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跟委員報告在主辦國它在會場上面它分為藍區跟綠區最主要藍區是"},{"start":95.993,"end":110.927,"text":"需要有這個大費許可的報名的證件才能進去那立區它通常就會開放給沒有持有這個報名證件但是可以當地這個去登記啦或者是這樣子一個方式去進去參觀"},{"start":112.793,"end":130.93,"text":"好 那個署長你接下來可不可以回答一下為什麼因為我剛剛有提到但是你在附送回答的時候沒有特別再提因為我剛剛有強調就是說綠區在官方文宣上就是有要開放給原住民團體"},{"start":132.772,"end":144.362,"text":"因為我是原住民的立法委員所以我會特別關注這個部分那我想請教署長你可不可以回答就是以你的理解為什麼要特別針對原住民團體來開放呢"},{"start":147.06,"end":159.588,"text":"這個部分的話我沒有特別去了解說但是因為在藍區事實上也有周邊會議我沒有要關心藍區的部分我在這邊要跟你討論綠區特別開放給原住民團體這個部分"},{"start":162.99,"end":191,"text":"我想因為其實氣候公約他非常重視就是跟原住民還有跟這個相關的團體的一些對話跟溝通所以主辦國他或許有這個規劃但這個部分確實我沒有因為我今年沒有到現場去參加我想這個有沒有到現場應該是沒有關係那我覺得其實在整個氣候變遷下是這樣子如果署長不清楚也沒關係"},{"start":192.02,"end":211.906,"text":"那我今天把這樣的觀念特別在這邊跟署長讓署長了解一下那也在座的各位也要特別的注意一下就是一個很重要的原因在氣候變遷下最先衝擊的族群任何國家的政府其實都很清楚的就是"},{"start":212.626,"end":239.301,"text":"大自然環境最密切的族群其實就是原住民族我們因為在這個環境迫害之下整個原住民族的生存權、發展權甚至這個土地自然資源的權利都是被嚴重傷害的所以這個部分特別在這邊提出來讓署長瞭解因為"},{"start":240.495,"end":263.169,"text":"您坐在一個非常重要的位置就是氣候變遷署你是署長所以這一點我希望從現在開始可以特別注意因為未來這個部分到時候我想時間再久一點你會更清楚知道原住民在這整個氣候變遷的一個扮演的角色"},{"start":263.749,"end":264.251,"text":"主要主要主要主要主要"},{"start":272.368,"end":295.138,"text":"在這個1992年的巴西里約召開的這個里約環境跟發展宣言宣言的部分全部27項有規範各國政府環境權利與責任的基本原則其中的第22項揭示了原住民族的傳統習慣與智慧在環境的永續發展上扮演關鍵的角色因此在各國的政府"},{"start":295.558,"end":317.434,"text":"都是要肯定並且支持援助民族參與氣候變遷衝擊一下環境的保護、管理跟監測我想這個概念很重要那身為氣候變遷署的署長要請您特別了解這個概念所以我接下來我要請問署長在未來"},{"start":318.635,"end":339.04,"text":"在您帶領的這個氣候變遷署各項措施的計畫是不是應該根據地球憲章的基本原則鼓勵並支持援助民族運用我們的智慧與生活習慣來協助你們落實淨零排碳的工作請問署長你支不支持這樣子的一個方向是完全支持"},{"start":339.42,"end":354.489,"text":"好 謝謝署長那我接下來要請教就是說那我可不可以請署長你們的這個氣候變遷署可以進一步的加以規劃那針對我剛剛提的這些加以規劃可以嗎"},{"start":355.189,"end":365.317,"text":"是跟委員報告其實在今年立法院三讀通過氣候變遷因應法也很清楚的把原住民就是我們在擬定氣候變遷各項政策的時候必須要將原住民的相關的跟氣候變遷不管是在減緩跟調適都要納入好那所以你們開始規劃了嗎我們現在在進行的包括就是國家氣候變遷行動綱領"},{"start":379.168,"end":394.582,"text":"還有接下來再進行調試計畫都會進行都會納入對都會納入那請問就是你有很你有很認真的把這個原住民族的這個部分你怎麼樣已經加入了這樣子的規劃了嗎"},{"start":396.643,"end":418.908,"text":"這個會隨著每一項計畫在實施就是規劃跟提出的期程的時候那我們會開始包括跟原住民主管機關還有相關的團體那包括這個最重要就是我們立法院相關的委員這邊我們都會開始來進行討論因為我也沒有接到你們任何的邀約所以看起來是還沒有開始"},{"start":420.462,"end":445.727,"text":"對 就跟委員報告沒有關係那我剛剛講這個規劃你需要多少時間來規劃我們現在因為正在規劃是下一期的國家氣候變遷的就是階段管制目標還有這個行政計畫這個部分我們會把它納入那另外的話就是在進行這個氣候變遷調適的相關的作業這個是明年會開始啟動那這部分我們也會進行"},{"start":446.707,"end":460.658,"text":"明年開始啟動那等一下那所以我再問你你還是沒有回答我問題你需要多少時間來規劃好原住民相關的這個特別是原住民相關的這個部分你需要多少時間規劃那跟我們報告我們在至少三個月內我們先就這些計劃跟擬定的時候那需要進行跟這個溝通的一些原則我們先請問你這三個月要跟誰溝通我們先跟這個先擬法我們先盤點"},{"start":475.649,"end":478.081,"text":"依照《氣候變遷因應法》需要進行推動我剛剛說明的"},{"start":480.396,"end":508.197,"text":"這些方案、計畫或者是措施先做一個盤點然後接下來就是需要跟原住民相關團體的這個進行跟進行方式我們來進行討論那剛剛你有特別點名到就是要跟各位原住民的這個立法委員來溝通那我也想要請教你是要跟這一屆的立委溝通還是跟下一屆的原住民立委溝通我跟委員報告我們現在是三個月我們先進行要先盤點有哪一些事項"},{"start":509.057,"end":535.354,"text":"有一些方案措施那需要來提的我們先三個月內先盤點出來那接下來才進一步去提說需要溝通的對象那所以所以你後面才要盤點溝通的對象所以你又說你要先跟原住民的立法委員溝通我真的是有點聽不太懂就是說你的意思是其實剩下這個時間你也沒有要跟我們溝通的意思"},{"start":536.174,"end":560.322,"text":"我想這個都是持續都會再溝通那我們現在因為剛剛委員關心我們氣候法裡面因為會包括的就是減緩跟調適的這些方案跟計劃那我們先盤點出來有哪一些到底接下來有哪一些所以你說三個月就是很明顯其實這一屆的原住民立委你是根本不需要溝通的因為我們的任期就到1月"},{"start":562.603,"end":581.066,"text":"還沒有你的三個月我們裡面的成員可能不一定是一樣但是我很清楚告訴你我會繼續在這邊其實我們在這段期間內也是一直有跟委員包括我們在進行氣候法的修法當時的在訂定的時候也都持續有在做溝通"},{"start":582.574,"end":606.643,"text":"我是沒有太強烈的感覺就是因為我很擔心你溝通的對象不對了啦好那至少我剛剛點出了原住民的這一塊看起來署長從第一個回答並沒有很有概念所以我在這邊我鼓勵你好好去研究一下好那再不然"},{"start":607.748,"end":636.229,"text":"我們即便現在在忙選舉但是我想我們的任期在這邊這個坐一天和尚敲一天鐘嘛辦公室還是都有在運作啊是我們會積極的對啊你總不會等說要確認我在這個我們1月13號確定我有選上之後才要趕快來溝通才要開始慢慢規劃吧是跟我們這段期間其實一直都有跟各個委員在做溝通是有嗎"},{"start":638.649,"end":661.499,"text":"我們辦公室有嗎這個我們會改善有嗎對啊你不要亂講話啊就是各個委員我們辦公室就是沒有所以我今天特別提出來所以要請署長特別注意嘛對啊那你要三個月我很擔心啊那你如果要溝通其實你從現在就可以常常來溝通啊我吧台都開著是謝謝"},{"start":662.379,"end":683.812,"text":"對啊所以我最後再請教一下世界銀行去年指出全球已經有68個國家或區域區域已經有這個碳定價了那今年會有多少國家有定價這個都是要依照那個世界銀行跟各國去做的這個趨勢那在今年初的報告是73個國家或地區"},{"start":685.509,"end":707.423,"text":"今年會有73個國家跟地區我想是這樣我們台灣的這個碳交易平台的相關法則不知道現在是進度怎麼樣那是不是有如你們的預期那我比較好奇的就是說你什麼時候來完成訂定這樣子"},{"start":708.824,"end":724.309,"text":"我們現在的時程是預計就是在最近會先把這個碳費徵收的相關的規劃來做一個預告那明年的話明年1月會開始就是針對費率的部分會進行這個由費率審議會來做討論"},{"start":726.482,"end":751.145,"text":"那所以什麼時候完成你有預估的時間嗎我們現在很清楚就是明年的碳排放都會被計到這個碳費徵收的範圍也就是說明年開始這個碳費徵收就會上路那你打算一頓大概訂多少錢這個要由明年的碳費的費率審議會來做討論跟決定好所以那個我剛剛前面問的就是說你預估何時完成訂定目前你們是"},{"start":752.165,"end":777.687,"text":"沒有竊竊預期的時間會在明年的第一季把包括這是碳費的徵收辦法還有費率審議會這個這個費率的部分來做明年第一季大概就會做確定好那這樣子我我只是提醒我們這個各國的經驗其實看起來應該都是越早實施好那整個挑戰就會越小所以我在這邊特別提醒署長好謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":784.667,"end":785.282,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149030","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149030","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3c100a9878a076fcca8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a0322165cd330bf6083615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳欣盈","委員發言時間":"10:55:45 - 11:11:10","影片長度":"00:15:25","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":925,"end_time":"2023-12-14T11:11:10+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T10:55:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":909,"blocks":[["吳委員欣盈：（10時55分）謝謝，有請部長及外交部李次長。"],["主席：請部長及次長。"],["薛部長富盛：吳召委好。"],["吳委員欣盈：謝謝兩位。剛剛聽到薛部長的報告是以專業、務實及有貢獻來報告這次COP的出國，可是我個人感覺是一個mix picture，然後我覺得是見仁見智，譬如這七年臺灣的碳使用率增加，天然氣也是增加，當然以整個經濟的成長或是從百分比來看的話，不同角度來看這個東西就會有不同的解答。","其實我知道這次外交部有安排一些會議，這裡有一些照片是外交部及立法院安排的，有一些是我私人的會議，譬如在右上方這位Michael Sheren，就是我在FB上面有PO的綠色金融大師，我本來是想在藍區跟他見面，可是因為臨時我們四位立法委員全部都沒辦法進去，所以我就在外面這個公共空間跟他喝杯咖啡，然後把我本來想在藍區跟他討論的事情變成在外面討論。他之前在聯合國開發計畫署（UNDP）擔任永續金融中心的高級顧問，在2016年到2019年期間，他也擔任G20永續金融研究小組的主席，同時他在2016年的時候幫中國銀行在英國證交所發行他們第一個Green Bond，所以他的經驗非常豐富，他有很多Public-Private Partnership的經驗。","接下來我有一個影片要快速跟大家分享一下。","（播放影片）"],["吳委員欣盈：謝謝。所以我想展示的是，其實臺灣在外交困境當中是非常艱難的，事實上我有被邀請參加兩場Parliamentary Pavilion，就是週一上午的時候跟週二下午的時候，我都有作為與談人，可是最後因為沒有拿到藍區的證件，我也沒有辦法進去，相當地可惜。","之後星期四的時候，我們去COP，但是星期四COP剛好休會，所以我就自己跨了邊界去了阿布達比。我也想跟兩位分享，其實我是被邀請去做與談人，這次有辦法進去，因為我是用民間的名義進去的，這是國際智庫Milken研究院，中間這位是Michael Milken本人，這是第5屆中東及非洲國家召開峰會，關心未來再生能源用金融帶動產業轉型，Milken專注在4個主軸：教育、健康、新創企業（entrepreneurship）還有金融的部分。","同時，我要提到，其實這次過去阿布達比邊界的時候也發現到，阿布達比現在有全世界最大的太陽能板的面積，它是跟中國合作的，這也代表石油國家可以重新再做能源轉型，它本身就有油，同時空間大、太陽多、風也多，要做轉型是非常有利基點的。這也呼應了我覺得臺灣應該要勇敢面對，如果我們真的要變成能源堅韌國家的話，我們其實選擇是不多的，因為我們是一個小島國，也沒有很多的天然資源，不像中東。這次我們私下跟一些歐洲國家的議員交流，像盧森堡，他們覺得他們不支持核能，可是他們是跟邊界的比利時買核能，對不對？這些國家雖然不支持核能、不簽署這些合約，不代表他們沒有在用核能的電。可是臺灣就是一個鎖國，我們要在這個情況之下怎麼樣去突破這個困境？我覺得不考慮啟動核能的話，是不務實的。","再來，我想要分享的是我們實際上面對外交的困境。這個是我從CSIS智庫2020年報告後面的截圖，上面列出臺灣撤出聯合國之後現在所有的observing或是full member的membership，裡頭重點也有講到ADB，就是中間第二排的下面，到時候可以提供你們參考。","對我而言，我覺得我們要更務實地面對臺灣的外交困境。世界這麼大，我們常常講我們有13個邦交國，可是事實上這13個邦交國所占的地面面積是全球的0.1%，以全球的國家人口來看，這250萬人是全世界的0.3%人口面積而已，所以臺灣在這個情況之下，我們要站在什麼樣的立場？不只是用政府機關，像這次我們4位委員都沒有辦法進入藍區的場……"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["吳委員欣盈：部長，你也沒辦法進去，對不對？我們要怎麼樣能發揮其他我看到這些NGO的membership？為什麼我突然講到Asian Development Bank，就是亞洲開發銀行呢？接下來我想要分享，我個人的看法是，如果今天臺灣必須要走到淨零碳排的話，我們的金融產業必須要跟國際接軌，然後我們所有官方的金融機構必須官民一把尺，才能讓我們跟國際接軌，同時能淨零碳排、淨零轉型，我們的金融產業必須要走到國際化。你可以看到，這次像COP有loss and damage fund，這個loss and damage fund裡頭對我而言，其實叫做氣候金融的二軌外交。譬如像氣候金融投資、主權基金等等，這些都是可以互相彼此投資的。譬如這次我有跟我們的邦交國諾魯做交流，對不對？諾魯這個國家還比帛琉更小，我問他們現在淨零的方向是如何、能源用得怎麼樣，他們說他們是用柴油（diesel）為主，島上只要裝兩個區塊的太陽能板，馬上50%就可以走Go Clean。OK！我說：「請問一下你的solar panel誰幫你裝？」他說中國幫他裝的，然後同時他說最近要蓋個碼頭，是中國幫他做的；那我說：「你不是我們臺灣的邦交國嗎？你是邦交國，為什麼這個案子是給中國做？」他說中國就是Asian Development Bank去做這個談判的。所以我的意思就是說其實透過ADB（亞洲開發銀行），我們臺灣是full membership，我們在這一部分打輸的話，我覺得是相當可惜的。而且我要提到，您看外交部現在這個報告上有講到：有充分發揮外交的效益。我會覺得，也提供你們參考，很多國家像澳洲、西班牙、義大利跟加拿大，他們的MOFA跟MOE是併在一起的，它的名字叫做Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade，我真的覺得這是個非常重要的議題，可以呼應我們的外交跟經濟是不是可以一起並肩作戰？這樣子的話才不會有像我們的邦交國諾魯這個案子，現在我們有ADB的full membership，反而被中國把這個案子簽走。"],["李次長淳：委員，可以讓我簡單回答一下嗎？ADB的案子是透過招標、有廠商，所以是中國廠商得標，不是中國去協助諾魯。"],["吳委員欣盈：是，我知道。"],["李次長淳：中國廠商為什麼會得標？事實上這邊也講到CABEI，其實中國廠商在全世界各地都用低價的方式去競標，它背後有大量的政府或其他的補貼，所以很多的國家都在抱怨說這些投標機制可能要做修改，只是跟委員補充，臺灣當然會非常積極的運用ADB，我們是以一個full membership的身分來充分發揮，我們也用很多機制來鼓勵我們的業者去參加ADB的標案，只是在剛才您提到這個特定的標案上面，最終是中國的企業得標，ADB是甲方，它來招標，得標的企業是中國，不是中國在協助諾魯。"],["吳委員欣盈：我現在只是跟外交部及我們行政單位講，要作戰的時候，尤其我們這麼多委員出現，應該是要走大門、走正路的，OK！我知道我們臺灣的外交處境是非常有困境的，這次我們這樣子去……"],["李次長淳：委員，我們都希望所有人都可以走大門、走正路。"],["吳委員欣盈：我覺得我很對不起納稅人，我覺得我沒有發揮到我們該發揮到的效應，如果真的要做立院外交的話，我們等立法院院長請這些國際人員來就好了，舉例來講，我遇到好幾個這些跟我們吃早飯的人，他們的牌子上都寫「Party Overflow」，那什麼意思？Party不是開Party的Party，Party是一個團體的意思。那些委員告訴我「Party Overflow」是說不能發言的委員才在飯店外面跟我們吃早飯……"],["李次長淳：報告委員，這個情況在COP28以前一直存在，我們會持續跟立法院一起來努力。這次有一些特殊狀況，我相信委員也很清楚。"],["吳委員欣盈：是，所以我的意思是說剛剛那些組織有full membership，我們應該積極的把相關的窗口，不管是經濟部、財政部或什麼的，對剛剛那些相關有full member的組織能夠接上對口來發揮真正的功能，對不對？"],["李次長淳：當然、當然。"],["吳委員欣盈：然後我們比較不是正式會員的一些組織，就要走正的路，像這次這些NPO全部都是先認同一個中國的，對不對？我們用這些證件進去的話，我們也認同一個中國嗎？"],["李次長淳：委員，我們也非常感謝我們立法院在國會外交上來協助一起推動，我們當然希望所有人都可以走大門、走正路，但是對於國際情勢，我們也希望大家一起來配合。"],["吳委員欣盈：當時我在現場的時候，我們要拿之前你們給我們的證件進去的時候，當場就有聯合國的人在現場跟我講，我聽到啦！他就跟你們講說：「You know you betrayed my trust. This is not how was supposed to be. You shouldn't be here」就是你們不應該在這邊。"],["李次長淳：委員也很清楚，您出發前我們有跟您溝通兩次，今年情況比較特殊一點，我相信您也知道特殊的地方在什麼地方。"],["吳委員欣盈：沒有什麼特殊的地方……"],["李次長淳：所以我們大家要一起努力。"],["吳委員欣盈：你們照的方式就是，你們要的話，就是要用正當的方式跟國際上做交流……"],["李次長淳：當然、當然。"],["吳委員欣盈：否則你會讓所有想幫助我們的人都很難做事情，謝謝你。"],["李次長淳：沒錯。"],["吳委員欣盈：然後，最後，不好意思，我要講最後一頁，就是關於環境部的部分，我之前跟部長追過，就是環境部的十年碳定價路徑圖，因為其實我之前也多次呼籲有關碳費、碳稅、碳抵換交易、碳交換的平臺這四種到底要怎麼樣陸續有配套措施？因為這不只是對產業，還有臺灣碳排金融接軌的國際性是非常重要的，因為很多產業和業界都不瞭解碳權到底要不要買，然後要買多少，未來這個東西能不能成為金融商品，有沒有一些其他碳定價的機制存在。產業轉型需要很多年的時間，不能一次馬上到位，如果整個架構沒有提出來的話，產業很難做一些中長期的規劃，所以我想瞭解你們什麼時候可以提出十年路徑圖？上次我跟部長詢問過，看看次長今天有什麼樣的想法，可以給我承諾嗎？什麼時候可以做出來？"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告，這個部分之前也有委員提到，我們應該可以在3個月內，因為最主要還是要看政府這一端要做的中長期規劃，目前是先以碳價，也就是收碳費為主，我們會依委員的指示在3個月內確實……"],["吳委員欣盈：你的意思是3個月只能做碳費……"],["施次長文真：沒有，3個月內我們會把十年整體的路徑圖提出來跟委員做報告。"],["吳委員欣盈：OK！只要有時間出來，謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員欣盈）：不好意思！我釐清一下，薛部長離席的原因是因為他要去做預算討論協商，剛剛是由施次長來代理質詢。","請陳委員瑩發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.957218750000003,"end":14.610968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.066593750000003,"end":16.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.82159375,"end":20.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.27221875,"end":22.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.28909375,"end":23.402843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.81596875,"end":35.704718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.04221875,"end":58.165343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.182218750000004,"end":59.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.56596875,"end":61.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.742843750000006,"end":63.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.07159375,"end":72.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.28971875,"end":78.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.85409375,"end":123.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.99034375000001,"end":127.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.57221875,"end":148.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.47909375,"end":165.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.22409375,"end":170.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.63284375,"end":184.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.72096875,"end":175.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.97471875000002,"end":199.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.78034375000001,"end":201.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.94409375,"end":207.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.62721875000003,"end":257.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.85409375,"end":214.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.76221875000002,"end":234.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.12471875000003,"end":237.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.10034375000004,"end":261.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.64409375,"end":266.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.97659375,"end":276.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.56159375000004,"end":313.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.56409375000004,"end":332.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.11346875000004,"end":360.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.83534375000005,"end":416.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.33721875000003,"end":389.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.02909375,"end":417.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.53534375000004,"end":420.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.46721875000003,"end":489.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.39971875000003,"end":475.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.55159375000005,"end":475.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.56846875,"end":475.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.50284375,"end":503.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.17596875000004,"end":525.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.23159375,"end":535.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.31846875,"end":561.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.79971875,"end":574.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.2703437499999,"end":635.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.71471875,"end":593.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.8728437500001,"end":643.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.4834687499999,"end":641.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.5378437500001,"end":681.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.58846875,"end":645.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEA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picture然後我覺得是見仁見智啦比如說像這七年來臺灣的這個探用使用率增加那"},{"start":49.778,"end":68.622,"text":"自然天然氣增加以整個經濟成長或百分比不同的角度看這個東西會有不同的解答我抱著投影還沒出來我知道外交部這次有安排一些會議比如說"},{"start":75.134,"end":103.098,"text":"在就是說一些會議那像這裡頭有些照片是跟外交部這邊立法院安排的那有一些是我自己私人的一些會議那像比如說在右上方這位跟Michael Sharon就是我FB有PO的這個綠色金融大使我本來是在藍區跟他見面可是因為臨時我們沒有辦法立法委員全部四位都沒辦法進去嘛所以我就是在外面的這個"},{"start":103.778,"end":123.635,"text":"公共空間跟他喝杯咖啡然後把我本來在藍區想跟他討論的事情在外面討論那他之前在聯合國從開發計畫的UNDP裡頭是擔任永續金融中心的這個高級顧問在2016年到2019年期間他也擔任G20的永續金融研究小組的主席"},{"start":127.732,"end":147.777,"text":"同時在2016年的時候幫中國銀行在英國的證交所發他們第一個Green Bond經驗非常豐富他有很多一些Private Public Partnership的一些經驗接下來我有一個影片跟大家快速的分享一下"},{"start":156.493,"end":182.331,"text":"一些建築物等等的大家可以看到就說像這COP的現場比較明顯的一些建築物等等的我們就被交代要非常低調要到大家回台北的時候才能PO比較辨識度高的COP地標在這邊反而用民間的企業或是基金會進來相對來講算榮譽"},{"start":198.038,"end":201.541,"text":"這是在阿布達底的部分可是其他那些都在COP"},{"start":205.009,"end":230.658,"text":"今天就看到了Fusion跟Fission的公司Fusion是台美合作的公司叫做Alpha Ring它是在Monterey, California跟在台北這邊合作的公司Fusion呢是唯一真的是Zero Waste的部分因為其實我現在講很多綠能的像Solar跟Wind的話它事實上還是有一些Treatment Problems這個部分但還是在研究當中能不能真的是"},{"start":235.079,"end":257.224,"text":"現場的車子都是電動車不同的國家也有他們一些各國管那裡頭還有分藍區跟綠區藍區的話就是各國領袖跟智庫的人員可以參加一般在做一些key decision maker綠區的話呢就是很多的一些新創跟綠能相關的產業或是一些綠色金融很好的一些典範呢也在這邊跟大家可以分享"},{"start":260.206,"end":275.679,"text":"所以我想展示就是說其實在臺灣的這個外交困境當中呢是非常艱難的然後想要解釋下一個我也麻煩你就是說其實事實上呢我其實有被邀請兩場在所謂的Parliamentary Pavilion"},{"start":276.71,"end":292.528,"text":"上午的時候跟週二下午的時候都有作為與談人可是因為就是沒有最後拿到藍區的這個證件呢我也沒有辦法進去就相當的可惜那之後呢其實星期四的時候因為我們去COP那COP是星期四剛好休會"},{"start":293.289,"end":313.427,"text":"所以我就自己跑跨了邊界去了阿布達比然後這時候也想跟兩位分享就是說其實我是被邀請也是去做與談人那這次有辦法進去因為我是用民間的名義進去的這是國際智庫米爾肯研究院然後中間這位是Mike Milken本人"},{"start":316.09,"end":327.06,"text":"第五屆中東及非洲國家開放會關心未來再生能源用金融帶動產業轉型Milken專注四個主軸教育、健康、新創企業、金融"},{"start":336.759,"end":356.1,"text":"同時我要提到其實這次過去阿布達比邊界的時候你也發現到說阿布達比現在是有全世界最大的太陽能板的面積它是跟中國做合作的那這也代表就是說石油的國家它可以重新再做能源轉型"},{"start":358.522,"end":378.777,"text":"同時它現在空間大、太陽多、風也多它其實要整個做這個轉型是非常有利基點的那這也呼應就是說其實我覺得臺灣必須要勇敢面對就是說如果真的我們要變成一個能源堅韌的國家的話我們其實選擇是不多的因為我們是一個小島國"},{"start":379.758,"end":403.706,"text":"然後我們也沒有很多的天然的資源不像中東的話連這次我們私下跟一些歐洲的國家的議員交流的話像盧森堡他們覺得他們不支持核能可是他們是跟邊界的比利時買核能啊對不對那這些國家邊界他們雖然不支持核能不簽署這些合約不代表說他們沒有在用核能的電"},{"start":404.246,"end":420.783,"text":"可是臺灣就是一個鎖國我們要在這個情況之下怎麼樣去突破這個困境我覺得不考慮啟動核能的話是不務實的那再來就是想要分享就是說下一位麻煩William"},{"start":421.776,"end":436.156,"text":"就是說我們實際上面對外交的這個困境那這個是我從這個CSIS一個智庫它2020年的報告後面的這個截圖就是這列出所有現在臺灣撤出聯合國之後所有的"},{"start":436.496,"end":441.717,"text":"全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作"},{"start":462.503,"end":489.725,"text":"國家人口250萬人是全世界的0.3人口的面積而已所以是台灣在這個情況之下我們要什麼樣的立場不只是用政府機關因為這個原因這次我們四個委員都沒有辦法進藍區的場部長進你也沒辦法進去嘛 對不對那我們要怎麼樣能發揮其他我看到這些NGO的一些membership為什麼我突然講到這個Asian Development Bank就是亞洲開發銀行呢就接下來想要分享就是說"},{"start":490.546,"end":507.004,"text":"我個人的看法是如果今天台灣必須要走到淨零碳排的話我們的金融產業必須要跟國際接軌然後呢我們的所有的官方的金融機構必須官民一把尺才能讓我們跟國際接軌同時能淨零碳排淨零轉型"},{"start":507.885,"end":534.087,"text":"我們的金融產業必須要走到國際化那你可以看就是說這次像COP有這個所謂的Loss and Damage Fund那這Loss and Damage Fund裡頭呢其實就是所謂的對我而言是一個叫做氣候二軌的這個氣候金融的二軌外交那譬如說這個像譬如說氣候金融投資主權基金等等的這都是可以互相彼此投資的不然您先領洗我知道對去看省預算好謝謝對那"},{"start":536.937,"end":557.566,"text":"比如說這次我有跟這個諾魯諾魯我們一個邦交國做交流諾魯他的國家還比帛琉更小我問他說你們現在的這個淨零的方向是如何你們現在能源用的怎麼樣他說他們是用Diesel就用柴油為主他說我們只要裝兩個區塊我們島上只要裝兩個區塊的太陽能板我馬上50%就可以go clean那我說那請問一下你的這個"},{"start":564.829,"end":579.697,"text":"你這個solar panel誰幫你裝他說中國幫他裝的然後同時他說最近要蓋個碼頭是中國幫他做的那我說欸納魯你不是我們台灣的邦交國嗎那你是邦交國為什麼這個案子是給這個中國做他說中國就是Asian Development Bank去做這個談判的"},{"start":581.138,"end":603.175,"text":"所以我的意思就是說其實透過這個ADB亞洲開發銀行這是我們台灣是full membership的我們在這一場這樣這部分打輸的話我覺得是相當的可惜的而且要提到說您看您外交部現在這個報告上面也有講就是說你們外交部的報告對COP說有充分發揮外交的效益我會覺得是說以提供你們參考"},{"start":604.036,"end":624.17,"text":"向很多國家澳洲、西班牙、意大利跟加拿大他們的MOFA跟MOE是併在一起的他們的名字叫做Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade我真的非常的覺得是個非常重要的議題所以可以呼應說我們的外交跟經濟是不是可以一起並肩作戰而這樣子的話才不會讓我們的這個邦交國像納魯"},{"start":625.811,"end":628.693,"text":"主要主要主要主要主要主要主要"},{"start":644.825,"end":659.097,"text":"中國廠商為什麼會得標?事實上這邊也講到Kathy其實中國廠商他在全世界各地都用低價的方式去競標那他有背後有大量的政府或其他的補貼所以很多的國家都在抱怨說這些投標機制可能要做修改"},{"start":659.797,"end":681.339,"text":"只是跟委員補充,ATB台灣當然會非常積極的運用我們是一個Full Membership的身份來充分的發揮我們也用很多機制來鼓勵我們的業者去參加ATB的標案那只是說在剛才您提到這個特定的標案上面,最終是中國的企業得標ATB是甲方,他來招標,然後得標的企業是中國,不是中國在協助農業"},{"start":682.981,"end":696.658,"text":"跟外交部跟我們行政單位是講說要作戰的時候尤其我們這麼多委員出現我們是應該是走大門走正路的我知道我們台灣的外交處境是非常有困境的這次我們這樣子去"},{"start":698.76,"end":719.703,"text":"我覺得我很對不起納稅人我覺得我沒有發揮到我們該發揮到的效應如果真的要做立院的外交的話我們等立法院的院長請這些國際的人員來就好了舉例講好幾個我遇到這些跟我們後來吃飯、找飯的人他們的牌子都寫到Party Overflow我還在玩牌子上也寫到Party Overflow這是什麼意思"},{"start":720.123,"end":739.332,"text":"PARTY不是開PARTY的PARTY那PARTY是一個團體的意思PARTY OVERFLOW那些委員告訴我是說是不能發言的委員才跟我們來吃早飯在飯店外面跟我們吃早飯的這個情況在COP28以前一直存在我們會持續跟立法院一起來努力這一次有一些特殊狀況我相信委員很清楚有FULL MEMBERSHIP剛剛那些組織我們應該積極地把相關的窗口不管是經濟部、財政部或什麼的相關剛剛那些"},{"start":747.996,"end":770.98,"text":"全體組織的做上對口來發揮真正的功能然後一些比較我們不是正式的會員的就要走正的路像這次這些NPO全部都是簽認騰一個中國的啊我們非常感謝我們立法院在國會外交的協助一起推動我們當然希望所有人都可以走大門走正路"},{"start":771.44,"end":778.067,"text":"當時我在現場的時候我們拿到我們之前你給我們的證件要進去的時候當場就有聯合國人在我現場跟我講我聽到了就跟你們講說you betrayed my trust, this is not how it's supposed to be, you shouldn't be here"},{"start":790.948,"end":810.436,"text":"委員其實在委員很清楚您出發前我們兩次有跟您溝通今年情況比較特殊一點那我相信您也知道特殊的地方是什麼地方沒有什麼特殊的地方所以我們大家要一起努力你們要的話就是要用正當的方式跟國際上做交流否則這樣你會讓所有想幫助我們都很難做的事情謝謝你"},{"start":811.716,"end":815.898,"text":"然後最後不好意思我要講的最後一頁就是不好意思主席就是那個關於這個這個是環境部的部分環境部的話就是說我想要想要追就是說因為不好意思我之前跟部長是追過就是這個10年的這個環境部的這個途徑藍圖"},{"start":830.103,"end":841.814,"text":"因為其實我之前多次也呼籲就是說碳費、碳稅、碳底換的交易、碳交放的平台這四種到底要陸續怎麼樣有些配套措施因為這不只是對產業還有這個臺灣這個金融接軌金融這個"},{"start":846.378,"end":866.742,"text":"碳排金融接軌的國際性是非常重要的因為很多產業業界都不了解就是說碳權到底是要不要買然後要買多少然後未來這東西可能成為金融商品然後有沒有一些其他碳定價的機制在那產業要轉型的話是需要很多年的時間不能一次馬上到位"},{"start":867.102,"end":881.251,"text":"那如果整個架構沒有提出來的話這樣子產業很難做一些中長期的規劃所以想了解說你們什麼時候可以做出一個十年的路徑圖上次我跟部長問過那看看市長今天有什麼樣的想法可以給我承諾嗎什麼時候可以做出來跟委員報告我們之前這個有跟也是委員有提到說我們應該可以在一個"},{"start":892.58,"end":916.799,"text":"三個月內在三個月內因為最主要還是要看政府這一段我們要做中長期的規劃我們先在目前是先以碳價就是這個收碳費為主那這個三個月內我們做的規劃確實會依委員的指示就是在十年內所以你是說只有三個月能做碳費沒有沒有我說三個月內我們會把十年的路徑圖跟委員做報告就是整體的好再有時間出來謝謝"},{"start":920.722,"end":921.95,"text":"謝謝吳委員下一位陳穎委員"}]}},{"id":"149029","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149029","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c38970a51ebf59a7c3a8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a0322ee73133325f985115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張育美","委員發言時間":"10:45:31 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28在本月12日落幕，對不對？本次會議六大宣言中，健康議題就占了2項，包括氣候與健康宣言，還有氣候健康資金，象徵著健康在氣候變遷的討論中，從過去的配角，躍升為氣候行動的核心，所以期許我們的政府可以從綠色醫療和極端氣候下的健康威脅兩個面向來著手，建立對氣候變遷具有高度韌性的醫療衛生系統，醫療韌性是什麼呢？就是要建立高度醫療韌性的因應對策及醫療衛生系統，為國內今後創造更大的生活福祉，請問部長和次長對嗎？"],["周次長志浩：對。"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["張委員育美：請關心綠色醫療。"],["周次長志浩：是。"],["張委員育美：謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝張委員。"],["主席（張委員育美代）：下一位請吳欣盈委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0603437500000001,"end":2.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.73096875,"end":3.5072187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.84471875,"end":4.4353437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.570343750000001,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.82284375,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.640968750000003,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.037218750000001,"end":14.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.965343750000002,"end":22.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.930343750000002,"end":52.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.81596875,"end":63.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.70034375,"end":82.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.81971875,"end":86.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.86971875,"end":92.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.96159375,"end":105.73596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.37721875000001,"end":109.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.07284375,"end":114.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.10159375,"end":122.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.83034375000001,"end":135.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.11096875,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.73909375,"end":144.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.56534375,"end":144.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.81409375,"end":151.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.03721875000002,"end":149.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.97346875000002,"end":154.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.57221875000002,"end":156.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.96846875,"end":160.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.07346875000002,"end":163.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.30909375000002,"end":166.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.04721875,"end":166.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.19471875000002,"end":167.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.21159375000002,"end":169.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.85659375,"end":171.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.61596875,"end":174.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.58596875,"end":178.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.72034375,"end":188.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.82096875000002,"end":182.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.14971875,"end":185.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.26346875000002,"end":186.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.17846875,"end":194.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.25784375,"end":202.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.48846875,"end":205.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.52221875,"end":209.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.03659375,"end":207.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.60159375,"end":229.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.42534375000002,"end":248.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.56159375000001,"end":258.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.57284375,"end":263.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.29346875000005,"end":267.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.82034375,"end":290.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.87159375000005,"end":298.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.27534375000005,"end":299.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.47346875,"end":307.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.08846875,"end":312.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.75846875,"end":319.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.64346875,"end":320.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.65596875,"end":322.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.17034375000003,"end":327.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.41846875000005,"end":330.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.00034375,"end":332.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":332.99159375000005,"end":334.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","st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COP28"},{"start":19,"end":39.321,"text":"首度將健康納入討論議程根據世界衛生組織估計由於氣候變遷導致空汙、高溫以及疾病的傳播加劇每年有1.9億人的生命健康安全受到衝擊呼籲各國來加速加強醫療體系的"},{"start":42.864,"end":60.795,"text":"應對資源 資源就是說投入經費本次大會有124個國家簽署氣候與健康宣言政府還有開放銀行、慈善機構等等共同承諾投資投入10億美金來對抗氣候變遷帶來的健康危機"},{"start":63.817,"end":76.169,"text":"其中,全球基金提供3億美元,路克斐勒基金也打算投入1億美元。還有,主辦國阿拉伯聯合大公國和數家慈善機構預計投入7.7億美元,用於因升溫惡化的熱帶疾病。"},{"start":86.94,"end":105.377,"text":"大公國內比較熱嘛所以他要投入這個升溫惡化帶來的熱帶疾病那我們回頭來檢視我們國內這幾年來台灣高溫report記錄隨之而來的熱傷害還有高溫疾病越來越多第一線醫師反映啊"},{"start":106.591,"end":133.446,"text":"氣候變遷導致疾病傳染途徑增加在原本是以前南部盛行的登革熱這個已逐漸到全臺地區而且出現了兩萬個這個病例有史以來最多的病例那臺灣民眾也深受空氣污染威脅我們必須強化公衛體系的資源所以首先請教環境部長"},{"start":136.949,"end":144.764,"text":"在這個明年開增碳費對不對那開增碳費使用在哪方面哪些面向上"},{"start":146.008,"end":169.336,"text":"氣候變遷因應法裏面有如列13項啦我非常支持剛剛張偉英影片裏面有提到事實上利用碳費也來支持整個健康方法的有嗎?我們的有嗎?國內的有支持健康公共衛生體系嗎?呃相關的一個有沒有?對啊這些開增碳費之後有沒有?"},{"start":172.18,"end":188.567,"text":"調適方面的用途是可以但是我們再來仔細研究一下我個人覺得只要碳費其中可以用在跟健康相關的或者利用環境部其他的基金事實上是可以目前沒有對不對"},{"start":190.302,"end":209.088,"text":"公委員報告目前是用於溫室氣體減量還有氣候變遷調適所以沒有公共衛生嘛醫療公共衛生這個碳費沒有放在那邊如果沒有就跟行政院爭取啊就是沒有嘛對不對我們來爭取看看未來有沒有可能把它納入"},{"start":209.699,"end":228.786,"text":"所以就是要爭取因為我覺得我們跟國際離得很遠並沒有把健康這個綠色健康醫療放進去所以碳費沒有放在醫療公共衛生上面所以請跟行政院爭取然後我再提醒本次大會"},{"start":231.155,"end":248.12,"text":"氣候與健康宣言這本次的大會那這個我提醒那另外一個我關心的面向就是醫療產業減碳的議題我們在去年3月公布的臺灣2050年淨零碳排路徑以及策略的總說明"},{"start":249.8,"end":267.309,"text":"中央社會福利及衛生福利部長、外交部、經濟部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員"},{"start":270.51,"end":296.605,"text":"今天只有我請衛福部出席對不對只有我邀請你上來所以我要問衛福部那衛福部薛部長有提到說對於淨零碳排更直言說上一次我們問他的時候他說非操之在我的因素太多了你說綠色醫療你衛福部的角色說非操之在我的這個因素太多那站在醫療的綠色醫療關口上衛福部明年度值編列多少你知道嗎2000萬以內1965萬"},{"start":299.346,"end":327.364,"text":"所以這個六五萬的預算辦理什麼減碳教育所以在醫療還沒減碳轉型之前竟然好像代替了教育部在教育做減碳教育你是教育部在做減碳教育轉型所以請問次長在辦理減碳教育後你把一千九百六十萬在辦減碳教育在教育之後"},{"start":329.205,"end":356.077,"text":"醫療產業在近鄰路上能夠得到什麼的協助呢?公委員報告一下齁這裡面的教育其實應該是包含所謂的教育輔導教育什麼?教育以及輔導對啦,就是代替教育部的事情在教育嘛你並沒有爭取來做公共衛生的防治啊也不只是這樣綠色公共衛生也不只是這樣齁我們對於說醫院的時候他應該要怎麼做才對這裡面的檢探教育怎麼做對,這對檢探推廣觀念"},{"start":358.418,"end":386.946,"text":"對他第一個觀念要改變那這樣子他第一個就是第一個他成本降低嘛那第二個的話那他本身的對這個裡面的檢探的確是環境是有貢獻的那第一個就是說這裡面的輔導要讓他知道那尤其是他醫院裡面他哪些地方是他可以著手的那這裡面是基本上是有做一些的盤點的事項那經由我們請人然後到醫院裡面進行這輔導的時候那這方面是可以做一些事情的那當然部長所提到的有很多的地方不見得"},{"start":387.546,"end":415.689,"text":"以下就能夠做得到的地方那當然是包含我們的上下游採購整個涉及到社會產業的這部分層面的部分那這部分的話需要我們另外在後面後續在 跨部會的對另外再需要其他不管還當然也包含跨部會那逐步的往這方面來推動所以我建議衛福部你知道在2030前子呢我們我們有多少預算嗎在在進行攤牌的預算9000億啊所以衛福部應該要去爭取啊做綠色醫療啊"},{"start":417.15,"end":434.94,"text":"對沒有錯那這部分的確是要讓不能不能像部長說的說這個不可非可操之的因素太多不能這樣講應該是我們要主動involve進去啊是循序漸進嘛我們能做的我們趕快先做我們不能做的那跨部會我們一起來看看是怎麼樣逐步的來推動"},{"start":436.161,"end":452.319,"text":"市長我提醒你為什麼因為醫療減碳方式太多了舉個例子我曾舉例子說噴一罐氣喘的噴劑呢這個碳排量大概等於汽車跑300公里做改成粉狀粉狀的話馬上降到4公里"},{"start":453.4,"end":476.742,"text":"馬上這個汽車跑四公里的這個排放量就夠所以呢這個醫療跟藥物的減量其實是非常是大有可為所以我們該花很多時間我們要來重視這個所以這個衛福部環保部呢都是在政策面向要給予醫療院所足夠的誘因誘因就是說告訴他們這樣做能夠帶來大家好"},{"start":477.603,"end":506.035,"text":"對不對要自主管理說對不對一方面讓他知道那一方面如果這部分可以的話那盡量提供他有營往這方面來走那請問你將來這個醫院如何進行探排查探盤查我們會委託或委託相關的團體然後逐漸進去來協助他來做這方面的盤查那這個我知道你有提到這個近鄰探排的指引了對不對但是沒有講到那個時間那個期程吧要多久內"},{"start":507.035,"end":531.5,"text":"我們先了解了之後再做排程因為這剛開始現在要再進行的時候先了解這樣排這個排程比較務實有沒有預計大概多久內有多島家醫院要達到探排查因為呢要不要從醫學中心開始啊等等我們先輔導10家然後看看他裡面的情形10家大概是先從醫學中心開始嘛對不對對從比較大的這個醫院開始所以呢表示我們衛福部"},{"start":536.061,"end":556.964,"text":"有注意到齁那這個COP28在12月落幕嘛對不對12日落幕本次會議六大宣言中健康議題就佔了兩項氣候與健康宣言我講議題啦齁還有氣候健康資金象徵著健康在氣候變化討論中從過去的配角"},{"start":557.805,"end":576.375,"text":"要身為氣候行動的核心所以期許我們的政府可以從綠色醫療和極端氣候下的健康威脅兩個面向來著手建立對氣候變遷具有高度韌性的醫療衛生系統醫療韌性是什麼呢就因應對策"},{"start":580.837,"end":593.249,"text":"要建立高度的醫療韌性的對策來建立醫療衛生系統在為我們國內的今後創造更大的生活福祉這樣兩位部長、部長、次長對嗎?對!謝謝!請關心綠色醫療!謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"149028","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149028","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3fd036c7592aeb8bca8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a032256ce73f1065489d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐志榮","委員發言時間":"10:35:30 - 10:45:24","影片長度":"00:09:54","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":594,"end_time":"2023-12-14T10:45:24+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T10:35:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":782,"blocks":[["徐委員志榮：（10時35分）謝謝主席，拜託請薛部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["徐委員志榮：部長好。"],["薛部長富盛：許委員好。"],["徐委員志榮：部長跟召委一行，COP28大家辛苦了啦！"],["薛部長富盛：不會、不會，應當的。"],["徐委員志榮：我們剛落幕的COP28，其中今年的會議主題目標就是要盤點巴黎協定要求的工業革命前的基準，全球平均升溫控制在2度C以內，控制氣溫上升幅度在1.5度C為上限。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["徐委員志榮：部長，雖然我們不是會員國，您覺得我們的減碳速度有達到巴黎協定全球盤點的要求了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：目前看起來，事實上臺灣表現應該是相當的好，特別是包括這次大會通過的一個決議裡面，再生能源在2030年規劃希望能夠有三倍，能源效益……"],["徐委員志榮：我大概也有看到您的說明，我們都優於其他國家的9%，我們好像都有百分之二十幾。"],["薛部長富盛：是，當然還能繼續努力。"],["徐委員志榮：所以你說三倍不是什麼問題。一樣的三倍，在報紙裡面，當然不是結論，早上講的就是倡議核能新方向，美陸等20多國呼籲全球核電產能在2050年提高三倍。當然部長您也有回應了，這個標題是說核廢料不解決，核能就是假議題。您講了三個理由……"],["薛部長富盛：還有核能安全……"],["徐委員志榮：其實不是核廢料不解決，是說核廢料不能解決，這是媒體下的標題，您說的三點是什麼？安全……"],["薛部長富盛：是，還有核廢料解決以及全民共識。"],["徐委員志榮：那它又幫你寫錯了，它這個三點理由是寫安全性、核廢料處理以及核廢存放地點的共識。"],["薛部長富盛：是，那個可能寫錯了，第二點跟第三點……"],["徐委員志榮：我一直看這個第三點，就是包含在第二點嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["徐委員志榮：您講的比較正確，還是要全民的共識，我相信全民應該會有共識，在那個前提之下。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["徐委員志榮：那不禁又讓我想到，我們現在政府的政策不是在講2025非核家園？"],["薛部長富盛：跟徐委員報告，2025即使我們沒有談到非核家園，本身我們也就是沒有核能電廠的，因為現在核二、核三到2025年本來也就是要phase out，就是要除役了。"],["徐委員志榮：等於意思是說，到2025年我們核能發電都歸零了？"],["薛部長富盛：大概歸零了，因為現在你要再重新啟動也來不及了，時間也過了。"],["徐委員志榮：延役呢？"],["薛部長富盛：延役的時間，它有一定的程序，所以也已經過了。"],["徐委員志榮：那重點來了，是不是要經濟部的長官回答？那到時候我們的電夠嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：曾次長要回答嗎？"],["徐委員志榮：本來我們的百分比是天然氣50%、火力30%、綠能20%，早上聽了一下，好像才10%左右，是不是？"],["曾次長文生：哪一個？"],["薛部長富盛：再生能源。"],["曾次長文生：不會，再生能源是今年就超過10%了。"],["徐委員志榮：我們目標是要20%，是不是？"],["曾次長文生：我們到2026年就可以達到20%。"],["徐委員志榮：就可以達到20%？"],["曾次長文生：是的。"],["徐委員志榮：這樣可以完全取代核能發電廠通通停掉嗎？"],["曾次長文生：核能去年8%，今年大概剩5%。它原來的狀況就是核1、2、3大概400億度。"],["徐委員志榮：簡單的講，2025年的12月底，也不是說1月初，簡單講應該講年末啦！2025年的年底核能發電通通要停掉，然後臺灣的電力不會不夠。"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，核三的2號機除役的時間是2025年5月，不是年底，是5月就會除役了。"],["徐委員志榮：我是說最慢啦！"],["曾次長文生：好，現在整個供電的狀況，我們的估計都是足夠的，我們現在討論最主要是怎麼樣再加速減碳。"],["徐委員志榮：所以結論是2025年……"],["曾次長文生：供電是穩定的。"],["徐委員志榮：我說年底，你說5月啦！"],["曾次長文生：對。"],["徐委員志榮：5月核三停掉了以後，我們不擔心會缺電？"],["曾次長文生：我們供電是穩定的。"],["徐委員志榮：沒有問題？"],["曾次長文生：是。"],["徐委員志榮：國人民生用電、工業用電都可以確保？"],["曾次長文生：是。"],["徐委員志榮：那應該是算很好的消息。但是為什麼那些國家又要倡議，說要到2050年提高核能發電的三倍呢？就是因為核能發電有它的優點，當然，這是在部長講的前提之下，包括安全、核廢料處理等等。他們是因為核能發電一方面便宜，二方面可能碳排少，是這樣子嗎？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，第一個就是比較高的比例的倡議國家本身都有核工業，這是第一件事。第二件事情，這個事情的倡議其實是來自於，因為要在資本市場取得資金的投注遇到了困難，所以才會有這一個倡議。這個是在那個會場上我們看到報導的現實狀況。"],["徐委員志榮：好，話再講回來，雖然2025年核電都要停掉，但是畢竟核能發電總比火力發電，甚至於比天然氣發電更能夠減少碳排嘛！"],["曾次長文生：應該是這樣子講，每一個發電的優劣狀況不一樣，就全生命週期來講，它的碳排比較少。"],["徐委員志榮：一方面便宜啦！我的意思是說，在部長講的這個前提之下，我們是不是還可能會有核能發電？因為我們最終的目標還是要減少碳排嘛？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，現在……"],["徐委員志榮：所以才會說，譬如我們現在都在講要保持開放的態度，當然有關新核能技術發展，核融合等等，我記得陳院長好像也這樣講，也不是說2025年以後臺灣就絕對沒有核能發電，好像他的態度也不是這樣。"],["薛部長富盛：給徐委員報告，事實上像美國現在就積極發展核融合，因為現有在商轉的大部分都是核廢料……"],["徐委員志榮：什麼時候成熟，我們也還不知道嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：還沒有成熟。我再跟委員報告，美國原本在發展小型模組反應器（SMRs），但他在二個禮拜以前也已經決定要把那個停掉，因為成本越來越高，而且發電的效率也跟他們預期的有落差。"],["徐委員志榮：好，最後我有點想要講的是，倡議的國家都國土很寬廣。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯，他們核廢料處理沒問題。"],["徐委員志榮：我知道好像以前有張憲義的事件，其實就核廢料的處理，台電好像也跟北韓有簽約過，甚至於跟中國大陸也有touch。次長，你在搖頭是沒有這回事嗎？"],["曾次長文生：沒有簽約這件事。"],["徐委員志榮：好像文獻上，我查到的資料是有啦！至少有touch啦！我的意思是，那時候就是因為美國老大反對這樣子，所以就不了了之了。像台積電用電量這麼的大，美國國土又這麼的大，就算我們要繼續核能發電，我們核廢料沒有辦法處理的話，你美國老大又要我們台積電的電子產品，我們萬一電不夠的話，你總要幫我們處理這個核廢料吧？我大概的意思是這樣子。次長，你覺得呢？還是你覺得這是假議題，以後我們沒有核能發電的事情，所以沒有核廢料？"],["曾次長文生：這一題是這樣子，高階核廢料最終處置這個事情，跨國處理到現在國際公約是不同意這件事，這是第一個。第二個，你剛才提到跟其他國家的核廢料的減容處理，那一個事情應該是法國的部分，但是最後預算在立法院被刪除了，我想大概是這兩件事情，跟委員報告。"],["徐委員志榮：總歸一句，2025非核家園，電力可以不用擔心，大家聽起來就很安心了。最後一次的委員會，我不希望副總統候選人等一下站起來，我也很對不起他。謝謝部長、謝謝次長，謝謝主席。謝謝。"],["曾次長文生：謝謝委員。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝徐委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","請張育美委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.40221875,"end":2.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.27096875,"end":4.334093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.37596875,"end":7.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.337843750000001,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.907218750000002,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.31159375,"end":15.589718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.539093750000003,"end":16.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.137843750000002,"end":20.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.41159375,"end":27.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.13221875,"end":27.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.63846875,"end":28.094093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.27971875,"end":28.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.48221875,"end":32.768468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.49909375,"end":28.566593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.89909375,"end":35.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.53596875,"end":40.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.05846875,"end":40.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.00346875,"end":48.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.32721875,"end":54.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.29284375,"end":52.562843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.16159375,"end":58.570343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.85721875,"end":64.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.71721875,"end":78.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.58596875,"end":66.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.32784375,"end":74.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.38159375000001,"end":80.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.72284375000001,"end":95.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.96096875,"end":99.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.66096875000001,"end":102.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.73221875,"end":106.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.05221875000001,"end":108.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.52471875,"end":110.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.90846875000001,"end":114.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.0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拜託請薛部長有請薛部長部長好好 徐文豪部長跟召委一行這個COP28大家辛苦了啦不會不會 應當的"},{"start":18.168,"end":32.355,"text":"我們剛落幕的這個COP28其中今年的會議主題就是目標就是要盤點巴黎協定要求的那個工業革命前的那個基準全球平均升溫控制在"},{"start":34.196,"end":53.502,"text":"兩度C以內控制氣溫上升幅度在1.5度C為上限部長您覺得我們的減碳速度有達到雖然我們不是肺炎國有達到我們巴黎協定全球判定的要求了嗎目前看起來事實上臺灣表現應該是相當的好了特別是包括"},{"start":54.482,"end":72.625,"text":"這次大會通過的一個結議裡面再生能源在2030年規劃希望能夠有三倍能源效益那個我大概也有看到您的說明我們都優移其他國家的9%我們好像都有20幾%嘛所以你說的那個三倍不是什麼問題啦一樣的三倍齁在這個報紙裡面"},{"start":81.872,"end":105.818,"text":"當然不是結論早上講的就是倡議倡議核能新方向美陸等二十多國富裕全球核電產能在2050年提高三倍當然部長您也有回應這個標題是說核廢料不解決核能就是假議題您講的三個那個"},{"start":107.716,"end":109.918,"text":"還有核能安全及全民共識"},{"start":128.902,"end":153.763,"text":"它這個三點理由它是寫安全性、核廢料處理以及核廢存放地點的共識所以我一直看這個第三點就是包含在第二點嘛您講的是比較正確啦還是要全民的共識我相信全民應該會有共識啦在那個前提之下"},{"start":155.779,"end":159.726,"text":"那不禁又讓我想到說我們現在政府的政策不是在講2025非核家園"},{"start":164.288,"end":191.813,"text":"給習委員報告齁2025即使我們沒有談到火候加減本身我們也就是沒有核能電廠了因為現在核二核三到2025本來也就是要Face out就是要服役了意思就是說到2025我們核能發電都歸零了大概歸零了因為現在你要再重新啟動也來不及了研議呢時間也過了研議的時間它有一定的程序所以已經也過了嘛"},{"start":192.349,"end":198.095,"text":"那重點來了,是不是要經濟部的長官回答?那到時候我們再電過嗎?本來我們的%數是天然氣50、火力30、力能20,早上聽了一下好像"},{"start":216.758,"end":239.295,"text":"才10%左右是不是哪一個?再生能源沒有不會再生能源是今年就超過10%的我們目標是要20%是不是?我們到2026年就可以達到20%就可以達到20%?是的這樣可以完全期待那個核能發電廠統統停掉嗎?核能去年8%今年大概剩5%"},{"start":244.636,"end":268.536,"text":"那它原來的狀況就是核一二三大概四百億度簡單的講2025年核能發電2025年的時候月底啦也不是說一月初啦簡單講是應該講年末啦2025年的年底核能發電通通要停掉然後我們台灣的電力不配不夠"},{"start":269.639,"end":288.692,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是說河山的二號機除役的時間是2025年的五月不是年底啦是五月就會除役我是說最慢啦好那它的狀況是現在的狀況就是整個供電的狀況我們的估計就是都是足夠的我們先來討論最主要是怎麼樣再加速減碳"},{"start":290.785,"end":304.514,"text":"所以結論是說2025我說年底啦你說5月啦5月核酸就停掉了以後我們不擔心會切電我們供電是穩定的是的沒有問題是國人"},{"start":306.462,"end":327.213,"text":"民生用電、工業用電都可以確保那應該是算很好的消息但是為什麼那些國家他又要倡議說要到2050年提高分農發電三倍呢當然就是因為分農發電是比較"},{"start":331.178,"end":344.516,"text":"部長的前提之下,安全、火廢料處理等等,是核能發電一方面便宜,二方面可能碳排少"},{"start":345.574,"end":370.815,"text":"是這樣子嗎跟委員報告第一個就是比較高的比例他們本身都有合工業就倡議倡議的國家本身他們有合工業這是第一件事第二個件事情就是這個事情的倡議其實是來自於就是要在資本市場取得資金的投注其實遇到了困難所以才會有這個倡議我想說這個是在那個會場上我們看到報導的現實狀況"},{"start":372.276,"end":390.227,"text":"那話再講回來,雖然2025非核、核電都停掉,但是畢竟核能發電總比火力發電甚至於比天然氣發電更能夠減少碳排"},{"start":391.951,"end":416.459,"text":"應該是這樣子講就是說每一個發電它的優劣狀況不一樣就是就全生命週期來講一方面便宜啦那我的意思是說在部長講的這個前提之下我們是不是還可能還有昏龍發電因為我們最終的目標還是要減少碳排嘛跟委員報告所以才會說"},{"start":419.605,"end":437.663,"text":"譬如我們現在都在講說保持開放的態度當然有關新恆隆技術發展什麼融如何我記得好像沈院長好像也這樣講也不是說2025以後就絕對台灣沒有恆隆發展好像他的態度也不是這樣的"},{"start":439.232,"end":465.01,"text":"給習委員報告事實上像美國現在就積極發展核融合因為現有的大部分在商場的大部分都是什麼時候成熟我們也還不知道還沒有成熟那我再跟委員報告一下美國原本在發展叫做小型模組反應器SMR事實上它在兩個禮拜以前也已經決定要把那個停掉因為成本越來越高"},{"start":465.891,"end":492.999,"text":"而且發電的整個效力也跟他們預期的事實上是有落差最後我有點想要講的是說那個參與的國家都國土很寬廣是沒錯他們核廢料處理沒問題我知道好像以前有那個張憲毅的事件其實台電好像也有跟北韓有簽約過就核廢料的處理甚至於跟中國大陸也有太極市長你在搖頭是沒有這回事嗎"},{"start":496.294,"end":516.75,"text":"好像文獻上我是查到資料是有啦至少有touch我的意思是說那個美國老大你就是那時候就是因為他反對嘛反對這樣子所以就不了了之嘛那我的意思是說像台積電用電量這麼的大那你美國國土又這麼的大"},{"start":517.853,"end":534.625,"text":"就是算我們要繼續核能發電的話我們核廢料沒有辦法處理的話你美國老大你又要我們台積電的這個電子產品我們萬一電不夠的話你總要幫我們處理這個核廢料我大概的意思是這樣子不知道您覺得呢"},{"start":540.431,"end":561.298,"text":"這是假議題以後我們沒有活動發展的事情所以沒有核廢料這一題是這樣子就是說高階核廢料最終處置這個事情跨國處理到現在國際公約是不同意這件事這是第一個第二個是你剛才提到就是說跟其他國家就是核廢料的減容處理那個事情應該是在上上屆"},{"start":564.679,"end":586.184,"text":"市長這樣子啦 總歸宜記啦2025非核加嚴 電力可以不用擔心 這個我們聽起來大家就很安心了啦最後一次的委員會 我也不希望副總統霍簡仁等一下站起來啦 我也很對不起他啦好 謝謝部長 謝謝市長 謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":591.425,"end":591.726,"text":"請張美璋委員"}]}},{"id":"149027","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149027","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3c7d29786071ef702a8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a03223f1cde1601a035825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳椒華","委員發言時間":"10:28:35 - 10:35:17","影片長度":"00:06:42","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":402,"end_time":"2023-12-14T10:35:17+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T10:28:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":727,"blocks":[["陳委員椒華：（10時28分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員好。"],["陳委員椒華：部長好。部長，我們知道#MeToo事件之後，本席也有針對前環保署督察總隊李隊長的這個部分提出要求，我們要調查嘛！調查報告完成了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：不但完成，也經過考績會開會通過了……"],["陳委員椒華：院長也看過了？"],["薛部長富盛：行政程序我已經批了，我們大概在最近應該會對外公布。"],["陳委員椒華：前天行政院秘書長說院長也看過了，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：都看過了，所以應該會去公布。"],["陳委員椒華：所以環境部什麼時候要公布呢？"],["薛部長富盛：只要院長批示過應該就會公布了，因為我已經有批了，所以……"],["陳委員椒華：這個禮拜可以公布嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：應該是可以吧。"],["陳委員椒華：可以嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：對，因為這個都公開了，而且紀錄都很清楚，也做了懲處了。"],["陳委員椒華：好，那就請環境部公布。聽說是在等部長回來裁示，那就請……"],["薛部長富盛：我記得我回來，我馬上就批了。"],["陳委員椒華：那請儘速公布，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：是，會的。"],["陳委員椒華：好。再來本席也關心針對山坡地不當開發的問題，這是82年通過的環評，現在他有大規模的變更，只有備查，雖然是新竹縣政府在處理的，不過82年當年定稿的是環保署，雖是前環保署的環評作業，但到現在定稿本都沒有上網，請問什麼時候可以上網呢？本席已經追很久了。"],["薛部長富盛：這一點我請我們環保司的劉司長。"],["劉司長宗勇：跟陳委員報告一下，因為新竹市有給我們一個公文，第一個他手上有一份，另外一份是因為地方政府依照的山開辦法裡面也有提到環境評估報告，但那是在83年的，我們現在在確認那個版本是什麼，因為年代比較久遠，我們現在就是請他去確認。"],["陳委員椒華：對。"],["劉司長宗勇：但我們是從內政部……因為內政部的書件系統上沒有查到那個環評報告書……"],["陳委員椒華：可是當年在環保署審的，環保署應該有吧！"],["劉司長宗勇：對，我們現在就是在確認那個報告，因為它還有提到83年的那個版本，所以我們現在是請新竹縣政府確認……"],["陳委員椒華：如果有好幾個版本，我們也希望都能夠上網。"],["劉司長宗勇：對，趕快確認，我們會把它核對一下。"],["陳委員椒華：可不可以儘速？"],["劉司長宗勇：我們儘快，我們跟內政部就是在談這些文件的核對，畢竟是30年前的檔案，所以要確認一下。"],["陳委員椒華：本席也去地檢署告發了。"],["劉司長宗勇：瞭解。"],["陳委員椒華：所以也希望這個公文書能夠儘速出現，不要失蹤那麼久，謝謝。","再來針對那個……部長，我們也在杜拜一起關心氣候變遷COP28……"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員，是。"],["陳委員椒華：現在我們到杜拜也看到化石燃料的使用，整個杜拜幾乎每天的PM2.5都超過150。部長，現在就是說，我也看到我們國內空污的抵換，這個因為本席已經關心非常非常久，有十幾年了，也看到環保署要去用環保金爐、離島減量、舊車換新要來讓新的開發案可以抵換，所以我要請問部長，這個有經過公正單位的抵換機制，就是怎麼換，還有譬如說，臺北的移動污染源、臺北的金爐抵換可以用在高雄的開發嗎？這個都有審慎地評估過嗎？部長。"],["薛部長富盛：這點我可不可以請我們大氣環境司的蔡司長來回復一下比較細節的部分。"],["陳委員椒華：好。"],["蔡司長孟裕：謝謝委員。跟委員報告，剛剛委員提到了跨縣市的，這個部分是不可以抵換的，一定是在同一個空品區，所以如果是剛剛委員提到像……"],["陳委員椒華：可是司長，如果是同一個空品區的話也有問題啊！司長也非常清楚，譬如說工業區一直在增量，然後在偏鄉減量，你沒有做流行病學調查，或者是健康風險評估的時候，你會讓工業區附近民眾的風險會更高，這個是很可怕的啊！不是嗎？"],["蔡司長孟裕：跟委員報告，其實空氣是流來流去的，所以我們現在研究的情形是，整個空氣……"],["陳委員椒華：流來流去，可是整個氣流如果都停滯不流動的時候，那個污染量是很可怕的啊！你不能說在同一個空品區流來流去就可以去抵換，這是不對的，不是嗎？"],["蔡司長孟裕：跟委員報告，這個其實是研究出來的情形，在一個空品區裡面去做抵換，這個部分會得到最好的減量改善的效果。"],["陳委員椒華：我不能夠去相信這個部分，然後請部長好嗎？部長，我要請你瞭解這個部分是滿嚴重的，是不是可以給本席確認，是不是有公正單位去確認這樣子的抵換是不會影響國人健康的？你們要施行是不是可以暫緩呢？"],["薛部長富盛：我覺得這個是有必要，因為兼顧到空氣品質的控制，以及地區產業的發展。"],["陳委員椒華：但是國人健康還不如產業發展嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：可是陳委員應該知道，空氣是流通的，就如同我們臺灣每到冬季的時候，空污就特別嚴重，可是那個是境外的，又不是我們自己產生的。"],["陳委員椒華：部長，你講這一句就表示你是外行，冬天空氣不好是境外，這個真的就是你講外行話了，這個部分絕對不是你講的這樣，我在這裡也不攻擊你，我是說這個部分如果你要去抵換，你要拿出科學的、公正的確認，不會危害國人的健康，然後你再正式施行，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：OK。"],["陳委員椒華：那就請司長給本席你們怎麼去抵換、抵換的方法、細節，我們再開公聽會或者是再確認，這樣可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：可以。"],["陳委員椒華：好，那就謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員。"],["主席：謝謝，請徐志榮徐委員。","先做一個宣告，今日無臨時提案，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.886593750000001,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.763468750000001,"end":15.859718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.31534375,"end":20.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.449718750000002,"end":26.406593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.63096875,"end":21.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.90096875,"end":24.195968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.465968750000002,"end":24.719093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.65971875,"end":28.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.06034375,"end":32.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.80659375,"end":33.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.329718750000005,"end":40.041593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.83159375,"end":33.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.915968750000005,"end":34.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.03721875,"end":48.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.783468750000004,"end":45.424718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.74534375,"end":46.977218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.563468750000006,"end":49.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.525343750000005,"end":53.744093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.55909375,"end":50.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.53784375,"end":53.423468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.744093750000005,"e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就是說我們也在杜拜一起關心這個氣候變遷COP28那現在我們到杜拜也看到這個化石燃料的使用整個杜拜幾乎每天都是PM2.5都超過150"},{"start":182.503,"end":197.139,"text":"那部長現在就是說我們國內我也看到我們的空屋的抵換那這個本行因為已經關心非常非常久了十幾年了那也看到環保署要去用環保金爐離島減換救車換新要來讓新的開發案可以抵換"},{"start":204.366,"end":210.07,"text":"那我要請問部長這個有經過公正單位的這個抵換的機制就是怎麼換還有呢比如說臺北的這個移動污染源臺北的金爐抵換可以用在高雄的這個開發可以嗎我們這個都有審慎的去評估過了嗎部長"},{"start":224.492,"end":246.167,"text":"這一點我可不可以請我們大區市長來回覆一下好不好 比較細節的部分好 謝謝委員跟委員報告剛剛委員提到了跨縣市的這個部分是不可以抵換的一定是在同一個空品區所以如果是剛剛委員提到"},{"start":247.308,"end":268.545,"text":"市長如果同一個空品區也有問題啊市長也非常清楚比如說工業區一直在增量然後在偏鄉減量然後你沒有做這個流行病學調查或者是健康風險評估的時候你會讓工業區附近的民眾的這個風險會更高啊這個是很可怕的啊"},{"start":269.085,"end":280.078,"text":"不是嗎跟委員報告其實空氣是流來流去的所以整個我們現在研究的情形是整個空氣流來流去可是那個整個氣流如果都"},{"start":284.242,"end":302.223,"text":"都停滯不流動的時候那個污染量是很可怕的啊那你不能說流來流去好像就同一個空品區就可以去抵換這是不對的不是嗎跟委員報告這個其實是研究出來的情形在一個空品區裡面去做抵換"},{"start":303.104,"end":327.922,"text":"那這個部分會得到最好的一個減量跟改善的效果我不能夠去相信這個部分請部長好不好部長我要請你了解這個部分是蠻嚴重那是不是可以給本席這個確認是不是有公正單位去確認這樣子的底換是不會影響國人健康的那你們要施行是不是可以暫緩呢"},{"start":329.86,"end":354.972,"text":"我覺得這個是有必要因為兼顧到空氣品質的控制以及地區產業的一個發展但是國人健康比產業發展還要不如產業發展嗎就是說空氣是流通就如我們台灣每到冬季的時候空汙就特別嚴重可是那個是境外的啊"},{"start":355.532,"end":380.883,"text":"又不是我們自己產生的部長你講這一句就是表示你是外行空氣空氣冬天空氣不好是境外你這個真的就是你外行化了這個部分絕對不是你講的這樣我在這裡也不攻擊你我是說這個部分你要去底換你要拿出科學的、公正的確認不會危害國人健康"},{"start":381.483,"end":382.943,"text":"然後你再正式施行"}]}},{"id":"149026","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149026","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c389b6618603acd76ca8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a0322ec2d40718126b8875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:19:23 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正正在進行當中所以以前只有書審而已對 只有書審那你現在應該要實際到現場去看它是不是有這樣的技術啊沒錯 未來我們會有三個步驟除了書審"},{"start":468.656,"end":497.313,"text":"接下來事因應也要看接下來在因應當中還要隨時去監督我們希望把它更具體的落實也來監測看看到底這些廠商有沒有按照既定的計劃書規範來做我相信未來是可以做很大的改善同時跟委員報告以往我們是把SRF只有一個標準原因是我們是以品質管制的角度來看"},{"start":497.813,"end":515.932,"text":"那歐洲他們是以產品的角度所以它產品有分等級那目前環境部在規劃的方向也是要朝著去分級的方向所以我相信只要給環境部一段時間我覺得SRF這一塊應該是可以更精進更落實"},{"start":518.114,"end":525.538,"text":"我們是希望說真的能夠落實啊而不是假這個名義然後去行這個逢號離職式啊我們發現這個問題了會積極改進好 謝謝黃委員謝謝有請陳焦華 陳委員謝謝主席 請部長"}]}},{"id":"149025","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149025","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c374f9a4d56476bb22a8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a0322e89831f4f6d40dec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱泰源","委員發言時間":"10:08:27 - 10:19:16","影片長度":"00:10:49","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":649,"end_time":"2023-12-14T10:19:16+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T10:08:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":664,"blocks":[["邱委員泰源：（10時8分）首先謝謝主席有排這個議程，我們這個會期雖然快要結束，但是由COP28勾引出非常重要也是將來政府各部門要努力的方向，我想今天非常有意義，感謝各部門的努力。因為我講的比較跟健康……但是因為跟環境部還是有關係，我再請薛部長好了，那衛福部是周次長，請，我們一起來分享一下，好不好？"],["主席：有請行政單位，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：邱委員好。"],["邱委員泰源：我們看下一張，因為時間的關係，以這一張來講，我會比較focus在健康。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["邱委員泰源：climate change跟health risk這部分，當然2023年世界醫師會……，世界醫師會擁有1,100萬個醫師在世界上，其實他的發動力量是很夠的啦，分布在都會，當然也很多在偏鄉地區服務，在2023年的一個宣言，尤其是針對基層醫療primary health care，當然不只climate change，現在慢性病越來越多，流行病史的 risk，人類也一直在承受環境的衝擊、氣候的變遷對健康的影響，還有抗生素的esistance（抗藥性）等等，在 coming years、未來都是很重要的。其特別強調當然Primary health care，基層醫療的action是非常重要，守住第一線以防治、建立整個韌性的醫療防疫健康體系，是這樣的情況，加上COP，右邊是COP的主席，我們都知道碳排、空氣污染對健康都非常有影響。","我很敬佩我的一個學生，現在是大林慈濟醫院副院長─林名男，多年來其實他已經奮鬥很久了，也算是臺灣之光，世界上相關的議程常常都會請他過去。我最近也開始跟他密切地瞭解他在做什麼，希望將之推展到整個醫療體系。我想這個部分先跟兩位首長說明一下。","再看下一張，因為我的問題在後面，剛好我們每一年世界醫師會跟臺灣醫師會都會在臺灣辦理國際研討會，不管是外交部或者衛福部都很熱烈地支撐，每一年相關的都是很重要的主題，今年的主題是全球健康安全與醫療照護體系。我們請的2個世界重量級的總統都有接見，這個女生是世界醫師會會長，這個男生是理事會主席、是韓國。我們在12月辦理，所以都會把今年度大概世界醫師會在全世界各國演講的主題、最重要的拿來我們這裡，因為他們兩個主題不約而同都在講climate change跟健康的關係，而且講得非常精彩，而我們國內的演講者在這方面，還是在於防疫以後怎麼樣建立韌性的部分，所以他們稍微好像前進一點點，我們要趕快接上進度。因此我覺得今天的會議很重要，我們今天應該要有一些就未來希望呼籲政府或者民間各種 NGO，甚至是醫界，我們要怎麼樣做，我想這個部分拜託環境部跟衛福部能夠擔起領導的責任。"],["薛部長富盛：好，是。"],["邱委員泰源：不要到下次COP29又要再討論一次，中間就是按照我們原來的規畫、計畫一直在進行，這樣我整個review起來就可能跟不上時代。","那我們看下一張，氣候變遷所會造成的，我們用眼睛看比較快，造成區域的差距越大、疾病的型態，還有不要忘記了，心理健康與社會心理這部分在過去我們裡面沒有……我們在檢討，我也希望衛福部以後注意到這個部分，climate change對mental、psychosocial方面的問題；對老人家的衝擊，我想這個不言而喻，更有很多健康上的問題。","請看下一張，這張我是希望提出來，在我們這次的國際研討會裡面，大致上我們覺得，其以醫師的角色，因為是世界醫師會，大概有幾個工作可以這樣做，我請衛福部能夠帶回去檢討看看這些，未來怎麼樣我們來配合這樣的一個趨勢，衛福部可以做哪些事情，或者已經在做哪些事情，我想這個非常重要，讓醫療體系趕快接上，而不是只有在醫療體系還限於碳盤查的階段，看起來這樣跟不上時代。所以拜託，好不好？次長，可以嗎？"],["周次長志浩：好，可以。"],["邱委員泰源：我是希望如此，因為這個會期，現在是12月了，你在一個月內看能不能提出一個報告給我們衛環委員會？"],["周次長志浩：好。"],["邱委員泰源：讓我們展開為了這一屆的ending跟下一屆，像黃秀芳委員這樣繼續再去努力的方向啦！好不好？最重要的當然是，還有就是可能要有資源進來。今年大概都沒有這方面的預算，但是未來我們因為要做這些重要的事情，所以明年是不是可以來編預算？當然，包括全民的宣導、專業人員的教育和研究，不要讓這些花了一、二十年時間關心climate change的同仁們，還是很寂寞地在那邊做研究，他們過去的努力也代表臺灣至少不要落後，現在我們要給他們温暖、給他們支持，在他們過去的經驗和成果之上繼續努力，這應該也是我們吳召委的心願。這個我要拜託衛福部。","當然，我過去在這裡也不是說哪個部會負責什麼，而是彼此都有關係，像過去衛福部、勞動部也有很多合作，我相信環境部在健康和climate change也有很多合作的平臺，尤其我們薛部長、薛校長對生命科學、人民健康非常重視……"],["薛部長富盛：是，跟委員報告，我們跟國衛院有很多空氣和健康的合作。"],["邱委員泰源：你還創設了中興大學的醫學系，非常厲害！所以我想你對這個部分很瞭解，所以我也拜託環境部帶回去看看這些問題可以從你們那邊怎麼樣來幫忙。","接下來還有一些建議，因為要兩個部來幫忙，所以其實我的問題是WMA有很多建議，這整個環境變化所影響的當然很多、很多，各部會都有，但是因為我主要focus在醫療、健康，所以請針對WMA的建議在一個月內給我們一份資料，說明目前政府落實了哪些、未來要做哪些、有什麼構想。","現在臺灣的行動缺乏氣候變遷可能造成的其他健康問題，都沒有把健康問題納入氣候變遷行動的核心，這個部分希望未來衛福部和環境部在規劃的時候能注意，何況這次最多國家簽的宣言就是climate change and health，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["邱委員泰源：部長也有帶隊去，跟部長出去考察一定很累，他非常有精神，但是我想也會收穫很多，一定帶了很多資料回來，以後會對臺灣有很大的貢獻。","此外，感謝上上禮拜我們到澎湖考察了相關的環境、垃圾的問題，部長親自帶隊。他以一個澎湖長大的小孩，有如此傑出的成就，但還是很瞭解地方的需求，說明了環境部未來要做的事情，我們收穫很多。也感謝部會同仁參與，我覺得那對澎湖的發展非常重要，在這邊特別感謝。","我剛剛提的這些就請次長在1個月內給我們報告喔！"],["周次長志浩：好。"],["邱委員泰源：因為未來國家怎麼做、醫界怎麼做，我們就會來呼籲。薛部長這邊也幫忙一下。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝邱委員。"],["邱委員泰源：特別謝謝吳召委今天安排這個很有意義的專題報告讓大家討論。好，感謝大家，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝邱委員。"],["主席：謝謝召委。下一位請黃秀芳黃委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.44846875,"end":9.801593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.662218750000001,"end":17.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.812843750000003,"end":24.044093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.00596875,"end":29.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.034718750000003,"end":30.574718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.148468750000003,"end":36.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.16846875,"end":39.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.31159375,"end":42.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.235343750000006,"end":43.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.97346875,"end":44.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.00721875,"end":44.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.454093750000006,"end":48.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.17971875,"end":47.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.69846875,"end":48.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.39034375,"end":54.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.284093750000004,"end":54.672218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.672218750000006,"end":56.157218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.42721875,"end":60.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.93284375,"end":71.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.13784375,"end":76.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.98096875,"end":85.09784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.55346875000001,"end":96.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.39971875,"end":100.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.35284375,"end":104.25096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.40284375,"end":106.17471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.42346875000001,"end":120.48471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.77159375000001,"end":124.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.97346875000001,"end":125.54721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.20534375000001,"end":127.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.96034375,"end":132.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.00159375,"end":141.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.98346875000001,"end":153.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.35284375,"end":156.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.10346875000002,"end":159.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.19159375,"end":166.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.97534375,"end":167.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.21159375000002,"end":169.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.62471875,"end":172.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.81409375,"end":173.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.60284375,"end":174.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.59846875000002,"end":179.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.12096875,"end":183.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.85471875000002,"end":183.19221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.17534375000002,"end":195.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.81471875000003,"end":203.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.96159375000002,"end":201.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.06284375,"end":201.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.52659375000002,"end":205.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.44596875000002,"end":215.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.33471875,"end":219.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.65909375,"end":221.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.17346875,"end":224.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.94096875000002,"end":225.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.72971875000002,"end":228.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.65346875,"end":231.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.77534375000002,"end":237.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.36096875,"end":243.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.55409375000002,"end":249.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.1859687500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謝謝主席首先謝謝主席排這個有COP28勾引出我們在這個會期雖然快要結束但是非常重要也是將來不管是政府各部門要努力的一個方向我想今天非常有意義感謝各部門的努力因為我講的比較跟"},{"start":31.207,"end":56.983,"text":"但是因為跟環境部還是有關係,我再請薛部長好了,那衛福部是?周市長來,我們一起來分享一下好不好?好,有請行政單位,謝謝我們看下一張,因為時間的關係我們看這一張來講,我會比較focus在健康、health risk這個部分"},{"start":57.739,"end":84.983,"text":"Climate Change和Risk這部分那當然我們在2003年世界一世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世"},{"start":85.766,"end":105.202,"text":"當然不只climate change啦當然現在慢性病越來越多流行病的risk也一直承受人類在承受環境的衝擊那個氣候的變遷對健康的影響還有抗生素的一個resistance"},{"start":108.526,"end":136.058,"text":"抗藥性等等的都是在未來很重要的那他有特別強調當然基層醫療的action是非常重要的鎖住第一線來建立整個韌性的一個醫療防疫健康體系所以這樣的一個情況那加上COP右邊這邊是COP的主席我們都知道這個碳排空氣汙染"},{"start":136.974,"end":166.237,"text":"大概都是對健康非常的有影響我很敬佩我一個學生現在是大嶺慈濟醫院的副院長林明蘭多年來其實他已經奮鬥很久了也算是臺灣之光常常世界上相關的議程都會請他過去我最近也開始跟他密切的來瞭解他來做什麼希望把他推展到可能醫療體系我想這個部分"},{"start":167.555,"end":194.923,"text":"先跟兩位首長先說明一下再看下一張好了因為我的問題可能在後面剛好也是我們每一年世界醫師會跟臺灣醫師會都會在臺灣辦理一個國際研討會不管是外交部或者是衛福部都很熱烈的來執行每一年都相關的都很重要的主題今年的主題是全球健康安全醫療招募體系"},{"start":195.988,"end":215.242,"text":"其實我們請的兩個重量級的世界這個總統都有接見這個女生是世界醫事會會長這男生是理事會主席是韓國韓國他們不約而同都把最近一年的我們在12月半所以都會把今年今年度大概世界醫事會在全世界各國"},{"start":216.434,"end":236.413,"text":"在演講的主題最重要的拿來我們家因為兩個主題不約而同都在講climate change跟健康的關係而且講得非常精彩我們國內的演講者在這方面還是在防疫以後總要建立一個韌性的一個"},{"start":237.569,"end":258.317,"text":"所以他們還稍微好像前進一點點我們要趕快接上這個進度所以今天的我覺得今天的會議很重要我們今天會議應該要有一些未來希望呼籲政府或者是全民間各種NU甚至EJ我們怎麼樣來做我想這個部分環境部跟"},{"start":259.451,"end":282.38,"text":"拜託環境部跟衛福部能夠擔任起這個領導的責任不要到下一次COP29再來,又要來討論一次中間就是按照我們原來的規劃、計畫一直在進行,這樣可能我整個review起來可能跟不上時代那我們看下一張影像那氣候當然變遷會造成這個,我想我們用眼睛看比較快"},{"start":284.203,"end":307.102,"text":"造成區域的差跡與大疾病的形態還有不要忘記心理健康跟社會心理這個部分一直在過去我們裡面沒有我們在檢討我也希望衛生部在以後注意到這個部分和他們Change對Mental、Psycho、Social方面的問題對老人家的衝擊我想這不言而喻多的是更有健康很多健康上的問題"},{"start":311.348,"end":336.317,"text":"那我這張是希望提出來我要請衛福部這是在我們這次的國際研討會裡面大概大致上覺得我們那個他是用醫師啦因為是世界醫師會嘛大概有幾個工作可以這樣做我請那個衛福部我能夠帶回去"},{"start":337.748,"end":365.912,"text":"去看看檢討這些將來可不可以未來怎麼樣我們來配合這樣一個趨勢我們未來可不可以做哪些事情已經在做哪些事情了或者在做哪些事情我想這個非常重要讓醫療體系趕快來接上而不是只有在醫療體系還在盤查還在現已盤查探盤查的階段看起來這樣對不上時代所以拜託我們好不好?次長可以嗎?好可以"},{"start":366.732,"end":389.084,"text":"我希望因為這個會期現在十二月了,你一個月後看能不能拿一個報告給我們未完給我們展開為了這一屆的Ending跟下一屆像我們黃學芳委員這樣繼續再去努力的方向最重要當然就是說,還有就是可能要有資源進來"},{"start":394.352,"end":416.476,"text":"明年是不是未來我們必須要做這些事情?這是重要的,我們就來編預算當然包括從前面的先導、專業人的教育、研究不要讓這些研究、關心climate change的這些同仁們"},{"start":417.922,"end":436.848,"text":"花了1、2十年的研究還是被很寂寞的在那邊做他們過去的努力也帶領到台灣治理至少不要落後現在我們要給他溫暖、給他支持然後利用他們過去的經驗、成果我們繼續來努力這也是我們吳釗緯應該他的心願當然最重要就是有一個這個我拜託那個"},{"start":446.464,"end":467.236,"text":"衛福部當然我也希望我過去在這裡也是部會都不是說你負責什麼都彼此有關係像我們過去衛福部、勞動部也有很多合作的我相信環境部如果在健康跟climate change裡面也有很多合作的平台也很恭喜我們學部長、學校長"},{"start":468.632,"end":496.441,"text":"我們跟國衛院有很多空氣跟健康的合作創起了我們中興大學的醫學系這個非常的厲害所以我想他對這個部分能夠了解我也拜託衛福部環境委員可以帶回去看看這些問題可以從你那邊走過來幫忙好我們看下一張有一些建議我當然是也在這邊"},{"start":499.619,"end":522.636,"text":"因為要兩個部來幫忙所以其實我的問題是WMA有很多的建議那目前因為我主要focus在醫療、健康所以我想這整個環境的變化所影響的當然很多很多各部會都有那針對WMA的建議目前政府落實哪些未來要做哪些也在這一次的一個"},{"start":524.209,"end":548.491,"text":"大概一個月給我們一個看做多少算多少,未來有什麼構想?看下一張因為現在台灣的行動缺乏氣候變遷可能造成其他問題都沒有把健康問題納入在氣候變遷行動的核心所以我想這個部分希望未來衛福部跟環境部在規劃的時候能把"},{"start":550.708,"end":578.602,"text":"造成的驚豪,何況這一次你看全部國家簽最多國家簽最多國家簽的先年就是climate change and health是沒錯沒錯跟部長出去訪查一定很累他這種魔鬼他非常有精神我想但是我想也會收復很多一定也帶很多那邊開會的會以後會對國家對台灣會有很大的貢獻"},{"start":580.873,"end":609.164,"text":"也感謝上上禮拜我們到澎湖也去考察了一些澎湖相關環境、垃圾的問題那部長親自帶隊他以一個澎湖長大的小孩有如此的成就但是還是很瞭解到地方的需求那給我們很多環境部未來要做的事情給我們收穫很多也感謝部長"},{"start":611.162,"end":638.017,"text":"不會裡面的同仁來參與我覺得那個對澎湖的發展也是非常重要在這邊特別感謝我剛剛提的這些就請次長一起報告因為接下來我們就要未來我們國家怎麼做、醫界怎麼做我們就會來服役先副長這邊也幫忙一下好 謝謝邱委特別謝謝吳釗緯"},{"start":640.336,"end":646.083,"text":"今天排的這樣子很有意義的一個大家討論好感謝大家謝謝好謝謝邱委員好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149024","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149024","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3a1b927e31281aa13a8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a03224afb211783feff0a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林為洲","委員發言時間":"09:58:00 - 10:08:22","影片長度":"00:10:22","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":622,"end_time":"2023-12-14T10:08:22+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T09:58:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["林委員為洲：（9時58分）謝謝召委，我們請薛部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：林委員好。"],["林委員為洲：薛部長，這一次你有去參加這個COP會議嗎？有嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：是，有。"],["林委員為洲：你是坐什麼艙，經濟艙還是商務艙？"],["薛部長富盛：商務艙。"],["林委員為洲：OK，你知道規定嘛！部長級的可以坐商務艙，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：按照……是。"],["林委員為洲：有沒有被升等升成頭等艙？"],["薛部長富盛：應該有吧！"],["林委員為洲：你有升等成頭等艙？"],["薛部長富盛：因為這個都是幕僚安排，我……"],["林委員為洲：所以你是坐頭等艙去的，誰幫你升等的你知道嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我整個行程這些事務性的……"],["林委員為洲：說明一下，請你們的幕僚幫忙說明，誰幫部長升等頭等艙的？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，這個是按照行政院的規定。"],["林委員為洲：行政院規定只能坐商務艙喔！"],["蔡署長玲儀：部會首長如果是有提供頭等艙的話，是可以的。"],["林委員為洲：你們是買頭等艙，還是買商務艙啦？"],["蔡署長玲儀：我們是買頭等艙。"],["林委員為洲：喔！買的時候就買頭等艙？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。"],["林委員為洲：這是符合規定嗎？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。"],["林委員為洲：你要確定呢！"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。"],["林委員為洲：還是被升等的？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是，按照就是……"],["林委員為洲：原來就買頭等艙？"],["蔡署長玲儀：按照規定來的。"],["林委員為洲：不過這個以後我們還是可以檢討，有必要一定要坐頭等艙嗎？因為我從來沒有坐過頭等艙，我不知道頭等艙會是什麼樣的滋味，商務艙已經很好了，我坐過商務艙，所以將來預算上我們再來檢討。好，你請回，部長留著。","我們先看一下你們在FB的粉專，最近你們一個禮拜貼好幾篇跟本業無關的內容，幫行政院大內宣，像是長照2.0溫暖照顧。你們是環境部，不是衛福部。"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告……"],["林委員為洲：還有打造溫暖而堅韌的臺灣，講疫情特別條例照顧臺灣，這跟你有什麼關係？跟環境部有什麼關係？"],["薛部長富盛：給林委員報告……"],["林委員為洲：要你們貼文大內宣？"],["薛部長富盛：行政院的部會是一體的。"],["林委員為洲：幫忙大內宣？"],["薛部長富盛：這個跟大內宣沒有關係。給林委員報告，行政院底下的各部會是一體的，這個部分已經有40……"],["林委員為洲：難怪按讚數是30、40，沒有人看，所以也沒有得到什麼大內宣的效果。我建議你們還是回歸自己的本業，對不對？這幾天大家都在討論COP會議到底在談哪一些內容？臺灣還有哪一些可以做得更好，對不對？要專注在本業，貼這個也沒人看，你們的FB評價兩顆星，加油，請注重本業。"],["薛部長富盛：是……"],["林委員為洲：這才是你的專業。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝林委員，我們當然也注重本業，整個行政團隊……"],["林委員為洲：比例是一個禮拜貼三篇，全部是大內宣，是跟貴部毫無關係的貼文，行政院有行政院的網站或是FB粉絲專業社團，它去貼嘛！你們要注重本業。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["林委員為洲：好，你去參加COP 28會議，當然大家在講從27屆到現在28屆，我們到底有沒有進步？但是因為指標的關係，有的NGO評論我們是退步，但是你們一直說我們是進步的，好吧！各有各的指標，採樣的指標不同，不過這個是叫做德國看守的NGO……"],["薛部長富盛：它是一個民間組織。"],["林委員為洲：我知道它是一個NGO，它的CCPI每年都會評，大家也都會參考，所以還是注意一下。"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們來當做參考。"],["林委員為洲：看它他怎麼樣評。你剛剛有做一部分解釋，不過這幾項我們拿出來看，整體表現就不講，因為整體表現到底用哪一些指標加總起來……。我們看它的內容，臺灣在溫室氣體排放及能源使用中的成績非常差，在再生能源和氣候政策方面則是比較差的差評，非常差的是能源使用，所以這一部分值得我們檢討。你知道我們現在發電的組合，火力發電占多少嗎？火力發電裡面當然有燃煤、燃氣……"],["薛部長富盛：燃煤跟天然氣大概都各自將近40%左右。"],["林委員為洲：所以占八成。"],["薛部長富盛：是，可是我們的再生能源大概已經從1、2%到現在10%了，這個成長速率在國際上的排名應該是前段班。"],["林委員為洲：降低火力發電的比例做得不好，所以這個部分……"],["薛部長富盛：我們先用天然氣取代煤……"],["林委員為洲：天然氣還是會排放氣體。"],["薛部長富盛：能源都是以進口為主，所以各位應該也都知道，我們不可能一時之間馬上……"],["林委員為洲：天然氣不是代表乾淨的能源。"],["薛部長富盛：它的排碳量比煤……"],["林委員為洲：它會排哪一些氣體？"],["薛部長富盛：會排二氧化碳溫室氣體……"],["林委員為洲：也是會排嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：但是它排……"],["林委員為洲：它也是化石原料嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯，但是它的量比生煤少很多。"],["林委員為洲：大家都要減少化石原料的使用，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：所以這次的COP為什麼不敢直接說phase-out of fossil fuels，最後也是必須妥協。"],["林委員為洲：因為有人反對啊！阿拉伯國家反對。"],["薛部長富盛：為什麼會反對？就是因為它不實際。"],["林委員為洲：因為他們生產石油啊！為什麼反對？難道你要幫他講話嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：不是，林委員，因為我們沒有生產石油……"],["林委員為洲：人家要phase-out of fossil fuels，這是趨勢嘛！你要幫他們講話，是嗎？說這個大家沒有達成共識。"],["薛部長富盛：不是幫他們講話啦，因為我們也沒有生產石油。"],["林委員為洲：對啊！我們要有自己的……"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["林委員為洲：2050能夠達到淨零碳排。"],["薛部長富盛：我們要對自己有信心。"],["林委員為洲：你的能源那一塊是最主要的，我提供幾個資料，COP27的時候，他們特別提到臺灣的中火、麥寮電、興達電，就是火力發電，還有中鋼、林口火力發電被點名是全球最髒的500大碳排放源，我們就占了幾個？中火、麥寮電、興達電、中鋼、林口電；今年COP28，我們臺灣政府又被點名說減碳不僅沒有改善，還更退步。所以能源政策其實是關係到我們2050要達到淨零碳排最大的關鍵點，如果我們的火力發電不管是煤或天然氣，一直沒有辦法減少，我們要達到那樣的目標叫做緣木求魚。這些都是全球500大碳排最多的，全球500大在我們臺灣，然後你說我們做得多好，這個我們慢慢來討論，有必要整體檢討我們的能源政策，尤其是電，因為電是源頭，你產生電才能讓企業運轉，你即使把汽車全部改成電動汽車，不直接排二氧化碳，但是如果你用的電是火力發電，這些在路上跑的汽車、電車用的還是火力產生的能源，那個源頭我們要好好來探討。今天因為時間的關係，以後我們再找時間探討，等一下我們要去朝野協商。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝林委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，有請邱泰源委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.16534375,"end":4.570343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.941593750000001,"end":5.886593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.207218750000001,"end":7.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.08034375,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.349718750000001,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.480343750000003,"end":16.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.872218750000002,"end":17.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.46284375,"end":17.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.95221875,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.20096875,"end":19.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.69034375,"end":20.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.23034375,"end":20.550968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.293468750000002,"end":22.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.70659375,"end":25.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.782218750000002,"end":26.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.71034375,"end":27.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.68909375,"end":28.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.207843750000002,"end":30.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.950343750000002,"end":31.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.996593750000002,"end":33.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.96659375,"end":35.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.49784375,"end":37.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.556593750000005,"end":38.978468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.43409375,"end":40.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.39596875,"end":42.876593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.72471875,"end":45.002843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.85096875,"end":46.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.33159375,"end":49.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.40284375,"end":51.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.38159375,"end":53.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.541593750000004,"end":54.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.60471875,"end":54.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.65534375,"end":60.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.82659375,"end":68.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.67034375,"end":67.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.86409375000001,"end":70.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.26471875,"end":72.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.94784375,"end":76.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.85846875,"end":80.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.91284375000001,"end":82.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.46534375,"end":84.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.30471875,"end":84.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.73909375000001,"end":87.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.27471875,"end":87.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.36721875,"end":93.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.31221875,"end":90.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.51846875000001,"end":97.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.83471875000001,"end":96.47159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.88909375,"end":100.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.04471875,"end":103.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.69409375000001,"end":117.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.32471875,"end":121.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.51346875,"end":126.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.39096875000001,"end":134.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.58346875,"end":137.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.19909375,"end":145.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.69596875000002,"end":147.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148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這個就各有各的這個"},{"start":284.15,"end":292.81,"text":"指標它採樣的指標的不同不過還是因為這個是叫做德國看守"},{"start":294.397,"end":314.468,"text":"的一個NGO每年我知道一個NGO他CCPI每年都會評但是大家也都會參考所以還是注意一下看他用什麼樣的評你剛剛有做了一部分的解釋不過針對這幾項我們把它拿出來看就是針對"},{"start":321.584,"end":343.708,"text":"整體表現 這個我們就不講因為整體表現到底用哪一些指標加總起來的然後我們看它的內容臺灣在溫室氣體排放及能源使用中的成績非常差在再生能源和氣候政策方面則是比較差的差評非常差的是能源使用"},{"start":352.202,"end":371.702,"text":"這部分我覺得啊是有值得我們檢討的你知道我們現在的能源的發電的組合火力發電佔多少火力發電裡面當然有燃煤、燃氣大概各自相近40%左右嘛所以佔八成啊是"},{"start":372.537,"end":390.364,"text":"可是我們在再生能源已經從幾乎大概1、2%到現在已經10%了我想這個成長速率大概在國際上排名應該是前段班啦火力發電的降低比例做得不好"},{"start":391.766,"end":405.464,"text":"我們先從用天然氣來期待煤我們能源都是以進口為主所以各位應該也都知道天然氣不是代表乾淨的能源"},{"start":406.636,"end":427.618,"text":"他會排什麼?他會排哪一些?氣體?二氧化碳也是氣體會,但是他的排...他也是化石原料嘛!是!沒錯!但是他的量...大家都要減少化石原料的使用嘛!所以這一次的COP他為什麼不敢直接講說Face out fossil fuel?"},{"start":428.198,"end":447.063,"text":"你看他也是自己最後必須因為有人反對阿阿拉伯國家反對阿為什麼會反對就是因為他不實際因為他生產石油阿為什麼反對難道你要幫他講話嗎因為我們沒有生產石油這是趨勢嘛這是趨勢嘛"},{"start":458.308,"end":466.611,"text":"阿你要幫他們講話說 因為這個沒有通過大家的共識不是幫他們講話啦 因為我們也沒有生產食用 對啊我們要有自己的 是 沒錯 達到2050我們要對自己有信心啦 能夠淨零碳排阿你的 欸 能源那一塊是最主要的啦好啦 我提供幾個 好"},{"start":482.53,"end":507.577,"text":"這個二十七的時候他們特別提到臺灣的中火、麥寮電、興達電就火力發電火力發電還有中鋼林口火力發電被點名是全球最髒的五百個碳排放源全球最髒的五百大"},{"start":508.871,"end":524.202,"text":"我們就佔了幾個中火、麥寮電、興達電、中鋼、林口電今年COP28我們台灣政府又被點名說減碳不僅沒有改善還更退步所以這個齁這個這個能源政策齁其實關係到我們整個"},{"start":537.819,"end":562.296,"text":"這個2050要達到淨零碳排最大的關鍵點就在能源政策了如果我們的火力發電不管是煤或是天然氣一直沒有辦法減少我們要達到那樣的目標叫做緣木求魚啦那個都是全球500大排碳排最多的500大在我們台灣你說我們做得多好"},{"start":568.179,"end":580.848,"text":"有必要 這個我們慢慢來討論有必要整體檢討我們的能源尤其是電因為電是源頭啦你產生電才能讓企業"},{"start":585.754,"end":606.162,"text":"運轉讓汽車你即使全部改把它改成電動汽車不直接排碳二氧化碳但是你用的電如果是火力發電這些在路上跑的汽車電車用的還是火力的東西火力的能源所以那個源頭我們要好好的來探討"},{"start":607.284,"end":618.18,"text":"好今天時間的關係以後我們再找時間探討等一下我們要去草野協商了好謝謝林委員好謝謝謝謝林委員有請邱太元邱委員"}]}},{"id":"149023","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149023","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3bdc7fe97080a56eba8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a03227ec09d647ab4e3bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳玉琴","委員發言時間":"09:45:19 - 09:57:55","影片長度":"00:12:36","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":756,"end_time":"2023-12-14T09:57:55+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T09:45:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":503,"blocks":[["吳委員玉琴：（9時45分）謝謝主席。我要先請經濟部曾次長，還有環境部薛部長以及農業部王玉真王副司長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請行政單位。"],["吳委員玉琴：曾次長，我先請教你，因為有關經濟部的議題，這次COP第28次締約大會針對有關轉型脫離化石燃料的一個共識，裡面有幾項要跟經濟部討論一下，因為接下來這樣一個目標，檢視我們國內的情形到底達標或是難度有沒有很高，剛剛其實洪申翰委員也有稍微提到，比如說COP28的結論裡面再生能源要成長3倍，增至3倍，如果照我們現在的情形來講，臺灣的再生能源現在大概占整個總發電量的8.26%，如果在2030年……"],["曾次長文生：2022年。"],["吳委員玉琴：2022年的時候，接下來到2030年如果要成長3倍，我大概估算總電量增加2%，然後再生能源大概要達到24.8%左右，如果這樣估算應該是合理。其實我們從2050年淨零排放的規劃裡面，再生能源要達到60%到70%，但因為我們沒有一個中間的目標值，經濟部在估算過程中應該是循序漸進的成長，我們2030年要達到24.8%這個目標可行嗎？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，就是兩個部分，第一個部分是您這一頁簡報裡面提到2030年24.8%，國發會的規劃是要能源部門做到27%。"],["吳委員玉琴：27%？"],["曾次長文生：到30%。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以比這個要求還更高。"],["曾次長文生：所以是會比這個量還更高。第二個部分跟委員報告，這次COP28在計算的時候是算裝置容量。"],["吳委員玉琴：裝置容量！所以不是發電？"],["曾次長文生：我們的裝置容量到2030年依照我們的規劃是絕對會超過3倍的，我們現在規劃起來的量，以2022年大概14個giga來做基礎的話，我們到2030年會超過40個giga是目標值。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["曾次長文生：是目標，我們會超過40個giga，所以，以這一個要求來講，再生能源裝置容量成長3倍，或是委員提的這一頁簡報，就是發電量要比2022年成長3倍，都是我們的目標，我們也覺得達成的機會非常非常的高。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。就能源的配置上面，這個再生能源是我們現在的風力發電─陸上風電、海上風電、地面光電、屋頂光電，有沒有地熱？在整個發展裡面。"],["曾次長文生：地熱這部分，我們大概有三個重要的目標，第一個就是加速speed up，然後scale up，這是既有的一些技術，另外一個是diversify，就是要讓它更多元化。除了風跟光以外，地熱是我們接下來第三個最重要的再生能源，當然也會配合水力。"],["吳委員玉琴：喔，還有水力的部分。謝謝。","接下來也要請教您一下，煤電減排的部分還是我們經濟部的議題，在這次COP28也談到應該要去發展所謂的碳捕捉負排放（CCUS）技術，在這樣一個技術裡面，請問，如果我們真的在2050年要吸收4,020萬公噸的二氧化碳，我們辦公室在估算二氧化碳透過這樣一個碳捕捉技術把它抓下來，我要問的是這個量應該很大吧？未來怎麼儲存？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，這次跟化石燃料有關的，從phase out一路改變成transition away，其實化石燃料也有不同的類型，燃煤、燃油、天然氣三個的排碳量排碳密度是不一樣的，其實這一次天然氣的角色也有被特別突出，當然它必須配合CCS，它必須配合CCS，就是碳捕捉封存或是碳捕捉再利用，碳捕捉封存再利用這裡面算到了4,000萬噸……"],["吳委員玉琴：這是您的報告裡面提到的？"],["曾次長文生：對，這是國發會當時在算整個路徑的時候估算的。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["曾次長文生：這個CCS現在正在發展中，有幾個事情，我們現在跟國科會合作的相關項目包含國內的地質學者，事實上臺灣西岸有一些適合的地層能夠來做碳的封存，但是現在捕捉的技術要跟全世界一起合作，因為碳的封存、碳的捕捉跟脫附然後再封存，這中間怎麼能夠提升它的捕捉效率，這是重要的工作。"],["吳委員玉琴：也就是說2050年，我們的碳捕捉技術可能還會不斷精進。"],["曾次長文生：其實這幾年包括國際上很多的大公司都在做這一塊。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，我問的是這些固化的二氧化碳捕捉下來了會變成碳酸鈣嘛，那這些的儲存，你剛剛也提到西部有地方可以放，因為我在估算量的時候，其實它大概每4年就可以在大安森林公園這個面積上堆了一座101耶！所以這個量蠻大的，關於去化等等，你們有在思考這個問題嗎？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，因為它地質上面的尺度，如果可以的話，我們其實應該找專門的學者來，我只是聽他們的說明之後轉述，我怕有點不精準。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["曾次長文生：但他們現在估算出來的量遠高於此，因為這個是1年0.4億噸，他們算出來的……"],["吳委員玉琴：更高？"],["曾次長文生：對，是比這個還要高的，而且它是打到海水底下的鹽水層，他們有一些他們的作法，我覺得很多技術細節，如果在這邊講……"],["吳委員玉琴：是，瞭解。"],["曾次長文生：我不是專家，我怕講錯。"],["吳委員玉琴：到2050年其實有很多技術還有很多的課題要面對，我想我們政府以及剛剛聽曾次長這樣講是有在思考的，不是完全沒有去想這些事。"],["曾次長文生：常常在討論這些問題。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，謝謝，我知道這個技術還是有很多要討論的。","接下來要問有關這一次在COP 28裡面提到甲烷要清零，這要問農業部跟環境部，我們知道在2023年國家排放清冊裡面有記載甲烷的排放，2021年甲烷的排放大概是445萬噸左右二氧化碳當量，這樣的情形之下，其實農業大概占了188萬噸，廢棄物大概占了180萬噸。如果到2030年要甲烷淨零，畜牧業部分，因為最主要的甲烷大概就是畜牧業還有廢棄物，請問農業部跟環境部有什麼想法？"],["薛部長富盛：跟吳委員報告，有關廢棄物的部分，我們已經在推動厭氧發酵產生沼氣，這已經有一些示範的場域，未來會持續。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以2030年要清零，有沒有問題？因為他的目標也是2030年甲烷要清零。"],["顏署長旭明：跟委員報告，我們的廢棄物最主要來自掩埋場，掩埋有機物造成甲烷……"],["吳委員玉琴：還有污水場啊！"],["顏署長旭明：對，還有污水場的污泥。在掩埋場部分，目前我們的掩埋場有48座，封閉之後設置太陽能，這是中和的部分；沼氣發電在短期之內，如果能夠負極的，我們會發電，比較沒有辦法負極的，我們是破壞做沼氣收集。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["顏署長旭明：所以目前以高峰相比的話，整個掩埋場的甲烷排放量已經降到以前的10%左右，只剩下10%，我們會依上述的講法來做中和跟解除。"],["吳委員玉琴：有一個目標值，我們再來努力嘛！"],["顏署長旭明：是，謝謝。"],["吳委員玉琴：農業部因為畜牧要養豬、養牛，這好像很難，你們的目標或是你們怎麼處理這個？"],["王副司長玉真：是，簡單跟委員報告，我們在畜牧產業的部分，除了我們積極推動禽畜糞尿的資源化處理，所有的家禽、家畜，包括最重要的……"],["吳委員玉琴：你們也是用厭氧發酵來發電嗎？"],["王副司長玉真：豬隻的部分的話，是。而且我們已經超過250萬頭以上在做沼氣的再利用。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，所以也是朝這個目標來解決啦！"],["王副司長玉真：有、有、有，謝謝。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，謝謝。最後我要問環境部，給你一點時間來回應氣候變遷保護績效CCPI對我們臺灣的評價，說我們的排名倒數第7；或是我們溫室氣體排放排名倒數第4；再生能源所占比例好像也太低；且能源耗用與節能也表現很差。我們有那麼差嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上這個CCPI它的方法學是完全錯誤，跟整個COP28締約方大家追求的方向完全相反，舉個例子而言，菲律賓跟印度竟然排名第6名跟第7名。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["薛部長富盛：他們在過去這一年碳排量都增加了6、70%，而且還在增加燃煤發電廠。"],["吳委員玉琴：嗯。"],["薛部長富盛：所以這個完全是違背我們一般的認知，更何況在2030年我們臺灣人均每個人一年只能排放2.7噸，結果菲律賓、印度每個人可以排放到7噸到8噸，同樣是人，為什麼他們會那麼高？"],["吳委員玉琴：對，為什麼會這樣計算？"],["薛部長富盛：所以我們就說這個CCPI根本是不值得去討論、不用花時間去討論。"],["吳委員玉琴：喔！是。"],["薛部長富盛：我們國內也有學者發表文章來反駁這個CCPI。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，雖然部長這樣講，可是當國際NGO來對我們這樣的評價，其實對我們來講國際形象還是有傷的啊！"],["薛部長富盛：給委員報告，聯合國另外有一個歐盟的氣候研究中心，它的評比在210個國家裡面，我們是排第45名。"],["吳委員玉琴：是、是。"],["薛部長富盛：那個才是根據減碳量的表現，所以在210個國家裡面我們排第45名，我們是屬於前段班的。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["薛部長富盛：這個CCPI它才選67個國家，去年選63個國家，今年選67個國家，那麼在我們後面的國家還包括韓國、加拿大，美國跟日本也大概跟我們都一樣排在第5、60名。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["薛部長富盛：所以我個人覺得就是，我們國內應該對自己的國家有信心，對於排碳的努力，雖然我們還沒有達到完美的境界，但是我們一直朝這個方向努力，應該給大家肯定。當然我們在政策方面，事實上CCPI也對我們國家的政策肯定，我們在政策的部分排名第24啊！"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["薛部長富盛：它是排碳量這一部分把我們排到很後面，因為它的方法根本就是錯誤的嘛！所以大概是這樣子。"],["吳委員玉琴：嗯、好，所以說有機會讓部長能夠說明。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["吳委員玉琴：因為我看到這個對我們評價這麼差，我們也有點嚇一跳啦！雖然我們這幾年真的是很努力在法制跟政策方面……"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["吳委員玉琴：都已經朝2050年淨零排放的一個目標在努力，所以我們還是持續來努力。"],["薛部長富盛：是，好，謝謝吳委員！"],["吳委員玉琴：謝謝部長、謝謝次長！"],["主席：謝謝，有請林為洲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":9.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.66659375,"end":13.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.543468750000002,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.230968750000002,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.504718750000002,"end":108.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.586593750000006,"end":63.008468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.15159375,"end":66.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":109.17846875000001,"end":149.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.63659375,"end":124.48409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.88909375,"end":125.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.08221875,"end":132.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.78159375,"end":138.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":149.89784375000002,"end":152.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.94846875000002,"end":150.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.18471875,"end":150.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":152.86784375000002,"end":156.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":157.10346875000002,"end":167.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.04346875000002,"end":163.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.76909375,"end":164.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.50284375,"end":166.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.11034375,"end":174.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.97409375,"end":177.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.34909375,"end":180.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":178.39971875,"end":190.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.33096875,"end":186.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.66409375,"end":188.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.21221875,"end":190.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":191.35971875,"end":199.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.44409375,"end":191.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.01721875,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.03409375,"end":196.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.91159375,"end":196.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.45971875,"end":227.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.60721875000002,"end":249.78096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.93284375000002,"end":253.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":250.05096875,"end":251.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":251.62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我們會超過40個Giga所以以這一個要求來講再生能源、裝置能量成長三倍或是委員提的這一頁簡報就是發電量要比2020年成長三倍都是我們的目標我們也覺得達成的機會非常非常的高那就能源的配置上面這個再生能源是我們現在風力發電路上風電、海上風電、地面光電、屋頂光電有沒有地熱"},{"start":180.281,"end":198.881,"text":"我們大概有三個重要的目標第一個就是加速然後這是既有的一些技術另外一個是就是要讓它更多元化除了風跟光以外地熱是我們接下來第三個最重要的再生能源當然也會配合水利"},{"start":200.057,"end":208.059,"text":"好還有水利的部分好謝謝那接下來也要請教您一下就是這個煤電的減排的部分還是我們經濟部的議題那在這個因為我們在這次的COP28裡面也談到說應該要去發展這個所謂碳補桌副排放的"},{"start":219.782,"end":219.802,"text":"致獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":243.873,"end":268.371,"text":"淡捕捉的技術把它抓下來那我要問的是這個量應該很大吧?那未來怎麼儲存?這次跟化石燃料有關的從Face-out一路改變成純芯的位其實化石燃料也有不同的類型燃煤、燃油、天然氣三個的排碳量排碳密度是不一樣的"},{"start":269.071,"end":286.484,"text":"那其實這一次天然氣的角色也有被特別突出當然它必須配合CCS它必須配合CCS就是碳補桌封存或是碳補桌再利用那碳補桌封存再利用這裡面算到了這個這個四千萬噸這是你們的報告裡面提到的對這是國發會當時在算整個路徑的時候估算的"},{"start":290.927,"end":312.539,"text":"這個CCS的部分現在正在發展中我想說有幾個事情包含我們跟國科會合作的相關項目現在包含國內的地質學者因為台灣的西岸其實事實上是有一些適合的地層能夠來做那個碳的封存但是捕捉的技術"},{"start":313.781,"end":333.698,"text":"現在要跟全世界一起合作因為碳的捕捉跟託付然後在封存的中間怎麼樣子能夠提升它的效率捕捉效率也就是說2050年我們碳捕捉的技術可能還會不斷去精進其實這幾年大家包括很多國際上很多大公司都在做這一塊"},{"start":334.338,"end":352.06,"text":"我再問的是說這些固化的二氧化碳你捕捉下來的會變成碳酸鈣嗎那這些的儲存你剛剛也提到說西部有地方可以放因為我在估算這個量的時候其實它大概會每四年就可以在大安森林公園這個面積上堆了一座101"},{"start":353.542,"end":383.062,"text":"所以這個量蠻大的所以去化或是你們有在思考這個問題嗎跟委員包括因為它那個地質上面的尺度因為如果可以的話我們其實應該找這一個專門學門的學者來我只是聽他們的說明以後轉述一下我怕有點不精準但它那個整個規它現在估算出來的一個量是遠高於因為這個是0.4億噸一年他們算出來的更高"},{"start":385.362,"end":408.427,"text":"對,是比這個還要高的,而且它是打到海水底下的淹水層它有一些他們的做法,我覺得那個很多技術細節,如果在這裡講...是,了解,因為我覺得到2050年其實很多的技術還有很多課題要面對,我想我們政府都聽剛剛政策長這樣講是有在思考的,不是完全沒有去想這些事"},{"start":410.147,"end":433.77,"text":"好謝謝我知道因為這個技術還是有很多要來討論的好謝謝那我接下來要問有關這一次在COP28裡面也提到甲烷要清零這個是要問農業部跟環境部的部分那我們知道甲烷的一個排放在我們的2023年的國家排放清澈有記載的有所在就是那個2021年我們甲烷的排放大概是445"},{"start":436.773,"end":444.78,"text":"二氧化碳的當量這樣的一個情形其實農業的部分大概佔了188萬噸廢棄物大概佔了180萬噸接下來我們要如果到2030年要所謂的"},{"start":453.969,"end":454.169,"text":"甲碗淨零"},{"start":485.177,"end":507.2,"text":"跟委員報告最主要我們那個會區主要來自掩埋場掩埋有幾乎造成還有污水場對還有污水場的污泥這個部分那在掩埋場的部分目前我們的這個掩埋場有48座是封閉之後設置太陽能這大概是綜合的部分"},{"start":507.72,"end":507.86,"text":"中央會議中央會議"},{"start":527.763,"end":544.735,"text":"剩下百分之十我們會依上述的講法來做一個綜合跟有一個目標值我們就再去來努力嘛那農業部這邊因為農畜牧我們要養豬啦養牛啦這個好像很難你們的目標或是你們怎麼處理這個"},{"start":546.456,"end":564.901,"text":"簡單跟委員報告我們在畜牧產業的部分除了就是說我們積極推動有情緒分尿的資源化處理所有的家庭家畜那包括就是說你們也是豔陽發酵嗎對 株枝的部分的話是而且我們已經超過250萬頭以上有在做早期的一個再利用"},{"start":565.822,"end":575.532,"text":"是所以也是朝這個目標解決有有有好謝謝那最後我要問那個環境部來環境部給你一點時間回應這個氣候變遷績效的CCPI對我們臺灣的評價說我們告訴第七"},{"start":584.348,"end":610.104,"text":"或是我們衛生氣體排放倒數第四再生能源比例好像也太低那能源耗用跟節能也表現極差我們有那麼差嗎?實際上這個CCPI它的方法學是完全錯誤跟整個COP28、DA大家要追求的方向完全相反"},{"start":610.984,"end":634.256,"text":"舉個例子菲律賓跟印度既然排名第六名跟第七名他們在過去這一年碳排量都增加了60、70%而且還在增加燃煤化電廠所以這個完全是違背我們一般的認知更何況我們人均台灣只能每個人一年排2.7萬噸在2030年"},{"start":637.117,"end":644.486,"text":"結果菲律賓、印度他可以排到七頓到八頓為什麼他們會那麼高所以我們就說這個CCPI根本是不值得去討論不用花時間去討論我們國內也有寫著發表文章來反駁這個CCPI"},{"start":658.221,"end":685.196,"text":"雖然部長這樣講可是當國際的一個應該是NGO來對我們這樣的評價其實對我們來講還是國際形象還是有傷的啊聯合國另外有一個歐盟的氣候研究中心它的評比裡面在210個國家我們是排45名那個才是根據減碳量的表現所以我們45名在210個裡面我們是前段班的"},{"start":686.697,"end":688.919,"text":"新冠肺炎疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗"},{"start":711.218,"end":712.059,"text":"國際合作發展基金會主席"},{"start":727.71,"end":728.01,"text":"有請林維洲、林委員"}]}},{"id":"149022","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c35e64c62bff11918ca8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a032299b491e425fd1a755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:34:24 - 09:45:11","影片長度":"00:10:47","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":647,"end_time":"2023-12-14T09:45:11+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T09:34:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":438,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時34分）謝謝主席，我們請薛部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["薛部長富盛：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。部長跟幾位委員有實地到COP28的現場去看過，確實帶回了很多第一手的資料，所以剛剛洪委員講的，我其實很想說，洪委員講的我們都贊成，我們直接簽連署，請部長直接照做。不過有一些細節的部分，確實還可以請部長再多說明一點，比如說，剛剛說到這個決議的部分，洪委員剛剛提到了，因為這樣的一個會議開下來，在不同的時間當中，也有各種不同的團體、不同的國家集結成不同意見的發送，但是我們必須說，COP 28的結論應該只有一個吧！應該只有一個。我這樣問好了，部長，這次的會議到底有沒有結論？"],["薛部長富盛：有，事實上，他們有……"],["蘇委員巧慧：有結論嘛！所以結論是在什麼時候發出？昨天嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：昨天下午最後一個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：不用啦！部長，這個問題很簡單，有沒有結論？有嘛！這個結論是什麼時候發出的？"],["薛部長富盛：昨天下午。"],["蘇委員巧慧：昨天嘛！所以昨天以前的都不叫大會結論，對吧？"],["薛部長富盛：那個都是倡議而已。"],["蘇委員巧慧：都是倡議而已嘛！所以大會結論是在昨天才發出的嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：而且就是現在我的投影片列出來的，也是你剛剛報告的，昨天發出的這個才是這一次、本屆、今年COP 28的結論，可以這樣說嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是，可以。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，我想請問你，也請你簡短的回答，你剛剛在回答洪委員的時候，我們有提到國內有人直接在12月5日的時候就已經把某一次的倡議變成COP 28會議的結論，然後大肆宣揚，這中間其實在講的就是對核能的態度。我們回到前一頁，部長，我想請你在備詢臺上面再次的說明，在COP 28裡面對於核能的態度到底是什麼？它的比重還有談論到的狀況是如何？請你簡單說明一下。"],["薛部長富盛：是的，事實上，我在看到國內這個報導之後，我馬上接受媒體的聯訪，我表達得非常清楚，現階段核能對臺灣而言是假議題。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，我想先請問你的是，COP 28的結論當中提到核能的比重有多少，並且它是把核能列為一個什麼樣的狀況？"],["薛部長富盛：在倡議裡面是希望2050年……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那是倡議，我現在問的是結論。"],["薛部長富盛：結論沒有啊！"],["蘇委員巧慧：結論有啦！結論還是有啦！在結論當中，它是在加快零排放和低排放技術的發展這一項當中，確實有把核能放進去。"],["薛部長富盛：就是（e）的這個部分，有把核能列進去。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們就事論事嘛！它有把核能放進去，在加快零排放及低排放技術的發展這一項當中有列了進去，但是這就表示它把核能列為綠電嗎？其實也不盡然嘛！但是它確實表示這是可能降低碳排的技術之一，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我們必須說，其實在整個COP 28的大會結論當中有提到核能，沒有錯，但是其實是把它列為應該要繼續發展的新技術之一。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但是並不是前面所講的在22個國家提出的倡議當中說我們全世界就是應該要用三倍速的方向來發展核能，完全沒有這件事情嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對，完全沒有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：完全沒有這件事情嘛！在結論跟倡議不一樣的狀況之下，在結論當中，我們甚至也沒有倡議這樣的內容，你以一個參與過這次會議的部長的身分，應該是可以在這裡向全國公開再次聲明吧！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒有所謂在2050年要把核能三倍速的發展，完全沒有這個結論，但是核能在某些國家可以變成再生能源，甚至配合那些國家自己的環境去發展。"],["蘇委員巧慧：配合它的條件嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對，每個國家的情況都不一樣。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，那麼現在就回來看，當COP 28有這樣的結論之後，又必須要適應每一個國家不同的條件，就是你現在所說的這樣嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，你在之前的言論當中有說到，對臺灣來講，核能的發展是一個假議題，你可不可以在這裡再一次表示「核能的發展是假議題」這句話是什麼意思？其實你也有前提啊！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你也有前提啊！我都還從報紙上幫你剪了這個報導。"],["薛部長富盛：是，必須在三個前提獲得確保之後，臺灣再去發展核電，我相信到那時候大家是可以接受的，那我們並不是說因為沒有把它列入我們未來發展的方向就忽略掉核能，事實上，我們很多學術研究單位持續關注核能的研發技術。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以是哪三個條件？"],["薛部長富盛：第一個是確保核能的安全，第二個是核廢料獲得妥善的處理，第三個是有全民共識，我想這三個應該大家是可以接受的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：在這三個當中最難的其實就是你這次說的核廢未解決，所以談核電是假議題嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：為什麼會這樣講的原因是，因為現在在發展核電的國家當中，我們必須說，其實他們都是屬於有能力或者有現況可以處理核廢料的國家。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：在這些國家當中，其實很大一個條件，大部分就是地廣人稀，它有一個空間可以去處理核廢，偏偏臺灣的狀況就是地狹人稠，恰恰相反，所以從過去到現在來講，甚至不管是哪一個政黨執政，沒有一個中央政府……"],["薛部長富盛：沒有一個縣市願意去……"],["蘇委員巧慧：現在還沒有辦法處理最終處置場的問題啊！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以在沒有辦法處理核廢之前，其實你核電技術再怎麼發展，除非你有辦法發展到我們做核電都完全沒有核廢料，或讓這個核廢料是所有人都認為它是安全的，科學檢測它也是安全的，我現在說的是核廢料，還不是核能發電而已，在這樣的狀況下才有空間，臺灣才有可能進行到共識的這個部分，對不對？所以部長，我們今天在這裡要把幾個層次分清楚，一個是世界對於核電的態度是什麼，另外一個是臺灣到底有沒有條件來使用核電，而臺灣使用核電的前提是我們到底有沒有辦法處理核廢料，所以這幾個層次其實部長你應該像念經一樣，不停地、不停地對全國來做一個宣達，也就是全國人民要認知到的是，我們在討論使用核電之前的前提是，到底我們臺灣有沒有能耐、有沒有縣市願意接受處理核廢料成為在你身邊的最終處置場，就是這樣子而已嘛！其他的技術都是另外的問題，所以在這樣的狀況下，部長，我再一次地說，其實資訊的傳達真的是非常重要，所以這一題如此。","另外一個題目，我覺得可能會變成新的狀況是，您剛剛在在的說，氣候損失與損害基金是這一次COP28的重要結論之一，臺灣也表示我們願意參與，甚至是先行參與這個基金的建置，以至於我們未來可以參與更多的組織面向，我想請你簡短地回答，請問我們是要用什麼樣的名義捐助、捐助多少、何時捐、預算來源、想要達到什麼樣的效果？這個部分你始終還沒有做過解釋，請你現在解釋。"],["薛部長富盛：我先講一個案例，就是剛剛我跟洪委員有提到，今年7月份外交部吳部長跟我們太平洋4個友邦國家，包括帛琉、諾魯、馬紹爾以及另外一個國家成立一個Just Transition Fund，我們臺灣已經提供1,000萬美元去做那個基金，所以同樣我對媒體也講過，假如我們能夠實際參與COP的締約國大會，那臺灣願意履行會員的一個責任，我們來捐，當然這個經費要捐多少就必須要我們行政院或者甚至是更高層次……"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為我想大家都會更想要知道我們這個預算是從哪一個部門、哪一個項目出來，另外，這個預算能夠達到的效果是什麼，比如說，你剛剛說我們已經跟這4個國家有過這樣子的一個基金，變成一個團體，那麼請問一下，這次在大會當中，他們對我們的態度如何？"],["薛部長富盛：非常正面，他們在聯合國氣候大會裡面為我們發聲，覺得不應該遺漏任何一個國家或地區。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們為什麼當時選擇這4個國家？"],["薛部長富盛：因為太平洋島國這個事實上是比較嚴重，我這次跟很多包括加勒比海我們的友邦，他們都紛紛跟我表達說希望他們能夠加入這個基金，所以事實上反應很正面，我昨天也跟院長、跟外交部……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是嘛！所以這是一個正向的發展，因為我們選擇這幾個國家是他們跟我們一樣，都是屬於海島型國家。"],["薛部長富盛：沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：大家都是面對氣候變遷首當其衝的國家，而在這些條件的國家當中，臺灣是屬於比較有能力的國家，所以我們率先出來，這等於是Taiwan can help再一次的證明。在這樣的狀況之下，我們果然因此收穫了善意的循環，所以他們願意幫我們在大會發聲，我們當然期待這個可以繼續下去。我想部長，因為它確實是動用了國家的預算，所以其他的委員一定會繼續地追問你成效如何，我期待的是你能夠像剛剛使用核能的這一題，你念經也好，你就是一樣的東西一直講，一定要說到大家都能夠懂。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：大家都能夠耳熟能詳，大家就知道國家政策的方向是如此這般，你才有可能得到追隨者嘛！所以在這裡我是希望部長能夠把這個部分再講更清楚一點。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝。"],["蘇委員巧慧：繼續傳達，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝蘇委員。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員。有請吳玉琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.50659375,"end":10.375343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.083468750000002,"end":32.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.27909375,"end":55.515968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.71846875000001,"end":59.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.40971875,"end":64.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.16846875,"end":65.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.79284375,"end":68.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.31159375,"end":69.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.34909375000001,"end":70.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.45034375,"end":70.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.55159375000001,"end":72.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.65284375,"end":71.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.23471875,"end":109.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.00659375000001,"end":75.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.69784375,"end":80.01846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.33409375000001,"end":86.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.67971875,"end":87.84846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.84409375,"end":89.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.96909375,"end":99.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.03221875000001,"end":100.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.65096875,"end":125.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.74534375,"end":140.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.17784375000002,"end":156.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.79971875,"end":156.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.23846875,"end":157.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.25534375,"end":165.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.32159375,"end":169.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.96659375000002,"end":171.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.29096875000002,"end":249.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.96034375000002,"end":186.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.63596875000002,"end":233.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.03846875000002,"end":249.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.19034375,"end":249.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.22409375,"end":249.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.24096875,"end":249.35909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.76409375000003,"end":249.79784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.79784375000003,"end":250.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.64159375000003,"end":250.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.65846875000003,"end":255.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.55221875,"end":259.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.85534375000003,"end":265.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.09909375,"end":271.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.95534375,"end":270.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.68909375000004,"end":292.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.14784375,"end":278.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.91971875,"end":280.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.74471875,"end":295.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.02284375,"end":295.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.44471875,"end":296.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.03534375000004,"end":301.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.11971875,"end":296.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.97534375000004,"end":303.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.15221875000003,"end":321.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.77846875,"end":322.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.88784375,"end":324.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.43596875000003,"end":331.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.16909375,"end":481.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.82909375,"end":347.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.02721875000003,"end":348.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.13221875000005,"end":351.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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謝謝主席 我們請薛部長有請部長好 蘇委員好部長好那部長跟幾位委員有實地到這個COP28的現場去看過確實帶回了很多第一手的資料所以剛剛洪委員講的我其實很想說洪委員講的我們都贊成啦我們直接簽連署啦請部長直接照做"},{"start":32.918,"end":57.792,"text":"不過這個有一些細節的部分確實部長還可以請你再多做說明一點比如說剛剛說這個決議的部分洪委員剛剛提到了因為同樣的這樣的一個會議開下來在時間的不同當中也有各種不同的團體不同的國家集結成不同意見的發送但我們必須說COP28的結論應該只有一個吧"},{"start":60.453,"end":60.834,"text":"昨天下午最後一個"},{"start":73.257,"end":97.703,"text":"不用啦部長這個問題很簡單啦有沒有結論嘛有嘛什麼時候發出的這個結論昨天下午啊昨天嘛所以昨天以前的都不叫大會結論對吧不是那個都是倡議而已都是倡議而已嘛所以大會結論是在昨天才發出的嘛而且就是我們現在列出來這個也是你剛剛報告的現在我的投影片這個這個才是昨天這一次本屆今年COP28的結論可以這樣說嘛好那部長"},{"start":101.104,"end":125.452,"text":"部長我想請問一下請你用一點簡短的回答你剛剛在回答洪委員的時候我們有提到的是國內有人據說他直接在12月5號的時候就已經把這個某一次的倡議變成了28會議的結論然後大肆宣揚這中間其實在講的就是對核能的態度所以我們回到前夜好不好回到前夜"},{"start":127.089,"end":147.004,"text":"我想請你在這個備詢台上你再次的說明在COP28裡面對於核能的態度到底是什麼它的比重談論到的狀況是如何請你簡單說明一下是的我在事實上在看到國內這個報導之後我馬上接受媒體的聯訪"},{"start":149.005,"end":167.402,"text":"我表達得非常清楚現階段核能對臺灣而言是假議題部長我想先請問你的是COP28它的結論當中提到核能有多少並且它把核能列為一個什麼樣的狀況它是倡議裡面是希望2050年那是倡議我現在問的是結論結論沒有啊"},{"start":172.767,"end":190.714,"text":"結論有啦結論有啦結論還是有啦在結論當中他是在加快零排放和低排放技術發展的這一項當中在這個當中把核能確實有放進去我們就事論事嘛他把核能有放進去在這個"},{"start":192.274,"end":211.645,"text":"加快零排放及低排放技術的發展當中有列進去但這表示他就是把核能列為綠電嗎其實也不盡然嘛也不盡然但他確實表示這是一個可能降低碳排的技術之一對不對所以我們必須說其實在整個COP28的這個結論當中大會結論當中有提到核能沒有錯但"},{"start":216.127,"end":233.261,"text":"它是把它列為應該要繼續發展的新技術之一但不是前面所說的在22個國家裡面提出的倡議當中說哎呀我們全世界就是應該要用三倍數的方向來發展核能完全沒有這件事情嘛對不對"},{"start":234.062,"end":249.18,"text":"完全沒有這件事情嘛結論跟倡議是不一樣的狀況之下在結論我們甚至是也沒有倡議的這樣的內容這個應該是可以部長在這裡以一個參與過的以一個部長的身份在這裡向全國公開再次聲明吧"},{"start":249.881,"end":265.448,"text":"是沒有所謂在2050年要把核能三倍的這個結論完全沒有但是核能對某些國家它可以變成再生能源甚至它"},{"start":266.208,"end":291.794,"text":"配合他自己國家的環境配合他的條件嘛對不對對每個國家情況都不一樣那麼現在這樣就回來是當COP28有這樣的結論之後又必須要適應的是每一個國家不同的條件就是你現在這樣說的嘛好所以部長你在之前的言論當中你有說到對台灣來講核能的發展是一個假議題你可不可以在這裡再一次表示核能的發展是假議題這句話是什麼意思"},{"start":292.794,"end":314.703,"text":"其實你也有前提啊是你也有前提啊連報紙我都還幫你選必須在三個前提之下獲得確保之後台灣去發展核電我相信那時候大家是可以接受的那我們並不是說沒有把它列入我們的未來發展方向就不會去就忽略掉核能"},{"start":315.183,"end":337.262,"text":"事實上我們很多協助研究單位持續針對核能的研發所以是哪三個條件第一個確保核能的安全第二個核廢料獲得妥善的處理第三個有全民共識我想這三個應該那在這三個當中其實最難的其實就是你這次說的就核廢未解決所以談核電是假議題"},{"start":338.423,"end":357.661,"text":"為什麼會這樣講的原因是因為現在在發展核電的國家當中我們必須說其實他們都是屬於有能力或者有現況可以處理核廢料的部分的國家嘛那在這些國家當中其實很大一個條件大部分的就是地廣人稀他有一個空間可以去處理核廢那偏偏台灣的狀況就是地狹人叢恰恰相反"},{"start":363.166,"end":383.897,"text":"所以以從過去到現在來講甚至不管是哪一個政黨執政沒有一個中央政府現在還沒有辦法處理最終處置場的問題啊所以在沒有辦法處理核廢之前其實你核電技術再怎麼發展除非你有辦法發展到我們做核電都完全沒有核廢料"},{"start":384.597,"end":405.9,"text":"或讓這個核廢料是所有人都認為它是安全的科學檢測它也是安全的我現在說的是核廢料還不是核能發電而已喔在這樣的狀況下才有空間台灣才有可能進行到共識的這個部分嘛 對不對所以部長我們今天在這裡要把幾個層次分清楚一個是世界對於核電的態度是什麼"},{"start":406.44,"end":427.825,"text":"另外一個是臺灣到底有沒有條件來使用核電而臺灣使用核電的前提是我們到底有沒有辦法處理核廢料所以這幾個層次其實部長你應該像念經一樣不停的不停的對全國來做一個宣達也就是全國人民要認知到的是我們在討論使用核電之前的前提是到底我們臺灣有沒有能耐"},{"start":430.026,"end":441.957,"text":"有沒有縣市願意接受處理核廢料成為在你身邊的最終處置場就是這樣子而已其他的技術都是另外的問題所以在這樣的狀況下部長我再次的說其實資訊的傳達真的是非常重要所以"},{"start":448.342,"end":464.407,"text":"這題如此那另外一個題目我覺得可能會變成新的狀況是你剛剛在在的說氣候損失與損害基金是這一次COP28的結論重要結論之一那臺灣也表示我們願意參與甚至是先行參與這個基金的這個建制"},{"start":465.467,"end":489.739,"text":"以致於我們未來可以參與更多的組織面向那我想請你簡短的回答請問我們是要用什麼樣的名義捐助捐助多少何時捐預算來源想要達到什麼樣的效果這個部分你始終還沒有做過解釋請你現在解釋我先講一個案例就是剛剛我跟洪委員有提到我們今年七月份外交部吳部長跟我們太平洋"},{"start":490.479,"end":516.751,"text":"四個有幫國家包括柏流、諾魯還有馬薩爾以及另外一個國家成立一個Just Transition Fund那我們台灣已經提供10 million就是一千萬美元去做那個基金所以同樣我對媒體也講過假如我們能夠實際參與COP的第一國的大會"},{"start":518.452,"end":537.421,"text":"臺灣願意履行會員的一個責任我們來捐那當然這個經費要捐多少就必須要我們行政院或者甚至是更高的成績因為我想大家都會更想要知道說我們這個的預算是從哪一個部門哪一個項目來出來"},{"start":538.041,"end":561.846,"text":"那另外這個預算能夠達到的效果是什麼比如說你剛剛說我們已經跟這四個國家有過這樣子的一個基金變成一個團體那麼請問一下這一次在大會當中他們對我們的態度如何我非常正面他們在聯合國大會氣候大會裡面事實上為我們發聲覺得不應該遺漏任何一個國家或地區那我們為什麼當時選擇這四個國家"},{"start":563.866,"end":578.356,"text":"因為太平洋島國這個事實上是比較嚴重我這次跟很多包括加勒比海我們的友邦他們都紛紛跟我表達說希望他們能夠加入這個基金所以事實上環境很正面我昨天跟院長跟外交部"},{"start":579.176,"end":599.433,"text":"所以這是一個正向的發展因為我們選擇這幾個國家是他們跟我們一樣都屬於海島型國家大家都是會面對氣候變遷首當其衝的國家而在這一些條件的國家當中台灣是屬於比較有能力的國家所以我們率先出來這等於是台灣can help的再一次的證明嘛"},{"start":599.873,"end":605.477,"text":"那在這樣的狀況之下我們果然因此收獲了善意的循環所以他們願意幫我們在大會發聲那我們當然期待這個可以繼續下去我想部長因為他確實是動用了國家的預算所以其他的委員一定會繼續的追問你成效如何我期待的是你能夠像剛剛使用何能的這一題你念經也好啦你就是一樣的東西一直講"},{"start":626.332,"end":641.605,"text":"一定要說到大家都能夠懂大家都能夠耳熟能詳大家就知道國家政策的方向是如此這般那你才有可能得到追隨者嘛所以在這裡的話我是希望部長能夠把這個部分再講更清楚一點繼續傳達 謝謝部長好 謝謝蘇偉仁好 謝謝謝謝蘇偉仁 有請吳益勤委員"}]}},{"id":"149021","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149021","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3d57bfbf4381f71cba8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a0322b68fd153a217bd045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"09:21:59 - 09:34:14","影片長度":"00:12:15","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":735,"end_time":"2023-12-14T09:34:14+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T09:21:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":377,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（9時22分）請薛部長、李次長還有曾次長。"],["主席：有請行政單位官員們，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長好、兩位次長好。這一次COP28經歷了二個禮拜的相關會議，每年都是國際上氣候變遷討論最重要的盛事之一，在這兩個禮拜裡面，當然有很多重要的討論跟波折，一直到昨天，甚至到昨天的深夜，最後的共識其實才做了產出，我想大家其實都有盯到最後一刻。","我想先問一個事情，其實在第一週的談判、在進行第一週會議的時間裡面，我覺得臺灣媒體做了滿多報導的一個事情，就是好像有20幾個國家，他們發出了所謂2050會增三倍核能的倡議，就部長的瞭解，這個事情是這個大會最後的結論跟共識嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：沒有，事實上沒有得到共識，因為其他有共識的都將近有200個國家；剛剛洪委員提到的才22個，而且那22個大部分都是本身在核能發展以及產業方面，事實上也算相當成熟的，他們使用的比例很高。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我們看到那幾天媒體報出來以後，我們有幾位在野黨的總統候選人都非常非常興奮，甚至直接把它寫成說，這是COP28的共識，我想這並不是一個事實。","接下來我想請問曾次長，我想大家其實已經看到，甚至現在有人把它定名為叫做UAE共識、阿聯酋共識。在阿聯酋共識裡面，我們看到在這一次的談判裡面最清楚跟最具體的一個條文，其實就在於2030年以前要將再生能源裝置量提升三倍，以及每年平均的能源效率提升兩倍。在這一段時間中，這個想法的提出並不只是在最後，包括在一開始會議的時候就有提出來，我想這部分經濟部有沒有做一些相關的幕僚作業跟討論？"],["曾次長文生：謝謝委員。其實除了具體承諾跟能源有關，大概這兩點是最重要的結論，除了這個以外，其實一些具體的作法，包括要讓供應鏈更有韌性等等，很多，還有包括協助開發中國家，這些相關工作其實我們都有把它整理起來。我簡單講兩個事情：第一個，有關於再生能源的部分，我們是要把現在成熟的再生能源能夠加速，也讓它加量，除了這個以外，我們要更多元化的來發展再生能源，這個是臺灣現在政策正在推動的工作，我們也希望能夠把再生能源的裝置儘快地再提升。除此之外，第二個有關於委員提到能效的部分，能效的部分大概簡單來講就是希望全球的年均能源效率改善目標能夠從2%提升到4%，它的計算方法是用初級能源的供給去除以GDP……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，因為時間有限，我可能要打斷……"],["曾次長文生：好，那我簡單講，委員，從2016年到2022年，臺灣初級能源的能源密集度年均改善達4.2%，過去這幾年我們改善的量是比它要求的4%再多一點。"],["洪委員申翰：好，次長，那我就更具體問下面一個問題。很多媒體都關注在這一次COP28的結論之後，像這個最重要的再生能源三倍、能效兩倍，我們能不能夠針對這個結論再做臺灣國內政策加碼的承諾？也就是順應國際上再生能源三倍跟能效兩倍來作為我們2030年再生能源跟能效的目標，這部分我們有沒有辦法順應這個再做加碼的承諾？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，如果它的基礎年是用2022年來做，我們到2030年平均來講，我們的光電目前規劃的量是能夠達到三倍，風電的量也應該會有2022年的裝置容量的三倍，所以在裝置容量的增加上是可以達成目標的。"],["洪委員申翰：所以再生能源三倍是可以承諾的？"],["曾次長文生：是會達成目標的。"],["洪委員申翰：是會達成的？好。"],["曾次長文生：依照我們現在的規劃，除了這個以外，第二個部分有關能源效率，就是初級能源供給的密集度這一塊，我們去年年均的改善是4.2%，今年預估可能會有機會超過6%，就是供給量，我們使用量下降了，GDP成長了，所以我們改善率是還不錯，我們也希望2030年這個改善4 %的目標能夠達成，年均改善4%。"],["洪委員申翰：我更簡單的說，現在我們臺灣的政府也再次承諾了順應目前COP28的共識結論，相較於2022年，再生能源三倍跟能效兩倍這件事情我們是可以承諾的，這沒問題的，對不對？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，我剛才的說明是要講過去這幾年其實我們就順著這個軌跡在做，我們看到的現象……"],["洪委員申翰：也就是說我們就在這個軌跡上面……"],["曾次長文生：對。"],["洪委員申翰：我們其實就是在這個方向上面，所以這個承諾是我們可以承諾的事情，這是第一點……"],["曾次長文生：我們希望這個軌跡能夠繼續順利的往上走，就是朝著這一個比率繼續改善。"],["洪委員申翰：好，我覺得這個部分很重要，這當然也代表了國內的政策其實跟國際上是很清楚接軌的，並沒有所謂違逆國際的趨勢跟方向，這是第一點。","下面一個問題，次長，我要問的是，在這次會議裡面我們發現有很多包括歐洲的國家，因為烏俄戰爭的原因，他們其實都花了很多力氣在提升能源效率的部分，當然臺灣看起來，因為我們能源價格的變動沒有人家高，所以我想問次長的是，現在經濟部有沒有對於各國，尤其是對提升能源效率的這些新作法有密切的、高度的掌握？"],["曾次長文生：有關這個部分，委員的建議就是我們來做「前瞻技術追蹤平台」，其實我們平常都在追啦，但是沒有把它集合起來成為一個平台提供給大家參考，我來要求能源署，我們一起來做相關的工作。"],["洪委員申翰：次長，這個問題其實我是想要接下一個問題，但我現在想要請薛部長。部長，我要問你，你覺得我們達成2050淨零排放目標有辦法只靠自己嗎？你覺得可以只靠自己嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：需要國內跨部會跟產業，當然……"],["洪委員申翰：我說的不是環境部，我說的是臺灣自己。"],["薛部長富盛：臺灣自己……"],["洪委員申翰：可以只靠自己就達成嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：應該要跟大家合作。"],["洪委員申翰：需要跟大家合作，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我這次去其實很明顯的知道，我們的淨零排放這件事情幾乎不可能只靠臺灣自己，我們需要靠大量的國際合作。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你覺得現在臺灣正在進行包括氣候跟淨零相關的國際合作，足夠我們達成剛才所說2050的淨零排放的工作嗎？我們現在的國際合作夠了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我們還要繼續擴大國際的合作。"],["洪委員申翰：需要擴大嘛？"],["薛部長富盛：是，絕對要擴大。"],["洪委員申翰：部長說的好。因為我的時間有限，部長，我自己有一個具體的建議，我認為我們臺灣就氣候或者是淨零來說，我們的國際合作應該更有戰略性。我提一件事情，其實我們有很多友邦國家是太平洋的島國，每一次在氣候談判裡面都是非常重要也非常受矚目的所謂小島國家的聯盟，可是我們對於這些友邦，就我自己的觀察，我們恐怕是可以跟他們建立一個更清楚的、甚至是更具戰略意義的合作關係，甚至我們也可以幫他們發聲，他們每一次在氣候談判裡面都是大家最注目的一個聲音……"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：也是我們最好的合作對象，但我說實話，我覺得我們現在對他們國內狀況的瞭解跟掌握，我自己這次去完以後，我覺得還不夠高……"],["薛部長富盛：給洪委員報告……"],["洪委員申翰：所以我覺得我們需要更多系統性的戰略合作，這是我想提的第一點建議。"],["薛部長富盛：是。好。"],["洪委員申翰：第二點就是剛剛跟次長講到的問題，我們沒有辦法靠自己的力量就完成淨零轉型，我們需要很多來自國際的新的技術、前瞻的技術，現在到底發展到最前沿的是哪幾個國家、哪幾個企業、哪幾個公司、哪幾個社群裡面已經有最新的demo，我們需要知道這件事情，所以我覺得我們應該在國際合作的概念之下，有一個最新的、具前瞻技術的追蹤平臺，這部分可能是經濟部應該可以扮演很多角色，可能不只是能效，包括再生能源、包括氫能，所有只要更新的技術的話，我們都不排斥，我們都必須密切追蹤，甚至我都覺得對於一些新的核能技術，我們也該追蹤，這我都同意。","再來一個事情是，我們的發展機制，包括一些規範性的機制，尤其像我知道，現在我們很多產業都在討論CBAM歐盟的碳邊境調整，可是大家現在只關注這個階段，那請問下個階段呢？下個階段其實也在討論中，可是我想就環境部來說，你們對於歐盟可能下一個階段的CBAM目前掌握度到什麼程度？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上不只歐盟，包括我們跟美國、新加坡、日本等國家也都有在接觸。另外，我針對剛剛洪委員特別講到的中間這個部分，事實上李次長或許也可以講，今年7月份外交部就已經跟4個太平洋友邦……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，對不起，因為時間有限。我自己真的覺得其實在環境部或國發會應該直接來帶領一個國際合作的專案，這個國際合作專案應該包括前瞻技術、包括小島國家的合作，也包括一些新的治理機制的未來前瞻的進一步發展，我覺得這件事情可能拼湊起來對於臺灣在做淨零跟氣候變遷的問題上面，跟國際上面的連結，我覺得我們需要做這個事情。","最後我要提醒一點，我們都知道我們在UN裡面的參與是相對比較困難的，我們要參與聯合國比較困難，我覺得我們也需要發展更多在UN以外的國際合作的參與平臺，這部分我覺得是環境部現在還相對比較欠缺的部分，我這邊其實有列了一些是在聯合國以外的參與機制，我希望可以請部長再帶回去討論，哪些部分其實我們應該積極的再去參與，而不只是說因為我們不是UN的締約國……"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我們在這裡面談判會相對受限的問題，其實在其他地方，我們可以有很好的發揮。以上種種建議，部長，可不可以把這些建議帶到行政院或帶到國發會裡面跟龔主委、跟陳院長來討論，這是我們應該做的事情，部長，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：可以。給洪委員報告，昨天下午就已經跟陳院長報告過了，事實上剛剛洪委員講的這個部分都有cover在內。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們希望你們的討論有一個好的結果，那看可不可以在一個月後給我們相關的規劃的訊息，可以嗎？一個月後。"],["薛部長富盛：一個月？可以。"],["洪委員申翰：好。謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝洪委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員，下一位請蘇巧慧委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.83534375,"end":15.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.079093750000002,"end":18.137843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.79034375,"end":30.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.11096875,"end":28.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.27096875,"end":30.304718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.64221875,"end":37.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.86471875,"end":42.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.42096875,"end":49.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.33971875,"end":55.853468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.32596875,"end":60.494093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.11471875,"end":58.148468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.148468750000006,"end":58.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.21596875,"end":58.35096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.915968750000005,"end":69.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.23096875,"end":73.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.48784375000001,"end":81.31784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.26284375,"end":87.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.84846875000001,"end":91.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.79721875,"end":99.20534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.50909375,"end":103.18784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.35659375,"end":104.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.12846875000001,"end":106.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.46159375,"end":107.47409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.76096875,"end":109.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.02221875000001,"end":114.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.07659375,"end":114.44346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.91596875,"end":143.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.29534375,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要跟大家合作啦需要跟大家合作對不對部長我這次其實去很明顯知道我們的淨零排放的這一件事情幾乎不可能只靠臺灣自己我們其實靠大量的國際合作下一張所以部長你覺得我們現在臺灣我們正在進行包括氣候跟淨零相關的國際合作足夠我們達成剛才說2050的排放這個淨零排放的這樣子的工作嗎我們現在的國際合作夠了嗎"},{"start":482.287,"end":491.606,"text":"我們還要繼續擴大國際的合作需要擴大嘛部長說了那再往下我想到後面因為我時間上面有一些有限到最後一張"},{"start":493.435,"end":516.129,"text":"前面一張部長我自己有個具體的建議我認為就台灣我們就氣候或者是近鄰來說我們的國際合作應該更有戰略性我提一件事情其實我們有很多的友邦國家在太平洋他們是太平洋的島國其實都是每一次在氣候談判裡面非常重要也非常受阻力的所謂小島國家的聯盟"},{"start":516.849,"end":540.789,"text":"可是我們對於這些我自己也觀察我們恐怕是可以跟他們建立一個更清楚的甚至更具戰略意義的這個合作的關係甚至我們也可以幫他們發聲他們每次在這個氣候談判裡面都是大家最注目的一個聲音那也是我們最好合作的對象但我說實話我覺得我們現在對他們國內狀況的了解跟掌握我自己這次去完以後我覺得還不夠高"},{"start":542.091,"end":549.551,"text":"所以我覺得我們需要跟這系統性的戰略合作這是我想提的第一點的建議第二點就是剛剛跟次長在講到的問題"},{"start":551.192,"end":576.515,"text":"我們沒有辦法靠自己的力量就完成淨零轉型我們需要很多來自國際的新的技術前瞻的技術現在到底發展到最前緣是哪幾個國家哪幾個企業哪幾個公司哪幾個社群裡面已經有最新的Demo我們需要知道這件事情所以我覺得我們應該在這個國際合作的概念之下有一個最新的這個前瞻技術的一個追蹤的平臺這部分可能是經濟部其實應該可以扮演很多的角色"},{"start":577.116,"end":597.745,"text":"可能不只是能效包括再生能源包括氫能所有只要跟新的技術有關我們都不排斥我們都必須密切追蹤甚至我都覺得對於一些新的核能技術我們也該追蹤這我都同意再來一個事情是我們的發展的機制包括這些一些規範性的機制尤其像我知道現在我們很多產業都在討論CBAM都在討論歐盟的碳邊際調整"},{"start":601.286,"end":613.283,"text":"可是這只是大家現在只關注這個階段阿那請問下個階段呢下個階段其實也在討論中阿可是我想就環境部來說你們對歐盟可能下一個階段的CBAN目前掌握度到什麼程度"},{"start":614.444,"end":637.8,"text":"事實上不只歐盟包括我們跟美國跟新加坡、日本等國家也都有在接觸另外我針對剛剛洪文特別講到的中間這個部分事實上理事長或許也可以講今年7月份外交部就已經跟四個太平洋友邦部長我這邊就直接對不起因為時間有限我自己覺得我們其實應該在部層或國發會的部分直接應該來帶領一個"},{"start":642.763,"end":655.934,"text":"國際合作的專案這國際合作專案應該包括了前瞻技術包括小島國家的合作也包括一些新的治理機制的未來前瞻的進一步的發展我覺得這些事情可能拼湊起來我們對於"},{"start":658.296,"end":672.661,"text":"臺灣在做淨零跟氣候變遷的問題上面跟國際上面的連結我覺得我們需要一個這個事情最後我要提醒一點我們都知道我們在UN裡面的參與是相對比較困難的我們對聯合國參與比較困難我覺得我們也需要發展更多在UN以外的"},{"start":673.341,"end":699.695,"text":"國際合作的參與的平台這部分我覺得是環境部現在還相對比較欠缺的部分我這邊其實有列了一些其實是在聯合國以外的參與機制我希望可以請部長再帶回去我們來討論哪些部分其實我們應該積極的再去參與而不只是說因為我們不是E1的締約國所以我們在這裡面談判會相對受限的問題其實在其他地方我們可以很好的發揮以上這個建議部長可不可以把這些建議帶到行政院或帶到國發會裡面跟"},{"start":701.616,"end":704.198,"text":"同時與財政部委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":730.204,"end":730.968,"text":"謝宏維 下一位請蘇喬惠 蘇委員"}]}},{"id":"15355","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15355","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a04f924cb68922450bad9f551ce5fa921f46d53a332764a53557f311ac99f690a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院黨團協商（事由：繼續研商「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案」（公務預算部分））","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-14","start_time":"2023-12-14T08:30:15+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2023121365","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-14T17:18:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":31665,"委員發言時間":"08:30:15 - 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環境部部長今天也有所以等到輪到他的時候可能他有會派副部長第三個就是邱國正部長他也因為每一個禮拜四他都會有安排另外的公務所以沒有辦法就是說有請假的我先跟他報告"},{"start":2113.649,"end":2139.751,"text":"那接下來我們就就是總統府我們預算的就是總統府主管的部分那現在是不是我們好 謝謝提問林佳龍 民主黨是什麼公務是普選嗎可不可以講清楚另外環境部部長不來就是不審他去哪裡"},{"start":2143.447,"end":2164.933,"text":"那下午啊 沒關係 那就跳過他是在委員會沒關係 那下午等他吧沒有那回事啊就等他來先把他跳過或者明天他在未還 未還 未還歸未還嘛我這邊時代電影也同意啦沒有那回事啊部長要來那院長 那個民進黨看什麼事吧 講一下"},{"start":2166.869,"end":2191.777,"text":"好來 那不然由副秘書長來報告一下跟曾總召報告那個林秘書長應該有其他的會議但絕對不是輔選 謝謝好吧 那你看吧我還是希望他來我還是希望他來沒有比在立法院尊重由院長協商好吧 跳過 總統跳過院長 我不尊重你"},{"start":2194.185,"end":2195.406,"text":"因為他第一次當部長,他不曉得這個委員會或是這邊審預算"},{"start":2221.639,"end":2229.348,"text":"第一次 第一次 第一次審預算第一次審中央政府總預算總召我來處理 我來處理這個阿連到林佳龍的部分 我覺得說是不是尊重總統府"},{"start":2236.596,"end":2247.479,"text":"因為他們不會直接告訴你說是什麼狀況會議但是他是用消去法不是屬於這個跟政黨選舉的會議他只有五個案啊沒關係那就下午沒關係就等他我不要我就等他"},{"start":2257.633,"end":2283.024,"text":"委員長請院長來猜試一下好了 部長 那個秘書長最好還是到啦好 謝謝他不尊重他不尊重朝野四個黨團公務沒關係 等他那就明天嘛 那就明天好了沒關係 那就明天 等他有空再來"},{"start":2291.048,"end":2306.983,"text":"希望今天早上所有的協商都能夠完成報告院長 其實朝野的氣氛很好不要因為兩個不來真的 這個最基本的預算要結束不來沒關係 我等他明天禮拜六也可以 禮拜天也可以"},{"start":2310.224,"end":2337.75,"text":"我們今天的協商就剩下司法及法治委員會社會福利及衛生環境委員會這個兩個委員會加起來差不多有480案那如果說能夠順利的話今天早上就能夠完全結束了就會讓各部會知道就是說我們希望努力能夠在今天中午之前能夠協商完成來柯總召來柯總召來你講一下講一下來柯總召"},{"start":2339.29,"end":2341.332,"text":"好啦 那就休息啦 休息"},{"start":2367.386,"end":2396.269,"text":"休息休息 休息啦 我們要走囉等一下啦先跳過嘛 先跳過先審其他的阿這麼簡單的事情為什麼不這樣子協調阿東西不要隨便答應人家請假先其他的部會再等著我們先先處理阿小事變大事對啦 反應沒有沒有來 邱黨員應該是環境部先開始嘛"},{"start":2398.41,"end":2401.813,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":2417.807,"end":2427.454,"text":"今天有三頁有請假第一頁是總統府有正式來函來請假第一頁是環境部因為委員會開會要去委員會第三頁是邱國正部長因為他要講所以下午輪"},{"start":2446.488,"end":2467.815,"text":"那個第二輪的部分他三個案沒有辦法來那一樣一樣來第一個總統和秘書長請假各位怎麼樣可以啊這樣過吧這樣過啦等一下有空或者明天後天我會等他對吧真的好啦你不用急不用急"},{"start":2476.295,"end":2476.315,"text":"嘿 這樣"},{"start":2501.872,"end":2508.042,"text":"還沒到的時候我們暫時保留,等他來再來,這樣可以嗎?我現在去通知嘛,他要開會就要停起來嘛"},{"start":2509.369,"end":2511.311,"text":"現在等到委員會結束再過來"},{"start":2535.629,"end":2537.17,"text":"總預算比什麼還重要立法院的專案報告"},{"start":2564.177,"end":2587.313,"text":"時間到環境部的部長就要來了嘛這個我等一下要跟文進行溝通一下那以後就要這樣我們在草仔鄉每一個教訓專案報告我們就不會搞比例原則環境新種新種阿柯你算老金清楚所以等一下環境部到部長一定要過來所以等一下請他過來哪裡有你選副總統還在搞這個東西這是宴會欸對不對對啊"},{"start":2592.449,"end":2596.792,"text":"讓總統府這個副秘書長來說明一下跟院長跟三個黨團的總召報告這個我剛已經聯絡上 四個黨團那個我剛已經聯絡上加農秘書長他現在在總統府內馬上這個從會議中離開過來立法院 謝謝"},{"start":2611.664,"end":2612.144,"text":"副秘書長請國務司館館長先"},{"start":2637.225,"end":2653.423,"text":"這個 院長副秘書長沒有委屈一下 你不要這樣這是立法院啦 院長這樣大家會尊敬你什麼叫那個副秘書長委屈一下 秘書長 什麼 院長好啦好啦 立法院沒有這樣啦好啦好啦好啦 我叫他委屈一下謝謝你的糾正"},{"start":2658.708,"end":2686.796,"text":"那現在我們就先進行國史館主管的預算好不好那我現在去介紹國史館列席的首長我們國史館館長陳以生先生接下來我們就看國史館第六案第六案那屬於通山科目那是不是就通案處理可以嗎"},{"start":2689.019,"end":2711.044,"text":"應該照慣例我們就通案處理欸 那個總召 來 比較快同意嗎 同意啦好 同意第六案 通山科目啦通山就通山啦好 謝謝委員通山科目 所以我們就通案處理好 那就謝謝這樣就可以給館長離開喔國事館館長在大家都看到喔 來"},{"start":2718.649,"end":2721.592,"text":"好 那就謝謝館長啦好 來接下來接下來我們就"},{"start":2737.441,"end":2753.478,"text":"行政院連市行政總署主管的部分那這個主管部分首先我就介紹列席的首長行政院連市行政總署連市長蘇俊榮先生接下來就請大家看第七案"},{"start":2755.664,"end":2755.944,"text":"第12案 國動委員"},{"start":2784.534,"end":2784.834,"text":"委員長我講一下"},{"start":2813.14,"end":2828.22,"text":"沒有意見就好了,不要再執行好不好,沒有時間請問我們人事長,就是說在水運軍巡守這邊,我們不知道人總現在有通過人力的部分嗎?"},{"start":2830.052,"end":2830.593,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2851.161,"end":2851.822,"text":"16案改組結議18案"},{"start":2866.988,"end":2874.914,"text":"改組決議改組決議沒有意見通過19案改組決議沒有意見通過20案屬於通商文通案處理21案改組決議沒有意見通過22案凍結40萬年民眾黨結果有改嗎"},{"start":2888.821,"end":2915.42,"text":"改組結一好不好改組結一比較好啦那二十三案通三科目我們就通案處理二十四案凍結百分之五那沒有意見就通過啦好有意見嗎好沒意見通過好這什麼規劃費用啥改組結一好不好"},{"start":2919.693,"end":2921.513,"text":"二十五案 簡列一百萬年二十五案 簡列二十萬年 明日見通過"},{"start":2945.664,"end":2952.526,"text":"二十六 通商公務 通案處理 二十七案 凍結五十萬年二十八案 主結議 沒有意見通過"},{"start":2974.3,"end":2974.74,"text":"建議文字修正"},{"start":3001.533,"end":3022.345,"text":"倒數第二行會同前序部研擬違法時相關把裁判改成處理機制等可行性﹑並於兩個月內向立法院司法及法制委員會提出書面報告三個月啦 都用三個月了好 那31案主決議 作文就修正 明月間就修正通過 32案主決議"},{"start":3024.721,"end":3025.862,"text":"有一個保留案要不要再考慮一下"},{"start":3052.396,"end":3052.576,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3080.885,"end":3086.186,"text":"接下來立法院主管的部分首先我就介紹列席的首長 立法院秘書長林志蝦先生"},{"start":3110.653,"end":3121.439,"text":"請大家看38案改組結議,沒有意見通過39案改組結議,沒有意見通過40案改組結議,沒有意見通過41案改組結議,沒有意見通過42案改凍結500萬年專案報告改書面報告"},{"start":3135.66,"end":3162.02,"text":"我一定要再一次的強烈表達因為我們語言發展法已經通過一段時間那麼對原住民的相關語言的推動大家都很努力我們也知道但是我們還是覺得政府應該可以做得更快更好尤其是在立法院院長在台上"},{"start":3163.303,"end":3184.885,"text":"我們相關的單位在這幾年我每一次都盡量利用機會用母語不管是國事論壇也好或者是一般的法案討論的時候希望能夠把母語重建起來但是我們看到"},{"start":3187.076,"end":3187.276,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":3207.456,"end":3208.377,"text":"他似乎要回應一下"},{"start":3234.861,"end":3254.314,"text":"我有跟那個料委員溝通,同意凍結500,那因為這個是原住民語言要把它翻譯,事實上因為它那個族語很多,所以要翻譯不是那麼容易,因為我們大概有12族到13族的語言,原住民語言"},{"start":3254.774,"end":3280.063,"text":"所以我們如果每一組要直接翻譯事實上我們真的那個人力物力真的是還需要很多加強那我們會盡量努力我們會要向那個主計處那邊主計總處那邊多要一點錢然後來增加這些人員配置所以我們也很謝謝這個樣的提案我們會再努力那所以我們對於這個提案我們原則上我們"},{"start":3280.963,"end":3280.983,"text":"暫停會議"},{"start":3303.902,"end":3331.592,"text":"遵照辦理好 召喚通過45案主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過46案主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過47案主決議做文字修正沒意見就修正通過48案主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過49案主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過50案測案51案主決議有文字修正好 那50案主決議做文字修正那沒意見就修正通過"},{"start":3333.636,"end":3334.838,"text":"委員長講一下53案因為這個部分就是希望能夠把這個"},{"start":3348.703,"end":3376.494,"text":"接入機制要完成要執行那這邊應該沒問題吧對我們會在大概下一會期我們就會盡量努力來溝通來做執行好謝謝好那就53案主決議作文字修正沒有意見修正通過54案主決議徵召辦理好召喚通過55案撤案56案主決議徵召辦理好召喚通過"},{"start":3377.709,"end":3380.531,"text":"接下來我們就開始處理總統府的預算"},{"start":3408.097,"end":3432.432,"text":"來 我們就來進行進行總統府主管的部分那首先介紹列席的所長我們現在介紹總統府秘書長林佳龍先生好 那現在就請大家看第一案第一案第一案是並委會決議辦理"},{"start":3435.258,"end":3437.119,"text":"主委文字修正主委修正"},{"start":3464.386,"end":3493.036,"text":"好 你們看一下好 請收購好 另外我要請教秘書長其實這是朝野協商預算 院長主持秘書長當過立委嘛對不對 這是立法院最基本的尊重你看能來一叫不到5分鐘就到了還請教 好 第一個"},{"start":3494.994,"end":3519.571,"text":"第二 請教秘書長賴副總統現在是民進黨總統候選人對不對對他的大端機在浮現對不對如果那個有依照規定辦理的話有依照規定辦理的話那表示有一些是不依照規定辦理喔沒有就是要辦理就要依照規定"},{"start":3521.011,"end":3549.685,"text":"因為這個都有公務上面的慣例然後相關的規定順便假借公務自己去補選我想這個公務員嘛 一定是要按照規定來辦理不一定喔好 到現在你看那個會計長應該在這裡啦就是到底大家欸 主席長 我又沒問你 你在打pass等一下請你出去喔"},{"start":3553.564,"end":3580.496,"text":"你放心啦 民主黨很有經驗啦你不用跟他打pass啦不然你先離座一下民主黨 到現在民主黨到現在賴副總統搭專機現在已經負帳多少錢 可不可以講一下今天審議算要講了因為我手頭上沒有這個資料好沒關係 請那個會計長"},{"start":3584.451,"end":3611.707,"text":"花生總召 這個一向是由國防部在做處理 回去我們查一下再跟總召報告要多久總召我報告一下 這個付錢 這個如果有復選的行程 相關的錢都是這個賴副知行處理的啦 不是總統府付的 那今天下班前提供給立法院可不可以對啊 他可不是總統府付的啊 總統府怎麼能付這個錢當然 對啊 所以 但因為都有付啦 所以今天下班前應該提供給大院"},{"start":3614.144,"end":3614.804,"text":"我們開始進行司法院主管的部分"},{"start":3658.229,"end":3672.932,"text":"我來介紹列席的所長室外院秘書長吳山榮先生接下來我們就請大家看57案57案改組決議有沒有意見"},{"start":3675.253,"end":3683.703,"text":"小意見我還是要跟秘書長再說明一下秘書長應該記得我有跟你質詢過土地的問題後來監察院的委員"},{"start":3689.23,"end":3689.39,"text":"主席"},{"start":3712.488,"end":3740.979,"text":"不要變成司法烏龍這樣好嗎好 謝謝好 了解好 那謝謝 來 鄭總長基本上司法院從蔡政府執政以來司法院的表現其實我很多都不認同比如說懲戒法院懲戒法院那個吳院長現在案子進行情況怎麼樣"},{"start":3747.389,"end":3759.475,"text":"現在都有送 懲戒法院 組務法庭在處理外泄 罵一頓你知道嗎監察院 彈劾之後 你們才跟進對不對"},{"start":3764.514,"end":3765.235,"text":"你們現在處理的進度怎麼樣?現在?"},{"start":3788.493,"end":3816.74,"text":"就是都相關的案件那評鑑委員會議評鑑通過之後評鑑過了吧評鑑過了結論是什麼評鑑過了那就會做有建議就是要撤職這樣撤職那這些資料都會都會一併移送職務法庭來來並案審理啦並案審理OK好謝謝"},{"start":3826.806,"end":3829.089,"text":"好,那57案就改組結議,沒有意見通過58案測案那59案動10萬年,沒有意見通過動100萬年,沒有意見通過"},{"start":3843.919,"end":3869.955,"text":"好來60案改組結議沒有意見通過61案改組結議沒有意見通過62案改組結議沒有意見通過63案改組結議沒有意見通過64案凍結50萬年沒有意見就通過65案66案都是通刪我們就通案處理67案喂欸58案不是撤案了嗎蛤58案撤案"},{"start":3873.861,"end":3877.624,"text":"67案改組結議沒有意見通過68案改組結議沒有意見通過69案並委員結議動結束"},{"start":3901.079,"end":3902.26,"text":"蘇懷恩 有沒有意見"},{"start":3930.751,"end":3931.091,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3953.629,"end":3953.769,"text":"這五九案怎麼樣"},{"start":3981.74,"end":4004.865,"text":"現在送了一個59案怎麼樣59案他是凍結一百五萬,他們有溝通過,談好啦好,那現在就看88案88案是台灣高等法院的部分,整列50案,有沒有意見從台灣高等法院在所有案子,都是類似法題的1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11"},{"start":4011.417,"end":4018.802,"text":"每一案通常提12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20案,總是以那一手提,其他沒有意見台灣高等法院的預算來等一下"},{"start":4030.828,"end":4054.974,"text":"總總長"},{"start":4056.252,"end":4078.469,"text":"臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算"},{"start":4085.751,"end":4108.7,"text":"高院太惡劣了司法院人民對他要高度信任公務都不順位啊講話今天講的明天否定明天講的後天否定什麼事情?不要管什麼事啦當然要說什麼事你沒有人跟阿伯說你嘛現在大家都在吃光了請坐沒關係啦這個因為這個是右轉慢慢來右轉"},{"start":4113.786,"end":4130.985,"text":"好了,我的提案理由就是很簡單,這個用費太浪費,我要刪結果他們的人來跟我協調,一塊錢不能刪,只有兩個案子,只有剩二十萬、三十萬,我說我不要刪,我通過表決都沒關係"},{"start":4134.421,"end":4154.614,"text":"這麼傲慢,一塊錢都不能刪,怎麼會這樣?你不要知道從他的理由,昨天也是這樣,今天也是這樣,你背後理由講清楚吧,我知道你背後理由啦沒有,我有提案,我有提案,他不給刪了就這樣啊不是這樣吧?就這樣子,你問啊,不給刪了,一塊錢不給刪了回答一下回答啊,你回答啊回答啊一塊錢不給刪了"},{"start":4159.537,"end":4165.442,"text":"其實我們不給刪也是有理由的因為我們都是清潔物品汽油然後紙張、碳粉、辦公室維修還有人民重要的油資還有現在很重要的治安服務"},{"start":4184.591,"end":4185.272,"text":"主席"},{"start":4201.946,"end":4221.893,"text":"我們的原則也是不能爭裂的其實我們的油脂跟我們的碳粉到年底真的都是在奢欠所以我們才會跟委員說拜託不要殺真的是不能殺拜託嘛 你有拜託嘛 對不對你們是用拜託的方式嗎當然啊不是用命令的方式吧怎麼可以命令呢拜託都給我殺"},{"start":4225.235,"end":4246.836,"text":"我拜託他給我刪因為我覺得他浪費太多我拜託他給我刪幫我拜託一下好不好對啦這樣啦我們講清楚啦我們大家是草野祥業老委員嘛你今天很多部會都是你一個人堅持所以你的保安至少"},{"start":4248.115,"end":4271.3,"text":"一半以上,六七十案,包括經濟部、交通部等等都有那每一個都很尊重你昨天也請他們跟你溝通,包括經濟部以及交通部我們還是在這裡要解決啦那我想各部會沒有這種滿漢感受說一塊錢都不能刪當然是拜託"},{"start":4272.86,"end":4295.772,"text":"只是沒有跪求而已啊 拜託 都要去拜託嘛他說 我也算給你拜託這演技的問題大家都很清楚我不知道澳門的高院 這麼多澳門 一塊錢都不給我刪沒有啦 他是給你拜託啦我沒有拜託給我刪啦 因為我覺得浪費啊 我是看盡人民荷包啊那換我講話嘛對不對 你有說 你說這麼多話我還沒說完"},{"start":4301.665,"end":4320.799,"text":"所以這大家是互相的你這麼資深的委員總預算一定要趕快處理今天要第二輪了所以大家合意來談就合意來談有些部分本來就有通商現在政府聽起來連貪腐都要設限我是覺得這個國家有問題我應該這麼call"},{"start":4326.683,"end":4352.939,"text":"這個司法機關的探魂還要奢簽,要點兩顆金,金來金去,這又不是,這個岳國大不應該如此運作那主席長以後這個,你們的一三四獨立編列,你自己編的嘛司法院一三四你們自己編的,你自己編的要編好一點嘛通常司法院一三四很少人家參與,而且你自己編的你編阿公兩趟我們都不夠,你這個怎麼編的我都,你們自己也要檢討嘛"},{"start":4355.023,"end":4377.735,"text":"你通常騙來我們都沒有傳過來行政院都最近都沒有加出意見今天加出意見我們還是會基本上還是談戶的司法院因為司法獨立我們是非常尊重但是這裡面後面也有一個案子你是不是為了那個為了你的選區那個"},{"start":4381.715,"end":4382.335,"text":"事先答應人家後來做不到"},{"start":4402.99,"end":4404.971,"text":"這國有公共主力 國有公共建築物 怎麼可以無償提供給李一平來這邊 他們有活動停車場"},{"start":4423.546,"end":4424.447,"text":"在這裡不要講這個"},{"start":4445.64,"end":4453.127,"text":"如果你要講這個 那我就告訴你 白紙黑紙都有 他們吞回去 這樣子是司法院嗎 你告訴我 有啊 我就有啊"},{"start":4472.179,"end":4473.5,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4500.334,"end":4500.654,"text":"主席"},{"start":4515.514,"end":4518.615,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算部分：完整會議"},{"start":4530.16,"end":4531.861,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":4548.769,"end":4549.309,"text":"在前面"},{"start":4567.819,"end":4568.219,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4597.452,"end":4598.333,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4854.761,"end":4869.409,"text":"我講就好了,大家不要再講了,講太多了我講這樣好不好,他講21案啦,88案到108案,是不是21案?21案嘛,課長知道大家都不要再講了,我來講,大家同意就先這樣"},{"start":4881.901,"end":4909.738,"text":"好來88案到108案一共21案21案有4個案已經溝通測案那賴委員說這沒關係照常測案再來有8個案屬於通刪還是通案處理所以這要扣掉剩下9個案9個案那這個賴委員希望有2個案能夠有刪一些那7個案保留"},{"start":4912.83,"end":4913.551,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4930.034,"end":4944.046,"text":"好 那就不要再說了 好不好 就這樣等一下 我要了解是哪個案可以不 三是哪一個案嘛 兩個 哪兩個案三 來我們現在就討論 其他的就照這樣那現在要三的兩個 走下去來一個一個來 好不好好 來 88案"},{"start":4954.795,"end":4962.639,"text":"整理50萬年徵照辦理89案整理1000萬年徵照辦理那90案跟91案那賴委員已經同意撤案"},{"start":4983.28,"end":4995.65,"text":"測案沒有他是測案測案九十二案檢列三十萬年九十二案保留九十三案通商案我們就通案處理九十四案檢列三十萬年"},{"start":5013.135,"end":5031.015,"text":"編少一點啦 通信費用啊 保留啊 保留齁 少一點嘛 這有錢公共就好了啦好來 每一部會的通信費你都這樣搞 你這樣造成幾百個案子 都是你拜託你不要在裡面說閒話 起個案子算什麼啦 拜託"},{"start":5034.929,"end":5035.069,"text":"95案檢列22年"},{"start":5046.069,"end":5057.131,"text":"來來來 主席啊我再講一下 老柯一直說 你說一直扣帽子你拜託請你睜大眼睛看我每一個案子只有三 三十萬 二十萬 二十萬他一毛錢都不給我三 什麼東西啊二十萬 你在這裡一直講所以民法保留 保留啦二十萬三十萬不給我三"},{"start":5070.904,"end":5084.733,"text":"這基本上 司法院在編列預算的時候有問題主席長 你有上過他們嗎對啊行政院基本上都尊重司法院的預算"},{"start":5086.377,"end":5105.732,"text":"那顯然 民主黨你怎麼讓這種預算送出來連一個項目 三個十萬二十萬都沒辦法刪一定要照案通過那這顯然 核實編列啦沒差 沒那麼核實啦真的 這顯示司法院在預算編列上"},{"start":5107.694,"end":5134.73,"text":"沒有彈性而且有問題為什麼呢 因為院長講了連個10萬20萬都刪了之後會影響他業務的發展那不就說來抓舉手通過所以 主席長你評論一下這有沒有問題 你敢不敢講我尊重兩個兩院長因為五院平行按麥克風你坐那麼久平行我不能夠表示意見"},{"start":5135.716,"end":5161.041,"text":"我現在請你用專心實踐去教學以前好不好用專心實踐 你的看法呢 有沒有看過我們不要理你 有沒有看過沒有 我認為他們都核實編列了核實到這種程度 太核實了 還在說話我還是 他們是核實編列的不然我來講一下好不好我看 照孟德斯丘的三權分立民主政治"},{"start":5162.679,"end":5189.233,"text":"三百多年在英國的發展三百多年國會至上國會至上民主政治是國會至上審判獨立是司法權我們不會去干預司法獨立是指審判獨立啊我們沒有干預你們的這個審判所以大家不要用司法院好像是說我是獨立的好像就我跟你講在民主政治"},{"start":5190.909,"end":5194.783,"text":"國會代表民意 人民作主"},{"start":5196.175,"end":5224.353,"text":"所以國會是代表民意 你們在民意之前要謙卑 要記得我是覺得今天我是有感而發啦 阿我沒講這個工作就不行我們的國家 因為華人文化圈沒有民主政治嘛阿都受到黨國教育 都比較差 三綱五常 儒家三綱五常 軍委之綱 副委之綱 副委之綱會有奧慢 所以一定要記得 大家互相尊重"},{"start":5225.492,"end":5241.404,"text":"沒有說不能刪的啦法院院長還有預算不能刪預算錢是國會的錢啊審判我們不會去干預你但是在審判在預算啦還是要尊重立法院沒有說所謂什麼不能刪哪有不能刪"},{"start":5246.723,"end":5272.367,"text":"我還是要表示一下沒有所謂不能刪只是他說拜託不要刪太多這樣而已前面那講得很好除了黨國教育要不接受他有黨我知道包括民進黨但是他前面講得很好我要跟他敬禮"},{"start":5273.592,"end":5280.777,"text":"真的阿?你們要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?"},{"start":5302.455,"end":5322.376,"text":"我對剛剛委員長的這一席話我百分之百支持本來就是啊 這第一個第二個 也就是我剛剛 剛開始的時候為什麼請林佳龍 秘長來列席為什麼請 環境部的部長來列席本來就是啊"},{"start":5323.888,"end":5349.995,"text":"我剛剛還沒有禮貌糾正院長說對這個總統府副民長說讓他委屈了一點都不委屈怎麼委屈來請他先離屈請民長來哪會哪會委屈所以院長剛剛那句話基本上我真的全力支持也謝謝院長你是全民的"},{"start":5351.325,"end":5374.933,"text":"立法院長,謝謝好,謝謝,來,劉委員曾銘忠總召當講的部分,我在部分贊成啦那一開始,是這樣子啦當然院長講的話我們都充分尊重那一開始的時候不管你提到總統府秘書長或是環境部那我們覺得這樣不妥當所以我們也是在曾總召的建議之下趕快去進行協商那你也看到兩位首長都到了嘛"},{"start":5375.333,"end":5401.852,"text":"表示是尊重我們在立法院尤其是行使中央政府總預算的這個草野協商那有關於司法院的這個預算的部分因為預算就是歸立法院來審查所以剛剛曾明中一直說主計長要表示意見我想他們也都是互相尊重那我們也會看重我們自己的審查權當然呢他們提出來的預算多還是寡最後的決定還是在立法院但是我是要回歸到第二項就是剛剛那個賴氏堡委員所提的部分"},{"start":5402.672,"end":5426.721,"text":"那既然院長已經裁決有通刪的項目跟測案的項目那我們只是把go through一遍那所以我會建議就是是不是從94案開始往下來走那我剛剛有跟賴思寶委員建議就是說如果他放在一般行政下面的這樣一個大科目的話下面的項目結就不要去特別去堅持因為你所提到要刪的部分包括物品、租金、房屋建築、養護費"},{"start":5427.841,"end":5429.622,"text":"我希望大家耐心替我把話講完院長剛剛講那些話 大家都在怕破啊"},{"start":5452.904,"end":5457.151,"text":"除了你那個黨國 當然包括民進黨黨國 這樣就統一百分了 這個從94年開始"},{"start":5464.11,"end":5482.046,"text":"我刪什麼 30萬過來20萬過來20萬 一毛錢都不給我刪然後 所以你一定要給他過那我現在只剩7個案要保留不給我保留可以 通通給我刪 就該管了然後科目自行調整"},{"start":5483.787,"end":5495.194,"text":"主席 沒你這個問題 司法院你查 查不出這個幾十萬 我打死也不相信把頭看下來給我 我不相信我講一下來 我講一下好不好不是 他們不自行調整的條項他們不自行調整的條項"},{"start":5509.172,"end":5526.286,"text":"禮委員你繼續說 我的意思是說今天要處理可以按照我的意思我刪多少就刪多少因為沒有多少錢加起來大概一百多萬而已統統科目自行調整打這麼開 如果這樣不可以那只好去表決就這樣了好來 總統長"},{"start":5533.881,"end":5534.001,"text":"賴慈寶委員"},{"start":5553.649,"end":5577.336,"text":"就是連文書的費用都沒有辦法的這個情況下 是不是能夠讓他們尊潔調整那畢竟我們也是要尊重委員在立法院預算的審議權嘛好 來 那就總統要說幾句來我贊成的因為司法院司法院會議長今年113年度編多少總預算多少277億對啊 277億你那100"},{"start":5585.821,"end":5585.981,"text":"主席"},{"start":5609.571,"end":5630.769,"text":"跟國務委員報告一下 行政院都按照憲法徵修條文的規定都有提供互助意見 謝謝對司法院的預算都有提供互助意見等一下 你現在是請你聰明不是 他太聰明了 他能夠講只有講到這裡而已可以不可以啦"},{"start":5637.915,"end":5665.342,"text":"我只能夠按照憲法去做因為我行政院只能代表我代表行政院說我按照憲法徵修條文提老附助意見我們都有提每年都有提附助意見謝謝主席長就在那裡有時候要發揮功能你現在就不要用主席長的身份我從預算上請教你你現在不是主席長喔可不可以"},{"start":5666.496,"end":5689.107,"text":"可不可以 我一直問你嘛 因為現在涉及到問題 因為他的科目之間調整只有在他那個高院可以調嗎 會不會總預算裡面不能 他的如果是 他們是一個獨立的單位預算是不能夠調的如果是單位預算 不同的機關不能調高等委員 今年被錄到"},{"start":5691.235,"end":5705.648,"text":"報告委員那個整個高院是21億多所以說我們就建議剛剛講100萬是不是就讓我們在100萬範圍內在一般行政鄉下一般行政鄉下可以啦一般行政鄉下17億"},{"start":5711.16,"end":5712.381,"text":"三百一十五億對不對"},{"start":5735.396,"end":5735.416,"text":"因為這齁"},{"start":5757.148,"end":5784.162,"text":"因為你們不要生氣,這跟我們說沒關係因為如果我們一開始客戶自營調整,我們的思維就會比較寬廣一點嘛因為你這個是指令山的啊既然要客戶自營調整的話,客戶自營調整在臺高院17億裡面你算得多少在客戶自營調整的話,當然這個好辦啦我們講個總數啦,這樣比較快啦那台幣一百,台幣八五那些公共的"},{"start":5784.921,"end":5805.634,"text":"立委員 立委員 剛才說的17億來的齁 你聽我說人事費用是16億捏 他們真正能夠使用的這些行政費用只剩下1億左右 啊你就殺到280 太多了啦稍微縮小一點 稍微縮小一點沒有啦 就 這個案就先保留嘛 你不用浪費一個時間嘛沒有啦 沒有啦"},{"start":5813.055,"end":5815.759,"text":"剛剛老柯講說在一般行政向下那個又太窄"},{"start":5830.714,"end":5839.161,"text":"在高院的 單位預算下 調整因為是41跟後面的第14頁42是兩個不同的科目因為在預算法的規定要在同一個科目下要哪一個不同科目"},{"start":5858.015,"end":5867.665,"text":"好了,那這樣就﹐90案保留﹐95案保留﹐96案保留﹐97、98通案處理﹐99通案處理"},{"start":5873.018,"end":5884.124,"text":"好來 過來109保留101保留102通商 通案處理103測案104保留105通商 通案處理106測案107通商 通案處理108通商 通案處理 就這樣好 先這樣啦最後原因還是要解決喔好 謝謝 謝謝好啦 接下來考試驗"},{"start":5914.218,"end":5916.846,"text":"好了好了好了好了 休息一下 休息一會兒"},{"start":5925.952,"end":5926.072,"text":"主席"},{"start":6184.451,"end":6212.432,"text":"好 那我們就繼續這個時代力量黨團他有講他去那個委員會這個環保委員那他有講說對這裡沒有意見就跟他報告一下那現在我們就來進行考試院主管的部分那首先介紹列席的首長考試院秘書長劉建新先生"},{"start":6221.391,"end":6228.992,"text":"好,那我們就請大家看109案改組結議,沒有意見就通過110,並委員會結議辦理,提書面報告,沒有意見通過11,改組結議,沒有意見通過12,改組結議,沒有意見通過13,動10萬元,沒有意見通過14,動5萬元,沒有意見通過15,組結議有意見,來"},{"start":6248.116,"end":6269.647,"text":"114的部分我們同意但是想這邊就教一下那個祕書長 劉祕書長因為我們這邊有接貨到陳情就是說在11月6號的晚上大概9點的時候您這邊有來到這個財團法人平台基金會大樓就是大概是中正區中華路那個路段當時你有去參加一個會議那這邊有"},{"start":6272.728,"end":6295.686,"text":"文化部長史哲還有賴清德總統候選人競選辦公室的總幹事潘孟安先生他們有提供一些照片就是你們在這邊出入的一個照片因為現在目前面臨大選我們認為行政單位應該要恪守相關的行政中立那不曉得你這個會議討論的內容是什麼"},{"start":6298.528,"end":6298.708,"text":"鄭麗君董事長"},{"start":6313.025,"end":6332.25,"text":"鄭麗君董事長,討論什麼事情?公務還是私務?因為清平台這邊過去啦,就是過去這麼多年其實他們那邊都有做一些政策的討論那我跟鄭董事長因為也是私交的朋友所以那天是剛好過去找他,做一些所以沒有跟"},{"start":6332.99,"end":6347.169,"text":"潘孟安總幹事見面沒有見面那12月4號也在這邊同時出現第二次那這次還有包含這個我們的這個賴清德競選總部的主委姚立民那這個會議是跟他們一起開的嗎12月4號當天沒有"},{"start":6349.48,"end":6351.682,"text":"公務還是私務?所以你是拜訪誰?是在幫賴清德或王總準備辯論嗎?"},{"start":6365.097,"end":6392.863,"text":"我希望齁現在大選期間你們還是要注意一下你們的這些行政中立的一個界線不要讓外界有太多的這樣子的一個負面的社會觀感那我希望這個部分你們是不是請這個同仁來我們辦公室跟我們說明一下相關的一個內容好不好我已經說明了都說不出來了還要再說明嗎說明一下好不好因為兩個時間非常的接近齁然後而且"},{"start":6394.356,"end":6421.044,"text":"這個潘孟安總幹事跟我們這個姚立民主委其實也都在那個時間在各道出入那我們合理的懷疑你們是在進行相關競選的一個活動跟相關的政見的辯論的一個商討我們不需要有這樣的事情發生當然您現在的說法我們都尊重可是我想本於這個事實的釐清也要對社會大眾示意我希望你們還是說明清楚好不好OK好謝謝長長"},{"start":6423.786,"end":6447.913,"text":"秘書長你現在職稱是什麼我現在是考試院秘書長下班後呢下班後我還是考試院秘書長你最好不要被發現第三次你已經去跟他見過幾次面本來就跟這些 有一些朋友會做一些這個意見的討論"},{"start":6449.707,"end":6476.517,"text":"合適嗎因為其實就有很多時候這個也有跟一些相關的政策跟我們相關政策是會做一些意見交換那同時因為有時候是拜訪朋友交換選舉意見合適嗎我們不會交換選舉意見民主黨最好不要啦好不好這樣的消息出來對選情沒有幫助啦"},{"start":6478.993,"end":6479.733,"text":"116案主決議 117案主決議 有沒有意見"},{"start":6501.331,"end":6529.776,"text":"好那就照案通過118案主決議好照案通過119案主決議好照案通過接下來就是考選部那我介紹一下考選部部長許書強先生好那我們就進行120案改主決議沒有意見通過121案改主決議沒有意見通過122案主決議有沒有意見好那就照案通過"},{"start":6530.714,"end":6539.99,"text":"那接下來就全序部部長周作宏先生好那我請大家看123案改組決議沒有見通過124案凍結50萬年那"},{"start":6545.363,"end":6572.372,"text":"是不是可以見請凍結十萬元然後三個月書面報告那本案我們有瞭解陳晚會委員的關心是有關於鄉鎮市民代表會祕書的植物列等那我們已經在檢討當中我們可以在三個月內做一個建議陳委員那邊是比較在乎是什麼時候可以做成決定這個案子我們保留好不好陳晚會委員他堅持保留"},{"start":6572.892,"end":6573.912,"text":"124 保留125 改組結議126 撤案127 組結議128 組結議129 組結議129 組結議"},{"start":6602.145,"end":6604.086,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6622.267,"end":6626.809,"text":"公務延年保障及培訓委員會．主任委員堅證國家文官學院院長．培芝女士"},{"start":6642.95,"end":6644.471,"text":"公務連連退休府系基金管理局局長陳明賢先生"},{"start":6673.444,"end":6690.555,"text":"來 請大家看135案改組結議 沒有意見通過136組結議 作文就修正 沒有意見就修正通過好 那就考試院就到此告一段落 謝謝大家"},{"start":6715.892,"end":6716.172,"text":"現在我們進行"},{"start":6724.821,"end":6725.362,"text":"137、138、139都是通商"},{"start":6747.68,"end":6753.109,"text":"跟 抱歉抱歉 138 139 測案那我們就 測案就不討論啦齁137 蛤 來 有意見"},{"start":6756.314,"end":6763.758,"text":"137案是通案137就通案處理請看140案140案凍結1000萬年這個可不可以併委員會決議 委員會已經處理過了可不可以併委員會決議140併委員會決議辦理 沒有意見通過141 併委員會決議辦理 沒有意見通過"},{"start":6786.172,"end":6801.22,"text":"那142通3我們就通案處理143檢列1萬年143是院長的特別費我們建議保留啦好保留144改組結議沒有見通過145凍結10萬年沒有見通過都談好了嘛凍結10萬好不好"},{"start":6815.681,"end":6816.382,"text":"146 監裁院人權委員會最近報宅經常"},{"start":6836.88,"end":6862.509,"text":"對於原住民的一些評論也好﹖或是做法也好﹖讓原住民﹖我個人看﹖非常不愉快﹖比如說﹖之前有一個叫樓小雲的事件﹖後來大學校長又失言說﹖400年前臺灣是一個一不必體的社會﹖明明是在講原住民﹖亞美族青年的穿著服裝﹖"},{"start":6864.029,"end":6881.072,"text":"後來也被媒體不當的報導﹖一直到今年4月29日﹖臺中一中西環的字眼﹖臺大也發生了這樣的事情﹖所以我們覺得監察院的人權委員會在這個部分沒有什麼作為﹖真的沒有什麼作為﹖"},{"start":6883.518,"end":6893.552,"text":"人權委員會近年都有在努力 他們也給我們做一些說明 但是我覺得今天在審預算的時候"},{"start":6896.755,"end":6919.212,"text":"那麼多的事情關於原住民的事居然都提不出相關的資料了人權會已經成立了三年多到現在為止真的是沒有什麼作為所以我本來要刪他們的預算但是又覺得不給他們經費又不曉得他們就變成沒有事做那麼關於原住民的人權的重視"},{"start":6920.509,"end":6947.071,"text":"我只要在這裡再一次的表達讓大家重視那麼主政的人權會應該要透過這次我所提出的這些意見以後趕緊的急起直追把原住民的相關人權能夠看到你們真的是有在努力而且也有一些作為"},{"start":6950.704,"end":6952.305,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6972.014,"end":6978.057,"text":"市長,我講一下好不好,拜託一下,是病委會的凍結,然後再改一個組結議好,改組結議啦凍結的部分,病委會是決議辦理"},{"start":6984.537,"end":6984.557,"text":"凍結並委員會"},{"start":7015.477,"end":7016.378,"text":"1462 凍結束並委員會結辦禮 文注修正"},{"start":7040.759,"end":7041.74,"text":"委員會也有決議的 是不是並委員會處理"},{"start":7067.964,"end":7069.044,"text":"休息五分鐘"},{"start":7585.114,"end":7608.34,"text":"好來我們現在就繼續開會那進行法務部及所屬主管收住部分那我現在來介紹一下列席的所長首先介紹法務部部長蔡清祥先生接下來廉政署署長莊榮松先生接下來剿政署署長周輝煌先生"},{"start":7609.844,"end":7634.165,"text":"接下來最高檢察署司機官長吳怡銘先生再來是台灣高等檢察署司機官長陳玉萍女士再來是台灣新北地方檢察署主任檢察官江宥辰先生還有調查局局長王俊麗先生好介紹完畢那我們請大家"},{"start":7635.911,"end":7649.403,"text":"現在請大家看154案改為組結議 沒有意見通過155案動50萬年 沒有意見通過156案改組結議 沒有意見通過157案改組結議 沒有意見通過158案改156改組結議好不好156改啦158案改組結議 沒有意見通過156 157"},{"start":7663.985,"end":7664.585,"text":"159動50萬年沒有見通過"},{"start":7674.07,"end":7684.314,"text":"1600改組決議沒有見通過161改組決議沒有見通過162改組決議沒有見通過163改組決議沒有見通過164改組決議沒有見通過165改組決議沒有見通過166改組決議沒有見通過167改組決議沒有見通過168並委員會決議辦理提出報告沒有見通過"},{"start":7701.761,"end":7710.487,"text":"169改組結議沒有意見通過170組結議有沒有意見沒有意見就召喚通過171組結議沒有意見召喚通過172組結議有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過173組結議有沒有意見沒有召喚通過174組結議"},{"start":7727.366,"end":7727.386,"text":"179 測案"},{"start":7745.441,"end":7760.117,"text":"一八零組結一有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過一八一組結一有沒有意見沒有好那召喚通過一八二組結一有沒有意見沒有好召喚通過一八三組結一有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":7761.237,"end":7780.213,"text":"184組結議185組結議186組結議187組結議188組結議"},{"start":7780.82,"end":7799.544,"text":"沒有沒有意見 召喚通過189 主決議有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 召喚通過190 主決議有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 召喚通過191 主決議有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 召喚通過接下來就192 改主決議沒有意見通過193 改主決議沒有意見通過194 改主決議沒有意見通過195 並委員會決議辦理提書面報告沒有意見通過196 改主決議沒有意見通過"},{"start":7810.527,"end":7816.835,"text":"197 測案198 並委員會決議辦理提出並報告沒有意見通過199 並委員會決議辦理提出並報告沒有意見通過200 並委員會決議辦理提出並報告沒有意見通過201"},{"start":7827.912,"end":7835.475,"text":"改組決議沒有意見通過202通商通案處理203並委員結辦禮題書面報告沒有意見通過204通商科目通案處理205組決議有沒有意見沒有沒有意見就照案通過206動10萬年沒有意見通過"},{"start":7851.662,"end":7874.753,"text":"207改組協議那沒有建議通過208改組協議沒有建議通過209改組協議沒有建議通過210改組協議沒有建議通過211凍結一千萬元都比較多一點喔等一下沒有改組協議喔沒有沒有沒有改組協議要不要改不改要不要說明一下那暗網那個現在狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":7876.432,"end":7898.204,"text":"因為調查局在懲辦當中,是不是請調查局說明一下?請調查局說明一下我們跟邱委員報告,有關於通信監察的建置跟實施的情況基本上我們這個通信監察的這個網路的設備,它是實體隔離的,它跟外部其實是沒有聯繫的"},{"start":7899.565,"end":7923.753,"text":"那我們的同仁因為我們是負責執行端那所有的申請單位他都是向法院來請票不管說是刑事案件或者是國安案件我們根據法院核的那個票然後來key入這個相關的號碼那目前情況是這樣那有關於這個網路上出現這一個部分我請我們的那個自動安全處長他是專家我請他來做說明"},{"start":7924.133,"end":7933.61,"text":"你們相關的行政程序我們都了解但事實上那些資料已經外流了那留在網路上的資訊據我們這邊了解基本上有七到八成都是真實的"},{"start":7934.42,"end":7953.385,"text":"那現在最擔心就是說官方的這些相關監聽的資料還有這些重要政要的個人資料外洩因為我想各自的保護是現在治安及國安最重要的原則之一現在為什麼詐騙會那麼猖獗變民怨之首就是這些資料真真假假"},{"start":7954.285,"end":7973.927,"text":"7分真3分假或是5分真5分假才會造成這個詐騙成功率非常高的一個問題那現在這個問題已經嚴重到到我們的行政單位甚至是勤制單位的監聽的資訊都已經外流了那相關預防的措施你現在要講的都是你們現在在做的事情相關預防的措施跟後面"},{"start":7974.688,"end":7997.97,"text":"的這個查處還有源頭的管理跟追蹤這個要怎麼樣的防止這才是我們現在關心的好不好我希望針對這個部分說明那你們至於最高檢或是地協署這邊在偵辦的這個偵查不公開的部分我們都尊重但是目前的這個現況要怎麼樣去做防止包含你們要跟速發部還是說相關的法治單位怎麼樣去合作怎麼樣讓"},{"start":8000.213,"end":8006.084,"text":"讓國人能夠針對這件事情給他們一個回應跟說明我覺得這個是我們現在比較關心的"},{"start":8016.238,"end":8036.357,"text":"主席還有各位委員大家好我想這個事件我們大家都不樂見那在這邊特別跟委員說明一下就是說其實在這件事情發生第一時間那我們具體接到相關的訊息以後當然我們第一時間要做什麼我們第一時間就要看這個東西的內容然後我們來判斷這到底是怎麼一回事然後我們必須對社會對媒體做"},{"start":8039.159,"end":8062.332,"text":"迅速的回應我覺得這是我們必須應該做的事情那今天發生這個事情大概基本上我們從我們我們這個執法單位的角度來看大概就只有兩種可能第一個可能就是所謂的假訊息的散佈第二個可能就是所謂的這個我們的內部系統遭到害侵剛剛委員也特別提到這一點我想我就這兩部分來說明第一個"},{"start":8063.112,"end":8085.5,"text":"那我們在第一時間為什麼大家為什麼覺得很奇怪說我們判斷它是一個認知作戰我想在認知作戰裡面通常我們在講假訊息的時候那通常假訊息大家都耳熟能詳就是惡假害然後違反相關的法律但是我們當我們談到這個所謂認知作戰的程式的時候它又不一樣它的訊息出來它可能會造成我們簡單問一下今天是審議"},{"start":8087.381,"end":8088.301,"text":"立法院黨團協商：立法院黨團協商．"},{"start":8110.666,"end":8128.647,"text":"任職作戰的態樣是很相近的第二個他這個散播的操作手法我們在講任職作戰的時候他們通常都是在在境外拋出一個假訊息然後在國內進行發酵可能有好幾層次的一個傳播那他選擇的國內的是選擇了爆料公社"},{"start":8129.647,"end":8155.06,"text":"報料公社為什麼沒有繼續的在所謂的訊息農場在所謂的社群平台繼續散佈因為它已經引起了媒體的重視所以它已經達到了它的效果所以其實我們後續觀察它在第二天的時候在暗網的相關資料就已經下架了就已經下架了我想這個是可以好 針對跟預算有關的就好簡單歐要今天不是執行啦好 了解謝謝院長"},{"start":8157.061,"end":8179.066,"text":"那我主要還是要最後說明一點我們執行通訊監察我們是依照通行監察保障法那這個法律在我們的執行單位來講的話其實我們接到的是法院的這個監察書監察書上面的資料其實很多在個資上面都具識別化"},{"start":8179.326,"end":8179.606,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8198.259,"end":8222.375,"text":"有關於這個資安但任何人都不能保證說是絕對百分之百那雖然說這個事情我們基本上我們說明說是一個認知作戰但是就資安的部分我們仍然在做這個不斷的在做清點在做檢討那這個部分是我們要來強化這個資安的部分我就這個部分委員關心的在特別在補充說明"},{"start":8225.257,"end":8228.158,"text":"法治委員會到此告一段落"},{"start":8255.441,"end":8283.896,"text":"好接下來請慧環慧環是哪一個部會先來來慧環哪一個部會誰先來三個部會資料給我就會宣布一下慧環是哪一個部會先到勞動部勞動部勞動部先到好來"},{"start":8286.344,"end":8288.305,"text":"勞動部、衛生、福利、環境部"},{"start":8311.754,"end":8312.216,"text":"反正部長還要過來這邊換嗎?"},{"start":8326.104,"end":8326.884,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8410.97,"end":8433.776,"text":"各位先進我們就繼續開會啦齁好繼續開會那現在進行勞動部主管那介紹列席的所長勞動部部長許平春女士好來現在請大家看第一案第一案改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":8435.936,"end":8458.323,"text":"第2案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第3案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第4案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第5案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第6案 改組決議 沒有見通過第7案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第8案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第9案 改組決議 沒有見通過"},{"start":8460.183,"end":8487.946,"text":"第十案並委員會結議辦理沒有見通過第十一案改組結議沒有見通過第十二案並委員會結議辦理沒有見通過第十三案並委員會結議辦理沒有見通過第十四案改組結議沒有見通過第十五案改組結議沒有見通過第十六案改組結議沒有見通過第十七案改組結議沒有見通過院長講一下好來十七案好謝謝就是勞動部"},{"start":8489.827,"end":8513.989,"text":"要請部長就是社會上現在有這樣的訴求跟聲音不外是對於現行勞保年金的不信任還有對勞退心智不滿意那最重要就是對於老年退休保障雙重不足的擔憂那臺灣勞工普遍低薪進而影響退休金的勤勉"},{"start":8515.462,"end":8523.772,"text":"未來即將面對繳多、少領、延後退的勞保年金的改革方案甚至還要繼續接受僅有6%的僱主的提撥率"},{"start":8529.932,"end":8552.043,"text":"一個月即便領三、四萬的勞工翻一下他們個人的賬戶的提撥累計那金額實在是少的可以所以無論是年金改革或是勞退的心智政府始終只敢要求勞工付出更多連政府撥補都是出自於人民的納稅錢"},{"start":8553.984,"end":8581.578,"text":"卻不敢要求企業老闆負擔更多所以在這裡先求有再求好我們請勞動部一定要注意注重我們勞工的心聲那這一次雖然改組決議但是我們還是要強調勞動部應該針對提高僱主提撥勞退比例議案競訴邀集相關的代表召開公聽會收集相關意見"},{"start":8584.02,"end":8601.091,"text":"請務必如期提供 請部長回應一下謝謝委員的建議 那個部分有關勞工的權益 我們會來努力 謝謝好 那就接下來 請看18案18案 被委員接辦禮 沒有意見通過19案 被委員會接辦禮 沒有意見通過第20案 凍結100萬年 那這個部分"},{"start":8610.255,"end":8611.861,"text":"報告主席那個改動節20萬已經簽名了"},{"start":8617.034,"end":8645.003,"text":"來改動結二十五案沒有見通過二十一案並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過二十二案改組決議沒有見通過二十三案改組決議沒有見通過二十四案改組決議沒有見通過二十五案改組決議沒有見通過二十六案改組決議沒有見通過二十七案改組決議沒有見通過二十八案改組決議沒有見通過二十九案改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":8646.664,"end":8674.663,"text":"30案凍結10萬年沒有意見通過31案主決議有沒有意見?遵照辦理好 照案通過32案主決議有沒有意見?遵照辦理好 照案通過33案主決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過34案主決議有沒有意見?遵照辦理好 照案通過35案主決議遵照辦理好 照案通過36案主決議遵照辦理照案通過37案主決議遵照辦理照案通過38案主...啊 怎麼樣?"},{"start":8677.779,"end":8683.143,"text":"你認為國內的低薪成為國安問題,你作為勞動部的部長,你有沒有什麼想法?"},{"start":8706.942,"end":8715.769,"text":"陳總長,其實勞動部在我們全管範圍,我們一直很努力。這8年來,就我們自己所主管的基本工資,我們8年連續調升。"},{"start":8719.332,"end":8719.492,"text":"主席"},{"start":8734.386,"end":8736.387,"text":"８立法院黨團協商８公務預算部分８公務預算部分８"},{"start":8759.205,"end":8773.893,"text":"市長適用最低工資法的現在的勞工大概多少人報告委員大概240萬左右總數勞工有多少總數受付勞工的話大概900萬那您這一次的最低工資法通過會有效益嗎"},{"start":8785.98,"end":8810.16,"text":"報告委我覺得一定會有幫助一定會有效益因為這幾年雖然沒有最低工資法我用基本工資的審議辦法我們也連續8年調升而且調升的幅度我看崗委報告調升的幅度是非常非常大的那未來的這個最低工資法因為它整個審議的制度更健全程序更明確審議的指標也更清楚"},{"start":8810.88,"end":8813.541,"text":"民團都不看好 我也不看好 有少數民團 有很多勞團肯定我們 像勞政 全產種"},{"start":8834.085,"end":8850.035,"text":"他們都看得很清楚 那個也一再他們對這個法律要通過都很期待謝謝委員總召你們的支持讓這個法草野的委員支持讓我們法輪功順利通過我們不支持啊比如說條件不得低於7年度CPI我們不支持"},{"start":8850.775,"end":8866.302,"text":"報告總召這個部分其實我其實那天在委員會有跟您說過有時候我們必須在一個法你要把它定死說不能第一某個其實在現在世界各主要國家的有最低公司法沒有這樣定那其實今天也有老團提出有"},{"start":8870.664,"end":8894.633,"text":"今天有勞團說是不是用這樣子說不得定某個指標它說不見得對勞工有利所以我是覺得我們其實以這幾年的審議我們的經驗跟總統報告我們其實重視在疫情我們全數都反映我們的CPI甚至在參佐GDP等等條幅都比這個CPI還高你的問題大家都自己講出來了"},{"start":8897.179,"end":8908.821,"text":"疫情期間就用政府的政府補助嘛 你也講了嘛 對不對所以意思是說 政總長的話就用不得已低於前年CPI是對的"},{"start":8910.535,"end":8933.493,"text":"只是你不敢 不敢答應對不對不是 這個報告總長 因為我們有時候法律定在那邊比如說遇到特殊的情況 你少個一塊錢都不行那一個法這麼硬的話 我覺得不見得是好啦世界最主要的國家幾乎都是給我們審議委員更多的談席去參佐當時的情況來決定這個公司啦"},{"start":8938.12,"end":8939.1,"text":"現在請大家看38案38案主決議 沒人見通過"},{"start":8969.062,"end":8982.949,"text":"三十九案 主決議 有沒有意見遵照辦理好 照案通過四十案 主決議文字修正這個有文字修正有文字修正主決議 文字修正那沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":8984.731,"end":8985.892,"text":" 41 案主決議有沒有見?"},{"start":8985.892,"end":9006.851,"text":"遵照辦理好 照案通過42 案遵照辦理好 照案通過43 案主決議有做文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過44 案主決議遵照辦理好 照案通過45 案撤案46 案主決議有做文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過47 案主決議遵照辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":9008.137,"end":9024.342,"text":"那再來就48案 並委員會結一半 理沒有見通過49案 通3案 我們就通案處理50案 改組結一 理沒有見通過51案 並委員會結一半 理沒有見通過52案 並委員會結一半 理沒有見通過53案 減列150萬元改動保險業務150萬元"},{"start":9036.087,"end":9037.389,"text":"部長啊 這個不要凍結了啦 給你三個二十萬啦"},{"start":9065.102,"end":9066.744,"text":"剪列二十萬 科目自行調整"},{"start":9075.302,"end":9095.255,"text":"50案 通商案 通案處理55案 改為主決議 沒有見通過56案 凍結10萬年 沒有見通過57案 改主決議 沒有見通過58案 通商案 通案處理59案 並委員結辦理 沒有見通過60案 改主決議 沒有見通過61案 改主決議 沒有見通過62案 改主決議 沒有見通過63案 增累500萬年"},{"start":9103.755,"end":9106.563,"text":"遵照辦理遵照辦理"},{"start":9110.285,"end":9119.11,"text":"64 案改組結議沒有見通過65 案改凍結10萬年沒有見通過66 案改組結議沒有見通過67 案並委員結辦理沒有見通過68 案也是賴委員的 減列100萬年這邊改凍5%減20萬"},{"start":9144.349,"end":9152.299,"text":"簡略二十萬科目自行調整通過六十九案通商沒有見通案處理七十案改組協議"},{"start":9154.434,"end":9167.061,"text":"沒有意見通過70案主席亦作文書修正沒有意見就修正通過72案主席亦有沒有意見就照案通過接下來我們就換衛福部好 謝謝"},{"start":9216.886,"end":9226.433,"text":"現在進行衛生福利部主管在這邊介紹列席的首長衛生福利部部長薛瑞炎先生"},{"start":9228.955,"end":9232.557,"text":"七十三案改組決議,沒有見通過"},{"start":9252.253,"end":9274.09,"text":"那就是這一屆快要即將結束也沒看到衛福部針對我們一些工業區做流行病學調查那在明年的預算好像也沒看到那今天就是因為環境部環境部已經要把偏鄉汽機車減量"},{"start":9279.023,"end":9280.203,"text":"《中華民國1年度中央政府總預算案》"},{"start":9301.147,"end":9301.747,"text":"中央政府總預算"},{"start":9320.874,"end":9347.222,"text":"那你長期的怠惰啊讓這個供應區附近的這個疾病啊癌症這個癌症發生率死亡率一直增加降不下來然後你現在環境部又要去做這個增量可以抵換那這個怎麼說呢那麻煩衛福部跟環境部去溝通他們如果增量一定要有"},{"start":9348.403,"end":9373.522,"text":"公信科學的證明可以去增量這樣可以嗎?你們也要關心這個事情可以嗎?如果是屬於環境部業務的部分的話那你們流行病學調查要做阿對阿我們就是要針對因為過去的話在做所謂的流行病學調查收集的資料都是全國性的並沒有特別說對哪一種那你們全國性就看不出來阿這做"},{"start":9374.838,"end":9376.959,"text":"陳委員 我們盡量集中回到預算好不好是回到預算 今天就是預算的問題 他們就是不做啊"},{"start":9396.852,"end":9397.692,"text":"科技預算我們就可以來做安排"},{"start":9427.25,"end":9452.675,"text":"好 那請大家看74案改組決議沒有見通過75案改組決議沒有見通過76案凍結案 是不是 謝委員 是不是我們並委員會決議辦理對好 76案並委員會決議辦理好 74案通山 我們通案處理78案檢列3百萬年 賴大委員"},{"start":9455.444,"end":9481.105,"text":"那個是不是委員同意我來 委員同意那個改山一百萬好 改山 改為山 減列一百萬年好 那沒有意見通過七十九案 也是代大委員的 來我也是同意 同意三五十萬 二十改為減列五十萬 那沒有意見通過都自行調整啦好 自行 科目都自行調整啦齁來 八十案改組結議 沒有意見通過"},{"start":9484.041,"end":9487.183,"text":"來﹖81案改組結議沒有見通過﹖82改組結議沒有見通過﹖83案凍結60萬元﹖要不要併委員接辦禮"},{"start":9494.009,"end":9497.131,"text":"委員改組結議改組結議沒有見通過84案改組結議沒有見通過85案改組結議沒有見通過86案改組結議沒有見通過87"},{"start":9515.279,"end":9516.92,"text":"衛福部要不要編預算去做普遍肺腺癌篩檢?"},{"start":9529.46,"end":9557.068,"text":"現在這還是全國性的就是說這些低劑量的CT這一個部分的話我們是可以逐步的再夠擴大但是我們不一定會說針對哪一個地方可不可以先針對工業區鄰近的先做可以嗎因為這樣的目標不是那麼明確那你是住在北部對不對你就不重視現在中共業區附近的污染啊我家是在南部啦"},{"start":9558.052,"end":9558.112,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":9582.964,"end":9584.465,"text":"有限的資源一定是全國普遍去做,如果發現說哪一個地區有比較高的話,我們就要做處理"},{"start":9601.781,"end":9624.879,"text":"要先骨片做了之後 如果是工業區的人那邊的確是問題比較多的 我們再深入去做啦那邊癌症比較多難道不應該先做嗎那邊空氣污染PM2.5比較高難道不應該先做嗎PM2.5是一級致癌物欸一級致癌物欸PM10也是一級致癌物欸 不該先做嗎好"},{"start":9628.312,"end":9652.193,"text":"這個理由不夠強嗎換劉思芳委員講話 因為她有舉手了對 因為我也在中南部我當然會非常重視剛剛陳委員講的這個聲音我建議部長是這樣回應就是說有關於工業區附近有一些譬如說致癌的物質比較強的話在衛福部的立場上面你們當然會配合科技部但是衛福部的主管也有人會去出席全國科技會議"},{"start":9653.234,"end":9653.674,"text":"好 我們回到預算好不好"},{"start":9678.438,"end":9693.766,"text":"回到預算我們就請88案就3減50萬賴大偉就3減50萬 減裂50萬賴委員不換 沒賴大偉沒有意見就通過89案改組決議 沒有意見通過90案改組決議 沒有意見通過91 92 93 94 95 96 97都是改組決議 沒有意見就全部通過啦好啦 98案"},{"start":9707.694,"end":9712.297,"text":"凍結98案改組結議沒有見通過99案凍結10萬元並101案那101案也是改凍結10萬元那這兩案就沒有見通過100案就改組結議那沒有見通過好來"},{"start":9737.5,"end":9760.93,"text":"102 組結議104 組結議"},{"start":9762.442,"end":9762.962,"text":"105 文字修正106 組結議107 組結議108 組結議"},{"start":9781.884,"end":9785.107,"text":"一百零九組結議一百一一零組結議一一一組結議一一二組結議一一三組結議"},{"start":9807.659,"end":9817.902,"text":"好 那就文字修正修正通過已經有文字修正 那委員也同好 那就文字修正就修正通過有文字修正沒有就修正通過"},{"start":9836.907,"end":9846.051,"text":"市長 特殊工業區建議還是要趕快做流行病學調查如果說工業區那麼多然後CT的檢查還是要優先排我想衛福部你們都是專業"},{"start":9866.499,"end":9878.279,"text":"我們中南部如果早期發現早期治療這樣子也可以顧全很多家庭避免這種後續疾病嚴重發生的時候影響家計"},{"start":9880.336,"end":9880.516,"text":"主席"},{"start":9902.22,"end":9923.792,"text":"一二二主決議有沒有意見 遵照辦理 照案通過一二三主決議 遵照辦理 照案通過一二四主決議有文字修正沒有意見就修正通過一二五主決議 遵照辦理 照案通過一二六主決議 遵照辦理 照案通過一二七主決議 遵照辦理 照案通過一二八主決議 保留"},{"start":9927.013,"end":9928.214,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9953.893,"end":9957.614,"text":"我們建議修正文字傳公眾人物於公開場所稀釋加熱菸這樣修正"},{"start":9967.591,"end":9969.312,"text":"副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長"},{"start":9982.737,"end":10009.498,"text":"改成不要寫名字,但是等一下還有另外一個案子,你們要特別在那邊寫名字等一下啦,等一下啦,這個我先改一下先文字修正好不好,OK好,130組決議,那文字修正,那沒有意見就修正通過來,131組決議有沒有意見建議是修正文字有修正文字"},{"start":10011.021,"end":10011.802,"text":"有修正文字"},{"start":10034.198,"end":10048.345,"text":"好 民運建築室 暫停一下啦暫停一下啦你怎麼不問薛一鳳書記長 這個都是他蓋章的 你要尊重一下132啦 131啦131啦 131啊 131啊他說有修改文字 有嗎不是 你那是132啦 131 現在"},{"start":10068.924,"end":10069.124,"text":"131保留132組決議"},{"start":10090.077,"end":10092.579,"text":"132組決議文字修正,那就修正通過133組決議有沒有意見文字修正"},{"start":10119.124,"end":10142.15,"text":"部長 有關這個新冠的這些打了疫苗那有些死啦 有些重傷害我記得我在總諮詢的時候你答應我兩年內要處理阿你到底什麼時候要處理完阿那個六千 六千 那六千件在當時總諮詢的時候那六千件已經處理了"},{"start":10144.78,"end":10169.233,"text":"對 我們黨團開了六七次記者會啦 你在總諮詢答應我們了 那什麼時候要處理完人家死了死 傷了傷 那就趕快委員報告我們大概最晚明年九月底前天可以申完 那我目前大概每兩個禮拜會審查一次那每次會審查大概一百五十個案件 那我們大概一個月大概可以審查三百案"},{"start":10171.836,"end":10198.181,"text":"目前已經處理了大概6、7千案大概7千案左右那還有6千案對不對不不不我們總共大概是9千案我的各位委員報告我當時在總質詢答應的時候那時候就是6千件所以6千件已經處理的差不多但是陸陸續續後面還有新增的案子所以我們剛剛我們同仁說到明年9月大概可以把接下來賴委員有舉手來好 謝謝"},{"start":10200.262,"end":10209.712,"text":"委員長和各位先進為了一個選民不亂就是六千案裡面的"},{"start":10210.902,"end":10233.835,"text":"他送進去喔 超過一年啊 沒有人理啊很可憐的 他就說他很弱勢 你說六千的處理完了 結果敢問政總召喚咧 這樣欺騙他就來找我 我們傳給你們 就都沒消息他一年多了 放一年多了 一年多了 他腦部啪啪的死去啊"},{"start":10235.253,"end":10238.254,"text":"一年多不是新增了,已經放一年多了,舊的,舊的,歸案"},{"start":10259.167,"end":10259.407,"text":"主席"},{"start":10289.07,"end":10289.25,"text":"那就謝謝了"},{"start":10308.078,"end":10335.311,"text":"總統最後一句了齁我覺得剛才部長回答得非常好我希望你的回答就是真的針對疫苗打了已經往生死掉的這些人真的按照你講的你的承諾去把他簽一遍一定超過一年的超過一段時間快點給人家啦到底怎麼樣結果趕快出來要先講清楚不然這樣謝謝人家很辛苦又拖久了很辛苦的啦"},{"start":10337.21,"end":10337.65,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":10359.912,"end":10372.791,"text":"修正文字沒有意見就修正通告135也是跟剛才133一樣就是疫苗的受害者的審議我們可以"},{"start":10374.674,"end":10398.471,"text":"就是說在這個依法的這個上面做稍微的修正但是我們還是希望說整個疫苗受害者不只是死亡的在施打疫苗其實還有一些症狀性的受害者那也希望我們衛福部可以重寬重塑認定緊述給予所有疫苗施打的受害者給他們救助"},{"start":10399.865,"end":10421.662,"text":"曾仲章其實部長我覺得政府不應該替或者說這些受害者太多的計較了我沒有記錯的話有因果關係的比例很低對不對 多少 講一下如果確定因果關係的多少我請問"},{"start":10423.993,"end":10450.319,"text":"那有因果關係的比例大概確實是比較低 不過因為他們如果有5%左右但是我們現在的補償是如果沒有辦法判斷有因果關係的時候還會補啊你叫衛福部嘛 你不要跟這些人受害者太多的計較貝兆宜你們對高端啊 太好啦"},{"start":10451.803,"end":10477.424,"text":"他疫苗走不出去連最近我給你調的資料流感疫苗啊部長流感疫苗我們採購幾家四家四家講一下東陽、高端、國光還有一個是賽諾菲對我重複一下啦他就是有申請了嘛"},{"start":10479.122,"end":10489.845,"text":"國光 戰鬥會 東洋 跟高端 對不對那為什麼人家不打高端 人在哪裡這四家喔 在採購法排序的話"},{"start":10499.631,"end":10519.785,"text":"順序你們唸一下 民眾很清楚第一名當然是國光 第二是塞諾菲 第三是東陽 第四是高端高端 現在原名叫高端有人要煮就好了喔那好事好了啦沒有啦 目前沒有出案了所以你們對趙宜 我要講個結論對趙宜蔡政府百般客戶高端"},{"start":10529.895,"end":10549.757,"text":"啊 從那個疫苗 那個當時的這些COVID-19的疫苗的購買 到現在的流感疫苗的購買百般啦對高端有夠好 但是對一般民眾受害者 你的因果關係還個位數"},{"start":10551.994,"end":10576.803,"text":"阿 要等那麼久部長 你能不能同意阿第一個 剛剛我們署長講了嘛 從速從寬嘛 從簡阿 是不是這樣這個就是我們現在努力的目標 所以剛剛有報告過其實我們現在每個月的 開舊審查案件的時候已經是非常 非常加速你現在叫加速阿 結果你的有因果關係還是 那個 集團署現在比例多少"},{"start":10577.883,"end":10605.91,"text":"有因果關係大概是5%左右 不過我們確實就是用重寬重縮重減的一個方式來做一些核定 不過我們還是要尊重專家的一些還是要尊重專業的一個意見 來做一些判斷 是不是有因果關係好我不是質詢 我請教 因為有醫生告訴我說今年的流感疫苗 抓不到"},{"start":10607.085,"end":10612.411,"text":"跟委員報告目前疫苗的採購大概都是參考世界衛生組織公佈的疫苗株"},{"start":10631.769,"end":10654.094,"text":"跟今年的一個感染的病毒株是相符合的這個在我們實驗室有做過相關的一些認證所以今年如果有打疫苗的話就可以有效的防止今年的一個流感的疫情好那我們接下來謝謝大家我們現在1359剛才就是說修正通過嘛我們就修正通過1361有沒有意見修正"},{"start":10658.198,"end":10680.557,"text":"有修正,文字修正,沒有意見就修正通過修正的部分只有加四個字,報告主席只有加四個字,就是在原要求衛福部文字修正通過就好啦好來,137主決議,有沒有意見?遵照辦理好,沒意見就通過"},{"start":10682.498,"end":10698.424,"text":"138 主決議 遵照辦理 沒意見 召喚通過139 主決議 遵照辦理 召喚通過140 主決議 遵照辦理 召喚通過141 主決議 文書修正 沒意見 修正通過142 主決議 文書修正 沒意見 修正通過143 主決議 文書修正 沒意見 就修正通過144 主決議"},{"start":10705.246,"end":10717.592,"text":"文書修正沒有意見就修正通過145主決議文書修正沒有意見就修正通過146主決議文書修正沒有意見就修正通過147主決議文書修正沒有意見就修正通過148主決議"},{"start":10726.104,"end":10726.484,"text":"主決議主決議"},{"start":10748.326,"end":10750.307,"text":"提案人看一下提案人看一下"},{"start":10777.759,"end":10800.827,"text":"好來 那就暫時保留啦齁 這個暫時保留 等一下回頭再來好來149案主決議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過150主決議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過151主決議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過152主決議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過153主決議 有做文作修正 沒有意見就修正通過154主決議"},{"start":10803.359,"end":10805.184,"text":"有文字修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":10812.668,"end":10815.129,"text":"有文字的修正那大家沒有意見的話我們就修正通過"},{"start":10841.582,"end":10841.602,"text":"162組結議163組結議164組結議165組結議166組結議167組結議168組結議169組結議164啊"},{"start":10869.872,"end":10870.292,"text":"我們接受很多的團體的陳情"},{"start":10886.852,"end":10886.912,"text":"169主席"},{"start":10911.462,"end":10913.143,"text":"有修正文字沒有意見就修正通告"},{"start":10930.204,"end":10947.316,"text":"173 組結議遵照辦理來 召喚通過那接下來 174 改組結議沒有見通過175 檢列賴大委員檢列185改凍結百分之五委員同意改凍結百分之五好那175 就改為凍結百分之五提書面報告提書面報告好 來176"},{"start":10958.904,"end":10979.715,"text":"修正 改組決議啦176 蛤 是不是 併委員會決議辦理就好可以啦 好 已經改啦 組決議好 來 沒有見通過177 通商 通案辦理178 通商 通案辦理179 通商 通案辦理180 併委員會決議辦理 沒有見通過181 凍結五分之一改組決議 這是併委員會決議辦理 已經改了嗎"},{"start":10989.459,"end":10991.32,"text":"改組協議182通3科目通案辦理183並委員會協議辦理184檢定100萬年"},{"start":11005.79,"end":11016.396,"text":"改檢列10萬年沒有見通過185通3我們就通案處理186並委員會結議辦理沒有見通過187並委員會結議辦理沒有見通過188通3我們通案辦理189改組結議沒有見通過190通3通案辦理191"},{"start":11033.787,"end":11039.89,"text":"剪列80萬元有沒有意見改為剪列20萬元沒有意見就通過192案改凍結藥裝管理工作50萬元沒有意見通過"},{"start":11051.616,"end":11056.657,"text":"193改組結議沒有見通過194改組結議沒有見通過195改組結議沒有見通過196改組結議沒有見通過197通三通案處理198通三通案處理199減類100萬年有沒有意見改組結議啦好不好"},{"start":11078.054,"end":11081.079,"text":"總共才900多萬你檢列100萬怎麼活得下去兩組決議"},{"start":11089.648,"end":11107.332,"text":"因為昨天有去委員辦公室那邊有溝通,辦公室這邊是說因為這個是跟速發部的案子是相關的,所以委員這邊是說是希望能夠保留速發部已經投訂了"},{"start":11110.516,"end":11129.543,"text":"蘇發部已經合理沒有所謂到外國去備援了嘛用蘇發部的講法那就是這個備援系統一定要在國內不可以到國外沒有錯蘇發部確實明年度的預算就是在國內"},{"start":11139.506,"end":11155.874,"text":"在通案上面也有處理是改組協議嗎沒有改組協議就是裡面的文字就是並跟那個訴發部一樣寫法啦好那就改組協議好沒有建議通過200就通案處理怎麼樣那個200案跟199是同樣的都是那個訴發部的計畫"},{"start":11166.121,"end":11174.369,"text":"但是他因為通商就通案處理他因為屬於通商的科目那201組決議有做文件修正沒有意見就修正通過202組決議有沒有意見要遵照辦理"},{"start":11181.215,"end":11182.996,"text":"203屬於通商科目204改組結議205改組結議206改組結議207組結議有做文字修正208組結議有遵照辦理"},{"start":11205.453,"end":11214.758,"text":"209 檢列八十萬元有沒有改?委員同意改檢列十萬元209 改為檢列十萬元 沒有見通過210 改組結役 沒有見通過211 有沒有改?有修正是凍結兩百萬"},{"start":11230.868,"end":11231.948,"text":"212、213兩個都是通3,我們就通案處理"},{"start":11257.559,"end":11275.515,"text":"1213我不同意部長我想就教一下這個是大概針對那個托嬰中心的監視錄影設備的設置管理要求要強制設定可是這個因為我們現在的法令沒有監管監管雲的這個相關的法律的依據"},{"start":11276.055,"end":11299.05,"text":"那這個還有一些他們這些幼教業者老師他們有一些他們在個人的肖像或者是資安保護上他們有一些不同的意見那對於這個因為這些監視攝影的設備的設置齁其實你們的管理還是要求業者自行管理所以在管理上其實還是有一些漏洞那針對這個部分業者的意見你們這邊怎麼看"},{"start":11300.974,"end":11317.354,"text":"這個部分其實是這樣,第一個就是說,我們要保護的這些幼兒,因為他自己不會說明說他有沒有受到一些虐待或不當對待所以我們還是基於保護這個幼兒的一個角度出發"},{"start":11318.115,"end":11345.242,"text":"那第二個過去許多案件那的確有設了監視器但是當案件有這種投訴出來的時候我們去做調查的時候就調不到他的影像所以我們才說希望就是說這些的話能夠上傳到一個雲裡面去的話那就能夠代為做這種影像的保存而不會就是說出事的時候要調查他保存的那個期限"},{"start":11348.845,"end":11367.443,"text":"但是對於他這個4-603號解釋因為現在其實老實講他們這些脫陰脫幼的幼教業者他們其實在招聘師資的這個缺工的問題是非常大那這會不會造成一些寒蟬效應因為他們包含就是說他們認為他們的隱私權跟人性尊嚴他們應該要受到憲法22條的保障"},{"start":11369.105,"end":11392.958,"text":"那對於他們這個實際的監管雲端儲存因為現在其實資訊外流甚至駭客的問題非常嚴重那這個是他們會對於他們從業人員會擔心的在這方面有沒有相關的保護機制或是相關的配套機制還是後面的這個針對雲端資料監管的法令的相關的一個修法的討論"},{"start":11394.018,"end":11415.641,"text":"這部分的話跟委員報告其實在法律上面都已經規定說這一些都必須要設這些監視器監視器是一個資料的保存保護但是那個保存就是我剛剛解釋的現在的話經常就是他們業者自行保存保存的部分沒有問題嘛現在要求嘛但是要怎麼樣落實稽查"},{"start":11416.161,"end":11416.321,"text":"資料雲端保護"},{"start":11431.713,"end":11450.623,"text":"包含這些一些私密影像的保護其實現在都是民眾最害怕那加上這些托嬰托幼的這些業者其實他們這種寒蟬消音因為現在少子女化如果是國安危機其實也要保護他們這些工作的一個權益但如果造成他這個行業恐慌的時候其實對於他們在招募上也是有很大的困擾"},{"start":11452.404,"end":11473.682,"text":"這兩點,第一點就是說當我們選擇這些雲的業者的時候,那一定是要好好能夠被我們所監督的也就是說他的資安的保護必須要是足夠的,這是第一點那第二點的話,我舉個例子給委員做參考"},{"start":11474.723,"end":11493.87,"text":"過去在20年前我們希望說消防隊的救護車上面的話去裝這監視器那時候大部分的消防人員是反對的那現在的話是他們要求要裝原因是什麼在當時在救護車上面做這些救護工作"},{"start":11495.01,"end":11523.399,"text":"那時候他們比較沒有信心那我覺得你這個社會的溝通業者的溝通這個要做好然後相關的法源跟政令的配套機制要能夠落實不然我覺得這會造成很多這個社會的分裂但是我是覺得這個還是應該要完整的來去做這兩個案子是並一案你們兩個都有提案沒關係我保留好了兩個案兩個案都是同事啊我這案我保留齁那那個沒有 社會事務委員他先走"},{"start":11524.919,"end":11553.739,"text":"我想要針對 其實剛才我們林維周委員跟民眾黨的黨團提案 直接凍結 因為我覺得說當然你們說的是對 希望說用一個 把監視影像放在雲端 但是其實我們可以看到過去衛福部的業者 你們委託的業者 因為你們也沒有辦法完全的控管"},{"start":11554.56,"end":11574.051,"text":"那業者會發生什麼樣的情況其實你們也不清楚那未來我們把這些幼兒以及幼保的崇教人員的影像的這些權利都交給你們衛福部然後來產生一個監管員來統一處理的時候未來如果這些影像發生什麼問題"},{"start":11578.113,"end":11598.697,"text":"在所有的數位發展的法令上面都沒有辦法做到完全的監管尤其是在我們政府部門的資料的外洩上面其實我們現在也沒有辦法完全有效的解決在沒有辦法完全有效的解決之前"},{"start":11599.977,"end":11604.538,"text":"因為我們兩岸是同樣這個內容針對這個內容不是 我們不希望是保留保留的話就是只是去表決而已我們不希望是這樣子"},{"start":11629.003,"end":11654.953,"text":"這個案子是這樣現在法律的規定是所有的推嬰中心都要設監視器該設的地方都要設包括那個嬰兒車上面都會設監視器而且有規定他這個硬碟要保留多久這個都有法律規定如果業者沒有按照這個法律規定沒有設監視器或是他的硬碟沒有保存多久都有罰則啦"},{"start":11657.094,"end":11681.06,"text":"他要被罰的違法的違規的所以會被罰現在這筆2.6億的預算是要做什麼呢他要把它弄一個全國的監視雲就是說把所有各地的各個業者這個拖音中心的硬碟再摳一次然後放在雲端"},{"start":11681.9,"end":11682.921,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11711.8,"end":11737.125,"text":"2.6億"},{"start":11739.71,"end":11765.364,"text":"幾乎都是在做雲端我在為完委員會 我很清楚另外每年還要花管理費管理費是縣市政府又要撥上千萬幾千萬的管理去管理雲端所以縣市政府態度上也沒有很支持現在大家最擔心的是家長"},{"start":11768.159,"end":11795.155,"text":"家長認為說我的小孩子在那邊托嬰中心你知道的要幫忙洗澡拔屎拔尿通通看到那這些東西都要把它集中在雲端萬一有駭客本來分散的資料還比較安全一點你現在把它全國集中駭客只要到那個雲端駭進去就像我們最近看到駭客這樣一列出來通通"},{"start":11796.135,"end":11800.888,"text":"被看到所以反而危險其中的資料有比較安全嗎對駭客來講喔"},{"start":11803.291,"end":11826.859,"text":"集中對駭客最好他只要突破這個監視雲他就全部看到了所以這個有比他安全嗎所以這個是被質疑的我的建議啦 我的建議就是說先凍結然後專案報告之後公聽會開完大家比較有共識之後解凍也不要去刪除他全數凍結"},{"start":11830.72,"end":11831.12,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11849.955,"end":11852.517,"text":"那是我們要面對這個事情來好好討論一下"},{"start":11872.193,"end":11886.736,"text":"耳哨前五議法第七條之一已經立法通過 一定要監視 要錄影 三十天 沒有錯吧但是你要很了解 常常很多糾紛 孩子沒要講話啦 孩子沒要講話很多糾紛 學校常常有這種糾紛 以後要錄影帶 叫不到"},{"start":11896.188,"end":11912.789,"text":"還是一樣 它調不到 派息沒有錄到 好像被重視過所以這種現象你要了解這是一體兩面的家長對這個要求是很高的你只要站在幼兒的立場上 那是一部分這兩個部分都要考慮"},{"start":11915.392,"end":11932.311,"text":"這大家要慎重來考慮這個事情這可以前途嗎?我先問一下這2.6億都是用在這個方面嗎?不是吧?是,跟委員報告2.6億就是因為要處理1500多家的所以現在要把它上到雲端去嗎?它集中起來,雲端起來集中起來"},{"start":11935.267,"end":11937.049,"text":"平常不可以看 有糾紛才會掉下來"},{"start":11953.502,"end":11974.509,"text":"這個都是很嚴重的公共議題現在很多縣市都開始做了 都有做縣市才有做 台中 台北 新北都自己做了他不相信學校 他只能先生來做因為按這邊麻煩嘛 大家在那現在180家已經做了 你要把它全部停下來嗎"},{"start":11975.709,"end":11990.829,"text":"我覺得大家要好好考慮一下這個沒有說違憲不違憲的問題還沒有再講這很重要公共利益的問題所以大家要忍心想一想我知道他沒有去想要陳情但是"},{"start":11993.092,"end":12007.988,"text":"所以現在全國同意來做嘛然後再引斷啊你說會被盜的你平常都有被盜啊好像說被重置的機會非常大 待會就會被重置那要小心一點啦"},{"start":12011.411,"end":12033.51,"text":"好謝謝院長謝謝院長我講一下這個案子啦原則上我覺得我不知道現場狀況怎麼樣但是我自己是三個小孩子父親我小朋友也就是很多都是學齡前的那我也很了解這個家長的心情我覺得現在最大的問題是什麼就是說你這個"},{"start":12034.07,"end":12034.91,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":12052.455,"end":12071.302,"text":"有小朋友你可能在幼稚園的時候老師當然就是說你可能有換尿布甚至是有一些他們的這個睡午覺或是他們有一些私人影像這個你的資料保護到底有沒有辦法能夠落實剛剛上一個協商的時候光那個法務部暗網的問題這種假訊息的問題駭客的問題"},{"start":12075.163,"end":12094.475,"text":"只要發生的時候 各部會甩鍋來甩鍋去阿你沒有辦法管理阿 這個現在是這個問題阿你要求他們做當然沒有做業者一定會有他不同的反應可是問題是你管理上有問題的時候這些個人資料的保護 資安的問題還有肖像的問題甚至會不會拿來用其他的"},{"start":12097.057,"end":12097.217,"text":"主席"},{"start":12116.694,"end":12132.831,"text":"實際的這個整個物資源的整個整天的行程你們監管的範圍在哪裡這個其實都沒有跟民眾講清楚其實對民眾來講是資訊安全保護的問題我覺得這個是第一個第二個就是彼此信任的問題"},{"start":12133.692,"end":12133.912,"text":"社會溝通和業者"},{"start":12159.355,"end":12188.273,"text":"如果你問我個人的意見我覺得是整個政府的 蘇菲政府的資料保護的一個總體性的一個一個機制的建制從法令上 從系統上 從技術上阿這個部分 蘇發部有沒有角色是不是也應該來去做相關的一個討論那我這邊的案子是凍結我們是用凍結案啦齁那我們認為說說我們也建議還是把它凍結做一個專案報告來說明清楚再來繼續執行接下來劉蘇安委員 然後再謝宥安委員"},{"start":12189.013,"end":12216.363,"text":"我們兩個黨團提到的都是屬於凍結案就表示說其實對於那個社發部所提的這個部分社福部所提的為家屬所提的部分還是會覺得要遵照我們原來的那個兒少權益保護法77條之一來處理那我們也了解到有家長跟社工或者是說跟這些幼保老師之間的一個矛盾今天我們所質疑的部分不應該完全是由衛福部來一手承擔為什麼呢"},{"start":12220.385,"end":12227.629,"text":"新北市、台北市、台中市、台南市、台中縣政府已經都在執行對於各支法的保障或是對肖像權的保障這個部分當然要要求他們做得很清楚所以我們也不會反對凍結"},{"start":12237.594,"end":12238.515,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算部分：完整會議"},{"start":12258.186,"end":12279.424,"text":"那不管未來在立法院要舉行公聽會或是要找那個訴發部一起來討論的話呢其實我們都不會反對讓他可以更完整的保護我們的小朋友但是也可以來保障這些托幼老師的工作權這兩者之間我們要取一個中間的平衡點那你如果全數凍結的話根本就是不同意這樣做嘛"},{"start":12279.764,"end":12283.466,"text":"其實我覺得我們是立法院我們不應該過度的保護就是說為了要保護行政院的預算"},{"start":12305.097,"end":12309.483,"text":"其實我們大家都知道現在台灣的社會裡面資安的人才根本不夠用"},{"start":12320.317,"end":12342.786,"text":"我們在討論私人企業的各自外洩例如說有一些商城網站的各自外洩的時候我們聽到數位發展部他給予我們的是說他沒有辦法去管到私人部門的這個資安的問題而我們現在行政部門的資安人員也嚴重不足的情況下"},{"start":12344.087,"end":12344.187,"text":"主席"},{"start":12369.059,"end":12389.106,"text":"當業者沒有辦法保護的時候我們再去問數位發展部我們再去問相關部門的時候那他們怎麼樣子說明呢他們是不是又推給了我們數位人才不足的情況那如果我們數位資安人才目前整個整體社會都是嚴重不足的情況下我們是不是應該把這一個"},{"start":12391.027,"end":12412.818,"text":"所有小孩子以及幼教人員的監管群的設立問題我們應該暫緩實施即便是各縣市政府已經也在實施的委辦那我們是不是應該是目前委辦的情況未來作為中央政府要做這整個監管群的設置的這個相關的討論問題我認為這是可以討論的空間"},{"start":12415.939,"end":12437.351,"text":"好 那個 劉思汪委員劉思汪委員發言以後 如果還沒有共識 我們就保留啦因為大家沒有共識當然就保留嘛保留等到第二輪我們會提那個終極的建議修正案剛剛那個謝委員所提到的部分這是所有的五個縣市政府裡面"},{"start":12438.411,"end":12459.766,"text":"只有一個台南市民進黨的政府 其他都是國民黨籍的政府我知道 我是說是讓他們先辦理情況嘛他們現在在辦理是根據所說的這個錄影的保存是30天那現在就是說未來如果要當成額虐等於是觸犯到刑法裡面的虐待兒童的時候你必須要有完整的證據 而不是被這些人就把他洗掉"},{"start":12460.426,"end":12461.346,"text":"可是問題是現在目前就是說整體我們"},{"start":12484.355,"end":12498.445,"text":"整個社會裏面 資安的人員就是不夠嘛我看沒有啦 現在就要錄影了嘛先保留 晚一點再回來討論啦好不好 因為我們還有一個建議只是要資安更保護 要上雲端而已我提一個建議啦我們後面還有50個案我要提一個建議啦其實我們"},{"start":12508.112,"end":12536.372,"text":"不是說要把他刪減所以希望說充分討論你看現在大家都知道說各縣市也在做把他集中起來弄等於是新北市雲已經有一個這樣的方式現在是要把他弄全國在一起的監視雲有這個必要嗎還是就分散在各縣市你去補助各縣市做他們的監管雲"},{"start":12537.493,"end":12538.936,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12553.584,"end":12578.35,"text":"那個當前80%嘛然後各黨各黨提出報告各黨總選卷自己負責但是要一題兩題的問題大家要小心一點我只是希望充分討論業者啦 家長啦這個問題不是只有今天存在的存在很久了他們一直在跟衛福衛福溝通"},{"start":12580.411,"end":12581.952,"text":"暫時保留下午再討論我們還有討論的機會"},{"start":12596.385,"end":12603.55,"text":"212和213就暫時保留下午就討論214就是改為凍結5%沒有一件事通過接下來我們就環境部主管"},{"start":12639.618,"end":12642.219,"text":"剩下50案處理完這就結尾了"},{"start":12664.916,"end":12686.7,"text":"現在我們就環境部主管環境部主管我先介紹列席的所長環境部部長薛富聖先生介紹完畢那請大家看215案改為組結議沒有見通過216案改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":12692.503,"end":12695.186,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12710.188,"end":12712.889,"text":"公務委員．立法院黨團協商．立法院黨協商．立法院黨協商．立法院黨協商"},{"start":12733.334,"end":12733.554,"text":"主席"},{"start":12748.528,"end":12748.748,"text":"村委員的意見"},{"start":12771.614,"end":12780.438,"text":"一定要想辦法做到好 那請看217案 併委員決議辦理沒有見通過218案 併委員決議辦理沒有見通過219 改組決議沒有見通過220 併委員決議辦理沒有見通過221 改凍結250萬也沒有見通過院長我講一下院長我講一下那個剛剛他已經保留了沒有 我要講一下你保留就"},{"start":12800.946,"end":12801.407,"text":"2222那個案子吧"},{"start":12819.264,"end":12845.069,"text":"那我今天質詢也是說報告可以公佈那你剛剛也說好了嘛對不對那是不是可以進行是針對當事人剛剛的執行的時候是針對當事人啦那有關前署長的那個部分就二二一案應該是保留吧因為在行政院那邊相當的案子已經保留了嘛沒有啊沒有保留啊行政院事責案有保留啦"},{"start":12847.523,"end":12867.184,"text":"二一保留沒有啊 二一為什麼要保留 請說明一下啊沒有要保留啊沒有共識就保留沒有啊 沒有共識 為什麼沒有共識 這個信箱還這麼嚴重本來就是要調查有什麼保留柯總長說明一下 你保留的原因是什麼"},{"start":12868.109,"end":12870.13,"text":"221保留 222改組結議沒有見通過 223改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":12893.48,"end":12903.949,"text":"224凍結二十分之一那文字修正那就有一件沒有一件通過222通商就通案處理"},{"start":12905.689,"end":12907.932,"text":"委員長我要講一下委員長我要講一下"},{"start":12924.532,"end":12925.714,"text":"沒有公訴保留有什麼問題呢"},{"start":12943.775,"end":12943.795,"text":"233改組決議234"},{"start":12970.72,"end":12987.706,"text":"剪列100萬元,那這個有沒有意見?有沒有?改動節5%那要不要提書面報告?提書面報告齁,那沒有意見就通過225改組結議,沒有意見通過235,抱歉抱歉,235改組結議沒有意見通過,236組結議有沒有意見?"},{"start":12994.65,"end":13022.91,"text":"剛剛221"},{"start":13023.411,"end":13035.696,"text":"那二一就是處理結案之後發布新聞稿那為什麼要保留 院長都看過了為什麼要保留沒有發布新聞稿那以前謝曉新的案子為什麼可以發布新聞稿那現在這個環保署我們的現在的政委我們這個案子發布新聞稿為什麼要保留親中商"},{"start":13049.421,"end":13049.601,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":13071.954,"end":13073.095,"text":"在107年時任行政院"},{"start":13097.492,"end":13109.619,"text":"院長賴清德親自致左偉熙實地會刊．並宣布啟動左偉熙治理平台會議．預算無上限全力治理左偉熙陽城問題．歷經兩期計劃．投入21.7億元．左偉熙陽城已從106年．"},{"start":13121.076,"end":13122.438,"text":"59次降至117年僅兩次的成績"},{"start":13135.538,"end":13136.118,"text":"不要政策先導阿"},{"start":13171.437,"end":13180.64,"text":"我再調整一下好不好行政院長賴清德改成行政院可以嗎這樣就可以了行政院長賴清德改成行政院這樣可以嗎這是事實啊不要啦"},{"start":13192.378,"end":13196.4,"text":"107年時行政院宣布啟動不要有做選舉期間不要做這種"},{"start":13213.598,"end":13237.274,"text":"文字稍微矯正一下子可以我照你的你的文字是什麼我沒看到阿第二輪再講不可以嗎不可以不可以那怎麼辦那你上會我上會要成比例啦我不成比例我不要讓你再做政策宣導我講說事實阿你講說政策宣導之前的話我們文字稍微矯正總可以吧"},{"start":13239.555,"end":13240.255,"text":"任涵保留這不合理阿"},{"start":13270.205,"end":13270.766,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13295.11,"end":13298.514,"text":"二十五之一二十一已經宣布了"},{"start":13316.701,"end":13338.026,"text":"第二輪再來談第二輪再來談文字修正通過文字修正通過245之一246 併文人決議辦理沒有意見通過247 改組決議沒有意見通過248 通商科目沒有意見通案辦理249 併文人決議辦理沒有意見通過250 組決議有沒有意見文字修正"},{"start":13344.958,"end":13351.282,"text":"文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過251主決議 召喚通過252主決議 召喚通過253主決議有文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過 254主決議 有文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過 255主決議"},{"start":13369.654,"end":13379.379,"text":"建議文字修正好文字修正那沒有意見就修正通過256通3通案處理257改組決議沒有意見通過258改凍結100萬元沒有意見通過259通3通案處理260改凍結100萬元那沒有意見就通過"},{"start":13394.647,"end":13410.995,"text":"261 文字組結議 文字修正 沒有意見修正通過262 組結議 有沒有意見 捐到辦理 263 組結議 捐到辦理 264 組結議 捐到辦理265 266 都是通3 我們通案處理267 組結議 有做文字修正 沒有意見修正通過268 組結議 有做文字修正 沒有意見修正通過"},{"start":13423.212,"end":13428.896,"text":"二五一有文字修正二五一有文字修正所以組結一文字修正通過部長二一你們有問題嗎叫二人再談"},{"start":13452.182,"end":13455.586,"text":"下午2點 看大家方便等一下 下午2點 關鍵性人物 我要示範一下"},{"start":13470.737,"end":13475.779,"text":"兩點有會議因為第二輪沒有那麼快喔兩點半好不好 讓你開開帥一個負責 什麼事情都排開"},{"start":13503.422,"end":13527.154,"text":"但是他們還是要溝通啦因為還要溝通 他們現在喔 國部會因為二輪一定要溝通溝通還差啦不然你來喔那明天喔 明天因為你第二輪結束嘛 對不對那有一頁要整理 所以原則上明天就沒有關係啦 禮拜一我們至少禮拜一要協商法案防護稅好不好禮拜一"},{"start":13529.332,"end":13530.453,"text":"委員會要給他們時間,他們都加班,很辛苦"},{"start":13547.307,"end":13560.514,"text":"法案協商 防護稅 拜帝來處理本來就通知大家禮拜二表決 所有人行人都安排下午兩點半 多溝通"},{"start":22098.136,"end":22122.124,"text":"各位先進,我們現在開始開會現在我們要進行的是有關於第二輪的就是行政院所屬及各部會相關預算的協商"},{"start":22126.127,"end":22140.727,"text":"在剛開始的時候就要先進行通案的部分那要進行之前我就先介紹一下列席的所長首先介紹行政院秘書長李秘書長李孟彥先生再來介紹"},{"start":22142.585,"end":22144.366,"text":"現在我們就開始針對通案第三案"},{"start":22170.916,"end":22189.34,"text":"通案第三案,大家要發表意見嗎?還是要文字修正通過?這個第三案有關於組結議的部分,行政委員所提的事務部的跨境備演的問題這個要重新改寫"},{"start":22200.707,"end":22214.072,"text":"說可以做文字修正是不是?對,文字修正反正很清楚,你們現在是怕反對誇之悲焉現在有一個小組曾經來討論這個事情明年度並沒有這個計畫選新組就好了至於蘇委部改的"},{"start":22228.632,"end":22246.742,"text":"我們沒有辦法接受你這樣改法,罪名都在罵我們,蔡政府做法顯然雙標沒那麼在看啊,怎麼偷跑之前啊整個文章在罵我們怎麼可以很清楚表達對於這個他們恐慌的部分,我們就沒有在做還是怎麼樣,這樣寫清楚就好了,好不好"},{"start":22250.307,"end":22271.479,"text":"好,你覺得故事的部分,我們可以不要?謾罵的文詞不要啦!沒有這回事啦!他這種做法顯然雙標,這種我可以同意啦!所以我不想只顧你們的,你要看看前面文嘛!你把國家賣掉,然後你只顧你的"},{"start":22276.04,"end":22276.581,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22298.192,"end":22301.135,"text":"第一段第二段全部改寫就不要了你就針對問題他們擔心你針對詞就回答清楚就好了"},{"start":22324.529,"end":22351.903,"text":"現在行政委合併已經沒有了,民進黨預算也沒有這個他也沒有把文字修訂拿來給我們啊是不是?我沒有看到啊,我看到的都...為什麼只有給民進黨團?我不是啊有沒有,來重新寫一個好不好前面沒有改,後面也改,他只有改最後一段"},{"start":22353.715,"end":22361.12,"text":"沒有文字修訂,他新的文字修訂我們都沒有拿到這個部分,其實的確行政院好像是昨天"},{"start":22378.103,"end":22400.788,"text":"大概13號啊13號才核定的啦所以我們在提案的時候他的確當時偷跑這是沒有錯的啦情勢變更了嘛但是昨天等於是昨天行政院才核定啦那不諱言這的確是有偷跑啦那另外一個部分大概105年的部分其實當時"},{"start":22407.268,"end":22421.733,"text":"趕快 是不是事劃部裡面趕快 有意見那個要劃掉就趕快劃出來 不然都要這樣耗著也不是辦法嘛我們就修改就提出來 把版本提出來修改一下"},{"start":22446.988,"end":22473.183,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":22479.929,"end":22483.29,"text":"這不是誰改的?這張原來是誰改的?這張呢?"},{"start":22521.359,"end":22536.85,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":22550.803,"end":22566.408,"text":"那個第五行這邊留幾個字好不好就是第三行到跨境後備那其性質屬新興計劃這可以留下來嗎這性質新興計劃留下來"},{"start":22574.469,"end":22583.425,"text":"沒有問題啦反正星星大概明年沒有星星嘛沒有就是說基本上這一個東西的確是全新的啦嘿"},{"start":22588.967,"end":22614.923,"text":"那幾個留下來沒有關係但是我覺得也要說明一下就是說其實在這個計畫的核定剛才唐鳳部長可能不在我們在於就是像各個部會都有相關的計畫那對於這個雲端備份的相關的就是資訊還有資通的安全的部分那過去以往我們也討論過"},{"start":22617.164,"end":22629.814,"text":"在於資安的人才目前國內的確還是尚未不足的情況下我們過去在商業部門的這些資料的外洩部分我們也進行過相關的討論那好像"},{"start":22632.196,"end":22632.436,"text":"主席"},{"start":22651.127,"end":22652.588,"text":"我們轄下有行政法人、國家自通安全研究院﹚"},{"start":22675.989,"end":22693.365,"text":"自安院跟自安署不同的﹐就是它可以跟民間一起﹐好比像說去開辦自安長的訓練﹐去訂定職能等等﹐增強全民的自安意識等等﹐所以這部分是在我們行政法人來做﹐不過也想澄清一下﹐就是我們在明年就如同柯總召所說的﹐"},{"start":22694.045,"end":22694.825,"text":"市長要注意一下,就這樣"},{"start":22720.612,"end":22745.574,"text":"等一下 是不是因為現在我們還沒有上位清除我們是不是應該要請數位發展部你們把文字修正以後沒有 你剛才又重新念了一次重新是要加幾個字那他把重新的修正給大家看一下好不好恢復幾個字而已 屬新興計畫你都會加我們同意嗎可以啦"},{"start":22757.773,"end":22758.313,"text":"一個就是後面改專案"},{"start":22784.817,"end":22811.51,"text":"對新計劃服務然後專案啦好不好可以啊沒有關係可以啊反正越報告越清楚啦好OK吧要有特別唸一遍嗎還是就這樣唸一遍好不好因為又改了很多東西欸是不是應該要再唸一遍要精確啦對啊要精確啦我講一下啦就是剛才我們發表的部分嘛"},{"start":22812.677,"end":22838.925,"text":"把那個屬新興計畫加回去你姓氏屬新興加回去請蘇發部相應委員提出相應計畫之名稱、各年度提成及經費等信箱說明專案報告好不好專案報告這樣就好了好不好主協議主協議對來"},{"start":22842.574,"end":22843.135,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":22862.13,"end":22862.93,"text":"處理完畢"},{"start":22887.967,"end":22896.992,"text":"大家沒有意見,讓唐後部長可以離開接下來我們就處理行政院主管的部分"},{"start":22903.588,"end":22925.554,"text":"內政委員會一半保留27案 溝通有結果現在有4個案 還剩下23案要處理行政院主管的部分 剛才已經有介紹 行政院秘書長在場李孟彥先生"},{"start":22943.143,"end":22952.786,"text":"第二幕第12案12案這邊是不是建議修改這個文字有在各位委員的桌上在哪裡然後"},{"start":22957.804,"end":22964.294,"text":"請行政院督促法務部及NCC一三個月內提出書面報告"},{"start":22966.451,"end":22987.929,"text":"目前這樣子的修正我們不會接受因為公益信託修法行政院這樣子不負責任遙遙無期那不能因為法律沒過就無視問題所以就是請行政院盤點各機關公益信託監管的實況就現況問題提出檢討對策"},{"start":22992.948,"end":23018.422,"text":"目前這個信託法的修正案已經在司法委員會所以司法委員會如果趕快審查不要主決議還是凍結這樣可以嗎文字目前那就勉強接受他原來有一個病案凍結就不要病案就獨立案好不好那就保留了好不好"},{"start":23019.514,"end":23047.841,"text":"那是不是保留再保留一下為什麼要保留呢就我們既同意文字就獨立案了就好啦你們要互相我覺得只是拿錢幣這樣子動不動就欺負小黨嘛那文字我們已經勉強接受那就是獨立修正啊我們剛剛不是說修正那現在就是維持我們的原來的凍結"},{"start":23051.98,"end":23063.15,"text":"陳督委你是希望凍結百分之十對不對那全部才一百二十九萬而已啊那我們降一點好了凍結十萬好了啊十萬塊原來十趴只有十二萬"},{"start":23074.824,"end":23077.547,"text":"原來只有凍結12萬你現在要提高到20萬凍結6萬可以嗎有啊有讓啦"},{"start":23094.465,"end":23095.906,"text":"第十二案 改為凍結六萬年"},{"start":23113.41,"end":23138.439,"text":"改組決議那主要文字的有一些修正就是專案報告改成書面報告那使得動資拿掉那21案有沒有問題有問題有問題來請那這個才就是這是民眾黨這邊提才動200萬那現在這個行政院這邊文字暢改不對啦你們這文字改了就把我們原意曲解了啦"},{"start":23139.952,"end":23140.492,"text":"文字改中心一點好不好"},{"start":23167.073,"end":23168.614,"text":"可不可以併案,原來併案50萬,併這個科目"},{"start":23189.932,"end":23190.493,"text":"委員多少 委員多少"},{"start":23208.642,"end":23226.47,"text":"委員會案是五十才五十啊行政院積極打詐不要說毫無自己成效但是也不能說已有成效成效待評估啦好不好我們不要分出有沒有成效我們說他應該積極打詐就好了"},{"start":23228.351,"end":23228.491,"text":"一百萬"},{"start":23256.371,"end":23257.492,"text":"二十一案"},{"start":23277.539,"end":23302.858,"text":"二十一案我確認一下二十一案就是凍結一百萬年提書面報告文字修正沒有意見就通過二十五案有文字修正主要是專案報告改成書面折成原住民委員會"},{"start":23304.892,"end":23317.382,"text":"好 那凍結的數目一樣嗎凍結的數目可不可以並按因為改組決議就把凍就改成組決議這總共一千三十凍凍五百是太多了吧"},{"start":23320.049,"end":23335.241,"text":"或是建議併案、併案凍結這個委員他還好像那個是不是行政院還沒有溝通因為沒有等到委員我跟他有約委員見面可是委員沒有給時間我們就處理了好不好因為這個還是保留"},{"start":23349.916,"end":23351.137,"text":"25案保留26案"},{"start":23380.496,"end":23395.869,"text":"有文字修正那看了一下修正的文字就是我們還是要動啦所以就是那我們不要並動啦我們還是要動一下這樣子那我們就動50要動一下站起來動一動就好了"},{"start":23405.24,"end":23405.38,"text":"26案 動50案"},{"start":23425.489,"end":23426.77,"text":"文字有送給各位委員的桌上"},{"start":23444.622,"end":23445.743,"text":"26案就是 文字修正 凍結50萬 沒有意見 通過"},{"start":23472.249,"end":23485.095,"text":"凍結那邊劃掉的再寫回去啊?就是文字修正裡面原來把凍結兩百萬劃掉,現在改成凍結五十萬那凍結五十萬讓我問問吧凍結五十萬讓我問問吧凍結五十萬讓我問問"},{"start":23503.445,"end":23522.373,"text":"為終止行政案前保障人權保障,讓節50萬,然後3個月提出書面報告提出研議修正草案,書面報告"},{"start":23538.052,"end":23538.453,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23550.496,"end":23569.354,"text":"文字修正就你們注意一下啦行政院跟你們去注意一下文字你修好了修好了好那就這樣文字沒有修好文字再請行政院給我們你剛剛修50萬那個再修給我們再給我們再修正動輒50萬再投在那邊就有了嘛你動輒200改50就結束了"},{"start":23579.298,"end":23581.22,"text":"對 再重新送一張簽名 好 謝謝"},{"start":23597.844,"end":23626.407,"text":"好,好,好,來,我們就...動五十萬嘛,齁動五十萬,嘿,我們就修正我們就修正嘛,好,OK來,二十九案,通山客戶,我們就...通案處理,可以嗎?在哪裡?在這一個併通山好,那沒意見就通過啦好,來,再來三十案"},{"start":23628.348,"end":23629.909,"text":"本來就是該做的事"},{"start":23647.805,"end":23673.072,"text":"我們只是希望說你們有一個書面報告而已嘛原來這個其實應該還好吧這個是不是可以改成組結議那就改成組結議那書面報告好不好原來就是應該其實這個應該是給我們這樣好不好專案的啦好不好因為這個其實本來就是應該其實連那個"},{"start":23676.251,"end":23702.732,"text":"之前都已經變為維線了嘛這個我們的個資保護不足的這個問題那現在我們這個個資保護委員會的這個獨立機關這樣的他整個是不是這樣可不可以就是說用書面報告然後動比如說兩百萬或一百萬好啊那就兩百萬好了好不好就書面報告你們已經也刪了幾個一些東西了嘛沒關係好"},{"start":23705.222,"end":23729.097,"text":"三十案齁 凍結兩百萬提書面報告好我們有一件就通過那個耐斯堡委員那個阿你們把他弄通山阿他是很堅持沒有剛好已經跟他溝通過了你有跟他溝通過嗎你確定確定因為他本來就是通山科目阿來不來已經沒有了本來就是通山科目"},{"start":23730.37,"end":23753.256,"text":"好 那第38案 主結議的第38案 主結議 有沒有意見那這個我們有提修改文字 因為裡面有提到一些說行政院有桃色風波啦 我想這個這個措辭 我們希望保留表決啦 這個要保留 要保留啦第38案"},{"start":23766.604,"end":23783.889,"text":"文字調整一下嘛是不是文字什麼樣我們有建議有一些文字的調整那就主決議那你調整那個在哪裡對啊文字調整一下沒關係啦那就照這樣通過好不好"},{"start":23788.249,"end":23812.054,"text":"好啦 調整一下啦這個還是先保留好不好 因為那個孟愷孟愷有說希望先保留沒有啦 因為其實信憑的業務信憑的委員會都現在都已經強化而且在正常的現狀那個時候信憑商會改了嘛所以其實這個不要有這麼多比較"},{"start":23814.615,"end":23831.522,"text":"觸目驚心的字眼 功能是一樣的我想38跟42其實都類似 42也是這個 其實他們都建議要表決委員啦 38 42先留著啦 先留著好不好已經斷掉了 沒有了"},{"start":23838.594,"end":23866.385,"text":"會有啦那就保留啦先保留啦先保留啦42我是建議因為42李建鈺他已經離職那現在性騷擾的調查也出來會對他追加做處分所以最後這些處分的結果也都會來跟各位報告所以是不是這個可以那處分結果已經出來了嘛也陸續他在提人憑"},{"start":23869.547,"end":23878.252,"text":"要結案了吧那我們是不是做了一下文字修正阿你是不是先保留我們做文字修正阿你把文字修正拿來好不好42我們現在42我們有42了38換過來"},{"start":23907.074,"end":23921.183,"text":"這樣啦,是12齁,其實漢堡署長並沒有包庇署下啦這個蚊子要調整一下,大家講一下沒有關係沒有包庇啦怎麼會沒包庇蚊子調整一下嘛而且這個案子已經處分了嘛沒有啊,沒有處分啊包庇也沒處分啊"},{"start":23935.785,"end":23962.431,"text":"他沒有包庇阿 我們在政治只有這一點而已阿你怎麼證明他沒包庇你怎麼證明他沒有包庇沒有人知道他有包庇阿我才敢說阿我們有一些修正的文字我們是不是現在印給大家在42案對阿 38案是不是文子調整"},{"start":23969.407,"end":23994.1,"text":"有一個有一個桃子和波沒有不斷 已經斷掉了好 四十二 這個文字調整好了嗎 在哪裡好 這樣休息一下好了 這樣調整好好好 休息一下 好啦好啦 氣溫不要弄壞了啦"},{"start":23996.272,"end":23999.716,"text":"院長你可不可以請各單位先趕快溝通文字"},{"start":24010.478,"end":24017.08,"text":"不然這樣時間會拖得很晚沒有說保留的文章保留他們有修的是不是要叫人幫忙發"},{"start":24189.753,"end":24191.093,"text":"請看46案46案我們有修正一些文字"},{"start":24218.567,"end":24224.241,"text":"如果沒有意見就這個主席就文字修正通過好不好在大家桌上"},{"start":24232.675,"end":24234.337,"text":"46案文字修正通過48案組結議"},{"start":24252.094,"end":24271.406,"text":"這個48案如果要修,可能只留前面三行,其他全部刪掉?那就保留啦,那就保留啦等一下等一下,我都叫一台,兩行可以不可以?38保留齁?25也是嘛齁?現在是48?"},{"start":24281.689,"end":24282.029,"text":"48保留齁好那請看49"},{"start":24294.679,"end":24295.699,"text":"前面那個投入14億那個就留著"},{"start":24322.472,"end":24343.888,"text":"他後面有兩三 有三行文字 做刪除文字修正通過好不好 結構沒有改好 五十案主決議 文字修正通過五十一案 主決議"},{"start":24346.075,"end":24373.16,"text":"五十一就是 裡面對於居住正義有很多負面的描述 包括大撒幣所以我們是建議這個還有圖利財團等等的文字五十二有修正一些文字 是不是請大家參閱這是針對中中紀念堂要不要測儀隊"},{"start":24376.618,"end":24398.071,"text":"我們希望後面的文字能夠維持具體規劃這個部分可以保留這樣子嗎?對,就是請行政院,則請文化部來提出這個中正紀念堂轉型的書面報告三個月內就是不要書面報告,就是維持具體規劃可以嗎?"},{"start":24400.334,"end":24401.755,"text":"我們希望有具體的規劃"},{"start":24424.189,"end":24448.852,"text":"可以嗎規劃如果規劃繼續存在也是具體嗎對啊就具體規劃就是存在等一下等一下這是文化部的案啊這文化部的案子沒關係那就保留好那就保留好因為這個中央經濟黨以後的下一波轉型爭議不一致怎麼清楚那個還有整個修法包括中央經濟黨組織條例那個整套的"},{"start":24449.815,"end":24476.713,"text":"其實我們實例的這個文字都很保守了啦那如果說總召連這樣都不願意具體規劃都不願意 那我們就是保留我是講的比較完整一點出產條例我不予以指的清楚嘛那後面還有中央進行組織條例很多同項在一定有一隊 你把一隊弄走 同項還在 重點是同項嘛"},{"start":24479.755,"end":24479.915,"text":"主席"},{"start":24503.92,"end":24508.344,"text":"這幾案?90案 動輒100萬一般行政跟他報告齁 因為中選會因為有會議所以打電話來請假跟他報告一下"},{"start":24533.762,"end":24542.446,"text":"這不在集堅守投票的事情是啥是90案嘛 是不是現在開始90案 凍結100萬這個就是說是我們黨這邊提的啦因為不在集這個是已經是講非常非常的久"},{"start":24551.889,"end":24574.287,"text":"沒有啦有啦現在哪有可以不在即高型補回了嗎高型補回了是吧跟大家報告就是有關監索涉及者的這個投票最高型是已經補回掉原來這個北高型的裁定那許多地方就許多高等行政法院現在也是做"},{"start":24574.887,"end":24575.287,"text":"所以9393才是在講監獄的"},{"start":24609.148,"end":24620.472,"text":"對 但是90案是整個不在籍 不在籍這件事情其實現在我看我們不是只講監獄而已 是整體的 現在還是沒有辦法能做"},{"start":24622.038,"end":24643.687,"text":"而且公投法上也叫我們做這件事還是不能做這個案90案我們是不是本黨團這邊還是保留了這個要立法完成才可以規劃我知道但是現在就是一直沒有看到行政院或者是中選會現在的這個法案在我們面證委員會因為都主審了審了以後他們後來就沒有細審了"},{"start":24644.927,"end":24646.048,"text":"為至今中協會能為啟動執行黨掌政協商"},{"start":24665.188,"end":24684.037,"text":"要求推動該立法完成這個我們還在委員會,還沒出委員會沒有關係,我們就一案而已,就保留一下好了不是,文整調整我們可以來談一下沒有關係嗎?不用了啦,我們這個93我們可以那個啦,不要了,那90的話我們就保留這一案"},{"start":24687.432,"end":24714.94,"text":"9393939393939393939393939393939393939393"},{"start":24715.922,"end":24724.326,"text":"內文沒有關係啦 不要凍結啦內文沒有關係 提出時分報告沒有問題啊要不就是照我們的不然就表決一下也沒關係 一案而已啊改組決議我們沒有問題啦就錯不在中選會"},{"start":24739.4,"end":24747.563,"text":"就是說這個是整體政府的啦這已經談了太久太久了啦大家也有期待啦我們還是去看表決一下沒關係才一樣而已啊"},{"start":24756.294,"end":24763.864,"text":"國會是自主的他們是獨立局官他們沒有辦法給我們機會反正是我們的行政院不送來我們是沒有辦法審的已經在審了"},{"start":24770.993,"end":24771.994,"text":"行政院有提院門嗎?有阿有嘛"},{"start":24788.154,"end":24789.515,"text":"國民黨是林偉超總召"},{"start":24818.294,"end":24830.164,"text":"就其實這一案而已啦,我們就是這一案也是為大家爭取這個權利而已總召的意思是說這個是應該是在立法院啦那我們去圍欄中選會好像怪怪的我沒有意見啦煙有頭債有主這樣啦算是不要凍結嘛這跟我們沒關係嘛好,不然算了啦"},{"start":24842.352,"end":24842.873,"text":"文字就不用動了"},{"start":24856.325,"end":24874.651,"text":"免動節,文字有修正的免動節好,那就文字修正那就通過這樣給我們報告文字有幾個字可能要調整一下好,90案改組決議,文字修正好,沒有意見通過93案,並委員會決議辦理好,就這樣107案好,已經改組決議,這個已經陸委會,我們要讓他坐下來好了"},{"start":24886.488,"end":24904.082,"text":"事實上陸委會他們已經協調好了我們就主委坐下來我就不必再介紹了我們就107案現在我們就陸委會了陸委會已經協調好他只有兩個案我們很快的處理107案改組協議在哪裡107案組協議在哪裡"},{"start":24915.835,"end":24916.156,"text":"不當黨產處理委員會"},{"start":24949.681,"end":24959.107,"text":"現在主任委員林鋒正先生在列席我們就開始請大家看119案全數檢列有沒有意見保留再來請看"},{"start":24973.563,"end":24985.753,"text":"這個120案也是全數檢列這個我們改組決議好不好改組決議齁好不好可以啊你是全數刪除啊當然改組決議可以啊"},{"start":24990.876,"end":25016.657,"text":"好改組決議那文字修正那這樣那個文字說我們會是打擊一級建立綠色威權就跟事實就不一樣文字改組決議你都寫一個比較中肯的大家來看一看就可以你就把文字修正讓大家看一下好不好麻煩一下就文字要修正要讓大家看一下啦就這樣"},{"start":25017.551,"end":25044.295,"text":"好來 我們一百二十案改組決議文書修正那一種組決議怎麼可能我只修正一下 董事長那個文書修正讓大家看一下就這樣看一下大家如果沒有意見就通過好那再來一二二案因為是屬於通山我們通案處理好通山"},{"start":25045.209,"end":25074.09,"text":"他是通商科目嘛就通案處理比照幾檔再來是123案主決議123保留123保留保留好不當黨產處理員會一共現在四個案有兩案保留一個是通案處理一個就是主決議文字修正請修正以後讓大家看一下就可以了好"},{"start":25075.205,"end":25075.405,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25118.523,"end":25120.205,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25123.108,"end":25125.391,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25139.798,"end":25139.818,"text":"好"},{"start":25162.637,"end":25162.677,"text":"主席"},{"start":25179.253,"end":25180.394,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25197.009,"end":25201.092,"text":"好,來我宣布一下好不好"},{"start":25224.839,"end":25225.62,"text":"我們就繼續開會齁我宣佈一下"},{"start":25256.343,"end":25281.236,"text":"好來我宣布一下謝謝總商好來我宣布一下好好來有關於不當黨黨處理人會剛才已經有處理的20案就是保留嘛就是11919保留嘛那現在120我們改為保留"},{"start":25285.697,"end":25287.058,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25333.159,"end":25333.62,"text":"請大家看144"},{"start":25339.937,"end":25349.785,"text":"修正文字就是把調查報告公開化掉那是不是還是維持調查報告應該公開這樣才會同意"},{"start":25352.219,"end":25352.319,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":25369.104,"end":25372.346,"text":"提案是報告要公開,現在針對公開這個部分可以嗎?"},{"start":25393.12,"end":25421.448,"text":"因為提給內政委員會就是已經就是公開的一個報告了因為現在需要內政部公開我們是正式提給立法院的內政委員會所以他其實就是已經是一個公開的一個處理所謂公開就是請你們就是在網站能夠把這個報告能夠對外公開啦不是說提供給內政委員會就算公開啦所以這個部分有一點不同"},{"start":25423.539,"end":25423.741,"text":"這個可以嗎?"},{"start":25426.919,"end":25428.86,"text":"二月二十四日提供內委會的報告"},{"start":25455.919,"end":25478.906,"text":"公開嘛,已經公開就好了嘛對,就是因為2月24號都已經提過了而且內政委員會也已經同意了好啊,那你們先這樣子改是,好那就編案,就144案就改為主決議那文字修正通過,對不對?對好,你同意了嘛,就照那個文字你們寫掉啊2月24號報告那個部分要公開就好了好,來"},{"start":25482.607,"end":25483.088,"text":"請大家看145案"},{"start":25504.909,"end":25505.57,"text":"文字有做修正"},{"start":25539.775,"end":25556.436,"text":"院長我再問一下剛剛那個報告要公開你們有2月24的報告還有其他的報告嗎該組決議我們就是2月24號提供有沒有其他的報告2月24號那個就是我們的行政調查是只有一份"},{"start":25562.003,"end":25583.983,"text":"是嗎?是只有一份嗎?跟委員報告,據我了解,我們好像有另外一個委員的部分,也是同樣的內容同樣的內容的報告?內容一模一樣的,是嗎?2月24號提供給內委會的報告就那麼一份嘛,跟外公開沒有關係"},{"start":25585.236,"end":25609.313,"text":"好我看這個剛才講的這個他不是沒有公開我是說公開的程度你還不滿意應該要在網站上也要有啦就這樣啦他事實上是已經有公開了啦齁那這個就你們在文字上修改一下等下看一下嘛齁好那接下來一訴五案齁那改組決議那文字修正那沒有意見通過好"},{"start":25615.304,"end":25640.95,"text":"好請看173案173是實例這邊的那個提案那這個主決因為把所有的文字幾乎五分之三都劃掉那這個部分我們先保留這個案子和前面那個案子一樣意思是一樣嗎報告是一樣的內容是一樣的"},{"start":25642.987,"end":25650.01,"text":"跟144一樣嘛 144都已經改了那一樣公開嘛 就併144就好了可以嗎 併144啦好 那我們黨團這邊就是兩案現在都保留啦144跟173都保留剛才講好了"},{"start":25665.29,"end":25666.472,"text":"委員我們已經把文字修好了"},{"start":25676.468,"end":25679.229,"text":"二月二十四號的報告太過簡短草率所以我們希望有"},{"start":25699.438,"end":25721.936,"text":"公布你們比較完整的報告那你們既然也不願意去說明清楚那我們認為這樣子不能夠呈現事實所以就是保留我沒有花很多時間你不能拗他嘛你不能拗人家嘛你搞這個搞那個我剛才求證說到底有沒有另外一份報告啊那如果如果是有的話"},{"start":25724.818,"end":25737.803,"text":"我們還是希望內政部能夠公開那現在因為你的文字我們沒有辦法接受所以這邊先保留我再跟你補充一下我們就是2月24號給內委會的報告沒有其他的報告 這第一點第二點"},{"start":25744.427,"end":25761.686,"text":"這個案子其實地檢署已經講得很清楚並不是內政部洩漏出去的而是在外部的一個使用機關所以我們內政部已經就我們的權責的部分已經做了完整的一個調查也把這個報告跟內委會來做說明了"},{"start":25762.347,"end":25762.467,"text":"主席"},{"start":25774.452,"end":25793.559,"text":"謝謝部長的回應,不過因為邱總召這邊剛剛我們有聯繫所以我們針對這樣子又把我們的文字劃掉那是不是可以完整的呈現我們的文字那如果是這樣子的話我們就可以...他已經完整呈現了,你...就不要把文字劃掉不是,你現在文字把我們劃掉那麼多"},{"start":25798.661,"end":25798.822,"text":"陳如玉議員"},{"start":25806.238,"end":25820.109,"text":"因為委員你可以看一下原本的文字是說內政部迄今尚未公布行政調查報告但實際上我們是修正的文字是說在112年2月24號我們有把會議證資料外寫的書面報告送給這個內政委員會那是因為這個文字"},{"start":25830.657,"end":25830.697,"text":"主席"},{"start":25851.888,"end":25852.068,"text":"謝謝部長的回答"},{"start":25864.664,"end":25882.895,"text":"我們現在已經討論一個多小時了 只有通過差不多20個案而已那我們還是要加快我們的腳步144案 那就可以了 剛才陳委員已經同意了就主決議 那我就修正通過 173案就保留就這樣確定 來 這個案"},{"start":25893.049,"end":25922.405,"text":"在202案改組協議那這個已經有溝通了吧好啦就改組協議沒有意見通過204案改組協議那沒有意見通過好這樣內政部告一段落好來國防外交在哪裡長江左右來的更好"},{"start":25925.196,"end":25945.094,"text":"來來來來謝謝"},{"start":25970.448,"end":25984.977,"text":"外交部部長因為因公出國,所以就有呂淳次長代表他有事前打電話要我轉告大家來請假"},{"start":25992.13,"end":26019.859,"text":"再介紹一遍好了啦就列席的首長就是外交部政務處長李純先生好來好謝謝那現在我們就看從這裡吧第九案第九案測案好就這樣那再來就是五十案主決議文字修正那沒有進行通過好第一再來就請看六十八案主決議"},{"start":26021.936,"end":26022.117,"text":"國防部"},{"start":26038.09,"end":26038.87,"text":"六十八案主決議"},{"start":26066.857,"end":26069.257,"text":"新版文字修正"},{"start":26095.39,"end":26096.691,"text":"保留是我們喊的還是你喊的建議建議"},{"start":26122.455,"end":26122.736,"text":"主席"},{"start":26132.312,"end":26132.472,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26162.612,"end":26163.033,"text":"請問您的修正文字在哪裡?"},{"start":26191.079,"end":26219.082,"text":"來請大家看一下90案的文字修正看大家有沒有什麼意見就說主決議就改為主決議那文字做修正好 院長我們還是保留保留喔對好那90案就保留好那國防部結束謝謝上將謝謝院長好來接下來喬武喬武委員會"},{"start":26225.207,"end":26235.312,"text":"喬文瑞現在列席的所長是副委員長阮昭雄先生那我們就先看157案"},{"start":26253.875,"end":26254.195,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26272.953,"end":26274.694,"text":"首先就是國外會主管的部分"},{"start":26308.523,"end":26326.954,"text":"國安會我介紹一下列席所長國安會主任委員 國民信先生跟他報告國安會一共有兩個案請大家看第五案來看一下來"},{"start":26338.716,"end":26355.874,"text":"已經溝通完成了嗎對不對總召辦公室是說本案保留你們不是溝通完成嗎溝通完成決定保留沒關係啦 因為表哥說目前安排過啦"},{"start":26358.973,"end":26373.708,"text":"委員長不好意思我們確定一下因為剛剛那個行政院的那個第21案、第30案還有中選會的那兩個案子原則上我們保留我們不同意該組決議"},{"start":26375.663,"end":26376.884,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":26401.386,"end":26402.047,"text":"在內政委員會"},{"start":26437.199,"end":26437.439,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":26464.568,"end":26466.689,"text":"第六案是時代力量你們有修正嗎 不然就是同意嗎"},{"start":26486.267,"end":26511.052,"text":"剪列20%怎麼可能可以我們是希望可以並委員會凍結啦好啦並委員會啦我們是認為就是議後特別預算3800億之後呢我們的經濟成長率只剩下1.42%嘛是14年來新低那現在剪列的部分我們至少要剪列1%可以嗎"},{"start":26517.611,"end":26519.974,"text":"三千九百二十六萬 減一趴不行"},{"start":26535.26,"end":26559.432,"text":"剪列1%剪列20%修改剪列1%柯木可以自調嗎柯木就自行調整剛才第五案是保留我再重申一遍第六案是改為剪列1%然後柯木自行調整"},{"start":26565.851,"end":26566.211,"text":"國話會告一段落"},{"start":26592.332,"end":26598.655,"text":"那接下來就請經濟部介紹列席的所長介紹列席的所長經濟部部長王美花女士現在就請大家看65案"},{"start":26624.548,"end":26629.131,"text":"65案改成凍結5%這個已經簽名蓋章凍結5%沒有一線通過129案129並130案130案的部分減列1000萬科目自行調整這個也簽名蓋章了這很大方"},{"start":26654.791,"end":26676.018,"text":"一二九案並一三零案那一三零案減列一千萬就是原來一三零案是減列五千萬現在改為減列一千萬我這樣講沒有錯吧那就兩案都通過一二九呢一二九並一三零兩個加起來一千嘛就合併"},{"start":26680.168,"end":26680.468,"text":"致命報告"},{"start":26710.652,"end":26725.404,"text":"市議院報告沒有意見就通過141遵照辦理141就是增列一百萬那就通過那請看146凍結一百六十萬"},{"start":26735.122,"end":26747.147,"text":"剪列改為凍結對不對是好146原來剪列160萬現在改為凍結160萬好沒有意見通過再來請看195案195改為凍結600萬好195原來是剪列600萬現在改為凍結600萬沒有意見通過好來請看207案"},{"start":26762.278,"end":26770.122,"text":"207改為凍結100萬207改為凍結100萬沒有意見通過經濟部就告一段落院長我跟部長講一下部長那個六輕拋砂那個可不可以一個月內來提一個環差請那個工業局"},{"start":26788.473,"end":26788.493,"text":"王國興議員"},{"start":26834.047,"end":26844.856,"text":"現在介紹列席的所長 農業部代理部長陳俊契先生那我們現在請大家看256案"},{"start":26848.372,"end":26855.494,"text":"252案改為主決議 文字修正 民運縣市通過253案我們還是希望能夠不要簡略 然後改成主決議 並修正文字這個案子這個案子就是因為我們也聽過邱總召 邱委員他"},{"start":26877.967,"end":26881.249,"text":"我跟委員說明 因為整個查核的部分 以農產品價一法 它是由縣市 地方縣市政府去查處財閥的部分"},{"start":26904.65,"end":26904.71,"text":"保留"},{"start":26925.165,"end":26925.866,"text":"二五七案"},{"start":26950.927,"end":26955.409,"text":"257案也是建請能夠改成主決議並修正文字257案就是凍結500萬提書面報告做文書修正"},{"start":26978.333,"end":27005.191,"text":"來,280案那280案也是漸行改成主決議的部分那昨天有跟委員說明齁,這個部分我想我們至少動一趴啦,可以嗎?因為一趴就三億至少動一趴我跟委員報告齁,融化條例這個318億裡面﹐很多是補充基金的﹐還有我們冷鏈,非常重要的冷鏈還有那個動物保護的這些環境的一個建設然後希望這個部分,年初一開始就可能就要去執行了"},{"start":27005.931,"end":27007.211,"text":"希望能夠改成主決議農業比較弱勢農業比較弱勢動500"},{"start":27031.345,"end":27056.843,"text":"反正你交報告就可以解凍啦這個沒有說沒有簡列嘛我們現在就凍五百那凍了書面報告就可以解凍了嘛好那如果凍五百我們要修正部分的文字要修正要調整好凍五百五百萬提書面報告然後文字修正好就這樣文字要修正喔好"},{"start":27059.628,"end":27087.773,"text":"沒有意見就這樣通過再來是299案主決議299案也是感謝謝宜旺 謝書記長剛剛有同意做文字的修正改成主決議那就299案主決議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過304案主決議304部分我們希望說能夠改成於三個月內向立法院經濟委員會報告"},{"start":27089.378,"end":27111.793,"text":"304跟332是吳怡丁跟李桂民委員的提案那他們要求保留那我們是不是就保留那314是總召的案子那因為總召的案子是關於農業部的宣傳費的部分那這部分我們今天早上是不是已經討論過通案的部分是不是就按照通案"},{"start":27114.995,"end":27125.664,"text":"那314就車案改到通案 併到通案區就好了那304就保留那3321就保留那314就併通案辦理"},{"start":27137.447,"end":27140.369,"text":"農委會去告一段落 農益部去告一段落好 謝謝委員"},{"start":27164.799,"end":27165.88,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27196.596,"end":27216.646,"text":"我們現在就進行文化部主管的提案那首先介紹 類席的首長 文化部部長史哲先生好 謝謝 那我們接下來就來看228案那228案是改組決議嘛齁"},{"start":27218.773,"end":27244.379,"text":"就是少動一點啦好不好少動一點就是一百萬然後交報告就可以了同意修改文字啦有修改文字可以啦就是動一百可以嗎你交報告就可以解動阿可是只有修改文字阿這裡不是改組決議嗎改組決議了嘛已經改組決議了阿你們已經簽字了阿"},{"start":27246.358,"end":27250.602,"text":"228案就改組決議 文字修正沒有意見通過229案就保留 對不對"},{"start":27275.391,"end":27275.571,"text":"主席"},{"start":27298.342,"end":27304.425,"text":"主協議 作文字修正 明日會見修正通過"},{"start":27326.394,"end":27326.834,"text":"二十七組決議"},{"start":27343.343,"end":27347.864,"text":"主席"},{"start":27372.779,"end":27378.764,"text":"現在完整會議那是否我們這樣還有表示說如果NCC對他的言論不同的話就有什麼打算?"},{"start":27437.671,"end":27460.477,"text":"我們繼續 現在要討論國家通信傳播委員會主管的部分首先介紹 列席的首長國家通信傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥先生接下來請大家看 第一案第一案有沒有意見"},{"start":27467.609,"end":27493.709,"text":"有修正的在哪裡可不可以有修正的文字嗎可不可以並委員結一半禮好啦 並委員結一半禮好了"},{"start":27495.199,"end":27495.919,"text":"第9案保留"},{"start":27520.387,"end":27525.469,"text":"第四案徹北會徹北會你一案就好了嘛你總要徹北會怎麼兩個案子啊你看清楚啦沒有兩個案保留"},{"start":27550.285,"end":27555.847,"text":"對阿你那個三個案那如果有問題我們再請那個NCC來辦公室那就先保留阿先保留 院長保留這個都是特別費"},{"start":27575.595,"end":27577.636,"text":"十四的保留十三案的保留"},{"start":27602.728,"end":27630.128,"text":"那十四案是不是要並委會接辦理那個民眾黨來這個十四案的部分我們要保留十四十五都保留都要保留都一樣嘛都一樣就好了保留保留我們表決的時候大家不要有精神對不對來十六案保留十六案謝司機長"},{"start":27632.332,"end":27633.052,"text":"19案 主結議20案 主結議21案 主結議"},{"start":27663.891,"end":27664.391,"text":"二十二案組結議"},{"start":27692.501,"end":27692.902,"text":"歐四案"},{"start":27713.251,"end":27715.012,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":27743.905,"end":27773.003,"text":"接下來國家運輸安全調查委員會國家運輸安全調查委員會主管的部分介紹類型的首長國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信德先生"},{"start":27775.36,"end":27798.855,"text":"接下來我們就請大家看31案31案我們可以同意3案最後一句話我們事實上政府保守程序已經在做了"},{"start":27799.397,"end":27799.998,"text":"最後一句是拿幾個字"},{"start":27826.968,"end":27829.149,"text":"並經本院交通委員會 同意厚實的動資"},{"start":27855.553,"end":27855.873,"text":"主席"},{"start":27871.243,"end":27896.743,"text":"好啦好啦還是保留啊沒有啦沒有保留啊沒有留也沒關係啦使得動之四個字要留下來啦好 同意我以為你是說後面那個計算掉是一百萬算掉就是到動之就同意那兩個字拿掉就對了好啦"},{"start":27897.352,"end":27899.774,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":27932.014,"end":27932.676,"text":"休息五分鐘"},{"start":28175.916,"end":28176.276,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":28218.725,"end":28223.388,"text":"現在要進行交通部主管的部分現在就請大家看75案"},{"start":28231.465,"end":28258.75,"text":"七十五案七十五案跟院長報告這個已經跟委員這邊溝通了他同意改組決議文那文字是最後我們有書面資料那個等於倒數第五行開始之後刪掉然後文字改為請交通部持續關注道路交通安全議題好同意改組決議好有了齁同意同意好七十五案就修組決議文字修正那沒有意見就通過好來七十七案"},{"start":28261.67,"end":28288.46,"text":"77案這邊就是還是要動啦然後不併委員會不併委員會就是不要經過委員會同意後使得動作就刪掉那幾個字好是併委員會解一半你們對不對沒有因為剛剛陳委員希望獨立動啦那獨立動的話就是不要後面有話說經委員會同意因為同意的話變成要專案報告就不是書面報告了"},{"start":28290.417,"end":28298.183,"text":"第七十七案委員會已經動了一億三千萬那你再動一億三千萬好像你這個是六億的十分之一啦先保留啦"},{"start":28311.317,"end":28336.074,"text":"再跟蘇董交通一下我可不可以說明一下跟我的報告就是說你這裡擬計書面報告OK啦我們是說金本願交通委員會同意這個是刪掉就擬計書面報告使得動之這樣好不好這個就是那個動決就沒有問題嘛我覺得我們就寫好啦那就這樣文字修正嘛就這樣"},{"start":28338.038,"end":28340.98,"text":"本院交通委員會同意那個不要刪"},{"start":28365.634,"end":28393.593,"text":"還要經過同意嗎那個不要刪這樣子好嗎可是要董事長這個不要刪一般都是這樣子啊一般都是寫提示文報告使得動之啊這個文字不要刪這樣子不是跟那個文報我們的在交通委員會也都一樣不會寫什麼跟經交通委員會同意這個本來就是自私就這樣不同意的話還會再處理嗎我們所有的都是這樣就是書文報告使得動之都這樣都這樣啊就不是那個是這樣"},{"start":28395.287,"end":28396.948,"text":"檢列50萬 凍結五分之一"},{"start":28424.181,"end":28433.347,"text":"好 那就保留啦好 來 謝謝交通部就到此告一段落 好 來接下來事發部介紹列席的所長"},{"start":28455.496,"end":28464.109,"text":"數位發展部部長唐鳳部長來接下來就請看249案改正列五千萬元"},{"start":28473.683,"end":28497.556,"text":"有溝通嗎?有,這些是賴委員有簽字改增列五千萬元,大家有沒有意見?沒有意見就通過請問一下蘇發部你們做得到嗎?增列五千萬是不是跟委員會合併加五千萬元?委員會兩千嘛你變成五千啊?做不到議組所長嗎?"},{"start":28500.276,"end":28508.231,"text":"應該是可以做不到也沒關係啦,反正這個是期待值而已啦做不到也沒關係,又有議組所長的問題"},{"start":28512.278,"end":28512.859,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":28537.005,"end":28538.306,"text":"改正列三千萬人266案通山科目"},{"start":28556.269,"end":28580.314,"text":"有溝通那刪減的部分沒有問題那就是因為它是科目可以自行調整所以我們建議說可以拿到這個委辦會本來會刪嘛它是屬於通商科目啦通商的啦對對對通商會處理這樣是是好謝謝那這樣我們就通案辦理好不好通商科目就通案辦理通商科目比這個多欸可能會比這個多齁我發現比這個多了來"},{"start":28584.861,"end":28585.221,"text":"改為主決議"},{"start":28614.838,"end":28614.858,"text":"269案"},{"start":28630.56,"end":28658.261,"text":"剪列一百萬那這個科目能不能在一般行政 行政項目下來調整這樣啦齁 二六九案 剪列一百萬年科目執行調整就這樣好好 每日券就這樣來 二七零案剪列一千五百萬 對不對有溝通嗎等一下 等一下等一下 來就 從"},{"start":28661.761,"end":28663.343,"text":"委員長這樣可以嗎?科目有沒有一樣啊?"},{"start":28683.387,"end":28684.567,"text":"總數達到1500就是賴氏堡委員要求的這個就是"},{"start":28709.711,"end":28734.658,"text":"應該是把委員都放在專業施設心堂呢報期年案就等於併委員會那這個剪列一共剪列1500萬就這樣就加一個併委員會結議那個就是說委員會全部的就是剪列1500萬總數"},{"start":28738.794,"end":28750.182,"text":"主席長這樣可以嗎可以所以還是你同意才有用不是我同意通過二七四案改檢列250萬元這有資訊服務費"},{"start":28754.895,"end":28763.705,"text":"我們科目希望能夠提在工作計畫向下來簡略科目執行調整在科目計畫範圍內調整科目執行調整 但是用兩個字會不會"},{"start":28772.594,"end":28774.695,"text":"你會不會寫 寫清楚要寫清楚嗎我看科目自行調整這樣會流淡性他上面寫科目自調嘛"},{"start":28800.615,"end":28804.417,"text":"這個有沒有過通啊保留這個五千萬不得了好保留"},{"start":28832.031,"end":28847.505,"text":"好來,280案這個一樣從這個大科目來自行調整好,那檢列1000科目自行調整對不對112,減500好不好哪一個12280啊減500對啊,他才112而已"},{"start":28861.462,"end":28889.853,"text":"他委員會是多少?委員會是一二五百五百就好了有沒有人檢過的?這就溝通過了,一千啊,減一千怎麼樣?同意簡列還是?你們當初為什麼同意簡列?"},{"start":28891.175,"end":28894.499,"text":"可以嗎希望能夠少減一點那800好了這個鄉府已經減1550在這裡一直減"},{"start":28905.152,"end":28911.196,"text":"前面有撿一個千五啦他答應賴氏保沒有啦 減比較久的啦可以啦六百好啦五百啦 你剛才就說五百啦五百啦"},{"start":28923.303,"end":28928.089,"text":"我是幫賴氏堡委員講的阿不然你讓人家沒民主 要答應賴氏堡阿你現在阿現在答應一千萬阿現在我們願意五百五百啦 五百"},{"start":28939.904,"end":28940.945,"text":"沒有建議就通過"},{"start":28969.051,"end":28989.075,"text":"來再來是285案你們都同意啊那是法委員沒有啦那是法委員叫的方式不是私人行政啊不是 他們都同意啊他們都已經同意了啊我給大家報告"},{"start":28994.183,"end":29016.018,"text":"這個委員會他已經有凍結十分之一阿這邊再簡歷阿你跟他不理黨阿不然委員會就好了阿放多少啦好啦 兩百五啦 一樣啦兩百啦 五百五二百五不好啦 兩百就好了阿二百五就是你剛剛提的 什麼二百五不好你這人齁好啦好啦 兩百五十萬啦你講就可以了 兩百五十萬來來來293"},{"start":29024.014,"end":29036.065,"text":"292是動輒十分之一因為委員會已經動輒十分之一保留292就保留293兵285案處理兵285兵285就兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285�"},{"start":29054.069,"end":29057.733,"text":"凍結十分之一那委員會已經凍結兩千萬啦並委員會改書面好了"},{"start":29077.109,"end":29081.895,"text":"這也很麻煩,因為他們都自己去簽名了那種情境我可以想像出來"},{"start":29085.009,"end":29114.087,"text":"總結總結總結"},{"start":29114.673,"end":29121.035,"text":"委員會已經凍結兩千萬這個十分之一就等於五千萬委員會有兩千萬就等於是凍結七千萬數目蠻大的"},{"start":29134.804,"end":29135.564,"text":"好 凍結1000萬 沒有意見通過好"},{"start":29165.117,"end":29182.296,"text":"那322通商科目就通案處理好不好接下來就是325也是通商科目我們就通案處理那326通商科目也通案處理330改檢列700萬那"},{"start":29185.731,"end":29203.258,"text":"委員會已經減列三千萬,又凍結十分之一,那大家要不要再評估看看?改組決議就好了,好不好?哪一條?委員會已經減三千了啊?330案委員會減三千又凍結十分之一,這個改組決議就可以了"},{"start":29203.865,"end":29206.486,"text":"問題是蘇發布他自己去同意的千五萬 十萬 百萬是七億"},{"start":29226.092,"end":29246.665,"text":"像這個知安他們也應該不要同意啊因為知安對民眾很重要欸結果他們自己去同意那我們要怎麼辦你不能為行政單位卸責欸民進黨團應該的啊因為那時候答應的時候人會想說書記長會不會幫我們增加啊"},{"start":29254.197,"end":29254.517,"text":"製安不應該減"},{"start":29275.836,"end":29283.319,"text":"這是行政部門應該說明的嘛為什麼你們去那裡同意 變成我們在這裏要替他們說明跟委員報告因為我們產業署這個是給產業的輔導的經費啦委員會的部分已經減三千萬然後動十分之一如果變委員會的話對產業我們希望多爭取一點經費 以上報告"},{"start":29304.891,"end":29305.031,"text":"委員會結議辦理"},{"start":29331.109,"end":29333.37,"text":"那免疫線就通過好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":29385.438,"end":29399.279,"text":"好 我們繼續好不好我們兩點半 到現在已經超過兩個小時了大家滿辛苦的 來 要休息喔"},{"start":29403.789,"end":29406.191,"text":"人事行政總署 介紹歷史所長 人事長蘇俊榮先生案號22"},{"start":29430.092,"end":29430.372,"text":"國事論壇拜告"},{"start":29461.891,"end":29478.986,"text":"司法院主管介紹司法院秘書長吳山隆先生還有台灣高等法院院長高金枝女士我們現在就請大家看92案"},{"start":29488.141,"end":29500.314,"text":"有進一步的消息嗎有溝通啦有溝 沒有通他說明天早上就會通了啦這些都保留啦"},{"start":29502.745,"end":29518.238,"text":"那這樣就就請保留他說還給他想一下,他明天就會不必啦,我們先保留,又保留,又保結就算了這個讓他突顯一下,為什麼可以這樣搞那背後的演藝嘛,讓他公知,讓社會知道"},{"start":29519.319,"end":29520.32,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":29548.717,"end":29573.825,"text":"考試院主管的部分那我介紹列席的首長 前書部部長 周志鴻先生來 那請大家看124案改為主決議 有沒有意見哪裡124案好 同意好 同意喔 就有溝通啦 有溝有通好 那就通過 124案就通過好 謝謝"},{"start":29575.197,"end":29575.217,"text":"143案"},{"start":29593.816,"end":29599.622,"text":"這個案謝謝謝委員已經撤案了謝謝謝委員那個院長我跟秘書長講一下秘書長我上個月質詢的案子後來有跟監委、市監委討論"},{"start":29611.813,"end":29639.239,"text":"的確是你們之前監察院的調查有疏失那個委員我跟您報告一下那個案子已經發過三次新聞稿說明是認知不同而已不是監委有疏失這個非常清楚報告內容是有錯的這個也不是我能處理的他也會重新再審理所以這個部分還是要跟秘書長公開說明我回去轉達你不用轉達我是讓你知道"},{"start":29639.699,"end":29640.32,"text":"法務部主管"},{"start":29663.151,"end":29685.866,"text":"那法務部部長因為另有公務那他趕不過來有打電話來請假向他報告一下好來 那我們現在就介紹列席的首長就是法務部政府司長蔡碧中先生我們就請大家看211案怎麼樣"},{"start":29692.899,"end":29701.483,"text":"主席主席總召211案211保留213案保留211 213保留好那謝謝我們就告一段落需要解釋嗎要不要解釋"},{"start":29723.954,"end":29725.095,"text":"衛環衛環衛環衛環衛環衛環幾個案6個案6個案好來有沒有溝通"},{"start":29749.386,"end":29760.116,"text":"有公別通 還是已經溝通完畢有啦 通山通山 至少有兩個通山改凍結250萬至少有三個案"},{"start":29785.009,"end":29787.13,"text":"報告主席 我們這個是有修改文字"},{"start":29814.409,"end":29814.769,"text":"1、2、8保留"},{"start":29843.726,"end":29851.652,"text":"131有修正文字已經有簽名131主決議做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":29872.003,"end":29896.484,"text":"148組決議做文字修正沒有異證就修正通過212是通商 213是通商 這兩個案我們就通案處理好不好一起處理 邱委員的跟我的案子"},{"start":29898.986,"end":29917.442,"text":"我們還是希望他們在做監管營 全國的監管營把所有的資料傳到營端 擔心資安風險所以還是希望他們做好社會溝通 然後再來解凍"},{"start":29918.423,"end":29928.975,"text":"所以不是要他上來預算沒有你做好社會公司來解凍這個案子就不必搞了沒有這樣 他們已經在溝通了那個資安的問題不會有問題大家都還很擔心"},{"start":29934.941,"end":29955.568,"text":"你要 他們溝通我們沒有意見但是不是溝通好再來解凍然後也不可能那這個案子就沒有了吧我們常常有這種解凍案啊委員會常常在處理解凍案怎麼沒有咧這麼多解凍之後然後去執行啊凍結就是這個意思啊這不是我發明的"},{"start":29958.109,"end":29982.997,"text":"總召你怎麼這樣講不是啦 你要凍多少啦對啦凍多少嘛凍多少啦現在是全數喔你全數凍結的所以啊 現在我就是說 這樣啦溝通啦 凍百分之八十讓他們開始執行然後就去溝通這樣啦 你拿啦 你拿啦我怎麼拿啦 大家再來會啊 溝通多少要凍結多少這個案子喔是要敦促他們去做社會溝通"},{"start":29984.037,"end":30002.555,"text":"現在人家在看怎麼說的我都知道來源我很清楚人家都知道但是這個有一個很重要的事情就是說這不只有一萬方面的事情加長端的你要考慮一下你要把這個制度弄好對不對"},{"start":30003.235,"end":30004.696,"text":"中央政府總預算部分．．"},{"start":30025.845,"end":30026.926,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":30048.643,"end":30048.763,"text":"暫時保留"},{"start":30073.024,"end":30089.568,"text":"期待我們四個黨團繼續溝通那看在什麼時候 三天內還是怎麼樣就是提出一個共同的提案出來這樣好不好好 處理之前處理之前嘛 不行就處理 要MV處理嘛好不好 那就這樣嘛我們就把它列入會記錄好不好好 這個才是列入會記錄這樣喔好 那就這樣 好來"},{"start":30102.478,"end":30110.888,"text":"那請看二二一案要不要再聲明一下"},{"start":30115.616,"end":30117.918,"text":"因為小孩子是不會哭訴、不會講話"},{"start":30134.907,"end":30153.924,"text":"尤其是我們的部分的話,托嬰是兩歲以下的所以這是為了保護兒童的權益那第二個,這個監管其實是對雙方都有利因為我們的數字是這樣子從開始我們要求修法之後,要求都設監視器之後"},{"start":30155.345,"end":30169.612,"text":"到現在為止有問題的立案的是114案是有不當對待的案子其中有10%是掉入境帶的時候是掉不到"},{"start":30172.398,"end":30188.184,"text":"所以我們才會起這個議就是說需要有一個立案終止都同意啦我們也認同而且保護我們這個兒童的這個權益還有但是現在重點是資訊的管理資安的管理還有國人的疑慮這個部分"},{"start":30190.665,"end":30217.842,"text":"這個因為老實講 個資外洩的問題已經太嚴重了而且現在網路的駭客非常厲害那如果這些小朋友的這些被監管的資訊被不當利用到其他的網站或是其他的案文的系統現在就有在錄影我知道 所以我們今天已經決定了嘛我們這三個黨我們在用會之前我們會這個案子我們會支持 我們會支持好不好"},{"start":30219.567,"end":30225.671,"text":"現在環境部介紹列席的所長環境部部長薛富聖先生"},{"start":30253.034,"end":30254.936,"text":"好 只有一個案 那請大家看18 看221案"},{"start":30260.092,"end":30286.093,"text":"這個溝通我現在才看到文字那我要說明說明就是前環保署的一級主管長崎信燒那陳欽仁都有跟前環保署陳情那前環保署長就是張子敬先生他都只有口頭告誡"},{"start":30287.216,"end":30316.227,"text":"那只有口頭告誡當然現在環境部有調查對不對那有調查我們希望能夠針對調查報告的處理的情形要對外公布嘛我想很多受害人現在即使這個案子已經調查但是他們對於加害者還有對於包庇的情形我想一輩子都沒有辦法走出來所以"},{"start":30316.808,"end":30317.932,"text":"本席只是針對這個調查報告要求要"},{"start":30322.443,"end":30348.861,"text":"發布新聞稿那發布新聞稿現在環境部把第一行刪掉了本席認為這個不應該啦所以不應該現在環境部還有整個執政黨包括院長還要為包庇者來包庇所以這個第一行的文字請不要刪除這樣我們就可以同意以上說明"},{"start":30352.96,"end":30376.306,"text":"改動捷250萬有意見嗎第一行沒有意見第一行的文字就是保留不要刪除那這樣有沒有問題我們還是建議可以做文字修正後面的文字修正我們可以接受第一行的文字請不要刪除現在對文字有意見你們黨團有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":30381.651,"end":30407.625,"text":"保留 那就保留啦我想那個柯總召你這邊要保留我剛剛已經說明的很清楚非常多的受害者針對張子敬前署長的包庇他們到現在還在看醫生還在陷入被害的情境中那現在只是公布這個調查的情形把張子敬前署長的"},{"start":30409.217,"end":30411.02,"text":"處理情形發布新聞稿"},{"start":30415.879,"end":30440.969,"text":"我們接受發布新聞稿我們會做對阿你接受你就不要保留阿你就讓這個對阿你要調整對阿我們只是說調整同意阿那就是第一行的文字等一下第一行的文字就是不要刪除阿就這樣子而已阿我們其他的接受阿你聽一下這個想法齁"},{"start":30441.989,"end":30456.316,"text":"其實完全都同意應該要嚴格的調查而且調查的結果要完全公開但至於到底事實是如何我覺得可以留待調查的結果調查完跟公開大家就一清二楚調查完了報告院長都看過了部長他們都看過現在就是針對已經調查完了要"},{"start":30462.919,"end":30487.577,"text":"公布這個要發布信務稿說明這樣而已阿所以就是在這邊阿所以這是同意大家同意這件事情阿只是說第一行的這個文字不要刪掉而已阿有鑒於有鑒於前環保署長張子晉涉嫌包庇環保署之郎之性騷案這個部分不要刪除阿就這一句而已阿這是事實阿為什麼要把事實刪除呢陳委員我來說"},{"start":30491.46,"end":30520.352,"text":"我來講幾句話就是說第一點就是說還是我們如果要那個通過還是要黨團要有共識不過我在這邊講如果像這樣的話我也是贊成要嚴辦嚴查但是我們的國家整個體制我們是民主政治它有你可以用刑事的處刑事處分可以有民事的處分可以有行政的處分那也可以"},{"start":30521.452,"end":30537.377,"text":"找機會到 就是說在國會 針對我們這個部長 現在的經營部長來跟他執行 但是我說在預算裡面好像怪怪的那他只要發布新聞稿就可以解凍啊"},{"start":30538.357,"end":30539.258,"text":"只要把調查報告﹑內容說明他們怎麼處理這個事情就這樣而已啊沒有再質詢"},{"start":30557.595,"end":30559.076,"text":"因為沒有共識我們本案就保留好 謝謝大家"},{"start":30587.53,"end":30608.975,"text":"我們今天的案 沒了吧 告一段落通山的來 通山的就開始處理來通山的那個比例 審查的程序這個事要先讀一下嗎那我先跟大家報告齁 來"},{"start":30622.104,"end":30625.41,"text":"這是要給通商的同僚講還是先講"},{"start":30630.02,"end":30658.626,"text":"好來先講好來113年度中央政府總預算案朝野黨團協商討論程序及決定事項一討論程序協商順序為先行討論通案決議再依審查分配表所排定各委員會稅入稅出部分送院會處理項目之順序討論最後再再行討論機密預算部分以協商各自單位如無"},{"start":30659.286,"end":30676.36,"text":"未決之提案則不再處理二、決定事項一、113年度中央政府總預算案含機密部分審查總報告所列未送院會處理項目除確有自在難行再協商一、協商結論通過外其餘均照個人會審查會議皆通過"},{"start":30681.124,"end":30703.205,"text":"至送宴會處理項目﹐協商有結論者﹐依協商結論通過﹐協商未獲結論者﹐交付表決﹐並依表決結果通過﹐令黨團協商之凍結內容﹐經並委員會凍結案處理﹐依協商結論通過者﹐經不再依宣讀扁中依依序明"},{"start":30705.468,"end":30726.563,"text":"113年度中央政府總預算案先行審議單位預算（其受及副屬單位預算營業（及非營業部分均佔照例是副屬單位預算審議確定或再行調整3.113年度中央政府總預算案稅出正式別部分（隨同稅出"},{"start":30729.571,"end":30742.776,"text":"．機關別審議結果予以調整．構委員會審查結果含禁閉部分．協商結論均應依通案決議辦理．不再逐一與構機關協商結果續名．構機關均應確實依通案決議何時分別刪減．為構委員會審查刪減訴"},{"start":30751.62,"end":30761.891,"text":"如欲通案決議刪減比例﹐以個人會審查刪減數為準﹐未達通案決議刪減比例﹐則增加檢列不足之數接下來"},{"start":30781.907,"end":30785.39,"text":"113年度總預算案 針對各機關所屬通案刪減用途別項目 預理如下"},{"start":30800.562,"end":30816.674,"text":"1.檢列大陸地區理會2.檢列國外理會及出國教育訓練會不含現行法律明文規定支出3.檢列委辦會不含現行法律條文規定支出4.檢列房屋建築養護會、車輛及辦公區養護會、壽司及機械設備養護會"},{"start":30826.381,"end":30844.733,"text":"5.檢列軍事裝備及授書3%6.檢列一般事務會﹐不含現行法律明論規定支出3%7.檢列媒體政策及業務宣導會﹐不含農委會防檢局﹐衛福部局管局及一千萬以下機關25%這邊還寫農委會這個我改一下農業部"},{"start":30863.777,"end":30869.641,"text":"8.檢列售備及投資不含現行法律評論規定支出資產作價投資及增資台定公司9."},{"start":30869.641,"end":30872.003,"text":"檢列對國內團體資建築及政府機關建築補助不含現行法律評論規定支出"},{"start":30880.329,"end":30894.358,"text":"10.檢列對地方政府的補助﹐不然現行法律明文規定支出﹐及一般性補助款4%11.全市1至6項﹐允許在業務費科目範圍內調整12.全市9至10項﹐允許在將補助費科目範圍內調整14.若有透視困難﹐無法一上該原則調整則﹐可提出其他可刪減項目﹐兼主計總製"},{"start":30909.007,"end":30932.086,"text":"選核同意後予以代替補足十四如總刪減數為答案兩百九十九億元瓜府扣除增資台電公司及撥補勞保基金後約百分之一點一二瓜府另予補足這案今年差不多吧大家都手上都有嗎也就說要兩百九九億吧"},{"start":30937.412,"end":30955.545,"text":"主席只要不夠他另外補另外調整好OK好那就沒有意見就通過了好來再來寫這個選項結論的參考決定事項都一樣這個決定事項都一樣選項結論的草稿"},{"start":30963.971,"end":30992.615,"text":"好來那對於協商結論草稿我現在來宣讀一下請大家齁阿如果有意見再隨處歡迎提出決定事項一各黨團同意113年度總預算案之討論程序及決定事項如附件一通過針對國際觀所屬通案刪減用途別項目括弧含行政院主計總處整理之名序內容括弧如附件二"},{"start":30993.854,"end":31019.425,"text":"通案提案及各委員會通過之協商內容含保留部分如附件三由各委員會整理編讀版及保留版上開附件一至二由財政委員會會長送各黨團確認附件三由各委員會送各黨團確認後送財政委員會附件一至三由財政委員會於12月18日 上午10時"},{"start":31021.207,"end":31035.861,"text":"前送議事處．供應會處理本案於12月19日星期二應會進行處理非保留部分先讀後均予以通過保留部分進行處理前由時代力量黨團、臺灣民眾黨團、國民黨黨團、民進黨黨團各推派一人發言室去授權議事處處理"},{"start":31045.99,"end":31070.259,"text":"每人發言時間如三分鐘 發言完畢後 各保留提案兼不再發言即案 通案 個人會次序進行各保留提案之處理三 貶處協商各項提案 兼予以刊登公報記錄有沒有意見沒有意見發言之就是 咬下去講一次就可以了可以啦好"},{"start":31074.969,"end":31081.174,"text":"決定事項是113年"},{"start":31099.026,"end":31111.891,"text":"自113年1月1日期 本院每月立法會員及各黨團公會助理之治理會增加4%每月購為458,990元及573,735元令適用勞動基準法所需加班會 不休假加班會等相關經費增加4%每月購為91,800元及114,750元"},{"start":31129.895,"end":31133.536,"text":"因為正在簽字中,院長先講一下這一段"},{"start":31150.821,"end":31161.064,"text":"現在預算案協商結論各黨團在簽字中跟大家說明一下下星期二應會各黨團要動員來進行貶次應會預算案及有關議案的表決為了當日表決順利我們貶次會議就尋例不處理臨時提案"},{"start":31172.168,"end":31172.369,"text":"主席"},{"start":31184.454,"end":31194.522,"text":"現在各黨團都已經有在簽了我們就繼續簽各黨團請各黨團大家能夠盡快簽字繼續簽簽完就依協商結論整理相關資料畢共宴會處理那現在"},{"start":31209.964,"end":31223.362,"text":"院長不好意思有沒有意見來那個請教就是我們房屋稅的那個協商是不是禮拜一早上禮拜一早上沒有問題早上下午都沒有問題禮拜一只有那個下午都早上好不好"},{"start":31224.414,"end":31225.355,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":31245.759,"end":31272.602,"text":"那我們立法院的這個所有的幕僚同仁就要辛苦了請大家趕快做資料的整理整理以利於這個接下來的這個會議的進行還有沒有意見 如果沒有就沒有要選會喔"},{"start":31275.117,"end":31275.577,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15354","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15354","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6854f924cb68922450b90a0be61fea1481846d53a332764a53511a4bd7ddade59bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-14","start_time":"2023-12-14T08:30:30+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-14T11:26:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":10530,"委員發言時間":"08:30:30 - 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在COP28把台灣我們對於整個氣候變遷因應的做法跟全世界來分享"},{"start":2452.714,"end":2469.999,"text":"那剛剛有提到這一次COP28在阿拉伯聯合大公國杜拜來舉行那除了COP28之外事實上還有京都協定書第18次的第8方的大會"},{"start":2470.899,"end":2496.908,"text":"也就是所謂的CMP18以及巴黎協定第五次第二方大會也就是CMA5以及第59次附屬機構的會議SB59而同步進行有將近超過9萬人出席這次的會議可以說是COP舉辦到目前為止規模最大的一次"},{"start":2500.353,"end":2521.763,"text":"阿拉伯聯合大公國提出的四大行動主軸包括能源轉型與鈦除化石燃料解決氣候融資問題加速糧食系統轉型以及提升包容性的氣候行動"},{"start":2523.184,"end":2539.251,"text":"事實上我們在事先也對媒體記者來表達既然四大主題當中有特別強調提升包容性把台灣排除在DA方實在是非常諷刺的一個做法"},{"start":2540.373,"end":2568.023,"text":"那這個會議本來是要在12月12號就結束但是大家對化石燃料的減少跟剔除事實上有很大的疑議那最後妥協的結果是用一個中性的字眼就是轉型脫離化石燃料也就是英文變成Transition away from fossil fuel"},{"start":2569.383,"end":2595.976,"text":"那我想這個是大家後來非常期待的一個結果那我接下來把這一次的會議重點如列成三個大項來這邊報告那第一個就是在會議的第一天就獲得議會參與者大家的共識成立了損失與損害的基金也就是Loss and Damage Fund"},{"start":2598.033,"end":2602.764,"text":"到目前為止已經獲得多國承諾資助達到7.26億美元"},{"start":2608.257,"end":2629.648,"text":"那這基金現在是暫時由世界銀行來代為執行那部分的國家提議是應該是成立要新的組織來處理這些基金未來的一個使用跟申請的這個程序那目前在這一方面還在進行當中"},{"start":2631.969,"end":2648.204,"text":"那第二個重點是剛剛提到有關如何做能源的一個轉型那這裡面很清楚的第一國多數也都同意要在2030年"},{"start":2649.986,"end":2666.896,"text":"要把再生能源跟現在來比要達到三倍也就是說未來剩下的七年當中要增加兩倍的再生能源那同時要提升能源效率一倍"},{"start":2668.116,"end":2689.543,"text":"我想這兩點跟我們在去年國發會所發布的2050淨零排放路線圖事實上是不某而合這個是很令人欣慰我們可以說是超前部署另外在減碳科技來持續擴增發展"},{"start":2691.482,"end":2713.58,"text":"那剛剛也提到的化石燃料原本是從face down跟face out變成transition away from fossil fuel所以事實上是有比較中性的字眼但是在其層方面並沒有很明確的來說明到底要怎麼去transition away from fossil fuel"},{"start":2714.541,"end":2743.881,"text":"另外對於CCES的燃煤電廠應該要排除換句話說未來再探捕捉封存跟利用要來持續的強化也呼籲各國要取消對於低效化石燃料的補助同時強化零排放硬具的加強部署"},{"start":2745.081,"end":2760.586,"text":"第三個談到的是有關很多國家在會議當中也提出了一些倡議這些倡議涵蓋的面向也非常的多但是並沒有獲得多數國的一個認同"},{"start":2762.926,"end":2784.796,"text":"這裏面當然也包括氣候跟健康的宣言以及再生低碳氫能以及其衍生物的宣言以及全球冷卻行動的承諾這塊事實上也在我們2050的近年排放路徑圖裏面我們要持續來強化我們對於冷媒的使用等等"},{"start":2791.755,"end":2809.043,"text":"那接下來我針對我們這一次參議的一個情況在這邊跟各位委員報告那這一次的參議的部會剛剛事實上在主席裡面有提到"},{"start":2809.883,"end":2825.095,"text":"在座各個部會事實上都積極的參與除了各部會之外事實上我們的NGO以及我們的產業界、學術界跟研究單位也都積極的參與規模應該也是國內歷年來參加COP會議裡面最多的一次"},{"start":2832.08,"end":2842.349,"text":"在這邊也特別感謝我們大院四個黨團也分別有代表包括在座的洪森和瑞妍也蒞臨我們的會場來視導提供很多"},{"start":2847.754,"end":2849.314,"text":"提供我們很多的幫忙,在這邊也特別謝謝趙偉抵達會場。"},{"start":2869.71,"end":2884.757,"text":"那另外就是有關友邦的職員跟雙邊的會談方面今年除了友邦力挺我們之外很多沒有邦交國的這些代表跟國會議員也分別以書面"},{"start":2888.519,"end":2916.676,"text":"以及跟我們進行雙邊的一個會談來交換對於淨零轉型的一些心得總計今年我們進行的雙邊會談達到46場所以是相當相當的具有收穫那這邊也特別感謝行政院花園人還有我們外交部的長官"},{"start":2917.576,"end":2945.948,"text":"我就不把名字講出來事實上我們這一次也可以說是部會首長參與的層級人數最多人員也最多的一次那另外我在這邊也特別針對這一次為了COP28我們也在當地有做了包括宣傳車以及看板的一個廣告在捷運站等等"},{"start":2946.789,"end":2962.07,"text":"獲得相當正面的一個回應也特別感謝外交部在事先在各大媒體來進行投書包括環境部的投書等等後續來講我想這一次COP的"},{"start":2963.772,"end":2975.044,"text":"結論很清楚我們感到很欣慰的就是臺灣雖然不是第一方的一份子可是我們推動2050的淨零排放我們氣候變遷因應法的立法"},{"start":2981.27,"end":2997.535,"text":"等等的措施都讓第一方以及參與者對台灣推動淨零的決心感到非常的佩服那我在這邊也再一次呼籲我們在淨零排放的這個路徑上"},{"start":2998.355,"end":3017.593,"text":"我們持續地往前我相信世界都看到臺灣我們也會盡全力來推動我們的淨零排放路徑圖以上報告恭請執政也敬祝主席以及各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝各位 謝謝謝謝 謝謝薛部長"},{"start":3025.359,"end":3052.915,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料列入紀錄刊登公報不好意思 部長剛剛那個隔壁間要在審預算可能10點的時候 他們說10點左右會請您過去所以就要請您的請次長代理就這樣子 好 謝謝"},{"start":3055.652,"end":3081.256,"text":"現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出與其不受理今天沒有休息時間原則上11點半處理臨時提案10點半截止收案"},{"start":3082.973,"end":3086.335,"text":"現在請登記的第一位委員 洪聖翰 洪委員發言呃 請薛部長 然後李次長還有那個曾次長尤其行政單位官員們 謝謝"},{"start":3116.743,"end":3129.62,"text":"部長好兩位次長好那我想其實這一次COP28其實經歷了兩個禮拜的相關的會議每年都是這個國際上面秋變遷討論最重要的盛事之一齁"},{"start":3130.629,"end":3148.144,"text":"那這兩個禮拜裡面當然有很多重要的討論跟波折那一直到昨天應該是到甚至到昨天的深夜最後的這個共識其實才做了這個產出那我想大家其實都盯到最後一刻"},{"start":3149.065,"end":3167.429,"text":"那我想先問一個事情其實在這個第一週的這個談判裡面在第一週的會議進行的時間裡面有我覺得台灣的媒體做了蠻多的報導的一個事情就是這個好像有二十幾個國家那他們發出了這個所謂2050會要三倍"},{"start":3170.951,"end":3177.236,"text":"合能的這個倡議就部長就你了解這個事情是最後我們這個大會的結論跟共識嗎"},{"start":3179.929,"end":3202.512,"text":"沒有,事實上沒有得到共識,因為其他有共識的都將近200個國家,那剛剛宏偉提到才22個而且那22個大部分都是本身在這個核能發展以及產業方面事實上也算相當成熟的,他們使用核能力也很高"},{"start":3203.252,"end":3231.424,"text":"對 所以我們剛剛看到其實那幾天的媒體出來後我們有幾位在黨的總統候選哇 這非常非常興奮甚至直接把它寫成說這是COP28的共識我想這並不是一個事實好 那下面我想這個下一張那這個我想請問曾市長其實我想大家其實已經看到甚至現在有人把它定名為叫做這個UAE共識阿聯酋共識在阿聯酋共識裡面其實我們看到在這一次的談判裡面最清楚跟最具體的一個"},{"start":3232.844,"end":3254.749,"text":"一個條文其實就是在於我這邊標紅字2030年以前要將再生能源裝置量提升三倍以及每年平均的能源效率提升兩倍這部分這一段時間因為這個想法的提出來並不是在只是在最後包括在一開始會議的時候就提出來我想這部分經部有沒有做一些相關的幕僚作業跟討論"},{"start":3256.257,"end":3277.579,"text":"好那個謝謝委員就是說其實除了具體承諾跟能源有關的這大概這兩點是最重要的結論那除了這個以外其實一些具體的做法包括提供要讓供應鏈更有韌性等等很多還有包括協助開發中國家這些相關的工作其實我們都有把它整理起來"},{"start":3278.32,"end":3297.117,"text":"我簡單講兩個事情第一個有關於再生能源的部分其實除了第一個就是我們把現在成熟的再生能源能夠加速也讓它加量除了這個以外我們要更多元化的來發展再生能源這個是台灣現在政策正在推動的工作"},{"start":3297.797,"end":3313.482,"text":"我們也希望能夠把再生能源的裝置能夠盡快的再提升除此之外有關於委員提到能效的部分能效的部分大概簡單來講就是希望全球的年均能源效率改善目標能夠從2%"},{"start":3315.143,"end":3344.359,"text":"提升到4%是好那他的計算方法是用初級能源的供給去出GDP因為時間有限好那我簡單講委員從2016年到2022年臺灣的初級能源的能源密集度總共憑年均改善了4.2%是其實是他提了4.4%過去這幾年我們其實改善的量是比他要求的4%再多一點"},{"start":3344.619,"end":3372.454,"text":"好次長那我就更具體問下面一個問題那很多媒體都關注在這一次COP28的結論之後像這個最重要的再生能源三倍能效兩倍我們能不能夠針對這個結論來再做臺灣國內政策的加碼的承諾也就是順應這個國際上面再生能源三倍跟能效兩倍作為我們2030年再生能源跟能效的目標這部分我們有沒有辦法順應這個再做加碼的承諾"},{"start":3373.574,"end":3394.506,"text":"跟委員報告如果它基礎年是用2022年來做我們到2030年平均來講說我們的光電目前規劃的量是有會能夠達到三倍風電的量也應該會有2022年的時候的裝置容量的三倍所以這個都可以這個在裝置容量的增加上"},{"start":3395.206,"end":3415.121,"text":"是可以達成目標的所以再生能源三倍是可以承諾的是會達成目標的依照我們現在的規劃那除了這個以外第二個部分有關能源效率就是初級能源供給的密集度這一塊我們去年年均的改善是4.2%今年預估起來可能會有機會超過6%"},{"start":3417.723,"end":3443.879,"text":"就是供給量我們是使用量是下降了GDP是成長了所以我們改善的改善率是還不錯所以我們也希望2030年這個改善4%的目標能夠達成好所以我跟你們說現在我們台灣的政府也再次承諾了順應的目前這個COP28的這個共識的結論再生能源三倍跟能效兩倍相較於2022年這件事情我們是可以承諾的這沒問題吧對不對"},{"start":3445.24,"end":3463.571,"text":"對我跟委員報告我剛才的說明裡面是要講過去這幾年其實我們就順著這個軌跡在做你說我們就在這個軌跡上面對我們其實就是在這個方向上面所以這個承諾是我們可以承諾的事情我們希望能夠這個軌跡能夠繼續順利的往上走就是朝著這一個比例繼續改善好"},{"start":3464.298,"end":3491.537,"text":"那我覺得這部分很重要這當然也代表是國內的政策其實跟國際上面是很清楚的接軌的並沒有所謂違逆國際的趨勢跟方向這是第一點下面一個問題這次次長我要問其實在這次會議裡我們發現到有很多包括歐洲的國家因為歐洲戰爭的原因他們其實都花了很多力氣在提升能源效率的部分那當然台灣看起來因為我們能源價格變動沒有人家高所以我想問次長下面一個問題"},{"start":3493.482,"end":3503.209,"text":"我自己在想說現在經濟部有沒有對於各國尤其是這樣提升能源效率這些新的做法有密切的高度的掌握"},{"start":3504.825,"end":3530.767,"text":"這個部分委員的建議就是我們來做前瞻的那個技術的追蹤平台這個其實我們平常都在追啦但是沒有把它集合起來成為一個平台提供給大家參考我們來跟能源署我來要求能源署我們一起來做這個相關的事長這個問題其實是我想要接下來下一個問題但我現在想請學部長好下面部長我要問你你覺得我們達成2050淨零排放的目標有辦法只靠自己嗎"},{"start":3532.813,"end":3542.563,"text":"你覺得可以嗎只靠自己需要國內跨部會跟產業我說不是環境部我說台灣自己台灣自己可以只靠自己達成嗎"},{"start":3544.116,"end":3569.272,"text":"應該要跟大家合作啦需要跟大家合作對不對部長我這次其實去很明顯知道我們的淨零排放的這一件事情幾乎不可能只靠臺灣自己我們其實靠大量的國際合作下一張所以部長你覺得我們現在臺灣我們正在進行包括氣候跟淨零相關的國際合作足夠我們達成剛才說2050的排放這個淨零排放的這樣子的工作嗎我們現在的國際合作夠了嗎"},{"start":3570.356,"end":3579.665,"text":"我們還要繼續擴大國際的合作需要擴大嗎?部長說了,再往下我想到後面因為我時間上面有一些有限到最後一張"},{"start":3581.504,"end":3604.198,"text":"前面一張部長我自己有個具體的建議我認為就台灣我們就氣候或者是淨零來說我們的國際合作應該更有戰略性我提一件事情其實我們有很多的友邦國家在太平洋他們是太平洋的島國其實都是每次在氣候談判裡面非常重要也非常受阻力的所謂小島國家的聯盟"},{"start":3604.918,"end":3628.88,"text":"可是我們對於這些我自己也觀察我們恐怕是可以跟他們建立一個更清楚的甚至更具戰略意義的這個合作的關係甚至我們也可以幫他們發聲他們每次在這個氣候談判裡面都是大家最注目的一個聲音那也是我們最好合作的對象但我說實話我覺得我們現在對他們國內狀況的了解跟掌握我自己這次去完以後我覺得還不夠高"},{"start":3629.821,"end":3637.64,"text":"所以我覺得我們需要跟這系統性的戰略合作這是我想提的第一點的建議第二點就是剛剛跟次長在講到的問題"},{"start":3639.264,"end":3664.605,"text":"我們沒有辦法靠自己的力量就完成淨零轉型我們需要很多來自國際的新的技術前瞻的技術現在到底發展到最前緣是哪幾個國家哪幾個企業哪幾個公司哪幾個社群裡面已經有最新的Demo我們需要知道這件事情所以我覺得我們應該在這個國際合作的概念之下有一個最新的這個前瞻技術的一個追蹤的平臺這部分可能是經濟部其實應該可以扮演很多的角色"},{"start":3665.185,"end":3685.819,"text":"可能不只是能效包括再生能源包括氫能所有只要跟新的技術有關我們都不排斥我們都必須密切追蹤甚至我都覺得對於一些新的核能技術我們也該追蹤這我都同意再來一個事情是我們的發展的機制包括這些一些規範性的機制尤其像我知道現在我們很多產業都在討論CBAM都在討論歐盟的碳邊境調整"},{"start":3689.361,"end":3701.372,"text":"可是這只是大家現在只關注這個階段阿那請問下個階段呢下個階段其實也在討論中阿可是我想就環境部來說你們對歐盟可能下一個階段的CBAN目前掌握度到什麼程度"},{"start":3702.536,"end":3725.869,"text":"事實上不只歐盟包括我們跟美國跟新加坡、日本等國家也都有在接觸另外我針對剛剛洪文特別講到的中間這個部分事實上理事長或許也可以講今年7月份外交部就已經跟四個太平洋友邦部長我這邊就直接對不起因為時間有限我自己覺得我們其實應該在部層或國發會的部分直接應該來帶領一個"},{"start":3730.852,"end":3744.003,"text":"國際合作的專案這國際合作專案應該包括了前瞻技術包括小島國家的合作也包括一些新的治理機制的未來前瞻的進一步的發展我覺得這些事情可能拼湊起來我們對於"},{"start":3746.025,"end":3760.75,"text":"台灣在做淨零跟氣候變遷的問題上面跟國際上面的連結我覺得我們需要一個這個事情最後我要提醒一點我們都知道我們在UN裡面的參與是相對比較困難的我們對聯合國參與比較困難我覺得我們也需要發展更多在UN以外的"},{"start":3761.41,"end":3787.605,"text":"國際合作的參與的平台這部分我覺得是環境部現在還相對比較欠缺的部分我這邊其實有列了一些其實是在聯合國以外的參與機制我希望可以請部長再帶回去我們來討論哪些部分其實我們應該積極的再去參與而不只是說因為我們不是議員的締約國所以我們在這裡面談判會相對受限的問題其實在其他地方我們可以很好的發揮以上這個建議部長可不可以把這些建議帶到行政院或帶到國發會裡面跟"},{"start":3789.566,"end":3815.362,"text":"跟這個公主委跟陳院長來討論這事情是我們應該做的事情部長可以嗎可以 給洪文報告昨天下午就已經跟陳院長報告過了事實上剛剛洪文講的這個部分都有cover在那裡部長我們希望你們討論有一個好的結果那看可不可以在一個月後給我們相關的這個相關的規劃的訊息可以嗎一個月後可以好 謝謝謝謝洪文"},{"start":3818.455,"end":3839.726,"text":"謝鴻文 下一位請蘇喬惠蘇委員好 謝謝主席 我們請薛部長有請部長"},{"start":3847.329,"end":3861.084,"text":"蘇委員好部長好部長跟幾位委員有實地到COP28的現場去看過確實帶回了很多第一手的資料所以剛剛洪委員講的我其實很想說洪委員講的我們都贊成我們直接簽聯署請部長直接照做"},{"start":3864.207,"end":3889.601,"text":"不過這個有一些細節的部分確實部長還可以請你再多做說明一點比如說剛剛說這個決議的部分洪委員剛剛提到了因為同樣的這樣的一個會議開下來在時間的不同當中也有各種不同的團體不同的國家集結成不同意見的發送但我們必須說COP28的結論應該只有一個吧"},{"start":3892.462,"end":3903.859,"text":"應該只有一個這樣問好了來部長這次的會議到底有沒有結論有沒有有事實上他們有有結論嘛這個結論在什麼時候發出昨天下午昨天嘛昨天下午最後一個"},{"start":3905.046,"end":3929.491,"text":"不用啦 部長 這個問題很簡單啦有沒有結論嘛 有嘛 有什麼時候發出的 這個結論昨天下午啊 昨天嘛所以昨天以前的都不叫大會結論 對吧不是 那個都是倡議而已都是倡議而已嘛所以大會結論是在昨天才發出的嘛而且就是我們現在列出來這個也是你剛剛報告的現在我的投影片這個這個才是昨天這一次本屆今年COP28的結論可以這樣說嘛好 那部長"},{"start":3932.912,"end":3957.267,"text":"部長我想請問一下請你用一點簡短的回答你剛剛在回答洪委員的時候我們有提到的是國內有人據說他直接在12月5號的時候就已經把這個某一次的倡議變成了28會議的結論然後大肆宣揚這中間其實在講的就是對核能的態度所以我們回到前夜好不好回到前夜"},{"start":3958.898,"end":3978.795,"text":"我想請你在這個備詢台上你再次的說明在COP28裡面對於核能的態度到底是什麼他的比重談論到的狀況是如何請你簡單說明一下是的我在事實上在看到國內這個報導之後我馬上接受媒體的聯訪"},{"start":3980.797,"end":4001.597,"text":"我表達得非常清楚現階段核能對台灣而言是假議題部長我想先請問你的是COP28它的結論當中提到核能有多少那並且它把核能列為一個什麼樣的狀況它是倡議裡面是希望2050年那是倡議我現在問的是結論啊結論沒有啊"},{"start":4005.801,"end":4022.542,"text":"結論有啦結論還是有啦在結論當中他是在加快零排放和低排放技術發展的這一項當中在這一項當中把核能確實有放進去我們就事論事嘛他把核能有放進去在這個"},{"start":4024.063,"end":4043.456,"text":"加快零排放及低排放技術的發展當中有列進去但這表示他就是把核能列為綠電嗎其實也不盡然嘛也不盡然但他確實表示這是一個可能降低碳排的技術之一對不對所以我們必須說其實在整個COP28的這個結論當中大會結論當中有提到核能沒有錯但"},{"start":4047.939,"end":4065.171,"text":"它是把它列為應該要繼續發展的新技術之一但不是前面所說的在22個國家裡面提出的倡議當中說哎呀我們全世界就是應該要用三倍數的方向來發展核能完全沒有這件事情嘛對不對"},{"start":4065.871,"end":4080.966,"text":"完全沒有這件事情嘛結論跟倡議是不一樣的狀況之下在結論我們甚至是也沒有倡議的這樣的內容這個應該是可以部長在這裡以一個參與過的以一個部長的身份在這裡向全國公開再次聲明吧"},{"start":4081.667,"end":4097.265,"text":"是沒有所謂在2050年要把核能三倍的這個結論完全沒有但是核能對某些國家它可以變成再生能源甚至它"},{"start":4098.005,"end":4100.107,"text":"對台灣來講核能的發展是一個假議題你可不可以在這裡再一次表示核能的發展是假議題這句話是什麼意思"},{"start":4124.605,"end":4152.406,"text":"其實你也有前提啊是你也有前提啊你的報紙我都還幫你選必須在三個前提之下獲得確保之後台灣去發展核電我相信那時候大家是可以接受的那我們並不是說沒有把它列入我們的未來發展方向就不會去就忽略掉核能事實上我們很多協助研究單位持續針對核能的研發所以是哪三個條件"},{"start":4153.046,"end":4169.275,"text":"所以是哪三個條件部長第一個確保核能的安全第二個核廢料獲得妥善的處理第三個有全民共識我想這三個應該那在這三個當中其實最難的其實就是你這次說的嘛就核廢未解決所以談核電是假議題嘛"},{"start":4169.935,"end":4176.121,"text":"為什麼會這樣講的原因是因為現在在發展核電的國家當中我們必須說其實他們都是屬於有能力或者有現況可以處理核廢料的部分的國家嘛那在這些國家當中其實很大一個條件大部分的就是地廣人稀他有一個空間可以去處理核廢那偏偏台灣的狀況就是地狹人稠恰恰相反"},{"start":4194.958,"end":4215.665,"text":"所以以從過去到現在來講甚至不管是哪一個政黨執政沒有一個中央政府現在還沒有辦法處理最終處置場的問題啊所以在沒有辦法處理核廢之前其實你核電技術再怎麼發展除非你有辦法發展到我們做核電都完全沒有核廢料"},{"start":4216.385,"end":4237.708,"text":"或讓這個核廢料是所有人都認為它是安全的科學檢測它也是安全的我現在說的是核廢料還不是核能發電而已喔在這樣的狀況下才有空間台灣才有可能進行到共識的這個部分嘛 對不對所以部長我們今天在這裡要把幾個層次分清楚一個是世界對於核電的態度是什麼"},{"start":4238.228,"end":4259.625,"text":"另外一個是臺灣到底有沒有條件來使用核電而臺灣使用核電的前提是我們到底有沒有辦法處理核廢料所以這幾個層次其實部長你應該像念經一樣不停的不停的對全國來做一個宣達也就是全國人民要認知到的是我們在討論使用核電之前的前提是到底我們臺灣有沒有能耐"},{"start":4261.827,"end":4273.752,"text":"有沒有縣市願意接受處理核廢料成為在你身邊的最終處置場就是這樣子而已其他的技術都是另外的問題所以在這樣的狀況下部長我再次的說其實資訊的傳達真的是非常重要所以"},{"start":4280.154,"end":4296.219,"text":"這題如此那另外一個題目我覺得可能會變成新的狀況是你剛剛在在的說氣候損失與損害基金是這一次COP28的結論重要結論之一那臺灣也表示我們願意參與甚至是先行參與這個基金的這個建制"},{"start":4297.259,"end":4321.56,"text":"以致於我們未來可以參與更多的組織面向那我想請你簡短的回答請問我們是要用什麼樣的名義捐助捐助多少何時捐預算來源想要達到什麼樣的效果這個部分你始終還沒有做過解釋請你現在解釋我先講一個案例就是剛剛我跟洪委員有提到我們今年7月份外交部吳部長跟我們太平洋"},{"start":4322.28,"end":4330.467,"text":"四個友邦國家包括帛琉、諾魯還有馬薩爾以及另外一個國家"},{"start":4331.058,"end":4357.882,"text":"成立一個Just Transition Fund那我們台灣已經提供10 million就是一千萬美元去做那個基金所以同樣我對媒體也講過假如我們能夠實際參與COP的第一國的大會那台灣願意履行會員的一個責任我們來捐那當然這個經費要捐多少就必須要我們"},{"start":4358.942,"end":4382.696,"text":"行政院或者甚至是更高的成績因為我想大家都會更想要知道說我們這個的預算是從哪一個部門哪一個項目來出來那另外這個預算能夠達到的效果是什麼比如說你剛剛說我們已經跟這四個國家有過這樣子的一個基金變成一個團體那麼請問一下這一次在大會當中他們對我們的態度如何"},{"start":4382.836,"end":4410.162,"text":"非常正面他們在聯合國大會氣候大會裡面事實上為我們發聲覺得不應該遺漏任何一個國家或地區那我們為什麼當時選擇這四個國家因為太平洋島國這個事實上是比較嚴重我這一次跟很多包括加勒比海我們的友邦他們都紛紛跟我表達說希望他們能夠加入這個基金所以事實上反應很正面我昨天跟院長跟是嗎"},{"start":4410.982,"end":4431.238,"text":"所以這是一個正向的發展因為我們選擇這幾個國家是他們跟我們一樣都屬於海島型國家大家都是會面對氣候變遷首當其衝的國家而在這一些條件的國家當中台灣是屬於比較有能力的國家所以我們率先出來這等於是台灣can help的再一次的證明嘛"},{"start":4431.678,"end":4437.54,"text":"那在這樣的狀況之下我們果然因此收獲了善意的循環所以他們願意幫我們在大會發聲那我們當然期待這個可以繼續下去我想部長因為他確實是動用了國家的預算所以其他的委員一定會繼續的追問你成效如何我期待的是你能夠像剛剛使用何能的這一題你念經也好啦你就是一樣的東西一直講一定要說到大家都能夠懂"},{"start":4460.527,"end":4473.462,"text":"大家都能夠耳熟能詳大家就知道國家政策的方向是如此這般那你才有可能得到追隨者嘛所以在這裡的話我是希望部長能夠把這個部分再講更清楚一點好繼續傳達謝謝部長好謝謝蘇委員好謝謝謝謝蘇委員有請吳益勤委員"},{"start":4487.637,"end":4500.161,"text":"謝謝主席我要先請經濟部的曾次長還有我們環境部學務部長以及農業部的王玉珍王副司長謝謝"},{"start":4504.377,"end":4518.667,"text":"首先先有請行政單位曾次長我先請教你因為有關經濟部的議題這是COP這個第28次的第一大會裡面針對有關轉型脫離化石燃料的一個"},{"start":4519.547,"end":4543.074,"text":"共識裡面有幾項要來跟經濟部討論一下因為接下來這樣的一個目標那檢視我們國內的情形到底達標或是這個難度有沒有很高剛剛其實洪森漢我也有稍微提到比如說我們這個COP28的結論裡面再生能源要成長三倍增至三倍那如果照我們現在的情形來講臺灣的這個再生能源現在是大概佔了整個總"},{"start":4547.555,"end":4551.08,"text":"總發電量的8.26那如果在2030年2022年的時候那接下來我們如果要到2030年要到成長三倍我是大概估算了它的總電量的增加2%"},{"start":4563.857,"end":4583.868,"text":"然後這個再生能源大概要達到24.8%左右如果這樣估算應該是合理那如果其實我們從我們2050年淨零排放的規劃裡面其實再生能源要達到60到70看起來應該我們2030年這個因為我們中間沒有一個中間的目標值"},{"start":4584.969,"end":4590.311,"text":"從經濟部在估算的過程中應該是循序漸進的成長嗎我們2030年要達到24.8這個目標可行嗎跟委員報告就是兩個部分第一個部分是您這一頁簡報裡面提到2030年24.8那個國發會的規劃是要農業部門做到27到30所以要求還更高第二個部分跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":4614.26,"end":4622.848,"text":"這次COP28它在計算的時候是算那個裝置容量我們的裝置容量到2030是依照我們的規劃是絕對會超過三倍的那個是我們現在規劃起來的量以2022年大概14個Giga來做基礎的話我們到2030年會超過40個Giga是目標值"},{"start":4637.621,"end":4658.912,"text":"是目標我們會超過40個Giga所以以這個要求來講再生能源裝置能量成長三倍或是委員提的這一頁簡報就是發電量要比2020年成長三倍都是我們的目標我們也覺得達成的機會非常非常的高那就能源的配置上面這個再生能源是我們現在風力發電路上風電海上風電地面光電屋頂光電還有沒有地熱"},{"start":4665.896,"end":4686.335,"text":"第一個就是我們家大概有三個重要的目標第一個就是加速然後這是既有的一些技術另外一個是就是要讓它更多元化除了風跟光以外地熱是我們接下來第三個最重要的再生能源當然也會配合水利"},{"start":4687.511,"end":4694.295,"text":"好還有水利的部分好謝謝那接下來也要請教您一下就是這個煤電的減排的部分還是我們經濟部的議題那在這個因為我們在這次的COP28裡面也談到說應該要去發展這個所謂碳補桌副排放的"},{"start":4707.242,"end":4707.262,"text":"致獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":4731.524,"end":4755.564,"text":"碳補儲的技術把它抓下來那我要問的是這個量應該很大吧?那未來怎麼儲存?董委員報告就是說這一次跟化石燃料有關的從Face-out一路改變成純芯而為其實化石燃料也有不同的類型燃煤、燃油、天然氣三個的排碳量排碳密度是不一樣的"},{"start":4756.525,"end":4773.984,"text":"那其實這次天然氣的角色也有被特別突出當然它必須配合CCS它必須配合CCS就是碳捕捉封存或是碳捕捉再利用那碳捕捉封存再利用這裡面算到了這個四千萬噸這是您的報告裡面提到的對這是國發會當時在算整個路徑的時候估算的"},{"start":4778.188,"end":4799.995,"text":"那這個CCS的部分現在正在發展中我想說有幾個事情包含我們跟國科會合作的相關項目現在包含國內的地質學者因為台灣的西岸其實事實上是有一些適合的地層能夠來做那個碳的封存但是捕捉的技術"},{"start":4801.255,"end":4821.152,"text":"現在要跟全世界一起合作因為碳的捕捉跟託付然後在封存的中間怎麼樣子能夠提升它的效率捕捉效率也就是說2050年我們碳捕捉的技術可能還會不斷去精進其實這幾年大家包括很多國際上很多大公司都在做這一塊"},{"start":4821.812,"end":4839.527,"text":"我再問的是說這些固化的二氧化碳你捕捉下來的會變成碳酸鈣嗎那這些的儲存你剛剛也提到說西部有地方可以放因為我在估算這個量的時候其實它大概會每四年就可以在大安森林公園這個面積上堆了一座101"},{"start":4841.008,"end":4870.508,"text":"所以這個量蠻大的所以去化啦或是你們有在思考這個問題嗎跟委員報告因為它那個地質上面的尺度因為如果可以的話我們其實應該找這一個專門學門的學者來啦我只是聽他們的說明以後轉述一下我怕有點不精準但它那個整個規它現在估算出來的一個量是遠高於因為這個是0.4億噸一年他們算出來的更高"},{"start":4872.809,"end":4896.038,"text":"對,是比這個還要高的而且它是打到海水底下的淹水層它有一些他們的做法我覺得那個很多技術細節如果在這裡講是,了解到2050年其實很多的技術還有很多課題要面對我想我們政府都聽剛剛政策長這樣講是有在思考的不是完全沒有去想這些事好,謝謝"},{"start":4897.798,"end":4921.208,"text":"再討論這些事情因為這個技術還是有很多要來討論的好 謝謝那我接下來要問有關這一次在COP28裡面也提到甲烷要清零這個是要問農業部跟環境部的部分那我們知道甲烷的一個排放我們2023年的國家排放清澈有記載的有所在就是那個2021年我們甲烷的排放大概是445"},{"start":4924.231,"end":4926.434,"text":"二氧化碳的當量這樣的一個情形其實農業的部分大概佔了188萬噸廢棄物大概佔了180萬噸接下來我們要如果到2030年要所謂的"},{"start":4942.477,"end":4964.764,"text":"這個甲碗淨零請問那個畜牧業因為最主要那個甲碗當然是畜牧業還有我們的廢棄物這個農業部跟環境部有什麼想法給吳委員報告有關廢棄物的部分我們已經在推動就是驗養、發酵然後產生早期的這個部分已經有一些試換的場域所以2030年要清零有沒有問題因為他的目標也是2030年要清零這個甲碗"},{"start":4972.635,"end":4994.654,"text":"跟委員報告最主要我們那個會區主要來自掩埋場掩埋有幾乎造成還有污水場對還有污水場的污泥這個部分那在掩埋場的部分目前我們的這個掩埋場有48座是封閉之後設置太陽能這大概是綜合的部分"},{"start":4995.205,"end":5014.558,"text":"那早期發電在短期之內如果能夠負極的我們會發電如果比較沒有辦法負極的我們是破壞做早期收集的這部分所以目前以高峰相比的話整個掩埋場的甲烷排放量已經降到10%左右了就是降到以前的"},{"start":5014.938,"end":5015.238,"text":"農業部主席"},{"start":5033.913,"end":5052.364,"text":"簡單跟委員報告我們在畜牧產業的部分除了就是說我們積極推動有情緒分尿的資源化處理所有的家庭家序那包括就是說你們也是豔陽發酵嗎對 株枝的部分的話是而且我們已經超過250萬頭以上有在做早期的一個再利用"},{"start":5053.3,"end":5062.991,"text":"是,所以也是朝這個目標應該解決啦好,謝謝那最後我要問那個環境部了來環境部給你一點時間回應這個氣候變遷績效的CCPI對我們台灣的評價說我們告訴第七"},{"start":5071.805,"end":5097.361,"text":"或是我們威視氣體排放倒數第四再生能源比例好像也太低能源耗用跟節能也表現極差我們有那麼差嗎?實際上這個CCPI它的方法學是完全錯誤跟整個COP28、DA大家要追求的方向完全相反"},{"start":5098.441,"end":5121.761,"text":"舉個例子菲律賓跟印度既然排名第六名跟第七名他們在過去這一年碳排量都增加了60、70%而且還在增加燃煤化電廠所以這個完全是違背我們一般的認知更何況我們人均台灣只能每個人一年排2.7萬噸在2030年"},{"start":5124.583,"end":5140.815,"text":"結果菲律賓、印度它可以排到七頓到八頓同樣是人為什麼他們會那麼高所以我們就是說這個CCPI根本是不值得去討論不用花時間去討論我們國內也有寫著發表文章來反駁這個CCPI"},{"start":5145.678,"end":5172.677,"text":"雖然部長這樣講可是當國際的一個應該是NGO來對我們這樣的評價其實對我們來講還是國際形象還是有傷的聯合國另外有一個歐盟的氣候研究中心它的評比裡面在210個國家我們是排45名那個才是根據減碳量的表現所以我們45名在210個裡面我們是前段班的"},{"start":5173.297,"end":5198.115,"text":"好那這個CCPI他才選67個國家去年63個國家進了67個國家那在我們後面還包括韓國、加拿大阿美國跟日本也都大概跟我們都一樣都五六十名所以我個人覺得就是說我們國內我們應該對自己的國家有信心對我們的排碳的努力雖然我們還沒有達到完美的境界但是我們一直朝這個方向努力應該給大家"},{"start":5199.917,"end":5213.033,"text":"我們在政策方面CGPI也對我們的國家的政策肯定我們在政策的部分排名24那它是排碳量這一部分把我們排到很後面因為它的方法根本就錯誤了"},{"start":5214.794,"end":5215.214,"text":"謝謝有請林維周林委員"},{"start":5253.65,"end":5270.183,"text":"謝謝昭緯我們請薛部長有請薛部長林委好薛部長這一次你有去參加這個COP是會議嗎是有嗎有你是做什麼艙"},{"start":5272.764,"end":5297.099,"text":"經濟艙還是商務艙商務艙OK你只要規定嘛部長級的按照可以做商務艙是對不對啊有沒有被升等升成頭等艙有沒有應該有吧你有你有升等成頭等艙沒有因為這個都是幕僚安排所以你是做頭等艙去的誰幫你升等的你知道嗎"},{"start":5299.703,"end":5308.947,"text":"整個形成這些說明一下請你們的幕僚幫忙說明誰幫部長升等頭等艙的跟委員報告這個是按照那個行政院的規定行政院規定只能做商務艙喔部會首長是如果有提供這個頭等艙的話是可以的"},{"start":5326.207,"end":5350.665,"text":"你們是買頭等艙還是買商務艙我們是買頭等艙買的時候就買頭等艙這是符合規定嗎你要確定還是被升等的原來就是買頭等艙按照規定來的不過這個以後我們還是可以檢討有必要一定要做頭等艙嗎"},{"start":5352.895,"end":5362.643,"text":"商務艙我從來沒有做過頭等艙我不知道頭等艙會是什麼什麼樣的滋味商務艙已經很好了我做過商務艙所以這個將來預算上我們再來檢討好來我們談其他你請部長留著"},{"start":5374.75,"end":5382.355,"text":"這個 我們先看一下你們的這個網站不是啦 FB的這個粉專最近你們貼了好幾篇 這一個禮拜貼好幾篇跟本頁無關的這個內容幫行政院在大內宣長照2.0溫暖照顧"},{"start":5401.718,"end":5404.24,"text":"環境部你不是衛福部啊打造溫暖而堅韌的台灣講疫情"},{"start":5414.721,"end":5436.499,"text":"特別條例照顧台灣這跟你有什麼關係?跟環境部有什麼關係?給林委員報告行政院的部位是一體的啦大內宣這個跟大內宣沒有關係啦給林委員報告行政院底下的各部位是一體的那這個部分已經有難怪那個按戰術30、40"},{"start":5439.903,"end":5440.583,"text":"這幾天大家都在討論這個COP會議"},{"start":5453.584,"end":5468.556,"text":"到底在談哪一些內容臺灣還有哪一些可以做得更好的對不對 要專注在本業貼這個也沒人看你們那個評價兩顆星啊你們那個FB的這個評價兩顆星加油啦注重本業啦這才是你的專業嘛"},{"start":5479.009,"end":5504.034,"text":"謝謝林委員 這個本頁當然也注重啦那個比例啊 你那一個禮拜貼三篇就貼的全部是大內宣跟貴部毫無關係的貼文這個行政院有行政院他的這個網站嘛或是他的FB粉絲專頁社團他去貼嘛 你們要注重本頁好 我們來問一下就是說你去參加了這個COP"},{"start":5505.748,"end":5530.265,"text":"二十八28這個會議當然大家在講說我們到底有沒有進步從27到現在27屆到28屆有沒有進步但是因為指標的關係有的NGO評論我們是退步那你們一直講說我們是進步進步的好吧這個就各有各的這個"},{"start":5532.358,"end":5541.004,"text":"指標它採樣的指標的不同不過還是因為這個是叫做德國看守"},{"start":5542.605,"end":5562.673,"text":"的一個NGO每年我知道一個NGO他CCPI每年都會評但是大家也都會參考所以還是注意一下看他用什麼樣的評你剛剛有做了一部分的解釋不過針對這幾項我們把它拿出來看就是針對"},{"start":5569.793,"end":5591.878,"text":"整體表現 這個我們就不講因為整體表現到底用哪一些指標加總起來的然後我們看它的內容臺灣在溫室氣體排放及能源使用中的成績非常差在再生能源和氣候政策方面則是比較差的差評非常差的是能源使用"},{"start":5600.409,"end":5619.899,"text":"這部分我覺得啊是有值得我們檢討的你知道我們現在的能源的發電的組合火力發電佔多少火力發電裡面大概有燃煤、燃氣大概各自相近40%左右嘛所以佔八成啊是"},{"start":5620.728,"end":5638.563,"text":"可是我們已經在再生能源已經從幾乎大概1、2%到現在已經10%了我想這個成長速率大概在國際上排名應該是前段班啦火力發電的降低比例啊做得不好"},{"start":5639.974,"end":5650.698,"text":"我們先從用天然氣來期待煤我們能源都是以進口為主所以各位應該也都知道天然氣不是代表乾淨的能源"},{"start":5654.858,"end":5675.86,"text":"他排...他會排什麼?他會排哪一些?氣體?二氧化碳...也是氣體會,但是他的排...他也是化石原料吧?是,沒錯,但是他的量...大家都要減少化石原料的使用嘛所以這一次的COP他為什麼不敢直接講說Face-up Fossil Fuel?"},{"start":5676.36,"end":5698.593,"text":"你看他也是自己最後必須因為有人反對阿阿拉伯國家反對阿為什麼會反對就是因為他不實際因為他生產石油阿為什麼反對難道你要幫他講話嗎因為我們沒有生產石油這是趨勢嘛這是趨勢嘛"},{"start":5706.516,"end":5714.82,"text":"阿你要幫他們講話說 因為這個沒有通過大家的共識不是幫他們講話啦 因為我們也沒有生產食用 對啊我們要有自己的 是 沒錯 達到2050我們要對自己有信心啦 能夠淨零碳排阿你的 欸 能源那一塊是最主要的啦好啦 我提供幾個 好"},{"start":5730.738,"end":5755.794,"text":"這個二十七的時候他們特別提到臺灣的中火、麥寮電、興達電還有中鋼、林口火力發電被點名是全球最髒的五百個碳排放源全球最髒的五百大"},{"start":5757.079,"end":5772.41,"text":"我們就佔了幾個中火、麥寮電、興達電、中鋼、林口電今年COP28我們台灣政府又被點名說減碳不僅沒有改善還更退步所以這個齁這個這個能源政策齁其實關係到我們整個"},{"start":5786.027,"end":5810.498,"text":"這個2050要達到淨零碳排最大的關鍵點就在能源政策了如果我們的火力發電不管是煤或是天然氣一直沒有辦法減少我們要達到那樣的目標叫做緣木求魚啦那個都是全球500大排碳排最多的500大在我們台灣你說我們做得多好"},{"start":5816.388,"end":5829.055,"text":"有必要 這個我們慢慢來討論有必要整體檢討我們的能源尤其是電因為電是源頭啦你產生電才能讓企業"},{"start":5833.964,"end":5854.381,"text":"運轉讓汽車你即使全部改把它改成電動汽車不直接排碳二氧化碳但是你用的電如果是火力發電這些在路上跑的汽車電車用的還是火力的東西火力的能源所以那個源頭我們要好好的來探討"},{"start":5855.492,"end":5883.805,"text":"好今天時間的關係以後我們再找時間探討等一下我們要去草野協商了好謝謝林委員好謝謝謝謝林委員有請邱太元邱委員好謝謝主席首先謝謝主席排這個有COP28齁"},{"start":5885.56,"end":5913.347,"text":"勾引出我們在這個會期雖然快要結束但是非常重要也是將來不管是政府各部門要努力的一個方向我想今天非常有意義來感謝各部門的努力是不是我看因為我講的比較跟健康但是因為跟環境部還是有關係我再請薛部長好了那衛福部是周市長來來請"},{"start":5915.259,"end":5934.76,"text":"我們一起來分享一下好不好好,有請行政單位,謝謝好,我們看下一張,因為時間的關係好,我們看這一張來講,我會比較Focus在健康Health Risk這個部分Climate Change跟Risk這個部分"},{"start":5936.151,"end":5958.965,"text":"當然我們在2003年世界醫事會世界醫事會擁有1100個醫師世界上它的發動力量是很夠的分佈在都會當然也很多在偏鄉地區在服務其實在2003年的一個宣言尤其是針對一個基層醫療Permanent Health Care當然講它的針對"},{"start":5960.609,"end":5980.055,"text":"當然不只climate change啦當然現在慢性病越來越多流行病的risk也一直承受人類在承受環境的衝擊那個氣候的變遷對健康的影響還有抗生素的一個resistance"},{"start":5983.372,"end":6010.924,"text":"抗藥性等等的都是在未來很重要的那他有特別強調當然基層醫療的action是非常重要的鎖住第一線來建立整個韌性的一個醫療防疫健康體系所以這樣的一個情況那加上COP右邊這邊是COP的主席我們都知道這個碳排空氣汙染"},{"start":6011.84,"end":6036.05,"text":"大概都是對健康非常的有影響我很敬佩我一個學生現在是大嶺慈濟醫院的副院長林明蘭多年來其實他已經奮鬥很久了也算是臺灣之光了像世界上相關的議程都會請他過去我最近也開始跟他密切的來瞭解他來做什麼"},{"start":6037.369,"end":6053.964,"text":"希望把它推展到醫療體系我想這個部分先跟兩位首長說明一下再看下一張好了因為我的問題可能在後面剛好也是我們每一年世界醫師會跟台灣醫師會都會在台灣辦理一個國際研討會"},{"start":6058.379,"end":6069.148,"text":"那不管是外交部或者是衛福部都很熱烈的來執行每一點都相關的都很重要的主題今年的主題是全球健康安全醫療照護體系"},{"start":6070.831,"end":6090.086,"text":"其實我們請的兩個重量級的世界總統都有接見這個女生是世界醫師會會長這男生是理事會主席是韓國韓國他們不約而同都把最近一年的我們在12月半所以都會把今年度大概世界醫師會在全世界各國"},{"start":6091.277,"end":6111.272,"text":"在演講的主題最重要的提到我們這裡因為兩個主題不約而同都在講climate change跟健康的關係而且講得非常精彩我們國內的演講者在這方面還是在防疫以後總要建立一個韌性的一個"},{"start":6112.412,"end":6133.161,"text":"所以他們還稍微好像前進一點點,我們要趕快接上這個進度所以今天的我覺得今天的會議很重要,我們今天會議應該要有一些未來希望呼籲政府或者是全民間各種NEO甚至EJ我們怎麼樣來做,我想這個部分環境部跟"},{"start":6134.318,"end":6157.259,"text":"拜託環境部跟衛福部能夠擔任起這個領導的責任不要到下一次COP29又要來討論一次中間就是按照我們原來的規劃、計畫一直在進行這樣可能我整個review起來可能跟不上時代那我們看下一張氣候當然變遷會造成這個我想我們用眼睛看比較快"},{"start":6159.05,"end":6181.971,"text":"造成區域的差跡與大疾病的形態還有不要忘記心理健康跟社會心理這個部分一直在過去我們裡面沒有我們在檢討我也希望衛福部在以後注意到這個部分和他們change對mental、psychosocial方面的問題對老人家的衝擊我想這不言而喻多的是更有健康很多健康上的問題"},{"start":6186.192,"end":6211.18,"text":"那我這張是希望提出來我要請衛福部這是在我們這次的國際研討會裡面大概大致上我覺得我們一個醫師他是用醫師啦因為是世界醫師會嘛大概有幾個工作可以這樣做我請衛福部我能夠帶回去"},{"start":6212.591,"end":6240.775,"text":"去看看檢討這些將來可不可以未來怎麼樣我們來配合這樣一個趨勢我們未來可不可以做哪些事情已經在做哪些事情了或者在做哪些事情我想這個非常重要讓醫療體系趕快來接上而不是只有在醫療體系還在盤查還在現已盤查探盤查的階段看起來這樣對不來就失敗所以拜託我們好不好?次長可以嗎?好可以"},{"start":6241.595,"end":6264.385,"text":"我希望因為這個會期現在12月,你一國外可以拿一個報告給我們未完嗎?給我們展開為了這一屆的Ending跟下一屆像我們黃雀旺委員這樣繼續再去努力的方向啦好不好,這個大概最重要當然就是說,還有就是可能要有資源進來啦"},{"start":6267.217,"end":6290.482,"text":"今年談預算大概都沒有這個方面的預算但是明年是不是未來我們必須要做這些事情或是重要的我們就來編預算當然包括從前面的先導、專業人的教育、研究不要讓這些研究、關心climate change的這些同仁們"},{"start":6292.768,"end":6311.716,"text":"花了1、2十年的研究還是被很寂寞的在那邊做他們過去的努力也帶領到台灣治理至少不要落後現在我們要給他溫暖、給他支持然後利用他們過去的經驗、成果我們繼續來努力這也是我們吳釗緯應該他的心願當然最重要就是有一個更...所以這一個我拜託那個"},{"start":6321.19,"end":6340.76,"text":"衛福部當然我也希望我過去在這裡也是部會也都不是說你負責什麼都彼此有關係像我們過去衛福部、勞動部也有很多合作的我相信環境部如果在健康跟climate change裡面也有很多合作的平台也很高興我們學部長、學校長"},{"start":6343.499,"end":6371.301,"text":"我們跟國衛院有很多空氣跟健康的工作創起了我們中興大學的醫學系,這個非常的厲害所以我想他對這個部分能夠了解我也拜託衛福部,環境部可以帶回去看看這些問題,可以從你那邊走過來幫忙好我們看下一張有一些建議,我當然是也在這邊"},{"start":6374.465,"end":6397.48,"text":"因為要兩個部來幫忙所以其實我的問題是WMA有很多的建議那目前因為我主要focus在醫療、健康所以我想這整個環境的變化所影響的當然很多很多各部會都有那針對WMA的建議目前政府落實哪些未來要做哪些也在這一次的一個"},{"start":6399.055,"end":6423.334,"text":"大概一個月給我們一個看做多少算多少,未來有什麼構想?看下一張因為現在台灣的行動缺乏氣候變遷可能造成其他問題都沒有把健康問題納入在氣候變遷行動的核心所以我想這個部分希望未來衛福部跟環境部在規劃的時候能把"},{"start":6425.551,"end":6453.445,"text":"造成的驚豪,何況這次你看全部國家簽最多國家簽最多國家簽的先年就是climate change and health是沒錯那個部長帶回去跟部長出去訪查一定很累他這種魔鬼他非常有精神但是我想也會收復很多一定也帶很多那邊開會的會以後會對國家對台灣會有很大的貢獻"},{"start":6455.739,"end":6483.681,"text":"也感謝上上禮拜我們到澎湖也去考察了一些澎湖相關環境、垃圾的問題部長親自帶隊他以一個澎湖長大的小孩有如此的成就但是還是很瞭解到地方的需求給我們很多環境部未來要做的事情給我們收穫很多也感謝"},{"start":6486.005,"end":6512.877,"text":"不會裡面的同仁來參與我覺得那個對澎湖的發展也是非常重要在這邊特別感謝我剛剛提了這些就請那個次長一各位幫忙報告因為接下來我們將要未來我們國家怎麼做、醫界怎麼做我們是未來服役的先副長這邊也幫忙一下好謝謝邱委員特別謝謝吳釗緯"},{"start":6515.182,"end":6524.752,"text":"今天排的這樣子很有意義的一個大家討論好感謝大家謝謝好謝謝邱委員好謝謝下一位請黃秀芳黃委員謝謝主席我們請部長有請部長"},{"start":6543.045,"end":6558.341,"text":"黃委員部長好部長我今天先幾個議題跟民眾可能比較有切身關係就是我們在淨零轉型的政策當中那也一直鼓勵我們的民眾要去這個最切身的就是說可能有原本的這個"},{"start":6559.162,"end":6560.402,"text":"國際社會福利及衛生福利部長"},{"start":6587.709,"end":6598.792,"text":"環境部跟經濟部是不是有什麼樣的這個配套可以鼓勵民眾去購買這個電動機車那一方面這個也是我們的政策嘛對不對那像這樣子的話你們要怎麼樣讓這個電動機車的這個市售的這個比例能夠提升"},{"start":6608.201,"end":6636.652,"text":"剛剛黃委員的確提到過去三年事實上我們有推動太舊換新但是那時候的確沒有把它列為說換新是應該換電動車那民眾都還是去選擇燃油的因為它價格比較便宜不過我們現在已經在第二期在推動已經有改變做法我們除了鼓勵民眾太舊換新之外"},{"start":6637.072,"end":6662.112,"text":"事實上這個心是電動機車為主那同時增加一個增量抵換換句話說我想這個事業開發單位假如他們包括有一些鹽區要增設它有一些污染排放鹽它可以給民眾誘因去轉換為電動車那就可以有那個"},{"start":6662.913,"end":6684.195,"text":"其實有幾項原因第一個可能比較貴這個也是原因之一再來就是說電池的交換站其實不是那麼便利這個也是原因之一所以我不知道說像可能在市區還比較方便如果說比較鄉下的話它根本都沒有電池的交換站"},{"start":6685.436,"end":6700.922,"text":"那像這樣子的話 你們要怎麼去鼓勵 譬如說一些可能在公務單位的外面 譬如說在公所外面啊可以有這樣的一個電池的交換站 那也許對民眾會不會覺得說我這個也比較便利 那我也願意來換這個電動機車"},{"start":6704.984,"end":6722.456,"text":"時給環環報告我們在前瞻第四期的計畫馬上要推動的就是鼓勵各縣市包括鄉鎮去增設充電樁了有將近5點多億的一個預算所以未來再推動這一塊我相信效果就會更明顯了"},{"start":6723.277,"end":6751.449,"text":"對那的確這個infrastructure由基礎建設充電不變事實上民眾換成電動車的意願就不高那前瞻第四級環境部這一部分的這個工作就是來充實這個基礎的設施那現在已經有八個縣市提出來補助了啦那有會增加將近有400多處的公有廠藝的改善電力那經濟部這一部分就是其他"},{"start":6752.209,"end":6775.138,"text":"場域以及積極的補助所以我們跟經濟部是有一個搭配的做法好那今天經濟部也在這邊嘛我想請教一下就是說你們在鼓勵除了電動機車之外那電動巴士那電動巴士其實有很多我們是希望鼓勵是台產的電動巴士而不是從國外可能是從中國這邊中國製的然後進來台灣再組合"},{"start":6778.619,"end":6778.759,"text":"市長,市長,市長,"},{"start":6806.791,"end":6829.611,"text":"處理環境部這部分就是這個充電樁在公有地的地方偵測充電樁以及鼓勵各縣市開設更多利用電動公車來做營運營運增加多少人我們就會給他補助是鼓勵營運而不是在補助設備這個是我們精進的做法"},{"start":6830.311,"end":6846.79,"text":"其實我覺得現在在各縣市的這個電動巴士其實可以減少這個污染源我們也可以感受得到因為以往這個巴士如果在啟動的時候一定會有一股這個油煙這個油味所以我覺得說漸漸的這種味道是減少了所以我覺得這個是政府"},{"start":6851.415,"end":6876.616,"text":"的一個這個方向那我也希望就是說未來不論是電動機車也好或者是電動巴士應該是要去推動那如果說像現在電動機車不是那麼普及的話那是不是剛剛這個部長講的可能就是電池的這個交換站或充電樁那是鼓勵要去廣設應該是也要廣設才會有辦法去普及"},{"start":6877.698,"end":6878.48,"text":"故體再生難料"},{"start":6885.98,"end":6908.116,"text":"在前陣子我們看到就是說你們有關於這個就是在108年起你們有推動這個可燃的這個廢棄物轉製成固體再生燃料這個SRF那我覺得最近也有聽到就是說有的業者是假SRF的這個名義然後去行"},{"start":6909.136,"end":6921.745,"text":"實質的分化爐也看到50%的廠商可能沒有未依核准的計畫書去操作那我想請教部長像類似這樣子的話是"},{"start":6924.961,"end":6951.918,"text":"你們是你們整個源頭就有問題還是說這些業者他只是用這個名義然後實際上是真的他就是在做混化樓嗎給黃委員報告的確這一塊我們非常謝謝包括很多委員的關心以及媒體的報導那我們也深切去檢討那的確發現以往在包括審查"},{"start":6953.659,"end":6981.533,"text":"SIF生產製造的這一塊以往都是書面審查而已那當然審查的這個工作不只是做環境部有些是歸地方政府因為地方政府他有開設產業發展園區那他們在那個園區裡面設置那那一塊事實上是縣市政府的權責不過中央跟地方本來就一體的所以現在環境部已經積極的包括把生產SIF的規範"},{"start":6982.834,"end":6992.324,"text":"以及使用SRF的規範多做一些修正正在進行當中所以以前只有書審而已對 只有書審那你現在應該要實際到現場去看它是不是有這樣的技術啊沒錯 未來我們會有三個步驟除了書審接下來市營運也要看那接下來在營運當中還要"},{"start":7003.735,"end":7030.983,"text":"隨時去監督我們希望把它更具體的落實也來監測看看到底這些廠商有沒有按照既定的計劃書規範來做我相信未來是可以做很大的改善同時跟委員報告以往我們是把SRF只有一個標準原因是我們是以品質管制的角度來看歐洲他們是以產品的"},{"start":7031.403,"end":7031.703,"text":"中文字幕 沛"},{"start":7062.975,"end":7064.837,"text":"M2事件之後本席也有針對前環保署的"},{"start":7089.297,"end":7096.431,"text":"督察總隊李隊長的部分有提出要求我們要調查"},{"start":7097.657,"end":7122.92,"text":"調查報告完成了嗎?不但完成,也經過考機會、開會通過行政程序我已經批了,我們大概在最近應該會對外去公佈前天請任秘書長說院長也看過了都看過了所以就是說,那我們環境部什麼時候要公佈呢?"},{"start":7124.885,"end":7125.165,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7145.9,"end":7171.014,"text":"速公佈是好謝謝好那再來本席也關心這個就是針對山坡地的開發不當的開發那這個是82年通過的環評那現在他有變更大規模的變更只有被查雖然是新竹縣政府在處理的不過當年82年定稿是環保署前環保署"},{"start":7172.116,"end":7200.31,"text":"的這個環評作業那定稿但是到現在定稿本都沒有上網那請問什麼時候可以上網呢本席已經追了很久了這一點我請我們環保局的劉市長好 崔委員跟崔委員報告一下因為新竹市它有給我們的公文說第一個它手上有一份那另外一份是因為地方政府依照三該辦法裡面也有提到環境評估報告但是那個是83年我們現在在確認那個版本是什麼因為"},{"start":7200.99,"end":7227.263,"text":"因為年代比較久遠那我們先請他去確認因為我們從內政部他因為內政部的那個書件系統上沒有查到那個環評報告書可是當年在環保署審的應該環保署有嘛對我們現在就是在確認那個報告因為他還有提到83年那個版本所以我們現在確認請新竹縣政府確認那如果有好幾個版本我們也希望都能夠上對趕快確認我們把它核對一下那可不可以盡速我們盡快我們跟內政部就要談這些文件把它核對因為畢竟是30年前的檔案"},{"start":7228.003,"end":7238.867,"text":"本席也去地檢署告發了所以也希望公文書能夠盡速出現不要失蹤那麼久再來針對"},{"start":7245.029,"end":7263.02,"text":"部長 就是說我們也在杜拜一起關心這個氣候變遷COP28那現在我們到杜拜也看到這個化石燃料的使用整個杜拜幾乎每天都是PM2.5都超過150"},{"start":7265.541,"end":7280.433,"text":"那部長現在就是說我們國內我也看到我們的空屋的抵換那這個本行因為已經關心非常非常久了十幾年了那也看到環保署要去用環保金額離島減換救車換新要來讓新的開發案可以抵換"},{"start":7287.398,"end":7302.274,"text":"那我要請問部長這個有經過公正單位的這個抵換的機制就是怎麼換還有呢 譬如說臺北的這個移動污染源臺北的金爐抵換可以用在高雄的這個開發可以嗎我們這個都有審慎的去評估過了嗎 部長"},{"start":7307.547,"end":7332.374,"text":"這一點我可不可以請我們大區區的蔡市長來回覆一下比較細節的部分謝謝委員跟委員報告剛剛委員提到了跨縣市的這個部分是不可以抵換的一定是在同一個空品區所以如果是剛剛委員提到可是市長如果同一個空品區也有問題啊"},{"start":7334.294,"end":7346.059,"text":"市長也非常清楚比如說工業區一直在增量然後在偏鄉減量然後你沒有做流行病學調查或者是健康風險評估的時候你會讓工業區附近的民眾的風險會更高這個是很可怕的"},{"start":7352.142,"end":7363.09,"text":"不是嗎跟委員報告其實空氣是流來流去的所以整個我們現在研究的情形是整個空氣流來流去可是那個整個氣流如果都"},{"start":7367.293,"end":7385.269,"text":"都停滯不流動的時候那個污染量是很可怕的啊那你不能說流來流去好像就同一個空品區就可以去抵換這是不對的不是嗎跟委員報告這個其實是研究出來的情形在一個空品區裡面去做抵換"},{"start":7386.15,"end":7410.957,"text":"那這個部分會得到最好的一個減量跟改善的效果我不能夠去相信這個部分請部長好不好部長我要請你了解這個部分是蠻嚴重那是不是可以給本席這個確認是不是有公正單位去確認這樣子的底換是不會影響國人健康的那你們要施行是不是可以暫緩呢"},{"start":7412.918,"end":7438.01,"text":"我覺得這個是有必要因為兼顧到空氣品質的控制以及地區產業的一個發展但是國人健康比產業發展還要不如產業發展嗎就是說空氣是流通就如我們台灣每到冬季的時候空汙就特別嚴重可是那個是境外的啊"},{"start":7438.59,"end":7463.941,"text":"又不是我們自己產生的部長你講這一句就是表示你是外行空氣空氣冬天空氣不好是境外你這個真的就是你外行化了這個部分絕對不是你講的這樣我在這裡也不攻擊你我是說這個部分你要去底換你要拿出科學的、公正的確認不會危害國人健康"},{"start":7464.537,"end":7464.697,"text":"徐志榮、徐偉仁"},{"start":7491.124,"end":7495.065,"text":"先做一個宣告 今日無臨時提案 謝謝謝謝主席 拜託請薛部長有請薛部長部長好好 許文豪部長跟召委一行這個COP28大家辛苦了啦不會不會 應當的"},{"start":7516.616,"end":7530.815,"text":"我們剛落幕的這個COP28其中今年的會議主題就是目標就是要盤點巴黎協定要求的那個盤點是工業革命前的那個基準全球平均升溫控制在"},{"start":7532.643,"end":7551.958,"text":"兩度C以內控制氣溫上升幅度在1.5度C為上限部長您覺得我們的減碳速度有達到雖然我們不是肺炎國有達到我們巴黎協定全球判定的要求了嗎目前看起來事實上臺灣表現應該是相當的好了特別是包括"},{"start":7552.938,"end":7571.061,"text":"這次大會通過的一個結議裡面再生能源在2030年規劃希望能夠有三倍能源效益我大概也有看到您的說明我們都優移其他國家的9%我們好像都有20幾%所以你說的那個三倍不是什麼問題一樣的三倍在這個報紙裡面"},{"start":7580.319,"end":7604.271,"text":"當然不是結論啦早上講的就是倡議倡議這個核能新方向美陸等二十多國富裕全球核電產能在2050年提高三倍當然部長您也有回應了這個標題是說核廢料不解決核能就是假議題啦您講的三個那個"},{"start":7606.18,"end":7607.902,"text":"還有核能安全及全民共識"},{"start":7627.349,"end":7652.194,"text":"它這個三點理由它是寫安全性、核廢料處理以及核廢存放地點的共識所以我一直看這個第三點就是包含在第二點嘛您講的是比較正確啦還是要全民的共識我相信全民應該會有共識啦在那個前提之下"},{"start":7654.226,"end":7658.193,"text":"那不禁又讓我想到說我們現在政府的政策不是在講2025非核家園"},{"start":7662.735,"end":7690.263,"text":"給習委員報告齁2025即使我們沒有談到火候加減本身我們也就是沒有核能電廠了因為現在核二核三到2025本來也就是要Face out就是要服役了意思就是說到2025我們核能發電都歸零了大概歸零了因為現在你要再重新啟動也來不及了研議呢時間也過了研議的時間它有一定的程序所以已經也過了嘛"},{"start":7690.796,"end":7696.558,"text":"那重點來了,是不是要經濟部的長官回答?那到時候我們再電過嗎?本來我們的%數是天然氣50、火力30、力能20,早上聽了一下好像"},{"start":7715.208,"end":7741.58,"text":"才10%左右是不是哪一個再生能源沒有不會再生能源是今年就超過10%的對 那我們目標是要20%是不是我們到2026年2026年就可以達到20%就可以達到20%是的這樣可以完全期待那個核能發電廠核能現在統統停掉嗎核能去年8%今年大概剩5%"},{"start":7743.083,"end":7767,"text":"那它原來的狀況就是核一二三大概四百億度簡單的講2025年核能發電2025年的時候月底也不是說一月初啦簡單講是應該講年末啦2025年的年底核能發電通通要停掉然後我們台灣的電力不配不夠"},{"start":7768.086,"end":7787.133,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是說河山的二號機除役的時間是2025年的五月不是年底啦是五月就會除役我是說最慢啦好那它的狀況是現在的狀況就是整個供電的狀況我們的估計就是都是足夠的我們先來討論最主要是怎麼樣再加速減碳"},{"start":7789.232,"end":7802.962,"text":"所以結論是說2025我說年底啦你說5月啦5月核酸就停掉了以後我們不擔心會切電我們供電是穩定的是的沒有問題是國人"},{"start":7804.909,"end":7825.66,"text":"民生用電、工業用電都可以確保那應該是算很好的消息但是為什麼那些國家他又要倡議說要到2050年提高分農發電三倍呢當然就是因為分農發電是比較"},{"start":7829.625,"end":7842.967,"text":"部長的前提之下,安全、火廢料處理等等,是恆隆發電一方面便宜,二方面可能碳排少"},{"start":7845.042,"end":7869.282,"text":"跟委員報告第一個就是比較高的比例他們本身都有合工業就倡議倡議的國家本身他們有合工業這是第一件事第二個件事情就是這個事情的倡議其實是來自於就是要在資本市場取得資金的投注其實遇到了困難所以才會有這個倡議我想說這個是在那個會場上我們看到報導的現實狀況"},{"start":7870.723,"end":7888.877,"text":"那話再講回來雖然2025非核核電都停掉但是畢竟核能發電總比這個火力發電甚至於比天然氣發電更能夠減少碳排嘛"},{"start":7890.398,"end":7914.909,"text":"應該是這樣子講就是說每一個發電它的優劣狀況不一樣就是就全生命週期來講一方面便宜啦但我的意思是說在部長講的這個前提之下我們是不是還可能還有昏龍發電因為我們最終的目標還是要減少碳排嘛跟委員報告所以才會說"},{"start":7918.052,"end":7936.111,"text":"譬如我們現在都在講說保持開放的態度當然有關新恆隆技術發展什麼融如何我記得好像沈院長好像也這樣講也不是說2025以後就絕對台灣沒有恆隆發展好像他的態度也不是這樣的"},{"start":7937.679,"end":7963.457,"text":"給習委員報告實際上像美國現在就積極發展核融合因為現有的大部分在商場的大部分都是什麼時候成熟我們也還不知道還沒有成熟那我再跟委員報告一下美國原本在發展叫做小型模組反應器SMR事實上它在兩個禮拜以前也已經決定要把那個停掉因為成本要越高"},{"start":7964.338,"end":7991.457,"text":"而且發電的整個效力也跟他們預期的事實上是有落差最後我有點想要講的是說那個參與的國家都國土很寬廣是沒錯他們核廢料處理沒問題我知道好像以前有那個張憲毅的事件其實台電好像也有跟北韓有簽約過就核廢料的處理甚至於跟中國大陸也有太極市長你在搖頭是沒有這回事嗎"},{"start":7994.741,"end":8015.2,"text":"好像文獻上我是查到資料是有啦至少有touch我的意思是說那個美國老大你就是那時候就是因為他反對嘛反對這樣子所以就不了了之嘛那我的意思是說像台積電用電量這麼的大那你美國國土又這麼的大"},{"start":8016.297,"end":8032.616,"text":"就是算我們要繼續核能發電的話我們核廢料沒有辦法處理的話你美國老大你又要我們台積電的這個電子產品我們萬一電不夠的話你總要幫我們處理這個核廢料我大概的意思是這樣子"},{"start":8040.261,"end":8059.748,"text":"這一題是這樣子就是高階核廢料最終處置這個事情跨國處理到現在國際公約是不同意這件事這是第一個第二個是你剛才提到就是說跟其他國家就是核廢料的減容處理那個事情應該是在上上屆"},{"start":8063.129,"end":8084.747,"text":"市長這樣子啦 總歸宜記啦2025非核加嚴 電力可以不用擔心 這個我們聽起來大家就很安心了啦最後一次的委員會 我也不希望副總統霍簡年等一下站起來啦 我也很對不起他啦好 謝謝部長 謝謝市長 謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":8088.588,"end":8090.83,"text":"剛剛落幕的聯合國第28COP28"},{"start":8118.07,"end":8138.388,"text":"首度將健康納入討論議程根據世界衛生組織估計由於氣候變遷導致空汙、高溫以及疾病的傳播加劇每年有1.9億人的生命健康安全受到衝擊呼籲各國來加速加強醫療體系的"},{"start":8141.93,"end":8159.975,"text":"應對資源 資源就是說投入經費本次大會有124個國家簽署氣候與健康宣言政府還有開放銀行、慈善機構等等共同承諾投資投入10億美金來對抗氣候變遷帶來的健康危機"},{"start":8162.896,"end":8175.228,"text":"其中,全球基金提供3億美元,路克斐勒基金也打算投入1億美元,還有主辦國阿拉伯聯合大公國和數家慈善機構預計投入7.7億美元,用於因升溫惡化的熱帶疾病。"},{"start":8186.019,"end":8204.438,"text":"大公國內比較熱嘛所以他要投入這個升溫惡化帶來的熱帶疾病那我們回頭來檢視我們國內這幾年來台灣高溫report記錄隨之而來的熱傷害還有高溫疾病越來越多第一線醫師反映啊"},{"start":8205.659,"end":8232.507,"text":"氣候變遷導致疾病傳染途徑增加在原本是以前南部盛行的登革熱這個已逐漸到全臺地區而且出現了兩萬個這個病例有史以來最多的病例那臺灣民眾也深受空氣污染威脅我們必須強化公衛體系的資源所以首先請教環境部長"},{"start":8236.009,"end":8243.822,"text":"在這個明年開增碳費對不對那開增碳費使用在哪方面哪些面向上"},{"start":8245.089,"end":8268.403,"text":"氣候變遷因應法裏面有如列13項啦那我非常支持剛剛張偉英影片裏面有提到事實上利用碳費也來支持整個健康有嗎?我們的有嗎?國內的有支持健康公共衛生體系嗎?呃相關的一個 有沒有?對啊這些開端碳費之後有沒有?"},{"start":8269.94,"end":8288.114,"text":"議員會議員會議員"},{"start":8289.369,"end":8301.656,"text":"公委員報告目前是用於溫室氣體減量還有氣候變遷調適所以沒有公共衛生嘛醫療公共衛生這個碳費沒有放在那邊如果沒有就跟行政院爭取啊"},{"start":8303.772,"end":8328.261,"text":"這是沒有嘛對不對我們來爭取看看未來有沒有可能把它納入所以就是要爭取因為呢我覺得我們跟國際離得很遠並沒有把健康這個綠色健康醫療放進去所以呢碳費沒有放在醫療公共衛生上面所以請跟行政院爭取然後呢我再提醒本次大會呢"},{"start":8330.218,"end":8347.657,"text":"氣候與健康宣言這本次的大會那這個我提醒那另外一個我關心的面向就是醫療產業減碳的議題我們在去年3月公布的臺灣2050年淨零碳排路徑以及策略的總說明"},{"start":8349.339,"end":8374.196,"text":"剛剛部長講到其實裡面講到十二項關鍵戰略中絲毫未見綠色醫療所以八個組織部會中衛福部的角色是真空的十二個項目關鍵戰略沒有見到綠色醫療所以衛福部所以次長我今天今天只有我請衛福部出席對不對只有我邀請你上來所以我要問衛福部"},{"start":8374.776,"end":8395.664,"text":"那衛福部薛部長有提到說對於淨零碳排更直言說上一次我們問他的時候他說非超支債務的因素太多了你說綠色醫療你衛福部的角色說非超支債務的這個因素太多那站在醫療的綠色醫療關口上衛福部明年度只編列多少你知道嗎2000萬以內1965萬"},{"start":8398.425,"end":8426.425,"text":"所以這個六五萬的預算辦理什麼減碳教育所以在醫療還沒減碳轉型之前竟然好像代替了教育部在教育做減碳教育你是教育部在做減碳教育轉型所以請問次長在辦理減碳教育後你把一千九百六十五萬在辦減碳教育在教育之後"},{"start":8428.266,"end":8454.996,"text":"醫療產業在近鄰路上能夠得到什麼的協助呢?跟委員報告一下這裡面的教育其實應該是包含所謂的教育輔導教育什麼?教育以及輔導對啦!就是代替教育部的事情這教育嘛你並沒有爭取來做這個公共衛生的防治啊也不只是這樣綠色公共衛生也不只是這樣我們對於說醫院的時候他應該要怎麼做才對這裡面的檢探教育怎麼做對這對檢探的觀念"},{"start":8457.477,"end":8486.024,"text":"對他第一個觀念要改變那這樣子他第一個就是第一個他成本降低嘛那第二個的話那他本身的對這個裡面的檢探的確是環境是有貢獻的那第一個就是說這裡面的輔導要讓他知道那尤其是他醫院裡面他哪些地方是他可以著手的那這裡面是基本上是有做一些的盤點的事項那經由我們請人然後到醫院裡面進行這輔導的時候那這方面是可以做一些事情的那當然部長所提到的有很多的地方不見得"},{"start":8486.604,"end":8514.751,"text":"以下就能夠做得到的地方那當然是包含我們的上下游採購整個涉及到社會產業的這部分層面的部分那這部分的話需要我們另外在後面後續在 跨部會的對另外再需要其他不管還當然也包含跨部會那逐步的往這方面來推動所以我建議衛福部你知道在2030前子呢我們我們有多少預算嗎在在進行攤牌的預算9000億啊所以衛福部應該要去爭取啊做綠色醫療啊"},{"start":8516.231,"end":8533.999,"text":"對沒有錯那這部分的確是要讓不能不能像部長說的說這個不可非可操之的因素太多不能這樣講應該是我們要主動involve進去啊是循序漸進嘛我們能做的我們趕快先做我們不能做的那跨部會我們一起來看看是怎麼樣逐步的來推動"},{"start":8535.22,"end":8551.381,"text":"市長我提醒你為什麼因為醫療減碳方式太多了舉個例子我曾舉例子說噴一罐氣喘的噴劑呢這個碳排量大概等於汽車跑300公里做改成粉狀粉狀的話馬上降到4公里"},{"start":8552.462,"end":8575.823,"text":"馬上這個汽車跑四公里的這個排放量就夠所以呢這個醫療跟藥物的減量其實是非常是大有可為所以我們該花很多時間我們要來重視這個所以這個衛福部環保部呢都是在政策面向要給予醫療院所足夠的誘因誘因就是說告訴他們這樣做能夠帶來大家好"},{"start":8576.824,"end":8605.091,"text":"對不對 要自主管理說對不對一方面讓他知道那一方面如果這部分可以的話那盡量提供他有營往這方面來走那請問你將來這個醫院如何進行探排查探盤查我們會委託或委託相關的團體然後逐漸進去來協助他來做這方面的盤查那這個我知道你有提到這個近鄰探排的指引對不對但是沒有講到那個時間那個期程吧要多久內"},{"start":8606.111,"end":8634.086,"text":"我們先了解了之後再做排程因為這剛開始現在要再進行的時候先了解這樣排這個排程比較務實有沒有預計大概多久內有多少家醫院要達到探排查探盤查因為呢要不要從醫學中心開始啊等等我們先輔導10家然後看看他們裡面的情形數字大概是先從醫學中心開始嘛對不對對從比較大的這個醫院開始所以呢表示我們衛福部"},{"start":8635.126,"end":8656.028,"text":"有注意到齁那這個COP28在12月落幕嘛對不對12日落幕本次會議六大宣言中健康議題就佔了兩項氣候與健康宣言我講議題啦齁還有氣候健康資金象徵著健康在氣候變化討論中從過去的配角"},{"start":8656.889,"end":8675.437,"text":"要身為氣候行動的核心所以期許我們的政府可以從綠色醫療和極端氣候下的健康威脅兩個面向來著手建立對氣候變遷具有高度韌性的醫療衛生系統醫療韌性是什麼呢就因應對策"},{"start":8679.899,"end":8691.531,"text":"要建立高度的醫療韌性的對策來建立醫療衛生系統在為我們國內的今後創造更大的生活福祉這樣兩位部長、部長、次長對嗎?對!謝謝!請關心綠色醫療!謝謝!"},{"start":8711.693,"end":8735.829,"text":"下一位吳欣盈委員謝謝有請部長還有外交理事長 薛部長跟理事長部長還有次長好 吳昭偉好"},{"start":8739.474,"end":8760.106,"text":"謝謝兩位我剛剛其實剛聽到這個薛部長有報告就是說以專業務實跟有貢獻來報告這次COP的出國那可是我覺得我個人感覺是一個mixed picture然後我覺得是見仁見智啦比如說像這七年來台灣的這個碳用使用率增加那"},{"start":8762.467,"end":8781.316,"text":"自然天然氣增加以整個經濟成長或百分比不同角度看這個東西會有不同的解答不知道我的投影還沒出來我知道外交部這次有安排一些會議比如說"},{"start":8787.83,"end":8815.794,"text":"在就是說一些會議那像這裡頭的照片是跟外交部這邊立法院安排的那有一些是我自己私人的一些會議那像比如說在右上方這位跟Michael Sharon就是我FB有PO的這個綠色金融大使我本來是在藍區跟他見面可是因為臨時我們沒有辦法立法委員全部四位都沒辦法進去嘛所以我就是在外面的這個"},{"start":8816.474,"end":8836.334,"text":"公共空間跟他喝杯咖啡然後把我本來在藍區想跟他討論的事情在外面討論那他之前在聯合國從開發計畫的UNDP裡頭是擔任永續金融中心的高級顧問在2016年到2019年期間他也擔任G20的永續金融研究小組的主席"},{"start":8837.728,"end":8860.476,"text":"跟藍區對那同時就是說他也比如說在2016年的時候幫中國銀行在英國的證交所發他們第一個Green Bond他經驗非常的豐富那他有很多一些這個Private Public Partnership的一些經驗那然後接下來我有一個這個影片跟大家快速的來分享一下"},{"start":8869.189,"end":8895.025,"text":"一些建築物等等的大家可以看到就說像這COP的現場比較明顯的一些建築物等等的我們就被交代要非常低調要到大家回台北的時候才能PO比較辨識度高的COP地標在這邊反而用民間的企業或是基金會進來相對來講算榮譽"},{"start":8910.731,"end":8913.89,"text":"這是在阿布達比的部分可是其他那些都在COP"},{"start":8917.705,"end":8943.374,"text":"今天就看到了Fusion跟Fission的公司Fusion是台美合作的公司叫做Alpharine它是在Monterey, California跟在台北這邊合作的公司Fusion呢是唯一真的是Zero Waste的部分因為其實我現在講很多綠能的像Solar跟Wind的話它事實上還是有一些Treatment Problems這個部分但還是在研究當中能不能真的是"},{"start":8944.274,"end":8969.946,"text":"大幅的量產還需要一段時間各個現場的車子都是電動車不同的國家也有他們一些各國管那裡頭還有分藍區跟綠區藍區的話就是各國領袖跟智庫的人員可以參加一般在做一些key decision maker綠區的話呢就是很多的一些新創跟綠能相關的產業或是一些綠色金融很好的一些典範呢也在這邊跟大家可以分享"},{"start":8972.907,"end":8988.816,"text":"所以我想展示就是說其實在台灣的這個外交困境當中呢是非常艱難的然後想要解釋下一頁William麻煩你就是說其實事實上呢我其實有被邀請兩場在所謂的Parliamentary Pavilion就是週一"},{"start":8989.406,"end":9005.221,"text":"上午的時候跟週二下午的時候都有作為與談人可是因為就是沒有最後拿到藍區的這個證件呢我也沒有辦法進去就相當的可惜那之後呢其實星期四的時候因為我們去COP那COP是星期四剛好休會"},{"start":9006.002,"end":9026.113,"text":"所以我就自己跑跨了邊界去了阿布達比然後這時候也想跟兩位分享就是說其實我是被邀請也是去做與談人那這次有辦法進去因為我是用民間的名義進去的這是國際智庫米爾肯研究院然後中間這位是Mike Milken本人"},{"start":9028.794,"end":9041.54,"text":"第五屆中東及非洲國家開放會關心未來再生能源用金融帶動產業轉型Milken專注四個主軸教育、健康、新創企業、金融"},{"start":9049.455,"end":9068.793,"text":"同時我要提到其實這次過去阿布達比邊界的時候你也發現到阿布達比現在是有全世界最大的太陽能板的面積它是跟中國做合作的這也代表石油的國家它可以重新再做能源轉型"},{"start":9071.235,"end":9091.474,"text":"同時它現在空間大、太陽多、風也多它其實要整個做這個轉型是非常有利基點的那這也呼應就是說其實我覺得臺灣必須要勇敢面對就是說如果真的我們要變成一個能源堅韌的國家的話我們其實選擇是不多的因為我們是一個小島國"},{"start":9092.455,"end":9116.403,"text":"然後我們也沒有很多的天然的資源不像中東的話連這次我們私下跟一些歐洲的國家的議員交流的話像盧森堡他們覺得他們不支持核能可是他們是跟邊界的比利時買核能啊對不對那這些國家邊界他們雖然不支持核能不簽署這些合約不代表說他們沒有在用核能的電"},{"start":9116.943,"end":9133.442,"text":"可是臺灣就是一個鎖國我們要在這個情況之下怎麼樣去突破這個困境我覺得不考慮啟動核能的話是不務實的那再來就是想要分享就是說下一位麻煩William"},{"start":9134.492,"end":9148.872,"text":"就是說我們實際上面對外交的這個困境那這個是我從這個CSIS一個智庫它2020年的報告後面的這個截圖就是這列出所有現在臺灣撤出聯合國之後所有的"},{"start":9149.192,"end":9151.693,"text":"全體委員會及全體委員會及全體委員會及全體委員會及全體委員會及全體委員會及"},{"start":9175.2,"end":9202.442,"text":"國家人口250萬人是全世界的0.3人口的面積而已所以是台灣在這個情況之下我們要什麼樣的立場不只是用政府機關因為這個原因這次我們四個委員都沒有辦法進藍區的場部長進你也沒辦法進去嘛 對不對那我們要怎麼樣能發揮其他我看到這些NGO的一些membership為什麼我突然講到這個Asian Development Bank就是亞洲開發銀行呢就接下來想要分享就是說"},{"start":9203.243,"end":9220.164,"text":"我個人的看法是如果今天台灣必須要走到淨零碳排的話我們的金融產業必須要跟國際接軌然後呢我們的所有的官方的金融機構必須官民一把尺才能讓我們跟國際接軌同時能淨零碳排淨零轉型"},{"start":9220.584,"end":9246.175,"text":"我們的金融產業必須要走到國際化那你可以看就是說這次像COP有這個所謂的Loss and Damage Fund那這Loss and Damage Fund裡頭呢其實就是所謂的對我而言是一個叫做氣候二軌的這個氣候金融的二軌外交那譬如說這個像譬如說氣候金融投資主權基金等等的這都是可以互相彼此投資的不然您先領洗我知道對去看省預算好謝謝對那"},{"start":9249.634,"end":9269.691,"text":"比如說這次我有跟這個諾魯諾魯我們一個邦交國做交流諾魯他的國家還比帛琉更小我問他說你們現在的這個淨零的方向是如何你們現在能源用的怎麼樣他說他們是用Diesel就用柴油為主他說我們只要裝兩個區塊我們島上只要裝兩個區塊的太陽能板我馬上50%就可以go clean那我說那請問一下你的這個"},{"start":9277.522,"end":9292.351,"text":"你這個solar panel誰幫你裝他說中國幫他裝的然後同時他說最近要蓋個碼頭是中國幫他做的那我說欸納魯你不是我們台灣的邦交國嗎那你是邦交國為什麼這個案子是給這個中國做他說中國就是Asian Development Bank去做這個談判的"},{"start":9293.852,"end":9315.874,"text":"所以我的意思就是說其實透過這個ADB亞洲開發銀行這是我們台灣是Full Membership的我們在這一場這樣這部分打輸的話我覺得是相當的可惜的而且要提到說您看您外交部現在這個報告上面也有講就是說你們外交部的報告對於COP說有充分發揮外交的效益我會覺得是說以提供你們參考"},{"start":9316.735,"end":9336.866,"text":"像很多國家澳洲、西班牙、意大利跟加拿大他們的MOFA跟MOE是併在一起的他們的名字叫做Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade我真的非常的覺得是個非常重要的議題所以可以呼應說我們的外交跟經濟是不是可以一起並肩作戰而這樣子的話才不會讓我們的這個邦交國像納魯"},{"start":9338.507,"end":9342.71,"text":"此外,其中一屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及其中一屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及其中一屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及其中一屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及其中一屆"},{"start":9357.522,"end":9371.796,"text":"中國廠商為什麼會得標?事實上這邊也講到Kathy其實中國廠商他在全世界各地都用低價的方式去競標那他背後有大量的政府或其他的補貼所以很多的國家都在抱怨說這些投標機制可能要做修改"},{"start":9372.496,"end":9394.022,"text":"只是跟委員補充,ATB台灣當然會非常積極的運用我們是一個Full Membership的身份來充分的發揮我們也用很多機制來鼓勵我們的業者去參加ATB的標案那只是說在剛才您提到這個特定的標案上面,最終是中國的企業得標ATB是甲方,他來招標,然後得標的企業是中國,不是中國在協助農業"},{"start":9395.942,"end":9409.35,"text":"外交部跟行政單位是講說要作戰的時候尤其我們這麼多委員出現我們應該是走大門走正路的我知道我們台灣的外交處境是非常有困境的這次我們這樣子去"},{"start":9411.451,"end":9432.402,"text":"我覺得我很對不起納稅人我覺得我沒有發揮到我們該發揮到的效應如果真的要做立院的外交的話我們等立法院的院長請這些國際的人員來就好了舉例講好幾個我遇到這些跟我們後來吃飯、找飯的人他們的牌子都寫著Party Overflow我還在玩牌子上也寫著Party Overflow這是什麼意思"},{"start":9432.822,"end":9453.489,"text":"PARTY不是開PARTY的PARTY那PARTY是一個團體的意思PARTY OVERFLOW那些委員告訴我是說是不能發言的委員才跟我們來吃早飯在飯店外面跟我們吃早飯的報告委員這個情況在COP28以前一直存在我們會持續的跟立法院一起來努力這一次有一些特殊狀況我相信委員很清楚有FULL MEMBERSHIP剛剛那些組織我們應該積極的把相關的窗口不管是經濟部財政部或什麼的相關剛剛那些"},{"start":9460.692,"end":9483.665,"text":"全體組織的做上對口來發揮真正的功能然後一些比較我們不是正式的會員的就要走正的路像這次這些NPO全部都是簽認騰一個中國的那我們用這些政見精確化我們立法院在國會外交台協助一起推動我們當然希望所有人都可以走大門走正路"},{"start":9484.365,"end":9503.133,"text":"當時我在現場的時候,我們拿到我們之前你給我們的證件要進去的時候,當場就有聯合國人在我現場跟我講,我聽到了,就跟你們講說,you betrayed my trust, this is not how it's supposed to be, you shouldn't be here"},{"start":9503.633,"end":9523.148,"text":"委員其實在委員很清楚您出發前我們兩次有跟您溝通今年情況比較特殊一點那我相信您也知道特殊的地方是什麼地方沒有什麼特殊的地方你們要的方式就是說你們要的話就是要用正當的方式跟國際上做交流否則這樣你會讓所有想幫助我們都很難做的事情謝謝你"},{"start":9524.429,"end":9538.577,"text":"然後最後不好意思我要講的最後一頁就是不好意思主席就是那個關於這個這個是環境部的部分環境部的話就是說我想要想要追就是說因為不好意思我之前跟部長是追過就是這個10年的這個環境部的這個途徑藍圖"},{"start":9542.799,"end":9554.511,"text":"因為其實我之前多次也呼籲就是說碳費、碳稅、碳底換的交易、碳交放的平台這四種到底要陸續怎麼樣有些配套措施因為這不只是對產業還有這個臺灣這個金融接軌金融這個"},{"start":9559.095,"end":9579.435,"text":"碳排金融接軌的國際性是非常重要的因為很多產業業界都不了解就是說碳權到底是要不要買然後要買多少然後未來這東西可能成為金融商品然後有沒有一些其他碳定價的機制在那產業要轉型的話是需要很多年的時間不能一次馬上到位"},{"start":9579.795,"end":9594.161,"text":"那如果整個架構沒有提出來的話這樣子產業很難做一些中長期的規劃所以想了解說你們什麼時候可以做出一個10年的路徑圖上次我跟部長問過那看看市長今天有什麼樣的想法可以給我承諾嗎?什麼時候可以做出來?"},{"start":9597.501,"end":9615.472,"text":"跟委員報告我們之前這個有跟也是委員有提到說我們應該可以在一個三個月內在三個月內因為最主要還是要看政府這一段我們要做中長期的規劃我們先在目前是先以碳價就是這個收碳費為主"},{"start":9616.328,"end":9629.735,"text":"那這個三個月內我們做的規劃確實會依委員的指示所以你是說只有三個月能做探費沒有沒有我說三個月內我們會把十年的路徑圖跟委員做報告就是整體的好這要時間出來謝謝謝謝吳委員下一位陳寅委員"},{"start":9650.903,"end":9652.544,"text":"因為部長已經離開那我就先請這個氣候變遷署的蔡署長"},{"start":9675.168,"end":9699.734,"text":"有請署長委員好署長好這次的第28屆全球的氣候變遷高峰會那環境部有參加這是這次的參加有是有透過這個非政府組織的幫忙嗎是跟委員報告我們向來在參與COP相關的會議都是以"},{"start":9700.174,"end":9714.227,"text":"我們國內的非政府組織也就是NGO的名義來參加那我相信你們這次也有收集不少這個相關的資料回來是那這次的會場是不是區分"},{"start":9715.628,"end":9739.286,"text":"剛剛也有委員提到了這個區分了這個藍區跟綠區嘛那我想請教一下署長綠區在官方文宣上是不是有強調就是要開放給原住民團體跟一般民間組織那希望可以促進原住民團體跟政府的對話是 跟委員報告在主辦國它在會場上面它分為藍區跟綠區最主要藍區是"},{"start":9741.587,"end":9756.535,"text":"需要有這個大費許可的報名的證件才能進去那立區它通常就會開放給沒有持有這個報名證件但是可以當地這個去登記啦或者是這樣子一個方式去進去參觀"},{"start":9758.39,"end":9776.521,"text":"好 那個署長你接下來可不可以回答一下為什麼因為我剛剛有提到但是你在附送回答的時候沒有特別再提因為我剛剛有強調就是說綠區在官方文宣上就是有要開放給原住民團體"},{"start":9778.363,"end":9789.956,"text":"因為我是原住民的立法委員所以我會特別關注這個部分那我想請教署長你可不可以回答就是以你的理解為什麼要特別針對原住民團體來開放呢"},{"start":9792.675,"end":9806.966,"text":"這個部分的話我沒有特別去了解說但是因為在藍區事實上也有周邊會議我沒有要關心藍區的部分我在這邊要跟你討論綠區特別開放給原住民團體這個部分"},{"start":9808.587,"end":9836.614,"text":"我想因為其實氣候公約他非常重視就是跟原住民還有跟這個相關的團體的一些對話跟溝通所以主辦國他或許有這個規劃但這個部分確實我沒有因為我今年沒有到現場去參加我想這個有沒有到現場應該是沒有關係那我覺得其實在整個氣候變遷下是這樣子如果署長不清楚也沒關係"},{"start":9837.634,"end":9857.535,"text":"那我今天把這樣的觀念特別在這邊跟署長、讓署長了解一下那也在座的各位也要特別的注意一下就是一個很重要的原因在氣候變遷下最先衝擊的族群任何國家的政府其實都很清楚的就是"},{"start":9858.215,"end":9884.905,"text":"大自然環境最密切的族群其實就是原住民族我們因為在這個環境迫害之下整個原住民族的生存權、發展權甚至這個土地自然資源的權利都是被嚴重傷害的所以這個部分特別在這邊提出來讓署長瞭解因為"},{"start":9886.092,"end":9908.795,"text":"您坐在一個非常重要的位置就是氣候變遷署你是署長所以這一點我希望從現在開始可以特別注意因為未來這個部分到時候我想時間再久一點你會更清楚知道原住民在這整個氣候變遷的一個扮演的角色"},{"start":9909.355,"end":9910.016,"text":"主要主要主要主要主要"},{"start":9917.965,"end":9940.741,"text":"在這個1992年的巴西里約召開的這個里約環境跟發展宣言宣言的部分全部27項有規範各國政府環境權利與責任的基本原則其中的第22項揭示了原住民族的傳統習慣與智慧在環境的永續發展上扮演關鍵的角色因此在各國的政府"},{"start":9941.161,"end":9956.11,"text":"都是要肯定並且支持援助民族參與氣候變遷衝擊一下環境的保護、管理跟監測我想這個概念很重要那身為氣候變遷署的署長要請您特別了解"},{"start":9958.491,"end":9972.102,"text":"這個概念所以我接下來我要請問署長在未來在您帶領的這個氣候變遷署各項措施的計劃是不是應該根據地球憲章的基本原則"},{"start":9972.982,"end":10000.123,"text":"鼓勵並支持援助民族運用我們的智慧與生活習慣來協助你們落實淨零排碳的工作請問署長你支不支持這樣子的一個方向是 完全支持好 謝謝署長那我接下來要請教就是說那我可不可以請署長你們的這個氣候變遷署可以進一步的加以規劃那針對我剛剛提的這些加以規劃可以嗎"},{"start":10000.803,"end":10010.911,"text":"是跟委員報告其實在今年立法院三讀通過氣候變遷因應法也很清楚的把原住民就是我們在擬定氣候變遷各項政策的時候必須要將原住民的相關的跟氣候變遷不管是在減緩跟調適都要納入好那所以你們開始規劃了嗎我們現在在進行的包括就是國家氣候變遷行動綱領"},{"start":10024.762,"end":10040.196,"text":"還有接下來再進行調試計畫都會進行都會納入對都會納入那請問就是你有很你有很認真的把這個原住民族的這個部分你怎麼樣已經加入了這樣子的規劃了嗎"},{"start":10042.237,"end":10064.046,"text":"這個會隨著每一項計畫在實施就是規劃跟提出的期程的時候那我們會開始跟包括跟原住民主管機關還有相關的團體那包括這個最重要就是我們立法院各相關的委員這邊我們都會開始來進行討論因為我也沒有接到你們任何的邀約啦所以看起來是還沒有開始"},{"start":10066.076,"end":10091.358,"text":"對 就跟委託沒有關係那我剛剛講這個規劃你需要多少時間來規劃我們現在因為正在規劃是下一期的國家氣候變遷的就是階段管制目標還有這個行政計畫這個部分我們會把它納入那另外的話就是在進行這個氣候變遷調適的相關的作業這個是明年會開始啟動那這部分我們也會進行"},{"start":10092.299,"end":10108.833,"text":"明年開始啟動那等一下那所以我再問你你還是沒有回答我問題你需要多少時間來規劃好原住民相關的這個特別是原住民相關的這個部分你需要多少時間規劃那跟我們報告我們在至少三個月內我們先就這些計劃跟擬定的時候那需要進行跟這個溝通的一些原則我們先請問你這三個月要跟誰溝通我們先跟這個先你把我們先盤點"},{"start":10121.263,"end":10123.666,"text":"依照《氣候變遷因應法》需要進行推動我剛剛說明的"},{"start":10126.011,"end":10149.016,"text":"這些方案、計劃或者是措施先做一個盤點然後接下來就是需要跟原住民相關團體的這個進行跟進行方式我們來進行討論那剛剛你有特別點名到就是要跟各位原住民的這個立法委員來溝通那我也想要請教你是要跟這一屆的立委溝通還是跟下一屆的原住民立委溝通我跟委員報告我們現在是三個月我們先進行要先盤點有哪一些事項"},{"start":10154.662,"end":10180.951,"text":"有一些方案措施那需要來提的我們先三個月內先盤點出來那接下來才進一步去提說需要溝通的對象那所以所以你後面才要盤點溝通的對象所以你又說你要先跟原住民的立法委員溝通我真的是有點聽不太懂就是說你的意思是其實剩下這個時間你也沒有要跟我們溝通的意思"},{"start":10181.773,"end":10205.92,"text":"我想這個都是持續都會再溝通那我們現在因為剛剛委員關心我們氣候法裡面因為會包括的就是減緩跟調適的這些方案跟計劃那我們先盤點出來有哪一些到底現在接下來有哪一些所以你說三個月就是很明顯其實這一屆的原住民立委你是根本不需要溝通的其實跟委員報告因為我們的任期就到1月"},{"start":10208.201,"end":10226.684,"text":"還沒有你的三個月我們裡面的成員可能不一定是一樣但是我很清楚告訴你我會繼續在這邊其實我們在這段期間內也是一直有跟委員包括我們在進行氣候法的修法當時的在訂定的時候也都持續有在做溝通"},{"start":10228.171,"end":10252.246,"text":"我是沒有太強烈的感覺就是因為我很擔心你溝通的對象不對了啦好那至少我剛剛點出了原住民的這一塊看起來署長從第一個回答並沒有很有概念所以我在這邊我鼓勵你好好去研究一下好那再不然"},{"start":10253.342,"end":10281.826,"text":"我們即便現在在忙選舉但是我想我們的任期在這邊這個做一天和尚敲一天鐘嘛辦公室還是都有在運作啊是我們會積極的對啊你總不會等說要確認我在個我們1月13號確定我有選上之後才要趕快來溝通才要開始慢慢規劃吧是跟我們這段期間其實一直都有跟各個委員在做溝通是有嗎"},{"start":10284.244,"end":10307.116,"text":"我們辦公室有嗎這個我們會改善有嗎對啊你不要亂講話啊就是各個委員我們辦公室就是沒有所以我今天特別提出來所以要請署長特別注意嘛對啊那你要三個月我很擔心啊那你如果要溝通其實你從現在就可以常常來溝通啊我八台都開著是謝謝"},{"start":10307.996,"end":10329.429,"text":"對啊所以我最後再請教一下世界銀行去年指出全球已經有68個國家或區域區域已經有這個碳定價了那今年會有多少國家有定價這個都是要依照那個世界銀行跟各國去做的這個趨勢那在今年初的報告是73個國家或地區"},{"start":10331.107,"end":10353.037,"text":"今年會有73個國家跟地區我想是這樣我們台灣的這個碳交易平台的相關法則不知道現在是進度怎麼樣那是不是有如你們的預期那我比較好奇的就是說你什麼時候來完成訂定這樣子"},{"start":10354.418,"end":10368.708,"text":"我們現在的時程是預計就是在最近會先把這個碳費徵收的相關的規劃來做一個預告那明年的話明年1月會開始就是針對費率的部分會進行這個由費率審議會來做討論"},{"start":10372.079,"end":10396.726,"text":"那所以什麼時候完成?你有預估的時間嗎?我們現在很清楚就是明年的碳排放都會被計到這個碳費徵收的範圍也就是說明年開始這個碳費徵收就會上路那你打算一段大概訂多少錢?這個要由明年的碳費的費率審議會來做討論跟決定好所以那個我剛剛前面問的就是說你預估何時完成訂定目前你們是?"},{"start":10397.762,"end":10423.282,"text":"沒有確確預期的時間會在明年的第一季把包括這是碳費的徵收辦法還有費率審議會這個這個費率的部分來做明年第一季大概就會做確定好那這樣子我我只是提醒吼我們這個各國的經驗其實看起來應該都是越早實施好那整個挑戰就會越小所以我在這邊特別提醒署長好謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":10431.567,"end":10438.575,"text":"謝謝本日會議詢答全部結束委員王婉玉、賴會員楊耀會題書面質詢列入記錄還有一位莊敬成委員書面質詢列入記錄"},{"start":10447.503,"end":10475.097,"text":"刊登公報現在做以下決議報告以及詢答完畢委員質詢未答覆或是補充資料者請相關機構於兩週內以書面答覆委員另有邀期限者從其鎖定本次會議議事錄授權由主席核定後確定本次會議到此結束散會"},{"start":10477.892,"end":10478.073,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10511.798,"end":10527.8,"text":"國際社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆全體委員會第12屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}