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並委員會決議辦理 有沒有意見沒有意見通過第二案 改組決議 沒有意見通過第三案 改組決議 沒有意見通過第四案 改組決議 沒有意見通過第五案 並委員會決議辦理 沒有意見通過"},{"start":2495.526,"end":2505.516,"text":"第六案 改組結議 沒人見通過第七案 改組結議 沒人見通過第八案 框刪科目 我們就不討論第九案"},{"start":2514.957,"end":2522.501,"text":"第十案 改組決議沒有意見通過第十一案 通商第十二案 秘魯約決議辦理沒有意見通過第十三案 檢列150萬年"},{"start":2541.605,"end":2555.852,"text":"請部長因為這個涉及到本部和外管的那個資訊的安全的處理那就建請免於檢列是不是這個是什麼測案好不好"},{"start":2557.566,"end":2572.598,"text":"主結議改組結議十三案改組結議沒有意見通過十四案併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過十五案併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過十六案併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過十七案併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":2577.682,"end":2577.882,"text":"現在就看18案"},{"start":2602.469,"end":2604.892,"text":"改組決議19案改組決議20案凍結100萬元20案改組決議沒有意見通過"},{"start":2628.347,"end":2652.996,"text":"委員長這個我講一下好嗎就是說我們知道之前這個中美洲銀行有弊案發生那民間團體也公開去揭露這個事情所以實地黨團這邊是希望我們在研議用現有的台灣獎學金制度來"},{"start":2654.383,"end":2655.664,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":2672.312,"end":2699.543,"text":"二十三案改組結議沒有一件通過二十四案改組結議沒有一件通過二十五案並委員會結議辦理沒有一件通過二十六案改組結議沒有一件通過二十七、二十八都是通山那就二十九案並委員會結議辦理沒有一件通過三十案通山三十一案"},{"start":2701.089,"end":2702.013,"text":"委員會啦 委員會已經動200了"},{"start":2708.794,"end":2732.633,"text":"請部長說明一下好不好請部長說明一下好不好好 說明一下好 院長 各位委員因為那個涉及到故邦的這個事情我們每年都需要跟這些友邦去跟他們簽約那如果說有凍結的話可能會有自愛難行的這個部分所以建議就併委員會決議的那委員會決議是多少四百五"},{"start":2739.333,"end":2765.127,"text":"委員會動結450萬好那31案就併委員結辦理32案也併委員結辦理好不好好33案也併委員結辦理好34案也併委員結辦理好35案改組決議那沒有意見通過好報告部長36案通三35案怎樣行政單位有哪一個案35案就"},{"start":2766.361,"end":2771.584,"text":"改組決議跟院長報告一下有關於34案我們已經跟邱委員的辦公室已經做過溝通了所以這個就建議撤案第三十四案改組決議好不好改組決議好 改組決議好冷人在這裡欸應委員 這一半你對他都沒有傷過"},{"start":2795.794,"end":2796.094,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":2822.276,"end":2849.113,"text":"這個都通過了36案通山到這裡就稍微休息一下看36案主決議吧通山公務通山公務不是主決議我們要改主決議要改主決議通山再加一個主決議沒有啊我們就把這一案改成主決議你覺得是屬於通山的公務等一下他會有刪除的對啊我們在刪除前就改主決議"},{"start":2851.498,"end":2872.722,"text":"37案主決議,文字修正沒有意見就修正通過38案主決議,文字修正沒有意見就修正通過39案主決議,文字修正沒有意見就修正通過40案主決議,文字修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":2877.785,"end":2878.506,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2904.241,"end":2918.67,"text":"46案主決議﹖沒有意見就照案通過47案測案48案主決議﹖沒有意見就照案通過48案等一下48我們委員會已經有討論過 看是不是能夠併合委員會決議處理48案併合委員會等一下 剛才不是說通過嗎"},{"start":2932.227,"end":2938.57,"text":"委員會決議是什麼委員會決議是什麼我們那是主決議耶主決議怎麼會併委員會 事發案是主決議委員會決議是請我們提供書面報告 那我們正在轉移中書面報告 三個月期書面報告"},{"start":2959.497,"end":2985.507,"text":"那我們就是通過就好了啊就兩個議案啊好啦好啦好啦好就這樣齁好來49案主決議文字調整沒有意見等一下有文字修正文字修正對院長你有看到嗎文字修正49案他沒有給你嗎好49案主決議有文字修正剛剛才調的有修正通過"},{"start":2988.848,"end":2989.328,"text":"51案 主決議51案 主決議"},{"start":3016.741,"end":3035.81,"text":"主席測案好了,兩個留一個就好了五十五十一留一個就好了主決議,沒有建議測案通過沒有沒有,我們建議測案因為最主要就是說那個以色列在我們駐以色列代表處在協助我們國人離開這個其實是非常有效率啦所以我們建議測案不是不是,我們其實是希望說"},{"start":3036.87,"end":3037.01,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":3060.814,"end":3064.097,"text":"謝偉我這樣講好不好前面那個文字齁不是寫理想文這主要是後面要求外交部那這樣就好了"},{"start":3086.681,"end":3095.284,"text":"好,就是原要求外交部原要求,前面兩行消掉書面報告這兩個案子其實是一樣的?可以嗎?兩個案子要並一案就好了,其實書面報告就好了可以嗎?"},{"start":3101.601,"end":3103.883,"text":"五十一案也不是很像"},{"start":3131.567,"end":3137.308,"text":"五十案要保留五十案主決議就文字修正修正通過啦好不好來再看一下"},{"start":3161.732,"end":3161.832,"text":"主決議主決議"},{"start":3191.277,"end":3194.859,"text":"五十三案改組決議 每日間通過 五十四案屬於通商"},{"start":3220.596,"end":3243.546,"text":"阿不然我們這個就討論討論這個通案啦好 謝謝部長10點50要休息到齊不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以"},{"start":3251.601,"end":3259.227,"text":"市長要說通山,不然你要十點五十給我休息不要休息"},{"start":3346.102,"end":3346.563,"text":"各位先進"},{"start":3368.211,"end":3368.652,"text":"這很恐怖"},{"start":3470.011,"end":3499.398,"text":"好那各位先進我們就繼續開會現在要進行國防部主管的部分預算主管部分那我現在介紹一下列席的首長介紹國防部部長邱國正先生接下來就請大家看我們的五十五案"},{"start":3501.533,"end":3518.142,"text":"那改組協議有沒有意見?好,沒有意見通過56案改組協議沒有意見通過57案改組協議沒有意見通過57案有沒有意見?改動百分之一喔?那個是商量一下,改組協議好了"},{"start":3519.417,"end":3519.637,"text":"委員會動五千萬"},{"start":3547.785,"end":3557.439,"text":"五十七案就凍結百分之一,沒有見通過五十八案通三,不處理五十九案、六十案都通三,不處理"},{"start":3558.24,"end":3561.282,"text":"五十九還沒有挑過五十九還沒有挑過"},{"start":3574.91,"end":3598.095,"text":"五八五九六十都十一五三不是不是我們還是要說明一下我們是不是請部長說明一下就是我們的國防安全研究院為什麼他是拿國防部的預算但是他卻在二月的時候接受媒體的專訪那時候他就可以預測說一定哪一個總統候選人一定會贏這是什麼樣子的"},{"start":3602.135,"end":3623.474,"text":"他這個報告,他個人訪問以後,他個人表達,但我們這個事情已經跟國防院、國防院有表達過,不疑。國防院的董事長,以前我們老的長官,他也跟我講很抱歉,以後不會有這種類案發生。這不代表國防院,他真的是個人,特別跟委員報告。"},{"start":3624.335,"end":3638.842,"text":"他是在國防安全研究院的會議嗎?在媒體在政任節目的時候他自己就表達的這一點我們也真的跟國防院一直在表達在不疑"},{"start":3640.101,"end":3664.337,"text":"因為他是代表國防研究安全研究院的所長那他在外面發表也就是代表他這個身份去發表那這之後他還有再發表相關的言論嗎?後面就沒有了,我們後面最起碼我們都要克盡我們職責跟他勸導委員做說明是吧?好謝謝委員"},{"start":3670.265,"end":3670.445,"text":"611案凍結10萬年,並委員會結議辦理61"},{"start":3694.375,"end":3698.078,"text":"並委員結辦理好 同樣的公務嘛好 沒問題就通過63案並委員結辦理那沒問題就通過"},{"start":3703.797,"end":3726.186,"text":"66組結議"},{"start":3727.639,"end":3745.291,"text":"呃 66案原本有跟委員辦公室討論過 原本是統一策案 現在委員好像有一些的指導主決議文字調整是吧 趕快調整好吧 那我們做這個文字調整 好來主決議了66案 本來就是主決議嘛 66案主決議 文字調整了 那民運監視修正通過67案主決議 議題案辦理 好 民運監視照案通過"},{"start":3756.16,"end":3778.437,"text":"68案主決議68案保留69案主決議主決議本部配合辦理但是建議就是說原來是一個月改成三個月提出書面報告我再重新宣布一下就是說如果有碰到一個月兩個月"},{"start":3779.905,"end":3781.686,"text":"69案就主決議文書修正修正通過"},{"start":3802.752,"end":3827.707,"text":"70案主決議 文字修正 文字修正 那沒有意見就修正通過71案主決議 文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過72案主決議 並委員會決議辦理 有沒有意見 沒有意見通過73案主決議 有沒有意見 一體案辦理 照案通過74案主決議 我們建議文字做修正"},{"start":3829.502,"end":3845.459,"text":"七十四案主決議 文字做修正 沒意見就修正通過七十五案主決議議題案辦理好 院長講一分補充講一分鐘啦就是說這個案基本上我跟裴同游院長去美國國會訪問啦齁"},{"start":3847.361,"end":3849.522,"text":"原來美國的國會議員有這麼多位美軍出身﹖戰鬥機飛行員﹖許多的將領﹖包括中階﹖基層的軍人"},{"start":3869.588,"end":3885.719,"text":"有些國會議員的門口就會放說這些照片是美軍這幾年來在全球各地為國犧牲的軍人也就是說他的這個"},{"start":3887.241,"end":3906.723,"text":"軍人在美國的reportation非常高部長也知道這個狀況所以我基本上會希望說光部針對如何提升我國國軍的榮耀跟社會上的地位reportation能夠有一些努力"},{"start":3908.004,"end":3935.703,"text":"就是說一個社群一個國家如果說對於這些為國家犧牲奉獻的人沒有一個基本的敬意的話那這個共同體是很難這個有一個團結感的所以就這部分尤其是說美國的許多的這個從軍的人到最後離開這個軍隊之後他事實上在政界跟商界也獲得許多的敬重"},{"start":3936.583,"end":3960.649,"text":"尤其是說軍人的這種堅毅果斷紀律的這個形象應該是可以這個深植人心的也希望廣部能夠注意這個部分這樣我們隨時任何活動都把這些加進去平常也做宣導強調是 謝謝委員好 那75案主決議我們就照樣通過"},{"start":3964.063,"end":3985.821,"text":"七十六案主決議七十六案是有關於三軍儀隊撤出中正紀念堂的提案昨天有討論這個案子是保留建議併案保留七十六案保留院長補充講一句話因為我覺得國防部其實很重要一個部分就是說你的任務就是保家衛國"},{"start":3987.142,"end":3987.202,"text":"主席"},{"start":4005.769,"end":4031.254,"text":"放在這個地方做這個中正紀念堂然後三軍一隊這個對光部是好的因為這裡反而是捲入了一個台灣的歷史上非常有爭議性的issue所以在這個基礎之上真的不管是文化部或光部尤其是過去事實上在陳水扁總統執政的時候光部的三軍一隊事實上是有撤離這個中正紀念堂的"},{"start":4031.414,"end":4032.074,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算部分．"},{"start":4056.269,"end":4057.57,"text":"這個題目連美人都必講"},{"start":4082.858,"end":4097.726,"text":"那現在坦白講這個總預算今年又出現了有關這些問題市長要徹底解決也就是說下一屆可能要提促進轉移生意條約再修正案另外"},{"start":4098.379,"end":4119.937,"text":"另外有關於中正經常組織法都要修才能夠讓社會上能夠徹底來面對這個問題來解決所以這是暫保留每年都要討論但是偷偷的捨不得不知道同項將來怎麼樣都要修法的好不好好 保留好 謝謝接下來77案主決議那併委員會決議辦理"},{"start":4123.516,"end":4127.417,"text":"主決議議題案辦理議題案辦理議題案辦理照案通過接下來就請大家看70案70案改正類800萬"},{"start":4150.98,"end":4178.93,"text":"七十九案 七十九案 七十九案 整列八百萬 是整列八百萬 好好 那就通過八十案改組決議 沒意見通過好 那院長再補充一下因為八十案當然國防部做了許多文字上的修正啦齁但是基本上意義意義跟我們原意差不多所以就這部分我也同意啦齁但是也希望說國防部能夠針對這種"},{"start":4180.43,"end":4206.838,"text":"新型態的戰爭包括像現在以色列跟阿馬斯或是烏克蘭跟俄羅斯的這個狀況新型態的戰爭並不是說變成是說不是說只有軍人跟軍人之間的戰鬥也包括就是說全民國防等等之類的尤其是說你可以看到像烏克蘭的這個狀況尤其是他跟他的敵對的國家他的實力相差很懸殊的情況之下"},{"start":4208.999,"end":4209.2,"text":"主席"},{"start":4234.332,"end":4258.008,"text":"那80案就改組決議 沒有意見就通過啦好 81案改組決議 沒有意見通過82案 併委員會決議辦理 那沒有意見通過83案 也併委員會決議辦理 那個不好意思那個 院長 我們83案是不是請國防部我們是不是可以溝通 是不是改組決議你們同意嗎 好不好 我們改組決議好不好提書面報告改組決議是吧 不凍結"},{"start":4264.379,"end":4272.525,"text":"就凍結併委員會辦理併委員會辦理 那就併委員會辦理好了凍結的部分併委員會辦理提案改組結議我們重新更正 我們就同意併委員會辦理凍結併委員會辦理凍結併委員會辦理沒有意見就通過巴士案併委員會辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":4295.608,"end":4304.716,"text":"85 通山 暫不處理86 仲傑10萬年事務室也併委員接辦理86 也併委員接辦理87 88 都通山就暫不處理好不好"},{"start":4314.55,"end":4341.048,"text":"按照通算處理8989我要講一下喔院長雖然說我們現在已經就是同意那個國防部的文字修正但是我們必須要了解喔就是海軍的軍品軍用器材跟資訊管理系統軍品的數量金額都常常發生錯誤而且是不是小錯是巨額的錯誤喔那"},{"start":4341.856,"end":4352.474,"text":"這些都沒有查出原因而讓他一直就是延期這樣子漏息一直都沒有糾正沒有改變我覺得這不對的是不是"},{"start":4355.474,"end":4373.534,"text":"我跟委員報告,每次各軍種有這些問題的話,我們都是即時來做一個檢討改進的。但委員就講有些個案,我想建議我們同仁海軍會再去跟委員做說明,把哪一個個案還沒有處理,或處理不夠周圍的,這樣我們知道以後我們來強化。"},{"start":4374.955,"end":4375.496,"text":"民眾感到更混亂"},{"start":4395.44,"end":4406.826,"text":"我們單獨來跟委員做說明報告哪個個案我們怎麼做的,去跟委員做說明我們就按照文字修正結議,就文字修正好,每一件通過,90案"},{"start":4422.924,"end":4436.784,"text":"委員會接辦理嗎不是 院長我說明一下這個九十案也有跟部長說明過就是說這個光部在新竹市的這個寡婦樓的都更案那在"},{"start":4438.126,"end":4456.565,"text":"參議集團這個行賄這個當時的沉鄉署的嚴建署沉鄉分署長洪嘉宏兩千萬的匯款那在這個那他同時又新組另外兩個遠雄的都更案所會四千五百萬被收押那他最近已經被判刑八年兩個月"},{"start":4457.586,"end":4477.543,"text":"是非常清楚就是說這個判決書上面寫的就是這個分署長那掌握了資格審查中所有的細節跟決策權那因此而讓這個倡議集團下面的這個李明開發拿下這個都更案而且他基本上就是唯一家符合資格的廠商"},{"start":4478.063,"end":4478.323,"text":"判刑"},{"start":4498.469,"end":4522.319,"text":"這個倡議集團的這個應該是說這個高層基本上是被緩起訴表示說基本上他們都有認罪的這個狀況之下所以是沒有道理說讓這樣的違法取得的標案的廠商還繼續在施作光譜的這個都更案所以我基本上會認為說這個就是應該要解除契約收回這個國有土地"},{"start":4522.759,"end":4545.268,"text":"那至於說未來再怎麼處理的話﹖當然就是用公開透明的方式去進行﹖或者是有相關的作用那我同樣也質詢過這個公共工程委員會的吳哲成主委﹖他的見解基本上也是一樣的就是說沒有道理讓一個行賄的廠商還繼續讓他施作我們政府的這個都更案"},{"start":4546.108,"end":4561.056,"text":"所以部長就這部分的話我覺得這個是非常明確的而且這個已經發生這樣的舞弊的事情的時候也對國防部如果要繼續施作的話基本上對國防部的reputation是不好的"},{"start":4563.064,"end":4581.022,"text":"我跟總統報告,這個案子總統很關切,也連續跟我們講好幾次我們這案子辦的時候,據我了解,它行賄跟受賄的,未必是同一個關係所以目前我們當然也是這樣,假如有政績確鑿,該要退就退,該要重來就重來"},{"start":4581.442,"end":4581.702,"text":"主席"},{"start":4601.421,"end":4626.373,"text":"當然就是說行政院要召開會議要集國防部或者是說這個內政部跟工程會當然我們也是這個肯定這個態度但是部長我必須要補充一下因為那時候我去質詢的時候是副部長在你沒在那他的回應也是說因為現在是一審判八年兩個月所以這個案件還沒去定驗還沒確定但是事實上不是這樣因為這個案件"},{"start":4627.293,"end":4649.947,"text":"當然還沒確定 還沒二審三審 他現在上訴訟可是我剛剛就是要告訴你說 他已經認罪了不管是行賄的人 或者是說收賄的官員 都是認罪或者貪污智慧條例收了兩千萬 甚至還有另外兩個案是四千五百萬其實他的收賄案件 這個加起來是將近九千萬"},{"start":4651.368,"end":4673.18,"text":"那不可能判8年2個月﹖是因為他有認罪﹖所以他有認罪的情況之下﹖二審是不可能﹖也許行度有可能改變﹖但是這已經很﹖機率很低了﹖因為這個是7年以上有期徒刑之罪﹖所以他已經認罪﹖行會也認罪﹖然後官員也認罪的情況之下﹖"},{"start":4673.88,"end":4695.523,"text":"二審是不可能改判無罪所以國防部我認為國防部的這個憂慮是多慮啦坦白講因為你們也應該有這個法治師嘛就是說你們應該也有法律的專家可以去諮詢才對那部長你可能可以多去了解而且實務上"},{"start":4697.004,"end":4721.319,"text":"並不是說定讞之後才要去跟他解約,沒有這不可能是說是...是,我也跟總統說啊就法律觀點來講的話,沒有到最後確認都有可能會變,但我不預設立場,可能會有一個轉變但就我們立場來講,你沒有定論的東西,我們就另外做出一個決定萬一將來出一些問題,它有一個差錯,那我們跟著有差錯"},{"start":4722.819,"end":4750.469,"text":"這個後果是一發不可收拾我比較可能要賠出更多一個補償金這樣的話我國安部承擔不起的那這應該是說公共會公共工程委員會就這個部分的話其實他的這個條文裡面也寫得非常清楚就是說公共會的見解也認為說不用到定焉的程度然後本來就是說你在這個有相關的問題產生的時候也可以去解約啦"},{"start":4751.129,"end":4752.169,"text":"90案保留91案是不是也併委員會接辦理"},{"start":4776.121,"end":4776.441,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4793.933,"end":4820.674,"text":"9393939393"},{"start":4821.152,"end":4822.773,"text":"是不是併委員會辦理要扣牧場他們去調整"},{"start":4853.729,"end":4854.269,"text":"96案 檢列20萬人 沒有見通過"},{"start":4884.141,"end":4894.903,"text":"好來97案是不是也要動 併委員會好 同意 併委員會辦理97案併委員會接辦理 沒人見通過98案建議改列組決議好 98案改組決議好 我們那個98案我們同意併委員會辦理併委員會接辦理 好來"},{"start":4914.264,"end":4918.586,"text":"99 案同意101 案改組結議沒有見通過102 案改組結議沒有見通過103 案改檢例這邊是五十萬"},{"start":4937.892,"end":4940.312,"text":"104案是不是因為前面凍結了3000多萬那這邊再凍結4000萬是不是病委員會結辦?病委員會啦一億多而言凍4000萬"},{"start":4964.076,"end":4964.617,"text":"改組決議105通3106通3107改檢列30萬元"},{"start":4986.873,"end":4991.257,"text":"這個是賴市法委員的這位有跟委員辦公室都說明溝通過"},{"start":5018.998,"end":5020.541,"text":"108通3我們就暫不處理109就通3也暫不處理1010"},{"start":5029.314,"end":5049.044,"text":"動結五十萬年 要不要病委員會決議辦理 同意 110病委員會決議辦理 沒意見通過11通3 12通3 13通3 都到時候病案處理了11宿主決議 那有沒有意見 沒意見通過11宿主決議 同意 沒意見召喚通過"},{"start":5059.996,"end":5083.812,"text":"116 組結議同意一體案辦理17 組結議一體案辦理好 並...照案通過啊就照案通過嘛好 照案通過好 來18 組結議文字修正文字修正 組結議修正通過好 同意19 組結議"},{"start":5088.42,"end":5111.624,"text":"議題案辦理一二零組決議一二零組決議這邊我們可能要做個補充說明要求本部要每一季把那個軍頭案執行的不管是公開或機密的都要發文給立法院我們記咧 我們記不要"},{"start":5119.534,"end":5140.546,"text":"委員這邊跟您做個報告我們跟美國的軍售案從明年開始他的財務清整頻率從每一年改成每半年這已經是對所有軍售國裡面密度最高的那如果我們每一季提供報告的話那不要寄咧我們改成每半年但是機密報告的部分我們依委員會的機密會議來做報告沒辦法提供書面資料專案啦專案機密報告那你這樣啦"},{"start":5148.39,"end":5172.615,"text":"他有修正文字嗎?我們有修正文字了每半年可以啦每半年可以上下會期每半年你這個要機密預算要在機密報告嗎?對啊就是專案機密報告那這早晚就可以排了"},{"start":5175.029,"end":5181.633,"text":"配合立法院上下半年會期以公開資料方式提供令事需要由立法院外交國防委員會要求專案機密報告"},{"start":5203.797,"end":5204.738,"text":"一二零組結議文字修正"},{"start":5229.673,"end":5238.564,"text":"修正文字的120組結議修正通過121組結議同意辦理好 照案通過122組結議同意辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":5245.526,"end":5268.615,"text":"一二三主決議 同意辦理 照案通過一二四主決議一二四我們這邊要做個補充說明因為這邊提到說請國安部針對於軍事投資建案作業規定等三項的行政規則在修訂的時候要向立法院提出專案報告並將現行的規定送外委會來備查我們是不是可以建議就是說因為我們每年的配合預算書表送立法院的時候有"},{"start":5269.195,"end":5271.577,"text":"合併年度五年兵力整建計畫及施政計畫報告向立法院外交國防委員會報告"},{"start":5295.094,"end":5296.434,"text":"修正通過修正通過"},{"start":5321.226,"end":5331.813,"text":"一二七組結議 文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過一二三也是改三個月跟書面報告一二三也是修正通過一二八組結議配合辦理 照案通過一二九組結議 配合辦理 照案通過"},{"start":5347.062,"end":5370.445,"text":"一三零 主決議做文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過一三一 主決議並委員會決議辦理﹖沒有意見就通過一三二 主決議並委員會決議辦理﹖沒有意見通過一三三 主決議並委員會決議辦理﹖沒有意見通過一三四 測案一三五 主決議文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":5372.466,"end":5386.533,"text":"136 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過137 主決議 並委員六決議辦理 沒意見通過138 測案139 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過140 主決議 並委員六決議辦理 沒意見通過141 主決議 並委員六決議辦理 沒意見通過142 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過143 主決議"},{"start":5402.349,"end":5426.047,"text":"有沒有意見配合辦理好 召喚通過144主決議文字修正好144主決議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過145撤案好報告院長這邊是不是普通報告第96案103案跟107案是三檢案那是不是這邊也是同一科目進行調整"},{"start":5427.748,"end":5427.908,"text":"國安部長"},{"start":5457.831,"end":5458.631,"text":"謝謝 接下來就國安局"},{"start":5475.874,"end":5477.815,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5500.972,"end":5501.152,"text":"主席"},{"start":5516.025,"end":5523.488,"text":"現在大家在意的是你那個區域化過大了它化過太大了你這麼一年不能化太大了"},{"start":5547.283,"end":5548.624,"text":"《中華民國113年度總預算案》"},{"start":5569.5,"end":5569.72,"text":"主席響鐘"},{"start":5595.936,"end":5596.837,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5620.332,"end":5620.593,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5634.477,"end":5635.057,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5659.48,"end":5660.521,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5686.923,"end":5687.523,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5734.284,"end":5734.304,"text":"我們繼續開會"},{"start":5737.987,"end":5755.977,"text":"第一開會接下來是國安局主管的那首先我來介紹介紹列席的首長國家安全局局長蔡明彥先生接下來我們就請大家看146案"},{"start":5758.564,"end":5776.79,"text":"那146案 這個臺灣民眾黨 邱董召你的意見了啦 146案好 那個 院長我想這個案子是今天的重點 針對這個案網的事情因為現在目前十大民院之首 我想詐騙是國人深受這個詐騙之苦"},{"start":5778.49,"end":5805.604,"text":"那在這次2024大選之前已經有傳出這個網路上有數千國人遭到監控而且有這個暗網有發現有高價出售情治機關偵控數據疑似這個企圖抹黑影響選舉那調查局表示現在正在這個深入調查當中但是我們當時第一時間來去了解並沒有給一個明確的回覆而且如果這個消息是真的話其實"},{"start":5806.964,"end":5830.031,"text":"選舉期間應該行政中立的相關情治單位現在目前有傳出監聽國內許多政要的這個監聽的這個紀錄齁那這個其實有行政不中立的問題那我們認為國安局應該針對這個案子詳細跟大眾說明齁除了不要影響大選的公平公正之外齁因為台灣的民主得來不易那另外一個部分就是說"},{"start":5831.231,"end":5847.619,"text":"現在他目前網路上公告這些資料據我們了解基本上有七八成是符合事實的那當然我們第一時間跟國安局還有這個調查局了解他們是說目前相關的資料在查核中那也請最高檢最高檢這邊也責成這個臺北地檢署來"},{"start":5850.62,"end":5852.421,"text":"邱委員我建議一下好不好你這個凍結10%不要說凍結啦然後你講說"},{"start":5880.461,"end":5906.299,"text":"等國安局第16任總統附同選舉（立委選舉（期間如何讓選舉不受各自影響弄一個組結議好不好那就不要有動結數我想文字大家可以討論好不好形式可以那我們還是希望局長幫我們這個案子說明一下目前現在的狀況我先講結論好不好好不好局長說明以前我先講結論這是要動結數不要的弄改個組結議那請局長說明一下好不好"},{"start":5909.721,"end":5909.801,"text":"通訊監察"},{"start":5924.192,"end":5926.393,"text":"公務預算部分８立法院黨團協商８事由．立法院黨團協商．公務預算部分．立法院黨團協商．"},{"start":5946.202,"end":5972.618,"text":"進入司法程序之後,我們行政單位、官團隊實在不適合針對偵辦的個案來進行太多的一個評論那對於司法機關偵辦的過程跟結果,我們都予以尊重那第三個重點是委員關切到的假訊息散佈的問題那這部分我們有積極的在查處查處的重點包括追溯假訊息散播的來源、散播的管道以及散播的方式,這是第一部分那第二部分也會針對相關的假訊息來進行通報"},{"start":5973.639,"end":5996.772,"text":"所以從今年到現在為止我們已經通報到行政院有快700個假訊息的案件讓行政部門可以及時的來應處那第三個我們會把相關的假訊息散播的這些有問題的帳號會向社群媒體來做檢舉所以現在大概已經有下架包括臉書還有YouTube已經下架有幾千個有問題的帳號所以在查找的部分我們把大概處理的情形跟委員做以上的說明謝謝"},{"start":5999.023,"end":6016.768,"text":"第一 定位成認知作戰假訊息 依法行政是你們的標準進入司法程序 這個部分我們也尊重但是如何要後續來預防或是防治甚至是後續的查處 包含從資訊流 金流 還有整個的"},{"start":6018.828,"end":6039.702,"text":"員頭的追蹤管理這個部分有沒有一些因應措施對 有 針對那個溯源的部分我們都採用比較新的技術把假訊息散播的一個過程跟網路來做相關的查找那特別現在有很多的假訊息散播的帳號它是人工的帳號 一次性的帳號那這部分我們都會做完整的一個收集來提供給相關的單位來做查辦"},{"start":6042.212,"end":6070.178,"text":"院長 我想我們同意改成主決議一個月內向立法院提出報告應該要快點說明因為時間也很短總統選舉快要結束了在這個中間 那個國人有疑慮的部分是不是應該要先說明清楚或者是如果沒有辦法說明清楚的話現在也應該藉由預算協商的時候那個局長也應該說明清楚"},{"start":6070.818,"end":6096.061,"text":"現在這樣子喔我覺得因為那個消息一丟出來就變成說不管是朝野都政治人物然後呢他的電話在哪裡我們去查了然後現在你說假訊息是哪些是假訊息到現在為止你就去丟給高監署然後一推250然後最後就是造成一個"},{"start":6097.001,"end":6114.676,"text":"韓城效應造成一個恐怖的氛圍在那裡這樣很不好啊這個東西你講說這個假訊息你對於假訊息的處理我感覺國安局就是假處理假處理就是有政治目的在假處理感覺是非常不好的在裡面的人你會怎麼想"},{"start":6121.622,"end":6143.606,"text":"你們不能說到現在為止,我剛剛聽你講,到現在為止都沒有答案啊都沒有答案啊只是說我丟給公務員署了,丟給公務員署了,這樣而已這有一定的行政處理程序嘛,一定的嚴謹度嘛不是說他出來,講說這小訊息就結束了我想這個案子第一個我還是很建議,凍結數就不要了"},{"start":6147.025,"end":6153.612,"text":"主決議我們同意主決議但是我們 我想 局長你在針對剛剛那個國民黨團的意見我覺得你再詳細說明一下因為老實講選舉也剩31天而已那你再提一個月書面報告老實講也來不及"},{"start":6168.646,"end":6196.831,"text":"所以我希望你們再針對﹐包含剛剛講的認知作戰﹐高檢署現在的進度﹐還有你們後續要怎麼預防﹐然後假訊息的判讀﹐怎麼樣跟國人來告知﹐我覺得這個部分﹐我覺得你講清楚好不好﹐你在這邊講清楚﹐那你們這個書面報告﹐我這邊具體建議﹐是不是兩個禮拜好不好﹐兩個禮拜﹐這個書面報告坦白講﹐它有實效性好不好﹐那怎麼實效性都是﹐坦白講都是一樣嘛﹐因為它總統公告"},{"start":6199.052,"end":6221.754,"text":"國安局應該請國安局在怪假進行的部分隨時出來澄清不過澄清的方面已經要澄清了當然他們比較嚴謹嘛對 案件在第一時間 最高檢已經出來說明沒有 那就發個新聞稿而已啦 我老實說啦那一個資訊的判讀 你們說你們還要再去做查核那目前就我們的了解 那上面基本上七八成是真的啊"},{"start":6222.873,"end":6242.972,"text":"七八成是真的﹖或許有部分是假﹖現在詐騙最大﹖真假難分﹖他七分真 三分假﹖你為什麼那麼多人被騙﹖就是因為他拿到你部分真實的資料﹖去年也有那十五萬就可以買到這些﹖柯總報紙是不講而已﹖我老實說﹖你也很擔心被監聽吧﹖很多我們自己的資訊也被公告﹖"},{"start":6245.074,"end":6272.289,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分是一個寒蟬效應之外我們先不講選舉嘛那國人最痛恨就是這個詐騙這真真假假最難分辨那現在既然這個案子已經這麼高度社會關注我希望局長趁今天這個時間大家提出意見你再詳細說明一下尤其就是說源頭的管理預防的機制還有假訊息的判讀甚至你甚至每個禮拜甚至每天你都要出來澄清假訊息可能我覺得都有必要有 這個有"},{"start":6272.709,"end":6300.585,"text":"好 趁這個機會再跟國人說明一下我覺得不錯 邱委員講得非常好我覺得現在假訊息的認定 是來認定外面有一些什麼第三方來認定那很多人都知道第三方 有些第三方 都是老科的車役在認定喔沒有車役 我就直譯部隊而已上面認定中心"},{"start":6301.966,"end":6302.206,"text":"國安局認定"},{"start":6323.26,"end":6346.767,"text":"這些團體來認定 這些亂地很多 馬上就問 什麼顏色 什麼顏色 什麼顏色都這樣啊 事實是如此啊 那為什麼不用官方單位來認定 你來認定那可以定期公布嗎 一個禮拜公布一次沒有啦 那我認定很清楚當然他會公布啊 要查證等等啊啊查證你別那麼急喔 這個政府的國家性格比較嚴謹啊好啦 柯總召 趕快做結論這個是民意非常關注的嘛 你如果說"},{"start":6351.869,"end":6381.391,"text":"陳.陳.陳.陳.陳.陳.陳."},{"start":6381.536,"end":6382.978,"text":"我只是事實的糾正而已阿"},{"start":6400.977,"end":6401.477,"text":"主席通信監察"},{"start":6421.583,"end":6440.508,"text":"特別通訊監察一定要送到高等法院來裁核﹐法院同意了之後才可以進行相關的通訊監察﹐所以過程一定都是依法行政來執行﹐這部分請委員可以放心﹐依法行政﹐第二個委員所提到的重點﹐是對於個案﹐暗網在床部的通訊監察資料的個案﹐"},{"start":6440.968,"end":6463.849,"text":"因為在第一時間 最高檢已經在偵辦這個案子 啟動了司法調查的一個程序那就我們國安單位來講 我們不適合在司法機關已經在審查的個案去做公開的評論我們要拿捏那個尊重司法的憤記那對於司法單位調查的一個過程跟結果 我們行政單位都予以尊重有需要配合的 我們會全力來配合 這大概是第二個要跟各位委員報告跟說明的"},{"start":6465.369,"end":6486.734,"text":"假訊息的查查或查處﹐這個部分有一個原則﹐主要的原則是在於﹐那個假訊息必須是惡、假、害﹐它有惡意的﹐是假的﹐而且對於我們的社會有造成危害的﹐依照這樣的原則﹐我們發現了有問題﹐就會通報到行政單位﹐再由行政單位來判斷說這樣的問題﹐怎麼樣在第一時間來做必要的澄清﹐"},{"start":6487.176,"end":6487.376,"text":"主席主席議員"},{"start":6515.643,"end":6534.249,"text":"好 那通過 147 測案 148 通山 我們就通案處理那 149 測案 那 150 通山院長不好意思 148 它已經改成組決議啦所以沒有通山的這個問題這樣150 我們也說一下好不好"},{"start":6541.685,"end":6541.865,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6556.286,"end":6572.176,"text":"我們也說一下好不好 因為我覺得說目前的那個總統座車已經就是說符合那個也不需要再升級了 阿我們怎麼知道說誰擁著 阿我們的總統參選人侯友宜不需要再升級阿對不是 這國家的問題不是誰當 未來誰當總統"},{"start":6576.638,"end":6578.719,"text":"來接下來就喬委會謝謝主席"},{"start":6609.701,"end":6633.231,"text":"在換班的時候我跟大家報告一件事情117案要更正剛剛組結議宣告的時候是照案通過因為扁案委員有文字修正所以重新宣告117案組結議文字修正通過"},{"start":6635.777,"end":6661.44,"text":"有簽名的嗎?來!交委會來!那我們現在進行交委會那我跟大家報告一下齁交委會徐家欽委員長他有昨天就有打電話來因為他因為公務他今天沒有辦法趕到那請這個副委員長歷史那我介紹一下齁我們的副委員長就阮昭雄先生好請下"},{"start":6662.401,"end":6662.421,"text":"154案"},{"start":6684.11,"end":6693.773,"text":"是不是155、156都是凍結嗎那併委員會啊那併委員會好不好那併委員會因為委員會已經凍結了400多萬對報告主席這個部分委員會沒有凍結委員會沒有凍結我們建議改組決議好 那就改組決議哪一個案"},{"start":6713.524,"end":6721.087,"text":"154到156154154 155 156全部改為拒絕役陳允慶委員同意是不是有說明沒有拒絕市委員什麼事情"},{"start":6733.976,"end":6740.505,"text":"有溝通說明沒有拒絕154 156都改為主決議啦這一般行政AOA都改主決議他事實上這個可以併案一個主決議就可以了吧"},{"start":6751.71,"end":6758.732,"text":"都改為主決議154 155 156都改為主決議157也是改為主決議嗎沒有要撤案啦特別會特別會的問題啦特別會 保留要不要撤案沒有要撤案158他們同意撤10萬"},{"start":6781.454,"end":6785.095,"text":"剪列十萬科目字條剪十萬科目字條再來是159建議改組結議159改組結議沒有意見通過"},{"start":6810.333,"end":6814.836,"text":"160 通3161 動100萬年改組協議 調效的改組協議 沒有意見通過162 改動20萬年動20萬要不要併委會"},{"start":6832.472,"end":6832.612,"text":"163改組結議163改組結議 164動議100萬"},{"start":6849.775,"end":6851.456,"text":"建議改組結議164改組結議165改凍結二十萬年166改組結議167改組結議"},{"start":6877.423,"end":6877.985,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6887.467,"end":6901.409,"text":"那這邊凍結很像那我們說併委員這一半你就併這個嗎?要應戰嗎?是可以啦,但是太生病了再來就是說,他如果說這邊已經凍結440萬那我們再加一個凍結50萬,假設啦他會變成440萬還是490萬?"},{"start":6916.923,"end":6917.063,"text":"好來好來"},{"start":6952.464,"end":6952.644,"text":"167案這張有修對不對"},{"start":6977.52,"end":6983.782,"text":"改為檢列50萬年 沒意見通過公務自行調整再來是168案改組結議 沒意見通過169組結議 有沒有意見 沒意見就照樣通過170組結議 沒有意見 沒意見就照樣通過"},{"start":7003.45,"end":7008.935,"text":"171 文字修正好 OK好 那沒意見就修正通告好好 謝謝 謝謝主委"},{"start":7064.412,"end":7071.56,"text":"跟大家報告一下 黨團要求休息30分鐘 11點半開始開會"},{"start":9603.992,"end":9604.215,"text":"好好好"},{"start":9677.594,"end":9678.536,"text":"院長晚上會到幾點十點嗎你還沒訂嗎好"},{"start":9720.573,"end":9746.329,"text":"各位先進我們現在就繼續開會那繼續開會我先跟大家報告一下我們現在要進行的是行政院主管行政院主管在這裡有兩個部分一個是國家發展委員會一個是公民交易委員會這兩個機關處理完了我們就早上就告一段落"},{"start":9747.748,"end":9760.916,"text":"那這樣這個兩個部位有多少案呢46案所以應該不會太久那下午的時間就看大家尊重各位黨團大家看要幾點開始我們等一下再來商量好不好那現在"},{"start":9773.544,"end":9798.305,"text":"我來介紹一下 列席的這個所長首先介紹 我看主席 主席長 介紹 行政院主席總署 主席長 朱哲平先生國家發展委員會主任委員 國民新先生現在我們就請大家看這個案號 第一案第一案 國發會的總稅處改組決議 沒有意見就通過"},{"start":9804.346,"end":9827.661,"text":"主席 因為我們跟紅委員已經有溝通過他同意把他改成主決議好 那第二案改成主決議沒有見通過第三案也改主決議 沒有見通過第四案我們也跟紅委員溝通過了做了文字上的修正那委員也同意把他改成主決議"},{"start":9828.942,"end":9840.135,"text":"第四案稿子決議 文字修正第五案我們是建議可不可以併委員會的決議第五案併委員會決議辦理"},{"start":9849.537,"end":9850.738,"text":"第六案第七案"},{"start":9864.824,"end":9866.606,"text":"第六案呢?第六案是我們的啊?國發會可以同意嗎?"},{"start":9882.503,"end":9891.849,"text":"第五案保留第六案也是保留第七案 並委員會接辦理如好第八案 並委員會接辦理如好"},{"start":9907.859,"end":9921.712,"text":"第9案這個病毒委員結一半禮沒有意見通過第10案因為通商就不處理通商科目不處理接下來就11案11案11案凍結5%我們病毒委員結一半禮如何沒有意見就通過"},{"start":9929.42,"end":9934.625,"text":"第十二案通商案就不予處理第十三案凍結作為並委員會接辦理"},{"start":9949.2,"end":9976.698,"text":"並委員決議辦理好謝謝第十七案並委員決議辦理如何好好明明一切通過那第十八案簡列一百萬年這個大家意見怎麼樣我們跟那個賴委員有溝通過他是說改成簡列十萬然後我們客戶自行調整客戶自行調整好十八案改為簡列十萬年"},{"start":9980.3,"end":9987.504,"text":"19案通3案就不予處理 20案主結議 有沒有意見22案主結議 22案主結議 23案主結議 24案主結議"},{"start":10001.392,"end":10023.686,"text":"市長有跟委員討論有調整調整三個月我再宣布一下所有的文字如果是一個A兩個A都改為三個A然後專案報告改為書面報告所以有關歐斯蘭的決議我們就文字修正修正通過"},{"start":10025.507,"end":10050.904,"text":"那再來25案主決議 文字修正 是那沒有意見就修正通過26案主決議 遵照辦理好 照案通過27案主決議 遵照辦理好 照案通過 28案主決議這個已經有跟委員討論了這個3個一樣修正3個月改成3個月那個部分好 那就這樣 28案主決議那我們就文字修正 修正通過"},{"start":10052.452,"end":10052.932,"text":"二十九案組結議"},{"start":10072.325,"end":10074.766,"text":"三十案主決議三十二案主決議三十三案主決議"},{"start":10099.793,"end":10100.433,"text":"純照辦理純照辦理純照辦理"},{"start":10121.222,"end":10121.782,"text":"公平交易委員會"},{"start":10164.09,"end":10173.525,"text":"好 我介紹列席的所長 光平教育委員會主任委員李美竹 主委好 謝謝"},{"start":10176.296,"end":10203.514,"text":"來 接下來我們就請大家看 41案改組結議 有沒有意見沒有好 沒有意見 那就通過42案有新華社區邱總召這邊有一個組結議喔 修改的沒有好笑的對 就這樣同意那個改組結議好 42案改組結議 沒有意見就通過44案組結議做文書修正 沒有意見就修正通過44案組結議 有沒有意見"},{"start":10206.823,"end":10207.444,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10224.791,"end":10239.057,"text":"我們早上就到這樣經濟部我們就留到下午開始經濟部主管的就下午開始那現在請大家決定一下下午是要12點開始還是12點半還是要1點1點好了1點好了1點好了 早一點弄"},{"start":10252.287,"end":10261.672,"text":"好 要回來啦好 1點好 1點1點10分1點10分1點10分1點15分好安眠到11點齁好 OK"},{"start":10284.19,"end":10288.919,"text":"主席長同意不同意1點15分繼續開會謝謝大家"},{"start":15497.776,"end":15524.561,"text":"好各位先進我們現在就來開始進行下午的協商下午的協商最主要就是現在開始就要針對經濟部主管的部分那我現在來介紹列席的所長首先介紹經濟部部長王美花女士"},{"start":15527.034,"end":15546.646,"text":"還有龍業部主席長我們還是重新介紹一下行政院主席長請大家就看47案院長與其各位先進"},{"start":15556.021,"end":15585.263,"text":"老柯 老柯聽到沒有 老柯我先講我的結論啦齁賴世寶的提案一個都不妥協 我通通保留 去 去 去標決原因 你先不要插話英文吉祥啦這個王美花部長 官威太大他找底下的人來協商 跟我們講什麼話他說 兩個KPI第一個KPI第一個KPI 撤案"},{"start":15587.247,"end":15600.472,"text":"他叫他部下叫立委撤案 第一個KPI 第二個KPI只能寫主決議 一毛錢都不能刪 這樣我是不是寫三三 王部長有沒有講得出話"},{"start":15601.903,"end":15602.563,"text":"我跟委員報告我完全沒有這樣子事"},{"start":15618.873,"end":15640.6,"text":"所以是他們說謊我對著麥克風我完全沒有這樣子是你可以發誓我可以發誓所以他們的不同的署長都講說我們倆拜託你要跟我們考他說拜託啊我們部長給我們的KPI只能屬決議只能叫測案你沒有這樣做的話我回去會被檢討他說被檢討好幾個署長這樣講"},{"start":15645.379,"end":15653.944,"text":"這樣就是用人情攻勢他等於拿一個人肉盾牌把署長當作人肉盾牌所以已經當然他已經發誓了"},{"start":15660.778,"end":15681.244,"text":"外面對你的評價是很假啦人家說科長當部長來做你工業也不是很懂商業也不是很懂官威很大啊哇居然幾千億的預算一毛錢都不能砍欸那是協商什麼所以沒有 我的主張 我的主張我沒有 我的主張我就這樣決定了齁"},{"start":15682.884,"end":15683.985,"text":"所以每一個署長都要抓他屁股 他們說謊"},{"start":15712.243,"end":15735.388,"text":"他們的首長 非常 非常誠懇的去辦公室溝通那怎麼說我不知道 但是 但是 完全一個就是寫主決議 一個就是 一個就是撤案 要寫上什麼啦沒有啦 這 要寫上什麼你去找別人 找別的案子就好了沒有啦 這我不相信 因為兩個差 差異太大了你不要關係太大 你不要關係太大"},{"start":15735.928,"end":15744.115,"text":"啊 官位太大了 你這官位或者你用怎麼講 或者你透過你的人去傳遞你嘴巴沒有講 底下你的幕僚 你的誠信要去講"},{"start":15745.441,"end":15763.029,"text":"你老委員嘛,你不容易受傷我內心很脆弱一個立委黨黨怎麼沒有面子一毛錢都不能刪欸幾千你的預算一毛錢都不能刪你剛才講的他也回答了我們大家要冷靜一點你就先保留我們第二輪再講我全部保留"},{"start":15773.453,"end":15779.358,"text":"我全部保留 我覺得這樣的協商沒有意義啦齁阿你沒有理睬我 我很少來這裏講啦 我的選舉我沒有要去試試這個是要討一個公道 替立委整一點面子我們立委被誇衰小咧 誇衰敗啊我也是立委啊你也叫我誇衰敗 不能刪 都不能刪阿你又講 我不會這樣講啦部長當得這麼大"},{"start":15797.602,"end":15799.303,"text":"賴委員 報告一下啦 因為我們預算就是要繼續進行賴委員的我們尊重"},{"start":15813.955,"end":15816.256,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":15829.46,"end":15830.481,"text":"經濟部主管的部分"},{"start":15855.021,"end":15869.031,"text":"這個51案齁51案這個51案是不是凍結10%是不是可以並委員會決議辦理因為委員會凍結蠻多的喔等一下柯團這個有沒有統算阿柯團有委員辦法這個地方那個委員會多少報告主席齁這個項目的話那個民眾黨黨團已經蓋章了改組決議"},{"start":15882.732,"end":15883.813,"text":"科技專案是有部分違範費不是全部"},{"start":15912.896,"end":15914.217,"text":"科專有的是委辦"},{"start":15943.002,"end":15944.104,"text":"五十九案並沒有接辦理,沒有見通過"},{"start":15963.399,"end":15985.306,"text":"那60案這個是凍結20% 這個是不是併委員接辦理好不好 60案併委員接辦理沒有先通過那61案也併委員接辦理 可以嗎沒有先通過那6263就通3 我們就暫不處理64 65 64凍結10%有沒有意見"},{"start":15992.407,"end":16012.321,"text":"六四的部分因為是本部職安聯防跟工防演練的重要預算所以建議改組決議改組決議好六四改組決議明天通過六十五六十五的部分的話早上的部分有個保留那個就賴委員的那我們就暫保暫保保留了暫保"},{"start":16013.649,"end":16032.723,"text":"好那66凍結200萬年有沒有意見改組決議好了建議修改文字改組決議好那改組決議文字修改沒有意見通過再來是67案凍結10%改組決議改組決議啊那個委員會委員會有凍嗎沒有凍"},{"start":16042.438,"end":16054.806,"text":"委員會沒有動這一段數字很少2925萬元那個是資訊系統所以那個經費也非常少改組決議好了好 那就改組決議 沒見通過68案 凍結100萬元是不是也改組決議沒有沒有 68案我說明一下68案我們民眾黨團這邊提這個是雜糧發展基金會現在的問題那這個地方我們才提凍100萬不行嗎"},{"start":16072.958,"end":16079.743,"text":"可以啦 但是不是不可以好 那就照案嘛好 那就一百萬是吧好 那免費券通過喔好 69案改組結議 免費券通過好70案 凍結10%對 一樣的嘛 改組結議好不好好"},{"start":16091.971,"end":16091.991,"text":"改組結議"},{"start":16114.486,"end":16129.767,"text":"七十四案就改組結議,沒有意見通過七十五案也改組結議七十六案也改組結議,沒有意見通過七十七改組結議,沒有意見通過"},{"start":16130.948,"end":16147.749,"text":"七十八改組結議沒有先通過七十九改組結議沒有先通過八十那個邱委員你改組結議這個同一項目的國安事業管理只有三千多萬而已沒關係這個地方凍結不行嗎改組結議好了"},{"start":16148.59,"end":16148.93,"text":"剛才已經有說那個動"},{"start":16168.582,"end":16170.523,"text":"68案處理68案就是剛才就是有凍結凍結一百萬年嘛就是68案合併凍結一百萬這樣對不對那就這樣"},{"start":16197.821,"end":16204.883,"text":"併68案好來81案凍結10萬元10萬元10萬元而已也不行喔這個凍結10萬元而且386年"},{"start":16219.804,"end":16220.244,"text":"主席有簽改組決議"},{"start":16232.101,"end":16259.059,"text":"主結議好主結議沒有意見通過82案公立小委員的就凍結凍結15%我們病毒委員會結議辦理好沒有意見就病毒委員會結議辦理那83案改凍結100萬年沒有意見通過84通385通3我們就到時候病案處理86改主結議"},{"start":16262.821,"end":16279.631,"text":"85是那個要增資台電的1100億的部分 是不是排除在通商裡面等一下85我們是不是已經改組決議了沒有 沒改組決議啦85改組決議好了那它不是通商啦"},{"start":16280.552,"end":16281.272,"text":"改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議"},{"start":16309.878,"end":16321.165,"text":"好 照案通過 90 主決議好 照案通過 91 的主決議好 照案通過 92 主決議92 的主決議做文字修正 那沒問題就修正通過好 那 93 主決議好 照案通過"},{"start":16337.455,"end":16337.896,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":16342.915,"end":16372.137,"text":"九十四是不是有文字修正是 那個委員已經簽了九十四文字修正通過九十四文字修正九十四的文字的主決議文字修正那沒有意見就修正通過九十五的主決議就是有做文字修正文字修正那我們九十五的主決議做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過九十六主決議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":16374.409,"end":16386.895,"text":"97 主決議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過98 主決議有做文書修正 沒意見就修正通過好99 主決議 有沒有意見遵照辦理好 召喚通過9100 主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過"},{"start":16395.705,"end":16396.466,"text":"我們建議修正文字"},{"start":16416.477,"end":16437.266,"text":"在那個第三行有部分修正然後最後面是改成評估把核能納入我國能源選項的可行性105組決議做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過106組決議106我們最後也做一點文字修正這個不是只有用電大戶所以是請能源署針對太陽光電結合建物"},{"start":16437.706,"end":16462.086,"text":"提出相關安全規範好106主席做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過107主席遵照辦理好召喚通過108主席遵照辦理好召喚通過109主席遵照辦理好召喚通過10110主席遵照辦理好沒有意見召喚通過111主席要調整一下文字要修正"},{"start":16464.778,"end":16486.943,"text":"文字修正沒有意見就修正通過1、2主席也是文字修正沒有意見就修正通過1、1、3好沒有意見就照案通過1、1、4文字修正好1、1、4主席做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過1、1、5"},{"start":16490.31,"end":16518.104,"text":"也是文字修正好15主席願意做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過16主席願意好 召喚通過17 遵照辦理好 沒意見召喚通過18遵照辦理好 沒意見召喚通過19遵照辦理好 沒意見召喚通過120遵照辦理好 沒意見召喚通過121遵照辦理好 沒意見召喚通過122做部分文字修正"},{"start":16519.349,"end":16545.388,"text":"做文字修正好沒有意見就修正通過好那123文字修正好沒有意見就修正文字修正通過124遵照辦理好沒有意見就召喚通過好125組結議文字有修正已經簽名好125組結議做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過126文字修正嘿好"},{"start":16546.601,"end":16554.227,"text":"沒有意見就文書修正通過127組協議沒有意見就召喚通過128組協議那沒有意見就召喚通過127通過召喚通過就沒有保留了"},{"start":16566.731,"end":16567.452,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16593.211,"end":16599.093,"text":"副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員"},{"start":16620.397,"end":16629.259,"text":"132 也是保留﹖賴委員的﹖暫時保留133 併爐的決議辦理沒有意見通過134 改組決議沒有意見通過135 併爐的決議辦理沒有意見通過136 改組決議沒有意見通過137 測案138 沒有意見就"},{"start":16645.316,"end":16674.377,"text":"142 凍結10%該組決議"},{"start":16676.324,"end":16676.707,"text":"來組協議明天先通過"},{"start":16678.459,"end":16685.822,"text":"好143凍結10%改組結議沒人先改組結議沒人先通過好144改組結議沒人先通過好145通商就暫不處理146檢列160不處理賴司法委員的我們就保留暫時保留147凍結10%改組結議改組結議好沒人先通過好我忘記"},{"start":16710.259,"end":16728.953,"text":"148閉路人節辦理沒有意見通過149 150 151全部是通商項目我們就暫不處理152組結議做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過153組結議有沒有意見就照辦理那就照案通過154改組結議沒有意見通過"},{"start":16737.453,"end":16739.055,"text":"155 156 157 都是通商 我們就暫不處理 158 凍結10%159 也是改組決議 免費簽通過"},{"start":16760.68,"end":16760.7,"text":"161案"},{"start":16789.565,"end":16815.742,"text":"164凍結10%"},{"start":16816.122,"end":16816.582,"text":"165 主決議166 主決議167 主決議168 凍結10%"},{"start":16842.765,"end":16858.073,"text":"委員長我們這部分已經把資料送到委員辦公室送了以後怎麼樣今天改組結議組結議啦改好了嗎還沒有因為委員只要我們送到辦公室這樣子這樣就改組結議好這樣就改組結議好民運縣組結議通過"},{"start":16866.584,"end":16873.286,"text":"那這個169凍結10%也改組結1好了沒有意見就通過170凍結10%也改組結1沒有意見通過好不好那171凍結1就照案通過172改組結1沒有意見通過173凍結1000萬元陳總召在這裡來"},{"start":16895.97,"end":16897.251,"text":"174 175 都是通商項目 176 凍結四分之一"},{"start":16924.123,"end":16935.496,"text":"主席報告,因為這個是依照人種的標準去編列我們河川分贖章的特指費,所以我們建議這個案子能不能測案"},{"start":16938.836,"end":16961.051,"text":"176這是特別會啦特別會好 策案好 謝謝來 謝謝策案177改凍結百分之一沒有見通過跟主席報告 這個能不能並委員會決議不是已經都講好也簽名邱總召在這裡 來對啦"},{"start":16963.084,"end":16967.486,"text":"這個就是照本來的就好了177 178這個都已經寫好了也簽名了都簽名了177凍結1%沒有意見通過178凍結1%沒有意見通過179改組結議沒有意見通過好那180180怎麼樣"},{"start":16989.577,"end":16991.859,"text":"181改主決議182改主決議183改主決議"},{"start":17017.13,"end":17017.93,"text":"186、187都是通商項目"},{"start":17038.131,"end":17038.871,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":17056.86,"end":17066.327,"text":"改為主決議 免預先通過191 併通3 項目處理192 改主決議 免預先通過193 改主決議 免預先通過194 凍結500萬年好 這個跟陳委員協調過了就是改為這個併主決議就是改為主決議好 主決議那免預先通過195這個賴市保委員的我們就暫時保留齁好"},{"start":17086.323,"end":17092.986,"text":"196 凍結10%這個建議改為主決議辦理好改為主決議沒有意見通過197、198、199都是通商項目並通商案辦在一起處理2000主決議這個遵照辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":17108.444,"end":17115.485,"text":"201 主決議 遵照辦理202 主決議 遵照辦理203 主決議 遵照辦理204 主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過205 主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過206 屬於通商207"},{"start":17134.895,"end":17138.597,"text":"主席報告因為這個案子是委員希望我們找超商業者解決物流車停車問題我們8月有開過會那因為這筆錢是做公司登記的那個業務沒有辦法停頓是不是委員這邊不要凍結我們預算"},{"start":17160.851,"end":17181.27,"text":"好 邱董昭麻煩重新考慮2028我們的這個案就是說涉及的是說這個運送貨物停車的問題不是只有司機跟物流車要分擔就是說讓這些業者本身也應該要共同承擔"},{"start":17182.199,"end":17195.897,"text":"那這個問題就是說這一些不管是說超商啦超市量販業者等等之類的那你在日本的話基本上你如果要設立一個超商的話你是要去有一個自己的停貨車的停車位嗎"},{"start":17197.419,"end":17218.871,"text":"因為你可以想像說你一旦超商設下去之後每天各種不同的溫層的送冷凍食品的、送報紙的、送熱飲的這些熱食的東西的那每天至少會5到7次嘛那你如果說你連一個貨車停車格都沒有的情況之下那大部分都是在違規停車的"},{"start":17220.532,"end":17222.132,"text":"《中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案》"},{"start":17239.877,"end":17265.229,"text":"這個造勢責任的歸屬,所以這是非常不公平的啦所以我們希望說應該這一個新設的零售業要把這個卸貨交通計畫納入到商業登記室的審查條件然後去研議說未來就這個部分的話他能夠有一些這個連帶責任或等等等等之類的然後提及一個書面報告,所以我們"},{"start":17266.209,"end":17282.748,"text":"所以希望說應該去做這個部分那其實之前也有跟經濟部商業司討論過那這種案件在這個你現在也升格為屬那在這種案件在台灣各個角落裡面是層出不窮"},{"start":17284.069,"end":17297.683,"text":"所以應該是不能夠讓這些超商全台灣光是四大超商就有一萬家不能夠讓這一些超商然後把這個經濟的外部性由社會來承擔這是非常不公平的"},{"start":17298.922,"end":17310.389,"text":"那不是委員那是不是因為這筆預算是做公司登記委員是不是不要凍結那麼多就是這樣啦就是你們那個加強研議辦理啦然後改組決議啦好不好還是說這個併委員會的這個委員會沒有凍結委員會沒有凍結喔對決議啦選字因為那個錢齁是給那個六都還有中辦來辦公司登記啦那個錢是比較"},{"start":17324.156,"end":17324.336,"text":"公務委員．．．"},{"start":17347.521,"end":17370.31,"text":"應該不是只有經濟部能夠解決這個問題因為這其實就是說看現象就是說一般在他設立這個操商的時候你每天一定有五到七天會送回車嘛那在這個狀況之下你設立了這個車子之後如果假設你連一個貨車停車格都沒有的時候你每天就是設立一個店然後就創造了五到七次的違規停車"},{"start":17372.01,"end":17397.592,"text":"但是因為商業登記或公司登記其實都是書面審查那委員要的是要實質說他有停車格才可以那這個恐怕不是由商業登記法這邊來處理但是部長我的意思就是說因為像在日本他要設立這個商店的時候他就自己要有一個停車位嘛那你可以在未來新設的零售業要把"},{"start":17397.972,"end":17419.453,"text":"他的卸貨交通計劃納入到商業登記室的審查條件你可以自己買一個停車格但是你要告訴大家你的車跟規劃就是說要停在哪嘛像日本有時候的狀況是說那在這附近比如說有幾十公尺外有一個停車場那他的車就停在那邊他再用小貨車把他送過來"},{"start":17422.079,"end":17444.277,"text":"而不是說像我們現在的這個狀況所以其實在臺灣各個角落裡面到處都在發生這種事情剛才署長有提到8月份有找他們來開過一次會那這個部分我們會再找包括交通部等等一起再來討論這個怎麼樣去克服這個問題那我們就改用組結議處理啦好 明天見就通過好 209案組結議有沒有見沒有見就照案通過"},{"start":17450.342,"end":17452.763,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":17473.909,"end":17498.131,"text":"我們就召喚通過在215的總稅出改組決議沒有見通過216的這一部分像主席跟委員報告有跟委員辦公室主任報告過那是不是能夠改成組決議你們這邊能不能就是你們委員會有沒有這一個項目有凍結嗎"},{"start":17499.642,"end":17499.862,"text":"委員提供資料"},{"start":17529.353,"end":17529.893,"text":"改組決議217改組決議218組決議遵照辦理"},{"start":17556.857,"end":17556.977,"text":"憲議並委員會決議辦理"},{"start":17586.035,"end":17586.256,"text":"221主決議221主決議221通過"},{"start":17607.998,"end":17618.161,"text":"通山 通山項目併案處理226改組決議沒有意見通過227通山也是併通山項目一起處理28 29 230 231 232 233 234 235 236都是併通山項目一起再處理237組決議"},{"start":17634.54,"end":17659.567,"text":"沒意見 照案通過238主決議順道辦理沒意見 照案通過239順道辦理沒意見 照案通過240主決議240有文字修正委員同意沒有意見就修正通過241主決議有修正文字委員同意沒意見就修正通過"},{"start":17662.312,"end":17664.654,"text":"接下來就農業部農業部再來就財政"},{"start":17713.619,"end":17714.92,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17738.087,"end":17749.723,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17762.873,"end":17763.293,"text":"請大家看242案"},{"start":17791.67,"end":17795.432,"text":"22改組決議沒有見通過23改組決議沒有見通過244改組決議沒有見通過245併通3處理246改組決議沒有見通過我們等一下好了"},{"start":17820.578,"end":17821.059,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17860.385,"end":17869.95,"text":"來啊啦,規定這次要處理啊不來了?"},{"start":17889.326,"end":17890.047,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17919.898,"end":17920.359,"text":"現在是二十四開始"},{"start":17946.704,"end":17959.914,"text":"25通3就併案處理246就改組結議,沒有意見通過247通3就併案處理,併通3處理28改組結議,沒有意見通過249通3就併案處理250改組結議,沒有意見通過"},{"start":17976.183,"end":17995.276,"text":"251改組決議免預先通過252我們是不是可以見情委免以凍結然後改組決議文字修正這特別費的部分保留保留你要增加什麼什麼增加252保留"},{"start":18001.116,"end":18023.815,"text":"二五三二五三是不是也可以改組決議然後做做文字的修正因為最主要農業管理是我們很多的農營移蓄的相關的一般的營運還有一些訓練的部分好 院長不是喔 院長這個反對因為這個涉及到是說你說這一個雞蛋有黑市亂象的問題"},{"start":18025.616,"end":18045.075,"text":"結果呢 這個有三種管道 第一個是說 行政院籌組法務部主責的物價聯合稽查小組 扣過刑法251條結果 到11月底前 因為雞蛋這個案件而遭罰的案件是零件 沒辦法"},{"start":18046.577,"end":18070.046,"text":"第二個是用農業部依據這個農產品市場交易法第6條而受第35條遭開罰的案件有幾件還是零件第三個是用公平會的防制人為操縱物價專案小組然後設有這個民眾來檢舉等等之類的結果民眾檢舉的案件是188件成功開罰的案件也是零件"},{"start":18070.986,"end":18087.72,"text":"所以顯示你這個根本完全都沒有任何的成效那這個是嚴重失職的啦你今天你覺得雞蛋的價格然後有可能有黑市的亂象等等之類的那你有這些管道"},{"start":18088.42,"end":18110.325,"text":"結果到最後你不要說這個有比較少的成效你的成效幾乎是零那你成效幾乎是零的情況之下你當然要去徹底的檢討嘛因為老百姓為了雞蛋這個事情苦不堪言了更何況你後來還搞出這些有的沒的去巴西買雞蛋等等這樣的狀況"},{"start":18113.366,"end":18138.231,"text":"人民交給你的是稅金這個是人民的血汗錢是要教你真的可以去努力的去做事情那連這樣的事情都嚴重的失職有三個管道那洪洪輝輝說有三個管道結果搞不好連一個連半間都沒有這是非常不應該的啊所以就這個部分的話我們會堅持這樣的一個案也希望說農業部要徹底的去檢討保留啊來"},{"start":18144.079,"end":18144.339,"text":"254委員已經同意改為主決議255"},{"start":18172.488,"end":18174.97,"text":"這一次雞蛋到底總共花了多少錢"},{"start":18196.056,"end":18219.839,"text":"現在我們因為整個的一個基幹有一部分還在處理當中那初步如果說全部的一些預算如果說連包括中華續產會本身自己處理的部分大概將近到快十億但是現在目前為止都還沒有任何的一筆經費向我們農業部來請求我們的補助哇 真厲害啊"},{"start":18221.072,"end":18235.845,"text":"沒有跟農委會申請,那誰出的錢不是,因為他本身我們在相關的那個續產會在處理的時候他有跟那個農業金庫做貸款,做融資貸款的部分那他用融資貸款的部分先去做處理"},{"start":18237.483,"end":18238.323,"text":"未來我們會根據相關的規定 如果說他"},{"start":18252.791,"end":18252.931,"text":"政府採購法規範補貼"},{"start":18275.179,"end":18295.401,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18296.867,"end":18298.208,"text":"公務預算部分．．．"},{"start":18320.614,"end":18323.754,"text":"應該佔大概十幾%到20%左右大概是這個數字大概十幾%到20%左右那可能還要再精準的話是不是可以廢後再給委員"},{"start":18343.686,"end":18346.548,"text":"那個代理部長 是這個事情啊 浪費了這麼多公帑還影響2300萬的食糧問題要不要請省紀部去查賬 必要時候追究財務責任不過我跟委員報告齁 省紀部已經在清查我們的整個的一個相關的雞蛋的一些"},{"start":18366.86,"end":18393.964,"text":"一些相關的費用的一個支出你同不同意必要的時候追究財務責任我想以我們農業部本身在我當代理部長之後我在第二個禮拜就有請我們部裡面的專案的包括會計處去做相關的的一些查證那到目前為止我們並沒有發現任何不法的行為只是在數據的加總是有一些我沒有不法你一太大一太大的公開招標就沒有公開招標阿沒有"},{"start":18394.104,"end":18394.204,"text":"主席"},{"start":18408.973,"end":18429.02,"text":"中央市長會自己有錢是嗎 有沒有錢他自己有資金 我剛才說的不要贊成喔 這些液態彈的破 一塊錢都不能補助喔他如果補助我們不能超過二分之一他如果說沒有依政府採購法的話 我們不能超過二分之一另外那超私啊 超私資本有多少"},{"start":18430.884,"end":18445.608,"text":"本身的資本50萬 但是超支上次也講了不是 它本身的存摺 當時我們已經公開了它的存摺 它存摺裡面就有6千多萬然後它第一筆的當款也是它自己付的有將近10千多萬存摺跟你資本額都兩碼事啊"},{"start":18449.969,"end":18451.209,"text":"黃宏慶的登記交公司50萬可以借錢嗎"},{"start":18475.672,"end":18487.805,"text":"董事長你是王永慶啊 或者是王永慶啊你不要用王永慶啊 你不要 對不對借錢你不要跟我變我不是跟你變啊 我是"},{"start":18489.122,"end":18507.938,"text":"希望你講短一點就好啦因為這個題目講很久了啦一個早上都沒有講話咧阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席"},{"start":18518.465,"end":18526.793,"text":"主席總理在這裡就說你看這個我們農業部他就把所有有這個協商有開章全部印在一起"},{"start":18541.772,"end":18543.974,"text":"二五五案修正文字改組決議這案不能接受就保留"},{"start":18571.309,"end":18571.589,"text":"二五五案"},{"start":18590.672,"end":18607.822,"text":"其實我們這邊只是一個凍結而已齁那你們把這個進口雞蛋的這個廢棄方式的這個說清楚我跟委員說明齁就是我們整個報廢的大概5000多萬顆本身我們已經有招標了那招標也是用政府採購的方式去做招標"},{"start":18608.742,"end":18638.162,"text":"招標的部分總共有66家本身有資格去把這些報廢的雞蛋做成堆肥那目前為止我們大概12月17號本身會再開標這個部分你們現在都沒有標成功阿對全部都留標了所以你們這一案就是很簡單嘛你們就是如果能真的做得好你們招標能夠成功然後你們怎麼招標因為這個是我們拿那麼多工廠去買的啦那你這個案子的話你不能接受凍結的話那我們就保留啦"},{"start":18638.642,"end":18639.243,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":18655.885,"end":18668.155,"text":"你這個基本上這個農地跟農地資源盤查作業等等這些土對於這個不管是說掌握農地的這個狀況是非常重要的但是因為你的狀況這個跟"},{"start":18671.717,"end":18693.163,"text":"因為你這個彙整的時間差然後跟各部會建制溝通等等導致說盤查結果不一定跟當年度的實際成果一致所以這個本來就是應該要去強化的所以我們是希望說你針對這個農地及農地資源盤查作業去精進然後這個才凍結5%"},{"start":18696.985,"end":18705.436,"text":"有一個報告之後經濟委員會有同意時的動之我們是不是可以就是說我們該組協議然後我們提一個經濟的報告"},{"start":18709.46,"end":18717.707,"text":"我跟委員報告我們特別在農航所買了兩架飛機那現在整個農地的盤查因為裡面的作物箱非常多所以我們會用我們的飛機去做航拍以外然後也會結合內政部的這些固定的變異點然後去做相關的一個勾機跟稽查"},{"start":18736.042,"end":18756.797,"text":"同樣我們有18個資料庫就是人民的資料庫我們也會做互相的交互比對所以事實上我們現在已經針對農業部相關的資料做數位化那未來我想我們會有一個非常精進的那我們希望說提一個專案報告提一個書面報告向委員會說明好啦好啦"},{"start":18759.403,"end":18759.904,"text":"水保計畫不公開"},{"start":18769.75,"end":18791.596,"text":"現在很多案子你們都不公開 到底哪邊變了怎麼樣 你們也沒辦法比對然後都黑箱啊 所以我在這裡四年叫你們公開 到現在都不公開我跟委員說明一下齁 整個水保計畫裡面的這些還在調查的部分齁 我們依法是沒有辦法說還在調查沒有被確認的時候 就把相關的資訊公開 我們一定要"},{"start":18792.276,"end":18792.736,"text":"257就保留嗎"},{"start":18818.717,"end":18822.981,"text":"那請看258改組決議沒有意見通過259改組決議沒有意見通過260通3261並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過262改組決議沒有意見通過263並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":18834.512,"end":18834.912,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":18863.683,"end":18865.264,"text":"剪列180萬剪列40萬剪列40萬科目自行調整"},{"start":18894.927,"end":18920.388,"text":"捲列40萬年 客戶執行調整沒有建築通過那280那280是不是也可以能夠改成組結一 做文字修正那最主要是農業發展裡面 最主要是補充基金還有一些冷鏈 現在正在執行的冷鏈跟一些動保的收容的部分 那建築沒有建築 改組結一沒有建築通過 就這樣 好來"},{"start":18922.049,"end":18949.757,"text":"那281撤案282改組結議沒有見通過283改組結議沒有見通過284改組結議沒有見通過院長不好意思280啦280這個也是雞蛋的那我們知道說你如果說要去這個處理像現在的雞蛋的這個短缺的問題的話那勢必就是說你的生產力啦要能夠提升嘛"},{"start":18950.777,"end":18970.128,"text":"那這個我國每日每雞蛋﹐這個雞蛋蛋率為0.52﹐遠低於德國的等等﹐日本、以色列等等﹐這個就不再贅述了﹐所以就這部分的話﹐當然就是需要去對這個﹐蛋機的產業的轉型﹐那有很重要的這個影響"},{"start":18974.151,"end":18993.23,"text":"農業部也編列了10.5億作爲升級秦社的改建那你想說每年 預估每年可輔導66家但是光第一年就有212家申請所以基本上第一個當然就是說爲什麼會出現這樣的一個雞蛋短缺的這個問題顯見"},{"start":18995.572,"end":19009.023,"text":"政府並沒有去對這個正式這個產業轉型的這個需求那你變成是說你農業發展基金本來就是應該去做這個部分但是反而利用這個農業發展基金去採購他國的這個農產品那這個是這個本末導致也跟農發基金"},{"start":19018.01,"end":19042.135,"text":"他所設立的目的完全是不一樣來支持本土的這個 農民的這個角度是完全背道而馳的那我一開始的時候我也是注意到說為什麼農會發展基金會去用來做這個所謂的外國雞蛋的採購這個部分跟他本來設立的基金的目的完全顛倒所以才注意到這個雞蛋採購的這個部分所以我們是希望"},{"start":19043.26,"end":19058.642,"text":"要求這個農業部對這個農業發展基金設立的核心精神也就是說支持本土的這個農民這個角度然後呢要求就是說你應該要去"},{"start":19060.504,"end":19088.056,"text":"回到這個農業發展基金設立的目的﹖然後真的去用這一筆錢﹖去應用這個資金﹖這個資源﹖然後另外一個當然就是說﹖最重要的﹖你應該要去正視﹖而且要去更努力的去做這個產業的轉型﹖跟升級的這個部分﹖所以希望能夠減劣5%﹖然後回到這個基金設置的核心精神"},{"start":19088.736,"end":19088.756,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":19110.981,"end":19111.261,"text":"公務委員．答案"},{"start":19132.985,"end":19140.316,"text":"到達執行的部分然後是不是也可以請委員同意我們用主決議的方式我們會去加強相關的這些作為的一個檢視"},{"start":19142.841,"end":19146.725,"text":"保留285改組結議沒有見通過286改組結議沒有見通過287測案288改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":19163.402,"end":19172.937,"text":"二八九二八九的部分因為農民福利的相關的經費是法律義務支出的部分是不是可以建議梅雨凍結好那"},{"start":19176.112,"end":19201.833,"text":"其實是才動一萬兩千塊啦那主要就是說這個所謂的暫行條例那已經說暫行但是已經27年沒有去修正啦所以就這部分的話你是不是要去修法或者是說盤點整個相關的制度後續的發展那如果你要改組決議的話我也沒有意見只是說你應該是要去正視這個問題"},{"start":19204.876,"end":19221.233,"text":"289改組結議沒有意見通過290組結議有沒有意見沒有意見 遵照辦理好 照案通過291遵照辦理好 照案通過292建請修正相關的文字來 文章修正通過"},{"start":19224.94,"end":19231.163,"text":"293 遵照辦理 294 文字修正295 組結一 遵照辦理296 文字修正297 文字修正 298 組結一 文字修正"},{"start":19251.696,"end":19266.147,"text":"二九九組結議建起我們相關的文字修正好啊那沒有意見修正通告三零零遵照辦理等一下二九九來沒關係二九九修正寫一封就啊寫一封委員的"},{"start":19273.76,"end":19275.522,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19286.863,"end":19311.925,"text":"我要把它裁測 裁判處長會 你們贊成喔不是不是 我們做文字修正就是說文字修正啦我跟文說明喔 續產會本身齁 我們內部檢討我們真的是要去加強它的一個管理效能 跟提升它的效率所以我們在文字修正裡面就會說 我們會去加強 農業部會加強輔導然後提升它的行政效率 以利我們協助強化續產業的一個發展"},{"start":19314.491,"end":19334.118,"text":"市長會是民國89已經成立的 它是依畜牧法成立的部分那我幾年成立的89保留啊好 299保留齁好 來300有沒有意見 遵照辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":19336.681,"end":19341.684,"text":"301 遵照辦理302 見請修正文字303 遵照辦理304 見請修正文字305 見請修正文字304的部分"},{"start":19365.175,"end":19390.927,"text":"這邊我們修正的部分是有關於就是國人才發現原來我國續產會相關談價條約工作並非農業部畜牧師負責那事實上我們農業部的畜牧師就是負責整個畜生產業所以我們把這個字把它劃掉續產會預算是有送來沒有所謂這個當然不受立法院監督"},{"start":19392.347,"end":19394.069,"text":"304 保留305 組結議建議文字修正明日建議修正通過306 遵照辦理"},{"start":19412.313,"end":19417.694,"text":"307 遵照辦理 308 遵照辦理 309 遵照辦理 310 遵照辦理 312 遵照辦理 313 遵照辦理 314 修正文字"},{"start":19448.56,"end":19469.685,"text":"那我們的修正的部分第一個部分就是我們所屬編列的經費他有物質這邊我們修正然後後面寫說我們過去曾讀後特定媒體衍生爭議那這個部分事實上我們所有的這些媒體我們都是以相關的的招標的方式去做處理的方式"},{"start":19470.964,"end":19476.386,"text":"我先不跟你說了 等一下旁邊那個主席長 審計部還有多少錢沒有讓你轉銷4500萬對不對 目前是3600萬你什麼團員黨還有議法 爭議大勒 我跟你講喔到時候他跟陳其中主委球場 怎麼沒有爭議 爭議可大勒"},{"start":19496.209,"end":19501.975,"text":"院長 有那個政府機關花了錢 審計部不讓他轉銷這個農業部 成績很高他說這個沒有爭議 爭議可大"},{"start":19507.006,"end":19507.806,"text":"代理部長你做公務員多久?"},{"start":19537.657,"end":19560.628,"text":"應該34年了我比你長啊你要找那個委員太不容易要找那些委員要偏綠的或者你能掌控的這太容易了你那一環當然一環啊還有另外喔 審計部在看我們的時候是因為科目的關係而不是說我們讀後特定的媒體的關係代理部長問一下"},{"start":19562.657,"end":19587.669,"text":"那個主席長坐在旁邊了我現在講話對他沒有禮貌你們那個以前的主席主任都不太想幹你知不知道都想調離開你知不知道欸!會議處長你不要講私底下再講很多人啦 前一陣 前幾陣都不是都很短對不對 主席長都坐多久"},{"start":19591.036,"end":19614.233,"text":"你不要跟人家閒聊啦 要怎麼跟人家閒聊阿都落台了 要不然又有人開槍 你說到他的屁屁臭文字修正 玻璃 好不好陳吉仲文出逼 已經落台了 要不然又說了 這樣就好了好 他已經下台就算了沒有沒有 這個要保留"},{"start":19619.861,"end":19623.623,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":19638.188,"end":19638.869,"text":"好 那就召喚通過"},{"start":19654.411,"end":19672.728,"text":"3、2、4 組結一做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過3、2、5 組結一做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過3、2、6 組結一做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過3、2、7 測案3、2、8 組結一做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過3、2、9 組結一有沒有意見沒有意見就照案通過"},{"start":19675.77,"end":19677.112,"text":"331剛剛那個代部長我有請問譬如說現在"},{"start":19688.095,"end":19688.736,"text":"水保局說明一下"},{"start":19714.767,"end":19720.965,"text":"目前水保開發計畫依技術規範會來做相關的一個審查它對挖防邊坡都有一些限制"},{"start":19721.328,"end":19721.648,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":19747.995,"end":19748.798,"text":"國土保安用地被破壞"},{"start":19754.907,"end":19783.605,"text":"我跟委員說明就是有關於這個波地的部分因為波度的改變那其實我們已經配合了國土規劃的農一農二農三特別是農三的部分那有一部分的縣市政府把把那個國保區把它劃成農三然後有一部分把農三劃出去所以我們也非常關注這件事情那上個月我們也開會就是怎麼樣針對波地的這些管理特別是超限利用的部分我們一定會去加強相關的一個督察"},{"start":19784.325,"end":19808.685,"text":"這個部分麻煩你們要審慎的去檢討怎麼樣包括水保計畫要公開還有剛剛提到的不然我們真的是只好去告你們獨子了不然真的沒辦法了謝偉銘提醒我一下我們有簽這個案代部長可不可以就是找個時間來討論一下看你們怎麼去"},{"start":19810.433,"end":19811.574,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":19828.234,"end":19836.215,"text":"歐巴靈 歐巴靈 那個是不是 要求選制總召在這裡嗎我們那個整個農業發展基金 你看它的情色 那個產業要升級轉型這要給他們支持啦 你給他們建立之後 頂多他們派做事情啦 應該是改為主決議 然後要求他們去遵照整個我們農業發展基金的一個精神 你說叫他們更加精進對於那個情色的改善 叫他們更加 應該把這個"},{"start":19855.759,"end":19855.859,"text":"主席"},{"start":19876.494,"end":19898.868,"text":"這補定的回答是說212家申請 那還有什麼許可等等之類的那到最後212家到最後你可輔導才66家 不到三分之一阿其實需要台灣的這個彈籠 需要去輔導或是說想要去渴望要去轉型的人從這個數字看起來就知道說這個是遠多於你要輔導66家嘛"},{"start":19900.569,"end":19929.425,"text":"所以我不認為說我沒有覺得說你這個數字這樣子的狀況那有展現出來你的態度啦那今天為什麼會面對我說實在你如果比較起來的話這是會很漏氣的德國可以德國基本上他是一個工業發達的國家嘛那這個台灣從日據時代到現在我們的農業發展我們養雞的技術等等之類的那結果"},{"start":19930.365,"end":19951.42,"text":"搞到最後德國是0.88日本是0.84那我們的這個美雞雞蛋的蛋率才0.52這是不應該的啊那你就是因為你的農業發展基金應該是要用在支持本土的農民做這個產業升級嘛"},{"start":19952.961,"end":19965.217,"text":"那你現在變成是說用這樣的方式然後再去購買國外的雞蛋變成是又本末倒置過來然後讓外國的雞蛋進來跟本土的蛋來競爭那這個是非常不對的啦"},{"start":19971.425,"end":19990.366,"text":"我拜託沒有資料就不理我,我本來是要跟你說,我們連總資,連我們自己就沒有,我們就要靜靜靜靜比較針對的是說,它的產業升級的不能夠及期,那你那個方向是要做成主決意,讓他們來做一個精進,朝你要求那個方向"},{"start":19992.278,"end":20005.208,"text":"說目的是一樣的我的目的是說希望我透過我這個案然後讓他能夠真的正式面對這個問題給他有壓力讓他可以去面對這個問題"},{"start":20013.926,"end":20029.294,"text":"現在是針對333啦 檢列八十萬年那委員已經同意檢列為十萬元科目執行調整一聽就知道 沒得說就保留不然他講不出來好來 那個333就改為"},{"start":20030.465,"end":20043.625,"text":"委員同意簡列10萬然後科目自行調整好 簡列10萬就10萬年啦改為10萬年科目自行調整齁來 通過334通商 通案處理那335凍結"},{"start":20047.089,"end":20051.831,"text":"委員已經同意改組結議組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":20075.657,"end":20103.114,"text":"這條齁"},{"start":20103.234,"end":20108.057,"text":"這條我寫351 罰金收入喔 這個不開玩笑啦這個我們遠洋醫藥三法修訂以後 罰單一罰一開就是幾百萬啦為一百控告年 一百十年 一百十一年喔"},{"start":20119.923,"end":20120.343,"text":"謝謝大家體驗農民 農漁民 謝謝"},{"start":20150.168,"end":20152.711,"text":"三五二三五二出案三五三主席有沒有人先來 照案通過"},{"start":20170.455,"end":20177.164,"text":"354改組結議沒有見通過355通商通案處理356改組結議沒有見通過357改組結議沒有見通過358改組結議沒有見通過359"},{"start":20184.774,"end":20185.174,"text":"365案委員已經同意改組決議"},{"start":20208.967,"end":20211.389,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":20237.755,"end":20258.834,"text":"請進啦請進啦這是 協商預算不是在質詢啦齁對因為 像你剛才講的 聽得懂就知道要保留好了"},{"start":20263.308,"end":20264.729,"text":"主席長主主席長通山林你們你們五個人啦對啦對啦"},{"start":20295.019,"end":20296.902,"text":"休息五分鐘"},{"start":20692.655,"end":20708.13,"text":"財政委員在這裡40幾案而已啊?沒有沒有財政委員會8幾百協調全40你不是說協調全40幾案嗎?全40而已啦協調 都協調對啦 對啦 他們都一百一百四十幾所以很快就到那個了喔?很快就到教育了喔"},{"start":20720.614,"end":20721.055,"text":"不知道有協調"},{"start":20793.919,"end":20807.027,"text":"主席長你先告還是我先告跟大家報告一下受主席長的交代"},{"start":20824.697,"end":20833.42,"text":"跟四大黨團的交代跟大家報告經各黨團協商結果113年度稅出通商總數299億元各項目刪減比例由主計總署調整"},{"start":20849.594,"end":20858.737,"text":"調整完就跟四大黨團報告一下二九九四大堡啦我們尊重四個宗教啦"},{"start":20875.146,"end":20889.333,"text":"好 來接下來跟大家報告一下接下來我們就開始來協商財政委員會的部分首先進行行政院主席總署還需要再介紹一下好 來"},{"start":20903.391,"end":20905.133,"text":"主計總署預算案"},{"start":20919.616,"end":20919.896,"text":"委員會是多少?"},{"start":20942.938,"end":20964.644,"text":"325萬維園會比較多啦維園會比較多嗎對啊好 那就並維園會好 那第二案就是文字修正那凍結並維園會決議辦理好那第三案就是改組決議沒有見通過好第四案尊重委員提案凍結 同意第四案凍結數字並維園會決議辦理並維園會啊對啊"},{"start":20969.926,"end":20970.146,"text":"第五案 凍結"},{"start":20984.925,"end":21011.217,"text":"第五案提書面報告第六案會併委員接辦提書面報告第七組結議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過第八組結議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過第九組結議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過第十組結議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":21013.934,"end":21039.344,"text":"第十一組決議有沒有人見?沒有端端委員提案端端通過第十二組決議端端通過再來就是監察院主管來監察院主管我們就來介紹列席的所長省紀部省紀長陳瑞敏先生已經在場好來"},{"start":21043.127,"end":21051.553,"text":"第十三案 改組決議 沒意見就通過第四案 凍結一百萬年 我們是不是併委員會決議辦理"},{"start":21074.868,"end":21096.64,"text":"財政部財政部來介紹我來介紹一下列席的首長財政部部長莊翠雲女士接下來我們就開始第19案改組決議沒有見就通過20案改組決議沒有見通過21案改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":21100.362,"end":21114.867,"text":"二十二案通三通案辦理二十三案改組結議 明日會見通過二十四案通三通案辦理二十五案組織案二十六案就併委會結議辦理併委會結議辦理提出面報告通過二十七案遵照辦理"},{"start":21129.229,"end":21154.978,"text":"好 那就我講一下啦齁這案子原來是我提要減略一百萬後來改成五十萬現在改為五萬可不可不自行調整嘛 阿捏好 現在改為五萬好 那二十七案就是減略五十萬齁扣免自行調整沒有見通過二十八案改組結議沒有見通過二十九案的組結議有沒有見正照辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":21159.281,"end":21159.681,"text":"二十七案出來"},{"start":21174.833,"end":21175.433,"text":"今天已經13號了 請問部長"},{"start":21204.166,"end":21208.868,"text":"中央的部分大概會在2700億左右總體的話就全國來說大概也差不多3500億左右"},{"start":21222.003,"end":21222.163,"text":"專案小組是誰"},{"start":21246.203,"end":21246.583,"text":"那你今年編的這個比現在的時增數會增加多少"},{"start":21271.241,"end":21286.767,"text":"113年是兩兆兩千九百多億那在財委會已經增加一百五十億所以大概是兩兆三千多億吧那你預估113的稅購收入會多少現在當然是我們預算數就是我們當時在編估的時候的一個預測數"},{"start":21292.328,"end":21299.651,"text":"會不會2013年又大幅超脫啊2013年編的已經比2012年來說增加了一千多億"},{"start":21304.404,"end":21323.595,"text":"每天都增加超增三四千億你聽我說真的四千五千那113年其實已經我們已經有調調參議會只有增加三千億喔?增加一百五十億啊多少?一百五十億啊一百五十億喔?我覺得應該加個零欸沒有啦 那就一年才會超過一年才會說 欸 乾脆破啊然後我們人比他少啊他媽不就拿這個標判這樣啊當然提案啊我們說最少應該增加一千億啊因為不行啊"},{"start":21334.321,"end":21336.863,"text":"我們再提案好了 增加個1500億"},{"start":21355.879,"end":21355.979,"text":"我沒這個能耐"},{"start":21371.846,"end":21377.667,"text":"何總召講錯了說聘我專家寫者那是專家寫的專家不是明年是我們聘我給你糾正明年是侯"},{"start":21397.143,"end":21425.351,"text":"法院就法院就好了 33案主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過 34案主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過 35案主決議有沒有意見 任照辦理 照案通過36案主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過 37案主決議有沒有意見 任照辦理 照案通過 38案主決議"},{"start":21427.107,"end":21450.597,"text":"責任通過39案主決議責任通過40案主決議責任通過41案主決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過42案主決議沒有意見修正通過43案改主決議沒有意見通過44案改主決議沒有意見通過"},{"start":21451.357,"end":21452.619,"text":"委員會是多少?3000多萬喔?所以5% 差不多?"},{"start":21469.801,"end":21497.987,"text":"好啦那就併委員會好謝謝那46案齁動結併委員會接辦理提書面報告好不好好沒有意見就通過動結也是併委員會好啦47案改組決議沒有意見通過48案組決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過49案組決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過50案改組決議沒有意見通過"},{"start":21499.008,"end":21522.26,"text":"五十一案改檢列十萬年科目自行調整沒有見通過五十二案改凍結百分之五這個凍結是不是病委員會接辦理好不好好那就病委員接辦理提書面報告沒有見通過院長不好意思五十二的這個五十二案五十二案"},{"start":21523.926,"end":21539.906,"text":"五十二應該是沒有要並這個委員沒有好那就照裡面的溝通好那就凍結百分之五十提出面報告沒有意見通過五十三案改簡列十五萬年科目自行調整沒有意見通過五十四案改凍結百分之十沒有意見通過"},{"start":21540.707,"end":21566.773,"text":"五十四案 改組結議 沒意見通過五十六案 組結議 文字修正 沒意見修正通過五十七案 組結議 文字修正 沒意見修正通過五十八案 組結議 文字修正 沒意見修正通過五十九案 凍結三十萬元 那就總統知道是不是要併委員會接辦理好 併委員會接辦理 但是要提事面報告五十四案是不是要併委員會 五十四案"},{"start":21568.302,"end":21576.345,"text":"60案主決議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過61案改主決議沒有意見通過62案撤案60案主決議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過64案改主決議沒有意見就通過"},{"start":21597.914,"end":21598.375,"text":"那沒有意見通過"},{"start":21627.728,"end":21630.029,"text":"這個凍結是不是被委員接辦了委員會凍結三千多萬好"},{"start":21655.465,"end":21656.987,"text":"7.9案凍結已併委員接辦理提書面報告"},{"start":21673.9,"end":21694.532,"text":"80案凍結已併委員接辦理提出面報告 沒有意見通過81案凍結已併委員接辦理 沒有意見通過82案檢列10萬年 沒有意見通過公務自行調整83案通山 84案通山 這兩個案就併"},{"start":21696.493,"end":21700.296,"text":"因為這個也不是只有財政部才有幾乎啊好幾個部位都有就是我們要放備援系統"},{"start":21725.5,"end":21748.217,"text":"那備援系統其實本來就有放結果他這次要加這個 增加這筆預算備援系統一副要打仗的樣子 放在美國 放在境外讓我講完讓我講完 不要緊張所以 排這個不是只有省政部 其他部位很多都有我覺得一方面"},{"start":21749.727,"end":21750.667,"text":"現在有沒有境外?還沒有吧?"},{"start":21775.303,"end":21789.87,"text":"沒有 那個還沒開始那個司法部也是有這個案子嘛好幾個部隊喔 司法部的喔你講我的喔還沒開始那個還要修法 成立一個委員會這個凍結兩百萬會不會變委員會結辦的運動委員會凍結兩億啊沒有啦 我是假的"},{"start":21799.022,"end":21814.29,"text":"他已經同意了他們文字修正我加幾個字跨境備運的部分要在中華民國進來並順便報告我們遵照修正後的內容文字修正嘛凍結並文件辦理就通過89案"},{"start":21826.442,"end":21833.433,"text":"八十九案事實上跟八十八案一樣是不是併以八十八案一併的併哪裡八十八案"},{"start":21835.31,"end":21836.351,"text":"這邊還有一個案吳斯案我剛才講的"},{"start":21866.125,"end":21885.99,"text":"五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案"},{"start":21893.032,"end":21893.473,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":21908.626,"end":21918.288,"text":"147案是要簡列300億元 大家意見怎麼樣是不是我可以說明一下在這裡的委員提案是說要簡列舉債300億元然後用稅積剩餘我想這部分是不是可以修正為並同稅入稅出審議的結果來通盤調整那個債務舉借"},{"start":21938.133,"end":21957.186,"text":"還有遺用以前年度稅計的剩餘因為這個300億把他講得太死了因為其實稅入稅出審核完以後就可以是不是繼續做這樣的修正要修正東西嘛那最後就曾總召來講來來來來那個部長到現在債務以額實際數字多少5兆8188億預算數呢預算數是6兆多6兆多多少6點多少"},{"start":21970.625,"end":21984.353,"text":"6兆5千676億6兆5千多嘛 對不對這個是財政部網站6兆5啦那還有多少特別預算是131415"},{"start":21987.419,"end":21994.888,"text":"還沒編進來的預算數就我們說一千五百多億一四加一五年度那特別預算會編列的舉借數是一五九五億"},{"start":22004.637,"end":22006.339,"text":"你先弄清楚你那個6乍5的預算數是到112還是113到113的預算數多少"},{"start":22028.937,"end":22034.559,"text":"6兆8241 68245因為蔡政府啊 浪費 亂花錢啊怎麼亂花錢啊你聽我說嘛我這個創 可以申請金氏紀錄啦"},{"start":22055.629,"end":22076.883,"text":"只是正八年拿出十三項的特別預算啦反正最多那你花更多啦結果那113年度是6821對不對對113嘛對不對那實際數是5兆8我知道啦我如果不接預算數跟實際數我就不會檢查啦不會當你們財政部的常識政治啦"},{"start":22086.8,"end":22091.061,"text":"那還有特別預算裡面13項特別預算裡面哪些還沒有邊境這個113的預算數的"},{"start":22115.199,"end":22144.353,"text":"一三六一四呢當然知道啊一四一五呢就是剛剛跟各位報告跟委員報告就是一千五百九十五億在特別預算裡面會在一一四跟一一五年舉借的是這樣的數字分配的數字是這樣子所以預算數是多少三八六九所以"},{"start":22145.663,"end":22159.849,"text":"蔡政府留下來的帳是多少?預算數啦齁我講預算數嗎?你敢憋嗎?阿會不會用?不知道阿你說你運氣好,超收就不借吧是69,850對不對?6兆9,850對不對?加進來阿但是我們也會還債阿"},{"start":22176.67,"end":22177.61,"text":"那你再算 你要還多少"},{"start":22207.027,"end":22207.608,"text":"明年也編了1150億也會還債"},{"start":22230.779,"end":22233.78,"text":"法黨派提的 包括王榮章也有 謝謝"},{"start":22261.158,"end":22279.506,"text":"我的提案給他簽名的啦你知道對對對他知道我拿給他簽名的才會過好講一下吧就讓還原事實不要講說五到八還有多一兆沒講一兆多沒講這樣我們147案怎麼處理就檢列300億剛才跟那個主席報告一下"},{"start":22287.321,"end":22295.45,"text":"他說增加移用以前年度稅據剩餘300億目前稅據剩餘只剩下30億了所以不可能有300億了"},{"start":22297.315,"end":22309.425,"text":"剩下多少?30億喔?只有30億,因為他們財政部都拿進來現在的稅收操作要等那個一,要等那個審計部審計完了以後才能夠用才能夠用啦所以現在講的說有什麼採決議的話做主決議怎麼樣?"},{"start":22322.543,"end":22351.196,"text":"好 OK那147案改組決議那沒有意見就通過148組決議有沒有意見遵照辦理好 照案通過院長不好意思算這個不好意思是我們民進黨執政黨提的這個組決議當然我們也支持那只是說這邊既然寫稅科收入5%啦其實我們按公務預算法其實為什麼不到6%我們還是希望說你們5到6啦 5到6啦不是 因為5就是下限嘛"},{"start":22352.079,"end":22359.214,"text":"那其實我們一直 其實剛才也講了其實今年都甚至還是超徵那麼多所以我們一直都覺得說其實這麼多預算"},{"start":22361.434,"end":22383.689,"text":"如果我們有超徵的話其實這個真的是先拿來還債啦那其實6%這個本來就是法律上規定的是上限是6%下限是5%嘛所以沒有錯所以是不是如果我們真的要符合財政機率我們其實是應該往6%的方向去做啊其實過去就一直都是都才一點點嘛"},{"start":22384.997,"end":22387.878,"text":"我瞭解 但是你看每一次現在這幾年 連續這幾年那個超增的這個數目"},{"start":22408.305,"end":22408.425,"text":"法定5%"},{"start":22426.741,"end":22449.107,"text":"法定是5%嘛只要多的話我們就多還嘛所以我們要先達到這個5%其實這個主權這樣寫應該是這樣他本來就要做到的他要是不做到他反而是違法的就是我們要求他我也正要問啊你寫這個主席幹嘛對啊他本來就一定要做到他要不做到他就違法了你問他你嚇到就嚇人你就做啊他本來議法要做啊"},{"start":22457.597,"end":22458.779,"text":"對 不做反而是違法的"},{"start":22466.217,"end":22482.748,"text":"這個最主要是因為稅客收入因為在我們編列的時候一定會去5%對 因為委員會有加了150億所以在這裡做這樣的一個提案的話那就要必須要增加好 那就這樣啦就這樣啦齁好 那接下來我們就金管會金管會主管的預算來"},{"start":22500.844,"end":22503.865,"text":"金融監督管理委員會主任委員黃天牧先生"},{"start":22533.306,"end":22538.411,"text":"請大家看九十六案九十六案凍結百分之二十"},{"start":22541.345,"end":22551.431,"text":"好 那就並委員結議辦理97案改組結議沒有意見通過98案改組結議沒有意見通過99案並委員結議辦理沒有意見通過100案改檢列15案也沒有意見通過101案改檢列10案也沒有意見通過102案改檢列10案也沒有意見通過103案改組結議沒有意見通過104案改凍結1%提示面報告沒有意見通過"},{"start":22570.502,"end":22572.004,"text":"105案動結100萬元106案改組結議107的組結議有沒有意見"},{"start":22594.824,"end":22621.694,"text":"遵照辦理好 那召喚通過108主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過1109主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過110主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過111主決議有沒有意見遵照辦理好 那沒意見召喚通過12主決議好 召喚通過113主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過114主決議"},{"start":22624.261,"end":22625.502,"text":"好 召喚通告接下來1234通3"},{"start":22655.401,"end":22660.725,"text":"124改檢列5萬年,那免費建設照案通過124改檢列5萬年,免費建設通過第二幕銀行監理這個應該銀行局的案子吧"},{"start":22685.719,"end":22710.621,"text":"124上面那個第二幕銀行監理就827萬動605萬,這個根本動不了這個要改一下,委員會要改一下,改十分之一就好了124到123之間啦,123到124之間第二幕銀行監理找人去的薪水囉委員會動太多了,這個動十分之一,要改一下"},{"start":22713.629,"end":22727.92,"text":"原列827萬,動一個你有沒有理由,動到就沒人動那這個不要動好了,動27萬就好了沒人動的,先問清楚我發現這個有異狀委員會這是委員會委員會是誰提案那時候有誰提案的各黨團都有這類機器那時候不知道什麼情緒發生了那這個不合理啦動多少"},{"start":22742.386,"end":22761.02,"text":"營養局也當過局長啊?對你有沒有?我當過副局長副局長齁?這不可以再衝了動多少?現在?主委現在動多少?827萬、動605萬,應該動了27萬就好了啦動100啦,要不要?動100啦你也要尊重人家委員會啊,不要想那些你還以為委員會要一種化身?動50萬啦,50萬好了"},{"start":22771.067,"end":22772.788,"text":"第二幕 銀行監理 原累827萬2千元 凍結605萬4千4百元 改為50萬"},{"start":22801.305,"end":22801.965,"text":"改為凍結50萬年現在就看126案124、125"},{"start":22827.892,"end":22830.813,"text":"實例這邊我們要檢列五萬現在是126凍結10"},{"start":22849.819,"end":22851.921,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":22870.185,"end":22893.551,"text":"一三二組決議,文字修正,沒有意見就修正通過一三三因為一三三要凍結百分之二十,那委員會已經凍結一百零八萬並委員會,一般行政而已嘛沒有意見就並委員會決議辦理這誰的案子阿黃衛委員的阿黃衛委員的阿黃衛委員,再四號法制來好啦你去問啦"},{"start":22895.805,"end":22909.77,"text":"有跟他 有拜會他 但是他他沒有辦法 那個時候他說交友證明中處理好 就這樣就好了報告總召 你是說他的提案內容堅持什麼"},{"start":22918.444,"end":22944.915,"text":"那就是說因為核酷投信有人跟他檢舉那他覺得...他覺得這個...在那邊...在那邊處理了嗎?處理掉了啊?AMC是老早的啊,今年是投信啦他覺得投信那個出差的理由不正當啦沒關係啦叫我們去...去查我們就...有去查了嗎?有去查,有去查,謝謝你們裡面有沒有錄文作假的?好,133病毒人員決議辦理錄文作假阿134...我們錄文作假"},{"start":22946.717,"end":22968.936,"text":"一三四 並委員決議辦理 沒有意見通過一三五 改檢列五萬年 沒有意見通過一三六 改檢列五萬年 沒有意見通過一三七 主決議有沒有意見 照案通過一三八 主決議文書修正 沒有意見修正通過一三九 主決議文書修正 沒有意見修正通過一四零 並委員決議辦理 沒有意見通過"},{"start":22970.778,"end":22980.028,"text":"141 主決議 文字修正沒有一件就修正通過142 主決議 文字修正沒有一件就修正通過143 改檢列五萬年沒有一件通過144 主決議"},{"start":22983.466,"end":23011.24,"text":"這個部分是跟各位跟院長跟各位報告因為原提案是希望我們直接去查農業金庫但是因為當時金管會成立的時候農委會是說我們他是委託我們去查農業金庫或是農委會的信用部所以不是我們不是農業部啦我們必須要農業部指示我們我們才能去查是這個原因"},{"start":23012.06,"end":23038.378,"text":"現在農業金庫監檢誰在做檢察局在做檢察局在做但是是根據農委會委託我們金管會去檢查農業金庫那今天這個決議是叫我們金管會直接去查這個下面那個淡的那個問淡的資金我們修一下因為這個東西真的要檢查能不能說請"},{"start":23040.495,"end":23041.836,"text":"建議撤案還是要保留"},{"start":23065.104,"end":23079.007,"text":"李慧明委員的提案我們本來是想如果是加農業部委託儘管會如果是農業部加農業部因為農業部還有第二輪嘛加個農業部給農業部不是直接給特政委員就給農業部我們有文字提案的修正"},{"start":23094.134,"end":23115.582,"text":"這樣啦 到農業部再處理啦那這個案抽出來啊 農業部啦 好啊到農業部再處理啦好 要記得喔抽到 通過農業部 農業部要二輪嘛對不對農業部要踢回來就好了農業部欠揍嘛"},{"start":23117.807,"end":23118.107,"text":"結論是農業部委託政府去查"},{"start":23141.983,"end":23164.328,"text":"這一個案就是等於調整到榮譽部主管啦這樣對不對我們另行做決議啦調整到榮譽部主管裡面再做決議啦好來145案主決議文書修正沒有意見就修正通過146案主決議文書修正沒有意見就修正通過好147案已經過了好就這樣好休息五分鐘"},{"start":23172.13,"end":23173.23,"text":"好 休息五分鐘 換文教"},{"start":23202.1,"end":23202.32,"text":"主席"},{"start":23228.27,"end":23229.031,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23253.514,"end":23254.255,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23287.414,"end":23288.655,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23320.052,"end":23321.637,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23337.556,"end":23339.698,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23363.84,"end":23364.761,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23389.821,"end":23402.108,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":23703.991,"end":23705.212,"text":"教育文化委員會預算"},{"start":23732.659,"end":23760.701,"text":"中研院的預算我介紹一下列席的首長中研院院長因為另有要工他昨天有打電話來表達說他會請副院長來代表那現在我就介紹中研院副院長周美銀女士好那我們就看"},{"start":23762.605,"end":23783.833,"text":"第一案第一案改組協議有沒有意見沒有意見通過接下來就故宮故宮我來介紹一下這個類型的所長國立故宮博物院院長蕭忠煌先生"},{"start":23786.783,"end":23799.987,"text":"請大家看第二案第二案並委員結議辦理有沒有意見沒有意見通過第三案並委員結議辦理沒有意見通過第四案改組結議沒有意見通過第五案改組結議沒有意見通過"},{"start":23804.704,"end":23805.985,"text":"這是不是可以併委員接辦禮來來"},{"start":23832.206,"end":23833.527,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":23875.836,"end":23900.392,"text":"明天就是最後兩組吧然後在第二輪好來可以啦我們現在進行核能會所屬的預算那我首先介紹列席的所長核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽先生"},{"start":23903.424,"end":23903.504,"text":"17.改組結議18.凍結10%19.改組結議"},{"start":23929.284,"end":23955.587,"text":"已經改組結意沒有意見通過第二十一案改組結意沒有意見通過第二十二、二十三通案處理第二十四案組結意文字修正沒有意見就修正通過二十五案組結意文字修正沒有意見也是修正通過再來換教育部"},{"start":23960.134,"end":23963.877,"text":"政府都有去溝通嗎?有,不錯"},{"start":23971.011,"end":23994.029,"text":"交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人"},{"start":24009.424,"end":24019.348,"text":"接下來是學商教育部主管的預算我介紹列席的所長教育部部長潘榮忠先生"},{"start":24021.601,"end":24032.731,"text":"接下來請大家看26案改增列50案沒有見通過27案改組結議沒有見通過28案屬於通算就通案處理29案改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":24041.069,"end":24047.473,"text":"30案改組決議沒有意見通過31案改組決議沒有意見通過32案改組決議沒有意見通過34案通刪科目我們就通案處理"},{"start":24057.892,"end":24071.922,"text":"35案改組結議沒有見通過36案改組結議沒有見通過37案改檢列20案也沒有見通過38案改組結議沒有見通過39改組結議沒有見通過40案改組結議沒有見通過41案改組結議沒有見通過42案改組結議沒有見通過43案改組結議沒有見通過44案併委員結議辦理沒有見通過45案改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":24087.454,"end":24090.117,"text":"46案並委員結議辦理沒有意見通過47案並委員結議辦理沒有意見通過48案改組結議沒有意見通過49案"},{"start":24098.039,"end":24119.885,"text":"47案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過50案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過51案壁魯園街辦理﹖沒有意見通過52案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過53案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過54案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過55案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過56案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過57案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過58案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過"},{"start":24127.915,"end":24154.568,"text":"五十九案改組結議沒有見通過六十案改組結議沒有見通過六十一案改組結議沒有見通過六十二改組結議沒有見通過六十三改組結議沒有見通過六十四案改凍結一百萬年沒有見通過六十五案並委員結議辦理沒有見通過六十六案改組結議沒有見通過六十七案改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":24157.569,"end":24162.051,"text":"68改動捷50萬也沒有見通告68案68案並委員決議辦理大家有沒有意見那不好意思那當然還是麻煩部長那這個報告還是要給我們好那提一個書面報告給這個提案人我們遵照辦理"},{"start":24186.843,"end":24193.868,"text":"68案 並委員結議辦理 動輯並委員結議辦理 提示面報告沒有意見通過69案 改組結議沒有意見通過 70案 並委員結議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":24201.499,"end":24216.875,"text":"七十一案改組結議沒有意見通過七十二案改組結議沒有意見通過七十三案改組結議沒有意見通過七十四案組結議文字修正沒有意見修正通過七十五案組結議文字修正沒有意見修正通過七十六案"},{"start":24220.509,"end":24220.93,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24234.11,"end":24234.83,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":24255.379,"end":24255.619,"text":"暫停會議暫停會議暫停會議暫停會議"},{"start":24285.868,"end":24287.93,"text":"102 主決議有做文字修正那沒意見就修正通過"},{"start":24315.697,"end":24342.413,"text":"103 主決議 證照辦理 照案通過104 主決議有文字修正 但沒有意見就修正通過105 主決議也有文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過106 也有文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過107 主決議做文字修正 委員這邊有同意"},{"start":24346.589,"end":24374.833,"text":"107有文字修正是吧對對他本來就有文字修正也跟委員報告委員已經同意改組決修正通過的意思那就照案通過啦對不對好那就照案通過108就依照修正文字就是改3個A那個嘛那個是通案就照案通過109修正後我們遵照辦理"},{"start":24376.038,"end":24394.303,"text":"11有修正文字沒有意見就修正通告12有修正文字沒有意見就修正通告13主席有修正文字沒有意見就修正通告14主席有修正文字沒有意見就修正通告"},{"start":24405.811,"end":24430.703,"text":"115 主席有修正文字沒有意見就招人通過116 主席有修正文字沒有意見就修正通過117 主席有修正文字沒有意見就修正通過118 主席有修正文字沒有意見就修正通過119 沒有意見就招人通過120 沒有意見就招人通過"},{"start":24433.478,"end":24445.125,"text":"121主決議有修正文字沒有建設修正通告121文字有修正那沒有建設修正通告123主決議 中照辦理124主決議 中照辦理127改主決議還沒有到127來 再寫125125的部分增累八千萬年"},{"start":24460.631,"end":24465.255,"text":"要改成組結議有沒有意見 以後黨長會不要再建校園"},{"start":24484.132,"end":24502.44,"text":"上次我也執行執行過因為黨場會的意識形態跟教育部不一樣你不要以後不要再請這個黨場會去辦什麼活動部長我這要求合理吧總商我們了解好謝謝好1271改組結議那沒有意見通過好來128測案"},{"start":24512.779,"end":24520.806,"text":"要求改檢列10萬年免費券通過130通山歌舞通案處理好 測案130測案"},{"start":24525.131,"end":24533.593,"text":"131改組結議沒有意見通過132改組結議沒有意見通過133改組結議沒有意見通過134改組結議沒有意見通過135改組結議沒有意見通過136改組結議沒有意見通過137改組結議沒有意見通過138併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過139改組結議沒有意見通過140併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過141併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":24550.097,"end":24553.318,"text":"142 改組結議沒有見通過143 併委員結議辦理沒有見通過144 改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":24566.963,"end":24573.866,"text":"145改組結議沒有見通過146併委員會決議辦理沒有見通過147併委員會決議辦理沒有一見通過148併委員會決議辦理沒有一見通過149改組結議沒有見通過150併委員會決議辦理沒有見通過151併委員會決議辦理沒有見通過152改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":24588.213,"end":24598.369,"text":"153主席議正照辦理好 暫緩通過154主席議有作文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過155主席議有作文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過156"},{"start":24601.598,"end":24625.425,"text":"主席有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過157主席正照辦理好 照案通過158主席有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過159主席有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過160主席有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過161主席有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過院長有一個新的161-1161-1喔對好來"},{"start":24630.404,"end":24634.367,"text":"161-1 那就通過161-1 通過162-3 就通案處理163 併委員接一半 裡面會見通過164 測案165 併委員接一半 裡面會見通過166 併委員接一半 裡面會見通過167 改組協議 167 改組協議 裡面會見通過"},{"start":24661.271,"end":24668.513,"text":"168改組協議沒有見通過169改組協議沒有見通過170並委員會回問170並委員接辦理沒有見通過171改組協議沒有見通過172改組協議沒有見通過173動議1000萬能部長解釋一下嗎"},{"start":24688.318,"end":24710.853,"text":"這個案子請教委員會有什麼跟主席來個委員報告齁這個在委員會出審的時候凍結100萬我們是不是建議可以併委員會的決議辦理173併委員會決議辦理之後那然後這個報告給我們好不好順便報告好第一個順便報告給提案件好那就照這樣通過174併委員會決議辦理如果沒有意見就通過175改凍結100萬錢這個要不要"},{"start":24717.128,"end":24718.808,"text":"177 並委員會決議178 並委員會決議辦理 179 撤案 180 通案辦理"},{"start":24746.515,"end":24768.321,"text":"主決議有文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過182 主決議有文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過183 主決議有文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過184 主決議有文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過185 改主決議﹖沒有意見通過"},{"start":24772.076,"end":24776.618,"text":"186改組協議,沒有見通過187改組協議,沒有見通過188改組協議,沒有見通過189改組協議,沒有見通過190190就是召喚通過好來介紹介紹,來不知道不知道小姐姐小姐姐"},{"start":24801.22,"end":24804.982,"text":"但是你病的時候,人家提案的人要跟他病進去啊?都是提案的啦一樣啦,要加也可以啦加一個證明中啦加柯建銘啦"},{"start":24828.51,"end":24830.551,"text":"交付不錯,交付都可以溝通,所以很順利啦"},{"start":24858.319,"end":24860.896,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":24903.776,"end":24918.376,"text":"好那我現在來進行文化部主管的協商那我來介紹列席的所長文化部部長史哲先生好那接下來我們就請大家看191案"},{"start":24920.437,"end":24929.46,"text":"並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過192改組決議沒有意見通過193改組決議沒有意見通過194並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過195改組決議沒有意見通過196並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過197並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過198改組決議沒有意見通過199並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":24945.849,"end":24954.636,"text":"200案改組協議沒有見通過201改組協議沒有見通過202改組協議沒有見通過203改組協議沒有見通過204改組協議沒有見通過205並委員會協議辦理沒有見通過206並委員會協議辦理沒有見通過207並委員會協議辦理沒有見通過208改組協議沒有見通過209並委員會協議辦理沒有見通過210並委員會協議辦理沒有見通過"},{"start":24977.213,"end":24984.757,"text":"211 並委員會決議沒有意見通過212 並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過213 並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過214 並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過215 改組決議沒有意見通過216 改組決議沒有意見通過217 並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":25000.464,"end":25007.43,"text":"218 並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過219 並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過220 改組決議沒有見通過221 改組決議沒有見通過222 撤案223 改組決議沒有見通過224 改組決議沒有見通過225 並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過226 改組決議沒有見通過227 並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過228 改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":25028.687,"end":25035.81,"text":"228保留229保留230保留231、232屬於通商、通案處理233主協議有沒有意見看有沒有意見"},{"start":25057.085,"end":25057.705,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":25079.744,"end":25080.545,"text":"236 主決議237 主決議238 主決議239 主決議240 主決議"},{"start":25102.694,"end":25109.355,"text":"每日間召喚通過21組結議每日間召喚通過22組結議有做文書修正每日間就修正通過23組結議每日間就召喚通過24組結議每日間召喚通過25組結議每日間召喚通過26組結議建議修正文字啦這是華市啦華市的經費大部分哪裡來"},{"start":25132.377,"end":25132.677,"text":"租金收入"},{"start":25148.908,"end":25172.049,"text":"我覺得這個華氏 照理講國防集團應該比較客觀嘛現在跟好像是三綠的子公司一樣啊 不用擋著啊常常修理我們啊 哪敢修理 都修理國民黨啊沒有沒有沒有他有修理你啊沒有沒有 我不要看了你叫他 叫他 叫他 叫他 叫他 叫他 叫他"},{"start":25179.353,"end":25205.603,"text":"這很誇張啊 三立啊 都是高層都從那個部長 現在華視是誰在管啊為什麼都是從三立的人派來啊吳延輝啊吳延輝 那個公司的董事長是不是是那我們現在暫停請吳延輝來啊不用啦不能這樣 都從三立找人來 這不行啊 部長"},{"start":25208.66,"end":25237.012,"text":"你提過之後以及我上任之後從來還沒有處理過人事啦對啊 你沒有處理啊 都是胡元輝在處理啊都從山裡找人啊 這不可以這樣子啊這1年來其實都沒有人事的禁用啦高層都沒有人事八百年前的事八百年前的事以前是國安部的啦 對不對華視本來國安部的嘛你等一下那個二輪的時候你問國安部長你給我包公啦"},{"start":25237.622,"end":25245.365,"text":"阿是不是我來建議一下保護時間我來建議一下就是說25、26、27、28、29、250阿全部保留不要保留啦阿不要浪費時間阿25、26、27、28保留好不好到28阿那個部長是"},{"start":25263.903,"end":25287.886,"text":"華氏現在還要活化資產嗎內部的一大堆 內部撿起來一大堆華氏的活化資產目前沒有都只是在研議階段對啦 你看嘛 你那個內部管理有問題啊黃國民黨實在就一直研究到現在你又扯國民黨 你扯國防部好啦等二輪的時候你問一下周部長"},{"start":25289.619,"end":25290.139,"text":"那249是不是通過"},{"start":25320.953,"end":25349.27,"text":"就只有到245、246、247、248四個案啦那249修正文字通過好不好修正文字啦四個案保留啦二輪再來講啦249修正文字啦謝謝249組結議做文字修正那就修正通過現在沒有看到文字喔有有有有好"},{"start":25350.253,"end":25351.254,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25366.533,"end":25385.506,"text":"要不要修正 召喚通過 召喚通過好來 253組結議 修正文字好 修正文通過254組結議 修正文字OK 好 修正文字 修正通過2555改組結議 沒人見通過256改組結議 沒人見通過257併委員結議辦理 沒人見通過258併委員結議辦理 沒人見通過259組結議 有沒有人見召喚通過 好 召喚通過 可以嗎"},{"start":25398.266,"end":25406.072,"text":"261 並委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過262 並委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過263 並委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過264 並委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過265 改組結議沒有意見通過266 組結議有沒有意見"},{"start":25420.868,"end":25421.008,"text":"267、268測案269測案"},{"start":25429.636,"end":25436.719,"text":"270改組結議沒有見通過271改組結議沒有見通過272測案273改組結議沒有見通過274測案275改組結議沒有見通過276改組結議沒有見通過277改組結議沒有見通過278改組結議沒有見通過279改組結議沒有見通過280測案好來"},{"start":25457.935,"end":25458.275,"text":"交通委員會"},{"start":25493.08,"end":25505.07,"text":"接下來我們就進行國家科學及技術委員會主管的預算首先我介紹列席的所長國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳正宗先生"},{"start":25506.667,"end":25515.352,"text":"好 那現在我們請大家看281案改組決議沒有意見通過282案改組決議沒有意見通過283案改為凍結5%沒有意見 都通過 有沒有意見沒有意見通過283 講好了 他們講好了凍結5% 講好了齁"},{"start":25535.738,"end":25544.586,"text":"284通3通案辦理285通3通案辦理286、287、288、289、290、291、292都是通3我們就通案處理293主決議文書修正沒有一些修正通過294主決議"},{"start":25560.083,"end":25564.425,"text":"沒有意見就召喚通過齁好召喚通過295組結議召喚通過好召喚通過296組結議好召喚通過297組結議好召喚通過好來到一段落好來這樣"},{"start":25897.438,"end":25918.906,"text":"交通委員會的部分首先我們就處理國家通信傳播委員會的預算介紹國家通信傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥先生接下來請大家看第一案第一案大家有什麼意見邱總召"},{"start":25927.191,"end":25944.379,"text":"院長因為這個案件也跟主委討論過非常多次因為三立入主宗家的這個部分一直到現在也都沒有任何一個處分所以這個沒辦法對社會交代"},{"start":25952.066,"end":25980.543,"text":"頻道商跟系統商不能夠結合違反這個反媒體壟斷的紅線這是非常清楚的那從9月8號到現在已經這個三個月過去了到現在連一個處分都沒有這沒有道理啊所以就這個部分的話我們的案當然就是說雖然凍結NCC一般行政預算50%啊那這個先保就好了"},{"start":25982.798,"end":26006.89,"text":"主委要不要說明一下保留啦主委說明啦謝謝委員關心這個案子其實我們一直在討論當中我們近期應該也會做出一些相關的決定那該處罰我們還是會處罰先說明一下 謝謝那保留好不好好保留一案保留第二案"},{"start":26009.534,"end":26009.694,"text":"第四案"},{"start":26038.448,"end":26046.657,"text":"併委員的接辦禮好 媒體先弄夠院長不好意思 我第三案那邊就是併委員會處理沒問題但是那個報告要請給我們 好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":26054.977,"end":26062.399,"text":"報告主席不好意思第八案委員有簽字改組決議我沒有把資料放在桌上改組決議好"},{"start":26084.366,"end":26089.928,"text":"委員有同意改懲處決議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議"},{"start":26114.112,"end":26122.015,"text":"第十二案保留 第十一案保留 第十二案保留 第十三案也是保留嗎"},{"start":26129.783,"end":26157.839,"text":"十三案是針對這個三立持有中家百分之二十七但是呢這個三立卻僅針對這個榮勝投資百分之十五做出承諾但是另外一個百分之十二的部分那你前面一樣嘛你交代這個不一樣啊這不一樣這個剛剛的第一案是說NCC到現在還沒有做出一個決定嘛也沒有做出一個處分嘛這非常離譜啊已經三個月過去了"},{"start":26158.539,"end":26185.854,"text":"那13案的部分就是說這個12%到底去向去向到底從來沒有交代報告裡面也都完全沒有交代好好第13案的保留第14案保留保留齁保留那第15案要保留要保留哇保留滿多的第16案要保留好來請看"},{"start":26188.543,"end":26205.755,"text":"十七案保留十八案沒有見通過保留十九案沒有見通過保留十八保留十九也是保留二十案也是保留二十一案保留"},{"start":26217.384,"end":26217.664,"text":"25案保留"},{"start":26246.826,"end":26275.407,"text":"二十六案 通過我們先修正文字修正什麼文字保留好了 不要修了二十七案保留 二十八案 遵照辦理通過二十八之一 遵照辦理 二十八也遵照辦理"},{"start":26276.823,"end":26288.86,"text":"二七二八都遵照辦理二七二八都遵照辦理二十八之一介意修正文字修正文字二十八之一主結議修正文字沒有異見的修正通過"},{"start":26290.894,"end":26291.215,"text":"好,這樣好了,謝謝"},{"start":26324.477,"end":26326.638,"text":"致敬就31啊偷吃一下"},{"start":26342.936,"end":26357.106,"text":"現在是國家運輸安全調查委員會主管的預算首先我介紹列席的所長國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信德先生接下來請大家看29案29案已經溝通文字修正"},{"start":26372.202,"end":26375.406,"text":"秘密委員會秘密委員會秘密秘密秘密秘密秘密秘密秘密秘密秘密"},{"start":26389.195,"end":26390.436,"text":"議員長我們是希望說這個31案他能夠"},{"start":26408.33,"end":26429.614,"text":"應該是說先保留啦因為因為這個涉及到這個太魯閣的太魯閣事故之後那檢警竟然在車廂裡面還找到這個44件疑似遺難者的遺骸嘛他經過比對還有10名好 那就保留好 31案保留32案凍結併完結辦理如何好就在那裡啊"},{"start":26439.066,"end":26462.407,"text":"三十二案委員會凍結兩百萬這個差不多五十萬而已啊討論的時候好像沒有並委員會結議因為你這個是九百六十萬嘛齁那你如果是二十分之一差不多只有四十萬而已啊四十八萬 五十萬好 那報告要另外交好不好 委員會兩百萬好"},{"start":26466.212,"end":26466.712,"text":"公共工程委員會"},{"start":26501.491,"end":26527.067,"text":"接下來我們就來協商行政院公共工程委員會主管的預算"},{"start":26529.266,"end":26540.619,"text":"首先介紹所長 行政院公共工程委員 會主任委員吳卓成先生現在請大家看 34案通案處理 35案凍結10%是不是病理委員會接辦理病理委員會接辦理"},{"start":26550.407,"end":26578.473,"text":"那36案並無接辦理沒有見通過37案並無接辦理沒有見通過院長不好意思我跟他稍微說明一下就是說37案主委希望能夠就這個中央續產會採購不適用政府採購法的這個部分是不是可以去嚴厲修正這個政府採購法的主體範圍因為這個部分的話這個爭議非常大那為什麼他可以不用適用到這個政府採購法"},{"start":26580.034,"end":26605.197,"text":"那可能這個真的也是要去商榷的 有商榷的餘地啊37案主委 我贊成喔因為有一些財團法人尤其是他的經費來自政府機關或者他的執行長 總經理 董事長是政府派的那基本上他是政府一樣"},{"start":26606.098,"end":26633.235,"text":"所以這些人或這些機構基本上要適用政府採購法你不要清楚你也常常在政府機關服務嘛派到對的人他就依規定給你辦派到不好的人亂搞一通欸所以我贊成啊剛剛邱顯智總召講的這些準政府機構也要適用政府採購法你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":26635.863,"end":26652.2,"text":"這個部分可能相關的部會再來檢討我補充一下 主委 我這個案裡面我有比較那個誰怎麼樣你在照什麼 錄什麼影啊 那一個"},{"start":26656.087,"end":26658.528,"text":"就是說這個我有提出說比較歐盟的公共採購指令那因為歐盟的這個"},{"start":26683.945,"end":26709.723,"text":"指令裡面規定說到底什麼是叫做屬於這個受公法管制的法人的這個屬於採購主體那定義裡面非常明確他有三種一種就是說第一個是吸以滿足公益為其目的而設立不具工業或商業的性質二是說其具有法人格三是其財務大部分由國家地方政府或其他受公法管制的法人所支持的"},{"start":26710.964,"end":26732.159,"text":"按照歐盟採購指令的規定 中央續產會無疑會是採購主體 這沒有問題因為他百分之百接受政府的支持所以就這部分的話 依照整個相關的規定不管是說行政法人法37條 第二項規定 基本上是有"},{"start":26733.5,"end":26753.06,"text":"這個研議的必要啦針對這一類型的符合這一類型的這種法人財團法人或等等之類的這個要不要回答啊啊主委啊這樣38案勒到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":26755.905,"end":26783.271,"text":"好那38案呢就凍結10%沒有意見沒有意見喔建議本會有建議修正文字那建議併委員會決議好那38案併委員會決議辦理修正文字有沒有意見沒有意見報告也要給我們提示文報告給提案員好那39案併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":26786.149,"end":26811.684,"text":"事實案 凍結五十萬年 並委員會接辦理 如何不用啦 不用變不用變 不用變 不要講啦 不要變好 那就凍結五十萬年 沒有意見通過事實一案 並委員會接辦理 沒有意見通過事實二案 並委員會接辦理 沒有意見通過事實四案 這個凍結六萬年 是不是並委員會接辦理好好不好"},{"start":26814.721,"end":26835.427,"text":"委員凍結三百萬阿 阿你做個六萬嘛不要併阿 好 就這樣子啦 維持這樣子好啦好啦好啦 凍結六萬年 沒違憲通過 四十五案凍五萬年 沒違憲通過 四十六案主決議 有沒有違憲"},{"start":26837.041,"end":26860.636,"text":"46案本會有建議修正文字好那就文字修正那修正通過好47案主席決議遵照辦理好那就照案通過好好來好謝謝囉那個主委主委接下來就政府"},{"start":26863.404,"end":26863.664,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26912.906,"end":26933.632,"text":"我們繼續現在進行交通部主管的部分首先介紹所長交通部部長王國才先生接下來請大家看第48案48案陣列兩議員有沒有意見"},{"start":26937.277,"end":26943.425,"text":"跟副院長報告,我們因為委員會已經增加3億元了,我們建議並委員會決議辦理委員會辦公室去溝通,只是因為他沒簽名"},{"start":26957.061,"end":26978.796,"text":"好 併委員會決議辦理48案併委員會決議辦理49案也是併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過50案併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過51案併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過52案通三科目我們就通案辦理好那53案凍結十分之一我們併委員會決議辦理好那就併委員會決議辦理54案"},{"start":26985.956,"end":27013.495,"text":"併委員接辦理好那明日見通過五十五案通商科目我們就通案處理好那五十六案檢列一百二十萬元檢列二十萬就好啦二十萬就好啦郭董過也是建議改為凍結凍結十分之一提書面報告五十萬乾脆把它了結掉啦檢列五十萬可以啦好檢列五十萬好"},{"start":27015.885,"end":27043.266,"text":"沒有意見通過好來五十七案並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過五十八案並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過五十九案並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過六十案通山科目通案處理六十一案並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過六十二案凍結五百萬那是不是並委員會決議辦理好"},{"start":27045.373,"end":27059.451,"text":"好沒有人先通過那63案並委員接辦理如果沒有人先通過64案並委員接辦理沒有人先通過65案並委員接辦理沒有人先通過好幾個都要交報告"},{"start":27063.215,"end":27088.02,"text":"好 沒問題那這個陳委員他提到就是626364希望提順便報告來66案我看也是病委會接辦理病委會接辦理沒有意見通過67案病委會接辦理沒有意見通過68案病委會接辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":27090.161,"end":27102.906,"text":"69案已併委員會接辦,你們要不要接?委員會是...是怎麼樣?委員會等於凍結了1億,1億3啦好,那就併委員會,那報告給我你們13億被凍結了1%咧好,那就...那就照案了嗎?照委員會"},{"start":27113.708,"end":27130.219,"text":"趙委員會就是併委員會接一半禮69案也併委員會接一半禮若沒有意見通過70案也併委員會接一半禮沒有意見通過71案也併委員會接一半禮沒有意見通過院長這個有意見因為71案這個涉及到是說當然規則規定機車在無標限的時候必須行駛外側車道但是就是說這個"},{"start":27142.887,"end":27148.695,"text":"道路交通標誌標線號誌設置規則第178條他並沒有一個沒有明定一個標準那191條有關這個帶轉區的劃設標準也沒有一個明確的規範"},{"start":27158.428,"end":27184.907,"text":"所以就這個部分的話其實也凸顯出說它造成很多的問題甚至在這個帶轉區的時候位置不當更變成一個帶撞區這非常危險那所以就這個部分的話這個我們希望能夠簡列這個路徵業務預算一百萬那凍結路徵業務百萬之十啦那希望政府提出一個這一個修法的方案"},{"start":27185.708,"end":27187.632,"text":"然後經教務委員會同意後使得動之"},{"start":27188.686,"end":27216.275,"text":"你要三預算又要多一預算三個月提的出來嗎有沒有修法就是要讓他正視這個問題因為這長期以來已經是一個很嚴重的我們提書面報告是不是凍結就好因為這也是一個很重要的一些業務尤其委員關心的大碗是不是就十分之一我們三個月內提報告這樣好不好凍結十分就是百分之十"},{"start":27218.576,"end":27218.716,"text":"要怎麼樣"},{"start":27238.473,"end":27240.857,"text":"同意凍結 凍十分之一不要變委員會喔我要凍 凍十分之一阿"},{"start":27251.872,"end":27275.643,"text":"但是我不要併委員會啊那是要凍結一個一千四百多萬的十分之一啦那就是我在確認一下我怕講錯啦編案七十一案就凍結十分之一那提報告事務院報告都是陸珍業務嘛大家都十分之一你這個也是陸珍業務啊一樣的啊"},{"start":27281.212,"end":27304.813,"text":"對阿但是我不要併動啦那你要另外動對阿另外動阿跳動那他就交這個書面報告阿我已經沒有簡列了阿因為你這個已經是一個長期的這個問題而且你這個狀況的話是放任這個機車主婦在高度的危險中嘛併動也可以提阿"},{"start":27306.144,"end":27306.264,"text":"邱總召"},{"start":27335.501,"end":27340.946,"text":"七十二案是不是跟七十一案你一個人起兩個案都是同一都一樣"},{"start":27343.618,"end":27362.623,"text":"七十二案這個報告會不一樣啊七十二案的狀況是希望說因為現在的這個砂石車齁或者是說這一個營業車輛的問題非常嚴重嘛你併動啦然後提 中央提報告就好了嘛一樣啊這你這才一千十你這樣兩個這樣就兩"},{"start":27365.51,"end":27391.862,"text":"七十二案我希望說他去參照日本的法規嘛那提出就是說針對這個客域業者也好因為台灣因為現在的狀況就是說對於這些營業的車輛他並沒有科與他的連坐的處罰不是啊 現在就是說你那個這邊十分之一 凍結十分之一下面還有好多個十分之一啦如果這樣凍的話他整個就沒有辦法沒有辦法開頭啦"},{"start":27394.583,"end":27397.525,"text":"7272案的凍結案就秉委員會接一半禮73案的秉委員會接一半禮如何改組決議"},{"start":27420.165,"end":27420.525,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":27445.154,"end":27455.614,"text":"七十二案我問一下部長七十二案要叫你三個月參照日本法規提出,那最後做得到嗎?"},{"start":27456.758,"end":27476.528,"text":"我們就提書面報告不一定按照那個不一定按照我們自己有自己的主體嘛對對對不一定要日有時候一定要照日本的如果連這個日本的這個日車制我在質詢的時候都已經研究我想說連這種交通部都沒辦法提出來的話可以去亂拼這個簡單的事情他大概派員去日本去考察"},{"start":27482.11,"end":27487.235,"text":"運營所也有調查 不然運營所運輸安救所在幹嘛那你幹嘛一直在替他著想他都已經答應了交通部每年花的國家多少錢啊"},{"start":27502.609,"end":27503.19,"text":"三個月竟然沒辦法"},{"start":27528.492,"end":27553.646,"text":"了解到說日本的制度現在管理砂石車是什麼制度嗎他當然知道我現在不是說完全炒一炒 問題是誰要炒好 誰要蓋 總要好不是啊 那你日本的制度比較好日本的砂石車遊覽車的管理比台灣好這是不爭的事實他的這個收穫的死亡率比台灣可能少三分之一欸"},{"start":27554.526,"end":27562.951,"text":"我們一批他又多三倍 又不低欸冷靜冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜"},{"start":27583.883,"end":27585.164,"text":"你這個是來亂的好不好 你是來亂的吧"},{"start":27604.98,"end":27605.26,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27628.241,"end":27634.725,"text":"院長這不用休息啊你來亂好不好院長平平理人家交通部長已經答應了現在已經到了七十三案了他還反過來說七十二案的時候參考日本的這個制度"},{"start":27653.336,"end":27655.377,"text":"七十五案是我們這邊提的 七十五案能按照我們的嗎"},{"start":27682.216,"end":27685.138,"text":"70案就保留,76案並委員結辦禮入"},{"start":27714.093,"end":27734.507,"text":"好 併 77案 併文傑辦理書喔院長 這個讓部長表示一下意見啦不要說都是我們在講那部長針對77案 那你的意見是什麼77案是談那個計車交通環境的問題嗎是啊那個 計車的問題齁就是說車道分配還是計安全沒有77啦 現在77"},{"start":27743.041,"end":27744.242,"text":"市長也非常支持行川縣退縮"},{"start":27765.063,"end":27781.042,"text":"那現在我的案是說你現在就是說我們的罰單很多然後呢也有很多的這個執法的這個開罰增加但是就是說希望這個罰金可以用來強化到案"},{"start":27782.895,"end":27796.191,"text":"你現在的罰單一年多少一千四百萬張那大概兩百多億但是現在問題在哪裡問題是說這些罰單拿到這兩百多億中央 地方"},{"start":27797.589,"end":27817.015,"text":"絕大多數都沒有用在改善交通那許多還在用在增加更多的測速器所以我的案其實非常簡單就是說希望能夠交通部在6個月內接受了不要再講了我又沒有同意要併動"},{"start":27826.049,"end":27843.405,"text":"我現在的做法就是說希望能夠在6個月內完成道路安全標準跟對地方政府苛責的制度的擬定然後你去增加說擬定增加交通違規罰款然後用於道安改善設備跟工程的比例辦法"},{"start":27845.852,"end":27872.883,"text":"這個很合理嘛我們處罰的目的是為了改善交通啊所以你這兩百多億拿到之後並不是為了要對人民再開更多的罰單嘛因為你開更多的罰單最近這幾年來這個罰單的數目一直增加一直增加破千萬張現在已經一千四百萬張每個台灣人每年都快要得到一張罰單了所以你的做法應該是說是不是能夠把這一些交通違規的划緩"},{"start":27873.743,"end":27893.114,"text":"用於道安的改善設備跟工程﹖定一個比例辦法你去一個書面報告因為我們現在的道安﹖比如說現在通過的行人交通安全設施條例﹖一年就400億﹖一年就100億﹖跟這個罰款差不多"},{"start":27893.954,"end":27894.214,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27918.448,"end":27935.007,"text":"所以我就是希望說他能夠針對這個滑款的部分能夠用在改善交通上面我當然知道你說那個那這個很多的特級學校也一直在爭取嘛那這個也是肯定的態度嘛但是問題就是說那個滑"},{"start":27937.221,"end":27964.646,"text":"這個罰單所收的這些錢不應該變成是一種類似稅金的性質啊如果是這樣的話就是這個牽涉到很多 包括地方政府這個我們還是回到預算啦齁回到預算 77案你們現在要怎麼樣是要併入人的結議辦理還是要那院長要保留啦77案保留那78案"},{"start":27966.24,"end":27972.605,"text":"要保留嗎其實78案的狀況我是希望說因為現在這個所謂的就是說很多的這個案件基本上都是"},{"start":27990.199,"end":27992.22,"text":"不但造成行車行人的風險﹖"},{"start":28016.047,"end":28035.585,"text":"那部長就是說希望針對這個所謂的這個違規的這個熱點那可以去針對這一些違規的熱點去邀集地方政府也好或是說這一些零售業者物流車的業者跟司機那你去商討說如何去改善"},{"start":28036.266,"end":28056.518,"text":"那究竟是說要劃設一個臨庭的卸貨區域因為這主要很多都是沒有維護艇的問題那你沒有維護艇的問題那你去苛責這些物流車的司機或者是說去對這些物流業者再去苛責那也沒辦法所以就是說應該是要劃設"},{"start":28058.519,"end":28061.622,"text":"到底是要怎麼樣的方式去解決﹖那甚至是﹖"},{"start":28080.611,"end":28092.519,"text":"77案保留78案就併委員結議辦理提出面報告79案委員辦公室已經同意改為主決議員我們有送主決議員在79案主決議那沒有意見通過"},{"start":28097.822,"end":28120.28,"text":"那80案 凍結2000萬 去併委員會決議辦理如果80案也是一樣 經過委員辦公室同意改回決議那沒有見通告 81案併委員會決議辦理 沒有見通告82案併委員會決議辦理 沒有見通告83案併委員會決議辦理 沒有見通告84 85通3 我們就通案處理86案縣長84是併委員會決議辦理"},{"start":28126.969,"end":28149.394,"text":"那是通案?那是通案啊?那還是通山的科目?要交報告喔?通山欸交報告是說也要交報告?好 那就你說84案交報告是吧?好 那就提一個書面報告來"},{"start":28155.105,"end":28172.254,"text":"委員長8686這個就是中華快遞年年爆發罷工的爭議那交通部的這個這個中華郵政公司派在這個中華快遞的這個董事基本上到底有沒有善盡這一個"},{"start":28174.309,"end":28175.049,"text":"中華快遞公司團體協商"},{"start":28202.797,"end":28203.118,"text":"這件我們要保留"},{"start":28221.118,"end":28237.783,"text":"86案保留87案並委員會接辦理沒有意見通過88案是不是並委員會接辦理也經過委員辦公室同意改組決議組決議那沒有意見通過89案並委員會接辦理沒有意見通過90案並委員會接辦理沒有意見通過91案通商通案處理92案"},{"start":28246.606,"end":28257.333,"text":"90號案凍結因為前面已經凍結了10分之1等於二十三億啦齁這邊前面凍結二十三億所以90號案是這個凍結是併委員會接辦你如何好"},{"start":28262.998,"end":28266.501,"text":"併委員接辦理9393通案處理93併委員接辦理沒有見通過95案"},{"start":28281.857,"end":28282.057,"text":"104改成主決議"},{"start":28307.668,"end":28309.769,"text":"107組結議有沒有意見交通部 遵照辦理108組結議遵照辦理109組結議遵照辦理110組結議遵照辦理"},{"start":28337.294,"end":28337.975,"text":"文字修正修正通過"},{"start":28362.554,"end":28364.035,"text":"116主席會議117主席會議118主席會議119主席會議118主席會議"},{"start":28390.577,"end":28392.078,"text":"提出書面報告文字修正通過"},{"start":28415.834,"end":28441.341,"text":"一二三組結議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過一二四組結議 也是改文字專案改書面好 那就修正通過一二五組結議 也是專案改書面文字修正好 也是修正通過一二六組結議 遵照辦理召喚通過一二七組結議 也是建議改文字專案改書面那就修正通過了"},{"start":28443.119,"end":28448.143,"text":"文字修正改為書面報告有文字修正我們就修正通過"},{"start":28470.999,"end":28495.028,"text":"責任通過137主席有文字修正建議有送資料在好 那就文字修正通過138主席遵照辦理好 責任通過139主席遵照辦理好 責任通過140主席遵照辦理責任通過141主席遵照辦理責任通過142主席遵照辦理好 責任通過143主席遵照辦理好 責任通過144主席遵照辦理好 責任通過145主席遵照辦理"},{"start":28498.169,"end":28498.369,"text":"文字修正通過"},{"start":28526.582,"end":28528.723,"text":"155主決議154主決議155主決議156主決議157主決議158主決議159主決議"},{"start":28553.473,"end":28556.236,"text":"就專案報告啦好不好沒問題啦怎麼樣就這個啦部長專案報告沒問題啦"},{"start":28580.522,"end":28601.329,"text":"今天早上已經有提到包括院 院跟交通部都支持所以不用提什麼專案報告就會支持所以支持喔那就提書面 改書面是吧那都結印了是吧律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲�"},{"start":28611.116,"end":28618.879,"text":"提出編報告本案就是組結議就通過文書修正通過接下來就交通部署官有關於161案161案並委員會結議辦理162案組結議有沒有人見"},{"start":28636.533,"end":28654.418,"text":"好 照案通過 163 主決議有文字修正 那沒人見修正通過再來是 164 凍結一千萬元 是不是並委員會決議辦理改主決議好 改主決議 改主決議 那沒人見通過 165 並委員會決議辦理 沒人見通過再來是 再來是 166 案"},{"start":28663.2,"end":28663.881,"text":"166 改組決議167 通案辦理168 測案169"},{"start":28678.724,"end":28681.945,"text":"171改組結議沒有見通過172改組結議沒有見通過173並委員結辦裡沒有見通過174並委員結辦裡沒有見通過175測案"},{"start":28699.281,"end":28702.003,"text":"176 凍結100萬年改組決議177 併文接辦禮178 併文接辦禮179 改組決議180凍結五分之一"},{"start":28725.299,"end":28726.78,"text":"國道7號臨時改那個路線所以很多居民那個"},{"start":28761.481,"end":28775.924,"text":"請問交通部這邊有研擬妥善的方案嗎180是民宿的案子不是知道我順便問一下國企這個案子已經有溝通過了180就是維持"},{"start":28786.192,"end":28786.452,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":28811.344,"end":28828.191,"text":"國區的確在過程中因應工程需要做一些局部的調整這部分我們的高工局會跟地方政府討論過這樣的方案是正數比較少的方案會後再提供資料給委員長"},{"start":28832.133,"end":28832.233,"text":"主席"},{"start":28848.934,"end":28850.214,"text":"委員同意改組決議沒有意見通過"},{"start":28872.593,"end":28885.939,"text":"182182182案並委員會接一半禮,沒有意見通過183就撤案184就並委員會接一半禮,沒有意見通過185就改組結議,沒有意見通過186並委員會接一半禮,沒有意見通過187組結議,那照樣通過188組結議那個文字修改專案改書來組結議,文字修正通過"},{"start":28901.223,"end":28923.12,"text":"那189 組結議有文字修正 那就修正通過190 組結議 照樣通過191 組結議 那有文字修改 那就修正通過192 組結議有文字修正 那就修正通過193 組結議有文字修正 那就修正通過接下來就194案"},{"start":28925.282,"end":28925.482,"text":"201凍結十分之一"},{"start":28954.076,"end":28980.662,"text":"順照辦理好 那就 召喚通 召喚通過啦齁好沒有沒有沒有 不願會沒有動動少一點嘛 這行政 行政之一無所謂可以啦基本行政會議用而已啦多少 哪裡哪裡 哪裡來 找人去啦那救黨部啊好好 那就那個5%好"},{"start":28985.009,"end":29008.968,"text":"206 齁"},{"start":29009.268,"end":29035.901,"text":"這是這樣齁就是說在最近的這一個竹科公司的員工旅遊齁那在南部發生重大車禍造成事實的這一個遊覽車的事故啦齁結果去年在公路局的這一個遊覽車的評鑑竟然拿到假等啦齁那事實上這個司機的超速的問題非常嚴重齁紀錄也非常多所以就這部分的話我現在"},{"start":29036.721,"end":29055.976,"text":"比較在意的是說你這個評鑑的項目非常的草率那日本的評鑑項目事實上是一目了然包括就是說當一個公司的承辦人他要去選擇遊覽公司的時候你只要點日本的網站那你就可以看到包括"},{"start":29056.957,"end":29057.657,"text":"那還好吧"},{"start":29081.368,"end":29092.333,"text":"邀請專家跟民間代表建立一個獨立的遊覽車安全評鑑認證制度強化安全資訊公開等等提出一個書面報告"},{"start":29097.554,"end":29101.657,"text":"206案 病人接一半禮 提書面報告207案 凍結一億 會輸病人接一半禮好不好"},{"start":29125.286,"end":29128.267,"text":"董事長,那個改不是已經改好了嗎?"},{"start":29128.267,"end":29129.528,"text":"董事長,那個改不是已經改好了嗎?"},{"start":29129.528,"end":29131.728,"text":"董事長,那個改不是已經改好了嗎?"},{"start":29147.589,"end":29152.392,"text":"207跟208啦那你們不然就多動一點吧然後併在一起吧動結數一樣啦"},{"start":29175.748,"end":29198.322,"text":"董結束併委員會嘛,那報告另外一題嘛,這樣做個結議嘛因為委員會他已經凍結十分之一,就等於凍結八億多啦八億九啦委員會已經凍滿肚的沒關係啊,反正這因為是那個,就兩個都是一樣啦好不好,兩個併在一起凍五百啦,就這樣"},{"start":29200.319,"end":29202.08,"text":"請交通部還有公務局局長這邊盡快來協調一下好嗎"},{"start":29221.01,"end":29221.15,"text":"請他們盡快協調"},{"start":29238.297,"end":29240.578,"text":"這不要一直抹黑啦 柯董"},{"start":29264.221,"end":29286.691,"text":"這個人家講話的意思是插嘴本來就是應該要讓部長表示意見啊 人家是交通專家2100併委員接辦禮 沒有意見通過211那凍結5000萬元 我們就併委員接辦禮好不好他這邊已經先溝通就是200萬而已嘛 那就是凍200萬凍結200萬是吧 好"},{"start":29291.755,"end":29292.075,"text":"委員會見通告"},{"start":29305.482,"end":29326.168,"text":"213這個部分的話是希望說公總這邊針對這個客貨運業者那他的這個高峰業者要提出這個輔導改善的這個措施那這樣才是一個辦法基本上就是說你應該是有一個苛責機制調查輔導列管苛責機制等等之類的"},{"start":29330.157,"end":29339.14,"text":"那沒有關係啦 凍結束是要併委員會就好了嘛好 怎麼樣 併委員會啦那213 這個凍結束併委員會接一半禮入喔 免疫線通過 214214的部分就是說 這個隔熱紙的部分齁 那應該 這個國際標準早就已經存在這麼久了嘛"},{"start":29359.403,"end":29380.736,"text":"那公總一直到現在你還沒有去做納管那希望這公路局在兩個月內就格二指納管提出具體的檢測方法還有宣導期跟實施的期程你去一個順便報告好那這樣的話這個是要這"},{"start":29385.695,"end":29392.218,"text":"提書面報告,但是並委員結一半禮,如何?214並委員結一半禮,但是要提書面報告給提案人215並委員結一半禮,好不好?215是並委員結一半禮"},{"start":29411.852,"end":29412.032,"text":"結論就好了 講結論"},{"start":29441.37,"end":29444.972,"text":"這個就是2030的電動車,我們從113到119分7年,就是要把燃油車改成電動車我們現在就按照7年到119把它汰換完畢,就是公車的部分"},{"start":29460.644,"end":29469.911,"text":"現在進展怎麼樣最主要你要對預算他要凍結五分之一你有沒有意見好像你都沒有意見改組決議好不好改組決議改組決議凍少一點好不好請示範這樣要費用嗎好不好凍少一點"},{"start":29479.684,"end":29480.565,"text":"委員改為主決議員"},{"start":29505.158,"end":29505.779,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":29528.393,"end":29529.414,"text":"文字有修正 黨團已經蓋章"},{"start":29558.957,"end":29559.28,"text":"修正通過"},{"start":29564.054,"end":29574.603,"text":"228 照案通過229 文字有修正 黨團也蓋章2230 文字有修正 黨團已經蓋章231 文字修正 黨團已經蓋章232 照案通過233 文字有修正 沒有意見就修正通過2331"},{"start":29590.711,"end":29590.851,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":29619.275,"end":29622.096,"text":"234 通3 235 檢列100萬年 236 並委員會決議 237 主決議 238 建議文字修正"},{"start":29650.553,"end":29661.503,"text":"就修正,那就修正通過那239主席那也是一樣,建議文字修正那沒有意見修正通過,240主席我看一下啊好,修正的,修正的結束了"},{"start":29674.784,"end":29680.027,"text":"238暗記刪除,然後進度報告改進度書面報告239審議檢討後面加書面兩個字"},{"start":29700.39,"end":29701.29,"text":"239就這樣了240組協議有沒有見建議改書面報告"},{"start":29730.081,"end":29752.029,"text":"主決議文字修正提書面報告21黨團已經同意修正文字修正文字修正通過再來22遵照辦理詐騙通過就凍結十分之一23遵照辦理"},{"start":29758.797,"end":29769.785,"text":"同一個案子齁他就凍結凍結百分之二十喔病案凍結十分之一病案但是都要交報告是一定交好那就二十二二十三合併病案凍結百分之十這樣可以嗎"},{"start":29787.699,"end":29788.299,"text":"停一下 停一下"},{"start":29816.511,"end":29820.001,"text":"他說都要保留 所有部位都要保留 今天就這樣完"},{"start":29867.861,"end":29868.381,"text":"交通委員會結束"},{"start":29895.134,"end":29897.095,"text":"明天九點繼續開會就剩下兩個委員會"},{"start":29925.339,"end":29951.125,"text":"明天有兩個委員會 一個是司法及法處委員會 一個是社會福利及衛生環境委員會院長對不起 那個能不能再麻煩您一下就是我們有一些併委員會的決議的還有一些通商案 那因為我們有寫一些東西那是不是就是說這些案子雖然是併了委員會或者是通商 但是能宣告一下就是說他們也還是要把書面報告提給大家好不好"},{"start":29953.68,"end":29956.321,"text":"總裁會召集"},{"start":29994.617,"end":30000.721,"text":"所以院長明天是九點半嗎九點好就九點"},{"start":30004.324,"end":30005.224,"text":"副總裁副總裁"},{"start":30032.568,"end":30042.108,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":30074.798,"end":30083.805,"text":"主席"},{"start":30101.878,"end":30121.836,"text":"院長剛剛就說這個農業部會有第二輪那是否也是明天一起是不是農業部說會有第二輪還是說會有第二輪那也是明天是不是"},{"start":30135.111,"end":30161.108,"text":"第二輪了解是是是好了解好OK好好好對好好的"},{"start":30178.716,"end":30200.683,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":30231.781,"end":30233.902,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":30252.897,"end":30253.137,"text":"蘇瑞發展部"},{"start":30264.218,"end":30282.447,"text":"事由發展部所屬的預算首先介紹列席的所長事由發展部唐鳳部長接下來我們就開始看26案並委員節辦理有意見嗎沒有意見通過247案通案辦理28並委員節辦理沒有意見通過249"},{"start":30292.748,"end":30293.248,"text":"徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億"},{"start":30331.969,"end":30351.315,"text":"249、266、269、270、274、276、280、285、293、362、325、330、331、336趕快去溝通吧有關你賴世保委員所提的案我們都暫時保留好不好那今天就先處理明天你再如果說有方便的話明天的溝通我們第二輪就把它處理掉好不好好來那249就是保留"},{"start":30353.642,"end":30355.023,"text":"251、252、253、254、255、256、257、258通案處理"},{"start":30382.662,"end":30412.183,"text":"二五九改凍結百分之三沒有見之通過二六零併委員會結一半離沒有見通過然後二六一是不是併委員會結一半離委員長等一下這很奇怪這個二五零你說併委員會是吧委員會是什麼委員是凍結委辦會十分之一委辦會這個都是通案嘛"},{"start":30422.784,"end":30436.868,"text":"他有檢列也有凍結啦檢列是國外營運會嘛對啊 那凍結 就是說我們這個凍結的數目齁就併在那裡面就在十分之一裡面啦 就包含在裡面"},{"start":30440.471,"end":30440.491,"text":"好來"},{"start":30469.558,"end":30472.325,"text":"我們就已經到261261凍結十分之一是不是併委員的接辦禮因為"},{"start":30478.47,"end":30484.175,"text":"通過262 十分之一 並委員會決議辦理263 並委員會決議辦理 沒見通過264 並委員會決議辦理 沒見通過264 改組決議 264 改組決議"},{"start":30500.709,"end":30504.41,"text":"265通3266通3我們就通案處理265改組決議265改組決議265改組決議266通3我們就通案處理267"},{"start":30529.81,"end":30530.27,"text":"前述檢列該組結議"},{"start":30545.141,"end":30560.428,"text":"委員是凍結,這邊是檢列就是昨天問的,今天我們收到行政院的文說核定有改組織,你要讓我知道一下因為你這裡都沒送,人家普通都會...市長今天核定了,這個就測案了嘛來,這樣,267組喔測案吧"},{"start":30573.988,"end":30574.749,"text":"268凍結1200萬元269減劣3000萬元270也是保留"},{"start":30601.28,"end":30605.048,"text":"明天是不是請他來一下好不好報告七一 稟委員接辦你沒有見通過"},{"start":30607.199,"end":30609.76,"text":"272 凍結十分之一 273 凍結百分之十 273 凍結百分之十"},{"start":30634.214,"end":30635.354,"text":"274 檢列500萬就是賴斯堡委員的 我們就保留"},{"start":30665.905,"end":30678.195,"text":"275、276通3我們就通案處理276已經保留賴司保委員的保留再來就是277凍結1億元這怎麼處理並委員會這是並委員會決議辦車案"},{"start":30693.618,"end":30719.394,"text":"好 報七八並委員會接辦你有沒有意見通過報七九 邱總召有檢列五千萬年及凍結十分之一來 要保留好不好 要檢列是太大的保留可以嗎 保留 保留是可以還好是正常同意來 報八零 檢列 這個保留 這個是保留"},{"start":30720.543,"end":30727.367,"text":"281 測案282 併委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過283 併委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過284 併委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過285 286 改組結議沒有意見通過287 凍結十分之三"},{"start":30747.622,"end":30759.791,"text":"那議會委員會已經凍結十分之一啦好那怎麼樣併委員會併委員會如何可以啊好那是併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過那288改組決議沒有意見通過289併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過那290併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過291改組決議沒有意見通過292"},{"start":30775.643,"end":30779.388,"text":"邱總召292保留293檢列也是保留在委員的294凍結十分之一並委員會"},{"start":30792.5,"end":30797.641,"text":"296 改組結議 沒有意見通過297 改組結議 沒有意見通過298 改組結議 沒有意見通過299 組結議 有沒有意見"},{"start":30819.124,"end":30819.324,"text":"暫停會議暫停會議"},{"start":30842.917,"end":30849.338,"text":"306 主決議 307 主決議 308 主決議 309 主決議 310 主決議有做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過311 主決議 311 有一個新修正的版本311 主決議要做文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":30870.177,"end":30881.181,"text":"在312的組結議有做文書修正沒有見就修正通過313組結議召喚通過314組結議有修正文書修改那文書修改就修正通過再來就是315來組結議那沒有見通過"},{"start":30897.725,"end":30905.63,"text":"316 併委員結辦禮 沒有見通過317 凍結十分之三 前面已經凍結兩千萬這個是賴司法委員的 我們就保留318 是不是併委員結辦禮 沒有見通過319 併委員結辦禮 沒有見通過320 改組結議 沒有見通過"},{"start":30928.38,"end":30945.13,"text":"3.2.1 凍結500 已經改了是吧3.2.1 已經改處決意 但沒有一件通過3.2.2 3.2.3 都是通商 就通案處理3.2.2 是類似保援 那這個要保留啦3.2.4 測案是吧"},{"start":30961.199,"end":30983.917,"text":"三二五跟三二六賴思寶委員的這兩案就保留賴思寶這通案我們要保留三二五三二六那是通三的啦前面也有賴思寶的通案"},{"start":30992.141,"end":31007.212,"text":"還有322也是一樣的所以賴氏堡委員如果碰到通商科目我看就先保留在第二輪做一個處理啦沒關係啦明天才叫他一定要來不然我們就自己處理不管他總統結果怎麼樣叫他自己來"},{"start":31017.64,"end":31021.402,"text":"明天先去溝通沒有溝通我們就來處理啦"},{"start":31044.375,"end":31053.177,"text":"改組結議改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過"},{"start":31072.248,"end":31074.71,"text":"兵委員會兵委員會兵委員會結議辦理333"},{"start":31089.008,"end":31108.753,"text":"跟主席報告333有跟委員辦公室有同意他大概就是覺得還是要刪一百萬然後科目自行調整刪一百萬元科目自行調整那沒有見通過334改組結議334已經改組結議沒有見通過335減六兩議 凍結一議"},{"start":31118.11,"end":31125.577,"text":"來組結議好了有沒有改這個跟偉茂是有說明他覺得併委員會動10%這樣子併委員會已經有動10%併委員會併委員會結議辦理就對了是併委員會結議辦理好來336這個是保留好來337改動5%說明改動5%"},{"start":31145.893,"end":31151.415,"text":"併委員會已經動10%了所以就是併委員會的模式併委員會接辦理"},{"start":31162.028,"end":31190.573,"text":"好 再 欸 完不完結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了"},{"start":31199.154,"end":31199.274,"text":"主席"},{"start":31225.63,"end":31233.957,"text":"我們是不是行政院所屬的先離開?好,來,請,你們可以先離開我怕他們想到事情要跟我說了來,四大黨團有什麼話現在要..."},{"start":31252.769,"end":31262.876,"text":"明天9點保留在世保保留才40萬沒有啦 要去溝通 溝通完我不會處理阿你沒有人保留 你怎麼處理 抱歉因為經濟他也保留很久沒有人去溝通 我怎麼處理"},{"start":31293.53,"end":31295.651,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":31313.618,"end":31319.929,"text":"好明天九點繼續開會今天的會議到此為時現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"149020","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149020","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d65f283f6c67b2e0e5ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a03226e357ca2c70d75735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"11:34:16 - 11:43:39","影片長度":"00:09:23","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":563,"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:43:39+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T11:34:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":789,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（11時34分）謝謝主席，主席，我請一下許部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好，我們今天討論勞工退休金條例，我在這邊有一個問題想要請問你個人的看法，大概有一部分人，因為現在勞工自提的退休金是不可以自選操作標的。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["楊委員曜：部長在這個議題上，你的看法是覺得可以還是不可以？你比較傾向主張哪一個？現在是不行嘛？"],["許部長銘春：現在是不行……"],["楊委員曜：像私校退撫基金它大概已經可以了嘛？"],["許部長銘春：私校退撫是有……"],["楊委員曜：對，那勞工退休金有關勞工自提的部分，部長個人的看法是覺得？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，如果是個人的看法，因為我覺得退休金是勞工老年退休生活的一個保障，我們都希望它是完整的、不會有風險的，然後能夠穩健的獲利，不會因為有風險而導致他的退休金最後可能會完全受到損害，所以在這種情況下，我其實會……因為如果是自選的話，他必須自擔風險，自提的部分如果自選，他必須自擔風險，我是會比較擔心勞工這一部分如果當遇到像去年股債同時下跌兩、三成的時候，其實對勞工的損害是滿大的。所以在這種情況下，我認為這個部分我目前都會比較保守一點啦！"],["楊委員曜：部長的看法倒是跟我一致，因為我覺得勞工自提退休金，看起來日後是必須要來填補勞保年金的給付不足，共同建構勞工退休以後的生活保障，可是這又遇到一個問題，就是自提的部分其實是屬於他的財產，對不對？限制勞工自行選擇投資標的，這個本身就跟財產所有有衝突。","第二個，最重要的就是剛剛部長講的如何穩健獲利，因為自提的退休金假如一直放著，獲利不足，其實它根本趕不上通貨膨脹，我相信這是個很大的問題，特別是在勞保年金給付沒有辦法增加的情況下，我個人一直很關注勞退的部分，所以剛剛部長有講到穩健獲利，我們怎麼讓它穩健獲利？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，當然這幾年勞動基金的投資收益都還不錯，平均大概都有4.6。"],["楊委員曜：4.6%。"],["許部長銘春：對，4.6%，我們也就是慎選投資標的，不管是自操或委外，其實在整個績效上都有做一些要求，就是務必要讓我們勞工的老本能夠有一個好的收益，這個部分我們當然會持續來努力。"],["楊委員曜：因為是委由你們來操作，有最低獲利擔保，對不對？就是兩年的定期……"],["許部長銘春：有，報告委員，現在不管固提或自提，一定是保證獲利的，最少都有銀行2年定存利率的獲利保證，所以就是……現在當然是因為政府的限制，自提的部分沒有辦法去自選，但是我同時也保證他一定是獲利啦，就不會讓他的退休金短少。"],["楊委員曜：對，這個當然還需要做更深的研究跟廣泛的討論啦！因為我剛剛講過了，自提的部分其實還是勞工自己的錢嘛！"],["許部長銘春：所以我們勞動部態度上也是持開放的態度，傾聽各界的意見，但是我們基本上還是要站在保護勞工的立場。"],["楊委員曜：對，因為這個跟勞保給付其實是有相關聯的。","接下來，因為這次可能是本屆最後一次勞動部到委員會來，所以我還是必須要講一些數據，我一直覺得廣大勞工退休生活的保障其實是政府的責任，且再過幾年，問題馬上就會出現，我也知道改革的困難，因為勞工本來收入就低，要提高保費的話，阻力也大，而保費不增加，要怎麼提高、健全整個機制？這是政府要非常有智慧去面對，並且有勇氣去解決的。","我大概提供幾個數字給部長，就知道勞保年金的問題有多嚴重，像在澎湖這樣相對一般受薪階級薪資沒有那麼高的地方，其實我對於勞工的退休生活還滿憂心的。2022年勞工整體領到的給付大概是1萬8,294元，同一年臺北市最低生活費已經到了1萬8,682元，也就是說，勞工平均可以得到的年金給付，已經低於臺北市的最低生活費了，而且這種情況會隨著通貨膨脹越來越嚴重，有六成勞工年金給付低於2萬元。在這種情況下，我們還每天擔心勞保基金什麼時候會破產，這才是最大的問題。","部長，我想我在這一屆已經沒有能力也沒有機會可以幫廣大的勞工把這個問題處理好，但我還是希望至少將政府負擔最終給付責任的條文儘速入法，其實就算沒入法，還是長年在撥補，政府不大可能放任讓勞保倒；但入法的好處就是可以安定超過1,000萬勞工的心，讓他在工作時不用擔心退休後日子要怎麼過，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我們一起努力。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["楊委員曜：好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。","本日會議登記質詢委員已發言完畢。委員楊曜所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.81971875,"end":3.8109687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.40159375,"end":5.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.67909375,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.282218750000002,"end":14.290343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.594093750000003,"end":16.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.93971875,"end":24.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.292843750000003,"end":29.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.781593750000003,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.32909375,"end":38.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.13784375,"end":45.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.15471875,"end":45.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.32346875,"end":47.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.10784375,"end":48.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.81659375,"end":50.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.900968750000004,"end":49.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.21721875,"end":51.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.790968750000005,"end":53.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.18284375,"end":58.148468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.148468750000006,"end":60.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.182218750000004,"end":58.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.45221875,"end":66.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.83909375,"end":67.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.54784375,"end":70.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.54721875,"end":76.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.40284375,"end":79.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.00159375,"end":80.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.46971875,"end":82.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.87034375,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.38909375,"end":86.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.37596875,"end":88.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.91159375000001,"end":90.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.86909375,"end":92.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.75909375,"end":94.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.29034375,"end":100.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.02784375,"end":103.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.54221875,"end":105.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.66846875,"end":108.30096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.53721875000001,"end":109.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.25846875,"end":113.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.97096875000001,"end":115.43909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.13096875000001,"end":119.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.21471875,"end":128.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.61846875,"end":132.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.76096875000002,"end":137.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.91659375,"end":139.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.31284375,"end":144.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.66659375,"end":147.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.41721875000002,"end":148.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.58159375,"end":154.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.89346875,"end":151.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.74534375000002,"end":154.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.63971875000001,"end":156.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.76596875,"end":161.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.99721875,"end":164.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.58784375000002,"end":162.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.74784375000002,"end":165.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.97096875,"end":168.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.64596875,"end":173.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.06284375,"end":174.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.32846875,"end":177.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.23096875000002,"end":180.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.15034375000002,"end":181.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.45409375,"end":187.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.10284375,"end":190.60034375},{"speaker":"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11:34:07","影片長度":"00:07:20","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":440,"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:34:07+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T11:26:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":765,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時26分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["許部長銘春：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，您好。我們時間有限，我想問一下部長您有出現在最新這一本所有臺灣的爸爸媽媽幾乎都會看的雜誌，不知道您自己有沒有印象？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，就是有關友善家庭職場，我相信這個在勞動部的部分應該有非常多事情可以協助企業端、協助勞工端這邊做更多的改進。我想問一下部長，您在雜誌裡面提到各國勞動力人數的年增率是1.2%，其中在日本跟香港跟臺灣卻呈現負成長，關於這個缺工的問題或者是勞工本身在企業端工作的很多訴求，不知道部長您這邊在接受完這個雜誌的訪問之後，您認為友善家庭職場在勞動部這邊，如果您快速想到，您覺得您還能做些什麼事情協助勞工在勞動現場可以覺得更友善地被對待，然後也願意生養下一代？部長您覺得從勞動部的角度您可以做哪些事情？"],["許部長銘春：就是在職場能夠兼顧育兒，也就是在育兒環境這個部分還要再加強。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，那我就直接跟部長分享，在這個雜誌裡面，其實他們在3月份到5月份的時候先做了一個調查，年輕世代的爸爸媽媽對於自己到職場上實現自我的專長、實現自我的天份這件事情，其實大家對於工作是有些想像跟企圖心的，可是一旦把這個企圖心切回到職場現實的時候，部長，我先考您一下，您覺得年輕的爸媽他們在意職場的哪些因素，會讓他們更願意留在職場，或者是在職場實踐自我當中還願意生育下一代？您覺得年輕世代的爸媽在意什麼樣的事情？"],["許部長銘春：大概是在托兒部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，一個是托兒，那還有呢？"],["許部長銘春：還有就是可能希望更有彈性的能夠去兼顧家庭。"],["陳委員培瑜：彈性的兼顧家庭。還有呢？好，那沒關係，部長，我跟您報告，第一個是彈性工時，占65%的爸爸媽媽最在意有沒有辦法有彈性工時。第二個如同您說的，企業有沒有機會設置臨托或者是幼兒園。第三個是居家上班，也就是在疫情之後遠距工作的可能性。這三個比例是年輕世代的爸媽最在意的事情。可是我想要請部長看一下這個投影片的上端，其實大部分的父親跟母親都有想要工作的企圖心，你看喔，在兼職工作或是全職工作的比例都很高，對嗎？全職育兒的比例其實不高，也就是說，這個世代年輕的爸媽他們對於自己在職場上是有些想像的，可是勞動部有沒有機會提供這樣的職場環境給予勞工們？部長，您覺得呢？"],["許部長銘春：就是說可能有些職場可以提供彈性，有些職場可能比較不容易，我覺得我們應該先從可以提供彈性工時的這些職場鼓勵雇主能夠來落實。"],["陳委員培瑜：那勞動部的角度呢？我們來看一下，其實勞動部一直有一個工作生活平衡獎，也就是說勞動部在這個議題上並不是沒有作為，可是我們來看一下這個評審項目包含這些，關於生活平衡獎，勞動部的生活平衡獎裡面有一個彈性工作獎，可能是彈性工時或者是彈性工作地點，也就是說，其實勞動部可能在幾年前就意識到這個事情是重要的，或者是友善家庭的部分，勞動部在這個獎項裡面有一個單獨的項目叫做友善家庭。可是我們來看勞動部相關的獎勵、鼓勵措施當中，對於企業端實質上更積極的鼓勵或者是互動溝通，以往都是比較被動的，他就是被動接受企業的報名，報名之後他們得到的可能就是一個獎牌，然後有1萬塊的相關獎品，也不是獎金。我想要問一下，如果勞動部自己都已經辦了相關的獎項跟比賽，而且是每一年都做喔！不是只有做1、2年，其實勞動部在這件事情上是有一些想法跟態度的，可是可不可以更加積極去回應更多年輕世代父母親的需求，部長您自己的觀點怎麼看這件事情？"],["許部長銘春：其實我們辦這個獎項是讓這些算是幸福的企業有一些友善勞工的作為，能夠讓更多的企業來學習，以他們做一個標竿，所以獎牌、獎金是一個honer，但是沒辦法給他們很多的獎金。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果我們不談獎牌、獎金，部長您覺得在勞動部的角度還可以做更多什麼事情？我先提供一個數字，這也是勞動部對這個雜誌說的，勞動部統計臺灣受僱者在2020年平均年總工時為2,008個小時，在39個主要國家中排名第六，甚至我們高於南韓的1,904個小時，高於日本的1,626個小時，也就是說勞動部你們其實已經知道要做相關的事情，不管是透過鼓勵措施或是相關企業對話，可是可不可以更積極的回應更多年輕世代父母親的需求？","我再跟部長報告最後一個議題，其實今年諾貝爾獎的得主也提到了，女性並沒有真的想要離開職場，而是整個職場的環境不友善，讓年輕女性他們必須要離開；而且部長您在受訪裡面也提到，臺灣有一個很大量的離職潮是在30歲以後，部長您一定知道原因嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：30歲以後就是要開始步入家庭、照顧小孩，可是如果都落在女性身上，其實臺灣高學歷女性的比率跟他們在求學階段能力表現並不輸男性。部長您身為女性的部長，您自己怎麼看待這件事情？可不可以在勞動部內有更積極、更多的討論跟相關的規劃措施？不管是透過獎勵、透過更多跟職場的對話，讓勞工在現場真的可以感受到，而不是只有民間雜誌辦了這樣的票選，或者是像這樣的獎勵。但是勞動部可能在這個議題上，其實還不夠跟進民間的需求。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員，這部分的確勞動部還要再有更積極的作為，這邊我也會要求相關的業務單位一起來討論，因為這個可能牽涉到跨單位……"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["許部長銘春：我們會讓企業能夠發展更多友善的措施，然後政府會有一些鼓勵、獎勵讓他們願意來做，這個部分我會責成相關業務單位來……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們真的非常希望勞動部在後續可以做出更積極的事情，我相信部長你在這個雜誌受訪時，你的心裡面一定也是在意這個事情，而且你也願意認同這個價值。以上謝謝部長、謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，有請楊曜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.37596875,"end":9.075968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.93659375,"end":10.814093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.825968750000001,"end":25.292843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.028468750000002,"end":17.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.54159375,"end":29.106593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.65534375,"end":48.242843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.49471875,"end":29.781593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.996593750000002,"end":31.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.56596875,"end":32.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.782843750000005,"end":67.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.71659375,"end":73.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.43721875,"end":73.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.09534375,"end":77.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.62221875,"end":78.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.39409375000001,"end":83.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.13596875,"end":88.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.54909375000001,"end":86.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.72596875,"end":124.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.16721875,"end":129.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.61409375,"end":131.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.57596875000002,"end":131.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.11159375,"end":136.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.68471875,"end":138.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.33846875,"end":140.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.89909375000002,"end":145.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.89846875,"end":153.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.76221875000002,"end":190.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.15721875,"end":193.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.65471875,"end":193.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.27909375000002,"end":199.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.98284375,"end":202.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.45909375000002,"end":208.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.63971875000001,"end":210.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.10346875000002,"end":212.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.48721875,"end":223.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.57409375,"end":226.18971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.79721875,"end":254.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.87721875000003,"end":283.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.23971875,"end":287.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.22221875,"end":291.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.36096875000004,"end":292.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.60971875,"end":292.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.60534375000003,"end":296.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.96346875,"end":297.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.02659375,"end":301.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.85721875,"end":302.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.97096875,"end":304.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.09721875,"end":308.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.75909375000003,"end":363.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.61971875,"end":363.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.85596875000005,"end":380.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.96721875000003,"end":397.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.72409375,"end":398.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.50034375,"end":402.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.68534375,"end":408.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.32159375000003,"end":410.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.81909375000004,"end":413.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.88221875000005,"end":412.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.37971875000005,"end":416.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.82659375000003,"end":419.83034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.10034375000004,"end":421.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.70346875,"end":427.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4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«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":399.238,"end":425.368,"text":"謝謝委員我想這個部分的確勞動部還要再更有積極的作為那這邊我也會要求相關的業務單位一起來討論因為這個可能牽涉到跨單位那我們會來怎麼樣來讓企業能夠發展更多有效的措施然後政府又有一些鼓勵、獎勵來讓他們願意來做那這個部分我想我會來責成"},{"start":426.508,"end":428.089,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會議"}]}},{"id":"149018","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149018","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d6b042a0f393a6d701ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322e9d50a309363faa25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:12:32 - 11:26:39","影片長度":"00:14:07","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":847,"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:26:39+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T11:12:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":719,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時12分）請許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我今天還是想要跟勞動部討論關於工安的問題，你覺得我們臺灣的工安，目前的預警、預防做得怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：還要再加油啦！"],["洪委員申翰：還要再加油，是不是？部長，我們最近看到還是發生很多起嚴重的工安意外，我請部長看一下下面這幾則新聞。這是昨天發生在捷運信義線東延段施工的工安意外，目前有一名工人墜落命危；再下面一起，這一起是11月底的時候發生在林口的工安意外，這個意外事件跟臺中中捷的事件很像，都是吊車斷裂掉落，這次砸在公車亭，但是這個事件還好，人跑得快，沒有被砸傷。部長，這些發生在工作場所或者是生活周遭的工安事故，其實現在擔心的不只是勞工，連附近的居民都很擔心，部長，你可以體會跟瞭解嗎？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你知道如果住家附近的工地發生事故，有鷹架或是這些起重機的吊臂突然掉下來，你走在附近，你會不會有點擔心？會嗎？"],["許部長銘春：會。"],["洪委員申翰：會喔，好。大家都很擔心，可是現在看到這麼多的新聞，我的辦公室也會接到民眾的電話，大家會來詢問這些發生在附近的案件，到底政府有沒有去檢查？檢查完以後有沒有改善？有沒有去罰？其實大家都在問這個問題喔。"],["許部長銘春：都有。"],["洪委員申翰：所以現在民眾很擔心這沒有督導，也很擔心這些災難會發生在自己的身上，更擔心會不會發生就像臺中林淑雅老師的這個事件。部長，你會不會想預防這些悲劇？"],["許部長銘春：當然。"],["洪委員申翰：如果可以建立預警機制的話，你會不會想建立？"],["許部長銘春：當然要建立。"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長，我相信你的回答是這樣。那現在臺灣的建築工地這麼多，勞動部可能也不一定有量能一一去進行勞檢，所以我自己覺得這裡面有一個很關鍵的事情是要怎麼把高風險的名單建立起來，甚至對外揭露可能很重要，部長同意嗎？"],["許部長銘春：同意。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，其實我在去年4月曾經開了一場記者會，這場記者會的主題叫做「沒有死傷的工安事故就沒人管」，在這場記者會上面我有要求勞動部應該彙整並公開工安事故的紀錄還有後續勞檢的紀錄，在今年5月的時候我其實也質詢過勞動部，當時勞動部的李俊俋次長也承諾會建立一個公開查詢的系統，把勞檢相關的處理紀錄放在這個系統中，可以供大家查詢，其核心的概念就是希望讓大家可以知道高風險的場域、高風險的職場、高風險的地方，。部長，我認為這個要求其實真的並不高，只要有發生意外，勞動部有去勞檢也做出處分，其實就讓大家知道相關的處分嘛！我們不是偷偷摸摸的處分，對不對？尤其是這個工安事件如果是火災、爆炸、化學品洩漏、鷹架倒塌、外牆倒塌，就算沒有死傷，但是這應該都是職安高風險的地方，部長同意嗎？"],["許部長銘春：同意。"],["洪委員申翰：沒有死傷，但是發生這種事情，也是高風險的地方啊！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["洪委員申翰：沒有死傷可能只是這次運氣好啊！就像剛才講的在公車亭的人，可能只是上面的人跑得快啊！部長，後來勞動部做了什麼？在我做了這個要求以後，部長知道勞動部後來做了什麼嗎？署長知不知道？"],["許部長銘春：我們有開會，署長可以說明。"],["鄒署長子廉：有找大家來討論。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，後來職安署創了一個「媒體報導重大災害訊息」，媒體有報導的才放上來，但是請部長看一下，從這些內容，其實我們都不會知道事故發生的地點在哪裡，也不知道是哪一個廠商，後續到底發生什麼或者有沒有改善什麼，我們在這個「媒體報導重大災害訊息」裡面都看不到。所以如果民眾看完之後回到勞動部的裁罰系統裡面，因為他也不知道發生日期跟發生地點，所以他也不知道到底是不是同一個案件。我在這邊提醒勞動部一件事情，就是現在我們看到你們的這個系統，甚至是直接貼上來，把職災受害者的姓名直接公布出來，然後公布一年多了都沒有拿掉。部長，我們發現這個系統是該公布的沒公布，不該公布的卻把它公布在上面，已經一年多了，都沒有拿下來，反而是不該被揭露的受害者姓名被放在上面。部長，你覺得這個系統需不需要改善？"],["許部長銘春：委員，這個要改善，像這個系統做這樣的揭露，我覺得是很不OK的。我所理解的是他們在明年1月1日馬上會有一個系統上線，就是我們勞動部有一個違反勞動法令事業單位查詢系統，有關職安衛的部分會增加發生日期、發生地的欄位，到時候就是如果有發生職災，我們的檢查還有處分等部分都會在這邊揭露。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你知不知道其實你們有開了一個研商會議，這個研商會議所公布的範圍限縮在職安法第三十七條第三項，也就是勞動部已經有去檢查和處分的案件裡面，只有發生勞工死亡或重傷才要公布發生日期跟發生地點，我不清楚你知不知道這件事情，就是把它限縮了！所以我的意思是什麼？我更簡單地跟大家說，像我們現在已經發生的、已經去勞檢、裁罰的這個中捷事件，還有這次林口吊車吊臂斷裂的事件，按照現在職安法第三十七條第三項裡面，對不起，按照你們召開的研商會議的紀錄，都是不用公開的喔！因為裡面沒有勞工死亡，對不起，中捷事件死亡的是乘客林淑雅　老師，不是勞工死亡，所以按照你們現在研商會議的內容，像中捷事件，像剛才說的這個林口吊車吊臂斷裂事件，都是不用公開的喔！許部長，我們既然說要公開，為什麼不把事情給做到位？如果大家上去查發現，明明這麼嚴重的中捷事件，結果上面居然沒有紀錄，不用公開，民眾的感受是什麼？部長，你知不知道現在我們要公布的範圍被嚴重限縮，只有勞工死亡才要公開，所以中捷事故是不用公開的。"],["許部長銘春：我是覺得職安署要再整個檢討一下，這件事情委員也關心好幾次，我覺得我們要做就把它做好，該揭露就揭露啦！"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我知道職安署會說這是法規問題，我要說這件事情其實早在環境部還在環保署的時候，也就是它還是署的時候就都已經做到了，在他們的系統裡面，其實裁處的日期、裁處的公司名稱、違反的日期都一清二楚，我甚至都曾經建議過勞動部，你甚至都可以把……假如它有改善，你也可以把它放到網路上面，我也沒意見，它做不好的地方，我們公布，它後來有改善，以後的結果你也可以公布，我也都沒意見，不要讓這個廠商覺得好像犯錯一件事情，我就被貼標籤一輩子，你說我已經改善了，你們去查，它改善了，你要公布，我也沒意見，但把事情給揭露就是預警機制啊！這是把高風險的狀況給預警出來。我認為現在職安署不乾不脆，甚至自己限縮，為什麼環保署做得到的事情勞動部做不到？署長，為什麼？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們職安法對有些項目是沒有授權揭露，我想或許明年職安法修法的時候把這個法規授權更有效的讓我們來執行，我想這是我們會先處理的。至於委員這兩個月一直督導我們、push我們，非常感謝，因為揭露資訊，讓民眾有來查的空間，我們也認為是非常核心的重點。至於說是全部都揭露，我們有一些法規的部分，我個人覺得還是要有法規授權比較得當。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，對你這個說法我要挑戰，這是你們做的行政處分欸，你們做的行政處分有什麼好不能揭露的？你們是偷偷摸摸嗎？你們自己去勞檢有處罰，這是你們做的行政處分，為什麼不能揭露？只要把必要的個資資訊隱蔽起來，什麼地方不能揭露？你告訴我，這是你們的行政處分，我沒有要去公布他們的商業機密啊！你只要把個資隱蔽起來，為什麼不能揭露？你給我一個理由。署長，這跟法規授權……對不起，這是你們的行政處分欸，你們去勞檢以後，只是因為沒有勞工死亡，為什麼這樣就不能揭露？我聽不懂，我知道有法規授權更好，但我完全聽不懂，為什麼你們的行政處分不能讓社會知道，難道現在勞動部網站上所有公開的行政處分，都是有法規，都一條一條授權才可以嗎？我不知道為什麼行政處分不能夠讓社會大眾知道。"],["許部長銘春：委員，沒關係，我請職安署好好的把這件事情做好，相關如果是有牽涉到他們疑慮的法規範的部分，我會請法務司這邊來幫忙，我們務必要把預警的一些機制建立好。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，我要提醒一件事情，之前我們在修職安法的時候，我們其實也討論過揭露的問題，當時職安署跟大家的說法都是說不要寫太細啦！結果現在不要寫太細變成你們不揭露的理由了。"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，職安法是102年修的。"],["洪委員申翰：不是，我是說當時我們在討論相關事情的時候，我們都說我們不要寫太細，我現在的意思是說，署長，這些是可以揭露的事情，沒有不行，只是你要做或不做，我覺得不用拿法規來搪塞，有法規當然更好。"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["洪委員申翰：但我認為社會大眾沒辦法接受像中捷這麼離譜的事情，居然在上面完全看不到，像剛才說林口的這個吊車吊臂的事情，大家看不到，我覺得這是大家沒辦法接受的事情。部長，大概多久時間可以把這個系統給處理好？不是只是推出一個系統來而已，而是把該公開的，而且是真正能夠達到預警效果的，我要求這件事已經要求很久，我不是要求為了公開而公開，我不是為了這個事情，我不是要求形式上面你給我一個交代，我們是希望有達到預警效果的，真正把高風險的地方可以公開出來。","我都說了，你要說它已經有改善，你把它改善的狀況也公開出來，我都不反對，你讓大家知道這個雇主或者是這個老闆他有做了努力，我也不反對，但現在不是啊！我覺得現在像擠牙膏一樣，一點、一點、一點，可是整個看起來就達不到預警機制的效果啊！部長，你覺得多久時間可以把這事情給做好？"],["鄒署長子廉：金額的部分確實要請法務司來幫忙……"],["許部長銘春：講一個時間嘛。"],["鄒署長子廉：2個月我們來處理。"],["洪委員申翰：2個月是不是？好，部長、署長，2個月的時間好不好？我同意2個月的時間，但我們就把它做到位好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["洪委員申翰：不要再找理由牽拖了，我已經質詢很多次了，但每一次都是這樣擠牙膏一點、一點的，坦白說，我是很失望的，可以嗎？麻煩部長好好督導這個事情。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。有請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 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案。"},{"start":70.7,"end":97.567,"text":"這一起是11月底的時候發生在林口的公安意外這個意外的事件跟臺中終結的事件很像都是吊車斷裂掉落砸在公車亭但在這個事件還好人跑得快沒有被砸傷不想這些發生在工作場所或者是生活周遭公安的事故其實現在擔心的不只是勞工囉"},{"start":99.271,"end":122.426,"text":"連附近的居民都很擔心,部長你可以體會跟了解嗎?是。部長所以如果你知道如果住家附近的工地發生事故有鷹架或者是這些其中的吊壁工人掉下來你走在附近你會不會有點擔心?會。會嗎?會。會齁,好。大家都很擔心啊可是現在看到這麼多的新聞齁"},{"start":124.065,"end":152.816,"text":"我的辦公室其實也會接到民眾的電話大家會來詢問這些發生在附近的案件到底政府有沒有去檢查檢查完以後有沒有改善有沒有去罰其實大家都要問這個問題所以現在民眾很擔心這沒有督導那也很擔心這些災難會發生在自己的身上更擔心會不會就像臺中的林淑雅老師的這個事件"},{"start":154.451,"end":166.499,"text":"不然這些悲劇你會不會想預防當然如果可以建立預警機制的話會不會想建立當然要建立不然我相信你的回答是這樣"},{"start":169.985,"end":185.266,"text":"現在台灣的建築工地這麼多勞工不可能也不一定有量能一一的去勞檢所以我自己覺得這裡面一個很關鍵的事情是要怎麼把高風險的名單給建立起來甚至對外揭露可能很重要部長同意嗎同意"},{"start":187.16,"end":215.289,"text":"在去年的四月我其實曾經開了一場記者會這場記者會的主題叫做沒有死傷的公安事故沒人管在這場記者會上面我其實要求勞動部應該彙整並公開公安事故的紀錄還有後續勞檢的紀錄那在今年五月的時候我其實也質詢過勞動部那當時勞動部的李俊逸次長那也承諾會建立一個公開查詢的系統"},{"start":216.553,"end":219.514,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":235.458,"end":250.985,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第"},{"start":261.26,"end":283.398,"text":"沒有死傷但發生這些事情也是高風險的地方啊沒死傷可能只是這次運氣好啊就像剛才在公車停可能只是下面的人跑得快啊但部長後來勞動部做了什麼我在做這個要求後部長知不知道勞動部後來做了什麼部長知不知道我們有開會部長後來治安署創了一個叫做媒體報導重大災害訊息"},{"start":290.784,"end":308.616,"text":"將媒體有報導的才放上來但請部長看一下這些內容其實我們都不會知道事故發生的地點在哪裡也不知道是哪個廠商後續到底發了什麼或者有沒有改善什麼在這一個媒體重大災害訊息裡面我們都看不到我們都看不到"},{"start":311.69,"end":338.501,"text":"所以如果民眾看完回到勞動部的裁罰系統裡面因為他也不知道發生日期跟發生地點所以他也不知道到底是不是同一個案件我這邊提醒勞工部一件事情就是你們的現在甚至我們看到你們的這個系統甚至喔直接貼上來直接把職災的受害者的姓名直接公布出來喔然後公布一年多都沒有拿掉喔"},{"start":339.611,"end":358.525,"text":"所以部長這個系統我們發現是該公佈的沒公佈不該公佈的卻把它公佈在上面一年多沒有拿下來反而不該被揭露的受害者不能被放在上面所以部長你覺得這個系統需不需要改善"},{"start":360.207,"end":371.614,"text":"議員,這個要改善。這樣的一個系統這樣的揭露我覺得很不OK。所以我所理解的是他們目前"},{"start":372.967,"end":398.473,"text":"在明年1月1日馬上會上線的就是我們一個勞動部違反勞動法律世界單位財運系統有關職安位的部分會增加有發生日期發生地的這個欄位那大概這個部分應該就是到時候就是說我們有這個職災的我們也檢查還有那個"},{"start":403.315,"end":430.727,"text":"處分的部分都會在這邊揭露。部長你知不知道其實你們開了一個研商會議這個研商會議公佈的範圍限縮在職安法第37條第三項也就是勞動部已經有去檢查和處分的案件裡只有勞工死亡跟重傷才要公佈發生日期跟發生地點我不知道你知不知道這件事情他把他限縮了所以我的意思是什麼更簡單跟大家說像是我們現在已經發生的"},{"start":432.435,"end":459.955,"text":"已經去勞檢裁罰的終結的這個事件還有這次林口吊車斷裂事故的事件按照現在的職安法第37條第三項裡面對不起按照你們召開的研商會議的記錄都是不用公開的喔因為裡面沒有勞工死亡對不起死亡的是終結事件死亡的是陳克林蘇亞老師不是勞工死亡"},{"start":461.934,"end":484.233,"text":"所以按照你們現在研商會議的內容像終結事件像是剛才說的這個林口吊車斷裂事件都是不用公開的喔徐副長我們說既然說要公開為什麼不把就把事情給做到位如果大家上去查發現欸"},{"start":487.591,"end":512.527,"text":"明明這麼嚴重的終結的事件結果在上面居然沒有記錄不用公開民眾的感受是什麼?部長你知不知道現在我們的要公佈的範圍被嚴重限縮只有勞工死亡才要所以終結事故是不用公開的這個齁我是覺得治安署你們再要再整個再檢討一下啦我覺得"},{"start":513.294,"end":520.86,"text":"這件事情我覺得委員關心好幾次我覺得我們要做就把它做好該揭露的就揭露了"},{"start":524.441,"end":551.627,"text":"我想說這件事情其實環境部還在環保署的時候還是署的時候其實都已經做到了啦在他們的系統裡面其實採儲的日期採儲的公司名稱違反的日期其實都一清二楚我甚至曾經都建議過勞動部你甚至都可以把假如他有改善你也可以把他放到網路上面去我也沒意見"},{"start":553.713,"end":570.527,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12條條文修正草案：立法院第13屆第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14"},{"start":573.169,"end":584.288,"text":"這是把高風險的狀況給預警出來現在我認為現在治安署不乾不脆甚至自己先說為什麼環保署做得到的事情為什麼勞工部做不到?署長為什麼?"},{"start":589.123,"end":611.528,"text":"我們執法法對有些項目是沒有授權揭露這邊我們想或許明年我們執法修法的時候把這個法規授權更有效的讓我們來做執行我想這是我們會先處理的那至於說委員這兩次這兩個月一直督導我們push我們我們非常感謝因為揭露資訊讓民眾來的空間都是我們也是認為是非常核心的重點"},{"start":612.188,"end":638.76,"text":"那至於說是全部都揭露我們有一些法規的部分的我個人覺得還是要有法規所以比較得當了署長我對你這個說法我要挑戰這是你們做的行政處分欸你們做的行政處分有什麼好不能揭露的你們是偷偷摸摸嗎你們自己去勞檢有處罰這是你們做的行政處分為什麼不能揭露只要把必要的各自的資訊給隱蔽起來"},{"start":642.753,"end":653.001,"text":"這什麼地方不能揭露你告訴我這是你們行政處分我沒有要去公佈他們的商業機密啊你只要把個資隱蔽起來為什麼不能揭露你給我一個理由署長這跟法規授權對不起這是你們的行政處分欸你們去勞檢以後只是因為他沒有勞工死亡為什麼這樣就不能揭露"},{"start":672.574,"end":693.308,"text":"我聽不懂我知道有法規授權更好但我完全聽不懂為什麼你們行政處分不能讓社會知道難道現在勞動部網站上面的所有公開的行政處分都是有法規都有一條一條授權才可以嗎我不知道為什麼行政處分不能夠讓社會大眾知道那個沒關係我請治安署這邊齁把這件事情"},{"start":701.718,"end":721.431,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第"},{"start":729.994,"end":748.803,"text":"報告委員責任法是102年修的不是我說當時我們在討論相關的事情的時候我們都會說我們不要寫太細我現在意思是說市長事實是可以揭露的事情沒有不行只是你要做或不做我覺得不用拿法規來搪塞有法規當然更好"},{"start":750.834,"end":761.926,"text":"但我認為社會大眾沒辦法接受像終結這麼離譜的事情居然在上面完全看不到像剛才說林口的這個吊車吊幣的事情大家看不到我覺得這大家沒辦法接受的事情是不是可以部長"},{"start":765.395,"end":768.417,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":796.797,"end":820.537,"text":"你讓大家知道這個僱主或者是這個老闆他有做的努力我也不反對但現在不是啊我覺得現在是這個像擠牙膏一樣一點一點一點可是整個看起來就達不到預警機制的這個效果啊部長你覺得多久時間我們可以把這事情給做好金額的部分確實要請保護師來幫忙不是講一個時間嘛"},{"start":823.753,"end":824.434,"text":"兩月我們要處理好了。"}]}},{"id":"149017","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149017","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d63c5fcf9d8669f912ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322c53c89e6150c5b455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱泰源","委員發言時間":"11:01:26 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11:12:24","影片長度":"00:10:58","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":658,"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:12:24+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T11:01:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":667,"blocks":[["邱委員泰源：（11時1分）謝謝召委。主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["許部長銘春：委員好。"],["邱委員泰源：部長，有關今天的主題，我們都很關心勞工的福利，很多委員也都提了很多的見解，我想對於我們未來在修正不管是政策或規定等各方面應該有大的幫助，我都很願意跟大家一起來共同努力。有一些另外的主題可能我們以前也關心，現在我再請教一下。","我想勞動力的穩定還是未來臺灣要一直去注意的事情，這樣才能跟人比拚嘛！看起來勞動力來源問題的解決應該有四個方向啦，這個我們以前有討論過嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["邱委員泰源：第一個是生育率提高，這個還有在拚嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有，這個我們現在就是各部會努力啦，國家跟你一起養，希望能提高生育率。"],["邱委員泰源：好。第二個就是促進中高齡及高齡就業，這個等一下我再請教。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["邱委員泰源：再來是怎麼樣讓可能想要或者動機有沒有都可以的勞動人口來彌補我們現在職場上所需要的，第四個則是剛剛林為洲委員也有提到的擔心及各方面等等，這個我們都會謹慎來進行，我想這幾個方向是大家過去一直在討論跟努力的。","我們來看一下資料，資料顯示與其他國家相比，我們的退休平均年齡好像比較早，不曉得你們那邊有沒有相關統計？再回來工作的就業率好像也比較低，部長，你們從過去到現在這段時間的打拚有沒有碰到什麼困難？"],["許部長銘春：困難就是說，第一個我是覺得以雇主的刻板印象，對於中高齡、高齡的就業者，或者是二度就業的婦女，會認為他們在體力或各方面可能會不足，所以這個部分我們要花很多時間去做溝通，其實這些人都還是壯世代啦，希望大家能夠讓這些壯世代的人有工作的機會，我們現在覺得比較困難的是這個部分。至於其他在技能或專業上有不足的，這個倒是沒有問題，勞動部的職訓資源都會全力來幫忙。","另外，我們也有給雇主獎助、給勞工獎勵，希望他們能夠重返職場或續留職場，目的就是希望能夠讓整個中高齡、高齡者等壯世代的勞參率能夠提高。"],["邱委員泰源：好，其實以前為了長照的照顧，我們大概20年前曾經在雲林那邊推動，讓那些65歲、70歲等還沒有到75歲的退休者來照顧75歲以上的老人啦，不過那個時候是用志工的方式啦，也真的在媒介喔，很努力在媒介，後來可能也沒有延續，但這也是創造了一些模式啦，後續可能不一定有延續，但總是有創造一些模式出來。他山之石可以攻錯，我個人的感覺啦，聽說日本好像有滿多年紀比較大的人都出來做那種他們可能做得了的工作，甚至是在餐飲業的服務。"],["許部長銘春：對，服務業的部分。"],["邱委員泰源：當然可能很多人希望在餐飲業服務的人是比較年輕一點，但是有些餐飲我覺得只要有人來把它處理好就好了。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["邱委員泰源：這個部分我們能不能去瞭解一下日本是怎麼做的，或是其他國家是怎麼做的？"],["許部長銘春：這個部分當然就是說，可能傳統上他們就比較善用這些中高齡、高齡等銀髮族的人力啦，我們現在也在鼓勵雇主，看看是不是可以參考日本的經驗，因為我們現在勞動力短缺嘛，希望這些雇主能夠，畢竟中高齡、壯世代是一個很重要的勞動力來源啊，其實這些人的服務也會讓我們覺得比較有溫度、比較親切，所以我們現在也是鼓勵雇主來進用啦，也獎勵這些中高齡、高齡者進到像剛剛委員所講的餐飲業的服務職場，現在也有一些成果啦，譬如說有些新開的飯店，我們就會去幫它媒合，就是我們進場去幫它媒合這些中高齡或高齡者，讓他們在勞動力的來源上能夠更迅速地去獲得填補。"],["邱委員泰源：好，我想我們有在做，當然就要一直持續去檢討成果，看怎麼樣有精進的策略嘛，這可能要不斷的努力啦！"],["許部長銘春：對、對。"],["邱委員泰源：這樣才能改變文化，改變大家的心態嘛。當然在體能方面也是一個問題，但是這個部分我相信只要媒合適當的……"],["許部長銘春：體能部分當然沒有問題，我們也在跟雇主溝通，其實我們可以有專家進去幫它做職務再設計，讓整個流程更適合這些壯世代的工作者。再來就是我們有輔具，輔具的部分是只要聘用這些壯世代勞工，每人每年有10萬塊的輔具費用可以來補助，這個都可以減輕他們在工作上譬如說要搬重或者各種不便，這個部分我們也一直在做一些宣導讓雇主知道。"],["邱委員泰源：我們以前在推這個計畫、法案的時候，當然我們也擔心這可能會搶到年輕人的位置，可是畢竟還是有很多人是不能陷在那個困境的，像沒錢的怎麼辦？很多啊，像我們在弄健保也是很痛苦啊，我想國家、政府還有醫界也都很頭痛啊，但總是要創造它的價值，不能說就卡死在那裡，當然這可能要靠我們的智慧嘛，我想對於這個部分，很多政策不是不能做，而是怎麼把它做得好，這個部分可能……"],["許部長銘春：是，我們現在其實是整體缺工啦，所以不會有那種去搶青年人工作的問題。"],["邱委員泰源：部長，我請教你，你覺得我們現在的年輕人都跑去哪邊工作？好像很多行業都缺人力，年輕人都在家裡，還是他們家裡有錢都不用出來工作？你們有沒有去統計一下？"],["許部長銘春：其實很多都到服務業、批發零售業那邊去啦。"],["邱委員泰源：批發零售業？有需要那麼多人喔？你們有去瞭解現在的年輕人都跑去哪裡工作嗎？"],["許部長銘春：是，就是……"],["邱委員泰源：還是現在年輕人的心態是覺得沒關係，我們以前求個職業就是想要求穩定、能夠長久，是不是大家現在的心態因時代所趨及潮流而改變了？那我們也要跟著時代來考慮一下啊！"],["許部長銘春：是，那個……"],["邱委員泰源：不然我們政策走我們的，結果跟現代的年輕人沒辦法結合也是……"],["許部長銘春：大概有七成的年輕人喜歡在服務業啦，大概有七成的年輕人，畢業後或剛畢業的年輕人喜歡在服務業啦，但是我們現在其實也有投資青年就業方案，希望把它導向重點產業……"],["邱委員泰源：這個將來當然也可以從教育，如果覺得哪些從小時候就要來教育，其實也可以結合教育來處理，對文化的形成會比較好。"],["許部長銘春：對，也是，對對對，是。"],["邱委員泰源：看下一張，最近我們也開始關心女性國人，很多人因為小孩子稍微大了，會想說不知道哪裡可以有所發揮，不曉得勞動部對這個部分、這個主題的看法怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：我們今年9月1號有一個婦女再就業計畫，為期3年的計畫，預計3年內希望增加14萬名的女性勞動力，這個計畫包括給女性，因為他可能離開職場一段時間了，他可以針對自己過去所具備的專業技能還需要再提升的，他可以提出自主訓練計畫，我們會給他獎勵；另外就是他如果重返職場穩定就業3個月，我們也會給他最高3萬元的獎勵，因為工時調整……"],["邱委員泰源：部長，有這個計畫嘛？"],["許部長銘春：有有有。"],["邱委員泰源：做的情況你再跟我講一下。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["邱委員泰源：我們可以後續再來追蹤好了，因為我後面還有主題……"],["許部長銘春：是是是。好。"],["邱委員泰源：接下來這也是醫療院所比較困擾的，醫療院所不一樣的是什麼呢？就是你來看病，我一定要先救你，把你收來住院，加護病房出來後還要住院，結果搞半天搞了一個月，把命救起來，哇，沒錢給付，這個部分勞動部有什麼看法？簡單講一下就好。"],["許部長銘春：這個部分我們未來會，這部分行政院跨部會已經有討論了，未來會有一些方向出來；另外，在勞動部這邊，我們未來就是會針對來源國的仲介，要求他要負連帶責任。"],["邱委員泰源：這個當然是一個方法，但是不一定是好方法，還是可以再討論，這個主題也請勞動部把後來的進展也給我們一下好了。"],["許部長銘春：好。OK。"],["邱委員泰源：針對這個問題大家共同再來思考，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。謝謝委員。"],["邱委員泰源：感謝大家。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝召委。下一位請洪申翰委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.57909375,"end":4.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.2497187499999995,"end":4.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.650343750000001,"end":6.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.902843750000002,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.14721875,"end":17.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.01971875,"end":18.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.62284375,"end":22.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.68971875,"end":26.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.929718750000003,"end":39.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.90221875,"end":43.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.99034375,"end":46.555343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.52159375,"end":47.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.314718750000004,"end":49.305968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.305968750000005,"end":49.609718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.250968750000006,"end":56.477843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.20784375,"end":56.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.237218750000004,"end":58.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.633468750000006,"end":61.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.10534375,"end":65.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.52284375,"end":68.00346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.00346875000001,"end":68.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.42534375000001,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.28159375,"end":71.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.63596875,"end":75.17534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.31034375,"end":75.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.74909375,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.41096875000001,"end":83.39346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.96721875,"end":99.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.55534375,"end":105.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.46159375,"end":107.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.90846875000001,"end":116.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.00846875,"end":117.78471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.05471875,"end":122.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.13409375,"end":127.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.68596875,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.49596875,"end":133.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.56284375,"end":137.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.10221875000002,"end":141.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.16909375,"end":142.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.57409375,"end":144.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.49346875,"end":151.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.80471875,"end":155.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.41159375,"end":173.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.26534375,"end":174.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.95721875,"end":177.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.51784375,"end":179.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.95221875000001,"end":180.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.57659375,"end":184.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.57596875000002,"end":187.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.54596875000001,"end":187.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.17034375,"end":190.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.85346875000002,"end":192.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.84471875,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.89034375,"end":199.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.65784375,"end":206.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.15471875,"end":210.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.95596875,"end":210.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.17534375000002,"end":219.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.34721875000002,"end":217.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.30034375000002,"end":226.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.47659375,"end":231.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.06659375,"end":231.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.10034375,"end":231.11721875},{"speaker":"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4,"end":313.841,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十"},{"start":322.303,"end":347.348,"text":"則是我們進場去幫那些中高齡或高齡者,讓他們在這個勞動力的來源上能夠更迅速的去獲得填補。我想我們有在做,那當然就一直檢討成果跟看怎麼樣有精進的策略。這可能要不斷的努力,才能改變文化。"},{"start":348.237,"end":350.959,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":373.453,"end":396.485,"text":"福具每年喔每個人每年齁你只要拼用這些壯士代勞工每人每年有十萬塊的福具的的費用齁可以來補助你那這個都可以減輕他們在工作上齁比如說要搬重啦齁或者各種不便的齁那這個部分我們也一直在做一些宣導讓戶主知道我們以前在推這個計畫的時候齁那個法案的時候當然"},{"start":398.732,"end":418.835,"text":"我們也擔心說會去搶年輕人的位子,可是畢竟還是有很多人不能說現在那種困境,像沒錢了怎麼辦?很多啊,像我們在弄健保也是很痛苦啊。我想國家政府還有醫界也都很頭痛啊。"},{"start":421.381,"end":446.938,"text":"總是要創造它的價值,不能就是卡死在那裡,當然來創造我們的智慧。我想這個部分,很多政策不是不能做,而是怎麼把它做得好。我們現在其實是整體的缺工,所以不會有說去搶青年人工作的問題。部長我請教你,你覺得我們現在有年輕人都跑去哪邊工作?"},{"start":448.387,"end":473.67,"text":"好像很多人都在缺人力,都在家裡,家裡有錢都不用出來工作,你們有沒有去統計一下?其實很多都到服務業批發零售那邊去啦,批發零售業。批發零售業,有需要那麼多人喔?原來了解年輕人都早就在做行為。"},{"start":476.317,"end":479.558,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":495.995,"end":505.45,"text":"現在的年輕人沒辦法結合我們大概七成的年輕人喜歡在服務業我們大概有七成的年輕人畢業以後的年輕人喜歡在服務業"},{"start":509.96,"end":510.28,"text":"二、委員李姓格倫"},{"start":535.014,"end":549.808,"text":"那個...很多人都...他小孩子也長...也稍微大了齁...想說不然退休可以發揮一下這樣齁...啊這個部分不曉得我們勞動部這個部分對這個主題的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":550.601,"end":569.017,"text":"對,我們現在有一個,我們今天9月1號就是有一個婦女再就業計劃,三年的計劃,預計是說大概三年內希望增加14萬名的女性勞動力,那這個計劃包括說給這個女性,因為她可能離開職場一段時間了,那她可以"},{"start":570.378,"end":586.753,"text":"對自己過去具備的專業技能還需要再提升的他可以提出自主訓練計畫我們會給他獎勵另外就是說他如果重返職場穩定就業三個月我們也會給他最高三萬元的獎勵"},{"start":587.634,"end":596.821,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文"},{"start":617.395,"end":620.596,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議"},{"start":640.362,"end":655.436,"text":"這個當然是一個方法,但是不一定是好方法,還是可以再討論。那這個主題也請勞動部把後來的進展也給我們一下好了。當然在針對這個問題大家共同再來思考。好不好?好,感謝大家。好,謝謝主席。"}]}},{"id":"149016","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149016","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d6c2fa5df3bc615cbdab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a03224763dcd5b5be02255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林為洲","委員發言時間":"10:50:21 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11:01:17","影片長度":"00:10:56","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":656,"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:01:17+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:50:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":604,"blocks":[["林委員為洲：（10時50分）謝謝召委，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：林委員好。"],["林委員為洲：今天我們要審查勞工退休金條例，其中有七個案子要推動新制勞工退休金自選投資。請問部長，你覺得勞工退休金投資最重要的目的是什麼？賺錢？還是獲利，好讓勞工退休金將來可以增加更多？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，投資的第一個一定要安全保本……"],["林委員為洲：安全更重要。"],["許部長銘春：然後穩健，當然想自選就是希望能夠多賺一點投資收益，這些都是自選所希望達到的。"],["林委員為洲：其他的退休金基金有沒有自選制度？比如說公教人員……"],["許部長銘春：私校退撫。"],["林委員為洲：私校退撫？"],["許部長銘春：私校退撫及公務員退撫新制……"],["林委員為洲：都有自選？"],["許部長銘春：但是規模很小。我記得私校退撫才700億左右而已，至於勞退現在應該有3兆……"],["林委員為洲：是……"],["許部長銘春：4.9兆。"],["林委員為洲：退休金最主要的目的，以我個人的理解，就是平常工作的時候有收入，等到退休之後沒有收入了，等於在平常儲備了一些將來……"],["許部長銘春：就是個儲蓄……"],["林委員為洲：養老本，養老的本。因為那時候你可能沒有辦法工作，沒有其他收入，所以才希望有這樣的制度可以養老，但如果捨本逐末，把它拿來預支當作投資工具，萬一輸掉的話，就連養老本都沒了，這樣就跟我們設定退休金的目的不太一樣。你可以拿現在多餘的收入、生活之外的錢去投資增加收入，這個OK，因為生活有多餘；但退休金是將來沒有辦法工作了，沒有其他收入了，要靠退休金養老，不造成其他家人的負擔、國家的負擔。一旦捨本逐末，我認為捨本逐末去預支將來的退休金，然後來操作以賺取更多的利潤，這有一點違背。以我的立場，我是這樣看待，就是你剛剛講的，它有風險，而不是完全沒風險，否則拿來增加收益的話當然好，對不對？但這是有風險的，可能會輸，所以針對這次要訂定自選條例的修法……"],["許部長銘春：這幾年有很多聲音希望能夠自提自選，也就是針對自提部分能夠自選，但我們認為勞退其實是屬於社會保險的角色……"],["林委員為洲：是啊，當然。"],["許部長銘春：就像剛剛委員講的，這是退休之後經濟生活安全的依靠……"],["林委員為洲：當然。"],["許部長銘春：自提自選就一定要自擔風險，畢竟是他自選，所以這一塊我們會很擔心。雖然勞工說願意自擔風險，但是當你面對像去年金融市場整個股債都下跌的情況下，勞工承受得了嗎？"],["林委員為洲：對，是啊！"],["許部長銘春：所以我們才說還是要多多考量，畢竟勞退還是社會保險的角色，它不是商業保險……"],["林委員為洲：當然。"],["許部長銘春：比較屬於純投資的事情。"],["林委員為洲：當然，它不是理財投資！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["林委員為洲：退休金不是撥了一筆錢讓你理財投資，當初訂定的目的不是這樣！"],["許部長銘春：至於政府的投資，不管怎麼樣，一定會保證收益……"],["林委員為洲：是。"],["許部長銘春：到最後再怎麼樣，一定是政府……"],["林委員為洲：會承擔。"],["許部長銘春：會承擔，而且不低於2年期銀行定存利率的獲利給你，事實上，這幾年的投資，我們平均獲益大概是4.6%左右啦，所以對勞工來講，其實是還不錯。但我是比較擔心，如果自選之後，雖然現在是說自擔風險，大家都會說「沒關係，我可以自擔風險」，但是當真的萬一發生這個……"],["林委員為洲：又怪你們了。"],["許部長銘春：對，他們會說「當初都是政府的草案，然後立法院立法委員通過的」……"],["林委員為洲：修法開放。"],["許部長銘春：或說「當初的制度是你們幫我決定的」，我是覺得勞工還是比較辛苦的一群，有時候這件事情我會覺得說，雖然我們抱持著開放的態度，但還是要多聽各界的聲音啦。"],["林委員為洲：所以針對這個修法，我覺得應該要慎重、慎重，然後要多聽一些意見，甚至召開公聽會等等，然後也要比較其他的退撫基金目前的投資狀況，把他們的制度拿來互相做比較，看看有沒有改善的辦法，就是說，無非是想要增加投資的效益，讓大家到最後的退休金可以多一點，對不對？不然去投資做什麼，就是希望有效益嘛，有額外的投資效益。如果不用這種方式，然後去改善原來的制度，讓它的投資效益更能夠顯現或提高，而且確保那個風險，因為剛剛部長也講了，如果照現在的制度，政府是會擔當一定的保證收益的角色，這個安全性已經保障了，但是如何讓它有更高的收益，恐怕是更好的、更穩健的辦法。"],["許部長銘春：對，我們會努力啦。"],["林委員為洲：好，這個問題我們之後還會繼續討論啦，我想今天可能也不會很快的就進入逐條啦。","再來，我再請教關於開放服務業外勞的狀況，目前開放服務業外勞有什麼進度嗎？服務業的部分。"],["許部長銘春：目前還沒有，報告委員，因為之前那個……"],["林委員為洲：政策研擬到什麼階段了？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，這個部分就是觀光署有送評估報告過來，但是我們針對各界所質疑的，第一個，這個薪資條件是不是合理，還有就是是不是有挑工的問題，以及會不會衝擊到中高齡婦女就業等等問題。他們認為它的評估報告還有不足，我們還在等它的補充。另外，就是委員會這邊有要求我們，洪申翰委員有要求我們，要在12月底之前，要就整個開放，如果要開放服務業移工，對我們的族群、對我們的性別就業的影響評估。這個部分我們大概是這樣，目前還沒有說什麼時候要來討論，但是我們會等觀光署把它的補充評估報告送來，併同我們勞動部所做的這些就業影響評估報告，我們再來請專家開會做檢視，檢視之後我們才會適時地去提到我們的政策小組來評估、來討論。"],["林委員為洲：今天早上我們看到那個新聞，就是說擁有241間房間的嘉義觀止飯店，業者徵工務人員，工務技工、修繕工程師，俗稱工務技工，要會修水電，而且最好具有消防執照，但是他給的薪水是多少呢？"],["許部長銘春：2萬6,000。"],["林委員為洲：2萬6,000。"],["許部長銘春：這個新聞我有看到，非常不合理啦，非常不合理！"],["林委員為洲：他有執照耶，這樣才2萬6,000而已。"],["許部長銘春：是啊。"],["林委員為洲：你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["許部長銘春：非常不合理。"],["林委員為洲：這樣請得到人嗎？所以他請不到人嘛！他們如果希望開放外勞進口，就是開放移工進來，當然移工願意接受這個薪資，但本勞大概很難接受這樣的薪資，所以這個將來都會有這樣的衝突。一旦開放之後，那個行業就會變成都是外籍移工，本勞就進不去了，大家要想像一下，因為2萬6就請得到了，2萬6,400啊，我請到技工耶，還會修水電耶，本勞沒有人會做啦，老實講，那個行業開放了，將來就統統是外勞了！我現在先假設說如果連計程車都開放，我看以後開計程車的統統都是外勞，還只要基本薪資；外送員如果開放了，我看以後外送也統統都是外勞在做，就是移工在做啦，本國勞工怎麼辦？所以這個都是要整體去考量啦。"],["許部長銘春：對，沒錯。"],["林委員為洲：我們看到很多行業都是開放了外勞之後，本勞就很難進入那個行業，這個會衍生其他問題啦。當然對雇主來講，他會有外勞的選擇、外籍移工的選擇，但是以勞工的角度來看的話，很多領域就變成本勞進不去了，所以這個都要整體考量啦！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["林委員為洲：包括你們現在在研擬的所謂引進印度移工，這個大家都要好好的來討論，它衍生的一些效應都要一併的考慮。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["林委員為洲：好，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。請邱泰源委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.915968750000001,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.94096875,"end":9.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.10471875,"end":16.011593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.24784375,"end":20.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.512843750000002,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.191593750000003,"end":34.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.06346875,"end":39.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.64471875,"end":42.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.21409375,"end":46.656593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.01096875,"end":52.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.517218750000005,"end":49.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.00596875,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.862218750000004,"end":59.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.24596875,"end":55.971593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.127218750000004,"end":59.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.36346875,"end":65.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.38346875,"end":69.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.53909375,"end":72.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.99846875,"end":73.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.85909375,"end":74.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.83784375,"end":75.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.85471875,"end":74.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.28909375,"end":77.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.28471875000001,"end":78.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.09471875,"end":80.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.92971875,"end":81.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.09846875000001,"end":81.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.17846875000001,"end":82.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.19534375,"end":82.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.43159375,"end":82.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.88721875,"end":85.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.12346875,"end":84.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.82784375,"end":85.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.00909375,"end":87.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.75971875,"end":91.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.95784375000001,"end":90.39659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.33721875,"end":94.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.73346875,"end":95.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.66159375000001,"end":97.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.23909375000001,"end":100.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.51284375,"end":106.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.23784375000001,"end":116.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.10971875000001,"end":118.57784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.08846875,"end":130.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.65596875,"end":132.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.66846875000002,"end":149.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.57721875000001,"end":167.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.97096875,"end":167.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.37596875,"end":173.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.01221875000002,"end":183.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.76159375,"end":199.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.70159375,"end":191.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.19096875000002,"end":191.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.29221875000002,"end":191.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.30346875,"end":206.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.84346875,"end":204.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.94409375,"end":206.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.64846875,"end":225.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.94596875000002,"end":220.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.85659375,"end":225.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.12221875,"end":238.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.54221875000002,"end":242.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.36034375000003,"end":241.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.9253437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上我們看到那個新聞就是說嘉義關子這個飯店業者兩百四十一間房間徵公務"},{"start":507.858,"end":515.504,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":524.757,"end":525.138,"text":"兩萬六兩萬六這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這"},{"start":545.42,"end":572.786,"text":"他們如果希望說開放外勞進口就移工讓他進來當然他們願意移工願意接受這個薪資本勞大概很難接受這樣的薪資所以這個將來都會有這樣的衝突一旦開放之後那個行業就會變成都是移工外籍移工本勞就進不去"},{"start":573.973,"end":601.835,"text":"大家想像一下,兩萬六我就請得到,兩萬六千四我請到技工,還有修水電,本來沒有人會做啦,老實講。那個行業開放了,那就將來通通是外勞了。假設,我現在先假設說,如果連計程車開放,我看以後通通計程車都是外勞,那只要基本薪資。外送員如果開放了,他外送我看以後通通是外勞在做。"},{"start":603.257,"end":616.95,"text":"就移工在座了本國勞工怎麼辦所以這個都是要整體去考量我們看到很多的行業都是開放了外勞之後"},{"start":617.642,"end":623.026,"text":"立法院第10會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":637.529,"end":650.838,"text":"所以這個都要整體考量包括你們現在在研擬的所謂引進印度移工這個都要好好的大家來討論他衍生的一些效應都要一併的考慮好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149015","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149015","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d690f85f163cb4c58bab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322b67a135d127549fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王婉諭","委員發言時間":"10:39:15 - 10:50:15","影片長度":"00:11:00","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":660,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:50:15+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:39:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":566,"blocks":[["王委員婉諭：（10時39分）主席有請勞動部許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：王委員好。"],["王委員婉諭：部長你好。我們知道過去勞退舊制的情況之下，勞工需要在同一個事業單位，累積一定的年資才符合請領退休金的條件。如果他工作被解僱或者是被迫離職就沒有辦法累積年資，又或者也曾經出現過許多的事業單位惡性倒閉等等，造成勞工無法請領退休金。我們看到勞退新制從2005年上路之後，的確解決了這個問題，我想不可諱言，這個部分也應該給予肯定。勞退新制是採用個人帳戶制之下，讓勞工不會因為轉換事業單位而中斷年資，可是我們也看到在勞退新制上路之後，大家一直在反映的是、我們勞工團體一直在訴求的是，政府只告訴勞工朋友們勞退新制可以讓他們更有機會領到退休金，可是沒有說的是，這樣子的退休金其實是大打折扣的。我們以2021年勞工薪資中位數大約51萬來計算他的年資以及退休金，如果是以勞退舊制來計算，加起來總共大概是191萬元的勞退退休金，但是以勞退新制雇主提撥6%的比率來說，就只有91萬，所以在這樣的情況之下，很明顯的是，如果我們希望能夠保障他們請領的退休金是一樣的情況之下，回推回去後，雇主的提撥比率應該要高達12.5%。","我想這個部長一定很清楚，勞工團體們一直在訴求的是，我們希望能夠提高雇主的提撥比率，當然我也知道，部長一直在講這個6%是最低的部分，其實是可以透過勞資協議來增加，但是我們也看到相較之下，在今（2023）年7月公務人員退撫新制上路之後，強制提撥15%，其中政府的負擔是65%，換算過來雇主的提撥率高達9.75%，我覺得這就是再次地打臉勞工朋友。","我們也看到的確這個6%是最低的部分，可以透過勞資協議來提升，不過，我們也要跟部長來做一個提醒和回憶，就是在今年7月的時候，中華電信工會也發起了調高勞退雇主提撥比率的遊行，中華電信工會那時候就有提到，其實他們已經很多次向公司反映應該要提升提撥率，以彌平新舊制制度上的落差，但是公司的回應是要回去再研究，而實際上研究之後，最終中華電信公司也跳票了，它表示說，提撥比率涉及了政府的修法，所以不願意調整。","我想跟部長報告的是，即便這6%是最低，但是包括中華電信工會，它相對來說是比較大的工會，它跟雇主做協商都是這樣的情況了，都是完全沒有辦法提升，而且公司仍然認為這個6%是政府明定的，要調升其實是需要政府來做修法，更遑論其他的雇主以及其他的勞工朋友們，根本很難達到這樣的比率，所以我想這個議題部長你一定很清楚，當時其實你也曾經承諾，而且當時6月蔡英文總統在參加全國工會會員代表大會的時候也提到，這部分會持續地來做溝通。","所以我們其實有二個問題想要請部長來做說明，第一個，這個6%的比率，到底實際上有多少的雇主願意提高超過6%？還有，在高於6%提撥率的情況之下，有多少是透過勞資協議來達成的？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，目前雇主提繳率超過6%的大概有3,532家的事業單位，占比大概0.61%。"],["王委員婉諭：是，所以非常少，連1%都不到，尤其是剛剛提的中華電信工會就已經是一個很明顯的例子，即便像他們是比較嚴謹、比較大的工會，即便是中華電信，都不認為這個6%以上是他們應該要來共同討論的。"],["許部長銘春：我們法規定最低、至少是6%，其實是可以再增加……"],["王委員婉諭：是啊！但是實際上再增加的比率非常低啊！"],["許部長銘春：當然有些時候事業單位、雇主他可能會考慮到他所增加的一些……"],["王委員婉諭：當然，這就是為什麼大家一直在訴求這個6%應該要往上提升。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為這個部分其實也變成一個比較困難的地方，如果以整體來講，如果我們提高1%，一年的整個法定成本，就是雇主的法定成本，大概就是增加將近390億，所以這件事情當然要去……"],["王委員婉諭：我想勞工朋友今天之所以覺得很不公平或是覺得很受到委屈的是，我們新舊制比起來真的是差非常的多；第二個部分，剛剛提到像公務人員退撫新制上路之後，其實算起來也是在9.75%，當然我們很希望臺灣能夠慢慢發展成勞資的權利、地位可以更加平等，透過勞資協商來推進，可是實務上，部長您剛剛提的數據其實就很明顯的呈現出來，不管勞工朋友喊得多大聲、多麼希望透過勞資協議來做處理，可是實際上的發生率不到1%，即便連剛才報告的中華電信這樣子的公司、這樣子的工會，都沒有辦法讓他們的雇主能夠願意承擔，甚至雇主還表示這必須要透過修法，難道我們的修法不應該更加保障勞工朋友的權益嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，的確，這個部分當然法律這樣的明定，要鼓勵他們自己願意提升，雇主……"],["王委員婉諭：難上加難啦，我想大家不用昧著良心說話啦，真的是難上加難啦，部長不會不知道。"],["許部長銘春：我瞭解，但就是我們現在要修法，當然這就是一個制度的變革，我是覺得這牽涉到雙方的權益，當然，我們會願意再跟大家來開會、溝通……"],["王委員婉諭：好，接下來請教，其實當時也說實際上對於這個6%要提升，蔡英文總統也曾經承諾過勞動部會來繼續努力和溝通。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["王委員婉諭：我們也想請教一下，從6月蔡英文總統承諾要來做溝通到現在，我們做了哪些部分？又研議的方向如何？以及什麼時候會有一個比較具體的目標？"],["許部長銘春：這個部分喔，其實我們……"],["王委員婉諭：這個溝通，我說的是要真正溝通，不是說嘴巴上溝通而已。"],["許部長銘春：是，但說實在這件事情當然不是那麼容易啦，因為這是要說服……"],["王委員婉諭：是啊！所以我們一定要看到實際上做了哪些事情，從6月到現在進行了哪些溝通？又跟哪些單位做了溝通？"],["許部長銘春：我們其實透過這個團體協約的部分，就是鼓勵大家能夠明文約定提高，這部分也有一些效果，然後讓那些……"],["王委員婉諭：部長，我覺得我們就先不講這個勞資協議或團體協議，你知道這有多困難，我相信部長不會不知道，所以我想請教的是要朝著我們法定做提高的部分，當時6月就承諾過會來善盡溝通，以及評估這樣的可能性，我們想問這部分有沒有具體溝通了哪些事情？還是就是沒有回答，意思就是沒有溝通？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們的溝通方式是多元的，或許不是一個正式召開的會議叫勞資雙方都來，而是在各種場合去跟他們做說明，希望雇主……"],["王委員婉諭：其實就是跟沒有講一樣嘛！就是一直在宣示，希望大家可以來努力，但就是沒有努力。","好，沒關係，那我們下一個題目。我們看到最近3名總統候選人，包括我們的賴清德，還有侯友宜以及柯文哲等3位候選人都有提到應該要來調整法律的命令，包括說如果雇主願意來提高提撥的部分，或許我們可以透過獎勵免稅的機制，或是減稅的機制來提高他們提高撥補的可能性，所以我們想請教對於這個方向，部長有沒有一個想法？或者是如何能夠來支持？又或者是不支持這樣的方向？因為剛才提到，如果法定要提高6%一直說要溝通，但是卻完全提不出具體溝通了什麼，那在我們希望雇主主動提高提撥率，我們又如何來鼓勵雇主來提高？不要再說要透過勞資協議了，因為部長你的數據已經打臉你們自己說的，透過勞資協議可以來提高的，實際上不到1%，上路了18年，卻不到1%，我相信這個勞資協議真的非常困難。"],["許部長銘春：當然希望這些雇主他們能夠接受提高強制提撥率，而這個部分當然也要有一些誘因，那這些誘因可能就必須大家跨部會來做討論，因為這個有時候會牽涉到稅負的問題，這個部分我們後續願意跟相關的部會大家一起來……"],["王委員婉諭：什麼時候我們可以看得到方向？我想當然第一個是透過法規修訂來提高它的強制力，第二個是用鼓勵的方式提高誘因，讓他們願意來進行，這兩個部分我覺得都必須要處理。那第一個部分，從蔡總統6月承諾到現在並沒有進行什麼具體的溝通，第二部分是，如果朝著鼓勵的方式，我們什麼時候會有一個比較明確溝通的結果，或是溝通的方向？我想大家都希望朝這個目標，不是說就把目標放在那邊就會達到，而是真的要有進程，做了些什麼，至少可以告訴大家，我覺得大家之所以現在會很生氣的，就是在於我們完全看不到路徑，不能相信我們的目標有可能會達到，更不相信政府的誠意在哪裡。我想部長你一定很知道勞工朋友的辛苦，剛才的數據也很明顯的呈現出要靠勞資協議，其實是非常、非常、非常、非常的困難，即便我們推動倡議了十幾年到現在仍然不到1%是超過6%的。部長，所以這就是為什麼我們希望能夠看得到，因為不論是強制又或者是鼓勵，我們都要有清楚的路徑，又或者是至少讓我們看到政府願意努力了吧！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我會責由業務單位來做一個規劃，就是說我們就這個議題的部分，我們有個具體的規劃，就是在……"],["王委員婉諭：兩個部分都做具體的規劃，1個月內給我們方便嗎？一個是能不能朝這6%的部分在法規面上來提升？第二個是如果我們透過獎勵的部分，該如何來做處理？我還是要再次強調，勞工朋友都在講「6%不夠花，老後被打趴！」我想6%這個部分是大家長期以來的訴求，希望能夠提升，不論是用修法又或者是退而求其次，政府用鼓勵的措施來做努力，我覺得這些都應該要具體來面對，不要講了10幾年說要透過勞資協議、透過團體協約可以做，從實際上的數據就可以知道，這就是完全非常困難的一件事情，不應該把這樣的責任放任說讓勞工朋友自己去爭取，我覺得勞動部絕對有責任，也必須要承擔起勞工朋友的權益，希望部長能夠在一個月內，把這兩項未來會規劃和討論的方式告訴我們，並向大家做一個報告和說明。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["王委員婉諭：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。有請林為洲林委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.6172187500000001,"end":3.1697187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.08096875,"end":4.755968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.62034375,"end":138.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.47346875,"end":213.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.34346875,"end":214.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.76534375,"end":217.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.85346875000002,"end":224.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.80596875,"end":228.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.09659375,"end":242.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.91846875000002,"end":234.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.90034375000002,"end":243.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.94221875000002,"end":247.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.68846875000003,"end":254.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.46846875000003,"end":253.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.43846875000003,"end":259.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.02846875,"end":259.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.04534375000003,"end":259.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.18034375,"end":259.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.33221875000004,"end":259.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.43346875000003,"end":259.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.78784375000004,"end":259.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.80471875,"end":259.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.85534375000003,"end":259.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.93971875,"end":259.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.97346875,"end":260.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.02409375,"end":260.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.59784375000004,"end":261.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.23909375,"end":268.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.94784375,"end":262.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.54596875000004,"end":269.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.44034375,"end":277.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.89471875000004,"end":280.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.64534375,"end":280.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.20221875000004,"end":281.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.21909375,"end":281.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.97846875,"end":331.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.01284375,"end":333.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.76784375,"end":336.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.97409375,"end":339.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.45471875000004,"end":341.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.12096875000003,"end":353.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.26409375000003,"end":345.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.63096875,"end":345.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.78284375000004,"end":345.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.05284375,"end":347.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.52846875,"end":366.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.42096875000004,"end":385.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.46284375000005,"end":369.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.51909375,"end":389.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.97846875000005,"end":392.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.69534375,"end":393.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.43784375,"end":399.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.24721875,"end":403.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.84971875,"end":407.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.86596875000004,"end":410.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.26221875000005,"end":412.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.19846875,"end":415.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.83096875,"end":421.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.97346875000005,"end":439.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.89471875000004,"end":440.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.46846875000006,"end":446.94846875},{"speaker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«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":74.088,"end":98.403,"text":"僱主提撥6%的比例來說是只有91萬所以比如說在這樣的情況之下就可以很明顯的是如果我們希望能夠讓他們保障到請你的退休金是一樣的情況之下回推回去僱主的提撥比例應該要是高達12.5%我想這個部長您一定很清楚勞工團體們一直在訴求的是我們希望能夠提高僱主的提撥比例當然我也知道部長一直在講"},{"start":99.523,"end":122.017,"text":"這個6%是最低的部分其實可以透過勞資協議來做增加但是呢我們也看到相較之下在今年的2023在今年的7月公務人員的退府薪資上路之後強制提撥15%其中政府的負擔是65%意思就換算過來是貴族的提撥率高達9.75%我覺得就是再次的打臉勞工朋友所以我們也看到說"},{"start":122.677,"end":137.755,"text":"的確啊這個6%是最低的部分可以透過勞資協議來做提升不過我們也要跟部長這邊來做一個提醒和回憶齁就今年七月的時候下一頁今年七月的時候中華電信工會也有發起了要來調高勞退雇主的提撥比例的的遊行"},{"start":138.456,"end":141.238,"text":"而實際上研究之後最終中華電信公司也跳票了他表示說提撥比率涉及了政府的修法所以不願意調整"},{"start":161.331,"end":184.814,"text":"所以我想跟部長報告的是即便是這6%是最低但是包括連中華電信和中華電信工會是相對來說比較大的工會了來跟僱主做協商都是這樣的情況是完全沒有辦法提升而且公司仍然認為這個6%是政府明定的所以要調升其實是需要政府來做修法更是還問其他的僱主以及其他的勞工朋友們根本很難達到這樣的比例啦"},{"start":186.235,"end":211.466,"text":"所以我想這個議題部長你一定很清楚當時其實你也曾經有承諾當時在因為總統在參加在六月參加全國工會的會員代表大會的時候也提到這部分會持續的來做溝通所以我們其實有兩個問題想要請部長來做說明第一個是這個6%的比例到底實際上有多少的雇主願意提高超過6%還有這個在高於6%的提撥率的情況之下有多少是透過勞資協議來達成的"},{"start":214.806,"end":240.315,"text":"報告委員目前那個顧主提繳率超過6%的大概有3,532家的事業單位了。占比?占比大概0.61%啦。是,所以非常少,連1%都不到。尤其是剛剛其實中華電信的工會就已經是一個很明顯的例子。即便像他們是工會比較嚴謹、比較大一些些,即便是中華電信都不認為這個6%以上是他們應該要來共同討論的。因為他當然他"},{"start":244.016,"end":267.413,"text":"其實我們法規定是說最低至少6%嘛那其實是可以再增加但是有些時候當然以事業單位顧主委他可能會考慮到他的所增加的一些當然這就是為什麼大家一直在訴求的是這個6%應該要往上提升報告委也因為這個部分其實也變成是比較困難的地方就是說如果以整體來講一年"},{"start":269.494,"end":270.877,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":278.164,"end":302.972,"text":"所以這件事情當然要去...我想老公朋友今天之所以覺得很不公平的或是覺得很受到委屈的是在於我們新救治比起來真的是差非常的多這個部分是剛剛才提到說將這個公務員員退服薪資上路之後其實算起來也是在9.75%那當然我們很希望能夠台灣慢慢發展成勞資的權利是更加平等、地位是更加平等透過勞資協商來做推進可是實務上部長您剛剛的數據其實就很明顯的呈現出來"},{"start":307.773,"end":330.993,"text":"不管勞工朋友喊得多大聲,多麼希望透過勞資協定來做處理,可是實際上的發生率不到1%。即便連剛才報告的中華電信這樣子的公司、這樣子的工會都沒有辦法讓他們的僱主能夠願意來承擔,甚至是僱主表示這必須要透過修法,難道我們修法不應該來更加來保障勞工朋友的權益嗎?"},{"start":332.102,"end":338.851,"text":"是,報告委因為的確啦齁這個部分當然法律家的民定要鼓勵他們"},{"start":339.788,"end":345.273,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條"},{"start":365.532,"end":369.675,"text":"參議院總統曾承諾過說勞動部會來繼續做努力和溝通我們也想請教一下從六月參議院總統承諾要來做溝通到現在我們做了哪些部分和研議的方向如何以及什麼時候會有一個比較具體的目標"},{"start":386.57,"end":387.55,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具"},{"start":407.918,"end":410.92,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":430.549,"end":455.434,"text":"當時六月承諾會來善盡溝通以及來評估這樣的可能性。我們想問這部分有沒有具體溝通的哪些事情還是就是沒有回答的意思就是沒有溝通?報委我們的溝通方式是多元的啦或許不是正式的一個召開的會議說叫勞資雙方都來就是說在各種場合去跟他們做說明其實就是跟沒有講一樣嗎就是一直在宣示使用"},{"start":455.734,"end":460.958,"text":"三、委員賴清德、侯友宜及柯文哲等三位候選人提到,我應該要來調整法律的命令,包括說,如果僱主願意來提高撥補,或許我們可以透過獎勵免稅的機制或是減稅的機制來提高他們撥補的可能性。所以我們想請教,對於這個方向,部長有沒有一個想法,或者是如何能夠來支持又或者是不支持?"},{"start":485.674,"end":486.194,"text":"當然對這些僱主希望他們能夠來接受說"},{"start":515.627,"end":526.594,"text":"提高這個提撥率強制的提撥率那這個部分當然也要有一些誘因那這些誘因就是說可能就是必須大家跨部會來做討論因為這個有時候會牽涉到稅賦的問題這個部分我們"},{"start":530.976,"end":533.458,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":557.065,"end":581.392,"text":"我想大家希望朝這個目標不是說就把目標放在那邊就會達到而是真的要有進程做了些什麼至少可以告訴大家我覺得大家之所以現在會很生氣的就是在於我們完全看不到路徑更不能相信我們的目標有可能會達到更不相信政府的誠意在哪裡我想部長你一定很知道勞工朋友的辛苦你剛剛數據也很明顯的呈現出來要靠勞資協議其實是非常非常的困難"},{"start":583.132,"end":597.438,"text":"即便我們推動倡議了十幾年到現在仍然不到1%是超過6%的部長所以這就是為什麼我們希望能夠看得到如果不論是強制又或者是鼓勵我們都要有清楚的路徑又或者是至少讓我們看到政府願意努力的吧"},{"start":599.504,"end":622.501,"text":"我會擇由業務單位來做一個規劃就是說我們就這個議題的部分我們一個具體的規劃兩個部分都有具體的規劃一個月內給我們方便嗎?就是一個是能不能朝著6%的部分用法規面上來提升第二個是如果我們透過獎勵的部分我們能如何來做處理因為我還是要再次強調勞工朋友們都在講的是6%不夠花老後被打趴"},{"start":622.901,"end":645.232,"text":"我想這個部分略怕是大家長期以來的訴求希望能夠提升不論是用修法又或者是退而求其是政府用鼓勵的措施來做努力我覺得這應該要具體來做面對不要再講了十幾年說透過勞資協議透過團體協約我們可以做事實上數據就知道這就是完全非常困難的一件事情了不應該把這樣的責任放到勞工朋友自己要去爭取我覺得勞動部"},{"start":647.194,"end":658.929,"text":"絕對有責任也必須要承擔起勞工朋友的權益。」希望部長能夠在一個月內把這兩項具體未來會規劃的方式和討論的方式告訴我們,跟大家做一個報告和說明。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。"}]}},{"id":"149014","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149014","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d69c8bf67ea789b2fbab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322e845366a77bfd4645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:29:37 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10:39:08","影片長度":"00:09:31","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":571,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:39:08+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:29:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":540,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時29分）謝謝，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。今天討論有關勞動退休金的問題，其實我們看到一份報告，就是在人力資源顧問的評比當中，臺灣排名第39，可能我們從上面看到確實臺灣的退休金制度是不是存在一些問題？剛剛也有很多委員特別提到有關退休金提撥的問題，我想請教因為我們最低薪資在這幾年當中一直往上調，到明年開始已經到二萬七千多，像這樣子的話，我們勞保投保薪資的上限在105年也調到4萬5,800，有沒有可能勞保投保薪資的上限會再往上調？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我先講剛剛你講的CFA的報告，其實這個報告的評比面向很廣，因為每個國家的養老金制度不同，所以很難直接比較啦！但是因為這個不是單純評估像我們職業勞工他退休以後的退休金狀況，它評比的面向我看很廣，包括基礎年金、公共年金、私人退休金計算，還有持有房產、債務，全部都在裡面，所以我認為這個很難去做比較。但是我是認為我們國家當然一定要確保我們自己勞工退休經濟生活的安全，我們現在其實就是兩個，勞保加勞退，以目前我們工作30年，現在平均投保薪資大概在3萬7,000左右，其實退休以後所領的所得替代率大概在68%，並不會低於OECD啦！不過我覺得當然世界各國有好的制度我們都願意來參考，這是第一個。","第二個就是那個4萬5,800的天花板是不是要打開？這件事情因為會牽涉到我們現在整個勞保的財務問題，報告委員，你也知道我們勞保106年就已經開始發生逆差、缺口，所以我覺得不排除在未來整個年金改革裡面可以來討論這一題，但是沒有辦法單純現在就只針對這個問題去打開，因為這樣會牽涉到我們整個勞保財務，會更加雪上加霜。"],["黃委員秀芳：我一直想要講的就是我們勞保的投保薪資在105年提高到4萬5,800，我們的基本薪資其實一直都在往上調，那相對地投保薪資是不是也要再往上？我認為應該是這樣子才合理啦！"],["許部長銘春：對，我也認為應該是這樣，你看我們的職災保險就提高到7萬2,800了，這個已經cover到大概有九成勞工都可以適用得到，我是覺得這一題未來可能跟年改這件事情要一起討論，不然我現在只要單提高一級，就是1,500億的負擔，所以我才說這件事情要檢討，但是不是現在，就是要整體……"],["黃委員秀芳：好，所以就是要去討論啦！"],["許部長銘春：對，未來要討論啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：我覺得未來應該要去討論才合理，就是最低薪資我們都已經這樣子往上調了，所以投保薪資上限應該也要再往上。"],["許部長銘春：對，一定要的，這是未來一定要調，但是我們現在有一些考量，勞保的財務要先解決。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，剛剛也有很多委員提到我們自提6%的這個部分，是不是可以自己選擇投資的標的？我也希望是不是有這樣的一個方式，有的人他也想要透過這樣去選擇，我不知道你們有沒有去考慮？"],["許部長銘春：這個部分我們會尊重大家的意見，但是現在的狀況就是還是有些勞團比較擔心，這畢竟是退休老本，你要自擔風險這件事情，萬一有譬如像去年整個金融市場跌了兩、三成，這個對勞工都是很大的衝擊啦！當然我們再多多聽各界的意見，勞工也有專業的理財觀念之後，大家能夠更理性的來看這個問題、來討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，接下來我想請教有關中高齡的就業，有很多高齡或者是中高齡的民眾，其實他們也很想二度就業，找的工作可能就是一些比較簡單的工作，他們有的確實是因為經濟的壓力急需一份工作，可是他們去應徵的時候會碰到也許是年齡的關係，或者是時間有時候沒辦法配合，也許他還有長輩需要照顧，所以那個時間可能沒辦法配合。我也看到你們有提出一個針對補助地方政府成立銀髮人才服務據點的措施，我看到這個執行率好像也不是那麼好，執行率不是那麼理想，但確實地方有這樣的一個需求，我不知道未來你們執行率不是那麼好要怎麼去改進？"],["許部長銘春：對，報告委員，因為我們這些中高齡去找工作，常常會遇到一個問題，就是雇主的刻板印象啦！還有會覺得好像他年紀比較大一點，是不是體力沒辦法負擔，再來他有時候要兼顧家庭，所以現在我們這些計畫其實就是希望鼓勵雇主要進用，然後我們用怎麼樣的獎勵給他。另外我們也鼓勵雇主，其實針對這些中高齡，你可以用一些彈性工時，讓他職場工作跟家庭能夠兼顧，畢竟在缺工的年代，他還是我們的勞動力。其實中高齡、高齡者是一個很重要勞動力來源，所以我一直是希望我們的雇主可以善用我們的中高齡，其實我都說要講「壯世代」啦！以年齡來講，像我也是中高齡，45歲到64歲都中高齡啦，但是我覺得我們的體力、能力都還可以負擔，所以我覺得不要排斥這些壯世代，但是可能要給他一些工作的彈性，讓他能夠兼顧，這個我們都有一些相關的措施。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以這個據點你們未來還要補助、還要持續嗎？"],["許部長銘春：會，會繼續，我們會弄到50處。"],["黃委員秀芳：對啊！問題是執行率不是那麼好，你們怎麼去改善？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這是剛開始啦，我們會陸續執行，因為這些事情會需要一些時間，我覺得依目前我們的推動還有努力應該會漸入佳境啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：這樣好像已經執行2年了，是不是？這個據點開始推動是去年？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，我們不是一次，我們是陸陸續續成立，因為縣市政府它願意要規劃，我們才能夠成立，所以我們是陸續成立啦！有的成立比較早，有的剛成立啊！現在一共是14處啦，我們2年內成立14處，陸陸續續還會增加，其實就會讓績效慢慢地能夠提升上來。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，有這樣的一個據點，我希望你們也要多宣傳，因為很多他們不知道，第一個，他可能直接到就業服務站嘛，當然就業服務站服務也都很好，但如果說你既然有這個據點的話，專門服務這些中高齡的……"],["許部長銘春：會，我們未來會有單一窗口，另外有一些長青中心之類的，很多壯世代去那邊活動，我們就把他連結起來，讓他們有這樣的資訊，瞭解自己其實可以再來奉獻給社會，是可以工作，又能解決我們勞動力的缺口這樣子。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，有請王婉諭王委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.072218750000001,"end":8.552843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.704093750000002,"end":13.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.075343750000002,"end":13.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.09221875,"end":25.242218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.00159375,"end":27.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.300968750000003,"end":28.735343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.887218750000002,"end":31.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.90784375,"end":32.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.228468750000005,"end":36.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.126593750000005,"end":40.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.81784375,"end":54.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.06034375,"end":76.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.87534375,"end":83.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.33471875000001,"end":81.72284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.54534375,"end":84.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.16534375,"end":89.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.18159375,"end":89.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.45159375,"end":90.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.81409375000001,"end":108.09846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.57096875,"end":109.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.71846875000001,"end":114.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.88221875,"end":122.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.05034375000001,"end":119.42159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.06284375000001,"end":120.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.44221875000001,"end":128.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.43284375000002,"end":133.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.83284375,"end":134.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.11971875,"end":138.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.77721875,"end":138.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.79409375,"end":138.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.81096875,"end":138.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.92909375000002,"end":138.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.96284375000002,"end":138.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.97971875000002,"end":142.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.21971875,"end":149.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.18096875,"end":147.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.56034375000002,"end":155.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.22659375,"end":152.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.44534375,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.67721875,"end":158.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.55034375,"end":185.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.58409375000002,"end":160.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.39034375,"end":184.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.55471875,"end":186.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.53346875000003,"end":187.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.96784375000001,"end":188.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.54159375,"end":188.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.57534375,"end":205.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.08346875,"end":205.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.97346875000002,"end":210.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.09159375000002,"end":207.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.34409375,"end":226.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.22346875000002,"end":226.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.61159375000003,"end":231.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.91034375,"end":232.48409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.90159375000002,"end":238.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.37409375000001,"end":234.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.88034375,"end":234.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.96471875,"end":235.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.09971875000002,"end":236.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.47909375,"end":250.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.70659375000002,"end":241.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEA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部長好 今天討論這個有關這個勞動退休金的問題那我想請教就是說其實我們看到一份報告就是說我們這個人力資源顧問有關在那個評比台灣的這個評比當中排名第39那這個排名第39可能我們從上面看到就是說確實台灣的這個退休金制度是不是存在一些問題"},{"start":45.47,"end":64.963,"text":"議員提到有關退休金提撥的問題我想請教因為我們最低薪資在這幾年當中已經一直往上跳到明年開始已經到兩萬七千多像這樣子的話我們勞保的投保薪資的上限在105年"},{"start":66.184,"end":70.508,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":91.877,"end":120.205,"text":"你很難直接比較啦很難直接比較但是因為這個不是單純評估說像我們這種我們的職業勞工他退休以後的那個退休金的狀況他評比的面向我看很廣包括基礎年金公共年金私人兌現金計算還有持有房產債務全部都在裡面所以我認為說這個很難去做比較但是呢我是認為說我們國家當然一定要確保我們自己勞工的退休經濟生活的安全那我們現在其實就是兩個嘛"},{"start":120.945,"end":136.885,"text":"老保加勞退。老保加勞退,我們工作三十年,現在平均投保薪資大概在三萬七左右。退休以後所領的所得替代率"},{"start":137.385,"end":155.136,"text":"大概在百分之六十八並不會低於OECD不過我覺得當然世界各國有好的制度我們都願意來參考第二個就是說那個四萬五千八天花板是不是要打開那這件事情因為會牽涉到我們現在整個"},{"start":156.496,"end":160.017,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":187.143,"end":204.401,"text":"其實我一直想要講的就是說其實我們的這個勞保的這個投保薪資在105年提高到這個四萬五千八嘛那其實我們的基本薪資其實一直都在往上調那是不是也要相對的這個投保薪資是不是也要再往上"},{"start":205.501,"end":230.916,"text":"這是我認為應該是這樣子才合理啊我也認為應該是這樣你看我們的紙災保險災保我就提到七萬兩千八了這個已經cover到大概有八成的勞工九成勞工都可以適用得到但未來我是覺得這一題可能未來就是可能跟年改這件事情要一起討論啊不然我現在我只要單提高一級我就是一千五百億的負擔啊"},{"start":234.216,"end":237.218,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員"},{"start":257.247,"end":259.608,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":284.683,"end":303.162,"text":"對這個部分我們會尊重大家的意見但是就是說現在的狀況就是說還是有些老團比較擔心的就是說這畢竟是退休老本那你要自擔風險這件事情萬一有譬如說像去年金融"},{"start":304.125,"end":308.888,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":327.259,"end":353.056,"text":"其中有很多高齡或中高齡的民眾,其實他們也很想在二度就業。早的工作可能就是一些比較簡單的工作,有的他們也急需一份工作,有的確實是因為經濟的壓力,急需一份工作。可是他們去應徵的時候可能都會碰到年齡的關係,或者是時間有時候沒辦法配合。"},{"start":357.339,"end":373.541,"text":"其他還有長輩需要照顧所以那個時間可能沒辦法配合那我也看到就是說你們有提出一個就是針對這個補助地方政府成立銀髮人才服務據點的這個措施那我看到這個執行率好像也不是那麼好"},{"start":374.582,"end":376.803,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":392.159,"end":393.701,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":405.472,"end":406.934,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":424.172,"end":426.714,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":443.946,"end":445.927,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":465.235,"end":490.442,"text":"還要繼續持續嗎?會繼續,我們會弄到50處。對啊,問題是執行率不是那麼好,你們怎麼去改善?因為報告委也是剛開始啦,就是我們會陸續的去,因為有些這件事情就是會要需要一些時間,我覺得依目前我們的推動還有我們的努力應該會進入加進啦,進入加進。這樣好像已經執行兩年了欸,是不是?"},{"start":490.742,"end":494.484,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":514.132,"end":531.578,"text":"兩年內目前是14處了,那陸陸續續還會增加,那我們其實就會讓績效慢慢的把它能夠提升上來。好,那有這樣的一個據點我希望你們也要多宣傳,因為很多他們不知道可能也是"},{"start":532.538,"end":546.383,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16"},{"start":559.868,"end":562.314,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"}]}},{"id":"149013","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149013","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d66f0c63c8fd12bc9fab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322b36baeae8c032c655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳椒華","委員發言時間":"10:22:42 - 10:29:26","影片長度":"00:06:44","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":404,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:29:26+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:22:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":498,"blocks":[["陳委員椒華：（10時22分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：陳委員好。"],["陳委員椒華：部長好。部長，目前我們看到3位總統候選人在談論到勞退新制的問題，都僅說會鼓勵雇主和勞工提撥，卻迴避強制提高雇主提撥勞退的修法，這樣看起來，他們應該是沒有想要去解決我們勞工的生活，而且是退休的生活，尤其我們現在看到整個物價上漲這麼多。請問勞動部，我們從舊制到新制，18年過去了，時空背景也不同了，所以針對提高雇主提撥勞退的比例是否應儘速研議提高？我們要問，目前全國勞工可期待預計提高多少百分比？預計什麼時候可以推行修法？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們知道勞工非常關心這個議題，但是因為強制提撥的部分就會牽涉到雇主的負擔，所以這個部分我們會參考大家的意見，然後……"],["陳委員椒華：所以勞動部的態度就是還在研議嗎？在參考意見嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我們就是來傾聽，然後參考大家意見。委員，就是因為我們也統計……"],["陳委員椒華：勞工就是希望提高啊！"],["許部長銘春：你問我多少百分比，問題是每提高1%的話，雇主每一年的負擔大概就是390億，所以這個部分因為會增加雇主的負擔，我們是認為可能要再經過討論啦！"],["陳委員椒華：可是這個就是一直存在的問題嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["陳委員椒華：也一直是困難的問題，但是18年過去了，本席是認為我們勞動部有責任要來檢討，然後提出照顧勞工的作法，尤其物價上漲這麼多，是嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為這個牽涉到退休的生活，當然我們願意傾聽勞工的意見，也願意針對大家的期待來跟雇主還有資方……"],["陳委員椒華：好，那要積極去研議嘛，你認為什麼時候要修法呢？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我是認為這個部分還要經過討論之後、傾聽各界的聲音，然後跟勞雇雙方共同討論之後……"],["陳委員椒華：我們的總統候選人都沒有具體地提出他們要做的方法，那勞動部是不是樂的輕鬆呢？"],["許部長銘春：也不是這樣，報告委員，因為這個……"],["陳委員椒華：不是這樣，那是怎樣呢？"],["許部長銘春：因為整個政策有時候……因為這個也牽涉到……這個也算是一個大議題，我覺得大家還是必須去面對，但是要審慎地研議，這個議題其實我們一直都瞭解，勞工的期待也很高，我們知道。"],["陳委員椒華：好，瞭解了，還會繼續再瞭解。部長，現在我們勞工退休金的個人帳戶是政府代為操作，請問目前的績效怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：我們的績效大概平均有4.5%到4.6%。"],["陳委員椒華：那是不是可以開放由勞工選擇，像私校退撫基金可以自主投資或是一定比例……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實我們的投資收益沒有比退撫基金差，我們是比它……"],["陳委員椒華：所以目前沒有考慮要修改？"],["許部長銘春：目前其實這個議題各界有不同的聲音，尤其也有勞團是持反對的意見，所以這個議題我們是持開放的態度，但是會傾聽各界的聲音，目前……"],["陳委員椒華：或是可以一定比例，譬如60%由政府操作，其餘可以開放讓勞工自主投資。"],["許部長銘春：我想各種意見我們都會參考。"],["陳委員椒華：好，再請教部長，在臺灣的年金制度中，有6萬多名的私校教職員處境是最為特殊的，在私校的退撫新制實施後，目前也沒有發揮預期的效益。部長，你認為現在的私校職災等保險可不可以跟勞保整併呢？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個議題我請主管來回復，好不好？"],["陳委員椒華：本席是希望能夠關心私校這些退撫的教職員工，這個部分勞動部有沒有去瞭解他們的困境，然後考慮跟勞保來做整併？"],["許部長銘春：我瞭解了，報告委員，因為這個目前還是屬於公保體系，所以我想委員關心的是這個議題。"],["陳委員椒華：是，沒錯。"],["許部長銘春：我們再跟銓敘部這邊來做一些瞭解。"],["陳委員椒華：好，目前也是因為物價上漲得這麼嚴重，以後這些私校退撫，以一個教授退休來說，他的月退可能才1萬6,000元，這是非常非常地低，所以這個問題我也是希望政府能夠重視。再來，中捷到北捷的工安事故頻傳，我要請問勞動部怎麼來監督？昨天北捷的工程又發生工安事故，這個監督方面你們現在要怎麼做？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個部分臺北市政府勞檢處目前正在做一些職災的調查，之後瞭解了也會做相關的處分。"],["陳委員椒華：再給本席書面，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好，再提供給委員。"],["陳委員椒華：兩個禮拜，可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：可以，沒問題。"],["陳委員椒華：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：有請黃秀芳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.29221875,"end":4.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.570343750000001,"end":5.414093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.98721875,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.927843750000001,"end":26.727218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.60471875,"end":28.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.988468750000003,"end":40.362218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.64909375,"end":41.509718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.729093750000004,"end":48.799718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.204718750000005,"end":59.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.56596875,"end":66.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.56909375000001,"end":69.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.52221875000001,"end":69.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.45034375,"end":77.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.11159375000001,"end":84.65909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.74346875,"end":108.92534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.47284375000001,"end":88.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.10971875,"end":93.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.91471875,"end":98.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.97596875,"end":111.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.70971875000001,"end":115.89471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.67971875,"end":118.40909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.16034375000001,"end":117.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.59471875000001,"end":134.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.60909375,"end":134.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.31784375,"end":142.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.23221875000002,"end":152.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.19346875000002,"end":152.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.49221875,"end":162.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.61034375,"end":154.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.13221875000002,"end":171.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.78471875000002,"end":173.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.18096875,"end":180.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.19784375,"end":176.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.79596875000001,"end":183.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.98534375,"end":185.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.26346875000002,"end":194.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.13159375,"end":196.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.96221875,"end":196.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.26596875,"end":206.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.23471875,"end":211.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.40721875000003,"end":213.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.14534375000002,"end":222.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.28346875000003,"end":229.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.88971875000001,"end":229.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.31159375000001,"end":230.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.03721875000002,"end":234.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.32409375,"end":232.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.04909375000003,"end":236.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.05721875,"end":241.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.79909375000003,"end":247.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.22034375,"end":254.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.94034375,"end":260.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.55971875,"end":262.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.97721875,"end":263.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.24284375,"end":269.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.59221875000003,"end":286.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.20971875000004,"end":290.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.54659375,"end":294.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.14534375,"end":294.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.07346875,"end":295.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.22096875,"end":296.490968750000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案。"},{"start":111.91,"end":134.161,"text":"會增加雇主負擔﹖我們是認為說可能要再經過討論﹖可是這個就是一直存在的問題嘛對不對也是一直困難的問題但是18年過去了本席是認為我們勞動部有責任要來做檢討然後提出來照顧勞工的做法尤其物價上漲這麼的多是嗎"},{"start":135.817,"end":140.146,"text":"報告委員,因為這個是牽涉到退休的生活,當然我們"},{"start":143.271,"end":152.053,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第"},{"start":171.806,"end":173.33,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":181.752,"end":206.073,"text":"這是一個大議題我覺得大家還是必須去面對但是要去審慎的研議我們沒有說這個議題其實我們一直也了解勞工的期待也很高了解了還會繼續再了解那請問部長我們現在勞工退休金個人帳戶現在我們的政府是代委操作那請問績效現在是怎麼樣"},{"start":208.237,"end":209.378,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":228.9,"end":253.917,"text":"所以目前沒有要考慮做修改目前我們其實這個議題各界有不同的聲音而且我們也有勞團他是持反對的意見所以我們認為說這個議題我們開放的態度但是請聽各界的聲音說是可以一定比例比如說60%由政府操作其餘可以開放讓勞工自主投資"},{"start":256.699,"end":259.087,"text":"我想各種意見我們都會來參考,各種意見來參考。"},{"start":261.618,"end":286.328,"text":"好,那再請教部長部長知道那個私校就是我們就是臺灣的年金制度中有6萬多的私校教職員就是處金是最為特殊那這些私校的退府新制實施目前也沒有發揮預期的效益"},{"start":287.248,"end":298.151,"text":"那部長你認為現在的私校職災等保險可不可以跟勞保來做整併呢?本席是希望能夠有關心私校這些退府的教職員工"},{"start":316.34,"end":319.167,"text":"立法院第10屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第15條之一"},{"start":321.431,"end":323.873,"text":"等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":351.651,"end":353.733,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":372.56,"end":393.484,"text":"昨天北捷的工程又發生公安事故。」那這個監督方面我們現在要怎麼做?臺北市政府勞檢處目前正在做一些實在的調查,那之後了解也會做相關的部分。"}]}},{"id":"149012","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149012","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d67e01be54a66e1a8bab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a032216680b52cefca5135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐志榮","委員發言時間":"10:12:20 - 10:22:35","影片長度":"00:10:15","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":615,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:22:35+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:12:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":441,"blocks":[["徐委員志榮：（10時12分）謝謝主席，拜託許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：徐委員好。"],["徐委員志榮：部長，我這會期好像對勞動部是最軟的，然後最低工資法又過了。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員的支持。"],["徐委員志榮：今天是這會期最後一次質詢，我們今天主要講勞退條例，當勞工朋友退休以後，勞保跟勞退應該是他最主要的經濟來源，剛剛也聽了所得替代率等等，照我們現有的制度來講，領最低工資的人應該有百分之三十幾吧？"],["許部長銘春：至少應該有……"],["徐委員志榮：應該有三百多萬人嘛，領最低工資的勞工做了30年、35年下來……"],["許部長銘春：領最低工資大概百分之二十幾，我們現在有二百多萬人。"],["徐委員志榮：那也還算滿多的。"],["許部長銘春：大概占五分之一。"],["徐委員志榮：這樣他們的所得替代率等等算起來夠他們生活嗎？夠他們安心的生活嗎？領基本工資的人也有可能一直做到退休都還是領基本工資喔！"],["許部長銘春：對。退休的話，要看他的年資。"],["徐委員志榮：算30年的話，大概……"],["許部長銘春：我們現在是……"],["徐委員志榮：再加個勞退的話，二萬多？"],["許部長銘春：差不多2萬7、8啦！"],["徐委員志榮：2萬7、8應該還馬馬虎虎。"],["許部長銘春：我現在的印象是2萬5,000元就也差不多……"],["徐委員志榮：還馬馬虎虎，可以過活了。然後我們就講到是我自己的觀念錯誤還是怎樣？我們勞保的公務預算來挹注，剛剛好像主席也有講過，好像已經提撥二千多億元嘛？"],["許部長銘春：2,670億元。"],["徐委員志榮：我不知道這個是對還是錯，我一直的觀念是公務預算如果不撥補到這邊，我不是反對喔！譬如明年的1,000億還可以到其他各部會，還有很多地方要用，我的意思就是說一直用公務預算撥補的話，好像不是真正解決勞保年金幾年後幾年後會破產的根本解決之道。當然部長一再地說我們政府負責最後的支付責任，也不可能會破產，也可以讓大家安心，但我一直覺得用公務預算撥補，甚至於你明年1,000億，有可能以後會超過1,000億也不一定吧？也有可能吧？"],["許部長銘春：對，明年就1,200億。"],["徐委員志榮：就會超過嘛！我的意思是那個錢應該其他部會也都還有需要用，我們的根本解決之道應該是在勞保年金的改革上。當然一講到改革就講到多繳、少領、延後退，當然這很難處理，假設沒有公務預算的撥補，有沒有什麼其他方法可以讓勞保年金不要這麼快的破產？"],["許部長銘春：跟委員報告，其實目前大概所有不管是學者專家、各政黨或者政府所研議、討論當中的方案……"],["徐委員志榮：最簡單最簡單的就是公務預算撥補。"],["許部長銘春：撥補一定要有，因為現在第一個，我們的費率其實最高就到12%；第二個，我們年資給付率是1.55。這個收支逆差從106年就開始發生，所以政府撥補這件事情是各個版本都一定要有。"],["徐委員志榮：部長，一定要有，但是一直擴張的話我覺得也不是根本解決之道。大家參考看看，譬如我們增加勞參率，這個勞參率可能是針對婦女姐妹朋友，他們可能因為工時不方便還是其他原因，所以比較沒有工作的意願，可以用變形工時給他們有方便的時間去當勞工，意思就是當勞工的話就比較有人繳錢，比較多人繳保費嘛，甚至於65歲退休，是不是有可能一步一步、慢慢的從65到66，或者是一段時間後再從66到67退休，日本好像也到70歲才退是嗎？"],["許部長銘春：對，日本……"],["徐委員志榮：我也不是很清楚啦，我也不好意思透露我的年齡，其實像我這個年齡，我要去工作的話還是很行的啦！所以稍微延後退的話……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，日本現在也是65，跟我們一樣，不過他們有研議要延長啦。"],["徐委員志榮：有研議要延長喔？所以我的意思也是說是否也可以研議延長，不是兵役的役啦，是研討看能不能延長。總歸就是我覺得一直用公務預算撥補雖然是必須要的，但是越來越多，你看從200億、300億、幾百億，數字好像越來越大了。反正就是開源節流嘛，延後退可能就是一種節流方式，開源可能就像我剛剛講的提高勞參率，當然比較主要的就是婦女朋友的變形工時，大概就講到這邊給你參考啦！","也有一些勞工朋友跟我提過，我們的勞保基金也是有委託代操，之前有一些人是想說他自提的部分可不可以他自己去委託民間的一些代操單位，甚至政府提撥的6%跟他自己提撥的6%是不是可以一起去委託？他可能認為他委託的獲益比較大。我知道我們政府會擔心他把自己的退休金老本委託到私人去以後血本無歸，退休生活更有麻煩，但是我一直在想，會提撥6%到代操的人不是會領基本工資的人，他應該都是電子新貴，一個月都是薪水幾十萬的人啦！不然那個6%，小小的錢操起來也沒有多少錢嘛！所以就算他提撥的6%跟政府的6%一起給它操，操到都算零的話，但他一個月領幾十萬、十幾萬薪水的人，生活也安全無虞啦！因此是不是我們也可以考慮，甚至於政府提撥的6%還在勞動部這邊操，而他自己提撥的6%，他搞不好一個月領薪水二、三十萬耶！他提撥6%去這樣代操的話，可能也是一種相當的金額，當然他認為他自己委外的話，獲益比部裡面操的多，他盈虧自己負責嘛！所以這方面是否也可以考慮啦？反正他自己去決定嘛！他自己決定，他要的話就自己負責嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對，謝謝委員剛剛的意見，我想這個部分我們都會去多聽聽大家的看法，的確如果……"],["徐委員志榮：當然在部裡面是有保障啦！"],["許部長銘春：對，就是我們會考慮到畢竟不是所有自提的勞工都可能是那麼高薪啦！有時候他自提的部分，他還是希望有保障，當然他自選之後，他自擔風險……"],["徐委員志榮：那當然啦！"],["許部長銘春：但我們會擔心像去年那種整個金融市場……"],["徐委員志榮：那他當然就自己負責啦！"],["許部長銘春：跌了兩、三成，勞工都很擔心啦！"],["徐委員志榮：對啦！"],["許部長銘春：所以我們會多重考量。"],["徐委員志榮：我的意思是，會去提撥給民間操作的人，他領的薪水一定是很多的啦！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["徐委員志榮：萬一那邊泡湯掉，他領的薪水應該都還沒問題啦！"],["許部長銘春：對，其實……"],["徐委員志榮：我的論點是這樣。"],["許部長銘春：像這些高薪的，他其實也可以回到市場機制去選擇商品，也是一個方式，那也是一種自選，所以他其實不一定要進到這個自提裡面來，他也可以把自己本來要自提的，他其實就可以去購買商品嘛！"],["徐委員志榮：他也有可能自己在玩嘛！"],["許部長銘春：就是金融市場上的商品，譬如固定買基金或什麼，那又是另外一個投資方式，其實我們都鼓勵大家多方去理財，但最重要的就是一定要有保本啦！"],["徐委員志榮：對，我瞭解。"],["許部長銘春：不然的話，這個勞工的退休金，這是他退休經濟生活的安全，這很重要。"],["徐委員志榮：好，謝謝部長，也是給你參考而已啦！"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員志榮：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請陳椒華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.9797187500000004,"end":4.755968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.92471875,"end":5.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.021593750000001,"end":6.544718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.79784375,"end":7.5572187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.92846875,"end":8.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.50221875,"end":8.535968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.535968750000002,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.56971875,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.974718750000001,"end":9.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.61971875,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.024718750000002,"end":13.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.21034375,"end":24.398468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.15471875,"end":19.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.32284375,"end":22.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.36909375,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.60534375,"end":23.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.68971875,"end":23.723468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.53346875,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.668468750000002,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.96784375,"end":27.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.59596875,"end":49.744718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.85846875,"end":52.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.52034375,"end":59.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.47284375,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.57409375,"end":62.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.78471875,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.10534375,"end":64.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.21846875,"end":70.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.22659375,"end":71.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.64846875,"end":73.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.59346875,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.17534375000001,"end":76.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.79534375,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.02284375,"end":80.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.35596875,"end":83.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.93346875,"end":88.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.09721875000001,"end":91.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.42596875000001,"end":91.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.49346875,"end":91.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.76346875,"end":92.01659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.01659375000001,"end":92.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.21909375,"end":95.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.38784375,"end":92.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.43846875000001,"end":92.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.42971875,"end":94.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.44659375,"end":94.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.02846875,"end":100.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.98159375,"end":101.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.04471875,"end":102.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.54659375,"end":103.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.03596875000001,"end":104.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.31846875000001,"end":109.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.22096875000001,"end":107.69346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.28409375000001,"end":110.86596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.89971875,"end":114.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.35096875,"end":112.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.43096875,"end":116.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.72159375000001,"end":116.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.51471875000001,"end":137.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.68471875,"end":138.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.47346875,"end":145.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.20221875000001,"end":151.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.38284375,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.97096875,"end":192.659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«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":154.422,"end":165.37,"text":"其他各部會還有很多地方要用的。我的意思就是說,好像一直用公務預算撥補的話,好像不是真正的解決這個"},{"start":168.195,"end":193.639,"text":"老闆年金他們說幾年後幾年後會不會破產的這個根本解決之道啦當然部長您一再的是說我們政府負責最後的這個支付責任也不可能會破產是這樣也可以讓大家安心我一直覺得就是說用公務意義上的撥補甚至於你明年一千億也有可能以後會超過一千億也不一定吧也有可能吧對明年就一千兩百億"},{"start":194.039,"end":195.9,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":221.397,"end":248.353,"text":"那是不是說如果沒有這個公務預算的撥補我們假設啦沒有公務預算的撥補有沒有什麼其他的方法來可以對這個勞保年金不要這麼快的跟委員報告齁其實目前啦齁大概所有不管是學者專家或各政黨或是政府所研議的齁就是說在討論當中的方案齁"},{"start":249.611,"end":269.157,"text":"最簡單就是撥補一定要有因為第一個我們的費率其實最高就到12%第二個我們年資給付率是1.55那這個收支逆差就從106年就開始了發生所以政府撥補這件事情是一定各個版本都一定要有"},{"start":269.497,"end":271.878,"text":"一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":294.429,"end":297.172,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":310.803,"end":338.558,"text":"較多人繳保費甚至於說我們到65歲退是不是有可能一步一步的慢慢的65到66或者是一段時間66到67日本好像也到70歲才退還是怎麼樣我也不是很詳細的我也不好意思透露我的年齡其實像我這個年齡我要去工作的話我還是很行的"},{"start":341.859,"end":345.84,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":356.612,"end":377.565,"text":"嚴議延長,不是兵役的役,是嚴討看能不能延長。總歸就是說,我是覺得說一直用公務預算,雖然是必須要的,但是越來越多,你看從兩百億、三百億、幾百億,好像數字越來越大了。"},{"start":379.048,"end":402.349,"text":"所以這個反正就是開研節流嘛節流可能就是延後退的一種節流方式開研可能就我剛剛講的這個提高勞參力提高勞參力當然比較主要的就是婦女朋友的這個變形工時啦大概講在這邊參考啦還有因為有一些勞工朋友跟我提過這個譬如說委託"},{"start":405.014,"end":406.976,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":421.606,"end":445.704,"text":"帶草單位甚至於政府提撥的6%跟他自己提撥的6%是不是可以一起一起去委託他他可能認為說他委託的他的獲益比較大但是我知道我們政府會擔心說把他自己退休金的老本不要委託到那個私人的那個部分去以後"},{"start":446.705,"end":448.507,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":468.061,"end":484.734,"text":"所以說就算他提拨的6%跟政府的6%一起給他抄,抄到沒有破都算零的話他一個月他領幾十萬十幾萬薪水的人他的生活也安全無疑啦所以是不是我們也可以考慮說"},{"start":487.443,"end":514.41,"text":"甚至於政府提撥的6%還在勞動部這邊抄他自己提撥的6%他搞不好一個月領薪水二三十萬他提撥6%去這樣代替抄的話可能也是一種相當的金額當然他認為說他自己委外的話會議比部裡面抄的多他自己盈虧他自己負責所以這方面是否也可以考慮"},{"start":516.209,"end":521.699,"text":"反正他自己去決定嘛。他自己決定他要的話你就自己負責嘛。"},{"start":524.712,"end":548.389,"text":"謝謝委員的剛剛的意見我想這個部分我們都會去多聽聽大家的看法那的確就是說如果當然在部裡面是有保障對 那就是說我們會考慮到說畢竟不是所有自選的勞工自體的勞工他可能都是那麼高薪所以有時候他的自體的部分他才是希望有保障"},{"start":549.19,"end":569.382,"text":"所以如果說當然你說他自選之後他自擔風險我們都會擔心說像去年那種金融整個金融市場跌了兩三成勞工都很擔心所以我們會多種考量我的意思是說會去提撥給民間操作的人他領的薪水一定是很多的萬一那邊泡湯掉他領的薪水應該都還沒問題"},{"start":573.084,"end":589.97,"text":"而其實像這些高薪的他其實也可以回到市場機制去選擇商品也是一個方式那也是一種自選就他其實不一定要進到這個自體裡面來他也可以把自己本來要自體的他其實就可以去購買商品就是金融市場上的商業"},{"start":592.881,"end":594.923,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案。"}]}},{"id":"149011","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149011","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d65788c97d296cb506ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a03221b1b31f5abdde3215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"10:03:10 - 10:12:14","影片長度":"00:09:04","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":544,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:12:14+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:03:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":403,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（10時3分）謝謝主席，麻煩請勞動部發展署蔡署長。"],["主席（吳委員欣盈）：有請署長。"],["蔡署長孟良：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好。據悉我國已即將與印度簽署MOU引進印度籍勞工，本席並不反對這樣的政策，不過要透過今天的質詢跟勞動部做一些提醒。首先我想請教一下，印度籍勞工跟目前已經引進的東南亞國家的勞工，在生活的習慣上還有管理上會不會有很大的差異？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為印度其實在目前很多國家都有引進，東南亞大概目前據我們所知，像新加坡就有很多，其實印度基本上大部分跟一般的其他國家移工當然會有一些語言的問題跟宗教習慣的問題，各個國家其實對於移工本身的一些生活適應的調適都必須要做好一些準備，所以基本上在我們整個評估的過程當中都會去詳加注意。"],["陳委員瑩：好，因為剛剛你提到語言，畢竟他們光是方言就447種，官方承認就22種，所以在語言上是非常地多元化，將來這些印度籍的勞工，我另外再請教他們未來主要是補充什麼樣產業的缺工問題？"],["蔡署長孟良：謝謝委員……"],["陳委員瑩：你可能要講大聲一點，對準麥克風。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，關於未來在哪些產業有這些印度籍勞工的需求，我們後續會在工作小組會議當中與各部會做一些討論，看看缺口在哪裡。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們現在還不知道？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，因為未來到底在哪些行業需要開放由印度移工補充，還要做一些討論，目前我們在第一階段只是就來源國的部分做評估。"],["陳委員瑩：所以在還不知道哪些產業缺工、要補充哪些產業就直接先挑選國家？"],["蔡署長孟良：因為我們過去以往在開放的過程當中，第一個，跟來源國之間要先有一個合作意向，這是第一步。"],["陳委員瑩：沒關係！根據媒體報導，可能開放的行業其實也就是我們常見的缺工行業，像農業、製造業及營造業，由於這些行業的外籍勞工大部分都是居住在廠區以外的社區，針對印度籍勞工的生活管理，我想瞭解一下發展署有什麼樣的規劃及準備？"],["蔡署長孟良：目前針對印度移工開放，第一個要考量其來源和勞工素質，尤其是不能影響我們的治安部分，我們會特別注意。目前國內在移工管理上其實都有一些相關規範，我們也會在後續的工作會議當中做一些相關規劃。"],["陳委員瑩：聽起來好像對於他們大部分要居住在廠區以外的這些社區，在住的方面你們還沒有很具體的規劃及準備？"],["蔡署長孟良：就我們的瞭解，目前國內的移工，其實大部分雇主都會做一些妥善安排，就是在廠區內……"],["陳委員瑩：所以這個部分就是交給雇主去處理？"],["蔡署長孟良：他會做一些規劃，但要依照我們的規定來辦理。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們只是規定，規劃留給雇主自己去處理？"],["蔡署長孟良：我們後續也會協助。"],["陳委員瑩：其實你不用緊張，我今天只是提出一些提醒，如果這只是規定，而你們沒有及早做一些規劃準備的話，我良心建議你們還是多思考一些，也幫雇主多思考一些，會減少到時候可能會面對的問題，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：再來，印度是一個非常多元文化、種族，甚至存在階級嚴格差異的國家，他們的文字及語言對國內而言是比較陌生的國度，發展署有沒有儲備這方面的人才？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為印度確實非常大，它的語言真的非常多，英文只是其中之一，以目前外交部給我們的建議，後續大概會有一些來源地區的選擇，尤其語言部分也會納入優先考量，至於其他語言如印度語，這部分也跟委員報告，我們後續必須要跟學校或相關的翻譯資源進行一些合作。"],["陳委員瑩：每個人第一個想到的都會是語言，可能是翻譯的部分，我想再提醒，因為在宗教、生活、語言、習慣上的不同，而且也不是我們非常熟悉或其他來源國很熟悉的地方，所以有關於心理諮商輔導的部分，未來在這些不同國籍的勞工們有衝突的時候，怎麼樣來做協調，這方面的人才其實也都是你需要思考到的。對於印度籍勞工一旦進到臺灣，是不是也要接受一定時數的職前教育訓練？特別是職業安全衛生的教育訓練，我不知道你們有沒有跟職安署協調討論相關的教育訓練課程？"],["蔡署長孟良：現在我們跟職安署不管移工在來臺前或來臺後，職安衛的部分都會列入一個重點，未來印度移工也會納入整體來做一個規劃。"],["陳委員瑩：所以不會只有看護工需要而已？"],["蔡署長孟良：不會，都需要整體規劃。"],["陳委員瑩：好，因為我有看到職安署署長點頭。","再來請勞保局，我接下來想再提醒一下勞保局。"],["白局長麗真：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：你們投保對象的姓名欄位是不是適用印度籍勞工？會不會因為字元的長度太短，以至於無法登錄？聽說最長的曾經長到六百多字，一般而言，在印度的制度下，有些人的姓名真的很長，如果我們事先沒有做好準備跟因應，到時候會不會造成電腦資料庫當機？"],["白局長麗真：非常謝謝委員提醒，日後如果有相關的移工引進，我們會特別留意。"],["陳委員瑩：因為聽說有的還要再爭取或者他們還需要到1,000字，所以這部分本席在這邊做一個提醒。我今天提出的這些問題只是在提醒勞動部還有各所屬機關一定要好好規劃跟準備，既然行政院已經核定要與印度簽署勞務合作協定的內容，預定在年底前完成簽署，雖然時間上尚未完全確定，一直到真的進來可能還有一段時間，在人數上也都需要討論，所以預計明年才會正式引進印度籍勞工。但是我覺得有敏感度、有遠見、有責任感的機關首長會往前看，就會看見、遇見很多的問題，我相信在這個部長的帶領之下，大家一定會跟他一樣聰明，就各自業務職掌的範圍希望大家可以好好規劃跟準備，謝謝。"],["白局長麗真：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位有請徐志榮委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.89784375,"end":21.394718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.57596875,"end":23.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.085968750000003,"end":26.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.16596875,"end":28.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.90409375,"end":44.040968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.884718750000005,"end":57.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.89534375,"end":86.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.92034375,"end":96.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.57284375,"end":110.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.19096875000001,"end":111.62534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.45659375000001,"end":113.58284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.90346875,"end":115.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.33784375,"end":130.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.05284375000002,"end":131.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.39034375,"end":130.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.33534375000002,"end":144.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.14784375000002,"end":149.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.33659375000002,"end":151.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.31096875,"end":153.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.28534375,"end":166.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.36971875,"end":155.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.68471875,"end":177.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.10034375,"end":191.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.08534375000002,"end":213.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.98909375000002,"end":217.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.97159375,"end":227.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.84346875000003,"end":238.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.58471875,"end":239.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.87971875000002,"end":242.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.62596875000003,"end":248.09346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.44784375,"end":252.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.76409375000003,"end":250.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.83971875,"end":255.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.60284375,"end":271.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.41471875,"end":272.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.41034375000004,"end":296.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.58784375000005,"end":326.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.96721875000003,"end":368.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.06346875,"end":332.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.99471875,"end":367.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.76659375,"end":387.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.05471875,"end":398.31471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.17971875,"end":401.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.25971875000005,"end":402.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.19159375000004,"end":406.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.19096875,"end":407.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.77721875000003,"end":411.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.11846875000003,"end":412.65846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.38784375,"end":417.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.88971875000004,"end":450.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.05409375000005,"end":419.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.53846875000005,"end":451.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.79159375,"end":451.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.80846875000003,"end":456.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.46596875,"end":482.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.28471875,"end":515.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.66346875,"end":532.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.25971875,"end":536.75721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":16.23,"end":43.762,"text":"二、委員謝主席麻煩請這個發展署蔡署長,又請署長。好,委員好。署長好。據悉我國即將與這個印度簽署MOU引進的這個印度籍勞工。那本席並不反對這樣的政策,不過要透過今天的質詢跟勞動部做一些提醒。"},{"start":45.63,"end":56.861,"text":"首先我想請教一下印度籍勞工跟目前已經引進的東南亞國家的勞工在生活的習慣上還有管理上會不會有很大的差異?"},{"start":58.65,"end":86.464,"text":"跟委員報告因為印度其實在目前很多國家都有引進那東南亞大概目前據我們所知像新加坡他就有很多那其實印度大概基本上大部分跟一般的其他國家移工當然會有一些語言的問題跟這個宗教習慣的問題那各個國家其實對於這個移工他在本身的一些生活適應的條例都必須要做好一些準備那這基本上在我們在整個評估的過程當中都會去想加注意"},{"start":87.52,"end":113.21,"text":"因為剛剛你提到語言畢竟他們光是這個方言就447種那這個官方承認就22種所以是相當在這個語言上是非常的多元化那將來這些這個印度籍的勞工主要我另外再請教就是說他們未來主要是補充什麼樣的這個產業缺工的問題你可能要講大聲一點對準麥克風"},{"start":116.191,"end":143.018,"text":"跟委員報告在目前印度未來在哪些產業有這些需求其實目前我們在後續在工作小組會議當中跟各部會其實會做一些討論在缺口在哪裡所以你們現在是還不知道現在基本上到底未來在哪些開放行業需要由印度的移工來補充這個還要做一些討論那基本上我們在目前第一階段只是就來源國的這個部分做一個評估"},{"start":143.578,"end":144.358,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":154.321,"end":182.439,"text":"對,所以公文報告因為目前我們在整個的過去以往我們在開放的過程當中第一個就是說跟南韓國之間要先有一個合作的意向這個是第一步因為根據媒體的報導可能開放的這個行業啦其實也就是我們常見缺工的行業就是像農業啦製造業還有營造業那由於說這些行業的這些外籍的勞工呢大部分都是居住在"},{"start":183.521,"end":184.003,"text":"長驅以外的社區。」"},{"start":192.734,"end":212.916,"text":"我們目前在整個印度的移工開放第一個就是說從他的來源跟他勞工素質尤其就是說一些不能影響我們治安這個部分我們會特別注意那在國內目前在整個移工管理上其實都會有一些相關的規範這個目前我們大概都會在後續的一個工作會議當中都會做一些相關的規劃"},{"start":214.342,"end":241.692,"text":"所以聽起來好像就是對於他們大部分要居住在長區以外的這些社區在住的方面你們還沒有很具體的一個規劃跟準備?其實大部分就我們的了解以目前國內的運用其實大部分其實雇主都會做一些妥善的安排所以這個部分就是交給雇主去處理目前他會做一些規劃那要依照我們的規定來辦理"},{"start":242.671,"end":257.205,"text":"所以你們只是規定,然後規劃留給這個僱主他們自己去處理?我們後續其實也會協助。因為我今天其實你不用緊張,我只是提出一些提醒。"},{"start":258.687,"end":263.191,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":280.549,"end":283.112,"text":"甚至階級都嚴格差異的國家。文字與語言對國內而言是比較陌生的國度。在發展署你們有沒有儲備這方面的人才?"},{"start":298.125,"end":326.184,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前因為印度確實非常大他的語言真的非常那英文只是其中之一啦齁那目前如果以目前外交部給我們的建議其實後續大概會有一些來源地區會有一些選擇齁那尤其語言這個部分你會優先考量那至於說如果其他語言像印度語這部分也跟委員報告這個我們現在也後續必須要做一些相關的跟學校跟一些相關的一些翻譯的一個資源來做一些合作"},{"start":327.926,"end":351.741,"text":"當然每個人第一個想到的會是語言那可能就是翻譯的部分那我想再提醒就是說因為可能在宗教還有生活語言習慣上的這個不同那也不是我們非常熟悉或者其他這個來源國很熟悉的這個地方那所以就是說有關於這個輔導心理諮商"},{"start":354.062,"end":354.983,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":374.876,"end":402.426,"text":"那是不是也要接受一定時數的職前教育訓練那特別是這個職業安全衛生的教育訓練我不知道你們有沒有已經跟這個職安署協調討論相關的教育訓練課程對跟委員其實現在我們跟職安署其實在移工不管是來台前或來台後其實職安會這個部分會列入一個重點那未來印度移工也會納入整體來做一些工作所以不會只是看護工需要而已都需要整理過嗎"},{"start":403.22,"end":404.242,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":416.791,"end":436.291,"text":"我接下來想就是再提醒一下這個勞保局就是你們投保對象的這個姓名藍衛是不是有適用印度籍的這個勞工因為字源的長度會不會太短以至於說無法登錄聽說這個最長的曾經已經長到有600多字"},{"start":436.972,"end":447.785,"text":"所以一般而言在這個印度的這個制度下有一些人的姓名真的很長那如果我們事先就沒有做好這個準備跟因應到時候會被造成這個電腦資料庫當機"},{"start":452.194,"end":470.216,"text":"非常謝謝委員提醒那日後如果說相關移工的引進我們特別來留意因為還有聽說有的還要再爭取或者他們還有需要到一千字的所以這個部分本席也在這邊做一個提醒那因為我今天提出的這些問題"},{"start":472.098,"end":488.976,"text":"只提醒勞動部及各所屬機關必須好好規劃及準備既然行政院已合併與印度簽署勞務合作協定的內容預定在年底前完成簽署"},{"start":489.617,"end":502.328,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文"},{"start":515.64,"end":524.265,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"}]}},{"id":"149010","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149010","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d641a774a6c3414365ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322470cdfe8d0499ff35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳欣盈","委員發言時間":"09:55:31 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10:03:02","影片長度":"00:07:31","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":451,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:03:02+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T09:55:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":387,"blocks":[["吳委員欣盈：（9時55分）謝謝主席，有請勞動部長許部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["許部長銘春：委員好。"],["吳委員欣盈：部長早。已經快過一年了，然後也可能是我最後一次跟部長質詢，我想請問一下部長覺得大家今年討論的年度關鍵字，你知道這個年度關鍵字是什麼字嗎？"],["許部長銘春：缺吧！"],["吳委員欣盈：是的，今年的關鍵字是缺，不只是五缺，加上缺蛋、缺藥，對年輕人來說，因為通膨物價成長，大家也感覺到缺錢；當然貨物的負擔率、房屋率的比例也創下歷史新高，也讓年輕人感覺到缺房；勞保也即將破產，年輕人會更覺得缺退休金。依據調查，國人退休力連續3年不及格，其中未滿30歲的、30到39歲的又偏低，只有52分，國人雖然年紀增大，越來越接近退休的年齡才剛開始準備退休金，這時候已經晚了10到20年，所以本席認為政府應該鼓勵國人立即更早地準備退休金，透過時間以及複利的效果，退休金不是1比1的增加，而是倍數的增加。","今天想跟部長分享本席辦公室的試算複利的威力，譬如勞工25歲的時候開始提6%，每年只有3萬塊的薪水，而且假設他到60歲的時候，他的薪水完全都不成長的前提之下，等於勞工每個月只要花1,800元，退休之後每個月就可以領多於6,500元，一塊錢就等於變成3.6塊錢，可是很可惜的就是勞退新制這18年來，自提的比例只有14%，每年成長率不到1%，勞動部擬定未來的3年自提目標，其實未來是每年成長大概1.5%，可是實際上這代表在2025的時候總額才17.7%，本席認為其實這還是太慢了，如果每年是1.5%的提升的話，要到20年之後才能追趕到OECD國家。你看這個表格有寫說OECD的國家的自提比率，英國的話就79%、美國51%，臺灣像我剛剛所提的，就算是2025年到17.7%，還是相當地慢，因為一般民眾所謂的financial literacy，就是理財的知識是不足的，所以我也希望部長從政策這個部分能多予關心，我是覺得要提高自提比率必須要對症下藥。本席的辦公室也整理了勞動部的資料作出以下的圖表，觀察到2個事件，首先，像剛剛所提到的自提比率，目前為止有600萬的勞工沒有自提；第二就是低薪的困境，薪資越高，自提反而越多，所以如果以低薪的問題來思考的話沒有辦法短期解決，可是就要給勞工更大的誘因才能提升自提比率，本席建議勞動部可以參考農退條例，勞工為自提退休金，政府應該給予更多的獎勵，農退儲蓄金2021年開辦農民自提搭配政府相對的matching提撥的獎勵，這已經實施2年了，自提比率就快速地提升到了27%。","接下來有請主計總處上台，然後請許部長留步好嗎？","謝謝，針對勞退相對的提撥matching scheme，我辦公室也很負責地把這個算出來來瞭解財政的支出需要多少，以本席的草案，勞工自提滿6%，政府是相對提5,000元，但本席認為這次的政策如果更積極的話，自提1%到6%都可以給予5,000塊的獎金，讓全國人民的自提比率可以提升到5成，國庫將每年支出大概180億元，相對勞保撥補的高達2,570億元的話，政府應該可以負擔的，而且勞退補助直接進入勞工的戶頭，這跟勞保的撥補大水庫是不一樣的，我想請問主計總處對這個態度如何？"],["黃專門委員厚輯：基本上因為這個會增加我們國家整體的財政負擔，所以應該還是要就整個政府的整體財政一併考量，可能是沒有辦法就勞工這部分單獨這樣去處理，以上。"],["吳委員欣盈：不好意思，你戴口罩，我沒聽清楚。"],["黃專門委員厚輯：可能沒有辦法單就這個部分去處理，因為可能還是要就我們整個政府的財政來做考量，而且這可能會有財政紀律法的問題。"],["吳委員欣盈：好，所以還在考慮當中就是了？好，謝謝。","最後就是許部長想跟您說，目前15歲到29歲的青年，每年平均是3.4萬來說的話，自提6%就大約是2,000元，如果政府補助5,000元的話就等於是2.5倍的獎金，本席相信如果勞動部願意把這些數字呈現出來，對年輕人來說是一定很有感的。另外就是勞動部也可以思考雇主提撥超過6%給予企業稅優，我今天只是希望能拋磚引玉，然後以整體政策的配套，希望勞動部也可以全盤考量，能提出民眾真正有感的政策，讓我們全民的退休金能提升，謝謝您。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員的提議，這個就是要增加自提的具體方法，因為這牽涉到財政，我們會跟相關部會一起討論，謝謝您。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","下一位陳瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.3472187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.57346875,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.429718750000003,"end":13.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.020343750000002,"end":14.745968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.99846875,"end":34.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.55284375,"end":36.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.39659375,"end":36.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.46409375,"end":36.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.987218750000004,"end":37.611593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.814093750000005,"end":40.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.969718750000006,"end":48.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.626593750000005,"end":57.338468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.27909375,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.61159375,"end":71.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.08721875,"end":75.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.82909375,"end":78.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.47846875,"end":89.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.53596875000001,"end":98.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.40784375000001,"end":105.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.75284375000001,"end":107.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.98034375,"end":121.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.69971875,"end":127.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.34846875,"end":130.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.87971875,"end":134.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.03096875,"end":135.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.31346875,"end":149.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.72909375,"end":180.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.52596875,"end":185.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.65596875,"end":214.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.38971875000001,"end":219.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.57471875000002,"end":220.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.92471875,"end":225.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.69159375,"end":229.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.05409375000002,"end":233.32784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.44596875000002,"end":237.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.85034375,"end":238.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.14971875,"end":243.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.58784375000002,"end":248.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.57846875,"end":261.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.74534375,"end":264.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.46221875000003,"end":264.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.35659375,"end":270.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.19971875000005,"end":270.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.43159375,"end":272.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.64221875000004,"end":274.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.63784375,"end":274.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.65471875000003,"end":274.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.67159375,"end":274.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.73909375,"end":274.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.77284375,"end":275.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.59534375000004,"end":277.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.28221875,"end":283.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.86659375,"end":296.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.94659375000003,"end":306.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.34596875,"end":306.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.18971875,"end":310.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.61534375,"end":317.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.83784375000005,"end":326.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.96721875000003,"end":327.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.05159375,"end":328.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.43534375,"end":330.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.05096875000004,"end":331.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":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literacy就是財經的一些理財的知識是不足的所以我也希望說部長從政策這個部分能多於關心"},{"start":199.016,"end":225.581,"text":"那我是覺得說要提高自體比率呢必須要對症下藥那本席的辦公室也整理了勞動部的資料做出以下的這個圖表那觀察到兩個事件就是首先像剛剛所提到的自體比率目前為止達高六百萬的勞工沒有自體那第二就是說這個低薪的困境薪資越高自體反而越多"},{"start":227.768,"end":247.453,"text":"所以如果以低薪的問題來思考的話沒有辦法短期解決可是就要給勞工更大的誘因才能提升自體比率那本期建議勞動部可以參考這個農退條例勞工為自體退休金政府應該給予更多的獎勵"},{"start":249.879,"end":269.931,"text":"農退儲蓄金2021年開辦農民自體搭配政府相對的Matching提撥的獎勵,這已經實施了兩年了,自體比率就快速提升到了27%。接下來想有請主席處上台,然後請許部長留步好嗎?主席處"},{"start":296.141,"end":309.586,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案：立法院第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第19會"},{"start":311.147,"end":334.578,"text":"以本席的草案這個勞工部自提的百分之滿百分之六政府是相對提五千元但本席認為這次的政策如果更積極的話自提百分之一到百分之六都可以給予五千塊的獎金讓全國的人民自提比率可以提升到五成那國庫呢將每年支出大概一百八十億元"},{"start":339.45,"end":353.962,"text":"兩千五百七十億元的話政府應該可以負擔的而且就是勞退補助直接進入勞工的戶頭這跟勞保的撥補大水庫是不一樣的那我想請問說主計處對這個態度如何"},{"start":358.914,"end":384.721,"text":"對,基本上因為這個會增加我們國家整體的財政負擔,所以應該還是要就整個政府的整體的財政來一起一併做考量,可能是沒有辦法就勞工這部分單獨這樣去處理,以上。就可能沒有辦法單就這個部分去處理,因為還是要就我們整個政府的財政來做考量,而且這可能會有財政紀律法的問題。好,就是還要在,所以還在考慮當中就是了。"},{"start":385.52,"end":395.043,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":403.366,"end":422.214,"text":"補助五千元等於2.5倍獎金。本席相信,如果勞動部願意把這些數字呈現出來,對年輕人來說是一定很有感的。另外,勞動部也可以思考僱主提撥超過6%給予企業的稅優。我今天只是希望能拋磚引玉,"},{"start":423.654,"end":445.854,"text":"以整體政策的配套,希望勞動部也可以全盤考量,能提出民眾真正有感的政策,讓我們全民的退休金能提升。謝謝您。好,謝謝委員的提議。這個就是要增加自體具體的方法。那我們未來跟相關部會,因為這牽涉到財政,相關部會一起來討論。謝謝您。謝謝五委員。下一位。"}]}},{"id":"149009","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149009","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d60f8cd2919e083458ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322d00e2261dae0cf995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張育美","委員發言時間":"09:42:19 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09:55:23","影片長度":"00:13:04","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":784,"end_time":"2023-12-13T09:55:23+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T09:42:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":309,"blocks":[["張委員育美：（9時42分）謝謝主席。請勞動部許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：張委員好。"],["張委員育美：部長早。近日有媒體把退休率當作議題，撰寫一系列的報導。由於現在醫療進步、科技發達，人人都可以成為百歲人的候選人，為預備將來的長壽生活，健康、財務、社會連結都缺一不可。根據遠見雜誌的調查，國人退休之後的養老資金主要來自於退休年金制度的有63.3%，這是複選，其次為儲蓄或定存56.3%，基金、股票等投資是50.7%，足見國人的退休準備高度仰賴政府退休年金制度。然而根據勞動部統計，勞退新制實施了18年，全臺740萬的勞工預計今年勞退自提率只有14.69%、不到15%，表示仍然有多達600萬的勞工、85%的勞工不願意自提。請問部長，勞動部是否有進一步瞭解，勞工自提意願低落的原因是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：既然這個叫自提，自願提繳就是要尊重他的意願。為什麼沒有來自提？可能第一個、他是不是經濟的負擔比較重，薪水不夠……"],["張委員育美：低薪，錢因為通膨變小。"],["許部長銘春：有些人可能自己就去找商業保險或者到市場上去投資運用，這些都有可能。基本上，我們也是儘量鼓勵自提，尤其薪資水平比較不是那麼高的員工，能夠有累積儲蓄這樣的作用。"],["張委員育美：據我所知，我大學畢業後待在外商公司就享有勞保，我忘了那時候有沒有自提率，可是外商公司就已經有這種我們提多少、雇主提多少的退休金比例制度。那時候是30年前了！"],["許部長銘春：勞退是103年施行的。"],["張委員育美：對，30年前我在外商公司的時候，它不是用勞保，是用公司的，我們拿出幾percent，我記得那時候就6%。"],["許部長銘春：對，國外的制度就是勞工要先自提，雇主相對地就會提撥，跟我們不太一樣。"],["張委員育美：對，我們公司自提，所以我們不管有沒有退休、做幾年，收入在離職之後都還不錯，這是我提醒勞動部部長的。","世界銀行指出，我們退休後所得替代率至少要達當時工作收入的六成，才能支應理想生活的品質。以2022年勞保一個月平均給付1萬8、勞退平均6,500，就是2萬4來講，估算退休後每個月年金收入不到2萬5，遠低於國人平均總薪資5萬7，我們不是說六成嗎？六成就要3萬4，我們只有2萬5，所以少了1萬塊，如果將通膨飆漲、投資市場波動等影響納入，會增加國人退休後的財務風險。對此，勞動部近來表示正在蒐集各方的意見，兼顧企業經營之下，所謂企業經營就是怎樣去撥補，朝向勞工退休保障有更好的制度。再問部長，目前有哪些調整方向呢？現在退休後的收入都不到2萬5，可是我們大概需要的是3萬4，差了差不多1萬塊。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們現在其實算一算……"],["張委員育美：我們現在2022年的平均。"],["許部長銘春：其實勞保還要再加勞退喔。"],["張委員育美：對呀，勞退……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我跟你說，我們的所得替代率……"],["張委員育美：勞退6,500嘛。因為很多人不提撥，剛剛講85%的人不提撥，所以他以提撥0來算。85%的人不提撥，當然有提撥的是不只啦！"],["許部長銘春：不是，報告委員，自提的另外一回事，我們有固提，固提6%是一定要提的喔，所以我們的退休基本上是勞保加勞退……"],["張委員育美：我知道，但是自提沒有就……"],["許部長銘春：所以我們算一算，大概如果30年的勞工……"],["張委員育美：自提可以0啊！可以6加6，但是員工可以0啊！85%的人是0耶！自己提呀！雇主6%，我知道。"],["許部長銘春：我跟你說，我們的所得替代率如果以平均月投保薪資目前來講大概3萬7……"],["張委員育美：六成才夠。"],["許部長銘春：我們的所得替代率有68%，我們的退休可以領的是3萬4,386。"],["張委員育美：哪裡，2022年退休領的是1萬8加6,500呀！加起來耶！"],["許部長銘春：你是用平均薪資，我們是用投保薪資來看……"],["張委員育美：對。"],["許部長銘春：可能我們比較的基礎不太一樣。委員，我們其實如果以勞保加勞退，一般我們假設工作30年，其實我們的所得替代率沒有比別人低，沒有比OECD的國家……"],["張委員育美：現在多少？"],["許部長銘春：大概68%。"],["張委員育美：60%嘛，一定要六成。"],["許部長銘春：我們有到68%耶！我這個資料再給您，委員。"],["張委員育美：你把你現在的數字給我，因為我們是摘錄2022年勞保一個月平均給付1萬8加上勞退6,500，是這樣算的，這是資料上的。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們的重點在這裡，我們是103年才施行勞退……"],["張委員育美：對。"],["許部長銘春：我們到現在還不到10年，所以勞退平均月領6,500……"],["張委員育美：對。"],["許部長銘春：可是你如果算30年就不只啦！以30年來算，你的再加20年進去，平均月領不只這樣啦！"],["張委員育美：但我們現在就有人退休了，2萬5還是不夠……"],["許部長銘春：我是說比較基礎不能……就要看，你看國外可能是……"],["張委員育美：比較久以前。"],["許部長銘春：比較久了，但是我們勞退新制是103年才開始。"],["張委員育美：對，才開始。"],["許部長銘春：所以我們會得出一個勞退平均月領6,500……"],["張委員育美：勞退新制18年了耶！"],["許部長銘春：對不起，勞退新制18年了，但是也不到30年，我修正一下，但也不到30年。"],["張委員育美：好啦，不到30年，我知道，因為退休大概是工作25年以後就可以退休，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對，但是我們有……"],["張委員育美：好，不到30年。如果30年的話，勞退平均就不會6,500而已，你的意思是這樣？"],["許部長銘春：委員，我會把資料給你，我們一樣算30年，如果以我們現在的勞退來算的話，我們的所得替代率沒有比較低……"],["張委員育美：要六成！"],["許部長銘春：有到六成，到68%。"],["張委員育美：你說到六成八，請你把資料給我。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["張委員育美：有達到那最好，對不對？我們的勞退只有18年，不到30年，所以勞退平均當然就只有6,500，你說如果30年就更高的意思，是不是？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["張委員育美：你的意思說有達六成八，我們的替代率是要六成，所以請勞動部長把資料送到我辦公室，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：好，可以。"],["張委員育美：接著我再問，我要談女性對於經濟的貢獻，事實上女性對於企業的影響力早在各領域中展現，根據臺灣女董協會女性治理白皮書所發表，在台灣上市公司28個產業當中，僅有3個產業沒有女性領導人，在疫情期間由女性所領導的企業仍穩健成長，與整體產業相比毫不遜色，可見女力對於經濟的影響已經全面擴散。我們知道哈佛大學有一個教授叫戈丁，他認為來瞭解女性勞動市場是非常charming的，是非常重要而且迷人的。","回顧我國女性勞參率，女性在未結婚之前很高，未結婚之前是89.9%，可是結婚之後呢？我們來看，從1980年的39.21%一路成長到2013年的五成，目前是51.5%，日本、韓國是53.5%和53.3%，比我們高差不多2%，新加坡六成四，北歐國家是七成一，數據上來看我們近一半的女性在30歲以後沒有投入勞動職場，請問部長有沒有瞭解原因啊？結婚之前很高，跟男性差不多，大概89.9%，你看，30歲以後突然往下降，什麼原因呢？"],["許部長銘春：主要就是婦女在國內結婚之後育兒的責任大部分還是……"],["張委員育美：為什麼日本、韓國還是比我們高？53.3%。"],["許部長銘春：婦女在就業這個議題必須考慮到育兒還有他的家庭照顧的問題。"],["張委員育美：日本、韓國也是要照顧孩子，日本人更是在家裡照顧孩子。"],["許部長銘春：所以我們這個部分目前也在努力，讓這些婦女再就業，能夠容易來銜接重返職場，也要鼓勵雇主僱用而且提供友善的職場，讓她能夠將工作跟家庭兼顧。我們現在有很多的計畫都在推動，我們希望把整個婦女的勞參率能夠提高，各國的經驗我們都有來參酌。"],["張委員育美：部長你說的是二度就業，我覺得不是二度就業，就像醫療應該prevetion……"],["許部長銘春：我說的是再就業……"],["張委員育美：再就業就是婦女再就業計畫，你花了27億，對不對？希望10萬婦女能夠回來再就業，可是我覺得應該是讓他不要離職，如果離職你要回來再就業是很難的喔！所以我們30歲以後變成51.5%，輸給日本、韓國，我是覺得比較要強調的是，你剛剛有講對了，就是友善的環境，比如育兒的環境，還有家庭照顧、老人家的環境，日本為什麼就職率比我們高，你知道嗎？就是30歲以上的女性就職率、在職率比我們高，是因為日本實施了長期照顧來照顧老人，所以不是只有你的問題，衛福部也是要關心的，經濟部都要關心，它實施了長照保險法讓我們老有所養，小孩子也有所養。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，像我們在性工法裡面也有育嬰留職停薪……"],["張委員育美：對，這個是友善的環境……"],["許部長銘春：目的是希望他續留職場，但是有些婦女可能還是會選擇在小朋友幼小的時候能夠多多陪伴，像這種情況我們也必須尊重意願，但是如果讓她能夠順利重返職場，而且能夠銜接職場，這個部分就是我們現在的婦女再就業計畫裡面一直在努力，能夠讓婦女在職場上的勞參率能夠提高。"],["張委員育美：我的意思是說，同樣是亞洲的日本、韓國，他們的在職率就比我們高2%，所以我們還是要去學習，日本很重視，他們不是很多女性結婚之後在家裡照顧孩子嗎？可是勞參率還比你高，新加坡更高，我們不是都一樣是亞洲國家，東方文化不是都很像嗎？以教育孩子為主，所以我覺得應該建議勞動部要關心托育資源的布建以及協助企業鏈結長照資源來讓我們婦女可以安心去就業，你說對嗎？所以不是只有你的問題而已，不是勞動部，還要結合其他部門。"],["許部長銘春：對，謝謝。"],["張委員育美：謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：我們來努力，謝謝。"],["主席（張委員育美代）：下一位吳欣盈委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":4.047218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.30034375,"end":6.308468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.202843750000001,"end":7.945343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.77596875,"end":27.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.70596875,"end":60.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.540343750000005,"end":76.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.62659375,"end":92.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.14721875000001,"end":93.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.16409375,"end":93.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.18096875,"end":113.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.92159375,"end":106.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.89596875000001,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.02596875,"end":113.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.49846875,"end":116.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.56159375,"end":115.20284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.36284375000001,"end":126.62721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.93971875000001,"end":125.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.08284375000001,"end":137.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.32721875000001,"end":129.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.12346875,"end":137.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.61284375,"end":137.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.81534375,"end":137.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.95034375,"end":138.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.00096875,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.30659375000002,"end":154.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.62284375000002,"end":157.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.38596875000002,"end":160.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.57159375,"end":162.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.23346875000001,"end":164.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.67221875,"end":163.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.06846875000002,"end":171.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.18659375000001,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.43471875,"end":172.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.32034375,"end":175.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.02034375000002,"end":176.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.86409375000002,"end":181.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.15034375000002,"end":181.55534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.18409375000002,"end":181.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.55534375000002,"end":181.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.75784375,"end":216.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.82534375,"end":182.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.70159375,"end":235.01534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.28534375,"end":253.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.38784375000003,"end":262.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.50034375,"end":264.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.51284375,"end":267.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.07784375,"end":268.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.14096875,"end":274.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.29284375000003,"end":270.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.97971875,"end":274.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.85721875,"end":279.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.68409375000005,"end":277.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.46846875,"end":279.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.15596875,"end":281.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.72971875,"end":286.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.65284375000005,"end":289.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.20971875000004,"end":288.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.13346875,"end":289.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.30221875,"end":289.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.57221875,"end":292.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.16659375,"end":298.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.10659375,"end":303.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.15721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«勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":154.673,"end":156.774,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十三條之一"},{"start":177.163,"end":177.704,"text":"勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":197.14,"end":216.496,"text":"而替代率至少要達六成你當時工作收入的六成才能支應你想生活的品質我們以2022年勞保一個月平均我們給付一萬八勞退平均這個六千五就兩萬四來講呢那估算推薦後每個月年收入不到兩萬五"},{"start":218.278,"end":233.454,"text":"這遠低於國人平均總薪資五萬七嘛我們不是說六成嗎六成就要三萬四那我們只有兩萬五所以少了一萬塊那通過膨脹投資市場波動這個影響納入呢增加國人退休後的財務風險"},{"start":235.636,"end":261.612,"text":"對此勞動部近來就有表示正在收集各方的意見兼顧企業經營之下企業經營就是這個我們怎樣的去一些的撥補朝向勞工退休保障有更好的研議制度那再問部長目前有哪些調整方向呢兩萬五嘛現在收入都不到兩萬五就退休後可是我們大概需要是三萬四差了差不多一萬塊"},{"start":264.676,"end":279.413,"text":"對,二、委員我們現在其實算一算有啊,對啊,我們現在平均二、二二年的平均我們其實勞保還要再加勞退喔對啊,我們算一算,對,報告委員我跟你說我們的所得替代勞退六千五嘛"},{"start":280.785,"end":302.457,"text":"因為很多人不提撥,剛剛講85人不提撥,所以他以提撥0來算啦85%不提撥,當然有提撥是不止啦不是,報告委員,字體是另外一回事,我們有固體固體6%是一定要提的喔,所以我們的退休基本上是勞保加保退字體可以0啊,可以6加6,但是員工可以0啊,85%是0欸"},{"start":309.949,"end":333.037,"text":"自己提啊!勞工顧主六趴啦我知道我跟你說我們的所得替代率喔如果以平均月頭保薪資目前來講六成才夠我們所得替代率有百分之六十八我們的退休齁可以領的是三萬四千三百八十六哪裡退休二零二二年是一萬八加六千五啊一二零二年這個啊加起來勒"},{"start":339.383,"end":342.865,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":367.128,"end":368.29,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":384.91,"end":408.463,"text":"報告委我們的重點在這裡啦我們是103才施行勞退啦所以我們到現在還不到十年啦所以勞退的平均月領六千五啦可是你有算三十年不止啦你把三十年再加二十年進去不止你平均月領不止這樣啊那我們現在就有人退休啦那兩萬五還是不夠所以我說比較基礎不能就要看啦"},{"start":410.084,"end":421.378,"text":"國外他可能是比較久了但是我們勞退薪資是103才開始所以我們會得出一個勞退平均月領6000元勞退薪資18年了沒有啦"},{"start":425.967,"end":430.328,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案案。adequate to 30 years."},{"start":455.236,"end":459.04,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":476.098,"end":490.293,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生�"},{"start":494.457,"end":522.559,"text":"女性自理白皮書的上司公司中28個產業只有三個產業沒有女性領導人在疫情期間穩健成長女性領導人企業整個產業比是毫不遜色可見女力對於經濟影響已經全面擴散我們知道哈佛大學有個教授叫戈丁他認為來了解女性勞動市場是非常charming的是非常重要而且迷人的"},{"start":523.96,"end":527.561,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條"},{"start":544.865,"end":570.922,"text":"一路成長到這個五成2013年的五成目前是51.5日本韓國是53.5和53.3比我們高差不多2%那新加坡六成四那北歐國家是七成一所以數據上來看我們在二十三十歲以後近一半的女性沒有投入勞動職場請問部長有沒有了解原因啊"},{"start":571.903,"end":572.965,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":584.363,"end":587.145,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":610.618,"end":624.432,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23會期社會福利及衛生環境"},{"start":634.282,"end":655.213,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案》案。netesi,你說的是二度就業﹖我覺得不是二度就業﹖就像醫療是應該的﹖我說的再就業﹖對﹖再就業就是說父女再就業你花了27億嘛對不對﹖希望10萬父女能夠回到再就業﹖可是我覺得應該是說讓他不要離職﹖如果離職你要回來再就業是很難的喔"},{"start":656.013,"end":659.355,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":683.707,"end":707.987,"text":"在職率比我們高是因為日本的實施了這個長期照顧那照顧老人所以不是只有你的問題那個我們衛福部也有問題也是要關心的經濟部都要關心的他實施了長照保險法讓我們的這個勞有所要小孩子也有所要我們在那個新公法裡面有暈流子停薪"},{"start":708.948,"end":711.649,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":735.854,"end":742.042,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":754.942,"end":782.841,"text":"兩種國家我們不是一樣都一樣的這種東方文化都很像嗎以教育孩子為主所以我覺得我應該要建議勞動部要關心這個托育資源的部件以及協助企業鏈結長照資源來讓我們婦女可以安心去就業你說對嗎所以不是只有你的問題而已不是勞動部還要結合其他部門對好謝謝部長我們來努力"}]}},{"id":"149008","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149008","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d6eaf7c36dfa1cca24ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322ea10da310c6467805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"09:30:54 - 09:42:10","影片長度":"00:11:16","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":676,"end_time":"2023-12-13T09:42:10+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T09:30:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":265,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（9時30分）謝謝主席。有請勞動部許部長，還有勞動部發展署蔡署長、基金運用局蘇局長。"],["主席：有請行政單位跟部長。"],["賴委員惠員：部長早。"],["許部長銘春：委員你好。"],["賴委員惠員：今天我們在審查勞工退休金條例這一個議題之前，想就移工的政策如何更友善來跟部長做一個討論。我們知道缺工時代的來臨，不只臺灣缺工，其實在我們鄰近的國家、全世界都面臨到相同的問題。勞動部對於缺工的議題已經檢討了很多次，包括開放農業移工或旅宿業移工，甚至在上個月，我們和印度簽署MOU的狀況，我們知道那個是一個假訊息，但是友善的移工聘僱流程怎麼樣才可以讓勞、雇主達到雙贏的狀態，是我們非常關心的。","針對不久前的一個遊行，新聞特別指出，直聘中心只專注在公文的行政程序上面，沒有顧慮到勞工生活適應的輔導，事實上是不是這個樣子？它也講到翻譯人員也缺乏，甚至有匿名的移工表示，在全臺灣的就業輔導中心裡頭，唯一的服務就是每一周固定通知你要去簽名，不然你就沒有辦法繼續拿到聘僱函。所以移工團體走上街頭提出五大訴求，包含政府跟政府直接聘僱、就服站雙語人員的增加、直聘中心整合各機關文件，甚至它特別強調文件流程的簡化，還有函示法規需要多語言的資訊。其實這個都是針對友善移工服務能量不足的訴求，我想在這裡請教部長，針對簡化流程，還有政府對政府直接聘僱，我們如何來處理他們提出來的這些問題？你怎麼執行呢？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，譬如說流程簡化，或是他們希望提供更多元的協助，這個我們都會來精進，但是我也必須說明，其實我們現在的直聘中心也提供很多多元的服務，還有便捷的申辦程序給直聘中心的使用者，當然不是每個制度都會讓大家滿意，但是有不足的部分我們都願意來檢討。"],["賴委員惠員：這個直聘中心是在今年11月成立的嘛？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，早就成立了，民國97年就成立了。委員，您剛剛講11月，那是移工留才久用專案服務中心，那個是針對中階的，我們這個移工的直聘是97年就成立了。"],["賴委員惠員：全國只有一個？"],["許部長銘春：全國目前就是一個，它就是一個行政協助，因為基本上現在我們的雇主聘僱移工本來就是多元的，他可以委託仲介，他也可以來直聘……"],["賴委員惠員：是多元化的嘛？"],["許部長銘春：是，多元化的。"],["賴委員惠員：是不是就是針對他們講的？因為這個大概是一個超過500人的抗議行動，是不是就像他們講的，這個直聘中心裡頭也沒有翻譯人員，文件又非常複雜？部長，我跟你講，會後提供資料給我。"],["許部長銘春：我可以提供資料給你，我跟委員報告，其實我們直聘中心的服務滿意度是達97.6%，當然我們現在申辦案件也都是全面線上了，移工的電話諮詢我們也都提供……"],["賴委員惠員：好，部長，沒有問題……"],["許部長銘春：但是有不足的部分，我們都會儘量把它做好。"],["賴委員惠員：我再針對製造業雇主聘僱制度的檢查，我特別把這個制度的討論拉出來。現在全臺移工大概接近75萬人，甚至更超過了，到目前是有多少人？部長，到目前全國的移工有多少人？"],["許部長銘春：75萬。"],["賴委員惠員：好，那是不是署長你來回答？我們全國的移工有75萬人，其中製造業就占了4.7萬人，尤其是看護工，這個是非常非常的重要，他接近3萬人，其他的還有8,000人，這個我們就不管了，可是在8.4萬的失聯移工裡面，越南籍占的最多，我就要請教部長，你們有特別講到製造業雇主聘僱制度，就是如果他的移工跑掉了，你們要把期限從6個月縮短成3個月，還要增加移工名額來作為鼓勵，但這3個月其實還是太長了，你要知道很多製造業工廠的生產線是一刻都不能停的，所以有沒有機會從3個月變為1個月呢？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，當初因為這個涉及就業服務法的修法，原來是6個月，後來基於缺工的情況，我們把它縮短為3個月，這個會持續檢討啦！其實這3個月的空窗期我們還是在協助，它有兩個面向，第一個，因為現在國內在一些就業的推介上，其實我們有在努力；另外，我們最近有一個新的制度，就是如果他去承接其他轉出的製造業移工，就可以多5%的名額，這部分是可以填補這樣的缺口。"],["賴委員惠員：所以這是一個鼓勵，已經非常明顯了，可以從6個月縮短成3個月，這是我們一個政策性的鼓勵，只是這3個月可以不可以再縮短成1個月呢？你們是不是可以再跨部會討論？這個是本席對你們的要求。","再來，今天我們也針對勞退金的自提可不可以自選來進行討論。就像剛才部長特別提到的，其實每個月雇主已經自己提撥6%了，然後勞工本身也提撥了6%，其實政府的美意非常好，我們希望勞工在他老年的退休裡頭能得到一個很好的保障。可是相對的，我們看了很多很多的資料後，我不得不佩服我們勞動部，基金的部分應該請局長上來報告一下，你對你自己這樣的投資滿不滿意？你還可以保障我們勞工有百分之四點幾的收益，你算是很厲害的！"],["蘇局長郁卿：謝謝委員，我們會持續努力，也會持續精進。"],["賴委員惠員：你手上有配置多少的市場分析人員呢？"],["蘇局長郁卿：我們人員相當有限，我們國內外都有配置相關的研究人員，同時因為我們人員有限，我們也希望借助國內外很好的資產管理公司來提供協助。"],["賴委員惠員：這個是在後端，我現在是在講前端，前端就是你們怎麼樣慎選並委託投資公司來幫我們操盤，我想知道怎樣的程序？你怎麼有辦法神準的給勞工4%以上的收益呢？"],["蘇局長郁卿：有關國內外受託機構的評選，我們有一定的程序，也會借重國內的專家學者來參加我們的評選。針對投資政策，我們一直秉持穩健的原則來進行，希望可以讓勞工有比較中長期的穩健收益，所以我們也不會只看短，而是會看整個趨勢。"],["賴委員惠員：部長，我再請教，當然你一定有信心幫勞工爭取到超過4%的獲利，但有沒有更好的誘因可以讓更多的勞工願意自提呢？有機會嗎？其實自提風險是很高的。"],["許部長銘春：目前自提沒有風險，因為沒有自選。"],["賴委員惠員：因為沒有自提，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：沒有自選。"],["賴委員惠員：對，只有自選。"],["許部長銘春：現在是鼓勵自提。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["許部長銘春：但是我們的基金願景就是統一投資收益，所以現在的自選完全沒有風險，一定是保證收益。這個部分我們……"],["賴委員惠員：所以一定保證嘛？賠錢還是政府來照顧。"],["許部長銘春：對，我們現在透過各種管道，包括也進到大學。因為學生畢業以後都要工作，我們提前進到大學讓學生瞭解，以後你工作可以自提，自提是儲蓄的性質，這樣沒有風險而且政府又保證投資收益，他未來可以長期累積退休的老本。我們會用各種的方式讓他們瞭解自提的好處。"],["賴委員惠員：憑良心講，我個人還是贊成現階段所有的政策。如果我個人可以選擇，我當然是可以選擇我自己運用，但我還是贊成現有的自提自選，希望就像你們的政策。"],["許部長銘春：就是自提，然後我們來投資？"],["賴委員惠員：當然，就是自提由勞動部來投資。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，有請張育美委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.4653437500000002,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.687843750000003,"end":18.981593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.33221875,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.75784375,"end":25.731593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.79909375,"end":28.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.937843750000003,"end":29.106593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.034718750000003,"end":30.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.00471875,"end":35.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.143468750000004,"end":46.892843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.80409375,"end":66.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.53534375000001,"end":73.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.97721875,"end":81.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.36409375000001,"end":112.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.41409375,"end":132.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.71909375,"end":142.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.75971875000002,"end":165.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.96284375000002,"end":176.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.59409375,"end":176.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.62784375,"end":176.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.28596875000002,"end":179.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.90159375000002,"end":200.43846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.08596875,"end":188.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.03346875000003,"end":200.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.53971875000002,"end":201.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.72096875000003,"end":203.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.56034375000002,"end":209.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.57221875000002,"end":212.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.53784375,"end":230.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.36034375000003,"end":215.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.56159375000001,"end":224.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.38409375,"end":224.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.57284375,"end":244.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.14221875,"end":233.78346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.03221875000003,"end":235.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.88346875000002,"end":263.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.60284375,"end":256.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.02471875000003,"end":256.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.71659375,"end":256.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.23971875,"end":257.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.30721875,"end":257.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.69534375,"end":257.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.04534375000003,"end":259.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.13346875,"end":272.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.99284375,"end":272.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.79846875000004,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.81534375,"end":273.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.69659375000003,"end":277.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.33721875000003,"end":283.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.96971875,"end":284.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.00346875,"end":284.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.96534375000005,"end":305.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.75846875,"end":286.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.48096875000005,"end":344.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.53534375000004,"end":310.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.53096875,"end":338.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.78721875,"end":370.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.62284375,"end":380.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.74784375,"end":413.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.92909375000005,"end":382.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.37159375000005,"end":385.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.82659375000003,"end":389.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.910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«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":113.479,"end":141.504,"text":"全臺灣的就業輔導中心裡頭唯一的服務就是每一週固定的通知你要去簽名不然你就沒有辦法繼續再那個拿到這個聘僱函那所以這個移工團體他走上街了他就是有一個五大的一個訴求他就講說是不是政府跟政府直接的一個聘僱然後就福站的一個酸乙仁眼的一個增加還是職聘中心整合各機關文件"},{"start":143.224,"end":165.242,"text":"甚至他特別強調就是文件流程的一個簡化還有就是韓式法規需要他一個多語言的一個資訊其實這個都是針對的友善移工的一個服務能量不足的一個訴求那我想在這裡請教那個部長就是說針對的這個簡化那個流程還有就是我們"},{"start":166.183,"end":169.369,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":177.335,"end":202.426,"text":"二、委員其實有些比如說流程簡化或是他們希望提供更多的多元的協助這個其實我們都會來精進但是我也必須說你說其實我們現在的職聘中心其實他是也提供很多多元服務還有這個便捷的申辦程序給使用我們職聘中心的那當然不是每個"},{"start":203.629,"end":205.691,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":231.918,"end":245.75,"text":"全國目前就是一個因為他就是一個行政協助啦因為基本上現在我們的僱主他聘僱移工他本來就是多元他可以委託仲介他也可以來執聘是多元化的嘛那是不是就是針對他們講的"},{"start":247.091,"end":248.012,"text":"三、委員吳美芬等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":264.31,"end":268.052,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條之一"},{"start":281.7,"end":304.759,"text":"但是有不足的部分我們都會盡量來把那我在針對的製造業的一個僱主的一個聘僱的制度的一個檢查我特別就是說把這個制度的一個討論拉出來那現在全台的移工有大概接近75萬了甚至還是更超過了到目前到目前是有多少人"},{"start":307.193,"end":310.894,"text":"三、委員吳美芬等21人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":338.821,"end":345.748,"text":"四連的移工裡頭,當然我們知道葉蘭吉佔了最多。我就要請教部長,你們特別講到製造業僱主聘僱的制度,如果他的移工跑掉了,"},{"start":357.72,"end":376.527,"text":"立法院第10屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環"},{"start":380.828,"end":394.513,"text":"而跟委員報告齁因為當初這個因為涉及救衛服務法的修法齁那原來是六個月那後來就是因為基於這個缺口下我們縮短三個月這個會持續檢討啦齁但是就是說這個三個月的空中期其實我們還是在協助還是在協助"},{"start":396.454,"end":398.216,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":420.595,"end":433.325,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文"},{"start":445.934,"end":472.97,"text":"就像剛才部長你特別提到了就是說其實我們每個月就是已經雇主自己提撥6%了然後我們自己本身勞工也提撥了6%那我們其實政府的美意非常好我們希望就是說勞工在他的一個老年的一個退休裡頭是得到了一個很好的一個保障可是相對的就是說我們看到了很多很多的一個資料裡頭"},{"start":473.971,"end":475.351,"text":"二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":495.559,"end":521.719,"text":"謝謝委員我們持續努力我們也會持續精進那你手上有多少的這樣子的一個就是在這個市場的一個分析分析人員這樣的一個配置我們人員相當有限那我們國內外都有配置相關的研究人員同時因為我們人員有限我們也希望藉助國內還有國外的很好的資產管理公司來提供協助"},{"start":522.697,"end":544.629,"text":"所以你們還是有這個是在後端喔我現在是講說前端前端就是說你們怎麼樣去慎選就是說那個委託我們的這個投資公司來幫我們就是操盤我想知道這個怎樣的一個程序你怎麼有辦法這樣省準的就是說可以給勞工4%以上的一個收益呢"},{"start":548.379,"end":572.955,"text":"有關國內外的受託機構的評選我們有一定的程序然後我們也會借重國內的專家學者來參加我們的評選那投資的政策部分我們一直秉持就是穩健的原則來進行那我們希望可以讓勞工有比較中長期的穩健收益所以我們也不會說只看短我們會看整個趨勢這樣"},{"start":574.056,"end":589.425,"text":"好,看整個趨勢,部長在這裡我再請教就是說當然你一定有信心就是幫勞工爭取到超過4%的一個獲利啦那有沒有更好的誘因可以讓更多的勞工願意自體呢?有機會嗎?其實這個自體風險是很高的"},{"start":593.223,"end":622.325,"text":"目前自體風險沒有風險自體因為沒有自選因為沒有自體嘛對不對沒有自選對只有自選現在是鼓勵自體對但是還是齁我們就是基金用局統一投資收益啦所以現在的自選完全沒有風險是一定是保證收益是齁所以這個部分所以一定保證嘛就是賠錢還是政府來那個照顧你對我們現在透過各種管道啦齁包括我們現在也進到大學因為讓學生畢業以後大家都要工作"},{"start":622.705,"end":626.706,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":640.931,"end":665.396,"text":"我們會用各種的方式去把這個自體的好處來讓他們了解。其實部長憑良心講,如果我個人的話,我還是贊成現階段所有的一個政策。如果是我個人的話,我可以選擇的話,我當然是可以選擇我自己,我還是贊成現有的一個自體自選,還是希望就是向你們的政策。"},{"start":666.325,"end":666.465,"text":"自體由勞動部來投資"}]}},{"id":"149007","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149007","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d6e2b54716803d258aab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322617961a7114e88395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:20:39 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09:30:48","影片長度":"00:10:09","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":609,"end_time":"2023-12-13T09:30:48+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T09:20:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":193,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時20分）謝謝主席，我們請許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。我們今天要討論勞工退休金條例的這個部分，確實坊間現在有非常多的聲音，就是到底怎麼樣可以對個人的退休生活保障最多，所以剛剛吳玉琴委員也在在提到了自提自選，這是一個很大的題目，覺得我有能力而且有意願，那我能不能夠有更多、更好、更多元的選擇，這是一種。","坊間個人的聲音是一種之外，其實在立法院當中，民眾黨黨團今年9月也提案要提高勞退的雇主強制提撥率從現行的6%直接到9%，但民眾黨主席柯文哲在政見發表會卻說他不會強迫提高，而是要提高企業的租稅優惠。在這樣的狀況下，我是想請教部長，雖然我看過你們用新聞稿的方式對這個提議有一些看法，但你可不可以在備詢台上再告訴我們，針對現在立法院有不同黨團提出了不同的聲音，第一個是提高強制提撥率，第二個是不見得要用強迫的方式，而是用企業稅率優惠的方式，那你怎麼看？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我想每一個黨團或每個委員所提案的都是站在希望……"],["蘇委員巧慧：大家都是討論嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對，討論。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但勞動部總是有看法，你覺得可行嗎？我們今天要審理。"],["許部長銘春：我們是認為，目前的階段可能還是比較適宜說我們用鼓勵的，鼓勵勞雇雙方，其實那是最低嘛！"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！現在雇主6%是最低嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對，最低，其實你還可以再提高。而現在也有，我們施行到現在，雖然不多，確實也有雇主就是比6%還要高。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是因為你有鼓勵？"],["許部長銘春：對，我們……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那你現在的鼓勵方式是什麼？人家說要用稅率優惠，那我們哩？"],["許部長銘春：當然稅率……"],["蘇委員巧慧：現行的方式是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：稅率的優惠，因為這個會牽涉到可能不是勞動部的權責。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，這會牽涉到非常多的部會。"],["許部長銘春：對，所以這個如果要……"],["蘇委員巧慧：而且需要精算吧！"],["許部長銘春：要精算，這個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：要精算吧！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你到底是提高多少以後會產生多少的效益……"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：以至於你要用多少的稅率……"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：減少了以後又會造成國庫多少的進出帳不一樣的部分。"],["許部長銘春：我就說這會牽涉到整體財政的問題、稅賦的問題，所以這個部分我們必須就是跨部會，如果針對這個議題要處理，一定是跨部會要來討論，而且更……"],["蘇委員巧慧：但你支持，鼓勵的方向……"],["許部長銘春：對，我們……"],["蘇委員巧慧：其實我們大家這幾年都討論得非常多，這也不是獨創的意見。"],["許部長銘春：對，我們當然會認同說這個是保障，對勞工的權益、對他的退休生活更有保障，但是怎麼更細緻、怎麼對於這個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那你認為這其中的可行和不可行，直接從6%提高到9%的部分呢？"],["許部長銘春：我是認為不能說一下子就講一個數字，這個必須大家去做一些討論之後才能夠……"],["蘇委員巧慧：勞動部有算過嗎？因為人家黨團都提案了，你有算過從6%直接提高到9%造成的影響是會多大、有多少人會受影響，然後數字是多少？"],["許部長銘春：提1%增加的雇主負擔是31.7億，應該是1個月吧！只要提高1%，對雇主的負擔……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我看到你們的回應，勞動部是表示，以今年6月底勞退新制平均提繳工資4萬3,922元，雇主是740.4萬的勞工提繳勞退金計算的話，如果提高了1個百分點，雇主1年新增加是390億元的法定負擔。"],["許部長銘春：對，1個月31.7億，1年是390億。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以直接從6%到9%，要增加1,170億。"],["許部長銘春：對，1,170億。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個分擔下去，每個人要負擔的其實也是相當之大，所以會影響的人數是多少？我認為這些東西，我們覺得如果現在勞動部的方向認為是還可以保留的，其實你在審查的過程中，你應該要把資料拿出來，讓大家能夠理解，因為你用總體數字的狀況，大家可能不會有感覺，大家會覺得很好啊！雇主多拿一點，我們的保障就更多一點，沒有問題啊！大家會朝這個方向去想，因為總統大選嘛，最近有很多提出來的政策都是這樣，乍看之下都覺得好像很好，但是精算下去以後，你就會發現其實它的數值差距非常大，影響的層面也是非常廣，而且繞了一圈，最後影響的還是你個人，你自己還是會受影響啊！所以這種我們稱之為包著糖衣毒藥的政策，這個東西你一定需要解釋，解釋雖然很龐雜，可是你還是需要解釋。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我覺得今天如果我們會進行到審查，我要求勞動部就這些部分的數字、影響的範圍應該要能夠提出來，我覺得大家這樣才能客觀討論，不然我們也會覺得雇主提高很好啊！但你不知道那個很好的後面受到了多少的影響，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是第一個，所以要求勞動部在審查的過程中，必須要提出這些數字，這是關於我們今天勞工退休金審查的部分。另外一個也想跟部長這邊請教，我們現在有一個是僑外生來臺就學的部分，其實是越來越多，其中又以越南成長的最多，越南、馬來西亞其實都是現在的大宗，我有兩個部分，上一次因為時間的關係來不及跟部長就教，比較細緻一點，想請問你一下，既然我們鼓勵這些僑外生，尤其是新南向政策當中的學生來到臺灣就學，而且看起來是有成效的，現在人數都是達到數千人，我看馬來西亞今年有5,253人，印尼有2,675人，越南也有到2,331人，其實是非常的高額。光是這三個國家就近萬，那麼有沒有留下來工作的？有吧？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：留下來工作的是多少？"],["許部長銘春：我請主管的單位跟委員報告。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，目前大概每年跟我們提出申請畢業後的工作，大概6,000人左右。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！為什麼是6,000人？因為你只開放6,000人啊！"],["蔡署長孟良：沒有。"],["許部長銘春：沒有，報告委員……"],["蘇委員巧慧：你這邊有一個工作評點許可名額啊！不是嗎？大家現在就是在討論這個額度啊！因為這個工作評點許可名額是從109年的2,500名、110年4,500名，再到111年、112年，現在是6,000名，我現在跟你討論的就是這個部分。沒關係，我們可以再討論，也許我跟您調的資料不夠精確，我就希望你給我更好的資料，我這邊收到的資料是這樣子，我們也問了很多僑外生，等一下部長可以回答沒有關係。其實來臺就學的僑外生越來越多，越來越多的僑外生也覺得臺灣很好，他甚至想留下來工作，但在申請工作的過程當中有名額的限制，現在的名額開放到6,000名了，可是既然你是歡迎他們來，你何必要有這個限制呢？有關名額，我先跟你討論就是這一點。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員，我先說明一下，那個6,000的名額是國發會，它每年針對僑外生的留用有名額的限制，但是我跟委員報告，國發會如果認為需要再增加，我們通通是配合的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以在這個題目上面，你的意思是勞動部是末端、你是配合國發會？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但是你要反映啊！"],["許部長銘春：但是我也同意未來這個可能……","其實我們在跨部會討論也曾經提出就不要有限額了，未來我們是基於鼓勵……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有啦，我覺得你雖然是末端，但是如果是這樣，我希望勞動部這邊可以做一個調查，變成給國發會的參考，就是僑外生留下來很好，對臺灣的經濟有幫助，對我們國家互相之間的邦誼也有幫助。能不能請你做一個調查，發現各行各業的狀況？而且這些留下來的僑外生，其實不只是初階人力，他們都是技術人才……"],["許部長銘春：是屬於中階的技術人才。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是很好的技術人才，大家不要誤會了，以為他是刻板印象中的外籍移工，完全不是這樣的狀況。"],["許部長銘春：是，不一樣。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我覺得這個名額是應該可以討論的。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我認為處於末端的勞動部應該要提供資料給國發會。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，最後，因為占了人家的時間，我只要講一個就好了，我們在鼓勵僑外生來的網站是有一站式的網站，然後是多語式的，可是當僑外生要留下來，能夠找工作、創業，這就屬於勞動部了，但勞動部在網站上面並沒有這種一站式資訊，也沒有多語的部分，我今天不再占用時間，謝謝主席給我時間，我也請勞動部可以對我的辦公室提出一個資料說明，我要求改進，在僑外生留用以及創業的這個部分，我希望有一站式的諮詢管道以及多語言，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：可以，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，下一位請賴惠員賴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.0178437500000004,"end":5.549093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.92409375,"end":49.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.69409375,"end":65.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.55659375,"end":72.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.50471875000001,"end":106.14096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.85596875,"end":94.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.37721875000001,"end":106.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.23784375000001,"end":115.67534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.80221875000001,"end":114.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.76409375,"end":118.86471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.70909375000001,"end":117.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.47659375,"end":121.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.93596875,"end":124.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.04096875,"end":128.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.21346875,"end":130.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.47909375,"end":140.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.26784375,"end":131.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.58284375,"end":143.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.36721875,"end":143.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.50221875,"end":143.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.67096875000001,"end":143.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.92409375,"end":143.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.94096875,"end":144.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.97471875000002,"end":144.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.41346875000002,"end":144.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.97034375,"end":145.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.03784375,"end":145.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.76346875000002,"end":151.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.78034375000001,"end":146.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.54346875000002,"end":149.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.37034375000002,"end":162.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.07846875,"end":155.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.12471875,"end":156.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.98909375000002,"end":160.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.81159375000001,"end":171.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.81096875,"end":166.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.14846875,"end":166.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.51096875000002,"end":169.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.99159375000002,"end":171.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.75096875,"end":171.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.78471875000002,"end":172.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.17284375,"end":172.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.88159375,"end":186.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.74034375000002,"end":192.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.93409375000002,"end":204.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.11721875,"end":209.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.82534375,"end":218.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.53284375,"end":227.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.86034375000003,"end":230.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.61471875,"end":240.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.61784375000002,"end":241.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.83284375000002,"end":242.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.99721875,"end":243.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.00971875000002,"end":244.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.56221875000003,"end":249.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.62909375,"end":249.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.67971875,"end":269.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.24221875,"end":282.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.50721875,"end":274.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.70534375,"end":275.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.59096875,"end":277.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.09284375000004,"end":281.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28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«勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":181.594,"end":201.585,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會立法院第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立"},{"start":210.09,"end":218.299,"text":"認為不能就是說一下子就講一個數字啦,這個必須大家去做一些討論之後,才能夠...這個我想對我們的"},{"start":233.663,"end":248.658,"text":"提一趴增加的那個僱主的負擔是31.7億一年一個月一個月吧應該是一個月吧你只要提高一趴對僱主的那個"},{"start":249.699,"end":274.173,"text":"我看到你們的回憶碼勞動部是表示說以今年六月底勞退薪至平均提繳工資四萬三千九百二十二元僱主是七百四十點四萬的這個勞工提繳勞退金計算的話如果提高了一個百分點僱主一年薪增加是三百九十億元的法定負擔一個月三十一啦三十一點七一年是三百九十億"},{"start":274.733,"end":275.894,"text":"三、委員三百九十一、委員一千一百七十一、委員一千一百七十一等"},{"start":295.967,"end":297.769,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議"},{"start":323.644,"end":343.833,"text":"而影響的層面也是非常的廣而且繞了一圈最後影響的還是你個人你自己還是會受影響到所以我們稱之為這種叫做包著糖衣毒藥的政策這個東西你一定需要解釋解釋雖然很龐雜可是你還是需要解釋所以我覺得今天如果我們會進行到審查的部分的話我要求勞動部就這些部分數字影響的範圍應該要能夠提出來我覺得大家這樣才能客觀討論"},{"start":349.795,"end":352.156,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案．勞工退休金條例第三十四條及第五十八條條文修正草案。"},{"start":365.581,"end":371.504,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案"},{"start":387.452,"end":402.819,"text":"既然我們鼓勵這些橋外生尤其是新南向政策當中的學生來到了臺灣就學而且看起來是有成效的現在人數都是達到數千人現在的話我看馬來西亞今年的話有5253人那印尼的話有2675人越南也有到2331人其實是非常非常的高額"},{"start":412.383,"end":414.303,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":437.708,"end":444.494,"text":"你這邊有一個工作評點許可名額啊不是嗎大家現在就是在討論這個額度啊因為我們現在這個工作評點許可名額的話是從109年的2500名110年4500名再到111、112年現在是6000名啊那我現在跟你討論的就是這個部分因為我沒有關係我們可以再討論啦也許我的資料齁跟您調的不夠精確那我就希望你給我更好的資料"},{"start":464.671,"end":471.528,"text":"我這邊收到的資料是這樣子就是我們也是問了很多橋外生等一下布朗你可以回答沒有關係就是"},{"start":472.911,"end":496.681,"text":"喬外森其實是來臺就學越來越多越來越多的喬外森也覺得臺灣很好他甚至想留下來工作但在申請工作的過程當中有一個名額的限制那現在的名額現在開放到六千了好可是如果你既然是歡迎他們來的話你何必要有這個限制呢這個名額我先跟你討論就這一點這個謝謝委員齁我先說明一下那個六千的名額齁"},{"start":497.361,"end":502.784,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案案案案案案﹚立法院第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會"},{"start":520.254,"end":522.356,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":537.449,"end":564.582,"text":"對對對對對對對對對對對"},{"start":564.642,"end":567.125,"text":"最後因為佔人家的時間我只要講一個就好了我們喬外森在鼓勵喬外森來的這個網站是有一站式的網站然後是多語式的可是我們這個當喬外森要留下來能夠找工作創業這就屬於勞動部了啦"},{"start":580.979,"end":604.315,"text":"勞工部在網站上並沒有一站式資訊也沒有多語的這個部分那我今天不再佔用時間但是謝謝主席給我時間那我也請勞動部這邊可以對我這邊辦公室提出一個資料的說明那我要求改進在橋外山留用以及創業的這個部分我希望有一站式的資訊管道以及多語言謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149006","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149006","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d6e275f41952e69f93ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a03227c45cb4d80bcee6c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳玉琴","委員發言時間":"09:09:26 - 09:20:33","影片長度":"00:11:07","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":667,"end_time":"2023-12-13T09:20:33+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T09:09:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":129,"blocks":[["吳委員玉琴：（9時9分）謝謝主席，我請我們許部長。"],["主席：有請許部長。"],["吳委員玉琴：部長早。今天是在討論勞工退休金條例，總共有15個提案，在這些提案裡面有一個很大的重點，就是勞工自提自選的部分，那我就這個部分來跟你討論。上一次10月25號我在質詢的時候，其實也針對自提自選的部分有跟部長做了一些討論，今天要跟部長討論的是勞退新制裡面相關的一個概念，到底是不是適合？因為你在報告裡面也特別提到對於自提自選的部分抱持開放的態度……"],["許部長銘春：對、對。"],["吳委員玉琴：我們就一起來討論。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["吳委員玉琴：我自己在整理這樣的概念，像社會保險跟商業保險到底有哪些不同，部長是法律專家，像這樣的一個所謂的社會保險，最重要是增進我們的社會安全，由政府擔任保險人或委託民間來辦理，而且這個保費也是量能付費，社會保險一定要有強制性，符合資格就要納保，不得拒保；商業保險當然不一樣，商業保險比較沒有強制性，可以在評估風險之後拒保。最終還有一個差異，就是我們政府負最終的責任，所以有政府的角色在裡頭，商業保險大概沒有人敢做這種最終的保證。您自己認為勞退新制看起來有沒有像是保險公司創設年金保險的商品？像嗎？你覺得……"],["許部長銘春：當然不像。"],["吳委員玉琴：我們推動的社會保險應該不是商業保險。"],["許部長銘春：絕對不是。"],["吳委員玉琴：性質還是有一點不同。"],["許部長銘春：不同。"],["吳委員玉琴：我們特別想跟您談自提、自選這個議題，您剛剛也在報告說這是可以討論的。我發現有好幾個委員的版本也都有提到，因為6%是雇主提撥的，目前沒有人討論要交給代操業者來做，沒有人這樣提，大概都針對自提，希望未來有自選的部分。在勞退新制裡面自提、自選的概念架構下，跟儲蓄險、基金的投資比較，會有幾個問題跟幾個不同的狀態。勞退新制還是比較屬於強制性的，雇主提撥6%，它是不可以任意調動的，但是勞工自提的部分是可以調整的，我可以自提2%、3%、4%到6%，這個部分也有保本，有強迫儲蓄的概念，只是現在沒有開放自選。在儲蓄險或是基金投資上就比較開放，可以自由解約，不能強迫你購買，保費也是由他們自訂，如果要調整可能要另外再購買新的保約。這個部分看起來跟勞退新制裡面的基金是不一樣的概念。"],["許部長銘春：不同。"],["吳委員玉琴：三個性質還是有差異性。如果把勞退新制自提的部分當作基金投資操作，這樣OK嗎？你的看法呢？"],["許部長銘春：對，我們說抱持開放的態度是願意多聽大家的意見，其實這個議題一直以來……"],["吳委員玉琴：討論很久，你聽到什麼樣的聲音？"],["許部長銘春：對，我聽到的當然勞團是抱持比較保守的意見。"],["吳委員玉琴：是有疑慮的。"],["許部長銘春：他們是有疑慮的。他們大概有幾個重點，第一個是認為整個勞退基金目前的投資績效……"],["吳委員玉琴：好像還不錯。"],["許部長銘春：還不錯，沒有比民間差。就像委員剛剛講的，它是社會保險，所以必須維持一定的……"],["吳委員玉琴：而且政府負最終的責任。"],["許部長銘春：扮演社會的角色，所以應該以長期穩定投資來保障，就是我們剛剛講的保本，它其實是保本，在保本的情況下才能保障勞工退休之後的經濟安全。第二個，他們認為如果要自選的話就回歸市場機制，它其實會像委員剛剛提到商品的部分，如果要自選的話，可以自己藉由這個回歸市場，由業者推出好的商品……"],["吳委員玉琴：我們就可以自選。"],["許部長銘春：勞工可以自己……"],["吳委員玉琴：這個商品的部分……"],["許部長銘春：他可以運用自己的積蓄、金錢投資。再來還有一個他比較擔心的是，自選的投資基金將來會不會淪為民間業者調節資金的工具？"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["許部長銘春：他們比較保守。"],["吳委員玉琴：這是勞團的擔心啦。"],["許部長銘春：當然支持的會認為自選就是我自己負擔風險嘛，我自己拿錢，自選是我自己願意提撥的，不是強制，我也願意自擔風險。"],["吳委員玉琴：我就是要問部長這件事，通常投資基金的時候，基金公司都一直提醒有賺有賠，賺錢、賠錢都算自己的，勞退新制的自提自選如果類似投資基金，我自選去投資了，那賠錢算誰的？賺當然是自己的，賠錢算政府的嗎？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，這要算自選勞工的。"],["吳委員玉琴：自選的話就是個人要負擔啊，所以勞工也要負擔這樣的風險，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對，他跟我們現在的……"],["吳委員玉琴：目前的勞退新制是……"],["許部長銘春：不一樣，我們這是保證收益，一定是保本。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["許部長銘春：但如果開放自提自選的話，就自選這部分就是自己負擔風險。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以未來的設計可能要更複雜了，如果要做這樣的設計的時候。"],["許部長銘春：會比較複雜。不過其實我們做過調查，就是去年做的，雖然有四成三的勞工贊成自提自選，但當你進一步問他說你會不會選擇自選，他就會說那他還要看商品。"],["吳委員玉琴：因為商品的複雜度也是……"],["許部長銘春：只有大概9%勞工說他一定會自選，但是73%還是保留，他說到時候是不是自提之後會自選，還要看投資的商品，標的是如何。"],["吳委員玉琴：我們熟悉或是我們能理解這些商品的優劣嗎？這都是下一個問題。但是我在10月25號也跟部長討論過目前自提的狀況，自提的數量大概是11.52%，大概有83萬人。"],["許部長銘春：已經14%了，到今年有105萬人。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，所以有提升了。但是當時2022年的勞退新制自提勞工月平均工資是6萬3,000元左右，一般的提繳工資大概是4萬元，所以是比較高所得的勞工，大概高1.5倍左右啦；另外問勞工未提繳退休金的理由是什麼？答案是薪水不夠，占了1/4左右，所以這也看得出來，可能薪水低或低於4萬以下的勞工，要教他提撥再自提，這部分的勞工可能會有生吃都不夠了還要曬乾這種心態。如果我們針對自提自選的再給予相關的這個，會不會造成我們是在鼓勵富者越富，或是逆所得、所得逆分配的一個概念？可能這裡要特別注意。部長，你的想法如何？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為自提的退休金是屬於個人專戶，就是提到個人專戶，其實它就是一個累積儲蓄的性質。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以不會影響到別人？"],["許部長銘春：我覺得是不會影響到別人，是個人自己的儲蓄，他透過這樣來累積儲蓄，然後提升個人退休所得，我覺得這個應該是沒有所謂逆所得或分配不均的問題。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，下一個就是最後一張，剛剛部長也提到社會保險是增進社會安全，整個是希望穩定，我看到新制勞退基金的規模大概3兆，私校的退撫金是741億，比起來規模實在是差異太大，一個是大戶，一個是散戶，而且新制的投資效益，2021年的數字是9.66，私校退撫基金的投資，大概穩健型的有到8.52，我們沒有比較差。"],["許部長銘春：絕對沒有。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以也呼應部長剛剛講的，因為社會保險是社會安全的延續……"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["吳委員玉琴：也希望退休後能夠有好的經濟安全。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["吳委員玉琴：如果真的要做投資，那可能就去洽商業保險的部分。我想這個部分，如果有能力來處理就是回到商業性的，而這邊就是讓我們確保每個勞工退休的時候他有一筆基金，可以讓他有經濟安全的一個保障。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以我想這個概念也是跟您做討論，我相信就開放的討論，我們就一起針對自提自選的部分來做這樣的討論，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["吳委員玉琴：謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝吳委員。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請蘇巧慧委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.443468750000001,"end":9.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.26159375,"end":10.172843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.982218750000001,"end":82.36409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.05659375,"end":25.410968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.85346875,"end":28.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.67596875,"end":57.945968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.38096875000001,"end":116.08034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.24846875,"end":93.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.88846875,"end":102.14159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.31659375000001,"end":119.86034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.67034375,"end":121.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.63221875,"end":130.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.93596875,"end":123.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.10846875000001,"end":127.87596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.85471875000002,"end":129.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.23409375,"end":178.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.77534375000002,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.03971875000002,"end":160.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.05784375000002,"end":242.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.88034375,"end":181.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.84096875,"end":190.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.07909375000003,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.77346875,"end":244.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.17409375000003,"end":245.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.19096875000002,"end":245.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.25846875000002,"end":245.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.51159375,"end":277.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.17721875,"end":252.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.92346875,"end":257.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.07409375000003,"end":265.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.84596875,"end":266.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.77659375,"end":282.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.41721875,"end":284.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.59846875,"end":285.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.81346875,"end":289.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.87221875,"end":287.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.31471875,"end":294.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.83721875000003,"end":297.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.16159375,"end":301.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.53659375,"end":304.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.86096875000004,"end":305.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.61596875000004,"end":347.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.60909375,"end":326.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.45659375,"end":328.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.89909375,"end":331.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.30159375,"end":349.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.35221875,"end":349.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.83284375,"end":352.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.36409375,"end":365.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.08096875,"end":356.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.75159375000004,"end":357.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.05034375,"end":362.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.84346875,"end":363.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.52659375,"end":392.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.67846875000004,"end":368.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.55221875,"end":390.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.49284375,"end":392.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.76284375,"end":394.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.90596875,"end":400.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.17159375,"end":398.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.27659375,"end":400.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.42409375000005,"end":400.45784375000005},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自選回歸市場機制 自選回歸市場機制"},{"start":334.551,"end":336.353,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":352.466,"end":355.428,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":376.98,"end":384.029,"text":"二、委員勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條"},{"start":395.043,"end":395.603,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具"},{"start":411.514,"end":424.039,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文"},{"start":441.696,"end":444.821,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":457.859,"end":468.063,"text":"投資的商品是那個標的是如何我們熟悉嗎或是我們能理解這些商品的優劣嗎這個是下一個都是下一個問題但是我在上次10月25號也跟部長討論過有關這個所謂目前的自體的狀況當然自體的數量大概是11.5"},{"start":476.667,"end":487.209,"text":"第五十二條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條及第五十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條條文修正草案�"},{"start":505.433,"end":509.295,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":521.242,"end":523.244,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":542.185,"end":543.626,"text":"議員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":563.839,"end":567.141,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":590.616,"end":610.073,"text":"我看到新智勞退基金的規模大概三兆那失效的一個退補金是741億這比起來其實是規模差異太大一個是大戶一個是散戶那所以基本上這個投資而且我們的新智的投資的基金效益"},{"start":610.653,"end":634.798,"text":"收益也2021年的數字是9.66那私下退撫基金的一個投資大概穩健型的大概也有到8.52我們沒有比較差所以剛剛也會呼應部長剛剛講的因為這社會保險是一個社會安全的延續也是希望退休後能夠有好的這個經濟安全"},{"start":636.098,"end":636.758,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具"}]}},{"id":"15352","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15352","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6855f8a018c8dfe1c04445fc32f41448fc046d53a332764a5355a570682bb80c3515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-13","start_time":"2023-12-13T08:30:16+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:45:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":11684,"委員發言時間":"08:30:16 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«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":2744.361,"end":2746.543,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":2760.817,"end":2773.341,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文"},{"start":2790.953,"end":2793.156,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":2807.177,"end":2817.361,"text":"投資的商品是那個標的是如何我們熟悉嗎或是我們能理解這些商品的優劣嗎這個是下一個都是下一個問題但是我在上次10月25號也跟部長討論過有關這個所謂目前的自體的狀況當然自體的數量大概是11.5"},{"start":2825.964,"end":2836.647,"text":"第五十二條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條條文修正草案：立"},{"start":2854.733,"end":2858.239,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案．勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案。"},{"start":2870.137,"end":2872.118,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":2891.802,"end":2921.065,"text":"議員,您的想法?委員,因為這個自選的部分,自體的部分,自體的退休金,它是屬於個人的專戶,就提到個人專戶,其實它就是一個累積儲蓄的性質,所以不會影響到別人,我覺得是不會影響到別人,它是各自的一個儲蓄,所以我覺得它當然透過這樣來累積它的儲蓄,然後提升個人退休所得,"},{"start":2921.525,"end":2946.332,"text":"我覺得這個應該是沒有沒有太沒有影響到其他比較低所得人的問題好來那下一個就是最後一張我想剛剛部長也提到社會保險是增進社會安全那整個是希望穩定那所以像我們我看到新治勞退基金的規模大概三兆那失效的一個退補金是741億"},{"start":2949.453,"end":2972.171,"text":"這比起來其實是規模差一太大,一個是大戶一個是散戶,那所以基本上這個投資,而且我們的新制的投資的基金效益,收益也2021年的數字是9.66那私校退輔基金的一個投資大概穩健型的大概也有到8.52,那我們沒有比較差"},{"start":2972.731,"end":2978.394,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條及第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條之一"},{"start":3000.359,"end":3005.601,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一 其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":3031.062,"end":3053.291,"text":"處委員好部長好部長我們今天要討論這個勞工退休金條例的這個部分那其實大家確實坊間現在有非常多的聲音嘛就是到底怎麼樣可以對個人的退休生活保障最多所以剛剛吳育琴委員也在在的提到了自提自選這是一個很大的題目就覺得我有能力而且我有意願那我能不能夠有更多更好更多元的選擇這是一種嘛"},{"start":3054.992,"end":3067.719,"text":"第二十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。netesa,您的聲音是一種之後那其實在立法院當中民眾黨的黨團那今年九月也提案他就說要提高直接要提高勞退的雇主強制提撥率從6%現行的6%直接到9%"},{"start":3072.001,"end":3077.807,"text":"民眾黨主席柯文哲卻在政見發表會是說他不會強迫提高而是要提供企業的租稅優惠"},{"start":3095.604,"end":3121.206,"text":"企業租稅優惠。」對,那在這樣的狀況下我是想請教部長啦雖然我有看過你們用新聞稿的方式對這個提議做了一些看法但你會不會在備詢台上你再告訴我們你針對現在有立法院有不同的黨團提出了不同的聲音在這樣的狀況第一個是提高強制提撥率那第二個是"},{"start":3121.866,"end":3149.822,"text":"不見得要用強迫的方式而是用企業稅率優惠的方式。那你怎麼看?其實包委我想每一個黨頭每個委員所提案都是站在希望大家都是討論嘛對但是勞動部總是有看法我們是認為目前的階段可能還是比較適宜說我們用鼓勵鼓勵勞僱雙方其實那是最低吧"},{"start":3150.282,"end":3160.205,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條"},{"start":3179.79,"end":3183.454,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3203.593,"end":3216.479,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第"},{"start":3232.087,"end":3239.856,"text":"認為不能就是說一下子就講一個數字啦,這個必須大家去做一些討論之後才能夠...這個我想對我們的"},{"start":3255.643,"end":3270.637,"text":"提一趴增加的那個僱主的負擔是31.7億一年一個月一個月吧應該是一個月吧你只要提高一趴對僱主的那個"},{"start":3271.698,"end":3296.161,"text":"我看到你們的回應嘛勞動部是表示說以今年六月底勞退薪至平均提繳工資四萬三千九百二十二元僱主是七百四十點四萬的這個勞工提繳勞退金計算的話如果提高了一個百分點僱主一年薪增加是三百九十億元的法定負擔一個月三十一啦三十一點七一年是三百九十億"},{"start":3296.761,"end":3297.902,"text":"三、委員劉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3317.944,"end":3321.065,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議"},{"start":3346.974,"end":3359.223,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條條條文修正草案�"},{"start":3371.792,"end":3374.133,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案．勞工退休金條例第三十四條及第五十八條條文修正草案．"},{"start":3387.561,"end":3401.006,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第"},{"start":3409.449,"end":3425.956,"text":"既然我們鼓勵這些橋外生尤其是新南向政策當中的學生來到了臺灣就學而且看起來是有成效的現在人數都是達到數千人現在的話我看馬來西亞今年的話有5253人那印尼的話有2675人越南也有到2331人其實是非常非常的高額"},{"start":3433.899,"end":3436.28,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3459.705,"end":3486.15,"text":"你這邊有一個工作評點許可名額啊不是嗎大家現在就是在討論這個因為我們現在這個工作評點許可名額的話是從一百零九年的兩千五百名一百一十年四千五百名再到一一一一二年現在是六千名啊那我現在跟你討論的就是這個部分因為我沒有關係我們可以再討論啦也許我的資料齁跟您調的不夠精確那我就希望你給我更好的資料"},{"start":3486.65,"end":3493.527,"text":"我這邊收到的資料是這樣子就是我們也是問了很多橋外生等一下布朗你可以回答沒有關係就是"},{"start":3494.91,"end":3518.153,"text":"喬外森其實是來臺就學越來越多越來越多的喬外森也覺得臺灣很好他甚至想留下來工作但在申請工作的過程當中有一個名額的限制那現在的名額現在開放到六千了好可是如果你既然是歡迎他們來的話你何必要有這個限制呢這個名額我先跟你討論就這一點這個謝謝委員齁我先說明一下那個六千的名額齁"},{"start":3519.394,"end":3520.174,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3542.248,"end":3543.85,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3559.528,"end":3562.009,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案："},{"start":3586.638,"end":3589.101,"text":"最後因為佔人家的時間我只要講一個就好了我們喬外森在鼓勵喬外森來的這個網站是有一站式的網站然後是多語式的可是我們這個當喬外森要留下來能夠找工作創業這就屬於勞動部了啦"},{"start":3602.819,"end":3603.319,"text":"二、委員勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3630.894,"end":3631.754,"text":"謝衣鳯等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":3656.397,"end":3683.031,"text":"今天我們在審查勞工退休金的條例這個議題之前想就移工的一個政策的部分等一下等一下等一下我的時間暫停好謝謝要針對的就是移工的一個政策如何更友善來跟部長做一個那個討論因為我們知道缺工時代的一個"},{"start":3685.228,"end":3709.995,"text":"來臨不只臺灣缺工其實在我們鄰近的國家全世界都面臨到相同的一個問題那我們相信就是勞動部對缺工的議題我們已經檢討了很多次了包括開放農業的那個移工還是那個理數業的一個移工甚至就是在上個月就是我們印度的NOU的一個簽署的一個狀況那我們知道那個是一個假信息"},{"start":3710.655,"end":3724.705,"text":"但是友善的這個移工的一個聘僱流程怎麼樣才可以讓就是勞僱主都達到雙贏的一個狀態這個是我們非常關心的那在這個不久的一個那個遊行裡頭"},{"start":3726.006,"end":3728.349,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":3750.083,"end":3778.088,"text":"全臺灣的就業輔導中心裡頭唯一的服務就是每一週固定的通知你要去簽名不然你就沒有辦法繼續再那個拿到這個聘僱函那所以這個移工團體他走上街了他就是有一個五大的一個訴求他就講說是不是政府跟政府直接的一個聘僱然後就福站的一個酸乙仁眼的一個增加還是職聘中心整合各機關文件"},{"start":3779.828,"end":3782.631,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3802.788,"end":3805.974,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3813.939,"end":3839.027,"text":"瓜委員其實有些比如說流程簡化或是他們希望提供更多的多元的協助這個其實我們都會來精進但是我也必須說你說其實我們現在的職聘中心其實他是也提供很多多元服務還有這個便捷的申辦程序給使用我們職聘中心的那當然不是每個"},{"start":3840.233,"end":3842.293,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3868.523,"end":3882.342,"text":"全國目前就是一個因為他就是一個行政協助啦因為基本上現在我們的僱主他聘僱移工他本來就是多元他可以委託仲介他也可以來執聘是多元化的嘛那是不是就是針對他們講的"},{"start":3883.624,"end":3883.944,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具"},{"start":3900.917,"end":3904.318,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3918.304,"end":3941.366,"text":"但是有不足的部分我們都會盡量來把它做好。那我在針對的製造業的一個僱主的一個聘僱的制度的一個檢查我特別就是說把這個制度的一個討論拉出來那現在全台的移工有大概接近75萬了甚至還是更超過了到目前是有多少人?"},{"start":3943.777,"end":3947.438,"text":"三、委員吳美芬等21人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3973.225,"end":3975.866,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3994.315,"end":4016.051,"text":"你們從六個月把它縮短成三個月移工名額你們要增加這個移工的名額來做一個就是等於是鼓勵那有沒有機會這個三個月其實還是太長了你要知道就是說很多製造業他們甚至他們的工廠其實他們的生產線一刻都不能停有沒有機會就是這三個月變為一個月呢"},{"start":4017.712,"end":4031.128,"text":"跟委員報告齁,因為當初這個因為涉及救危服務法的修法齁,那原來是六個月,那後來就是因為基於這個缺口下我們縮短了三個月。這個會持續檢討啦齁,但是就是說這個三個月的空中期其實我們還是在協助。還是在協助。"},{"start":4033.05,"end":4034.811,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":4057.222,"end":4066.87,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案："},{"start":4082.543,"end":4109.552,"text":"就像剛才部長你特別提到了就是說其實我們每個月就是已經雇主自己提撥6%了然後我們自己本身勞工也提撥了6%那我們其實政府的美意非常好我們希望就是說勞工在他的一個老年的一個退休裡頭是得到了一個很好的一個保障可是相對的就是說我們看到了很多很多的一個資料裡頭"},{"start":4110.572,"end":4134.726,"text":"其實我不得不佩服我們勞動部我們這個基金我們應該請我們的局長上來報告一下你對你自己這樣的一個投資那你滿不滿意你還可以保障我們的勞工有四點幾趴的一個收益你算很厲害謝謝委員我們持續努力我們也會持續精進這樣"},{"start":4136.195,"end":4158.326,"text":"那你手上有多少的這樣子的一個就是在這個市場的一個分析分析人員啊這樣的一個配置我們人員相當有限啊那我們國內外都有配置相關的研究人員同時因為我們人員有限我們也希望藉助國內還有國外的很好的資產管理公司來提供協助"},{"start":4159.301,"end":4181.233,"text":"所以你們還是有這個是在後端喔我現在是講說前端前端就是說你們怎麼樣去慎選就是說那個委託我們的這個投資公司來幫我們就是操盤我想知道這個怎樣的一個程序你怎麼有辦法這樣省準的就是說可以給勞工4%以上的一個收益呢"},{"start":4184.98,"end":4209.553,"text":"有關國內外的受託機構的評選我們有一定的程序然後我們也會借重國內的專家學者來參加我們的評選那投資的政策部分我們一直秉持就是穩健的原則來進行那我們希望可以讓勞工有比較中長期的穩健收益所以我們也不會說只看短我們會看整個趨勢這樣"},{"start":4210.674,"end":4225.848,"text":"好,看整個趨勢,部長在這裡我再請教就是說當然你一定有信心就是幫勞工爭取到超過4%的一個獲利啦那有沒有更好的誘因可以讓更多的勞工願意自體呢?有機會嗎?其實這個自體風險是很高的"},{"start":4229.827,"end":4230.907,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":4253.916,"end":4255.436,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4277.543,"end":4278.323,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":4303.45,"end":4305.853,"text":"自體由勞動部來投資。謝謝主席,謝謝。謝謝主席,請勞動部許部長。有請部長。"},{"start":4333.069,"end":4357.117,"text":"三、委員好。好,部長早。今日有媒體對那個退休率當作議題撰寫系列的報導。由於現在醫療進步、科技發達,人人都是可以成為百歲人的候選人。為預備將來的長壽生活、健康財務、社會連結這些都缺一不可。根據遠見雜誌的調查,國人退休之後的養老資金"},{"start":4361.258,"end":4381.952,"text":"主要來自於退休年金制度有63.3% 其次為儲蓄或定存56.3%基金股票等投資是50.7%逐漸國人的退休準備高度仰賴政府退休年金的制度"},{"start":4382.893,"end":4395.685,"text":"然而我們根據勞動部的統計勞退新制實施了18年全台740萬的勞工預計今年勞退自體率只有14.69%只有"},{"start":4399.167,"end":4413.672,"text":"十四點六九不到15%表示仍然有多達六百萬的勞工85%的勞工不願意自提請問部長那勞動部是否有進一步了解勞工自提意願低落的原因是什麼原因"},{"start":4414.752,"end":4437.748,"text":"報告人其實因為既然這個叫自提啦就是說他自願提交就是說要尊重他的意願啦那每個人他為什麼沒有來自提可能第一個他是不是經濟的負擔比較低薪那薪水拿出來通朋友有些人是他可能是自己就去找商業保險或者到市場上去做"},{"start":4438.589,"end":4439.23,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":4448.43,"end":4451.131,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":4475.936,"end":4480.897,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十三條之一"},{"start":4498.423,"end":4502.007,"text":"勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4516.34,"end":4519.283,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":4539.56,"end":4554.736,"text":"這遠低於國人平均總薪資五萬七嘛我們不是說六成嗎六成就要三萬四那我們只有兩萬五所以少了一萬塊那通過膨脹投資市場波動這個影響納入呢增加國人退休後的財務風險"},{"start":4556.918,"end":4582.892,"text":"對此,勞動部近來就有表示啊,正在收集各方的意見,兼顧企業經營之下,企業經營就是這個我們怎樣的去一些的撥補。朝向勞工退休保障有更好的研議制度,那再問部長,那目前有哪些調整方向呢?兩萬五嘛,現在收入都不到兩萬五,就退休後,可是我們大概需要是三萬四,差了差不多一萬塊。"},{"start":4585.95,"end":4600.677,"text":"對,二、委員我們現在其實算一算有啊,對啊,我們現在平均二、二、二年的平均我們其實勞保還要再加勞退喔對啊,我們算一算,對,報告委員我跟你說我們的所得替代勞退六千五嘛"},{"start":4602.065,"end":4624.157,"text":"因為很多人不提撥,剛剛講85人不提撥,所以他以提撥零來算啦85%不提撥,當然有提撥是不止啦自體是另外一回事,我們有固體固體6%是一定要提的喔所以我們的退休基本上是勞保加勞退自體可以零啊,可以6加6但是員工可以零啊,85%是零欸"},{"start":4631.209,"end":4654.316,"text":"自己提啊!勞工顧主六趴啦我知道我跟你說我們的所得替代率喔如果以平均月頭保薪資目前來講大概三萬七我們所得替代率有百分之六十八我們的退休齁可以領的是三萬四千三百八十六哪裡退休2022年是一萬八加六千五啊一二零二年這個啊加起來勒"},{"start":4660.643,"end":4664.126,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":4688.667,"end":4689.668,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4706.189,"end":4729.746,"text":"報告委我們的重點在這裡啦我們是103才施行勞退啦所以我們到現在還不到十年啦所以勞退的平均月領六千五啦可是你有算三十年不止啦你把三十年再加二十年進去不止你平均月領不止這樣啦那我們現在就有人退休啦那兩萬五還是不夠所以我說比較基礎不能就要看啦"},{"start":4731.347,"end":4742.652,"text":"國外他可能是比較久了但是我們勞退薪資是103才開始所以我們今天會得出一個勞退平均月領6000勞退薪資18年了沒有啦"},{"start":4747.35,"end":4751.973,"text":"勞工退休金條例第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文"},{"start":4776.499,"end":4778.04,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":4796.949,"end":4801.431,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":4815.717,"end":4843.839,"text":"女性治理白皮書的上司公司中28個產業只有三個產業沒有女性領導人在疫情期間穩健成長女性領導人企業整個產業比是毫不遜色可見女力對於經濟影響已經全面擴散我們知道哈佛大學有個教授叫戈丁他認為來了解女性勞動市場是非常charming的是非常重要而且迷人的"},{"start":4845.24,"end":4848.841,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條"},{"start":4866.145,"end":4892.182,"text":"一路成長到這個五成2013年的五成目前是51.5日本韓國是53.5和53.3比我們高差不多2%那新加坡六成四那北歐國家是七成一所以數據上來看我們在30歲以後近一半的女性沒有投入勞動職場請問部長有沒有了解原因啊"},{"start":4893.183,"end":4894.245,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":4905.643,"end":4908.424,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":4931.894,"end":4949.339,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第24會期社會福利及衛"},{"start":4954.48,"end":4957.203,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":4974.161,"end":4975.522,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":4989.921,"end":4997.27,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文"},{"start":5010.965,"end":5027.61,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案："},{"start":5030.211,"end":5032.713,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":5057.133,"end":5058.174,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":5076.222,"end":5100.295,"text":"兩種國家我們不是一樣都一樣的這種東方文化都很像嗎以教育孩子為主所以我覺得我應該要建議勞動部要關心這個托育資源的部件以及協助企業鏈結長照資源來讓我們婦女可以安心去就業你說對嗎所以不是只有你的問題而已不是勞動部還要結合其他部分對好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":5112.754,"end":5126.11,"text":"下一位吳欣英委員謝主席有請勞動部長許部長"},{"start":5132.376,"end":5152.919,"text":"議員好,已經快過一年了,然後也可能是我最後一次跟部長質詢了。那我想請問一下部長,覺得說大家今年討論的年度關鍵字,你有沒有知道這個年度關鍵字是什麼?什麼年度關鍵字?缺了。是的,是。今年的關鍵字是缺。"},{"start":5154.093,"end":5176.465,"text":"不只是五缺加上缺氮缺藥對年輕人來說因為通膨物價成長大家也感覺到缺錢那當然貨物的這個負擔率房屋率的這個比例也創下歷史新高也讓年輕人感覺到缺房那勞保也即將破產那年輕人會更覺得說缺退休金"},{"start":5177.745,"end":5183.713,"text":"那依據調查呢,國人退休率連續三年不及格,其中是未滿30到39歲的右偏低,只有52分。"},{"start":5189.966,"end":5211.452,"text":"那國人雖然年紀增大,越來越接近退休的年齡,才剛開始準備退休金,這時候已經晚了十到二十年了。所以呢,我本席認為說政府應該鼓勵國人立即更早的準備退休金,透過時間以及複利的效果,退休金不是一比一的增加,而是倍數的增加。"},{"start":5212.552,"end":5233.838,"text":"今天想跟部長分享本席辦公室的視算,這個福利的威力。比如說,如果勞工25歲的時候開始提6%,每年只有3萬塊的薪水,而且假設是說他到60歲的時候,他的薪水完全都不成長的前提之下,"},{"start":5234.878,"end":5246.287,"text":"此等於說勞工每個月只要花一千八百元退休之後每個月就可以領多於這個六千五百元那一塊錢就等於變成三點六塊錢"},{"start":5249.434,"end":5275.757,"text":"可是很可惜的就是勞退薪資這18年來呢自提的比例只有14%每年成長率不到1%那勞動部的擬定未來的三年自提目標呢其實未來是每年成長大概1.5%可是實際上等於說這代表說在2025的時候呢總額才是在17.7%那本席認為其實這還是太慢了那如果每年是"},{"start":5276.357,"end":5280.14,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條之一"},{"start":5294.833,"end":5315.585,"text":"二十五年到百分之十七點七的話還是相當的慢。那因為就是說一般民眾的這個所謂的financial literacy就是財經的一些理財的知識是不足的。所以我也需要說部長從政策這個部分能多於關心。那我是覺得說要提高字體比率呢必須要對症下藥。"},{"start":5316.946,"end":5338.675,"text":"而本席的辦公室也整理了勞動部的資料做出以下的這個圖表那觀察到兩個事件就是首先像剛所提到的自體比率目前為止達高六百萬的勞工沒有自體那第二就是說這個低薪的困境薪資越高自體反而越多"},{"start":5340.836,"end":5360.544,"text":"所以如果以低薪的問題來思考的話沒有辦法短期解決可是就要給勞工更大的誘因才能提升自體比率那本期建議勞動部可以參考這個農退條例勞工為自體退休金政府應該給予更多的獎勵"},{"start":5362.948,"end":5382.961,"text":"農退儲蓄金2021年開辦農民自體搭配政府相對的Matching提撥的獎勵這已經實施了兩年了自體比率就快速提升到了27%接下來想有請主計處上台然後請許部長留步好嗎主計處"},{"start":5395.704,"end":5396.825,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":5420.265,"end":5425.189,"text":"立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案："},{"start":5449.256,"end":5462.969,"text":"相對勞保撥補的高達2570億元的話政府應該可以負擔的而且就是勞退補助直接進入勞工的戶頭這跟勞保的撥補大水庫是不一樣的我想請問說主計處對這個態度如何?"},{"start":5472,"end":5497.819,"text":"基本上因為這個會增加我們國家整體的財政負擔所以應該還是要就整個政府的整體的財政來一起一併做考量可能是沒有辦法就勞工這部分單獨這樣去處理以上就可能沒有辦法單就這個部分去處理因為還是要就我們整個政府的財政來做考量而且這可能會有財政紀律法的問題所以還在考慮當中就是了"},{"start":5498.592,"end":5513.517,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第24會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第"},{"start":5516.458,"end":5535.306,"text":"補助五千元等於二點五倍獎金。本席相信如果勞動部願意把這些數字呈現出來對年輕人來說是一定很有感的。另外勞動部也可以思考僱主提撥超過6%給予企業的稅優。我今天只是希望能拋磚引玉"},{"start":5536.426,"end":5558.755,"text":"然後以整體的政策的配套希望勞動部也可以全盤考量那能提出民眾真正有感的政策那我們全民的這個退休金能提升謝謝您好謝謝委員的提議這個就是要增加自體那個具體的方法那我們未來跟相關部會因為這牽涉到財政相關部會一起來討論謝謝您謝謝吳委員下一位"},{"start":5566.43,"end":5590.237,"text":"陳寅,委員。謝謝主席,麻煩請這個發展署蔡署長。"},{"start":5595.168,"end":5616.302,"text":"有請署長。委員好。署長好。據悉我國即將與印度簽署MOU引進的印度籍勞工。本席並不反對這樣的政策,不過要透過今天的質詢跟勞動部做一些提醒。"},{"start":5618.19,"end":5629.418,"text":"首先我想請教一下印度籍勞工跟目前已經引進的東南亞國家的勞工在生活的習慣上還有管理上會不會有很大的差異?"},{"start":5631.209,"end":5659.024,"text":"跟委員報告因為印度其實在目前很多國家都有引進那東南亞大概目前據我們所知像新加坡他就有很多那其實印度大概基本上大部分跟一般的其他國家移工當然會有一些語言的問題跟這個宗教習慣的問題那各個國家其實對於這個移工他在本身的一些生活適應的條例都必須要做好一些準備那這基本上在我們在整個評估的過程當中都會去想加注意"},{"start":5659.482,"end":5685.553,"text":"好,因為剛剛你提到語言齁畢竟他們光是這個方言就447種嘛那這個官方承認就22種所以是相當這個在這個語言上是非常的多元化齁那將來這些這個印度籍的勞工主要我另外再請教就是說那他們未來主要是補充什麼樣的這個產業缺工的問題好,謝謝委員你可能要講大聲一點對準麥克風"},{"start":5688.755,"end":5703.132,"text":"跟委員報告齁那個在目前印度未來在哪些產業有這些需求其實目前我們在後續在工作小組會議當中跟各部會其實會做一些討論齁在缺口在哪裡所以你們現在是還不知道"},{"start":5704.433,"end":5725.173,"text":"現在基本上到底未來在哪些開放行業需要由印度的移工來補充這個還要做一些討論那基本上我們在目前第一階段只是就來原國的這個部分做一個評估所以就還沒有還不知道哪些產業缺工要補充哪些產業就先先直接先就是"},{"start":5726.88,"end":5754.999,"text":"對,所以公文報告因為目前我們在整個的過去以往我們在開放的過程當中第一個就是說跟南韓國之間要先有一個合作的意向這個是第一步因為根據媒體的報導可能開放的這個行業啦其實也就是我們常見缺工的行業就是像農業啦製造業還有營造業那由於說這些行業的這些外籍的勞工呢大部分都是居住在"},{"start":5756.08,"end":5763.725,"text":"場區以外的社區。」那針對這個印度籍勞工的生活管理我想了解一下發展署有什麼樣的規劃跟準備"},{"start":5765.273,"end":5785.16,"text":"我們目前在整個印度的移工開放第一個就是說從他的來源跟他勞工素質尤其就是說一些不能影響我們治安這個部分我們會特別注意那在國內目前在整個移工管理上其實都會有一些相關的規範這個目前我們大概都會在後續的一個工作會議當中都會做一些相關的規劃"},{"start":5786.898,"end":5814.252,"text":"所以聽起來好像就是對於他們大部分要居住在場區以外的這些社區在住的方面你們還沒有很具體的一個規劃跟準備?其實大部分就我們的了解以目前國內的運用其實大部分其實雇主都會做一些妥善的安排所以這個部分就是交給雇主去處理目前他會做一些規劃那要依照我們的規定來辦理"},{"start":5815.23,"end":5829.764,"text":"所以你們只是規定,然後規劃留給這個僱主他們自己去處理?我們後續其實也會協助。因為我今天其實你不用緊張,我只是提出一些提醒。"},{"start":5831.045,"end":5854.518,"text":"如果只是規定,然後你們沒有及早做一些規劃準備,我是良心的建議你們還是多思考一些,也幫雇主多思考一些,會減少到時候可能會面對的問題。好不好?那再來就是說印度它是一個非常多元文化,然後在這個種族還有甚至在階級嚴格的,就是說甚至階級都嚴格差異的一個國家。"},{"start":5857.981,"end":5860.704,"text":"文字與語言對國內而言是比較陌生的國度。在發展署你們有沒有儲備這方面的人才?"},{"start":5870.682,"end":5898.761,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前因為印度確實非常大他的語言真的非常那英文只是其中之一啦齁那目前如果以目前外交部給我們的建議其實後續大概會有一些來源地區會有一些選擇齁那尤其語言這個部分你會優先考量那至於說如果其他語言像印度語這部分也跟委員報告這個我們現在也後續必須要做一些相關的跟學校跟一些相關的一些翻譯的一個資源來做一些合作"},{"start":5900.486,"end":5924.303,"text":"當然每個人第一個想到的會是語言那可能就是翻譯的部分那我想再提醒就是說因為可能在宗教還有生活語言習慣上的這個不同那也不是我們非常熟悉或者其他這個來源國很熟悉的這個地方那所以就是說有關於這個輔導心理諮商"},{"start":5926.625,"end":5927.546,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案案案案"},{"start":5945.176,"end":5958.512,"text":"一旦進到台灣,那是不是也要接受一定時數的職前教育訓練?那特別是這個職業安全衛生的教育訓練。我不知道你們有沒有已經跟這個職安署協調討論相關的教育訓練課程?"},{"start":5960.915,"end":5984.758,"text":"對跟委員其實現在我們跟治安署其實在移工不管是來台前或來台後其實治安會這個部分會列入一個重點那未來印度移工也會拿入整體來做一些所以不會只是看務工需要而已都需要整理過好因為我有看到那個我們治安署署長有點頭好那再來我請那個勞保局嘿"},{"start":5989.351,"end":6008.85,"text":"我接下來想就是再提醒一下這個勞保局就是你們投保對象的這個姓名藍衛是不是有適用印度籍的這個勞工因為字源的長度會不會太短以至於說無法登錄聽說這個最長的曾經已經長到有600多字"},{"start":6009.531,"end":6028.693,"text":"所以一般而言在這個印度的這個制度下有一些人的姓名真的很長那如果我們事先就沒有做好這個準備跟因應到時候會不會造成這個電腦資料庫當機那個非常謝謝委員提醒那日後如果說相關移工的引進我們特別來留意"},{"start":6029.056,"end":6030.338,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":6044.657,"end":6061.535,"text":"指示提醒勞動部還有各個所屬的機關一定要好好來規劃跟準備。既然行政院已經合訂要與印度簽署勞務合作協定的內容,預定在年底前要完成簽署,"},{"start":6062.176,"end":6074.908,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文"},{"start":6088.52,"end":6089.722,"text":"三、委員徐志榮徐樂園等16人擬具"},{"start":6119.262,"end":6141.356,"text":"謝主席,拜託許部長。有請部長。學員好。謝謝委員的支持。"},{"start":6151.735,"end":6174.27,"text":"我們今天主要講這個勞退條例我們主要是說勞工朋友他退休以後勞保跟勞退應該就是他最主要的經濟來源剛剛也聽了所有的所得替代力等等照我們現在有的制度來講"},{"start":6176.65,"end":6201.961,"text":"你就算是領最低工資的,最低工資的應該有三十幾趴吧?應該至少應該有。應該有三百多萬人嘛。就是領最低工資的當勞工當了三十年、三十五年這樣下來。領最低工資大概二十幾趴,我們現在有兩百多萬人。那也還算蠻多的啦。大概占五分之一。"},{"start":6202.762,"end":6217.742,"text":"這樣他們的守得替代率等等這樣算起來夠他們生活嗎?夠他們安心的生活嗎?就是領基本工資的人。他也有可能一直做到退休都還是在領基本工資喔。"},{"start":6219.452,"end":6222.155,"text":"兩萬七八應該還滿滿符符啦我現在的印象是兩萬五的話就有差不多"},{"start":6239.673,"end":6243.936,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":6268.354,"end":6287.469,"text":"如果不撥補到這邊我不是反對不撥補到這邊譬如說明年的一千億還可以到其他各部會還有很多地方要用的嘛我的意思就是說好像一直用公務預算撥補的話好像不是真正的解決這個"},{"start":6290.174,"end":6290.875,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":6316.418,"end":6317.999,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":6343.496,"end":6370.472,"text":"那是不是說如果沒有這個公務預算的撥補我們假設啦沒有公務預算的撥補有沒有什麼其他的方法來可以對這個勞保年金不要這麼快的?對,跟委員報告齁其實目前啦齁大概所有不管是學者專家或各政黨或是政府所研議的齁就是說在討論當中的方案齁"},{"start":6371.707,"end":6391.256,"text":"最簡單最簡單就是撥補一定要有因為我們現在因為我們第一個我們的費率其實最高就到12%第二個我們年資給付率是1.55那這個收支逆差就從106年就開始了發生所以政府撥補這件事情是一定各個版本都一定要有"},{"start":6391.596,"end":6407.984,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生�"},{"start":6416.728,"end":6426.7,"text":"一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":6432.719,"end":6435.501,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":6463.962,"end":6466.124,"text":"三、委員延後退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":6478.711,"end":6499.664,"text":"嚴議延長,不是兵役的役,是嚴討看能不能延長。總歸就是說,我是覺得說一直用公務預算,雖然是必須要的,但是越來越多,你看從兩百億、三百億、幾百億,好像數字越來越大了。"},{"start":6501.164,"end":6524.449,"text":"所以這個反正就是開研節流嘛節流可能就是延後退的一種節流方式開研可能就我剛剛講的這個提高勞參力提高勞參力當然比較主要的就是婦女朋友的這個變形工時大概講在這邊參考因為有一些勞工朋友跟我提過這個譬如說委託"},{"start":6527.116,"end":6541.252,"text":"我們勞保基金也是有委託代操嘛之前有一些他是想說他自提的部分可不可以他自己他自己去委託民間的一些那個"},{"start":6543.725,"end":6567.803,"text":"帶草單位甚至於政府提撥的6%跟他自己提撥的6%是不是可以一起一起去委託他他可能認為說他委託的他的獲益比較大但是我知道我們政府會擔心說把他自己退休金的老本不要委託到那個私人的那個部分去以後"},{"start":6568.824,"end":6570.605,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":6590.177,"end":6606.85,"text":"所以說就算他提撥的6%跟政府的6%一起給他抄抄到沒有都算零的話他一個月他領幾十萬十幾萬薪水的人他的生活也安全無疑啦所以是不是我們也可以考慮說"},{"start":6609.542,"end":6636.516,"text":"甚至於政府提撥的六八還在勞動部這邊抄他自己提撥的六八他搞不好一個月領薪水二三十萬他提撥六八去這樣代抄的話可能也是一種相當的金額當然他認為說他自己委外的話會議比部裡面抄的多他自己盈虧他自己負責所以這方面是否也可以考慮"},{"start":6638.306,"end":6643.815,"text":"反正他自己去決定嘛。他自己決定他要的話你就自己負責嘛。"},{"start":6646.81,"end":6670.488,"text":"謝謝委員的剛剛的意見我想這個部分我們都會去多聽聽大家的看法那的確就是說如果當然在部裡面是有保障對 那就是說我們會考慮到說畢竟不是所有自選的勞工自體的勞工他可能都是那麼高薪所以有時候他的自體的部分他才是希望有保障"},{"start":6671.289,"end":6691.481,"text":"所以如果說當然你說他自選之後他自擔風險我們都會擔心說像去年那種金融整個金融市場跌了兩三成勞工都很擔心所以我們會多種考量我的意思是說會去提撥給民間操作的人他領的薪水一定是很多的萬一那邊泡湯掉他領的薪水應該都還沒問題"},{"start":6695.203,"end":6713.717,"text":"而其實像這些高薪的他其實也可以回到市場機制去選擇商品也是一個方式那也是一種自選就他其實不一定要進到這個自體裡面來他也可以把自己本來要自體的他其實就可以去購買商品就是金融市場上的商業"},{"start":6714.94,"end":6716.542,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":6743.08,"end":6744.921,"text":"陳佳華陳委員歡迎好謝謝主席請部長有請部長陳委員好部長好部長目前我們看到三位總統候選人在談論到勞退新制的問題都是僅說會鼓勵雇主和勞工提撥卻迴避強制提高雇主提撥勞退的修法"},{"start":6772.349,"end":6796.879,"text":"那這樣看起來他們一直應該是沒有想要去解決我們勞工生活而且是退休的生活尤其我們現在看到整個物價上漲的這麼多所以請問勞動部我們從舊制到新制18年過去了時空背景也不同了"},{"start":6797.718,"end":6814.108,"text":"所以針對提高僱主提撥勞退的比例是否應盡速研議提高?那我們要問目前全國勞工可期待預計提高會幾%?那預計什麼時候可以來推行修法?"},{"start":6815.542,"end":6827.938,"text":"報告委員,這個議題我們知道勞工非常關心但是因為這個部分這個強制提撥的部分就是會牽涉到僱主的負擔所以這個部分我們會參考"},{"start":6831.403,"end":6843.593,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":6856.603,"end":6877.733,"text":"會增加雇主負擔﹖我們是認為說可能要再經過討論﹖可是這個就是一直存在的問題嘛 對不對也是一直困難的問題但是18年過去了本席是認為我們勞動部有責任要來做檢討然後提出來照顧勞工的做法尤其物價上漲這麼的多 是嗎"},{"start":6880.506,"end":6888.194,"text":"報告委員因為這個是牽涉到退休的生活當然我們願意來傾聽勞工的意見也願意說"},{"start":6891.867,"end":6914.807,"text":"正對大家的期待﹖好,那要積極去研議嘛,那你認為什麼時候要來修法呢?大概我是認為這個部分還要經過討論之後,跟各界,請聽各界事情,然後跟勞工雙方大家共同討論之後。那你認為我們總統候選人都沒有具體的去提出他們要做的方法,那勞動部是不是樂得輕鬆呢?"},{"start":6916.516,"end":6918.04,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":6926.043,"end":6950.763,"text":"這個也算是一個大議題我覺得大家還是必須去面對但是要去審慎的研議我們沒有說這個議題其實我們一直也了解勞工的期待也很高我們知道了解了還會繼續再了解那請問部長我們現在勞工退休金個人帳戶現在我們的政府是代委操作那請問績效現在是怎麼樣"},{"start":6952.91,"end":6954.191,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":6973.6,"end":6998.609,"text":"所以目前沒有要考慮做修改目前我們其實這個議題各界有不同的聲音而且我們也有勞團他是持反對的意見所以我們認為說這個議題我們開放的態度但是請聽各界的聲音說是可以一定比例比如說60%由政府操作其餘可以開放讓勞工自主投資"},{"start":7001.407,"end":7003.77,"text":"我想各種意見我們都會來參考,各種意見來參考。"},{"start":7006.751,"end":7007.692,"text":"李慧琼議員李慧琼議員"},{"start":7036.289,"end":7065.328,"text":"可不可以跟勞保來做診病呢?本席是希望能夠有關心私校這些退府的教職員工那這個部分我們勞動部有沒有可以去"},{"start":7066.141,"end":7068.583,"text":"等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":7096.361,"end":7098.522,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":7117.253,"end":7123.914,"text":"昨天北捷的工程又發生公安事故,那這個監督方面我們現在要怎麼做?」"},{"start":7158.508,"end":7159.188,"text":"有請黃秀芳、黃委員。有請部長。"},{"start":7173.444,"end":7199.662,"text":"阿偉好部長好今天討論這個有關這個勞動退休金的問題我想請教就是說其實我們看到一份報告就是說我們這個人力資源顧問有關在那個評比台灣的這個評比當中排名第39那這個排名第39可能我們從上面看到就是說確實台灣的這個退休金制度是不是存在一些問題"},{"start":7201.063,"end":7202.284,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":7227.467,"end":7236.414,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第15條條條文修正草案：立法院第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委"},{"start":7252.051,"end":7252.411,"text":"兩條條文修正草案案"},{"start":7281.081,"end":7283.762,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":7297.527,"end":7315.289,"text":"大概在百分之六十八並不會低於OECD不過我覺得當然世界各國有好的制度我們都願意來參考第二個就是說那個四萬五千八天花板是不是要打開那這件事情因為會牽涉到我們現在整個"},{"start":7316.973,"end":7322.777,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議"},{"start":7347.294,"end":7364.555,"text":"其實我一直想要講的就是說其實我們的這個勞保的這個投保薪資在105年提高到這個四萬五千八嘛那其實我們的基本薪資其實一直都在往上調那是不是也要相對的這個投保薪資是不是也要再往上"},{"start":7365.656,"end":7391.052,"text":"這是我認為應該是這樣子才合理啊我也認為應該是這樣你看我們的紙災保險災保我就提到七萬兩千八了這個已經cover到大概有八成的勞工九成勞工都可以適用得到但未來我是覺得這一題可能未來就是可能跟年改這件事情要一起討論啊不然我現在我只要單提高一級我就是一千五百億的負擔啊"},{"start":7394.35,"end":7397.371,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員"},{"start":7417,"end":7419.14,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":7444.836,"end":7459.85,"text":"對這個部分我們會尊重大家的意見但是就是說現在的狀況就是說還是有些老船比較擔心的就是說這畢竟是退休老本那你要自擔風險這件事情"},{"start":7461.208,"end":7465.61,"text":"一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":7487.418,"end":7516.044,"text":"其中有很多高齡或中高齡的民眾其實他們也很想在二度就業找的工作可能就是一些比較簡單的工作有的他們也急需一份工作有的確實是因為經濟的壓力急需一份工作可是他們去應徵的時候可能都會碰到可能是年齡的關係或者是時間有時候沒辦法配合"},{"start":7517.484,"end":7533.684,"text":"其他還有長輩需要照顧所以那個時間可能沒辦法配合那我也看到就是說你們有提出一個就是針對這個補助地方政府成立銀髮人才服務據點的這個措施那我看到這個執行率好像也不是那麼好"},{"start":7534.718,"end":7536.919,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":7552.295,"end":7553.856,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":7565.769,"end":7566.769,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具"},{"start":7584.309,"end":7586.972,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":7604.087,"end":7623.516,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第"},{"start":7625.391,"end":7630.797,"text":"第二十四條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條條文修正草案："},{"start":7648.234,"end":7650.495,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會議"},{"start":7674.286,"end":7691.731,"text":"兩年內目前是14處了,那陸陸續續還會增加,那我們其實就會讓績效慢慢的把它能夠提升上來。好,那有這樣的一個據點我希望你們也要多宣傳,因為很多他們不知道可能就也是"},{"start":7692.671,"end":7697.993,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會長青中心等16人擬具"},{"start":7720.122,"end":7728.648,"text":"來奉獻給社會可以工作又來解決勞動力的缺口。謝謝。謝謝。有請王婉玉、王委員。主席有請勞動部許部長。有請部長。"},{"start":7746.463,"end":7765.141,"text":"網路委員好部長你好我們知道過去這個勞退救治的情況之下勞工需要在同一個事業單位累積一定的年資才符合勤領退休金的條件嘛那如果他早上工作被解僱又或者是被迫離職就沒有辦法累積年資又或者是曾經也出現過許多的事業單位惡性倒閉等等造成勞工無法勤領退休金"},{"start":7765.561,"end":7789.176,"text":"所以我們看到這個勞退薪制從2005年上路之後的確來解決了這個部分我想這部分是不可諱言也應該給予肯定的勞退薪制是採用個人的帳戶制之下讓勞工不會因為轉換事業單位而中斷年資可是呢我們也看到在勞退薪制的上路之後大家一直在反映的是我們的勞工團體也一直在訴求的是政府只告訴勞工朋友們勞退薪制可以讓他們更有機會領到退休金"},{"start":7790.777,"end":7810.855,"text":"可是沒有說的是在於這樣子的退休金其實是大打折扣的我們以2021年的勞工的薪資的中位數大約51萬來計算他的年資以及退休金如果是以勞退救資來計算總共加起來大概是191萬元的勞退的這個退休金但是以勞退薪資"},{"start":7811.816,"end":7836.13,"text":"僱主提撥6%的比例來說是只有91萬所以比如說在這樣的情況之下就可以很明顯的是如果我們希望能夠讓他們保障到請領的退休金是一樣的情況之下回推回去僱主的提撥比例應該要是高達12.5%我想這個部長您一定很清楚勞工團體們一直在訴求的是我們希望能夠提高僱主的提撥比例當然我也知道部長一直在講"},{"start":7837.25,"end":7851.195,"text":"這個6%是最低的部分其實可以透過老資協議來做增加但是我們也看到相較之下在今年的2023在今年的7月公務人員的退府薪資上路之後強制提撥15%其中政府的負擔是65%意思就換算過來是"},{"start":7854.356,"end":7875.466,"text":"貴族的提撥率高達9.75%。」我覺得這就是再次的打臉勞工朋友所以我們也看到說的確啊這個6%是最低的部分可以透過勞資協議來做提升不過我們也要跟部長這邊來做一個提醒和回憶就今年七月的時候下一頁今年七月的時候中華電信工會也有發起了要來調高勞退僱主的提撥比例的的遊行"},{"start":7876.226,"end":7878.909,"text":"而實際上研究之後最終中華電信公司也跳票了他表示說提撥比率涉及了政府的修法所以不願意調整"},{"start":7899.048,"end":7927.497,"text":"所以我想跟部長報告的是即便是這6%是最低但是包括連中華電信和中華電信工會是相對來說比較大的工會了來跟雇主做協商都是這樣的情況是完全沒有辦法提升而且公司仍然認為這個6%是政府明定的所以要調整其實是需要政府來做修法更恍惚其他的雇主以及其他的勞工朋友們根本很難達到這樣的比例啦所以我想這個議題部長你一定很清楚當時其實你也曾經有承諾"},{"start":7928.157,"end":7949.19,"text":"而當時在因為總統在參加在六月參加全國工會的會員代表大會的時候也提到這部分會持續的來做溝通所以我們其實有兩個問題想要請部長來做說明第一個是這個6%的比例到底實際上有多少的雇主願意提高超過6%還有這個在高於6%的提撥率的情況之下有多少是透過勞資協議來達成的"},{"start":7952.54,"end":7978.049,"text":"包括委員齁目前那個顧主提繳率超過6%的大概有3,532家的事業單位啦。占比?占比大概百分之0.61啦。是,所以非常少,連百分之一都不到。尤其是剛剛其實中華電信的工會就已經是一個很明顯的例子。即便像他們是工會比較嚴謹比較大一些些,即便是中華電信都不認為這個6%以上是他們應該要來共同討論的。因為他當然他"},{"start":7981.73,"end":7992.619,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":8007.287,"end":8013.772,"text":"如果我們提高一年的話整個的法定成本就是增加大概將近390億"},{"start":8015.694,"end":8040.702,"text":"所以這件事情當然要去公開我想老公朋友今天之所以覺得很不公平的或是覺得很受到委屈的是在於我們新救治比起來真的是差非常的多這個部分是剛剛才提到說像這個公務員員退服薪資上路之後其實算起來也是在9.75%那當然我們很希望能夠台灣慢慢發展成勞資的權利是更加平等地位是更加平等透過勞資協商來做推進可是實務上部長您剛剛的數據其實就很明顯的呈現出來"},{"start":8045.563,"end":8068.718,"text":"不管勞工朋友喊得多大聲,多麼希望透過勞資協定來做處理,可是實際上的發生率不到1%。即便連剛才報告的中華電信這樣子的公司、這樣子的工會都沒有辦法讓他們的僱主能夠願意來承擔,甚至是僱主表示這必須要透過修法,難道我們修法不應該來更加來保障勞工朋友的權益嗎?"},{"start":8069.835,"end":8076.658,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":8091.223,"end":8092.424,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":8110.053,"end":8130.535,"text":"參議院總統其實也曾經承諾過說勞動部會來繼續做努力和溝通我們也想請教一下從六月參議院總統承諾要來做溝通到現在我們做了哪些部分和演繹的方向如何以及什麼時候會有一個比較具體的目標這個部分其實我們這個溝通我說是要真正溝通不是說我嘴巴上溝通而已是"},{"start":8131.229,"end":8143.969,"text":"但說實在這件事情當然不是那麼容易啦因為就是要說服是啊所以我們一定要看到實際上做了哪些事情啊所以從六月到現在進行了哪些規封跟哪些單位做了溝通那我們其實就是"},{"start":8145.649,"end":8149.751,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具〈勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":8172.805,"end":8187.39,"text":"這部分有沒有具體溝通的哪些事情還是就是沒有回答的意思就是沒有溝通?包委我們的溝通方式是多元的啦或許不是正式的一個召開的會議說叫勞資雙方都來就是說在各種場合"},{"start":8188.7,"end":8190.742,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":8213.426,"end":8230.867,"text":"獎勵免稅的機制或是減稅的機制來提高他們的補補的可能性所以我們想請教對於這個方向部長有沒有一個想法或者是如何能夠來支持又或者是不支持這樣的方向因為剛才提到如果法定要提高6%一直說要溝通但是完全提不出具體溝通是什麼那我們希望雇主主動來提高提撥率"},{"start":8232.308,"end":8252.344,"text":"那我們如何來鼓勵僱主來提高?不要再說我們要透過勞資協議了因為部長你的數據已經打臉了你們自己說的透過勞資協議可以來提高,只有不到1%上路了18年不到1%我相信這個勞資協議真的非常困難當然對這些僱主要希望他們能夠來接受說"},{"start":8253.34,"end":8264.305,"text":"提高這個提撥率強制的提撥率那這個部分當然也要有一些誘因那這些誘因就是說可能就是必須大家跨部會來做討論因為這個有時候會牽涉到稅賦的問題這個部分我們"},{"start":8268.687,"end":8271.408,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":8294.915,"end":8311.765,"text":"我想大家希望朝這個目標不是說就把目標放在那邊就會達到而是真的要有進程做了些什麼至少可以告訴大家我覺得大家之所以現在會很生氣的就是在於我們完全看不到路徑更不能相信我們的目標有可能會達到更不相信政府的誠意在哪裡我想"},{"start":8312.525,"end":8335.172,"text":"議員您一定很知道勞工朋友的辛苦,您剛剛數據也很明顯地呈現出來,要靠勞資協議其實是非常非常的困難。即便我們推動倡議了十幾年,到現在仍然不到1%是超過6%的。所以這就是為什麼我們希望能夠看得到,如果不論是強制又或者是鼓勵,我們都要有清楚的路徑,又或者是至少讓我們看到政府願意努力的吧。"},{"start":8337.013,"end":8360.235,"text":"我會擇由業務單位來做一個規劃就是說我們就這個議題的部分我們一個具體的規劃兩個部分都有具體的規劃一個月內給我們方便嗎?就是一個是能不能朝著6%的部分又法規面上來提升第二個是如果我們透過獎勵的部分我們能如何來做處理因為我還是要再次強調勞工朋友們都在講的是6%不夠花老後被打趴"},{"start":8360.615,"end":8383.383,"text":"我想這個部分6%是大家長期以來的訴求希望能夠提升不論是用修法又或者是退而求其是政府用鼓勵的措施來做努力我覺得這應該要具體來做面對不要再講了十幾年說透過勞資協議透過團體協約我們可以做事實上數據就知道這就是完全非常困難的一件事情了不應該把這樣的責任放到勞工朋友自己要去爭取我覺得勞動部"},{"start":8384.923,"end":8398.83,"text":"絕對有責任也必須要承擔起勞工朋友的權益。」希望部長能夠在一個月內把這兩項具體未來會規劃的方式和討論的方式告訴我們,跟大家做一個報告和說明。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。謝謝,有請林威洲、林委員。謝謝昭偉,請部長。有請部長。"},{"start":8418.287,"end":8441.421,"text":"好,徐部長今天我們要審查勞工退休金條例齁這個其中有七個案子是要推動新制勞工退休金自選投資請問部長你覺得勞工退休金投資最重要的他的目的是什麼賺錢還是"},{"start":8445.214,"end":8469.108,"text":"獲利增加他將來的勞工退休金能夠更多﹖就是,報告委員,他的投資一定是要,第一個一定要安全,能夠保本﹖安全,安全更重要﹖然後穩健,當然收益,當然想要自選就希望能夠多賺一點,這個投資收益,所以這個都是我想自選的一個他們希望達到的"},{"start":8470.147,"end":8490.217,"text":"其他的退休基金有沒有這個制度、治權?比如說公教人員﹑私校退府、公務員退府新制,但是規模很小,我記得私校退府多少錢?"},{"start":8492.205,"end":8519.316,"text":"七百億左右而已。那我們自己勞退的話應該先要三兆,四點九兆。退休金喔,這個最主要的目的啦,我個人的理解,就是說要你平常在工作的時候有收入嘛,等到這個退休之後沒有收入,所以平常要等於儲備了一些將來"},{"start":8520.663,"end":8521.344,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具"},{"start":8535.026,"end":8544.094,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及委員劉世芳等16人擬具"},{"start":8553.161,"end":8571.075,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第15條條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第15條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第15條條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第15條條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第15條條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第17條條條文修正草案：立法院第17條條條文修正草案：立法院第18條條文修正草案：立法院第19條"},{"start":8572.275,"end":8586.382,"text":"也不要造成其他人家人的負擔國家的負擔但是你如果舍本族我認為啦如果舍本族問我說我預支將來的退休金然後來操作要來賺取更多的利潤"},{"start":8588.194,"end":8589.235,"text":"三、委員劉霞等21人擬具"},{"start":8604.458,"end":8628.539,"text":"所以你針對這個要訂定這個自選的條例的修法因為這幾年很多生意希望能夠自提自選就針對自體的部分能夠自選但是我們就是也認為說因為勞退這個事情它其實社會保險的一個角色就是像剛剛委員講的它是退休之後經濟生活安全的一個依靠"},{"start":8629.36,"end":8630.401,"text":"當你面對像去年那種金融市場整個股債都下跌的情況下"},{"start":8647.312,"end":8650.014,"text":"立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第15條條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":8662.861,"end":8663.862,"text":"兩年定存利率的一個獲利給你。事實上這幾年的"},{"start":8692.505,"end":8695.066,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":8714.179,"end":8731.57,"text":"對他就說那當初都是政府理的草案然後立法院委員通過的那當初的制度是你們幫我決定的我是覺得勞工還是比較辛苦的一群有時候這件事情我會覺得說雖然我們抱著開放的態度但是還是要多聽各界的聲音"},{"start":8732.23,"end":8743.845,"text":"所以針對這個修法我覺得應該慎重慎重然後要多聽一些意見甚至召開公聽會等等然後也要比較其他的這個"},{"start":8745.384,"end":8747.046,"text":"一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":8766.964,"end":8772.728,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條之一"},{"start":8789.56,"end":8813.475,"text":"保證收益的角色。安全性已經保障了,但是如何讓他有更高的收益,恐怕是更好的、更穩健的辦法。我們之後還會繼續討論,我想今天可能也不會就很快的進入主條。再來我再請教關於這個開放服務業外勞的"},{"start":8816.417,"end":8819.199,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":8836.015,"end":8841.439,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議"},{"start":8863.695,"end":8886.653,"text":"整個開放如果要開放服務業移工對我們的族群對我們的性別就業的影響評估那這個部分我我們大概是這樣目前還沒有說什麼時候來討論但是我們會等觀光署把他的補充評估報告送來那並同我們勞動部所做的這些就業影響評估報告我們再來請專家開會做檢視"},{"start":8891.416,"end":8908.831,"text":"解釋之後我們才會適時的去提我們這個政策小組來評估來討論OK今天早上我們看到那個新聞就是說嘉義關子這個飯店業者兩百四十一間房間爭公務"},{"start":8911.257,"end":8918.884,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":8928.119,"end":8929.04,"text":"兩萬六兩萬六這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這"},{"start":8948.781,"end":8976.168,"text":"他們如果希望說開放外勞進口就移工讓他進來當然他們願意移工願意接受這個薪資本勞大概很難接受這樣的薪資所以這個將來都會有這樣的衝突一旦開放之後那個行業就會變成都是移工外籍移工本勞就進不去"},{"start":8977.335,"end":9005.199,"text":"大家要想像一下,兩萬六我就請得到,兩萬六千四我請到技工,還會修水電,本來沒有人會做啦,老實講。那個行業開放了,那就將來通通是外勞了。假設,我現在先假設說,如果連計程車開放,我看以後通通計程車都是外勞,那只要基本薪資。外送員如果開放了,他外送我看以後通通是外勞在做。"},{"start":9006.636,"end":9009.73,"text":"就移工在座了。本國勞工怎麼辦?"},{"start":9012.813,"end":9039.729,"text":"所以這個都是要整體去考量我們看到很多的行業都是開放了外勞之後那本勞就很難進入那個行業那反而就這個會衍生其他問題當然對僱主來講他有外勞的選擇外籍義工的選擇但是勞工的角度來看的話這個很多領域就變成本勞進不去啦"},{"start":9040.908,"end":9056.779,"text":"所以這個都要整體考量包括你們現在在研擬的所謂引進印度移工這個都要好好的大家來討論他衍生的一些效應都要一併的考慮好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝你們有請邱太遠、邱委員"},{"start":9072.214,"end":9094.813,"text":"謝謝召委、主席。我們請部長。請部長。部長,我想今天的主題,我們都在關心勞工的福利,那很多委員也都提了很多的見解。我想對於我們未來在修正,不管是政策"},{"start":9096.318,"end":9124.407,"text":"規定各方面應該有大的幫助。」我想我都很願意跟大家一起來共同努力。那有一些另外的主題可能我們以前也關心,那現在我再請教一下,我們看下一張。我想勞動力的穩定還是未來,我們台灣要一直去注意的事情。這可以怕人命。當然看起來是有來源,應該有四個方向,這個我們以前有討論過。"},{"start":9126.403,"end":9151.23,"text":"生育率提高,這有在表嗎?有,這個就是我們現在就是各部會努力啦,國家跟你一起養,希望其他生育率...好,好,好,那第二就是那個促進中高齡、高齡就業,這等一下再請教,那怎麼樣讓可能想要或者動機有沒有都可以的勞動人口來"},{"start":9153.103,"end":9176.15,"text":"以彌補我們現在職場上所需要的當然第四個當然剛剛韋哲偉有提到的擔心各方面這個我們都會謹慎來進行這個我想這幾個方向是大家過去一直在討論跟努力的看下一張好了好那我想我們看起來來看一下資料好像我們的一個"},{"start":9178.112,"end":9206.473,"text":"六十五或者是我們退休平均年齡好像比較早比其他國家不曉得你們那邊有沒有統計那好像再回來工作的就業率會比較低這補貼你們過去我們拍片這段時間到現在有沒有碰到什麼困難困難就是說第一個我是覺得我們可能雇主雇主的刻板印象對於中高齡高齡的就業或者"},{"start":9207.159,"end":9208.159,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":9225.969,"end":9229.912,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":9247.623,"end":9251.064,"text":"其中為了以前的長照的照顧,我們在大概二十年前曾經在雲林那邊推動"},{"start":9276.277,"end":9294.379,"text":"其中六十五位及七十退休的、七十五位來照顧七十五位醫療的老人。不過那個時候是用志工,也真的在媒介,很努力在媒介。當然後來可能也沒有延續,都是創造一些模式。"},{"start":9295.66,"end":9323.017,"text":"那後續當然可能也不一定有延續,但是總是有創造一些模式出來。那他山之子可以工作,我們現在發現我個人的感覺好像聽說日本比較蠻多很多年紀比較大的,都出來去做一種可能他們做得了的,甚至在餐飲內的服務。可能很多人在餐飲內服務是希望年輕一點的,但是"},{"start":9323.891,"end":9348.947,"text":"有些餐飲我覺得只要有人來把它處理好就好了。這個我們還不可以再了解說日本是怎麼做的還是其他國家是怎麼做的。這個部分當然就是說他們可能傳統上他們其實善用這些中高齡高齡銀髮族的人力啦那我們也現在也在鼓勵雇主就是說"},{"start":9350.236,"end":9350.676,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具第十七條之一"},{"start":9361.596,"end":9362.536,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":9391.267,"end":9418.483,"text":"就是我們進場去幫他媒合這些中高齡或高齡者那讓他們在這個勞動力的來源上能夠更迅速的去獲得填補我想我們有在做那當然就一直檢討成果跟看怎麼樣有精進的策略這可能要不斷的努力才能改變文化能改變大家的心態"},{"start":9419.981,"end":9448.223,"text":"當然在體能方面我們也是一個問題但是這個部分我相信只要媒合適當的體能部分大概沒有問題就是說我們那個植物再我們有在跟僱主溝通說其實我們可以有專家進去幫他做植物再設計讓這個整個流程更適合這些壯士代的工作人再來就是我們有輔具輔具每年每個人每年你只要拼用這些壯士代勞工每人每年有十萬塊的"},{"start":9449.424,"end":9472.777,"text":"其中一人擬具的費用可以來補助你,那這個都可以減輕他們在工作上,譬如說要搬重或者各種不便了,那這個部分我們也一直在做一些宣導讓戶主知道。我們以前在推這個計畫的時候,那個法案的時候當然我們也擔心說會去搶年輕人的位子,可是畢竟還是有很多"},{"start":9475.003,"end":9487.878,"text":"人不能說現在那個困境,像沒錢了怎麼辦?很多啊,像我們在弄健保也是很痛苦啊。我想國家政府還有醫界也都很頭痛啊。"},{"start":9490.446,"end":9515.976,"text":"總是要創造它的價值,不能就是卡死在那裡,當然來創造我們的智慧。我想這個部分,很多政策不是不能做,而是怎麼把它做得好。我們現在其實是整體的缺工,所以不會有說去搶青年人工作的問題。部長我請教你,你覺得我們現在有年輕人都跑去哪邊工作?"},{"start":9517.452,"end":9542.734,"text":"好像很多人都在缺人力,都在家裡,家裡有錢都不用出來工作,你們有沒有去統計一下?其實很多都到服務業批發零售那邊去啦,批發零售業。批發零售業,有需要那麼多人喔?原來了解年輕人都早就在做行為。"},{"start":9545.382,"end":9548.606,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":9565.058,"end":9574.504,"text":"現在的年輕人沒辦法結合我們大概七成的年輕人喜歡在服務業我們大概有七成的年輕人畢業以後的年輕人喜歡在服務業"},{"start":9579.165,"end":9584.269,"text":"但是我們其實現在也有投資青年就業方向,希望把它導向創業產業。對文化的一個形成會比較好,看現在這樣好了。那李姓的閣人其實有,我們也是最近我們開始關心這些那個"},{"start":9605.512,"end":9618.864,"text":"很多人,他小孩子也長,也稍微大了齁,想說不然退休可以發揮一下這樣齁。這個部分,不曉得我們勞動部這個部分對這個主題的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":9619.642,"end":9632.371,"text":"對,我們現在有一個,我們今天9月1號就是有一個婦女再就業計畫,三年的計畫,預計是說大概三年內希望增加14萬名的女性勞動力,那這個計畫包括說給這個女性,因為她可能離開職場一段時間了,"},{"start":9637.654,"end":9644.963,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十七條及第八條條文修正草案．立法院第十七條及第八條條文修正草案．"},{"start":9656.676,"end":9665.881,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第八條條文"},{"start":9675.285,"end":9676.785,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":9699.246,"end":9724.485,"text":"一些方向出來,那另外在勞動部這邊,我們未來就是會針對那個來源國的仲介,要求他要負連帶責任。這個當然是一個方法,但是不一定是好方法,還是可以再討論。那這個主題也請勞動部把後來的進展也給我們一下好了。當然在針對這個問題大家共同再來思考,好不好?好,感謝大家。謝謝主席。"},{"start":9730.478,"end":9756.175,"text":"下一位請紅山安紅委員請許部長劉勤部長"},{"start":9763.359,"end":9766.16,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":9780.06,"end":9782.462,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":9804.4,"end":9831.287,"text":"這一起是11月底的時候發生在林口的公安意外這個意外的事件跟臺中終結的事件很像都是吊車斷裂、掉落、砸在公車停但在這個事件還好人跑得快沒有被砸傷不想這些發生在工作場所或者是生活周遭公安的事故其實現在擔心的不只是勞工囉"},{"start":9832.991,"end":9856.128,"text":"連附近的居民都很擔心,部長你可以體會跟了解嗎?是。好。部長所以如果你知道如果住家附近的工地發生事故有鷹架或者是這些其中的吊壁工人掉下來你走在附近你會不會有點擔心?會。會嗎?會。會齁。好。大家都很擔心啊可是現在看到這麼多的新聞齁"},{"start":9857.785,"end":9886.542,"text":"我的辦公室其實也會接到民眾的電話大家會來詢問這些發生在附近的案件到底政府有沒有去檢查檢查完以後有沒有改善有沒有去罰其實大家都要問這個問題所以現在民眾很擔心沒有督導那也很擔心這些災難會發生在自己的身上更擔心會不會就像臺中的林淑雅老師的這個事件"},{"start":9889.035,"end":9900.232,"text":"議員,這些悲劇你會不會想預防?當然。如果可以建立預警機制的話會不會想建立?當然要建立。好。議員,我相信你的回答是這樣"},{"start":9903.687,"end":9918.96,"text":"現在台灣的建築工地這麼多勞工不可能也不一定有量能一一的去勞檢所以我自己覺得這裡面一個很關鍵的事情是要怎麼把高風險的名單給建立起來甚至對外揭露可能很重要部長同意嗎同意"},{"start":9920.883,"end":9948.992,"text":"在去年的四月我其實曾經開了一場記者會這場記者會的主題叫做沒有死傷的公安事故沒人管在這場記者會上面我其實要求勞動部應該彙整並公開公安事故的紀錄還有後續勞檢的紀錄那在今年五月的時候我其實也質詢過勞動部那當時勞動部的李俊逸次長那也承諾會建立一個公開查詢的系統"},{"start":9950.253,"end":9953.236,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":9969.161,"end":9986.23,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第"},{"start":9994.963,"end":10017.301,"text":"沒有死傷但發生這些事情也是高風險的地方啊沒死傷可能只是這次運氣好啊就像剛才在公車停可能只是下面的人跑得快啊但部長後來勞動部做了什麼我在做這個要求後部長知不知道勞動部後來做了什麼部長知不知道我們有開會部長後來治安署創了一個叫做媒體報導重大災害訊息"},{"start":10024.504,"end":10042.309,"text":"將媒體有報導的才放上來但請部長看一下這些內容其實我們都不會知道事故發生的地點在哪裡也不知道是哪個廠商後續到底發了什麼或者有沒有改善什麼在這一個媒體重大災害訊息裡面我們都看不到我們都看不到"},{"start":10045.413,"end":10072.207,"text":"所以如果民眾看完回到勞動部的裁罰系統裡面因為他也不知道發生日期跟發生地點所以他也不知道到底是不是同一個案件我這邊提醒勞工部一件事情就是你們的現在甚至我們看到你們的這個系統甚至喔直接貼上來直接把職災的受害者的姓名直接公布出來喔然後公布一年多都沒有拿掉喔"},{"start":10073.311,"end":10092.251,"text":"所以部長這個系統我們發現是該公佈的沒公佈不該公佈的卻把它公佈在上面一年多沒有拿下來反而不該被揭露的受害者不能被放在上面所以部長你覺得這個系統需不需要改善"},{"start":10093.45,"end":10121.965,"text":"委員這個要改善,這樣的一個系統這樣的揭露我覺得很不OK所以我所理解的是他們目前在明年1月1號馬上會上線的就是我們一個勞動部違反勞動法律世界單位財運系統有關職安衛的部分會增加有發生日期發生地"},{"start":10123.461,"end":10130.985,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":10140.487,"end":10166.66,"text":"你知道你們開了一個研商會議嗎?研商會議公佈的範圍限縮在職安法第37條第三項也就是勞動部已經有去檢查和處分的案件裡只有勞工死亡跟重傷才要公佈發生日期跟發生地點我不知道你知不知道這件事情他把它限縮了所以我的意思是什麼?更簡單跟大家說像是我們現在已經發生的已經去勞檢裁罰的終結"},{"start":10169.639,"end":10193.655,"text":"的這個事件還有這次林口吊車斷裂事故的事件按照現在的職安法第37條第三項裡面對不起按照你們召開的研商會議的記錄都是不用公開的喔因為裡面沒有勞工死亡對不起死亡的是終結事件死亡的是陳克林蘇亞老師不是勞工死亡"},{"start":10195.638,"end":10217.957,"text":"所以按照你們現在研商會議的內容像終結事件像是剛才說的這個林口吊車斷裂事件都是不用公開的喔徐副長我們說既然說要公開為什麼不把就把事情給做到位如果大家上去查發現欸"},{"start":10221.291,"end":10246.244,"text":"明明這麼嚴重的終結的事件結果在上面居然沒有記錄不用公開民眾的感受是什麼?部長你知不知道現在我們的要公佈的範圍被嚴重限縮只有勞工死亡才要所以終結事故是不用公開的這個齁我是覺得治安署你們再要再整個再檢討一下啦我覺得"},{"start":10246.994,"end":10254.558,"text":"這件事情我覺得委員關心好幾次我覺得我們要做就把它做好該揭露的就揭露了"},{"start":10258.165,"end":10285.344,"text":"我知道職安署會說這是法規問題我要說這件事情其實環境部還在環保署的時候還是署的時候其實都已經做到了啦在他們的系統裡面其實採儲的日期採儲的公司名稱違反的日期其實都一清二楚我甚至曾經都建議過勞動部你甚至都可以把假如它有改善你也可以把它放到網路上面去我也沒意見"},{"start":10287.416,"end":10304.247,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12條條文修正草案：立法院第13屆第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14"},{"start":10306.889,"end":10318.001,"text":"這是把高風險的狀況給預警出來現在我認為現在治安署不乾不脆甚至自己先說為什麼環保署做得到的事情為什麼勞工部做不到?署長為什麼?"},{"start":10322.826,"end":10345.247,"text":"我們執法法對有些項目是沒有授權揭露這邊我們想或許明年我們執法法修法的時候把這個法規授權更有效的讓我們來做執行我想這是我們會先處理的那至於說委員這兩次這兩個月一直不督導我們我們非常感謝因為揭露資訊讓民眾來的空間都是我們也是認為是非常核心的重點"},{"start":10345.908,"end":10372.48,"text":"那至於說是全部都揭露我們有一些法規的部分的我個人覺得還是要有法規所以比較得當了。署長我對你這個說法我要挑戰這是你們做的行政處分欸你們做的行政處分有什麼好不能揭露的你們是偷偷摸摸嗎?你們自己去勞檢有處罰這是你們做的行政處分為什麼不能揭露?只要把必要的各自的資訊給隱蔽起來"},{"start":10376.476,"end":10386.723,"text":"這什麼地方不能揭露你告訴我這是你們行政處分我沒有要去公佈他們的商業機密啊你只要把個資隱蔽起來為什麼不能揭露你給我一個理由署長這跟法規授權對不起這是你們的行政處分欸你們去勞檢以後只是因為他沒有勞工死亡為什麼這樣就不能揭露"},{"start":10406.277,"end":10427.016,"text":"我聽不懂我知道有法規授權更好但我完全聽不懂為什麼你們行政處分不能讓社會知道難道現在勞動部網站上面的所有公開的行政處分都是有法規都一條一條授權才可以嗎我不知道為什麼行政處分不能夠讓社會大眾知道"},{"start":10428.365,"end":10430.327,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":10450.868,"end":10475.533,"text":"市長我提醒一件事情之前我們在修責安法的時候我們其實也討論過揭露的問題當初責安署跟大家的說法都是說啊不要寫太細啦結果現在不要寫太細變成你們不揭露的理由了報告委員責安法是102年修的不是我說當時我們在討論相關的事情的時候我們都會說我們不要寫太細我現在意思是說市長事實是可以揭露的事情"},{"start":10476.701,"end":10478.522,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12條之一"},{"start":10498.639,"end":10499.58,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":10530.5,"end":10554.851,"text":"你讓大家知道這個僱主或者是這個老闆他有做的努力我也不反對但現在不是啊我覺得現在是這個像擠牙膏一樣一點一點一點可是整個看起來就達不到預警機制的這個效果啊部長你覺得多久時間我們可以把這事情給做好金額的部分確實要請保護師來幫忙不是講一個時間嘛"},{"start":10557.456,"end":10558.137,"text":"兩月我們處理好了。"},{"start":10583.982,"end":10584.603,"text":"陳佩瑜、陳委員請部長"},{"start":10604.701,"end":10613.614,"text":"部長您好,我們時間有限,我想問一下部長您有出現在最新的這一本所有台灣的爸爸媽媽幾乎都會看的雜誌,不知道您自己有沒有印象?"},{"start":10616.212,"end":10618.374,"text":"三、委員吳淑儀等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":10637.392,"end":10665.578,"text":"在日本跟香港跟台灣卻呈現負成長。關於這個缺工的問題,或者是勞工本身在企業端工作的很多訴求,不知道部長您這邊在接受完這個雜誌的訪問之後,您認為友善家庭職場在勞動部這邊,如果您快速想到您覺得您還能做些什麼事情,協助勞工在勞動現場可以覺得更友善的被對待,然後也願意生養下一代。部長您覺得,從勞動部的角度您覺得可以做哪些事情?"},{"start":10668.144,"end":10673.826,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":10684.83,"end":10712.604,"text":"年輕世代的爸爸媽媽對於自己到職場上實現自我的專長實現自我的天分這件事情其實大家對於工作是有些想像跟企圖心的可是一旦把這個企圖心切回到職場現實的時候部長我先考你一下你覺得年輕的爸媽他們在意職場的哪些因素會讓他們更願意留在職場或者是在職場實踐自我當中還願意生育下一代您覺得年輕世代的爸媽在意什麼樣的事情"},{"start":10715.765,"end":10716.145,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具"},{"start":10730.472,"end":10755.08,"text":"好那沒關係部長我跟您報告第一個是彈性工時佔65%的爸爸媽媽最在意有沒有辦法彈性工時第二個如同您說的七有沒有機會設置零拖或者是幼兒園第三個是居家上班也就是在疫情之後的遠距工作的可能性這三個比例是年輕世代的爸媽最在意的事情可是我想要請部長看一下這個投影片的上端"},{"start":10755.66,"end":10774.556,"text":"其實大部分的父親跟母親都有想要工作的企圖心你看喔在兼職工作或是全職工作的比例都很高對嗎?全職月的比例其實不高也就是說大家這個世代年輕的爸媽他們對於自己在職場上是有些想像的可是勞動部有沒有機會提供這樣的職場環境給予勞工們?部長您覺得呢?"},{"start":10780.084,"end":10797.285,"text":"對,就是說可能在,因為可能有些職場是可以提供彈性,有些職場可能比較不容易,那我覺得我們應該先從可以提供彈性這個公使的這些職場鼓勵雇主能夠來"},{"start":10799.927,"end":10814.501,"text":"來做到落實。」那勞動部的角度我們來看一下其實勞動部一直有一個工作生活平衡獎啦也就是說勞動部在這個議題上並不是沒有作為可是我們來看一下這個評審項目有包含這些那生活平衡獎我們來看一下"},{"start":10815.762,"end":10841.458,"text":"而勞動部這個生活平衡獎裡面有一個彈性工作獎也就是可能是彈性工時或者是彈性工作地點也就是說勞動部其實可能在幾年前就有意識到這個事情是重要的或者是友善家庭的部分勞動部在這個獎項裡面有一個單獨的項目叫做友善家庭可是我們來看在相關勞動部的這些獎勵鼓勵措施當中對於企業端的實質上更積極的鼓勵或者是互動溝通過往以"},{"start":10843.459,"end":10872.135,"text":"一往以來都是比較被動的他就是一個被動接受企業的報名可是報名之後他們得到的可能就是一個獎牌我們看了然後相關一萬塊的相關獎品也不是獎金我們想要問一下如果勞動部自己都已經辦了相關的獎項跟比賽而且每一年都做不是只有做一兩年那勞動部其實在這件事情上是有一些想法跟態度的可是可不可以更加的積極去服應更多年輕世代父母親的需求部長您自己的觀點怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":10872.867,"end":10891.005,"text":"其實我們辦這個獎項是讓這些這個算是一個幸福的企業他們的一些友善勞工的作為能夠讓更多的企業來學習他們作為一個標竿那所以當然"},{"start":10891.884,"end":10905.789,"text":"獎牌獎金那是那是個honor但是沒有辦法說給他們很多的一個獎金那如果我們不談獎牌獎金部長您覺得在勞動部的角度還可以做更多什麼事情我先提供一個數字這也是勞動部給這個雜誌說的勞動部統計臺灣受僱者在2020年平均年總工時為2008個小時在39個主要國家中排名第六甚至我們高於南韓的1904個小時高於日本的1626個小時"},{"start":10921.115,"end":10947.069,"text":"也就是說勞動部其實你們已經知道要做相關的事情不管是透過鼓勵措施或是相關企業對話可是可不可以更積極的回應更多年輕世代父母親的需求那我再跟部長報告最後一個議題其實今年諾貝爾獎這個得主他也提到了女性並沒有真的想要離開職場而是整個職場的環境的不友善讓年輕的女性他們必須要在而且部長您在裡面受訪也提到台灣有一個"},{"start":10948.089,"end":10950.11,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":10969.514,"end":10980.582,"text":"三、委員有更多的討論跟相關的規劃措施不管是透過獎勵透過更多的跟職場的對話讓勞工在現場真的可以感受到而不是只有民間雜誌辦了這樣的票選或者是這樣的獎勵但是勞動部可能在這個議題上其實還不夠跟進民間的需求"},{"start":10987.788,"end":11009.738,"text":"謝謝委員我想這個部分的確勞動部還要再更有積極的作為那這邊我也會要求相關的業務單位一起來討論因為這個可能牽涉到跨單位那我們會來怎麼樣來讓企業能夠發展更多有效的措施然後政府又有一些鼓勵、獎勵來讓他們願意來做那這個部分我想我會來責成"},{"start":11015.06,"end":11029.111,"text":"相關業務單位來展現這個我們也都真的非常希望勞動部在後續可以做出更積極的事情不然我相信部長你在這個雜誌受訪的時候你一定心裡面也是在意這個事情而且你也願意認同這個價值好以上謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝有請楊委員謝謝主席主席有請一下許部長好有請部長"},{"start":11049.824,"end":11072.178,"text":"兩位好部長好部長我們今天討論勞工退休金條例我在這邊有一個問題想要請問你個人的看法就是說現在大概有一部分人因為我們現在勞工自體的退休金"},{"start":11073.018,"end":11086.187,"text":"是不可以自選操作標的嗎?那部長在這個議題上你的看法是覺得可以還是不可以?你比較傾向主張哪一個?"},{"start":11087.943,"end":11114.983,"text":"現在是不行嘛。像失效退福基金他大概已經可以了嘛。那勞工退休金有關勞工自體的部分,部長個人的看法是覺得?包委如果說是個人的看法,因為我是覺得退休金是勞工老年退休生活一個保障。"},{"start":11116.465,"end":11132.31,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案："},{"start":11145.121,"end":11170.676,"text":"自選的自體的部分如果自選他必須自擔風險那我是會比較擔心勞工這一部分如果當遇到像去年股債同聲下跌兩二三成的時候其實對勞工的一個一個損害是蠻大的所以這種情況我是認為這個部分我目前目前會比較保守一點部長的看法倒是跟我一致因為我覺得"},{"start":11174.86,"end":11199.586,"text":"勞工自提的退休金然後看起來日後是必須要來填補勞保年金給付不足共同建構勞工退休以後的生活保障可是這個又遇到一個問題就是說自提的部分其實是屬於他的財產"},{"start":11207.916,"end":11227.407,"text":"對嗎?限制勞工自行選擇投資標的這個本身就是跟財產所有有衝突第二個就是最重要的就是剛剛部長講的如何穩健獲利因為"},{"start":11230.484,"end":11259.353,"text":"自提的退休金假如說一直放著獲利不足其實它根本趕不上通貨膨脹這個是很大的問題我相信特別是在勞保年金給付沒有辦法增加的情況下我個人一直對勞退的部分是很關注的"},{"start":11261.32,"end":11279.966,"text":"所以剛剛部長有講到穩健獲利我們怎麼讓他穩健獲利包委我們現在當然整個這幾年的勞動基金的投資投資收益都還不錯啦我們平均大概都有4.64.6%我們也就是勝選投資標的不管是自操或委外"},{"start":11289.13,"end":11313.237,"text":"其在整個績效上都有有做一些要求就是務必要讓我們的勞工的勞本能夠有好的一個收益有好的收益那我是這個部分我們當然會持續來努力啦會持續來努力那因為我由你們來操作那有沒有"},{"start":11315.339,"end":11343.188,"text":"有最低獲利擔保的嗎?對不對?這兩年的定期嗎?一定是保證獲利的你最後一定是最少都有這個銀行兩年定存利率的一個獲益保證所以就是你現在就當然是政府限制你沒有辦法自體的去自選但是我同時也保證你一定是獲益的就不會讓你的退休金會棄給別人"},{"start":11348.188,"end":11360.813,"text":"這個當然還需要做更深的研究跟廣泛的討論因為我剛剛講過了其實字體的部分其實還是勞工自己的錢"},{"start":11363.874,"end":11375.809,"text":"所以我們也是態度上我們勞動部也是勞動部所以覺得說我們就開放的態度請聽各界的意見但是我們基本上還是要站在保護勞工的立場對因為這個跟"},{"start":11382.658,"end":11401.733,"text":"老闆幾父其實是有相關聯我接下來還是因為這個可能是本屆最後一次勞動部到委員會來了所以我還是把一些數據必須要講一下因為我一直覺得廣大的勞工"},{"start":11405.276,"end":11430.847,"text":"退休生活以後的保障其實是政府的責任而且在過幾年以後問題馬上就會出現那我也知道改革的困難因為勞工本身收入本來就要提高保費好像主力也大那保費不增加怎麼提高怎麼健全整個機制這個是"},{"start":11434.648,"end":11456.136,"text":"是政府必須要去非常有智慧去面對然後有勇氣去解決的我大概念幾個數字給部長聽聽看就知道勞保年金有多嚴重因為像在澎湖"},{"start":11459.648,"end":11488.98,"text":"相對於相對比較一般壽星階級的薪資沒有那麼高的地方其實我對於勞工的退休生活其實是還蠻憂心的。2022年呢我們大概就是勞工整體整體的領導的給付大概是一萬八千兩百九十四元台北市"},{"start":11490.168,"end":11503.311,"text":"同一年臺北市最低的生活費已經到了一萬八千六百八十二,也就是說勞工平均可以"},{"start":11509.585,"end":11529.455,"text":"可以得到的年金給付在台北市是已經低於最低生活費了而且這種情況會隨著通貨膨脹越來越嚴重整體的有六成的勞工年金給付低於兩萬"},{"start":11532.406,"end":11536.848,"text":"在這種情況下我們還每天在擔心勞保基金什麼時候會破產,這個才是最大的問題。"},{"start":11548.866,"end":11549.366,"text":"二、委員吳太太等16人擬具"},{"start":11565.023,"end":11583.744,"text":"負擔最終給負責任的條文,把它入法,盡速入法。其實你不入法還是常年在撥補了啦,政府不大可能讓勞保倒。而入法的好處是最少可以安定"},{"start":11584.505,"end":11599.874,"text":"安定超過一千萬的勞工的薪,讓他在工作的時候不用擔心退休以後日子怎麼過。好不好?好,不然我們一起努力。好,謝謝部長、謝謝主席。好,謝謝委員。"},{"start":11609.008,"end":11636.337,"text":"本日會議登記質詢委員已發言完畢委員楊耀所提出的書面質詢已列入刊登公報作以下決議說明及詢答完畢委員質詢未答覆或請補充資料者請相關機構於兩週內以書面答覆委員利用要求"},{"start":11638.058,"end":11653.229,"text":"其限者從其鎖定：勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案等15案,另則其繼續審查。本次會議到此結束,現在散會。謝謝大家。"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}