{"total":{"value":16,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2024-01-09"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"149081","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149081","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee689f32f4774f7720167826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50deed44c4988e0d765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:32:04 - 10:48:40","影片長度":"00:16:36","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":996,"end_time":"2024-01-09T10:48:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T10:32:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":613,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時32分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。老柯一向老謀深算、老奸巨猾，同意我們開臨時會，其中必有詐，以為要堵我們的嘴、要公開了，原來都沒有，原來今天來，這一本叫做陳建仁替高端擦脂抹粉報告書，貴為行政院長，自甘墮落成為高端的salesman，開口閉口高端多讚又多讚，臺灣多讚又多讚，臺灣前面很讚，但後面就不行了，3加11的破口不要忘了，死了多少人！高端到現在為止走不出去，國際沒有承認高端，不要忘了，它到現在為止沒有做第三期哦！院長，你不要當了院長還……","請院長。"],["主席：陳院長，請。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，謝謝你請我上來，我還以為你不讓我有講的機會，實際上你講的是完全不正確。"],["賴委員士葆：我先講，你不要講，我沒有讓你講，你先不要講，你尊重我。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我會尊重你。"],["賴委員士葆：在這裡是我的時間。院長，原本你上台時，大家覺得你多少有一個學術良心，中研院這麼高的位子、這麼高的學術高度，怎麼會……"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才講的都是事實。"],["賴委員士葆：我講話你不要插嘴可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["賴委員士葆：請你不要插嘴，尊重我。"],["陳院長建仁：那你給我講話的機會，等一下給我講話的機會。"],["賴委員士葆：我讓你講話才講。今天前面的委員「竹篙鬥菜刀」，為什麼今天開這個會？賴清德自己講的，是賴清德先「起鼓」說要公開高端疫苗，到昨天還講要公開，是賴清德要公開，不要忘了，還說什麼政治鬥爭等等之類的，我們是看民調，臺灣人民有70%希望公開，所以才有今天的臨時會。","院長，前面是前言，你不要回答……"],["陳院長建仁：你的前提我可以回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：你不要回答。"],["陳院長建仁：為什麼不讓我回答？"],["賴委員士葆：來，我問你，你有沒有講過高端要公開？"],["陳院長建仁：你這樣不公平啦。"],["賴委員士葆：請你尊重我可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，剛才你前提完，你說要給我回答，你沒有給我回答。"],["賴委員士葆：我等一下會給你回答嘛，你聽完，我的題目在這裡啊，剛才是前言啦、前言啦！","陳建仁說高端公開要董事會同意，陳時中嗆你喔！不可以任意公開；薛瑞元也嗆你啊，薛瑞元有上來……"],["陳院長建仁：斷章取義。"],["賴委員士葆：他嗆你啊，他說高端考量中。欸！高端彷彿你們的皇帝，好像是你們的太上皇一樣欸！"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意。"],["賴委員士葆：高端、高端什麼東西，欸！來，這是你講的、你講的，陳建仁1月5號講的……"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意，而且這是斷章取義的東西。"],["賴委員士葆：不同意嗎？不同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不同意呀！"],["賴委員士葆：你講的，這報紙寫的！"],["陳院長建仁：剛才委員你講的這個，不要在那邊製造分裂啦，實際上……"],["賴委員士葆：關分裂什麼事？"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：你針對我的問題回答。"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：請你針對問題回答。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我……"],["賴委員士葆：請你針對問題回答說，是不是要公開一定要高端同意，是不是？是不是？Yes、No？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我贊成公開。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣就好了、這樣就好了！","高端是行政院的太上皇……"],["陳院長建仁：錯！"],["賴委員士葆：你可以看喔……"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意。"],["賴委員士葆：你剛才、你剛才……"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你剛才回答……你不同意就不同意嘛……"],["薛部長瑞元：高端公司……"],["賴委員士葆：你先不要講！"],["薛部長瑞元：是民營的公司……"],["賴委員士葆：好！剛才院長在回答其他委員的時候，有說我們要信守契約誠信，你講的，有沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：對啊，當然啊。"],["賴委員士葆：對！好，太好了，那你砍軍公教的年金，為什麼不信守那個契約呢？軍公教是法律耶，是by law、是法耶，law是法耶！你說砍就砍，重新砍光光，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？我可以回答嗎？軍公教年改也是依法辦理。"],["賴委員士葆：你怎麼……軍公教為什麼可以不講誠信？為什麼不講誠信？軍公教為什麼可以不講誠信？"],["陳院長建仁：軍公教年改也是依法辦理。"],["賴委員士葆：現在高端要講誠信！為什麼你高端講誠信？"],["陳院長建仁：大法官的釋憲……"],["賴委員士葆：軍公教不講誠信？"],["陳院長建仁：大法官釋憲的結果是可以進行軍公教改革，你相信大法官的解釋，還是相信……"],["賴委員士葆：我當然不相信大法官，都是綠油油的一片！"],["陳院長建仁：你不相信大法官？"],["賴委員士葆：當然不相信呀！大法官都是……"],["陳院長建仁：喔，你不相信大法官，那……"],["賴委員士葆：對不對？大法官誰相信呀！你去問一問，大法官誰相信？全部都綠的。"],["陳院長建仁：我也沒有話講了，你不相信大法官的解釋！"],["賴委員士葆：大法官就是蔡英文一個人的意思而已。","來，所以院長……"],["陳院長建仁：你誤解了臺灣的法律。"],["賴委員士葆：院長，我告訴你，你講說要信守契約只針對高端，軍公教不必信守契約、軍公教不必信守這個承諾……"],["陳院長建仁：我們是依法。"],["賴委員士葆：而且這是法律耶，高端沒有法律。","好，我講給你聽，高端在民國110年5月30號重訊喔！重大訊息發布，它是上櫃公司，第六款仔細看好，我把它放大了，限制條款依採購機關要求，就是衛福部要求不可以公開，所以不是高端不要公開啊！找到、抓到了，是衛福部要求要保密條款……"],["薛部長瑞元：衛福部沒有要求。"],["賴委員士葆：它重訊是這樣。"],["薛部長瑞元：重訊是它單方面公告的。"],["賴委員士葆：奇怪！這個是……"],["薛部長瑞元：它不用經過衛福部同意再去公開……"],["賴委員士葆：這個是高端的重訊，110年5月30號重訊……"],["薛部長瑞元：它要公告重訊不需經過衛福部。"],["賴委員士葆：它說是你們要求它不可以公開，是你們要求的！"],["薛部長瑞元：我們沒有要求。"],["賴委員士葆：它這樣寫啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：它這樣寫並不需要通過我們的同意，它就可以寫啊。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有糾正呀、你沒有糾正喔、你沒有糾正喔。"],["薛部長瑞元：我不是它在證券的主管機關。"],["賴委員士葆：它是你太上皇嘛！所以……"],["薛部長瑞元：什麼叫太上皇？現在是民主時代，哪裡有什麼太上皇！"],["賴委員士葆：再來，行政院、衛福部自導自演，你叫它不可以公開，結果現在說公開要它同意，世間有這種事情？自己……"],["薛部長瑞元：高端是民營公司，難道民營的公司政府隨便要怎麼樣就可以怎麼樣嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：但是它講說……不要忘了，它講、它自己講……"],["薛部長瑞元：你叫全臺灣的民營公司要怎麼樣去生存？"],["賴委員士葆：它的重訊講，是簽約的機關、採購機關，就是政府……"],["薛部長瑞元：這是它一面之詞，衛福部沒有叫它不可以公開！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你不要用高端的重訊來……"],["賴委員士葆：奇怪！重訊，高端也是，奇怪！它公開資料耶，拜託！這是公開資料……"],["陳院長建仁：錯誤的資料。"],["賴委員士葆：金管會主委，來、來、來！"],["陳院長建仁：錯誤的資料。"],["賴委員士葆：黃主委、黃主委，來講一下重訊，黃主委怎麼處理重訊？金管會主委，它的重訊居然是一文不值啊！那金管會主委是幹什麼的？來，黃主委講一下重訊怎麼處理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：重訊有櫃買中心公布的相關辦法，根據那些事項，如果有符合規定的話就要公布。"],["賴委員士葆：那它公布是真的假的？你們要不要查核？"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為委員剛才垂詢的事情我不太瞭解它的背景。"],["賴委員士葆：你去瞭解，你可以請回。","居然大家抓到了，不公開的是衛福部啊！不是高端，卻要我們問高端。來！我們再看上一張，為什麼這裡面你一定不能公開？它又沒有要外銷，它只有101個，買主就是衛福部；它去年1到7月份營業額是0，靠著代理韓國的疫苗，它才有收入，清楚的是它要靠你們。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這回事。"],["賴委員士葆：它拜託你們，怎麼你現在靠他們？大家都怕成這樣！"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，高端的腸病毒疫苗已經上市。"],["陳院長建仁：對，你完全不懂高端的情況，而且現在，委員，我可以講了嘛，你剛才講的這一些說高端賣得很少怎麼樣，但是你不要忘掉高端……"],["賴委員士葆：營業額0啊！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，但是高端，我剛才講過世界衛生組織跟高端有要技轉……"],["賴委員士葆：高端的營業額是0，8月份靠你們的流感疫苗，這是事實啊！"],["陳院長建仁：但是高端的疫苗，高端的COVID-19疫苗確實保護了臺灣300萬人的生命，這個你不可以否認。"],["賴委員士葆：走不出去啊！"],["陳院長建仁：因為它的效果就是跟BNT、莫德納一樣好啊！"],["賴委員士葆：有嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：那你現在抹煞了這種情形，就是因為很多人這樣的抹煞，才會使得臺灣的產業沒有辦法……"],["賴委員士葆：對不起，陳院長，你不要釋放假訊息，剛才我一聽就很生氣，有哪一位國民黨的委員叫你進口中國疫苗？哪一位講出來！哪一位講出來！"],["陳院長建仁：我等一下給你一系列的東西，有喔。"],["賴委員士葆：講出來！講出來！講出來！現在就講！現在就講國民黨哪一位立委說要進口中國疫苗，哪一位你說！你在這裡釋放假訊息啊！你就是假訊息中心！陳院長，你怎麼可以這樣子？"],["陳院長建仁：我不是，這樣子講……"],["賴委員士葆：這樣喪失學術良心！"],["陳院長建仁：這樣子沒有辦法討論事情。"],["賴委員士葆：當然沒有辦法討論，因為你亂扣帽子。"],["陳院長建仁：要來講的是事實，當時有多少人主張要進口中國……"],["賴委員士葆：國民黨沒有立委說要進口中國疫苗。"],["陳院長建仁：使用中國的疫苗。"],["賴委員士葆：以前你萬般阻擋BNT、阻擋什麼的，就是為了高端，我們還在這裡表決一個國民黨團的提案，說我們進口全世界……"],["陳院長建仁：包括中國的疫苗。"],["賴委員士葆：WHO核准的……"],["陳院長建仁：就是包括中國疫苗啊！你講的就是中國疫苗啊！"],["賴委員士葆：高端就沒有列入。"],["陳院長建仁：世界衛生組織核准的疫苗就是有中國的疫苗，所以你們也是主張中國疫苗啊，因為你要世界衛生組織核准的，就是中國疫苗。"],["賴委員士葆：你們可以篩選不要中國的疫苗。"],["陳院長建仁：所以你是有主張啊！所以你剛才自己講啦！"],["賴委員士葆：我哪裡有主張？"],["陳院長建仁：有啊！你說進口世界衛生組織核可的疫苗，就包括了中國的科興跟中國的國藥，所以你這樣主張難道不是嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：你這個是假訊息。"],["陳院長建仁：為什麼假訊息？世界衛生組織核可的就包括中國疫苗，怎麼會沒有？你告訴我世界衛生組織核可的疫苗有沒有中國疫苗，有沒有？有啊！確實是有。"],["賴委員士葆：難道只有中國嗎？沒有其他嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當然有，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！有莫德納啊！"],["陳院長建仁：但是也有中國的疫苗啊！所以你們也是主張會進入世界衛生組織的list裡面嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有人主張，你今天釋放假訊息，我跟你講。"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有釋放假訊息，是你自己講的！是你講說你們主張世界衛生組織的疫苗通通可以進口，那世界衛生組織通過的疫苗就是包括了科興跟國藥。"],["賴委員士葆：你們可以篩選，可以不要它嘛！這東西你不要就不要，人家認為BNT只是經過上海……好！你不要給我拖時間。"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有拖時間，是你講的啊！"],["賴委員士葆：價差，為什麼明明他要700塊就可以，為什麼你們買881、平均840？這不是圖利就是飯桶！"],["陳院長建仁：這不是飯桶！"],["賴委員士葆：那是圖利。"],["陳院長建仁：你那個700塊是take average，臺灣總共要買3,000萬劑的疫苗，是想說大概要700塊，委員不要忘掉AZ疫苗是很便宜的，AZ疫苗是很便宜的，那個我們剛才講到的中國疫苗，那種很簡單作法的，還有那個高階的疫苗，像高端的是不一樣，所以這需要議價，你700塊錢那個是錯的消息。"],["賴委員士葆：這個錄音檔出來……"],["陳院長建仁：那個是剪接的錄音檔。"],["賴委員士葆：那你去告他嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：有啊！已經告了啊！已經被告了啊！現在在司法的調查當中，高端已經去告他們了。"],["賴委員士葆：反正司法院是你們開的嘛！檢調都是你們開的。"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意這一件事情，你這樣講的話，我不同意，檢調怎麼會是行政院開的？"],["賴委員士葆：你不要轉移焦點。"],["陳院長建仁：你這樣講不對嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：我當然講得對啊！怎麼不對？"],["陳院長建仁：你說檢調是我們開的。"],["賴委員士葆：當然是你們開的啊！現在檢調專門在抓藍軍啊！"],["陳院長建仁：我完全、完全反對這樣的講法……"],["賴委員士葆：檢調專門抓藍軍，也沒抓綠軍，綠軍都不抓啊！"],["陳院長建仁：檢調是我們開的？"],["賴委員士葆：綠軍都不抓啊！藍軍拼命抓，就為了選舉的事情拼命介入，司法介選現在進行式啊！"],["陳院長建仁：委員不要選舉到了就到處抹黑啦！"],["賴委員士葆：這樣沒有意思啦！我跟你講。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有意思的是你講的。"],["賴委員士葆：你今天……"],["陳院長建仁：是嘛！你就說檢調怎麼會是我開的？"],["賴委員士葆：你今天是來講的，不是來吵架的啊！"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有吵架，是你……"],["賴委員士葆：陳院長一開始就來吵架啊！"],["陳院長建仁：你……"],["賴委員士葆：你來吵架的啊！院長你脾氣好一點啦！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，你就說……"],["賴委員士葆：你真的不是圖利就是飯桶，講到你的痛處，所以你跟我吵架。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我沒有飯桶、我沒有圖利。"],["賴委員士葆：你飯桶或是圖利，就是這樣。"],["陳院長建仁：我可以講嗎？我可以講嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：不可以講！衛福部不是圖利就是飯桶。","我們看最後一個，你們兩位都可以走。"],["薛部長瑞元：我跟委員講啦！"],["賴委員士葆：請走、請走。"],["薛部長瑞元：BNT比那個價格還高啦！"],["賴委員士葆：薛部長請走。"],["薛部長瑞元：也是用700塊去算的啦！"],["賴委員士葆：薛部長請走。"],["薛部長瑞元：去編預算的啦！"],["賴委員士葆：薛部長請走、薛部長請走、請走，請你們兩位都走，院長留下來，我時間不多了，不要浪費我的時間。","你對於廢死的態度是怎麼樣？蔡英文說廢死是普世目標；陳菊說人權會成立廢死的推動工作小組；游院長說廢除死刑是我們努力的目標啊！所以民進黨推動廢死在路上，在哪裡？在路上，在路上啊！黨綱把它查一查，有廢死呀！以今天來講，為什麼可以拖28個、38個……"],["蔡部長清祥：37。"],["賴委員士葆：38、37都一樣啦！whatever，很多，為什麼這樣？就是因為你們用一個死刑執行規則，這不是法律啊！這就是你訂的，法務部長訂……"],["蔡部長清祥：那是94年就訂了。"],["賴委員士葆：這個東西不是法律的東西，不是法律，對吧？"],["蔡部長清祥：它是一個規則沒有錯……"],["賴委員士葆：規則不是法律嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：但是是94年就已經訂了……"],["賴委員士葆：對！"],["蔡部長清祥：要經過救濟，包括再審、非常上訴，還有釋憲。"],["賴委員士葆：所以很簡單，我在這裡公開呼籲，反對廢死的人，大家票投侯友宜與趙少康，這樣子馬上可以把這一條改掉，已經三審定讞死刑了，還要給他再審？還要給他非常上訴？最惡劣的是還要經過憲法法庭，大法官都是蔡英文提名的，老闆要廢死，當然不敢動啊！這個就是我要講的，票投侯康才可能反廢死，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝賴委員。","報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（10時48分）","繼續開會（10時58分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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好來"},{"start":236.107,"end":265.364,"text":"高端是行政院的太上皇你剛才回答你不同意高端公司是民營的公司剛才院長在回答其他委員的時候有說我們要信守契約誠信你講的有沒有那你看軍公教的年輕為什麼不信守那個契約呢"},{"start":273.565,"end":293.569,"text":"我可以回答嗎我可以回答嗎軍公教連改也是依法辦理而且大法官釋憲大法官釋憲的結果是可以進行軍公教改革你相信大法官的解釋還是相信"},{"start":295.409,"end":303.014,"text":"大法官誰相信大法官誰相信大法官就是蔡英文的一個人的意思而已"},{"start":312.1,"end":337.234,"text":"我告訴你你講說要信守契約只針對高端軍公交不必信守契約啊軍公交不必信守這個承諾而且這是法律欸高端沒有法律好我講給你聽高端在民國110年5月30號重訓喔重大訊息發布他是上櫃公司"},{"start":340.153,"end":343.115,"text":"限制條款依採購機關要求就是衛福部要求"},{"start":353.988,"end":376.948,"text":"不可以公開所以不是高端不要公開啊找到捏到衛福部要求衛福部沒有要求他重訓是這樣要求重訓是一單方面公告的我們給衛福部同意叫他公開這個是高端的重訓114年5月30日重訓他說是我們要求他不可以公開"},{"start":382.012,"end":390.161,"text":"是你們要求的我們沒有要求阿他這樣寫阿他這樣寫並不需要我們通過我們的同意他就可以寫阿你沒有就證阿你沒有就證阿"},{"start":393.206,"end":412.996,"text":"我不是他在這個證券的這個主管的機關他是你太上訪嗎?什麼叫太上訪?現在是民主時代哪有什麼太上訪?現在行政院委員部自導自演你叫他不可以公開結果現在說公開要他同意世界的這個事"},{"start":414.096,"end":438.953,"text":"高端是民營公司,難道民營公司政府隨便要怎麼樣就可以怎麼樣嗎?叫做全台灣的民營公司要怎麼樣去生存這是他一念之詞,問負部沒有叫他不可以公開"},{"start":439.753,"end":467.055,"text":"委員你不要用高端的重訓來...奇怪 重訓 高端的事奇怪 他公開資料欸拜託這是公開資料錯誤的資料來來來 黃主委黃主委來來講講一下重訓 黃主委怎麼處理重訓金管會主委他的重訓居然是一文不值啊那金管會主委是幹什麼的來來來 黃主委講一下重訓怎麼處理"},{"start":468.24,"end":490.249,"text":"中訓他有歸買中心他的中訓的公佈的辦法根據那些事項如果有符合規定的話就要公佈那他公佈是真的假的你們要不要查核這個就是他當委員您剛才垂詢的事情我不太瞭解他的背景你去瞭解好不好你瞭解好即便這樣來我在你可以請回就居然"},{"start":501.294,"end":529.368,"text":"來 我們來看喔 下一張上一張我們可以 我們來可以看了可以看為什麼這裡面你一定不能公開為什麼一定不能公開他又沒有要外銷他只有一百零一個買主就是衛務部他去年的一到七月份營業額是零啊靠著"},{"start":536.561,"end":551.034,"text":"報告委員高端的長病毒疫苗已經上市對你完全不懂高端的情況而且現在委員我可以講了吧"},{"start":552.708,"end":576.822,"text":"你剛才講的這一些說高端賣得很少怎麼樣但是呢你不要忘掉高端我剛才講過世界衛生組織跟高端有要進轉但是高端的疫苗確實高端的COVID-19疫苗確實保護了台灣300萬人的生命"},{"start":580.72,"end":600.087,"text":"這個你不可以否認因為他的效果就是跟BNT跟莫德納一樣好啊那你現在抹煞了這種事情就是因為很多人這樣的抹煞才會使得台灣的產業沒有辦法剛才我在那裡聽我聽得很生氣有哪一位國民黨的委員所叫你進口中國疫苗哪一位講出來"},{"start":601.107,"end":617.85,"text":"哪一位講出來講出來講出來講出來你現在就講 下次講國民黨哪一位立委說要進口中國疫苗哪一位你說你在這裡分放假訊息啊你就是假訊息中心陳院長你怎麼可以這樣子啊這樣子沒有辦法討論事情啊當然沒有辦法討論要來講的是事實當時有多少人主張要進入中國"},{"start":627.032,"end":628.253,"text":"國民黨團提案了說我們進口全世界"},{"start":645.939,"end":669.822,"text":"包括中國的疫苗就是包括中國疫苗啊你講的就是中國疫苗啊世界衛生組織核准的疫苗就是有中國的疫苗所以你們也是主張中國疫苗啊因為你要世界衛生組織核准的就是中國疫苗所以你是有主張啊所以你剛才自己講了有啊"},{"start":670.282,"end":685.469,"text":"你說進口世界衛生組織合格的疫苗就包括了中國的科興跟中國的國藥所以你這樣主張難道不是嗎你這個是假訊息世界衛生組織合格的就包括中國疫苗"},{"start":686.28,"end":711.249,"text":"怎麼會沒有?你告訴我世界衛生組織可可的疫苗有沒有中國疫苗?有沒有?有啊!確實是有!當然有!但是也有中國的疫苗啊!所以你們也是主張會進入世界衛生組織的list裡面嘛!我沒有發過小訊息!是你自己講的!是你講說你們主張世界衛生組織的疫苗通通可以進口!"},{"start":712.335,"end":730.239,"text":"那世界衛生組織通過的疫苗就是包括了科興跟國藥你們要可以篩選可以不要它嘛這東西你不要就不要人家認為BNT只是經過上海票好 你不要給我拖時間齁我沒有拖時間是你講的齁假查為什麼明明他說700塊才會殺你啊為什麼2881平均840這不是圖利就是白頭這是崩潰"},{"start":736.232,"end":761.945,"text":"這不是文章你那個700塊是Tag Average台灣當中要買3000萬這個疫苗是想說大概要700塊委員不要忘掉AZ疫苗是很便宜的AZ疫苗是很便宜的那個我們剛才講到的中國的疫苗那種很簡單的做法的還有那個高階的疫苗像高端的是不一樣所以這時需要約價你700塊錢那個是錯的消息"},{"start":765.133,"end":788.195,"text":"這個錄音檔出來那個是剪接的錄音檔那你去告他嘛有啊已經被告啦現在在司法的調查當中高端已經去告他們了這個剪調都是你們開的剪調是我不同意這件事情你這樣講的話我不同意剪調怎麼會是行政院開的你不要轉離焦點你這樣講不對嘛我當然講對啊"},{"start":788.915,"end":790.556,"text":"委員不要選舉到的到處抹黑啦沒有意思的是你講的"},{"start":810.54,"end":819.842,"text":"你真的不是圖利就是飯桶講到你痛楚所以你跟我吵架沒有 我沒有飯桶 我沒有圖利你飯桶或是圖利我可以講嗎不是圖利 不可以講"},{"start":839.174,"end":842.296,"text":"你對發言費時的態度怎麼樣財務委員說費時不是目標陳菊人權會成立費時的推動工作項目"},{"start":867.577,"end":897.092,"text":"有院長說廢除死刑是我們努力的目標啊所以民進黨推動廢死在路上在路上在哪裡在路上在路上啊黨綱把它查一查有廢死啊今天來講為什麼可以拖28個38個3738 37都一樣whatever很多為什麼這樣就是因為你們用一個叫死刑執行規則這不是法律啊"},{"start":898.095,"end":903.798,"text":"在這裏公開呼籲大家反對被死的人票投侯友宇張少康"},{"start":921.989,"end":937.584,"text":"這樣子馬上可以把這一條改掉一定三審定院死刑了還要給他再審還要給他非常上訴最惡劣的是還要經過憲法法庭大法官都是採用提名的當然老闆要廢死不堪動"},{"start":949.334,"end":952.518,"text":"休息10分鐘 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10:31:59","影片長度":"00:15:21","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":921,"end_time":"2024-01-09T10:31:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T10:16:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":557,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時16分）謝謝主席，本席邀請我們行政院陳院長。"],["主席：院長請。"],["林委員俊憲：衛福部部長及法務部部長。"],["主席：法務部部長請。"],["陳院長建仁：林委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：院長好。院長，想不到我們到2024年第一次在立法院開會還在討論高端疫苗的事情，高端疫苗這個事情討論了兩年多，光是行政院院長的報告就有3次，你今天第4次來，光是在委員會的專案報告就有16次了，委員會的調閱就有2次，國民黨的召委蔣萬安主持，契約就拿出來看嘛！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["林委員俊憲：有沒有看過？看2遍啦！看過2次。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["林委員俊憲：蔣萬安主持的會議，所以有什麼樣的弊案就告了63個案，有關司法偵辦，法務部長在這裡，全部都是沒有不法，偵結不起訴嘛！國民黨如果有問題就去告啊！今天為什麼叫你來？所以你要有耐心一點啦！我覺得他們是為了選舉，選舉要輸了，選舉必敗啦！一定會大敗啦！想要用高端案再來轉移焦點，黔驢技窮，沒招了用這種爛招啦！所以你今天解釋得再清楚、你今天說明得再好，他們一樣不會接受，就是要來辱罵你，要給你丟泥巴、抹黑你啦！所以你要忍耐一下啦！"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["林委員俊憲：這是他們的選舉動作啦！國民黨真的有心要查，我剛上台以前看了一下啦，38席的國民黨委員只來23席，還有40%的國民黨立委沒有來，還是我們民進黨幫忙它動員今天才可以成會，真的有心要查就全部來啊！負責任一點啊！國民黨立委連國民黨黨團自己都叫不過來，叫他開會都不來，他們今天要求開這個題目，以為民進黨會把它封殺，選前4天開什麼臨時會？討論一個已經兩年多來，我剛才說的再說一次，行政院長專案報告3次，委員會專案報告16次，委員會調閱2次，司法查了63個案子全部不起訴，選前4天還來開這個會，為什麼？當然為了選舉，它以為民進黨把它否決掉，讓會開不成，然後就說民進黨害怕，民進黨要隱瞞，想不到我們就直球對決嘛！就讓陳建仁院長來講清楚，讓在野黨來質詢，只是你講得再好、你說得再清楚，他們一樣不接受啦！因為你剛才有提到，契約為什麼不能公布？我們好像跟每一個……當時搶購疫苗，全世界都在搶，在契約裡面他們都有要求保密的年限，好啦！高端就算我們現在請它公布，它不公布，如果它董事會開了一樣不公布，5年後我們就有權利公布了，是不是這樣？衛福部部長，是不是這樣子？"],["薛部長瑞元：最慢就是5年。"],["林委員俊憲：5年嘛，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["林委員俊憲：所以我們現在請它公布，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員俊憲：我們不是只針對高端有保密條款。"],["薛部長瑞元：所有的都有。"],["林委員俊憲：AZ、高端保密幾年？5年。"],["薛部長瑞元：5年。"],["林委員俊憲：我理解這樣對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員俊憲：因為你們以前都報告過了，我都有印象啦！Novavax保密7年，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：7年，對。"],["林委員俊憲：BNT是10年。"],["薛部長瑞元：10年。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["林委員俊憲：莫德納賣我們時要求永遠不能公布。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["林委員俊憲：我們那時候為了搶莫德納，大家說要注射莫德納，所以我們只好也是簽了，我們就永遠不能公布嘛！在立法院委員會調閱的時候，國民黨說有一些東西塗黑，但是最重要的數字後來都有浮現出來，疫苗的單價、疫苗的數量，然後政府花了多少錢，這才是最重要的。還在吵這個事情！不要妄想用高端疫苗案當作是凱旋苑這個剝皮寮的遮羞布，今天浪費行政和立法的資源找你們來這裡，討論過那麼多次還在討論，這有問題就去告嘛！我再請問院長，你剛剛說你要說清楚，查了那麼多，高端的股價異常有沒有人為炒作？政府目前的司法調查狀況怎麼樣？哪一位可以報告？法務部部長可以報告一下嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：在高端的相關案件涉及不法的部分，其實檢調單位曾經有調查，士林地檢署對於食藥署的疫苗審查專家劉醫師，他洩密高端好的研究成果給他的太太施醫師，因此犯了內線交易，經過士林地院判決有期徒刑3個月、緩刑2年，有期徒刑1年6個月、緩刑4年，這部分都已經有所定案，如果真有不法的時候，我們一定查到底，這是絕對不會有所收手的，我們一定會全力以赴，政府是這樣來看待高端的情形。我剛才講過，民間提出63件對於陳時中圖利、瀆職的控訴，臺北地檢署經過調查以後查無不法，全數簽結，所以在這裡我們已經經過這些很嚴謹的事情，而且地檢署就是完全按照這樣的方式，很認真在查緝相關可能被提及的弊案，但是完全都是查無不法，然後完全簽結。這件事情我覺得我完全同意委員，現在才提出來完全就是一個選舉的炒作。不過講到選舉的炒作，我可以講一下嗎？"],["林委員俊憲：可以。"],["陳院長建仁：我們來看看，當COVID-19剛剛開始進入臺灣的時候，我們的在野黨還有境外勢力的協力者怎麼說？他們說我們要跟中國一樣看待，我們一定要封城、我們一定要普篩、我們一定要停班停課、我們一定要停工，好在我們當時的中央流行疫情指揮中心說不是！我們要做好邊境管控、我們要做好疫調、我們要做好居家隔離及居家檢疫，結果我們在2020年365天裡面有兩百五十多天零確診，全世界大為驚艷，而且我們的經濟在那時候是全世界成長率最高的兩個國家之一，美國也是這樣來稱讚，美國的經濟研究所也說臺灣做得最好，死亡率最低而經濟負成長最少，也就是有正成長的一個國家，全世界第一名喔！但到了2021年我們開始在談疫苗的時候，有多少在野黨還有境外勢力的附和者說要買中國的疫苗？中國的疫苗是效價最低的，智利買了中國的疫苗以後，疫情繼續上升，直到打BNT才下來，澳洲跟香港也打了這個疫苗，然後不得不打BNT的疫苗。幸好當時我們是蔡總統贏得2020年的選舉，幸好國會過半，要不的話，我們的防疫特別條例、我們的疫後特別條例要通過，我看還是百般刁難。","我們當時幸好沒有買國藥跟科興，你如果買了以後，像中國一樣連續三年，處處在封城，天天在普篩，然後經濟蕭條，就會隨著中國沉淪。","好，那個時候因為有很多民眾為了一些附和者說AZ有很多副作用，就不敢打預防針，不敢打預防針的結果，臺灣現在有好的疫苗，副作用比較低的高端，欸！他偏偏去抹黑它，讓怕有副作用的人也不打高端，結果呢？臺灣70歲以上的老人家只有七成五打預防針，你看看日本、韓國，還有新加坡，都到九成五以上，所以我們臺灣死亡的人大部分都是沒有打預防針的這些老人家，一個錯誤的建議、一個抹黑、謾罵，使得臺灣有多少老人家因此而死亡，這實在是令我很痛心！可以這樣嗎？可以為了政治利益，使得我們國人不願意去打預防針，可以嗎？現在選舉到了，還要繼續謾罵，現在要鼓勵大家打XBB，這樣子一講，老人家又不去打了，誰要負責任？所以我覺得這一些在野黨實在是……","幸好，你看看，如果不是蔡總統連任，不是國會過半，如果韓國瑜選上了總統，如果其他的在野黨過半的時候，臺灣不會有今天這樣的局面，這是我今天很沉痛地要講，高端疫苗是多好的疫苗，動物實驗、臨床一期、臨床二期都做得那麼成功，在世界一流的雜誌上發表，偏偏要抹黑，讓臺灣的人民不願意去接種，這是副作用最低的，你讓那些怕副作用的老人家不打，於心何忍啊！真的，今天我實在是，大家說我激動，我這樣激動的原因就是，這樣依附中國的作法很可能使得臺灣是很沉淪的，跟著中國一起沉淪。","所以臺灣在這三年，我們的經濟GDP是連續三年最高的，而且我們的外銷也是最高的，所以我們才有很好的歲入歲出盈餘，連續五年超過1,000億，2022年可以到達5,000億，這是全民努力的成果。但是在野黨為了政治利益，可以這樣抹煞我們全民的努力，可以抹煞所有防疫一線的人員，這2,300萬個無名英雄的功績可以這樣抹煞嗎？今天我實在是太難過了！"],["林委員俊憲：院長，你也辛苦了！但是，我們也知道在當時，臺灣防疫成績確實是全世界肯定，光是海外的臺灣人跑回臺灣國內，回來避難的，當時估計就至少100萬。"],["陳院長建仁：是啊！"],["林委員俊憲：有能力的都跑回臺灣來，臺灣那時候二百多天是零確診，是全世界最安全的地方。當時需要注射疫苗的時候，國民黨還強力要求說不可以歧視中國疫苗，你剛有提到嘛！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["林委員俊憲：要求政府要進口中國疫苗來打，中國人自己都不打他們的疫苗啦！有能力的中國人他們還是要打輝瑞啦！他們自己的疫苗他們也不敢打啦！但不管如何，回歸到今天在野黨再來搞這個所謂的高端疫苗什麼契約啦！完全就是為了選舉操作，完全為了要轉移焦點。既然會已經開了，民進黨協助，會才開得成，要求要開會的是國民黨，自己的立委也不來開會，還是民進黨幫它動員，現在會議才開得成，疫苗也不是沒有討論過，我剛剛就提過了，這二年多來開了幾十次會議，當時委員會調閱的時候，立法院衛環委員會的每一個立委都看過契約，他們說有塗黑，塗黑的部分我認為主要就是價格、數量等等那些東西嘛！後來，高端自己也有片面的一些公布。再說，如果真的它們公司拒絕公布，那五年後這個東西大家還是看得到，但是如果契約有限定，就像我們剛提的，AZ、高端說5年，Novavax說7年，BNT要求10年，莫德納要求我們永遠不能公布，那我搞不懂耶！大家可以要求、在野黨可以要求政府去做一個違反契約、違法的事情嗎？就這麼簡單啊，是不是這樣？任何人都有可能執政啦，任何政黨執政，你可以簽一個合約，然後自己違背這個契約，這顯不合理嘛！但是重點資訊也不是沒有討論過，不是這樣嗎？沒關係啦！這是你行政院長的職責，你到立法院來，就把該解釋的解釋、該說明的說明。"],["陳院長建仁：我會。"],["林委員俊憲：但是你講得再好、說明得再清楚，他們還是不會接受，所以院長不要生氣。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我沒有生氣，我是認為臺灣人的生命很重要、健康的保護很重要，在這樣的情況下，我們真的是希望朝野都能夠團結一致，使得臺灣的防疫工作做得越來越好，而不要去抹黑臺灣很難得做出來的好疫苗，使得很多民眾因為它被抹黑的關係而沒辦法使用，導致喪失了很多生命，說老實話，這件事情我到現在是沒辦法接受的。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝，院長，辛苦你了。"],["陳院長建仁：不會啦，我們一定努力按照委員的意見，在這裡來好好回答問題。"],["林委員俊憲：選舉到了都會發生這些奇奇怪怪的事情。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我也希望全民大家團結一致抗疫。在這裡我還要再呼籲一下，希望大家都能夠去打XBB的COVID-19的預防針，因為中國大陸現在有JN.1的新病毒株出來，針對這個病毒株，XBB的疫苗才會有效，以往打的不會有效果。我也希望大家不要再去抹黑，並且好好地去做好預防接種，才是全民之福。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝院長、謝謝兩位部長。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝主席。"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不要妄想用高端疫苗案當作是凱旋院這扒皮鳥的遮羞布"},{"start":271.004,"end":299.049,"text":"所以你今天浪費行政和立法的資源照理埋在這裏討論過那麼多次還在討論這有問題是要去告嘛那我在請問院長你剛說你要說清楚的查了那麼多那高端的股價異常有沒有人為炒作那政府調查的目前是否調查狀況怎麼樣跟南威爾可以報告跟王部長可以報告一下嗎好"},{"start":300.106,"end":319.325,"text":"在這個高端的相關的這個案件涉及不法的部分其實檢調單位曾經有調查士林地檢署有這個對於食藥署裡面的疫苗審查專家這個劉醫師他洩密高端的這個好的這個研究成果給他的太太"},{"start":320.526,"end":345.445,"text":"施醫師因此因為犯了內線交易經過士林地院判決有期徒刑三個月緩刑兩年有期徒刑一年六個月緩刑四年這一個部分都已經有所定案所以如果真的有不法的時候我們一定是查到底的這個是絕對不會有所搜索的我們一定會全力以赴"},{"start":346.434,"end":371.745,"text":"所以政府是這樣子的來看看這一個高端的這樣的情形那我剛才講過這個有民間提出了63件對於陳時中的圖利瀆職的這一些控訴在臺北地檢署呢他經過了這個調查以後呢就查無不法的全數簽結所以在這裡我們已經經過了這一些很嚴謹的事情而且"},{"start":372.425,"end":372.585,"text":"林俊憲議員"},{"start":395.157,"end":413.506,"text":"我可以講一下嗎我們來看看當COVID-19剛剛開始進入到台灣的時候我們的在野黨還有境外勢力的這個協力者他怎麼說說我們要跟中國一樣看待我們一定要來這一個封城我們一定要普篩我們一定要停班停課我們一定要停工"},{"start":414.741,"end":425.722,"text":"好在我們當時的中央流行疫情指揮中心說不是我們要做好邊境管控我們要做好疫調我們要做好居家隔離居家檢疫結果呢我們在2020年"},{"start":427.398,"end":445.903,"text":"三百六十五天裡面有兩百五十多天是零確診全世界大為驚豔而且我們的經濟在那個時候是全世界成長率最高的兩個國家之一那美國也是這樣來稱讚美國的經濟研究所也是說台灣做得最好死亡率最低而經濟負成長"},{"start":447.824,"end":447.984,"text":"林俊憲議員"},{"start":465.686,"end":490.162,"text":"致力買了中國的疫苗以後疫情繼續上升直到打BNT才下來澳洲跟香港也打了這個疫苗然後不得不打BNT的疫苗幸好當時我們是蔡總統能夠贏得2020的選舉幸好國會過半要不的話我們的防疫特別條例我們的疫後特別條例要通過我看還是百般刁難"},{"start":491.303,"end":513.174,"text":"那好 那我們當時幸好沒有買國藥跟這個科興喔你如果買了以後 像中國一樣連續三年 處處在封城 天天在補篩然後經濟蕭條 就會隨著中國沉淪那個時候 因為有很多的民眾為了"},{"start":515.094,"end":516.135,"text":"臺灣的70歲以上的老人家"},{"start":535.288,"end":562.656,"text":"只有7成5打預防針你看看日本韓國還有新加坡多到9成5以上所以我們台灣死亡的人大部分都是沒有打預防針的這些老人家一個錯誤的建議一個抹黑謾罵使得台灣有多少老人家因此而死亡這實在令我很痛心欸可以這樣嗎可以為了政治利益使得我們的國人不願意去打預防針"},{"start":564.244,"end":585.811,"text":"可以嗎還現在選舉到了還要繼續來謾罵現在要鼓勵大家來XBB啦這樣子一講老人家又不去打了誰要負責任所以我覺得齁這一些在野黨實在是不是幸好你看看如果不是蔡總統連任不是國會過半如果韓國瑜"},{"start":587.311,"end":612.386,"text":"選上了總統如果其他的在野黨過半的時候台灣不會有今天這樣的局面這是我今天很沉痛的要講高端疫苗是多好的疫苗動物實驗臨床一期臨床二期都做得那麼成功在世界一流的雜誌上發表偏偏要抹黑讓台灣的人民不願意去接種但是副作用最低的你讓那些怕副作用的老人家不打於心何忍啊"},{"start":613.732,"end":623.964,"text":"真的我今天實在是大家說我激動我就是這樣激動的原因就是我這樣子依附到中國去的做法"},{"start":624.878,"end":644.724,"text":"就是很可能使得台灣是很沉淪的跟著中國一起沉淪所以台灣在這幾年3年我們的經濟GDP是連續3年最高的而且我們的這個外銷也是最高的所以我們才有很好的這個稅入稅出盈餘連續5年超過1000億去2022年可以到達5000億這是全民努力的成果"},{"start":653.027,"end":678.492,"text":"但是在野黨為了政治利益可以這樣抹煞我們全民的努力可以抹煞所有防疫一線的人員這2300萬個無名英雄的攻擊可以這樣抹煞嗎今天我實在是太難過了院長你也辛苦啦但是啦我們也知道在當時啦台灣確實防疫成績啦是全世界肯定光是海外的台灣人跑回台灣國內回來避難了"},{"start":681.847,"end":707.201,"text":"當時估計就至少100萬有能力都跑回台灣來台灣那時候200多天是零確診是全世界最安全的地方當時疫苗剛需要注射疫苗的時候國民黨還強力要求說不可以歧視中國疫苗你剛有提到嘛 對不對要求這個政府要進口中國疫苗來打中國人自己都不打他們的疫苗"},{"start":708.274,"end":735.84,"text":"有能力的中國人啊他們都他們要打輝瑞啦他們自己的疫苗他們也不敢打但不管如何啦回歸到今天災黨再來搞這個所謂的高端疫苗啦什麼契約啦完全就是為了選舉操作完全為了要轉移焦點既然會已經開了民進黨協助會才開得成要求要開會的是國民黨"},{"start":738.405,"end":766.637,"text":"自己的立委也不來開會還是民進黨幫他動員現在會議才開得成說疫苗 疫苗也不是沒有討論過我剛就提過啦這兩年多來開了幾次社會議在當時啦 委員會調閱的時候啦立法院委員會的每一個立委都看過契約啦他們說有土匪啦土匪的部分我認為主要就是價格啦 雖然都沒有那些東西嘛"},{"start":767.555,"end":790.175,"text":"後來高端自己也有片面的一些公布那我再說如果他真的他們公司拒絕公布那5年後這個東西大家還是看得到但是如果契約有限定就像我們剛提的AZ高端說5年Normal Vax 7年BND要求10年莫德納要求我們永遠不能公布"},{"start":792.128,"end":820.441,"text":"那我搞不懂耶大家可以要求 災難可以要求政府去做一個違反契約違法的事情嗎就這麼簡單啊 是不是這樣 任何人都有可能執政啊任何政黨執政 你可以簽一個合約 然後你自己違背違背跟這個契約 這顯不合理嘛但是重點資訊啊 也不是沒有討論過"},{"start":822.554,"end":838.17,"text":"那不是這樣所以吼你今天吼沒關係啦這是你行政院的職責啦你到我們立法院來你就把該解釋的解釋該說明的說明我會但是你講的再好說明的再清楚這些東西他們還是不會接受"},{"start":839.345,"end":859.506,"text":"這院長不要收集我不是收集我是覺得台灣人的生命是很重要 健康的保護是很重要那在這樣的一個情況下我們真的是希望我們草野都能夠團結一致使得台灣的防疫工作做得越來越好不要去抹黑台灣的這一個很難得做出來的這個好疫苗"},{"start":860.026,"end":885.743,"text":"然後使得很多的民眾因為他被抹黑的關係沒有辦法使用而喪失了很多的生命這件事情我到現在說老實話我是沒有辦法接受的啦好 謝謝啦 一定辛苦你啦我們一定努力的按照委員的意見在這裡來好好回答問題選舉到了都會發生這些奇奇怪怪的事情我也希望我們全民大家團結一致抗議"},{"start":886.263,"end":910.392,"text":"在這裡我還要再呼籲一下希望大家都能夠去打XBB的COVID-19的預防針因為中國大陸現在有JN1新的病毒株出來這個病毒株這個XBB的疫苗才會有效以往打的不會有效果那我也希望大家不要再去抹黑然後大家好好的去做好這個預防的接種那才是全民之福啦好 謝謝院長 謝謝兩位部長謝謝主席"},{"start":918.957,"end":920.603,"text":"謝謝林委員接下來請大委員述言"}]}},{"id":"149079","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149079","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee68928d87c67ae6d835e826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50db1ce09e5d905ece5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"曾銘宗","委員發言時間":"10:00:24 - 10:16:30","影片長度":"00:16:06","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":966,"end_time":"2024-01-09T10:16:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T10:00:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":377,"blocks":[["曾委員銘宗：（10時）謝謝院長。我要先程序發言，兩點：第一點，院會，我就質詢院長，這是第一點，其他部會首長不能上來；第二點，院長，我剛剛看那個情況，到底誰在質詢誰啊？叫院長答的時候再答，還在反質詢！好不好？院長，這次可能是這一屆你最後一次主持院會，希望展現的是中華民國立法院院長，好不好？","好，謝謝。請院長。"],["主席：好，陳院長請。"],["陳院長建仁：曾委員好！"],["曾委員銘宗：院長好！其實我看了，你答得不錯了，我問的問題你全部可以答，放心！我不會為難你。","第一個，羅致政委員的不雅影片已經鑑定完成，什麼時候要公布？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，這好像跟今天的議題沒有關係耶！不過我可以跟你講，這件事情已經進入了司法調查，我們行政院完全支持，也希望我們檢調單位能夠盡速查明真相。我們尊重……"],["曾委員銘宗：那個影片是不是偽造、變造？"],["陳院長建仁：我們尊重檢調調查的結果。"],["曾委員銘宗：調查結果是不是偽造、變造？院長，什麼時候公布？選後再公布，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：我們會尊重司法獨立。"],["曾委員銘宗：你曉不曉得檢調一體？你不公布就是政府介選，你同不同意？"],["陳院長建仁：不同意！"],["曾委員銘宗：不同意，你的立場……"],["陳院長建仁：我想在檢調的調查過程當中都要很審慎……"],["曾委員銘宗：你的立場我可以理解，你當然不同意啊！"],["陳院長建仁：你的立場當然也是會這樣子質詢我，我是覺得很正常。"],["曾委員銘宗：好，第二個問題。"],["陳院長建仁：但是這個是……"],["曾委員銘宗：不同意沒關係，讓2,300萬民眾去做出公斷。","另外，羅致政的另外一個影片，跟總統對話的整個錄音檔外流，到底誰偷錄這個影片？"],["陳院長建仁：這個也正在偵查當中。"],["曾委員銘宗：還在偵查啊！"],["陳院長建仁：當然啦！"],["曾委員銘宗：會不會是羅致政自己錄？就是他們兩個對話啊！"],["陳院長建仁：這是你個人的猜測，我是很懷疑。"],["曾委員銘宗：好，那你認為誰錄？"],["陳院長建仁：我不知道，這就要檢調來偵查……"],["曾委員銘宗：高度懷疑就是羅致政自己錄。"],["陳院長建仁：因為我們都不是偵查的專家，而且更重要的，你剛才講的也是你個人的想法。"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，你不要等閒視之啊！"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有等閒視之。"],["曾委員銘宗：假設您跟蔡總統的對話也被錄，這有可能啊！一個國會議員跟總統的講話都被錄音，那您跟……"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們很慎重而且積極的來進行相關的調查工作，而且要進一步去看看這個錄音帶到底是不是偽造，要做相關的鑑定等等，所以……"],["曾委員銘宗：多久可以出來？"],["陳院長建仁：所以偵查……"],["曾委員銘宗：選後，對不對？也是選後。"],["陳院長建仁：偵查一定是要審慎……"],["曾委員銘宗：當然要審慎啊！"],["陳院長建仁：然後一定要有科學化，這樣才能夠……"],["曾委員銘宗：什麼時候會出來？你……"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有辦法替檢調回答這個問題。"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，這是國安問題耶！一個國會議員跟總統的對話被錄音、被流露出來，或許明天就公布你跟總統的對話，這是國安的問題耶！這涉及到國家安全耶！"],["陳院長建仁：我同意，我同意這是國安的問題，但是……"],["曾委員銘宗：好，國安問題，什麼時候有個結論？"],["陳院長建仁：我跟你報告過了，我們最重要的就是要讓檢調以科技、科學的方法，還有很審慎地來看看，有沒有是偽造、變造等等，所以這是不是要時間？委員，我們可以信口開河，隨便講嗎？當然不可以嘛！這就是為什麼檢調要審慎調查的原因。"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，你說誰信口開河？你說誰信口開河？"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有啊！我是覺得如果你說今天就要公布……"],["曾委員銘宗：你是說我嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我不是說你……"],["曾委員銘宗：我在國會殿堂耶！"],["陳院長建仁：我不是說你信口開河，但是最重要的，很多人都沒有說什麼檢調馬上要公布，這是不可能的事情嘛！因為事情的調查總是要時間……"],["曾委員銘宗：國安的問題耶！"],["陳院長建仁：國安很重要，我們會要求……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，哪一天公布了您跟總統的對話。"],["陳院長建仁：這很重要，我也同意，但是檢調會很審慎地來做相關的調查。"],["曾委員銘宗：審慎到什麼時候？"],["陳院長建仁：而且很迅速……"],["曾委員銘宗：一個禮拜、二個禮拜、選後？"],["陳院長建仁：調查的時間，我們會請這一些單位一定要加速辦理。"],["曾委員銘宗：好，反正也問不出什麼名堂。","另外，賴總統候選人12月30號表示，為了釐清民眾對政府購買高端的疑慮，政府要公布合約。為什麼時間過去了，到現在還不公布？"],["陳院長建仁：這個理由我剛才已經有說明過了，讓我再說明一下，因為當時我們跟高端簽訂這個合約的時候有5年保密這一個條款，在政府為簽約人一方的時候，我們當然要信守我們當時簽約的這一些約定。但是我們曉得賴副總統他希望能夠公開，政府的態度也希望能夠儘早公開，但是因為有簽約的關係，所以我們……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，你過去賴清德候選人今天講，明天你就配合、行政院就宣布，為什麼獨獨這件事情你不願意配合？"],["陳院長建仁：因為這裡我們有條約的限制在，政府需要維持政府的誠信，如果政府沒有維持誠信的話，未來我們要跟別人簽約，你想我們會簽約嗎？"],["曾委員銘宗：政府的誠信？院長，您曉不曉得高端公司的往來對象幾乎只有蔡政府，你知不知道？你知不知道它做生意的對象？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得這是你個人的看法。"],["曾委員銘宗：什麼個人看法！你看它的銷售收入啊！它做生意的收入啊！表示你業務不熟啦！"],["陳院長建仁：我熟得很。"],["曾委員銘宗：它99.9%的銷售收入都是只有蔡政府，你只要它，你是它唯一銷售的對象，你叫它公布，它就公布，而且只有董事會通不通過。"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才在報告的時候以及跟兩位邱委員在講的時候就講得很清楚，我們也主張要公開，而且我們也是積極地跟高端來聯繫，希望它能夠儘早來公布我們這一些契約。而且我要跟您報告，所有的契約都是照制式化契約的方式來看，而且大院的調閱小組也看過這一些，只是把某一些地方、重要的關鍵……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，你沒有來，都塗掉啦！"],["陳院長建仁：塗掉，對啊！"],["曾委員銘宗：我還要給你看啦！這合約有一條你為什麼不敢公布？合約裡面有一些不公平、不合理啦！民法規定顯失公平的合約是無效的，我念給你聽啦！廠商說明已盡商業上最大努力而無法履約者，機關同意不對廠商追償已支付之契約價金。"],["陳院長建仁：那接下來呢？"],["曾委員銘宗：就這樣子啊！它已經做到努力，就不追償價金啦！"],["陳院長建仁：剛才我的報告裡面已經講了，如果可以歸諸於廠商……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，這個顯失公平合理啦！院長，我跟你講，我當了一輩子的公務員，我沒看過這種合約。"],["陳院長建仁：你看過吧？"],["曾委員銘宗：沒看過這種合約，顯失公平，難怪你不敢公布啦！難怪你不敢公布啦！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，你這樣講，我不同意。"],["曾委員銘宗：不同意，不同意就……"],["陳院長建仁：很重要的一件事情是……"],["曾委員銘宗：不同意就趕快公布、不同意就趕快公布，這個契約顯失公平。"],["陳院長建仁：剛才我已經講過，如果可歸諸於廠商的，是要處罰的啊！"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，這契約顯失公平，這契約無效，顯失公平。"],["陳院長建仁：我們有處罰的就處罰，所以並不是沒有處罰。你這樣講，你是斷章取義啦！"],["曾委員銘宗：沒有啊！就合約啊！"],["陳院長建仁：對啊，我跟你講，我剛才也講過，如果違反合約的時候是廠商的責任，它是要受處罰的啊！有啊！有寫在另外一條啊！"],["曾委員銘宗：它自願公布就可以了啦！什麼處罰？你懂不懂啊？"],["陳院長建仁：我懂喔！"],["曾委員銘宗：再請教你，這個疫苗有幾個疑點。"],["陳院長建仁：好，你說。"],["曾委員銘宗：第一個，高端是民間公司，為什麼衛福部還沒有採購，高端公司就已經知道採購價格？它就知道700塊以上。"],["陳院長建仁：那個是錯假消息，那個700塊……"],["曾委員銘宗：什麼假消息？"],["陳院長建仁：是錯假消息。"],["曾委員銘宗：絕對是真消息、真消息。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，那個是我們疾管署當時都還沒有……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，不能隨便指定它是假消息，事實證明它是真的。"],["陳院長建仁：這是錯假消息，真的是錯假消息，當時是疾管署他們為了要採購疫苗所講的……"],["曾委員銘宗：怎麼會假消息？事後證實是真消息。"],["陳院長建仁：那個是錯假消息然後被剪接的……"],["曾委員銘宗：真消息。"],["陳院長建仁：被貴黨的議員剪接的消息……"],["曾委員銘宗：真消息。"],["陳院長建仁：這是假消息。"],["曾委員銘宗：好，院長，第二點，為什麼衛福部還沒有通過疫苗的審查，高端知道一定會通過？一路綠燈，一路綠燈。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有一定會通過，這也是錯假消息……"],["曾委員銘宗：還錯假，真的啊！"],["陳院長建仁：你怎麼會一路通過？我們當時有3家廠商……"],["曾委員銘宗：他說一路開綠燈啊！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有一路開綠燈。"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，你有沒有看過他的錄音帶？一路開綠燈啦！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我可以講嗎？"],["曾委員銘宗：講啊！"],["陳院長建仁：好。在一個疫苗研發的過程當中，一定要通過動物實驗、臨床一期、臨床二期，而且這些東西都是我們國內最好的廠商或是最好的大學在執行，執行的結果都發表在世界上一流的期刊，都顯示出來它有很好的效果，當它的效果出來以後，我們才會簽約。"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，我跟你講，你對資本市場不熟啦！高端的前身叫什麼？高端在證交所或者櫃買中心的紀錄是一家……"],["陳院長建仁：我們要看它試驗的結果，講科學啦！講科學啦！你以科學來講，不管它……"],["曾委員銘宗：我們不要講它惡名昭彰啦，它是有非常重大爭議的公司，你知不知道？它是一家有重大爭議的公司啦！"],["陳院長建仁：你這樣講是不公平的……"],["曾委員銘宗：公平啊！你去查紀錄，你去查紀錄！"],["陳院長建仁：不公平啊！好，我們來查紀錄……"],["曾委員銘宗：你要嘛！你要嘛找一家比較正派的公司。"],["陳院長建仁：它的動物實驗很成功，臨床一期很成功，臨床二期很成功，而且出來的效果比AZ還要來得好，然後真實世界的研究也和莫德納跟BNT一樣好喔，所以不要抹煞了這些真實的數據……"],["曾委員銘宗：好個鬼啊好，好個鬼啊！院長……"],["陳院長建仁：你講好個鬼就表示你不是專業啊，你講的東西不是正確的。"],["曾委員銘宗：你講你的專業，我講我的專業，你都沒回答我的專業。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，你剛才講的都……"],["曾委員銘宗：好，院長，民進黨說高端是疫苗國家隊，對不對？對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：我聽不清楚，你說？"],["曾委員銘宗：好，我再講一次。民進黨政府說高端是疫苗國家隊，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：當時我們徵求的疫苗國家隊一共有3隊，一個是聯亞，一個是國光，還有一個就是高端，而且他們在很嚴格的限制下，要把動物實驗的結果、臨床一期、臨床二期提出來才能夠做，這就是國家隊……"],["曾委員銘宗：好啦！你都承認高端是疫苗國家隊，既然是疫苗國家隊……"],["陳院長建仁：我們鼓勵所有的廠商投入疫苗研發，而不是去鼓勵政府去採購中國的疫苗……"],["曾委員銘宗：既然是疫苗國家隊，它的疫苗賣給哪個國家？院長，針對我的問題答……"],["陳院長建仁：而那個疫苗效價最差的，幸好沒有，幸好沒有採購，所以我們的國家隊是這樣來的。"],["曾委員銘宗：針對我的問題答，針對我的問題答，既然是疫苗國家隊，它的疫苗賣給哪個國家？它既然是疫苗國家隊，它的疫苗賣給哪個國家？中華民國只有唯一啊！它是什麼國家隊啊？只賣給民進黨政府啊！只賣給民進黨政府啦！"],["陳院長建仁：它在巴拉圭取得臨床三期，它在泰國取得臨床三期，它跟世界衛生組織有技術轉移的簽約，而且世界衛生組織也幫它做三期的臨床試驗，你是完全抹煞了科學的證據。"],["曾委員銘宗：我說產品啦！這個國家隊的產品只有賣給中華民國，只有賣給民進黨政府啦！"],["陳院長建仁：你完全抹煞科學證據！"],["曾委員銘宗：好，我沒有抹煞。再給你講、再給你講，假設高端是疫苗國家隊……"],["陳院長建仁：有，你看看，世界衛生組織要花三十幾億去做臨床實驗耶！"],["曾委員銘宗：高端是疫苗國家隊，對不對？那為什麼這一次的流感疫苗也是代理韓國的而已，沒辦法自行生產。號稱疫苗國家隊，你連流感的疫苗都沒辦法自己生產，你還代理韓國的耶！"],["陳院長建仁：我想委員你不要把高端疫苗跟流感疫苗，流感疫苗的製作比起高端疫苗的製作要來得簡單，問題是在這裡……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，好好回答我的問題，它連個流感疫苗都沒辦法生產了，還代理韓國的耶！這什麼國家隊啊！"],["陳院長建仁：我想你的想法，你不要聲東擊西啦……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，這是你的專業，你回答我的問題。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我回答你的問題就很簡單，高端的COVID-19疫苗是一個很好的疫苗，全世界都認定的，而且是世界衛生組織來技轉它要給其他的國家使用的，然後世界衛生組織願意來做臨床三期的實驗，在3個國家來做……"],["曾委員銘宗：我還是那個問題，我還是那個問題，你既然是疫苗國家隊，連流感疫苗都沒辦法生產，還代理韓國的，這什麼國家隊啊！"],["陳院長建仁：然後真實世界的結果，肯定它的效果跟BNT還有莫德納是一樣好，比AZ好，而且比科興、比國藥還好，所以你如果要講……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，這什麼國家隊啊？這什麼國家隊啊？連個感冒疫苗都沒辦法生產了，連感冒疫苗都沒辦法生產，還代理韓國的，這什麼國家隊？"],["陳院長建仁：如果你要講國家隊，那我跟你講，在當時臺灣缺疫苗的時候，在野黨要求我們用中國的疫苗……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，針對我的問題答，既然高端是疫苗國家隊，連流感疫苗都沒辦法生產，還代理韓國的，什麼疫苗國家隊？什麼是疫苗國家隊？"],["陳院長建仁：所有的疫苗，全世界在做疫苗供應的時候都會……"],["曾委員銘宗：連流感疫苗都沒辦法做，還代理韓國的，什麼疫苗國家隊？什麼疫苗國家隊？"],["陳院長建仁：我們可以做，我們有能力做。"],["曾委員銘宗：什麼疫苗國家隊？"],["陳院長建仁：委員你這樣重複沒有意思嘛！像鸚鵡一樣沒意思。"],["曾委員銘宗：好，高端股價從2020的27元一路炒到2021年5月31日的417塊，後來一路下跌，昨天收盤是68.4元，院長，有多少散戶損失慘重都打電話到辦公室抗議，說蔡政府……"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才已經跟……"],["曾委員銘宗：蔡政府……"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才已經跟委員講過了，所有疫苗在研發的過程當中……"],["曾委員銘宗：從27塊漲到417……"],["陳院長建仁：新藥研發本來就是……"],["曾委員銘宗：多少散戶受害？院長知不知道？"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["曾委員銘宗：可以啊！但這不是你的專業！"],["陳院長建仁：所有新藥的研發的股市都是上上下下，當它臨床實驗成功的時候……"],["曾委員銘宗：上上下下沒有這樣啦！"],["陳院長建仁：有啦！你就看莫德納和BNT就好啦！"],["曾委員銘宗：我是沒時間跟你說內線交易你知道嗎？你剛才……"],["陳院長建仁：內線交易我剛才講了，有內線交易我們已經查了，而且我們已經……"],["曾委員銘宗：查個鬼啦查！"],["陳院長建仁：查了啊！"],["曾委員銘宗：那要等喔！"],["陳院長建仁：我們已經查了，而且已經判刑了。"],["曾委員銘宗：等改朝換代再來查，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝曾委員。","接下來請林委員俊憲質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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請院長陳院長請主委好院長好其實我看你答得不錯我問的問題你全部可以答放心我不會為難你"},{"start":56.055,"end":83.39,"text":"第一個羅志正委員的不雅的影片已經鑑定完成什麼事要公布委員這好像跟今天的議題沒有關係不過我可以跟你講這件事情已經進入了司法調查我們行政院完全支持也希望我們檢調單位能夠盡速查明真相這影片是不是偽造變造"},{"start":84.895,"end":104.407,"text":"我們尊重檢調的調查的結果調查結果是不是偽造變造那院長什麼時候公布選後再公布對不對我們會尊重司法獨立司法你想不要檢調一題你不公布就是戰斧借血"},{"start":105.182,"end":128.246,"text":"你同不同意不同意我想在檢調的調查過程當中你的立場我可以理解都要很審慎那你的立場當然也是會這樣子質詢我啊我是覺得很正常啊但是這個是不同意沒關係讓2300萬民眾去做出公斷好另外盧志政另外一個影片跟總統對話那這個"},{"start":133.151,"end":149.848,"text":"整個錄音檔外流到底誰偷錄這個影片這個也正在偵查當中還在偵查當然啦會不會是羅志正自己錄就是他們兩個對話這是你個人的猜測那你認為誰錄"},{"start":152.611,"end":157.736,"text":"高度懷疑,就是奴製政經度院長,院長你不要等閒視之啊亞瑟您跟蔡總統的對話也被錄了這有可能啊一個國會的議員跟總統的講話都被錄音那您"},{"start":179.514,"end":179.534,"text":"國安問題"},{"start":208.834,"end":208.854,"text":"一個國會議員：總統對話"},{"start":212.267,"end":240.878,"text":"被錄音被流露出來或許明天就公布你跟總統的對話這是國安的問題這涉及到國家安全我同意這是國安的問題但是我跟你報告過了我們最重要的就是要讓檢調來以科學的方法還有很審慎的來看看有沒有是偽造變造等等所以這是不是要時間委員我們可以信口開河隨便講嗎當然不可以嘛"},{"start":241.318,"end":267.833,"text":"這就是為什麼檢調要審慎調查的原因我不是說你信口開河但是最重要的很多的人都沒有說什麼檢調馬上要公布這是不可能的事情嘛因為你事情的調查總是要時間國安很重要我們會要求檢"},{"start":270.473,"end":299.466,"text":"這很重要我也同意但是檢調會很審慎的來做相關的調查審慎到什麼時候而且很迅速一個禮拜兩個禮拜選後調查的時間我們會請這些單位一定要來加速的來辦理好反正你問不出你什麼名堂好另外賴總統候選人12月30號表示"},{"start":300.915,"end":310.043,"text":"為了釐清民眾對政府購買高端的疑慮政府要公布合約為什麼時間過去了到現在還不公布"},{"start":310.896,"end":332.671,"text":"好 這個理由我剛才已經有說明過了讓我再說明一下因為在當時我們跟高端簽訂這個合約的時候呢有五年保密的這一個條款那在政府視為簽約人的一方的時候呢我們當然要信守我們當時簽約的這一些約定那所以 但是政府呢我們曉得"},{"start":333.732,"end":334.113,"text":"院長你過去啊"},{"start":343.41,"end":371.388,"text":"蔡清的候選人今天講明天你就配合 行政院就宣布為什麼堵堵這件事情你不願意配合那因為這裡我們有條約的限制在政府需要維持政府的誠信如果政府沒有維持誠信的話院長你想不想高端公司高端的公司他的往來的對象幾乎只有蔡政府你知不知道知不知道他做生意的對象"},{"start":373.1,"end":396.819,"text":"我覺得這是你個人的看法什麼個人的看法你看他的銷售收入啊他做生意的收入啦沒關係你業務不熟啦我熟得很99.9%他的銷售收入都是只有蔡政府蔡政府他你只要他你他是你唯一"},{"start":403.447,"end":418.58,"text":"我剛才在報告的時候也跟兩位邱委員在講的時候就講得很清楚我們是也主張要公開而且我們也是積極的來跟高端來聯繫希望他能夠盡早來公布"},{"start":419,"end":419.3,"text":"我列給你聽啦"},{"start":449.731,"end":476.71,"text":"廠商說明已盡商業上最大努力而無法履歷者機關同意不對廠商追償以致付出企業價金那接下來呢就這樣子喔他已經最大努力就不追償價金啦剛才我的報告裡面已經講了如果可以歸屬於廠商院長我跟你講我當了一輩子的公務員我沒有看過這種合約"},{"start":478.909,"end":495.257,"text":"沒有看過這種合約顯示公平難怪你不敢公布啦你這樣講我不同意那很重要的一件事情是剛才我的剛才我已經講過嘛剛才我已經講過如果可歸屬於廠商的是要處罰的啊我沒有處罰的就處罰所以並不是沒有處罰你這樣講你是斷章取義啦沒有啊這合約啊"},{"start":507.808,"end":527.2,"text":"對阿我跟你講就是說我剛才也講過如果違反合約的時候是廠商的責任他是要受處罰的阿有阿有寫在另外一條阿所以所以我覺得阿就業公布就可以了啦什麼處罰阿你懂不懂阿好再請教你阿我懂喔這個疫苗阿我有幾個疑點好你說第一個"},{"start":531.001,"end":549.116,"text":"高端是民間公司為什麼未服務還沒有採購高端公司就已經知道採購價格他就知道要700塊以上欸那個是錯假消息啦那個700塊是錯假消息絕對是真消息"},{"start":550.558,"end":576.221,"text":"委員那個是我們疾管署當時都還沒有不能隨便指定他是假消息這是錯假消息真的是錯假消息當時是疾管署他們為了要要採購這個疫苗所講的那個是錯假消息然後被剪接的被對黨的議員剪接的消息這是假消息第二點"},{"start":577.662,"end":601.257,"text":"為什麼衛福部還沒有通過疫苗的審查高端知道一定會通過一路沒有一定會通過一路立登這也是錯假消息錯假真的啊你怎麼會一路通過我們當時有三家廠商他說一路開立登啊你沒看過他錄音帶一路開立登啦好委員我可以講嗎講啊好"},{"start":604.42,"end":606.98,"text":"你對資本市場不熟高端的前身叫什麼"},{"start":630.925,"end":660.288,"text":"高端在證交所或者櫃買中心的紀錄我們要看他實驗的結論講科學啦講科學啦你講科學來講不管他你這樣講是不公平的不公平啊你去查紀錄好我們來查紀錄他的動物實驗很成功動物實驗很成功臨床一期很成功臨床二期很成功而且出來的效果比AZ還要來得好"},{"start":660.768,"end":679.283,"text":"然後真實世界的這個研究也和摩德大跟BNT一樣好喔所以不要抹煞了這些真實的數據你現在講你講好的鬼就表示你不是專業啊你講的東西不是正確的啊你都沒回答我的專業沒有你剛才講的你立定黨說"},{"start":681.994,"end":697.993,"text":"你講說高端是疫苗國家隊對不對對不對我聽不清楚你說好再講一次民進黨政府說高端是疫苗國家隊對不對我想當時我們徵求的疫苗國家隊一共有三個隊"},{"start":698.894,"end":719.78,"text":"一個就是聯亞 一個就是國光 一個就是高端而且他們在很嚴格的限制下要把動物實驗的結果臨床一期 臨床二期提出來才能夠做那就是國家隊我們鼓勵所有的廠商投入疫苗研發而不是去鼓勵政府去採購中國的疫苗那個疫苗效價最差的 幸好沒有採購喔"},{"start":728.843,"end":731.185,"text":"他疫苗賣給哪個國家他疫苗賣給哪個國家衝華民國自己有唯一啊"},{"start":739.124,"end":758.143,"text":"他是什麼國家隊阿他在邁給民進黨政府阿他在巴拉圭取得臨床三期他在泰國取得臨床三期他跟世界衛生組織有這個技術轉移的這個簽約而且他世界衛生組織也幫他做三期的臨床實驗你完全抹煞了科學的證據你完全抹煞科學證據"},{"start":764.329,"end":786.683,"text":"好 再跟你講疫苗假設公關事疫苗國家對那為什麼這一次的流感疫苗你是代理韓國的疫苗 沒辦法自己生產你連流感的疫苗都沒辦法自己生產你還代理韓國的"},{"start":788.527,"end":796.656,"text":"我想委員你不要把高端疫苗跟流感疫苗流感疫苗的製作比起高端疫苗的製作要來得簡單我問提示在這裡代理韓國這什麼國家隊啊"},{"start":804.008,"end":806.949,"text":"我還是那個問題我還是那個問題你既然是疫苗國家隊連"},{"start":832.898,"end":835.124,"text":"都沒辦法相談 都沒辦法相談 都沒辦法相談 都沒辦法相談"},{"start":838.03,"end":864.705,"text":"這什麼國家隊還好啊這什麼國家隊連個感冒疫苗都要生產啦連感冒疫苗都要生產還帶你韓國的啦如果你要講國家隊那我跟你講在當時臺灣缺疫苗的時候在野黨要求我們用中國的疫苗真的我問你啦越南都還是疫苗國家隊連流感疫苗都沒辦法生產還帶你韓國的什麼疫苗國家隊什麼是疫苗國家隊"},{"start":865.325,"end":865.625,"text":"高端股價"},{"start":883.683,"end":888.508,"text":"從2020的27元一路炒到20215月31的417塊後來一路下跌昨天收盤是68.4元院長有多少散戶"},{"start":902.093,"end":910.976,"text":"展示慘重打電話到辦公室抗議蔡政府蔡政府蔡政府從20幾塊搞到41728塊都要閃出受害院長你知不知道"},{"start":922.568,"end":924.369,"text":"我們已經查了而且已經判刑了"},{"start":963.527,"end":963.708,"text":"好 謝謝鄭委員"}]}},{"id":"149078","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149078","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee689529091bfaf1f64a6826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50b8c13e2482b2d9d15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱臣遠","委員發言時間":"09:44:35 - 10:00:18","影片長度":"00:15:43","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":943,"end_time":"2024-01-09T10:00:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T09:44:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":235,"blocks":[["邱委員臣遠：（9時44分）謝謝主席，我們邀請陳建仁院長。"],["主席：陳院長請。"],["陳院長建仁：邱委員早。"],["邱委員臣遠：院長早安。今天火氣有點大，稍微冷靜一下。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，因為我覺得我們今天如果大家都來談高端……"],["邱委員臣遠：我想今天我們還是針對議題來討論，昨天其實我們立法院召開朝野協商，當時就針對高端合約是不是要公布，我想還是回到今天的重點。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["邱委員臣遠：當時我們協商的結論，我們是希望行政院在昨天下午的5點就提供相關今天專案報告的書面資料，我想這個不過分吧？"],["陳院長建仁：你們昨天才告訴我，那書面資料這麼厚，但是當時也……"],["邱委員臣遠：但是你知道我什麼時候才收到嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：以往所有的專案報告都是早上提出來。"],["邱委員臣遠：今天早上8點15分才送到我辦公室。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！以往的專案報告都是這樣。"],["邱委員臣遠：依法專案報告，請問一下，這個報告才11頁，你需要到今天早上8點15分？9點就要進行院會的專報……"],["陳院長建仁：所有的資料都需要再三查證……"],["邱委員臣遠：9點就要進行專案報告了，你8點15分才送到委員辦公室，請問一下這樣子是面對立法院、面對民意的態度嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們以往的專案報告都是在當天……"],["邱委員臣遠：院長，我建議你，你如果要繼續這樣子，用這樣的態度，這跟你平常真的不太一樣，如果你要繼續用這樣的態度，我想全體的國人都在看，今天大家對於高端的意見……"],["陳院長建仁：我們是以很審慎的態度……"],["邱委員臣遠：大家的質疑，看的是政府面對民意的態度，你面對中華民國最高民意殿堂，你今天這樣子的態度是對的嗎？11頁的報告，整個高端採購500萬劑的疫苗，花了國人40億的公帑，打了三百多萬劑，銷毀了……"],["陳院長建仁：保護了三百多萬人的生命。"],["邱委員臣遠：沒有錯，但是相關國際採購的疫苗，今天有相關已經可以使用的狀況下，你的EUA，你實際在推動的過程中有這麼多的疑慮，甚至後續股價的異常，這個都還沒有談到，今天光是針對一個採購合約的公開都沒有辦法來完成，整個40億的公帑銷毀了12億，總共一百多萬劑的疫苗，你今天給我11頁的專案報告，你還要拖到早上8點15分才要送到我辦公室，這是對的嗎？這是你面對民意的態度嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：以往專案報告都是這樣。"],["邱委員臣遠：如果你今天繼續這樣下去，我可以告訴你，今天這個專案報告、今天這個臨時會等於是白開了，全體的國人都在看，為什麼？因為今天的結論就是你們不願意公開，你告訴我因為高端董事會不同意……"],["陳院長建仁：我們講得很清楚嘛！"],["邱委員臣遠：你們還在溝通、還在要求，但是我必須告訴你，難道政府完全對它沒有約束力嗎？難道完全都沒有辦法要求嗎？這個案子不是1天、2天，你的合約不能公開是因為價格的問題、商業的問題、保密的問題，我都瞭解，我是海外臺商出身，我非常清楚，但是那是在疫情期間，當時市場上有相對競爭的時候，但是疫情解封到現在已經一年多了、已經一年多了，很多的國家也陸續有公開……"],["陳院長建仁：當時的合約是簽5年。"],["邱委員臣遠：而且目前國內的民意……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你沒有給我講話的機會。"],["邱委員臣遠：國內的民意大家是希望公開的……"],["陳院長建仁：當時簽約是5年保密，所以政府要維持政府的誠信。"],["邱委員臣遠：5年保密，那這中間不能溝通嗎？為什麼現在有六成的民意希望政黨輪替？我今天不想在這邊講政治，但是我希望你很正視這個問題，我可以告訴你，在政治上的立場，你不公開對你們是比較傷啦！老實說是這樣子啦！可是今天你的態度讓我非常的失望……"],["陳院長建仁：賴副總統說要公開，政府也要公開，但是政府必須要維持誠信。"],["邱委員臣遠：我告訴你程序是什麼，你今天包含法務部在105年的函釋就有提到「得標廠商投標單、清單載有投標者投標（履約）內容，乃民眾監督履約之工具，尚非得為拒絕申請政府資訊之理由。」這個部分很清楚啦！其實如果涉及跟民眾相關權益有關的，你是可以要求它的啊！法務部已經函釋啦！難道完全對高端公司都沒有相關的約束力？今天老實講，難道一間公司用人民的納稅錢來做這個疫苗採購、國產疫苗的發展、國產疫苗的開發，我們都支持，這個是整個國家的戰略物資、國家安全……"],["陳院長建仁：並不是這樣喔！"],["邱委員臣遠：這個我們都同意，但是過程大家可以這樣子嗎？你先告訴我，為什麼沒有辦法要求它公開？你能不能在這邊具體承諾到底什麼時候要公開？"],["陳院長建仁：我講過了嘛！賴副總統主張要公開，我們政府也主張要公開，但是因為政府是簽約雙方的一方，需要維持簽約的保密協定，但是已經努力的來跟高端講，請它來公開……"],["邱委員臣遠：它到底不公開的主要原因是什麼？你們溝通的內容、溝通的細節、溝通的結果，你可不可以跟國人在這邊簡單報告？為什麼它不公開，它的理由是什麼？價格不是都已經公開了嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：它需要經過董事會的同意，它需要召開董事會。"],["邱委員臣遠：841塊一劑嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：它需要召開董事會來決定。"],["邱委員臣遠：開個董事會有這麼困難嗎？你們不能積極的要求、積極的來溝通嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：那就要問高端。所以我是覺得……"],["邱委員臣遠：所以今天給國人的感覺就是行政院、衛福部、高端，大家在互相甩鍋，雙面手法嘛！拖過去嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有要拖，你這樣子是錯假的，這是錯的。"],["邱委員臣遠：什麼時候開個董事會這麼困難？立法院臨時會都可以開了，各黨朝野大家現在……"],["陳院長建仁：在立法院也……"],["邱委員臣遠：大家都可以來開會了，為什麼高端不行？"],["陳院長建仁：在立法院也召開過。"],["邱委員臣遠：為什麼高端不行？為什麼……"],["陳院長建仁：你要給我講話嗎？"],["邱委員臣遠：好。"],["陳院長建仁：立法院也召開了調閱小組的委員會，所有高端的疫苗，大家也在那個小組裡面有看過了，而且監察院也調過這個資料，檢調單位也有這個資料，所以這一件事情……"],["邱委員臣遠：沒錯啊！63案簽結。"],["陳院長建仁：如果需要調查的時候，為了全民的健康，我們當然需要這樣做……"],["邱委員臣遠：63案簽結，但是你們資訊就不公開啊！"],["陳院長建仁：當時我們有保密協定在，政府有負責保密的誠信的態度……"],["邱委員臣遠：你就繼續保密吧，我建議你繼續保密，你看國人會怎麼看今天執政黨處理這件事情。"],["陳院長建仁：我們現在已經有在溝通了，我們現在已經溝通，和高端……一起來公開……"],["邱委員臣遠：政治的核心在執行力，成功的人找方法，失敗的人找藉口……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有找藉口，完全沒有找藉口！"],["邱委員臣遠：我想如果你要用這樣的態度來面對民意，院長，我不想跟你在這邊口舌之爭，但是你今天這樣子的態度，讓我非常的失望，從今天行政院你們的聯絡人告訴我們的原因，為什麼今天早上才送到辦公室，因為長官說沒有辦法提供，昨天沒有辦法提供。請問這是哪一位長官？"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有說沒有辦法提供。"],["邱委員臣遠：哪一位長官？"],["陳院長建仁：我要跟委員講，我們昨天開會開到了晚上的時候，還在準備這些……"],["邱委員臣遠：所以你們還是要互相套招，然後11頁的……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有套招，你這一句話……"],["邱委員臣遠：那我問你，為什麼11頁你要給我搞1天？"],["陳院長建仁：所有的資料都要比對……"],["邱委員臣遠：請問你裡面有什麼資訊內容？"],["陳院長建仁：所以你這樣講是不合理的說法……"],["邱委員臣遠：什麼叫不合邏輯？"],["陳院長建仁：因為裡面所有的資料要一一查證……"],["邱委員臣遠：你今天這樣子面對中華民國立法院最高民意殿堂，你11頁的總共40億的公帑，難道1頁就占了4億元相關的公帑，是這樣子來計算嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當時高端……"],["邱委員臣遠：我告訴你啦，今天民進黨在國會實質過半啦，今天你們所有調閱的小組、所有相關提供的資料都是遮蔽，遮蔽至少三分之一以上啦，相關重要資訊都遮蔽，這要怎麼審查？你告訴我！只要不同意的全部都透過表決把我們封殺掉……"],["陳院長建仁：剛才也提到所有資料在國外公布的時候，重要的訊息……"],["邱委員臣遠：你們民進黨還有臉叫國人讓你們實質過半？實質過半就是實質護航啦！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，幸好是國會過半啦，如果照當時，當時貴黨就主張不要開發國內的疫苗，要開始……"],["邱委員臣遠：我們什麼時候說不用開發國內疫苗？我在這邊質詢，你去調資料，我每次質詢高端，我第一件事就是說我們支持國產疫苗發展，不要亂扣帽子！"],["陳院長建仁：當時有多少在野黨……"],["邱委員臣遠：不要亂扣帽子！"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有，扣帽子是你啊！不是我啊！"],["邱委員臣遠：扣你什麼帽子？你今天這個11頁的報告，你不是早上8點15分才送來嗎？這合理嗎？你給我45分鐘看，我要怎麼質詢？"],["陳院長建仁：是，但是我們所有專案報告，以往送來的時間都是在報告的當時送過來的。"],["邱委員臣遠：什麼叫當時送過來？這個案子是今天才出來的嗎？這已經兩年多了，大家都在關心，社會高度關注，11頁的報告，你今天8點15分才送來？"],["陳院長建仁：但是你要求這個報告，是昨天才做決定的。"],["邱委員臣遠：昨天我們朝野協商，民進黨黨團也同意，希望5點，我本來還希望你們中午，昨天5點你們就要送過來，你們沒有送過來。"],["陳院長建仁：你是昨天才決定的，我們昨天忙到晚上11點才完成。"],["邱委員臣遠：我今天早上7點就到辦公室等你們的報告，我還要等到8點15分，我今天院會第一個簽到。"],["陳院長建仁：我們昨天晚上忙到11點才把這個報告給完成，所以委員你講的，我沒辦法同意……"],["邱委員臣遠：我可以告訴你，院長，你的報告結論就是不公開……"],["陳院長建仁：要公開。"],["邱委員臣遠：全部以高端董事會的決議為主，只要它不同意，你就沒有辦法公開，你對它完全沒皮條，國人的訴求，你沒有辦法回應，簡單來講就是這樣子，今天給我們的結論就是這樣子，請問一下，我們在這邊質詢，我們這樣有意義嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想……"],["邱委員臣遠：法務部105年的函釋就講得很清楚了，政府是可以去要求的，如果你什麼事情都要推給民間，這樣子國人能夠接受嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：政府需要講誠信。"],["邱委員臣遠：而且這個相關資訊，如果今天是在疫情緊繃的期間，它有國際上採購、商業秘密、價格之間的競爭，我們都同意，今天解封已經一年多了，國人有知的權利，而且這件事情是賴清德副總統，也是民進黨總統候選人在總統辯論會上面，他也主張的。"],["陳院長建仁：當時簽約的時候，就是5年的保密協定……"],["邱委員臣遠：今天你是不是也應該回應民意？如果你們今天要用這樣的態度……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我可以回答嗎？"],["邱委員臣遠：你請說。"],["陳院長建仁：委員你說我們要尊重合約，我們合約當時簽訂的就是5年的保密協定、保密條款，所以我們是應該要遵照這個5年保密條款的方式來進行。"],["邱委員臣遠：好，那你就繼續保存5年，然後資料再繼續封存30年！"],["陳院長建仁：但是我剛才講得很清楚……"],["邱委員臣遠：你看看全體國人的感受是怎麼樣，今天高端到最後銷毀這麼多劑，甚至很多國際的認證，到日本還要去補打，這是國人實際的感受，我們不想去污名化，但是這是事實。包含相關的股價，我們一再……"],["陳院長建仁：高端的疫苗我剛才已經報告得很清楚，真實世界的數據出來，它和BNT、莫德納是一樣好的保護，當時就是因為有很多人在抹黑高端，讓很多可以打高端減少副作用的人沒有，然後偏偏來鼓勵說要打科興、打國藥，結果科興、國藥的免疫原性、它的抗體產生的比例是所有疫苗最低的，比AZ還低。"],["邱委員臣遠：我能理解。"],["陳院長建仁：高端是最高的。"],["邱委員臣遠：涉及國家安全我們都同意……"],["陳院長建仁：所以當時我們去分析打高端以後，打高端的人他的保護作用跟BNT和莫德納是一樣……"],["邱委員臣遠：國產疫苗本來就是戰略物資，本來就是國家安全的重要戰略物資，我們都理解，但是……"],["陳院長建仁：但是高端被抹黑以後很多人不敢打高端，害死了很多人。"],["邱委員臣遠：但是高端的整個過程、國人的疑慮、採購的金額、相關合約的內容、甚至股價的異常波動，中間有沒有委託中資公司「丘以思」來做三期臨床試驗，這些都是國人需要瞭解的，但是幾次的報告沒有辦法講清楚、說明白。"],["陳院長建仁：臨床試驗的結果早就出來了……"],["邱委員臣遠：到了昨天協商要開臨時會，你的報告還要早上8點15分才送到立法院！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你這講得都不對。"],["邱委員臣遠：我又不對，你都對！"],["陳院長建仁：我就講，動物實驗的結果早就發表了啊！臨床一期的結果早就出來了啊！"],["邱委員臣遠：我現在在告訴你高端合約的解密，相關的效力，我們沒有在跟你質疑效力，我從頭到尾都沒有跟你質疑疫苗效力……"],["陳院長建仁：真實世界的效果也出來了。"],["邱委員臣遠：你不要再聲東擊西了，院長！不要這樣子，好不好？我現在是跟你講今天專報的內容，相關合約採購的目標什麼時候要公布？什麼時候高端能夠取得共識？什麼時候能讓國人有知的權利？這才是今天專報的重點，我沒在跟你討論疫苗的效力，我拜託一下！"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才講過了，我們正在請高端儘快地公布啊！"],["邱委員臣遠：你剛剛還在糾正台上的委員。"],["陳院長建仁：我們希望高端能很好地回應啊！"],["邱委員臣遠：我現在聽起來，合約是不可能公布了啦！至少在今天沒有結論啦！"],["陳院長建仁：這是你的講法。"],["邱委員臣遠：至少在今天沒有結論，我這樣聽起來啦！我希望你們繼續去要求，這個法務部的函釋，我希望你們仔細去看，你們用這個函釋是不是能對高端公司進行相關的要求。","另外一個部分，我們還是一再強調，我們會支持政府的本土生技產業，但是我們不希望有人利用這樣的正當性，趁機哄抬股價，我們不希望有人在這中間牟取不當的利益。高端股價的問題，從30塊附近漲起，在短短一年半就暴漲逾13倍，2021年5月更衝上了417元，尤其政府高層多次不避嫌，在高端股跌停的時候還出面呼籲國產疫苗要有信心，甚至帶頭打高端，我想這個部分是不是能請院長解釋相關的股價異常波動上，有沒有相關的問題。"],["陳院長建仁：委員是專家，我跟你講，全世界……"],["邱委員臣遠：不會啦！你比較專家啦！"],["陳院長建仁：如果你承認我是專家，全世界在發展疫苗的人，在發展的過程中，當動物實驗成功、臨床實驗成功的時候，那個股價就會一直上升，但是實驗失敗的時候就會下降，所以那個上升……"],["邱委員臣遠：但那個比例是正常的嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：你看莫德納、你看BNT的股價變化是怎麼樣，所以藥物的開發，本來就是會隨著開發的不同期程，成功的時候它的股價就會一直上升，這個是很正常的事情，所以不要懷疑它。那你如果講說，有沒有什麼涉及不法，實際上我們檢調單位已經查過，士林地檢署對於有一位專家審查委員洩密高端實驗好的結果給他的太太，結果被判刑了3個月，緩刑兩年，我想你也很清楚嘛！所以我們對於所有這些不法的事情，都有在查證、都有在偵辦，所以這一件事情很重要，而且在立法院衛環委員會實際上他們也有調閱相關的資料，你說相關的資料在當時要提供說明，也提供說明，開了這麼多的次會議、調閱小組開了這麼多次的會議，也看了合約，結果當時怎麼會沒有意見？現在選舉到了，又再來吵這個事情。"],["邱委員臣遠：意見都很多啦！只是都會被民進黨在國會直接表決封殺掉。沒關係，院長，我剩下30秒，我在這邊還是誠懇地呼籲，我希望你們用謙卑的態度來面對民意。"],["陳院長建仁：我們一向謙卑。"],["邱委員臣遠：民意既然想要公開，希望國人有知的權利，包括賴副總統也講了，我希望你們儘速、儘速、愈快愈好。"],["陳院長建仁：我們會愈快愈好。"],["邱委員臣遠：高端的問題，我這邊再提點，包含合約採購內容的公開、中間EUA的審查，甚至有沒有相關股價的異常波動，其實這個是國人相對關心的議題，我希望你們以嚴正的態度面對，謝謝！"],["陳院長建仁：我們一向很慎重在面對。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。","接下來請曾委員銘宗質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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我們邀請陳建仁院長陳院長請"},{"start":29.13,"end":56.878,"text":"邱院長院長早安今天火氣有點大因為我覺得我們今天如果大家都來談高端我們還是針對議題來討論那昨天其實我們立法院召開朝野協商當時就針對這個高端合約是不是要公布我想還是回到今天的重點當時我們協商的結論我們是希望行政院在昨天下午的5點就提供相關今天專案報告的書面資料我想這個不過分吧"},{"start":57.778,"end":69.008,"text":"對 你們昨天才告訴我 那你那個數據資料這麼獲益吧但是你知道我們什麼時候才收到嗎今天早上8點15分才送到我辦公室對 那依法的專案報告請問一下 這個報告才11頁你需要到今天早上8點15 9點就要進行院會的專案報告 9點就要"},{"start":82.459,"end":101.355,"text":"進行專案報告了你8點15才送到委員辦公室請問一下這樣子是面對立法院面對民意的態度嗎我想這個院長我建議你好你如果要繼續這樣子用這樣的態度這跟你平常真的不太一樣如果你要繼續用這樣的態度我想全體的國人都在看"},{"start":101.795,"end":120.112,"text":"今天大家對於高端的意見大家的質疑看的是政府面對民意的態度你面對中華民國最高民意殿堂你今天這樣子的態度是對的嗎11月的報告整個高端採購500萬劑的疫苗花了國人40億的公帑"},{"start":122.08,"end":147.667,"text":"消毀了300多萬人的生命沒有錯但是相關國際採購的疫苗今天有相關已經可以使用的狀況下你的EUA你的實際在推動的過程中這麼多的疑慮甚至他後續的股價的異常這個都還沒有談到今天光是針對一個採購合約的一個公開都沒有辦法來完成"},{"start":148.107,"end":164.41,"text":"整個40億的公帑銷毀了12億總共100多萬劑的疫苗你今天給我11頁的專案報告你還要拖到早上8點15才送到我辦公室這是對的嗎這是你面對民意的態度嗎如果你今天繼續這樣下去我可以告訴你"},{"start":164.89,"end":188.889,"text":"今天這個專案報告今天這個臨時會等於是白開的全體的國人都在開為什麼因為今天的結論就是你們不願意公開你告訴我因為高端董事會不同意你們還在溝通還在要求但是我必須告訴你難道政府完全對他們沒有約束力嗎難道完全都沒有辦法要求嗎這個案子不是一天兩天你的合約不能公開是因為價格的問題商業的問題保密的問題"},{"start":190.43,"end":209.001,"text":"我都了解我是海外台商出身我非常清楚但是那是在疫情期間當時市場上有相對競爭的時候但是疫情解封到現在已經一年多了已經一年多了很多的國家也陸續的公開而且目前國內的民意國內的民意大家是希望公開"},{"start":210.962,"end":214.604,"text":"所以政府要維持政府的戰線政府也要公開但是政府必要維持誠信我告訴你誠信是什麼你今天包含法務部在105年的韓誓這邊就有提到"},{"start":240.92,"end":266.887,"text":"得標的廠商投標單清單載有投標者投標履約的內容乃民眾監督履約之工具尚非為拒絕申請政府資訊之理由這個部分很清楚啦其實如果涉及跟民眾相關權益有關的你是可以要求大家法務部已經含釋了難道完全對高端公司都沒有相關的約束力難道一間公司用今天老實講用人民的納稅權來做這個疫苗採購"},{"start":268.747,"end":269.088,"text":"我想過了嘛"},{"start":288.042,"end":308.275,"text":"賴副總統主張要公開我們政府也主張要公開但是因為政府是簽約雙方的一方需要維持這個簽約的保密協定但是已經努力的來跟高端講請他來公開他到底不公開的主要原因是什麼你們溝通的內容溝通的細節溝通的結果你可不可以跟國人在這邊簡單報告"},{"start":309.836,"end":331.588,"text":"為什麼他不公開?他的理由是什麼?價格不是都已經公開了嗎?840億塊一季嗎?他需要召開董事會來決定開個董事會有這麼困難嗎?那是要問高端嗎?要問高端所以我是覺得所以今天給國人的感覺就是行政院衛福部高端大家在互相甩鍋雙面手法嘛拖過去嘛沒有要拖"},{"start":332.719,"end":360.869,"text":"什麼時候開個董事會這麼困難立法院臨時會都可以開了各黨朝野大家現在都可以來開會了為什麼高端不行立法院也召開過立法院也召開了這個調閱小組的委員會所有的高端的疫苗大家也在那個小組裡面有看過了監察院也調過這個資料"},{"start":362.629,"end":379.568,"text":"這一個檢調單位也有這個資料所以這一件事情是如果有需要調查的時候為了要全民的健康利益我們當然需要要這樣做但是呢當時我們有保密協定在保密協定政府有負責保密的"},{"start":380.809,"end":407,"text":"那你就繼續保密吧我建議你就繼續保密啊你看國人會怎麼看你們你看國人會怎麼看今天執政黨處理這件事情政治的核心在執行力啦成功的人找方法失敗找藉口我想如果沒有這樣的態度用這樣的態度來面對民意必須院長我不想跟你在這邊口舌之爭但是你今天的這樣子的態度讓我非常的失望從你們今天行政院你們的聯絡人告訴我們的原因是什麼"},{"start":407.933,"end":428.784,"text":"為什麼今天早上才送到辦公室 因為長官說沒有辦法提供昨天沒有辦法提供 請問這是哪一位長官我們沒有說沒有辦法提供 我要跟你們講我們昨天開會開到了晚上的時候還在準備所以你們還是要互相套招 然後11月的沒有套招我不是讓我問你為什麼11月你要給我搞一天"},{"start":430.265,"end":430.465,"text":"當時高端"},{"start":450.806,"end":464.879,"text":"我告訴你啦今天民進黨在國會實質過半啦實質過半今天你們所有的道業小組所有的相關提供的資料都是遮蔽啦遮蔽至少三分之一以上啦相關的重要資訊都遮蔽這要怎麼審查你告訴我"},{"start":465.64,"end":477.702,"text":"只要不同意的全部都要透過表決幫我們封殺掉剛才你還有你們民進黨還有臉叫國會這樣不能讓你們實質過半實質過半就是實質護航啊沒有幸好是國會過半啦如果到當時呢當時在貴黨就主張說不要開發國內的疫苗我們什麼時候說不用開發國內疫苗我在這邊質詢你去調資料我每次質詢高端我第一件事情是說我們支持國產疫苗發展不要放靠報紙"},{"start":496.127,"end":514.546,"text":"當時有多少在野黨不要亂扣帽子扣帽子是你啊扣你什麼帽子你今天11月的這個報告你不是早上8點15分回來送來嗎這合理嗎你給我45分鐘看我要怎麼質詢我們所有的專案報告以往送來的時間都是在報告的當時送過來的"},{"start":515.367,"end":517.368,"text":"昨天晚上7點就到辦公室在等你們的報告我還要等到8點15"},{"start":538.939,"end":563.434,"text":"我們昨天晚上忙到11點才把這個報告給完成所以在委員你講的我會告訴院長你的報告結論就是不公開全部以高端董事會的決議為主只要他不同意你就沒有辦法公開你對他完全沒批調國人的訴求你沒有辦法回應簡單來講就是這樣子今天給我們的結論就是這樣子請問一下我們在這邊質詢我們這樣有意義嗎"},{"start":566.069,"end":571.394,"text":"我想法務部的105年的函式就講得很清楚了政府是可以去要求的"},{"start":572.13,"end":598.169,"text":"那如果你什麼事情都要推給民間那這樣子國人能夠接受嗎而且這個相關的資訊如果說今天是在疫情緊繃的期間他有國際上採購商業秘密價格之間的競爭這個我們都同意今天解封已經一年多了國人有資的權利而且這件事情是賴清德副總統也是我們的民進黨總統候選人他在總統辯論會上面他也主張的今天你是不是也應該來去回應民意"},{"start":601.852,"end":620.568,"text":"應該來去回應民意那如果你們要今天用這樣的態度委員你說我們要尊重合約那我們合約簽當時簽訂的就是5年的保密協定保密條款所以我們是應該要遵照這個5年的保密條款的方式來進行那你就繼續保存5年吧"},{"start":620.868,"end":623.61,"text":"但是我剛才講得很清楚啊我剛才講得很清楚我剛才講得很清楚我可以講話"},{"start":645.223,"end":656.813,"text":"高端的疫苗我剛才已經報告得很清楚真實世界的數據出來他是跟BNT跟莫德納是一樣好的保護當時就是因為有很多人在"},{"start":657.774,"end":676.662,"text":"某黑高端讓很多可以打高端減少副作用的人沒有然後偏偏來鼓勵說要打科興打國藥結果那個科興國藥我跟委員報告科興國藥的免疫原性它的抗體產生的比例是所有的疫苗最低的"},{"start":677.642,"end":685.727,"text":"我們理解涉及國家安全我們都同意涉及國產疫苗本來就是戰略物資本來就是國家安全的重要戰略物資我們都理解但是高端整個的過程國人的餘率採購的金額相關合約的內容"},{"start":698.053,"end":698.834,"text":"委員你這講的都不對的啦"},{"start":718.348,"end":733.564,"text":"我又不對 你都對好 我講啊 動物食業的結果早就發表了我們現在在告訴你高端合約的解密相關的效力我們沒有在跟你質疑效力喔我從頭到尾沒有在跟你質疑疫苗效力喔你不要在這個聲東擊西啦 院長"},{"start":736.087,"end":758.6,"text":"不要這樣子好不好我們現在跟你講今天專報的內容相關合約採購的目標什麼時候要公布什麼時候能夠高端取得共識什麼時候能讓國人有自的權利這才是今天專報的重點我沒有在跟你討論疫苗的效力我拜託一下你剛剛還在糾正這個台上的委員另外一個部分除了在這個我今天我這樣聽起來合約是不可能公布的啦"},{"start":764.623,"end":786.749,"text":"至少在今天沒有結論啦我這樣聽起來啦我希望你們繼續來去要求這個法務部的含釋我希望你們仔細去看你們來用這個含釋是不是能對高端公司來進行相關的要求另外一個部分我們還是一再強調我們會支持政府的本土生技產業但是我們不希望有人利用這樣的正當性趁機哄抬股價"},{"start":787.429,"end":801.599,"text":"我們不希望有人在這中間謀取不斷的利益那高端股價的問題從他30塊附近漲起在短短一年半就暴漲逾13倍2021年5月更衝上417元尤其政府高層多次不避嫌"},{"start":802.72,"end":829.122,"text":"高端股跌停的時候還出面呼籲國產疫苗要有信心甚至帶頭打高端我想這個部分是不是請院長你解釋相關的股價異常波動上有沒有相關的問題好 委員你是專家啦我跟你講全世界不會啦 你比較專家啦好 那你如果承認我是專家全世界在發展疫苗的人在發展的過程當中當動物實驗成功 臨床實驗成功的時候那個股價就會一直上升"},{"start":829.922,"end":857.133,"text":"但是呢如果實驗失敗的時候就會下降所以那個上升你看莫德納你看BNT的股價的變化是怎麼樣所以藥物的開發本來就是會隨著開發的不同期程它有成功的時候呢它就會股價會一直上升這個是很正常的事情所以不要懷疑它那你如果講到說有沒有什麼涉及不法實際上我們檢調單位已經查過這個士林的地檢署對於"},{"start":858.894,"end":873.711,"text":"有一位專家審查委員洩密這個高端實驗的好的結果給他的太太結果呢被判刑了三個月要緩刑兩年我想你也很清楚嘛所以我們對於所有這些不法的事情都有在查證喔都有在這個偵辦那"},{"start":876.4,"end":905.479,"text":"所以這一件事情很重要而且立法院在衛黃委員會實際上呢他們也有調閱相關的這個資料那你說相關的資料在當時要提供說明也提供說明開了這麼多次的會議調閱小組開了這麼多次的會議也看了合約結果當時怎麼會沒有意見現在選舉到了又再來吵這個事情意見都很多啦只是都會被民進黨在國會直接表決封殺掉沒關係院長我剩下30秒我在這邊還是誠懇的呼籲我希望你們"},{"start":906.4,"end":907.58,"text":"我希望你們嚴正的態度面對"},{"start":943.231,"end":943.253,"text":"好"}]}},{"id":"149077","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149077","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee6890dde41a0df76e5d5826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50c8de6a88177388315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱顯智","委員發言時間":"09:28:42 - 09:44:30","影片長度":"00:15:48","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":948,"end_time":"2024-01-09T09:44:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T09:28:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":44,"blocks":[["邱委員顯智：（9時29分）謝謝院長，我想請陳院長。"],["主席：陳院長，請。"],["陳院長建仁：邱委員好。"],["邱委員顯智：院長早。院長，剛剛聽您的報告，其中有一段針對高端疫苗合約公開的部分，你有提到事實上COVID-19疫苗完整合約不公開並非針對臺灣，而是全球各國皆然，還說包括BNT、莫德納、AZ、Novavax都有設這個保密條款，因為這個保密條款，所以沒辦法公開。","現在我想給你看一下，這張投影片的左上角有4個國家的語言，還有一個國徽，請問院長，你知道這是哪個國家嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：瑞士。"],["邱委員顯智：因為院長是公衛專家，應該非常清楚。這就是瑞士採購疫苗的所有合約，像這個例子是莫德納，通通都放在這一個網站上，一目瞭然，一點下去就看到。不只是瑞士，院長，你其實非常清楚，像歐盟採購疫苗的合約，不管是哪個廠牌的，全部也都公開在網路上，有的連MOU，然後也不只是一份合約，從MOU到正式簽約，到後續的修正，乃至於價錢，像AZ2.9歐元也放在這個上面。所以我說這整個疫苗採購的流程、法律文件，院長，這絕對不是像你們在第八頁寫的這樣，感覺好像全世界都沒有公開採購疫苗，現在是一個網路的時代、全球化的時代，全世界的國家，當然大部分的國家有可能沒有公開。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["邱委員顯智：但是像瑞士、像歐盟……"],["陳院長建仁：大部分國家沒有公開，你講對啦。"],["邱委員顯智：不是啦，院長，你在比的那一些國家，難道我們要跟那一些不公開的國家比嗎？那些不公開的國家，問題多嚴重？"],["陳院長建仁：絕大部分的國家都不公開。"],["邱委員顯智：那我必須要講，你看不管是瑞士也好，不管是歐盟也好，乃至於這些歐洲的國家，從頭到尾，從簽約MOU到後面的修正文件，乃至契約，都是大大方方公開。我真的必須要問，到底有什麼理由我們的政府做不到？高端疫苗採購的合約為什麼到現在還看不到？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：我想很簡單，我剛才已經說明得很清楚，世界上絕大部分的國家，不是你講的這一、兩個少數的國家，在採購疫苗的時候都有簽訂所謂的保密條款，那在保密條款之下，也不是只有我們對高端是這樣，對於AZ、莫德納、Novavax跟BNT都是這樣簽的啦。你看看在你剛才講的這些其他國家，也都是這樣簽訂，最主要的一個理由就是牽涉到商業機密，而且也牽涉到價格，你也曉得疫苗的價格會因為它供應的時間是在什麼時段，還有供應的量、供應的情形有所不同。"],["邱委員顯智：院長，我必須要講……"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們就有簽訂了保密的協定。"],["邱委員顯智：這個高端的價格早就已經講出來了嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：這是高端自己講出來的。"],["邱委員顯智：對啊！所以其他契約的必要之點有哪一些是要保密的？好啦！如果你認為要保密的，你可以去做一些處理嘛！譬如你在這邊故意寫完整合約不公開，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["邱委員顯智：好啊！那你完整合約不公開，你可以公開你認為有保密需要的啊！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：有啊！"],["邱委員顯智：去做一些處理啊！那你現在不是，現在是除了這個很基礎的契約大家看不到之外，即便你認為有保密，你把它處理掉……"],["陳院長建仁：我們政府的立場……"],["邱委員顯智：那從前面到後面的文件通通都沒有，而且院長……"],["陳院長建仁：我們政府的立場也是要公開，也是主張公開，但是需要雙方同意。"],["邱委員顯智：賴清德副總統已經講得非常清楚了，人民有知的權利啊！"],["陳院長建仁：是，我同意。"],["邱委員顯智：這個疫苗採購不是一塊、兩塊欸！不是一萬塊、兩萬塊欸！"],["陳院長建仁：沒錯。"],["邱委員顯智：是這麼貴的一個東西，那人民的血汗錢，人民有知的權利，應該要公開高端疫苗的合約嘛！如果你認為有哪一個部分是非得要保密不可的，你也可以去做相應的處理，就像其他的國家一樣嘛！其他的國家公開的時候，他也去做處理啦！那沒有道理……"],["陳院長建仁：其他的公開要處理，你答對了。"],["邱委員顯智：到現在已經這麼久了，還連一個影子都看不到！"],["陳院長建仁：因為在保密協定的條款規範之下，我們如果要公開需要得到雙方的同意，我們也主張應該要公開，但是這個公開需要雙方的合議，所以我們政府也努力來跟高端公司協商，希望它也能夠來公布。"],["邱委員顯智：那你要跟高端協商嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["邱委員顯智：那請教院長，高端的合約到底何時會公開，請院長給我一個具體的時間點。"],["陳院長建仁：高端何時會公開的話，高端它有內部的……"],["邱委員顯智：何時啦？"],["陳院長建仁：內部的程序。這個內部的程序，他們也許需要經過董事會的討論，所以我們沒有……"],["邱委員顯智：董事會什麼時候要開？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：需要看對方來確定。那最重要的一件事情，我想可能委員你也很清楚，在雙方如果能夠達到協議的這個情況下，我們當然是希望他們越早公開越好。"],["邱委員顯智：院長完全無法理解啦！我就講了，你可以去比較看看，其他的國家放在網站上面這麼清楚的事情，竟然……"],["陳院長建仁：大部分的……"],["邱委員顯智：到現在已經過了這麼久……"],["陳院長建仁：只有少數的國家這樣做。"],["邱委員顯智：還在董事會。那它有開董事會嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：他們……"],["邱委員顯智：有嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：現在我們發函給他們……"],["邱委員顯智：你們有去看嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：請他們能夠給我們最好的答復。"],["邱委員顯智：所以也沒辦法有一個時間點嘛？今天院長的答復就是說也沒辦法有一個時間點，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：這個需要雙方得到同意。"],["邱委員顯智：那如果是不同意的話，不就永遠都不公開？"],["陳院長建仁：如果有這樣的一個情況發生的時候，那我們當然就需要再考慮說它不公開的時候……"],["邱委員顯智：那你要怎麼辦？"],["陳院長建仁：對，在這個情況……"],["邱委員顯智：對啊！"],["陳院長建仁：很重要的，你剛才講的相關部分要遮蔽等等，這個在大院的調閱小組調查的時候，我們就有這樣的資訊公開……"],["邱委員顯智：院長，這樣講真的……"],["陳院長建仁：而且大院已經開過二十幾次會議……"],["邱委員顯智：臺灣社會真的聽不下去。"],["陳院長建仁：也都看過這個資料了。"],["邱委員顯智：真的聽不下去啦！"],["陳院長建仁：你就是立法院已經開過調閱小組的會議，也看過這些資料，就像你說的就是有遮蔽的部分就遮蔽。已經看過了……"],["邱委員顯智：賴副總統就講了嘛！人民有知的權利啊！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：我也同意，然後我們政府也同意，但是政府需要講求誠信……"],["邱委員顯智：你今天又告訴大家，兩手一攤說要雙方協商、要董事會同意。"],["陳院長建仁：委員你是法律專家，你要一個政府講……"],["邱委員顯智：萬一它董事會不同意的時候……"],["陳院長建仁：做不誠信的事情嗎？"],["邱委員顯智：那你也根本就沒有想要去處理這個問題嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：誠信是最重要的，我們政府簽約的嘛！我剛才已經講過，如果我們今天因為這樣而毀掉了政府的誠信，未來政府要採購任何的藥物跟疫苗都可能會被拒絕，這個對國人的健康是會有影響的啦！所以你是……"],["邱委員顯智：你講這個大家聽不下去，那其他……"],["陳院長建仁：你是法律專家，你也知道嘛！"],["邱委員顯智：其他一點下去就可以一目瞭然看到契約、合約的國家，難道它不會影響未來的採購嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：但這個一目瞭然是有一些遮蔽的部分啦！"],["邱委員顯智：講得聽不下去耶！"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得，你是律師，你很清楚啦！"],["邱委員顯智：那我來請教你……"],["陳院長建仁：這個契約簽了以後，我們是不是要互相信守、雙方要信守契約？政府要不要維持政府的誠信？當然要啊！"],["邱委員顯智：院長，那我想請教，就是高端的採購有沒有合法地落實決標的公告？它有沒有一個決標公告，你知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這個當然我們都是依法來辦理啦！"],["邱委員顯智：依法來辦理的話，依照政府採購法第一百零五條第一項第二款，以及這後面相關細則的規定的話，基本上應該是要有一個決標的公告。那我其實非常清楚地跟院長講……"],["陳院長建仁：剛才講過，我們有一個緊急採購的辦法先公布了。"],["邱委員顯智：緊急採……"],["陳院長建仁：我們是按照這個緊急採購的辦法來進行。"],["邱委員顯智：好，但是院長，即便是緊急採購，還是要做決標公告啊！你要有一個決標公告說你給這個廠商嘛！然後這個決標公告上面會有很多的資訊，而這個資訊包括，現在大家所爭議的，就是很多契約上面的內容……"],["陳院長建仁：我們有決標公告。"],["邱委員顯智：沒有，因為你沒有這個決標公告，我很明確地跟你講，因為你沒有這個決標公告，所以現在問題來了。"],["陳院長建仁：我們有決標公告。"],["邱委員顯智：你有決標公告？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["邱委員顯智：你有做，你確定嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是，我們確定有決標公告。"],["邱委員顯智：好，沒關係，這個會後我們再來確認。"],["陳院長建仁：所以你這樣講的就不對啦！你就說假消息啊……"],["邱委員顯智：不是，會非常清楚。"],["陳院長建仁：你就用假消息來打擊政府。"],["邱委員顯智：不是假消息，院長，你沒有做……"],["陳院長建仁：有決標公告……"],["邱委員顯智：你沒有做決標公告。"],["陳院長建仁：但是我們遮蔽了價格，我想不要用這一些似是而非的理由來打擊政府為了要保障人民健康所做的這一些決標的公告。我們已經有公告，而且有遮蔽價格……"],["邱委員顯智：院長，我現在在告訴你……"],["陳院長建仁：所以我剛才講的就是很對的……"],["邱委員顯智：你現在就是因為沒有做決標公告……"],["陳院長建仁：有決標公告。"],["邱委員顯智：你才會衍生出後面這些問題。"],["陳院長建仁：有決標公告。你現在還在講錯的訊息啊！"],["邱委員顯智：不是錯的訊息。"],["陳院長建仁：是錯的訊息。"],["邱委員顯智：因為你認為是緊急採購……"],["陳院長建仁：我想你們要講務實、你們講理性、你們講科學……"],["邱委員顯智：所以不需要決標公告嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：你完全反科學、不理性，也不務實啊！"],["邱委員顯智：沒有，院長……"],["陳院長建仁：我跟你講就有，我說有，你說沒有。"],["邱委員顯智：不需要、不需要，好，我們不需要再爭這個。"],["陳院長建仁：不，那你講的就不對嘛！"],["邱委員顯智：沒關係，這個是大家、社會可以來檢驗的，有或沒有……"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！我講的就是這樣。"],["邱委員顯智：我們不需要在這裡爭，那我是要……"],["陳院長建仁：所以你……有公告，你承認有公告嘛！"],["邱委員顯智：那我現在告訴你……"],["陳院長建仁：你承認有公告了，對不對？"],["邱委員顯智：你沒有公告啊！"],["陳院長建仁：有啊，有公告啊！"],["邱委員顯智：衛福部沒有公告啊！"],["陳院長建仁：有公告啊！你這樣就是在講假的、錯的消息啊！"],["邱委員顯智：你就是認為有決標、你認為說是緊急採購嘛！對不對？然後……"],["陳院長建仁：有公告、有決標公告！"],["邱委員顯智：緊急採購的話……"],["陳院長建仁：有決標公告！"],["邱委員顯智：即便是緊急採購，還是要去做決標公告，才能……"],["陳院長建仁：有決標公告！我已經講3次了！"],["邱委員顯智：沒關係，這個可以之後再……","我們這個是有一個客觀事實的嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對嘛！你就「講白賊」啊！"],["邱委員顯智：好，院長，我想請教，2個月前院長在國會指示說，宏泰公益信託針對中嘉交易案的部分是由做處分的NCC去做監管，而不是教育部；院長也在國會指示應該由NCC負責去做調查，釐清宏泰公益信託捐款的爭議。但是2個月過去了，院長，NCC到現在也沒有約詢相關單位去做調查，然後也沒有去向教育部調閱資料。另外，宏泰當初承諾說要5年15億做公益，現在時間已經快到了，才捐了7億，除非今年要捐8億，不然承諾就要跳票了。面對NCC擺爛、不作為，甚至公然違抗院長的命令，請問院長現在要如何處理？"],["陳院長建仁：我想NCC沒有擺爛，他們也積極在努力。今天我們的議題是在講高端合約，如果委員對宏泰公益信託這件事情還要有所質詢的話，會後我會提供書面的報告。你今天離題嘛！"],["邱委員顯智：不是啊！監督政府各項施政本來就是我的職責，你之前已經有指示……"],["陳院長建仁：但是今天我們的專題報告是有關高端的合約……"],["邱委員顯智：什麼叫做沒有擺爛！"],["陳院長建仁：那你現在要談NCC的部分，我說NCC沒有擺爛，我已經……"],["邱委員顯智：不是啦！院長，我自己是認為不應該這樣護航財團啦！"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有護航財團！"],["邱委員顯智：這很清楚嘛！它就要跳票了嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有護航財團！"],["邱委員顯智：如果沒有護航財團的話，這不是擺爛？"],["陳院長建仁：也沒有擺爛！"],["邱委員顯智：他們根本沒有去調教育部的資料啊！"],["陳院長建仁：也沒有擺爛……"],["邱委員顯智：他們也沒有約詢相關單位去處理……"],["陳院長建仁：完全沒有擺爛！這是你片面的講法！"],["邱委員顯智：你也跟它命令了啊！"],["陳院長建仁：這是你片面的講法！而今天的議題就是高端合約！"],["邱委員顯智：那我想問你嘛……"],["陳院長建仁：今天來講這個東西，你要資料，我後面補充給你。"],["邱委員顯智：我想問你，宏泰公益信託等於是騙了這一個行政處分嘛，那個行政處分是有附款的，這是幾百億的交易案，也承諾5年要捐15億，可是現在已經要跳票了，你做何處理啊？"],["陳院長建仁：我想通傳會現在正在做各式各樣的調查，有關爭議經濟部也提供了股權資料來進行分析，如果有違反相關負擔的情形，我們當然是依法處理，現在正在……"],["邱委員顯智：怎麼依法處理？他們根本連去調閱教育部的資料都沒有！"],["陳院長建仁：現在正在這個爭議當中……"],["邱委員顯智：2個月過去了！院長，你已經指示了，他們完全沒有處理啊！這不是護航財團，什麼是護航財團？"],["陳院長建仁：我想處理事情都有一定的程序、一定的過程，然後呢……"],["邱委員顯智：好，院長，我再舉一個例子，揭弊者保護法上個會期還有送進來……"],["陳院長建仁：這也不是今天的議題。"],["邱委員顯智：這個會期連送進來都沒有，在你主持的行政院，連送進來都沒有！永豐金這是很明顯的……"],["陳院長建仁：這也不是今天的議題啊！"],["邱委員顯智：它根本就是在阻撓這個揭弊者保護法！甚至對行政院、對時力黨團、對許多力推揭弊者保護法的人進行監控！院長……"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有進行監控。"],["邱委員顯智：院長，揭弊者保護法要再度跳票了嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，這一件事情我們已經在行政院召開了4次審查會，而且這方面我們法務部已經有在進行，所以我們並沒有跳票。"],["邱委員顯智：好，那什麼時候要送進來？只講送進來就好。不要再說社會沒有共識了！第9屆就送過了，對不對？光是你主持的行政院，什麼時候要送過來？院長，有一個時間點！"],["陳院長建仁：好，我請法務部長來回答。"],["邱委員顯智：院長，明年520之前有沒有可能送進來？"],["陳院長建仁：明年520？"],["邱委員顯智：是今年520。"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明，其實揭弊者保護法立法委員也有很多提案……"],["邱委員顯智：部長、院長，不要再去護航財團！"],["蔡部長清祥：如果院會願意排進去的話，我們很願意在會上來提供意見。"],["邱委員顯智：遙遙無期啦，遙遙無期！","院長可不可以承諾今年520……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有遙遙無期。"],["邱委員顯智：今年520之前？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有遙遙無期。只要這個法案我們審查通過、達到共識，一定會提出來。"],["邱委員顯智：第9屆就排過了！"],["陳院長建仁：我答應你一定會提出來。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱委員。","接下來請邱委員臣遠質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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那我想請陳院長陳院長請邱委員好 院長早"},{"start":31.102,"end":57.875,"text":"院長剛剛聽您的報告其中有一段針對這個高端疫苗的合約公開的部分那你有提到說事實上COVID-19疫苗完整合約不公開並非針對台灣而是全球各國接染然後還說包括BNT、莫德納、AZ、Nomavis都有設這個保密條款那因為這個保密條款所以沒辦法公開"},{"start":58.795,"end":69.56,"text":"那我想給你看一下 院長 這個左上角這個有四個國家的語言 然後有一個國徽那院長你知道這是哪個國家"},{"start":72.148,"end":99.187,"text":"瑞士因為院長是公會專家應該非常清楚那這個就是瑞士把他所有的採購疫苗的合約像這個例子這個是莫德納通通都放在這一個網站上一目了然一點下去就看到那不只是瑞士啊院長你其實非常清楚"},{"start":100.868,"end":124.862,"text":"像歐盟採購的這個疫苗的合約哪怕是哪個廠牌的全部也都公開在網路上包括像說有的是說這個連MOU然後呢這一個不只是一份合約從MOU到正式簽約到後來有可能他還會這個修正"},{"start":126.343,"end":155.498,"text":"那乃至於說你這個介紹像AZ2.9O也放在這個上面所以我說這整個疫苗採購的流程的法律文件啊院長這絕對不是像你們在第8頁寫這樣嘛感覺好像是說全世界都沒有公開這個採購疫苗現在是一個網路的時代全球化的時代全世界的國家當然"},{"start":156.533,"end":165.19,"text":"大部份的國家有可能沒有公開但是像瑞士 像歐盟大部份國家沒有公開 你講對齁不是啊 院長"},{"start":166.775,"end":186.895,"text":"你再比的那些國家難道是說我們要跟那些不公開的國家比嗎那個不公開的國家他的問題多嚴重那我必須要講啦你看這個不管是瑞士也好不管是說歐盟也好乃至於這些歐洲的國家那從頭到尾"},{"start":187.892,"end":190.233,"text":"我講很簡單我剛才已經說明很清楚"},{"start":210.458,"end":210.738,"text":"邱顯智"},{"start":233.602,"end":233.902,"text":"這個高端的價格"},{"start":254.787,"end":273.497,"text":"早就已經講出來了嘛這是高端自己講出來的那所以其他的契約的必要支點有哪一些是要保密的好啦 如果你認為說要保密的你可以去做一些處理嘛比如說你在這個地方的時候你在這邊故意寫說完整合約不公開"},{"start":274.377,"end":275.198,"text":"賴清德副總統已經講得非常清楚了"},{"start":304.119,"end":323.118,"text":"人民有知的權利啊是我同意這個疫苗的採購不是一勾兩勾勒不是一萬勾兩萬勾勒是這麼貴的一個東西那人民的血和錢人民有知的權利應該要公開這個高端的疫苗的合約嘛那如果你認為說"},{"start":325.421,"end":347.24,"text":"有哪一個部分是一個非得要保密不可的那你也可以去做相應的處理就像其他的國家一樣嘛其他的國家公開的時候他也去做處理啦那沒有道理是說到現在還這麼久了還連一個影子都看不到因為在這個保密協定的"},{"start":347.881,"end":349.361,"text":"你要跟高端協商嘛請教院長"},{"start":372.506,"end":388.214,"text":"高端的合約到底何時會公開請院長給我一個具體的時間點高端何時會公開的話這個高端它有內部的程序這個內部的程序呢他們也許需要經過董事會的討論所以我們沒有"},{"start":389.482,"end":414.252,"text":"董事會怎麼都要開來確定那最重要的一件事情我想可能委員你也很清楚在雙方如果能夠達到協議的情況下我們當然是希望他們越早公開越好你可以去比較看看其他的國家放在網站上面這麼清楚的事情大部分的只有少數的國家這樣做那他有開董事會嗎"},{"start":417.433,"end":443.224,"text":"有嗎?你們有去看嗎?所以沒辦法,也沒辦法有一個時間點嘛今天院長的答覆就是說也沒辦法有一個時間點這個需要雙方得到同意那如果不同意的話不就永遠都不公開那如果有這樣的一個情況發生的時候那我們當然就需要再考慮說他不公開的時候呢"},{"start":444.642,"end":462.977,"text":"那你要怎麼辦對 在這個情況這個很重要的在你剛才講的說相關的部分要遮蔽等等這個在大院的調閱小組調查的時候我們就有這樣的一個資訊公開而且大院已經開過20幾次的會議也都看過這個資料了你就是"},{"start":467.48,"end":495.283,"text":"昨天他已經開過調閱小組的會議 也看過這些資料就像你說的 就是有遮蔽的部分賴副總統就講了嘛 人民有知的權利啊我也同意 然後我們政府也同意但是政府需要講求誠信委員你是法律專家 你要一個政府做不誠信的事情嗎誠信是最重要的 我們政府簽約的我剛才已經講過 如果我們今天因為這樣而毀掉了政府的誠信"},{"start":495.868,"end":496.128,"text":"講聽不下去餒"},{"start":514.778,"end":517.599,"text":"這個當然是我們都是按照依法來辦理"},{"start":542.042,"end":558.341,"text":"依法來辦理的話依照政府採購法105條第一項第二款然後以及說這個後面的這個相關的細則的規定的話基本上應該是要有一個決標的公告那"},{"start":559.042,"end":561.065,"text":"但是院長即便是緊急採購還是要做絕標公告"},{"start":574.991,"end":600.987,"text":"你要有一個決標公告說你給這個廠商嘛然後這個決標公告上面會有很多的資訊那這個資訊包括上面現在大家所爭議的就是說很多契約上面的內容我們有決標公告啦沒有因為你沒有這個決標公告我很明確跟你講因為你沒有這個決標公告所以現在問題來了我們有決標公告你有決標公告是你有做 你確定嗎"},{"start":601.986,"end":617.955,"text":"是 我確定有絕標公告所以你這樣講的就不對啦你就說假消息啊你就用假消息來打擊政府啊有絕標公告但是我們遮蔽了價格我想齁 不要"},{"start":618.835,"end":634.127,"text":"用這一些事事而歸的理由來打擊政府這一個為了要保障人民的健康所做的這一些絕標的公告那我們已經有公告而且有遮蔽價格所以我剛才講的就是可惜了吧有絕標公告有絕標公告"},{"start":639.111,"end":667.605,"text":"你現在還在講錯的訊息啊不是錯的訊息啦是錯的訊息我想你們要講務實你們講理性你們講科學你完全反科學啊不理性啊也不務實啊我跟你講就有我說有你說沒有不需要不需要好我們不需要再講這個啦你講就不對嘛這個是大家社會可以來檢驗的對啊我講的就是這樣啊我們不需要你再講所以你有公告你承認有公告嗎那我現在告訴你說你承認有公告嗎"},{"start":668.425,"end":693.01,"text":"你沒有公告啊 有啊有公告啊 你問你沒有公告啊有公告啊 你看你就要講假的 錯的消息啊你認為說是緊急採購嘛 對不對有公告 有絕標公告 你覺得是緊急採購的話有絕標公告 還是要去做絕標公告有絕標公告 我已經講三次了沒關係 這個可以之後再來我們這個是有一個客觀的事實了嘛對嘛 你就說白菜啦 好啦"},{"start":693.737,"end":719.433,"text":"好 院長 那我想請教兩個月前 院長在國會也有指示說這個紅派公益信託針對這個宗家教育案的部分那是由這個做處分的NCCC做監管而不是教育部那院長也在國會指示說應該NCCC負責去做調查然後釐清紅派公益信託捐款的這個爭議但是呢 兩國會過去了 院長"},{"start":721.534,"end":733.486,"text":"NCC到現在也沒有約詢相關的單位去做調查然後也沒有向教育部去調閱資料那另外宏泰當初的承諾說要5年15億做公益"},{"start":734.957,"end":739.442,"text":"那請問陳院長面對NCC擺爛不作為甚至公然的違抗院長的命令請問院長現在要如何處理"},{"start":752.813,"end":772.827,"text":"我想NCC沒有擺爛NCC也積極在努力那今天我們的議題是在講高端合約如果委員你對於宏泰公益信託這件事情還要有所質詢的時候我會提供書面的報告本來監督政府各項的施政是我的職責嘛但是今天我們是專題報告是有關"},{"start":775.109,"end":782.535,"text":"高端的合約那你今天要談NCC的部分我說NCC沒有擺爛不應該這樣護航財團我們沒有護航財團我們沒有護航財團也沒有擺爛完全沒有擺爛這是你片面的講法"},{"start":798.627,"end":821.589,"text":"這是你片面的講法而今天的議題就是高端合約今天來講這個東西你要資料我後面補充給你紅帶公益信託那騙了等於是騙了這一個行政處分嘛那行政處分有付款的這是幾百億的交易案那也承諾說4年5年要捐15億嘛那現在已經要跳票了那你做何處理啊"},{"start":822.096,"end":844.65,"text":"我想通常會現在正在做各式各樣的調查有關的爭議那經濟部也提供了股權的資料來進行分析那如果有違反這個相關的負擔的這個情形的話我們當然是依法處理現在是在調查現在在根本他連續調閱教育部的資料連續做兩個月過去院長你已經指示了他完全沒有處理這不是護航財團什麼是護航財團"},{"start":846.271,"end":866.253,"text":"我想處理事情都有一定的程序一定的過程然後我再舉一個例子接避者保護法上個會期還有送進來這個會期連送進來都沒有在你主持的行政院連送進來都沒有永豐金這是很明顯的這也不是今天的議題啊接避者保護法"},{"start":867.915,"end":895.773,"text":"然後甚至對行政院．對實力黨團．對許多力推接避者保護法的人進行監控 院長我們沒有進行監控 接避者保護法要再度跳票了嗎沒有 我們這件事情已經在行政院已經召開了4次審查會而且我們法務部在這方面已經有在進行所以我們並沒有跳票那什麼時候要送進來 只講送進來就好不要再講說社會沒有共識了 第9屆都送過了"},{"start":897.838,"end":919.147,"text":"光是你主持的行政院什麼時候要送過來 院長有一個時間點明年520之前有沒有可能送進來今年520跟委員說明 其實街壁保護法立法委員有很多的提案如果院會願意排進去的話我們很願意在會上提供意見"},{"start":920.523,"end":921.283,"text":"好 謝謝邱委員接下來請邱委員呈言質詢"}]}},{"id":"15363","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15363","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a609406bd4ab89528cf19b5fa2f296a9353446d53a332764a535cb7644f0548915a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","type":"Full","date":"2024-01-09","start_time":"2024-01-09T08:29:59+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-01-09T15:53:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":26581,"委員發言時間":"08:29:59 - 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審查及療效評估的基準以供國內疫苗業者有所依循並且積極輔導其符合規範以確保專案核准之疫苗符合品質、安全還有療效的要求"},{"start":2476.365,"end":2505.743,"text":"前述基準當中規範COVID-19疫苗要取得EUA安全性部分必須要提供疫苗受試者至少達3000人以上的安全性資料此與國際法規單位審查要求是相當一致而療效部分則採用免疫橋接方式來作為審查國內疫苗通過EUA的療效基準亦即國內疫苗臨床所得的綜合抗體效價"},{"start":2506.533,"end":2536.091,"text":"必須要證明不劣於AZ疫苗才能夠取得EUA國際間對於以免疫橋接方式作為取得疫苗緊急使用授權的方式包括了向世界衛生組織在110年5月26日與各國討論以免疫橋接來評估COVID-19疫苗療效的可行性在會議中歐盟、韓國、英國皆表示支持這樣的一個概念"},{"start":2536.738,"end":2559.244,"text":"英國的MHRA和歐盟的EMA也分別在111年的4月14日和111年的6月23日核准了VanEva公司COVID-19疫苗其所採用的療效指標亦為VanEva疫苗和AZ疫苗的綜合抗體免疫橋接評估指標"},{"start":2561.427,"end":2585.559,"text":"韓國的MFDS在111年的6月29日核准SK Bioscience公司COVID-19疫苗GBP510其採用依據意為執行與AZ疫苗免疫原性比較之第三期臨床試驗結果高端公司依據COVID-19疫苗在"},{"start":2586.464,"end":2602.6,"text":"臺灣取得EUA應具備資技術性資料要求檢據了化學製造的管制、動物試驗及臨床試驗者資料在安全性部分根據大署重複劑量毒性試驗及大署生殖與發育毒性試驗"},{"start":2604.355,"end":2632.701,"text":"所獲得之會臨床資料顯示高端新冠肺炎疫苗對於人體並無特殊危害而第一期臨床試驗結果以5個microgram 15個microgram跟25個microgram的劑量分為3組各組15人總計45名20至49歲的健康人顯示安全性的事件發生率在各劑量組都相當大部分"},{"start":2633.203,"end":2660.081,"text":"不良事件都是輕度、中高劑量皆具有耐受性在擴大臨床第二期臨床試驗結果以3295名20歲以上的碩士者來接受至少一劑的15μg高端新冠肺炎疫苗及549名碩士者接受安慰劑之試驗結果不良反應主要為頭痛、頭暈、倦怠、腹瀉、嘔吐"},{"start":2661.84,"end":2685.706,"text":"肌肉痛注射部位疼痛放紅等無重大的安全疑慮在臨床試驗療效分析的結果顯示高端疫苗組和外部對照疫苗組AZ疫苗的原型株活病毒綜合抗體幾何平均效價比值GMTR的95%信賴區間下限為3.4倍大於基準要求的0.67倍"},{"start":2691.82,"end":2720.355,"text":"高端疫苗組的血清反應比例的95%比信賴區間下限為95.5%也大於基準要求的50%經過了衛福部食藥署在110年7月18日召開專家會議審查高端新冠肺炎疫苗專案製造申請案高端公司所提交的疫苗技術性資料及其療效和安全性的數據結果"},{"start":2721.414,"end":2750.422,"text":"已經符合了新冠疫苗專案製造及輸入技術性資料審查基準的要求經過投票表決建議同意依據藥事法第48條之二有條件通過專案製造另要求與專案核准期間需每月提供安全性的監測報告並與核准後一年內檢送疫苗保護效益的報告高端公司"},{"start":2751.623,"end":2769.879,"text":"後續已與巴拉圭執行第三期臨床試驗試驗結果顯示免疫原性由於AZ疫苗與臺灣執行之擴大臨床二期免疫橋接試驗之結論相似因此高端新冠肺炎疫苗已經在"},{"start":2771.775,"end":2786.822,"text":"111年的2月14日取得了巴拉圭緊急使用授權EUA另外也在泰國執行小型的第三期臨床試驗其免疫原性結果亦與前述相同此外"},{"start":2787.369,"end":2808.097,"text":"高端新冠肺炎疫苗在110年的10月27日獲選進入世界衛生組織的團結試驗在哥倫比亞馬利共和國和菲律賓執行第三期的臨床試驗高端公司在111年7月27日檢送疫苗保護的效益報告經過了專家會議的審查建議補充針對"},{"start":2812.998,"end":2840.941,"text":"年長者重症死亡保護力的資訊高端公司已經在10月28日完成補件經過衛福部食藥署111年11月3日召開在此專家會議審議中整高端疫苗保護效益報告及真實世界接種結果實證資料一致決議認同高端新冠肺炎疫苗符合疫苗保護效益"},{"start":2842.257,"end":2869.079,"text":"參考分析18到64歲國人接種各廠牌之疫苗組合之中重症及死亡情形顯示接種高端疫苗的國人相較於接種AZ、BNT、莫德納疫苗及其他分打的組合其對於預防中重症死亡的保護效益相近另外65歲以上的年長者族群亦可觀察到相同的保護效益結果"},{"start":2870.003,"end":2874.904,"text":"基於上述資料可以佐證高端疫苗具有保護效益"},{"start":2876.421,"end":2903.824,"text":"國際上越來越多的疫苗以免疫橋接的方式取得EUA英國的MHRA及歐盟的EMA已分別在111年的4月14日及111年的6月23日核准VanEva公司COVID-19疫苗其所採用之療效評估標準意為VanEva疫苗與AZ疫苗之綜合抗體免疫橋接評估指標"},{"start":2904.554,"end":2932.502,"text":"而韓國的MFDS也在111年的6月29日合準了SK Bioscience公司COVID-19疫苗其所採用依據也是執行與AZ疫苗原性比較之第三期試驗結果疫苗採購過程簡單說明如下COVID-19疫情流行之初為了要取得安全有效的疫苗政府採取了多元外購及國內研發雙軌並行"},{"start":2935.004,"end":2956.763,"text":"衛福部疾管署在109年7月23日公告辦理補助COVID-19疫苗計劃公開徵求廠商來執行疫苗研發並且完成臨床試驗第一期跟第二期的試驗計劃共有4家廠商來申請經過審查的結果4家業者都符合"},{"start":2957.888,"end":2983.066,"text":"補助的資格其中安特羅公司因為置評無法在計劃期程內完成補助條件所以放棄簽約在上述計劃補助國光公司執行到第一期臨床試驗高端公司及聯亞公司執行到第二期的臨床實驗都得到了政府相關的補助的經費"},{"start":2983.973,"end":3003.583,"text":"疫苗採購規劃是以涵蓋我國人口的65%為規劃以每人接種兩劑估計需要有3000萬劑的疫苗以國際投資進行競洽廠商購買及國內自製等多元方式來同時進行疫苗的採購"},{"start":3005.066,"end":3033.032,"text":"由於110年完成採購COVAX、AZ和莫德納疫苗約2000萬劑需要再採購1000萬劑當時部分國際疫苗廠出現了供候遲延的問題截止110年5月貴府部僅取得了約87萬劑的進口AZ疫苗採購國產疫苗更可確實掌握疫苗供候的進度又因為全球疫苗生產"},{"start":3034.431,"end":3061.738,"text":"的原物料短缺為了要避免因等待疫苗研發程序完成藉此無法獲得原物料而喪失及時生產疫苗的時機基於保障國人在最佳利益前提下故比照採購國際疫苗之預購模式向已進入第二臨床試驗期的國內廠商來採購COVID-19的疫苗以預先保有"},{"start":3062.833,"end":3084.603,"text":"所需的疫苗數量110年的2月至5月疾管署跟高端公司進行了採購合約條約檢視及協商及要求廠商使用工程會採購契約的範本110年的3月10日疾管署召開了國內COVID-19疫苗採購討論會邀請廠商討論採購契約帶協商事項並且要求廠商提供"},{"start":3089.864,"end":3119.273,"text":"成本分析等評估資料高端公司在110年的3月11日提供COVID-19疫苗及成本結構說明110年的4月15日由衛福部部長召開國內COVID-19疫苗採購討論會討論付款條件及疫苗是否符合國際標準決議以共同承擔風險概念及達成各里程碑作為付款條件第一期非無條件給予廠商"},{"start":3120.34,"end":3145.237,"text":"倘因規則與廠商製疫苗開發失敗﹑款項應與追回110年5月17日召開行政院COVID-19疫苗採購工作小組第5次的會議會議討論案研議採購高端疫苗生物製劑股份有限公司及聯亞生技股份有限公司COVID-19疫苗案決議依據政府採購法第105條第一項第二款來辦理"},{"start":3148.983,"end":3175.202,"text":"緊急採購向高端公司及聯亞公司預採購各500萬劑的COVID-19疫苗110年5月25日簽報行政院核定5月27日衛福部緊急採購簽准疾管署在5月28日洽購高端公司及聯亞公司預約完成契約簽訂高端疫苗簽約後禮約情形是這樣的"},{"start":3175.982,"end":3188.293,"text":"食藥署在110年的7月30日核發高端疫苗專案製造EUA核准函高端公司在110年的7月30日到111年的3月24日陸續抱怨交貨總計到貨500萬劑疫苗部分交貨延遲罰款疾管署皆依採購契約來辦理除疫區部分計劃每日違約金令"},{"start":3203.155,"end":3228.781,"text":"廠商預期30日以上仍未能予約之罰款為了簡化行政程序已併於111年的3月24日最末次驗收完成時依契約來規定計劃政府無法立即公開疫苗採購合約內容的原因在於每款COVID-19疫苗的採購合約當中均有附帶的保密條款其中"},{"start":3229.724,"end":3243.713,"text":"高端保密期限為5年另外像BNT、莫德納、AZ、NOVAVAX等外國的疫苗的採購合約也都附有保密的條款保密期甚至更長然而考量"},{"start":3245.429,"end":3270.422,"text":"採購公文重要性及後續參考所需要嚴謹的以最長公文保存年限30年定制意即此公文檔案必須保存30年後使得消費而不是外間所傳的封存30年事實上COVID-19疫苗完整合約不公開並非針對臺灣而是全世界各國皆然"},{"start":3273.26,"end":3290.358,"text":"採購契約有保密條款政府是簽約的一方必須要依照合約來辦理也正與簽約方來溝通建議可以提前公布如同其他契約關係若未經立約雙方同意片面為"},{"start":3291.629,"end":3317.724,"text":"違約公開保密資訊不僅會面臨訴訟賠款而且還將嚴重損害臺灣政府的誠信衝擊國外疫苗大廠未來出售的意願進而影響到未來疫苗藥品相關的採購最終導致國人權益的受損這兩年來有關高端COVID-19疫苗一共63件告發案經過檢察官調查"},{"start":3319.844,"end":3342.428,"text":"均查無不法犯罪情勢．述牽結COVID-19疫苗真實世界的保護力的資料部分為了要評估我國自110年3月起實施的COVID-19疫苗接種政策的成效並作為疫苗政策調整之參考疾管署在111年我國首度爆發Omicron大規模的"},{"start":3343.211,"end":3370.465,"text":"社區流行之後針對我全人口之COVID-19疫苗接種資料與去識別化後以國際通用的大數據的統計分析進行我國真實世界疫苗保護之效益比較研究結果顯示除以在美國的國際抗病毒協會在西雅圖舉辦的環轉路病毒及世紀性感染國際研討會進行協助發表會"},{"start":3372.765,"end":3402.078,"text":"最近也經過國際頂尖的傳染病體和Emerging Infectious Diseases來通知接受刊登上述真實世界分析的結果證實了接種3劑疫苗的中重症及死亡的保護效益較未接種或僅接種1、2劑者為高此外也發現mRNA疫苗包括了BNT跟莫德納以及蛋白質次單元疫苗高端的保護效率"},{"start":3402.509,"end":3431.898,"text":"多較腺病毒載體AZ疫苗具有保護效益並且免疫效力持續時間較長研究結果也發現在全人口資料當中BNT與高端疫苗在預防中重症的保護效益皆達到9成以上也是國際上所度於真實世界的大數據來比較mRNA蛋白質次單元以及腺病毒載體疫苗進行比較"},{"start":3433.011,"end":3446.216,"text":"證實了 mRNA與蛋白質次單元疫苗對Omicron的重症跟死亡是具有保護的效益在COVID-19疫情期間政府推動了各項防疫的措施包括採購COVID-19"},{"start":3447.148,"end":3470.216,"text":"疫苗與審查都是秉持著專業還有以全民健康福祉為優先合約沒有不可告人之事一切都依照相關法規跟國際商業慣例來嚴謹地進行依法行政絕無涉炒股或其他不法民意橋接是國際EUA核准的標準符合科學指引高端疫苗亦經過科學證實"},{"start":3471.786,"end":3472.026,"text":"謝謝陳院長的報告"},{"start":3499.492,"end":3507.319,"text":"現在進行質詢每位委員尋答時間不得逾15分鐘輪到質詢委員如果不在場視為棄權請邱委員現次質詢"},{"start":3540.495,"end":3540.837,"text":"謝謝院長 那我請陳院長陳院長請"},{"start":3551.047,"end":3579.359,"text":"院長早 院長剛剛聽您的報告其中有一段針對這個高端疫苗的合約公開的部分那你有提到說事實上COVID-19疫苗完整合約不公開並非針對台灣而是全球各國接染然後還說包括BNT、莫德納、AZ、Nomavis都有設這個保密條款那因為這個保密條款所以沒辦法公開"},{"start":3580.279,"end":3591.06,"text":"那我想給你看一下 院長 這個左上角這個有四個國家的語言 然後有一個國徽那院長你知道這是哪個國家"},{"start":3593.649,"end":3620.669,"text":"瑞士因為院長是公會專家應該非常清楚那這個就是瑞士把他所有的採購疫苗的合約像這個例子這個是莫德納通通都放在這一個網站上一目了然一點下去就看到那不只是瑞士啊院長你其實非常清楚"},{"start":3622.352,"end":3646.35,"text":"像歐盟採購的這個疫苗的合約哪怕是哪個廠牌的全部也都公開在網路上那包括像說有的是說這個連MOU然後呢這一個不只是一份合約從MOU到正式簽約到後來有可能他還會這個修正"},{"start":3647.831,"end":3676.995,"text":"那乃至於說你這個介紹像AZ2.9O也放在這個上面所以我說這整個疫苗採購的流程的法律文件啊院長這絕對不是像你們在第8頁寫這樣嘛感覺好像是說全世界都沒有公開這個採購疫苗現在是一個網路的時代全球化的時代全世界的國家當然"},{"start":3678.018,"end":3686.674,"text":"大部份的國家有可能沒有公開但是像瑞士 像歐盟大部份國家沒有公開 你講對齁不是啊 院長"},{"start":3688.217,"end":3688.277,"text":"從頭到尾"},{"start":3710.457,"end":3728.025,"text":"從簽約MOU到這個後面修正文件乃至契約都是大方方方公開那到底我真的必須要問到底有什麼理由說我們的政府做不到那到現在高端疫苗採購的合約為什麼我們到現在還看不到 院長"},{"start":3728.817,"end":3728.997,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":3755.087,"end":3755.387,"text":"高端的價格"},{"start":3776.275,"end":3794.982,"text":"早就已經講出來了嘛這是高端自己講出來的那所以其他的契約的必要支點有哪一些是要保密的好啦 如果你認為說要保密的你可以去做一些處理嘛比如說你在這個地方的時候你在這邊故意寫說完整合約不公開"},{"start":3795.862,"end":3796.683,"text":"賴清德副總統已經講得非常清楚了"},{"start":3825.623,"end":3830.687,"text":"人民有知的權利應該要公開高端疫苗合約"},{"start":3846.889,"end":3847.59,"text":"因為在這個保密協定的"},{"start":3869.486,"end":3886.649,"text":"這一個條款規範之下我們如果要公開需要得到雙方的同意那我們也主張政府應該要公開但是這個公開需要雙方的合意所以我們政府也努力來跟高端公司"},{"start":3887.069,"end":3887.749,"text":"高端合約到底何時會公開?"},{"start":3910.967,"end":3935.756,"text":"董事會怎麼做要開來確定那最重要的一件事情我想可能委員你也很清楚在雙方如果能夠達到協議的情況下我們當然是希望他們越早公開越好你可以去比較看看其他的國家放在網站上面這麼清楚的事情大部分的只有少數的國家這樣做那他有開董事會嗎"},{"start":3938.918,"end":3964.557,"text":"有嗎?你們有去看嗎?所以沒辦法,也沒辦法有一個時間點嘛今天院長的答覆就是說,也沒辦法有一個時間點這個需要雙方得到同意那如果不同意的話,不就永遠都不公開?如果有這樣的一個情況發生的時候那我們當然就需要再考慮說他不公開的時候"},{"start":3966.127,"end":3984.461,"text":"那你要怎麼辦對 在這個情況這個很重要的在你剛才講的說相關的部分要遮蔽等等這個在大院的調閱小組調查的時候我們就有這樣的一個資訊公開而且大院已經開過20幾次的會議也都看過這個資料了你就是"},{"start":3988.504,"end":3990.045,"text":"我剛才已經講過如果我們今天因為這樣而毀掉了政府的誠信"},{"start":4017.352,"end":4017.632,"text":"講聽不下去餒"},{"start":4035.799,"end":4039.1,"text":"這個當然是我們都是按照依法來辦理"},{"start":4063.53,"end":4079.826,"text":"依法來辦理的話依照政府採購法105條第一項第二款然後以及說這個後面的這個相關的細則的規定的話基本上應該是要有一個決標的公告那"},{"start":4081.068,"end":4082.21,"text":"但是院長即便是緊急採購還是要做絕標公告"},{"start":4096.495,"end":4122.471,"text":"你要有一個決標公告說你給這個廠商嘛然後這個決標公告上面會有很多的資訊那這個資訊包括上面現在大家所爭議的就是說很多契約上面的內容我們有決標公告啦沒有因為你沒有這個決標公告我很明確跟你講因為你沒有這個決標公告所以現在問題來了我們有決標公告你有決標公告是你有做 你確定嗎"},{"start":4123.47,"end":4139.456,"text":"是 我確定有絕標公告好 沒關係 這個會後我們再來再確認所以你這樣講的就不對啦你就說假消息啊非常清楚你就用假消息來打擊政府啊不是假消息啦 院長有絕標公告但是我們遮蔽了價格我想齁 不要"},{"start":4140.336,"end":4156.251,"text":"用這一些似是而非的理由來打擊政府這一個為了要保障人民的健康所做的這一些絕標的公告那我們已經有公告而且有遮蔽價格所以我剛才講的就是可惜了吧有絕標公告有絕標公告"},{"start":4160.595,"end":4189.113,"text":"你現在還在講錯的訊息啊不是錯的訊息啦是錯的訊息我想你們要講務實你們講理性你們講科學你完全反科學啊不理性啊也不務實啊我跟你講就有我說有你說沒有不需要不需要我們不需要你檢驗啦你講的就不對嘛這個是大家社會可以來檢驗的對啊我講的就是這樣啊我們不需要你檢驗所以你有公告你承認有公告嗎那我現在告訴你說你承認有公告嗎"},{"start":4189.913,"end":4207.018,"text":"你沒有公告啊 有啊有公告啊 你問你沒有公告啊有公告啊 你看你就要講假的 錯的消息啊你認為說是緊急採購嘛 對不對有公告 有絕標公告 有絕標公告還是要去做絕標公告 有絕標公告我已經講三次了沒關係 這個可以之後再來我們這個是有一個客觀的事實了嘛對嘛 你就說白菜啦 好啦"},{"start":4215.219,"end":4240.917,"text":"好 院長 那我想請教兩個月前 院長在國會也有指示說這個宏泰公益信託針對這個宗家交易案的部分那是由這個做處分的NCCC做監管而不是教育部那院長也在國會指示說應該NCCC負責去做調查然後釐清宏泰公益信託捐款的這個爭議但是呢 兩國會過去了 院長"},{"start":4243.018,"end":4263.839,"text":"NCC到現在也沒有約詢相關的單位去做調查然後也沒有向教育部去調閱資料那另外宏泰當初的承諾說要5年15億做公益哇 現在已經要搞了才捐了7億那除非今年要捐8億不然就要承諾跳票了"},{"start":4264.9,"end":4273.648,"text":"那請問陳院長面對NCC擺爛不作為甚至公然的違抗院長的命令請問院長現在要如何處理"},{"start":4274.315,"end":4294.301,"text":"我想NCC沒有擺爛NCC也積極在努力那今天我們的議題是在講高端合約如果委員你對於宏泰公益信託這件事情還要有所質詢的時候我會提供書面的報告本來監督政府各項的施政是我的職責嘛但是今天我們是專題報告是有關"},{"start":4296.602,"end":4304.025,"text":"高端的合約阿那你現在要談NCC的部分我說NCC沒有擺爛不應該這樣護航財團阿我們沒有護航財團我們沒有護航財團也沒有擺爛完全沒有擺爛這是你片面的講法"},{"start":4320.112,"end":4346.225,"text":"這是你片面的講法而今天的議題就是高端合約那我想問你今天來講這個東西你要資料我後面補充給你到底紅帶公益信託那騙了等於是騙了這一個行政處分那行政處分有付款的這是幾百億的交易案那也承諾說4年5年要捐15億那現在已經要跳票了那你做何處理我想通常會現在正在做各式各樣的調查"},{"start":4346.704,"end":4375.66,"text":"有關的爭議那經濟部也提供了股權的資料來進行分析那如果有違反這個相關的負擔的這個情形的話我們當然是依法處理現在是在釣房現在在根本他連續釣業教育部的資料連續做兩個月過去院長你已經指示他完全沒有處理這不是護航財團什麼是護航財團我想處理事情都有一定的程序一定的過程然後我再舉一個例子接避者保護法上個會期還有送進來"},{"start":4377,"end":4404.008,"text":"這個會期連送進來都沒有在你主持的行政院連送進來都沒有永豐金這是很明顯的他根本是在阻擾這個接避者保護法然後甚至對行政院對實力黨團對許多力推接避者保護法的人進行監控院長接避者保護法要再度跳票了嗎沒有我們這件事情已經在行政院"},{"start":4404.688,"end":4405.248,"text":"好 我們請華務部長來回答"},{"start":4426.459,"end":4431.203,"text":"沒有遙遙無期沒有遙遙無期只要這個法案只要這個法案我們審查通過我們一定會提出來我答應你一定會提出來"},{"start":4463.899,"end":4468.376,"text":"好 謝謝邱委員接下來請邱委員成言質詢"},{"start":4492.796,"end":4495.502,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們邀請陳建仁院長陳院長請"},{"start":4504.367,"end":4531.334,"text":"院長早安今天火氣有點大因為我覺得我們今天如果大家都來談高端我想今天我們還是針對議題來討論那昨天其實我們立法院召開朝野協商當時就針對這個高端合約是不是要公布我想還是回到今天的重點當時我們協商的結論我們是希望行政院在昨天下午的5點就提供相關今天專案報告的書面資料我想這個不過分吧"},{"start":4532.234,"end":4543.462,"text":"對 你們昨天才告訴我 那你那個數據資料這麼獲益吧但是你知道我們什麼時候才收到嗎今天早上8點15分才送到我辦公室對 那依法的專案報告請問一下 這個報告才11頁你需要到今天早上8點15 9點就要進行院會的專案報告 9點就要"},{"start":4556.77,"end":4557.211,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":4576.232,"end":4577.714,"text":"11月的報告整個高端採購500萬劑的疫苗花了國人40億的公帑"},{"start":4596.514,"end":4623.516,"text":"消毀了300多萬人的生命沒有錯但是相關國際採購的疫苗今天有相關已經可以使用的狀況下你的EUA你的實際在推動的過程中這麼多的疑慮甚至他後續的股價的異常這個都還沒有談到今天光是針對一個採購合約的一個公開都沒有辦法來完成整個40億的公帑"},{"start":4625.137,"end":4653.218,"text":"消毀了12億總共100多萬劑的疫苗你今天給我11頁的專案報告你還要拖到早上8點15才送到我辦公室這是對的嗎這是你面對民意的態度嗎如果你今天繼續這樣下去我可以告訴你今天這個專案報告今天這個臨時會等於是白開的全體的國人都在開為什麼因為今天的結論就是你們不願意公開你告訴我因為高端董事會不同意你們還在溝通還在要求"},{"start":4653.658,"end":4676.193,"text":"但是我必須告訴你難道政府完全對他們有約束力嗎難道完全都沒有辦法要求嗎這個案子不是一天兩天你的合約不能公開是因為價格的問題商業的問題保密的問題我都了解我是海外台商出身我非常清楚但是那是在疫情期間當時市場上有相對競爭的時候但是疫情解封到現在已經一年多了已經一年多了"},{"start":4676.993,"end":4687.816,"text":"當時的合約是簽五年委員你沒有講話的機會當時簽約是五年保密所以政府要維持政府的責任我今天不想在這邊講政治但是我希望你很正視這個問題我可以告訴你在政治上的立場你不公開對你們是比較傷啦"},{"start":4698.168,"end":4714.334,"text":"老實說是這樣子啦可是為什麼今天您的態度讓我非常的失望但是政府必要維持誠信我告訴你誠信是什麼你今天包含法務部在105年的韓誓這邊就有提到"},{"start":4715.114,"end":4741.514,"text":"得標的廠商投標單清單載有投標者投標履約的內容乃民眾監督履約之工具尚非為拒絕申請政府資訊之理由這個部分很清楚啦其實如果涉及跟民眾相關權益有關的你是可以要求他啦法務部已經含釋啦難道完全對高端公司都沒有相關的約束力難道一間公司用今天老實講用人民的納稅權來做這個疫苗採購"},{"start":4743.195,"end":4743.535,"text":"我想過了嘛"},{"start":4762.159,"end":4766.441,"text":"他到底不公開的主要原因是什麼你們溝通的內容溝通的細節溝通的結果你可不可以跟國人在這邊簡單報告"},{"start":4784.29,"end":4788.833,"text":"所以今天給國人的感覺就是行政院衛福部高端大家在互相甩鍋雙面手法拖過去沒有要拖"},{"start":4807.156,"end":4835.439,"text":"什麼時候開個董事會這麼困難立法院臨時會都可以開了各黨朝野大家現在都可以來開會了為什麼高端不行立法院也召開過立法院也召開了這個調閱小組的委員會所有的高端的疫苗大家也在那個小組裡面有看過了監察院也調過這個資料"},{"start":4836.8,"end":4854.445,"text":"臨時會議員："},{"start":4855.265,"end":4881.454,"text":"那你就繼續保密吧我建議你就繼續保密啊你看國人為什麼看你們你看國人為什麼看今天執政黨處理這件事情政治的核心在執行力啦成功的人找方法 失敗找藉口我想如果你用這樣的態度用這樣的態度來面對民意必須院長我不想跟你在這邊口舌之爭但是你今天的這樣子的態度讓我非常的失望從你們今天行政院你們的聯絡人告訴我們的原因是什麼"},{"start":4882.39,"end":4903.236,"text":"為什麼今天早上才送到辦公室 因為長官說沒有辦法提供昨天沒有辦法提供 請問這是哪一位長官哪一位長官我們昨天開會開到了晚上的時候所以你們還是要互相套招 然後11月的沒有套招 那我問你為什麼11月你要給我搞一天"},{"start":4904.196,"end":4904.997,"text":"當時高端"},{"start":4925.257,"end":4939.333,"text":"我告訴你啦今天民進黨在國會實質過半啦實質過半今天你們所有的道業小組所有的相關提供的資料都是遮蔽啦遮蔽至少三分之一以上啦相關的重要資訊都遮蔽這要怎麼審查你告訴我"},{"start":4940.094,"end":4951.858,"text":"只要不同意的全部都要透過表決幫我們封殺掉剛才你還有你們民進黨還有臉叫國會叫國人讓你們實質過半實質過半就是實質護航啊沒有幸好是國會過半啦如果到當時呢當時在貴黨就主張說不要開發國內的疫苗我們什麼時候說不用開發國內疫苗我在這邊質詢你去調資料我每次質詢高端我第一件事情是說我們支持國產疫苗發展不要亂扣報紙"},{"start":4970.188,"end":4971.909,"text":"我們所有的專案報告以往送來的時間都是在報告的當時送過來的"},{"start":4989.804,"end":4990.724,"text":"昨天晚上7點就到辦公室在等你們的報告我還要等到8點15"},{"start":5013.396,"end":5037.891,"text":"我們昨天晚上忙到11點才把這個報告給完成所以在委員你講的我沒辦法同意我會告訴院長你的報告結論就是不公開全部以高端董事會的決議為主只要他不同意你就沒有辦法公開你對他完全沒批條國人的訴求你沒有辦法回應簡單來講就是這樣子今天給我們的結論就是這樣子請問一下我們在這邊質詢我們這樣有意義嗎"},{"start":5040.526,"end":5045.853,"text":"我想法務部的105年的函式就講得很清楚了政府是可以去要求的"},{"start":5046.584,"end":5073.786,"text":"那如果你什麼事情都要推給民間那這樣子國人能夠接受嗎而且這個相關的資訊如果說今天是在疫情緊繃的期間他有國際上採購商業秘密價格之間的競爭這個我們都同意今天解封已經一年多了國人有資的權利而且這件事情是賴清德副總統也是我們的民進黨總統候選人他在總統辯論會上面他也主張的今天你是不是也應該來去回應民意"},{"start":5076.289,"end":5095.005,"text":"應該來去回應民意那如果你們要今天用這樣的態度委員你說我們要尊重合約那我們合約簽當時簽訂的就是5年的保密協定保密條款所以我們是應該要遵照這個5年的保密條款的方式來進行那你就繼續保存5年吧"},{"start":5095.305,"end":5098.066,"text":"但是我剛才講得很清楚嗎我剛才講得很清楚我剛才講得很清楚我可以講嗎"},{"start":5119.678,"end":5131.269,"text":"高端的疫苗我剛才已經報告得很清楚真實世界的數據出來他是跟BNT跟莫德納是一樣好的保護當時就是因為有很多人在"},{"start":5132.21,"end":5132.41,"text":"主席"},{"start":5152.097,"end":5173.755,"text":"我們理解涉及國家安全我們都同意涉及國產疫苗本來就是戰略物資本來就是國家安全的重要戰略物資我們都理解但是高端整個人過程國人的疑慮採購的金額相關合約的內牢甚至股價的異常坡道"},{"start":5174.395,"end":5175.356,"text":"委員你這講的都不對的啦"},{"start":5192.699,"end":5210.039,"text":"我又不對你都對好我講啊動物食用的結果早就發表了我們現在在告訴你高端合約的解密相關的效力我們沒有在跟你質疑效力喔我從頭到尾沒有在跟你質疑疫苗效力喔你不要再挖你不要再這個聲東擊西啦院長"},{"start":5210.54,"end":5238.26,"text":"不要這樣子好不好我們現在跟你講今天專報的內容相關合約採購的目標什麼時候要公布什麼時候能夠高端取得共識什麼時候能讓國人有知的權利這才是今天專報的重點我沒有在跟你討論疫苗的效力我拜託一下你剛剛還在糾正這個台上的委員另外一個部分除了在這個我今天我這樣聽起來合約是不可能公布的啦"},{"start":5239.08,"end":5261.222,"text":"至少在今天沒有結論啦我這樣聽起來啦我希望你們繼續來去要求這個法務部的含釋我希望你們仔細去看你們來用這個含釋是不是能對高端公司來進行相關的要求另外一個部分我們還是一再強調我們會支持政府的本土生技產業但是我們不希望有人利用這樣的正當性趁機哄抬股價"},{"start":5261.863,"end":5265.525,"text":"高端股價問題從它30塊附近漲起在短短一年半就暴漲逾13倍2021年5月更衝上417元尤其政府高層多次不避嫌"},{"start":5277.171,"end":5303.556,"text":"高端股跌停的時候還出面呼籲國產疫苗要有信心甚至帶頭打高端我想這個部分是不是請院長你解釋相關的股價異常波動上有沒有相關的問題好委員你是專家啦我跟你講全世界不會啦你比較專家啦好那你如果承認我是專家全世界在發展疫苗的人在發展的過程當中當動物實驗成功臨床實驗成功的時候那個股價就會一直上升"},{"start":5304.376,"end":5331.59,"text":"但是呢 如果實驗失敗的時候就會下降所以那個上升你看莫德納你看BNT的股價的變化是怎麼樣所以藥物的開發本來就是會隨著開發的不同期程它有成功的時候呢它就會股價會一直上升這個是很正常的事情所以不要懷疑它那你如果講到說有沒有什麼涉及不法實際上我們檢調單位已經查過這個士林的地檢署對於"},{"start":5333.351,"end":5348.165,"text":"有一位專家審查委員洩密這個高端實驗的好的結果給他的太太結果呢被判刑了三個月要判刑兩年我想你也很清楚嘛所以我們對於所有這些不法的事情都有在查證喔都有在這個偵辦那"},{"start":5350.854,"end":5379.933,"text":"所以這一件事情很重要而且立法院在衛黃委員會實際上呢他們也有調閱相關的這個資料那你說相關的資料在當時要提供說明也提供說明開了這麼多次的會議調閱小組開了這麼多次的會議也看了合約結果當時怎麼會沒有意見現在選舉到了又再來吵這個事情意見都很多啦只是都會被民進黨在國會直接表決封殺掉沒關係院長我剩下30秒我在這邊還是誠懇的呼籲我希望你們"},{"start":5380.854,"end":5381.034,"text":"我們一向很"},{"start":5417.691,"end":5447.145,"text":"好 謝謝區委員接下來請曾偉民中執行謝謝院長 我要先程序發言兩點 第一點 院會我就執行院長 這第一點其他部位所長不能上來第二點 院長我剛剛看的情況到底誰要執行誰啊叫院長打的時候再打還在反執行"},{"start":5450.097,"end":5478.386,"text":"好不好 院長這可能是這一屆你最後一次主席宴會希望展現是壯大民國立法院院長好不好好 謝謝 請院長好 陳院長請主委好院長好其實我看你答得不錯我問的問題你全部可以答放心我不會為難你"},{"start":5479.471,"end":5491.034,"text":"第一個羅志正委員的不雅的影片已經鑑定完成什麼事要公布這影片是不是偽造變造"},{"start":5508.294,"end":5527.808,"text":"我們尊重檢調的調查的結果調查結果是不是偽造變造那院長什麼時候公布選後再公布對不對我們會尊重司法獨立司法你想不要檢調一題你不公布就是戰斧借血"},{"start":5528.578,"end":5551.47,"text":"你同不同意不同意我想在檢調的調查過程當中你的立場我可以理解都要很審慎那你的立場當然也是會這樣子質詢我啊我是覺得很正常啊但是這個是不同意沒關係讓2300萬民眾去做出公斷好另外盧志政另外一個影片跟總統對話"},{"start":5553.8,"end":5573.241,"text":"那這個錄音檔外流到底誰偷錄這個影片這個也正在偵查當中還在偵查當然啦會不會是樓智峻自己錄就是他們兩個對話這是你個人的猜測那你認為誰錄"},{"start":5575.947,"end":5580.911,"text":"委員長你不要等閒視之啊我沒有等閒視之亞勝您跟蔡總統的對話也被錄了這有可能啊一個國會的議員跟總統的講話都被錄音那您"},{"start":5602.91,"end":5602.93,"text":"國安問題"},{"start":5632.25,"end":5632.27,"text":"一個國會議員：總統對話"},{"start":5635.663,"end":5664.274,"text":"被錄音 被流露出來或許明天就公布你跟總統的對話這是國安的問題這涉及到國家安全我同意這是國安的問題但是我跟你報告過了我們最重要的就是要讓檢調來以科學的方法還有很審慎的來看看有沒有是偽造變造等等所以這是不是要時間委員我們可以信口開河隨便講嗎當然不可以嘛"},{"start":5664.714,"end":5686.44,"text":"這就是為什麼檢調要審慎調查的原因我不是說你信口開河但是最重要的很多的人都沒有說什麼檢調馬上要公布這是不可能的事情嘛因為你事情的調查總是要時間"},{"start":5689.448,"end":5703.037,"text":"國安很重要我們會要求這很重要我也同意但是檢調會很審慎的來做相關的調查而且很迅速調查的時間我們會請這些單位一定要來加速的來辦理"},{"start":5714.417,"end":5733.455,"text":"好反正你問不出你什麼名堂好另外賴總統候選人12月30號表示為了釐清民眾對政府購買高端的疑慮政府要公布合約為什麼時間過去了到現在還不公布"},{"start":5734.292,"end":5756.064,"text":"好 這個理由我剛才已經有說明過了讓我再說明一下因為在當時我們跟高端簽訂這個合約的時候呢有五年保密的這一個條款那在政府視為簽約人的一方的時候呢我們當然要信守我們當時簽約的這一些約定那所以 但是政府呢我們曉得"},{"start":5757.125,"end":5757.526,"text":"院長你過去啊"},{"start":5775.091,"end":5794.784,"text":"那因為這裡有沒有條約的限制在政府需要維持政府的誠信如果政府沒有維持誠信的話高端的公司他的往來的對象幾乎只有蔡政府你知不知道知不知道他做生意的對象"},{"start":5796.496,"end":5820.222,"text":"我覺得這是你個人的看法什麼個人的看法你看他的銷售收入啊他做生意的收入啦沒關係你業務不熟啦我熟得很99.9%他的銷售收入都是只有蔡政府蔡政府他你只要他你他是你唯一"},{"start":5826.843,"end":5841.979,"text":"我剛才在報告的時候也跟兩位邱委員在講的時候就講得很清楚我們是也主張要公開而且我們也是積極的來跟高端來聯繫希望他能夠盡早來公布"},{"start":5842.159,"end":5844.561,"text":"民法規定顯示公平的合約是無效的我練給你聽"},{"start":5873.124,"end":5895.558,"text":"廠商說明已盡商業上最大努力而無法履歷者機關同意不對廠商追償以致付出契約價金那接下來呢就這樣子喔他已經最大努力就不追償價金啦剛才我的報告裡面已經講了如果可以歸屬於廠商院長我跟你講我當了一輩子的公務員我沒有看過這種合約"},{"start":5902.305,"end":5918.653,"text":"沒有看過這種合約顯示公平難怪你不敢公布啦你這樣講我不同意很重要的一件事情是剛才我的剛才我已經講過嘛剛才我已經講過如果可歸屬於廠商的是要處罰的啊我沒有處罰的就處罰所以並不是沒有處罰你這樣講你是斷章取義啦沒有啊這合約啊"},{"start":5931.204,"end":5950.599,"text":"對阿我跟你講就是說我剛才也講過如果違反合約的時候是廠商的責任他是要受處罰的阿有阿有寫在另外一條阿所以所以我覺得阿就業公布就可以了啦什麼處罰阿你懂不懂阿好再請教你阿我懂喔這個疫苗阿我有幾個疑點好你說第一個"},{"start":5954.397,"end":5972.506,"text":"高端是民間公司為什麼未服務還沒有採購高端公司就已經知道採購價格他就知道要700塊以上欸那個是錯假消息啦那個700塊是錯假消息絕對是真消息"},{"start":5973.973,"end":5999.606,"text":"委員那個是我們疾管署當時都還沒有這是錯假消息真的是錯假消息當時是疾管署他們為了要要採購這個疫苗所講的那個是錯假消息然後被剪接的被會黨的議員剪接的消息這是假消息第二點"},{"start":6001.066,"end":6020.183,"text":"為什麼衛福部還沒有通過疫苗的審查高端知道一定會通過一路一路立登這也是錯假消息錯假真的阿你怎麼會一路通過我們當時有三家廠商一路開立登阿你沒看過那個錄音帶一路開立登阿好委員我可以講嗎好"},{"start":6027.816,"end":6030.557,"text":"你對資本市場不熟啦高端的前身叫什麼"},{"start":6054.321,"end":6083.684,"text":"高端在證交所或者櫃檯中心的紀錄我們要看他實驗的結論講科學啦講科學啦你講科學來講不管他你這樣講是不公平的不公平啊你去查紀錄好我們來查紀錄他的動物實驗很成功動物實驗很成功臨床一期很成功臨床二期很成功而且出來的效果比AZ還要來得好"},{"start":6084.164,"end":6085.606,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6105.393,"end":6121.389,"text":"民進黨說高端是疫苗國家隊對不對對不對我聽不清楚你說好再講一次民進黨政府說高端是疫苗國家隊對不對我想當時我們徵求的疫苗國家隊一共有三個隊"},{"start":6122.29,"end":6143.174,"text":"一個就是聯亞 一個就是國光 一個就是高端而且他們在很嚴格的限制下要把動物實驗的結果臨床一期 臨床二期提出來才能夠做這就是國家隊我們鼓勵所有的廠商投入疫苗研發而不是去鼓勵政府去採購中國的疫苗那個疫苗效價最差的 幸好沒有 幸好沒有採購"},{"start":6152.239,"end":6153.52,"text":"所以我們的國交隊是必要來購﹖"},{"start":6162.52,"end":6181.539,"text":"他是什麼國家隊阿他在他在巴拉圭取得臨床三期他在泰國取得臨床三期他跟世界衛生組織有這個技術轉移的這個簽約而且他世界衛生組織也幫他做三期的臨床實驗完全抹煞了科學的證據完全抹煞科學證據"},{"start":6186.204,"end":6193.949,"text":"好 再跟你講疫苗是國家對對不對那為什麼這一次的流感疫苗你是代理韓國的疫苗沒辦法自己生產你連流感的疫苗都沒辦法自己生產欸你還代理韓國的欸"},{"start":6211.923,"end":6221.415,"text":"我想委員你不要把高端疫苗跟流感疫苗 流感疫苗的製作比起高端疫苗的製作要來得簡單我問提示在這裡我代理韓國的這什麼國家隊啊"},{"start":6227.403,"end":6230.344,"text":"我還是那個問題你既然是疫苗國家隊連"},{"start":6255.93,"end":6258.131,"text":"在當時臺灣缺疫苗的時候在野黨要求我們用中國的疫苗"},{"start":6280.962,"end":6281.382,"text":"高端股價"},{"start":6307.079,"end":6311.904,"text":"從2020的27元一路炒到20215月31的417塊後來一路下跌昨天收盤是68.4元院長有多少散戶"},{"start":6326.209,"end":6334.373,"text":"臨時慘重打電話到辦公室抗議蔡政府蔡政府蔡政府從20幾塊抖化41728塊都要閃出受害院長你知不知道"},{"start":6345.964,"end":6347.765,"text":"我們已經查了而且已經判刑了"},{"start":6386.906,"end":6411.245,"text":"好 謝謝鄭委員接下來請林委員竣現質詢謝謝主席本席邀請我們行政院陳院長院長請衛生部部長華務部部長華務部部長請林委員好院長好"},{"start":6412.557,"end":6441.264,"text":"委員長想不到我們到2024年第一次在立法院開會還在討論高端疫苗的事情高端疫苗啊這個事情討論了兩年多啦光是行政院院長的報告就有三次你今天第四次來光是在委員會的專案報告就有16次在委員會的調閱就有兩次國民黨的召委講話很主持契約拿給"},{"start":6441.929,"end":6471.034,"text":"就拿出來看嘛對不對對有沒有看過看過兩遍啦看過兩次啦講完組織的會議啦所以有什麼樣的弊案啊就告了63個案司法偵辦啊法務部長在那全部都是沒有佈罰偵檢不起訴嘛說不定有問題還去找啊今天為什麼叫你來所以你要有耐心一點啦我覺得他們是為了選舉啦"},{"start":6472.247,"end":6473.747,"text":"這是他們的選舉動作國民黨真的有心要查"},{"start":6502.369,"end":6529.625,"text":"我剛上台以前看一下啦38席的國民黨委員啦只來23席啦還有40%的國民黨立委沒有來啦還是我們民進黨幫忙他動員今天才可以成會啦真的有心要查就全部來啊負責任一點啊國民黨立委國民黨黨團自己都叫不過來啦結果開會都不來啊他們今天要求開這個題目啊以為民進黨會把他封殺啦"},{"start":6531.784,"end":6553.288,"text":"選前4天開什麼臨時會討論一個已經2年多來我剛才再講一次行政院長專案報告3次委員會專案報告16次委員會調閱2次司法查了63個案子全部不起訴選前4天還在開這個會為了什麼懂了嗎為了選舉他以為民進黨把他火絕掉讓會開不成然後就說民進黨害怕民進黨要隱瞞"},{"start":6562.978,"end":6582.746,"text":"講不到 我們就只求對決嘛就讓城鎮的院長來講清楚嘛讓在野黨來質詢嘛只是你講得再好 你說得再清楚他們一樣不接受因為你剛有提到啦契約為什麼不能公布我們好像跟每一個當時搶購疫苗全世界都在搶契約裡面啊"},{"start":6585.114,"end":6605.847,"text":"他們都有要求保命的年限嘛好啦高端就算我們現在請他公布他不公布如果他董事會開了一樣不公布那五年後我們就有權利公布了嘛是不是這樣子 財務部長是不是這樣子最慢就是五年嘛五年嘛 對不對所以我們現在請他公布嘛 對不對"},{"start":6607.159,"end":6634.157,"text":"我們現在我們不是只有針對高端的有保密條款所有的都有AZ高端保密一年五年我理解這樣對不對因為你們以前都破過了我都有印象Normal Facts保密七年對不對BNT十年莫德納賣我們要求永遠不能公布我們那時候為了要搶莫德納大家說要住莫德納所以我們就知道也是簽了我們這個永遠不能公布"},{"start":6636.172,"end":6658.415,"text":"那在立法院委員會調閱的時候其實啊 你說有 國民黨說有一些東西有圖的啦但是啦 其實最重要的數字 後來都有浮現出來嘛疫苗的單價嘛 疫苗的數量嘛然後政府花了多少錢嘛 這最重要的啊還在炒這個事情"},{"start":6659.721,"end":6688.375,"text":"不要妄想用高端疫苗案當作是凱旋院這扒皮了的遮羞布所以你今天浪費行政和立法的資源照理埋在這裡討論過那麼多次還在討論這有問題是要去告嘛那我在請問院長你剛說你要說清楚的查了那麼多那高端的股價異常有沒有人為炒作"},{"start":6697.452,"end":6716.66,"text":"在這個高端的相關的這個案件涉及不法的部分其實檢調單位曾經有調查士林地檢署有這個對於食藥署裡面的疫苗審查專家這個劉醫師他洩密高端的這個好的這個研究成果給他的太太"},{"start":6718.861,"end":6742.789,"text":"因此因為犯了內線交易經過市林地院判決有期徒刑三個月緩刑兩年有期徒刑一年六個月緩刑四年這一個部分都已經有所定案所以如果真的有不法的時候我們一定是查到底的這個是絕對不會有所搜索的我們一定會全力以赴"},{"start":6743.789,"end":6765.03,"text":"所以政府是這樣子的來看看這個高端的這樣的情形那我剛才講過這個有民間提出了63件對於陳時中的圖利瀆職的這一些控訴在臺北地檢署他經過了這個調查以後就查無不法全數遷截所以在這裡"},{"start":6765.811,"end":6791.691,"text":"我們已經經過了這一些很嚴謹的事情而且地檢署就是完全按照這樣的方式很認真的在查緝相關的可能被提起來弊案但是都是完全查無不法然後完全簽結所以這件事情我是覺得我完全同意委員現在在講才提出來完全是在一個選舉的炒作不過如果講到選舉的炒作我真的很想"},{"start":6792.512,"end":6810.866,"text":"我可以講一下嗎我們來看看當COVID-19剛剛開始進入到台灣的時候我們的在野黨還有境外勢力的這一個協力者他怎麼說說我們要跟中國一樣看待我們一定要來這一個封城我們一定要普篩我們一定要停班停課我們一定要停工"},{"start":6812.076,"end":6823.068,"text":"好在我們當時的中央流行疫情指揮中心說不是我們要做好邊境管控我們要做好疫調我們要做好居家隔離居家檢疫結果呢我們在2020年"},{"start":6824.733,"end":6843.238,"text":"三百六十五天裡面有兩百五十多天是零確診全世界大為驚豔而且我們的經濟在那個時候是全世界成長率最高的兩個國家之一那美國也是這樣來稱讚美國的經濟研究所也是說臺灣做得最好死亡率最低而經濟負成長"},{"start":6845.319,"end":6861.997,"text":"最少也就是有正成長的一個國家全世界第一名喔但是到了2021年我們開始在談疫苗的時候多少的在野黨還有境外勢力的呼和者說要買中國的疫苗那中國的疫苗是所有的銷價最低的"},{"start":6863.038,"end":6887.517,"text":"致力買了中國的疫苗以後疫情繼續上升直到打BNT才下來澳洲跟香港也打了這個疫苗然後不得不打BNT的疫苗幸好當時我們是蔡總統能夠贏得2020的選舉幸好國會過半要不的話我們的防疫特別條例我們的疫後特別條例要通過我看還是百般刁難"},{"start":6888.658,"end":6910.515,"text":"那好 那我們當時幸好沒有買國藥跟這個科興喔你如果買了以後 像中國一樣連續三年 處處在封城 天天在普篩然後經濟蕭條 就會隨著中國沉淪那個時候 因為有很多的民眾為了"},{"start":6912.449,"end":6932.483,"text":"臨時會議"},{"start":6932.623,"end":6960.014,"text":"只有7成5打預防針你看看日本韓國還有新加坡多到9成5以上所以我們台灣死亡的人大部分都是沒有打預防針的這些老人家一個錯誤的建議一個抹黑謾罵使得台灣有多少老人家因此而死亡這實在令我很痛心欸可以這樣嗎可以為了政治利益使得我們的國人不願意去打預防針"},{"start":6961.581,"end":6983.169,"text":"可以嗎還現在選舉到了還要繼續來謾罵現在要鼓勵大家來XBB啦這樣子一講老人家又不去打了誰要負責任所以我覺得齁這一些在野黨實在是不是幸好你看看如果不是蔡總統連任不是國會過半如果韓國瑜"},{"start":6984.649,"end":7009.727,"text":"選上了總統如果其他的在野黨過半的時候台灣不會有今天這樣的局面這是我今天很沉痛的要講高端疫苗是多好的疫苗動物實驗臨床一期臨床二期都做得那麼成功在世界一流的雜誌上發表偏偏要抹黑讓台灣的人民不願意去接種但是副作用最低的你讓那些怕副作用的老人家不打於心何忍啊"},{"start":7011.089,"end":7021.322,"text":"真的我今天實在是大家說我激動我就是這樣激動的原因就是我這樣子依附到中國去的做法"},{"start":7022.233,"end":7042.079,"text":"就是很可能使得台灣是很沉淪的跟著中國一起沉淪所以台灣在這幾年3年我們的經濟GDP是連續3年最高的而且我們的這個外銷也是最高的所以我們才有很好的這個稅入稅出盈餘連續5年超過1000億去2022年可以到達5000億這是全民努力的成果"},{"start":7050.382,"end":7075.85,"text":"但是政協黨為了政治利益可以這樣抹煞我們全民的努力可以抹煞所有防疫一線的人員這2300萬個無名英雄的攻擊可以這樣抹煞嗎今天我實在是太難過了院長你也辛苦啦但是啦我們也知道在當時啦台灣確實防疫成績啦是全世界肯定光是海外的台灣人跑回台灣國內回來避難了"},{"start":7079.202,"end":7104.776,"text":"當時估計就至少100萬有能力都跑回台灣來台灣那時候200多天是零確診是全世界最安全的地方當時疫苗剛...就是說剛需要注射疫苗的時候啦國民黨還強力要求說不可以歧視中國疫苗你剛有提到嘛 對不對要求大家要...這個政府要進口中國疫苗來打中國人自己都不打他們的疫苗啦"},{"start":7105.632,"end":7133.16,"text":"有能力的中國人啊他們都他們還叫打輝瑞啦他們自己的疫苗他們也不敢打但不管如何啦回歸到今天在黨再來搞這個所謂的高端疫苗啦什麼契約啦完全就是為了選舉操作完全為了要轉移焦點那既然會已經開了民進黨協助會才開得成要求要開會的是國民黨"},{"start":7135.76,"end":7163.995,"text":"自己的立委也不來開會還是民進黨幫他動員現在會議才開了什麼說疫苗 疫苗也不是沒有討論過我剛就提過啦這兩年多來開了幾十次會議在當時啦 委員會調閱的時候啦立法院委員會的每一個立委都看過契約啦他們說有土匪啦土匪的部分我認為主要就是價格啦 數量等那些東西嘛"},{"start":7164.91,"end":7187.53,"text":"後來高端自己也有片面的一些公布那我再說如果他真的他們公司拒絕公布那5年後這個東西大家還是看得到但是如果契約有限定就像我們剛提的AZ高端說5年Normal Vax 7年BND要求10年莫德納要求我們永遠不能公布"},{"start":7189.485,"end":7217.779,"text":"那我搞不懂大家可以要求災難各要求政府去做一個違反契約違法的事情嗎就這麼簡單啊是不是這樣 任何人都有可能執政啊任何政黨執政你可以簽一個合約然後你自己違背違背跟這個契約這顯不合理嘛但是重點資訊啊也不是沒有討論過"},{"start":7219.892,"end":7235.533,"text":"那不是這樣?所以吼,你今天吼,沒關係啦,這是你行政院長的職責啦,你到我們立法院來,你就把該解釋的解釋,該說明的說明。但是你講的再好,說明的再清楚,這些東西,他們還是不會接受。"},{"start":7236.683,"end":7256.861,"text":"這院長不要收集我不是收集我是覺得台灣人的生命是很重要 健康的保護是很重要那在這樣的一個情況下我們真的是希望我們草野都能夠團結一致使得台灣的防疫工作做得越來越好不要去抹黑台灣的這一個很難得做出來的這個好疫苗"},{"start":7257.381,"end":7283.104,"text":"然後使得很多的民眾因為他被抹黑的關係沒有辦法使用而喪失了很多的生命這一件事情我到現在說老實話我是沒有辦法接受的啦好 謝謝啦 一定辛苦你啦我們一定努力的按照委員的意見在這裡來好好回答問題選舉到了都會發生這些奇奇怪怪的事情我也希望我們全民大家團結一致抗議"},{"start":7283.604,"end":7307.457,"text":"在這裡我還要再呼籲一下希望大家都能夠去打XBB的COVID-19的預防針因為中國大陸現在有JN1新的病毒株出來這個病毒株這個XBB的疫苗才會有效以往打的不會有效果那我也希望大家不要再去抹黑然後大家好好的去做好這個預防的接種那才是全民之福啦好 謝謝院長 謝謝榮華部長謝謝主席"},{"start":7315.609,"end":7317.131,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進我以為"},{"start":7337.884,"end":7362.827,"text":"今天老柯一向老謀深算老君懼華要同意我們來開歷史會其中必有詐以為說要公開了要讀我們的嘴要公開了原來都沒有了原來今天來這一本就是什麼這一本叫做陳建仁替高端"},{"start":7364.804,"end":7390.102,"text":"擦肢模糊報告書啦貴為行政院長自甘墮落成為高端的salesman開口閉口高端我贊都我贊台灣我贊都我贊喔台灣他就贊啊別人不行啊3加11的破口不要忘了死了多少人死了多少人高端到現在為止走不出去啊"},{"start":7391.141,"end":7400.699,"text":"國際沒有承認高端不要忘了他到現在為止沒有做第三期喔院長你不要當了院長來請院長來院長請"},{"start":7409.562,"end":7434.547,"text":"委員謝謝你請我上來我還以為你不讓我有講的機會實際上你上來講的是完全不正確我沒有叫你講先不要講OK你尊重我在這裡是我的時間是我的時間院長大家原來你上台大家覺得你多少一個學術良心你中研院這麼高的位置這麼高的學術高度我剛才講的都是自習講完你不要插嘴可以嗎請你不要插嘴尊重我"},{"start":7435.247,"end":7455.453,"text":"那你給我講話的機會我讓你講話再講今天前面的委員今天為什麼這個會賴清德自己講的是賴清德先Kick Go賴清德說要公開高端疫苗到昨天還講要公開是賴清德要公開"},{"start":7457.093,"end":7476.743,"text":"不要忘了什麼政治鬥爭什麼之類的我們是跟著去說你看民調臺灣的人民70%的人希望公開所以才今天要講臨時會來 院長你不要回答你不回答你不要回答來來來問你你有沒有講過高端要公開"},{"start":7484.198,"end":7487.259,"text":"陳建仁說高端公開要同時會同意陳時中嗆嗆你喔 不可以啊徐樂園也嗆你啊"},{"start":7511.431,"end":7529.851,"text":"雖然又上了一課﹚斷章取義﹚他說要高端考量中啊高端不是你們的紅帝勒好像是你們的太上皇一樣欸我不同意高端 高端 欸 什麼東西 欸 來這是不是你講的 陳建仁一月五號講的"},{"start":7532.153,"end":7537.716,"text":"請你針對問題回答說是不是要公開一定要高端同意是不是是不是yes no好這樣就好了來"},{"start":7559.4,"end":7565.764,"text":"高端是行政院的太上皇嗎?你剛才回答你不同意高端公司是民營的公司剛才院長在"},{"start":7575.35,"end":7575.95,"text":"我可以回答嗎"},{"start":7599.976,"end":7607.583,"text":"軍公教連改也是依法辦理而且大法官釋憲的結果是可以進行軍公教改革你相信大法官的解釋還是相信"},{"start":7618.594,"end":7619.255,"text":"你誤解了臺灣的法律"},{"start":7635.384,"end":7660.544,"text":"我告訴你你講說要信守契約只針對高端軍公教不必信守契約啊軍公教不必信守這個承諾而且這是法律欸高端沒有法律好我講給你聽高端在民國110年5月30號重巡樓重大訊息發布他是上櫃公司"},{"start":7663.449,"end":7666.172,"text":"限制條款依採購機關要求就是衛福部要求"},{"start":7677.159,"end":7700.224,"text":"不可以公開所以不是高端不要公開啊找到捏到衛福部要求衛福部沒有要求他重訓是這樣要求重訓是一單方面公告的我們經過衛福部同意叫他公開這個是高端的重訓114年5月30日重訓他說是你們要求他不可以公開"},{"start":7705.305,"end":7713.455,"text":"是你們要求的我們沒有要求阿他這樣寫阿他這樣寫必須要我們通過我們的同意他就可以寫阿你沒有就針阿你沒有就針阿"},{"start":7716.479,"end":7736.45,"text":"我不是他在這個證券的這個主管的機關他是你太上皇嗎什麼叫太上皇現在是民主時代哪有什麼太上皇現在行政院委員部自導自演你叫他不可以公開結果現在說公開要他同意現在這個事情"},{"start":7737.39,"end":7762.364,"text":"高端是民營公司,難道民營公司政府隨便要怎麼樣就可以怎麼樣嗎?叫做全台灣的民營公司要怎麼樣去生存這是他一念之詞,問負部沒有叫他不可以公開"},{"start":7763.044,"end":7790.349,"text":"委員你不要用高端的重訓來...奇怪 重訓 高端的事奇怪 他公開資料欸拜託這是公開資料錯誤的資料來來來 黃主委黃主委來來講講一下重訓 黃主委怎麼處理重訓儘管會主委他的重訓居然是一文不值啊儘管會主委是幹什麼的來來來 黃主委講一下重訓怎麼處理"},{"start":7791.973,"end":7813.538,"text":"那他公布是真的假的你們要不要查核這個就是他當委員您剛才垂詢的事情我不太瞭解他的背景你去瞭解好不好你去瞭解假如即便這樣來我在你可以請回好不好就居然"},{"start":7824.596,"end":7852.673,"text":"來 我們來看喔 下一張上一張我們可以 我們來可以看了可以看為什麼這裡面你一定不能公開為什麼一定不能公開他又沒有要外銷他只有一百零一個買主就是衛務部他去年的一到七月份營業額是零啊靠著"},{"start":7859.871,"end":7874.317,"text":"報告 報告委員高端的長病毒疫苗已經上市對 你完全不懂高端的情況而且現在 委員我可以講了吧"},{"start":7876.001,"end":7900.13,"text":"你剛才講的這一些說高端賣得很少怎麼樣但是呢你不要忘掉高端沒有但是高端我剛才講過世界衛生組織跟高端有要進轉但是高端的疫苗確實高端的COVID-19疫苗確實保護了台灣300萬人的生命"},{"start":7904.013,"end":7915.878,"text":"這個你不可以否認因為它的效果就是跟BNT跟莫德納一樣好啊那你現在抹煞了這種事情就是因為很多人這樣的抹煞才會使得台灣的產業沒有辦法"},{"start":7925.201,"end":7940.807,"text":"我等一下給你一系列的東西你現在就講 下次講國民黨哪一位立委說要進口中國疫苗哪一位你說你在這裡分放假訊息啊你就是假訊息中心陳院長你怎麼可以這樣子啊這樣子沒有辦法討論事情啊要來講的是事實當時有多少人主張要進入中國"},{"start":7950.331,"end":7951.552,"text":"國民黨團提案說我們進口全世界"},{"start":7969.232,"end":7993.116,"text":"包括中國的疫苗就是包括中國疫苗啊你講的就是中國疫苗啊世界衛生組織核准的疫苗就是有中國的疫苗所以你們要是主張中國疫苗啊因為你要世界衛生組織核准的就是中國疫苗所以你是有主張啊所以你剛才自己講了有啊"},{"start":7993.576,"end":8008.779,"text":"你說進口世界衛生組織合格的疫苗就包括了中國的科興跟中國的國藥所以你這樣主張難道不是嗎你這個是假訊息你自己世界衛生組織合格的就包括中國疫苗"},{"start":8009.591,"end":8034.539,"text":"什麼會沒有 你告訴我世界衛生組織可不可的疫苗有沒有中國疫苗 有沒有 有啊 確實是有當然有 但是也有中國的疫苗啊所以你們也是主張會進入世界衛生組織的list裡面嘛所以我沒有報告小訊息 是你自己講的是你講說你們主張世界衛生組織的疫苗通通可以進口"},{"start":8035.629,"end":8042.671,"text":"那世界衛生組織通過的疫苗就是包括了科興跟國藥假查為什麼明明他說700塊才會殺你啊為什麼2881平均840這不是圖利就是罵你喔這是笨蛋"},{"start":8059.543,"end":8087.137,"text":"這不是文章你那個7百塊你那個7百塊是Tag Average台灣當中買3千萬這個疫苗是想說大概要7百塊委員不要忘掉AZ疫苗是很便宜的AZ疫苗是很便宜的那個我們剛才講到的中國的疫苗那種很簡單的做法的還有那個高階的疫苗像高端的是不一樣所以這是說一下你7百塊錢那個是錯的消息"},{"start":8087.984,"end":8093.226,"text":"剪調是我不同意這件事情你這樣講的話我不同意剪調怎麼會是行政院開的你這樣講不對嘛"},{"start":8112.254,"end":8114.176,"text":"委員不要選舉到了到處抹黑啦沒有意思的是你講的"},{"start":8133.834,"end":8143.138,"text":"你真的不是圖利就是飯桶講到你痛處所以你跟我吵架沒有我沒有飯桶我沒有圖利你飯桶或是圖利我可以講嗎我可以講嗎不是圖利不可以講"},{"start":8161.818,"end":8165.599,"text":"你對廢死態度怎麼樣財務委員說廢死不是目標陳菊人權會成立廢死的推動工作項目"},{"start":8190.868,"end":8220.391,"text":"有院長說廢除死刑是我們努力的目標啊所以民進黨推動廢死在路上在路上在哪裡在路上在路上啊黨綱把它查一查有廢死啊今天來講為什麼可以拖28個38個3738 37都一樣whatever很多為什麼這樣就是因為你們用一個叫死刑執行規則這不是法律啊"},{"start":8222.181,"end":8226.906,"text":"在這裡公開呼籲大家反對被死的人票投侯友宇、張紹康"},{"start":8244.984,"end":8245.305,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8272.625,"end":8276.572,"text":"休息10分鐘休息之後繼續進行執行現在休息"},{"start":8912.93,"end":8913.07,"text":"邱委員長"},{"start":8937.233,"end":8955.253,"text":"我想在這三四年來大家臺灣的防疫非常的成功在各個各界還有人民全民的配合支持下會說是達到了一個我在2021年曾經五月的時候曾經寫一個文章在這個"},{"start":8957.634,"end":8982.624,"text":"臺灣news也是這次到我們臺灣將要面對一個會創造一個臺灣光榮的時刻接下來在政府的領導之下全民的努力之下我們做到了看下一站那我站在這個立場我必須要來肯定我們全國醫療同仁過去的努力以及我們政府怎麼樣跟"},{"start":8983.855,"end":9000.932,"text":"一介來合作的很簡單的跟院長跟他說明一下首先我們非常感謝我們蔡總統一直在防疫的一個工作裡面一直支持我們不管我們什麼需求只要跟總統講他其實都會盡全力來努力"},{"start":9002.059,"end":9029.89,"text":"我們也感謝陳副總統當時領導建立一個非常溫馨、智慧、有專業的一個防疫的模式其實是帶領我們醫界走向一個醫療堅定、醫療核心價值以及站在人民需求的立場上來創造一個更好的醫療防疫的能力請看下一張那在這幾年當中我們也真的非常感謝陳副總統其實他一直深深的"},{"start":9031.059,"end":9038.176,"text":"以他醫師的專業以他過去的經驗一直在指導我們EJ甚至也多次到我們醫師工會"},{"start":9040.178,"end":9061.853,"text":"來這邊做現場的一個互動指導那如果有任何的需要其實或者他想到要指導我們什麼的話其實我們是溝通無礙所以在防疫的過程當中賴副總統對我們醫界貢獻是非常的大那當然行政團隊在蘇院長的領導之下我們很多的我的好朋友都是疫情專家"},{"start":9063.214,"end":9077.161,"text":"的投入我深深的日以繼夜在為防疫工作在這邊也特別用醫界的立場來感謝他們的投入那當然醫事公會過去因為醫界總是台灣珍貴的資產"},{"start":9080.121,"end":9103.793,"text":"國際百年來就是一直守護人民的健康所以當然一開始還有SARS的經驗SARS在我們陳建仁老師還有很多前輩的指導之下一切學到了很好的經驗所以一開始的時候我們一切就很擔心就立誓說不能有任何的醫護人員在受到傷害相對的就不能有人民受到傷害所以我們基本上全國"},{"start":9105.895,"end":9131.173,"text":"24縣市的醫治工委全部推收日理企業在做防疫的工作以外大概每一個禮拜我們都會開一個全國性的醫治會議然後看看政府有來配合政府的政策把落實到所有全國各鄉鎮的任何一個角落有疫情有狀況我們在社區就給他鎖住最好的一個防疫的一個陣線那比如說我們在"},{"start":9132.586,"end":9161.278,"text":"人員醫院比較緊迫的時候我們可以看下面的部分其實我們也發動了全國的也是在總統的指導之下基層醫師在出來拚因為醫院緊緊緊繃、人力緊繃還有很多重症需要治療所以我們就動員了四大方向當然也請奧比奧科醫學會來做指導全國來做篩檢的工作當然我們因為人心會需要穩定"},{"start":9162.029,"end":9186.988,"text":"除了我的老師陳建仁院長給我們全國很大的心理的一個支持以外我們也要給他們做身心壓力的一個照顧這個我們請精神醫學會來幫忙另外在社區還是很多預防保健及慢性的疾病的管理及家級安寧照顧等等的一個照顧其實在我們也請家庭醫學會動員來指導我們跟基層醫師來做"},{"start":9190.973,"end":9218.405,"text":"最後就是我們的一個社區打疫苗的事情我們請兒科醫學院他們比較會打疫苗來做所以這樣有動員萬民的基層醫療這樣做那這個過程當中我也感謝我們陳建仁老師在這樣的一個工作裡面給我們最大的支持那當然後續完成的六大任務這一次這幾年來最重要就是不管是PCR的採檢還有就是演技的一個診療大家應該知道這個"},{"start":9219.728,"end":9232.682,"text":"當台北市在疫情緊繃的時候,一天有1萬個感染者這1萬多只要有20隻跑到醫院去,醫院急診就崩潰了但是我們政府有一個很好的政策,就是居家的一個醫療,視訊醫療"},{"start":9236.519,"end":9238.44,"text":"那當然就是在疫苗的追踪其實也感謝陳"},{"start":9266.872,"end":9267.872,"text":"當然這樣的成果我們"},{"start":9297.014,"end":9326.181,"text":"也不只在國內所處我們只要分享給我們世界各國那剛好我們台灣醫師會跟世界醫師會互動非常好所以我們的專家把我們台灣的很多經驗也分享到世界各國所以世界醫師會更加肯定我們台灣在過去醫療的水準甚至防疫的水準都是一流的更加的堅定支持我們台灣一定要參與WHO的活動所以大家的防疫成果其實是"},{"start":9327.003,"end":9353.862,"text":"幫我們臺灣打下了很多的江山那我也曾經在2021我擔任這個亞大19個國家醫師會的總會長我們也把我們的經驗分享給亞洲19個國家讓他們能夠防疫的更好亞太的安全當然是大家努力的那同時也在2021年的9月在臺灣開的西貿大會裡面我們把過去大家努力的經驗 心血"},{"start":9356.092,"end":9378.78,"text":"呈現在有一個叫做臺北宣言發表在國際間最近也得到WHO世界議事會世界議事會跟WHO息子相關要我們把它正式在REVISE 變成世界級我想都是我們政府民間還有各個專業團體大家一起努力貢獻的一個結果請看下一張那請問"},{"start":9383.73,"end":9410.387,"text":"院長有沒有對前面這些工作要不要跟我們醫療團隊或者是講幾句話我想台灣在過去2020年開始連續三四年的這個期間我們真的要謝謝我們邱太偉委員還有我們醫事公會甚至全國防疫還有醫療第一線的工作同仁們的辛勞大家的努力確實使得"},{"start":9411.428,"end":9411.648,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":9441.408,"end":9460.111,"text":"臨時會議員："},{"start":9460.111,"end":9489.923,"text":"臨時會議員："},{"start":9490.123,"end":9515.32,"text":"新北市跟北市因為有所謂的萬華事件的關係所以這個疫情曾經告急在這樣的一個情況下也幸好我們在新北市跟台北市的醫師們大家都積極來努力做好疫調做好相關的醫療照顧我記得當時這兩個市的市長還說我們來封城好了我們沒有辦法做疫調沒有辦法做好"},{"start":9516.04,"end":9540.371,"text":"在那樣的一個情況下完全束手無策要放棄原來的防疫措施幸好我們所有的醫事人員還有第一線的防疫人員大家很積極的去做好這個工作結果我們把Alpha的這個疫情也控制住全世界都大為驚豔我們當時的接種率很低的情況下就是靠著很好的精準疫調精準篩檢精準的"},{"start":9540.931,"end":9541.031,"text":"主席"},{"start":9561.772,"end":9588.17,"text":"好 謝謝院長陳老師的一個鼓勵以及對全國醫療團隊所有環醫的工作等等的一個再度的鼓勵那其實這些成功其實是其來有自當然這個努力我也要感謝我們協熱人部長在這過去幾年當中次長的任內跟我們醫界攜手合作我們到哪裡他就到哪裡一樣的"},{"start":9589.355,"end":9611.6,"text":"來做一種防疫的工作在這邊特別感謝我們謝部長那我要講的就是前面的努力其實直擊於臺灣的珍貴所以臺灣應該要更加來和諧更加的來互相攜手來把所有過去大家的努力累積的老幹心之傳承好繼續守護這個臺灣像我剛剛這個圖就是"},{"start":9615.236,"end":9640.705,"text":"我們其實臺灣百年來醫者就是關懷人民跟社會的情懷那我也記得我的老師臺大醫學院的前院長謝伯仁教授其實我這30年來所有在不管在醫師公會或者是在立委案上我都跟隨他的理念他是一個不求名利只求臺灣好的人在過去他也跟陳建仁教授非常合作在推動很多很多到現在"},{"start":9642.254,"end":9647.098,"text":"臺灣有這樣的資產,我們大家未來可以珍惜守護臺灣,讓臺灣的專業發揮,我想是人民之福"},{"start":9666.291,"end":9680.837,"text":"那小弟我大概在去年也是借領臺大退休的所以我現在是臺大的名譽教授那但是我想未來我想我們有更多更多臺灣更多的醫療專業的職員這是臺灣的一個要珍貴的因為我們的訓練百年來就是讓我們怎麼樣關懷人民"},{"start":9686.351,"end":9713.483,"text":"所以這中間我還是因為我算是今天應該是很榮幸又有機會來這邊發言應該是我在立法院最後一次公開發言我在這邊還是要表達說臺灣過去百年來醫療人員對人民對社會的一個貢獻那現在的一個制度方面我們也希望未來怎麼樣改善一個更好的醫療環境那藉著這樣的一個疫情的一個疫後我們就"},{"start":9714.394,"end":9715.814,"text":"我上次也有建議其實在後疫情時代"},{"start":9743.749,"end":9769.182,"text":"我們怎麼樣其實世界各國都在善待醫事人員投入必要的醫療資源因為他們都站在疫情當中守護人民的健康第二個就是說如果在健保方面也是臺灣的蠻力度高但是對醫療人員是承擔比較重如果總而沒有辦法隨醫療需求來承受是不是應該要怎麼樣來健康投資這個是我們未來以後要嚴肅面對的問題"},{"start":9771.82,"end":9791.62,"text":"第三個在基層醫療社區醫療怎麼樣加強他們的量能跟數位的能力我想以後未來我希望建設一個健康台灣裡面這幾點都可以請我們執政部團隊未來好好的針對這個來努力那我也希望執政團隊把這個內陸記錄將來"},{"start":9794.714,"end":9821.164,"text":"這是議界的心聲當然最後一個小小的請求就是我們112年第二季第三季平均點子0.9但是其實希望在二三季都能不動浮動點子因為有些平均點子還是有些點子會不到0.9還是很辛苦那診所只要沒有到0.9它其實是很難經營下去這個也拜託行政院這邊也在後續再繼續的一個努力請問下一張"},{"start":9822.406,"end":9838.293,"text":"最後雖然今天有三個主題但是我希望不要影響到我們對防疫的成果臺灣的努力臺灣人的光榮衷心感謝防疫工作的研發政策研擬實務防疫的團隊及全民的支持跟配合感謝大家 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝邱委員接下來請王委員 洪威執行"},{"start":9859.315,"end":9859.575,"text":"王委員 早安"},{"start":9884.281,"end":9911.177,"text":"院長先請教剛才您回答邱太元委員的時候您有特別提到那兩個市長就是疫情的時間沒有做好請問一下你所指的兩位市長是指哪兩位當然就是臺北市的市長跟新北市的市長在當時萬華地區產生了這一些老人茶室產生的傷口的情況你認為萬華是破口嗎"},{"start":9912.628,"end":9927.473,"text":"最主要的情況呢在當時的這個事件一發生的時候呢你剛才講的說講的是臺北市跟新北市長就是講柯文哲和侯友宜是吧是啊他們是在當市長對"},{"start":9929.827,"end":9947.502,"text":"剛才因為在之前幾個在答詢裡面院長認為今天的臨時會是跟選舉有關但是我覺得在這個場合院長特別針對另外兩個現在總統候選人去指控我覺得這是行政不中立"},{"start":9948.223,"end":9948.763,"text":"我是講事實委員我會回答嗎"},{"start":9967.975,"end":9969.376,"text":"主席 我可不可以質詢 可以嗎 來"},{"start":9983.503,"end":10007.795,"text":"因為這個問題蠻重要因為剛才我也有注意到我們賴世保委員也特別提到了也就是高端的合約能不能公開那麼因為我們現在的說法是因為這是廠商要求那麼廠商沒有同意那可能包含院長跟我們那個王必勝署長可能講法不一樣說要股東會董事會好不管"},{"start":10008.855,"end":10018.902,"text":"我們政府的說法是因為這是要看高端就是廠商願不願意同意但是在110年5月30號"},{"start":10025.006,"end":10047.964,"text":"因為高端是上櫃公司他發表重訊提到說有關於限制條款是依採購機關要求合約其他細節不予公開剛才賴世寶委員有特別問到這件事情對不對那薛部長的回答是說他要怎麼講他也沒有問過我們政府所以部長我請問他這個說法是正確的還是錯誤的"},{"start":10053.206,"end":10054.806,"text":"所以部長很明確的告訴我們這個重訊的訊息是錯誤的是不是"},{"start":10078.95,"end":10082.273,"text":"請教因為我剛特別提到他的重訓時間是民國110年5月30號已經長達兩年半這樣錯誤的訊息請問一下"},{"start":10095.046,"end":10111.502,"text":"我們的衛福部是否曾經要求他更動或者曾經去告他說你這個根本是錯誤的訊息衛福部有沒有做這些事我們在那個之後就發文給這個高端請他來公開合約"},{"start":10112.683,"end":10114.284,"text":"所以我要問一件事來 部長"},{"start":10134.977,"end":10153.379,"text":"既然這個訊息是錯誤的為什麼衛福部在這麼長的時間裡面沒有去告高端你都去告立委了你為什麼不告高端不敢告嗎我為什麼要去告高端因為那個不是我們的權責"},{"start":10154.72,"end":10171.442,"text":"這個就是錯誤訊息啊他錯誤訊息有主管機關可以去處理好來來來為什麼把金管會主委找來了所以你把你不敢告高端現在請那個主管機關那請問一下我們金管會主委這樣錯誤訊息我們有去處罰他嗎有去處分他嗎"},{"start":10172.415,"end":10177.259,"text":"那所以我今天在這個質詢裡面衛福部長說這個是錯誤的但是衛福部不去告他金管會會處理嗎當時並沒有特別人指出當時所以貴買中心對我現在直接說那現在金管會會立刻去處理嗎讓證交所去罰他"},{"start":10201.786,"end":10202.106,"text":"部長為什麼要請您上來?"},{"start":10229.554,"end":10254.347,"text":"我就認為在高端的合約已經引起這麼嚴重的爭議那麼大家舉國都在覺得說為什麼不公開連賴清德現在我們的副總統我們的民進黨的總統候選人都說他覺得應該公開啊可是現在呢我們整個行政院把賴副總統的話當成空氣一樣他現在從講完今天已經第10天了"},{"start":10255.367,"end":10277.961,"text":"到現在為止也沒有公開我們開臨時會還是不公開那我就覺得非常不解我們到底在怕高端什麼連這樣違反這個違反根本是錯誤而且損害政府威信的訊息也沒有人在處理所以部長你在這邊我直接的要求我們法務部去調查今天衛福部有沒有獨職"},{"start":10279.122,"end":10280.443,"text":"王國元你要不要去告"},{"start":10305.377,"end":10318.294,"text":"這不是法務部的職責對於有沒有涉及刑事責任是由檢調機關他們來負責所以法務部是負責行政業務過去我知道檢查機關也曾經調查過"},{"start":10320.717,"end":10323.238,"text":"相關的案件有63件之多"},{"start":10337.281,"end":10357.792,"text":"我真的覺得很奇怪我們政府為什麼對高端這樣的莫可奈何到底在怕高端什麼所以我剛剛講我們學院院部長都敢告立委為什麼不告高端我是你我立刻告高端亂講話怎麼說是我不讓你公開明明是你高端說不能公開好再來看一下時間"},{"start":10361.357,"end":10383.031,"text":"高端昨天也又發布訟訊 裡面畢仁在下我也在裡面他說他要提告我提告我跟另外三位候選人說談到有股東名冊的問題我時間有限 我今天就不請經濟部長上來我覺得真的笑死人"},{"start":10384.284,"end":10400.399,"text":"你們不要天天怕高端 高端只會爛速股東名冊去查一下銀行法銀行法裡面210條清清楚楚的告訴你股東名冊可以怎麼取得我想搞不好蔡部長是清楚的"},{"start":10401.419,"end":10424.985,"text":"所以對於高端這樣不敢公開只會濫訴的一家公司然後呢我們對他予取予求所以我就在想你高端到底是何方神聖那我想請問一下我們陳部長部長你當時在2016年的時候您有跟蔡英文總統搭檔那時候你是副總統候選人"},{"start":10426.405,"end":10447.997,"text":"您有收受過高端或高端股東或高端他們之前的前公司前身等等的政治獻金嗎有嗎沒有啊我根本我只是參加高端的臨床實驗而已你沒有嘛對不對沒有我在這邊也幫你背書我查過了您沒有但是啊來看一下我剛才講"},{"start":10452.708,"end":10474.212,"text":"高端的股東名冊並不難取得根據相關的法律是可以取得這個是之前侯漢廷議員所公布的相關的高端股東的捐款這個大概就是所有政治人物所以我剛才說我幫陳建仁院長也背書我們查過了"},{"start":10478.734,"end":10498.613,"text":"當時2016年您參加副總統是候選人那一次你們沒有接受過高端的任何的政治獻金但是在2020年蔡英文總統賴清德副總統就有接受到高端股東的政治捐獻可以看看這裡面洋洋灑灑"},{"start":10500.434,"end":10523.136,"text":"這裡面包含縣市長 包含立法委員 包含議員高端股東有4萬多人你這4萬多人你再怎麼去找還是找到有一些願意做政治獻金的人你這樣單挑高端股東這樣來講我覺得是不公平這是剛才部長跟你咬耳朵我要講的是我不解的是為什麼今天我們都召開臨時會了"},{"start":10524.938,"end":10546.711,"text":"召開臨時會是正確的雖然馬上過幾天確實就有大選但是在立法院召開臨時會這本來就是一個民主國家民主政治的程序然後我們所有的立法委員比如像邱太元委員他覺得他非常珍惜今天的質詢我看了也非常感動"},{"start":10547.711,"end":10548.211,"text":"我可以回答嗎"},{"start":10568.493,"end":10568.893,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10585.607,"end":10587.928,"text":"政府誠信很重要但是政府的威信也很重要我剛才特別提"},{"start":10611.86,"end":10628.445,"text":"所以政府的微信我們有跟高端講我跟高端講希望高端能夠來公開沒有怕高端啦這家公司沒有怕他為什麼要讓他予取予求沒有讓他予取予求你如果這樣講我就你如果這樣兇我就不同意了"},{"start":10628.925,"end":10629.105,"text":"法務部長"},{"start":10649.852,"end":10664.947,"text":"法務部長我想請教一下在之前我們的行政院副院長鄭文燦副院長他有涉及他就是影射他的就是帶女人開房間的這個影片外流我們也在司法法治委員會裡面討論過我想請問這個案子結案了嗎"},{"start":10668.987,"end":10694.686,"text":"應該還沒有 因為在檢察機關偵查中是 它是偵查中案件 對不對對那但是呢鄭文燦那個影片後來刑事局他有他的整個的檢驗結果說是不是身為製作 對不對有沒有公布還包括調查局也有他做鑑定所以他們兩個偵查單位他們也是把成果有報到地檢署"},{"start":10695.216,"end":10700.04,"text":"但無論如何鄭文燦他的影片他的檢驗結果是公布了剛才部長也說這是偵查中案件同樣的"},{"start":10725.299,"end":10745.582,"text":"今天我們立委羅智政委員他的涉及性愛影片現在事實上調查局已經完成了檢驗可是呢地檢署調查局說這是偵查中案件不能公布那為什麼同樣鄭文燦要公布然後羅智政不公布"},{"start":10747.137,"end":10756.932,"text":"這是什麼標準?都沒有公布,都沒有正式的對外公布,如果在檢察官的偵查當中,檢察官他會受到偵查不公開的檢查"},{"start":10760.16,"end":10784.785,"text":"鄭文燦自己都公布了他自己都公布了所以我要講的是所以我一直在講說國家有國家的制度所以如果今天鄭文燦的影片他也是偵查中案件他可以公布為什麼羅志政的影片要以說偵查中案件不公開那這個就有隱瞞的問題"},{"start":10815.177,"end":10816.918,"text":"謝謝王委員 接下來請蔡委員試應質詢"},{"start":10835.717,"end":10862.792,"text":"感謝院長能不能請我們陳建仁陳院長就備訓台謝謝院長請蔡委員午安院長好我剛才聽了這個我們國民黨委員的質詢尤其最後一段非常的無裡頭啦在問關於這個AV的事情我跟院長講一下最近我聽到一個笑話跟我講說現在只要在台灣打AV後面連結就是國民黨"},{"start":10863.937,"end":10890.92,"text":"為什麼因為大家會想到說原來上國民黨網站就可以看到關於AV的很多相關資訊我認為說選舉剩下沒有幾天的時間任何一個政黨他應該是要就他的國家政策提出藍圖出來而不是在講什麼AV的事情所以我覺得真的是這是華天下之大績啦好那今天的重點是在於我們整個高端解密的相關的問題我想先請教一下院長我的第一個問題就是說"},{"start":10892.469,"end":10893.931,"text":"臺灣跟哪幾家公司簽訂了疫苗採購合約?"},{"start":10908.274,"end":10916.18,"text":"臨亞有沒有簽訂臨亞當時是因為他有參加臨床試驗所以應該也有嘛對不對也有簽但是那個簽的就是補助他的臨床試驗到臨床試驗而起失敗部長在旁邊我想請教一下您當時擔任的職位是市長嗎政務市長市長來"},{"start":10937.737,"end":10946.322,"text":"政府次長我想請教一下這幾家簽訂合約的公司對不對齁都有沒有簽所謂的保密條款有都有有為什麼"},{"start":10947.162,"end":10949.403,"text":"所以其實大多數跟我們政府簽訂的疫苗採購的合約商"},{"start":10972.645,"end":10988.078,"text":"基於剛才部長講的幾個原則第一個是整個生產的配方第二個就是生產提供交貨的數量及交貨的流程我想請教一下部長就你的專業來判斷為什麼這幾件事情要把它保密起來"},{"start":10989.429,"end":11008.073,"text":"因為這些東西如果洩漏出去的話第一個就是會妨礙他公司在跟其他國家簽的那個價格等等這些的價格或者是採購的速度嘛 時程嘛 對不對會影響到 所以"},{"start":11009.335,"end":11031.741,"text":"如果他洩露出去的話 比方說他跟我們的價格是一個那跟越南的價格是一個 這就互相去做比較那他們公司會受到一些壓力對 或者是說每個地方不同的價格 但是也有不同的交貨的時程那這些事情其實在當下 在做判斷的時間其實是非常短暫的"},{"start":11033.441,"end":11054.309,"text":"當時我記得部長或者我們行政院的團隊在跟相關單位在做或者之前陳時中陳部長在做談判的過程當中可能你可能只有一兩天的考慮時間你如果不談廠商可能就下單給別的國家別的國家可能就去更好的價格去談了而且在這過程當中我們對於其他國家採購疫苗的價格能夠窒息嗎"},{"start":11056.312,"end":11081.413,"text":"你會知道嗎?其實也困難嘛,我們完全不知道委員我也跟你報告一下啦實際上是這樣這個疫苗的價格是完全要看他什麼時候採購比如說我要是first prioritytop priority去採購當然我的價格就要高嘛等我到大量量產的時候的採購當然就會低而且這些廠商也都會考慮到不同的國家的需要性按照他的"},{"start":11081.874,"end":11082.154,"text":"主席"},{"start":11098.996,"end":11100.557,"text":"這完全是莫名其妙的一件事情"},{"start":11128.894,"end":11144.097,"text":"好那剛才部長跟院長講得清楚這些相關的合約都有保密的條款那能不能請我們部長或院長說明一下這些保密條款分別是幾年我講大家民眾非常關心的啦我一個問你就告訴我就好"},{"start":11145.148,"end":11163.518,"text":"第一個大家最關心的就是高端的合約是保密條款幾年5年5年是從2020年還是2021年開始算最後交貨最後交貨5年所以大概就是去年往後去年再往後算在2027年左右吧是不是還是2028差不多在110 116年116年就是2027年"},{"start":11166.838,"end":11195.587,"text":"這是第一個是高端五年嘛好那AZ的話幾年AZ的話也是五年AZ也是五年齁算一樣的話交貨最後一天開始算五年嘛好那另外就是莫德納莫德納幾年莫德納他不同意解密所以莫德納不同意解密所以五年六年後也是不能夠解密就對了對好那另外就是BNT勒BNT十年BNT十年那我就很奇怪了為什麼在野黨沒有來質疑BNT啊"},{"start":11200.284,"end":11215.47,"text":"這幾個東西的採購我不曉得能不能講單價最貴的是誰單價最貴的就是比高端貴的大概就是莫德納、BNT這兩個都更貴那怎麼沒有人質疑說BNT這麼貴為什麼政府沒有跟他砍價"},{"start":11216.929,"end":11244.044,"text":"感覺好像這些質疑的人好像沒有人提這個質疑是不是那些人那些人可能跟BNT有勾結囉是不是這個樣子我不知道啊如果要質疑的話我也會質疑啊當時有些人在有當時有些人在push BNT說BNT很好是不是他們是買BNT的股票BNT股票輝瑞也是可以買啊美國的股票就可以買啦那這樣我是不是可以來質疑說請法務部來調查一下台灣有哪一些人去買了輝瑞的股票"},{"start":11245.767,"end":11268.967,"text":"這個邏輯不同吧 部長對 沒有錯那當時在預定要買莫德納等這些AZ的時候的話我們在編列預算的時候都是用一計700塊去編列預算的所以那個700塊的原流是這裡但是後來買到的價格當然就不一樣因為每個廠商提供的"},{"start":11269.768,"end":11285.673,"text":"致詢或者他告訴他的研發成本或者不然就排隊等就像說等到現在買我想一季不用70塊就是這個差別所以我想這第一個要讓國人知道就是說在那個非常短暫的時間點做一個重要的政府官員在做決策是非常困難的"},{"start":11287.287,"end":11306.998,"text":"怎麼樣盡量能夠保衛住國人的健康然後做這樣的決策在預算的可行範圍內我老實講用現在的角度來看那個時間點我覺得是非常苛責沒有道理所以我剛才才會跟部長院長說如果要會講我也會講說現在買更便宜但現在沒有人需要好但是另外我有第二個問題要來請教一下院長跟部長我們的國家隊的問題院長跟部長1922已經停掉了"},{"start":11315.35,"end":11316.591,"text":"對阿我知道是結束所以現在多少人接電話"},{"start":11343.715,"end":11354.062,"text":"如果這樣我請教一下,你們說還留著,我知道是沒有啦就說邊人很少了啦齁我為什麼問這件事情的原因是因為我想請教一下院長跟部長齁最近疫情是不是又起來了"},{"start":11355.026,"end":11355.506,"text":"那我想請教一下院長"},{"start":11383.758,"end":11390.57,"text":"J1在台灣目前有沒有發現案例?那這些案例應該都不是本土還是境外移入的?"},{"start":11397.493,"end":11399.074,"text":"有些國家的疫情似乎又升溫的現象"},{"start":11421.73,"end":11444.672,"text":"這樣的生活現象對於這些國家來台灣的飛機我想請問一下院長有沒有考慮要升高他的防疫檢疫的等級我們目前的話也是知道哪一些國家呢他的疫情的狀況比較嚴重所以呢疾病管制署呢已經針對著這些特定的國家呢進來的時候呢就會加強的一個體溫的測量還有加強這一個症狀的"},{"start":11445.493,"end":11445.513,"text":"臨時委員："},{"start":11466.55,"end":11470.232,"text":"因為剛才部長跟院長提到說有新採購了XBB的疫苗對不對對已經開始打了沒有有已經開始打自費還是公費"},{"start":11497.412,"end":11498.473,"text":"我會建議一下院長跟部長在機場設"},{"start":11526.946,"end":11545.262,"text":"為什麼我們出國的人通常在飛機場要等一到兩個小時以上對不對有那個時間當天就設一個疫苗站那邊很多人都會跑去打疫苗比他跑去醫院打我覺得更方便這第一個第二件事情出國回來進來台灣的人你跟他講可以先打一下疫苗"},{"start":11546.508,"end":11574.849,"text":"我覺得這兩件事情可以給院長跟部長考慮一下擴大我們的施打範圍跟施打率我覺得講這件事情比原比講那個什麼該國民黨開記者會AB的記者會來得更重要才對好那但是在這邊我還是要拜託一下我們的院長跟部長剛才我提到的1922的防疫專線以及第二件事情地方基層醫療院所因為這件事情執行業務衍生的費用我要拜託院長跟部長我覺得這是非常重要的一件事情"},{"start":11576.807,"end":11600.576,"text":"過去這兩年的過程當中我們看到1922的專線確實發揮了穩定人心的一個重要性那我也遇到打電話有去打電話向行政院或衛福在談的事情的人他有聊到另外一個重要議題就是說他覺得好像行政院本身就沒有一個專屬的這樣的一個客服的電話地方政府有1999但中央政府沒有"},{"start":11601.92,"end":11620.144,"text":"中央政府沒有所以我知道說當時在1922打這件事有很多人關於政府的一些相關的議題也都透過1922詢問比如說紓困等等的內容等等為什麼呢因為我遇到這些人有跟我講說他們透過1922詢問的內容的準確度比他們問1999地方政府來得更準"},{"start":11621.209,"end":11641.284,"text":"因為很多地方政府也搞不清楚狀況就跟他說你可能要問中央什麼都推給中央就對了然後好的就說是他的不懂的說推給中央就說中央宣導的不大夠我們也不知道你要問中央政府每次都跟地方政府這樣講我認為這個是非常不公平的一件事情但我認為沒關係中央政府我們就扛起來"},{"start":11644.611,"end":11663.826,"text":"這就是我們跟他們不一樣的地方所以我建議1922這樣的一個系統維持是不是行政院把它檢討一下未來就作為常設性中央政府的一個組織單位關於紓困疫苗等等只要中政府管的事情的內容我覺得都可以能夠讓民眾打電話來問讓他們來了解"},{"start":11665.765,"end":11683.522,"text":"我相信對於解決民間的很多問題民眾的質疑會很有幫助啦否則部長部長我們這邊講了老半天如果看的人只有一萬人看到可能還有另外的好幾百萬人沒有看到啊他還是會同樣的問題繼續來詢問那他如果看到網路上不確實的言論他就以為那是真的啊我們剛剛說不用"},{"start":11684.284,"end":11702.574,"text":"有問題打1922問我們的行政院最準啊所以我認為這是一個非常好一個所謂解釋疑慮的一個管道像剛才我們部長提到的每個合約都有保密期限高端最短欸他們為什麼不要質疑BNT啊我也覺得很奇怪為什麼不要質疑莫德納"},{"start":11703.773,"end":11731.583,"text":"所以我的意思就是說這些事情其實就是要講給民眾知道所以我在這邊拜託一下院長我第二個問題就是說我們的1922專線還有第二個就是醫療基層醫療他們的相關的一個工作的費用我覺得要來增加了因為這幾年我們可以看得到全球化的關係整個醫療或者疫情或者病毒的蔓延是非常跨國的而且我們事實上有時候看不到啊看不到這些疫苗"},{"start":11732.079,"end":11749.946,"text":"等到真的已經發生事情的時候都是透過我們的醫療單位來做協力來處理所以部長我建議就是說這件事情要把它列為非常重要的重點我相信醫師公會跟護理師公會也有跟還有藥師公會也有跟部長提過這個事情好不好"},{"start":11773.439,"end":11774.379,"text":"謝謝蔡委員接下來請吳委員施懷質詢"},{"start":11796.297,"end":11806.899,"text":"高端和衛福部互相踢皮球民眾跟媒體質疑的是到底誰不想公開"},{"start":11827.264,"end":11855.405,"text":"那麼薛部長你可以上來但是不要回答因為你剛才已經回答兩次你可以上台你說這是高端自己公司的公布與事實不符那麼媒體跟社會大眾心中自有評論你已經回答兩次兩個委員的質詢我要問的是既然它不是事實那就影響政府的威信"},{"start":11856.581,"end":11884.993,"text":"他是一個假訊息或者你們最喜歡用的是一個認知作戰那請問從5月20號5月30號公告到一年半以後面臨縣市長選舉了你們在111年的11月3號發了個函問他可否公布"},{"start":11887.335,"end":11897.037,"text":"你們跟高端之間需要用公文來來去去沒有聯絡沒有電話沒有人可以接觸嗎3號發了文他不理你"},{"start":11899.891,"end":11922.596,"text":"22號再發個文說再次詢問你們貴公司可否公開時隔一年半如果他是假的他說的是主管機關不同意如果是假的一年半不處理發兩個文以後我想請問部長一件事選舉前做這個動作縣市長選舉前"},{"start":11925.802,"end":11941.474,"text":"就是被質疑這是為了選情為了縣市長選舉操作那我現在問一個問題就好了你們在11月3號11月20號發兩次文給高端他有沒有回覆"},{"start":11950.434,"end":11962.364,"text":"政府威信何在他一家企業我告訴你我問你可以不可以你不行你回覆我不行依據什麼什麼行就行政府在幹什麼"},{"start":11963.966,"end":11991.286,"text":"這是政府的威信來 院長我們政府管不了一個企業嗎管不了一個公司嗎我想 委員你問得相當好我再重複一次實際上雙方簽訂契約的時候如果有簽訂了這一個保密的條款的時候那我們雙方都應該要來互相尊重你已經回答一個早上了保密條例 保密條款這些我沒有意見我問的是"},{"start":11992.335,"end":12015.501,"text":"我是政府你不過是一家企業我問你可不可以你要回覆我嗎你都不理你政府威信何在好我們再看我認為媒體質疑很多民眾質疑這是一個為了縣市長選舉的選舉操作當人家質疑你們的時候我們政府說我有發文給他是他沒有回答我"},{"start":12016.221,"end":12016.361,"text":"監察院"},{"start":12045.427,"end":12073.472,"text":"接著調查報告出來在時隔兩年了這個報告出來以後請問衛福部做了什麼事哪一個方面我們做很多事你做了很多事我們不知道我們是立法委員媒體不知道社會大眾不知道你做了什麼事所以委員在問的是哪一方面哪一方面就是講這個資訊不公開啊監察院的報告你沒看過嗎"},{"start":12075.129,"end":12100.078,"text":"你看過沒有嗎這個資訊不公開的部分的話就是合約的限制你又在談保密條款這個沒有錯因為政府跟一個民間的企業去簽了合約難道政府說我要用強力的公權力來違約嗎部長你等一下你不要講話我告訴你我不要再跟你談保密條款我們摘下來我在未還委員會第一第二會期我在那裡"},{"start":12101.175,"end":12125.063,"text":"我對這個事情非常清楚我們一再的要求你們那時候口風緊得不得了說什麼都是不可以不可以要怎麼樣怎麼樣好 到現在了110年5月30號高端這個出來了我們還在追照樣不理我們到了一年半以後你們發兩個文縣市長選舉了還剩幾天了"},{"start":12129.814,"end":12157.509,"text":"請他是否可以公開他不理你我現在才知道發兩個結論是他沒回覆你這是政府的威信嗎然後到現在我在外國委員會看過你們提供的資料那時候你還沒當部長塗黑的將近三分之二看的跟沒看一樣這是你們當初的心態"},{"start":12158.897,"end":12168.865,"text":"內清德總統候選人說應該要公開了整個態度批辯那我中間再問一個重要的問題政府權責的問題你這個約裡面到底有沒有除外條款部長你知不知道"},{"start":12189.716,"end":12210.451,"text":"除外條款指的是說什麼時候是可以揭露的嗎對在這一個好像是司法機關在調查的時候我們是可以揭露但是他有一些條件 有沒有除外條款我問有沒有有有那今天這個狀況"},{"start":12212.83,"end":12236.756,"text":"全民都在質疑社會大眾質疑媒體質疑在野黨所有的委員都在質疑有沒有弊案有沒有後面還有等下我問的錄音檔的問題那麼他就是符合除外條款沒有這個案子再等一下我們叫你回答是有可能我沒有說一定有可能有重大弊案"},{"start":12237.748,"end":12238.729,"text":"除外條款的定義是不是這樣"},{"start":12263.305,"end":12279.133,"text":"如果有例外的情形當然就可以來遵照辦理有可能有五重大五必要或者其他影響人民生命安全的這種可能就除外條款就必須生效就法律的定義是不是這樣子"},{"start":12280.27,"end":12305.72,"text":"那我們要看契約還有來比照相關的規定我告訴你全民的認識是這樣有可能發生除外條款生效就拿出來公開現在我不跟你追這個除外條款如果要公開的時候要應用它要公開的時候我們要預先通知當然它有一定的行政程序院長你放心我在公部門40多年"},{"start":12308.823,"end":12331.879,"text":"公布門執行任何事情要有一定的行政程序你剛才也講過我清楚但是我自己問的是有沒有除外條款薛部長說有我就問法務部長除外條款的定義是不是假如有這些可能發生除外條款就應該生效就可以引用除外條款來公開對不對我有沒有說錯"},{"start":12334.5,"end":12361.939,"text":"沒有錯錯但是還是要讓要有一個讓對方通知對方當然當然這是行政程序但是在我們整個對於這一個公開的合約的這件事情我們是覺得說如果能夠雙方能夠達成合意然後一起來公開那是最好但是如果沒有我們這一個局外條款就可以使用我告訴你的是到現在為止是政府對高端一籌莫展"},{"start":12362.634,"end":12391.307,"text":"什麼事情都是高端說的算我們要求發公文他不理我我不回答你奈何不了我現在我們看到的嘛一個早上你的回應除了民進黨級的委員拼命做球給你拼命罵在野黨之外其他人的質詢你都是這種回答所以不需要再說我現在說賴清德副總統現在的總統候選人說應該公開了10天了"},{"start":12392.432,"end":12393.112,"text":"這是他們說的 不是我說的"},{"start":12414.807,"end":12416.089,"text":"我不贊成這樣的講法這是不正確的消息"},{"start":12427.506,"end":12455.945,"text":"你不贊成我沒有意見你當然不贊成但是這是我告訴你這是媒體的反應這些人說的話但是11天了你們到底想不想公開想公開今天開臨時會差一點開不成開不成是因為簽名還沒有簽滿啊對你們想公開我跟委員講得很清楚我今天早上的報告講得很清楚賴副總統想公開政府也"},{"start":12457.056,"end":12458.256,"text":"當這個賴副總統一講了這個話之後薛部長你在上班時間到競選總部去有這張照片"},{"start":12487.396,"end":12505.064,"text":"這是媒體看的不是我講的啊他不是假新聞啊事由這個事你去看什麼人家就說你是政府的官員他是競選總部政務官不要說政務官了所有政府體系的人都應該在選舉中保持行政中立法務部長對不對"},{"start":12506.502,"end":12514.486,"text":"我們是去找柯建銘總召談今天要開臨時會的事件柯總召早上在這邊走來走去委員其實是沒有來要不然你直接問他就知道"},{"start":12533.823,"end":12562.233,"text":"所以實際上這個指鹿為馬不是指鹿為馬等一下 薛部長你跟柯總召兩個人講的話誰能證明我們今天要取信於民嘛那我告訴你的是在場還有一位洪森漢委員你去問他我不要去問他對啊 你又不確證你把這三個人叫出來你把這種東西污衊我我不是污衊你"},{"start":12562.913,"end":12567.517,"text":"我把網路的事情告訴你網路的笑話不是我講的說說這個政府官員去競選總部見這些重要幹部是去篡政"},{"start":12589.85,"end":12608.985,"text":"錯誤的網路錯了網路錯了網路錯網路錯沒關係 薛部長你必須用事實去證明你沒有做這些事有人做夢他有做夢的權利我沒有解夢的義務好 但是你有權利也有義務有責任證明"},{"start":12611.792,"end":12611.912,"text":"主席"},{"start":12626.663,"end":12632.449,"text":"國會黨說要開臨時會就是很緊急的事情所以大家趕快去那裡討論嘛我沒有這樣講我沒有講我這是網路說的我也沒有說你的人格有問題我都沒有說"},{"start":12646.044,"end":12651.754,"text":"委員這是我網路是錯的這是指路為矛的事情當時談的就是說會議院要開臨時會這件事情最後的時間我問一件事"},{"start":12660.017,"end":12679.086,"text":"我們在未還委員會的時候第一第二會期我們提了很多案針對高端的問題針對人民健康的問題針對有沒有圖利的問題我們提了10個案通通被民進黨封殺第一個我們要一個月內擴大採購WHO認證的疫苗4000萬劑提案被封殺我們人數表決不過"},{"start":12684.449,"end":12711.628,"text":"公開3加11完整的會議記錄沒有公開等下我講完嘛第三個國產高端疫苗的緊急使用授權審查我們要求我們的提案應該比照美國FDA全程直播公開也被封殺所以這個就是民進黨執政黨的態度我們讓全民來檢查讓媒體來看好不好委員要世界維生"},{"start":12730.029,"end":12736.922,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員報告宴會上午執行到此為止下午2點30分繼續專案報告就執行現在休息"},{"start":21618.479,"end":21632.304,"text":"報告委員會 現在繼續開會對行政院院長專案報告繼續質詢紅委員 孫漢志質詢以書面提出請行政院以書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報現在請由委員預覽質詢"},{"start":21644.641,"end":21646.944,"text":"謝謝院長 有請行政院陳院長陳院長請"},{"start":21654.912,"end":21657.553,"text":"保密條款的文字內容我等一下的看一下"},{"start":21685.345,"end":21686.246,"text":"保密條款的文字內容請"},{"start":21701.632,"end":21704.473,"text":"本合約所謂機密性資料具包括採購的單價、原物料價格等商業採購相關訊息取得的方式"},{"start":21725.253,"end":21735.187,"text":"包括不限於口頭、文字、書寫、錄音等等那機密性資料取得之日期不論其為本合約簽署日之前或之後均屬之"},{"start":21736.485,"end":21738.007,"text":"蔡總統拍了一部小電影還蠻好看的有"},{"start":21757.984,"end":21787.075,"text":"有看了嗎對那因為現在不是只有蔡總統在路上蔡總統還在錄音帶上所以我才會接下來要請教一下因為我們法務部其實在去年年底就已經講了說他依照這個他們最高檢就從去年的12月11日到今年1月5日子全權處理全國性重大假訊息案件而且會指派主任檢察官"},{"start":21788.082,"end":21802.434,"text":"與檢察官負責偵辦,針對影響選舉的假訊息,執法部門、法務部、地檢署、調查局,要立即澄清,迅速下架,溯源追查主權。"},{"start":21811.823,"end":21819.571,"text":"蔡總統的小電影叫《在路上》可是現在變成《在路應帶上》因為最近我們看到我們"},{"start":21820.868,"end":21843.056,"text":"的同事羅智政委員：他被公布的有各種不同的不同的這個資料影音資料有A片的也有裡面就是影射可能是跟蔡總統的對話這些我覺得這個是知識體大知識體大不管是真是假"},{"start":21844.056,"end":21866.209,"text":"這不符合我剛剛念的你們在一開始的時候要有一個打假的假訊息的這個迅速偵辦中心的這個你們重要的意志不是嗎是沒錯吧對不對所以你就不可以說這個是個人隱私啦這是私德問題這已經不是因為"},{"start":21868.306,"end":21875.318,"text":"雖然我跟蔡總統不屬於同一個黨派但是他是我的國家元首"},{"start":21876.021,"end":21900.088,"text":"我覺得當它被人家錄音我現在還搞不清楚我還搞不清楚這個錄音帶的內容的真假等等的可是因為裡面有一些內容我知道這也是我們在國防外交委員會常常聽到比如說羅志政委員有時候也會談起的但是我會擔心啊羅志政委員他是當過國防外交委員會的"},{"start":21902.034,"end":21908.999,"text":"這件事情當然是相當的重要所以我今天早上已經講得很清楚這一件事情的話我們完全支持我們檢調單位要來的積極查辦"},{"start":21930.086,"end":21946.617,"text":"並且很快的來掌握相關的這個報導那與殷黨的內容是不是有透露身為或者涉及這個借選都要由鑑識機關來進行相關的鑑識那這個這件事情是相當的重要我相信部長也有這樣的一個看法"},{"start":21947.376,"end":21968.739,"text":"對 我是建議絕對不可以就是因為我們說就像破唱盤一樣跳針一樣說中共借選你用一個中共借選你就遮掩掉很多我們政府該作為而不作為我們自己不認真辦案這個是我再怎麼樣我都無法忍受的沒有 我覺得他們沒有不認真辦案我是支持他們要"},{"start":21969.246,"end":21969.446,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":21987.601,"end":22016.393,"text":"這件事情對他們是謠言的話我們趕快把千萬不要像過去吳敦義的這個錄音帶風波等到這個查出來之後都說這個是假的時候他都已經落選都已經變成制定的現實現在的這個身為的做法相當的多五發八門所以在鑑識的工作上我們也會積極來努力那更重要的就是"},{"start":22016.909,"end":22034.456,"text":"我們在打造這個行動方案行動綱領1.5的時候有構置了一些儀器設備能夠做更精準的這樣的一個鑑識的工作那還有追查這個訊息來源所以這個部分我相信"},{"start":22034.875,"end":22059.993,"text":"我們檢調單位還有這個新市警察局也會來好好的來偵辦所以剛剛院長講到重點身為的技術雖然不斷升高可是倒高一尺磨高一丈但是我們希望現在是磨高一尺我們倒要高好幾丈才可以所以一定要支持包括我們第一線的檢調警都要有足夠的工具"},{"start":22060.373,"end":22060.833,"text":"委員長 部長 支持第一線員警"},{"start":22088.012,"end":22113.315,"text":"有責任的人也要有權利而不要因為有太多政治的考量現在因為這個選舉期間暫時不要有的時候就是要神速我們就是很快的把這個事情他是假訊息馬上公布的話至少不會繼續擴大否則其實我的同事羅志正我覺得他現在也一定很頭痛因為哇"},{"start":22114.556,"end":22134.807,"text":"一下子錄音帶一下子A片然後現在聽說又有20支高清的袋子我覺得對他來講這我們應該減掉要勇敢的負起責任而且我要在這裡跟委員報告就是說我們這個建設的這個設備基本上在很多媒體上都錯誤報導說我們打造1.5的行動綱領"},{"start":22137.928,"end":22142.073,"text":"臨北郝游案件及黨工一千個帳號我們都能夠這樣查出來所以我們會積極來偵辦這件事情查個水落石出"},{"start":22156.067,"end":22157.808,"text":"我們也要請院長跟部長要承諾"},{"start":22170.928,"end":22170.948,"text":"好"},{"start":22199.366,"end":22217.368,"text":"高端是全民買單立委是國防外交委員會包括趙天寧委員的那個小三豐富也是一樣的政府跟司法單位不可以明目張膽的去護短這個我是完全同意的我們完全沒有護短而且我在這裡在跟委員報告"},{"start":22218.369,"end":22228.713,"text":"政府的誠信很重要政府的威信很重要但是政府威信的建立不是像在威權獨裁國家那樣子的壓迫軍機各個企業這樣的話沒有辦法政府有簽約就要維持自己的誠信"},{"start":22237.997,"end":22254.492,"text":"院長我300%同意我們一定要有捍衛我們民主法治的這樣的決心跟能力但是我們絕對不可以用中國界選為藉口然後進行司法界選之時中國有沒有界選的話還需要偵查啦"},{"start":22257.333,"end":22278.155,"text":"還要去偵查當然啦但是有先偵查的就很奇怪啦因為所有的身為的製造我們如果查到這個來源也許是從境外進來的那當然就要跟就像我剛才講的那個林北好遊就是這樣查到境外去再查回來的還有那個黨工的一千個帳號也是這樣查出來的"},{"start":22278.615,"end":22279.035,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":22296.149,"end":22296.81,"text":"我們是一定勿忘勿重"},{"start":22319.13,"end":22322.413,"text":"但是 但是 所有的所有的里長一回來只要到中國大陸回來的話也未免害也未免"},{"start":22340.532,"end":22341.013,"text":"本席即將卸任"},{"start":22359.036,"end":22359.416,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":22380.877,"end":22381.317,"text":"因為預估了"},{"start":22407.893,"end":22408.593,"text":"最後的精算"},{"start":22425.319,"end":22426.321,"text":"我們已經有公布了 有公布了相關單位可以參考"},{"start":22444.104,"end":22446.347,"text":"沒有遠高於大概0.2個百分點"},{"start":22459.09,"end":22459.45,"text":"一年兩點五"},{"start":22480.486,"end":22480.546,"text":"主席"},{"start":22503.412,"end":22526.563,"text":"法律不是這樣寫的啦法律沒有分年齡GPI在那個原來的法律裡面是寫說所以我們可以修法嘛我們可以修法因為你退休退休期就是屬於高竟然要修嘛因為本席本來也希望說你們能夠稍微更敏感一點這些都是我們當時在在這個立法院裡面"},{"start":22527.223,"end":22544.853,"text":"這是年改本來就有的法 修的法來照顧退休的軍公教人員最後當然我時間已經快要用完我還是很關心在死刑存廢上的這些爭論因為我們看到了新北的那個國中生"},{"start":22545.453,"end":22559.351,"text":"他在被狂砍十幾刀之後他那天第一天他送到醫院就輸血就是6萬CC我希望我們的少年事件處理法一定要有配套措施要讓孩子們能夠在"},{"start":22574.673,"end":22579.216,"text":"好 謝謝余委員接下來請莊委員瑞雄質詢謝謝院長有請我們行政院陳建仁陳院長院長請我們衛福部我們薛部長莊委員午安院長午安我想今天這個議題就是關於整個"},{"start":22604.168,"end":22630.268,"text":"今天整個一個臨時會我有很大的一個感慨這個其實在針對我們在相同的地方院會針對整個疫苗專案報告跟指定議題的報告就有三次三次委員會這個我相信薛副長你也最清楚你們就有六次財政委員會六次是釣魚小組"},{"start":22631.889,"end":22639.335,"text":"財政委員會疫苗專報2次經濟委員會1次國安委員會關於疫苗的專報就12次很感激在2022年11月26日九合一的大選到現在2月沒有人要說這個選舉剩4、5天"},{"start":22660.766,"end":22677.701,"text":"這個很明顯就完全就是一個政治上的一個攻防但是本席還是認為說這個議題還是讓院長來講還是最適合因為院長畢竟是公衛出身其實在台灣經過這一場百年大議"},{"start":22678.769,"end":22705.7,"text":"那大家全體上下國人同胞有政府部門帶領那大家共同在團結在抗議我相信大家都盡心盡力的到了這個整個後疫情時代今天排這一場我還特別去問了媒體的朋友說你聽到現在你會覺得怎麼樣四個字冷飯熱炒炒得起來炒不起來不知道但是我要來救教院長就是說"},{"start":22707.688,"end":22736.401,"text":"我的好朋友秋選這間在質詢的時候有問到你一個問題就是說高端疫苗到底有沒有這個整個絕標的一個公告這樣的一個問題我聽了以後我會覺得院長必須要再澄清因為我擔心外面會有所誤解因為按照整個政府的一個採購法裡面涉及到整個機密採購的部分那個到未必會有一定要"},{"start":22737.645,"end":22758.861,"text":"這個決標的一個問題那是不是我很擔心就是說其他的疫苗到底有沒有決標上的公告那還有這早上院長這樣回答是口誤還是幕僚提供的資訊有錯誤的一個地方是不是請我們薛部長這個地方你來再做一個澄清好不好"},{"start":22760.232,"end":22776.08,"text":"謝謝委員這部分應該更精確來講開標、決標都按照程序來決標之後本來我們就是要把資料上傳到工程會的網站"},{"start":22778.325,"end":22804.897,"text":"但是根據政府採購法第61條跟它的施行細則第84條如果涉及到商業機密的這種機密採購的話那我們可以不公告機關可以不公告但是必須要將未刊登的這個絕標的資料傳到仍然要傳到工程會的這個資料庫裡面去"},{"start":22806.94,"end":22807.64,"text":"本席本身學法"},{"start":22834.96,"end":22855.038,"text":"那大家一直在談到說整個高端這個疫苗啊什麼這個整個契約啊要封存30年我聽到這個網絡都在說這個我聽到整個台港一台舖都兩粒大你知道嗎你也不曉得該怎麼樣去講說在台灣這樣的一個假訊期這樣蔓延以後啊機非到最後會成事啊所以不對"},{"start":22855.899,"end":22857.44,"text":"根據雙方的保密協定7月裏面的保密協定是5年"},{"start":22879.229,"end":22881.049,"text":"所以高端採購這樣的一個契約說這個契約30年要封存是一個假訊息 錯的訊息所以"},{"start":22905.95,"end":22926.337,"text":"如果說其他的疫苗的一個採購 你說AZ人不用保密 或是NOVAX不用保密 BNT不用保密 只有高端來保密 這有鬼囉 這我看來就有鬼囉但是如果其他 我就要請教的 BNT是幾年 BNT的話是10年"},{"start":22927.227,"end":22928.368,"text":"當初整個緊急授權EUA"},{"start":22957.287,"end":22973.258,"text":"你現在跟你說那些心渣的委員齁 那不記名在我來看 以現在來看當年的話如果說我是那個委員的話 我也會怕我若跟你投反對 國內需要疫苗 我壓力會大 等於說我在阻擋疫苗我若跟你投贊成 人家又會跟我說我是不是在圖利財團"},{"start":22987.41,"end":22997.428,"text":"這個我倒覺得反而也很麻煩在當時的一個時空背景之下那這一些委員 你說你們當初採取的不記名到底補定 到底再考量一下"},{"start":22998.406,"end":23018.535,"text":"如同剛剛委員所提到的因為現在網路非常的發達所以如果把委員的姓名揭露的話那的確會造成一些困擾但是我們所有的這個會議的資料我們都已經公開只是委員用ABC的代號去取代而已"},{"start":23019.224,"end":23044.732,"text":"所以說當初你們就是說才不記名也有他特殊的一個考量這一些時空因素存在啦我要請法務部長蔡部長也請上來一下就是說向法務部部長請回啦那我一直在想說整個高端裡面我相信很多在黨的朋友會拿出來這樣去講說是不是有圖利或者說這個過程裡面有沒有牽扯到誰貪圖"},{"start":23048.735,"end":23071.222,"text":"請問部長就是說,我們現在查高端,大家去自己檢紀,我們檢方就馬上去做一個查辦,現在有幾件是不起訴的?63件,就已經都查清楚了,沒有不法的情勢。我跟部長報告,今天你做這個案子,如果讓你重新再回到你以前的一個專業的話,你老闆你也不要再燒了。"},{"start":23073.695,"end":23083.698,"text":"今天那個要檢舉啦我今天叫蔡英文啦明天叫蘇貞昌啦再來我叫程時中啦我來叫程建仁院長我來叫薛瑞仁稅務長大家給他創造的補助看到的還是憑感覺的你要怎麼辦?跟委員報告齁阿伯今年一月的時候還有人提出三件所以這三件又默契要辦中間啦所以"},{"start":23101.594,"end":23129.203,"text":"雖然是牽結啦但是牽結是沒有確定力的你如果說懷疑還有證據有涉嫌犯罪可以再提出來那當然有新事實新事證的話司法機關本來就是誤法誤網誤眾這個案子到現在來看的話我反而會認為說國人對有任何貪圖的一個疑慮的話他本來就是希望我們司法機關來做一個查辦可是呢"},{"start":23130.6,"end":23158.072,"text":"碰到選舉的時候再來談這種案件的話我相信大多數人民政委會認為說他再來啊 又因為選舉再來啊這個看了大家也都會很討厭讓我們等個司法機關齁你整天在那裡沒人要死去啦沒人要死去啦但是我在這個地方也要求啦部長如果有任何新事證的話我相信大家在國會裡面啊碰到高端幾乎是被在野黨打的打臭掉啦但是呢"},{"start":23160.097,"end":23185.12,"text":"你說這個案﹖到最後是不是有任何人去涉案的話﹖或者高端的高層的話﹖我要求我們司法機關也必須要勿妄勿縱當然一定會的依法辦事嘛﹖如果有事實﹖有證據來證明﹖那我們當然依法處理是啦暖宿的情形不是只有高端而已很少的啦動不動就告官員瀆職圖利"},{"start":23187.247,"end":23202.708,"text":"我們檢察官大概要花很多的時間都在處理這些案子沒辦法臺灣是一個高度的一個民主的一個社會民眾稍微我記得我以前在當臺北市議員的時候"},{"start":23204.332,"end":23204.712,"text":"蔡部長請回我繼續要來請教院長就是說"},{"start":23232.498,"end":23260.982,"text":"今天既然是高端大家在做這個臨時會大家一直在講說我記得當初在批評高端的時候你看當初也講說這高端哪乎阿水甚至什麼高端跑下去都中無效甚至於講說磨柴害命我要在這個地方我要特別感謝院長因為我前幾天我自己的父親或是院長親自到我家裡面"},{"start":23262.503,"end":23289.907,"text":"我記得我當初我的父親今年90歲當初疫情來的時候大家都打AZ被人打下去後發燒被人打下去後都很難過爸爸等到第1期也去打AZ你再叫他打第1期他安卓打他就不去打他就打疫苗他不來我就是都不來"},{"start":23291.206,"end":23315.503,"text":"我非常感謝就是說其實後來總統還有院長您還有我們部會的所長去帶頭我也不知道說那個主流好不好我也都不知道我的想法是說成見人大人都叫你大人哥你就有公衛背景我們信賴你你打鬧我再找我老伯去我老伯英語這樣我你在拍"},{"start":23317.844,"end":23319.745,"text":"這部份有三點可以跟委員報告第一個就是這個高端"},{"start":23348.318,"end":23373.523,"text":"曾經在巴拉圭跟泰國做過三期臨床試驗而且在巴拉圭取得了EUA另外世界衛生組織也幫高端去做臨床三期的研究是在世界上三個國家來進行後來世界衛生組織也跟高端來"},{"start":23376.237,"end":23398.829,"text":"致有合約來用他的計轉﹖來給其他的國家﹖來可以使用高端的技術﹖那更重要的就是﹖最近一月份的時候﹖很有名的國際期刊﹖叫做新型傳染病的期刊﹖他就刊登了我們臺灣的﹖真實世界的數據﹖發現高端的效果﹖是和莫德納跟BNT是一樣的﹖比AZ還好﹖當然比這個科興跟國藥更好﹖"},{"start":23403.464,"end":23419.058,"text":"所以高端確實是一個很好的有國際認證的好的疫苗很可惜在當時因為大家不斷的抹黑像有些有副作用的人他不想去打反而沒有機會來打高端那這樣一個抹黑反而造成了可以打高端的人"},{"start":23419.638,"end":23448.921,"text":"就放棄了高端那這就是很多的老人家沒有預防接種的理由嘛那這樣子的話就喪失了這個預防打高端的機會的話說老實話我們是相當的不捨啦這樣會使得這些老人家容易死於這個COVID-19而事實也顯示呢臺灣的老人家打COVID-19的比較少我們本來當時的想法高端如果副作用比較小又有這麼好的效果就應該讓怕副作用的人來接種可是沒有因為抹黑太厲害"},{"start":23449.481,"end":23477.362,"text":"所以我覺得某一些人士或者是境外勢力的唱和者這樣的隨便抹黑實際上造成台灣老人家不願意打高端疫苗這也是讓我很心痛的事情所以很顯然這個經過科學認證它不是撫水其實我們也希望國人同胞不要口水來尊重這個科學但是我在這個地方要特別提醒院長"},{"start":23478.101,"end":23501.218,"text":"還有衛福部的就是說針對疫苗的一個不良的反應我相信這一些也很多委員的辦公室也受到民眾的懲罰就施打疫苗以後不是的狀況這些申請的案件因為我國疫苗接種受害的救濟申請的門檻我們算最低所以會特別多我們也希望"},{"start":23532.004,"end":23533.804,"text":"謝謝莊委員接下來請李委員得為質詢"},{"start":23566.252,"end":23569.053,"text":"好 謝謝游院長麻煩請行政院陳院長陳院長請"},{"start":23578.693,"end":23604.969,"text":"陳院長請問高端這個案子是不是中國借選有沒有中國借選我想高端有沒有中國借選當然沒有這跟中國沒有關係但是高端的疫苗確實有跟中國的疫苗來做比較在野黨包含本席在內有誰在這邊提出來要求買中國的國藥跟科興的疫苗你可以講出來嗎"},{"start":23606.863,"end":23618.151,"text":"這一個人數還不少啦那王定宇委員曾經有公布一個數據但是我是尊重我們大院的委員我在這裡就不公開說明啦但是跟大院委員我不會說但是最起碼有一個我可以說啦就是馬英九前總統就有說"},{"start":23631.201,"end":23632.302,"text":"實際上在美國國家衛生研究院"},{"start":23660.626,"end":23665.218,"text":"他在疫情的這一段期間他就有找出來了一段"},{"start":23665.954,"end":23669.915,"text":"因為高端的副董事長有說你講一句話有利人士講一句話比他們講10句還有用"},{"start":23694.221,"end":23709.119,"text":"所以其實您就是高端跟美國國衛院相關的牽線者對不對這個是很重要的一件事情當國家有需要發展一個好的疫苗這個疫苗也證明了是有效的時候我們就應該我們要說你不好"},{"start":23711.221,"end":23714.566,"text":"在高端這個案子裡面,您是關係人還是公正的第三方?"},{"start":23726.124,"end":23744.11,"text":"你今天在這邊幾乎就是高端的代言人高端的關心人啊因為你牽線的嘛不是嗎我是因為這兩個人認識所以你不是公正的第三方對不對我當然是公正的第三方我為什麼不是公正的第三方"},{"start":23744.91,"end":23770.772,"text":"我只是把這個好的這個GENETIC STRUCTURE去建議他來找台灣的學者我沒有什麼這個高端的副董事長在受訪裡面講得非常的清楚嘛沒有所以您不是公正的第三方我是公正的第三方而且你剛才講到的臨床試驗裡面或者是動物實驗所有的東西都登在世界上的一流的期刊"},{"start":23771.572,"end":23783.546,"text":"後來給EUA的免疫橋接是基本上由您來定的調嗎後來衛福部只可以委員你講的完全錯誤"},{"start":23786.489,"end":23786.77,"text":"政府採購了500萬劑"},{"start":23813.294,"end":23835.913,"text":"然後 報廢了將近170萬劑因為有人抹黑嘛 謾罵所以使得他沒有使用啊這就是我剛才講的 使得可以用的人沒有用所以院長 你是輕忽台灣人的智商囉有人抹黑 台灣人就選擇不要打高端是這個意思嗎你是看清2300萬台灣人嗎那個時候請問 那個時候請問這一個在野黨怎麼樣講中共的附和者怎麼樣來講高端"},{"start":23841.337,"end":23851.061,"text":"因為他們擔心高端疫苗的效果科興比國藥好啦那我們來看他的抗筆價嘛我可以請他暫停嗎我要講話好你講來 院長"},{"start":23862.429,"end":23881.337,"text":"高端的營收完全是靠民進黨政府衛福部的採購你去看他的報表因為他是上市公司他的營收又是靠政府給他採購新冠疫苗跟這一次代理韓國的流感疫苗"},{"start":23883.291,"end":23894.981,"text":"你去看他的裁判你不用贊成這是事實這不是假訊息好沒有關係重點是這一個所謂的疫苗國家隊最後是空歡喜一場虎頭蛇尾浪費人民的血汗錢最後失敗收場對不對所以來"},{"start":23907.831,"end":23935.126,"text":"院長你還要講最好疫苗然後什麼都是民進黨執政黨對都是人民的錯在野黨的錯抹黑所以民眾不願意打高端這就是你的結論所以我才說你也不用牽扯這麼多防疫人員降帥無能累死三軍哪三軍我跟你說就是辛苦的防疫人員跟我們2300萬的同胞"},{"start":23944.452,"end":23962.564,"text":"高端疫苗300萬劑 拯救了相近百萬的人口結果你抹煞他說它沒有效果而且全世界都說它是一個好疫苗所以你剛才講的是完全不科學沒有理性依據的說法"},{"start":23967.759,"end":23967.999,"text":"請問一下為什麼不執行"},{"start":23997.713,"end":24012.458,"text":"這難道不是今天公祭明天忘記嗎不是我想此行是不是要執行有一套規則在進行那這一套規則你沒有要讓保護部部長來說明那我就幫他說明所以按照這個規則這些人"},{"start":24019.79,"end":24031.955,"text":"按照我們的這個死刑執行的規則這些人 有些人都還在上訴過程當中所以委員 人命關天 人命關天 人命關天你是公衛的專家 不是司法的專家啦你現在不讓法務部部長上來講"},{"start":24041.594,"end":24059.342,"text":"這就是因為你們覺得你們的講法是不正確的嘛不符合規則當然不能執行三審定言你有沒有聽過三審定言當然有聽過但是可以不可以有上訴可以不可以再重新審理案子可以不可以申請大法官釋憲當然可以啊幫加害人"},{"start":24060.467,"end":24061.828,"text":"來 院長請教一下"},{"start":24091.314,"end":24115.512,"text":"這個賴皮寮跟五月天的事情請問一下您的女公子的房子有沒有國安特勤去守護沒有啊或者警察有沒有去站崗有還是沒有女公子的房子有還是沒有沒有沒有好那請問你贊不贊成國安特勤去站"},{"start":24117.588,"end":24145.791,"text":"賴清德主席賴清德副總統兒子在萬里的賴皮寮你贊不贊成這國安有國安的這個做法那這個要由國安特勤的人來做決定要由國安的人來決定所以你行政院長不用決定在我在選舉的過程當中確實是有比較高階的這樣的一個國安特勤的保護是但是我要提醒你"},{"start":24146.92,"end":24162.56,"text":"萬里所謂賴清德副總統的老家他的產權是他的兒子不是他你贊成讓國安特勤或者警察去佔你女公子的房子房地產嗎你贊不贊成你會不會這麼做"},{"start":24165.862,"end":24171.366,"text":"本席是擔任憲兵的要是我被派在那邊守他兒子的房子我會覺得很悲哀啊我會覺得很淒慘"},{"start":24191.291,"end":24198.002,"text":"我當一個憲兵是來報效國家的不是來替我們的特權守房子"},{"start":24198.956,"end":24224.737,"text":"假如他是副總統他是行政院長我死都甘願好那我跟委員做個報告啦當我是副總統的時候我到哪裡那特勤人員一定會到那個地方去守護保護我的安全所以如果今天我有一個地方我會經常去訪問的時候那我當然就需要有特勤的保護嘛"},{"start":24226.779,"end":24227.459,"text":"請教一下五月天的問題"},{"start":24242.25,"end":24264.096,"text":"我們國安的官員在簡報裡面說跟CNN說五月天被要求表明自己的政治立場而且這個情報是基於台灣在中國收集的情報調查可能跟一月的總統大選有關這件事情您知道嗎我知道好請稍等"},{"start":24265.784,"end":24291.38,"text":"12月28陸委會就說查證中了來這邊法務部我們蔡部長我們檢查總長邢太昭說什麼這種全國性重大的假信息要立刻澄清迅速下架溯源追查主嫌陸委會12月28就說要查現在有結果嗎有沒有"},{"start":24293.672,"end":24311.748,"text":"來我們的調查局長說48小時就可以檢測升委的影片是不是偽造我們這時間不夠所以我就直接講請問羅志正委員相關的這種不管是升委或者不是升委"},{"start":24313.383,"end":24324.47,"text":"復不復合全國重大假訊息應不應該立即澄清 迅速下架溯源追查主嫌 院長你認為應不應該當然應該啊那結果呢 結果"},{"start":24328.772,"end":24333.856,"text":"結果呢會調查局有相關的東西來來來 院長不能對你有利的就選擇公布或不公布對執政黨立委不利的就選擇公布或不公布所以當時行政院副院長的"},{"start":24349.266,"end":24350.287,"text":"你原本是個老實人啊"},{"start":24372.725,"end":24374.166,"text":"賴副總統在第一時間就為我們羅委員說這是中國屆選的聲謂影片"},{"start":24397.489,"end":24397.789,"text":"現在已經在做了"},{"start":24421.844,"end":24429.571,"text":"答案呢馬上1月13號投票了你執政黨的參選人副總統就說是中國界選嗎需要時間 院長你看清楚調查局長王俊麗說48小時48小時還要溯源呢"},{"start":24447.898,"end":24458.894,"text":"那你至少要先公布這事實不是身為嘛那你如果你公布了以後影響了偵查的這個程序呢所以你現在講的都是騙段的事情"},{"start":24460.134,"end":24463.677,"text":"再一次最後9秒鐘希望你不要學會抹紅抹黑的伎倆我沒有抹紅抹黑千萬不可以這樣子因為你要有你的歷史定位"},{"start":24505.263,"end":24508.705,"text":"好 謝謝李委員接下來請吳委員育晴執行"},{"start":24515.759,"end":24517.24,"text":"因為剛才我接到一個簡訊說中國發射這個灰彈"},{"start":24539.369,"end":24544.321,"text":"是 我剛剛也看到這個警訊了對所以中共對我們的威脅是一直在的確實 確實時時都在"},{"start":24547.634,"end":24573.053,"text":"院長我想今天在總統大選的前4天召開這樣的臨時會其實是相當罕見的那我想今天又針對高端的議題又再重啟我想很多的不許的訊息其實希望藉這一次的臨時會也能夠跟國人做一個清楚的說明事實上從第10屆我們在這個未還委員會或是在院會的報告裡面"},{"start":24574.734,"end":24593.457,"text":"院長已經做3次報告了我們在胃環委員會調閱小組就開了6次我幾乎常我們都一直在胃環嘛那這個胃環裡面的專報或是這個公聽會也開了12次所以其實疫苗的事情我們在第3會期第4會期其實非常密集的討論"},{"start":24594.618,"end":24610.575,"text":"今天又重啟我覺得也好讓我們執政團隊可以針對高端的議題來好好說清楚所以今天有這個機會也來跟院長再請教一下現在這個疫苗的採購本來就涉及很多的商業的機密"},{"start":24611.916,"end":24632.344,"text":"簽訂保密合作合約其實是正常的一個情形那政院院長不斷地對當時我們第3會期第4會期的時候我們其實有個未還的調閱小組在調閱資料裡面他們都說我們塗黑啦遮蔽啦對我們這個內容有一些攻擊那我想請問院長或是我們部長"},{"start":24633.084,"end":24640.189,"text":"如果依照在野黨的要求完全不遮蔽也不把個別的機密資訊遮蔽的話會有什麼問題"},{"start":24647.825,"end":24663.472,"text":"如果說沒有遮蔽的話那就沒有辦法避免洩露出去那這個洩露出去的話那會影響到以後我們在做採購疫苗的時候那對於這些國外的廠商對我們的信任度"},{"start":24664.032,"end":24692.094,"text":"那可能我們就會買不到疫苗買不到藥品這是一個合約的規定裡面這個保密的原則如果不遵守那接下來沒有人跟我們做生意了沒有人會賣疫苗給我們那當時我們在這個所謂的採購疫苗調閱專案小組上面其實也有相關的規定就是我們在調閱資料的時候我們其實是委員本身進去看資料也要負有保密的一個責任的但是當時其實"},{"start":24693.015,"end":24694.797,"text":"而且這位委員還是法律人出身"},{"start":24712.208,"end":24733.076,"text":"我覺得立法院要做監督我們沒有意見但是你還是要守法如果不守法我覺得我們到國際去跟人家做生意或是購買相關的疫苗我覺得我們沒辦法取信於所有的契約方所以我自己在看這個我都覺得有點自己是"},{"start":24733.796,"end":24758.994,"text":"指法的人又違法沾沾自喜的就覺得這個是在破解我們執政團隊的這個所謂說法我覺得這個是我覺得對整個國家的殺傷力是非常大的所以我覺得這個是我自己覺得不可取但是大家都在野黨一直都用這種方式來覺得自己"},{"start":24759.394,"end":24763.797,"text":"那其他的呢?其他的應該有的都比高端還長"},{"start":24787.714,"end":24794.06,"text":"疫苗保存的期限確實每一個公司他的要求都不一樣像莫德納他就是不公開"},{"start":24815.7,"end":24834.833,"text":"所以我們今天一直在談說要針對高端的這個保密要公開那我覺得如果這件事針對BNT好了或是針對我們的AZ說我們要求他公開你覺得這些國際廠他會什麼態度看台灣"},{"start":24837.038,"end":24860.01,"text":"對,包括說鴻海也不敢去公開BNT的合約因為就沒有誠信嘛對,因為你看我們好不容易購買到像BNT這麼好的一個疫苗進來我們都不希望打破或打壞這個所謂國際的這個合約嘛所以沒有,現在我覺得在野黨沒有人在問說那為什麼不公開其他的疫苗"},{"start":24860.85,"end":24861.371,"text":"太明顯的選擇性了"},{"start":24883.746,"end":24885.888,"text":"有的人是文字是不太懂封存跟封"},{"start":24908.153,"end":24909.373,"text":"我們這些合約真的都不能公開嗎?"},{"start":24921.341,"end":24938.961,"text":"時間到了就可以啊原則上時間到了就可以今天早上院長的報告裡面其實也談到監察院還有審計部其實都看過合約了因為那是公務上的需要跟司法上如果法院需要的話也是可以看的嘛"},{"start":24940.369,"end":24966.09,"text":"對 對不過在這邊也跟委員報告一下啦那今天下午的時候那個高端已經宣 正式對外做聲明他會召開董事會來決定是否要公開是 所以他們最近會召開那個董事會來決議說要不要公開嘛要不要提早公開啦對 我們有多次跟他聯繫那他今天也對外公布這樣子"},{"start":24967.223,"end":24985.601,"text":"所以表示國人希望及早知道但是我想也是要我們公司這邊我想這樣子雙方都有一個彼此的尊重就是合約裡面最重要的也顯示了我們中華民國政府對於合約的誠信那對於未來我們要採購任何的藥物"},{"start":24986.181,"end":24987.182,"text":"其實疫苗是一個非常專業的科學"},{"start":25016.136,"end":25016.276,"text":"主席"},{"start":25039.66,"end":25054.255,"text":"即使身為一個臺灣人也很焦慮的是說每次在選舉到了一次再一次的這個在野黨在操作這個這個疫苗或是操作這樣的仇恨我覺得那我們國內的國產的所謂的這個產業誰敢再讓我們國家賠錢"},{"start":25060.481,"end":25064.563,"text":"其實臺灣人的本性是慈悲善良還有謙讓然後也願意照顧弱勢像口罩的時候我們不是說我OK你先請"},{"start":25087.293,"end":25104.026,"text":"但是我們會發現在這個疫苗這件事情上的時候就變成了不斷的抹黑不斷的照說明了假 錯假的訊息以至於民眾對於疫苗的這個副作用被誇大而不願意打疫苗"},{"start":25104.386,"end":25133.036,"text":"那像這樣的一個不正確的信息的傳播實際上是阻止了讓台灣的老人家不願意打疫苗一個很重要的原因我們的調查就說要有副作用啊還有人說呢打疫苗使得比感染的人多那這些錯假消息到處漫步的時候呢實際上就使得這些老人家不願意去接受疫苗所以台灣的疫苗老人家的疫苗接種率只有7成多日本韓國跟新加坡都到9成5以上當然我們"},{"start":25133.456,"end":25157.312,"text":"臨時會議員："},{"start":25158.056,"end":25178.533,"text":"我非常支持院長的一個說明那剛剛葉委員說這個高端好像完全依賴政府好像不是事實吧所以高端其實有關長病毒疫苗院長還有部長應該很熟悉現在高端的長病毒疫苗到底市佔率多少"},{"start":25182.337,"end":25195.914,"text":"目前長病毒71的疫苗台灣有兩支一支是安特羅一支是高端總共已經封建檢驗的大概是23萬高端佔22萬3千"},{"start":25199.058,"end":25216.307,"text":"所以大概在9成左右的市佔率對 是已經9成多了所以這很專業嘛能夠研發出一個長病毒的疫苗所以剛才那個委員講說他就只有靠COVID-19疫苗他那個是自費的而且價格也不低"},{"start":25217.347,"end":25234.29,"text":"是 所以高端有它研發的能力那它自己也研發了長病毒的疫苗我覺得這個就是我們要培植的國產的一個公司疫苗這因為疫苗是戰略物資啊如果當真的有狀況的時候台灣自己要有自己的疫苗"},{"start":25235.05,"end":25235.33,"text":"主席"},{"start":25254.886,"end":25283.421,"text":"確實這是當時我們在決定COVID-19的疫苗要國際採購以及國內發展的時候就公開徵求國內所有的生醫產是這疫苗製造者能夠進來所以不是所以有國光﹚土地高端﹚有聯亞還有高端都三家對 有四家但是有一家後來他不願意安特羅他不願意進來所以有三家所以政府是全面的來照顧臺灣的生醫產業鼓勵他們好好做研發成為世界一流的疫苗廠"},{"start":25285.141,"end":25300.877,"text":"其實我們當時這樣支持我們國內的廠商進來研發疫苗是原來4家後來3家有的進1期有的進2期其實我們投入金額沒有很高高端才4.6美國4千億"},{"start":25305.894,"end":25333.9,"text":"所以我覺得我們投入的並沒有很多但是國內的廠商真的這個算是厲害啦有自己的研發的能力而且產出很好的一個疫苗能夠我想接下來全世界應該會對於我們的疫苗是很認同的那當然我們看到那個賴副總統也提到說我們高端的合約要這個公布那我剛剛也再請部長再說一次就是高端下午的公布是說"},{"start":25335.261,"end":25362.962,"text":"他們即將要召開董事會來決定是否同意跟什麼時候要公開所以這個部分我們還是要尊重高端這邊因為我們畢竟也是雙方的一個合約我們不能強迫說他一定要公開但是我們看到國內的情勢當然如果能公開我們一起讓這個訊息能夠公開透明讓高端也不要每次都變成大家的劍把"},{"start":25364.203,"end":25381.179,"text":"政府的立場也是主張可以公開啦我們就盡量的跟這個高端做協商然後希望他能夠公開我們很高興看到他願意召開董事會來做決定一個上市公司來講他們的開這個董事會大概要花多長的時間與他們一起"},{"start":25385.823,"end":25400.65,"text":"這個我印象中是說董事會召開前的一個禮拜要通知要說明然後他們來開董事會那像這一件事情的話我們很高興看到高端願意這樣來做了"},{"start":25401.471,"end":25416.945,"text":"院長最後一點時間因為最近疫情好像又再起所以整個又快要春節了又要選舉所以很多人來來往往的我們是不是要請院長這邊再宣導一次就是要趕快鼓勵大家再打疫苗"},{"start":25417.677,"end":25418.158,"text":"主席"},{"start":25447.366,"end":25468.82,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員接下來請林委員為周諸詢謝謝院長我們請陳院長還有薛部長一起上來國防部長有來嗎國防部長沒有來林委員長"},{"start":25473.081,"end":25473.361,"text":"中國發射衛星"},{"start":25494.136,"end":25506.999,"text":"發射衛星要國家級警報嗎當然啊 因為它也是一個投射器啊一個否建的投射器發射中國發射衛星發射多少你知道嗎每一次都發國家級警報嗎那就經過我們本島上一次真正發射飛彈橫越臺灣"},{"start":25514.714,"end":25523.038,"text":"上空啊沒有發國家級警報這是防空警報所以你們現在是怎樣?碰到選舉製造緊張嗎?以前飛彈飛過台灣領空說大氣層不屬於領空沒有發國家警報現在發射一個衛星"},{"start":25539.54,"end":25541.381,"text":"我剛才一看還沒有看完的時候我就上來了"},{"start":25559.046,"end":25561.849,"text":"3點05分中國發射衛星已飛越南部上空請民眾注意安全若發現不明物體"},{"start":25574.124,"end":25599.613,"text":"通報警消人員處理那個衛星是會掉下來是不是不明物體人家會發射衛星你在警告我們的民眾每一節每一節的火箭都會落到地下為什麼要提高警覺為什麼要提高警覺這個容易讓人誤解你看他的英文叫Air Raid Alert"},{"start":25599.913,"end":25624.59,"text":"MISOFLY OVER TAIWAN AIR SPACEBEWAREMISO是SATELLITE還是是MISO還是SATELLITE人造衛星怎麼講啊SATELLITE啊那怎麼寫MISO這個這個我我就你寫飛彈欸你以為台灣人都不懂英文這個錯誤的話我們要來更正錯誤馬上更正"},{"start":25629.431,"end":25630.051,"text":"臨時會議．第1次臨時會議．第1次臨時會議．第1次臨時會議"},{"start":25659.096,"end":25673.385,"text":"這是火箭搭載著衛星那為什麼要公告就是我講的這個火箭會一點一點掉下來而且選前四天有沒有借選這是你自己講的但是中國的衛星為什麼衛星用國家機器在借選"},{"start":25683.254,"end":25683.574,"text":"讓人誤導是當作飛彈"},{"start":25699.227,"end":25719.347,"text":"沒有啊你們發的簡訊英文你怎麼解釋啊火箭搭載發射的衛星啊你為什麼不寫satellite我們一定要讓民眾知道說投射這個衛星的時候火箭會掉下來大家要小心"},{"start":25719.807,"end":25722.712,"text":"你的簡訊不導民眾讓民眾容易誤會說我真的是發射飛彈對不對你的簡訊要不要道歉啊"},{"start":25734.465,"end":25756.131,"text":"你為什麼不直接寫是Satellite artificial satelliteSatellite不是launch啦Satellite不是用這一個字啦所以我想這個你剛剛不是跟我回答說人造衛星怎麼講英文怎麼講Satellite對啊那你為什麼不用Satellite這是Satellite flyover這一句話要小心因為人造衛星本來就在你那邊飛過去"},{"start":25758.011,"end":25761.235,"text":"這是一個投射的行為以前他們發過多少衛星從來我們都不曾接受過這種國家級警報這剛好選舉前四天"},{"start":25777.506,"end":25777.766,"text":"防空警報"},{"start":25807.247,"end":25809.909,"text":"第一次有這種國家級警報是因為發射衛星"},{"start":25823.441,"end":25823.662,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":25844.978,"end":25845.918,"text":"這個我們常常在講"},{"start":25872.549,"end":25882.236,"text":"所以你要去問他蔡英文總統上台以後兩岸中線不見了這個也是事實嘛國民黨執政的時候沒有這種問題啊"},{"start":25884.161,"end":25884.381,"text":"主席馬英九總統"},{"start":25906.86,"end":25916.764,"text":"憲法是災難嗎我們的治權就是臺澎金馬憲法修正條文怎麼說臺澎金馬是我們的治權但是我們國家叫中華民國固有疆域包括中國大陸那是固有疆域法案條例就是在處理這個問題啊那你不認同我們的憲法"},{"start":25933.154,"end":25934.534,"text":"發射一個衛星誤導成發射飛彈"},{"start":25962.179,"end":25987.054,"text":"那你為什麼不選擇中國?你選擇中國偏偏在選舉的時候沒有要你回答現在我們來談高端我還有時間耶是我在質詢但是我們共用時間啊OK 這個我問你才答嘛你不能問我問題嘛我沒有問題啊這個是規定啊 對不對好不好我也可以叫你不回答你可以"},{"start":25988.154,"end":25989.115,"text":"高端是一個好的疫苗"},{"start":26005.25,"end":26009.053,"text":"他現在有世界衛生組織跟他簽一個技術授權的"},{"start":26024.079,"end":26030.266,"text":"到目前為止除了賣有感疫苗其他疫苗有啦但是賣這個COVID-19疫苗的收入是零"},{"start":26043.933,"end":26044.153,"text":"這是不能說的"},{"start":26062.735,"end":26069.638,"text":"日本當時是說只要被世界衛生組織認可的疫苗他都接受因為當時我們還沒有可是我要講的是打了這個300萬"},{"start":26076.281,"end":26091.191,"text":"現在日本根本入境都不需要現在已經被WHO認可了嗎這300萬劑的疫苗打下去以後我們發現它的效益是跟BNT跟莫德納是一樣的好比AZ還好那比起AZ你講的"},{"start":26096.214,"end":26108.78,"text":"這是新興傳染病這個重要的學術期刊發表的論文你如果連這個就不用講不用在這裡講好一個疫苗好嗎這是國際認證的疫苗你打AZ打BNT都可以到日本結果打高端都不行你要再打八項這是事實"},{"start":26120.182,"end":26132.39,"text":"日本科技不發達生醫沒有我們發達是嗎確實我現在講嘛日本發展出來的COVID-19疫苗沒有一個成功的"},{"start":26150.339,"end":26154.521,"text":"高端公司曾經自己發表過 單季的話是881如果多季型的話是810塊 然後他贈送20萬季"},{"start":26176.394,"end":26180.441,"text":"所以我問你這個問題881實在是蠻貴的加上我們對他的補助款4億多合起來1000塊一劑比BNT還貴"},{"start":26192.038,"end":26212.137,"text":"怎麼會有一千塊這個數字?你如果補助另外一個4個月,你還要算上去,算上下去,一劑就是一千塊那你就跟他說,八百多塊啊八百多塊那是買疫苗的錢,你們有另外,人家那個董事會的錄音帶都出來了啊所以你們有另外補助他4億多啊,不是嗎?"},{"start":26212.637,"end":26212.917,"text":"應該不該補助 該不該研發 要嗎"},{"start":26241.098,"end":26264.601,"text":"那個跟國外廠商不一樣的是高端就沒經過三期的這個認證委員如果有打過那些莫德納啦B&B啊國外有補助B&B這些都有補助讓全球各國家都認同你的高端就沒有國家認同只有我們衛福部是唯一的客人"},{"start":26266.983,"end":26292.483,"text":"你講三期的疫苗委員你當時如果打BNT打莫德納你打的也不是三期臨床實驗後的疫苗喔不是喔你一定要有這樣的一個觀念你們現在到底要公開這個合約了沒有啦決定了沒有這個部分的話高端公司已經對外來發了聲明那下午的時候他們人家高端都要開董事會"},{"start":26294.704,"end":26320.399,"text":"高端的重大訊息重訊都說不是我們不公布是因為衛福部機關要求錯誤早上已經有解釋過請金管會這個院長這個部長沒有辦法管到高端金管會要管一下重大訊息發布錯誤是要罰款的罰則的有沒有罰則重大訊息發布假訊息這有沒有罰則請說"},{"start":26323.507,"end":26323.827,"text":"法款還是怎麼樣?"},{"start":26333.871,"end":26334.712,"text":"高端公司已經決定要召開臨時董事會"},{"start":26359.609,"end":26363.59,"text":"我們的合約是簽5年保密協定政府要信手成信"},{"start":26396.983,"end":26415.199,"text":"本日排定執行的委員都已經詢答完畢謝謝陳院長及相關部會所長立即答詢作以下之決定一 將各委員發言紀錄及書面執行含重行政院請就未答覆部分予以書面答覆"},{"start":26416.55,"end":26439.586,"text":"已提出是市委主席應善會登在公報者一例補刊報告院會本次會議所列議程已經處理完畢於是立法院議事規則第54條規定便藉最後一次院會議事錄於善會前宣讀現在請林秘書長宣讀第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議議事錄"},{"start":26444.912,"end":26471.903,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議一事錄時間 中華民國113年1月9日上午9時8分至12時2分下午20時30分至30時51分地點本院議場出席委員 邱委員陳妍等人請假委員 賴委員瑞龍等人主席 院長游錫堃"},{"start":26473.433,"end":26485.428,"text":"行政院院長提出是否公布高端合約．是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益．等相關事宜專案報告並答覆質詢．決定"},{"start":26489.292,"end":26514.176,"text":"一將各委員發言紀錄及書面執行含送行政院請就未答部分已以書面答覆二已提出之書面執行尚未登載公布者一例補刊其他事項一本次會議議事日程照議事處編撰草案通過先讀完畢報告委員會"},{"start":26515.396,"end":26528.883,"text":"尊對第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議．事由．如委員或黨團提出錯誤或疑落之處．作為下述宣告．8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議．事由．確定報言會 本次臨時會進行到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"149091","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149091","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee689760726d9d4d36c64826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50ac88c721d118b9685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:31:57 - 10:47:52","影片長度":"00:15:55","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":955,"end_time":"2024-01-09T10:47:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T10:31:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":613,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時32分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。老柯一向老謀深算、老奸巨猾，同意我們開臨時會，其中必有詐，以為要堵我們的嘴、要公開了，原來都沒有，原來今天來，這一本叫做陳建仁替高端擦脂抹粉報告書，貴為行政院長，自甘墮落成為高端的salesman，開口閉口高端多讚又多讚，臺灣多讚又多讚，臺灣前面很讚，但後面就不行了，3加11的破口不要忘了，死了多少人！高端到現在為止走不出去，國際沒有承認高端，不要忘了，它到現在為止沒有做第三期哦！院長，你不要當了院長還……","請院長。"],["主席：陳院長，請。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，謝謝你請我上來，我還以為你不讓我有講的機會，實際上你講的是完全不正確。"],["賴委員士葆：我先講，你不要講，我沒有讓你講，你先不要講，你尊重我。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我會尊重你。"],["賴委員士葆：在這裡是我的時間。院長，原本你上台時，大家覺得你多少有一個學術良心，中研院這麼高的位子、這麼高的學術高度，怎麼會……"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才講的都是事實。"],["賴委員士葆：我講話你不要插嘴可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["賴委員士葆：請你不要插嘴，尊重我。"],["陳院長建仁：那你給我講話的機會，等一下給我講話的機會。"],["賴委員士葆：我讓你講話才講。今天前面的委員「竹篙鬥菜刀」，為什麼今天開這個會？賴清德自己講的，是賴清德先「起鼓」說要公開高端疫苗，到昨天還講要公開，是賴清德要公開，不要忘了，還說什麼政治鬥爭等等之類的，我們是看民調，臺灣人民有70%希望公開，所以才有今天的臨時會。","院長，前面是前言，你不要回答……"],["陳院長建仁：你的前提我可以回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：你不要回答。"],["陳院長建仁：為什麼不讓我回答？"],["賴委員士葆：來，我問你，你有沒有講過高端要公開？"],["陳院長建仁：你這樣不公平啦。"],["賴委員士葆：請你尊重我可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，剛才你前提完，你說要給我回答，你沒有給我回答。"],["賴委員士葆：我等一下會給你回答嘛，你聽完，我的題目在這裡啊，剛才是前言啦、前言啦！","陳建仁說高端公開要董事會同意，陳時中嗆你喔！不可以任意公開；薛瑞元也嗆你啊，薛瑞元有上來……"],["陳院長建仁：斷章取義。"],["賴委員士葆：他嗆你啊，他說高端考量中。欸！高端彷彿你們的皇帝，好像是你們的太上皇一樣欸！"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意。"],["賴委員士葆：高端、高端什麼東西，欸！來，這是你講的、你講的，陳建仁1月5號講的……"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意，而且這是斷章取義的東西。"],["賴委員士葆：不同意嗎？不同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不同意呀！"],["賴委員士葆：你講的，這報紙寫的！"],["陳院長建仁：剛才委員你講的這個，不要在那邊製造分裂啦，實際上……"],["賴委員士葆：關分裂什麼事？"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：你針對我的問題回答。"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：請你針對問題回答。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我……"],["賴委員士葆：請你針對問題回答說，是不是要公開一定要高端同意，是不是？是不是？Yes、No？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我贊成公開。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣就好了、這樣就好了！","高端是行政院的太上皇……"],["陳院長建仁：錯！"],["賴委員士葆：你可以看喔……"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意。"],["賴委員士葆：你剛才、你剛才……"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你剛才回答……你不同意就不同意嘛……"],["薛部長瑞元：高端公司……"],["賴委員士葆：你先不要講！"],["薛部長瑞元：是民營的公司……"],["賴委員士葆：好！剛才院長在回答其他委員的時候，有說我們要信守契約誠信，你講的，有沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：對啊，當然啊。"],["賴委員士葆：對！好，太好了，那你砍軍公教的年金，為什麼不信守那個契約呢？軍公教是法律耶，是by law、是法耶，law是法耶！你說砍就砍，重新砍光光，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？我可以回答嗎？軍公教年改也是依法辦理。"],["賴委員士葆：你怎麼……軍公教為什麼可以不講誠信？為什麼不講誠信？軍公教為什麼可以不講誠信？"],["陳院長建仁：軍公教年改也是依法辦理。"],["賴委員士葆：現在高端要講誠信！為什麼你高端講誠信？"],["陳院長建仁：大法官的釋憲……"],["賴委員士葆：軍公教不講誠信？"],["陳院長建仁：大法官釋憲的結果是可以進行軍公教改革，你相信大法官的解釋，還是相信……"],["賴委員士葆：我當然不相信大法官，都是綠油油的一片！"],["陳院長建仁：你不相信大法官？"],["賴委員士葆：當然不相信呀！大法官都是……"],["陳院長建仁：喔，你不相信大法官，那……"],["賴委員士葆：對不對？大法官誰相信呀！你去問一問，大法官誰相信？全部都綠的。"],["陳院長建仁：我也沒有話講了，你不相信大法官的解釋！"],["賴委員士葆：大法官就是蔡英文一個人的意思而已。","來，所以院長……"],["陳院長建仁：你誤解了臺灣的法律。"],["賴委員士葆：院長，我告訴你，你講說要信守契約只針對高端，軍公教不必信守契約、軍公教不必信守這個承諾……"],["陳院長建仁：我們是依法。"],["賴委員士葆：而且這是法律耶，高端沒有法律。","好，我講給你聽，高端在民國110年5月30號重訊喔！重大訊息發布，它是上櫃公司，第六款仔細看好，我把它放大了，限制條款依採購機關要求，就是衛福部要求不可以公開，所以不是高端不要公開啊！找到、抓到了，是衛福部要求要保密條款……"],["薛部長瑞元：衛福部沒有要求。"],["賴委員士葆：它重訊是這樣。"],["薛部長瑞元：重訊是它單方面公告的。"],["賴委員士葆：奇怪！這個是……"],["薛部長瑞元：它不用經過衛福部同意再去公開……"],["賴委員士葆：這個是高端的重訊，110年5月30號重訊……"],["薛部長瑞元：它要公告重訊不需經過衛福部。"],["賴委員士葆：它說是你們要求它不可以公開，是你們要求的！"],["薛部長瑞元：我們沒有要求。"],["賴委員士葆：它這樣寫啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：它這樣寫並不需要通過我們的同意，它就可以寫啊。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有糾正呀、你沒有糾正喔、你沒有糾正喔。"],["薛部長瑞元：我不是它在證券的主管機關。"],["賴委員士葆：它是你太上皇嘛！所以……"],["薛部長瑞元：什麼叫太上皇？現在是民主時代，哪裡有什麼太上皇！"],["賴委員士葆：再來，行政院、衛福部自導自演，你叫它不可以公開，結果現在說公開要它同意，世間有這種事情？自己……"],["薛部長瑞元：高端是民營公司，難道民營的公司政府隨便要怎麼樣就可以怎麼樣嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：但是它講說……不要忘了，它講、它自己講……"],["薛部長瑞元：你叫全臺灣的民營公司要怎麼樣去生存？"],["賴委員士葆：它的重訊講，是簽約的機關、採購機關，就是政府……"],["薛部長瑞元：這是它一面之詞，衛福部沒有叫它不可以公開！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你不要用高端的重訊來……"],["賴委員士葆：奇怪！重訊，高端也是，奇怪！它公開資料耶，拜託！這是公開資料……"],["陳院長建仁：錯誤的資料。"],["賴委員士葆：金管會主委，來、來、來！"],["陳院長建仁：錯誤的資料。"],["賴委員士葆：黃主委、黃主委，來講一下重訊，黃主委怎麼處理重訊？金管會主委，它的重訊居然是一文不值啊！那金管會主委是幹什麼的？來，黃主委講一下重訊怎麼處理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：重訊有櫃買中心公布的相關辦法，根據那些事項，如果有符合規定的話就要公布。"],["賴委員士葆：那它公布是真的假的？你們要不要查核？"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為委員剛才垂詢的事情我不太瞭解它的背景。"],["賴委員士葆：你去瞭解，你可以請回。","居然大家抓到了，不公開的是衛福部啊！不是高端，卻要我們問高端。來！我們再看上一張，為什麼這裡面你一定不能公開？它又沒有要外銷，它只有101個，買主就是衛福部；它去年1到7月份營業額是0，靠著代理韓國的疫苗，它才有收入，清楚的是它要靠你們。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這回事。"],["賴委員士葆：它拜託你們，怎麼你現在靠他們？大家都怕成這樣！"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，高端的腸病毒疫苗已經上市。"],["陳院長建仁：對，你完全不懂高端的情況，而且現在，委員，我可以講了嘛，你剛才講的這一些說高端賣得很少怎麼樣，但是你不要忘掉高端……"],["賴委員士葆：營業額0啊！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，但是高端，我剛才講過世界衛生組織跟高端有要技轉……"],["賴委員士葆：高端的營業額是0，8月份靠你們的流感疫苗，這是事實啊！"],["陳院長建仁：但是高端的疫苗，高端的COVID-19疫苗確實保護了臺灣300萬人的生命，這個你不可以否認。"],["賴委員士葆：走不出去啊！"],["陳院長建仁：因為它的效果就是跟BNT、莫德納一樣好啊！"],["賴委員士葆：有嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：那你現在抹煞了這種情形，就是因為很多人這樣的抹煞，才會使得臺灣的產業沒有辦法……"],["賴委員士葆：對不起，陳院長，你不要釋放假訊息，剛才我一聽就很生氣，有哪一位國民黨的委員叫你進口中國疫苗？哪一位講出來！哪一位講出來！"],["陳院長建仁：我等一下給你一系列的東西，有喔。"],["賴委員士葆：講出來！講出來！講出來！現在就講！現在就講國民黨哪一位立委說要進口中國疫苗，哪一位你說！你在這裡釋放假訊息啊！你就是假訊息中心！陳院長，你怎麼可以這樣子？"],["陳院長建仁：我不是，這樣子講……"],["賴委員士葆：這樣喪失學術良心！"],["陳院長建仁：這樣子沒有辦法討論事情。"],["賴委員士葆：當然沒有辦法討論，因為你亂扣帽子。"],["陳院長建仁：要來講的是事實，當時有多少人主張要進口中國……"],["賴委員士葆：國民黨沒有立委說要進口中國疫苗。"],["陳院長建仁：使用中國的疫苗。"],["賴委員士葆：以前你萬般阻擋BNT、阻擋什麼的，就是為了高端，我們還在這裡表決一個國民黨團的提案，說我們進口全世界……"],["陳院長建仁：包括中國的疫苗。"],["賴委員士葆：WHO核准的……"],["陳院長建仁：就是包括中國疫苗啊！你講的就是中國疫苗啊！"],["賴委員士葆：高端就沒有列入。"],["陳院長建仁：世界衛生組織核准的疫苗就是有中國的疫苗，所以你們也是主張中國疫苗啊，因為你要世界衛生組織核准的，就是中國疫苗。"],["賴委員士葆：你們可以篩選不要中國的疫苗。"],["陳院長建仁：所以你是有主張啊！所以你剛才自己講啦！"],["賴委員士葆：我哪裡有主張？"],["陳院長建仁：有啊！你說進口世界衛生組織核可的疫苗，就包括了中國的科興跟中國的國藥，所以你這樣主張難道不是嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：你這個是假訊息。"],["陳院長建仁：為什麼假訊息？世界衛生組織核可的就包括中國疫苗，怎麼會沒有？你告訴我世界衛生組織核可的疫苗有沒有中國疫苗，有沒有？有啊！確實是有。"],["賴委員士葆：難道只有中國嗎？沒有其他嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當然有，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！有莫德納啊！"],["陳院長建仁：但是也有中國的疫苗啊！所以你們也是主張會進入世界衛生組織的list裡面嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有人主張，你今天釋放假訊息，我跟你講。"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有釋放假訊息，是你自己講的！是你講說你們主張世界衛生組織的疫苗通通可以進口，那世界衛生組織通過的疫苗就是包括了科興跟國藥。"],["賴委員士葆：你們可以篩選，可以不要它嘛！這東西你不要就不要，人家認為BNT只是經過上海……好！你不要給我拖時間。"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有拖時間，是你講的啊！"],["賴委員士葆：價差，為什麼明明他要700塊就可以，為什麼你們買881、平均840？這不是圖利就是飯桶！"],["陳院長建仁：這不是飯桶！"],["賴委員士葆：那是圖利。"],["陳院長建仁：你那個700塊是take average，臺灣總共要買3,000萬劑的疫苗，是想說大概要700塊，委員不要忘掉AZ疫苗是很便宜的，AZ疫苗是很便宜的，那個我們剛才講到的中國疫苗，那種很簡單作法的，還有那個高階的疫苗，像高端的是不一樣，所以這需要議價，你700塊錢那個是錯的消息。"],["賴委員士葆：這個錄音檔出來……"],["陳院長建仁：那個是剪接的錄音檔。"],["賴委員士葆：那你去告他嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：有啊！已經告了啊！已經被告了啊！現在在司法的調查當中，高端已經去告他們了。"],["賴委員士葆：反正司法院是你們開的嘛！檢調都是你們開的。"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意這一件事情，你這樣講的話，我不同意，檢調怎麼會是行政院開的？"],["賴委員士葆：你不要轉移焦點。"],["陳院長建仁：你這樣講不對嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：我當然講得對啊！怎麼不對？"],["陳院長建仁：你說檢調是我們開的。"],["賴委員士葆：當然是你們開的啊！現在檢調專門在抓藍軍啊！"],["陳院長建仁：我完全、完全反對這樣的講法……"],["賴委員士葆：檢調專門抓藍軍，也沒抓綠軍，綠軍都不抓啊！"],["陳院長建仁：檢調是我們開的？"],["賴委員士葆：綠軍都不抓啊！藍軍拼命抓，就為了選舉的事情拼命介入，司法介選現在進行式啊！"],["陳院長建仁：委員不要選舉到了就到處抹黑啦！"],["賴委員士葆：這樣沒有意思啦！我跟你講。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有意思的是你講的。"],["賴委員士葆：你今天……"],["陳院長建仁：是嘛！你就說檢調怎麼會是我開的？"],["賴委員士葆：你今天是來講的，不是來吵架的啊！"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有吵架，是你……"],["賴委員士葆：陳院長一開始就來吵架啊！"],["陳院長建仁：你……"],["賴委員士葆：你來吵架的啊！院長你脾氣好一點啦！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，你就說……"],["賴委員士葆：你真的不是圖利就是飯桶，講到你的痛處，所以你跟我吵架。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我沒有飯桶、我沒有圖利。"],["賴委員士葆：你飯桶或是圖利，就是這樣。"],["陳院長建仁：我可以講嗎？我可以講嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：不可以講！衛福部不是圖利就是飯桶。","我們看最後一個，你們兩位都可以走。"],["薛部長瑞元：我跟委員講啦！"],["賴委員士葆：請走、請走。"],["薛部長瑞元：BNT比那個價格還高啦！"],["賴委員士葆：薛部長請走。"],["薛部長瑞元：也是用700塊去算的啦！"],["賴委員士葆：薛部長請走。"],["薛部長瑞元：去編預算的啦！"],["賴委員士葆：薛部長請走、薛部長請走、請走，請你們兩位都走，院長留下來，我時間不多了，不要浪費我的時間。","你對於廢死的態度是怎麼樣？蔡英文說廢死是普世目標；陳菊說人權會成立廢死的推動工作小組；游院長說廢除死刑是我們努力的目標啊！所以民進黨推動廢死在路上，在哪裡？在路上，在路上啊！黨綱把它查一查，有廢死呀！以今天來講，為什麼可以拖28個、38個……"],["蔡部長清祥：37。"],["賴委員士葆：38、37都一樣啦！whatever，很多，為什麼這樣？就是因為你們用一個死刑執行規則，這不是法律啊！這就是你訂的，法務部長訂……"],["蔡部長清祥：那是94年就訂了。"],["賴委員士葆：這個東西不是法律的東西，不是法律，對吧？"],["蔡部長清祥：它是一個規則沒有錯……"],["賴委員士葆：規則不是法律嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：但是是94年就已經訂了……"],["賴委員士葆：對！"],["蔡部長清祥：要經過救濟，包括再審、非常上訴，還有釋憲。"],["賴委員士葆：所以很簡單，我在這裡公開呼籲，反對廢死的人，大家票投侯友宜與趙少康，這樣子馬上可以把這一條改掉，已經三審定讞死刑了，還要給他再審？還要給他非常上訴？最惡劣的是還要經過憲法法庭，大法官都是蔡英文提名的，老闆要廢死，當然不敢動啊！這個就是我要講的，票投侯康才可能反廢死，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝賴委員。","報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（10時48分）","繼續開會（10時58分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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高端我贊都我贊台灣我贊都我贊喔 台灣 台中贊啊不要不行啊3加11的破口不要忘了 死了多少人死了多少人 高端到現在為止走不出去啊國際沒有承認高端 不要忘囉他到現在為止沒有做第三期喔院長"},{"start":81.604,"end":82.811,"text":"你不要當連任還來欺騙他們院長請"},{"start":91.59,"end":116.578,"text":"委員謝謝你請我上來我還以為你不讓我有講的機會實際上你上來講的是完全不正確我沒有叫你講先不要講OK你尊重我在這裡是我的時間是我的時間院長大家原來你上台大家覺得你多少學術良心你中研院這麼高的位置這麼高的學術高度我剛才講的不是事實我講完你不要插嘴可以嗎請你不要插嘴尊重我"},{"start":117.281,"end":135.117,"text":"那你給我講話的機會我讓你講話再講今天前面的委員今天為什麼這個會賴清德自己講的是賴清德先Kick Go賴清德說要公開高端疫苗到昨天還講要公開賴清德要公開"},{"start":139.124,"end":158.776,"text":"不要忘了什麼政治鬥爭什麼之類的我們是跟著去說你看民調臺灣的人民70%的人希望公開所以才今天要講臨時會來 院長你不要回答你不回答你不要回答來來來問你你有沒有講過高端要公開"},{"start":166.169,"end":175.996,"text":"請你尊重我嗎?請你尊重我可以嗎?我會給你回答嘛!我會給你聽完嘛!我聽不在這裡啊!剛才是前言啦!前言啦!陳建仁說高端公開要同時會統一陳時中嗆!嗆你喔!不可以啊!徐樂園也嗆你啊!"},{"start":193.462,"end":213.423,"text":"雖然又上了一課﹚斷章取義﹚他說要高端考量中高端不會是你們的紅帝好像是你們的太上皇一樣我不同意高端 高端 什麼東西這是不是你講的 陳建仁一月五號講的"},{"start":214.184,"end":238.119,"text":"我不同意而且這是斷章取義的東西不同意嗎你講的我剛才委員你講的這個不要在那邊製造分裂啦實際上我可以回答嗎我可以回答嗎請你針對問題回答請你針對問題回答說是不是要公開一定要高端同意是不是是不是yes no好這樣就好了來"},{"start":241.431,"end":246.76,"text":"高端是行政院的太上皇你剛才回答你不同意"},{"start":250.842,"end":279.336,"text":"高端公司是民營的公司剛才院長在回答其他委員的時候有說我們要信守契約誠信你講的有沒有對呀當然啦對好太好了那你看軍公教的年輕為什麼不信守那個契約呢軍公教是法律耶是百路是法欸LAW是法咧你說看就看我可以回答嗎"},{"start":280.316,"end":288.859,"text":"我可以回答嗎軍公教連改也是依法辦理而且大法官釋憲的結果是可以進行軍公教改革你相信大法官的解釋還是相信"},{"start":300.622,"end":301.302,"text":"你誤解了臺灣的法律"},{"start":317.435,"end":342.575,"text":"我告訴你你講說要信守契約只針對高端軍公教不必信守契約啊軍公教不必信守這個承諾而且這是法律欸高端沒有法律好我講給你聽高端在民國110年5月30號重巡樓重大訊息發布他是上櫃公司"},{"start":344.759,"end":346.179,"text":"衛福部沒有要求"},{"start":368.999,"end":370.3,"text":"你沒有糾正了"},{"start":398.53,"end":418.315,"text":"我不是他在這個證券的這個主管的機關他是你太上訪嗎?什麼叫太上訪?現在是民主時代哪有什麼太上訪?現在行政院委員部自導自演你叫他不可以公開結果現在說公開要他同意世界的這件事"},{"start":419.415,"end":444.391,"text":"高端是民營公司難道民營的公司政府隨便要怎麼樣就可以怎麼樣嗎叫做全台灣的民營公司要怎麼樣去生存這是他一念之詞問福部沒有叫他不可以公開"},{"start":445.071,"end":472.377,"text":"委員你不要用高端的重訓來...奇怪 重訓 高端的事奇怪 他公開資料欸拜託這是公開資料錯誤的資料來來來 黃主委黃主委來來講講一下重訓 黃主委怎麼處理重訓儘管會主委他的重訓居然是一文不值啊儘管會主委是幹什麼的來來來 黃主委講一下重訓怎麼處理"},{"start":473.584,"end":495.584,"text":"中訓他有歸買中心他的中訓的公布的辦法根據那些事項如果有符合規定的話就要公布那他公布是真的假的你們要不要查核這個就是他當委員您剛才垂詢的事情我不太瞭解他的背景你去瞭解好不好你瞭解假的即便這樣來我在你可以請回好不好就居然"},{"start":507.063,"end":534.698,"text":"上一張我們可以我們來可以看了可以看為什麼這裡面你一定不能公開為什麼一定不能公開他又沒有要外銷他只有一百零一個買主就是衛務部他去年的一到七月份營業額是零靠著"},{"start":547.959,"end":556.362,"text":"高端的長病毒疫苗已經上市你完全不懂高端的情況而且現在委員我可以講了吧"},{"start":558.032,"end":581.641,"text":"你剛才講的這一些說高端賣得很少怎麼樣但是呢你不要忘掉高端我剛才講過世界衛生組織跟高端有要進轉但是高端的疫苗確實高端的COVID-19疫苗確實保護了台灣300萬人的生命"},{"start":586.064,"end":605.431,"text":"這個你不可以否認因為他的效果就是跟BNT跟莫德納一樣好啊那你現在抹煞了這種事情就是因為很多人這樣的抹煞才會使得台灣的產業沒有辦法我剛才聽我聽得很生氣有哪一位國民黨的委員所叫你進口中國疫苗哪一位講出來"},{"start":607.231,"end":623.196,"text":"我等一下給你一系列的東西你現在就講 下次講國民黨哪一位立委說要進口中國疫苗哪一位你說 你在這裡分放假訊息啊你就是假訊息中心陳院長你怎麼可以這樣子啊這樣子沒有辦法討論事情啊要來講的是事實當時有多少人來主張要進入中國"},{"start":632.359,"end":633.581,"text":"國民黨團提案說我們進口全世界"},{"start":651.28,"end":651.44,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":675.603,"end":690.794,"text":"你說進口世界衛生組織合格的疫苗就包括了中國的科興跟中國的國藥所以你這樣的主張難道不是嗎你這個是假訊息你自己世界衛生組織合格的就包括中國疫苗"},{"start":691.621,"end":716.573,"text":"怎麼會沒有?你告訴我世界衛生組織可不可的疫苗有沒有中國疫苗?有沒有?有啊!確實是有!當然有!但是也有中國的疫苗啊!所以你們也是主張會進入世界衛生組織的list裡面嘛!我沒有報告小訊息!是你自己講的!是你講說你們主張世界衛生組織的疫苗通通可以進口!"},{"start":717.659,"end":724.54,"text":"那世界衛生組織通過的疫苗就是包括了科興跟國藥假查為什麼明明他說700塊才會殺你啊為什麼2881平均840這不是圖利就是罷工這是崩潰"},{"start":741.574,"end":767.284,"text":"這不是文章你那個7百塊你那個7百塊是Tag Average台灣當中買3千萬這個疫苗是想說大概要700塊委員不要忘掉AZ疫苗是很便宜的AZ疫苗是很便宜的那個我們剛才講到的中國的疫苗那種很簡單的做法的還有那個高階的疫苗像高端的是不一樣所以這是說一下你700塊錢那個是錯的消息"},{"start":770.474,"end":791.073,"text":"這個錄音檔出來那個是剪接的錄音檔那你去告他嘛有啊 已經被告啦現在在司法的調查當中高端已經去告他們了這個剪調都是你們開的剪調是我不同意這一件事情你這樣講的話我不同意剪調怎麼會是行政院開的你不要管李佳天你這樣講不對嘛"},{"start":794.796,"end":804.8,"text":"你說檢調是我們開的檢調專門在抓藍軍檢調專門抓藍軍 你可以抓綠軍綠軍都不抓 藍軍拼命抓為了選舉的事情拼命介入 司法界選委員不要選舉到了到處抹黑沒有意思的事你講的"},{"start":815.865,"end":830.156,"text":"你真的不是圖利就是飯桶講到你痛處所以你跟我吵架沒有我沒有飯桶我沒有圖利你飯桶或是圖利我可以講嗎不是圖利不可以講衛福部不是圖利就是飯桶"},{"start":843.507,"end":846.728,"text":"你對廢死態度怎麼樣財務委員說廢死不是目標陳菊人權會成立廢死的推動工作項目"},{"start":872.898,"end":900.4,"text":"有院長說廢除死刑是我們努力的目標啊所以民進黨推動廢死在路上在路上在哪裡在路上在路上啊黨綱把它查一查有廢死啊今天來講為什麼可以拖28個、38個、37個38、37都一樣 whatever很多為什麼這樣就是因為你們用一個叫死刑執行規則"},{"start":903.424,"end":909.126,"text":"在這裡公開呼籲大家反對被死的人票投侯友宇、張少康"},{"start":927.032,"end":927.052,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149090","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149090","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee68998896c42cdb53a27826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b5062239c163286f5825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林為洲","委員發言時間":"15:34:15 - 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raid Alert〕Missile flyover Taiwan airspace, be aware. 是Missile還是Satellite？人造衛星怎麼講？"],["陳院長建仁：satellite啊。"],["林委員為洲：怎麼寫missile？"],["陳院長建仁：這個我就……"],["林委員為洲：你寫飛彈耶！你以為臺灣人都不懂英文，是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：這個錯誤的話，我們要來更正，錯誤馬上更正。"],["林委員為洲：你在嚇臺灣人……"],["陳院長建仁：不是嚇……"],["林委員為洲：現在你又介選，是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這是不是……"],["林委員為洲：奧步啦！"],["陳院長建仁：發射衛星有很多不同的路線，為什麼一定要經過臺灣上空？這個我沒有辦法替你回答，我沒有辦法替中國來回答……"],["林委員為洲：第一次我們看到對岸發射衛星……"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有辦法幫中國來回答。"],["林委員為洲：我收兩次國家級警報，英文還寫成missile。"],["陳院長建仁：這是火箭搭載著衛星，為什麼要公告？就是我講的，這個火箭會一節、一節掉下來，而且……"],["林委員為洲：這麼剛好，選前4天。"],["陳院長建仁：有沒有介選，這是你自己講的，但是中國的衛星……"],["林委員為洲：你們在介選啊！"],["陳院長建仁：為什麼衛星……"],["林委員為洲：用這樣誤導的訊息、國家級警報，用國家機器在介選。"],["陳院長建仁：投射衛星有各種不同的路線，可是它偏偏要經過臺灣南部上空……"],["林委員為洲：那你先道歉，它的英文讓人誤導。"],["陳院長建仁：那你不覺得這需要讓民眾知道嗎？這個衛星為什麼一定要經過臺灣南部上空，要不要讓民眾知道？要啊！"],["林委員為洲：讓人誤導是當作飛彈。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有啊！"],["林委員為洲：你們發的簡訊英文，你怎麼解釋？"],["陳院長建仁：火箭搭載發射的衛星。"],["林委員為洲：你為什麼不寫Satellite？"],["陳院長建仁：我們一定要讓民眾知道，投射這個衛星之後，火箭會掉下來，大家要小心。"],["林委員為洲：不要硬拗啦！"],["陳院長建仁：為什麼它偏偏要經過臺灣南部呢？"],["林委員為洲：你的簡訊誤導民眾，讓民眾容易誤會真的是發射飛彈，對不對？你的簡訊。要不要道歉？"],["陳院長建仁：我們會更正。"],["林委員為洲：你為什麼不直接寫是artificial satellite？"],["陳院長建仁：satellite不是用launch，satellite不是用這個字。所以我想……"],["林委員為洲：你剛才不是跟我回答人造衛星英文是satellite？"],["陳院長建仁：satellite，對啊！"],["林委員為洲：你為什麼不用satellite？"],["陳院長建仁：但是satellite flyover，這一句話要小心，因為人造衛星本來就在地球周圍繞來繞去……"],["林委員為洲：你是科學家，好，你現在要來解釋。好啦……"],["陳院長建仁：這是一個投射的行為，而投射的路徑不一定要經過臺灣的南部，可是它偏偏選擇臺灣南部的這個路線。"],["林委員為洲：以前他們發過多少衛星，從來我們都不曾接受過這種國家級警報，這麼剛好，選舉前4天你就發一個容易讓人誤導的，說中共發射飛彈。"],["陳院長建仁：我也覺得在這個時候，為什麼你不去譴責中國，我們選舉要到了，為什麼偏偏要發射這個路線……"],["林委員為洲：我當然譴責啊！我常常在譴責，你沒聽過？"],["陳院長建仁：要經過臺灣南部，為什麼偏偏要經過臺灣？"],["林委員為洲：你為什麼要誤導？誤導民眾？你發的簡訊耶！你回去檢討，國防部為什麼這個簡訊寫成這個樣子？"],["陳院長建仁：這個我們錯誤的要檢討，沒錯。"],["林委員為洲：防空警報，然後寫成missile，讓人誤導是……"],["陳院長建仁：這是一個防空的警報，因為火箭的那個會掉下來、會砸到人啊！"],["林委員為洲：第一次啦！第一次有這種國家級警報是因為發射衛星。"],["陳院長建仁：它是因為經過……"],["林委員為洲：你有沒有接過這種警報？"],["陳院長建仁：以往發射衛星沒有經過臺灣南部上空，所以為什麼我剛才講……"],["林委員為洲：不要用這種奧步啦！"],["陳院長建仁：為什麼中國偏偏要發射衛星經過臺灣南部上空？你要去問中國啊！你怎麼問我？"],["林委員為洲：什麼問中國，你自己解讀錯誤，你還問中國！"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有解讀錯誤，它明明有經過臺灣南部上空……"],["林委員為洲：衛星，不是飛彈。"],["陳院長建仁：那為什麼在選前4天它要選擇這一個路線？問中國！請委員……"],["林委員為洲：以前有經過，你們都不會發啦！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有！以前打衛星的時候沒有經過臺灣上空。"],["林委員為洲：以前連飛彈飛過，你都沒發過這種國家級警報！"],["陳院長建仁：所以委員你去問中國嘛……"],["林委員為洲：好啦，民眾……"],["陳院長建仁：你為什麼凡事都沒有去問中國？明明中國發射的衛星，為什麼要選擇這一條路線、選擇這個時間內來去……"],["林委員為洲：這個我們常常在講……"],["陳院長建仁：所以你要去問它。"],["林委員為洲：我跟你講，蔡英文總統上臺以後，兩岸中線不見了，這個也是事實嘛，國民黨執政的時候沒有這種問題呀！"],["陳院長建仁：因為你……"],["林委員為洲：因為什麼？"],["陳院長建仁：你屈服給中國，當然……"],["林委員為洲：什麼叫屈服？有賣臺了嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：你贊成要統一呀！"],["林委員為洲：我沒有贊成要統一喔，我沒有贊成要統一呀！"],["陳院長建仁：我說……我不是指你呀。"],["林委員為洲：我支持我們的憲法！"],["陳院長建仁：馬英九總統的時候是這樣子呀。"],["林委員為洲：我們支持我們的憲法，憲法怎麼規定，我們就怎麼做，你不支持我們憲法嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：那我們的憲法修正草案怎麼說？"],["林委員為洲：憲法是災難嗎？我們的治權就是臺澎金馬。"],["陳院長建仁：喔，臺澎金馬。"],["林委員為洲：憲法修正條……這個……"],["陳院長建仁：修正條文怎麼說？"],["林委員為洲：對呀，臺澎金馬是我們的治權。"],["陳院長建仁：是呀。"],["林委員為洲：但是我們國家叫中華民國。"],["陳院長建仁：是，我們的國家叫中華民國。"],["林委員為洲：固有疆域有包括中國大陸。"],["陳院長建仁：那是固有疆域……"],["林委員為洲：對。"],["陳院長建仁：那你延長……"],["林委員為洲：兩岸條例就是在處理這個問題呀。"],["陳院長建仁：蒙古的固有疆域包括中國……"],["林委員為洲：那你不認同我們的憲法？"],["陳院長建仁：不是，蒙古……我們的固有疆域包括中國……"],["林委員為洲：你們現在民進黨不是多數？"],["陳院長建仁：修正條文就講……"],["林委員為洲：好啦！我要提出……"],["陳院長建仁：中華民國憲法……"],["林委員為洲：好啦！我們沒有要來跟你辯論憲法。"],["陳院長建仁：你剛才講臺澎金馬，你講的……"],["林委員為洲：我在這裡嚴厲譴責國防部，民進黨政府在選前4天發了這樣的一個國家級警報，有的人收4次、有人收2次，發射一個衛星誤導成說發射飛彈……"],["陳院長建仁：那你為什麼不譴責中國？"],["林委員為洲：顯然就是故意要介選。"],["陳院長建仁：你們譴責中國偏偏在選舉的時候發射……"],["林委員為洲：沒有人要你回答！現在我們來談高端，我還有時間，是我在質詢。"],["陳院長建仁：但是我們共用時間呀。"],["林委員為洲：OK，我問你才答嘛，你不能問我問題嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有問你呀。"],["林委員為洲：這個是規定呀。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["林委員為洲：好不好？我也可以叫你不回答，你也可以……"],["陳院長建仁：我可以徵求你的同意嘛……"],["林委員為洲：我叫你不回答，你就不用回答，我要繼續講。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["林委員為洲：我要演講也可以嘛，是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：對、對、對。"],["林委員為洲：這個是我的時間。"],["陳院長建仁：那我會徵求你的同意。"],["林委員為洲：那個高端啦，我早上也一直聽到你提到這個高端，你特別提到說，高端是一個好的疫苗。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["林委員為洲：是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是，當然是，國際認證。"],["林委員為洲：好啦，高端的這個COVID-19，我們現在只講它的COVID-19這個疫苗啦……"],["陳院長建仁：也是國際認證的好疫苗。"],["林委員為洲：其他的疫苗我們不談啦。"],["陳院長建仁：也是國際認證。"],["林委員為洲：國際認可，它有賣給哪一個國家嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：它現在有世界衛生組織跟它簽一個技術授權的……如果有需要的……"],["林委員為洲：有賣1劑嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不是，都是全部的技術的合約喔。"],["林委員為洲：有收入嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當然有技轉就是有收入……"],["林委員為洲：到目前為止除了賣流感疫苗，其他疫苗有啦，但是賣這COVID-19疫苗的收入是零，除了中華民國衛福部跟它買500萬劑……"],["陳院長建仁：那還好買了這……"],["林委員為洲：這是事實啊。"],["陳院長建仁：那我可以回答嗎？我可以回答嗎？"],["林委員為洲：你還說高端是好疫苗……"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["林委員為洲：那請問為什麼去日本打高端不算耶？這是要怎麼說？"],["陳院長建仁：現在換我……"],["林委員為洲：不然給你說一下，為什麼日本不認可？"],["陳院長建仁：日本當時是說，只要被世界衛生組織認可的疫苗它都接受，因為……"],["林委員為洲：我們真的沒有被衛生組織認可。"],["陳院長建仁：但是因為我們還沒有。"],["林委員為洲：還沒有。"],["陳院長建仁：可是我要講的是……"],["林委員為洲：現在有了嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：打了這個300萬……現在日本根本入境都不需要……"],["林委員為洲：沒有啦，現在已經被WHO認可了嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這300萬劑的疫苗打下去以後，我們發現它的效益是跟BNT、跟莫德納一樣的好，比AZ還好，那比起……"],["林委員為洲：那是你在講的。"],["陳院長建仁：這論文發表，所以就反科學啊！"],["林委員為洲：日本都不認同啊！"],["陳院長建仁：這是新興傳染病這一個重要的學術期刊發表的論文，你如果連這個都否認，那就不用講，不用在這裡講哪一個疫苗好啦！"],["林委員為洲：好啦！你要辯你就這樣去辯，人家日本就打臉你嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：本來就是這樣啊！這是國際認證的疫苗。"],["林委員為洲：你打AZ、打BNT都可以到日本，結果打高端就不行，你還要再打別的，這是事實啊！不是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是事實，但是是日本當時的規定。"],["林委員為洲：日本科技不發達嗎？生醫沒有我們發達，是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["林委員為洲：確實？"],["陳院長建仁：我現在講嘛，日本發展出來的COVID-19疫苗沒有一個成功的，沒有一個像高端一樣成功的。"],["林委員為洲：好啦！我現在問你，到底高端的合約你有看過嗎？我們衛福部跟高端訂的合約，你看過沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：我有看過，院長應該沒有。"],["林委員為洲：院長沒看過，所以你要講，有時候你自己都不知道內容欸！"],["陳院長建仁：我……"],["林委員為洲：你沒看過啊！人家部長說你沒看過，你看過嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：詳細的我沒有看過。"],["林委員為洲：好啦，那就問部長吧！價格是多少？一劑。"],["薛部長瑞元：價格，這個高端公司曾經自己發表過，單劑的話是881，如果多劑型的話是810塊，然後它贈送20萬劑。"],["林委員為洲：好啦，這樣我知道了，問你這個問題嘛，881實在是滿貴的啦，加上我們對它的補助款四億多，合起來1,000塊一劑啊，比BNT還貴啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：怎麼會有1,000塊這個說法？"],["林委員為洲：你有另外補助四億多，算一算一劑等於是1,000塊。"],["薛部長瑞元：就沒有啊！就跟你說八百多塊啊。"],["林委員為洲：八百多塊那是買疫苗的錢，你們有另外……人家那個董事會的錄音帶都出來了啦，說你們有另外補助它四億多啊，不是嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦，那個是什麼……"],["林委員為洲：董事會亂講的？"],["陳院長建仁：這是疫苗研發時候的補助。"],["林委員為洲：以外的……"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊！對啊！"],["林委員為洲：不是購買疫苗的錢啊！"],["陳院長建仁：吳委員已經講了啊，全世界每一個國家在研發的過程當中都會補助廠商，我們補助了國光……"],["林委員為洲：四億多。"],["陳院長建仁：補助了聯亞，也補助高端，這是在研發的過程……"],["林委員為洲：跟國外廠商最大的差別……"],["陳院長建仁：美國就補助輝瑞4,000億。"],["林委員為洲：我知道，好，跟國外廠商……"],["陳院長建仁：所以該不該補助？該不該研發？要嘛！"],["林委員為洲：那個跟國外廠商不一樣的是，高端就沒經過三期的認證，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：委員如果有打過莫德納、BNT，這些也還沒有過三期。"],["林委員為洲：人家國外有補助，BNT這些都有補助。"],["陳院長建仁：你當時打BNT……"],["林委員為洲：全球各國家都認同，你的高端就沒有國家認同，只有我們衛福部是唯一的客人，顧客只有一個。"],["陳院長建仁：你講三期的疫苗，委員，你當時如果打BNT、打莫德納，你打的也不是三期臨床實驗後的疫苗喔，不是喔！你一定要有這樣的一個觀念。"],["林委員為洲：你們現在到底要公開這個合約了沒有？決定了沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分的話，高端公司已經對外發了聲明，下午的時候他們也……"],["林委員為洲：人家高端在重大訊息……"],["薛部長瑞元：他們準備開董事會。"],["林委員為洲：高端的重訊都說不是我們不公布，是因為衛福部機關要求公開……"],["薛部長瑞元：這是錯誤，早上已經有解釋過了。"],["林委員為洲：那請金管會，院長，部長沒有辦法管到高端，金管會要管一下，重大訊息發布錯誤，這要罰款的，有沒有罰則？重大訊息發布假訊息，這有沒有罰則？請說！"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，櫃買中心對重大訊息如果有內容的問題，櫃買會決定到底……"],["林委員為洲：罰款還是怎麼樣？"],["黃主任委員天牧：過去的案例是罰款。"],["林委員為洲：好，有聽到了喔！因為人家薛部長都講了那個是假訊息。"],["黃主任委員天牧：但是前提必須是內容有錯誤，這要看櫃買去認定。"],["林委員為洲：好啦！時間的關係，我最後再問一次啦，到底什麼時候高端疫苗合約會公告給國人周知？到底什麼時候？"],["薛部長瑞元：我剛剛已經報告過，高端公司已經決定要召開臨時董事會了，那它……"],["林委員為洲：遙遙無期。"],["薛部長瑞元：不能這樣講。"],["林委員為洲：你要求它啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：它召開董事會……"],["林委員為洲：你是客戶欸！"],["薛部長瑞元：給我們一個訊息……"],["林委員為洲：人家現在買到疫苗的人有疑慮，客戶……你跟它購買……"],["陳院長建仁：我們的合約是簽5年保密協定，政府要信守誠信。"],["林委員為洲：哎呀！這些聽就好，民眾聽不下去。"],["陳院長建仁：他們現在也同意去討論。"],["林委員為洲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員都已經詢答完畢，謝謝陳院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。","作以下之決定：一、將各委員發言紀錄及書面質詢函送行政院，請就未答復部分予以書面答復。二、已提出之書面質詢，尚未登載公報者，一律補刊。","報告院會，本次會議所列議程已經處理完畢。依據立法院議事規則第五十四條規定，本屆最後一次院會之議事錄於散會前宣讀，現在請林秘書長宣讀第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議議事錄。（全文見本期議事錄）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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碰到選舉製造緊張嗎"},{"start":74.023,"end":76.787,"text":"以前飛彈飛過臺灣領空說大氣層不屬於領空沒有發國家警報現在發射一個衛星"},{"start":85.114,"end":94.519,"text":"你發國家急警報我收到兩次你還講說是飛彈這是我的口誤但是呢確實是有經過台灣的上面寫的剛才一看還沒有看完的時候我就上來了"},{"start":104.624,"end":107.427,"text":"3點05分中國發射衛星已飛越南部上空請民眾注意安全若發現不明物體"},{"start":119.704,"end":144.713,"text":"通報警消人員處理那個衛星是會掉下來是不是不明物體人家會發射衛星你在警告我們的民眾推動的火箭的每一節每一節的火箭都會落到地下為什麼要提高警覺為什麼要提高警覺這個容易讓人誤解你看他的英文叫Air Raid Alert"},{"start":145.513,"end":170.168,"text":"MISOFLY OVER TAIWAN AIR 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over這一句話要小心因為人造衛星本來就在地球上飛過去"},{"start":303.371,"end":306.815,"text":"這是一個投射的行為以前他們發過多少衛星從來我們都不曾接受過這種國家級警報這剛好選舉前四天"},{"start":323.087,"end":323.347,"text":"防空警報"},{"start":352.827,"end":363.896,"text":"然後寫成MISO讓人不倒是這是一個黃昏的警報因為火箭的那個會掉下來會砸到人第一次有這種國家級警報是因為發射衛星"},{"start":368.524,"end":371.006,"text":"他明明有經過台灣南部上空那為什麼"},{"start":390.558,"end":402.842,"text":"在選前4天他要選擇這一個路線問中國請委員以前連飛彈飛過你都沒搭坐這種國家級警報所以委員你去問中國嘛你為什麼凡事都沒有去問中國明明中國發射的衛星為什麼要選擇這條路線你選擇在這4天來去"},{"start":420.272,"end":427.846,"text":"蔡英文總統上台以後兩岸中線不見了這個也是事實嘛國民黨執政的時候沒有這種問題啊"},{"start":429.741,"end":450.336,"text":"那因為你屈服屈服給中國當然要屈服我們要抬了嗎你贊成要統一阿我沒有贊成要統一阿我不是說你阿我支持我們的憲法馬英九總統的時候是這樣子阿我們支持我們的憲法憲法怎麼規定我們就怎麼做你不支持我們憲法嗎那我們的"},{"start":452.437,"end":475.012,"text":"憲法是災難嗎?修正條文怎麼說?我們的治權就是臺澎金馬修正條文怎麼說?就是臺澎金馬是我們的治權但是我們國家叫中華民國固有疆域包括中國大陸那是固有疆域?那你延長的...法案條例就是在處理這個問題啊那你不認同我們的憲法?"},{"start":478.695,"end":479.575,"text":"在這裡嚴厲譴責國防部"},{"start":494.46,"end":509.648,"text":"民進黨政府在這個選前4天發了這樣的一個國家級警告有人說4次 有人說2次發射一個衛星誤導成說發射飛彈顯然就是故意要借選現在我們來談高端我還有時間的喔是我在質詢"},{"start":520.083,"end":532.631,"text":"但是我們共用時間啊OK 這個我問你才答嘛 你不能問我問題嘛這個是規定啊 對不對 好不好我也可以叫你不回答 你也可以"},{"start":533.735,"end":534.696,"text":"高端是一個好的疫苗"},{"start":550.831,"end":554.635,"text":"他現在有世界衛生組織跟他簽一個技術授權的"},{"start":569.599,"end":575.841,"text":"除了賣流感疫苗其他疫苗有啦但是賣這個COVID19疫苗的收入是零除了"},{"start":589.554,"end":601.732,"text":"中華民國衛福部跟他買五百萬劑這是事實啊你還說高端是好疫苗那請問為什麼去日本打高端不算欸"},{"start":602.952,"end":605.913,"text":"日本當時是說只要被世界衛生組織認可的疫苗他都接受我們這個沒有被衛生組織認可現在有了嗎"},{"start":621.861,"end":636.769,"text":"現在日本根本入境都不需要沒有啦現在已經被WHO認可了嗎這300萬劑的疫苗打下去以後我們發現它的效益是跟BNT跟莫德納是一樣的好比AZ還好那比起AZ你講的"},{"start":638.67,"end":640.992,"text":"這是國際認證的法治條你打AZ打BNT都可以到日本結果打高端都不行你要再打八項這是事實"},{"start":664.671,"end":667.312,"text":"到底高端的合約你有看過嗎?衛福部跟高端訂的合約你看過沒有?"},{"start":688.874,"end":693.975,"text":"我有看過 院長應該沒有院長沒看過 所以你要講 有時候你自己都不知道內容欸"},{"start":695.816,"end":718.692,"text":"你沒看過 人家部長說你沒看過這一個詳細的沒有看過我沒有看過部長那就問部長吧價格是多少 一季啊價格 這個高端公司曾經自己發表過那如果單季的話是881那如果多季型的話是810塊然後他贈送20萬季"},{"start":721.974,"end":725.295,"text":"所以我問你這個問題881實在是蠻貴的加上我們對他的補助款4億多合起來1000塊一劑比BNT還貴"},{"start":737.619,"end":757.714,"text":"怎麼會有一千塊這個事?你如果補助另外一個死的我,你還要算上去,算上下去一計等於是一千塊,那就告訴你八百多塊啊八百多塊那是買疫苗的錢,你們有另外,人家那個董事會的錄音帶都出來了啊所以你們有另外補助他四億多啊,不是嗎?"},{"start":758.394,"end":759.155,"text":"所以該不該補助 該不該研發 要嗎"},{"start":786.678,"end":810.178,"text":"那個跟國外廠商不一樣的是高端就沒經過三期的這個認證委員如果有打過那些莫德納啦BMP啊BMP這些都有補助讓全球各國家都認同你的高端就沒有國家認同只有我們衛福部是唯一的客人"},{"start":810.979,"end":828.998,"text":"你講三期的疫苗委員你當時如果打BNT打莫德納你打的也不是三期臨床實驗後的疫苗喔不是喔你一定要有這樣的一個觀念你們現在到底要公開這個合約了沒有決定了沒有"},{"start":829.258,"end":831.699,"text":"高端的重大訊息重訊都說不是我們不公布是因為衛福部機關要求錯誤早上已經有解釋過"},{"start":849.608,"end":876.465,"text":"請金管會 這個院長 這個部長沒有辦法管到高端金管會要管一下 重大訊息發布錯誤這要罰款的 要罰則的 有沒有罰則重大訊息發布假訊息這有沒有罰則請說有 櫃買中心有對重大訊息如果有內容的問題櫃買會決定他到底有沒有罰款還是怎麼樣"},{"start":877.363,"end":878.203,"text":"高端公司已經決定要召開臨時董事會"},{"start":904.889,"end":908.273,"text":"我們的合約是簽5年保密協定政府要信守誠信"}]}},{"id":"149089","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149089","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee689685d334da2769968826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50facd5f77c04e03735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳玉琴","委員發言時間":"15:18:32 - 15:34:04","影片長度":"00:15:32","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":932,"end_time":"2024-01-09T15:34:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T15:18:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":382,"blocks":[["吳委員玉琴：（15時18分）謝謝游院長，有請陳院長及衛福部薛部長。"],["主席：陳院長請、薛部長請。"],["吳委員玉琴：陳院長辛苦了！"],["陳院長建仁：吳委員好。不好意思，因為剛才我接到一個簡訊說中國發射這一個飛彈。"],["吳委員玉琴：我剛剛也看到這個簡訊了，所以中共對我們的威脅是一直在的。"],["陳院長建仁：確實，確實時時都在。"],["吳委員玉琴：院長，今天在總統大選的前4天召開這樣的臨時會，其實是相當罕見的，今天針對高端的議題又再重啟，很多不實的訊息也希望藉由這一次臨時會跟國人做一個清楚說明。事實上，從第10屆在衛環委員會或是在院會的報告裡面，院長已經做3次報告了，我們在衛環委員會調閱小組就開了6次，我們都一直在衛環委員會，衛環裡面的專報或是公聽會也開了12次。其實疫苗的事情我們在第3會期、第4會期非常密集的討論，那今天又重啟，我覺得也好，讓我們執政團隊可以針對高端的議題來好好說清楚，所以今天有這個機會也來跟院長再請教一下，就是說現在疫苗的採購本來就涉及很多的商業機密，簽訂保密合作合約其實是正常的情形，在野黨不斷地……當時我們第3會期、第4會期的時候，我們其實有個衛環的調閱小組，在調閱資料裡面他們都說我們塗黑啦、遮蔽啦，對我們這個內容有一些攻擊，那我想請問院長或是我們部長，如果依照在野黨的要求完全不遮蔽，也不把個別的機密資訊遮蔽的話，會有什麼問題？部長回答。"],["薛部長瑞元：如果沒有遮蔽的話，就沒有辦法避免洩漏出去，洩漏出去的話，會影響到以後我們在做採購疫苗的時候，對於這一些國外的廠商對我們的信任度，可能我們就會買不到疫苗、買不到藥品。"],["吳委員玉琴：這是一個合約的規定裡面保密的原則，如果不遵守，那接下來沒有人跟我們做生意了……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有錯。"],["吳委員玉琴：也沒有人會賣疫苗給我們。當時我們在所謂的採購疫苗調閱專案小組上面其實也有相關的規定，就是我們在調閱資料的時候，其實是我委員本身進去看資料也要負有保密的責任……"],["薛部長瑞元：確實。"],["吳委員玉琴：但是當時其實我們有委員去看了之後，出來他說用默背的背出來然後寫下來，然後再公告於媒體，這樣的情形其實就已經違背了我們的調閱小組運作裡面的保密原則。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有錯，而且這位委員還是法律人出身。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，所以我覺得立法院要做監督，我們沒有意見，但是你還是要守法。"],["陳院長建仁：確定。"],["吳委員玉琴：如果不守法，我覺得我們到國際去跟人家做生意或是購買相關的疫苗，我覺得我們沒辦法取信於所有的企業方。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以我自己在看這個我都覺得有點……要怎麼說？自己是……"],["陳院長建仁：不可思議。"],["吳委員玉琴：執法的人然後又違法，然後還沾沾自喜覺得這個是在破解我們執政團隊的所謂說謊，我覺得對整個國家的殺傷力是非常大的，所以我自己覺得不可取，但是在野黨一直都用這種方式來覺得自己是打弊、揭弊，可是違反了我們身為一個合約的當事人，我們怎麼彼此信守承諾，所以我想這部分也是要來跟……執政團隊真的辛苦了。這個保密的期限，我們剛剛好像好幾個委員都有問過，高端是5年嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：5年，對。"],["吳委員玉琴：那其他的呢？其他的應該不用……有的都比高端還長。"],["陳院長建仁：AZ5年，Novavax7年，然後BNT10年。"],["吳委員玉琴：那莫德納不能……"],["陳院長建仁：莫德納是不公開。"],["吳委員玉琴：不公開。"],["陳院長建仁：委員在這裡我跟你補充說明一下，剛才講說是發射衛星的警報，我再更正一下，因為它講到發射，我剛才看得很快，所以要更正一下。但是剛才講的疫苗保存的期限，確實每一個公司的要求都不一樣，像莫德納就是不公開。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，所以我們今天一直在談說要針對高端的保密要公開，我覺得如果這件事針對BNT好了，或是針對我們的AZ說我們要求它公開，你覺得這些國際廠它會什麼態度看臺灣？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，包括鴻海也不敢去公開BNT的合約。"],["吳委員玉琴：是吧！"],["陳院長建仁：就沒有誠信嘛！"],["吳委員玉琴：對，因為你看我們好不容易購買到像BNT這麼好的疫苗進來，我們都不希望打破或打壞所謂國際的合約，現在我覺得在野黨沒有人在問說那為什麼不公開其他的疫苗，因為這是一個大家要信守的，不是針對高端，是所有我們採購的疫苗，這是一個國際合約，這是一個契約的關係，所以不能隨便打破。"],["陳院長建仁：完全同意。"],["吳委員玉琴：對嘛！所以大家很奇怪只有針對高端在打，我們對自己的國產疫苗這樣的打壓，我就不知道為什麼，整個看起來實在是……"],["陳院長建仁：太明顯地選擇性了啦！"],["吳委員玉琴：是，選擇性地打壓我們國產的疫苗。我想還有一個問題，就是說大家都在講說這個抹黑也是封存30年，這個合約封存30年，部長已經不知道解釋幾遍了，但是聽進去的就聽進去，沒有聽進去的還是沒有聽進去。"],["薛部長瑞元：有的人是文字不太懂，封存跟封、跟保存搞不清楚。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以是公文保存30年啦！公文保存30年沒問題，如果以高端來講，保密是5年。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員玉琴：我現在想問的是，我們這些合約真的都不能公開嗎？我記得……"],["薛部長瑞元：時間到就可以啊！原則上時間到就可以。"],["吳委員玉琴：今天早上院長的報告裡面也有談到，監察院還有審計部其實都看過合約了，因為是公務上的需要，司法上如果法院需要的話，也是可以看吧？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：不過在這邊也跟委員報告一下，今天下午的時候，高端已經正式對外聲明，它會召開董事會決定是否公開。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，所以他們最近會召開董事會來決議要不要公開嘛……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，他們已經發出聲明。"],["吳委員玉琴：要不要提早公開啦！"],["陳院長建仁：我們有多次跟它聯繫，它今天也對外公布。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，表示國人希望及早知道，但我想也是要公司這邊……"],["陳院長建仁：我想這樣雙方對彼此都尊重，這是合約裡面最重要的，也顯示我們中華民國政府對於合約的誠信，未來我們要採購任何的藥物、疫苗等等，或者甚至簽其他商業契約、合約的時候，人家才會相信中華民國政府是一個值得交易、很好的簽契約對象。"],["吳委員玉琴：如果我們政府不講信用，確實沒有人敢跟我們做合約或契約買賣。"],["陳院長建仁：當然。"],["吳委員玉琴：我也不是要幫高端講，其實疫苗是一個非常專業的科學，所以不要每次到了選舉，其實也一年多了，平息了一段時間，因為現在又要選舉了，所以又開始讓這個議題再起。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員玉琴：又要引起民眾對高端的仇恨值或是所謂的疑慮，我想實在是不需要，政治的歸政治，科學的歸科學。我身為一個臺灣人也很焦慮，每次選舉到了，在野黨一次再一次操作疫苗或是這樣的仇恨，我覺得我們所謂的國內產業，誰敢再讓我們國家培植？因為每次培植一出來就被打成這樣。"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["吳委員玉琴：我們的生醫科技看到真是有點惋惜，這樣的政治打壓讓我們對國內的生醫科技發展也是非常擔憂。"],["陳院長建仁：其實臺灣人的本性是慈悲、善良還有謙讓，也願意照顧弱勢，像發口罩的時候，我們說「我OK，你先請」。但是我們發現在疫苗這件事情上就變成不斷抹黑、不斷說錯假訊息，以至於民眾對於疫苗的副作用被誇大而不願意打疫苗，像這樣不正確訊息的傳播，實際上是讓臺灣的老人家不願意打疫苗一個很重要的原因，我們的調查就是說有副作用，還有人說打疫苗死的比感染的人多，當這些錯假消息到處漫布的時候，實際上就使得這些老人家不願意去接種疫苗，所以臺灣老人家的疫苗接種率只有七成多，日本、韓國跟新加坡都到九成五以上，當然到後來Omicron來的時候，這些人就不幸死亡，這是讓我們很痛心的事情。所以我完全贊成你的講法，要講科學的證據以及效果在哪裡，不要製造分裂、不要製造假消息，更不要製造仇恨，為了政治目的來製造仇恨，我覺得這很不可取。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，我非常支持院長的一個說明。剛剛又有委員說高端完全依賴政府，好像不是事實吧？"],["陳院長建仁：不是。"],["吳委員玉琴：有關高端的腸病毒疫苗，院長還有部長應該很熟悉，現在高端的腸病毒疫苗市占率到底有多少？您有研究嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，目前腸病毒71型的疫苗，臺灣有兩支，一支是安特羅、一支是高端，總共已經封緘檢驗的大概是23萬，高端占22萬3,000。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以大概占九成左右的市占率？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，已經九成多了。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以這很專業嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對，所以它是一個好的疫苗……"],["吳委員玉琴：能夠研發出一個腸病毒的疫苗……"],["陳院長建仁：所以剛才委員講說它就只有靠COVID-19疫苗……"],["吳委員玉琴：靠我們高端……"],["薛部長瑞元：它那個是自費的，而且價格也不低。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以高端有它研發的能力，然後它自己也研發腸病毒疫苗，我覺得這個就是我們要培植的一個國產公司疫苗，因為疫苗是戰略物資，如果真的有狀況的時候，臺灣自己要有自己的疫苗，有這樣的研發能力，然後培植它能夠研發新的、好的疫苗來幫助國人的健康。我覺得我們不能一手打高端，一手又要高端的疫苗，每次選舉的時候就來這一招，真的是會影響我們生醫產業的發展。"],["陳院長建仁：確實啦！當時我們在決定COVID-19疫苗要國際採購，以及國內發展的時候，就公開徵求國內所有的生醫廠、疫苗製造者能夠進來。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以不是圖利高端……"],["陳院長建仁：所以有國光、有聯亞，還有高端啊！"],["吳委員玉琴：對嘛！有3家嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：有4家，但是有1家後來不願意，安特羅不願意進來，所以有3家，所以政府是全面地來照顧臺灣的生醫產業，鼓勵它們好好做研發，成為世界一流的疫苗廠。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以院長……"],["陳院長建仁：做到這麼好的疫苗……"],["吳委員玉琴：其實我們當時這樣支持……"],["陳院長建仁：很好啊！"],["吳委員玉琴：我們國內的廠商進來研發疫苗，原來4家，後來3家，有的進一期，有的進二期嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員玉琴：其實我們投入的金額沒有很高，高端才4.6，然後聯亞也……"],["陳院長建仁：美國4,000億啦！"],["吳委員玉琴：所以我覺得我們投入的並沒有很多，但是國內的廠商真的算是厲害，有自己的研發能力，而且產出很好的疫苗，我想接下來全世界應該會對於我們的疫苗是很認同的。","當然我們看到賴副總統也提到高端合約要公布，我剛剛也請部長再說一次，就是高端下午的公布是說它們即將要開董事會。"],["薛部長瑞元：它們即將要召開董事會來決定是否同意及什麼時候要公開。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以這個部分我們還是要尊重高端這邊，因為我們畢竟也是一個雙方的合約。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員玉琴：我們不能強迫它一定要公開，但是我們看到國內的情勢，當然如果能公開，我們一起讓這個訊息能夠公開透明，讓高端也不要每次都變成大家的箭靶。"],["陳院長建仁：對，政府的立場也是主張可以公開，我們就儘量跟高端協商，然後希望它能夠公開，我們很高興看到它願意召開董事會來做決定。"],["吳委員玉琴：以一個上市公司來講，它們開董事會大概要花多長時間？以他們的預期？"],["陳院長建仁：我印象中是董事會召開前一個禮拜要通知、要說明，然後它們來開董事會。那像這件事情的話，我們很高興看到高端願意這樣來做了。"],["吳委員玉琴：它們已經要進行了。","院長，最後一點時間，因為最近疫情好像又再起，快要春節了，又要選舉，很多人來來往往的，是不是請院長這邊再宣導一次要趕快鼓勵大家再打疫苗？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我想這個很重要，所以謝謝委員，你一向很關心國人的健康。這個XBB的COVID-19疫苗對於最近在中國大陸的JN.1病毒株是有效果的，所以我也在這裡鼓勵所有民眾都一定要再來接種一次COVID-19 XBB疫苗。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，謝謝院長，辛苦了，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳委員。","接下來請林委員為洲質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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我剛剛也看到這個警訊了對所以中共對我們的威脅是一直在的確實 確實時時都在"},{"start":36.203,"end":61.599,"text":"院長我想今天在總統大選的前4天召開這樣的臨時會其實是相當罕見的那我想今天又針對高端的議題又再重啟我想很多的不許的一個訊息其實希望藉這一次的這個臨時會也能夠跟國人做的一個清楚的說明事實上從第10屆我們在這個衛黃委員會或是在院會的這個報告裡面"},{"start":63.28,"end":81.987,"text":"院長已經做3次報告了我們在胃環委員會調閱小組就開了6次我幾乎常我們都一直在胃環嘛那這個胃環裡面的專報或是這個公聽會也開了12次所以其實疫苗的事情我們在第3會期第4會期其實非常密集的討論"},{"start":83.187,"end":99.142,"text":"今天又重啟我覺得也好讓我們執政團隊可以針對高端的議題來好好說清楚所以今天有這個機會也來跟院長再請教一下現在這個疫苗的採購本來就涉及很多的商業的機密"},{"start":100.123,"end":100.863,"text":"吳玉琴議員吳玉琴議員吳玉琴議員"},{"start":123.492,"end":152.038,"text":"依照在野黨的要求完全不遮蔽那也不把個別的這個這個機密的資訊遮蔽的話會有什麼問題部長回答如果說沒有遮蔽的話那就沒有辦法避免洩露出去那這個洩露出去的話那會影響到以後我們在做採購疫苗的時候那對於這些國外的廠商對我們的信任度"},{"start":152.598,"end":180.145,"text":"那可能我們就會買不到疫苗買不到藥品這是一個合約的規定裡面這個保密的原則如果不遵守那接下來沒有人跟我們做生意了沒有人會賣疫苗給我們那當時我們在這個所謂的採購疫苗調閱專案小組上面其實也有相關的規定就是我們在調閱資料的時候我們其實是委員本身進去看資料也要負有保密的一個責任的但是當時其實"},{"start":181.585,"end":183.366,"text":"這位委員還是法律人出身"},{"start":200.915,"end":201.115,"text":"吳玉琴議員"},{"start":222.085,"end":222.385,"text":"吳玉琴議員"},{"start":248.212,"end":251.513,"text":"其他的呢?其他的應該有的都比高端還長"},{"start":276.283,"end":303.148,"text":"AZ5年 NOVAVAX7年然後這個VNT10年然後莫德納是不公開委員在這裡我跟你補充說明一下我剛才講說是發射衛星的警報我再更正一下因為他講到發射我剛才看得很快所以我要更正一下但是剛才講的這個疫苗保存的期限確實是每一個公司他的要求都不一樣像莫德納他就是不公開"},{"start":304.249,"end":319.559,"text":"所以我們今天一直在談說要針對高端的這個保密要公開那我覺得如果這件事針對BNT好了或是針對我們的AZ說我們要求他公開你覺得對這些國際廠他為什麼態度看台灣"},{"start":325.605,"end":348.556,"text":"對,包括說鴻海也不敢去公開BNT的合約因為就沒有誠信嘛對,因為你看我們好不容易購買到像BNT這麼好的一個疫苗進來我們都不希望打破或打壞這個所謂國際的這個合約嘛所以沒有,現在我覺得在野黨沒有人在問說那為什麼不公開其他的疫苗"},{"start":349.436,"end":349.957,"text":"太明顯的選擇性了啦"},{"start":372.312,"end":374.452,"text":"有的人是文字是不太懂封存跟封"},{"start":396.72,"end":397.941,"text":"我們這些合約真的都不能公開嗎?"},{"start":410.556,"end":427.504,"text":"時間到了就可以啊原則上時間到了就可以今天早上院長的報告裡面其實也談到監察院還有審計部其實都看過合約了因為那是公務上的需要跟司法上如果法院需要的話也是可以看的嘛"},{"start":428.934,"end":454.599,"text":"對不過在這邊也跟委員報告一下那今天下午的時候那個高端已經宣 正式對外做聲明他會召開董事會來決定是否要公開是 所以他們最近會召開那個董事會來決議說要不要公開嗎要不然提早公開啦因為我們有多次跟他聯繫那他今天也對外公布這樣子"},{"start":455.772,"end":474.167,"text":"所以表示國人希望及早知道但是我想也是要我們公司這邊我想這樣子雙方都有一個彼此的尊重就是合約裡面最重要的也顯示了我們中華民國政府對於合約的誠信對於未來我們要採購任何的藥物"},{"start":474.767,"end":501.74,"text":"疫苗等等或者甚至簽其他的商業企業的合約的時候呢那人家才會相信說中華民國政府是一個值得跟我們有交易的有很好的簽企業的對象也確實如果我們政府不講信用沒有人敢跟我們再做這個合約或契約的一個買賣那我想也不是要幫高端講就是說其實疫苗是一個非常專業的一個"},{"start":503.401,"end":503.662,"text":"吳玉琴"},{"start":528.238,"end":543.428,"text":"即使身為一個臺灣人也很焦慮的是說每次在選舉到了一次再一次的這個在野黨在操作這個疫苗或是操作這樣的仇恨我覺得那我們國內的國產的所謂的這個產業誰敢再讓我們國家賠錢"},{"start":549.011,"end":553.135,"text":"其實臺灣人的本性是慈悲善良還有謙讓然後也願意照顧弱勢像口罩的時候我們不是說我OK你先請"},{"start":575.854,"end":592.592,"text":"但是我們會發現在這個疫苗這件事情上的時候就變成了不斷的抹黑不斷的照說明了假 錯假的訊息以至於民眾對於疫苗的這個副作用被誇大而不願意打疫苗"},{"start":592.952,"end":608.122,"text":"那像這樣的一個不正確的信息的傳播實際上是阻止了讓台灣的老人家不願意打疫苗一個很重要的原因我們的調查就說要有副作用還有人說打疫苗使得比感染的人多"},{"start":608.502,"end":633.829,"text":"那這些錯假消息到處漫步的時候呢實際上就使得這些老人家不願意去接受疫苗所以台灣的疫苗老人家的疫苗接種率只有7成多日本、韓國跟新加坡都到9成5以上當然我們這個到後來Omicron來的時候這些人就不幸會死亡這是讓我們很痛心的事情所以齁我完全贊成你的就是說完全要講科學的證據然後呢它的效果在哪裡"},{"start":634.349,"end":645.482,"text":"那不要製造分裂不要製造這個假消息那更不要製造仇恨那利用仇恨為了政治目的來製造仇恨我覺得這很不可取"},{"start":646.617,"end":647.658,"text":"高端的長病毒疫苗市佔率多少?"},{"start":670.9,"end":684.334,"text":"目前長病毒71的疫苗台灣有兩支一支是安特羅一支是高端總共已經封建檢驗的大概是23萬高端佔22萬3千"},{"start":687.465,"end":704.854,"text":"所以大概在9成左右的市佔率對 是已經9成多了所以這很專業嘛能不能研發出一個長病毒的疫苗所以剛才那個委員講說他就只有靠COVID-19疫苗他那個是自費的而且價格也不低"},{"start":706.635,"end":722.836,"text":"高端有它研發的能力它自己也研發了長病毒的疫苗我覺得這個就是我們要培植的國產的一個公司疫苗因為疫苗是戰略物資啊如果當真的有狀況的時候台灣自己要有自己的疫苗"},{"start":723.297,"end":724.077,"text":"吳玉琴議員吳玉琴議員"},{"start":743.453,"end":771.968,"text":"確實這是當時我們在決定COVID-19的疫苗要國際採購以及國內發展的時候就公開徵求國內所有的生醫產是這疫苗製造者能夠進來所以有國光 有聯亞還有高端有四家但是有一家後來安特羅他不願意進來所以有三家所以政府是全面的來照顧臺灣的生醫產業鼓勵他們好好做研發成為世界一流的疫苗廠"},{"start":772.967,"end":774.108,"text":"做到這麼好的疫苗很好喔美國4千億"},{"start":794.45,"end":822.472,"text":"所以我覺得我們投入的並沒有很多但是國內的廠商真的這個算是厲害啦有自己的研發的能力而且產出很好的一個疫苗能夠我想接下來全世界應該會對於我們的疫苗是很認同的那當然我們看到那個賴副總統也提到說我們高端的合約要這個公布那我剛剛也再請部長再說一次就是高端下午的公布是說"},{"start":823.812,"end":851.225,"text":"他們即將要召開董事會來決定是否同意跟什麼時候要公開所以這個部分我們還是要尊重高端這邊因為我們畢竟也是雙方的一個合約我們不能強迫說他一定要公開但是我們看到國內的情勢當然如果能公開我們一起讓這個訊息能夠公開透明讓高端也不要每次都變成大家的箭靶"},{"start":852.346,"end":853.286,"text":"以一個上市公司來講他們開這個董事會大概要花多長的時間與他們一起"},{"start":874.392,"end":889.197,"text":"我印象中是說董事會召開前的一個禮拜要通知要說明然後他們來開董事會那像這一件事情的話我們很高興看到高端願意這樣來做了"},{"start":890.037,"end":905.492,"text":"院長最後一點時間因為最近疫情好像又再起所以整個又快要春節了又要選舉所以很多人來來往往的我們是不是要請院長這邊再宣導一次就是要趕快鼓勵大家再打疫苗"},{"start":906.703,"end":907.224,"text":"謝謝 謝謝院長 辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"149088","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149088","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee68976bf57f42bb63819826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50f8901a0837cb9f375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李德維","委員發言時間":"15:02:17 - 15:18:20","影片長度":"00:16:03","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":963,"end_time":"2024-01-09T15:18:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T15:02:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":201,"blocks":[["李委員德維：（15時2分）謝謝游院長，麻煩請行政院陳院長。"],["主席：陳院長，請。"],["陳院長建仁：李委員午安。"],["李委員德維：陳院長，請問高端這個案子是不是中國介選？"],["陳院長建仁：高端？"],["李委員德維：有沒有中國介選？"],["陳院長建仁：我想高端有沒有中國介選是當然沒有，這跟中國沒有關係，但是高端的疫苗確實有跟中國的疫苗作比較。"],["李委員德維：請教一下，在野黨包含本席在內，有誰在這邊提出來，要求買中國的國藥跟科興的疫苗，你可以講出來嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這個人數還不少，王定宇委員曾經有公布一個數據，但是我是尊重我們大院的委員……"],["李委員德維：是，人數還不少的話，你就隨便說一個嘛！沒關係。"],["陳院長建仁：我在這裡就不公開說明了。"],["李委員德維：沒關係，你就隨便說一個。"],["陳院長建仁：大院委員我不會說，但是最起碼有一個人我可以說，就是馬英九前總統就有說。"],["李委員德維：我想請教，執政黨的議員說，BNT是中國分裝的，在中國上海分裝的，有沒有這回事？您當時有沒有看到？"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有看到。"],["李委員德維：沒有看到，沒關係，所以在野黨的你都看得到，執政黨的你看不到。請教一下，高端跟美國國衛院有相關的技術合作，是不是您牽的線？"],["陳院長建仁：這件事情實際上在高端整個……"],["李委員德維：是還是不是嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：我現在在回答你的問題嘛！"],["李委員德維：是。"],["陳院長建仁：實際上美國國家衛生研究院在疫情的這段期間，就找出了一段冠狀病毒的基因，他們把這個基因拿去做莫德納的疫苗，他們也希望臺灣能夠發展蛋白質次單元的疫苗。這個研究者，我認識他……"],["李委員德維：所以是你的好朋友？"],["陳院長建仁：他有來問我說，國內有沒有人願意？我覺得這是一個好事。"],["李委員德維：因為高端的副董事長有說，你講一句話、有力人士講一句話，比他們講10句還有用……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我想沒有這一回事，這是……"],["李委員德維：所以其實您就是高端跟美國國衛院相關的牽線者，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：這個是很重要的一件事情……"],["李委員德維：是。"],["陳院長建仁：當國家有需要發展一個好的疫苗，而這個疫苗也證明了是有效的時候，我們就應該……"],["李委員德維：沒關係，我沒有說你不好，我沒有說你不好，我沒有說你不好，但是重點來了……"],["陳院長建仁：我就要講是好啊！我這樣做是好啊！"],["李委員德維：沒關係，那都不重要，你講的不重要。","請教一下，在高端這一個案子裡面，您是關係人還是公正的第三方？"],["陳院長建仁：我當然是……"],["李委員德維：你今天在這邊幾乎就是高端的代言人……"],["陳院長建仁：不對！"],["李委員德維：高端的關係人啊！"],["陳院長建仁：不是！"],["李委員德維：因為你牽線的，不是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是因為這兩個人認識，所以我們跟他認識……"],["李委員德維：陳院長，所以你不是公正的第三方，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：我當然是公正的第三方，我為什麼不是公正的第三方？"],["李委員德維：你是哪裡公正的第三方？"],["陳院長建仁：我只是就這個好的genetic structure，建議他來找臺灣的學者，我沒有什麼……"],["李委員德維：今天高端的副董事長在受訪裡面講得非常地清楚……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有……"],["李委員德維：所以您不是公正的第三方……"],["陳院長建仁：我是公正的第三方……"],["李委員德維：好，沒關係！"],["陳院長建仁：而且你剛才講到的臨床試驗或者是動物實驗裡面，所有的數據都登在世界上一流的期刊，包括真實世界的資料……"],["李委員德維：陳院長，後來給EUA的免疫橋接基本上是由您來定的調，後來衛福部之所以第一階段、第二階段……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你講的完全錯誤……"],["李委員德維：沒關係，部長，你不用上來，部長，你不用上來……"],["陳院長建仁：好，沒有問題，我來跟你講……"],["李委員德維：因為這是專家，沒有問題……"],["陳院長建仁：EUA這件事情是全世界都在講的，世界衛生組織在COVID-19期間就講……"],["李委員德維：沒關係，院長，我想請教，最後……"],["陳院長建仁：任何有一點點基本常識的人就會做EUA、免疫橋接的做法。"],["李委員德維：院長，請教，最後500萬劑……"],["陳院長建仁：所以你剛才講的那個是完全不正確啦！"],["李委員德維：政府採購了500萬劑，然後報廢了將近170萬劑……"],["陳院長建仁：因為有人抹黑、謾罵，所以使得它沒有使用，這就是我剛才講的使得可以用的人沒有用……"],["李委員德維：院長，所以你是輕忽臺灣人的智商囉！有人抹黑，臺灣人就選擇不要打高端，是這個意思嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當然啊！那個時候……"],["李委員德維：你是看輕2,300萬臺灣人嗎？院長，我想請問，假如高端這麼好，為什麼後來連……"],["陳院長建仁：那個時候請問在野黨怎麼樣講？中共的附和者怎麼樣來講高端……"],["李委員德維：無感的疫苗，大家都不願意打呀！"],["陳院長建仁：因為他們擔心高端疫苗的效果比科興、比國藥好啦……"],["李委員德維：院長、院長、院長，請你暫停……"],["陳院長建仁：我們來看它的抗體價，我講抗體價給你聽……"],["李委員德維：游院長，我可以請他暫停嗎？我要講話。"],["陳院長建仁：好，你講。"],["李委員德維：陳院長……"],["陳院長建仁：你要講科學嗎？"],["李委員德維：我跟你講，高端的營收完全是靠民進黨政府衛福部的採購，你去看它的報表，因為它是上市公司，它的營收就是靠政府給它採購新冠疫苗跟這一次代理韓國的流感疫苗，你去看它的財報……"],["陳院長建仁：我不贊成你的意見。"],["李委員德維：你不用贊成，這是事實……"],["陳院長建仁：這不是事實……"],["李委員德維：這不是假訊息……"],["陳院長建仁：這是錯誤的講法……"],["李委員德維：好，沒有關係，重點是……"],["陳院長建仁：高端發展的腸病毒疫苗已經得到了藥證，所以……"],["李委員德維：這個所謂的疫苗國家隊最後是空歡喜一場，虎頭蛇尾……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有虎頭蛇尾，而且是好疫苗……"],["李委員德維：浪費人民的血汗錢，最後失敗收場！對不對？所以……"],["陳院長建仁：最好的疫苗。"],["李委員德維：院長，你還要講最好的疫苗……"],["陳院長建仁：當然是，這個事實擺在眼前嘛！"],["李委員德維：然後什麼都是民進黨、執政黨對，都是人民的錯，在野黨的錯、抹黑，所以民眾不願意打高端，這就是你的結論……"],["陳院長建仁：對，我的結論是確實有人抹黑高端……"],["李委員德維：所以我才說你也不用牽拖這麼多防疫的人員，將帥無能，累死三軍！哪三軍？我跟你說，就是辛苦的防疫人員跟我們2,300萬的同胞要排隊買口罩、排隊打疫苗、排隊買快篩，這就是！"],["陳院長建仁：高端疫苗300萬劑拯救了將近百萬的人口……"],["李委員德維：好，沒關係……"],["陳院長建仁：結果你抹煞它，說它沒有效果，而且全世界都說它是一個好疫苗……"],["李委員德維：院長，好，謝謝，我們換題目……"],["陳院長建仁：所以你剛才講的是完全不科學、沒有理性依據的說法。"],["李委員德維：院長，請教一下，對於廢死，你的態度是怎麼樣？"],["陳院長建仁：我是天主教徒，我當然是贊成廢死啊！"],["李委員德維：贊成廢死，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：我贊成。"],["李委員德維：那請問現在民進黨、執政黨，蔡部長，你也不用來，謝謝！蔡總統8年任內執行了死刑在2018跟2020，現在還有38名死囚在獄中，其中有3名是殺警而被逮捕。請問一下，為什麼不執行？這難道不是今天公祭，明天忘記嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不是，我想死刑是不是要執行有一套規則在進行，這一套規則，你沒有要讓法務部部長來說明，那我就幫他說明……"],["李委員德維：所以包含你在內，蔡英文總統、賴清德主席，基本上都是主張廢死……"],["陳院長建仁：所以按照我們這個死刑執行的規則，這些人有些人都還在上訴過程當中。所以委員，人命關天，人命關天，人命關天……"],["李委員德維：院長，這個沒有在上訴的啦！三審定讞啦！你是公衛的專家，不是司法的專家啦！"],["陳院長建仁：人命關天，有一定的死刑執行的規則，你現在不讓法務部部長上來講，就是因為你們的講法是不正確的嘛！不符合規則當然不能執行。"],["李委員德維：院長，三審定讞你有沒有聽過？"],["陳院長建仁：三審定讞當然有聽過，但是可不可以有上訴？可不可以再重新審理案子？可不可以聲請大法官釋憲？當然可以啊！"],["李委員德維：所以你們現在就不斷地在幫加害人找出路嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這一回事，這我完全不同意。"],["李委員德維：三審定讞，你現在在幫所謂的加害人找出路，真的是夠了！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你現在講的就是很有限的，你忘了所有的死刑執行的規則，你剛才講的，你根本剝奪了他們在大法官請求釋憲這樣的一個權利啊！"],["李委員德維：院長，請教一下賴皮寮跟五月天的事情，請問一下，您的女公子的房子有沒有國安特勤去守護？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["李委員德維：或者警察有沒有去站崗？您女公子的房子，有還是沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["李委員德維：沒有，好，那請問你贊不贊成國安特勤去站賴清德主席、賴清德副總統兒子在萬里的賴皮寮？你贊不贊成？"],["陳院長建仁：國安有國安的作法，這個要由國安特勤的人來做決定。"],["李委員德維：要由國安的人來決定，所以你行政院長不用決定？"],["陳院長建仁：我跟你報告，在我在選舉的過程當中，確實是有比較高階這樣國安特勤的保護啦！"],["李委員德維：是，但是我要提醒您，萬里所謂賴清德副總統老家的產權是他的兒子的，不是他的，你贊成讓國安特勤或者警察去站你女公子的房子、房地產嗎？你贊不贊成、你會不會這麼做？"],["陳院長建仁：我當然不會啊！"],["李委員德維：你不會，那賴清德會。"],["陳院長建仁：我講說國安特勤有國安特勤的作法。"],["李委員德維：這樣子就是用特權在霸凌國安特勤。"],["陳院長建仁：這不是特權啦！你可以有、可以沒有的話就不是特權。"],["李委員德維：本席是擔任憲兵，要是我被派在那邊守他兒子的房子，我會覺得很悲哀啊！我會覺得很淒慘！我當一個憲兵是來報效國家的，不是來替我們的特權守房子，假如他是副總統、他是行政院長，我死都甘願。"],["陳院長建仁：好，那我跟委員做個報告，當我是副總統的時候，我到哪裡，特勤人員一定會到那一個地方去守護，保護我的安全。所以如果今天有一個地方我會經常去訪問的時候……"],["李委員德維：本席過去是憲兵，本席瞭解。"],["陳院長建仁：當然就需要有特勤的保護，賴副總統因為也常常去到他萬里的老家，所以那個地方……"],["李委員德維：他真的不常去。"],["陳院長建仁：所以才會有這個特勤的保護，我想每一個人不一樣，所以你問我我的情況，我的……"],["李委員德維：沒關係，院長，請教一下五月天的問題，我們國安的官員在簡報裡面跟CNN說，五月天被要求表明自己的政治立場，而且這個情報是基於臺灣在中國蒐集的情報，調查可能跟1月的總統大選有關。這件事情您知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我知道。"],["李委員德維：好，請稍等。12月28日陸委會就說查證中了，這邊法務部蔡部長、檢察總長邢泰釗說什麼？這種全國性重大的假訊息要立刻澄清，迅速下架，溯源追查主嫌。陸委會12月28日就說要查，現在有結果嗎？有沒有？我們的調查局長說48小時就可以檢測深偽的影片是不是偽造，時間不夠，所以我直接請問羅致政委員相關的訊息，不管是深偽或不是深偽，符不符合全國重大假訊息？應不應該立即澄清，迅速下架，溯源追查主嫌？院長，你認為應不應該？"],["陳院長建仁：當然應該啊！也正在做了。"],["李委員德維：結果呢？"],["陳院長建仁：正在做了。"],["李委員德維：結果呢？調查局有相關的東西……"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才就講過，深偽技術現在進步得很厲害。"],["李委員德維：院長，不能對你有利的就選擇公布或不公布……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這回事！"],["李委員德維：對執政黨立委不利的就選擇公布或不公布。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這回事！"],["李委員德維：所以當時行政院副院長的訊息很快就澄清了。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這回事！"],["李委員德維：我們調查局自己也說48小時。"],["陳院長建仁：調查的方法我剛才就講過，深偽偽造的技術現在日益進步當中，當時鄭文燦副院長的那個案子跟這個案子是不一樣的，不可……"],["李委員德維：院長，這是本席最後一次質詢你，你原本是個老實人……"],["陳院長建仁：我是老實，所以我現在講的就是對的事情。"],["李委員德維：進入政治圈真的被帶壞了。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這一回事。"],["李委員德維：只要講「中國介選」四個字一切都結束了，不是這樣嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這一回事……"],["李委員德維：賴副總統在第一時間就為羅委員說這是中國介選的深偽影片。"],["蔡部長清祥：一切都還在偵查中，跟委員報告，我們檢調都是秉著公平公正的態度來處理。"],["李委員德維：請教這符不符合全國重大假訊息，應不應該立即澄清，迅速下架，溯源追查主嫌？"],["蔡部長清祥：現在已經在做了。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["李委員德維：結果呢？"],["陳院長建仁：現在正在做，我剛才……"],["李委員德維：答案呢？1月13日馬上就要投票了……"],["陳院長建仁：答案就是因為整個偵查的過程需要很謹慎、很仔細、很小心。"],["李委員德維：現在是執政黨的參選人、副總統就說是中國介選嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：就是因為深偽東西的辨識是需要時間的。"],["李委員德維：需要時間？院長，你看清楚調查局長王俊力說48小時！48小時！"],["陳院長建仁：還要溯源啊！"],["李委員德維：你至少要先公布這是不是深偽嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：如果公布了以後影響偵查的程序呢？所以你現在講的都是片段的事情。"],["李委員德維：院長，你真的學壞了。"],["陳院長建仁：完全沒有，我講的就是科學，我講的就是正確的程序，最重要的就是要真實的事情，真相……"],["李委員德維：最後15秒鐘，希望你不要學會抹紅抹黑的技能。"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有抹紅抹黑。"],["李委員德維：千萬不可以這樣子。"],["陳院長建仁：中國介選確有其事。"],["李委員德維：因為你要有你的歷史定位。"],["陳院長建仁：中國介選的確有其事。"],["李委員德維：絕對不應該這樣，所以你一再用所謂的中國介選真的太好笑！"],["陳院長建仁：本來就是啊！"],["主席：接下來請吳委員玉琴質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇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謝謝游院長麻煩請行政院陳院長陳院長請"},{"start":42.171,"end":68.464,"text":"陳院長請問高端這個案子是不是中國借選有沒有中國借選我想高端有沒有中國借選當然沒有這跟中國沒有關係但是高端的疫苗確實有跟中國的疫苗來做比較在野黨包含本席在內有誰在這邊提出來要求買中國的國藥跟科興的疫苗你可以講出來嗎"},{"start":69.724,"end":70.225,"text":"執政黨議員說EMT是中國分莊"},{"start":94.699,"end":96.059,"text":"實際上在美國國家衛生研究院"},{"start":124.121,"end":128.715,"text":"他在疫情的這一段期間他就有找出來了一段"},{"start":129.452,"end":133.453,"text":"因為高端的副董事長有說你講一句話有利人士講一句話比他們講10句還有用"},{"start":157.699,"end":172.617,"text":"所以其實您就是高端跟美國衛院相關的牽線者對不對這個是很重要的一件事情當國家有需要發展一個好的疫苗這個疫苗也證明了是有效的時候我們就應該我們要說你不好"},{"start":174.699,"end":178.065,"text":"在高端這個案子裡面您是關係人還是公正的第三方?"},{"start":189.625,"end":207.774,"text":"你今天在這邊幾乎就是高端的代言人高端的關心人啊因為你牽線的嘛不是嗎我是因為這兩個人認識所以你不是公正的第三方對不對我當然是公正的第三方我為什麼不是公正的第三方"},{"start":208.414,"end":234.273,"text":"我只是把這個好的這個genetic structure去建議他來找台灣的學者我沒有什麼是高端的副董事長在受訪裡面講得非常的清楚嘛沒有所以您不是公正的第三方我是公正的第三方而且你剛才講到的臨床試驗裡面或者是動物實驗所有的數據都登在世界上的一流的期刊"},{"start":235.073,"end":246.479,"text":"後來給EUA的免疫橋接是基本上由您來定的調碼後來衛福部只可以委員你講的完全錯誤"},{"start":249.981,"end":273.903,"text":"部長你不要上來因為這是標端這是專家沒有問題EUA這一件事情是全世界都在講的世界衛生組織在COVID-19以前就講任何有一點點基本常識的人就會做EUA這樣的做這個美意橋接的做法所以你剛才講的那個是完全不正確"},{"start":276.792,"end":299.631,"text":"然後報廢了將近170萬劑因為有人抹黑嘛謾罵所以使得他沒有使用啊這就是我剛才講的使得可以用的人沒有用所以院長你是輕忽台灣人的智商囉有人抹黑台灣人就選擇不要打高端是這個意思嗎你是看清2300萬台灣人嗎那個時候請問那個時候請問這一個在野黨怎麼樣講中共的附和者怎麼樣來講高端"},{"start":304.835,"end":314.779,"text":"因為他們擔心高端疫苗的效果比科興 比國藥好啦那我們來看他的抗體價嘛我講抗體價給你我可以請他暫停嗎我要講話好你講來 院長"},{"start":323.126,"end":344.835,"text":"你要講科學嗎我跟你講高端的營收完全是靠民進黨政府衛福部的採購你去看他的報表因為他是上市公司他的營收又是靠政府給他採購新冠疫苗跟這一次代理韓國的流感疫苗"},{"start":346.789,"end":357.78,"text":"你去看他的財報你不用贊成這是事實這不是假訊息好沒有關係重點是這一個所謂的疫苗國家隊最後是空歡喜一場虎頭蛇尾啊夠廢人民的血汗錢最後失敗收場"},{"start":367.91,"end":383.792,"text":"最好的疫苗對不對所以來院長你還要講最好的疫苗然後什麼都是民進黨執政黨對都是人民的錯在野黨的錯抹黑所以民眾不願意打高端這就是你的結論"},{"start":384.873,"end":403.743,"text":"所以我才說你也不用牽扯這麼多防疫人員降帥無能累死三軍哪三軍我跟你說就是辛苦的防疫人員跟我們2300萬的同胞要排隊買口罩排隊打疫苗排隊買快篩"},{"start":407.925,"end":429.606,"text":"高端疫苗300萬劑拯救了相近百萬的人口結果你抹煞他說他沒有效果而且全世界都說他是一個好疫苗所以你剛才講的是完全不科學沒有理性依據的說法院長請教一下Face你的態度是怎麼樣"},{"start":431.257,"end":459.531,"text":"我是天主教徒我當然是贊成廢死啊贊成廢死對不對那請問現在民進黨執政黨來蔡部長你也不用來謝謝蔡總統8年任內執行了死刑2018跟2020現在還有38名的死囚在獄中其中3名有3名是殺警而被逮捕請問一下為什麼不執行"},{"start":461.212,"end":475.822,"text":"這難道不是今天公祭明天忘記嗎不是我想此行是不是要執行有一套規則在進行那這一套規則你沒有要讓保護部部長來說明所以按照這個規則這些人"},{"start":483.288,"end":495.294,"text":"按照我們的這個死刑執行的規則這些人 有些人都還在上訴過程當中所以委員 人命關天 人命關天 人命關天 人命關天有一定的死刑執行的規則你現在不讓法務部部長上來講"},{"start":505.092,"end":522.843,"text":"這就是因為你們覺得你們的講法是不正確的嘛不符合規則當然不能執行三審定讞你有沒有聽過三審定讞當然有聽過但是可以不可以有上訴可以不可以再重新審理案子可以不可以申請大法官釋憲當然可以啊幫加害人"},{"start":523.965,"end":551.786,"text":"找出路嗎沒有這回事這我完全不同意三審定讞你現在在幫所謂的加害人找出路委員你現在講的就是就是很有限的你忘了所有的死刑執行的這個規則那你現在剛才講的你根本剝奪了他們在大法官請求釋憲的這樣的一個權利啊來院長請教一下"},{"start":554.812,"end":579.005,"text":"這個賴皮寮跟五月天的事情請問一下您的女公子的房子有沒有國安特勤去守護沒有啊或者警察有沒有去站崗有還是沒有女公子的房子有還是沒有沒有沒有好那請問你贊不贊成國安特勤去站"},{"start":581.087,"end":606.55,"text":"賴清德主席賴清德副總統兒子在萬里的賴皮寮你贊不贊成這國安有國安的這個做法那這個要由國安特勤的人來做決定要由國安的人來決定所以你行政院長不用決定在我在選舉的過程當中確實是有比較高階的這樣的一個國安特勤的保護"},{"start":607.307,"end":626.04,"text":"是但是我要提醒你萬里所謂賴清德副總統的老家他的產權是他的兒子不是他你贊成讓國安特勤或者警察去佔你女公子的房子房地產嗎你贊不贊成你會不會這麼做"},{"start":629.36,"end":634.841,"text":"本席是擔任憲兵的要是我被派在那邊守他兒子的房子我會覺得很悲哀啊我會覺得很淒慘"},{"start":654.79,"end":661.497,"text":"我當一個憲兵是來報效國家的不是來替我們的特權守房子"},{"start":662.438,"end":688.92,"text":"假如他是副總統他是行政院長我死都甘願好那我跟委員做個報告啦當我是副總統的時候我到哪裡那特勤人員一定會到那一個地方去守護保護我的安全所以如果今天我有一個地方我會經常去訪問的時候那我當然就需要有特勤的保護嘛"},{"start":690.28,"end":703.025,"text":"那賴副總統因為也常常去到他萬里的老家所以那個地方副總統真的不常去所以才會有這個特性保護我想每一個人不一樣所以你問我說我的情況"},{"start":705.746,"end":727.597,"text":"我們國安的官員在簡報裡面說跟CNN說五月天被要求表明自己的政治立場而且這個情報是基於台灣在中國收集的情報調查可能跟一月的總統大選有關這件事情您知道嗎我知道好請稍等"},{"start":729.282,"end":754.882,"text":"12月28陸委會就說查證中了來這邊法務部我們蔡部長我們檢查總長邢太昭說什麼這種全國性重大的假信息要立刻澄清迅速下架溯源追查主嫌陸委會12月28就說要查現在有結果嗎有沒有"},{"start":757.17,"end":775.249,"text":"來 我們的調查局長說48小時就可以檢測升委的影片是不是偽造我們這時間不夠 所以我就直接講請問羅智政委員相關的這種不管是升委或者不是升委"},{"start":776.861,"end":787.387,"text":"復不復合全國重大假訊息應不應該立即澄清 迅速下架 溯源追查主嫌 院長你認為應不應該當然應該啊那結果呢"},{"start":793.131,"end":811.747,"text":"結果呢所以調查局有相關的東西來來來 院長不能對你有利的就選擇公布或不公布對執政黨立委不利的就選擇公布或不公布所以當時行政院副院長的"},{"start":812.768,"end":813.789,"text":"你原本是個老實人啊"},{"start":836.344,"end":840.409,"text":"進入政治圈真的被帶壞是否是中國屆選一切都結束不是這樣嗎賴副總統在第一時間就為我們羅委員說這是中國屆選的身為影片"},{"start":860.987,"end":861.807,"text":"現在已經在做了"},{"start":885.206,"end":891.392,"text":"答案呢馬上1月13號投票啦你執政黨的參選人副總統就說是中國界選嘛需要時間 院長你看清楚調查局長王俊麗說48小時48小時"},{"start":911.377,"end":922.396,"text":"那你至少要先公布這事實不是身為嘛那你如果你公布了以後影響了偵查的這個程序呢所以你現在講的都是片段的事情"},{"start":923.632,"end":934.482,"text":"我完全沒有 我講的就是科學嘛 我講的就是正確的程序最重要的就是要真實的事情 真下我沒有抹紅抹黑因為你要有你的歷史定位你絕對"},{"start":950.836,"end":956.665,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"149087","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149087","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee689e52f1487956ab6a8826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50010d55363ceb03ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"14:46:20 - 15:02:08","影片長度":"00:15:48","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":948,"end_time":"2024-01-09T15:02:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T14:46:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":146,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（14時46分）謝謝院長，有請我們行政院陳建仁陳院長。"],["主席：陳院長，請。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有我們衛福部的薛部長。"],["陳院長建仁：莊委員午安。"],["莊委員瑞雄：院長午安。今天這個議題、關於今天這整個臨時會，我有一個很大的感慨，其實我們在相同的地方，也就是在院會針對整個疫苗專案報告和指定議題的報告就有3次，我相信薛部長最清楚，在衛環委員會你們就有6次……"],["薛部長瑞元：十幾次。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我說6次是指調閱小組。在財政委員會的疫苗專報是2次，在經濟委員會是1次，在衛環委員會關於疫苗的專報就有12次，所以我真的很感慨！2022年11月26日九合一大選到現在一年多，都沒有人要談這個，現在距離選舉只剩四、五天才排這個專案報告，這很明顯完全就是一個政治上的攻防。但是本席認為這個議題讓院長來講還是最適合，因為院長畢竟是公衛出身。","其實臺灣經過這一場百年大疫，全體國人同胞由政府部門帶領，上下共同團結在抗疫，我相信大家都盡心盡力了。到了後疫情時代，今天排這一場，我還特別去問了媒體朋友：你聽到現在，感覺怎麼樣？答案就是「冷飯熱炒」4個字，炒得起來、炒不起來不知道。但是我要來就教院長的就是，我的好朋友邱顯智今天在質詢的時候有問到你一個問題：高端疫苗到底有沒有決標的公告？我聽了以後覺得院長必須要再澄清，因為我擔心外面會有所誤解。按照整個政府採購法的規定，涉及機密採購的部分倒未必會有一定要決標的問題，我很擔心的就是，其他的疫苗到底有沒有決標上的公告？還有，早上院長這樣回答是口誤，還是幕僚提供的資訊有錯誤的地方？是不是請薛部長對這個地方再做一個澄清好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝委員。這個部分應該更精確來講，開標、決標都是按照程序來，決標之後的話，本來我們就是要把資料上傳到工程會的這個網站。但是根據政府採購法第六十一條和它的施行細則第八十四條，如果是涉及商業機密的這種機密採購的話，我們可以不公告，機關可以不公告，但是仍然必須要將未刊登的決標資料傳到工程會的資料庫裡面去。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這麼細的東西，很顯然啦！院長早上的回答我很擔心……"],["陳院長建仁：我有講得比較簡單。"],["莊委員瑞雄：造成一個誤會，藉這個機會，也讓院長跟部長來做一個澄清。其實我一直在想說這個議題之所以會吵這麼久，經過這麼長的時間沉寂了，總統大選剩下幾天要投票了，我看整個網路上一直在講，這個有理都已經講不清了。本席本身學法，大家一直在談整個高端疫苗的契約要封存30年，網路上都在講這個，我聽到整個頭都一個頭兩個大你知道嗎？你也不曉得該怎麼樣去講說在臺灣這樣的一個假訊息蔓延以後，積非到最後會成是，所以部長，我要請教你的是，你是不是可以在這個地方再重新說明一次，衛福部你們所謂的保存重要公文，大家知道是30年，但是高端這一個契約你們到底是多久以後才能讓外界知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：根據雙方的保密協定，契約裡面的保密協定的話是5年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：5年？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，就是最後交貨之後5年我們就可以解密，但是這一個所謂30年是我們公文必須要保存30年，隨時以備不時之需可以來調閱。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以高端採購這樣的一個契約，說這個契約30年要封存是一個假訊息？"],["陳院長建仁：這是錯假消息。"],["莊委員瑞雄：如果是其他疫苗的採購，你說AZ不用保密，還是說Novavax不用保密，BNT不用保密，只有高端要保密，這有鬼囉！這我看來就有鬼囉！但是如果其他……我想請教BNT是幾年？"],["薛部長瑞元：BNT的話是10年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：保密10年？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，保密10年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：Novavax是幾年？"],["薛部長瑞元：Novavax的話是7年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：7年，AZ是5年？"],["薛部長瑞元：5年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：嘿！整個網路這樣跟你說，說沒有喔！只有高端要這樣保密、要掩蓋30年，聽到頭殼都會大啦！"],["陳院長建仁：這是錯假的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以這樣來做一個澄清，我覺得是好事。你看喔！今天在野黨所提出來的一個問題，我反而也在這個地方想再問一次，就是當初整個緊急授權EUA，他現在跟你說有那麼多的審查委員是不記名的，在我來看，以現在來看當年的話，如果說我是那個委員的話，我也會怕耶！如果緊急授權我投反對，國內需要疫苗，那我壓力有多大，等一下說我在阻擋疫苗；我如果投贊成，人家又會罵我說是不是在圖利財團，這個我倒覺得也很麻煩，在當時的時空背景之下，這一些委員你說你們當初採取的是不記名，到底部長是在考量什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：如同剛剛委員所提到的，因為現在網路非常的發達，所以如果把委員的姓名揭露的話，那的確會造成一些困擾，但是我們所有的會議資料，我們都已經公開，只是委員用ABC的代號去取代而已。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以當初你們採不記名，也有他特殊的考量這些時空因素存在啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要請法務部長蔡部長也上來一下，衛福部部長請回。我一直在想說整個高端裡面，我相信很多在野黨的朋友會拿出來這樣去講說是不是有圖利，或者說這個過程裡面有沒有牽扯到誰貪瀆，我要請問部長的是，我們現在查高端，大家去跟你們檢舉，檢方就馬上去查辦，現在有幾件是不起訴的？"],["蔡部長清祥：63件，都已經查清楚了，沒有不法的情事。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟部長報告，今天這個案子如果讓你重新再回到你以前檢察官的一個專業的話，你也是「頭殼𢯾咧燒」啦！今天這個也來檢舉，那個也來檢舉，我今天告蔡英文，明天我告蘇貞昌，再來我告陳時中、告陳建仁院長、告薛瑞元部長，大家如果這樣搞，不論是報紙看到的，還是憑感覺的，你要怎麼辦？"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員報告，後來在今年1月的時候，還有人提出3件，這3件目前還在偵辦當中，所以雖然是簽結，但是簽結是沒有確定力的，你如果懷疑，還有證據有涉嫌犯罪，還可以再拿出來。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然有新事證的話，司法機關本來就是毋枉毋縱，這個案子就現在來看，我反而會認為國人對於有任何貪瀆的疑慮，他本來就是希望我們司法機關來查辦，可是碰到選舉的時候再來談這種案件，我相信大多數的民眾也會認為又來了，因為選舉又來了，這個大家看了也都會很討厭，讓整個司法機關整天在那邊忙得要命。但是我在這個地方也要求，部長，如果有任何新事證的話，我相信大家在國會裡面，高端幾乎是被在野黨打臭掉了，但是你說這個案到最後是不是有任何人涉案，或者是高端的高層，我要求我們司法機關也必須要毋枉毋縱。"],["蔡部長清祥：當然，一定會的，依法辦事嘛！如果有事實、有證據來證明，我們當然依法處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦！"],["蔡部長清祥：濫訴的情形不是只有高端而已，很多啦！動不動就告官員瀆職、圖利，我們檢察官大概要花很多時間在處理這些案子。"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒辦法，臺灣是一個高度民主的社會，我記得我以前在當臺北市議員的時候，我那時候看李登輝老總統都已經是卸任了，在監察院前面那邊站著兩個多死忠的，你知道嗎？每天站在那邊喊槍斃李登輝、槍斃李登輝，我從那邊過去，我每天和他們打招呼，有夠厲害！有時候意識形態，或者他選擇他自己所相信的，這個到最後怎麼解決？還是真的不得不由司法啦。所以這部分我也要求毋枉毋縱。","蔡部長請回，我繼續要請教院長的是，今天既然大家是因為高端在開臨時會，大家一直在講，我記得當初在批評高端的時候，當初也講高端好像符水，甚至說什麼高端打下去都無效，甚至於講謀財害命，我要在這個地方特別感謝院長，因為前幾天我自己的父親過世，院長也親自到我家裡面，我的父親今年90歲，我記得當初疫情來的時候，大家都打AZ，有的人打下去之後發燒了。"],["陳院長建仁：對，沒有錯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：有的人打下去都很難受，我爸爸當時第一劑也是打AZ，你還叫他打第二劑，再怎麼樣他都不去打。"],["陳院長建仁：對，沒錯，有副作用。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟他說要打疫苗，他不要，不要就是不要，我非常感謝的是，後來總統還有院長您，還有我們部會首長帶頭施打，我也不知道那個打了之後有沒有效果，我也都不知道，我的想法是陳建仁大仁哥，大家都叫你大仁哥，你有公衛背景，我們信賴你，看你打了，因此我帶我爸爸去打，我爸爸因為看你打了，因此才去打，我跟爸爸說相信陳建仁就對了。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還好度過了，所以我要特別來感謝。可是我現在回想起來，我必須要提到在野黨朋友的一個質疑，你說高端以現在來看，雖然疫情過去了，大家今天在問高端到底好或不好？到底有沒有國際認證？這部分我要請教院長。"],["陳院長建仁：好，這個部分有三點可以向委員報告，第一個就是高端曾經在巴拉圭跟泰國做過3期的臨床試驗，而且在巴拉圭也取得了EUA，另外世界衛生組織也幫高端去做臨床3期的研究，是在世界上三個國家來進行，後來世界衛生組織也跟高端有合約，用它的技轉來讓其他的國家可以使用高端的技術，更重要的就是最近在1月份的時候，很有名的國際期刊叫做新興傳染病的期刊，它就刊登了我們臺灣的真實世界數據，發現高端的效果和莫德納以及BNT是一樣的，比AZ還好，當然，比起科興、國藥更好，所以高端確實是個很好的、有國際認證的好疫苗。很可惜在當時，因為大家不斷地抹黑，像有些怕副作用的人，他不想去打，反而沒有機會來打高端，這樣的抹黑反而造成了可以打高端的人就放棄了高端，這就是很多老人家沒有預防接種的理由嘛！這樣子的話，就喪失了這個預防、打高端的機會的話，說老實話，我們是相當地不捨，這樣會使得這些老人家容易死於COVID-19，而事實也顯示，臺灣的老人家打COVID-19的比較少，我們本來當時的想法，高端如果副作用比較小，又有這麼好的效果，就應該讓怕副作用的人來接種，可是沒有，因為抹黑得太厲害，所以我覺得某一些人士或者是境外勢力的唱和者這樣隨便抹黑，實際上造成臺灣老人家不願意打高端度苗，這也是讓我很心痛的事情。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以很顯然，經過科學認證它不是符水，其實我們也希望國人同胞不要口水，來尊重這樣的科學，但是我在這個地方要特別提醒院長，還有我們衛福部，針對疫苗的不良反應，我相信這一些也有很多委員辦公室收到民眾的陳情，也就是施打疫苗以後不適狀況的這些申請案件。因為我國疫苗接種受害的救濟申請的門檻算是最低的，所以會特別多，我們也希望在整個嚴謹的程序之下、在科學的認證之下，這個部分行政部門可以加快腳步，讓民眾不會覺得疫情過去了，我忍受這麼多的痛苦……"],["陳院長建仁：而且八千多件已經處理了六千多件了，剩下一千多件。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以這個部分請行政院再加油。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。","接下來請李委員德維質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"me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院會啊針對整個疫苗專案報告跟指定議題的報告就有三次三次因為未完委員會啊這個我相信薛部長你也最清楚了你們就有六次這財政委員會啊六次是釣魚小組這財政委員會呢 疫苗的專報兩次"},{"start":57.832,"end":84.663,"text":"經濟委員會緊蓋國安委員會關於疫苗的一個專報就12次所以我很感激這個在2022年11月26號這個九合一的一個大選到現在2月沒有人要說這個選舉剩4、5天這個很明顯就完全就是一個政治上的一個攻防"},{"start":85.629,"end":88.692,"text":"但是本席還是認為說這個議題還是讓院長來講還是最適合因為院長畢竟是公衛出身其實在臺灣經過這一場百年大議"},{"start":100.27,"end":127.193,"text":"那大家全體上下國人同胞有政府部門帶領那大家共同在團結在抗議我相信大家都盡心盡力的到了這個整個後疫情時代今天排這一場我還特別去問了媒體的朋友說你聽到現在你會覺得怎麼樣四個字冷飯熱炒炒得起來炒不起來不知道但是我要來救教院長就是說"},{"start":129.172,"end":157.886,"text":"我的好朋友啊秋選之間在質詢的時候有問到你一個問題就是說高端疫苗到底有沒有這個整個絕標的一個公告這樣的一個問題啊我聽了以後啊我會覺得院長必須要再澄清因為我擔心外面會有所誤解啊因為按照整個政府的一個採購法裡面啊涉及到啊整個機密採購的部分喔那個到未必會有一定要"},{"start":158.53,"end":158.85,"text":"謝謝委員這部分應該更精確來講"},{"start":188.991,"end":197.56,"text":"開標、決標這個都按照程序來決標之後的話本來我們就是要把資料上傳到這個工程會的這個網站"},{"start":199.81,"end":226.385,"text":"但是根據政府採購法第61條跟它的施行細則第84條如果涉及到商業機密的這種機密採購的話那我們可以不公告 機關可以不公告但是必須要將未刊登的這個絕標的資料傳到 仍然要傳到工程會的這個資料庫裡面去"},{"start":229.162,"end":255.351,"text":"這麼細的東西那很顯然院長早上的一個回答我很擔心造成一個誤會接這個機會也讓院長跟部長來做一個澄清那其實我一直在想說這個議題之所以會吵這麼久那經過這麼長的時間成績了總統大選剩下幾天要投票了我看整個網路上一直在講這個有理都已經講不清了本席本身學法"},{"start":256.465,"end":276.51,"text":"那大家一直在談到說整個高端這個疫苗啊什麼這個整個契約啊要封存30年我聽到這個網絡都在說這個我聽到整個台港一台舖都兩粒大你知道嗎你也不曉得該怎麼樣去講說在台灣這樣的一個假訊期這樣蔓延以後啊機非到最後會成事啊所以不對"},{"start":277.39,"end":278.95,"text":"根據雙方的保密協定7月裏面的保密協定是5年"},{"start":300.711,"end":302.532,"text":"所以高端採購這樣的一個契約說這個契約30年要封存是一個假訊息 錯的訊息所以"},{"start":327.435,"end":347.83,"text":"如果說其他的疫苗的一個採購 你說AZ人不用保密 或是NOVAX不用保密 BNT不用保密 只有高端來保密 這有鬼囉 這我看來就有鬼囉但是如果其他 我要請教的 BNT是幾年 BNT的話是10年"},{"start":348.732,"end":349.853,"text":"當初整個緊急授權EUA"},{"start":378.952,"end":399.31,"text":"他現在跟你說那些深渣的委員齁 那不記名在我來看 以現在來看當年的話如果說我是那個委員的話 我也會怕咧我若跟你投反對 緊急授權我跟你反對啊國內需要疫苗 我壓力比較大 等於說我在阻擋疫苗啊我若跟你投贊成 人家還會跟我說我是不是在圖利財團"},{"start":408.897,"end":418.912,"text":"這個我倒覺得反而也很麻煩在當時的一個時空背景之下那這一些委員 你說你們當初採取的不記名到底補定 到底再考量一下"},{"start":419.908,"end":440.02,"text":"如同剛剛委員所提到的因為現在網路非常的發達所以如果把委員的姓名揭露的話那的確會造成一些困擾但是我們所有的這個會議的資料我們都已經公開只是委員用ABC的代號去取代而已"},{"start":440.709,"end":466.234,"text":"所以說當初你們就是說才不記名也有他特殊的一個考量這一些時空因素存在啦我要請法務部長蔡部長也請上來一下就是說向法務部部長請回啦那我一直在想說整個高端裡面我相信很多在黨的朋友會拿出來這樣去講說是不是有圖利或者說這個過程裡面有沒有牽扯到誰貪圖"},{"start":470.061,"end":492.182,"text":"我請問部長就是說,我們現在查高端,大家去自己檢紀,我們檢方就馬上去做一個查辦,現在有幾件是不起訴的?63件,就已經都查清楚了,沒有不法的情勢我跟部長報告,今天你做這個案子,如果讓你重新再回到你以前的一個專業的話,你老闆你也不要再燒了"},{"start":495.502,"end":505.791,"text":"今天那個要檢舉啦我今天叫蔡英文啦明天叫我蘇貞昌啦再來叫我程時中啦我來叫程建仁院長我來叫薛瑞仁水部長大家要創創的、補助看到的還是憑感覺的你怎麼辦?跟委員報告齁阿伯今年一月的時候還有人提出三件所以這三件還要牧場辦中間啦所以"},{"start":523.078,"end":550.698,"text":"雖然是牽結啦但是牽結是沒有確定力的你如果說懷疑還有證據有涉嫌犯罪可以再提出來那當然有新事實新事證的話司法機關本來就是誤法誤王誤眾這個案子到現在來看的話我反而會認為說國人對有任何貪圖的一個疑慮的話他本來就是希望我們司法機關來做一個查辦可是呢"},{"start":552.085,"end":579.568,"text":"碰到選舉的時候再來談這種案件的話我相信大多數的民眾會認為說他再來啊 又因為選舉再來啊這個看了大家也都會很討厭讓我們兩個司法機關齁你整天在那裡沒人要死去啦沒人要死去啦但是我在這個地方也要求啦部長如果有任何新事證的話我相信大家在國會裡面啊碰到高端幾乎是被在野黨打的打臭掉啦但是呢"},{"start":581.581,"end":606.586,"text":"你說這個案﹖到最後是不是有任何人去涉案的話﹖或者高端的高層的話﹖我要求我們司法機關也必須要勿妄勿縱當然一定會的依法辦事嘛﹖如果有事實﹖有證據來證明﹖那我們當然依法處理濫訴的情形不是高端而已很少的動不動就告官員瀆職圖利"},{"start":608.732,"end":624.19,"text":"我們檢察官大概要花很多的時間都在處理這些案子沒辦法我懂台灣是一個高度的一個民主的一個社會民眾稍微我記得我以前在當台北市議員的時候"},{"start":625.816,"end":626.196,"text":"蔡部長請回我繼續要來請教院長就是說"},{"start":653.982,"end":682.484,"text":"今天既然是高端大家在做這個臨時會大家一直在講說我記得當初在批評高端的時候你看當初也講說這高端怎麼扶我出去甚至什麼高端跑下去都很不好甚至於講說磨柴害命在這個地方我要特別感謝院長因為我前幾天我自己的父親或是院長親自到我家裡面"},{"start":683.988,"end":711.494,"text":"我記得我當初我的父親今年90歲當初疫情來的時候大家都打AZ有的打下去發燒有的打下去都很艱難爸爸等到第1期也去打AZ你再叫他打第1期他安卓打他就不要去打對 沒錯有副作用那你去打疫苗他不要我就是都不要"},{"start":712.711,"end":738.531,"text":"我非常感謝就是說其實後來總統還有院長您還有我們部會的所長去帶頭我也不知道說那個主席好不好我也都不知道我的想法是說成見人大人都叫你大人哥你就有公衛背景我們信賴你你打蠟我剛才帶我老伯去我老伯英語這樣我看你在拍"},{"start":739.309,"end":740.61,"text":"這部份有三點可以向委員報告第一就是高端"},{"start":769.802,"end":795.008,"text":"曾經在巴拉圭跟泰國做過三期的臨床試驗而且在巴拉圭取得了EUA另外世界衛生組織也幫高端去做臨床三期的研究是在世界上三個國家來進行後來世界衛生組織也跟高端來"},{"start":797.282,"end":824.173,"text":"這一個有合約來用他的這個計轉來給其他的國家來可以使用高端的技術那更重要的就是最近一月份的時候很有名的國際期刊叫做新型傳染病的期刊他就刊登了我們臺灣的真實世界的數據發現高端的效果是和莫德納跟BNT是一樣的比AZ還好那當然比這個科興跟國藥更好"},{"start":824.949,"end":840.542,"text":"所以高端確實是一個很好的有國際認證的好的疫苗很可惜在當時因為大家不斷的抹黑像有些有副作用的人他不想去打反而沒有機會來打高端那這樣一個抹黑反而造成了可以打高端的人"},{"start":840.942,"end":840.962,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":870.982,"end":895.823,"text":"所以我覺得某一些人士或者是境外勢力的唱和者這樣的隨便抹黑實際上造成台灣老人家不願意打高端疫苗這也是讓我很心痛的事情所以很顯然這個經過科學認證它不是撫水我們也希望國人同胞不要口水來尊重這個科學"},{"start":896.991,"end":922.7,"text":"但是我在這個地方要特別提醒院長還有衛福部就是說針對疫苗的一個不良的反應我相信這一些也很多委員的辦公室也受到民眾的懲罰就施打疫苗以後不是的一個狀況這些申請的一個案件因為我國疫苗接種受害的一個救濟申請的門檻我們算最低所以會特別多我們也希望"},{"start":934.276,"end":940.662,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"149086","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149086","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee6899895c0b83a3fc809826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50caa74d82ca9087435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游毓蘭","委員發言時間":"14:30:35 - 14:46:07","影片長度":"00:15:32","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":932,"end_time":"2024-01-09T14:46:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T14:30:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":34,"blocks":[["游委員毓蘭：（14時30分）謝謝院長，有請行政院陳院長。"],["主席：陳院長，請。"],["陳院長建仁：游委員午安。"],["游委員毓蘭：院長午安。"],["陳院長建仁：午安。"],["游委員毓蘭：院長辛苦了！因為早上您一再強調說，因為契約有保密條款的要求，所以不能夠公開高端的採購合約。可不可以請你告訴我們這個保密條款的文字內容？因為保密條款本身的文字內容是不必保密的。"],["陳院長建仁：保密條款的文字內容等一下，我看一下。"],["游委員毓蘭：時間可以暫停一下，要不然請薛部長幫忙講一下好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["游委員毓蘭：保密條款的文字內容，請。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我先唸第一個：雙方同意訂定本保密合約為雙方遵循之依據。這是合約的起頭。然後是機密資料的部分：本合約所謂機密性資料計包括採購單價、原物料價格等商業採購相關訊息、取得方式，包括（不限於）口頭、文字、書寫、錄音等等。接下來還有：機密性資料取得之日期不論其為本合約簽署日之前或之後均屬之。"],["游委員毓蘭：OK，好。"],["陳院長建仁：在開始的時候就訂定這是一個保密……"],["游委員毓蘭：所以這個就是我們的保密條款嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：對，這是保密的。"],["游委員毓蘭：所以您是有依據的。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["游委員毓蘭：好，謝謝。請薛部長回座。","我不知道院長你有沒有看到最近蔡總統拍了一部小電影，還滿好看的？"],["陳院長建仁：有。"],["游委員毓蘭：有看了嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["游委員毓蘭：因為現在蔡總統不是只有在路上，蔡總統還在錄音帶上，所以我接下來要請教一下，其實法務部在去年年底就已經講了，說最高檢從去年12月11日到今年1月5日止，全權處理全國性重大假訊息案件，而且會指派主任檢察官跟檢察官來負責偵辦，針對影響選舉的假訊息，執法部門法務部、地檢署、調查局要立即澄清、迅速下架、溯源追查主嫌。我剛剛唸的都沒錯嘛？蔡部長已經上來了，沒錯嘛？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["游委員毓蘭：這是為了要避免中共介選啦！所以我剛才講說蔡總統的小電影叫做「在路上」，可是現在變成「在錄音帶上」啦！因為最近我們看到我們的同事羅致政委員被公布了各種不同的影音資料，有A片，也有影射可能是跟蔡總統的對話等等，我覺得茲事體大。不管是真是假，部長，這不是符合我剛剛唸的，你們一開始說的要有一個打擊假訊息的迅速偵辦中心的重要意旨嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["游委員毓蘭：沒錯吧！對不對？所以你就不可以說這是個人隱私、這是私德問題，這已經不是了！雖然我跟蔡總統不屬同一個黨派，但他是我的國家元首，我覺得當他被人家錄音，我現在還搞不清楚這個錄音帶內容的真假等等，可是因為裡面有一些內容我知道也是我們在外交及國防委員會常常聽到，比如說羅致政委員有時候也會談起的，但是我會擔心羅致政委員當過國防及外交委員會的召委，這會不會是一個國安的漏洞？我覺得法務部或最高檢都不可以等閒視之，不是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這一件事情當然是相當的重要，所以我今天早上已經講得很清楚了，這一件事情我們完全支持檢調單位積極查辦，並且很快的掌握相關報導，那語音檔的內容是不是有偷錄、深偽或涉及介選，都要由鑑識機關來進行相關的鑑識。這一件事情是相當的重要，我相信部長也有這樣的一個看法。"],["游委員毓蘭：對，我是建議絕對不可以像破唱盤一樣跳針說中共介選，用中共介選遮掩掉很多我們政府該作為而不作為，我們自己不認真辦案，這是我再怎麼樣都無法忍受的。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我覺得他們沒有不認真辦案，我是支持他們要儘快查明真相，好好的來偵辦這件事情。"],["游委員毓蘭：是，包括剛剛沒有出現的洪申翰委員最近也深陷這種風暴，我覺得對他們來講，他們也都很需要一個真相，如果這件事情對他們是謠言的話，要趕快查明，千萬不要像過去吳敦義的錄音帶風波，等到查出來之後，都說是假的時候，他都已經落選，都已經變成既定的現實了。"],["陳院長建仁：現在深偽的作法相當的多，五花八門，所以在鑑識的工作上我們也會積極來努力，那更重要的就是我們在打詐行動綱領1.5有購置一些儀器設備，能夠作更精準的鑑識，還有追查訊息來源，所以這部分我相信檢調單位還有刑事警察局也會來好好的偵辦。"],["游委員毓蘭：是的，剛剛院長講到重點，深偽的技術雖然不斷升高，可是道高一尺魔高一丈，我們希望現在是魔高一尺，道要高好幾丈才可以。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯，這就是我們努力的方向。"],["游委員毓蘭：所以一定要支持包括第一線的檢調警都要有足夠的工具。其實我剛剛秀給大家看的，你們去年年底說有一個專責小組，我看到裡面有一個主任檢察官，就是我們鑑識系的校友，他也是鑑識專家，但是不可以讓這群精兵去打一個沒有工具的仗，所以一定要請院長、部長支持第一線的員警，要讓有責任的人也要有權力，而不要因為有太多政治的考量，譬如現在因為選舉期間暫時不要辦。有的時候就是要神速，就是要很快的把這個事情，如果它是假訊息，馬上公布的話至少不會繼續擴大，否則，我覺得我的同事羅致政現在也一定很頭痛，因為一下子錄音帶，一下子A片，現在聽說又有20支高清的帶子，我覺得檢調應該要勇敢的負起責任。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們會加強來做，而且我要在這裡跟委員報告，我們鑑識的設備，基本上很多媒體都錯誤報導說我們打詐1.5行動綱領花了27億是去做裝潢，這完全是錯誤的，實際上我們就是精進儀器設備。然後像那個Linbay好油這些案子，還有一些黨工有1,000個帳號，我們都能夠查出來，所以我們絕對會積極來偵辦這件事情，查個水落石出，盡早讓真相能夠解凍。"],["游委員毓蘭：我們也要請院長跟部長承諾，因為我們現在聽到的是都已經查出那個A片不是深偽製造，但是現在因為偵查不公開，不對外公布，或者是因為當事人，那你既然要說那A片的當事人，那你就是直接影射羅致政就是當事人。我要跟部長、院長唸出一段，這是在網路間流傳的，我的同學傳給我，內容是高端合約要業者同意才能公布，立委的性愛光碟也要當事人同意才能公布，這個政府的公權力是睡死了嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想……"],["游委員毓蘭：高端是全民買單，立委是外交及國防委員會，包括趙天麟委員的那個小三風波也是一樣的，政府跟司法單位不可以明目張膽地去護短，這個我是完全同意的。"],["陳院長建仁：我們完全沒有護短，而且我在這裡再跟委員報告，政府的誠信很重要、政府的威信很重要，但是政府威信的建立，不是像在威權獨裁國家那樣子地壓迫經濟……"],["游委員毓蘭：沒錯、沒錯，是。"],["陳院長建仁：各個企業，這樣的話沒有辦法。政府有簽約，就要維持自己的誠信，那政府當然也來勸這一個企業來發表……"],["游委員毓蘭：院長，我百分之三百同意我們一定要有捍衛我們民主法治這樣的決心跟能力，但是我們絕對不可以用中國介選為藉口，然後進行司法介選之實，因為昨天……"],["陳院長建仁：中國有沒有介選的話還需要偵查。"],["游委員毓蘭：還要去偵查？"],["陳院長建仁：當然。"],["游委員毓蘭：但是有些偵查的就很奇怪了，因為……"],["陳院長建仁：所有的深偽製造，我們如果查到這個來源，也許是從境外進來的，那當然就要……就像我剛才講的那個Linbay好油，就是這樣查，查到境外去再查回來的，還有那個黨工的1,000個帳號也是這樣查出來的。"],["游委員毓蘭：好好地查。"],["蔡部長清祥：好。"],["游委員毓蘭：好好地辦。"],["陳院長建仁：好，一定。"],["游委員毓蘭：但是絕對不可以動用檢調、司法來介選，讓他們……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這回事。"],["游委員毓蘭：產生寒蟬效應。比如我的PPT上面右邊的這位劉佳昇警官，他只不過講了「兩岸一家親」、「子子孫孫要和平」，就用反滲透法去辦他。我覺得我們警察，我這麼多年來在警察大學，我都告訴我的學生們，我們是行政中立，但是我們捍衛和平，我們不是戰爭的工具，所以和平沒有什麼不對的，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["蔡部長清祥：我們是一定毋枉毋縱。"],["游委員毓蘭：是。"],["蔡部長清祥：絕對沒有司法介選這回事。我們都是因為有涉嫌犯罪，檢調才會啟動偵查的，所以絕對不是司法介選這一回事。"],["游委員毓蘭：但是所有的里長一回來，只要到中國大陸回來的，馬上……"],["蔡部長清祥：因為他有涉嫌刑責，所以才會接受到約詢或是調查，所以這些不是針對什麼特定的團體或人。"],["游委員毓蘭：大家最近在辦這個也未免太積極了，好像其他的詐騙案都不存在一樣。","不過，接下來我比較關心的倒是我們的退休金問題，因為本席即將卸任，要回去領退休金。到底我們要不要漲這4%？"],["陳院長建仁：我想退休金的調漲有法律上的規定，如果是經過4年或者物價指數累積超過5%的時候……"],["游委員毓蘭：超過5%。"],["陳院長建仁：就應該檢討。"],["游委員毓蘭：就應該要嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：我們主計總處已經做一個估算。"],["游委員毓蘭：是，因為本席已經多次提出質詢。"],["陳院長建仁：已經……看起來是超過5%。"],["游委員毓蘭：是。"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們現在啟動一個討論的機制，由考試院跟……"],["游委員毓蘭：只不過剛剛好在選前才去講這件事，大家認為這是選舉的……"],["陳院長建仁：不，這個本來……"],["游委員毓蘭：其實不是。"],["陳院長建仁：不是喔！不是。"],["游委員毓蘭：因為我們法律上……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["游委員毓蘭：法律上就規定，因為本席其實在蘇貞昌院長的時候也提過，甚至於……"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，我們去年7、8月在預算書送到大院的時候……"],["游委員毓蘭：對，就已經……"],["朱主計長澤民：就有編列這筆預算，所以跟選舉完全無關。"],["游委員毓蘭：對，預估了、預估了。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["游委員毓蘭：因為預估了，因為這個……"],["陳院長建仁：……是預估。"],["游委員毓蘭：也不用再講說我們的德政，因為事實上累積就已經超過了，2.95%加2.50%是5.45%，早就超過了，也就是理論上你們在……"],["陳院長建仁：最後的精算。"],["游委員毓蘭：你們在那個時候，今年元月1日就應該要開始了。"],["陳院長建仁：我們預估啦！我們預估可能會超過5%。"],["游委員毓蘭：主計長你剛好上來，我也提過很多次，我希望對於高齡的家庭的CPI，不應該是……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們已經有公布了，相關單位可以參考。"],["游委員毓蘭：是，我這邊也有弄出來，這也是你們公布的，因為高齡的CPI遠高於全國平均的CPI，所以這是一個……"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有遠高於，大概0.2%啦！"],["游委員毓蘭：不止啊！原來那邊是5.45%，這邊是5.92%，5.92%比5.45%不是只有高0.2%……"],["朱主計長澤民：不，我說兩年、兩年。"],["游委員毓蘭：抱歉……"],["朱主計長澤民：一年大概0.2%。"],["游委員毓蘭：主計長，我是要愛惜你的羽毛，我怕你到時候又變成那個蚵仔麵線20塊一樣，這個對於我們……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，他是講一年。"],["朱主計長澤民：一年，一年0.2%。"],["游委員毓蘭：沒有，我們的法律文字上是累積喔！我們本來就是累積的。所以對我們的CPI，我很希望要修就把它修得比較好，應該有針對高齡家庭的CPI，這樣會更早達到可以調整的標準，所以在這個部分其實……"],["陳院長建仁：法律不是這樣寫的啦！法律沒有分年齡，CPI在那個原來的法律裡面是寫物價指數累計……"],["游委員毓蘭：所以我們可以修法嘛！我們可以修法，因為退休族群就是屬於高齡……"],["陳院長建仁：修法我們……"],["朱主計長澤民：修法要尊重大院。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["游委員毓蘭：既然要修，本席本來也希望你們能夠稍微更敏感一點，這些都是我們當時在立法院裡面……"],["陳院長建仁：這是年改本來就有的法，用來照顧退休的軍公教人員。"],["游委員毓蘭：我的時間已經快要用完了，最後我還是很關心在死刑存廢上的相關爭論，因為我們看到新北那個國中生被狂砍十幾刀之後送醫，第一天輸血就達6萬cc，我希望我們的少年事件處理法一定要有配套措施，要讓孩子們能夠在臺灣平安長大，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們來檢討。"],["主席：好，謝謝游委員。","接下來請莊委員瑞雄質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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有請行政院陳院長陳院長請"},{"start":20.302,"end":22.943,"text":"保密條款的文字內容我等一下的看一下"},{"start":50.538,"end":51.098,"text":"法密條款的文字內容請"},{"start":72.127,"end":81.291,"text":"雙方同意訂定本保密合約為雙方遵循之依據本合約所謂機密性資料據包括採購的單價、原物料價格等商業採購相關訊息取得的方式"},{"start":90.646,"end":100.597,"text":"包括不限於口頭、文字、書寫、錄音等等那機密性資料取得之日期﹐不論其為本合約簽署日之前或之後均屬之"},{"start":101.875,"end":103.457,"text":"蔡總統拍了一部小電影還蠻好看的有"},{"start":125.693,"end":152.479,"text":"因為現在不是只有蔡總統在路上蔡總統還在錄音帶上所以我才會接下來要請教一下因為我們法務部其實在去年年底就已經講了說他依照這個他們最高檢就從去年的12月11日到今年1月5日子全權處理全國性重大假訊息案件而且會指派主任檢察官"},{"start":153.475,"end":167.827,"text":"與檢察官負責偵辦,針對影響選舉的假訊息,執法部門、法務部、地檢署、調查局,要立即澄清,迅速下架,溯源追查主權。"},{"start":177.235,"end":184.963,"text":"蔡總統的小電影叫《在路上》可是現在變成《在路應帶上》因為最近我們看到我們"},{"start":186.26,"end":208.466,"text":"的同事羅智政委員他被公布的有各種不同的不同的資料影音資料有A片的也有裡面就是影射可能是跟蔡總統的對話這些我覺得這個是知識體大不管是真是假"},{"start":210.147,"end":231.607,"text":"這不符合我剛剛念的你們在一開始的時候要有一個打假的假訊息的這個迅速偵辦中心的你們重要的意志不是嗎?是沒錯吧 對不對所以你就不可以說這個是個人隱私啦這是私德問題這已經不是因為"},{"start":233.696,"end":240.725,"text":"雖然我跟蔡總統不屬於同一個黨派但是他是我的國家元首"},{"start":241.414,"end":265.513,"text":"我覺得當他被人家錄音我現在還搞不清楚我還搞不清楚這個錄音帶的內容的真假等等的可是因為裡面有一些內容我知道這也是我們在國防外交委員會常常聽到比如說羅智政委員有時候也會談起的但是我會擔心啊羅智政委員他是當過國防外交委員會的"},{"start":267.443,"end":274.388,"text":"這件事情當然是相當的重要所以我今天早上已經講得很清楚這一件事情的話我們完全支持我們檢調單位要來的積極查辦"},{"start":295.499,"end":312.036,"text":"並且很快的來掌握相關的報導與殷黨的內容是不是有透露身為或者涉及藉選都要由鑑識機關來進行相關的鑑識這件事情是相當的重要我相信部長也有這樣的一個看法"},{"start":312.786,"end":334.129,"text":"對 我是建議絕對不可以就是因為我們說就像破唱盤一樣跳針一樣說中共借血你用一個中共借血你就遮掩掉很多我們政府該作為而不作為我們自己不認真辦案這個是我再怎麼樣我都無法忍受的沒有 我覺得他們沒有不認真辦案我是支持他們要"},{"start":334.639,"end":336.16,"text":"對他們來講他們也都很需要一個真相如果"},{"start":353.01,"end":381.805,"text":"這件事情對他們是謠言的話我們趕快把千萬不要像過去吳敦義的這個錄音帶風波等到這個查出來之後都說這個是假的時候他都已經落選都已經變成制定的現實現在的這個身為的做法相當的多五發八門所以在建設的工作上我們也會積極來努力那更重要的就是"},{"start":382.318,"end":399.866,"text":"我們在打造這個行動方案行動綱領1.5的時候有構置了一些儀器設備能夠做更精準的這樣的一個鑑識的工作那還有追查這個訊息來源所以這個部分我相信"},{"start":400.287,"end":425.376,"text":"我們檢調單位還有這個新市警察局也會來好好的來偵辦所以剛剛院長講到重點身為的技術雖然不斷升高可是道高一尺磨高一丈但是我們希望現在是磨高一尺我們道要高好幾丈才可以所以一定要支持包括我們第一線的檢調警都要有足夠的工具"},{"start":425.976,"end":452.432,"text":"其實我看到剛剛我就給大家看了你們去年年底說我們有個專責小組我看到裡面有一個檢察官有主任檢察官就是我們建市我們自己建市系的校友他也是建市專家但是不可以讓這一群精兵去打一個沒有工具的戰所以一定要請這個院長部長你們要支持第一線的員警要讓"},{"start":453.413,"end":478.713,"text":"有責任的人也要有權利而不要因為有太多政治的考量現在因為這個選舉期間暫時不要有的時候就是要神速我們就是很快的把這個事情他是假訊息馬上公布的話至少不會繼續擴大否則其實我的同事羅志正我覺得他現在也一定很頭痛因為我"},{"start":479.974,"end":499.606,"text":"一下子錄音帶 一下子A片然後現在聽說又有20支高清的袋子我覺得對他來講 這我們應該減掉要勇敢的負起我們會加強來做而且我要在這裡跟委員報告就是說我們這個建設的這個設備基本上在很多媒體上都錯誤報導說我們打仗"},{"start":502.087,"end":523.215,"text":"1.5的行動綱領花了27億去做裝潢這完全錯誤的啦實際上我們就是來精進這個儀器設備然後像那個林北好遊這些案子還有一些黨工有1000個帳號我們都是能夠這樣查出來所以我們絕對會積極來偵辦這件事情查個水落石出盡早讓真相能夠"},{"start":523.735,"end":523.895,"text":"主席"},{"start":536.377,"end":537.258,"text":"政府的公權力是碎死了嗎?"},{"start":564.759,"end":582.758,"text":"高端是全民買單立委是國防外交委員會包括趙天寧委員的那個小三豐富也是一樣的政府跟司法單位不可以明目張膽的去互短這個我是完全同意的我們完全沒有互短而且我在這裡在跟委員報告"},{"start":583.759,"end":594.112,"text":"政府的誠信很重要政府的威信很重要但是政府威信的建立不是像在威權獨裁國家那樣子的壓迫軍機各個企業這樣的話沒有辦法政府有簽約就要維持自己的誠信"},{"start":603.383,"end":619.899,"text":"院長我300%同意我們一定要有捍衛我們民主法治的這樣的決心跟能力但是我們絕對不可以用中國界選為藉口然後進行司法界選之時中國有沒有界選的話還需要偵查啦"},{"start":622.725,"end":643.531,"text":"還要去偵查當然啦但是有些偵查的就很奇怪啦因為所有的身為的製造我們如果查到這個來源也許是從境外進來的那當然就要跟就像我剛才講的那個林北好遊就是這樣查到境外去再查回來的還有那個黨工的一千個帳號也是這樣查出來的"},{"start":643.951,"end":644.031,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":661.562,"end":683.019,"text":"他只不過講了兩岸一家親子子孫孫要和平就用反滲透法去辦它我覺得我們警察我這麼多年來在警察大學我都告訴我的學生們我們是行政中立但是我們捍衛和平我們不是戰爭的工具所以和平沒有什麼不對的好不好謝謝我們是一定勿忘勿重"},{"start":685.181,"end":705.035,"text":"絕對沒有司法借選這回事我們都是因為有涉嫌犯罪檢調才會啟動偵查的所以絕對不是司法借選這一回事所有的里長一回來只要到中國大陸回來因為他有涉嫌刑責所以才會接受到約詢或是調查所以這不是針對什麼特定的法律問題"},{"start":706.896,"end":709.418,"text":"本席即將卸任 要回去領退休金 到底我們要不要漲4%"},{"start":724.445,"end":724.825,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":746.289,"end":746.729,"text":"因為預估了"},{"start":773.303,"end":773.984,"text":"最後的精算"},{"start":790.703,"end":791.724,"text":"我們已經有公布了相關單位可以參考"},{"start":809.508,"end":811.751,"text":"沒有遠高於大概0.2個百分點"},{"start":824.5,"end":842.776,"text":"不只啊 原來那邊是5.45這邊是5.925.92比5.45不是只有高0.2我這兩年 兩年抱歉齁 主席長我是要愛惜你的羽毛我怕你到時候又變成那個歐阿米索20塊一樣沒有啦 它是早1年 1年2.5"},{"start":847.841,"end":853.308,"text":"法律文字上是累積的所以CPI應該針對高齡家庭的CPI更早達到可以調整的"},{"start":868.822,"end":891.606,"text":"法律不是這樣寫的啦法律沒有分年齡GPI在那個原來的法律裡面是寫說所以我們可以修法嘛我們可以修法因為你退休退休期就是屬於高竟然要修嘛因為本席本來也希望說你們能夠更稍微更敏感一點這些都是我們當時在在這個立法院裡面"},{"start":892.606,"end":910.265,"text":"這是年改本來就有的法案 修的法來照顧退休的軍公教人員最後當然我時間已經快要用完我還是很關心在死刑存廢上的這些爭論因為我們看到了新北的那個國中生"},{"start":910.865,"end":924.741,"text":"他在被狂砍十幾刀之後他那天第一天他送到醫院就出血就是6萬CC我希望我們的少年事件處理法一定要有配套措施要讓孩子們能夠在"}]}},{"id":"149085","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149085","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee68978fa76a61839451b826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50b0c4806fe5b20b735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳斯懷","委員發言時間":"11:46:23 - 12:02:06","影片長度":"00:15:43","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":943,"end_time":"2024-01-09T12:02:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T11:46:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1103,"blocks":[["吳委員斯懷：（11時46分）謝謝院長，有請陳建仁院長。"],["主席：陳院長請。"],["陳院長建仁：吳委員好。"],["吳委員斯懷：院長好。我還是要問，剛才已經有兩位委員質詢過，高端和衛福部互相踢皮球，民眾跟媒體質疑的事，到底誰不想公開？薛部長你可以上來，但是不要回答，因為你剛才已經回答兩次，你可以上臺。你說這是高端自己公司的公布，與事實不符，媒體跟社會大眾心中自有評論，你已經回答兩次兩個委員的質詢。我要問的是，既然它不是事實，那就影響政府的威信，它是一個假訊息，或者你們最喜歡用的是一個認知作戰。請問從5月20號、5月30號公告到一年半以後，面臨縣市長選舉了，你們在111年11月3號發了個函問高端可否公布，你們跟高端之間需要用公文來來去去，沒有聯絡，沒有電話，沒有人可以接觸嗎？3號發了文，它不理你，22號再發個文，再次詢問貴公司可否公開？時隔一年半，如果它是假的，它說是主管機關不同意，如果是假的，一年半不處理，發兩個文以後，我想請問部長一件事，選舉前做這個動作，在縣市長選舉前，就是被質疑這是為了選情，為了縣市長選舉操作，那我現在問一個問題就好，你們在11月3號、11月22號發兩次文給高端，它有沒有回復？"],["薛部長瑞元：過去那兩次，應該是兩年前了，它沒有回復。"],["吳委員斯懷：沒有回復？政府威信何在？它是一家企業，我告訴你，我問你可以、不可以，你不行就回復我不行，是依據什麼、什麼，行就行，政府在幹什麼？這是政府的威信耶！院長，我們政府管不了一個企業嗎？管不了一個公司嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想委員你問得相當好，我再重複一次，實際上雙方簽訂契約的時候，如果有簽訂保密條款之後，我們雙方都應該要互相尊重……"],["吳委員斯懷：院長，你已經回答一個早上了，保密條款、保密條款，這些我沒有意見，我問的是，我是政府，你不過是一家企業，我問你可不可以？你要回復我嘛！理都不理你！政府威信何在？","好，我們再看，我認為媒體質疑、很多民眾質疑，這是一個為了縣市長選舉的選舉操作，當人家質疑你們的時候，我們政府說我有發文給他，是他沒有回答我。你們對他這家公司如此的寬容，哪一家上市上櫃公司敢這樣子對政府？我不相信！不然金管會主委舉個例子給我聽，有哪一家公司敢在你發文兩次之後理都不理你？查一下就有，這個不用你說、不用我說、不用回答，查就知道了嘛！為什麼獨厚高端？這是民眾、媒體的質疑。監察院接著調查報告出來，時隔兩年了，這個報告出來以後，請問衛福部做了什麼事？"],["薛部長瑞元：哪一個方面？我們做很多事。"],["吳委員斯懷：你做了很多事，我們不知道，我們是立法委員，媒體不知道、社會大眾不知道，你做了什麼事？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以委員在問的是哪一方面？"],["吳委員斯懷：哪一方面？就是講這個啊！你資訊不公開啊！監察院的報告你沒看過嗎？看過沒有嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個資訊不公開的部分就是合約的限制。"],["吳委員斯懷：你又在談保密條款。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個沒有錯，因為政府……"],["吳委員斯懷：好，我們不要扯。"],["薛部長瑞元：政府跟一個民間的企業簽了合約，難道政府說我要用強力的公權力來違約嗎？"],["吳委員斯懷：部長，你等一下，你不要講話，我告訴你，我不要再跟你談保密條款。","接下來，我在衛環委員會，第一、第二會期我在那裡，我對這個事情非常清楚，我們一再的要求，你們那時候口風緊得不得了，說什麼都是不可以、不可以，要怎麼樣、怎麼樣。好，到現在了，110年5月30號高端這個出來了，我們還在追，照樣不理我們。到了一年半以後你們發兩個文，縣市長選舉了，還剩幾天了，請它是否可以公開？它不理你！我現在才知道，發兩個文的結論是它沒有回復你，這是政府的威信嗎？然後到現在，我在衛環委員會看過你們提供的資料，那時候你還沒當部長，塗黑的將近三分之二，看了跟沒看一樣，這是你們當初的心態跟口風。現在要……"],["陳院長建仁：這個保密條約是簽5年……"],["吳委員斯懷：我們不談，陳院長，賴清德總統候選人說應該要公開了，整個態度丕變，我中間再問一個重要的問題，就是政府權責的問題，你這個約裡面到底有沒有除外條款？部長，你知不知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：除外條款指的是說什麼時候是可以揭露的？"],["吳委員斯懷：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：像是司法機關在調查的時候，我們是可以揭露，但是它有一些條件、一些程序要進行。"],["吳委員斯懷：有沒有除外條款？我問，有沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：有！"],["吳委員斯懷：有！那今天這個狀況，全民都在質疑、社會大眾質疑、媒體質疑，在野黨所有的委員都在質疑有沒有弊案、有沒有後面等一下我要問的錄音檔的問題，那麼它就是符合除外條款……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有。"],["吳委員斯懷：等一下，我沒叫你回答，這個案子是有可能，我沒有說一定，有可能有重大弊案，除外條款就生效，法務部長可以回答這個問題，這是法律嘛！什麼叫除外條款？萬一我政府跟你簽的約有可能，我沒有說一定，有可能會產生重大舞弊案，除外條款就要生效。法務部長，是不是這樣子？除外條款的定義是不是這樣子？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果有例外的情形，當然就可以遵照辦理。"],["吳委員斯懷：對，有可能有重大舞弊案，或者其他影響人民生命安全的這種可能，除外條款就必須生效，就法律的定義是不是這樣子？"],["蔡部長清祥：那我們要看契約，還有比照相關的規定才能瞭解。"],["吳委員斯懷：我曉得你們的回答會這樣，但我告訴你全民的認知是這樣，有可能發生，除外條款生效，就拿出來公開嘛！現在我不跟你追這一個。"],["陳院長建仁：這個除外條款如果要公開時，要運用它、要公開的時候，我們要預先通知。"],["吳委員斯懷：當然，它有一定的行政程序。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員斯懷：院長，你放心……"],["陳院長建仁：然後我們給這個預先的程序……"],["吳委員斯懷：我在公部門四十多年，公部門執行任何事情要有一定的行政程序。"],["陳院長建仁：對，沒有錯。"],["吳委員斯懷：你剛才也講過，我清楚。但我問的是有沒有除外條款？薛部長說有，我就問法務部長除外條款的定義，是不是假如有這些可能發生，除外條款就應該生效，就可以引用除外條款來公開嘛，對不對？我有沒有說錯？"],["陳院長建仁：是啊！沒有說錯，但是還是要讓對方知道、通知對方。"],["吳委員斯懷：當然、當然，這是行政程序。"],["陳院長建仁：對於這整個公開合約的這件事情，我們覺得如果雙方能夠達成合意，然後一起來公開，那是最好的……"],["吳委員斯懷：我知道到現在，院長……"],["陳院長建仁：但是如果沒有，我們這個除外條款就可以使用。"],["吳委員斯懷：院長，你不要耽誤我的時間，我告訴你的是，到現在為止，政府對高端一籌莫展，什麼事情都是高端說了算，我們要求發公文，它不理我，我們希望它回答，它是「我不回答，你奈何不了我」……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有一籌莫展。"],["吳委員斯懷：現在我們看到你一個早上的回應，除了民進黨籍委員拼命做球給你、拼命罵在野黨之外，對於其他人的質詢，你都是這種回答，所以不需要再說。","我現在說賴清德副總統，現在的總統候選人說應該公開了，10天了，我們採取了什麼措施？你們看一下媒體的反應，柯文哲講得好笑：一年多來你身為副總統都不作聲，都沒有聲音嗎？陳琬惠委員說：高端弊案跟陳時中、賴清德不同調，英系不甩新潮流。這是他們說的，不是我說的！"],["陳院長建仁：都不正確。"],["吳委員斯懷：批民進黨高端合約大玩兩面手法，黃國昌說：英系陳時中在給新潮流賴清德難看。"],["陳院長建仁：我不贊成這樣的講法，這是不正確的消息。"],["吳委員斯懷：你不贊成，我沒有意見，你當然不贊成，但我告訴你，這是媒體的反應。"],["陳院長建仁：對，是錯誤的。"],["吳委員斯懷：是這些人說的話。但是11天了，你們到底想不想公開？"],["陳院長建仁：想。"],["吳委員斯懷：想公開？今天的臨時會，差一點開不成！"],["陳院長建仁：開不成是因為簽名還沒有簽滿啊！"],["吳委員斯懷：對，那你們想公開，有沒有可能公開？"],["陳院長建仁：那不能夠怪行政院，我跟委員講得很清楚，我今天早上的報告也講得很清楚，賴副總統想公開，政府也想越快公開越好，但是這裡面牽涉到我們的保密條款……"],["吳委員斯懷：又是保密條款，好……"],["陳院長建仁：我們現在還在跟高端協商，希望他能夠早日公開……"],["吳委員斯懷：好，你不要浪費我的時間，我時間不多了。我再問下一個問題，關於政府官員的官箴，當賴副總統一講了這個話之後，薛部長就在上班時間到競選總部去，有了這張照片，這是媒體刊的，不是我講的，它不是假新聞，是有這個事，你去幹什麼？人家說你是政府的官員，它是競選總部，政務官、不要說政務官，所有政府體系的人都應該在選舉中保持行政中立，請問法務部長對不對？這句話我有沒有說錯？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們當然要求所有的官員都應該要中立。"],["吳委員斯懷：行政中立，對不對？尤其身為部長，又跟這個案子有那麼密切的關係，你去幹了什麼事？"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，我可以回答嗎？"],["吳委員斯懷：可以，你說你去做了什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們是去找柯建銘總召談今天要開臨時會的事情，柯總召早上在這邊走來走去，委員是還沒有來，要不然你直接問他就知道。"],["陳院長建仁：所以實際上是指鹿為馬。"],["吳委員斯懷：這不是指鹿為馬。"],["陳院長建仁：是，你跟他們……"],["吳委員斯懷：等一下，薛部長，你跟柯總召兩個人講的話誰能證明？我們今天要取信於民，那我告訴你的是……"],["薛部長瑞元：在場還有一位洪申翰委員，你去問他。"],["吳委員斯懷：我不要去問他。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊，你又不求證！"],["吳委員斯懷：你把他們3個人叫出來……"],["薛部長瑞元：你拿這種東西誣衊我……"],["吳委員斯懷：我不是誣衊你，這不是我誣衊你，我有我的質詢權……"],["薛部長瑞元：我已經解釋了啊！"],["吳委員斯懷：我是言論保障，我的言論免責權，我告訴你……"],["薛部長瑞元：好啦、好啦，我知道啦！我不會告你啦！"],["陳院長建仁：言論免責權也不應該指鹿為馬。"],["吳委員斯懷：我沒有說你怎麼樣啊！我只是問你去幹嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：言論免責權不應該指鹿為馬。"],["吳委員斯懷：我把網路的事情告訴你，這是網路的笑話，不是我講的，政府官員去競選總部見這些重要幹部是去串證，還是湮滅……"],["陳院長建仁：錯誤的。"],["吳委員斯懷：不是，等一下，網路說的……"],["陳院長建仁：網路錯了、網路錯了。"],["吳委員斯懷：好，網路錯了，沒關係。薛部長，你必須用事實去證明你沒有做這些事。"],["薛部長瑞元：有人作夢，他有作夢的權利，我沒有解夢的義務。"],["吳委員斯懷：但是你有權利，也有義務、有責任，你要去證明你沒有做這些事。"],["陳院長建仁：他剛才已經講得很清楚，因為當時柯總召是在競選總部，這一件事……"],["薛部長瑞元：在他辦公室。"],["陳院長建仁：在他辦公室，所以這一件事情……因為貴黨說要開臨時會，這是很緊急的事情……"],["吳委員斯懷：這個是羅生門……"],["陳院長建仁：所以大家趕快去那裡討論嘛……"],["吳委員斯懷：你說你的，我們說我們的，信者恆信，不信者恆不信。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員要這樣子嗎？"],["吳委員斯懷：我沒有，我沒有這樣子。"],["薛部長瑞元：把這種謠言這樣子傳是對的嗎？"],["吳委員斯懷：我沒有這樣講，我沒有講，我說這是網路說的。"],["陳院長建仁：網路錯誤嘛！"],["吳委員斯懷：我也沒有說你的人格有問題，我都沒有說。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，網路是錯的，這是指鹿為馬的事情。"],["吳委員斯懷：院長，你說網路錯的，我沒有意見，我沒有意見……"],["陳院長建仁：當時談的就是貴院要開臨時會這件事情……"],["吳委員斯懷：最後的時間我問一件事……"],["陳院長建仁：然後在那邊談，大概就是這樣……"],["吳委員斯懷：在社環委員會第1、第2會期的時候，我們提了很多案，針對高端的問題、針對人民健康的問題、針對有沒有圖利的問題，我們提了10個案統統被民進黨封殺。第一個，我們要1個月內擴大採購，WHO認證的疫苗4,000萬劑提案被封殺，我們人數表決不過，公開3＋11完整的會議紀錄，沒有公開……"],["陳院長建仁：WHO，委員……"],["吳委員斯懷：等一下，讓我講完嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["吳委員斯懷：第三個，國產高端疫苗的緊急使用授權審查，我們要求、我們有提案應該比照美國FDA全程直播公開，也被封殺，這就是民進黨執政黨的態度，我們讓全民來檢查、讓媒體來看，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：委員要世界衛生組織的疫苗進來，包括中國的疫苗，而中國的疫苗是沒有效果的……"],["吳委員斯懷：媒體跟……"],["陳院長建仁：這個案件是不可行的，而且會傷害國人健康。"],["吳委員斯懷：謝謝，請回。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","報告院會，上午質詢到此為止，下午2時30分繼續專案報告之質詢，現在休息。","休息（12時2分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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院長我們政府管不了一個企業嗎管不了一個公司嗎我想 委員你問得相當好我再重複一次實際上雙方簽訂契約的時候如果有簽訂了這一個保密的條款的時候那我們雙方都應該要來互相尊重你已經回答一個早上了保密條例 保密條款這些我沒有意見我問的是"},{"start":209.588,"end":232.789,"text":"我是政府你不過是一家企業我問你可不可以你要回覆我嗎你都不理你政府威信何在好我們再看我認為媒體質疑很多民眾質疑這是一個為了縣市長選舉的選舉操作當人家質疑你們的時候我們政府說我有發文給他是他沒有回答我"},{"start":233.49,"end":233.63,"text":"監察院"},{"start":262.697,"end":290.74,"text":"接著教堂報告出來在時隔兩年了這個報告出來以後請問衛福部做了什麼事哪一個方面我們做很多事你做了很多事我們不知道我們是立法委員媒體不知道社會大眾不知道你做了什麼事所以委員在問的是哪一方面哪一方面就是講這個資訊不公開啊監察院的報告你沒看過嗎"},{"start":294.359,"end":317.333,"text":"這個資訊不公開的部分的話就是合約的限制你又在談保密條款這個沒有錯因為政府跟一個民間的企業去簽了合約難道政府說我要用強力的公權力來違約嗎部長你等一下你不要講話我告訴你我不要再跟你談保密條款我們摘下來我在未還委員會第一第二會期我在那裡"},{"start":318.444,"end":342.325,"text":"我對這個事情非常清楚我們一再的要求你們那時候口風緊得不得了說什麼都是不可以不可以要怎麼樣怎麼樣好 到現在了110年5月30號高端這個出來了我們還在追照樣不理我們到了一年半以後你們發兩個文縣市長選舉了還剩幾天了"},{"start":347.08,"end":374.779,"text":"請他是否可以公開他不理你我現在才知道發兩個結論是他沒回覆你這是政府的威信嗎然後到現在我在吳斯懷委員會看過你們提供的資料那時候你還沒當部長塗黑的將近三分之二看的跟沒看一樣這是你們當初的心態"},{"start":376.167,"end":383.632,"text":"政府權責的問題你這個約裏面到底有沒有除外條款部長你知不知道"},{"start":406.986,"end":427.724,"text":"除外條款指的是說什麼時候是可以揭露的嗎對在這一個好像是司法機關在調查的時候我們是可以揭露但是他有一些條件 有沒有除外條款我問有沒有有有那今天這個狀況"},{"start":430.1,"end":454.04,"text":"全民都在質疑社會大眾之一媒體之一在野黨所有的委員都在質疑有沒有弊案有沒有後面還有等下我問的錄音檔的問題那麼他就是符合除外條款沒有這個案子再等一下我沒叫你回答是有可能我沒有說一定有可能有重大弊案"},{"start":455,"end":479.525,"text":"除外條款就生效法務部長可以回答這問題這是法律嘛什麼叫除外條款萬一我政府給你簽的約有可能我沒有說一定啊有可能會產生重大舞弊案除外條款就要生效法務部長是不是這樣子除外條款的定義是不是這樣子"},{"start":480.575,"end":496.398,"text":"如果有例外的情形當然就可以來遵照辦理有可能有五重大五必要或者其他影響人民生命安全的這種可能就除外條款就必須生效就法律的定義是不是這樣子"},{"start":497.54,"end":522.974,"text":"那我們要看契約還有來比照相關的規定我跟你們的回答會這樣那我告訴你全民的認識是這樣有可能發生除外條款生效就拿出來公開嘛現在我不跟你追這個除外條款如果要公開的時候要應用它要公開的時候我們要預先要預先通知當然它有一定的行政程序院長你放心我在公部門40多年"},{"start":526.092,"end":549.149,"text":"公布門執行任何事情要有一定的行政程序你剛才也講過我清楚但是我自己問的是有沒有除外條款薛部長說有我就問法務部長除外條款的定義是不是假如有這些可能發生除外條款就應該生效就可以引用除外條款來公開對不對我有沒有說錯"},{"start":551.772,"end":579.194,"text":"沒有錯錯但是還是要讓要有一個讓對方通知對方當然當然這是行政程序但是在我們整個對於這個公開的合約的這件事情我們是覺得說如果能夠雙方能夠達成合意然後一起來公開我知道到現在但是如果沒有我們這個局外條款就可以使用我告訴你的是到現在為止是政府對高端一籌莫展"},{"start":579.907,"end":580.487,"text":"現在的總統候選人說應該公開了10天了"},{"start":609.721,"end":630.37,"text":"我們採取了什麼措施你們看一下這個媒體的反應柯文哲講的好笑一年多你身為副總統都不作聲都沒有聲音嗎陳晚會委員說高端弊案跟陳時中耐心的不同調陰系不甩新潮流這是他們說的不是我說的"},{"start":632.32,"end":644.261,"text":"拒民進黨高端合約大完兩面手法黃國昌說應系陳時中在給新潮流耐心的難看我不贊成這樣的講法這是不正確的消息"},{"start":644.775,"end":673.2,"text":"你不贊成我沒有意見你當然不贊成但是這是我告訴你這是媒體的反應這些人說的話但是11天了你們到底想不想公開想公開今天開臨時會差一點開不成開不成是因為簽名還沒有簽滿你們想公開我跟委員講得很清楚我今天早上的報告講這個賴副總統想公開政府也"},{"start":674.329,"end":675.649,"text":"當這個賴副總統一講了這個話之後 薛部長 你在上班時間到競選總部去 有這張照片"},{"start":704.665,"end":722.327,"text":"這是媒體看的,不是我講的啊,它不是假新聞啊,事有這個事,你去看什麼,人家就說你是政府的官員,他是競選總部政務官,不要說政務官了,所有政府體系的人都應該在選舉中保持行政中立,法務部長對不對?"},{"start":723.752,"end":731.755,"text":"我們是去找柯建銘總召談今天要開臨時會的事件柯總召早上在這邊走來走去委員其實是沒有來要不然你直接問他就知道"},{"start":751.075,"end":779.5,"text":"所以實際上這個指鹿為馬不是指鹿為馬等一下 薛部長你跟柯總召兩個人講的話誰能證明我們今天要取信於民嘛那我告訴你的是在場還有一位洪森漢委員你去問他我不要去問他你把這三個人叫出來你把這種東西污衊我我不是污衊你"},{"start":780.18,"end":784.782,"text":"我把網路的事情告訴你網路的笑話不是我講的說說這個政府官員去競選總部見這些重要幹部是去篡政"},{"start":806.198,"end":826.242,"text":"還是湮滅 錯誤的沒有 等一下網路說的網路錯了網路錯了網路錯 網路錯沒關係 薛部長你必須用事實去證明你沒有做這些事有人做夢 他有做夢的權利我沒有解夢的義務好 但是你有權利也有義務有責任證明"},{"start":829.062,"end":829.082,"text":"吳斯懷議員"},{"start":843.912,"end":849.398,"text":"貴黨說要開臨時會,這是很緊急的事情所以大家趕快去那裡討論嘛我沒有這樣講,我沒有講,我這是網路說的我也沒有說你的人格有問題,我都沒有說"},{"start":863.294,"end":865.915,"text":"我們在未還委員會的時候第一第二會期我們提了很多案針對高端的問題針對人民健康的問題"},{"start":886.333,"end":900.478,"text":"針對有沒有圖利的問題我們提了10個案通通被民進黨封殺第一個我們要一個月內擴大採購WHO認證的疫苗4000萬劑提案被封殺我們人數表決不過"},{"start":901.578,"end":902.218,"text":"委員要世界維生"}]}},{"id":"149084","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149084","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee6897b52c23e977d4bf5826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b504e2a3821e8710cc65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡適應","委員發言時間":"11:30:22 - 11:46:18","影片長度":"00:15:56","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":956,"end_time":"2024-01-09T11:46:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T11:30:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":963,"blocks":[["蔡委員適應：（11時30分）感謝院長，請陳建仁院長就備詢台，謝謝。"],["主席：院長請。"],["陳院長建仁：蔡委員午安。"],["蔡委員適應：院長好。我剛才聽了國民黨委員的質詢，尤其最後一段非常的無厘頭，在問關於AV的事情。我跟院長講一下，最近我聽到一個笑話是說，現在只要在臺灣打AV，後面連結就是國民黨，為什麼？因為大家會想到原來上國民黨網站就可以看到關於AV的很多相關資訊。我認為離選舉剩下沒有幾天的時間，任何一個政黨應該就其國家政策提出藍圖，而不是在講什麼AV的事情，所以我覺得這真的是滑天下之大稽！","今天的重點在於整個高端解密的相關問題，我想先請教院長，我的第一問題是說，我們在這次的採購裡面，因為當時你不是擔任院長的職務，但我想你對於醫療非常瞭解，就院長所知道的，當時臺灣跟哪幾家公司有簽訂疫苗採購合約？"],["陳院長建仁：這裡面有包括COVAX、AZ、莫德納、BNT，還有高端，我們都有簽採購合約。"],["蔡委員適應：聯亞有沒有簽訂？"],["陳院長建仁：聯亞當時有參加臨床試驗……"],["蔡委員適應：所以應該也有嘛，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：也有簽，但是簽的是補助它的臨床實驗……"],["蔡委員適應：我瞭解。"],["陳院長建仁：它到臨床實驗二期失敗。"],["蔡委員適應：部長在旁邊，我想請教一下，您當時擔任職位是……"],["薛部長瑞元：政務次長。"],["蔡委員適應：我想請教一下，這幾家簽訂合約的公司都有簽所謂的保密條款嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["蔡委員適應：都有？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["蔡委員適應：為什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然啊，因為第一個是裡面有技術性資料，我們……"],["蔡委員適應：會在合約裡面，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，要簽約的時候要給我們看。"],["蔡委員適應：OK。"],["薛部長瑞元：第二個就是有關於價格跟數量以及期程的部分，它必須要做保密。"],["蔡委員適應：OK，好。所以其實大多數跟我們政府簽訂疫苗採購的合約商，基於剛才部長所講的這幾個原則，第一個是它整個生產的配方，第二個是生產提供交貨數量及交貨流程。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：我想請教一下部長，就你的專業判斷，為什麼這幾件事情要保密起來？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為這些東西如果洩漏出去的話，第一個會妨礙它公司跟其他國家簽的價格等等這些的議價……"],["蔡委員適應：價格或是採購速度、時程嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，會影響到，所以如果洩漏出去的話，比方它跟我們價格是一個，跟越南價格是一個，這就會互相去做比較，他們公司會受到一些壓力。"],["蔡委員適應：對，或者是說每個地方不同的價格，但是也有不同交貨的時程嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：這些事情其實在當下做判斷的時間是非常短暫的啦，我記得當時部長或行政院團隊在跟相關單位或者之前陳時中部長在做談判的過程當中，可能只有一、兩天的考慮時間。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，因為那個時候……"],["蔡委員適應：如果不談，廠商可能就下單給別的國家，別的國家可能用更好的價格去談了。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有錯。"],["陳院長建仁：很緊迫。"],["薛部長瑞元：很緊迫。"],["蔡委員適應：而且在這過程當中，我們對於其他國家採購疫苗的價格能夠知悉嗎？會知道嗎？其實也困難嘛，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：其他國家的……"],["薛部長瑞元：我們不知道。"],["陳院長建仁：我們完全不知道。"],["蔡委員適應：有困難嘛，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我也跟你報告一下，實際上是這樣的，這個疫苗的價格是完全要看什麼時候採購，譬如說我要是first priority、top priority去採購，當然我的價格就要高嘛，等到大量量產的時候去採購，價格當然就會低，而且這些廠商也都會考慮到不同國家的需要性，按照它的Per Capita GDP的情況來決定價格，所以價格的談判會牽涉到很多很多的因素。"],["蔡委員適應：所以院長講得很好，這個東西就要讓國人都瞭解，有人說價格是不是太貴或什麼，老實講，現在買最便宜，搞不好還買一送一，對不對？如果要這樣講的話，如果今天我是部長，我就會說好，告訴各位，我來採購更便宜的價格，明天找BNT或找哪家公司來買，它絕對賣的很便宜，但是在這個時間點就沒有這樣的需求嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：所以我認為有一些在野黨委員提出的是在張冠李戴、張飛打岳飛，拿宋朝或唐朝的兩個事情來做比較，然後再苛責院長跟部長這樣不對或這樣對，這完全是莫名其妙的一件事情。剛才部長和院長講得很清楚，這些相關的合約都有保密條款，能不能請部長或院長說明一下，這些保密條款分別是幾年，我想這是民眾非常關心的，我一個一個問，你告訴我就好了，第一個，大家最關心的就是高端合約的保密條款是幾年？"],["薛部長瑞元：5年。"],["蔡委員適應：5年是從2020年還是2021年開始算？"],["薛部長瑞元：最後交貨。"],["蔡委員適應：最後交貨起算5年，所以是去年再往後算，大概2027年左右，還是2028年？"],["薛部長瑞元：差不多116年。"],["蔡委員適應：116年也就是2027年，第一個，高端是5年，AZ是幾年？"],["薛部長瑞元：AZ也是5年。"],["蔡委員適應：AZ也是5年，所以一樣是從交貨最後一天開始算5年。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：另外，莫德納是幾年？"],["薛部長瑞元：莫德納不同意解密。"],["蔡委員適應：所以莫德納不同意解密？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，永遠不解密。"],["蔡委員適應：所以5年、6年後也是不能夠解密就對了？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：另外就是BNT呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：BNT是10年。"],["蔡委員適應：那我覺得很奇怪了，為什麼在野黨沒有質疑BNT？我再問部長一個問題，我不曉得能不能講，這幾個疫苗的採購單價最貴的是誰？"],["薛部長瑞元：單價最貴的，比高端貴的大概是莫德納、BNT。"],["蔡委員適應：這兩個更貴，對不對？怎麼沒有人質疑BNT這麼貴，為什麼政府沒有跟它砍價？感覺這些質疑的人好像沒有人提出這個質疑。"],["薛部長瑞元：這是一個很矛盾的說法沒有錯。"],["蔡委員適應：那些人可能跟BNT有勾結，是不是這樣？我不知道，如果要質疑的話，我也會質疑啊！當時有些人在push BNT，說BNT很好，他們是不是買了BNT的股票？BNT的股票、輝瑞的股票也是可以買，美國的股票就可以買了，這樣我是不是也可以質疑，請法務部調查一下臺灣有哪些人買了輝瑞的股票？這個邏輯不通吧！部長？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，沒有錯，當時預定要買莫德納、AZ等疫苗，我們在編列預算的時候都是用一劑700元編列預算，所以700元的緣由是這樣，但是後來買到的價格當然就不是700元，每一個都不一樣。"],["蔡委員適應：當然啊！因為每個廠商提供的資訊或研發成本，不然我們就是排隊等，就像等到現在買，我想一劑不用70元，就是這個差別，所以我想這要讓國人知道，在那個非常短暫的時間點，身為一個政府官員在做這個重要決策是非常困難的，怎麼儘量能夠保衛國人的健康，在預算的可行範圍內做這樣的決策，老實講，用現在的角度來看那個時間點，我覺得是非常苛責且沒有道理的，所以我剛才才會跟部長、院長講，如果要講，我也會講現在買更便宜，但現在沒有人需要。","另外，第二個問題要請教院長和部長，就是我們國家隊的問題，院長和部長知不知道1922已經停掉了？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該還有。"],["蔡委員適應：還有嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：還有。"],["蔡委員適應：現在打1922會通嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：會。"],["蔡委員適應：現在打1922會通，確定？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為那個是叫防疫專線，不是針對COVID。"],["陳院長建仁：不是針對COVID。"],["蔡委員適應：防疫專線還留著嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：有，還留著。"],["蔡委員適應：COVID的專線還留著嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：COVID當時就是用這一個專線。"],["蔡委員適應：就是用1922，當時有擴大，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：擴大的合約是不是結束了？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是結束了。"],["蔡委員適應：我知道結束了，現在有多少人接電話？"],["薛部長瑞元：這可能要問一下。"],["蔡委員適應：你們說還留著，但我知道是沒有了，也就是縮編成人很少了，我想請教一下院長跟部長，我為什麼問這件事情的原因是因為最近疫情是不是又起來了？"],["薛部長瑞元：最近是有疫情起來，但是不是只有COVID。"],["陳院長建仁：對，最近在中國大陸的疫情是比較嚴重，而且發現新的病毒株JN.1。"],["蔡委員適應：JN.1更嚴重，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：JN.1傳染的速度會比較快，但是最近我們國內採購XBB的COVID-19疫苗，實際上對它是相當的有效。"],["蔡委員適應：好，那我想請教一下院長，JN.1在臺灣目前有沒有發現案例了？有沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：目前有……"],["蔡委員適應：就是剛才院長提到的這些事情。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有擴散開來。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有擴散開來。"],["蔡委員適應：好，那這些案例應該都不是本地而是境外移入的？"],["陳院長建仁：我們現在篩檢的話……"],["薛部長瑞元：大概沒有辦法去做確定。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["蔡委員適應：有可能是本土的嗎？應該都是境外進來的吧？"],["陳院長建仁：對，JN.1的話應該是啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：目前我們邊境還有勸導來做篩檢，本土的……"],["蔡委員適應：對，我的意思就是想請教一下院長跟部長，因為有些國家，我也不要說是哪些國家，有些國家的疫情似乎有升溫的現象。"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["蔡委員適應：有這樣的升溫現象，對於這些國家來臺灣的飛機，我想請問一下院長，有沒有考慮要升高對其防疫、檢疫的等級？"],["陳院長建仁：我們目前也知道哪些國家的疫情狀況比較嚴重，所以疾病管制署已經有針對這些特定的國家，在進來的時候就會加強體溫的測量，還有加強對症狀的調查，如果有症狀或者體溫異常的時候，那我們就會勸他在機場馬上做篩檢，我們篩檢、檢驗的病原體數目有十幾種，我們目前發現，現在比較常見的、在比較高疫情的國家實際上主要是流行性感冒，還有COVID-19，但是所謂黴漿菌的那種情況，實際上我們檢驗到的並不多，政府有加強在監控相關的疫情。"],["蔡委員適應：剛才部長跟院長提到有新採購了XBB的疫苗，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：已經開始打了沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：有，已經開始打了。"],["蔡委員適應：是自費還是公費？"],["薛部長瑞元：公費。"],["蔡委員適應：那我建議一下，要不要未來在機場也直接設一個施打站？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們是在……"],["蔡委員適應：醫療院所嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：在研議當中，而且我們也已經將疫苗配送……"],["蔡委員適應：我的意思是說，可不可以請院長跟部長考慮一下？因為我剛剛聽起來，似乎境外的可能比例還滿高的。打這個疫苗有沒有什麼特別的要求？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟原來打的……"],["蔡委員適應：都一樣嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：是一樣。"],["蔡委員適應：我建議一下院長跟部長在機場設，為什麼？因為我們出國的人通常在飛機場要等一到二個小時以上，對不對？所以他們有那個時間，當天就設一個疫苗站在那邊，有很多人就會跑去打疫苗啦！比他跑去醫院打，我覺得更方便，這是第一個。第二件事情，出國回來進到臺灣的人，你跟他講可以先打一下疫苗啦！我覺得這兩件事情可以給院長跟部長考慮一下，擴大我們的施打範圍跟施打率啦！我覺得講這件事情遠比國民黨開AV的記者會還來得更重要才對啦！","好，但是在這邊我還是要拜託一下我們的院長跟部長，剛才我提到的1922防疫專線，以及第二件事情，就是地方基層醫療院所因為這件事情執行業務所衍生的費用，我要拜託院長跟部長，我覺得這是非常重要的一件事情，在過去這兩年的過程當中，我們看到1922專線確實發揮了穩定人心的功能而有其重要性，那我也遇到有打電話向行政院或衛福部在談這個事情的人，他有聊到另外一個重要的議題，就是他覺得好像行政院本身就沒有這樣一個專屬的客服電話，地方政府有1999，但是中央政府沒有啦！我知道當時有很多人關於政府的一些相關議題也都是透過1922詢問，比如說紓困等等的內容，為什麼呢？因為我遇到的這些人有跟我講，他們透過1922所詢問內容的準確度比他們打1999問地方政府來得更準，因為很多地方政府也搞不清楚狀況，就跟他說可能要問中央，什麼都推給中央就對了啦！然後好的就說是他的，不懂的時候就推給中央，就說中央宣導的不大夠，我們也不知道，你要問中央政府。每次地方政府都這樣講，我認為這個是非常不公平的一件事情，但是我認為沒關係，我們中央政府就扛起來，地方做不到，侯友宜做不到，我們來做啊！這就是我們跟他們不一樣的地方嘛！所以我建議對1922這樣一個系統的維持，是不是行政院來檢討一下，未來就做為常設性、中央政府的一個組織單位，關於紓困、疫苗等等，只要中央政府所管事務的內容，我覺得都可以讓民眾打電話來問，讓他們來瞭解，我相信對於解決民間的很多問題、民眾的質疑會很有幫助啦！否則院長、部長和我們在這邊講了老半天，如果只有1萬人看到，可能還有另外好幾百萬人沒有看到啊！他還是會對同樣的問題繼續來詢問，那他如果看到網路上不確實的言論，他就以為那是真的啊！所以我們就跟他說：不用！有問題就打1922問我們的行政院，這樣最準啊！所以我認為這是一個非常好的所謂解釋疑慮的管道，像剛才我們部長提到每個合約都有保密期限，高端最短耶！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：他們為什麼不要質疑BNT，我也覺得很奇怪，為什麼不要質疑莫德納，對不對？所以我的意思就是說，這些事情其實就是要講給民眾知道，所以我在這邊拜託一下院長，我的第二個問題就是我們的1922專線，還有基層醫療他們的相關工作費用，我覺得要來增加，因為這幾年我們可以看得到全球化的關係，整個醫療、疫情或者病毒的蔓延是非常跨國的，而且我們事實上有時候看不到這些疫苗，等到真的已經發生事情的時候，都是透過我們的醫療單位來做協力、來處理。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：部長，我建議這件事情要把它列為非常重要的重點，我相信醫師公會跟護理師公會還有藥師公會也有跟部長提過這個事情，好不好？這可以承諾吧！"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分當然分兩個，去（112）年在健保裡面已經有處理了。"],["蔡委員適應：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：未來的部分我們可以來研議。"],["蔡委員適應：一定要做哦！另外就是1922的部分，拜託院長想一下，要繼續擴大辦理，我覺得這對民眾來講是非常重要的一件事情。"],["陳院長建仁：好，防疫專線很重要。"],["蔡委員適應：好，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員。接下來請吳委員斯懷質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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AZ莫德納BNT還有高端我們都有簽這個採購的這個合約聯亞有沒有簽訂聯亞當時是因為他有參加這個臨床試驗所以應該也有嘛對不對也有簽但是那個簽的就是補助他的臨床試驗到臨床試驗而其失敗部長在旁邊我想請教一下當時您當時擔任的職位是市長政務市長市長來"},{"start":116.974,"end":132.004,"text":"政府次長我想請教一下這幾家簽訂合約的公司對不對齁都有沒有簽所謂的保密條款有都有有為什麼當然啊因為他裡面他有一個技術性的資料會在合約裡面是不是對"},{"start":133.53,"end":161.451,"text":"他要簽約的時候要給我們看那第二個就是有關於價格跟這個數量以及他的期程的部分的話他必須要做保密所以其實大多數跟我們政府簽訂的疫苗採購的合約商基於的剛才就是剛才部長你講的這幾個原則第一個是他的整個生產的配方第二個就是他的生產的提供交貨的數量以及交貨的流程"},{"start":162.182,"end":183.856,"text":"那我想請教一下部長就你的專業來判斷為什麼這幾件事情要把它保密起來因為這些東西如果洩漏出去的話第一個就是會妨礙他公司在跟其他國家簽的那個價格等等這些的價格或者是採購的速度嘛 時程嘛 對不對會影響到 所以"},{"start":188.567,"end":208.343,"text":"如果他洩露出去的話比方說他跟我們的價格是一個那跟越南的價格是一個這就互相去做比較那他們公司會受到一些壓力對 或者是說每個地方不同的價格但是也有不同的交貨的時程那這些事情其實在當下"},{"start":209.204,"end":233.544,"text":"在做判斷的時間其實是非常短暫的就是說當時我記得部長或者我們行政院的團隊在跟相關單位在做或者之前陳時中陳部長在做談判的過程當中可能你可能只有一兩天的考慮時間你如果不談廠商可能就下單給別的國家別的國家可能就去更好的價格去談了而且在這過程當中我們對於其他國家採購疫苗的價格能夠窒息嗎"},{"start":235.544,"end":260.645,"text":"你會知道嗎?其實也困難我們完全不知道也困難嘛委員我也跟你報告一下啦實際上是這樣這個疫苗的價格是完全要看他什麼時候採購比如說我要是first prioritytop priority去採購當然我的價格就要高嘛等我到大量量產的時候的採購當然就會低而且這些廠商也都會考慮到不同的國家的需要性按照他的"},{"start":261.087,"end":261.107,"text":"蔡適應"},{"start":278.231,"end":279.772,"text":"這完全是莫名其妙的一件事情"},{"start":308.846,"end":309.166,"text":"最後交貨"},{"start":332.321,"end":332.461,"text":"末德納幾年"},{"start":359.369,"end":383.639,"text":"莫德納他不同意解密所以莫德納不同意解密所以5年6年後也是不能夠解密就對了對好那另外就是BNT呢BNT10年BNT10年那我就很奇怪了為什麼在野黨沒有來質疑BNT啊好那我再問部長一問這幾個東西的採購啊我不曉得不能講啊單價最貴的是誰啊"},{"start":384.958,"end":407.74,"text":"當價最貴的就是比高端貴的大概就是莫德納、BNT這兩個都更貴嘛對不對那怎麼沒有人質疑說BNT這麼貴為什麼政府沒有跟他砍價感覺好像這些質疑的人好像沒有人提這個質疑是不是那些人那些人可能跟BNT有勾結囉是不是這樣子我不知道啊如果要質疑的話我也會質疑啊當時有些人在"},{"start":408.721,"end":423.258,"text":"有當時有些人在pushBNT說BNT很好是不是他們是買BNT的股票BNT股票輝瑞也是可以買阿美國的股票就可以買了阿那這樣我是不是可以來質疑說請法務部來調查一下台灣有哪一些人去買了輝瑞的股票"},{"start":424.999,"end":448.197,"text":"這個邏輯不同吧 部長對 沒有錯那當時在預定要買莫德納等等這一些AZ的時候的話我們在編列預算的時候都是用一計700塊去編列預算的所以那個700塊的緣由是這裡但是後來買到的價格當然就不是一樣因為每個廠商提供的"},{"start":449.437,"end":464.923,"text":"資訊或者他告訴他的研發成本或者不然就排隊等就像說等到現在買我想一季不用70塊吧就是這個差別所以我想這第一個要讓國人知道就是說在那個非常短暫的時間點做一個重要的政府官員在做決策是非常困難的"},{"start":466.518,"end":487.368,"text":"怎麼樣盡量能夠保衛住國人的健康然後做這樣的決策在預算的可行範圍內我老實講用現在的角度來看那個時間點我覺得是非常苛責沒有道理所以我剛才才會跟部長院長說如果要會講我也會講說現在買更便宜但現在沒有人需要好但是另外我有第二個問題要來請教一下院長跟部長我們的國家隊的問題院長跟部長1922已經停掉了應該還有"},{"start":496.475,"end":521.112,"text":"還有嗎 現在打1922會通嗎現在打1922會通 確定因為那個是叫防疫專線 不是針對COVID那防疫專線還留著嗎有 還留著那COVID的專線還留著嗎COVID當時就用這一個專線就用1922嘛 當時有擴大嘛 對不對擴大的合約是不是結束了應該是結束了對啊 我知道是結束 所以現在多少人接電話"},{"start":522.947,"end":533.295,"text":"如果這樣我請教一下,你們說海流罩,我知道是沒有啦就說邊人很少了啦齁我為什麼問這件事情的原因是因為我想請教一下院長跟部長齁最近疫情是不是又起來了"},{"start":534.538,"end":561.115,"text":"最近是有疫情起來但是不是只有COVID最近在中國道路的話這個疫情是比較嚴重而且發現新的這個病毒株叫做JN1更嚴重嘛 對不對那這個JN1它傳染的速度會比較快但是最近我們國內採購的XBB的這個COVID-19的疫苗實際上對它是相當的有效那我想請教一下院長"},{"start":563.209,"end":569.792,"text":"J1在臺灣目前有沒有發現案例?沒有擴散開來那這些案例應該都不是本土還是境外移入的?"},{"start":576.728,"end":578.31,"text":"有些國家的疫情似乎又升溫的現象"},{"start":600.962,"end":623.188,"text":"這樣的生活現象對於這些國家來台灣的飛機我想請問一下院長有沒有考慮要升高他的防疫檢疫的等級我們目前的話也是知道哪一些國家呢他的疫情的狀況比較嚴重所以呢疾病管制署呢已經針對著這些特定的國家呢進來的時候呢就會加強這個體溫的測量還有加強這個症狀的"},{"start":625.047,"end":625.067,"text":"臨時會議員：蔡適應"},{"start":645.742,"end":649.264,"text":"因為剛才部長跟院長提到說有新採購了XBB的疫苗對不對對已經開始打了沒有有 有已經開始打"},{"start":674.204,"end":702.622,"text":"自費還是公費公費好那我建議一下齁要不要未來在機場也直接設一個施打站我們是在醫療院所嘛對不對研議大廚阿而且我們也已經那個疫苗配送我的意思是說可不可以請院長跟部長考慮一下啦齁因為我剛剛聽起來似乎境外的可能比例還蠻高的啦齁打這個疫苗有沒有什麼特別的要求阿跟原來打的都一樣嘛對不對齁是一樣我會建議一下院長跟部長齁"},{"start":703.786,"end":724.703,"text":"在機場設啦為什麼齁 我們出國的人通常在飛機場要等1到2個小時以上對不對 有那個時間齁當天就設一個疫苗站在那邊很多人都會跑去打疫苗啦比他跑去醫院打我覺得更方便 這第一個第二件事情 出國回來進來台灣的人你跟他講可以先打一下疫苗啦"},{"start":725.74,"end":754.064,"text":"我覺得這兩件事情可以給院長跟部長考慮一下擴大我們的施打範圍跟施打率我覺得講這件事情比原比講那個什麼該國民黨開記者會AB的記者會來得更重要才對好那但是在這邊我還是要拜託一下我們的院長跟部長剛才我提到的1922的防疫專線以及第二件事情地方基層醫療院所因為這件事情執行業務衍生的費用我要拜託院長跟部長我覺得這是非常重要的一件事情"},{"start":756.039,"end":779.831,"text":"過去這兩年的過程當中我們看到1922的專線確實發揮了穩定人心的一個重要性那我也遇到打電話有去打電話像行政院或衛福在談的事情的人他有聊到另外一個重要議題就是說他覺得好像行政院本身就沒有一個專屬的這樣的一個客服的電話地方政府有1999但中央政府沒有"},{"start":781.155,"end":799.353,"text":"中央政府沒有所以我知道說當時在1922打這件事有很多人關於政府的一些相關的議題也都透過1922詢問比如說紓困等等的內容等等為什麼呢因為我遇到這些人有跟我講說他們透過1922詢問的內容的準確度比他們問1999地方政府來得更準"},{"start":800.441,"end":820.525,"text":"因為很多地方政府也搞不清楚狀況就跟他說你可能要問中央什麼都推給中央就對了然後好的就說是他的不懂的說推給中央就說中央宣導的不大夠我們也不知道你要問中央政府每次都跟地方政府這樣講我認為這個是非常不公平的一件事情但我認為沒關係中央政府我們就扛起來"},{"start":821.304,"end":830.689,"text":"等行政院院長提出:「是否公布高端合約．是否公布高端合約．是否公布高端合約．是否公布高端合約．是否公布高端合約．是否公布高端合約．是否公布高端合約．是否公布高端合約．"},{"start":844.977,"end":862.732,"text":"我相信對於解決民間的很多問題民眾的質疑會很有幫助啦否則部長部長我們這邊講了老半天如果看的人只有一萬人看到可能還有另外的好幾百萬人沒有看到啊他還是會同樣的問題繼續來詢問那他如果看到網路上不確實的言論他就以為那是真的啊我們剛剛說不用"},{"start":863.516,"end":881.793,"text":"有問題打1922問我們的行政院最準啊所以我認為這是一個非常好一個所謂解釋疑慮的一個管道像剛才我們部長提到的每個合約都有保密期限高端最短欸他們為什麼不要質疑BNT啊我也覺得很奇怪為什麼不要質疑莫德納"},{"start":882.788,"end":909.553,"text":"對不對 所以我的意思就是說這些事情其實就是要講給民眾知道所以我在這邊拜託一下院長我第二個問題就是說我們的1922專線還有第二個就是醫療基層醫療他們的相關的一個工作的費用我覺得要來增加啦因為這幾年我們可以看得到全球化的關係整個醫療或者疫情或者病毒的蔓延是非常跨國的啦而且我們事實上有時候看不到啊"},{"start":910.086,"end":913.128,"text":"這件事要列為非常重要的重點我相信醫師公會跟護理師公會也有跟還有藥師公會也有跟部長提過這個事情好不好"},{"start":951.96,"end":953.608,"text":"好 謝謝蔡委員接下來請吳委員施懷質詢"}]}},{"id":"149083","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149083","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee689e472d92542a4cc1c826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b502b845617e607d9b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:14:17 - 11:30:15","影片長度":"00:15:58","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":958,"end_time":"2024-01-09T11:30:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T11:14:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":845,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時14分）謝謝主席。我想請我們陳院長還有衛福部薛部長。"],["主席：陳院長。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有法務部蔡部長"],["主席：蔡部長。"],["王委員鴻薇：以及金管會黃主委。"],["陳院長建仁：王委員早安。"],["王委員鴻薇：早安。先請教院長，剛才您回答邱泰源委員的時候，你有特別提到那兩個市長在疫情的時間沒有做好，請問一下，你所指的兩位市長是指哪兩位？"],["陳院長建仁：當然就是臺北市的市長跟新北市的市長，在當時萬華地區老人茶室產生散播的情況……"],["王委員鴻薇：你認為萬華是破口嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：最主要的情況在當時的這個事件一發生的時候，我們要……"],["王委員鴻薇：你剛才講的是臺北市市長跟新北市市長？"],["陳院長建仁：當然是……"],["王委員鴻薇：就是講柯文哲和侯友宜，是吧？"],["陳院長建仁：是啊，當時是他們在當市長。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為在之前幾個答詢裡面院長認為今天臨時會跟選舉有關，但是在這個場合，院長特別針對另外兩位現在的總統候選人做指控，我覺得這是行政不中立，其實我覺得我們在這裡應該就事論事……"],["陳院長建仁：我是就事論事……"],["王委員鴻薇：如果你的標準是一致的……"],["陳院長建仁：我在講防疫的結果、防疫的效果不好。"],["王委員鴻薇：你在這個時候去攻擊另外兩位非執政黨的候選人……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有攻擊，我講的是事實。"],["王委員鴻薇：這代表你行政不中立。"],["陳院長建仁：我講的是事實，委員我可以回答嗎？"],["王委員鴻薇：隨便啊！你不用再回答，我就是要指控，我認為你行政不中立。"],["陳院長建仁：當時2021年的時候……"],["王委員鴻薇：你不要浪費我的時間……"],["陳院長建仁：在整個臺北、新北市有一個很大的流行產生……"],["王委員鴻薇：主席，我可不可以質詢？可以嘛！","因為這個問題滿重要，剛才我也有注意到賴士葆委員也特別提到高端的合約能不能公開，因為我們現在的說法是這是廠商要求，那麼廠商沒有同意……"],["陳院長建仁：不是廠商要求，委員您講錯了，不是廠商要求。"],["王委員鴻薇：這跟我們王必勝署長的講法可能不一樣，說要股東會、董事會，但是不管，政府的說法是因為這是要看高端，也就是廠商願不願意同意。"],["陳院長建仁：我們簽了保密協約、保密條款。"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道，你們講過很多次。但是在110年5月30號，因為高端是上櫃公司，它發表重訊提到有關限制條款是依採購機關要求，合約其他細節不予公開。剛才賴士葆委員有特別問到這件事情，對不對？薛部長的回答是它要怎麼講，它也沒有問過我們政府，所以，我請問部長，它這個說法是正確的還是錯誤的？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，我們沒有要求他不公開，應該是依照合約不公開。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以他是依照採購機關要求，採購機關一定是衛福部。"],["薛部長瑞元：不是，採購機關沒有要求，是依照合約。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以部長很明確地告訴我們，這個重訊的訊息是錯誤的，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：可以這麼說，因為是依照合約。"],["王委員鴻薇：那請教部長，因為我剛剛特別提到他的重訊時間是民國110年5月30號，已經長達2年半，就這樣錯誤的訊息，請問衛福部是否曾經要求它更正，或是曾經去告它，說它這個根本是錯誤的訊息？衛福部有沒有做這件事情？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們在那之後，就有發文給高端，請它考慮公開合約。"],["王委員鴻薇：不是，你這是兩碼事，我說它這個錯誤的資訊，你們有去告它嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：它的重訊要怎麼公布，或者是否有錯，並不是衛福部要去管理的，這不在我們的權責……"],["王委員鴻薇：可是衛福部是採購機關……"],["薛部長瑞元：那跟這個無關……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我的問題是……"],["薛部長瑞元：這跟重訊的發布無關。"],["王委員鴻薇：既然這個訊息是錯誤的，為什麼衛福部在這麼長的時間裡面沒有去告它？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為這不是我們的權責。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，你都去告立委了！你都去告立委了！"],["薛部長瑞元：那是兩件不一樣的事！"],["王委員鴻薇：你為什麼不告高端？是不敢告嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我為什麼要去告高端？因為那個不是我們的權責。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個就是錯誤訊息啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：錯誤訊息由主管機關去處理。"],["王委員鴻薇：無所謂？好，我為什麼把金管會主委找來，所以你不敢告高端，現在就請問主管機關，請問一下金管會主委，這樣的錯誤訊息，我們有去處罰它嗎？有去處分它嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：它發布的重訊是依照上櫃公司重訊發布辦法去做的，內容由櫃買中心那邊或當事人去做一個確認。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以在我今天的質詢裡面，衛福部長說這個訊息是錯誤的，但是衛福部不去告它，金管會會處理嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：當時並沒有特別人指出，所以櫃買中心……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我現在直接問，現在金管會會立刻去處理，讓證交所去罰它嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想我們會請櫃買中心再去瞭解當時它發布的背景，剛才我也跟賴委員這樣報告。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以包含衛福部、金管會，針對這個嚴重影響、嚴重損害政府威信的重訊，竟然不聞不問，竟然不敢告高端？好，時間暫停一下，我請問一下法務部長。部長，為什麼要請您上來？我認為高端的合約已經引起這麼嚴重的爭議，舉國都覺得為什麼不公開？連我們的副總統賴清德、民進黨的總統候選人都覺得應該公開啊！可是整個行政院把賴副總統的話當成空氣，從他講完到現在，今天已經第10天了，到現在為止沒有公開，就算我們開臨時會還是不公開！我覺得非常不解，到底在怕高端什麼？連這種錯誤且損害政府威信的訊息也沒有人處理！既然部長你在這邊，我直接要求法務部調查衛福部有沒有瀆職！兩年半了，它說之所以不能公開，是政府、採購機關要求不能公開；但衛福部長說這完全是錯誤的！即使是完全錯誤的，卻也不理不睬，這不是嚴重瀆職嗎？所以我要求法務部長、法務部立刻調查衛福部，包含衛福部長，還有疾管署有沒有瀆職的問題？"],["薛部長瑞元：王委員，你要不要去告？"],["王委員鴻薇：等一下，我現在在問部長……"],["蔡部長清祥：這不是法務部的職責。對於有沒有涉及刑事責任是由檢調機關來負責，而法務部是負責行政業務。我知道過去檢察機關曾經調查過，相關案件有63件之多……"],["王委員鴻薇：報告我都看到了，都查無不法等等。但我現在有新事證，我現在有新事證，我一樣請地檢署來偵辦。我真的覺得很奇怪，為什麼政府對高端這樣莫可奈何？到底在怕高端什麼？我剛剛講，薛瑞元部長都敢告立委了，為什麼不告高端？我要是你的話，我立刻告高端亂講話！怎麼說是我不讓你公開？明明是你高端說不能公開的？","高端昨天又發布重訊，敝人在下我也在裡面。它說它要告我跟另外的3位候選人講的股東名冊問題。我時間有限，今天就不請經濟部長上來了。真的笑死人了，你們不要天天怕高端，因為高端只會濫訴！所謂的股東名冊，去查一下銀行法第二百十條，清清楚楚告訴你股東名冊可以怎麼取得，搞不好蔡部長是清楚的。對於高端這樣不敢公開，只會濫訴的一家公司，然後我們任它予取予求？所以我在想，高端到底是何方神聖？我想請問陳院長，在2016年您跟蔡英文總統搭檔，那時候你是副總統候選人，您有收受過高端、高端股東，或高端之前的前公司、前身等等的政治獻金嗎？有嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我只是參加高端的臨床實驗而已。"],["王委員鴻薇：你沒有，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：我在這邊也幫你背書，我查過了，您沒有。我剛剛講過，高端的股東名冊並不難取得，根據相關法律是可以取得的。這是之前侯漢廷議員所公布的高端股東捐款名單，大概所有政治人物都在內。我剛才說我幫陳建仁院長背書，我們查過了，2016年您是副總統候選人，那一次你們沒有接受過高端的任何政治獻金；但在2020年，蔡英文總統、賴清德副總統就有接受到高端股東的政治捐獻。可以看看這裡面洋洋灑灑，包含縣市長、包含立法委員……"],["陳院長建仁：委員、委員……"],["王委員鴻薇：包含議員！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，高端股東有四萬多人，這四萬多人再怎麼去找，還是會找到有一些願意做政治獻金的人，你這樣單挑高端股東來講，我覺得是不公平！"],["王委員鴻薇：就是剛才部長跟您咬耳朵……"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！他告訴我……"],["王委員鴻薇：我要講的是……"],["陳院長建仁：他告訴我高端股東有四萬多人啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：我要講的是，我不解的是為什麼今天我們都召開臨時會了，召開臨時會是正確的，雖然過幾天馬上確實就有大選，但是在立法院召開臨時會本來就是一個民主國家、民主政治的程序，然後我們所有的立法委員，比如像邱泰源委員覺得他非常珍惜今天的質詢，我看了也非常感動，大家想利用這一次臨時會把一些大家想要釐清的事情或者最近發生的事情來請教我們的行政單位，但是為什麼到今天仍然不敢公布高端的採購合約？說實在的，我真的覺得我也為賴清德不值啊！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我可以回答嗎？"],["王委員鴻薇：好，您說一下，我時間不多了。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我剛才在報告的時候你沒有來，所以你沒有聽到我的報告……"],["王委員鴻薇：但是這個報告我都看過了！"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你剛才講的，包含部長講的都在裡面了！"],["陳院長建仁：既然你看過報告，你就曉得因為我們跟高端簽有保密的協定……"],["王委員鴻薇：那不用看今天的報告，前幾天你們就在講了！"],["陳院長建仁：在保密協定裡面，我們政府是簽約的一方，當然就要遵守簽約者的義務嘛，所以維持政府的誠信是相當重要，如果政府的誠信一旦沒有辦法維護，未來政府要採購相關的疫苗、藥物等等的時候……"],["王委員鴻薇：政府誠信很重要，……"],["陳院長建仁：其他的公司就……"],["王委員鴻薇：院長，政府誠信很重要，但是政府的威信也很重要，我剛才特別提……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯，所以政府的威信我們有跟高端講……"],["王委員鴻薇：對不起喔，我剩一點點時間……"],["陳院長建仁：我跟高端講，希望高端能夠來公開這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：不要怕高端啦，這家公司……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有怕它！"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼要讓它予取予求？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有讓它予取予求！"],["王委員鴻薇：我現在換另外一個題目……"],["陳院長建仁：你如果這樣講，你如果這樣兇，我就不同意了！我沒有給它予取予求！"],["王委員鴻薇：我不需要你同意啊！院長。","好，我現在另外要請教一下法務部長，請將時間暫停一下，然後薛部長和金管會主委可以先請回，謝謝，也不好意思讓你們罰站。","法務部長，我想請教一下，之前我們的行政院副院長──鄭文燦副院長，有涉及他、影射他的帶女人開房間的影片外流，我們也在司法及法制委員會裡面討論過，我想請問這個案子結案了嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：應該還沒有，因為在檢察機關偵查中。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，它是偵查中案件，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是呢，鄭文燦的那個影片，後來刑事局有整個的檢驗結果說是不是深偽製作，對不對？有沒有公布？"],["蔡部長清祥：還包括調查局也有做鑑定，所以他們二個偵查單位也是有把成果報到地檢署。"],["王委員鴻薇：都公布了，因為那時候也對我們公布說有二個系統，一個61%說可能有深偽，一個說沒有深偽製作，所以它說不能確定有深偽製作的可能，是用這樣的一個話，當然我們很多翻譯大白話就代表它不是偽造的。但是無論如何，鄭文燦影片的檢驗結果是公布了，剛才部長也說這是偵查中案件。同樣的，今天我們立委羅致政委員涉及性愛的影片，事實上調查局現在已經完成了檢驗，可是地檢署、調查局說這是偵查中案件，不能公布，為什麼同樣一件事，鄭文燦的要公布，然後羅致政的不公布？這是什麼標準？"],["蔡部長清祥：都沒有公布，都沒有正式的對外公布……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，你失憶了！"],["蔡部長清祥：如果在檢察官的偵查當中，檢察官會受到偵查不公開原則……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長失憶了嗎？鄭文燦那個公布了啦！鄭文燦那個已經公布了。"],["蔡部長清祥：我不曉得是哪一個單位公布的，但是檢察機關絕對沒有公布。"],["王委員鴻薇：鄭文燦自己都公布了，他自己都公布了，所以我要講的是……"],["蔡部長清祥：我不曉得他怎麼得來的訊息。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我一再講說，國家有國家的制度，如果鄭文燦的影片也是偵查中案件，但他可以公布，為什麼羅致政的影片要說是偵查中案件不公開，這個就有隱瞞的問題，所以我們非常擔心這個影片是不是不能公布，怕影響羅致政的選情啦，但是我還是很希望不要因為任何一個候選人，而去破壞了我們整個國家的制度，好不好？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們會遵守偵查不公開的原則。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝王委員。","接下來請蔡委員適應質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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我可不可以質詢 可以嗎 來"},{"start":127.683,"end":151.975,"text":"因為這個問題蠻重要因為剛才我也有注意到我們賴世保委員也特別提到了也就是高端的合約能不能公開那麼因為我們現在的說法是因為這是廠商要求那麼廠商沒有同意那可能包含院長跟我們那個王必勝署長可能講法不一樣說要股東會董事會好不管"},{"start":153.035,"end":163.083,"text":"我們政府的說法是因為這是要看高端就是廠商願不願意同意但是在110年5月30號"},{"start":169.187,"end":195.267,"text":"因為高端是上匯公司他發表重訊提到說有關於限制條款是依採購機關要求合約其他細節不予公開剛才賴世寶委員有特別問到這件事情對不對那薛部長的回答是說他要怎麼講他也沒有問過我們政府所以部長我請問他這個說法是正確的還是錯誤的"},{"start":197.386,"end":198.987,"text":"所以部長很明確的告訴我們這個重訊的訊息是錯誤的是不是"},{"start":223.131,"end":226.454,"text":"請教因為我剛特別提到他的重訓時間是民國110年5月30號已經長達兩年半這樣錯誤的訊息請問一下"},{"start":239.207,"end":255.666,"text":"我們的衛福部是否曾經要求他更動：或者曾經去告他說你這個根本是錯誤的訊息衛福部有沒有做這些事我們在那個之後就發文給這個高端請他來公開合約"},{"start":256.867,"end":257.888,"text":"跟重訊的發布無關"},{"start":279.158,"end":294.175,"text":"既然這個訊息是錯誤的,為什麼衛福部在這麼長的時間裡面沒有去告高端?你都去告立委了,你為什麼不告高端?不敢告嗎?"},{"start":298.9,"end":315.607,"text":"這個就是錯誤訊息啊他錯誤訊息有主管機關去處理無所謂好來來來為什麼把金管會主委找來了所以你把你不敢告高端現在請那個主管機關那請問一下我們金管會主委這樣錯誤訊息我們有去處罰他嗎有去處分他嗎"},{"start":316.596,"end":321.417,"text":"那所以我今天在這個質詢裡面衛福部長說這個是錯誤的但是衛福部不去告他金管會會處理嗎當時並沒有特別人指出當時所以貴買中心對我現在直接說那現在金管會會立刻去處理嗎讓證交所去罰他"},{"start":345.967,"end":346.127,"text":"為什麼要請您上來?"},{"start":373.715,"end":398.528,"text":"我就認為在高端的合約已經引起這麼嚴重的爭議那麼大家舉國都在覺得說為什麼不公開連賴清德現在我們的副總統我們的民進黨的總統候選人都說他覺得應該公開啊可是現在呢我們整個行政院把賴副總統的話當成空氣一樣他現在講完今天已經第10天了"},{"start":399.548,"end":400.048,"text":"王鴻薇議員王鴻薇議員"},{"start":423.303,"end":424.604,"text":"王委員 你要不要去告"},{"start":449.533,"end":477.185,"text":"這個不是法務部的職責對於有沒有涉及刑事責任是由檢調機關他們來負責所以法務部是負責行政業務那過去我知道的檢查機關也曾經調查過相關的案件有63件之多報告我都看到了說都查無不法等等所以我現在有新的事證我現在有新的事證那麼我也會也一樣請那個"},{"start":478.805,"end":502.731,"text":"地檢署來查偵辦我真的覺得很奇怪我們政府為什麼對高端這樣的莫可奈何到底在怕高端什麼所以我剛剛講我們薛淵源部長都敢告立委為什麼不告高端我是你我立刻告高端亂講話怎麼說是我不讓你公開明明是你高端說不能公開好再來看一下看一下時間"},{"start":505.558,"end":527.213,"text":"高端昨天也又發布重訊 裡面畢仁在下我 也在裡面他說他要提告我 提告我跟另外三位候選人說談到有股東名冊的問題我時間有限 我今天就不請經濟部長上來 我覺得真的笑死人"},{"start":528.447,"end":544.58,"text":"你們不要天天怕高端高端只會爛數股東名冊去查一下銀行法銀行法裡面210條清清楚楚的告訴你股東名冊可以怎麼取得我想搞不好蔡部長是清楚的"},{"start":545.6,"end":569.166,"text":"所以對於高端這樣不敢公開只會濫訴的一家公司然後呢我們對他予取予求所以我就在想你高端到底是何方神聖那我想請問一下我們陳部長部長你當時在2016年的時候您有跟蔡英文總統搭檔那時候你是副總統候選人"},{"start":570.586,"end":592.16,"text":"您有收受過高端或高端股東或高端他們之前的前公司前身等等的政治獻金嗎有嗎沒有啊我根本我只是參加高端的臨床實驗而已你沒有嘛對不對沒有我在這邊也幫你背書我查過了您沒有但是啊來看一下我剛才講"},{"start":596.892,"end":618.388,"text":"高端的股東名冊並不難取得根據相關的法律是可以取得這個是之前侯漢廷議員所公布的相關的高端股東的捐款這個大概就是所有政治人物所以我剛才說我幫陳建仁院長也背書我們查過了"},{"start":622.911,"end":642.778,"text":"當時2016年您參加副總統是候選人那一次你們沒有接受過高端的任何的政治獻金但是在2020年蔡英文總統賴清德副總統就有接受到高端股東的政治捐獻可以看看這裡面洋洋灑灑"},{"start":644.618,"end":667.318,"text":"這裡面包含縣市長 包含立法委員 包含議員高端股東有4萬多人你這4萬多人你再怎麼去找還是找到有一些願意做政治獻金的人你這樣單挑高端股東這樣來講我覺得是不公平這是剛才部長跟你搖耳朵我要講的是我不解的是為什麼今天我們都召開臨時會了"},{"start":669.119,"end":690.892,"text":"召開臨時會是正確的雖然馬上過幾天確實就有大選但是在立法院召開臨時會這本來就是一個民主國家民主政治的程序然後我們所有的立法委員比如像邱太元委員他覺得他非常珍惜今天的質詢我看了也非常感動"},{"start":691.812,"end":692.372,"text":"我可以回答嗎?"},{"start":712.657,"end":712.797,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":729.771,"end":731.993,"text":"政府誠信很重要但是政府的威信也很重要我剛才特別提"},{"start":756.032,"end":772.649,"text":"所以政府的微信我們有跟高端講我跟高端講希望高端能夠來公開沒有怕高端啦這家公司沒有怕他為什麼要讓他予取予求沒有讓他予取予求你如果這樣講我就你如果這樣兇我就不同意了"},{"start":773.029,"end":773.129,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":794.033,"end":809.11,"text":"法務部長我想請教一下在之前我們的行政院副院長鄭文燦副院長他有涉及他影射他的帶女人開房間的影片外流我們也在司法法治委員會裡面討論過我想請問這個案子結案了嗎"},{"start":813.168,"end":838.867,"text":"應該還沒有 因為在檢察機關偵查中是 他是偵查中案件 對不對對那但是呢鄭文燦那個影片後來刑事局他有他的整個的檢驗結果說是不是身為製作 對不對有沒有公布還包括調查局也有他做鑑定所以他們兩個偵查單位他們也是把成果有報到地檢署"},{"start":839.697,"end":839.777,"text":"同樣的"},{"start":869.48,"end":891.771,"text":"今天我們立委羅智政委員他的涉及性愛影片現在事實上調查局已經完成了檢驗可是呢地檢署調查局說這是偵查中案件不能公布那為什麼同樣鄭文燦要公布然後羅智政不公布這是什麼標準"},{"start":893.291,"end":901.427,"text":"都沒有公布,都沒有正式的對外公布,如果在檢察官的偵查當中,檢察官他會受到偵查不公開的檢查"},{"start":904.321,"end":928.963,"text":"鄭文燦自己都公布了他自己都公布了所以我要講的是所以我一直在講說國家有國家的制度所以如果今天鄭文燦的影片他也是偵查中案件他可以公布為什麼羅志政的影片要以說偵查中案件不公開那這個就有隱瞞的問題"},{"start":939.332,"end":939.873,"text":"王鴻薇"}]}},{"id":"149082","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149082","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee689f3af65991490ce39826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b501dd0c2f14099b89b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱泰源","委員發言時間":"10:59:13 - 11:14:08","影片長度":"00:14:55","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":895,"end_time":"2024-01-09T11:14:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T10:59:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":822,"blocks":[["邱委員泰源：（10時58分）好，謝謝。有請陳院長。"],["主席：院長請。"],["邱委員泰源：院長好。"],["陳院長建仁：邱委員早。"],["邱委員泰源：我想在這三、四年來，臺灣的防疫非常地成功，在各界還有全民的配合、支持下，可以說是達到了一個……我在2021年5月的時候，曾經寫一篇文章刊登在Taiwan News，讓世界知道我們臺灣將會創造一個光榮的時刻。"],["陳院長建仁：確實是。"],["邱委員泰源：接下來，在政府的領導之下、全民的努力之下，我們做到了！我站在醫界的立場，必須要來肯定我們全國醫療同仁過去的努力，以及政府怎麼樣來跟醫界合作的，很簡單地跟院長、跟大家說明一下。首先，我們非常感謝蔡總統，在防疫的工作裡面一直支持我們，不管我們有什麼需求，只要跟總統講，他其實都會盡全力來努力。我們也感謝陳副總統當時領導建立一個非常溫馨、智慧、有專業的防疫模式，其實是帶領我們醫界走向堅定醫療核心價值，以及站在人民需求的立場上來創造一個更好的醫療防疫能力。在這幾年防疫當中，我們也真的非常感謝賴副總統，其實他一直深深地以他醫師的專業、以他過去的經驗在指導我們醫界，甚至也多次到我們醫師公會這邊來做現場的互動、指導，如果有任何的需要或者他想到要指導我們什麼的話，其實我們是溝通無礙，所以在防疫的過程當中賴副總統對我們醫界貢獻是非常的大。當然行政團隊在蘇院長的領導之下，我很多很多的好朋友都是疫情專家、都投入，深深地日以繼夜在為防疫工作，我在這邊也特別用醫界的立場來感謝他們的投入。","當然因為醫界總是臺灣珍貴的資產，過去百年來就是一直守護人民的健康，一開始還有SARS的經驗，SARS在我們陳建仁老師還有很多前輩的指導之下，醫界學到很好的經驗，所以一開始的時候我們醫界就很擔心，就立志說不能有任何的醫護人員再受到傷害，相對地就不能有人民受到傷害，所以我們基本上全國24縣市的醫師公會可以說是全部日以繼夜在做防疫的工作以外，大概每一個禮拜我們都會開一個全國性的醫界會議，然後來配合政府的政策，把它落實到所有全國各鄉鎮的任何一個角落，有疫情、有狀況，我們在社區就給它守住最好的一個防疫陣線。譬如說我們人員在醫院比較緊迫的時候，我們可以看下面的部分，其實我們也發動了全國的醫師，也是在總統的指導之下，基層醫師都出來拼，OK，因為醫院人力緊繃，還有很多重症需要治療，所以我們就動員了四大方向，包括請耳鼻喉科醫學會指導全國來做篩檢的工作。當然因為人心會需要穩定，除了我的老師陳建仁院長給我們全國很大的心靈支持以外，我們也要給他們做身心壓力的照護，這個我們請精神醫學會來幫忙。另外，在社區還是很多預防保健、急慢性疾病的管理、居家及安寧等等的照護，其實我們也請家庭醫學會動員來指導我們跟基層醫師來做。最後就是社區打疫苗的事情，我們請兒科醫學會來做，他們比較會打疫苗，所以這樣動員萬名的基層醫療這樣做，過程當中也感謝我們陳建仁老師在這樣的一個工作裡面給我們最大的支持。","後續我們也完成了六大任務，不管是PCR的採檢，還有遠距的診療，大家應該知道，當臺北市在疫情緊繃的時候，一天有一萬個感染者，這一萬多只要有二十分之一跑到醫院去，醫院急診就崩潰了，但是我們政府有一個很好的政策，就是居家的醫療、視訊的醫療，可以讓得病的人、染疫的人能夠在家裡，我們用視訊給他用家庭醫師的方式，小孩子發燒家屬也不用把小孩子帶到急診，可以在家裡得到很安心的照護，每天一萬個病人這樣守下了，這是臺灣的奇蹟，我想也是世界的典範。當然在疫苗接種其實也感謝全部的政府高層，在互動當中他們都很支持、很鼓勵基層社區來做，所以克服了很多的困難，讓社區診所來打疫苗，打不到幾個月，大概有70%的疫苗是在社區打，民眾也得到方便，我想這個部分也是當時陳建仁教授給我們最大的一個鼓勵跟用文獻來呈現。","當然這樣的成果我們不只有在國內守住，我們也要分享給世界各國，剛好我們臺灣醫師會跟世界醫師會互動非常好，所以我們的專家把臺灣很多的經驗也分享到世界各國，所以世界醫師會更加肯定臺灣過去醫療的水準，甚至防疫的水準都是一流的，更加的堅定支持臺灣一定要參與WHO的活動，所以大家的防疫成果其實是幫臺灣打下了很多的江山。","我也曾經在2021擔任亞大19個國家醫師會的總會長，也把我們的經驗分享給亞洲19個國家，讓他們能夠防疫的更好，亞太的安全當然是大家努力的。同時在2021年9月在臺灣開的CMAAO大會裡面，我們把過去大家努力的經驗、心血，呈現在「台北宣言」中發表在國際間，最近也得到世界醫師會（WMA）肯定，其實世界醫師會跟WHO是相關的，要我們把它正式再revise變成世界級的，我想這都是政府、民間還有各個專業團體，大家一起努力貢獻的一個結果。請問院長，對前面這些工作，要不要跟我們醫療團隊講幾句話？"],["陳院長建仁：我想臺灣過去2020年開始，連續3、4年的期間，我們真的要謝謝邱泰源委員，還有我們醫師公會，甚至全國防疫、醫療第一線工作同仁們的辛勞。大家的努力確實使得臺灣的防疫做到很好，我在這裡要謝謝所有的醫師，大家不管是在我們的篩檢也好，預防接種也好，或者是遠距醫療也好，都扮演一個很關鍵性的角色。實際上，我也要謝謝2,300萬臺灣的無名英雄，每一個人民在中央流行疫情指揮中心公開透明的記者會之下，因為取得了全民的公信力，大家也都願意遵照流行指揮中心的建議來做好防疫的措施，我們疫調做得很棒，還有居家隔離、居家檢疫，所以以全世界來說，我們在2020年跟2021年是享受最好的成果，我們COVID-19死亡率跟發生率也都是最低，而且超額死亡率也是最低。所以在整個過程當中，醫師們還有護理人員們、所有的防疫人員，大家確實做得很好。","但是在這一段期間，我們也看到臺灣不幸的在屏東有Delta變異株，但是屏東我們就壓抑得很好，可是我們發現在新北市跟北市，因為有所謂萬華事件的關係，所以疫情曾經告急。在這樣的一個情況下，也幸好我們新北市跟臺北市的醫師們，大家都積極努力做好疫調、做好相關的醫療照顧。我記得當時這兩個市的市長還說我們來封城好了，我們沒有辦法做疫調啦，沒有辦法做好，在那樣的一個情況下，完全束手無策要放棄原來防疫的措施，幸好我們所有的醫事人員還有第一線的防疫人員，大家很積極地去做好這個工作。結果我們把Alpha這一個疫情也控制住，全世界都大為驚艷，在當時我們接種率很低的情況下，就是靠著很好的精準疫調、精準篩檢、精準的居家隔離跟居家檢疫，做到這麼好，能夠做得這麼好，醫師們扮演一個很重要的角色，也是全民大家很努力。所以這兩個市長連防疫的工作都沒有辦法做好，實在令我們覺得沒有辦法帶動很好的城市防疫工作，幸好有你們，謝謝。"],["邱委員泰源：謝謝院長、陳老師的鼓勵，以及對全國醫療團隊，還有所有防疫的工作等等再度的鼓勵，其實這些成功是其來有自啦！當然這個努力我也要感謝我們薛瑞元部長在過去幾年當中，在次長的任內跟我們醫界攜手合作，我們到哪裡，他就到哪裡，一樣來做防疫的工作，在這邊特別感謝我們薛部長。","我要講的就是前面的努力其實植基於臺灣的珍貴，所以臺灣應該要更加的和諧、更加的互相攜手，把過去大家所累積的努力，老幹新枝傳承好，繼續守護臺灣。像我剛剛的這個圖，其實是我們臺灣百年以來，醫者就是有關懷人民跟社會的情懷，我也記得我的老師，臺大醫學院前院長謝博生教授，其實我這30年來，不管在醫師公會或者是在立法院，我都跟隨他的理念，他是一個不求名利，只求臺灣好的人，在過去他也跟陳建仁教授有非常多的合作，推動很多很多到現在都還是非常重要的一個工作，所以其實我也都在跟隨他。因為我也是臺大的老師，所以我們也訓練了很多很多優秀、專業的醫療專業同仁，他們都有悲天憫人的情懷，臺灣就是有這樣的資產，我們大家未來可以珍惜、守護臺灣，讓臺灣的專業可以發揮，我想這是人民之福。小弟我在去年也是屆齡從臺大退休了，所以我現在是臺大的名譽教授，但是我想未來我們臺灣有更多更多醫療專業的資源，這是臺灣的一個比較珍貴的地方，因為我們百年來的一個訓練，就是讓我們怎麼樣來關懷人民。","今天應該是很榮幸有機會來這邊發言，也應該是我在立法院最後一次的公開發言，在這邊我還是要表達，臺灣過去百年來醫療人員對人民、對社會的一個貢獻，現在在制度方面，我們也希望未來能夠有所改善，成為一個更好的醫療環境，藉著這樣一個疫情後、疫後，我們就謙虛的來思考，就好像在SARS以後，我們很多醫療體系當時很固執，可是在SARS以後、在921地震以後，我們把醫院跟基層結合起來，共同攜手照顧社區的民眾，一路走來一直到COVID-19，疫後我們更需要來思考，也要珍惜我們這些專業的人員。而且我上次也有建議，在後疫情時代我們應該要怎麼樣來做，其實世界各國都在善待醫事人員，也投入必要的醫療資源，因為他們都站在疫情當中，守護人民的健康。","第二個，在健保方面，臺灣的滿意度高，但是對醫療人員來說，承擔比較重，如果總額沒有辦法隨醫療需求來讓其足夠，是不是應該要想想怎麼樣來健康投資，這個是我們未來疫後要嚴肅面對的問題。","第三個，在基層醫療、社區醫療上，要怎麼樣加強他們的量能跟數位的能力，我希望疫後、未來在建設一個健康臺灣裡面，都可以請我們執政團隊，好好針對這幾點來努力，我也希望執政團隊把這個列入紀錄，畢竟這是醫界的心聲。","當然最後一個小小的請求，就是我們112年第2季、第3季平均點值是0.9，但是希望在第2、3季都能採浮動點值，因為有些平均點值還是會不到0.9，還是很辛苦，診所只要沒有到0.9，其實是很難經營下去的，也拜託行政院後續能再繼續努力。","最後，雖然今天有三個主題，但是我希望不要影響到我們對防疫的成果、臺灣的努力、臺灣人的光榮，衷心感謝防疫工作的研發、政策研擬、實務防疫的團隊及全民的支持跟配合，感謝大家，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝委員，謝謝你的貢獻。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。接下來請王委員鴻薇質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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有狀況我們在社區就給它鎖住最好的一個防疫的一個陣線那比如說我們在"},{"start":179.668,"end":208.06,"text":"人員醫院比較緊迫的時候我們可以看下面的部分其實我們也發動了全國的也是在總統的指導之下連基層醫師在出來拚因為醫院緊緊緊繃、人力緊繃還有很多重症需要治療所以我們就動員了四大方向當然也請奧比奧科醫學會來做指導全國來做篩檢的工作當然我們因為人心會需要穩定"},{"start":209.111,"end":234.09,"text":"除了我的老師陳建仁院長給我們全國很大的心理的一個支持以外我們也要給他們做身心壓力的一個照顧這個我們請精神醫學會來幫忙另外在社區還是很多預防保健及慢性的疾病的管理及家級安寧照顧等等的一個照顧其實在我們也請家庭醫學會動員來指導我們跟基層醫師來做"},{"start":238.055,"end":265.487,"text":"最後就是我們的一個社區打疫苗的事情我們請兒科醫學院他們比較會打疫苗來做所以這樣有動員萬民的基層醫療這樣做那這個過程當中我也感謝我們陳建仁老師在這樣的一個工作裡面給我們最大的支持那當然後續完成的六大任務這一次這幾年來最重要的就是不管是PCR的採檢還有就是演技的一個診療大家應該知道這個"},{"start":266.81,"end":287.282,"text":"當台北市在疫情緊繃的時候,一天有1萬個感染者只要有20隻跑到醫院去,醫院急診就崩潰了但是我們政府有一個很好的政策,就是居家的一個醫療,視訊醫療,可以讓得病的人、染疫的人能夠在家裡"},{"start":287.898,"end":311.474,"text":"我們用視訊給他用家庭意識的方式讓小孩子發燒家屬不用把小孩子帶到急診那可以在家裡得到很安心的照顧一萬個每天一萬個病人這樣鎖下來這是臺灣的奇蹟也是世界我想一個典範先看下一張那當然就是在疫苗的追蹤其實也感謝陳"},{"start":313.951,"end":339.942,"text":"其實全部的政府的高層我這個互動當中他們都很支持很鼓勵基層社區來做所以克服了很多的困難讓社區遵守來打疫苗打不到幾個月大概有70%的疫苗是在社區打民眾也得到方便我想這個部分也是當時陳建仁教授給我們最大的一個鼓勵跟用文獻來呈現當然這樣的成果我們"},{"start":344.096,"end":372.511,"text":"也不只在國內所處我們只要分享給我們世界各國剛好我們台灣醫師會跟世界醫師會互動非常好所以我們的專家把我們台灣的很多經驗也分享到世界各國所以世界醫師會更加肯定我們台灣在過去醫療的水準甚至防疫的水準都是一流的更加的堅定支持我們台灣一定要參與WHO的活動所以大家的防疫成果"},{"start":373.058,"end":400.938,"text":"其實是幫我們台灣打下了很多的江山那我也曾經在2021我擔任這個亞大19個國家醫師會的總會長我們也把我們的經驗分享給亞洲19個國家讓他們能夠防疫的更好亞太的安全當然是大家努力的那同時也在2021年的9月在台灣開的西貿大會裡面我們把過去大家努力的經驗、心血"},{"start":403.191,"end":425.861,"text":"呈現在有一個叫做臺北宣言發表在國際間最近也得到WHO世界議事會世界議事會跟WHO息子相關要我們把它正式在REVISE變成世界級的我想都是我們政府民間還有各個專業團體大家一起努力貢獻的一個結果請看下一張那請問"},{"start":430.812,"end":457.472,"text":"院長有沒有對前面這些工作要不要跟我們醫療團隊或者是講幾句話我想台灣在過去2020年開始連續三四年的這個期間我們真的要謝謝我們邱泰源委員還有我們醫事工會甚至全國防疫還有醫療第一線的工作同仁們的辛勞大家的努力確實使得"},{"start":458.713,"end":458.953,"text":"邱泰源議員"},{"start":488.773,"end":488.913,"text":"邱泰源議員"},{"start":507.193,"end":507.253,"text":"邱泰源"},{"start":532.37,"end":547.57,"text":"我們在屏東就壓抑得很好可是我們會發現在新北市跟北市因為有所謂的萬華事件的關係所以這個疫情曾經告急在這樣的一個情況下也幸好"},{"start":547.91,"end":547.97,"text":"邱泰源議員"},{"start":563.072,"end":563.252,"text":"邱泰源議員"},{"start":587.938,"end":588.038,"text":"邱泰源議員"},{"start":609.855,"end":635.252,"text":"謝謝院長陳老師的一個鼓勵以及對全國醫療團隊所有還醫的工作等等的再度的鼓勵那其實這些成功其實是其來有自當然這個努力我也要感謝我們協熱人部長在這過去幾年當中次長任內跟我們醫界攜手合作我們到哪裡他就到哪裡一樣的"},{"start":636.437,"end":658.702,"text":"來做一種防疫的工作在這邊特別感謝我們謝部長那我要講的就是前面的努力其實直擊臺灣的珍貴所以臺灣應該要更加來和諧更加的來互相攜手來把所有過去大家的努力累積的老幹心之傳承好繼續守護這個臺灣像我剛剛這個圖就是"},{"start":662.315,"end":687.79,"text":"我們其實台灣百年來醫者就是關懷人民跟社會的情懷那我也記得我的老師臺大醫學院的前院長謝伯仁教授其實我這30年來所有在不管在醫師公會或者是在立委案上我都跟隨他的理念他是一個不求名利只求台灣好的人在過去他也跟陳建仁教授非常合作在推動很多很多到現在"},{"start":689.336,"end":694.18,"text":"臺灣有這樣的資產,我們未來可以珍惜守護臺灣,讓臺灣的專業發揮,我想是人民之福"},{"start":713.393,"end":735.568,"text":"那小弟我大概在去年也是借領臺大退休的所以我現在是臺大的名譽教授那但是我想未來我想我們有更多更多臺灣更多的醫療專業的職業這是臺灣的一個比較珍貴的因為我們的訓練百年來就是讓我們怎麼樣關懷人民所以這中間我還是因為我也算是"},{"start":735.973,"end":764.574,"text":"今天應該是很榮幸又有機會來這邊發言應該是我在立法院最後一次公開發言我在這邊還是要表達說臺灣過去百年來醫療人員對人民對社會的一個貢獻那現在的一個制度方面我們希望未來怎麼樣改善一個更好的醫療環境那藉著這樣的一個疫情的一個異後我們就謙虛的思考就好像我們SARS以後我們很多醫療體系當時"},{"start":765.865,"end":793.563,"text":"很固執可是到此以後從地震911地震以後我們把醫院跟基層合作起來共同攜手來照顧社區的民眾一路走來到一個COVID-19那天以後我們更是要來思考那要珍惜我們這些專業人員但是請看下一張但是我上次也有建議其實在後疫情時代我們怎麼樣其實世界各國都在善待"},{"start":794.438,"end":822.354,"text":"議事人員投入必要的醫療資源因為他們都站在疫情當中守護人民的健康第二個就是說如果在健保方面也是臺灣的滿意度高但是對醫療人員是承擔比較重如果總而沒有辦法隨醫療需求來承足夠是不是應該要怎麼樣來健康投資這個是我們未來、以後要嚴肅面對的問題第三個在基層醫療、社區醫療怎麼樣加強他們的量能"},{"start":823.342,"end":850.129,"text":"跟數位的努力我想以後未來我希望建設一個健康台灣裡面這幾點都可以請我們執政部團隊未來好好的針對這個來努力那我也希望執政團隊把這個列入紀錄將來這是一屆的行程當然最後一個小小的請求就是我們112年第二季第三季平均點子0.9但是其實希望"},{"start":851.049,"end":855.052,"text":"雖然今天有上個主題,但是我希望不要影響到我們對防疫的成果、台灣的努力、台灣人的光榮"},{"start":877.594,"end":883.563,"text":"衷心感謝防疫工作的研發政策原理實務防疫的團隊及全民的支持跟配合感謝大家謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}