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nd":2676.175,"text":"那西北客運轉運站這是市政府他自己用BOT方式在進行他沒有申請中央在轉運站上面的補助那他重點當然是說把重陽路這些國道客運放在那邊不是補助的問題而已喔你要提醒他啊西北市政府他不能夠閉門召軍全台灣最擁擠的車路道已經在五股交流道那你要跟他中盤考慮我也不是一定反對"},{"start":2677.136,"end":2701.907,"text":"但是你裝盤考慮你又把這麼多的交通動線又移到新莊來然後新莊來一定從五股上交流道嘛不然你新莊沒有其他的交流道所以這一部分你要提醒他說你要一併考慮在內我們要來提醒雖然他是自己辦理的案子那就交通就尤其他跟五股交流道關係密切以後他就上下嘛這部分我們來提醒整個交通的這些"},{"start":2703.448,"end":2719.239,"text":"相關的規劃啦、交通維持等等我們請...是,因為我擔心我們這麼努力做了一點點小小的改善一部分不能夠達到完成大家的理想那你現在是雪上加霜又增加他的負擔這一方面要綜合考慮或是有其他的"},{"start":2719.94,"end":2721.661,"text":"所以兩方面都有困難考慮了"},{"start":2737.691,"end":2765.828,"text":"第二個重要的交通建設我們講到的是我們臺65線新庄征社南向的第二個出口這個也是我很注重的拜託要跟新北市政府的溝通我知道現在已經基本上同意了可能今年就要發報室做了可是已經通過現在做中規要加油再來就是我們這個泰山板橋捷運輕軌的這個支線我叫他做後港西勝支線那"},{"start":2767.284,"end":2779.586,"text":"之前選前部長會去跟你開過幾次會你也都贊成然後甚至提出一些方案是走塔留坑溪跟潭堤溝的這個高架坐路廊"},{"start":2780.504,"end":2805.114,"text":"結果現在新北市政府你丟給他研究他的研究結果說要開一個30米的計畫道路開玩笑我們那邊的這個房子全部都已經蓋好了你要30米的計畫道路你要去猜誰的房子那要猜多少房子所以你沒有好好的做行政指導結果他自己閉門造局弄了一個根本就跟我希望的目標跟我們原來談好的東西越來越遠的東西啊"},{"start":2806.801,"end":2811.107,"text":"這一點是不是很遺憾?是不是你要跟他加強溝通?我們希望的是走"},{"start":2812.421,"end":2812.921,"text":"他目前就答應預留了。"},{"start":2874.469,"end":2879.013,"text":"謝謝吳委員秉立的質詢。接下來我們請丁委員學中質詢。麻煩請陳院長備詢,謝謝。"},{"start":2899.722,"end":2915.147,"text":"委員歐欣妮,董事長有事嗎?市長,我剛才看到三個案例。第一次當候委員的時候,我做代表為主席的運動社會院議長副委員的時候,你有去幹什麼?第二次就是我做定任的時候,我們黨額外領,那個天文朝,"},{"start":2922.749,"end":2933.018,"text":"還在討論的時候,你有沒有去關心?是,我也在想,你也在記得?對,三個月27時再回家啦。知道說上禮拜我們議長啦,針對到我們這個瘦肉清,以及我們這個大陸漁船這兩航宿航,有可能讓我們一些我們立院的一些同事,"},{"start":2946.751,"end":2963.541,"text":"言語上有一些比較衝動,我知道上禮拜會在四百五、四十多,所以我們今天用開講的方式,這樣好不好?我一向親民氣和,我也覺得委員很重視婚禮的整個發展。"},{"start":2970.345,"end":2978.908,"text":"對啊,我在這,就要探這個機會啦,就要這陣子這個瘦肉精的工作,我會探這個機會來行銷到我們婚姻的雲翔珠,我們婚姻雲翔珠是當我們這裡用一戶大家用先進的技術,來飼養出來我們這裡最健康的豬,而且我們婚姻受到我們中美政權領導之時,我們也是全國第一的"},{"start":2999.616,"end":3003.838,"text":"當非洲豬瘟疫情頭頂,我們第一次拒絕用處理來刺激的第一次。所以確實有來騷動我們的非洲豬瘟,這應該大家都了解。"},{"start":3017.603,"end":3028.529,"text":"我相信院長對我們中內省館長的施政應該是這樣,我們知道了。對,婚姻的主任和婚姻政府在對主任的照顧,我都有感覺到很認真、很努力,也做得很好。像你這麼寫的,因為這真的是高規格的養豬的產業。"},{"start":3039.654,"end":3063.74,"text":"是,感謝我們議長的領導,啊,剛好這早上這個收入金這個開放,我們台中市政府收入錢,我們中央的想法是沒有一樣的,啊,我可以跟你建議一項,因為我不相信說台中,它是私產地,我不相信,我相信議長也不相信,我也不相信我們國家會建這個收入金的資料,未來給我們的資料,"},{"start":3065.24,"end":3065.44,"text":"主席"},{"start":3087.67,"end":3088.15,"text":"這是你的建議啦齁?"},{"start":3109.196,"end":3128.589,"text":"因為我們在檢查地霸的DNA就是要看這是有對來的地霸但是現在台中市政府檢驗的那塊地霸實際上就是在我們台灣出的企業地那裡設的,都是台灣地設的,所以說沒關係啊沒關係,這個院長,我知道院長,我們一定是這個想法但是我們要讓人了解到這個意願"},{"start":3139.036,"end":3139.462,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":3139.642,"end":3155.165,"text":"我們想用這個,當然說我們台灣設立的地方,我們也相信啊,但是辣口的很多人我們相信啊,我們相信,我們要讓人相信,我們就是來做這個動作,大家就來相信,為什麼我要跟你說這個呢?因為當年我們有進口,我會知道那個新聞過的啦,我們有進口到一些法規黨的這個微博地啦,說什麼消息啦,結果啦,讓我們的食安單位查到是怎樣?"},{"start":3169.187,"end":3179.473,"text":"以分作義大利主、義大利主分作港大的地﹑切片、發貨規範及其民眾﹑讓我們的民眾去買東西吃。這件事我相信議長你也知道。所以我會說"},{"start":3184.836,"end":3196.899,"text":"：一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":3207.342,"end":3215.85,"text":"我跟委員報告,你的建議是一個很好的,可以說那塊地也到底是台灣的地,還是美國地,還是外國地。但是因為我們台灣,我們現在的土地、市場、土宅、分層、市場"},{"start":3227.5,"end":3230.402,"text":"議長所說的我都認同,我都認同,我們台灣在整個的留情安全的這個適用方式,我都認同,但是就是有出問題。"},{"start":3254.577,"end":3259.723,"text":"有出問題,我們是針對問題來解決。這五分鐘麻煩議長在研議一下。這不是重點,重點我是要介紹我們雲林的影響組。議員說,如果台中的你KFD"},{"start":3272.058,"end":3283.837,"text":"已經發生這個問題了,我們想可以來參考我們訓練的用電腦所取出來的這個地方的三分,我相信一定會比較好。好來,我現在訓練"},{"start":3286.741,"end":3289.764,"text":"我相信這幾年來,我們中央立委比較慷慨去講到的議題,也有一些農運較在意的問題,我們婚姻觀察有六成。"},{"start":3309.701,"end":3325.469,"text":"臨時討論會議"},{"start":3326.085,"end":3333.409,"text":"現在面對這麼多種的問題﹖黨軍農民遇到農藥這塊這麼堅持在刮手中﹖所以當天我們高軍委員有去講到,我們這個公糧收購的問題,不知道我們院長你的感覺如何?"},{"start":3345.334,"end":3347.576,"text":"今天委員對我們農民的關心"},{"start":3364.571,"end":3379.378,"text":"我相信大家都希望說我們中央有做得更好的收入,這是我們都一定要想的。不過對於公牛來的,我們一年要蓋基準,我們一百年那時候的經驗,一百年那時候蓋3戶跟2戶的香港匯,結果5戶蓋下去以後,本來的中足的面積,本來差不多24萬公頃變成27萬公頃。"},{"start":3389.142,"end":3398.606,"text":"結果事實上說,我們現在的公牛外面的收貨價格已經降低下去,因為我們現在公牛的收貨只有減30%而已,剩下70%都是我們一些私人的收貨的紐結,所以我們是希望說,私人收的紐結會越來越高。"},{"start":3411.372,"end":3422.983,"text":"所以我們現在用我們會倒座四選三的時候,我們現在在控制,我們把地方的面積控制到23萬至24萬公頃。而這個23萬至24萬公頃的水準裡面,我們的樹林的收入已經到每百台幣一千三百塊了。已經超過了我們的...進走面積我們有辦法控制嗎?"},{"start":3434.514,"end":3450.188,"text":"以我們現在的倒座四選三,以及灌溉輪座的方式,可以控制到23至24。你現在說公民的介紹都優廣起來的時候,很多人都伺候去請,伺候去請的時候,面積就優廣起來以後,就降低了。"},{"start":3456.893,"end":3468.175,"text":"我們不是每一塊地都有適合進水中,不是這樣,如果水溫比較強烈的土地,他們怎麼知道進水中。所以這個國分,要怎麼來控制這個量,可能我們都要保證,我們可能也是有辦法來控制這個範圍,這個進水中的範圍。"},{"start":3483.138,"end":3494.588,"text":"因為為什麼?我們已經12年沒有調整了。這12年當中,我們薪水有1萬7千多塊基金薪水。1萬7千多調整到現在已經2萬7千多了。我們所謂不計算法是已經調整14個月了。當然我們這個農園,因為你要知道,牛也起雞。牛也起雞,整體的工資也起雞。"},{"start":3509.821,"end":3531.067,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":3531.167,"end":3536.791,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們一定會去做一個整體的規劃,讓我們中央裡面的事業比較高,以今年的,今年的利益做的時候"},{"start":3549.76,"end":3551.941,"text":"我們會有一個更好的一個評估"},{"start":3570.111,"end":3585.475,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、"},{"start":3589.136,"end":3590.357,"text":"我相信我相信"},{"start":3610.345,"end":3619.849,"text":"否定你臨來的作為都非常困難,或是困難你臨來,所以有多年國會,將對我們政府進行的推動,我也都非常認同。但是我知道啦,你們可能5201,有可能你們就換這位,我也知道,但是當你們520進行,"},{"start":3632.074,"end":3654.354,"text":"您有辦法給我們一個委員卡的一個答案嗎?我希望給我們農業部來整位。我要向委員報告因為接近老總統他還是會怕到這個小英總統的落選。所以說我們的施政一定是會有連續的。更重要的就是說這個"},{"start":3655.755,"end":3656.435,"text":"我們可以逐年慢慢來調整,因為我們現在有錢。"},{"start":3677.585,"end":3702.134,"text":"我們有在這個會議裏面,我們逐年逐一來調整啊,製造方法說,我們政府,我們當初總統的政府,他們要努力啊,進行,讓我們農民,登記以來支持我們民進黨,這些農民,讓他們有得力度的上當,讓他們一個民進黨的那個感覺。對啊,當你們要努力進行,你們有沒有,你們要調整就好了。"},{"start":3703.995,"end":3713.482,"text":"我會認真來顧及認真來發表,希望能夠達到這個委員的要求。對啦,因為你有可能到有可能,但是我還有4年的時間。這件事我一定會委託各位,委託我們農民的管理我絕對會委託各位。還有一項,我們這個天然災害保守條例,我們這個條例到現在已經30多年了。"},{"start":3733.976,"end":3760.174,"text":"其中有經過差不多將近十個月的修改內容,每一項有修改的就是人工勘栽。人工勘栽,我們現在風太當時要結成,我們氣候局都將要掉下去。風太當時要造成一項,我們氣候局也都了解。風速大大,火水流大大,我們氣候局也都將要掉下去。"},{"start":3763.456,"end":3771.046,"text":"我們現在的論壇,我們這個論壇,照你講這個天然災害,我們不能再用這個零工砍災。我在這裡要跟佛教請教一下,叫你去看那區分,那區分裏面說損失20%,你看得出來嗎?"},{"start":3780.799,"end":3791.903,"text":"我向委員報告,第一點就是說,現在的規定是20%都是公所及街上的專家去看,看在20%之下。我向委員報告,我們現在已經有用開發一種用手機及拍照的部分,及配合無人機去勘災的部分來協助這個人工的勘災。"},{"start":3803.146,"end":3804.367,"text":"所以我直接要跟大家報告"},{"start":3825.768,"end":3848.877,"text":"其實我們本人都人,他們不是年尾要報仇,不是這樣,但是人遇到,我們現在萬物的企業,好像這個農作物介紹沒有穩定的狀況,派人去遇到我們這個天然災害,我們中央教你講要重擁、重寬、重建的方式,來對抗我們這個天然災害過程的一個行動。"},{"start":3853.913,"end":3876.624,"text":"不是說我跟你們報告,我們去年剛好遭到小選颱風你知道嗎?小選颱風全國性,我們這個農村府受損都很嚴重。當小選颱風走行之後,兄弟,我們十幾個車公來走行這個小選颱風的財海,八十一位要在偏行公共活動。"},{"start":3878.945,"end":3885.21,"text":"我看我跟委員報告,那小選颱風因為他的檢控,檢控出來有一些延遲性的受損。就是說你當下看不出來說他有受損,不過你差不多一禮拜、兩禮拜以後,他才會慢慢地打起來。"},{"start":3900.402,"end":3910.468,"text":"所以這個小選臺方是比較特例的,就是說有緣分的部分會造成一些延遲性的災損。所以我現在在說的就是這樣,就是這樣,我們既然我們了解到我們這次的方針有去造成到我們這個天然災害,還有一項臨間抗災,我現在在說臨間抗災就是"},{"start":3924.956,"end":3939.401,"text":"他們的工作是做第一層第一層來推我們農業部來代管到收集我們這些農民的資料。是。是,他先要再去看生意順勢到20%才可以推他們上去,先這樣。"},{"start":3939.901,"end":3963.475,"text":"我跟委員報告,現在稍後有改革,就是說若有一些天然災害來的時候,我們的試驗單位會第一層去看,你若看有一些普遍性的災害的時候,我們農業部就主動公告,就不用叫地方政府來申請再來公告,這個會加快大概5天的時間。那是說基中有可能發生更加嚴重的啦,我是希望啦,"},{"start":3966.817,"end":3989.189,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":3989.309,"end":4003.885,"text":"瞭解到這個區域上只要放縮、補水量,若有特徵,我們這個天然災的補助會有一個條例,我們先用全面上全面來補助。這樣去做成就農民和基層公所的販輸領域的給分。你可知道這個小錢颱風,"},{"start":4009.051,"end":4012.713,"text":"這次小園颱風剛好遇到孫綺綺啦,剛好遇到孫綺綺,既然有發動人、政黨、農民去講掃、要控議,講講掃都在這個在下過程中不犯過,是講掃都要照我們農業部的規定來做。"},{"start":4028.208,"end":4029.529,"text":"是不是這樣?"},{"start":4029.529,"end":4048.096,"text":"了解,對啊。對啊,既然我們公訴對到我們論壇的規定,他們盡忠職守,他們非常認真照我們的規定去做,既然讓人來論壇,會讓人來做這個選舉、選舉的一個操作,我們要把論壇做小的,說什麼事都要在公訴啊,公訴是要我負責的論壇,"},{"start":4055.1,"end":4063.509,"text":"用這個整體操作來讓那些農民這樣來移農那些農民讓那些農民那些社會在那裡種來種去,這樣不對啦!我覺得這樣不對啦!未來啦!我競合中啦!我未來我不會去做這個事情,但是我希望"},{"start":4070.919,"end":4089.532,"text":"我希望,我們對這個天然災的保守條例,一定要事實來做修改。一定要事實來做修改,不可以再用這個人工勘測,我們中央決定的政策,我們中央自己來發布,我們中央來承擔。如果有什麼考慮,在地上合同來承擔,這樣好不好?"},{"start":4091.713,"end":4104.321,"text":"我向委員報告我們的天然災害救助方法一直在滾動修改在第一點第二點就是說我們現在已經盡量減少一些人工勘災已經目前已經差不多夠了因為有一些人工勘災用氣象參數的"},{"start":4109.625,"end":4124.131,"text":"他要有一些比較客觀的科學數據啦,就是說像三百億,你如果超過十多、二十四點鐘的人,你就不用看啦。我就知道說他一定是我們挑起的。所以每一個作物,他對運動、對風俗都有影響。這個數據如果我們有抓到的話,我們就有用。"},{"start":4127.512,"end":4135.255,"text":"會用科學的氣象參數來處理,就不用勘測啊。所以這是一步一步這樣處理的,我會盡量...希望啦,對啦,希望,保證我們可以教說,我們現在先進的科技的技術,可以好好來運用,我們現在就都一直在說農業智慧,"},{"start":4147.68,"end":4161.591,"text":"科技、科技農業、科技漁業,我們就一直開始一直在推廣這啊。有什麼就給他這個勘測,就要組成農園和基層工作人員,組成協同的一個糾紛。這真的,我做定調起來我會知道,那真的遇到的時候,有時候農園的人員和工作分數人員的人員完全不同。"},{"start":4171.724,"end":4179.335,"text":"對呀,當然他們是有他的管理,但是那個公所的管事人員,他是有的來修緩。"},{"start":4180.461,"end":4192.79,"text":"所以我們要顧到農民的權利,我們要顧到我們官方的這個法令,這個法令的事情。這真的造成了很大的困擾。所以我們如果用這個科技來看齋,專研型的實施,不管黨黨領、市領裡面用這個科技看齋,專研型實施絕對有很大的困擾。而且還有發展到我們的從事從寬從幼。"},{"start":4209.501,"end":4219.85,"text":"的這個過程的一個要領。我也是要說,我們農民用農藥保險啦,因為農藥保險都不用勘測啦,那到時候看你的生意,沒有,現在有27項的平衡,54張的保單,啊用這些都不用勘測,你到時候三年紀律就不會了。"},{"start":4233.281,"end":4246.729,"text":"好,這個過分再拜託我們農業部再繼續嚴厲,我們是要持續的進步,我們不要在原地塌附,這樣好不好?好,再來針對我們這個水利費的過分啦,水利費現在稍等要公佑啦,我們在之前我們都聽到很多聲音,以前水利費每一年都有兩個月的經費,可以下去給我們農民修繕,他們的農水囉,都可以修繕農水囉,現在稍等要公佑,"},{"start":4261.357,"end":4274.322,"text":"你能贏喔,自己開車,我們不要再整頓水庫,都不用水庫人員,你自己開車去我們訓練的處理站看。我們那裡的員工想贏贏,大家贏贏有事情好做。而且怎樣?你跟他們說過去只要水路、水海、熱水走,跟我們處理站說,我們處理站那裡就有辦法發揮到他們的共鳴聲,我相信來協助的都人。現在不是,現在都沒有。"},{"start":4290.228,"end":4301.093,"text":"我向委員報告,你剛才說的經費從過去水利費時代到現在我們農水水的時代,那個經費從40幾億變成每年127億,在第一天,我們的經費增加在那裡灌輸增加,在你的部分就是說,你剛才說的這些劇毒的施策...當我們那裡啦,我們那裡啦,我們沿海的十一鄉鎮啦,都聽到了啦,說的是怎樣,你水路啦,我做,"},{"start":4316.823,"end":4326.031,"text":"就要聽一個人的話,要去怪討一個人。沒有,這個完全不是事實,我們有感覺啊。我相信有事實,未來會不會這樣發生?會這樣發生,你未來將對我們分明關這個農水路的改善,你會怎樣讓我們有辦法適度、比較多資源來改善我們的農水路?"},{"start":4341.363,"end":4344.925,"text":"我知你講的這些我都知道啦。阿未來呢?未來主委會更多嗎?"},{"start":4367.254,"end":4396.193,"text":"我剛才講的齁,現在他主要計算的水利額是在40幾億,現在變27億,平均一年一百27億,另外我們有意好特別預算齁。那個,那個否定齁,你講的,均在這裡以前這是全國性還是只有婚姻官而已啊?喔,全國性的。全國性婚姻官,你知道婚婦有多少?沒有,這個分配性就是看各地方的郡路要不要修理,齁,這個會去,我們每年都會有,有統計啦,每個地區沒什麼工啦。"},{"start":4397.536,"end":4397.556,"text":"趙國昌議員"},{"start":4405.014,"end":4416.603,"text":"未來只要我們分明館只要這個農水路的輸給有輸給給予補給我希望我們國庭出境都要轉入台北我會軍心來幫你拜託這個補份再拜託一下再來我要請教議長我們現在是運營比較重要還是廠商的利益比較重要?"},{"start":4432.875,"end":4445.207,"text":"我認為兩邊都要堅固,尤其是整個國家的發展,我們有需要政府和民間做的來合作。我現在要跟議長報告的就是這樣,我們現在考五項這個社區的選擇,這個選擇。"},{"start":4454.206,"end":4455.946,"text":"臨時提案時間臨時提案時間臨時提案時間臨時提案時間"},{"start":4483.713,"end":4489.318,"text":"對這件案件來做最重要的一個抗議。還有一項,我聽過說假地開雙人會以地來施工,政府臨庭以假地開雙人會以地施工。"},{"start":4506.372,"end":4515.499,"text":"我跟委員報告他確實已經開了兩次的說明會那對地方的這些疑慮其實也都有說明那變電站這個環境的風險"},{"start":4520.543,"end":4541.548,"text":"反省環境風險但是探視他的程序就是有不符合啊。假定開會議定是說當天我到這裏的人我完全不知道要做這件事。結果是去跟六公里以外的政壇去開小園會。那些小園會那些人說出事去聰明莫名其妙去聰明聰聰的。回來我們這政壇的人完全沒人去。這樣就尊崇。"},{"start":4545.971,"end":4555.482,"text":"這樣可以遵守嗎?我們要確定他的說明會開到有合法嗎?就是這樣怎麼會有合法?這樣就是完整會議合法啊!當我們台灣比較好要做的工作,叫你說你要來說明給我知道說你這是要做什麼未來用途是要做什麼,做起來會怎麼樣?"},{"start":4566.795,"end":4567.335,"text":"我感覺..."},{"start":4589.27,"end":4607.962,"text":"相信,相信,我們的居民有他們的管理,跟這屆議員在擴充啦。我相信,我相信保證這案你互相了解。因為發展這個再生能源,讓綠電更多,我們當然是支持。我們文明館,文明文明館是一個很大的館,現在我們整個考核,"},{"start":4616.087,"end":4625.171,"text":"因為如果是在我們原來公園區那邊,那只是公園區的發展。沒有啦,你用一個像是地地律啦,福利跟專區啦,只要用這個說法就給予會很少人了。我只要你說,欸不對,只要你說你是要去兜風,你就去兜風回坑喔。"},{"start":4643.78,"end":4650.942,"text":"我跟委員補講,你剛才說的這個,我們的專區裡面,漁電工程裡面,兩萬九百五千,基中有在做光電的我們兩千幾公頃而已,沒有到兩萬幾。第二點,你剛才說的滴滴地區裡面有兩千一百六十二公頃,基中有大概六百幾公頃去做漁電工程,就是做這個光電的地方。所以不是說所有的東西都去做這個。"},{"start":4673.772,"end":4682.363,"text":"所以我現在要講的意思說,我們不要只想著我們要做什麼,我們就要做什麼。你要去地方,去了解地方的人。"},{"start":4683.729,"end":4699.095,"text":"他們對我們這個東西他們有認同喔,而且我們管政府他們對地方比較了解阿,公訴對地方比較了解,我們只要我們更強,我們希望這個地方會做什麼,我們可以找管政府找地方公訴,做到去開庭,在街頭訪問一個人道。"},{"start":4724.603,"end":4731.687,"text":"謝謝丁委員學中的質詢。接下來我們請登記第十位黃委員三三質詢。"},{"start":4746.465,"end":4769.9,"text":"好的請院長麻煩請陳院長備詢黃委員長恭喜你來回任這個立委謝謝院長我想今天是我第一次在立法院質詢我想問一下院長人民的生命財產大概是你最重要的任務了吧是"},{"start":4770.691,"end":4786.371,"text":"人民的生命財產安全包括前幾天大家爭執的非常多的食品安全當然也有財產上的安全所以院長您也當過副總統那現在是行政院長您覺得這8年來台灣是不是已經成為詐騙之島"},{"start":4789.034,"end":4814.583,"text":"確實全世界的詐騙的趨勢都有在增加特別是在COVID-19的這個期間那如果根據國際相關的組織的這個發布呢在已開發國家當中都受到詐騙的困擾台灣也不例外台灣的狀況應該是更嚴重你就是說沒有如果最嚴重的情形是新加坡新加坡好那當然我們不要跟他比差啦但是所有的台灣人應該都接過詐騙電話您接過嗎"},{"start":4817.126,"end":4843.94,"text":"我沒有,因為我比較忙,很少接電話。大概只要是正常人都有接過詐騙,或者是相關的訊息,或者是自己的親朋好友大概都有詐騙的經驗。所以詐騙在臺灣,今天部長在旁邊,臺灣的詐騙狀況法務部你覺得你滿意嗎?我們還有努力的空間。原因是什麼?為什麼這麼多,然後你還有努力的空間?"},{"start":4845.468,"end":4867.998,"text":"因為每一次都有新興的一個詐騙的手法那我們一定要針對他們新興的手法就是說詐騙的手法太新了新到我們跟不上是嗎等我們發現的時候我們就要擬進一個具體的一個做法來因應對部長我想臺灣是詐騙之島這個名字並不好聽第二個"},{"start":4872.004,"end":4896.589,"text":"詐騙的猖獗已經成為百姓的痛點尤其是剛剛過去的總統大選其實每一個陣營包括更多的相關的人包括立法院都一樣非常重視這件事情因為這是剛剛講的人民的財產安全人民有免於恐懼的自由所以詐騙、猖獗不應該成為臺灣政府的代名詞所以"},{"start":4897.473,"end":4920.684,"text":"的數量,院長可以看一下這個數字。這數字非常的驚人。其實在105年到現在,就是蔡英文總統上任之後,其實8年期間,8年的成長率,從原來的大概每一年是23000多件,一直到112年大概37000件。它的數量不斷的飆升,然後金額從"},{"start":4922.226,"end":4932.513,"text":"幾十億三四十億到五六十億現在已經到八十八億所以院長這個數字是尤其是這三年不知道為什麼這三年特別的嚴重"},{"start":4933.298,"end":4959.876,"text":"所以委員我剛才才跟你講說如果按照國際的這個狀況來看全世界都是這個趨勢那我們的這個上升的趨勢大概是在增加60%吧其他國家是有增加但是我要跟委員說明的是在這個詐騙的金額確實是有增加但是我們在打詐的努力當中我們追回來的這一些金額還有在這個銀行的欄櫃的金額大概有一筆一百"},{"start":4962.278,"end":4964.519,"text":"昨天我們開過記者會,我想部長大概也看到了,就是"},{"start":4988.295,"end":5010.107,"text":"電信詐欺3年之內成長了360%,也就是說檢察署的人力負擔真的是相當重。第二個它的數量從34000件漲到16萬件,這個比例這是非正常的狀況。所以就所謂電信詐欺目前大概是台灣最大宗的一塊,對吧?猜不著。"},{"start":5011.489,"end":5027.587,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那檢察官助理去年行政院也支持我們有一百名的檢察官助理來幫忙打詐那而且今年又答應給我們150名所以對檢察官這個打詐的效率來講一定會提升的"},{"start":5028.325,"end":5057.612,"text":"所以檢察官助理是在民國88年其實就有提案了但是當時只通過了法官助理還有檢察事務館那20多年來檢察官助理其實在檢改包括所謂的檢改團體他們一直都在主張那現在打詐不管是打詐也好或者是其他的刑事偵查犯罪也好其實相對檢察官的壓力是非常大的所以檢察官助理目前為止入法了沒"},{"start":5058.41,"end":5059.73,"text":"目前我們是行政上先來加強他們"},{"start":5087.495,"end":5113.336,"text":"所以院長明年113年明年還會有繼續給他們預算嗎?現在100個嘛還要再給他們150個對250個對所以但是什麼時候要入法?你什麼時候要送到立法院來?我想入法就像剛才我們部長講的嘛我們也曾經有過這樣的努力那我們會來研議以後來看看這樣的一個合適性當然需要我們來開相關的"},{"start":5116.019,"end":5122.734,"text":"您的看守時間到520,您能不能在你任期內把這個案子送到立法院來?"},{"start":5124.772,"end":5147.206,"text":"應該可以吧,應該都會寫那麼久了。是,我們馬上提出來,那希望委員能夠大力支持。我們會支持,而且我們希望你們盡快送進來,能夠在院長卸任的時候留下這個最重要的一個任務。不過跟委員說明,因為法院組織法是司法院所主管的法規,那會受到司法院的耽擱,不過委員提案了,當然我們盡快。"},{"start":5148.446,"end":5171.701,"text":"如果他是重要的就不應該受到耽擱。如果司法院要耽擱就請司法院快一點表示意見。而不是我們把責任推給司法院。部長這是你的責任。所以司法院如果他有更多...如果要做就不會有人耽擱。"},{"start":5173.042,"end":5190.348,"text":"所以我們要好好跟他溝通,了解他們如果要耽擱的理由在哪裡。 院長,如果這個案子之前已經編了預算,也給了100個表示他是重要的,接下去你要再給150個表示他非常的重要,但是我們現在還在說要通過律師法院溝通,那行政院的立場是?"},{"start":5191.528,"end":5210.523,"text":"事情的解決有兩個嘛一個就是立法嘛另外一個就是說從行政的角度嘛行政院的角度我們就先給他充實他的人力我需要的是時間啦我想大家都沒有爭議我現在就是時間了還要有司法院有三個院要一起來努力啦所以我才說嘛這是您如果假設您520"},{"start":5211.664,"end":5215.167,"text":"我當然樂觀其成我當然樂觀其成我盡力來追討我盡力所以我希望打詐不會只有一個打詐辦公室打詐"},{"start":5237.29,"end":5259.357,"text":"是全民一起。第二個,要給他武器,要給他人力。好,我們會。委員那個打仗不是只有打仗辦公室,打仗辦公室是coordinate,內政部、法務部、通常會議、法會。人民在看你的決心,人民在看你的做法。第二個,要給他充足的人力跟設備,他才能夠讓台灣脫離所謂的詐騙指導的惡名。我們有決心。"},{"start":5264.218,"end":5276.329,"text":"院長我們也希望你在會期520之前完成這件事好下一個問題是稅制改革我想院長您也在行政院非常久針對整個財政狀況台灣的財政狀況您覺得狀況如何"},{"start":5280.506,"end":5307.101,"text":"我覺得臺灣從COVID-19開始以後再加上全世界的這個供應鏈的改變臺灣的經濟成長在這幾年確實是比以往來說來得好很多而且說出盈餘委員可能也知道從2017年開始就是正的然後最近幾年都到3000億財政狀況是相當不錯因為出口也很好然後經濟發展也不錯但是"},{"start":5307.941,"end":5337.236,"text":"台灣針對所謂的稅制改革其實從蔡政府上任之後一直提出有一些稅務需要改我這邊列出來就是長期來大家在討論的叫做娛樂稅、貨物稅、印花稅我還記得很清楚蘇貞昌院長的時候在2019年大力說要廢除印花稅我當時代表台北市政府來立法院跟相關的單位陳情因為印花稅是重要的地方稅"},{"start":5338.194,"end":5358.762,"text":"如果要取消不是不可以而且它也是一個比較落後的稅制但是中央在稅制改革上面針對娛樂稅貨物稅還有印花稅這種已經不合時的稅制它的改革一直有提出來但是到現在為止沒有看到結果"},{"start":5361.149,"end":5387.115,"text":"八年的狀況是怎樣咧?你要不要告訴我一下咧?是不是跟委員說明一下印花稅的部分大概一年收取是170億是地方政府非常重要的一個稅源那這個部分呢我們也邀請地方政府來過開會他們都認為說這個部分是他們很重要的稅源所以他們不贊成廢除地方政府不是不贊成地方政府是需要有替代裁員"},{"start":5387.935,"end":5413.3,"text":"要有替代財源但是雖然是有替代財源對他們來說這個還是財政制度很重要這是因為地方稅為什麼蘇院長在沒有經過審慎思考的時候就說要廢呢那我想另外委員提到就是說你要回答我的問題啊是你們要廢的理由是什麼因為它是一個不合時宜的稅制對吧當然它有一定的一個時間但目前來說還是因為它是1934年民國23年時候訂的法是"},{"start":5416.641,"end":5441.243,"text":"那是一個非常落後的稅制。第二個娛樂稅的部分以前它是一種奢侈一種高消費但是現在的娛樂稅它已經是電影演唱會球賽已經是人民的基本的日常生活它沒有什麼特別的特別的高消費第三個是貨物稅貨物稅是嚴重的違反所謂的租稅的中立性不是嗎"},{"start":5441.954,"end":5445.057,"text":"我現在就是不知道我沒有時間給你講太多我的意思說這三個要檢討檢討了八年檢討出什麼東西來"},{"start":5467.159,"end":5471.181,"text":"我直接要問的是八年的部分的癥結在於我們從來沒有好好檢討過剛剛講的這些稅如果要取消它的替代財源是在哪裡?"},{"start":5489.65,"end":5519.005,"text":"沒有想過替代裁員有找到替代裁員了嗎還是還繼續在研議中還是之後說要廢但是反正沒有替代裁員我們就隨便說說就好我想任何財稅的改革中央地方都需要一起來研議然後各界也需要來講所以當時在廢印發稅的時候沒有跟地方政府討論就直接說要廢除所以我們當時臺北市政府才要帶人到立法院"},{"start":5519.905,"end":5521.187,"text":"所以稅制改革需要時間。"},{"start":5533.753,"end":5551.904,"text":"應該要檢討,但是需要溝通跟具體的作為。院長,這個爭解就是,執政8年檢討的結果目前還沒看到。第二個,你可不可以給我一個具體的調整的方向,還有影響程度的跟調整的角度。所以在這8年來我們有很多稅制的改革。"},{"start":5557.467,"end":5558.829,"text":"我今天的要求就是既然討論這麼久檢討的方向給我一個時間表"},{"start":5573.732,"end":5601.873,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分我們都有做檢討就是如同剛剛委員說要尊重地方政府的意見所以地方政府的意見是非常的分歧重視找替代財源他也認為這個破壞了他的財政自主因為他是地方稅他就要還有自主權我明白所以我們在幫你找替代財源接下去我要跟你說的是10年前蔡總統在他的10年政綱說要建立綠色的稅制2011年他其實就提出來所謂綠色稅制"},{"start":5603.237,"end":5605.439,"text":"綠色的稅制接下去我們現在2024了綠色稅制要在"},{"start":5634.435,"end":5658.966,"text":"2026歐盟要進行相關的碳稅的之前,我們現在就必須要準備。兩位同意嗎?委員這個部分已經在今年開始在環境部的部分依照氣變法已經開始徵收碳稅。我們現在的氣候變遷法是碳稅先行,碳稅再慢慢過渡。但事實上在歐盟大概2026就到了,現在已經2024了。"},{"start":5660.387,"end":5674.188,"text":"然後碳費的部分他其實並不是所謂的大家都有他是可能比較特殊的大的企業第二個他不是全民第三個最重要的是他可能沒有辦法接軌國際是吧"},{"start":5675.837,"end":5676.377,"text":"台灣政府必須針對碳稅開始做因應了。"},{"start":5704.131,"end":5728.968,"text":"因為他將會衝擊產業的出口最重要的是我們透過碳費大概很難引導人民在生活上面做一些改變但是如果碳稅全民都必須要配合的話這個可能會是將來臺灣可以面對氣候變遷還有所謂的產業轉型才能夠一次到位也就碳費先行碳稅"},{"start":5730.838,"end":5733.18,"text":"我們也只有兩年的時間這個時間不可能再讓大家滿滿演繹"},{"start":5759.878,"end":5779.625,"text":"所以我的意思是說剛剛講的替代裁員、判稅會是你的替代裁員的考慮的對象之一。這個方式現在就必須要痛定思痛。有時候比較先進的立法會造成一時的痛苦,但是它可以引力人民生活習慣的改變。"},{"start":5781.159,"end":5781.639,"text":"三位同意嗎?"},{"start":5809.906,"end":5812.428,"text":"我現在給你兩個建議嘛。第一個反正我們替代財源要漲。"},{"start":5830.265,"end":5832.267,"text":"這是我覺得在您的看守期間可以把這個方向明確的指出來。"},{"start":5855.209,"end":5870.454,"text":"還有我們環境部也是一個非常重要的任務。市部長要不要講一下呢?非常謝謝黃委員的建議。事實上我們跟財政部莊部長這邊都有保持密切的聯繫。就如同剛剛黃委員所提到的"},{"start":5870.954,"end":5876.015,"text":"所以我說嘛就是其實要做都要先溝通所以這是一個很重要的過程"},{"start":5893.22,"end":5915.181,"text":"那重點是政治的核心真的是執行力啦在這邊要跟院長抱怨一下我們臺北市在2022年其實就6月份就把淨零排放的管理自治條例送到行政院等於是在兩年多前我們就送過來光在行政院合併的過程大概就一年半"},{"start":5916.382,"end":5937.233,"text":"這個裡面有非常多所謂淨零碳排的路徑,包括可能將來在台北市的比如說旅館,它就不可以再放所謂的一次性的用品。類似這樣的東西是需要跟民間溝通的。也就是說一個法律的推展,它必須要事先而且要提早跟企業跟市民來過溝通。"},{"start":5938.584,"end":5956.353,"text":"但是一個法案躺在行政院一年半才核定有很多要跟地方溝通的事就會耽誤到所以院長我不知道為什麼一個法案要核定個一年半因為你已經離開嘛所以離開台北市政府我想我們請部長來說明為什麼我們會"},{"start":5958.862,"end":5983.271,"text":"需要一段時間來跟地方做溝通是我想非常謝謝黃委員在擔任台北市副市長的時候在2022年7月5號就把台北市的淨零排放因為我們的市議會非常認真很快就通過了但是因為我們的氣候變遷因應法事實上是去年2月15號才通過那氣候變遷法通過之後還有12個執法"},{"start":5985.012,"end":6011.603,"text":"所以地方的自治條例必須也在執法跟探盤查、探費等等相關的必須先公告之後才能夠去審地方的自治條例我要回到是說就是說像這種淨零探牌的事情已經很早我們大概就知道國際趨勢的方式連一個地方政府都跑得這麼快我的意思是說將來的環境不尤其是剛剛升格"},{"start":6013.083,"end":6041.52,"text":"將來可能應該是中央跑的要比地方快一點。地方等你的謀法出來、執法出來的地方都等不及了。所以我的意思是說今天既然環境部已經升格他就要變成行政院裡面淨零碳排的領頭羊。他要帶著這個國家朝向這個方向更高的位階甚至可能要院長來做領導。整個行政院要一起配合。當然"},{"start":6042.79,"end":6043.07,"text":"我一定努力來這樣做至少在這幾個月內"},{"start":6063.012,"end":6067.595,"text":"好的院長我覺得這個是很重要接下來還有一個小問題但這個問題我覺得也是地方政府很在乎的才化法蔡總統也說過才化法要修正也說了10年這10年8年的執政"},{"start":6092.401,"end":6111.389,"text":"有沒有送過財化法的修正案到立法院?基本上我想財化法不只是蔡總統的這一段時間。是所有的行政院長都說過要修的對吧?而且是立正的總統都有提到財化法。為什麼都不做呢?我想這個不做。或是立方有意見?"},{"start":6114.714,"end":6139.094,"text":"委員你當過副市長你很清楚這一個需要各縣市比如說六都、縣市明白了,我們都明白但是就是有沒有人要做嘛第一個財化法現在的問題我想院長也很清楚這當然委員我講還沒有講完我可以講一下嗎我們時間只剩7分鐘我還有一個題目我們認為財化法是很重要是不是讓部長簡單講一分鐘好不好部長很簡單是"},{"start":6143.623,"end":6170.103,"text":"這個財化法的問題分配不均,發展失衡,人均差異很大。臺北大概是兩萬四,新北的人大概只分到一萬二。更嚴重的是像新竹縣,它只分到九千多。然後最重要的是中央掌握了這個錢跟權,然後地方低頭,所以它就變成一個魔戒。到現在為止沒有一個中央的官員或中央的首長願意下放這個權利,你同意嗎?"},{"start":6170.883,"end":6198.357,"text":"跟委員報告財化法雖然沒有修但是中央透過中央統籌分配稅款跟一般性的補助款對地方的財政大力的益助加上地方政府的努力那財政狀況已經有所改善那至於財化法的修正院長已經指示要遵循各界的意見凝聚共識所以財政部也凝聚了六項的修法原則第一個就是提升財政自主第二個是調劑財政盈蓄第三個是劃一分配的基礎以及精進分配的機制"},{"start":6199.037,"end":6214.704,"text":"然後保障地方財源以及既有的財源不減少那這個部分的六個原則之下有關分配的指標也已經請各地方政府來提意見不過目前各地方政府提出來的意見都非常的分歧那差距很大所以你要分錢給他當然是其實你只要立原則就好第二個院長我覺得直接很簡單態度上"},{"start":6220.486,"end":6221.687,"text":"委員講得比較好聽21縣市來了意見真的相當分歧"},{"start":6242.85,"end":6268.315,"text":"就直接說我會好好分配就好啦也就是說不要承諾一些空話啦這才是我的問題好啦結論是我們希望說有一個制度性的改革方案第二個我們希望至少有個方向齁這個方向連馬英九任內喔都送一個版本你們連版本都沒有那為什麼會沒有通過呢我想就是因為這就是如果長期溝通16年都沒通過的話就是要"},{"start":6269.434,"end":6293.693,"text":"如果現在是你執政,你就必須要去處理啊。對,處理的過程就是剛才講的,我們已經有進步。我希望看守內閣不是空轉內閣,該做的事情就去做。第二個,剛剛講的不合時宜的稅要調整。第二個,碳稅要開始研議。第三個,財化法的方向其實還是要交代,即使蔡總統要卸任。"},{"start":6294.744,"end":6321.917,"text":"賴總統上任一樣要把這個問題跟全民交代清楚。好嗎?好,接下去我剩4分鐘了我還有一個比較重要的問題要來問一下院長。院長這8年你覺得台灣的居住正義落實的如何?我覺得蔡總統當時講的有一些有關於居住正義的事情確實有認真在做。那像是社會住宅的部分或者我覺得"},{"start":6323.382,"end":6331.484,"text":"效果應該是不錯但是對於但是台灣為什麼還是低薪高房價年輕人痛苦不堪"},{"start":6332.247,"end":6360.429,"text":"我想房價不可能在很短的時間內會有很大的變動但是我覺得解決臺灣的問題就好像你們所提出來的一樣就是要從社會住宅來著手八年來住宅的價格上漲了32%可是我們的員工就是薪水上漲10%也就是我們薪水成長趕不上房價第二個部分是八年執政從所得比"},{"start":6361.978,"end":6369.871,"text":"從8.97變成9.86也就是說可能要再多一年不吃不喝才能買房那聯徵中心認為也查到了"},{"start":6371.206,"end":6392.482,"text":"拜訪首購的年金往後挪移就從30到35現在首購要35到40然後臺北市當然更嚴重是15.67但也是世界級的第一個前面名列前茅那另外就是在平均地權新法當時是希望能夠打房可是目前為止好像後來又有新清安貸款"},{"start":6393.303,"end":6420.269,"text":"那其實又催促了買氣就是說我們在打房跟催促買氣的情況下其實兩個政策好像有稍微互相矛盾那比較嚴重的就是審計部也幫我這不是我講這是審計部講房價高青年負擔的能力即使提供了更高的補助還有更高的額度的貸款延長了貸款的年限還有補貼他更多的利息但是"},{"start":6421.34,"end":6437.858,"text":"議員："},{"start":6438.939,"end":6461.179,"text":"我想我們做了很多為什麼會這麼嚴重就像你剛才講的這個房價繼續往上飆那另外一個很重要的事情我覺得我們現在要解決臺灣這個住的問題特別是年輕人住的問題的話應該要從社會住宅的這個角度來擴建是一個最能夠建級旅居而且能夠做到更好的地方"},{"start":6461.459,"end":6465.361,"text":"所以我們才會有來推動社會住宅,然後有這個租金補貼,再加上所謂的這個包租貸款。但是你知道很多年輕人是拿不到租金補貼的嗎?"},{"start":6490.553,"end":6500.093,"text":"因為他的房東不准他去申請。這個部分我想你可能還不了解最近的狀況。如果他去申請了他就只有選擇搬家。"},{"start":6501.468,"end":6530.359,"text":"我想委員提到這個問題我們在去年的時候其實已經大幅的解決那當然可能還有一些狀況不過跟前年的狀況目前已經大幅改善了大幅改善院長其實我現在要說的是我時間也不多了租屋市場的黑市還是台灣很嚴重的一個問題即使我們租宅法修正我們可以拿去申請租金補貼但是他可能下一次續約的時候就被迫搬走了第二個就是"},{"start":6531.087,"end":6553.657,"text":"他可能也沒有辦法申請戶口所以所有在台北北漂的孩子其實都很難在台北有享受社會福利所以我覺得這幾個東西租黑市讓他能夠陽光化才是內政部接下來應該要做的事林部長怎麼樣租黑市陽光化是你最重要的任務吧"},{"start":6554.085,"end":6579.688,"text":"是,我們在於租屋的一個透明度,其實這幾年其實也進步很多。到目前為止,我們能夠...好,謝謝黃委員、珊珊的質詢。接下來,院會報告。現在院會報告我們休息10分鐘。謝謝。"},{"start":7164.855,"end":7166.869,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7210.855,"end":7226.58,"text":"報告院會現在繼續開會接下來我們請林委員代話質詢主席有請陳院長麻煩請陳院長備詢"},{"start":7234.318,"end":7235.2,"text":"臨委員長,恭喜委員當選連任。"},{"start":7239.497,"end":7267.351,"text":"好本期呢針對兩個議題來建議我們行政院第一個是建立犬貓國家公益學庫另外一個是世青更新好在這個犬貓的部分呢我們現在寵物飼養的狀態在2023年去年年底的時候有晶片植入登記的已經達225萬但是台灣目前對動物用血是無法可管所以對於需要去輸血的寵物或買動物血液的飼主"},{"start":7267.791,"end":7291.903,"text":"就無公正第三支持單位來支援,所以讓寵物輸選成為高風險的行為。官方民間各怎麼做?官方在2019年的時候,農委會有犬貓宣輸選的公告,但是循同虛設。民間的部分在2022年的時候,有民間自主的募款透明選擇的計畫,但是最後還是無疾而終。那我們的寵物呢?"},{"start":7293.442,"end":7318.055,"text":"目前飼養狀況當娃娃車內的是寵物的時候臺灣就已經進入毛小孩的時代在去年年底15歲的人口是279萬人飼養犬貓登記的有晶片登記的是225萬隻我本席相信如果再加上沒有登記的這個寵物那更是高了好這樣子也不得不讓我們去重視"},{"start":7319.315,"end":7337.92,"text":"寵物醫療用血及他的醫療權益了。在去年在這個犬貓目前的輸血以犬來講與貓來講我們這個貓的血液有AB群有A型B型AB型犬的血液就有8群"},{"start":7339.56,"end":7347.388,"text":"好那正式的合格選庫的機構提供的在臺灣只有95%95%是未被公認的安全選役這95%當中的56%是來自以牟利為導向的獸醫院這其中的44%是來自非獸醫院的犬貓氏族"},{"start":7359.72,"end":7387.478,"text":"學犬、雪貓的悲慘事件就在臺灣上升也因為臺灣現況對動物用血無法可管即使民間有善意執行成立的血液互助會也因為沒有公正第三單位的支持讓寵物輸血成為高風險的行為所以本席強烈的主張同業部要制定相關管理的條例而這個條例當中一定有三個價值文明、道德、公義什麼叫做文明?"},{"start":7388.319,"end":7388.339,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":7418.739,"end":7439.851,"text":"一直到97年有正式的醫療財團法人臺灣血液基金會我們的寵物是不是可以比照辦理呢?好這樣的餵獵館的血液交易有什麼問題?四個第一個飼養血犬的超抽血液也但是呢這個超抽血液會導致狗狗軟腳貧血但還是沒有辦法管"},{"start":7440.151,"end":7464.598,"text":"只有法令規定說最高划環是15000元但是也沒有執行。第二個問題血液來源沒有保障第三個血品的設備與配備也有問題第四個缺乏公正第三方統籌外國怎麼做美國英國印度美國在2021年的時候有專訪任何生產動物血液的和血液的成品都要向農業部申請"},{"start":7465.418,"end":7465.438,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":7481.264,"end":7498.22,"text":"的銀行印度在2010年的時候首次啟動了全雪庫創亞洲先例。本期的主張容業部在3個月內嚴厲建立全貓公益雪庫的規劃方案,含逐年編列的預算。"},{"start":7498.72,"end":7523.877,"text":"好在這個當桌的運作呢這個本席也有這個建議的時程我們要強調文明在前12年我們就建立犬貓公益學庫的機制三四年落實道德學研合作研發的機制五六年鼓勵公益完成了永續經營學庫的平台本席期待的非營利動物血液的基金會能夠在六年後來落實"},{"start":7524.597,"end":7541.471,"text":"好這樣的具體建議政府支持政策的給力提升了動物平權的觀念學研機構的合作讓我們的有一個示範的學庫及透明學園的媒合平台一毛狗因為有這樣的保障民眾絕對有感政府的進步"},{"start":7542.572,"end":7562.971,"text":"縱使寵物貓狗的醫療和動物福利。院長您怎麼看這個議題呢?這個是講得很完整很佩服我想確實對於寵物學庫的建立是相當的重要我們一定會努力來推動那這一個部分農業部其實已經開始有一些著手"},{"start":7563.351,"end":7563.972,"text":"事經更新,刻不容緩。"},{"start":7579.805,"end":7605.695,"text":"好,這個施政更新就在本期的全區但是它是全國提供以西的重要的一個場區施政更新下游的產業鏈它是以主產以西為主以西有什麼重量它提供了高質化材料、基礎材料、高質化的材料所提供的5G材料、太陽能、光電、國防應用、電動車材、除能材料、風電材料、半導體材料在基礎的部分提供了民生工業、機能性布料"},{"start":7612.597,"end":7632.604,"text":"總共國內乙烯的總需求量平均400萬噸分別由中油跟台塑我們的產所需量都是相當的大概都200、300彼此這樣子的一個數量但是台塑是完整的自己自主提供他給他的集團但我們的中油所提供的乙烯卻要從國外來進口"},{"start":7634.344,"end":7648.174,"text":"好,那這個我們的老市卿啊,這個老市卿目前是沒有辦法面對新挑戰的,不管在ESG減碳跟產能的需求。我們中油的市卿在戴華的選區啊,在本市的選區已經運轉了40年了。"},{"start":7650.155,"end":7667.129,"text":"我們高雄歷經的氣爆、食安公安頻傳,高雄鄉親對新四季當然有所期待。這事情當中有多危險呢?原物料及產品都是亦然亦報的危險物品或毒化物。高雄居民已無法承受重大公安再度的發聲。"},{"start":7667.97,"end":7697.122,"text":"好,這新四期原版的規劃是2017年購地。2022年還平,要到2028年投產。這總共中油要赤字823億,針對31公頃。好,但是我們現在延宕了。延宕在我們勝院的版本是什麼呢?我們的這個建制的預算增加了239億,總共到106億而已。能命的期待落空,產業的需求無法滿足。"},{"start":7697.942,"end":7722.162,"text":"就算今年在行政院有真的合併的話,今年來進行環評也要6到7年後2030年才正式的投站。好,我們加速新思金是創造三贏的。本期要感謝經濟部跟中友,其實部長是非常的努力在做地方的遊說,不管是對我們高雄市政府或者是地方民意的整合,"},{"start":7722.662,"end":7750.696,"text":"所以今天戴華是帶著我臨元鄉親的名義帶著我高雄市民鄉親的期待來建言我們行政院如果我們能夠趕快的啟動新市區可能早日達成自己自主的目標我在這建設過程當中創造了四萬五千個就業機會完成之後可以增加六百個就業機會帶動地方發展最重要的能夠促進產業升級落實人員轉型導入智能化的設計與管理"},{"start":7751.876,"end":7754.259,"text":"好具體的要求行政院"},{"start":7763.84,"end":7792.779,"text":"要加速核定事情再造。院長這時候是最佳的時間點了。我3到10月也就在此時此刻各部會在以施政計劃編列概算7、8月這個主計總處就會整到各部會明年度的預算下半年10月開始我們本院就會審查明年的預算若行政院在這個第一季的時候會核定事情更新的計劃該計劃的時程也就會相比現在抱怨的時程"},{"start":7793.459,"end":7808.311,"text":"再慢兩年, 院長在您這個光榮融退的之前是否能夠送給高雄市民這樣的一個符合我們ESG近年轉型的這樣的一個大禮物呢?"},{"start":7808.311,"end":7808.331,"text":"院長"},{"start":7809.222,"end":7834.048,"text":"我們會來加速來評估然後來核定有沒有可能的因為其實這評估很久了重點還是民意的整合所以其實地方政府包括我在地居民其實是整合好的這當中中油包括我們部長這邊是花了很多的心力本席也才敢在這邊這個國會殿堂上來做這樣建議所以是不是請院長能夠"},{"start":7835.888,"end":7842.276,"text":"期待啦好不好能夠在今年在520以前至少3、4月前能夠拍板定案呢?"},{"start":7845.034,"end":7867.647,"text":"現在國發會已經通過了國發會已經9月的時候報院所以現在已經在院長基本上是在你的院本部了所以就等你裁決了我們請經濟部稍微說明一下謝謝委員那確實這個是因為計畫很大那影響對台灣的石化產業未來影響也很重要特別是乙烯委員都很清楚"},{"start":7868.067,"end":7885.678,"text":"那所以我也跟產業界做了很多次的溝通那地方就像委員也謝謝委員支持那也跟地方政府有做一些溝通那我想這一個的大計畫那確實是計畫是很大所以也謝謝國會幫我們審完那院裡面現在還有一些意見議題再跟我們請我們確認所以確認之後院裡面會走後面的程序"},{"start":7894.23,"end":7915.642,"text":"院長我們期待我們一起努力能夠在您農退的時候能給我們高雄一個大禮物那最後一點時間本席的感言這個院長這個三黨不過半在本席這個看您的質詢我只有簡單的一句話我一定要表達我對你的這個敬重之意是一個三黨不過半那可能"},{"start":7916.442,"end":7944.292,"text":"謝謝。謝謝。"},{"start":7950.579,"end":7956.743,"text":"謝謝林委員代話的質詢。接下來我們請陳委員學生質詢。謝謝主席。"},{"start":7979.12,"end":7991.943,"text":"陳院長還有各部會社長大家早安是不是請主席請陳院長備詢阿凡請陳院長備詢陳委員早恭喜當選連任院長早安最近這幾天發生驚嚇隨遇大陸漁民不幸歷難的事情那麼間接影響到馬祖的海域"},{"start":8009.102,"end":8030.659,"text":"部長您最近有沒有提到說入海警闖金門禁限制水域我們要加強取締必要時與驅離有沒有講這句話我們確實在金門是有禁限著水域那在這一個當有"},{"start":8040.943,"end":8060.154,"text":"因為事情一發生我非常關切金門的事情延伸到馬祖所以我們馬祖海巡的部分我也跟海巡隊長講我們保持警戒追逐的事情先暫時避免因為今夏的事情還沒處理好"},{"start":8061.414,"end":8086.386,"text":"所以我們在兩馬鬧元宵的時候我們的縣長、議長也到彼岸去跟大陸領導,我們在那邊氣氛都還不錯也就是金門馬祖我們關係還蠻好的雖然他們有三條海監船在我們離我們五海里的地方也在宣誓但是一切還蠻平和的那麼最近"},{"start":8087.903,"end":8113.188,"text":"我們的海巡署周署長也做了一些動作也比較低調一點我是建議就是說在法律跟人道的部分能夠把它切割畢竟人死為大大陸的珊瑚船也就是我們簡稱的白船白船是沒有牌照的他來這邊有兩個目的一個是我們金門馬祖是島礁比較多啊漁產比較多來釣魚的"},{"start":8116.437,"end":8144.001,"text":"一種是來割網的來竊盜的所以這個在海巡跟海警來講的話他們雙方在檯面下都有默契是共同打擊犯罪跟取締的目標但是海巡發生這件事情是漁船的魚尾勾到了底下據我的了解有可能是他的人掉到海裡去死亡也有可能是"},{"start":8144.434,"end":8169.455,"text":"我們海巡在執法過程中,我們的人掉在海裡面去死亡。這一種悲劇才會有的。像去年的4月在一次執勤的時候,也是落海四位,其中有三位就是我們的船員。那好在那個時候總數是三艘船,所以全部都救得起來。所以海巡同仁在執法的時候知道自己也是在搏命,所以跟委員報告"},{"start":8171.036,"end":8194.722,"text":"絕對不可能說我們的船比他小的情況下,我們的同仁會想要去撞這艘船。這個絕對不會是。我也不會幫海軍講話,也不會幫大陸講話。我們案情就是請檢察官來懷疑。不是我們樂意建造的。今天我們希望把法律的部分跟人造的部分分為兩部分來處理。"},{"start":8195.802,"end":8220.867,"text":"我們一直都是希望朝向人道撫慰的方式朝向這裡一起來談判但是整個談判的環境我方是如此但是對方我們也希望是如此所以目前在今夏海域有白船在追逐我們海巡的事情所以我們海巡在這個時候我們需要讓人賴我們戒備"},{"start":8225.399,"end":8242.655,"text":"我們一直都從事件發生以後,我也特別指示,一定是冷靜理智來進行我們常態性的巡捕。是事實上目前……不要繼續挑釁了。沒有,我們從來沒有挑釁。周組長最近做的事情很好啊。"},{"start":8243.075,"end":8269.29,"text":"我指派他去上香我特別指派他要到金門去然後請他上香他也接見了家屬他都做了事我們很希望在這個氣氛之下能夠有進展但是事實上有很多提出來希望我們去做的事情事實上真的是很難那我們很希望很希望趕快回到人道福威這件事情我想"},{"start":8270.791,"end":8288.644,"text":"我在這邊再次提醒,我們跟大陸不要為了一點點小事情,把兩岸人民的感情造成一種關懷。我瞭解,委員也幫了很多忙,縣政府跟縣議會也都幫了很多忙,我們都非常的感謝。我們也希望一座落花機,希望能夠解決"},{"start":8289.464,"end":8318.476,"text":"我們很希望在人道府衛的部分,集中到人道府衛的部分,朝向這裡我們好好的協商,然後來解決這件事情。我們有很大的誠意。盡快的把這件事情平復。我們很努力,我們很努力。那我繼續我想請教這個院長。是。飛安很重要吧。飛安?當然。飛行安全如果沒有的話,我們寧可把機場關閉嘛,對不對?是,當然。我們也不一定要飛喔。不造成人命的話,是不是?是。"},{"start":8320.175,"end":8347.138,"text":"85年4月5號我們馬祖發生空難國華航空飛機失事6個人死亡其中包含我們前任楊崔生現場也在飛機上他是逃命出去了甚至還救了一些人我們非常感佩民國86年8月10號國華航空又失事了16個人"},{"start":8348.635,"end":8377.53,"text":"全數罹難其中包含了我弟弟我弟媳婦我子女我親家母5個人16個人我們家佔了五分之一所以這種悲痛不是那種沒坐過飛機的人有些人沒坐過飛機有些人不敢坐飛機有些人懼高症不是那種那種那一些人那個痛苦能夠形容的我為什麼要去選立法委員"},{"start":8378.137,"end":8406.579,"text":"我就是為了這件事情我不停的呼籲不停的呼籲我們的機場要改善這很重要好110年5月10號我們有一架飛機因為南安機場側風他的右輪打到頭端東山寶到頭端以後那麼降落機場爆胎所幸人員安全"},{"start":8407.895,"end":8435.445,"text":"所以這一些都是全國最不安全的機場比較不安全的機場好了啦應該是馬祖倫南竿機場跟北竿機場院長您承認這件事嗎?我想南竿跟北竿機場確實是有可以均勁的地方所以下去的時候看到側風會怕是不是能夠安全降落會不會歪掉這是我們心中的痛嘛是不是所以"},{"start":8436.687,"end":8464.851,"text":"穆氏機場到目前為止因為氣候的因素天候的因素南北竿的航班經常停飛10年來一共有3625架次無法起降天候的因素側風風太大霧太大一陣霧飄來利龍航空有3593架次華信航空有32架次無法降落所以"},{"start":8465.404,"end":8492.771,"text":"北竿機場的擴建我從85年當第三屆國大代表的時候就已經提出北竿機場改善因為那時候就是我弟弟飛機失事嘛90年到98年時任縣長正好我當縣長我可以強力的推動北竿機場的改善方案103年學生要求行政院"},{"start":8493.772,"end":8519.998,"text":"要給馬祖一個安全的機場山西的機場到104年民航局提出來了馬祖北竿山西機場中建匯合方案111年行政院合定原則支持這件事情那麼112年7月通過環評的審查環境影響評估通過了到現在113年2月15號最近國發會"},{"start":8524.051,"end":8551.627,"text":"開一個會找了我們縣長、鄉長開這個會表示審查已經差不多了要送到行政院去核定去年的11月10月6號本席質詢院長的時候院長怎麼回答我我放一片影片給你看好不好我弟弟一家無口人命在北開機場失事"},{"start":8553.186,"end":8562.753,"text":"所以北竿機場最優先趕快擴增?所以北竿機場第一優先要把它做成安全機場?對,我們的目標就在這裡,已經核定了。將近200億我們已經核了,儘快把它完成,這個是我們最優先希望馬祖最先做的。然後北竿機場之外呢?"},{"start":8582.714,"end":8605.465,"text":"院長您在10月6日回答我,回答核定那現在委員的投影片也講說現在國會這已經審議完我相信院長你還沒看過還沒有我請那個報告委員因為2月15號我們大概原則上有召開會議大概原則通過了"},{"start":8606.545,"end":8625.177,"text":"那是說裡面大家有提議的所以唯一有一些感染的就是他那個就是那個機場在維修的時間現在大概預估要7年多了那大家覺得這個時間可能比較長那是不是就是請交通部這邊再跟民航局再討論一下"},{"start":8626.258,"end":8653.34,"text":"他實施的工序也好或方法也好或夜間施工等等的一些情況看能不能把那個時間再縮短。那我們大概就希望這個想好以後大概二月底就會報還給我們就盡快的付給行政院。那行政院就可以核定。郭主委,你講得很好。您在開的會裡面北開機站改建時程要多遠我告訴你齁第一期"},{"start":8654.13,"end":8669.845,"text":"要11年9個月第一期第一期幹什麼呢用力取得這個設計要4年6個月要4年6個月那時候我這一任又卸任了我又看不到了"},{"start":8671.616,"end":8697.799,"text":"第二個工期要7年3個月也就是說移動要11年9個月這是第一期的部分還有第二期第二期什麼新航站的工程需要蓋多久10年3個月一共加起來要多久要24年的2個月"},{"start":8699.164,"end":8719.255,"text":"二十四年兩個月,院長先生你幾歲?我九十幾歲我還看得到嗎?太過分了吧你們那麼多的各位首長在這邊蓋個馬祖機場要二十四年你們聽得下去嗎?"},{"start":8721.221,"end":8735.636,"text":"所以委員剛才我們才公主委才說我們希望這個交通部這邊再來檢討一下這個工期建設的期間是不是能夠跟廠商一起來考慮怎麼樣來說短這個是有必要的"},{"start":8738.218,"end":8764.744,"text":"報告委員因為第一期的部分那個部分只要機場的延長跟改善那個做好以後安全就沒有問題那第二期您剛才提到那個新的航站那個部分要配合你蓋50年100年關我什麼事啊沒有沒有就是第一期的部分那個工期7年多蓋完以後這個新的這個跑道就可以開始營運只是我們希望說那個7年3個月可不可以再縮短那你全世界機場有沒有蓋過20幾年了嘛哪一個機場是這樣蓋的"},{"start":8775.148,"end":8793.717,"text":"現在這個有一個環環相扣的關係第一個南岸機場的遷移要到豐山第一個我要炸山然後為了跑道延伸350公尺我必須填海所以現在想法是炸山填海把它做出來"},{"start":8794.639,"end":8813.625,"text":"那剛才談到青年三個月,他是因為我在跑道的這個算南端在填海的時候他會有一些這個施工,以及在某一個程度他要壓土的時候那個可能會有兩公尺高。我不聽那麼多啦。應該是講一共要多久,你跟我講就好了啦。"},{"start":8814.425,"end":8818.97,"text":"我跟委員報告我覺得用力取得還有設計的這個階段,如果縣政府跟民進黨來溝通,我想可以把4年6個月縮短"},{"start":8830.28,"end":8853.256,"text":"公期的部分就是說我們想辦法來縮短就是說因為現在剛才看到在北竿的飛機事實上不多所以他應該施工的空隙會比較多這部分我已經跟民航局討論過也就是說第一個11年9個月怎麼縮短我們現在已經有一些在討論討論了那第二個因為新航…還有細設吧對就是用地取得跟細設這個時間跟縣政府討論如果可以縮短縮短"},{"start":8861.242,"end":8865.927,"text":"合定的話就是他們剛才講二月底就送出來。那我三月初就來合定。"},{"start":8871.957,"end":8896.206,"text":"回覆給我們以後我們就會回覆行政院對我們3月份就會來核定了但是問題就是說在這有錄音的喔你要注意喔是是是剛才就講過因為他們還在等這個這個施工民航局把相關的這個時程再做一個檢討我們的目的都是一樣就是希望把這個期程可以縮短我去討論剛才六年"},{"start":8897.246,"end":8913.914,"text":"對啦我也覺得太久了不過這個工程我們也要了解說這工程確實有他的困難度那所以我們盡可能的要專家來審查看看這樣的工期這天海啊這20米啊20米的水深"},{"start":8914.694,"end":8935.747,"text":"你填海出去填350公尺嘛我跟委員報告,的確沒樣子在顧這個時間,第一個在離島一般的營造廠商不願意過去,他一定要談到這個問題所以我想說我們來檢討今天先不要浪費這個時間好不好月長你答覆我,兩個禮拜之內核定"},{"start":8937.225,"end":8966.247,"text":"三月份啊,對啊三月份,三月一號、三月三十號有30天我們收到這個你十月六號能跟我講合併的對啦,這樣就是國發會這個資料送上到行政院來,我們會盡快合併這一種事情已經辦了七八年了,八九年了會啦,我們會盡快你要慢慢拖,不是盡快,兩個禮拜好不好我們盡快努力嘛可以完成嘛"},{"start":8967.372,"end":8994.975,"text":"公主委你那邊的手續都已經差不多啦,就報行政院秘書長嘛秘書長送他一個院長看一下就差不多了嘛對啦,我們就等待相關的意見,我們會來催促好不好好,這個機長沒問題啦齁第二個我請教一下這個南北竿大橋南北竿大橋從106年齁一直扯到現在,106年,多少年了?"},{"start":8997.08,"end":9024.145,"text":"這個案子綜合規劃已經完成了喔跟機場一樣喔一直在那邊拖你們國發會的講法是什麼勒是說看南竿機場啊運量怎麼樣公主委我告訴你南竿機場是一個非常危險的機場喔他的進場那個側風那個地方他已經改善到極致了不安全的機場你不用關閉嗎不安全的機場你讓他繼續飛嗎"},{"start":9025.765,"end":9053.581,"text":"要等到出事了,縣長下臺,院長下臺,是不是這樣?向國人道歉,要搞到這樣的地步嗎?我不希望有這樣的事情發生。所以,你要坐南安高安機場的話,你這個大橋一定要坐嘛。你大橋不坐,你北安機場,你現在坐十幾年,我們那邊老闆已經快炸鍋了,蓋個機場要十幾年,我不蓋了,你可去吊飛機也沒關係。"},{"start":9054.878,"end":9082.674,"text":"我要忍受十幾年,我生意都不要做了嗎?不是震動企業,這長痛了欸。要十幾年欸。那你北竿機場做完以後呢?你北竿機場在做,北竿機場老闆一定要到南竿坐飛機。那北竿機場做完以後呢?那南竿機場要到北竿去坐飛機。那南竿機場怎麼辦?又來了,問題又來了。所以這個橋的問題一定要解決嘛。沒關係,你機場確定以後。"},{"start":9084.266,"end":9103.797,"text":"我希望喬的問題我們來討論喬的事情喬一定要做我想你行政部門不做我們立法院來推我會逼著你們做你喬一定要做所以喬的細則也很簡單誰說要做什麼600億公主委誰講的600億"},{"start":9110.309,"end":9128.175,"text":"發言委員,因為上一次院長指示說尋找第三方比較客觀的來重新評估,包括技術上還有經費上。那我們現在已經也招標了,就是國外的英國的一個工程顧問公司,全世界大概排名大概第11名。這話是你們國發會傳出來要600億。蔡總統也是誤聽你們的600億。"},{"start":9133.897,"end":9159.572,"text":"施西講288億啊,施西欸人家施西欸,一定比你專業吧。所以因為他那個,因為升到60公尺那個是我們沒有做過的,所以這個還要第三方的技術上的評估,所以我們已經有這樣的評估。施西這個單位就不要了嘛,要這個單位幹什麼?還有技術系施西也說可行啊,他說可行啊。"},{"start":9160.117,"end":9187.934,"text":"沒有說不可行啊,是你們在那邊講不可行啊,我很奇怪咧。你們找司機開了會了嗎?也沒有啊。這個事情我們到交通委員會再討論。還有高雄航線,高雄航線我在選舉期間啊,民進黨黨部主委一直講說,高雄航線他去連署啊,連署7000個人,連署8萬人也沒用啊。"},{"start":9188.53,"end":9197.358,"text":"航空公司飛不飛很重要啊。例如航空不飛,國華、國慶,哇你叫他飛嘛,不打。"},{"start":9198.567,"end":9227.638,"text":"你能不能找民航局我上次已經講過了民航局召集嘛用包機的方式用其他的方式去處理嘛你可以處理嗎現在就是用這個方向就是說馬祖高雄的航線在94年斷掉那當時就是運量不足運量怎麼不足呢我負責嘛當時當時的那個當時那現在可以啦然後現在民航局事實上除了立龍以外也找了像華系我們除了老百姓除了觀光客阿兵哥的占比在南部是"},{"start":9230.582,"end":9245.037,"text":"欸50%欸還不止欸阿平哥也是回家的路啊講了老半天你們也聽不下去我叫了老半天我們跟航空公司做過討論啦齁他們是完全沒有意願是民進黨民進黨黨部方向搞錯了嘛現在先用包機先用包機"},{"start":9246.348,"end":9274.853,"text":"你們能不能找一下嗎?好不好?包機的方式我想跟縣政府這邊,聯鄉縣政府來討論一下怎麼樣做一些這個獎勵的措施來做,這個可能比較可行。等包機有印量以後在這邊恢復定期航線。我要問一下我們院長,院長對部立院的手法,醫療系統。在選舉期間,我們的聯鄉縣黨部主委,你問先生,我很謝謝他。"},{"start":9276.104,"end":9304.676,"text":"他都為了王必勝次長,同意馬祖改為部立院,您看法如何?部立院只是換個招牌,縣立兩個字改為部立就好了嗎?不是這樣齁?人員組織編制醫藥病房,是不是?什麼神經外科、神經內科,這些都要準備了,人員要增加"},{"start":9305.731,"end":9332.001,"text":"部長你回答我好了那有關於部立院就是說有沒有答應?市長有沒有答應?目前的話是沒有啦沒有?沒有就騙人囉沒有,那個因為縣政府那邊是不是很贊成主要是地方我們縣政府的兩個院長,也就是兩個縣長啊是院長的學生啊,劉貞映啊對,貞映"},{"start":9333.646,"end":9351.077,"text":"他們覺得我們地方很小嘛,是不是?金門跟澎湖實施的不是很順暢。馬魯這個地方行之有年啊,非常的好。不錯啊。李衛先生跑去講說民進黨王必勝次長答應改為部立院,有沒有這回事?"},{"start":9352.399,"end":9368.77,"text":"並沒有直接說所謂的答應改為不立,而是說這一個部分的話必須還要再研議所以我們在1月的時候,那部裡面有派人過去縣政府跟縣長談過這個事情那目前的話沒有談過,縣長有談過會跟我講"},{"start":9371.453,"end":9396.759,"text":"我們會長如果有談過一定會告訴我1月17那有去拜訪那個黃碧珍部長嗎?應該是我要問的是王市長,王市長有沒有答應?這沒有沒關係,我一個問完就問今天顧問來我,我一定查個血絡指數好請你回去我要問我們國防部部長邱部長還有一點時間喔會長是"},{"start":9401.226,"end":9426.18,"text":"他的靶場設在我們的行政中心啊長照已經蓋好了醫院蓋好了國中蓋好了國小蓋好了在中間打靶槍打來打去院長你聽得進去嗎所以這個事情我有問過邱部長邱部長的問題在哪裡你知道嗎待拆待建我說清朝的靶場現在是民國啦現代化啦"},{"start":9430.745,"end":9456.355,"text":"那個是那個地推土地推一推有沒有弄個靶子啊就從那啪打過去是這樣打法的不是像現在現在那個警察你看在室內都可以打打了以後那個靶子自動彈回來看看有沒有打中靶心有沒有打中部長是不是這樣你國防部沒錢你也講嘛行政院主席長也在吧你另外能不能撥點錢啊"},{"start":9458.36,"end":9484.981,"text":"國防部預算很緊湊我知道啊他們裡面那個馬路啊我當縣長還是我幫他們鋪的我鋪了很多條啦國防部哪有錢鋪馬路咧沒有錢鋪嘛所以他這個靶場說代遷代鑒我們縣政府窮的你也知道一個是澎湖一個是馬祖金門有個酒廠在那個地方你說靶場搬就搬有什麼困難啊"},{"start":9485.97,"end":9494.925,"text":"他那個酒多賣兩瓶就有了馬祖沒有啊你知道只有扣我們公務人員薪水拿去做保產啊所以邱部長說沒辦法後來答應我說兩年"},{"start":9499.023,"end":9522.109,"text":"兩年到現在你們沒動靜欸,我們憲法幫你都預定好了沒有?報告委員我跟您說明好不好,我知道委員幾個會期當中提到靶場的問題,事實上我們也很積極,我們也編組到三個點去看,我想現在政府也很清楚,有封山、有板山、還有個大臥。這幾個地方經過評估以後,我們選那個點裡面有些困難,我們好像3月5號還要再開會嘛。"},{"start":9523.669,"end":9545.837,"text":"我跟我們同仁交代,我們針對問題不要讓人家覺得我們在拖,沒有在拖,一直在積極運作。但剛剛委員已經點出幾個問題來,我覺得這個在後面都可以談,都可以談。那幾個點選擇了以後,有些問題可能要麻煩縣政府要先處理完,才能夠走下一步。都處理了,甚至像你們現在,你們要代菜代鍵。"},{"start":9546.618,"end":9564.838,"text":"就四個字而已?代謝也是問題之一啦。我們要處理好啊。軍方也知道在什麼地方啦。軍方也不敢講話。大隊怎麼敢講話呢?一定不會不敢講話。不是不敢講話,因為有一些問題。那你們現在在代謝、再見四個字。代謝、再見這個問題又困在哪裡啦?邱部長?"},{"start":9565.776,"end":9565.816,"text":"拜託部長"},{"start":9594.656,"end":9604.719,"text":"你這個事情注意一下,不要為了這個事情影響到軍民的感情嘛,是不是?長照在那裡,學校在那裡,你每天那個子彈砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰�"},{"start":9621.67,"end":9649.911,"text":"部隊沒肉吃沒肉吃關我現在我什麼事啊因為你們那個副食供應中心跟台灣的肉商有簽約嘛你的肉一定要跟他買嘛我們馬祖地區的肉你不能買啊那問題又出來了你們有跟那個航商啊開船的啊公司有簽約嘛他船正好壞掉了所以肉也沒辦法送啊船也沒辦法開所以沒肉吃"},{"start":9651.019,"end":9659.386,"text":"一扯扯到縣政府說你們那個馬祖立法委員混蛋阿明哥沒飯吃沒肉吃跟我們什麼關係啊"},{"start":9660.559,"end":9687.771,"text":"我跟委員不會這樣,那個我跟委員說明一下,我們也在強化,怎麼樣強化?一個他原本的儲存量我們把給增加天賦。搞得陸軍司令還要去道歉。是,所以第二個就是我們現在那個這個復共站雖然沒有,但他的採購在外離島採購一切有,他部隊長自己做主就可以,我們沒有很大的限制。部長現在兵力也少了嘛,你跟民間去買就好了嘛。"},{"start":9688.731,"end":9710.96,"text":"讓他們吃一點生鮮的活豬肉好不好?不要吃青草那種冰得硬梆梆的冰得好幾年來熱欸那個魚都已經變成化石了化石用油炸一炸放點辣椒這些阿兵哥也是我們的子弟嘛好不好?有機會我請你吃一下青草的化石的帶魚給你吃好不好?"},{"start":9711.833,"end":9738.447,"text":"你吃吃看你就知道了我吃過我在馬祖服務過我知道部長你這個你注意一下好不好是好還最近一次部長跟主席黨請回我們教育部教育部勒最近發生什麼事啊崔世功有沒有啦五個變成兩個兩個變成勒兩個人力沒辦法炒菜啊好啦我們馬祖四鄉五島離島啊"},{"start":9740.54,"end":9770.196,"text":"小孩子沒飯吃了沒飯吃以後外面叫賣的什麼攤販賣香腸打香腸一堆就在校門口這一下生意搞好了學生家長就反彈不過那天在現場部長也跟我抱歉了部長馬上把這問題解決了63萬給了200多萬部長以後這個事情怎麼發現的又是民進黨的連江縣黨部又在罵我了說你這個立委怎麼搞的怎麼搞的"},{"start":9770.703,"end":9794.225,"text":"現在政府跟我什麼關係啊?這是你民進黨的單位啊?你的教育部啊?你的國立高中啊?關我們什麼事啊?部長你有注意一下好不好?學校的事情。這個我要謝謝委員,因為委員在217號當地了解這個情形,也召開那個很快的會議。還有船舶,船舶1.8公尺改為2公尺好不好?你注意一下。"},{"start":9808.723,"end":9812.107,"text":"謝謝陳委員學生的質詢。接下來我們請張委員齊凱質詢。"},{"start":9877.146,"end":9904.532,"text":"謝謝韓院長請陳院長麻煩請陳院長備詢張委員長恭喜張委員當選立委院長不曉得是不是該恭喜你今天最新的新聞說賴清德總統當選人問他的幕僚說想把你留下來這回事你本來要回中研院的你會有考慮520之後"},{"start":9906.387,"end":9934.1,"text":"繼續留下來當行政院長嗎?您也跟我很熟啦,那個學術研究一向是我的最愛。我是會要回到中央研究院從事我的學術研究。什麼狀況下有可能會留下來?沒有任何可能嗎?就是你確定是要回中研院?當然。包括賴清德來拜託你都不會留下來?我想對我來說我已經離開學術一段時間,我應該回去。"},{"start":9935.228,"end":9957.337,"text":"新聞裡面提到說可能拜託蔡英文蔡總統開口所以包括蔡英文蔡總統開口你都不會在520之後由現在當行政院長當時蔡總統請我當邀請我當行政院長的時候就是講好到520陪他一起同進退OK那我們就看看後續的這個狀況是怎麼樣那我們進入我們這個總諮詢院長還記得這一幕嗎記得謝謝你"},{"start":9965.467,"end":9989.615,"text":"這是你那時候當副總統的時候我邀請你到我的節目新聞追追追是我們那時候在討論這個年金改革那今天為什麼要有這一幕呢?因為那時候的陳建仁被稱為溫暖的大人哥我希望我現在是要溫暖而且要溝通而且要傾聽可是可是"},{"start":9991.121,"end":10003.788,"text":"院長你發現最近油電雙漲對人民的衝擊是很大的嗎?你會不會擔心溫暖的大人哥變成是一個漲價的院長?這會不會是你最後的歷史定位?"},{"start":10004.434,"end":10033.758,"text":"我想我不會是站這樣的院長我一向是願意傾聽願意來溝通願意協調但是我覺得如果在上個禮拜有些委員講的實在是不符合常理的時候我也應該要表達我個人對於這些不符合這一個特別是科學證據的一些回應我覺得科學是不容打著扣的啦"},{"start":10037,"end":10049.872,"text":"院長你的意思是水跟電是確定是要漲了嗎?你的任內520之前你要包括你的歷史定位變成是漲價的院長"},{"start":10051.833,"end":10077.762,"text":"你都一定要帶著崗位往前衝嗎?我想電費的部分其實是還蠻明確的就是說因為我們俄烏戰爭的關係那所有的燃料都上升所以現在台電是賣一度電就賠一度電在這樣的一個情況下我想為了要確保我們的經濟成長為了確保我們民生用電無虞"},{"start":10078.402,"end":10079.783,"text":"抱歉我提醒一下"},{"start":10107.072,"end":10135.254,"text":"現在是漲電價的好時機嗎?主席總署上個禮拜剛剛宣布我們的實質的總薪資創11年來收穫最大民間現在反對的聲音非常的大特別是會帶動物價你有沒有考慮過這個事情?我想我們也有做過評估如果政府有這一個挹注再加上漲部分的電價的話這樣台電才能夠比較有"},{"start":10138.755,"end":10164.899,"text":"所以我們在這一個部分還是請我們電價審議委員會來就全盤的情況來做評估我先提醒你一件事情好不好2012年的時候馬英九那時候提了油電雙漲你應該有印象我提醒你是有兩個因素第一個他在非洲訪問記者問他的時候他特別講"},{"start":10166.196,"end":10185.092,"text":"帶著鋼盔也要往前衝。他的心境看起來跟你是有點像的。第一個我更要提醒你馬英九從非洲回來以後他發現完全不對了不只民調掉到13%他上他是有做了某些改進的包括他去跟民間電廠談那個利息利率本來是8%都降到2%了"},{"start":10185.899,"end":10200.03,"text":"可是因為物價已經上去了,民念很深,你要不要好好再思考一下。這個部分我們會讓經濟部還有我們電價的審議委員會來討論。我看你這幾天你的講話看起來是要漲,而且幅度是不小。那我要提醒一個點,台電虧損,台電以前是經濟模。"},{"start":10213.277,"end":10223.624,"text":"是誰把他搞壞了?臺電現在這個虧損要人民來補嗎?要剝人民幾層皮呢?是不是應該回過頭先去把臺電的虧損原因把弄清楚,不是急著要漲價?"},{"start":10225.005,"end":10242.551,"text":"其實我們這個都有做非常詳細的在做評估那二五戰到現在如果委員我相信我也非常清楚很多歐美國家他們的這個電費的帳的幅度是非常非常高那台電一直吸收這個兩三年來的這個電費"},{"start":10244.512,"end":10247.434,"text":"你一直在強調戰爭跟國際因素造成的影響第二條線就是你一直在強調的"},{"start":10274.642,"end":10288.302,"text":"燃料成本對不對這是你們臺電跟經濟部的決算書裡面的資料燃料成本在什麼時候開始往下走110年是不是慢慢就往下走了"},{"start":10289.702,"end":10310.033,"text":"沒有其實整個我們的看起來是2022、2023的燃料成本其實是差不多的那主要是在2022的時候其實中油還有吸收請看這個趨勢圖台電有兩個很重要支出一個是燃料成本一個就是買電對不對第二條線中間這個黃色的線在"},{"start":10314.571,"end":10342.251,"text":"民國100年到110年確實是往上走的一個最高峰可是在110年的時候他就停住了往下走囉不是像你講的一直在往上走這是第一個點第二點我跟他請教你的當你的燃料成本往下降特別是燃煤特別是燃煤國際的燃煤已經往下掉的時候下面你台電去買電是不是應該跟著往下降"},{"start":10342.95,"end":10365.344,"text":"因為他也用到天然氣用到煤是不是這樣沒有錯但是因為我們有天然氣跟這個燃煤兩個所以我們整個看2022跟2023那2022其實前半年的天然氣其實還沒有中油沒有完全反應給台電所以如果就台電的購電的成本來講的話2022跟2023是差不多的"},{"start":10369.446,"end":10388.725,"text":"但是這裡講的4千多,我的理解應該是6千億左右。部長抱歉,這是你們的結算書喔。我要提醒一個點,這個是非常清楚的。當燃料成本往下,慢慢往下掉的時候,你們會發現非常奇怪,為什麼台電去買電是往上走的?"},{"start":10390.126,"end":10400.255,"text":"為什麼我們如果沒有錯台電的買電的部分當然有一部分是買綠電是買綠電那我買綠電呢從2022的500多億到2023年的900億是沒有錯有增加"},{"start":10407.26,"end":10429.917,"text":"但是發展綠電也是臺灣一定要去走的路那前半段前面這幾年呢臺灣就綠電的環境用等購費率等等來讓這個整個綠色的產業能夠發展起來那現在慢慢的特別委員也知道離岸風電已經全部都是直接用民間來購電了那太陽光電呢"},{"start":10431.878,"end":10461.11,"text":"所以部長你剛才回答就印證了兩件事情第一個你每次都講國際因素事實上這個不是那麼重要的對不對第二個更重要當他影響沒有那麼大的時候往下掉的時候為什麼要往上走是買了太多甚至是太貴的電我給你看一個數目字好不好"},{"start":10462.483,"end":10462.843,"text":"上個禮拜院長一直搖頭上個禮拜"},{"start":10491.267,"end":10506.484,"text":"臺南的八十八槍光電這個案子那個主嫌昂貴才判了10年。前兩年光是跟光電有關的至少起訴了60件喔。所以他有兩個問題一個是為什麼那麼好賺跟台電台電虧損那麼多還要拿那麼多錢去補。"},{"start":10508.885,"end":10528.989,"text":"那我們的錢去補可是只要臺電去買的都買的那麼貴而且發生幣安安。欸跟委員報告齁事實上那個短過匯率齁其實裡面有非常多的專家我們用非常精確的成本來算那當然他有一點利潤但是你不能說他是暴利那臺電自己發的太陽能力成本比較低因為"},{"start":10529.549,"end":10555.64,"text":"因為臺電是用自己的土地來做太陽能的這個我了解可是會不會太高了為什麼會發生弊案為什麼一段時間你就會出現很多光電的這個是不是應該院長我們現在要賬人民的錢要賬電價結果人民現在看到的是什麼你臺電去買的電是太貴了你看看最近的新聞光是一個過年光電的那些公司發了年終賬金他的紅利"},{"start":10558.3,"end":10562.869,"text":"欸當台電這麼辛苦的時候台電以前是一個很好的公司體質很好的公司是個經濟模欸"},{"start":10564.465,"end":10568.088,"text":"我們當然在所有的電價審議委員會在討論的過程當中我們當然也會就臺電的這個支出的部分包括購電的部分包括發電的部分做同盤的檢討"},{"start":10593.567,"end":10612.493,"text":"讓這個審議委員會來做了解但是剛才講的這些風力也好太陽能也好這個發電出來的東西都是因為有等受這個電價的關係才會有比較高那當時會有這樣的決定也是為了要讓國外的電廠還有國內的電廠願意來投資這個綠電的發展謝謝院長另外我再補充一下就是說實際上這個綠電"},{"start":10621.116,"end":10623.658,"text":"院長跟部長你們有一個真相沒有跟我們前名講沒有跟我們台灣人民講第一個"},{"start":10648.502,"end":10668.185,"text":"最近的這個價格還是往上走對不對買綠電的錢現在進入高峰期喔所以你明年不只今年要錢有虧損明年後年大後年至少未來5年在再生能源這一塊虧損會更大對不對這是第一個點第二個你們到目前沒有看到你們解決方案阿"},{"start":10669.039,"end":10685.246,"text":"你們現在談的是什麼2025要增加到20%那現在這個時間現在才18 9.9虧損已經這麼大你們要跟人民講清楚人民這是給了你錢漲了定價或者給你補貼之後未來5年漏洞會更大要不要跟人民講清楚"},{"start":10686.026,"end":10708.291,"text":"欸事實上發展再生能源臺灣其實已經走得很慢了那發展再生能源的時候那相關的這個部分臺灣當然要去支持這個再生能源的產業但是我剛才講了現在已經越來越多都已經直接賣給民間的企業不是用等購費率的部分所以這個部分呢臺電"},{"start":10709.731,"end":10735.986,"text":"我們在維持的時候穩定但是也會一直讓他稀釋出去賣民間所以我想委員對不應該是說再生能源要走回頭路啦這個還是台灣要走了台灣已經是比較慢了再生能源院長跟部長講我完全贊成我們支持再生能源可是我們反對買太貴給太多錢特別是在台電虧損這麼嚴重的時候第二個弊端頻傳所以我們很明確的要求"},{"start":10736.943,"end":10737.724,"text":"我們再看臺電最主要是兩個一個是外面買電對不對"},{"start":10764.38,"end":10790.882,"text":"另外一個看買了什麼電,我們再看民間電廠。民間電廠是第一天會議做總統的時候,本來要把台電要把它民營化。那後來為什麼去買電,包括9家民營電廠?就是為了效率,為了把價格降低嗎?結果你從這條線看出來,我們買的電都還是太貴。要給一定的利潤,業界認為有多少利潤是合理的?10%以內。可是我們買的都太貴,這是一個點。第二個,請大家看一下這個表。院長,看這個表。"},{"start":10793.646,"end":10818.651,"text":"臺電本身也用燃煤他一度是多少錢3.57到了112年的時候降到3.43臺電的燃煤成本是降低的可是臺電去跟民間的業者買電的時候跟民間電廠買電的時候3.69不只沒有降為什麼攀升到4.15"},{"start":10822.152,"end":10832.185,"text":"我們自己的燃料也降了,國際的趨勢也是降了,臺電自己自發的成本也是降了。請跟我說,請跟我講清楚,為什麼我們去跟民間電廠買的,反而是往上走。"},{"start":10833.323,"end":10859.24,"text":"跟委員報告這個其實都有非常專業的算計那我們也不會說這個都莫名其妙就給民間這個不應該給的這個費用但是民間該有的利潤是有可是絕對不會無緣無故給他增加那這個都有很細緻的一個算法那所以相關的怎麼算那相關的情形如果委員要我們也可以提供委員相關的"},{"start":10865.224,"end":10885.337,"text":"委員我想這個怎麼樣去算出來這個價錢經濟部一定有一套的這個的算法那今天的時間的關係我們請經濟部在質詢完以後在大的環境裡面燃煤再往下掉對不對第二個你如果就台電自己發電跟去買的這很簡單的一個比較啊"},{"start":10886.097,"end":10905.345,"text":"對,但是剛才講過,我們要給...其實我們都很清楚嘛,委員你不要還清楚,當我們的發電量很大的跟民間發電量小的時候,那個成本其實不完全一樣嘛,我們...對嘛,這個我想我們都可以了解,所以臺電的發電的價錢,"},{"start":10908.046,"end":10908.987,"text":"我到委員會我還是進一步要再推這個案"},{"start":10937.822,"end":10947.852,"text":"公開的一定都會提供給委員對那我們再看另外一個下一張院長你看所有的發電裡面哪個最便宜"},{"start":10951.653,"end":10952.833,"text":"但是不能夠再留子孫"},{"start":10972.218,"end":10989.824,"text":"我還把你試算了一下,因為你一直在發展再生能源,我說再生能源我們是支持的,可是不要發生弊案,不要買太貴,這是一個最重要的原則。那相對的,既然有很便宜的電,核能一度電成本才1.39,你現在不是在講虧損嗎?"},{"start":10991.448,"end":11009.669,"text":"你如果用核能的話你可以賺錢欸每發一度核能的電你是賺錢的那你為什麼要把它停下來呢我再幫你試算一個更恐怖的數字好不好這段時間你去買再生能源的如果用最便宜的核能計算都花了582億"},{"start":11012.622,"end":11041.954,"text":"那你現在你還要把核電慢慢還要,今年核三廠可能就要退,就要除以了對不對?委員就表示明年我覺得院長跟部長你們有責任跟民眾講清楚,臺電不只是去年虧損民眾,今年虧損民眾在你們能源政策之下,明年後年大後年至少或未來的五年,因為核能的這個變成零,虧損會越來越大怎麼辦?這真相要跟臺灣人民講清楚吧?好"},{"start":11042.745,"end":11059.164,"text":"委員那個和一和二和三當時在建設的時候就已經講好說他的服役期間是有多長那現在我們會讓他除役就是因為時間已經到了嘛40年到了嘛所以我們就是除役這是很早以前就訂定下來的這個規定那"},{"start":11061.546,"end":11077.897,"text":"委員講的是說好那核能很好可是這裡面剛才講的核廢料的處理是未來的成本還有廚藝是成本很高另外一個很重要的就是說在未來的這幾年如果我們貴黨有提到說核能要研議"},{"start":11078.797,"end":11094.029,"text":"那如果何能要研議即使要研議的話不是說我今天到期的時候我說研議就可以繼續發電不可以喔還需要有2到4年的時間才能夠來繼續發電這是按照這個安全的規定嘛"},{"start":11094.489,"end":11108.194,"text":"所以而且核能現在佔台灣的發電的這個佔比是相當的低的所以他對電價的影響度還是沒有我們所謂的電這個燃氣燃煤的這個影響因為他佔了90%"},{"start":11110.615,"end":11136.482,"text":"所以這樣子可以看起來的話,如果整個電價未來的結構都一定是受到國際燃料的影響。院長你聽過一句話吧,錯誤的政策比貪污更恐怖、更可怕。我不能講說你今天完全是錯誤的,可是至少遠征征的,我覺得院長跟部長今天有責任,要跟我們台灣的民眾講清楚。因為你現在要漲電價,人民已經被你包好幾層皮了,因為現在如果物價漲、電價又漲,"},{"start":11139.409,"end":11166.182,"text":"很多人是很苦的,今天院長站在上面,院長的名言是什麼?莫忘世上苦人頭,對不對?找完電架之後特別是民生又更苦,就是因為大家很苦的同時你們要仗那你們我剛講過了,你要跟民間電廠買的要透明公開,對不對?第二個跟太陽能跟再生能源你也是要清楚,第三個明明有一個"},{"start":11167.352,"end":11167.552,"text":"可以省錢"},{"start":11188.955,"end":11205.002,"text":"現在核能廠廚藝是依法規定的嘛你40年到來你就是要廚藝嘛那你現在如果說好假設就像您講的一樣就是說不廚藝要研藝的話那我們是不是要有研藝的法律的依據嘛對不對"},{"start":11205.942,"end":11212.327,"text":"提了以後我還是要強調那個核安的部分就是說你一個到了40年以後他要開始去繼續發電是需要有安全檢查國外的經驗大概都是2到5年的時間大部分都是5年"},{"start":11232.023,"end":11255.422,"text":"那所以為什麼要5年前就要申請研議嘛可是5年前申請研議的時間就是為了要這5年的期間來做安全檢查讓他截止那一天你講的依法這個當然一定不會違背嘛所以包括國民黨包括民眾黨都已經提案子了嘛對不對這個我們要共同努力我今天的執行重點是窟窿這麼大你們要跟大家講"},{"start":11255.942,"end":11258.164,"text":"我們一定會跟在考量所有的電價的時候跟以前齁"},{"start":11272.414,"end":11297.212,"text":"你講的前總統在調電價的時候是不一樣的因為我們看歷次你看我們調建價的時候都會考慮到民生用電大小商店的用電還有不同產業用電還有產業是在上升的這個狀況好的還是下降的我們都會有很仔細的來這樣的決定電價的調整原因就是讓產業能夠繼續永續讓民生不會受到影響"},{"start":11300.134,"end":11325.907,"text":"這就是我們在調電價的時候希望我們的審議委員會做很精緻的調整這是我們會努力來做委員你講的說要說清楚讓我們賣誰不知道這一定要大家一定要了解要不然的話我們是一定要帶慷慨但是我們就是說要好好的跟大家說理為什麼要這樣調說理清楚了大家也可以說共體時間這是我們要努力的"},{"start":11326.887,"end":11355.603,"text":"所以部長跟院長我提了三個可以讓電價不見得要漲的方案你們聽完之後到底有沒有可能這一次的要嘛就不要漲要嘛的話至少讓民生不要漲有沒有可能性如果你照我剛剛那個改革其實有很多錢是可以省下來的啊應該從改革做起把成本把它降低啊不是急著要去讓人民被撥老幾層皮啊有沒有可能民生不要330度以下不要漲這可能性存不存在"},{"start":11356.804,"end":11370.679,"text":"這個要專家委員會去評估啦,我們現在講齁,我們若沒數字齁,直接用嘴講齁,這樣不夠苛刻啦。苛刻的齁,比較有基礎的講法,就是講要有重大懲罰。你對民生用電,"},{"start":11378.798,"end":11398.403,"text":"第一個我們當然第一個確實臺電的這樣的虧損還是需要政府的裁員的益助。第二個那個店家我們會召開小組來討論。那現在就是對民生的用電確實我們很久很久都沒有帳。已經20年所以你這次如果調的為什麼我剛剛講會被帳下廉的。20年沒有人敢調的。"},{"start":11402.004,"end":11427.491,"text":"現在的物價上漲又這麼嚴重。現在的政府要去調它嗎?相關的這個惡霧戰爭之後整個電價的成本跟在過往的電價成本早期電價成本可能兩塊兩塊多一點但是現在電價的成本其實是差不多四塊左右那這個對我們已經長期因為體恤這個比較這個一般的民眾所以很久很久都沒有賬那所以這個我們會通盤去檢討"},{"start":11429.972,"end":11442.802,"text":"所以通盤檢討是不仗可能性的存在嗎?不仗的可能性是不是存在?我們會通盤來看這個相關的情形。委員你講的那是一個方案,這個方案如何比較好當然要有措辭,這措辭要有討論,讓專家來討論可能比較適合"},{"start":11455.131,"end":11477.749,"text":"而不是我們今天在這裡也沒有數據的依據來做但是我們我想在這裡要講我們在調整電價的這個過程當中一定會考慮到怎麼樣讓這一個民生用電的影響最小而且不要影響到物價的上升而且我們實際上也主計總署有在估算說這個電價調漲"},{"start":11481.071,"end":11495.08,"text":"謝謝院長,請記得把剛剛要的資料一個禮拜內給我,跟民間電廠沒買太貴了。第二個閉案怎麼去去除,跟整個公開透明。那我再問你一個,我再請教一個跟經濟發展很有關係的,台積電要繞腳到嘉義,台積電要繞腳到嘉義。"},{"start":11500.126,"end":11523.16,"text":"到底會不會跳票?之前賴清德總統當選人到嘉義的時候,他是說要潛力去促成。你們兩位會幫忙嗎?我想台積電到嘉義這件事情,我們會積極來努力。目前也已經有我們相關的部會或者是相關的就是我們副院長也有去協調。這個部分我們樂觀其成。"},{"start":11528.025,"end":11530.127,"text":"我們事實上對台積電在臺灣包括這個先進的製程包括先進的封裝等等我們都會讓他在臺灣落腳"},{"start":11542.918,"end":11571.038,"text":"那這個部分有時候相關的投資案會有需要廠商來宣布比較好但是對政府來講他在哪裡是合適做什麼產業我們都會跟產業界做詳細的溝通現在看起來照他園區的這個規定先進的風車廠是可以的所以我們全力爭取當然我知道主委有提到可能一寸經驗下可能有困難可是環評我們是會努力那謝謝院長跟這個部長的這個支持另外我再問一個嘉義的事情"},{"start":11571.724,"end":11582.755,"text":"現在一直在爭取一個輕軌,為高鐵太保站一枚加機器的這次。他那個報告已經到那個院長那邊嘛。院長、行政院這邊會支持這個輕軌嗎?他的載量已經從ROD那個是過的對不對?超過5萬人了。"},{"start":11587.594,"end":11596.179,"text":"國產只要講你支持就好了,你不用再講了。我們已經有撥了1290萬,請他做可行性的。所以基本上未來轉輕軌,我們支持這個方向。請嘉義市政府趕快提出這個報告。"},{"start":11613.008,"end":11616.709,"text":"請問一下,嘉義市鐵路高架化那筆錢,陳水扁總統到了嘉義市親親手手跟我們說的那38億是?"},{"start":11627.13,"end":11633.274,"text":"陳水扁總統那個時候答應的因為時代的變遷再加上我們已經有很多不同的在蓋這個高價化的時候都有新的規範所以這個部分我請部長說明一下"},{"start":11656.83,"end":11679.202,"text":"現在大概這樣,原來38億這個也是經過跟嘉義市政府討論的結果那現在多了10億齁我們現在初步是因為嘉義的財政負擔他原來從這個3級現在降回4級所以一個是補86%一個補84%所以我們現在初步就是因為總的預算是比較高國產理事會幫忙多少?就是2%可以討論現在2%多2%可以討論所以2%嗎?能不能再補出多一點?"},{"start":11685.986,"end":11688.391,"text":"現在因為我們必須全國有一樣的規則這是全國性的規定48.2億"},{"start":11720.355,"end":11734,"text":"謝謝張委員、齊凱的質詢。謝謝陳院長。報告院會上午質詢到此為止。本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案,就不進行臨時提案之處理。下午2點30分繼續開會,進行質詢。現在休息。謝謝。"},{"start":21279.087,"end":21280.384,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":21619.059,"end":21620.361,"text":"報告院會現在我們繼續開會。接下來我們請許委員複會質詢。"},{"start":21646.741,"end":21671.556,"text":"謝謝院長,我們有請我們行政院長跟我們的交通部武漢部長麻煩請陳院長備詢交通部報告部委員,武漢恭喜你當選立法委員,真是恭喜謝謝院長本期來自國進之南的屏東,那我想院長跟部長也常常到屏東來洽公"},{"start":21674.77,"end":21701.87,"text":"請教院長跟部長所以從不管從我們的潘賢縣長到我們的周春美縣長那我想我們長期在針對我們屏東的交通建設的這一塊真的要請我們行政院跟交通部要搭理的幫忙啦尤其我想我們屏東人不應該是騎尾保水那我想我們提出的交通品權"},{"start":21702.466,"end":21719.667,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":21719.929,"end":21733.459,"text":"我們要發展所謂的區域的經濟發展那區域的經濟發展最重要的要件最要改革的就是交通的問題我想這個院長應該是認同的因為如果交通不解決會連帶影響到我們整個經濟也好農業的發展也好甚至我們醫療的問題那所以本市這邊有幾項議題要請我們的院長跟部長來做一個答覆"},{"start":21746.048,"end":21772.754,"text":"那我想未來也希望我們的行政院跟交通部還有我們的屏東縣政府我們共同為了屏東的建設來共同的來努力那首先請教我們的院長我們的屏南快速道路這條我們鄉村叫做九名路那我想這一條屏南快速道路交通部在去年底已經將可行性評估已經報到院裡面審查那請教院長"},{"start":21773.339,"end":21800.541,"text":"我們相關計畫的一個期程目前進度如何?現在就是因為可行性評估已經送到院方來現在我們請這一個國發會來做這個審議的工作那如果可行性評估核定以後呢就會繼續接著辦綜合規劃還有環評跟施工的作業那順利的話呢可能可以在這一個126年的時候完工通車啦"},{"start":21801.884,"end":21814.621,"text":"委員長每次本席聽到這個交通規劃的時間跟完工的時間都要很等這聽下去真的是不是本席的問題是我們鄉親那個期待值真的會覺得說"},{"start":21816.964,"end":21830.374,"text":"為什麼我們總是屏東要一條交通建設這麼樣的困難?委員報告啦,實際上這個米蘭要做綜合規劃環評含施工,這部份有我們中央行政院來合作,看能不能把它的期程能不能把它縮減。但是當然現在他們在整個的情形就是按照過去,"},{"start":21839.701,"end":21844.185,"text":"本席是希望說是不是院長可以做一個採詢,請交通部跟我們相關的針對環評期程可以同步進行嗎?"},{"start":21859.841,"end":21862.704,"text":"其實國發會也好,還是交通部也好,他們都有主動的這個施政。是,報告委員因為現在那個"},{"start":21875.998,"end":21880.801,"text":"我再請教一下主委跟部長這邊我們有沒有可能採分段施工分段進行的方式加快期產來進行?"},{"start":21905.363,"end":21922.49,"text":"我們第一階段到香港第二階段到恆春那香港的部分就是我們現在第一階段先積極來進行因為那邊就是台九跟台一的分界而且是比較塞的路段那剛才談到就是說從現在開始6年大概做二階環評跟這個綜合規劃"},{"start":21925.411,"end":21946.41,"text":"當然就是它裡面也有談到也有算到這二階環評的時間你知道它的環評的這個敏感度可能要我們要去突破那另外就是有用地取得兩年真正它施工期只有五年而已啦前陣子都是那個前置座位但是剛剛院長有特別提到就是我們能縮短就盡量把它縮短"},{"start":21950.223,"end":21970.719,"text":"這個部長我想是這樣子,當然就是就我們鄉親的期待值來講,每個人都聽到這個環評的時間也好,還是這個施工的期待值也好,真的大家聽了都猶豫,所以這個要特別拜託我們部裡面,是不是跟我們的院長這邊能夠請我們相關部會能夠加快速度,這真的一定是要,"},{"start":21971.343,"end":21993.864,"text":"我們的救命路要拜託院長這邊要大力的幫忙我們會盡全力讓各部會一起來努力好那我想這個部分再麻煩這個時間點能不要聽到126年真的是很久很久了好那第二個部分我要請教我們針對表雄捷運延伸到我們屏東的部分那我想這一條我們在"},{"start":21996.48,"end":22017.078,"text":"平東鄉親也期待20年了,那我們目前有規劃了幾條的路線,那我想這幾條的路線110年7月份我們交通部這邊有一部分的部分有做核備,那我想目前也請部長說明一下我們目前我們小港、東港、林邊線還有其他路線目前的進度。"},{"start":22019.457,"end":22045.042,"text":"目前就是高雄紅線現在延伸到臨沿我們現在從臨沿到大鵬灣然後繼續往東港這邊來走目前是在做可行性因為過去有一段時間是在談紅線的延伸但是後來在縣政府跟市政府討論是覺得說那一段是另外一個系統"},{"start":22046.324,"end":22074.896,"text":"所以未來會在臨沿有一個轉層但是轉層在臺北我也知道很方便同業臺是很方便所以也沒什麼感覺那目前我們過的時間如果從現在開始應該是也是10年的時間因為裡面也一樣現在來就是中國規劃環評還有包括用地取得跟施工大概也要10年的時間現在部長我們鄉親也最關心的一車到底"},{"start":22076.672,"end":22104.641,"text":"目前是沒有一車到底,會在剛才談到在林園會做一個轉乘,但是我們現在捷運都會在盡量做到同業台轉乘,這意思說你車到的時候另外一邊的車也到了,就走過來而已這樣,大概類似這樣。我可以向委員報告一下,其實雖然沒有一車到底,但是你如果轉乘很方便的時候,沒有感覺,我們另外一個很重要的就是,那也未來還有延伸其他可能性,"},{"start":22106.813,"end":22129.691,"text":"我再請教院長,除了這個小港到東港臨濱之外,我們另外還有一個大寮、萬丹、潮州縣,還有一個大寮、屏東縣跟左營道、屏東縣,這三條的進度是不是請補充來說明一下?這個補充在那個屏東縣政府的整體路網裡面放下去,但是他個別的路線還沒有送到交通部。"},{"start":22130.401,"end":22150.86,"text":"他是在整體入行裡面有這幾條那現在就是縣政府看哪一個是優先優先送進來那目前他們是以這一個延伸延伸到這個大鵬灣這條是當他的優先路線後邊管政院什麼也不會我們就來處理我們會盡量的協助"},{"start":22151.906,"end":22155.908,"text":"現在就好像高雄捷運南線延伸有上來了,啊剩下這三條就要看管政府如果做好,那個可行性"},{"start":22173.177,"end":22175.998,"text":"我印象最深刻我們潘孟安前縣長2005年"},{"start":22199.667,"end":22202.289,"text":"我請教院長跟部長,到底我們現在高鐵難演的屏東的進度如何?"},{"start":22216.628,"end":22235.411,"text":"今天做環評跟綜合規劃,現在大概整個路線都已經確定了,到六塊處。那六塊處現在在行政這邊也把它做成一個特定區。其實你看六塊處那邊開始都有一些建設在做了。"},{"start":22236.144,"end":22259.455,"text":"所以大概端點就是到這個六塊處大概是這樣目前就是按照我們行程應該是本席很納悶的事我們好像最近幾年每隔一段時間就會聽到媒體有一些關於這個路線也好關於我們部裡面也有一些雜音也好弄這樣陸續的報導那到底我們現在路線到底定案了沒有"},{"start":22260.579,"end":22283.559,"text":"目前可行性已經定案不進入高雄市區目前當然在前一陣子也有高雄的立委在談說可不可以考慮到進到市區比如說我們走雲走到高雄鳳山到屏東但是這個問題就是說進入高雄市區有牽涉到二次施工就鐵路地下化有二次施工的問題"},{"start":22285.401,"end":22286.962,"text":"所以原本的左營案還有辦法就對了?"},{"start":22304.224,"end":22306.005,"text":"我們在2019交通部的對外宣布"},{"start":22332.284,"end":22361.193,"text":"我們要2029年要通車這個目標我看目前為止如果到現在都沒時間不可能了嗎?會完成吧?現在目標也是潮州那邊來建築因為他已經到環平的尾端了已經做一陣子了環境影響評估之後再繼續那另外我們鄉親也另外一個關心的部分除了他又快速之外有沒有可能難言到潮州因為我們的"},{"start":22362.88,"end":22388.982,"text":"蘇貞昌前院長來屏東的時候,包括賴總統說的這個部分,我們相信也在關心這個部分,是不是有做這樣的規劃?其實委員進入兵棟你就說得很對,就是說你進入屏東,我出不來了,可是你要跳一堆出來,所以在六塊柱當時就是預留是往南沿的這個空間,你在說的是很對的,就是說不進入市區就準備要南沿的那個留下彈性,"},{"start":22389.807,"end":22401.161,"text":"因為你沒到中秋,未來我們要連接到東部,會困難重重,所以這部分還是要請院長跟部長,這個我們努力的目標,2029年這部分真的要趕快點燃,趕快點燃"},{"start":22404.14,"end":22412.066,"text":"對,當然現在就是六個主席一定會做選擇,民眾到中心這裏到底要怎麼做,這很多討論,你看很多個體都想過這個鄉庭的地方,像台南也好,"},{"start":22423.815,"end":22442.391,"text":"不叫新國中心區,這就要有我們的管政府也要看我們這裡的鄉鎮地方、這裡的地方的頭人做個討論,看怎麼比較好。所以說這其實我也希望說管政府如果有這個想法,還有委員有這個建議,來想好,看要怎麼進行。如果地方的意見有議題,這樣當然就會更快。"},{"start":22449.456,"end":22463.027,"text":"這還是要特別請院長跟部長幫忙,我覺得我們一段時間應該要有一個進度出來,要有鄉親一個交代,不然大家都要望眼欲穿,還沒到一個好的結果。委員很認真,推動這裡的屏東的道路也好,軌道的建設也好,都很認真。我當然像剛才你說過,"},{"start":22472.535,"end":22484.582,"text":"謝謝院長,因為我相信院長對屏東也很疼愛,這真的是我們平安相信所有人的期待我們的平安的交通建設,屏東的交通建設,而不把任督而脈打通真的屏東的發展,永遠都是站不住的保水,這部分真的請院長多幫忙。"},{"start":22501.345,"end":22530.466,"text":"那因為時間關係那針對大鵬灣的未來的開發還有我們墾丁國家公園的建設武通的問題那我想這部分也要特別請我們交通部的王部長還有我們內政部的林部長針對這個相關大鵬灣的開發跟坑管處所面臨一些民怨的問題是不是可以來近來加快速度尤其大鵬灣的部分就是所謂的一些公共基礎的建設速度拖延"},{"start":22530.882,"end":22552.662,"text":"然後從2019年臺灣登會結束之後,聽到在爬風,就在鄉親都在歡領。那墾丸處的問題就是所謂的一個部落化出這個國家公園範圍的部分,那當然這個也有政壇兩面的意見。那這部分也要請我們的內政部加快武統的速度啦,可以讓這個問題改觀,不要讓白色在那"},{"start":22554.156,"end":22556.516,"text":"謝謝許委員的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請謝委員依奉質詢。"},{"start":22595.297,"end":22598.666,"text":"謝謝韓院長。我們是不是請陳建仁院長。請陳院長備詢。"},{"start":22606.232,"end":22623.098,"text":"是午安。恭喜你當選連任。謝謝。即使是連任,我們還是要從選前。我們選前的院會其實我有質詢,就是關於2025年的台紐經濟合作協定會導致就是紐西蘭的紐魯林關稅的進口。"},{"start":22625.339,"end":22643.728,"text":"那這是2030年7月時候所有臺灣諾農他們的連署書喔。他們希望政府可以協助他們,把他們找到產業未來發展的方向。那我想請問,去年我們也是同樣就是我們三位嘛。"},{"start":22644.628,"end":22662.817,"text":"我想請問當初我們的目標是希望臺灣的牛乳自主力還是可以達到7成那以目前為止你們的目標有沒有改變選前選後我想這件事情我們部長有積極的在跟諾龍有做相關的討論我請他做一個回答"},{"start":22663.403,"end":22686.65,"text":"我跟委員說明,針對臺灣的牛乳因應臺牛的自由領館罪進口的部分,我們大概已經從去年的9月到現在已經開了6次的會議,跟洛農本身的協調。我們也擬定了整個洛農精進的一個計畫抱怨。主要的內容大概分為幾個部分。"},{"start":22687.93,"end":22706.317,"text":"第一個部分就是委員所關心的就是我們未來台灣的牛奶本身的自給率的部分那現在目前國內的牛乳的部分大概是46萬噸但是在短期之內因為我們現在把一些比較寡產的這個乳牛做一些淘汰"},{"start":22706.877,"end":22709.578,"text":"因為我們現在的牛奶量是不是很多?因為從我們夏季的牛乳開始就發生了供過於求的這樣子的問題"},{"start":22728.644,"end":22744.184,"text":"是不是?那這個問題目前怎麼解決?所以你們當初在選前有承諾糯農協會承諾那些糯農的朋友你們要補助每一頭牛就是淘汰乳牛2.5萬是不是?"},{"start":22746.107,"end":22774.706,"text":"對,我們就是寡產的牛,不是全部寡,就是它產乳的量比較低的這些牛,寡產的牛我們會有一個就是淘汰的一個機制,對有一個淘汰的機制,那淘汰部分我們會做一些補助,那同樣的就是 那補助是多少?我們現在原來規劃大概是兩萬五左右,但是我們整個的經費現在在抱怨在審核當中,最後的經費我相信我們一定會為弱農爭取最大的一個量,會不會跳票?"},{"start":22775.997,"end":22802.625,"text":"他已經在申請了嘛。會不會跳票啊?院長會不會跳票?當然,我們說話算話。不會跳票嘛。那我是不是再請衛福部長,因為其實我們在上一次的時候也提到了,就是說如果未來紐西蘭的這個牛乳進入了台灣的能源系統,你們兩個說法是不一的。我不知道你們現在檢驗的標準已經合而為一了沒有?不要在台灣裡面搞兩次嘛,一國兩制嘛。"},{"start":22803.665,"end":22822.199,"text":"我想基本上我們第一個最重要的目標就是要讓我們的消費者認同我們台灣的牛奶所以我們針對標章的部分台灣乳的標章的部分我們已經重新設計了而且也經過酪農跟消費者本身的一個評選那是就台灣先入的部分對台灣的部分對"},{"start":22823.12,"end":22840.301,"text":"但是如果進入冷鏈系統未來紐西蘭的牛乳如果進入臺灣的冷鏈系統裡面當初我們衛福部薛部長也是薛部長你說以目前你們的檢驗方法是沒有辦法區分紐西蘭的牛乳跟臺灣的鮮乳"},{"start":22841.762,"end":22855.357,"text":"我根本不能報告,這個部分在續產會本,我們本身的續產試驗所已經開發出來的臺灣乳跟國外進口的乳的一個區別,這個技術已經有了。那如果他們是mix,就是說在冷電系統裡面已經mix了,"},{"start":22857.219,"end":22878.617,"text":"那你們有辦法檢驗出來嗎?我們可以查得出來所以我們現在透過標準的方式但是未來但是你們的續產所可以但是未來到了市場以後甚至到了各縣市以後都是由衛福部以及各縣市的衛生所去做集合的工作對不對?"},{"start":22880.639,"end":22904.755,"text":"不過這要標示啦,從進來開始。我知道,可是未來到時候也會有集合的動作啊。那集合的動作是採衛福部的標準還是採農業部的標準?我想整個的標章制度是由衛福部這邊規範的。那進口跟國產的區分只要它是混的,然後沒有標示的時候,那就是違法。"},{"start":22905.802,"end":22927.25,"text":"那第二個部分我要跟委員說明的就是違法違法是一件事情我當然知道只要混的就是違法但是如果混的你沒有辦法查的時候那你怎麼知道他違法我跟委員說明齁後市場的查那個是需要比較耗費大的人力跟物力所以我們現在設計是說我們在源頭的時候爐廠的時候我們台灣爐標章的時候"},{"start":22935.277,"end":22952.574,"text":"委員你現在講的就是說我們如果有這個牛乳的履歷然後有牛乳的標章然後看是台灣牛還是有西南牛你現在擔心的就是說有一些人少數的人他會去混用但是混用抓到當然就處罰"},{"start":22954.155,"end":22981.846,"text":"問題是怎麼抓?問題是怎麼抓?我們現在可以講檢驗的方式嗎?問題是到時候是採怎麼樣的檢驗方式嗎?那農業部應該既然農業部現在認為他們已經有辦法查核這樣子就是把就是未來外國的牛乳混沖成臺灣的鮮奶的時候那這樣子查核的機制總要給大家知道嘛"},{"start":22982.546,"end":22986.168,"text":"我們的技術一定要經過衛福部這邊經過一個程序認可以後就變成一個公告的法定的方法"},{"start":23007.961,"end":23008.561,"text":"我知道啊,我就是在問你說"},{"start":23036.809,"end":23057.936,"text":"你們這個部分要統合清楚嘛,是不是?到時候檢查的才不會標準不一嘛。他們去年說法是不一的嘛。去年是因為還沒有這個方法嘛,那現在已經統一了嘛。所以委員你不用擔心,我們一定不會各步走各的路,一定是整合在一起。"},{"start":23059.022,"end":23076.116,"text":"還有我們還提到了就是畜牧業的廢棄物那不只是就是不只是一般的廢棄物甚至是他們的糞尿的這個廢棄物其實目前民眾對於這些廢棄物的處理方式還是大有疑慮"},{"start":23076.957,"end":23078.798,"text":"我跟委員說明就是整個"},{"start":23101.272,"end":23124.018,"text":"續產的部分的這些廢棄物我們現在把它把它稱為農業剩餘資材因為它還可以再利用的部分然後這個再利用的部分我舉個例子就是養豬場本身的那些過去一直被詬病的那個情緒那樣的污水我們現在用高床的處理高床的處理的話就減少的用水那相對的它整個污水量就會變少然後把這些"},{"start":23124.818,"end":23147.096,"text":"那個情緒分量本身就發變。 那你們到底處理了多少?我們彰化縣你們處理了多少?你們補助了多少續設?你們做了多少這樣子高床的設施減少就是這樣子就是他們這些資材的那一種。 我可能要查但是以整體來講就是整個畜牧場裡面有大概有4"},{"start":23148.477,"end":23165.114,"text":"應該就2000多場在申請在改建了那totally大概有5000多場所以已經將近有三成的全國來講將近有三成的這些養豬場已經在做這樣的一個改善的部分張嬅有多少張嬅我想廢後我們廢後再提供給你廢後我再提供給你數字給你阿"},{"start":23171.241,"end":23192.524,"text":"對啊,執行完我們再給委員報告。對啊,那環境部呢?環境部你們到底在協助這部分,你們還是用潮運車,那有沒有更先進的方式呢?因為潮運車去運送這個過程當中還是會產生就是不必要的衛道啊或者是髒亂也好,那怎麼樣子減少這部分?"},{"start":23193.526,"end":23199.968,"text":"那如果你們現在已經未來你們預估的方式是採用在地利用,我甚至不知道你們在地利用這個方式到520之後會不會改變?"},{"start":23218.839,"end":23240.931,"text":"這個政策應該是不會改變,因為資源的循環事實上是未來的一個趨勢。我想這個農業沒有廢棄物啦,農業資源這些剩餘資產的這個再利用我們是一定是一貫的,而且不管是在現在或者520以後當然是因為還是仍然同一個"},{"start":23243.069,"end":23245.138,"text":"政黨在執政嗎?怎麼可能會改變?"},{"start":23249.822,"end":23275.817,"text":"這個是2024年1月22號我們嘉義縣的翁縣長他說的他說在嘉義台塘有非常多的地可以歡迎台積電來利用那我想請問為什麼我們在選前的時候也積極在爭取我們彰化縣也有非常多台塘的土地那甚至在這個我們20也希望設置20精密機械園區"},{"start":23277.418,"end":23295.496,"text":"像設置惡靈精密機械園區這樣子的難道是臺堂的農地發展成工業區的條件是不是跨縣市有不同選前選後有不同到時候換政府就是換政府執政的時候會不會有不同"},{"start":23296.107,"end":23318.727,"text":"委員你講話不必要這樣講我想讓我們部長來說明我先跟委員說明就是惡靈機械的精密園區本身事實上在97年就開始有一些相關的一個環評的一個審查那現在最大的一個問題就是在這個園區裡面它有所謂的兩種鳥類就是那個黑"},{"start":23319.668,"end":23341.3,"text":"黑尾煙還有一個雁橫這兩個保育類的鳥類必須要做適當的一個解決方案讓這個棲地能夠得以維持那目前為止到了大概去年12月的時候彰化縣政府提供的這些解決方案並沒有做任何跟他之前所提出來的說法有改變"},{"start":23342.02,"end":23363.523,"text":"換句話說在這個兩個保育類還沒有還沒有把它找到解決方案之前那個環評的二階的環評他大會是沒辦法召開的所以現在是目前的卡關是在整個保育類的部分那我們農業部會跟彰化縣政府我們也提過了我們會跟我們的生物多樣性研究所一起來努力把這個那個解決方案把它找出來"},{"start":23365.209,"end":23391.602,"text":"過去我們在發展其實這已經很久了在王惠美縣長之前甚至在那個衛明谷縣長的時候都已經提出這個惡靈精密機械遊戲那時候都沒有提出有這個保育鳥類的問題可是為什麼突然之間就產生這個問題甚至我們就是發現說沒有那環評大會在之前好像都沒有提出相關的問題"},{"start":23393.002,"end":23408.096,"text":"但是我想要請教的就是為什麼在嘉義是台積電可以使用台塘的農地而我們20的精密機械園區沒有辦法使用台塘的農地那是不是跨縣市有不同?"},{"start":23408.957,"end":23429.027,"text":"還是當然不是以農業部來講還是產業不同以農業部來講我們是針對土地本身的一個可利用性跟它土壤的質地我們不會去管說地上物是台湯的土地或是私人的土地或是國有地的部分這第一個要說明第二個要說明的就是我們在針對"},{"start":23430.909,"end":23452.291,"text":"我們一定會跟產業就是我們的經濟發展做一些相關的配合但是在配合的過程中我們會針對裡面如果說有有機的栽培區我們就會去提醒如果你要做一個園區就一定要想辦法把有機栽培園區做妥適的處理那如果裡面它有保育有棲地的必要性的時候那我們也會做提醒"},{"start":23452.791,"end":23475.96,"text":"那如果說提醒過了以後他有做適度的一個解決方案的時候那通常就不會有問題以惡靈精密園區來講我們在100年的時候就已經同意他做農地變更了對我就說他本來在之前他就已經同意要變成就是精密工業園區但是那個王美花部長已經在後面等了給他講一下好了"},{"start":23477.58,"end":23503.504,"text":"是不是就產業別有差別到底我們臺灣的精密機械產業有沒有前景還是以目前來看我們的電力上漲可能未來也有碳費的問題等等的再加上我們跟周邊國家的關稅貿易協定以及雙方的關稅貿易協定都沒有簽訂再加上地緣政治的問題讓臺灣的傳產"},{"start":23506.605,"end":23528.457,"text":"都發生了非常重大的結構性的問題是不是我們經濟部就乾脆讓這些隱形冠軍讓這些傳產讓他們自然淘汰就沒有辦法有生活的問題不會不會絕對不會我們其實非常重視委員提到這些產業那我們也希望他能夠升級轉型那委員提到這個惡靈精密園區因為他兩個步驟一個是都市"},{"start":23533.66,"end":23562.022,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":23562.122,"end":23586.247,"text":"那另外一個問題就是說常常在環評也被問到一個問題就是說目前的這個20科學園區的進駐率有沒有提升那這個也會就是說提升了以後就表示這個用地的需求一直在增加那這樣也會對我們開發20精密園區的需要性也會比較有幫助那所以這幾個問題的部分"},{"start":23588.147,"end":23596.975,"text":"那經濟部也會來跟相關的部會合作還是你們就是默默的就把他移到嘉義啊?嘉義有嘉義的嘉義的台湯的農地都比較不會產生保育類的那個動物啊委員你這樣說的話不是事實啊就是移到不會有抗爭啊"},{"start":23609.206,"end":23609.906,"text":"你如果再跟我講這個那我再跟你提到了"},{"start":23637.931,"end":23654.987,"text":"但是同樣的我發現了很多的光電業者他們要在我們的濕地就是方圓鄉啊大城鄉等等的濕地建立光電的就是要設置太陽光板那"},{"start":23655.447,"end":23680.23,"text":"我問你現在目前如果像這樣子的精密機械園區做的是比較有大規模的經濟我也想要請問那在那樣子的情況下為什麼有時候光電業者可以跟國產署對於相關的農地來申請變更成就是特殊事業用地嘛做光電的生產"},{"start":23680.871,"end":23702.273,"text":"那為什麼有時候在這樣子比較重大有工業就是有一些經濟前景的情況下這種大規模的有那個聚酪效應的產業沒有辦法使用這些農地而這些零碎性的可以使用農地那這對於環境的影響"},{"start":23704.315,"end":23718.662,"text":"我跟委員說明齁,現在目前以農地提供作為光電用使用的部分大概分為三大類。第一大類就是漁電工程區。那這個漁電工程區大概20905公頃。那第二個部分是不利耕作區是2162公頃。"},{"start":23721.704,"end":23747.05,"text":"那第三個部分是大概是用農地變更的方式這些地的圈出來之前他都一定經過生態檢核跟環社的一個檢核檢核完了確定了他不這裡面的區位是沒有跟所謂的棲地我們必須要保護的棲地有關我們才會把他框出來所以他有一定的隊長我跟你說好不好他們跟我講說"},{"start":23748.95,"end":23766.8,"text":"現在多少面積的光電需要申請環評?光電目前不是,是用環射檢測的部分,因為它對環境的影響相對跟設工廠本來就不太一樣。多少面積需要申請環射?"},{"start":23769.255,"end":23784.889,"text":"其實是區域的問題,那我們就跟農業部合作來做相關的...因為我聽到的現況,我們都在政府部門工作嘛,那我們必須要了解實地的狀況。"},{"start":23786.571,"end":23801.051,"text":"現況是他們就化整為零啊。他們就把那個就是同樣一個區塊,他們可以申請設立公司多一點,然後分塊來就是申請。那減少需要面臨這種環評或環設的條件啊。"},{"start":23803.274,"end":23819.627,"text":"反射檢測不會因為你的面積變小了就不做反射檢測就在我剛才說的就在我們所框定的漁電工程區兩萬多公頃我們已經初步做反射反射的一個檢核比較低敏感的但是你在申請的時候同樣會再確認一次"},{"start":23821.829,"end":23851.109,"text":"不管你是一公頃或是十公頃都還是要經過環社的檢核過這個是在整個的申請過程中一個必要的一個條件以農業部來講我們一定會去保護我們的農地所以到目前為止20905公頃裡面的餘電公升值用了大概2200多公頃不到十分之一不利工作區也用不到三分之一就是因為我們持續在跟經濟部一起努力有做一個非常嚴謹的審核不會對我們生態造成一些影響"},{"start":23852.35,"end":23868.907,"text":"但是在過去的時候在之前的時候其實就已經你們都把就是說國產署的土地或者是各部會的土地都已經希望設定成就是大家共同來推光電了是不是?"},{"start":23869.824,"end":23873.848,"text":"我知道說我具體沒有我們一定是先盤出說這個合不合適色光店然後才會去推如果那個區域是不合適我們第一關就會被農委會打槍了不太可能"},{"start":23885.439,"end":23909.984,"text":"我想部會是整合的啦委員你會有你的懷疑那是我是尊重但是我要跟委員報告在整個關店的發展上實際上我們部會之間都有很密切的協調我們是希望能夠在環境保育做得很好而且呢能夠發展關店的情況下一起來推動所以你會覺得哎呀怎麼會審查這麼多這麼多"},{"start":23912.624,"end":23940.222,"text":"問題就是說希望台灣能夠有產業的發展又有環境的保護通通能夠兼顧嘛所以你這樣講片面的實際上不是我們的情況我們部會是合作的我也是把就是說目前民眾他們的想法跟你分享嘛民眾的想法有些可能不正確啦我們必須要在這裡就是要對於國家未來的政策總是要在這裡達到溝通達到全民共識的方向啦對不對"},{"start":23941.002,"end":23941.382,"text":"這是台電的上一張"},{"start":23950.923,"end":23972.578,"text":"我們看到這是臺電它的發電成本那其實我們自發的電力在再生能源我們自發的電力是1.72塊在2022年的時候2023年的時候是2.53那其實我們都比購入的電力都非常的都是低很多那所以民眾就會希望說是不是"},{"start":23973.759,"end":23999.571,"text":"尤其是非常多中小企業廠商他們沒有辦法花那麼多錢那再加上有可能3月份的電價審議委員會未來對於電價的發電也會做適當的調整那這可能都會漲到民生電價以及所有的產業的用電那這個部分我們有沒有辦法調整再生能源的這個電價呢"},{"start":24002.052,"end":24027.519,"text":"在聖誕園部分事實上現在對新的這個離岸風電其實都已經是讓民間來買電了不用短購費率那所以臺電對離岸風電沒有再用這個短購費率來收購那太陽光電的部分事實上從今年開始那越來越多的企業會把甚至現在的短購費率會變成是他們自己去買電"},{"start":24028.519,"end":24043.749,"text":"所以這個太陽光電來賺購匯率給台電的部分的占比呢也會逐漸的來降低啦那因為發展再生能源對整個國家是很必須的所以我們還是要支持這個再生能源的發展"},{"start":24044.942,"end":24069.314,"text":"對可是我們即便是很必須我也我也認為啦因為未來整個就是說世界的趨勢但是在目前我們我們目前看到其實我有找了一張就是你們去年跟前年的電力供應供需的概況發現了其實我們今年度的就是工業用電就是減少非常大嗎"},{"start":24070.134,"end":24096.596,"text":"然後我們的工業用電工業部門的用電他的需求是暫比是56.1%嘛他就降低了2.8%所以在其實這是因為全球景氣的關係以及我們是仰賴出口的關係那導致於我們目前沒有缺點的問題有可能是因為景氣不好那工廠的生產沒有這麼大的需求的情況下所導致我們電力需求沒有這麼高的情況下"},{"start":24097.256,"end":24119.192,"text":"那是不是在這個時間點我們對於光電的這個發展要進行一些調整啊?我們再回來看喔就是看我們的電力結構裡面喔其實我們發現再生能源即便是我不要講你們是錯誤的能源錯誤能源等一下你陳院長就跳腳啦但是我們總要解讀"},{"start":24123.595,"end":24149.65,"text":"我們總要檢討一下嗎?我們總要檢討一下嗎?因為即便是目前我們希望我們的再生能源占比增加但是以目前你們的速度要達到你們2025年想要的20%的那個目標是遠遠不可能除非技術進步那現在目前我們有什麼樣子技術進步的能量嗎?"},{"start":24151.024,"end":24166.792,"text":"是不是能夠讓我們2025可以而且我再說一下尤其是太陽能光店我有看過臺電的就是太陽能光店的發展跟一般就是民間的太陽能光店的發展"},{"start":24167.432,"end":24196.286,"text":"其實為什麼民眾對於光電業的發展認為需要做部分的檢討那就是在法令限制的模糊的空間裡面第一個我們有沒有辦法提高太陽能光電的效率嗎即便我們要再生能源我們也希望說技術進步可以促進光電發電的效率嗎在既有的就是設施上面我們有沒有辦法提高光電的發電效率以及"},{"start":24196.966,"end":24215.116,"text":"怎麼樣子在臨近民宅臨近其他就是說設施裡面那怎麼樣子就是有退縮的這個機制嗎所以在法令上面有沒有可能在520之前你們做一個檢討然後在法規上面做改變"},{"start":24215.868,"end":24238.105,"text":"委員我聽不太懂這個退縮的機制是什麼?我是說不是他在一塊地裡面例如他比較接近民宅或者是接近因為有時候接近民宅他是可以設置光電的那這個部分你要不要做退縮的機制?有有這個然後這個這要修改法令對不對?"},{"start":24239.466,"end":24254.149,"text":"其實是我們的規範,不需要到法律的部分。這個部分是不是必須要做一個,然後發電的太陽能板也有非常多種。那未來比較高發電效率的太陽能板是什麼?"},{"start":24254.71,"end":24275.285,"text":"那未來是不是大家應該要採取高就是說高效率的發展的就是高效率發電量的太陽能板這都是需要做一個進一步的檢討不然以目前臺灣剩餘的土地有沒有辦法就是說全面性的發展然後你全面性的發展以外"},{"start":24276.245,"end":24293.922,"text":"對於民眾而言他們會不會覺得受到困擾因為太陽能板在旁邊很熱嘛很亮嘛這都是一種嫌惡的設施嘛那民眾會這也會影響到民眾居住的品質你不要笑啊太陽能板是邪惡的設施這樣的講法嫌惡"},{"start":24298.584,"end":24324.979,"text":"你被人家嫌、被人家討厭嘛。你的意思是這樣嗎?太陽能板被人家嫌惡的措施這樣的講法我想跟一般的理解是不太一樣可是我完全尊重委員講法確實太陽能發電的技術一直在進步我同意你的想法就是說如果有更好的技術我們當然要採用啊這個我完全同意然後呢不要讓民眾覺得嫌惡"},{"start":24329.441,"end":24342.226,"text":"所以兩個部分一個就是如果這個太陽能面板離居住的地方很近了目前我們有規範它四周一定要退縮然後用綠帶來隔離那不要造成這個附近"},{"start":24342.646,"end":24342.906,"text":"﹚一、二、三、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":24359.923,"end":24376.578,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":24376.678,"end":24377.859,"text":"那你們自己要不要修核子能反應設施管制法?"},{"start":24406.218,"end":24408.542,"text":"就是我們的核電廠研議的條例。"},{"start":24459.053,"end":24460.655,"text":"謝謝謝委員依奉的質詢。謝謝陳院長的答詢。接下來我們請林委員國陳請質詢。"},{"start":24499.637,"end":24505.522,"text":"其實本席第一次跟你在對質詢所以我特別一定要把我的個性"},{"start":24524.073,"end":24524.393,"text":"另外 院長"},{"start":24551.462,"end":24554.883,"text":"我沒有答會所問。我不會。我針對問題回答。好。好。院長。"},{"start":24581.343,"end":24605.225,"text":"我冒昧的請教你一個問題我今天要跟你談的是勞保年金破產的問題這個問題當然看起來對立的機會不會很大但是探討的價值絕對是一定要探討的所以院長我冒昧請教你"},{"start":24606.343,"end":24619.069,"text":"到底我們所有勞工他投保的人數現在在臺灣被保險人有多少?1050萬另外一點我再請教院長勞工有兩種"},{"start":24628.142,"end":24655.014,"text":"請問院長你知道哪兩種嗎?一個就是一般的勞工一個就是那個職業勞工這兩種那勞保局我要請教勞保的保險條例到底他是社會保險或者商業保險我必須要先釐清以後才有辦法再問下去社會保險"},{"start":24657.455,"end":24686.779,"text":"院長其實看起來你是寫者專家出身但是對於勞工的問題基本上你還是瞭解的非常多這一點我代表勞工我要特別謝謝你瞭解勞工委員那個勞保年金改革我在當副總統的時候也是其中的一個重點但是現在勞工的新生我必須要跟院長來做投訴"},{"start":24687.785,"end":24694.275,"text":"你知道一天到晚勞工繳錢你們說要破產請問我們將心比心"},{"start":24697.714,"end":24702.737,"text":"你身為勞工的心情你會感覺有什麼看法?"},{"start":24727.894,"end":24729.255,"text":"議長,你講這些,原則性我是同意。"},{"start":24756.405,"end":24772.231,"text":"但是任何解決問題一定要了解它真正的問題在哪裡。其實我要問院長一句話到底勞保要破產是政府的事或者勞工的事"},{"start":24773.499,"end":24790.795,"text":"政府要破產,我想這個制度當然是很重要的。當時我們在做老保年金改革規劃的時候,第一個當然就是採集的年數,第二個就是這個給付率是多少,第三個就是費率是多少。"},{"start":24791.215,"end":24818.41,"text":"那這些東西都要整體來考量的時候才能夠做一個可以永續的合理的勞保的健全的情況那當然這裡面有一個很重要的部分就是既然我們對於這個低收入的這些勞工要給他很好的奪地板的保護所以政府也一定要有政府這個補貼的經費進來所以現在大概有這四項政府的補助、撥補"},{"start":24819.93,"end":24845.208,"text":"然後呢這個採集的年數然後費率跟那個給付率嘛這四項一定要連動啦你講這些原則性都是對的啦但是真正的原因要把它找出來所以我要從頭把歷史啊也就是看來拋破雲來即使這個歷史一定要了解才有辦法去解決問題"},{"start":24846.454,"end":24874.613,"text":"我在乎的是身為一個勞工然後我規規矩矩繳了保惠動不動政府就說他要破產這對勞工的心理是非常沉重的那議長你聽我說完實際上政府動不動去做這些事基本上我真的要跟院長建議勞工破產的問題不是勞工的責任"},{"start":24875.089,"end":24883.876,"text":"是政府的責任所以我可以講一句話嗎?我可以講一下嗎?政府從來都沒有說過勞保會破產政府只說一定會負最後的幾戶責任那個破產是因為看到我們的收入和支出不平衡的時候就很多"},{"start":24900.749,"end":24907.333,"text":"很多媒體的heading寫出來的這個下標說會破產這個我們從來沒有說會破產"},{"start":24910.523,"end":24931.712,"text":"好啦一定 我跟你講實在話就是這樣來 我跟你講啦齁 這一些事情要讓你了解你才是真正的問題因為我為什麼會堅持政府經營不善不能把責任全部推給老公這一點我想院長你同意吧我同意 同意齁來 我們現在就是要先了解一下啦"},{"start":24933.353,"end":24933.873,"text":"好,我聆聽你的高見來第一個"},{"start":24959.964,"end":24985.867,"text":"四十九年成立至現在五十七年改建至五十九年把臺民地區最重要在這裡喔!最重要在這裡!八十五年1996年的時候我們臺灣省政府都承辦這些勞保但是這些勞保到最後是我們中央來承接在這裡喔一定有"},{"start":24986.598,"end":24998.289,"text":"我要向你請教一下,我們當初還有部長請問你們當初承接的時候到底虧損有多少?我沒想清楚,這1996年我沒想清楚"},{"start":25001.656,"end":25021.804,"text":"曾接的時候本來是臺灣省政府管轄的臺民地區的勞保局嘛那最後是我們中央勞委會曾接起來這個業務所以改屬我們中央政府嘛也是我們勞動部的前身勞委會嘛所以我請問85年開始的時候曾接起來請問那個時候虧損有多少"},{"start":25031.567,"end":25035.541,"text":"報告委員是不是有虧損或者虧損多少這部分我要進一步釐清"},{"start":25036.63,"end":25062.874,"text":"所以我坦白講嘛剛剛我問過院長到底我們是社會保險或者商業保險其實院長講得很清楚勞保本來就是社會保險其實那個時候動神之外把臺灣臺民地區勞保局所有的經費移到中央來的時候那個時候是沒有清算的"},{"start":25064.161,"end":25092.028,"text":"到底虧損有多少我告訴院長那個時候的勞保匯率只有6.5現在的匯率把所有84年把健保醫療的部分撥到中央政府健保局的時候那個時候其實從以後84年以後是沒有什麼虧錢的真正虧錢虧在哪邊是在"},{"start":25094.283,"end":25108.874,"text":"臺民地區那個6.5%結果他醫療給付各項保障通通有但是現在是12%加上健保的5.71%20%所以勞工繳錢是沒有減少的"},{"start":25114.537,"end":25137.065,"text":"也就是勞工繳得多領得少以前是繳得少領得多所以為什麼勞工現在都常常不講話常常不講話心裡面生悶氣政府動不動就說勞保要倒掉拜託議長我要報告你我說實在的今天這些事"},{"start":25138.687,"end":25158.167,"text":"勞保真的是勞工的養老本跟他的棺材本所以不要動不動就這樣我希望院長你在做事情你比過去的院長那當然跟你在對白在執行的時候確實你在整個問題的了解度是夠的"},{"start":25159.188,"end":25174.958,"text":"所以我今天跟行家要講話我特別真正的所有問題就是你們在承接的時候那個時候的洞大洞根本多少多少錢的虧損你們根本不知道嘛你們只承接出來"},{"start":25176.038,"end":25199.654,"text":"曾接出來但是你不曉得真正勞保的黑洞就在這個部分也就是49年到84年那個時候的大黑洞並非84年以後健保把它分出去的時候那個時候勞保接下來是沒有什麼虧損的"},{"start":25201.072,"end":25230.229,"text":"所以你不能最後85年以後用商業保險的計算清算方式去做計算那這個是對勞工是不公平的還有議長我現在在跟你報告之後你才表達一個意見我跟你講你看喔第二個當初拿了勞保基金去買股票那不用我跟你講不然你好好去查一下"},{"start":25231.581,"end":25242.436,"text":"好好去查一下政策副盤虧錢是勞工的事嗎?是你政府要負責欸結果現在不是把所有責任推給勞工"},{"start":25243.619,"end":25255.467,"text":"那這樣沒說白啦,但是我要說啦,一定要,你要聽我心聲,台鐵一千控五十萬人的勞工啊,這個聲音要出來嘛,你這樣去做決定,不是說你一定這個給你上課,不是。"},{"start":25263.853,"end":25290.033,"text":"這是勞工多年來他的心聲透過今天有這個機會我要替一千多萬的勞工把心聲把他講出來所以第二還有一點勞保基金過去確實在整個繳的多領的少的情況之下這個基金是隨便亂用的"},{"start":25291.812,"end":25320.238,"text":"甚至於我要跟院長投訴甚至於拿勞保基金去做建設基金為什麼像台電當初沒有錢做建設的時候南電北送所有那個電塔是拿勞保基金去做這個那做建設無所謂最不能原諒的就是什麼現在我舉兩個例子一"},{"start":25321.616,"end":25329.334,"text":"抬開這個案子,保證你回去查看看,向勞保基金借了上百億,請問"},{"start":25331.94,"end":25351.607,"text":"到去年才還掉欸拜託欸你看看勞保基金可以這樣用嗎?所以為什麼?一定 我要跟你報告為什麼會說這是政府的責任也就是財政紀律啊不夠監督周前產生今天勞保的虧損連連"},{"start":25353.968,"end":25372.016,"text":"說實在的政府要負起責任政府要負起責任所以我要向你報告就是剛才我給你投訴這裡一次一個你們沒有精算第二個你們講快一點那個勞保基金的財政紀律也不見錢說護盤就護盤結果輸了都是勞工的事"},{"start":25377.578,"end":25398.543,"text":"我特別跟院長報告因為這些都是我是有參與的那參與的時候我覺得這樣是不好所以今天勞保的虧損絕對不是84年健保撥出去醫療撥出去了以後勞保是沒有什麼虧損的"},{"start":25400.438,"end":25421.478,"text":"但是我不管怎麼樣我覺得這是不管是現在的政府或前政府當然你們要概括承受我們知道可是我很不服氣的就是為什麼明明是政府經營不善管理不得當那為什麼把所有責任"},{"start":25423.133,"end":25446.802,"text":"這個要勞工來扛勒,所以這一點是對勞工不公平。所以議長,我講這些都有憑有據喔。我希望院長,我當然希望你繼續連任。你好好督促勞動部,好好把這個事情查清楚。這水落石出嘛。到底是勞工的問題還是政府的問題。我的認知"},{"start":25448.271,"end":25452.533,"text":"謝謝委員你給我上了一課讓我知道勞工保險成立的嚴格還有勞保黑洞你認為的看法我在這裡做三點的說明第一點"},{"start":25477.466,"end":25504.368,"text":"政府從來沒有認為這個勞保的問題是要勞工來負責而是政府都沒有責任這個我完全不同意因為呢實際上我剛才講過政府會負最後幾戶的責任第二個你剛才說到1996年的時候呢那個時候沒有黑洞但是你也提到沒有精算那如果沒有精算的時候呢實際上那一些人都還在年輕的時候加入保險"},{"start":25505.069,"end":25532.057,"text":"那到了96年他領的錢少當然他還夠嘛因為還大部分的人還在工作可是如果你精算下來的時候也許到96年的時候推算到這一些還在工作的人以後退休要領勞保的時候搞不好那個時候就已經是黑洞了啦那這是第二個我的想法第三個我也完全同意你的意見就是說勞保基金呢應該要有很好的這個投資"},{"start":25532.677,"end":25532.998,"text":"我不是說你現在"},{"start":25549.939,"end":25555.664,"text":"我現在指責的並非是我們現在在執政這個從84年以後那當然國民兩黨都有在執政現在不是你的責任問題"},{"start":25578.641,"end":25605.558,"text":"而是要把問題查清楚。第一,如果今天勞工是繳費不足,那當然大家來想辦法嘛。那事實上不是這樣。因為齁,現在勞工啊,這傢伙放兩年賠了啦。因為健保他也要繳,勞保他也要繳。事實上真正虧損的部分是84年以前是"},{"start":25607.783,"end":25635.488,"text":"醫療跟勞保通通都是一張單子那當然這個部分確實是虧損那那個時候我問你有沒有精算你們也沒有啊那我不曉得說你們這樣接起來那那個是大動嘛那那個時候的政府當然要負責任我現在沒有講現在的政府現在的政府我坦白跟你講你要我讚賞我可以讚賞第一做得最好的"},{"start":25636.624,"end":25660.509,"text":"是陳菊院長那個時候對勞工假勞工的東西就是佔勞工便宜的錢最後他任內全部都退還第一舉例15年以下不能成熟退休給付結果他就老了他就走了最後陳菊花完一年第二許民春部長"},{"start":25661.715,"end":25676.448,"text":"他是公道的為什麼在前兩年疫情最嚴重的時候他去爭取不一定雇主的職業勞工可以紓困這些所以我沒有怪你但是我們要把問題理清楚"},{"start":25676.988,"end":25697.386,"text":"今天不是勞工的問題是政府的問題是當初你們沒有精算而現在產生這些虧損把所有責任推給勞工一定要多繳保費要掃零要什麼樣要改革這些東西對勞工是不公平一定 我跟你投訴的是這個問題所以你剛才有講過當然我還是肯定"},{"start":25703.391,"end":25704.733,"text":"委員我再補充一下好不好"},{"start":25721.432,"end":25722.253,"text":"正常的增加復減"},{"start":25747.347,"end":25772.201,"text":"都可以大家來看這勞工不是異窮不變的是他們的責任他們該繳的就繳但是一味的全部責任歸在勞工上面這個我不贊同我也不贊同所以一定我跟你說你剛才有講過撥補要繼續另外一個我還是比較在乎的就是跟院長報告你講的就是要入華啦"},{"start":25773.375,"end":25795.911,"text":"確定幾乎乎勞工放心,這點一定,你贊成嗎?我贊成啊。好,入閥這個部分本席也會為了這個事把它修改,把它入閥。這樣的話勞工的問題他不會人心惶惶。我現在驕急,連天你跟我說要倒,誰願意去繳錢?所以這個部分我還是希望,我還是希望,院長"},{"start":25797.179,"end":25814.768,"text":"你是一個我真正的學者出身我不希望這樣公開的我希望你連任連任以後才有辦法去解決這個問題因為我今天把所有歷史都已經跟院長報告了嘛所以我希望一定"},{"start":25816.209,"end":25836.626,"text":"這個部份我要拜託你責成部長特別去把他查清楚該是誰的責任把他理清楚不要一去到晚上就要怪他一千、一百萬的勞工你都叫不夠這是對勞工不公平好不好一定好現在要再來跟你談最簡單就是談最簡單的一個問題消防員組工會"},{"start":25843.908,"end":25861.909,"text":"來來來那個主席拜託內政部長上來一下阿時間要暫停吧委員好一六"},{"start":25863.483,"end":25881.58,"text":"這個當然是探訪生意但是我們什麼東西都不要檢討為什麼為什麼消防員他要組工會其實組工會很簡單嘛他真的是很簡單不要這10年來一定有這10年來是43個"},{"start":25885.516,"end":25898.848,"text":"問題在哪邊是你們設計你們沒有在訓練或者問題出在哪邊其實坦白跟你講主公會或者主公會最大的目的就是結社前你們也協會也有給他結社前"},{"start":25900.729,"end":25929.892,"text":"另外一個就是那個還有協商錢。你們也給了,但是給的是給一半。協商真正公會法裡面規定是有罰則。你們協會裡面那些協商是沒有罰則。一點那個約束力都沒有。所以,一定,我告訴你,這就是做一半沒效了。那最主要是罷工錢。那罷工錢,我說實在本席也反對消防人員他要罷工。"},{"start":25930.779,"end":25950.214,"text":"因為養兵千日用在一時,所以這些罷工錢當然也不能適用,但是一定我是建議重新在盤點各單位好好去研究一下,即使讓他主工會不要動作洪水猛獸,不用那麼緊張"},{"start":25951.98,"end":25956.701,"text":"我認為因為這裏面有個很重要的就是消防員本身是公務員"},{"start":25980.111,"end":25994.136,"text":"那教師的時候,不是每一個都是公務員。那第二,就是說公務員現在也有這個,你剛才有說過,我們可以做這個協會嘛。那協會裡面的時候,他可以有多少的諮商權等等,這可以再來修法啦。我們已經提出一份,在訂一個會期啦。"},{"start":26004.335,"end":26018.929,"text":"但是這個發展這個會議因為預期不續什麼,我又會再寫出來,來在大院講,聽這個委員的意見,看我們朝野的做法跟想,想要好讓他比較好,工會比較好還是協會比較好,其實這也要來聽我們這個消防"},{"start":26023.613,"end":26027.874,"text":"因為他們需要的是職業安全法只要主公會他就有職業安全法但是"},{"start":26048.519,"end":26067.532,"text":"我聽說你們內政部都沒同意我跟委員報告一下,你基本談的這是兩件事情這是兩件事情,完全兩件第一個是我們的消防人員依照憲法的規定國家的公務員是必須經過國家考試消防員的身份是公務人員,但老師並不是"},{"start":26072.995,"end":26090.08,"text":"公務人員兼具勞工身份的一大堆啦你不要跟我講這個啦沒有沒有這兩件事情怎麼會兩件事情勞工我時間有限我跟你講公務人員兼具勞工身份一大堆只是法令要不要解套而已"},{"start":26090.74,"end":26113.615,"text":"所以齁,我坦白跟你講也沒錯,沒錯,你從基層上來,那你來這站我就感覺說,你都在基層都白呆了。我說實在的,主公會沒有那麼可怕,但是我同意警消限制罷工錢,那他有其他的,他只要是要入,"},{"start":26115.379,"end":26132.02,"text":"職業安全法嘛因為您現在那是專業信念但是職業安全法它是有法則的喔它是有法令的喔所以他們現在缺法的是職業安全法對他們的保障嘛你放在協會裡面根本就不能放嘛所以"},{"start":26133.721,"end":26148.146,"text":"這職業安全法的部分,就是我們的政府可以在消防法裡面把這個職業的消防人員的職業安全的部分給訂單裡面。這也是另外一個做法。我們本來就有在想說在消防法裡面要來修這個人的職業安全的部分。當然委員我們的不公的見解,你說你就要"},{"start":26155.828,"end":26162.433,"text":"好啦我原則性我同意啦但是我坦白跟你講我坦白跟你講職業安全法限定公務人員兼具勞工身份是可以適用只要你用那個協會那個協會就是社會團體我跟你講那個不是專法啦"},{"start":26184.932,"end":26211.817,"text":"所以我跟你說,你若要說這些,沒關係,你們既然有這樣做,我希望部長,你們好好跟那個勞動部,這裡好好商量一下,我會繼續追,我會繼續追,好不好?來,那其他那個一定,我很少的時間來,時間暫停一下,請那個,請那個我們法務部,還有我們那個,"},{"start":26213.251,"end":26214.351,"text":"今天我們院裡面有一個打詐的公聽會現在打詐"},{"start":26241.042,"end":26244.75,"text":"我們說實在的這件事因為很多同意也很多了現在三萬多件"},{"start":26247.793,"end":26257.938,"text":"詐騙八十幾億,我們說實在的這依效國際啦,依效國際。我告訴你沒問題就是說,全世界都有現在有一個組織,國際組織,他在統計全世界的那個詐騙。我們說詐騙通行證的國家,其實就是紐西蘭、新加坡、美國這些國家啦。"},{"start":26271.104,"end":26271.644,"text":"來,議長,我跟您說"},{"start":26285.647,"end":26312.342,"text":"來,唐部長,你對這個有什麼看法?簡單就好了。我們覺得源頭防治是特別重要,那包含說我們想透過那個電子簽章法案很快會送到這個櫃院,盡可能的讓這種假冒帳號或者假冒名人的狀況可以有所緩解。好,那個蔡部長?我們省十幾萬跟警察跟調查局的人,大家都很認真在打架。"},{"start":26314.807,"end":26333.055,"text":"謝謝林委員過程的質詢。謝謝陳院長的答詢。謝謝。接下來我們請登記第17號蔡委員其他質詢。"},{"start":26370.346,"end":26394.235,"text":"主席好大家好請陳院長內政部林部長麻煩請陳院長備詢麻煩請林部長謝謝蔡委員午安我坐在上面八年都已經快忘了站在這裡的感情今天讓我有機會再回味一下"},{"start":26398.871,"end":26426.414,"text":"院長我想今天我有注意到台中市政府又打算開始賣台中市的土地。我也看到了今天內政部林部長針對台中市賣土地特別發了一個公文提醒一下台中市。那我想剛剛我又看到台中市政府發的新聞稿說他不想鳥你。"},{"start":26427.478,"end":26456.314,"text":"簡單講我用白話文講就是他照常準備開始飆售臺中市政府的這些底廢地在我的看法上齁其實市政府賣土地不是什麼新鮮的事情每一個市政府我想林部長你也當過市長你也賣過土地但是我想市政府賣土地在這個階段裡面我們所面臨的挑戰有兩個第一個挑戰就是"},{"start":26457.546,"end":26476.358,"text":"到底市政府的市長也就是一個地方政府的首長他願不願意把年輕人的問題當作他施政的首要目的。換言之大家在談社會住宅如果市政府的所有的這些住宅用地都給他賣掉"},{"start":26478.151,"end":26479.772,"text":"今天台中市政府我把它做了一個統計"},{"start":26506.906,"end":26531.004,"text":"臺中市縣市合併之後歷任的市長胡市長大概賣了234億的土地林佳龍市長大概賣了75.5億的土地盧秀燕市長大概賣了504億的土地所以這個叫做賣土地的巨人但是如果我們來看一下臺中市社宅的狀況我們就可以很清楚的發現"},{"start":26532.365,"end":26560.59,"text":"從林佳龍市長開始規劃興建有18個地方5200多戶的社會住宅林市長跟盧市長交接的時候大概就是兩個市長在交接這個階段規劃興建的大概有兩個地方是1200多戶到盧市長自己任內五年的時間他只規劃了四個地方1600多戶那中央有十個地方大概6400多戶"},{"start":26562.796,"end":26582.606,"text":"所以我稱之盧市長跟台中市政府這個叫做蓋社宅的侏儒所以台中市除了一個賣土地的巨人而是蓋社宅的侏儒所以台中市的社宅在我的看法上這個目標是遙遙無期"},{"start":26584.352,"end":26611.562,"text":"我也看到臺中市政府發了一個新聞稿說臺中市中央給的目標是一萬四千戶的社會住宅我想請問您部長有沒有這個目標那這個目標的訂定是怎麼來的各位委員報告一下我們過去訂的的確是一萬四那不過剛剛特別提到這個賣土地的問題其實最近這大概三四年左右這個房價上漲"},{"start":26612.763,"end":26639.466,"text":"民眾其實是對這個很敏感那所以我們是非常希望說地方政府因為中央政府已經沒有在賣地那所以我們非常希望這個地方政府在飆售土地的時候要特別注意因為這個是會產生所謂的定毛的效果那這一次我為什麼特別提是因為這一次他定了200億的這個底價其實已經比市場的行情高了許多所以我們必須要提醒這個是"},{"start":26641.023,"end":26653.731,"text":"所以林副長我定卯作用我待會再跟你討論我們先把第一個問題解決所以臺中市政府這樣的賣土地而不願意把市政府的土地拿來蓋社宅5年時間只規劃了1600戶的這個情形"},{"start":26658.068,"end":26670.515,"text":"他還誇口說他達成了這個目標他達成了目標所以我想請中央是不是可以規劃一下在我的看法上台中市最少五萬戶的社會住宅是絕對跑不掉"},{"start":26671.618,"end":26685.837,"text":"那我們可不可以立刻,院長可不可以立刻進行檢討,將各縣市到底設宅需要幾戶,臺中市14000戶那個目標那個是水準太低啦,標準太低的目標。我剛才就在跟林部長在請教"},{"start":26687.119,"end":26707.464,"text":"就是說我們當時是因為蔡總統8年嘛社會住宅20萬戶嘛那直接興建的部分是這樣子可是未來那18年欸那是未來我們要為年輕人著想為中低收入著想我們的社會住宅我想最起碼要4、5倍以上才夠啦"},{"start":26707.967,"end":26713.432,"text":"所以那個是在蔡總統任期的這個目標。所以接下來我們應該在蔡總統這個目標之外,應該要有新的目標。所以台中市政府並沒有去把這樣的目標放進去,而只是"},{"start":26731.217,"end":26757.754,"text":"現在還在談過去那個8年的目標所以我希望內政部要緊述將這個未來到底要目標戶多少像台中市我認為最少要五萬戶啦我認為這個目標是一定要去追一定要去達成的那第二個目標就是剛剛你部長所講的這個台中市政府尤其是政府他的這個土地的飆售對台中市的地價有定毛的作用"},{"start":26758.615,"end":26779.978,"text":"那這一次它的底價比普周邊所有的土地交易價格大概貴了兩成。所以換言之我們可預期台中市政府如果土地出費流標,否則的話如果飆出去,那換言之周邊的地主未來賣土地只要跟著政府賣就好了,就漲兩成。"},{"start":26781.931,"end":26789.525,"text":"至少。至少嘛。最少就起兩下。標的時候可能還會有溢價。對對對我假設算最低標準用他的底價得標好了。"},{"start":26790.131,"end":26819.277,"text":"他最少就是告訴大家說台中市的土地硬要自己去,要繼續上漲,要讓年輕人在台中市更買不起房子。因為所有的建商很簡單嘛,建商是加工業嘛,他買了土地,做了設計,做了興建,然後最後把它賣掉嘛。所以當土地成本大幅上揚的時候,勢必未來的房價在台中市又要繼續飆漲,又讓更多的年輕人在台中市買不起房子嘛。"},{"start":26820.067,"end":26848.401,"text":"這個其實是很清楚的而定保作用如果是一般的這些私有土地的業者那政府當然我們只能透過相關的政策跟法規來規範但最可惡的是政府帶頭做這個事情這個才是讓人寒心才會讓人覺得難道我們的台中市政府難道盧市長完全沒有把年輕人的想法年輕人的痛苦年輕人的期待放在心上嗎"},{"start":26849.548,"end":26867.119,"text":"林部長我今天你發了這個提醒文給盧市長我希望是肯定的但是我也知道你發這個文其實我也覺得沒什麼用我想他民調很高他這個政治聲望很高接下來可能是總統的候選人"},{"start":26868.12,"end":26893.115,"text":"所以他不會區區一個內政部的部長對他來講是小兒科啦雖然我知道你是很善意提醒我們都希望政府非常用心中央政府已經非常用心在蓋社宅非常用心在希望土地不要再飆漲了所以你做內政部長你做這個工作是必要的但是我也知道沒有什麼用但是我在這裡要提醒內政部對於居住正義的問題"},{"start":26894.909,"end":26913.24,"text":"一方面要跟所有的社會大眾特別年輕人說清楚到底誰在蓋社宅誰在主老蓋社宅或者誰在睡覺不蓋社宅或者誰裝睡不蓋社宅我覺得內政部有義務要讓國人同胞特別讓年輕人知道的很清楚"},{"start":26914.042,"end":26941.136,"text":"所以內政部應該要定期公布我們對於涉宅推動這個政策到底多久我們會供給多少量供給的位置到底在哪裡這是中央蓋的還是地方政府蓋的我認為我們在涉宅政策上面內政部一定要有標準這個標準甚至是你手上有的資源跟地方政府未來的配合都要把這個考核放到裡面去"},{"start":26942.335,"end":26957.778,"text":"我覺得這個才是讓涉宰這個政策可以推動不要忘記這一次的很多的年輕朋友他的選票並不支持民進黨因為他認為民進黨對年輕朋友的這些呼聲他們的期待並沒有做到回應的狀況"},{"start":26959.008,"end":26986.528,"text":"所以這一次的這個事件正是讓大家把那個照妖鏡拿出來到底中央政府對社宅的態度是什麼到底每一個地方政府無論它是什麼政黨它對於社會住宅的態度是什麼誰真正的在呼應年輕人的期待我覺得這件事情內政部一定要去做到否則的話稀哩呼嚕的大家呼嚨一通我們的市長還說中央都沒蓋半棟最後發現自己資料錯誤還出來道歉"},{"start":26987.759,"end":27012.439,"text":"所以這個就是長期內政部或者中央被抹黑就是從這個地方來所以我希望內政部要加油我們的社宅政策我們還要再加把勁要比蔡總統過去8年的時間要蓋得更多要更加積極回應年輕人的需要這個是我對你的期待是謝謝委員我想那個賴總統他也有定了新的一個目標我們會全力來達成"},{"start":27013.6,"end":27036.106,"text":"第二個委員剛剛也特別提到即便是地方政府蓋的社宅其實中央政府不管是對土地對興建的這個成本我們都有補助補助沒有錯接下來院長我想那個辣椒粉毒辣椒粉的事件我今天早上也看到你發言我覺得很清楚是我們積極在邊境檢查所以所檢測出來的"},{"start":27037.489,"end":27056,"text":"我還是覺得說我們在手段上面可能要更積極一些也就是說我們在管理上應該要採取差別化管理我們現在譬如說光去年來自中國的辣椒粉不合格件數越來越多去年16件今年不到兩個月就有7件"},{"start":27056.68,"end":27081.572,"text":"所以換言之我們不是講中國是剛好這個事情是中國那特別在食安上面就是對食品的管理上面我們一定要差別就是雞優生啊不要耗費太多的公務人力在處理但是對於那些成績不好那些劣等生常常這個作怪常常讓我們台灣陷入食安的這個困難困擾的這個這些國家或者"},{"start":27082.427,"end":27110.948,"text":"這一種產品我們應該要差別的加強檢驗甚至最嚴重就像我們在檢查現在你的措施逐批檢驗這個就是最嚴格的標準而且我們最近還讓21家有不合格的產品的大陸的廠商我們暫停他的入口所以這個就是差別管理的手段一定要出來因為我們不可能什麼東西都逐批檢驗"},{"start":27112.146,"end":27138.586,"text":"這個是科學這個也是實務的問題所以我們一定要有辦法把那個差別的管理把它做出來同時不好的我們就要最嚴厲的手段那好的相對就可以鼓勵在相關的這個行政措施上面可以鼓勵這個是我大概一點小小的建議謝謝那最後我想這個謝謝院長謝謝我們的行政團隊對於台中市的重大幾個重大的交通建設在這個"},{"start":27142.506,"end":27162.352,"text":"謝謝委員這委員實在是給我們很多的指導我今天特別感謝是因為以前在上面都沒辦法感謝你因為你知道我這幾年來盯得非常緊王部長不知道去我那裡多少次了歷任部長都到我那個地方常常幾乎我們都在追這些案子"},{"start":27163.032,"end":27186.553,"text":"我在上面沒有機會公開的謝謝,所以今天有機會站在這裡,我就要特別表示感謝。但是我們感謝歸感謝,後面他還不是完工。例如說我們台中市捷運南線,在我的建議底下,我們中央先給他核定,不要讓台中市政府再繼續抹黑中央。所以中央先核定,地方再對計畫進行修正。我想請問部長,"},{"start":27187.947,"end":27212.361,"text":"地方政府的修正有沒有時程?什麼時候可以完成捷運南線的修正?因為不完成修正還是動工不了嗎?主要在過去有很多的問題最後的問題是在沙路站就是三個包括鐵路、南線還有平面沙路大橋的問題這個部分初步的方向委員有特別說這部分要趕快來進行"},{"start":27213.802,"end":27214.843,"text":"每三個月跟本席報告一次可不可以?"},{"start":27241.857,"end":27265.413,"text":"報告臺中市政府到底什麼時候完成修正因為捷運南線大家等著要動啊等著要趕快完工啊那他一定要報交通部對不對對所以你每三個月告訴我臺中市的進度我就定期公布看臺中市要拖到什麼時候才可以把捷運南線這個修正計畫把它做好那其實不只只有殺戮嘛其實還有"},{"start":27267.068,"end":27288.068,"text":"一直在主張的我們的第一站就是港務公司大樓跟捷運站的共同開發共同規劃甚至共購這個也是修正計畫還有地方政府自己核定到底要在平頂站或正陰站這個是地方政府核定這不是你交通部同意的因為場站的選址是地方的事情"},{"start":27317.531,"end":27327.87,"text":"謝謝蔡委員提倡質詢。謝謝陳院長。現在報告宴會。我們休息10分鐘。現在休息。辛苦了。"},{"start":27927.348,"end":27928.469,"text":"報告院會現在我們繼續開會接下來請萬委員美玲質詢"},{"start":27945.916,"end":27949.697,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我們有請陳建仁院長。再請陳院長備詢。好,院長好。院長,我想這個是您在520之前那應該是最後一次可以來質詢您了。那我想今天的議題其實非常的多。"},{"start":27971.003,"end":27995.156,"text":"首先我想請教一下您應該知道其實在聯合報每年的年底其實它有一個活動那這個活動您過去也有參與過就是它會請針對台灣的民眾然後請一些人寫出一個字代表整個台灣在這個段期間之內或者那一年內的一個社會的一個樣貌那在您的這個任內2023的時候我們看到那個字是缺這您有意向嗎?"},{"start":27998.529,"end":28007.753,"text":"因為我很早以前我曾經有寫過一個字被選為當年的字但是去年是缺這個我不知道因為好久沒看聯合報"},{"start":28008.749,"end":28009.929,"text":"以往也都很負面"},{"start":28032.436,"end":28055.737,"text":"他會很負面他可能反映的都是一些老百姓現在的一個新生民間的疾苦啦但是足以讓我們這執政的人來看一看什麼地方是應該我們要加強改善的反而我們是應該用正面去看待說反映出了這個問題所以我們我想本席就前年2022年的時候一個是漲那去年就是缺而缺這個事實在您執政的當行政院長這一年當中"},{"start":28056.998,"end":28071.143,"text":"我想今天早上我有聽到您在備詢的時候特別有講到我們看到漲這個字在早上好像您有回應說我們在今年電價確定要漲這是真的嗎?電價現在在請電價審議委員會來盤點因為每一年我們電價的審議委員會都會來就電價是否要調整來做一個討論所以我們現在確實有這樣的一個啟動討論的機制"},{"start":28086.816,"end":28089.506,"text":"所以聽起來是今年確定要漲有沒有說什麼時候會漲還是還在討論階段"},{"start":28091.363,"end":28116.418,"text":"一般是在4月1號公布了。都會在3月份討論有可能會要漲所以我在想當我們看到漲這個字的時候我們很希望看到它是漲薪資它是生育率漲正向的但是我們今天聽到漲電價我想大家其實是陷入很大的憂心因為那個沒有關係因為染料也在漲啦我們只能被迫接受嘛有很多原因但是我們來討論這個缺這個事情"},{"start":28118.979,"end":28134.909,"text":"我想在上一屆的這個會期當中我有跟您討論過缺兩樣事情本期非常在意我相信院長也有放在心裡一個缺護理師非常缺第二個就是我們的客運司機非常缺這兩件事今天"},{"start":28135.709,"end":28152.762,"text":"老問題但是越來越嚴重我必須還要再跟您繼續做討論那麼我們來看到缺護理人員這個部分根據全球資料庫網站最新的公佈臺灣在醫療照護指數上面再一次奪得了世界第一那這是我們共同的驕傲"},{"start":28153.783,"end":28175.493,"text":"那同時啊我們在這個調查報告中顯示在醫療可敬性醫療費用的性價比還有合理性我們也都是全球第一這也是我們大家共同努力來的我想這都是要這個讚許的啊那不過呢我們看到在平均餘命新生兒死亡率可避免死亡率疾病別死亡率以及癌症5年的存活率"},{"start":28175.953,"end":28199.37,"text":"等等非常重要的健康指標那也在國際期刊上面我們看到我們的排名竟然掉到了35到37的世界排名同時在亞洲各國我們還輸給了日本、南韓跟新加坡那當然這是有好的也有不好的那這都一定可以讓我們來參考但是院長你知道為什麼會出現這樣落差我想我們來討論看看"},{"start":28200.771,"end":28219.836,"text":"那在這個社區醫院協會的理事長我們朱毅宏他有說出一個說法他說台灣新生兒的死亡率、平均餘命等等這些指標落後其他的國家他認為凸顯出來在醫療人力和運算資源投入不足才有這樣的一個結果那當然我也看到我們區議員部長有回應說"},{"start":28221.016,"end":28221.776,"text":"我可以講一講護理師的不足"},{"start":28250.652,"end":28274.979,"text":"我覺得您聽這件事情非常的重要我有聽但是我覺得再來我會給您時間回答好不好那再來世界第一的這個醫療照護這麼棒的一個成績我們也不希望我們台灣的護理師的工作壓力也成為世界第一這都是我們不希望看到的那我想我對薛議員部長其實寄予厚望我想有一件事情我是非常肯定您的"},{"start":28275.439,"end":28298.044,"text":"在我們桃園疫情期間那個時候所有的診所上千家的診所沒有防疫的物資那我記得我在一個禮拜五的深夜打電話給您二話不說您去盤點你也沒有因為我不是執政黨的委員跟您反映這個問題你置之不理禮拜天我們9萬份所有的防疫物資來到了我們桃園那下放給所有的診所我想這件事情"},{"start":28298.624,"end":28322.48,"text":"那在當時的鄭文燦市長也知道我們都非常感謝中央不分黨派只有做防疫但是呢我們看到啊其實部長上來以後其實那一份肯定我想有稍稍失望這個我非常持平在講這件事情尤其我們看到這一次在衛福部所公告的夜班獎勵金的這件事情引發很多的爭議我想再來跟您這個回憶一次"},{"start":28323.14,"end":28340.516,"text":"我們看到不管是醫學中心區域醫院或者是地區醫院小夜班、大夜班這個獎金是不一致的這件事情在基層已經真的快要爆炸了那各界人士也給你很多的建言我們也有算出來地區醫院的護理師如果他一整個月他都是輪值大夜班這22天下來"},{"start":28341.877,"end":28370.816,"text":"每一個月他會比醫學中心薪資要少了8800塊一年下來超過10萬塊你知道這個對基層的護理人員來說非常不公平心理不舒服那也有很多的這個護理師大家呢就在想那是不是大家通通要往醫學中心去你是不是逼著地區醫院醫護人員護理人員去出走這是第一個那第二個呢這是上一次我有跟這個陳院長這個討論過的也就是我們老是只重視大夜班"},{"start":28371.676,"end":28397.134,"text":"但我們沒有說大夜班不重要而是我們覺得白班也非常的重要當然我也很肯定院長在上次我質詢完畢的時候您也接受了這樣子一個建議所以你也說到去年11月你有說你會研究我們白天班的工作繁重加級所以呢很棒這代表你也知道他們工作繁重那本期想請教一下院長現在這個工作繁重加級進度到哪裡了什麼時候會給予"},{"start":28398.135,"end":28415.564,"text":"現在在演繹中,我是不是請我部長來說明?好,那跟委員報告齁,那工作繁重加擠的這一個部分我們正在規劃設計,我預計大概在下半年就可以開始實施。下半年?對。有說幾月份嗎?"},{"start":28418.021,"end":28429.509,"text":"那幾月份我沒有辦法說得很確定。那院長,這樣子我覺得有點可惜。2020之前你有沒有辦法做到?我當然也是想越快越好,但是呢"},{"start":28430.407,"end":28452.998,"text":"就好像這個大小月班齁你看看不同等級的醫院就有很多不同不同的意見齁對院長520之前沒有辦法做到所以我們現在要加強來溝通來了解這是您提出來的如果可以在520之前做到那不是很完美嗎我當然很希望但是但是我們要實際一點所以要到下半年那下半年一定會做嗎"},{"start":28454.785,"end":28472.815,"text":"一定會因為這一個第一個要有預算預算的部分我們大概已經有了那我想如果今天還可以得到一個承諾下半年一定會做那麼我們也希望520之前如果我們沒有辦法去實施至少告訴我們大概在幾月份我們可以下去做"},{"start":28474.276,"end":28475.377,"text":"有12個措施,不是兩件事,12件事"},{"start":28494.318,"end":28515.9,"text":"好這是相關的措施那去年度考選部在11月9號突然公告說降低護理國考的門檻那要把難度比較高的也是比較重要的一門科目叫做基礎醫學2024開始起我們的比重要從原來的20%調降成10%而且這過程當中有一些粗糙所以不管是台大醫院"},{"start":28516.34,"end":28516.36,"text":"委員長"},{"start":28535.345,"end":28549.696,"text":"我們缺的從來不是叫做執照的人數而是能不能留得住這些護理師好的環境那接下來我要跟你討論的是就很重要的我也希望你能夠聽一下也就是說"},{"start":28550.276,"end":28566.136,"text":"根據衛福部自己給我最新的統計目前護理人員總職業率是63%領證的人數30%但職業的人數卻只有領證的人數是30萬人而職業人數卻只有18萬人就很多人不願意投入到這職場不是沒有人"},{"start":28566.536,"end":28566.856,"text":"三班互併筆入法"},{"start":28582.904,"end":28605.955,"text":"所以這個會變成一個惡性循環。所以當然本席更不以為然的還有一件事情就是其實我們在這個賴清德這個副總統他的在競選的時候政績有說到說要解決護理師荒他是要增加他去增加這個所謂的護理師的這個相關科系的招生名額上個會期我也講過這個方向真的是錯的"},{"start":28607.136,"end":28622.578,"text":"您聽聽看,我想我們教育部長也上來,我們一直以來統測護衛類的報考人數大概就是在3%多,這是第一個。第二個呢,我們看到這個表格,大家可以看一下,下一頁。"},{"start":28623.559,"end":28649.589,"text":"我們在這個相關的護理相關科系別五專二年制四年制學士後等等我們都可以看到注冊率都是在75%最多的在92%這代表什麼意思白話來說是我們都已經招不滿了你提高沒有意義你提高只是讓這個注冊率更低而已再來上面還發生一個問題院長不知道能不能看得出來也就是說很奇怪我們現在"},{"start":28650.489,"end":28650.97,"text":"我想我可以回答"},{"start":28670.132,"end":28697.737,"text":"院長我把他講完喔那我想因為數據在這個地方喔是不是啊要回去檢討一下第一個如果我們要提高這個掃聲明這個方向也錯了第二個這個方式也不對因為以前註冊率就是就是這個要問護理師學會跟護理師工會啦他們對於護理師在訓練的過程當中希望達到什麼樣的level那你可能也很清楚你可能專家比我清楚現在我們護理師希望每一個護理師都得到"},{"start":28698.197,"end":28714.444,"text":"比較完整的教育的體制。我想護理學會一向是如此。你也很清楚。所以你講的我認同,但我講的你沒有注意聽。你講的我完全認同。但是重點就在於,如果我們在國考那個階段,我們把最重要的"},{"start":28715.424,"end":28715.524,"text":"﹚一、二、3、4﹚"},{"start":28739.009,"end":28739.27,"text":"我剛才講過這個"},{"start":28761.139,"end":28778.192,"text":"讓副理人員願意留任,那這裡面有很多的措施,剛才已經講。那薪資是其中之一,當然是嘛,很重要。但是除此之外,他的這個就業的成就感,民眾對他的重視,以及他能不能有進修等等這些都很重要。"},{"start":28780.594,"end":28804.346,"text":"院長我想這些問題當然都很重要但是我相信在這個新思跟改善環境我想這個會後我將來我們在外環委員會還會再跟這個部長再來就教我們希望我們共同找出問題看到問題不用覺得說好像很可恥還是看到問題不想面對不是看到問題要高興因為我們就知道怎麼去解決了可是要面對那接下來我想"},{"start":28805.126,"end":28825.121,"text":"院長為什麼我討論過那麼多次那本席非常關心護理人員荒因為這關心的是關心的是全國人民的健康尤其在桃園院長知道嗎我真的覺得本席這個選區桃園真的很可憐桃園的這個平均床數在六都倒數第五而且每萬人口只有27.5張的一般病床"},{"start":28828.624,"end":28850.54,"text":"每萬人口只有27.5張一般病床只有2.68張的家戶病床這很可怕一萬個人只是去搶27張病床那你看現在護理人員不足我們還一直關床然後我們桃園市人口一直在增加所以這個問題非常恐怖所以你可以從這個數據上看到這在我們桃園它是一個嚴重的問題那再者再來"},{"start":28852.264,"end":28878.437,"text":"我正替我們桃園教區本來在這一次醫學中心的升格的評鑑我們要知道桃園有一個長庚醫院算醫學中心至於桃園人來說只能算0.3或0.5肩膀因為其實在新北市其實這個醫學中心大家都在共用的原本桃園地區所有的民眾們都引領期盼這一次的醫學中心的升格會是花落桃園"},{"start":28879.938,"end":28906.329,"text":"本來應該是在去年12月要公布的可是看起來選前沒有公布直到選後所以我們在桃園大家也都在說這莫非是這個衛福部行政院在懲罰我們桃園只因為桃園可能在這個立委的選舉國民黨六席權上結果原來啊連之前王必勝次長都常常跟我們說他非常肯定我們桃園不立議院我們有最好的醫師我們最好的護理師他們有最好的服務最好的態度最好的專業而這次縱見落馬"},{"start":28908.87,"end":28933.309,"text":"對他們來說對整個部桃來說是很大的一個挫折對桃園市民來說也是很大的不公平所以我想這就是我非常非常的期待我們能夠讓我們桃園的醫療能夠再升級一點好這個是過去了但是有一件我們現在病床數不足的問題部桃現在正在興建第二醫療大樓那我們也確定行政院已經合訂了對嗎對"},{"start":28934.96,"end":28935,"text":"總預算經費是85億對嗎?"},{"start":28954.799,"end":28963.483,"text":"85億對嗎?對,差不多。這個85億,其中自償性經費53億,要我們不逃自籌。非自償20億,地下佔備空間6億,這個部分中央由工建計畫來支應。然後我們醫療儀器的設備5億,如果這個工程順利完工,這個5億中央一樣從工建計畫當中會來補充。這出了一個問題了。"},{"start":28983.433,"end":29002.149,"text":"我想不逃去哪裡找這53億啊?顯然現在公共工程如果要我們的這個工程能夠順利都有一點困難所有工程都是所以看起來醫療儀器的設備武藝搞不好也會落在不逃的地方所有的醫院都是這樣"},{"start":29003.03,"end":29023.177,"text":"布陶現在的現狀讓院長知道一下那現在布陶準備要拿出的是他歷年來辛苦所賺積蓄所得40億拿出來好40億還是不夠怎麼辦他現在要再去貸款40億那為什麼還要貸款到40億呢因為我們有一個新屋分院也在蓋"},{"start":29024.097,"end":29051.955,"text":"第二醫療大樓現在也在蓋也是行政院合訂的合訂我的感謝然後呢我們這個部桃啊還有急症中心動力中心也都需要錢所以貸款40億那院長你不能光合訂啊然後不給錢啊委員我想你可能不太了解什麼叫做自償性經費為什麼叫做自償性因為一旦醫院開一擴增了以後呢他就會開始有這一個收入那這個收入呢他會慢慢的來償還"},{"start":29053.516,"end":29082.122,"text":"那這個衛福部的醫院通通是這樣子不是只有對桃園這樣所以我想而且每一個醫院也都是因為這樣但是他的治常性的部分都能夠達到目標嘛譬如說岐山醫院也好或者是台北醫院也好都是這樣子的那我們是一視同仁我們也知道桃園很重要所以你看看桃園我們馬上合併兩個醫院所以這個治常性不用擔心你不用替他們擔心"},{"start":29082.982,"end":29096.618,"text":"我非常理解但是我一定要替他們擔心真的因為我替他們擔心就是幫助我們全桃園市的市民的健康所以我相信您也很重視我相信我們薛瑞元這個部長也很重視所以本市也希望在這過程當中"},{"start":29097.779,"end":29113.201,"text":"有需要讓他們去花掉所有過去的積蓄這40億尤其這40億我的理解關於部桃很多的軟體設備的添購維修都會要用到這個錢將來會不會有排擠我也是希望在會後部長是不是能夠把部桃請來"},{"start":29115.043,"end":29143.975,"text":"那好好地開個會去研究一下那核定給我們以後啊這當然非常重要因為現在這第二醫療大樓啊要擴建大概400床的病床而且還要增加外科手術室負壓隔離病房高危險產房嬰兒室等等啊我們希望絕對不能延宕但是這不會是不逃啊自己就有辦法把它好好這個工程全部完成的我們希望中央啊衛福部也會協助他啦對就是希望衛福部要全力協助也希望啊就是"},{"start":29144.495,"end":29169.152,"text":"院長在柏林之前能夠再多關注一下這個案子能夠給予更多的補助那對布陶來講會更公平一些那所以這個議題我想會後我也希望有個機會跟我們薛瑞文部長我們再約個時間仔細的討論一下怎麼樣讓布陶這個工程盡快完成不過有一件事情我先跟委員做一個很簡短的報告我們的護理人力"},{"start":29170.012,"end":29180.531,"text":"往年的話都是12月開始減少那1月就一直降一直降到4月5月以後才上來今年因為我們的措施下去的話1月沒有減少"},{"start":29181.681,"end":29184.103,"text":"那我會找時間跟薛部長再來提出這件事情。"},{"start":29204.482,"end":29204.502,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":29225.367,"end":29239.618,"text":"有優惠有票沒有車這在很多地方都有那當然我想我們交通部也提出了獎勵的措施3億9千萬公共運輸駕駛擴大徵才獎勵方案那本來是希望招募客運駕駛1800人遊覽車司機3000人但目前指導到客運司機868人遊覽車司機94人"},{"start":29246.944,"end":29269.716,"text":"執行率剛好站上20%所以這執行率是非常差的那我本期希望部長跟院長可以再討論一下這樣的方案執行率這麼差需不需要再做一個調整那以逃課為例去年逃課二月份的時候跟交通部提報了149名司機的缺額透過這個方案也不過才增到了38名缺額高達111名"},{"start":29273.538,"end":29288.524,"text":"還有更離譜的是這個方案是去年3月實施的結果到去年12月我們發現你實施完這個方案全國客運的人數不增反減這是很誇張的事情所以這個政策顯然有需要調整跟改變的地方"},{"start":29289.624,"end":29305.895,"text":"當然過去跟部長跟院長在討論的時候與司法系也好與實際的狀況也好與你們對這個問題不夠了解也好常常都說要地方縣市政府也要自己來處理但我必須要講地方縣市政府財源狀況不一"},{"start":29308.257,"end":29325.551,"text":"所以沒有辦法每一個人都可以寄出像張善政市場這樣子業者提供2000塊我們再下8000每個月1萬給我們的這個司機讓他們可以留住不離開那甚至於在這個新考進來的這個司機員在訓練當中我們也可以撥錢給他但不是每一個縣市都做得到的"},{"start":29325.871,"end":29327.872,"text":"當然吶,這個缺司機最嚴重的代表性我想在我桃園吶也就是"},{"start":29342.437,"end":29361.804,"text":"五二零三A一六六二一三五六九零零五這都是原本今年要到期以後業者就不續約了當然部長那天有提到說你不會讓他斷線但你沒有提到你不會讓他斷線這個時間可以維持多久半年不會斷線一年永久不會斷線這是第一個問題"},{"start":29363.444,"end":29389.679,"text":"第二個就是說不只是剛剛所說的5203、1662、1356、9005包括我們的9023、9009、5009等等這些都是到臺北、新北非常重要的一個路線所以我是想請教我們的部長、院長我們可以承諾桃園這些連外道路的公車、國道客運都不會斷線這是永久的嗎?"},{"start":29391.247,"end":29406.372,"text":"公委報告事實上你剛才談到擴大徵才就業我們已經總共1454人全國的確在這個環境很多人疫情以後就不願意回來我上次提到因為地方的公車的部分這可能在市政府"},{"start":29406.732,"end":29410.933,"text":"我只是想請教您一下,您那時候回答的絕對不會斷線,指的是永久的嗎?所以只能做階段性的,做緊急階段性的處理嗎?我想喔,那個"},{"start":29427.938,"end":29450.145,"text":"部長跟院長我們再來討論一個問題我想這個科運商業同業公會全國聯合會在去年的10月17號曾經提出一個方案就是他們希望運價要調漲那也希望增加營運的補貼那這個方案我聽說還是在這個部長您的桌上那現在到了什麼樣的地方了我們過去的這個給"},{"start":29454.542,"end":29473.164,"text":"公車的這些補助有增加兩塊錢是給公車司機的啦這個在做那當然就是說審查過來的這個討論我們必須經過一個委員會那這個程序事實上沒有在我報告﹖所以還在審議還在審議委員那裡沒有在我桌子上因為我每天都會幫他看那我覺得啊既然我們有需要協助我們速度要加快"},{"start":29474.265,"end":29500.918,"text":"另外我想本席認為其實我們來把這個國道運價這客運的運價調漲這不是不可行那也就是說因為過去我們運價大概有17年左右不曾調漲那現在所有的成本都往上漲是可以考慮的時候那當然TPAS上路之後我們看到特別是桃園到台北桃園到新北的國道客運公車以及基隆到"},{"start":29501.858,"end":29523.789,"text":"臺北這是比較屬於叫做特殊通勤路線因為生活圈工作圈都在一塊所以剛才我們說到不管9005、9023、9009、5009現在的狀況其實都非常吃緊都是去的時候大排長龍常常過了兩三班都上不了車看起來是爆滿的量可是回程沒有客人"},{"start":29524.249,"end":29542.045,"text":"所以其實業者都還是虧損狀態那當然他們就會不想要開就不想要繼續行使這條路線所以我想我們是不是能夠部長在這邊跟我們承諾一下院長看看有沒有辦法支持我們來想辦法解決這樣的一個問題就第一個我們能夠在這個運價調漲的這件事情上面"},{"start":29544.087,"end":29560.947,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":29561.427,"end":29573.796,"text":"是不是可以把這個補貼在這個特殊的這個服務路線上面給予我們桃園或者基隆特別我們桃園再多一些這個補貼可不可以有這樣的一個這個方案來給我們"},{"start":29574.938,"end":29598.389,"text":"我目前有補貼機制基本上就是說印價跟實際成本的這個差有他的關係那剛才您提到如果他最後整個成本提高我們補貼本身就會跟著這個提高這個本來就會這樣做那現在這個本身要經過一個機制包括我們公路局的審查機制我想等他們審查機制出來我們再一一協助"},{"start":29599.668,"end":29627.544,"text":"我相信一定要審查啦沒有什麼事情是說了嘛他們可以做的喔那第一個速度要快第二個呢我想本席剛剛特別講到的桃園啊齁這些啊有非常多條我們的這個聯外聯外的這個通勤路線喔尤其是國道路線非常的多那這些比較特別的特殊服務的路線啊本身希望在這裡啊現請啊院長啊部長啊能夠針對我們這些路線讓他們能夠繼續安心的行駛下去讓我們桃園市的市民"},{"start":29628.284,"end":29644.726,"text":"國道路線上要往返臺北新北這種大共同生活圈的工作圈不至於沒有公車可以搭那也會失了TPAS的一個美意能不能給我們這個特殊服務的路線能夠提出一個補貼的方案"},{"start":29645.781,"end":29670.633,"text":"我們沒有辦法說特別,因為國道科研全國都有,但是我們是確保他通行不會停止。你如果沒有一個特殊服務路線的補貼方案,你的確保很難有幸福度。我意思說不要用特殊,比如說如果他成本提高以後,我們就是審查通過,我們就補貼。我想這個是我今天跟您提出來的。"},{"start":29671.573,"end":29672.293,"text":"最後我想那個院長"},{"start":29693.288,"end":29693.788,"text":"我們修一下這個表格"},{"start":29709.321,"end":29730.286,"text":"那這當中我們也看到因為不斷的去流標有一個很嚴重的狀況出來了我們看到在這個臨時軌的電子連鎖系統工程第一次招標的預算8億多決標的金額12億增加了3億多這還不是最嚴重的往下看我們在中壢車站的鐵路地下化已經決標了"},{"start":29731.206,"end":29747.785,"text":"他第一次開標124億然而最近的這次開標絕標出去155億這個相差31億那更遑論桃園這個車站鐵路地下化中路車站鐵路地下化都還沒有標出去我們就個別增加了26億跟35億都還標不出去這個問題非常嚴重"},{"start":29752.23,"end":29753.131,"text":"謝謝萬委員美玲的質詢,也謝謝陳院長。"},{"start":29781.226,"end":29786.408,"text":"接下來我們請登記第19位黃委員秀芳請質詢。謝謝院長,我們請陳院長跟交通部部長。"},{"start":29820.351,"end":29834.995,"text":"謝謝院長我記得我在2016年剛就職上任立法委員的時候我在第一個會期同樣質詢林全院長就是有關彰化的鐵路高架"},{"start":29835.655,"end":29857.606,"text":"那時間也經過了8年那我還是在第一會期這個第11屆的第一個會期同樣在質詢我們的陳院長彰化的鐵路高架真的講得非常的久那在這個兩年這個差不多接近兩年的時候行政院已經這個核定那現在是進入到綜合規範對"},{"start":29859.347,"end":29882.299,"text":"我看到綜合規劃將近兩年的時間這個綜合規劃還是停在到底是要三軌或四軌還沒有確定那我是不是可以請院長或者是部長跟我回答一下因為我覺得總是要有一個時間要不然可能在時間再過了四年可能還在討論所以我覺得地方都等不及了是不是可以請院長來回答"},{"start":29882.879,"end":29909.776,"text":"我目前是如果成整個台鐵的營運來講要試軌因為山海縣的會籍就是在彰化這個地方我們是朝這方面來進行那目前中國規劃已經到結束現在剩下最後一個課題就是現在的彰化檢修廠要移到哪裡那過去他是放在花壇花壇是因為他往北嘛往北他可以經過彰化台中"},{"start":29910.509,"end":29931.8,"text":"那後來在這個縣政府是希望說能夠移到大渡去那大渡的話就是他往北就是這個臺中了所以彰化服務不到那兩個各有他的比如說在花壇有徵收的課題那目前這個部分我們是希望在商業跟地方政府做一個討論我們初步還是希望在花壇以台鐵的營運來講"},{"start":29934.002,"end":29947.242,"text":"現在的這個檢修廠就在彰化站的南端嘛。它的重點就是要往北,因為它很多是從花壇到南港或花壇到花蓮的這個車子。如果在這個大渡的話它就要回車。"},{"start":29950.432,"end":29963.949,"text":"這個可能是技術性的吧那是不是有可能去克服如果說按照目前的這個計畫可能要徵收可能有35公頃那徵收這個這個民地或者是民房可能是"},{"start":29964.589,"end":29964.609,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":29988.656,"end":29988.676,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":30004.517,"end":30004.537,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":30023.05,"end":30030.596,"text":"目前的進度是怎樣?目前就是最後在這個檢修廠的位置。我想最後大概這個問題,綜合規範已經做差不多了。最後就是靠這個在三頁會做跟地方政府做最後的確定。"},{"start":30050.27,"end":30077.518,"text":"所以3月份會做最後的確定我想中央跟地方一定要坐下來好好談然後要互相了解怎麼樣才是最好的方案我也希望委員有機會的話也請縣政府也跟我們這邊能夠坐下來好好談然後彼此了解需要那如果真的是需要再發談的時候那怎麼來解決我是覺得溝通是很重要"},{"start":30078.354,"end":30079.676,"text":"現在的檢修廠很多都是"},{"start":30094.775,"end":30094.795,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":30110.177,"end":30125.756,"text":"我想這方面我們也有跟張華縣政府做過討論那當然他最大的壓力來自於說這個拆遷啦拆遷這個是他最大的壓力但是我覺得要不要一起克服然後讓民眾也不要太吃虧我想這方面我們可以再跟他討論"},{"start":30126.741,"end":30152.442,"text":"那是全部都會在花壇還是有一部分會在這個大都或者是有一部分會在二水目前我們是在花壇就是說因為你了解嘛彰化鐵路高架以後他爬不上去所以要往南跑所以有一塊基地做往北車輛的這個檢修廠現在目前我們是希望在花壇大都已經要往南因為他主要花車都往北的你這樣服務不到彰化"},{"start":30153.618,"end":30157.639,"text":"所以我這邊真的要再次的拜託行政院還有我們的交通部這邊真的針對這個議題這個重大的建設真的要費心一點而且"},{"start":30173.817,"end":30197.184,"text":"要定期跟地方政府要去溝通要不然地方政府如果說是中央卡他一直都不動的話其實我相信院長在這個這次的選舉你應該也聽到很多就是地方政府就一些重大建設都說中央卡中央卡地方政府的建設那我是認為這個重大建設是不論是中央跟地方是一起的"},{"start":30198.044,"end":30223.131,"text":"所有的民眾看到就是說這個到底有沒有進度,大家不會去分說這個是中央的權責或是地方的權責,不會。所以就是說拜託這個行政院這邊真的針對這個彰化的鐵路高架,真的要費心,因為讓它有進度。那我相信院長你在去年11月的時候你有自己親自到彰化的這個扇形車庫,"},{"start":30224.171,"end":30224.191,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":30241.292,"end":30262.509,"text":"所以感覺就是說整個彰化影響最大就是整個鐵路高架彰化目前沒有比較重大的一個建設那就是鐵路高架還有捷運綠線還有捷運綠線所以我拜託這個院長還有部長真的針對這一部分真的要用心那是不是可以給我們一個期程比如說剛剛部長講剛剛部長講3月份你們會這個"},{"start":30266.852,"end":30267.252,"text":"好不好?"},{"start":30293.769,"end":30303.616,"text":"另外一個我要問的是捷運,這個捷運,院長你知道?我知道,這是綠線延伸嘛,綠線延伸彰化。院長去年在選舉的時候,"},{"start":30308.979,"end":30335.247,"text":"台中捷運綠線延伸到彰化北延到大坑南延到彰化那這個也是地方覺得可以帶動地方發展的一個很重要的軌道建設剛剛我講的鐵路高架的建設那還有一個就是台中捷運綠線延伸到彰化那很高興的也很感謝就是說行政院也通過就是可行性評估是有條件的通過那就是未來這個在綜合規劃之前"},{"start":30338.368,"end":30361.736,"text":"這個東張的這個擴大都市計畫要聯動要一起一起嘛那我也希望也要拜託就是說因為這個捷運綠線未來這個是也是影響到整個彰化的發展因為我們是期待臺中捷運綠線延伸到彰化如果未來到彰化之後那未來再規劃到彰化的鹿港"},{"start":30362.316,"end":30391.191,"text":"那這個是可以整個帶動整個彰化的一個都市發展那我希望就是說也拜託院長針對這一部分也是要請中央跟地方要一起配合委員你講到很大的重點就是因為在這個延伸到彰化的這個部分的這個都市計畫的部分現政府扮演一個很關鍵的角色那當時我們也一直盼望著能夠在"},{"start":30391.971,"end":30408.729,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":30410.417,"end":30426.764,"text":"所以我就說希望就是未來是鐵路高架或是台中捷運綠線因為一般的民眾他不會分說這個是中央權責或是地方的權責只要是地方政府說這中央卡他"},{"start":30427.404,"end":30444.051,"text":"議長你不覺得這一次就是你一直聽到就是中央在卡地方的這樣的聲音嗎?所以說我們也要拜託委員我本身也要跟民眾講一個建設可以成功或不能成功其實中央、地方兩方面都很重要如果說地方沒辦法配合、沒辦法做"},{"start":30451.614,"end":30463.861,"text":"這我們就要講清楚,像這個綠線的延伸彰化一塊,我們真的很擔心的是說中華營自己的綠色計畫的部分是不是做好,這點是我們到現在還沒信心,說實在的,但是這一定,但是"},{"start":30470.385,"end":30475.969,"text":"所以我一家就是說我當一個民意代表那我也希望就是說中央跟地方一起合作那地方可能碰到一些問題那是不是也拜託中央這邊來協助讓進速讓這個鐵路高架還有台中捷運綠線能夠進速"},{"start":30498.644,"end":30508.291,"text":"這個能夠在綜合規劃之前,當然就是說這個章化的東章的這個都市計畫能夠趕快來進行。那確實就是說……那都市計畫有什麼問題要請教,我也可以請那個賴正波來幫忙,到三天。"},{"start":30515.555,"end":30521.877,"text":"所以就是說我一件拜託就是說我們應該中央跟地方也要有一些時間比如說幾個月幾個月內大家一起合作一起討論碰到什麼樣的問題那那個期程"},{"start":30536.101,"end":30553.114,"text":"﹗"},{"start":30553.214,"end":30570.627,"text":"我們想這樣,我們看什麼事情是內政部國土署可以做的,什麼是交通部可以做的,什麼是管政府要做的,我們把它分得清楚。像你說三個月給你們報告一次,這沒問題,但是報告一次的時候,我們也要看什麼單位應該負責的部分。"},{"start":30576.432,"end":30579.935,"text":"院長我要講的就是說軌道建設也是我們在這個前就是小英政府時期我們講的就是"},{"start":30596.949,"end":30613.077,"text":"很重要這個前瞻基礎建設裡面的軌道建設這個部分台中捷運綠線是這個軌道建設之一那78年都快過了那都還在都還在剛可行性評估才剛通過所以我是"},{"start":30614.978,"end":30634.296,"text":"認為說這個應該是政府的一個重大建設是中央跟地方大家一起合作就是不分這個是地方的事情當然就是說我們一起把這建設把它完成因為我們知道說臺灣人很喜歡到日本去玩那為什麼很喜歡到日本去玩"},{"start":30634.616,"end":30650.606,"text":"﹚"},{"start":30650.919,"end":30674.346,"text":"其實交通部因為金還要死去,說我國政府趕緊做什麼事情,那就是他們金,但是一邊金就不好,那要兩邊。我們交通部實際上在軌道建設,你看這一次綠線延伸,我們會可行性的核定,還有有條件性的核定,就是我們也急著要把它趕快推出來。所以說這個我們會全力以赴。"},{"start":30677.307,"end":30703.49,"text":"好,那剛剛部長也在這邊,其實在剩下幾秒鐘的時間,我希望說部長可能要去討論一下整個臺灣的這個道路,大家講的這個道路可能對行人很不友善,可能要去做一個整體的一個盤點,那如果說讓開車的人或者是這個行人都要安全,"},{"start":30704.07,"end":30705.232,"text":"我跟委員報告現在院長的合作"},{"start":30737.097,"end":30740.879,"text":"謝謝黃委員秀芳的質詢也謝謝陳院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第20號呂委員玉琳質詢謝謝院長請陳院長再請陳院長備詢"},{"start":30768.516,"end":30772.685,"text":"六人午安 郭卿麟今天再來一天 我是最後一個"},{"start":30773.447,"end":30799.434,"text":"所以我們可以慢慢來回答首先請問院長因為我們兩岸的局勢一直在升溫雙方的互信基礎非常的薄弱那尤其這一次的大陸快艇翻覆的這個事件在2月14號發生那當時他進入我們金門的海域的時候海巡署第一時間他是需要去上船去來做檢查但是大陸的漁船拒檢"},{"start":30800.194,"end":30822.111,"text":"而且他在逃逸的時候捨行去碰撞到那在2月20號的時候我們海巡署特別的表示因為大陸漁船他聚解而發生碰撞所以現在確定想請問的是院長是因為碰撞而發生翻覆的情形嗎這有沒有相關聯這個已經請相關的專家"},{"start":30828.522,"end":30856.542,"text":"小組在做鑑定現在鑑定結果還沒有出來現在確定是傳之有凹痕嗎?就是碰撞碰撞是跟這個翻覆有關係囉有關案情的部分跟委員報告謝謝您的關心有關案情的部分目前都在檢察官的偵辦的過程之中有檢察官全盤的在掌握那有關案情的說明我們認為說任何一方的說明都是片面之詞那就是要真相"},{"start":30857.422,"end":30857.562,"text":"所以院長"},{"start":30882.225,"end":30890.895,"text":"因為現在就是沒有影像無法還眼所以我們真相還是要釐清在這個當下我們就是希望我們可以溝通協調把各方的問題找出來解決這個歧見"},{"start":30897.59,"end":30925.128,"text":"而且現在的話沒有辦法達成共識是目前罹難的家屬是希望把罹難的這個遺體跟船隻可以送回大陸但是我們海巡署是無法接受的報告委員兩個部分一個部分是有關於案情的偵查這個部分沒辦法透過溝通協調這絕對是檢察官他的偵辦才能夠去懷疑因為我們是尊重檢察官的偵辦但是我們希望趕快"},{"start":30926.249,"end":30927.07,"text":"所以你現在對此委員．他現在已經宣布"},{"start":30947.41,"end":30954.792,"text":"這件事情目前因為個案被做這樣的政治的連結我們非常的不樂見但是我們比較不宜說在這個時候我們就去說這是一個如何的常態如何的長遠"},{"start":30975.137,"end":30997.265,"text":"現在他已經進入我們金門的海域了,那海巡署應該有什麼應變的措施?我們都有應處,在台灣的海域不管是各國的船隻,不只是中國的船隻,越南的船隻,或者是甚至於哪一國的船隻,我的舉例並不代表他們會進來。任何一個國家的船隻在我們所執法的海域,只要一直進來,"},{"start":31003.106,"end":31027.133,"text":"我們都有應對。都派船出去應對。我們會廣播。堅守海域的安全。那是因為現在有M503我們整個的航線衝擊了我們整個非安的安全。但是我們在這種情形之下我們看到的我們對大陸的嚴正抗議是必要的。但是你禁止了我們台灣的團客赴大陸。這個是在懲戒"},{"start":31028.473,"end":31054.955,"text":"大陸來代表著來對我們國家的尊嚴嗎?還是說在犧牲了我們臺灣我們國民的這個旅遊的旅遊業者和我們國民旅遊的權益嗎?我想任何國家兩個國家在旅遊觀光上呢應該是彼此互惠的那臺灣呢一向就是准我們的這一個"},{"start":31057.018,"end":31059.059,"text":"是這樣子才互相有善意嗎?"},{"start":31085.846,"end":31112.527,"text":"王部長我記得你有說過喔在我們總統當選人賴清德總統他的這個當選的時候他特別有講到要多多釋出善意而且也會開放我們的團客的來往嘛那尤其是我們在部長在去年11月的時候也有宣布開放在3月1號就開放這個入客要來台嘛"},{"start":31113.234,"end":31113.354,"text":"我跟你們報告"},{"start":31140.885,"end":31160.012,"text":"如果逆差公關逆差800億損傷的是比如說以桃園來講我們的旅宿業者公關的這個餐飲業者是損失在他們身上這先跟委員報告第二個營業者損失我們現在已經3月1號到5月底我們知道因為組一個團三個月嘛所以我們當時就算這樣讓他這個團都出去"},{"start":31160.672,"end":31172.382,"text":"所以這個都出去所以你認為6月1號禁止就可以嗎?你要知道7、8月是暑假很早就把這個團隊團客的都賣出去喔旅遊的單價都賣出去喔這個都算了7、8月這個也算嗎?我跟委員報告7、8月就可以併團請他併進來"},{"start":31177.947,"end":31196.677,"text":"另外他們現在最大的7、8月是暑假要怎麼樣併進來呢?第一個如果能併團不能併團的部分現在最大的要補償嗎?現在最大一筆就是航空公司的訂金這個我們現在米朗姐來幫忙他們所以部長你答應要補償就對了這個部分我們在處理中處理是補償嗎?就是"},{"start":31200.539,"end":31218.558,"text":"當然就是說溝通看他最後的大概有什麼損失啊所以剛剛聽到部長你特別講說這因為是大陸陸客不來我們一直去的話這個有逆差對不對800億選擇了我自己對有逆差那我們相對來講的話如果說這樣講本席就看了一下子喔像我們2022年跟2023年進口"},{"start":31222.041,"end":31239.093,"text":"美國進口的這個豬肉啊他就成長了百分之一千兩百八十三那這也是貿易的逆差那我們是不是要終止這個中斷這個美國的這個貿易逆差那是豬肉欸不是貿易豬肉也是貿易啊也是逆差啊"},{"start":31240.353,"end":31259.743,"text":"所以我們要整體性,我們要以觀光產業,不能因為是逆差,我們要去發展其他觀光產業,對不對?我們要從別的地方來補這個缺點嗎?不管哪一個產業,兩個國家如果有互信、有對等,然後彼此很好的交流"},{"start":31260.243,"end":31271.611,"text":"這就是善意的回應所以觀光也好所以善意是互相的啦互相才能夠所以院長的意思說他大陸客來的話我們的臺灣的團客才可以去了就基本的這樣子的說法嗎"},{"start":31280.437,"end":31288.885,"text":"不是我要呼籲院長我們要共同的來解決溝通協調才有共識解決這問題一起努力我們現在是討論觀光產業啦所以請王部長這個部分的話我們要看觀光產業因為我怎麼"},{"start":31301.476,"end":31323.065,"text":"你瞭解這觀光產業呢?就是說2019年我們的所有的這整個觀光這個國際觀光客有1186萬嘛你特別在去年的時候你也說你有信心今年會達到1200萬對不對那你的信心那入客不來的話入客佔了271萬"},{"start":31325.166,"end":31339.219,"text":"但將近四分之一,你們要怎麼補呢?我舉個例子嘛,去年我們本來說是六百萬人次的觀光人數,我們沒有看到對岸的善意,可是我們從"},{"start":31341.701,"end":31349.327,"text":"所以臺灣是四處善意,我們現在來解決問題,院長、黨結組都已經提出到這個問題上面,現在部長要解決我們觀光人士的問題啊,他已經誇下海口說要1200萬嘛,1200萬,國際有這麼多國家嗎?你只有陸克而已嗎?"},{"start":31361.337,"end":31362.818,"text":"我們看到喜歡來台灣的觀光客裡面尤其是"},{"start":31378.203,"end":31398.781,"text":"港澳、日本、韓國是前三名的這個是我們的重點目標對對對那我本席在這邊建議就是說除了這個鄰近我們這個三個國家之外我們是不是還可以開發到像歐美國家歐美國家我們看到他的人次大概30萬人嘛那港澳的話是120萬人次喔"},{"start":31400.743,"end":31416.117,"text":"所以我們是不是要開辦他那邊有個辦事處多的宣傳來補助這個人事呢?我們現在去年大概16個辦事處最近今年包括印度跟歐洲本來就有"},{"start":31416.818,"end":31417.839,"text":"因為這個消費這個市場會比較大一點比較高一點是嗎?"},{"start":31436.038,"end":31458.633,"text":"對,歐洲過去來台灣比較少,比起來因為比較近啦,東岸比較近。因為距離的關係啦,跟對台灣人的不了解,所以要去多宣傳嘛。對,這個是我們重點之一。是,好,所以我們希望我們兩岸的關係趕快都能夠在這個開春的時候能夠春暖花開,也能夠撥雲見日,好好的兩岸釋出善意,才能真的來解決這個問題啦齁。"},{"start":31460.414,"end":31482.285,"text":"接下來本席要談的就是我們桃園跟台北、雙北、新北都是一個共同的生活圈那尤其是我們在整個基礎建設以外的完善還有產業還有很多的工作的機會都會連結在一起尤其是我們這次桃園也有來申請"},{"start":31483.618,"end":31511.501,"text":"申請聯合醫學中心很可惜沒有在評比裡面前面有委員提到這個問題本心想救教的就是說我們桃園物理醫院也有來申請我們看到整個臺北地區申請合格有10個醫院那整個北區的話有3個醫院來申請只有2個"},{"start":31514.776,"end":31537.496,"text":"請問這兩個在哪裡?一個在新竹一個在桃園一個在林口的長庚醫院嗎?所以這個我要就教的就是我們薛副長我們醫學中心的門檻是要多少人才有一個醫學中心?本來的規劃是200萬人桃園有多少人口?"},{"start":31538.673,"end":31548.065,"text":"那是要一個區一個區北區嘛北區北區是炒豬鳥那台北新北這個雙北有10所醫院為什麼"},{"start":31548.988,"end":31568.019,"text":"我們桃園一所醫學中心都沒有剛剛特別講的就是林口的長庚醫院他離新北最近大概都服務於新北的人那你現在何止你一所在新竹新竹在這個一兩年的時候我們桃園增加的人口數將近有12萬13萬"},{"start":31570.541,"end":31587.082,"text":"新竹增加的人口只有5萬,我們為什麼桃園不能夠升格,不能有醫學中心,我們桃園有234萬人口欸。所以我們整個醫療非常匱乏的情況之下,所以我們非常不了解為什麼我們沒有被審查通過啊。"},{"start":31587.983,"end":31588.604,"text":"請院長本席有個建議啦"},{"start":31613.888,"end":31614.209,"text":"哪一個?哪一所?"},{"start":31623.735,"end":31625.716,"text":"應該是再努力就會有,因為今年是差一點點"},{"start":31653.786,"end":31674.281,"text":"某一個項目的話因為沒有達標所以就就沒有哪個部分沒達標在醫院評鑑的部分有一個有一個部分病床數還是醫療是什麼原因還是醫療項目就是我所知道的是跟資訊系統所以他現在是準醫學中心了"},{"start":31675.795,"end":31682.76,"text":"所以醫學中心的話表示我們衛福部會繼續輔導嗎?當然啦,那是我們的意願我請院長跟部長要重視桃園234萬我講很多遍了"},{"start":31690.851,"end":31712.968,"text":"所以請重視我們的醫療那尤其是現在我們桃園國軍總醫院現在要蓋新的醫療大樓會增加到病床數有876床所以我也請重視我們桃園國軍總醫院它是在南區剛剛講的部立院是在北區讓我們南北醫療能夠均衡"},{"start":31713.709,"end":31732.405,"text":"平衡之下,我也請把這兩所列為準醫學中心,讓我們的醫療能獲得更完善好不好。我說他們現在都已經升格為醫療中心了,不只是醫療大樓病床的問題,還有很多項目,所以也是可以符合大家的規定嘛。"},{"start":31733.166,"end":31759.066,"text":"整合的標準我知道有整合標準我現在是建議好不好那我們市政府也會提出整個完善的輔導他們要努力達到標準這是根據專家的醫院評鑑而來的所以在這個準醫學中心之前可不可以我們桃園市政府就先來找一些地方我們也評鑑好幾個地方提出了幾個地方來做聯合診所"},{"start":31761.487,"end":31788.649,"text":"跟委員報告齁,如果是醫院是小於100床以下的,那市政府就可以核定了。超過100床以上才需要送到...聯合診所欸?聯合診所基本上都是在市政府就處理了。診所啦,沒有住院的那一種診所。還是要送衛福部來輔導?沒有,就是市政府就可以核定了。可是我們醫療的資源啊?"},{"start":31793.641,"end":31820.877,"text":"沒有,這剛剛委員講的是診所嘛,阿如果是醫院當然就有醫院的規定,醫院就是有收住院的病床嘛。所以我們這兩所都可以了嘛齁,兩所這個部桃跟我們桃園國軍總醫院,它下蓋新的醫療大樓9月份就蓋好了,今年9月份就會蓋好了。是啦,我們都知道我們這空窗期還有一些聯合診所,我們請桃園市府這邊也趕快的來把這個完善的計畫做出來齁,好不好。"},{"start":31822.073,"end":31837.428,"text":"好那接下來這一聊講完我們想跟我們部長討論的就是龍科三期龍科三期謝謝薛部長我必須要講一下"},{"start":31839.588,"end":31862.748,"text":"院長在前行政院長蘇貞昌跟行政院的副院長鄭文燦接連的禁制宣布台積電的1.4奈米先進的這個製程會在龍潭然而台積電自始至終都沒有明確的表態要進駐龍潭草率的把科技產業當成選舉的支票讓台積電龍潭設廠產生變數"},{"start":31868.991,"end":31885.072,"text":"民眾直到2023年的7月份竹科管理局召開了公聽會前才知道自己的土地被劃設在農科三期的預定範圍內,所以溝通協調慢半拍才導致民怨。"},{"start":31886.209,"end":31909.675,"text":"我想這一件事情能夠成功是有公論不是只有像你念的這樣但是我想國科會這一邊也可以國科會、竹科、管理局那時候7月25號的時候在開公聽會的時候所有的民眾都已經反映了這個就是溝通不了慢半拍沒有溝通清楚提早宣布做選舉支票"},{"start":31912.52,"end":31939.03,"text":"才會產生的情形那本席要跟我們主委所講的跟院長所談的就是現在農科三級一定要繼續開發因為農科12期已經飽和了現在農科三級繼續開發的情形之下我們雖然是台積電我們還是會繼續來爭取但是我們有其他的產業像輝達輝達他現在也宣布了"},{"start":31940.23,"end":31956.557,"text":"他的物流中心在我們航空城的大園還有呢就是這個AI的這個研發中心我們就可以爭取來到我們的榮科三期所以我們在這個開發的時候我們是不是要先來找一些科技產業也來進駐我們的榮科三期呢"},{"start":31959.827,"end":31981.464,"text":"那個我跟這個委員報告事實上我們這個竹科管理局持續在跟農科那邊的居民有沒有去談找其他的科技產業我們持續會來跟居民溝通看看有哪些地方我們可以來處理事實上最近也會有一些溝通的這個公聽會"},{"start":31983.154,"end":32009.564,"text":"我們是希望在這個繼續開發我們現在直接講的你們也繼續都會再開發而且要邀集其他的科技產業進來但是要重要我剛剛講的溝通所有我們的鄉親的土地跟他們的這個居住權我們要溝通清楚不要溝通到一半而已讓我們的產業跟我們的民眾跟我們的這個整個科技"},{"start":32011.444,"end":32038.895,"text":"政府都能夠三贏的局面這才是最好的解決方式事實上我們也會跟當地的政府一起來合作事實上當地的那個政府應該對當地的居民應該是最了解那那個持續在進行當中而且現在特別有講到就是說在這個上半年今年的上半年還要再開兩次的公聽會嘛現在已經快要三月了你什麼時候再開兩次公聽會你的期程在什麼時候三、四月應該會啟動"},{"start":32040.299,"end":32042.14,"text":"接下來本席要繼續討論的就是我們桃園的建設"},{"start":32066.718,"end":32067.899,"text":"桃園鐵路"},{"start":32082.21,"end":32082.83,"text":"關於委員報告,現在它是個主體的標"},{"start":32104.896,"end":32129.085,"text":"在應該一個月內全部都會發報完畢所以主要的都會在去年的確有一年非常不順利都一直留標現在我們居然跟我說明說現在有兩標已經審查過了審查過就馬上公佈誰了另外兩標正在審查就是有廠商投進來所以主體標都沒問題但是唯一的這個在桃園車站的標會碰到這個文資的課題"},{"start":32130.425,"end":32157.893,"text":"這個部分是他們現在最擔心的。因為在我們憑證段的時候那個新光路那個平交道要做臨時軌嘛。去年大概10月要封路做臨時軌結果一直都沒有。我不曉得工程卡到哪裡。一樣就是花包不順利經費有點不足。那現在第一個我們在提這個修正計畫但最重要的工程在這個主體主體的這個四個標在一個月內應該都會花包完成。"},{"start":32158.554,"end":32163.848,"text":"我想說臨時軌的部分包括我們預算的調整也趕快來做所以我想說會趕快來追上這個進度"},{"start":32167.732,"end":32195.072,"text":"應該要讓整個工程能夠如期如質所以我剛剛特別提到的就是我們新光路這個品交道那因為我們南端的出土的位置不適當在666前面那因為這個問題我們附近十幾個里根包括我們張市長我們也都溝通在跟交通部這邊溝通協調現在已經拍板電了要南移1.2公里在鹿橋南路那這個計畫也要鐵道姐來做計畫送交通部再到行政院請問"},{"start":32196.733,"end":32212.083,"text":"現在送出了沒有?是,他還沒送到交通部。因為我跟委包,因為全面都進行一陣子齁,那你這個憑證的難以齁,他重新要做一點初步的可行性,所以他還需要時間。我知道他們現在加速在進行啦,也是。"},{"start":32212.989,"end":32226.555,"text":"這個是去年差不多9月的時間現在到這麼久了現在因為他只是難以1.2公里只要做環差而已啊很快的啊那請問部長什麼時候送進交通部在行政院他們現在他還在進行中還沒有給我時間點還沒有送上來大概多久現在加速中"},{"start":32239.005,"end":32259.753,"text":"我們希望整個工程都能夠順利那尤其是我們剛才講的整個計畫你們的發包的問題預算的問題預算穩定你發包才會順利才讓工期如期如質的完成所以請部長你們整體的要盤整要去精算一下那到時候不要跟我們講什麼缺工缺料的問題"},{"start":32260.913,"end":32276.715,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":32277.035,"end":32291.711,"text":"我們王副長要重視一下我們平鎮車站必須要有大車站所謂新都心帶來地方的繁榮發展才有讓我們建制這鐵路過去的這個如期的更加的加倍的效果好不好是"},{"start":32292.792,"end":32309.304,"text":"這一個部分我想說大車站計畫他重點在都市計畫。我知道臺灣市政府在延耐。都已經在做了。對在進行。我想他提出來以後有些都市計畫程序或是因為基本上車站旁邊跟這個土地開發這也是我們期待的。"},{"start":32309.784,"end":32335.591,"text":"所以我們希望趕快去把請示我會請市政府趕快把計畫送到我們交通部來然後合併之後來併入我們陶地的這個工程才不會耽誤會如期的來完成好不好無縫接軌吧是不是我們在等啦委員也是跟市長講一下委員跟市長拜託然後請市政府加緊啦有有都在做計畫了我們都在營運了很好啊很好好那鐵路講完我們講公路了這個"},{"start":32338.14,"end":32357.87,"text":"我們在地方的這個公路建設因為桃園也身處於國門有桃機有國一跟我們的國三還有一些橫向的尤其桃園市政府特別完成了這個五縱五橫的高快速道路的這個路網希望能夠打通我們整個桃園的路廊"},{"start":32358.45,"end":32383.59,"text":"那這個五條高速公路裡面快速道路裡面有兩條板龍快速道路跟新梅龍快速道路我們行政院已經同意做可行性的評估了那這個是這兩條剛好都屬於我們南桃園的那我們北桃園部分有三條是城中快速道路跟我們環城西路跟國一甲東沿道我們桃北這個地方那這個三條的部分我們"},{"start":32384.471,"end":32397.352,"text":"行政院這邊並沒有來協助,那我想跟地方請願,這三條因為是北桃跟南桃是連結整個路網路廊,所以可不可以一起來做評估呢?"},{"start":32399.075,"end":32418.003,"text":"因為現在的新屋、陽美跟龍潭還有包括板橋道龍潭這個是因為我們現在有一個計畫是投豬苗產業延期的這個規劃所以優先把它放進去那這個部分在應該在四頁兩個都可行性都會發報出去"},{"start":32421.043,"end":32424.967,"text":"可行性的一年就可以完成了那另外三條可以並做嗎因為他這整個路網路廊是連貫的嘛在整個桃園地方"},{"start":32437.023,"end":32450.782,"text":"對其他三條事實上我個人沒有看到臺灣市政府曾經提到這樣的計畫是那如果計畫送進去的話可以幫我們一起做評估嗎我先看那個計畫的內容一下好那就是我們部長在這邊待如果送進去的話一起來做評估了"},{"start":32454.766,"end":32474.191,"text":"謝謝王部長那本席為什麼特別要提到這個路網的非常的重要性因為這個板龍快速道路從土城一直到龍潭連接新北那尤其新梅龍的話更從龍潭到陽梅到新屋這個就在我們龍科三期的這個範圍內"},{"start":32475.791,"end":32504.16,"text":"那如果說未來這個人流跟我們的產業到我們的航空城這個物流的方面的話會更加的需要讓我們地方的不會有塞車的問題要讓我們地方產業地方發展不管是產業跟觀光最重要的就是交通所以整個連貫是非常重要的所以請部長在這邊一定幫我們這整個這個五條快速道路五縱五橫裡面這五橫裡面非常重要幫我們一併的來解決這個問題"},{"start":32506.641,"end":32522.82,"text":"我講現在比較有計畫就是板農跟新梅農這兩個現在就是在進行其他三個我們再看一下你已經同意了我說這三條剛好都是在北桃的這個部分我們先看他初步的方案好不好是因為過去"},{"start":32523.4,"end":32551.879,"text":"像這些道路是在政府院長當市長的時候也提過所以很明確其他我是三條我再看一下他們提出來的還是需要市政府的提出來他們的這個初步的方案出來我們討論一下因為都有提出來了因為市府特別在講說說因為因為有五橫的這個兩條我們行政院已經同意嘛所以另外北桃市三條的話也整個整個路網路廊來講的話是有必要性的喔那尤其是新聞龍"},{"start":32553.18,"end":32553.84,"text":"謝謝李委員、玉琳的質詢。謝謝陳院長。"},{"start":32582.503,"end":32599.946,"text":"報告委員會本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢。謝謝陳院長、政府院長以及各位部會所長的列席答詢。現在做以下的決定。下次會議繼續進行施政方針及施政報告之質詢。現在散會。謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"149155","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149155","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e9681067b3fe1c4ea9cd274c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a6a4760fc26950f44b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"17:02:36 - 17:33:07","影片長度":"00:30:31","會議時間":"2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-27","duration":1831,"end_time":"2024-02-27T17:33:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-27T17:02:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":678,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（17時2分）謝謝院長，請陳院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：呂委員午安，恭喜你！"],["呂委員玉玲：院長，辛苦了，今天站了一天，我是最後一個，所以我們可以慢慢來回答喔！"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["呂委員玉玲：首先，請問院長，因為我們兩岸的局勢一直在升溫，雙方的互信基礎非常的薄弱，尤其這一次大陸快艇翻覆的事件，在2月14號發生，當時它進入我們金門海域的時候，海巡署第一時間它是需要上船來做檢查，但是大陸的漁船拒檢，而且它在逃逸的時候蛇行去碰撞到；在2月20號的時候，我們海巡署特別的表示，因為大陸漁船拒檢而發生碰撞，所以現在確定，想請問院長的是，是因為碰撞而發生翻覆的情形嗎？這有沒有相關聯？"],["陳院長建仁：這個已經請相關的專家小組在做鑑定，現在鑑定結果還沒有出來。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在確定是船隻有凹痕，就是碰撞，碰撞是跟這個翻覆有關係囉？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，謝謝您的關心，有關案情的部分，目前都在檢察官的偵辦過程之中，由檢察官全盤在掌握。有關案情的說明，我們認為任何一方的說明都是片面之詞，所以我們都不會……"],["呂委員玉玲：那就是要真相。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，沒有錯。"],["呂委員玉玲：真相才可以解決問題。"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是請大家放心，所有的事證……"],["呂委員玉玲：因為現在沒有影像、各說各話、沒辦法還原，所以才會沒有真相……"],["陳院長建仁：不，沒有影像也可以……"],["呂委員玉玲：至今一直在溝通，還沒有達到共識……"],["陳院長建仁：有影像當然最好，但是沒有影像也不是說不能鑑定，本來就是這樣，在沒有影像的情況下……"],["呂委員玉玲：院長，因為現在就是沒有影像、無法還原，所以我們真相還是要釐清……"],["管主任委員碧玲：真相還是可以還原……"],["呂委員玉玲：在這個當下，我們就是希望可以溝通協調，把各方的問題找出來，解決這個歧見。"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員……"],["呂委員玉玲：現在沒辦法達成共識，目前罹難者家屬是希望把罹難者遺體與船隻可以送回大陸，但海巡署無法接受。"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，兩個部分：一個部分是有關案情的偵查，這部分沒辦法透過溝通協調，這絕對是檢察官偵辦才能夠還原……"],["陳院長建仁：相信執法……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們尊重檢察官的偵辦，但我們希望能趕快溝通，這才是最好的方式……"],["管主任委員碧玲：至於談判、協商部分……協商部分跟委員報告，因為雙方有一個合意，就是在協商結論沒有出來之前，任何一方……"],["呂委員玉玲：可以談判一直破裂嘛？"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有破裂，還是繼續在……我們說是協商，基本上朝著人道……"],["呂委員玉玲：也因為破裂的關係，它現在已經宣布要進入金門限制海域巡弋，這會限縮到我們漁民的權益與臺灣的安全……"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告……"],["呂委員玉玲：不能讓它變成常態性，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，這件事情目前因為個案被做這樣的政治連結，我們非常的不樂見！但我們比較不宜在這時候說這是一個如何的常態、如何的長遠……兩岸關係……"],["呂委員玉玲：現在它已經進入我們金門海域了，海巡署應該有什麼應變措施？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們都有應處……"],["呂委員玉玲：什麼應處？什麼應處？"],["管主任委員碧玲：在臺灣海域，不管各國的船隻，不只是中國的船隻，越南的船隻，甚至於哪一國的船隻，我的舉例並不代表他們會進來。任何一個國家的船隻在我們所執法的海域，只要一接近，進來……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們還是要堅守我們整個海域的安全，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們都有應對……"],["呂委員玉玲：好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們都有應對，都會派船出去應對，我們會廣播，是。"],["呂委員玉玲：堅守海域的安全。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是一定要的！"],["呂委員玉玲：現在因為 M503航線衝擊了我們的飛安安全，在這種情形之下，我們對大陸提嚴正抗議是必要的，只是你禁止臺灣團客赴大陸，這個是在懲戒大陸以表示我們國家的尊嚴嗎？還是犧牲臺灣國民旅遊與旅遊業的權益？"],["陳院長建仁：我想任何國家、兩個國家在旅遊觀光上，應該是彼此互惠的，臺灣一向都准我們的同胞到大陸旅遊，但是到現在為止，沒有得到……"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道要抗議，但是不能犧牲國人旅遊的自由！"],["陳院長建仁：但是我們到現在沒有得到善意的回應，所以委員，你有機會的話也可以跟大陸做這樣的呼籲啦！"],["呂委員玉玲：你的善意是大陸的團客來，我們臺灣的團客才可以去，才可以解禁，是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：你可以呼籲大陸跟我們有善意的因應。"],["呂委員玉玲：是這樣才互相有善意嗎？王部長，我記得你說過，在總統當選人、賴清德總統當選時特別講到，要多多釋出善意，也會開放團客的來往，所以部長在去年11月宣布，3月1日開放陸客來臺。但現在不到幾個月時間，不到3個月時間，你又限制6月1日起禁止臺灣的團客過去，這個是朝令夕改啊！旅遊觀光業準備好了，好不容易三年疫情過去，旅遊業正準備要好好發展，卻又被你禁止！對所有觀光旅遊業者的犧牲與虧損，你要怎麼處理呢？"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，以觀光逆差800億來說，損傷的是，以桃園來講，是損失在旅宿業者、觀光餐飲業者身上，這先跟委員報告。第二個，對營業損失，以3月1日到5月底來說，我們知道組一個團要3個月，所以我們當時就這樣算，讓這個團都出去，所以這個都出去……"],["呂委員玉玲：你認為6月1日禁止就可以嗎？你要知道，7、8月是暑假，很早就把團客、團隊的旅遊單價賣出去了喔！"],["王部長國材：這個都算了，7、8月……"],["呂委員玉玲：這個也算嗎？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，7、8月的可以併團，請他併進來。另外，他們現在最大的……"],["呂委員玉玲：7、8月是暑假，要怎麼併進來呢？"],["王部長國材：第一個，如果能併團，不能併團的部分，現在最大的一筆……"],["呂委員玉玲：要補償嗎？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，現在最大的一筆就是航空公司的訂金，這個現在民航局也在幫忙他們……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，你答應要補償就對了？"],["王部長國材：這部分我們在處理中，這個在處理中。"],["呂委員玉玲：處理是補償嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：溝通協調。"],["王部長國材：當然就是溝通，看他最後大概有什麼損失……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以剛剛聽到部長特別講到的是，因為大陸陸客不來而我們一直去的話，這個是有逆差的，對不對？"],["王部長國材：800億，損傷的是我們自己。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們有逆差，但相對來講，如果這樣講，本席看了一下，我們2022年跟2023年美國進口的豬肉成長了1,283%，這也是貿易的逆差，我們是不是要終止、中斷這個美國的貿易逆差？"],["陳院長建仁：那是豬肉耶，不是貿易……"],["呂委員玉玲：豬肉也是貿易啊！也是逆差啊！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我覺得是這樣，我們所有……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們要整體性，我們要以觀光產業之間，不能因為是逆差……"],["陳院長建仁：我們所有，兩個國家之間要有彼此互信、對等的合作……"],["呂委員玉玲：……我們要去發展其他觀光產業，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對，任何不管……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們要從別的地方來補這個缺口嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：不管哪一個產業，兩個國家如果有互信、有對等，然後彼此有很好的交流，這就是善意的回應，所以觀光也好……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以善意是互相的啦！"],["王部長國材：互相的。"],["陳院長建仁：當然……"],["呂委員玉玲：互相才能夠……"],["陳院長建仁：他們如果能趕快開放，我們就開放啊！"],["呂委員玉玲：所以院長的意思是說，大陸陸客來的話，臺灣的團客才可以去了，這是你的最基本說法嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：所以我才請你好好地呼籲中國，讓他們的團客來……"],["呂委員玉玲：不是我要呼籲，院長，我們要共同的來解決、溝通、協調，才有共識解決這個問題。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊，我們大家都努力啊，我們政府這邊已經努力了啊！"],["呂委員玉玲：一齊努力，我們現在是討論觀光產業啦，所以請王部長，對於這個部分的話，我們要看觀光產業，我要讓你瞭解這個觀光產業，就是說……"],["陳院長建仁：他們不來是觀光產業受損耶，我們的觀光產業受損耶！"],["呂委員玉玲：2019年我們整個的國際觀光客有1,186萬，你特別在去年的時候也說有信心今年會達到1,200萬，對不對？"],["王部長國材：對，目標。"],["呂委員玉玲：你的信心，如果陸客不來的話，因為陸客占了271萬，占了將近四分之一，你們要怎麼補呢？"],["陳院長建仁：我舉個例子，去年我們本來說是600萬人次的觀光人數，我們沒有看到對岸的善意，可是我們從香港、港澳……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以他要釋出善意，我們現在來解決問題……"],["陳院長建仁：然後從日本、從南韓，都已經達到目標……"],["呂委員玉玲：院長，往前走，不要停在這問題上面……"],["陳院長建仁：我們已經達到600萬人的目標……"],["呂委員玉玲：現在部長要解決我們觀光人次的問題啊！"],["陳院長建仁：對啊……"],["呂委員玉玲：他已經誇下海口說要1,200萬嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：你相信他嘛，時間還沒有到……"],["呂委員玉玲：1,200萬，國際有這麼多國家嗎？你只有陸客而已嗎？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，去年……"],["呂委員玉玲：要怎麼樣去補陸客的這271萬人次呢？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告嘛，去年600萬有100萬是陸客，但是最終陸客沒來，我們有648萬……"],["陳院長建仁：我們還是達標喔。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以要補嘛！"],["王部長國材：對，補……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們看到喜歡來臺灣的觀光客裡面……"],["陳院長建仁：我們從其他國家來補。"],["呂委員玉玲：尤其港澳、日本、韓國是前三名。"],["王部長國材：對，這個是我們的重點目標。"],["呂委員玉玲：對、對、對！本席在這邊建議，除了鄰近我們的三個國家之外，我們是不是還可以開發歐美國家？歐美國家來臺的人次大概30萬人嘛……"],["陳院長建仁：好主意！"],["呂委員玉玲：港澳的話是120萬人次喔，所以我們是不是要開辦辦事處，然後用那邊的辦事處去多做點宣傳來補這個人次呢？"],["王部長國材：是，我們去年大概16個辦事處，今年包括印度，歐洲是本來就有啦，印度跟印尼……"],["呂委員玉玲：因為你只有在英國跟德國有據點嘛！"],["王部長國材：對，然後……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們應該要多辦幾個據點去做宣傳啊！"],["王部長國材：這個我們可以研議啦，我們可以研議，今年的重點是在印度跟印尼，這兩個是我們的重點。"],["陳院長建仁：因為我們……"],["呂委員玉玲：還是屬於東南亞國家，我們要往歐美，因為這個消費市場會比較大一點，比較高一點，不是嗎？"],["王部長國材：對，歐洲過去來臺灣的比較少，比起來，因為東南亞比較近啦。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為距離的關係，加上他們對臺灣的不瞭解，所以要去多宣傳嘛！"],["王部長國材：是，很少，歐洲比較少。對，這個是我們的重點之一。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，所以我們希望兩岸關係趕快在這個開春的時候能夠春暖花開，也能夠撥雲見日，好好的兩岸釋出善意，才能真的來解決這個問題啦。","接下來本席要談的就是我們桃園跟雙北（臺北、新北）都是一個共同的生活圈，尤其是我們在整個基礎建設以外的完善，還有產業，還有很多工作機會都會連結在一起，尤其是這次我們桃園也有來申請聯合醫學中心，很可惜沒有在評比裡面，前面有委員提到這個問題，本席想就教的是說，我們桃園部立醫院也有來申請……"],["陳院長建仁：對，但是因為……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們看到整個臺北地區申請合格的有10個醫院，整個北區有3個醫院來申請，只有2個，請問這2個在哪裡？"],["薛部長瑞元：一個在新竹，一個在桃園，就是長庚……"],["呂委員玉玲：一個是林口的長庚醫院嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：它是桃園啦！"],["呂委員玉玲：我要就教薛部長的是，請問我們醫學中心的門檻是要多少人才有一個醫學中心？多少人口？"],["薛部長瑞元：本來的規劃是200萬人。"],["呂委員玉玲：桃園有多少人口？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，那是要一個區……"],["呂委員玉玲：一個區？北區嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，北區，北區是桃竹苗。"],["呂委員玉玲：是的，那臺北、新北這雙北有10所醫院，為什麼我們桃園一所醫學中心都沒有？剛剛特別講的就是林口的長庚醫院，但它離新北最近，大概都服務新北的人，……"],["薛部長瑞元：也不一定啦！"],["呂委員玉玲：那你現在核准了一所在新竹，在這一、兩年的時間內桃園增加的人口數將近有12萬、13萬，新竹增加的人口只有5萬，為什麼桃園不能升格？不能有醫學中心？我們桃園有234萬人口耶！"],["陳院長建仁：這個……"],["呂委員玉玲：在我們整個醫療非常匱乏的情況之下，我們非常不了解為什麼我們沒有被審查通過啊？"],["陳院長建仁：審查通過是專家委員會去審查的啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：……審查的成績啦！"],["陳院長建仁：要看它的成績嘛！"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我請院長告訴我，我剛剛有提到一個重點，桃園有234萬人口，234萬人口卻沒有一個醫學中心，我們在醫療方面是非常匱乏，所以本席要為地方請命，請院長……"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["呂委員玉玲：本席有個建議啦……"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答一下嗎？剛才講的這一個桃園醫院，實際上它是準醫學中心啦！桃園醫院是準醫學中心……"],["呂委員玉玲：哪一個？哪一所？"],["陳院長建仁：部立桃園醫院是準醫學中心，因為它有數目的限制，你剛剛也提了嘛，所以它是準醫學中心，目前它的人力也好、技術也好、設備也好，其實都已經達到醫學中心的標準，但是因為限於數目嘛……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以它還是準醫學中心，不能升級，它的缺點在哪裡？它沒有審查通過的原因在哪裡？"],["薛部長瑞元：再努力就會有了。"],["陳院長建仁：對啦。"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是再努力就會有，因為今年是差一點點，某一個項目因為沒有達標，所以就沒有……"],["呂委員玉玲：哪個部分沒達標？"],["薛部長瑞元：在醫院評鑑的部分，有一個部分……"],["呂委員玉玲：病床數還是醫療項目？是什麼原因？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，就我所知道的是跟資訊系統有關啦！"],["呂委員玉玲：所以它現在是準醫學中心了？"],["薛部長瑞元：它再努力的話應該以後有機會。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以醫學中心的話表示衛福部以後會繼續輔導嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當然啊！"],["呂委員玉玲：會繼續輔導？"],["薛部長瑞元：那是我們的醫院啊！"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我請院長跟部長要重視桃園234萬人口，我講很多遍了，所以請重視我們的醫療。"],["薛部長瑞元：不過長庚還是算桃園啦！"],["呂委員玉玲：尤其是現在，我們桃園國軍總醫院現在要蓋新的醫療大樓，會增加病床數到876床，所以也請重視桃園國軍總醫院，它在南區，剛剛說的部立醫院在北區，讓我們南北醫療能夠均衡、平衡之下，我也請把這兩所列為準醫學中心，讓我們的醫療能夠獲得更完善……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有！那個不是我們列的……"],["陳院長建仁：不是我們列的啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：是評鑑，評鑑有評鑑的標準……"],["呂委員玉玲：我說他們現在都已經升格為醫療中心了，不只是醫療大樓病床的問題，還有很多項目，所以也是可以符合大家的規定、審核的標準嘛！我知道有審核標準，我現在是建議，好不好？我們市政府也會提出整個完善的輔導。"],["薛部長瑞元：努力啦！我們會請他們努力啦！"],["陳院長建仁：對。他們要努力達到標準，這是根據專家的醫院評鑑而來的，不是他列的。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，所以在準醫學中心之前，可不可以我們桃園市政府就先來找一些地方，我們也有提出好幾個地方要來做聯合診所。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，如果是醫院，小於100床以下的，那個市政府就可以核定了，超過100床以上的才需要送到衛福部……"],["呂委員玉玲：聯合診所耶？"],["薛部長瑞元：聯合診所基本上都是在市政府就處理了，診所啦，沒有住院的那一種診所。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以還是要送衛福部來輔導？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，市政府就可以核定了，要讓它……"],["呂委員玉玲：可是我們醫療的資源呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：剛剛委員講的是診所嘛，如果是醫院當然就有醫院的規定，醫院就是有收住院的病床。"],["呂委員玉玲：好。所以我們這兩所都可以了嘛？這兩所，部桃跟我們桃園國軍總醫院，他現在蓋新的醫療大樓，今年9月份就會蓋好了，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：是的，我們都……"],["呂委員玉玲：那我們這個空窗期還有一些聯合診所，我們請桃園市府這邊也趕快的來把完善的計畫做出來，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，那接下來醫療講完，我們想討論的就是龍科3期。謝謝薛部長。","我必須要講一下，院長，前行政院長蘇貞昌、行政院副院長鄭文燦，接連逕自宣布台積電1.4奈米先進製程會在龍潭，然而台積電「自始至終」都沒有明確表態要進駐龍潭，草率把科技產業當成選舉支票，讓台積電龍潭設廠產生變數！民眾直到2023年7月竹科管理局召開公聽會前才知道，自己的土地被劃設在龍科3期的預定範圍內，溝通協調慢半拍才導致民怨。"],["陳院長建仁：我想這一件事情不能夠成功自有公論，不是只有像你唸的這樣，但是我想國科會這一邊也可以跟你說明一下。"],["呂委員玉玲：國科會竹科管理局7月25號在開公聽會的時候，所有的民眾都已反映了，這個就是溝通不良、慢半拍，沒有溝通清楚提早宣布做選舉支票才會產生的情形。本席要跟我們主委所講的，跟院長所談的，就是現在龍科3期一定要繼續開發，因為龍科1、2期已經飽和了，現在龍科3期繼續開發的情形之下，雖然台積電我們還是會繼續來爭取，但是我們有其他的產業，像輝達。輝達他現在也宣布了，他的物流中心在我們大園的航空城，還有就是AI的研發中心，我們就可以爭取來到我們的龍科3期，所以我們在開發的時候，我們是不是要先找一些科技產業也來進駐我們的龍科3期呢？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我跟委員報告，事實上我們竹科管理局持續在跟龍科那邊的居民……"],["呂委員玉玲：你們有沒有去談，找其他的科技產業？"],["吳主任委員政忠：有，我們在溝通，我們持續會來跟居民溝通看看，有哪些地方我們可以來處理，事實上最近也會有一些溝通的公聽會。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們是希望在這部分要繼續開發，現在你講的你們也繼續都會再開發，而且又邀集其他的科技產業進來，但是更重要的是我剛剛講的溝通，所有我們鄉親的土地跟他們的居住權，我們要溝通清楚，不要溝通到一半而已，讓我們的產業、我們的民眾，跟我們整個的科技、政府都能夠三贏的局面，這才是最好的解決方式。"],["吳主任委員政忠：了解，事實上我們也會跟當地的政府一起來合作。"],["呂委員玉玲：就是要這樣子啊！好不好？"],["吳主任委員政忠：當地的政府應該是對當地的居民最瞭解，那部分持續在進行當中。"],["呂委員玉玲：而且特別還有講到的就是，在今年的上半年還要再開兩次公聽會嘛？現在已經快要3月了，你什麼時候再開兩次公聽會？你的期程在什麼時候？"],["吳主任委員政忠：應該3、4月會啟動。"],["呂委員玉玲：下個月？下個月就要開兩次公聽會了，開公聽會以前請把範圍定清楚，再跟所有土地跟居住的人溝通清楚，好不好？"],["吳主任委員政忠：那個一定會。"],["呂委員玉玲：一定要做到這一點，才會有善意，才不會有抗爭，好不好？"],["吳主任委員政忠：了解。"],["呂委員玉玲：好。那接下來本席要繼續討論的就是我們桃園的建設，剛剛也有提到我們桃園鐵路地下化，桃園鐵路地下化從鶯歌、鳳鳴一直到中壢，後來延伸到平鎮。這個過程中我們看到，整個現在開始在做的時候，已經這麼久的時間，都用分段、分區在施工，而且現在問題是工程有delay啦，所以我不曉得這個delay的原因是工程整個的整體計畫還是發包不順利，或者整體的預算的問題？"],["王部長國材：跟呂委員報告，現在它四個主體的標應該在1個月內全部都會發包完畢，所以主要的都會，在去年的確有1年非常不順利，都一直流標……"],["呂委員玉玲：為什麼？"],["王部長國材：我們局長有跟我說明，現在有兩標已經審查過了，審查過就馬上公布是誰，另外兩個標正在審查，就是有廠商投進來，所以主體標都沒問題，但是唯一的就是在桃園車站的標會碰到文資的課題，這個部分是他們現在最擔心的，所以如果……"],["呂委員玉玲：因為在我們平鎮段那個新光路的平交道要做臨時軌，去年大概要在10月份封路做臨時軌，結果一直都沒有，我不曉得這個工程是卡在哪裡。"],["王部長國材：也是一樣，就是發包不順利、經費有點不足，現在第一個我們在提修正計畫，但是最重要的工程也就是在主體的這四個標在1個月內應該都會發包完成，那我想說臨時軌的部分包括我們預算的調整也趕快來做，所以我想說會趕快來追上這個進度。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，應該要讓整個工程能夠如期如質，所以我剛剛特別提到的就是我們新光路這個平交道，因為我們南端出土的位置不適當，就在台66線前面，因為這個問題，我們附近十幾個里，包括我們張司長，我們也都在跟交通部這邊溝通、協調，現在已經拍板定案要南移1.2公里，就在陸橋南路，這個計畫也要由鐵道局來做計畫送交通部再到行政院，請問現在送出了沒有？"],["王部長國材：是，他們還沒有送到交通部。"],["呂委員玉玲：是卡在哪裡？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，因為前面都進行了一陣子，那這個平鎮的南移要重新做一點初步的可行性，所以還需要時間，我知道他們現在有加速在進行。"],["呂委員玉玲：這個是差不多在去年9月的時候，到現在這麼久了，因為它只是南移1.2公里，只要做環差而已，很快的啊！"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，雖然是一點多公里，可是你要估費用……"],["呂委員玉玲：請問部長，什麼時候送進交通部再送行政院？鐵道局……"],["王部長國材：他們現在還在進行中，還沒有給我時間點，還沒有送上來。"],["呂委員玉玲：大概要多久？"],["王部長國材：現在正在加速中。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們希望整個工程都能夠順利，尤其是我們剛才講的整個計畫你們發包的問題、預算的問題，預算穩定，發包才會順利，才會讓工程如期如質的完成，所以請部長你們要整體的盤整，要去精算一下，到時候不要跟我們講什麼缺工、缺料的問題，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好。"],["呂委員玉玲：尤其是我們整個桃園的鐵路地下化最重要的是要帶來地方的進步跟繁榮，也解決交通堵塞的問題，所以我們才會將這個南端的出土位置南移1.2公里。本席也要在這邊請王部長要重視一下我們平鎮車站必須要有一個大車站成為新都心，帶來地方的繁榮發展，才能讓我們建置鐵路如期的更加有加倍的效果，好不好？"],["王部長國材：是，這個部分我想說大車站計畫的重點在都市計畫，我知道桃園市政府原來……"],["呂委員玉玲：都已經在做了。"],["王部長國材：對，我想他提出來以後，有些都市計畫的程序，因為基本上車站旁邊跟這個土地開發也是我們期待的。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們希望趕快，我會請市政府趕快把計畫送到交通部，然後在核定之後來併入我們桃地的這個工程，才不會耽誤而會如期的來完成，好不好？無縫接軌嘛！是不是？"],["王部長國材：我們在等啊！委員也是跟市長講一下。"],["呂委員玉玲：OK。"],["陳院長建仁：委員跟市長拜託，然後請市政府加緊。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，都有在做計劃了，我們都在研議了。"],["陳院長建仁：很好。"],["呂委員玉玲：那鐵路講完，我要講公路了。我們在地方的公路建設，因為桃園也身處於國門，有桃機，有國一跟我們的國三，還有一些橫向的，尤其桃園市政府特別完成了五縱五橫的高快速道路的路網，希望能夠打通我們整個桃園的路廊，在這五條快速道路裡面，對板龍快速道路跟新梅龍快速道路這兩條，行政院已經同意做可行性的評估了，這兩條剛好都屬於我們南桃園，我們北桃園部分有三條，就是城中快速道路、環城西路跟國一甲東延到我們桃北這個地方，那對這三條的部分，行政院這邊並沒有來協助，那我想替地方來請願，這三條因為是連結北桃跟南桃整個路網、路廊，所以可不可以一起來做評估呢？"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，因為現在的新屋、楊梅跟龍潭，還有包括板龍，即板橋到龍潭，因為我們現在有一個計畫是桃竹苗產業園區的規劃。"],["呂委員玉玲：對、對、對。"],["王部長國材：所以優先把它放進去，這個部分應該在4月，兩個可行性都會發包出去，其他……"],["呂委員玉玲：今年就會完成了嘛！這兩條，即板龍跟新梅龍。"],["王部長國材：可行性在4月……"],["呂委員玉玲：今年就可以完成了？"],["王部長國材：發包出去開始執行，可行性……"],["呂委員玉玲：好，那另外三條可以一併做嗎？"],["王部長國材：其他的道路……"],["呂委員玉玲：因為這整個路網、路廊是連貫的，在整個桃園地方。"],["王部長國材：對，事實上，其他三條我個人沒有看到桃園市政府曾經提到這樣的計畫。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，如果計畫送進去的話，可以幫我們一起做評估嗎？"],["王部長國材：我們先看一下那個計畫的內容。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，那就是我們部長在這邊答應，如果送進去的話就一起來做評估了。"],["王部長國材：他們要先提出來。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，謝謝王部長。本席為什麼特別要提到這個路網的重要性？因為這個板龍快速道路是從土城一直到龍潭，連接新北，尤其新梅龍的話，更從龍潭到楊梅到新屋，這個就在我們龍科三期的範圍內，如果未來整個人流跟我們的產業到航空城物流方面會更加的需要，讓我們地方不會有塞車的問題，要讓我們地方產業、地方發展，不管是產業跟觀光，最重要的就是交通，整個連貫是非常重要的，所以請部長在這邊一定要幫我們這五條快速道路，就是五縱五橫裡面，這五橫非常重要，幫我們一併來解決這個問題，好不好？"],["王部長國材：我想現在比較有計畫的就是板龍跟新梅龍，這2個現在就是在進行。"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道，這個部分你已經同意。"],["王部長國材：其他三個我們再看一下，因為……"],["呂委員玉玲：這三條剛好都是在北桃的部分。"],["王部長國材：我們先看它初步的方案好不好？因為過去像這些道路是在鄭副院長當市長的時候有提過，所以很明確，其他三條我再看一下他們提出來的內容。"],["陳院長建仁：還是需要市政府的努力。"],["王部長國材：提出他們的初步方案，我們討論一下。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，都有提出來了，因為市府特別在講說，因為五橫的這兩條，我們行政院已經同意了，所以另外北桃這三條，因為整個路網、路廊來講，是有必要性的，尤其是……"],["陳院長建仁：這整個構想看起來是很好，但是沒有提到中央這邊來，我們怎麼曉得它要做什麼、要討論什麼？所以重要的還是請委員回去敦促我們市政府儘快地提出構想，我們才有辦法、才能討論，不然就不知道要討論什麼。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，謝謝，那我們會趕快送進去，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂委員玉玲的質詢，謝謝陳院長。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢。謝謝陳院長、鄭副院長以及各位部會首長的列席答詢。現在作以下的決定：下次會議繼續進行施政方針及施政報告之質詢。現在散會，謝謝大家。","散會（17時33分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳秉叡","丁學忠","黃珊珊","林岱樺","陳雪生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2年跟2023年進口"},{"start":467.349,"end":484.4,"text":"美國進口的這個豬肉啊,它就成長了百分之一千兩百八十三了,那這也是貿易的逆差,那我們是不是要中止這個,中斷這個美國的這個貿易逆差?那是豬肉欸,不是貿易。豬肉也是貿易啊,也是逆差啊。"},{"start":485.66,"end":492.224,"text":"我覺得委員是這樣,我們所有兩個國家之間要有彼此互信之間的合作。不管哪一個產業,兩個國家如果有互信、有對等,然後彼此很好的交流,"},{"start":506.971,"end":516.936,"text":"所以觀光也好,所以善意是互相的啦,互相才能夠,所以院長你的意思說,他大陸客來的話,我們的臺灣的團客才可以去了,就基本的這樣子的說法嗎?"},{"start":525.741,"end":531.708,"text":"不是我要呼籲院長我們要共同的來解決溝通協調才有共識解決這問題一起努力我們現在是討論觀光產業啦所以請黃部長這個部分的話我們要看看觀光產業因為我怎麼"},{"start":546.403,"end":563.528,"text":"他們不來是觀光產業受損我們的觀光產業受損2019年我們的所有的這整個觀光這個國際觀光客有1186萬嘛你特別在去年的時候你也說你有信心今年會達到1200萬對不對那你的信心那陸客不來的話陸客佔了271萬"},{"start":570.47,"end":584.538,"text":"但將近四分之一,你們要怎麼補呢?我舉個例子嘛,去年我們本來說是六百萬人次的觀光人數,我們沒有看到對岸的善意,可是我們從"},{"start":586.998,"end":594.441,"text":"所以臺灣是四處善意,我們現在來解決問題,院長廣協總要提出到這個問題上面,現在部長要解決我們觀光人士的問題啊,他已經誇下海口說要1200萬嘛,1200萬,國際有這麼多國家嗎?你只有陸克而已嗎?"},{"start":606.664,"end":608.146,"text":"所以我們看到喜歡來台灣的觀光客裡面尤其是"},{"start":623.53,"end":644.006,"text":"港澳、日本、韓國是前三名的這個是我們的重點目標對對對那我本席在這邊建議就是說除了這個鄰近我們這個三個國家之外我們是不是還可以開發到像歐美國家歐美國家我們看到他的人次大概30萬人嘛那港澳的話是120萬人次喔"},{"start":646.067,"end":661.64,"text":"所以我們是不是要用那邊開辦他那邊有個辦事處多的宣傳來補助這個人事呢?是我們現在去年大概16個辦事處最近今年包括印度跟歐洲本來就有了"},{"start":661.8,"end":663.3,"text":"因為消費這個市場會比較大一點,比較高一點,是嗎?"},{"start":681.365,"end":708.621,"text":"對,歐洲過去來台灣比較少,比起來因為比較近啦,東岸比較近。因為距離的關係啦,跟對台灣人的不了解,所以要去多宣傳嘛。對,這個是我們重點之一。是,好,所以我們希望我們兩岸的關係趕快都能夠在這個開春的時候能夠春暖花開,也能夠撥雲見日,好好的兩岸釋出善意,才能真的來解決這個問題啦齁。那接下來本席要談的就是我們"},{"start":709.682,"end":709.702,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":728.942,"end":756.787,"text":"申請聯合醫學中心很可惜沒有在評比裡面前面有委員提到這個問題本身想救教的就是說我們桃園部立醫院也有來申請我們看到整個臺北地區申請合格有10個醫院那整個北區的話有3個醫院來申請只有2個"},{"start":760.082,"end":782.809,"text":"請問這兩個在哪裡?一個在新竹一個在桃園一個在林口的長庚醫院所以這個我要救教的就是我們薛副長我們醫學中心的門檻是要多少人才有一個醫學中心?本來的規劃是200萬人桃園有多少人口?"},{"start":783.98,"end":787.726,"text":"那是要一個區北區嘛那台北新北這個雙北有10所醫院為什麼"},{"start":794.312,"end":813.346,"text":"我們桃園一所醫學中心都沒有剛剛特別講的就是林口的長庚醫院他離新北最近大概都服務於新北的人那你現在何止你一所在新竹新竹在這個一兩年的時候我們桃園增加的人口數將近有12萬13萬"},{"start":815.847,"end":823.814,"text":"新竹增加的人口只有5萬,我們為什麼桃園不能夠升格,不能有醫學中心,我們桃園有234萬人口欸。"},{"start":826.558,"end":840.663,"text":"所以我們整個醫療非常匱乏的情況之下所以我們非常不了解為什麼我們沒有被審查通過啊?所以我請院長做事我剛剛提到了一個重點桃園234萬人口234萬人口沒有一個醫學中心在我們的醫療上面非常的匱乏所以本席要為地方請命請院長"},{"start":856.971,"end":860.856,"text":"我可以回答一下嗎?剛才講的這個桃園實際上它是準醫學中心哪一個?哪一所?"},{"start":869.062,"end":871.023,"text":"對啦應該是再努力就會有因為今年是差一點點"},{"start":899.093,"end":919.586,"text":"某一個項目的話因為沒有達標所以就就沒有哪個部分沒達標在醫院評鑑的部分有一個有一個部分病床數還是醫療是什麼原因還是醫療項目就是我所知道的是跟資訊系統所以他現在是準醫學中心了"},{"start":921.12,"end":927.604,"text":"所以醫學中心的話表示我們衛福部會繼續輔導嗎?當然啦那是我們的意願我請院長跟部長要重視桃園234萬我講很多遍了"},{"start":936.155,"end":958.292,"text":"所以請重視我們的醫療那尤其是現在我們桃園國軍總醫院現在要蓋新的醫療大樓會增加到病床數有876床所以我也請重視我們桃園國軍總醫院它在南區剛剛講的部立院是在北區讓我們南北醫療能夠均衡"},{"start":959.013,"end":977.729,"text":"平衡之下,我也請把這兩所列為準醫學中心,讓我們的醫療能夠獲得更完善好不好。我說他們現在都已經升個醫療中心了,不只是醫療大樓病床的問題,還有很多項目,所以也是可以符合大家的規定嘛。"},{"start":978.49,"end":986.276,"text":"對,他們要努力達到標準這是根據專家的醫院評鑑而來的所以在這個準醫學中心之前可不可以我們桃園市政府就先來找一些地方我們也評鑑好幾個地方提出了幾個地方來做聯合診所"},{"start":1006.811,"end":1034.153,"text":"跟委員報告齁,如果是醫院是小於100床以下的,那市政府就可以核定了。超過100床以上才需要送到...聯合診所欸聯合診所基本上都是在市政府就處理了。診所啦,沒有住院的那一種...還是要送衛福部來輔導?沒有,就是市政府就可以核定了。可是我們醫療的資源啊?"},{"start":1038.946,"end":1065.964,"text":"沒有,剛剛委員講的是診所嘛,如果是醫院當然就有醫院的規定,醫院就是有收住院的病床。所以我們這兩所都可以了吧,兩所這個部桃跟我們桃園國軍總醫院,它現在新的醫療大樓9月份就蓋好了,今年9月份就會蓋好了。是啦,我們都...照空窗期還有一些聯合診所,我們請桃園市府這邊也趕快的來把這個完善的計畫做出來,好不好?"},{"start":1067.398,"end":1082.755,"text":"好那接下來這一聊講完我們想跟我們部長討論的就是龍科三期龍科三期謝謝薛部長我必須要講一下"},{"start":1084.892,"end":1107.896,"text":"院長在前行政院長蘇貞昌跟行政院的副院長鄭文燦接連的禁制宣布台積電的1.4奈米先進的這個製程會在論壇然而台積電自始至終都沒有明確的表態要進駐論壇草率的把科技產業當成選舉的支票讓台積電論壇設廠產生變數"},{"start":1114.295,"end":1130.398,"text":"民眾直到2023年的7月份竹科管理局召開了公聽會前才知道自己的土地被劃設在農科三期的預定範圍內。所以溝通協調慢半拍才導致民怨。"},{"start":1131.513,"end":1155.723,"text":"我想這一件事情能夠成功是有公論不是只有像你念的這樣但是我想國科會這一邊也可以國科會、竹科、管理局那時候7月25號的時候在開公聽會的時候所有的民眾都已經反映了這個就是溝通不了慢半拍沒有溝通清楚提早宣布做選舉支票"},{"start":1157.827,"end":1180.946,"text":"才會產生的情形那本席要跟我們主委所講的跟院長所談的就是現在農科三級一定要繼續開發因為農科一、二期已經飽和了現在農科三級繼續開發的情形之下我們雖然是台積電我們還是會繼續來爭取但是我們有其他的產業像輝達輝達現在也宣布了"},{"start":1185.555,"end":1186.575,"text":"﹚三、2月27日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。﹚"},{"start":1205.143,"end":1226.782,"text":"那個我跟這個委員報告事實上我們這個竹科管理局持續在跟農科那邊的居民有沒有去談找其他的科技產業我們持續會來跟居民溝通看看有哪些地方我們可以來處理事實上最近也會有一些溝通的這個公聽會"},{"start":1228.482,"end":1254.871,"text":"我們是希望在這個繼續開發我們現在直接講的你們也繼續都會再開發而且要邀集其他的科技產業進來但是要重要我剛剛講的溝通所有我們的鄉親的土地跟他們的這個居住權我們要溝通清楚不要溝通到一半而已讓我們的產業跟我們的民眾跟我們的這個整個科技"},{"start":1256.772,"end":1284.225,"text":"政府都能夠三贏的局面這才是最好的解決方式事實上我們也會跟當地的政府一起來合作事實上當地的那個政府應該對當地的居民應該是最了解那那個持續在進行當中而且現在特別有講到就是說在這個上半年今年的上半年還要再開兩次的公聽會嘛現在已經快要三月了你什麼時候再開兩次公聽會你的期程在什麼時候三、四月應該會啟動"},{"start":1285.626,"end":1288.067,"text":"接下來本席要繼續討論的就是我們桃園的建設"},{"start":1312.042,"end":1314.824,"text":"桃園鐵路地下化,從英哥鳳鳴一直到中壢,後來延伸到平鎮。"},{"start":1327.532,"end":1327.972,"text":"關於委員報告,現在他四個組體的標"},{"start":1350.22,"end":1374.612,"text":"在應該一個月內全部都會發報完畢所以主要的都會在去年的確有一年非常不順利都一直流標現在我們居然跟我說明說現在有兩標已經審查過了審查過就馬上公佈誰了另外兩標正在審查就是有廠商投進來所以主體標都沒問題但是唯一的這個在桃園車站的標會碰到這個文資的課題"},{"start":1375.752,"end":1403.2,"text":"這個部分是他們現在最擔心的。因為在我們憑證段的時候那個新光爐那個評交到要做臨時軌嘛。去年大概10月要封路做臨時軌,結果一直都沒有。我不曉得這工程卡到哪裡。一樣,就是花包不順利,經費有點不足。那現在第一個我們在提這個修正計畫。但最重要的工程在這個主體啦,主體的這個四個標在一個月內應該都會花包完成。"},{"start":1403.881,"end":1409.133,"text":"我想說臨時軌部分因為包括我們預算的調整也趕快來做所以我想說會趕快來追上這個進度"},{"start":1413.056,"end":1440.376,"text":"應該要讓整個工程能夠如期如質所以我剛剛特別提到的就是我們新光路這個品交道那因為我們南端的出土的位置不適當在66前面那因為這個問題我們附近十幾個里根包括我們張市長我們也都溝通在跟交通部這邊溝通協調現在已經拍板定了要南移1.2公里在鹿橋南路那這個計畫也要鐵道局來做計畫送交通部再到行政院請問"},{"start":1442.057,"end":1456.164,"text":"現在送出了沒有?是,他還沒送到交通部因為我跟委包因為全面都進行一陣子那你這個憑證的難以他重新要做一點初步的可行性所以他還需要時間我知道他們現在加速在進行"},{"start":1458.296,"end":1481.096,"text":"這個是去年差不多9月的時間,現在到這麼久了。現在因為他只是難以1.2公里,只要做環差而已。很快的啊。那請問部長,什麼時候送進交通部在行政院?什麼時候?鐵道局?他還在進行中,還沒有給我時間點,還沒有送上來。大概多久?現在在加速中。"},{"start":1484.332,"end":1505.065,"text":"我們希望整個工程都能夠順利那尤其是我們剛才講的整個計畫你們的發包的問題預算的問題預算穩定發包才會順利才讓工期如期如質的完成所以請部長你們整體的要盤整要去精算一下那到時候不要跟我們講什麼缺工缺料的問題"},{"start":1506.345,"end":1506.465,"text":"﹚主席"},{"start":1522.342,"end":1537.018,"text":"我們王副長要重視一下我們平鎮車站必須要有大車站所謂新都心帶來地方的繁榮發展才有讓我們建制這鐵路過去的這個如期的更加的加倍的效果好不好是"},{"start":1538.079,"end":1554.609,"text":"這一個部分我想說大車站計畫他重點在都市計畫我知道臺灣市政府在延耐都已經在做了我想他提出來以後有些都市化程序或是因為基本上車站旁邊跟這個土地開發這也是我們是期待的"},{"start":1555.109,"end":1580.924,"text":"所以我們希望趕快去把請示我會請市政府趕快把計畫送到我們交通部來然後合併之後來併入我們陶地的這個工程才不會耽誤會如期的來完成好不好無縫接軌吧是不是我們在等啦委員也是跟市長講一下委員跟市長拜託然後請市政府加緊啦有有都在做計畫了我們都在努力了很好啊很好好那鐵路講完我們講公路了這個"},{"start":1583.465,"end":1603.195,"text":"我們在地方的這個公路建設因為桃園也身處於國門有桃機有國一跟我們的國三還有一些橫向的尤其桃園市政府特別完成了這個五縱五橫的高快速道路的這個路網希望能夠打通我們整個桃園的路廊"},{"start":1603.775,"end":1628.897,"text":"那這個五條高速公路裡面快速道路裡面有兩條板龍快速道路跟新梅龍快速道路我們行政院已經同意做可行性的評估了那這個是這兩條剛好都屬於我們南桃園的那我們北桃園部分有三條是城中快速道路跟我們環城西路跟國一甲東沿道我們桃北這個地方那這個三條的部分我們"},{"start":1629.798,"end":1642.679,"text":"呃,行政院這邊並沒有來協助,那我想跟地方請願喔,替地方來請願,這三條因為是北桃跟南桃是連結整個路網路廊喔,所以可不可以一起來做評估呢?"},{"start":1643.679,"end":1665.134,"text":"關尾報告,因為現在的新屋、陽美跟龍潭,還有包括板橋道龍潭,這個是因為我們現在有一個計畫是投豬苗產業延期的規劃,所以優先把它放進去,那這個部分應該在4月兩個都可行性都會發報出去。今年就會完成了吧?"},{"start":1667.508,"end":1681.117,"text":"可行性可行性的一年就可以完成了對花包出去開始執行了可行性好那另外三條可以並做嗎因為他這整個路網路廊是連貫的嘛在整個桃園地方"},{"start":1682.35,"end":1696.101,"text":"對,其他三條事實上我個人沒有看到臺灣市政府曾經提到這樣的計畫。是,那如果計畫送進去的話可以幫我們一起做評估嗎?我先看那個計畫的內容一下。好,那就是我們部長在這邊待,如果送進去的話一起來做評估了。"},{"start":1700.095,"end":1719.534,"text":"謝謝王副長。本席為什麼特別要提到這個路網的非常重要性呢?因為這個板樓快速道路從土城一直到龍潭連接新北。那尤其新梅龍的話更從龍潭到陽梅到新屋。這個就在我們龍科三期的這個範圍內。"},{"start":1721.095,"end":1749.504,"text":"那如果說未來這個人流跟我們的產業到我們的航空城這個物流的方面的話會更加的需要讓我們地方的不會有塞車的問題要讓我們地方產業地方發展不管是產業跟觀光最重要的就是交通所以整個連貫是非常重要的所以請部長在這邊一定幫我們這整個這個五條快速道路五縱五橫裡面這五橫裡面非常重要幫我們一併的來解決這個問題"},{"start":1751.945,"end":1768.127,"text":"我講現在比較有計畫就是板農跟新梅農這兩個現在就是在進行其他三個我們再看一下已經同意了那我說這三條剛好都是在北桃的這個部分我們先看他初步的方案好不好是因為過去"},{"start":1768.707,"end":1797.406,"text":"像這些道路是在政府院長當市長的時候也提過所以很明確其他我是三條我再看一下他們提出來的還是需要市政府的提出來他們的這個初步的方案出來我們討論一下因為都有提出來了因為市府特別在講說說因為因為有五橫的這個兩條我們行政院已經同意嘛所以另外北桃市三條的話也整個整個路網路廊來講的話是有必要性的那尤其是西門隆"},{"start":1798.687,"end":1799.147,"text":"謝謝呂委員玉玲的質詢。謝謝陳院長。"},{"start":1827.83,"end":1830.999,"text":"報告委員會本日排定質詢的委員"}]}},{"id":"149154","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149154","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e96810de16e473e88da6f34c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a6f2c2abc92875f3cc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"16:46:36 - 17:02:27","影片長度":"00:15:51","會議時間":"2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-27","duration":951,"end_time":"2024-02-27T17:02:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-27T16:46:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":591,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（16時46分）謝謝院長，請陳院長跟交通部長。"],["主席：請陳院長備詢。交通部王部長請。"],["陳院長建仁：黃委員午安，恭喜你當選連任。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝院長。我記得我在2016年剛就職上任立法委員的時候，我在第一個會期同樣質詢林全院長有關彰化的鐵路高架，時間也經過了8年，那我還是在第1會期、第11屆的第1個會期同樣在質詢我們的陳院長，彰化的鐵路高架真的講的非常的久，在差不多接近2年的時候行政院已經核定，那現在是進入到綜合規劃。"],["陳院長建仁：綜合規劃。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，那我看到綜合規劃將近2年的時間，這個綜合規劃還是停在到底是要三軌或四軌、還沒有確定，那我是不是可以請院長或者是部長跟我回答一下，因為我覺得總是要有一個時間啦，要不然時間再過了4年可能還在討論，所以我覺得地方都等不及了，是不是可以請院長來回答？"],["王部長國材：我們目前如果以整個臺鐵的營運來講要四軌啦，因為山、海線的匯集就是在彰化這個地方，我們是朝這方面來進行。那目前綜合規劃已經到結束，現在剩下最後一個課題就是現在的彰化檢修廠要移到哪裡，過去它是放在花壇，花壇是因為它往北嘛，往北它可以經過彰化、臺中；後來縣政府是希望說能夠移到大肚去，那大肚的話它往北就是臺中了，所以彰化服務不到啦。兩個各有它的……比如說在花壇有徵收的課題。目前這個部分我們是希望在3月跟地方政府做一個討論，我們初步還是希望在花壇，以臺鐵的營運來講，現在的這個檢修廠就在彰化站的南端嘛，它的重點就是要往北，因為它很多是從花壇到南港或花壇到花蓮的這個車子，如果在大肚的話它就要迴車，修理完要迴車到這個……"],["黃委員秀芳：這個可能是技術性的吧？"],["王部長國材：對，現在……"],["黃委員秀芳：那是不是有可能去克服？如果說按照目前的這個計畫可能要徵收35公頃，那徵收民地或者是民房可能是好幾百戶，這個對地方的影響真的非常的大。那我是不是可以請中央跟地方針對這一部分，無論是現在好像三軌還四軌，就剛剛部長講的……"],["王部長國材：四軌。"],["黃委員秀芳：是朝向四軌，那地方是同意嗎？那如果不同意的話，你們怎麼去克服？另外就是我們這個檢修廠站，如果說你們是想要在彰化的花壇或者是二水，對於整個彰化的衝擊，尤其是花壇這邊可能衝擊蠻大的，因為徵收的土地面積很大。這樣子如何來克服，就是減少對民眾的一個影響？我希望中央尤其是我們交通部相關的單位，真的要跟地方好好的溝通，因為這個時間真的拖太久了，從我第一屆當立委到現在8年都還在討論這個，我都覺得到底有沒有在動啊？我是不是可以要求，未來2個月至3個月，也要跟我們辦公室報告你們目前的進度是怎樣？"],["王部長國材：目前是在於檢修廠的位置，我想最後大概是這個問題，綜合規劃已經做得差不多了，最後這一個在3月會跟地方政府做最後的確定。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以3月份會做最後的確定？"],["陳院長建仁：我想中央跟地方一定要坐下來好好談，然後要互相瞭解怎麼樣才是最好的方案。我也希望委員有機會的話，請縣政府也跟我們這邊能夠坐下來好好談，然後彼此瞭解需要，如果真的是需要在花壇的時候，要怎麼來解決。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得溝通是很重要。"],["黃委員秀芳：當然啊，我是希望……"],["陳院長建仁：你來促進一下彼此的溝通。"],["黃委員秀芳：可是就是要減少對當地居民的一個衝擊啦！"],["陳院長建仁：那當然！當然！"],["黃委員秀芳：因為35公頃真的是非常的大，那個面積真的是非常的大。"],["王部長國材：事實上我跟委員報告，現在檢修廠，很多都是可以聯合做一些其他的建設，比如說檢修廠跟一些大樓，是可以做的，所以這個也牽涉到一些都市計畫的變更跟……我們是不是從土地使用，不要讓它好像純粹是個檢修廠……"],["陳院長建仁：對，聯合開發。"],["王部長國材：現在幾乎都是往這方向來走。我想這方面，我們也有跟彰化縣政府做過討論，當然它最大的壓力來自於拆遷啦……"],["黃委員秀芳：當然啦！"],["王部長國材：拆遷是它最大的壓力，但是我覺得要不要一起克服，然後讓民眾也不要太吃虧，我想這部分我們可以再跟它討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：是全部都會在花壇？還是有一部分會在大肚？或者有一部分會在二水？"],["王部長國材：目前我們是在花壇啦，因為您瞭解嘛！彰化鐵路高架以後它爬不上去，要往南跑，所以有一塊基地作為往北車輛的檢修廠，目前我們是希望在花壇。大肚已經要往南，因為它主要發車都往北了，這樣服務不到彰化。"],["陳院長建仁：最主要還是跟高架化連結。"],["王部長國材：對，對。高架化……"],["陳院長建仁：一起連動的工程啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我這邊要再次拜託行政院，還有我們的交通部，針對這個議題、重大的建設，真的要費心一點，而且要定期跟地方政府去溝通。要不然地方政府如果說是中央卡它一直都不動的話，其實我相信院長在這次的選舉，你應該也聽到很多，就是地方政府一些重大建設都說中央卡地方政府的建設嘛！我是認為這個重大建設，不論是中央或地方是一起的啦！"],["陳院長建仁：對，同意。"],["黃委員秀芳：所有的民眾看到的就是這個到底有沒有進度，他不會去分這個是中央的權責或是地方的權責，不會！所以拜託行政院這邊，針對彰化的鐵路高架，真的要費心啦，讓它有進度。我相信院長在去年11月的時候，你有自己親自到彰化的扇行車庫去體驗百年扇庫，這個百年扇庫未來鐵路高架之後，它還是可以活化，它還是可以一起來帶動整個地方的觀光發展。大家感覺影響整個彰化最大的就是鐵路高架……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：彰化目前沒有比較重大的一個建設，它就是鐵路高架……"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分其實我們……"],["黃委員秀芳：還有捷運綠線，所以我拜託院長還有部長，針對這一部分真的要用心，是不是可以給我們一個期程？"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分其實我們也很急，就是希望……"],["黃委員秀芳：剛剛部長講3月份，你們會針對這個檢修廠的部分……"],["王部長國材：確定位址啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：可能會做一個確定嘛！會確定？"],["王部長國材：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：那未來是不是每3個月，也跟我們辦公室報告一下，你們目前的進度怎樣，要不然真的我們也是要追著問，而每次問都好像是停在那邊，都完全沒有動，地方也會很急。是不是可以請部長這樣做，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好，是。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。另外一個我要問的是捷運啦！關於捷運，院長你知道……"],["陳院長建仁：我知道，就是綠線延伸嘛！"],["黃委員秀芳：對。"],["陳院長建仁：綠線延伸彰化。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，院長，在去年選舉時，台中捷運綠線延伸到彰化，北延到大坑、南延到彰化，這也是可以帶動地方發展的重要軌道建設。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我們也是這樣想。"],["黃委員秀芳：剛剛我講了鐵路高架的建設，還有一個就是臺中捷運綠線延伸到彰化，很高興也很感謝行政院通過可行性評估，是有條件的通過，未來在綜合規劃之前，東彰的擴大都市計畫要一起連動，我希望、也拜託，因為捷運綠線未來影響到整個彰化的發展，我們期待臺中捷運綠線延伸到彰化，如果未來到彰化之後，未來再規劃到彰化的鹿港，可以帶動整個彰化的都市發展，我拜託院長針對這部分，要請中央跟地方一起配合。"],["陳院長建仁：對，委員你講到很大的重點，在延伸到彰化的都市計畫，縣政府扮演一個很關鍵的角色，當時我們也一直盼望能夠在可行性評估核定前，彰化縣政府能夠做出來，可是實際上他有困難，所以我們才有條件的讓它通過，我們也真的希望彰化縣政府要趕快加緊做這方面，因為我們沒有辦法代勞啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["陳院長建仁：因為這是縣政府的事情。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，所以我才希望未來不論是鐵路高架，或者是臺中捷運綠線，因為一般民眾不會分這是中央權責或地方權責……"],["陳院長建仁：對，我知道，沒有錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：只要地方政府說這是中央卡他，院長你不覺得這次一直聽到中央在卡地方這樣的聲音嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們也要拜託委員，我本身也要跟民眾解釋清楚，一個建設是否成功，其實中央和地方兩方面都很重要，如果是地方無法配合、沒辦法做，這我們就要講清楚。像是綠線延伸彰化，我們真的很擔心彰化自己的都市計畫是不是有做好，說實話，這一點我們到現在還沒有信心。但縣長也覺得這很重要，若縣長覺得很重要，縣政府也覺得很重要，那就要趕快認真把事情做好嘛！"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我在這裡說，我當一個民意代表，我希望中央跟地方一起合作。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：地方可能碰到一些問題，是不是也拜託中央這邊協助……"],["陳院長建仁：是，我們可以幫忙、協助。"],["黃委員秀芳：讓鐵路高架還有臺中捷運綠線能夠儘速，在綜合規劃之前，彰化的東彰都市計畫能夠趕快進行，確實……"],["陳院長建仁：是，如果他們都市計畫有任何問題需要請教，我也可以請內政部幫忙。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["陳院長建仁：如果他們都沒有動，我們現在也有一點困擾……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我在這裡拜託，中央跟地方應該也要有一些時間，譬如幾個月內大家一起合作、一起討論……"],["陳院長建仁：我知道，你說的是期程，把期程訂下來……"],["黃委員秀芳：碰到什麼樣的問題，時間期程讓我們知道，也讓一般民眾知道，知道現在碰到什麼問題、未來可能下一步要做什麼、又碰到什麼問題？我覺得應該把這個做出來，不然……"],["陳院長建仁：我們是這樣想的，看哪些事情是內政部國土署可以做的、什麼是交通部可以做的，而什麼是縣政府要做的，我們把它分清楚。像你說的，3個月向你們報告一次，這沒有問題，但報告時我們也來看何種單位應該負責的部分是不是負責到底，若沒有負責到底的話，我們也要跟民眾說，沒負責到底是交通部做不好，還是縣政府的問題。"],["黃委員秀芳：院長，我要講的是，軌道建設也是我們在小英政府時期講的……"],["陳院長建仁：很重要。"],["黃委員秀芳：就是前瞻基礎建設裡面的軌道建設，而臺中捷運綠線是這個軌道建設之一，其實8年都快過了，可行性評估才剛通過，所以我是認為這個應該是政府的一個重大建設，是中央跟地方大家一起合作。"],["陳院長建仁：對，同意。"],["黃委員秀芳：就是不分這個是地方的事情。"],["陳院長建仁：我們會努力。"],["黃委員秀芳：當然就是我們一起把這件建設完成，因為我們知道，臺灣人很喜歡到日本去玩，為什麼很喜歡到日本去玩？它的交通建設做得很完善，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果我們也可以將整個臺灣的軌道建設、整個交通建設也做得很完善，其實國家是整個提升的，所以就是不要分中央跟地方。"],["陳院長建仁：其實交通部急得要命，希望彰化縣政府能夠快點做什麼事情，就是他們很急，但是只有一邊急就沒用，要兩邊才有用。我們交通部實際上在軌道建設的部分，你看這一次的綠線延伸，我們會有可行性核定，還有有條件性的核定，就是我們也急著要把它趕快推出來，所以這個我們會全力以赴。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，好。剛好部長也在這邊，其實剩下幾秒鐘的時間，我希望說部長可能要去討論一下整個臺灣的道路，大家有講到，這個道路可能對行人很不友善，所以可能要去做一個整體的盤點，如果要讓開車的人或是行人都要安全，第一個，你可能要有一些譬如說停車場；整個人行道要怎麼去規劃等等，我覺得這個應該要去做一個整體的設計，這個我請交通部這邊可能要再多用心一點。"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，現在院長也核定了永續人行安全計畫、400億、從113年開始，然後是地方提案，我們來協助，這部分我想彰化有這個需求，縣政府……現在經費是充裕的。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員秀芳的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第20號呂委員玉玲質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳秉叡","丁學忠","黃珊珊","林岱樺","陳雪生","張啓楷","徐富癸","謝衣鳯","林國成","蔡其昌","萬美玲","黃秀芳","呂玉玲"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2024-02-27"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00011","1130401_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130401_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.04221875,"end":14.745968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.93596875,"end":15.437843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.027843750000002,"end":23.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.347843750000003,"end":26.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.69346875,"end":87.84846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.87471875000001,"end":55.752218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.439093750000005,"end":61.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.95784375,"end":64.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.24096875000001,"end":87.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.88221875,"end":92.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.99534375,"end":94.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.91909375,"end":98.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.85096875,"end":99.62721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.74534375,"end":104.25096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.72346875000001,"end":107.89596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.45284375000001,"end":115.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.72596875,"end":120.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.29909375000001,"end":125.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.59784375000001,"end":129.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.30596875,"end":136.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.63409375,"end":138.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.82784375,"end":142.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.65846875,"end":145.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.11784375000002,"end":149.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.74596875,"end":152.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.74534375000002,"end":155.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.41596875000002,"end":174.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.91784375,"end":157.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.56221875,"end":164.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.28784375,"end":165.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.75471875000002,"end":191.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.25534375,"end":184.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.62971875000002,"end":193.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.87409375000001,"end":195.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.76409375,"end":200.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.62409375000001,"end":205.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.31534375,"end":209.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.70284375,"end":211.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.27221875,"end":226.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.86471875,"end":227.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.16409375,"end":243.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.19971875000002,"end":250.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.77659375000002,"end":255.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.45096875000002,"end":255.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.50159375,"end":257.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.53534375,"end":255.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.88971875000001,"end":255.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.99096875000004,"end":256.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.02471875000003,"end":256.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.42534375,"end":257.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.44221875,"end":268.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.52909375,"end":273.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.33846875,"end":273.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.35096875,"end":275.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.95409375,"end":282.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.41284375000004,"end":286.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.38721875000005,"end":287.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.80034375,"end":287.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.37409375000004,"end":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。"},{"start":882.58,"end":908.757,"text":"好,那剛剛部長也在這邊,其實在剩下幾秒鐘的時間,我希望說部長可能要去討論一下整個臺灣的這個道路,大家講的這個道路可能對行人很不友善,可能要去做一個整體的一個盤點,那如果說讓開車的人或者是這個行人都要安全,"},{"start":909.397,"end":910.338,"text":"觀眾委員報告現在院長的"},{"start":942.369,"end":950.306,"text":"謝謝黃委員秀芳的質詢。也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第20號旅委員玉琳質詢。"}]}},{"id":"149153","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149153","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e96810fbdd100f9154ed354c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a6dc3fb96d4c95e3195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"16:15:43 - 16:46:27","影片長度":"00:30:44","會議時間":"2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-27","duration":1844,"end_time":"2024-02-27T16:46:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-27T16:15:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":443,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（16時15分）謝謝主席，我們有請陳建仁院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：萬委員午安，恭喜你當選立委。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝，院長好。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["萬委員美玲：院長，這是您在520之前應該是最後一次可以來質詢您了。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["萬委員美玲：今天的議題其實非常多，首先我想請教一下，您應該知道聯合報在每年年底有一個活動，這個活動您過去也有參與過，就是它會針對臺灣民眾，然後請一些人寫出一個字代表整個臺灣在這段期間之內，或者那一年內社會的樣貌，那在您任內2023的時候，我們看到那個字是「缺」，這您有印象嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：因為很早以前，我曾經寫過一個字被選為當年的字，但是去年是「缺」，這個我不知道，因為好久沒看聯合報了。"],["萬委員美玲：哎呀！要看啊！因為在2012年的時候，您寫過一個「憂」；2020年的時候，您寫過一個「疫」，所以參與過，我們也知道聯合報一直在舉辦這樣的活動，它有它的意義性，也可以反映出社會的樣態。那我們來看，當然在過去這8年當中，這些字上面看起來好像都比較負面一點，但是它可能反映的其實是……"],["陳院長建仁：以往也都很負面。"],["萬委員美玲：它會很負面，它可能反映的都是一些老百姓現在的心聲。"],["陳院長建仁：民間的疾苦啦！"],["萬委員美玲：但是足以讓我們執政的人來看一看什麼地方是……"],["陳院長建仁：反省，對！"],["萬委員美玲：應該要加強改善的，反而我們應該用正面去看待反映出的這個問題。所以本席就前年2022年的時候，一個是「漲」，去年就是「缺」，而「缺」這個事是在您當行政院長這一年當中，今天早上我有聽到您在備詢的時候特別有講到，我們看到「漲」這個字，在早上好像你有回應說，我們在今年電價確定要漲，這是真的嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：電價現在在請電價審議委員會來盤點，因為每一年電價審議委員會都會就電價是否要調整來做討論，所以我們現在確實有這樣的啟動討論的機制。"],["萬委員美玲：好，所以聽起來是今年確定要漲，有沒有說什麼時候會漲，還是還在討論階段？"],["陳院長建仁：一般是在4月1號公布。"],["萬委員美玲：4月1號會公布……"],["王部長美花：現在都會在3月份討論。"],["萬委員美玲：極有可能會要漲。"],["王部長美花：對。"],["萬委員美玲：所以我在想當我們看到「漲」這個字的時候，我們很希望看到它是漲薪資，它是生育率漲，正向的，但是我們今天聽到漲電價，我想大家其實就是陷入很大的憂心。"],["陳院長建仁：因為那個……"],["萬委員美玲：好，那你漲沒有關係，我們……"],["陳院長建仁：因為燃料也在漲。"],["萬委員美玲：我們只能被迫接受嘛，有很多原因，但是我們來討論「缺」這這個事情，在上一屆的會期當中，我有跟您討論過「缺」，兩樣事情本席非常在意，我相信院長也有放在心裡，一個是缺護理師，非常缺；第二個就是客運司機非常缺，這兩件事，今天老問題，但是越來越嚴重，我必須還要再跟您繼續做討論。","我們來看到缺護理人員這個部分，根據全球資料庫網站最新的公布，臺灣在醫療照護指數上面再次奪得了世界第一，這是我們共同的驕傲。同時在調查報告中顯示，在醫療可近性、醫療費用的性價比，還有合理性，我們也都是全球第一，這也是我們大家共同努力來的，我想這都是要讚許的。不過，我們看到在平均餘命、新生兒死亡率、可避免死亡率、疾病別死亡率，以及癌症5年的存活率等等非常重要的健康指標，也在國際期刊上面看到，我們的排名竟然掉到了35到37的世界排名……"],["陳院長建仁：看哪一種疾病，對。"],["萬委員美玲：同時在亞洲各國，我們還輸給了日本、南韓跟新加坡，當然這是有好的，也有不好的，這些都可以讓我們來參考。"],["陳院長建仁：當然，但是整體的成績我們是第一。"],["萬委員美玲：但是院長，你知道為什麼會出現這樣的落差？我想我們來討論看看，社區醫院協會理事長朱益宏有提出一個說法，他說臺灣新生兒的死亡率、平均餘命等等這些指標落後其他國家，他認為凸顯出醫療人力及預算資源的投入不足，才有這樣的結果。當然我也看到我們薛瑞元部長有回應要再觀察看看；同時，我認為在護理師不足的這件事情上面，恐怕也是一個很大的問題，這也呼應了朱益宏理事長的說法，即醫療人力的不足。所以本席不希望臺灣世界第一的醫療照護是建立在剝削或壓榨基層護理師而得到的。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我可以講一下？護理師的不足……"],["萬委員美玲：院長，不好意思，你可能先聽，我覺得聆聽這件事情非常重要。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我有聽，但是我覺得……"],["萬委員美玲：我會給您時間回答，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好，OK。"],["萬委員美玲：再來，世界第一的醫療照護，這麼棒的成績，我們不希望臺灣護理師的工作壓力也成為世界第一，這都是我們不希望看到的。","我對於薛瑞元部長其實寄予厚望，有一件事情我是非常肯定您的，在我們桃園疫情期間，那個時候，所有診所、上千家的診所沒有防疫的物資，我記得我在一個禮拜五的深夜打電話給您，您二話不說去盤點，你也沒有因為我不是執政黨的委員跟你反映這個問題就置之不理，禮拜天9萬份的所有防疫物資來到桃園，下放給所有診所，這件事情當時的鄭文燦市長也知道，我們都非常感謝中央不分黨派，只做防疫。","但我們看到，部長上來以後，其實這一份肯定有稍稍失望，我非常持平地在講這件事情，尤其我們看到這次衛福部所公告的夜班獎勵金引發很多爭議，我想再來跟您回憶一次。我們看到不管是醫學中心、區域醫院或是地區醫院，小夜班、大夜班的獎金是不一致的，這件事情在基層已經快要爆炸了，各界人士也給你很多建言，我們也有算出來地區醫院的護理師如果一整個月都輪值大夜班，這22天下來，每個月會比醫學中心的薪資少了8,800元，一年下來超過10萬元，你知道這個對於基層的護理人員來說非常不公平、心裡不舒服，也有很多的護理師就在想是不是大家都要往醫學中心去？你是不是逼著地區醫院的醫護人員、護理人員出走？這是第一個。第二個，上次我有跟陳院長討論過，也就是我們老是只重視大夜班，我們沒有說大夜班不重要，而是我們覺得白班也非常重要，當然我也很肯定，在上次我質詢完畢之後，院長您也接受這樣的建議，所以去年11月你有說你會研究白天班的工作繁重加給，很棒，這代表你也知道他們工作繁重。本席想請教院長，現在這個工作繁重加給的進度到哪裡了？什麼時候會給予？"],["陳院長建仁：現在在研議中，我是不是請部長來說明？"],["萬委員美玲：可以。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，工作繁重加給的部分我們正在規劃設計，我預計大概在下半年就可以開始實施。"],["萬委員美玲：下半年？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["萬委員美玲：有說幾月份嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：幾月份我沒有辦法說得很確定，因為它是……"],["萬委員美玲：對不起，院長，這樣我覺得有點可惜。"],["陳院長建仁：我跟委員……"],["萬委員美玲：520之前你有沒有辦法做到？"],["陳院長建仁：我當然也是想越快越好，但是就好像大、小夜班，你看不同等級的醫院就有很多不同的意見，你也清楚。"],["萬委員美玲：所以院長，520之前沒有辦法做到？"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們現在要加強來溝通、瞭解。"],["萬委員美玲：因為這是您提出來的，如果可以在520之前做到，那不是很完美嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我當然很希望，但是我們要實際一點，就是說……"],["萬委員美玲：所以要到下半年，那下半年一定會做嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：會，因為第一個這個要有預算，預算的部分我們大概已經有了。"],["萬委員美玲：這當然要有預算。我想如果今天可以得到一個承諾說下半年一定會做，那麼我們也希望如果520前無法實施，至少告訴我們大概在幾月份可以去做，這是第一個。"],["薛部長瑞元：OK。"],["萬委員美玲：第二個，我們為了要解決護理人力荒，大家當然是想破頭，目前你們的作法是降低國考的門檻，還有提高各類護理校系招收的名額。"],["薛部長瑞元：有12個措施。"],["萬委員美玲：就這兩件事嘛！但是我想……"],["陳院長建仁：有12個措施，不是兩件事，12件事。"],["萬委員美玲：好，就是相關的措施。去年度考選部在11月9號突然公告說降低護理國考的門檻，要把難度比較高的也是比較重要的一門科目叫做基礎醫學，2024開始起我們的比重要從原來的20%調降成10%，而且這過程當中有一些粗糙。所以不管是臺大醫院的企業工會或者是基層很多的護理師、醫院的人，大家都非常的擔心，非常擔心也非常不贊同，大家認為這個是叫做踐踏護理專業，而且是罔顧病人的安全喔！院長，其實我要說，事實上我們缺的從來不是這個執照的人數，而是能不能留得住這些護理師、要有好的環境。","接下來我要跟你討論的事很重要，我也希望你能夠聽一下，根據衛福部自己給我最新的統計，目前護理人員總執業率是63%，領證的人數是30萬人，而執業的人數卻只有只有18萬人，很多人不願意投入到這職場，不是沒有人，是大家不願意留在這個職場內，所以這非常的重要，那麼這有什麼問題呢？薪資結構當然是一個。第二個，他們所期待的三班護病比入法這件事情，我們要再加快腳步，但我回頭來講，三班護病比入法，你要有人我才有辦法有三班啦！所以這會變成一個惡性循環喔！所以當然……"],["陳院長建仁：不會啦！良性啦！"],["萬委員美玲：本席更不以為然的還有一件事情，其實賴清德副總統在競選的時候政見有說到要解決護理師荒，他是要增加喔！他去增加所謂護理師相關科系的招生名額，上個會期我也講過這個方向真的是錯的，真的是錯的！您聽聽看，請我們教育部長也上來。一直以來統測護衛類的報考人數大概就在3%多，這是第一個。第二個，我們看到這個表格，大家可以看一下，在護理的相關科系別，五專、二年制、四年制、學士後等等，我們都可以看到註冊率都是在75%，最多的在92%，這代表什麼意思？白話來說就是我們都已經招不滿了，你提高沒有意義啊！你提高只是讓這個註冊率更低而已喔！","再來，上面還發生一個問題，院長不知道能不能看得出來？也就是說，很奇怪喔！現在大家註冊率最高的在五專、二專，我們反而把它的名額降下來，就過去大家最喜歡的、都願意去註冊的，我們反而把它所核定的名額降下來；報到率很低的、沒有人要去的，我們還把它名額升上來，教育部啊！這怎麼回事啊？我想……"],["陳院長建仁：我想……我可以回答嗎？"],["萬委員美玲：院長，我把它講完。我想因為數據在這個地方，是不是要回去檢討一下？第一個，我們要提高招生名額，這個方向錯了；第二個，這個方式也不對，因為以前註冊率就是不高……"],["陳院長建仁：這個要問護理學會跟護理師公會啦！他們對於護理師在訓練的過程當中希望達到什麼樣的level，那你可能也很清楚，你可能專家比我清楚，現在我們希望每一個護理師都得到比較完整的教育體制，我想護理學會一向是如此嘛！你也很清楚。"],["萬委員美玲：院長，所以你講的我認同，但我講的你沒有注意聽，你講的我完全認同，但是重點就在於如果在國考那個階段，我們把最重要的然後大家感覺比較難的那個科目，把它比重往下降，那大家當然會擔心說新考進來的會不會在專業的上面或者是在過去的培養上面好像欠缺一點點？這是第一個。","第二個，它不是招生名額的問題，因為我們有看到嘛！我們有執照的人有這麼多，但是願意留在職場護理師的人是六成，大概就是六成左右，所以我們要來討論的是要怎麼樣提升他的薪資。本席再講一次，最重要的就是我們要怎麼樣提升他們的薪資、給他好的環境，把他留住在業界裡面，這才是重點，不曉得我這樣講院長跟薛部長同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才講過，讓護理人員願意留任這裡面有很多的措施，剛才已經講，那薪資是其中之一，當然是嘛！很重要，但是除此之外，他就業的成就感、民眾對他的重視以及他能不能有進修等等這些都很重要，我們部長剛才說還有一些意見……"],["萬委員美玲：院長，我想這些問題當然都很重要，但是我相信在薪資跟改善環境……"],["陳院長建仁：你讓他講一下……"],["萬委員美玲：我想將來我們在衛環委員會還會再跟部長來就教，我們希望我們共同找出問題，看到問題不用覺得好像很可恥，還是看到問題不想面對，不是，看到問題要高興，因為我們就知道怎麼去解決了，可是要面對。","接下來，院長，為什麼我討論過那麼多次，本席非常關心護理人員荒，因為這關係的是全國人民的健康，尤其在桃園，院長知道嗎？我真的覺得本席的選區桃園真的很可憐，桃園的平均床數在六都倒數第五，而且每萬人口只有27.5張的一般病床，只有2.68張的加護病床，這很可怕！1萬個人只能去搶27張病床。你看，現在護理人員不足，我們還一直關床，然後我們桃園市人口一直在增加，所以這個問題非常恐怖，您可以從這個數據上看到，這在我們桃園是一個很嚴重的問題喔！","再者，我真的替我們桃園叫屈，在這一次醫學中心的升格評鑑，我們要知道，桃園有一個長庚醫院算醫學中心，之於桃園人來說，只能算0.3或0.5間吧？因為在新北市，其實醫學中心是大家在共用的，原本桃園地區所有的民眾們都引領期盼這一次醫學中心的升格會是花落桃園啦！本來應該是要在去年12月公布的，可是看起來選前沒有公布，直到選後，所以桃園大家也都在說這莫非是衛福部、行政院在懲罰桃園，只因為桃園可能在立委的選舉，國民黨6席全上，原來連之前王必勝次長都常常跟我們說他非常肯定桃園部立醫院，我們有最好的醫師、最好的護理師，他們有最好的服務、最好的態度、最好的專業，而這次中箭落馬，對他們來說、對整個部桃來說，是很大的一個挫折，對桃園市民來說，也是很大的不公平啦！所以我非常非常的期待，讓桃園的醫療能夠再升級一點。好，這件事過去了，但是有一件事，即現在病床數不足的問題，部桃現在正在興建第二醫療大樓，我們也確定行政院已經核定了，對嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["萬委員美玲：關於這一點，我想我代表整個桃園市所有的市民謝謝院長、謝謝行政院願意核定部桃的第二醫療大樓。現在看起來，我從公文上面看到總預算經費是85億，對嗎？85億對嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該差不多。"],["萬委員美玲：這個85億其中自償性經費53億要部桃自籌，非自償20億、地下戰備空間6億，這個部分由中央公建計畫來支應，然後醫療儀器的設備5億，如果這個工程順利完工，這個5億中央一樣從公建計畫當中補充。這出了一個問題了，部桃要去哪裡找這53億啊？顯然現在的公共工程如果要能夠順利都有一點困難，所有的工程都是喔！所以看起來醫療儀器的設備5億搞不好也會落在部桃的地方……"],["陳院長建仁：所有的醫院都是這樣。"],["萬委員美玲：我把部桃現在的現狀讓院長知道一下喔！現在部桃準備要拿出的是它歷年來辛苦所賺的積蓄所得40億，把40億拿出來但還是不夠，怎麼辦？它現在要再去貸款40億，為什麼還要貸款到40億呢？因為我們有一個新屋分院也在蓋，第二醫療大樓現在也在蓋，也是行政院核定的，有核定我都感謝，然後部桃還有急症中心、動力中心也都需要錢，所以貸款40億，院長你不能光核定卻不給錢啊！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我想你可能不太瞭解什麼叫做自償性經費，為什麼叫做自償性？因為一旦醫院擴增了以後，它就開始會有收入，這個收入它會慢慢的來償還，衛福部醫院統統都是這樣子，不是只有對桃園這樣，而且每一個醫院也都是因為這樣，但是其自償性的部分都能夠達到目標嘛！譬如旗山醫院也好或者是臺北醫院也好，都是這樣子的，我們是一視同仁。我們也知道桃園很重要，所以你看看，我們馬上核定桃園的兩個醫院，所以這個自償性的部分你不用替他們擔心。"],["萬委員美玲：院長，我非常理解，但是我一定要替他們擔心，真的，因為我替他們擔心就是幫助我們全桃園市市民的健康，所以我相信您也很重視……"],["陳院長建仁：它會提供很好的醫療照顧。"],["萬委員美玲：我相信我們薛瑞元部長也很重視，所以本席也希望在這個過程當中，有需要讓他們去花掉所有過去的積蓄40億，尤其這40億依我的理解，關於部桃很多的軟硬體設備的添購、維修都會要用到這個錢，將來會不會有排擠？我也是希望在會後，部長是不是能夠把部桃請來，好好的開個會，去研究一下，核定給我們以後，這當然非常重要，因為現在第二醫療大樓要擴建大概400床的病床，而且還要增加外科手術室、負壓隔離病房、高危險產房、嬰兒室等等，我們希望絕對不能延宕，但是這不會是部桃自己就有辦法把這個工程好好地全部完成的……"],["薛部長瑞元：可以的，我們……"],["萬委員美玲：我們希望中央……"],["薛部長瑞元：衛福部也會協助它啦！"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！"],["萬委員美玲：對，就是希望衛福部要全力協助……"],["薛部長瑞元：我們也會協助它啦！"],["萬委員美玲：也希望……"],["陳院長建仁：這是它的baby嘛！"],["萬委員美玲：院長在520之前能夠再多關注一下這個案子，能夠給予更多的補助，對部桃來講會更公平一些，所以這個議題，會後我也希望有個機會跟薛瑞元部長，我們再約個時間仔細地討論一下，怎麼樣讓部桃的這個工程儘快完成。"],["薛部長瑞元：不過有一件事情我先跟委員做一個很簡短的報告……"],["萬委員美玲：不好意思，因為……"],["薛部長瑞元：我們的護理人力，往年都是12月開始減少，1月就一直降、一直降，降到4月，5月以後才上來，今年因為我們的措施下去，1月沒有減少，所以人力是穩住啦！"],["萬委員美玲：部長，這個我覺得不用提了，我都有看到你在媒體上面的說法了……"],["陳院長建仁：媒體的資訊不見得即時啦！"],["萬委員美玲：我想這個有很多值得商榷的地方，這裡我們不用……"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得……"],["萬委員美玲：我們今天做有建設性的東西，不要在這裡討論這個了。"],["陳院長建仁：委員你這樣講人力的部分……"],["萬委員美玲：院長，我們討論下一題好不好？我會找時間跟薛部長再來研究這件事情。"],["陳院長建仁：你這樣子是根據不實的數據來質詢，也不太好吧！"],["萬委員美玲：我們來討論下一題，這一題我會再找時間跟薛部長，我們再來討論。我們一樣談缺客運司機這個部分，去年其實我有跟院長示警過，關於疫情時期很多的客運司機、業者都不在這個行業上，所以TPASS1200通勤月票上路之後，真的是有優惠、有票，但沒有車，這在很多地方都有。當然，交通部也提出了獎勵的措施，3億9,000萬，公共運輸駕駛擴大徵才獎勵方案，本來是希望招募客運駕駛1,800人、遊覽車司機3,000人，但目前只招到客運司機868人、遊覽車司機94人，執行率剛剛好站上20%，所以這執行率是非常差的。本席希望部長跟院長可以再討論一下，這樣的方案執行率這麼差，需不需要再做一個調整？以桃客為例，去年桃客2月份的時候跟交通部提報了149名司機的缺額，透過這個方案也不過才徵到了38名，缺額高達111名。還有更離譜的是什麼？這個方案是去年3月實施的，結果到去年12月，我們發現你實施完這個方案，全國客運的人數不增反減，這是很誇張的事情，所以這個政策顯然有需要調整跟改變的地方。","當然，過去跟部長、跟院長在討論的時候，於適法性也好，於實際的狀況也好，於你們對這個問題不夠瞭解也好，常常都說地方縣市政府也要自己來處理。但我必須要講，地方縣市政府財源狀況不一，所以沒有辦法每一個人都可以祭出像張善政市長這樣子，業者提供2,000塊，我們再下8,000，每個月1萬給我們的司機，讓他們可以留住不離開，甚至在新考進來的司機員訓練當中，我們也可以撥錢給他，但不是每個縣市都做得到的，如果是這樣的話，那乾脆各縣市自己獨立就好，我們要中央幹嘛！所以我們還是非常希望仰賴交通部、仰賴行政院，想辦法來做。","當然，缺司機最嚴重的代表性，在桃園也就是5203A、1662、1356、9005，這都是原本今年到期以後業者就不續約了，當然部長那天有提到說你不會讓它斷線，但你沒有提到你不會讓它斷線的時間可以維持多久，是半年不會斷線、1年不會斷線、永久不會斷線？這是第一個問題。第二個，不只是剛剛所說的5203A、1662、1356、9005，包括我們的9023、9009、5009等等，這些都是到臺北、新北非常重要的一個路線，所以我想請教我們的部長、院長，可以承諾桃園這些聯外道路的公車、國道客運都不會斷線，這是永久的嗎？"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，事實上你剛才談到擴大徵才就業，我們全國已經總共有1,454人，的確這個環境很多人在疫情以後就不願意回來。我上次提到因為地方的公車部分，這可能在市政府，國道客運的部分，我們……"],["萬委員美玲：不好意思，那個……"],["王部長國材：所以中央跟地方要一起努力來做。"],["萬委員美玲：部長，我是想請教你一下，您那時候回答的絕對不會斷線，指的是永久的嗎？"],["王部長國材：現在如果有斷線，我們馬上有人去接替，，現在是用這種方式。"],["萬委員美玲：所以只能做階段性的，做緊急階段性的處理嘛？"],["王部長國材：我們當然是接替以後再發包，再找新的業主。"],["萬委員美玲：部長跟院長，我們再來討論一個問題，我想客運商業同業公會全國聯合會在去年10月17號曾經提出一個方案，就是他們希望運價要調漲，也希望增加營運的補貼，這個方案我聽說還是在部長您的桌上，現在到了什麼樣的地方了？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，我們過去給公車的這些補助，有增加兩塊錢是給公車司機的，這個有在做。當然，審查過的這個討論，我們必須經過一個委員會，事實上這個程序還沒有在我的辦公室……"],["萬委員美玲：所以還在審議，還在審議委員那裡嘛？"],["王部長國材：還沒有在我桌子上，因為我每天都會把文看完。"],["萬委員美玲：我覺得既然我們有心要協助，速度要加快。另外，本席認為，其實把國道運價跟客運的運價調漲，這不是不可行，因為過去我們運價大概有17年左右不曾調漲，現在所有的成本都往上漲，是可以考慮的時候。當然TPASS上路之後，我們看到特別是桃園到臺北、桃園到新北的國道客運公車，以及基隆到臺北的部分，這比較屬於特殊通勤路線，因為生活圈、工作圈都在一塊，所以剛才我們說到不管9005、9023、9009、5009，現在的狀況其實都非常吃緊，都是去的時候大排長龍，常常過了兩、三班都上不了車，看起來是爆滿的量，可是回程沒有客人，所以其實業者都還是虧損狀態，當然他們就會不想要開嘛，就不想要繼續行駛這條路線。我們是不是能夠請部長在這邊跟我們承諾一下，院長看看有沒有辦法支持？我們來想辦法解決這樣的一個問題。第一個，能夠在運價調漲的這件事情上面再給予一些支持，但是必須要在這裡承諾，我們會增加這個補貼，絕對不會轉嫁到消費者的身上，這是第一個。第二個，針對剛才我特別提到的，這幾年開始我們特殊服務的通勤路線，是不是可以把補貼在這個特殊服務路線上面的部分，給予我們桃園或者基隆，特別我們桃園再多一些些的補貼？可不可以給我們這樣的方案？"],["王部長國材：我們目前有補貼機制，基本上就是運價跟實際成本的差，有它的關係。剛才您提到如果它最後整個成本提高，我們補貼額本身就會跟著提高，這個本來就會這樣做。現在這個本身要經過一個機制，包括我們公路局的審查機制，我想等他們審查機制出來，我們再一一協助。"],["萬委員美玲：我相信一定要審查，沒有什麼事情是說了馬上可以做的。第一個，速度要快；第二個，本席剛剛特別講到的桃園啦，這些路線有非常多條，我們的聯外通勤路線，尤其是國道路線非常地多，這些比較特別的特殊服務路線，本席在這裡建請院長、部長，希望針對這些路線讓他們能夠繼續安心地行駛下去，讓我們桃園市的市民在國道路線上面要往返臺北、新北，這種大共同生活圈的工作圈，不至於沒有公車可以搭，那也會失了TPASS的一個美意，能不能對我們這個特殊服務的路線提出一個補貼的方案？"],["王部長國材：我們沒有辦法說特別啦，因為國道客運全國都有，但是我們是確保它通行不會停止，這個是我們可以決定的。"],["萬委員美玲：你如果沒有一個特殊服務路線的補貼方案，你很難確保、很難有信服度，所以我想這個是……"],["王部長國材：我意思是說不要用特殊。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有特殊方案，這全國性的啦。"],["王部長國材：比如說它成本如果提高以後，審查通過，我們就補貼比較多。"],["萬委員美玲：好，部長，這個是我今天跟您提出來的，如果你還有更好的方式，會後我要拜託部長來我辦公室，我們來討論一下，絕對不可以讓我們桃園市9005、9023、9009、5009等等聯外的這些公車斷線。"],["王部長國材：瞭解。"],["萬委員美玲：這是我們絕對不同意的，好不好？"],["王部長國材：對，我們……"],["萬委員美玲：所以這再拜託您一下，好不好？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝。最後我想，院長，剩下一點點時間討論的是鐵路地下化，我們桃園市的鐵路地下化真的因為工程發包的一再流標，所以一直在延宕。"],["陳院長建仁：那是因為有文資調查的部分。"],["萬委員美玲：一直在延宕。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["萬委員美玲：我們秀一下這個表格，這當中我們也看到因為不斷的流標，有一個很嚴重的狀況出來了，我們看到在這個臨時軌電子聯鎖系統工程，第一次招標的預算八億多、決標的金額12億，增加了三億多，這還不是最嚴重的；往下看，我們在中壢車站的鐵路地下化已經決標了，它第一次開標124億，然而最近的這次開標決標出去155億，這個相差31億喔；那更遑論桃園車站鐵路地下化、中路車站鐵路地下化，都還沒有標出去喔，我們就個別增加了26億跟35億都還標不出去。","這個問題非常嚴重，這會造成原本我們要負擔的那個25%增加非常多，也會增加桃園市政府財政上的困難，所以這一點我們希望會後能不能夠要求我們院長，增加的部分不要轉嫁給我們桃園市政府，中央來想辦法為我們解決，能不能會後讓部長以專案我們來討論這個部分，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：我請部長再跟您討論。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬委員美玲的質詢，也謝謝陳院長。","接下來我們請登記第19位黃委員秀芳，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳秉叡","丁學忠","黃珊珊","林岱樺","陳雪生","張啓楷","徐富癸","謝衣鳯","林國成","蔡其昌","萬美玲","黃秀芳","呂玉玲"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2024-02-27"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00011","1130401_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130401_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.01346875,"end":6.207218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.4772187500000005,"end":7.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.53096875,"end":16.551593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.336593750000002,"end":17.294093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.15909375,"end":17.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.73284375,"end":25.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.309718750000002,"end":25.714718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.90034375,"end":47.618468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.10784375,"end":53.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.229093750000004,"end":66.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.80534375,"end":89.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.79034375,"end":82.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.52346875,"end":89.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.29534375,"end":125.73284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.19784375,"end":95.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.20971875000001,"end":99.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.05346875000001,"end":135.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.43596875,"end":143.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.43034375000002,"end":149.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.42534375,"end":151.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.75409375,"end":170.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.95659375,"end":153.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.56784375,"end":155.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.37596875,"end":169.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.57409375,"end":169.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.77659375000002,"end":172.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.07596875000002,"end":188.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.74409375000002,"end":193.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.63784375,"end":198.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.00409375,"end":248.53221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.52471875,"end":244.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.78534375,"end":253.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.28284375,"end":251.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.44721875000002,"end":255.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.01659375000003,"end":255.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.33284375000002,"end":278.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.95784375,"end":311.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.72221875,"end":306.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.69159375000004,"end":309.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.93596875000003,"end":313.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.11721875,"end":312.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.72471875,"end":315.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.44596875,"end":315.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.99846875000003,"end":342.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.03221875,"end":429.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.73596875000004,"end":455.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.89659375,"end":455.26784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01",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所公告的夜班獎勵金的這件事情引發很多的爭議我想再來跟您這個回憶一次"},{"start":381.263,"end":398.619,"text":"我們看到不管是醫學中心區域醫院或者是地區醫院小夜班、大夜班這個獎金是不一致的這件事情在基層已經真的快要爆炸了那各界人士也給你很多的建言我們也有算出來地區醫院的護理師如果他一整個月他都是輪值大夜班這22天下來"},{"start":400,"end":428.918,"text":"每一個月他會比醫學中心薪資要少了8800塊一年下來超過10萬塊你知道這個對基層的會員來說非常不公平心理不舒服那也有很多的這個護理師大家呢就在想那是不是大家通通要往醫學中心去你是不是逼著地區醫院醫護人員護理人員去出走這是第一個那第二個呢這是上一次我有跟這個陳院長這個討論過的也就是我們老是只重視大夜班"},{"start":429.798,"end":455.257,"text":"但我們沒有說大夜班不重要而是我們覺得白班也非常的重要當然我也很肯定院長在上次我質詢完畢的時候您也接受了這樣子一個建議所以你也說到去年11月你有說你會研究我們白天班的工作繁重加級所以呢很棒這代表你也知道他們工作繁重那本期想請教一下院長現在這個工作繁重加級進度到哪裡了什麼時候會給予"},{"start":456.258,"end":473.69,"text":"現在在研議中,我是不是請我部長來說?那跟委員報告齁,那工作繁重加擠的這一個部分我們正在規劃設計,我預計大概在下半年就可以開始實施。下半年?對。有說幾月份嗎?"},{"start":476.127,"end":490.986,"text":"那幾月份我沒有辦法說得很確定。那院長,這樣子我覺得有點可惜。2020之前你有沒有辦法做到?我當然也是想越快越好。但是呢,就好像這個大小月班齁,你看看。"},{"start":491.406,"end":493.088,"text":"我當然很希望但是但是我們要實際一點就是說那下半年一定會做嗎?"},{"start":512.888,"end":530.919,"text":"一定會因為這個第一個要有預算嘛預算的部分我們大概已經有了那我想如果今天還可以得到一個承諾下半年一定會做那麼我們也希望520之前如果我們沒有辦法去實施至少告訴我們大概在幾月份我們可以下去做"},{"start":531.8,"end":533.201,"text":"有12個措施,不是兩件事,12件事。"},{"start":552.441,"end":572.257,"text":"好這是相關的措施那去年度考選部在11月9號突然公告說降低護理國考的門檻那要把難度比較高的也是比較重要的一門科目叫做基礎醫學2024開始起我們的比重要從原來的20%調降成10%而且這過程當中有一些粗糙"},{"start":572.797,"end":599.488,"text":"所以不管是臺大醫院的企業公會或者是基層很多的護理師這個醫院的人大家都非常的擔心非常擔心也非常不贊同那大家認為這個是叫做踐踏護理專業而且是罔顧這個病人的安全那院長其實我要說事實上我們缺的從來不是叫做這個執照的人數而是能不能留得住"},{"start":600.348,"end":624.25,"text":"這些護理師好的環境那接下來我要跟你討論的是就很重要的我也希望您能夠聽一下也就是說根據衛福部自己給我最新的統計目前護理人員總職業率是63%領證的人數30%但職業的人數卻只有領證的人數是30萬人而職業人數卻只有18萬人就很多人不願意投入到這個職場不是沒有人"},{"start":624.65,"end":624.97,"text":"三班互併筆入法"},{"start":641.027,"end":664.078,"text":"所以這個會變成一個惡性循環所以當然本席更不以為然的還有一件事情就是其實我們在這個賴清德這個副總統他的在競選的時候政績有說到說要解決護理師荒他是要增加他去增加這個所謂的護理師的這個相關科系的招生名額上個會期我也講過這個方向真的是錯的"},{"start":666.08,"end":680.7,"text":"您聽聽看,我想我們教育部長也上來。我們一直以來統測護衛類的報考人數大概就在3%多,這是第一個。第二個呢,我們看到這個表格,大家可以看一下下一頁。"},{"start":681.661,"end":707.632,"text":"我們在這個相關的護理相關科系別五專二年制四年制學試後等等我們都可以看到注冊率都是在75%最多的在92%這代表什麼意思白話來說是我們都已經招不滿了你提高沒有意義你提高只是讓這個注冊率更低而已再來上面還發生一個問題院長不知道能不能看得出來也就是說很奇怪我們現在"},{"start":708.592,"end":709.092,"text":"我想我可以回答嗎?"},{"start":728.518,"end":755.86,"text":"議員長我把它講完喔那我想因為數據在這個地方喔是不是啊要回去檢討一下第一個如果我們要提高這個哨聲名這個方向也錯了第二個這個方式也不對因為以前註冊率就是就是這個要問護理師學會跟護理師工會啦他們對於護理師在訓練的過程當中希望達到怎麼樣的level那你可能也很清楚你可能專家比我清楚現在我們護理師希望每一個護理師都得到"},{"start":762.404,"end":778.293,"text":"議員長,所以你講的我認同,但我講的你沒有注意聽。你講的我完全認同。但是重點就在於,如果我們在國考那個階段,我們把最重要的,然後這個大家覺得比較難的那個科目,把它比重往下降,那大家當然會擔心,"},{"start":779.513,"end":779.534,"text":"﹝廣告〉"},{"start":796.832,"end":796.892,"text":"我剛才講過這個"},{"start":819.402,"end":820.423,"text":"護理人員願意留任﹖"},{"start":837.653,"end":862.471,"text":"議員長我想這些問題當然都很重要但是我相信在這個新思跟改善環境我想這個會後我將來我們在外環委員會還會再跟這個部長再來就教我們希望我們共同找出問題看到問題不用覺得說好像很可恥還是看到問題不想面對不是看到問題要高興因為我們就知道怎麼去解決了可是要面對那接下來我想"},{"start":863.251,"end":883.285,"text":"院長為什麼我討論過那麼多次那本席非常關心護理人員荒因為這關心的是關心的是全國人民的健康尤其在桃園院長知道嗎我真的覺得本席這個選區桃園真的很可憐桃園的這個平均床數在六都倒數第五而且每萬人口只有27.5張的一般病床"},{"start":886.747,"end":908.946,"text":"每萬人口只有27.5張一般病床只有2.68張的家戶病床這很可怕啊一萬個人只是去搶27張病床欸那你看喔現在護理人員不足我們還一直關床然後呢我們桃園市人口一直在增加所以這個問題非常恐怖喔所以你可以從這個數據上看到這在我們桃園它是一個很嚴重的問題喔那再者再來喔"},{"start":910.367,"end":936.563,"text":"我正替我們桃園教區本來在這一次醫學中心的升格的評鑑我們要知道桃園有一個長庚醫院算醫學中心那至於桃園人來說只能算0.3或0.5間吧因為其實在新北市其實這個醫學中心大家都在共用的那原本桃園地區所有的民眾們都引領期盼這一次的醫學中心的升格會是花落桃園"},{"start":938.044,"end":964.435,"text":"本來應該是在去年12月要公布的可是看起來選前沒有公布直到選後所以我們在桃園大家也都在說這莫非是這個衛福部行政院在懲罰我們桃園只因為桃園可能在這個立委的選舉國民黨六席權上結果原來啊連之前王必勝次長都常常跟我們說他非常肯定我們桃園不立議院我們有最好的醫師我們最好的護理師他們有最好的服務最好的態度最好的專業而這次縱見落馬"},{"start":966.996,"end":991.655,"text":"對他們來說對整個部桃來說是很大的一個挫折對桃園市民來說也是很大的不公平所以我想這就是我非常非常的期待我們能夠讓我們桃園的醫療能夠再升級一點這個是過去了但是有一件我們現在病床數不足的問題部桃現在正在興建第二醫療大樓那我們也確定行政院已經核定了對嗎對"},{"start":993.423,"end":1009.254,"text":"對好這一點我想我代表整個桃園市所有的市民謝謝院長謝謝行政院願意合併我們的這個部桃這個第二醫療大樓那現在看起來我從這個我們的公文上面看到我們總預算經費是85億對嗎"},{"start":1015.523,"end":1037.474,"text":"85億對嗎?對,差不多。好,這個85億,其中自償性經費53億要我們不逃自籌。非自償20億地下戰備空間6億,這個部分中央由工建計畫來支應。然後我們醫療儀器的設備5億,如果這個工程順利完工,這個5億中央一樣從工建計畫當中會來補充。這出了一個問題了。"},{"start":1041.476,"end":1042.557,"text":"所有的醫院都是這樣?"},{"start":1061.135,"end":1081.3,"text":"布陶現在的現狀讓院長知道一下。現在布陶準備要拿出的是他歷年來辛苦所賺積蓄所得40億拿出來40億還是不夠怎麼辦他現在要再去貸款40億那為什麼還要貸款到40億呢因為我們有一個新屋分院也在蓋"},{"start":1082.22,"end":1110.357,"text":"第二醫療大樓現在也在蓋也是行政院合訂的合訂我的感謝然後呢我們這個部桃啊還有急症中心動力中心也都需要錢所以貸款40億那院長你不能光合訂啊然後不給錢啊委員我想你可能不太了解什麼叫做自償性經費為什麼叫做自償性因為一旦醫院開一擴增了以後呢他就會開始有這一個收入那這個收入呢他會慢慢的來償還"},{"start":1112.918,"end":1140.205,"text":"那這個衛福部看醫院通通是這樣子不是只有對桃園這樣所以我想而且每一個醫院也都是因為這樣但是他的治常性的部分都能夠達到目標嘛譬如說岐山醫院也好或者是臺北醫院也好都是這樣子的那我們是一視同仁我們也知道桃園很重要所以你看看桃園我們馬上核定兩個醫院所以這個治常性不用擔心你不用替他們擔心"},{"start":1141.085,"end":1154.741,"text":"我非常理解但是我一定要替他們擔心真的因為我替他們擔心就是幫助我們全桃園市的市民的健康所以我相信你也很重視我相信我們學院部長也很重視所以本市也希望在這個過程當中"},{"start":1155.882,"end":1171.308,"text":"有需要讓他們去花掉所有過去的積蓄這40億尤其這40億我的理解關於部桃很多的軟體設備的添購維修都會要用到這個錢將來會不會有排擠我也是希望在會後部長是不是能夠把部桃請來"},{"start":1173.169,"end":1202.095,"text":"那好好地開個會去研究一下那核定給我們以後啊這當然非常重要因為現在這第二醫療大樓啊要擴建大概400床的病床而且還要增加外科手術室負壓隔離病房高危險產房嬰兒室等等啊我們希望絕對不能延宕但是這不會是不逃啊自己就有辦法把它好好這個過程全部完成的我們希望中央啊衛福部也會協助他啦對就是希望衛福部要全力協助也希望啊就是"},{"start":1203.116,"end":1227.257,"text":"議員長在520之前能夠再多關注一下這個案子能夠給予更多的補助那對部桃來講會更公平一些那所以這個議題我想會後我也希望有個機會跟我們薛瑞文部長我們再約個時間仔細的討論一下怎麼樣讓部桃這個工程盡快完成不過有一件事情我先跟委員做一個很簡短的報告我們的護理人力"},{"start":1228.118,"end":1238.657,"text":"往年的話都是12月開始減少那1月就一直降一直降降到4月5月以後才上來今年因為我們的措施下去的話1月沒有減少"},{"start":1240.207,"end":1245.071,"text":"人力是文字媒體的資訊不見得及時我們今天做有建設性的東西不要在這裡討論這個了所以院長我們下一題好不好那我會找時間跟薛部長再來提出這些資訊"},{"start":1262.685,"end":1265.606,"text":"關於疫情的時期,很多的客運司機業者都不在這個行業上,所以TPAS 1200通勤月票上路之後,真的是"},{"start":1283.49,"end":1301.187,"text":"有優惠有票沒有車這在很多地方都有那當然我想我們交通部也提出了獎勵的措施3億9千萬公共運輸駕駛擴大徵才獎勵方案那本來是希望招募客運駕駛1800人遊覽車司機3000人但目前直到到客運司機868人遊覽車司機94人"},{"start":1305.07,"end":1327.842,"text":"﹗執行率剛好站上20%﹗所以這執行率是非常差的。那我本席希望部長跟院長可以再討論一下這樣的方案執行率這麼差需不需要再做一個調整。那以逃課為例去年逃課二月份的時候跟交通部提報了149名司機的缺額。透過這個方案也不過才增到了38名缺額高達111名。"},{"start":1331.664,"end":1346.649,"text":"還有更離譜的是這個方案是去年3月實施的結果到去年12月我們發現你實施完這個方案全國客運的人數不增反減這是很誇張的事情所以這個政策顯然有需要調整跟改變的地方"},{"start":1347.749,"end":1364.001,"text":"當然過去跟部長跟院長在討論的時候與司法系也好與實際的狀況也好與你們對這個問題不夠了解也好常常都說要地方縣市政府也要自己來處理但我必須要講地方縣市政府財源狀況不一"},{"start":1366.383,"end":1383.673,"text":"所以沒有辦法每一個人都可以寄出像張善政市場這樣子業者提供2000塊我們再下8000每個月1萬給我們的這個司機讓他們可以留住不離開那甚至於在這個新考進來的這個司機員在訓練當中我們也可以撥錢給他但不是每一個縣市都做得到的"},{"start":1383.993,"end":1385.995,"text":"當然吶,這個缺司機最嚴重的代表性我想在我桃園吶,也就是"},{"start":1400.572,"end":1419.926,"text":"五二零三A一六六二一三五六九零零五這都是原本今年要到期以後業者就不續約了當然部長那天有提到說你不會讓他斷線但你沒有提到你不會讓他斷線這個時間可以維持多久半年不會斷線一年永久不會斷線這是第一個問題"},{"start":1421.567,"end":1447.805,"text":"第二個就是說不只是剛剛所說的5203、1662、1356、9005包括我們的9023、9009、5009等等這些都是到臺北、新北非常重要的一個路線了所以我是想請教我們的部長、院長我們可以承諾桃園這些連外道路的公車、國道客運都不會斷線這是永久的嗎?"},{"start":1449.349,"end":1464.495,"text":"公委報告事實上你剛才談到擴大增台就業我們已經總共1454人全國的確在這個環境很多人疫情以後就不願意回來我上次提到因為地方的公車的部分這可能在市政府"},{"start":1464.955,"end":1470.157,"text":"我只是想請教您一下,您那時候回答的絕對不會斷線,指的是永久的嗎?所以只能做階段性的,做緊急階段性的處理嗎?我想喔,那個"},{"start":1486.061,"end":1508.245,"text":"部長跟院長我們再來討論一個問題我想這個客運商業同業公會全國聯合會在去年的10月17號曾經提出一個方案就是他們希望運價要調漲那也希望增加營運的補貼那這個方案我聽說還是在這個部長您的桌上那現在到了什麼樣的地方了我們過去的這個給"},{"start":1512.664,"end":1531.277,"text":"公車補助有增加兩塊錢是給公車司機的當然就是說審查過來的這個討論我們必須經過一個委員會那這個程序事實上還在審議委員那裡沒有在我桌子上因為我每天都會把他們看出來那我覺得既然我們有需要協助我們速度要加快"},{"start":1532.397,"end":1559.058,"text":"另外我想本席認為其實我們來把這個國道運價這客運的運價調漲這不是不可行那也就是說因為過去我們運價大概有17年左右不曾調漲那現在所有的成本都往上漲是可以考慮的時候那當然TPAS上路之後我們看到特別是桃園到台北桃園到新北的國道客運公車以及基隆到"},{"start":1559.778,"end":1581.912,"text":"台北這是比較屬於叫做特殊通勤路線因為生活圈工作圈都在一塊所以剛才我們說到不管9005、9023、9009、5009現在的狀況其實都非常吃緊都是去的時候大排長龍那常常過了兩三班都上不了車看起來是爆滿的量可是回程沒有客人"},{"start":1582.312,"end":1602.21,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":1602.21,"end":1602.23,"text":"﹚二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10﹚"},{"start":1619.55,"end":1631.919,"text":"是不是可以把這個補貼在這個特殊的這個服務路線上面給予我們桃園或者基隆特別我們桃園再多一些的補貼可不可以有這樣的一個這個方案來給我們"},{"start":1633.041,"end":1656.492,"text":"我目前有補貼機制基本上就是說印價跟實際成本的這個差有他的關係那剛才您提到如果他最後整個成本提高我們補貼本身就會跟著這個提高這個本來就會這樣做那現在這個本身要經過一個機制包括我們公路局的審查機制我想等他們審查機制出來我們再一一協助"},{"start":1657.754,"end":1685.661,"text":"我相信一定要審查沒有什麼事情是說了馬上可以做的那第一個速度要快第二個呢我想本席剛特別講到的桃園這些有非常多條我們的這個連外的通勤路線尤其是國道路線非常的多那這些比較特別的特殊服務的路線本身希望在這裡建請院長部長能夠針對我們這些路線讓他們能夠繼續安心的行駛下去讓我們桃園市的市民"},{"start":1686.101,"end":1702.833,"text":"在國道路線上面要往返臺北新北這種大共同生活圈的工作圈不至於沒有公車可以搭那也會失了TPAS的一個美意能不能給我們這個特殊服務的路線能夠提出一個補貼的方案"},{"start":1703.904,"end":1728.756,"text":"我們沒有辦法說特別,因為國道科興全國都有,但是我們是確保他通行不會停止。你如果沒有一個特殊服務路線的補貼方案,你的確保很難有幸福度。我意思說不要用特殊,比如說如果他的成本提高以後,我們就是審查通過。部長我想這個是我今天跟您提出來的。"},{"start":1729.676,"end":1730.236,"text":"最後我想那個院長"},{"start":1751.288,"end":1751.568,"text":"我們修一下這個表格"},{"start":1767.446,"end":1788.412,"text":"那這當中我們也看到因為不斷的去流標有一個很嚴重的狀況出來了我們看到在這個臨時軌的電子連鎖系統工程第一次招標的預算8億多決標的金額12億增加了3億多這還不是最嚴重的往下看我們在中壢車站的鐵路地下化已經決標了"},{"start":1789.332,"end":1805.891,"text":"他第一次開標124億,然而最近的這次開標絕標出去155億,這個相差31億。那更遑論桃園這個車站鐵路地下化,中路車站鐵路地下化都還沒有標出去,我們就個別增加了26億跟35億都還標不出去,這個問題非常嚴重。"},{"start":1810.496,"end":1811.257,"text":"謝謝萬委員美玲的質詢,也謝謝陳院長。"},{"start":1839.352,"end":1841.356,"text":"接下來我們請登記第19位黃委員秀"}]}},{"id":"149152","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149152","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e9681037018591e04579074c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a6f30caff4e49f2b215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"15:49:11 - 16:05:22","影片長度":"00:16:11","會議時間":"2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-27","duration":971,"end_time":"2024-02-27T16:05:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-27T15:49:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":382,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（15時49分）主席好！大家好！請陳院長、內政部林部長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢，麻煩請林部長，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：蔡委員，午安！我很久都不曾讓你質詢過了。"],["蔡委員其昌：我坐在上面8年，都已經快忘了站在這裡的感覺，今天讓我有機會再回味一下。","院長，我有注意到臺中市政府又打算賣臺中市的土地，我也看到今天內政部林部長針對臺中市賣土地特別發了一個公文提醒一下臺中市，剛剛我又看到臺中市政府發的新聞稿說它不想鳥你啦！簡單講，我用白話文講，就是它照常準備開始標售臺中市政府的這些抵費地。在我的看法上，其實市政府賣土地不是什麼新鮮的事情，我想林部長你也當過市長，你也賣過土地，但是我想市政府賣土地在這個階段裡面我們所面臨的挑戰有二個，第一個挑戰就是到底市政府的市長，也就是一個地方政府的首長，他願不願意把年輕人的問題當作他施政的首要目的。換言之，大家在談社會住宅，如果市政府所有的這些住宅用地都給它賣掉，毫不保留，連保留個幾趴來蓋社會住宅都不願意，那社會住宅只有靠中央來蓋，要達成我們所期待讓年輕人在居住正義這個議題上面可以得到緩解，可以得到一個家，可以得到一個窩，根本是遙遙無期。","針對臺中市政府我做了一個統計，臺中市縣市合併之後，歷任的市長，胡市長大概賣了234億的土地，林佳龍市長大概賣了75.5億的土地，盧秀燕市長大概賣了504億的土地，所以這個叫做賣土地的巨人。但是如果我們來看一下臺中市社宅的狀況，我們就可以很清楚地發現，從林佳龍市長開始規劃興建有18個地方、五千兩百多戶的社會住宅。林市長跟盧市長交接的時候，大概就是兩個市長在交接這個階段規劃興建的大概有2個地方一千兩百多戶。到盧市長自己任內5年的時間，他只規劃了4個地方一千六百多戶，那中央有10個地方大概六千四百多戶，所以我稱盧市長跟臺中市政府叫做蓋社宅的侏儒，也就是臺中市出了一個賣土地的巨人，而是蓋社宅的侏儒，所以臺中市的社宅，在我的看法上，這個目標是遙遙無期。","我也看到臺中市政府發了一個新聞稿說中央給臺中市的目標是1萬4,000戶的社會住宅，我想請問林部長，有沒有這個目標？這個目標的訂定是怎麼來的？"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告一下，我們過去訂的的確是1萬4,000，不過剛剛特別提到賣土地的問題，其實最近這三、四年左右，因為房價上漲，民眾其實是對這個很敏感。因為中央政府已經沒有在賣地了，所以我們非常希望地方政府在標售土地的時候要特別注意，因為這個會產生所謂的定錨效果。這一次我為什麼特別提？因為這一次它訂了200億的底價，其實已經比市場的行情高了許多，所以我們必須要提醒這個事情。"],["蔡委員其昌：林部長，定錨作用我待會再跟你討論，我們先把第一個問題解決。所以臺中市政府這樣賣土地，而不願意把市政府的土地拿來蓋社宅，5年時間只規劃了1,600戶的這個情形，他還誇口說他達成了目標，所以我想請中央是不是可以規劃一下？在我的看法上，臺中市最少5萬戶的社會住宅是絕對跑不掉，那院長可不可以立刻進行檢討，看看各縣市到底社宅需要幾戶？臺中市1萬4,000戶那個目標，其實那是水準太低、標準太低了！"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才就在跟林部長請教，就是說我們當時是因為蔡總統提出8年社會住宅20萬戶嘛。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，沒有錯。"],["陳院長建仁：直接興建的部分是這樣子，可是未來……那是8年欸，那是未來我們要為年輕人著想、為中低收入戶著想，我們的社會住宅我想最起碼要四、五倍以上才夠啦。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，所以那個是在蔡總統……"],["陳院長建仁：任期的目標。"],["蔡委員其昌：他訂定的目標全國好像是20萬戶的社會住宅……"],["陳院長建仁：8加12。"],["蔡委員其昌：8加12嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：8萬戶是自建嘛……"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["陳院長建仁：然後12萬戶是包租代管。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以接下來我們在蔡總統這個目標之外，應該要有新的目標，所以臺中市政府並沒有把這樣的目標放進去，而只是現在還在談過去那個8年的目標嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以我希望內政部要儘速將未來到底要目標戶多少，像臺中市我認為最少要5萬戶，我認為這個目標是一定要去追、一定要去達成的。","第二個目標就是剛剛部長所講的，臺中市政府、尤其是政府，它的土地的標售對臺中市的地價有定錨的作用，這一次它的底價比周邊所有的土地交易價格大概貴了兩成，所以換言之，我們可預期臺中市政府的土地除非流標，否則的話，如果標出去，換言之，周邊的地主未來賣土地只要跟著政府賣就好了，就漲兩成，漲兩成啦！"],["林部長右昌：至少。"],["蔡委員其昌：最少嘛，最少就漲兩成。"],["林部長右昌：標的時候可能還會有議價。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我假設算最低標準，用它的底價得標好了，它最少就是告訴大家說，臺中市的土地應該要再漲，要繼續上漲，要讓年輕人跟在臺中市更買不起房子，因為所有的建商很簡單，建商是加工業，他買了土地、做了設計、做了興建，然後最後把它賣掉。所以當土地成本大幅上揚的時候，勢必未來的房價在臺中市又要繼續飆漲，又讓更多的年輕人在臺中市買不起房子，這個其實是很清楚。而定錨作用如果是一般私有土地的業者，政府當然我們只能透過相關的政策跟法規來規範，但最可惡的是政府帶頭做這個事情，這個才是讓人寒心，才會讓人覺得難道我們的臺中市政府、難道盧市長完全沒有把年輕人的想法、年輕人的痛苦、年輕人的期待放在心上嗎？","所以林部長，今天你發了這個提醒文給盧市長，我基本上是肯定的，但是我也知道你發這文，其實我也覺得沒什麼用，我想他民調很高、政治聲望很高，接下來可能是總統的候選人，所以區區一個內政部的部長對他來講是小兒科。雖然我知道你是很善意提醒，我們都希望政府非常用心，中央政府已經非常用心在蓋社宅、非常用心在希望土地不要再飆漲了，所以你做內政部長，做這個工作是必要的，但是我也知道沒有什麼用。","但是我在這裡要提醒內政部，對於居住正義的問題，一方面要跟所有的社會大眾、特別年輕人說清楚，到底誰在蓋社宅？誰在阻擾蓋社宅？或者誰在睡覺不蓋社宅？或者誰裝睡不蓋社宅？我覺得內政部有義務要讓國人同胞、特別讓年輕人知道得很清楚。所以內政部應該要定期公布我們對於社宅推動這個政策到底多久我們會供給多少量、供給的位置到底在哪裡、這是中央蓋的還是地方政府蓋的。我認為我們在社宅政策上面，內政部一定要有標準，這個標準甚至是你手上有的資源跟地方政府未來的配合，都要把這個考核放到裡面去，我覺得這個才是讓社宅這個政策可以推動。","不要忘記，這一次很多的年輕朋友他的選票並不支持民進黨，因為他認為民進黨對於年輕朋友的這些呼聲、他們的期待並沒有做到回應的狀況，所以這一次的這個事件，正是讓大家把那個造妖鏡拿出來，到底中央政府對社宅的態度是什麼？到底每一個地方政府無論它是什麼政黨，它對於社會住宅的態度是什麼？誰真正地在呼應年輕人的期待？我覺得這件事情內政部一定要去做到，否則的話，稀哩呼嚕地大家呼攏一通，我們的市長還說中央都沒蓋半棟，最後發現自己資料錯誤還出來道歉，所以這個就是長期內政部或者中央被抹黑，就是從這個地方來！所以我希望內政部要加油，我們的社宅政策還要再加把勁，要比蔡總統過去8年的時間要蓋得更多，要更加積極回應年輕人的需要，這個是我對你的期待。"],["林部長右昌：是，謝謝委員，我想賴總統他也有訂了新的一個目標，我們會全力來達成。第二個、委員剛剛也特別提到，即便是地方政府蓋的社宅，其實中央政府不管是對土地、對興建的成本，我們都有補助。"],["蔡委員其昌：補助沒有錯，好。"],["林部長右昌：好，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：接下來院長，我想毒辣椒粉的事件，我今天早上也看到你發言了，我覺得很清楚嘛！是我們積極在邊境檢查所檢測出來的，我還是覺得我們在手段上面可能要更積極一些，也就是說我們在管理上應該要採取差別化管理，就是我們現在，譬如說光去年來自中國的辣椒粉不合格件數越來越多，去年16件，今年不到2個月就有7件，所以換言之我們不是講中國，是剛好這個事情是中國，特別在食安上面，就是對食品的管理上面，我們一定要差別，就是績優生不要耗費太多的公務人力在處理，但是對於那些成績不好、那些劣等生，常常作怪、常常讓我們臺灣陷入食安的困難、困擾的這些國家或者這一種產品，我們應該要差別地加強檢驗，甚至最嚴重就像我們在檢查現在你的措施嘛，逐批檢驗，這個就是最嚴格的標準。"],["陳院長建仁：而且我們最近還讓21家有不合格的產品的大陸廠商，我們暫停它的入口。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以就是差別管理的手段一定要出來，因為我們不可能什麼東西都逐批檢驗，這個是科學，這個也是實務的問題，所以我們一定要有辦法把差別的管理把它做出來，同時不好的我們就要最嚴厲的手段，那好的相對就可以鼓勵，在相關的行政措施上面給予鼓勵，這個是我大概一點小小的建議。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：最後我想謝謝院長、謝謝我們的行政團隊對於臺中市的幾個重大交通建設，在2月份之前……"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝委員啦！委員實在是……"],["蔡委員其昌：我很感謝啦！"],["陳院長建仁：給我們很多的指導。"],["蔡委員其昌：我今天特別感謝是因為以前在上面都沒辦法感謝你，因為你知道我這幾年來盯得非常緊。"],["陳院長建仁：是，確實。"],["蔡委員其昌：王部長不知道去我那裡多少次了，歷任部長都到我那個地方，常常幾乎我們都在追這些案子，我在上面沒有機會公開地謝謝，所以今天有機會站在這裡我就要特別表示感謝。但是我們感謝歸感謝，後面還是……它並還不是完工啦！譬如說我們臺中市的捷運藍線，在我的建議底下，我們中央先給它核定，不要讓臺中市政府再繼續抹黑中央，所以中央先核定，地方再對計畫進行修正，我想請問部長，地方政府的修正有沒有時程？什麼時候可以完成捷運藍線的修正？因為不完成修正還是動工不了嘛！"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，主要在過去有很多的問題，最後的問題是在沙鹿站，就是三個包括鐵路、藍線還有平面沙鹿大橋的問題，這個部分初步的方向，委員有特別說這部分要趕快來進行，所以我們已經討論一個成果，那個成果就是已經叫它放到藍線還有未來山海線的海線裡面……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，沒關係，我其實知道內容，但我的意思是說時間，以前它都在罵中央卡地方的建設，現在中央核定了，我們在等地方什麼時候完成修正，部長。"],["王部長國材：我們是希望越快越好，那如果這個修正……"],["蔡委員其昌：每3個月跟本席報告一次可不可以？"],["王部長國材：好，OK。"],["蔡委員其昌：報告臺中市政府到底什麼時候完成修正，因為捷運藍線大家等著要動啊，等著要趕快完工啊！那它一定要報交通部對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以你每3個月告訴我臺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":518.82,"end":544.013,"text":"所以他不會區區一個內政部的部長對他來講是小兒科啦雖然我知道你是很善意提醒我們都希望政府非常用心中央政府已經非常用心在蓋社宅非常用心在希望土地不要再飆漲了所以你做內政部長你做這個工作是必要的但是我也知道沒有什麼用但是我在這裡要提醒內政部對於居住正義的問題"},{"start":545.592,"end":563.953,"text":"一方面要跟所有的社會大眾特別年輕人說清楚到底誰在蓋社宅誰在主老蓋社宅或者誰在睡覺不蓋社宅或者誰裝睡不蓋社宅我覺得內政部有義務要讓國人同胞特別讓年輕人知道的很清楚"},{"start":564.741,"end":591.836,"text":"所以內政部應該要定期公布我們對於涉宅推動這個政策到底多久我們會供給多少量供給的位置到底在哪裡這是中央蓋的還是地方政府蓋的我認為我們在涉宅政策上面內政部一定要有標準這個標準甚至是你手上有的資源跟地方政府未來的配合都要把這個考核放到裡面去"},{"start":593.035,"end":608.477,"text":"我覺得這個才是讓涉宰這個政策可以推動不要忘記這一次的很多的年輕朋友他的選票並不支持民進黨因為他認為民進黨對年輕朋友的這些呼聲他們的期待並沒有做到回應的狀況"},{"start":609.707,"end":637.228,"text":"所以這一次的這個事件正是讓大家把那個照妖鏡拿出來到底中央政府對社宅的態度是什麼到底每一個地方政府無論它是什麼政黨它對於社會住宅的態度是什麼誰真正的在呼應年輕人的期待我覺得這件事情內政部一定要去做到否則的話稀哩呼嚕的大家呼嚨一通我們的市長還說中央都沒蓋半棟最後發現自己資料錯誤還出來道歉"},{"start":638.462,"end":663.142,"text":"所以這個就是長期內政部或者中央被抹黑就是從這個地方來所以我希望內政部要加油我們的社宅政策我們還要再加把勁要比蔡總統過去8年的時間要蓋得更多要更加積極回應年輕人的需要這個是我對你的期待是謝謝委員我想那個賴總統他也有定了新的一個目標我們會全力來達成"},{"start":664.303,"end":686.639,"text":"第二個委員剛剛也特別提到即便是地方政府蓋的社宅其實中央政府不管是對土地對興建的成本我們都有補助接下來院長我想那個辣椒粉毒辣椒粉的事件我今天早上也看到你發言了我覺得很清楚是我們積極在邊境檢查所以所檢測出來的"},{"start":688.172,"end":706.705,"text":"我還是覺得說我們在手段上面可能要更積極一些也就是說我們在管理上應該要採取差別化管理我們現在譬如說光去年來自中國的辣椒粉不合格件數越來越多去年16件今年不到兩個月就有7件"},{"start":707.365,"end":732.268,"text":"所以換言之我們不是講中國是剛好這個事情是中國那特別在食安上面就是對食品的管理上面我們一定要差別就是雞優生啊不要耗費太多的公務人力在處理但是對於那些成績不好那些劣等生常常這個作怪常常讓我們台灣陷入食安的這個困難困擾的這個這些國家或者"},{"start":733.127,"end":761.648,"text":"這一種產品我們應該要差別的加強檢驗甚至最嚴重就像我們在檢查現在你的措施逐批檢驗這個就是最嚴格的標準而且我們最近還讓21家有不合格的產品的大陸的廠商我們暫停他的入口所以這個就是差別管理的手段一定要出來因為我們不可能什麼東西都逐批檢驗"},{"start":762.846,"end":789.268,"text":"這個是科學這個也是實務的問題所以我們一定要有辦法把那個差別的管理把它做出來同時不好的我們就要最嚴厲的手段那好的相對就可以鼓勵在相關的這個行政措施上面可以鼓勵這個是我大概一點小小的建議謝謝那最後我想這個謝謝院長謝謝我們的行政團隊對於台中市的重大幾個重大的交通建設在這個"},{"start":793.206,"end":813.051,"text":"謝謝委員這委員實在是給我們很多的指導我今天特別感謝是因為以前在上面都沒辦法感謝你因為你知道我這幾年來盯得非常緊王部長不知道去我那裡多少次了歷任部長都到我那個地方常常幾乎我們都在追這些案子"},{"start":813.732,"end":837.246,"text":"我在上面沒有機會公開的謝謝,所以今天有機會站在這裡,我就要特別表示感謝。但是我們感謝歸感謝,後面他還不是完工。例如說我們台中市捷運南線,在我的建議底下,我們中央先給他核定,不要讓台中市政府再繼續抹黑中央。所以中央先核定,地方再對計畫進行修正。我想請問部長,"},{"start":838.649,"end":863.061,"text":"地方政府的修正有沒有時程?什麼時候可以完成捷運南線的修正?因為不完成修正還是動工不了嗎?主要在過去有很多的問題最後的問題是在沙路站就是三個包括鐵路、南線還有平面沙路大橋的問題這個部分初步的方向委員有特別說這部分要趕快來進行"},{"start":864.501,"end":891.31,"text":"所以我們已經討論一個成果那個成果就是已經叫他放到藍線還有未來的山海線的海線的對沒關係我其實知道內容但我的意思是說時間啊以前他都在罵中央卡地方的建設現在中央核定了我們在等地方什麼時候完成修正我們是希望越快越好那如果這個修正每三個月跟本席報告一次可不可以"},{"start":892.537,"end":916.085,"text":"報告臺中市政府到底什麼時候完成修正因為捷運南線大家等著要動啊等著要趕快完工啊那他一定要報交通部對不對對所以你每三個月告訴我臺中市的進度我就定期公布看臺中市要拖到什麼時候才可以把捷運南線的這個修正計畫把它做好那其實不只只有殺戮嘛其實還有"},{"start":917.466,"end":938.751,"text":"我一直在主張的我們的第一站就是港務公司大樓跟捷運站的共同開發共同規劃甚至共購這個也是修正計畫還有地方政府自己核定到底要在平頂站或正陰站這個是地方政府核定這不是你交通部同意的因為場站的選址是地方的事情"},{"start":968.232,"end":968.975,"text":"謝謝蔡委員其昌質詢。謝謝陳院長。"}]}},{"id":"149151","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149151","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e9681049e55fb71d765ef04c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a6b6d5a35e119f76195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"15:17:56 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15:49:02","影片長度":"00:31:06","會議時間":"2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-27","duration":1866,"end_time":"2024-02-27T15:49:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-27T15:17:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":239,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（15時17分）謝謝主席。我要請行政院陳院長。"],["主席：請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：林委員午安，恭喜你當選。"],["林委員國成：院長，其實本席第一次跟你質詢，所以我一定要把我的個性讓你瞭解一下。"],["陳院長建仁：好，請。"],["林委員國成：因為本席過去在從政質詢的時候，我最在乎的就是不喜歡答非所問，但是請你放心，我一定用理性跟務實的態度來問政，所以請院長特別放心。"],["陳院長建仁：我也會理性務實，我也會。"],["林委員國成：另外，看到報紙說院長要連任嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：沒這回事。"],["林委員國成：首先，真的在我本身來講，對於你在科學家、在學者之間，我確實對於你學者的風範，我是非常尊重。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["林委員國成：但是我不希望你當了官員以後，就會答非所問，這一點我期許……"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有答非所問，我不會。"],["林委員國成：我期許院長能夠針對問題來答問題，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我針對問題來回答。"],["林委員國成：院長，我冒昧請教你一個問題，我今天要跟你談的是勞保年金破產的問題，這個問題當然看起來對立的機會不會很大，但是探討的價值，絕對是一定要探討的。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["林委員國成：所以院長，我冒昧請教你，到底我們所有勞工投保的人數為何？現在在臺灣被保險人有多少？"],["陳院長建仁：1,050。"],["許部長銘春：1,050萬。"],["陳院長建仁：對啦，1,050萬。"],["林委員國成：另外一點，勞工有兩種，請問院長，你知道是哪兩種嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：一個就是一般的勞工，一個就是職業勞工。"],["林委員國成：是這兩種。勞保局……我要請教勞保的保險條例，到底它是社會保險或者商業保險？我必須要先釐清以後才有辦法再問下去。"],["陳院長建仁：社會保險。"],["林委員國成：好。院長，其實看起來你是學者專家出身，但是對於勞工的問題，基本上你還是瞭解得非常多，所以這一點，我要代表勞工特別謝謝你。"],["陳院長建仁：因為勞保……"],["林委員國成：你瞭解勞工。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我在當副總統的時候，勞保年金改革也是其中的一個重點。"],["林委員國成：好，但是現在勞工的心聲，我必須要跟院長投訴。你知道一天到晚……勞工繳錢你們說要破產，我們將心比心，你身為勞工的心情，你會感覺……有什麼看法？"],["陳院長建仁：我想，如果大家都一直在傳會破產，當然勞工就會很恐慌、很擔心，但是我們一再地跟所有的勞工講，勞保是國家辦的社會保險，對勞工有最好的保障，政府會負最後的給付責任，所以勞工放心，但是並不表示我們講這樣的話，財務就會健全。財務之所以會不健全，最主要的就是當時勞保法律通過的時候，我們把給付率定得太高。委員，你是專家，我不敢班門弄斧。因為它定得太高，當時那個法通過的時候，8年就破產了，所以我們也要讓勞工知道，當時定的這個勞保的法律並不是健全的。"],["林委員國成：院長你講這些，原則性我是同意，但是解決問題一定要瞭解它真正的問題在哪裡。其實，我要問院長一句話，到底勞保要破產是政府的事，或者勞工的事？"],["陳院長建仁：政府要破產，我想這個制度當然是很重要，當時我們在做勞保年金改革規劃的時候，第一個當然就是採計的年數，第二個就是給付率是多少，第三個就是費率是多少。把這些東西都整體考量才能夠做可以永續的、合理的、健全的勞保制度。當然這裡面有一個很重要的部分，既然對於低收入的這些勞工，我們要給他很好的樓地板的保護，政府也一定要有政府補貼的經費進來，所以現在大概有這四項：政府的挹注、撥補，然後採計的年數，然後是費率跟給付率嘛！這四項一定要連動啦！"],["林委員國成：院長，你講這些原則性都是對的啦！"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["林委員國成：但是真正的原因要把它找出來。"],["陳院長建仁：委員……"],["林委員國成：所以我要從頭把歷史……其實這個歷史一定要瞭解才有辦法去解決問題。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["林委員國成：我在乎的是身為一個勞工，我規規矩矩繳了保費，但是政府動不動就說它要破產，這對勞工的心裡來說是非常沉重的。院長，你聽我說完，實際上來講，政府動不動去做這些事，基本上我真的要跟院長建議，勞保破產的問題不是勞工的責任，是政府的責任。所以……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我可以講一句話嗎？"],["林委員國成：來來來，院長……"],["陳院長建仁：我可以講一下嗎？"],["林委員國成：不是，我先跟你報告……"],["陳院長建仁：我跟委員報告一下，政府從來都沒有說過勞保會破產。"],["林委員國成：有啦！"],["陳院長建仁：政府只有說一定會負最後的給付責任。破產之說，是因為外界看到我們的收入與支出不平衡，於是就有很多媒體寫出heading，下標說會破產，我們從來沒有說會破產。"],["林委員國成：好啦！院長……"],["陳院長建仁：我跟你說實在話就是這樣。"],["林委員國成：是、是，我跟你說，有一些事情要讓你瞭解……"],["陳院長建仁：好，多謝……"],["林委員國成：你才能瞭解真正的問題……"],["陳院長建仁：好，我來聆聽。"],["林委員國成：我為什麼會堅持政府經營不善不能把責任全部推給勞工……"],["陳院長建仁：我同意。"],["林委員國成：這一點我想院長你同意吧！"],["陳院長建仁：我同意。"],["林委員國成：同意喔！我們現在就是要先瞭解一下啦！我要跟院長報告，部長，你也做參考，其實這些真正的問題從來都沒有揭發出來，立法院將近30年，從來沒有勞工身分的人站上質詢臺，所以我必須要讓院長及部長瞭解……"],["陳院長建仁：好，我聆聽你的高見。"],["林委員國成：我想這個歷史大家很清楚，第一個，49年成立，到57年修正，到59年改名為臺閩地區，最重要的在這裡，最重要的在哪裡？85年（1996年）的時候我們臺灣省政府承辦這些勞保，但是這些勞保到最後是我們中央來承接，在這裡。院長，我要跟你請教一下，還有部長，請問你們，我們當初承接的時候到底虧損有多少？"],["陳院長建仁：我不太清楚，這是1996年……"],["林委員國成：部長，你知道嗎？部長，承接的時候。本來是臺灣省政府管轄的臺閩地區勞保局，最後是我們中央勞委會承接這個業務，所以改屬我們中央政府，也就是我們勞動部的前身──勞委會，所以我請問85年開始承接起來的時候虧損有多少？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，是不是有虧損或者虧損多少，這部分我還要進一步釐清。"],["林委員國成：所以我坦白講，剛剛我問過院長，到底我們是社會保險或者商業保險？其實院長講得很清楚，勞保本來就是社會保險……"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["林委員國成：其實那個時候凍省之外，把臺閩地區勞保局所有的經費移到中央來的時候是沒有精算的，到底虧損有多少？我告訴院長，那個時候的勞保費率只有6.5%，其實從84年把健保醫療的部分撥到中央政府健保局以後是沒有什麼虧錢的，真正虧錢虧在哪邊？是在臺閩地區那個6.5%，它醫療給付各項保障通通有，但是現在是12%，加上健保的5.71%，快20%耶！所以勞工繳錢是沒有減少的，也就是勞工繳的多，領的少，以前是繳的少，領的多，所以為什麼勞工現在都默默不說話？在心裡面生悶氣，政府又動不動就說勞保要倒掉。拜託！院長，我要跟你報告，我說實在的，今天勞保真的是勞工的養老本及棺材本，所以不要動不動就這樣！院長，你在做事情，相較過去的院長，跟你在對白、在質詢的時候，確實你在整個問題的瞭解度是夠的，所以我今天跟行家講話，我特別說，真正的、所有問題就是你們在承接時的大洞，多少錢的虧損你們根本不知道嘛！你們只承接出來，但是你不曉得勞保真正的黑洞就在這個部分，也就是49年到84年那個時候的大黑洞，並非84年以後把健保分出去的時候，那個時候勞保接下來是沒有什麼虧損的，所以你不能最後在85年以後用商業保險的清算方式去做計算，這個對勞工是不公平的。院長，我跟你報告之後，你再表達你的意見。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["林委員國成：第二個，當初拿了勞保基金去買股票，那不用我跟你說，部長，你好好去查一下，政策護盤，虧錢是勞工的事嗎？是你政府要負責耶！結果現在不是，把所有責任推給勞工，這樣不公平啦！"],["陳院長建仁：沒人推給勞工啦！沒有啦！"],["林委員國成：院長，你要聽我的心聲，代替1,050萬的勞工。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我認真聆聽。"],["林委員國成：這個聲音要出來嘛！你才去做決定。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["林委員國成：不是說給你上課，不是，絕對不是。"],["陳院長建仁：沒關係，上課我也認真聽。"],["林委員國成：這是勞工多年來的心聲，透過今天有這個機會，我要替一千多萬的勞工把心聲講出來。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["林委員國成：還有一點，勞保基金過去確實在整個繳的多、領的少的情況之下，這個基金是隨便亂用的，我要跟院長投訴，甚至於拿勞保基金去做建設基金，為什麼？像台電當初沒有錢做建設的時候，南電北送，所有的電塔是拿勞保基金去做，做建設無所謂，最不能原諒的就是什麼？現在我舉兩個例子，第一，台開，這個案子部長回去查看看，向勞保基金借了上百億，到去年才還掉，拜託，你看看勞保基金可以這樣用嗎？所以院長，我要跟你報告，為什麼會說這是政府的責任？也就是財政紀律監督不夠周全，產生今天勞保虧損連連，說實在的，政府要負起責任。所以我要向院長報告，就是剛才我跟你投訴的這些，第一個，赤字你們沒有精算；第二個，勞保基金的財政紀律也不健全，說護盤就護盤，結果輸了都是勞工的事……"],["許部長銘春：沒有護盤。"],["林委員國成：我特別跟院長報告，因為這些都是我有參與的，參與的時候，我覺得這樣是不好，所以今天勞保的虧損絕對不是84年健保撥出去，醫療撥出去以後，勞保是沒有什麼虧損的。但是不管怎麼樣，我覺得不管是現在的政府或前政府，當然你們要概括承受，我們知道，可是我很不服氣的就是，明明是政府經營不善、管理不得當，為什麼所有責任要勞工來扛呢？這點是對勞工不公平，院長，我說這些都有憑有據，院長，我當然希望你繼續連任，你好好督促勞動部，好好把這個事情查清楚，查個水落石出，到底是勞工的問題還是政府的問題，我的認知是政府要負責任，但是今天政府經營不善，不能把所有責任怪到勞工身上，所以院長，我剛才跟你說這些事情，我不曉得你對這些有什麼看法。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝委員，你給我上了一課，讓我知道勞工保險成立的沿革，還有對於勞保黑洞你認為的看法。我在這裡做三點的說明，第一點，政府從來沒有認為勞保的問題是要勞工來負責，而政府都沒有責任，這個我完全不同意，因為實際上我剛才講過，政府會負最後給付的責任。第二個，你剛才說到1996年那個時候沒有黑洞，但是你也提到沒有精算，如果沒有精算，實際上那一些人都在還年輕的時候加入保險，到了1996年他領的錢少，當然他還夠，因為大部分的人都還在工作，可是如果你精算下來，也許到1996年的時候，推算到這一些還在工作的人以後退休要領勞保的時候，搞不好那個時候就已經是黑洞了，這是第二個我的想法。第三個，我也完全同意你的意見，就是勞保基金應該要有很好的投資，不能夠有隨意的借貸。但是就我個人所知，我們並沒有隨便去做政策的護航，我們有一個勞保基金的管理委員會在進行，這個部分更詳細的情況，可能部長比較清楚……"],["林委員國成：院長，我打岔一下，我不是說你現在，我現在是把以前的歷史……"],["陳院長建仁：是以前哦？這樣我瞭解。所以你說到要讓勞工負責，我覺得不應該讓勞工負責，這我完全同意，政府應該要做事。"],["林委員國成：院長，我坦白跟你講，我現在指責的並非是現在在執政的，從84年以後，當然國、民兩黨都有在執政，現在不是你的責任問題，而是要把問題查清楚，第一，如果今天勞工是繳費不足，當然大家來想辦法嘛！但事實上不是這樣，因為現在勞工是一頭牛扒兩層皮，因為健保他也要繳，勞保他也要繳，然而事實上真正虧損的部分是84年以前的，那時候醫療跟勞保統統都是一張單子，當然這個部分確實是虧損，那個時候我問你有沒有精算？你們也沒有啊！我不曉得你們這樣接起來，那個是大洞，那個時候的政府當然要負責任，我沒有講現在的政府，對於現在的政府，我坦白講，你要我讚賞，我可以讚賞，第一，做的最好的是陳菊院長，那個時候吃勞工的東西就是占勞工便宜的錢，最後他在任內全部都退還，舉例，第一，15年以下不能請領退休給付，結果他就老了、他就走了，最後陳菊發回。第二，許銘春部長，他是公道的，為什麼？在前兩年疫情最嚴重的時候，他去爭取無一定雇主的職業勞工可以紓困這些，所以我沒有怪你，但是我們要把問題釐清楚，今天不是勞工的問題，是政府的問題，是當初你們沒有精算，而現在產生這些虧損，把所有責任推給勞工，一定要多繳保費、要少領、要改革，這些東西對勞工是不公平的。院長，我向你投訴的是這個問題。"],["陳院長建仁：我有聽進去。"],["林委員國成：所以你剛才有講過，當然，我還是肯定你們陸陸續續撥了兩千多億進來，這個是確確實實你們都有在做的，這個我們要高度肯定，才有辦法挹注現在基本的水平。另外……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我再補充一句，其實勞保未來給付的額度之所以會大，另外一個很重要的就是從民國85年開始，我們的平均壽命在這30年來增加得很厲害，相信你很清楚，你是專家嘛！"],["林委員國成：院長，這個可以來研究。"],["陳院長建仁：對嘛！人口老化，給付的……"],["林委員國成：正常的增加、負減，都可以大家來談，這勞工不是一成不變，如果是他們的責任，他們該繳的就繳，但是一味的把全部責任都歸在勞工上面……"],["陳院長建仁：不合理。"],["林委員國成：這個我不贊同。"],["陳院長建仁：我也不贊同。"],["林委員國成：所以院長，我跟你說，你剛剛有說過撥補要繼續，另外一個我還是比較在乎的，跟院長報告，你講的就是要入法啦！確定給付，讓勞工放心，院長贊成這一點嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我贊成啊！"],["林委員國成：入法這個部分，本席也會為了這個事，把它修改、把它入法，這樣的話，勞工的問題不會人心惶惶，不會我現在繳錢，然後改天你跟我說要倒，這樣誰願意去繳錢？所以這個部分我還是希望，院長你是一個我很尊重的學者，我不希望就這樣講一講，我希望你連任……"],["陳院長建仁：不要啦！"],["林委員國成：連任以後才有辦法去解決這個問題。因為我今天把所有歷史都已經跟院長報告了，所以這個部分我要拜託你責成部長，特別把它查清楚該是誰的責任、把它釐清楚，不要一天到晚怪1,100萬的勞工繳不夠，這對勞工不公平，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["林委員國成：現在要再來跟你談最簡單的一個問題──消防員組工會。主席，拜託內政部長上來一下，時間要暫停吧？"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["林委員國成：院長，這個當然是燙手山芋，但是我們什麼東西都不要檢討。為什麼消防員要組工會？其實組工會很簡單，真的是很簡單！這十年來死了43個消防員，是你們沒有在訓練或者問題出在哪邊？坦白跟你講，組工會最大的目的就是結社權，你們同意組協會，有給他結社權了嘛！另外一個就是協商權，你們也給了，但給的是一半，協商在工會法裡面規定有罰則，協會裡面那些協商沒有罰則，一點約束力都沒有。院長，我跟你說，這就是做一半，沒用！最主要是罷工權，說實在，本席也反對消防人員罷工，因為養兵千日用在一時，所以罷工權當然也不能適用。但是我建議院長重新再盤點，讓各單位好好去研究一下，讓他組工會，不要把他當作洪水猛獸，不用這麼緊張。教師工會也沒有罷工權，可是他們就做得很好，所以可以比照教師工會，讓這些消防員去組工會，院長針對這個問題不必覺得可怕。你的看法怎麼樣？"],["陳院長建仁：因為這裡面有一個很重要的是，消防員本身是公務員，教師不是每一個都是公務員。第二個就是公務員現在也有你剛剛說過的可以組協會，而協會裡面可以有多少的諮商權等等，可以再來修法。我們在上一個會期已經提出一個法案，但是法案因為屆期不續審，我們會再送來大院聽取委員的意見，朝野一起來修，把它修得更好。至於工會比較好，還是協會比較好，其實也要來聽消防人員、消防弟兄的心聲。"],["林委員國成：沒有，他們已經這樣……"],["陳院長建仁：因為……"],["林委員國成：院長，我跟你報告，他們認為是組工會……"],["陳院長建仁：那是一部分的人而已。"],["林委員國成：他們認為組工會，但是我跟你說不要怕！"],["陳院長建仁：我們會來商量。"],["林委員國成：因為他們需要的是職業安全法。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["林委員國成：只要組工會，他就適用職業安全法。部長，但是我聽說內政部都不同意。"],["林部長右昌：我跟委員報告一下。基本上，你談的這是兩件事情，第一個是……"],["林委員國成：怎麼會是兩件事呢？"],["林部長右昌：這是兩件事情，完全兩件。第一個是消防人員依照憲法的規定，國家的公務員必須經過國家考試，消防員的身分是公務人員，但……"],["林委員國成：公務人員，所以部長……"],["林部長右昌：但老師並不是。"],["林委員國成：部長，公務人員兼具勞工身分的一大堆啦！你不要跟我講這個。"],["林部長右昌：沒有！這是兩件事情。"],["林委員國成：怎麼會是兩件事情呢？部長，我不跟你爭辯這個。"],["林部長右昌：勞工……"],["林委員國成：我時間有限。公務人員兼具勞工身分的一大堆，只是法令要不要解套而已！所以我坦白跟你說，部長，沒錯，你從基層上來，但針對這點，我就覺得你在基層都是白待的，說實在的，組工會沒有那麼可怕，但是我同意警消要限制罷工權，但這還有其他的，主要是要入職業安全法嘛！因為現在那個是專業訓練，而職業安全法是有罰則的，是有法令的，所以他們現在缺乏的是職業安全法對他們的保障，你要放在協會裡面，根本就不能放嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有啦！職業安全法的部分，就是政府可以把消防人員職業安全的部分規定在消防法裡面，這也是另外一個作法，我們本來就有想在消防法裡修有關他們的職業安全部分，當然，委員跟我們有不同的見解，你說要有工會才能適用職業安全法，但我們是要在規定裡加進去他們職業安全的保障，這是我們的想法。"],["林委員國成：好啦！院長，原則性我同意啦！但是我坦白跟你講，外行的話我是不愛聽啦！我坦白跟你講，職業安全法限定公務人員兼具勞工身分是可以適用，主要是你用那個協會，那個協會就是社會團體，我跟你說，那個不是專法啦，所以我跟你說，你如果要講這個……"],["陳院長建仁：我們用消防法。"],["林委員國成：對啦！如果你們要講這個，沒有關係，你們既然有這樣做，我希望部長跟勞動部好好商量一下，這個問題我會繼續追，我會繼續追，好不好？","接著請法務部。"],["主席：請法務部部長備詢。"],["林委員國成：還有唐鳳唐部長。"],["陳院長建仁：數位部。"],["主席：請數位部部長備詢。"],["林委員國成：院長，今天我們院裡面有一個打詐的公聽會，現在打詐，說實在的，因為很多同仁都有很多意見，現在有3萬多件，詐騙金額八十幾億元，說實在，這是貽笑國際啦！貽笑國際！"],["陳院長建仁：不會啦！我說不會的原因是，現在有一個組織、國際組織，他們有統計全世界的詐騙，如果說詐騙最嚴重的國家，其實就是紐西蘭、新加坡、美國這些國家，我們臺灣是有嚴重，我完全承認，但不是說貽笑國際，我覺得這樣的說法我不太能接受，我是覺得這是一個國際性的問題，我們一定要來解決，這個我同意。"],["林委員國成：來，唐部長，你對這個有什麼看法？簡單就好了。"],["唐部長鳳：是，我們覺得源頭防制是特別重要，包含我們透過電子簽章法，很快會送到貴院，儘可能的讓這種假冒帳號或者假冒名人的狀況可以有所緩解。"],["林委員國成：好，那個蔡部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：我們檢察官、警察跟調查局的人員，大家都很認真在打拚、在打詐。"],["林委員國成：不是啦！你看要怎麼做啦！"],["蔡部長清祥：我們會再結合大家共同想辦法來努力。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，因為時間關係，我會請同仁把我們打詐的作法以書面向委員簡單報告。"],["林委員國成：好啦！謝謝院長！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員國成的質詢，謝謝陳院長的答詢，謝謝。","接下來請登記第17號蔡委員其昌質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳秉叡","丁學忠","黃珊珊","林岱樺","陳雪生","張啓楷","徐富癸","謝衣鳯","林國成","蔡其昌","萬美玲","黃秀芳","呂玉玲"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2024-02-27"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00011","1130401_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130401_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.97221875,"end":25.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.55409375,"end":28.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.60034375,"end":30.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.91221875,"end":32.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.611593750000004,"end":40.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.42534375,"end":45.525968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.150343750000005,"end":49.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.59284375,"end":50.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.62221875,"end":51.330968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.533468750000004,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洞根本多少多少錢的虧損你們根本不知道嘛你們只承接出來"},{"start":701.648,"end":725.248,"text":"曾接出來但是你不曉得真正勞保的黑洞就在這個部分也就是49年到84年那個時候的大黑洞並非84年以後健保把它分出去的時候那個時候勞保接下來是沒有什麼虧損的"},{"start":726.67,"end":755.832,"text":"所以你不能最後85年以後用商業保險的計算清算方式去做計算那這個是對勞工是不公平的還有一條我現在在跟你報告之後你才表達一個意見我跟你講你看喔第二個當初拿了勞保基金去買股票那不用我跟你講不對你好好去查一下"},{"start":757.199,"end":769.75,"text":"好好去查一下,政策復盤,虧錢是勞工的事嗎?是你政府要負責欸,結果現在不是把所有責任推給勞工,這樣不公平啦。沒有人推給勞工啦。"},{"start":773.894,"end":774.234,"text":"所以,第二"},{"start":803.303,"end":824.262,"text":"還有一點老保基金過去確實在整個繳得多領得少的情況之下這個基金是隨便亂用甚至於我要跟院長投訴甚至於拿老保基金去做建設基金"},{"start":826.079,"end":845.835,"text":"為什麼像臺電當初沒有錢做建設的時候南電北送所有那個電塔是拿勞保基金去做這個那做建設無所謂最不能原諒的就是什麼現在我舉兩個例子一、臺開"},{"start":849.446,"end":854.915,"text":"這個案子沒中你回去查看看向勞保基金借了上百億請問"},{"start":857.537,"end":881.309,"text":"到去年才還掉欸拜託欸你看看勞保基金可以這樣用嗎?所以為什麼?一定 我要跟你報告為什麼會說這是政府的責任也就是財政紀律啊不夠監督周前產生今天勞保的虧損連連說實在的政府要負起責任"},{"start":881.869,"end":884.251,"text":"我特別跟院長報告因為這些都是我是有參與的"},{"start":909.761,"end":924.139,"text":"那參議的時候我覺得這樣是不好所以今天勞保的虧損絕對不是84年健保撥出去醫療撥出去了以後勞保是沒有什麼虧損的"},{"start":926.035,"end":947.076,"text":"但是我不管怎麼樣我覺得這是不管是現在的政府或前政府當然你們要概括承受我們知道可是我很不服氣的就是為什麼明明是政府經營不善管理不得當那為什麼把所有責任"},{"start":948.73,"end":972.396,"text":"這個要勞工來扛勒,所以這一點是對勞工不公平。所以議長,我講這些都有憑有據喔。我希望院長,我當然希望你繼續連任。你好好督促勞動部,好好把這個事情查清楚。這水落石出嘛。到底是勞工的問題還是政府的問題。我的認知"},{"start":973.848,"end":978.13,"text":"謝謝委員你給我上了一課讓我知道勞工保險成立的嚴格還有勞保黑洞的你認為的看法我在這裡做三點的說明第一點"},{"start":1003.063,"end":1029.965,"text":"政府從來沒有認為這個勞保的問題是要勞工來負責而是政府都沒有責任這個我完全不同意因為呢實際上我剛才講過政府會負最後幾戶的責任第二個你剛才說到1996年的時候呢那個時候沒有黑洞但是你也提到沒有精算那如果沒有精算的時候呢實際上那一些人都還在年輕的時候加入保險"},{"start":1030.666,"end":1057.657,"text":"那到了96年他領的錢少當然他還夠嘛因為還大部分的人還在工作可是如果你精算下來的時候也許到96年的時候推算到這一些還在工作的人以後退休要領勞保的時候搞不好那個時候就已經是黑洞了啦那這是第二個我的想法第三個我也完全同意你的意見就是說勞保基金應該要有很好的這個投資"},{"start":1058.277,"end":1061.019,"text":"我不是說你現在我現在是把以前的歷史我現在我要坦白跟你講啦所以說你要讓勞工負債"},{"start":1085.976,"end":1091.48,"text":"我現在指責的並非是我們現在在執政這個從84年以後那當然國民兩黨都有在執政現在不是你的責任問題而是要把問題查清楚第一"},{"start":1108.971,"end":1131.143,"text":"如果今天勞工是繳費不足,那當然大家來想辦法嘛。那事實上不是這樣。因為齁,現在勞工啊,這下午放兩年賠了啦。因為健保他也要繳,勞保他也要繳。事實上真正虧損的部分是84年以前是"},{"start":1133.361,"end":1161.094,"text":"醫療跟勞保通通都是一張單子那當然這個部分確實是虧損那那個時候我問你有沒有精算你們也沒有啊那我不曉得說你們這樣接起來那那個是大動嘛那那個時候的政府當然要負責任我現在沒有講現在的政府現在的政府我坦白跟你講你要我讚賞我可以讚賞第一做得最好的"},{"start":1162.222,"end":1186.107,"text":"是陳菊院長。那個時候對勞工,吃勞工的東西就是占勞工便宜的錢,最後他任內全部都退還。第一,舉例,15年以下不能成熟退休給付,結果他就老了,他就走了,最後陳菊花完一年。第二,許民春部長,"},{"start":1187.315,"end":1202.05,"text":"他是公道的為什麼在前兩年疫情最嚴重的時候他去爭取不一定雇主的職業勞工可以紓困這些所以我們又沒怪你但是我們要把問題理清楚"},{"start":1202.551,"end":1220.836,"text":"今天不是勞工的問題是政府的問題是當時你們沒有精算而現在產生這些虧損把所有責任推給勞工一定要多繳保費要掃零要什麼樣要改革這些東西對勞工是不公平一定 我跟你投訴"},{"start":1221.716,"end":1225.539,"text":"所以你剛才有講過當然我還是肯定你們陸陸續續撥了兩千多億進來這個確確實實你們都有在做你們有在做"},{"start":1237.546,"end":1256.615,"text":"這個我們要高度肯定才有辦法抑制現在基本的水平。那另外一個...委員我再補充一下好不好?其實這個勞保那個未來支付的額度會大另外一個很重要的就是因為你民國85年開始我們的平均壽命在這30年以來漸減到很厲害了"},{"start":1262.097,"end":1264.158,"text":"正常的增加、復減都可以大家來打。這勞工不是一窮不變的。"},{"start":1277.402,"end":1297.796,"text":"是他們的責任,他們該繳的就繳,但是一味的全部責任歸在勞工上面,這個我不贊同。所以一定我跟你說,你剛才有講過撥補要繼續,另外一個我還是比較在乎的,就是跟院長報告,你講的就是要入華啦。"},{"start":1298.955,"end":1321.509,"text":"確定幾乎乎勞工放心。這點一定,你贊成嗎?我贊成啊。好,入閥這個部分本席也會為了這個事把它修改,把它入閥。這樣的話勞工的問題他不會人心惶惶。我現在矯情,連天你跟我說要倒,誰願意去繳錢?所以這個部分我還是希望,我還是希望,院長。"},{"start":1322.776,"end":1340.378,"text":"你是一個我真正的學者出身。我不希望這樣公開的。我希望你連任。連任以後才有辦法去解決這個問題。因為我今天把所有歷史都已經跟院長報告了嘛。我所以希望一定"},{"start":1341.8,"end":1364.994,"text":"這個部分我要拜託你責成部長 特別去把他查清楚該是誰的責任 把他理清楚不要一天到晚就要怪他一千、一百萬的勞工 你們都搞不好 這是對勞工不公平好不好 一定好啊現在要再來跟你談最簡單的就是 談最簡單的一個問題"},{"start":1367.668,"end":1387.512,"text":"消防員組工會來來來主席拜託內政部長閃來一下阿時間要暫停吧委員好一六"},{"start":1389.08,"end":1407.18,"text":"這個當然是探訪生意但是我們什麼東西都不要檢討為什麼為什麼消防員他要組工會其實組工會很簡單嘛他真的是很簡單不要這10年來一定有這10年來是43個"},{"start":1410.373,"end":1424.426,"text":"那問題在哪邊是你們設計你們沒有在訓練或者問題出在哪邊其實坦白跟你講主公會或者主公會最大的目的就是結社前你們也協會也有給他結社前"},{"start":1426.327,"end":1455.472,"text":"另外一個就是那個還有協商錢。你們也給了,但是給的是給一半。協商真正公會法裡面規定是有罰則。你們協會裡面那些協商是沒有罰則。一點那個約束力都沒有。所以一定,我告訴你,這就是做一半沒效了。那最主要是罷工錢。那罷工錢,我說實在本席也反對消防人員他要罷工。"},{"start":1456.377,"end":1476.304,"text":"因為養兵千日用在意識,所以這些罷工錢當然也不能適用,但是一定我是建議重新再盤點,各單位好好去研究一下,即使讓他組工會,不要把他當作洪水猛獸,不用那麼緊張,教師工會,"},{"start":1479.571,"end":1482.293,"text":"我認為因為這裏面有個很重要的就是這個消防員本身是公務員"},{"start":1505.709,"end":1519.733,"text":"那教師的時候,不是每一個都是公務員。啊,第二,就是說公務員現在也有這個,你剛才有說過,我們可以做這個協會嘛。啊,協會裡面的時候,他可以有多少的諮商權啊等等,這可以再來修法啦。啊,我們已經提出一份,在訂一個會期啦。"},{"start":1529.929,"end":1544.703,"text":"但是這個發展這個會期因為預期不遂什麼,我又會再想出來,來大院講,聽這個委員的意見,看我們朝野的做法跟想,想要好讓他比較好,工會比較好還是協會比較好,其實這也要來聽我們這個消防"},{"start":1549.207,"end":1573.293,"text":"林國成的消防兄弟,他們的心聲。他們已經這樣,院長我跟你報告,他們認為是主公會,但是一定我跟你講啦,不要怕,不要怕,因為他們需要的是職業安全法,只要主公會,他就有職業安全法,但是保留,"},{"start":1574.37,"end":1593.128,"text":"我聽說你們內政部都沒同意我跟委員報告一下,你基本談的這是兩件事情這是兩件事情,完全兩件第一個是我們的消防人員依照憲法的規定國家的公務員是必須經過國家考試消防員的身份是公務人員但老師並不是"},{"start":1598.593,"end":1615.696,"text":"公務人員兼具勞工身份的一大堆啦你不要跟我講這個啦沒有沒有這兩件事情怎麼會兩件事情勞工我時間有限我跟你講公務人員兼具勞工身份一大堆只是法令要不要解套而已"},{"start":1616.337,"end":1639.209,"text":"所以齁,我坦白跟你講啊,柏定,沒錯,你從基層上來,那你來這點我就感覺說,你都在基層都白呆了。我說實在的,主公會沒有那麼可怕,但是我同意警消限制罷工錢,那他有其他的,他只要是要入,"},{"start":1640.976,"end":1657.602,"text":"職業安全法嘛因為您現在那是專業信念但是職業安全法它是有法則的喔它是有法令的喔所以他們現在缺法的是職業安全法對他們的保障嘛你放在協會裡面根本就不能放嘛所以"},{"start":1659.322,"end":1673.766,"text":"這職業安全法的補分,就是我們的政府可以在消防法裏面把這個職業的消防人員的職業安全的補分給訂單裏面。這也是另外一個做法。我們本來就有在想說在消防法裏面要來修這個職業安全的補分。當然委員我們的不公的見解,你說你就要"},{"start":1681.528,"end":1692.256,"text":"好啦,原則性我同意啦但是我坦白跟你講外行的話我是不愛聽啦我坦白跟你講職業安全法限定公務人員、經濟勞工身分是可以適用只要你用那個協會那個協會就是社會團體我跟你講那個不是專法啦"},{"start":1710.529,"end":1737.414,"text":"所以我跟你說,你如果要說這些,沒關係,你們既然有這樣做,我希望部長,你們好好跟那個勞動部,這裡好好商量一下,我會繼續追,我會繼續追,好不好?來,那其他那個一定,我很少的時間來,時間暫停一下,請那個,請那個我們法務部,還有我們那個,"},{"start":1738.848,"end":1739.949,"text":"今天我們院裡面有一個打詐的公聽會現在打詐"},{"start":1766.64,"end":1768.765,"text":"我們說實在的這件事因為很多統一現在三萬多件"},{"start":1772.369,"end":1780.353,"text":"詐騙八十幾億,我們說實在的這宜孝國際啦,宜孝國際。我告訴你,全世界都有一個組織,國際組織,他在統計全世界的詐騙。我們說詐騙統一的國家,其實就是紐西蘭、新加坡、美國這些國家啦。"},{"start":1796.701,"end":1797.242,"text":"來,議長,我跟您說"},{"start":1811.244,"end":1837.945,"text":"來,唐部長,你對這個有什麼看法?簡單就好了。我們覺得源頭防治是特別重要,那包含說我們想透過那個電子簽章法案很快會送到這個櫃院,盡可能的讓這種假冒帳號或者假冒名人的狀況可以有所緩解。蔡部長?我們省了30萬,跟警察跟調查局的人,大家都很認真在打架。"},{"start":1840.404,"end":1842.105,"text":"謝謝林委員國成的質詢。謝謝陳院長的答詢。謝謝。接下來我們請登記第17號蔡委員起床"}]}},{"id":"149150","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149150","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e968100b5026af26c03fb74c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a6e1b2bb67ee2f385d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"14:46:39 - 15:17:48","影片長度":"00:31:09","會議時間":"2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-27","duration":1869,"end_time":"2024-02-27T15:17:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-27T14:46:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":77,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（14時46分）謝謝韓院長，我們是不是請陳建仁院長？"],["主席：現在請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：謝委員午安。恭喜你當選連任。"],["謝委員衣鳯：午安。謝謝。即使是連任，我們還是要從選前談起，其實我在選前的院會就有質詢，關於2025年臺紐經濟合作協定會導致紐西蘭的牛乳零關稅進口，這是2023年7月的時候所有臺灣酪農的連署書，他們希望政府可以協助他們，幫他們找到產業未來發展的方向。我想請問，去年也是同樣我們3位，我想要請問，當初我們的目標是希望臺灣的牛乳自給率還是可以達到七成，到目前為止，你們的目標有沒有改變？選前、選後有沒有不一樣？"],["陳院長建仁：好。我想這件事情我們部長有積極的在跟酪農做相關的討論，我請他回答。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，針對臺灣的牛乳因應臺紐合作協定，紐西蘭牛乳零關稅進口的部分，我們從去年的9月到現在大概已經開了6次會議，跟酪農本身進行協調，我們也擬定了整個酪農的精進計畫報院了，主要的內容大概分為幾個部分：第一個部分就是委員所關心的，就是我們未來臺灣的牛奶本身的自給率的部分。目前國內的牛乳產量大概是46萬噸，但是在短期之內，因為我們現在要把一些比較寡產的乳牛淘汰，讓我們養牛擠乳的效率提高，所以我們的自給率，當然目標還是會在九成，但是這個九成我們會先把牛奶的量從46萬噸逐漸的降到43……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們現在的餘奶量是不是很多？因為我們從夏季的牛乳開始就發生了供過於求的問題，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那這個問題目前怎麼解決？"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以我們就是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你們當初在選前有承諾酪農協會，承諾那些酪農朋友，你們要補助每一頭淘汰的乳牛2.5萬，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。我們就是針對寡產的牛，就是產乳的量比較低的這些牛，我們會有一個淘汰的機制……"],["謝委員衣鳯：淘汰的機制嘛。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，有一個淘汰的機制。淘汰的部分我們會做一些補助，那同樣的就是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那補助是多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們原來的規劃大概是2.5萬左右，但是我們整個的經費現在在報院審核當中，最後的經費，我相信我們一定會為酪農爭取最大的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會跳票？"],["陳院長建仁：他已經在申請了嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們已經申請了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會跳票？院長，會不會跳票？"],["陳院長建仁：當然我們說話算話。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不會跳票嘛？我是不是再請衛福部長？因為其實我們在上一次的時候也提到了，就是如果未來紐西蘭的牛乳進入了臺灣的冷鏈系統，你們兩個的說法是不一的，我不知道你們現在檢驗的標準已經合而為一了沒有，不要在臺灣裡面搞一國兩制嘛！是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想基本上我們第一個最重要的目標就是要讓我們的消費者認同我們臺灣的牛奶，所以我們針對臺灣乳標章的部分已經重新設計了，而且也經過酪農跟消費者本身的評選。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那是就臺灣鮮乳的部分。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，臺灣的部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是如果進入冷鏈系統呢？未來紐西蘭的牛乳如果進入臺灣的冷鏈系統裡面呢？當初我們衛福部的薛部長，那時候也是薛部長嘛！薛部長說以目前你們的檢驗方法是沒有辦法區分紐西蘭的牛乳跟臺灣的鮮乳欸！現在你是說可以嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，這個部分我們本身的畜產試驗所已經開發出臺灣乳跟國外進口乳的區別技術，這個技術已經有了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那如果它們是mix，就是說在冷鏈系統裡面已經mix了，那你們有辦法檢驗出來嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們可以查得出來，所以我們現在透過標章的方式，就是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們的畜產所可以，但是未來到了市場以後，甚至到了各縣市以後，都是由衛福部以及各縣市的衛生所去做稽核的工作，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，不過這個要標示啦！因為從進來開始就要做一系列的……"],["陳院長建仁：對，有標章啊！"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，可是未來到時候也會有稽核的動作。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那稽核的動作是採衛福部的標準還是採農業部的標準？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想整個標章制度是由衛福部這邊規範的。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["陳代理部長駿季：那進口跟國產的區分，只要它是混的然後沒有標示的時候，那就是違法。第二個部分我要跟委員說明的就是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：違法是一件事情，我當然知道只要混的就是違法。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是如果混的你沒有辦法查的時候，那你怎麼知道它違法嘛！是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，在後面的市場查需要比較耗費大的人力跟物力，所以現在的設計是我們在源頭的時候、在乳場的時候，用我們臺灣乳這樣的標章去做一些區隔，然後有這個標章的話，就一定是用臺灣乳去製成的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：現在我們也有標章啊！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你現在講的就是說，我們如果有這個牛乳的履歷，然後有牛乳的標章，然後看是臺灣牛還是紐西蘭牛。你現在擔心的就是說有一些人、少數的人會去混用，但是混用被抓到當然就處罰啊！當場檢驗、當場處罰啊！"],["謝委員衣鳯：問題是怎麼抓啊！是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：剛才已經講過……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們有檢驗技術。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我現在在講檢驗的方式，問題是到時候是採怎麼樣的檢驗方式嘛！既然農業部現在認為他們已經有辦法查核，因應未來外國的牛乳混充成臺灣鮮奶，那這樣子的查核機制總要給大家知道嘛！你們也要跨部會合作啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們都有跨部會的合作，包括我們檢驗的技術。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是，像去年的時候衛福部還沒有辦法查核嘛！你今年才告訴他們嘛！我想要知道的是他們有沒有辦法用你們的技術檢查。"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我們的技術一定要由衛福部這邊，經過一個程序認可以後就變成一個公告的法定方法，透過這個公告的方法就可以去查驗，而且不是畜產試驗所，我們會把這個技術……"],["謝委員衣鳯：什麼時候？現在已經……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們現在已經在申請，就是跟衛福部查核……"],["謝委員衣鳯：現在正在申請？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：什麼時候會完成？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我覺得如果審查得快的話，依過往的經驗大概兩三個月就會確認了，在確認了以後，我們會把這個技術給相關、類似SGS等其他能夠做檢驗的單位，這樣的話，那個檢驗的量能才能夠提高。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道啊！我就是在問你，你們這個部分要統合清楚嘛！是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳院長建仁：當然。"],["謝委員衣鳯：到時候檢查的時候才不會標準不一嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：不會一個部一個走法啦！不會啦！這個政府是一體的啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：他們在去年的說法是不一的嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：去年是因為還沒有這個方法嘛！現在已經統一了，所以委員不用擔心，我們一定不會各部走各的路，一定是整合在一起。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有，我們還要提到畜牧業的廢棄物，不只是一般的廢棄物，甚至是牠們的糞尿這些廢棄物。其實目前民眾對於這些廢棄物的處理方式還是大有疑慮，你們農業部跟環境部有沒有辦法採取更先進的作法來減少那個味道的產生？減少這些廢棄物的處理場變成嫌惡設施，有沒有辦法處理到這種情況？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，整個畜產部分的這些廢棄物，我們現在把它稱為農業剩餘資材，因為它還可以再利用的部分……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，再利用。"],["陳代理部長駿季：然後這個再利用的部分，我舉個例子，就是養豬場本身那些過去一直被詬病的禽畜尿的污水，我們現在用高床的處理，高床的處理就減少了用水，相對的，整個污水量就會變少，然後把這些禽畜糞尿本身去發電……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我知道。那你們到底處理了多少？我們彰化縣你們處理了多少？你們補助了多少去設？你們做了多少這樣高床的設施，減少他們這些資材的那種……"],["陳代理部長駿季：彰化的部分我可能要查，但是以整體來講，就是整個畜牧場裡面應該有兩千多場在申請、在改建了，totally大概有五千多場，所以以全國來講，將近有三成的養豬場已經在做這樣改善的部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：彰化有多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：彰化的部分我想我們會後再提供給您。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我現在就在問你啦！你後面的幕僚單位可以趕快把數字給你啊！"],["陳院長建仁：質詢完我們再……"],["陳代理部長駿季：會後我再提供給您。"],["謝委員衣鳯：數字給你啊！"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！質詢完我們再給委員報告。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊！那環境部呢？環境部你們在協助這部分，你們還是用槽運車，有沒有更先進的方式呢？因為槽運車在運送的過程當中，還是會產生不必要的味道或者是髒亂，要怎麼樣減少這部分？"],["薛部長富盛：跟謝委員報告，這一塊我們是希望能夠在地把它做一個循環的應用，而不需要再用槽運車運到其他地方去處理，所以這一塊我們會跟農業部積極來合作。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果未來你們預估的方式是採用在地利用，我甚至不知道你們在地利用這個方式到520之後會不會改變。"],["薛部長富盛：這個政策應該是不會改變，因為資源的循環事實上是未來的一個趨勢。"],["謝委員衣鳯：院長，您確定嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想農業沒有廢棄物啦！農業資源，這些剩餘資產的再利用，我們一定是一貫的，而且不管是在現在或者520以後，當然是因為仍然還是同一個政黨在執政，怎麼可能會改變？"],["謝委員衣鳯：請看下一張，我給你看下一張，你看這個是2024年1月22號，我們嘉義縣的翁縣長說，在嘉義，台糖有非常多的地可以歡迎台積電來利用。那我想請問，我們在選前的時候也積極在爭取，我們彰化縣也有非常多台糖的土地，甚至我們二林也希望設置二林精密機械園區，台糖農地發展成工業區的條件是不是跨縣市有不同？選前、選後有不同？到時候換政府，就是換政府執政的時候，會不會有不同？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你講話不必要這樣講，我想讓我們部長來說明。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我先跟委員說明，二林精密機械園區本身，事實上在97年就開始有一些相關環評的審查，現在最大的問題就是，在這個園區裡面有2種鳥類，就是黑翅鳶還有燕鴴這2個保育類的鳥類，必須要做適當的解決方案，讓這個棲地得以維持。到目前為止，到了大概去年12月的時候，彰化縣政府提供的這些解決方案，跟它之前所提出來的說法相較並沒有改變。換句話說，這2個保育類還沒有找到解決方案之前，二階的環評大會是沒辦法召開的，所以目前的卡關是在整個保育類的部分。我們農業部跟彰化縣政府也提過了，我們會跟我們的生物多樣性研究所一起來努力，把那個解決方案找出來。"],["謝委員衣鳯：過去我們在發展……其實這已經很久了，在王惠美縣長之前，甚至在魏明谷縣長的時候，都已經提出二林精密機械園區，那時候都沒有提出有保育鳥類的問題，可是為什麼突然之間就產生這個問題？"],["陳院長建仁：就是環評……"],["謝委員衣鳯：甚至我們發現說……沒有，那環評大會在之前好像都沒有提出相關的問題。但是我想要請教的就是，為什麼在嘉義台積電可以使用台糖的農地，而我們二林的精密機械園區沒有辦法使用台糖的農地？是不是跨縣市有不同？"],["陳院長建仁：當然不是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還是政黨有不同？還是產業不同？"],["陳代理部長駿季：以農業部來講，我們是針對土地本身的可利用性跟土壤的質地，我們不會去管地上物是台糖的土地或是私人的土地，或是國有地，這第一個要說明。第二個要說明的就是，我們針對用地一定會跟經濟發展做一些相關的配合，但是在配合的過程中，裡面如果有有機栽培區，我們就會去提醒，如果要作為一個園區，就一定要想辦法把有機栽培園區做妥適的處理；如果裡面有保育、有棲地必要性的時候，我們也會提醒；如果提醒過了以後，他有做一個適度的解決方案的時候，那通常就不會有問題。以二林精密園區來講，我們在100年的時候就已經同意它做農地變更了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我就說本來在之前它就已經同意要變成精密工業園區。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：王美花部長已經在後面等了，給他講一下好了，是不是就產業別有差別？到底我們臺灣的精密機械產業有沒有前景？還是以目前來看，我們的電力上漲，可能未來也有碳費的問題等等，再加上我們跟周邊國家的關稅貿易協定，以及雙方的關稅貿易協定都沒有簽訂，再加上地緣政治的問題，讓臺灣的傳產都發生了非常重大的結構性問題，是不是我們經濟部就乾脆讓這些隱形冠軍、讓這些傳產自然淘汰，沒有辦法有生存的空間？"],["王部長美花：不會、不會，絕對不會，我們其實非常重視委員提到的這些產業，我們也希望它能夠升級轉型。委員提的二林精密園區，因為它有兩個步驟，一個是都市計畫的變更，另外一個是環評的問題。這兩個部分，其中都市計畫的部分，目前內政部在幫忙審查當中，因為去年12月的時候彰化縣政府有補一個資料進來，內政部現在在審視。而環評的部分，環評這邊也希望我們跟農業部再磋商，所以整個步驟目前是還在進行當中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你們跟農業部進行的磋商……"],["王部長美花：另外，常常在環評也被問到的一個問題，那就是目前二林科學園區的進駐率有沒有提升？提升了以後就表示用地需求一直在增加，這樣也會對我們開發二林精密園區的需要性比較有幫助。這幾個問題經濟部也會來跟相關的部會合作。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還是你們就是默默地把它移到嘉義……"],["陳院長建仁：嘉義有嘉義的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為嘉義的台糖農地都比較不會產生保育類動物的問題。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你這樣說的話不是事實啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：然後你看我們翁縣長講啦，比較不會有抗爭啊，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員說明，全臺灣的保育類，包括它重要的棲地，我們有一個生態綠網的圖資，是可以套圖的，這個生態綠網的圖資是我們過去大概將近10年來不斷地去重建它的生態區跟保育區，特別是要因應未來整個環境永續面。所以，在不同的地區，不會因為這個棲地遇到不同的地區就會移動。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你如果再跟我講這個，那我再跟你提，同樣的，我發現很多光電業者，他們要在我們的溼地，就是芳苑鄉、大城鄉等等的溼地上建立光電，就是要設置太陽光板。我問你，目前如果像這樣子的精密機械園區做的是比較大規模的經濟……。我也想要請問，在那樣子的情況下，為什麼有時候光電業者可以跟國產署對於相關農地申請變更成特殊事業用地做光電的生產？為什麼有時候在這樣子比較重大有經濟前景的情況下，這種大規模的、有聚落效應的產業沒有辦法使用這些農地，而這些零碎性的可以使用農地？這會對環境造成什麼樣的影響？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，目前以農地提供作為光電使用的部分大概分為三大類，第一大類就是漁電共生區，這個漁電共生區大概2萬0,905公頃，第二個部分是不利耕作區，是2,162公頃，第三個部分大概是用農地變更的方式，這些地在圈出來之前都一定經過生態檢核和環社檢核，檢核完畢確定這裡面的區位沒有跟必須保護的棲地有關，我們才會把它框出來，所以它有一定的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：院長，我跟你說好不好？現在多少面積的光電需要申請環評？"],["王部長美花：光電目前不是環評，是用環社檢核，因為它對環境的影響相對跟設工廠本來就不太一樣。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那是多少面積需要申請環社檢核？"],["王部長美花：它其實是區域的問題，我們就跟農業部合作來做相關的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們都在政府部門工作，必須瞭解實際的狀況，我聽到的現況是他們就化整為零啊！同樣一個區塊，他們可以申請設立多一點公司，然後分塊來申請，減少需要面臨環評或環社檢核的條件啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，環社檢核不會因為面積變小就不做，我剛才說了，就在我們所框定的漁電共生區兩萬多公頃，我們已經初步做了環社檢核、比較低敏感的，但是你在申請的時候同樣會再確認一次，不管你是1公頃或是10公頃，都還是要經過環社的檢核過，這是在整個申請過程中一個必要的條件。以農業部來講，我們一定會去保護我們的農地，所以到目前為止，2萬905公頃裡面的漁電共生區只用了大概兩千兩百多公頃，不到十分之一，不利耕作區也用不到三分之一，就是因為我們持續在跟經濟部一起努力，有做一個非常嚴謹的審查，不會對生態造成一些影響。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是之前你們其實就已經希望國產署或各部會的土地都設定成大家共同來推光電，是不是？"],["王部長美花：沒有，我們一定是先盤出這合不合適設光電，然後才會去推，如果那個區域不合適，第一關就會被農業部打槍了，所以不太可能。"],["陳院長建仁：我想部會是整合的啦！委員，你會有你的懷疑，我尊重，但是我要跟委員報告，在整個光電的發展上，實際上我們部會之間都有很密切的協調，我們是希望能夠在環境保育做得很好，而且能夠發展光電的情況下一起來推動，所以你會覺得：唉喲，怎麼會審查這麼多、這麼多？問題就是希望臺灣能夠有產業的發展，又有環境的保護，統統能夠兼顧嘛！所以你這樣講片面的，實際上不是我們的情況，我們部會是合作的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是，我也是把目前民眾的想法跟您分享嘛！因為……"],["陳院長建仁：民眾的想法有些可能不正確啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為我們必須在這裡對於國家未來的政策進行溝通，總是要達到全民共識的方向嘛！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我謝謝你、謝謝你，謝謝，但是民眾的想法不見得對啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：我也看了台電的發電成本，再生能源我們的自發電力2022年是1.72元，2023年是2.53元，其實都比購入電力低很多，所以民眾就會希望，尤其是非常多中小企業廠商他們沒有辦法花那麼多錢，再加上3月份電價審議委員會有可能會對未來的電價做適當的調整，這可能都會漲到民生電價以及所有產業的用電，這個部分我們有沒有辦法調整再生能源的電價呢？"],["王部長美花：再生能源部分，事實上現在對新的離岸風電，其實都已經是讓民間來買電了，不用躉購費率，所以台電對離岸風電沒有再用躉購費率來收購。太陽光電的部分，事實上從今年開始，越來越多的企業會把……甚至現在的躉購費率會變成是他們自己去買電，所以太陽光電來躉購費率給台電部分的占比也會逐漸的降低。因為發展再生能源對整個國家是很必須的，所以我們還是要支持再生能源的發展。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，可是我們即便是很必須……我也認為啦！因為未來整個就是世界的趨勢……"],["王部長美花：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是我們目前看到的，其實我有找了一張，就是你們去年跟前年的電力供需概況，我發現其實我們今年度的工業用電減少非常大，然後我們工業部門的用電需求占比是56.1%，它就降低了2.8%，其實這是因為全球景氣的關係，以及我們是仰賴出口的關係。我們目前沒有缺電的問題，有可能是因為景氣不好，工廠的生產沒有這麼大需求的情況，導致我們電力需求沒有這麼高，那是不是在這個時間點，我們對於光電的發展要進行一些調整？我們再回來看我們的電力結構裡面，其實我們發現再生能源即便是……我不要講是錯誤的能源，講錯誤的能源等一下陳院長就跳腳了，但是我們總要檢討……"],["陳院長建仁：再生能源怎麼會是錯誤能源？"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們總要檢討……"],["陳院長建仁：這個是違反世界潮流。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們總要檢討一下嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：可以檢討。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是？我們總要檢討一下……"],["陳院長建仁：檢討就是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為即便是目前，我們希望我們的再生能源占比增加，但是以目前你們的速度，要達到你們2025年想要的20%的那個目標，是遠遠不可能，除非技術進步，那現在我們有什麼樣子技術進步的能量嗎？能夠讓我們2025可以……而且我再說一下，尤其是太陽能光電，我有看過台電太陽能光電的發展跟一般民間太陽能光電的發展，為什麼民眾對於光電業的發展認為需要做部分的檢討？那就是在法令限制的模糊空間裡面，第一個，我們有沒有辦法提高太陽能光電的效率？即便我們要再生能源，我們也希望技術進步可以促進光電發電的效率……"],["陳院長建仁：是，同意。"],["謝委員衣鳯：在既有的設施上面，我們有沒有辦法提高光電的發電效率，以及怎麼樣子在鄰近民宅、鄰近其他的設施裡面，就是有退縮的機制？所以在法令上面，有沒有可能在520之前你們做一個檢討，然後在法規上面做改變？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我聽不太懂這個退縮的機制是什麼，是正常的機制嗎？"],["王部長美花：這個部分……"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是，它在一塊地裡面，例如它比較接近民宅，或者是接近……因為有時候接近民宅是可以設置光電的，那這個部分你要不要做退縮的機制？"],["王部長美花：有、有，這個……"],["謝委員衣鳯：然後這個要修改法令，對不對？"],["王部長美花：其實是我們的規範，不需要到法律的部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：然後這個部分是不是必須要做一個……然後發電的太陽能板也有非常多種耶！未來比較高發電效率的太陽能板是什麼？未來是不是大家應該要採取高效率發電量的太陽能板？這都需要做進一步的檢討，不然以目前臺灣剩餘的土地，有沒有辦法全面性的發展？然後在全面性的發展以外，對於民眾而言，他們會不會覺得受到困擾，因為太陽能板在旁邊很熱嘛！很亮嘛！這都是一種嫌惡的設施嘛！這也會影響到民眾居住的品質。你不要笑啊！"],["陳院長建仁：太陽能板是邪惡的設施？這樣的講法……"],["謝委員衣鳯：嫌惡啦！嫌惡。"],["陳院長建仁：嫌惡？被人家嫌、被人家討厭嘛，你的意思是這樣嘛？"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，就是啊！"],["陳院長建仁：太陽能板是被人家嫌惡的設施，這樣的講法，我想跟一般的理解是不太一樣，可是我完全尊重委員的講法，確實太陽能發電的技術一直在進步，我同意你的想法，就是如果有更好的技術，我們當然要採用啊！這個我完全同意，然後我們不要讓民眾覺得嫌惡，當然距離要退縮……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，不要讓民眾覺得嫌惡，要怎麼樣做？"],["陳院長建仁：這個我也同意。"],["謝委員衣鳯：要怎麼做？"],["王部長美花：所以有兩個部分，一個就是如果這個太陽能面板離居住的地方很近了，目前我們有規範，它四周一定要退縮，然後用綠帶來隔離，不要造成附近很接近居民視野上的問題。第二個，太陽能面板要用更高效率這個部分，第一，我們會在技術上希望業者不斷的研發；第二，如果有這個技術出來，其實廠商也想擴廠去改變用更高效率的部分，這也是要看在國內發展的情形。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，我們知道以目前來看，如果沒有先進的技術之下，我們再生能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們的目標是希望臺灣的牛乳自主力還是可以達到7成那以目前為止你們的目標有沒有改變選前選後我想這件事情我們部長有積極的在跟駱龍有做相關的討論我請他做一個回答"},{"start":65.857,"end":89.107,"text":"我跟那個委員說明就是針對那個臺灣的一個牛乳陰陰那個台牛的一個自由靈觀罪進口的部分我們大概已經從去年的9月到現在大概已經開了大概6次的會議跟洛農本身的一個協調那我們也擬定了整個一個洛農的一個精進的一個計畫抱怨了那主要的內容大概分為幾個部分"},{"start":90.387,"end":108.775,"text":"第一個部分就是委員所關心的就是我們未來台灣的牛奶本身的自給率的部分那現在目前國內的牛乳的部分大概是46萬噸但是在短期之內因為我們現在把一些比較寡產的這個乳牛做一些淘汰"},{"start":109.335,"end":113.78,"text":"因為我們現在的牛奶量是不是很多因為從我們夏季的牛乳開始就發生了供過於求的這樣子的問題"},{"start":131.118,"end":146.623,"text":"是不是?那這個問題目前怎麼解決?所以你們當初在選前有承諾糯農協會承諾那些糯農的朋友你們要補助每一頭牛就是淘汰乳牛2.5萬是不是?"},{"start":148.564,"end":176.139,"text":"對,我們就是寡產的牛,不是就是他產乳的量比較低的這些牛,寡產的牛我們會有一個就是淘汰的一個機制,對有一個淘汰的機制,那淘汰部分我們會做一些補助,那同樣的就是 那補助是多少?我們現在原來規劃大概是兩萬五左右,但是我們整個的經費現在在抱怨在審核當中,最後的經費我相信我們一定會為弱農爭取最大的一個量,會不會跳票?"},{"start":178.454,"end":205.482,"text":"他已經在申請了嘛。會不會跳票啊?院長會不會跳票?當然,我們說話算話。不會跳票嘛。那我是不是再請衛福部長,因為其實我們在上一次的時候也提到了,就是說如果未來紐西蘭的這個牛乳進入了台灣的能源系統,你們兩個說法是不一的。我不知道你們現在檢驗的標準已經合而為一了沒有?不要在台灣裡面搞兩次嘛,一國兩制嘛。"},{"start":206.122,"end":224.657,"text":"我想基本上我們第一個最重要的目標就是要讓我們的消費者認同我們台灣的牛奶所以我們針對標章的部分台灣乳的標章的部分我們已經重新設計了而且也經過酪農跟消費者本身的一個評選那是就台灣先入的部分對台灣的部分對"},{"start":225.578,"end":242.755,"text":"但是如果進入冷鏈系統呢,未來紐西蘭的牛乳如果進入臺灣的冷鏈系統裡面,當初我們衛福部薛部長也是薛部長嘛,你說以目前你們的檢驗方法是沒有辦法區分紐西蘭的牛乳跟臺灣的鮮乳。"},{"start":243.956,"end":246.659,"text":"那如果他們是mixed,就是說在冷電系統裡面已經mixed,"},{"start":259.676,"end":281.074,"text":"那你們有辦法檢驗出來嗎?我們可以查得出來所以我們現在透過標準的方式但是未來但是你們的續產所可以但是未來到了市場以後甚至到了各縣市以後都是由衛福部以及各縣市的衛生所去做集合的工作對不對?"},{"start":283.096,"end":307.214,"text":"對。不過這要標示啦。從進來開始。我知道可是未來到時候也會有集合的動作啊。那集合的動作是踩衛福部的標準還是踩農業部的標準?我想整個的標章制度是由衛福部這邊規範的。那進口跟國產的區分只要它是混的然後沒有標示的時候那就是違法。"},{"start":308.26,"end":329.708,"text":"那第二個部分我要跟委員說明的就是違法違法是一件事情我當然知道只要混的就是違法但是如果混的你沒有辦法查的時候那你怎麼知道他違法我跟委員說明齁後市場的查那個是需要比較耗費大的人力跟物力所以我們現在設計是說我們在源頭的時候爐廠的時候我們台灣爐標章的時候"},{"start":337.735,"end":355.031,"text":"委員你現在講的就是說我們如果有這個牛乳的履歷然後有牛乳的標章然後看是台灣牛還是有西南牛你現在擔心的就是說有一些人少數的人他會去混用但是混用抓到當然就處罰"},{"start":356.332,"end":363.094,"text":"問題是怎麼抓?問題是到時候是採怎麼樣的檢驗方式嗎?那農業部應該既然農業部現在認為他們已經有辦法查核這樣子就是把就是未來外國的牛乳混沖成臺灣的鮮奶的時候那這樣子查核的機制總要給大家知道嘛"},{"start":385.021,"end":388.743,"text":"我們的技術一定要經過衛福部這邊經過一個程序認可以後就變成一個公告的法定的方法"},{"start":410.416,"end":411.276,"text":"我知道啊,我就是在問你說"},{"start":439.284,"end":460.394,"text":"你們這個部分要統合清楚嘛,是不是?到時候檢查的才不會標準不一嘛。他們去年說法是不一的嘛。去年是因為還沒有這個方法嘛,那現在已經統一了嘛。所以委員你不用擔心,我們一定不會各步走各的路,一定是整合在一起。"},{"start":461.48,"end":478.574,"text":"還有我們還提到了就是畜牧業的廢棄物那不只是一般的廢棄物甚至是他們的糞尿的這個廢棄物其實目前民眾對於這些廢棄物的處理方式還是大有疑慮"},{"start":479.415,"end":481.256,"text":"我跟委員說明就是整個"},{"start":503.731,"end":526.492,"text":"續產的部分的這些廢棄物我們現在把它把它稱為農業剩餘資材因為它還可以再利用的部分然後這個再利用的部分我舉個例子就是養豬場本身的那些過去一直被詬病的那個情緒那樣的污水我們現在用高床的處理高床的處理的話就減少的用水那相對的它整個污水量就會變少然後把這些"},{"start":527.293,"end":549.554,"text":"對我知道那你們到底處理了多少我們彰化縣你們處理了多少你們補助了多少續設你們做了多少這樣子高床的設施減少就是這樣子就是他們這些資材的我想彰化的部分我可能要查但是以整體來講就是整個畜牧場裡面有大概有4"},{"start":550.935,"end":567.572,"text":"應該就2000多場在申請在改建了那totally大概有5000多場所以已經將近有三成的全國來講將近有三成的這些養豬場已經在做這樣的一個改善的部分張嬅有多少張嬅我想廢後我們廢後再提供給你廢後我再提供給你數字給你阿"},{"start":573.699,"end":594.979,"text":"對啊,執行完我們再給委員拜訪。對啊,那環境部呢?環境部你們到底在協助這部分,你們還是用潮運車,那有沒有更先進的方式呢?因為潮運車去運送這個過程當中還是會產生就是不必要的衛道啊或者是髒亂也好,那怎麼樣子減少這部分?"},{"start":596.183,"end":619.713,"text":"給謝委員報告這一塊我們是希望說能夠在地把它做一個循環的應用而不需要再用潮運車運到其他地方去處理所以這一塊我們會跟農業部那如果你們現在已經未來你們預估的方式是採用在地利用我甚至不知道你們在地利用這個方式到520之後會不會改變"},{"start":621.296,"end":643.388,"text":"這個政策應該是不會改變,因為資源的循環事實上是未來的一個趨勢。我想這個農業沒有廢棄物啦,農業資源這些剩餘資產的這個再利用我們是一定是一貫的,而且不管是在現在或者520以後當然是因為還是仍然同一個"},{"start":645.526,"end":649.858,"text":"政黨在執政嗎?怎麼可能會改變?我給你看下一張,你看這個"},{"start":652.28,"end":678.277,"text":"這個是2024年1月22號我們嘉義縣的翁縣長他說的他說在嘉義台塘有非常多的地可以歡迎台積電來利用那我想請問為什麼我們在選前的時候也積極在爭取我們彰化縣也有非常多台塘的土地那甚至在這個我們20也希望設置20精密機械園區"},{"start":679.878,"end":697.95,"text":"像設置二齡精密機械園區這樣子的難道是臺堂的農地發展成工業區的條件是不是跨縣市有不同選前選後有不同到時候換政府就是換政府執政的時候會不會有不同"},{"start":698.564,"end":721.184,"text":"委員你講話不必要這樣講我想讓我們部長來說明我先跟委員說明就是惡靈機械的精密園區本身事實上在97年就開始有一些相關的一個環評的一個審查那現在最大的一個問題就是在這個園區裡面它有所謂的兩種鳥類就是那個黑"},{"start":722.125,"end":743.754,"text":"黑尾菸還有一個雁橫這兩個保育類的鳥類必須要做適當的一個解決方案讓這個棲地能夠得以維持那目前為止到了大概去年12月的時候彰化縣政府提供的這些解決方案並沒有做任何跟他之前所提出來的說法有改變"},{"start":744.474,"end":765.961,"text":"換句話說在這個兩個保育類還沒有還沒有把它找到解決方案之前那個環評的二階的環評他大會是沒辦法召開的所以現在是目前的卡關是在整個保育類的部分那我們農業部會跟彰化縣政府我們也提過了我們會跟我們的生物多樣性研究所一起來努力把這個那個解決方案把它找出來"},{"start":767.666,"end":794.32,"text":"過去我們在發展其實這已經很久了在王惠美縣長之前甚至在那個衛明谷縣長的時候都已經提出這個惡靈精密機械元素那時候都沒有提出有這個保育鳥類的問題可是為什麼突然之間就產生這個問題甚至我們就是發現說沒有那環評大會在之前好像都沒有提出相關的問題"},{"start":795.46,"end":810.554,"text":"但是我想要請教的就是為什麼在嘉義是台積電可以使用台塘的農地而我們20的精密機械園區沒有辦法使用台塘的農地那是不是跨縣市有不同?"},{"start":811.915,"end":831.484,"text":"當然不是。以農業部來講,我們是針對土地本身的一個可利用性,跟它土壤的質地。我們不會去管說地上物是台湯的土地或是私人的土地或是國有地的部分。這第一個要說明。第二個要說明的就是我們在針對"},{"start":833.366,"end":854.748,"text":"我們一定會跟產業就是我們的經濟發展做一些相關的配合但是在配合的過程中我們會針對裡面如果說有有機的栽培區我們就會去提醒如果你要做一個園區就一定要想辦法把有機栽培園區做妥適的處理那如果裡面它有保育有棲地的必要性的時候那我們也會做提醒"},{"start":855.248,"end":878.418,"text":"那如果說提醒過了以後他有做適度的一個解決方案的時候那通常就不會有問題以惡靈精密園區來講我們在100年的時候就已經同意他做農地變更了對我就說他本來在之前他就已經同意要變成就是精密工業園區但是那個王美花部長已經在後面等了給他講一下好了"},{"start":880.054,"end":905.978,"text":"是不是就產業別有差別到底我們臺灣的精密機械產業有沒有前景還是以目前來看我們的電力上漲可能未來也有碳費的問題等等的再加上我們跟周邊國家的關稅貿易協定以及雙方的關稅貿易協定都沒有簽訂再加上地緣政治的問題讓臺灣的傳產"},{"start":909.059,"end":930.914,"text":"都發生了非常重大的結構性的問題是不是我們經濟部就乾脆讓這些隱形冠軍讓這些傳產讓他們自然淘汰沒有辦法有生活的不會不會絕對不會我們其實非常重視委員提到這些產業那我們也希望他能夠升級轉型那委員提到這個惡靈精密園區因為他兩個步驟一個是都市"},{"start":936.118,"end":959.241,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":959.642,"end":964.088,"text":"所以整個步驟目前是還在進行當中。另外一個問題常常在環評也被問到一個問題目前的這個"},{"start":972.642,"end":988.707,"text":"科學園區的進駐率有沒有提升那這個也會就是說提升了以後就表示這個用地的需求一直在增加那這樣也會對我們開發20精密園區的需要性也會比較有幫助那所以這幾個問題的部分"},{"start":990.607,"end":1010.58,"text":"那經濟部也會來跟相關的部會合作還是你們就是默默的就把他移到嘉義啊?就是你在我這台上不見嘉義有嘉義的嘉義的台湯的農地都比較不會產生保育類的那個動物啊委員你這樣說的話不是事實啊就是移到不會有抗爭啊"},{"start":1011.721,"end":1012.361,"text":"你如果再跟我講這個那我再跟你提到了"},{"start":1040.106,"end":1057.442,"text":"那但是同樣的我發現了很多的光電業者他們要在我們的濕地就是方圓鄉啊大城鄉等等的濕地建立光電的就是要設置太陽光板那"},{"start":1057.902,"end":1082.668,"text":"我問你現在目前如果像這樣子的精密機械園區做的是比較有大規模的經濟我也想要請問那在那樣子的情況下為什麼有時候光電業者可以跟國產署對於相關的農地來申請變更成就是特殊事業用地嘛做光電的生產"},{"start":1083.328,"end":1104.75,"text":"那為什麼有時候在這樣子比較重大有工業就是有一些經濟前景的情況下這種大規模的有那個聚酪效應的產業沒有辦法使用這些農地而這些零碎性的可以使用農地那這對於環境的影響"},{"start":1106.772,"end":1121.147,"text":"我跟委員說明齁,現在目前以農地提供作為光電用使用的部分大概分為三大類。第一大類就是漁電工程區。那這個漁電工程區大概20905公頃。那第二個部分是不利耕作區是2162公頃。"},{"start":1124.17,"end":1149.523,"text":"那第三個部分是,大概是用農地變更的方式。這些地的圈出來之前,它都一定經過生態檢核跟環社的一個檢核。檢核完了,確定了它不,這裡面的區位是沒有跟所謂的棲地,我們必須要保護的棲地有關,我們才會把它框出來。所以它有一定的,對。縣長,我跟妳說好不好。他們跟我講說,"},{"start":1151.424,"end":1169.674,"text":"現在多少面積的光電需要申請環評?光電目前不是,是用環射檢測的部分,因為它對環境的影響相對跟設工廠本來就不太一樣。多少面積需要申請環射?"},{"start":1171.712,"end":1187.509,"text":"其實是區域的問題,那我們就跟農業部合作來做相關的...因為我聽到的現況,我們都在政府部門工作嘛,那我們必須要了解實地的狀況嘛。"},{"start":1189.031,"end":1203.486,"text":"現況是他們就化整為零啊。他們就把那個就是同樣一個區塊,他們可以申請設立公司多一點,然後分塊來就是申請。那減少需要面臨這種環評或環社的條件啊。"},{"start":1205.728,"end":1223.563,"text":"反射檢測不會因為你的面積變小了就不做反射檢測就在我剛才說的就在我們所框定的漁電工程區兩萬多公頃我們已經初步做反射的一個檢核比較低敏感的但是你在申請的時候同樣會再確認一次"},{"start":1224.284,"end":1253.564,"text":"不管你是一公頃或是十公頃都還是要經過環社的檢核過這個是在整個的申請過程中一個必要的一個條件以農業部來講我們一定會去保護我們的農地所以到目前為止20905公頃裡面的餘電公升值用了大概2200多公頃不到十分之一不利工作區也用不到三分之一就是因為我們持續在跟經濟部一起努力有做一個非常嚴謹的審查不會對我們生態造成一些影響"},{"start":1254.804,"end":1271.349,"text":"但是在過去的時候在之前的時候其實就已經你們都把就是說國產署的土地或者是各部會的土地都已經希望設定成就是大家共同來推光電了是不是?"},{"start":1272.659,"end":1276.203,"text":"我知道說我具體我們一定是先盤出說這個合不合適射光墊然後才會去推如果那個區域是不合適我們第一關就會被農委會打槍了不太可能"},{"start":1287.899,"end":1312.456,"text":"我想部會是整合的啦委員你會有你的懷疑那是我是尊重但是我要跟委員報告在整個關店的發展上實際上我們部會之間都有很密切的協調我們是希望能夠在環境保育做得很好而且呢能夠發展關店的情況下一起來推動所以你會覺得哎呀怎麼會審查這麼多這麼多"},{"start":1315.098,"end":1342.679,"text":"問題就是說希望台灣能夠有產業的發展又有環境的保護通通能夠兼顧嘛所以你這樣講片面的實際上不是我們的情況我們部會是合作的我也是把就是說目前民眾他們的想法跟你分享嘛民眾的想法有些可能不正確啦我們必須要在這裡就是要對於國家未來的政策總是要在這裡達到溝通達到全民共識的方向啦對不對"},{"start":1343.459,"end":1343.841,"text":"這是台電的上一張。"},{"start":1353.38,"end":1375.032,"text":"我們看到這是臺電它的發電成本那其實我們自發的電力在再生能源我們自發的電力是1.72塊在2022年的時候2023年的時候是2.53那其實我們都比購入的電力都非常的都是低很多那所以民眾就會希望說是不是"},{"start":1376.213,"end":1402.048,"text":"尤其是非常多中小企業廠商他們沒有辦法花那麼多錢那再加上有可能3月份的電價審議委員會未來對於電價的發電也會做適當的調整那這可能都會漲到民生電價以及所有的產業的用電那這個部分我們有沒有辦法調整再生能源的這個電價呢"},{"start":1404.509,"end":1429.974,"text":"在聖誕園部分事實上現在對新的這個離岸風電其實都已經是讓民間來買電了不用短購費率那所以臺電對離岸風電沒有再用這個短購費率來收購那太陽光電的部分事實上從今年開始那越來越多的企業會把甚至現在的短購費率會變成是他們自己去買電"},{"start":1430.974,"end":1446.204,"text":"所以這個太陽光電來賺購匯率給台電的部分的占比呢也會逐漸的來降低啦那因為發展再生能源對整個國家是很必須的所以我們還是要支持這個再生能源的發展"},{"start":1447.399,"end":1471.786,"text":"對可是我們即便是很必須我也我也認為啦因為未來整個就是說世界的趨勢但是在目前我們我們目前看到其實我有找了一張就是你們去年跟前年的電力供應供需的概況發現了其實我們今年度的就是工業用電就是減少非常大嗎"},{"start":1472.586,"end":1499.033,"text":"然後我們的工業用電工業部門的用電它的需求是暫比是56.1%嘛它就降低了2.8%所以在其實這是因為全球景氣的關係以及我們是仰賴出口的關係那導致於我們目前沒有缺電的問題有可能是因為景氣不好那工廠的生產沒有這麼大的需求的情況下所導致我們電力需求沒有這麼高的情況下"},{"start":1499.713,"end":1521.669,"text":"那是不是在這個時間點我們對於光電的這個發展要進行一些調整啊?我們再回來看喔就是看我們的電力結構裡面喔其實我們發現再生能源即便是我不要講你們是錯誤的能源錯誤能源等一下你陳院長就跳腳啦但是我們總要節省"},{"start":1524.591,"end":1552.11,"text":"我們總要檢討一下嗎?因為即便是目前我們希望我們的再生能源占比增加但是以目前你們的速度要達到你們2025年想要的20%的那個目標是遠遠不可能除非技術進步那現在目前我們有什麼樣子技術進步的能量嗎?"},{"start":1553.482,"end":1569.25,"text":"是不是能夠讓我們2025可以而且我再說一下尤其是太陽能光店我有看過臺電的就是太陽能光店的發展跟一般就是民間的太陽能光店的發展"},{"start":1569.89,"end":1598.735,"text":"其實為什麼民眾對於光電業的發展認為需要做部分的檢討那就是在法令限制的模糊的空間裡面第一個我們有沒有辦法提高太陽能光電的效率嗎即便我們要再生能源我們也希望說技術進步可以促進光電發電的效率嗎在既有的就是設施上面我們有沒有辦法提高光電的發電效率以及"},{"start":1599.275,"end":1603.739,"text":"所以在法令上面有沒有可能在520之前你們做一個檢討在法規上面做改變"},{"start":1618.314,"end":1640.563,"text":"委員我聽不太懂這個退縮的機制是什麼?我是說就是不是他在一塊地裡面例如他比較接近民宅或者是接近因為有時候接近民宅他是可以設置光電的那這個部分你要不要做退縮的機制?有有這個然後這個這要修改法令對不對?"},{"start":1641.923,"end":1656.588,"text":"其實是我們的規範,不需要到法律的部分。然後這個部分是不是必須要做一個,然後發電的太陽能板也有非常多種。那未來比較高發電效率的太陽能板是什麼?"},{"start":1657.168,"end":1684.774,"text":"那未來是不是大家應該要採取高就是說高效率的發展的就是高效率發電量的太陽能板這都是需要做一個進一步的檢討不然以目前臺灣剩餘的土地有沒有辦法就是說全面性的發展然後你全面性的發展以外對於民眾而言他們會不會覺得受到困擾因為太陽能板在旁邊很熱嘛很亮嘛"},{"start":1685.394,"end":1699.339,"text":"這都是一種嫌惡的設施嘛那民眾會這也會影響到民眾居住的品質你不要笑啊太陽能板是邪惡的設施這樣的講法嫌惡啦嫌惡嫌惡"},{"start":1701.038,"end":1727.435,"text":"你被人家嫌、被人家討厭嘛。你的意思是這樣嗎?太陽能板被人家嫌惡的措施這樣的講法我想跟一般的理解是不太一樣可是我完全尊重委員講法確實太陽能發電的技術一直在進步我同意你的想法就是說如果有更好的技術我們當然要採用啊這個我完全同意然後呢不要讓民眾覺得嫌惡"},{"start":1731.901,"end":1744.7,"text":"所以兩個部分一個就是如果這個太陽能面板離居住的地方很近了目前我們有規範它四周一定要退縮然後用綠帶來隔離那不要造成這個附近"},{"start":1744.94,"end":1762.381,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":1762.381,"end":1779.036,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":1779.136,"end":1807.975,"text":"那如果今年的產業的景氣就你們預估還是有可能是往上然後需求增加那用電量增加的情況下那你們緊急用電會不會用到核電這個我們都有準備所以就是說第一個我們當然要發展再生能源第二個我們都會在前一年就會針對比如說今年的話我們前一年就在盤點今年可能的用電的情形那你們自己要不要修核子能反應設施管制法"},{"start":1808.676,"end":1811.007,"text":"就是我們的核電廠研議的條例。"},{"start":1861.528,"end":1868.365,"text":"謝謝謝委員依奉的質詢。謝謝陳院長的答詢。接下來我們請林委員國臣"}]}},{"id":"149149","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149149","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e968100611a08e17dfd0c04c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a61bf4d436f2ad96565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"14:30:26 - 14:46:33","影片長度":"00:16:07","會議時間":"2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-27","duration":967,"end_time":"2024-02-27T14:46:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-27T14:30:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（14時30分）謝謝院長。有請行政院長及交通部王部長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：徐委員，午安，恭喜你當選立法委員，真是恭喜。"],["徐委員富癸：謝謝院長。本席來自國境之南的屏東，院長與部長也常到屏東洽公。請問屏東遠不遠？請教院長與部長。"],["陳院長建仁：有夠遠！"],["徐委員富癸：很遠。"],["陳院長建仁：我們旗山已經很遠了。"],["徐委員富癸：不管是潘前縣長到周春米縣長，我們長期針對屏東交通建設這一塊，真的要請行政院與交通部大力幫忙。我認為屏東不應該是「站尾包衰」，所以我們提出交通平權，希望行政院能把屏東的交通建設列為重點建設項目。下一屆的賴清德總統過去到屏東時常常說的一句話就是，要區域的經濟發展。區域的經濟發展最重要的要件、最需要解決的就是交通問題……"],["陳院長建仁：沒錯。"],["徐委員富癸：我想這點院長應該是認同的。"],["陳院長建仁：對，完全認同。"],["徐委員富癸：如果交通不解決，會連帶影響到我們整個經濟與農漁業發展，乃至醫療問題，所以本席這邊有幾項議題要請院長與部長答復。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["徐委員富癸：未來希望行政院與交通部能和屏東縣政府，共同為了屏東的建設來努力。首先請教院長，我們叫「屏南快速道路」為救命路，而交通部已經在去年底將這條屏南快速道路的可行性評估報到院裡面審查。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["徐委員富癸：請教院長相關計畫與期程，目前進度如何？"],["陳院長建仁：因為可行性評估已經送到院方來，我們現在請國發會做審議工作。如果可行性評估核定後，就會繼續接著辦綜合規劃、環評及施工作業。順利的話，可能在126年時完工通車。"],["徐委員富癸：院長，每次本席聽到交通規劃的時間及完工的時間……"],["陳院長建仁：都比較長……"],["徐委員富癸：都要很長，聽了實在是……這不是本席的問題，而是鄉親有期待，所以會覺得為什麼屏東要一條交通建設這麼困難？"],["陳院長建仁：向委員報告，未來如果要做綜合規劃、環評與施工，需要中央與地方合作，看能不能縮減期程。但現在的規劃是按照過去的環評等等時程在做，所以大家努力打拼，看能不能縮短時程，越早越好。"],["徐委員富癸：本席希望院長能裁示，請交通部針對相關的環評等期程同步進行，不要一個階段後再做一個階段，這樣時間真的會拉得很長。是不是能這樣……"],["陳院長建仁：就這部分來說，不管國發會或交通部都很重視時程。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，交通部已經在1月31日時送來我們這邊，沒有錯，我們會儘快覆核，因為大概已經都同意了，金額也算出來了。如果第一階段的話大概要一千三百多億，所以這條路就要一千三百多億，我們已經核定了，很快就會……"],["徐委員富癸：我再請教一下主委跟部長，我們有沒有可能採分段施工、分段進行的方式來加快期程及進行？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，我們第一階段是到楓港，第二階段到恆春，楓港的部分就是我們現在第一階段先積極來進行，因為那邊是台9跟台1的分界，而且是比較塞的路段。剛才談到從現在開始6年做二階環評跟綜合規劃，當然這裡面也有算到二階環評的時間，你也知道這條路沿路的環評敏感度我們可能要去突破。另外就是用地取得2年，其實真正施工期只有5年而已，前面都是前置作業。但剛剛院長有特別提到，我們能縮短就會儘量把它縮短，所以這部分我們會全力讓它……"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我想是這樣子啦，當然就我們鄉親的期待值來講，每個人聽到環評的時間或是施工的期間……"],["王部長國材：我們會加強，我們會加油。"],["徐委員富癸：真的大家聽到後都搖頭啦，所以這個要特別拜託部裡面跟院長，是不是能夠請相關部會加快速度，這個真的一定要做，我們的救命路要拜託院長這邊大力地來幫忙。"],["陳院長建仁：我們會盡全力，讓各部會一齊來努力。"],["徐委員富癸：好，我想這部分再麻煩一下，時間點能不要聽到126年，這樣真的是很久、很久啦！"],["陳院長建仁：很久。"],["徐委員富癸：第二個部分我要請教的是有關高雄捷運延伸到屏東的部分，我想這條路線我們屏東鄉親也期待20年了，目前有規劃了幾條路線，這幾條路線在110年7月份交通部這邊有一部分有做核備，我想請部長說明一下小港、東港、林邊線及其他路線到目前的進度。"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，目前就是高雄紅線現在延伸到林園，我們現在從林園到大鵬灣然後繼續往東港這邊來走，目前是在做可行性，因為過去有段時間是在談紅線的延伸，但是後來縣政府跟市政府的討論是覺得那一段是另外一個系統，所以未來在林園會有轉乘，有關轉乘的部分，委員也知道，同月台轉乘是很方便的，所以也沒什麼感覺。目前我們估算的時間，如果從現在開始應該也是10年的時間，因為裡面也一樣，現在來就是綜合規劃、環評，包括用地取得和施工，大概也要10年的時間，現在……"],["徐委員富癸：請教部長，我們鄉親比較關心的是會一車到底嗎？"],["王部長國材：目前是沒有一車到底，剛才有談到，會在林園做個轉乘，但是我們現在的捷運都會儘量做到在同月台轉乘，意思是這班車到了，另外一邊的車也到了，就是走過來而已，大概類似這樣。"],["陳院長建仁：我也跟委員報告一下，雖然沒有一車到底，但是轉乘如果很方便的話是沒感覺的，另外很重要的是說，這樣未來還有延伸其他地方的可能性。"],["王部長國材：是的。"],["徐委員富癸：我再請教院長，除了小港到東港、林邊之外，我們另外還有一個大寮、萬丹潮州線，還有大寮屏東線跟左營到屏東線，這三條的進度是否也請部長說明一下？"],["王部長國材：這個部分在屏東縣政府的整體路網裡面有放進去，但是個別路線還沒有送到交通部，它在整體路網裡面有這幾條路線，現在就是縣政府看哪個優先然後送進來，目前他們是以延伸到大鵬灣這條當成優先路線，後面縣政府如果再送進來，我們就會來處理，我們會儘量來協助。"],["徐委員富癸：這個也是要麻煩部長，如果我們縣政府把相關計畫送進來，也請你們加快時程審查……"],["王部長國材：好，這個可以……"],["徐委員富癸：因為這些都是鄉親非常期待的交通建設。"],["王部長國材：瞭解。"],["徐委員富癸：所以要特別拜託院長跟部長。"],["陳院長建仁：好，現在就只有高雄捷運藍線延伸有送進來，剩下這三條就要等縣府弄好，做好可行性研究，然後送過來，送來之前如果有需要，我也會請交通部給予指導，看要如何去做比較好。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝院長跟部長。","我想最重要的就是這個，我印象最深刻，我們潘孟安前縣長在2005年當選立委，到立法院第一件事情就是質詢高鐵議題，到現在經過十幾年了，只聞樓梯響，不見車過來。我請教院長跟部長，現在高鐵南延屏東的進度到底如何？"],["王部長國材：現在正在做環評跟綜合規劃，現在大概整個路線都已經確定了，是到六塊厝，六塊厝現在在行政院這邊也把它做成一個特定區，你看六塊厝那邊也已經開始有一些建設在做了，大概端點就是到六塊厝。目前就是按照行程，應該是……."],["徐委員富癸：但是本席很納悶的是，好像最近幾年每隔一段時間就會聽到媒體有一些關於路線也好、關於我們部裡面有一些雜音也好，都有這樣的報導陸續出現，請問我們的路線現在到底定案了沒有？"],["王部長國材：目前可行性已經定案了，不進入高雄市區，當然前一陣子也有高雄立委提到可不可以考慮進到市區，比如說從左營到高雄、鳳山到屏東這樣，但問題是進入高雄市區會牽涉到鐵路地下化後二次施工的問題，所以我有跟高雄的立委談到這個必須在地方取得共識才有辦法。目前如果還沒有取得共識，我們現在繼續走的就是不經過市區，直接繞、直接到六塊厝……"],["徐委員富癸：所以原本的左營案又有變化就是了？"],["王部長國材：他們有在提這個課題，因為他們也是在這裡質詢，上一次的質詢……"],["陳院長建仁：有這樣的建議啦！"],["王部長國材：對，有這個建議，我是說這個要想清楚，當然屏東不會變，屏東車站的部分，不管路線是不是要進入市區都會到六塊厝，都不會變。"],["陳院長建仁：都會到六塊厝啦，現在就是要繞到哪裡去而已，但是如果要繞到市區……"],["徐委員富癸：我還是要提醒啦，2019年交通部對外宣布我們要在2029年通車，這個目標我看如果到目前為止都沒動工的話就不可能完成吧？"],["王部長國材：現在目標也是朝這方面來進行。"],["徐委員富癸：2029？"],["王部長國材：因為它已經到環評的尾端，已經做一陣子了。"],["陳院長建仁：環境影響評估完成後再繼續。"],["徐委員富癸：好，另外一個我們鄉親也很關心的部分是，除了到六塊厝之外，有沒有可能南延到潮州？因為蘇貞昌前院長來屏東的時候有提過，包括賴總統也有提過這個部分，我們鄉親也很關心這個部分，是不是有做這樣的規劃？"],["王部長國材：其實委員這張圖畫的很正確，一旦進入屏東就出不來了，必須要拆一堆房子才能出來，所以設在六塊厝當時就是預留往南延的空間，的確你這個圖是很正確的，就是不進入市區，準備南延，留下彈性。"],["徐委員富癸：因為不到潮州的話，未來我們要連接到東部會困難重重，所以這個部分還是要請院長跟部長，我們努力的目標是2029年，這個部分要趕快定案、趕快動工。"],["陳院長建仁：對，現在就是六塊厝這裡先做，屏東到潮州這一段到底要怎麼走有很多的討論，你看高鐵很多都閃過鄉鎮的地方，像是臺南也好，都不要經過中心區，這就必須由我們縣政府和鄉、鎮長、地方的「頭人」去共同討論，看怎麼樣比較好。其實我也希望縣府有相關的想法或是委員有相關的建議，想好要怎麼進行，如果地方意見能夠一致，當然就會比較快啦。"],["徐委員富癸：這個還是要特別請院長跟部長幫忙，我覺得我們一段時間就應該要有進度出來，要給鄉親一個交代，不然大家都望眼欲穿，等不到好的結果。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝委員很認真的在推動，不論是屏東的道路也好，或是軌道建設也好，都很認真。我們當然就像你剛才所說的，臺灣每個縣市的交通建設都是要中央和地方大家一齊共同打拚，尤其最重要的是能有委員的支持，這樣就比較有可能性，也會比較快。"],["徐委員富癸：謝謝院長，我想院長對屏東也很熟悉，這真的是我們屏南鄉親所有人的期待，就是我們屏南的交通建設。整個屏東縣的交通建設若沒有把任督二脈打通，真的屏東的發展永遠都是「站尾包衰」，這部分真的請院長多幫忙。","因為時間的關係，針對大鵬灣未來的開發還有墾丁國家公園計畫「五通」的問題，這部分也要特別請交通部的王部長還有內政部的林部長，針對相關大鵬灣的開發跟墾管處所面臨一些民怨的問題，是不是可以趕緊加快速度？尤其大鵬灣的部分，就是一些所謂的公共基礎建設速度拖延，很多鄉親都在反映，從2019年臺灣燈會結束之後就任其「拋荒」；墾管處的問題就是所謂的部落劃出國家公園範圍的議題，當然這部分也有正反兩面的意見，這部分也要請內政部加快「五通」的速度，可以讓這些問題趕快解決，不要讓百姓在那邊怨天載道，然後埋怨說我們的政府都毫無作為。"],["陳院長建仁：這件事情因為時間的關係，我再請我們王部長和林部長有機會再跟……"],["徐委員富癸：再麻煩給本席一個完整的書面答復，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。多謝。"],["徐委員富癸：謝謝院長。謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來請謝委員衣鳯質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳秉叡","丁學忠","黃珊珊","林岱樺","陳雪生","張啓楷","徐富癸","謝衣鳯","林國成","蔡其昌","萬美玲","黃秀芳","呂玉玲"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2024-02-27"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00011","1130401_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130401_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21.512843750000002,"end":26.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27.33471875,"end":28.836593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.81096875,"end":31.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.13971875,"end":33.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.15659375,"end":37.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":37.12221875,"end":37.712843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":37.72971875,"end":37.932218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.932218750000004,"end":37.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":40.41284375,"end":47.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.10846875,"end":44.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.73284375,"end":44.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":48.42846875,"end":75.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.63034375,"end":53.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.73784375000001,"end":66.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.24784375,"end":70.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":75.19221875000001,"end":77.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":77.87534375,"end":78.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":78.90471875,"end":80.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":80.30534375,"end":81.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":82.17846875000001,"end":85.90784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":86.09346875,"end":88.06784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":88.37159375,"end":89.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":89.38409375,"end":91.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":91.44284375000001,"end":106.78221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.16659375,"end":104.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.78221875000001,"end":107.00159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":107.00159375000001,"end":133.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.05221875000001,"end":107.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.74721875,"end":115.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.11846875,"end":115.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.88971875000001,"end":121.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":133.56284375,"end":135.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":135.62159375000002,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.06409375,"end":139.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.70846875,"end":147.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.02409375000002,"end":176.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.08346875,"end":177.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":177.70784375000002,"end":180.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.75846875000002,"end":177.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":180.42471875,"end":196.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.01721875,"end":196.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":196.03409375,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.02971875,"end":223.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":223.96221875,"end":241.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.02284375000002,"end":242.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":241.44471875000002,"end":241.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":242.27159375000002,"end":242.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.32221875000002,"end":247.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.80659375000002,"end":255.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.63659375,"end":259.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.91034375000004,"end":259.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.14221875000004,"end":270.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.46596875,"end":267.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":267.48284375000003,"end":268.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.19159375000004,"end":268.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.77346875,"end":272.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":271.39784375,"end":279.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.43034375,"end":283.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.45909375,"end":289.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.15034375,"end":293.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.17534375,"end":292.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.10346875,"end":292.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.01034375,"end":298.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.1234687500000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d":787.494,"text":"對,當然現在就是六個主席一定會選擇,民眾到中心這裏到底要怎麼做,這有很多討論,你看有很多個體都想過這個鄉庭的地方,像台南也好,"},{"start":799.204,"end":800.865,"text":"徐富癸徐富癸徐富癸"},{"start":824.36,"end":824.54,"text":"委員徐富癸"},{"start":847.955,"end":860.018,"text":"謝謝院長,因為我想院長對屏東也很熟悉,這真的是我們平安相信所有人的期待我們的平安的交通建設,屏東的交通建設,而不把任督而賣打通真的屏東的發展,永遠都是站不住的保水,這部分真的請院長多幫忙。"},{"start":876.772,"end":905.892,"text":"那因為時間關係那針對大鵬灣的未來的開發還有我們墾丁國家公園的建設武通的問題那我想這部分也要特別請我們交通部的王部長還有我們內政部的林部長針對這個相關大鵬灣的開發跟坑管處所面臨一些民怨的問題是不是可以來近來加快速度尤其大鵬灣的部分就是所謂的一些公共基礎的建設速度拖延"},{"start":906.308,"end":906.448,"text":"﹚徐富癸﹚"},{"start":929.603,"end":931.944,"text":"謝謝徐委員的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請謝委員依奉質詢。"}]}},{"id":"149148","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149148","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e96810a8dd6ea199249cd64c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a6f2397eb0f42835a15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:13:47 - 11:45:22","影片長度":"00:31:35","會議時間":"2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-27","duration":1895,"end_time":"2024-02-27T11:45:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-27T11:13:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":742,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時14分）謝謝韓院長，請陳院長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：張委員早，恭喜張委員當選立委。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，不曉得是不是該恭喜你，今天最新的新聞說賴清德總統當選人問他的幕僚說想把你留下來。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這回事。"],["張委員啓楷：你本來要回中研院的，你會考慮520之後繼續留下來當行政院長嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：您也跟我很熟啦！學術研究一向是我的最愛，我會回到中研院重拾我的學術研究。"],["張委員啓楷：什麼狀況下有可能會留下來？沒有任何可能嗎？你確定是要回中研院？"],["陳院長建仁：當然。"],["張委員啓楷：包括賴清德來拜託你都不會留下來？"],["陳院長建仁：對我來說，我已經離開學術一段時間，我應該回去。"],["張委員啓楷：新聞裡面提到可能要拜託蔡英文蔡總統開口，所以包括蔡英文蔡總統開口，你都不會在520之後留下來當行政院長？"],["陳院長建仁：當時蔡總統邀請我當行政院長的時候，就是講好到520，陪他一起同進退。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，那我們就看看後續的狀況會是怎麼樣，我們進入總質詢。院長還記得這一幕嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：記得，謝謝你。"],["張委員啓楷：這是你那時候當副總統的時候，我邀請你到我的節目「新聞追追追」。"],["陳院長建仁：是，很好的節目。"],["張委員啓楷：我們那時候在討論年金改革，今天為什麼要有這一幕呢？因為那時候的陳建仁被稱為溫暖的大仁哥……"],["陳院長建仁：我希望我現在也是。"],["張委員啓楷：我們現在強調要溫暖、要溝通而且要傾聽，可是院長你有發現最近油電雙漲對人民的衝擊是很大的嗎？你會不會擔心溫暖的大仁哥變成是一位漲價的院長？這會不會是你最後的歷史定位？"],["陳院長建仁：我想我不會是漲價的院長，我一向是願意傾聽、願意溝通、願意協調，但我覺得如果在上個禮拜有些委員講的實在是不符合常理的時候，我也應該要表達我個人對於這些不符合、特別是科學證據的一些回應，我覺得科學是不容打折扣的，這個很重要，而且我們論證的時候一定要講道理、講科學根據……"],["張委員啓楷：院長你的意思是水跟電是確定要漲了嗎？你任內520之前你要……包括你的歷史定位變成是漲價的院長，你都一定要戴著鋼盔往前衝嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想電費的部分其實是還滿明確的，因為俄烏戰爭的關係，所有的燃料都上升，所以現在台電是賣一度電就賠一度電，在這樣的情況下，為了要確保我們的經濟成長、為了確保我們民生用電無虞，我們確實是在評估當中，很重要的一件事情我也想跟委員報告，台電以往為了要穩定物價，漲價的幅度都低於全世界大部分的國家，所以台電有滿大的虧損，有三千多億的虧損，我們應該要……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，抱歉我提醒你一下，現在是漲電價的好時機嗎？主計總處上個禮拜剛剛宣布，我們實質總薪資創11年來縮幅最大，民間現在反對的聲音非常的大，特別是會帶動物價，你有沒有考慮過這件事情？"],["陳院長建仁：我們有做過評估，如果政府有挹注再加上漲部分電價的話，這樣台電才能有比較合理的未來發展，所以在這一個部分還是請電價審議委員會來就全盤的情況做評估，在上個……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，我先提醒你一件事情，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["張委員啓楷：2012年的時候，馬英九那時候提了油電雙漲，你應該有印象？"],["陳院長建仁：我記得。"],["張委員啓楷：我提醒你是有兩個因素，第一個，他在非洲訪問，記者問他的時候他特別講戴著鋼盔也要往前衝，他的心境看起來跟你是有點像的；第二個，我更要提醒你，馬英九從非洲回來以後他發現完全不對了，不只民調掉到13%，像他是有做了某些改進，包括他去跟民間電廠談，那個利息、利率本來是8%，都降到2%了，可是因為物價已經上去了，民怨很深，你要不要好好再思考一下？"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分我們會讓經濟部還有我們電價的審議委員會來討論。"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：我先請教一下部長……"],["陳院長建仁：我們請部長。"],["王部長美花：因為在過往……"],["張委員啓楷：我看這幾天你的講話，看起來是要漲，而且幅度是不小，那我要提醒一個點，台電虧損，台電以前是金雞母喔！是誰把它搞壞了？台電現在這個虧損要人民來補嗎？要剝人民幾層皮呢？是不是應該回過頭，先去把台電的虧損原因弄清楚？不是急著要漲價。"],["王部長美花：其實我們這個都有做非常詳細的評估，俄烏戰爭到現在，我相信委員也非常清楚，很多歐美國家他們電費漲的幅度是非常、非常高，台電一直吸收這2、3年來的電費，確實讓台電的財務到現在看起來，如果讓它正常的運作會有困難，這個就是我們現在的情形。當然俄烏戰爭之後，燃料成本有一些下降，但是仍舊比戰爭之前高，這個是現實的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們先看一下這個圖，你一直在強調戰爭跟國際因素造成的影響，第二條線就是你一直在強調的燃料成本，對不對？這是你們台電跟經濟部的決算書裡面的資料，燃料成本在什麼時候開始往下走？民國111年是不是就慢慢往下走了？"],["王部長美花：沒有，整個我們看起來，2022、2023的燃料成本其實是差不多的，主要是在2022的時候，其實中油還有吸收很大一部分。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，請看這個趨勢圖，台電有兩個很重要的支出，一個是燃料成本，一個就是買電，對不對？第二條線，中間黃色的線，在民國110年到111年確實是往上走的一個最高峰，可是在111年的時候它就停住了，往下走囉！不是像你講的一直在往上走，這是第一個點。第二點，我更要請教你的，當你的燃料成本往下降，特別是燃煤，國際的燃煤已經往下掉的時候，下面台電去買電，是不是應該跟著往下降？因為它也用到天然氣、用到煤，是不是這樣？"],["王部長美花：沒有錯，但是因為我們有天然氣跟燃煤兩個，所以我們整個看2022跟2023，2022其實前半年的天然氣，中油沒有完全反映給台電，所以如果就台電的購電成本來講的話，2022跟2023是差不多的，但是……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，抱歉……"],["王部長美花：這裡講的是四千多，我的理解應該是6,000億左右。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，抱歉，這是你們的決算書喔！我要提醒一個點，這個是非常清楚的，當燃料成本慢慢往下掉的時候，你有沒有發現非常奇怪，為什麼台電去買電是往上走的？為什麼？"],["王部長美花：我們如果……"],["張委員啓楷：請問部長跟院長。"],["王部長美花：沒有錯，台電的買電部分，當然有一部分是買綠電，買綠電從2022的五百多億到2023年的900億，是沒有錯，有增加，但是發展綠電也是臺灣一定要去走的路，前面這幾年臺灣就綠電的環境，用躉購費率等等來讓整個綠色的產業能夠發展起來，現在慢慢的，特別委員也知道，離岸風電已經全部都是直接用民間來購電了；太陽光電逐漸不用躉購費率，而賣給民間的占比，從今年大家也會看到越來越多。"],["張委員啓楷：所以部長，你剛才回答就印證了兩件事情，第一個，聽你每次都講國際因素，事實上這個不是那麼重要的，對不對？"],["王部長美花：不對……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個更重要……"],["王部長美花：國際因素還是最大。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個更重要、第二個更重要，當它影響沒有很大的時候、往下掉的時候，為什麼會往上走？是不是買了太多，甚至是太貴的電？我給你看一個數目字，好不好？同樣做太陽能，台電本身也有太陽能，對不對？"],["王部長美花：有，台電也有。"],["張委員啓楷：台電一度是多少？3.36，那為什麼你去買太陽能的時候買到4.86呢？當然可能要給一定的利潤，是沒有錯的，可是會不會給的太高？更嚴重的是什麼？是弊案頻傳，為什麼有那麼多弊案？光是跟光電有關的弊案那麼多。院長一直搖頭，上個禮拜，臺南的88槍光電這個案子，那個主嫌紅龜仔才判了10年，前2年光是跟光電有關的至少起訴了60件。所以它有兩個問題，一個是為什麼那麼好賺？台電虧損那麼多，還要拿我們的錢去補，可是只要台電去買的，都買得那麼貴，而且發生弊案呢？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，事實上，躉購費率裡面有非常多的專家，我們用非常精確的成本來算，當然它有一點利潤，但是你不能說它是暴利。台電自己發的太陽能成本比較低，因為台電是用自己的土地來做太陽能。"],["張委員啓楷：這個我瞭解，可是會不會太高了？為什麼會發生弊案？為什麼一段時間會出現很多光電的……"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：這個是不是應該……院長，我們現在要漲人民的錢，要漲電價，結果人民現在看到的是什麼？台電去買的電太貴了，你看看最近的新聞，光是過年那些光電公司發的年終獎金、它的紅利，當台電這麼辛苦的時候，台電以前是一個很好的公司，體質很好的公司，是一個金雞母耶！當它要跟人民拿這麼多錢的時候，它去買電又買這麼貴，人民會怎麼想這個事情？"],["陳院長建仁：我想……"],["張委員啓楷：所以我的結論是，要不要先去把台電買電這個事情弄清楚才去談漲價的事情？如果你內部沒有改革，憑什麼去漲人民的價錢。"],["陳院長建仁：在所有的電價審議委員會討論的過程當中，我們當然也會就台電的支出部分，包括購電的部分、發電的部分做通盤的檢討，讓審議委員會來瞭解，但是剛才講的這些風力也好，太陽能也好，這個發電出來的東西，都是因為有躉售電價的關係才會比較高。當時會有這樣的決定，也是為了要讓國外的電廠，還有國內的電廠願意來投資綠電的發展。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：另外，我再補充一下。實際上綠電占的成本，以目前來看的話，大概是占10%，所以相對於整個電價來看，所有的電還是都來自於燃氣跟燃煤的占比比較多，這個我要跟委員報告一下。"],["張委員啓楷：院長跟部長，你們有一個真相沒有跟我們全民講，沒有跟我們臺灣人民講。第一個，最近的這個價格還是繼續往上走，對不對？買綠電的錢，現在進入高峰期，所以不只今年要錢、有虧損，明年、後年、大後年，至少未來5年在再生能源這一塊虧損會更大，對不對？這是第一個點。第二個，到目前沒有看到你們有解決方案啊，你們現在談的是什麼？2025要增加到20%，現在這個時間才10%、9.9%，虧損已經這麼大，你們要跟人民講清楚，人民這次給了你錢，漲了電價，或者給了補貼之後，未來5年漏洞會更大，要不要跟人民講清楚？"],["王部長美花：事實上，發展再生能源，臺灣已經走得很慢了，發展再生能源的時候，相關的這個部分，臺灣當然要去支持再生能源的產業，但是我剛才講了，現在已經越來越多都已經直接賣給民間的企業，不是用躉購費率的部分。這個部分，台電在維持的時候有穩定，但是也會一直讓它稀釋出去賣給民間，所以我想委員不應該是說再生能源要走回頭路啦！這個臺灣還是該要走了，臺灣已經是比較慢了。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有錯、沒有錯，再生能源，院長跟部長講的我完全贊成。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我們支持再生能源，可是我們反對買太貴、給太多錢，特別是在台電虧損這麼嚴重的時候。第二個，弊端頻傳，所以我們很明確地要求，你們要我支持，我是支持的，可是要做這兩件事情：不要再買太貴，好不好？第二個，弊端一定要查清楚。"],["王部長美花：有、有，所以弊案的情形，事實上現在委員看到的確實都是過去發生的一些案子，檢調已經來協調了，所以現在看起來的情形，目前就有比較正常的發展。"],["張委員啓楷：好，來，我們再看，台電最主要是兩個：一個是外面買電，對不對？另外一個，看買了什麼電。我們再看民間電廠，民間電廠是在李登輝當總統的時候，本來要把台電民營化，後來為什麼去買電？包括9家民營電廠，就是為了效率、為了把價格降低嘛。結果你從這條線看得出來，我們買的電都還是太貴，要給一定的利潤，業界認為多少利潤是合理的？10%以內，可是我們買的都太貴了，這是一個點。","第二個，請大家看一下這個表。院長，看這個表，台電本身也用燃煤，它一度是多少錢？3.57，到了112年的時候降到3.43，台電的燃煤成本是降低的，可是台電去跟民間電廠買電的時候是3.69，不只沒有降，為什麼攀升到4.15？"],["王部長美花：這個……"],["張委員啓楷：我們自己的燃煤降了，國際的趨勢也是降了，台電自發的成本也是降了，請跟我講清楚，為什麼我們去跟民間電廠買的反而是往上走？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，這個其實都有非常專業的算計啦！我們也不會說莫名其妙就給民間不應該給的費用，但是民間該有的利潤是有，可是絕對不會無緣無故給它增加，這個都有很細緻的一個算法，所以相關的怎麼算、相關的情形，如果委員要的話，我們也可以提供委員相關的資訊……"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！委員，我想我請……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，你是科學家，你數學很好的。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我想……"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼發生這個狀況？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我想怎麼樣去算出來這個價錢，經濟部一定有一套的算法，今天時間的關係，我們請經濟部在質詢完以後給你一個……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，大環境裡面燃煤在往下掉，對不對？第二個，如果就台電自己發電跟去買的，這是很簡單的一個比較啊！"],["陳院長建仁：對，但是剛才講過，我們要給……"],["張委員啓楷：台電自己自發的往下掉，結果去買的那麼貴。"],["陳院長建仁：其實我們都很清楚，委員你比我還清楚，當我們的發電量很大，跟民間發電量小的時候，那個成本其實不完全一樣嘛！對嘛？這個我想我們都可以瞭解，所以台電發電的價錢跟民間發電的價錢，這個都要專家去算，因為它的成本是不太一樣，我們也希望鼓勵民間來發電，所以這個部分的價錢真的是有精算的結果。"],["王部長美花：就是他們在算購入電力成本的時候，不會單單只有燃料成本啦！還有整個……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你能不能在一個禮拜內把為什麼會出現這樣的……"],["王部長美花：沒有問題。"],["陳院長建仁：對！對！我們把報告給你。"],["張委員啓楷：一個禮拜內給我，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["王部長美花：是，沒有問題。"],["張委員啓楷：我到委員會還是進一步要再追這個案子。"],["王部長美花：是，可以公開的一定都會提供給委員。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["張委員啓楷：好。我們再看另外一個，院長，你看所有的發電裡面哪個最便宜？"],["王部長美花：委員提的是……"],["陳院長建仁：核能啦！委員，但是這裡面還沒有包括核廢料處理的後段，還有退役、除役以後的經費，實際上這裡都沒有算。"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你講，至少現在它是一個最便宜也是乾淨的嘛，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：但是不能夠債留子孫喔！"],["張委員啓楷：我還幫你試算了一下，因為你一直在發展再生能源，我說再生能源我們是支持的，可是不要發生弊案，不要買太貴，這是一個最重要的原則。"],["陳院長建仁：我也同意。"],["張委員啓楷：相對的，既然有很便宜的電，核能一度電成本才1.39，你現在不是在講虧損嗎？如果用核能的話，你可以賺錢耶！"],["陳院長建仁：但是……"],["張委員啓楷：每發一度核能的電，你是賺錢的，為什麼要把它停下來呢？我再幫你試算一個……"],["王部長美花：它不是停下來……"],["張委員啓楷：試算一個更恐怖……"],["王部長美花：它的執照期間就是40年。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我給你一個更恐怖的數字，好不好？這段時間你去買再生能源，如果用最便宜的核能去算，多花了582億，你現在還要把核電慢慢……今年核三廠可能就要除役了，對不對？就表示明年……"],["陳院長建仁：委員……"],["張委員啓楷：我覺得院長跟部長你們有責任跟民眾講清楚，台電不只是去年虧損嚴重……"],["王部長美花：跟委員……"],["張委員啓楷：今年也虧損嚴重，在你們能源政策之下，明年、後年、大後年，一直到至少未來的5年，因為核能變成零，虧損會越來越大，怎麼辦？這個真相應該跟臺灣人民講清楚吧！"],["陳院長建仁：好，委員，核一、核二、核三當時在建設的時候，就已經講好說它的服役期間有多長，現在我們會讓它除役就是因為時間已經到了，40年到了嘛！所以我們就是除役，這是很早以前就訂定下來的規定。委員講的是說核能很好，可是這裡面剛才講的核廢料處理是未來的成本，還有除役時成本很高。另外一個很重要的就是在未來的這幾年，如果我們……貴黨有提到說核能要延役，那如果核能要延役、即使要延役的話，不是說今天到期的時候我說延役就可以繼續發電，不可以的喔！還必須要有2到4年的時間才能夠來繼續發電，這是按照安全的規定嘛！而且核能現在在臺灣發電的占比是相當的低啦，所以它對電價的影響度，還是沒有我們所謂的燃氣、燃煤的影響大，因為它占了百分之九十左右嘛……"],["王部長美花：八十。"],["陳院長建仁：所以這樣子看起來，整個電價未來的結構都一定是受到國際燃料的影響。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，你聽過一句話吧？「錯誤的政策比貪污更可怕」，我不能講你一定完全是錯誤的，至少眼睜睜的，我覺得院長跟部長今天有責任要跟我們臺灣的民眾講清楚。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們會講清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：因為你現在要漲電價，人民已經被你剝好幾層皮了……"],["陳院長建仁：是，講清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：因為現在如果物價漲、電價又漲，很多人是很苦的。"],["陳院長建仁：今年的物價……"],["張委員啓楷：今天院長坐在上面，院長的名言是什麼？「莫忘世上苦人多」對不對？院長又要這樣講……"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：漲完電價之後，特別是民生又更苦，這是一個點……"],["王部長美花：就是因為……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，就是因為大家很苦的同時你們又要漲，我剛才講過了，你要跟民間電廠買就要透明公開，對不對？"],["王部長美花：這個沒有問題，是。"],["張委員啓楷：然後第二個太陽能跟再生能源，你也是要清楚。第三個，明明有一個可以省錢的，你為什麼要這樣做？"],["王部長美花：沒有，因為……"],["張委員啓楷：而且你剛剛提的，我講個重點……"],["陳院長建仁：這是by law啊！"],["張委員啓楷：國民黨跟民眾黨都贊成核二、核三延役……"],["陳院長建仁：對，但是依法……"],["張委員啓楷：我們主席柯文哲講清楚了，他們體檢核四如果可以用的時候，可以再用核能啊！為什麼兩個黨都認為它是安全的、可以省錢的，而民進黨就堅持一定要把它廢掉呢？不能延役呢？"],["陳院長建仁：我們現在核能廠除役是依法規定的嘛！40年到了，就是要除役嘛！好，現在假設就像您講的一樣，就是不除役、要延役的話，我們是不是要有延役法律的依據嘛，對不對？"],["張委員啓楷：對，我們都在提法啦！有啦！民眾黨也提了、國民黨也提了……"],["陳院長建仁：好，對，提法……"],["張委員啓楷：現在三黨不過半，新的國會可能就會過了。"],["陳院長建仁：對，對，那提了以後呢？我還是要強調核安的部分啦！就是說到了40年以後，它要繼續發電是需要有安全檢查，國外的經驗，大概都是2到5年的時間啦，大部分都是5年啦，所以為什麼5年前就要申請延役？5年前申請延役的時間，就是為了要這5年的期間來做安全檢查，讓它截止的那1天可以繼續發電……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，你講的依法這個當然一定不會違背嘛！所以包括國民黨、包括民眾黨都已經在提案子了嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對、對，我們……"],["張委員啓楷：對不對？這個我們要共同努力。我今天的質詢重點是窟窿這麼大，你們要跟大家講，未來的窟窿會更大……"],["陳院長建仁：會，我們會跟大家說明清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：大家準備好過苦日子嗎？溫暖的院長能不能多給大家一些溫暖，幫人民解決問題？"],["陳院長建仁：我們一定會在考量所有電價的時候，跟以前你講的前總統在調電價的時候，是不一樣的。因為我們歷次，你看我們調電價的時候，都會考慮到民生用電、大小商店的用電，還有不同產業用電，以及產業是在上升的、是狀況好的、還是下降的，我們都會很仔細的來決定電價的調整。原因就是讓產業能夠繼續永續、讓民生不會受到影響，這就是我們在調電價的時候，希望我們的審議委員會做很精緻的調整，這是我們會努力來做。委員你講的，要講清楚，要讓老百姓知道，這是一定的……"],["張委員啓楷：對，一定的。"],["陳院長建仁：讓大家一定要瞭解，要不然我們一定是要戴鋼盔，但是我們就是要好好的跟大家說理，為什麼要這樣調，說明清楚了，大家也可以共體時艱嘛，這是我們要努力的。"],["張委員啓楷：好，所以部長跟院長，我提了3個可以讓電價不見得要漲的方案，你們聽完之後，到底有沒有可能這一次的要嘛就不要漲；要嘛至少讓民生不要漲，有沒有可能性？如果你照我剛剛那個改革，確實有很多錢是可以省下來的，應該從改革做起把成本降低，不是急著要讓人民被剝了好幾層皮啊！有沒有可能民生不要漲……"],["王部長美花：事實上……"],["張委員啓楷：330度以下不要漲，這可能性存不存在？"],["陳院長建仁：這個要專家委員會去評估啦！我們現在如果沒有數字，在這邊用嘴巴說，這樣不夠科學啦！要較科學的、較有基礎的說法，就是要有專家評估。"],["張委員啓楷：部長的說法，你是說用電大戶應該是會漲嘛，對不對？工業用電會漲嘛，你對民生用電，到底要不要漲？"],["王部長美花：第一個，確實台電這樣的虧損還是需要政府財源的挹注啦！第二個，電價我們會召開小組來討論，現在對民生的用電，確實我們很久很久都沒有漲……"],["張委員啓楷：已經20年，所以這次如果漲了，為什麼我剛才講的，你會變成「漲價院長」，20年沒有人敢調的，現在的物價上漲這麼嚴重……"],["王部長美花：不是，但是因為相關的……"],["張委員啓楷：現在政府要去調它嗎？"],["王部長美花：俄烏戰爭之後，整個電價的成本跟過往的電價成本不同，早期電價成本可能兩塊、兩塊多一點，但其實現在電價的成本差不多是4塊左右，這對我們已經長期影響，因為體恤一般的民眾，所以很久很久都沒有漲，這個我們會通盤去檢討。"],["張委員啓楷：通盤檢討，所以不漲的可能性存在嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：也有可能，我們會讓專家來討論啦！"],["張委員啓楷：不漲的可能性是不是存在？"],["王部長美花：我們會通盤來看這個相關情形。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你講的也是一個方案，這個方案怎樣做比較好，當然就要有數字嘛！數字要有討論，讓專家來討論可能比較適合啦！而不是我們今天在這裡沒有數據的依據來做。但是我在這裡要講，我們在調整電價的過程當中一定會考慮到怎麼樣讓民生用電的影響最小，而且不要影響到物價的上升，實際上主計總處有在估算電價調漲到什麼程度的時候不會影響物價。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝院長，請記得把我剛剛要的資料在一個禮拜內給我，第一個，跟民間電廠買太貴的部分；第二個，弊案怎麼去除跟整個公開透明。","我再請教一個跟經濟發展很有關係的問題，台積電要落腳到嘉義，這個到底會不會跳票？之前賴清德總統當選人到嘉義時，他說要全力去促成，你們兩位會幫忙嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想台積電到嘉義這件事情，我們會積極來努力，目前也已經有相關的部會或者是相關的這個……我們副院長也有去協調了，這部分我們樂觀其成。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：這個很重要。"],["張委員啓楷：部長也會幫忙對不對？"],["王部長美花：事實上台積電在臺灣包括先進的製程、先進的封裝等等，我們都會讓它在臺灣落腳，有時候相關的投資案會需要廠商來宣布比較好，但是對政府來講，它在哪裡、合適做什麼產業，我們都會跟產業界做詳細的溝通。"],["張委員啓楷：現在看起來，照它園區的規定，先進的封測廠是可以的，所以我們全力爭取，當然我知道主委有提到1吋晶圓現在可能有困難，可是環評我們還是會努力，謝謝院長跟部長的支持。","另外，我再問一個嘉義的事情，嘉義一直在爭取一個輕軌，從高鐵太保站進到嘉義市的輕軌，它的相關報告已經到院長那邊嘛，院長、行政院會支持這個輕軌嗎？這個載量是夠的對不對？超過5萬人了。"],["陳院長建仁：輕軌的部分確實已經在做相關的評估，這部分是不是給我們的交通部長來講一下，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：是，國材，你只要講你支持就好了，你不用再講了！"],["王部長國材：我們已經有撥了1,290萬，請他做可行性了。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王部長國材：所以基本上我們支持BRT轉輕軌這個方向，請嘉義市政府趕快提出相關報告。"],["陳院長建仁：對，不然我們如果再……"],["張委員啓楷：需要你們的幫忙，拜託一下。","另外，嘉義市鐵路高架化那筆錢，陳水扁總統到了嘉義市，清清楚楚跟我們嘉義人說的，那38億是中央要出的，結果現在叫嘉義市政府出，嘉義市1年的總預算還不到190億，結果你要他出38億，現在物價已經上來了，變成48.2億，這筆錢行政院或交通部可以幫忙嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：陳水扁總統那個時候答應的，因為時代的變遷，再加上我們已經有很多的不同，在蓋高架化的時候都有新的規範，所以這部分我請部長說明一下。"],["王部長國材：是，現在大概是這樣，原來的38億也是經過跟嘉義市政府討論的結果，現在多了10億，我們現在初步是因為嘉義的財政負擔，原來從三級現在降為四級，所以一個是補86%、一個補84%，現在初步就是以這個……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為總的預算增加……"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉、抱歉！國材，你說會幫忙多少？"],["王部長國材：就是2%可以討論，現在多2%都可以討論。"],["張委員啓楷：只有2%嗎？能不能再補助多一點？"],["王部長國材：因為我們必須全國有一樣的規則……"],["陳院長建仁：這是全國性的規定……"],["張委員啓楷：你說這是48.2億的2%？"],["王部長國材：不是，增加那10億的2%。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為總的增加，增加了95億。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以市政府只增加10億而已，其他的80幾億全部都由中央負擔。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦！我們再積極、再更多一點，好不好？謝謝，感謝。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以它負擔比較少……"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！我們絕對不會虧待嘉義。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝，感謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員啓楷的質詢，謝謝陳院長。","報告院會，上午質詢到此為止，本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理。","下午2點30分繼續開會，進行質詢。現在休息，謝謝。","休息（11時45分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳秉叡","丁學忠","黃珊珊","林岱樺","陳雪生","張啓楷","徐富癸","謝衣鳯","林國成","蔡其昌","萬美玲","黃秀芳","呂玉玲"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2024-02-27"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00011","1130401_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130401_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.43596875,"end":0.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.41971875,"end":51.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.360343750000006,"end":53.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.99721875,"end":55.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.40534375,"end":64.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.94909375,"end":68.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.06659375000001,"end":73.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.97284375000001,"end":75.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.69846875,"end":76.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.74909375,"end":75.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.54221875,"end":79.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.25471875000001,"end":81.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.94221875000001,"end":82.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.93784375,"end":90.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.64096875,"end":93.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.61971875,"end":93.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.63659375,"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2.926,"text":"但是這裡講的4千多,我的理解應該是6千億左右。部長抱歉,這是你們的結算書喔。我要提醒一個點,這個是非常清楚的。當燃料成本往下,慢慢往下掉的時候,你們會發現非常奇怪,為什麼台電去買電是往上走的?"},{"start":564.341,"end":574.691,"text":"為什麼我們如果沒有錯臺電的買電的部分當然有一部分是買綠電是買綠電那我買綠電呢從2022的500多億到2023年的900億是沒有錯有增加"},{"start":581.477,"end":604.13,"text":"但是發展綠電也是臺灣一定要去走的路那前半段前面這幾年呢臺灣就綠電的環境用賭購費率等等來讓這個整個綠色的產業能夠發展起來那現在慢慢的特別委員也知道離岸風電已經全部都是直接用民間來購電了那太陽光電呢"},{"start":606.091,"end":635.322,"text":"所以部長你剛才回答就印證了兩件事情。第一個,你每次都講國際因素。事實上這個不是那麼重要的,對不對?不對,國際因素還是最大。第二個更重要,當它影響沒有那麼大的時候,往下掉的時候,為什麼要往上走?是買了太多甚至是太貴的電。我給你看一個數目字好不好?"},{"start":640.501,"end":656.954,"text":"臺電本身有太陽能對不對?有,臺電也有。臺電一度是多少?3.36那為什麼你去買太陽能的時候買到4.86呢?當然可能要給一定的這個利潤是沒有錯的,可是會不會給得太高?更嚴重的是什麼?立案平傳。"},{"start":658.622,"end":680.679,"text":"為什麼有那麼多弊案光是跟光電有關的弊案那麼多上個禮拜院長一直搖頭上個禮拜臺南的八十八槍光電這個案子那個主嫌昂貴才判了10年前兩年光是跟光電有關的至少起訴了60件喔所以他有兩個問題一個是為什麼那麼好賺跟台電台電虧損那麼多還要拿那麼多錢去補"},{"start":683.1,"end":703.169,"text":"那我們的錢去補可是只要臺電去買的都買得那麼貴而且發生幣安安。欸跟委員報告齁事實上那個短過匯率齁其實裡面有非常多的專家我們用非常精確的成本來算那當然他有一點利潤但是你不能說他是暴利那臺電自己發的太陽能力成本比較低因為"},{"start":704.389,"end":729.918,"text":"臺電是用自己的土地來做...這個我了解可是會不會太高了為什麼會發生弊案為什麼一段時間你就出現很多光電的這個是不是應該院長我們現在要賬人民的錢要賬電價結果人民現在看到的是什麼你臺電去買的電是太貴了你看看最近的新聞光是一個過年光電的那些公司發的連中賬金他的紅利"},{"start":732.515,"end":737.082,"text":"欸當台電這麼辛苦的時候台電以前是一個很好的公司體質很好的公司是個經濟模欸"},{"start":738.88,"end":764.727,"text":"當他要跟人民拿這麼多錢的時候他去買電又買這麼貴人民會怎麼想這個事情所以我的結論是要不要先去把臺電買電這個事情把它弄清楚才去談漲價的事情你說內部沒有改革你憑什麼去漲人民的價錢我們當然在所有的電價審議委員會在討論的過程當中我們當然也會就臺電的這個支出的部分包括購電的部分包括發電的部分做同"},{"start":765.307,"end":766.588,"text":"謝謝院長另外我再補充一下就是說實際上這個綠電"},{"start":794.991,"end":797.873,"text":"所以院長跟部長你們有一個真相沒有跟我們前名講沒有跟我們台灣人民講第一個"},{"start":822.717,"end":842.392,"text":"最近的這個價格還是往上走對不對買綠電的錢現在進入高峰期喔所以你明年不只今年要錢有虧損明年後年大後年至少未來五年在再生能源這一塊虧損會更大對不對這是第一個點第二個你們到目前沒有看到你們解決方案阿"},{"start":843.254,"end":859.461,"text":"你們現在談的是什麼2025要增加到20%那現在這個時間現在才18、9.9虧損已經這麼大你們要跟人民講清楚人民這是給了你錢、漲了定價或者給你補貼之後未來5年漏洞會更大要不要跟人民講清楚"},{"start":860.241,"end":882.522,"text":"欸事實上發展再生能源臺灣其實已經走得很慢了那發展再生能源的時候那相關的這個部分臺灣當然要去支持這個再生能源的產業但是我剛才講了現在已經越來越多都已經直接賣給民間的企業不是用等購費率的部分所以這個部分呢臺電"},{"start":883.943,"end":910.195,"text":"我們在維持的時候穩定但是也會一直讓他稀釋出去賣民間所以我想委員對不應該是說再生能源要走回頭路啦這個還是台灣要走了台灣已經是比較慢了再生能源院長跟部長講我完全贊成我們是支持再生能源可是我們反對買太貴給太多錢特別是在台電虧損這麼嚴重的時候第二個弊端頻傳所以我們很明確的要求"},{"start":911.161,"end":937.318,"text":"你們要有支持我是支持可是要做這兩件事情不要再買太貴好不好第二個弊端一定要查清楚有有所以弊案的情形事實上現在這個委員現在看到都是確實過去有發生一些案子然後檢調已經來協調所以現在看起來的情形目前就比較正常的一個在發展我們再看臺電最主要是兩個一個是外面買電對不對"},{"start":938.598,"end":965.1,"text":"另外一個看買了什麼電,我們再看民間電廠。民間電廠是第一天會議做總統的時候,本來要把台電要把它民營化。那後來為什麼去買電,包括9家民營電廠?就是為了效率,為了把價格降低嗎?結果你從這條線看出來,我們買的電都還是太貴。要給一定的利潤,業界認為有多少利潤是合理的?10%以內。可是我們買的都太貴,這是一個點。第二個,請大家看一下這個表。院長,看這個表。"},{"start":967.861,"end":992.869,"text":"臺電本身也用燃煤他一度是多少錢3.57到了112年的時候降到3.43臺電的燃煤成本是降低的可是臺電去跟民間的業者買電的時候跟民間電廠買電的時候3.69不只沒有降為什麼攀升到4.15"},{"start":996.367,"end":1006.402,"text":"我們自己的燃料也降了,國際的趨勢也是降了,臺電自己自發的成本也是降了。請跟我說,請跟我講清楚,為什麼我們去跟民間電廠買的,反而是往上走。"},{"start":1007.518,"end":1008.239,"text":"議長你是科學家,你數學很好的。"},{"start":1039.44,"end":1059.561,"text":"委員我想這個怎麼樣去算出來這個價錢經濟部一定有一套的這個的算法那今天的時間的關係我們請經濟部在質詢完以後在大的環境裡面燃煤再往下掉對不對第二個你如果就台電自己發電跟去買的這很簡單的一個比較啊"},{"start":1060.3,"end":1078.941,"text":"對,但是剛才講一個往下,一個自發的往下掉,結果去買的買那麼貴。其實我們都很清楚嘛,委員你不要還清楚,當我們的發電量很大的跟民間發電量小的時候,那個成本其實不完全一樣嘛,這個我想我們都可以了解。"},{"start":1079.321,"end":1095.079,"text":"所以臺電的花店的價錢跟民間花店的價錢這個都要專家去算因為他的這個成本是不太一樣那我們也希望鼓勵來跟民間有花店所以這一個部分的價錢真的是有精算的結果"},{"start":1095.86,"end":1097.701,"text":"院長,你看所有的發電裡面哪個最便宜?"},{"start":1125.868,"end":1127.048,"text":"但是不能夠再留子孫"},{"start":1146.434,"end":1164.055,"text":"我來跟你試算了一下,因為你一直在發展再生能源,我說再生能源我們是支持的,可是不要發生必然,不要買太貴,這是一個最重要的面子。那相對的,既然有很便宜的電,核能一度電成本才1.39,你現在不是在講虧損嗎?"},{"start":1165.663,"end":1183.884,"text":"你如果用核能的話你可以賺錢欸每發一度核能的電你是賺錢的那你為什麼要把它停下來呢我再幫你試算一個更恐怖的數字好不好這段時間你去買再生能源的如果用最便宜的核能計算都花了582億"},{"start":1186.837,"end":1216.166,"text":"那你現在你還要把核電慢慢還要今年核三廠可能就要退就表示明年我覺得院長跟部長你們有責任跟民眾講清楚台電不只是去年虧損民眾今年虧損民眾在你們能源政策之下明年後年大後年至少或未來的五年因為核能的這個變成零虧損會越來越大怎麼辦這真相要跟台灣人民講清楚吧好"},{"start":1216.943,"end":1233.399,"text":"委員那個和一和二和三當時在建設的時候就已經講好說他的服役期間是有多長那現在我們會讓他除役就是因為時間已經到了嘛40年到了嘛所以我們就是除役這是很早以前就訂定下來的這個規定那"},{"start":1235.761,"end":1252.114,"text":"委員講的是說好那核能很好可是這裡面剛才講的核廢料的處理是未來的成本還有廚藝是成本很高另外一個很重要的就是說在未來的這幾年如果我們貴黨有提到說核能要研議"},{"start":1253.015,"end":1268.244,"text":"那如果核能要研議即使要研議的話不是說我今天到期的時候我說研議就可以繼續發電,不可以喔還需要有2到4年的時間才能夠來繼續發電這是按照這個安全的規定嘛"},{"start":1268.404,"end":1268.424,"text":"﹚張啓楷"},{"start":1284.81,"end":1310.698,"text":"所以這樣子可以看起來的話,如果整個電價未來的結構都一定是受到國際燃料的影響。院長你聽過一句話吧,錯誤的政策比貪污更恐怖、更可怕。我不能講說你今天完全是錯誤的,可是至少遠征征的,我覺得院長跟部長今天有責任要跟我們台灣的民眾講清楚。因為你現在要漲電價,人民已經被你包好幾層皮了,因為現在如果物價漲、電價又漲,"},{"start":1313.604,"end":1313.624,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":1333.953,"end":1334.033,"text":"我們...我們"},{"start":1363.17,"end":1379.228,"text":"現在核能廠除役是依法規定的嘛你40年到來你就是要除役嘛那你現在如果說好假設就像您講的一樣就是說不除役要延役的話那我們是不是要有延役的法律的依據嘛對不對"},{"start":1379.889,"end":1385.83,"text":"提了以後我還是要強調那個核安的部分就是說你一個到了40年以後他要開始去繼續發電是需要有安全檢查國外的經驗大概都是2到5年的時間大部分都是5年"},{"start":1406.235,"end":1429.637,"text":"那所以為什麼要5年前就要申請原意嗎?可是5年前申請原意的時間就是為了要這5年的期間來做安全檢查,讓他截止那一天...院長你講的依法這個當然一定不會違背嘛,所以包括國民黨包括民眾黨都已經提案子了嘛,對不對?這個我們要共同努力,我今天的執行重點是窟窿這麼大,你們要跟大家講"},{"start":1430.157,"end":1432.379,"text":"我們一定會跟在考量所有的電價的時候跟以前齁"},{"start":1446.628,"end":1471.114,"text":"你講的前總統在調電價的時候是不一樣的因為我們看歷次你看我們調建價的時候都會考慮到民生用電大小商店的用電還有不同產業用電還有產業是在上升的這個狀況好的還是下降的我們都會有很仔細的來這樣的決定電價的調整原因就是讓產業能夠繼續永續讓民生不會受到影響"},{"start":1474.335,"end":1500.118,"text":"這就是我們在調電價的時候希望我們的審議委員會做很精緻的調整這是我們會努力來做委員你講的說要說清楚讓我們賣誰不知道這一定要大家一定要了解要不然的話我們是一定要帶慷慨但是我們就是說要好好的跟大家說理為什麼要這樣調說理清楚了大家也可以說共體時間這是我們要努力的"},{"start":1501.099,"end":1529.818,"text":"所以部長跟院長我提了三個可以讓電價不見得要漲的方案你們聽完之後到底有沒有可能這一次的要嘛就不要漲要嘛的話至少讓民生不要漲有沒有可能性如果你照我剛剛那個改革其實有很多錢是可以省下來的啊應該從改革做起把成本把它降低啊不是急著要去讓人民被撥老幾層皮啊有沒有可能民生不要330度以下不要漲這可能性存不存在"},{"start":1531.016,"end":1544.882,"text":"這個要專家委員會去評估啦,我們現在講齁,我們若沒數字齁,直接用嘴講齁,這樣不夠苛刻啦。苛刻的齁,比較有基礎的講法就是講要有重大懲罰。法定的講法,你是說用電大戶,應該是會長嘛,對不對?工業用電會長嘛,你對民生用電,"},{"start":1553.013,"end":1572.478,"text":"第一個我們當然第一個確實臺電的這樣的虧損還是需要政府的裁員的益助。第二個那個電價我們會召開小組來討論。那現在就是對民生的用電確實我們很久很久都沒有漲。已經20年所以你這次如果調的為什麼我剛剛講會變漲價廉的。20年沒有人敢調的。"},{"start":1576.219,"end":1601.706,"text":"現在的物價上漲又這麼嚴重。現在的政府要去調它嗎?相關的這個惡霧戰爭之後整個電價的成本跟在過往的電價成本早期電價成本可能兩塊兩塊多一點但是現在電價的成本其實是差不多四塊左右那這個對我們已經長期因為體恤這個比較這個一般的民眾所以很久很久都沒有賬那所以這個我們會通盤去檢討"},{"start":1604.187,"end":1617.377,"text":"所以通盤檢討是不仗可能性的存在嗎?不仗的可能性是不是存在?我們會通盤來看這個相關的情形。委員你講的那是一個方案,這個方案如何比較好當然就要有措辭,這措辭要有討論,讓專家來討論可能比較適合"},{"start":1628.966,"end":1628.986,"text":"謝謝院長"},{"start":1656.746,"end":1669.293,"text":"請記得把剛剛要的資料一個禮拜內給我,跟民間電廠沒買太貴了。第二個弊案怎麼去去除,跟整個公開透明。那我再問你一個,我再請教一個跟經濟發展很有關係的。台積電要繞腳到嘉義,台積電要繞腳到嘉義。"},{"start":1674.341,"end":1697.377,"text":"到底會不會跳票?之前賴清德總統當選人到嘉義的時候他是說要潛力去促成你們兩位會幫忙嗎?我想台積電到嘉義這件事情我們會積極來努力目前也已經有我們相關的部會或者是相關的就是我們副院長也有去協調這個部分我們樂觀其成"},{"start":1702.237,"end":1704.339,"text":"我們事實上對台積電在臺灣包括這個先進的製程包括先進的封裝等等我們都會讓他在臺灣落腳"},{"start":1717.13,"end":1745.253,"text":"那這個部分有時候相關的投資案會有需要廠商來宣布比較好但是對政府來講他在哪裡是合適做什麼產業我們都會跟產業界做詳細的溝通現在看起來照他園區的這個規定先進的風車廠是可以的所以我們全力爭取當然我知道主委有提到可能一寸經驗現在可能有困難可是環評我們是會努力那謝謝院長跟這個部長的這個支持另外我再問一個嘉義的事情"},{"start":1745.939,"end":1755.205,"text":"現在一直在爭取一個輕軌為高鐵太保站一枚加機器的這次。他那個報告已經到那個院長那邊嘛。院長、行政院這邊會支持這個輕軌嗎?他那個載量已經從RO"},{"start":1758.823,"end":1764.947,"text":"國產只要講你支持就好了,你不用再講了。我們已經有撥了1290萬,請他做可行性的。所以基本上我們支持這個方向。請嘉義市政府趕快提出這個報告。"},{"start":1786.943,"end":1790.928,"text":"加一是鐵路高架化那筆錢陳水扁總統到了加一是親親手手跟人家說的那38億是"},{"start":1801.345,"end":1807.489,"text":"陳水扁總統那個時候答應的因為時代的變遷再加上我們已經有很多不同的在蓋這個高價化的時候都有新的規範所以這個部分我請部長說明一下"},{"start":1831.045,"end":1856.438,"text":"現在大概這樣,原來38億這也是經過跟嘉義市政府討論的結果那現在多了10億齁我們現在初步是因為嘉義的財政負擔他原來從這個3級現在降回4級所以一個是補86%一個補84%所以我們現在初步就是因為總的預算是加了...國產銀行會...抱歉抱歉國產銀行會幫忙多少?欸就是2%可以討論現在2%多2%可以討論只有2%嗎?能不能再補出多一點?"},{"start":1860.202,"end":1862.607,"text":"現在因為我們必須全國有一樣的規則。這是全國性的規定。48.2億。"},{"start":1889.121,"end":1894.872,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"149147","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149147","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e9681068d28c2096d47e824c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a668389693bd1b95a25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"10:42:45 - 11:13:39","影片長度":"00:30:54","會議時間":"2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-27","duration":1854,"end_time":"2024-02-27T11:13:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-27T10:42:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":504,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（10時42分）謝謝主席。陳院長、各部會首長，大家早安。是不是請主席請陳院長備詢？"],["主席：麻煩陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：陳委員早，恭喜委員當選連任。"],["陳委員雪生：院長早安。最近這幾天發生金廈水域大陸漁民不幸罹難的事情，間接影響到馬祖的海域。部長，您最近有沒有提到陸海警闖金門禁限制水域，我們要加強取締，必要時予以驅離，有沒有講這句話？"],["陳院長建仁：在金門是有禁限的水域，當有大陸的漁船進來的時候，我們確實是希望能夠請他們儘快撤離。"],["陳委員雪生：因為事情一發生，我非常關切，金門的事情衍生到馬祖，對於我們馬祖海巡的部分，我也跟海巡隊長講，我們保持警戒，追逐的事情先暫時避免，因為金廈的事情還沒處理好，所以在兩馬鬧元宵的時候，我們的縣長、議長也到彼岸去，跟大陸領導在那邊的氣氛都還很不錯，也就是金門、馬祖和他們的關係還滿好的，雖然他們有三條海監船在離我們5浬的地方也在宣示，但是一切還滿平和的。最近我們的海巡署周署長也做了一些動作，也比較低調一點。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我是建議，在法律跟人道的部分能夠把它切割，畢竟人死為大。大陸的三無船、也就是我們簡稱的白船，是沒有牌照的，它來這邊有兩個目的，一個是我們金門、馬祖的島礁比較多、漁產比較多，它是來釣魚的；一種是來割網的、來竊盜的，所以在海巡跟海警來講的話，他們雙方在檯面下都有默契，是共同打擊犯罪跟取締的目標。但是海巡發生這件事情，是漁船的船尾勾到了底下，據我的瞭解……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["陳委員雪生：也有可能是它的人掉到海裡去死亡，也有可能是我們海巡在執法過程中，我們的人掉到海裡面去死亡，這種悲劇才會有。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，像去年的4月在一次執勤的時候，也是落海4位，其中有3位就是我們的船員，好在那個時候總數是3艘船，所以全部都救得起來。所以海巡同仁在執法的時候知道自己也是在搏命，因此跟委員報告，絕對不可能說我們的船比它小的情況下，我們的同仁會想要去撞這艘船，這個絕對不會是事實……"],["陳委員雪生：管主任委員……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，一定，跟委員報告。"],["陳委員雪生：我不會幫海巡講話，也不會幫大陸講話……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們案情就是請檢察官來還原。"],["陳委員雪生：我在持平的立場，是說這種悲劇發生了……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們很遺憾。"],["陳委員雪生：不是我們樂意見到的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是的。"],["陳委員雪生：今天我們希望把法律的部分跟人道的部分，分為兩部分來處理。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們一直都是希望朝向人道、撫慰的方式，朝向這裡一起來談判，但是整個談判的環境，我方是如此，但是對方我們也希望是如此。"],["陳委員雪生：因為大陸老百姓他搞不清楚狀況，群情激憤啊！所以目前在金廈海域有白船在追逐我們海巡的事情。所以我們海巡在這個時候需要忍耐，我們戒備就好了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：從事件發生以後，我也特別指示，一定是冷靜、理智來進行我們常態性的巡護……"],["陳委員雪生：我們低調……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，事實上目前……"],["陳委員雪生：不要繼續挑釁。"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有，海巡不會挑釁。"],["陳院長建仁：我們從來沒有挑釁。"],["管主任委員碧玲：海巡不會挑釁。"],["陳委員雪生：像周署長最近做的事情很好，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我指派他去上香……"],["陳委員雪生：就人命的部分，我們跟他道歉嘛，這部分有什麼關係？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我特別指派他要到金門去，然後請他上香，他也接見了家屬，他都做了。"],["陳委員雪生：好，謝謝。我想借用總質詢的時間……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們很希望在這個氣氛之下能夠有進展，但是有很多提出來希望我們去做的事情，事實上真的是很難，我們很希望、很希望趕快回到人道、撫慰……"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝，管主任委員，謝謝，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：這件事情我在這邊再次提醒……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，謝謝委員，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：我們跟大陸不要為了小事情把兩岸人民的感情造成一種傷害，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我瞭解，委員也幫了很多忙……"],["陳委員雪生：金門跟馬祖我們跟彼岸非常地好。"],["管主任委員碧玲：縣政府跟縣議會也都幫了很多忙，我們都非常地感謝，我們很遺憾。"],["陳委員雪生：好，我們也希望一直做潤滑劑……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們很希望趕快。"],["陳委員雪生：希望能夠解決這方面問題……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們很希望在人道、撫慰的部分，集中到人道、撫慰的部分，朝向這裡我們好好地協商，然後來解決這件事情，我們有很大的誠意。"],["陳委員雪生：好，希望管主任委員您儘快地把這件事情平復，好不好？謝謝你。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們很努力，我們很努力。"],["陳委員雪生：繼續我想請教院長……"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["陳委員雪生：飛安很重要吧？"],["陳院長建仁：飛安，當然。"],["陳委員雪生：飛行安全如果沒有的話，我們寧可把機場關閉嘛，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：是，當然。"],["陳委員雪生：我們也不一定要飛，會造成人命的話，是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["陳委員雪生：85年4月5號，我們馬祖發生空難，國華航空飛機失事，6個人死亡，其中包含我們前任楊綏生縣長也在飛機上，他是逃命出去的，甚至還救了一些人，我們非常感佩。","民國86年8月10號，國華航空又失事了，16個人全數罹難，其中包含了我弟弟、我弟媳婦、我姪女、我親家母5個人，16個人，我們家占了五分之一，所以這種悲痛不是那種沒坐過飛機的人……有些人沒坐過飛機，有些人不敢坐飛機，有一些人有懼高症，那種痛苦不是向那些人能夠形容的。我為什麼要去選立法委員？我就是為了這件事情！我不停地呼籲、不停地呼籲我們的機場要改善，這很重要。","好，110年5月10號我們有一架飛機因為南竿機場側風，它的右輪打到頭端以後降落，機場爆胎，所幸人員安全，所以這一些都是全國最不安全的機場，比較不安全的機場好了啦！應該是馬祖的南竿機場跟北竿機場，院長您承認這件事嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想南竿跟北竿機場確實是有可以精進的地方。"],["陳委員雪生：下去的時候看到側風會怕啊！是不是能夠安全降落……"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["陳委員雪生：會不會歪掉？這是我們心中的痛嘛！是不是？所以目視機場到目前為止，因為氣候的因素、天候的因素，南北竿的航班經常停飛，10年來一共有3,625架次無法起降，天候的因素，側風風太大、霧太大、一陣霧飄來，立榮航空有3,593架次，華信航空有32架次無法降落，所以北竿機場擴建，我從85年當第三屆國大代表的時候就已經提出北竿機場改善，因為那時候就是我弟弟飛機失事；90年到98年，時任縣長，正好我當縣長，我更強力地推動北竿機場的改善方案；103年雪生要求行政院要給馬祖一個安全的機場、3C的機場；到104年民航局提出來了，馬祖北竿3C機場綜建規劃方案；111年行政院核定原則支持這件事情；112年7月通過環評的審查，環境影響評估通過了；到現在113年2月15號，最近國發會開一個會，找了我們縣長、鄉長開了一個會，表示審查已經差不多了，要送到行政院去核定。去年10月6號本席質詢院長的時候，院長怎麼回答我？我放一片影片給您看好不好？","（播放影片）"],["陳委員雪生：好，院長您在10月6號你回答我嘛！說要核定。"],["陳院長建仁：對，那現在委員的投影片也講說現在國發會已經審議完，我請……"],["陳委員雪生：我相信院長你還沒看過，還沒看過……"],["陳院長建仁：對，我請……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為2月15號我們大概原則上有召開會議，大概原則是通過了嘛！裡面大家有提議的唯一有一些concern的就是機場在維修的時間，現在大概預估要七年多，大家覺得這個時間可能比較長，是不是就是請交通部這邊再跟民航局再討論一下，它實施的工序也好或方法也好或夜間施工等等的一些情況，看能不能把那個時間再縮短，我們大概就希望這個想好以後大概2月底就會報還給我們，我們就儘快地報給行政院，行政院就可以核定。"],["陳委員雪生：好，龔主委，你講得很好，您在開的會裡面，北竿機場改建的時程要多遠我告訴你，第一期要11年9個月，第一期幹什麼呢？用地取得跟設計要4年6個月，那時候我這一任又卸任了，我又看不到了，第二、工期要7年3個月，也就是一共要11年9個月，這是第一期的部分，還有第二期。第二期是什麼呢？新航站的工程需要蓋多久呢？10年3個月，一共加起來要多久呢？要24年2個月。院長先生，你幾歲了啊？"],["陳院長建仁：我九十幾歲了。"],["陳委員雪生：我還看得到嗎？這太過分了吧！"],["陳院長建仁：我想委員……"],["陳委員雪生：你們那麼多的部會首長在這邊，蓋個馬祖機場要24年，你們聽得下去嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：所以委員，剛才我們龔主委才說希望交通部再檢討一下工期建設的時間，是不是能跟廠商一起考慮怎樣縮短，這是有必要的。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，第一期的部分只要機場的延長跟改善做好以後，安全就沒有問題。第二期您剛才提到新的航站部分，要配合……"],["陳委員雪生：你蓋50年、100年關我什麼事啊？我已經死翹翹了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：沒有，這是第一期的部分，工期七年多蓋完以後，這個新跑道就可以開始營運，只是我們希望7年3個月可不可以再縮短。"],["陳委員雪生：不是，全世界的機場有沒有蓋過二十幾年的？哪個機場是這樣蓋的？蓋二十幾年耶！"],["陳院長建仁：好，我想我們……"],["陳委員雪生：北京還是杜拜嗎？還是哪裡？華盛頓嗎？有蓋二十幾年的喔？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我們請部長做簡單的回復，好不好？"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，現在這有一個環環相扣的關係，第一個，南竿機場要遷移到風山，我要炸山，然後為了這個跑道延伸350公尺，我必須填海，所以我現在的想法是炸山、填海把它做出來。剛才談到7年3個月是因為跑道的南端在填海的時候，它會有一些施工以及在某個程度要壓土的時候，可能會有2公尺高……"],["陳委員雪生：部長，我不聽那麼多。"],["王部長國材：我的意思是說……"],["陳委員雪生：蓋機場一共要多久？你跟我講就好了啦！"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告……"],["陳委員雪生：你講1234、ABCD要30年、50年，我聽不下去了啦！"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，我覺得用地取得還有設計的階段，如果縣政府跟我們民航局來溝通，我想可以把4年6個月縮短。工期的部分，我們也想辦法來縮短，因為剛才看到在北竿的飛機事實上不多，所以它施工的空隙應該會比較多，這部分我已經跟民航局討論過。也就是說，第一個是11年9個月怎麼縮短，我們現在已經有討論一些了，第二個因為新航廈……"],["陳委員雪生：還有細設、還要細設嘛！"],["王部長國材：對，就是用地取得跟細設的時間跟縣政府討論……"],["陳院長建仁：可以縮短。"],["王部長國材：如果可以縮短就縮短。"],["陳委員雪生：院長，你告訴我什麼時候能夠核定？"],["陳院長建仁：核定的話，就是他們……"],["陳委員雪生：10月6日講的話……"],["陳院長建仁：剛才講2月底送過來，我們3月初就來核定。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們希望交通部民航局跟縣政府這邊談好，2月底回復給我們以後，我們就會回復行政院。"],["陳委員雪生：院長，可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我們3月份會來核定，但問題就是說……"],["陳委員雪生：這有錄音的，你要注意喔！"],["陳院長建仁：是，剛才就講過，因為他們還在等民航局把相關的時程再做一個檢討，我們的目的都是一樣，就是希望可以把這個期程縮短。"],["陳委員雪生：回去討論，蓋6年不得了了嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：我也覺得太久了。"],["陳委員雪生：蓋二十幾年啊！"],["陳院長建仁：不過這個工程我們也要瞭解確實有它的困難度，所以我們儘可能由專家審查，看看這樣的工期縮短……"],["陳委員雪生：填海才20米啊！"],["陳院長建仁：對，填海。"],["陳委員雪生：20米的水深，填海出去350公尺，需要蓋二十幾年？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，的確民航局在估這個時間，第一個在離島，一般的營造廠商不願意過去，它一定要談到這個問題……"],["陳委員雪生：部長，我到交通委會還會問你這個問題。"],["王部長國材：對，所以我想說我們來檢討……"],["陳委員雪生：今天先不要浪費這個時間，好不好？"],["王部長國材：對、對、對。"],["陳委員雪生：院長，你答復我，兩個禮拜之內核定？"],["陳院長建仁：3月份，對。"],["陳委員雪生：3月份？3月1號到3月30號有30天耶。"],["陳院長建仁：我們收到民航局……"],["陳委員雪生：你10月6號就跟我講核定了。"],["陳院長建仁：對，就是國發會把這個資料送到行政院來，我們會儘快核定。"],["陳委員雪生：這種事情已經辦7、8年了，8、9年了啦！"],["陳院長建仁：會，我們會儘快。"],["陳委員雪生：你要慢慢拖，不是儘快……"],["陳院長建仁：不會、不會，我……"],["陳委員雪生：兩個禮拜，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：我們儘快努力。"],["陳委員雪生：可以完成嘛！龔主委，你那邊的手續都已經差不多了嘛？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員雪生：去報行政院秘書長，秘書長送上去給院長看一下就差不多了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員雪生：需要那麼久嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我們就等待相關的意見，我們會來催促，好不好？"],["陳委員雪生：好，這個機場沒問題了。第二個，我請教一下南北竿大橋，從106年一直扯到現在，106年都多少年了？這個案子綜合規劃已經完成了，跟機場一樣，一直在那邊拖，你們國發會的講法是什麼呢？說看南竿機場運量怎麼樣，龔主委，我告訴你，南竿機場是個非常危險的機場，它的進場那個側風的地方已經改善到極致了，不安全的機場你不用關閉嗎？不安全的機場你讓它繼續飛嗎？要等到出事了，縣長下臺、院長下臺，是不是這樣？向國人道歉，要搞到這樣的地步嗎？我不希望有這樣的事情發生。所以你要做南竿機場的話，這個大橋一定要做嘛！你大橋不做，北竿機場你現在做十幾年，我們那邊老百姓快炸鍋了「蓋個機場要十幾年，我不蓋了，我寧可去掉飛機也沒關係啊！我要忍受十幾年，我生意都不要做了嗎？」不是陣痛期，這是長痛的，要十幾年，你北竿機場在做，北竿機場老百姓要到南竿坐飛機，那北竿機場做完以後呢？南竿機場又要到北竿去坐飛機，那南竿機場怎麼辦？又來了，問題又來了，所以這個橋的問題一定要解決嘛！沒關係，你機場核定以後，我希望橋的問題，我們來討論，我們來討論橋的事情，橋一定要做，橋一定要做，我想你行政部門不做，我們立法院來推，我會逼著你們做，你橋一定要做，所以橋的細設也很簡單，誰說要做什麼600億？龔主委，誰講的600億？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，現在因為上一次院長指示說，尋找第三方比較客觀的來重新評估，包括技術上，還有經費上，那我們現在也已經招標了，就是英國的一個工程顧問公司，全世界排名大概第11名。"],["陳委員雪生：這個話是你們國發會傳出來要600億。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是，所以就是說要從第三方……"],["陳委員雪生：蔡總統也是誤聽你們的600億，世曦講288億啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是、不是我傳的……"],["陳委員雪生：世曦，人家是世曦，世曦比你專業吧？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以……因為它深到60公尺，那個是我們沒有做過的，所以這個還要第三方技術上的評估，所以我們已經有這樣的評估了。"],["陳委員雪生：照你這樣講，世曦這個單位就不要了嘛！要這個單位幹什麼？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，所以第三方嘛！"],["陳委員雪生：還有技術性，世曦也說可行啊！它說可行啊！沒有說不可行啊！是你們在那邊講不可行，我很奇怪勒！你們找世曦開了會了嗎？也沒有啊！這個事情我們到交通委員會再討論啦！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員雪生：還有高雄航線，高雄航線我在選舉期間，連江縣民進黨黨部主委一直講說，高雄航線他去連署，連署7,000個人，你連署8萬人也沒用啊！航空公司飛不飛很重要啊！立榮航空不飛，國華、華信、華航你叫它飛嘛！部長，你能不能找民航局？我上次已經講過了，民航局召集嘛！用包機的方式、用其他的方式去處理嘛！你可以處理嗎？"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，現在就是用這個方向，就是說馬祖高雄的航線在94年斷掉，當時就是運量不足。"],["陳委員雪生：運量怎麼不足呢？我負責嘛！"],["王部長國材：當時啦！當時的……"],["陳委員雪生：當時，那現在可以了啊！"],["王部長國材：然後現在民航局事實上除了立榮以外，也找了像華信，都討論過了。"],["陳委員雪生：我們除了老百姓、除了觀光客，阿兵哥的占比在南部是50%，還不止。"],["王部長國材：對。"],["陳委員雪生：阿兵哥也是回家的路啊！講了老半天，你們也聽不下去，我叫了老半天。"],["王部長國材：我們跟航空公司做過討論，它們是完全沒有意願。"],["陳委員雪生：民進黨地方黨部方向搞錯了嘛！你要找航空公司啊！"],["王部長國材：現在先用包機，先用包機。"],["陳委員雪生：你們能不能找一下，好不好？"],["王部長國材：包機的方式我想跟連江縣政府這邊來討論一下，怎麼樣做一些獎勵的措施，這個可能比較可行，等包機有運量以後，再恢復定期航線。"],["陳委員雪生：好，部長，你請回，我要問一下我們院長。","院長對部立醫院很熟嘛！醫療系統。"],["陳院長建仁：喔！醫院。"],["陳委員雪生：在選舉期間，我們的連江縣黨部主委李問先生，我很謝謝他，他說問了王必勝次長同意馬祖改為部立醫院，您的看法如何？部立醫院只是換個招牌，「縣立」兩個字改為「部立」就好了嗎？不是這樣哦！人員、組織、編制、醫藥、病房，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["陳委員雪生：什麼神經外科、神經內科，這些都要準備，人員要增加耶！部長，你回答我好了。"],["薛部長瑞元：有關於部立醫院，就是說……"],["陳委員雪生：次長有沒有答應？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前的話是沒有，因為……"],["陳委員雪生：沒有，那你就騙人囉！"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，因為縣政府那邊不是很贊成，主要是地方……"],["陳委員雪生：我們縣政府的兩個院長，也就是兩個縣長是院長的學生劉增應啊。"],["陳院長建仁：對，增應。"],["陳委員雪生：他們覺得我們地方很小，金門跟澎湖實施得不是很順暢，馬祖這個地方行之有年，非常地好，不錯啊！但李問先生跑去講說民進黨王必勝次長答應改為部立醫院，部長，有沒有這回事？"],["薛部長瑞元：並沒有直接說所謂答應改為部立醫院，而是說這個部分必須還要再研議。"],["陳委員雪生：他說答應了啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我們在1月的時候，部裡面有派人過去縣政府跟縣長談過這個事情。目前的話……"],["陳委員雪生：談過？沒有談過，有談過的話縣長會跟我講，我們縣長如果有談過，一定會告訴我！"],["薛部長瑞元：1月17日有去拜訪……"],["陳委員雪生：是誰？王必勝次長嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是我們醫福會……"],["陳委員雪生：我要問的是王次長，王次長有沒有答應？"],["薛部長瑞元：這沒有……"],["陳委員雪生：沒關係，我會到衛環委員會去問。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有說直接答應。"],["陳委員雪生：你們不回答我，我一定查個水落石出。好，請你回去。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：我要問我們國防部邱部長。","院長，它的靶場設在我們的行政中心，長照已經蓋好了、醫院蓋好了、國中蓋好了、國小蓋好了，在中間打靶，槍打來打去。院長，你聽得進去嗎？這個事情我有問過邱部長，邱部長的問題在哪裡，你知道嗎？代拆代建，我說清朝的靶場，現在是民國了，現代化了，那個地用推土機推一推，弄個靶紙，就從這邊打過去，是這樣的打法，不是像現在警察在室內就可以打了，打了以後靶紙自動彈回來，看看靶心有沒有打中，部長，是不是這樣？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告……"],["陳委員雪生：你國防部沒錢，你也講嘛！行政院主計長也在，你能不能另外撥點錢？國防部預算很緊湊我知道啊，他們裡面那個馬路，我當縣長時還是我幫他們鋪的，我鋪了很多條，國防部哪有錢鋪馬路？沒有錢鋪嘛！所以這個靶場是代遷代建，我們縣政府窮，你也知道。","院長，一個是澎湖，一個是馬祖，金門有個酒廠在那個地方，你說靶場搬就搬，有什麼困難？它那個酒多賣兩瓶就有了，但馬祖沒有啊！只有扣我們公務人員薪水拿去做靶場啊。所以邱部長說沒辦法，後來答應我說兩年，兩年了，到現在你們沒動靜耶，我們縣政府幫你都預定好了……"],["邱部長國正：報告委員，我跟您做個說明好不好？我知道委員在這幾個會期中都提到靶場的問題，事實上我們也很積極，我們也編組到三個點去看，我想縣政府也很清楚，有風山、有坂山，還有一個大沃，這幾個地方經過評估以後，我們選的這個點因為有些困難，所以我們3月5日還要再開會，我跟我們同仁交代，我們針對問題，不要讓人家覺得我們在拖，沒有在拖，一直在積極運作。但剛才委員已經點出幾個問題來，我覺得這在後面都可以談，那幾個點選擇之後，有些問題可能要麻煩縣政府先處理完，才能夠走下一步。"],["陳委員雪生：都處理了，剩下你們，你們要代拆代建，就這四個字而已。"],["邱部長國正：代拆代建也是問題之一，其他……"],["陳委員雪生：我們都處理好了，軍方也知道在什麼地方，軍方也不敢講話，大隊怎麼敢講話，一定是國防部才講話嘛……"],["邱部長國正：國防部不敢講話，因為有一些問題……"],["陳委員雪生：那你們現在講代拆代建這四個字，代拆代建這個問題又困在那裡了。邱部長，我們兩個感情不錯吧！"],["邱部長國正：是，感情很好。"],["陳委員雪生：國防部跟縣政府感情也不錯吧！"],["邱部長國正：對，也很好，軍民一家嘛。"],["陳委員雪生：我也注意到了，你到馬祖去，我也沒送你什麼酒，你還送我水果，這種善意我們都感激在心嘛！是不是？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我們對部隊也是很照顧的耶！"],["邱部長國正：的確，我知道，委員對於部隊真的很照顧。"],["陳委員雪生：像最近我還逼人事總處說你們什麼意思啊？在那邊的阿兵哥確實很辛苦。所以拜託部長，這個事情你注意一下，不要為了這個事情影響到軍民的感情，是不是！長照在那裡、學校在那裡，你每天那個子彈在那邊砰、砰、砰、砰、砰！你說呢？"],["邱部長國正：我們也講不過去，所以我有很多方法，把打靶的時間給降低了、還有整個約束也在做了……"],["陳委員雪生：部長，將心比心，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：是！"],["陳委員雪生：還有缺肉，上次選舉期間也來了，部隊沒肉吃，沒肉吃關我縣政府什麼事啊？因為你們那個副食供應中心跟臺灣的肉商有簽約嘛，你的肉一定要跟他買嘛，我們馬祖地區的肉你不能買啊，那問題就出來啦，你們有跟那個行商─開船的公司有簽約嘛，它船正好壞掉了，所以肉也沒辦法送、船也沒辦法開，所以沒肉吃，一扯扯到縣政府，說你們那個馬祖立法委員混蛋！我們阿兵哥沒飯吃、沒肉吃！跟我們什麼關係啊？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，沒有、沒有，不會這樣，那個我跟委員說明一下……"],["陳委員雪生：沒有這個事啊！"],["邱部長國正：我們也在強化，怎麼樣強化？一個它原本的儲存量我們把它給增加天數……"],["陳委員雪生：搞得陸軍司令還要去道歉。"],["邱部長國正：是，所以第二個就是我們現在那個副供站雖然沒有，但它的採購、在外離島的採購一切由部隊長自己作主就可以，我們沒有很大的限制喔，他完全可以……"],["陳委員雪生：部長，現在兵力也少了嘛，你跟民間去買就好了嘛……"],["邱部長國正：是，這他可以做的、可以做的。"],["陳委員雪生：讓他們吃一點生鮮的活豬肉，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員雪生：不要吃清朝那種冰得硬邦邦的，都冰了好幾年的肉耶！"],["邱部長國正：是，我瞭解，這我們同意他在地方上來採購。"],["陳委員雪生：那個魚都已經變成化石了，化石用油炸一炸、放點辣椒，這些阿兵哥也是我們的子弟嘛，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：我瞭解。"],["陳委員雪生：有機會我請你吃一下清朝的化石的帶魚給你吃，好不好？你吃吃看你就知道了。"],["邱部長國正：我吃過，我在馬祖服務過，我知道。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，你注意一下，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員雪生：還有最近一件事，部長跟主計長請回，我們教育部。教育部最近發生什麼事啊？炊事工友沒有了，5個變成2個，2個變成……2個人力沒辦法炒菜啊，好了！我們馬祖四鄉五島、離島啊，小孩子沒飯吃了，沒飯吃以後，外面叫賣的什麼攤販、賣香腸、打香腸的一堆就在校門口，這下生意可好了，學生家長就反彈。不過那天在現場，部長也跟我抱歉了，部長馬上把這問題解決了，63萬……給了兩百多萬，部長，以後這個事情啊……怎麼發現的呢？又是民進黨的連江縣黨部又在罵我啦，說你這個立委怎麼搞的、怎麼搞的，縣政府跟我什麼關係啊？這是你民進黨的單位啊、你的教育部啊、你的國立高中啊！關我們什麼事啊？部長，你以後注意一下嘛，好不好？學校的事情。"],["潘部長文忠：這個我要謝謝委員，因為委員在2月17號當地瞭解這個情形、信息之後……"],["陳委員雪生：不用，這改善了！"],["潘部長文忠：也召開很快的會議……"],["陳委員雪生：還有床鋪！床鋪1.8公尺改為2公尺，好不好？你注意一下，因為時間的關係，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：這也謝謝委員……"],["陳委員雪生：好，謝謝院長、謝謝部長。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：你們關心一下，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員雪生的質詢。","接下來我們請張委員啓楷質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳秉叡","丁學忠","黃珊珊","林岱樺","陳雪生","張啓楷","徐富癸","謝衣鳯","林國成","蔡其昌","萬美玲","黃秀芳","呂玉玲"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2024-02-27"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00011","1130401_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130401_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11.67471875,"end":18.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":18.188468750000002,"end":21.141593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":21.141593750000002,"end":22.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27.570968750000002,"end":30.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":31.08096875,"end":32.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":33.40971875,"end":36.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":37.15596875,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":39.06284375,"end":40.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":41.205968750000004,"end":44.159093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":45.01971875,"end":47.820968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":48.985343750000006,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":50.31846875,"end":53.018468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":53.57534375,"end":55.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":55.76909375,"end":58.148468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":58.43534375,"end":67.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":67.41284375000001,"end":67.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":68.42534375000001,"end":76.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":76.94721875,"end":79.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":80.55846875,"end":82.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":83.29221875,"end":85.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":85.75596875000001,"end":88.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":88.54034375,"end":88.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":88.62471875,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":88.96221875,"end":90.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":91.74659375,"end":94.12596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":94.56471875000001,"end":96.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":97.41659375,"end":100.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":101.02784375,"end":102.76596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":103.42409375000001,"end":107.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":107.71034375,"end":109.51596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":109.97159375000001,"end":111.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":111.92909375,"end":114.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":115.00034375000001,"end":117.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":117.73409375000001,"end":119.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":119.45534375000001,"end":121.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":121.88534375,"end":122.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":123.53909375,"end":126.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":126.45846875000001,"end":129.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":129.78284375,"end":131.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":131.53784375,"end":134.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":135.50346875,"end":136.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":137.47784375,"end":140.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.49846875,"end":141.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":141.42659375,"end":143.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":143.46846875,"end":145.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":146.10096875000002,"end":148.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05"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sperx":[{"start":13.282,"end":27.647,"text":"謝謝主席陳院長還有各部會社長大家早安是不是請主席請陳院長備詢阿凡請陳院長備詢陳委員早恭喜委員當選連任院長早安最近這幾天發生驚嚇隨遇大陸漁民不幸歷難的事情"},{"start":41.263,"end":53.887,"text":"陸海警闖金門禁限制水域,我們要加強取締,必要時與驅離。有沒有講這句話?我們確實在金門是有禁限水域,那在這個當有"},{"start":76.999,"end":96.206,"text":"因為事情一發生我非常關切金門的事情延伸到馬祖所以我們馬祖海巡的部分我也跟海巡隊長講我們保持警戒追逐的事情先暫時避免因為今下的事情還沒處理好"},{"start":97.472,"end":122.447,"text":"所以我們在兩馬鬧元宵的時候我們的縣長、議長也到彼岸去跟大陸領導我們在那邊氣氛都還不錯也就是金門馬祖我們關係還蠻好的雖然他們有三條海監船在我們離我們五海里的地方也在宣誓但是一切還蠻平和的那麼最近"},{"start":123.961,"end":149.328,"text":"我們的海巡署周署長也做了一些動作也比較低調一點我是建議就是說在法律跟人道的部分能夠把它切割畢竟人死為大大陸的珊瑚船也就是我們簡稱的白船白船是沒有牌照的他來這邊有兩個目的一個是我們金門馬祖是島礁比較多啊漁產比較多來釣魚的"},{"start":152.495,"end":180.059,"text":"一種是來割網的來竊盜的所以這個在海巡跟海警來講的話他們雙方在檯面下都有默契是共同打擊犯罪跟取締的目標但是海巡發生這件事情是漁船的魚尾勾到了底下據我的了解有可能是他的人掉到海裡去死亡也有可能是"},{"start":180.492,"end":205.513,"text":"我們海巡在執法過程中,我們的人掉在海裡面去死亡。這一種悲劇才會有的。像去年的4月在一次執勤的時候,也是落海四位,其中有三位就是我們的船員。那好在那個時候總數是三艘船,所以全部都救得起來。所以海巡同仁在執法的時候知道自己也是在搏命,所以跟委員報告,"},{"start":207.094,"end":230.78,"text":"絕對不可能說我們的船比他小的情況下,我們的同仁會想要去撞這艘船。這個絕對不會是。我也不會幫海軍講話,也不會幫大陸講話。我們案情就是請檢察官來懷疑。不是我們樂意建造的。今天我們希望把法律的部分跟人造的部分分為兩部分來處理。"},{"start":231.86,"end":256.94,"text":"我們一直都是希望朝向人道撫慰的方式,朝向這裡一起來談判。但是整個談判的環境,我方是如此,但是對方我們也希望是如此。目前在今夏海域有白船在追逐我們海巡的事情,所以我們海巡在這個時候我們需要讓人賴,我們戒備。"},{"start":261.454,"end":278.733,"text":"我們一直都從事件發生以後,我也特別指示,一定是冷靜理智來進行我們常態性的巡撫。是事實上目前……不要繼續挑釁了。沒有,我們從來沒有挑釁。周組長最近做的事情很好啊。"},{"start":279.133,"end":305.351,"text":"我指派他去上香我特別指派他要到金門去然後請他上香他也接見了家屬他都做了事我們很希望在這個氣氛之下能夠有進展但是事實上有很多提出來希望我們去做的事情事實上真的是很難那我們很希望很希望趕快回到人道福威這件事情我想"},{"start":306.852,"end":335.471,"text":"我在這邊再次提醒,我們跟大陸不要為了一點點小事情,反兩岸人民的感情造成一個犯罪。我了解,委員也幫了很多忙,縣政府跟縣議會也都幫了很多忙,我們都非常的感謝,我們很遺憾,我們很希望在人道府衛的部分,集中到人道的府衛的部分,朝向這裡我們好好的協商,然後來解決這件事情,我們有很大的誠意。"},{"start":336.071,"end":364.577,"text":"盡快的把這件事情平復好不好?我們很努力我們很努力那我繼續我想請教這個院長是飛安很重要吧飛安飛行安全如果沒有的話我們寧可把機場關閉嘛對不對?是當然我們也不一定要飛喔不造成人命的話是不是?是85年4月5號我們馬祖發生空難國華航空飛機失事6個人死亡"},{"start":365.922,"end":391.41,"text":"其中包含我們前任楊崔生現場也在飛機上他是逃命出去了甚至還救了一些人我們非常感佩民國86年8月10日國華航空又失事了16個人全數罹難其中包含了我弟弟我弟媳婦我子女我親家母5個人"},{"start":393.832,"end":423.048,"text":"十六個人我們家佔了五分之一所以這種悲痛不是那種沒坐過飛機的人有些人沒坐過飛機有些人不敢坐飛機有些人懼高症不是那種那種那一些人那個痛苦能夠形容的我為什麼要去選立法委員我就是為了這件事情我不停的呼籲不停的呼籲我們的機場要改善這很重要"},{"start":423.851,"end":452.483,"text":"好,110年5月10號我們有一架飛機因為南竿機場側風他的右輪打到頭端東山寶到頭端以後那麼降落機場爆胎所幸人員安全所以這一些都是全國最不安全的機場比較不安全的機場好了啦應該是馬祖倫南竿機場跟北竿機場"},{"start":454.591,"end":480.361,"text":"院長您承認這件事嗎?我想南岸跟北岸機場確實是有可以均勁的地方。所以下去的時候看到側風會怕啊?是不是能夠安全降落?會不會歪掉?這是我們心中的痛嘛,是不是?所以牧市機場到目前為止因為氣候的因素、天候的因素南岸北岸的航班經常停飛"},{"start":482.054,"end":502.089,"text":"十年來一共有三千六百二十五架次無法起降,天后的一柱,側風,風太大,霧太大,一陣霧飄來啊。利龍航空有三千五百九十三架次,華信航空有三十二架次,無法降落。所以北竿機場的擴建,我從85年"},{"start":506.054,"end":535.2,"text":"當第三屆國大代表的時候就已經提出北竿機場改善因為那時候就是我弟弟啊那時候飛機失事嘛90年到98年時任縣長正好我當縣長我可以強力的推動北竿機場的改善方案103年雪生要求行政院要給馬祖一個安全的機場山西的機場到104年民航局"},{"start":536.021,"end":555.913,"text":"提出來了馬祖北竿山西機場中建匯合方案。111年行政院合併原則支持這件事情。那麼112年7月通過環評的審查環境影響評估通過了。到現在113年2月15號最近國發會開了一個會找了我們縣長、鄉長開了一個會"},{"start":565.202,"end":587.705,"text":"表示審查已經差不多了,要送到行政院去核定。去年的11月10月6號本席質詢院長的時候,院長怎麼回答我?我放一片影片給您看好不好?我訂了一家無口人命在北竿機場失事。"},{"start":589.246,"end":614.866,"text":"所以北竿機場我請問你交通部、中華民國的政府,全台灣哪一座機場是這樣的機場?政府沒有責任把它做成安全的機場嗎?所以北竿機場第一優先要把它做成安全的機場,所以我們已經合了200億,將近200億我們已經合了,儘快把它完成,這個是我們最優先希望馬祖最先做的。然後北竿機場之外呢?"},{"start":618.772,"end":641.523,"text":"院長您在10月6日回答我,回答核定那現在委員的投影片也講說現在國會這已經審議完我相信院長你還沒看過還沒有我請那個報告委員因為2月15號我們大概原則上有召開會議大概原則通過了"},{"start":642.603,"end":645.185,"text":"請教防部再跟民航局討論一下"},{"start":662.319,"end":689.375,"text":"他實施的工序也好或方法也好或夜間施工等等的一些情況,看能不能把那個時間再縮短。那我們大概就希望這個想好以後大概二月底就會報還給我們,我們就盡快的付給行政院,行政院就可以核定。郭副主委,你講得很好。您在開的會裡面,北開機站改建時程要多遠,我告訴你齁,第一期"},{"start":690.188,"end":705.9,"text":"要11年9個月第一期第一期幹什麼呢用力取得這個設計要4年6個月那時候我這一任又卸任了我又看不到了"},{"start":707.674,"end":733.852,"text":"第二個工期要7年3個月也就是說移動要11年9個月這是第一期的部分還有第二期第二期什麼新航站的工程需要蓋多久10年3個月一共加起來要多久要24年的2個月"},{"start":735.219,"end":750.683,"text":"二十四年兩個月,院長先生你幾歲?我九十幾歲我還看得到嗎?這太過分了吧你們那麼多的各位首長在這邊蓋個馬祖機場要24年你們聽得下去嗎?"},{"start":757.279,"end":771.694,"text":"所以委員剛才我們才公主委才說我們希望這個交通部這邊再來檢討一下這個工期建設的期間是不是能夠跟廠商一起來考慮怎麼樣來說短這個是有必要的"},{"start":774.276,"end":800.782,"text":"報告委員因為第一期的部分那個部分只要機場的延長跟改善那個做好以後安全就沒有問題那第二期您剛才提到那個新的航站那個部分要配合你蓋50年100年關我什麼事啊沒有沒有就是第一期的部分那個工期7年多蓋完以後這個新的這個跑道就可以開始營運只是我們希望說那個7年3個月可不可以再縮短那你全世界機場有沒有蓋過20幾年了嘛哪一個機場是這樣蓋的"},{"start":802.462,"end":806.668,"text":"現在這個有一個環環相扣的關係第一個南岸機場的遷移要到豐山第一個我要炸山"},{"start":819.52,"end":819.62,"text":"﹚陳雪生"},{"start":835.043,"end":835.864,"text":"你跟我講就好了啦。"},{"start":850.483,"end":855.029,"text":"我跟委員報告我覺得用力取得還有設計的這個階段如果縣政府跟我們民進黨來溝通我想可以把4年6個月縮短"},{"start":866.101,"end":893.399,"text":"那供期的部分就是說我們想辦法來縮短就是說因為現在剛才看到在北竿的飛機事實上不多所以他應該施工的空隙會比較多這部分我已經跟民航局討論過也就是說第一個11年9個月怎麼縮短我們現在已經有一些在討論討論了那第二個因為新航下船還有細射吧對對對就是用地取得跟細射這個時間跟縣政府討論如果可以縮短縮短"},{"start":897.302,"end":903.824,"text":"合併的話就是他們剛才講二月底就做出來。那我三月初就來合併。"},{"start":908.018,"end":932.267,"text":"回覆給我們以後我們就會回覆行政院對我們3月份就會來核定了但是問題就是說在這有錄音的喔你要注意喔是是是剛才就講過因為他們還在等這個這個施工民航局把相關的這個時程再做一個檢討我們的目的都是一樣就是希望把這個期程可以縮短我去討論剛才六年"},{"start":933.307,"end":948.011,"text":"對啦,我也覺得太久了不過這個工程我們也要了解說這工程確實有它的困難度那所以我們盡可能的要專家來審查看看這樣的工期這天海啊,這20米啊,20米的水深"},{"start":950.752,"end":971.802,"text":"你填海出去填350公尺嘛我跟委員報告的確沒樣子在顧這個時間第一個在離島一般的營造廠商不願意過去他一定要談到這個問題所以我想說我們來檢討今天先不要浪費這個時間好不好月長你答覆我兩個禮拜之內核定"},{"start":973.283,"end":1002.289,"text":"三月份啊,對啊三月份,三月一號、三月三十號有30天我們收到這個你十月六號能跟我講合併的對啦,這樣就是國發會這個資料送上到行政院來我們會盡快合併這一種事情已經辦了七八年了,八九年了會啦,我們會盡快你要慢慢拖,不是盡快,兩個禮拜好不好我們盡快努力嘛可以完成嘛"},{"start":1003.427,"end":1031.016,"text":"公主委,你那邊的手續都已經差不多啦,就報行政院秘書長嘛秘書長送他一個院長看一下就差不多了嘛對啦,我們就等待相關的意見,我們會來催促好不好好,這個機長沒問題啦齁第二個我請教一下這個南北竿大橋南北竿大橋從106年齁一直扯到現在,106年,多少年了?"},{"start":1033.138,"end":1060.203,"text":"這個案子綜合規劃已經完成了,跟機場一樣,一直在那邊拖。你們國發會的講法是什麼?是說看南竿機場運量怎麼樣?公主委我告訴你,南竿機場是一個非常危險的機場。它的進場那個側風那個地方,它已經改善到極致了。不安全的機場你不用關閉嗎?不安全的機場你讓它繼續飛嗎?"},{"start":1061.823,"end":1089.639,"text":"要等到出事了,縣長下臺,院長下臺,是不是這樣?向國人道歉,要搞到這樣的地步嗎?我不希望有這樣的事情發生。所以,你要坐南安高安機場的話,你這個大橋一定要坐嘛。你大橋不坐,你北安機場,你現在坐十幾年,我們那邊老闆已經快炸鍋了,蓋個機場要十幾年,我不蓋了,你可去吊飛機也沒關係。"},{"start":1090.936,"end":1118.73,"text":"我要忍痛十幾年,我生意都不要做了嗎?不是震動企業,這長痛了欸。要十幾年欸。那你北竿機場做完以後咧?你北竿機場在做,北竿機場老闆一定要到南竿坐飛機。那北竿機場做完以後咧?那南竿機場要到北竿去坐飛機。那南竿機場怎麼辦?又來了,問題又來了。所以這個橋的問題一定要解決嘛。沒關係,你機場確定以後。"},{"start":1120.325,"end":1139.855,"text":"我希望喬的問題我們來討論喬的事情喬一定要做我想你行政部門不做我們立法院來推我會逼著你們做你喬一定要做所以喬的細則也很簡單誰說要做什麼600億公主委誰講的600億"},{"start":1146.367,"end":1164.233,"text":"發言委員,因為上一次院長指示說,尋找第三方比較客觀的來重新評估,包括技術上還有經費上。那我們現在已經也招標了,就是國外的英國的一個工程顧問公司,全世界大概排名第11名。這話是你們國發會傳出來要600億。蔡總統也是誤聽你們的600億。"},{"start":1169.955,"end":1195.636,"text":"施西講288億啊,施西欸人家施西欸,一定比你專業吧。所以因為他那個,因為升到60公尺那個是我們沒有做過的,所以這個還要第三方的技術上的評估,所以我們已經有這樣的評估了。施西這個單位就不要了嘛,要這個單位幹什麼?還有技術系施西也說可行啊,他說可行啊。"},{"start":1196.172,"end":1223.986,"text":"沒有說不可行啊,是你們在那邊講不可行啊,我很奇怪咧。你們找世紀開了會了嗎?也沒有啊。這個事情我們到交通委員會再討論。還有,高雄航線,高雄航線我在選舉期間啊,民進黨黨部主委一直講說,高雄航線他去連署啊,連署7000個人,連署8萬人也沒用啊。"},{"start":1224.585,"end":1233.418,"text":"航空公司飛不飛很重要啊。例如航空不飛,國華、國慶、華航你叫他飛嘛,不打。"},{"start":1234.625,"end":1263.696,"text":"你能不能找民航局我上次已經講過了民航局召集嘛用包機的方式用其他的方式去處理嘛你可以處理嗎現在就是用這個方向就是說馬祖高雄的航線在94年斷掉那當時就是運量不足運量怎麼不足呢我負責嘛當時當時的那個當時那現在可以啦然後現在民航局事實上除了立龍以外也找了像華系我們除了老百姓除了觀光客阿兵哥的占比在南部是"},{"start":1266.641,"end":1281.101,"text":"欸50%欸還不止欸阿兵哥也是回家的路啊講了老半天你們也聽不下去我叫了老半天我們跟航空公司做過討論啦齁他們是完全沒有意願是民進黨民進黨黨部方向搞錯了嘛現在先用包機先用包機"},{"start":1282.406,"end":1310.911,"text":"你們能不能找一下嗎?好不好?包機的方式我想跟縣政府這邊,聯鄉縣政府來討論一下怎麼樣做一些這個獎勵的措施來做,這個可能比較可行。等包機有印量以後在這邊恢復定期航線。我要問一下我們院長,院長對部立院的手法,醫療系統。在選舉期間,我們的聯鄉縣黨部主委,你問先生,我很謝謝他。"},{"start":1312.162,"end":1339.378,"text":"他都為了王必勝次長,同意馬祖改為部立院,您看法如何?部立院只是換個招牌,現立兩個字改為部立就好了嗎?不是這樣齁?人員組織編制醫藥病房,是不是?什麼神經外科、神經內科,這些都要準備了勒?"},{"start":1340.034,"end":1369.122,"text":"人員要增加欸部長你回答我好了那有關於部立醫院就是說有沒有答應?市長有沒有答應?目前的話是沒有啦沒有?沒有就騙人囉沒有,那個因為縣政府那邊是不是很贊成主要是地方我們縣政府的兩個院長也是兩個縣長啊是院長的學生啊,劉振英啊對,振英"},{"start":1369.704,"end":1387.138,"text":"他們覺得我們地方很小嘛,是不是?金門跟澎湖實施的不是很順暢。馬魯這個地方行之有年啊,非常的好。不錯啊。李渭先生跑去講說民進黨王必勝次長答應改為部立院,有沒有這回事?"},{"start":1388.458,"end":1401.546,"text":"並沒有直接說所謂的答應改為不立,而是說這一個部分的話必須還要再研議。雖然我們在1月的時候,那部裡面有派人過去縣政府跟縣長談過這個事情。沒有談過,縣長有談過會跟我講。"},{"start":1407.511,"end":1432.832,"text":"我們會長如果有談過,一定會告訴我。一月十七那有去拜訪那個...黃碧珍部長嗎?應該是我...我要問的是王市長,王市長有沒有答應?這沒有...沒關係,我一個問完就問。今天顧問來我,我一定查個血絡指數。好,請你回去。我要問我們國防部部長,邱部長。還有一點時間。會長是"},{"start":1437.284,"end":1462.236,"text":"他的靶場設在我們的行政中心啊長照已經蓋好了醫院蓋好了國中蓋好了國小蓋好了在中間打靶槍打來打去院長你聽得進去嗎所以這個事情我有問過邱部長邱部長的問題在哪裡你知道嗎待拆待建我說清朝的靶場現在是民國啦現代化啦"},{"start":1466.803,"end":1492.41,"text":"那個是那個地推土地推一推有沒有弄個靶子啊就從那啪打過去是這樣打法的不是像現在現在那個警察你看在室內都可以打打了以後那個靶子自動彈回來看看有沒有打中靶心有沒有打中部長是不是這樣你國防部沒錢你也講嘛行政院主席長也在吧你另外能不能撥點錢啊"},{"start":1494.418,"end":1521.058,"text":"國防部預算很緊湊我知道啊他們裡面那個馬路啊我當縣長還是我幫他們鋪的我鋪了很多條啦國防部哪有錢鋪馬路咧沒有錢鋪嘛所以他這個靶場說代遷代鑒我們縣政府窮的你也知道一個是澎湖一個是馬祖金門有個酒廠在那個地方你說靶場搬就搬有什麼困難啊"},{"start":1522.025,"end":1530.98,"text":"他那個酒多賣兩瓶就有了馬祖沒有啊你知道只有扣我們公務人員薪水拿去做保藏啊所以邱部長說沒辦法後來答應我說兩年"},{"start":1535.081,"end":1558.727,"text":"兩年到現在你們沒動靜欸,我們憲法幫你都預定好了沒有?報告委員我跟您說明好不好,我知道委員幾個會期當中提到拔草的問題,事實上我們也很積極,我們也編組到三個點去看,我想現在政府也很清楚,有封山、有板山、還有個大臥。這幾個地方經過評估以後啊,我們選那個點裡面有些困難,我們好像3月5號還要再開會嘛。"},{"start":1559.727,"end":1581.892,"text":"我跟我們同仁交代,我們針對問題不要讓人家覺得我們在拖,沒有在拖,一直在積極運作。但剛才委員已經點出幾個問題來,我覺得這個在後面都可以談,都可以談。那幾個點選擇了以後,有些問題可能要麻煩縣政府要先處理完,才能夠走下一步。都處理了,甚至像你們現在,你們要代菜代鍵。"},{"start":1582.677,"end":1600.885,"text":"就四個字而已。帶線也是問題之一啦。我們要處理好啊。軍方也知道在什麼地方啦。軍方也不敢講話。大隊怎麼敢講話呢?一定不會不敢講話。不是不敢講話,因為有一些問題。那你們現在在帶拆、再見四個字。帶拆、再見這個問題又困在哪裡啦?邱部長。"},{"start":1601.912,"end":1623.182,"text":"我們兩個感情不錯吧?國防部跟憲政府感情也不錯嗎?也很好,對。距離一家嘛。我也注意到啦,你看你到馬祖區,我也沒送你什麼酒,你還送我水果。這種善意我們的感情在心嘛,是不是?我們對部隊也是很照顧的。的確我知道,這個委員對部隊真的很照顧。在那邊的阿明哥確實很辛苦。所以拜託部長,"},{"start":1630.714,"end":1640.776,"text":"你這個事情注意一下,不要為了這個事情影響到軍民的感情嘛,是不是?長照在那裡,學校在那裡,你每天那個子彈砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰砰�"},{"start":1659.502,"end":1688.199,"text":"沒有事關我縣政府什麼事啊因為你們那個富時供應中心跟臺灣的肉商有簽約嘛你的肉一定要跟他買嘛我們馬祖地區的肉你不能買啊那問題又出來了你們有跟那個航商啊開船的啊公司有簽約嘛他船正好壞掉了所以肉也沒辦法送啊船也沒辦法開所以沒肉吃一扯扯到縣政府"},{"start":1689.044,"end":1695.465,"text":"說你們那個馬祖立法委員混蛋阿兵哥沒飯吃沒肉吃跟我們什麼關係啊"},{"start":1700.399,"end":1723.829,"text":"我們也在強化,怎麼樣強化?一個他原本的儲存量我們把他給增加天數。搞得陸軍司令還要去道歉。第二個就是我們現在這個復共站雖然沒有,但他的採購在外離島採購一切有,他部隊長自己做主就可以,我們沒有很大的限制。現在兵力也少了嘛,你跟民間去買就好了嘛。"},{"start":1724.789,"end":1746.858,"text":"讓他們吃一點生鮮的活豬肉好不好?不要吃青草那種冰得硬梆梆的冰得急,都冰了好幾年那肉欸!那個魚都已經變成化石了化石用油炸一炸放點辣椒,這些阿兵哥也是我們的子弟嘛好不好?有機會我請你吃一下青草的化石的帶魚給你吃好不好?"},{"start":1747.894,"end":1774.503,"text":"你吃吃看你就知道了。我吃過,我在馬祖服務過,我知道。部長你注意一下好不好?是。好,還最近一次,部長跟主席黨請回,我們教育部。教育部勒,最近發生什麼事啊?崔世功有沒有啦?五個變成兩個,兩個變成勒?兩個人力沒辦法炒菜啊。好啦,我們馬祖四鄉五島離島啊。"},{"start":1776.616,"end":1806.234,"text":"小孩子沒飯吃了沒飯吃以後外面叫賣的什麼攤販賣香腸打香腸一堆就在校門口這一下生意搞好了學生家長就反彈不過那天在現場部長也跟我抱歉了部長馬上把這問題解決了63萬給了200多萬部長以後這個事情怎麼發現的又是民進黨的連江縣黨部又在罵我了說你這個立委怎麼搞的怎麼搞的"},{"start":1806.761,"end":1830.267,"text":"現在政府跟我什麼關係啊?這是你民進黨的單位啊?你的教育部啊?你的國立高中啊?關我們什麼事啊?部長你有注意一下好不好?學校的事情。這個我要謝謝委員,因為委員在217號當地了解這個情形,也召開那個很快的會議。還有船舶,船舶1.8公尺改為2公尺好不好?你注意一下。"},{"start":1844.781,"end":1848.165,"text":"謝謝陳委員雪生的質詢。接下來我們請張委員齊凱質詢。"}]}},{"id":"149146","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149146","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e96810634fd5ab88a1518c4c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a6c358bed1a557d1e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"10:30:21 - 10:42:39","影片長度":"00:12:18","會議時間":"2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-27","duration":738,"end_time":"2024-02-27T10:42:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-27T10:30:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（10時30分）主席，有請陳院長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：林委員早。恭喜委員當選連任。"],["林委員岱樺：謝謝院長。你辛苦了！本席現在針對兩個議題來建言行政院，第一個是建立犬貓國家公益血庫，另外一個是四輕更新。有關犬貓的部分，寵物飼養的狀態在2023年，即去年年底有晶片植入登記的已經達225萬，但是臺灣目前對動物用血無法可管，所以對於需要輸血的寵物或買動物血液的飼主就無公正第三單位支持，讓寵物輸血成為高風險的行為。官方、民間各怎麼做？官方在2019年，農委會有犬貓捐輸血的公告，但是形同虛設；民間的部分，在2022年有民間自主的募款透明血庫計畫，但最後還是無疾而終。","至於寵物目前飼養的狀況，當娃娃車內的是寵物的時候，臺灣就已經進入毛小孩的時代，去年年底15歲的人口是279萬人，飼養犬貓有晶片登記的是225萬隻，本席相信如果再加上沒有登記的寵物，那數量更是高了，這樣也不得不讓我們重視寵物醫療用血及牠的醫療權益。犬貓目前的輸血情況，以貓來講，貓的血液主要為AB血群，包括A型、B型及AB型，犬的血液就有8群，然而正式合格血庫機構提供的在臺灣只有5%，95%是未被公認的安全血液。這95%當中的56%是來自以牟利為導向的獸醫院，其中的44%來自非獸醫院的犬貓飼主。血犬血貓的悲慘事件就在臺灣發生，也因為臺灣現況對動物用血無法可管，即使民間有善意自行成立的血液互助會，也因為沒有公證第三單位的支持，讓寵物輸血成為高風險的行為，所以本席強烈主張農業部要制定相關管理條例，而這個條例當中一定要有三個價值──文明、道德、公益。什麼叫做文明？制定動物捐血的標準。什麼叫道德？建立合理的收費標準。什麼叫公益？第三方非營利寵物血庫資料透明管理的機制。血犬血貓恐怖的亂象就可以匹配50年前臺灣國民賣血的狀況，回歸當時的臺灣，民國63年以前完全是有價供應血源的，所以弊病叢生。雖然有民間熱心的社團成立，但從有醫療法的規定一直到97年才有正式的醫療財團法人臺灣血液基金會，寵物是不是可以比照辦理呢？","這樣未列管的血液交易有什麼問題？有四個，第一個、飼養血犬超抽血液會導致狗狗軟腳、貧血沒有辦法管，只有法律規定最高罰鍰1萬5,000元，但是也沒有執行。第二個問題是血液來源沒有保障，第三個血品的設備與配備也有問題，第四個缺乏公正第三方統籌。外國怎麼做呢？我們看美國、英國、印度。美國在2021年有專法，任何生產動物血液和血液的成品都要向農業部申請，而且管制商用血庫並開始建立志願者捐助計畫，要讓商用血庫退場。英國2007年成立第一個非營利為目的的全國性寵物血庫，即英國寵物血液銀行。印度在2010年首次啟動了犬血庫，創亞洲先例。好，本席的主張：農業部在3個月內研擬建立犬貓公益血庫的規劃方案，含逐年編列預算。在這個當中的運作，本席也有建議的時程，我們要強調文明，在前1、2年就建立犬貓公益血庫的機制。3、4年落實道德，學研合作研發機制。5、6年鼓勵公益，完成永續經營血庫的平台。本席期待非營利動物血液基金會能夠在6年後落實。","這樣的具體建議，政府支持政策的給力，提升了動物平權的觀念，學研機構的合作，讓我們有一個示範的血庫及透明血源的媒合平台。貓狗因為有這樣的保障，民眾絕對有感政府的進步，重視寵物貓狗的醫療和動物福利。院長，你怎麼看這個議題呢？"],["陳院長建仁：哇！委員真的是講得很完整，很佩服。我想確實對於寵物血庫的建立是相當的重要，我們一定會努力來推動，這個部分農業部其實已經開始有一些著手，我們是不是請部長簡單講一下？"],["林委員岱樺：院長，因為時間關係，我覺得你這個是非常正面、肯定的方向，事後我再跟農業部做相關的研擬。","我的第二個議題是四輕更新刻不容緩。四輕更新就在本席的選區，它是全國提供乙烯的重要廠區，四輕下游的產業鏈主產乙烯，乙烯有什麼重要？它提供了高值化材料、基礎材料。在高值化材料部分，提供了5G材料、太陽能光電、國防應用、電動車材料、儲能材料、風電材料、半導體材料；在基礎材料部分，提供了民生工業、機能性布料、銀髮族、機車業、醫療材料、鞋類、防疫物資等。國內的乙烯總需求量平均是400萬噸，分別由中油跟台塑生產，產量大概都是相當的，彼此都是200、300這樣的數量，但台塑是完整的自給自足，提供給他們的集團使用，但中油所提供的乙烯卻要從國外進口。","這個老四輕目前是沒有辦法面對新挑戰，不管是在ESG、減碳跟產業需求上。中油的四輕位在岱樺的選區，在本席的選區已經運轉40年，我們高雄歷經了氣爆、石化工安頻傳，高雄鄉親對新四輕當然有所期待。四輕有多危險呢？原物料及產品都是易燃、易爆的危險物品或毒化物，高雄居民已無法承受重大工安再度發生。","新四輕原本的規劃是2017年購地，2022年環評，到2028年投產，中油針對這31公頃土地總共要斥資823億，但是我們現在延宕了，延宕後，現在政院的版本是什麼呢？建置的預算增加了239億，總共到1,062億，人民的期待落空，產業的需求無法滿足，就算行政院有真的核定今年要進行環評的話，也要6到7年後，即2030年才正式投產。","所以我們要加速新四輕創造三贏！本席要感謝經濟部跟中油，其實部長是非常努力在進行地方遊說，不管是對我們高雄市政府，或者是地方民意的整合，所以今天岱樺帶著我林園鄉親的民意、帶著我高雄市民鄉親的期待向行政院建言，如果我們能夠趕快啟動新四輕，就能早日達成自給自足目標，而在建置的過程當中，會創造4萬5,000個就業機會，完成之後，可以增加600個就業機會，帶動地方發展，最重要的是能夠促進產業升級、落實能源轉型、導入智能化的設計與管理、引進低碳製程，使用低碳、零碳燃料，有助於污染的降低，還給我高雄市民乾淨的居住環境。","好，具體的要求：行政院要加速核定四輕再造。院長，這時候是最佳的時間點了，3到4月，也就是此時此刻，各部會依施政計畫編列概算；7到8月主計總處彙整各部會明年度的預算；下半年10月開始，本院就會審查明年的預算，若行政院在第一季未核定四輕更新計畫，該計畫的時程將會比現在報院的時程再慢2年。院長，在您榮退之前，是否能夠送給高雄市民這樣一個符合ESG、淨零轉型的大禮物呢？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們會加速來評估，然後來核定。"],["林委員岱樺：其實這個評估很久了，重點還是民意的整合。"],["陳院長建仁：對，這個很重要。"],["林委員岱樺：其實地方政府，包括在地居民是整合好的，這當中中油和部長都花了很多的心力，本席也才敢在這個國會殿堂上做這樣的建議，所以我們是不是能夠期待在今年520以前，至少在3、4月前能夠拍板定案呢？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我……"],["林委員岱樺：因為現在國發會已經通過了……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是、是、是，我們已經報院了、已經通過了。"],["林委員岱樺：國發會在9月的時候已經報院，所以現在已經在……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，在行政院，我們審核原則上是同意的。"],["林委員岱樺：院長，基本上是在您的院本部了，所以就等您裁決了。"],["陳院長建仁：我們請經濟部稍微說明一下。"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員，確實因為這個計畫很大，對臺灣的石化產業未來的影響也很重要，特別是乙烯，委員都很清楚，所以我也跟產業界做了很多次的溝通，同時謝謝委員支持，也跟地方政府做一些溝通。我想這個計畫確實是很大，也謝謝國發會幫我們審完，院裡面現在還有一些意見和議題在請我們確認，確認之後院裡面會走後面的程序。"],["林委員岱樺：院長，我們期待，我們一起努力，希望在您榮退的時候能夠給我們高雄一個大禮物。","最後一點時間，我要提出本席的感言。院長，三黨不過半，本席看您的質詢，我只有簡單一句話，我一定要表達我對您的敬重之意。三黨不過半，可能很多委員帶著仇恨值對您質詢，菩薩低眉是為慈悲眾生，我覺得目前您在總質詢的應對，我只能講您在實現天主的大愛，所以我深深的一鞠躬，感謝您這樣為國付出，以及您的人格特質，我覺得都是我這個晚輩要跟您學習的。"],["陳院長建仁：不敢當。"],["林委員岱樺：謝謝您的付出，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員岱樺的質詢。","接下來請陳委員雪生質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳秉叡","丁學忠","黃珊珊","林岱樺","陳雪生","張啓楷","徐富癸","謝衣鳯","林國成","蔡其昌","萬美玲","黃秀芳","呂玉玲"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2024-02-27"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00011","1130401_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130401_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.5153437499999995,"end":6.915968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.523468750000001,"end":9.008468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.969718750000002,"end":16.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.26471875,"end":18.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.28534375,"end":27.874718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.21221875,"end":50.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.62221875,"end":72.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.672843750000006,"end":51.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.21784375,"end":104.03159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.30159375000001,"end":109.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有這個建議的時程。我們要強調文明在前12年我們就建立犬貓公益學庫的機制。"},{"start":289.688,"end":309.535,"text":"三、四年落實道德學研合作研發的機制五、六年鼓勵公益完成了永續經營血庫的平台本期期待的非營利動物血液的基金會能夠在六年後來落實好這樣的具體建議政府支持政策的給力提升了動物平權的觀念"},{"start":310.015,"end":323.787,"text":"學研機構的合作讓我們的有一個示範的學部及透明學員的媒合平台。一貓狗因為有這樣的保障,民眾絕對有感政府的進步,重視寵物貓狗的醫療和動物福利。"},{"start":326.389,"end":342.78,"text":"院長您怎麼看這個議題呢?這個是講得很完整很佩服我想確實對於寵物學庫的建立是相當的重要我們一定會努力來推動那這一個部分農業部其實已經開始有一些著手"},{"start":343.18,"end":343.8,"text":"事經更新,課不容緩。"},{"start":359.631,"end":385.528,"text":"好,這個施政更新就在本期的全區但是它是全國提供以西的重要的一個場區施政更新下游的產業鏈它是以主產以西為主以西有什麼重量它提供了高質化材料、基礎材料、高質化的材料所提供的5G材料、太陽能、光電、國防應用、電動車材、儲能材料、風電材料、半導體材料在基礎的部分提供了民生工業、機能性布料"},{"start":387.208,"end":412.353,"text":"銀髮族、機車業、醫療材料、鞋類、防疫物資。好這樣的總共國內乙烯的總需求量平均400萬噸分別由中油跟台塑我們的產所需量都是相當的大概都200、300彼此這樣子的一個數量但是台塑是完整的自己自主提供他給他的集團但我們的中油所提供的乙烯卻要對從國外來進口"},{"start":414.173,"end":428.001,"text":"好,那這個我們的老市卿啊,這個老市卿目前是沒有辦法面對新挑戰的,不管在ESG減碳跟產能的需求。我們中油的市卿在泰華的選區,在本市的選區已經運轉了40年了。"},{"start":429.982,"end":446.941,"text":"我們高雄歷經的氣爆、死案公安頻傳,高雄鄉親對新四季當然有所期待。這事情當中有多危險呢?原物料及產品都是亦然亦報的危險物品或毒化物。高雄居民已無法承受重大公安再度的發聲。"},{"start":447.782,"end":452.846,"text":"好,這新四期原版的規劃是2017年購地。2022年還平,要到2028年投產。這總共中油要赤字823億,針對31公頃。好,但是我們現在延宕了。"},{"start":465.256,"end":488.605,"text":"嚴當在我們縣院的版本是什麼呢?我們的這個建制的預算增加了239億,總共到106億而已。人民的期待落空,產業的需求無法滿足。就算今年在行政院有真的核定的話,今年來進行環評也要6到7年後,2030年才正式的投站。"},{"start":489.085,"end":510.86,"text":"好,我們家屬新司卿是創造山營的本期要感謝經濟部跟中友其實部長是非常的努力在做地方的遊說不管是對我們高雄市政府或者是地方民意的整合所以今天戴華是帶著我林岱鄉親的民意帶著我高雄市民鄉親的期待來建議我們行政院"},{"start":511.3,"end":530.528,"text":"如果我們能夠趕快的啟動新世青,可能早日達成自己自主的目標,我在這建設過程當中創造了4萬5千個就業機會。完成之後,可以增加600個就業機會,帶動地方發展。最重要的,能夠促進產業升級,落實人員轉型,導入智能化的設計與管理。"},{"start":531.488,"end":543.042,"text":"引進低碳的製成使用低碳零碳的燃料有助於污染的降低還給我高雄市民乾淨的居住環境。好具體的要求行政院"},{"start":543.652,"end":572.586,"text":"要加速核定事情再造。院長這時候是最佳的時間點了。我3到10月也就在此時此刻各部會在以施政計畫編列概算7、8月這個組計總處就會整到各部會明年度的預算下半年10月開始我們本院就會審查明年的預算若行政院在這個第一季的時候會核定事情更新的計畫該計畫的時程也就會相比現在抱怨的時程"},{"start":573.286,"end":588.12,"text":"再慢兩年, 院長在您這個光榮融退的之前是否能夠送給高雄市民這樣的一個符合我們ESG近年轉型的這樣的一個大禮物呢?"},{"start":588.12,"end":588.14,"text":"院長"},{"start":589.031,"end":613.878,"text":"我們會來加速來評估然後來核定有沒有可能呢因為其實這評估很久了重點還是民意的整合所以其實地方政府包括我在地居民其實是整合好的這當中中油包括我們部長這邊是花了很多的心力本席也才敢在這邊這個國會殿堂上來做這樣建議所以是不是請院長能夠"},{"start":615.538,"end":623.387,"text":"議員長"},{"start":624.842,"end":647.473,"text":"現在國發會已經通過了國發會已經9月的時候報院所以現在已經在院長基本上是在你的院本部了所以就等你採取了我們請經濟部稍微說明一下謝謝委員那確實這個是因為計畫很大那影響對台灣的石化產業未來影響也很重要特別是以西委員都很清楚"},{"start":647.893,"end":665.504,"text":"那所以我也跟產業界做了很多次的溝通那地方就像委員也謝謝委員支持那也跟地方政府有做一些溝通那我想這一個的大計畫那確實是計畫是很大所以也謝謝國會幫我們審完那院裡面現在還有一些意見議題再跟我們請我們確認所以確認之後院裡面會走後面的程序"},{"start":674.059,"end":695.473,"text":"院長我們期待我們一起努力能夠在您農退的時候給我們高雄一個大禮物那最後一點時間本席的感言這個院長這個三黨不過半在本席這個看您的質詢我只有簡單的一句話我一定要表達我對你的這個敬重之意是一個三黨不過半那可能"},{"start":696.394,"end":722.623,"text":"很多委員帶著仇恨值對你的質詢這個菩薩第一枚是為慈悲眾生我覺得目前您的質詢總質詢的應對我只能講你在實現天主的大愛所以我深深的一句說感謝對您的這樣的為國的付出以及您的這個人格特質都是我覺得都是我個人完備要跟你學習的謝謝你的付出謝謝"},{"start":730.388,"end":733.812,"text":"謝謝林委員拜話的質詢。接下來我們請陳委員寫聲、質詢。"}]}},{"id":"149145","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149145","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e96810942880aa20aaaeae4c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a62c7d51a1cd78116b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"09:49:05 - 10:19:48","影片長度":"00:30:43","會議時間":"2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-27","duration":1843,"end_time":"2024-02-27T10:19:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-27T09:49:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":257,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（9時49分）請院長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：黃委員早，恭喜你擔任立委。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝院長。今天是我第一次在立法院質詢，我想問一下院長，人民的生命財產大概是你最重要的任務了吧？"],["陳院長建仁：是！"],["黃委員珊珊：人民的生命財產安全包括前幾天大家爭執得非常多的食品安全，當然也有財產上的安全。"],["陳院長建仁：是！"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，您也當過副總統，現在是行政院長，您覺得這8年來臺灣是不是已經成為詐騙之島？"],["陳院長建仁：確實，全世界的詐騙趨勢都有在增加，特別是在COVID-19期間，如果根據國際相關組織的發布，在已開發國家當中都受到詐騙的困擾，臺灣也不例外。"],["黃委員珊珊：臺灣的狀況應該是更嚴重，也就是說我們已經……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，如果最嚴重的情形是新加坡。"],["黃委員珊珊：新加坡？好，當然我們不要跟它比差啦！但是所有的臺灣人應該都接過詐騙電話，您接過嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有，因為我比較忙，很少接電話。"],["黃委員珊珊：大概只要是正常人都有接過詐騙，或者是相關的訊息，或者是自己的親朋好友大概都有詐騙的經驗。"],["陳院長建仁：是，我的親朋好友就有。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以詐騙在臺灣，今天部長在旁邊，臺灣的詐騙狀況，法務部你覺得滿意嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們還有努力的空間。"],["黃委員珊珊：原因是什麼？為什麼這麼多，然後你還有努力的空間？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為每一次都有新興的詐騙手法，我們一定要針對他們新興的手法來因應。"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是說詐騙的手法太新了，新到我們跟不上是嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：等我們發現的時候，我們就要擬具一個具體的作法來因應。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以部長，我想臺灣是詐騙之島，這個名字並不好聽。第二個，詐騙的猖獗已經成為百姓的痛點，尤其是剛剛過去的總統大選，其實每一個陣營，包括更多相關的人，包括立法院都一樣非常重視這件事情，因為這是剛剛講的人民的財產安全，人民有免於恐懼的自由，所以詐騙猖獗不應該成為臺灣政府的代名詞。","詐騙的數量，院長可以看一下這個數字，這數字非常的驚人。其實在105年到現在，就是蔡英文總統上任之後，其實在8年期間，8年的成長率從原來大概每一年是二萬三千多件，一直到112年大概是3萬7,000件。它的數量不斷地飆升，然後金額從幾十億，三十、四十億，到五十、六十億，現在已經到88億。所以院長，這個數字尤其是這3年，不知道為什麼這3年特別的嚴重。"],["陳院長建仁：所以委員，我剛才才跟你講說，如果按照國際的狀況來看，全世界都是這個趨勢……"],["黃委員珊珊：往上的趨勢。"],["陳院長建仁：那我們的上升趨勢大概是增加60%，那其他國家是有增加，但是我要跟委員說明的是，詐騙的金額確實是有增加，但是我們在打詐的努力當中，我們追回來的這一些金額，還有在銀行攔櫃的金額，大概有一百……"],["黃委員珊珊：這是因為黑數增加，還是因為你抓到的比較多？"],["陳院長建仁：我們抓到的多以外，另外我們也因為抓到以後，就有一些詐騙的金額有拿進來……"],["黃委員珊珊：我相信你因為有打詐，所以抓到的比較多……"],["陳院長建仁：然後再加上銀行櫃檯的阻詐，我們阻詐的情形大概有一百二十幾億。"],["黃委員珊珊：我相信大家都非常努力，但是現在的問題是你看到地檢署，昨天我們開過記者會，我想部長大概也看到了，就是電信詐欺3年之內成長了360%，也就是說檢察署的人力負擔真的是相當重。第二個，它的數量從3萬4,000件漲到16萬件，這個比例是非正常的狀況，所以就所謂的電信詐欺，目前大概是臺灣最大宗的一塊對吧？蔡部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員的關心，檢察官助理去年行政院也支持我們有100名的檢察官助理來幫忙打詐，而且今年又答應給我們150名，所以對檢察官打詐的效率來講，一定會提升的。"],["黃委員珊珊：檢察官助理在民國88年其實就有提案了，但是當時只通過了法官助理還有檢察事務官，那二十多年來檢察官助理其實在檢改，包括所謂的檢改團體，他們一直都在主張。現在不管是打詐也好，或者是其他的刑事偵查、偵查犯罪也好，其實相對檢察官的壓力是非常大的，所以檢察官助理目前為止入法了沒？"],["蔡部長清祥：還沒有訂定在法院組織法，不過我們先能夠因應現在的需要……"],["黃委員珊珊：為什麼你要擺這麼久呢？我剛剛講已經從88年到現在。"],["蔡部長清祥：我們上個會期已經有提出來修正的法院組織法草案，可惜沒有通過，所以我想這個會期如果委員支持的話，我們希望儘快能夠通過為法制化的檢察官助理。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以院長……"],["陳院長建仁：目前我們是行政上先來加強他們。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以院長，明年114年還會繼續給他們預算嗎？現在100個，還要再給他們150個？"],["陳院長建仁：對，250個。"],["黃委員珊珊：大概是什麼時候要入法？你什麼時候要送到立法院來？"],["陳院長建仁：入法就像剛才我們部長講的，我們也曾經有過這樣的努力，我們會研擬以後，來看看這樣的一個合適性，當然需要我們來開相關的學者專家研議……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，您的看守時間到520，您能不能在您任期內把這個案子送到立法院來？"],["陳院長建仁：可以。"],["黃委員珊珊：應該可以吧？都會銜那麼久了。"],["蔡部長清祥：是，我們馬上提出來，希望委員能夠大力支持。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們會支持，而且我們希望你們儘快送進來，能夠在院長卸任的時候，留下這個最重要的一個任務。"],["蔡部長清祥：不過跟委員說明，因為法院組織法是司法院所主管的法規，那會受到司法院的耽擱，不過委員提案了，當然我們儘快配合來支持。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果它是重要的，就不應該受到耽擱，如果司法院要耽擱，就請司法院快一點表示意見。"],["陳院長建仁：對，當然！但是……"],["黃委員珊珊：而不是我們把責任推給司法院，好嗎？部長，這是你的責任啦。"],["陳院長建仁：我想五院都要互相尊重啦。"],["黃委員珊珊：是啊！"],["陳院長建仁：五院都要互相尊重，所以司法院如果有更多的……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果要做就不會有人耽擱嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對，所以我們要好好跟它溝通，瞭解他們如果要耽擱的理由在哪裡。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果這個案子之前已經編了預算，也給了100個，表示它是重要的。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來你又要再給150個，表示它非常的重要。"],["陳院長建仁：所以我想……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是我們現在還在說要跟司法院溝通，那行政院的立場呢？"],["陳院長建仁：事情的解決有兩個，一個就是立法，另外一個叫做從行政的角度嘛，行政院的角度，我們就先讓它充實它的人力……"],["黃委員珊珊：我需要的就是時間啦，我想大家都可以爭議，現在就是時間的問題。"],["陳院長建仁：要立法，立法需要司法院、行政院，還要有司法院，有三個院要一起來努力啦。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我才說嘛，假設您在520任內，是不是完成這件事是您的一個任務嘛，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我當然樂觀其成。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長可以承諾盡力在520之前……"],["陳院長建仁：我盡力來推動，我盡力！"],["黃委員珊珊：好！因為這個案子看起來沒有爭議，而且行政院也樂觀其成，預算也有了，所以不要再說程序的問題，好嗎？這是第一個問題，所以我希望打詐不會只有一個打詐辦公室，打詐是全民一起，第二個，要給它武器、要給它人力，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們會。委員，打詐不是只有打詐辦公室，打詐辦公室是coordinate，內政部、法務部、通傳會、金管會統統在裡面……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我要說的是，人民在看你的決心，人民在看你的作法。"],["陳院長建仁：我們很有決心。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，要給它充足的人力跟設備，它才能夠讓臺灣脫離所謂詐騙之島的惡名，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們有決心。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我們也希望你在520之前完成這件事。","好，下一個問題是稅制改革，我想院長您也在行政院非常久……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有很久，才一年。"],["黃委員珊珊：針對整個財政狀況、臺灣的財政狀況，您覺得狀況如何？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得臺灣從COVID-19開始以後，再加上全世界供應鏈的改變，臺灣的經濟成長在這幾年確實是比以往來說來得好很多，而且歲入歲出盈餘，委員可能也知道從2017年開始就是正的，然後最近幾年都到3,000億……"],["黃委員珊珊：目前的財政狀況是相當不錯，因為出口也很好，然後經濟發展也不錯，但是臺灣針對所謂的稅制改革，其實從蔡政府上任之後，一直提出有一些稅務需要改，我這邊列出來的就是長期以來大家在討論的，叫做娛樂稅、貨物稅、印花稅。我還記得很清楚，蘇貞昌院長的時候，在2019年大力說要廢除印花稅，我當時代表臺北市政府來立法院跟相關的單位陳情，因為印花稅是重要的地方稅，如果要取消，不是不可以，而且它也是一個比較落後的稅制，但是中央在稅制改革上面，針對娛樂稅、貨物稅還有印花稅這種已經不合時宜的稅制，它的改革一直有提出來，但是到現在為止沒有看到結果，8年了，8年的狀況是怎樣，你要不要告訴我一下？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們請部長說明一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明一下，印花稅的部分，大概一年收取的是170億，是地方政府非常重要的稅源，這個部分我們也邀請地方政府來開過會……"],["黃委員珊珊：當時為什麼說要廢掉呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：他們都認為這個部分是他們很重要的稅源，所以他們不贊成廢除，我想這個部分涉及到財政……"],["黃委員珊珊：地方政府不是不贊成，地方政府是需要有替代財源。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，要有替代財源，雖然是有替代財源，但是對他們來說，這個還是財政自主很重要的……"],["黃委員珊珊：是一筆大錢。"],["莊部長翠雲：這是因為地方稅，這是地方自主的……"],["黃委員珊珊：為什麼蘇院長在還沒有經過審慎思考的時候就說要廢呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想，另外委員提到的就是說……"],["黃委員珊珊：你要回答我的問題啊！你們要廢的理由是什麼？因為它是一個不合時宜的稅制，對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，它有一定的時間，但目前來說還是地方很重要的一個稅源。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為它是1934年（民國23年）時候定的法。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：它是一個非常落後的稅制。第二個娛樂稅的部分，以前它是一種奢侈、一種高消費，但是現在的娛樂稅已經是電影、演唱會、球賽，它已經是人民基本的日常生活，它沒有什麼特別的高消費。第三個是貨物稅，貨物稅是嚴重地違反所謂租稅的中立性，不是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以貨物稅這也是非常非常落伍的。"],["莊部長翠雲：娛樂稅的部分，當然因為隨著整個經濟的發展情況，娛樂的項目是不是帶有所謂的奢侈性質已經有所不同……"],["黃委員珊珊：是的。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，它的稅的項目以及它的稅率事實上是可以做檢討的。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，部長，我沒有時間給你講太多，我的意思是，這三個要檢討，檢討了8年檢討出了什麼東西來？有沒有？沒有。"],["莊部長翠雲：娛樂稅的部分，事實上我們已經做過檢討，貨物稅的部分，事實上現在是引導消費者朝一個方向……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我必須打斷你……"],["莊部長翠雲：尤其是節能的部分有所謂貨物稅的減徵。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我今天要問的是，8年部分的癥結在於，我們從來沒有好好檢討過剛剛講的這些稅，如果要取消，它的替代財源是在哪裡？你們有想過替代財源，有找到替代財源了嗎？還是繼續在研議中？還是之後說要廢，但是反正沒有替代財源，我們就隨便說說就好。"],["陳院長建仁：我想，任何財稅的改革，中央、地方都需要一起來研議，然後各界也希望……"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意，所以當時在廢印花稅的時候，沒有跟地方政府討論就直接說要廢除，所以我們當時臺北市政府才要帶著人到立法院、到行政院來陳情，也就是說，這件事情是重要的，稅制改革是重要的……"],["陳院長建仁：所以稅制改革需要時間。"],["黃委員珊珊：要跟地方政府溝通，要幫它找到替代財源。"],["陳院長建仁：是，我同意。"],["黃委員珊珊：這些不合時宜的稅，應該改、應該要檢討，但是需要溝通跟具體的作為。院長，這個癥結就是，執政8年檢討的結果目前還沒看到。第二個，你可不可以給我一個具體調整的方向？還有影響程度跟調整的角度？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得你這樣講是一竿子打到底，我沒有辦法同意，所以在這8年來，我們有很多稅制的改革。"],["黃委員珊珊：是啊！但這三個稅沒有改啊！"],["陳院長建仁：不是像你講的，一竿子打到底，我覺得這樣子太武斷了。"],["黃委員珊珊：這三個稅是不是要找替代財源，部長，我今天的要求就是，既然討論這麼久，檢討的方向給我一個時間表。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，跟委員報告，這個部分我們都有做檢討，就如同委員說要尊重地方政府的意見，地方政府的意見是非常地分歧，縱使找替代財源，它也認為這個破壞了它的財政自主，因為它是地方稅，就是要讓它有自主權。"],["黃委員珊珊：我明白，所以我們在幫你找替代財源。接下去我要跟你說的是，10年前蔡總統在他的十年政綱說要建立綠色的稅制，2011年他其實就提出了所謂的綠色稅制。","剛剛講到貨物稅，其實它嚴重地違反了所謂的租稅中立，還有它有邏輯的問題。為什麼？因為如果它是「電視」，它就是有特殊的貨物稅；如果它是「顯示器」，它屬於電腦、IC產品，它就免貨物稅，這是一個很奇怪的現象。也就是說，這些綠色的稅制，現在2024了，綠色稅制要在2026歐盟要進行相關的碳稅之前，我們現在就必須要準備，兩位同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是，有在準備。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。委員，這部分今年開始，環境部的部分，已經依照氣變法開始在徵收「碳費」。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在的氣候變遷法是碳費先行，碳稅再慢慢過渡？"],["莊部長翠雲：碳費先行，對。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是事實上在歐盟，大概2026就到了，現在已經2024了，然後碳費的部分，它其實並不是所謂的大家都有，它可能是比較特殊的大企業；第二個，它不是全民；第三個最重要的是，它可能沒有辦法接軌國際，是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：碳費的部分，我覺得跟這個部分……氣變法的規定，其實它是專款專用，跟碳稅是不同的。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯。"],["莊部長翠雲：專款專用是要達到減碳的目的，所以我們是碳費先行。至於碳稅未來怎麼樣接軌碳費，當然我覺得，等到碳費實施一段時間以後，也許可以再做一個研議。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，也就是過程是一個，院長，但是我要說的是臺灣政府必須針對碳稅開始做因應了，因為它將會衝擊產業的出口，最重要的是我們透過碳費大概很難引導人民在生活上面做一些改變，但是如果碳稅，全民都必須要配合的話，這個可能會是將來臺灣可以面對氣候變遷還有所謂的產業轉型才能夠一次到位，也就是碳費先行、碳稅過渡我沒有意見，但是我們必須要及早因應……"],["陳院長建仁：現在……"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是綠色稅制包括剛剛的貨物稅都可以夾帶在碳稅檢討的部分一起來檢討，你同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們會來就委員的建議做相關的研議啦！但是目前確實是從碳費先行這個方式來做，我們環境部也……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我們也只有2年的時間了，這個時間不可能再讓大家慢慢研議，所以我的意思是剛剛講的替代財源，碳稅會是你替代財源考慮的對象之一……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個方式現在就必須要痛定思痛，有時候比較先進的立法會造成一時的痛苦，但是它可以引領人民生活習慣的改變。我必須講一個，就像臺北市，我們以前訂了一個垃圾費隨袋徵收，它剛開始會非常痛苦，但是它可以引領人民生活的改變。同樣的，節能減碳也一樣如此，如果我們的碳稅盡早讓人民知道他的生活必須要改變，節能減碳成為國家未來生活成本上面的一部分，這些事情是可以引領他的生活習慣改變，3位同意嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：碳稅可以改變人民對於節能減碳上面的努力，確實有這樣的一個力量……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯！"],["陳院長建仁：但是節能減碳只靠碳稅可能還不夠啦！怎麼樣來加強有關於節能減碳的教育，還有有關於其他的配套，都很重要……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我現在給你二個建議：第一個、反正我們替代財源要找，碳稅是你可以找的替代財源其中之一；第二個、碳稅即將是面對國際的接軌，同時可以改變人民的生活，它必須是我們接下來很重要的一個規劃目標，這也是我相信臺灣身為國際社會的一分子必須要走的路。院長，這是我覺得在您的看守期間可以把這個方向明確的指出來……"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝你的建議。"],["黃委員珊珊：還有我們環境部，這也是一個非常重要的任務，部長，要不要講一下？"],["陳院長建仁：部長。"],["薛部長富盛：非常謝謝黃委員的建議，事實上，我們和財政部莊部長這邊都有保持密切的聯繫，就如同剛剛黃委員所提到的，碳費先行，接著就碳稅，當然在碳費的實施過程當中對產業也會造成很大的影響，我們也跟社會來做密集的溝通，希望能夠很順利地把……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我說其實要做都要先溝通，這是一個很重要的過程，重點是政治的核心真的是執行力啦！在這邊要跟院長抱怨一下，我們臺北市在2022年6月份其實就把淨零排放的管理自治條例送到行政院，等於是在二年多前我們就送過來，光在行政院核定的過程大概就1年半，這個裡面有非常多所謂淨零碳排的路徑，包括可能將來在臺北市的旅館，它就不可以再放所謂一次性的用品，類似這樣的東西是需要跟民間溝通的，也就是一個法律的推展必須要事先而且要提早跟企業、跟市民來做溝通，但是一個法案躺在行政院1年半才核定，有很多要跟地方溝通的事就會耽誤到。院長，所以我不知道為什麼一個法案要核定個1年半？"],["陳院長建仁：因為你已經離開臺北市政府，我想我們請部長來說明為什麼我們會需要一段時間來跟地方做溝通。"],["薛部長富盛：是，我想非常謝謝黃委員在擔任臺北市副市長的時候在2022年7月5日就把臺北市的淨零排放送到院來……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為我們的市議會非常認真，很快就通過了。"],["薛部長富盛：但是因為我們的氣候變遷因應法事實上是去年2月15日才通過，氣候變遷法通過之後，還有12個子法，地方的自治條例也必須在子法和碳盤查、碳費等等相關先公告之後才能夠去審，所以這一點可能要請委員……"],["黃委員珊珊：我要回到的是說，像這種淨零碳排的事情，我們大概很早就已經知道國際趨勢的方式，連一個地方政府都跑得這麼快，我的意思是說，尤其是剛剛升格的環境部，將來應該是中央跑得要比地方快一點。"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：等你的母法出來、子法出來，地方都等不及了，所以我的意思是說，今天既然環境部已經升格，它就要變成行政院裡面淨零碳排的領頭羊，它要帶著國家朝向這個方向更高的位階，甚至可能要院長來做領導，整個行政院要一起配合。當然，氣候變遷法要透過立法院，所以我相信立法院也非常配合有關這個部分的轉型。"],["陳院長建仁：委員你講到重點了。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這三樣都需要大家的幫忙，我的意思是，將來希望的是院長下來帶領整個國家走向淨零碳排。"],["陳院長建仁：我一定努力來這樣做，至少在這幾個月內，但是很重要的，我想委員你講到一個重點，我們希望未來在淨零碳排相關的立法過程，能夠得到朝野黨團的支持，讓這個立法能夠更順利、更快，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：好的，院長，我覺得這個很重要。接下來還有一個小問題，但這個問題我覺得也是地方政府很在乎的，即財劃法，蔡總統也說過財劃法要修正，也說了10年，這8年的執政有沒有送過財劃法的修正案到立法院？"],["陳院長建仁：基本上我想財劃法的修正不只是蔡總統的這一段時間……"],["黃委員珊珊：是所有的行政院長都說過要修的，對吧？"],["陳院長建仁：而且是歷任的總統都有提到財劃法。"],["黃委員珊珊：那為什麼都不做呢？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這個不做……"],["黃委員珊珊：又是地方有意見？"],["陳院長建仁：不是，委員，你當過副市長，你很清楚，這個需要各縣市，比如說六都……"],["黃委員珊珊：明白了，我們都明白，但是就是有沒有人要做？第一個，財劃法現在的問題我想院長也很清楚……"],["陳院長建仁：當然，委員，我還沒有講完，我可以講一下嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：我的時間只剩7分鐘，我還有一個題目。"],["陳院長建仁：我們認為財劃法是很重要，是不是讓部長簡單講1分鐘？"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，很簡單，財劃法的問題是分配不均、發展失衡、人均差異很大，像臺北大概是兩萬四，新北的人大概只分到一萬二，更嚴重的是像新竹縣，只分到九千多，最重要的是中央掌握了這個錢跟權，然後地方低頭，所以它就變成一個魔戒，到現在為止，沒有一個中央的官員或中央的首長願意下放這個權力，你同意嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，財劃法雖然沒有修，但是中央透過中央統籌分配稅款跟一般性的補助款，對地方的財政大力挹注，加上地方政府的努力，讓財政狀態已經有所改善。"],["黃委員珊珊：我只要問一個簡單的問題，要不要修？"],["莊部長翠雲：至於財劃法的修正，院長已經指示要徵詢各界的意見，凝聚共識，所以財政部也擬具了六項的修法原則，第一個就是提升財政自主，第二個是調劑財政盈虛，第三個是劃一分配基礎，以及精進分配機制，然後保障地方財源以及既有的財源不減少，在這六個原則之下，有關分配的指標也已經請各地方政府提出意見，不過目前各地方政府提出來的意見都非常的分歧，差距很大……"],["陳院長建仁：分岐。"],["黃委員珊珊：當然，因為你要分錢給它……"],["莊部長翠雲：所以這部分我們還是會再跟他們討論，凝聚共識。"],["黃委員珊珊：其實你只要立原則就好。第二個，院長，我覺得很簡單，態度上……"],["陳院長建仁：態度上我們有……"],["黃委員珊珊：面積、人口還有財政的貢獻度，還有儘量把地方稅留在地方，這幾個原則把它定下來就好了。第二個，我們只要表示一個態度，這件事情不要再成為口號，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：21個縣市來的意見真的相當分歧。"],["黃委員珊珊：那就不要每天說我要修財劃法，就直接說我會好好分配就好了，也就是說不要承諾一些空話，這才是我的問題。結論是我們希望有一個制度性的改革方案，第二個，我們希望至少有個方向，連馬英九任內都送了一個版本，你們連版本都沒有。"],["陳院長建仁：那為什麼會沒有通過呢？我想就是因為大家有意見。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果長期溝通16年都沒通過的話，如果現在是你執政，你就必須要去處理啊！我們又沒有執政。"],["陳院長建仁：還是要溝通啊！處理的過程就是剛才講的，我們已經有進步，有六個原則出來……"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望看守內閣不是空轉內閣，該做的事情就去做。"],["陳院長建仁：不會是空轉。"],["黃委員珊珊：第一個，剛剛講的不合時宜的稅要調整。第二個，碳稅要開始研議。第三個，財劃法的方向還是要交代，即使蔡總統要卸任了，賴總統上任以後，一樣要把這個問題跟全民交代清楚，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們有在研議。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，我只剩4分鐘了，我還有一個比較重要的問題要來問一下院長。院長，這8年來，你覺得臺灣的居住正義落實的如何？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得蔡總統當時講的一些關於居住正義的事情，確實有認真在做，像是社會住宅的部分或者……"],["黃委員珊珊：你覺得效益如何？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得效果應該是不錯，但是對於……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是臺灣為什麼還是低薪高房價、年輕人痛苦不堪？"],["陳院長建仁：我想房價不可能在很短的時間內會有很大的變動……"],["黃委員珊珊：好啦，我們看一下房價，這個應該是部長要上來。"],["陳院長建仁：但是我覺得要解決臺灣的問題就好像你們所提出來的一樣，要從社會住宅來著手。"],["黃委員珊珊：8年來住宅的價格上漲了32%，可是員工的薪水只上漲10%，也就是薪水成長趕不上房價。第二個部分是，8年執政，所得比從8.97變成9.86，也就是說，可能要再多1年不吃不喝才能買房。聯徵中心也查到買房首購的年齡往後挪，從30到35歲到現在首購要35到40歲，臺北市當然更是嚴重，所得比是15.67，也是世界級的，名列前茅。另外，平均地權新法當時是希望能夠打房，可是後來又有新青安貸款，其實又催促了買氣，也就是說，我們在打房跟催促買氣的情況下，其實兩個政策好像有稍微互相矛盾。比較嚴重的就是，審計部也說，房價高，以青年負擔的能力，即使提供更高的補助、更高額度的貸款、延長貸款年限，還有補貼他更多的利息，但是購屋的負擔還是非常沉重。這不是我講，是審計部講的。另外，我們發放了房貸支持金3萬，但是好像也沒有辦法減輕民眾購屋的負擔。院長，我們做了很多耶！但是為什麼還是這麼嚴重？"],["陳院長建仁：我想我們做了很多但為什麼還這麼嚴重，就像你剛才講的房價仍然……"],["黃委員珊珊：繼續往上飆。"],["陳院長建仁：繼續往上飆，另外一個很重要的事情，我覺得我們現在要解決臺灣住的問題，特別是年輕人住的問題的話，應該要從社會住宅的角度來擴建，這樣才是一個最能夠劍及履及，而且能夠做到更好的地方。"],["黃委員珊珊：另外，除了買房買不起之外，其實民眾現在還有一個問題是，那我去租屋好了。你看一下租房子的狀況，現在83%的上班族要付1萬塊，但是新鮮人的薪水大概是3.4萬，也就是三分之一要拿來繳房租。"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們才會推動社會住宅，然後……"],["黃委員珊珊：租金補貼。"],["陳院長建仁：有租金補貼，再加上所謂的包租代管。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是你知道很多年輕人是拿不到租金補貼的嗎？因為他的房東不准他去申請。"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分，我想你可能還不瞭解最近的狀況，我們是不是請部長簡單講一下？"],["黃委員珊珊：如果他去申請了，他就只有選擇搬家。部長，這個我想你心裡很清楚啦！"],["林部長右昌：委員提到的這個問題，我們在去年的時候其實已經有大幅解決，當然可能還有一些狀況，不過跟前年的狀況相比，目前已經大幅改善。"],["黃委員珊珊：有好一些了？"],["林部長右昌：大幅改善。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我的時間也不多了，我現在要說的是，租屋市場的黑市還是臺灣一個很嚴重的問題，即使住宅法修正，我們可以拿去申請租金補貼，但是他可能下一次續約的時候就被迫搬走了。第二個是他可能也沒有辦法申請戶口，所以所有在臺北北漂的孩子其實都很難在臺北享受社會福利，所以我覺得讓租屋黑市能夠陽光化才是內政部接下來應該要做的事。林部長，怎麼樣讓租屋黑市陽光化是你最重要的任務吧？"],["林部長右昌：是，對於租屋的透明度，其實這幾年也進步很多，到目前為止我們能夠掌握到租屋的部分已經超過50%。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個部分我們再跟部長聯絡，再請您跟我們做個說明，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：好，沒問題。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員珊珊的質詢。","接下來向院會報告，我們休息10分鐘，謝謝。","休息（10時19分）","繼續開會（10時30分）"],["主席：報告院會，現在繼續開會。接下來我們請林委員岱樺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳秉叡","丁學忠","黃珊珊","林岱樺","陳雪生","張啓楷","徐富癸","謝衣鳯","林國成","蔡其昌","萬美玲","黃秀芳","呂玉玲"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2024-02-27"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00011","1130401_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130401_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2.73096875,"end":3.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.4353437499999995,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11.489093750000002,"end":13.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13.497218750000002,"end":15.083468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15.657218750000002,"end":17.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17.20971875,"end":17.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17.36159375,"end":20.078468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20.348468750000002,"end":21.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21.563468750000002,"end":24.870968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":26.06909375,"end":26.355968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26.96346875,"end":29.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":29.511593750000003,"end":32.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":33.392843750000004,"end":43.922843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":35.58659375,"end":35.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":44.51346875,"end":59.532218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":60.156593750000006,"end":62.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":62.09721875,"end":62.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":62.43471875,"end":62.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":62.46846875000001,"end":65.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":62.55284375,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":65.05034375000001,"end":68.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":68.40846875,"end":72.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":73.03221875,"end":75.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":75.14159375,"end":80.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":81.13221875,"end":82.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":83.25846875,"end":86.36346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":85.08096875000001,"end":86.80221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":86.61659375,"end":93.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.87284375,"end":95.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":94.05846875,"end":94.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":96.55596875,"end":97.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":97.56846875000001,"end":100.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.41596875,"end":110.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":109.04346875,"end":113.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.10596875,"end":114.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.00034375000001,"end":120.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":121.17659375000001,"end":121.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":122.49284375,"end":126.57659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":126.88034375000001,"end":127.43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他的數量從3萬4千件漲到16萬件這個比例這是非正常的狀況所以就所謂電信詐欺目前大概是台灣最大宗的愉快對吧猜不著"},{"start":267.769,"end":283.861,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那檢察官助理去年行政院也支持我們有一百名的檢察官助理來幫忙打詐那而且今年又答應給我們150名所以對檢察官這個打詐的效率來講一定會提升的"},{"start":284.605,"end":313.892,"text":"所以檢察官助理是在民國88年其實就有提案了但是當時只通過了法官助理還有檢察事務館那20多年來檢察官助理其實在檢改包括所謂的檢改團體他們一直都在主張那現在打詐不管是打詐也好或者是其他的刑事偵查犯罪也好其實相對檢察官的壓力是非常大的所以檢察官助理目前為止入法了沒"},{"start":314.69,"end":316.191,"text":"目前我們是行政上先來加強他們"},{"start":343.772,"end":369.894,"text":"所以院長明年113年明年還會有繼續給他們預算嗎?現在100個嘛還要再給他們150個對250個對所以但是什麼時候要入法?你什麼時候要送到立法院來?我想入法就像剛才我們部長講的嘛我們也曾經有過這樣的努力那我們會來研議以後來看看這樣的一個合適性當然需要我們來開相關的"},{"start":372.316,"end":379.011,"text":"您的看守時間到520,您能不能在你任期內把這個案子送到立法院來?"},{"start":381.052,"end":408.437,"text":"應該可以吧,應該都會寫那麼久了。是,我們馬上提出來,那希望委員能夠大力支持。我們會支持,而且我們希望你們盡快送進來,能夠在院長卸任的時候留下這個最重要的一個任務。不過跟委員說明,因為法院組織法是司法院所主管的法規,那會受到司法院的耽擱,不過委員提案了,當然我們盡快來配合來支持。如果他是重要的,就不應該受到耽擱。"},{"start":409.497,"end":428.505,"text":"如果司法院要耽擱,就請司法院快一點表示意見。而不是我們把責任推給司法院。部長這是你的責任。所以司法院如果他有更多...如果要做就不會有人耽擱嘛。"},{"start":429.325,"end":446.631,"text":"所以我們要好好跟他溝通。瞭解他們如果要耽擱的理由在哪裡。 院長如果這個案子之前已經編了預算也給了100個表示他是重要的。接下來你又要再給150個表示他非常的重要。但是我們現在還在說要通過律師法院溝通那行政院的立場。"},{"start":447.811,"end":466.803,"text":"事情的解決有兩個嘛一個就是立法嘛另外一個就是說從行政的角度嘛行政院的角度我們就先給他充實他的人力我需要的是時間啦我想大家都沒有爭議我現在就是時間了還要有司法院有三個院要一起來努力啦所以我才說嘛這是您如果假設您520"},{"start":467.924,"end":492.166,"text":"我當然樂觀其成我當然樂觀其成我盡力來推動我盡力因為這個案子看起來沒有爭議而且行政院也樂觀其成預算也有了所以不要再說程序的問題好嗎這是第一個問題所以我希望打詐不會只有一個打詐辦公室打詐"},{"start":493.57,"end":513.276,"text":"是全民一起,第二個要給他武器,要給他人力。好,我們會。委員那個打詐不是只有打詐辦公室,打詐辦公室是coordinate,內政部、法務部、通廠部、法會。人民在看你的決心,人民在看你的做法。第二個要給他充足的人力跟設備,他才能夠讓台灣脫離所謂的詐騙指導的惡名。我們有決心。"},{"start":520.498,"end":532.623,"text":"院長我們也希望你在會期520之前完成這件事。好下一個問題是稅制改革。我想院長您也在行政院非常久。針對整個財政狀況台灣的財政狀況您覺得狀況如何?"},{"start":536.786,"end":563.381,"text":"我覺得臺灣從COVID-19開始以後再加上全世界的這個供應鏈的改變臺灣的經濟成長在這幾年確實是比以往來說來得好很多而且歲出歲出盈餘委員可能也知道從2017年開始就是正的然後最近幾年都到3000億財政狀況是相當不錯因為出口也很好然後經濟發展也不錯但是"},{"start":564.221,"end":593.521,"text":"台灣針對所謂的稅制改革其實從蔡政府上任之後一直提出有一些稅務需要改我這邊列出來就是長期來大家在討論的叫做娛樂稅、貨物稅、印花稅我還記得很清楚蘇貞昌院長的時候在2019年大力說要廢除印花稅我當時代表台北市政府來立法院跟相關的單位陳情因為印花稅是重要的地方稅"},{"start":594.461,"end":615.058,"text":"如果要取消不是不可以而且它也是一個比較落後的稅制但是中央在稅制改革上面針對娛樂稅貨物稅還有印花稅這種已經不合時的稅制它的改革一直有提出來但是到現在為止沒有看到結果"},{"start":617.45,"end":643.401,"text":"八年的狀況是怎樣咧?你要不要告訴我一下咧?是不是跟委員說明一下印花稅的部分大概一年收取是170億是地方政府非常重要的一個稅源那這個部分我們也邀請地方政府來過開會他們都認為說這個部分是他們很重要的稅源所以他們不贊成廢除地方政府不是不贊成地方政府是需要有替代裁員"},{"start":644.221,"end":669.596,"text":"要有替代財源但是雖然是有替代財源對他們來說這個還是財政制度很重要這是因為地方稅所以為什麼蘇院長在沒有經過審慎思考的時候就說要廢呢那我想另外委員提到就是說你要回答我的問題啊是你們要廢的理由是什麼因為它是一個不合時宜的稅制對吧當然它有一定的一個時間但目前來說還是因為它是1934年民國23年時候訂的法是"},{"start":672.998,"end":697.503,"text":"那是一個非常落後的稅制。第二個娛樂稅的部分以前它是一種奢侈一種高消費但是現在的娛樂稅它已經是電影演唱會球賽已經是人民的基本的日常生活它沒有什麼特別的特別的高消費第三個是貨物稅貨物稅是嚴重的違反所謂的租稅的中立性不是嗎"},{"start":698.754,"end":699.834,"text":"這三個要檢討,檢討了八年,檢討出什麼東西來?"},{"start":723.439,"end":727.462,"text":"議員長我今天要問的是八年的部分的癥結在於我們從來沒有好好檢討過剛剛講的這些稅如果要取消它的替代財源是在哪裡?"},{"start":746.05,"end":748.012,"text":"我想任何財稅的改革中央地方都需要一起來研議"},{"start":762.925,"end":787.564,"text":"然後各界也需要來講。我同意。所以當時在廢議印花稅的時候沒有跟地方政府討論就直接說要廢除所以我們當時臺北市政府才要帶人到立法院到行政院來澄清也就是說這件事情是重要的稅制改革是重要的要跟地方政府溝通要幫他找到地貸財源這些不合時的稅應該改"},{"start":790.03,"end":807.02,"text":"應該要檢討,但是需要溝通跟具體的作為。院長,這個爭解就是,執政8年檢討的結果目前還沒看到。第二個,你可不可以給我一個具體的調整的方向,還有影響程度的跟調整的角度。所以在這8年來我們有很多稅制的改革。"},{"start":813.524,"end":814.826,"text":"我今天的要求就是既然討論這麼久檢討的方向給我一個時間表"},{"start":830.011,"end":858.142,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分我們都有做檢討就是如同剛剛委員說要尊重地方政府的意見所以地方政府的意見是非常的分歧的重視找替代裁員他也認為這個破壞了他的財政自主因為他是地方所以他就要還有自主權我明白所以我們在幫你找替代裁員接下去我要跟你說的是10年前蔡總統在他的10年政綱說要建立綠色的稅制2011年他其實就提出來的所謂綠色稅制"},{"start":860.174,"end":885.398,"text":"我剛講貨物稅其實它有嚴重的違反所謂的租稅中立還有它有邏輯的問題為什麼因為如果是電視它就是有特殊的貨物稅如果它是顯示器它屬於電腦IC產品它就免貨物稅這是一個很奇怪的現象也就是說這些綠色的稅制接下去我們現在2024了綠色稅制要在"},{"start":890.714,"end":915.244,"text":"2026歐盟要進行相關的碳稅的之前,我們現在就必須要準備。兩位同意嗎?委員這個部分已經在今年開始在環境部的部分依照氣變法已經開始徵收碳稅,碳費。我們現在的氣候變遷法是碳費先行,碳稅再慢慢過渡。但事實上在歐盟大概2026就到了,現在已經2024了。"},{"start":916.664,"end":930.45,"text":"然後碳費的部分他其實並不是所謂的大家都有他是可能比較特殊的大的企業第二個他不是全民第三個最重要的是他可能沒有辦法接軌國際是吧"},{"start":932.217,"end":935.059,"text":"沒錯。也就是說過程是一個,但是院長我要說的是臺灣政府必須針對碳稅開始做因應。"},{"start":960.384,"end":960.444,"text":"﹚黃珊珊﹚"},{"start":987.118,"end":989.459,"text":"我們也只有兩年的時間了這個時間不可能再讓大家滿滿演繹"},{"start":1016.161,"end":1035.913,"text":"所以我的意思是說,剛剛講的替代裁員,判稅會是你的替代裁員的考慮的對象之一。這個方式現在就必須要痛定思痛。有時候比較先進的立法會造成一時的痛苦,但是它可以引力人民生活習慣的改變。"},{"start":1037.176,"end":1065.794,"text":"對﹐"},{"start":1066.186,"end":1072.708,"text":"我現在給你兩個建議嘛。第一個反正我們替代財源要找,碳稅是你可以找的替代財源的其中之一。第二個"},{"start":1090.353,"end":1110.569,"text":"探稅即將是面對國際的接軌同時可以改變人民的生活它必須是我們接下來很重要的一個規劃的目標這也是我相信臺灣身為國際社會的一份子必須要走的路院長這是我覺得在您的看守期間可以把這個方向明確的指出來"},{"start":1111.489,"end":1126.753,"text":"還有我們環境部也是一個非常重要的任務。是,部長要不要講一下呢?非常謝謝黃委員的建議。事實上我們跟財政部莊部長這邊都有保持密切的聯繫。就如同剛剛黃委員所提到的"},{"start":1127.233,"end":1132.319,"text":"所以我說嘛就是其實要做都要先溝通所以這是一個很重要的過程"},{"start":1149.517,"end":1167.805,"text":"那重點是政治的核心真的是執行力啦。在這邊要跟院長抱怨一下,我們台北市在2022年其實就6月份就把淨零排放的管理自治條例送到行政院。等於是在兩年多前我們就送過來。"},{"start":1168.985,"end":1193.516,"text":"光在行政院合定的過程大概就一年半這個裡面有非常多所謂淨零碳排的路徑包括可能將來在台北市的比如說旅館他就不可以再放所謂的一次性的用品類似這樣的東西是需要跟民間溝通的也就是一個法律的推展他必須要事先而且要提早跟企業跟市民來過溝通"},{"start":1194.856,"end":1212.652,"text":"但是一個法案躺在行政院一年半才核定有很多要跟地方溝通的事就會耽誤到所以院長我不知道為什麼一個法案要核定個一年半因為你已經離開嘛所以離開台北市政府我想我們請部長來說明為什麼我們會"},{"start":1215.161,"end":1239.549,"text":"需要一段時間來跟地方做溝通。是。我想非常謝謝黃委員在擔任台北市副市長的時候在2022年7月5號就把台北市的淨零排放。因為我們的市議會非常認真很快就通過了。但是因為我們的氣候變遷因應法事實上是去年2月15號才通過。那氣候變遷法通過之後還有12個執法"},{"start":1241.289,"end":1266.954,"text":"所以地方的自治條例必須也在執法跟探盤查、探費等等相關的必須先公告之後才能夠去審地方的自治條例。我要回到是說就是說像這種淨零探牌的事情已經很早我們大概就知道國際趨勢的方式。連一個地方政府都跑得這麼快。我的意思是說將來的環境不尤其是"},{"start":1267.714,"end":1267.874,"text":"﹚黃珊珊﹚"},{"start":1291.018,"end":1292.678,"text":"我一定努力來這樣做至少在這幾個月內"},{"start":1319.566,"end":1347.65,"text":"但是很重要的我想委員你講到一個重點我們希望未來在進行碳排相關的立法的這個過程呢我們能夠再得到朝野黨團的支持讓他這個立法能夠更順利更快謝謝好的院長我覺得這個是很重要接下來還有一個小問題但這個問題我覺得也是地方政府很在乎的財化法蔡總統也說過財化法要修正也說了10年這10年8年的執政"},{"start":1348.777,"end":1367.679,"text":"有沒有送過財化法的修正案到立法院?基本上我想財化法不只是蔡總統的這一段時間。是所有的行政院長都說過要修的對吧?而且是立正的總統都有提到財化法。為什麼都不做呢?我想這個不做。又是立方有意見。"},{"start":1370.373,"end":1395.373,"text":"你委員你當過副市長你很清楚這一個需要各縣市比如說六都我們都明白但是就是有沒有人要做第一個財化法現在的問題我想院長也很清楚這當然委員我講還沒有講完我可以講一下嗎時間只剩7分鐘我還有一個題目我們認為財化法是很重要是不是讓部長簡單講一分鐘好不好部長很簡單"},{"start":1399.92,"end":1426.383,"text":"這個財化法的問題分配不均,發展失衡,人均差異很大。臺北大概是兩萬四,新北的人大概只分到一萬二。更嚴重的是像新竹縣,它只分到九千多。然後最重要的是中央掌握了這個錢跟權,然後地方低頭,所以它就變成一個魔戒。到現在為止沒有一個中央的官員或中央的首長願意下放這個權力,你同意嗎?"},{"start":1427.183,"end":1454.654,"text":"跟委員報告財化法雖然沒有修但是中央透過中央統籌分配稅款跟一般性的補助款對地方的財政大力的益助加上地方政府的努力那財政狀況已經有所改善那至於財化法的修正院長已經指示要遵循各界的意見凝聚共識所以財政部也凝聚了六項的修法原則第一個就是提升財政自主第二個是調劑財政盈蓄第三個是劃一分配的基礎以及精進分配的機制"},{"start":1455.334,"end":1471.003,"text":"然後保障地方財源以及既有的財源不減少那這個部分的六個原則之下呢有關分配的指標也已經請各地方政府來提意見不過目前各地方政府提出來的意見都非常的分析那差距很大所以你要分錢給他當然是其實你只要具原則就好第二個院長我覺得直接很簡單態度上啦"},{"start":1476.786,"end":1477.426,"text":"對21縣市來的意見真的相當分歧"},{"start":1499.13,"end":1524.598,"text":"就直接說我會好好分配就好啦也就是說不要承諾一些空話啦這才是我的問題好啦結論是我們希望說有一個制度性的改革方案第二個我們希望至少有個方向齁這個方向連馬英九任內喔都送一個版本你們連版本都沒有那為什麼會沒有通過呢我想就是因為這就是如果長期溝通16年都沒通過的話就是要"},{"start":1525.714,"end":1549.976,"text":"如果現在是你執政,你就必須要去處理啊。對,處理的過程就是剛才講的,我們已經有進步。我希望看守內閣不是空轉內閣,該做的事情就去做。第二個,剛剛講的不合時宜的稅要調整。第二個,碳稅要開始研議。第三個,財化法的方向其實還是要交代,即使蔡總統要卸任。"},{"start":1551.02,"end":1578.217,"text":"賴總統上任一樣要把這個問題跟全民交代清楚。接下來我剩4分鐘了我還有一個比較重要的問題要來問一下院長。院長這8年你覺得台灣的居住正義落實的如何?我覺得蔡總統當時講的有一些有關於居住正義的事情確實有認真在做那像是社會住宅的部分或者我覺得"},{"start":1579.662,"end":1588.004,"text":"效果應該是不錯但是對於但是台灣為什麼還是低薪高房價年輕人痛苦不堪呢?"},{"start":1588.527,"end":1616.705,"text":"我想房價不可能在很短的時間內會有很大的變動。但是我覺得解決臺灣的問題就好像你們所提出來的一樣。就是要從社會住宅來著手。八年來住宅的價格上漲了32%可是我們的員工就是薪水上漲10%也就是我們薪水成長趕不上房價。第二個部分是八年執政從所得比"},{"start":1618.257,"end":1626.145,"text":"從8.97變成9.86也就是說可能要再多一年不吃不喝才能買房那聯徵中心認為也查到了"},{"start":1627.746,"end":1653.793,"text":"買房首購的年金往後挪移就從30到35現在首購要35到40然後臺北市當然更嚴重是15.67但也是世界級的第一個前面名列前茅那另外就是在平均地權新法當時是希望能夠打房可是目前為止好像後來又有新清安貸款那其實又催促了買氣就是說我們在打房跟催促買氣的情況下"},{"start":1654.933,"end":1679.275,"text":"其實兩個政策好像有稍微互相矛盾那比較嚴重的就是省基部也幫我這不是我講這是省基部講房價高青年負擔的能力即使提供了更高的補助還有更高的額度的貸款延長了貸款的年限還有補貼他更多的利息但是購物的負擔還是非常沉重"},{"start":1680.168,"end":1693.017,"text":"另外就是我們自己發放的房貸支持是3萬但是好像也沒有辦法支持減輕民眾購物的負擔。院長我們做了很多但是為什麼還這麼嚴重?"},{"start":1695.216,"end":1717.479,"text":"我想我們做了很多為什麼會這麼嚴重就像你剛才講的這個房價繼續往上飆那另外一個很重要的事情我覺得我們現在要解決臺灣這個住的問題特別是年輕人住的問題的話應該要從社會住宅的這個角度來擴建是一個最能夠建級旅級而且能夠做到更好的地方"},{"start":1717.739,"end":1721.642,"text":"所以我們才會有來推動社會住宅,然後有這個租金補貼再加上所謂的這個包租貸款。但是你知道很多年輕人是拿不到租金補貼的嗎?"},{"start":1746.833,"end":1756.373,"text":"因為他的房東不准他去申請。這個部分我想你可能還不了解最近的狀況。如果他去申請了他就只有選擇搬家。"},{"start":1757.748,"end":1786.636,"text":"我想委員提到這個問題我們在去年的時候其實已經大幅的解決那當然可能還有一些狀況不過跟前年的狀況目前已經大幅改善了。院長其實我現在要說的是我時間也不多了租屋市場的黑市還是台灣很嚴重的一個問題即使我們租宅法修正我們可以拿去申請租金補貼但是他可能下一次續約的時候就被迫搬走了第二個就是"},{"start":1787.386,"end":1809.951,"text":"他可能也沒有辦法申請戶口所以所有在臺北北漂的孩子其實都很難在臺北有享受社會福利所以我覺得這幾個東西租黑市讓他能夠陽光化才是內政部接下來應該要做的事林部長怎麼樣租黑市陽光化是你最重要的任務吧"},{"start":1810.365,"end":1835.968,"text":"是,我們在於租屋的一個透明度,其實這幾年其實也進步很多。到目前為止,我們能夠...好,謝謝黃委員珊珊的質詢。接下來,院會報告。向院會報告我們休息10分鐘。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149144","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149144","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e96810f832e24c76c98b254c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a6ccd822a3089844525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"09:18:12 - 09:48:58","影片長度":"00:30:46","會議時間":"2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-27","duration":1846,"end_time":"2024-02-27T09:48:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-27T09:18:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":89,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（9時18分）主席韓院長以及陳建仁院長，麻煩一下。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：丁委員，恭喜你當選立委。"],["丁委員學忠：謝謝。院長，我從之前到現在剛好跟你見過3次面，第一次是在虎尾，那時候我是擔任代表會主席，在若瑟醫院的畢神父過世的時候你有到現場去送他。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["丁委員學忠：第二次是我擔任鎮長的時候，我們的萡子寮因天文潮發生海水倒灌的時候，你也有去關心。"],["陳院長建仁：是，也謝謝你的指導。"],["丁委員學忠：第三次就是在國會這裡了。我知道上禮拜院長針對瘦肉精以及大陸漁船這兩個事件可能和我們立院的一些同事在言語上有一些比較衝動，我知道上禮拜你的細胞也死很多，所以今天我們用聊天的方式，這樣好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我一向心平氣和啦，我也覺得委員很重視雲林的整體發展。"],["丁委員學忠：是。我在這裡也趁這個機會，趁著這陣子發生瘦肉精的事件，我趁這個機會來行銷我們雲林的雲饗豬，雲林的雲饗豬是我們養殖戶用最先進的技術素所飼養出來最健康的豬，而且我們雲林受到張麗善縣長的指示，我們也是全國在非洲豬瘟疫情事件上拒絕使用廚餘養豬的第一個縣市。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯。"],["丁委員學忠：所以確實有阻擋住非洲豬瘟，這個應該大家都了解，我相信院長對我們張麗善縣長的施政應該是很滿意才對。"],["陳院長建仁：對，雲林的豬農以及雲林縣政府對於豬農的照顧，我們都感到是很認真、很打拚，也做得很好，就像你的簡報所寫的，真的是高規格的養豬產業。"],["丁委員學忠：是，感謝院長的認同，剛好這陣子發生瘦肉精事件，對於臺中市政府所驗出來的結果，中央的想法是不一樣的，對此，我可以給你一項建議，因為我也不相信台糖會洗產地，我不相信，我相信院長也不相信。我也不相信我們國家會進瘦肉精的飼料讓豬農餵給豬吃，這個我也絕對不相信，但是事實證明就是在臺中市有驗出肉品含有瘦肉精的成分。"],["陳院長建仁：西布特羅。"],["丁委員學忠：事實上有驗出來，當然現在大家是各說各話，我提出一個建議，我建議將這個樣品拿去驗DNA，將臺灣豬的DNA、美國豬DNA去檢驗一下，透過第三方公正單位驗出一個結果，因為我認為我們必須讓國人知道一個真相，這個是我向院長提出的建議。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝你的建議，通常我們檢驗豬肉的DNA就是為了要知道這是從哪裡來的豬肉，但是臺中市政府檢驗的那一塊豬肉實際上就是臺灣所養殖的豬所切出來的肉，都是臺灣豬切的，所以……"],["丁委員學忠：沒關係啊！沒關係……"],["陳院長建仁：如果要去驗……"],["丁委員學忠：院長，我知道我們一定是這樣的想法，但是我們要讓人家瞭解這個疑雲，就必須用這種方法，當然臺灣切下來的豬肉我們也相信啊……"],["陳院長建仁：是啊！"],["丁委員學忠：但是外面很多人不相信，他們不相信，而我們要讓他們相信的話，我們就是要做這個動作，這樣大家就會相信了。為什麼我會跟你說這個？因為去年我從新聞報導中得知，我們進口一百多噸的美國豬消失了，後來食安單位查到的結果是被混做義大利豬、混做加拿大豬去切片，然後整包銷售到市面上讓民眾買回去食用，這件事情我相信院長也知道，所以我建議你用驗DNA的方式就是因為這樣，我們過去就曾經發生過這樣的事情了，為何現在不想辦法讓大眾信服呢？我們應該用最完整的檢驗方式，讓大眾信服我們政府面對事情的態度及能力，是不是這樣？"],["陳院長建仁：我跟委員報告，你的建議是一個很好的、可以說明那塊豬肉到底是臺灣豬、美國豬還是外國豬的方式，但因為臺灣現在的飼養、屠宰、分切到市場都有履歷認證，那個履歷認證就是表明確確實實這一塊豬肉都是從這些履歷見證來的，這是一個方法，我們可以來研究一下，但是……"],["丁委員學忠：跟院長報告，你所說的我都認同，臺灣豬的整個流程及安全的飼養方式我都認同，但就是出了問題，既然出問題了，我們就應該針對問題來解決，這樣好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：對啦，這個……"],["丁委員學忠：這個部分麻煩院長再去研議一下。"],["陳院長建仁：這個……"],["丁委員學忠：沒關係，這個不是重點，我的重點是要介紹我們雲林的雲饗豬。"],["陳院長建仁：好，這是很好的豬，我知道。"],["丁委員學忠：既然台糖的契約豬已經發生了這樣的問題，我們是不是可以參考我們雲林養豬農所飼養出來的這些豬肉產品？我相信一定會更好的。","院長，我也是雲林鄉下出來的，來到臺北這個都市，我要針對雲林這8年來的一些問題，我相信這8年當中，中央的立委比較少去提的議題，也是我們農民長輩比較在意的議題。我們雲林縣差不多有六成的土地都用於耕種，很多農民面對肥料漲價、農藥漲價、農資材材料漲價、工錢也漲價，現在面對這麼多種的問題，但我們農民對於農業這一塊這麼堅持地把守著，所以前幾天我們嘉郡委員有講到公糧收購的問題，不知道院長你的感覺如何？"],["陳院長建仁：公糧這個問題，確確實實像你還是張委員都有提起，這部分我們農委會有一些研究的結論，我請我們部長說一下好嗎？"],["丁委員學忠：好。"],["陳代理部長駿季：感謝委員對我們農民的關心，我想大家都希望稻農有比較好的收入，我們一定都是這樣想的，不過公糧收購價格一旦上漲，就我們100年當時的經驗，民國100年那時公糧收購每公斤增加新台幣3元、烘乾費補助2元，結果增加5元之後，稻作的面積從本來差不多24萬公頃變成27萬公頃，結果造成民間收購的價格降低。因為我們現在收購的公糧只占產量的30%而已，剩下的70%都是私人收購的，我們希望私人收購的糧價可以越來越高，所以我們現在採用「稻作4選3」的方式在控制，把稻作的耕種面積控制到差不多23萬到24萬公頃。耕種面積在23萬到24萬公頃的水準之下，私人收購的糧價已經達到每百台斤差不多1,300塊，已經超過了……"],["丁委員學忠：我們有辦法控制耕種的面積嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：現在依我們「稻作4選3」採取灌溉輪作的方式，可以將稻作的耕種面積控制在23到24萬公頃，如果現在公糧收購的價格再拉高的話，恐怕會讓很多人回頭再去種水稻，一旦很多人都回頭種水稻，稻作面積就會拉高了，之後私人收購的糧價就會降低了……"],["丁委員學忠：並不是這樣啦！部長，並不是這樣，不是每一塊地都適合種水稻，不是這樣。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，了解，我了解。"],["丁委員學忠：如果是水源比較欠缺的土地，它哪有辦法去種水稻？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["丁委員學忠：所以要怎麼來控制量這個部分，可能我們農業部這邊還是有辦法研議一些方式，有辦法來控制稻米耕種的範圍。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["丁委員學忠：因為我們已經12年沒調整了，這12年當中我們的基本薪水從1萬7,000多塊調整到現在已經2萬7,000多塊了，我們所有的物價也已經調整過14次了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["丁委員學忠：獨獨我們農民，因為你也知道「秧仔」也漲價了，整地的工資也漲價了，請人插秧的工錢也都漲價，每一樣都漲價，獨獨我們公糧收購的價格就是沒漲價，這對於堅守農業發展這一塊的長輩，我認為真的是比較不公平啦！是不是請部長針對公糧收購價格調漲這個問題，你們真的必須要好好研議一下。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們一定會做一個整體的規劃，讓我們稻農的收益會比較高。"],["丁委員學忠：對。"],["陳代理部長駿季：依照去年的2期稻作，每百台斤濕穀的價格從過去的800多塊已經變成1,300塊了，就是說私人收購稻穀的價格已經拉高了，所以我們會去做整體評估，包括公糧要怎麼去調整、包括我們的稻作要怎麼去調整，我們會有一個更好的評估。"],["丁委員學忠：好啊！好啊！"],["陳院長建仁：讓我們農業部來評估一下，看怎麼樣……"],["丁委員學忠：對啦！這……"],["陳院長建仁：公糧的價格也好，私糧的價格也好，都能夠增加，這是我們的期望……"],["丁委員學忠：我們雲林的農民真的都很單純、很純樸……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯。"],["丁委員學忠：大家也都非常「巴結」啦！還有一項，你們在我們雲林選舉都拿很高票，在總統選舉也拿很高票，照理說，你們要對我們雲林這些農民、我們那裡所有的建設要對我們好一點才對，是不是應該要這樣？"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！我們一定會疼惜雲林的農民。"],["丁委員學忠：對部長在任內的作為，我都非常的肯定，我肯定院長在任內帶領各部會針對我們全國所有政策的推廣，我也都非常認同，但是我知道，你們可能在520之後就會換職位了，我也知道，但是你們在520之前有辦法給我一個明確的答案嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想讓我們農業部來規劃，我要向委員報告，因為接任的賴總統還是會走小英總統的路線，所以我們的施政一定是會連續的，最重要的就是這個公糧價格的問題，確確實實已經很久沒調了。"],["丁委員學忠：對。"],["陳院長建仁：這就要有一個比較好的規劃，我是說如果調到太高的時候……"],["丁委員學忠：不用，院長……"],["陳院長建仁：這就是還要再考慮啦！"],["丁委員學忠：院長，我們不是說要你們一次就調到位，不是這樣。"],["陳院長建仁：OK。"],["丁委員學忠：我們可以逐年慢慢的調整，依照我們現在的物價，在這個範圍裡面我們逐年慢慢的調整，至少也在蔡總統政府卸任之前讓長期以來支持民進黨的這些農民能得到相當被認同的感覺，在院長卸任之前，你也調整一些啊！"],["陳院長建仁：我們會認真來規劃、認真來努力啦！希望能夠達到委員的要求。"],["丁委員學忠：對，再麻煩你們啦！"],["陳院長建仁：但是還要再跟農民討論，要花一點時間。"],["丁委員學忠：因為你們可能是做到520，但是我還有4年的時間。"],["陳院長建仁：是，我知道。"],["丁委員學忠：對這件事情我是一定從頭追到尾，為了我們農民的權利，我絕對會從頭追到尾。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["丁委員學忠：還有一項，我們的農業天然災害救助辦法到現在已經三十幾年了，其中經過差不多10次修改裡面的內容，唯獨一項沒有修改的就是人工勘災，現在颱風什麼時候成形，氣象署都有掌握，颱風什麼時候要轉向，氣象署也都瞭解，風速多大、雨量多大，氣象署也都有辦法掌握，所以現在農業照理說對天然災害不能再用人工勘災。我在這裡要請教部長，若叫你去看某一區塊，在裡面有損失20%，你看得出來嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，第一點就是現在的規定是20%，都是公所跟改良場的專家去看這20%。"],["丁委員學忠：對。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們現在已經有開發一種用手機拍照的部分，配合無人機去勘災，來協助人工的勘災。"],["丁委員學忠：可是也是一樣是基層公所去做初勘。"],["陳代理部長駿季：有一些種類如果雨水1天超過一定的量，就不用勘災了，就可以直接去處理了，所以我們對這個部分會跟氣象的指數做連結。"],["陳院長建仁：人工智慧啦！"],["丁委員學忠：所以我在這裡要跟大家報告，其實我們雲林的農民不是硬要補助，並不是這樣。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["丁委員學忠：但是面對我們現在萬物漲價，農作物有價格不穩定的狀況，如果運氣不好遇到天然災害，中央照理說要以從優、從寬、從簡的方式來對待天然災害補助的項目。我跟你們報告，我們去年遇到小犬颱風來襲，你們也知道嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["丁委員學忠：小犬颱風造成全國性農作物受損非常嚴重，小犬颱風是在10月5號造成災害，可是到11月還在公告補助品項，神經線的反應會不會太慢了？對嗎？竟然到11月！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，小犬颱風因為吹的是鹹風，吹了鹹風會有一些延遲性的受損，就是說你當下看不出它有受損，但是差不多一個禮拜、兩個禮拜以後，葉子才會慢慢乾掉，所以這個小犬颱風是比較特例，就是說它有鹽分的部分，會造成一些延遲性的災損。"],["丁委員學忠：所以我現在要說的就是這樣，既然我們瞭解到這次颱風有造成天然災害，還有一項就是人工勘災，我現在要談人工勘災，我們地方的公所是不是在第一線幫農業部代辦來蒐集這些農民的資料？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["丁委員學忠：他是不是還要去看是否有損失到20%才可以幫他們送件，是不是這樣？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，現在稍微有改了，就是當一些天然災害來臨的時候，我們的試驗單位會第一線去看，如果看到一些普遍性的災害，我們農業部就會主動公告了，就不用讓地方政府申請再來公告，這個會加快大概5天的時間。"],["丁委員學忠：那是其中有可能發生更嚴重的啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["丁委員學忠：因為現在的科技這麼進步，颱風什麼時候要走什麼路線我們都瞭解，雨量多大、風量多大我們都很瞭解，我們是不是可以依我們的氣象台，看看用什麼方式，我們農業部跟氣象署，我們可以依氣象署的數據來瞭解到這個區域性，只要風速、雨水量有達到我們天然災害救助辦法的規定，我們是不是就用全品項全面來補助？這樣不會造成農民和基層公所辦事人員的糾紛。","你知道嗎？這次小犬颱風剛好遇到選舉期，竟然有人有辦法煽動農民去公所抗議說公所的災害補助都不給他們過，是不是公所都要依照農業部的規定來做？是不是這樣？"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解，對。"],["丁委員學忠：既然我們公所對於農業部的規定，他們盡忠職守，他們非常認真的依照你們的規定在做，竟然對農民做選舉政治的操作，把農民「裝肖仔」，說錢都在公所了，公所都不把錢分給那些農民，用這種政治操作來愚弄那些農民，讓那些農民像瘋子一樣在那邊跑來跑去，這樣不對啦！我覺得這樣不對啦！未來我丁學忠不會去做這種事情，但是我希望我們對這個天然災害補助辦法一定要適時修改，不能再用人工勘災，我們中央決定的政策，我們中央自己來發布，我們中央來承擔，如果有什麼工作在地方，學忠來陪你們承擔，這樣好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們的天然災害救助辦法一直在滾動修改，這是第1點；第2點，我們現在已經儘量減少一些人工勘災，目前已經差不多9項……"],["丁委員學忠：不是減少，每次都是人工勘災啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為有一些不用人工勘災，用氣象參數，它要有一些比較客觀的科學數據，就是說像虱目魚超過10度、24小時就不用勘災了，就知道一定穩死了，所以每一個作物對溫度、對風速都有影響，這個數字如果我們有抓到的話，我們就會用科學的氣象參數來處理，那就不用勘災了，所以這是一步一步這樣處理的，我們會儘量……"],["丁委員學忠：希望啦！希望我們可以依照現在先進科技的技術好好來運用，我們現在一直在說農業智慧、科技農業、科技漁業，我們已經開始一直在推廣這個了，為什麼只有勘災就要造成農民和基層公所人員這麼大的糾紛？我是鎮長出身所以我知道，如果真的遇到的時候，有時候農民的認知跟公所辦事人員的認知完全不同，當然農民是為了他的權利，但是公所的辦事人員是為了守法，所以我們要顧著農民的權利，還要顧及我們的員工對於害怕會卡到法令的事情，這真的造成很大的困擾，所以如果我們用科技勘災，全面性實施，不管是農業、漁業都用科技勘災，全面性實施，絕對沒有那些困擾，而且還有辦法達到我們從速、從寬、從優的補助要領，這樣好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會朝這個方向執行，我也是要鼓勵我們農民用農業保險，因為農業保險都不用勘災，到時就看產量……"],["丁委員學忠：農業保險現在不是只有稻子才有嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，現在有27個品項、54張保單，用這個都不用勘災，到時候產量低就賠了。"],["陳院長建仁：這個也需要委員一起推動。"],["丁委員學忠：這個部分再拜託農業部繼續研議。我們是要持續的進步，我們不要在原地踏步。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，瞭解。"],["丁委員學忠：這樣好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當然。"],["丁委員學忠：再來是針對水利會的部分，水利會現在收回來公有，我們在基層都聽到很多聲音，以前水利會每一年總共有2億經費可以幫我們農民修繕農水路，現在收回國有了，你有空可以自己開車，不要有一大群隨扈，不要有隨從人員，你自己開車去我們雲林的水利站看，我們那些員工是不是閒閒的、大家閒閒沒事好做？而且過去只要水路損害需要施作，跟水利站說，水利站就有辦法發揮他們的公益性馬上協助農民，現在不是，現在都沒有。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，你剛才說的經費，從過去水利會時代，到現在我們農水署的時代，經費從四十幾億變成每年127億，這是第一點，我們灌區的經費增加。第二個部分就是你剛才說的圳路修繕……"],["丁委員學忠：我們那邊沿海11個鄉鎮都聽到了，就是說水路若要做，就要聽一個人的話、要去拜託一個人，一個人才有辦法解決這些事情。"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，這完全不是事實喔！我們有解釋。"],["丁委員學忠：我相信不是事實，但是未來會這樣發生嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：絕對不會，因為我們有統計……"],["丁委員學忠：不會發生，所以未來針對我們雲林縣農水路的改善，你要怎麼樣讓我們有辦法得到比較多資源來改善我們的農水路？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們每一年對於圳路的修理都會由一些地區管理處提報，提報了我們經費一定到位，這是第一點。第二點就是萬一圳路有壞掉的時候，如果通報了，在一個禮拜以內都會修理好，一個禮拜以內至少發包或是清淤。"],["丁委員學忠：我知道，你說的這個我都知道，未來呢？未來資源會更多嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我剛剛說的，現在的資源從過去水利會時代的四十幾億，到現在變成平均1年有127億，另外我們還有運用特別預算……"],["丁委員學忠：部長，你說的編列這些預算是全國性的，還是只有雲林縣而已？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是全國性的。"],["陳院長建仁：全國性的。"],["丁委員學忠：對啊！是全國性的，雲林縣才分配得到多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：分配的時候就是看各地方的圳路要不要修理，這個我們每年都會有統計，每個地區不太一樣。"],["陳院長建仁：我想最好的方法就是委員也可以反映。"],["丁委員學忠：剩下5分鐘而已，我在這裡要告訴部長，未來只要我們雲林縣有農水路的需求、計畫報上來，我希望我們部長這邊要全力幫忙。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對於報上來的計畫，我們大部分都會支持啦！"],["丁委員學忠：我會自己來拜託你。"],["陳院長建仁：對啦，委員如果替人民反映……"],["丁委員學忠：這個部分再拜託一下。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["丁委員學忠：再來我要請教院長，我們現在是民意比較重要，還是廠商的利益比較重要？"],["陳院長建仁：我想兩邊都要兼顧啦！尤其是整個國家的發展，我們需要政府和民間一起合作。"],["丁委員學忠：我現在要向院長報告的是，關於我們口湖鄉謝厝村的升壓站、變電站，從去年1月我們的長輩就一直在那裡抗議了，後來經過瞭解之後，他們是為了他們的權利在抗議，水源距離這個變電站的施工處差不多只相差20公尺而已，近近的而已，他們為了他們的健康、為了水源不要受損，整村對這個案件做出相當的抗議，此外，我還沒聽說過有甲地開說明會、乙地施工的情形，但政府卻認定它甲地開說明會、乙地施工。有這件事情嗎？"],["王部長美花：我跟委員報告，它確實已經開了2次的說明會，對地方的疑慮其實也都有說明，而且變電站也沒有環境的風險……"],["丁委員學忠：就算沒有環境風險，它的程序就是不符合啊！甲地開會、乙地施工！住在這裡的人完全不知道要做這件事情，原來是到6公里以外的「庄頭」去開說明會，說明會主席說要簽名，大家莫名其妙簽一簽就回去了，我們這個「庄頭」完全沒有人去，這樣竟然算數！這樣算數嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們會確定它的說明會開得是否合法、有沒有按照規定……"],["丁委員學忠：這樣怎麼會合法？"],["王部長美花：所以它現在……"],["丁委員學忠：這樣就是完全不合法啊！"],["王部長美花：它現在……"],["丁委員學忠：要在我家門口做的事情照理說應該來說明，讓我知道到底是要做什麼、未來的用途是什麼、做起來會怎樣、會不會影響到什麼，或者是對我們有什麼好處，照理說我們有知的權利，結果要在我家做的事情我完全不知道，而是去別人家說要在我家做什麼，別人完全莫名其妙，不知道他們在說什麼。完全莫名其妙，卻以出席人員的身分簽名，這樣能算數？"],["王部長美花：相關的細節……"],["丁委員學忠：我們那邊的居民為了自己的權利到現在還在抗爭。我相信……"],["王部長美花：我跟委員報告……"],["丁委員學忠：我相信部長對這個案子非常瞭解。"],["王部長美花：大家要發展再生能源……"],["丁委員學忠：發展再生能源我們都同意……"],["王部長美花：讓綠電更多……"],["丁委員學忠：這個我們都認同。我們雲林縣是農業大縣，現在整個口湖被劃設兩千五百多甲的綠能專區……"],["王部長美花：沒有，不是這個樣子。"],["丁委員學忠：不是這個樣子？"],["王部長美花：對。所以委員這樣的講法要看地區，因為如果是在我們原來……"],["丁委員學忠：你們用一個什麼「低地力」、「不利耕種區」的講法，就多劃了很多面積耶！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我跟委員報告……"],["丁委員學忠：部長，按理說，你們應該要到地方去才對。你們有到地方會勘嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：有，我……"],["丁委員學忠：你們有和縣政府單位和地方公所去現場會勘？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，有關你剛剛講的這些，在我們漁電共生專區20,950公頃當中，有在做光電的才兩千多公頃而已，不到兩萬多，其次，你剛剛說的低地力區有2,162公頃，其中有大概六百多公頃是做光電的地方，所以並不是所有的地方都在做這個。"],["丁委員學忠：我們現在的意思是，你們不要光在中央想要做什麼，就要做什麼，應該去地方瞭解地方上的人是否認同你們的想法，而且縣政府對地方比較瞭解，公所對地方也比較瞭解，如果要變更、希望在這個地方做什麼，可以邀集縣政府、地方公所一起去會勘，得到多方面的認同。"],["王部長美花：我們都有和地方合作，也去了很多遍……"],["丁委員學忠：不要坐在辦公室裡面自己劃一劃就算數！"],["陳院長建仁：不會、不會。"],["丁委員學忠：好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。一定會聯絡……"],["丁委員學忠：再麻煩你們。剛剛講的問題對我們那個地方真的都很重要，拜託院長和各部門幫忙。"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝丁委員學忠的質詢。","接下來請登記第10位黃委員珊珊質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳秉叡","丁學忠","黃珊珊","林岱樺","陳雪生","張啓楷","徐富癸","謝衣鳯","林國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,"end":765.567,"text":"我們可以逐年逐一來條件,因為我們現在有錢"},{"start":786.394,"end":798.06,"text":"我們有在這個範圍內,我們逐年逐一來調整啊,至少有辦法說,我們政府,我們當初總統的政府,因為留任啊,進行,讓我們農民,登記以來支持我們民進黨,這些農民,讓他們有得,立場上當,讓他們一個民黨的那個感覺。對啊,當你們在留任、進行,你們有辦法調整就好了。"},{"start":812.927,"end":818.292,"text":"我會認真來顧及認真來發表,希望能夠達到這個委員的要求。對啦,很麻煩的啦。對啦,因為你有可能到有可能,但是我還有4年的時間。"},{"start":828.941,"end":839.047,"text":"對呀,這件事我是一定委託,委託我們農民的管理我絕對會委託。還有一項,我們這個天然災害補助條例,我們這個條例到現在已經三十幾年了,其中有經過差不多將近十個的修改內容,每一項有修改的就是人工勘災。"},{"start":853.874,"end":854.134,"text":"人工勘測．．．．．．"},{"start":872.722,"end":880.166,"text":"我們現在的論壇,我們這個論壇教你講這個天然災害,我們不能再用這個零工砍災。我在這裡要跟佛教請教一下,說叫你去看那區分,那區分裏面說損失20%,你看得出來嗎?"},{"start":889.932,"end":911.355,"text":"我向委員報告,第一點就是說,現在的規定是20%都是工作,以及街上的專家去看,看在20%之下。我向委員報告,我們現在已經有用開發一種用手機及協商的部分,以及配合無人機去勘災的部分,來協助這個人工的勘災。"},{"start":912.276,"end":913.496,"text":"所以我直接要跟大家報告"},{"start":934.881,"end":957.896,"text":"其實我們本人都是人,他們不是因為要補助,不是這樣。但是人遇到,我們現在有很多的企業,只有這個農作業介紹沒有穩定的狀況。派人去遇到我們這個天然災害,我們中央照理說要重擁、重寬、重建的方式來對抗我們這個天然災害的過程。"},{"start":960.367,"end":987.995,"text":"這……這……"},{"start":988.055,"end":994.46,"text":"我看我跟委員報告,那小選颱風因為它的檢控啦檢控出來有一些延遲性的受損,就是說你當下看不出來說它有受損,不過你差不多一禮拜、兩禮拜以後,它才會慢慢地打起來"},{"start":1009.531,"end":1019.657,"text":"所以這個小選臺方是比較特例,就是說有緣分的部分會造成一些延遲性的災損。所以我現在在說的就是這樣,就是這樣,我們既然我們了解到我們這次的方針有去造成到我們這個天然災害,還有一項臨間抗災,我現在在說臨間抗災就是什麼?"},{"start":1033.906,"end":1048.271,"text":"我們的工作是做第一屆,第一屆來推我們農業部來臺灣地區收集我們農民的資料。是。是,它是第一,要再去跨省的省市至20%才可以推人上京,是這樣。"},{"start":1049.031,"end":1072.588,"text":"我跟委員報告,現在稍微有改革,就是說若有一些天然災害來的時候,我們的施政單位會第一層去看,你若看有一些普遍性的災害的時候,我們農業部就主動公告,就不用叫地方政府來申請再來公告,這個會加快大概5天的時間。那是說基中有可能發生更加嚴重的啦,我是希望啦,"},{"start":1076.03,"end":1076.19,"text":"﹚丁學忠﹚"},{"start":1098.422,"end":1106.21,"text":"瞭解到說,這個區域上只要放縮、給水量,若有特徵,我們這個天然災補助的一個條例,我們是會用全面上全面來補助。我們會去做成就農民和基層公所的販輸領域的給分。你們知道這個小錢颱風,"},{"start":1118.181,"end":1121.845,"text":"這次小園颱風剛好遇到孫綺綺啦,剛好遇到孫綺綺,既然有發動人選黨農民去公訴要抗議,公訴都在這個在下過程中不犯規,是公訴都要照我們農業部的規定來做。"},{"start":1137.341,"end":1151.027,"text":"是否如此?對阿,既然我們公訴對到我們論壇的規定,他們盡忠職守,他們非常認真照我們的規定去做,既然讓人來論壇,會讓人來做這個選舉、政績的一個操作,我們要把論壇做小的,說什麼錢都要在公訴,公訴錢都要我負責論壇,"},{"start":1164.189,"end":1179.753,"text":"﹗"},{"start":1180.049,"end":1199.184,"text":"我希望,我們對這個天然災的保守條例,一定要事實來做修改。一定要事實來做修改,不可以再用這個人工勘測,我們中央決定的政策,我們中央自己來發布,我們中央來承擔。如果有什麼考慮,在地上,中央來承擔,這樣好不好?"},{"start":1200.825,"end":1229.441,"text":"我向委員報告我們的天然災害救助方法一直在滾動修改在第一點第二點就是說我們現在已經盡量減少一些人工勘栽已經目前已經差不多高了因為有一些人工勘栽用氣象參數的他要有一些比較客觀的科學數據就是說像紗白魚你如果超過十多二十四點鐘的時候你就不用看了我就知道說他一定是我們挑起的所以"},{"start":1229.741,"end":1234.283,"text":"希望啦,希望,我們可以教說我們現在先進的科技的技術,可以好好來運用,我們現在就都一直在說農業智慧,"},{"start":1256.79,"end":1271.182,"text":"科技、科技農業、科技漁業,我們就一直開始一直在推廣這啊。為什麼就只有這個判斷,就要組成農民和基層工作人員,組成協同的一個糾紛。這真的,我做定調起來我會知道,那真的遇到的時候,有時候農民的認定和工作人員的認定完全不同。"},{"start":1280.834,"end":1288.47,"text":"對呀,當然他們是有他的管理,但是那個公所的管事人員,他是有的來修緩。"},{"start":1289.591,"end":1301.92,"text":"所以我們要顧農民的管理,我們要顧我們官工的這個法令,他們要去考慮這個法令的事情。這真的造成了很大的困擾。所以我們如果用這個科技來看齋,專研型的實施,不管黨黨合、非合,來對用這個科技看齋,專研型實施絕對有很大的困擾。而且還有發動特調我們的從事從寬從幼。"},{"start":1318.511,"end":1324.117,"text":"的這個過程的一個要領。我也是要說,我們農民用農藥保險,因為農藥保險都不用勘測啦。現在有27項的平衡,54張的保單,用這個都不用勘測,你到時候三年期你就不會了。"},{"start":1342.093,"end":1355.84,"text":"好,這個部分再拜託我們農業部再繼續嚴厲,我們是要持續的進步,我們不要在原地踏風,這樣好不好?好,再來針對我們這個水利費的部分啦,水利費現在稍等要公佑啦,問題之前我們都聽到很多聲音,以前水利費每一年都有兩個月的經費,可以下去給我們農民修繕,他們的農水樓,都可以修繕農水樓,現在稍等要公佑,"},{"start":1370.487,"end":1396.099,"text":"你可以贏,自己開車,人家又整頓水庫,人家又不用水庫人員,你自己開車去我們訓練的主理站看。我們那裡的員工想你贏贏,大家贏贏有事情好做。而且怎樣?你跟人家說過去只要水路、水海、熱水走,跟我們主理站說,我們主理站那裡就有辦法發揮到他們的共鳴聲,我相信來協助的都有人。現在不是,現在都沒有。"},{"start":1399.341,"end":1407.448,"text":"我向委員報告,你剛才說的經費從過去水利費的時代到現在我們農水水的時代,那個經費從40多億變成每年127億,在第一天,我們的經費增加在那裡冠區增加,第二部分就是說,你剛才說的這些巨數的施政：丁學忠"},{"start":1425.953,"end":1431.517,"text":"就要聽一個人的話,要去怪討一個人。這個完全不是事實。我相信是事實。未來會不會這樣發生?未來將對我們分明關這個農水路的改善,你會如何讓我們有辦法適度、比較多資源來改善我們的農水路?"},{"start":1450.492,"end":1454.054,"text":"我知你講的這些我都知啦。阿未來呢?未來主委會更多嗎?"},{"start":1476.367,"end":1505.306,"text":"我剛才講的齁,現在的租金全屆期的水利額是在40幾億,現在變27億,平均一年一百二十七億,另外我們有意好特別預算喔。那個,那個,那個,否定喔,你講的,可能在這裡以前這是全國性還是只有福林關而已啊?喔,全國性的。全國性福林關,你知道分配在哪裡?沒有,啊這個分配就是看各地方的郡路要不要修理,齁,這個會去,我們每年都會有,有統計啦,每個地區沒什麼工啦。"},{"start":1506.668,"end":1507.469,"text":"發言委員．丁學忠"},{"start":1514.144,"end":1526.313,"text":"未來只要我們分明館只要這個農水路的輸給啦有輸給啦,借位補起來,我希望我們國庭出行都要轉入來幫你做什麼。我會軍心來幫你拜託。對啦,因為我可以退營。這個補份再拜託一下。好,再來我要請教我們議長,我們現在是運營比較重要還是廠商的利益比較重要?"},{"start":1542.005,"end":1554.616,"text":"我認為兩邊都要兼顧,尤其是整個國家的發展,我們有需要政府和民間做的來合作。我現在要跟議長報告的就是這樣,我們現在高屋鄉這個社區的生育層、這個県電層"},{"start":1563.336,"end":1567.557,"text":"臨時提案時間臨時提案時間臨時提案時間臨時提案時間臨時提案時間臨時提案時間臨時提案"},{"start":1592.822,"end":1598.448,"text":"對這件案件來做最重要的一個抗議。還有一項,我聽過說假地開說明會以地來施工,政府臨時在假地開說明會以地施工。"},{"start":1613.704,"end":1616.126,"text":"我跟委員報告他確實已經開了兩次的說明會那對地方的這些疑慮其實也都有說明那變電站這個環境的風險"},{"start":1630.576,"end":1651.544,"text":"但是,但是他的程序就是有不符合啊,假定開會議定是說,當天我到這裏的人我完全不知道要做這件事,結果是去跟六公里以外的政策去開社運會,那些社運會那些人說出事,去請人家沒人情要去請人家請請人,回來,完全我們這政策的人完全沒人去,這樣就尊崇。"},{"start":1655.081,"end":1664.611,"text":"這樣可以遵守嗎?我們要確定他的說明會開後有合法嗎?就是這樣怎麼會有合法?這樣就是完全的合法啊!當我們台灣比較好要做的工作,叫你說你要來說明給我知道說你這是要做什麼,未來就是要做什麼,做起來會怎麼樣?"},{"start":1675.862,"end":1698.251,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":1698.391,"end":1710.074,"text":"相信,相信,我們的經營有他們的管理,跟這個要求在控制。我相信我跟這案你互相了解。他們發展這個再生能源,讓地鐵更多,我們當然是支持。我們分離關,我們分離關事節都要大關,現在我們整個考核,"},{"start":1726.178,"end":1748.932,"text":"那位做2500多個這個利潤專區沒有不是這個樣子不是這個樣子對所以委員這樣的講法要看這個地區因為如果是在我們原來共產區那邊那只是同一個發展你用一個像是地地利啦福利跟專區啦只要用這個講法就給位很多人了我告訴你 欸不對 告訴你 你是要去德雲你不是去德雲回鄉喔"},{"start":1752.915,"end":1761.981,"text":"我跟委員補講,你剛才說的這個我們的專區裡面,漁電工廠裡面兩萬九百五千,基中有在做光電的兩千多公頃而已,沒有到兩萬多,第二點你剛才說的滴滴地區裡面有兩千一百六十二公頃,基中有大概六百多公頃去做漁電,就是做這個光電的地方,所以不是說所有的東西都去做這個,"},{"start":1782.884,"end":1791.415,"text":"所以我現在要講的意思是我們不要只想著我們要做什麼,我們就要做什麼。你要去地方,去了解到地方的人。"},{"start":1793.559,"end":1806.332,"text":"他們對我們的事情他們有認同,而且我們管政府他們對地方比較了解啊,公訴對地方比較了解,我們只要我們更強,我們希望說這個地方會做什麼,我們可以找管政府找地方公訴,做的機會康,在國中方面的一個認同。"},{"start":1833.735,"end":1840.822,"text":"謝謝丁委員學忠的質詢。接下來我們請登記第十位黃委員三三質詢。"}]}},{"id":"149143","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149143","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e968108b193f6ab30ca4684c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a61d5aae74ee2210ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:01:55 - 09:18:05","影片長度":"00:16:10","會議時間":"2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議","id":"院會-11-1-2","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2},"date":"2024-02-27","duration":970,"end_time":"2024-02-27T09:18:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-02-27T09:01:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":29,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時2分）主席，麻煩請行政院陳院長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，恭喜你當選連任。"],["吳委員秉叡：謝謝你，院長早。"],["陳院長建仁：早。"],["吳委員秉叡：這幾天，我想跟我有相同心情的臺灣人應該會有很多吧！因為2月24號，大家都看到台積電在日本熊本的一場落成典禮，再加上日本政府要對第二廠做更大規模的補助，身為一個臺灣人，對於臺灣的企業，作為世界第一名然後揚名世界，而且能夠協助日本的晶圓，我覺得非常與有榮焉啊！大大的提高了身為臺灣人的自信，以及對臺灣人對自我認識的層次，這一點要先跟你說明我的心情。"],["陳院長建仁：我們都很高興。"],["吳委員秉叡：顯現這些年來，我們國家的施政在這方面一定有相當的成功跟成就的地方，要先跟你恭喜。謝謝，因為我有看到龔政委也有去，這是很辛苦的，為了臺灣，事實上這件事情不是只有臺灣跟日本重視，全世界都非常的重視，所以這幾天身為臺灣人覺得「走路有風」，覺得非常的光榮。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我們感到光榮。"],["吳委員秉叡：增加了很大的自信。但是相對要跟院長提醒的是，美國參議院外交委員會在去年7月，眾議院在11月28號，對於他們香港經濟貿易辦事處的認證法作了檢討，這裡面最嚴重的是，表面上看起來對於香港在美國的3個總領事館能不能維持的問題，背後的深層原因，院長，你知道這個法為什麼會通過嗎？因為1997年時，英國跟中國訂約，香港要回歸給中國，那時候中國有做了保證，香港的經濟地位50年不變。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以他很明顯的跟中國的政治、中國的經濟處理方法、方向都不一樣，所以美國為了這個東西訂了這個特別法，給了香港非常多的優惠。今天這個認證法雖然是在討論香港的經濟貿易辦事處，但是它背後隱藏了四個東西：第一個，當然就是討論美國在香港的這三個總領事館，有沒有必須維持這個地位的存在？因為如果香港在反送中之後，被認定為只是中國的一個城市的話，哪有一個國家的城市可以取得這樣的特殊地位？所以這個是外交地位上的第一個檢討。","第二個，美國要考慮的是，香港貨物到美國的關稅，能不能再享有跟中國不一樣的地位？尤其川普現在在競選的期間，他已經公開宣稱如果他當選了，所有中國的關稅都要課60%以上，如果這個東西也被檢討了之後，香港會失去轉口貿易的地位。"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["吳委員秉叡：香港這個港口會急速的衰落，它這個東方明珠早就蒙塵了，現在更被諷刺說，有可能是未來金融中心廢墟的一個遺址，這個是一個諷刺的說法。","第三個，其實也是我們關心的一點，就是過去很多西方高科技資訊進入中國，是透過香港作為一個窗口，那這個也會被檢討，一樣的，以後要跟香港做交換的這些科技的、學習的、高科技的，一樣也會受到相同狀況的檢討。","最後一項是最嚴重的，美國甚至開始要討論將來港元、港幣能不能直接兌換美金，因為哪有一個國家的地方城市可以自己發行貨幣，然後還可以直接在國際上這樣自由地兌換美金呢？所以是有可能會被踢出美金結算這樣整體的機制。院長，我今天花了這麼多時間跟你做描述……"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝你的分析，我覺得這個分析很棒，確實是如此。"],["吳委員秉叡：這是要提醒我們的國家，一方面在經貿領域我們走出去了，未來日本、美國、德國台積電設廠之後，還有更多的中下游廠商、協力廠商也會到全世界去發展，當然顯示臺灣對全世界影響力是在增加了，可是有的地方增加，有的地方則是面臨了危機，我們臺灣過去因為跟隨了美國這樣的政策，對香港也有很多特殊的對待，美國現在一步一步檢討，這個切香腸一刀一刀一直切。想再請教我們的行政單位，有為這樣可能到來的那一天再去做準備嗎？如果港幣不能兌換美金，我認為香港的經濟在很快的時間內會發生系統性的風險，我們在香港有這麼多相互之間的投資跟設立了這麼多的機構，你有設立任何的防火設施來做這方面檢討的準備嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們有密切關注這整個情勢的發展，確實港澳在中國化之後，漸漸地失去了它在政治、經濟甚至在貿易上的地位，我們陸委會也有一直在監控，我們金管會也會注意到這個投資的情形，我請陸委會主委簡單的講一下。"],["邱主任委員太三：感謝委員的關心。確實香港整體的情勢自從反送中之後，有了急遽的變化，我們陸委會大概每年都會委託學者專家針對香港分幾個面向來進行探討：第一個，它的政治自由度；第二個，它的司法獨立性；第三個，它的社會問題，跟它的經貿整體包括金融地位的發展。有關於金融的部分，我知道金管會他們有一套監管的機制，我們大概也有參考各國的措施，事實上，這幾年我們都有跟各國針對香港的問題有一些訊息的交換跟合作的機制，所以委員的關注，我們確實都有持續在做這樣的一個關注，而政府相關部會針對您剛剛所提的幾個問題，他們也都有一套自己的監管機制。"],["陳院長建仁：我們請金管會主委簡單說明一下。"],["吳委員秉叡：請黃主委也來補充一下。"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前我們銀行、保險、證券對香港地區的投資，大概都逐年在緩步下降，尤其是銀行對於香港的暴險，在國際暴險中也降低到第5位左右，所以這部分的風險管理本來就是我們平常提醒銀行要注意到的，所以可以跟您報告，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：謝謝你們的說明。院長，但是我要提醒你，這絕對不只是部會、部門的工作，這是國家整體戰略層次與方向的思考。臺灣作為自由世界的經濟體，我們不可能不跟著美國的步伐！假設港元不能夠直接兌換美金……"],["陳院長建仁：很嚴重！"],["吳委員秉叡：那我們就不能容許港元可以兌換臺幣，因為拿到了不能兌換美金的港元能幹什麼？所以這些事情必須有以待之。我當然知道現在香港本身已在衰落，我們的暴險在降低，這是事實，而國安單位或陸委會也有在思考這問題，但這問題是需要國家，甚至是國安層面的國家及政府的整體思考：我們要如何面對這樣的變局？現在美國只有兩院的外交委員會，而下一步就是參議院與眾議院大會通過，再來就是美國總統要不要簽署這個檢討法案。這有可能很快，當然也有可能不一定會到來，但畢竟存在著巨大的風險。今年11月是美國的選舉年。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在兩黨都在拍胸脯比反共，看誰比較反中共，把中共列為假想敵，這是一個事實。當美國政策做了很大的改變時，臺灣如果不先準備在那邊，一旦遇到這樣的狀況要如何處理？我擔心萬一到時候抽手不及，就算現在降低了投資，可是如果怎麼樣了，或突然間的政策轉變，現在每年跟香港有這麼大的來往關係，有這麼多的金融往來，這麼多的投資在那邊時，就要面對這樣的風險。我知道今天不會有答案，但我要藉總質詢來提醒我們的行政團隊。"],["陳院長建仁：這是很重要的提醒。"],["吳委員秉叡：要存在這樣的觀念……"],["陳院長建仁：要有警覺性。"],["吳委員秉叡：而不是打算問題來了之後才處理！問題如果來了才處理是來不及的！"],["陳院長建仁：對，太晚了。"],["吳委員秉叡：好不好？謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝你的提醒。因為臺美關係現在不錯，我們也瞭解美國的動向。更重要的是，我們會讓各部會就香港可能的發展趨勢，預先採取相關的超前部署措施。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝你。作為區域立委，我也要為我的選區來做一些提醒。地方上有幾項建議是我一直非常關心、非常注意，也是我們新莊人非常重視的，第一個就是五股交流道的改善。當然，工程已經在進行，進度甚至超前，這點我非常感謝。我相信……"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝委員積極爭取。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個我一直在盯，我也知道進度有比原來預定得要快，不過之前發包了五次，流標到第五次才標出去。所以要快，但也要如質，品質也要維護，這樣我們當然很歡迎。","有關塭仔圳重劃區的開展，現在工程已經做到一半，未來會有更多人口遷入。西裝已經穿在身上才要改？這絕對很困難。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：不過沒辦法，而且還有很多負擔會加進來，譬如本來在三重的溪北轉運站要遷到新莊，把那麼多要上高速公路的客運，也就是原來從三重交流道上高速公路的移到新莊，從五股交流道上，從另一方面來說，這又是增加負擔，這個也必須要考慮在內。其實新莊的五股交流道已經是全臺灣最擁擠的交流道，幾乎每天都在塞車。部長是不是就這兩個關聯跟我們解釋一下？"],["王部長國材：第一，五股交流道經流標後現在正在趕工，訂於116年4月完工，如果能提前就提前。溪北客運轉運站是市政府自己用 BOT的方式在進行，並沒有向中央申請轉運站補助。重點是把重陽路上的這些國道客運放在那邊……"],["吳委員秉叡：不是補助問題而已！你要提醒他，不能讓新北市政府閉門造車！全臺灣最擁擠的交流道已經在五股交流道，你要他做終盤考慮，我也不一定反對。但既然是做終盤考慮，又把這麼多交通動線移到新莊來？到新莊就一定從五股上交流道，畢竟新莊沒有其他交流道，所以這部分你要提醒他，要一併考慮在內。"],["王部長國材：好，我們會來提醒，雖然這是它自己辦理的案子，尤其它跟五股交流道關係密切，以後它就會上下，這個部分我們來提醒，請它做整個交通的相關規劃、交通維持等等，我會請它特別注意。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為我擔心我們這麼努力做了一點點小小的改善、一部分，不能夠達到、完成大家的理想，你現在是雪上加霜，又增加它的負擔，這方面要綜合考慮。"],["王部長國材：好，沒問題。"],["吳委員秉叡：或是有其他方式上下交流道，走台65從五股上交流道一樣也是塞啊，你也知道，現在從台65向南到五股接土城一樣也是塞啊！"],["王部長國材：對，國三也塞。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以兩方面都有困難，考慮啦！"],["王部長國材：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：再來，第二個重要交通建設我要講的是台65線新莊增設南向第二出口，這個也是我很注重的，拜託要跟新北市政府溝通，我知道現在基本上同意了，可能今年就要發包施作。"],["王部長國材：可行性已經通過，現在做綜規。"],["吳委員秉叡：加油喔！","再來就是我們泰山板橋捷運輕軌支線，我稱它為後港西盛支線，部長，選前我也跟你開過幾次會，你也都贊成，甚至提出一些方案是走塔寮坑溪跟潭底溝的高架做路廊，你丟給新北市政府去研究，結果現在它的研究結果說要開一條30米的計畫道路，開玩笑，我們那邊的房子全部都已經蓋好了，你要開30米計畫道路是要拆誰的房子？要拆多少房子？所以你沒有好好的做行政指導，結果它自己閉門造車，弄了一個跟我們希望的目標、跟我們原來談好的東西越來越遠了的東西啊！這一點是不是很遺憾？你是不是要跟他加強溝通？我們希望的是走塔寮坑溪跟潭底溝的路廊去接樹林的監理站，所以不是它現在這個方案啦！"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，的確，有關泰山板橋的輕軌計畫，我們不斷的提醒，現在這個西盛支線，也就是F17站，我們特別有提到這個一定要來進行，它目前只有答應預留啦，後續……"],["吳委員秉叡：不是，但是它的研究報告裡面講說要準備30公尺的路廊，如果要30公尺的路廊，我們那個地方完全沒有這個路，你準備是要拆房子嗎？這個我們就不能夠同意這樣做了，走塔寮坑溪跟潭底溝的高架，不會有多少拆遷的問題，如果要用大量的拆遷，反而是利益沒有先享受就要先受害！"],["王部長國材：好，我們會去溝通。"],["吳委員秉叡：最後是電影文化中心，拜託大家，拜託院長要繼續給我們盯緊，謝謝你，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員秉叡的質詢。","接下來請丁委員學忠質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳秉叡","丁學忠","黃珊珊","林岱樺","陳雪生","張啓楷","徐富癸","謝衣鳯","林國成","蔡其昌","萬美玲","黃秀芳","呂玉玲"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2024-02-27"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00011","1130401_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130401_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.907218750000002,"end":11.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.82659375,"end":13.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18.57659375,"end":21.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.49596875,"end":22.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.04846875,"end":23.672843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":23.68971875,"end":24.044093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.044093750000002,"end":25.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.035343750000003,"end":29.140343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.730968750000002,"end":31.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.07659375,"end":34.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.19846875,"end":36.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.31221875,"end":37.594718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.15159375,"end":38.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.096593750000004,"end":40.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.23971875,"end":42.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.23096875,"end":46.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.72409375,"end":47.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.87159375,"end":50.470343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.094718750000006,"end":55.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.971593750000004,"end":56.56221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.15284375,"end":61.72596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.11409375,"end":62.721593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.26159375,"end":64.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.57346875,"end":67.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.73346875,"end":68.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.48846875000001,"end":71.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.80034375000001,"end":79.63034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.00284375000001,"end":73.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.38971875,"end":80.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.19534375,"end":82.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.05596875,"end":86.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":85.53659375000001,"end":85.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.68409375,"end":93.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.78846875,"end":94.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.59846875000001,"end":98.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.17596875000001,"end":99.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":99.01971875000001,"end":99.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.21784375,"end":100.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.87596875000001,"end":101.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.34409375000001,"end":103.82909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.48721875000001,"end":105.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.43221875,"end":106.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.19971875,"end":111.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.14846875,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.49409375,"end":115.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.59096875,"end":117.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.83534375,"end":119.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.43409375,"end":121.53096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.34096875,"end":122.94846875},{"speaker":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院長早這幾天我想跟我有相同心情的臺灣人應該會有很多吧因為我看到2月24號台積電在日本熊本的一場落成"},{"start":39.518,"end":63.304,"text":"這個大家看到那個典禮在讓日本政府要更加第二場要更大規模的這個補助那身為一個臺灣人對於臺灣的企業作為世界第一名然後揚名世界而且能夠協助日本的這個晶圓我覺得非常的與有榮焉啊大大的提高了臺灣身為臺灣人的自信跟對臺灣人對自我這個認識的一個層次這一點是要先"},{"start":70.421,"end":94.078,"text":"說明我的心情。顯現這些年來我們國家的施政在這一方面一定有相當的成功跟成就的地方要先跟你恭喜。那謝謝我有看到工政委也有去所以這個是很辛苦的為了臺灣事實上這件事情不是只有臺灣跟日本重視全世界都非常的重視所以"},{"start":94.673,"end":96.675,"text":"對於他們的香港經濟貿易辦事處的認證法在做了檢討。"},{"start":122.526,"end":145.587,"text":"這裏面最嚴重的表面上看起來是對於香港在美國的三個總理事館能不能維持的問題。另外一個深層原理是,院長你知道這個法為什麼會通過嗎?是因為1997的時候英國跟中國要訂約香港要回歸給中國。"},{"start":147.605,"end":171.158,"text":"那時候有做了保證中國有做了保證說香港的經濟地位50年不變所以他很明顯的跟中國的這個政治跟中國的經濟處理方法各式方向都不一樣所以美國為了這個東西來定了這個特別法那給了香港非常多的優惠"},{"start":173.305,"end":196.445,"text":"今天這個認證法雖然是在討論香港的這個經濟貿易辦事處但是它背後隱藏了四個東西第一個當然就是討論在美國的香港的這個三個總領事館有沒有必須要維持這個地位的存在因為你如果香港只變成在反送中之後被認定為只為中國的一個城市的話"},{"start":197.639,"end":223.875,"text":"哪有一個國家的城市有可以取得這樣的特殊地位。所以這是外交地位的第一個檢討。第二個再來要考慮的美國要考慮的就是你香港貨物到美國的關稅能不能再享有跟中國不一樣的地位。尤其川普現在在選競選的期間他已經公開宣稱說如果他當選所有中國的關稅都要課60%以上。"},{"start":227.128,"end":247.354,"text":"那香港呢?所以香港會失去,如果這個東西也被檢討了之後,香港會失去轉口貿易的這個地位。香港這個港口會急速的衰落。他這個東方民族早就蒙城了,現在更被諷刺說有可能是未來金融中心的廢墟的一個遺址。這個是一個諷刺的說法。"},{"start":250.269,"end":274.663,"text":"第三點其實也是我們關心的一點就是過去很多西方的科技、高科技資訊進入中國是透過香港作為一個窗口那這個也會被檢討以後一樣要跟香港做這些交換的這些科技的這個學習的高科技的一樣也會受到相同狀況的處討的這個檢討最後一項是最嚴重的"},{"start":279.77,"end":308.763,"text":"美國甚至開始要討論將來港元能不能直接兌換美金。港幣能不能直接兌換美金。因為哪有一個國家的地方城市你自己發行貨幣然後還可以直接在國際上面這樣自由的兌換美金呢?有可能會被踢出美金的結算這樣的整體的機制。院長我今天花了這麼多的時間跟你做描述。謝謝你的分析我覺得這個分析很棒確實是如此。是要提醒我們的國家"},{"start":309.585,"end":328.226,"text":"一方面我們在經貿領域我們走出去了未來的日本美國這個德國台積電設廠之後還有更多的中下游廠商協力廠商也會到全世界去發展這對台灣當然對全世界影響一直在增加了"},{"start":329.124,"end":352.899,"text":"可是有的地方增加有的地方面臨的危機我們台灣過去因為跟隨了美國這樣的政策對香港也有很多的特殊的這個對待那美國現在一步一步檢討這個切香腸一刀一刀一直切那再想請教我們的行政單位有為這樣的"},{"start":354.991,"end":376.391,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":376.511,"end":396.91,"text":"我們有密切在關注這個整個情勢的發展,確實港澳在中國化之後呢,漸漸的失去了它在政治、經濟,甚至在貿易上面的這個地位。那我們陸委會也有一直在監控,我們金管會也會注意到這個投資的情形。我是不是請陸委會的主委簡單的講一下?"},{"start":397.731,"end":427.074,"text":"感謝委員的關心確實香港整體的情勢呢自從這個反送中之後呢有急劇的變化那我們陸委會大概每年都會委託學者專家呢對香港分幾個面向的探討第一個他的政治的這樣的一個自由政治的自由度第二個他司法的獨立性第三個他社會的問題跟他經貿的一個整體包括金融地位的發展那有關於金融的部分我知道這個金管會他們有一套的監管的機制"},{"start":427.934,"end":451.523,"text":"我們大概也參考各國事實上這幾年我們都有跟各國珍貴香港的問題有一些的訊息的交換跟合作的機制那所以呢委員的關注我們確實都有持續的在做這樣的一個關注那政府相關部會也針對您剛剛所提的幾個問題他們都有一套自己的監管機制我們是請經管會主委簡單說一下目前"},{"start":454.224,"end":474.258,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":474.602,"end":502.323,"text":"好謝謝你們的說明但是院長我要跟你提醒這個絕對不是部門部會一部分的工作這是一個國家整體的戰略層次的方向的思考那台灣作為這個一個自由世界的經濟體我們不可能不跟著美國的步伐假設港元不能夠直接兌換美金我想我們就不容許港元可以來兌換台幣因為"},{"start":505.131,"end":531.006,"text":"如果我們拿到了不能兌換美金的港元,我們是要幹嘛呢?這些事情必須由以待之。我當然知道我們現在因為江港本身它自己在衰弱。我們的負險是在降低,這是事實。那我們國安單位或是說陸委會也有在思考這個問題。問題是這需要國家甚至是國安整層面的國家的整體政府的整體的思考。我們要如何面對一個這樣子的變局。"},{"start":531.991,"end":554.633,"text":"因為美國當然他現在只有兩院的外交委員會是再來下一步就是通過他們參議院跟眾議院的大會再來就是美國總統要不要簽署這個檢討的法案這個有可能會很快喔當然你有可能說不一定會到來但是存在著巨大的風險因為美國今年11月是他們的選舉年"},{"start":556.34,"end":579.772,"text":"阿現在兩黨都斷言堪比什麼人反共誰比較反中共把中共列為假想敵這是一個事實所以美國的政策如果做了一個很大的改變的時候台灣你如果不先準備在那邊遇到這樣的狀況我要如何處理的話我擔心的是到時候萬一措手不及就算你現在降低了投資你怎麼樣呢"},{"start":581.069,"end":581.71,"text":"那我知道今天不會有答案"},{"start":594.924,"end":624.034,"text":"我這個總質詢總是要提醒我們的行政團隊要存在著一樣這樣的觀念而不是說我們都是打造一段問題來了之後才處理這個問題如果來了你才處理是來不及的好不好謝謝您的提醒我們因為臺美關係現在不錯我們也了解美國的動向那更重要的我們會讓各部會就香港可能的發展的這個趨勢來預先採取相關的超前部署的措施"},{"start":624.434,"end":649.583,"text":"好謝謝你那作為區議員我也要為我的選區來做一些提醒那我一方上面有幾樣建設是我一直非常關心也非常注意也是我們新莊人非常重視的第一個就是五股交流道的改善那這個工程當然已經在進行甚至進度也超前這個非常感謝那我相信謝謝委員你積極爭取"},{"start":652.004,"end":680.54,"text":"我這個我也是一直在盯當然我知道進度是有比較比原來的預定進度要快但之前因為發報5次留標到第5次才標出去所以事實上如果能夠快但是當然要如此本質也是要維護我們當然是很歡迎而且溫子郡重劃區的開展現在已經工程做到一半未來會有更多人口遷入"},{"start":681.508,"end":706.063,"text":"西裝已經穿在身上要蓋齁,絕對很困難的,不過你沒辦法,而且很多的負擔要加進來,譬如說這個本來在三重的西北轉運站現在又要遷到新莊來,又要把那麼多要上高速公路的這些客運,又從原來三重交流道上高速公路的,現在又移到新莊從五股交流道又上。"},{"start":707.559,"end":736.326,"text":"另外一方面又是增加負擔這個也要必須要考慮在內所以這個東西我們新莊的這個這麼五股交流道其實已經是全台灣現在最擁擠的交流道他的他事實上每天幾乎都在塞車了那部長是不是就這兩個觀點跟我們解釋一下第一個這個五股交流道雖然劉標現在在趕工就116年事業完工了如果能提前就提前"},{"start":737.196,"end":761.312,"text":"那西北客運轉運站這是市政府他自己用BOT方式在進行他沒有申請中央在轉運站上面的補助那他重點當然是說把重陽路這些國道可以放在那邊不是補助的問題而已喔你要提醒他啊 西北市政府他不能夠閉門召軍全台灣最擁擠的交流道已經在五股交流道那你要跟他中盤考慮我也不是一定反對"},{"start":762.273,"end":787.047,"text":"但是你裝盤考慮你又把這麼多的交通動線又移到新莊來然後新莊來一定從五穀藏交流道嘛不然你新莊沒有其他的交流道所以這一部分你要提醒他說你要一併考慮在內我們要來提醒雖然他是自己辦理的案子啦那就交通就尤其他跟五穀交流道關係密切以後他就上下嘛這部分我們來提醒整個交通的這些"},{"start":788.268,"end":805.06,"text":"吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡"},{"start":805.22,"end":822.045,"text":"方式上下交流道走台65從五谷上交流道一樣也是塞阿你也知道現在從台65向南到五谷接土城一樣也是塞阿所以兩方面都有困難考慮了再來"},{"start":822.825,"end":849.804,"text":"第二個重要的交通建設我們講到的是我們臺65線新庄征社南巷的第二個出口這個也是我很注重的拜託要跟新北市政府的溝通我知道現在已經基本上同意了可能今年就要發報司做了可行進行通過現在做中規要加油再來就是我們這個泰山板橋捷運輕軌的這個支線我叫他做後港西勝支線那"},{"start":852.403,"end":864.693,"text":"之前選前部長我也去跟你開過幾次會你也都贊成然後甚至提出一些方案是走塔留坑溪跟潭堤溝的這個高架做路廊"},{"start":865.64,"end":890.234,"text":"結果現在新北市政府你丟給他研究他的研究結果說要開一個30米的計畫道路開玩笑我們那邊的這個房子全部都已經蓋好了你要30米的計畫道路你要去猜誰的房子那要猜多少房子所以你沒有好好的做行政指導結果他自己閉門造句弄了一個根本就跟我希望的目標跟我們原來談好的東西越來越遠的東西啊"},{"start":891.917,"end":896.221,"text":"這一點是不是很遺憾是不是你要跟他加強溝通我們希望的是走"},{"start":897.54,"end":898.06,"text":"他目前就答應預留了。"},{"start":959.469,"end":963.773,"text":"謝謝吳委員秉慧的質詢。接下來我們請丁委員學中質詢。"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}