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簡報設備"},{"start":165.834,"end":165.954,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":189.079,"end":192.7,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員"},{"start":208.106,"end":231.966,"text":"我們在3月5號跟6號的話會在電腦教室來舉辦各位的話可以來報名如果說真的有什麼需要我們來協助的話也可以跟我們聯繫我們今天的課程的話我們會請我們三個科的科長針對他們三個科的業務來做一個簡單的說明首先的話我們就請我們的那個通訊系統科的王科長來講我們的自然的作業"},{"start":243.337,"end":258.12,"text":"各位助理大家好那我是那個通訊信用課的課長我叫王維戰那我的分機是5746那是我的聯絡方式那以後本課這相關的一些事項也都可以除了找我們課的同仁之外也可以找我然後我們再看怎麼為各位服務"},{"start":260.527,"end":270.597,"text":"通訊系統科的業務主要有以下六大項包括數位評證服務、立法服務網的資訊服務、電子郵件系統、數位電話的通訊設備、網路服務和資訊安全以下是我的大綱"},{"start":281.892,"end":304.688,"text":"各位手上應該已經有拿到我們資訊系統介紹有關資訊安全及網路服務這一塊的所謂應該比較詳細的概述那我等一下就代稱它就是我們的參考書那世衛憑證服務主要應該是在我們的參考書的一至一頁到一至三頁世衛憑證服務主要是每一個委員他都會有一張的識別證"},{"start":306.4,"end":331.355,"text":"然後他還會有他會有那個五個token這一張識別證跟五個token都代表的是委員的身份那另外還有14張最多14張的公費助理證可以申請那我們的識別證他還有一些防偽的一些功能就像下面寫的這些有那個梅花網點啊變色油墨這些的那提供大家參考"},{"start":334.697,"end":361.6,"text":"IC 識別證它的功能主要有以下三個第一個是它可以出入院區的識別證那因為我們這邊立法院區跟那個張嶺和辦公大樓一樣都是有保六警 駐衛警在這邊為大家服務然後提供我們的那個警衛服務那所以他們只有一百多個人要同時要能夠辨別我們有兩千多個人這的確是很有困難的所以這時候就需要這張識別證"},{"start":364.932,"end":367.498,"text":"那所以還有再來就是登錄院內的資訊系統"},{"start":369.266,"end":394.315,"text":"那因為這個識別證呢其實它本身就帶有一個那個數位的晶片在裡面那你一定要有這個憑證然後才會就才代表說這是你的身份那在資訊安全裡面呢其實我們有講就所謂的多因子認證你知道一個系統的帳號密碼這代表是你知道那這是一個因子那如果你有這張憑證代表你有這是第二個因子所以像我們的這個憑證"},{"start":395.896,"end":422.533,"text":"在我們這邊使用的時候你要登錄院內資訊系統都一定要有它而且要知道你的帳號密碼所以同時這代表我們說我們在使用我們的服務的時候是具有雙因子認證有兩重的保障那所以這其實在資訊安全裡面已經算是相當高的資安了資安等級好然後再來還有圖書館的借書還書那我們的那個國會圖書館裡面的館藏的資料其實相當的多那但是就是如果要借書的話都還是得要靠我們的這張IC識別證"},{"start":427.999,"end":451.685,"text":"這張數位憑證的申請服務的流程其實它自從我們申請日開始就我們收到單之後它必須要大概4個工作天才能完成那4個工作天其實是因為它還需要有印刷這個識別證的這個版面然後還有晶片要把它簽在裡面還有一些資訊要簽在裡面那所以如果有需要的話就是有急需可以盡早申請然後它大概就是4個工作天"},{"start":452.285,"end":452.465,"text":"執行局局長"},{"start":475.131,"end":498.743,"text":"就是讓警衛他們可以識別說這個人是你 是很清晰他才能放你進來那行動憑證的申請這部分就是行動憑證就是在你的手機上面可以申請一個行動憑證它主要的用途是用在行動入口網上面那行動入口網它就是可以主要是可以接近我們的那個派車系統派車系統然後還有那個"},{"start":500.404,"end":510.947,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":517.009,"end":543.916,"text":"那可是也要跟各位就是先說就是因為其實行動裝置的種類非常的多還有包括那個Android的還有IOS的系統那其實種類非常多所以有時候也難免會有碰到那個無法安裝的情況那我們會盡可能的幫大家裝那再來就是像IOS它的那個系統的要求安全性的要求會比較高所以有時候也有可能說它一個版本的更新然後就導致說我們的這個"},{"start":545.94,"end":571.046,"text":"Apple它就會有失效的情況那我們當然就會趕快請那個相應的廠商然後去做這個版本的程式App程式的那個版本更新只是版本更新有時候也是會需要一些時間這部分也要先請大家見諒好然後數位憑證服務呢它的有效期限是到任期的屆滿為止或是說離開的時候那我們就會"},{"start":573.413,"end":591.779,"text":"就把它停置那卡片如果遺失或token遺失的話它的公本費都要500塊那所以請各位就是幫我們好好保管它那行動憑證主要就是用於行動人體憑證主要是用於立法院的行動入口網使用供做一個身份認證"},{"start":593.376,"end":611.747,"text":"那如果有這個數位憑證它的一些就是有效或者是申請這部分然後或是遺失的部分這邊以服務的窗口就是我們這邊寫的一期一試那但是如果你有立法院的行動入口網這個使用操作上的需求的部分就會建議大家就是撥5297"},{"start":617.398,"end":641.44,"text":"好,然後這邊也提醒的就是其實我們常常會有碰到就是一些經驗就是會有人來反映說欸這個我的行動憑證我的數位憑證它已經被鎖住了那這時候鎖住的時候怎麼辦呢就密碼打錯鎖住了怎麼辦那這時候就要麻煩各位就是移動你們的那個移動你們的身體然後拿著你的憑證到我們的"},{"start":642.871,"end":657.117,"text":"通訊系統科這邊找我們的承辦人幫你們解鎖因為只有這邊可以解那也有發生我們的經驗是說可能他今天同時插了我們的數位憑證插在電腦上面可是他同時又插了健保卡"},{"start":658.135,"end":684.268,"text":"還是插了自然能憑證還是銀行的那個提款卡在上面那這時候因為你在打那個聘碼的時候電腦其實並不知道你打的是哪一個聘碼所以有時候就造成說不小心就把你的那個數位憑證鎖起來了所以建議大家以後在用數位憑證的時候盡量就是你用什麼系統用什麼功能就一次只要插一張就好這樣可以減少大家不小心把那個數位憑證鎖起來的機會"},{"start":689.326,"end":690.907,"text":"委員地方服務處的網路架構就是如我們這張投影片所述"},{"start":712.011,"end":740.162,"text":"那其實啊在很早之前的時候我們都是一般行政單位其實我們都是整個網路是從服務處啊研究室全部都連到我們立法院的諮詢處再統一出去的可是我們後來有對這個架構進行優化有強化那就會變成現在這個架構現在這個架構呢其實就是服務處的電腦要連上網的時候如果要是連的是我們院內的系統那他就會透過我們"},{"start":741.892,"end":746.625,"text":"我們上面這一個IPsec VPN的加密通道透過這個通道連回來"},{"start":749.087,"end":757.97,"text":"委員服務處．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研"},{"start":776.462,"end":790.622,"text":"這個立法委員的服務處跟我們院內研究室之間他也是透過這個加密的IPsec VPN通道將您的那個網路方鈴還有一些資料共享然後還有網路電話把它串跟院內串起來"},{"start":791.653,"end":818.084,"text":"那如果今天呢如果你們今天是要連的是對外的對外的部分的連線的話呢他就會譬如說Yahoo啊Google之類的那他就是直接出去透過我們這個防火牆出去那可能會有人問說那這樣子是不是資訊安全的部分可能會稍顯薄弱呢其實也不會因為我們這邊有這樣一台的UTM的設備這台設備它上面有內建它就是一台防火牆而且有內建一些"},{"start":818.684,"end":828.789,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":840.374,"end":865.146,"text":"每個委員服務處是提供一個獨立對外連線的網路它有100Mbps、40Mbps的下載、上傳的頻寬所以這邊的各位委員服務處的對外頻寬是保障100Mbps、40Mbps的不跟大家共用還有獨立的對外IP其實我們有在講到說有一個叫入卡原理的原則"},{"start":865.899,"end":866.88,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員"},{"start":880.54,"end":895.967,"text":"我們今天每個委員服務處這邊其實都有對外的IP那所以到時候如果我們有做過什麼事或是外面對我們有什麼攻擊行為的話我們其實都可以留下完善的證據就是可以知道說大概有發生什麼事情這對大家自然是有保障的"},{"start":900.595,"end":914.789,"text":"私人電腦連接本院的立法服務網是提供網際網路服務就是你今天只要把電腦如果接在我們的服務處的網路接上去了之後它是只能連外的它不能連內的可是如果你真的要連內的話那一定要經過專案申請"},{"start":920.936,"end":935.046,"text":"每個委員可以申請的設備就如我們這張列表簡單的計法就是個人電腦的部分就是4網路設備的部分只要跟網路有關的就是3套還有一個多個人事務機這都是委員服務處這邊可以申請的數量"},{"start":936.957,"end":966.174,"text":"那其中特別講的就是這個網路電話呢其實他就是像我剛前面講他透過那個B片通道連回來那使用上呢就會等同是我們院內的分機就可以直接撥4碼就可以接通了那ADS的網路線路呢就是我們可以有三線嘛那這就意味著說我們可以有三個服務處都可以使用三個地點都可以使用我們的網路這個線路他是100Mbps、40Mbps剛剛有講過然後無線網路基地台的部分呢"},{"start":966.873,"end":994.325,"text":"服務處那邊有需要的話可以申請這個無線網路基地台那他就可以提供提供那個來接洽的一些辦公的民眾他可以透過有個叫LNGuest的SSID一個無線網路的識別碼就可以連上去那連上去之後呢他就可以直接他會請你簡單的申請一個帳號然後確認說你手上申請這個帳號的手機是你本人所使用的他就可以連上網了其實也相當的便利"},{"start":999.076,"end":1024.573,"text":"然後如果有網路資訊服務設備的申請身狀異動的話呢就如我們這個流程圖所說那就是一開始呢就是要先要聯繫我們服務網的維運中心會聯繫各委員服務處然後會溝通裝機時間那接下來還要配合遠傳電信的安裝因為我們的服務處的網路線路我們現在是遠傳的所以跟遠傳先講好安裝日之後"},{"start":1025.011,"end":1053.911,"text":"我們會去安排一個電腦設備的到貨日然後到時候會再跟委員服務處約定安裝時間然後做一些安裝確認那目前其實大部分聯絡委員的部分都已經有來申請安裝那新任委員的部分就是申請安裝的比較少那所以這部分也請就是各助理回去可以跟各委員確認一下說各選區的有沒有需要設服務處啊然後來申請我們的這些服務"},{"start":1058.168,"end":1081.621,"text":"好那這邊呢就是要注意事項就是非本院所提供的設備其實就不是在這個教修範圍之內因為我們以往的經驗常就會有發現說服務處那邊可能就是一些親朋好友阿他的電腦手機阿還是平板阿只要有問題就會試著透過我們這個教修服務的窗口然後來聯繫那可是"},{"start":1082.928,"end":1101.754,"text":"因為畢竟那並不是那個就是教修的範圍那其實這對提供這個服務的公司或者是提供服務的工人師對他們而言其實算是比較不合理的要求啦對那這部分也請各位就是盡量見諒這樣子那我們服務網的服務窗口主要就是可以撥打5181還有5182請各位參考"},{"start":1109.194,"end":1115.199,"text":"電子郵件系統它在我們的參考書上面主要是在1-17頁到1-26頁電子郵件系統其實我們這邊電子郵件系統就是一樣要透過我們剛剛所提到的數位憑證這張識別證可以登錄它然後院內的話其實我們就是插著我們這張數位憑證的卡"},{"start":1134.957,"end":1161.553,"text":"他在讀卡機裡面然後就先連上我們的院內資源入口網站就是這個 portal.ly.gov.tw連進去之後透過我們的單一登錄就可以連到我們的右下角的這邊有一個電子郵件系統就可以連進去了那如果是院外呢院外的話也是要插這張卡插這張卡之後然後連結是這個 webmail.ly.gov.tw就可以連結到我們的webmail"},{"start":1163.936,"end":1177.956,"text":"阿但是院外阿使用這個服務的時候就是記得你的notebook可能也要先預先安裝好我們的那個憑證的相關的一些元件要先裝好然後才能夠使用那如果這邊面需要其實也可以跟我們聯繫"},{"start":1183.577,"end":1204.151,"text":"電子郵件系統其實我們因應那個治安法的要求其實我們每半年都需要變更一次的密碼那變更密碼的話在Webmail的介面登進去之後還有個人設定信箱安全還有一個密碼設定這邊就可以修改了密碼它的複雜度就建議至少你要8個字元"},{"start":1205.441,"end":1228.981,"text":"至少8個字元,然後盡量那個要有3種以上的那種復雜就是英文字啊、數字啊、然後還有特殊符號然後來確保你的那個密碼強度有夠,比較不容易被破解然後一定要透過院內核發的IC識別證來登錄本系統那每個委員呢,他都可以有6個電子郵件帳號,這6個電子郵件帳號每個帳號都有一G的容量,相當的大"},{"start":1232.925,"end":1249.696,"text":"公費助理也可以申請一個電子郵件信箱的帳號每個是200枚這部分就是記得要去額外跟我們來申請如果有需要的話一封電子郵件最大容量可以達到50枚它大約可以夾雜附件可以到45枚"},{"start":1254.364,"end":1268.291,"text":"其實這邊就是提醒大家會比較容易忘的就是因為今天過後可能半年之後才會注意到說要修改密碼所以這部分就是大家可以記得一下因為半年之後通常各位助理都會來問這件事情大家可以先記一下那我們的webmail的功能它還有提供有件轉寄然後寄件黑名單的過濾功能"},{"start":1283.977,"end":1310.413,"text":"這部分這個轉寄還有黑白名單功能就是使用者自己設定比如說你今天有信寄進來了之後結果發現說已經他會有寄一封信我們會有通知信告訴你說你可能有一個信被阻擋了如果是我們這邊有發現他可能就是系統自動判斷有問題的話寄一封信告訴你說你的信件可能被阻擋了這時候你就可以自己透過信件白名單功能去把它解開來然後他就可以收下來"},{"start":1312.352,"end":1313.814,"text":"關於社交工程郵件的部分簡單的說它就是透過那個"},{"start":1330.687,"end":1359.777,"text":"類似就是社交行為所會一些透過類似社交行為然後又管你去點擊他的一些連結或照做一些遵照他的指令去做一些事情那這部分等一下後面有時間的話我會再繼續再跟大家細講好然後一個電子郵件最多的收信人是600人含副本及密件喔這600人那如果你真的要寄的話你可以立行提出申請不過通常建議各位就是盡量不要寄"},{"start":1360.572,"end":1365.734,"text":"﹚第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":1389.286,"end":1404.535,"text":"非必要盡量不要真的記這麼多人我們可以分散著記比較不會被對方的郵件設備擋住因為對方可能會覺得這應該是廣告性吧怎麼量這麼大那我們這邊的服務窗口是1774這些請各位參考接下來是數位電話的通訊設備服務我們這邊的功能非常的多"},{"start":1419.69,"end":1433.073,"text":"通常我們使用的時候,我只是拿起來接電話、撥電話可是我們這功能非常多,所以建議各位其實有時間的話,真的想要用到比較多功能的時候可以看我們17到26頁這邊,我們有畫機的簡易的操作說明然後"},{"start":1444.768,"end":1463.674,"text":"數位電話的通訊服務主要我們有提供數位電話那這邊其實就是只要是跟我們數位電話通訊服務大概都是2就是記得2這件事情只要跟電話有關就是2這個2是怎麼來的就是數位電話我們研究室有10線電話然後10線電話裡面有2線傳真然後PHS手機就是這邊這個"},{"start":1469.805,"end":1492.33,"text":"這個手機,這已經算是,真的算國寶級了,現在那個電信業者一般都沒有這個手機服務了這個低頻率,然後就輻射又小,個人是覺得還不錯啦那還有這個MVPN,公務MVPN兩門,就是這部分要請各位自備手機,那等一下後面有圖我再跟大家介紹"},{"start":1495.425,"end":1512.577,"text":"這些電話都是視同我們院內分機,彼此之間都是可以互通的PHS無線手機的服務範圍在我們院內有加PHS手機基地台的部分都可以連線有青島的一館、二館、三館、鎮江、一場紅樓、群仙樓、中興大樓,其實就是我們院區內"},{"start":1520.202,"end":1539.749,"text":"那不過他的範圍是因為受限於基地台啦所以其實你只要超過我們縣區範圍大概可能五六十公尺的部分他就收不到了所以就算所以有時候中午出去吃飯的時候就不用帶著他出去因為你帶著他出去你可能就走很遠然後奇怪怎麼都沒有響因為他已經超出服務範圍了他就絕對不會響對好那接下來是MVPN"},{"start":1545.762,"end":1570.289,"text":"MEPN它這個功能主要是將院內的行動分機與行動電話結合那也就是說我們MEPN它的收訊的範圍其實是取決於我們一般的市級GD台的範圍那也就是說其實我們全台都可以收到MEPN那它範圍非常的廣然後它也透過這個系統我們就可以直接跟我們院內的話機結合就可以直接直播"},{"start":1571.689,"end":1590.925,"text":"每個委員我們是最多配發兩張的公務SIM卡請安裝至支援雙卡的手機就是你的手機上你有雙卡的話你就可以把那張SIM卡把它插進去當然如果你想要省SIM卡的空間的話只要你是iPhone XS以上的話你都可以去申請eSIM就可以省下你一個SIM卡的空間"},{"start":1592.657,"end":1618.869,"text":"那MPN它就是與院內分機就是等價的所以啊 它其實就是不限次數 不限時間打都是不用錢啊就是院內分機互通嘛那目前限制就是MPN它就是不能外播視話 行動電話而且它不能接收簡訊所以也沒辦法用它來去做一些什麼外面的網頁什麼認證的使用那 這個怎麼用 其實這張圖"},{"start":1621.195,"end":1622.035,"text":"院內分機院內分機院內分機"},{"start":1641.755,"end":1668.772,"text":"就先撥88然後再撥你的MVPN的4碼就可以撥出去了就可以撥到它那如果是MVPN這邊的呢就是要撥先按37然後再撥我們院內分機這樣就可以互通那簡單的來說就是你MVPN這邊要撥出去的你要撥院內就撥37要撥其他MVPN就撥88反正你只要是拿著MVPN的話你就記得不管你是要撥院內分機還是手機都要前面都要先撥"},{"start":1669.713,"end":1698.224,"text":"他前面那個特定的那個電話路由的號碼對好然後相關的安裝及異動啊也是請可以聯繫我們的服務窗口那委員研究室的部分委員研究會管理室的部分就是6944那教修的話就撥3333那這個數位化機呢其實"},{"start":1698.939,"end":1719.681,"text":"你撥打國際長途電話的時候費用都要自己負擔喔然後黨團有需要的話就是要先申請然後才能撥國際長途電話那PHS手機因為它是國寶級的它現在其實也買不到就是少掉了之後我們也沒辦法去補也買不到所以它的費用比較貴剛剛前面憑證是500那這個就是1000塊"},{"start":1722.844,"end":1745.324,"text":"請各位參考那這邊其實就是剛剛有跟各位提到說數位化計它有那個操作說明啊對那操作說明的部分現在可以看那個那本小冊子的就是參考書的一之十七頁好沒關係如果沒有翻也沒有關係因為其實我就簡單跟大家說"},{"start":1746.653,"end":1773.816,"text":"播接外線的部分阿按鈴就是來電不顯示阿如果你按米鈴的話就是按鈴是就是我們打電話的時候不顯示然後按米鈴的時候就是會顯示我們立法院的電話所以今天如果說各位在使用的時候播給大家發現說欸我每次按鈴播出去結果對方都不接好奇怪喔那這時候你可以試著播米鈴它就會變成來電有顯示因為有時候譬如說有人手機他的戶是扣阿還是"},{"start":1774.654,"end":1792.373,"text":"他那個有設定說就是未顯示來電他就不接他就給你阻擋所以各位可以試試看先撥米再撥零這個方式然後可以打打看然後也許會有用對然後我們第22頁有一個有提到我們有一個錄音的"},{"start":1794.468,"end":1809.14,"text":"有一個線上錄音的操作說明這個桌機都有這個功能如果有需要的話就提出那就是先用申請表進行申請那申請有經過申請有合過之後那我們就會去把這個系統設定好就可以使用這個功能網路服務那它在我們的參考書主要是在27到38頁"},{"start":1826.379,"end":1828.881,"text":"網路服務有限網路每一個委員的研究室對外提供獨立的上傳下載頻寬 也是有獨立的對外IP"},{"start":1845.799,"end":1868.949,"text":"那私人電腦連接本院的有線網路的時候呢也是只提供對外的連線然後它不能連院內那衛星專案申請一樣就不可以使用我們院內的各項的系統那其中特別提的是說 欸 如果你有那個筆電的話你有自己帶筆電 你有申請LY的service跟LYH 那就可以使用Portal一些較常用的服務"},{"start":1874.589,"end":1900.207,"text":"無線網路的部分,它的訊號的範圍其實就是如這邊所寫,也是院區,簡單說就是院區、新店、異地備援中心、中部辦公室、鎮將會館、大安會館這些都有那如果你們有發現說,你們在使用上發現無線網路的訊號有收不到的情況,那就可以再跟我們反映"},{"start":1900.919,"end":1909.205,"text":"那我們再來看說這個是基地台有沒有辦法可以調整他的位置還是怎麼樣去符合這個服務這樣子"},{"start":1915.225,"end":1940.857,"text":"無線網路的部分,其實我們院內的院區這邊主要有1,2,3,4主要有4個SSID提供各位服務通常我們會建議如果有需要的話,就是要申請LY的service這個LY service它是25M,20M的另外LYH它是100M的,這個頻寬是比較大的"},{"start":1943.042,"end":1969.114,"text":"主要是提供委員助理還有院內人員使用那這個申請其實就是在那個我們的我們的那個首頁那邊它會有連進去就是Portal連進去之後它會有一個無線網路的申請平台那邊可以去申請的那個手機把它連進去就是一個"},{"start":1970.373,"end":1977.471,"text":"一個評審可以綁五個裝置所以建議就是你們有需要的話就可以申請"},{"start":1979.565,"end":2003.107,"text":"有人會問說那為什麼這個才25M那這個有100M那我是不是都用100M就好了那其實這是因為LY Service它提供的服務是2.5GHz的所以它的範圍會比較大可是範圍大的犧牲掉就是它的速度當然就會比較小那LYH它是範圍比較小可是它可以提供更高的速度"},{"start":2005.202,"end":2024.856,"text":"那所以如果你們是,譬如說在院區在移動中的話,那你可能就用LY service,它比較不會斷那如果你是坐在辦公室,然後又可以收到LYH的話,那就建議用LYH好,然後這邊還有一個LY的iMeeting那這部分呢是提供給那個,就是做五指花會議使用的"},{"start":2026.462,"end":2051.178,"text":"那通常是給行政院的各部會﹐各單位他們去使用因為我們使用LY Service跟LYH﹐一樣可以連到五指化會議系統對﹐所以我們其實要注意的專注應該是這一段那LY的iGuest這個是給訪客跟記者用的那它一樣就是不能連線院內系統那我們的這個LY Service跟LYH﹐它可以連線我們院內系統"},{"start":2053.206,"end":2082.078,"text":"那愛米婷這個就單純就是蓮霧子化好這邊就是好這就是剛剛講的有線網路申請流程呢窗口就是1111然後要提如果說你要把你的設備要接到我們的那個有線網路這邊的話你要填一個立法院的網路卡編號注冊申請單然後讓我們就是"},{"start":2083.137,"end":2105.575,"text":"做一個開通的動作當然你要連進我們的院內的有限環境的話我們除了要請你們提供專案申請之外我們還會請你們安裝本院的資安軟體才能連線院內的系統使用因為你要連進來我們就要裝一些基本的防毒然後還有一些異常行為檢測的軟體保障各位的系統的安全"},{"start":2113.446,"end":2126.538,"text":"這就是剛剛有講的無線網路的註冊流程這個就是要拿你們的那個窗口先說窗口是1753然後是在入口網站的左側有一個行動上網平台然後要點選一個初次使用註冊帳號然後"},{"start":2131.232,"end":2155.109,"text":"那邊這個帳號註冊完成之後接下來就要拿起你的手機先連到LY的service的訊號然後輸入密碼它密碼SSID因為它是我們為了兼顧它的資訊安全不讓各位在傳輸的時候那個傳輸的內容是明碼在那個空氣戒指中傳輸所以我們有做要求說一定要輸入密碼這個密碼就是那個"},{"start":2156.69,"end":2184.256,"text":"我們院內的分級2358、5858輸進去之後呢然後你就可以把你的手機號碼輸進去然後做一個簡訊的綁定然後就可以綁定五個裝置那所以通常這個無線網路的使用上通常會碰到的問題是可能是我今天已經綁了五個裝置了然後超過了或者是說我今天有設備就是要換然後結果就是數量已經到上限就發現"},{"start":2185.421,"end":2186.141,"text":"直通安全"},{"start":2209.748,"end":2228.513,"text":"資訊安全政策,我們院內有個資訊安全管理的要點這是它的大綱,它主要有這麼多的條例我們也是放在參考書的一支39到一支41頁各位有空可以看一下"},{"start":2232.014,"end":2249.009,"text":"那自通安全的定義自通安全其實就是各位都知道它就是為了防止你的系統或資訊免於受多種的威脅的攻擊然後確保個人重要資料的機密完整可用性就是大家常常說的CIA對那"},{"start":2252.748,"end":2280.016,"text":"臺灣這邊其實是駭客攻擊非常嚴重的地區我們從Google上面關鍵字下一下就是臺灣資料外洩就發現說其實臺灣的資料外洩非常的嚴重那根據目前IT home他做2023到2024臺灣最可能的職安風險的調查他就有發現說其實目前第一風險第一大的是社交工程就是剛剛前面email那邊有講到一個社交工程電子郵件"},{"start":2281.202,"end":2297.811,"text":"自安的本質是無孔不入的,因為自安是建構於一系列環環相扣的保護機制"},{"start":2299.836,"end":2320.459,"text":"所以破壞者他只要找出最弱的一環﹖就可以瓦解整個保護機制所以你防護做得再好﹖其實你知道百密只要一輸﹖然後他就從那個漏洞就鑽進來了對﹖然後復巢之下無完卵﹖這是跟你說﹖你只要那個漏洞被利用了﹖他進來之後﹖他就長驅直入﹖裡面什麼東西都可能會被他拿走"},{"start":2326.184,"end":2345.021,"text":"木桶理論木桶理論常用在各種經濟學還是各種方面都有用到那在資安這部分也是木桶理論怎麼說呢就是我們的各項的防護呢就像這個木桶這個木板上面一塊一塊有高低不停的板子可能我們在實體安全能做得特別好那它的板子特別的高"},{"start":2345.962,"end":2370.408,"text":"那可能我們在系統的安全可能也做得很好那可能是另外一個高度可是假設我們在人為這部分就是大家的資安教育如果說我們稍微弱一點的時候假設啦那它可能就像這個木桶一樣它的板子比較矮所以那個裡面的這些水這個水池就好像是我們的資料它就會從裡面外洩出來就會被供給就會被利用"},{"start":2373.083,"end":2397.894,"text":"那所以意思是說就是所謂的資安是要從各方面各面向都要去兼顧然後避免說我們的最短最短的這個木板太短了然後資料都外洩出來然後就是被攻擊好那所以我們要養成良好的資安習慣那資安習慣我們要怎麼要注意哪些呢"},{"start":2399.059,"end":2423.644,"text":"不明的人士要盤查那就是在說如果今天有人跟著進出的話比如說實體安全的部分如果有人跟著我們識別證進出的部分還是在你們辦公室附近晃的時候大家都要注意說那個是誰就是要有那個警覺心不要讓他裝熟然後就進入我們的辦公室還是研究室那些就把資料就這樣看著什麼都看著都拿了"},{"start":2424.824,"end":2448.319,"text":"然後不要下載拷貝﹖來路不明的軟體﹖破解程式或遊戲外掛這些這個我們的經驗是也常發現說會有這種情況那各位要注意就是其實有時候我們用一些軟體覺得很好用然後有時候又想說那我可不可以去下載一些破解軟體想說我用這個就好了又不用錢可是各位要想說"},{"start":2449.551,"end":2450.091,"text":"社交工程要小心喔 那就是"},{"start":2478.141,"end":2490.957,"text":"剛前面講的社交工程的有電子郵件的部分目前啊我們就我們資安的角度這邊來說其實我們資安防護做得非常的好那"},{"start":2492.093,"end":2520.083,"text":"不管是系統的硬體的防火牆啊防護重生就是各式各樣的設備錢都買了然後設備也都都已經布了層層的防禦可是其實後來駭客他們發現說透過社交工程郵件是目前最有效最有效的方式怎麼說呢因為我們的防禦是幫各位把外面的攻擊層層的防禦阻擋起來可是啊社交工程郵件他就是寄一封信或一個簡訊給你然後你點了之後呢這個"},{"start":2521.671,"end":2535.352,"text":"這個行為是從內往外出去的對,所以這個是最容易攻擊的而且你點了之後,你可能會執行復建,執行一連串的程式碼你可能會變成所謂的BOT的那個電腦"},{"start":2538.43,"end":2551.62,"text":"然後所以執行它被駭客的電腦所控制所以這段就是目前政府單位305聲說請各位一定要注意社交公司的郵件然後所以每年我們也都會做演練"},{"start":2553.373,"end":2579.845,"text":"那所以當你們看到來路不明的電子郵件﹖來源有問題﹖看起來怪怪的﹖或他的來源是什麼﹖單位﹖然後一些很大的公司﹖通常那個信可能要注意﹖然後再來時間﹖如果他時間上﹖時間上他如果是半夜寄信的﹖你會想說﹖我們通常半夜不會每次去寄這些信﹖以我們認識﹖我們通常可能公務的部分﹖都是白天上班時間寄﹖那種異常時間的﹖那也有可能是社交信﹖"},{"start":2584.059,"end":2602.139,"text":"請各位要注意這種特殊的信都千萬不要開而且它會是聳動的標題譬如說薪資減少還是黃色小牙都是那種看起來就很有趣的就超想點的那種信請務必一定要注意那我們也不要去連結"},{"start":2603.22,"end":2623.169,"text":"或登錄未經確認的網站﹖有時候你點一個連結﹖還是譬如說登錄Facebook﹖可是有時候那個也許是一個釣魚的﹖然後去拐你的帳號密碼﹖所以也要注意﹖有人會說那我怎麼辦﹖那你可能是平常﹖你要點﹖你要確定你要點那個Facebook的時候﹖你可能平常就會先注意一下那個有沒有可能﹖連結怪怪的﹖然後他為什麼要我點﹖"},{"start":2624.927,"end":2652.39,"text":"這我們就要提高警覺然後不下載非法軟體啊然後也不未經確認就提供資料不要人家丟一個訊息說給我一下那個簡訊碼然後我們就說好好你就自己給他傳一個簡訊碼過去幫人家做認證然後錢就出去了或是資料就出去了那電腦不用的時候要登出我們還要設定螢幕的保護程式然後電腦長時間不用也要關機這個很重要因為那個我們有發現說其實很多的電腦"},{"start":2654.005,"end":2680.286,"text":"有時候大家習慣想說我工作很多我就電腦就不關機可是你不關機他整個晚上都在那邊運作那通常那個駭客他們如果要攻擊的時候就是透過晚上半夜你沒有在電腦前面的時候去運作他就去想辦法去攻擊你然後在你的電腦上面做一些事情對然後或者是他取得你的權限攻下你的電腦甚至是說要去做一些額外的散步的工作都要通常是靠半夜的時候"},{"start":2680.663,"end":2708.393,"text":"所以半夜的時候如果你電腦不關機其實就是讓駭客有機會去嘗試踹你的電腦有什麼漏洞所以建議各位電腦晚上下班的時候請記得一定要關機然後複雜的密碼就你的系統的密碼一定要複雜不要1234567啊然後什麼AB123456類似這樣子請盡量一定要複雜那複雜密碼不是要你那個功而不就是完全功而不破而是要增加它的複雜度讓駭客想要踹你的密碼的時候不會一踹就進去"},{"start":2709.451,"end":2737.131,"text":"然後當他想要快要拆成功的時候你可能又換一個密碼了是增加他的困難度好 那重要資料一定要養成多重備份的習慣因為重要的資料像之前我們很嚴重的那個瓦納克萊熱搜軟體他主要就是把你的重要資料備份起來然後你又覺得這資料很重要你又很急著說那我付贖金給你總可以了吧可是有時候他們那個駭客他們你付了贖金之後有的時候他也不會給你密碼所以你也解不開"},{"start":2738.43,"end":2760.281,"text":"對,然後再不然就是也有聽說就是你要給他他給你密碼之後發現說其實你的電腦中了太多病毒然後又有更多的那個LOSO軟體一層又一層然後所以變成你還是解不開所以通常LOSO軟體通常都要抱著就是可能就沒救了要有那種心理準備所以平常我們一定要養成多重備份多備幾份重要資料的好習慣"},{"start":2764.844,"end":2771.627,"text":"然後我們這邊通常有發現說電腦一些有交慢的原因阿這邊也是提供各位助理參考那"},{"start":2773.554,"end":2790.57,"text":"開機的時候我們會檢查罪系統的更新﹑病毒碼更新﹑相關性檢查﹑還有上傳使用的經驗回饋這些我們是立法院是資訊安全責任等級是A級的單位所以我們是以最高的等級在看待我們的資訊安全我們會安裝防毒軟體還有一些異常行為偵測的一些"},{"start":2796.095,"end":2796.135,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":2820.586,"end":2845.085,"text":"然後每日的午休時段會進行全機的病毒掃描那這個部分也請大家在這個時間可能就不要那麼辛苦在辦公了我們就把電腦留給那個防毒軟體幫我們做基本的一些檢測對,然後對,所以就請各位要這樣子會比較好,因為我之前有碰過我們有碰過case說欸奇怪我們去集合的時候看到那個電腦怎麼"},{"start":2846.873,"end":2872.772,"text":"好像已經一年多都沒有做那個全年全機病毒掃描不是這邊喔 就是說我以前碰到外面集合的case那怎麼都沒有掃描你們單位不是每個每個每天都要求說要掃嗎結果他仁兄就是每天要那個病毒掃描他就按重開機他說我覺得他電腦要掃讀的時候啊就很麻煩啊電腦都慢慢的他就給按重開機結果一整年都沒有掃過全機都沒有做過病毒掃描"},{"start":2874.285,"end":2892.196,"text":"對,可是他這樣就沒辦法去找到最新的一些病毒然後去阻擋一些最新的病毒的太陽這樣比較不好然後系統的空間已滿的話他當然就是因為你存取的時候他都會需要一些空間來做暫存你都滿的話其實效能會變慢所以可能是清理一下你的電腦的硬碟"},{"start":2893.929,"end":2918.096,"text":"會叫好 然後電腦在進行備份或更新的時候 這當然也會慢 因為它會存取大量的磁碟資料 會做存取啊 然後安裝那這部分也是請各位 就是給我們的系統一點耐心 然後讓它去更新那使用者開啟多個程式或瀏覽或開啟大量網頁的部分我們有發現說 各位委員助理可能就是常需要看到很多的資料 所以一口氣開了三四十個那個"},{"start":2920.231,"end":2929.06,"text":"三、四十個網頁,然後同時開在電腦上尤其又是用Colon去開,大家現在喜歡用Colon因為Colon它也會吃大量的記憶體所以你們會覺得說奇怪我電腦怎麼這麼慢"},{"start":2930.984,"end":2954.146,"text":"那這邊就建議說其實 如果真的有需要開當然網頁的話 其實開10個以下就好了 不要開這麼的多 開這麼多其實 記憶體吃光速度變慢 然後我們使用者體驗的感覺也不好然後 我們也發現說曾經有發現 就是有安裝兩套以上的防毒軟體 在相互干擾 然後就會覺得說 欸奇怪 那個電腦特別慢欸 然後就一檢查就"},{"start":2954.666,"end":2976.652,"text":"因為他可能又裝趨勢啊又裝卡帕斯基啊又裝什麼扇門鐵克裝了一堆然後因為每個掃毒的動作他都會互相的去去偵測是不是有異常所以你的電腦就變得潮滿並不是防毒軟體裝越多就越安全那這部分就是也是宣導然後下載免費軟體工具的時候呢會遭綁架這個大量耗電的資源軟體好"},{"start":2981.65,"end":3000.622,"text":"好,那快速講完,就是你下載工具的時候可能會有,它會同時會夾雜一些其他的東西,譬如挖礦軟體所以千萬也不要,就是千萬重申剛剛就說千萬不要覺得免費的最好,然後就直接用那也有發現就是瀏覽惡意網頁或非法安裝軟體的時候被植入木馬或P2P軟體"},{"start":3003.12,"end":3029.47,"text":"那還有瀏覽的網站本身就有問題我們之前也常常發生就是有一些就是電腦都是首頁整個都被綁架了那所以所以電腦教辦主要就是請各位就是注意這些這些項目然後不要去瀏覽一些有問題的網站不要讓你的電腦有機會暴露在這些惡意網站的風險之下然後安裝軟體又被植入一些後門還是挖礦城市之類的那以上是我們的簡報謝謝"},{"start":3070.249,"end":3073.331,"text":"各位助理我們現在休息10分鐘那等下10點15分繼續開始謝謝各位"},{"start":3093.167,"end":3096.069,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3374.684,"end":3374.827,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":3732.951,"end":3753.169,"text":"各位助理大家好接下來就由我來跟各位介紹一下我們資訊處所負責的資訊應用系統我們的資訊處負責應用系統我們總共建置了大概有40幾個資訊系統但是跟委員研究室有關的可能大概不超過10個所以等一下我會針對"},{"start":3754.997,"end":3756.718,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員"},{"start":3775.194,"end":3793.428,"text":"那時候的教育訓練就會講得比較細跟操作會講得比較多然後每人都會有一台電腦可以去做一個觀看所以今天的介紹其實主要目的就是兩個而已第一個就是跟各位報告我們的資訊系統主要是做什麼用的"},{"start":3794.088,"end":3814.538,"text":"那第二個就是它的授權,因為現在每間研究室可能會有證卡,然後會有基本的5張的一個token那它的授權在不同的資訊系統裡面授權是不一樣的那有些是可以由證卡去授權,那有些可能是要跟資訊處申請的所以今天資訊系統講的重點就是這兩個"},{"start":3816.118,"end":3837.186,"text":"好那第一個各位可以看到這個應該大家都有在使用我們的這個Portal啊這個入口網做一個單一遷入所以裡面只要從這邊入口網進去的話各個Token啊或者是證卡他就不需要在這邊打密碼他只要打一次密碼就可以了或是裡面的資訊系統都我們都整合在裡面了"},{"start":3838.645,"end":3851.504,"text":"這個畫面我們這邊就會有一個卡別的識別這邊像我這邊操作是B卡這邊就可以看得到打完密碼之後就可以進入到我們的Portal的一個頁面這個頁面我們主要分三大塊"},{"start":3852.847,"end":3877.602,"text":"中間左邊跟右邊那中間的部分呢主要是公開的訊息譬如說委員的最新消息或者是各單位的最新消息那甚至還有我們的新聞的一些訊息那新聞的訊息呢是從我們國會圖書館的系統借接過來的他們會收集各大報的一些重要的資訊我們都會整合在這個裡面"},{"start":3878.991,"end":3889.748,"text":"那在左邊的部分呢,左邊的話就是我們有授權的就是token或者是證卡有授權的系統,我們會列在左邊"},{"start":3890.984,"end":3909.203,"text":"那假設今天我其中一張C卡它的授權的系統可能只可以用三個那左邊你如果是用C卡進來的話那左邊只會列三個系統那這個還有最右邊呢右邊就是會有我們的行事曆還有我們的一些資訊服務"},{"start":3910.464,"end":3932.661,"text":"那這邊資訊服務可以看得到有電子公佈欄然後也有法治局預算中心的研究成果還有常用的法規啦表單資訊那這邊跟左邊有什麼不同它的不同點就是在於右邊這些資訊的服務是跟卡別是沒有關係的不管你是用證卡還是Token"},{"start":3933.464,"end":3941.624,"text":"或者是你們的助理陣進來都可以去做一個使用的所以這個應該是每天都會進來這邊去做一個操作"},{"start":3945.298,"end":3971.957,"text":"剛剛是我們的院內資源入口網現在我穿插一個全球資訊網這邊做一個介紹因為全球資訊網跟研究室是還蠻有關的各位可以看得到我們這個全球資訊網的首頁首頁最上面有一個立法委員這個立法委員底下他會有本屆立委或者歷屆立委在本屆立委我們都有提供每一個研究室每一個委員他有一個"},{"start":3972.858,"end":3973.118,"text":"委員引音"},{"start":3990.218,"end":4013.159,"text":"這個委員的影音我們這是弄一個輪播式的因為我們的首頁就放五張但是這個五張的右邊它會有個箭頭或者是不用按箭頭它會自動的去做一個輪播那這個影片是怎麼來的呢也是從我們全球資訊網的後台由委員去做操作那後面我會針對這個部分也會去做一個介紹"},{"start":4016.637,"end":4032.412,"text":"這就是我們全球資訊網的後台這個後台就要由我剛剛第一張投影片的院內資源入口往那邊來進入進入之後每一個研究室都會有這個畫面我們可以看得到第一個有一個委員影音的維護"},{"start":4034.741,"end":4056.66,"text":"那這個維護就是各位剛剛在前一張的在中間的這個部分我可以把一些影片啊能夠上傳那最下面呢 下面這邊有委員的動態啦 新聞稿啦 委員的簡傳 或者是公聽會 記者會那這些的名詞是我們資訊處先幫各個研究室都預設好的一個名詞"},{"start":4057.501,"end":4057.621,"text":"委員影音維護"},{"start":4074.063,"end":4100.774,"text":"這個委員影音維護剛剛就是這個頁面點下去第一個功能點下去會進入到這個操作畫面這個操作畫面上面有五項功能但是這邊我只講重點功能就是有兩個第一個影片的來源然後第二個他有什麼樣的一個額外的操作的一些特殊的一個功能第一個那影片的來源有兩個"},{"start":4102.863,"end":4117.284,"text":"從我們的IVOD剪輯過來的會直接從這邊就可以直接按一個上架就上傳到我的官網了那IVOD的剪輯是我們等一下下一堂課會介紹的那他的影片是由各個委員會"},{"start":4118.988,"end":4135.447,"text":"在委員只要上台質詢的時候委員會他就會去剪那等一下也可以下載下一堂課會介紹那只要是委員會有剪輯的話我們這個畫面就會呈現只要研究室只要按一個上架他就會上傳到全球資訊網的首頁"},{"start":4137.35,"end":4165.324,"text":"還有第二個來源就是研究室它可以自己去拍攝影片上傳到這個系統那一樣上架之後也可以到我們的全球資訊網的首頁這就是第一個重點來源的部分那第二個就是可以針對影片去做一個浮水印也可以針對這個影片去設定它的上架的時間這是比較一個特殊的功能在這邊先做一個報告那詳細的話之後3月5號我們會再做介紹"},{"start":4166.823,"end":4193.464,"text":"那剛剛是在講委員的影音就是我官網首頁在中間的那個部分那如果是各個研究室的委員的獨立的一個網頁呢就是要剛剛從後台進來之後會進入到這個畫面那到底有什麼資料可以去上傳到委員的獨立的這個頁面總共有三個第一個文字跟圖檔"},{"start":4194.753,"end":4219.651,"text":"你可以上傳文字說明也可以上傳圖片那第二個呢你可以上傳檔案比如說召開一個公聽會你可以把公聽會報告上傳上來那第三個你可以做一個超連結也就是說委員他可能會有粉絲頁可能會有Facebook可以直接做一個超連結讓民眾他在首頁的時候點就可以直接連結到委員的一個粉絲頁這樣子"},{"start":4221.872,"end":4246.701,"text":"那當然上傳的時候這邊會有一些關鍵字的一個輸入啦上架下架的時間啊這些都可以再去做一個操作那圖片如果要上傳的話也會有一個大小的一個限制那這邊就要請注意一下好那剛剛有講到那我上傳的公聽會那些呢就會在我特定委員的左邊這邊他會做一個呈現"},{"start":4247.803,"end":4258.358,"text":"可以看到這個畫面 這個畫面有發言記錄跟提案記錄這個發言記錄跟提案記錄是我們先讓每一個研究室的一個畫面都有一個預設的這兩個"},{"start":4260.441,"end":4288.232,"text":"一個選項這是每一個研究室都有的那這個點下去的話會連結到我們的國會圖書館的一個網站他都可以知道說這位委員他的一個發言的紀錄有哪些然後他的提案紀錄有哪些這是預設有的那如果說我是針對這個A委員他去上傳一個公聽會的報告那在提案紀錄底下就會再多一個資料夾叫做公聽會報告民眾他就可以點選進去看裡面的一個內容"},{"start":4291.647,"end":4316.236,"text":"好那接下來這兩張投影片是額外補充的各位手上講音沒有就是在官網裡面除了剛剛我們看到有委員的影音然後還有委員的一個獨立的一個頁面那這邊特別講一下我們的法治局跟預算中心的研究成果也可以從我們的官網上面來看到那研究成果呢民眾他只可以看到大綱"},{"start":4317.862,"end":4337.823,"text":"但是時間一到的話可能法治局或者是預算中心他們會把全文的公開但是那個時間點可能就不確定了那所以民眾他只可以看得到大綱但是如果是研究室裡面甚至助理你們都可以看到這個研究成果的全文那全文要怎麼看就是從我剛剛"},{"start":4339.665,"end":4359.817,"text":"院內資源入口網的右下角那邊有一個資訊服務裡面就有法治局的研究成果還有預算中心的研究成果從那邊去點選的話就可以知道你這個身份然後進入到官網的這個頁面我們就會把這個研究成果的一個全文都把它顯示出來"},{"start":4361.38,"end":4384.869,"text":"他的路徑就是可以看到他在首頁關於立法院然後各單位裡面去選擇法治局或者是預算中心那在底下的話他們都會有研究成果這一個資料夾都可以點選下去看所以這邊舉例就是以法治局研究成果來看的話他這邊會有議題的研析法案的評估專題的研究等等這些都可以去做點選觀看"},{"start":4386.653,"end":4410.932,"text":"那預算中心的話也是一樣那預算中心他會把預算案的一個評估啦決算案的評估也會放在這個頁面給各位可以去參考那授權剛剛講到今天課程的目的第一個就是要知道系統大概在做什麼那第二個就是授權那剛剛講的這些後台的操作誰有權限可以進來第一個全球資訊網的後台證卡"},{"start":4416.772,"end":4441.633,"text":"跟5張的token我們的系統都預設都是有權限的都可以進來去做一個修改那法治局跟預算中心的研究成果誰有權限可以看到全文呢也是一樣證卡跟token但是我這邊額外補充如果各位助理證進入到我們的院內資源入口網去點選研究成果也是可以看得到全文的我這邊做一個口頭的一個補充"},{"start":4444.859,"end":4470.933,"text":"接下來就是跟各位第二洗洗相關的就是我們的行政系統行政系統舉凡要申請會議室、要派車、要物品領用等等的都會在這個系統裡面去做一個操作所以可以看到這個畫面這個畫面裡面紅色部分就是有車輛出入證的申請等等的那裡面有一個綠色框起來的是助理證的申請"},{"start":4472.481,"end":4493.75,"text":"助理證的申請 譬如說今天有一個新的助理要來那要幫他申請助理證 也是從這個綠色框裡面去做一個申請那到底誰有資格 誰有權限去申請這張助理證那這邊就是會講到授權的部分 我們可以來看一下等一下"},{"start":4495.231,"end":4516.409,"text":"證卡它絕對是有全部的權限都可以去做申請那token就是5張的token的話它全部像物品領用或醫師身體全部都可以預設都有這個權限但唯獨助理證的申請這個系統預設是沒有權限的那它要怎麼樣有權限"},{"start":4517.31,"end":4536.764,"text":"就是由證卡來去做一個授權這個不用跟資訊處提出申請由證卡自己去授權就可以了那就是由綠色的這一個申請的功能去點下去就可以授權了那接下來這一張呢是我就是準備出來就是比較"},{"start":4538.691,"end":4549.799,"text":"就是要特別提醒各位的就是派車的申請派車的申請的話當天下午5點以前他可以預約隔天一個工作天的派車"},{"start":4551.189,"end":4568.816,"text":"也就是說假設今天是禮拜四在今天禮拜四五點以前我可以預約禮拜五的派車那今天禮拜五呢我就可以預約下禮拜一的派車那禮拜五又比較特殊非但我可以預約下禮拜一的派車我也可以預約禮拜六跟禮拜天的派車"},{"start":4569.795,"end":4588.411,"text":"但是這邊有一點要特別注意就是禮拜六禮拜天因為是休假所以我們系統是只可以申請一天你申請禮拜六就不能申請禮拜天了就是兩天則一那如果說今天你是要臨時派車的話那臨時派車這邊有講到就是你七點半"},{"start":4589.272,"end":4600.98,"text":"到下午的5點45分以前你可以預約當天的一個臨時派車但是你派車的時間跟你那個預約的那個時間必須預約時間必須要提前15分鐘好讓交通科他有時間來作業"},{"start":4603.171,"end":4629.053,"text":"那再來是研究大樓一樓的會議室申請這個申請它我們系統是會是限制一個月以內只可以申請一個月以內的會議室然後申請的時候只可以一次申請兩個小時譬如說你今天申請10到12點申請8點到10點好了那10點到12點的話這邊系統就會阻擋會不讓你去做一個申請可能要由其他"},{"start":4630.054,"end":4632.295,"text":"以上就是行政系統,跟各位比較又很關切的"},{"start":4655.56,"end":4655.72,"text":"籌措品申請"},{"start":4669.197,"end":4693.497,"text":"進來一樣是從我們的院內資源入口往進來那進來之後左邊去找一個籌措品的一個畫面然後這邊有一個小圖然後這邊點選下去之後它就會讓你進入到這個申請的一個頁面那這個頁面呢譬如說我今天是用喜事籌措品的申請的話這邊就會有你取件的方式你是要郵寄的還是自取的然後這邊有"},{"start":4694.818,"end":4695.119,"text":"：第11屆立法委員"},{"start":4708.682,"end":4728.391,"text":"授權,證卡也是有全部的權限,那Token這邊比較跟剛剛行政系統不太一樣Token我們的這個系統是預設沒有任何的權限,要由證卡來去做授權那證卡能夠授權哪些的類別呢?這邊總共有五項"},{"start":4729.711,"end":4748.118,"text":"喜事籌措品的申請﹑喪事籌措品的申請﹑委員卡別﹑申請人的審核﹑下款署名的審核也就是說這五個功能我可以分別設定給不同的卡別譬如說C卡我只設定喜事籌措品的申請"},{"start":4749.383,"end":4772.518,"text":"我的E卡我只設定商事手作品的申請他是一個分別申請的一個東西那第三個特別說明一下第三個委員卡別的功能設定這個權限是很大的也就是說證卡我現在可以授權五張的token那我也可以去授權B卡擁有證卡授權的功能"},{"start":4773.559,"end":4784.532,"text":"所以這部分的話授權這個要特別注意一下我今天用證卡去授權B卡有委員卡別的功能的話也就是說B卡他也可以去授權"},{"start":4787.128,"end":4797.277,"text":"第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":4803.723,"end":4828.862,"text":"但是我們系統裡面也會有一個功能就是你可以去說之後你們研究室出去所申請的不管是喜事還是喪事這些都要經過審核都要經過e卡的審核那我這邊就設定e卡有申請人審核作業的權限所以之後都要由e卡來去做一個審核這個單子才會到我們的文讀科"},{"start":4831.014,"end":4845.092,"text":"第5個下款署名人的審核作業下款署名人他是用在代求的部分什麼叫做代求呢?比如說A委員他要申請一個喜事籌措品但是他也可以"},{"start":4846.531,"end":4870.136,"text":"幫忙B委員去做喜事綽綽品的申請所以A委員他在他的系統的後台他也去點選B委員他代求B委員去做申請那B委員他到了後台之後就要看說他哪一張的token他可以去說同意這一筆的一個綽綽品申請"},{"start":4871.591,"end":4873.154,"text":"以上就是籌措品的線上申請的概述"},{"start":4886.374,"end":4887.535,"text":"行動入口網行政業務籌措品研究成果"},{"start":4903.684,"end":4913.671,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":4932.324,"end":4932.384,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4950.899,"end":4951.279,"text":"公文電子交換系統"},{"start":4975.353,"end":4997.236,"text":"研究室都可以進入到這個系統去創新稿 去收文 去發文 去匯辦比如說今天有一個公文要跟行政院去做一個電子收發文 如果各位是用紙本的話那就沒有問題但是如果是要用電子交換的話 那就可以用這個系統去跟其他的機關做電子交換"},{"start":4998.377,"end":5023.122,"text":"但是在做電子交換之前必須要去跟黨管局去申請要不然其他行政院的其他的一些機關他不知道立法院的這個單位也不知道研究室的這個單位所以必須要去跟黨管局申請那這個申請的動作我們資訊處會去幫忙協助申請但是必須要去填一張"},{"start":5025.083,"end":5030.887,"text":"公文電子交換機關申請表公文電子交換機關申請表公文電子交換機關申請表公文電子交換機關申請表公文電子交換機關申請表公文電子交換機關申請表公文電子交換機關申請表"},{"start":5053.806,"end":5067.554,"text":"也是可以用但是就是沒有辦法去做一個電子交換所以今天可能研究室他沒有申請但是呢他就一直會等不到行政院的一個電子公文所以就是會有發生這種的情況"},{"start":5073.148,"end":5073.168,"text":"掌聲"},{"start":5094.203,"end":5120.342,"text":"相對來說比較複雜一點因為電子公文裡面的功能很多譬如說你要可不可以創簽稿啦你可不可以去會辦啦你可不可以審核啦你可不可以覺醒它的功能很多所以這個授權會有一點點小複雜但是沒有關係就是要怎麼授權都跟我們諮詢處聯繫那我們諮詢處會直接到現場跟你說你的B卡要有哪些功能我們會直接幫你做一個設定"},{"start":5124.586,"end":5136.736,"text":"接下來我們有一個人事服務系統這個人事服務系統只做三件事情這上面有寫第一個我要去查詢委員跟助理的信奉單可以來這邊查"},{"start":5139.428,"end":5161.113,"text":"公費助理加班費的申請 也是在這個系統操作委員人士資料登記表 這個在報導的時候應該人事處那邊就有說可以在這邊做一個資料的登記所以我們這個系統只提供這個三個服務 那下面就是薪資查詢的一個畫面 我就看一下"},{"start":5163.523,"end":5185.462,"text":"授權 特別用一個表格式的來做一個呈現第一個證卡當然是擁有全部的權利不管是委員的薪資 助理的薪資公費 助理的加班費都可以去做一個作業那token的部分呢token 如果你要查詢委員的"},{"start":5186.408,"end":5186.648,"text":"委員助理"},{"start":5202.385,"end":5204.146,"text":"申請公費助理加班費"},{"start":5224.238,"end":5224.398,"text":"收發系統"},{"start":5247.099,"end":5272.893,"text":"我們這邊提供了三個啦,三大類,就是最新的消息,還有收件夾今天這個研究室啊,他到底得到了哪些的包裹,哪些的信件這邊我們都會在這個系統裡面去做一個記錄,也都可以去做查詢然後第三個是招領信件,因為有些信件可能收發科他不知道是給誰的他就會在這個地方去做一個公告,這是收發管理系統"},{"start":5274.815,"end":5287.666,"text":"電子公佈欄,電子公佈欄的話其實近來是在我們Portal的中間那邊會有電子公佈欄這邊都可以去做觀看這個是沒有一個授權的限制都可以看"},{"start":5291.981,"end":5308.86,"text":"院內各個研究室會用到的資訊系統有卡別的一個權限的設定院外的服務系統這邊舉三個比較重要民眾會用得到的第一個就是我們議事暨公報資訊網"},{"start":5310.872,"end":5339.778,"text":"這個議事及公報資訊網是我們去年2月1號整合三個系統所建置的一個跨平台的整合查詢的一個系統那裡面有包含的議事就是議案然後有包含的議案然後有會議還有公報都可以在這個裡面去做一個查詢比如說今天你要查你們委員所提出來的議案也可以就從這個系統裡面議案去做查詢他可以知道說這個議案現在委員議案"},{"start":5340.418,"end":5340.638,"text":"議案會議公報"},{"start":5364.753,"end":5364.773,"text":"檢索"},{"start":5381.68,"end":5404.608,"text":"檢索出來之後要顯示我們顯示各個議案裡面我們這個系統總共提供了其實很多的資訊每一筆議案我們會提供很多的資訊那這邊會有提供了議案的名稱還有提案的單位還有聯署人是誰還有他的關係文書就是他當初他提這個議案的內容是什麼這個關係文書也會出來還有他的關聯的議案"},{"start":5405.708,"end":5430.435,"text":"會議"},{"start":5431.94,"end":5432.08,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":5446.704,"end":5459.377,"text":"就是舉辦的會議我們都會在這邊呈現但是有一些研究室他自己會舉辦公聽會那這個就不會上傳到我們的系統了我這邊所講的是院內的一個正式的會議都會在這個系統去做一個查詢"},{"start":5463.921,"end":5484.832,"text":"檢索在會議裡面我們可以檢索的欄位有哪些就是這邊所列的你可以針對名稱、室友、日期、類別、會議的類別比如說你是一般的會議還是黨團協商的會議、單位、借會次等等這邊去做一個檢索那顯示我們這邊每一場會議我們顯示的欄位"},{"start":5488.274,"end":5488.414,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":5507.332,"end":5508.593,"text":"公報公報公報公報公報公報"},{"start":5528.01,"end":5553.237,"text":"國事論壇的會編都在這個系統都在這個公報底下他都可以去做一個檢索那這個檢索是全文的檢索也就是說今天如果是Word檔裡面我們會把Word檔的字都可以去做一個文字的一個檢索所以這個比較特殊然後檢索完之後我們在關鍵字我們會用不同的顏色去標示這個是我們的公報"},{"start":5555.022,"end":5564.132,"text":"這個是我們去年2月1號所上線的一個系統但是在我們去年年底我們有將這個系統去做一個優化那這個優化為什麼會有這個優化這邊來看一下"},{"start":5570.954,"end":5592.085,"text":"這個就是我們《大公報》的一個畫面 最上面可以看到有一個全站的搜尋然後中間 議案 會議 公報 這邊都會有一個關鍵字的檢索因為之前有接到民眾的電話 他的需求其實聽起來很簡單他想要 他就問我說 他想要查動物保護法"},{"start":5593.203,"end":5613.12,"text":"的黨團協商也就是說有哪些黨團協商有在協商討論動物保護法這個法案就他找不到這看似簡單的一個需求但是他找不到他一直在議案裡面去輸入動物保護但是議案搜尋出來的結果是一筆一筆獨立的一個議案"},{"start":5615.592,"end":5642.972,"text":"他跟會議是比較不是直接的關係我為了解決這個問題啊所以我們去年年底做了一個改善今天民眾他不管他是在議案裡面檢索還是在會議還是在公報裡面檢索我們都系統都會把它做一個跨資料庫檢索的這個功能我們可以看一下這個畫面也就是說剛剛我在議案那邊檢索動物保護法"},{"start":5643.868,"end":5644.429,"text":"總共有229筆"},{"start":5662.367,"end":5686.829,"text":"那我們不但把229筆把它顯示出來我們系統還會在後台去把這229筆先去做一個分析以議案來說好了我們會針對提案的年度還有提案人還有議案的類別提案的來源等等他先去做一個分析好那假設以剛剛那個民眾來說好了他要查哪一個黨團協商是有"},{"start":5688.134,"end":5688.154,"text":"黨團協商"},{"start":5709.485,"end":5723.82,"text":"所以這個民眾他就可以知道說 原來我當初是檢索是不對的地方 所以我這邊就可以知道說這邊黨團協商有三筆 點下去之後就是黨團協商總共有三次會在討論動物保護這個議題 這個就是要解決民眾的一個困擾"},{"start":5729.093,"end":5755.575,"text":"那這個大公報系統在3月5號也會特別針對裡面去做一個解說譬如說我們在黃皮書後面因為黃皮書在預算審查的黃皮書後面啊各個單位都會把說他每一個提案他所回覆的報告他回覆報告所發文的文號都會說幾月幾號已經發文給立法院了所以這個文號也是可以在這個系統裡面去被檢索出來的"},{"start":5756.874,"end":5758.898,"text":"那3月5號我們會再特別講這一塊好那接下來的話還有開放資料服務平台這開放資料服務平台"},{"start":5769.356,"end":5771.697,"text":"研究室有認識的朋友在民間想要利用立法院議事的開放資料再去加值服務的話都可以在我們這個系統去做使用"},{"start":5792.563,"end":5798.549,"text":"那我們的開放資料總共有6大類我們提供了總共有40個資料集還有41個API那這邊底下就有參考"},{"start":5805.956,"end":5806.697,"text":"議政博物館議政博物館 中南部服務中心"},{"start":5823.42,"end":5823.72,"text":"議政博物館"},{"start":5843.82,"end":5863.631,"text":"一個數位典藏那因為他們在前一段時間把將我們第10屆的一個史料做一個彙編有上傳到這個網站裡面的數位典藏裡面就是我們在第10屆的一個成果這邊有興趣的話可以從這個網站底下去做一個觀看"},{"start":5865.687,"end":5891.332,"text":"最後就是我們的民主議政園區的網站那這個民主議政園區就有提供了一個園區的場館、古蹟、植物還有景點這些的說明那特別的是他們還有提供會議室的一個申請還有戶外空間的申請這邊都可以利用這個網站的前台如果民眾他有興趣的話都可以在這網站的前台直接去做一個申請"},{"start":5894.015,"end":5922.732,"text":"以上就是針對我們資訊系統去做一個簡單的介紹所以介紹兩個重點這個系統在做什麼用的然後它的授權有哪些如果說想要知道比較詳細的它實際怎麼操作的話3月5號跟6號我們在電腦教室每個人都會有一台電腦在電腦教室我們會做一個比較詳細的一個操作以上就是針對系統做一個簡單的一個概述那就說明到這邊"},{"start":5924.264,"end":5936.023,"text":"那我們接下來的話就休息10分鐘我們就11點03分我們在接下來今天的上午的第三個課程好那現在先休息"},{"start":6063.08,"end":6063.262,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":6545.316,"end":6545.516,"text":"資訊教育訓練課程"},{"start":6575.816,"end":6586.606,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．"},{"start":6602.159,"end":6608.562,"text":"．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．"},{"start":6631.036,"end":6640.364,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":6657.334,"end":6668.857,"text":"第6屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11�"},{"start":6681.22,"end":6687.307,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":6699.223,"end":6703.605,"text":"一場多媒體議事系統包含三大子系統顯示系統檢報系統表決系統輔助議場順利進行國事會議、問政質詢、議案審查等"},{"start":6715.458,"end":6724.881,"text":"那我們透過圖片來俯瞰我們的會議那個議場的部分那首先顯示系統的話就是在照片上面我們可以看到它的主角就是我們在議場裡面左右有兩個就是大型的電視牆那在左邊的部分通常我們會稱它是電視牆一號牆那右邊的話是我們的二號牆那這個電視牆我們可以播放的內容有哪些呢大概主要可以包含四個部分"},{"start":6741.967,"end":6761.871,"text":"第一部分就是可以播放我們會議的議程第二部分可以播放的是我們會議的現場就是它的實況的轉播畫面我們可以看到議場其實它在周圍有許多大型的攝影機可以進行現場的實況轉播第三部分就是跟大家最息息相關的就是我們有設置簡報的系統讓大家可以在簡報電腦的位置來協助委員進行質詢簡報的播放"},{"start":6768.403,"end":6793.308,"text":"第四部分的話就是我們也可以透過電視牆來呈現如果議案在表決的時候它可以即時呈現我們的表決的情況跟最後統計即時顯示表決的結果那我們左右兩個電視牆的話它其實可以播放一樣的畫面相互備援也可以播放不同的畫面例如我們可能很常看到我們一號牆可能是播放會議的議程那二號牆可能就是播放委員的問政諮詢簡報"},{"start":6797.188,"end":6809.522,"text":"在下面我們有一個設置簡報電腦的位置這個主要是在委員他們質詢的時候如果需要透過電視牆來展示一些問證的資料或是影音檔案都可以在這個部分來進行播放"},{"start":6810.663,"end":6826.432,"text":"那接下來的話是我們就是大家可能很熟悉的就是我們左右有一個備詢台跟質詢台那另外是在我們委員的桌面上都有設置表決器就是我們如果委員他們有議案要表決的時候都可以很便利的來使用那我們等一下會再進一步的說明"},{"start":6828.738,"end":6843.612,"text":"首先我們是介紹我們電視牆的簡報播放服務像禮拜二那天第一天開議的時候就有委員就在現場有詢問到說他們要怎麼來申請使用我們的電視牆來播放簡報那申請的方式其實很簡單就是只要大家可以幫我們填列這一個"},{"start":6844.993,"end":6845.374,"text":"提供電視牆的申請實用空白表"},{"start":6865.287,"end":6886.539,"text":"那只要填寫完以後委員他們簽章確認那連同要播放的簡報檔案在委員要發言的前15分鐘送到我們議場交給服務台這邊就可以了那另外我們也提供就是委員的助理我們也很鼓勵跟歡迎助理可以在委員他們要播放簡報的時候可以持助理證跟我們這個電視牆的申請表進到我們議場來就我們剛剛看到的簡報電腦的位置來協助委員進行簡報的播放"},{"start":6893.423,"end":6909.627,"text":"那主要也是因為說就是在座各位先進其實最了解我們委員他可能要諮詢的簡報內容比如說他什麼時候想要呈現哪一個畫面會有比較好的效果或是說什麼時候要換頁等等所以我們也很鼓勵大家在委員諮詢播放簡報的時候助理們可以到現場來協助委員進行操作那如果說有任何的問題的話其實大家也不用擔心因為我們簡報電腦的位置的話我們是幫各位助理就是在委員的諮詢台"},{"start":6922.577,"end":6922.857,"text":"OK"},{"start":6954.127,"end":6956.829,"text":"剪報播放剪報播放剪報播放剪報播放"},{"start":6976.002,"end":7004.242,"text":"另外一個的話就是因為我們電視牆其實它很大一座那實際上它是以16個小型的螢幕來把它組成起來的所以如果我們的簡報盡量可以做有顏色就是有底色背景的話那它顯示出來的效果會比較好假如我們用白色背景的話可能多少還是會有一些比較明顯會有一塊一塊的感覺所以我們建議大家就是可以用有顏色的簡報那這樣播放的效果會比較漂亮"},{"start":7004.822,"end":7010.004,"text":"．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．"},{"start":7026.511,"end":7031.056,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":7041.909,"end":7048.134,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":7067.529,"end":7067.669,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":7085.683,"end":7113.583,"text":"接下來我們來看一下我們這個電視牆的系統使用申請表單要怎麼做填寫那它填寫的話我們會先有申請的單位就填委員的辦公室那申請的日期就當天我們填表的日期跟我們研究室的聯絡人還有聯絡電話如果有任何的疑問的話我們都會再跟大家做聯繫那記得的話我們這個需要委員的簽章或是該辦公室的那個條戳都可以"},{"start":7113.983,"end":7141.906,"text":"那預定使用的日期就是我們會議當天大概哪一天的幾點到幾點那儲存媒體的部分的話我們就是建議大家用隨身碟的方式幫我們帶過來因為像我們電腦通常主機都越來越輕巧可能就不一定會有內嵌的那個我們讀光碟的光碟機所以建議大家可以用隨身碟那另外的話就是幫我們把就是在檔案的部分它的路徑幫我們註明清楚就是隨身碟如果我們就可以快速的找到委員他需要的檔案"},{"start":7142.866,"end":7149.588,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":7161.233,"end":7179.729,"text":"備詢臺上面就可以直接的看到我們二號牆上面委員質詢的內容那如果大家有疑問說那我們的委員他怎麼看要轉頭嗎其實不需要我們其實在質詢臺的下方有內嵌螢幕所以委員他們在質詢臺往下看也看得到我們助理幫他播放的簡報的內容就跟二號牆會是一樣的"},{"start":7183.544,"end":7187.026,"text":"國際論壇和諮詢時間勾選,聯合諮詢或諮詢的其他委員聯合諮詢有三位委員,因為議場的座位有限,原則上還是一位助理可以進到會場來幫我們進行簡報操作"},{"start":7206.856,"end":7215.067,"text":"後面的話就是我們是不是由助理操作或是委員操作以及我們有沒有使用那個委員諮詢台的提示系統就是剛剛說下面的內嵌的螢幕不過這部分我們預設都會幫大家打開讓委員也可以同時看到我們電視牆播放的諮詢簡報內容"},{"start":7225.353,"end":7241.914,"text":"在講完我們的電視牆以後接續講的是我們有一個重要的表決系統就是當我們如果有議案或是法案需要委員他們來投票決議的時候我們在議場又設置了表決系統可以及時的來將表決的過程跟結果顯示在電視牆"},{"start":7243.922,"end":7244.142,"text":"表決程序"},{"start":7262.077,"end":7277.21,"text":"委員他的桌上其實都有一個我們建制的表決器那我們把它放大顯示在這邊就是它上面一共有四顆按鈕委員他們通常會先按出席就是最左邊白色的按鈕以後他們接續就可以選擇針對這個議題他是贊成的話就按綠色那如果是反對是按紅色如果是棄權的話就是按黃色那如果委員他們在一分鐘內沒有去幫我們選案的話通常"},{"start":7287.819,"end":7294.801,"text":"﹖第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．"},{"start":7304.69,"end":7332.66,"text":"表決的結果大概就有點像我們現在簡報上面的畫面左邊這個記名表決的話就是可以看到大家會有比如說贊同的話就是他會設定綠色有幾個然後另外反對的話就紅色的有幾票另外的話是黃色棄權的有幾票那這是我們測試的案例所以就是請大家不用擔心那右邊的話如果是沒有記名的話他就是通常都會顯示是白色的就看不出來大家哪一個委員他是投票是贊成或是反對"},{"start":7337.455,"end":7355.932,"text":"那講完了我們一場多媒體議事系統以後 接續我們介紹的是五指化會議系統大家可以參考手冊的三字四跟三字五頁那顧名思義我們這個系統 它主要的功能就是提供我們院會或是各委員會他們在開會的時候 可以搭配我們的行動裝置比如說像是筆記型電腦 透過網頁或是我們會配發平板電腦 透過APP的方式"},{"start":7361.141,"end":7389.556,"text":"那就可以把我們會議相關的資料跟資訊透過我們的裝置很便利的來檢視不用攜帶厚重的會議紙本資料到現場與會那網頁的部分的話大家可以從我們的Portal入口往進去以後左邊的應用系統選單看到無紙化會議系統就可以進去使用那各位委員跟各位助理先進們的權限的話之後可以再加我們各委員會他們會幫大家來進行權限的開立"},{"start":7392.605,"end":7394.527,"text":"平板也有開發無紙化會議APP,連上院內有LY Service的Wi-Fi連上網以後點選無紙化會議APP圖示,登入圈線就可以進入無紙化會議系統"},{"start":7412.731,"end":7437.529,"text":"登進來以後大家通常會看到的第一個頁面就是我們當週的會議的相關哪幾天有什麼樣的會議的這個列表那上面會顯示我們登入者的姓名並且依照我們這個登入者他的權限去顯示他這個禮拜可能有哪些重要的會議那我們左右兩邊有一個是週次的切換鍵我們可以看到上一週或是下一週我們有哪一些重要的會議"},{"start":7439.048,"end":7456.947,"text":"在中間有兩個,一個是今天,就是當我們如果切換到上下週去看前後的形勢例的時候要再快速的切換回來今天的話,我們有個定位點,就可以點選今日就可以回到我們今天的會議相關資訊或是右邊我們會顯示整個月份的重要會議的資訊"},{"start":7458.246,"end":7478.2,"text":"中間的話當天的會議我們會用粉紅色的框框來表示出來各個會議的話我們前面會有一個不同顏色的燈號這個燈號如果是我們會議在準備中還沒開始的話會是用灰色來呈現那如果是進行中的話會是綠色的燈如果是休息中的話就是黃色的燈來呈現那如果是已經結束的話就是紅色的燈來呈現"},{"start":7480.942,"end":7482.003,"text":"當天會議的狀態,比如說我們這個會議是結束了還是準備中"},{"start":7494.585,"end":7497.206,"text":"會議單位﹚委員會在開會﹚主席﹚開會室友﹚會議地點點了特定會議以後就會進到會議內容頁內容頁可以看到會議相關的PDF檔案或是點右上方會有一個發言名單就可以看到會議各委員發言的名單和順序"},{"start":7520.509,"end":7524.012,"text":"點選未下載的部分點選未下載的部分點選未下載的部分點選未下載的部分點選未下載的部分點選未下載的部分點選未下載的部分點選未下載的部分點選未下載的部分點選未下載的部分點選未下載的部分點選未下載的部分"},{"start":7547.571,"end":7573.637,"text":"另外我們檔案很多的時候有時候一個一個下載有點麻煩所以我們也設計了一個全部下載就一鍵下載的功能大家點了以後就會把這個會議所有資料下載到平板裡面那因為我們平板有時候可能大家資料存比較多以後它的空間就會越來越佔越多所以我們旁邊也設定了一個全部清除所以如果在會議開完以後我們這個會議資料如果不需要了我們可以點全部清除那就會自動幫大家把"},{"start":7574.636,"end":7581.832,"text":"先把剛剛下載的這些檔案清除我們的釋放它的空間讓大家可能我們的空間就可以釋放出來"},{"start":7636.001,"end":7658.204,"text":"不好意思,剛剛那個有點小小當機,好。那我們全部下載完以後,剛剛講到這邊,接著我們下載了檔案以後呢,我們PDF檔案大家如果在上面要做一些會議上的註記的話,我們也有提供畫線的功能,就我們可以點選畫面上面的畫線,它就會出現顏色還有出戲的那個線條的選項,讓大家可以在上面來做我們會議的筆記。"},{"start":7659.885,"end":7659.906,"text":"會議註記備忘錄"},{"start":7677.01,"end":7688.657,"text":"講完無紙化系統,接續是委員會多媒體的系統大家可以參考手邊的粉紅色手冊3-6跟3-7頁我們這個系統提供委員在委員會開會的時候可以顯示我們剛無紙化系統裡面輸入的會議的名稱或是這個會議的狀態委員發言的名單或是委員諮詢的簡報"},{"start":7699.758,"end":7726.902,"text":"都可以透過我們的會場上面相關的螢幕設備來做顯示那通常我們各委員會呢就會都會在前方會設置一個80到85吋的顯示幕就像我們現在所在的財政委員會的位置我們身後這一台就是一個大型的顯示幕那在牆面的左右兩邊也會有懸掛55吋的輔助顯示螢幕跟質詢台還有備詢台會提供委員可以看到的桌上型的顯示螢幕"},{"start":7727.415,"end":7728.716,"text":"9樓大禮堂 配備200吋投影機其他會議室 相關螢幕設備前方設備 左右輔助螢幕設備 直巡台 背巡台上的螢幕設備"},{"start":7747.119,"end":7767.695,"text":"除了我們會場裡面的這些設備以外我們在會議室的外面就是為了提供給大家可以在會議室外面也可以瞭解我們各會議室它目前內部的會議狀況的話我們有設置了一個告示系統那這個告示系統呢它會整合包含我們院會跟委員會開會的實況轉播跟會議的資訊比如說像是我們會議的名稱那討論的議題跟現在會議的地點主持人跟委員的發言名單等等"},{"start":7774.961,"end":7801.645,"text":"通過50吋的螢幕會顯示在我們重要的入口處包含像是我們這一棟群型樓一樓的大廳電梯旁邊就有一台或是說像中興大樓委員的研究會館青島一二館我們都有提供相關的資訊版型的部分的話就是大家可能可以看到像是如果我們是院會的話禮拜二禮拜五開會的時候我們就會顯示院會的版型那它就是直循跟背循的螢幕的分割"},{"start":7802.421,"end":7820.835,"text":"另外會有下面手語的部分右邊的話我們會顯示他現在是院會然後會議的時間地點的話是在議場然後可以看到我們的發言名單那右邊委員會的版型一的話我們會有比如說兩切割的畫面三切割或是四切割的畫面那這個取決於說我們當時同一個時間在開會的委員會有多少如果說委員會兩個會議同時在開會我們就是原則上會顯示這個"},{"start":7828.799,"end":7836.385,"text":"兩個分割的畫面那如果說比較多我們就會把它分割成比較多那我超過4個的話我們當然就會用輪播的方式來做顯示那如果是我們比如說在當天的會議都已經結束以後我們也會選挑另外一種顯示的版型就是可以讓大家知道說我們各位人會當天他的會議都會議內容是什麼那狀態的話可能就是都已經散會了"},{"start":7854.107,"end":7882.899,"text":"那右邊的話比如說在中午午休的時候大家可能在等電梯也會看到我們會播放新聞然後右邊會有我們的頭條新聞那下面還是會顯示我們會議室的使用狀態讓大家可以在比如說等電梯或是在外面也可以看到我們相關的資訊那如果是休會期間的話我們顯示的就是各會議室他們目前借用的情況讓可能與會的人員在外面就可以先看到他今天要來參與的會議他是再確認一下他是在哪一個地點來做召開"},{"start":7885.889,"end":7888.77,"text":"委員會多媒體系統是議事轉播網際網路多媒體的視訊系統主要提供院會或各委員會會議實況或預報"},{"start":7903.28,"end":7909.142,"text":"．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．"},{"start":7925.623,"end":7928.324,"text":"進到院內版的系統有四大功能第一個是會議實況的功能這個功能會顯示當天所有的會議內容跟狀態比如說當天有好幾個會議在召開右邊的燈號紅色就是表示會議已經開始在播放了如果是灰色的話就是表示這個會議目前還在準備中還沒開始"},{"start":7950.45,"end":7969.306,"text":"那會議結束以後我們也可以在會議實況這個畫面透過旁邊的播放鍵來看到我們當天回溯的一些影片片段例如像我們如果點進去我們這個會議在播放的內容頁我們可以選擇是現在的直播或是說我們可以回溯去觀看我們現在正在進行中的會議可能前一分鐘或前兩分鐘我們影片的內容那右邊的話我們也會顯示同一個時間同時在做播放的各委員"},{"start":7975.171,"end":7975.531,"text":"檢報後續提供參考"},{"start":7995.818,"end":7996.058,"text":"教育訓練課程"},{"start":8012.578,"end":8033.032,"text":"我們就可以在下方直接在10個秒的位置輸入早上的10點那就可以定位到早上10點的會議內容那或是說我們想要比較快速的比如說往前跳一分鐘一分鐘來看的話我們也可以設定我們想要快轉或是倒回去的時間它的時間所以大家就是可以比較方便的轉到我們想要找的那一個發言的片段那另外第二個功能的話是會議預報我們點到這一個部分的話就可以看到"},{"start":8040.387,"end":8046.278,"text":"我們最近可能有哪一些會議那可以用主辦單位來搜尋或是用日期來排序來做檢視"},{"start":8049.551,"end":8049.891,"text":"全會議監看：全會議監看：全會議監看："},{"start":8075.686,"end":8093.188,"text":"第4個是會議隨選功能,左邊選單有提供的幾種不同的搜尋方式比如說像是我們可以以委員來做查詢,我們就可以輸入委員依照他的名字或是他的黨團或是說依照他的選區可以去找這個委員"},{"start":8094.309,"end":8103.015,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":8123.404,"end":8129.527,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":8150.789,"end":8162.837,"text":"後面的話我們還有進階查詢就是讓大家可能可以透過關鍵字那會議的關鍵字或是委員姓名發言內容就比較進階的一些查詢功能都可以快速的找到我們想要找的影片"},{"start":8163.676,"end":8180.426,"text":"最後就是委員發言片段除了剛剛在我們前面的搜尋可以下載以外我們下面的下載專區也可以提供委員的發言片段下載但是這部分也要留意大家記得就是使用委員的本人的IC憑證或是Token讓他會顯示權限不足院外版的話就是功能就比較精簡所以我們這邊就不另外做贅述"},{"start":8189.738,"end":8218.276,"text":"那接續介紹的是我們立法院的資訊服務站Kiask大家可以參考手冊的三支14頁那它的長相是長這樣子不知道大家有沒有在我們院裡的哪一個角落有發現這個白色可愛的機台其實在我們會議室的外面右方就有一台大家等一下課後可以去玩玩看那我們這個機台呢它主要設置的地點包含放在我們群閑樓189樓然後另外紅樓跟中心大樓都有配置"},{"start":8218.936,"end":8219.557,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習委員"},{"start":8233.976,"end":8245.164,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．"},{"start":8259.164,"end":8279.93,"text":"另外的話是最後我們會講到的是我們資訊設備的使用管理要點那在介紹我們的管理要點之前先跟大家報告我們這一屆為各位委員研究室配置的電腦設備我們在委員就是2月1號報到之前至少在每個研究室都已經有先安裝好兩部電腦了那如果大家後面還有需求的話也都"},{"start":8280.23,"end":8288.136,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":8306.97,"end":8335.948,"text":"又提供給大家做顏色的選擇在這個禮拜所有的委員都已經完成報到那把我們的調查表送回來所以我們後續的話就會進行第二台筆記型電腦會依照大家個人化的選擇跟平板的顏色會趕快做訂購的動作然後預計可以在3月的時候配置給大家平板的話應該比較快我們應該3月中以前就可以發送到各委員的研究室那筆電的部分因為還有它的採購需要一定的時間那我們希望3月底前可以提供給大家"},{"start":8338.831,"end":8356.527,"text":"資訊設備﹚"},{"start":8356.607,"end":8365.669,"text":"﹚第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":8380.533,"end":8386.317,"text":"﹚第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．"},{"start":8408.251,"end":8410.875,"text":"公務機密資料﹑儲存﹑傳輸﹑加密﹑避免資料外流密碼﹑不要用同一個管道﹑加密用電折件寄送"},{"start":8426.955,"end":8431.359,"text":"﹚第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":8446.462,"end":8471.91,"text":"那後面的話就是剛剛我們前面課長有提到我們可能就是在設置電腦的開機的帳號密碼的部分我們建議密碼它還是以8碼以上然後以因數字跟混合符號就是它複雜度要有一定的複雜度比較妥當另外是螢幕保護的部分的話我們預設會幫大家設定就是10分鐘就會把它自動鎖定但也提醒大家如果離開座位的話可以直接幫我們把螢幕做鎖定"},{"start":8472.351,"end":8479.251,"text":"因為如果沒有鎖定的話可能對啊其他有人如果路過的話其他我們有一些權限在裡面他可能就可以"},{"start":8479.662,"end":8489.944,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":8507.543,"end":8512.41,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":8524.009,"end":8538.274,"text":"傳送了一個有一點惡意的連結那到我們即時通訊軟體加入我們點了以後其實就有點是把駭客放進來的概念所以也提醒大家就是希望我們在如果看到比較奇怪的連結或是檔案的話在開始之前可能再多加的留意"},{"start":8541.246,"end":8550.295,"text":"那最後跟大家報告的是我們就是目前今年度的一些教育訓練的規劃我們的教育訓練的話就是剛剛我們處長有提到我們在3月5號跟6號的時候我們會針對處理面各系統就是相關的操作包含剛剛我們應用系統就是前一個科長有提到很多大家會使用到的"},{"start":8562.125,"end":8589.851,"text":"實際操作我們會有詳細的介紹那昨天也發送了教育訓練的通知目前大家報名的情況很踴躍那也謝謝大家的支持那後面如果大家有其他的需求就超過額滿的話我們也會評估再來開設下一個課程盡量讓大家都可以來參與那另外我們也定在3月的下旬有開電腦軟體的教育訓練這部分的話包含像Windows11作業系統跟大家可能會用到Office的Word、Excel或是PowerPoint的部分"},{"start":8590.305,"end":8591.906,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員"},{"start":8601.596,"end":8610.843,"text":"第12屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11�"},{"start":8627.902,"end":8636.724,"text":"後面是提供我們目前3月5號跟6號教育訓練的課程內容昨天在公文裡面有呈現給大家所以大家就是可以再做參考"},{"start":8641,"end":8665.736,"text":"接續的話是我們從委員這次換屆報到到我們3月初就是整個剛開始這個會議期剛開始的時候我們為了提供委員比較完善及時的服務所以都有設置了就是各委員的樓層他們我們會有資訊處的專人來為大家做服務所以如果有問題的話都可以直接在我們就是參考上面我們服務的專人可以致電"},{"start":8667.096,"end":8675.722,"text":"﹖第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．"},{"start":8687.148,"end":8701.336,"text":"不過這邊也可能先跟各位先進報告因為我們第一線的同仁他們可能就是收集很多問題以後如果我們可以協助大家立即處理的話我們一定就會立即的給大家協助不過因為我們處的業務服務範圍其實蠻廣的有時候一些比較專業的系統他們一線的同仁可能不是這麼清楚他們會幫我們後送到後面其他系統的專門的負責人來為大家做服務所以如果中間有一些時間的話"},{"start":8712.342,"end":8739.738,"text":"也請大家可以多多包涵那我們就是會盡快的由專人再來跟各委員的研究室來聯繫那提供相關的服務那大家也可以看到其實我們從委員2月1號報導到今天就是很常在樓層會看到我們資訊處各樓層的負責人他們就是常常穿梭在委員辦公室可能會來敲門問說有沒有其他的裝機需求啊因為我們預設幫大家裝了兩台桌上型電腦但是每個委員我們其實是有預留8台的"},{"start":8740.999,"end":8743.101,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員"},{"start":8762.83,"end":8784.768,"text":"那不曉得大家針對剛剛的課程有沒有什麼問題我們這邊可能就是陸續有收到委員他們針對剛剛就是研究室配發的設備有一些詢問就是比如說我們如果已經裝完八台電腦但是還有額外一兩台的需求的話該怎麼處理那這部分的話"},{"start":8785.428,"end":8792.59,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":8808.035,"end":8821.44,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．"},{"start":8836.286,"end":8845.154,"text":"現行沒有的話,我們出這邊也會再幫大家來確認,是不是有需要的話,我們就可以幫大家進行一些軟體的採購,就可以跟我們科這邊再做聯繫。如果大家沒有問題的話,我們還有一點點時間,那我們就線上來稍微看一下我們的Kiask系統跟VOD的系統。"},{"start":8876.843,"end":8896.979,"text":"那大家可以看到畫面上就我們剛剛講就跟大家比較有關我們一式轉播多媒體的系統那上面顯示VOD的話是我們院內的版本IVOD的話就是院外的版本那院內的話我們當然提供給我們院內同仁比較詳細的功能所以大家可以看到像我們的最新實況就是可以同時看到我們現在院會議場那邊正在開會中那紅色燈號的話就是可以點進去看我們現場的畫面另外就是我們現在在九樓大禮堂的一個教育訓練"},{"start":8905.486,"end":8910.39,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":8930.104,"end":8930.464,"text":"：第11屆立法委員"},{"start":8946.474,"end":8968.136,"text":"後面的話就是快轉跟那個往前跟往後倒退就是它可以設定我們想要快轉的分跟秒比如說我希望可以一次快轉5秒鐘那我們寫了5以後它就可以自動往前跳到5的步就是一次快轉5秒鐘那另外的話我們這邊也可以讓大家就是可以快速的就是播放的速度可以做一些選擇"},{"start":8970.031,"end":8978.009,"text":"那如果我們要即時的把它切換現在看到我們人事處現場大家的畫面的話我們就可以切換到下面人事處的這一個看一下"},{"start":8992.318,"end":8996.046,"text":"抱歉我剛剛嚇了一跳因為我們剛剛現在現場在操作就是這個電腦所以它會直接顯示我們現在電腦操作的這個畫面這樣子OK"},{"start":9002.955,"end":9006.338,"text":"會議預報 下個禮拜目前排定的一些會議全會議監看 透過九宮閣的方式議場訊號雖然不會在九宮閣顯示 但可以點旁邊 院會 就可以切換到院會現場的畫面"},{"start":9026.377,"end":9031.718,"text":"發言委員：第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習"},{"start":9055.863,"end":9062.165,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":9080.492,"end":9080.712,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":9099.685,"end":9105.53,"text":"﹐第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．"},{"start":9117.06,"end":9122.125,"text":"第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11�"},{"start":9134.275,"end":9162.029,"text":"會顯示說今天他是日期然後他的就是我們現在是第11屆的第一會期所在的位置的話我們現在是在大門進來群仙樓的部分那我們認識立法院裡面我們會顯示就是我們比如說首長的介紹會院長跟副院長的圖示另外是我們的簡介那會期有一些院會相關的資料那還有比如說像是我們之前有一些多媒體展示都會在上面會有顯示那另外第二個功能的話呢就是認識"},{"start":9163.95,"end":9192.615,"text":"參觀立法院這部分的話我們就是可以看到我們服務地點的指南然後後面跟一些我們的典藏的緊急有些珍貴的照片也在上面就提供給我們院裡面的人員可以來檢視第三個功能的話就是它會有一個公告跟新聞像是我們上面會有最新的一些新聞資訊然後各單位的最新消息或是立法院委員的最新消息都可以透過這個在我們會議外面的Kiask可以來做"},{"start":9195.076,"end":9219.894,"text":"檢視另外的話是會議的資訊像我們這邊就可以看到會議室的一些各會議室他們目前的一些就是在召開的會議那委員的發言名單比如說我們今天有一個議場同時的院會那我們就可以看到就是發言名單的部分那委員會的話也是一樣那還有議事轉播就是這邊就會連線進來可以看到我們目前的那個會議的實況畫面"},{"start":9222.957,"end":9223.158,"text":"第11屆立法委員助理研習會議"},{"start":9245.06,"end":9245.64,"text":"委員的簡介資料﹚查詢歷屆委員的資訊﹚交通資訊﹚"},{"start":9277.441,"end":9300.586,"text":"那以上的話大概就是我們這一個小時那針對我們一些應用系統跟還有跟大家最息息相關議場的簡報播放部分的教育訓練那如果大家有問題的話我的分機是5747大家都可以針對以上的一些內容有問題的話都很歡迎可以致電給我們那我們也希望可以盡量來為各位委員來跟研究室來做最大的服務跟努力那以上報告謝謝"},{"start":9315.289,"end":9338.517,"text":"各位助理同仁感謝資訊處為我們帶來精闢的解說然後我們周五有提供餐盒然後這是有6種口味然後豬肉在各位的右手邊然後中間是雞肉然後這一邊是會辣的雞肉然後再請各位自由選擇這樣子那早上的課程就到此結束然後下午我們2點再久而待航繼續接下來國衛圖書館的課程好謝謝各位"},{"start":16330.124,"end":16348.495,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16355.55,"end":16356.05,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16383.049,"end":16396.094,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16402.137,"end":16402.357,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":16431.777,"end":16432.318,"text":"沒問題的沒問題"},{"start":16459.501,"end":16465.605,"text":"委員助理研習委員助理研習委員助理委員助理"},{"start":16487.204,"end":16497.288,"text":"如果書品做這裡的時候﹖你會做這裡的時候﹖那太快的時候﹖你就拉太久"},{"start":16500.666,"end":16504.829,"text":"我怕她偶爾會說我知道了啦我會寫說慢一點我寫在下面"},{"start":16532.978,"end":16540.965,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16562.258,"end":16562.999,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16611.901,"end":16612.741,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16628.55,"end":16628.85,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16650.845,"end":16674.803,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16686.412,"end":16687.693,"text":"再一張"},{"start":16700.666,"end":16700.886,"text":"主席"},{"start":16741.461,"end":16742.221,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":16749.565,"end":16749.785,"text":"總委委員"},{"start":16778.094,"end":16778.294,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":16810.981,"end":16817.211,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16867.363,"end":16894.414,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16905.859,"end":16917.944,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16924.034,"end":16932.078,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16950.367,"end":16971.366,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16980.06,"end":17001.514,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17019.573,"end":17026.904,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17039.002,"end":17060.699,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17074.497,"end":17087.289,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17094.872,"end":17107.335,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17127.55,"end":17137.037,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17139.559,"end":17139.599,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":17165.435,"end":17180.432,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17204.65,"end":17228.04,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17242.688,"end":17243.37,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":17245.793,"end":17271.12,"text":"大家好我是國會圖書館的館長林瑞文請問在座的各位你們累了嗎謝謝你們堅持到第二天的下午我剛剛也請我們待會要授課的同仁請他們言簡意改講重點可以的話就提早下課"},{"start":17272.961,"end":17273.281,"text":"國會圖書館在哪裏?"},{"start":17292.563,"end":17312.153,"text":"國會圖書館在群賢樓的地下一樓還有群賢樓的三樓因為受限於立法院有限的一個空間所以圖書館實體的空間很小所以我們一直致力於數位典藏還有網站圖書館的開發那盡可能將各種的立法資源都集中在國會圖書館的網站中來呈現"},{"start":17321.78,"end":17331.079,"text":"除非您是要借書或是閱覽期刊報紙大概可以不用走進圖書館就可以在我們的網站中查詢到您所需要的資訊"},{"start":17334.469,"end":17357.656,"text":"以下的課程分為兩個部分第一個部分由本館的現名韓建任科員先針對國會圖書館的網站來做一個整體性的介紹接著就介紹我們使用率最高的新聞知識管理系統以及跟委員切身最有關係的立法委員問政專輯"},{"start":17359.757,"end":17360.178,"text":"中文資料庫：外文資料庫"},{"start":17377.097,"end":17379.798,"text":"實際上,圖書館數位化典藏的資訊系統和資料庫非常多,沒有辦法一一介紹,大家可以上我們的網站瀏覽或參閱書面講義。"},{"start":17395.282,"end":17397.303,"text":"總之希望大家多多善用圖書館的線上資源來協助委員問政我們現在就開始"},{"start":17421.332,"end":17439.581,"text":"大家好我是圖書館的敏涵那剛剛有館長有說明我們有分上下半部的課程那也有來介紹上半部那因為待會的操作會比較多是網站的操作方便的話您可以往前坐或是靠近左右螢幕的地方會看得比較清楚"},{"start":17444.284,"end":17470.017,"text":"那首先是要怎麼找到國會圖書館的網站呢?您在Google打國會圖書館第一個查詢結果就是我們的網站或者是上午資訊處介紹這個立法院的官網那官網右邊數來第二個國會圖書館這邊有放四個不同的資料我們用點一個點進去之後再點國會圖書館一樣回到首頁"},{"start":17471.379,"end":17471.982,"text":"或者是您習慣這邊﹖"},{"start":17476.671,"end":17501.452,"text":"關於立法院的下面還有一個院內的連結第二個也有放圖書館的連結那如果您習慣是從入口網就是立法院的內網進來的話呢我們左側會有很多不同系統那上方有一個排列設定排列設定可以自己選擇要放哪一個系統在第一個可以把圖書館往上模"},{"start":17505.629,"end":17533.845,"text":"那剛剛館長有說明我們有客製化的課程就是在圖書館服務的我要上課這裡原則上是每週三的下午但是如果您就是剛好上述的時間都不方便的話也可以撥電話給我們然後跟您約其他的時間那假設未來有新的同事進來那他錯過今天的研習也可以請他到圖書館服務我要上課這邊報名"},{"start":17536.186,"end":17552.472,"text":"因為圖書館有很多的系統就是可以幫大家節省時間所以可以推薦他使用這個資源利用的課程那剛剛館長有說我們是在群賢樓那就是跟郵局是同一棟那我要上課的部分就是群賢樓三樓三課這邊"},{"start":17555.967,"end":17578.026,"text":"好那開始介紹資源之前跟大家說明就是圖書館都是依據公報或是公報處搞去分析資料所以公報必須等公報處出刊並且我們的角色比較像是典藏的部分所以如果需要及時的資訊要麻煩大家利用資訊處上午有介紹的一世紀公報資訊網"},{"start":17580.202,"end":17602.512,"text":"那如果上午沒有聽到委一科長介紹的話是在關於立法院的院內連結倒數第三個這邊有一個異世紀公報資訊網那也可以回放看委一科長的介紹那往下看也有這個大公報系統的快速連結在這邊那回到圖書館的首頁"},{"start":17610.868,"end":17636.345,"text":"那上方有發現有不同的業情那我來一一介紹首先是立法資源有最新通過議案、議案統計還有會議紀要那最新通過議案就是今天如果在立法院三讀過後那我們這邊會寫說通過什麼法哪幾條但是您看到右邊有全文跟公佈條文的按鈕公佈條文是放總統府公報"},{"start":17638.857,"end":17648.126,"text":"那所以後面兩個按鈕必須有一點作業時間他才會長出來那全員是篡徒書館的法律系統這樣子"},{"start":17653.314,"end":17681.554,"text":"再來是議案統計議案統計的部分就是把每一屆每一會期通過哪一些議案做一個數據化的呈現那即便下面是數字您也可以點鈔連結出去比方說我點第10屆第8會期的51筆法律案那點過去51筆就已經整理好了然後雖然是數字的呈現我們這邊的搜尋框還是可以使用"},{"start":17703.857,"end":17723.909,"text":"我剛剛檢索時安 它還是會跑出相關議案 有關於時安的議案那主策委員有說尋得分析 您也可以直接切年度去看所以 雖然這邊是數字 檢索框還是可以作用再來會議紀要的部分 就是開會的決議的一個摘要"},{"start":17727.256,"end":17742.344,"text":"立委問政我們有提供委員會的名單每一屆委員會的名單你可以發現有紅色的圖示那就是召委我們有特別做標示那點委員的名字會串聯到待會會詳細的介紹的問政專輯那再來是接會期對照表有把每一屆每一個會期的期期日都放在這邊"},{"start":17757.136,"end":17758.402,"text":"那焦點議題是有關於總質詢都會報告還有國事論壇"},{"start":17763.847,"end":17773.049,"text":"總諮詢的部分我們有放公報的全文還有連結資訊處的IVOD可以直接瀏覽部會報告就是行政首長來開會的書面資料像是今天的院會的全文院長來報告的全文部會報告這邊就有放"},{"start":17792.373,"end":17798.598,"text":"我們盡可能是在當天的週五過後或是下午就把這個全文放出來國事論壇的部分一樣有連結公報的全文還有FOD"},{"start":17808.601,"end":17823.341,"text":"立法院智庫 總共有22個 使用之前可以先點簡介簡介會看每種系統要收入範圍 收入哪些資料"},{"start":17824.942,"end":17845.646,"text":"那你會發現說有立法院智庫還有中外文字庫的差別在哪裡立法院智庫是立法院產生的資料可能是公報或是質詢等等的然後分成不同的系統那我們目前是22個中外文資料是外購的資料庫那待會書評專員會再更詳盡的介紹我點第一個動態資訊網"},{"start":17851.647,"end":17851.667,"text":"東派資訊網點開"},{"start":17862.357,"end":17880.796,"text":"這邊因為法案屆期不連續的關係所以動態資訊網只會有當屆的資料那因為11屆委員剛上任所以你會發現說資料比數怎麼那麼少那原因是因為這邊目前只會提供11屆那如果12屆上任的話這邊就是11屆的資料就沒有了就放12屆這樣"},{"start":17883.184,"end":17897.941,"text":"立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．"},{"start":17904.248,"end":17923.233,"text":"主管業務機關的法案就是行政機關以行政機關為主體然後把你列每一個不同的圓圈圈那這個數字都可以直接點出去就是有相關的資料這樣子那等時間久一點這邊會有比較豐富的資料那再來是法律系統法律系統算是圖書館蠻受到稱讚的系統"},{"start":17934.417,"end":17955.669,"text":"好 那在這邊我先以槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例做舉例點開之後呢 我們會在現行條文的這個版本那我們左側還有提供每次不同的版本那你點開之後 它會跳出一個版本條文的頁簽"},{"start":17956.79,"end":17981.769,"text":"那要提醒在座的各位您在做電腦複製貼上的時候必須注意說你的亮燈在哪裡以免就是物質那我再切回現行條文來做舉例中間可以看到我的立法歷程跟移動條文那剛好這一部法律還沒有附帶決議如果某一部法律有通過的時候有附帶決議這邊還會再長出一個按鈕那以現行條文的這個立法歷程做舉例"},{"start":17987.526,"end":18013.92,"text":"可以看到說我們把每一次的一讀的資料都有放在這邊然後中間的立法紀錄就是公報紀錄右邊有每一次一讀的關係文書底下還有審查報告那如果你覺得一讀很多畫面看起來很累你可以直接選階段的球球那它就只有挑那個階段的資料那我們再點全部就都會再羅列出來"},{"start":18017.282,"end":18038.285,"text":"那這邊也有三讀日期公佈日期施行日說明等等那再來異動條文的部分呢我這邊是點線型版我版本條文是點85年這個版本但是因為我亮燈在線型條文所以異動條文他是跟前一個版本做對照喔"},{"start":18038.966,"end":18052.643,"text":"所以這個新舊條文對照表點開你會發現說不是剛剛的那個85年是109年也就是112年現行版的前一個版本做對照那您可以直接就很方便的下載我的檔"},{"start":18059.808,"end":18084.43,"text":"再來我們有一個相關條文的這個功能就是您在收入這部法律的時候如果有一些其他的法要一併看的話就有這個很棒的功能點開之後你會發現說槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例的第6條它引用了第4條然後它又被第6條之一所引用"},{"start":18085.251,"end":18094.356,"text":"那因為剛好第6條它是通一部法律當中去引用你可能比較沒有感覺那我以刑法做舉例"},{"start":18117.049,"end":18135.934,"text":"刑法第19條 它被非常多不同的法律所引用它有被刑事補償法 保安處分執行法 犯罪被害人權益保障法等等的不同法律所引用所以在修法的時候 用相關條文的這個按鈕就很方便"},{"start":18136.474,"end":18147.848,"text":"那可能大家有用法務部的全國法國資料庫目前是還沒有相關條文的這個功能所以如果要使用的話可以利用圖書館的法律系統"},{"start":18152.879,"end":18173.006,"text":"我們再回到槍砲彈藥盜竊管制條例會發現說我這邊有一個再查詢的功能那要提醒大家就是徒書館的立法院的系統它是使用布林邏輯去檢索跟你平常用Google直接不同的關鍵詞用一個空白鍵去做處理是不一樣的"},{"start":18183.274,"end":18211.386,"text":"那我剛剛請說的是走私偶爾彈藥那就是這部法律當中條文有符合走私或者符合彈藥其中一個都可以屬於我的命中條文的比數那您這邊也可以用AND那就是兩個條件都會符合才會跳出命中條文或者是用NOT就是不要混了那個關鍵詞那要注意的是你的英文跟前面跟主語兩邊的詞要用半形的空白鍵"},{"start":18217.25,"end":18232.064,"text":"那左邊呢還有條次那就是每一次修正的條號都羅列在這邊法條嚴格就是按條文順序從第一條到最後一條的制定到修正也是按照順序羅列出來"},{"start":18235.318,"end":18237.879,"text":"以上就是法律系統的介紹"},{"start":18256.613,"end":18266.839,"text":"好,接下來看質詢系統質詢系統我們有收院會質詢﹚還有委員會質詢那焦點質詢的部分呢﹚你可以去key你的質詢的關鍵字"},{"start":18279.387,"end":18308.055,"text":"那就是不同種類的資訊有長照我剛剛Key的關鍵詞就會幫你頁簽分類好那左側就是也有查詢分析結果你可以直接點年度﹑法名稱﹑等等那一樣就是徒書館立法委員開頭的這些系統都可以使用布林邏輯去做檢索好 資訊委員的部分呢我們也可以直接查委員的姓名"},{"start":18316.954,"end":18318.795,"text":"只要是立法院開頭的系統監索邏輯都差不多這樣子"},{"start":18336.84,"end":18338.782,"text":"新聞系統委員會公聽報告影像系統"},{"start":18353.666,"end":18372.448,"text":"那這邊影像打開呢 右邊有做目次 可以直接做點擊那要提醒大家 這個委員會公聽會報告影像系統是只有收委員會他主辦的公聽會如果是委員自己主辦的公聽會報告 我們這邊沒有收入"},{"start":18377.972,"end":18395.772,"text":"接下來是長順委員會會議報告影像系統一樣影像點開右側都可以直接做目次的連結那會議報告呢就包含有通過該委員會通過哪一些議案還有委員會的議事錄啊考察活動等等"},{"start":18401.96,"end":18405.488,"text":"那這個就是立法院人資庫的介紹那這類人資庫待會書評專員會介紹更常用的"},{"start":18414.493,"end":18436.898,"text":"館藏資源有憲政特長、國民大會、早期國民大會的不同系統國民大會在2005年結束之後,典藏的業務是由立法院承包所以我們有把書面資料數位化之後開發不同的系統去典藏後面是館藏系統,是下半部的課程"},{"start":18440.819,"end":18444.801,"text":"再來是 圖書館服務底下有一個出版櫥窗好 它現在有一點問題那我直接說明 如果您 跳出來 好"},{"start":18469.795,"end":18478.727,"text":"管訊呢是有包含圖書館的各項資源的使用統計啊新書介紹等等那立法"},{"start":18484.056,"end":18504.18,"text":"好稍後一下網路有點慢好立法報上資料專輯呢他是以重大議題為主軸收集相關的新聞比方說有點能源政策那這個就是新聞的債務那要特別注意的是因為新聞有著作存法的關係所以這個論外是看不到的"},{"start":18508.314,"end":18518.119,"text":"還有法規資源引借那就是以法律的主軸收國內外的法律期刊論文集結成冊大家可以再自行參考關於本館這邊有一個閱覽須知借書的部分是在群神樓的地下室一顆那邊借閱之前我們可以先參考一下我們的借閱規定"},{"start":18539.778,"end":18543.801,"text":"再來是回到圖書館的首頁右上方呢有行動板"},{"start":18546.249,"end":18572.076,"text":"行動版點開的畫面長這樣子那要說明的是行動版因為設限於您是用手機或平板去瀏覽所以這邊的資料量我們沒有放那麼多新聞資訊的部分我們是放一個禮拜內的那其他法案、議案相關的資料我們是放當屆所以如果您要就是找資料的話要麻煩您拉到下方再切回電腦版"},{"start":18579.718,"end":18579.873,"text":"本集完"},{"start":18586.054,"end":18611.427,"text":"中間有文播區就是放圖書館的追星消息比方說如果有新系統上線或有一些新書以及如果某一個系統要維護的話我們會把時間公告在這邊還有一些首頁快捷的功能剛剛的資源都必須點到第二層我們把常用的像是追星通過議案部會報告等等放在國會焦點資訊"},{"start":18613.408,"end":18614.309,"text":"問證專輯：立法院智庫：新聞系統：館藏系統："},{"start":18634.673,"end":18649.524,"text":"那如果您在使用網站還是會有一些疑惑可以使用最上方的查詢指引那我們有把比較常被問到的系統就是做一個螢幕錄影告訴您怎麼操作這樣子好 這個是我錄的如果有需要可以多多參考"},{"start":18663.208,"end":18690.066,"text":"那下面還有一些常見問答那如果還是沒有辦法從查詢之影解決您的問題的話也可以撥電話過來好那再來是有關於會員登錄的部分這部分比較容易大家打電話來有問題那請大家稍微注意聽一下在座的各位還有委員是圖書館會員的當然會員也就是說不用再另外申請了但是要做一個帳號開通的動作"},{"start":18693.027,"end":18720.638,"text":"委員的開通方式跟助理不一樣委員因為資訊處有提供他6個公務信箱那他的長相應該類似像是Ly12345A然後後面就是小老鼠ly.gov.tw那因為有6個我們會把他的帳號密碼的信寄到他的A公務信箱那他收到那一封信之後用裡面的帳號密碼登入再按修改資料"},{"start":18722.018,"end":18722.798,"text":"：第11屆立法委員"},{"start":18746.308,"end":18754.906,"text":"然後這邊有個會員服務點進來之後呢藍色這邊有國會助理然後你們點藍色的按鈕"},{"start":18759.063,"end":18779.45,"text":"點開之後呢就是做姓名、人工編號等等基本資料的填寫確認送出之後他會再叫你填那個email跟電話那你就會到你填的那個email信箱去收你的一個亂數密碼那一樣做登入之後呢再到修改服務改成你的慣用密碼"},{"start":18780.53,"end":18789.547,"text":"那這邊有一個要補充的是如果您是續任的助理然後你有換辦公室的話還是必須做重新開通的一個動作"},{"start":18800.563,"end":18828.661,"text":"那什麼時候需要會員登入呢?如果你是在院內使用院內的電腦﹖因為有認IP﹖所以大部分的資源﹖其實你已經可以使用了但是在家﹖我們會視你為一般民眾﹖所以你看到的資料會少很多在院外就麻煩各位先登入會員那或者是你已經在院內﹖但是你要看一些期刊的部分﹖他也會挑出登入的視窗"},{"start":18829.501,"end":18836.95,"text":"或者是使用個人化的服務像是訂新聞、訂電子包或是你要借書等等也是必須要額外的登入"},{"start":18846.77,"end":18874.012,"text":"接下來介紹的是我們也很受到大家喜愛的新聞系統在首頁會員專區底下這邊有連結在說明之前呢要告訴大家因為新聞系統有版權的關係然後受限於著作權法所以不開放任何人士使用如果您就是有在使用那些新聞的話呢不能任意的轉載"},{"start":18883.7,"end":18897.658,"text":"好點開會預設是在平面網路新聞的這個模組然後現在我們看到的是線上日報那你可能會覺得很奇怪為什麼這邊有寫網路新聞我想要一起看可是這邊沒有網路新聞的夜間"},{"start":18898.57,"end":18914.311,"text":"那現在頭條新聞是只有平面報紙才有頭條新聞的這個概念那我們切換到每日新聞它就是會有網路新聞的這個疫情你就可以直接看那再來是很熱門的全白影像"},{"start":18916.348,"end":18936.681,"text":"我們從2017年就陸陸續續有買各大報的全版影像所以你點進去任意報之後你上面可以切換報筆那你右上方也可以去切早點的日期那常常有人問說我們有沒有買地方版答案是有我們來看一下"},{"start":18953.319,"end":18961.071,"text":"即便我們在北部沒有買地方版﹐可以看到雲加南﹐高屏地區的新聞﹐解析度也是非常的好﹐"},{"start":18970.509,"end":18983.426,"text":"立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆"},{"start":18991.438,"end":19005.63,"text":"點開之後呢假設我看第一筆的文字新聞我想要知道說他是在報紙的哪一個版面我們很貼心上方有一個全版影像就是把這一則新聞的那一頁報紙都載入出來"},{"start":19010.575,"end":19025.096,"text":"那因為綠色是看到當天的新聞嘛我們也可以依姓名點這個綠色專檔依姓名看委員就是上任以來的所有的新聞的比數那如果你要看10屆以前的我們這邊還有歷屆委員"},{"start":19029.076,"end":19048.977,"text":"那那些委員呢我以第一筆恐人級委員做舉例我們有做他這四年以來的一個新聞的線圖那這個線圖你也可以就只保留單一年度去看這樣子那如果你覺得太占版面空間我們這邊有一個圖表開盒可以把它關起來"},{"start":19054.693,"end":19076.614,"text":"那再來立院報導的部分就是跟立法院相關的新聞那我們左側有做一些首長的一個連結或是各委員會的連結都可以直接做點選還有府院新聞也就是總統府在另外四院那各部會的首長也會羅列在左邊"},{"start":19079.315,"end":19088.502,"text":"法案追蹤就是把日文法案新聞做一個打包那這邊法律全文就是串聯法律系統我們圖書館的法律系統選區語情的部分因為新北市比較多區我點新北市我們有做到市府新聞、議會新聞然後當然選區立委可以從這邊直接點那這邊也很細膩的做到區商政新聞的比數"},{"start":19111.672,"end":19118.296,"text":"政黨動態就是政黨的新聞會放在這邊那左側是有成立黨團的黨我們也做一個連結各國媒體資料庫就是剛剛有說我們有買一些外購一些中外文資料庫那跟新聞有相關的我們直接做連結在這邊你就不用再回到圖書館那邊去點了比方說有聯合報、經濟報、端傳媒、風傳媒還有紐約時報、華爾街日報等等"},{"start":19147.611,"end":19174.198,"text":"那這邊有一個查詢的部分之前有部分的使用者有誤會中間有一個查詢框那有的人直接從中間的查詢框查詢他會找不到資料原因是因為我是在亮燈的這個頭條新聞的33筆裡面去做一個查詢那如果你要找更多的新聞其實應該要點到每日新聞然後今天的每日新聞是1326筆去做檢索"},{"start":19177.168,"end":19187.476,"text":"那比較保險的是你要在新聞系統檢索新聞可以用右上方的全站查詢那這樣才是全部的新聞都可以直接一次查那再來是有兩個蠻好用的功能一個是簡報師的部分"},{"start":19224.117,"end":19246.114,"text":"數位簡報室呢就是假設我今天在瀏覽新聞的時候那我覺得這一兩筆一跟二我想要收藏那我就勾選起來之後加入簡報室那你可以設你主題資料夾的名稱那我這邊已經設好了我就點進去然後再點到數位簡報室"},{"start":19247.775,"end":19273.85,"text":"那這邊就是我剛剛勾選的新聞所以有點像是你的數位新聞筆記這樣你可以分不同的資料夾那第二個是隨選訂閱的功能那就是訂新聞到你的email信箱那你可以先點我要訂閱然後會建議各位先把委員的新聞訂起來訂閱主題這邊就是你的email的主址"},{"start":19275.839,"end":19300.138,"text":"新增之後我們選立委專輯：可以直接勾選委員的名字然後送出後面的都可以直接做一個勾選的動作也可以做自訂項目的部分我之前有自訂長照勾選自訂項目之後這邊有全文查詢一樣使用布林邏輯去檢索"},{"start":19302.782,"end":19330.124,"text":"那要特別提醒的是就是這邊就是因為一封信最多收錄一百筆的新聞所以你對很多不同的議題如果感興趣的話你要分開設定那這個是你收到email的長相他這邊有說每一訂閱主題最多寄送一百筆新聞資料然後點新聞標題就可以開啟新聞全文的連結"},{"start":19342.799,"end":19359.784,"text":"接下來要介紹的是問政專輯問政專輯我都把它稱為一個委員的懶人包讓我們點選立法精英那因為11屆的委員資料比較少一點我以第10屆的柯建銘委員做舉例"},{"start":19386.012,"end":19393.678,"text":"這是第10屆科委員的基本資料我們也可以因為他擔任比較多屆委員我們也可以點早期的資料來看看這是他之前的照片我們以第9屆萬證成果來看"},{"start":19412.639,"end":19439.441,"text":"好那你會發現說這邊有不同的圓球就是收錄委員不同的資料好比方說有新聞報導諮詢等等那要提醒大家特別注意的是每一個圓球是圖書館不同的系統匯進資料或者是像有串聯諮詢處IVOD所以因為是不同的系統匯入資料會有一點點的時間落差"},{"start":19440.061,"end":19447.255,"text":"如果你今天想要看的是委員一早發生的新聞會建議先到新聞系統那這邊的新聞報導會比較慢一點點匯入"},{"start":19452.907,"end":19473.164,"text":"委員質詢的部分我們一樣很貼心的有分不同質詢的月前然後也有串聯資訊處的IVOD會議發言的部分我們也有放公報指定委員的名字已經把委員發言的那一頁的公報切出來了就非常方便"},{"start":19476.095,"end":19504.043,"text":"法律提案跟臨時提案的部分都有直接分主題案人跟臨時提案人的業情那你也可以看按多比翔木看法案的細節個人論註的部分就是我們圖書館館藏系統找得到委員的書那如果有新任的委員他有著作然後我們沒有典藏到的話歡迎來訂然後告訴我們我們會去採購跟典藏"},{"start":19507.625,"end":19518.258,"text":"那委員影音的部分呢一樣有串資訊處的IVOD可以供大家參考所以這裡比較像是委員資料的一站式的檢索"},{"start":19523.451,"end":19546.384,"text":"會發現說有大的查詢框跟小的查詢框它的差別在於大的查詢框它是每一種不同的資料所有的筆數加起來去找你的關鍵詞小的查詢框就是你亮哪一個紫色燈的那一類的資料就是在那裡找比方說我按法律提案這邊就是法律提案當中的82筆去監索"},{"start":19548.922,"end":19572.583,"text":"那你也可以直接點O如果委員擔任很多屆那就是跨界的檢索那要注意的是中間的檢索框我們只能我們可以按Enter或是按滑鼠點查詢都可以檢索但是右側小的查詢框必須按滑鼠去點擊這邊沒有辦法按Enter去做檢索以上是問證專輯的介紹"},{"start":19577.395,"end":19595.965,"text":"復習一下這些圖書館的首頁我們比較常被大家稱讚或利用的是這邊法律系統 新聞系統然後這個立委問政專輯可以把它當作是委員資料的懶人包立法院智庫系統的檢測必須使用布林邏輯"},{"start":19600.427,"end":19615.211,"text":"就是用and or or not去串不同的關鍵詞那第一次使用會員的時候記得做一個會員開通好那以上就是上半部課程的介紹那我們休息休息到15分鐘會多少55分2點55分謝謝"},{"start":19637.218,"end":19637.84,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19684.761,"end":19706.033,"text":"謝謝啦這個是他們前面剛剛去拿的 剛好就已經吃了你要去休息一下也可以的不用啊 不用休息了講完是有種輕鬆的感覺對對對好生命喔"},{"start":19716.805,"end":19727.495,"text":"那個 重的吧 做得很好我好像把字用大一點 要不然我怕我找不到字大大大 大小大小"},{"start":19762.18,"end":19763.962,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20465.376,"end":20483.209,"text":"在座的長官及各位同仁大家好我是國會圖書館的舒平那接下來的時間呢就會由我來為各位介紹圖書館的資源那在開始正式的課程之前因為剛剛大家應該就是剛聽到國會圖書館的網站然後對圖書館印象應該是包含法律系統動態立法動態系統跟質詢系統等等的"},{"start":20494.517,"end":20511.97,"text":"那這些的話是我們立法院出版公開的政府資訊那大家在查詢的時候就會是主要是我們立法相關修法相關之後的產出的結果就會在那邊註說是提案或者是公聽會的報告 會務報告"},{"start":20514.071,"end":20535.24,"text":"那但是在我現在這個地方的話可能就是先問問看大家以往對圖書館的印象我想應該不外乎就是以前去圖書館都會是公共圖書館嘛就是借還書或是借還一些期刊啊雜誌那甚或是在大學的時候可能就是教授有指定一些必須要使用的資料庫然後要查詢資料庫裡面的期刊文獻內容"},{"start":20539.162,"end":20539.603,"text":"管藏查詢系統"},{"start":20558.38,"end":20573.099,"text":"就是基於輔助立法工作專門圖書館這個角色那我們去搜羅了各式各樣跟法律﹚跟政治相關的典藏的館藏資訊提供給大家"},{"start":20573.92,"end":20599.239,"text":"那期刊文獻系統當然也是承接就是剛剛的觀察員系統觀察員系統可以查詢到所有我們的典藏的資料那期刊文獻系統呢是我們基於就是立法工作的需求然後在著作權法的規範上面那我們有搜羅了一些也是一樣法律政治相關期刊文獻但是是由本館自行掃描建黨製作的"},{"start":20600.66,"end":20628.353,"text":"所以等一下在介紹的時候這部分期刊文獻系統請大家注意使用的時候必須要是在院內而且必須要登入我們的帳號那同樣的跟剛剛講的新聞知識系統一樣就是大家在使用上面可能就不好就是再去轉載或者是直接傳給就是其他的使用者那接下來的話是中外文資料庫等一下也會介紹給大家就是我們有採購的中文資料庫跟外文資料庫"},{"start":20630.563,"end":20658.705,"text":"先用我們的簡報說明一下我們館藏查詢系統的路徑第一個路徑是在剛剛首頁有一個館藏資源的部分頁前那下方就有一個館藏查詢點了之後就會是我們的館藏查詢系統那第二個路徑的話一樣也是在我們的國會圖書館首頁下方就有一個館藏查詢我的書房同樣點入就可以進入到我們館藏查詢系統"},{"start":20660.186,"end":20660.467,"text":"那在簡報上面現在大家看到這張是在您講義的第20頁"},{"start":20668.001,"end":20691.69,"text":"可以先翻一下這邊我小小調整因為知道說大家就是下午精神可能有點渙散可能比較想要馬上知道說那相關於我們的借閱權限部分是有什麼樣的規範那這裡介紹一下我們圖書可以借閱30冊的額度借期是30天那過期期刊當期期刊是不提供外借的過期期刊的部分是10冊那是7天"},{"start":20694.171,"end":20713.773,"text":"這些圖書跟期刊 假設您介約當中就是因為工作需求需要延長介約的話我們的續借額度都是兩次但是要特別注意的是說當這些資料後面有被其他的使用者預約或者是說當它其實已經預期了也就是工作非常忙碌沒有注意到時間已經超過的話"},{"start":20716.155,"end":20727.058,"text":"那就沒有辦法在線上直接辦理續解就要麻煩您再把書拿到現場還了之後如果後面沒有人預約的話才可以現場直接再解"},{"start":20729.042,"end":20737.685,"text":"那預約跟調閱的部分是各有5冊那等一下也會跟大家說明就是預約是什麼時候預約調閱是什麼時候調閱也都有實際的就是範例可以提供給大家那在預約跟調閱當中假設您有做了就是已經有做預約調閱的話那記得我們的信都會寄到您現在就是剛剛網站會員開通的時候有登錄的那個email"},{"start":20758.152,"end":20785.421,"text":"所以要記得那個e-mail就是最好不要是可能久久才開一次的公務信箱不然這樣就很有可能會錯失就是通知取書的時間那到時候您可能就必須要再重新預約或調約一次那接越權限這個地方介紹給大家之後我們實際再來看一下我們的網站那剛剛有講到是網站上方有一個管藏資源這裡有一個管藏查詢我們可以直接進入"},{"start":20787.571,"end":20791.045,"text":"好點進來這就是我們的館藏查詢系統"},{"start":20797.648,"end":20825.577,"text":"可以看到現在我們主要的版面就是分成上、中、下當然右上角還有我的書房好書推薦跟如果今天的課程結束過後還有一些操作上的問題或是不熟悉想要確認那可以看操作說明或是當然可以直接聯繫圖書館這邊那再由我們再為您解答那正中央的最上方就是最上面這一條呢是我們的分頁的主題式的頁簽"},{"start":20827.698,"end":20849,"text":"管藏查詢一開始預設就是查所有的實體的管藏還有就是電子資源等等就是實體管藏電子資源那要說一下的是說這裡的電子資源可以查到什麼程度呢是每一個剛剛有提到的有採購的資料庫嗎其實不是因為我們主要能夠匯入到管藏查詢系統的"},{"start":20850.461,"end":20852.202,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員"},{"start":20867.987,"end":20882.646,"text":"所以如果舉凡是像法規法律或是一些即時的新聞這些沒有辦法直接匯入到我們系統的就要請大家在稍後的資料庫介紹的部分直接連結到資料庫去進行使用"},{"start":20884.341,"end":20892.269,"text":"下方是新書通告 等下會講檢索 下方是新書通告 新書通告的部分是30天內上架的資料 會在下方 大家會看到它其實一直是在輪播的狀態當然等一下也可以直接到新書通告頁面去看 就是假設在今天課程過後 大家工作真的是非常的忙碌"},{"start":20906.323,"end":20918.489,"text":"沒有辦法直接來圖書館看看最近有上哪一些新書但也沒有關係想到的時候就點開館藏查詢系統看一下新書通告就可以馬上掌握到我們目前圖書館最新上架的圖書那在這裡呢先檢索一下給大家看看"},{"start":20932.438,"end":20961.355,"text":"好直接舉例就是查立法院看我們慣常查詢系統可以查到多少的資料那有2154筆大家可能看到有很多而且其實有一些可能是相關於就是各個國家的那要在這些資料當中查找到自己真正需要的資料可能想必要花一點時間過濾這時候我們左邊就有查詢結果分析那大家可以依照自己的"},{"start":20964.571,"end":20982.537,"text":"大家可以依照自己的需求就看一下資料類型是不是有符合例如說您現在沒有辦法到圖書館來你想要直接找一些限定是在資料庫或是電子書的部分那就可以在這個地方就是點選那我們就會直接限縮到這種資料類型裡面"},{"start":20983.317,"end":21009.343,"text":"那或者是說呢您有就是想要看那立法院是不是有什麼特定的法名稱或者是有立委的著作或者是圖書相關的也可以在這個地方進行限縮那這裡呢是我們的查詢結果分析是其中一個限縮結果的方法那另外一個限縮的方法除了進階查詢之外我們現在這裡有一個小框可以提供給大家進行再查詢"},{"start":21019.184,"end":21025.614,"text":"所以我們在這個小框進行再查詢之後來看看就是我們目前的中秘書長的著作"},{"start":21030.322,"end":21056.696,"text":"我們點開這個小小的填字喔這是插在哪裡剛剛那個是資料的條列所以大家可以看到現在就是條列式的告訴大家說有哪一些題名那作者、出版者、出版年這樣子那假設說你現在直接想要看說這本書現在可以借嗎?或是要預約嗎?就想必是要一筆一筆點開但其實這時候如果你直接點選填字我們就可以就是以詳目提供給大家看"},{"start":21057.236,"end":21057.456,"text":"國會議事策略101"},{"start":21078.027,"end":21100.627,"text":"他的管藏地是在我們現在這棟樓的B1就是我們一顆主要的管藏地那鎖書號是多少假設您要就是直接到現場找書的話記得要先把這個鎖書號抄下來或者是將這個畫面就留在您的手機那方便直接就拿著您的手機來書庫裡面找書但借閱狀況就是正好被借走了好"},{"start":21101.488,"end":21112.36,"text":"那這時候你再看看是不是真的是必須要這一本呢還是下面有其他就是可以替代的書現在預約的人後面還有兩位這本立法院職權行使法逐條試論正好都蠻多人的來再看看好感覺這個國會議事策略點開書封可以看到什麼呢可以看到目次"},{"start":21123.912,"end":21144.948,"text":"這時候就可以確認說這本書除了書名提供給您的資訊之外那目次部分可以確認一下這些內容是不是您需要的感覺有 你看分案攻頂然後進負二讀不予審議並按審查等等的感覺非常的符合需求所以就可以進行剛剛有講到的"},{"start":21146.049,"end":21146.87,"text":"御約御約御約"},{"start":21177.17,"end":21190.377,"text":"好的那這個是一個不好意思重新一次這個是一個預約的範例那接下來我們再來看看什麼時候會需要調閱呢我使用現代契約法律檔案這本書提供給大家參考"},{"start":21207.355,"end":21228.412,"text":"我們看到這本書 《現代契約法律檔案》 我想借正好有兩本耶 其實不只一本但是剛剛有說到 因為其實我們的館藏受限於空間所以我們的B1其實 空間已經放了很多的新書了新進的圖書我們都會先到B1 就是提供大家可以就近的取用"},{"start":21228.832,"end":21228.932,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":21252.921,"end":21254.744,"text":"沒有辦法等 我馬上就要好 這個時候我們把滑鼠點到這個上面 等一下喔"},{"start":21268.819,"end":21289.193,"text":"這個字有點小我直接唸給大家就是滑到上面之後假如我們要調閱上面會寫說資料調閱約要7天這7天主要就是因為他在新店那我們其實圖書館一般會到新店調閱取書的時間是在星期四的下午"},{"start":21289.873,"end":21308.366,"text":"所以如果您幸運的話星期四早上正好調閱了一本書其實下午大概5點或是就是明天早上你們就會馬上收到通知取書信相對來講其實等待時間就只要一天但如果就是正好因為我們取書的時間是正好你星期五預約的話就可能要等的稍微久一點點但也比3月18號才能夠拿到這本書還要相對的快非常多所以這個地方我一樣給它按調閱"},{"start":21321.047,"end":21331.808,"text":"可以看到現在這本書我也調閱成功了而且排序是第一位也是在圖書道館的時候就會有顯示可借保留日是到什麼時候"},{"start":21335.424,"end":21354.569,"text":"不好意思我一直不小心把它關掉在我們剛剛有預約跟調閱之後就是預設現在目前其實大家已經有一些借書還書的紀錄了跟經驗了這個時候我們就很需要使用到現在右上角我的書房"},{"start":21355.572,"end":21357.594,"text":"借書清單借書清單我們往下看如同剛剛跟大家說我們主要是分圖書和期刊兩個部分圖書總共是30冊那目前因為已經借了4冊所以可借26冊"},{"start":21376.409,"end":21385.295,"text":"那期刊的部分呢總共是10冊可是因為之前有預期歸還兩冊的關係所以現在目前額度就已經扣掉那兩冊那兩冊必須等停借天數過後才可以開放他們的權限那目前我就還有8本是可以進行借閱的所以跟大家說明一下我們是個別計算預期的天數"},{"start":21401.997,"end":21416.457,"text":"那再來看一下中間的借書的內容就是借書清單這裡呢就有列出借月日跟到期日接下來後方這裡有續、預、預是什麼意思呢是續借、預期跟預約"},{"start":21419.124,"end":21440.511,"text":"大一點給大家看就是續借預期跟預約所以我們可以看到像現在最後一筆這個地方如果有1就代表說這本書其實議案審議立法院運作實況這本書其實之前借期已經有續借過一次了所以它的預期已經延後到3月27號"},{"start":21442.572,"end":21464.332,"text":"那這個時候再看一下﹐如果後方﹐你想要在繼續的續屆﹐後方有沒有人預約呢﹐在這個的預﹐才會有顯示﹐就是這個就是預約的人數﹐所以假設這個預有人數在後面﹐就是有數字的話﹐就代表說那本書﹐你還想再續屆﹐可是沒有辦法了﹐因為後面有預約﹐這時候就要請您將書歸還"},{"start":21469.076,"end":21471.298,"text":"提醒圖書到期的通知單呢?其實是在書到期前7天所以其實這本書已經有收到通知單了"},{"start":21492.518,"end":21513.051,"text":"我們的獎頁裡面有截圖在收到通知單的時候上面就會告訴你說這本書已經快要到期了如果還要辦理續借的話有一個快捷鍵是我想辦理續借我想辦理續借那個快捷鍵點進來就一樣是到我的書房的這個畫面這時候你點選這本書國會助理工作手冊"},{"start":21514.272,"end":21540.337,"text":"然後呢 記得要按右下角這個地方 有一個辦理續借就是顏色有點相近 但是你點選書之後 不是點了之後就直接已經續借成功喔要記得點一下右下角這個辦理續借你點它看一下 欸剛剛原本2月26號到期的現在已經成功更新到期日到3月27號所以呢我的續借的次數就變成1"},{"start":21542.867,"end":21560.427,"text":"那現在介紹清單這一頁簡單介紹完之後來看一下剛剛的預約清單就會在這個地方顯示假設說您想說不要等了就是等滿久的我找其他圖書來替代這個時候不需要這本書我們就直接將它勾選然後一樣按取消預約"},{"start":21563.348,"end":21575.249,"text":"調閱資料一樣﹖假設您現在想說不要本心點的書了﹖現在B1這裡就有其他的新書已經進了﹖而且也是您所需要的內容﹖這時候就可以直接點選取消調閱"},{"start":21578.479,"end":21605.96,"text":"接下來下一頁是借閱記錄這什麼時候可以派上用場呢其實就是大家可能以前有借過那本書 非常好用但是隔一陣子工作上面可能又需要了但這時候你怎麼樣就是想不起來當初借的那一本好用的書到底是什麼這個時候可能就要回到借閱記錄的地方然後大概想想看可能是什麼時候偶然是這本書我們再重新預約或重新來借書"},{"start":21609.008,"end":21628.833,"text":"接下來的話是推薦書單的部分推薦書單是如果剛剛我們講的在檢索的部分您都找不到自己想要的圖書或者是說你知道這本書明明有出版或者是很心勁準備要出版的書非常希望可以讓圖書館也採購這本書進來提供給大家使用那這個時候我們就可以到剛剛右手邊右上角"},{"start":21637.176,"end":21640.241,"text":"我的書房的右邊就有一個好書推薦在好書推薦這裡將就是您需要的資料填寫在這裡"},{"start":21650,"end":21653.022,"text":"我們需要什麼樣的資料呢?至於現在要書名,資料名稱就可能是書名、作者另外是出版者、出版年為什麼會需要這些資料?希望大家能夠填得越詳盡越好因為其實就像一位作者,假設像劉雍好了"},{"start":21667.489,"end":21674.311,"text":"：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":21691.86,"end":21719.498,"text":"提醒大家因為國會圖書館是專門圖書館所以在典藏的資料部分我們主要還是以立法作為我們的館藏特藏因為資源有限希望大家在推薦圖書資料的時候是以法律、政治、財政、經濟、環保等社會科學類或者是立法參考需要譬如說可能現在很需要探定價"},{"start":21720.759,"end":21726.764,"text":"環保和能相關的資料那我們就可以在這個地方進行推薦我們回來看一下所以假設我剛剛在那邊有推薦圖書 有Key資料了這時候你Key的資料會在什麼地方顯示呢就是在我的書房裡面這裡有個推薦書單上面就會有推薦日期跟您推薦的資料名稱跟作者還有處理狀態"},{"start":21748.419,"end":21776.619,"text":"這時候您心中的疑惑就來了那是不是我要不定期的來看看這本書是不是成功採購進來了上架了你要解就不用因為當您在推薦的當下就是我們已經將您視為接下來這本書一旦準備要上架新書準備要上架您就是第一位的預約者所以到時候新書假設上架會直接收到就是預約取書的通知信"},{"start":21777.099,"end":21799.891,"text":"然後通知您來取書那剛剛介紹的其實主要就是第二個夜前我們回來這邊講那個上方的主題式的分類夜前剛剛主要講的就是實體館藏嘛因為可以提供我們直接現場借跟還的館藏主要就是實體館藏"},{"start":21800.732,"end":21816.908,"text":"實體管藏業如果切換到這個地方進行檢索的話這時候就只有實體管藏所以就查不到電子資源類型的資料了同樣的正中央有一個檢索框下方一樣會是我們的新書的介紹跟輪播"},{"start":21819.594,"end":21844.979,"text":"再來是電子資源剛剛有提到的在電子資源類這個地方是具有書目出版資訊的資料我們才會在這個地方進行賄賂比如說電子書這可能是IMF International Monetary Fund或者是OECD Publishing的電子圖書在這個地方如果您是在院外使用"},{"start":21846.039,"end":21871.96,"text":"如果在院外使用的話右方是不會出現相關的槽連結的但如果您現在是在院內那這些槽連結會自動出現就說我現在想要看電子期刊的全球中央美中科技對決我點一下HTML我可以直接進入到資料庫裡面甚至我可以直接線上直接將這本就是"},{"start":21873.48,"end":21877.642,"text":"電子期間開啟然後直接去閱覽裡面的內容當然還有博碩室論文啊數位影音等等這個資料庫的部分等一下會跟大家說我們同樣也有將資料庫的這一個條目本身就是建到我們館藏查詢系統但是因為等一下還有另外一個路徑也可以直接讓大家看資料庫所以我在這裡就暫時不先多說"},{"start":21904.046,"end":21932.577,"text":"接下來是分類瀏覽的夜前因為剛剛大家主要就是已經有目的性的進行檢索可能很知道自己需要哪一些資料可是圖書館這麼大然後你到樓下一看又只能一次這樣看一排要瀏覽圖書其實沒有辦法這麼快我們這時候可以利用就是分類瀏覽的夜前我們直接來看看依照圖書館的分類就是可能有哪一些資料可能會是您需要的或者是感興趣的"},{"start":21934.478,"end":21937.042,"text":"社會科學政治學經濟學法律經過分類後呈現的資訊"},{"start":21944.963,"end":21967.893,"text":"已經來我們是以出版年就是越近的越新的我們會排在最上面會看到正好是就是外文書但剛剛也講到了如果假設您這時候其實使用的偏好還是中文書的話在查詢結果分析其實最下面您就可以直接點選中文那就可以直接將我們的結果限縮是在中文類的圖書"},{"start":21971.684,"end":21997.153,"text":"新書通告的部分剛介紹的是我們的館藏查詢頁簽跟實體館藏頁簽下方都有新書通告但其實新書通告我們也直接有一個頁簽大家可以直接來這裡看這就等於是你沒有時間來圖書館也沒有關係你可以直接在研究室或是你家裡正好有時間的時候就開來看看圖書館目前進哪些新書"},{"start":22000.037,"end":22025.942,"text":"在這個頁面如果您點選的是書名它就會進到剛剛的書目資料有出版資訊頁的部分如果點選的是書封就可以給您直接看到就像沒有圖書館就是你一來看新書可能就是先看書封有興趣了之後打開看看目錄是什麼的這種就是形態那就可以在這邊直接看看目錄有哪些內容是不是符合您的需求那有需求的話這時候很快右下角就一個預約鍵可以進行預約"},{"start":22030.043,"end":22056.121,"text":"那又按照 接下來這個是全部直接顯示我們所有的新書也可以按照分類提供給大家參考再來是委員著作的地方跟剛剛的委員問證專輯有點類似我們主要就是一進來已經預設是在目前當屆的第11屆的資料那可以看到這下方就是有委員的名字"},{"start":22062.765,"end":22082.636,"text":"現在目前看到的是 有一些頁鉛是書本的顏色是紫色 有一些是綠色這是什麼意思呢 其實這個是性別 所以就是看到紫色其實是女性 綠色是男性希望大家這樣單看可能沒什麼感覺 在看的時候這上面是委員有著作的才會顯示在這邊"},{"start":22084.577,"end":22102.621,"text":"然後這時候再回去看第1屆就會發現說瞬間紫色的葉籤就少了非常的多所以其實性別到目前就是第10屆已經就是很平等了那我們點一位委員江啟臣副院長給大家看看那這就是他的出版的著作"},{"start":22105.919,"end":22120.112,"text":"接下來是立法特長 立法特長的話就是我們立法院出的報告大家剛剛應該有聽到有公聽會報告會務報告等等的那也可以在這個地方直接點選就是您所需要的會期跟影像"},{"start":22121.806,"end":22136.68,"text":"接下來是法律專書 法律專書的部分也是法律 總論 法規 會定等等的分類我們往下還有憲法 民法 刑法 那給大家也是先看一下各國訴訟法"},{"start":22139.805,"end":22139.906,"text":"請勿模仿"},{"start":22156.806,"end":22174.448,"text":"那剛剛已經介紹完了館長查詢系統這時候我們再來看看有哪些資料是可以提供大家立法工作室現在首頁的立法院智庫就是有熱門區這裡有一個立法院的期刊文獻系統"},{"start":22175.769,"end":22199.886,"text":"先說明一下因為剛剛有特別提到這個是我們有針對性建制的一個系統只有法律政治政府行政管理相關的期刊文獻才會被我們就是一筆一筆拿來分析建黨掃描建制這個系統那什麼時候會用到呢大家以前應該有這種經驗就是你很需要一本期刊你沒有辦法去圖書館"},{"start":22200.726,"end":22221.398,"text":"或者是你到圖書館準備借這本期刊 知道裡面有非常需要的資料可是呢 正好在你來之前有人把期刊借走了所以這時候如果在立法工作上就是有急需 特別是我們非常注重時效性的時候怎麼辦呢 這時候就進來期刊文獻系統 那我檢索一下給大家看看"},{"start":22232.266,"end":22256.48,"text":"我直接檢索所得稅法 大家可以一下看到 有1199筆資料而且呢 其實是跨各種期刊 如財稅法令 月貸財稅 實務 飾品所以大家就可以直接在這裡 就是看看說那針對所得稅法一下準備要修法了 那是不是有相關的資料可以提供您"},{"start":22257.38,"end":22284.685,"text":"參考那期刊文獻就是可以在這個地方直接提供給大家就是跨期刊而且具有主題性的檢索直接找到您符合的資料當然我講到因為現在1199筆假設您真的是有什麼資料在裡面要找的話篩選要非常多時間所以呢左邊有查詢結果分析右邊也有再查詢的小框提供給大家使用或者是我們可以直接使用進階查詢"},{"start":22302.492,"end":22322.125,"text":"我們直接查詢所得稅法﹐而且限定是在月旦系列的期刊﹐這時候就可以直接將資料限鎖在﹐您覺得就是月旦期刊的資料﹐您比較可信﹐比較可靠﹐或是可能以前的教授都會在這裡發表﹐你非常需要他的一些論註﹐他就可以直接來這個地方進行查詢我們再點選右邊的電子期刊資料庫﹐"},{"start":22330.623,"end":22358.51,"text":"因為我們剛剛講了期刊文獻系統主要是針對就是法律政治相關類型的期刊文獻假設這個時候不是在這個分類裡的期刊文獻呢我們就是或是您有找不到的資料我們就在右邊電子期刊資料庫這邊將我們採購的資料庫中外文資料庫列在這個地方提供給大家參考所以中文電子期刊就有月旦知識庫華裔中文期刊資料電子期刊資料庫"},{"start":22359.65,"end":22388.282,"text":"商周﹑遠見﹑天下雜誌﹑甚或是外文期刊﹑可能就有Research Library﹑有Wiley﹑有HairOnline﹑有JSTOR﹑這些都可以提供給大家使用那我們再就是切換到電子期刊資料庫這地方再直接接到我們最後一個部分就是圖書期刊資料庫現在進到最後一個部分是我們國會圖書館的首頁上方呢大家點選的時候剛剛有提到"},{"start":22389.022,"end":22406.133,"text":"假設這個時候您是在院外那就只會出現一個連結叫立法院智庫因為它是政府公開資訊所以您必須要先登入我們的網站的會員進到我們的系統才可以看到中文智庫和外文智庫這兩個連結"},{"start":22409.588,"end":22428.501,"text":"那這個時候我先讓大家對中文資料庫有哪些資料跟它大概簡介有點印象所以希望大家可以先幫我把你們的資料翻手邊的那本資料翻到第32頁第32頁那邊有就是我們中文智庫的列表而且我們已經有將簡介都直接附在上面"},{"start":22440.137,"end":22458.572,"text":"對好那沒有也沒關係沒有也沒關係好大概他其實內容也是跟現在上面的順序是一樣的所以沒有資料的話等一下就可以直接看一下上面先有一個印象然後等一下我才會把一些範例就是開給大家看"},{"start":22460.373,"end":22487.334,"text":"首先在中文智庫的法律類上面﹐我們有收藏了四種﹐是法源法律網﹐月單知識庫﹐月單議事法網﹐跟執根法律網想到了這些是我們立法公共上﹐非常需要的資料庫﹐所以使用率Top1也是我們的法源法律網﹐在2012年的使用率最高的就是法源法律網﹐所以大家有時間回家一定要點點看﹐然後盡可能的趕快熟悉﹐掌握好裡面有哪些資料﹐"},{"start":22488.115,"end":22499.37,"text":"那可能收錄的內容是哪些呢?就是法規、司法判決、裁判書、起訴書或是一些法學論註相關的就會在第1到第4我放大一點"},{"start":22502.833,"end":22526.147,"text":"因為我看好像不是每個人都有講義這是法源法律網、樂旦知識庫、樂旦意識法網跟紙跟法律網那在接下來是財經類的部分財經類就有臺經院的產經資料庫AISP情報顧問服務資料庫跟中華信用品等資料庫那這邊就會有一些產業研究的專文報告"},{"start":22527.788,"end":22527.908,"text":"新聞類型資料庫編號8-15"},{"start":22545.117,"end":22547.718,"text":"經濟日報數位板聯合報數位板聯合知識庫大家可以看到後方有機構會員括弧的字樣那為什麼我們已經就是採購這麼多經濟日報的資本跟新聞知識庫為什麼還有這機構會員"},{"start":22562.984,"end":22586.793,"text":"主要是因為現在出版社報刊他們的產品非常的多元那就是在網站上有非常多的VIP的研究專文他們是可能是主題性的深入探討的資料是必須要採購這個機構會員才可以看得到的所以說我們就在資料庫的地方補足提供給大家那有需要如果是一般查詢沒有看到的時候就可以來這個地方再查查看"},{"start":22588.194,"end":22598.23,"text":"另外還有中央通訊社新聞資訊整合查詢系統﹐端傳媒﹐瘋傳媒﹐Digit Times科技網﹐跟OPview社群口碑資料庫"},{"start":22600.219,"end":22624.253,"text":"那接下來的話我們就到期刊論文電子書的部分那這個地方有10個有哈密書呈場域閱讀這個也是機構會員但這個會有就是IP的認證所以等一下點開大家也可以看一下它其實是有一個確認您現在所在位置的一個畫面還有HiRead台灣全文資料庫華譯中文電子期刊資料庫"},{"start":22625.374,"end":22631.136,"text":"電子雜誌 跟商業週刊知識庫 遠見雜誌 天下雜誌 零網電子書這個大家應該是最常使用到的 不管是現在的學校還是公共圖書館 國立公共資訊圖書館 國家圖書館都有採購零網電子書接下來的話是"},{"start":22647.811,"end":22649.474,"text":"華裔中文碩博士論文資料庫"},{"start":22662.631,"end":22691.622,"text":"在其他類的部分有故事Story Studio跟日據時期台灣時報資料庫還有台灣文獻從刊資料庫這三筆就會有一些針對台灣歷史就是大家可能在歷史研究上或是民主脈絡上會有一些文獻可能會是您需要的最後兩個是2930的Easy 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Economist有分兩個版本正中央這一個大家可以看到還有Online是因為它也有將一些就是線上的文章收羅在這邊可是可以看到它的時間上面會有一些例外狀況為什麼因為其實這是資料庫所以它沒有辦法就是如果出版者沒有把"},{"start":23841.488,"end":23854.35,"text":"．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．第11屆立法委員助理研習會．"},{"start":23856.517,"end":23878.717,"text":"現在要看的期刊會是2024年2月假設說你想要再看以前的資料內容這邊就要進行年代或者是月份的切換甚或是期數假如說我現在已經確定了我要看這一期的Politics我就點選全文的PDF檔那就可以直接像就是翻閱期刊一樣直接看到單本的內容字台小給大家看一下Politics的頁面"},{"start":23885.495,"end":23908.208,"text":"接下來的話我們來介紹 Access Global Newsbank這個資料庫在今年進行改版升級剛剛有講到我們好幾個新聞資料庫其實都是特定單一一種期刊跟出版者像經濟日報就是經濟日報可是Access Global它等於是像是"},{"start":23909.75,"end":23920.803,"text":"﹚第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會：第11屆立法委員助理研習會："},{"start":23928.651,"end":23943.559,"text":"點選進來之後呢會發現其實他其實是系統已經先預設crime 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Global那接下來呢當然就是我們不外乎紐約時報資料庫華爾街日報資料庫那這個就是單一個報刊的出版社的資料庫可以看一下華爾街日報"},{"start":24250.695,"end":24277.729,"text":"這邊可以看到他一開始預設都是在英文的addition下方都是英文的資料那想說你想說今天就是想要看中文好我們切一下或者是日文切一下中文的部分一切過來想說 欸呦怎麼都是簡體沒有關係我們再把它切到繁體版那大家都可以在這個地方可以看到繁體版的新聞所以其實華爾街日報他也有可以提供就是繁體的新聞可以在這個地方即時提供給大家"},{"start":24279.129,"end":24279.27,"text":"產經新聞資料庫"},{"start":24300.849,"end":24320.763,"text":"資料庫 透過產經新聞資料庫這個地方 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啊民進黨卻舍此而不為想盡一切辦法就是要鬥臭臺中市市長盧秀燕為什麼呢這也真正的作死了民進黨就會搞鬥爭的一個現象"},{"start":2586.687,"end":2592.183,"text":"現在政府執政了8年,台電電力變成一本爛帳。"},{"start":2593.314,"end":2617.325,"text":"缺電跳電問題不斷每一天都有官員出來說市院不漲價電價不行囉經濟部長更說不調漲電價臺電會有財務危機陳建宇院長你更好笑的是說我們要感謝臺電但是臺電要做什麼呢反映成本"},{"start":2618.91,"end":2641.59,"text":"問題是臺電虧損是老百姓害的嗎?當然不是!臺電的員工這麼辛苦,發生了財務的問題,重要是什麼?政府的能源政策的錯誤!所以院長,你應該去討論你的能源政策到底要怎麼調整,而不是將所有的責任愧疚於我們的人民!"},{"start":2646.776,"end":2668.086,"text":"謝謝楊委員、瓊英。接下來我們請登記第4位張委員嘉峻發言。主席"},{"start":2669.042,"end":2687.482,"text":"院長各位同仁大家早安那今天呢本席想要建議行政院一個非常重要的一個議題就是雲林一直是臺灣的糧倉不管是農漁畜牧都是臺灣第一為全臺灣所有的"},{"start":2687.942,"end":2690.324,"text":"因為雲林不管是水、電、土地乃至交通、醫療、教育等等"},{"start":2717.345,"end":2734.962,"text":"都已經準備好了首先最重要的就是土地雲林縣有超過1200公頃的台塘地可以說是單一地主不用擔心未來擴廠的問題包括私人用地的問題可以讓台積電穩定建構未來20、30年的基地發展"},{"start":2740.407,"end":2756.711,"text":"台灣目前能夠提供這麼優秀條件的縣市只有雲林縣。那包括雲林縣有充分的水電基礎建設的優勢。水資源方面尤其湖山水庫蓄水5347萬噸。及籍蘭和縣每年可以供給20億噸。"},{"start":2762.893,"end":2763.053,"text":"﹚發言委員："},{"start":2787.012,"end":2797.485,"text":"麥寮氣電共生1800MW,換而言之雲林縣能夠提供最穩定的水電基礎資源作為高科技產業。"},{"start":2799.526,"end":2826.901,"text":"穩定發展的後盾那包括說我們的交通位置優勢雲林縣位於臺灣西岸的中間位置與竹科南科的距離相當地勢平緩氣候佳亦有高鐵站目前雲林縣政府已經爭取到麥寮公用碼頭的興建在2027可以完工未來將增加這個海運的選項大幅減低運輸成本"},{"start":2827.561,"end":2847.37,"text":"所以為了爭取台積電來雲林我們準備好了請行政院可以落入考量希望能夠讓雲林縣脫胎換骨成為下世代高科技產業的基地也為我們的年輕朋友們年輕的鄉親們提供最佳的就業機會"},{"start":2852.68,"end":2857.945,"text":"謝謝張委員嘉峻的發言。接下來我們請登記第五位羅委員志強。"},{"start":2882.196,"end":2910.707,"text":"管碧玲要管碧玲下臺管碧玲你聽見了嗎?管碧玲要管碧玲下臺管碧玲你聽見了嗎?今夏海域的執法事件已經上綱到兩岸非常緊張的一個狀態在這整個事件當中竟然發生海巡單位沒有錄影的這件事情"},{"start":2912.366,"end":2935.067,"text":"海巡單位執法沒有錄影到底政府該負什麼樣的責任羅志強來說不公允管碧玲自己說最公平我們來看看在2016年的時候當時憲兵指揮部爆發了一個偵查事件沒有錄影的一個狀況"},{"start":2936.909,"end":2959.743,"text":"管碧玲痛批這是國軍憲兵史上最大烏龍該下臺負責的人要有自覺不可以拿基層當替死鬼這三句話我如數奉還管碧玲我要請管碧玲來回答今天"},{"start":2961.124,"end":2981.62,"text":"海巡執法沒有錄影是不是海巡署海洋委員會有史以來最大的烏龍海巡執法沒有錄影是不是管碧玲你說的該下台的人要有自覺你有沒有這個自覺"},{"start":2983.695,"end":3007.463,"text":"海巡執法沒有錄影我要問管碧玲你要推給基層的執法人員嗎我看到現在民進黨的整個漫天扣紅帽說今天在這件事情上發出意見的人是中共同路人你不站在海巡的弟兄背後我讚重告訴大家"},{"start":3008.786,"end":3037.847,"text":"我們國民黨羅志強就是站在海巡執法人員的後盾才要求你必須徹查沒有錄影這件事情任何的執法單位錄影不只是為了犯罪違規的修正而已錄影更是執法人員自保最重要的工具就像今天我們的海巡人員這麼辛苦在海上查緝不法"},{"start":3039.964,"end":3064.987,"text":"結果有理說不清我就要問為什麼會有理說不清不就是因為政府沒有貫徹今天海巡執法必須錄影這件事情嗎當你沒有做這件事情你就是限執法人員於不義還有臉出來扣紅帽管碧玲還是問你按照你2016的標準你要不要下台謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":3070.173,"end":3075.686,"text":"謝謝羅委員自強的發言。接下來我們請登記第6號徐委員與珍發言。"},{"start":3095.633,"end":3111.904,"text":"大會主席韓國瑜院長陳建仁院長以及各位官員還有各位委員同仁們大家好本席今天要討論的是擴大中科胡委員區讓台積電落腳雲林政府推動半導體學院精創臺灣方案"},{"start":3113.792,"end":3131.123,"text":"臺灣AI行動計畫2.0帶動半導體產業的發展。．望藉此帶動關聯產業以及上中下游供應鏈的發展與創新。透過科學園區的分散讓北中南都有基地。2023年底傳出臺積電有意落腳雲林縣嘉義縣"},{"start":3135.026,"end":3154.821,"text":"﹚"},{"start":3155.101,"end":3176.918,"text":"業已向經濟部提案進行報編中。護衛產業園區緊鄰中科護衛園區可銜接麥寮與斗六等既有的工業園區。且臨近高鐵雲林站週五分鐘的車程、中山高速公路還有78線東西巷快速道路以及台19線省道,非常具有交通的便利性。"},{"start":3177.859,"end":3204.616,"text":"可以提供高科技產業進駐,將其納入中科虎尾園區,也可以擴大科學園區用地以因應AI趨勢下的產能需求。與新政府積極地推動中科虎尾園區擴大計畫,以及九大產業園區的設置,爭取下一個世代的高科技產業能夠落腳雲林。除了台積電,也積極地爭取其他高科技產業前來設廠。"},{"start":3207.017,"end":3232.594,"text":"希望創造雲林縣的就業機會讓雲林縣能夠真正的成為農工上併進的大縣。今年行政院對外表示支持中科湖尾園區的擴建但是在辦理時程上卻未能符合雲林縣民的期待昨日本席與張家俊委員丁學忠委員召開雲林縣政府爭取中科湖尾園區擴大的協調會議"},{"start":3235.946,"end":3263.521,"text":"經濟部、臺堂公司、臺水公司、臺電公司跟國科會都表示會將積極的配合辦理。本席期盼中央與地方能夠攜手合作,掌握產業發展的契機,能夠真正的達到築潮影縫,讓台積電以及其他的高科技的產業能夠落腳雲林,增加雲林的就業機會,提升縣民的幸福感。謝謝。"},{"start":3269.52,"end":3295.627,"text":"謝謝許委員與真接下來我們請登記第7號葉委員元之發言院長好管碧玲要管碧玲下台管碧玲聽見了嗎其實我今天要講的主題不是這個但是這很重要所以我擺在這裡"},{"start":3296.892,"end":3325.041,"text":"我今天我要講的主題是有關於食安因為昨天晚上到很晚的時候行政院才把食安報告送到我們黨團那我抱著非常認真的心情在看這份報告但是我看得很認真他們寫得非常的隨便整本報告裡面只有傳達10個字應該是12個字馬英九好爛爛民進黨好棒棒就是這12個字"},{"start":3326.858,"end":3347.105,"text":"總共9頁的報告大概一半以上在吹噓民進黨做得多棒這我只有8個字送給這個報告叫做只會吹噓不知反省這就是我們為什麼食安問題一直出現的原因嘛因為沒有病識感所以不會找問題解決問題"},{"start":3349.139,"end":3370.633,"text":"這整份報告阿他從民國97年開始講起說民國97年開始裡面馬英九有做多爛多爛多爛欸那為什麼是從民國97年因為97年2008剛好就是馬英九上任嘛所以就從民國97年到現在還在馬維拉還在馬維拉那為什麼不從盤古開天開始講"},{"start":3375.043,"end":3384.338,"text":"為什麼不從陳水扁執政開始講所以還在搞政治鬥爭現在這個主題明明就是民進黨執政八年台灣食安問題總檢討還在馬唯拉"},{"start":3387.677,"end":3410.229,"text":"然後第二民進黨好棒因為馬英九都是系統性問題民進黨都只有個案問題所以民進黨好棒我就問請問蛋液洗產地不是系統性的問題嗎?農業部當時告訴業者說巴西的蛋進來以後變成蛋液他就實質轉型了所以可以把它變成台灣製"},{"start":3412.032,"end":3439.198,"text":"結果巴西旦可以洗產地這是個案還是系統性問題這就是系統性問題那為什麼整份報告裡面說民進黨只有個案沒有系統性問題然後再來在最後啊大家關心的西部特羅的案子只有一頁半啦九頁裡面吹噓完之後只有一頁半在講西部特羅裡面自己提到很清楚的提到農業部接下來要負責調查養殖跟屠宰階段"},{"start":3440.243,"end":3464.175,"text":"衛福部要調查販賣階段跟檢驗階段然後保齊總隊跟警察也要去調查實驗室的問題那就代表你中央有責任嘛你中央也是有職責所在要去處理食安嘛那為什麼一開始一直把問題全部推給台東市政府民進黨說叫陳建仁來不如叫盧秀燕來那你自己在這邊寫一大堆說你要做事情幹什麼"},{"start":3464.955,"end":3482.331,"text":"我今天是因為我沒有抽到質詢所以利用這個國是論壇發表意見這個非常重要希望說謝謝葉委員原汁的發言接下來我們請登記第8號吳委員春晨發言"},{"start":3499.888,"end":3522.319,"text":"主席、院長今天我要講的是教育部的問題昨天我跟黃珊珊委員召開學校共參法的公聽會有八個民間團體踴躍出席"},{"start":3526.24,"end":3552.358,"text":"還有負責食材的農業部負責營養的衛福部都派了很多位一起出席進行了兩個小時大家非常熱烈的來關注這個孩子共餐的問題但是呢教育部只派了一位沒有決策權的國教署的專門委員來出席公聽會"},{"start":3554.246,"end":3572.404,"text":"然後什麼都沒準備教育部是負責這個共產法的專責部會我們的孩子的營養午餐這個已經不曉得炒了多少年的日本在"},{"start":3574.497,"end":3601.142,"text":"1954年70年前就已經制定了這個法韓國在1981年也制定了這個法我們相較於日韓已經落伍的半個世紀到現在為什麼臺灣還沒辦法訂了一個統一的學校的營養午餐法而放任給各縣市造成這個的亂象"},{"start":3603.939,"end":3629.805,"text":"所以很難了解原因,歸咎於原因就是教育部不願意負責任,不願意扛起這個責任來,推諉的責任。另外最近有一個熱門的話題,就是有一對雪嶺的兄妹,看他的日程表每天睡不到6小時,這個小學生也引起外界的樂意。雪嶺的兒童吃不好睡不好,"},{"start":3631.206,"end":3651.467,"text":"本席認為教育部長要負起最大的責任而這一些這麼嚴重的問題一直持續委員也要幫忙解決問題但是部長覺得不痛不癢所以這個充耳不聞因為每次營養午餐只要出問題"},{"start":3654.383,"end":3654.543,"text":"以上"},{"start":3686.985,"end":3690.013,"text":"謝謝吳委員春晨的發言。接下來我們請登記第9號陳委員經微。"},{"start":3708.735,"end":3731.021,"text":"主席院長各位行政首長還有我立法院的同事以及各位媒體朋友大家早安今天我在這邊要討論一個臺灣位居世界倒數第一名而且非常嚴峻的問題也就是我們的生育率只剩下0.87低到不能再低這樣的臺灣"},{"start":3733.462,"end":3751.497,"text":"我們未來很快人口就會跌破2000萬變成一個人口稀少的荒島必須我們朝野一同來重視這樣子的問題很多人會說到是不是我們現在的大環境讓結婚的人不敢再生小孩"},{"start":3753.998,"end":3763.805,"text":"錯過去這20年其實已婚的人生育率是不降反升他們都很願意生但當然我們還要有更好的配套"},{"start":3765.097,"end":3793.758,"text":"給他們更好的環境來養育小孩但是我們的單身在生育年齡這個單身率呢卻快要到45%所以其實現在非常多的女性已經把婚育脫鉤了並不會覺得我一定要為了生小孩而結婚所以我們應該重視的是越來越多人並不想結婚但卻願意為台灣生養小孩"},{"start":3795.516,"end":3812.536,"text":"過去這2、3、10年,行政單位辦了無數場公聽會,大家可以一一去細數,希望可以進行人工生殖法的修法,以及代理孕母的修法,但這麼多公聽會有用嗎?"},{"start":3815.031,"end":3839.727,"text":"仍然持續的停滯倒退沒有誠意並沒有想要真正的去解決這樣子的問題始終沒有辦法提出可以呼應我們社會潮流還有願意生養小孩這些人民的回應本席身為第一線的婦產科醫師也是不孕症醫師同時升職醫學我看到無數比如說子宮有問題"},{"start":3841.667,"end":3864.782,"text":"或者是單身女生還有我們同婚專法通過以後無數的同志伴侶很希望為台灣孕育優秀的下一代但礙於法規他們沒有辦法甚至遠赴國外還有被一些無良的仲介欺騙欺騙了金錢時間等等感到非常的痛心"},{"start":3865.763,"end":3891.963,"text":"我們沒有辦法讓各種性傾向的家庭多元的家庭可以生養小孩不僅不符合憲法保障的平等權也不符合他們的家庭權也不符合他們的生育自主權因此本席未來要解決臺灣一再探底的生育率更要幫助大家守護憲法給予我們基本的權利前兩天"},{"start":3904.179,"end":3911.011,"text":"謝謝陳委員、金威。現在登記國是論壇發言的委員均已發言完畢。現在休息。謝謝。"},{"start":5625.18,"end":5646.357,"text":"我們請周秘書長報告出席人數。報告院會出席委員68人已足法定人數。我們現在開會本次會議議事日程因為程序委員會尚未組成一例,由秘書長編寧草案送院會處理。"},{"start":5649.008,"end":5653.151,"text":"在確認議事日程之前先處理朝野黨團協商結論。請議事人員宣讀。"},{"start":5656.926,"end":5674.42,"text":"議法院黨團協商結論時間113年2月22日星期四下午40地點紅樓302會議室決定事項各黨團同意2月23日星期五邀請行政院院長率同相關部會首長列席提出有關民進黨政府執政8年台灣十二問題總監討專案報告並被質詢。質詢人數由國民黨黨團推敗7人"},{"start":5680.205,"end":5706.52,"text":"民進黨黨團推派7人,臺灣民眾黨黨團推派1人進行。每位委員尋答時間15分鐘。質詢順序依例授權議事處辦理。名單請於2月23日星期五上午8時30分前送交議事處會診。欲時適同放棄。主持人韓國瑜江啟臣。協商代表傅坤崎、洪孟凱、林思明、柯建民、吳思堯、莊瑞雄、黃國昌、黃珊珊、吳春成。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":5709.444,"end":5735.774,"text":"請問院會對以上朝野黨團協商結論有無異議。無異議通過。113年2月22日朝野黨團協商結論今決定如下。一、各黨團同意2月23日星期五邀請行政院院長率同相關部會首長列席,提出有關民進黨政府執政八年。"},{"start":5737.469,"end":5742.413,"text":"臺灣食安問題總檢討專案報告並備質詢。質詢人數由國民黨黨團推派7位、民進黨黨團推派7位、臺灣民眾黨黨團推派1位進行。每位委員詢答時間15分鐘。質詢順序一例。"},{"start":5757.589,"end":5783.508,"text":"授權議事處辦理。明單於2月23日星期五上午8時30分前送議事處會診。欲時適同放棄。現在進行確認議事日程。報告委員會本次會議議事日程除以剛才通過之協商結論修正通過外其餘均照原編寧議程草案通過。"},{"start":5785.407,"end":5795.837,"text":"本次會議議事日程確定。現在進行報告事項請秘書長宣讀第一會期第一次會議議事錄。"},{"start":5798.57,"end":5806.594,"text":"宣讀立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議．事由．時間中華民國113年2月20日上午9時2分至9時31分、10時4分至11時59分、下午2時30分至5時2分．地點本院議場出席委員、吳委員、鐘憲等110人、請教委員、徒委員、全級等3人、內席官員、"},{"start":5824.147,"end":5838.325,"text":"行政院院長陳建仁等40人主席院長韓國瑜報告是這樣第一案宣讀本院第11屆院長副院長選舉會議事路決定確定第二案至第12案第14案"},{"start":5840.087,"end":5849.69,"text":"第3案均決定交互相關委員會審查。第13案決定定期舉行會議,邀請審計長列席報告審核經過,並備諮詢。第15案決定交黨團協商會議處理。第16案決定召案通過。第17案為聯事處所提出報告案。"},{"start":5865.234,"end":5881.279,"text":"本院院長報告之一本院組織法第14條之規定,臨選周岸來先生擔任本院秘書長,張玉榮先生擔任本院副秘書長,執行事項甲。行政院答覆部門14件,以本院委員執行部門1件。"},{"start":5882.74,"end":5896.755,"text":"討論事項第一案決議交互黨團協商並由臺灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商。行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告並答覆質詢決定下次會議繼續進行質詢其他事項一、"},{"start":5901.226,"end":5929.937,"text":"一百三年二月五日朝野黨團協商結論事項﹖二本次會議一四次討論事項﹖列入臺灣民眾黨黨團提議其余均照原本已議程草案通過宣讀完畢。報告院會針對第一會期第一次會議議事錄並無委員或黨團提出錯誤或遺漏之處。做以下之決定"},{"start":5930.851,"end":5955.074,"text":"第一會期第一次會議一事錄確定。請宣讀第二案。第二案本院委員李寬城等21人已廢止。膨脹邊區人員任用條例請審案。依次處理件擬請院會交司法及法制內政兩委員會審查。宣讀完畢。請問院會對第二案有無異議。沒有異議無異議通過。繼續。"},{"start":5956.826,"end":5981.261,"text":"第三案本院委員李坤誠的21任理廢止國民大會統一權刑事法精選案一事處一件您請用會交司法及法制委員會審查宣讀完畢五議通過第四案本院委員李坤誠的21任理廢止國民大會職權刑事法精選案一事處一件您請用會交司法及法制委員會審查宣讀完畢五議通過"},{"start":5982.389,"end":6006.636,"text":"第五案,委員李坤誠等21人禮廢止,國民大會組織法情審議案,議事處議屆理事院會教司法及法制委員會審查,宣讀完畢五議,通過第六案,委員李坤誠等21人禮廢止,訓政結束程序法情審議案,議事處議屆理事院會教司法及法制委員會審查,宣讀完畢五議,通過"},{"start":6007.628,"end":6034.645,"text":"第七案本議員李寬辰而選擇離廢止第一屆資深中央民意代表自願退職條例請審議案一時初一屆立行會交司法及法制委員會審查宣讀完畢五議議通過第八案本議員李寬辰而選擇離職詐欺組織犯罪與防治條例裁判請審議案一時初一屆立行會交司法及法制委員會審查宣讀完畢五議議通過"},{"start":6035.714,"end":6061.551,"text":"第9案本院委員亮偉相等18人離聚接避者保護法草案請水案一事處一件你請回交司法及法律委員會審查宣讀完畢五一通過第10案本院委員亮偉相等21人離聚法院組織法第63條之一條文修正草案請水案一事處一件你請回交司法及法律委員會審查宣讀完畢五一通過"},{"start":6062.779,"end":6089.531,"text":"第11案,本院委員廖偉祥等18人理據《中華民國刑法》第339條之4條維修正常人情審議案,議事處意見立行會交,司法及法監委員會審查,宣言完畢。第12案,本院委員廖偉祥等18人理據《食品安全衛生管理法》第24條及第25條條維修正常人情審議案,議事處意見立行會交,社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查,宣言完畢。"},{"start":6091.291,"end":6093.513,"text":"五、一、通過五、一、通過五、一、通過"},{"start":6119.482,"end":6122.683,"text":"五、一、通過五、一、通過五、一、通過"},{"start":6148.581,"end":6151.242,"text":"五、一、一、通過五、一、一、通過五、一、一、通過"},{"start":6178.837,"end":6205.823,"text":"第十九案本月委員蘇清泉的十七任理據用於教育及政務法第37條條維修政策維新水案,依次處意見歷經會教教育及文化社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查,宣讀完畢五一通過第20案本月委員蘇清泉的十八任理據食品安全衛生管理法第22條條維修政策維新水案,依次處意見歷經會教社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查,宣讀完畢"},{"start":6207.642,"end":6210.283,"text":"五一一通過五一一通過五一一通過"},{"start":6235.626,"end":6238.447,"text":"五、一、通過五、一、通過五、一、通過"},{"start":6263.973,"end":6266.094,"text":"五、一、通過五、一、通過"},{"start":6291.397,"end":6293.858,"text":"五、一、通過五、一、通過五、一、通過"},{"start":6320.526,"end":6343.294,"text":"第29案,行政院海警水域遠洋漁業條例第14條之一、第36條之一及第47條條文修正草案案,依次處理屆年金會交經濟委員會審查,宣讀完畢。無異議,通過。第30案,行政院海警水域野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案案,依次處理屆年金會交經濟委員會審查,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6344.98,"end":6348.561,"text":"五、一、通過五、一、通過五、一、通過五、一、通過五、一、通過"},{"start":6366.767,"end":6381.674,"text":"無異議．通過。第三十三案．行政院案件選議．中華民國臺灣政府．部分聽制．中華民國臺灣與斯洛爾瓦多共和國．及宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書案．一日初一屆臨近會將外交及國防經濟的兩委員會審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":6385.996,"end":6402.332,"text":"無異議．通過李三十四案習近平還經選議我國與宏都拉斯共和國間﹐自112年12月6日終止﹐中華民國臺灣與薩爾瓦多共和國及宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定案﹐一事出現,民情院會將外交及國防經濟兩院會審查﹐宣讀完畢"},{"start":6405.95,"end":6409.071,"text":"五、一、二、通過五、一、二、通過五、一、二、通過"},{"start":6438.799,"end":6450.203,"text":"李三十七案 行政院行情審議處德國臺北代表處與德國在臺協會行事司法互助協議案,一時出現離境或交交警國方司法企劃室兩委員會審查,宣傳完畢。"},{"start":6451.758,"end":6467.045,"text":"無異議通過。第三十方案,施政院案為依據國家金融安定基金設置起管理條例第五條第三條之規定,請本院各黨團推薦學者專家六位,擔任下屆國家金融安定基金管理委員會委員。議事處意見已請院會交黨團協商會議處理。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6471.38,"end":6490.2,"text":"無異議．通過。第39案．國防部行為該部所屬112年度油料採購經費需求申請動之地域北京及新南必斯以8,465萬8,000元月經行政院主席總署同意備案。議事處議員你請願會加目交及國防委員會。宣告完畢"},{"start":6491.715,"end":6518.784,"text":"五、一、一通過。第四十二,前經衛行為教育部體育署為奔發第十九屆杭州亞洲運動會等多項賽會及優運動選手及有功教練蔣麗晶、金貝布夫、董事一百十二年度中央政府總預算第二日預備金三億三千三百四十四萬二千元之印,自檢送第二日預備金董事數為經費別票。議事處議見例行會交財政教育及文化兩委員會。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6521.101,"end":6522.242,"text":"五一一通過"},{"start":6543.177,"end":6565.106,"text":"五一通過。第四十二案,銜金衛衛農業部農糧署未辦理受援農產品驗證輔導及安全管理與行銷計劃所需經費不敷,動之一百十二年度中央政府總預算第二日備金三億二千二零三十三萬八千元之印,資檢送第二日備金動之數額機關別表。議事書意見已請回交財政經濟欄位委員會。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6568.683,"end":6569.604,"text":"五一一通過五一一通過"},{"start":6593.686,"end":6608.013,"text":"第44案,行政院行為農業部部署農業發展基金,辦理穩定肥料及相關資材供需計劃所需經費不符,動視一百選年度中央政府總預算第二日為北京九億元之印,再解送第二日為北京動視數額經費別表,依視處理期年齡會交財政經濟欄位委員會,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6614.346,"end":6615.346,"text":"五、一、一、通過五、一、一、通過"},{"start":6642.335,"end":6665.484,"text":"第46案 行政委喊為外交部臨時事務局因應疫情後護照申請量激增,將速辦理護照申請流程所需經費不敷。前董事112年度中央政府總算第二日備金9億2450萬1千元支應一案,自解送第二日備金董支數人機關別收證表。一線出現內行會交財政公交及國防兩位委員會。宣讀完畢"},{"start":6667.389,"end":6690.928,"text":"無異議．通過。第47案 協政院韓文內政部辦理中州科技大學規劃為全民防衛訓練場地及警政署保安警察第二總隊機動中隊使用加過款及耐震強頻實施計劃經費付付、動資一百十二年度中央政府總預算第二日費金一億二千七百萬四千元之印資解送第二日費金動資數額機關別表。議事處議院聯邦財政內政兩委員會宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6696.752,"end":6697.493,"text":"五、一、一通過"},{"start":6727.953,"end":6728.954,"text":"五、一、通過"},{"start":6746.329,"end":6750.251,"text":"無異議）通過。第五十案．第八款規定之租稅減免優惠．"},{"start":6765.154,"end":6767.675,"text":"五一議通過五一議通過五一議通過"},{"start":6795.563,"end":6796.103,"text":"無異議通過"},{"start":6813.809,"end":6824.803,"text":"吳亦毅通過。第54案,其進行為中華民國112年12月6日修正公佈之《金融消費者保護法》第三條第11條之一及第19條條文,定次1302月1日施行。議事處協議請回交財政委員會。宣傳完畢。"},{"start":6831.721,"end":6832.582,"text":"無異議通過無異議通過"},{"start":6849.045,"end":6878.232,"text":"第56案,行政院行為中華民國111年6月22日制定公佈之《醫療事務預防及專業處理法》,定自113年1月1日施行,依施處理協議,請委員會加入社會福利及衛生環境委員會,宣讀完畢無異議通過第57案,行政院行為中華民國112年12月27日制定公佈之《最低工資法》,定自113年1月1日施行,依施處理協議,請委員會加入社會福利及衛生環境委員會,宣讀完畢"},{"start":6880.023,"end":6882.024,"text":"五、一、通過五、一、通過"},{"start":6899.144,"end":6918.987,"text":"第59案,司法院海外中華民國122年12月15日的終身公務制勞動事件法部分條文訂自113年1月8日施行,以釋出一線例行或交通司法及法律委員會。宣讀完畢。五一通過報告委員會第60案到第89案"},{"start":6921.176,"end":6946.742,"text":"請依序宣讀其中第61案、63案、68案、69案國民黨黨團提議改交審查第61案、63案、66案臺灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查宣讀後以上提案均改"},{"start":6947.799,"end":6953.408,"text":"交相關委員會審查其餘議案均照議事處意見通過請問院會有無異議沒有異議宣讀後通過請宣讀"},{"start":6961.431,"end":6962.331,"text":"無異議通過第九十案以下"},{"start":6991.297,"end":7001.575,"text":"請一併宣讀宣讀後除第95到99案同意展言審查期限外其餘個案均準以被查請宣讀"},{"start":7002.489,"end":7006.953,"text":"第9議案及第9問案為本院內政委員會函,為院會交付行政院當務委員會103年度中央政府組一算決議案等案,均已於年度預算執行期間。"},{"start":7026.613,"end":7052.864,"text":"第九三案為本院內政委會函為院會交付審查財政法人二月八事件紀念基金會等107年度決算書案等案均已於決算法第18條鎖定審議期限。第九四案是第106案為本院司法及法制交通社會福利及衛生環境經濟外交及國防內政財政委會函為院會交付審查相關行政命令均已於法定展演審查及審查期限。"},{"start":7053.684,"end":7073.493,"text":"第一領請案之第139案為本院內政社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告審查相關人民團體請願案。經審查結果均不成為議案案。第一領請案之第146案為行政院函送本院前程委員江華、郵遷委員玉蘭、溫情委員玉霞等所提臨時提案之嚴處信心。"},{"start":7074.793,"end":7100.2,"text":"第一次提案為本月人事出函,為本月第11屆全國部分區及僑區國外國民地部當選立法委員,民主進步黨及王衛原佔據,已於113年2月19日星期一上午10時到院宣誓就職。宣讀完畢。有一一通過報告院會,現在進行行政院院長。"},{"start":7101.448,"end":7126.786,"text":"提出有關民進黨政府執政8年臺灣食安問題總檢討專案報告並被質詢。請行政院陳院長報告。陳院長、各位委員先進。大家早安、大家好。"},{"start":7127.799,"end":7132.204,"text":"今日應貴院邀請就民進黨政府執政8年臺灣食安問題總檢討進行專案報告並被質詢。"},{"start":7137.932,"end":7160.758,"text":"民以食為天,食品安全是國人最關注的民生議題。臺灣過去發生多起重大的食安事件,民國97年三聚氰胺事件,100年塑化劑事件,102年化質澱粉事件,102至103年油瓶粉沖及違法添加同葉綠素等事件,"},{"start":7162.333,"end":7188.633,"text":"嚴重了衝擊國人的健康和消費者的信心甚至影響了經貿發展還有國家的形象為了要健全食安管理大院在102年6月及103年2月全文修訂食品安全衛生管理法下稱食安法但是103年仍然發生了黑心油事件104年也發生了茶葉及"},{"start":7189.852,"end":7216.598,"text":"發炒茶、驗出禁用農藥等事件。這些重大的食安事件可以稱為系統性的事件,會使得食品鏈的上下游都受到嚴重的影響,它的樣態包括了使用餐尾或者是低價偽劣的品來作為食品原料或是添加不法化學物質在食品供應鏈之中,其中因涉"},{"start":7218.264,"end":7242.327,"text":"參委或者是假冒判決有罪者多達15件因為涉及添加未經中央主管機關許可的添加物判決有罪者共計12件為了要重建食安的管理蔡總統在105年就任以後積極推動食安五房的政策將食安管理面"},{"start":7243.416,"end":7271.883,"text":"向來擴大到環境保護還有上游的農業安全生產下游的販售賣場和餐飲衛生安全等層面並且開發科學看資訊技術以及加強檢調參與打擊步伐。近年來食安事件已經從系統性逐漸轉為個案性的問題。食安五環政策是整合跨部會"},{"start":7273.453,"end":7301.793,"text":"食品安全管理的權責和資源結合產業自律政府管理及民間參與這三方面的力量以源頭管控重建生產管理加強查驗來落實上游的管理而以加重惡意黑心廠商責任及全民監督食安來修築食安的下游防火牆這五大面向環環相扣積極把"},{"start":7303.476,"end":7303.676,"text":"﹚第11屆第2會議"},{"start":7316.912,"end":7317.172,"text":"主席"},{"start":7336.283,"end":7341.185,"text":"一百零七年也通過了有機農業的促進法一百一十一年通過食農教育法此外"},{"start":7366.107,"end":7384.44,"text":"衛生福利部下稱衛福部也修訂還有調整農藥、動物用藥和食品添加物的法規標準導入了邊境人工的智慧系統來提升抽中不合格食品的比率。為了要建構食品溯源的體系"},{"start":7385.947,"end":7402.261,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":7402.917,"end":7429.653,"text":"噴印溯源管理以及臺灣茶強制性溯源登錄與標示。近8年來有積極友善耕作的面積已經提高了2.5倍。產銷履歷農產品驗證的面積也提高了5倍。交易部更推動了學校午餐食材採用國產可溯源農產品3張EQ食材的覆蓋率高達了98%。"},{"start":7431.772,"end":7454.078,"text":"大力提升了學童午餐的品質及安全。在加強稽查檢驗方面,除了大幅提高農產品及食品的抽驗件數,加強第三方驗證的把關之外,同時運用食品雲、大數據及實驗室檢驗量能來提升查驗的頻率。"},{"start":7455.006,"end":7483.239,"text":"自108年起農業部創新設置農藥質樸快篩站每年檢驗2萬件田間農作物採樣快檢合格以後才上市有效在事前就及時攔阻不合格的產品上市。衛福部從106年到112年透過了食安五房、前瞻基礎建設等計畫補助各地方政府"},{"start":7483.679,"end":7501.144,"text":"充實人力、車輛、儀器、實驗室、預算等資源來提升稽查和檢驗的量能總均會到達26億元有效提升了地方政府健全食安的基礎建設。106到112年針對前端農產品、農漁畜產品抽驗的件數高達"},{"start":7510.407,"end":7510.647,"text":"﹚發言委員："},{"start":7532.749,"end":7546.837,"text":"將分譜尼列為雞蛋常態的檢測項目。107年發生業者回收不良蛋品重製業蛋的販售。違規產品就迅速下架而且立刻銷毀。112年進口業蛋原產地標示有爭議的7家業者也在檢調調查偵辦當中。"},{"start":7555.754,"end":7584.033,"text":"相關產品並未流入市場。政府在事件發生當時就即刻啟動了追溯的機制短時間就排除風險確保市售產品安全無疑顯示我國的食安管理體系已有顯著的進步。國際貿易是臺灣持續發展的基礎基於國家整體經濟的利益在食安優先符合科學證據"},{"start":7585.183,"end":7609.102,"text":"還有符合國際標準的前提下政府多次開放食品的挑戰特別是110年開放了含萊克多巴胺的美豬進口以及111年調整日本福島五線食品輸入的管制政府除了加強社會溝通也制定了完善的配套措施截至目前110至112年進口豬肉"},{"start":7612.574,"end":7613.434,"text":"去年由於全球流行禽流感"},{"start":7642.3,"end":7670.552,"text":"國內的雞蛋供應不足,雞蛋進口專案緩解了雞蛋危機所衍生的問題。在當時有雞蛋錯標有效日期以及液氮產品原產地標示爭議的事件政府邀請各部會延長雞蛋有效日期並在今年1月預告將殼氮輸入業者納入為因建立食品追溯追蹤系統的食品業者"},{"start":7672.02,"end":7699.669,"text":"規範對象來提升管理的強度。近8年來已經顯著降低系統性的食安事件,雖然偶爾會發生不法事情,但是也是透過了跨部會和地方政府充分的合作,已經提升了整體應變處理食安的效率,降低了影響的層面。針對台中市政府抽驗台塘國產梅花肉片檢出西部特羅的事件,"},{"start":7700.239,"end":7727.568,"text":"政府在這期間已經不斷釐清並且向民眾說明節至2月21日農業部已經檢驗上市前的樣品793件及衛福部檢視上市後的樣品92件除了台中市單一核檢體檢出西部特羅其餘的都檢驗未檢出乙型受體數"},{"start":7728.962,"end":7753.859,"text":"初步排除了國內豬肉供應鏈受到隱形受體數的污染風險本案研判屬於單一檢體問題而非系統性事件為了讓民眾放心政府以嚴謹的態度審慎處理已經責請衛福部跟農業部邀集相關的學者專家進行行政調查盤點各階段操作可能的污染風險"},{"start":7755.56,"end":7783.986,"text":"有關西部特羅流向的查核。財政部提供了111年到113年2月6日西部特羅進口業者一共有4家共計進口了789毫克。衛福部在113年2月7日接獲財政部提供業者的名單以後就前往查核。這4家進口西部特羅的業者是說明產品用途是"},{"start":7784.505,"end":7810.959,"text":"指作為實驗室的標準品銷售下游一共有12家的地方政府衛生局以及12家的民間檢驗機構此外針對後市場的豬肉的產品的乙型受體數的抽檢我們也會從每年2000件來提升到4000件確保市售豬肉符合安全標準在農業界、食品業界"},{"start":7811.775,"end":7826.953,"text":"中央政府、國會、地方政府、學員界、民間團體各方的努力之下這8年來臺灣已經逐漸走出三聚氰胺、塑化劑、毒澱粉、黑心、油瓶等系統性食安事件的陰霾。國內與國際間已從實對"},{"start":7831.991,"end":7843.348,"text":"臺灣食品安全的信心很多的聯手食品企業包括小籠包跟珍珠奶茶走出臺灣在世界各地管受喜愛跟信賴就是最好的例證"},{"start":7844.386,"end":7872.459,"text":"食品安全是不分黨派也是全民共同關心的民生議題蔡政府推動食安五房政策將業者實名制溯源納管定定符合國際貿易的標準跟規範輔導業者遵守法律規範加強稽查和檢驗保障和鼓勵消費者檢舉資料公開和資訊共享大大提升了臺灣食安的水準國人"},{"start":7873.442,"end":7898.36,"text":"更能夠安心放心更相信臺灣優質的農產品和食品而食安的維護及提升是朝野共同的目標也需要全民來共同攜手努力讓我們彼此努力來使得臺灣的食安能夠更上層樓特別感謝各位委員先進的支持也祝大家平安健康謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":7900.857,"end":7918.754,"text":"謝謝陳院長們的報告。報告用會,現在進行委員質詢。每位委員詢答時間不得超過15分鐘。輪到質詢的委員如果不在場,視同放棄。第一位,請台灣民眾黨委員陳委員招致質詢。"},{"start":7943.359,"end":7959.927,"text":"有請院長請陳院長備詢謝謝您剛剛的食安專題報告我現在請問院長您對落實源頭管理確保國人食安您給自己打幾分?謝謝"},{"start":7963.372,"end":7990.677,"text":"從2016年之前跟2016年以後我們來做一個比較我剛才講過我看你系統性的這個食安問題已經大幅的減少大部分都是個案的問題所以我覺得這個食安問題之所以會這樣好不是只有中央政府的努力包括了地方政府、學界、民間、業界都有所以我整體來看相對於亞洲附近的國家我覺得台灣的食安是不錯的"},{"start":7991.967,"end":8009.865,"text":"謝謝院長。 院長我下面想請教您一個邏輯問題。針對開放美國萊豬進口以下說法何者正確?當政府沒有檢出萊克多巴胺的時候是不是就等於飼養的時候沒有使用萊克多巴胺?"},{"start":8010.751,"end":8021,"text":"或者是沒有檢出萊克多巴胺並無法得出飼養時沒有使用萊克多巴胺的結論。請院長作答。如果政府開放"},{"start":8022.352,"end":8023.833,"text":"議長的答案是上面還是下面?"},{"start":8049.147,"end":8073.583,"text":"是未檢出就等於沒有使用呢?還是不能有這樣的結論?在這裡的話,未檢出我們只能夠講說說沒有檢出。沒有檢出對不對?就是沒有檢出。好,院長沒有檢出不代表沒有使用才是正確的。但是委員,我們現在用萊克多巴胺的檢驗是用HPOC。HPOC是一個相當精準的檢驗的方法。"},{"start":8075.764,"end":8097.62,"text":"陳吉仲前部長說萊克多巴胺它的半衰期短代謝非常快24小時內會代謝掉八成根據我的精算大概只剩2%那農民只要在兩天前停藥事實上殘留量會大幅的衰減院長這個表示說未減出不代表未使用你同意嗎"},{"start":8098.58,"end":8125.982,"text":"我同意但是委員我要講的就是說您是藥學的專家所以我不敢跟你拔門弄斧但是呢但是我們現在各國都是用進口豬肉來做檢驗這也是唯一的標準也是國際標準謝謝院長謝謝院長好去年10月食藥署副署長說這幾年都沒有來豬進口院長如果我們剛剛有這樣的一個小共識沒有檢出未必代表沒有使用的話"},{"start":8127.023,"end":8150.467,"text":"那麼政府沒有減租,需要屬副總可不可以說都沒有來租進口?您同意這樣的說法嗎?實際上各國進口的標準都是按照進口豬肉減租,看看有沒有標準。當然您講的是對,也許它有用,但是進口的貨品,國際標準就是要進口豬肉的檢驗。其實我強調的是希望官員能夠把話講清楚。沒有減租"},{"start":8151.127,"end":8154.569,"text":"但是實際上國際標準不是這樣啦是按照進口豬肉來做檢驗那檢驗沒有萊克多巴胺就準進口這是國際標準"},{"start":8171.758,"end":8192.675,"text":"委員長我要請教在政府的公務出國報告資訊網的網站上我查到了八件公務員到美國進行肉品的這個查核報告是有關美牛的因為我們知道自從開放進口後政府要定期的查核但是但是2021年當政府要開放美豬來台時明明承諾要到美國查場"},{"start":8194.124,"end":8205.523,"text":"而且要通過的業者才能夠輸到臺灣可是我看了公務出國報告資訊網為什麼到目前為止一件美豬茶場案的報告都沒有目前掛零"},{"start":8207.182,"end":8233.211,"text":"院長到底美豬茶廠報告是機密嗎?還是有什麼不可告人的處呢?沒有,這個我想剛才衛務部部長說是有是茶廠,但是為什麼掛鈴我請他說明。部長,掛鈴?剛剛委員講的有一個地方不太正確啦。院長,部長我就請你說為什麼美豬茶廠是掛鈴?美牛茶廠有八件,美豬茶廠已經兩三年為什麼是掛鈴?"},{"start":8234.071,"end":8259.886,"text":"我們有去查了,那也許...好,那這樣是不是這樣子,這件事部長可不可以會後,就是我相信你們有報告,那你是不是會後馬上請將官機關上傳。我覺得國人有權利去了解這個檢查報告的內容,好嗎?好,委員查場很重要啦,但是進口的每一批豬肉都要檢查更重要。報告是公訂文書,我們了解,好。"},{"start":8261.567,"end":8289.081,"text":"院長,關於美國豬肉進口,食藥署是前後不同調的。2014年江副署長說,實地查核的範圍包括牧場、屠宰場及官方的衛生安全管制機制。透過實地查場,食藥署還可以直接指定只有合格牧場生產肉品才准進來。但是去年10月副署長林金富說,所謂的查場是系統性的查核,是雙方研議出幾家賞賬名單,再由我方去查核。"},{"start":8289.981,"end":8310.698,"text":"言下之意說並不是主場查核請稍後。2021年蘇貞昌院長為了推動開放美豬進口也在立法院承諾會赴美茶場通過的才可以進口也就是主場查驗精神請問院長您對於食藥署前後不同調您的看法是如何?"},{"start":8311.335,"end":8330.698,"text":"我想可能在國際的標準上在這9年間確實是有一些改變也說不定但是我們是最重要我還是在強調的是說在目前有一段時間委員我跟你講一下這個2023年面臨到COVID-19我們茶廠實際上也是有一些困難我承認"},{"start":8340.503,"end":8346.698,"text":"院長對於到底要實地主場查核還是所謂的系統性抽樣查核,您的想法呢?"},{"start":8347.815,"end":8372.513,"text":"應該是系統性查核因為不可能主場查核啦這個太負責任說法因為這個在打臉江玉敏也打臉蘇貞昌院長在立法院的承諾所以我說這是規定可能在幾年內都有些改變實要署說10年未檢出瘦肉精在下面103年到122年衛生單位於抽驗豬肉檢驗已行瘦體數也就是瘦肉精"},{"start":8373.594,"end":8397.898,"text":"總共19300件,結果均未檢出。這是他2月發的新聞稿。這個10年未檢出,院長您相信這個說法嗎?我當然相信。你相信這個說法?我可能要給你一些資料,你可能被騙了。好,我們先來看看。2015年、2018年農委會,這近10年內喔。剛才講的是進口。前端飼養。對。"},{"start":8401.455,"end":8423.108,"text":"獲得違法使用的、查獲違法使用瘦肉精而且開罰兩案,至少開罰兩案。這是第一個。分別有查出它的量、它的內容包括沙丁、鵪鶉跟萊特多巴胺都是禁用的兩個成分。這個是農委會前端的部分。"},{"start":8424.827,"end":8431.469,"text":"你剛剛說你相信食藥署10年無查出的這個說法那個是進口豬肉好下一張"},{"start":8433.243,"end":8458.648,"text":"事實上瘦肉精近5年都有違法使用。院長根據食藥署自己的國際期刊Journal of FDA同仁所投書的報告2011年到2015年抽驗1487份續產品檢測瘦肉精有34件不合格有24件為國內產品這邊張市長英文寫的這是第一個另外我要告訴院長監察院在2011年的時候"},{"start":8460.948,"end":8470.476,"text":"因為防檢局去檢測到非常高比率的違法使用瘦肉精所以他糾正了農委會抽驗頻度過低顯為善盡把關職責院長"},{"start":8476.889,"end":8477.709,"text":"現在我們在來討論銷售專跟這個後市場的這個問題"},{"start":8499.378,"end":8519.88,"text":"實要署說10年來未檢出,你覺得這個說法正確嗎?該這樣講嗎?我要看一下這個實要署的資料實要署的研究報告自己刊登在期刊國際期刊委員他這個資料是commercial livestock product就是說所有商業的續產品"},{"start":8521.201,"end":8526.063,"text":"我想這件事太離譜了就是說有這些資料還10年未檢出這個非常粗糙的一個說法院長這個是假訊息啊這是官方的假訊息啊10年未檢出"},{"start":8543.617,"end":8545.799,"text":"我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?"},{"start":8572.881,"end":8591.948,"text":"院長您看到這個號碼追溯號碼就是這次疑似西部特羅肉片的這個瘦肉精使用事件這個是有溯源資料我想知道衛福部到現在有沒有掌握這一批這一批的流向產品總量賣出的數量跟回收的數量有沒有這個數字"},{"start":8593.449,"end":8610.183,"text":"這個目前都已經有收集下來,都下架了。但是我們還沒有看到這個報告數字。已經檢驗了都沒有問題,都沒有含史普特羅。我要談的是,你的產品總量,如果你有數字非常好,趕快讓國人知道,如果"},{"start":8611.314,"end":8626.917,"text":"你沒有數字,那就是有點...同一批要九十幾件,大概都沒有好,好,那我要告訴我要告訴部長或院長,如果即便你有產品總量,我認為那是不正確的,為什麼呢?"},{"start":8628.083,"end":8653.533,"text":"一隻豬屠宰之後只會吃到肉品嗎?只賣出肉品嗎?人民只吃到肉品嗎?內臟賣不賣?肝臟賣不賣?你追溯的東西剛剛報告增加報告有幾千件是限制肉品為什麼我會這樣說呢?為什麼我會這樣說呢?好,院長請你先看這一張投影片的兩張照片左邊是台湯的梅花肉片"},{"start":8654.861,"end":8665.801,"text":"右邊是台堂的豬肝片,豬肝的包裝。他們都宣稱這一盒經得其考驗。請問院長你有看出這兩張照片有什麼不同嗎?"},{"start":8669.341,"end":8691.629,"text":"一個是豬肝一個是豬肉我來告訴院長答案因為我圈起來了這個肉片的部分它有溯源標章有個QR Code可以去掃有提供產銷履歷很好但是但是請看豬肝的部分空空的豬肝沒有溯源徽章沒有產銷履歷"},{"start":8693.322,"end":8720.002,"text":"沒有辦法溯源這個是不是每一個城牆事務院長主觀上什麼都沒有辦法溯源所以這次的產品總量我覺得有問題因為你沒有辦法溯源那國人是吃內臟的你同意國人是吃內臟的委員你是藥學的專家我剛才講過一群豬用同樣的飼料去餵養然後如果有瘦肉精在裡面"},{"start":8720.682,"end":8727.748,"text":"議員長,一隻豬假設吃下了瘦肉精,它只會停留在肉片嗎?當然不會嘛。但是所有的肉片,所有的肉片都沒有喔。哪一個地方含量比較高?假設要採檢時間喔。反正,議員長"},{"start":8749.925,"end":8773.7,"text":"豬肝沒有辦法溯源,內臟沒有辦法溯源,這是個敘事吧?我們這個豬肝的溯源的部分,我請...我這邊說明一下齁,我們國內的豬隻的溯源系統是第一個是採資源性的,那台湯的豬隻是有溯源的。我了解,這是資源性,它現在還不是強制性的齁,當然將來可以考慮,但是我要告訴現在是有偏差的。肉片有溯源,極致,但是內臟沒有。"},{"start":8776.857,"end":8792.245,"text":"未來可以考慮啦,未來可以考慮。這兩張等一下再讓院長來,交給院長來去處理。現在齁,台中市查出來的是肉片,不是說他內臟。內臟已經成了食安漏洞了。看看齁。"},{"start":8799.206,"end":8803.987,"text":"我們國家允許的殘留量含量你看肝臟腎臟跟肌肉是不一樣的肝臟是允許有4倍高"},{"start":8819.051,"end":8825.158,"text":"你我的醫學背景都了解。我覺得建議很好啦。未來內臟也要做檢查啦。如果今天不幸換成西部陀螺更油,這個數字不會只有4倍欸。"},{"start":8838.689,"end":8856.048,"text":"這是漏洞欸!這是西部特羅檢驗出來很低啊!我們要做很多預防,院長可不可以有個時程?因為本席認為內臟目前是食安的漏洞,那可不可能有一個時程去研議這件事情?怎麼樣?"},{"start":8882.006,"end":8899.219,"text":"謝謝陳委員遭致的質詢本席善意提醒一下衛福部薛部長你今天不是藐視國會是你講話國會聽不見你要不要喝一口熱茶帶個熱茶上台好不好我說你今天被詢的話麻煩帶個熱茶沒關係的我們都能理解好不好立法院很有人情味好謝謝"},{"start":8901.86,"end":8906.005,"text":"接下來我們請第二位執行委員李維園、崑禎時間15分鐘有請我們陳院長"},{"start":8928.554,"end":8953.606,"text":"委員恭喜你這個當選。謝謝,謝謝院長。院長今天是這個2月23號,那院長終於可以到立法院來做實案的專案報告了。那其實如果在2月19號朝野的協商的時候,民眾黨的黨團總召願意簽下那個朝野協商,老實說啊,院長你就可以提早三天,"},{"start":8954.486,"end":8970.088,"text":"二月二十號開議當天你就可以來做時安報告了對不對確實還好這三天我們都是持續的在把關這個時安本來是說二十號開議當天你就可以來做時安報告了但是有人不簽這個朝野協商嘛"},{"start":8970.709,"end":8971.09,"text":"民眾也更放心"},{"start":8991.81,"end":9018.552,"text":"對啊,因為民眾希望說能夠做實案報告,所以當然是希望你20號開業當天就來嘛,對不對?是。好,那雖然晚了三天齁,這個民眾還是想知道一下說,那到底在馬英九執政的時候跟蔡英文執政的時候,這實案到底有什麼不一樣?我剛剛聽了一下這個院長的報告齁,我先針對瘦肉計的部分來請教一下院長啦齁。在這個馬英九執政的時期齁,我查到了資料啦齁,我查到資料說有這個"},{"start":9020.454,"end":9040.152,"text":"違規使用售後金有抓到三個豬農使用這我查到資料那或許更多也不一定但是在蔡英文執政的時期有沒有查出有使用售後金的資料本地的豬農尤其是台湯我剛剛看到這個上一位陳委員他的資料他的資料是在2011到2015我們民進黨是2016才執政"},{"start":9043.875,"end":9057.702,"text":"所以那用的資料是在馬英九執政時期的資料啊那我請教一下在蔡英文執政這8年期間有沒有本地的豬農或是說台糖"},{"start":9058.924,"end":9081.733,"text":"這次的苦主有使用違規使用瘦肉精的台堂市沒有使用瘦肉精這是很確定的一件事情那在這一個豬農使用的狀況我請我們部長來補充說一下我想第一個說明就是近十年來第一個部分是近十年來本身在103、104的部分有兩件那106有兩件"},{"start":9083.234,"end":9102.626,"text":"那都是在那個租場端的時候就及時攔阻下來然後就那個100年上個10年就蠻多了大概有1000多件那包括就是有講執政前有執政後嘛對執政對那10年前是有執政時期對就是在97年特別是在97年那一年大概有800多件"},{"start":9103.146,"end":9121.859,"text":"那後來又降了大概到100多件左右那事實上整個的我們國內的豬廠我們禁用瘦肉精是一個政策所以這個政策是在那個情況之下我們一直希望說我們國內的豬隻的產業是不用瘦肉精的所以後來就開始逐漸的下降那從我們106年以後就沒有檢出"},{"start":9125.845,"end":9126.785,"text":"921比1921比1院長你知道這是什麼數字嗎?"},{"start":9153.995,"end":9175.401,"text":"921是這個885件全國豬肉的樣品加上台塘自己同批次的這個肉品的檢驗結果出來都是沒有檢驗到瘦肉精沒有含瘦肉精對沒有含西部特羅當然沒有那所以你看嘛包含衛福部、農業部、台塘自行檢驗到目前為止921件沒有問題"},{"start":9177.842,"end":9193.311,"text":"只有一件有問題那一件就是台中市政府檢查出來嘛對不對是那所以我們今天焦點就在於說那這一件天選之肉這一包肉到底是怎麼出來的這等一下我們就是要問就是說那因為我剛有聽到這個院長在講"},{"start":9196.192,"end":9217.085,"text":"行政院研判說這是屬於單一的檢體問題而非系統性的事件就這個單一檢體的問題能不能請院長或是部長再說明清楚一下單一檢體到底出現什麼問題單一檢體他們收到這個到市場去採購以後呢他拿回來就檢驗那檢驗的結果他"},{"start":9219.307,"end":9243.448,"text":"根據台中市的講法是有22次的檢驗,因為他檢驗不穩定。就檢驗那一塊肉嘛。對,就檢驗那一塊肉,對對對。那所以台中市政府在檢驗那一塊肉之外有沒有檢查同梯次的其他的肉,有沒有?沒有。沒有,那所以當時候他跟你們衛福部通知的時候說有檢查出希伏特羅了,那你們有沒有建議他們說同梯次的豬肉也去做檢查?"},{"start":9249.671,"end":9271.565,"text":"市場去採樣的時候,同時有找出另外一個,但是他不是統一批號,那是小牌,豬小牌肉,那個沒有檢出。所以他在那個福利站找了兩包,一包就是這一個,另外一包是一個小牌,沒有檢出。"},{"start":9272.746,"end":9294.112,"text":"我這邊可以稍微比較清楚的補充一下就是在2月2號整個的臺東市我們發布新聞稿以後我們當天下午就成立了一個專案小組我們馬上去找同一批的肉品因為他有溯源碼我們找同一批的肉品在2月3號的時候我們找到了9總共找到了9包那9包裡面我們分送了就是由我們續展會去檢驗的4包然後"},{"start":9296.573,"end":9324.333,"text":"那個二月部檢驗的兩包那另外我們有SGS去檢驗所以在2月4號的時候我們大概初步去認定整個同一批同品項的這個豬肉並沒有所謂的西部特羅的這個殘留的一個汙染所以我們完了以後我們繼續去找這個因為已經下架了所以我們陸陸續續從下架的去找同樣的一個批號那後續在持續的檢驗也都沒有"},{"start":9324.893,"end":9328.636,"text":"委員你是講的對了其實在我們一般的檢驗過程當中如果我們發現有哪一個弱品尤其它的含量很低很低這個時候是應該"},{"start":9347.01,"end":9347.07,"text":"那一塊肉。"},{"start":9367.085,"end":9389.872,"text":"我再請教一下現在就是說有查出來了就是說有4家業者有進口西部特羅那這個有12家衛生局跟12家的民間檢驗的機構那請問一下這12家的衛生局是不是含台中市政府當然含台中市政府那現在就是要查出來就是說你們除了做行政調查之外有沒有做司法的調查"},{"start":9391.193,"end":9416.736,"text":"我們是沒有進入司法的調查最主要的情況是第一個這一個檢驗出來的濃度是相對的低做司法調查的時候我們通常在食品事件上就擔心所謂的千面人事件如果千面人事件在任何的食品當中檢驗出來不會有那麼低的濃度那麼低的濃度有另外一種除了"},{"start":9417.557,"end":9432.214,"text":"我們剛才講到的污染可能性之外還有一種是檢驗本身的不準度啦所以這就是為什麼我們衛福部也好農業部也好我們的專家學者是從檢驗檢體的檢驗的程序上來做調查"},{"start":9434.316,"end":9446.427,"text":"行政調查歸行政調查但是檢調司法調查我認為要同步來進行因為我認為到最後不要讓這個案子成為懸案那我現在就是說我自己歸納就是現在包含我們行政部門或是說民間他們所提出來的"},{"start":9454.124,"end":9455.305,"text":"那對於柯文哲主席的說法,你們的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":9483.646,"end":9504.673,"text":"我想這只是其中之一的可能性那因為在這個溯源的情形不是很容易的因為他實際上採取檢體到公布的時間已經經過很長的一段時間而且這個實驗室本身並不像我們的實驗室有沒有可能性當然是有這種可能性有沒有要去做調查"},{"start":9505.493,"end":9533.38,"text":"那這個調查就需要學者專家來調查但是我剛才要跟委員強調的就是因為時隔相當長的時間而這個實驗室不像我們病毒的P3實驗室都有攝影啊都有很多的記錄嘛那在這樣的一個檢驗的實驗室裡面如果沒有這樣的記錄的話那是不容易查出那這是後續SOP的問題是是是這是後續的問題那就是說我舉例就是說好柯文哲說有可能"},{"start":9533.9,"end":9547.516,"text":"實驗室污染那第二個可能性呢就是你剛也有提到的簽名人這不是只有你提到這個嘉義縣養豬協會林市長林志達說這有可能是一個簽名人事件那有沒有朝這方面去查的這個可能性"},{"start":9548.387,"end":9573.793,"text":"在當時呢我們也瞭解了這一個實驗室呢他去市場採購的時候那個錄影帶有留下來那是沒有發現有任何異常的這個情況那現在就是說現在我認為啦行政調查當然你們昨天也開了會這衛福部農業部接下來開了會但是司法調查這部分我覺得還是要進行部長有話要說"},{"start":9575.855,"end":9585.887,"text":"跟委員說明台中地檢署有進行了解中哪一部分可能涉及刑責的部分涉及刑責的部分"},{"start":9587.059,"end":9613.838,"text":"這是哪一個範疇?因為有民眾檢舉,那我們會根據外界的一些看法來做一個進一步的了解。因為大家都認為說這個案子很重要,因為過年前發生了嘛,那我也不希望說用到最後後來就是沒什麼事情了,那變成一個懸案。那我認為行政司法都要去調查。那因為這件事情,我問一下部長,農委部長,豬肉有沒有受到影響?"},{"start":9614.959,"end":9643.337,"text":"價格有沒有受到影響?我想豬肉如果說我們從過年2月2號到過年前這段時間齁它的平均的豬肉的單價是90塊8它比去年農曆同樣的時段的時候是還比較高所以看起來我想我們國人對於我們國產豬肉的信心還是在的不會沒有因為這樣的一個事件而受到一些衝擊大家對台糖還是有信心就對了對台糖還是有信心對台糖有信心好但是對台糖有信心呢台糖是苦主啊"},{"start":9644.278,"end":9659.458,"text":"台湯是苦主。請問一下,台湯在這次的這個瘦肉精事件、西部特勒事件當中,他的損失有多少?直接的損失跟間接的損失有多少?台湯部長"},{"start":9660.48,"end":9676.131,"text":"剛剛委員報告齁那臺黨初步有那個統計一下那直接的損失是1700多萬那間接的損失是這個3000多萬所以他總共的這樣的損失大概是5200萬"},{"start":9677.523,"end":9699.319,"text":"就是到目前為止,時間損失就是因為下架,下架然後也不能賣。還有回收,還有人家退貨的,還有去花這些檢驗的費用,還有相關的人力的支出等等。這個部分大概是1700萬。你說間接損失呢?間接的3000多萬,是。它總共的初步的評估大概會損失5200萬。"},{"start":9701.3,"end":9714.813,"text":"好那我請教一下因為如果連盧秀燕她都說真相大白這是個案那請問一下台湯這些JP你們預防性下降這些豬肉大概沒辦法出了吧"},{"start":9716.405,"end":9716.906,"text":"五千兩百萬請問一下"},{"start":9744.907,"end":9755.366,"text":"那台堂去向誰求償啊?如果真的像盧秀恩講的啊,真相大白啦,這是個案啊,那我們這個行政部門查到目前為止921比1嘛。"},{"start":9757.23,"end":9784.802,"text":"那可見是個案的問題那我就問說好那台糖那些肉品何時才可以在市場然後台糖要去跟誰求償阿是所以我想台糖在這個地方是確實受到非常多的一個委屈啦那他也希望能夠盡速釐清那第二個讓台糖的盛運能夠恢復台糖的肉可以再去上架這個是台糖非常需要的對阿所以台糖就是被打了也不敢吭聲吧"},{"start":9787.458,"end":9804.343,"text":"明明盧修緣都講了這是個案真相大白了他還是沒有辦法比如說損失了5000多萬然後肉也不能再重新再上架然後大家對於台糖雖然有信心但是買的時候還是稍微疑慮了一下我認為台糖該求償的時候還是在求償"},{"start":9804.983,"end":9833.804,"text":"好那最後30秒請教一下院長如果重來一次會給地方政府隨便人建議SOP會做調整嗎好謝謝我想很重要的就是說這一個臺中市政府的檢驗室他面對這個很低劑量的這個檢出的時候呢他應該要把他的SOP做一個很好的修正舉一個例子比如說應該要趕快去找同一批的豬肉來檢查如果地方政府SOP沒辦法建立那我們中央"},{"start":9839.994,"end":9840.434,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請陳建倫院長麻煩請陳院長備詢"},{"start":9874.247,"end":9888.595,"text":"委員長好國人都關心食安這是為什麼本立法院要求您來率相關部會同仁來做食安專報應該的這一次我們強調瘦肉精的食安事件從過年前到現在"},{"start":9890.058,"end":9904.705,"text":"讓事件走偏的是中央的衛福部市長王必勝在第一時間地方政府驗出問題就是希望解決問題找出問題釐清原因但為什麼會看到說中央跟地方一時間不同步"},{"start":9905.245,"end":9925.898,"text":"也因此剛剛我先順著李昆城委員剛剛的一個質詢你也講到未來的事件本席也希望是說經過這次之後未來的事件你有提到地方政府如果說驗到太低的劑量的時候應該要再做同批次的一個檢驗對不對對好低是多低標準是什麼"},{"start":9926.628,"end":9933.638,"text":"我想這個會按照不同的說話金的因為現在的食安如果說檢驗食品發生異狀的話通報的機制為何?"},{"start":9937.945,"end":9967.525,"text":"現在的情形如果說我們檢驗出來有這個低劑量的這個情況下那他的地方政府呢當然就需要來通報但是我剛才講到當很低劑量的時候很可能是檢驗的我們現在是不是只有一個標準就是合格或不合格嗎對嘛就是檢出或不檢出現在的標準但是實驗室有一個實驗室的檢出標準那實驗室的檢出標準是0.001ppm那因為他很接近了我講一下"},{"start":9967.925,"end":9968.605,"text":"但是因為實驗的我講一下實驗他有一個"},{"start":9987.193,"end":9994.455,"text":"我想這一些部分中央要好說地方的實驗人員都非常清楚跟了解因為我們都相信地方政府不管是哪一個政府的實驗人員都是專業的"},{"start":10012.259,"end":10026.676,"text":"以專業考量跟專業對話但目前的通報機制就是如果說是中央指派的專案有登載系統可以回報檢驗結果但是如果是地方的專案稽查的話結果是自由自行保留即可而且"},{"start":10027.756,"end":10054.302,"text":"發現不合格的產品先將不合格的報告交給業者依據食品安全衛生管理法第39條來做15天的一個申請回覆如果說確認結果無疑的時候衛生機關單位就要對外公佈不合格的名單對阿是這樣規定是嘛也因此本席在講這次台中市政府是不是都是依照食品相關安全食品安全衛生管理來做通報來做規劃我現在請教院長"},{"start":10056.259,"end":10068.006,"text":"我要確認一次就是說實際上他檢驗出來以後剛才您講的很對要跟業者講業者要有15天的申訴期申訴完了以後再來說但是這一塊這一塊的操作台中市政府怎麼樣做他檢驗出來以後按照這個"},{"start":10078.973,"end":10102.083,"text":"這一個情形來看的話呢?本席只想確定啦。你先聽本席把問題問完你再回答。本席只想確定。既然你也認為是說這一次因為劑量有驗出本來是不得驗出的因為有驗出但是你認為你的主觀認定是相對低的也因此你覺得是說應該地方政府要多驗幾批肉"},{"start":10102.563,"end":10131.702,"text":"好那本席就說那未來是不是我們應該中央要開定一個全國的食安會議要求告訴我們地方政府後續應該怎麼做定出一個標準第一是多低多少的範圍裡面要求地方政府應該要再重新檢驗應該要做這樣的一個確定而不是今天看到台中市政府明天看到高雄市政府我就請教如果說今天另外一個縣市在驗出一樣的漏他要怎麼處理好"},{"start":10132.302,"end":10142.068,"text":"但是我剛講過的話,我現在只要問你是說你要怎麼做?有,台中市政府有要求臺堂,所以說台中市政府才會跟業者持續再溝通啊,也是確認啊。第二個就是我剛才講的,你剛才講說如果所有的實驗室要怎麼樣來加強它的這個檢驗的水準,"},{"start":10162.1,"end":10166.283,"text":"委員長你搞錯本席的問題的方向本席現在要做的是除了我們這次的事件以外接下來我們怎麼樣加強中央跟地方同心一致"},{"start":10182.293,"end":10188.034,"text":"那就是過去沒有標準什麼時候要訂出標準?這個SOP我們會請專家學者來討論那我們盡快的可能在一兩個月的時間內就會訂出標準"},{"start":10209.359,"end":10226.422,"text":"兩個月內開全國的食安檢討會議這個不一定要開全國的檢討會議這有專家學者會議其實就能夠做不同的成分不同的化學品所以兩個月內由誰召開當然是由食藥署食藥署署長"},{"start":10227.594,"end":10243.893,"text":"當然阿是不是來那本席再請教喔昨天有提到說我們的所謂專家學者會議阿那在媒體報導裡面有講是說傳出台中的列席代表淚灑會場院長或是部長有沒有知道這個訊息"},{"start":10245.241,"end":10271.903,"text":"我是沒有接到這樣的訊息,不過在看到媒體報導,有沒有去了解一下為什麼會有,照理講地方的食藥,地方的這個衛生人員他們也很有專業,在過年這段期間不眠不休怎麼會說一個專家食安會議造成他淚灑會場。所以專業跟科學的事情的話用情緒去處理是不對的。"},{"start":10272.932,"end":10292.036,"text":"你現在在講是誰用情緒去處理?所以你現在在指責臺中的...不是,部長您這樣的回答本席很不精準,本席沒有辦法聽得懂你的回答是什麼意思。我必把這件事情當成一件事去處理。"},{"start":10296.318,"end":10320.071,"text":"其實在昨天的這個開會的過程當中那有沒有淚灑怎麼樣說這個都是媒體的報導那我沒有辦法去查證可是有一件事情是很重要在昨天的討論的過程當中我們的專家學者就是就實驗室的操作的過程當中是怎麼樣來操作有做很詳盡的調查也許在這樣調查的過程當中讓這個被"},{"start":10324.574,"end":10327.635,"text":"院長您提到的重點來了從過去到現在本席也好或說國人也好"},{"start":10339.699,"end":10358.176,"text":"就對於是說所謂的專家會議也有人建議因為這事關全民的不管是食品安全或是過去疫情期間國人使用疫苗等等相關安全我們都講說專家會議是不是能夠比照比如說像美國能夠用全程直播的方式讓大家也了解專家的會議專業的對話"},{"start":10360.658,"end":10380.189,"text":"或者是專家會議裡面可以有對外的一個會議記錄。但是過去是都有但全都是去標示化而且都是過了一個月兩個月才出來啊。我們這一次的會議不是不像你這樣講的,你誤解了。因為是還沒有出來啊。院長說2月21號的會議有絕情自拋報告你就下結論就不好啦。2月21號的會議有公開嗎?"},{"start":10390.074,"end":10411.061,"text":"所以院長我必須說就是您剛剛講的話您剛剛講說不是像我所講的我剛剛講的每一句話都是事實再來第二個部分過去我們講是說我們的專家會議可不可以公開專家會議的結果我們等到結論出來了以後我們當然會公開啊但是過程沒有辦法公開過去當然有啊有些有公開是啊有"},{"start":10412.196,"end":10433.241,"text":"我必須再糾正您喔如果說有公開的專家會議您可以再給本席後續再給本席資料但是過去好幾次重大的包括疫苗的審定包括這一次的一個食安會議專家會議都沒有公開也因此才會造成您剛剛講的就是說您也不清楚說爆傳台中市代表淚灑是什麼原因"},{"start":10433.741,"end":10453.249,"text":"因為大家都沒有看到過程,但是現在台中市政府有媒體去問確實有類撒這樣的一個狀況嗎?現在再請教院長,部長不用插話,依照立法院職權新施法本席有要求您發言的時候您再發言,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":10455.03,"end":10473.936,"text":"來院長所以重點院長我可不可以請教什麼時候這個專家會議結論會出來好那個3月份的時候我們就3月幾號現在是2月23號對啊我們3月的時候會出來因為我們可能還要決定要不要開第二次的會議等等所以但是我可以跟委員講這個"},{"start":10475.316,"end":10485.464,"text":"對阿等到等到最後的時候好院長我確定喔因為之前有好幾次會議是開會的委員名單沒有公告所以您剛剛已經在本時的質詢答覆的時候已經特別講了這一次受漏金的事件開會委員名單會公告是好謝謝院長"},{"start":10504.158,"end":10512.014,"text":"院長接下來我想利用一點時間因為施安跟施安一樣重要的國安議題也正在發酵那我想 請問施安嗎"},{"start":10513.03,"end":10534.193,"text":"對沒有錯但是因為這一今天國安議題也持續在發酵我想2月14號就有發生過這個陸船來到金門的這個事件而造成這個翻覆我不會問您細節您放心我現在只要請教您幾個比較關鍵性的議題也是家國人大家都關注的就是說在這一個過程裡面想請教一下"},{"start":10536.087,"end":10562.741,"text":"院長因為現在我們看到針對海巡署的相關的這些管理條例來講他是必須執勤辦法他是必須在執勤的時候穿著制服並且以照相錄音錄影的方式來修正保全相關的事證那現在傳出說2月14號我們的執法人員並沒有密錄器然後船上也沒有攝影設備你什麼時候知道這個事情的"},{"start":10563.803,"end":10574.974,"text":"這件事情是昨天我有了解到有這樣的狀況那最主要的是你到昨天才知道嗎我們來講那個兩件事第一個就是說他本身帶的這個攝影的"},{"start":10584.813,"end":10598.447,"text":"委員長因為這件事件是一個國安事件本席再次重申立場本席絕對支持我們的執法人員依法行政依法行政的其中一個部分就是我們有所謂的"},{"start":10599.261,"end":10628.36,"text":"海巡執法作業規範對在第九條裡面清楚明白寫著要以照相錄音錄影或修正方式保全事證或者是說遇到反抗或攻擊的時候全程錄影照相存證依規定通報反映好那請教二月十四號下午一點多發生的事情什麼時候您接獲到海委會跟您做一個通盤的報告海委會通盤的報告我們陸陸續續都有討論所以第一時間第一開始的時候什麼時候跟您回報的"},{"start":10629.093,"end":10629.495,"text":"第二天2月15日"},{"start":10634.448,"end":10659.288,"text":"那什麼時候您知道?您有沒有好奇有沒有詢問是說那過程因為國人大家都在看啊照理講你有秘錄器啊2019年的時候臺委會的主委就已經在立法院答詢是說我們的海巡弟兄在任何的這種執行的時候都有掛秘錄器你有沒有詢問秘錄器相關或者說當天發生的一個事實我2月15號的時候沒有問他因為我不太清楚這個相關的規定"},{"start":10659.929,"end":10681.235,"text":"您不太清楚相關規定那到什麼時候您再清楚在大家在討論說這個到底當時整個的這個在做好這一個抵制這一個船入境的這個情況的時候那大家在講到收證的時候我才曉得說他們沒有收證"},{"start":10682.672,"end":10701.483,"text":"這個原因最主要的是因為當時的時間很短暫那他們沒有帶隨身的這個相關的密錄器而且呢他們也沒有因為時間很短就只有不到1分鐘的反應的時間所以他們來不及錄影"},{"start":10702.103,"end":10730.882,"text":"這是我所得到的訊息你所得到的訊息但是現在我們今天早上也有徐巧興委員這邊拿到相關的資料是其實這過程裡面有3、40分鐘而不是如同現在海巡署這邊講的一個記者會說只有5分鐘的時間沒關係這個會再做查證但是院長我再請當然留待偵查所以說我今天也講說徐巧興委員他拿到的資料徐巧興委員他拿到的是爆料者吹哨者的一個資料"},{"start":10731.442,"end":10732.924,"text":"國務委員馬上就想請問海巡署一年預算有多少錢?"},{"start":10747.503,"end":10750.866,"text":"250億扣掉人事費用130億還有120億我們120億的一個預算裡面過去民進黨執政了8年的時間想到連給一個執行人員一個密錄器都沒有辦法嗎?"},{"start":10765.679,"end":10778.506,"text":"兩百五十億裡面只佔了你說用第二預備金只有兩千多萬照理講早就應該給每一個執行人員不是嗎?如果說每一個執行人員都有密錄器的話今天拿出密錄器的資料就不用各說各話就不用猜什麼"},{"start":10803.524,"end":10805.505,"text":"謝謝紅委員孟凱的質詢。接下來請登記第4號紅委員申翰請質詢。謝謝院長。那請這個陳院長。麻煩請陳院長備詢。"},{"start":10832.938,"end":10858.939,"text":"院長今天我們的食安專報我想社會其實等了一段時間尤其是最近這個非常非常受到全國注目的這個臺堂的希伯特羅的事件其實從過年前到現在今年的過年我其實在台中過那我自己就很經歷了這個"},{"start":10861.912,"end":10888.653,"text":"這個附近的街訪鄰居就在問說哇臺東市政府驗出了這個豬肉裡面有西部特羅那到底這個哪些豬肉有西部特羅那到底影響的範圍有多廣那他到底該不該再去買豬肉其實這個在過年期間都讓很多我們一般的民眾有很多的困惑我自己就經歷這個事因為我這次"},{"start":10889.921,"end":10911.634,"text":"國年其實是在台中過的所以院長我其實有幾個問題我們今天在食安專報的時候我們其實需要來討論第一件事情當然食安的問題其實就是一個風險管理的問題那在這個風險管理的問題的時候尤其是面對的是行政端當然大家一定會問的一個最核心的命題其實就是"},{"start":10912.534,"end":10912.934,"text":"那下一張齁"},{"start":10933.086,"end":10953.076,"text":"所以這個大概是我們做了一些整理也就是現在的時間軸那從目前資料看出來從2月15號臺中市政府抽驗第一次驗出在台湯的豬肉有這個以行獸體數希伯特羅的這個事件那到2月2號中市府發出新聞稿宣稱驗出"},{"start":10954.316,"end":10983.214,"text":"那後面開始陸陸續續從農業部、續場會、SGS等等的一路那甚至在最近是由臺南衛生局來檢驗但是都是未檢驗出但我其實比較好奇的事情就會是在1月15號到2月2號這中間的間隔這18天這18天我想先我也請那個王部長可不可以進一步王部長我可不可以請問一下"},{"start":10985.094,"end":10989.057,"text":"就臺堂公司是在哪一天收到臺中市政府的通知?跟委員報告好,臺中市政府臺堂是在這個2月2號他對外新聞稿之後我們其實才知道所以意思是說在2月2號新聞稿之前"},{"start":11007.535,"end":11036.755,"text":"其實臺東市政府並沒有告知台南公司這件事情。完全沒有。所以你們是看了新臺東公司是看了新聞稿才發現的。是。那這完全不合規定啊。對。照理來說剛才說他其實要先通知廠商給廠商15天的時間。15天到了以後才有公告或公布這個不合規定的廠商。按照我們的法規程序是這樣啊對不對。可是這樣看起來臺東市政府並沒有合乎規定啊。"},{"start":11038.41,"end":11055.51,"text":"我說實話我一開始看到新聞的時候我想說臺東市政府是不是真的很心急很想要一言出趕快來告知社會提醒社會結果後來看到的資料不是這樣這中間其實臺東市政府默默的自己搞了18天的時間"},{"start":11057.883,"end":11072.592,"text":"這個部長或者是院長我想請問喔如果按照一個食安管理的專業的話這18天其實台中市政府應該要完成哪些事情或者是在他這個公佈前應該要完成哪些事情就食安專業來說"},{"start":11074.871,"end":11101.186,"text":"跟委員報告他其實一開始驗到的時候應該是在15號採樣之後的幾天那時候他一開始驗到的時候應該就是要去找同批的來double check但是實驗台中的實驗室這邊的話他是卻對同一個檢體在多次的double check二十多次對不對對"},{"start":11103.29,"end":11119.149,"text":"我們現在其實陸陸續續把這個事情給釐清了我說實話我剛才聽到前面的這個洪孟楷委員剛才一直在說這個中央政府要訂SOP但現在看到的問題反而是台中政府連既有的規定都沒有遵守阿"},{"start":11121.485,"end":11136.026,"text":"你說他很急的公布,他有沒有急啊?他其實搞了18天啊。這18天明明就有很多可以做的事情,包括剛剛說到,如果你就很馬上的去市場上面找出同一批諸葛來做相關的檢驗。"},{"start":11136.947,"end":11157.832,"text":"或者是你跟中央通知了以後找中央一起來釐清有沒有跨縣市的因素我覺得這些都很好至少在你發新聞稿公布的時候社會大眾臺中市民會知道說看起來是有驗出可是大致這個事件是一個什麼樣的事件影響範圍多廣我到底要不要恐懼恐慌這件事情"},{"start":11158.192,"end":11177.634,"text":"至少大眾就不會遇到我在過年時間我們街坊鄰居的這種擔憂嘛對不對可是現在看起來這是台中市政府該做而未做的事情今天我們大家是在討論這個問題所以我要說今天我們從不管是這個有很多的民意代表我們並不是跟台中市政府說你不該"},{"start":11179.295,"end":11200.298,"text":"你不該公布我們不是說你不該公布當然驗到了秉持著透明的原則該公布就公布這沒有問題但現在的問題是好像你在公布前有明明很多該做的事情你沒做到反而才造成這個社會不必要的恐慌嘛院長是不是這樣子最重要的一件事情就是剛才你提到的"},{"start":11200.638,"end":11215.464,"text":"他應該要有15天的時間讓臺堂申請復驗才能夠公佈完全沒有做到那這18天的時間他沒有去通知臺堂給臺堂來有一個申請復驗的機會這就是沒有按照SOP"},{"start":11216.044,"end":11241.338,"text":"其實如果是台湾市政府的話我如果在1月15日宴出我如果一兩天內我就通知台湾我給15天我其實可能還是可以在2月2日的時候公布可是我可以在2月2日前就把該做的事情給做完我還可以同時把同批的豬肉都檢驗完成讓大家知道不用那麼擔心也許真的就只有這一塊天選之肉是遇到了問題其實社會不會這麼多恐慌的"},{"start":11241.678,"end":11268.678,"text":"所以我們現在說的都不是台中市政府不該公布可是我覺得很遺憾有一度現在這個不管是在來黨把它扭曲成現在執政黨是說好像台中市政府不該公布並不是我們是說你該公布前該做的事情沒有做我想這是最重要的事情院長我下面接下來要請問因為我想我們其實都學過科學我們都進過實驗室的工作裡面其實這件事情發生以後我有很多過去跟我們一起在有實驗室工作經驗的人他直接就說"},{"start":11269.807,"end":11270.447,"text":"下一張喔再往下"},{"start":11294.935,"end":11300.966,"text":"其實我們把幾個可能的因素其實列出來我一個一個想請教院長跟部長"},{"start":11302.623,"end":11331.347,"text":"現在為什麼只有臺中市臺中的奈何豬肉宴出第一個我想問養殖場是不是有含有西伏特羅成分的藥品目前我先跟委員說明齁就是豬的那個進到屠宰場是統進統出所以我們第一時間我們就移動管制以後去針對那個豬場去做所有的清查是沒有的然後我們也清查了飼料飼料沒有所以這個養殖場是沒有的對不對那飼料的部分有沒有"},{"start":11331.867,"end":11350.961,"text":"對那同樣的飼料我們也是同步在檢查包括豬隻檢查飼料檢查如果這兩個沒有的話那相對的他在這個豬場使用的西部特羅應該是不會有的好所以養殖場沒有豬場沒有飼料上面也沒有那我要問現在檢查的同一批豬肉目前查了多少同一批豬肉有沒有驗出來"},{"start":11352.368,"end":11366.527,"text":"我所了解現在目前的同一批豬肉從2月2號公布以後我們開始去查到目前為止同一批同品項的豬肉都沒有同一批同品項豬肉也沒有那有沒有進口的豬肉混沖到"},{"start":11367.108,"end":11393.153,"text":"那有關於整個的一個豬肉的屠宰特別是台堂是一個履歷驗證人他是委託縣公去做屠宰那屠宰場本身他有HACCP的一個認證那我們也調查了整個當天的屠宰的過程中只有台堂的那一批豬肉進到屠宰場並沒有其他的豬肉進到這個屠宰場裡面去所以不會有其他的豬肉去做粉蔥所以院長我們"},{"start":11393.677,"end":11408.2,"text":"﹗"},{"start":11408.499,"end":11423.168,"text":"我能夠想到三句法我們只能用一個科學的邏輯來處理這個問題所以不是養殖場看起來飼料裡面沒有同一批也沒有也不是進口混充甚至剛才說進到這個屠宰場只有這一批對不對"},{"start":11423.948,"end":11441.767,"text":"那在這個狀況裡面坦白說真的讓大家很難不懷疑是實驗室但我要說我們目前沒有直接的證據說一定是實驗室事件我們也看到新聞看到臺中市的這位人員在專家會議裡面看起來是有些情緒也許他也覺得委屈但不管怎樣"},{"start":11443.849,"end":11469.586,"text":"從刪去法來看的話大家現在很難不懷疑是實驗室事件我覺得這邊有一些大家必須互相體諒的事情至少這邏輯上面是很清楚的我們用科學的邏輯來看待這個風險管理的事情那接下來我要再問了一個問題包括這個王部長部長再往下部長這個台糖公司有一份公文"},{"start":11470.796,"end":11500.175,"text":"那發文給臺中市政府要求市政府應該要加驗同批的豬肉這個臺黨有發這個公文嘛對不對對是那臺中市政府怎麼回應臺中市政府其實沒有回我們那我們是看到他在媒體講說他沒有沒有這樣的一個機制我看到2月17他有一份公文他上面寫說欠男受理後來他回我們了是他說欠男受理那他講欠男受理的理由是什麼"},{"start":11501.223,"end":11526.034,"text":"他的意思是說我都是我主動來抽驗那如果每個人都送給我要求我驗的話他說沒有這樣的一個機制部長你覺得這個拒絕的理由合理嗎但是因為這件事情對台糖影響太大對台灣的豬肉影響太大所以當時我們才會希望地方政府可不可以就同批肉的來前後檢驗其實我們是想要確認這樣的事情"},{"start":11527.295,"end":11534.113,"text":"市長不只你希望知道我跟你說就連我自己就是說我說我過年在臺中我們有很多親戚朋友都在臺中"},{"start":11534.949,"end":11558.942,"text":"有很多的臺中市民都想知道到底如果看到一塊豬肉有西布特羅到底影響的範圍有多廣同批豬肉是不是都有我想這連很多臺中市民都想知道的事情如果不是台南發文我覺得很多臺中市民都想發文要求你是不是應該驗同批豬肉啊所以我想問部長你覺得剛剛說他說他現在拒絕的理由你覺得合不合理"},{"start":11561.54,"end":11585.068,"text":"我想這是台中市的職權所以這個台堂我們後來也中央政府請其他的地方去抽那我們台堂也把所有同批肉找的到都找到以後也讓大家來驗然後也找第三方來驗你們後來現在是給台南來驗嘛對不對是那台南就願意驗了嘛對不對我聽看起來台南比台中市政府更有科學精神啊"},{"start":11585.968,"end":11607.459,"text":"我看起來台南市政府比台中市政府更想了解真相阿我其實真的不懂一個想了解食安真相的地方政府為什麼會拒絕我真的不懂你有這麼多的市民想知道到底真相是什麼你到底有什麼理由拒絕你有什麼理由不想再驗了是台中市的實驗室能量不足嗎部長"},{"start":11609.629,"end":11621.83,"text":"這個我沒有辦法置評但是我覺得因為豬肉對國人是一個非常重要的一個產品所以我們覺得很想很想快一點讓大家有信心對"},{"start":11622.662,"end":11649.135,"text":"因為我從一開始看到這新聞的時候我覺得盧市長看起來好像是一個食安的守護者很勇於的去揭露公布他驗到的事情可是大家越了解以後越發現事實不是這樣啊你在公布前本來就有很多該做的事情沒有做造成了一定程度的恐慌但後面當今天有更多人想要請你離親的時候想要請你加驗的時候結果你又拒絕我覺得這態度很奇怪啊"},{"start":11651.08,"end":11670.354,"text":"這個態度讓我不覺得臺中市是一個食安守護者的態度啊我覺得是一個食安守護者的地方政府的話我該做我有很多該做的事情他沒做啊我覺得這是大家現在最困惑的地方最後部長再往下齁部長現在我們當然這幾天有跟臺商公司所資啦齁那看到"},{"start":11671.264,"end":11697.747,"text":"這一次同批商品下架總共是1.7公噸臺湯公司估計損失直接跟間接的總共大概5000多萬元動員人力大概是700多萬而且重點是這個動員的人力恐怕很多都是在春節的年假期間是嗎對不對沒有錯所以我們也看到有很多臺湯的業務跟相關沒有辦法休息的人員出來在媒體上面有講他們也很想哭這樣子那"},{"start":11699.69,"end":11721.295,"text":"可是我最後想要反映一件事情其實這件事情我們在立法院談了快一個月的時間談了幾個禮拜的時間也許三個禮拜的時間其實我們有很多的市民大眾朋友他請我務必一定要跟經濟部跟台堂跟行政院反映這一次的事件看起來"},{"start":11722.954,"end":11735.159,"text":"現在釐清至今有很多這個包括豬農包括很多的廠商民運是有受損我們剛剛看到間接直接的損失他們都問我一個事情是我們"},{"start":11764.783,"end":11770.991,"text":"謝謝紅委員深汗的質詢。接下來我們請登記第五位廖委員為詳質詢。"},{"start":11797.142,"end":11802.145,"text":"報告院長,請行政院長陳建仁院長請行政院陳院長備詢。首先恭喜你當選立委。謝謝院長。"},{"start":11815.199,"end":11835.046,"text":"院長上週四2月15號你在新春團拜的時候說你當這個你被問到今年祈禱是什麼時候你說你要自我檢討因為過去一年你做錯了很多事情那想要請教有沒有包括2月1號當天台中演出含禁藥肉品後中央的處置"},{"start":11836.227,"end":11850.942,"text":"當然沒有,我們天主教徒每一天早上我啦,每天去參加彌撒的時候,我們都會跟天主來祈禱。那我們做錯很多事,譬如說我是不是對人誠懇啊,對朋友交代的事有沒有做得很好,不包括這件事。"},{"start":11851.642,"end":11875.788,"text":"是,但是在2月7號的時候施要署也復驗出西部特羅那我們薛瑞元部長和吳秀梅署長也說排除實驗室問題結果到了15號後為什麼卻又開始帶風向說要查台中的實驗室委員我可以,好這個實驗室的問題是實驗的標準作業流程是沒有問題因為兩邊都檢測出來0.002ppm但是"},{"start":11880.009,"end":11880.769,"text":"剛才洪森漢委員在做這種消去法的情形"},{"start":11906.704,"end":11906.864,"text":"當然阿!"},{"start":11936.517,"end":11959.753,"text":"這就是我們剛才為什麼講的所以你都排除所有可能性你認為唯一的可能就是實驗室污染對嗎?沒有即使在所有的操作上臺中市政府有件事情沒有做好這件事情就是他18號來採檢以後他檢出來第一次檢出來如果有問題應該要給臺堂15天的深複檢驗的期間沒有做然後他就直接發布消息"},{"start":11960.573,"end":11983.904,"text":"所以你現在講的前面的過程我們怎麼做我們在養殖場我們在屠宰場我們在同一批的豬肉統統檢驗的時候都沒有檢驗出來900多件沒有檢驗出來所以換言之你是不是認為這是只有實驗室污染這一個可能剛才用排除法的情況下所有的可能性都沒有了只有這個實驗室這個檢體檢驗的出來"},{"start":11987.205,"end":12008.458,"text":"那我想請問你覺得過程中是哪裡有問題?你覺得是不是要專家學者來判斷啊?但是依照台中市政府的講法他們在這個標準品的混充的時候跟這個豬肉也完全是分開驗的那如果實驗室有汙染的話他從中間查驗了40包肉為什麼只有一包肉有驗出西部特羅這是第一個點"},{"start":12009.598,"end":12023.458,"text":"第二個點中央明明知道我們地方研究室配置的標準品的地點空間人員跟豬肉被檢驗的地點空間人員都是不同的地方而且都是完備證明也是依照你們的標準去操作的"},{"start":12024.714,"end":12043.911,"text":"第三點,中央官員跟中央的專家也都參加了復驗。中央也另外派人審查過臺中市的實驗室的,前面也都先確定沒有問題的。卻又推翻說沒有問題的認定,先設建再劃板,浪費行政資源開一個專家會議。請問你有新的事證證明說他們的這個實驗室有污染嗎?你剛剛是不是說沒辦法?"},{"start":12049.115,"end":12068.533,"text":"現在在整個實驗室18號到後來2月2號公布這個期間已經過了兩個禮拜的時間而且也沒有什麼樣的攝影的機制在所以我們真的沒有辦法去看那段時間有沒有錯誤但是最嚴重的事情就是在這18天裡面沒有做第二個檢體的檢驗而且沒有讓"},{"start":12073.136,"end":12093.086,"text":"我想問一下院長,食藥署跟中央是不是可以跨部會整合去抽驗其他同批次的豬肉?但是,我們已經驗了,結果都沒有驗出來。而且更重要的,他從來沒有請求中央來說來協助他,沒有啊,所以就公佈了啊。"},{"start":12093.886,"end":12100.228,"text":"所以這真的公佈合理嗎?15天的時間都沒有給臨時訪問。您稍等我一下,您說的同批豬肉,對,您先等我一下。您們一直在講同批豬肉,查到的。可是就我們這裡溯源編碼確認,總共這批豬肉瘦出了372公斤。"},{"start":12115.333,"end":12115.593,"text":"我跟妳講妳要問齁"},{"start":12130.723,"end":12141.311,"text":"如果一群豬吃了瘦肉精,這個瘦肉精只會跑到一隻豬的那一塊豬肉才奇怪。那我想請問,這3%裡面有一包被驗出來了,你確保其他97%完全沒有問題?當然是喔!"},{"start":12146.415,"end":12172.768,"text":"所以你覺得你這3%裡面有一包驗出來你97%就完全都沒問題我跟委員說明一下齁就是豬的一個飼養是孔徑統豬的你講的食安是科學一邊是科學你講的是政治喔所以沒有我講的不是政治我跟你講的是你們剛剛講的是實驗室可是從中間這6個月的倉儲的問題還有這3%的問題其他的同批豬肉你也沒辦法全部找回來內臟也沒辦法全部找回來的情況之下"},{"start":12173.208,"end":12194.325,"text":"你也不能夠完全推斷說就是實業室有問題你沒有不講科學嘛這裡沒有不講科學我剛剛講出的疑點都是現在的問題同一批豬同樣的飼料去飼養然後同一個除災場去除災如果要有的話絕對不會只有一個檢體上是有的那你現在說你這個母體只有3%喔"},{"start":12195.606,"end":12206.51,"text":"你還有剩下97%你追蹤不回來包含內臟你也追蹤不回來剛剛陳昭之委員問的你內臟也追蹤不到嘛那內臟是不是這個時候會更高的地方那為什麼只有這一塊肉是陽性現在的問題不是你反直血"},{"start":12211.192,"end":12212.913,"text":"二月22日衛福部跟農業部又分別召開專家會議。"},{"start":12233.619,"end":12255.082,"text":"結果當下沒有馬上把這個會議內容公開出來然後反而是要全部統籌起來你們再統一公布這樣的做法以前也沒有這樣以前也會公開出來我想要請問這樣子透明公開很難嗎而且專家會議的紀錄拖延同批的豬肉早就被吃下肚也查不了現在用這種方式去混淆焦點這不就是帶風向嗎"},{"start":12257.123,"end":12277.212,"text":"所以我認為這件事情在處理的過程中你們在過去一年的措施我認為應該是包含這件事情我覺得你的稿子講的錯了啦這一個所有的專家委員會議就是我們大家一起來好好討論討論完了以後有一定的時間以後我們會對外公布嘛所以你這樣講是不對的啦接下來這是一個八年食安的專案報告"},{"start":12282.674,"end":12296.349,"text":"所以早上院長你親口向這個立法院的報告說你說大幅增加查驗我認為你是在說謊因為根據我們跟農業部調的株枝已行受體數的瘦肉精監測結果的歷年統計"},{"start":12299.574,"end":12315.451,"text":"檢驗次數在103年的時候還有14000多件,結果民進黨執政8年第一年105年掉到12000多件。看看過去10年的變化,到了這個112年的時候只剩下5900多件,大幅縮小了57%。"},{"start":12317.308,"end":12330.244,"text":"那是因為在那一段時間很多的樣本是有瘦肉精所以才要做檢驗那當我們檢驗到後來沒有的時候當然不需要那麼大量那你是不是打臉你早上說大幅增加檢驗量呢"},{"start":12334.108,"end":12352.478,"text":"數據會說話,你早上說的是你大幅增加了檢驗的能量這個情形是對瘦肉精來講,我講的是對整體的情形來做檢驗的再來我要問一下你這個東西在很危險的情況下當然要大量檢驗,就是因為在103到106有很多很多的瘦肉精的使用嘛"},{"start":12354.18,"end":12366.581,"text":"所以你後面減少你就是推斷都沒有了才會減少可是你早上明明說的事情叫做你增加了你是不是自我打臉所有的選頁項目是增加了你現在只找收入金這一項是不公平的啦"},{"start":12367.667,"end":12391.439,"text":"我再問你們一個我們看中央政府到底重不重視食安喔就從食品安全業務的中央最高編組行政院的食安會報的設置來看而這個會報是不是每三個月就應該開一次會不包含臨時會所以換句話說每一年至少要開四次會議請問你們的行政院的食安會報有沒有按照規定定期開會有啊我在這的時候都是定期開會啊"},{"start":12392.239,"end":12413.291,"text":"有那你就是騙人囉因為我去查到資料這兩年2022年到2023年都沒有準時開會這兩年每一年尤其2022年包含我們衛福部長應該升為食安衛報的執行長在2022年跟2023年每年都只參加一次另外每一年還另外缺食兩次"},{"start":12414.392,"end":12438.551,"text":"在沒有準時開會的前提下過去8年也只開了24次會但是你知道衛福部長身為食安會的執行長當中缺席了幾次嗎?他有些時候有重要的任務他會不來這是我們可以了解但是你不要把COVID-19的時間的狀況拿來講你現在在疫情很盛行的情況下大家忙著疫情的時候但是這8年來我們的食安做得還是很好沒有開會還做得很好啊"},{"start":12443.695,"end":12458.06,"text":"所以8年：好你說做得很好我等一下再講8年來有一半的食安匯報我們的食安匯報執行長也就是衛福部長都缺席有一半而且我還抓包你們不止一年行政院食安匯報的次數還會灌不水你們2017年跟2019年開一次會變成兩次會議"},{"start":12465.421,"end":12477.55,"text":"我想要請問你們2017年2019年開一次會斷水變成兩次是不是當時還議比較重要比食安更重要2017年2019年防疫2022年2023年防疫現在在講的那個時間很多時間對啊院長你要認真看時間2019到2022年院長你要認真看時間"},{"start":12487.518,"end":12510.006,"text":"你的疫情期間我剛剛已經排除2020、2021我現在講是2022跟2023還有包含2017還有包含2017跟2019好那我就講2023嘛2023你是不是也開不足夠2023我當行政院長啊我每三個月開市場會報啊你再說以前的行政院長不認真那我再說說疫情期間嘛那我再另外講一下"},{"start":12511.57,"end":12535.61,"text":"就我們的部長已經就任以後上一次開會食安匯報是2023年3月27日也就是說到現在已經有333天沒有參加過食安匯報了我想請問院長如果你很重視食安你們會是這樣子對待食安匯報的嗎?食安如果按照食安匯報就能夠解決那我們不要跨部會的努力啦也不要跟地方政府合作啦"},{"start":12535.97,"end":12557.633,"text":"不是這樣,時安會報只是綜合性的來報告而已啦。綜合性報告不就是掌握進度會跨部會追蹤嗎?掌握進度不是只靠一次會報啦,來三個月做一次來得及嗎?時安是你們每天都應該努力。平常當然就應該努力,可是參加時安會報難道不是你們新疆院最高編組的會報嗎?"},{"start":12558.874,"end":12588.334,"text":"不能夠用食安匯報就來認為這個食安我們有沒有重視你想想看這一個台中市發布消息以後每一天都在做這個瘦肉精的重視那難怪我想要告訴院長所以因為你們這種態度所以2023年你們發生非常多的重大的食安事件冷凍藍莓在邊境被稽查出有A肝病毒但卻發生了14000多包流入市面17000多公斤被賣出或食用"},{"start":12589.374,"end":12608.806,"text":"同樣在2023年的上半年的邊境稽查就至少超過50多批的日本草莓、智利櫻桃被驗出農藥、禁藥也不必說逐批的這個流入市面的追查進度喔至今讓大家都不明白這件事情你覺得民眾會覺得你們真的很重視食安嗎?當然這是我們驗出來的喔"},{"start":12611.428,"end":12614.21,"text":"所以中央跟地方為什麼要合作來做加強檢驗"},{"start":12636.361,"end":12649.587,"text":"這都是加強檢驗的結果。這是加強檢驗的結果。如果不做檢驗,那就會進來大家都不知道。所以你是你買是進去的啊。你說你檢驗出來了,但是還有一萬四千多,一萬四千多包流入市面呢?"},{"start":12655.249,"end":12676.191,"text":"那已經流入了不是嗎?已經被民眾吃下肚了不是嗎?所以我們再來講上一年度最大的事件,也就是這個進口雞蛋混沖國產雞蛋標示成國產蛋液。液氮的事情,所以同樣的事情因為你們蛋糊指手沒有開食安會報,當初每個部會各說各話互相打臉不是嗎?"},{"start":12676.972,"end":12691.807,"text":"不是這樣子!不是!那為什麼當初連標示日期都搞不清楚?當時的這些雞蛋變成了夜蛋會有標示成台灣產地確實是因為對於這個夜蛋標示的方式認知不一樣"},{"start":12692.307,"end":12694.528,"text":"同樣當時的臺中市也查獲未來彈,標示的生產日期還比實際日期還要長。"},{"start":12743.24,"end":12752.856,"text":"謝謝六位委員、韋翔的質詢也謝謝陳院長跟院會報告上午質詢到此為止我們下午2點半繼續開會進行質詢現在休息"},{"start":21589.844,"end":21594.626,"text":"報告院會。現在我們繼續開會。下面請吳委員私謠質詢。謝謝院長辛苦了。有請陳建源院長。請陳院長備詢。請衛福、環境、經濟三位部長一起。"},{"start":21619.106,"end":21647.095,"text":"請三位部長備詢。委員長,大家都辛苦了。不會,謝謝你。時安專報紛紛擾擾終於上路了。那這段時間社會也真的付出了非常大的有形跟無形的成本。到底這個事件誰是贏家誰是輸家。我想社會可以清楚的斷定"},{"start":21647.714,"end":21671.017,"text":"在這個事件當中沒有人是贏家所以我們無論如何要在這樣一個實案的個案事件上獲得正面的教訓也就是我們好好來檢視臺堂安心豬事件臺灣社會究竟學到了什麼我們如果可以從中在這個慘痛的經驗上獲得任何一點點讓我們更好的可能跟機會"},{"start":21672.398,"end":21690.006,"text":"我們就不是輸家所以首先進入我的質詢之前我要肯定我觀察了今天早上我們官員們的表現有為有守該辯護該大聲講我們就大聲講我非常肯定大仁哥今天也硬起來了"},{"start":21691.167,"end":21716.283,"text":"透過這個專案報告我們可以很清楚的讓國人看到是誰在講科學又是誰在搞政治都會一一的現行的臺灣的公民素養是非常的高的如果同樣的思堯如果有講錯的訊息我也請求行政部門要糾正我這就是國會應當有的彼此尊重我們來論理跟專業監督好下一頁"},{"start":21717.492,"end":21731.899,"text":"五四遙是這一屆的立法院第一位針對食安問題提出質詢的委員就在這個週二我利用我的施政報告的時間我就針對食安議題來提出質詢"},{"start":21733.786,"end":21748.226,"text":"如果關心隨時隨地我們有很多的方式可以監督行政部門當然我還是樂見今天的時安專報可以更進一步的來聚焦跟探討但同時吳思瑤也是立法院唯一"},{"start":21749.247,"end":21769.556,"text":"可以在一週內有兩次機會在這裡跟您討論食安的委員所以我很謝謝我們週二的討論讓我有很多的吸收讓我可以再進一步的回去思考反除作為一個專業的國會議員我如何在政策上可以提出更好的爭辯好下一頁我週二的時候說了食安就是心安"},{"start":21771.37,"end":21796.928,"text":"經過一再的驗證我們可以清楚的知道臺灣的食安的政府體制是沒有問題的現在的問題出在人民心慌慌因為這個事件受傷了所以我們無論如何要請全力來對於國人的心理建設要趕快補強起來好下一頁我再重新來說一次幾個關鍵數字有的update了"},{"start":21797.728,"end":21816.972,"text":"例如說到底是零檢出有幾盒數字不斷地在攀升今天最新的數字來到已經檢測921盒零檢出所以921比1從這個不斷攀升的數字我記得我禮拜二在這裡質詢的時候從788盒到877盒到今天921盒都代表我們台堂秉持他的專業負責他不斷地繼續檢驗"},{"start":21823.693,"end":21851.888,"text":"雖然我們可以斷定他是單一事件還是不放棄要釐清真相我看到我們臺堂的努力跟行政部門的背膀第二個呢關鍵數字我要再說一次兩年來西部特羅這個化學用藥只進口了789毫克少於1CC這麼微量的所以我們也可以驗證到他沒有流入到任何的"},{"start":21853.209,"end":21871.63,"text":"產銷畜牧的階段他就是在實驗室使用24個實驗室臺中市政府就是其中一個有進口的單位第三個關鍵數字我們可以精準溯源做到臺堂可以快速的下架274包"},{"start":21873.692,"end":21898.077,"text":"可以精準溯源去調查同一批生產的是2730核肉可以細緻到個位數這就告訴國人臺糖作為一個國家的品牌可以安心可以放心臺糖有能力有專業也負責任的無論如何要追查事件到最後一刻"},{"start":21898.997,"end":21917.224,"text":"所以這幾個關鍵數字都告訴我們,我們國家的食安體制是沒有問題的,國人可以安心啦,不要走路啦。下一頁,我有一個新的key number是今天的專報我看到的新數字,早上也在跟王美花部長在做進一步的確認。"},{"start":21918.587,"end":21936.791,"text":"就是臺堂是這個事件最大的受害者但是臺堂是國營事業啊他的損害就是全民買單啊高達財務損失不管有形無形的變動成本或是調動成本高達5253萬5253這關鍵數字美化部長沒有錯嘛"},{"start":21942.014,"end":21957.19,"text":"而臺堂在這個事件當中動員的人力高達741人次,包括臺堂自己的工作同仁,還包括這些帶送商。所以梅花部長,臺堂的損失怎麼替他平反,誰能來賠啊?"},{"start":21960.359,"end":21983.012,"text":"目前為止我們趕快把這個事件釐清,然後確認臺堂的豬肉是沒有問題。我想目前的要務我們是先做這件事情。很遺憾沒有人能賠,全民買單。但好歷代是臺堂,國營事業,老字號,金的條。如果這樣一個事件謠言發生在任何一個民間企業,哇,三天就倒了啦。"},{"start":21984.127,"end":21998.23,"text":"但是我們有一件事情可以做我覺得我辦公室的幕僚非常的可愛他們都是年輕人他們跟我說老闆臺堂受傷這麼深國家又沒有辦法給他們平反五千多萬開什麼玩笑我們可以做一件事"},{"start":21999.264,"end":22026.431,"text":"我們可以請消費者就有最大的力量我們一起臺糖停起來臺糖吃起來臺糖的產品買起來剛剛中午我跟我助理去了一趟全聯我們買了臺糖的燕麥片辦公室大家下午下午查一下我們買了臺糖的手工水餃晚上半夜我回家都是半夜可以自己泡自己煮"},{"start":22027.54,"end":22054.897,"text":"我們買了砂糖我喜歡吃甜我助理特別給我買這麼一大包我不知道吃多久還有台糖很多的罐頭我這裡是鳳梨罐頭其實它有各類的罐頭我們要呼籲所有的消費者挺台糖挺國家的好品牌這是我今天在這裡拋出來的第一個訊號我們可以在這個事件當中獲得一個正向的事情"},{"start":22055.868,"end":22058.729,"text":"除了有形的損失,其實無形的損失更是難以計算。"},{"start":22080.922,"end":22108.252,"text":"我很少數可以同意柯文哲的說法可是他這幾天說的話我是同意的他說這就是實驗室污染嘛這簡單的判斷嘛然後呢他也說簡單的事簡單解決他有很多事情要做不要浪費時間在這種無聊的事所以柯文哲主席講的話我也希望民眾黨的委員們要聽"},{"start":22109.977,"end":22134.364,"text":"我們希望政治上也要停損不要讓意識再空轉我們讓整個事件最起碼的讓我們的食安制度是如何的精進在國人面前被看到而作為政治工作者不要在這個事件上見縫擦針食安就是科學食安不要搞政治好下一頁回到專業問題我們的食安專家會議已經開完了"},{"start":22139.005,"end":22155.626,"text":"那養殖端沒問題徒宅端沒問題就是出在實驗室的檢測端有問題那您那天告訴我週二說大概兩週要結案可不可能更快好像事實釐清的"},{"start":22156.738,"end":22157.999,"text":"臺中市政府的責任怎麼來究責?"},{"start":22177.012,"end":22201.145,"text":"這個部分的話專家委員會應該對於實驗的步驟等等怎麼樣來做更好有一些看法另外一件事情也是大家蠻關心的就是他這個採到檢體到公布這個結果一共有18天的時間可是當他一檢出來有西布特羅的時候並沒有讓台堂有一個申請復驗的這樣的一個機制那所以呢才造成應該在"},{"start":22202.597,"end":22223.596,"text":"宣布以前應該要有一個復宴的機制可是這個機制並沒有進行就發布。謝謝院長的回覆所以說在事務上下一頁臺堂事件教會臺灣的是至少我們中央政府幫地方政府一把在體制上更完備食安不分中央地方不分政黨"},{"start":22224.637,"end":22250.716,"text":"我們協助地方政府來檢視而且精進他的檢驗作業這個您上週﹐這週二答應我要來做協助各個地方政府也不要只針對臺中市政府也許其他縣市政府六都還是有能量的也許有一些地方政府他更需要專業的軟硬體的協助協助地方政府來精進檢驗的作業的SOP包括軟硬體第二改善資訊公開的流程就您剛講的"},{"start":22252.057,"end":22279.097,"text":"那我要再進一步說因為這一次他的個案是就是檢驗到非常非常極限值0.001002所以我們也應當在這個對外公開的這個流程裡頭我個人認為是應當要有個分流的機制就是說當一檢測那是大量的污染的時候大量的擴散是系統性的研判的時候趕快公佈但是如果是極微量的"},{"start":22279.657,"end":22279.797,"text":"我覺得兩條路"},{"start":22295.435,"end":22320.341,"text":"台中市議會3月8號就要召開實案的專案會議就回到地方政府負起政治責任監督畢竟是在地方政府我個人對於邀請盧秀燕市長到立法院來備詢或報告我是個人持比較保留啦我認為還是基於地方自治但是另外一個部分也許監察院是一個可以協助釐清這整個事實很重要的一個調查機關"},{"start":22321.901,"end":22332.776,"text":"也許監委們聽到呼籲我沒有辦法指揮監委當然基於憤悸之間也許這會是一個協助進一步調查的必要的手段好下一頁"},{"start":22333.939,"end":22354.468,"text":"那這個馬英九任內跟蔡英文任內的食安大型事件我那天分享了7比27件在馬英九任內我們任內有兩件我們盡量做到零容忍但是呢再進步的這件事情是不容抹煞的下一頁"},{"start":22355.308,"end":22377.923,"text":"所以這幾年來建組織修法案增預算,我們8年投入92.5億來進行食安的提升,遠比馬英九在2016年把政權交到我們手上的時候是多了2.3倍。我呼籲朝野的立委繼續來監督,繼續來支持,做不好就給資源,做不好來修法。"},{"start":22378.763,"end":22405.278,"text":"而不是處處為難所以我要刻意再把這樣的資訊羅列出來最後一部分是我今天最在意的部分了下一頁實案在進步可是台灣的假訊息讓台灣大退步我很赫然的發現有一個北歐的專業權威的調查謠言獲重假訊息最嚴重的國家台灣連續10年是全球的冠軍"},{"start":22406.82,"end":22407.761,"text":"臺灣成為一個謠言貨眾事件No.1這對我們來講和其不堪。下一頁"},{"start":22415.543,"end":22438.576,"text":"而官方打假我這裡提出來的是食藥署在2015年成立一個食藥闢謠專區所以9年來有566件的假消息當中食品類有350件佔6成其他有醫療器材的假消息化妝品的假消息跟藥品的假消息非常的嚴重9年來有566件"},{"start":22441.858,"end":22468.544,"text":"六成是食安所以就我們需要重建全民的辨識食安假訊息的全民教育需要全面來啟動下一頁民間的臺灣事實查核中心這個民間機構NGO他們也具體的在2022年提出小心有毒的食安假訊息他們提出了兩個樣態食安假訊息的樣態一就是救蚊蟲草"},{"start":22469.304,"end":22498.024,"text":"把過去發生的事來說成是今年新發的事件然後它有照片有圖片然後就引起全民的恐慌另外一種樣態是去脈絡化的再製加蔥加料然後去頭去尾把簡單來講就是重製了一個假消息所以我們全民的食安教育全民的打假怎麼來完備呢我們來到我的最後倒數第二頁"},{"start":22499.059,"end":22524.539,"text":"院長,我們曾經在2019年修了9個法,不夠。我們針對至少今天這個主題食品安全衛生管理法46條之一,針對散佈食品安全謠言或不實訊期只能夠罰台幣100萬。今天這個案子台堂是賠了5000多萬。重修吧,這個部分應當可以做吧。即刻啟動。然後最後一頁,我再一次來說,"},{"start":22525.959,"end":22533.432,"text":"給社會的一堂課快速結案責任歸屬協助地方政府精進食安打假要升級還有"},{"start":22579.974,"end":22589.855,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":22604.738,"end":22609.839,"text":"好,謝謝吳委員施要的質詢。接下來我們請登記第7號徐委員巧欣。徐委員恭喜你,來,總政理委。"},{"start":22627.964,"end":22649.931,"text":"院長你在過年的時候有告訴大家說你過去一年做錯很多事我現在就要來問問看你到底知不知道自己做錯什麼反省了沒有首先我們農業部去告民眾說他們綠雞蛋假消息你還跳出來說這是一則假消息結果被法院打臉了你有錯嗎"},{"start":22650.971,"end":22672.906,"text":"法院的判斷你自己看看內容委員你看看那個法院的內容宣判的內容你講的不是這樣喔你看看法院宣判的內容他只是說他沒有辦法查證你那個不要扭曲法院的判斷不要扭曲法院的判斷"},{"start":22677.61,"end":22679.972,"text":"台灣接了詐騙訊息96%的民眾都收到過去年被詐騙79億政府有錯嗎?院長"},{"start":22697.357,"end":22705.179,"text":"有錯沒有這麼簡單的問題嗎?有錯沒有,我是問你覺得有沒有錯以後我會慢慢問你要怎麼解決,你有沒有錯?政府有沒有錯?有錯沒有回答不出來我反駁他簡直關心說成是飛彈你在立法院裡面說台灣被飛彈攻擊了,你有沒有錯?"},{"start":22721.055,"end":22721.435,"text":"委員這一個你要有證據喔"},{"start":22739.901,"end":22759.401,"text":"這個昨天在我們的檢察官講的他沒有沒有證實沒有證實是碰撞防護你這個要負責任你要負責任的講法你這個要負責任喔這是你講的喔碰撞防護是你講的這是檢察官沒有這樣說是你自己的心證喔"},{"start":22760.402,"end":22762.984,"text":"你也覺得沒有錯,百分之百知道的"},{"start":22781.226,"end":22795.738,"text":"院長你剛在對行的時候說要給臺堂申復期要晚15天公佈我問喔這個案子如果晚15天公佈除了讓國人晚15天知道事實真相以外會不會驗出希伯特羅我只談這個案子"},{"start":22796.613,"end":22819.253,"text":"好,這個案子我可以跟你講,如果檢查出來﹖會不會嗎?只有15分鐘的時間而已,為什麼要浪費呢?中央有沒有驗出希伏特羅?這個案子晚15天後部會不會驗出希伏特羅?而且按照標準作業流程,當你檢查出來有這個希伏特羅的時候,應該在15天內讓台堂有申請復驗。"},{"start":22820.774,"end":22834.58,"text":"但是他沒有照標準作業流程來做而且他驗出來的量是0.00的ppm是相當的低極度的低那一塊肉才有其他沒有那一塊肉才有驗出來好不好"},{"start":22845.685,"end":22859.751,"text":"你剛剛說台中的實驗室污染喔,你說台中的實驗室污染是刪去法,你是在參加百萬小學堂嗎?若這個邏輯也沒有按照科學證據,那我們談什麼?談憑你個人的想法。所以你剛剛說你認為台中實驗室是"},{"start":22868.167,"end":22870.309,"text":"當然有,但是呢現在目前我們如果按照這個情況下來來"},{"start":22897.751,"end":22909.618,"text":"你們呢,驗出西伯特羅的批次豬肉裡面百分之多少已經賣掉了?賣掉的我不清楚,但是整個...不清楚!不清楚你說你都驗了!"},{"start":22912.877,"end":22917.439,"text":"所有的豬齁他是吃同一批飼料的這個跟3%沒有關係齁最主要是他同一批的肉是用同樣的飼料"},{"start":22933.985,"end":22940.031,"text":"我問你的是驗了百分之多少?國人有知道的權利百分之多少?百分之多少嗎?百分之多少?我想問百分之多少啊?我想知道啊"},{"start":22952.743,"end":22976.85,"text":"委員你講的是外行化所有的食安的檢查就是用同批的樣品來檢查你現在講的是外行化食安不是這樣檢查的你們報告裡面有寫幾包這個批字有幾包報告裡面寫的喔嘿你報告寫的欸你看啊你報告寫的你們不知道答案是幾包啊"},{"start":22977.458,"end":22988.948,"text":"翻譯一下嘛,現在翻好不好,我給你一點時間,我還有9分鐘。翻譯一下你們裡面寫這個批詞有幾包。我跟你講過,所有的檢驗,有36包被檢查。 不,那個批詞裡面有2730包是你專案報告的數字。"},{"start":22996.054,"end":23018.035,"text":"兩千七百三十包是所有的產品我剛剛問你這個問題嘛你為什麼不翻翻報告你裡面自己寫的我問請問你們驗了幾包你這樣講我能回答驗了幾包我們兩千七百三十包裡面驗了幾包我們同一批十七包不知道同一批十七包臺堂送了三十六件你們裡面寫的請問他三十六件裡面是幾包三十六"},{"start":23021.28,"end":23025.942,"text":"我跟委員說明一下齁整個食安的一個檢測的部分它不是用百分比的部分因為百分比是用抽檢的部分"},{"start":23046.609,"end":23072.029,"text":"對,就是因為他租是同一批飼養,用同樣的飼料,所以你如果說他有檢測的時候,那請問驗出第二包、第三包、第四包的話,請問可以算?任何一包,那現在驗出了沒有?我們現在除了那一塊肉以外,那一塊肉以外。委員,你這樣講我們沒有辦法討論啦。你不按照工學的推論,你不按照邏輯推論,"},{"start":23074.531,"end":23079.174,"text":"我問你我們食藥署農業部有沒有曾經驗出一包任何的有毒素的違法的但第二包以後都沒驗出來就選擇不公佈的經驗"},{"start":23095.117,"end":23123.778,"text":"我跟委員說明喔,如果說我驗出一包以後,我會馬上針對同一批同品下來的產品去復驗。對,到目前為止都沒有。我們的SOP現在是這樣對不對?SOP很簡單嘛,就是說你去採樣,採樣來了以後,如果你發現他是有驗出,就應該讓廠商在15天內要申請復驗。台中市政府沒有做。第二件事情,還沒有講完,第二件事情,"},{"start":23124.158,"end":23142.747,"text":"他檢驗出來了以後如果很低的濃度應該要再去採其他的樣本來做檢驗。請問新北市跟雲林市有等待廠商復驗15天嗎?他驗出來以後馬上新北市政府就去查了他的上游。"},{"start":23147.027,"end":23162.277,"text":"還是你不知道?我們剛剛去查核過了。所以蘇丹隔住可以不用15天,但是溯源需要15天?不是,他們有溯源。這一件事情很重要,一個有溯源,一個沒有溯源。但他不是糾結在15天嗎?那現在15天去哪裡了?"},{"start":23163.177,"end":23163.577,"text":"實案法第5條裏面寫什麼?"},{"start":23182.779,"end":23185.461,"text":"所以他寫得很清楚,申請復驗是廠商的權利,臺中市政府有讓臺堂來申請復驗"},{"start":23207.256,"end":23218.149,"text":"但是什麼時候要公佈是政府應該按照食安法第5條就要公佈的。台中市政府是不是食藥署的認證所單位。我們食藥署都認可這個台中食鹽署。"},{"start":23223.576,"end":23233.901,"text":"臺中市的食安處是野雞單位嗎?這個實驗室我們食藥署有沒有給認證?有嗎?沒有,你們有沒有給實驗?現在驗出來的這個臺中食安處你們有沒有給他認證通過?他們是不是一個合格的實驗室?他認證是一回事可是每一個時間都要加以認證我只問你他有沒有被食藥署認證是一個合格的實驗室?"},{"start":23246.568,"end":23250.289,"text":"是還是不是?是還是不是?我先問你這個問題。那他是還不是的?那他是還不是的?我先問你這個問題。我先問你這個問題。你怎麼知道後面要問你什麼呢?他是不是一個合格的實驗室啊?"},{"start":23266.194,"end":23288.82,"text":"曾經被認為是已經不被認為了是嗎曾經是現在曾經是的意思就是現在已經不是了所以你們取消台中市政府的這個實案單位的認證了是嗎你這樣講你的邏輯就是如此啊如果你認為實驗室有污染的話你要撤掉他的認證嗎認證撤掉了沒有什麼時候要啟動撤掉的這個程序以及是否要請檢調來調查台中的這個實驗室"},{"start":23295.54,"end":23310.226,"text":"委員,我們是不是有請專家委員會去調查?那調查出來以後,在談判要不要認真呢?你農業不是直接去提告民眾,所以你們應該要提告台中市的這個實業市,會不會提告?"},{"start":23312.847,"end":23313.408,"text":"請問告不告台中實驗室?告或不告?"},{"start":23332.353,"end":23360.348,"text":"這個委員的問題是很奇怪臺中市政府對於他檢驗出來的這個西部特樓發現只有他一塊應該是臺中市政府要去負責啊所以第一方就是臺中市政府要負責但是臺中市政府也請中央來協助所以我們才有組織專家委員會來幫忙嘛那有人說呢這個事件是政治牽面人你同意嗎他們說臺中市政府下毒啊"},{"start":23362.59,"end":23371.194,"text":"我認為講簽名人這件事情是危言聳聽。那這樣子的造謠有沒有打算提告社會法?但是我們馬上就澄清,如果是簽名人下的絕對不是那個濃度。"},{"start":23384.178,"end":23398.437,"text":"但是我們不判斷這是缺面人的啊我們很簡單的食安的特色委員你不懂嗎委員你不曉得缺面人的下午情況跟這個情形是完全不一樣所以你現在是"},{"start":23401.621,"end":23418.96,"text":"所以不提告簽名人的因為我已經幫你準備好了我知道你們很愛告人我幫你準備好了一批名單上面就是有曾經說過現在有政治簽名人在吐豬肉下毒害很多民眾不敢買豬肉的名單你們只要一聲令下我馬上提供資料給你讓你去告他們"},{"start":23419.781,"end":23438.553,"text":"委員你這樣做沒有辦法增進臺灣食安的繼續的經濟那怎麼樣可以你只是在延遲公開就可以增加我們臺灣的食安延遲食安延出一包然後不要公佈就可以捧棒增加我們臺灣的食安但是如果驗到了很緊張趕快公佈出來就是在讓我們的食安出問題我再問你這是民進黨的文宣他寫說臺中市政府採購西部特羅"},{"start":23447.239,"end":23457.861,"text":"流向去哪裡說清楚暗示因為採購西部特羅的關係所以你們都有問題各縣市政府採購西部特羅院長不可以嗎?"},{"start":23458.766,"end":23478.524,"text":"可以啊,但是就在實驗室裡面使用。因為現在講到真正的重點,因為西部特羅只有在實驗室裡面,所以所有的飼養的過程都不會有西部特羅的出現。那現在只有一塊肉在一個實驗室檢驗出來,請問這個西部特羅從哪裡來?"},{"start":23481.527,"end":23482.247,"text":"你的邏輯呢?"},{"start":23482.247,"end":23482.787,"text":"你的邏輯呢?"},{"start":23482.787,"end":23483.227,"text":"你的邏輯呢?"},{"start":23483.227,"end":23485.628,"text":"食藥署有買啊!"},{"start":23485.628,"end":23487.128,"text":"食藥署沒檢驗出來啊!"},{"start":23487.128,"end":23489.269,"text":"食藥署沒檢驗出來啊!"},{"start":23489.269,"end":23499.131,"text":"所以有史布特羅的實驗室就只有一塊肉檢驗出來,這一塊肉就是在台東市政府的實驗室啦!"},{"start":23499.131,"end":23501.271,"text":"他就是這個豬肉下毒的人!"},{"start":23501.271,"end":23502.451,"text":"這個是造謠吧?"},{"start":23502.451,"end":23503.632,"text":"這是抹黑吧?"},{"start":23503.632,"end":23505.452,"text":"完全不是啊!"},{"start":23505.452,"end":23505.732,"text":"確實是!"},{"start":23505.732,"end":23509.393,"text":"請問文獻的院長認不認為這一張圖卡是在造謠在抹黑啊?"},{"start":23509.853,"end":23534.151,"text":"我是認為臺州市政府確實有西部特隆,而臺州市政府檢驗的那一塊肉也有西部特隆,也只有那一塊肉有,這是事實。違量元素的違量驗出的話以後不用公布你點頭,所以你要修法嗎?他說違量的話可以不用公布,你再點頭,你說我請問未來修法的方向是不是如果驗出"},{"start":23550.903,"end":23553.206,"text":"各位委員同仁"},{"start":23559.721,"end":23582.537,"text":"好各位委員同仁跟大家報告兩個重點第一個重點請尊重諮詢委員第二個重點我們今天會專案報告是用疾問疾答的方式進行由委員跟官員共同用使用詢答時間委員諮詢再由官員就諮詢的範圍答覆"},{"start":23584.238,"end":23611.768,"text":"因此委員跟官員之間基於互相尊重,共同遵守此項規定。好不好,非常謝謝徐委員巧心,也謝謝陳院長,也謝謝官員。接下來我們請中委員嘉賓特別跟院會報告一下今天是中嘉賓委員的生日。所有的委員跟官員我們幫他用掌聲來祝賀他好不好,生日快樂。"},{"start":23613.669,"end":23614.089,"text":"請中委員嘉賓質詢。"},{"start":23630.443,"end":23654.752,"text":"我們請今天的壽星徐嘉斌委員,啊請仔細,中嘉斌委員,對不起主席、外場的委員先進、內協的政府機關所長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生有請院長跟兩位部長,學部長跟陳部長拿兩位部長學部長跟陳部長好的,再次請陳院長跟兩位部長備詢眾委員好院長好兩位部長好"},{"start":23659.964,"end":23685.479,"text":"請問院長部長你們過去有沒有參加政論節目的現場有沒有沒有沒有我是常參加啦我倒覺得剛剛似乎委員的詢答好像是在政論節目的現場只是通常在那個時候作為節目主持人也就是現在的院長的位置的人會出來制止啊那覺得很遺憾的齁剛剛那樣的討論無助於事實的澄清"},{"start":23686.109,"end":23713.023,"text":"而且還錯誤引用在場委員之前的發言我覺得這也不足取啊所以我鄭重的請院長未來可以陳情你當發言陷入這樣的情況的時候可以適時的來維持一下秩序可以嗎?謝謝院長好那我們就開始今天的質詢這個天選之樓西部特樓的事件那請問一下一片肉同一個檢體檢驗超過20次數值都不一樣那這合常理嗎?院長您是科學家"},{"start":23714.228,"end":23731.256,"text":"那您覺得通常這種情況之下,正規的實驗室他會怎麼去處理這樣的檢驗結果?正規的實驗室應該有兩個部分。第一個呢,如果這一片座之外呢,還有其他同一批的座應該要來做檢驗。第二個呢,他也可以請求另外的這個專業的這個檢驗機構呢,再協助他來了解為什麼他的這個數值會不一致。"},{"start":23736.641,"end":23759.702,"text":"是因為我也念過國中也念過高中雖然我念的是文組但是我們做實驗課的時候也是有這樣的要求當你做出來實驗數值跟人家不一樣的時候那可以請別人再照方的操作一次看會不會做出這樣的結果對不對好那請問一下往下一頁齁那麼接下來呢請問陳部長齁同批的肉品920件零檢出你們是用什麼樣的標準去找這920件檢體"},{"start":23761.764,"end":23776.866,"text":"同一隻豬,同一批豬,還是同一批梅花肉,還是同一個台堂的養豬場,你們是怎麼做的?我想跟委員說明,大概分兩個部分。第一個部分就是,我們是針對台東市政府所公布的這一批"},{"start":23778.568,"end":23802.26,"text":"我們馬上去追回溯到同一批同品項的這些豬肉那有掌握到的這些豬肉部分總共有17包在前面兩天17包檢驗中沒有然後第二個部分就是溯源到南京的養豬場那養豬場的部分我們會針對同一批生產的這些豬肉跟他的飼料連飼料都驗了"},{"start":23805.422,"end":23819.931,"text":"如果有可能的話那有可能會在飼料裡面添加所以我們針對飼料也驗結果也是沒有的這920件驗的結果同一批肉品的批號的肉品加工的肉品對肉品來的同一批豬"},{"start":23822.473,"end":23833.58,"text":"對,是不同批的豬養豬場對,同一批養豬場也去抽其他的豬這批養豬場的飼料包括庫存的飼料都拿出來抽是不是?"},{"start":23833.58,"end":23849.371,"text":"是所以那經過這樣整變的時候你是不是覺得可以排除飼料添加的可能?以目前來講齁我們所檢測的這些數據的結果都沒檢出那我們初步是排除說他在臺堂的南境的飼料那個養豬場排除飼料添加的問題對,好"},{"start":23850.712,"end":23871.187,"text":"那不是台湯的養豬場有沒有做檢測?我們也有,我們在肉餅市場也檢測了。目前可不可以說經過你們檢測的基本上並沒有豬農在飼料添加,目前你們檢測的?對,目前我們檢測的包括肉餅市場跟台湯的市場都沒有。那這總共累積1567件都沒有檢出瘦肉精?"},{"start":23871.769,"end":23892.577,"text":"那是不是可以還豬農清白因為我們屏東是養豬大縣豬農很care這個事情你覺得有這樣的有沒有辦法還豬農清白我覺得以我們現在的數據去可以推斷說我們現在目前國產豬的豬肉的飼養都沒有使用這個西部特羅所以我可以說一個簡單的決定就還豬農清白接下來如果不是豬農的問題"},{"start":23893.857,"end":23903.409,"text":"那從生產再賣出的零檢出、養豬場、屠宰分莊、信工、賣場、台糖的賣場或是那一個國軍的承銷商的陳列品"},{"start":23904.909,"end":23907.17,"text":"對,因為我們現在的數據顯示臺糖的肉品是我想是絕對沒問題的。"},{"start":23926.403,"end":23953.767,"text":"好,所以臺黨也是清白的,中壇也是清白的,那請問院長那關於你一個科學家的結果有一位民眾黨的主席說啊這個沒人知道這是實驗室污染你覺得他這話可信嗎?我想經過剛才的這樣的一個科學的論證確實就只有臺中市政府的實驗室的一塊肉有那所以他判斷是實驗室污染的可能性但是我個人是覺得說"},{"start":23954.931,"end":23969.642,"text":"到目前為止因為他買到這個檢體到檢驗這個階段已經很長現在要收集這個真正的事證已經有困難但是我們不能夠排除有實驗室污染的可能性所以實驗室污染現在恐怕也很難證實雖然不能證實但是有可能"},{"start":23973.044,"end":23997.957,"text":"但是呢臺中市衛生局說這是非科學的說法但是有人不是說科學的說法有人是說從動機論就跑出了剛剛前面委員提到的所謂的政治簽面人所謂的政治簽門表示他不是簽面人啊簽面人是為了真的下毒要去毒死人去勒索對不對那顯然的西普特羅在這樣的含量是毒不死人的他的目的大概也不是透過下毒來恐嚇食品工廠"},{"start":23998.757,"end":24014.005,"text":"他是要製造其他的目的,那有人說這樣是政治牽連,換言之這個驗出來的希伏特羅如果不是實驗室污染,不是被動地被附著到這個殘藥,是有人刻意地放進去的,你覺得有沒有這個可能?"},{"start":24014.892,"end":24036.987,"text":"我想在實驗室的同仁在做實驗的時候大概不會是實驗室的人做的有沒有對如果不是實驗室人做的那有沒有可能是在實驗室送到實驗室之前在賣場的檢體上有人放有沒有這個可能一點點千萬分之一可能有沒有這個可能這個可能要需要看這個賣場的錄影帶的檢體很好這就是我的重點了"},{"start":24037.788,"end":24049.72,"text":"至早在目前為止公務機關在沒有查明這個情況之下就強制商品下架是不是有產生對於該商品公司一個國家賠償法的賠償責任的問題"},{"start":24053.367,"end":24080.529,"text":"這一件事情確實是造成了臺堂很大的損失。損失多少你知道嗎?五千三百多萬。我們看一下,臺堂說損失了多少?損失了將超過千萬。那你覺得如果真的是成立國家賠償的要件,的確是公務人員有心或無心的疏失或犯錯,那是不是臺堂有可能可以提起國家賠償,要求相關的公務機關負責,有沒有這個可能性?這個我們來...有沒有?"},{"start":24081.9,"end":24104.299,"text":"確實他們有損失這是事實不過現在最重要的那假如證明是公務人員的疏失或過失那可以提出國賠嗎?對那如果確實是有公務人員的疏失的話那台堂至少他可以證明他的損失那請問這些日子以來本月2號台中市總記者會之前農業部長我們毛豬每公斤的價格是93塊5交易投訴是2"},{"start":24108.563,"end":24117.609,"text":"兩萬七千頭。結果開了記者會之後呢價格掉到八十四塊錢。教育投數呢降到了兩萬二。請問你認為豬農或養豬產業有沒有損失?"},{"start":24120.407,"end":24144.916,"text":"我想整個的事件一開始是引起了一些我看消費者對於我們國產豬肉的疑慮的部分那在過年前的部分我們現在的平均的批發價大概是90.8元還維持一定但是在過年後以後開始有一些降低那這個降低的部分一部分的因素是大家的一個恐慌那另外一個部分是因為過年後的一個消費的一個習性的疲弱"},{"start":24145.436,"end":24145.977,"text":"我們來看一下,那就問題來了。"},{"start":24168.715,"end":24169.776,"text":"豬農是完全沒有舉證的能力"},{"start":24193.795,"end":24213.947,"text":"那如果後來證明既不是台糖的問題是某公務機關的錯台糖可以跟負責的人提出國賠那豬農受到影響他沒有能力去舉證請問豬農的損失誰來賠我想豬農的損失他其實最在意的就是說他的國產豬肉不要讓消費者失去信心我覺得這一點一定要重要那是未來"},{"start":24215.848,"end":24231.168,"text":"那如果過去農業部會不會承諾可以來協助豬農去舉證跟界定他們的損失就他們過去這段時間因為這個烏龍事件所造成損害幫豬農來協助未來如果他們採取司法途徑他們至少跟台糖公司一樣可以去舉證"},{"start":24232.449,"end":24257.234,"text":"外部客觀的一個損失農業部可不可以來協助如果他們請求對我想我們會跟我們的養豬業者去研議好相關的一個承諾會幫助他們嗎對我們會幫助如果養豬協會提出來農業部願意協助他們來定損跟舉證嗎後續如果說我們的檢查是的確是因為這個事件是一個很特殊的因果關係有法院來判定啦但是舉證舉證跟定損農業部願意來協助嗎我們會來協助很好"},{"start":24261.315,"end":24283.785,"text":"接下來我要請衛福部長其實這件事情呢我不敢說他是政治牽面人但是賣場陳列的生鮮食材你有沒有去過便利超商買過茶葉蛋有有嘛部長你有吃過嘛你知道你前一個買茶葉蛋的人是什麼人不知道你知道你後面一個買茶葉蛋的人是什麼人不知道那如果前面一個人的手上很髒東西掉到茶葉蛋你去買茶葉蛋你會不會擔心"},{"start":24287.988,"end":24309.175,"text":"當然有這種可能嘛請問一下你覺得目前在賣場如果包裝好的完整封存的食品過去都曾經被發生過真正的切面能下毒的情況那現在不是包裝完好的食品像茶葉蛋關東煮開架式的讓消費者不定特定的要有自由取用有沒有可能產生在賣場污染的情況"},{"start":24310.315,"end":24331.886,"text":"如果開架的話有可能有可能部長您不太舒服了我就問院長好了那危害控管沒有強制賣場導入你看看我們從原料的生產到加工製造都有強制導入HACCP一共有提供了在食品安全衛生法管理法第8條第二項有超過的有10類"},{"start":24333.027,"end":24361.676,"text":"包括餐廳業者他的人員要定時接受健康檢查他們要遵守一定的衛生規範對不對這是我們的法規有規定的那是指專門處理顧客飲食的專業人員特定人員但是在賣場前面的顧客你有辦法要求他洗過手再去夾茶葉蛋嗎沒有,如果是顧客可能沒有辦法嘛對不對所以我們來看一看那是不是從這次事件的教訓如果有人"},{"start":24362.945,"end":24377.996,"text":"萬一像簽名人那模仿因為我們台灣的賣場很多熟食是公開隨意顧客取用的只要有一個地方發生問題是不是造成了所有的恐慌對不對簽名人當時在日本就是這樣子"},{"start":24378.576,"end":24381.217,"text":"我覺得這個部分我們可以再來監控加強也就是說我要提醒一下部長跟院長"},{"start":24403.646,"end":24412.545,"text":"今天這個事情已經證明可以大概可以證明說不是豬農在飼料上違法添加也幾乎可以證明食品加工廠跟賣場"},{"start":24414.298,"end":24435.092,"text":"市民廠本身他並沒有在這個過程中去污染那有一個可能就是實驗室自己購買的藥品在檢查過程中可能是無意中的污染但是也很難去查個水落石出但是也有人說有可能是在開放式的貨架上特定的產品被下藥我不要說是下毒"},{"start":24435.572,"end":24438.434,"text":"我想在賣場裡面特別是開架式的像這樣open的那個食物的販賣確實是要加強來管理那這個部分我們可能需要"},{"start":24465.216,"end":24467.337,"text":"去年發生毒莓果事件的時候我就要求衛福部"},{"start":24488.595,"end":24506.829,"text":"我說對於這些大型的賣場因為他們銷量特別大他們說他們的進口之前都交給檢驗室檢查過了或者說他們信賴出口的時候對方的官方跟我方的官方的抽驗他自己進入賣場後沒有再去做一些必要的化驗他只有說自主管理部長是不是這樣"},{"start":24508.342,"end":24522.937,"text":"那你認為現在經過這個事件之後對於這些銷量特別大的大型賣場是不是要刻意他隨時去他的賣場做一些不是自主而是被強制要求要去做必要的巡檢防止他的賣場他的商品被污染被破壞"},{"start":24523.678,"end":24525.219,"text":"這還是會有一點困難那要不要去研擬?可以,院長他承諾了你覺得什麼時候可以做?"},{"start":24550.626,"end":24551.787,"text":"謝謝總委員嘉賓我們接下來登記第9號我們謝委員榮屆質詢"},{"start":24587.168,"end":24602.156,"text":"陳議長陳議長陳院長有請陳院長備詢小議員總議感謝你你要聽台語還是國語都可以你台語講得比較好,我沒理你比較好沒什麼,你講得做得比較好我覺得稍微有這個"},{"start":24617.079,"end":24618.539,"text":"對,我知道委員你很重視"},{"start":24635.916,"end":24655.448,"text":"我看你如果跟民進黨的議員這樣一拳一拳,國民黨的委員站在你面前問兩句,你就放下了就要看問你有道理沒道理嘛,我講道理啦,我講道理,要講道理小心走不前,不然你就要講你外行但是他講的確確實實是外行啦來我問你,這地震嚴重出問題嘛"},{"start":24664.025,"end":24664.965,"text":"第一吃什麼治療第一吃什麼治療"},{"start":24694.824,"end":24694.984,"text":"天價物是什麼?"},{"start":24713.244,"end":24739.254,"text":"施料的添加物包括它的一些促進生長的合法的這些使用的這些添加物包括一些微量元素。穀粉啊、魚粉啊這種。那裡有魚粉、有穀粉。有,那裡有魚粉。添加物。豬用了乙型授體素。是什麼時候吃?豬沒有。這個你在內行喔。對。豬要吃整粒啦。"},{"start":24740.523,"end":24762.031,"text":"第一大家平均六個月左右啦六個月左右就是到六個月大概平均100到120公斤的輪延的出租然後出席到八月要七個月差不多要六個月要六個月對我知道出席之後要做有往事"},{"start":24770.991,"end":24794.27,"text":"以行授體數是什麼時候添加?以行授體數的時候是豬已經到了快速成長期以後,他在換肉率最高的時候,過去在美國我們得到的資訊因為台灣本身沒有在用以行授體數,但是在國外的時候都是在換肉率最快的時候。所以有萊克多巴胺有授肉精的豬肉基本上是不是身分比較小?"},{"start":24795.794,"end":24797.095,"text":"我跟你說齁,大概在最後一個月到40天,那...也沒有換肉啦。"},{"start":24826.22,"end":24829.382,"text":"委員長你說排除法所以不排除"},{"start":24858.137,"end":24858.537,"text":"臺中市檢驗實驗室"},{"start":24888.442,"end":24899.245,"text":"沒有受到汙染。我這樣說會不會受到汙染?我感覺這是你自己的說法啦。這很簡單啊。你們說的規定就說什麼?治療不會有汙染,市場不會有汙染,所以都在有汙染,所以應該就是實驗室汙染。你用這樣擺脫,我告訴你嘛。"},{"start":24916.05,"end":24924.294,"text":"埃中的實驗室他就同時採集了40張碼,不是同一批檢驗,不是同一批檢驗,不是同一批檢驗,不是同一批檢驗,不是同一批檢驗,不是同一批檢驗"},{"start":24939.26,"end":24941.242,"text":"師傅透露就是只有在實驗室污染"},{"start":24965.401,"end":24965.421,"text":"對阿!"},{"start":24977.333,"end":24993.308,"text":"臨時提案的你有沒有人?我告訴你臺灣臨時提案的東西奇奇怪怪的大家也有?沒有人臨時提案四部特樓啦。你知道四部特樓進口多少?四部特樓跟進口789迷你咕咾是多少?連一公克都沒有喔!一公克都沒有啊!平均二十四個時間尺!請問每一個時間尺有多少?"},{"start":25001.536,"end":25026.888,"text":"不能合成 不准換賣 不准使用 不准合成 不准合成 表示沒有人合成嘛我向委員報告齁 因為西部退羅在其他的國家也是沒有人在用的沒有人在用的話就不可能去做走私 我們自己來用沒有人在用 現在嚇壞了 你看我整個都要退後不講話 不要這樣啦沒有 真的是 主要是沒在用我也是用很久了還要跟你討論啊 是啊 對不對所以"},{"start":25033.355,"end":25055.385,"text":"我跟您講今天沒有人要任何人負責,討告未了。第一個,臺中室宴出包括本黨所有的委員,沒有一個叫什麼人要下台,沒有。我沒有要叫人下台,我沒有要叫人下台。整個臺黨好棒棒,臺黨好棒棒。"},{"start":25060.642,"end":25076.291,"text":"其實你們可以說什麼?你們可以說因為民眾對台糖信賴所以租價拍賣還有92塊、93塊對不對?可以這樣說的嗎?我只是在說本身的地貿在幾年前的年齡是90點多再來,你就是說因為你們還有補充說因為鄉親對台糖信賴嘛,好來現在落到幾塊你知不知道?"},{"start":25088.804,"end":25107.451,"text":"八十六點四平均這幾天幾年多?這兩天有到八十二月你知不知道?有到八十三現在算這兩天大洶洶對台湯不信賴就對了沒有這兩天落去是年節之後的買氣下降在打水的時候當然有時候每次委員講就沒講你對他們對他們沒關係我剛才也是這樣講喔?我剛才有在跟你們聽啦喔 你看"},{"start":25117.895,"end":25126.68,"text":"阿放大一點,右上角這個齁,這張圖案是這樣齁,這張圖案是7個月以後,2023年的6月7日屠宰。 幾年喔?幾年的六月七一台的。 因為這台齁,跟我們蔡奇亞的溫體珠不一樣,那溫體珠呢,它的價格比較好。"},{"start":25144.909,"end":25146.429,"text":"我一再回來我血本無歸嘛"},{"start":25175.151,"end":25203.733,"text":"所以他75天也認了也要被拍嘛。所以一般這兩棟屠宰場大概會比這個牌價,第一個兩塊錢,你體型差一點,皮啦,我們在吃的三層,皮差一點,我都收啦,因為他可以加工。這塊是梅花肉,照你說是蠻不錯吃的啦。"},{"start":25204.721,"end":25234.022,"text":"可是6月7號屠宰他6月8號大分切就是說比較好切啦因為機械切的不是人工切的他把它動到要結冰大概動到一度或零度啦再分切大塊結果他出品出品出品"},{"start":25235.242,"end":25238.666,"text":"那你怎麼能保證這6個月裡面沒有被汙染?"},{"start":25249.974,"end":25276.894,"text":"委員請問西部特樓在什麼地方?就是在實驗室啊。實驗室以外就沒有西部特樓,那要怎麼去污染?這是很簡單的理論嘛。污染物就是說污染物在哪裡?污染才有可能。如果檢測官像你這樣,破案一天破沒兩件。假如今天是出了人命,檢察官稱辦以後就不是這種態度。我請問你,你認為我請問你?"},{"start":25280.097,"end":25300.135,"text":"台中市檢驗這個賣場他從檢驗那一天推算到上架這幾天我請問你們的單位有沒有任何一個單位去調錄影帶調那個賣場的錄影帶去審視說這一批肉過程這幾天上架以後都沒有被人家污染到"},{"start":25301.124,"end":25319.548,"text":"我認為這個整批肉都是同一個飼養場同一個飼料養的同一群的豬所以我們就會有叫做同批嘛所以同批我們有回收檢驗啊我檢驗都沒有啊你如果說有所有這裡吃一倍的東西都一定有質量性啊"},{"start":25326.172,"end":25330.505,"text":"在這個冰櫃拿出來檢驗的嘛齁,他抽檢嘛對不對,抽檢一二嘛,一二而已啊"},{"start":25335.636,"end":25359.687,"text":"我現在要跟你講就是說,你是不是應該去審視這個過程,他上架第三天被抽檢,這三天裡面你有去找那間六年大,看這個病床有用污染到嗎?有啦你有去找嗎?有啦,有抓啊有人當手嗎?沒看到啊基本上沒有嘛,那這樣為什麼你,所以因為這樣你大膽斷定"},{"start":25362.848,"end":25373.031,"text":"實驗室污染所以說委員,我講一下可以嗎?你現在設下來的工一棵是2900多嘛,你講的嘛,裡面喔,特地都沒有喔,只有存一個屋,那個去賣的時候沒什麼問題喔,你賣到時間不適宜喔,所以變成屋,公務人員是這樣嘛,這是屬實"},{"start":25389.772,"end":25396.059,"text":"臺灣規定臨檢出嘛是啊我走到的時候我敢可以不要發布你告訴我"},{"start":25396.867,"end":25406.013,"text":"當然不行,但是我發佈嘛,那現在一樣嘛,那辣椒現在蘇東風染到這幾個縣市發佈不算都有事。你的檢驗要有正確嘛,我剛才講過就是說當我們檢驗實在極低量的時候,要重複檢驗嘛。幾年了齁,你都算開26年。"},{"start":25419.121,"end":25434.923,"text":"對。對。對。對。"},{"start":25435.003,"end":25449.672,"text":"每一個官司人體檢出來,我都很信任他,但是每一個官司檢出來,都已經檢出,都沒有檢出,只有自己檢出而已啦。我要跟你講的就是,本來自己檢去啦,現在只有自己檢出啦。你以為我們都嚴肅面對嗎?對喔,我們都很嚴肅面對。今天你第一輪,這幾天你每天打電話說什麼,打不來,我告訴你今天全八十二三啦。"},{"start":25466.513,"end":25491.859,"text":"他們的身分要差不多80塊。成本啦齁。這個稍微、稍微處理就要得了解了。所以說那消息是不是要很謹慎的來檢查、很仔細的來公佈。不必做沒有必要的指控嘛。對阿但是,很簡單,就是這樣會不會造成不必要的恐慌,不會使得租價下降啊。所以檢驗正確很重要。檢驗正確很重要。"},{"start":25495.851,"end":25503.498,"text":"國民選拔在我們所有檢過的罷聘裡面都沒有目前沒有判有這個異性授體數碼。"},{"start":25534.103,"end":25550.61,"text":"謝謝謝委員榮介。接下來我們請登記第10位吳委員配議。請質詢。我請行政院院長。請行政院陳院長備詢。"},{"start":25558.632,"end":25585.14,"text":"委員恭喜你院長好,我接續剛剛前面委員的發言我想本會多數的委員包括我吳佩奕包括我們會議主席韓國瑜院長在內我們都不敢自稱我們是食安的專家但是依照我們的法定職權我們可不可以站在這裡來質詢我們政府對食安的管理當然是可以而且必要"},{"start":25585.796,"end":25607.513,"text":"沒有錯,但是我們質詢應該本於什麼呢?我們應該要依法依照我們對公務機關、實務、公共行政的了解依照公共行政的辦法來提出我們的質疑目的是在於我們希望可以釐清過程目的是在於我們希望可以讓我們政府的運作每一次的執行可以更加的進步改善"},{"start":25608.554,"end":25619.949,"text":"所以說剛剛前面有委員提到說在我們這一次臺中傳出天選之肉在實驗室裡面有驗出這麼一盒的豬肉含有西布特羅"},{"start":25621.141,"end":25643.058,"text":"那我們的中央包括農業部包括衛福部等等的趕快來進行抽驗同批次抽驗不同批次抽驗等等我們都去做了剛前面有委員說即便在同批次肉品的抽驗當中因為我們只抽驗出3%是沒有未檢出的"},{"start":25643.899,"end":25660.306,"text":"那就代表有可能剩下的97%那可能是有問題的我想要請問院長基於您過去對於科學背景的了解剛剛這樣子的陳述符不符合我們對科學調研的理解呢?"},{"start":25661.106,"end":25681.003,"text":"這個當然不符合嘛因為這個同批次通常在食品食安的調查就是同批次檢驗出來如果你有一個樣本有最好照其他的同一批但是同批次都沒有的時候那就是表示是安全的嘛所以他的這樣的推論是不合理的啦"},{"start":25681.667,"end":25704.654,"text":"沒有錯其實過去我在臺北市議會擔任市議員按照我對於我們政府機關相關的檢驗辦法的了解我們臺北市政府衛生局做食安檢驗的時候我們向來也是做抽驗不只是食安例如說我們的公安消防的檢查也是做抽檢這個道理其實很簡單因為我們有科學的依據"},{"start":25705.734,"end":25712.746,"text":"按照抽樣的辦法告訴我們只要我們做了抽檢我們能夠對結果能夠得出相關的推論因為倘若我們認為所有的檢查"},{"start":25716.496,"end":25743.011,"text":"都要竹科檢查都要豬肉普篩這個政府和一個政府機關不管是中央政府還是地方政府都不可能有辦法來運行我們每天就在檢查就好我們還需要執法單位嗎我們還需要行政單位嗎所以呢這個不管是按照科學的理解還是我們對於行政部門的理解剛剛這個上述的陳述方法都是不符合現實的那但是我還是想要來釐清喔"},{"start":25744.692,"end":25768.945,"text":"因為我們對科學的理解其實不只是主觀我們想怎麼樣就怎麼樣我讀過一本書這本書裡面提到幾句話說人類我們擁有能夠探索未知與思辨的頭腦每當一不尋常的事情發生時我們常會思索發生的原因是什麼我們要了解因果關係探究問題發生的原因"},{"start":25770.686,"end":25791.235,"text":"是解決問題的先決條件請問院長這一本書你有沒有讀過這是我寫的因果螺旋對這是因果螺旋所以因果關係判定很重要所以我相信陳建仁院士跟陳建仁院長對於科學都會有相當的注重台中檢驗出這麼一盒"},{"start":25792.588,"end":25808.695,"text":"主柔當然是一件不尋常的事情今天在本會裡面很多的討論是關於當台中市政府2月2號對外發布這個訊息的時候這個時間點究竟是太快太急倉促了還是"},{"start":25809.753,"end":25836.576,"text":"太慢了我個人認為這個時間點是慢了因為事實上根據我們後續得到的資料台中市政府第一次檢驗出這一盒豬肉裡面含有西部特羅微量的時間是在1月15號請問在1月15號到2月2號台中市政府對外發布訊息之前我們中央有沒有收到任何來自台中市政府的資訊"},{"start":25838.7,"end":25854.306,"text":"有沒有來請我們做復驗?有沒有來對我們進行通報?我們中間是完全沒有得到相關資訊的。但是事實上根據我們現在食安相關的法規確實對地方政府驗出來"},{"start":25856.108,"end":25881.883,"text":"這個不該檢驗出的東西的時候的通報我們目前沒有明確規範的SOP所以我認為這一點是我們未來可以去精進的但是我仍然想要請教因為不同的地方政府的機關可能做法也會不同倘若這件事件是發生在我們中央的機關當你們驗出來有這麼一盒的豬肉裡面含有西部特羅根本不該出現的違禁品的時候請問你們會怎麼做"},{"start":25884.236,"end":25905.472,"text":"跟委員報告其實臺中市政府他自己的自治條例裡面就有當你驗出來的時候24小時之內要先通報通報之後的話我們才有48小時可以去做處理包括這些有風險產品的下降如果在1月15號我們衛福部食藥署收到通報請問你們會怎麼做"},{"start":25907.952,"end":25924.377,"text":"如果是在15號接受到通報的話,第一個我們就有足夠的時間跟這個其他的縣市去採樣其他同批號的東西來再做一次檢驗,double check"},{"start":25925.731,"end":25953.081,"text":"談論一月十五號我們為府部收到通報在二月二號之前我們能不能夠完成同批次不同批次相關的溯源的追查有沒有辦法完成是可能完成的不過部長還是要提醒你你剛提到說臺中的這個自治條例裡面有規範那這個我們讓臺中市議會去對臺中市政府進行問責但是我們中央我們仍然是可以把這個SOP定定的更加精確因為我們希望我們希望這不只是"},{"start":25953.741,"end":25978.075,"text":"這一次的個案可以讓我們記取教訓嗎?這一次發生在台中市政府,未來有可能發生在其他地方政府。我想我們能夠繼續來精進。在我們這段時間的查驗當中,我今天在專案報告裡面有看到,我們目前是相關的檢驗一共是885件,那全部是零檢出,是嗎?這885件能不能再簡述一下包括了哪些的檢驗?"},{"start":25980.374,"end":26008.878,"text":"我跟委員說明就是我們在檢驗的部分大概分為兩個部分一個部分是在畜牧場的豬隻跟飼料的部分那另外一部分是在肉品的部分那整個的一個檢出的部分在前端的養豬場的豬毛豬血豬隻的部分跟飼料的部分大概有大概774件然後因為農業部的部分也抽了同一批的肉品那其他的部分是由衛護部加起來是885的部分"},{"start":26009.258,"end":26030.34,"text":"好,所以我們到養豬場去驗了嗎?對。 驗了沒有?養豬場驗了296件未檢出。對。 豬肉品市場我們驗了480。對,肉品市場是在屠宰階段的時候我們也驗了480。在上市之前也未檢出。同批的肉品驗了4件未檢出。其他送驗肉品13件未檢出。這個還不包括台糖相關自己的檢驗。"},{"start":26031.241,"end":26057.888,"text":"所以我們做了這麼多的檢驗總歸一句話目前為止除了台中市實驗室那一盒肉以外我們有沒有找到另外一塊肉裡面還有希夫特羅沒有目前所有的檢驗告訴我們結果就是這個結果嘛所以我們目前我們的認定其實跟台中市政府盧先生市長認定是雷同的因為盧市長也說這是一個個案這是一個單一的個案但是不代表我們應該要止步於此這個個案"},{"start":26060.225,"end":26080.319,"text":"一樣是引起國人這麼多的關心所以這個個案的源頭究竟他的因果關係為何為什麼會就這麼的發生這一盒肉裡面檢驗出西布特羅接下來我希望我們一定要把他追究把他調查清楚讓國人可以明白可不可以做到"},{"start":26084.5,"end":26104.651,"text":"整起事件裡面我認為讓我們感到最擔憂的是時安應該是一個科學問題但是時安現在被當作是一個政治事件被當作一個政治在操作為什麼這樣子說我覺得非常的遺憾的是就連我們本院裡面很多的同仁"},{"start":26106.155,"end":26116.632,"text":"也進行不正確資訊的傳播例如說這個林德福委員他說臺中這一盒肉這不可能是單一個案"},{"start":26118.951,"end":26147.105,"text":"那我不知道它的依據來源是什麼因為目前我們手邊握有所有的根據都告訴我們說這是一個單一案當然科學是有可能被推翻這還叫做科學嘛科學就是假設與檢驗假設與檢驗科學是有可能被推翻的但我們手邊握有多少證據講多少話截至目前為止所有的科學依據包括台中市政府的資料都告訴我們說這是一個個案"},{"start":26147.785,"end":26161.222,"text":"所以我覺得非常的遺憾我們都可以立委都可以做評論但不應該散佈錯誤的資訊再來非常遺憾的臺中市的羅廷維委員他直接的在網路上面直播說這個飼料是有問題的要去追查飼料廠請問飼料我們有沒有查"},{"start":26167.841,"end":26172.245,"text":"事料有查。查驗的結果是什麼?目前我們手邊所有的科學資料也告訴我們事料並沒有查出有問題。但是卻有立法委員、本會成員公開的在網路上這樣子去說。"},{"start":26187.841,"end":26204.667,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":26204.807,"end":26225.158,"text":"讓我們感到非常的遺憾林北好友這一個網路賬號事實上他是一個真人過去就常常的對本土農業做出不實的指控把食安拿來做政治操作造成社會的恐慌結果後來檢調查下去的發現原來他是一個騙子"},{"start":26227.281,"end":26238.538,"text":"甚至進行的自導自演但是這個過程當中對於我們本土農業對整個社會的信任感都已經造成了其實不可逆的傷害所以"},{"start":26240.538,"end":26269.879,"text":"我非常的希望我們這一次一定要把事情查清楚那另外我希望我們行政院要勇敢的站出來澄清因為我知道在上一次這個單一的事件裡面院長你也被現在我們本會的成員羅志強委員當時去告發你那還好法院最後釐清了真相不只是還給你一個公道是還給真相一個公道對真相最重要所以我希望我們行政院還是要勇敢的"},{"start":26270.942,"end":26286.875,"text":"出面的來澄清不是為你們辯護而是為事實辯護事實是什麼我們就應該要清楚的來說明剛剛我講到這個單一的事件為什麼我說非常的遺憾因為我當時也是臺北市議會的成員因為這個事件"},{"start":26290.899,"end":26317.161,"text":"有很多錯誤的資訊在社會上面流傳然後呢非常的遺憾有我們的公職人員我們的政治人物拿來做政治操作以至於當時的台北市政府看不住壓力讓我們學校裡面我們的小學生有半年的時間是吃不到蛋的我們的小學生在學校裡面有半年的時間營養午餐是沒有辦法吃到蛋餅的"},{"start":26317.793,"end":26338.447,"text":"但是事後我們投的查驗臺北市政府的查驗通通結果通通都是合格的沒有一個查驗是不合格臺北市政府的市長蔣萬市長大家都知道這跟我們是不同黨派但是事實不會因為顏色的不同"},{"start":26339.67,"end":26365.009,"text":"而轉彎所以我非常的希望我們可以把事情查明清楚並且我們要勇敢的為自己捍衛那所以呢我也要提醒這個院長如果剛講到這兩件事情我們的食安的成果裡面有一項的預算來源是不是來自於我們前瞻基礎建設預算我們的前瞻預算裡面關於食安建設是多少經費"},{"start":26366.942,"end":26369.844,"text":"前三期包括未執行的加總起來大概是至少有40億"},{"start":26385.354,"end":26385.574,"text":"院長我說的你認同嗎?"},{"start":26413.016,"end":26429.551,"text":"完全贊同所以政府實際上在這八年來做很多但是過去我們看到現在口口聲聲說要捍衛食安立場的委員當我們當年要提出前瞻基礎建設預算的時候他們在這裡大力的阻擋甚至不惜丟水球"},{"start":26431.343,"end":26431.783,"text":"好,我們來繼續努力。好,謝謝。"},{"start":26468.708,"end":26475.596,"text":"謝謝吳委員配意的質詢。跟議會報告我們現在休息10分鐘。好,現在休息。"},{"start":27157.816,"end":27158.376,"text":"報告院會我們現在繼續開會請王委員育敏質詢"},{"start":27170.064,"end":27173.891,"text":"謝謝韓院長。是不是我們可以請陳院長上台。請陳院長備詢。"},{"start":27180.478,"end":27202.069,"text":"王委員好,恭喜你當選立委。好,謝謝院長。院長我們今天是要用科學的方式而且很客觀的來探討這個民進黨執政8年這個食安的問題。那這個封面叫做總檢討報告。我請教院長,整個報告我看總檢討報告8年只有9頁,但是我看不到檢討。"},{"start":27204.563,"end":27224.268,"text":"這通篇裡面沒有任何的檢討耶但是卻對馬政府時期提了非常多的食安事件這個有點離題了吧院長我有檢討我有說我們未來要怎麼精進但是通常食安是不斷的精進那我們要看我們在過去的8年在檢討過去8年檢討了什麼可不可以院長告訴本席"},{"start":27227.549,"end":27243.97,"text":"剛才我不是在我的報告如果詳細看我們有兩件還是系統性的問題我在文章裡面有寫但是呢這個兩件系統性的問題我們要來比較說到底有沒有所進步我們要看有沒有進步所以我們就比較前8年的情況"},{"start":27245.247,"end":27245.507,"text":"委員我可以講一下"},{"start":27262.682,"end":27263.263,"text":"馬總統說也有牛肉"},{"start":27286.061,"end":27286.321,"text":"﹗另外一個﹗"},{"start":27303.384,"end":27318.798,"text":"經用的國派銳從禁用變成是開放這個本席現在是在告訴你所以請院長先不要插話第一個就是源頭的部分破功你從源頭的管控變成源頭的開放另外一個的破功是什麼"},{"start":27319.378,"end":27335.582,"text":"加強查驗的部分也破空包括這個雞蛋吩咐你的事件我們可以看到超標這個當時也是一個很重大的食安事件另外還有去年我們看到美豬進來之後改標洗產地這個問題也非常的嚴重還有現在的蘇丹紅"},{"start":27340.683,"end":27366.525,"text":"正在燒的蘇丹紅這是你邊境查驗沒有查出來從源頭這邊沒有守住然後讓他放進來這個問題也是非常的嚴重還有今天很多人提到的臺中驗出來有一包臺場的豬肉含有瘦肉精但是呢我們現在整個行政系統包括民進黨的委員在打擊的是誰是第一線的食安人員"},{"start":27367.225,"end":27368.485,"text":"我可以回答嗎?我可以回答嗎?"},{"start":27395.513,"end":27397.114,"text":"跟院士報告一下,跟王委員報告一下,我們現在這個專案報告"},{"start":27416.167,"end":27429.251,"text":"所以是官員、委員共同使用這許大時15分鐘。所以我也可以回答啊。所以現在我還有問題要問你啊。我問你的時候你可以回答好不好?來接下來本席問你喔本席問你我們每週116年我們進口多少的美國豬肉?院長請回答本席的問題"},{"start":27440.655,"end":27467.649,"text":"一百一十二年進口多少美國豬肉?一百一十二年進口多少美國豬肉你知道嗎?一點一五萬噸啊。多少?一點一五萬噸。是。換算成是我們台灣的豬的話你知道大概有幾頭豬嗎?我不太清楚。這個不是我的專業。大概有九萬多頭。那我就問你這一些豬肉都到哪裡去了?這個豬肉當然就是"},{"start":27470.706,"end":27474.068,"text":"昨年就是消極會。消極會去年他自己在市面上查了289件他去抽這些所有的加工品沒有一件標美珠"},{"start":27501.642,"end":27526.515,"text":"沒有就沒有沒有就沒有沒有就沒有你知道我們現在我剛已經講過你進口的美豬的數量是高達一千多萬公斤等同是九萬多頭豬這樣的數量結果在我們的市面上沒有一件我們的加工品"},{"start":27527.535,"end":27553.428,"text":"有寫豬肉標示豬肉是美豬這合理嗎?這合理嗎?更別忘了去年的10月爆發出來的就是把美豬都改成什麼?標加拿大豬已經被查出來了那這件事情在去年10月這麼嚴重的時候那個我問一下這個部長你說要去改善這樣的情況現在改善了多少?"},{"start":27554.989,"end":27583.471,"text":"當時開放美豬進來行政院信誓旦旦清楚標示這個是你們管制的原則結果現在市面上完全看不到美豬那清楚標示跑去哪裡了?那個當然消極會去查的只不過其中一部分那他沒有查到的話就是他沒有查到他其他的部分當然有因為我們有這個輸入之後的"},{"start":27583.911,"end":27584.851,"text":"我知道說這個有這個來追蹤他的流向"},{"start":27612.962,"end":27622.147,"text":"但是到哪裡去我不會背起來。大致的你都沒有掌握,譬如說變成是加工品啊還是是什麼樣的產品。不可能背這種東西啦好不好。"},{"start":27626.187,"end":27649.098,"text":"美豬進來它會有不同的銷售的管道,它的管道五花八門,你要一個部會所長去把它進場。你總舉得出幾個類型吧?比如說去做水餃、做豆丸、做肉包還是去進到哪一個系統?我想我跟委員先說明一下,就是說整個豬肉的進口裡面,那美國豬肉大概占比是大概12,大部分的豬肉"},{"start":27649.738,"end":27653.762,"text":"現在目前進口因為國人習慣先食的肉的部分都是溫體豬肉比較多一點那大概八成大概有七成的豬肉都是用溫體的方式"},{"start":27673.32,"end":27690.688,"text":"那其他的是加工品那加工品的部分都到加工品區了大概大部分的進口豬肉都到加工的一個系統那現在改標的問題有沒有很嚴重你的意思是說美豬都進到加工系統但是按照我們的食安法進到加工系統你的原料還是要標示是美豬"},{"start":27691.708,"end":27697.532,"text":"那為什麼消基會抽到的樣品裡面很多加工品還是看不到美珠這兩個?那你可不可以提供本席就是有標示美珠的這些產品到底在哪裡?"},{"start":27715.403,"end":27740.172,"text":"還有本席要求剛剛部長說你既然都掌握所有流向我要知道這些流向到哪裡然後是不是還有繼續改標標識不實的問題這個是食安國人非常關注的那去年10月才爆發有嚴重的改標把美豬都改成加拿大那今年到底情況是不是還是一樣還是在你的稽查之後已經有改善本席要一個完整的報告接下來是我們主動去偵測出來的"},{"start":27745.035,"end":27749.7,"text":"改標就是改標嗎?不管是主動偵測出來,因為你當時承諾民眾就是要積極主動去發現有這樣的錯誤。那業者改標是業者的錯誤。第二個蘇丹紅的問題"},{"start":27761.614,"end":27762.335,"text":"目前有21家進口的是這有問題的產品。"},{"start":27785.829,"end":27800.676,"text":"那所以我們這21天通通都已經禁止進口3個月那已經過來的因為之前的話又沒有百分之百抽屁的所以那些部分我們現在正在後續再解釋"},{"start":27802.737,"end":27819.13,"text":"只查半年只查到半年為什麼只設定這半年如果過去只有50%的抽驗以現在看起來這個大量失控的情況還有更多可能是不合格在市面上流竄你們為什麼目前只清查近半年172批還會再往前追查嗎"},{"start":27820.391,"end":27839.771,"text":"我們會繼續追查好本期要求要繼續追查因為這個不單純這個表示他有大量其實都是含有致癌物的蘇丹紅已經大量進到臺灣裡面這個實案事件我也要求你們必須要徹查清楚另外一個今天很多人提到的臺中的這個實案事件"},{"start":27840.532,"end":27868.458,"text":"院長你是聖騎士也是中研院院士還擔任過中研院的副院長但我剛剛在聽到你在答覆民進黨委員的時候你是先射箭再劃靶你已經心中有心證了你就是認定這件事情就是實驗室污染是不是我可以回答給我完整的時間你有沒有認定這是實驗室污染是不是你剛剛的答案本席聽起來就是這樣"},{"start":27869.561,"end":27887.502,"text":"現在我們所有的肉品檢驗不管是在飼養場、屠宰場或者是賣場都沒有檢驗出來西部特羅而西部特羅進口以後只分布在24家的實驗室而且所有的檢驗"},{"start":27888.923,"end":27889.443,"text":"現場搞我糾正你喔"},{"start":27909.378,"end":27926.094,"text":"同一批的豬肉裡面你知道嗎台中這邊300多公斤裡面當他們要再次回到福利社去抽的時候他們通通都已經賣光了他們已經賣完了所以他的這一批裡面你這樣子的推論會不會太大膽"},{"start":27926.815,"end":27936.059,"text":"我們有履歷溯源所以我們可以知道哪一個是同一批所以這一個很重要的臺中市政府在檢驗過來了以後這一個可能性所排除掉其他可能汙染的來源以後我們知道說就是臺中市政府實驗室的這一塊豬肉測得出來有西部特柔那請問這個西部特柔從哪裡來"},{"start":27954.286,"end":27978.826,"text":"你如果是科學家你一定要知道2月6號、2月19號中央復驗還有審查實驗室已經認證,流程如果沒有問題,流程是不是沒有問題?檢驗的流程是不是沒有問題?部長你回答。上架之後是沒有問題,但是上架之前我們不知道。你說檢驗的流程沒有問題,我在問你實驗室檢驗流程有沒有問題?"},{"start":27980.037,"end":27989.125,"text":"二月六號說沒有問題,你現在要改口嗎?上架之後沒有問題,所以我那時候就要講前處理要開始查。"},{"start":27990.256,"end":28013.819,"text":"全處理要開始擦了是那現在真相未明的情況院長你急於定調一定就是實驗室污染我只問你這樣子對第一線實案人員公平嗎?科學的證據專家學者會議開完了嗎?還沒開完結論出來了嗎?還沒有但是我們的行政院院長今天在立法院回復"},{"start":28015.28,"end":28021.203,"text":"排除了所有的懶人、討論媒體你看今天的排除法是怎麼做的?這是邏輯,這是科學的推論這是邏輯與科學的推論當然,專家會議要去看實驗室哪一個地方出現問題才會檢驗出來"},{"start":28039.412,"end":28046.615,"text":"我沒有貼標籤是你的回答讓大家有這樣的看法是你的回答讓大家有這樣的看法而且最後我讓院長看一下食安人員的眼淚"},{"start":28066.505,"end":28082.248,"text":"我這張圖要告訴院長,施安人員查緝施安中央地方一條心。今天不應該是回過頭去打擊施安人員的事情。如果我是這樣子,我完全不同意的打法。我們中央跟地方是合作的。你就是故意挑撥離間。謝謝"},{"start":28107.427,"end":28125.59,"text":"謝謝王委員、玉敏的質詢。再一次跟院會報告,這次是專案的、實案問題的報告,採用疾問擠答,要拜託委員跟官員之間互相尊重,共同遵守相關質詢規定,再次感謝大家。"},{"start":28127.096,"end":28130.86,"text":"接下來我們請何委員心存質詢謝謝謝謝院長我們請陳建仁院長也請我們農業部部長也請衛生福利部部長"},{"start":28152.293,"end":28178.448,"text":"請陳院長及相關部會首長備詢。我相信我們不管中央地方我們都非常肯定也非常心疼也心存感恩謝謝第一線上食安的所有的稽查人員所以剛剛我聽到院長能夠義正嚴實的"},{"start":28180.009,"end":28203.611,"text":"第一個為了維護這些稽查人員的尊嚴我們肯定他為了維護這些稽查人員我們感謝他的辛苦院長的態度是對的因為我們不能接受有人類似挑撥離間的說法這是剛剛院長所講我們肯定第一線稽查人員的辛苦我們完全肯定他們也跟他們一起合作"},{"start":28204.008,"end":28226.158,"text":"我們一起合作嘛因為我們只有一個目標就是守護國人的食安所以在肯定第一線的稽查人員的時候我們真的知道他們辛苦過年的時候還不斷的在加班稽查但是同樣的就是為了食安我們必須要接受科學的驗證"},{"start":28227.378,"end":28245.191,"text":"因為院長還有所有的食安機場人員所有的專業人員也都知道食安是科學的我們科學的驗證是大家必須要有用專業去面對所以真的不要"},{"start":28246.431,"end":28264.297,"text":"用一些情緒性的或者是一些不夠科學證據不是那麼充分的情況之下我覺得今天有很多的委員的一個發言都沒有讓院長好好的說清楚我覺得實案再講一次第一個中央地方只有一個目標維護國人的實案"},{"start":28266.418,"end":28289.179,"text":"第二個要維護食安只要一旦有相關類似食安事件的發生的時候溯源真相讓人民安心這個才是重點嗎院長同不同意我完全同意確實這個整個食安我們中央跟地方密切合作而食安人員相當的辛勞那這一個事件是台中市在做決策的時候"},{"start":28290.44,"end":28296.724,"text":"應該要更加的作援我剛才也早上也曾經講過因為他檢驗的濃度相當的低而且只有一個樣本"},{"start":28297.492,"end":28323.165,"text":"所以應該要在做決策的時候應該更謹慎一點來避免恐慌。舉個例子像豬籠或者是台糖就因此而有很大的損失。所以院長我們再來講一下你剛剛講的我們食安五環這是我們2016執政之後勇於面對積極的去建立這樣的食安五環的一個制度。好那針對剛剛這個案件所謂大家在關心台糖梅花肉事件就如同剛剛院長你講的"},{"start":28325.111,"end":28346.165,"text":"台中市政府到底他檢驗了之後他在這個所謂的從飼養、屠宰、分裝到市場上、市面上這每一個環節院長你知道台中市政府在通報的時候有沒有告訴中央說這些他都有去檢驗過嗎?沒有"},{"start":28349.122,"end":28350.503,"text":"對,確實當時只是公布說臺黨的一塊豬肉驗出來,就只有這樣。"},{"start":28370.672,"end":28395.095,"text":"沒有任何的查核沒有任何查核所以今天我們事實上應該給院長時間而且我看院長從早上到現在不斷的在告訴國人不斷的在告訴各位委員說我們中央一旦知道2月2號收到通報之後我們趕快去溯源我們去驗飼料飼料那邊沒有我們也去驗屠宰分莊有沒有也說沒有"},{"start":28395.475,"end":28410.869,"text":"那甚至呢我們要求跟各地方政府聯手稽查我們希望臺堂這個同批的肉品裡面我們抽樣的檢查到現在剛剛我們收到的報告是800多件將近900件"},{"start":28412.461,"end":28428.886,"text":"是零檢出的對不對院長對完全檢不出來所以我就要請教院長這個就是社會的質疑嘛為什麼台中市政府1月15號抽檢2月2號公布而這中間半個多月兩個禮拜的時間"},{"start":28431.047,"end":28450.729,"text":"剛剛我們聽到院長說中央不知道臺中市政府到底有沒有去溯源比如說去抽驗飼料比如說去看這個屠宰的這個分莊的一個場域有沒有再去市面上去抽臺糖這一個梅花肉同一批的肉品"},{"start":28451.81,"end":28464.649,"text":"好像到目前為止我們都沒有看到臺中市政府有交代那這半個多月的時間院長你覺得我們第一個臺中市政府沒有讓臺堂申請復驗這個程序"},{"start":28466.932,"end":28495.276,"text":"第二個也沒讓中央知道那他相關復驗的就是說他從溯源的這個相關復驗的檢驗程序他也都沒有清楚交代那院長這件事給我們什麼啟示我們中央地方應該還要怎麼精進讓食安能夠更安全更讓人民放心我想在這整個的過程當中我們可以發現齁在臺中市政府這個檢驗齁他為什麼會拖這麼多時間呢說實在話他因為他只有採了一個樣品"},{"start":28496.247,"end":28524.3,"text":"那個樣品檢驗出來以後他發現有西部特羅在前面那一段然後他就後來又把那一塊肉再切一塊然後再來做然後又發現那實際上來來去去都是只針對著一塊肉在那邊做檢驗那沒有去想到說同一批的這個豬肉也需要再去採檢那這個檢驗出來的濃度很低的時候他們也沒有去再尋求更多的這一個"},{"start":28525.942,"end":28547.485,"text":"復宗的復驗的部分所以未來在整個的這個程序當中我們會再跟我剛才也答應吳世耀委員我們中央跟地方一起再合作怎麼樣把這個檢驗的過程來SOP做得更完整一點讓地方政府也知道說在公布這個事實之前特別是很低劑量的時候應該要做到什麼的程度"},{"start":28547.885,"end":28572.739,"text":"然後呢也應該要跟這個廠商這邊要有所瞭解以後才來做公佈免得引起不必要的恐慌導致...院長我覺得要更精準的說而是說在我們整個實案的相關的法規或者是實驗抽樣的相關的規範裡面SOP我們中央地方應該要好好的來坐下來檢討面對如何讓它精進因為我不希望有下一次同樣的事情來發生"},{"start":28573.86,"end":28601.937,"text":"但是呢這個精進是為了讓國人安心跟放心也為了要維護其他受影響的比如說豬農比如說肉品市場相關的產業我們也是為了要維護他們的這個權益我覺得這個是要方方面面真的是要仔仔細細的中央地方大家要聯手這個不是在搶攻這個也不是在說食安有英雄主義食安沒有英雄主義"},{"start":28602.677,"end":28617.033,"text":"施安只有團隊的精神,大家一起合作為國人把關,院長同不同意?完全同意,我們要團結一心,中央地方一起合作,還有公司一定要協力,那這樣才能夠把這個施安的部分做到最好。"},{"start":28617.554,"end":28637.68,"text":"所以院長那如果現在以現在目前看到目前還有所有顯現的這個證據還有你們抽驗包括各地方政府都抽驗檢查的結果都是零檢出的情況之下我記得院長在2月20號有說臺中的天選之後這個個案是一個單純的一個個案那盧市長也說這是一個單純的個案"},{"start":28647.202,"end":28656.326,"text":"單純的意思就是說只有一塊豬肉到目前為止只有一塊豬肉檢驗出來有西部特羅而且是只有在台中市這裡檢驗的到那這個是單一個案"},{"start":28659.747,"end":28686.906,"text":"也就是說其他的豬肉都沒有受到影響所以民眾可以放心的使用那我相信臺中市政府也找不到任何的市政要去說這不是單一事件因為他如果是單一事件就很重要了為什麼這個單一事件會發生在臺中市的市政府的檢驗室裡面所以我們需要去了解發生在臺中市政府的檢驗室裡面的原因這也就是為什麼我們的專家委員會"},{"start":28687.882,"end":28708.972,"text":"來特別針對著這個實驗室因為是在這個實驗室裡面檢驗到去看看不同的實驗的這個步驟操作的情況是在哪一個環節出錯因為其他的實驗室都驗不出來就只有他的實驗室驗得出來而且那個實驗室又剛好是去有西部特羅的成分在所以這個本來就是食安"},{"start":28709.752,"end":28728.509,"text":"為了要精進檢驗的方法操作的步驟然後要所有的這個復驗的情況都能夠做得很好所以才會去做這個實驗室的調查那我覺得台中市政府既然他認為是單一的事件這個單一事件是在實驗室他也應該在針對實驗室來做更"},{"start":28730.851,"end":28753.3,"text":"更精確的這個了解也應該要針對實驗室裡面在實驗的過程裡面是不是有哪個環節出錯臺中市政府也必須對這一件事情給個交代就如同我剛剛一開始問院長的其實1月15號到2月2號在中間裡面即使那一塊肉在那個實驗室不管是檢驗了6次7次10次22次那"},{"start":28755.401,"end":28755.421,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":28773.43,"end":28791.96,"text":"為什麼他剪得出來嗎?而且我覺得可能我要再提醒我們中央,剛剛有其他委員一直在指稱國防部在那個臺中福利站那個同批的這個肉品都已經賣出了,好像說那些賣出了就已經流入市面,但是呢?院長"},{"start":28793.462,"end":28814.498,"text":"部長他們都在這裡同批的肉品賣出的那一批的肉品不代表就是跟受到檢驗的那一個實驗室的那一盒梅花豬肉片是同一批的肉品因為我們有溯源制度事實上是要根據他和尚的溯源"},{"start":28815.179,"end":28815.659,"text":"所以我覺得這個要講清楚喔"},{"start":28830.951,"end":28835.312,"text":"我想特別說明一下臺東施政我所取的這40個樣品他是在同一天在不同的地區去取樣"},{"start":28852.396,"end":28870.801,"text":"那針對這個同一批的部分那麼同一批的部分大概只有兩個一個是梅花肉一個是小排的部分所以他的梅花肉這個樣品檢測出來西部特留這個樣品就是那一盒那一塊肉那後續他做檢驗的時候都是在這一塊肉裡面重複去做這些相關的一個檢測"},{"start":28871.761,"end":28888.927,"text":"那基本上在一個比較正常的一個檢測的邏輯上面來如果它的檢測的量是非常低的時候應該去尋求前後批或者是同批的其他不同的透過履歷追溯其他不同的同品項產品再去做確認這樣的話會是會是比較嚴謹的"},{"start":28891.288,"end":28892.069,"text":"是不是才是比較嚴謹的做法"},{"start":28917.999,"end":28944.179,"text":"對,我們未來可能還是要跟地方合作,把這個SOP建立好,像委員所建立的一樣。如果他們檢驗出什麼東西的話,也來通報中央,中央也來幫忙做這個double check,或者更完整的來把這個資料呈現出來。我在請問院長,我剛剛講的1月15號到2月2號,他們兩個禮拜自己在那裡做確認,那沒有通報中央,那我們在相關的法規的SOP上面有沒有其他的規範?"},{"start":28944.96,"end":28949.021,"text":"目前是沒有完整的規範所以我們會在這個部分像委員所建立的話在實驗室操作準則還有通報然後復驗這個部分我們會再來精進"},{"start":28971.852,"end":28999.817,"text":"好那所以我再提醒一次喔很多委員拿了說所謂已經流入市面的什麼那些幾千包的這個肉品可能就是那個破口我覺得這個行政院中央我們基於科學的這個依據我覺得要講清楚這個一定要講清楚不要造成民心的這個不安那個委員的那個委員喔我剛才講的時候有一點點比較講"},{"start":29001.867,"end":29025.218,"text":"講的比較大聲一點那實際上我們所有的食品的抽樣只要樣本數大於30的時候呢實際上它就具有代表性這就是一般的食安檢查的時候就用抽樣來檢查那沒有一個食安的檢查是要做百分之百的這個是不合科學根據的也不合統計學的理論根據的"},{"start":29026.735,"end":29051.616,"text":"所以院長我覺得在面對任何的這個問題的時候我覺得我們要簡單直白讓人家聽得懂的話語來解釋像剛剛我們的一番討論我覺得就會讓人家更清楚的明白說中央是有誠意而且中央是負責任的在維護國人的食安對不對最後10秒我只有兩件事今天受這個影響叫台糖是國營事業"},{"start":29053.217,"end":29060.462,"text":"如果換作其他的私人民間企業可能就撐不住了。這一件事情我覺得應該要有研議。"},{"start":29083.763,"end":29097.951,"text":"謝謝何委員心存的質詢。接下來我們請登記第13號李委員燕秀質詢。謝謝韓院長。我請陳院長。再請陳院長備詢。"},{"start":29107.604,"end":29133.232,"text":"議員午安,恭喜你當選。議員長,您是科學家,您也曾經擔任過衛生署署長。您對於藥證、食安,我相信您也都非常清楚了解。這一次整個臺堂的肉品事件,我覺得造成的是民眾在第一時間聽到的時候是恐慌的,但是整件事情後續的延燒,"},{"start":29134.512,"end":29158.147,"text":"會造成食安人員其實非常的委屈我完全同意啦所以這個檢驗本身就是要很謹慎要有正確的時候才對外國人才不會引起恐慌我相信你對法規也非常清楚我過去長期在胃黃委員會對於整個食安的政策整個過程制定的過程我也給予很多修法的意見我也非常清楚"},{"start":29158.647,"end":29173.798,"text":"但是我相信我們大家都不樂意見到的是最後食安問題變成政治鬥爭的犧牲品這個是我們大家都不樂意見到的當然我也不樂意院長那我就要請問從21號的食安專家會議喔"},{"start":29176.8,"end":29178.221,"text":"施安專家的會議沒有公審的意思"},{"start":29195.02,"end":29220.91,"text":"您是這麼說因為您也不在現場我相信這整個過程你同不同意我說一句話你同不同意我們認為整個稽查人員在稽查的過程當中其實幫民眾把關其實也非常辛苦我們要謝謝他他們也很辛苦我認為您是一個過去我認識的陳院長您是一個有溫度非常溫暖的院長您也是36萬公務人員的院長"},{"start":29224.622,"end":29234.91,"text":"如果臺中處的施安處委員員21號真的有在施安諮詢委員會裡面,掉了眼淚,覺得身為36萬公務員的大院長,"},{"start":29240.092,"end":29262.656,"text":"我會感到不捨,如果他真的掉眼淚,他受到委屈我會不捨,但是我不是在現場,我沒有辦法講,那你說我相信我們在臺上的韓院長一定會拍拍肩膀,加油,我們一起努力,我相信你也應該會如此,不管拍肩膀握手,我覺得臨時36萬公務人員的大家長,七層的機場人員,我會謝謝他。"},{"start":29268.157,"end":29287.38,"text":"院長先讓我講完我相信我們都給予他們最大鼓勵至於未來每一次事件之後我覺得在食安法的修法中央跟地方如何合作我們都應該更明確有一個更標準的SOP好院長我相信你對法規都非常清楚"},{"start":29288.859,"end":29302.873,"text":"無論食安法、食安法的52條也好在整個清查過程當中就我的了解第一時間公告檢查出來不論檢查出來的出院20次、21次、22次根據法規都應該是第一時間公開對不對"},{"start":29309.859,"end":29325.438,"text":"對,但是要檢驗很正確,這個很重要。您認為他檢驗不正確,不管是西庫特羅在地方有檢驗出來,不管他檢驗出來是多少,他如果是不得檢出,他就有公告的義務。要確認檢出的數據是正確的。"},{"start":29329.062,"end":29335.504,"text":"我剛才講的你要檢驗一個樣品如果是極微量的時候那要確定那個極微量是否正確呢就需要再去做同批的檢查"},{"start":29348.487,"end":29370.666,"text":"那因為他所做出來的這個Range呢差了很多嘛所以他的實驗的方法本身是所測出來的值喔同一塊豬肉測出來的值會有那麼大的變異就需要了解說這個實驗的步驟或者實驗出來的結果是不是正確所以他做了22次嘛所以他做了22次後來他送到中央復驗他還是有驗出"},{"start":29377.25,"end":29400.854,"text":"這個檢驗這個申請復驗只有台堂可以就是檢驗出他自己他是業者他只有他自己可以申請復驗這個流程我覺得我們都可以實驗室不可以這樣欸我們做過實驗的我今天如果我自己在做實驗發現我實驗的結果同一個樣本實驗有十幾倍的差異我會自己來檢討實驗有沒有錯這是實驗的基本要求"},{"start":29405.535,"end":29426.102,"text":"我們不要再叫地方做檢驗室了過去我們長期希望地方把檢驗室做好我相信薛部長很清楚所以我們才有全債預算在基層花了11億做檢驗室我們給他們標準配備希望他們來做如果是這樣我建議基察人員不要這麼辛苦地方不要那麼辛苦"},{"start":29426.582,"end":29454.509,"text":"全部都收回來中央來驗沒有這回事為中央到地方我們允許有行政命令允許他們有14天的時間最長14天的時間申請復驗宣布長我講的沒錯吧這14天當中我不是講這一次的事件這14天當中都有任何一個食安事件都有可能如果是真的有問題有可能流入消費者的肚子裡面這都不是我們願意見到的"},{"start":29456.317,"end":29472.538,"text":"如果大家對於地方的檢驗室這麼不信任,警察人員有這麼多的委屈,我覺得應該是收回來中央算了,這不是我的意見,好,院長你聽我講完,你聽我講,我沒有要跟你吵架,我今天是做法論法。"},{"start":29474.761,"end":29487.508,"text":"我們希望每一次的討論讓食安後續的過程接下來如果萬一再有食安的管理事件我們可以更精進中央地方全責我們一起把它處理得更好這是我們的目標 院長時間真的不多"},{"start":29493.912,"end":29513.545,"text":"所有的實驗要公佈以前一定要確認實驗的步驟是正確的嘛那如果你實驗不正確你怎麼公佈呢所以你認為他的實驗的過程不正確就對了其實他自己也有質疑啊因為他自己的檢驗差了十幾倍啊那他為什麼要驗22次"},{"start":29515.586,"end":29530.524,"text":"沒關係,院長,院長,院長,接下來的過程我覺得我們可以更多討論的空間,所以我說如果,就是他因為希伯特羅其實是非常少數的,他們也擔心實驗會有誤差,所以他們才會檢測這麼多次,那"},{"start":29533.047,"end":29533.848,"text":"很辛苦而且我們感謝他們"},{"start":29548.94,"end":29569.706,"text":"他們真的很認真人夠不夠以台北市為例喔這還不包括市場這些還有包括流動攤販等等其實3萬的餐飲跟食品業者只有53個稽查人員還有包括我們最近這幾年我們食安的源頭管理包括我們開放萊豬開放核食"},{"start":29572.307,"end":29598.416,"text":"有更多的專案包括前一陣子進口的日本草莓等等每天有這麼多的專案在做但是我們以台北市來說我們只有53個人力是嚴重的不足所以在過程當中我可以感受到臺中的稽查業者為什麼會在會議上掉眼淚所以我今天其實另外一個重要的議題我認為我們應該中央另外想辦法補人給人"},{"start":29599.216,"end":29604.34,"text":"所以不應該反對前瞻建設,我們有補了26億喔!我們會繼續努力!我們會繼續努力!我們會繼續努力!所以,院長,那我現在問你,你要不要再另外額外給人?"},{"start":29614.187,"end":29643.349,"text":"各縣市你給錢給人啊現在整個的檢驗的這個過程應該怎麼樣來精進我剛才已經答應前面的委員說我們會再來跟中央地方一起來檢討怎麼樣來精進這整個檢驗的過程這個我們會來努力然後瞭解現在的人力的指導我提的啦你就乾脆檢驗以後都直接送中央不要地方了不然的話你對地方有這麼多的問號不信任這不是食安法的規定"},{"start":29644.27,"end":29645.41,"text":"但是食安法不是這樣規定啊"},{"start":29672.722,"end":29696.979,"text":"我說收回法當能做調整啊。 院長,院長,源頭管理沒做好就會累死地方的基層。近8年來,近8年來,近8年來,食安的問題不斷。所以雲林縣做得很好啊,找到了那個紅辣椒的問題啊。院長時間暫停,我如果一直講話院長不聽我講話我怎麼答詢的下去,時間先暫停。"},{"start":29702.076,"end":29730.913,"text":"我們是急問急答啦!專案報告時間再一次跟院會報告跟委員報告一下今天是專案報告也要請官員跟委員之間能夠還是一樣暫時呼籲相互尊重好了我們相互尊重急問急答院長謝謝韓院長我平常也是個很溫和的人陳院長我今天除了要跟你要人力稽查人力"},{"start":29732.363,"end":29741,"text":"我相信這不是太困難的事情給更多的稽查人力我們把食安工作做得更好我相信這點應該能具體承諾吧"},{"start":29742.005,"end":29763.831,"text":"對﹚"},{"start":29764.371,"end":29791.274,"text":"我們有農產品我們有生產履歷但是有一塊我覺得我們可以做得更好包括我們現在有區塊鏈對於整個管理的機制資訊機制從農產到餐桌上那整個成品的過程中我們有可能用一個QR code可以看得更清楚這個都是未來我覺得食品管理的方向"},{"start":29793.576,"end":29816.628,"text":"我們努力朝那個方向來進行我覺得這樣子的討論方式你不要一聽到我質詢就我們兩個一直我覺得這個質詢是沒有辦法讓彼此更進步所以如果院長也同意給人給基層同仁36萬的公務人員更多的鼓勵給我們這些稽查同仁更多的加油打氣給更多的溫暖"},{"start":29818.356,"end":29845.032,"text":"我覺得大家對於食安的進步人民才有機會對於政府我們的答詢對於政府從中央到地方給予更多的肯定臺灣是一個美食王國怎麼樣讓食品的安全讓國際看得到我們管理是很嚴格的所以我才會提出來說稽查人力我們增加我們未來要怎麼樣精進我們食安的機制我們可以進一步再探討只要我們把SOP寫得更清楚"},{"start":29846.629,"end":29873.457,"text":"15天之內未來是不是都15天之內所有的復驗都一定要送進來我指的是所有的都要送進來喔那個薛部長你知道我在講什麼對不對你現在是要求復驗15天都要送那未來是不是15都是15天每一樣都是15天15天是那廠商可以要求但是我們不一定要等那15天要看風險高低"},{"start":29875.41,"end":29897.327,"text":"如果這個東西是風險高的好那我15天對我一個媽媽來說媽媽的角色來說我等不到15天因為任何一天流露到我小孩我家人的肚子裡面我都是會擔心的所以這個就是我們討論啦三天是不是民眾可以接受的"},{"start":29898.665,"end":29915.037,"text":"所以我覺得這個都是政策面的討論你要想清楚再對外交代說明好不好那所以我覺得整起事件我覺得食品安全我還是從頭來說它真的是一個科學問題它是一個民生問題"},{"start":29916.808,"end":29917.009,"text":"﹚發言委員"},{"start":29938.846,"end":29939.146,"text":"很好的建議"},{"start":29960.789,"end":29978.555,"text":"院長我們今天專案報告是過去8年的食安的檢討其實過去8年食安的事件其實也不算少包括過年期間我們的這個蘿蔔我們的白蘿蔔含農藥的事件還有近期稍微先"},{"start":29981.276,"end":30001.929,"text":"我講蘇丹紅的事件雖然業者是在新北但是發現在高雄第一時間也就快速的下架是對不對那無論是在野黨無論是在野我們自己在野黨我們都覺得下架很好啊我們盡速的下架處理那我們中央也沒有任何機遇我們也沒有講說要不要再多檢查看看"},{"start":30004.789,"end":30025.777,"text":"所以我才說不要兩套標準我覺得我們在處理的過程當中我們都把它當成這都是我們不管中央的稽查人員我們地方的稽查人員中央的食藥署我們地方的食安署我們都把它當成我們是同一個團隊在守護民眾的健康不要有太多的不信任"},{"start":30026.397,"end":30046.41,"text":"我們沒有不信任就不會讓民眾覺得說怎麼食安問題變成是一個政治事件我們現在中央跟地方一起合作來做食安已經做了8年食安午飯做得很好不像委員在這裡講的這只是口號治國這是真正實時的踏實在做我們也謝謝我們也謝謝各地方政府的努力"},{"start":30050.293,"end":30072.299,"text":"院長,我只剩下42、41秒。十案五環,過去我們都認為在源頭的管理破了好幾個洞。所以近期我有羅列出來有這麼多戴亞新的機案、芬普尼的雞蛋,還有包括最近的蘇丹紅的蝦尾仙的事件。我們如果做得更快速的話,說不定蝦尾仙會回收得更快,原來36萬包我們只回收9萬包。"},{"start":30073.439,"end":30077.303,"text":"議員長我只能說齁,民眾對於食安的管理是沒有信心的。我只能說沒有信心的。所以你食安武漢破了好幾個洞之後"},{"start":30104.983,"end":30125.116,"text":"好,謝謝李委員燕秀的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第14位王委員定宇質詢。謝謝院長,麻煩陳建仁院長。再請陳院長備詢。謝謝。"},{"start":30136.778,"end":30152.377,"text":"我想食安應該是一個科學問題但是食安如果用太多的政治口水他會變心理恐慌問題所以我們政府面對食安有點像衛生紙衛生紙夠不夠他是經濟問題"},{"start":30154.059,"end":30172.465,"text":"大家都在搶衛生紙心理的恐慌他反而也會造成造就問題所以我盡量不用政治方面來討論下列的事情我先請教一個基本的事情當我們發現有食安的威脅的時候我們發布就是公佈於眾的標準"},{"start":30174.145,"end":30199.254,"text":"是甚麼?因為我們都希望說,這個東西有問題,要趕快讓白社知道,越快越好。但是要求正確,因為它一旦不正確,你發布了就會從科學問題變心理問題。你知道我的意思嗎?它是兩面性。又要快,又要準。所以我第一個請教就是,發現食安威脅的時候,它發布的標準,我們現在有沒有一個一定的標準?"},{"start":30202.515,"end":30225.808,"text":"我們讓薛部長坐著好不好?因為薛部長實力真的還不夠。沒關係啦。兩位都坐著我都可以接受。坐著好了,因為薛委員那個薛部長。時間還在照跑欸。院長我尊重你的才智啊,但你時間還給我照跑這樣不好啦。坐著打沒關係,因為你真的很不舒服的感覺好不好。院長你也請坐一下沒關係。沒關係我可以。反正內容一樣,時間請繼續。"},{"start":30227.329,"end":30229.37,"text":"實案問題到底在什麼標準下該公佈,我們應該有一個標準吧,現在標準是什麼?"},{"start":30249.833,"end":30268.997,"text":"還是在地方政府做第一線地方政府那個是行政程序我講的是標準實驗室做出什麼結果在什麼狀態下要公佈於眾目前的話並沒有一個特定的標準所以還是要看這個布置的風險第一個問題就是我們現在面對又要快又要準"},{"start":30276.598,"end":30276.738,"text":"我下一個問題是"},{"start":30299.635,"end":30319.7,"text":"縱使我們在實驗室我在寫論文控制組對照組我會不會這一個品項這一個單品我驗出來數值可以得到諾貝爾獎哇這數據嚇死人啊我就公佈當然不行要確認是不可以這是科學問題這不是政治問題我現在檢驗一個東西"},{"start":30322.349,"end":30341.459,"text":"他的數據很驚人我不會急著公布在論文上何況會引起大眾恐慌的數據我下一步應該怎麼做我應該在同類型的或同批次的東西再找一些來抽如果都是這樣子我可能發現新物種我可能發現新東西嘛"},{"start":30342.421,"end":30365.168,"text":"那如果我只有這個單一品項數據異常可是同一批次同一物種我現在講的是實驗室都跟他不一樣那我就開始要研究了到底是這個單項有病變還是我的實驗室流程有謬誤那有的還會用轉軸讓結果符合理論那個是不可取啦所以這個才是科學精神嘛對"},{"start":30366.92,"end":30385.655,"text":"我接下來另外問一個也是基本的科學東西我單一一個東西我驗這一次這塊肉驗了22次了我驗一直驗一直驗我驗出這塊肉有西部特羅送到食藥署復驗有西部特羅有什麼稀罕啊你知道意思嗎"},{"start":30386.812,"end":30408.348,"text":"我拿一塊肉原來已經有被汙染了,再拿到實驗室復驗,它還是那一塊肉,沒有來到同批次的對照嘛。那我要問的是,我看報宅我現在要從這邊證實,這一塊肉抽了22次,抽的方法有沒有一樣?"},{"start":30409.448,"end":30409.468,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":30432.834,"end":30445.801,"text":"這就是一次做出來的差異太大了,差十幾倍嘛。對,我們在實驗室齁,如果同一個物件,一個object,如果落差超過35%,這個數據我可不可以寫在論文裡面?"},{"start":30451.174,"end":30467.025,"text":"這個我想這是不正確的啦這是有問題的嘛對不正確的數字我們現在講到這裡我並沒有特別去講是地方的問題中央問題他是一個科學驗證的問題如果食藥署同一塊肉你都驗了22次數據的落差超過35%前後數據高達十幾倍的不一樣作為一個科學實驗人員你馬上腦袋想的是這個數據有問題我不能馬上公佈出去"},{"start":30478.553,"end":30498.431,"text":"因為馬上公佈出去他會從科學問題變心理恐慌問題我完全同意這件事情是這個樣子嘛那一塊肉那一包肉就只有那一包對他確實驗出是基布特羅為什麼有我們待會再研究他驗出之後同一塊同一個同一包肉"},{"start":30499.844,"end":30518.983,"text":"打碎了兩次驗了22次落差10多倍單一數據的落差超過35%這不是民進黨說的算也不是國民黨說的算不是藍綠牌的問題可以去問全台灣所有實驗室不管是台大、成大任何實驗室這樣的數據能不能拿來當作論文的數據何況是拿來公佈於眾"},{"start":30523.447,"end":30549.81,"text":"所以是需要再進一步的所以我第二個問題是怎麼樣的數據可以公佈除了那個數值的PPB以外這個數據的流程對照組控制組橫向的檢驗到怎麼樣的狀況我要最快速度最正確的時候有了這個有威脅公佈於眾大家不要吃不要用這才對嘛那就這個階段的質詢到目前為止"},{"start":30550.979,"end":30579.318,"text":"這一次數據的第一時間公布有沒有符合科學精神因為他的差距很大然後都沒有再double check所以我們剛才才講說怎麼樣找到正確的數字再公布那因為他本身就有很大的range那他到底去挑哪一個數字那就隨著高興挑也不正確所以在當時應該是在做另外一個應該要同一批肉"},{"start":30580.038,"end":30608.077,"text":"同一頭豬同一隻產出來的肉其他部位抽一抽看有沒有才來決定對到底是系統性問題要公佈於眾如果如同盧秀燕市長所說的是個案問題你公佈於眾會產生什麼問題我待會先農業部長有來嘛齁那個陳俊基代部長先上來齁我把問題繼續往下推齁就是說那一包肉按照科學的原則"},{"start":30610.233,"end":30638.21,"text":"他的數據這樣的公佈到底是科學決定還是政治決定我個人打個問號我也不讓院長回答我認為那個決定在科學的公佈上其實是有一定的問題我有關院長跟這個部長最後一個問題要問的是目前經過其實那是毒澱粉之後我們臺南統一企業弄了一個食安辦公室他有經過國際認證嗎"},{"start":30640.219,"end":30666.202,"text":"然後另外SGS是民間的他的食品實驗室也經過國際認證嘛另外我們的這個我們中央單位有一個續產社那個也經過國際認證嘛這三個國際認證然後加上我們地方政府不管國民黨執政民進黨執政的地方政府的實驗室抽驗從所有的肉品"},{"start":30667.492,"end":30692.061,"text":"從豬的血液到毛髮到同批次的產品抽驗到現在萊克多巴胺跟西部特羅有沒有驗出沒有0所以我們幾乎可以斷定就只有台中市食安處的那一包肉有驗出來了而且經過中央食藥署復驗他確實有嘛就只有那一包肉所以盧秀燕市長其實定義的不錯他說這是個案我個人"},{"start":30692.857,"end":30707.779,"text":"對於過年前他講這次個案我表示佩服因為他講個案至少把衝擊降低一點對很多人減少影響那那個薛部長你先回去休息啦好了那個公佈的過程我們希望亡羊補牢就是建構"},{"start":30709.372,"end":30732.139,"text":"發布的標準,特別是經常使用的米麵、澱粉等等,它要多少PPB,然後實驗流程要經過什麼樣的程序,然後確認為系統性問題才應該公佈於眾,否則食安會從科學問題因為隨意的違反科學準則去公佈,它從科學問題變成心理恐慌問題。"},{"start":30733.817,"end":30759.084,"text":"那傷害的人就很多了對確實如果他真的有毒該公佈就公佈該被傷害就被傷害這責務龐大可是如果他根本不是系統性問題只是在實驗室你的超越同一塊肉二十二次結果不一樣落差高達35%以上任何學過基礎生物實驗的人都知道欸這要再看一看沒錯對不對沒錯然後這作為公佈就產生什麼問題呢我要請教農業部"},{"start":30761.096,"end":30781.372,"text":"農部有沒有統計我們農曆春節前本土豬肉的交易量交易產值是多少我想我們在農曆的過去我講過我先不講今年的以往過往的時候大概是在85塊的上下那從80到85之間一斤85塊對一公斤百公斤一公斤85塊一公斤85塊這裡是因為這個事件有沒有波動"},{"start":30786.209,"end":30811.456,"text":"我們在監測的他整個過程裡面吼春節就是2月2號到春節那個收市之前是平均是90.8元90.8元但是春節後以後他有不同的不同的因素讓他的價格現在是86平均是86作為農業部的部長你認為這一次西部特羅的事件從一開始發布到說毒豬肉啊什麼現在證明沒有根本不是系統性的問題"},{"start":30812.316,"end":30830.913,"text":"我們本土豬農因為我看到全國這個養豬協會潘理事長那邊有提到豬農有受損到底有沒有受損的數字我想受損的部分可能還要再去精算因為基本上從批發市場在春節前的價格是90.8元部長如果到現在還沒有精算的話農業部這樣不行喔"},{"start":30832.674,"end":30855.23,"text":"你懂我意思嗎?我知道我今天面對這個事情消費者我要保護是供應者就豬農攤販豬肉販傳統市場我都要保護是而有關豬肉這一塊我若是農家部我一定馬上統計今年的因為價格我不會認為是唯一的指標我把數量縮減價格就服了嘛我的意思說以往春節也許比方說一萬斤"},{"start":30856.391,"end":30869.699,"text":"今年有沒有變成9000斤5000斤然後呢因為這樣的價格或土宅量會被減少這是農業部的責任是你應該統計出來告訴我們說這個消息出來我們今年的本土豬"},{"start":30871.374,"end":30872.834,"text":"對,我們已經持續在跟那個租場的這些做一個統計"},{"start":30899.782,"end":30927.694,"text":"包括它的每一天的批發量大概是2.4萬到2.2萬之間那我們跟去年同期在比較去找出一個去年比較有沒有波動它的波動以價格來講反而比去年高一點但是不能這樣算因為還有成本的問題還有成本的問題還有成本的問題還有供應量的問題所以我剛才說我們現在還在做這樣的一個消息這一年來飼料漲價了不能用價格判斷影響你要算量"},{"start":30929.715,"end":30952.147,"text":"對你們量有沒有波動有沒有算出來對我們現在的量齁從去年大概2.4萬噸齁大概春節期間那我們今年的話大概是2.2萬噸齁要減才會兩千對但是他的每一頭豬的重量齁比去年還高所以整體的重量來講齁我們現在還在處理你這樣子的數據齁因為你在講他回格格齁簡單來說"},{"start":30954.431,"end":30968.698,"text":"一、因為他說單一重量加高所以投訴減少。 是。 重量也減少。那這到底是不是因為這個影響你們去統計。 對。 就是說價格的高低會跟供應量跟飼料成本有關係。 對。 但目前我從你剛才數據聽起來投訴的規價低齁台規價低。 對。 數量有減少。 對。"},{"start":30974.101,"end":30995.221,"text":"總供應的重量數從2.4萬噸降到2.2萬噸數量也有減少,那這個到底是什麼因素導致,我不枉家定論,榮業部應該要給答案。我最後再請教部長,院長如果知道的話就回答了,不知道的話,薛部長你比較先後。台中那一包肉如果現在是唯一的一包肉有西部特羅,"},{"start":30996.22,"end":31016.596,"text":"對。對。"},{"start":31016.736,"end":31039.739,"text":"我們所了解齁他他取樣的時候針對臺糖那一批履歷的那一批齁大概是兩包一包是梅花肉一包是養完還是只有那一包其他沒有OK齁這就其他沒有縱使在國軍供應站副時供應站就那一包肉有那拿回來之後是誰做檢驗的你們有掌握人嗎就裡面的"},{"start":31040.715,"end":31042.977,"text":"因為只有在一個實驗室裡面的一塊肉檢驗得到,所以我們一定要從"},{"start":31074.845,"end":31077.448,"text":"好,謝謝王委員的諮詢,謝謝陳建仁院長,謝謝接下來我們請登記第15號羅委員志強質詢請陳建仁院長麻煩請陳院長備詢"},{"start":31103.542,"end":31103.982,"text":"恭喜你當選理委。"},{"start":31112.628,"end":31133.173,"text":"今天這份報告的主題是民進黨執政8年的食安問題總檢討我看完11頁的報告做一點小小的總結你看認不認同大概意思是說民進黨政府已經改善食安食安的個案偶爾發生但系統性食安問題顯著減少這樣的認知有沒有問題沒有錯確實是這個主軸"},{"start":31136.534,"end":31144.419,"text":"院長是科學家嘛所以科學家講數據事實所以接下來針對過去8年的食安檢討我有幾個問題跟幾項數據來就教於院長首先我想問的第一個問題是"},{"start":31151.755,"end":31175.191,"text":"院長這份報告是八年食安總檢討那你可不可以給大家一個評價你會給你自己給民進黨政府這八年你評價會打幾分臺灣的食安問題呢從這個2016年開始因為在2016年以前有很多的這個系統性的事件那我們就開始了食安五環在中央跟地方的努力之下我覺得有進步相對於2016年以前有大幅度的進步"},{"start":31182.295,"end":31207.068,"text":"就是比201616年之前有大幅度進步這是您的結論那我想請教您第二個問題既然大幅度進步只有偶爾的單一食安個案發生那我想請教您知道二十一世紀兩千年之後二十三年內哪一年的食物中毒人數最多這個我沒有辦法再我告訴你2019年"},{"start":31210.34,"end":31212.85,"text":"食物中途的人數全國有6935人,你知道是誰執政嗎?"},{"start":31217.521,"end":31241.552,"text":"我委員抱歉,食物中毒的原因有很多。沒關係我知道你要跟食安沒有關係,如果食物中毒都跟食安沒有關係讓社會公平。不完全是跟食安有關係。謝謝你承認食安有關係,那你還說你們做得很好。因為食物中毒2019年就民進黨執政,食物中毒人數是歷史的新高,2000年以後。那我就要問您,"},{"start":31243.802,"end":31272.1,"text":"委員這個數字我要再查一下沒關係你可以去查中華民國統計資訊網如果你不相信這個單位的話把它廢掉也可以那接下來我想請教你第三個問題你一直強調蔡政府的食安五環全面加強食安管理我剛剛只講一個年也不公平嘛對不對也許那一年特殊事件你特別高但也許蔡英文八年其實還是比較少啊有沒有可能"},{"start":31274.175,"end":31282.637,"text":"我覺得用食品中毒人數來反映食安不是正確的數字。這個食品中毒人數沒關係你如果這麼執著這件事情你另外再找一天做食品中毒的專案報告還不可以?"},{"start":31297.307,"end":31326.29,"text":"施品中毒的狀況報告施品中毒重不重要吃下去中毒欸你今天西部特羅我們是講致癌可能性吃下去是中毒欸舉親民眾你總懂吧你現在西部特羅這個案子以0.002篇我問你下一個數字好不好下一個數字把政府實習施品中毒的人數多還是蔡政府我告訴你你答不出來我可以理解"},{"start":31328.257,"end":31336.122,"text":"從2008到2015年馬英九政府平均是5074位蔡英文2016到2022平均是5469位數學總統吧院長哪一個數字高"},{"start":31344.907,"end":31365.694,"text":"我剛才就跟你講過沒關係啦我直接告訴你蔡英文的數字就是高啦你如果還要再針對食品中毒的有什麼見解的話我跟你講你在施政報告在你的專案報告都可以講那我就要問各位食品中毒跟致癌物質都是食安問題啊不是嗎"},{"start":31367.398,"end":31374.699,"text":"我問你第四個問題食品中毒人數少的馬政府食安事件叫系統性你食品中毒人數多的蔡政府食安問題叫個案性"},{"start":31396.867,"end":31407.749,"text":"我問你第五個問題我問你第五個問題我問你第五個問題我問你第五個問題請問蔡政府加強稽查檢驗部分大幅提高食品的抽驗件數這是你報告裡面強調的嘛 對不對那我想請問你食品查驗件數馬政府時候多還是蔡政府時候多"},{"start":31426.369,"end":31432.593,"text":"大幅增加喔!大幅增加我告訴你馬政府2008到2015年平均每年723782件蔡英文政府2016年到2022年平均每年511333件72萬跟51萬誰多?"},{"start":31449.67,"end":31471.236,"text":"你現在用的技術不一樣而且呢這個食品安全我不是講total欸食品安全的東西好啦你要繼續跟我講食品中毒不重要我也沒關係啦我接受啦我想請教院長齁食品衛生查驗的不合格率齁逐年下降嘛對不對"},{"start":31472.641,"end":31475.143,"text":"下降了0.68啦但是下降0.68的低數值前朝下降1.13也有功勞吧"},{"start":31496.857,"end":31519.895,"text":"我想齁,你現在舉的這個數字都不是... 院長,你是科學家,給點公道的評價也不會傷你的這個高度啦。沒關係,我都要評價,因為你要...你要去...你要去蔣瑪聖保障你要評價他,給他公道一點難啦,沒關係。這個要看他的範圍有多少有多少...2019年4、2、2000年以後,食品中毒人數最多是民進黨執政。"},{"start":31521.876,"end":31533.468,"text":"馬政府平均每年食品中毒人數比蔡英文政府要少馬政府每年平均查驗食品安全件數是70多萬件比民進黨50幾萬件高你現在跟我講"},{"start":31537.472,"end":31544.917,"text":"你不給馬英九政府一點公道的評價,你要說這個政府做的比你爛。沒關係,我問你下一個問題。您的報告當中說馬英九政府有7次系統性施安問題,對不對?"},{"start":31555.524,"end":31558.986,"text":"我剛剛的問題是什麼?我剛剛的問題是你的報告裡面說嘛政府系統性食安問題有幾件?七件啊?一幾件?兩件啊?來"},{"start":31579.79,"end":31597.062,"text":"2016.2016年6月販賣機奶茶生菌素超標是系統性還是個案?個案啦我知道你啦也沒放在系統性嘛2016年9月調和酒冒充釀製酒是系統還是個案?個案啦你沒有放在你的報告啦"},{"start":31598.443,"end":31613.196,"text":"2016 2016年包括過期的原料製成醬料是系統還是個案?個案啦你沒有放在你的報告啦2016年過期冷凍沒產品是系統還是個案?個案啦"},{"start":31614.057,"end":31625.587,"text":"因為你對食品安全的系統性問題你不懂啊。系統跟個案都有你定義啦你科學家嘛。沒有關係我告訴各位很簡單下一個政府上來喔所有的都認為是個案系統性就是0了沒關係你要再繼續講齁來"},{"start":31639.397,"end":31643.119,"text":"我想請問院長,國內的豬農根據動物藥品管理法,我們的西部特羅檢出的標準是什麼?西部特羅零檢出啊!非常好!"},{"start":31663.456,"end":31671.023,"text":"今天一整天我看你跟徐曉新很熱鬧的交鋒你葉秀很熱鬧的交鋒重點都是一個"},{"start":31672.432,"end":31687.518,"text":"你就認為台中市政府查出了今天非零檢出的西部特羅不該那麼快公佈嗎?因為不科學嘛!你講的嘛!我很認真聽喔!一整個投資的檢體喔!檢驗出來的結果會相重複啦!可以整給你重複講這些大家都聽到了!"},{"start":31696.002,"end":31696.962,"text":"西伯特就是檢出啦"},{"start":31711.411,"end":31714.233,"text":"施安法第5條第一項各主管機關依科學實證建立食品衛生安全監測體系,監測發現有危害食品衛生安全"},{"start":31732.469,"end":31754.597,"text":"之餘的事件發生時應主動查驗並發佈預警或採行必要管理措施。前項主動查驗、發佈預警或採行必要管理措施,包含主管機關應抽樣檢驗、追查來源、產品流向、公佈檢驗結果跟揭露資訊並令食品業者自主檢驗。"},{"start":31756.999,"end":31777.899,"text":"請問食安法第五條有哪一個跟你講說因為驗出來的數值比較低?有哪一個正確可以公佈嗎?一打行政檢驗是否正確一打行政院長來來來倒車一下倒車一下不要擔心啦你科學家"},{"start":31778.439,"end":31790.808,"text":"我沒有否定你的科學論據喔好沒有錯那我問你我跟你講這個法規裡面是不是要正確的檢查才能夠公佈院長你說不是的話那我就沒話講了沒關係正確的檢查才能公佈你寫進條文啊"},{"start":31795.171,"end":31795.552,"text":"委員會報告時間暫停"},{"start":31813.604,"end":31841.968,"text":"今天是我們專案的報告再一次第三次呼籲拜託委員跟官員之間能夠互相尊重共同遵守相關質詢規定時間繼續委員我只是想跟你講當一個實驗室你的法規裡面要公布很重要的一件事情你就是說你尊重我科學嘛那我對說科學的情況就是你檢驗出來是正確的數字才能公布今天那些論點你已經講了15遍了啦"},{"start":31842.148,"end":31845.752,"text":"議員長,我們韓院長講完話我就很尊重你,但是你讓我問問題嘛,只剩2分鐘了,好不好?"},{"start":31863.32,"end":31864.001,"text":"我的意思是說"},{"start":31893.218,"end":31919.689,"text":"院長,食藥署有沒有去檢驗?食藥署有沒有檢驗嗎?告訴我嘛。我們查了同批的結果都沒有檢驗。第二個,你如果真的認為數值太低,就不能立刻公佈寫到法律裡面嘛。公務員依法行政你沒有明確性的法律指導。你想要怎麼做?我沒有否定你的科學觀喔。我講的是依法行政喔。第二個,"},{"start":31920.809,"end":31946.325,"text":"你要跟我講說你檢驗一包不夠,你要平行再去檢驗其他包,這不是你的論點。法律有寫嗎?實案法第五條,講給我聽哪邊講的?你確認你的檢驗是正確的。什麼叫確認?你把法律條文寫清楚,確認兩個字。確認就是徵叫台中市前線機關,你要自己去負責裁量啊。可是你以前授請書規定就是零檢出啊。"},{"start":31947.432,"end":31951.555,"text":"中央地方同時復檢就看結果是否一致,如果不一致就找出原因,為何同樣的樣本有不同檢測結果。"},{"start":31968.405,"end":31983.282,"text":"如果臺中食安處跟食藥署復檢結果都是陽性,這就排除實驗室問題需進一步溯源,包括檢驗樣本從哪裡來重新檢查飼養過程,屠宰與污染問題。"},{"start":31986.316,"end":31998.529,"text":"這個結論你認不認同啊?我想這個實驗室的問題有兩個component一個是實驗室本身的標準作業流程第二個我只問你認不認同嘛yes no嘛"},{"start":32000.477,"end":32008.825,"text":"這是薛瑞元講的拜託你薛瑞元講的排除實驗室問題因為你偉大的試驗室最科學的試驗室也驗出來了第二個就是這個操作的過程謝謝你"},{"start":32026.862,"end":32049.402,"text":"謝謝羅文志強的質詢。也非常感謝我們陳院長特別跟院會報告今天排定的質詢的委員均與質詢完畢。再次感謝陳院長及政府院長及相關部會首長的列席答詢。也特別感謝衛福部的薛部長今天報病來院裡。非常感謝。那做以下的決定。"},{"start":32051.141,"end":32077.818,"text":"一、將各委員翻譯記錄及書面質詢含送行政院。請就未答覆部分予以書面答覆。二、以提出之書面質詢,尚未登載公報者一律補刊。二月27日星期二上午9時繼續開會,進行施政方針及施政報告之質詢。現在休息。謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"149142","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149142","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb6fc45cd9bf39baab9b347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a647d3cba7da10d7445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"17:08:44 - 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art":20.58,"end":41.125,"text":"今天這份報告的主題是民進黨執政8年的食安問題總檢討我看完11頁的報告做一點小小的總結你看認不認同大概意思是說民進黨政府已經改善食安食安的個案偶爾發生但系統性食安問題顯著減少這樣的認知有沒有問題沒有錯確實是這個主軸"},{"start":44.326,"end":44.806,"text":"首先我想問的第一個問題是"},{"start":59.707,"end":83.145,"text":"院長這份報告是八年食安總檢討那你可不可以給大家一個評價你會給你自己給民進黨政府這八年你評價會打幾分臺灣的食安問題呢從這個2016年開始因為在2016年以前有很多的這個系統性的事件那我們就開始了食安五環在中央跟地方的努力之下我覺得有進步相對於2016年以前有大幅度的進步"},{"start":90.25,"end":115.02,"text":"就是比2016年之前有大幅度進步這是您的結論那我想請教您第二個問題既然大幅度進步只有偶爾的單一食安個案發生那我想請教您知道二十一世紀兩千年之後二十三年內哪一年的食物中毒人數最多這個我沒有辦法再我告訴你2019年"},{"start":117.671,"end":118.634,"text":"實務重圖的人數全國有6935人你知道是誰執政嗎?"},{"start":125.473,"end":149.522,"text":"我委員抱歉,食物中毒的原因有很多,但說食安沒有關係,如果食物中毒都跟食安沒有關係,那社會公平嗎?謝謝你老,謝謝你承認食安有關係,那你還說你們做得很好。因為食物中毒2019年就民進黨執政,食物中毒人數是歷史的新高,2000年以後。那我就要問您,"},{"start":151.738,"end":180.058,"text":"委員這個數字我要再查一下沒關係你可以去查中華民國統計資訊網如果你不相信這個單位的話把它廢掉也可以那接下來我想請教你第三個問題你一直強調蔡政府的食安五環全面加強食安管理我剛剛只講一個年也不公平嘛對不對也許那一年特殊事件也特別高但也許蔡英文八年其實還是比較少啊有沒有可能"},{"start":182.527,"end":189.989,"text":"我覺得用食品中毒人數來反映食安不是正確的數字本來就不是嘛這個食品中毒的人數"},{"start":205.259,"end":234.217,"text":"施品中毒的狀況報告施品中毒重不重要吃下去中毒欸你今天西部特羅我們是講致癌可能性吃下去是中毒欸舉親民眾你總懂吧你現在西部特羅這個案子以0.002篇我問你下一個數字好不好下一個數字把政府實習施品中毒的人數多還是蔡政府我告訴你你答不出來我可以理解"},{"start":236.209,"end":244.074,"text":"從2008到2015年馬英九政府平均是5074位。蔡英文2016到2022平均是5469位。數學總統吧院長哪一個數字高?"},{"start":252.859,"end":273.662,"text":"我剛才就跟你講過沒關係啦我直接告訴你蔡英文的數字就是高啦你如果還要再針對食品中毒的有什麼見解的話我跟你講你在施政報告在你的專案報告都可以講那我就要問各位食品中毒跟致癌物質都是食安問題啊不是嗎"},{"start":275.35,"end":282.653,"text":"我問你第四個問題食品中毒人數少的馬政府食安事件叫系統性你食品中毒人數多的蔡政府食安問題叫個案性"},{"start":304.819,"end":315.682,"text":"我問你第五個問題我問你第五個問題我問你第五個問題我問你第五個問題請問蔡政府加強稽查檢驗部分大幅提高食品的抽驗件數這是你報告裡面強調的嘛 對不對那我想請問你食品查驗件數馬政府時候多還是蔡政府時候多"},{"start":334.141,"end":340.525,"text":"我告訴你馬政府2008到2015年平均每年723782件蔡英文政府2016年到2022年平均每年511333件72萬跟51萬誰多"},{"start":357.622,"end":379.188,"text":"你現在用的激素不一樣而且呢這個食品安全我不是講total欸食品安全的東西好啦你要繼續跟我講食品中毒不重要我也沒關係啦我接受啦我想請教院長齁食品衛生查驗的不合格率齁逐年下降嘛對不對"},{"start":381.074,"end":403.475,"text":"你們任內也在下降,下降多少?八年任內你知道下降多少嗎?我肯定你啦,下降啦,對不對?我肯定啊。我肯定,不要擔心嘛,我肯定你合格率下降。下降了0.68啦,但是下降0.68的低數值,前朝下降1.13,也有功勞吧?"},{"start":404.81,"end":420.299,"text":"我想齁,你現在舉的這個數字都不是... 院長,你是科學家,給點公道的評價也不會傷你的這個高度啦。沒關係,我都要評價,因為你要...你要去講馬聖保障你要評價他,給他公道一點難啦,沒關係。 2019年4、2、2000年以後,食品中毒人數最多是民進黨執政。"},{"start":429.825,"end":444.141,"text":"馬政府平均每年食品中毒人數比蔡英文政府要少馬政府每年平均查驗食品安全件數是70多萬件比民進黨的50幾萬件高你現在跟我講"},{"start":445.442,"end":453.388,"text":"你不給馬英九政府一點公道的評價,你要說這個政府做的比你爛。沒關係,我問你下一個問題。您的報告當中說馬英九政府有7次系統性事案的問題,對不對?"},{"start":463.476,"end":466.678,"text":"我剛剛的問題是什麼?我剛剛的問題是你的報告裡面說嘛政府系統性食安問題有幾件?幾件啊?一幾件?兩件啊?來"},{"start":487.743,"end":505.015,"text":"2016.2016年6月販賣機奶茶生菌素超標是系統性還是個案?個案啦我知道你啦也沒放在系統性嘛2016年9月調和酒冒充釀製酒是系統還是個案?個案啦你沒有放在你的報告啦"},{"start":506.396,"end":515.562,"text":"2016 2016年包括過期的原料製成醬料是系統還是個案?個案啦你沒有放在你的報告啦2016年過期冷凍沒產品是系統還是個案?個案啦"},{"start":522.006,"end":541.805,"text":"因為你對食品安全的系統性問題你不懂啊。系統跟個案都有你定義啦,你科學家嘛。沒有沒有沒有,這食品安全的系統性,這是有一定的規則,是從上、中、下由政府講的。所有的都認為是個案,系統性就是零啦。沒關係,你要再繼續講齁,來。你這樣子是故意的去"},{"start":547.352,"end":550.954,"text":"我想請問院長,國內的豬農根據動物藥品管理法,我們的西部特羅檢出的標準是什麼?西部特羅零檢出啊。非常好。"},{"start":571.408,"end":578.973,"text":"今天一整天我看你跟徐曉新很熱鬧的交鋒你夜秀很熱鬧的交鋒重點都是一個"},{"start":580.424,"end":595.471,"text":"你就認為台中市政府查出了今天非零檢出的西部特羅不該那麼快公佈嗎?因為不科學嘛!你講的嘛!我很認真聽喔!一整個檢體喔!檢驗出來的結果會相重複啦!重複講這些大家都聽到了!"},{"start":603.955,"end":604.917,"text":"西伯特就是檢出啦。"},{"start":619.363,"end":622.185,"text":"施安法第5條第一項各主管機關依科學實證建立食品衛生安全監測體系,監測發現有危害食品衛生安全"},{"start":640.419,"end":662.547,"text":"之餘的事件發生時應主動查驗並發布預警或採行必要管理措施。前項主動查驗、發布預警或採行必要管理措施包含主管機關應抽樣檢驗、追查來源、產品流向、公佈檢驗結果跟揭露資訊並令食品業者自主檢驗。"},{"start":664.969,"end":675.378,"text":"請問食安法第五條有哪一個跟你講說因為驗出來的數值比較低有哪一個一法選在檢驗是否正確一法行政院長來來來倒車一下倒車一下不要擔心啦你科學家"},{"start":686.408,"end":702.283,"text":"我沒有否定你的科學論據喔好沒有錯那我問你我跟你談一談法律問題院長我跟你講這個法規裡面是不是要正確的檢查才能夠公布院長你說不是的話那我就沒話講了沒關係檢查不正確也要公布正確的檢查才能公布你寫進條文啊"},{"start":703.104,"end":710.21,"text":"今天數值偏低你跟我講你剛剛今天一整天都在講這個數值偏低檢驗22次有誤差你要去檢驗別的東西你才可以公佈這不是你今天論點嗎?"},{"start":721.557,"end":748.279,"text":"今天是我們專案的報告再一次第三次呼籲拜託委員跟官員之間能夠互相尊重那共同遵守相關質詢規定時間繼續委員我只是想跟你講當一個實驗室你的法規裡面要公布很重要的一件事情你就是說你尊重我科學嘛那我對說科學的情況就是你檢驗出來是正確的數字才能公布今天那些論點你已經講了15遍了啦"},{"start":750.1,"end":753.804,"text":"院長,我們韓院長講完話我就很尊重你啊,但是你讓我問問題嘛,只剩2分鐘了好不好?好,你說"},{"start":771.052,"end":800.151,"text":"如果你的所有的科學主張要建一你今天如果檢驗數值即便是有檢出法律規定0檢出你仍然有檢出但有檢出的數值太低你不可以立刻公佈寫在食安法第五條可不可以那個檢出是要正確的檢出你的正確你的食安法一段還沒開你現在都講他不正確我只問食藥署有沒有去檢驗我的意思是說"},{"start":801.171,"end":827.628,"text":"院長,食藥署有沒有去檢驗?食藥署有沒有檢驗嗎?告訴我嘛。我們查了同批的結果都沒有檢驗。第二個,你如果真的認為數值太低,就不能立刻公佈寫到法律裡面嘛。公務員依法行政你沒有明確性的法律指導,你想要怎麼做?我沒有否定你的科學觀喔。我講的是依法行政喔。第二個,"},{"start":828.749,"end":854.274,"text":"你要跟我講說,你檢驗一包不夠,你要平行再去檢驗其他包,這不能提的論點。法律有寫嗎?實案法第五條,講給我聽哪邊講的?你確認你的檢驗是正確。怎麼叫確認,你把法律條文寫清楚,確認兩字。確認就是真叫台中市前線機關,你要自己去負責裁量啊。可是你以前授請書規定就是零檢出啊。"},{"start":855.624,"end":860.473,"text":"規定理解說怎麼辦呢來沒關係啦我也沒時間了啦我最後講一個結論啦我聽你認不認同啦來我講一個結論你聽一下啦齁"},{"start":867.182,"end":891.238,"text":"中央地方同時復檢就看結果是否一致。如果不一致就找出原因為何同樣的樣本有不同檢測結果。如果台中食安處跟食藥署復檢結果都是陽性這就排除實驗室問題去進一步溯源。包括檢驗樣本從哪裡來重新檢查飼養過程屠宰與污染問題。"},{"start":894.269,"end":906.484,"text":"這個結論你認不認同啊?我想這個實驗室的問題有兩個component一個是實驗室本身的標準作業流程第二個我只問你認不認同嘛yes no嘛"},{"start":908.432,"end":933.453,"text":"這是薛瑞元講的,拜託你,薛瑞元講的排除實驗室問題,因為你偉大的試驗室,最科學的試驗室也驗出來了實驗方法。第二個就是這個操作的過程,謝謝你。"},{"start":934.814,"end":962.855,"text":"謝謝羅委員智強的質詢。也非常感謝我們陳院長特別跟院會報告今天排定的質詢的委員均與質詢完畢。再次感謝陳院長及政府院長及相關部會首長的列席答詢。也特別感謝衛福部的薛部長今天報病來院裡。非常感謝。那要做以下的決定。一、將各委員發言紀錄及書面質詢含送行動。"}]}},{"id":"149141","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149141","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb6478e54e862820215b347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6821df7bc466bea525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"16:52:35 - 17:08:36","影片長度":"00:16:01","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":961,"end_time":"2024-02-23T17:08:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T16:52:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1096,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（16時52分）謝謝院長，麻煩陳建仁院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：王委員午安。"],["王委員定宇：院長，辛苦了。"],["陳院長建仁：不會。"],["王委員定宇：我想食安應該是一個科學問題。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["王委員定宇：但食安如果用太多的政治口水，它會變心理的恐慌問題。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以我們政府面對食安有點像衛生紙，衛生紙夠不夠，它是經濟問題，大家都在搶衛生紙，心理的恐慌反而也會造就問題，所以我儘量不用政治方面來討論下列的事情。我先請教一個基本的事情，當我們發現有食安威脅的時候，我們發布，就是公布於眾的標準是什麼？因為我們都希望這個東西有問題，要趕快讓民眾知道，愈快愈好，但是要求正確，因為它一旦不正確，你發布了就會從科學問題變心理問題，你知道我的意思嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我知道。"],["王委員定宇：它是兩面性。"],["陳院長建仁：引起恐慌。"],["王委員定宇：對，又要快、又要準，所以我第一個請教就是發現食安威脅的時候，發布的標準我們現在有沒有一個一定的標準？"],["陳院長建仁：我們……"],["主席：王委員定宇，容許我打斷，我們讓薛部長坐著，好不好？因為薛部長身體真的……"],["陳院長建仁：沒關係，沒關係。"],["主席：沒關係啦！我擔心……"],["王委員定宇：兩位都坐著我都可以接受。"],["主席：都坐著好了，因為薛部長……"],["王委員定宇：可是我的時間還是在照跑。"],["陳院長建仁：他嗓子啞了。"],["主席：因為他……"],["王委員定宇：院長，我尊重你的裁示……"],["主席：時間暫停、時間暫停……"],["王委員定宇：但是時間還給我照跑，這樣不好啦！"],["主席：薛部長，你請坐。坐啦！沒關係！因為我感覺你真的很不舒服，好不好？院長，你也請坐一下，沒關係。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有關係，我可以……"],["主席：反正內容一樣，好，時間請繼續。"],["王委員定宇：我沒有請部長起來，因為我聽那個聲音怪怪的。","所以我們現在有一個原則就是臺灣已經是一個很進步的科學國家，多數的孩子經過高中也有基本的、科學的大概認知都有，所以一個食安問題，到底在什麼標準下該公布，我們應該有一個標準，現在標準是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：還是在地方政府做第一線。"],["王委員定宇：地方政府那個是行政程序，我講的是標準。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是……"],["王委員定宇：實驗室做出什麼結果，在什麼狀態下要公布於眾？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前並沒有一個特定的標準，所以還是要看這個物質風險。"],["王委員定宇：部長，你的喉嚨休息一下。第一個問題，我們現在面對又要快、又要準，可是我們實驗室並沒有一套標準，坦白講，檢驗的東西不一樣，像是孔雀綠什麼的……"],["陳院長建仁：對啦，剛才他講的……"],["王委員定宇：它就會有不一樣的指數嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以很難針對這麼多的品項訂出一個唯一的標準，可能可以訂百分比或ppb，這是第一個本席具體的建議，就是什麼時候要公布，但這是單一數值哦！","我下一個問題是，縱使我們在實驗室，我在寫論文，控制組、對照組，會不會這一個品項、這一個單品所驗出來的數值可以得到諾貝爾獎，這個數據嚇死人了，那我就公布？"],["陳院長建仁：當然不行，要確認。"],["王委員定宇：是不可以，這是科學問題，這不是政治問題。我現在檢驗一個東西，它的數據很驚人，我不會急著公布在論文上，何況會引起大眾恐慌的數據，我下一步應該怎麼做？應該在同類型或同批次的東西再找一些來抽，如果都是這樣，我可能發現新物種、可能發現新東西；但如果只有這個單一品項數據異常，可是同一批次、同一物種都跟它不一樣，我現在講的是實驗室，那我就開始要研究，到底是單向有病變，還是我的實驗室流程有謬誤，有的還會用方法讓結果符合理論，那是不可取啦。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以這個才是科學精神嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員定宇：我接下來另外要問一個也是基本的科學，單一一個東西，這次這一塊肉驗了22次，我一直驗、一直驗，驗出這一塊肉有西布特羅，送到食藥署複驗有西布特羅有什麼稀罕？"],["陳院長建仁：對啊。"],["王委員定宇：你知道意思嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：本來就有啊！"],["王委員定宇：我拿一塊肉，原來已經有被污染了，再拿到食藥署複驗，它還是那一塊肉，沒有來到同批次的對照。我要問的是，我看報載，現在我要重新證實，這一塊肉抽了22次，抽的方法有沒有一樣？部位有沒有一樣？"],["陳院長建仁：這一塊肉實際上是分兩次，因為這個肉類的檢驗拿了檢體，切完以後，再把它……"],["王委員定宇：要切。"],["陳院長建仁：就把它打碎，然後再去做檢驗，檢驗的話，我印象中它在22次裡面，其實分兩次在做，這兩次做的時候，為什麼它自己會有遲疑呢？就是一次做出來的差異太大了，差十幾倍嘛，所以它就……"],["王委員定宇：我們在實驗室如果同一個物件……"],["陳院長建仁：應該是一樣的。"],["王委員定宇：同一個object，如果落差超過35%，這個數據我可不可以寫在論文裡面？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這是不正確的。"],["王委員定宇：這是不能公布的，這是有問題的嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：對，不正確的數值。"],["王委員定宇：我們現在講到這裡，我並沒有特別去講是地方的問題、中央的問題，它是一個科學驗證的問題。如果食藥署同一塊肉驗了22次，數據落差超過35%，前後數據高達十幾倍不一樣，作為一個科學實驗人員，你馬上腦袋要想的是，這個數據有問題，我不能馬上公布出去。"],["陳院長建仁：對，免得引起恐慌。"],["王委員定宇：因為馬上公布出去，它會從科學問題變心理恐慌問題。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我完全同意。"],["王委員定宇：這件事情是這個樣子嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員定宇：那一塊肉、那一包肉，就只有那一包，對，它確實驗出西布特羅，為什麼有？我們待會再研究，它驗出之後，同一包肉打碎了兩次，驗了22次，落差十多倍，單一數據的落差超過35%，這不是民進黨說了算，也不是國民黨說了算，不是藍綠白的問題，可以去問全臺灣所有實驗室，不管是臺大、成大，任何實驗室，這樣的數據能不能拿來當論文的數據，何況是拿來公布於眾？"],["陳院長建仁：所以是需要再進一步地……"],["王委員定宇：所以我第二個問題是怎麼樣的數據可以公布？除了數值的ppb以外，這個數據的流程、對照組、控制組、橫向的檢驗，到怎麼樣的狀況，我要最快速度、最正確的時候，有驗出了，這個有威脅，公布於眾，告訴大家不要吃、不要用，這個才對嘛。","就這個階段的質詢到目前為止，這一次數據的第一時間公布有沒有符合科學精神？"],["陳院長建仁：因為它的差距很大，然後都沒有再double check，所以我們剛才才講說，怎麼樣找到正確的數字再公布，因為它本身就有很大的range，那它到底去挑哪一個數字？就隨著高興挑也不正確，所以在當時應該是再做另外一個……"],["王委員定宇：應該要同一批肉、同一頭豬……"],["陳院長建仁：再來做一次……"],["王委員定宇：同一批產出來的肉，其他部位抽一抽看有沒有，才來決定。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員定宇：到底是系統性問題要公布於眾，如果如同盧秀燕市長所說的是個案問題，你公布於眾會產生什麼問題？我待會先……農業部長有來嘛，陳駿季代部長先上來，我把問題繼續往下推，就是說那一包肉按照科學的原則，它的數據這樣的公布到底是科學決定還是政治決定？我個人打個問號，我也不讓院長回答，我認為那個決定在科學的公布上其實是有一定的問題。","我有關院長跟部長最後一個問題要問的是，毒澱粉之後，我們臺南統一企業弄了一個食安辦公室，它有經過國際認證嘛，然後另外SGS是民間的，它的食品實驗室也經過國際認證嘛，另外我們中央單位有一個……"],["陳院長建仁：食藥署……"],["王委員定宇：畜產社。"],["陳院長建仁：喔……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，畜產會……"],["王委員定宇：那個也經過國際認證嘛。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["王委員定宇：這3個國際認證然後加上我們地方政府，不管國民黨執政、民進黨執政的地方政府的實驗室抽驗，從所有的肉品、從豬的血液到毛髮、到同批次的產品抽驗到現在，萊克多巴胺跟西布特羅有沒有驗出？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["王委員定宇：零，所以我們幾乎可以斷定就只有臺中市食安處的那一包肉有驗出來了，而且經過中央食藥署複驗，它確實有嘛，就只有那一包肉，所以盧秀燕市長其實定義得不錯，他說這是個案，我個人對於過年前他講這是個案，我表示佩服，因為他講個案至少把衝擊降低一點、對很多人減少影響，薛部長你先回去休息啦。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["王委員定宇：好的，那個公布的過程我們希望亡羊補牢，就是建構發布的標準，特別是經常食用的米、麵、澱粉等等它要多少ppb，然後實驗流程要經過什麼樣的程序，然後確認為系統性問題才應該公布於眾，否則食安會從科學問題因為隨意的違反科學準則去公布，它從科學問題變成心理恐慌問題，那傷害的人就很多了。"],["陳院長建仁：對，確實。"],["王委員定宇：如果它真的有毒，該公布就公布、該被傷害就被傷害，這責無旁貸，可是如果它根本不是系統性問題，只是在實驗室你抽驗同一塊肉，22次結果不一樣，落差高達35%以上，任何學過基礎生物實驗的人都知道，這要再看一下。"],["陳院長建仁：沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：公布之後就產生什麼問題呢？我要請教農業部，農業部有沒有統計我們農曆春節前本土豬肉的交易量、交易產值是多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們在農曆的……"],["王委員定宇：過去、我講過去，我先不講今年的，以往。"],["陳代理部長駿季：過往的時候大概是在85塊的上下，從80到85之間。"],["王委員定宇：1斤85塊嘛。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，1公斤85塊。"],["陳院長建仁：1公斤。"],["王委員定宇：1公斤85塊，這一次因為這個事件有沒有波動？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們在監測它的整個過程裡面，2月2號到春節收市之前平均是90.8元，但是春節以後它有不同的因素讓它的價格現在平均是86。"],["王委員定宇：作為農業部的部長，你認為這一次西布特羅的事件，從一開始發布到說毒豬肉等等，現在證明沒有、根本不是系統性的問題，我們本土豬農……因為我看到全國養豬協會潘理事長那邊提到豬農有受損，到底有沒有受損的數字？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想受損的部分可能還要再去精算，因為基本上從批發市場在春節前的價格是90.8元……"],["王委員定宇：部長，如果到現在還沒有精算的話，農業部這樣不行喔，你懂我意思嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道。"],["王委員定宇：我今天面對這個事情，消費者我要保護，供應者就是豬農、攤販、豬肉販、傳統市場，我都要保護。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["王委員定宇：而有關豬肉這一塊，我如果是農業部我一定馬上統計今年的……因為價格我不會認為是唯一的指標，我把數量縮減、價格就浮了嘛，我的意思是說，以往春節也許比方說1萬斤，今年有沒有變成9,000斤、5,000斤？然後因為這樣的價格或屠宰量會不會減少？這是農業部的責任！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["王委員定宇：你一定要統計出來告訴大家，這個消息出來，我們今年的本土豬量就壓低了，搞不好很多就變原料，因為怕賣不出去，它減少出豬，但畜牧業跟工業不一樣，不是你今天不殺，那個豬就不會長大，它還是會繼續吃飼料、越長越大。","所以有關這個訊息對於我們畜牧業有沒有造成傷害影響，你今天沒有數據，也不能提供錯誤的，你們要儘快統計給我們知道。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們已經持續在跟豬場這邊做一個統計，包括它每一天的批發量……"],["王委員定宇：有數字出來了嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：大概是2.4萬到2.2萬之間，我們跟去年同期在比較，去找出一個……"],["王委員定宇：跟去年比較有沒有波動？"],["陳代理部長駿季：它的波動以價格來講反而比去年高一點，但是不能這樣算，因為還有成本的問題……"],["王委員定宇：不能這樣講，供應量……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，還有成本的問題……"],["王委員定宇：供應量會影響價格嘛？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，還有成本的問題，還有供應量的問題，所以我剛才說我們現在還在做這樣的蒐集……"],["王委員定宇：這一年來飼料漲價了，你不能用價格判斷影響……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，不能用價格比，對，不能用這樣比……"],["王委員定宇：你們要算量。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["王委員定宇：你們量有沒有波動？有沒有算出來？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們現在的量從去年的春節期間大概2.4萬噸，我們今年的話大概是2.2萬噸。"],["王委員定宇：減差不多2,000……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，但是它每一頭豬的重量比去年還高，所以以整體的重量來講，我們現在還在……"],["王委員定宇：你這樣數據講得亂糟糟，簡單來說，第一，因為他們說單一重量加高，所以頭數減少，重量也減少，那這到底是不是因為這個所影響，你們要去統計，就是說價格的高低會跟供應量跟飼料成本有關係，但目前我從你剛才的數據聽起來，宰殺的頭數低，數量有減少，然後總供應的重量數從2.4萬噸降到2.2萬噸，數量也有減少，這個到底是什麼因素導致的，我不妄加定論，農業部應該要給答案。","我最後再請教部長，如果院長知道的話就回答，不知道的話薛部長你就比較辛苦一點啦！臺中那一包肉如果現在是唯一一包有西布特羅的肉，它到底是從哪裡取回實驗室的？一般都去市場取樣嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：它是在臺中的一個國軍福利社……"],["陳代理部長駿季：國軍的副食供應中心。"],["王委員定宇：副食供應商抽到的？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員定宇：那一個供應商其他的肉你們有沒有去驗過？國軍很重要耶！"],["陳院長建仁：現在……"],["陳代理部長駿季：據我們所瞭解，它取樣的時候針對有台糖履歷的那一批大概是兩包，一包是梅花肉，一包是……"],["王委員定宇：驗完還是只有那一包？其他沒有？"],["陳代理部長駿季：只有那一包，沒有。"],["王委員定宇：OK，就其他沒有，縱使在國軍副食供應站就那一包肉有？"],["陳代理部長駿季：它只取那一包，對。"],["王委員定宇：那拿回來之後是誰做檢驗的，你們有掌握人嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：就裡面的……"],["王委員定宇：就實驗人員嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員定宇：它的作業流程要檢驗出來，因為我現在只剩9秒鐘，院長你是中研院的科學家，你判斷到現在可不可以用一句話說這到底怎麼回事？"],["陳院長建仁：我想因為只有在一個實驗室裡面的一塊肉檢驗的到，所以我們一定要從這個實驗的流程來看這個是不是有問題。"],["王委員定宇：所以應該是要實驗流程上來解釋了。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["王委員定宇：它也許不應該叫食安問題，它應該是實驗室流程檢討問題，也符合盧秀燕市長所說的，是個案問題。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝院長、謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝王委員定宇的質詢，謝謝陳建仁院長，謝謝。","接下來我們請登記第15號羅委員智強質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","李坤城","洪孟楷","洪申翰","廖偉翔","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳沛憶","王育敏","何欣純","李彥秀","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009","1130401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「民進黨政府執政八年臺灣食安問題總檢討」專案報告並備質詢─ 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check所以我們剛才才講說怎麼樣找到正確的數字再公布那因為他本身就有很大的range那他到底去挑哪一個數字那就高興隨著高興挑也不正確所以在當時應該是在做另外一個應該要同一批肉同一頭豬同一雞產出來肉其他部位抽一抽看有沒有才來決定"},{"start":462.597,"end":490.462,"text":"對到底是系統性問題要公佈於眾如果如同盧秀燕市長所說的是個案問題你公佈於眾會產生什麼問題我待會先農業部長有來嗎那個陳俊基代部長先上來我把問題繼續往下推就是說那一包肉按照科學的原則他的數據這樣的公佈到底是科學決定還是政治決定"},{"start":492.244,"end":514.13,"text":"我個人打個問號我也不讓院長回答我認為那個決定在科學的公佈上其實是有一定的問題我有關院長跟這個部長最後一個問題要問的是目前經過其實那是毒澱粉之後我們台南統一企業弄了一個食安辦公室他有經過國際認證嗎"},{"start":516.141,"end":542.123,"text":"然後另外SGS是民間的他的食品實驗室也經過國際認證嘛另外我們的這個我們中央單位有一個續產社那個也經過國際認證嘛這三個國際認證然後加上我們地方政府不管國民黨執政民進黨執政的地方政府的實驗室抽驗從所有的肉品"},{"start":543.411,"end":568.003,"text":"從豬的血液到毛髮到同批次的產品抽驗到現在萊克多巴胺跟西部特羅有沒有驗出?沒有。零。所以我們幾乎可以斷定就只有臺中市食安處的那一包肉有驗出來了而且經過中央食藥署復驗他確實有嘛就只有那一包肉所以盧秀燕市長其實定義的不錯他說這是個案我個人"},{"start":568.796,"end":583.701,"text":"對於過年前他講這次個案我表示佩服因為他講個案至少把衝擊降低一點對很多人減少影響那那個薛部長你先回去休息啦好了那個公佈的過程我們希望亡羊補牢就是建構"},{"start":585.311,"end":608.071,"text":"發布的標準,特別是經常使用的米麵、澱粉等等,它要多少PPB,然後實驗流程要經過什麼樣的程序,然後確認為系統性問題才應該公佈於眾,否則食安會從科學問題因為隨意的違反科學準則去公佈,它從科學問題變成心理恐慌問題。"},{"start":609.735,"end":610.035,"text":"我要請教農業部"},{"start":637.034,"end":653.2,"text":"農部有沒有統計我們農曆春節前本土豬肉的交易量交易產值是多少?我想我們在農曆的過去我講過我先不講今年的以往過往的時候大概是在85塊的上下那從80到85之間一斤85塊對一公斤百公斤一公斤85塊一公斤85塊這一次因為這個事件有沒有波動?"},{"start":662.13,"end":682.455,"text":"我們在監測的他整個過程裡面吼春節就是2月2號到春節那個收市之前是平均是90.8元90.8元但是春節後以後他有不同的不同的因素讓他的價格現在是86平均是86作為農業部的部長你認為這一次西布特羅的事件從一開始發布"},{"start":683.575,"end":684.976,"text":"部長,如果到現在還沒有精算的話,農業部這樣不行喔?"},{"start":708.592,"end":731.149,"text":"你懂我意思嗎?我知道我今天面對這個事情消費者我要保護是供應者就豬農攤販豬肉販傳統市場我都要保護是而有關豬肉這一塊我若是農家部我一定馬上統計今年的因為價格我不會認為是唯一的指標我把數量縮減價格就服了嘛我的意思說以往春節也許比方說一萬斤"},{"start":732.33,"end":745.62,"text":"今年有沒有變成9000斤5000斤然後呢因為這樣的價格或土宅量會不會減少這是農業部的責任你應該統計出來告訴我們說這個消息出來我們今年的本土豬"},{"start":747.312,"end":747.992,"text":"對,我們已經持續在跟那個豬場的這些做一個統計。"},{"start":775.704,"end":803.558,"text":"包括他的那個每一天的批發量大概是2.4萬到2.2萬之間那我們跟去年同期在比較去找出一個去年比較有沒有波動他的波動以價格來講反而比去年高一點但是不能這樣算因為還有成本的問題對還有成本的問題對還有成本的問題還有供應量的問題所以我剛才說我們現在還在做這樣的一個收集這一年來飼料漲價了不能用價格判斷影響對不能用這樣比"},{"start":805.639,"end":828.096,"text":"對你們量有沒有波動有沒有算出來對我們現在的量齁從去年大概2.4萬噸齁大概春節期間那我們今年的話大概是2.2萬噸齁要減才會兩千對但是他的每一頭豬的重量齁比去年還高所以整體的重量來講齁我們現在還在處理你這樣子的數據齁因為你在講要回個格齁簡單來講"},{"start":830.353,"end":846.537,"text":"一、因為他說單一重量加高所以投訴減少。 是。 重量也減少。那這到底是不是因為這個影響你們去統計。 對。 就是說價格的高低會跟供應量跟飼料成本有關係。 對。 但目前我從你剛才的數據聽起來投訴的規價低齁台規價低。 對。 數量有減少。 對。"},{"start":849.298,"end":871.149,"text":"然後總供應的重量數從2.4萬噸降到2.2萬噸數量也有減少,那這個到底是什麼因素導致我不王家定論,榮業部應該要給答案。我最後再請教部長,那如果院長如果知道的話就回答了,不知道的話薛部長你就比較辛苦了。台中那一包肉如果現在是唯一的一包肉有西部特羅,"},{"start":872.779,"end":889.352,"text":"對他到底是從哪裡取回實驗室的一般都去市場取樣嗎他是在台中的一個國軍的這個福利社的這個國軍的那個副使的供應中心那一個供應商其他的肉你們有沒有去驗過他現在"},{"start":892.654,"end":915.661,"text":"我們所了解齁他他取樣的時候針對台糖那一批履歷的那一批齁大概是兩包一包是梅花肉一包是餃子驗完還是只有那一包其他沒有其他沒有縱使在國軍供應站副時供應站就那一包肉有那拿回來之後是誰做檢驗的你們有掌握人嗎就裡面的"},{"start":916.533,"end":917.674,"text":"因為只有在一個實驗室裡面的一塊肉檢驗得到,所以我們一定要從"},{"start":950.784,"end":952.906,"text":"好謝謝王委員定宇的質詢謝謝陳建仁院長謝謝接下來我們請登記第15號羅委員志強質詢"}]}},{"id":"149140","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149140","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb6d6d270f8e00af137b347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6caff4785d022cd645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"16:35:30 - 16:52:25","影片長度":"00:16:55","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":1015,"end_time":"2024-02-23T16:52:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T16:35:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":944,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（16時35分）謝謝韓院長，我請陳院長。"],["主席：請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：李委員午安，恭喜你當選。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝院長。您是科學家，您也曾經擔任過衛生署署長，對於藥政、食安，我相信您也都非常清楚瞭解。這次整個台糖的肉品事件，我覺得造成的是民眾在第一時間聽到的時候是恐慌的，但是整件事情後續的延燒，會造成食安人員其實非常地委屈，最後……"],["陳院長建仁：我完全同意啦！所以這個檢驗本身就是要很謹慎，要有正確的時候才對外公布，才不會引起恐慌。"],["李委員彥秀：同意。好，我們等一下來看看相關的法規，我相信你對法規也非常清楚。我過去長期在衛環委員會，對於整個食安的政策、整個制定的過程，我也給予很多修法的意見，我也非常清楚；但是我相信我們大家都不樂意見到的是最後食安問題變成政治鬥爭的犧牲品，這個是我們大家都不樂意見到的。"],["陳院長建仁：當然，我也不樂意。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我就要請問從21號的食安專家會議，我看到臺中食安處的同仁，從媒體報導上我有看到有人掉眼淚了，這樣的一個會議到底是食安專家會議，還是公審地方稽查人員的會議？"],["陳院長建仁：食安專家的會議，沒有公審的意思。"],["李委員彥秀：好，您是這麼說，因為您也不在現場，我相信這整個過程……"],["陳院長建仁：你也不在。"],["李委員彥秀：你同不同意我說一句話，你同不同意我們認為整個稽查人員在稽查的過程當中，幫民眾把關其實也非常辛苦，你同不同意我這樣的說法？"],["陳院長建仁：我們要謝謝他，他們也很辛苦，這個我同意。"],["李委員彥秀：我認為您是一個……過去我認識的陳院長，您是一個有溫度、非常溫暖的院長，您也是36萬公務人員的院長，如果臺中市的食安處人員21號真的有在食安諮詢委員會裡面掉了眼淚……"],["陳院長建仁：是不是有掉眼淚，我不知道。"],["李委員彥秀：您覺得身為36萬公務員的大院長，您應該要給我們這些同仁加加油、鼓勵鼓勵吧？"],["陳院長建仁：我也感到不捨。如果他真的掉眼淚、他受到委屈，我會不捨，但是我不是在現場，我沒有辦法講，那你說是不是……"],["李委員彥秀：我相信我們在臺上的韓院長一定會拍拍肩膀，說加油、我們一起努力，我相信您也應該會如此。"],["陳院長建仁：我平常不拍人家肩膀、不拍女性肩膀。"],["李委員彥秀：不管是拍肩膀、握手，我覺得您是36萬公務人員的大家長，基層的稽查人員……"],["陳院長建仁：如果我們要謝謝的是所有檢驗人員的努力，我會謝謝他……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，先讓我講完。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["李委員彥秀：我相信我們都給予他們最大的鼓勵，至於未來每一次事件之後，我覺得在食安法的修法，中央跟地方如何合作，我們都應該更明確，有一個更標準的SOP。院長，我相信你對法規都非常清楚，無論是食安法第五十二條也好，在整個稽查過程當中，就我的瞭解，第一時間公告檢查出來，不論是檢查出來的初驗、20次、21次、22次，根據法規都應該是第一時間公開對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對！但是要檢驗很正確，這個很重要，以免造成恐慌，你剛才講的恐慌……"],["李委員彥秀：您認為它檢驗不正確，不管是西布特羅在地方有檢驗出來，不管它檢驗出來是多少，它如果是不得檢出，它就有公告的義務。我相信薛部長在現場，很清楚……"],["陳院長建仁：要確認那個檢出的數據是正確的，很重要啊！對不對？"],["李委員彥秀：0.002跟0.001都是不得檢出，都必須要公告，這是我看法規喔！"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才講的，你要檢驗一個樣品，如果是極微量的時候，那要確定那個極微量是否正確，就需要再去做同批的檢查，因為它所做出來的這個 range 差了很多嘛，所以它實驗的方法本身所測出來的值，同一塊豬肉測出來的值會有那麼大的變異，就需要了解說這個實驗的步驟或者實驗出來的結果是不是正確，正確是最重要。"],["李委員彥秀：好，院長，所以它做了22次嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：但是都不一樣，才奇怪嘛！"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，後來它送到中央複驗還是有驗出，這個檢驗、這個申請複驗只有台糖可以，就是檢驗出它自己，它是業者，只有它自己可以申請複驗，這個流程我覺得我們都……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，實驗室不可以這樣，我們做過實驗的，今天如果我自己在做實驗發現我實驗的結果，同一個樣本，實驗有十幾倍的差異，我會自己檢討實驗有沒有錯啊！"],["李委員彥秀：院長，沒關係，如果要這樣修正，未來我建議……"],["陳院長建仁：這是實驗的基本要件……"],["李委員彥秀：以後不要再叫地方，我們不要再叫地方做檢驗室了……"],["陳院長建仁：要啊！"],["李委員彥秀：過去我們長期希望地方把檢驗室做好……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["李委員彥秀：我相信薛部長很清楚，所以我們才有前瞻預算在基層花了11億做檢驗室，我們給他們標準配備，希望他們來做。如果是這樣，我建議稽查人員不要這麼辛苦，地方不要那麼辛苦，全部都收回來中央來驗！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這回事。"],["李委員彥秀：因為中央到地方，行政命令允許他們有14天的時間，最長14天的時間申請複驗，薛部長，我講得沒錯吧？這14天當中，我不是講這一次的事件，這14天當中，任何一個食安事件都有可能，如果是真的有問題，有可能流入消費者的肚子裡面，這都不是我們願意見到的。如果大家對於地方的檢驗室這麼不信任，稽查人員有這麼多的委屈，我覺得就乾脆收回來中央算了，這不是我願意見到的……"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，你聽我講完，我沒有要跟你吵架，我今天是就法論法……"],["陳院長建仁：我也沒有跟你吵，我只是即問即答嘛！剛才講的，即問即答。"],["李委員彥秀：我們希望每一次的討論讓食安後續的過程……接下來如果萬一再有食安的管理事件，我們可以更精進，中央地方權責我們一起把它處理得更好。"],["陳院長建仁：我們中央地方一起來努力……"],["李委員彥秀：這是我們的目標。院長，時間真的不多……"],["陳院長建仁：但是有一個先決條件，我講1分鐘就好，一下下就好。所有的實驗要公布以前，一定要確認實驗的步驟是正確的嘛！如果你實驗不正確，你怎麼公布呢？這是最重要的啊！"],["李委員彥秀：院長，所以你質疑，所以你認為它的實驗過程不正確就對了？"],["陳院長建仁：其實它自己也有質疑啊！因為它自己的檢驗差了十幾倍啊！它為什麼要驗22次？"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，院長……"],["陳院長建仁：就是這樣嘛！你懂我的意思了？"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我覺得我們可以有更多討論的空間……"],["陳院長建仁：正確性最重要。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我說，因為西布特羅其實是非常少數的，他們也擔心實驗會有誤差，所以他們才會檢測這麼多次……"],["陳院長建仁：但是這麼多次有差異啊！"],["李委員彥秀：那台糖有申請，它就複驗到中央。我也要請教你，稽查人員其實以臺北市為例，3萬家的食品業者，我們稽查人員其實只有五十多位……"],["陳院長建仁：很辛苦，而且我們感謝他們。"],["李委員彥秀：辛不辛苦？"],["陳院長建仁：他們真的很認真。"],["李委員彥秀：人夠不夠？以臺北市為例，這還不包括市場這些，還有包括流動攤販等等，其實3萬的餐飲跟食品業者只有53個稽查人員，還有包括最近這幾年我們食安的源頭管理，包括我們開放萊豬、開放核食，有更多的專案，包括前一陣子進口的日本草莓等等，每天有這麼多專案在做，但是以臺北市來說我們只有53個人，人力是嚴重地不足，所以在過程當中我可以感受到臺中的稽查業者為什麼會在會議上掉眼淚，所以我今天其實另外一個重要的議題，我認為我們應該中央另外想辦法補人、給人。"],["陳院長建仁：所以不應該反對前瞻建設，我們有補了26億喔！"],["李委員彥秀：院長，國民黨沒有反對前瞻建設……"],["陳院長建仁：我們會繼續努力。"],["李委員彥秀：國民黨反對空頭支票，我們更反對……"],["陳院長建仁：我們會繼續努力。"],["李委員彥秀：所以院長，那我現在問你，你要不要再另外額外給人？各縣市你給錢、給人啊！"],["陳院長建仁：現在整個檢驗的過程應該怎麼樣來精進，我剛才已經答應前面的委員說我們會再來跟中央地方一起來檢討怎麼樣來精進這整個檢驗的過程，這個我們會來努力，然後了解現在的人力……"],["李委員彥秀：包括我提的啦，你就乾脆檢驗以後都直接送中央，不要地方……"],["陳院長建仁：這不是……"],["李委員彥秀：不然的話，你對地方有這麼多的問號、不信任……"],["陳院長建仁：這不是食安法的規定，你現在要做的話……"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，薛部長在這邊……"],["陳院長建仁：這食安法的規定，不依法辦理……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，你現在辯才無礙，什麼都能夠講，你問薛部長有沒有辦法以後就乾脆都收回來……"],["陳院長建仁：不依法辦理可以嗎？"],["李委員彥秀：我也支持，我也支持地方不要再做實驗室……"],["陳院長建仁：立法委員說我們不要按食安法來做食安的管控，這個我覺得很奇怪，那為什麼……"],["李委員彥秀：院長、院長，我從來沒有說不要按照食安法，你不要……"],["陳院長建仁：你說都不要做了，你自己講的啊！"],["李委員彥秀：我說收回地方來做中央，不要在地方做檢驗室。"],["陳院長建仁：但是食安法不是這樣規定。"],["李委員彥秀：我說收回來，法當然能做調整啊！源頭管理……"],["陳院長建仁：你要修法嗎？"],["李委員彥秀：院長、院長，源頭管理沒做好，就會累死地方的基層。"],["陳院長建仁：所以地方一起來做源頭。"],["李委員彥秀：近八年來、近八年來食安的問題不斷，包括……"],["陳院長建仁：所以雲林縣做得很好啊！找到紅辣椒的問題。"],["李委員彥秀：院長、院長……韓院長，時間暫停，我如果一直講話，院長不聽我講話，我怎麼答詢得下去？時間先暫停！"],["陳院長建仁：我們是即問即答，專案報告是這樣。"],["主席：我想時間暫停。再一次跟院會報告、跟委員報告一下，今天是專案報告，也要請官員跟委員之間，還是一樣呼籲相互尊重……"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們相互尊重，即問即答。"],["主席：把問題講清楚，遵守相關質詢規定，好嗎？"],["李委員彥秀：好。"],["主席：請繼續。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝韓院長。我平常也是個很溫和的人，陳院長。"],["陳院長建仁：我也是啊！我更是。"],["李委員彥秀：我今天跟你要人力、稽查人力，我相信這不是太困難的事情，給更多的稽查人力，我們把食安工作做得更好，我相信這點應該能具體承諾吧！"],["陳院長建仁：要人力以外，他的技術還要精進，然後儀器、設備要加強。"],["李委員彥秀：這沒關係，我們大家可以就專業面來談，我沒有反對啊、我沒有反對啊！所以這個我們是有共識的。我更認為我們過去都有在討論包括食品雲的部分、跨部會的食品雲……"],["陳院長建仁：對，這是好的方法。"],["李委員彥秀：我們有農產品、我們有生產履歷，但是有一塊我覺得我們可以做得更好，包括我們現在有區塊鏈，對於整個管理機制、資訊機制，從農產到餐桌上整個成品的過程，我們可能可以用一個QR Code看得更清楚，這個我覺得都是未來食品管理的方向。"],["陳院長建仁：履歷嘛！對，建立履歷制度。"],["李委員彥秀：我們努力朝那個方向來進行。"],["陳院長建仁：有，正在往這裡走。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得這樣子的討論方式，你不要一聽到我質詢，我們兩個就一直講，我覺得這個質詢沒辦法讓彼此更進步。所以如果院長也同意給人，給基層同仁、36萬的公務人員更多的鼓勵，給我們這些稽查同仁更多的加油、打氣，給更多的溫暖，我覺得大家對於食安的進步，人民才有機會從我們的答詢，對於政府從中央到地方給予更多的肯定。臺灣是一個美食王國，怎麼樣讓食品的安全、讓國際看得到我們的管理是很嚴格的？所以我才會提出來說我們增加稽查人力、我們未來要怎麼樣精進食安的機制，我們可以進一步再探討，只要我們把SOP寫得更清楚，未來是不是15天之內所有的複驗都一定要送進來？我指的是所有的都要送進來喔！薛部長，你知道我在講什麼，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李委員彥秀：你現在要求複驗15天都要算，那未來是不是都是15天？每一樣都是15天？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，15天是廠商可以要求，但是我們不一定要等到15天，要看風險高低。如果這個東西是風險高的，那我們不用等了……"],["李委員彥秀：好，15天對我一個媽媽來說、以媽媽的角色來說，我等不到15天……"],["陳院長建仁：對，所以……"],["李委員彥秀：因為任何一天流入到我小孩、我家人的肚子裡面，我都是會擔心的。"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們不會等到15天。"],["李委員彥秀：所以這就是我們討論嘛，3天是不是民眾可以接受的？"],["薛部長瑞元：看東西的風險。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我覺得這個都是政策面的討論。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李委員彥秀：你要想清楚，再對外交代說明，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得整起事件、我覺得食品安全還是從頭來說，它真的是一個科學問題、它是一個民生問題，所以怎麼樣把它管理得更好，再加上我們現在大數據做得也不錯……"],["陳院長建仁：我們正在利用這個數據。"],["李委員彥秀：再加上區塊鏈在資訊上的管理，從農產品的整體管理部分做一個更完整的QR Code給民眾，像我們雞蛋現在就有QR Code嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["李委員彥秀：但是我們更多的是餐桌上每一樣買回來吃的東西，因為現在超市也很多是煮熟的東西，你只要買回來，microwave加熱一下馬上就可以吃了，當我們民眾對於食安有疑義的時候，透過一個QR Code，我們馬上就可以刷出來看它的整個生產履歷，這是我們要的。"],["陳院長建仁：很好的建議。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我們今天的專案報告是過去8年食安的檢討，過去8年食安的事件其實也不算少，包括過年期間，我們的白蘿蔔含農藥的事件，還有近期蝦味先蘇丹紅，我想蘇丹紅的事件雖然業者是在新北，但是發現在高雄，第一時間也就快速地下架，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：是。所以我們食安是有進步啊！"],["李委員彥秀：無論是我們自己在野黨，我們都覺得下架很好啊！我們儘速地下架處理，中央也沒有任何質疑，我們也沒有講說要不要再多檢查看看。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，不必要。"],["李委員彥秀：對啊！所以我才說不要兩套標準，我覺得我們在處理的過程當中，我們都把它當成這都是我們的事，不管中央的稽查人員、地方的稽查人員、中央的食藥署、地方的食安處……"],["陳院長建仁：衛生局。"],["李委員彥秀：我們都把它當作我們是同一個團隊在守護民眾的健康……"],["陳院長建仁：我們就是一家人，本來我們就是同一個團隊。"],["李委員彥秀：不要有太多的不信任。"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有不信任。"],["李委員彥秀：就不會讓民眾覺得怎麼食安問題變成是一個政治事件。"],["陳院長建仁：我們現在中央跟地方一起合作來做食安，已經做了8年，食安五環做得很好，不像委員在這裡講的「這只是口號治國」，這是真真實實地踏實在做，我們也謝謝……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我只能說食安五環……"],["陳院長建仁：我們謝謝各地方政府的努力。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我只剩下41秒。食安五環過去我們都認為在源頭的管理破了好幾個洞，所以近期我也羅列出來有這麼多戴奧辛的雞蛋、芬普尼的雞蛋，還有包括最近蘇丹紅蝦味先的事件，我們如果做得更快速的話，說不定蝦味先會回收的更快，原來36萬包，我們只回收9萬包……"],["陳院長建仁：這就是因為大家努力去檢驗，才能夠很快檢驗出來。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得層層面面我們該做的事情很多……"],["陳院長建仁：所以各地方政府很努力，你講啊！各地方政府很努力，所以才有這樣的成果。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我只能說……"],["陳院長建仁：能夠提前發現……"],["李委員彥秀：民眾對於食安的管理……"],["陳院長建仁：很重要……"],["李委員彥秀：是沒有沒有信心的，我只能說沒有信心的，所以你食安五環破了好幾個洞之後，後續我們如何去補強，恐怕你得花更多的心思，而不是只有政治口號。"],["陳院長建仁：太多的假消息，才會沒有信心啦！"],["主席：謝謝李委員彥秀的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第14位王委員定宇質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","李坤城","洪孟楷","洪申翰","廖偉翔","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳沛憶","王育敏","何欣純","李彥秀","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009","1130401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「民進黨政府執政八年臺灣食安問題總檢討」專案報告並備質詢─ 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,恭喜你當選。議員長,您是科學家,您也曾經擔任過衛生署署長。您對於藥證、食安,我相信您也都非常清楚了解。這一次整個臺堂的肉品事件,我覺得造成的是,民眾在第一時間聽到的時候是恐慌的,但是整件事情後續的延燒,"},{"start":39.562,"end":60.075,"text":"我完全同意啦,所以這個檢驗本身就是要很謹慎,要有正確的時候才對外公開。我相信你對法規也非常清楚,我過去長期在衛黃委員會對於整個食安的政策整個過程制定的過程,我也給予很多修法的意見,我也非常清楚。"},{"start":60.575,"end":75.744,"text":"但是我相信我們大家都不樂意見到的是最後食安問題變成政治鬥爭的犧牲品這個是我們大家都不樂意見到的當然我也不樂意院長那我就要請問從21號的食安專家會議喔"},{"start":78.766,"end":80.147,"text":"施安專家的會議沒有公審的意思。"},{"start":96.966,"end":125.019,"text":"您是這麼說因為您也不在現場我相信這整個過程你同不同意我說一句話你同不同意我們認為整個稽查人員在稽查的過程當中其實幫民眾把關其實也非常辛苦我們要謝謝他他們也很辛苦我認為您是一個過去我認識的陳院長您是一個有溫度非常溫暖的院長你也是36萬公務人員的院長"},{"start":126.55,"end":134.85,"text":"如果臺中處的實案處人員21號真的有在實案諮詢委員會裡面,掉了眼淚﹖"},{"start":136.119,"end":158.507,"text":"我覺得身為36萬公務員的大院長您應該給我們這些同仁加加油鼓勵鼓勵吧我相信我們在臺上的韓院長一定會拍拍肩膀加油我們一起努力我相信你也應該會如此不管拍肩膀握手我覺得"},{"start":170.695,"end":189.309,"text":"我相信我們都給予他們最大鼓勵至於未來每一次事件之後我覺得在審法的修法中央跟地方如何合作我們都應該更明確有一個更標準的SOP好 院長我相信你對法規都非常清楚"},{"start":190.804,"end":204.809,"text":"無論食安法、食安法的52條也好在整個清查過程當中就我的了解第一時間公告檢查出來不論檢查出來的出院20次、21次、22次根據法規都應該是第一時間公開對不對"},{"start":211.804,"end":217.166,"text":"對,但是要檢驗很正確,這個很重要,以免造成恐慌,你剛才講的恐慌吧。要確認那個檢出的數據是正確的。"},{"start":230.987,"end":236.73,"text":"我剛才講的你要檢驗一個樣品如果是極微量的時候那要確定那個極微量是否正確呢就需要再去做同批的檢查"},{"start":250.896,"end":272.371,"text":"因為他所做出來的這個Range差了很多所以他的實驗的方法本身是所測出來的質同一塊豬肉測出來的質會有那麼大的變異就需要了解說這個實驗的步驟或者實驗出來的結果是不是正確所以他做了22次所以他做了22次後來他送到中央復驗他還是有驗出"},{"start":279.195,"end":295.82,"text":"這個檢驗這個申請復驗只有台堂可以就是檢驗出他自己他是業者他只有他自己可以申請復驗這個流程我覺得我們都可以實驗室不可以這樣我們做過實驗的我今天如果我自己在做實驗發現我實驗的結果同一個樣本實驗有十幾倍的差異我會"},{"start":301.042,"end":328.05,"text":"我跟你講沒關係如果要這樣修正未來我建議我們不要再叫地方做檢驗室了過去我們長期希望地方把檢驗室做好我相信薛部長很清楚所以我們才有全債預算在基層花了11億做檢驗室我們給他們標準配備希望他們來做如果是這樣我建議稽查人員不要這麼辛苦地方不要那麼辛苦"},{"start":328.51,"end":356.471,"text":"全部都收回來中央來驗。沒有這回事。因為中央到地方,我們允許有,行政命令允許他們有14天的時間,最長14天的時間申請復驗。薛部長我講的沒錯吧?是。這14天當中,任何,我不是講這一次的事件。這14天當中,都有任何一個食安事件,都有可能,如果是真的有問題,有可能流入消費者的肚子裡面,這都不是我們願意見到的。"},{"start":358.246,"end":374.406,"text":"如果大家對於地方的檢驗室這麼不信任,警察人員有這麼多的委屈,我覺得應該是收回來中央算了,這不是我意見到。好,院長你聽我講完,你聽我講,我沒有要跟你吵架,我今天是做法論法。"},{"start":376.708,"end":395.117,"text":"我們希望每一次的討論讓食安後續的過程接下來如果萬一再有食安的管理事件我們可以更精進中央地方全責我們一起把它處理得更好這是我們的目標 院長時間真的不多但是有一個先決條件我講一分鐘就好一下下就好"},{"start":395.837,"end":415.473,"text":"所有的實驗要公佈以前一定要確認實驗的步驟是正確的嘛那如果你實驗不正確你怎麼公佈呢?所以你認為他的實驗的過程不正確就對了?其實他自己也有質疑啊因為他自己的檢驗差了十幾倍啊那他為什麼要驗22次?"},{"start":417.535,"end":432.468,"text":"沒關係,院長,院長,接下來的過程我覺得我們可以更多討論的空間,所以我說如果,就是他因為希伯特羅其實是非常少數的,他們也擔心實驗會有誤差,所以他們才會檢測這麼多次。"},{"start":435.09,"end":436.332,"text":"但是這麼多怎麼發言?而且我們感謝他們"},{"start":450.709,"end":471.374,"text":"辛苦辛苦,人夠不夠以台北市為例喔,這還不包括市場這些還有包括流動攤販等等,其實3萬的餐飲跟食品業者只有53個稽查人員,還有包括我們最近這幾年我們食安的源頭管理,包括我們開放萊豬,開放和食,"},{"start":474.255,"end":500.341,"text":"有更多的專案包括前一陣子進口的日本草莓等等每天有這麼多的專案在做但是我們以台北市來說我們只有53個人力是嚴重的不足所以在過程當中我可以感受到臺中的稽查業者為什麼會在會議上掉眼淚所以我今天其實另外一個重要議題我認為我們應該中央另外想辦法補人給人"},{"start":501.161,"end":506.265,"text":"所以不應該反對前瞻建設,我們有補了26億喔!我們會繼續努力!我們會繼續努力!所以,院長,那我現在問你,你要不要再另外額外給人?"},{"start":516.132,"end":545.054,"text":"各縣市你給錢給人啊現在整個的檢驗的這個過程應該怎麼樣來精進我剛才已經答應前面的委員說我們會再來跟中央地方一起來檢討怎麼樣來精進這整個檢驗的過程這個我們會來努力然後瞭解現在的人力包括我提的啦你就乾脆檢驗以後都直接送中央不要地方不然的話你對地方有這麼多的問號不信任這不是食安法的規定"},{"start":546.195,"end":547.355,"text":"但是食安法不是這樣規定啊。"},{"start":574.65,"end":601.766,"text":"呃﹗"},{"start":604.022,"end":632.859,"text":"我們是急問急答啦。專案報告時間。再一次跟院會報告跟委員報告一下今天是專案報告也要請官員跟委員之間能夠還是一樣暫時呼籲相互尊重。好啦我們相互尊重急問急答。院長謝謝韓院長我平常也是個很溫和的人陳院長我今天除了要跟你要人力稽查人力"},{"start":634.372,"end":642.929,"text":"相信這不是太困難的事情。給更多的稽查人力我們把食安工作做得更好。我相信這點應該能具體承諾吧。"},{"start":643.951,"end":665.759,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":666.299,"end":693.197,"text":"我們有農產品我們有生產履歷但是有一塊我覺得我們可以做得更好包括我們現在有區塊鏈對於整個管理的機制資訊機制從農產到餐桌上那整個成品的過程中我們有可能用一個QR code可以看得更清楚這個都是未來我覺得食品管理的方向"},{"start":695.505,"end":718.574,"text":"我們努力朝那個方向來進行。我覺得這樣子的討論方式你不要一聽到我質詢就我們兩個一直我覺得這個質詢是沒有辦法讓彼此更進步所以如果院長也同意給人給基層同仁36萬的公務人員更多的鼓勵給我們這些稽查同仁更多的加油打氣給更多的溫暖"},{"start":720.422,"end":746.981,"text":"我覺得大家對於食安的進步人民才有機會對於政府我們的答詢對於政府從中央到地方給予更多的肯定臺灣是一個美食王國怎麼樣讓食品的安全讓國際看得到我們管理是很嚴格的所以我才會提出來說稽查人力我們增加我們未來要怎麼樣精進我們食安的機制我們可以進一步再探討只要我們把SOP寫得更清楚"},{"start":748.557,"end":775.406,"text":"15天之內未來是不是都15天之內所有的復驗都一定要送進來我指的是所有的都要送進來喔那個薛部長你知道我在講什麼對不對你現在是要求復驗15天都要送那未來是不是15都是15天每一樣都是15天15天是那廠商可以要求但是我們不一定要等到15天要看風險高低"},{"start":777.338,"end":799.252,"text":"如果這個東西是風險高的。好那我15天我對我一個媽媽來說媽媽的角色來說我等不到15天因為任何一天流入到我小孩我家人的肚子裡面我都是會擔心的所以這個就是我們討論啦三天是不是民眾可以接受的"},{"start":800.613,"end":824.351,"text":"所以我覺得這個不是政策面的討論你要想清楚再對外交代說明好不好那所以我覺得整體事件我覺得食品安全我還是從頭來說它真的是一個科學問題它是一個民生問題所以怎麼樣把它管理得更好那我們再加上我們過去我們現在大數據"},{"start":825.697,"end":825.937,"text":"我們正在利用這個時間"},{"start":850.902,"end":879.417,"text":"怎麼樣當我們對於民眾的有對食安的疑義我們有疑義的時候透過一個QR Code我們馬上就可以刷出看大家整個生產履歷就是我們要的。院長我們今天專案報告是過去8年的食安的檢討其實過去8年食安的事件其實也不算少包括過年期間我們的這個蘿蔔我們的白蘿蔔含農藥的事件還有近期"},{"start":880.317,"end":903.716,"text":"稍為先蘇丹鴻我講了蘇丹鴻的事件雖然業者是在新北但是發現在高雄第一時間也就快速的下架那無論是在野黨無論是在野我們自己在野黨我們都覺得下架很好啊我們盡速的下架處理那我們中央也沒有任何機遇我們也沒有講說要不要再多檢查看看"},{"start":905.233,"end":934.185,"text":"沒有,不必要所以我才說不要兩套標準我覺得我們在處理的過程當中我們都把它當成這都是我們不管中央的稽查人員我們地方的稽查人員中央的食藥署我們地方的食安處我們都把它當成我們是同一個團隊在守護民眾的健康不要有太多的不信任我們沒有不信任就不會讓民眾覺得說怎麼食安問題變成是一個政治事件"},{"start":934.625,"end":951.679,"text":"我們現在中央跟地方一起合作來做食安已經做了8年食安午飯做得很好不像委員在這裡講的這只是口號治國這是真正實時的踏實在做我們也謝謝我們也謝謝各地方政府的努力"},{"start":952.239,"end":954.219,"text":"這就是因為我們大家努力去檢驗我覺得層層面面"},{"start":979.804,"end":983.585,"text":"委員長我只能說齁,民眾對於食安的管理是沒有信心的。我只能說沒有信心的。所以你食安委員破了好幾個動作"},{"start":1006.909,"end":1015.188,"text":"好,謝謝李委員彥秀的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第14位王委員定語。"}]}},{"id":"149139","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149139","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb61ce0de08678f2d5ab347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6a976b0c0bcf648875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"16:19:25 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16:35:24","影片長度":"00:15:59","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":959,"end_time":"2024-02-23T16:35:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T16:19:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":883,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（16時19分）謝謝院長，我們請陳建仁院長，也請我們農業部部長，也請衛生福利部部長。"],["主席：請陳院長及相關部會首長備詢。"],["何委員欣純：院長好。"],["陳院長建仁：何委員好，恭喜你。"],["何委員欣純：院長，我相信，我們不管中央、地方，我們都非常肯定，也非常心疼，也心存感恩，謝謝第一線上食安的所有稽查人員，所以剛剛我聽到院長能夠義正嚴詞地，第一個、為了維護這些稽查人員的尊嚴，我們肯定他，為了維護這些稽查人員，我們感謝他的辛苦，院長的態度是對的，因為我們不能接受有人類似挑撥離間的說法，這是剛剛院長所講的，我們肯定第一線稽查人員的辛苦，對不對？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我們完全肯定他們，也跟他們一起合作。"],["何委員欣純：我們一起合作嘛！因為我們只有一個目標，就是守護國人的食安……"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["何委員欣純：所以在肯定第一線稽查人員的時候，我們真的知道他們辛苦，過年的時候還不斷地在加班稽查，但是同樣地，就是為了食安，我們必須要接受科學的驗證，因為院長還有所有的食安稽查人員、所有的專業人員也都知道食安是科學的，我們科學的驗證是大家必須要用專業去面對，所以真的不要用一些情緒性的或者是一些不夠科學、證據不是那麼充分的情況之下，我覺得今天有很多委員的發言都沒有讓院長好好地說清楚，我覺得食安，再講一次，第一個、中央地方只有一個目標，維護國人的食安……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["何委員欣純：第二個、要維護食安，只要一旦有相關類似食安事件發生的時候，溯源、真相、讓人民安心，這個才是重點嘛！院長，同不同意？"],["陳院長建仁：我完全同意，確實，整個食安，我們中央和地方密切合作，而食安人員相當的辛勞。","這一個事件是臺中市在做決策的時候應該要更加地周延，我早上也曾經講過，因為它檢驗的濃度相當的低，而且只有一個樣本，所以應該要在做決策的時候更謹慎一點來避免恐慌，我舉個例子，像豬農或者是台糖就因此而有很大的損失。"],["何委員欣純：院長，所以我們再來講一下，你剛剛講的，我們食安五環，這是我們2016執政之後勇於面對、積極地去建立這樣的食安五環制度。針對剛剛這個案件，所謂大家在關心的台糖梅花肉事件，就如同剛剛院長講的，臺中市政府到底在這個所謂的從飼養、屠宰、分裝到市場上、市面上每一個環節，院長，你知道臺中市政府在通報的時候有沒有告訴中央這些它都有去檢驗過嗎？你知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["何委員欣純：沒有，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["何委員欣純：他通報中央的時候也沒有交代這整個過程，而且臺中市政府在2月2日公布的時候也沒有相關這樣子的資訊讓國人知道，對不對？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：對，確實，當時只是公布台糖的一塊豬肉驗出來，就只有這樣，沒有任何的查核啦！"],["何委員欣純：沒有任何查核，所以今天我們事實上應該給院長時間，而且我看院長從早上到現在不斷地在告訴國人、不斷地在告訴各位委員，我們中央一旦知道，2月2日收到通報之後，我們趕快去溯源，我們去驗飼料，飼料那邊沒有；我們也去驗屠宰、分裝有沒有，也說沒有；甚至我們要求和各地方政府聯手稽查，台糖這個同批的肉品裡面，我們抽樣檢查到現在，依剛剛我們收到的報告是八百多件將近900件是零檢出的，對不對？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：對，完全檢不出來，沒有檢到。"],["何委員欣純：所以我就要請教院長，這個就是社會的質疑嘛！臺中市政府1月15日抽檢，2月2日公布，而這中間半個多月（二個禮拜）的時間，剛剛我們聽到院長說中央不知道臺中市政府到底有沒有去溯源，譬如去抽驗飼料，譬如去看這個屠宰、分裝的場域，有沒有再去市面上抽台糖這一個梅花肉同批的肉品，好像到目前為止我們都沒有看到臺中市政府有交代，這半個多月的時間，院長，你覺得第一個，臺中市政府沒有讓台糖申請複驗這個程序；第二個，也沒讓中央知道它相關的，也就是說從溯源的相關複驗的檢驗程序，它也都沒有清楚交代，院長，這件事給我們什麼啟示？我們中央、地方應該還要怎麼精進，讓食安能夠更安全、更讓人民放心？"],["陳院長建仁：我想在這整個的過程當中，我們可以發現在臺中市政府這個檢驗為什麼會拖這麼多時間呢？說實在話，因為它只有採了一個樣本，那個樣本檢驗出來以後，它發現在前面那一段有西布特羅，它後來又把那一塊肉再切一塊再來做，然後又發現。實際上來來去去都是只針對一塊肉在那邊做檢驗，沒有去想到同一批的豬肉也需要再去採檢，這個檢驗出來的濃度很低的時候，他們也沒有再尋求更多互相複驗的部分。所以未來在整個程序當中，我剛才也答應吳思瑤委員，我們中央跟地方一起再合作，怎麼樣把檢驗過程的SOP做得更完整一點，讓地方政府也知道在公布任何事實之前，特別是很低劑量的時候，應該要做到什麼程度，也應該跟廠商這邊要有所瞭解以後才來做公布，免得引起不必要的恐慌，導致……"],["何委員欣純：院長，我覺得要更精準地說，在我們整個食安相關法規或者是實驗抽樣相關的規範裡面……"],["陳院長建仁：SOP。"],["何委員欣純：有關SOP，我們中央和地方應該要好好坐下來檢討面對。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["何委員欣純：如何讓它精進，因為不希望有下一次同樣的事情來發生。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["何委員欣純：但是這個精進是為了讓國人安心跟放心，也為了要維護其他受影響的譬如說豬農、譬如說肉品市場相關的產業，我們也是為了要維護他們的權益。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["何委員欣純：我覺得這個是要方方面面，真的是要仔仔細細的，中央、地方大家要聯手，這個不是在搶功，也不是在說食安有英雄主義。食安沒有英雄主義，食安只有團隊的精神，大家一起合作為國人把關。院長，你同不同意？"],["陳院長建仁：對，完全同意，我們要團結一心，中央、地方一起合作，還有公私一定要協力，這樣才能夠把食安的部分做到最好。"],["何委員欣純：所以院長，如果以現在看到目前所有顯現的證據，還有你們抽驗，包括各地方政府抽驗檢查的結果，都是零檢出的情況之下，我記得院長在2月20號有說臺中的「天選之肉」，這個個案是一個單純的個案，盧市長也說這是一個單純的個案，院長，你覺得這是一個怎樣的單純法？"],["陳院長建仁：單純的意思就是說只有一塊豬肉，到目前為止只有一塊豬肉檢驗出來有西布特羅，而且是只有在臺中市這裡檢驗得到，這個是單一個案，也就是說，其他的豬肉都沒有受到影響，所以民眾可以放心地食用。我相信臺中市政府也找不到任何的事證要去說這不是單一事件，如果是單一事件就很重要了，為什麼這個單一事件會發生在臺中市政府的檢驗室裡面？所以我們需要去瞭解發生在臺中市政府檢驗室裡面的原因，這也就是為什麼我們的專家委員會特別針對這個實驗室，因為是在這個實驗室裡面檢驗到，去看看不同的實驗步驟、操作的情況……"],["何委員欣純：就是哪個環節出錯。"],["陳院長建仁：對，是在哪一個環節出錯，因為其他的實驗室都驗不出來，就只有它的實驗室驗得出來，而且那個實驗室又剛好有西布特羅的成分在，所以這個本來就是食安，又為了要精進檢驗的方法、操作的步驟，然後要所有的複驗的情況都能夠做得很好，所以才會去做這個實驗室的調查。我覺得既然臺中市政府認為是單一的事件，這個單一事件是在實驗室，它也應該再針對實驗室做更精確的瞭解。"],["何委員欣純：它也應該要針對實驗室裡面、在實驗的過程裡面是不是有哪個環節出錯，臺中市政府也必須對這件事情給個交代，就如同我剛剛一開始問院長的，其實1月15號到2月2號這中間，即使那一塊肉在那一個實驗室，不管是檢驗了6次、7次、10次、22次，雖然檢驗出是有微量的劑量在，但是我們其他的實驗室或者是同批肉品在其他縣市統統都沒有檢出，所以臺中市也必須清楚地給國人一個真相嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：為什麼它檢得出來。"],["何委員欣純：為什麼，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對，為什麼它檢出。"],["何委員欣純：而且我覺得我可能要再提醒中央，剛剛有其他委員一直在指稱國防部在臺中福利站的同批肉品都已經賣出了，好像那些賣出的就已經流入市面，院長、部長都在這裡，但是同批肉品賣出的那一批肉品不代表就是跟受到檢驗的實驗室那一盒梅花豬肉片是同一批肉品，因為我們有溯源制度，事實上是要根據盒上的溯源QR Code，才能夠知道跟受檢驗有微量西布特羅的這一盒肉同肉品的肉品在哪裡，其實是要透過溯源系統，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對，要從溯源系統才知道。"],["何委員欣純：所以我覺得這個要講清楚，不然很多人或是一般人不懂的話，就會被似是而非而混淆了，所以農業部部長及經濟部部長知道我在說的邏輯是什麼，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["何委員欣純：你可不可以再清楚說一下？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想特別說明一下，臺中市政府所取得的這40個樣品，它是同一天在不同地區去取樣，針對同一批的部分大概只有兩個，一個是梅花肉、一個是小排的部分，所以它檢測出來西布特羅的梅花肉樣品就是那一盒那一塊肉，後續它做檢驗的時候都是在這一塊肉裡面重複去做這些相關的檢測。基本上在一個比較正常的檢測邏輯上面來看，如果它的檢測量是非常低的時候，應該去尋求前後批或是透過履歷追溯其他不同的同品項產品再去做確認，這樣的話會是比較嚴謹的。"],["何委員欣純：比較嚴謹又完整，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["何委員欣純：而且最後、最後才能下結論來確認，對不對？甚至在通報中央的時候，也必須跟中央聯手再確認、再確認、再確認，也許是透過不同的實驗室同樣檢驗的SOP，精準地得到一個結果再來公布，是不是才是比較嚴謹的作法？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我們未來可能還是要跟地方合作，把這個 SOP建立好，像委員所建議的，如果他們檢驗出什麼東西的話也來通報中央，中央也來幫忙做double check或者更完整地把這個資料呈現出來。"],["何委員欣純：我再請問院長，我剛剛講1月15日到2月2日，他們兩個禮拜自己在那裡做確認，沒有通報中央，我們在相關法規的SOP上面有沒有其他的規範，或是以後可以精進有更嚴謹的規範？我們也許可以怎麼來協助地方，或者是讓抽驗的結果能夠精準再來公布？"],["陳院長建仁：目前是沒有完整的規範，所以我們會在這個部分像委員所建議的，在實驗室操作準則以及通報、複驗的部分，我們會再來精進。"],["何委員欣純：好。所以我再提醒一次，很多委員拿了所謂已經流入市面的那些幾千包肉品可能就是破口，我覺得行政院、中央基於科學依據要講清楚，一定要講清楚，不要造成民心的不安、恐慌。"],["陳院長建仁：好。委員，我剛才講的時候有一點點講得比較大聲一點，實際上，我們所有食品的抽樣，只要樣本數大於30的時候，它就具有代表性，一般食安檢查的時候就用抽樣來檢查，沒有一個食安檢查是要做百分之百的，這是不合科學根據的，也不合統計學理論根據的。"],["何委員欣純：所以院長，我覺得面對任何問題的時候，我們要用簡單直白讓人家聽得懂的話語來解釋，像剛剛我們的一番討論，我覺得就會讓人家更清楚地明白中央是有誠意，而且中央是負責任地在維護國人的食安，對不對？","最後10秒，我只有兩件事。今天受影響的台糖是國營事業，如果換作其他的私人民間企業可能就撐不住了，這件事情我覺得應該要研議用什麼樣的方式來因應；第二個，食安的原則，越早溯源越能夠安民心，所以希望我們在檢討相關機制的時候，能夠越早溯源、越早釐清真相，讓人民能夠更安心，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們會來繼續努力。"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何委員欣純的質詢。","接下來我們請登記第13號李委員彥秀質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","李坤城","洪孟楷","洪申翰","廖偉翔","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳沛憶","王育敏","何欣純","李彥秀","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009","1130401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「民進黨政府執政八年臺灣食安問題總檢討」專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1130401_00012"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.67096875,"end":10.172843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.290968750000001,"end":17.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.54284375,"end":21.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.715343750000002,"end":22.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.33971875,"end":22.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.082218750000003,"end":23.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.09909375,"end":23.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.11596875,"end":23.554718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.976593750000003,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.195968750000002,"end":25.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.64721875,"end":27.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.570968750000002,"end":29.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.69721875,"end":32.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.09346875,"end":44.682218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.83409375,"end":69.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.93596875,"end":70.77096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.87221875,"end":87.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.69409375000001,"end":77.11596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.21971875,"end":89.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.17721875000001,"end":93.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.39596875000001,"end":101.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.68596875,"end":103.40721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.11596875000001,"end":112.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.85721875,"end":139.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.10721875000002,"end":133.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.26221875000002,"end":145.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.34159375000002,"end":173.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.82659375,"end":175.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.69971875000002,"end":176.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.23534375,"end":188.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.35159375,"end":191.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.00096875,"end":193.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.53659375,"end":195.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.01721875,"end":197.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.22784375,"end":200.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.19784375,"end":201.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.94034375,"end":203.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.59409375,"end":211.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.09909375,"end":213.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.15784375,"end":214.78221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.20846875,"end":214.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.01409375,"end":230.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.11534375000002,"end":216.92534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.34096875,"end":236.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.95596875,"end":237.56346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.56346875000003,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.96409375000002,"end":278.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.29534375000003,"end":281.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.64534375,"end":282.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.83909375,"end":284.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.24409375,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.99909375000004,"end":286.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.04096875,"end":296.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.57096875,"end":313.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.39534375,"end":318.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.69034375,"end":317.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.71534375000005,"end":325.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.78596875,"end":326.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.84471875,"end":330.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.64596875,"end":333.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.81846875,"end":352.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.19159375000004,"end":349.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.31346875,"end":392.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.42534375,"end":398.34846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.39909375,"end":399.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.66471875,"end":403.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.12409375000004,"end":422.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.95659375,"end":431.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.27596875,"end":430.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.05221875,"end":431.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.11971875,"end":474.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.24971875000006,"en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院長"},{"start":660.39,"end":681.427,"text":"部長他們都在這裡同批的肉品賣出的那一批的肉品不代表就是跟受到檢驗的那一個實驗室的那一盒梅花豬肉片是同一批的肉品因為我們有溯源制度事實上是要根據他和尚的溯源"},{"start":682.108,"end":682.588,"text":"所以我覺得這個要講清楚喔"},{"start":697.876,"end":702.237,"text":"我想特別說明一下臺東施政我所取的這40個樣品他是在同一天在不同的地區去取樣"},{"start":719.322,"end":737.734,"text":"那針對這個同一批的部分那麼同一批的部分大概只有兩個一個是梅花肉一個是小排的部分所以他的梅花肉這個樣品檢測出來西部特留這個樣品就是那一盒那一塊肉那後續他做檢驗的時候都是在這一塊肉裡面重複去做這些相關的一個檢測"},{"start":738.675,"end":756.472,"text":"那基本上在一個比較正常的一個檢測的邏輯上面來如果它的檢測的量是非常低的時候應該去尋求前後批或者是同批的其他不同的透過履歷追溯其他不同的同品項產品再去做確認這樣的話會是會是比較嚴謹的"},{"start":758.234,"end":758.995,"text":"是不是才是比較嚴謹的做法?"},{"start":784.927,"end":803.168,"text":"對,我們未來可能還是要跟地方合作,把這個SOP建立好,像委員所建立的一樣。如果他們檢驗出什麼東西的話,也來通報中央,中央也來幫忙做這個double check,或者更完整的來把這個資料呈現出來。我在請問院長,我剛剛講的1月15日到2月2日,他們兩個禮拜,"},{"start":804.87,"end":806.051,"text":"實驗室操作準則和"},{"start":834.232,"end":835.434,"text":"通報然後復驗這個部分我們會再來精進"},{"start":838.78,"end":866.745,"text":"好那所以我再提醒一次喔很多委員拿了說所謂已經流入市面的什麼那些幾千包的這個肉品可能就是那個破口我覺得這個行政院中央我們呢基於科學的這個依據我覺得要講清楚這個一定要講清楚不要造成民心的這個不安那個委員的那個委員喔我剛才講的時候有一點點比較講"},{"start":868.795,"end":892.144,"text":"講的比較大聲一點那實際上我們所有的食品的抽樣只要樣本數大於30的時候呢實際上它就具有代表性這就是一般的食安檢查的時候就用抽樣來檢查那沒有一個食安的檢查是要做100%的這個是不合科學根據的也不合統計學的理論根據的"},{"start":893.663,"end":918.529,"text":"所以院長我覺得在面對任何的這個問題的時候我覺得我們要簡單直白讓人家聽得懂的話語來解釋像剛剛我們的一番討論我覺得就會讓人家更清楚的明白說中央是有誠意而且中央是負責任的在維護國人的食安對不對最後10秒我只有兩件事今天受這個影響叫台糖是國營事業"},{"start":920.149,"end":927.396,"text":"如果換作其他的私人民間企業可能就撐不住了。這一件事情我覺得應該要有研議。"},{"start":950.692,"end":956.165,"text":"謝謝何委員欣純的質詢。接下來我們請登記第13號李委員燕秀質詢。"}]}},{"id":"149138","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149138","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb63e638ed67c69ee78b347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a62a9b6660b240c8ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"16:03:15 - 16:19:10","影片長度":"00:15:55","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":955,"end_time":"2024-02-23T16:19:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T16:03:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":710,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（16時3分）謝謝韓院長，是不是可以請陳院長上台？"],["主席：請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：王委員好，恭喜你當選立委。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝院長。","院長，我們今天是要用科學的方式，而且很客觀地來探討民進黨執政8年的食安問題。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["王委員育敏：這份報告的封面叫做「總檢討專案報告」，請教院長，整個報告我看了，8年的總檢討報告只有9頁，但是我看不到檢討！裡面通篇沒有任何檢討，但是卻對馬政府時期提了非常多的食安事件！這有點離題了吧？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我有檢討，我有說我們未來要怎麼精進。但是通常食安是不斷地精進，我們要看我們在過去的8年……在檢討過去8年，我們還是有講有2個事件啊！"],["王委員育敏：你有檢討，是不是？檢討了什麼？院長可不可以告訴本席？"],["陳院長建仁：我的報告如果詳細看，我們有2件還是系統性的問題；我在文章裡面有寫。但是這2件系統性的問題我們要來比較到底是否有所進步。我們要看有沒有進步，所以我們就比較前8年的情況……"],["王委員育敏：怎麼會檢討前8年呢？要檢討當然是你任內這8年，你要跟自己做比較嘛！檢討8年前有意義嗎？","好。院長，我們切入正題……"],["陳院長建仁：比較……"],["王委員育敏：我就讓你看到……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我可以講一下嗎？"],["王委員育敏：我就讓你看到你們這8年到底有哪些食安事件好不好？我們一起來看……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我可不可以講一下？如果……"],["王委員育敏：我覺得民進黨這8年食安問題有兩件事情做得最不好，一個是源頭的控管破功，為什麼？因為在馬政府時期不會這樣做，但是在蔡政府時期開放了很多，從源頭，民眾有疑慮的物品繼續開放進來，第一個是什麼……"],["陳院長建仁：馬總統的時候也有。"],["王委員育敏：我們就是……"],["陳院長建仁：牛肉。"],["王委員育敏：美豬，含有萊劑的美豬直接進口進來。另外一個，在日本災區的這一些食品，有核輻射的風險疑慮的食品，也把它開放進來。另外還有什麼？農藥竟然是放寬殘留的標準。另外一個，禁用的……"],["陳院長建仁：檢驗的結果都是合格。"],["王委員育敏：氟派瑞，從禁用變成是開放。本席現在是在告訴你，所以請院長先不要插話，第一個就是源頭的部分破功，你從源頭的管控變成源頭的開放。另外一個破功是什麼？加強查驗的部分也破功，包括雞蛋芬普尼的事件，我們可以看到超標，這個當時也是一個很重大的食安事件。另外還有去年我們看到美豬進來之後改標、洗產地，這個問題也非常地嚴重。還有現在的蘇丹紅，正在燒的蘇丹紅，這是你邊境查驗沒有查出來，從源頭這邊沒有守住，然後讓它放進來，這個問題也是非常地嚴重。還有今天很多人提到的，臺中驗出來有一包台糖的豬肉含有瘦肉精，但是我們現在整個行政系統，包括民進黨的委員在打擊的是誰？是第一線的食安人員……"],["陳院長建仁：不是。"],["王委員育敏：我們所有的加強查驗最需要的是什麼？是食安人員，結果這個事件為什麼讓食安人員委屈落淚？就是打擊到食安人員的士氣，所以我要說民進黨這8年執政，在源頭的部分沒有守住，還主動開放，另外在查驗的部分也查得不夠澈底。接下來我要直接問院長幾個問題……"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["王委員育敏：第一個問題……"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["王委員育敏：我要先請教你美豬的問題……"],["陳院長建仁：院長，我們是不是互相可以回答？"],["王委員育敏：我沒有問的時候，當然就不需要回答，院長。"],["陳院長建仁：不是喔！規定不是這樣……"],["王委員育敏：我有請問院長的時候才要回答，不是什麼呢？"],["陳院長建仁：規定是這一個時間是2個人共用的。"],["王委員育敏：院長，委員有問院長的時候，你才需要回答，我沒有問，你為什麼需要回答呢？"],["主席：跟院士報告一下，也跟王委員報告一下，我們現在這個是專案報告，所以是官員、委員共同使用詢答時間15分鐘，特別也來報告一下。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！所以我也可以回答。"],["王委員育敏：是，現在我還有問題要問你啊！我問你的時候你可以回答，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，不是，這一個時間是我可以回答。"],["王委員育敏：我請問你，本席問你……"],["陳院長建仁：剛才你講的開放美豬進口……"],["王委員育敏：美豬112年……"],["陳院長建仁：馬總統的時候就開放美牛進口……"],["王委員育敏：我們進口了多少美國豬肉？"],["陳院長建仁：你剛才講的這一些源頭管控……"],["王委員育敏：院長，請回答本席的問題，112年進口多少美國豬肉？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得你這樣不公平啊！因為剛才講過兩邊都可以回答。"],["王委員育敏：本席問你問題，你為什麼不回答呢？112年進口多少美國豬肉你知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：1.15萬噸啊！"],["王委員育敏：多少？"],["陳院長建仁：1.15萬噸。"],["王委員育敏：是，換算成我們臺灣的豬的話，你知道大概有幾頭豬嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我不太清楚，這個不是我的專業。"],["王委員育敏：大概有九萬多頭，那我就問你，這一些豬肉都到哪裡去了？"],["陳院長建仁：這個豬肉當然就是肉產品啊！工廠啊！等等啊！都會使用啊！對。"],["王委員育敏：都會使用？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員育敏：都有標示出來嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：美豬都要……"],["薛部長瑞元：需要標示。"],["王委員育敏：都有標示喔？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["王委員育敏：是喔？好，那請回答本席的問題，去年消基會自己在市面上查了289件，它去抽這些所有的加工品，沒有一件標美豬。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有就沒有。"],["王委員育敏：沒有就沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊！"],["王委員育敏：沒有就沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：不然一定要說有也很奇怪啊！"],["王委員育敏：你知道我們現在……我剛剛已經講過喔！你進口美豬的數量是高達一千多萬公斤，等同是九萬多頭豬這樣的數量，結果在我們的市面上沒有一件我們的加工品有標示豬肉是美豬，這合理嗎？這合理嗎？更別忘了去年10月爆發出來的，就是把美豬都改成什麼？標加拿大豬，已經被查出來了，那這件事情在去年10月這麼嚴重的時候……"],["陳院長建仁：消基會是抽樣的檢查，這個檢查……"],["王委員育敏：我問一下部長，你說要去改善這樣的情況，現在改善了多少？當時開放美豬進來，行政院信誓旦旦清楚標示，這個是你們管制的原則，結果現在市面上完全看不到美豬，那麼「清楚標示」跑去哪裡了？"],["陳院長建仁：你給他回答。"],["王委員育敏：請說。"],["薛部長瑞元：消基會去查的只不過其中一部分，它沒有查到的話，就是它沒有查到，其他的部分當然有，因為我們有輸入之後流向的情況……"],["王委員育敏：好，你提供給本席一個報告，這一千多萬公斤的美豬流向到哪裡，你現在可以口頭報告嗎？譬如是到哪一個加工產業，還是有到軍方，還是到哪裡？這些美豬到底流向是哪裡？可不可以有一個約略，你現在就告訴本席？"],["薛部長瑞元：我想會後是不是我們把書面……"],["陳院長建仁：會後我們給委員一個報告。"],["王委員育敏：會後？那麼現在部長你掌握多少？到哪裡去了？我覺得民眾有知的權利啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：我知道有追蹤它的流向，但是到哪裡去，我不會背起來。"],["陳院長建仁：美牛……"],["王委員育敏：它大致的狀況，你都沒有掌握？譬如變成是加工品，還是什麼樣的產品？"],["薛部長瑞元：我不可能背這種東西啦，好不好？"],["王委員育敏：不可能背這樣的東西？這個是……"],["陳院長建仁：美豬進來，它會有不同的銷售管道，這樣的管道五花八門，你要一個部會首長去把它記起來……"],["王委員育敏：你總是舉得出幾個類型吧！譬如去做水餃、做貢丸、做肉包，還是進到哪一個系統？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員先說明一下。"],["王委員育敏：好。"],["陳代理部長駿季：整個豬肉進口裡面，美國豬肉占比大概是12%，大部分的豬肉……"],["王委員育敏：它現在是第三大，美豬現在是整個進口豬肉的第三大。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。加拿大是將近四成，西班牙大概兩成五，美國大概是一成一左右，大概是這個數字。"],["王委員育敏：對，第三大。"],["陳代理部長駿季：現在進口的部分，因為國人習慣鮮食的肉的部分，都是溫體豬肉比較多一點，大概有七成的豬肉都是用溫體的方式，其他的是加工品，加工品的部分，國內不足……"],["王委員育敏：所以都到加工品區了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：大部分的進口豬肉都到加工的系統，加工的系統有不同的……"],["王委員育敏：現在改標的問題有沒有很嚴重？你的意思是美豬都進到加工系統，但是按照我們的食安法，進到加工系統，你的原料還是要標示是美豬，為什麼消基會抽到的樣品裡面，很多的加工品還是看不到「美豬」這兩個字？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想那個是產地標示的問題，產地標示因為不同國家進來的話，根據它的標示，它會標示它的來源國嘛！"],["王委員育敏：對啊，一定要標示。"],["陳代理部長駿季：剛才衛福部部長所提到的，就是消基會只是抽檢一些部分，沒有抽到表示它那邊沒有嘛！"],["王委員育敏：你可不可以提供本席有標示美豬的這些產品到底在哪裡？還有本席要求，剛剛部長說的，你既然都有掌握所有流向，我要知道這一些流向到哪裡，然後是不是還有繼續改標、標示不實的問題，這個是食安，國人非常關注的。去年10月才爆發有嚴重的改標，把美豬都改成加拿大，今年到底情況是不是還是一樣，還是在你們的稽查之後，已經有改善？本席要一個完整的報告。接下來……"],["陳院長建仁：改標的情形是我們主動去偵測出來的。"],["王委員育敏：改標就是改標嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：是我們主動的……"],["王委員育敏：不管是不是主動偵測出來……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，這表示我們在食安的管控上就是要積極主動，積極主動去發現有這樣的錯誤。"],["王委員育敏：因為你當時承諾民眾就是要清楚標示，結果沒有清楚標示，變成是改標、洗產地，這是第一個問題。"],["陳院長建仁：業者改標是業者的錯誤。"],["王委員育敏：第二個是蘇丹紅的問題，到目前為止，中央源頭管控失靈，邊境查驗破功，直接讓它長驅直入。這就是從境外直接進來的，目前有1,750公斤全臺流竄，到目前為止，這是最終的數字，還是數字還要繼續上升？到底目前衛福部掌握多少？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前有21家進口的是這個有問題的產品，所以我們這21家通通都已經禁止進口3個月，至於已經過來的，因為之前沒有百分之百抽批的，所以那些部分，我們正在後續追蹤和檢查。"],["王委員育敏：好，你們現在只查半年，只查到半年，為什麼只設定這半年？如果過去只有50%的抽驗，以現在看起來，這個大量失控的情況，還有更多可能是不合格在市面上流竄，你們為什麼目前只清查近半年172批，還會再往前追查嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會繼續追查。"],["王委員育敏：好，本席要求要繼續追查，因為這個不單純，這表示它有大量其實都是含有致癌物的蘇丹紅已經進到臺灣裡面，這一個食安事件，我也要求你們必須要徹查清楚。另外一個，今天很多人提到臺中的食安事件。院長，你是聖騎士，也是中研院院士，還擔任過中研院的副院長，但我剛剛聽到你在答復民進黨委員的時候，你是先設箭再畫靶。"],["陳院長建仁：我不是！"],["王委員育敏：你已經心中有心證了！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["王委員育敏：你就是認定這件事情就是實驗室污染，是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我可以回答嗎？"],["王委員育敏：可以。"],["陳院長建仁：給我完整的時間。"],["王委員育敏：你有沒有認定這是實驗室污染？是不是？你剛剛的答案，本席聽起來就是這樣。"],["陳院長建仁：現在我們所有的肉品檢驗，不管是在飼養場、屠宰場或者是賣場，都沒有檢驗出來西布特羅，而西布特羅進口以後只分布在24家的實驗室，而且所有的檢驗，豬肉有的就只有在臺中市政府這個實驗室的那一塊肉。"],["王委員育敏：不是臺中市政府實驗室的這一塊肉，他們是到國防部的福利社去抽檢出來的，好不好！"],["陳院長建仁：所以它抽檢出來以後，其他同一批的豬肉統統測出來是測不到西布特羅。"],["王委員育敏：院長，容我糾正你，同一批的豬肉裡面，你知道嗎，臺中這邊三百多公斤裡面，當他們要再次回到福利社去抽的時候，他們統統都已經賣光了，他們已經賣完了，所以它的這一批裡面……你這樣子的推論會不會太大膽？"],["陳院長建仁：我們有履歷溯源，所以我們可以知道哪一個是同一批……"],["王委員育敏：所以院長現在就是認定，這就是實驗室污染，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：所以這一個很重要的在臺中市政府檢驗出來以後……"],["王委員育敏：你回答本席就好，你已經認定這就是實驗室污染，是或不是？"],["陳院長建仁：這一個可能性，我排除掉其他可能污染的來源以後，我們知道，就是臺中市政府實驗室的這一塊豬肉測得出來有西布特羅。"],["王委員育敏：那院長就不是科學家。"],["陳院長建仁：那請問，這個西布特羅從哪裡來？"],["王委員育敏：你如果是科學家，你應該知道2月6號、2月19號中央複驗，還有審查實驗室已經在驗……"],["陳院長建仁：你同一塊肉當然測得出來啊！"],["王委員育敏：流程如果沒有問題……"],["陳院長建仁：你測的是同一塊肉，當然測得出來啊！"],["王委員育敏：流程是不是沒有問題？檢驗的流程是不是沒有問題？部長，你回答。"],["薛部長瑞元：上架之後是沒有問題，但是上架之前的我們不知道。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員育敏：你說檢驗的流程沒有問題，我在問你實驗室的檢驗流程有沒有問題？"],["薛部長瑞元：不是，甚至檢體上……"],["王委員育敏：你2月6號說沒有問題，你現在要改口嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：上架之後沒有問題，所以我那個時候就講，前處理要開始查。"],["陳院長建仁：前處理要開始查啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，要開始查清楚。"],["王委員育敏：那現在真相未明的情況，院長你急於定調一定就是實驗室污染，我只問你，這樣子對第一線的食安人員公平嗎？公平嗎？科學的證據，專家學者會議開完了嗎？還沒開完！結論出來了嗎？還沒有，但是我們的行政院院長……"],["陳院長建仁：我們排除了所有的來源，統統沒有，你看今天的排除法是怎麼……"],["王委員育敏：今天在立法院回復所有的民進黨委員，院長已經定調就是實驗室的污染，這就是典型的先射箭再畫靶。"],["陳院長建仁：這是邏輯，這就是科學的推論……"],["王委員育敏：你已經定調的時候，專家會議要怎麼開？專家會議還需要開嗎？還需要再積極查證嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：要啊！專家會議要去看實驗室哪一個地方出現問題，才會檢驗出來……"],["王委員育敏：院長都說我自己已經排除，我排除了這個、我排除了那個，這個就是實驗室污染……"],["陳院長建仁：這就是科學。為什麼要專家？這就是科學啊！"],["王委員育敏：所以你就是定調，這是實驗室污染，對不對？你已經定調了嘛！對不對？是或不是？"],["陳院長建仁：我是覺得只有這一個實驗室的……你一直在給我貼標籤……"],["王委員育敏：我沒有貼標籤……"],["陳院長建仁：我說只有實驗室的這一塊肉……"],["王委員育敏：是你的回答讓大家有這樣的看法，是你的回答讓大家有這樣的看法，而且……"],["陳院長建仁：實驗室的這一塊肉檢查出來西布特羅，而其他的地方沒有西布特羅……"],["王委員育敏：最後，我讓院長看一下食安人員的眼淚。我這張圖要告訴院長，食安人員查緝食安中央、地方一條心。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯，我同意。"],["王委員育敏：今天不應該是回過頭去打擊食安人員的士氣……"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有打擊喔！委員你這樣講話，我不同意……"],["王委員育敏：今天第一線的人員為什麼要落淚？"],["陳院長建仁：我完全不同意你的講法，我們中央和地方是合作的。"],["王委員育敏：他為什麼哭泣？因為他受委屈……"],["陳院長建仁：你這樣子是故意挑撥離間！"],["王委員育敏：因為他受委屈，所以我要提醒院長……"],["陳院長建仁：我不贊成，挑撥離間！我完全不贊成……"],["王委員育敏：所以我要提醒院長，食安人員，你要守護他，不是打擊他……"],["陳院長建仁：我完完全全同意啊！挑撥離間！"],["王委員育敏：要不然未來的食安工作，完全沒有辦法讓食安人員盡心盡力去查。請守護食安人員的尊嚴，不要打擊他們的士氣！"],["主席：謝謝王委員育敏的質詢。再次跟院會報告，這次是專案的食安問題報告，採用即問即答，要拜託委員跟官員之間互相尊重，共同遵守相關質詢規定，再次感謝大家。","接下來我們請何委員欣純質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","李坤城","洪孟楷","洪申翰","廖偉翔","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳沛憶","王育敏","何欣純","李彥秀","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009","1130401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「民進黨政府執政八年臺灣食安問題總檢討」專案報告並備質詢─ 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art":154.269,"end":176.525,"text":"另外一個的破空是什麼?加強查驗的部分也破空。包括這個雞蛋分埔泥的事件,我們可以看到超標。這個當時也是一個很重大的食安事件。另外還有去年我們看到美豬進來之後改標洗產地,這個問題也非常的嚴重。還有現在的蘇丹紅。"},{"start":177.546,"end":203.382,"text":"正在燒的蘇丹紅這是你邊境查驗沒有查出來從源頭這邊沒有守住然後讓他放進來這個問題也是非常的嚴重還有今天很多人提到的臺中驗出來有一包臺場的豬肉含有瘦肉精但是呢我們現在整個行政系統包括民進黨的委員在打擊的是誰是第一線的食安人員"},{"start":204.082,"end":204.762,"text":"我可以回答嗎我可以回答嗎"},{"start":232.387,"end":233.988,"text":"跟院士報告一下,跟王委員報告一下,我們現在這個專案報告"},{"start":253.044,"end":272.07,"text":"所以是官員、委員共同使用這許大時4、5分鐘。所以我也可以回答啊。現在我還有問題要問你啊,我問你的時候你可以回答好不好。沒有沒有不是,這一個時間是我可以回答,剛才你講的開放美豬進口,馬塗同的時候就開放美油進口啦。那你剛才講的這些源頭管控。院長請回答本席的問題。"},{"start":277.532,"end":306.59,"text":"一百一十二年進口多少美國豬肉?一百一十二年進口多少美國豬肉你知道嗎?一點一五萬噸啊。多少?一點一五萬噸。是。換算成是我們台灣的豬的話你知道大概有幾頭豬嗎?我不太清楚。這個不是我的專業。大概有九萬多頭。那我就問你這一些豬肉都到哪裡去了?這個豬肉當然就是"},{"start":307.566,"end":307.926,"text":"沒有一件標美珠。"},{"start":338.499,"end":363.372,"text":"沒有就沒有沒有就沒有沒有就沒有你知道我們現在我剛已經講過你進口的美豬的數量是高達一千多萬公斤等同是九萬多頭豬這樣的數量結果在我們的市面上沒有一件我們的加工品"},{"start":364.412,"end":390.308,"text":"有寫豬肉標示豬肉是美豬這合理嗎?這合理嗎?更別忘了去年的10月爆發出來的就是把美豬都改成什麼?加拿大豬已經被查出來了那這件事情在去年10月這麼嚴重的時候這個我問一下這個部長你說要去改善這樣的情況現在改善了多少?"},{"start":391.869,"end":420.328,"text":"當時開放美豬進來行政院信誓旦旦清楚標示這個是你們管制的原則結果現在市面上完全看不到美豬那清楚標示跑去哪裡了?那個當然消極會去查的只不過其中一部分那他沒有查到的話就是他沒有查到他其他的部分當然有因為我們有這個輸入之後的"},{"start":420.788,"end":449.097,"text":"好,那你提供給本席一個報告。這一千多萬公斤的美豬流向到哪裡?你現在可以口頭報告嗎?譬如說是到哪一個加工產業?還是有到軍方?還是到哪裡?這些美豬到底流向是哪裡?可不可以有一個約略,你現在就告訴本席。這我想就說我們會後會有一個報告。會後,那現在部長你掌握多少?到哪裡去了?我覺得民眾有知的權利啊。我知道說這個有這個來追蹤它的流向。"},{"start":449.821,"end":459.576,"text":"但是到哪裡去我不會背起來。大致的你都沒有掌握,譬如說變成是加工品啊還是是什麼樣的產品。我不可能背這種東西啦好不好。"},{"start":459.963,"end":462.605,"text":"我跟委員先說明一下整個豬肉的進口裡面美國豬肉大概占比是大概12大部分的豬肉"},{"start":486.598,"end":490.621,"text":"現在目前進口因為國人習慣先食的肉的部分都是溫體豬肉比較多一點那大概有7成的豬肉都是用溫體的方式"},{"start":510.197,"end":527.571,"text":"那其他的是加工品那加工品的部分大概大部分的進口豬肉都是到加工的一個系統那現在改標的問題有沒有很嚴重你的意思是說美豬都進到加工系統但是按照我們的食安法進到加工系統你的原料還是要標示是美豬"},{"start":528.471,"end":547.806,"text":"那為什麼消基會抽到的樣品裡面很多加工品還是看不到每一種這兩個?我想那個是產地標示的問題那產地標示因為不同國家進來的話根據他的標示他會標示他的來源國嘛那剛才衛生部部長所提到的就是消基會只是抽檢一些部分沒有抽到表示他那邊沒有"},{"start":548.046,"end":564.606,"text":"你可不可以提供本席就是有標示美洲的這些產品到底在哪裡?還有本席要求剛剛部長說你既然都有掌握所有流向,我要知道這些流向到哪裡?然後是不是還有繼續改標,標示不實的問題?這個是食安國人非常關注的。"},{"start":565.106,"end":580.026,"text":"那去年10月才爆發有嚴重的改標,把美豬都改成加拿大。那今年到底情況是不是還是一樣?還是在你的稽查之後已經有改善,本時要一個完整的報告?接下來... 那個改標的提醒是我們主動去偵測出來的。"},{"start":581.908,"end":586.57,"text":"改標就是改標嗎?不管是主動偵測出來,因為你當時承諾民眾就是要積極主動去發現葉橙是改標,那葉橙改標是葉橙的中午。第二個蘇丹紅的問題"},{"start":598.474,"end":599.215,"text":"目前有21家進口的是這有問題的產品。"},{"start":622.697,"end":639.097,"text":"那所以我們這21天通通都已經禁止進口3個月那已經過來的因為之前的話有沒有百分之百抽屁的所以那些部分我們現在正在後續再解釋好那你們現在只查"},{"start":639.617,"end":655.987,"text":"只查半年只查到半年為什麼只設定這半年如果說過去只有50%的抽驗以現在看起來這個大量失控的情況還有更多可能是不合格在市面上流竄你們為什麼目前只清查近半年172批還會再往前追查嗎"},{"start":657.267,"end":676.632,"text":"我們會繼續追查本席要求要繼續追查因為這個不單純這個表示他有大量其實都是含有致癌物的蘇丹紅已經大量進到臺灣裡面這個實案事件我也要求你們必須要徹查清楚另外一個今天很多人提到的臺中的這個實案事件"},{"start":677.392,"end":705.354,"text":"院長你是聖騎士也是中研院院士還擔任過中研院的副院長但我剛剛在聽到你在答覆民進黨委員的時候你是先射箭再劃靶你已經心中有心證了你就是認定這件事情就是實驗室污染是不是我可以回答給我完整的時間你有沒有認定這是實驗室污染是不是你剛剛的答案本席聽起來就是這樣"},{"start":706.418,"end":730.748,"text":"現在我們所有的肉品檢驗不管是在飼養場、屠宰場或者是賣場都沒有檢驗出來西部特羅而西部特羅進口以後只分布在24家的實驗室而且所有的檢驗豬肉有的就只有在台中市政府這個實驗室的那一塊肉"},{"start":731.408,"end":756.991,"text":"不是臺中市政府實驗室這塊肉,他們是到國防部的福利社區抽檢出來的。所以他抽檢出來以後,其他的同一批的豬肉通通測出來,是測不到西普特摩。同一批的豬肉裡面,你知道嗎?臺中這邊300多公斤裡面,當他們要再次回到福利社區抽的時候,他們通通都已經賣光了。"},{"start":758.052,"end":766.576,"text":"他們已經賣完了所以他的這一批裡面你這樣子的推論會不會太大膽?會不會太大膽?所以院長現在就是認定這就是實驗室污染對不對?你回答本席就好你已經認定這就是實驗室污染"},{"start":777.2,"end":797.051,"text":"這一個可能性所排除掉其他可能汙染的來源以後我們知道說就是臺中市政府實驗室的這一塊豬肉測得出來有西部特柔那請問這個西部特柔從哪裡來你如果是科學家你一定要知道2月6號、2月19號中央復驗還有審查實驗室已經認證流程如果沒有問題流程是不是沒有問題"},{"start":803.786,"end":825.999,"text":"檢驗的流程是不是沒有問題部長你回答上架之後是沒有問題但是上架之前我們不知道你說檢驗的流程沒有問題我在問你實驗室檢驗流程有沒有問題2月6號說沒有問題你現在要改口嗎上架之後沒有問題所以我那時候就要講前處理要開始查"},{"start":827.113,"end":850.68,"text":"前處理要開始查了那現在真相未明的情況院長你急於定調一定就是實驗室污染我只問你這樣子對第一線實案人員公平嗎?科學的證據專家學者會議開完了嗎?還沒開完結論出來了嗎?還沒有但是我們的行政院院長今天在立法院回復"},{"start":852.04,"end":857.708,"text":"所有的民進黨委員、院長已經禁掉就是實驗室的污染這就是典型的先設建再劃板當院長已經禁掉的時候專家會議要怎麼開?專家會議還需要開嗎?"},{"start":867.581,"end":870.624,"text":"現在會議要去看實驗室,哪一個地方出現問題才會檢驗出來。這就是科學。為什麼要專家這就是科學呢?這就是科學。"},{"start":882.817,"end":899.576,"text":"我是覺得只有這個實驗室的,你一直在給我貼標籤,我說只有實驗室的這一塊肉檢查出,是你的回答讓大家有這樣的看法,是你的回答讓大家有這樣的看法,實驗室的這一塊肉檢查出來吸住了,其他人都沒有吸住喔。"},{"start":903.36,"end":921.731,"text":"我這張圖要告訴院長施安人員查緝施安中央地方一條心今天不應該是回過頭去打擊施安人員的事情我沒有打擊喔委員你這樣講話我不同意今天第一線的人員為什麼要落淚我們中央地方是合作的因為他受委屈故意挑撥離間謝謝"},{"start":944.295,"end":954.603,"text":"謝謝王委員育敏的質詢。再一次跟院會報告。這次是專案的、實案問題的報告。採用疑問疑答。"}]}},{"id":"149137","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149137","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb69395e3203607a0dfb347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6f8d164e007fd7b815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"15:36:14 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15:51:38","影片長度":"00:15:24","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":924,"end_time":"2024-02-23T15:51:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T15:36:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":640,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（15時36分）我請行政院院長。"],["主席：請行政院陳院長答復。"],["陳院長建仁：吳委員，恭喜你！"],["吳委員沛憶：院長好。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["吳委員沛憶：院長，我接續剛剛前面委員的發言，我想本會多數的委員包括我吳沛憶、包括我們會議主席韓國瑜院長在內，我們都不敢自稱我們是食安的專家，但是依照我們的法定職權，我們可不可以站在這裡來質詢我們政府對食安的管理？"],["陳院長建仁：當然可以。"],["吳委員沛憶：當然是可以。"],["陳院長建仁：而且必要。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯，但是我們質詢應該本於什麼呢？我們應該要依法，依照我們對公務機關、實務、公共行政的瞭解、依照公共行政的辦法來提出我們的質疑，目的是在於我們希望可以釐清過程、目的是在於我們希望可以讓我們政府的運作每一次的執行可以更加進步改善。所以剛剛前面有委員提到說，在我們這一次臺中傳出天選之肉，在實驗室裡面有驗出這麼一盒的豬肉含有西布特羅，我們的中央包括農業部、包括衛福部等等的趕快來進行抽驗，同批次抽驗、不同批次抽驗等等我們都去做了；剛剛前面有委員說，即便在同批次肉品的抽驗當中，因為我們只抽驗出3%是未檢出的，那就代表有可能剩下的97%是有問題的。我想要請問院長，基於您過去對於科學背景的瞭解，剛剛這樣子的陳述，符不符合我們對科學調研的理解呢？"],["陳院長建仁：這個當然不符合嘛！因為同批次通常在食安的調查，就是同批次檢驗出來，如果你有一個樣本有，最好照走其他的同一批，但是同批次都沒有的時候，那就是表示是安全的嘛！所以他這樣的推論是不合理的啦！"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯，其實過去我在臺北市市議會擔任市議員，按照我對於我們政府機關相關檢驗辦法的瞭解，我們臺北市政府衛生局做食安檢驗的時候，我們向來也是做抽驗，不只是食安，例如我們的公安消防的檢查，也是做抽檢，這個道理其實很簡單，因為我們有科學的依據，按照抽驗的辦法告訴我們，只要我們做抽檢，我們對於結果能夠得出相關的推論。倘若我們認為所有的檢查都要逐科檢查、都要豬肉普篩，任何一個政府機關，不管是中央政府，還是地方政府，都不可能有辦法來運行，我們每天就在檢查就好，我們還需要執法單位嗎？我們還需要行政單位嗎？所以不管是按照科學的理解，還是我們對於行政部門的理解，剛剛上述的陳述方法都是不符合現實的，但是我還是想要來釐清，因為我們對於科學的理解，其實不只是主觀我們想怎麼樣就怎麼樣。我讀過一本書，這本書裡面提到幾句話說，人類擁有能夠探索未知與思辨的頭腦，每當不尋常的事情發生時，我們常會思索發生的原因是什麼，我們要瞭解因果關係，探究問題發生的原因，這是解決問題的先決條件。請問院長，這一本書你有沒有讀過？"],["陳院長建仁：這是我寫的「因果螺旋」。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，這是你寫的「因果螺旋」。"],["陳院長建仁：所以因果關係的判定很重要。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，我相信陳建仁院士跟陳建仁院長對於科學都會相當注重。臺中檢驗出這麼一盒豬肉當然是一件不尋常的事情，今天在本會裡面，很多討論是關於臺中市政府2月2號對外發布這個訊息，這個時間點究竟太快、太急、倉促還是太慢了？我個人認為這個時間點是慢了，因為事實上，根據我們後續得到的資料，臺中市政府第一次檢驗出這一盒豬肉裡面含有微量西布特羅的時間是1月15號，請問1月15號到2月2號，臺中市政府對外發布訊息之前，我們中央有沒有收到任何來自臺中市政府的資訊？有沒有來請我們複驗？有沒有對我們進行通報？"],["薛部長瑞元：在這中間沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們中間完全沒有得到相關資訊。"],["薛部長瑞元：2月2號才接到訊息。"],["吳委員沛憶：但是事實上，根據我們現在食安相關的法規，確實對地方政府驗出這個不該檢驗出的東西時的通報，我們目前沒有明確規範SOP，我認為這一點是我們未來可以精進的。但是我仍然想要請教，因為不同地方政府的機關可能作法也會不同。倘若這件事件是發生在我們中央機關，當你們驗出有這麼一盒豬肉裡面含有西布特羅──根本不該出現的違禁品時，請問你們會怎麼做？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，其實臺中市政府自己的自治條例裡面就有，當你驗出來的時候，24小時之內要先通報，通報之後我們才有48小時可以處理，包括這些有風險產品的下架。"],["吳委員沛憶：倘若1月15號衛福部食藥署收到通報，請問你們會怎麼做？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果是在15號接收到通報的話，第一個，我們就有足夠的時間跟其他縣市採樣其他同批號的東西，再做一次檢驗、double check。"],["吳委員沛憶：倘若1月15號衛福部收到通報，在2月2號之前，我們能不能完成同批次、不同批次相關溯源的追查？有沒有辦法完成？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然可以。"],["吳委員沛憶：是可能完成的。不過還是要提醒部長，你剛剛提到臺中的自治條例裡面有規範，這個我們讓臺中市議會對臺中市政府進行問責。但是我們中央仍然可以把這個 SOP訂定得更加精確，我們希望這一次的個案可以讓我們記取教訓，因為這一次發生在臺中市政府，未來有可能發生在其他地方。"],["薛部長瑞元：對廠商有15天可以要求。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們能夠繼續精進。在這一段時間的查驗當中，我今天在專案報告裡面有看到，目前相關的檢驗一共是885件，全部是零檢出，是嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：這885件能不能再簡述一下包括哪些檢驗？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我們檢驗大概分為兩個部分，一個部分是畜牧場的豬隻跟飼料，另外一部分是肉品，整個檢出在前端養豬場的豬毛、豬血、豬隻跟飼料，大概有774件，農業部也抽了同一批肉品，其他部分是由衛福部處理，加起來是885件。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以我們到養豬場去驗了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：養豬場驗了296件未檢出，豬肉品市場我們驗了480件。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，肉品市場是在屠宰階段的時候，我們驗了480件。"],["吳委員沛憶：上市之前的未檢出，同批的肉品驗了4件未檢出，其他送驗肉品13件未檢出，這個還不包括台糖自己的相關檢驗。我們做了這麼多檢驗，總歸一句話，目前為止，除了臺中市實驗室那一盒肉以外，我們有沒有找到另外一塊肉裡面含有西布特羅？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：目前所有檢驗告訴我們的結果，就是這一個結果。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以目前我們的認定，其實跟臺中市政府盧秀燕市長的認定是雷同的，因為盧市長也說這是單一的個案。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳院長建仁：對，是個案。"],["吳委員沛憶：但是不代表我們應該要止步於此，這個個案一樣是引起國人這麼多的關心，所以這個個案的源頭究竟因果關係為何、為什麼會就只有這一盒肉裡面檢驗出西布特羅，接下來我希望我們一定要把它調查清楚，讓國人可以明白，可不可以做到？"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以，我們跟衛福部會一起來努力。"],["吳委員沛憶：整起事件裡面我認為讓我們感到最擔憂的是，食安應該是一個科學問題，但是食安現在被當作是一個政治事件在操作，為什麼我這樣說？我覺得非常的遺憾的是，就連本院很多同仁也進行不正確資訊的傳播。例如林德福委員說臺中這一盒肉不可能是單一個案，那我不知道他的依據來源是什麼，因為目前我們手邊握有的所有根據都告訴我們說這是一個單一個案。當然科學是有可能被推翻才叫做科學嘛，科學就是假設與檢驗，科學是有可能被推翻的，但我們手邊握有多少證據講多少話。截至目前為止，所有的科學依據包括臺中市政府的資料，都告訴我們說這是一個個案。所以我覺得非常的遺憾，我們立委都可以做評論，但不應該散布錯誤的資訊。再來，非常遺憾的，臺中市的羅廷瑋委員直接在網路上直播說這個飼料是有問題的，要去追查飼料廠。請問飼料我們有沒有查？"],["陳代理部長駿季：飼料有查。"],["吳委員沛憶：查驗的結果是什麼？"],["陳代理部長駿季：也都完全沒有，我們查了122件的飼料，飼料完全都沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：目前我們手邊所有的科學資料也告訴我們，飼料並沒有查出有問題。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：但是卻有立法委員公開的在網路上這樣去說，那會造成民眾錯誤的資訊，造成不必要的恐慌，我覺得非常的遺憾。所以我認為我們都可以來評論、都可以監督，但絕對不能去散播錯誤的訊息。這讓我想到前一陣子Linbay好油的事件，讓我們感到非常的遺憾，Linbay好油這個網路帳號事實上他是一個真人，過去就常常的對本土農業做出不實的指控，把食安拿來做政治操作，造成社會的恐慌，結果後來檢調查下去才發現原來他是一個騙子，甚至進行了自導自演，但是在這個過程當中，對於本土農業、對整個社會的信任感都已經造成了不可逆的傷害。所以我非常希望這次一定要把事情查清楚。","另外，我希望行政院要勇敢的站出來澄清，因為我知道在上一次單一的事件裡面，當時院長也被現在本院的成員羅智強委員告發，還好法院最後釐清了真相，不只是還給你一個公道，是還給真相一個公道。"],["陳院長建仁：對，真相最重要。"],["吳委員沛憶：未裁罰，所以我希望行政院還是要勇敢的出面澄清，不是為你們辯護，而是為事實辯護。事實是什麼我們就應該要清楚的來說明。剛剛我講到這個單一的事件，為什麼我說非常的遺憾，因為我當時也是臺北市議會的成員，當時這個事件有很多錯誤的資訊在社會上流傳，然後有我們的公職人員、政治人物拿來做政治操作，以至於當時的臺北市政府扛不住壓力，讓我們的小學生有半年的時間吃不到蛋，小學生在學校裡面有半年的時間，營養午餐是沒有辦法吃到蛋的，但是事後臺北市政府的查驗結果通通都是合格的，沒有一個查驗不合格。臺北市市長蔣萬安市長，大家都知道跟我們是不同黨派，但是事實不會因為顏色的不同而轉彎。所以我非常希望我們可以把事情查明清楚，並且我們要勇敢的為自己捍衛。所以我也要提醒院長，我剛剛講到這兩件事情，我們對於食安的成果有一項的預算來源是不是來自於前瞻基礎建設預算？"],["陳院長建仁：嗯，對。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們的前瞻預算裡面關於食安建設是多少經費？"],["陳院長建仁：在前瞻的建設，實際上食安的建設裡面是編列了相當多，就是要讓全國各縣市的食安檢驗都能夠越來越精準。"],["吳委員沛憶：前3期不包括未執行的，加總起來大概至少有40億，裡面就包括，也是在我們臺北市的食品藥物國家級實驗大樓，正在興建當中還未完工。我非常地期待它要完工，因為它能夠擴充非常多的功能，包括我們邊境查驗，還有我們檢驗效能的提升等等的這些計畫，都是前瞻基礎建設的挹注，讓我們這些年來能夠逐步提升。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：院長，我說的你認同嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：完全贊同，所以政府實際上在這8年來做很多。"],["吳委員沛憶：但是我們看到，現在口口聲聲說要捍衛食安立場的委員，當我們當年要提出前瞻基礎建設預算的時候，他們在這裡大力地阻擋，甚至不惜丟水球，用這種不理性的方式阻擋前瞻預算，但前瞻預算卻是我們食安這幾年成果很重要的一個基礎。所以我要提醒院長，前瞻基礎建設的亮點你們在去年才上網公告，我覺得動作太慢了，我希望未來不管是謠言的澄清，還是我們工作的成果，你都能夠更用力地向社會宣傳，讓大家能夠瞭解我們的工作成果，可以做到嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們來繼續努力。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員沛憶的質詢。","跟院會報告，我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（15時51分）","繼續開會（16時3分）"],["主席：報告院會，現在繼續開會。","請王委員育敏質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","李坤城","洪孟楷","洪申翰","廖偉翔","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳沛憶","王育敏","何欣純","李彥秀","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009","1130401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「民進黨政府執政八年臺灣食安問題總檢討」專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1130401_00012"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.03409375,"end":7.050968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7.050968750000001,"end":7.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.06784375,"end":8.485343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9.379718750000002,"end":11.809718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.11284375,"end":18.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.47971875,"end":18.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.50909375,"end":22.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.27221875,"end":32.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.22409375,"end":40.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.81784375,"end":41.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.868468750000005,"end":41.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.06659375,"end":42.876593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.28159375,"end":43.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.29409375,"end":46.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.82534375,"end":65.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.77596875,"end":68.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.04971875000001,"end":77.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.58409375000001,"end":82.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.24159375,"end":90.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.90284375,"end":100.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.38221875,"end":107.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.34346875,"end":107.25471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.82846875000001,"end":114.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.89909375,"end":118.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.18971875000001,"end":128.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.78721875,"end":134.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.09846875,"end":135.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.75659375,"end":138.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.13159375,"end":142.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.55721875,"end":152.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.91846875000002,"end":153.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.20534375,"end":162.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.22909375,"end":172.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.99534375000002,"end":176.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.47596875000002,"end":185.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.87534375,"end":201.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.59471875000003,"end":199.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.77159375000002,"end":208.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.55534375000002,"end":227.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.99534375000002,"end":233.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.54721875,"end":235.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.89284375000003,"end":237.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.93909375,"end":238.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.89659375000002,"end":243.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.43596875000003,"end":244.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.85346875000002,"end":249.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.08471875,"end":265.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.13909375000003,"end":253.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.91346875,"end":266.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.22971875,"end":268.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.30971875,"end":271.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.97159375,"end":283.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.77971875000003,"end":290.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.92221875,"end":294.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.15346875,"end":298.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.48221875,"end":300.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.93784375,"end":300.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.46909375,"end":304.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":303.57846875,"end":305.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.60346875000005,"end":312.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.34909375,"end":318.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.93471875,"end":323.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.36846875000003,"end":340.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.44596875,"end":359.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.26284375,"end":353.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.97909375,"end":364.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.52721875000003,"end":362.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":362.74221875,"end":362.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.81784375,"end":368.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.61909375000005,"end":367.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.01971875000004,"end":371.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.6859687500000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院長我接續剛剛前面委員的發言我想本會多數的委員包括我吳沛憶包括我們會議主席韓國瑜院長在內我們都不敢自稱我們是食安的專家但是依照我們的法定職權我們可不可以站在這裡來質詢我們政府對食安的管理當然是可以而且必要"},{"start":43.322,"end":65.038,"text":"沒有錯,但是我們質詢應該本於什麼呢?我們應該要依法依照我們對公務機關、實務、公共行政的了解依照公共行政的辦法來提出我們的質疑目的是在於我們希望可以釐清過程目的是在於我們希望可以讓我們政府的運作每一次的執行可以更加的進步改善"},{"start":66.079,"end":89.951,"text":"所以說剛剛前面有委員提到說在我們這一次臺中傳出天選之肉在實驗室裡面有驗出這麼一盒的豬肉含有西部特羅那我們的中央包括農業部包括衛福部等等的趕快來進行抽驗同批次抽驗不同批次抽驗等等我們都去做了剛剛前面有委員說"},{"start":91.011,"end":117.854,"text":"即便在同批次肉品的抽驗當中因為我們只抽驗出3%是沒有未檢出的那就代表有可能剩下的97%那可能是有問題的我想要請問院長基於您過去對於科學背景的了解剛剛這樣子的陳述符不符合我們對科學調研的理解呢?"},{"start":118.634,"end":138.531,"text":"這個當然不符合嘛因為這個同批次通常在食品食安的調查就是同批次檢驗出來如果你有一個樣本有最好照其他的同一批但是同批次都沒有的時候那就是表示是安全的嘛所以他的這樣的推論是不合理的啦"},{"start":139.155,"end":162.18,"text":"沒有錯其實過去我在臺北市議會擔任市議員按照我對於我們政府機關相關的檢驗辦法的了解我們臺北市政府衛生局做食安檢驗的時候我們向來也是做抽驗不只是食安例如說我們的公安消防的檢查也是做抽檢這個道理其實很簡單因為我們有科學的依據"},{"start":163.24,"end":172.633,"text":"按照抽樣的辦法告訴我們只要我們做了抽檢我們能夠對結果能夠得出相關的推論因為倘若我們認為所有的檢查"},{"start":174.002,"end":200.516,"text":"都要竹科檢查都要豬肉普篩這個政府和一個政府機關不管是中央政府還是地方政府都不可能有辦法來運行我們每天就在檢查就好我們還需要執法單位嗎我們還需要行政單位嗎所以呢這個不管是按照科學的理解還是我們對於行政部門的理解剛剛這個上述的陳述方法都是不符合現實的那但是我還是想要來釐清喔"},{"start":202.217,"end":227.575,"text":"因為我們對科學的理解其實不只是主觀我們想怎麼樣就怎麼樣我讀過一本書這本書裡面提到幾句話說人類我們擁有能夠探索未知與思辨的頭腦每當一不尋常的事情發生時我們常會思索發生的原因是什麼我們要了解因果關係探究問題發生的原因"},{"start":228.195,"end":247.897,"text":"是解決問題的先決條件請問院長這一本書你有沒有讀過這是我寫的因果螺旋對這是因果螺旋所以因果關係判定很重要所以我相信陳建仁院士跟陳建仁院長對於科學都會有相當的注重台中檢驗出這麼一盒"},{"start":250.097,"end":250.117,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":267.278,"end":294.083,"text":"太慢了我個人認為這個時間點是慢了因為事實上根據我們後續得到的資料台中市政府第一次檢驗出這一盒豬肉裡面含有西部特羅微量的時間是在1月15號請問在1月15號到2月2號台中市政府對外發布訊息之前我們中央有沒有收到任何來自台中市政府的資訊"},{"start":296.226,"end":311.811,"text":"有沒有來請我們做復驗?有沒有來對我們進行通報?我們中間是完全沒有得到相關資訊的。但是事實上根據我們現在食安相關的法規確實對地方政府驗出來"},{"start":313.636,"end":339.348,"text":"這個不該檢驗出的東西的時候的通報我們目前沒有明確規範的SOP所以我認為這一點是我們未來可以去精進的但是我仍然想要請教因為不同的地方政府的機關可能做法也會不同倘若這件事件是發生在我們中央的機關當你們驗出來有這麼一盒的豬肉裡面含有西部特羅根本不該出現的違禁品的時候請問你們會怎麼做"},{"start":341.762,"end":363.124,"text":"跟委員報告,其實台中市政府他自己的自治條例裡面就有,當你驗出來的時候24小時之內要先通報。通報之後的話我們才有48小時可以做處理,包括這些有風險產品的下降。倘若在1月15號我們衛福部食藥署收到通報,請問你們會怎麼做?"},{"start":365.458,"end":381.685,"text":"如果是在15號接受到通報的話,第一個我們就有足夠的時間跟這個其他的縣市去採樣其他同批號的東西來再做一次檢驗,double check。"},{"start":383.237,"end":410.609,"text":"談論一月十五號我們衛福部收到通報在二月二號之前我們能不能夠完成同批次不同批次相關的溯源的追查有沒有辦法完成是可能完成的不過部長還是要提醒你你剛提到說臺中的這個自治條例裡面有規範那這個我們讓臺中市議會去對臺中市政府進行問責但是我們中央我們仍然是可以把這個SOP定定的更加精確因為我們希望我們希望這不只是"},{"start":411.249,"end":435.581,"text":"這一次的個案可以讓我們記取教訓嗎?這一次發生在台中市政府,未來有可能發生在其他地方政府。我想我們能夠繼續來精進。在我們這段時間的查驗當中,我今天在專案報告裡面有看到,我們目前是相關的檢驗一共是885件,那全部是零檢出,是嗎?這885件能不能再簡述一下包括了哪些的檢驗?"},{"start":437.903,"end":465.526,"text":"我跟委員說明就是我們在檢驗的部分大概分為兩個部分一個部分是在畜牧場的豬隻跟飼料的部分那另外一部分是在肉品的部分那整個的一個檢出的部分在前端的養豬場的豬毛豬血豬隻的部分跟飼料的部分大概有大概774件然後因為農業部的部分也抽了同一批的肉品那其他的部分是由衛福部加起來是885的部分"},{"start":466.783,"end":487.865,"text":"好,所以我們到養豬場去驗了嘛。對。 驗了沒有?養豬場驗了296件,未檢出。對。 豬肉品市場我們驗了480。對,肉品市場是在屠宰階段的時候,我們也驗了480。在上市之前也未檢出。同批的肉品驗了4件,未檢出。其他送驗肉品13件未檢出。這個還不包括台糖相關自己的檢驗。"},{"start":488.746,"end":515.409,"text":"所以我們做了這麼多的檢驗總歸一句話目前為止除了台中市實驗室那一盒肉以外我們有沒有找到另外一塊肉裡面還有希夫特羅沒有目前所有的檢驗告訴我們結果就是這個結果所以我們目前我們的認定其實跟台中市政府盧學仁市長認定是雷同的因為盧市長也說這是一個個案這是一個單一的個案但是不代表我們應該要止步於此這個個案"},{"start":517.754,"end":537.848,"text":"一樣是引起國人這麼多的關心所以這個個案的源頭究竟它的因果關係為何為什麼會就這麼的發生這一盒肉裡面檢驗出西部特羅接下來我希望我們一定要把它追究把它調查清楚讓國人可以明白可不可以做到"},{"start":542.025,"end":562.171,"text":"整體事件裡面我認為讓我們感到最擔憂的是時安應該是一個科學問題但是時安現在被當作是一個政治事件被當作一個政治在操作為什麼這樣子說我覺得非常的遺憾的是就連我們本院裡面很多的同仁"},{"start":563.663,"end":574.157,"text":"也進行不正確資訊的傳播例如說這個林德福委員他說臺中這一盒肉這不可能是單一個案"},{"start":576.476,"end":603.07,"text":"那我不知道他的依據來源是什麼因為目前我們手邊握有所有的根據都告訴我們說這是一個單一幹當然科學是有可能被推翻這還叫做科學嘛科學就是假設與檢驗假設與檢驗科學是有可能被推翻的但我們手邊握有多少證據講多少話截至目前為止所有的科學依據包括台中市政府的資料都告訴我們說這是一個個案"},{"start":605.311,"end":618.726,"text":"所以我覺得非常的遺憾我們都可以立委都可以做評論但不應該散佈錯誤的資訊再來非常遺憾的臺中市的羅廷維委員他直接的在網路上面直播說這個飼料是有問題的要去追查飼料廠請問飼料我們有沒有查"},{"start":627.627,"end":644.386,"text":"事料有查。查驗的結果是什麼?也都完全都沒有。我們查了122件的一個事料。事料完全都沒有。目前我們手邊所有的科學資料也告訴我們事料並沒有查出有問題。但是卻有立法委員、本會成員公開的在網路上這樣子去說。"},{"start":645.367,"end":662.21,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":662.33,"end":682.663,"text":"讓我們感到非常的遺憾。林北好友這一個網路賬號事實上他是一個真人。過去就常常的對本土農業做出不實的指控。把食安拿來做政治操作造成社會的恐慌。結果後來檢調查下去發現原來他是一個騙子。"},{"start":684.807,"end":696.063,"text":"甚至進行了自導自演但是這個過程當中對於我們本土農業對整個社會的信任感都已經造成了其實不可逆的傷害所以"},{"start":698.063,"end":727.407,"text":"我非常的希望我們這一次一定要把事情查清楚那另外我希望我們行政院要勇敢的站出來澄清因為我知道在上一次這個單一的事件裡面院長你也被現在本會的成員羅志強委員當時去告發你那還好法院最後釐清了真相不只是還給你一個公道是還給真相一個公道對真相最重要所以我希望我們行政院還是要勇敢的"},{"start":728.467,"end":728.487,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":748.427,"end":774.346,"text":"有很多錯誤的資訊在社會上面流傳然後呢非常的遺憾有我們的公職人員我們的政治人物拿來做政治操作以至於當時的台北市政府扛不住壓力讓我們學校裡面我們的小學生有半年的時間是吃不到蛋的我們的小學生在學校裡面有半年的時間營養午餐是沒有辦法吃到蛋餅的"},{"start":775.319,"end":795.976,"text":"但是事後我們統的查驗臺北市政府的查驗通通結果通通都是合格的沒有一個查驗是不合格臺北市政府的市長蔣萬市長大家都知道這跟我們是不同黨派但是事實不會因為顏色的不同"},{"start":797.199,"end":822.512,"text":"而轉彎所以我非常的希望我們可以把事情查明清楚並且我們要勇敢的為自己捍衛那所以呢我也要提醒這個院長如果剛講這兩件事情我們的食安的成果裡面有一項的預算來源是不是來自於我們前瞻基礎建設預算我們的前瞻預算裡面關於食安建設是多少經費"},{"start":824.467,"end":827.349,"text":"前三期包括未執行的加總起來大概是至少有40億"},{"start":842.879,"end":843.24,"text":"院長我說的你認同嗎?"},{"start":870.862,"end":887.054,"text":"但是過去我們看到現在口口聲聲說要捍衛食安立場的委員當我們當年要提出前瞻基礎建設預算的時候他們在這裡大力的阻擋甚至不惜丟水球"},{"start":888.868,"end":889.308,"text":"好,我們來繼續努力。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149136","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149136","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb66b8e85496077213db347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a62cf261293753083b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"15:20:07 - 15:36:06","影片長度":"00:15:59","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":959,"end_time":"2024-02-23T15:36:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T15:20:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":452,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（15時20分）陳院長。"],["主席：有請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：謝委員，恭喜喔！"],["謝委員龍介：感謝你，你要聽台語還是國語？"],["陳院長建仁：都可以，你台語講得比較好，我沒有你那麼好。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有啦！你科學做得比較好。","我覺得稍微有一點歪樓了！一個這麼嚴肅的課題，全國的同胞都在看食安啦！"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["謝委員龍介：包括你和我，我們大家都很重視食安。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我知道委員你很重視。"],["謝委員龍介：結果我看你回答民進黨委員時都「嘴笑目笑」，如果是國民黨的委員上來問你兩句，你就講得咬牙切齒。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，不是這樣，要看問得有道理還是沒有道理嘛！要講道理，我是講道理，要講道理嘛！"],["謝委員龍介：你不要這樣想，像徐巧芯委員一上來，你一開始就說他外行。"],["陳院長建仁：但是他講的確確實實是外行。"],["謝委員龍介：來，我問你，有豬肉被驗到出問題嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["謝委員龍介：你知道豬仔養到成豬拍賣要養幾天？"],["陳院長建仁：我不是養豬的人，所以我不知道。"],["謝委員龍介：所以你也外行。"],["陳院長建仁：對，這方面我外行，但是如果要講在養豬場裡面用哪一種飼料、採什麼樣的檢驗、養到什麼程度，這些我知道……"],["謝委員龍介：這你內行。"],["陳院長建仁：這些都有檢查。"],["謝委員龍介：你跟我說是怎麼檢查的。"],["陳院長建仁：飼料有檢查，豬隻也有檢查。"],["謝委員龍介：豬吃什麼飼料？"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員，我可以回答嗎？"],["謝委員龍介：你可以講。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們豬的飼料分兩種，一種是大廠配方的部分，包括一些大豆跟玉米混合的飼料，然後加一些所謂的飼料添加物。"],["謝委員龍介：好，添加物是什麼？"],["陳代理部長駿季：飼料的添加物包括一些促進生長的合法使用添加物，包括一些微量元素。"],["陳院長建仁：就是骨粉、魚粉這種。"],["謝委員龍介：我講給你聽，在那裡面有魚粉、骨粉。"],["陳代理部長駿季：有，那是另外的添加物。"],["陳院長建仁：魚粉。"],["謝委員龍介：豬用了乙型受體素，是在什麼時候吃？"],["陳院長建仁：豬沒有……"],["謝委員龍介：他比較內行，請問豬要養幾天？"],["陳代理部長駿季：豬平均要6個月左右。"],["謝委員龍介：從出生到拍賣要6個月？"],["陳代理部長駿季：就是到6個月，大概平均100到120公斤可以出豬。"],["謝委員龍介：那你也外行，從出生到拍賣要7個月。"],["陳代理部長駿季：差不多半年、6個月。"],["謝委員龍介：在斷奶後抓回來養要6個月，這樣你聽得懂嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我知道。"],["謝委員龍介：在出生以後要打預防針，乙型受體素是在什麼時候添加？"],["陳代理部長駿季：乙型受體素是豬已經到了快速成長期以後，在換肉率最高的時候，根據我們所得到過去在美國使用的資訊，因為臺灣本身沒有在使用乙型受體素，但是在國外都是在換肉率最高的時候。"],["謝委員龍介：所以有萊克多巴胺、有瘦肉精的豬肉基本上是不是成本比較便宜？"],["陳代理部長駿季：以現在美國的資料來說，並沒有比較便宜，以前是有比較便宜，但是現在沒有比較便宜，所以現在美國也越來越少用。"],["謝委員龍介：有比較便宜，但是為什麼會比較便宜？"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為豬本身瘦肉跟肥肉的比例會造成在被屠宰以後肉的價格。"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你說，大概是在最後1個月到40天啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：就是在換肉率最高的時候。"],["謝委員龍介：那也沒有換肉啦！吃了以後肉會很漂亮，添加大豆、添加乙型受體素，就不用再添加成本高的魚粉跟骨粉，所以成本就降低了，所以有瘦肉精、含萊克多巴胺的豬肉會比較便宜一點。","好，請你們看看，院長，你說排除法，所以不排除這個實驗室受污染，你不要說得太武斷，我覺得你是學科學的人。"],["陳院長建仁：是啊！"],["謝委員龍介：當天臺中市政府去採取了40件，有40件。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["謝委員龍介：準備好以後開始驗下去，剛好最後這件中了，所以按照排除法，這39件都沒有，那按照排除法，臺中市這個檢驗實驗室沒有受到污染，我這樣說會不會成立？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得這是你自己的說法啦！"],["謝委員龍介：你說的啊……"],["陳院長建仁：這很簡單啦！"],["謝委員龍介：你們在說的過程就是豬肉的飼料不會污染，市場不會污染，屠宰沒污染，所以應該就是實驗室污染。"],["陳院長建仁：那40件……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["謝委員龍介：你用這樣來排除，我跟你說，臺中的實驗室它就同時採集了40包嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：不是同一批檢驗，但是不是同一個時間……"],["謝委員龍介：同天啦！不是在那間的40件，是全臺中市那天拿回來的有40個肉品就對了。"],["陳院長建仁：是啦！"],["謝委員龍介：剛好台糖這包出事，而剩下的，如果是實驗室有污染，照理說在那裡的39包都會污染到啊！"],["陳院長建仁：實驗室的污染不是像你說的這樣。"],["謝委員龍介：完全沒有啊！你說單一污染，你現在又說什麼，拿不出科學，我現在也不能斷定就是它污染，你這樣就叫做影射啦！"],["陳院長建仁：我請問委員，西布特羅是在哪一處發現的？西布特羅就是只有實驗室有，剩下的實驗室都沒有發現……"],["謝委員龍介：我告訴你，你只說實驗室進入……"],["陳院長建仁：所有的肉品都沒發現。"],["謝委員龍介：你是經過海關、財政部進來說實驗室有採購喔！"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["謝委員龍介：走私的你有沒有問過？我跟你說，臺灣走私的東西奇奇怪怪，什麼都有。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有人走私西布特羅啦！你知道西布特羅進口多少？西布特羅才進口789milligram，milligram是多少？連1公克都沒有喔！1公克都沒有！分到24個實驗室，請問每一個實驗室有多少？"],["謝委員龍介：西布特羅可否合成？"],["陳院長建仁：可以合成，但是不准合成、不准販賣、不准使用，也沒有人在買。"],["謝委員龍介：你不准合成不表示沒有人合成嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，因為西布特羅在其他的國家也是沒有人在用的，沒有人在用的話就不可能去做走私，我們自己來用。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有人在用，現在驗出來，你整個都要拿去亂說話，不要這樣啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，真的是國外沒在用。"],["謝委員龍介：我也是用科學跟你討論啊！"],["陳院長建仁：是啊！"],["謝委員龍介：所以不要一句話就咬死。我跟你講，從頭到尾，今天沒有人要任何人負責，第一個，臺中市驗出，包括本黨所有的委員，沒有一個人叫什麼人要下臺，沒有！"],["陳院長建仁：我們也沒有要叫人下臺。"],["謝委員龍介：你們怎麼說的？整日都說台糖好棒棒。"],["陳院長建仁：確實啊！"],["謝委員龍介：為什麼台糖好棒棒？"],["陳院長建仁：確實啊！"],["謝委員龍介：確實？你們早上說什麼？你們早上說因為民眾對台糖信賴，所以豬價拍賣還有92塊、93塊對不對？可以這樣說嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我早上是說本身的豬肉在過年前是90塊、90.8。"],["謝委員龍介：好，你們就說，部長有說，因為鄉親對台糖信賴嘛！好，來，現在掉到幾塊你知道嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：86.4，這幾天平均、過年之後。"],["謝委員龍介：這兩天有到82，你知道嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：有到83。"],["謝委員龍介：那這兩天突然對台糖不信賴就對了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這兩天掉下來是年節之後的買氣下降。"],["謝委員龍介：在答詢的時候，當然每個委員講的不一樣，你對他們這樣回應沒關係，但是……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我剛剛也是這樣講哦！"],["謝委員龍介：我剛剛有在聽啦！你看，右上角這個部分請放大，這隻豬養7個月後，在2023年6月7日屠宰，去年6月7日殺的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：大分切。"],["謝委員龍介：因為這個屠宰方式跟我們菜市場的溫體豬不一樣。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["謝委員龍介：溫體豬的價格比較好，溫體豬的價格比較漂亮，所以我們拍賣的話，一般豬農就是說，豬皮還是體型沒那麼漂亮的豬，他就選擇不進到拍賣市場，因為進到拍賣市場，假如今天是拍90塊，可是體型差一點，就被拍75塊，他很無奈，他也不能再載回來了，他一載回來就血本無歸嘛！所以他75塊也認了，也要被拍嘛！所以一般冷凍屠宰場大概會比牌價低個2塊錢。體型差一點，皮啦！我們在吃的「三層肉」……"],["陳院長建仁：我知道。"],["謝委員龍介：皮差一點，我都收了，因為它可以加工嘛！這一塊是梅花肉，照理說是滿不錯吃的啦！可是6月7號屠宰，6月8號大分切，就是比較好切啦！因為是機械切的，不是人工切的，把它凍到快要結冰，大概凍到1度或零度再分切，大塊的，結果它出品是在去年12月，就是在半年後出品的，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員龍介：是不是這樣？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員龍介：那你怎麼能保證在這6個月裡面沒有被污染？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，請問西布特羅在什麼地方？就是在實驗室啊！實驗室以外就沒有西布特羅，那要怎麼去污染？這是很簡單的理論嘛！"],["謝委員龍介：院長，做事情喔……"],["陳院長建仁：所謂污染物，就是說污染物在哪裡，污染才有可能。"],["謝委員龍介：不要太武斷，如果檢察官像你這樣，一年破案破不到兩件。"],["陳院長建仁：不會啦！"],["謝委員龍介：假如今天是出了人命，檢察官承辦以後就不是這種態度。","院長，我請問你，臺中市檢驗這個賣場，從檢驗那一天推算到上架這幾天，我請問你們的單位有沒有任何一個單位去調錄影帶，調那個賣場的錄影帶，去審視這一批肉過程這幾天上架以後都沒有被人家污染到？"],["陳院長建仁：我就說這整批肉都是同一個飼養場、同一個飼料養的同一群豬，所以我們叫做同批嘛！所以同批我們有回收檢驗啊！檢驗都沒有啊！你說如果有……"],["謝委員龍介：在臺中驗到啦！"],["陳院長建仁：你如果說有，所有這一批東西都一定會是陽性。"],["謝委員龍介：被驗到的，就是說在這個冰櫃拿出來檢驗的嘛，它是抽檢嘛，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：它就只有一盒。"],["謝委員龍介：抽檢一盒嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：一盒而已，那一盒有好多塊，有好幾盒。"],["謝委員龍介：我現在跟你講，就是說你是不是應該去審視這個過程，它上架第三天被抽檢，這三天裡面你們有去調那間的錄影帶，看這個冰箱有沒有被污染到嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：有啊！"],["謝委員龍介：你有去調嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：有啦！有調啊！"],["謝委員龍介：有人動手嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒看到。"],["陳院長建仁：沒看到啊！"],["謝委員龍介：基本上沒有嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["陳院長建仁：是啊！"],["謝委員龍介：所以就因為這樣，你大膽斷定是實驗室污染。"],["陳院長建仁：所以說，委員……"],["謝委員龍介：來……"],["陳院長建仁：我說一下可以嗎？"],["謝委員龍介：好。"],["陳院長建仁：現在切下來同一批是二千九百多嘛，你講的嘛，裡面每一塊都沒有喔，就只剩一個有，那一個去買的時候也沒什麼問題喔，進到實驗室以後卻變成有，我說的這是事實！"],["謝委員龍介：所有公務人員是這樣……"],["陳院長建仁：這是事實。"],["謝委員龍介：臺灣規定零檢出嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：是啊！"],["謝委員龍介：我驗到的時候我可以不要發布嗎？你跟我講。"],["陳院長建仁：當然不行，但是……"],["謝委員龍介：不行嘛！所以我發布嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：不、不、不……"],["謝委員龍介：那現在一樣嘛……"],["陳院長建仁：但是剛剛講的……"],["謝委員龍介：辣椒現在驗出蘇丹紅，這幾個縣市發布不就都有事情？"],["陳院長建仁：你的檢驗要正確嘛！我剛才講過，就是當我們檢驗值在極低量的時候，你要重複檢驗嘛！"],["謝委員龍介：來、來、來，你說檢驗要正確，這幾年，你們總共花了26億。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["謝委員龍介：你花26億補助各縣市對於食安包括設備、包括器材、包括人員的提升。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["謝委員龍介：所以你應該對他們有信心啊！"],["陳院長建仁：有啊，有信心啊！"],["謝委員龍介：而且各縣市是你的下屬單位，也是你的夥伴，是跟你一起要打拚食品安全的嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯，所以說每一個縣市他們驗出來的，我都很信任他們，但是每一個縣市驗出來的都是零檢出，都沒有檢出喔！就只有那一間有而已啦！我要跟你講的就是這樣！"],["謝委員龍介：本席給你建議啦，就算只有那一間有，你、我，我們都嚴肅面對嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！我們都很嚴肅面對。"],["謝委員龍介：好幾天了，豬農每天都打電話來說拍賣的價錢，我跟你說，今天剩下80.23啦，他們的成本差不多要80塊，成本啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：78到80元左右。"],["謝委員龍介：如果稍微差池，就要虧錢了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["陳院長建仁：所以那個消息是不是要更加……"],["謝委員龍介：不要再說那則消息。"],["陳院長建仁：謹慎檢查確實之後再來公布？不要讓它……"],["謝委員龍介：變成沒有必要的指控嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對啊，但是……"],["謝委員龍介：很簡單。"],["陳院長建仁：很簡單，就是這樣才不會造成不必要的恐慌，不會使豬價下降啊！"],["謝委員龍介：衛福部和行政院大家共同要面對……"],["陳院長建仁：所以檢驗正確很重要、檢驗正確很重要……"],["謝委員龍介：就是說，向國人宣布，在我們所有驗過的肉品裡面，目前都沒有含有乙型受體素……"],["陳院長建仁：大家安心去吃。"],["謝委員龍介：現在開始請大家安心去吃。"],["陳院長建仁：我講過很多次了。"],["謝委員龍介：至於過程裡面哪裡的污染？是我們要積極料敵從嚴去查的嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["謝委員龍介：若要再用政治影射去做政治攻防，後面我就陪伴你了，不要這樣嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有，我都是用科學，所以才會有專家委員會，不是嗎？你如果說豬肉的價格會下降，是什麼人引起下降？"],["主席：謝謝謝委員龍介。","接下來請登記第10位吳委員沛憶質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","李坤城","洪孟楷","洪申翰","廖偉翔","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳沛憶","王育敏","何欣純","李彥秀","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009","1130401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「民進黨政府執政八年臺灣食安問題總檢討」專案報告並備質詢─ 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53.872,"text":"委員長你說排除法所以不排除"},{"start":282.605,"end":283.025,"text":"臺中市檢驗實驗室"},{"start":312.912,"end":324.356,"text":"沒有受到汙染。我這樣說會不會受到汙染?我認為這是你自己的說法。這很簡單。你們說的規定就是說什麼?治療不會有汙染,市場不會有汙染,所以都在有汙染,所以應該就是實驗室汙染。那去40間?我給委員報告。你用這樣擺脫,我告訴你嘛。"},{"start":340.541,"end":351.644,"text":"埃中的實驗室他就同時採集了40張碼﹖不是同一批檢驗﹖不是同一批﹖但是不是單一的試鋼﹖一鋼為你同鋼﹖同鋼﹖不是你那間40間的專台中心那一鋼騙下來﹖有40的罵聘就對了﹖大台上這包出事"},{"start":363.308,"end":365.37,"text":"不然我問委員請問師傅特魯是對一大塊應對師傅特魯就是只有在實驗室有"},{"start":389.989,"end":392.633,"text":"你講實驗室進入你是講經過海關、財政部入來講實驗室有採購?對阿找書的你有沒有人?"},{"start":403.632,"end":421.306,"text":"我告訴你,臺灣遭受的東西奇奇怪怪的,大家也有?沒有人遭受西部特樓啦。你知道西部特樓進口多少?西部特樓進口789迷你咕咾,迷你咕咾是多少?連一公克都沒有喔。一公克都沒有。阿均去24個時間尺,請問每一個時間尺有多少?西部特樓可以合成嗎?"},{"start":425.069,"end":425.369,"text":"所以﹖"},{"start":457.846,"end":479.851,"text":"我跟您講今天沒有人要任何人負責,討告未了。第一個,臺中室宴出包括本黨所有的委員,沒有一個人叫什麼人要下台,沒有。我沒有要叫人下台,我沒有要叫人下台。幾年臺黨好棒棒,現在臺黨好棒棒。"},{"start":485.11,"end":500.901,"text":"其實你們可以說什麼?你們可以說因為民眾對台糖信賴所以租價拍賣還有92塊、93塊對不對?可以這樣說的嗎?我知道你意思是本身的地貿在幾年前的年齡是90點多好來 你就說因為 你們還有補充說因為鄉親對台糖信賴嘛 好來現在落到幾塊你知不知道?"},{"start":513.275,"end":533.562,"text":"八十六點四平均這幾天幾年多?這兩天有到八十二月你知不知道?有到八十三這樣現在算這兩天總要兇庸對台湯不信賴就對了沒有這兩天下去是年節之後的買氣下降在打水的時候當然有時候每次委員講都沒講你對他們對他們沒關係我剛才也是這樣講喔?我剛才有在跟你們聽啦你看看"},{"start":542.383,"end":567.822,"text":"阿放大一點,右上角這個齁,這間地下是這樣齁,這間地下起起落落後,在2023年的6月7日屠宰。幾年齁,幾年的落後才一台。大分缺。因為這台齁,跟我們蔡奇亞的溫體珠不一樣。對。那溫體珠呢,它的價格比較好。"},{"start":569.38,"end":570.381,"text":"我一再回來我血本無歸嘛"},{"start":599.622,"end":606.883,"text":"所以一般這兩棟屠宰場大概會比這個牌價低個兩塊錢你體型差一點皮差一點我都收了因為他可以加工這塊是梅花肉照你講是蠻不錯吃的"},{"start":629.209,"end":658.488,"text":"可是6月7號屠宰他6月8號大分切就是說比較好切啦因為機械切的不是人工切的他把它動到要結冰大概動到一度或零度啦再分切大塊結果他出品了出品了出品"},{"start":659.713,"end":662.775,"text":"那你怎麼能保證這6個月裡面沒有被汙染?"},{"start":674.445,"end":701.379,"text":"委員請問西部特樓在什麼地方?就是在實驗室啊。實驗室以外就沒有西部特樓,那要怎麼去污染?這是很簡單的理論嘛。污染物就是說污染物在哪裡?污染才有可能。如果檢察官像你這樣,破案一天破沒兩天。假如今天是出了人命,檢察官成辦以後就不是這種態度。我請問你,你認為我請問你?"},{"start":704.568,"end":724.595,"text":"台中市檢驗這個賣場他從檢驗那一天推算到上架這幾天我請問你們的單位有沒有任何一個單位去調錄影帶調那個賣場的錄影帶去審視說這一批肉過程這幾天上架以後都沒有被人家污染到"},{"start":725.595,"end":744.039,"text":"我說這個整批肉都是同一個飼養場同一個飼料養的同一群的豬所以我們就會有叫做同批嘛所以同批我們有回收檢驗啊我檢驗都沒有啊你說如果有你如果說有所有吃一倍的東西都一定一起養性啊"},{"start":750.663,"end":757.267,"text":"在這個冰櫃拿出來檢驗的嘛齁?他抽檢嘛對不對?他好像一二抽檢一二嘛齁?一二而已啊"},{"start":760.107,"end":773.212,"text":"我現在要跟你講就是說,你是不是應該去審視這個過程,他上架第三天被抽檢,這三天裡面,你有去找那間錄影館,看這個冰箱有用污染到嗎?"},{"start":773.212,"end":775.033,"text":"有啦你有去找嗎?"},{"start":775.033,"end":777.754,"text":"有啦,有抓啊。 有人扔手嗎?"},{"start":777.754,"end":782.856,"text":"沒有看到啊。基本上沒有嘛,這樣為什麼,你,所以因為這樣你大膽斷定,"},{"start":786.778,"end":786.938,"text":"實驗室汙染"},{"start":814.244,"end":820.535,"text":"臺灣規定臨檢出嘛是啊我選到的時候我敢可以不要發布你告訴我"},{"start":821.355,"end":828.641,"text":"當然不行,但是我發佈嘛,那現在一樣嘛,那辣椒現在蘇東風撿到這幾個縣市發佈什麼都有事。你的檢驗要有正確嘛,我剛才講過就是說當我們檢驗實在極低量的時候,要重複檢驗嘛。幾年了齁,你都算開26年。"},{"start":843.592,"end":859.411,"text":"對。對。對。對。"},{"start":859.411,"end":874.614,"text":"所以說每一個官司人體檢出來,我都很信任他,但是每一個官司檢出來,都請檢出,都沒有檢出喔,只有自己檢出而已啦,我要跟你講的就是這樣。本來自己檢去啦,現在只有自己檢出啦。你以為我們都嚴肅面對嗎?對喔,我們都很嚴肅面對。因為你第一次,你每次打電話說什麼,打不來,我跟你說今天全八十二三啦。"},{"start":891.001,"end":916.33,"text":"他們的身分要差不多八十塊。成本啦齁。這個稍微、稍微處理就要得了解了。所以說那消息是不是要很緊張的來檢查有消息,比較來公佈。不必做沒有必要的指控嘛。但是,很簡單,就是這樣會不會造成不必要的恐慌,不會使得租價下降啊。所以檢驗正確很重要,檢驗正確很重要。"},{"start":920.339,"end":927.986,"text":"國民宣佈,在我們所有檢過的罷聘裡面都沒有,目前沒有刊入這個議刑授體數碼。"},{"start":957.754,"end":957.955,"text":"謝謝謝委員龍介"}]}},{"id":"149135","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149135","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb63df71158d2c1a3c1b347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6a3fa2fd90ac653ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"15:04:04 - 15:19:55","影片長度":"00:15:51","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":951,"end_time":"2024-02-23T15:19:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T15:04:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":316,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（15時4分）院長，可以開始了嗎？還是我要等一下？等一下好了。"],["主席：我們請今天的壽星鍾佳濱委員質詢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席、現場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請院長跟兩位部長。"],["主席：哪兩位部長？"],["鍾委員佳濱：薛部長和陳部長。"],["主席：再次請陳院長與兩位部長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長好，兩位部長好。請問院長及部長，你們過去有沒有參加政論節目的現場？有沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有耶！"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有？我是常參加啦，我倒覺得剛剛委員的詢答好像是在政論節目的現場，只是通常在那個時候，作為節目主持人，也就是現在院長那個位置的人會出來制止。我覺得很遺憾，剛剛那樣的討論無助於事實的澄清，而且還錯誤引用在場委員之前的發言，我覺得這也不足取啦。所以我鄭重的請院長在未來遇到發言陷入這樣的情況時可以適時的維持一下秩序，可以嗎？"],["主席：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝院長。","我們就開始今天的質詢，有關「天選之肉」西布特羅的事件，請問一下，一片肉、同一個檢體檢驗超過20次，數值都不一樣，這樣合乎常理嗎？院長，您是科學家。"],["陳院長建仁：不合常理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：您覺得通常在這種情況之下，正規的實驗室會怎麼去處理這樣的檢驗結果？"],["陳院長建仁：正規的實驗室應該有兩個部分，第一個，如果這片肉之外還有其他同一批的肉，應該要來做檢驗；第二個，他也可以請求另外的專業檢驗機構再協助他了解為什麼它的數值會不一致。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，因為我念過國中也念過高中，雖然我是念文組的，但我們做實驗課時也是有這樣要求。"],["陳院長建仁：對、對、對，這是做實驗的要求。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當你做出來的實驗數值跟人家不一樣的時候，可以請別人再照方操作一次，看看會不會做出這樣的結果，對不對？好。","接下來請問陳部長，同批肉品920件零檢出，你們是用什麼樣的標準去找這920件檢體？是同一隻豬？同一批豬？還是同一批梅花肉？還是同一個台糖的養豬場？你們是怎麼做的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想跟委員說明，大概分兩個部分，第一個部分我們是針對臺中市政府所公布的這批肉的部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：批號？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們馬上去回溯到同一批、同品項的這些豬肉，有掌握到的這些豬肉部分總共有17包，在前面二天17包檢驗都沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們會往上去溯源養豬場嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，然後第二個部分就是溯源到南靖的養豬場，有關養豬場的部分，我們會針對同一批生產的豬肉跟他的飼料……"],["鍾委員佳濱：連飼料都驗了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，連飼料都驗，因為如果有可能的話，也有可能會在飼料裡面添加，所以我們針對飼料也檢驗，結果也是沒有的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以這920件的檢驗結果是同一批肉品批號的肉品、加工的肉品，肉品來的同一批豬，他們在其他地方也去把它找回來……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，是不同批的豬……"],["鍾委員佳濱：同一個養豬場，出這批豬肉的養豬場……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，同批養豬場……"],["鍾委員佳濱：也去抽其他的豬，這批養豬廠的飼料，包括庫存的飼料都拿出來抽驗，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以經過這麼縝密之後，你是不是覺得可以排除飼料添加的可能？你覺得……"],["陳代理部長駿季：以目前來講，我們所檢測的數據結果都沒有檢出……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以排除飼料添加？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們初步排除在台糖的南靖的飼料、養豬場……"],["鍾委員佳濱：排除了飼料添加的問題？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，不是台糖的養豬場，你們有沒有做檢測？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們也有，我們在肉品市場也檢測了4包……"],["鍾委員佳濱：也沒有驗出來嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以目前可不可以說，經過你們檢測的，基本上並沒有豬農在飼料添加？以目前你們檢測的來說。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，目前我們檢測的包括肉品市場跟台糖的市場都沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這總共累積1,567件都沒有檢出瘦肉精，那麼是不是可以還豬農清白？因為我們屏東是養豬大縣，豬農很care這個事情，你覺得這樣有沒有辦法還豬農清白了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我覺得以我們現在的數據可以推斷目前我們國產豬肉的飼養都沒有使用西布特羅或其他瘦肉精。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我可以說一個簡單結論，就是還豬農一個清白。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：接下來，如果不是豬農的問題，從生產到賣出都零檢出，養豬場、屠宰分裝、信功、賣場，包括台糖的賣場或國軍的承銷商陳列品，結果這些到臺中市政府之前通通是零檢出，你認為這樣是不是也還了台糖，包括賣場、包括肉品加工廠的清白？表示他們這個過程都沒有用藥品去污染到肉品，有沒有？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，因為我們現在的數據顯示，台糖的肉品我想是絕對沒問題的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以台糖也是清白的，豬農也是清白的。請問院長，根據你一個科學家的結果，有一位民眾黨主席說，這個不用講也知道這是實驗室污染，你覺得他的話可信嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我想經過剛才這樣的科學論證，確實只有臺中市政府的實驗室的一塊肉有，所以他判斷是實驗室污染的可能性，但是我個人是覺得說，到目前為止，因為從買到這個檢體到檢驗階段已經很長，現在要蒐集真正的事證已經有困難，但是我們不能夠排除有實驗室污染的可能性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以實驗室污染現在恐怕也很難證實啦……"],["陳院長建仁：雖然沒有證明，雖然不能證實，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是有可能？"],["陳院長建仁：有可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是臺中市衛生局說這是非科學的說法，但是有人不是說科學說法，而是說從動機論，就跑出了剛才前面委員有提到的所謂政治千面人，但所謂的政治千面人表示他不是千面人啦，千面人是為了真的下毒，要去毒死人、去勒索，對不對？但顯然西布特羅在這樣的含量是毒不死人的，他的目的大概也不是透過下毒來恐嚇食品工廠，他是要製造其他的目的，有人說這樣是政治千面人，換言之，這個驗出來的西布特羅如果不是實驗室污染，不是被動的被附著到殘藥，而是有人刻意放進去的，你覺得有沒有這個可能？"],["陳院長建仁：我想實驗室的同仁在做實驗的時候，大概……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不會是實驗室的人做的？好，如果不是實驗室的人做的，有沒有可能是在送到實驗室之前，在賣場檢體上有人放的，有沒有這個可能？一點點、千萬分之一可能，有沒有這個可能？"],["陳院長建仁：這個可能需要看賣場的錄影帶結果……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，這就是我的重點了，至少到目前為止，公務機關在沒有查明情況之下就強制商品下架，是不是有產生對於該商品公司有國家賠償法的賠償責任問題？"],["陳院長建仁：這一件事情確實是造成台糖很大的損失……"],["鍾委員佳濱：損失多少你知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：五千三百多萬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們看一下，台糖說損失了超過5,000萬。"],["陳院長建仁：對，五千多萬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得如果真的符合國家賠償成立的要件，的確是公務人員有心或無心的疏失或犯錯，是不是台糖有可能可以提起國家賠償，要求相關公務機關負責？有沒有這個可能性？"],["陳院長建仁：這個我們來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：確實他們有損失，這是事實啦，不過現在最重要的就像……"],["鍾委員佳濱：假如證明是公務人員的疏失或過失，可以提出國賠嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：對，如果確實……"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：如果確實是有公務員的疏失的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：確實的話？好，台糖至少可以證明它的損失。","農業部長，這些日子以來，在本月2號臺中市政府記者會之前，我們毛豬每公斤的價格是93塊5，交易頭數是2萬7,000頭，結果在召開記者會之後，價格掉到84塊，交易頭數掉到2萬2,000頭，請問你認為豬農或養豬產業有沒有損失？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想整個事件一開始是引起了一些消費者對於國產豬有疑慮的部分，在過年前的平均批發價大概是90.8元，還維持著一定，但是過年後開始有一些降低，這個降低的部分，一部分因素是大家的恐慌，另外一部分是因為過年後消費習性的疲弱，所以我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，部長，我直接問你，如果豬農認為他的豬隻銷售損失跟某市政府的記者會有關聯，你覺得他這樣的訴求有沒有一點點道理？他覺得受到影響了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想豬農一定會做這樣的訴求，我們也會隨時跟豬農去了解他的實際損失是用批發價的方式去處理，還是用其他的方式。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來看一下，問題來了，台糖是一個營業公司，對不對？它的出貨多少都有案可稽，豬農說我去年賣多少錢、去年賣多少隻，今年過年前沒有賣到這麼多，豬農有能力去定位價格下跌、畜養成本增加還是銷量影響嗎？請問豬農有沒有舉證的能力？相較於台糖公司，你覺得豬農有沒有這樣的能力？"],["陳代理部長駿季：豬農是完全沒有舉證的能力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，如果後來證明既不是台糖的問題，是某公務機關的錯，台糖可以跟負責的人提出國賠，豬農受到影響，但沒有能力去舉證，請問豬農的損失誰來賠？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想豬農的損失，他其實最在意的就是說國產豬肉不要讓消費者失去信心，我覺得這一點一定是更重要的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是未來！那是未來！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：農業部可不可以承諾，可以來協助豬農去舉證跟界定他們的損失？就是他們過去這段時間因為這個烏龍事件所造成的損害，幫忙協助豬農，未來如果他們採取司法途徑，至少讓他們跟台糖公司一樣，可以舉證外部客觀的損失，農業部可不可以來協助？如果他們請求的話。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我想我們會跟養豬業者去研議相關的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你承諾會幫他們嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們會幫助他們來協議……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果豬農協會提出來，農業部願意協助他們來定損跟舉證嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，後續如果我們檢查的確是因為這個事件，是一個很特殊的狀況……"],["鍾委員佳濱：因果關係由法院來判定啦，但是舉證……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，判定的結果後，我們會來協助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：舉證跟定損，農業部願意來協助嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會來協助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，很好，接下來我要請問衛福部長，其實這件事情我不敢說他是政治千面人，但是賣場陳列的生鮮食材，你有沒有去過便利超商買過茶葉蛋？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嘛，部長你有吃過嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你知不知道你前面一個買茶葉蛋的是什麼人？"],["薛部長瑞元：不知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你知不知道你後面一個買茶葉蛋的是什麼人？"],["薛部長瑞元：不知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不知道。如果前面一個人的手上很髒，髒東西掉到放茶葉蛋的鍋子內，你去買茶葉蛋，你會不會擔心？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然有這種可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然有這個可能嘛！請問一下，你覺得目前在賣場，如果包裝好的、完整封存的食品，過去都曾經真正的發生過被千面人下毒的情況，那現在不是包裝完好的食品，像茶葉蛋、關東煮之類開架式的，讓不特定的消費者能夠自由取用，有沒有可能產生在賣場污染的情況？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果開架的話，有可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有可能。部長，您不太舒服喔？"],["陳院長建仁：對，他喉嚨不好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我就問院長好了。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長，那沒有強制賣場導入危害控管，你看看我們從原料的生產到加工製造都有強制要導入HACCP，根據食品安全衛生管理法第八條第二項有10類，包括餐廳業者，它的人員要定時接受健康檢查，包括要遵守一定的衛生規範，對不對？這在我們的法規有規定的，那是指專門處理顧客飲食的專業人員、特定人員，但是在賣場的顧客，你有辦法要求他洗過手再去夾茶葉蛋嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，如果是顧客，很難。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有辦法嘛，對不對？所以，我們來看一看是不是能從這一次的事件學到教訓，萬一有人模仿像千面人那樣，因為我們臺灣的賣場很多熟食是公開隨意顧客取用的，只要有一個地方發生問題，是不是造成了所有民眾的恐慌，對不對？千面人當時在日本就是這樣子，他完全沒有下毒喔，他只是威脅說有下毒，還在那個食品上貼一張紙說有毒不能吃，裡面根本沒有下毒，就造成了整個日本食品業的損害。你認為我們目前賣場對於熟食區的管理夠不夠完善？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得這個部分我們可以再來監控、加強。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要提醒一下部長跟院長，今天這個事情大概可以證明不是豬農在飼料上違法添加，也幾乎可以證明食品加工廠跟賣場，食品廠本身並沒有在加工的過程中被污染，那有一個可能就是實驗室自己購買的藥品，在檢查過程中可能是無意中的污染，但是也很難去查個水落石出，但是也有人說有可能是在開放式的貨架上特定的產品被下藥。我不要說是下毒，他只是要製造恐慌。如果目前我們臺灣的賣場存在有這樣的風險空間，院長，你可不可以要求衛福部徹底檢討我們所有的賣場，他們在這些區域的安全監控跟行為的管理？"],["陳院長建仁：我想在賣場裡面，特別是開架式的、open的販賣食物，確實是要加強管理，這個部分我們可能需要按照委員的建議來做比較好的監控；至於已經包封好的、不是開架式的這些食物，我們可能就是需要再做剛才講的抽樣檢查等等，來確保它整個過程都是安全的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：去年發生毒莓果事件的時候，我就有要求衛福部，我說對於這些大型的賣場，因為他們銷量特別大，他們說他們在進口之前都交給檢驗室檢查過了；或者說他們信賴出口的時候，對方的官方跟我方的官方的抽驗，貨品進入賣場後，他自己沒有再去做一些必要的化驗，他說只有自主管理，部長，是不是這樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你認為現在經過這個事件之後，對於這些銷量特別大的大型賣場，是不是要課以隨時去賣場做一些，不是自主管理而是強制要求他要去做必要的巡檢，防止他的賣場中的商品被污染、被破壞，尤其在開架式的，很多便利超商的開架式的飲食區供顧客隨意取用的，是不是尤其要加強這些大型連鎖公司在他們的連鎖超商當中的管理要列入規範，你可不可以承諾要找時間訂出來？不是自主管理而已，而是要被要求來管理？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個還是會有一點困難。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那要不要去研擬？"],["薛部長瑞元：可以來研擬，就看……"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以。院長，他承諾了，你覺得什麼時候可以做？"],["陳院長建仁：我想……"],["鍾委員佳濱：3個月可以做出來嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：3個月可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：需要跟廠商一起來瞭解，這個我們會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你承諾可以做？"],["陳院長建仁：會加強，會加強這方面的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員佳濱。","我們接下來請登記第9號的謝委員龍介質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","李坤城","洪孟楷","洪申翰","廖偉翔","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳沛憶","王育敏","何欣純","李彥秀","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009","1130401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「民進黨政府執政八年臺灣食安問題總檢討」專案報告並備質詢─ 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啊 鍾佳濱委員主席 外場的委員先進 會席的政府機關所長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請院長跟兩位部長學部長跟陳部長 哪兩位部長學部長跟陳部長好的 再次請陳院長跟兩位部長備詢眾委好院長好兩位部長好"},{"start":47.388,"end":70.683,"text":"請問院長部長你們過去有沒有參加政論節目的現場有沒有沒有沒有我是常參加啦我倒覺得剛剛似乎委員的詢答好像是在政論節目的現場只是通常在那個時候作為節目主持人也就是現在的院長的位置的人會出來制止啊那我覺得很遺憾的齁剛剛那樣的討論"},{"start":71.553,"end":100.449,"text":"無助於事實的澄清而且還錯誤引用在場委員之前的發言我覺得這也不足取啊所以我鄭重的請院長未來可以澄清你當發言陷入這樣的情況的時候可以事實來維持一下秩序可以嗎?謝謝院長好那我們就開始今天的質詢這個天選之樓西部特樓的事件那請問一下一片肉同一個檢體檢驗超過20次數值都不一樣那這合常理嗎?院長您是科學家"},{"start":101.651,"end":118.702,"text":"那您覺得通常這種情況之下,正規的實驗室他會怎麼去處理這樣的檢驗結果?正規的實驗室應該有兩個部分。第一個呢,如果這一片座之外呢,還有其他同一批的座應該要來做檢驗。第二個呢,他也可以請求另外的這個專業的這個檢驗機構呢,再協助他來了解為什麼他的這個數值會不一致。"},{"start":124.065,"end":147.092,"text":"是因為我也念過國中也念過高中雖然我念的是文組但是我們做實驗課的時候也是有這樣的要求當你做出來實驗數值跟人家不一樣的時候那可以請別人再照方的操作一次看會不會做出這樣的結果對不對好那請問一下往下一頁齁那麼接下來呢請問陳部長齁同批的肉品920件零檢出你們是用什麼樣的標準去找這920件檢體"},{"start":149.172,"end":166.1,"text":"同一隻豬,同一批豬,還是同一批梅花肉,還是同一個台堂的養豬場,你們是怎麼做的?我想跟委員說明,大概分兩個部分。第一個部分就是,我們是針對台中市政府所公布的這一批肉的部分,我們馬上"},{"start":167.12,"end":167.14,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":192.842,"end":207.352,"text":"如果有可能的話那有可能會在飼料裡面添加所以我們針對飼料也驗結果也是沒有的這920件驗的結果同一批肉品的批號的肉品加工的肉品對肉品來的同一批豬"},{"start":208.593,"end":214.254,"text":"對,是不同批的豬養豬場。對,同一批養豬場。對,同一批養豬場。是。是。是。以目前來講齁,我們所檢測的這些數據的結果都沒檢出。對,是排除飼料添加。排除的飼料添加的問題。對,好。"},{"start":238.138,"end":258.619,"text":"那不是臺商的養豬場你有沒有做檢測?我們也有,我們在肉餅市場也檢測了。目前可不可以說經過你們檢測的基本上並沒有豬農在飼料添加,目前你們檢測的?對,目前我們檢測的包括肉餅市場跟臺商的市場都沒有。那這總共累積1567件都沒有檢出瘦肉精?"},{"start":259.195,"end":280.011,"text":"那是不是可以還豬農清白?因為我們屏東是養豬大縣,豬農很care這個事情。你覺得有這樣的有沒有辦法還豬農清白?我覺得以我們現在的數據去可以推斷說我們現在目前國產豬的豬肉的飼養都沒有使用這個西部特羅和其他所有豬肉。所以我可以說一個簡單的決定就是還豬農清白。接下來如果不是豬農的問題,"},{"start":281.272,"end":290.84,"text":"那從生產再賣出的零檢出、養豬場、屠宰分莊、信工、賣場、台糖的賣場或是那一個國軍的承銷商的陳列品"},{"start":291.431,"end":312.685,"text":"那結果這些到台中市政府之前通通是引檢出那你認為這樣是不是也還了臺糖包括賣場包括肉品加工廠的清白表示他們這個過程都沒有去用藥品去污染到這樣的肉品有沒有對因為我們現在的數據顯示臺糖的肉品是我想是絕對沒問題的"},{"start":313.826,"end":341.167,"text":"好,所以臺黨也是清白的,中壇也是清白的,那請問院長那關於你一個科學家的結果有一位民眾黨的主席說啊,這個沒人知道這是實驗室污染你覺得他這話可信嗎?我想經過剛才的這樣的一個科學的論證確實就只有臺中市政府的實驗室的一塊肉有那所以他判斷是實驗室污染的可能性但是我個人是覺得說"},{"start":342.537,"end":357.045,"text":"目前為止因為他買到這個檢體到檢驗這個階段已經很長現在要收集這個真正的事證已經有困難但是我們不能夠排除有實驗室污染的可能性所以實驗室污染現在恐怕也很難證實雖然不能證實但是有可能"},{"start":360.467,"end":385.388,"text":"但是呢臺中市衛生局說這是非科學的說法但是有人不是說科學的說法有人是說從動機論就跑出了剛剛前面委員提到的所謂的政治牽面人所謂的政治牽門表示他不是牽面人啊牽面人是為了真的下毒要去毒死人去勒索對不對那顯然的西普特羅在這樣的含量是毒不死人的他的目的大概也不是透過下毒來恐嚇食品工廠"},{"start":386.169,"end":401.447,"text":"他是要製造其他的目的,那有人說這樣是政治簽名人,換言之這個驗出來的西布特羅如果不是實驗室污染,不是被動地被附著到這個殘藥,是有人刻意地放進去的,你覺得有沒有這個可能?"},{"start":402.318,"end":424.384,"text":"我想在實驗室的同仁在做實驗的時候大概不會是實驗室的人做的有沒有對如果不是實驗室人做的那有沒有可能是在實驗室送到實驗室之前在賣場的檢體上有人放有沒有這個可能一點點千萬分之一可能有沒有這個可能這個可能要需要看那個賣場的錄影帶的檢體有沒有這就是我的重點了"},{"start":424.844,"end":437.72,"text":"好那至少呢在目前為止公務機關在沒有查明這個情況的之下就強制商品下架是不是有產生對於該商品公司一個國家賠償法的賠償責任的問題"},{"start":440.793,"end":467.956,"text":"這一件事情確實是造成了台糖很大的損失。損失多少你知道嗎?五千三百多萬。我們看一下,台糖說損失了多少?損失了將超過千萬。那你覺得如果真的是成立國家賠償的要件,的確是公務人員有心或無心的疏失或犯錯,那是不是台糖有可能可以提起國家賠償,要求相關的公務機關負責,有沒有這個可能性?這個我們來...有沒有?"},{"start":469.303,"end":491.708,"text":"確實他們有損失這是事實不過現在最重要的那假如證明是公務人員的疏失或過失那可以提出國賠嗎?對那如果確實是有公務人員的疏失的話那台堂至少他可以證明他的損失那請問這些日子以來本月2號台中市長記者會之前農業部長我們毛豬每公斤的價格是93塊5交易投訴是2"},{"start":495.99,"end":505.035,"text":"兩萬七千頭。結果開了記者會之後呢,價格掉到八十四塊錢。交易頭數呢降到了兩萬二。請問你認為豬農或養豬產業有沒有損失?"},{"start":507.813,"end":532.356,"text":"我想整個的事件一開始是引起了一些消費者對於我們國產豬肉的疑慮的部分那在過年前的部分我們現在的平均的批發價大概是90.8元還維持一定但是在過年後以後開始有一些降低那這個降低的部分一部分的因素是大家的一個恐慌那另外一個部分是因為過年後的一個消費的一個習性的疲弱"},{"start":533.096,"end":555.154,"text":"那部長如果直接問你如果朱龍認為說他的豬的銷售損失跟某市政府的記者會有關聯你覺得他這樣的訴求有沒有一點點道理他覺得受到影響我想朱龍一定會做這樣的一個訴求那我們也會隨時跟朱龍去了解就是說他實際的這樣的一個損失是用批發價的方式去處理還是用其他的方式好那我們來看一下那就問題來了"},{"start":556.135,"end":557.196,"text":"豬農是完全沒有舉證的能力"},{"start":581.218,"end":601.373,"text":"那如果後來證明既不是台糖的問題是某公務機關的錯台糖可以跟負責的人提出國賠那豬農受到影響他沒有能力去舉證請問豬農的損失誰來賠我想豬農的損失他其實最在意的就是說他的國產豬肉不要讓消費者失去信心我覺得這一點一定要更重要那是未來"},{"start":603.274,"end":618.594,"text":"那如果過去農業部會不會承諾可以來協助豬農去舉證跟界定他們的損失就他們過去這段時間因為這個烏龍事件所造成損害幫豬農來協助未來如果他們採取司法途徑他們至少跟台糖公司一樣可以去舉證"},{"start":619.875,"end":644.44,"text":"外部客觀的一個損失,農業部可不可以來協助,如果他們請求?對,我想我們會跟我們的養豬業者去研議好相關的一個...承諾會幫助他們嗎?對,我們會幫助...如果養豬協會提出來,農業部願意協助他們來定損跟舉證嗎?後續如果說我們的檢查的確是因為這個事件,是一個很特殊的...因果關係有法院來判定啦,但是舉證跟定損,農業部願意來協助嗎?我們會來協助。"},{"start":648.721,"end":671.206,"text":"接下來我要請衛福部長其實這件事情我不敢說他是政治牽面人但是賣場陳列的生鮮食材你有沒有去過便利超商買過茶葉蛋有有嘛部長你有吃過嘛你知不知道你前一個買茶葉蛋的人是什麼人不知道你知不知道你後面一個買茶葉蛋的人是什麼人不知道那如果前面一個人的手上很髒東西掉到茶葉蛋你去買茶葉蛋你會不會擔心"},{"start":674.175,"end":696.604,"text":"當然有這種可能當然有這個可能嘛請問一下你覺得目前在賣場如果包裝好的完整封存的食品過去都曾經被發生過真正的切面人下毒的情況那現在不是包裝完好的食品像茶葉蛋關東煮開架式的讓消費者不定特定的自由取用有沒有可能產生在賣場污染的情況"},{"start":697.729,"end":719.296,"text":"如果開架的話有可能有可能部長您不太舒服了我就問院長好了那危害控管沒有強制賣場導入你看看我們從原料的生產到加工製造都有強制導入HACCP一共有提供了在市民安全衛生法管理法第8條第二項有超過的有10類"},{"start":720.436,"end":749.093,"text":"包括餐廳業者他的人員要定時接受健康檢查他們要遵守一定的衛生規範對不對這是我們的法規有規定的那是指專門處理顧客飲食的專業人員特定人員但是在賣場前面的顧客你有辦法要求他洗過手再去夾茶葉蛋嗎沒有,如果是顧客可能沒有辦法嘛對不對所以我們來看一看那是不是從這次事件的教訓如果有人"},{"start":750.368,"end":765.419,"text":"萬一像千面人那模仿因為我們臺灣的賣場很多熟食是公開隨意顧客取用的只要有一個地方發生問題是不是造成了所有的恐慌對不對千面人當時在日本就是這樣子"},{"start":765.999,"end":768.64,"text":"我覺得這個部分我們可以再來監控加強也就是說我要提醒一下部長跟院長"},{"start":791.069,"end":799.966,"text":"今天這個事情已經證明可以大概可以證明說不是豬農在飼料上違法添加也幾乎可以證明食品加工廠跟賣場"},{"start":801.721,"end":822.498,"text":"施品廠本身他並沒有在這個過程中去污染那有一個可能就是實驗室自己購買的藥品在檢查過程中可能是無意中的污染但是也很難去查個水落石出但是也有人說有可能是在開放式的貨架上特定的產品被下藥我不要說是下毒"},{"start":823.078,"end":852.078,"text":"他只是要製造恐慌那如果目前我們臺灣的賣場存在有這樣的風險空間院長你可不可以要求衛福部來徹底的檢討我們所有的賣場他們在這些區域的一個安全監控跟行為的管理我想在賣場裡面特別是開架式的像這樣open的那個食物的販賣確實是要加強來管理那這個部分我們可能需要"},{"start":852.639,"end":854.62,"text":"去年發生毒莓果事件的時候我就要求衛福部"},{"start":876.018,"end":894.249,"text":"我說對於這些大型的賣場因為他們銷量特別大他們說他們的進口之前都交給檢驗室檢查過了或者說他們信賴出口的時候對方的官方跟我方的官方的抽驗他自己進入賣場後沒有再去做一些必要的化驗他只有說自主管理部長是不是這樣"},{"start":895.745,"end":910.357,"text":"那你認為現在經過這個事件之後對於這些銷量特別大的大型賣場是不是要刻意他隨時去他的賣場做一些不是自主而是被強制要求要去做必要的巡檢防止他的賣場他的商品被污染被破壞"},{"start":911.138,"end":936.821,"text":"尤其在開架式很多的便利超商他開架式的飲食區供顧客隨意取用的是不是尤其要加強列入這些大型連鎖公司在他們的連鎖超商當中的管理要規範你可不可以承諾要找時間定出來不是自主規而已要被要求來管理這個還是會有一點困難那要不要去研擬可以來研究看院長他承諾了你覺得什麼時候可以做"},{"start":938.25,"end":939.513,"text":"我想這一個也需要跟廠商一起來瞭解"}]}},{"id":"149134","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149134","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb605e7da52cabd2b86b347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a61cd3ba218c78baf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"14:47:19 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15:03:46","影片長度":"00:16:27","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":987,"end_time":"2024-02-23T15:03:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T14:47:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":59,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（14時47分）院長，請。"],["主席：我來。麻煩請陳院長備詢，謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：不好意思，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：徐委員，恭喜你榮任立委。"],["徐委員巧芯：院長，你在過年的時候有告訴大家你過去1年做錯很多事……"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["徐委員巧芯：我現在就要來問問看，到底知不知道自己做錯什麼？反省了沒有？首先，我們農業部去告民眾，說他們綠雞蛋是假消息，你還跳出來說這是一則假消息，結果被法院打臉了，你有錯嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：法院的……"],["徐委員巧芯：法院不對？你說法院不對。"],["陳院長建仁：法院的判斷，你自己看看內容……"],["徐委員巧芯：法院不對，好，沒有承認。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你看看法院的內容、宣判的內容……"],["徐委員巧芯：NCC裁罰10個案子都被行政法院打臉……"],["陳院長建仁：你講的不是這樣喔！"],["徐委員巧芯：有錯嗎？不是假消息喔！"],["陳院長建仁：你看看法院宣判的內容……"],["徐委員巧芯：法院已經認證囉！法院已經認證了。"],["陳院長建仁：它是說它沒有辦法查證……"],["徐委員巧芯：欸！你不認為有錯！"],["陳院長建仁：你那個不要扭曲……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以行政院去告民眾……"],["陳院長建仁：不要扭曲法院的判斷。"],["徐委員巧芯：被法院打臉了……"],["陳院長建仁：不要扭曲法院的判斷。"],["徐委員巧芯：不認為有錯？我們都知道了，NCC裁罰10個案子都被行政法院打臉，你們有錯嗎？回答，有錯嗎？NCC被行政法院打臉10個案子了，回答不出來？好。","臺灣的詐騙訊息96%的民眾都收到過，去年被詐騙79億，政府有錯嗎？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：詐騙79億，可是委員我剛才……"],["徐委員巧芯：有或沒有？這麼簡單的問題嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：我昨天報告的時候你沒有注意聽。"],["徐委員巧芯：有或沒有？我是問你覺得有沒有錯？以後我會慢慢問你要怎麼解決，你有沒有錯？政府有沒有錯？"],["陳院長建仁：我們打詐1.5實施以後……"],["徐委員巧芯：有或沒有？回答不出來。"],["陳院長建仁：實際上查到的打詐、阻擋的也都增加了……"],["徐委員巧芯：國防部發簡訊，衛星說成是飛彈……"],["陳院長建仁：也都減少了民眾的損失。"],["徐委員巧芯：你在立法院說臺灣被飛彈攻擊了，你有沒有錯啊？"],["陳院長建仁：喔，那一件事情是我在情蒐……那我承認錯，那一件事情我承認。"],["徐委員巧芯：承認錯，一件。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：海巡署公然說謊，翻覆的時候說人家蛇行不慎翻覆，結果根本是碰撞之後導致翻覆，你剛剛還說以訛傳訛，有沒有錯？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，這一個你要有證據喔！這個昨天在我們檢察官講的……"],["徐委員巧芯：新聞媒體以及我今天記者會有提出證據……"],["陳院長建仁：它沒有證實，沒有證實是碰撞翻覆……"],["徐委員巧芯：但你自己不認真……"],["陳院長建仁：你這個要負責任……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有看過海巡署的報告……"],["陳院長建仁：你要有負責任的講法。"],["徐委員巧芯：我有看過海巡署的報告。"],["陳院長建仁：這個要負責任喔！這是你講的喔！"],["徐委員巧芯：我講的啊！"],["陳院長建仁：碰撞翻覆是你講的喔！"],["徐委員巧芯：我記者會公開講的……"],["陳院長建仁：但是檢察官沒有這樣說……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們第一時間海巡署的報告說……"],["陳院長建仁：是你自己的心證喔！"],["徐委員巧芯：我方碰撞對方導致翻覆，文件我都有，我會送到金門地檢署去。"],["陳院長建仁：好。這是誰講的？"],["徐委員巧芯：今天是食安報告，臺灣豬肉驗出有西布特羅……"],["陳院長建仁：這個要司法調查，一定要按照司法的查證，相信司法吧！"],["徐委員巧芯：食安報告，政府有錯嗎？政府整個過程當中有錯嗎？你也覺得沒有錯，百分之百知道的喔！"],["陳院長建仁：相信司法。"],["徐委員巧芯：院長，你剛在備詢的時候說要給台糖申覆期，要晚15天公布，我問喔，這個案子如果晚15天公布，除了讓國人晚15天知道事實真相以外，會不會驗出西布特羅？我只談這個案子。"],["陳院長建仁：好，這個案子我可以跟你講，如果檢查出來……"],["徐委員巧芯：會或不會嘛？我只有15分鐘的時間而已，為什麼要浪費呢？中央有沒有驗出西布特羅？這個案子晚15天公布會不會驗出西布特羅？"],["陳院長建仁：那一塊肉有，其他沒有，而且按照標準作業流程，當檢查出來有西布特羅的時候……"],["徐委員巧芯：我剛剛都聽過了，你就是這樣浪費我們國民黨委員的時間……"],["陳院長建仁：應該在15天內讓台糖申覆、複驗，但是他們沒有照標準作業流程來做……"],["徐委員巧芯：就告訴你會驗出來，因為你們中央就驗出來西布特羅，請問中央有沒有驗出西布特羅啊？"],["陳院長建仁：而且它驗出來的量是0.002 ppm，是相當的低、極度的低……"],["徐委員巧芯：請問中央有沒有驗出？不用告訴我幾ppm，有或沒有？答案很清楚。"],["陳院長建仁：那一塊肉有。"],["徐委員巧芯：就是有，你們自己公布的就是有驗出來。"],["陳院長建仁：那一塊肉才有，其他沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：有驗出來嘛！我管你哪一塊肉。"],["陳院長建仁：那一塊肉才有驗出來。"],["徐委員巧芯：有一塊肉驗出來，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：那個實驗室的肉驗出來，所以委員……"],["徐委員巧芯：你剛剛說臺中的實驗室污染……"],["陳院長建仁：你以偏概全。"],["徐委員巧芯：你說臺中的實驗室污染是刪去法，你是在參加百萬小學堂嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這是科學的推理啊！邏輯啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：你要不要call out求救一下、call out求救一下……"],["陳院長建仁：那這個邏輯也沒有按照科學證據，那我們談什麼？談憑你個人的想法，這才奇怪了嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：好，所以你剛剛說，你認為臺中實驗室是污染了，除了刪去法以外有沒有其他的驗證方式？"],["陳院長建仁：當然有，但是現在……"],["徐委員巧芯：那是什麼，請說明，你用什麼方式已經驗證出了臺中實驗室污染？"],["陳院長建仁：目前……"],["陳代理部長駿季：這一批的其他的……"],["徐委員巧芯：好……"],["陳院長建仁：如果按照這個情況下，來，我們讓部長講。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我說明一下，因為豬是統進統出的，所以一批肉如果有西布特羅污染的話，同批同品項一定也會污染，那我們查過了所有同批同品項並沒有受到污染。"],["陳院長建仁：所以這就是科學。"],["徐委員巧芯：來，你們驗出西布特羅的批次豬肉裡面，百分之多少已經賣掉了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：賣掉的我不清楚，但是整個……"],["徐委員巧芯：不清楚？你不清楚，你說都驗了，你剛說你們全都驗了，沒有驗出，這都是實驗室造假……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，不是……"],["徐委員巧芯：百分之多少已經賣掉了，不清楚啊！哇！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有人食品檢驗是這樣子的，不可能用百分之百，你這是完全外行的講法。"],["陳代理部長駿季：所有的豬是吃同一批飼料的……"],["徐委員巧芯：百分之九十都賣掉了，我告訴你答案，我不是農業部長耶！吃下肚了，你驗3%，最多……"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個跟3%沒有關係，最主要是它同一批的肉是用同樣的飼料……"],["徐委員巧芯：所有那一批次的豬肉你們驗了百分之多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：同一批的……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問你是驗了百分之多少？國人有知道的權利，百分之多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們現在已經驗了4家、12家，已經17件了喔！"],["徐委員巧芯：百分之多少嘛？"],["陳代理部長駿季：已經足以證……，沒有，這跟百分比沒有關係，因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：我想問百分之多少啊？"],["陳代理部長駿季：百分比沒有關係。"],["徐委員巧芯：我想知道啊！我今天問你的問題叫做驗出西布特羅的批次裡面，驗了幾個百分比？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你講的是外行話，所有的食安檢查，就是用同批的樣品來檢查，你現在講的是外行話。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個批次裡面有幾包？食安報告裡面有寫……"],["陳院長建仁：食安不是這樣檢查的！"],["徐委員巧芯：你們報告裡面有寫幾包？這個批次有幾包？報告裡面寫的喔！嘿！你報告寫的耶！"],["陳院長建仁：那你看啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：你報告寫的，你們不知道答案是幾包啊？翻一下嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：你已經看了！"],["徐委員巧芯：現在翻好不好？我給你一點時間，我還有9分鐘，翻一下你們裡面寫，這個批次有幾包？"],["陳院長建仁：我跟你講過，所有的檢驗都……有36包被檢查，但是要強……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們自己寫的報告，自己都不看！不，這個批次裡面有2,730包，這是你專案報告裡的數字！"],["陳院長建仁：2,730包是所有的產品。"],["徐委員巧芯：我剛剛問你這個問題嘛！你為什麼不翻翻報告，你裡面自己寫的。我問，請問你們驗了幾包？"],["陳院長建仁：你這樣講，我很難回答！"],["徐委員巧芯：驗了幾包？"],["陳院長建仁：我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：2,730包裡面驗了幾包？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們同一批17包。"],["徐委員巧芯：不知道？"],["陳院長建仁：同一批17包。"],["徐委員巧芯：台糖送了36件，你們報告裡面寫的。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問36件裡面是幾包？"],["陳院長建仁：36包啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：36件是36包，你要確定喔！它裡面寫的單位都不一樣喔！你自己都沒有好好看你的報告，連單位寫的都不一樣就亂回答。請問，如果驗出一包叫做不算，你如何用10%去推斷其他的90%不存在？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明一下，整個食安的檢測不是用百分比，因為百分比是用抽檢……"],["徐委員巧芯：我就想問你，怎麼樣去推論出來的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，就是因為豬是同一批飼養，用同樣的飼料，所以如果他有檢測的時候……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以，你認為驗出一包可以不算，那請問驗出第二包、第三包、第四包的話……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有驗出。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有驗出任何一包……"],["徐委員巧芯：任何一包，那現在驗出了沒有？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們現在除了那一塊肉以外……"],["徐委員巧芯：他們現在全都沒有驗出啊！唉！"],["陳院長建仁：只有在那個實驗室的那一包才有，委員你這樣講，我們沒有辦法討論啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：驗出第二包、第三包、第四包，沒有驗出來，是不是就不用公布了啊？"],["陳院長建仁：委員你這樣講我們沒有辦法討論，你不按照科學的，按照目前的邏輯推論……"],["徐委員巧芯：第一包就當作沒有發生……"],["陳代理部長駿季：到目前為止都沒有。"],["陳院長建仁：你這樣講沒有辦法討論……"],["徐委員巧芯：食藥署、農業部過去是不是經常都這樣？驗出一包、兩包的，第三包驗不出來就沒公布……"],["陳院長建仁：委員你這樣子不是理性、不是科學的根據，我就跟你講過……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問你，我們食藥署、農業部有沒有曾經驗出一包任何的、有毒素的、違法的，但第二包以後都沒驗出來，就選擇不公布的經驗？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，如果我驗出一包以後，我會馬上針對同一批、同品項的產品去複驗，到目前為止都沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，第二包沒有之後就不公布，對不對？我們的SOP現在是這樣對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：SOP很簡單嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：不公布？"],["陳院長建仁：就是你去採樣，採樣來了以後，如果你發現它是有驗出，就應該讓廠商在15天內申請複驗，臺中市政府沒有做；第二件事情……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，你跟我講15天，來，辣椒粉有沒有驗出蘇丹色素？"],["陳院長建仁：我還沒有講完，第二件事情，它檢驗出來了以後，如果很低的濃度，應該要再去採其他的樣本來做檢驗。"],["徐委員巧芯：辣椒粉有沒有驗出蘇丹色素？"],["陳院長建仁：有啊！那是雲林縣驗出來的。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問新北市跟雲林縣有等待廠商複驗15天嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：它驗出來以後，馬上新北市政府就去查了它的上游……"],["徐委員巧芯：就怎麼樣？就公布了才讓廠商複驗嘛……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，不是……"],["徐委員巧芯：還是你不知道？我們剛去查核過了。"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得委員你又搞混了，那是因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以蘇丹色素可以不用15天，但是瘦肉精要15天？"],["陳院長建仁：不是，他們有溯源，這件事情很重要，一個有溯源，一個沒有溯源……"],["徐委員巧芯：剛才不是糾結在15天嗎？現在15天去哪裡了？"],["陳院長建仁：我就跟你講，你現在……"],["徐委員巧芯：複驗是廠商的權利，但是跟公布是兩回事喔！我們食安法第五條寫的是什麼？唸法條給我聽！食安法第五條。"],["陳院長建仁：紅辣椒的這件事情是因為他去溯源，新北市才查到另外一些，所以你剛才講的完全是兩回事。"],["徐委員巧芯：食安法第五條裡面寫什麼？"],["陳院長建仁：食安法第五條，我沒有辦法記得那麼……"],["徐委員巧芯：又不知道！你看我每次問你問題，你都不知道。該條裡面寫，各級主管機關依科學實證，建立食品衛生安全監測體系，於監測發現有危害食品安全之虞之事件發生時，應主動查驗，並發布預警或採行必要管制措施。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：所以它寫得很清楚，申請複驗是廠商的權利，臺中市政府有讓台糖來申請複驗，但是什麼時候要公布是政府應該按照食安法第五條就要公布的……"],["陳院長建仁：它科學、正確的檢驗……"],["徐委員巧芯：臺中市食安處是不是食藥署的認證實驗單位？我們食藥署有沒有認可這個臺中實驗室？"],["陳院長建仁：臺中市政府檢驗出來的時候是低劑量，它沒有去做進一步的驗證。"],["徐委員巧芯：臺中市的食安處是野雞單位嗎？這個實驗室我們食藥署有沒有給認證？有嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：就是很低劑量的情況下，就是要複驗啊！他沒有認真去做啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：現在驗出來的這個臺中食安處，你們有沒有給它認證通過？他們是不是一個合格的實驗室？"],["陳院長建仁：認證是一回事，可是要每一個時間都要加以認證，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：有沒有嘛？我只問你，它有沒有被食藥署認證是一個合格的實驗室？是還是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：即使認證合格也不見得……"],["徐委員巧芯：是還是不是？我先問你這個問題……"],["陳院長建仁：也有可能是人為疏忽。"],["徐委員巧芯：那它是還不是？"],["陳院長建仁：你這樣講，任何一個被認證的實驗室都有疏忽，舉個例子，我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：那它是還不是？我先問你這個問題。"],["陳院長建仁：我們中央研究院P3實驗室被認證，但還是會疏忽啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：我先問你這個問題，你怎麼知道我後面要問你什麼呢？它是不是一個合格的實驗室啊？"],["陳院長建仁：它曾經被認為是。"],["徐委員巧芯：已經不被認為了，是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：曾經是。"],["徐委員巧芯：「曾經是」的意思，就是現在已經不是了，所以你們取消臺中市政府這個食安單位的認證了，是嗎？是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：你這樣講……"],["徐委員巧芯：你的邏輯就是如此啊！"],["陳院長建仁：你在玩語言遊戲啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：好，如果你認為實驗室有污染的話，你要撤掉它的認證嗎？認證撤掉了沒有？什麼時候要啟動撤掉這個程序？以及是否要請檢調來調查臺中的這個實驗室？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我們是不是有請專家委員會去調查？"],["徐委員巧芯：檢調呢？"],["陳院長建仁：調查出來以後，再看要不要驗證……"],["徐委員巧芯：有網友在網路上面po了一個綠雞蛋，你農業部是直接去提告民眾，所以你們應該要提告臺中市的這個實驗室，會不會提告？"],["陳院長建仁：臺中市政府的實驗室要自己負起責任來。"],["徐委員巧芯：提不提告？你覺得它今天做出了違背社會……"],["陳院長建仁：這個責任包括二個部分，第一個，要確認它的檢驗是正確的；第二個，要讓廠商有複驗的機會，他們沒有做到。"],["徐委員巧芯：按照社會秩序維護法，連在網路po綠雞蛋都被告，請問告不告臺中實驗室？告或不告？"],["陳院長建仁：委員的問題很奇怪，臺中市政府對於它檢驗出來的西布特羅，發現只有它一塊……"],["徐委員巧芯：網友也是買到綠雞蛋po網啊！那你也很奇怪，你告他幹嘛呢？還被法院打臉，丟臉耶！"],["陳院長建仁：應該是臺中市政府要去負責啊！所以地方自治就是臺中市政府要負責啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有的事情你都提告了，為何有的事情你卻不告？還是心虛啊？"],["陳院長建仁：但是臺中市政府也請中央來協助，所以我們才有組織專家委員會來幫忙嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：有人說這個事件是政治千面人，你同意嗎？他們說臺中市政府下毒！你同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我認為講千面人這件事情是危言聳聽！"],["徐委員巧芯：危言聳聽？對這樣的造謠有沒有打算提告社維法？因為不見得是針對某一個批次的豬肉。"],["陳院長建仁：但是我們馬上澄清，如果是千面人下毒絕對不是那個濃度……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以在網路上造謠是千面人的，農業部不會對他提告，即便會影響到其他豬農都不提告？"],["陳院長建仁：但是我們判斷這不是千面人啊！很簡單的食安的特色……"],["徐委員巧芯：很有趣吧？我們當時也認為沒有綠雞蛋，但你為什麼提告綠雞蛋？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你不曉得千面人的下毒情況跟這個情形是完全不一樣……"],["徐委員巧芯：有人在網路上造謠千面人，你現在不提告千面人嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：所以你現在是竹篙湊菜刀，亂湊！"],["徐委員巧芯：所以不提告千面人？因為我已經幫你準備好了。我知道你們很愛告人，我幫你準備好了一批名單，上面是曾經說過現在有政治千面人在豬肉下毒，害很多民眾不敢買豬肉的名單。你們只要一聲令下，我馬上提供資料給你，讓你去告他們啊！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你這樣做無法讓臺灣食安繼續精進。"],["徐委員巧芯：那怎麼樣可以……"],["陳院長建仁：你只是在講政治的話語而已，對臺灣食安沒有幫助……"],["徐委員巧芯：延遲公開就可以增加臺灣食安？驗出一包但不要公布，就可以很棒，增加臺灣食安？但是如果驗到了，很緊張，趕快公布出來，就是在讓我們的食安出問題？我再問你……"],["陳院長建仁：那是你自己的看法。"],["徐委員巧芯：這是民進黨的文宣，它寫說：臺中市政府採購西布特羅，流向去哪裡？說清楚！暗示因為採購西布特羅的關係，所以都有問題。各縣市政府採購西布特羅，院長，不可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：可以啊！但是就在實驗室裡面使用……"],["徐委員巧芯：那你認為民進黨這樣沒有造謠的問題嗎？沒有抹黑的問題嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：你現在講到真正的重點，因為西布特羅只有在實驗室裡面，所以所有的飼養過程都不會有西布特羅的出現。現在只有一塊肉、在一個實驗室檢驗出來，請問這個西布特羅從哪裡來？你覺得呢？你的邏輯呢？"],["徐委員巧芯：所以這麼多單位都有，食藥署也有買，食藥署也有……"],["陳院長建仁：食藥署沒有檢驗出來啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：這個民進黨的文宣裡面是不是造謠？它意圖讓人誤以為只要縣市政府有購買西布特羅，就是對這個豬肉下毒的人？"],["陳院長建仁：所以有西布特羅的實驗室，又只有一塊肉檢驗出來，而這塊肉就是在臺中市政府的實驗室啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：這是造謠吧？這是抹黑吧？"],["陳院長建仁：完全不是啊！確實是……"],["徐委員巧芯：請問陳建仁院長認不認為這張圖卡是在造謠、抹黑？還是你認同？你很認同嘛……"],["陳院長建仁：我是認為臺中市政府確實有西布特羅，而臺中市政府檢驗的那塊肉也有西布特羅，也只有那塊肉有，這是事實！"],["徐委員巧芯：剛才前面一位委員在問你的時候，吳思瑤委員說，微量驗出的話以後不用公布，你點頭。所以你要修法嗎？"],["吳委員思瑤：我抗議！我沒有這樣講！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有這樣講。"],["徐委員巧芯：他說微量的話可以不用公布，你在點頭。我請問，未來修法的方向是不是如果驗出一包或兩包的話，就可以不用修法……"],["吳委員思瑤：我抗議！院長，我抗議！他扭曲我的意思。"],["徐委員巧芯：這是我的時間，我剛剛聽起來就是這個意思。"],["吳委員思瑤：我抗議！院長！"],["徐委員巧芯：我剛剛聽起來我感覺就是這個意思。院長，請問你有沒有要修法有關於如果驗出微量0.001ppm，就要修法這樣的一個方向？你剛剛點頭如搗蒜是什麼意思呢？"],["主席：各位委員同仁，跟大家報告兩個重點：第一個重點，請尊重質詢委員……"],["徐委員巧芯：是，是我的質詢時間。"],["主席：第二個重點，我們今天院會專案報告是用即問即答的方式進行，由委員與官員共同使用詢答時間。委員質詢，再由官員就質詢的範圍答復。因此，委員跟官員之間基於互相尊重，共同遵守此項規定，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：當然。"],["主席：非常謝謝徐委員巧芯，也謝謝陳院長、列席官員，謝謝。","接下來我們請鍾委員佳濱。特別向院會報告一下，今天是鍾佳濱委員的生日，請所有的委員跟官員我們用掌聲來祝賀他，好不好？生日快樂！","請鍾委員佳濱質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","李坤城","洪孟楷","洪申翰","廖偉翔","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳沛憶","王育敏","何欣純","李彥秀","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009","1130401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「民進黨政府執政八年臺灣食安問題總檢討」專案報告並備質詢─ 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員你又搞混了。 所以蘇丹各組可以不用15天,但是受援要15天。 不是,他們有溯源。這一件事情很重要,一個有溯源一個沒有溯源。 還在糾結在15天嗎?那現在15天去哪裡了?"},{"start":556.921,"end":558.783,"text":"十案法第五條裡面寫什麼?"},{"start":576.226,"end":578.928,"text":"所以他寫得很清楚,申請復驗是廠商的權利,臺中市政府有讓臺堂來申請復驗"},{"start":600.703,"end":611.837,"text":"但是什麼時候要公佈是政府應該按照食安法第5條就要公佈的。台中市政府是不是食藥署的認證所單位。我們食藥署有任何這個台中食品署。"},{"start":617.023,"end":626.385,"text":"臺中市的食安處是野雞單位嗎?這個實驗室我們食藥署有沒有給認證?有嗎?沒有,你們有沒有給實驗?現在驗出來的這個臺中食安處你們有沒有給他認證通過?他們是不是一個合格的實驗室?他有認證是一回事可是要每一個時間都要加以認證所以"},{"start":640.009,"end":643.532,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":659.644,"end":681.952,"text":"曾經被認為是已經不被認為了是嗎曾經是現在曾經是的意思就是現在已經不是了所以你們取消台中市政府的這個實案單位的認證了是嗎是嗎你這樣講你的邏輯就是如此啊如果你認為實驗室有污染的話你要撤掉他的認證嗎認證撤掉了沒有什麼時候要啟動撤掉的這個程序以及是否要請檢調來調查台中的這個實驗室"},{"start":689.005,"end":703.693,"text":"委員,我們是不是有請專家委員會去調查?那調查出來以後在談判要不要認真呢?你農業不是直接去提告民眾所以你們應該要提告台中市的這個實業市會不會提告?"},{"start":706.314,"end":706.875,"text":"請問告不告台中實驗室?告或不告?"},{"start":725.82,"end":753.789,"text":"這個委員的問題是很奇怪臺中市政府對於他檢驗出來的這一個西部特樓發現只有他一塊應該是臺中市政府要去負責啊所以地方自治就是臺中市政府要負責但是臺中市政府也請中央來協助所以我們才有組織專家委員會來幫忙嘛那有人說呢這個事件是政治牽面人你同意嗎他們說臺中市政府下毒啊"},{"start":755.595,"end":776.929,"text":"我認為講千面人這件事情是危言聳聽。那這樣子的造謠有沒有打算提告社會法?因為海湖建格是針對某一個批次的豬肉嘛。但是我們馬上就澄清,如果是千面人下毒,絕對不是那個濃度。所以在網路上面套牢千面人的農業會不會對他提告?即便會影響到其他的豬農都不提告?"},{"start":777.642,"end":794.677,"text":"但是我們不判斷這是缺面人啊。我們很簡單的食安的特色。委員你不懂嗎?委員你不曉得缺面人的下午情況跟這個情形是完全不一樣。所以你現在是這個第二道菜都亂倒了。"},{"start":795.057,"end":812.488,"text":"所以不提告簽名人的因為我已經幫你準備好了我知道你們很愛告人我幫你準備好了一批名單上面就是有曾經說過現在有政治簽名人在吐豬肉下毒害很多民眾不敢買豬肉的名單你們只要一聲令下我馬上提供資料給你讓你去告他們"},{"start":813.248,"end":822.675,"text":"委員你這樣做沒有辦法增進臺灣食安的繼續的精進。你只是在延遲公開就可以增加我們臺灣的食安。延遲食安沒有幫助。"},{"start":829.52,"end":851.309,"text":"但是如果驗到了很緊張趕快公佈出來就是在讓我們的食安出問題我再問你這是民進黨的文宣他寫說臺中市政府採購西部特羅劉向去哪裡說清楚暗示因為採購西部特羅的關係所以你們都有問題各縣市政府採購西部特羅院長不可以嗎"},{"start":852.23,"end":871.96,"text":"可以啊,但是就在實驗室裡面使用。因為現在講到真正的重點,因為西部特羅只有在實驗室裡面,所以所有的飼養的過程都不會有西部特羅的出現。那現在只有一塊肉在一個實驗室檢驗出來,請問這個西部特羅從哪裡來?"},{"start":874.841,"end":896.576,"text":"所以他們多單位都有啊,食藥署有買啊,食藥署沒檢驗出來啊。所以有斯布特羅的實驗室就只有一塊肉檢驗出來,這一塊肉就是在台東市政府的實驗室啦。這個是造謠吧?這是抹黑吧?請問同線的院長認不認為這一張圖卡是在造謠在抹黑啊?"},{"start":903.32,"end":927.238,"text":"我是認為臺州市政府確實有西部特龍,而臺州市政府檢驗的那一塊肉也有西部特龍,也只有那一塊肉有,這是事實。違量元素的違量驗出的話以後不用公佈你點頭,所以你要修法嗎?他說違量的話可以不用公佈,你再點頭,你說我請問未來修法的方向是不是如果驗出"},{"start":938.863,"end":946.654,"text":"徐巧芯各位委員同仁"},{"start":953.168,"end":975.981,"text":"好各位委員同仁跟大家報告兩個重點第一個重點請尊重諮詢委員第二個重點我們今天會專案報告是用疾問疾答的方式進行由委員跟官員共同用使用詢答時間委員諮詢再由官員就諮詢的範圍答覆"},{"start":977.682,"end":983.526,"text":"因此,委員跟官員之間基於互相尊重,共同遵守此項規定。"}]}},{"id":"149133","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149133","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb66b44bc35f5ac576ab347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6bc38ae4df99baeaf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"14:30:31 - 14:46:54","影片長度":"00:16:23","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":983,"end_time":"2024-02-23T14:46:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T14:30:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（14時30分）謝謝院長，辛苦了，有請陳建仁院長。"],["主席：請陳院長備詢。"],["吳委員思瑤：請衛福、環境、經濟3位部長一起。"],["主席：請3位部長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：院長、大家都辛苦了。"],["陳院長建仁：不會，謝謝你，午安。"],["吳委員思瑤：食安專報紛紛擾擾，終於上路了，這段時間社會也真的付出了非常大有形跟無形的成本，到底這個事件誰是贏家，誰是輸家？我想社會可以清楚地斷定，在這個事件當中沒有人是贏家，所以我們無論如何要在這樣一個食安的個案事件上獲得正面的教訓，也就是我們好好來檢視台糖安心豚事件，臺灣社會究竟學到了什麼？我們如果可以從這個慘痛的經驗上獲得任何一點點讓我們更好的可能跟機會，我們就不是輸家。","首先，進入我的質詢之前，我要肯定，我觀察了今天早上我們官員們的表現，有為有守，該辯護、該大聲說的我們就大聲說，我非常肯定大仁哥今天也硬起來了。透過這個專案報告，我們可以很清楚地讓國人看到是誰在講科學，又是誰在搞政治，都會一一現形的，臺灣的公民素養是非常高的，同樣的，思瑤如果有講錯的訊息，我也請求行政部門要糾正我，這就是國會應當有的彼此尊重，我們來論理跟專業監督。","吳思瑤是這一屆立法院第一位針對食安問題提出質詢的委員，就在這個週二，我利用我的施政報告時間，我就針對食安議題來提出質詢，如果關心，隨時隨地我們有很多的方式可以監督行政部門，當然我還是樂見今天的食安專報可以更進一步的來聚焦跟探討。但同時吳思瑤也是立法院唯一可以在一週內有兩次機會在這裡跟您討論食安的委員，所以我很謝謝我們週二的討論，讓我有很多的吸收，讓我可以再進一步的回去思考反芻，作為一個專業的國會議員，我如何在政策上可以提出更好的針砭。","我週二的時候說了，食安就是心安，經過一再的驗證，我們可以清楚地知道，臺灣食安的政府體制是沒有問題的，現在的問題出在人民心慌慌，因為這個事件受傷了，所以我們無論如何要傾全力對於國人的心理建設要趕快補強起來。我重新再說一次幾個關鍵數字，有的update了，譬如說到底零檢出有幾盒，數字不斷地在攀升，今天最新的數字已經來到檢測921盒零檢出，所以921比1，從這個不斷攀升的數字，我記得禮拜二在這裡質詢的時候，從788盒到877盒，到今天921盒，都代表我們台糖秉持它的專業、負責，不斷地繼續檢驗，雖然我們可以斷定它是單一事件，還是不放棄要釐清真相，我看到我們台糖的努力跟行政部門的臂膀。第二個關鍵數字我要再說一次，兩年來西布特羅這個化學用藥只進口了789毫克，少於1cc，這麼微量的，所以我們也可以驗證到它沒有流入到任何的產銷、畜牧階段，它就是在實驗室使用。24個實驗室，臺中市政府就是其中一個有進口的單位。第三個關鍵數字，我們可以精準溯源做到台糖可以快速的下架274包，可以精準溯源去調查同一批生產的是2,730盒肉，可以細緻到個位數。這就告訴國人，台糖作為一個國家的品牌，可以安心、可以放心，台糖有能力、有專業，也負責任的，無論如何要追查事件到最後一刻。所以這幾個關鍵數字都告訴我們，我們國家的食安體制是沒有問題的，國人可以安心，不要驚慌啦！","我有一個新的key number，是今天專報我看到的新數字，早上也在跟王美花部長做進一步的確認，就是台糖是這個事件最大的受害者，但是台糖是國營事業，它的損害就是全民買單，不管有形、無形的、變動成本或是調動成本，財務損失高達5,253萬，5,253這個關鍵數字，美花部長沒有錯嘛？而台糖在這個事件當中，動員的人力高達741人次，包括台糖自己的工作同仁，還包括這些代送商，所以美花部長，台糖的損失怎麼替它平反？誰能來賠啊？"],["王部長美花：目前為止，我們趕快把這個事件釐清，然後確認台糖的豬肉是沒有問題的。我想目前的要務，我們是先做這件事情。"],["吳委員思瑤：很遺憾，沒有人能賠，全民買單，還好是台糖，國營事業、老字號，撐得住，如果這樣的一個事件、謠言發生在任何一個民間企業，3天就倒了啦！"],["陳院長建仁：很慘。"],["吳委員思瑤：但是我們有一件事情可以做，我覺得我辦公室的幕僚非常的可愛，他們都是年輕人，他們跟我說：老闆，台糖受傷這麼深，國家又沒有辦法給他們平反，五千多萬，開什麼玩笑！欸！我們可以做一件事，消費者就有最大的力量，我們一起台糖挺起來、台糖吃起來、台糖的產品買起來。剛剛中午我跟我助理去了一趟全聯，我們買了台糖的燕麥片。"],["王部長美花：謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：辦公室大家下午茶一下，我們買了台糖的手工水餃。"],["陳院長建仁：很好吃。"],["吳委員思瑤：我回家都是半夜，晚上半夜可以自己煮。我們買了砂糖，我喜歡吃甜，我助理特別幫我買這麼一大包，我不知道要吃多久。還有，台糖有很多的罐頭，我這裡是鳳梨罐頭，其實它有各類的罐頭。"],["陳院長建仁：很棒。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們要呼籲所有的消費者挺台糖、挺國家的好品牌，這是我今天在這裡拋出來的第一個訊號，我們可以在這個事件當中獲得一個正向的事情，否則就輸太多了，你們都同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我完全支持，我完全同意，太棒了！"],["吳委員思瑤：所以您要不要在臉書上鼓勵部會首長大家一起台糖買起來、台糖吃起來？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我今天會在臉書上來鼓勵大家多用台糖的產品，台糖的產品確實不錯。"],["吳委員思瑤：剛剛有說大仁哥喜歡吃水餃，我等一下這包就送給你，晚上就吃起來，宵夜就可以po上臉書。","除了有形的損失，其實無形的損失更是難以計算，我很少數可以同意柯文哲的說法，可是他這幾天說的話，我是同意的。他說：這就是實驗室污染嘛，這是簡單的判斷。然後他也說簡單的事情要簡單解決，還有很多事情要做，不要浪費時間在這種無聊的事情上，就是不要再「舞豬舞狗舞開花」了，所以柯文哲主席講的話，我也希望民眾黨的委員們要聽。我們希望政治上也要停損，不要讓議事再空轉，我們讓整個事件，最起碼讓我們的食安制度是如何地精進在國人面前被看到，而作為政治工作者，不要在這個事件上見縫插針，食安就是科學，食安不要搞政治。","回到專業問題，我們的食安專家會議已經開完了，養殖端沒問題，屠宰端沒問題，就是出在實驗室的檢測端有問題。您週二那天告訴我說大概兩週要結案，可不可能更快？好像事實釐清的大概……"],["陳院長建仁：對，他們經過開會以後，確實有很多的事實都已經釐清了，我們現在就請衛福部這一邊再……"],["吳委員思瑤：加快、加速。"],["陳院長建仁：加快、加速。"],["吳委員思瑤：無論如何3月份。那臺中市政府就問題大了，臺中市政府的責任怎麼來究責？"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分的話，專家委員會應該對於實驗的步驟、怎麼樣做得更好等等有一些看法；另外一件事情也是大家蠻關心的，就是它採到檢體到公布結果一共有18天的時間，可是當它一檢出來有西布特羅的時候，並沒有讓台糖有申請複驗這樣的一個機制，應該在宣布以前要有一個複驗的機制，可是這個機制並沒有進行就發布。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝院長的回復。所以說在實務上、事務上台糖事件教會臺灣的是至少我們中央政府幫地方政府一把，在體制上更完備，食安不分中央地方、不分政黨，我們協助地方政府來檢視而且精進它的檢驗作業，這個您這週二答應我要來做。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：協助各個地方政府，也不要只針對臺中市政府，也許其他縣市政府……六都還是有能量的，也許有一些地方政府更需要專業的軟硬體協助，協助地方政府來精進檢驗作業的SOP，包括軟硬體。第二，改善資訊公開的流程，就您剛講的。那我要再進一步說，因為這次它的個案就是檢驗到非常非常極限值0.001……"],["陳院長建仁：2。"],["吳委員思瑤：0.002。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以在對外公開的這個流程裡頭，我個人認為是應當要有個分流的機制，就是說當一檢測那是大量的污染的時候，大量的擴散是系統性的研判的時候，趕快公布；但是如果是極微量的可能就要斟酌，也就是如您剛剛講的，為什麼臺中市政府18天驗來驗去同一塊肉，其實在這個部分他們需要檢視，中央可以幫忙他們。","至於盧秀燕怎麼究責？我覺得兩條路，臺中市議會3月8號就要召開食安的專案會議，就回到地方政府負起政治責任，監督畢竟是在地方政府。對於邀請盧秀燕市長到立法院來備詢或報告，我個人是持比較保留啦！我認為還是基於地方自治。但是另外一個部分，也許監察院是可以協助釐清這整個事實很重要的一個調查機關，也許監委們聽到呼籲，我沒有辦法指揮監委，當然基於分際之間，也許這會是一個協助進一步調查的必要手段。","馬英九任內跟蔡英文任內的食安大型事件，我那天分享了，7比2，7件在馬英九任內，我們任內有2件，我們儘量做到零容忍，但是在進步的這件事情是不容抹煞的。所以這幾年來建組織、修法案、增預算，我們8年投入92.5億來進行食安的提升，遠比馬英九在2016年把政權交到我們手上的時候多了2.3倍。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：我呼籲朝野的立委繼續來監督、繼續來支持，做不好就給資源、做不好就來修法，而不是處處為難，所以我要刻意再把這樣的資訊羅列出來。","最後一部分是我今天最在意的部分，食安在進步，可是臺灣的假訊息讓臺灣大退步，我很赫然地發現有一個北歐的專業權威調查，謠言惑眾、假訊息最嚴重的國家，臺灣連續十年是全球的冠軍，臺灣成為一個謠言惑眾世界NO1耶！這對我們來講何其不堪啊！而官方打假，我這裡提出來的是食藥署在2015年成立一個食藥闢謠專區，所以9年來有566件的假消息，當中食品類有350件，占六成，其他有醫療器材的假消息、化妝品的假消息跟藥品的假消息，非常的嚴重，9年來有566件，六成是食安，所以我們需要重建全民辨識食安假訊息的全民教育，需要全面來啟動。民間的台灣事實查核中心，這個民間機構NGO，他們也具體的在2022年提出小心有毒的食安假訊息，他們提出了兩個樣態，食安假訊息的樣態一就是「舊聞重炒」，把過去發生的事來說成是今年新發的事件，然後它有照片、有圖片，引起全民的恐慌。另外一種樣態是「去脈絡化的再製」，加蔥加料然後去頭去尾，簡單來講就是重製了一個假消息。所以我們全民的食安教育、全民的打假怎麼來完備呢？院長，我們曾經在2019年修了9個法，不夠！至少我們針對今天這個主題食品安全衛生管理法第四十六條之一，針對散布食品安全謠言或不實訊息，只能夠罰臺幣100萬，今天這個案子台糖是賠了五千多萬……"],["陳院長建仁：五千萬。"],["吳委員思瑤：重修吧！這個部分應當可以做吧？即刻啟動。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：我再一次說，給社會的一堂課，快速結案、責任歸屬、協助地方政府精進、食安打假要升級，還有全民的食安教育都要再強化。這是一個跨部會的事情，院長可不可以承諾，我們可以在1個月內，你有食安會報3個月開一次，食安會報就這個事件之後來召開一次擴大的、跨部會，針對我說的打假，全民食安錯假訊息辨識的教育端在教育部，然後法務部結合怎麼去查緝這些案子。然後回到我們協助地方政府來檢驗、優化，這些需要您跨部會1個月內提出一個好的方案，善用現有的食安會報來進行，可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，這是一個很好的建議，我們會這樣來照辦。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝委員的建議。"],["吳委員思瑤：時間有限，謝謝，辛苦了。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：來，水餃送給您。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳委員思瑤的質詢。","接下來我們請登記第7號徐委員巧芯。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","李坤城","洪孟楷","洪申翰","廖偉翔","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳沛憶","王育敏","何欣純","李彥秀","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009","1130401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「民進黨政府執政八年臺灣食安問題總檢討」專案報告並備質詢─ 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number是今天的專報我看到的新數字早上也在跟王美花部長在做進一步的確認。"},{"start":319.011,"end":337.224,"text":"就是臺堂是這個事件最大的受害者但是臺堂是國營事業啊他的損害就是全民買單啊高達財務損失不管有形無形的變動成本或是調動成本高達5253萬5253這關鍵數字美化部長沒有錯嘛"},{"start":342.458,"end":357.614,"text":"而臺堂在這個事件當中動員的人力高達741人次,包括臺堂自己的工作同仁,還包括這些帶送商。所以美化部長,臺堂的損失怎麼替他平反,誰能來賠啊?"},{"start":360.785,"end":383.452,"text":"目前為止我們趕快把這個事件釐清,然後確認臺堂的豬肉是沒有問題。我想目前的要務我們是先做這件事情。很遺憾沒有人能賠,全民買單。但好在是臺堂,國營事業,老字號,金的條。如果這樣一個事件謠言發生在任何一個民間企業,哇,三天就倒了啦。"},{"start":384.554,"end":398.653,"text":"但是我們有一件事情可以做我覺得我辦公室的幕僚非常的可愛他們都是年輕人他們跟我說老闆臺堂受傷這麼深國家又沒有辦法給他們平反五千多萬開什麼玩笑我們可以做一件事"},{"start":399.69,"end":426.883,"text":"我們可以請消費者就有最大的力量我們一起臺糖停起來臺糖吃起來臺糖的產品買起來剛剛中午我跟我助理去了一趟全聯我們買了臺糖的燕麥片辦公室大家下午下午查一下我們買了臺糖的手工水餃晚上半夜我回家都是半夜可以自己泡自己煮"},{"start":427.967,"end":455.321,"text":"我們買了砂糖我喜歡吃甜我助理特別給我買這麼一大包我不知道吃多久還有台糖很多的罐頭我這裡是鳳梨罐頭其實它有各類的罐頭我們要呼籲所有的消費者挺台糖挺國家的好品牌這是我今天在這裡拋出來的第一個訊號我們可以在這個事件當中獲得一個正向的事情"},{"start":456.314,"end":459.155,"text":"除了有形的損失,其實無形的損失更是難以計算。"},{"start":481.348,"end":509.022,"text":"我很少數可以同意柯文哲的說法可是他這幾天說的話我是同意的他說這就是實驗室污染嘛這簡單的判斷嘛然後呢他也說簡單的事簡單解決他有很多事情要做不要浪費時間在這種無聊的事就是不要再無敵無告無開花啦所以柯文哲主席講的話我也希望民眾黨的委員們要聽"},{"start":510.404,"end":534.808,"text":"我們希望政治上也要停損不要讓意識再空轉我們讓整個事件最起碼的讓我們的食安制度是如何的精進在國人面前被看到而作為政治工作者不要在這個事件上見縫擦針食安就是科學食安不要搞政治好下一頁回到專業問題我們的食安專家會議已經開完了"},{"start":539.429,"end":555.649,"text":"那養殖端沒問題徒仔端沒問題就是出在實驗室的檢測端有問題那您那天告訴我週二說大概兩週要結案可不可能更快好像事實釐清的"},{"start":557.145,"end":557.785,"text":"臺中市政府的責任怎麼來究責?"},{"start":577.437,"end":601.59,"text":"這個部分的話專家委員會應該對於實驗的步驟等等怎麼樣來做更好有一些看法另外一件事情也是大家蠻關心的就是他這個採到檢體到公布這個結果一共有18天的時間可是當他一檢出來有西布特羅的時候並沒有讓台堂有一個申請復驗的這樣的一個機制那所以呢才造成應該在"},{"start":603.041,"end":624.042,"text":"宣布以前應該要有一個復宴的機制可是這個機制並沒有進行就發布。謝謝院長的回覆所以說在事務上下一頁台唐事件教會臺灣的是至少我們中央政府幫地方政府一把在體制上更完備食安不分中央地方不分政黨"},{"start":625.063,"end":651.137,"text":"我們協助地方政府來檢視而且精進他的檢驗作業這個您上週﹐這週二答應我要來做協助各個地方政府也不要只針對臺中市政府也許其他縣市政府六都還是有能量的也許有一些地方政府他更需要專業的軟硬體的協助協助地方政府來精進檢驗的作業的SOP包括軟硬體第二改善資訊公開的流程就您剛講的"},{"start":652.478,"end":679.52,"text":"那我要再進一步說因為這一次他的個案是就是檢驗到非常非常極限值0.001002所以我們也應當在這個對外公開的這個流程裡頭我個人認為是應當要有個分流的機制就是說當一檢測那是大量的污染的時候大量的擴散是系統性的研判的時候趕快公佈但是如果是極微量的"},{"start":680.08,"end":680.24,"text":"我覺得兩條路"},{"start":695.982,"end":720.788,"text":"臺中市議會3月8號就要召開實案的專案會議就回到地方政府負起政治責任監督畢竟是在地方政府我個人對於邀請盧秀燕市長到立法院來備詢或報告我是個人持比較保留啦我認為還是基於地方自治但是另外一個部分也許監察院是一個可以協助釐清這整個事實很重要的一個調查機關"},{"start":722.348,"end":733.2,"text":"也許監委們聽到呼籲我沒有辦法指揮監委當然基於憤悸之間也許這會是一個協助進一步調查的必要的手段好下一頁"},{"start":734.366,"end":754.895,"text":"那這個馬英九任內跟蔡英文任內的食安大型事件我那天分享了7比27件在馬英九任內我們任內有兩件我們盡量做到零容忍但是呢再進步的這件事情是不容抹煞的下一頁"},{"start":755.735,"end":778.347,"text":"所以這幾年來建組織修法案增預算,我們8年投入92.5億來進行食安的提升,遠比馬英九在2016年把政權交到我們手上的時候是多了2.3倍。我呼籲朝野的立委繼續來監督,繼續來支持,做不好就給資源,做不好來修法。"},{"start":779.207,"end":805.74,"text":"而不是處處為難所以我要刻意再把這樣的資訊羅列出來最後一部分是我今天最在意的部分了下一頁實案在進步可是台灣的假訊息讓台灣大退步我很赫然的發現有一個北歐的專業權威的調查謠言獲重假訊息最嚴重的國家台灣連續10年是全球的冠軍"},{"start":807.685,"end":814.993,"text":"臺灣成為一個謠言貨眾世界No.1,這對我們來講何其不堪。下一頁。"},{"start":815.99,"end":839.001,"text":"而官方打假我這裡提出來的是食藥署在2015年成立一個食藥闢謠專區所以9年來有566件的假消息當中食品類有350件佔6成其他有醫療器材的假消息化妝品的假消息跟藥品的假消息非常的嚴重9年來有566件"},{"start":842.562,"end":868.667,"text":"6成是食安所以就我們需要重建全民的辨識食安假訊息的全民教育需要全面來啟動下一頁民間的臺灣事實查核中心這個民間機構NGO他們也具體的在2022年提出小心有毒的食安假訊息他們提出了兩個樣態食安假訊息的樣態一就是救蚊蟲草"},{"start":869.747,"end":898.448,"text":"把過去發生的事來說成是今年新發的事件然後它有照片有圖片然後就引起全民的恐慌另外一種樣態是去脈絡化的再製加蔥加料然後去頭去尾把簡單來講就是重製了一個假消息所以我們全民的食安教育全民的打假怎麼來完備呢我們來到我的最後倒數第二頁"},{"start":899.485,"end":924.96,"text":"院長我們曾經在2019年修了9個法不夠我們針對至少今天這個主題食品安全衛生管理法46條之一針對散佈食品安全謠言或不實訊期只能夠罰台幣100萬今天這個案子台堂是賠了5000多萬重修吧這個部分應當可以做吧即刻啟動然後最後一頁我再一次來說"},{"start":926.386,"end":933.756,"text":"給社會的一堂課快速結案責任歸屬協助地方政府精進食安打假要升級還有"},{"start":982.142,"end":982.995,"text":"MING 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2,"text":"所以8年：好你說做得很好我等一下再講8年來有一半的食安匯報我們的食安匯報執行長也就是衛福部長都缺席有一半而且我還抓包你們不止一年行政院食安匯報的次數還會灌不水你們2017年跟2019年開一次會變成兩次會議"},{"start":685.677,"end":696.493,"text":"我想要請問,你們2017年2019年開支會斷水變成兩次,是不是?當時防疫比較重要,比食安更重要2017年2019年防疫2022年2023年防疫你現在在講的那個時間,很多時間"},{"start":701.38,"end":701.82,"text":"對阿2019到2022年"},{"start":731.821,"end":755.863,"text":"就我們的部長已經就任以後,上一次開會時安會報是2023年3月27日,也就是說到現在已經有333天沒有參加過時安會報了。我想請問院長,如果你很重視時安,你們會是這樣子對待時安會報的嗎?時安如果按照時安會報就能夠解決,那我們不要跨部會的努力啦,也不要跟地方政府合作啦。"},{"start":756.223,"end":768.308,"text":"不是這樣,時安會報只是綜合性的來報告而已啦。綜合性報告不就是掌握進度會跨部會追蹤嗎?因為用這個來推進難怪。那我想問院長,平常當然就應該努力,可是參加時安會報難道不是你們行政院最高編組的會報嗎?"},{"start":779.113,"end":808.593,"text":"不能夠用食安匯報就來認為這個食安我們有沒有重視。你想想看這個台中市發布消息以後每一天都在做這個瘦肉精的重視。那難怪我想要告訴院長所以因為你們這種態度所以2023年你們發生非常多的重大的食安事件冷凍藍莓在邊境被稽查出有A肝病毒但卻發生了14000多包流入市面17000多公斤被賣出或食用"},{"start":809.613,"end":830.887,"text":"同樣在2023年的上半年的邊境稽查就至少超過50多批的日本草莓、智利櫻桃被驗出農藥、禁藥也不必說逐批的這個流入市面的追查進度喔至今讓大家都不明白這件事情你覺得民眾會覺得你們真的很重視食安嗎?當然 2023年的1月到2月的時候"},{"start":831.687,"end":834.368,"text":"所以中央跟地方為什麼要合作來做加強檢驗"},{"start":856.62,"end":871.589,"text":"這都是加強檢驗的結果。這是加強檢驗的結果。如果不做檢驗,那就會進來大家都不知道。所以你是你們還是進去的啊。你說你檢驗出來,但是還有一萬四千多,一萬四千多包流入市面呢?已經被民眾吃下肚了不是嗎?"},{"start":879.133,"end":896.447,"text":"所以我們再來講上一年度最大的事件也就是這個進口雞蛋混沖國產雞蛋標示成國產蛋液。業旦的事情所以同樣的事情因為你們戰後職守沒有開食安會報當初每個部會各說各話互相打臉不是嗎?"},{"start":897.228,"end":912.063,"text":"不是這樣子。不是。那為什麼當初連標示日期都可以搞不清楚?當時的這些雞蛋變成了夜蛋會有標示成台灣產地確實是因為對於這個夜蛋標示的方式認知不一樣"},{"start":912.563,"end":914.884,"text":"同樣當時的台中市也查獲未來彈,標示的生產日期還比實際日期還要長。"},{"start":963.661,"end":965.214,"text":"謝謝兩位委員：偉翔的質詢"}]}},{"id":"149131","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149131","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb6721244f92e455ccfb347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6bee16801113b211b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:30:45 - 11:46:35","影片長度":"00:15:50","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":950,"end_time":"2024-02-23T11:46:35+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T11:30:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":762,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時30分）謝謝院長，請陳院長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：院長，今天的食安專報社會其實等了一段時間，尤其是最近非常非常受到全國矚目的台糖西布特羅事件，從過年前到現在。今年過年我是在臺中過的，我自己就經歷了附近的街坊鄰居在問，臺中市政府驗出了豬肉裡面有西布特羅，到底哪些豬肉有西布特羅，影響的範圍有多廣，他到底該不該再去買豬肉，其實在過年期間都讓一般民眾有很多的困惑，我自己就經歷了這個事情，因為我這次過年是在臺中過的。","院長，我有幾個問題需要在今天的食安專報來討論，第一件事情，食安問題其實就是一個風險管理的問題。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["洪委員申翰：在風險管理的問題上，尤其面對的是行政端，當然大家一定會問一個最核心的命題，其實就是就行政端有沒有什麼該做而未做的事情？我覺得這一定是最核心的問題。剛剛院長在專報的時候也講到，這幾年我們開始釐清了幾個重要的觀念，尤其是食安五環，甚至大家都更知道溯源的重要性，所以我們大概做了一些整理，也就是現在的時間軸，從目前資料看來，從1月15日臺中市政府抽驗，第一次驗出在台糖的豬肉有乙型受體素，也就是西布特羅的事件，到2月2日中市府發出新聞稿宣稱驗出，後面開始陸陸續續從農業部畜產會、SGS等等一路，甚至在最近是由臺南衛生局來檢驗，但是都是未檢驗出。","我比較好奇的是，在1月15日到2月2日中間間隔的這18天，請問經濟部王部長，台糖公司是在哪一天收到臺中市政府的通知？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，台糖是在2月2日臺中市政府對外發出新聞稿之後，我們才知道。"],["洪委員申翰：所以意思是在2月2日發出新聞稿之前，其實臺中市政府並沒有告知台糖公司這件事情？"],["王部長美花：完全沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：所以台糖公司是看了新聞稿才發現的？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["洪委員申翰：這完全不合規定啊！照理來說，它其實要先通知廠商，給廠商15天的時間，15天到了以後才會公告或公布這個不合規定的廠商，按照我們的法規程序是這樣，對不對？可是按照這樣看起來臺中市政府並沒有合乎規定！說實話我一開始看到新聞的時候，我就想臺中市政府是不是真的很心急，很想要一驗出趕快來告知社會、提醒社會？結果後來看到的資料不是這樣，這中間其實臺中市政府默默地自己搞了18天的時間。我想請問部長或者是院長，如果按照一個食安管理專業的話，這18天其實臺中市政府應該要完成哪些事情，或者是在它公布前應該要完成哪些事情，就食安專業來說？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，其實一開始驗到的時候，應該是在15號採樣之後的幾天，它一開始驗到的時候，應該就要去找同批的來double check，臺中的實驗室卻對於同一個檢體再多次的double check……"],["洪委員申翰：22次，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員申翰：我們現在其實陸陸續續把這個事情給釐清了，我說實話，我剛才聽到前面的洪孟楷委員一直在說中央政府要訂SOP，但現在看到的問題反而是臺中市政府連既有的規定都沒有遵守啊……"],["陳院長建仁：也沒有做，對！其實就是……"],["洪委員申翰：你說它很急著公布，它也沒有急啊！它其實搞了18天啊！這18天明明就有很多可以做的事情，包括剛剛說到……"],["陳院長建仁：給台糖……"],["洪委員申翰：如果你馬上去市場上面找出同一批豬肉做相關的檢驗，或者是你跟中央通知了以後，找中央一起來釐清有沒有跨縣市的因素，我覺得這些都很好，至少在你發新聞稿公布的時候，社會大眾、臺中市民會知道：喔！看起來是有驗出，可是大致知道這個事件是一個什麼樣的事件，影響範圍多廣，我到底要不要恐懼、恐慌這件事情，至少大眾就不會遇到過年期間我街坊鄰居的這種擔憂嘛，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：完全對。"],["洪委員申翰：可是現在看起來這是臺中市政府該做而未做的事情，今天大家是在討論這個問題。"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我要說，今天有很多的民意代表並不是跟臺中市政府說不該公布，我們不是說不該公布，當然驗到了，秉持著透明的原則，該公布，就公布，這沒有問題。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["洪委員申翰：但現在的問題是，好像在公布前明明有很多該做的事情，你沒做到，反而才造成這個社會不必要的恐慌嘛。院長，是不是這樣子？"],["陳院長建仁：最重要的一件事情就是剛才你提到的，它應該要有15天的時間讓台糖申請複驗才能夠公布，完全沒有做到，這18天的時間它沒有去通知台糖，給台糖有一個申請複驗的機會，這就是沒有按照SOP。"],["洪委員申翰：如果我是臺中市政府的話，在1月15號驗出，一、兩天內我就通知台糖，我給15天，我其實可能還是可以在2月2號公布，可是我可以在2月2號前就把該做的事情給做完，還可以同時把同批的豬肉都檢驗完成，讓大家知道不用那麼擔心，也許真的就只有這一塊天選之肉遇到了問題，社會不會有這麼多恐慌，所以我們現在說的都不是臺中市政府不該公布。可是我覺得很遺憾，不管是在野黨把它扭曲成現在執政黨是說好像臺中市政府不該公布，並不是！我們是說你公布前該做的事情沒有做，我想這是最重要的事情。","院長，我下面接下來要請問，因為我想我們其實都學過科學，我們都進過實驗室工作，這件事情發生以後，有很多過去跟我們一起有實驗室工作經驗的人，直接就說這是實驗室事件；當然我知道現在就直接的調查來說，不容易直接證明這件事情，因為當下就像我們說的我們沒有攝影，所以到底是不是，或者到底為什麼這塊豬肉會出現乙型受體素──西布特羅？當然現在我知道大家還在調查之中。","我們把幾個可能的因素列出來，我想一個一個請教院長跟部長，現在為什麼只有臺中的那一盒豬肉驗出？第一個我想問，養殖場是不是含有西布特羅成分的藥品？目前。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我先跟委員說明，就是豬的……"],["洪委員申翰：你們查的狀況是什麼樣子？"],["陳代理部長駿季：豬進到屠宰場是統進統出……"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以在第一時間我們移動管制以後，去針對那個豬場去做所有的清查，是沒有的……"],["洪委員申翰：對，好。我們剛剛……"],["陳代理部長駿季：然後我們也清查了飼料，飼料也沒有啊。"],["洪委員申翰：所以這個養殖場是沒有的，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是！"],["洪委員申翰：好，那飼料的部分有沒有？"],["陳代理部長駿季：同樣的飼料我們也是同步在檢查，包括豬隻檢查、飼料也檢查，如果這兩個沒有的話，相對的在這個豬場使用西布特羅應該是不會有的。"],["洪委員申翰：好，所以養殖場沒有、豬場沒有，飼料上面也沒有。那我要問現在檢查的同一批豬肉，目前查了多少？同一批豬肉有沒有驗出來？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我所瞭解目前的同一批豬肉，從2月2號公布以後我們開始去查，到目前為止，同一批、同品項的豬肉都沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：好，同一批同品項豬肉也沒有。有沒有進口的豬肉混充到？"],["陳代理部長駿季：有關於豬肉屠宰，特別台糖是一個履歷驗證人，它是委託信功去屠宰，屠宰場本身有HACCP的認證，我們也調查當天的整個屠宰過程中，只有台糖的那一批豬肉進到屠宰場，並沒有其他的豬肉進到這個屠宰場裡面，所以不會有其他的豬肉混充。"],["洪委員申翰：所以院長，我們秉持著科學的精神，當然我知道我們現在沒辦法直接證明實驗室裡面發生什麼問題，因為剛才說我們沒有攝影，但我能想到的方法就是刪去法。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["洪委員申翰：我能想到的就是刪去法。"],["陳院長建仁：這很科學，很有證據性。"],["洪委員申翰：我們只能用一個科學的邏輯來處理這個問題，所以不是養殖場，看起來飼料裡面沒有、同一批也沒有，也不是進口混充，甚至剛才說進到這個屠宰場只有這一批，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["洪委員申翰：在這個狀況裡面坦白說，真的讓大家很難不懷疑是實驗室，當然我要說我們目前沒有直接的證據說一定是實驗室事件，我們也從新聞看到臺中市的這位人員在專家會議裡面有些情緒，也許他也覺得委屈，但不管怎樣，從刪去法來看的話，大家現在很難不懷疑是實驗室事件，我覺得這邊有一些大家必須互相體諒的事情，至少這在邏輯上面是很清楚的，我們用科學的邏輯來看待這個風險管理的事情。","接下來我要再問一個問題，王部長。部長，台糖公司有一份公文是發給臺中市政府，要求市政府應該要加驗同批的豬肉，台糖有發這個公文，對不對？"],["王部長美花：對、是。"],["洪委員申翰：臺中市政府怎麼回應？"],["王部長美花：臺中市其實沒有回我們，我們是看到它在媒體講它沒有這樣的機制。"],["洪委員申翰：我看到2月17日有一份公文上面寫歉難受理。"],["王部長美花：後來它回我們了。"],["洪委員申翰：它說歉難受理？"],["王部長美花：對。"],["洪委員申翰：它講歉難受理的理由是什麼？"],["王部長美花：它的意思是它都是主動抽驗，如果每個人都送給它，要求它驗的話，它說沒有這樣的機制。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你覺得這個拒絕的理由合理嗎？"],["王部長美花：但是因為這件事情對台糖影響太大、對臺灣的豬肉影響太大，所以當時我們才會希望地方政府可不可以就同批肉做前後檢驗，其實我們是想要確認這樣的事情。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，不只你希望知道，我跟你說就連我自己也希望知道。我說我過年在臺中，我有很多親戚朋友都在臺中，有很多的臺中市民都想知道，如果看到一塊豬肉有西布特羅，到底影響的範圍有多廣？同批豬肉是不是都有？我想這是很多臺中市民都想知道的事情，如果不是台糖發文，我覺得很多臺中市民都想發文要求是不是應該驗同批豬肉啊！所以我想問部長，你覺得剛才它拒絕的理由合不合理？"],["王部長美花：我想這是臺中市的職權，對於台糖我們中央政府後來也請其他地方去抽，台糖把所有找得到的同批肉都找到以後也讓大家來驗，然後也找第三方來驗。"],["洪委員申翰：你們後來是給臺南來驗，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["洪委員申翰：臺南就願意驗了，對不對？"],["王部長美花：對。"],["洪委員申翰：我聽起來臺南比臺中市政府更有科學精神啊！我看起來臺南市政府比臺中市政府更想瞭解真相啊！我其實真的不懂一個想瞭解食安真相的地方政府為什麼會拒絕，我真的不懂。你有這麼多的市民想知道真相到底是什麼，你到底有什麼理由拒絕？你有什麼理由不想再驗了？是臺中市實驗室的能量不足嗎？部長。"],["王部長美花：這個我沒有辦法置評，因為豬肉對國人是一個非常重要的產品，所以我們很想、很想快一點讓大家有信心。"],["洪委員申翰：院長，我從一開始看到這個新聞的時候，我覺得盧市長看起來好像是一個食安的守護者，很勇於揭露、公布驗到的事情，可是大家愈瞭解以後愈發現事實不是這樣啊！你在公布前本來就有很多該做的事情沒有做，造成一定程度的恐慌，後面當有更多人想要請你釐清的時候、想要請你加驗的時候，結果你又拒絕，我覺得這態度很奇怪啊！這個態度讓我不覺得臺中市是一個食安守護者，我覺得它是一個食安守護者的地方政府的話，有很多該做的事情它沒做，這是大家現在最困惑的地方。","最後，部長，現在當然我們這幾天有跟台糖公司索資，看到這一次同批商品下架總共是17公噸，台糖公司估計損失直接跟間接的總共大概五千多萬元，動員人力大概是七百多人，而且重點是這個動員的人力恐怕很多都是在春節年假期間，是嗎？對不對？"],["王部長美花：沒有錯。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我們也看到有很多台糖的業務跟相關沒有辦法休息的人員出來在媒體上面講，他們也很想哭嘛！可是最後我想要反映一件事情，其實這件事情我們在立法院談了快一個月的時間、談了幾個禮拜的時間，也許三個禮拜的時間，有很多的市民大眾朋友請我務必一定要跟經濟部、台糖跟行政院反映，這一次的事件看起來，現在釐清至今，有很多包括豬農，包括很多廠商，名譽是有受損，我們剛才看到間接、直接的損失，他們都問我一個事情是，我們不能夠善罷干休，不能夠這樣就算了，院長，這個我們應該會追究下去，會繼續釐清下去吧？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：應該要。"],["王部長美花：對台糖的信譽當然是非常重要。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["洪委員申翰：要麻煩院長，這是很多一般民眾的心聲，希望不要讓大家覺得我們就這樣草草地、隨便地，好像事情過了就算了，謝謝院長，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員申翰的質詢。","接下來我們請登記第5位廖委員偉翔質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":277,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1130401_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.48971875,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.324718750000002,"end":11.219093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11.961593750000002,"end":13.446593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.559718750000002,"end":19.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.42034375,"end":26.406593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.199718750000002,"end":28.245968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.785968750000002,"end":30.945968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.418468750000002,"end":41.205968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.69534375,"end":47.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47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check但是臺中的實驗室這邊的話他是卻對同一個檢體在多次的double check22次對不對對"},{"start":290.491,"end":311.902,"text":"我們現在其實陸陸續續把這個事情給釐清了。我說實話我剛才聽到前面的這個洪申翰委員剛才一直在說這個中央政府要訂SOP,但現在看到的問題反而是台中政府連既有的規定都沒有遵守啊。你說他很急的公佈,他有沒有急啊?他其實搞了18天啊。"},{"start":314.073,"end":342.15,"text":"這18天明明就有很多可以做的事情包括剛剛說到如果你就很馬上的去市場上面找出同一批主流來做相關的檢驗或者是你跟中央通知了以後找中央一起來釐清有沒有跨縣市的因素我覺得這些都很好至少在你發新聞稿公布的時候社會大眾台中市民會知道說看起來是有驗出可是大致這個事件是一個什麼樣的事件影響範圍多廣"},{"start":343.251,"end":364.83,"text":"我到底要不要恐懼恐慌這件事情至少大眾就不會遇到我在過年時間我們接訪鄰居的這種擔憂嘛對不對可是現在看起來這是台中市政府該做而未做的事情今天我們大家是在討論這個問題所以我要說今天我們從不管是這個有很多的民意代表我們並不是跟台中市政府說你不該"},{"start":366.516,"end":387.519,"text":"你不該公佈。我們不是說你不該公佈。當然驗到了秉持著透明的原則該公佈就公佈這沒有問題。但現在的問題是好像你在公佈前有明明很多該做的事情你沒做到反而才造成這個社會不必要的恐慌嗎?院長是不是這樣子?最重要的一件事情就是剛才你提到的"},{"start":387.839,"end":402.868,"text":"他應該要有15天的時間讓臺堂申請復驗才能夠公佈完全沒有做到那這18天的時間他沒有去通知臺堂給臺堂來有一個申請復驗的機會這就是沒有按照SOP啦"},{"start":403.248,"end":428.54,"text":"其實如果是台湾市政府的話我如果在1月15日宴出我如果一兩天內我就通知台湾我給15天我其實可能還是可以在2月2日的時候公布可是我可以在2月2日前就把該做的事情給做完我還可以同時把同批的豬肉都檢驗完成讓大家知道不用那麼擔心也許真的就只有這一塊天選之肉是遇到了問題其實社會不會這麼多恐慌的"},{"start":428.88,"end":455.879,"text":"所以我們現在說的都不是台中市政府不該公布可是我覺得很遺憾有一度現在這個不管是在台黨把他扭曲成現在執政黨是說好像台中市政府不該公布並不是我們是說你該公布前該做的事情沒有做我想這是最重要的事情院長我下面接下來要請問因為我想我們其實都學過科學我們都進過實驗室的工作裡面其實這件事情發生以後我有很多過去跟我們一起在有實驗室工作經驗的人他直接就說"},{"start":457.008,"end":457.148,"text":"下一張齁"},{"start":480.831,"end":488.192,"text":"再往下其實我們把幾個可能的因素其實列出來我一個一個想請教院長跟部長"},{"start":489.824,"end":518.546,"text":"現在為什麼只有臺中市臺中的那一盒豬肉驗出第一個我想問養殖場是不是有含有西伏特羅成分的藥品目前我先跟委員說明就是豬的那個進到屠宰場是統進統出所以我們第一時間我們就移動管制以後去針對那個豬場去做所有的清查是沒有的然後我們也清查了飼料飼料沒有所以這個養殖場是沒有的對不對那飼料的部分有沒有"},{"start":519.066,"end":538.187,"text":"對那同樣的飼料我們也是同步在檢查包括豬隻檢查飼料檢查如果這兩個沒有的話那相對的他在這個豬場使用的西部特羅應該是不會有的好所以養殖場沒有豬場沒有飼料上面也沒有那我要問現在檢查的同一批豬肉目前查了多少同一批豬肉有沒有驗出來"},{"start":539.569,"end":553.748,"text":"我所了解現在目前的同一批豬肉從2月2號公佈以後我們開始去查到目前為止同一批同品項的豬肉都沒有同一批同品項豬肉也沒有那有沒有進口的豬肉混沖到"},{"start":554.489,"end":579.675,"text":"有關於整個的一個豬肉的屠宰特別是臺堂是一個履歷驗證人他是委託信工去做屠宰那屠宰場本身他有HACCP的一個認證那我們也調查了整個當天的屠宰的過程中只有臺堂的那一批豬肉進到屠宰場並沒有其他的豬肉進到這個屠宰場裡面去所以不會有其他的豬肉去做粉蔥所以院長"},{"start":580.879,"end":595.486,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":595.7,"end":610.367,"text":"我能夠想到三句嗎?我們只能用一個科學的邏輯來處理這個問題。所以不是養殖場,看起來飼料裡面沒有,同一批也沒有,也不是進口混充。甚至剛才說進到這個屠宰場只有這一批對不對?"},{"start":611.167,"end":628.968,"text":"那在這個狀況裡面坦白說真的讓大家很難不懷疑是實驗室但我要說我們目前沒有直接的證據說一定是實驗室事件我們也看到新聞看到臺中市的這位人員在專家會議裡面看起來是有些情緒也許他也覺得委屈但不管怎樣"},{"start":631.05,"end":656.765,"text":"從刪去法來看的話大家現在很難不懷疑是實驗室事件我覺得這邊有一些大家必須互相體諒的事情至少這邏輯上面是很清楚的我們用科學的邏輯來看待這個風險管理的事情那接下來我要再問了一個問題包括這個王部長部長再往下部長這個台堂公司有一份公文"},{"start":657.998,"end":687.37,"text":"那發文給台中市政府要求市政府應該要加驗同批的豬肉這個台黨有發這個公文嘛對不對對是那台中市政府怎麼回應台中市政府其實沒有回我們那我們是看到他在媒體講說他沒有沒有這樣的一個機制我看到2月17他有一份公文他上面寫說欠男受理後來他回我們了是他說欠男受理那他講欠男受理的理由是什麼"},{"start":688.424,"end":714.337,"text":"他的意思是說我都是我主動來抽驗那如果每個人都送給我要求我驗的話他說沒有這樣的一個機制部長你覺得這個拒絕的理由合理嗎但是因為這件事情對台糖影響太大對台灣的豬肉影響太大所以當時我們才會希望地方政府可不可以就同批肉的來前後檢驗其實我們是想要確認這樣的事情"},{"start":714.497,"end":721.307,"text":"市長不只你希望知道我跟你說就連我自己就是說我說我過年在台中我們有很多親戚朋友都在台中"},{"start":722.15,"end":746.164,"text":"有很多的台中市民都想知道到底如果看到一塊豬肉有西部特羅到底影響的範圍有多廣同批豬肉是不是都有我想這連很多台中市民都想知道的事情如果不是台南發文我覺得很多台中市民都想發文要求你是不是應該驗同批豬肉啊所以我想問部長你覺得剛才說他說他現在拒絕的理由你覺得合不合理"},{"start":748.761,"end":772.269,"text":"我想這是台中市的職權,所以這個台堂我們後來也中央政府請其他的地方去抽,那我們台堂也把所有同批肉找的到都找到以後,也讓大家來驗,然後也找第三方來驗。你們後來現在是給台南來驗嘛對不對?是。那台南就願意驗了嘛對不對?我聽看起來台南比台中市政府更有科學精神啊。"},{"start":773.169,"end":794.657,"text":"我看起來台南市政府比台中市政府更想了解真相啊我其實真的不懂一個想了解食安真相的地方政府為什麼會拒絕我真的不懂你有這麼多的市民想知道到底真相是什麼你到底有什麼理由拒絕你有什麼理由不想再驗了是台中市的實驗室能量不足嗎部長"},{"start":796.829,"end":820.918,"text":"這個我沒有辦法置評,但是我覺得因為豬肉對國人是一個非常重要的一個產品,所以我們覺得很想很想快一點讓大家有信心。我從一開始看到這新聞的時候,我覺得盧市長看起來好像是一個食安的守護者,很勇於的去揭露公佈他驗到的事情,可是大家越了解以後越發現事實不是這樣啊。"},{"start":822.378,"end":851.053,"text":"你在公布前本來就有很多該做的事情沒有做造成了一定程度的恐慌但後面當今天有更多人想要請你離親的時候想要請你加驗的時候結果你又拒絕我覺得這態度很奇怪啊這個態度讓我不覺得台中市是一個食安守護者的態度啊我覺得是一個食安守護者的地方政府的話我該做我有很多該做的事情他沒做啊我覺得這是大家現在最困惑的地方最後部長再往下齁"},{"start":853.525,"end":873.457,"text":"現在我們當然這幾天有跟台南公司所知那看到這一次同批商品下架總共是1.7公噸台南公司估計損失直接跟間接的總共大概5000多萬元動員人力大概是700多萬而且重點是這個動員的人力"},{"start":873.917,"end":902.191,"text":"恐怕很多都是在春節的年假期間是嗎對不對沒有錯所以我們也看到有很多台堂的業務跟相關沒有辦法休息的人員出來在媒體上面有講他們也很想哭嘛這樣子那可是我最後我想要反映一件事情其實這件事情我們在立法院談了快一個月的時間談了幾個禮拜的時間也許三個禮拜的時間其實我們有很多的市民大眾朋友他請我務必一定要跟"},{"start":903.756,"end":922.389,"text":"經濟部跟台堂跟行政院反映這一次的事件看起來現在釐清至今有很多這個包括豬農包括很多的廠商民運是有受損我們剛剛看到間接直接的損失他們都問我一個事情是我們"},{"start":950.862,"end":950.964,"text":"本集完"}]}},{"id":"149130","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149130","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb608c1c7b5db0f5106b347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a663f0fce8a60f9f685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:14:46 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11:30:33","影片長度":"00:15:47","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":947,"end_time":"2024-02-23T11:30:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T11:14:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":617,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時14分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請陳院長建仁院長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：洪委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長好。國人都關心食安，這就是為什麼立法院要求您率相關部會同仁來做食安專報。"],["陳院長建仁：對，應該的。"],["洪委員孟楷：這次我們強調瘦肉精的食安事件，從過年前到現在，讓事件走偏的是中央衛福部次長王必勝，在第一時間地方政府驗出問題就是希望解決問題、找出問題、釐清原因，但為什麼會看到中央跟地方一時間不同步？也因此我先順著李坤城委員剛剛的質詢，你也講到未來的事件。本席也希望經過這一次之後未來的事件……你有提到地方政府如果驗到太低的劑量時，應該要再做同批次的檢驗，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，低是多低？標準是什麼？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這個會按照不同的……來看，這個一定要訂定標準……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為現在的食安，如果說檢驗食品發生異狀的話，通報的機制為何？"],["陳院長建仁：現在的情形，如果檢驗出來有低劑量的情況下，地方政府當然就需要來通報，但是我剛才也強調，當很低劑量的時候，很可能是檢驗的誤差。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在是不是只有一個標準，就是「合格」或「不合格」？"],["陳院長建仁：對，現在的標準就是「檢出」或「無檢出」，但是實驗有一個實驗室的檢出標準，實驗室的檢出標準是0.001ppm，因為它很接近……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我講一下。0.001ppm是很低的情況，檢測的值都靠近它的時候，自己就要很謹慎會不會有實驗的誤差，這也是學者專家所……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，現在的標準、現在的通報機制……"],["陳院長建仁：是不能檢出。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在的通報機制是不能檢出嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：但是因為實驗的劑……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以……"],["陳院長建仁：我講一下，實驗有實驗室最低檢出的劑量，就是0.001ppm以下，即使你有，實驗室現有的技術也檢測不來，那個叫做技術的下限，最低限就是0.001ppm，我要強調的是這個。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我想這個部分，中央也好，還是地方的實驗人員也都非常清楚跟瞭解，因為我們都相信地方政府，不管是哪一個政府的實驗人員也都是專業的，會以專業考量跟用專業對話，但目前的通報機制就是，如果是中央指派的專案，有登載系統可以回報檢驗結果，但如果是地方的專案稽查的話，結果是自行保留即可，而且發現不合格的產品，先將不合格的報告交給業者，依據食品安全衛生管理法第三十九條來做15天的申請回覆。如果確認結果無虞的時候，衛生機關單位就要對外公布不合格的名單，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對，是這樣規定。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：也因此，本席再講，這次臺中市政府是不是都是依照食品安全衛生管理來通報、規劃？我現在請教院長。"],["陳院長建仁：我要確認的就是，實際上檢驗出來以後，剛才您講得很對，要跟業者講，業者要有15天的申訴期，申訴完了以後再來說，但是這一塊……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這一次是不是地方政府都合乎相關的規範？"],["陳院長建仁：這一塊的操作……"],["洪委員孟楷：也都依照過去的SOP來做。"],["陳院長建仁：臺中市政府怎麼樣做，他檢驗出來以後，按照這個情形來看的話……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席只想確定，你剛剛一直在講……"],["陳院長建仁：我也是想確定臺中市政府有沒有讓台糖……"],["洪委員孟楷：來，你先聽本席把問題問完你再回答。本席只想確定，既然你也認為這一次因為劑量有驗出，本來是不得驗出的，因為有驗出，但是你認為、你的主觀認定這是相對低的，也因此你覺得地方政府應該要多驗幾批肉。"],["陳院長建仁：當然啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：好。本席就說，未來是不是中央要開定一個全國的食安會議，要求、告訴地方政府後續應該怎麼做？訂出一個標準，低是多低，多少的範圍裡面要求地方政府應該要再重新檢驗？應該要做這樣的確定，而不是今天看到臺中市政府、明天看到高雄市政府。我就請教，如果今天另外一個縣市再驗出一樣的肉，他要怎麼處理？"],["陳院長建仁：驗出一樣的，而且在低劑量的時候，要有15天的時間讓廠商申請複驗以後才公布。"],["洪委員孟楷：這是我剛才講過的話，我現在是要問你，你要怎麼做？"],["陳院長建仁：但問題是臺中市政府沒有給他15天嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：有，臺中市政府有要求台糖，所以臺中市政府才會跟業者持續在溝通啊！也在確認啊！"],["陳院長建仁：但是還沒有到這個日程的時候他就公布。第二個就是我剛才講的，你剛才講，所有的實驗室要怎麼樣來加強檢驗的水準，這個在食安五環裡面我們花了二十幾億，就是要讓地方政府的檢驗能力能夠增強，SOP我們也要來做……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，你搞錯本席問題的方向……"],["陳院長建仁：標準作業流程我們也要來做。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席現在要做的是除了這次的事件以外，接下來我們怎麼樣加強中央和地方……"],["陳院長建仁：對，對、對、對，我就是……"],["洪委員孟楷：同心一致捍衛國人的食品安全，也因此現在應該是中央如果認為在這一次過程裡面，有什麼樣的狀況可以更精進的，當然應該要訂出標準，不是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是，就是我剛才……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候要訂出標準？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，就是我剛才講的……"],["洪委員孟楷：那就是過去沒有標準，什麼時候要訂出標準？"],["陳院長建仁：這就是我剛才講的SOP嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候要訂出標準？"],["陳院長建仁：這個SOP我們會請專家學者來討論，我們儘快的，可能在1、2個月的時間內就會訂出標準來。"],["洪委員孟楷：2個月內開全國的食安檢討會議，是不是這樣？"],["陳院長建仁：這個不一定要開全國的檢討會議，這有專家學者會議，其實就能夠就不同成分、不同化學品的標準……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以2個月內由誰召開？"],["陳院長建仁：當然是由食藥署啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：食藥署署長。"],["陳院長建仁：當然啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。本席再請教，昨天媒體報導提到專家學者會議傳出臺中的列席代表淚灑會場，院長或是部長有沒有知道這個訊息？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是沒有接到這樣的訊息，不過……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有接到這樣的訊息……"],["薛部長瑞元：我在……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有看到媒體報導？"],["薛部長瑞元：有，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有去瞭解一下為什麼會有這樣的訊息？照理講，地方的衛生人員也很有專業，在過年這段期間不眠不休，怎麼會說一個專家食安會議造成他淚灑會場？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以專業與科學的事情用情緒去處理是不對的啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在在講是誰用情緒去處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：淚灑就是一種情緒嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你現在在指責臺中的……"],["薛部長瑞元：我沒有指責，我是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，部長，您這樣的回答很不精準，本席沒有辦法聽得懂你的回答是什麼意思。"],["薛部長瑞元：不必把這件事情當成一件事去處理。"],["陳院長建仁：抱歉！他真的是因為感冒。其實在昨天這個開會的過程當中有沒有淚灑，怎麼樣說都是媒體的報導，我沒有辦法去查證，可是有一件事情很重要，在昨天的討論過程當中專家學者就實驗室的操作過程當中是怎麼樣來操作有很詳盡的調查，也許在這樣調查的過程當中讓這個被調查的臺中市同仁感到有壓力也說不定，但是因為我們不在現場，而且媒體也沒有人在現場……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，您提到的重點來了，從過去到現在，本席也好或國人也好，對於所謂的專家會議，也有人建議，因為這事關全民的，不管是食品安全或是過去疫情期間國人使用疫苗等等相關安全，我們都講專家會議是不是能夠比照譬如美國，用全程直播的方式，讓大家也瞭解專家會議的專業對話，或者是專家會議可以有對外的會議紀錄？但是過去……"],["陳院長建仁：都有啊！都有啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：是，都有，但是全都是去標識化，而且都是過了1個月、2個月才出來啊！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有、沒有，我們這次的會議不像你這樣講的，你誤解了……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為是還沒有出來啊……"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！因為你還沒有看到報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，2月21日的會議有全程直播嗎？2月21日的會議有公開嗎……"],["陳院長建仁：你就下結論，這樣不好啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：2月21日的會議有公開嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有啊！但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有公開嘛！院長，所以我必須糾正您剛剛講的話，您剛剛講不是像我所講的，我剛剛講的每一句話都是事實。","再來，第二個部分，過去專家會議可不可以公開？"],["陳院長建仁：我們等到專家會議的結論出來了以後，當然會公開啊！但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是過程沒有辦法公開？"],["陳院長建仁：過去當然有啊！有些有公開啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！我必須再糾正您，如果有公開的專家會議，您可以後續再給本席資料，但是過去好幾次重大的，包括疫苗的審定，包括這次的食安會議專家會議，都沒有公開，也因此才會造成您剛剛講的，就是您也不清楚報傳臺中市代表淚灑是什麼原因，因為大家都沒有看到過程……"],["陳院長建仁：因為你在講現在嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：但是現在臺中市政府有沒有……"],["陳院長建仁：現在紀錄還沒出來嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：確實有淚灑這樣的狀況嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：紀錄還沒有出來。"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，有淚灑……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在在請教院長，部長，不用插話，部長，不用插話。依照立法院職權行使法，本席有要求您發言的時候，您再發言，這樣可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我還是……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我可不可以請教什麼時候這個專家會議的結論會出來？"],["陳院長建仁：好，那個3月份我們就……"],["洪委員孟楷：3月幾號？現在是2月23號。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！3月會出來，因為我們可能還要決定要不要開第二次的會議等等，但是我可以跟委員講，這個開會的結果會公告，而且開會的委員名單會公告，他們個人發表的意見也會公告。"],["洪委員孟楷：開會的委員名單會公告？"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！等到最後的時候。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，院長，我確定喔！因為之前有好幾次會議是開會委員名單沒有公告，所以您剛剛在本席質詢答復的時候已經特別講了，這一次瘦肉精事件的開會委員名單會公告。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝院長。院長，接下來我想利用一點時間，因為跟食安一樣重要的國安議題也正在發酵。"],["陳院長建仁：今天好像問食安嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：對，沒有錯，但是因為今天國安議題也持續在發酵。2月14號有發生過陸船來到金門造成翻覆的事件，我不會問您細節，您放心，我現在只要請教您幾個比較關鍵性的議題，也是國人大家都關注的，就是說在這一個過程裡面，想請教一下院長，因為現在我們看到針對海巡署相關這一些管理條例來講，有關執勤辦法，他必須在執勤的時候穿著制服並且以照相、錄音、錄影的方式來蒐證、保全相關事證。現在傳出2月14號我們的執法人員並沒有密錄器，然後船上也沒有攝影設備，你什麼時候知道這個事情？"],["陳院長建仁：這件事情是昨天我瞭解到有這樣的狀況，最主要的是……"],["洪委員孟楷：您到昨天才知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們來講兩件事，第一個就是他本身帶的攝影器具，第二個就是船本身，這個船的情況本來就是沒有裝置固定的……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，因為這個事件是一個國安事件，本席再次重申立場，本席絕對支持我們的執法人員依法行政。"],["陳院長建仁：太好了。"],["洪委員孟楷：依法行政的其中一個部分就是我們有所謂的海巡執法作業規範。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：在第九條裡面清楚明白寫著要以照相、錄音、錄影或其他蒐證方式，保全相關事證，或者是遇到反抗或攻擊的時候全程錄影照相存證，並依規定通報反映。","好，請教2月14號下午一點多發生的事情，您在什麼時候接獲到海委會跟您通盤報告？"],["陳院長建仁：有關海委會通盤的報告，我們陸陸續續都有討論啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以第一時間、第一開始是什麼時候跟您回報的？"],["陳院長建仁：第一個就是事情發生的第二天我就知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：第二天是2月15號，您有沒有好奇、有沒有詢問過程？因為國人都在看，照理講你有密錄器，2019年海委會主委就已經在立法院答詢，說我們的海巡弟兄在任何執勤的時候都有掛密錄器，你有沒有詢問密錄器相關或者當天發生的事實？"],["陳院長建仁：2月15號我沒有問他，因為我不太清楚相關的規定。"],["洪委員孟楷：您不太清楚相關規定，到什麼時候您才清楚？"],["陳院長建仁：大家在討論說到底當時整個在做好抵制這個船入境的情況，大家在講到蒐證的時候，我才曉得他們沒有蒐證，這個原因最主要是因為當時時間很短暫，他們沒有帶隨身相關的密錄器，而且因為時間很短，就只有不到1分鐘的反應時間，所以他們來不及錄影，這是我所得到的訊息。"],["洪委員孟楷：你所得到的訊息？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是現在，今天早上徐巧芯委員拿到相關的資料，其實這過程裡面有三、四十分鐘，而不是如同現在海巡署記者會講的，只有5分鐘的時間。"],["陳院長建仁：這件事情檢調已經在偵察……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，這個會再查證。當然，留待偵查，所以我今天也講說徐巧芯委員拿到的資料……"],["陳院長建仁：我也希望大家都要相信司法，不要以訛傳訛。"],["洪委員孟楷：徐巧芯委員拿到的是爆料者、吹哨者的資料。"],["陳院長建仁：所以不要以訛傳訛也很重要。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是我想請教院長的是，昨天我也看到了，你馬上說動用第二預備金2,650萬去做三千多具密錄器的採購。"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["洪委員孟楷：國人馬上就想請問海巡署一年的預算有多少錢？"],["陳院長建仁：海巡署一年的預算，說老實話，你現在這樣臨時問我……"],["洪委員孟楷：250億，扣掉人事費用130億，還有120億，120億的預算裡面，過去民進黨執政八年的時間，連給執勤人員一個密錄器都沒有辦法嗎？250億裡面只占了……你說動用第二預備金只有兩千多萬，照理講早就應該給每一個執勤人員，不是嗎？如果每個執勤人員都有密錄器的話，今天拿出密錄器的資料就不用各說各話，就不用猜測了，不是嗎？所以院長，本席很善意地提醒，在這件事情上面不要造成敵意螺旋，我們絕對支持海巡弟兄依法行政，但是該給海巡弟兄的保障一定要給予，你同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：對，同意，我們會給。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員孟楷的質詢，接下來請登記第4號洪委員申翰質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":277,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1130401_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.084093750000001,"end":13.007843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.649093750000002,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.28096875,"end":20.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.972843750000003,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.98971875,"end":21.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.85034375,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.79909375,"end":35.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.89034375,"end":39.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.125968750000006,"end":51.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.314093750000005,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.02846875,"end":70.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.60221875,"end":72.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.54284375,"end":80.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.71096875,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.03096875,"end":81.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.23346875,"end":81.31784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.31784375000001,"end":81.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.58784375,"end":82.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.16159375000001,"end":82.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.86596875000001,"end":98.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.22659375,"end":101.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.44971875,"end":124.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.18784375000001,"end":103.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.74346875,"end":111.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.77721875,"end":111.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.74596875,"end":126.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.09159375,"end":126.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.49221875,"end":126.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.50909375,"end":126.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.76221875,"end":128.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.41596875000002,"end":132.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.25971875000002,"end":130.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.42784375000002,"end":147.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.21034375000002,"end":149.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.24409375000002,"end":200.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.62596875,"end":189.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.87721875000003,"end":200.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.89409375000002,"end":200.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.11346875,"end":224.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.28471875000002,"end":215.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.41909375,"end":218.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.38909375,"end":219.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.873468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論的過程當中我們的專家學者就是就實驗室的操作的過程當中是怎麼樣來操作有做很詳盡的調查也許在這樣調查的過程當中讓這個被"},{"start":470.751,"end":473.812,"text":"院長您提到的重點來了從過去到現在本席也好或說國人也好"},{"start":485.876,"end":504.353,"text":"就對於是說所謂的專家會議也有人建議因為這事關全民的不管是食品安全或是過去疫情期間國人使用疫苗等等相關安全我們都講說專家會議是不是能夠比照比如說像美國能夠用全程直播的方式讓大家也了解專家的會議專業的對話"},{"start":506.835,"end":525.744,"text":"或者是專家會議裡面可以有對外的一個會議記錄。但是過去是都有,但全都是去標示化,而且都是過了一個月兩個月才出來啊。我們這一次的會議不是不像你這樣講的,你誤解了。因為是還沒有出來啊。因為你還沒有刊登報告,你就下結論,這樣不好啦。二月21號的會議有公開嗎?"},{"start":536.25,"end":557.25,"text":"所以院長我必須說就是您剛剛講的話您剛剛講說不是像我所講的我剛剛講的每一句話都是事實再來第二個部分過去我們講是說我們的專家會議可不可以公開專家會議的結果我們等到結論出來了以後我們當然會公開啊但是過程沒有辦法公開過去當然有啊有些有公開是啊有"},{"start":558.393,"end":579.435,"text":"我必須再糾正您喔如果說有公開的專家會議您可以再給本席後續再給本席資料但是過去好幾次重大的包括疫苗的審定包括這一次的一個食安會議專家會議都沒有公開也因此才會造成您剛剛講的就是說您也不清楚說爆傳台中市代表淚灑是什麼原因"},{"start":579.795,"end":599.426,"text":"因為大家都沒有看到過程,但是現在台中市政府有媒體去問,確實有類撒這樣的一個狀況嗎?但是紀錄還沒有出來。現在再請教院長,部長不用插話。依照立法院職權新施法本席有要求您發言的時候,您再發言,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":601.204,"end":620.111,"text":"來,院長,所以重點,院長我可不可以請教,什麼時候這個專家會議結論會出來?好,那個3月份的時候我們就做出來。現在是2月23號。對啊,我們3月的時候會出來,因為我們可能還要決定要不要開第二次的會議等等。所以,但是我可以跟委員講,這個"},{"start":621.671,"end":621.851,"text":"好,謝謝院長。"},{"start":650.336,"end":658.191,"text":"院長接下來我想利用一點時間因為食安跟食安一樣重要的國安議題也正在發酵。就好像問食安嗎?"},{"start":659.208,"end":680.371,"text":"對沒有錯但是因為這一今天國安議題也持續在發酵我想2月14號就有發生過這個陸船來到金門的這個事件而造成這個翻覆我不會問您細節您放心我現在只要請教您幾個比較關鍵性的議題也是家國人大家都關注的就是說在這一個過程裡面想請教一下"},{"start":682.261,"end":708.922,"text":"院長因為現在我們看到針對海巡署的相關的這一些管理條例來講他是必須執勤辦法他是必須在執勤的時候穿著制服並且以照相錄音錄影的方式來修正保全相關的事證那現在傳出說2月14號我們的執法人員並沒有密錄器然後船上也沒有攝影設備你什麼時候知道這個事情的"},{"start":709.998,"end":721.158,"text":"這件事情是昨天我有了解到有這樣的狀況那最主要的是你到昨天才知道嗎我們來講那個兩件事第一個就是說他本身帶的這個攝影的"},{"start":732.788,"end":744.338,"text":"議員長,因為這件事件是一個國安事件本席再次重申立場本席絕對支持我們的執法人員依法行政依法行政的其中一個部分就是我們有所謂的"},{"start":745.438,"end":774.537,"text":"海巡執法作業規範對在第九條裡面清楚明白寫著要以照相錄音錄影或修正方式保全事證或者是說遇到反抗或攻擊的時候全程錄影照相存證依規定通報反映好那請教二月十四號下午一點多發生的事情什麼時候您接獲到海委會跟您做一個通盤的報告海委會通盤的報告我們陸陸續續都有討論所以第一時間第一開始的時候什麼時候跟您回報的"},{"start":775.287,"end":779.343,"text":"第一個就是事情發生的第二天我就知道事情。第二天2月15號"},{"start":780.626,"end":809.44,"text":"那什麼時候您知道您有沒有好奇有沒有詢問是說那過程因為國人大家都在看啊照理講你有秘錄器啊2019年的時候海委會的主委就已經在立法院答詢是說我們的海巡弟兄在任何的這種執行的時候都有掛秘錄器你有沒有詢問秘錄器相關或者說當天發生的一個事實我2月15號的時候沒有問他因為我不太清楚這個相關的規定您不太清楚相關規定那到什麼時候您才清楚在"},{"start":810.66,"end":827.438,"text":"大家在討論說這個到底當時整個的這個在做好這個抵制這個船入境的這個情況的時候那大家在講到收證的時候我才曉得說他們沒有收證"},{"start":828.849,"end":847.74,"text":"這個原因最主要的是因為當時的時間很短暫那他們沒有帶隨身的這個相關的密錄器而且呢他們也沒有因為時間很短就只有不到1分鐘的反應的時間所以他們來不及錄影"},{"start":848.3,"end":877.055,"text":"這是我所得到的訊息你所得到的訊息但是現在我們今天早上也有徐巧興委員這邊拿到相關的資料是其實這過程裡面有3、40分鐘而不是如同現在海巡署這邊講的一個記者會說只有5分鐘的時間沒關係這個會再做查證但是院長我再請當然留待偵查所以說我今天也講說徐巧興委員他拿到的資料徐巧興委員他拿到的是爆料者吹哨者的一個資料"},{"start":878.115,"end":879.657,"text":"國務委員馬上就想請問海巡署一年預算有多少錢?"},{"start":893.68,"end":899.906,"text":"海巡署一年的預算250億扣掉人事費用130億還有120億我們120億的一個預算裡面過去民進黨執政了8年的時間想到連給一個執行人員一個密錄器都沒有辦法嗎?"},{"start":911.856,"end":924.523,"text":"兩百五十億裡面只佔了你說用第二預備金只有兩千多萬照理講早就應該給每一個執行人員不是嗎?如果說每一個執行人員都有密錄器的話今天拿出密錄器的資料就不用各說各話就不用猜"}]}},{"id":"149129","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149129","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb62b3a03a85804d361b347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a657cb904821a75d585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:59:04 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11:14:34","影片長度":"00:15:30","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":930,"end_time":"2024-02-23T11:14:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T10:59:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":518,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時59分）有請陳院長。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，恭喜你當選。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝院長。院長，今天是2月23日，院長終於可以到立法院來做食安的專案報告了。其實如果在2月19日朝野協商的時候，民眾黨的黨團總召願意簽下那個朝野協商，老實說院長就可以提早3天，2月20日開議當天你就可以來做食安報告了，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：確實，還好這3天我們都是持續地在把關食安。"],["李委員坤城：是啊，本來是說20日開議當天你就可以來做食安報告了，但是有人不簽這個朝野協商。所以說你看嘛，在這之後還出現有在野黨希望加開院會，或者是說在開議當天還有在野黨拿著麥克風違規在這邊吵鬧。如果當天就讓你來做這個食安的專案報告，後續就不會有那些鬧劇了啦！"],["陳院長建仁：民眾也更放心。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！因為民眾希望能夠做食安報告，所以當然是希望你在20日開議當天就來嘛！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，雖然晚了3天，民眾還是想知道一下，在馬英九執政的時候和蔡英文執政的時候，食安到底有什麼不一樣。剛剛聽了院長的報告，我先針對瘦肉精的部分來請教一下院長：在馬英九執政的時期，我查到的資料是違規使用瘦肉精的部分有抓到3個豬農使用，這是我查到的資料，或許更多也不一定。但是在蔡英文執政的時期有沒有查出本地豬農使用瘦肉精的資料，尤其是台糖？我剛剛看到上一位質詢的陳委員的資料，他的資料是2011年到2015年，我們民進黨是2016年才執政耶！所以他用的資料是馬英九執政時期的資料啊！那我請教一下，在蔡英文執政這8年期間有沒有本地豬農或是這次的苦主台糖有違規使用瘦肉精？"],["陳院長建仁：台糖沒有使用瘦肉精，這是很確定的一件事情，豬農使用的狀況我請部長來補充說明。"],["李委員坤城：好，請你來說明一下。"],["陳代理部長駿季：第一個部分是近10年來在103、104有2件，106有2件，都是在豬場端就即時攔阻下來；上一個10年就滿多的，大概有一千多件，包括……"],["李委員坤城：你現在是講執政前和執政後嘛？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對……"],["李委員坤城：你講的那個10年前是馬英九執政的時期？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，特別是在97年那一年大概有八百多件，後來又降了大概一百多件左右。事實上整個國內的豬場禁用瘦肉精是一個政策，這個政策是在那個情況之下，我們一直希望國內豬隻的產業是不用瘦肉精的，所以後來就開始逐漸下降，從106年以後就沒有檢出。"],["李委員坤城：沒有檢出了嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["李委員坤城：那就是在我們……因為2016年是蔡英文執政嘛！","當然，沒有檢出跟有沒有使用，我認為是兩件事情，但是就我們來講，你們已經跟豬農尤其是台糖說不能使用瘦肉精，這是很重要的事情。等一下我會問到台糖的事情，現在先給院長看一個數字：921比1。院長，你知道這是什麼數字嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：921是885件全國豬肉的樣品加上台糖自己同批次的肉品檢驗，結果出來都是沒有檢驗到瘦肉精。"],["李委員坤城：沒有含瘦肉精！"],["陳院長建仁：對，都沒有檢出。"],["李委員坤城：沒有含西布特羅！"],["陳院長建仁：當然沒有！"],["李委員坤城：所以你看嘛！包含衛福部、農業部、台糖自行檢驗，到目前為止，921件都沒有問題，只有一件有問題，那一件就是臺中市政府檢查出來的嘛！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以我們今天的焦點就在於，這一件「天選之肉」、這一包肉到底是怎麼出來的？等一下我們要問的就是，因為我剛剛有聽到院長在講，行政院研判這是屬於單一檢體問題，而非系統性事件，就這個單一檢體的問題，能不能請院長或是部長再說明清楚，單一檢體到底出現了什麼問題？"],["陳院長建仁：單一檢體是他們到市場去採購以後拿回來就檢驗，檢驗結果根據臺中市的講法是有22次的檢驗，因為它檢驗不穩定……"],["李委員坤城：就檢驗那一塊肉嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對，就檢驗那一塊肉，對、對、對。"],["李委員坤城：所以臺中市政府在檢驗那一塊肉之外，有沒有檢查同批次其他的肉？有沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["李委員坤城：沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：就我所知，沒有。"],["李委員坤城：所以當時它通知衛福部有檢查出西布特羅，你們沒有建議他們同批次的豬肉也去做檢查？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，他當初到市場去採樣，同時有找出另外一個，但它不是同一批，而且那是豬小排肉，那一個沒有檢出。所以他在那個福利站找了2包，一包就是這一個，那另外一包是一個小排，那個沒有檢出。"],["李委員坤城：沒有……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我可以稍微比較清楚地補充一下，就是在2月2號臺中市政府發布新聞稿以後，我們當天下午就成立了一個專案小組，馬上去找同一批的肉品，因為它有溯源碼。我們找同一批的肉品，在2月3號總共找到了9包，那9包裡面我們分送了，由畜產會去檢驗4包，然後衛福部檢驗2包，另外我們用SGS去檢驗，所以在2月4號，我們初步認定整個同一批、同品項的豬肉，並沒有所謂西布特羅的殘留污染。因為已經下架了，所以我們陸陸續續從下架的去找同樣的批號，後續再持續地檢驗也都沒有。"],["李委員坤城：所以當初臺中市政府說有驗出西布特羅的時候，有沒有跟他講說再驗一下其他同批次的肉，比較沒有問題的時候再公布？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你講的對啦！其實在一般的檢驗過程當中，如果我們發現有哪一個肉品，尤其它的含量很低很低嘛！這個時候是應該要趕快通知相關的單位去找到同批次的檢體，再來重複檢驗，才能夠更加的確認。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有跟臺中市政府建議？"],["陳院長建仁：因為他們通知到我們的時候，實際上是有一段時間。因為他自己還糾纏在……"],["李委員坤城：那一塊肉？"],["陳院長建仁：還在同一塊肉啦！"],["李委員坤城：好，那我再請教一下，現在有查出來了，就是有4家業者有進口西布特羅，有12家衛生局跟12家的民間檢驗機構，那請問一下，這12家的衛生局是不是含臺中市政府？"],["陳院長建仁：當然、當然。"],["李委員坤城：含臺中市政府。那現在就是要查出來，你們除了做行政調查之外，有沒有做司法的調查？"],["陳院長建仁：我們是沒有進入司法的調查。"],["李委員坤城：這應該要進入司法調查吧？"],["陳院長建仁：最主要的情況是，第一個，這一個檢驗出來的濃度是相對的低，做司法調查的時候，我們通常在食品事件上就擔心所謂的千面人事件嘛！如果是千面人事件，在任何的食品當中檢驗出來不會有那麼低的濃度，那麼低的濃度有另外一種，除了剛才講到的污染可能性之外，還有一種是檢驗本身的不準度，所以這就是為什麼衛福部也好，農業部也好，我們的專家學者是從檢體的檢驗程序上來調查。"],["李委員坤城：本席建議行政調查歸行政調查，但是檢調、司法的調查，我認為要同步來進行。因為我認為到最後，不要讓這個案子成為懸案。我現在就是說……"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得……"],["李委員坤城：我自己歸納，現在包含行政部門或是民間所提出來的，梅花肉瘦肉精污染事件可能有2個可能性，第一個，實驗室的污染；第二個，就是你剛才提到的千面人的事件。那實驗室的污染，我舉民眾黨的主席柯文哲所講的，他說如果整批肉都測不出瘦肉精，只有臺中市政府檢驗出有問題的豬肉，那就有可能是實驗室的污染。對於柯文哲主席的說法，你們的看法怎麼樣？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這只是其中之一的可能性，因為溯源的情形不是很容易，實際上採取檢體到公布已經經過很長的一段時間，而且這一個實驗室本身並不像P3實驗室有錄影……"],["李委員坤城：這個有沒有可能性？"],["陳院長建仁：當然是有這種可能性。"],["李委員坤城：那有沒有要去調查？"],["陳院長建仁：這個調查就需要學者專家來調查，但是我剛才要跟委員強調的就是，因為時隔相當長的時間，而這個實驗室不像病毒的P3實驗室都有攝影啊！都有很多的紀錄嘛！在這樣檢驗的實驗室裡面，如果沒有這樣的紀錄的話，那是不容易查出……"],["李委員坤城：那是後續SOP的問題啦！"],["陳院長建仁：是、是、是。"],["李委員坤城：這是後續的問題。我舉例柯文哲說有可能實驗室污染，那第二個可能性就是你剛才也有提到的千面人，這不是只有你提到，嘉義縣養豬協會理事長林志達說這有可能是一個千面人事件，那有沒有朝這方面去查的可能性？"],["陳院長建仁：當時我們也瞭解了這一個實驗室去市場採購的時候，那個錄影帶有留下來，是沒有發現有任何異常的情況，但是……"],["李委員坤城：現在我認為行政調查，當然你們昨天也開了會，衛福部、農業部接下來開了會，但是司法調查部分，我覺得還是要進行。部長有話要說？"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明，臺中地檢署有進行了解中。"],["李委員坤城：哪一部分？"],["蔡部長清祥：可能涉及刑責的部分。"],["李委員坤城：涉及刑責的部分？"],["蔡部長清祥：對。"],["李委員坤城：是哪一個範疇啊？涉及刑責的部分是指……"],["蔡部長清祥：因為有民眾檢舉，我們會根據外界的一些看法來進一步瞭解。"],["李委員坤城：大家都認為這個案子很重要，因為在過年前發生的嘛！我也不希望用到最後，後來就是沒有什麼事情了，變成一個懸案，我認為行政、司法都要去調查，因為這件事情，我問一下農業部長，豬肉有沒有受到影響？價格有沒有受到影響？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想豬肉如果從2月2日到過年前這段時間，它的平均豬肉單價是九十塊八，它比去年農曆同樣時段還高，所以看起來，我想我們國人對於我們國產豬肉的信心還是在的，沒有因為這樣的事件而受到一些衝擊。"],["李委員坤城：大家對台糖還是有信心就對了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，對台糖還是有信心。"],["李委員坤城：對台糖有信心？好。但是對台糖有信心，台糖是不是苦主啊？台糖是苦主！請問一下，台糖在這次瘦肉精西布特羅事件當中，它的損失有多少？直接的損失跟間接的損失有多少？來，王部長。"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，台糖初步有統計，直接的損失是一千七百多萬，間接的損失是三千多萬，所以它總共的損失大概是5,200萬。"],["李委員坤城：就是到目前為止，直接的損失就是因為下架？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["李委員坤城：下架，然後也不能賣……"],["王部長美花：還有回收，還有人家退貨的，還有這些檢驗的費用，還有相關的人力支出等等，這個部分大概是1,700萬。"],["李委員坤城：你說間接損失呢？三千多萬……"],["王部長美花：間接損失三千多萬，它初步的評估總共大概會損失5,200萬。"],["李委員坤城：好，我請教一下，因為如果連盧秀燕都說真相大白、這是個案，那麼請問一下，台糖這一批豬肉，你們預防性下架的這些豬肉大概沒辦法出了吧？沒辦法再重新上架了吧？"],["王部長美花：預防性下架的豬肉假設能夠快速釐清，並且都還在相關的有效期間，是不是可以再申請讓它可以上架，這樣的話，看能不能減少損失。不過這段期間減少的販售已經是非常多了。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以我說台糖是苦主嘛！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["李委員坤城：就是你講的直接影響跟間接影響了多少？五千多萬？"],["王部長美花：5,200萬。"],["李委員坤城：5,200萬，請問一下，那台糖去向誰求償？如果真的像盧秀燕講的真相大白了、這是個案，行政部門查到目前為止，921比1嘛！可見是個案的問題，我就問台糖那些肉品何時才可以回到市場？而台糖要去跟誰求償？"],["王部長美花：是，所以我想台糖在這個地方確實受到非常多的委屈，它也希望能夠儘速釐清。第二個，讓台糖的聲譽能夠回復，台糖的肉可以再去上架，這個是台糖非常需要的補償。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！台糖就是被打了也不敢吭聲嘛！對不對？明明盧秀燕都講了這是個案、真相大白了，它還是沒有辦法，比如損失了五千多萬，然後肉也不能重新再上架，大家對於台糖雖然有信心，但是買的時候還是會稍微疑慮了一下，我認為台糖該求償的時候還是該求償啊！","最後30秒請教一下院長，如果重來一次，你們會給地方政府什麼樣的建議？SOP會調整嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝。我想很重要的就是臺中市政府的檢驗室面對很低劑量的檢出時，它應該要把它的SOP做一個很好的修正，舉一個例子，比如應該要趕快去找同一批的豬肉來檢查……"],["李委員坤城：如果地方政府SOP沒辦法建立，你們會中央指導……"],["陳院長建仁：我們中央就會跟地方一起……"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝院長、謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝李委員坤城。","下面請登記第3號洪委員孟楷質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":277,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1130401_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8.35034375,"end":9.970343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16.39971875,"end":19.875968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20.297843750000002,"end":20.770343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20.972843750000003,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20.98971875,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21.02346875,"end":21.563468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21.563468750000002,"end":21.816593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21.816593750000003,"end":21.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":22.086593750000002,"end":22.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22.10346875,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25.37721875,"end":29.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":29.69721875,"end":31.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":32.41409375,"end":33.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":34.32096875,"end":36.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":36.63284375,"end":38.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":38.978468750000005,"end":40.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":40.32846875,"end":40.345343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":40.362218750000004,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":42.572843750000004,"end":44.344718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":44.344718750000006,"end":44.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":44.59784375,"end":46.032218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":46.032218750000006,"end":46.251593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":46.28534375,"end":46.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":46.38659375,"end":51.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":51.70221875,"end":51.752843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":51.76971875,"end":51.854093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":51.854093750000004,"end":51.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":51.97221875,"end":58.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":58.62096875,"end":59.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":59.970968750000004,"end":64.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":64.12221875,"end":65.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":66.34971875000001,"end":73.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":73.58909375,"end":78.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":78.22971875,"end":79.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":79.76534375,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":86.02596875,"end":86.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":86.51534375,"end":90.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":90.17721875000001,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":91.08846875,"end":95.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":95.69534375,"end":101.73659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":102.22596875,"end":107.40659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":108.11534375000001,"end":114.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":114.44346875000001,"end":115.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":115.77659375,"end":117.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":117.63284375,"end":119.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":119.69159375000001,"end":120.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":121.21034375,"end":122.18909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":122.44221875000001,"end":123.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":123.89346875000001,"end":126.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":126.57659375000001,"end":129.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":129.44534375,"end":131.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":131.68971875,"end":133.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":134.05221875,"end":135.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":136.04346875000002,"end":136.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":137.35971875,"end":140.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":140.65034375000002,"end":141.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":142.40534375000001,"end":143.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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就是說現在我認為行政調查當然你們昨天也開了會這衛福部農業部接下來開了會但是司法調查這部分我覺得還是要進行部長有話要說"},{"start":663.991,"end":674.03,"text":"跟委員說明台中地檢署有進行了解中哪一部分可能涉及刑責的部分涉及刑責的部分"},{"start":675.182,"end":701.959,"text":"這是哪一個範疇?因為有民眾檢舉,那我們會根據外界的一些看法來做一個進一步的了解。因為大家都認為說這個案子很重要,因為過年前發生了嘛,那我也不希望說用到最後後來就是沒什麼事情了,那變成一個懸案。那我認為行政司法都要去調查。那因為這件事情,我問一下董事長,豬肉有沒有受到影響?"},{"start":703.099,"end":724.451,"text":"價格有沒有受到影響?我想豬肉如果說我們從過年2月2號到過年前這段時間齁它的平均的豬肉的單價是90塊8它比去年農曆同樣的時段的時候是還比較高所以看起來我想我們國人對於我們國產豬肉的信心還是在的不會沒有因為這樣的一個事件而受到一些衝擊"},{"start":725.151,"end":743.337,"text":"大家對台堂還是有信心就對了對台堂還是有信心對台堂有信心好但是對台堂有信心呢台堂是苦主啊台堂是苦主請問一下台堂在這次的這個瘦肉精事件希伯特勒事件當中他的損失有多少直接的損失跟間接的損失有多少來王部長"},{"start":748.623,"end":764.251,"text":"剛剛委員報告齁那臺黨初步有那個統計一下那直接的損失是1700多萬那間接的損失是這個3000多萬所以他總共的這樣的損失大概是5200萬"},{"start":765.652,"end":787.437,"text":"就是到目前為止,時間損失就是因為下架,下架然後也不能買。還有回收,還有人家退貨的,還有去花這些檢驗的費用,還有相關的人力的支出等等。這個部分大概是1700萬。你說間接損失呢?間接損失3000多萬,是。它總共的初步的評估大概會損失5200萬。"},{"start":789.437,"end":802.953,"text":"好那我請教一下因為如果連盧秀燕她都說真相大白這是個案那請問一下臺堂這些JP你們預防性下降這些豬肉大概沒辦法出了吧"},{"start":803.985,"end":805.505,"text":"五千兩百萬是五千兩百萬請問一下"},{"start":833.032,"end":843.502,"text":"那台堂去向誰求償啊?如果真的像盧秀恩講的啊,真相大白啦,這是個案啊,那我們這個行政部門查到目前為止921比1嘛。"},{"start":845.37,"end":872.962,"text":"那可見是個案的問題那我就問說好那台糖那些肉品何時才可以在市場然後台糖要去跟誰求償阿是所以我想台糖在這個地方是確實受到非常多的一個委屈啦那他也希望能夠盡速釐清那第二個讓台糖的盛運能夠恢復台糖的肉可以再去上架這個是台糖非常需要的對阿所以台糖就是被打了也不敢吭聲嘛"},{"start":875.578,"end":892.466,"text":"明明盧修緣都講了這是個案真相大白了那他還是沒有辦法比如說損失了5000多萬然後肉也不能再重新再上架然後大家對於台糖雖然有信心但是買的時候還是稍微疑慮了一下我認為台糖該求償的時候還是在求償"},{"start":893.106,"end":921.941,"text":"好那最後30秒請教一下院長如果重來一次會給地方政府隨便人建議SOP會做調整嗎好謝謝我想很重要的就是說這一個臺中市政府的檢驗室他面對這個很低劑量的這個檢出的時候呢他應該要把他的SOP做一個很好的修正舉一個例子比如說應該要趕快去找同一批的豬肉來檢查如果地方政府SOP沒辦法建立那我們中央"},{"start":927.359,"end":927.6,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"149128","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149128","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb6f853ab08c9bedd1fb347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6a3e4a50336754e9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"10:42:55 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10:58:32","影片長度":"00:15:37","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-23","duration":937,"end_time":"2024-02-23T10:58:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-23T10:42:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（10時42分）有請院長。院長，謝謝您剛剛的食安專題報告，我想請問院長，您對於落實源頭管理、確保國人食安，您給自己打幾分？"],["主席：請行政院陳院長答復。"],["陳院長建仁：從2016年之前跟2016年以後，我們來做一個比較，我剛才講過，有關於系統性的食安問題已經大幅地減少，大部分都是個案的問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以您給自己的……"],["陳院長建仁：所以我覺得食安問題之所以會這樣好，不是只有中央政府的努力，包括了地方政府、學界、民間業界……"],["陳委員昭姿：所以你整體的……"],["陳院長建仁：所以我整體來看、整體來看，相對於亞洲附近的國家，我覺得臺灣的食安是不錯的。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝院長！院長，我下面想請教你一個邏輯問題，針對開放美國萊豬進口，以下說法何者正確──當政府沒有檢出萊克多巴胺的時候，是不是就等於飼養的時候沒有使用萊克多巴胺？或者是沒有檢出萊克多巴胺，並無法得出飼養時沒有使用萊克多巴胺的結論？請院長作答，謝謝！"],["陳院長建仁：好，如果政府開放美豬進口，因為我們沒有開放萊豬進口……"],["陳委員昭姿：在沒有檢出的情況下……"],["陳院長建仁：但是在我們沒有檢出的時候，這個時候我們可以說，進口的豬肉實際上是不含有萊克多巴胺，但是這個是美豬，所以是美國飼養的時候，他有沒有使用萊克多巴胺，因為你講的是……"],["陳委員昭姿：所以院長的答案是上面，還是下面？是未檢出就等於沒有使用呢？還是不能有這樣的結論？"],["陳院長建仁：在這裡的話，未檢出我們只能夠講沒有檢出。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有檢出，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：就是沒有檢出。"],["陳院長建仁：是嘛！是沒有檢出。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。院長，沒有檢出不代表沒有使用才是正確的。"],["陳院長建仁：但是委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：陳部長……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我們現在萊克多巴胺的檢驗是用HPLC……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，我知道，敏感度……"],["陳院長建仁：HPLC是一個相當精準的檢驗方法。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝院長。陳吉仲前部長說，萊克多巴胺的半衰期短，代謝非常快，24小時內會代謝掉八成。根據我的精算大概只剩2%，農民只要在兩天前停藥，事實上，殘留量會大幅衰減，這個表示未檢出不代表未使用，你同意嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：我同意，但是我要講的是，您是藥學的專家，所以我不敢跟你班門弄斧……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：但是我們……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個方向、原則我瞭解。"],["陳院長建仁：現在各國都是用進口豬肉檢驗，這也是唯一的標準，也是國際標準。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝院長。去年10月食藥署副署長說，這幾年都沒有萊豬進口。院長，如果我們剛剛有這樣的小共識──沒有檢出未必代表沒有使用，那麼政府沒有檢出，食藥署副署長可不可以說都沒有萊豬進口？您同意這樣的說法嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：實際上各國進口的標準，都是按照進口豬肉檢出有沒有符合標準。當然您講的是對的，也許他有用……"],["陳委員昭姿：對，院長……"],["陳院長建仁：但是進口的貨品……"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：國際標準就是要針對進口豬肉檢驗。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，其實我強調的是，希望官員能夠把話講清楚。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有檢出就是沒有檢出，你不能把沒有檢出跟沒有萊豬進口劃等號，這個說法您同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：可以這樣講，科學上……"],["陳委員昭姿：就是要講清楚，不要有話術。"],["陳院長建仁：但是實際上國際標準不是這樣，是按照進口豬肉檢驗。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：檢驗沒有萊克多巴胺就准進口，這是國際標準。"],["陳委員昭姿：我要請教院長，在政府的公務出國報告資訊網的網站上，我查到八件公務員到美國進行肉品查核的報告，是有關美牛的。我們知道自從開放進口後政府要定期查核，但是2021年當政府要開放美豬來臺時，明明承諾要到美國查廠，而且通過的業者才能夠輸到臺灣，可是我看了公務出國報告資訊網，為什麼到目前為止一件美豬查廠案的報告都沒有？目前掛零。院長，美豬查廠報告是機密嗎？還是有什麼不可告人之處呢？掛零。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，剛才衛福部長說有查廠，但是為什麼掛零我請他說明。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，掛零。"],["薛部長瑞元：剛剛委員講的有一個地方不太正確，就是……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我就請你說為什麼美豬查廠是掛零？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["陳委員昭姿：美牛查廠有八件，美豬查廠已經2、3年，為什麼是掛零？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們有去查了，也許……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，這樣子……"],["薛部長瑞元：我會把資料給你。"],["陳委員昭姿：這件事部長可不可以會後……"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：我相信你們有報告。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我們請衛福部把資料給您。"],["陳委員昭姿：你是不是會後馬上請相關機關上傳？國人有權利瞭解這個檢查報告的內容，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：就是這樣子，麻煩……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，查廠很重要……"],["陳委員昭姿：報告很重要。"],["陳院長建仁：但是進口的每批豬肉都要檢查更重要。"],["陳委員昭姿：報告是公定文書，我們瞭解。好，院長，關於美國豬肉進口，食藥署前後不同調，2014年姜副署長說，實地查核的範圍包括牧場、屠宰場及官方的衛生安全管制機制，透過實地查廠，食藥署還可以直接指定只有合格牧場生產的肉品才准進來。但是去年10月副署長林金富說，所謂的查廠是系統性的查核，是雙方研議出幾家廠商名單，再由我方查核，言下之意並不是逐廠查核。2021年蘇貞昌前院長為了推動開放美豬進口，在立法院承諾會赴美查廠，通過的才可以進口，也就是逐廠查驗的精神。請問院長，對於食藥署前後不同調，您的看法如何？"],["陳院長建仁：國際標準在這9年間確實有一些改變也說不定，但是最重要的我還是再強調，目前有一段時間……"],["陳委員昭姿：院長說的改變是說……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我跟你講一下，2023年面臨COVID-19，我們查廠實際上也有一些困難，我承認。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，我們瞭解。對於到底要實地逐廠查核還是所謂的系統性抽樣查核，您的想法呢？"],["陳院長建仁：應該是系統性查核，因為不可能逐廠查核，逐廠查核美國……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個是太不負責任的說法，因為這個在打臉姜郁美，也打臉蘇貞昌前院長在立法院的承諾。"],["陳院長建仁：所以我說這些規定可能在幾年內都有些改變。"],["陳委員昭姿：食藥署說10年未檢出瘦肉精，103年到112年衛生單位於抽驗豬肉檢驗乙型受體素，也就是瘦肉精，總共1萬9,300件，結果均未檢出，這是他們2月發的新聞稿。院長，您相信10年未檢出這個說法嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我當然相信，而且……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，你相信這個說法，院長，我可能要給你一些資料，您可能被騙了。我們先來看看2015年、2018年，這是近10年內……"],["陳院長建仁：剛才講的是進口。"],["陳委員昭姿：農委會都曾在前端飼養查獲違法使用瘦肉精而且開罰的至少有兩案，這是第一個。"],["陳院長建仁：是，那是國內養豬場出售前的檢驗。"],["陳委員昭姿：分別有查出它的量、它的內容，包括沙丁胺醇跟萊克多巴胺都是禁用的兩個成分，這是農委會前端的部分。好，你剛剛說你相信食藥署10年無查出的這個說法……"],["陳院長建仁：那是進口豬肉。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，下一張，事實上瘦肉精近5年都有違法使用。院長，根據食藥署自己的國際期刊Journal of FDA所刊登的同仁投書的報告，2011年到2015年抽驗1,487份畜產品檢測瘦肉精，有34件不合格，其中有24件為國內產品，這篇文章是用英文寫的，這是第一個。另外，我要告訴院長，監察院在2011年的時候，因為防檢局去檢測到非常高比率的違法使用瘦肉精，所以糾正了農委會「抽驗頻度過低，顯未善盡把關職責」。院長，剛剛……"],["陳院長建仁：這是國內的部分，委員，我想我們先澄清一下，在國外進口的部分，我們檢驗了1萬9,000多件，都正常……"],["陳委員昭姿：我想都是國人在……"],["陳院長建仁：國內產品的部分，我們有去檢查，那檢查的時候都是在銷售端之前檢查出來有不合格。"],["陳委員昭姿：現在我們再來討論銷售端跟後市場的問題。食藥署說10年來未檢出，你覺得這個說法正確嗎？該這樣講嗎？我已經告訴你農業部……"],["陳院長建仁：我要看一下食藥署的資料。"],["陳委員昭姿：食藥署的研究報告，自己刊登在國際期刊，也都有……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，它這個資料是commercial livestock products，就是所有的商業畜產品。"],["陳委員昭姿：畜產品裡面有牛也有其他的肉類。"],["陳院長建仁：我想看一下到底是豬肉或者牛肉。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。院長，我想這件事太離譜了，就是有這些資料還說10年未檢出，這是一個非常粗糙的說法。院長，這是假訊息呀！"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才講過那是豬肉進口。"],["陳委員昭姿：這是官方的假訊息呀！10年未檢出。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有假訊息。"],["陳委員昭姿：我認為署長、部長還是誰要負責呢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員，我可不可以說明一下？因為委員剛才說是農業部有關的訊息，那我們所掌握的就是近10年來總共有4件，這4件都是即時攔抯，在生產端的時候就攔抯了，所以沒有進到後市場。"],["陳委員昭姿：後市場沒有檢出，後市場跟前市場現在是脫鉤管理的。我就把食藥署的期刊……自己來看看。"],["陳院長建仁：本來就該脫鉤管理。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，今天回到食安事件最近的主角──天選之肉，院長，您看到的這個追溯號碼，就是這次疑似西布特羅肉片的瘦肉精使用事件，這是有溯源資料的，我想知道衛福部到現在有沒有掌握這一批產品的總量、賣出的數量跟回收的數量，有沒有這個數字？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個目前都已經有蒐集下來，都下架了。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我們還沒有看到這個報告數字。"],["薛部長瑞元：已經檢驗的都沒有問題，都沒有含西布特羅。"],["陳委員昭姿：我要談的是，如果你有產品的總量數字非常好，趕快讓國人知道，如果你沒有數字，那就是有點……"],["薛部長瑞元：同一批號九十幾件大概都沒有問題，只有這一件。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那我要告訴……"],["陳院長建仁：我們再提供給委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：我要告訴部長、院長，即便你有產品總量，我認為那也是不正確的，為什麼呢？一隻豬屠宰之後，只賣出肉品嗎？人民只會吃到肉品嗎？內臟賣不賣？肝臟賣不賣？你追溯的東西有幾千件是限制肉品？為什麼我會這樣說呢？院長，請你先看這一張投影片的兩張照片，左邊是台糖的梅花肉片，右邊是台糖的豬肝片，他們都宣稱這一盒經得起考驗，請問院長，你有看出這兩張照片有什麼不同嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：一個是豬肝，一個是豬肉。"],["陳委員昭姿：我來告訴院長答案，因為我圈起來了。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個肉片的部分它有溯源標章，有個QR code可以去掃，有提供產銷履歷，很好。但是請看豬肝的部分空空的，豬肝沒有溯源徽章，沒有產銷履歷，沒有辦法溯源。院長，豬肝上什麼都沒有辦法溯源，所以這次的產品總量我覺得有問題，因為你沒有辦法溯源。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我……"],["陳委員昭姿：那國人是吃內臟的，你同意喔？國人是吃內臟的。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你是藥學的專家，我剛才講過，一群豬用同樣的飼料去餵養，然後如果有瘦肉精在裡面……"],["陳委員昭姿：當然到處都有。"],["陳院長建仁：不只是跑到肉，而且會跑到肝。"],["陳委員昭姿：對。"],["陳院長建仁：現在我們所有的豬肉檢驗出來，通通沒有檢出，那請問如果肉沒有，豬肝裡面、肝裡面會有嗎？我想我們學科學的人都很清楚。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，一隻豬假設吃下了瘦肉精，它只會停留在肉片嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當然不會，所以……"],["陳委員昭姿：肝臟的濃度含量……"],["陳院長建仁：但是所有的肉片，所有的肉片都沒有喔！"],["陳委員昭姿：哪一個地方含量比較高喔？假設要……"],["陳院長建仁：所有的肉片……"],["陳委員昭姿：採檢時間。反正院長，豬肝沒有辦法溯源、內臟沒有辦法溯源，這是個事實吧？"],["陳院長建仁：我們對豬肝的溯源部分，我請部長說明。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我這邊說明一下，我們國內豬隻的溯源系統，第一個是採自願性的……"],["陳委員昭姿：這就是問題。"],["陳代理部長駿季：台糖的豬隻是有溯源的。"],["陳委員昭姿：OK，我瞭解，這是自願性，它現在還不是強制性的，當然將來可以考慮。但是我要說現在是有偏差的，肉片有溯源機制，但內臟沒有。"],["陳院長建仁：未來可以考慮。"],["陳委員昭姿：這兩張等一下再交給院長去處理。"],["陳院長建仁：現在臺中市查出來的是肉片，不是內臟。"],["陳委員昭姿：我的質詢時間。內臟已經成食安漏洞了，肉片有，豬肝沒有溯源的徽章。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：內臟成為食安漏洞，溯源要馬上做。院長，您看一下這個表格，再看後面的數字，我們國家允許的殘留含量，你看肝臟、腎臟跟肌肉是不一樣的，肝臟是允許有四倍高。你我的醫學背景都瞭解，瘦肉精在豬……"],["陳院長建仁：對，委員的建議很好，這個……"],["陳委員昭姿：內臟是比較高的，如果今天換成……"],["陳院長建仁：未來內臟也要做抽檢……"],["陳委員昭姿：那還是水溶性的萊克多巴胺。"],["陳院長建仁：對，也要做檢查。"],["陳委員昭姿：如果今天不幸換成西布特羅……這個數字不會只有四倍耶！院長。這是漏洞耶！食安的漏洞。"],["陳院長建仁：但是這次西布特羅檢驗出來很低。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們要做很多預防。"],["陳院長建仁：對，是。這……"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，可不可以有個時程？因為本席認為內臟目前是食安的漏洞，那可不可能有一個時程去研議這件事情，怎麼樣把它納入管理？"],["陳院長建仁：我們可以來考慮畜產品的內臟也做相關的檢驗。對啦！這一定、一定，你的建議是好的啦！很好。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝院長，我把這兩件肉品的差異交給院長。"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：請院長帶回去，再看怎麼來幫助國人能夠……謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員昭姿的質詢。","本席善意提醒一下衛福部薛部長，你今天不是藐視國會，是你講話國會聽不見，你要不要喝一口熱茶，帶個熱茶上台好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：他真的是喉嚨痛。"],["主席：對，我說你今天備詢的話，麻煩帶個熱茶沒關係的，我們都能理解，好不好？立法院很有人情味的。","接下來我們請第2位質詢委員李委員坤城，時間15分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":277,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1130401_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":0.45284375,"end":1.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8953437500000003,"end":5.076593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5.498468750000001,"end":5.785343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.66284375,"end":8.654093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9.059093750000002,"end":11.556593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.012218750000002,"end":17.294093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.69909375,"end":18.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.96909375,"end":18.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.74534375,"end":30.945968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.254093750000003,"end":32.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.40159375,"end":48.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.29471875,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":41.03721875,"end":41.509718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":48.580343750000004,"end":54.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":54.689093750000005,"end":58.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":59.633468750000006,"end":62.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":63.109718750000006,"end":67.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":67.76721875,"end":68.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":68.98221875,"end":70.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":71.09159375,"end":76.69409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.55909375,"end":78.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.36034375,"end":82.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":82.63409375,"end":84.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.25409375000001,"end":93.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.94034375000001,"end":94.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.09221875,"end":100.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.31471875000001,"end":102.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":101.34846875000001,"end":104.08221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":106.15784375000001,"end":110.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.57909375000001,"end":115.62471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":114.79784375000001,"end":117.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.02971875,"end":118.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":117.68346875,"end":121.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.49721875,"end":132.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":122.94846875,"end":123.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":129.12471875,"end":132.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":132.44909375,"end":134.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":134.28846875000002,"end":143.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":143.80596875,"end":149.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":150.23534375,"end":150.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":151.43346875,"end":155.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.21346875,"end":168.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":159.95534375,"end":160.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":162.25034375,"end":164.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":168.47721875000002,"end":170.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":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院長我下面想請教您一個邏輯問題。針對開放美國萊豬進口以下說法何者正確?"},{"start":59.653,"end":60.294,"text":"好,如果政府開放"},{"start":79.434,"end":80.915,"text":"所以院長的答案是上面還是下面?"},{"start":106.249,"end":130.662,"text":"是未檢出就等於沒有使用呢?還是不能有這樣的結論?在這裡的話,未檢出我們只能夠講說說沒有檢出。沒有檢出對不對?就是沒有檢出。好,院長沒有檢出不代表沒有使用才是正確的。但是委員,我們現在用萊克多巴胺的檢驗是用HPOC。HPOC是一個相當精準的檢驗的方法。"},{"start":132.843,"end":154.722,"text":"陳吉仲前部長說萊克多巴胺它的半衰期短代謝非常快24小時內會代謝掉八成根據我的精算大概只剩百分之二那農民只要在兩天前停藥事實上殘留量會大幅的衰減院長這個表示說未減出不代表未使用你同意嗎"},{"start":155.662,"end":183.084,"text":"我同意,但是委員我要講的就是說您是藥學的專家所以我不敢跟你拔門弄斧但是呢但是我們現在各國都是用進口豬肉來做檢驗這也是唯一的標準也是國際標準謝謝院長謝謝院長好去年10月食藥署副署長說這幾年都沒有來豬進口院長如果我們剛剛有這樣的一個小共識沒有檢出未必代表沒有使用的話"},{"start":184.125,"end":186.647,"text":"其實我強調的是希望官員能夠把話講清楚。"},{"start":207.162,"end":227.44,"text":"沒有檢出就是沒有來豬進口做等號這個說法您同意嗎?可以這樣講科學上但是實際上國際標準不是這樣啦是按照進口豬肉來做檢驗那檢驗沒有萊克多巴胺就準進口這是國際標準"},{"start":228.857,"end":249.754,"text":"委員長我要請教在政府的公務出國報告資訊網的網站上我查到了八件公務員到美國進行肉品的這個查核報告是有關美牛的因為我們知道自從開放進口後政府要定期的查核但是但是2021年當政府要開放美豬來台時明明承諾要到美國查場"},{"start":251.223,"end":251.343,"text":"﹚陳昭姿"},{"start":264.281,"end":290.323,"text":"院長到底美豬茶廠報告是機密嗎?還是有什麼不可告人的處呢?沒有,這個我想剛才衛福部部長說是有是茶廠,但是為什麼掛鈴我請他說明。部長,掛鈴?剛剛委員講的有一個地方不太正確啦。院長,部長我就請你說為什麼美豬茶廠是掛鈴?有。美牛茶廠有8件,美豬茶廠已經兩三年為什麼是掛鈴?"},{"start":291.164,"end":316.971,"text":"我們有去查了,那也許...好,那這樣是不是這樣子,這件事部長可不可以會後,就是我相信你們有報告,那你是不是會後馬上請將官機關上傳。我覺得國人有權利去了解這個檢查報告的內容,好嗎?好,委員查場很重要啦,但是進口的每一批豬肉都要檢查更重要。報告是公定文書,我們了解,好。"},{"start":318.646,"end":346.183,"text":"院長關於美國豬肉進口施藥署是前後不同調的2014年江副署長說實地查核的範圍包括牧場、屠宰場及官方的衛生安全管制機制透過實地查場施藥署還可以直接指定只有合格牧場生產肉品才准進來但是去年10月副署長林金富說所謂的查場是系統性的查核是雙方研議出幾家賞賬名單再由我方去查核"},{"start":347.083,"end":367.8,"text":"言下之意說並不是主場查核。請稍後。2021年朱成章院長為了推動開放美豬進口也在立法院承諾會赴美茶廠通過的才可以進口。也就是主場查驗的精神。請問院長您對於食藥署前後不同調您的看法是如何?"},{"start":368.437,"end":388.152,"text":"我想可能在國際的標準上在這9年間確實是有一些改變也說不定但是我們是最重要我還是在強調的是說在目前有一段時間委員我跟你講一下這個2023年面臨到COVID-19我們茶廠實際上也是有一些困難我承認"},{"start":396.618,"end":403.797,"text":"我們了解那院長對於到底要實地主場查核還是所謂的系統性抽樣查核您的想法呢?"},{"start":404.897,"end":429.615,"text":"應該是系統性查核,因為不可能主場查核啦。這個太負責任說法,因為這個在打臉江玉敏,也打臉蘇貞昌院長在立法院的承諾。所以我說這是規定可能在幾年內都有些改變。食藥署說10年未檢出瘦肉精,在下面103年到122年衛生單位於抽驗豬肉檢驗已行瘦體數,也就是瘦肉精。"},{"start":430.676,"end":454.983,"text":"總共19300件,結果均未檢出。這是他2月發的新聞稿。這個10年未檢出,院長您相信這個說法嗎?我當然相信。您相信這個說法?我可能要給你一些資料,您可能被騙了。好,我們先來看看。2015年、2018年農委會,這近10年內喔。剛才講的是進口。前端飼養。對。"},{"start":458.274,"end":458.454,"text":"﹚陳昭姿"},{"start":481.926,"end":488.568,"text":"你剛剛說你相信食藥署10年無查出的這個說法。那個是進口豬肉。好,下一張。"},{"start":490.345,"end":515.748,"text":"事實上瘦肉精近5年都有違法使用。院長根據食藥署自己的國際期刊Journal of FDA同仁所投書的報告2011年到2015年抽驗1487份續產品檢測瘦肉精有34件不合格有24件為國內產品這邊張市長英文寫的這是第一個另外我要告訴院長監察院在2011年的時候"},{"start":517.91,"end":517.93,"text":"委員長．"},{"start":533.988,"end":534.788,"text":"現在我們在討論銷售專跟後市場的問題"},{"start":556.34,"end":577.259,"text":"施藥署說10年來未檢出,你覺得這個說法正確嗎?該這樣講嗎?我要看一下這個施藥署的資料施藥署的研究報告自己刊登在期刊國際期刊委員他這個資料是commercial livestock product就是說所有商業的蓄產品"},{"start":578.3,"end":582.662,"text":"我想這件事太離譜了就是說有這些資料還10年未檢出這個非常粗糙的一個說法院長這個是假訊息啊這是官方的假訊息啊10年未檢出"},{"start":600.716,"end":603.598,"text":"我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?"},{"start":629.983,"end":649.046,"text":"院長您看到這個號碼追溯號碼就是這次疑似西部特羅肉片的這個瘦肉精使用事件這個是有溯源資料我想知道衛福部到現在有沒有掌握這一批這一批的流向產品總量賣出的數量跟回收的數量有沒有這個數字"},{"start":650.548,"end":667.287,"text":"這個目前都已經有收集下來,都下架。但是我們還沒有看到這個報告數字。已經檢驗了都沒有問題,都沒有含史普特羅。我要談的是,你的產品總量,如果你有數字非常好,趕快讓國人知道,如果"},{"start":668.413,"end":684.016,"text":"你沒有數字,那就是有點…同一批要九十幾件,大概都沒有…好,好,那我要告訴…我要告訴部長或院長,如果即便你有產品總量,我認為那是不正確的。為什麼呢?"},{"start":685.182,"end":710.625,"text":"一隻豬屠宰之後只會吃到肉品嗎?只賣出肉品嗎?人民只吃到肉品嗎?內臟賣不賣?肝臟賣不賣?你追溯的東西,剛剛的報告,增加報告,有幾千件是限制肉品。為什麼我會這樣說呢?為什麼我會這樣說呢?好,院長請你先看這一張投影片的兩張照片。左邊是台湯的梅花肉片。"},{"start":711.943,"end":739.963,"text":"右邊是台堂的豬肝片,豬肝的包裝,他們都宣稱這一盒經得及考驗請問院長你有看出這兩張照片有什麼不同嗎?一個是豬肝一個是豬肉我來告訴院長答案,因為我圈起來了這個肉片的部分它有溯源標章有個QR Code可以去掃有提供產銷履歷很好"},{"start":741.144,"end":751.494,"text":"但是,但是,請看豬肝的部分,空空的。豬肝沒有溯源徽章,沒有產銷履歷,沒有辦法溯源。院長,豬肝上什麼都沒有辦法。"},{"start":758.303,"end":762.448,"text":"委員你是藥學的專家我剛才講過一群豬用同樣的飼料去餵養然後如果有瘦肉精在裡面"},{"start":777.706,"end":784.831,"text":"議員長,一隻豬假設吃下了瘦肉精,牠只會停留在肉片嗎?當然不會嘛。但是所有的肉片,所有的肉片都沒有喔。哪一個地方含量比較高喔?假設要採檢時間喔。反正,議員長"},{"start":807.024,"end":830.805,"text":"豬肝沒有辦法溯源,內臟沒有辦法溯源,這是個敘事吧?我們這個豬肝的溯源的部分,我請...我這邊說明一下齁,我們國內的豬隻的溯源系統是第一個是採自願性的,那台湯的豬隻是有溯源的。我了解,這是自願性,它現在還不是強制性的齁,當然將來可以考慮,但是我要告訴現在是有偏差的。肉片有溯源,極致,但是內臟沒有。"},{"start":833.936,"end":848.426,"text":"未來可以考慮啦,未來可以考慮。這兩張等一下再讓院長來,交給院長來去處理。現在台中市查出來的是肉片,不是內臟。內臟已經成了食安漏洞了。"},{"start":856.585,"end":861.867,"text":"我們國家允許的殘留量含量你看肝臟腎臟跟肌肉是不一樣的肝臟是允許有4倍高"},{"start":876.152,"end":883.299,"text":"你我的醫學背景都了解。我覺得建議很好。未來內臟也要做檢查。如果今天不幸換成西部陀螺更油,這個數字不會只有4倍。"},{"start":895.788,"end":913.13,"text":"這是肉洞欸!這是西部特羅檢驗出來很低啊!我們要做很多預防,所以院長可不可以有個時程?因為本席認為內臟目前是食安的肉洞,那可不可能有一個時程去研議這件事情?怎麼樣?"},{"start":929.465,"end":930.328,"text":"臨時發言委員：陳昭姿"}]}},{"id":"149127","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149127","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb69c946f787d800ec0b347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6e0d607b67d6fab565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:32:11 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各種性傾向的家庭多元的家庭可以生養小孩不僅不符合憲法保障的平等權也不符合他們的家庭權也不符合他們的生育自主權因此本席未來要解決臺灣一再探底的生育率更要幫助大家守護憲法給予我們基本的權利前兩天"},{"start":203.473,"end":204.377,"text":"謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"149126","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149126","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb6f94525f19e58d557b347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a605f3acce349f42ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"09:28:46 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