有些委員的指導努力跟我們的努力之下、燕業者努力之下其實是有長途的進步尤其我們的"},{"start":10446.059,"end":10475.639,"text":"三十年前跟三十年後臺股的資本市場的產業結構有很大的不同現在半導體電子占一半以上三十年前是傳統產業跟金融產業這些都是我們今天之所以能夠在國際資本市場上有一席之地的重要原因但是有的地區有的國家它因為有一些不同的因素的影響讓大家對這個地區或國家有些不同的想法我想我就不多評論但是我想臺股的成功不是成功臺股的發展是有它的因素的"},{"start":10476.319,"end":10495.833,"text":"所以其實本席會問這個問題主要的是說當這個台灣的台股超越港股那麼我相信許多的不論是投資人又或者是一些財經專家都一路看好的情況底下卻認為說這是民進黨的政府在搞選舉的手段包括連國安基金的設置是不是有國安基金進場護盤都被質疑那麼"},{"start":10498.115,"end":10516.116,"text":"我們都知道其實有關於金融監理最重要的其實就是金管會金管會對於我們在這個質詢台上包括有沒有一些所謂的必須要關注的就是交易其實金管會、政期局其實包括都是在監理的過程當中那麼"},{"start":10517.918,"end":10529.489,"text":"經濟部或是國發會其實都是有發出新聞稿來講說這個過程當中就是台灣的經濟越來越好那麼經管會有看到真的有所謂的不法的操作嗎?"},{"start":10531.055,"end":10552.018,"text":"我在這個場合也接受到很多委員的槌尋包括有沒有什麼選舉行情我都說其實金管會是非常專業、公平、透明的我們不做任何的非金融經濟以外的事情我們就是維護這個市場的穩定發展、透明專業讓大家覺得這個市場的投資是有信心的"},{"start":10553.301,"end":10568.433,"text":"因為我覺得這樣的一個質詢也許很多人會覺得說這是不是在撐時間但是我認為像這樣的所謂台灣的股市表現得好甚至於連財經專家都肯定的時候"},{"start":10568.993,"end":10590.798,"text":"但是卻出現這種說為了選舉做多甚至於連國安基金的設置都說是因為有國安基金進場護盤我認為其實金管會必須就是像我剛剛必須要對您提出這樣的質疑或是要求您回答問題的原因在於我們不能說我們自己表現得好然後反而還被在野黨看衰這對於國際怎麼看台灣"},{"start":10593.599,"end":10606.352,"text":"好,大家就覺得說怎麼我們表現得好煩是在野黨不斷地在唱衰當外資都看好台灣然後看壞香港的發展的時候結果是我們的在野黨在覺得說我們做得不好當然我不會要求金管會必須要像經濟部或者是國發會一樣要去特別發一個新聞稿來做澄清但是至少"},{"start":10612.478,"end":10624.913,"text":"在主委的回覆當中是可以確定沒有所謂的不法操縱而包括像國安基金的設置國安基金的進場都是有其必要性嗎他不是為了選舉做多是吧"},{"start":10626.206,"end":10646.382,"text":"我覺得過去沒有現在也沒有好那麼接下來當然就回到我們今天的這個主題的報告我想對於這個開放銀行的部分是主委過去一路以來都支持這樣的一個方向那我們從2019年公開資訊資料的查詢到2021年是給消費者有機會可以來查詢"},{"start":10647.122,"end":10661.334,"text":"那麼接下來多家銀行的整合的部分會是下一步跟下一個階段嗎?因為我們現在第二階段的部分本席看到的是公營行庫8家百分之百都參與了但民營的部分其實只有7家如果加進郵局的話這樣算是16家那麼目前為止"},{"start":10665.657,"end":10676.528,"text":"民營銀行的參與率不高甚至於我必須說是偏低的只有28%主委這是遇到一個什麼樣的情況讓民營銀行覺得興趣缺缺是因為擔心太過開放影響競爭力嗎?"},{"start":10680.556,"end":10699.58,"text":"這也是今天很多人指導因為這個交易面資訊是非常敏感的包括對TSB業者的治安的要求還有很多人提到他的擴面的背景所以可能銀行業者覺得這個部分要信任一個TSB業者去做這種交易面的平臺也許他會有更高的要求跟標準"},{"start":10700.183,"end":10728.164,"text":"是所以這也會變成是當我們要走到開放銀行的第三階段的時候肯定會遇到很大的阻礙應該是這樣子因為站在他們的立場上他們也很怕接下來合作的這個所謂第三方的服務業者的平台會出現他們擔憂的狀況那這樣子會不會變成你要推到下一個部分的時候因為其實坦白說我在討論這個題目的時候我也問了我辦公室的助理們說如果"},{"start":10729.417,"end":10754.124,"text":"一個可以整合出開放銀行走到第三階段的利跟弊到底是在哪裡比如說其實我們現在很多的業者他們自己都有開發他們屬於他們自己的這個網路上面的查詢的平台比如說你只要有開戶你進入了相關的資料之後你可以看到你自己在這家銀行裡面包括這個金融集團裡面我可能是信用卡"},{"start":10754.684,"end":10758.167,"text":"第二條文修正審查程序第三條文修正草"},{"start":10764.983,"end":10787.871,"text":"彼此之間資訊共享那麼真正的癥結點是資安的問題還是擔心接下來有一種所謂客戶或者是所謂使用的消費者之間彼此不願意就是怕客人被搶走諸位你們在溝通的過程當中是什麼樣一個狀況這個是個局長可以說明一下"},{"start":10789.98,"end":10805.837,"text":"報告員其實都有啦除了資安的這個問題之外因為接下來是透過這個第三方去查詢整合甚至交易所以這個部分的話其實就傳統銀行而言他們這都是他們顧慮的"},{"start":10807.779,"end":10835.66,"text":"好 所以因為有這樣的顧慮我覺得也可以理解但是會不會就變成是說這就變成只能做半套我們大概就是只能停留在第二階段讓消費者做資訊的查核可是要進到第三階段的時候要多方整合比如說我今天真的進入吉保的依存者的這個部分我就可以看到其他銀行的部分的包括存款或者是狀況那可是就是"},{"start":10836.34,"end":10837.121,"text":"審查本院民進黨總預算案審查程序第三條"},{"start":10856.796,"end":10876.47,"text":"那這個部分恐怕也就不是主管機關你真的說你一定要邀請他進來那他很可能就是會一直停留在這個階段因為當然我們知道說可能也許這個會期我們大概今天是最後一次來討論這個問題那接下來也許就是下一屆或下一個會期但他會不會永遠就是卡在這裡而無解"},{"start":10878.231,"end":10907.137,"text":"那有沒有什麼更可能的溝通方式其實我希望主委或是銀行局能夠去注意這方面的問題其實我還是很感謝召委安排這樣一個報告其實讓我們聽到很多委員的關切除了資安已經有提到另外一個業者自己本身的誘因的問題我想至少我們先把資安的部分處理好那業者誘因部分我們再跟工會這邊再多了解他們的心態看看是不是有可能促成"},{"start":10907.637,"end":10925.543,"text":"好,因為對我們來講我們當然是完全的支持希望走到開放銀行這個部分但是呢,也不要說因為目前為止民營行戶所增加的不多那就變成是整個開放只開放半套那這確實是很可惜了解,謝謝委員的指導,謝謝好,謝謝林委員接下來我們請羅賓才羅委員上台質詢"},{"start":10939.386,"end":10965.656,"text":"主席各位出列習官員大家好主席可否請保險局局長主委先喝口水我們請保險局司局長上台這屆會期最後一次我們要審慎來思考一下究竟銀行證券保險金融界裡面大概這幾年"},{"start":10966.243,"end":10995.03,"text":"金融的情況有沒有上軌道現在目前大概有幾家的受險公司跟產險公司那從過去的20年到現在整個資產規模變化非常非常大那我們知道這個局長在這個位置很辛苦的這個經營所以也讓所有的業者可以說是大發財整個金融的整體去年"},{"start":10995.692,"end":11022.029,"text":"算一算應該算今年大概已經賺了七千五百多億了吧那局長你覺得他們這樣的一個表現是不是一個正常的發展那對未來的話因為你好像這個好像也快退休了什麼時候退休你可不可以集你一生的功力那趁這個幾次最後上台的機會也大家分享一下你多年來的經驗"},{"start":11024.526,"end":11044.353,"text":"報告委員我是明年退休那剛剛委員有提到那個7000多億的部分應該是指的是整個金融產業那我們的部分應該在今年產售險都有獲利但是獲利的程度應該還沒有那麼高"},{"start":11047.244,"end":11066.117,"text":"在產險的部分現在都已經損益兩平了嗎?因為去年和今年遭受很大的傷害今年到10月左右大概整個淨利有大概130億左右稅後淨利產險的部分嗎?自結的產險的部分那比較恢復了那請問產險有沒有還在虧損的?或者會倒閉的?"},{"start":11075.667,"end":11091.362,"text":"產險的部分以目前來講我們在6月底的時候還有一家那個RBC還沒有符合標準但是到目前為止都已經提升到200以上了產險的部分全部都符合法定標準這當然有20幾家嘛產險對"},{"start":11097.325,"end":11125.755,"text":"受險的部分從大概20年前到現在以前的規模很小現在整個的資產規模有多大那為什麼在這短短一、二十年會產生如此大的變化是政策的支持呢因為我們看到甚至買外國的國債、公債最多的其實就是受險公司一買就買好幾兆手上的數字大概是買了多少兆"},{"start":11127.817,"end":11147.34,"text":"跟我們報告,受險業的目前資產規模大概35兆左右。國外投資的部分大概22兆左右。大部分大概有九成多的都是在固定收益的有一價證券的部分。"},{"start":11148.081,"end":11176.519,"text":"大概都是以什麼計價?有九成左右是美元計價的九成以上的國外投資我看蠻集中的所以也要小心海外的投資過去曾經成招滑鐵盧有人投資俄羅斯有人投資以色列那對於這個授權公司未來海外投資的規範會不會做一個審核的標準"},{"start":11178.264,"end":11193.331,"text":"我們都有訂規範啦尤其是在這個整個風險控管的部分有要求受險業對於投資面要進行相關的這個那個管理啦好像也是有碰觸地雷的啊之前在2008年的時候對那時候也有一些投資虧損"},{"start":11207.096,"end":11209.817,"text":"二十一家的售險公司當中有沒有目前還是虧損的?"},{"start":11230.748,"end":11259.695,"text":"以目前來看的話是有虧損的比如說像我們後面有幾家那個RBC還沒有達到法定標準的公司三家?五家比較後端嗎?三家有三家喔?那對於這三家會不會倒啊?各位我報告針織好像都沒有針織欸有一些公司有針織有一些公司他在也出售了不動產"},{"start":11261.817,"end":11284.689,"text":"提升出租率,所以在提升RBC上,他們目前都在努力當中。三家?三家的部分就是宏泰、星光跟山商山商已經增資了吧?山商在上半年跟下半年都有增資會不會再出狀況?他們也在努力當中"},{"start":11288.519,"end":11308.766,"text":"是,我們就覺得這個授權公司啊,這個良幼不起啊,你看好的,可以好到非常好,賺了很多很多的錢,經營比較沒有上軌道了,居然還會出現虧損,這個不曉得是問題出在哪裡,是因為他的營業限制項目嗎?"},{"start":11311.402,"end":11335.37,"text":"我們大概沒有特別限制哪一家的營業項目有一些公司可能他投資上比較沒有表現那麼好有一些可能是業務上的影響主要投資方面沒有做好封控或者是投錯地方比如說投到俄羅斯就一戰爭就虧了50億、60億、70億到現在也還沒解"},{"start":11341.36,"end":11369.903,"text":"藏還是掛在那邊對好那我們希望說主管機關對這些受險公司要特別的注意因為畢竟是全民的投保的一個利益在這個地方不能讓保護受到災害到時候理賠沒有辦法理賠是委員我們會努力好謝謝這個局長施局長那請主委黃天牧黃主委"},{"start":11370.85,"end":11399.862,"text":"請黃主委上台備選去年這樣算一算表現金融整體的獲益超過7500億也大概是歷史的次高那面對這樣的一個情況這個應該都是養精蓄銳可以說是兵強馬大這時候更應該來要求所有的金融相關業者不要讓金融詐騙一再的發生吧"},{"start":11401.496,"end":11420.47,"text":"主委有沒有什麼方法除了主管機關的注意之外銀行也要做點事啊因為畢竟他們是第一線嘛其實我們很多配合打詐平台做的法規的調整銀行在第一線都有配合包括科技防詐都有在做可是還是有詐騙的情況"},{"start":11422.321,"end":11427.564,"text":"金融詐騙變成全國民眾覺得十大痛物之一大概是排名好像第一還第二大家覺得哇好像到處都是危險處處是危機可不可以拜託黃主委"},{"start":11449.713,"end":11459.339,"text":"想辦法看怎麼樣讓這一些危機化成轉機讓我們不要一看到這些詐騙都覺得人心惶惶"},{"start":11461.547,"end":11490.169,"text":"委員這個拜託我們承擔不起是我們應該要做的而且我們是同理心每一個人都有可能被詐騙所以其實我們在法規上包括配合洗房法包括我們自己對信用卡各方面我們都有在做當然我想做的也許不見得符合所有大家的期待我們會再不斷地再努力但是可以看出來我們幾乎每個月都有一些新的法規的調整新的制度的修正所以我們是在不斷地在精進自己的作為"},{"start":11491.069,"end":11494.945,"text":"因為現在人也有所以金融機構也有錢要怎麼樣來"},{"start":11496.38,"end":11523.237,"text":"把這個防詐的防護網把它安全的設立起來很重要我們最近還在公平待客中把那個打詐的績效放在公平待客的機制的評核裡面是對不起剛才打斷您的講話上一次居然財政部還在網路上變成他是詐騙集團使用的一個公家機關你知道這件事嗎抱歉我不太清楚"},{"start":11524.276,"end":11545.546,"text":"他就是說在這個網址上財政部有什麼什麼什麼後康的還是什麼的結果弄半天那個是假的金管會常被冒用說他的錢放到金管會被扣留啊金管會也被詐騙嗎對啊我看那個資訊中也說錢被金管會扣住你要找誰找誰也把我們的名字放進去了"},{"start":11545.779,"end":11572.892,"text":"那儘管會扣錢有沒有還人家錢啊?我們沒有扣錢啊沒有所以是假的是假的奇怪那為什麼有這些歹徒他敢在太歲爺上動土他要打聽一下啊黃天牧也不是塑膠啊也不是好惹的啊那有查出來是誰嗎?我們在我們紀有記這上都有查我們上都也公佈了一些資訊我們定期都有公佈資訊"},{"start":11574.585,"end":11601.439,"text":"我希望說是要快狠準把這個打詐防詐整個機制真的要充分的做好我們希望所有的民眾在臺灣在金融秩序方面大家是可以安心的錢放在銀行是可以放心的放在銀行裡面有定存還有升利息是可以領得到的是對銀行是有信心的好不好了解謝謝委員知道謝謝"},{"start":11604.451,"end":11610.554,"text":"我們今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢,現在進行討論事項及臨時提案之處理。"},{"start":11621.967,"end":11637.694,"text":"請議事人員宣讀今日審查中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案一案提案內容含臨時提案共一案我們宣讀完畢之後就進行協商現在請進行宣讀"},{"start":11639.096,"end":11664.017,"text":"民進黨黨團提案中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案對照現行條文除第一項第三款第一目行政院農業委員會修正為農業部第一項第五款第一目行政院原子能委員會修正為核能安全委員會第一項第八款第一目行政院環境保護署修正為環境部其餘同現行條文臨時提案第一案"},{"start":11664.838,"end":11675.214,"text":"金管會自2019年推動開放銀行Open Banking政策才鼓勵業者以自願自律方式分三階段實施2019年第一階段公開資訊查詢上線2020年"},{"start":11680.262,"end":11697.787,"text":"第二階段消費者資訊查詢上線並擬於2023年12月前和被第三階段交易面資訊之自律規範及資安標準進一步擴大實施第三階段服務查銀行工會制定之銀行與第三方服務提供者合作之自律規範"},{"start":11699.047,"end":11715.734,"text":"僅規定銀行在選擇第三方服務提供者﹐TSP業者應該要注意的原則﹐包括要確保TSP業者的資本額﹐有資安能力﹐個資風險管理﹐遵循洗錢防治法等法規﹐實應TSP業者非金融機構﹐其主管機關為經濟部﹐金管會並無管轄權﹐"},{"start":11718.715,"end":11746.79,"text":"故僅將查核責任規則於銀行,談未來開放銀行實施第三階段金融交易衍生金融消費爭議,恐不適用金融爭議解決機制。原要求金融監督管理委員會研議跨部會監管開放銀行第三方服務提供者,制定完整金融爭議解決機制,確保金融消費者權益,並於兩個月內提交書面報告。提案人林楚英審發會中嘉賓宣讀完畢。"},{"start":11749.363,"end":11765.975,"text":"好,那我們現在就先就法案的部分來協商這個法案就是其實這個民主進步黨黨團所提的法案其實就是針對這個我們預算審查程序裡面幾個部會我們這個已經行政院組織已經改組"},{"start":11767.176,"end":11793.429,"text":"一個是農委會改成農業部一個是原子能委員會改成核能安全委員會一個是環保署改成環境部我想這個應該我們就是相應的修正應該有沒有意見沒有意見沒有意見那我們我們就按照這個民進黨黨團的版本通過那接下來是林楚英委員的臨時提案這個部分請主委這邊表示意見"},{"start":11797.506,"end":11812.553,"text":"好那我們就照案通過好那我們協商完成請議事人員宣讀協商結論宣讀協商結論中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案照案通過臨時提案一項照案通過宣讀完畢好這個"},{"start":11817.968,"end":11832.377,"text":"本次會議作如下決議報告說明及詢答完畢委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會議週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定"},{"start":11835.582,"end":11859.19,"text":"案一案,全案審查完略,擬具審查報告提報院會說明,院會討論前不需交黨團協商,院會討論時由本席補充說明。」請問各位委員對以上決議有無異議?沒有,沒有異議我們就通過。另外本次會議議事錄授權由本席核定後確定,請問各位委員有無異議?"},{"start":11860.714,"end":11871.44,"text":"好沒有的話我們通過本次會議議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理散會"}]}},{"id":"148975","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148975","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720295e3147b0c644f1f692351fad24fff329c986728e607a0322e3a4a211d9ab1f3d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何志偉","委員發言時間":"12:55:21 - 12:58:05","影片長度":"00:02:44","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":164,"end_time":"2023-12-11T12:58:05+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T12:55:21+08:00","features":[],"type":"Clip"},{"id":"148934","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148934","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029c325a7a38fa4c4e792351fad24fff329c986728e607a0322c90d5052a8f6ed9e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李德維","委員發言時間":"09:06:01 - 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Banking）政策之回顧與展望（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【12月11日及13日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-20"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":631,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:33:06+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:22:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":767,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時22分）謝謝主席，主席，有請黃天牧主委。"],["主席：請黃主委上臺備詢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["林委員楚茵：主委好。對於臺股最近的表現，我相信不只是委員們在意，我知道今天早上媒體們也都非常的關注，因為對於臺灣的整體經濟面來講，我相信這一定具有激勵的作用。本席找到一則在2023年8月18號時的報導，當時歐盟就曾經有一份香港報告提到：一國兩制瓦解，企業外資退中資進，整體來說他們也就看壞了整體香港的發展嘛。以臺灣現在股市的狀況來說，前幾天臺股第一次正式超越港股的時候，在野黨就在那邊質疑說這個會不會是有所謂的政治操作，甚至於包括連國安基金的設立都被質疑了。我相信對於臺股30年終於超越港股的這樣一個過程，其實很多人都認為這代表著臺灣在經過疫情或者一連串的打擊之後，我們還是屹立不搖。主委，可不可以聊一下，你怎麼來看歐盟的這一份報告？確實外資是不是象徵著一個所謂春江水暖鴨先知的角色？面對近8年來臺股往上上漲了87%，而港股卻是下跌27%，這其中是不是在某種程度上也可以看得出來國際，尤其是外資這些重大的投資者對於臺灣經濟的一個表態？"],["黃主任委員天牧：資本市場是一個非常國際化的機制，所以這個資本市場是不是開放、自由，上市櫃公司是不是有好的表現，包括公司治理、永續等等，都是外資評估要不要投資參與的因素之一。我覺得臺股這麼多年來在大家，尤其是委員的指導跟我們的努力及業者的努力之下，其實是有長足的進步，尤其我們的股市，30年前跟30年後臺股的資本市場的產業結構有很大的不同，現在是半導體、電子占一半以上，30年前是傳統產業跟金融產業，這些都是我們今天之所以能夠在國際資本市場上有一席之地的重要原因。但是有的地區、有的國家因為受到一些不同因素的影響，讓大家對這個地區或國家有些不同的想法，我想我就不做評論，但是我想臺股的成功，不是成功，應該是臺股的發展，是有它的因素的。"],["林委員楚茵：好，其實本席會問這個問題主要是說，當臺灣的臺股超越港股，我相信在許多，不論是投資人或者一些財經專家都一路看好的情況底下，卻認為這是民進黨政府在搞選舉的手段，包括連國安基金的設置、是不是有國安基金進場護盤等都被質疑。我們都知道其實有關於金融監理最重要的就是金管會，金管會對於我們在這個質詢臺上，包括有沒有一些所謂的必須要關注的交易，其實都是在金管會證期局的監理過程當中。經濟部或是國發會其實也都有發出新聞稿澄清，這個過程就是臺灣的經濟越來越好，金管會有看到真的有所謂不法的操作嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我在這個場合也接受到很多委員的垂詢，包括有沒有什麼選舉行情，我都說其實金管會是非常專業、公平、透明的，我們不做任何非金融經濟以外的事情，我們就是維護這個市場的穩定發展、透明、專業，讓大家覺得對這個市場的投資是有信心的。"],["林委員楚茵：好，對於這樣一個質詢，也許很多人會覺得說這樣是不是在撐時間，但是我認為像這樣所謂臺灣的股市表現得好，甚至於連財經專家都肯定的時候，但是卻出現這種說法，說這是為了選舉做多啦，甚至連國安基金的設置都說是因為有國安基金進場護盤，我認為其實金管會必須，就像我剛剛必須要對您提出這樣的質疑或是要求你回答問題的原因在於，我們不能說我們自己表現得好，然後反而還被在野黨看衰，這讓國際怎麼看臺灣？大家會覺得怎麼我們表現得好，反而是在野黨不斷的在唱衰，當外資都看好臺灣，然後看壞香港的發展的時候，結果是我們的在野黨覺得我們做得不好。當然我不會要求金管會必須要像經濟部或者是國發會一樣，要特別發一個新聞稿來做澄清，但是至少在主委的回復當中是可以確定沒有所謂的不法操縱，包括像國安基金的設置、國安基金的進場都是有其必要性嘛，不是為了選舉做多，是吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我覺得過去沒有，現在也沒有。"],["林委員楚茵：好。接下來就回到我們今天這個主題的報告，對於開放銀行的部分，我想主委從過去一路以來都是支持這樣的方向，我們從2019年公開資料查詢，到2021年是給消費者有機會可以查詢，接下來多家銀行的整合部分會是下一步跟下一個階段嗎？因為現在第二階段的部分，本席看到的是公營行庫8家百分之百都參與了，但民營的部分其實只有7家，如果加進郵局的話，算是16家。到目前為止，民營銀行的參與率不高，甚至於我必須說是偏低的，只有28%。主委，這是遇到了什麼樣的情況讓民營銀行覺得興趣缺缺？是因為擔心太過開放而影響競爭力嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這也是今天很多委員指導的，因為交易面資訊是非常敏感的，包括對TSP業者的資安要求，還有很多人提到它後面的背景，所以可能銀行業者覺得在這個部分要信任一個TSP業者去做這種交易面的平臺，也許會有更高的要求跟標準。"],["林委員楚茵：是，所以這也會變成當我們要走到開放銀行的第三階段的時候，肯定會遇到很大的阻礙，應該是這樣子，因為站在他們的立場上，他們也很怕接下來合作的這個所謂第三方服務業者的平臺會出現他們擔憂的狀況，那這樣會不會變成你要推到下一個部分的時候，坦白說，我在討論這個題目的時候，我也問了我辦公室的助理們，一個可以整合出開放銀行走到第三階段的利與弊到底是在哪裡？比如說，其實現在很多的業者自己都有開發屬於他們自己的網路查詢平臺，你只要有開戶，鍵入了相關資料之後就可以看到你自己在這家銀行裡面，甚至是這個金融集團裡面，可能包括信用卡、保險及帳戶裡面的資金等等這些資訊都有，可是為什麼他們不願意走到下一步的彼此之間資訊共享，真正的癥結點是資安的問題，還是擔心接下來有這種所謂客戶或是所謂使用的消費者之間彼此不願意，就是怕客人被搶走。主委，你們在溝通的過程當中，是什麼樣一個狀況？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個是不是請局長說明一下。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，其實都有啦，除了資安的問題之外，因為接下來是透過第三方去查詢整合，甚至交易，所以這個部分的話，其實就傳統銀行而言，這都是他們所顧慮的。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為有這樣的顧慮，我覺得也可以理解，但是會不會變成這就只能做半套？我們大概就是只能停留在第二階段，讓消費者做資訊的查核，可是要進到第三階段的時候，因為要多方整合，比如說我今天真的進入集保e存摺的這部分就可以看到其他銀行的部分，包括存款等狀況，可是有某些部分它就是不加入。在這裡其實本席只是要提醒你們，我們必須要很真切地去面對可能存在的一些問題，包括業者之間的競爭關係，它可能不是我們認為的只是安全的問題，安全有可能只是他們的藉口，這個部分恐怕也就不是主管機關真的一定要邀請它進來，它很可能就是會一直停留在這個階段。當然我們也知道今天也許是這個會期最後一次來討論這個問題，接下來也許就是下一屆或下一個會期，但它會不會永遠就是卡在這裡而無解？有沒有什麼更可能的溝通方式？我希望主委或是銀行局能夠去注意這方面的問題。"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實我還是很感謝召委安排這樣一個報告案，讓我們聽到很多委員的關切。除了資安，委員今天又提到另外一個業者自己本身的誘因問題。"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想至少我們先把資安部分處理好，至於業者誘因部分，我們再跟公會這邊去多瞭解他們的心態，看看是不是有可能促成。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為對我們來講，我們當然是完全的支持，希望能走到開放銀行的部分。但是呢，也不要因為到目前為止民營行庫參與的不多，就變成整個開放只開放半套，這樣確實是很可惜。"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解。"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員的指導，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來請羅明才委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 二、審查本院民進\n黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":2.3934687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.0515937500000003,"end":4.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.7009687499999995,"end":6.443468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.59534375,"end":107.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.89159375000001,"end":115.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.65846875000001,"end":121.32846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.68284375,"end":122.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.23534375000001,"end":127.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.50471875000001,"end":134.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.45721875,"end":136.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.71409375000002,"end":140.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.43096875,"end":143.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.92409375,"end":145.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.24034375000002,"end":147.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.60284375,"end":151.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.41659375,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.18846875,"end":156.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.20471875,"end":159.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.56721875000002,"end":161.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.60909375,"end":167.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.58284375000002,"end":167.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.61659375000002,"end":200.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.86034375000003,"end":208.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.72409375,"end":221.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.76409375,"end":230.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.25221875000003,"end":232.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.63596875000002,"end":234.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.25159375,"end":237.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.61409375000002,"end":243.89159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.63409375,"end":252.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.22346875000002,"end":316.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.92221875,"end":319.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.01471875000004,"end":371.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.07409375000003,"end":381.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.45659375,"end":384.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.27471875000003,"end":388.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.35846875000004,"end":391.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.78409375,"end":399.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.66471875,"end":420.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.12971875000005,"end":433.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.56659375000004,"end":455.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.68534375,"end":468.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.18971875000005,"end":475.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.85534375000003,"end":478.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.94784375,"end":479.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.66034375000004,"end":498.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.77721875000003,"end":490.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.61971875,"end":499.07534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.46346875,"end":527.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.9990937499999,"end":530.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.85096875,"end":547.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.5022187500001,"end":573.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.0678437500001,"end":578.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.4678437499999,"end":593.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.5078437500001,"end":599.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":599.32971875,"end":615.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.49596875,"end":618.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.39034375,"end":617.0147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.6597187500001,"end":624.8447187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.311,"end":3.909,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請黃天牧黃主委請黃主委上台備選"},{"start":5.934,"end":32.927,"text":"謝謝委員長主委好我想這個對於台股最近的表現我相信不只是委員們在意我知道像今天早上媒體們也都非常的關注因為這對於台灣的整體經濟面來講我相信這一定是有激勵的作用那麼本席找到一個是在2023年8月18號的時候當時歐盟就曾經有一個香港報告就提到這個所謂的一國兩制的瓦解那麼"},{"start":33.607,"end":60.115,"text":"外資撤退中資那麼這個整體來說他們也就看壞了這個整體香港的發展嗎那麼以台灣的現在股市的狀況我先來舉一下是前幾天當時我們第一次台股正式超越港股的時候在野黨就在那邊質疑說這個會不會是有所謂的政治操作甚至於包括連國安基金的設立都被質疑了"},{"start":60.815,"end":76.064,"text":"我相信這個對於臺股30年終於超越香港這樣的一個過程當中其實很多人都是認為這代表著臺灣不論是經過疫情或者是一連串的這樣的打擊之後我們還是屹立不搖"},{"start":77.565,"end":104.443,"text":"主委可以聊一下你怎麼來看歐盟的這一份報告那麼確實外資是不是象徵著一個所謂春江水奶鴨鮮汁的這樣的一個角色那麼面對這近8年來臺股往上上漲了87%而港股卻是下跌27%那麼這其中是不是也某種程度可以看得出來那麼國際尤其是外資這些重大的投資者對於臺灣經濟的一個表態"},{"start":107.125,"end":107.244,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會主席"},{"start":109.045,"end":136.441,"text":"資本市場是一個非常國際化的一個機制所以這個資本市場是不是開放自由上市會公司是不是有這個好的表現都是包括公司治理永續都是外資評估要不要投資參與的因素之一那我覺得台股這麼多年來在大家的尤其委員的指導努力跟我們的努力之下業者努力之下其實是有長途的進步尤其我們的"},{"start":137.802,"end":167.382,"text":"三十年前跟三十年後臺股的資本市場的產業結構有很大的不同現在半導體、電子占一半以上三十年前是傳統產業跟金融產業這些都是我們今天之所以能夠在國際資本市場上有一席之地的重要原因但是有的地區有的國家它因為有些不同的因素的影響讓大家對這個地區或國家有些不同的想法我想我就不多評論但是我想臺股的成功不是成功臺股的發展是有它的因素的"},{"start":168.062,"end":187.519,"text":"所以其實本席會問這個問題主要的是說當這個台灣的台股超越港股那麼我相信許多的不論是投資人又或者是一些財經專家都一路看好的情況底下卻認為說這是民進黨的政府在搞選舉的手段包括連國安基金的設置是不是有國安基金進場護盤都被質疑那麼"},{"start":189.861,"end":207.84,"text":"我們都知道其實有關於金融監理最重要的其實就是金管會金管會對於我們在這個質詢台上包括有沒有一些所謂的必須要關注的就是交易其實金管會、政期局其實包括都是在監理的過程當中那麼"},{"start":209.663,"end":221.243,"text":"經濟部或是國發會其實都是有發出新聞稿來講說這個過程當中就是台灣的經濟越來越好那麼經管會有看到真的有所謂的不法的操作嗎?"},{"start":222.776,"end":243.758,"text":"我在這個場合也接受到很多委員的槌尋包括有沒有什麼選舉行情我都說其實金管會是非常專業、公平、透明的我們不做任何的非金融經濟以外的事情我們就是維護這個市場的穩定發展、透明專業讓大家覺得這個市場的投資是有信心的"},{"start":245.041,"end":260.179,"text":"因為我覺得這樣的一個質詢也許很多人會覺得說這是不是在撐時間但是我認為像這樣的所謂台灣的股市表現得好甚至於連財經專家都肯定的時候"},{"start":260.74,"end":282.497,"text":"但是卻出現這種說為了選舉做多甚至於連國安基金的設置都說是因為有國安基金進場護盤我認為其實金管會必須就是像我剛剛必須要對您提出這樣的質疑或是要求您回答問題的原因在於我們不能說我們自己表現得好然後反而還被在野黨看衰這對於國際怎麼看台灣"},{"start":285.339,"end":298.603,"text":"好,大家就覺得說怎麼我們表現得好反而是在野黨不斷地在唱衰當外資都看好台灣然後看壞香港的發展的時候結果是我們的在野黨在覺得說我們做得不好當然我不會要求金管會必須要像經濟部或者是國發會一樣要去特別發一個新聞稿來做澄清但是至少"},{"start":304.224,"end":316.633,"text":"在主委的回覆當中是可以確定沒有所謂的不法操縱而包括像國安基金的設置國安基金的進場都是有其必要性嗎他不是為了選舉做多是吧"},{"start":317.947,"end":332.576,"text":"我覺得過去沒有現在也沒有好那麼接下來當然就回到我們今天的這個主題的報告我想對於這個開放銀行的部分是主委過去一路以來都支持這樣的一個方向那我們從2019年公開資料的查詢到2021年是給消費者有機會可以來查詢"},{"start":338.86,"end":353.074,"text":"那麼接下來多家銀行的整合的部分會是下一步跟下一個階段嗎?因為我們現在第二階段的部分本席看到的是公銀行庫8家百分之百都參與了但民營的部分其實只有7家如果加進郵局的話這樣算是16家那麼目前為止"},{"start":357.398,"end":368.267,"text":"民營銀行的參與率不高甚至於我必須說是偏低的只有28%主委這是遇到一個什麼樣的情況讓民營銀行覺得興趣缺缺是因為擔心太過開放影響競爭力嗎?"},{"start":372.296,"end":391.307,"text":"這也是今天很多人指導因為這個交易面資訊是非常敏感的包括對TSB業者的治安的要求還有很多人提到他的擴面的背景所以可能銀行業者覺得這個部分要信任一個TSB業者去做這種交易面的平臺也許他會有更高的要求跟標準"},{"start":391.923,"end":419.904,"text":"是所以這也會變成是當我們要走到開放銀行的第三階段的時候肯定會遇到很大的阻礙應該是這樣子因為站在他們的立場上他們也很怕接下來合作的這個所謂第三方的服務業者的平台會出現他們擔憂的狀況那這樣子會不會變成你要推到下一個部分的時候因為其實坦白說我在討論這個題目的時候我也問了我辦公室的助理們說如果"},{"start":421.158,"end":445.865,"text":"一個可以整合出開放銀行走到第三階段的利跟弊到底是在哪裡比如說其實我們現在很多的業者他們自己都有開發他們屬於他們自己的這個網路上面的查詢的平台比如說你只要有開戶你進入了相關的資料之後你可以看到你自己在這家銀行裡面包括這個金融集團裡面我可能是信用卡"},{"start":446.505,"end":451.054,"text":"二、審查本院民進黨總預算案審查程序第三條文修正草"},{"start":456.724,"end":458.384,"text":"主委,你們在溝通的過程當中是什麼樣一個狀況?"},{"start":481.701,"end":497.575,"text":"報告員其實都有啦除了資安的這個問題之外因為接下來是透過這個第三方去查詢整合甚至交易所以這個部分的話其實就傳統銀行而言他們這都是他們顧慮的"},{"start":499.517,"end":527.401,"text":"好 所以因為有這樣的顧慮我覺得也可以理解但是會不會就變成是說這就變成只能做半套我們大概就是只能停留在第二階段讓消費者做資訊的查核可是要進到第三階段的時候要多方整合比如說我今天真的進入吉保的依存者的這個部分我就可以看到其他銀行的部分的包括存款或者是狀況那可是就是"},{"start":527.961,"end":528.761,"text":"二、審查本院民進黨黨團審查程序第三條文修正草"},{"start":548.528,"end":568.227,"text":"那這個部分恐怕也就不是主管機關你真的說你一定要邀請他進來那他很可能就是會一直停留在這個階段因為當然我們知道說可能也許這個會期我們大概今天是最後一次來討論這個問題那接下來也許就是下一屆或下一個會期但他會不會永遠就是卡在這裡而無解"},{"start":569.969,"end":598.878,"text":"那有沒有什麼更可能的溝通方式其實我希望主委或是銀行局能夠去注意這方面的問題其實我還是很感謝召委安排這樣一個報告其實讓我們聽到很多委員的關切除了資安已經有提到另外一個業者自己本身的誘因的問題我想至少我們先把資安的部分處理好那業者誘因部分我們再跟工會這邊再多了解他們的心態看看是不是有可能促成"},{"start":599.377,"end":617.283,"text":"好,因為對我們來講我們當然是完全的支持希望走到開放銀行這個部分但是呢,也不要說因為目前為止民營行戶所增加的不多那就變成是整個開放只開放半套那這確實是很可惜了解,謝謝委員的指導,謝謝好,謝謝林委員接下來我們請羅賓才羅委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"148960","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148960","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720290a73c0bb4946f07dbdc0b11ed89c5ff9c986728e607a032243d6a46985ac7dbe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳椒華","委員發言時間":"11:15:52 - 11:22:29","影片長度":"00:06:37","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回顧與展望（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【12月11日及13日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-20"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":397,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:22:29+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:15:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":733,"blocks":[["陳委員椒華：（11時15分）謝謝召委，請黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委上臺備詢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好，辛苦了！"],["陳委員椒華：主委，這次我們金管會有去COP28嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有去。"],["陳委員椒華：這兩天COP 28大會他們有提出，未來因應氣候變遷，讓地球溫度能夠限制不要超過1.5度的上升，然後其中一個就是提出增加清潔能源投資的融資機制，請問金管會針對這個部分，我們已經有相關的一個機制在了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們在六大核心戰略產業中，其實包括替代能源方面，其實都是作為鼓勵的。"],["陳委員椒華：這是屬於銀行局跟保險局，都有相關業務嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，這個在我們的綠色金融方案中，其實都有鼓勵銀行業、保險業在投融資上去做異合，鼓勵做低碳的融資跟投資。"],["陳委員椒華：好，我請問一下，我們在之前有提過一個，就是綠色能源投資方案裡面有一個SRF，我不知道我們現在融資方案裡面有把這個納進來嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我不太確定，對不起！SRF，可能我孤陋寡聞，不太曉得，可是委員都知道。"],["陳委員椒華：好，這個部分因為它不是屬於綠色能源，它就是燒塑膠，就是把我們廢棄物裡面的塑膠再把它收集起來，然後因為它有熱質，所以可以發電、當作燃料。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員如果覺得這個是有節能或是有減碳的效果，您提供資料給我們，我們看是不是……"],["陳委員椒華：因為我們的永續指標名次這一次被德國的一個團體評定又退步了，所以我是覺得我們在清潔能源的融資機制方面，希望在減碳跟ESG跟配合融資的部分能夠加強，也希望金管會能更瞭解，不要去投資非真正的綠色能源。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["陳委員椒華：再來我要請教主委，我們的揭弊者保護法一直沒辦法通過，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：金管會自己本身在內控制度中都有揭弊的制度。"],["陳委員椒華：現在就是東莞這個案子，主委應該也很清楚，不過我有接到一個資訊，當年東莞案有協助做一個共犯的人，他姓陳，現在居然還可以到海外當經理，但是吹哨者這個部分卻都被阻止了，就是有希望到海外當經理的機會都被遏止了，不知道金管會對於這樣的情形有沒有什麼想法呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我很感謝委員對彰銀這個案子一直給我們很多指導，這個部分的情節，我是不清楚，如果委員願意的話，可不可以會後提供資料，我們請銀行提出說明。"],["陳委員椒華：好，我也希望銀行局或者是相關單位，包括彰銀，能夠給一個明確的說明，可以給本席一個書面報告嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是不是先請委員提供您看到的個案資料？"],["陳委員椒華：好，那請銀行局今天來找本席，我們希望在月底前能夠有一個書面的報告。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，待會我們請同仁去拜會您，謝謝。"],["陳委員椒華：好，謝謝。再來就是World Gym的案子，World Gym這個案子因為有很明確的非法盜刷信用卡、不當推銷等行為，因為它現在已經上市了，所以我也希望知道我們金管會對相關公司治理的情形要怎麼來面對，尤其像教育部有提供本席有關World Gym爭議查察情形及輔導精進作為的報告，其中有五項違失的態樣，主委您看一下，我們金管會針對這些態樣有相關的警示、限制或相關作為嗎？我們如何來因應呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：就我的瞭解，在交易所審查過程中，已經就外界對這個公司的一些質疑，有去做了一些審查，但並不是上市之後就一切都不需要去遵循，我們還是會繼續去注意，尤其請交易所注意這家公司就您所提到的這些所謂違失態樣有沒有存在，如有存在，我想交易所跟證期局都會同步依法去處理。"],["陳委員椒華：好，這5點如果涉及金管會所監理的相關業務，你們也可以進行監理及提出相關報告，對於相關的公司，金管會不是做個案監理，而是應該做比較全面性的制度面的監理，請問你們怎麼來監理呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為任何一個上市櫃公司跟交易所都是有契約關係，交易所已經知道委員的關心，所以在審查中也有注意，您垂詢的這些所謂資安或公司治理中有關消費者保護的事情，交易所會定期去瞭解這家公司執行的情況，如果有違失，交易所會處理，必要的時候，需要牽涉到金管會，證期局會去做處理。"],["陳委員椒華：好，我們也希望不要再有類似的案例發生。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["陳委員椒華：畢竟我們覺得這個很可惜，本來是一個很好的健身產業，因為這樣的爭議卻讓大家卻步。"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解。"],["陳委員椒華：好，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳椒華委員。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 二、審查本院民進\n黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.31721875,"end":6.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":9.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.34596875,"end":10.274093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.544093750000002,"end":10.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.03346875,"end":11.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.72534375,"end":12.450968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.78846875,"end":18.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.64409375,"end":23.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.12846875,"end":28.245968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.43159375,"end":30.203468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.422843750000002,"end":37.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.15159375,"end":42.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.20159375,"end":46.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.24721875,"end":53.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.98034375,"end":58.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.89534375,"end":61.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.063468750000006,"end":64.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.78034375,"end":68.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.53909375,"end":73.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.11221875000001,"end":82.12784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.33034375000001,"end":85.72221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.83596875,"end":92.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.80596875,"end":90.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.21471875,"end":108.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.52909375,"end":113.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.40159375,"end":127.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.65659375000001,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.59659375,"end":134.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.55409375000002,"end":135.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.52409375000002,"end":141.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.33784375000002,"end":143.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.65409375000002,"end":150.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.01159375,"end":153.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.68659375000001,"end":155.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.63534375,"end":174.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.97409375,"end":190.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.22471875000002,"end":195.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.37159375000002,"end":208.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.96034375000002,"end":218.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.05159375000002,"end":222.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.25784375,"end":227.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.06721875000002,"end":227.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.40471875,"end":228.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.72096875000003,"end":232.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.57721875000001,"end":234.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.42471875,"end":248.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.22409375,"end":251.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.24471875,"end":266.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.19596875,"end":278.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.65409375,"end":290.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.24284375,"end":296.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.96346875,"end":298.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.87034375,"end":304.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.21971875,"end":308.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.14721875000004,"end":315.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.59346875,"end":323.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.96346875,"end":324.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.94221875,"end":325.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.15721875,"end":326.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.13596875,"end":327.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.09784375000004,"end":330.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.49409375000005,"end":337.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.08784375000005,"end":339.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.60659375,"end":344.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.15846875,"end":350.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.96346875,"end":353.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.15284375000005,"end":359.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.63284375,"end":365.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.12159375000005,"end":370.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.94346875,"end":382.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.01034375,"end":375.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start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