{"total":{"value":141,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2024-03-04"],"total_page":2,"ivods":[{"id":"150384","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150384","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddae29f6d3975c0b4c2dd7be9832461c05f8ba9b0039caa7a64159dd19c61a0ed75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:39:18 - 12:47:54","影片長度":"00:08:36","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":516,"end_time":"2024-03-04T12:47:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T12:39:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":828,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（12時39分）好的，謝謝召委。秘書長，我想請問一下，我們的債務清理條例大概是民國95年通過的，從95年到現在已經將近18年，目前司法院對於債清條例的成效還有現在執行的狀況，您的看法是什麼？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們請民事廳周廳長說明一下。"],["周廳長玫芳：謝謝委員關心。關於我們目前債務清理條例的申請事件跟裁定准許的比例在……"],["黃委員珊珊：數量應該少很多了吧？"],["周廳長玫芳：其實有在下降。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是現在有一些新興的狀況，而15年來大概我們債清條例的內容其實沒有太多的修正，對嗎？幾乎沒有對於新的狀況做一些調整。這邊我想跟秘書長分享的是，現在臺灣最大的影子銀行，你知道是誰嗎？影子銀行，非金融機構其實都在做債務的融資甚至租賃，對吧？融資公司有6,000多家，有三大家融資租賃公司，且其資產非常的龐大，但是他們都在債清條例的範圍之外，對吧？目前為止它不適用債清條例嗎？"],["周廳長玫芳：這個部分是否有適用債清條例，不曉得委員關心的是不是所謂它的金融機構的定義的大小的問題？"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，沒錯，因為我們以前的卡債，立法的時候主要是針對銀行，尤其是當時的信用卡卡債，然後它可能是沒有擔保，所以它有一些所謂信用上面的風險，而且銀行應該要告知，或者是利率上他要負擔的部分，但是經過10多年，銀行被管得很嚴，可是外面的融資越來越多，大家看過一個影片叫做「山道猴子的一生」嗎？免頭款、全貸款，還可以再超貸一筆錢去改裝。所以很多的年輕人幾乎就是掉到這個陷阱裡面。","最嚴重的，我看到很多民間的新聞，有人買了一台休旅車，貸款90萬，後來錢不夠，融資公司又打來行銷，表示你還可以再轉貸，變成貸147萬。也就是這些融資公司它是用行銷、促銷的方式，讓借錢的人借更多的錢、負擔更多的債，但是它又不受到你們原來債清條例的規範，也不是屬於原來民國95年定義的金融機構，到現在為止，你們有沒有要調整所謂金融機構認定的標準？"],["周廳長玫芳：跟委員報告，關於剛剛委員提到的二個問題，就是這些金融管理融資公司其實在債務清理條例中它是債權人的地位，而這些金融融資公司，或者是我們一般的資產管理公司，它雖然不能像銀行那樣去召開所謂債權人的協商會議……"],["黃委員珊珊：它也是一個所謂融資的類金融機構。"],["周廳長玫芳：對，它是大宗的債權人，沒有錯，但是就債務人來適用這一個消債條例，其實是沒有影響的。"],["黃委員珊珊：是沒有影響，它可以適用。"],["周廳長玫芳：對，它可以適用。"],["黃委員珊珊：可是我們現在查到的是，你們司法院在97年的時候，有提了一個辦理消費者債務清理事件應行注意事項，對於金融機構的定義是要經主管機關認定，我剛剛才問了金管會，他們不認為這是他們管的人，所以這個國家是要推來推去嗎？"],["周廳長玫芳：不是這樣的意思，我們的意思是，當時我們對於金融機關的定義是去參考金融合併法，然後設定這幾個金融機構，我們主要的目的是因為在消債條例實行的時候，要有一個主要最大的金融機構去號召其他各個金融機構……"],["黃委員珊珊：像中租公司這麼大的融資租賃公司還不夠大嗎？"],["周廳長玫芳：主要是中租公司……"],["黃委員珊珊：我是說類似啦！我沒有什麼意見，我只是說15年了，這個機制該修正就要修正；第二個，這些人他們的狀況已經超過當年的卡債，規模跟數量都已經比卡債有過之而無不及了；第三，現在幾乎人手都可以收到任何的簡訊，說你可以來借錢，所以非常多的年輕人就用這個方式去借了更多的錢，然後債清條例又不能適用，造成我們不管是對於打詐也好，對於投資詐騙也好，對於這種融資公司利用合法掩護他賺取暴利的這種行為也好，其實司法院只要改這個注意事項就可以了，如果可能的話，而且這個案子，上一屆的江永昌委員其實也問過，你們說要研議，研議到現在有答案了嗎？"],["周廳長玫芳：金融機構的部分，我們會再考慮，但剛剛委員提到的第二個……"],["黃委員珊珊：納入債清。"],["周廳長玫芳：第二個問題跟一般社會大眾比較有關係的就是超過擔保價值以外，無擔保的額度又變大了……"],["黃委員珊珊：是的。"],["周廳長玫芳：比如說第二次擔保、第三次擔保，這個部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在幾乎是非常普遍，沒有車也可以買車，買了車還可以再貸更多錢，你說它沒有影響交易秩序，我認為這是假裝看不見啦！所以司法院可以先檢討這個部分嗎？去年說要研議，但到現在還沒有給答案。"],["周廳長玫芳：這個部分是可以用的，這是我一直想跟委員報告的是……"],["黃委員珊珊：好，請給我一個正式的書面。"],["周廳長玫芳：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：告訴大家可以用，讓法院可以受理，我們一般消費者也可以去申訴。"],["周廳長玫芳：也就是超過擔保物價值的無擔保債務，還是有債清條例的適用，這個是確定的。"],["黃委員珊珊：那就把它明文化。第二個，你們這個所謂的注意事項，也把它納進來，把金融機構的定義，在你們的注意事項裡面清楚的修正，融資租賃公司超過額度的部分要視同所謂的金融機構，至少在債清條例的這一點裡面，可以嗎？"],["周廳長玫芳：這個部分我們在書面的說明……"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思就是不要讓這種明明就存在的，我們卻假裝沒看見，然後讓它不斷的坐大，將來就會跟當年放任卡債一樣，臺灣政府現在是放任影子銀行坐大的最大幫兇，金管會不管，司法院這邊就是等著看，所以大家都不管，融資租賃公司變成化外之地；第二個，他們的資產已經大到不能倒，他們三家公司的資產加起來已經1.5兆，他們的應收帳款就有1兆，然後呆帳可以有上百億，表示我們有多少人是在這上面受到很大的衝擊，如果我們要導正相關的社會風氣，我們首先要納管這些本來就應該管的人，好嗎？麻煩秘書長，這個部分從去年到現在我想很多都有做過檢討，債清條例整個適用的範圍跟內容麻煩你給我正式、完整的說明。"],["吳秘書長三龍：好。謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請游顥委員、游顥委員、游顥委員。","接下來請顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員。","我們再請賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員。","今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復的，再請司法院這邊能夠儘速送交個別委員還有本會。","本次的會議就到此結束。現在散會，謝謝大家。","散會（12時48分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","翁曉玲","黃國昌","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","柯建銘","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鄭天財Sra 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個委員會不一樣"},{"start":2250.748,"end":2259.135,"text":"那我也覺得這樣似乎不是很妥啦因為總是最好是能夠八個委員會都是一視同仁不是說我們這邊"},{"start":2260.731,"end":2261.592,"text":"還是要有共識就是三黨的共識"},{"start":2292.064,"end":2292.084,"text":"黃委員請說"},{"start":2319.843,"end":2342.76,"text":"謝謝主席,的確如同主席所講的這個委員會,空間佈置的改善是在2016年的時候那那個時候因為2016年的時候有很多國會改革的法案那本來是希望說如果能夠仿效像國外聽證程序的進行的時候那看藉由空間的改善是不是可以達到這樣的效果"},{"start":2344.06,"end":2358.553,"text":"當初我必須要說做這樣子空間布置的改變的委員其實是利益良善他沒有什麼不好的意思但不過也如同主席所講的就是看起來這幾年"},{"start":2360.975,"end":2379.053,"text":"降下來,空間的改善不僅沒有辦法達到當初所想要達到的目的,反而有多所不變。既然今天有司法法制委員會的委員依照程序提的這樣子,這個事情可能跟司法法制委員會"},{"start":2380.174,"end":2409.574,"text":"接下來如何運作比較有關係所以我是不是建議看是不是翁委員這邊就正式提一個臨時的提案然後今天我們在委員會當中那如果主席認為適當的話我們就來進行處理那假設如果多數的委員都贊成的話那接下來再由委員會這邊的同仁跟秘書處那邊去聯繫看要如何的改變"},{"start":2410.094,"end":2422.91,"text":"請說"},{"start":2424.452,"end":2448.037,"text":"這個我建議這個有關這個空間配置的改變因為他也會牽涉到我們立法院的秘書處還有包括這個空間配置改變他不是只有裝潢拆掉而已他所有的大概室內配線什麼這些設施都必須要重新布置裝潢那這部分我建議是不是是不是我們就不用在會議上面用"},{"start":2449.232,"end":2449.752,"text":"國昌委員請問這個想法怎麼樣"},{"start":2478.317,"end":2494.676,"text":"那就要看齁 看 呃 剛18位委員講的是委員會的協商還是院會的協商 齁 因為這個跟司法法制委員會當然 任何空間的配置 立法院即使換一個垃圾桶都需要秘書處 統人的協助"},{"start":2497.279,"end":2515.849,"text":"那只不過說這個整個在運作上面顯然是司法法制委員會的事情跟其他7個委員會一點關係都沒有所以當然我也認同程序上我們未必今天要花時間來處理這件事情如果大家都有共識的話那只不過說"},{"start":2517.43,"end":2530.582,"text":"如果整個方向上面多數的意見是贊成改變的話那我就認為一塊不一次那理由是說空間的配置如同剛剛省委員所講的他會牽涉到了一些"},{"start":2531.957,"end":2559.393,"text":"那些可能質詢跟備詢台要把它移回來難免會有一些時間上面的要求那只不過說如果能夠盡速做一個決定那也便於本院秘書處或者是議事處乃至於總務處那邊的同仁他們找一個適當的時間空檔來做這個處理那是說要在委員會上面正式處理還是會後"},{"start":2560.914,"end":2588.493,"text":"那主席要召集司法法制委員會的委員們開一個程序上面的事項的討論這個我都沒意見那我是認為說既然有委員提了這個案子那我們就盡速把這個案子給處理那先進行今天正式的議程那今天正式的議程處理完了以後再來處理這個程序上面的事項或許也是一個值得思考的安排"},{"start":2593.469,"end":2606.958,"text":"我對黃總召的意見我是有認同覺得說這個事情要透過黨團來討論那因為畢竟在第9屆的時候黃委員也在那是不是我這樣聽到不是要黨團來討論嗎我聽到的"},{"start":2614.398,"end":2641.66,"text":"我只聽到後半啦,好好好,那可能我誤會我只聽到黃委員的後半因為他說他對於是否交付黨團結上沒有意見,那我以為他也認同啦那基本上呢,因為我們在第九屆的時候,這個委員會的設置那在當年要說明一下當時的一個現場的狀況因為在第九屆的第一年,當時呢,朝野為了一個前瞻基礎建設的預算曾經發生了相當多的會場上的衝突"},{"start":2642.981,"end":2670.949,"text":"那麼最慘烈的是在九流大禮堂那如果大家願意去釣一下那時候的歷史影片可以看得很清楚那時候在我們最後排的媒體那時候都帶著這個很有份量的攝影器材那為了到主席台前去攝取畫面反而形成了對於在前面議事衝突當中有肢體互動的委員一些傷害我個人也受傷"},{"start":2672.096,"end":2694.559,"text":"我的受傷不見得是來自於推擠而是來自於後面媒體的壓力體重壓在雙方的身上所造成的傷害那因此在那個時候朝野都同意先找一個委員會將我們委員的問政空間跟媒體的採訪空間適度做個區隔甚至到現在九樓大禮堂大家去看一下"},{"start":2695.14,"end":2721.38,"text":"那個全選9樓的會議室啊它事實上媒體被安排的採訪空間是在2樓它在上面有一個大概類似一個像旁聽席的那樣的設置但是呢那樣的一個設置對於媒體來講他們在取鏡頭上由高而下鏡頭的變化比較少後來我在第10屆的後面3年都在財政委員會財政委員會就形成一個"},{"start":2722.381,"end":2745.254,"text":"沒有要求媒體到上面的一個媒體專用席而允許他們是在九樓大禮堂最後面所以後來財政委員會在九樓大禮堂的使用媒體的確很配合都是在九樓大禮堂的最後面都不會在我們會議進行中衝到我們會議桌的前面來"},{"start":2746.235,"end":2766.645,"text":"那我們覺得也達到同樣的效果因此在第9屆到第10屆這8年以來只有我們302司法法制委員會為了要做示範我們先講媒體採訪區做的區隔那其他委員會本來是要看我們執行的狀況再來做進一步的改善"},{"start":2767.352,"end":2791.155,"text":"那後來這個改善在九樓大禮堂已經形成了一個比較穩定的慣例了所以後續的其他的工程其他委員會就沒有跟進所以我說這個事情我後來一聽到黃委員的意見我是有部分的認同當然這不是他的原意我誤會了就是說我們這樣的一個變更在當年是經過有那樣的環境時空背景之下所做的決定"},{"start":2792.156,"end":2818.3,"text":"那如果現在要調整是其他的委員會比照我們司法法制委員會302會議的建制將媒體區跟會議區隔開還是把這個改回原來媒體區跟會議區完全沒有區隔的情況我是覺得是不是由朝野各黨團到請我們韓院長來進行協商因為這個不是涉及到一個司法法制委員的事情"},{"start":2819.3,"end":2834.704,"text":"當時是基於全院8個委員會的需求請司法法制委員會先做個示範那這個示範到底是可行不可行是要跟進還是要恢復原狀我建請是由主席啊建請是不是由我們韓院長召集這個8個委員會來進行黨團協商 以上"},{"start":2847.957,"end":2869.398,"text":"主席各位委員,不好意思我剛進來,也許還不是完全基本狀況,可能談的就是這個非議事的布置的問題嘛。我跟你們坦白說,過去有做這樣的布置,非常有意見。為什麼呢?因為議會執行的時候,我們過去就很習慣站著,老氣血。"},{"start":2873.902,"end":2892.019,"text":"那個媒體也要提醒,那個還沒有像阿借,坦白講又斜斜的,所以很不方便可是為什麼會這樣呢?當然講白了就是第3個屆嘛,第9屆,小段、賴岳康"},{"start":2896.584,"end":2916.583,"text":"那很堅實,我在黨內也跟他講,那沒有辦法溝通那算了沒有關係,很堅實,又還沒有什麼意見,就試看看,試看看那今天我們重新討論這個問題,我認為啦我們今天的議程照策略,等一下用臨時提案來處理就好了我覺得這很簡單處理,這幾兩天就好了"},{"start":2926.072,"end":2933.598,"text":"剛才佳敏講的是有道理,所謂的主意是說,大家開會,你現在下去內政委員會去看,根本沒有辦法開會啊。在這一場,高雄市委這一場、廣泊市這一場,全部媒體級的,到現在也沒辦法開會。"},{"start":2942.287,"end":2967.428,"text":"所以小段那時候就把媒體放在那一區不讓他們進來這樣有一個很好的空間這個牽涉到議員改建的問題議員的會議室坦白講60名人你把他們牽到這裡來的時候以前是小學嘛當然是不符合一個國會的樣態會議室的大小怎麼配置都有問題"},{"start":2968.929,"end":2991.02,"text":"所以呢,到陰險就落的時候,就把它改為那媒體站在那一區,這樣比較安心的空間這也是一撮奧特利啦那今天要改變齁,那天副總長有跟我講我說我們這樣做的對面齁,你可以看到我的眼睛"},{"start":2993.954,"end":3009.533,"text":"有時候總預算審查的時候,要用兩個房間,人員要進來說明預算,都要排一大堆,在三樓上面太小的空間,而且每個都窺著一個,所以後來這個會議室變成什麼?"},{"start":3012.864,"end":3013.905,"text":"好 謝謝客會委員 是 羅委員"},{"start":3040.953,"end":3060.927,"text":"我倒是蠻認同柯委員的提議啦我這件事也不用弄到太複雜那如果說有媒體的那個隔開保持我們會議進行順利的這個需求我們可以維持限制但實際上也就是多兩個質詢台嘛那我想說剛剛柯總召的這個建議我倒是蠻認同的"},{"start":3061.667,"end":3086.548,"text":"但是我覺得用什麼程序來處理我也是贊同我們國參委員講的越快越好因為我們盡快讓我們這個我們司法法制整個的問政我們能夠趕快順利所以我覺得是越快越好啦以上那今天齁程序先照常進行等一下一個臨時提案提出來每個人都請這麼多人然後再送朝廷相約吧再處理後續的程序就可以了應該都有機會啦"},{"start":3091.192,"end":3115.501,"text":"那這樣齁 各位委員我想說是不是說麻煩翁委員用一個書面或是等下提那個臨時提案那我們就 因為我想說其實大家都蠻共識的嘛沒有什麼爭議嘛就蠻共 我就都有共識了那待會提個臨時提案那我們這邊就直接把它拆出去好嗎 好 謝謝各位那先跟各位委員說聲抱歉 因為"},{"start":3116.121,"end":3116.621,"text":"先介紹一下應邀列席的官員"},{"start":3142.682,"end":3170.192,"text":"司法院秘書長吳三龍秘書長民事廳廳長周梅芳廳長行事廳廳長李踏任行政訴訟及懲戒廳廳長陳怡怡少年及家事廳廳長謝敬惠司法行政廳廳長高玉順"},{"start":3174.054,"end":3180.077,"text":"憲法法庭書記廳廳長 楊浩清秘書處處長 楊思璇公共關係處處長 劉格倫新聞及法治宣導處處長 陳庭裕人事處處長 陳美瞳資訊處處長 何君豪"},{"start":3199.912,"end":3201.873,"text":"主席各位委員各位先生各位女士"},{"start":3227.708,"end":3254.305,"text":"本人僅代表司法院向貴委員會報告司法院本年度的立法計畫第一項是關於刑事訴訟法第245條及245條之一修正草案為了完善刑事訴訟法關於被告訴訟前的保障以偵查行論中辯護前以及所為限制"},{"start":3256.175,"end":3281.819,"text":"或禁止．其救濟等事項．有徵修相關規範的必要．因此擬計刑事訴訟法第245條及245條之一修正草案第二項修法是關於刑事訴訟法．非侵入制裁證部分條文修正草案是為了"},{"start":3283.288,"end":3303.366,"text":"完善刑事訴訟法關於檢察事務官、司法警察官、司法警察調查及說證之必要處分﹐所應踐行的正當法律程序﹐所以有徵修相當規範的必要﹐因此擬計刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案﹐"},{"start":3306.496,"end":3309.44,"text":"那第三項是關於刑事訴訟法第126條第441條修正草案為了增進"},{"start":3317.25,"end":3336.214,"text":"．法院程系效能以及兼顧當事人訴訟前意．因此修正民事訴訟法第126條及441條．使質答言得為法院內的文事送達．並規定在監所之當事人一上訴期間．向監所長官提出上訴狀．視為上訴期間之上訴．"},{"start":3341.94,"end":3368.312,"text":"第4項修法．是關於法院執執法．部分條文修正草案．為了協治財經金融會計及營商工程專業案件．高等法院有徵涉司法事務官之必要．另外為了提供良好的司法硬體設備．目前已有多項籤件工程進行中．高等法院現有編制．"},{"start":3369.979,"end":3370.72,"text":"以上這些"},{"start":3391.887,"end":3419.103,"text":"這個法案本願陸力發展透明公正有效力的現代化法制實現保障民眾事頌權益值得敬愛的司法敬請各位委員主教此外為了要增進少年事件的少年非性調查評估及處議需要增補足夠的少年調查保護人力並且為了要"},{"start":3421.431,"end":3446.609,"text":"增進解決少年及家事問題．優化處理少年家事案件的體制．將規劃成立北部少年及家事法院．又因近年來民刑事宜送案件大量增加．需要增補足夠的法官書記官等人力照料．因此總言而法所規定本院及所屬機關總言而．"},{"start":3449.903,"end":3475.22,"text":"上限一萬五千人．有不乎使用的問題．敬請各位委員協志與指教以上報告謝謝謝謝秘書長那青灣代表已經報告完畢了那相關的書面報告內容再麻煩各位參閱並且列入公報記錄"},{"start":3480.623,"end":3480.643,"text":"秘書長"},{"start":3509.635,"end":3527.147,"text":"請教一下秘書長對於我們現在檢警不管是在查緝毒品查緝私菸追蹤組織犯罪或者是在追蹤詐騙集團的時候他們用GPS追蹤定位器這樣子的一個證據收集有沒有證據能力"},{"start":3530.976,"end":3541.33,"text":"這一部分在目前署上就這一部分都在就涉及到個案他會就個案情形來"},{"start":3543.238,"end":3569.33,"text":"來做一些認定我直接跟秘書長講啦那不是針對個案的情形來做認定啦根本就沒有證據能力嘛僅僅用GPS辦案根本沒有證據能力最高法院都有判決了你今天還坐在這邊是個案認定我們海巡署的同仁非常辛苦啊查緝私淹用GPS去追蹤那些走資集團的行蹤後來被判刑欸"},{"start":3570.703,"end":3595.742,"text":"縱安法院在判決裡面說這個GPS去追蹤行蹤是違法的不僅沒有證據能力還有妨礙秘密罪的問題那我的問題就來了縱安法院自己都講了GPS辦案在刑事偵查上面有它的必要欠缺法源的依據應該要趕快修法那為什麼到目前為止從這個案子出來已經幾年了"},{"start":3598.123,"end":3623.689,"text":"司法院為什麼提的立法計畫裡面針對刑事訴訟法這個部分應該要補強他的證據能力完全沒有任何立法計畫請秘書長說明委員的提示很重要這不是我的提示啦這是最高法院法官的提示啦那這一部分這個修法方面我們會請我們刑事廳會進訴來說你說你們會請你們刑事廳進訴來演你什麼時候要提出來"},{"start":3628.061,"end":3645.532,"text":"什麼時候要提出來這個就因為一般修法會有一定的流程對嘛我剛剛就秀給祕書長你看一下這個是最高法院106年台上至3788號刑事判決這判決裡面最高法院的法官就寫得很清楚啊"},{"start":3646.272,"end":3673.297,"text":"要趕快推動修法啊要不然我們的那些檢警人員去查緝私菸結果最後被妨害秘密罪辦欸秘書長你不會覺得很離譜嗎來我進一步問啦我們從1992年到現在我們時事訴訟法針對強制處分的部分修法修了幾次關於GPSM化車等等科技偵查的部分推動修法修了幾次秘書長你知不知道"},{"start":3676.274,"end":3703.561,"text":"不好意思我時間有限趕快針對問題回答關於跟委員所提示這個科技偵查還有保障法這一部分其實我們刑事廳都已經有相當的準備了都已經有準備了什麼時候提出來我直接跟秘書長講1992年到現在強制處分司法院刑事訴訟法修了快20次跟科技偵查有關係的"},{"start":3705.12,"end":3717.367,"text":"秘書長你知道幾次嗎0次0次現在大家都是在期待說要推科技偵查法但問題是科技偵查法的條文秘書長你看過沒有"},{"start":3718.639,"end":3740.207,"text":"這一部分因為是屬於這個科技偵查及保障法是屬於法務部主管的我就知道你會這樣說你說科技偵查法是法務部主管的你實際去看裡面的條文每一個條文都是在處理刑事證據能力跟刑事強制處分的問題啊那為什麼會淪落到法務部的手上司法院不積極嘛"},{"start":3741.744,"end":3770.08,"text":"至少門全選嘛結果這跟司法院沒有關係嘛但問題是你去看科技偵查法裡面的條文就像德國全部都規定在刑事訴訟法裡啊今天為什麼法務部他要推動特別法因為刑事訴訟法不修嘛司法院不動嘛你剛剛說你們科技偵查的條文都已經準備好了什麼時候可以提出來今天會後提供給我你們到底準備了哪些條文出來可以嗎"},{"start":3772.291,"end":3795.868,"text":"剛剛秘書長說都準備好了嘛等一下會後提供給我可以嗎?這個這一部分我請我們刑事廳來說好沒有關係齁因為我沒有時間聽你在那邊拖啦會後請秘書長就你們已經準備好的條文提出來給我下一個問題法官跟法官關說針對個案進行關說來請問一下秘書長在我國構成什麼罪?"},{"start":3802.065,"end":3811.872,"text":"香港歸該名者兩個人一個跟人家關說一個接受關說還進一步的去關說在我國刑事司法上面現在構成什麼罪"},{"start":3815.158,"end":3840.536,"text":"這個就是在有關的這個關說他應該在有一定的規定什麼規定講出來就是說這個涉及這個當然是個案啦個案我跟你講這不是審判中的個案這已經get over了已經決定了蕭永光什麼時候去跟高明哲關說高明哲什麼時候去跟另外一個女法官關說"},{"start":3842.211,"end":3843.032,"text":"防礙司法公正罪"},{"start":3864.458,"end":3872.373,"text":"現在有嗎我現在就具體問你啦蕭仰規也好高明哲也好這兩個人哪一個人受到什麼形式處罰有嗎"},{"start":3875.171,"end":3895.106,"text":"那因為這個有時候涉及個案他一些政績事實認定的為什麼政績和政績事實啊來來來我跟秘書長講怎麼你當秘書長對於這些跟司法院業務這麼密切相關的怎麼看起來這麼不熟啊蕭永規高明哲兩個工程會都已經認定確定了事實已經認定完畢了這個案子也終結了"},{"start":3900.643,"end":3926.152,"text":"一個休職6年一個降二級改序大家看不下去啊法官關說司法這麼嚴重的事情一個休職6個月一個降二級改序秘書長你看得下去嗎這個因為懲戒跟刑事他的刑事案件他的這個我等一下再跟你講刑事案件啦就懲戒的部分你看得下去嗎"},{"start":3928.052,"end":3954.514,"text":"你覺得法官跟法官關說受到這種懲戒處分你認同嗎?因為現在在懲戒法院他也已經都法院化了那涉及個案他如何認定這個屬於個案你連一個基本的態度都沒有司法局秘書長應該有什麼態度?法官跟法官關說絕不寬戴還有資格當法官喔?"},{"start":3955.984,"end":3973.736,"text":"你為什麼當一個司法院的秘書長連這個基本態度都講不出來啊?有這麼困難嗎?這個...這個既然他有...有些他涉及到個案在...在處理啦齁我剛剛都已經跟你講這個案子已經GAME OVER了這不是信訴中的個案啦"},{"start":3975.083,"end":4003.925,"text":"那現在他還是會有後續的案件嘛有後續案件我直接請教秘書長啊因為我非常震驚啊你對於司法不熟到這種程度可以當司法院秘書長不好意思啊吳法官您是法界的前輩我這樣說雖然很失禮但是人民對於司法的期待絕對不僅僅只有這個樣子請問司法院贊不贊成並不法官說罪"},{"start":4005.236,"end":4033.319,"text":"站不站成法官關說法官政治人物去關說法官應不應該接受刑事處罰現在我在問你的是立法政策喔現行法沒有規定啊你不熟然後在那邊講說什麼要看其他法規規定我作為一個法律人我負責任的跟你講現行對於關說司法沒有刑事處罰的規定period句號我現在是問立法政策的問題"},{"start":4034.98,"end":4044.206,"text":"關說法官應不應該構成刑事犯罪你作為司法院秘書長的態度是什麼那這個關說當然不允許關說啊對!應不應該做刑事處罰那這個齁那這個我們當然這個整個因為這個已經不容許關說了嘛阿至於說要科不容許關說奇怪你講話怎麼不像法律人阿不容許關說請問法律效果是什麼"},{"start":4063.001,"end":4089.521,"text":"那當然涉及要必要修法或立法那另外一個層次的問題所以我現在在問嘛你作為司法院的秘書長司法院這麼贊成定不法關說罪怎麼一個基本的問題要混這麼久啊那當然我們我們尊重這個這個是不允許關說啦必要當然不允許關說嘛問題是可笑的事情現在關說司法就沒處罰嘛你不會覺得很荒謬嗎"},{"start":4090.799,"end":4105.181,"text":"那這個有必要的話那就來可以行事責任啊所以你贊成可以行事責任嗎那這個已經社會在變嘛需要的話那當然就好啦我繼續問齁"},{"start":4107.8,"end":4129.609,"text":"另外一個受不了的事情針對重大的貪污犯看得慢跑得快坐牢坐得短我現在先具體的請教零一四貪污的案件2012年10月起訴到現在判決還沒有確定審判拖延了這麼久針對這樣子審判的效率秘書長你滿意不滿意"},{"start":4131.024,"end":4131.844,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4149.591,"end":4163.846,"text":"在法院他處理這個過程一定要接受檢驗嘛一定要接受檢驗是那你剛剛說要努力嘛如何努力來跟大家說明一下當然在司法院方面啦我們會先是就是請法院要進士來"},{"start":4168.412,"end":4183.071,"text":"現在他以法官沒有幫他申請憲法法庭解釋為理由申請法官迴避我的問題很具體喔申請法官迴避依照刑事訴訟法18條第二款的規定要停止訴訟程序嗎"},{"start":4185.239,"end":4210.038,"text":"那這個這個就又變成涉及個案啦這不會涉及個案我現在是在請教你刑事訴訟法那個後面刑事廳的廳長上來協助好不好依照刑事訴訟法18條第2款申請法官迴避要停止訴訟程序嗎是不用嘛那我的問題來了為什麼他一申請迴避了以後高院的法官不開庭就改庭期可以這樣幹喔"},{"start":4213.311,"end":4241.594,"text":"像是刑事庭的法官連刑事訴訟法怎麼規定都忘了嗎?透過申請法官迴避來拖延訴訟程序不知道嗎?依照刑事訴訟法的規定要停止訴訟程序嗎?需要嗎?不需要他為什麼改庭期?他為什麼要拖延訴訟程序?這個是剛秘書長講的說這不對 要反省 要檢討 要盡速處理你們具體個案操作上就不是這樣嘛講空話"},{"start":4244.248,"end":4262.314,"text":"講空話最後那個主席不好意思再一分鐘就好我把今天最重要的問題麻煩最後一分鐘好最後一分鐘齁申請法官迴避的法定程序有因字型迴避嘛有申請迴避嘛請問我們色情的制度有一個迴避叫做施壓迴避嗎有嗎法官可以施壓另外一個法官之語就迴避嗎秘書長請回答"},{"start":4271.104,"end":4292.517,"text":"那當然不可以阿當然不可以阿如果要怎麼辦這個有些要涉及事實認定或政法沒有關係我今天在司法法制委員會公開具體檢舉喔這個驚人重犯中文字很了不起阿犯了大罪了以後到立法院裡面來請立委幫他修正交法要脫罪"},{"start":4294.265,"end":4310.351,"text":"結果被揭發了以後這個計謀沒有得逞結果他幹了什麼事情來在他審審要拖延訴訟程序一再申請法官迴避高院也駁回最高法院也駁回都確定了"},{"start":4311.591,"end":4336.322,"text":"結果我今天要檢舉的一個問題 行政庭的庭長可以去施壓陳審法官 要他上圈自請迴避嗎好 那個就一分鐘到了是不是因為我們後面還有很多委員好 秘書長 這案子我今天在這邊公開檢舉請司法院回去徹查 徹查以後的結果不用跟我講 跟社會大眾交代"},{"start":4337.495,"end":4338.876,"text":"謝謝黃委員我們現在請登記第二會的沈委員發言謝謝主席"},{"start":4359.4,"end":4376.991,"text":"首先請教吳秘書長委員好秘書長好我們的國民法官法從去年1月1號開始實施到現在已經超過一年,一年多了"},{"start":4378.41,"end":4388.28,"text":"那是不是能夠請秘書長說明一下這個國民黨法官法上路一年多由目前實施的概況他的狀況到底是怎麼樣簡單講一下做個簡單的評論就去年去年112年開始實施一共說了"},{"start":4397.662,"end":4417.153,"text":"一百零八件一百零八件那到目前到目前到這個省結了16件省結16件那到今年今年累計這樣一共有一百二十四件一百二十四件那這個根據這個"},{"start":4421.18,"end":4445.074,"text":"中正大學所做的調查到目前為止是認為滿意度有70%這是滿意度的部分那在這整個過程裡面那當然這個國民法官法實施它大概由我們對於這個我們整個司法系統來講是一個新的運作但是對一般國民來講它也是一個新的經驗一種新的義務"},{"start":4447.956,"end":4465.694,"text":"在這個實施的一年裡面有沒有這個民眾被選任為這個這個國民法官但是他因為沒有正當理由拒絕而被罰還了有沒有目前沒有目前沒有目前沒有好那這個在這個我們原本齁這個過去"},{"start":4469.59,"end":4493.042,"text":"這個我們本來評估大概我們開始實施國民法官法之後我們評估大概一年這個國民法官的相關案件會有300件對不對我們原本評估的300件那過去一年結果是只有108件為什麼為什麼他他會比預估的的狀況少是因為符合這個第5條的這案件少呢還是因為第6條的排除的案件多是什麼樣狀況"},{"start":4494.762,"end":4523.198,"text":"這其中有一部分是涉及檢察官他很慎重來面對整個制度所以也會影響他們起訴的那個那個節奏跟時間因為這個畢竟還是要檢察官起訴過來也就是說這個秘書長也意思說這個比預期少是因為這個我們這個新制上路之後檢察官在這個這個起訴上面比較保守"},{"start":4523.618,"end":4524.999,"text":"108件統計到今天為止?到今天124件,去年108件"},{"start":4547.898,"end":4565.747,"text":"在過去在這一百我們不要講到一百二十四件在過去一百去年的第一年度的一百零八件裡面我們在檢討我們司法院有沒有檢討說在這個國民法實施之後這一年裡面這裡面有什麼樣的問題需要改進的有沒有我們自己有沒有檢討"},{"start":4570.856,"end":4597.512,"text":"社會有檢討你們有沒有檢討我們都有評估委員會我知道我知道評估委員會的部分我等一下跟你溝通我現在是說我們自己司法院以這個秘書長你個人你對於這個實施的這一年你有什麼樣的評論因為這個加注我們民眾多元的意見之後會那有什麼樣的問題就是說讓有什麼需要檢討的部分"},{"start":4598.123,"end":4611.915,"text":"那我們當然齁這裡面一定有他的優缺點對我現在就要問說以以我不要講說你們這個什麼評估委員會的評估報告以這個秘書長你個人的的的做一個法律人你的了解"},{"start":4613.342,"end":4632.179,"text":"有什麼樣的缺點在實施這一年裡面有什麼樣的問題應該也因為這個件數畢竟還沒有那麼多嘛所以有時候他整個這樣子啦社會上大概都就是說在這一年實施之後再有幾個評論大家對這個國民法案法實施之後的問題有很多的檢討"},{"start":4639.705,"end":4662.158,"text":"主要的大概是兩個方向檢討一個就是說量刑方面的傾向由國民法官法下去參與刑事審判之後它的量刑上面它的傾向會有所改變"},{"start":4663.837,"end":4689.595,"text":"就是說因為國民他跟過去一般專業的法官他對於量刑的心理標準可能不同因此他在整個量刑心上面可能有所改變這是一般社會檢討的第一點第二點就是說在國民法官參與審判的過程裡面你這個辯護人的角色更加重要"},{"start":4690.714,"end":4714.494,"text":"那這個辯護人的角色一般的這個職業律師他當然是沒有問題但是你遇到這個公設辯護人或是約聘辯護人的時候他在這個國民審判法的案件裡面他的表現就就可能就就沒有符合大家認為說在這樣國民參審的過程裡面這個辯護人應該扮演的角色或是他的量能也不足啦這部分我們司法院有什麼樣的"},{"start":4716.088,"end":4731.121,"text":"改進跟檢討我們就是兩個問題在講而且盡快時間的關係這個量刑輕重因為有時候也涉及個案他一定都涉及當然每一個都涉及個案我今天是說"},{"start":4732.162,"end":4754.919,"text":"因為這個是這個是社會上面大家的看法因為國民參審的一般國民他的他的他的對於這個法感情上面他在量情上面他的傾向跟過去這個簡單的統計就可以看出來他跟過去的這個這個法官量情的的這個傾向整個有所改變這部分我們司法院有什麼樣的在這過經過一年之後有什麼樣的的因應之道"},{"start":4755.748,"end":4777.526,"text":"我們會提供一些參考的一些良性的因素因子來盡量的提供一些新的 怎麼樣提供 具體講怎麼樣提供就是我們會盡量透過現在AI的輔助系統來盡量收集相關的有關類型的一些良性的那個型度來"},{"start":4779.247,"end":4805.279,"text":"提供給提供給國民法官參考參考過過去類似的案件他的量刑的統計讓他們在量刑上面不會有有有有有過度的的形象是是是我就參考那另外就是說在辯護人那個能量這個具體這個具體好你們你們現在目前有這樣做嗎現在在已經有已經有提供給從什麼時候開始提供了就是"},{"start":4806.059,"end":4824.356,"text":"都先前都有提供了從第一個案件開始就有提供那所以這不是改善啊就你們過去有提供的狀況還是這樣子所以這怎麼會是改善的方法呢那當然之前提供的有些資料可能沒有那麼我們會再更完整更新這樣"},{"start":4828.118,"end":4842.383,"text":"這個秘書長你講這個很抽象啦很抽象什麼更完整更新你過去從第一個案子開始你們就有提供這個國民法官這些相關的資料到現在經過一年之後大家認為有這樣的問題之後你們有什麼改善之道你說我還是提供資料"},{"start":4843.884,"end":4870.422,"text":"這個蠻奇怪的我們會盡量來提供這方面的那個參考的案例那這個辯護量能不足的部分你們有什麼樣的改善之道就是說我們跟法湖基金會那個請他們那一邊要專門的那個法湖的律師來來處理這方面的案件那另外在不是不是不是這個秘書長你有沒有需要需要協助啊"},{"start":4872.219,"end":4893.956,"text":"有沒有需要協助我們那個刑事廳他對國民法官這一部分那廳長對這一部分也有很深入的理聽長我剛剛所提的問題你能不能有關這個辯護量能的部分現在委員的詢詢剛剛委員提到了民間所反映的兩個問題第一個是辯護量能不足的問題跟量刑傾向變動的問題"},{"start":4895.237,"end":4895.377,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4913.527,"end":4916.729,"text":"11個約聘辯護人的公開申選原本的報名時間是到2月15號截止"},{"start":4938.386,"end":4965.328,"text":"那現在又延到3月6號為什麼延我們延的原因是因為剛好在2月期間不是因為剛在2月期間剛好是過年那段時間大概有一兩個禮拜的時間那有相關律師想報名的可能他的相關資料就準備不足所以我們把評估之後可能把它延到3月6號那到目前報名的人數還沒有完全確定目前還沒有完全確定目前知道已經有11位有報名了我們要錄取11位只有11位報名"},{"start":4966.738,"end":4968.178,"text":"春節期間又不是突然發生休假的狀況"},{"start":4984.434,"end":5012.051,"text":"那不是突然本來沒有要休假結果現在變休假這個部分我們也在我們的相關的一些薪資薪資集聚部分我們也適當的調高薪資那讓約聘這個約聘辯護人他第一個他只是我們剛剛所講辯護量能不足之其中之一端我們這是輔助性的真正的辯護應該還是回歸到律師市場或者是法輔基金會的就我們所知道的"},{"start":5012.831,"end":5018.834,"text":"法律輔助基金會現在成立的刑事辯護中心這個我最後再請問一下這個有關這個我們擔任國民法官這個的國民目前這個有大家過去原本就有這樣的評估那確實也有發生這樣的狀況就是在這個對他們的擔任國民法官的國民之後他的這些心理狀況的影響"},{"start":5040.014,"end":5066.829,"text":"有提供心理的輔導我知道有的地方法院有提供但你們現在有全部的地方法院都有提供相關的心理方面輔導嗎那有關於這部分我們提供完整的心理方面輔導就在審前之前我們做心理健康的測驗這每一個分院都有每個分院都有那這個最後這個剛剛有提到這個成效評估一年要成效評估現在已經超過一年了我們成效評估要什麼時候出來"},{"start":5067.72,"end":5071.907,"text":"我們報告預計從3月份從一般的認知報告已經先出來了那預計在9月份9月"},{"start":5074.912,"end":5082.197,"text":"我們3月份會陸續有幾個那成效評估的結案報告會出來最終在9月份會把整年度的結案報告會出來以上"},{"start":5104.972,"end":5130.274,"text":"那最終在9月份全部會出來以上這個部分齁我還有很多問題要請教啦齁那這個部分我們我看未來我們還有機會我們在會後我再來請教我們李廳長啦齁這個部分我們最主要是這個國民我們這個畢竟是國家新實施的一個制度實施一年之後這個評估到特別重要啦因為他就是未來他過去我們未來會看到的問題在過去一年大概就呈現了"},{"start":5131.735,"end":5156.252,"text":"那這個部分我希望說我們司法院這邊能夠更用心的來針對這些審判那我們請登記第三位的莊委員發言謝謝 謝謝趙委員還有我們司法院列席的官員我想我接續來請教一下秘書長秘書長其實我看司法法制委員會一般人都不太喜歡進來"},{"start":5158.097,"end":5170.553,"text":"很冷門啊 為什麼很冷門 大家充滿無力感這個社會啊 我們這個社會啊 對這個司法的一個滿意度啊你很清楚嗎 你滿意嗎"},{"start":5173.466,"end":5180.672,"text":"根據中正大學的調查滿意度都不高我從86年開始職業後來就誤入歧途到了政壇司法的內幕風氣是怎麼樣幾十年來的改變"},{"start":5191.321,"end":5211.472,"text":"過去怎麼樣我怎麼會不清楚但只是說你說他有沒有進步他當然是有進步但是你有進步你相對的憲法賦予我們的司法人員尤其司法官這樣的一個終身的一個保障人民當然對你司法官這個整個審判制度你必須要有所期待嘛人家有跟你要求這是很合理的啊這很合理的所以我每個人我現在司法法座我都很不好意思不是不是"},{"start":5217.97,"end":5236.756,"text":"我講的比較大聲 自己罵自己罵得瘋了你知道嗎無濟於事啊 比較自己罵罵你們不會改進啊很怕把你們罵一罵 又要對你們一個打擊以後你們這個信心本來 老百姓就對你們這個期待那個期待就沒有那麼高了那個信心就那麼脆弱了再把你們這樣 把你們"},{"start":5243.288,"end":5259.238,"text":"這我實在有一點從86年開始執業我都有一點捨不得了但是我會覺得我們司法界這樣辜負老百姓的一個期待真的辜負老百姓的期待我今天要就幾個問題來請教就是說我看個案的問題"},{"start":5261.394,"end":5280.541,"text":"就我就不談了可是呢你從個案裡面你可以看出一些問題啊你像譬如說啊我們去看到最近啊就這些網紅的啊自導自演的你像譬如說我們的國人在柬埔寨啊去自導自演啊這是深入楷博園區然後說我們遭追捕毆打然後失聯啊"},{"start":5284.085,"end":5295.418,"text":"這個政府在那邊警察在那邊把他識破去把他給判刑啦那判刑之後 現在人家兩天就把他破案之後換成三天就把他拋下來了你知道嗎"},{"start":5297.463,"end":5315.417,"text":"行滿以後才可以驅逐出境這個是柬埔寨當然它這個是法制比較看起來是很落後的一個地方可是相對你說我們這個是一個民主法制的國家我們是一個進步的一個國家新加坡的網紅這句造假他說招這個旦夕然後這個我們台灣的網紅網安小雞"},{"start":5320.543,"end":5321.884,"text":"上位概念大家談的就是國家法益"},{"start":5350.017,"end":5367.049,"text":"是不是 你說柬埔寨他一定跟你說講的是國家法議啊 ㄟ 一樣的東西啊這種威權國家認為說 你都給我胡說八道 傷害我整個柬埔寨的國家的一個形象而且台灣就認為 那些小事 社會秩序維護而已 發落了發落了發落了 趕快那你有沒有什麼感觸 沒有 像這種很難去規範"},{"start":5375.748,"end":5385.797,"text":"其實我們在整個社會秩序維護法裡面他很多侵害那個法律裡面在立法院我們不敢把他無限上綱之後侵害到國家法律啊不敢啦不敢啦可是相對的你會不會覺得說對整個我們所有現行的很多的一個社會上引起這麼多紛擾的案件會不會過輕有沒有這樣的問題"},{"start":5402.984,"end":5429.813,"text":"所以我們法官也應該要傾聽各界的聲音社會民眾的意見我們都要傾聽法官是人法官也有七情六慾法官不是神那既然憲法賦予你這麼好的一個保障的時候法官有的認為說我只要不貪汙我只要不收錢的話我最大"},{"start":5431.585,"end":5456.466,"text":"這個也不對這也不對我自己去執業我反而會覺得我這輩子最大給我的最好的一個勳章是我去把那個臺北市政府前面那個警符門那個我去把那個黨魁把他給幹掉檢察官馬上把我起訴了把我起訴的檢察官現在都升官了位居高官了"},{"start":5459.795,"end":5480.725,"text":"可是對我來講我會覺得說這個是意識形態的不同我對堅持一個法律人的價值我會認為我做的是對的哪有你圖上去一個市政府把他圖上去一個黨會三天說是叫做骨雞我就去把你幹掉你是對我精神上的凌虐會被起訴法院判我無罪"},{"start":5482.331,"end":5493.441,"text":"這附帶一提啦我的意思是說法官他也有他個人的一個評價但問題就是說碰到整個法官對個案在審判的時候常常啊加入太多個人的主觀的一個看法你像比如說我剛那個案子我會認為說三天我怎麼會一般民眾的想法就是說古蹟古蹟沒想到也要死五十年了吃八年了那叫做古蹟"},{"start":5511.51,"end":5517.071,"text":"那像譬如說我舉個例子啊前陣子發生我不要講立法院是誰啦我們一個民事案件啊雙方互控提起民事訴訟一審啦就是甲方敗訴啦就算立法院這個敗訴啦二審的逆轉"},{"start":5539.738,"end":5567.677,"text":"一審的法官其實我就去把他看那個判決那個判決就真的很好玩其實他都有去論述他的一個道理但是後來話捨天竺判決理由裡面就講一個人永遠活在別人的認可之下是莫大的悲哀他者言論是天堂或地獄都在人當下吐納一念之間願所有因他者言論所苦者名聲一念之名離苦得樂"},{"start":5569.798,"end":5570.319,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5574.52,"end":5602.802,"text":"因為按照我們法官倫理規範法官應該要中間中性應該要中性應該就是說要沒有色彩這哪怕一個判決理由裡面的你的理由交代的多鏗鏘有力光出現這種畫蛇天竺社會討論的又全部回歸到這句話你這個判決公不公正到底有沒有理由人家不想看人家說你這個法官怎麼這樣"},{"start":5604.652,"end":5615.317,"text":"這你們司法院家你們要特別喔要好好的去告誡不要說告誡你自己要有法官要有一個行為的規範該怎麼審判怎麼會不知道呢你現在動作你是刑你現在動作你現在站在那個審判庭裡面法判簽了你現在可以在那好像愛怎麼愛怎麼講愛怎麼加入自己的意見就可以那個時候他是代表國家欸阿不然他就說你幾年你幾年人跟人可以講幾年喔"},{"start":5635.182,"end":5647.234,"text":"我們可以去跟選民講說 欸你幾年 你幾年 你幾年喔 天啊 跟老爺的事你法官在判的時候 你也不叫法官 你這代表國家 賦予你這個公權力 那你在那邊胡說八道 這也不對我看那個越怪的判決 我越喜歡看"},{"start":5652.367,"end":5668.699,"text":"越不符合社會期待的他敢這樣判其實理由都講的論述的很充分只是到最後那個判決結果邏輯推演到就剛好跟法國民的法律感情剛好產生衝突可是這個不是這個叫化死而天竺你要避免啦秘書長這不行啦這不行啦你去看2022年世界我們我看這個瑞士洛杉磯管理學院IMD我們司法的公正性我們是不斷進步欸"},{"start":5681.101,"end":5681.642,"text":"臺灣民眾對法官對司法的公正性的滿意度30幾%"},{"start":5697.071,"end":5713.897,"text":"三十幾趴你說立法院想喜歡罵你立法院根本就管不到你們除了預算以外其他很難去監督到你們可是重點是說你司法身為一個法律人司法界你這個整個司法受民眾的一個信賴領人民的高薪 俸祿"},{"start":5721.885,"end":5737.75,"text":"達成人民對基本司法的一個信賴這是卑微的要求啊我最近看到你們那個臺南那個法官那個院長退休他去提提到啊說整個啊現在案件的審不完"},{"start":5742.841,"end":5747.905,"text":"有很多人來我們合作說我們的案件怎麼那麼慢?是法官把我們折騰了嗎?檢察官把我們折騰了嗎?我們就要好好解釋,歡迎大家的大家的案件沒辦法慢慢的審,慢慢的審一定會審到你的可是我們這個法官案量,或者檢察官案量這麼大我看那個院長當時講說,不然檢查中偵查當中的案件,一副調解"},{"start":5770.629,"end":5774.593,"text":"看能不能這樣救救法官,救救檢察官,也讓他們這樣,案量就沒辦法降低。我們的卡邨現在又差多少,差多少,如果在你的認知裡面。"},{"start":5783.703,"end":5812.839,"text":"所以這個就是說那個那個結案的如何符合民眾的那個需求就是說還是要還是要在適當時間就要結果可是我們一直在補人一直在補人補到最後你從院長退下來都跟你說這個到最後什麼詐欺案件這種案件的一個增加都會變成壓垮司法人員最後的一根稻草"},{"start":5813.715,"end":5817.736,"text":"徵查中一副調節也不太對我如果檢察官你又非告訴哪一份案件叫我全部都一副調節我要再刑事案件我還是要繼續偵查"},{"start":5842.931,"end":5854.376,"text":"這檢察官又沒有什麼誘因?那院長講的跟檢察官的心態就不一定對囉?你怎麼調解?我看你只司法院到法務部那裡你就好好去你好好做一個調解的阿光有人喊沒有人解決?你會看完 我要問你會看完"},{"start":5864.244,"end":5892.478,"text":"因為當然這個效率是蠻重要的啦是很重要那一方面這個確實近年來那個案件確實也急速增加很多啦那個量那個案件量確實也很多啦是啦案件多案件多你也要有一個想法案件多會越來越多啊會越來越多啊詐欺案件一定越來越多啊"},{"start":5893.686,"end":5906.656,"text":"洗錢的也越來越多啊我們立法院的立法都已經接近民粹了在我看來都已經接近民粹了一直在增加一直在增加罪行一直在加重"},{"start":5908.118,"end":5918.224,"text":"這已經顛覆法律人員：司法人員的邏輯了啦過去我們在看最重的 齁 最重的國家法益 現在在國家法益 絕當 齁 再來 欸 搞不好那是人身法益 搞不好那是財產法益 以前那是算誰嫁的 你知不知道 現在都當病了 都當病了"},{"start":5928.263,"end":5931.428,"text":"我那個罪騙人家錢那個很嚴重連續一份這個也一罪一罰再來加重我們一直在加重可是我們全部都沒有解決事情"},{"start":5945.302,"end":5958.127,"text":"毒品的一直加重,販賣一直加重一直加重我以前在做律師的時候,去法院的時候我去裡面看的時候,我問過典獄長你現在關在這裡,毒品犯罪的多少?17%我做立法會第8屆第9屆第10屆,現在第11屆我去裡面問問你現在關在這裡的販毒的多少?52%"},{"start":5973.837,"end":5990.482,"text":"我們這個立法院亂搞嘛你們也不敢講話嘛然後大家都提出來的法案全部都是民粹嘛根本就不是為這個國家為這個社會在建立一個制度在解決事情啊你們跟我們這個好犀利啊你們叫做法律專家欸立法院的專家比你們少少多了你們也不敢提出你們的看法"},{"start":6000.794,"end":6025.235,"text":"要有態度啦 要有態度啦 因為時間的問題接下來我們要很多的機會 大家可以互相來討論我很不愛問人的啦 也很不愛罵人的啦 罵人就沒意思了罵人就跟你罵到五年了 公信你都已經在嫁了 媽媽還在你司法公信你 把你摧毀但是有時候真的讓人生氣 你們不改進也不行啦 好不好 這真的要加油啦"},{"start":6026.056,"end":6026.877,"text":"邀請登記第4位羅委員發言"},{"start":6057.25,"end":6078.544,"text":"主席還有我們吳秘書長我想要根據那個黃國昌委員他剛剛的質詢的內容我要再度確認一件事情請問司法院支持制定防害司法公正罪懲治關說司法嗎"},{"start":6081.072,"end":6084.376,"text":"吳秘書長,司法院支持懲治關說司法的行為嗎?"},{"start":6101.345,"end":6114.24,"text":"我是傾向應該是可以往這個方向來你傾向你今天代表誰出來答詢的就傾向是可以往這個方向來你就是司法院的代表坐在這個地方你沒有個人立場"},{"start":6115.492,"end":6136.79,"text":"你只有司法院的立場我再問你一次你認為關說司法是不是應該要懲治那這個是不容許嘛不容許那不需要立法來懲治那有需要立法來刻以刑事責任那就要刻了所以你支持立法刻以刑事責任嘛"},{"start":6137.722,"end":6139.283,"text":"法官關說法官有沒有罪有沒有刑事責任"},{"start":6161.788,"end":6182.003,"text":"不要再拿個案推脫我再問你齁邱泰山我們陸委會主委在擔任國安會諮詢委員期間也涉及關說司法為什麼他可以全身而退為什麼我告訴你為什麼因為我們現在沒有關說司法罪啊關說司法無罪啊"},{"start":6183.22,"end":6192.673,"text":"不是嗎那請問你關說司法到底該不該成為一個刑事責任的一個法律構成刑事責任"},{"start":6194.899,"end":6215.084,"text":"社會在變遷有需要當然就要過程這跟社會變遷什麼關係?你什麼時候當法官的?你哪一年開始當法官的?在民國72年那請問民國72年的時候你就認同當時社會狀態是容許關說司法嗎?社會一直在變遷以目前的屬空環境好我再問您您知道"},{"start":6218.013,"end":6246.062,"text":"過去去年您跟行政院法務部一起召開司法改革重點成效記者會當時許中立院長說民眾對於司法改革已經由不信任轉為信任不滿意轉為滿意司法改革已經獲得多數民眾的認同你認同我們許院長說的這句話嗎司法改革已經獲得多數民眾的認同了嗎"},{"start":6248.007,"end":6273.358,"text":"那這個因為各種民意調查它不同的取樣你也知道民意調查站在這句話的對立面嘛同年度民間團體臺灣公民人權聯盟所做的調查四成八的民眾不滿意司法改革五成五認為臺灣司法不公正五成二不滿意法官的表現去年中正大學犯罪研究中心做的民調"},{"start":6274.398,"end":6293.053,"text":"對於法官可公正公平審理與判決時事案件只有3乘2的民眾正面肯定而今年中正大學民調也只有3乘3的正面肯定看起來人民的意見跟許中立院長的是我感覺良好差別蠻大的吧"},{"start":6294.406,"end":6323.294,"text":"所以這些民調都不準啦因為不同的民調不同的調查方式都不準啦沒有關係我就跟你講一個根本的問題嘛現在我們司法院你可以自我感覺良好覺得司法改革有成績人民對於司法改革已經很認同可是呢事實上法官的信任度在歷次這些民間的調查當中都遠遠落後檢察官跟警察你不覺得"},{"start":6324.696,"end":6342.107,"text":"司法院有責任去讓人民更加認同司法嗎有沒有這個責任那我告訴你為什麼大家對司法這麼的不滿意司改會議提出了哪些司法改革"},{"start":6343.413,"end":6368.15,"text":"制定公義階幣者保護法堅實並提升第一審審判品質設立司法科學委員會提升鑑定品質制定調解基本法建立獨立之刑事冤案特別救濟制度強化冤案受害人之名譽回復及社會復歸請問這些改革法案進展如何"},{"start":6369.369,"end":6398.236,"text":"因為有些是屬於因為在司法院跟法務部之間有一個分工又要推給法務部了又要推給法務部了嗎我告訴你最關鍵的原因就是請問到現在關說司法都無罪人民憑什麼相信司法我只問今天我們秘書長你也當過法官你有聽過一句話以前叫有錢判生無錢判死嗎有沒有聽過"},{"start":6400.578,"end":6427.427,"text":"有沒有聽過這句話我告訴你如果涉及金錢就有所謂的收受不正利跟賄賂的問題啦所以這部分是有罪啦所以我告訴你現在不是有錢判生無錢判死現在叫有權判生無權判死為什麼我想請問你一般生走小民"},{"start":6428.723,"end":6451.954,"text":"有能力關說司法嗎?請問有能力關說司法都是哪些人?你告訴我過去的例子相規的案子是誰去關說司法?是法官去關說司法今天我們看到的行政首長邱泰山當過法務部長"},{"start":6453.968,"end":6465.056,"text":"他卸任之後也去關說司法包括本院的我們柯建民委員也能夠有能力關說司法請問這三個關說司法的拍樣現在有沒有罪報告我拜託喔秘書長有罪沒罪齁就是有跟沒有啦沒有個案問題啦現在有沒有妨礙司法公認罪嘛連這個都答不出來"},{"start":6481.696,"end":6483.137,"text":"司法院人證都答不出來嗎?"},{"start":6483.137,"end":6484.318,"text":"不至於吧?"},{"start":6484.318,"end":6498.847,"text":"有沒有嘛?那該修法就要修法現在就是沒有啊 該修法就修法 你喊多少年?請問 妨害司法公正罪有沒有列入你們自己講的司法改革國事會議的決議 有沒有?"},{"start":6498.847,"end":6500.968,"text":"有沒有?我告訴你有啦 有啦八年了啦 七年了啦"},{"start":6511.427,"end":6524.256,"text":"說不改就是不改啦那你還要牽托說這些民意調查因為調查方法所以不準嗎你過這一下我就沒辦法相信司法啊你不是鼓勵有權的人去關說司法嗎"},{"start":6532.486,"end":6543.791,"text":"那你推給法務部是不是法務部的業務啊?是不是?我知道你要推給法務部啦那我就跟秘書長報告啊關說司法被關說的主體是誰?被關說的關說者是誰?被關說者是誰?被關說者是法官欸法官是誰的院下?是法務部院下嗎?還是司法院院下?"},{"start":6562.678,"end":6587.8,"text":"捍衛法官公平公正審判請問是法務部的責任還是你司法院的責任啊還是兩個都有責任啊這個在制定法規修法面這個法務部跟司法院之間有一個分別我告訴你法務部要做司法院也要做啦你認不認同法官欸請問法官是法務部管的啊"},{"start":6590.253,"end":6616.423,"text":"法官是今天是緣而編制在法務部嗎我跟秘書長報告你真的不能怪人民不相信司法你光從整個答詢過程當中我就沒有看到司法院積極捍衛法官獨立審案拒絕關說創造公平審判法制的決制阿我再講一個簡單的事情阿你們今天提的立法計畫表裡面"},{"start":6617.526,"end":6631.469,"text":"有妨礙司法公正罪嗎?沒有啊,因為是法務部的事嘛,對不對?因為是法務部的事嘛,不是你司法院的事嘛,不是嗎?人民聽不懂啦,聽不懂啦,為什麼叫法務部的事?"},{"start":6639.051,"end":6665.406,"text":"那所以你在指責法務部修法太多你都認為要制定你都認為你曾經當過法官你都認為今天關說司法應該有刑事責任你剛剛答詢是這個意思吧沒錯吧謝謝嘛那你就是在這邊你也是公然告訴大家法務部待職無能啊到現在為止多少年了沒有關說司法無罪在台灣不是一個天大的笑話"},{"start":6667.247,"end":6670.07,"text":"我再請教一下我們的秘書長請問從你法院的實務來看沒有密錄器這件事情在證據上會產生什麼結果?警察執法沒有開密錄器會產生什麼結果?"},{"start":6688.203,"end":6708.593,"text":"關於這些政績能力的問題他個案又在個案嘛我來跟你講啦去年臺北市萬華分局移送一位鄧姓女子說她違反社會秩序維護法無故持有電擊棒最後法院裁定不罰你知道法院的理由是什麼嗎地方法院臺北地方法院裁定不罰理由是什麼嗎你當然不知道我告訴你"},{"start":6713.854,"end":6741.331,"text":"因為地方法院兩度要求警方拿出秘錄器警方都交不出來於是地方法院重批這個收證不力不注意自身執行職務安全的粗糙移送不是文明法治社會執法機關應有的態度所以介於憲法的法治國原則法院難以認同所以判決不法你覺得我們地方法院這樣的一個判決有沒有理據"},{"start":6746.603,"end":6772.533,"text":"你從頭到尾都個案啦你也不關心法治環境怎麼健全啦所有的法治環境都是個案堆積起來的啊當你每個個案今天該辦不辦該規範不規範就變成今天所有民調顯示不相信司法的原因啊我做一個很簡單的結論連地方法院都知道沒開密錄器對證據力的影響是什麼"},{"start":6773.903,"end":6791.016,"text":"這當然跟你沒關係我先強調海巡署管碧玲委員海巡海委會管碧玲主委他竟然可以讓海巡在執法的時候沒有錄影這叫限執法人人於不義"},{"start":6793.342,"end":6810.735,"text":"如果在法院的實務裁判上你會讓今天不但我們的警方執法人員的執法無效化你甚至前面黃國昌委員不是有講到用GPS修正罪還變成法案秘密罪這叫限執法人員不義啊"},{"start":6815,"end":6840.951,"text":"所以最後的結論很簡單我真的拜託我們司法院可以積極一點不要都推給法務部啦尤其關說司法罪明明就是兩個單位都有責任的事情你推我推你一推幾十年才會造成今天對司法信任度低落的一個最重要的元兇就是執法單位就是相關主管機關的怠惰跟不負責任以上謝謝羅委員"},{"start":6845.297,"end":6867.489,"text":"我們現在請登記第5位的林委員發言謝謝主席秘書長我先跟您就教我們少年事件處理法的問題因為新北市的校園割井案所以司法院在2月19號召開了一起來體檢少年事件處理法"},{"start":6868.59,"end":6887.149,"text":"那雖然司法院邀請許多民間團體還有教授但整場座團會的結果被民間單位批評根本就是摸頭大會現場司法院也都沒有針對問題做出任何具體的回覆也因此包含國教行動聯盟"},{"start":6888.59,"end":6902.536,"text":"以及還想陪你長大聯盟都一同召開記者會．並再次呼籲司法應該要召集跨院協商會議正視相關的訴求並提出具體的改善回應"},{"start":6903.752,"end":6927.877,"text":"那我看到司法院在被批評後那最近也又對外表示除已經就19日當天各方的建言那陸續回信或回電外以洽商行政院安排兩院政策協商平台會議的這樣的一個事宜那我個人是認為司法院你這樣的一個回覆"},{"start":6929.173,"end":6933.475,"text":"司法院要與行政院共同規劃政策協商平台會議,為何需要成立平台?"},{"start":6946.261,"end":6970.535,"text":"成立這樣的一個平台真的是有效率更有效率更有效益嗎很簡單的來說啊這個這種事情不就是司法院要跟其他單位一起就民間的需求反應以及現在存在的問題內部彼此直接面對面競速開會討論然後直接提出解決問題的方法就可以"},{"start":6971.095,"end":6996.184,"text":"到底成立這個協商平台會議具有怎樣的功能包括哪些政府單位是否也包含民間團體要如何的運作這樣的平台會議是由司法院來做主責運作還是由行政院平台會議的時程又會是在什麼時候請秘書長來做一個回答"},{"start":6997.024,"end":7020.35,"text":"像委員說明這些我們邵家廳都在那個2月19號那個那個會議做談會之後就有我們邵家廳有陸續跟行政院有關教育部內政部因為有些必須要兩院之間要互相配合這一部分我請我們邵家廳長對 廳長回答"},{"start":7025.106,"end":7042.422,"text":"謝謝委員關注這樣的一個問題那跟委員報告就是從108年的少年身體處理法的修法那當時其實就是為了要這個根本解決每一個少年其實他在成長需要家庭的功能的親子教育的這些資源跟"},{"start":7042.962,"end":7067.26,"text":"在校園的就教權還有包括少年的就業權所以在少司法108年修正的時候我們就透過少司法86條的第3項就有要求要訂一個少年事件跟這個行政機關的一個就是聯繫辦法所以從100這個就是10年開始我們已經連續3年每年至少一次跟行政院"},{"start":7068,"end":7084.788,"text":"由政務委員：司法院秘書長主持共同召開兩院政治協商平台因為他少年成長從他的一個就學權比如說國民基本的義務教育那教育部的主責事項還有衛福部"},{"start":7085.408,"end":7087.79,"text":"而同福利與權益福利保障法"},{"start":7101.318,"end":7117.144,"text":"110年108年修法之後修法就開始做嗎?是但是我們看到你這個協商平台會議到目前為止真的會有更有效率更有效益來處理我們少年事件的犯罪的問題嗎?是的看到它的成效有比較好嗎?"},{"start":7118.725,"end":7144.205,"text":"這個部分相關資料我們會後可以提供給這個就是委員來做一個參考的確每一年呢大家行政院跟本院都有提出提案那每一個提案呢都有具體做成你具體再把你的這個成效具體用書面答覆我啦因為時間的關係其實我是想要了解這樣一個平台會議它是否確實能夠解決少年事情的處理和保護制度的問題"},{"start":7145.806,"end":7171.596,"text":"還是說又是另外一個形式 開座談會 雙方平台會談一談那最後就一個空中樓閣少年這個平台會呢 它其實中央是行政院跟司法院你用書面回答我啦 因為時間的關係那我再問你對於民間團體提到的少年犯罪的徒消制度司法院的立場跟看法是如何"},{"start":7172.836,"end":7185.135,"text":"跟委員報告,其實少司法的這個徒銷制度呢,它其實在民國86年當時大概就是受到兒童權利公約的影響那從這個我們103年已經把兒童權利公約內過法化了"},{"start":7187.799,"end":7210.291,"text":"那在兒權公務員的第16條還有第10號意見書還有20號意見書大概都有強調必須要去維護兒童的隱私權包含未滿18歲以下的這些處罰跟曝險的少年所以您的看法還是跟就是一直維持跟過去的跟委員報告我們可以去檢討就是有沒有一些制度因為我們有最近有參考"},{"start":7211.091,"end":7211.111,"text":"﹚委員﹚"},{"start":7230.72,"end":7251.071,"text":"那在世界的各國大概也都是要維護這些少年的一個前案的一個隱私那為了他們的一個復歸社會這個我了解啦但是因為目前發生這麼多少年的重大犯罪事件所以未來有沒有可能就是有一些特別的一個規定去對於這些重大犯罪的少年"},{"start":7252.532,"end":7258.258,"text":"我們會去審慎謹慎的嚴肅的看待但是我們如果說要處理這個部分可能就要回頭去檢視當時我們把兒權公約全國全面的內國法化之後這些也都是法律"},{"start":7274.252,"end":7295.903,"text":"這個法律跟法律之間其實也必須要去做一個調整我想就是說你們還是要做檢討因為民間團體有這樣的一個聲浪我們已經在檢討當中我想這個很快又要開學了但是在過去3個月我們看到就是司法院還是一樣大敗百事的舉行個座談會"},{"start":7297.003,"end":7297.383,"text":"司法院秘書長列席"},{"start":7315.27,"end":7315.59,"text":"施法院責無旁貸"},{"start":7342.799,"end":7366.134,"text":"好接下來我再請問一下炸妻犯引渡回台未遭羈押的未遭羈押齁以及詐騙的刑責齁台灣直播主晚安小雞齁我想他在柬埔寨的詐騙園區直播的這個案子呢那後來他們受到這個當地的法院裁定犯下煽動製造社會動亂罪判處兩年有期徒刑另外每人罰款400萬那個減幣啦齁"},{"start":7369.016,"end":7393.825,"text":"那不少民眾都對判決結果感到大快人心還有人要求從重良刑但是也有律師表示說這樣毫無節制的刑法真的很可怕所以我想請問秘書長您認為這樣的判決是毫無節制很可怕嗎因為這個現在要救任何人民要救者的話"},{"start":7395.936,"end":7415.554,"text":"應該要有一套程序,正當的程序這我們都了解,其實我要告訴您的就是我們現在詐欺犯罪,我們已經變成詐騙王國了詐欺犯罪在院檢,大部分都是詐欺犯罪了,如何的惡主詐欺犯罪"},{"start":7416.495,"end":7443.77,"text":"當然這個源頭的二組很重要但是我覺得司法院在判決這一端可能我們也要去研擬是不是也可以來做適當的組決所以速審速決重重量刑這件事情司法院似乎可以做的就是說我們看到說那個國外人家政府在可以速審速決而且很快的就量刑確定判決確定這個刑度也不輕"},{"start":7445.231,"end":7456.657,"text":"但是我們司法院有沒有去這個未來就是檢討改進我們是不是也要御請我們的法官對於這個詐欺犯罪恕審恕結還要拖久啊然後又判很輕啊"},{"start":7460.967,"end":7472.671,"text":"委員長您贊成嗎?您是不是未來可以在政治方面做這樣的檢討改進?因為我們法官也應該要來傾聽社會各界的聲音因為現在確實詐欺犯太多了"},{"start":7475.672,"end":7493.962,"text":"所以我才會說是不是我們看到人家國外速審速捷啊崇重良心啊大快人心啊所以我們未來我們司法院是不是也可以把這樣的案例作為參考要求我們的法院的法官遇到這種案件速審速捷嘛"},{"start":7495.348,"end":7522.069,"text":"趕快就判了嘛快很準嘛你不要拖啦拖太久大家都感覺無感那些詐欺犯他們完全無感而且有時候判很輕啊判太輕了他們就重啟爐灶出來又是一條好漢了沒有人這個是不是可以往這個方向來著手就是我們法院判決這一端我覺得這樣才可以有效遏阻我們的詐欺犯罪"},{"start":7523.531,"end":7550.805,"text":"委員你剛剛這些提示都很重要我會朝這方面來努力我想我們最近又看到一個案例就是因為電信詐騙的詐騙犯他遭波蘭拘留6年的一個流行男子今年初被引渡回國受審後卻沒有受到羈押由法院裁定限制住居放他自由"},{"start":7551.885,"end":7557.471,"text":"所以我們警察有員警就表示這些回國繼續行騙的犯人為打不死的小強"},{"start":7559.113,"end":7581.044,"text":"民間肯定警察的辛勞的同時但卻有這樣不少詐騙犯送到院檢後僅僅以數萬元就可以交保然後又繼續在外繼續找下一個受害者行騙這樣的情勢其實在我們現在看到不管是檢方院方層出不窮詐欺犯移送到院檢"},{"start":7582.619,"end":7582.919,"text":"司法院立場看法如何?"},{"start":7608.015,"end":7628.733,"text":"委員長你簡單回答因為有些個案因為畢竟有時候他犯罪在國外那涉及到一些政績的收集那一些像這種有時候是相對性的因為在當事人他有他的人權那涉及到也要有證據"},{"start":7630.054,"end":7655.872,"text":"那有些個案他可能在國外他在政績方面那一部分會涉及到政績的問題有些個案他會你知道我知道是個案但是就是草草的給他交保你覺得這樣子是不是我們在整個對於這些詐欺犯的這個懲處方面會讓警察感到寒心他們抓得很辛苦結果到院長就給他交保"},{"start":7656.773,"end":7682.579,"text":"所以這個是也是我是認為也是未來我們司法院要預請我們不管是檢察官或者我們的法官對這種案件真的要慎重的處理對這種個案不要你證據方面我覺得我們可以透過這個這個羈押的制度讓這些人不要存有僥倖的心理你這樣太快放他出來也不能他無感"},{"start":7683.783,"end":7684.624,"text":"請登記中委員發言"},{"start":7701.858,"end":7728.022,"text":"主席、在場委員、先進、列席的政務機關事務官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生那我想呢今天就來就教於我們秘書長吳秘書長吳秘書長這個4年前本席就在這個會議室我們非常欣慰的通過了國民法官法你知道那個司法改革是蔡英文總統這8年任期一個重要的承諾也是重要的政績那請問國民法官法開始實施幾年了"},{"start":7730.178,"end":7745.069,"text":"從去年但是我們在4年年通過之後是不是有將近3年的時間可以準備那你覺得準備時間充不充足那這些都在預估的範圍內那你對去年一整年的執行下來的成效你覺得如何"},{"start":7745.734,"end":7774.105,"text":"就根據中生大學他調查就你對這麥公聲音大一點好嗎?謝謝根據中生大學他最近的一份調查是滿一度有到70%但是我事實上我看到坊間的其他媒體的報導大概有指出幾個問題首先有人強烈的質疑實施國民法官法的審理案件就是國法案有明顯的簡便好像不對等就是實力差很多你同意這樣的看法嗎?"},{"start":7776.269,"end":7778.232,"text":"檢察官的準備比較充足而律師相對的準備不夠"},{"start":7791.131,"end":7814.42,"text":"檢察官他這邊人力他是相對是充足人力檢察官人力充足還有另外就是第二個有人說在前三年的準備期我們司法院跟第一線實務呢辦了很多的講習但是普遍的審檢的參與比較高律師們很少參加你這是不是原因之一就律師他們比較沒有時間去參加這三年的關於國民法官法的運作的實務的講習有沒有這個情況"},{"start":7816.121,"end":7842.139,"text":"那因為畢竟律師他一般都自由業然後他可能意願的問題那第三個有人提出說另外國民參審啊國民擔任國民法官好像意願不高你同意這樣的一個描述嗎那根據一般我們現在就是說他會有一套你同意嗎他們說一般國民就擔任國民法官甚至有人說視為衛徒你覺得這有可能嗎"},{"start":7843.183,"end":7846.064,"text":"國民法官在前三庭的出席情況如何?目前國民法官的報導率差不多不到一半,原因是什麼?"},{"start":7863.813,"end":7884.442,"text":"委員都給你秀出來了有沒有因為這個也有一些他個人工作啦對說得很對一般民眾很多民眾他說他拒絕參加不曉得僱主應給予公價當你被選任為國民法官參選後僱主要給予公價是吧因為就這個部分公告周知強力宣傳嗎"},{"start":7888.89,"end":7910.506,"text":"你們自己的調查顯示民眾一般擔任國民法官大概他會有幾個擔心我們選這副選題超過一半的被擔心的包括他覺得很殘忍﹖或者說他擔心被輿論批判﹖或者擔心他個人的人身安全﹖或者他不了解案情﹖或者他覺得去影響別人的命運﹖或者他沒有法律專業"},{"start":7911.867,"end":7940.171,"text":"這些原因好像沒有包括說因為僱主不給予公價當然僱主不給予公價可能沒有表達出來那你認為有這些情況發生要如何改善那這些就是說要讓民眾他了解國民法官的這種那國民法官的施行一年你覺得民眾人民對於司法或對法官的信任度有沒有提高應該會提高應該有顯現司法還是完全沒有"},{"start":7941.28,"end":7947.827,"text":"只有一年還不足以言成功路還很長我們根據106條105條的規定6年104條總檢討那你們根據這105條是不是要出年度檢討報告每一年"},{"start":7958.058,"end":7961.079,"text":"司法院1月17日的新聞稿說你們在2月起要公佈,現在幾月了?"},{"start":7974.109,"end":8000.384,"text":"3月公佈了一般民眾認知調查的部分我們預計在9月的時候會完成所謂的一次說完嘛你們在1月的時候告訴我們2月要公佈現在已經3月了公佈了任何一份沒有公佈了一份112年的一般民眾認知的調查報告已經公佈了所以你們分了很多項目那全部要公佈完是什麼時候到9月份全部都公佈原來的105條規定你們要提出年度檢討報告有請你分好幾次公佈到該年的年底嗎"},{"start":8001.304,"end":8014.542,"text":"你們可不可以承諾秘書長今年第一年去年第一年實施你們的檢討報告甚至2266從2月一直公佈到9月可不可以承諾明年開始定一個日期什麼時候可以公佈一次公佈"},{"start":8016.192,"end":8018.394,"text":"國民法官的去年到底有多少案?"},{"start":8041.243,"end":8068.925,"text":"就去年一共108案嘛去年108案啦我有準備我告訴你108案那你猜大概是什麼類型居多就殺人啦還有這個公共危險致死因故意犯罪而致死亡嘛就殺人嘛公共危險致死嘛傷害致死嘛加起來將近九成啦其中有一個叫做公共危險致死將近有超過三成你知道這個什麼叫公共危險致死嗎"},{"start":8071.187,"end":8098.504,"text":"嚴重的酒駕致死案就是喝到爛醉如泥還去開車撞死人那這個呢也就是列入我們國民法官法好那請問一下在這些案子當中你認為這些酒駕的包括這些的他們在進行司法辯護的時候有得到足夠的辯護資源嗎這些108個案子有沒有因為我們國民法官法是一個這個減變啊我們希望他剛剛講到的減變要給他對等嘛"},{"start":8100.236,"end":8105.806,"text":"那這些人他們有得到我們國民法官法所賦予的必要的司法資源的辯護嗎?都會有"},{"start":8108.589,"end":8133.114,"text":"應該都會有不是應該都有,法律也有規定因為國民法案第5條就是說它可以要強制指定對不對那在我們的刑事署長第31條本刑而三年以上的就要強制在政法中有些情況就要強制的指定了那另外這樣的條件也符合法律輔助法第5條的規定最新本刑三年以上就可以申請法律輔助是不是"},{"start":8133.974,"end":8152.059,"text":"所以你認為這些國法案都可以申請法律輔助嗎?條件接近嗎?那你認為有多少申請法律輔助?108個案有多少申請法律輔助?你認為大概多少?我現在問你,你判斷這108個有多少申請法律輔助?"},{"start":8156.377,"end":8185.072,"text":"我告訴你齁 有99件啦九成以上的這個國審 國法案呢 申請法律輔助因為他的最低本刑三年以上 大概跟我們這個法律輔助是一致的好啦 但是你符合法律輔助就一定要申請嗎?符合法律輔助的案件 最低本刑三年以上 有這個嫌疑 嫌犯或被告有通通來申請嗎?沒有啊 那為什麼這個國法案的 這個都通通來申請?"},{"start":8187.748,"end":8215.122,"text":"什麼原因因為他一般都是經濟弱勢的沒有所有的酒駕致死的都是經濟弱勢啦我要告訴你原因啊因為我們的國法案他的審理跟一般的訴訟案不一樣他要集中通常在五天內要把它審完為什麼原來的法律設計希望減輕國民法官的負擔你總不能叫他請工假請兩個月三個月全部在審一審了全部完畢有時候一個庭啊要好幾個月啊"},{"start":8216.142,"end":8244.473,"text":"國民法官為檢定國民法官要求5天內執行這跟我們一般的司法署常態不太一樣那如果法官律師來擔任辯護一個月大概只能接4件其他的案子要排掉嘛對不對那請問一下目前我們來算一下假設一般的律師一個三個月可以消化掉30件案件假設啦三個月消化30案件一個案件大概律師的行刑多少五六萬嘛一庭嘛"},{"start":8245.213,"end":8245.893,"text":"一般國法案找律師要多少錢?"},{"start":8267.318,"end":8293.903,"text":"如果你律師這個月國法案你5天都要接國法案你一個月只能接事件你覺得一般律師會收多少有一個調查要20萬到30萬20萬到30萬他接3、4個案他才能夠跟他的投入和收入相稱所以為什麼一般的職業律師他不接國法案為什麼因為國法案的審製的特殊性所以通通跑到法服來了可是法服給多少給7萬5"},{"start":8295.871,"end":8315.683,"text":"法湖的律師如果接了國法案他那個月大概其他案不好接啊那他接4個法湖案他只能領到多少假設領滿了30萬顯然跟一般的律師的正常的職業狀況的收入有見所以所以我要怎麼請教您你覺得國法案審理是不是相當昂貴"},{"start":8317.165,"end":8345.236,"text":"相對的為什麼說簡便不對等在國法案當中你剛說了我們的檢察官的編制充足啊但是當事人去委任律師律師的支出昂貴啊所以一般的職業律師不接啊那他們又符合法服的要件通通跑來找法服法服只給七萬五啊那你說有哪一個傻瓜為了公義做公德去接法服的這個國法案如果你是法服的律師你要接國法案嗎"},{"start":8347.605,"end":8373.049,"text":"那你認為這個有必要做適度的調整所以我們就這個天花板我們會提高天花板提高我還告訴你已經有一個叫做臺灣刑事辯護律師協會他說國民法官案件缺乏吸引律師參與誘因及實務運作環境司法院因正式制度之不足意思說什麼他們興趣缺缺啊怎麼辦你們怎麼解決"},{"start":8378.614,"end":8400.353,"text":"就是在籌金部分我們就籌金那這個部分我希望今天就兩個結論的時間也到了那麼主席很客氣我就講兩個結論第一你是不是正式承諾我們依據國民法官法第105條你必須年度的檢討報告在次年的2月底前公佈可以嗎"},{"start":8402.037,"end":8426.549,"text":"第二這個檢討報告必須包括對於這一年實施以來包括了辯檢不對等包括了律師參與這些準備的不足以及一般的宣傳不足讓民眾瞭解以至於或者以為要花他的時間雇主沒有給予工價又或者說他有些人身安全問題要加速宣傳還有最重要的你們檢討報告當中"},{"start":8428.59,"end":8447.217,"text":"要針對目前絕大多數的國法案都會去運用我們的法服那法服的律師的酬金應該適度的提高到有誘因的程度,同意嗎?同意?好,那我請教一下,你們的預算明年要編對不對?今年有108案,你覺得明年大概有多少案?"},{"start":8452.963,"end":8477.915,"text":"會有200案我告訴你到民國115年開始被最低本金10年以上也要納入啊到時候量會增加所以你們要對於未來的預算的成長尤其在法服如果是200案一個案子如果是20萬就編個2000萬2000萬很多嗎會不會很多法服幫助這2000萬200件的一個當事人有得到必要的法律輔助會很多嗎"},{"start":8479.056,"end":8479.536,"text":"根據第7位翁曉琳委員發言"},{"start":8501.798,"end":8530.357,"text":"主席 秘書長 還有在座的司法院的庭長 處長們 大家好我想秘書長辛苦了經過今天這麼多委員這麼關心司法的問題 司法改革的問題給您提出了很多的建言希望您回去之後都能夠從善如流希望能夠提出更多更好的建議其實我也拜讀了司法院這邊所提出來的113年的"},{"start":8532.078,"end":8532.238,"text":"立法計畫．"},{"start":8547.665,"end":8548.525,"text":"司法院提出的立法"},{"start":8568.132,"end":8596.246,"text":"計畫是不是更能夠貼近社會的這個貼近社會的訴求也就是我們知道現在其實社會非常關切幾個重要的問題一個就是校園安全的問題一個就是詐騙的問題剛剛前面的幾個委員們其實都有不斷提到這兩個問題可是我覺得還蠻遺憾的就是看到"},{"start":8597.422,"end":8626.722,"text":"司法院所提出來的這次的年度報告裡面基本上並沒有回應社會所關切的議題其實我認為要拉近司法與人民的距離必須要時時刻刻了解人民的期許人民的希望在哪裡我們的法律我們的立法都要符合國民的法律情感我想這個部分應該秘書長會同意我的看法"},{"start":8627.842,"end":8629.123,"text":"社會期待的"},{"start":8648.146,"end":8673.922,"text":"司法可以有更積極的作為可是看起來並沒有剛剛其實其他的委員有提到司法院在回應大家對於這個前兩個月所發生的少元戈井案的部分也召開了座談會那麼在那個座談會的部分當然我只有看到新聞稿還沒有就是看到新聞的報導也還沒有這個仔細的去找到我好像也沒有找到"},{"start":8674.521,"end":8702.683,"text":"司法院所公布的新聞稿以及那天的座談會議的記錄但是從民間團體的後來在新聞上面的他們的闡述希望我們的司法院能夠朝向幾個部分修法包含是不是未來消失法適用的年齡可以提高到20歲然後可以有"},{"start":8704.154,"end":8718.152,"text":"說短講話教育的期間還有要增加少年保護官等等的這些制度那不曉得就是現在司法院對於少數法的修法有沒有一些想法有沒有一些進度這個部分是不是可以請秘書長回答"},{"start":8719.514,"end":8743.062,"text":"因為這一次包括2月19號那個座談會那專家學我們有邀請專家學者來各個民間團體也都邀請過來那有提出各種意見各種意見那在修法方面這一部分我們邵家廳也有一個規劃這樣是可以請廳長"},{"start":8746.643,"end":8775.362,"text":"對回答就是你們現在的修法的規劃及你們的預期的進度是如何?是的就是說陳如剛委員垂詢的大概我們目前最新的進度是跟行政院在洽商跟各部會開會討論這些校園安全或者是調保的這些相關的這些就是跟學校端或者社區端怎麼樣的去就個案去做一個這樣一個就是商議如何去讓少年能夠得到一些"},{"start":8775.862,"end":8803.578,"text":"就學或者是安全的這些相關的一個處理好好謝謝是謝謝廳長因為您剛剛在前面回覆前面幾個委員的時候有提到但是我特別想要知道就是說就法院的這個部分你們的想法是什麼因為其實坦白說這個校園割井案已經是在過去已經有陸陸續續有很多這個發生在校園裡面的這個傷害案啊等等然後昨天還有一個新聞我不知道你們有沒有看到就是一個北投的高中生"},{"start":8804.844,"end":8828.956,"text":"在課堂中間對老師施暴又言語的辱罵等等其實校園安全的問題這個已經是非常的嚴重不僅可能會對同班的同學學校的學生同學們造成傷害連對老師都是這樣很粗暴而且這已經不是這個首例在這些年這十幾二十年來其實陸陸續續都有發生這個問題特別是當我們的校園管教權不斷的鬆綁"},{"start":8834.258,"end":8834.398,"text":"司法院秘書長"},{"start":8858.952,"end":8884.11,"text":"可以讓民眾們知道畢竟你們提出來的修法案進到立法院我們大家委員們還要一起討論跟這個司法院這邊要一起討論所以是不是您今天這邊可以還有秘書長這邊是不是可以先提出一個你們最快可以提出修法的時間點好讓我們社會大眾知道我們的司法院作為是積極的"},{"start":8887.814,"end":8888.214,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8909.291,"end":8929.956,"text":"應應向高雄有高雄邵家法院那希望北邵家法院也能夠盡快成立那所以剛剛秘書長在立法計畫的後面我們希望在這個會期能夠針對要增補調保人力跟成立北邵家法院涉及的這些相關的法案能夠請立法院還有委員們大家來一併的來支持"},{"start":8930.416,"end":8930.756,"text":"立法院秘書長列席"},{"start":8946.904,"end":8967.899,"text":"委員提到的就是我們為了在修法前能夠實際上每一個少年的狀況都能夠掌握所以我們也在2月1號已經上路的事辦計畫跟委員報告我目前呢全國我們打算就透過委外那也獲得行政院的一個支持就是可以希望能夠透過委外人力增補"},{"start":8969.02,"end":8969.321,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8987.575,"end":9007.594,"text":"保護管說的上面都能夠納入我們的事辦計畫 醫生先簡單補充謝謝聽長的補充我覺得這樣的說明非常的清楚不過我覺得蠻遺憾的就是其實你們剛剛講得很好但是都沒有在你們的立法計畫裡面講你們立法計畫說你們只要偵測的是高等法院的司法事務官完全沒有講到你們未來要增補這個調保人力"},{"start":9009.896,"end":9034.872,"text":"所以這個整個立法計畫的部分的話我希望以後你們提到立法院來的時候是能夠是更清楚的否則的話其實讓我誤會我以為說你們其實只是要再多補高等法院的事務官但是對於現在大家社會上面這麼期待的少年法院的法官或是調法人力相關的這個緣合的配置可是你們都沒有提到"},{"start":9035.672,"end":9049.636,"text":"是的是所以剛剛秘書長有先口頭上我們會後會再立即的儘速送進來好的好謝謝那麼這個部分我想就是也謝謝秘書這個廳長和秘書長剛剛的這個承諾那另外就是說有關於詐騙的問題那針對詐騙的問題在這些年來其實我們知道詐騙的人數是不斷的增加那法院的"},{"start":9063.986,"end":9064.767,"text":"地檢署的偵辦終結人數是否有類似的資料?"},{"start":9090.572,"end":9091.593,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9100.556,"end":9115.088,"text":"一般這個都會在法院這邊統計的就是涉及到這個因為這些都會涉及到刑法339條之四的加重竊盜所以我們都有詳細統計出來從109年到112年都有一個明細表出來"},{"start":9123.936,"end":9140.394,"text":"事後請您再提供給我我想大家對於炸期的問題不僅是要從更頭端因為之前是整個跨部會一起都在做防炸譬如說速發部在做防炸的技術的部分"},{"start":9140.834,"end":9141.554,"text":"立法院第1會期司法院秘書長列席"},{"start":9163.922,"end":9164.283,"text":"立法院秘書長列席"},{"start":9192.583,"end":9197.306,"text":"有輕判那這個種種的問題我覺得這是司法院必須要好好的去了解那麼有沒有可能不管在呃良心的標準啊或者是呃未來跟地檢署這邊可以好好的針對這些事情一起談那麼如果說呃民眾期待未來我們的詐欺罪的這個呃處刑可以提高那司法院這邊是不是也應該要有所提案呃這個呃總是"},{"start":9219.28,"end":9239.097,"text":"政府就是一個團隊嘛那大家必須要共同的去思考怎麼樣能夠讓台灣的炸雞的這個問題能夠減緩那我希望就是司法院這邊可以提出來那不知道就是未來秘書長這邊司法院這邊現在有沒有已經計畫未來要做些什麼事"},{"start":9240.718,"end":9254.5,"text":"這些我們我們對這個這些兩行的兩行的有關的兩行的加重加重的這些因素啊我們都會應送有關的參考手冊給"},{"start":9255.882,"end":9279.133,"text":"給法官另外我們現在也有在建制AI的輔助良心信息好好好這部分我曉得了對那我最後還有一個部分就是說可能回去要跟司法跟這個法務部提一下就是他們這次有提出來在你們立法計畫裡面有要增加這個檢查事務官可是看看我現在的PPT裡面其實不管是增加檢察官助理現在其實檢查事務官的缺額都還有"},{"start":9284.375,"end":9307.627,"text":"那為什麼要增加這麼多的檢察官助理那這部分的話我希望就是之後法務部能夠給我一個清單到底現在不管是這個檢察事務官檢察官然後檢察官助理他們是怎麼分工怎麼運作那檢察事務官他目前他的職務已經他是不是在本職還是他是調到其他的單位去做一些行政的工作這部分還請法務部要提供資料給我謝謝"},{"start":9309.268,"end":9309.748,"text":"臨時提案處理"},{"start":9331.305,"end":9349.942,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們司法院：對,謝謝我們秘書長還有司法院的同仁：大家早安,我是李思堯：我是司法法制委員會的新生：我會努力學習：如果思堯有：發言或是內容有不正確的地方：也歡迎大家可以隨時的指證我：我們互相尊重"},{"start":9350.783,"end":9365.22,"text":"那我今天會針對國民法官上路的成效來虛心檢討剛剛也很多委員也追尋過還有司法人員的離職潮是五年新高那我們的改善方案在哪裡我會就教於各位"},{"start":9365.82,"end":9366.121,"text":"請就憲法的專業來回答這個問題"},{"start":9392.537,"end":9412.077,"text":"您可以大聲一點那一天我是看會上主席是有提到這個是行政院跟立法院之間的一個關係所以呢再具體一點質詢是上對下的關係嗎就您的憲法素養您是司法院的秘書長"},{"start":9413.43,"end":9416.552,"text":"那應該是兩院之間 各本於主權"},{"start":9421.943,"end":9442.75,"text":"依據我們非常多的大法官事件都告訴了我們check and balance 憲法機關之間是權力分立平等相為的我想在新國會上路的時候我們作為憲法的解釋機關也應當來捍衛這樣子的權力分立的重要的原則跟價值"},{"start":9444.551,"end":9461.982,"text":"第2個問題也是今天也正在此時此刻我剛剛在隔壁的內政委員會那我赫然發現有在野黨委員原本有提出一個臨時提案但目前是暫擱但是也是有憲法方面是否合宜的問題想就教於您"},{"start":9464.509,"end":9478.43,"text":"針對這個驚嚇海域的意外事故那有在野黨的委員在立法院提案要成立調閱專案小組也就是要有以立法權來介入來進行一個"},{"start":9479.171,"end":9480.532,"text":"針對任何一個檢方偵辦中的案件"},{"start":9493.928,"end":9502.576,"text":"立法院得以來成立調閱專案小組用立法權來介入司法檢調的權限嗎?這個應該是簡單的ABC的問題關於立法院的這個調查權"},{"start":9512.506,"end":9517.991,"text":"那之前在釋字,大法官釋字585號、325號還有613、633還有739號都有做一些說明"},{"start":9529.261,"end":9554.335,"text":"那所以回應我的問題如果說今天這個金門意外的事件非常不幸我們當然希望協助釐清真相立法委員本於職責來提出對於這個海巡弟兄的裝備要提升啦或是在執法過程當中的一些協力精進這當然是立法委員去監督的範圍跟事項但如果是要在偵辦中的案件來成立調閱小組到底可以嗎"},{"start":9560.026,"end":9563.969,"text":"有非常多的解釋,我在這裡就"},{"start":9572.389,"end":9589.753,"text":"因為我認為非常需要在我們司法法制委員會就憲法的運作原則非常清楚的透過我們司法院的專業人員秘書長還有我們廳長的釐清我們必須把這個憲政運作的原則搞清楚否則國會會鬧了笑話"},{"start":9592.779,"end":9614.865,"text":"以釋字第729號非常清楚的解釋了檢查機關代表國家進行犯罪之偵查與追溯基於權力分立與制衡原則且為保障檢查機關獨立行使職權對於偵查中之案件立法院自不得向其調閱相關卷證換言之聽講您點頭嗎"},{"start":9619.486,"end":9631.529,"text":"所以你要補充說明一是自第729號的精神如果立法院通過了這樣一個臨時提案要成立一個調閱小組針對檢調在偵辦中的案件yes or no可以不可以跟委員說明根據四字729號就如同剛剛委員所說明的"},{"start":9642.179,"end":9657.524,"text":"他在解釋文裡面明文記載立法院向檢察機關調閱這個偵查中的案件的部分是不能向其調閱見證那如果是調閱以偵查終結而不起訴或者是未經起訴或其他方式的檢案見證也有設定相關的範圍"},{"start":9662.225,"end":9687.271,"text":"立法院僅能在制度預算法律等事項對檢查機關進行通案監督因無介入個案調閱偵查卷證之餘地這個是我們729號的釋字內容我們內政委員會的這個提案目前應當是沒有處理我也希望在野黨的委員聽到我們今天透過司法院的秘書長還有我們憲法法庭的廳長"},{"start":9689.952,"end":9705.187,"text":"再一次為我們清楚說明大法官釋字729號基本的精神應當要懸崖勒馬我們不樂見任何的政治力來介入司法案件我們也不希望粗糙的國會特徵組就這樣出現了嗎"},{"start":9709.225,"end":9732.484,"text":"為現非常清楚謝謝您的回應我一定要在這裡利用我質詢的時間來再一次釐清這樣嚴肅的憲法分立我們應當遵守的原則謝謝您的回答好那我們來看看我的第二頁質詢我手上拿的是臺北書展我去看了親子天下這個攤位我跟陳建仁院長一起去的這個"},{"start":9734.165,"end":9758.097,"text":"小大人的公民素養課這一本非常好而裡頭呢針對我們最新的國民法官的制度也在這樣一個對於學生的公民素養的科普很清楚的為我們釐清了國民法官就是為了拉近讓公民有平等參與的權利我們去去除過去法官高高在上"},{"start":9758.957,"end":9779.943,"text":"我們希望打造親近友善讓公民也可以成為司法審判的協力者這是非常好的你們可以來一起推推這本書好那我們的國民法官法上路我們在審查法案我也都參與了那軟硬體軟體就是修法硬體的部分呢我們來檢視下一頁"},{"start":9782.677,"end":9804.604,"text":"我們跟設計研究院攜手合作打造了國民法官的法庭設計我跟秘書長說明其實臺灣的設計研究院是吳思堯本席努力催生的我希望能夠透過design thinking在任何的公部門的空間規劃能夠有使用者的思維可以達到我們要的一個政策目的我們透過設計導入導入使用者思維"},{"start":9809.486,"end":9838.252,"text":"能夠讓國民法官法庭重新redesign目前已經改造了21家地方法院28間國民法官的法庭這是before改造前的高雄地方法院南投地方法院新北地方法院就是高高在上燈光又不明亮感覺又很遙遠人民對於司法的禁用是完全被剝奪或是他覺得有相當高的一個"},{"start":9838.932,"end":9839.132,"text":"：立法院議員："},{"start":9866.075,"end":9887.714,"text":"秘書長：你們覺得：這樣一個硬體的導入：有沒有有助於我們國民法官心智的上路?這個都有得到德國的：這得IF大獎：或是：設計大獎：對對對那這個是得獎：得獎是額外的啦這是extra的honor：對於使用者呢?"},{"start":9889.628,"end":9917.64,"text":"目前反應應該都非常好那我們目前是28間改造完成有下一階段要改造的計畫嗎?市林地院也在增設當中那所以不只那完全第一階段就是針對國民法官的法庭設計嗎還是有其他的非國民法官的法庭你們也要啟動這個設計導入的空間改造的新思維"},{"start":9919.305,"end":9945.93,"text":"就是我現在這個讓民眾有禁用錢我們都會朝這個方向有一些好因為時間有限您稍後提供就事後提供書面資料我們下一個階段的design thinking導入我們的司法制度我很會持續的追蹤基本上這個案子也是司要本席一路的協助推動我今天可以在司法法制委員會"},{"start":9946.81,"end":9970.684,"text":"就這個部分來跟大家分享我是覺得非常的光榮好那我們軟體修了法硬體也提供了相當的協力好下一頁但是國民法官法上路國民法官法庭上路我再佔用一點點時間不好意思剛剛前面幾位委員都檢視了他的執行成效我也知道就在上週我們也邀請了日本的專家"},{"start":9971.404,"end":10000.223,"text":"來分享了日本的刑事訴訟制度跟他們裁判員制度分享給我們到我手上的資料是原定要2023年去年要收件300件那實際的收件是108件但審結只有16件只有14.8%換言之他的收件數也好或是審結數都偏低那剛剛有幾位委員提到這個國民法官的報道率不到一半"},{"start":10001.304,"end":10017.48,"text":"或者是他在審理的過程因為這是一個新的制度大家要去包括徵詢國民法官然後包括在審理的過程他也需要上課也需要去更多的協力的角色但是這樣一個審結收件的比例你們的檢討如何"},{"start":10022.104,"end":10028.627,"text":"我們的辯護量能不足國民法官的報道率不高這都是橫在眼前的挑戰包括我們眾嘉賓昭偉剛剛也提出來你們是幾月份會提出一個執行一年的報告檢討報告"},{"start":10050.322,"end":10073.597,"text":"那我們最終的年度的總結報告是在那今年的9月份會提出來那順便回應那委員剛剛所關注的問題就於為什麼審結案件只有16件那我可以跟委員報告一下我們事實上也做過分析因為在前半年112年的前半年的起訴案件量是真的是比較少到了7月之後"},{"start":10074.637,"end":10099.759,"text":"檢察官慎重起訴是先詳細的偵查之後慢慢的起訴上來那經過一個準備程序的期間那真的進到選任程序在最後進到審理程序所以大部分都集中在下半年才出現那目前來講目前的收案量已經到22件了所以相關的案件量的成長跟犯罪數來講應該是回復到一般的正常水準沒有持那個起訴遞言的問題"},{"start":10100.52,"end":10109.863,"text":"我們就是持續的來精進其實就日本的制度2009上路之後他們也是花了好幾年國民的滿意度才提升他們甚至花了五年我做過調查所以我沒有苛責現在馬上就要達標但是在軟硬體的部分國會都給予支持軟體我們的修法配套執法都完成了"},{"start":10122.848,"end":10124.089,"text":"我們現在先處理臨時提案臨時提案總共有兩案麻煩請宣讀"},{"start":10151.737,"end":10175.152,"text":"臨時提案一 為避免違背法符．以提供人民法律輔助．保障人民基本訴訟權利為終止．要求司法院一個月內．將申請法符．無需審查資歷的適用．及防弊措施提出書面檢討報告．並送至本院司法法制委員會支委員．提案委員吳宗憲．盧志強．林思明．傅坤祺 謝龍介等"},{"start":10176.751,"end":10193.541,"text":"臨時提案二有鑒於司法及法制委員會會議原改建目的信任有效區隔立法委員與媒體以求更好之攝影品質以作為委員會改建之實驗性場域致使本委員會與其他立法院設置之委員會有別"},{"start":10194.574,"end":10214.662,"text":"委改介後是否能達上開目的仍有疑議故提議將司法及法制委會之空間配置增加2個質詢台提案委員 翁曉琳 謝龍介 林思明 柯建民 吳宗憲 傅坤祺等 宣讀完畢請問就第1案的部分 有提案委員要補充說明"},{"start":10216.055,"end":10216.275,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10232.446,"end":10256.756,"text":"那麼他從第一項到第四項主要是規範這個所謂的無資歷者就大家說的經濟弱勢者但是事實上的法律輔助不限定是屬於經濟弱勢者包括了包括原住民包括了說最新本行三年以上那包括剛剛我們所說到的國民法官法當中這些因故意犯罪致死的很多都會跑到國民法那個法律輔助法的"},{"start":10261.938,"end":10281.205,"text":"那我是覺得因為去年的108件的國法案還在做檢討當中那是不是我們可以為了因為國法案的接受法服的情況跟其他不屬於免用資歷審查的案件顯然有別那我是希望一個月恐怕來不及因為我剛剛問過了"},{"start":10282.205,"end":10283.086,"text":"麻煩機關就委員所提的臨時提案做回覆"},{"start":10313.347,"end":10321.777,"text":"假如能3個月那會比較完整所以建議是能不能把1個月調整為3個月"},{"start":10328.7,"end":10329.941,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10349.591,"end":10351.213,"text":"請教時間,如果要把國法案的檢討報告是9月才出來,你這裡壓3月,我確認一下"},{"start":10375.132,"end":10398.278,"text":"大家希望完整給你們合理的時間如果把國法案件併入的話可能還要再考慮刑事廳那邊的國法的評估的進度這是原因之一第二個就是說如果說把國法案件併入的話可能這個議案可能會更複雜化我們原先本來估計是說如果不是針對國法案件沒有包含國法案件就一般強制辯護案件來做的話"},{"start":10400.499,"end":10408.282,"text":"因為我們這個法服他是一個獨立的基金會所以呢他們如何的運作那我們司法院是負責監管的部分所以就原來的提案來說的話我們可能就預估可能要將近三個月的時間可能會比較完足啦"},{"start":10417.086,"end":10442.947,"text":"那另外呢就針對這個無資歷的部分呢因為法服法第13條有關省資歷的部分有想有一個法定的一個規定那在配合法定規定的狀況之下其實我們實務上有一些因應的作為那但是因為立法院有這樣的一個更精進的一個要求所以呢我們希望就原來的提案的部分可不可以給我們三個月的時間讓我們來做一個比較完整的處理以上謝謝"},{"start":10445.109,"end":10445.47,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10477.365,"end":10487.129,"text":"好那我們就那個期限的部分我們就把它改成三個月大家有沒有意見那沒有意見的話我們就依照修正後的文字通過好那第二案"},{"start":10490.745,"end":10491.986,"text":"提案委員提供回覆"},{"start":10512.749,"end":10513.229,"text":"這個你要拖那麼久"},{"start":10540.002,"end":10544.885,"text":"你有沒有辦法這個能夠馬上做修改那你 這個我們搬那個執行台過來這沒有辦法嗎"},{"start":10564.363,"end":10573.064,"text":"報告主席搬執行台來沒有問題我們就是架在這個前面這兩個空間但是他會影響到委員的進出的動線"},{"start":10577.861,"end":10600.25,"text":"我覺得這個不是很大的工程但是是不是說你們說的比如說一週內或一個月內先把未來的配置圖給委員看一下如果委員覺得OK增加兩個執行台是可以的你的相關配置需要的作業時間自然會給你但是現在你說的很複雜要休會期間大家一想說就兩個執行台有那麼困難嗎但你有提到說要走到要什麼的確有這個可能"},{"start":10602.811,"end":10628.7,"text":"先規劃 限期規劃出來那委員會再來OK後那看多少作業時間趕快來辦理好 那這樣可以嗎 就是我們認為是說要做修改嗎報主席那是不是給我 給我們兩個禮拜的時間我們來規劃不不不 畫一個圖為什麼要兩個禮拜一個禮拜就可以了因為你是放兩個 兩個那個那我們就一個禮拜把圖 圖面提出來下禮拜提到委員會來給委員看這樣OK嗎"},{"start":10633.331,"end":10659.21,"text":"這個應該先送每個委員會的辦公室讓我們先看吧就是如果說還需要做決議的話委員會上面就可以做決議了沒有問題這個很簡單的事務怎麼會搞成這樣就是備詢台跟執行台來那在還沒有定案你休會期間你要去改你去改這個時候你就先搬過來然後用那個無線麥克風就可以進行執行跟備詢嘛"},{"start":10659.75,"end":10670.721,"text":"那你如果破壞到怕會破壞到現場或是動線那你這個圖通過以後他到休會的時候再去改現在立刻就可以做這個執行了嗎"},{"start":10673.387,"end":10675.269,"text":"當初司法法制委員會是立法院第一個率先要去思考說"},{"start":10696.294,"end":10696.434,"text":"委員會議委員會議"},{"start":10715.926,"end":10716.247,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10735.203,"end":10760.51,"text":"都要去做到,好不好,否則搬了兩個回來,到時候委員會發現,不好用,你沒有被罵,所以還是...如果那個PowerPoint,你現在看這個都能看了,那你站在那邊執行,趕快換啦。沒有啦,你如果...委員,我們這時候很有經驗,那桌子上要有一個monitor,其實也方便大家,方便大家。"},{"start":10762.541,"end":10789.408,"text":"我沒有反對的意見只是說不要說只改很簡單最後覺得不好用我只是提醒那個吳委員謝謝來來先第一個吼你們現在出了這麼多新聞吼你要怎麼處理你要給我注意第二個委員會過去是怎麼樣我們尊重現在委員會做的決議你就是配合"},{"start":10791.035,"end":10815.625,"text":"這麼簡單的事你為什麼要故意在這裡讓大家委員有爭執叫你擺兩張桌子要四五個月有這麼麻煩嗎就當擺一張桌子10公尺也要收費把立法委員當盤子嗎我不需要你回答我現在告訴你擺兩張桌子無線麥克風把它擺上去"},{"start":10817.599,"end":10842.772,"text":"讓這個委員會要基本上議委質詢要最卑微的尊嚴就這麼簡單至於說上面沒有monitor所以我們這個委員會為什麼我們在這裡質詢沒有桌前的monitor現在可以用這麼久我們看主席要這樣看然後看那邊要這樣看連院長連院"},{"start":10845.313,"end":10855.474,"text":"行政院院長到立法院備詢都是跟立委面對面叫你搬兩張桌子來就這麼簡單瞭解了嗎瞭解"},{"start":10857.39,"end":10875.868,"text":"主席那我可不可以一併把一些需求表達因為既然委員都表達齁其實齁我用這個委員會也經常來啦那最大的困擾就是說在質詢答的過程中我要從這邊離開齁我不知道從哪裡走啊我從這裡走齁也會入境啦我從哪裡走還要跟主席先打個招呼啦"},{"start":10876.408,"end":10900.038,"text":"那我們的助理要進來,他們必須匍匐前進啊,所以呢這個情況的確要改,如果陳如雯剛剛我們副總召所說的,前面擺兩個諮詢台,請一併把那個席位的分佈,還有出入的動線也稍微規劃一下,不然的確這個實驗性質我覺得,其實我是可以適應,只是最不能適應的就是說怎麼進出來,因為門口都在那裡啊。"},{"start":10900.538,"end":10900.658,"text":"主席"},{"start":10925.951,"end":10937.798,"text":"主席你就直接採釋第一個分階段實施讓他一週內把兩個桌子怎麼弄把它弄進來我們這個先進行第二階段整個委會怎麼改"},{"start":10938.658,"end":10958.875,"text":"第二階段另外再送然後因為那個是所謂的會期結束才來處理我們分兩階段來做好不好那這樣喔可不可以就是說我想說這兩個放兩個那個備訓執行台這個可不可以一個禮拜內處理完畢另外就是大概兩個禮拜內你們把那個圖簡單的畫出來這樣時間上面來不來得及那個報組局我們來照辦"},{"start":10966.197,"end":10966.597,"text":"陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":10991.24,"end":11015.485,"text":"好,謝謝主席那秘書長還有我們今天列席的各這個庭處長還有我們在場委員媒體大家午安那我想想請教一下我們秘書長那在這張圖表是來自我們司法院112年度"},{"start":11018.389,"end":11045.368,"text":"這個一般民眾對於司法認知的一個調查的一個數據那也是從司法院至這個95年開始每年委託這個民調公司所做的調查一個報告並且做長期的觀察那其中對於法官的信任度至109年度有超過五成那在近兩年更維持在近六成高達5.8的這個滿意度"},{"start":11048.188,"end":11067.703,"text":"那從這次的這個調查看來這也是我們蔡總統任內最後一次的一個這個調查報告但是在民間我們也看到也有這個傳出的數據是3乘2的滿意度結果我想請教一下秘書長那對於這個數據您的解讀是如何"},{"start":11071.513,"end":11091.047,"text":"因為各種民調他可能在命題方面可能那個內容在一般民眾他答覆所以這個可能跟調查的內容還是會有關對調查結果還是有關?會有關"},{"start":11096.581,"end":11108.757,"text":"好 其實在這次的民調顯示的結果民眾會認為說司法不公正的主要原因可能是這個法官亂判而且把這個結果"},{"start":11111.332,"end":11131.631,"text":"這個判決結果不符合民意的這個結果就把它歸類法官亂判所以才會導致可能像剛剛秘書長您所說的這個數據看起來可能依民眾的這個滿意度他可能個人感覺的問題去答詢可能會有落差當然這也是做參考的一個依據"},{"start":11132.972,"end":11160.911,"text":"那我也希望說我們雖然最近的這個滿意度是有史以來這從95年到現在看起來是最高點那我也希望說我們可以繼續來對於這個滿意度不要因為到了這個58點我們就停在那邊是不是還可以繼續提升這個民眾對於我們這個法官的這個信任度的相關問題我希望說我們是不是可以一起來測盡"},{"start":11162.813,"end":11169.539,"text":"不要就停在這邊 可以再往上攀升這部分再請我們秘書長跟所有的同仁一起來努力"},{"start":11171.428,"end":11193.925,"text":"那再來就是這個雪漢司法官的問題雪漢司法官我相信這最近也是常常會聽到那當然有高滿意度的這個背後是否就是來自於高工時還有高壓力的這個司法官的制度才會演變有這個問題產生那本期的選區在宜蘭"},{"start":11195.168,"end":11222.204,"text":"那在宜蘭地方法院為例觀察到今年1月新受理的這個民事案件較去年同期增加了近40%那刑事案件也比去年同期增加差不多超過45%以上但這個不是宜蘭縣的個案應該是全國的一個通案那以全國的全國性的問題我想請教就是說各縣市地方法官"},{"start":11223.465,"end":11229.456,"text":"這種如此爆量的情況那我們對於這個問題有沒有什麼解決的辦法"},{"start":11230.339,"end":11257.979,"text":"就是說確實人力是不足的所以我們也是很期盼說在總言而法那個上限一萬五千人能夠也麻煩我們國會這邊能協助因為確實人力不足因為爆量都那個民刑事案件都增加的比例都相當相當高"},{"start":11259.212,"end":11286.642,"text":"那像人員不足的部分我想請教秘書長就是說針對這個部分我們對於案件的內容有沒有辦法去分門別類像有一些案件其實可以不必進入到我們這個司法機關可以在地方調處或是有其他方式透過警察機關來做協助有沒有可能因為這個也涉及到整個那個"},{"start":11289.128,"end":11315.667,"text":"行事訴訟法整個體制的問題尤其像現在這幾年整個傾向就是很多事都需要法院來照料因為不管怎樣法院還是在我們社會會被認為是公信力的場所所以很多修法之後"},{"start":11321.975,"end":11340.905,"text":"我本席個人認為是在我們整個配套可以比較完善的情況之下能夠把一些案件不要讓我們的司法官這麼的勞心勞累那這個部分我還是請我們秘書長跟我們同仁一起去研議看看有沒有什麼辦法可以讓"},{"start":11341.67,"end":11360.111,"text":"我們在緣額不足的情況之下來減輕我們這個司法官的這個工作量因為我們在這個司法改革的這個方案中也很明確的第6點裡面已經寫出就是希望能夠減輕法官的工作負擔那這部分我真的希望說我們來重視這個問題另外在"},{"start":11366.666,"end":11393.534,"text":"這個國民法官的制度問題的部分我想跟我們秘書長來做一個探討我們國民法官法已經上入一週年了那司法院在這個1月份的記者會當中也有提到去年這個國民法官案件共有108件那我相信今天也許多委員都關心因為我們原本設定是這個300件那很顯然在這個處理的過程裡面"},{"start":11394.054,"end":11395.635,"text":"因為他畢竟要有一定法定要件才會進入到國民法官"},{"start":11423.703,"end":11438.881,"text":"所以相對的有時候相對的有可能那段時間在所屬的縣市他治安相對是好的其實有些其實他是正面的那當然他"},{"start":11439.765,"end":11440.486,"text":"我想再請教一下針對我們這個圖表"},{"start":11470.739,"end":11493.363,"text":"這個圖表我們可以看到就是我們司法院也是自己做的調查可以看到我們有近七成的這個超過半數的民眾擔心自己擔任這個國民法官的時候會不會因為看不懂或是不了解狀況那雖然這個國民法官的精神是借重民眾自身的這個生活經驗來做處理但應該還是要推動"},{"start":11496.869,"end":11497.409,"text":"司法院秘書長"},{"start":11522.383,"end":11546.21,"text":"對於這個問題是不是來做更詳細的這個宣導還是什麼方式來檢討有沒有可能這個其實我們也都有盡量在宣導比如說像目前我們這個郵寄的那個提款機其實都有我們國民法官這方面的一些宣導那接著我們廳長他有一些"},{"start":11547.23,"end":11562.516,"text":"委員關心這個問題事實上我們在國民法官的宣導部分我們分家做多元是多元多方的宣導方式包括我們會針對村里你學校或是企業團體會做一般做宣導活動包括比較深度的報導"},{"start":11563.556,"end":11587.946,"text":"那跟到學校園裡面跟學生做互動或是模擬法庭的一些相關的宣傳那這部分我們會持續在做那在這多元多那個多元分流的宣導活動我們一直都在持續在進行那這有關剛剛委員所提到的剛剛說有半數的國民法官擔心說他看不懂法律相關法律知識是不是要做科普的部分當然科普是很重要的"},{"start":11588.246,"end":11588.546,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11606.97,"end":11625.951,"text":"參與的國民法官都會了解整個訴訟程序的內容包括證據的認定根據什麼樣的證據認定什麼樣的事實在評議階段有什麼不清楚的都可以詢問法官法官都很樂意的給他一個正確的觀念跟跟相關的說明所以這部分我們一直都是在做持續的進行上"},{"start":11626.491,"end":11646.957,"text":"好 謝謝秘書長 謝謝聽長那我是還是建議就是我們針對宣傳方面應該朝向更這個廣泛的方式或是更生動能夠有讓年輕人有一個誘因的一種宣導方式我相信這對我們一定是正面的好 以上謝謝"},{"start":11648.533,"end":11648.773,"text":"副分席委員"},{"start":11671.324,"end":11677.149,"text":"秘書長,您提到刑事訴訟法245,禁止辯護人在場陳述意見與筆記權,是採取事後救濟的機制。"},{"start":11691.141,"end":11716.536,"text":"那辯護人這些權利一旦被限制以後,禁止影響到被告的律師依賴權事後的救濟,他會有什麼樣的實意?這一部分,請我們刑事廳,就這一部分我們都已經有請行政院都會刑,我們有整個配套"},{"start":11718.2,"end":11718.26,"text":"主席"},{"start":11748.88,"end":11757.502,"text":"徵據能力有沒有撤銷徵據能力就由法院來判斷認為說他違反的話那可能是因為當時可能你現在這樣修法會影響他的徵據能力的判斷會影響那就是以法院的實務就是徵據能力會喪失是不是這樣那你們修法有沒有考慮說採取"},{"start":11776.122,"end":11802.354,"text":"檢察官保留或是法官保留的立法模式那我們在諮詢會的時候曾經有考慮過這樣的方式但是在法務部的立場他們認為說在偵查中貴在機密性跟迅速性所以可能說如果你說事先透過說的檢察官保留或法官保留的方式可能對他們的偵查詢問的方式可能在進擊上不是那麼順利所以才會採取事後究竟的方式來處理這樣"},{"start":11804.264,"end":11831.598,"text":"所以基本上就是採取讓他對於辯護人的依賴這條被告的權益的保障那你有一個問題比較曖昧就是說檢察官他偵測檢察官助理"},{"start":11833.206,"end":11857.973,"text":"這個倡議在去年我看調資料立法院就有了然後草野的立法委員都很支持可是司法院好像還沒有提出草案我們這一部分有向委員報告我們有提出在第4案那個也有把法院主持法有要"},{"start":11859.382,"end":11884.852,"text":"要徵涉那個檢察官助理也都列入我們立法計畫你這就是要隱姦了嘛你好像擱置這個然後因為朝野支持的是那個檢察官助理的徵額嘛啊你現在總之再審査拿出來高等法院你要徵涉司法事務官嗎?是不是這樣?"},{"start":11886.297,"end":11913.373,"text":"就是評估是認為說因為在業務單位啊那你增加的好像你這就是擺明我覺得你在綁架啊你在幫票因為一般我們修法會增刑各個業務 業務廳啊那不然為什麼那個案件大家都支持還會一直刪不出來在擔任就是在擔任啊"},{"start":11916.496,"end":11944.945,"text":"因為之前他也是最近才拜會我們之前2月6號才來拜會我們司法院那機關之間本來有一套流程那你現在法院組織法的修正草案到哪裡了我們都內部在有關條文都在要修的這些條文都在整理會辦中這個是司法院還要到行政院會選的嗎"},{"start":11946.585,"end":11974.883,"text":"對不對那你現在還沒到司法院還沒出來我們會儘快這樣完整會議就心裡不會對了我們會儘快對不對那也因為這個會期就不可能在委員會因為畢竟修法它有一個格式修法它有一套流程我本席的看法這改成是你們自己五個"},{"start":11977.419,"end":11980.061,"text":"法務部草泥棄保潛逃罪還有司法關縮罪你有什麼看法?"},{"start":12002.444,"end":12022.588,"text":"我看你剛才都不敢贏啦是不是因為你們反對嘛所以這個法案就一直沒有辦法送到立法院來嘛基本上你們就是抗拒啊尤其是司法關說罪啊因為棄保潛逃跟司法關說譬如說諸葛隆棄保潛逃嘛"},{"start":12031.528,"end":12036.973,"text":"為什麼國人對司法沒有信心?你對出國融這個你有什麼看法?雖然個案那已經走了嘛跑了嘛棄保潛逃嘛那社會影響這麼大嘛你覺得怎麼樣?"},{"start":12048.976,"end":12075.593,"text":"那個結果就是社會一定會有落差法律就是明明賦予法官可以羈押你看台南市那個金華局長他一審判8年二審檢到6年半法官為什麼不准以他交保桃園那個局長一審判13年就交保了那為什麼台南他不准以他交保"},{"start":12076.874,"end":12104.489,"text":"就法官他看到很多事證因為他可以限制他嘛所以才會有臺南市的光電現在還可以繼續偵辦啊如果交保他就照處理啊對不對而且光電牽扯那麼多那祖國隆這也是啊明明就可以給他支啊那你這樣就是讓我們的國民對於法律的情感就受到傷害"},{"start":12106.505,"end":12134.835,"text":"所以權貴這有很多人變破形 變破一個遭一個破一個遭一個你做司法人你不會覺得很辛苦嗎所以為什麼棄保潛逃罪跟司法關稅罪本席是希望你們能夠支持阿我們會支持阿你會支持阿會支持阿這樣有什麼具體的作為"},{"start":12135.868,"end":12159.181,"text":"那這個我們會跟法務部那邊一起來就是這個當然這個是主責是法務部但是我們會支持我們會後也會我們聽會把這些意見轉給法務部來行法339條制是加重詐欺罪是一年以上七年以下"},{"start":12160.865,"end":12190.136,"text":"那你知道現在電信詐騙 很多的案件 量刑 都是在6個月以下那各位一哈 被判兩年以上的被判兩年以上 判刑兩年以上的 為乎其為那法院的量刑偏輕 所以造成這些詐欺犯盛行更誇張的就是說 一罪一法一罪一法理論上是罪責要更重"},{"start":12191.172,"end":12210.155,"text":"可是 定型執行型的結果 卻是換越多 它優惠越多啊秘書長 你看所有實例都這樣啊 這樣一罪一法有什麼情形所以司法院對這些 針對量刑 你講一下 你怎麼具體來改善那 這個我們 有沒你想過 詐騙的越來越多啊"},{"start":12219.326,"end":12222.187,"text":"那為什麼判出來都不是這樣啊?那你們內部都沒有檢討過?我給你提的這個數據是屬性嘛"},{"start":12249.049,"end":12262.813,"text":"現在...那你看國人怎麼看待司法嘛現在就是說這種...詐騙這麼普遍你身後邊一定有人說我某一個法官的朋友退休了叫我們陪他來給我陳述捏我也愛莫能助啊詐騙是有夠多的 因為坦白講他們不怕嘛那邊誰不怕啊 乖乖乖乖的出來啊"},{"start":12278.326,"end":12279.066,"text":"謝謝榮介委員 接下來我們請傅坤祺委員發言"},{"start":12306.716,"end":12324.435,"text":"主席秘書長委員好今天要就教秘書長這個實在是比較抱歉這是立法院的一些家醜讓你們看到因為這個委員會這樣的設置是很離譜的這個是矮化整個國會不能這樣辦"},{"start":12329.244,"end":12353.854,"text":"第一個對於這個人權法案的部分這個我們有提出了三案基本上這三案是基於憲法法庭判決以後我們所有包括在刑事訴訟法要做部分修正條文這個司法院所提出來的我們都敬表尊重那另外就是第4案的部分"},{"start":12355.302,"end":12355.882,"text":"司法改革的滿一度"},{"start":12379.989,"end":12404.979,"text":"雖然司法院現在真的成績相當好了滿意度已經到三成了30.04雖然不滿意有四成八不過以前從不滿意度六七成現在降到四成八司法還是有在進步啦再來我們對法官的滿意度可以看一下現在不滿意度是52.2%"},{"start":12408.181,"end":12433.233,"text":"滿意度是32.7這個可能跟司法院就有關係跟司法院有關係再過來台灣的司法是否公正這個就很嚴重了這個不公正的比例佔55%不過公正的比例有35%我想一方面"},{"start":12434.332,"end":12459.854,"text":"我們的司法公信力確實有逐步在提升但是民眾對司法的不信任還是高達5乘5、5乘6這我想司法院還要再加一把勁那司法不公正的原因也可以看一下包括法官亂判35.3司法對有權有勢的人"},{"start":12460.959,"end":12482.448,"text":"有力20.8%政治力介入16.5%等等等等大概前面主要三項是在這個部分所以呢在這裡請我們司法院的各位同仁可能要了解這是全民的觀感有高達這個將近"},{"start":12486.544,"end":12489.287,"text":"在看檢察官是否有受到政治力的影響這個是這個成績啊"},{"start":12510.342,"end":12531.68,"text":"真的我們不管是法務部還是司法院可能要嚴格正視這個問題認為一定會政治力一定介入檢察官而受到影響有38.1可能會有46.6所以這加起來是8成將近8成5"},{"start":12535.396,"end":12564.659,"text":"所以在這個部分為什麼我們的司法越改民眾的疑慮越高在這個區塊的部分是不是請下一次本委員會召委下次有機會的話我們還是要排司法院就這個司改的部分來做報告所以希望秘書長下次我們再來的時候"},{"start":12565.419,"end":12565.579,"text":"本席"},{"start":12590.689,"end":12620.172,"text":"司法院所提出組織法第4項的部分要增加司法事務官還有檢察官助理的這個部分可能上一屆可能上一屆的委員有表達相當多的意見但是這一屆的委員可能看法不見得趨於一致就像光這一點我希望設置你主改的部分這個組織法要修正的部分我們一定要做充分的溝通"},{"start":12621.425,"end":12623.446,"text":"檢察事務官 缺額230人 增加檢察官助理"},{"start":12638.922,"end":12666.09,"text":"那我們的書記官目前缺有還有140人是我們的司法界讓大家要留在這個原有單位在法界是不是大家開始興趣缺缺是不是跟這些數字都有關係雞生蛋蛋生雞這社會的一個集體的一個氛圍請這個秘書長能夠提出相關的應對的事情不過在這裡特別提醒"},{"start":12667.355,"end":12690.027,"text":"我們檢察事務官有這麼高的缺額都沒有補那現在還要來要600個元額這是我們非常好奇的一件事情那當然剛剛我們西龍界委員也提到相關的疑問是不是檢察官在法務部在要求增加檢察官助理的時候我們司法院也希望增加司法事務官"},{"start":12691.755,"end":12719.263,"text":"基本上要增加這些原額大原則對於台灣的司法品質有提升本席都不反對但我要特別強調的是司法院法官的職權違和他是負責聽訟由檢辯雙方根據所掌握的證據要調查的證據來做明確的攻防法官是以聽訟為主"},{"start":12721.287,"end":12748.484,"text":"現在不管是增加了現在新的犯罪形態亦或者是這個很多在過去的六法全書裡沒有看到的東西現在出來了秘書長我們可以讓法官做集體的培訓但是不是增加司法事務官原因是什麼我們法官是聽眾為主不是協助調查"},{"start":12750.387,"end":12779.306,"text":"要協助調查現在對我們的法官成為檢察官助理啊那這樣我們的檢察官的品質會更差如果都要由法院來協助檢察官來做證據的補證來做所有的法官成為檢察官助理那我們的司法品質要如何提升如果不是胡亂起訴為什麼在法院還要有"},{"start":12780.273,"end":12805.129,"text":"法官增加這個司法事務官幫檢察官來收證這是在我們司法界是非常荒唐的一件事情再過來檢察官助理光檢察官的檢察事務官有這麼高的缺額沒補現在還要增加檢察官助理其實本席這個也大概跟這個"},{"start":12807.608,"end":12834.758,"text":"秘書長有討論過我們再強調一次臺灣的起訴是不是過分腐爛還有太多的因素介入為什麼我們檢察官今天指揮刑事警察局指揮調查局指揮廉政署這都是很專業的單位指揮這麼多的單位來協助檢察官辦案他的移送書他的報告書"},{"start":12836.633,"end":12864.477,"text":"難道都還有問題嗎還要檢察官來募集這麼多的檢察事務官或是檢察官助理再來重新整理資料重新來辦案這樣子的話是不是調查局移送的資料並不完整還是報告寫得不周詳還是刑事警察局目前素質還沒有趕上非到檢察官自己啊來調整整體的辦案品質"},{"start":12868.052,"end":12895.626,"text":"本席很好奇如果並不是這樣的話應該在法院跟檢察官的部分對於所謂新生的一些犯罪形態我們可以來上課做專業的提升但是在辦案單位也可以做專業的提升但是本席認為不管是司法事務官也好還是檢察官助理也好應該要正本清源還是要回到調查單位"},{"start":12896.718,"end":12923.54,"text":"調查單位就包括行事警察局還有包括警政署還有包括聯政署還有包括法務部調查局這些員額不夠要增加本席強烈支持專業不夠要怎麼樣去培訓我們也支持但是不要變成檢察官跟法官來做一個調查的助理檢察官"},{"start":12924.698,"end":12949.527,"text":"應該是指揮辦案然後指揮下屬這些單位辦案完成之後做一個完整的起訴提升我們司法品質所以本席的建議是應該要先把檢察事務官先補齊以後法定人員先補齊以後再來考慮檢察官助理的問題可能會更周詳也更有正當性好 謝謝"},{"start":12950.828,"end":12951.288,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12978.97,"end":12979.591,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13004.147,"end":13004.547,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13032.077,"end":13032.417,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13063.5,"end":13065.622,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13268.581,"end":13268.781,"text":"吳宗憲委員"},{"start":13281.764,"end":13298.261,"text":"我先提一個很簡單的東西就是因為我自己在當檢察官的時候我對一個東西我一直長期都有一點想法但是因為基於這個審判獨立我們要給予完全的尊重"},{"start":13298.982,"end":13299.222,"text":"主席"},{"start":13320.107,"end":13347.958,"text":"施行好像沒有成功我想要提的就是因為最近有很多這種詐騙案件那剛剛別的委員也有提到就是詐騙案件過輕的這個審判這個刑度都過輕的問題但是我也知道因為這個原因其實導映於幾乎所有的被告都是都是車手或者是人頭賬戶所以本來對於車手或人頭賬戶他的量刑就"},{"start":13348.638,"end":13350.419,"text":"司法院秘書長列席"},{"start":13365.243,"end":13390.23,"text":"因為我常常看到報紙什麼都有寫這一塊但是他並不會一個平衡的去說這個那這個會不會也導致的民眾對於司法的信任度降低尤其現在詐欺案件是民怨第一名那如果我們對於民怨第一名的案件都讓人們有那麼多在量刑上面的質疑的話我想可能對司法的信任度也是會有一點影響那這部分可能就麻煩"},{"start":13391.11,"end":13399.596,"text":"法官的習慣都是從最低型度開始往上加加一個月兩個月當然有一些法官他可能正義感爆棚他就是會重判但是通常二審都不會支持他"},{"start":13419.051,"end":13445.794,"text":"那這一塊可能也是要麻煩你們能夠注意一下那再來還有一個是我自己當檢察官的時候最痛苦的一個點就是承認跟否認的行度真的太近了那我們看一些其他國家的例子其實他們把承認跟否認他的行度拉得非常大他不要讓一般人他有這個有這個僥倖說我可以去否認然後反正否認到最後"},{"start":13446.815,"end":13447.515,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13467.603,"end":13495.655,"text":"那法官也是一樣他在檢察官那邊認了他到一審那邊又開始開始翻那一樣法官也辛苦公訴檢察官也辛苦那法官的判決書再寫起來又更長了所以如果我們一直總是實務上面把承認跟否認的刑度都那麼近我個人覺得是在找我們自己的麻煩那承認跟否認你把刑度拉大我覺得這個在法理上面也沒有任何的問題所以是不是"},{"start":13497.328,"end":13522.197,"text":"我是說我畢竟我是檢方出身的我絕對尊重那個司法的獨立審判我不會說命令要求怎麼樣法官一定要怎麼做我們完全尊重但是我們真的呼籲能夠把承認跟否認的刑度要把它拉開來不要讓一些犯罪的人有機可乘嘛能夠僥倖你今天如果你犯罪了你敢跟我否認那"},{"start":13523.777,"end":13543.263,"text":"將來你面對的可能就是一個比較重的刑度 這個再麻煩各位司法院的同仁能夠宣導一下這一塊在我今天想要請教秘書長秘書長你知道我們全台灣現在最大的律師事務所是哪一間你知道嗎"},{"start":13545.348,"end":13546.889,"text":"立法院秘書長列席"},{"start":13564.892,"end":13589.531,"text":"所以說我看了一下一個數據就是從113年其實我們的預算又比前一年度又增加很多所以我們113年的這個預算已經到快15億了那也就是說當然啦我們知道法服它的成立是它的重點其實是對於一些無資歷者我們希望他在法庭訴訟上面能夠得到足夠的保障"},{"start":13590.211,"end":13612.174,"text":"但是呢我們花那麼多錢那我們到底有沒有做到這樣的效果那我這邊目前找的到的數據大概是111年還有到112年的某些月份那是不是能夠麻煩司法院呢能夠就法服的這個成效還有一些相關的數據能夠提供給我們辦公室"},{"start":13612.935,"end":13616.539,"text":"法服無需審查之力就准許提供法服服務的案件目前如果依照我手上的數據來看"},{"start":13635.399,"end":13642.112,"text":"到111年是合準是到66.46也就是說如果我們往前面從104年到111年來看平均是62.5"},{"start":13647.349,"end":13647.569,"text":"中低收入戶"},{"start":13665.696,"end":13692.287,"text":"在那個重罪重罪的強制辯護案件裡面是不是裡面有穿插了很多其實他是有足夠資歷的然後我們卻浪費了我們這個這個司法資源去提供因為畢竟法服他主要的資金來源是司法院的捐助那基金會如果說主要司法院的捐助那這些錢是全民的錢那全民的錢我想說在使用上面"},{"start":13692.927,"end":13693.207,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":13704.318,"end":13706.419,"text":"在一個月內提供我們一些資料有沒有必要修法或做怎麼樣的篩選"},{"start":13734.111,"end":13739.576,"text":"在一個月內能夠給我們一個資料說明這個報告可不可以可以嗎"},{"start":13743.864,"end":13762.032,"text":"跟針對剛剛委員關注的這個部分關強制辯護的部分我這邊有個簡單的一些數據簡單先跟委員做一個口頭的說明大概我們從我們這個看這個法福基金會111年度的年度報告書裡面大概准與輔助的一般案件總共是56718件"},{"start":13764.153,"end":13766.896,"text":"那其中強制辯護案件是17166件大概是佔30.27%那其中受扶助人是中低收入戶的總共是11172件大概佔19.70%那受扶助人他是屬於身心障礙的話"},{"start":13783.875,"end":13786.578,"text":"是9916件大概是佔17.48%那這一些類型大概比較可能會被認定是經濟上或社會上的弱勢族群那所以就是而且是法律上規定應該給予這個這個強制辯護的案件那另外針對這個"},{"start":13804.395,"end":13815.242,"text":"其他的強制辯護的部分我們其實有考慮到國家的資源有限所以我們已經司法院已經有含請各法院在辦理形式強制辯護案件的時候希望能夠初步的先審查一下當事人的資歷狀況如果認為需要轉介法服的話再轉介給法服不然的話就盡量指定公辯或者是異辯來做辦理"},{"start":13828.391,"end":13853.218,"text":"這是目前辦理的狀況先跟委員報告那這部分就還是麻煩一下你們能夠提供我們資料那再來就是說其實不是只有這個重罪啦像什麼107年1月1號我們不是有實施這個家庭強制辯護嗎其實這個又讓這個法服的案件量又再擴增所以說這從法服90幾年開始到現在應該是90幾年嘛"},{"start":13858.079,"end":13858.62,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13876.781,"end":13890.897,"text":"的情況下到底有沒有辦法達到一個效果我覺得這是我們在懷疑的所以說我們希望說就篩選的部分能夠更加仔細一點那另外就是說還有一個就是"},{"start":13891.898,"end":13908.8,"text":"從來有很多案子接受法服之後突然又說他不需要了所以說在我手上的數據從105年到111年放棄律師陪偵的比例快七成如果原住民的話甚至到九成"},{"start":13909.481,"end":13913.523,"text":"最後一點時間我想跟各位提一個就是國民法官的制度當然我知道這個是蔡英文政府"},{"start":13930.251,"end":13945.697,"text":"上任之後積極推動的但是這個東西到底有沒有意義對國家有沒有意義其實我當檢察官的時候我心裡一直在存疑到底這個只是一個政治上面的操作還是說真正能夠讓人民開始去信任司法"},{"start":13947.538,"end":13966.623,"text":"國民法官的制度好或不好我現在就先不論但是我想跟各位討論的就是說為了因應這個國民法官的制度檢方都是派出第一流的人才我不知道各位知不知道這件事情所以通常都是很好的主任檢察官甚至在公訴非常強的我們會派去做國民法官的法庭"},{"start":13967.763,"end":13988.753,"text":"尤其是他們在審理通常都是重大案件那檢方是這麼強大的戰力的情況下那律師呢因為我們現在那個法服他最高酬金只有七萬五千塊那以我我爸爸也是律師啊以我對於律師收酬金的瞭解這個錢根本請不到"},{"start":13989.938,"end":14008.649,"text":"請不到怎麼樣就是這個錢然後再去面對這種重大案件你說叫一個律師來去做這個事情其實這個從那個經濟理性上面來看是違反的所以這一塊可能也是要麻煩各位能夠看能不能夠做一個研究這到底是怎麼要怎麼處理"},{"start":14011.09,"end":14034.228,"text":"是不是說設置這種什麼國民法官的這種那種法服的這種專職團隊還是公設辯護人那因為你先搞這個制度出來這個制度到底好不好對國家好不好你也搞不清楚因為當初並沒有做審慎的評估就貿然的推啦對於我看很多國家他們的法庭制度的更改都是非常長時間的研究之後才敢去推"},{"start":14034.668,"end":14057.662,"text":"但是我們這邊是隨便開個那個什麼什麼施改會議幾個月然後就搞定什麼全台灣的司法各位都是法律專家我不敢說我是法律專家各位一定是你們一定很清楚這樣的改法到底在改到底是真的在改還是假的在改我想大家心裡都有一把尺但是不管怎麼樣這個制度已經出來了那我們現在要怎麼辦去因應這個問題"},{"start":14059.463,"end":14081.501,"text":"你不能用非常少的錢去請一個律師然後去幫這些人去你說這個叫法服這個我覺得這只是應付而已這不是真正的一個社會救助的制度好那這一塊也麻煩你們能夠研究看看能不能給我們一些數據或資料那這大概需要多久的時間是"},{"start":14087.081,"end":14102.051,"text":"委員好 剛剛您針對這個國民法服關於國法案件的一個辯護的部分你有提出一些關注的意見那這部分其實我們目前已經在做的簡單先跟您報告那針對這個專職律師的部分我們認為說可能需要檢討專職律師目前"},{"start":14107.055,"end":14111.298,"text":"他其實他是主要是要以懲辦訴訟案件為主那我們會檢討目前基金會對於專職律師的運用上是不是有可以更集中讓他們來專注於訴訟案件那也可以我們現在目前已經歸根法輔基金會有討論那法輔基金會這邊他們有同意說在113年會成立一個刑事辯護中心的一個任務編組"},{"start":14130.902,"end":14149.885,"text":"那這個編組的成員呢主要就是由專家學者以及富有形式辯護經驗的律師來組成那他們也可以參與辯護以及甚至做一些經驗傳承的工作那另外在114年我們規劃要成立形式辯護中心那希望由專職律師來加入成為種子然後結合"},{"start":14150.405,"end":14150.525,"text":"麻煩拜託"},{"start":14169.952,"end":14170.192,"text":"吳宗憲委員"},{"start":14199.886,"end":14204.608,"text":"主席 各位委員 秘書長好 還有我們司法院的所有的官員"},{"start":14218.431,"end":14242.572,"text":"這個是一個花蓮地方刑事判決這個看一下這個已經幾年前的一個判決書這裏面特別提到這個被告違反山坡地百味利用條例的案件這裏面主文犯山坡地百味利用條例第34條第一項之"},{"start":14246.801,"end":14273.384,"text":"非法懇職罪除有期徒刑6個月而亦可罰金這裏面最主要就是說違反犯罪的事實違反這個土地業經行政院公告為山坡地保育用條例所稱之山坡地我們看這個"},{"start":14277.085,"end":14289.201,"text":"山坡地百會利用條例第3條本條例所稱山坡地是要經過行政院核定公告之公私有土地很清楚"},{"start":14295.572,"end":14301.354,"text":"公有或私人他人散播地不得擅自懇職佔用違反第1項違反第4條規定有期徒刑及併科罰金隨度保持法"},{"start":14316.323,"end":14343.249,"text":"很重要的一點山坡地保育區不等於山坡地山坡地保育區不等於山坡地區計劃法第11條山坡地保育區他有這些定義有這個定義好我們看了這個案子"},{"start":14344.366,"end":14370.659,"text":"被判有期徒刑的案子他是花蓮縣萬榮鄉紅葉段1457地號按照行政院農委會當時的水土保持局這個並不是山坡地並不是山坡地另外一筆土地紅葉段1457之18地號"},{"start":14374.646,"end":14398.935,"text":"也行政院未核定公告為三波地所以這個判決是錯誤的判決一般當然他可以上訴但是因為這個八十幾歲的老先生八十幾歲的老先生殺其萊雅族"},{"start":14401.069,"end":14428.504,"text":"他從小就在這個土地上耕種使用而且他又是原住民保留地因為不同鄉住在鄉因為是另外一個萬隆鄉他住是住在瑞穗鄉他是隔壁所以他也不知道要申請保留這就是祖先留下來的土地就繼續使用了然後就被隔壁的瑞穗瑞穗農場"},{"start":14432.063,"end":14435.205,"text":"立法院委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14463.093,"end":14487.908,"text":"現在是怎樣你現在上網還在所以這個人的一生的清白他的子女人家一上網一查他的父母親怎麼樣就是有行者的人所以第一個要解決的是什麼一直沒有解決他人死了沒有辦法上訴對不對我們說他的子女可不可以"},{"start":14489.875,"end":14490.836,"text":"律師律師律師律師律師律師律師律"},{"start":14522.403,"end":14530.825,"text":"我之前也問過你們的副秘書長 可不可以不要上網 現在上網還在喔他說回去演繹啊 演繹到現在啊 現在上網還在"},{"start":14548.274,"end":14552.917,"text":"原住民族基本法第20條政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利山坡地百貨運動條例37條"},{"start":14574.46,"end":14601.808,"text":"山坡地範圍內沿住民保留地．除議法不得事由外．應輔導沿住民．取得成租權．或無償取得所有錢。．無論是沿基法．或是山坡地保育令條例．說寫得非常明確．但是因為基層的．或是中央的．縣的一直沒有做得很好．所以很多我剛講的案例．"},{"start":14604.073,"end":14618.328,"text":"他從小在那邊工作80幾歲工作到後來被判刑就是因為沒有輔導他起的所有錢他已經是原住民保留地"},{"start":14622.216,"end":14650.334,"text":"我們也有所謂的增化編原住民保留地如果一般的國有土地符合這個原基法或是增化編保留地的條件他可以去增編原住民保留地拿到所有錢但是這個工作辦了幾十年了始終沒有辦完了還很多案子所以我之前有特別希望我們這個司法院"},{"start":14656.714,"end":14682.892,"text":"司法院能夠做做一個統一解釋什麼叫統一解釋就是說希望說只要涉及到這個我們人民可以證明說他這個祖先留下來的土地現在正在辦正在辦理真化邊連住民把留地的過程當中"},{"start":14684.741,"end":14708.844,"text":"他如果被相關的機關提起訴訟的時候是不是可以暫緩暫緩審查先讓他走完行政流程因為行政流程很長從鄉鎮公所去申請保留地"},{"start":14710.285,"end":14739.211,"text":"或是所有錢然後還要經過縣政府縣政府還要送到工廠管理機關工廠管理機關還要送到研明會研明會還要報行政院那個程序非常的冗長在這麼冗長的過程當中是不是可以如果有這樣的案件被移送的時候能夠暫緩等整個行政流程完了之後再處理這個部分呢"},{"start":14741.894,"end":14762.66,"text":"你沒有做過開會討論才否定說否定說就是說可以先不判刑簡單講就一般的說法就先不要判但是沒有做處理不宜討論了"},{"start":14767.752,"end":14768.192,"text":"再提法律問題"},{"start":14796.929,"end":14797.89,"text":"林佩祥委員洪孟楷委員楊瓊英委員"},{"start":14825.549,"end":14826.75,"text":"政政前委員蔡奕瑜委員"},{"start":14842.759,"end":14845.14,"text":"張家俊委員何新淳委員黃珊珊委員"},{"start":14868.6,"end":14889.252,"text":"秘書長我想請問一下我們的債務清理條例大概是民國95年通過的那這幾年其實已經從95年到現在已經將近18年目前法院司法院對於債清條例它的成效還有現在執行的狀況您的看法是什麼我們請民視聽那個周庭長"},{"start":14895.917,"end":14909.603,"text":"關於我們目前債務清理條例的那個申請事件跟裁定准許的比例數量應該少很多了吧其實有在下降"},{"start":14911.024,"end":14933.319,"text":"但是現在有一些新興的所謂15年來大概我們的內容在境條例其實沒有太多的修正幾乎沒有對於新的狀況做一些調整這邊我想跟秘書長分享就是說現在台灣其實最大的影子銀行你知道是誰嗎"},{"start":14936.444,"end":14960.152,"text":"印資銀行非金融機構其實都在做債務的融資甚至出令對吧融資公司有6000多家有三大家融資出令公司資產非常的龐大但是他們都在債清條例之外對吧目前為止他不是用債清條例嗎"},{"start":14962.214,"end":14989.183,"text":"這個部分我想是用債清條例不曉得委員關心的是不是所謂他的金融機構的定義的大小的問題是的沒錯因為我們以前的卡債主要是立法的時候是針對銀行尤其是當時信用卡的卡債然後他可能是沒有擔保所以他有一些所謂的信用上面的風險而且在銀行應該要告知或者是對於利率還有負擔"},{"start":14990.723,"end":15019.087,"text":"但是經過十多年銀行被管得很嚴可是外面的融資越來越多大家看過一個影片叫做山道猴子的醫生嗎免頭款全貸款還可以再超貸去一筆錢去改裝所以很多的年輕人幾乎就是掉到這個陷阱裡面那最嚴重的看到很多的民間的新聞好了"},{"start":15019.807,"end":15044.006,"text":"有人去買了一台休旅車貸款90萬後來錢不夠呢融資公司又打來行銷你還可以再轉貸變貸147萬也就是這些融資公司他是用行銷促銷的方式讓借錢的人借更多的錢負擔更多的債但是他又不受到你們原來債券條例的規範"},{"start":15045.367,"end":15045.447,"text":"主席"},{"start":15057.692,"end":15081.43,"text":"跟委員報告就是關於這個剛剛委員提到兩個問題就是我們的金融管理融資公司這些其實他在債務經理條例他是債權人的地位那麼其實債權人的地位這些金融融資公司好了或者我們一般的資產管理公司"},{"start":15082.631,"end":15088.836,"text":"雖然不能像銀行那樣去召開所謂債權人的協商會議但其實就債務人來適用這個消債條例其實是沒有影響的"},{"start":15110.563,"end":15127.982,"text":"司法院在97年有辦理一個消費者債務清理事件應注意事項對於金融機構的定義是要主管機關認定所以這些目前我剛剛才問了金管會他們不認為這是他們管的人"},{"start":15128.871,"end":15130.012,"text":"金融機關的定義是去參考金融合併法然後設定這幾個金融機關"},{"start":15144.925,"end":15146.367,"text":"像中租公司這些這麼大的融資註定公司還不夠大嗎"},{"start":15162.037,"end":15186.802,"text":"主要是中租公司我是說類似啦我沒有什麼意見我只是說15年了這個機制該修正就要修第二個這些人他們的狀況已經超過當年的卡債規模跟數量都已經比卡債有過之而無不及了第三現在幾乎人手都可以收到任何的簡訊說你可以來借錢"},{"start":15189.162,"end":15213.249,"text":"所以非常多的年輕人就用這個方式去借了更多的錢然後再輕條例又不能適用造成我們不管是對於打詐也好對於投資詐騙也好對於這種融資公司利用合法掩護他賺取暴利的這種行為也好其實司法院只要改你的這個注意事項就可以了"},{"start":15213.969,"end":15237.876,"text":"如果可能的話,這個案子上一屆的江永清委員其實也問過,你們說要研議,研議到現在有答案了嗎?金融機構的部分我們會再考慮,但剛剛委員提到第二個問題,第二個問題是比較,就是說跟一般社會大眾比較有關係的,就是超過擔保價值以外,無擔保的"},{"start":15240.257,"end":15240.358,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":15257.421,"end":15285.453,"text":"假裝而已啦 假裝看不見那我跟委員報告所以司法院可以先檢討這個部分嗎去年說要研議到現在還沒有給答案這個部分是可以用的這是我一直想跟委員報告那請給我一個正式的書面告訴大家可以用讓法院可以受理我們也可以去一般消費者也可以去申訴也就是超過擔保物價值的無擔保在物還是有在清條例的適用這個是確定的"},{"start":15286.894,"end":15287.014,"text":"可以嗎?"},{"start":15308.661,"end":15328.467,"text":"我的意思就是說不要讓這種明明就存在我們假裝沒看見然後讓它不斷地做大將來就跟當年放任卡債一樣台灣政府現在是放任影子銀行做大的最大的幫兇"},{"start":15329.927,"end":15357.44,"text":"金管會不管司法院這邊就是等著看所以大家都不管融資租賃公司變成畫外之地第二個他們的資產已經大到不能倒他們大到資產三家公司加起來已經1.5兆了他們的應收賬款就有1兆然後呆帳可以有上百億表示我們有多少人是在這上面受到很大的衝擊如果我們要導正"},{"start":15359.121,"end":15359.261,"text":"有號委員有號委員有號委員"},{"start":15387.691,"end":15388.371,"text":"嚴寬衡委員賴氏寶委員"},{"start":15406.414,"end":15426.6,"text":"今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢,詢答結束了委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料,再麻煩以書面：或者是書面答覆的再請司法院這邊能夠緊述送交個別委員還有本會"},{"start":15428.407,"end":15432.229,"text":"今天的本次會議就到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":15468.07,"end":15468.711,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15688","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15688","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea471ce9aeb73a155cea5b031af9c32cfd3be8d109af184be498943cc8dfdf00cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-04","start_time":"2024-03-04T08:30:44+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-04T15:23:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":24736,"委員發言時間":"08:30:44 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PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":1872.83,"end":1889.458,"text":"好,我們現在開會請主任律師報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員14人以主法定人數我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議紀錄來,我們先確定一下上次會議的意思錄請律師宣讀"},{"start":1896.261,"end":1901.306,"text":"時間113年2月29日星期四上午9時12分至9時25分地點紅龍202會議室出席委員、王委會委員等14人主席張委員紅綠報告事項請委員參閱選舉事項選舉第11屆第1會期本會召集委員2人"},{"start":1918.039,"end":1919.08,"text":"好,上次會議預示錄有沒有錯誤或者遺漏的?"},{"start":1948.438,"end":1955.907,"text":"聽不到我們麻煩一下好不好在場的在場的在場的議事人員請維持一下現在現場我們的這個現場的次序"},{"start":1967.6,"end":1989.471,"text":"我們麻煩一下我們請媒體媒體朋友們維持一下我們開會的順序次序然後我們請我們的這個委員們對安靜然後請我們的媒體朋友維持一下現場委員會的次序好"},{"start":1994.875,"end":2021.925,"text":"好,上次的會議意思錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏的地方?好,意思錄確定了然後呢,我們現在繼續好像是有程序發言人要發言,是嗎?好,我們現在這個程序發言你們可以來登記繼續進行本日議程報告事項,請宣讀"},{"start":2024.881,"end":2037.109,"text":"報告事項邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就:「金門撞船執法過程及後續處理、進行專題報告．並備質詢。」宣讀完畢"},{"start":2052.939,"end":2067.531,"text":"好 宣讀完畢了 今天我們的議程就是按照我們委員會初期的專案報告的名稱所以呢 以上已經確定我們現在呢 你們要程序問題 沒問題我會讓你們程序發言好不好"},{"start":2071.073,"end":2071.093,"text":"請簽名"},{"start":2126.324,"end":2145.042,"text":"好 主席現在宣佈 主席現在宣佈 請安靜主席現在要宣佈一下 我們請大家聽一下好不好 現場的委員們 主席在這邊宣佈一下"},{"start":2146.503,"end":2153.495,"text":"我們今天程序委員會裡面的簽名我們就按照內政委員會今天先來順序的先後來發言好不好謝謝"},{"start":2171.056,"end":2185.385,"text":"主席,我剛剛已經宣告了,如果大家有意見的話,請大家安靜,因為你們現在這麼吵,我聽不到。"},{"start":2190.263,"end":2204.106,"text":"請安靜一下好不好謝謝請各位委員尊重一下召委的發言因為你們現在太吵我沒有辦法來繼續我來維持這個開會的順序還有我的結論如果大家有意見的話是不是這樣子我們就才表決我們內政委員會裡面的委員們來表決我們程序的發言好不好"},{"start":2217.449,"end":2229.601,"text":"謝謝,好,我們請現在維持大家回到位置上,好嗎?可以嗎?可以可以,謝謝,我已經做這樣子的才事了,請大家回去,好嗎?謝謝,謝謝"},{"start":2233.272,"end":2238.837,"text":"請回到位置上來表決我們現在開始來清查內政委員會的委員"},{"start":2283.407,"end":2294.331,"text":"好 我們請議事委員來清點一下內政委員會的人數我們來進行表決 謝謝 謝謝好 非常謝謝委員的尊重 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":2331.72,"end":2358.106,"text":"好,巧會委員等一下不好意思不好意思請大家安靜好吧你們沒有安靜我講話大家都聽不清楚好,基於召委非常理性的來這裡維持會議的順暢我們也接受這個巧會委員還有惠美委員您的建議我們就用我們內政委員會的委員"},{"start":2359.326,"end":2360.707,"text":"但是我們希望的時間不要太長以內政委員會的委員來做程序發言"},{"start":2407.478,"end":2436.538,"text":"我覺得國民黨團跟民進黨團你們自己先討論一下誰排第一位然後如果願意接受我的建議的話因為民眾黨只有一席我們是不是先第一位尊重民眾黨的委員好不好讓麥義堅委員先來做程序發言除非他放棄他的程序發言好不好"},{"start":2437.779,"end":2438.361,"text":"請尊重門議會內政委員會。謝謝!謝謝!"},{"start":2455.014,"end":2460.596,"text":"我們請議事委員維持一下現場的秩序,我們要非常的平和、順利的開會,好不好?謝謝大家,謝謝媒體朋友們,謝謝!"},{"start":2540.485,"end":2567.431,"text":"好了,我非常謝謝民進黨團的決議是說再吵下去也沒意思那麼我也尊重民進黨團的委員們那我們為了讓今天的會議非常順利可以進行誰第一個做程序發言就是三個黨團來抽籤好不好我覺得這是最平和的好,招我做這樣的決議麻煩一下做籤然後誰做第一位程序發言"},{"start":2586.038,"end":2589.08,"text":"好,各位黨團,你們要偷派哪一位來抽籤,謝謝"},{"start":2608.134,"end":2614.511,"text":"好的,我們請媒體朋友們,你們請回座一下,這樣我們真的很難開會,請維持現場的次序,好嗎?謝謝!"},{"start":2707.385,"end":2710.866,"text":"我們現在開始我們的程序發言然後請我們的媒體朋友們請回座謝謝"},{"start":2752.154,"end":2775.106,"text":"我們的程序發言時間我們定為3分鐘好不好謝謝大家不好意思我們是不是請其他委員先把位置讓給我們的內政委員會好不好還是我們請議事人員多拿幾張椅子進來好不好"},{"start":2779.124,"end":2793.047,"text":"好 謝謝我們請媒體朋友維持一下我們現場的秩序然後要讓我們的委員們能順利的上台做程序發言好嗎 謝謝 謝謝我已經請議事人員去準備椅子了 謝謝"},{"start":2841.886,"end":2858.896,"text":"好了,我們現在開始我們的程序發言。我們請第一位登記的委員,麥義堅委員,請發言。時間是3分鐘,然後我們請媒體朋友們,請離開一下我們的這個發言台,好不好?"},{"start":2859.936,"end":2868.521,"text":"請我們的議事人員維持一下現場的次序請媒體朋友們謝謝你們張偉在這邊謝謝你們的關心這個議題真的是非常的重要所以我們必須要讓我們的議會非常順利的進行所以請媒體朋友們是不是回到你們的位置上然後把我們的質詢台讓給我們的委員做程序發言"},{"start":2887.313,"end":2889.794,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位媒體朋友、大家早安今天我們是要討論的"},{"start":2912.888,"end":2934.079,"text":"好,我們請...對不起,那議政委員...議政委員先暫停一下我們是不是先暫停一下我們現場的媒體朋友們麻煩一下你們如果一直在我們的質詢台上這個是會妨礙我們所有的委員在這邊進行他的質詢跟程序委員的發言,好嗎?謝謝媒體朋友們,謝謝你們,辛苦你們請議事委員,來"},{"start":2944.485,"end":2968.379,"text":"我們把這個諮詢台清理乾淨了以後,我們再請委員發言。我們重新開始,好吧?重新開始計時。好,非常謝謝。對,後面的媒體朋友們,因為你們如果在前面的話,後面的媒體朋友是拍不到的。我們請議事人員。"},{"start":2970.605,"end":2971.246,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2994.348,"end":3009.202,"text":"麻煩你們去 麻煩 因為後面的人在抗議所以麻煩前面的媒體朋友們 因為他們拍不到麻煩一下我們請議事人員處理再處理一下 謝謝"},{"start":3021.806,"end":3028.932,"text":"謝謝主席、各位委員、各位記者、大家早安我是覺得今天我們是要來處理問題、解決問題的所以我們請大家尊重我們的會議的程序還有我們各個"},{"start":3049.167,"end":3056.15,"text":"報告還有我們委員的發言還有我們主席的決定的話希望大家都要尊重準時要開會不要為了這一個就是聲量啊媒體一直在這樣子去吵下去我們開到明天也開不完謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":3068.815,"end":3077.27,"text":"好 謝謝議長委員簡單有力的發言好 繼續我們請這個新委員做程序發言時間是3分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":3087.899,"end":3099.895,"text":"主席、各位委員、在場的媒體大家好我們今天程序發言最重要我們是要譴責我們海委會的管組委"},{"start":3101.355,"end":3129.818,"text":"苗氏國會篡改我們召委所定的內政委員會專案報告的題目我們的陸委會的報告是沒有題目的報告這個海委會的篡改題目陸委會的報告可以沒有題目所以我們在這裡要求我們的管主委還有我們的邱主委要道歉"},{"start":3130.578,"end":3143.54,"text":"首先第一個民進黨執政的官員藐視這個我們立法院的召委所定的題目擅自專改"},{"start":3145.233,"end":3160.228,"text":"而且還在臉書上嗆聲那完全的不尊重立法委員是所有民眾選出來的所以我們的管主委不尊重立法院不尊重"},{"start":3161.308,"end":3182.548,"text":"民意因為所有立法委員是民意所選出來的所以我們在這裡要譴責而且要求道歉我們要退回這個報告那在我們國會的這個開會在院會有程序委員會在我們的委員會我們由召委來訂定這個題目"},{"start":3183.729,"end":3205.924,"text":"如果管委員認為現在金門撞船案他有現在不方便講的他公開不方便講的他可以召開秘密會議如果他有覺得現在還暫時不方便的可以跟召委溝通來延緩這個專案會議的可能延後來報告"},{"start":3207.685,"end":3224.06,"text":"那不能夠這樣擅自專改擅自篡改這個題目這個是國會史上完全沒有從來沒有過的只有壓霸傲慢的執政黨現在的執政黨才敢這樣做所以我們在這裡提出"},{"start":3225.121,"end":3252.017,"text":"程序發言希望在今天專案報告之前我們要請管主委來道歉我們要請這個陸委會陸委會沒有題目也是很不尊重不尊重我們的這個召委所以在這裡我們也看到也看到我們這一次的這個金門撞船案我們希望"},{"start":3253.118,"end":3280.528,"text":"民進黨的執政不要導致兩岸情勢越來越緊張我們應該盡速的釐清事實緩和情勢我們非常相信也非常的認同我們海巡弟兄們的辛勞而且我們也支持那我們就是要請我們海委會一定要為海巡弟兄向兩岸人民說明真相"},{"start":3281.408,"end":3296.201,"text":"所以我們希望這個關主委一定要道歉我們希望道歉認錯之後我們再來正式的開會好 謝謝好 謝謝民進委繼續我們請博弈委員3分鐘發言一樣 謝謝博弈委員我我在這好 謝謝"},{"start":3311.129,"end":3313.817,"text":"主席抱歉齁,剛剛忘了先跟你鞠躬第一次來這裡發言"},{"start":3315.168,"end":3342.942,"text":"那針對這個程序委員會我想我們必須要做一個發言的就是大家可以坐在這個國會殿堂包含各位委員我們大家彼此尊重那我們會坐在這裡是因為台灣是一個民主、法治的國家什麼是法治?什麼是法治就是說我們今天不是來這裡來決定說這一個意外事件到底是怎麼發生的因為我們有我們的法治我們的金門地檢署正在偵辦中"},{"start":3344.585,"end":3363.372,"text":"我們是希望可以透過這個專案報告來釐清當天發生的事件以及來檢討未來有相關的事件我們要怎麼處理所以我們還沒有釐清當天發生的事件我們就用主觀的這個動詞做撞船我覺得這個是我們是可以大家來討論一下的"},{"start":3364.893,"end":3390.127,"text":"而事實發生的那一天確實發生了一個意外那這個意外怎麼發生的我覺得我們必須要藉由我們國會藉由那麼多媒體朋友讓全台灣的人民來知道說那一天發生了什麼事情而不是現在就告訴大家那一天是撞船撞船是我們的船撞他們的船還是他們來撞我們的船這個我們都沒有人現在目前沒有人知道嘛所以我們希望透過這一個"},{"start":3391.247,"end":3418.505,"text":"透過這個機會讓全國的人民知道那也要透過這個機會來檢討未來海巡弟兄們相關的事情我們要怎麼處理比如說沒有秘錄去或者是應該要有哪一些存證來安大家的心這個是首先對於這個撞船我們這個主觀的這個名稱撞船我們先來提出我們是不是用比較客觀的方式就是說這個意外怎麼發生的那如果結論"},{"start":3419.506,"end":3442.506,"text":"金門地檢署的報告出來起訴出來如果是我們撞船那大家可以再繼續來討論第二個我想要釐清的就是說那我們雖然是新任的委員我們也很認真做了功課萬一遇到召委所排定的這個名稱那部會沒有辦法接受或做什麼樣的調整的時候其實很多前例我舉"},{"start":3444.327,"end":3470.908,"text":"內政委員會的例子好了2015年李俊毅委員就在我們的內政委員會提出邀請大陸委員會主委王玉琦就中國透過民航組織單方面於台灣海峽西側劃線新航線這一個案子後來經過協調把這個中國的部分改成中國大陸透過民航組織這個有啊"},{"start":3472.409,"end":3474.671,"text":"好接下來2015年趙天寧委員提出日本核災五線式產品標示入境事件凸顯食品邊境把關漏洞衛福部也改了也把這個專案報告"},{"start":3488.965,"end":3515.103,"text":"改成近期重大食安事件之稽查以及後續專案報告的處理這是有的那所以說我希望我們可以就這一個名稱的部分來做相關的一個討論再讓管委員再讓陸委會最重要的是讓海巡署趕快把那天事件發生的過程釐清也讓國人知道立委不是只有知道那間的報告我們也要挺海巡署那一天到底海巡的弟兄們多辛苦謝謝"},{"start":3517.399,"end":3532.575,"text":"好,謝謝博弈委員的發言現在程序委員大家的舉例就是說只有3位委員對程序這個程序發言做一些發言那麼在發言結束之後我也有幾句話要講第一個我要確定的是"},{"start":3533.295,"end":3535.137,"text":"第二件事情我要說的是管主委也好"},{"start":3551.895,"end":3554.156,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":3576.022,"end":3597.629,"text":"侵犯立法權我必須提醒在場的委員們請尊重我們自己的職權如果這個例子一開了之後呢我們所謂的新國會就會造成很大的困擾所以呢我覺得大家我都同意今天的專題報告我們來實質的詢答希望就是有助於"},{"start":3598.189,"end":3623.191,"text":"能夠釐清事情的真相以及還原當時的事實然後讓兩岸的情勢不要這麼樣的嚴峻我想這是對全民國人的交代所以呢我報告完畢了後我們現在就開始來我們的開會我們請海洋委員會管組委我們介紹一下在場的委員還有列席的官員好嗎?謝謝"},{"start":3631.876,"end":3652.305,"text":"我來介紹一下現場的委員有許新寅委員、葉徐廷委員、丁學忠委員、張志源委員、徐宇貞委員、黃建斌委員、吳啟明召委、張宏祿委員、"},{"start":3656.929,"end":3684.756,"text":"王美惠委員、蘇巧惠委員、黃潔委員、李柏毅委員、麥玉珍委員、王鴻威委員、林倩儀委員、葛如君委員、葉元芝委員、"},{"start":3686.499,"end":3705.182,"text":"政政前委員、陳永康委員、廖偉祥委員、陳雪生委員、吳思堯幹事長、沈柏洋委員、黃仁委員"},{"start":3708.091,"end":3731.668,"text":"陳詠勳委員陳詠康也剛剛已經介紹了好,非常謝謝今天我們內政委員會所有的委員對於這一次的專案報告那麼樣的關係大家辛苦了好,我們現在來介紹一下海洋委員會的主任委員管碧玲管主委政務副主委兼海巡署的署長周梅武綜合規劃處的處長王一中"},{"start":3738.007,"end":3757.77,"text":"海域安全處處長黃軒凱海巡署副署長許靜芝巡防組組長廖雲紅情報組組長黃西章後勤組組長洪柏昇通電資訊組組長周燕雯艦隊分署分署長廖德成"},{"start":3769.008,"end":3777.496,"text":"金馬鵬分署的副分署長蔡茂岩、大陸委員會主任委員邱泰森、處長周明瑞以及國防部作戰及計劃參謀次長是聯合作戰計劃處的處長董益興、副處長李昌富"},{"start":3796.001,"end":3817.13,"text":"海軍司令部副參謀長張憲瑞海軍司令部戰備訓練處副處長羅承正現在已經介紹完了委員還有列席的官員我們就請海洋委員會的管組委畢林來報告今天的專題報告謝謝"},{"start":3827.883,"end":3828.103,"text":"主席"},{"start":3841.977,"end":3870.594,"text":"如果是3分鐘的話那我想主席各位委員在座各位同仁各位媒體朋友各位女士先生大家早安大家好今天受大院內政委員會第二次全體委員會議專題報告來自於就海洋委員會所送海巡署所做的專案進行報告"},{"start":3871.903,"end":3872.683,"text":"有關於本案面對傷亡"},{"start":3889.269,"end":3910.842,"text":"本人在第一時間的時候就指示海巡署應該安頓亡靈、設立牌位、靈堂予以祭拜．並且海巡署隨即就委請金門海運司師傅安寧送金、安置靈堂、安頓亡靈．責成海巡署人員善盡臨前祭拜．盡家屬應該要有的責任"},{"start":3912.898,"end":3936.48,"text":"我們所有的人道關懷,盡一切的努力在進行。啟動溝通以後,從家屬抵台。我們做了各種方式配合家屬的要求。兩位生還者,非常迅速地就讓他們回國。家屬要勘查、傳播,我們也都配合。啟動協商的整個過程還迅速持續。"},{"start":3937.341,"end":3960.753,"text":"以最大的誠意提供具體撫慰的方案希望給予家屬最實質跟協助的保障．結束完成善後工作這是一個三無傳播、越界捕魚海巡署執法案件整個案件有太多太多海巡署在執法過程結束之後所受到的誤解跟扭曲"},{"start":3961.733,"end":3988.093,"text":"今天只給我3分鐘我就用最重要的一個報告來跟各位報告所有的溝通我僅聲明第一我們是民主法治的國家自事發之日起以及進行後續的協商我們始終堅持事故真相必須與我國體制交由獨立公正與客觀的司法機關完成調查未來也會依照調查的結果釐清責任絕對勿忘勿忠"},{"start":3990.635,"end":4018.635,"text":"第二．我們期待優先照顧家屬．人道關懷．我方願意在事故真相調查公布前．優先給予家屬最誠摯的關懷與實質的慰問．展現我方妥善處理本案的最大誠意．在司法機關尚未完成調查以前．海巡署針對未進行收證的錄影．以致事發經過無法在第一時間呈現．除了造成家屬未能及時瞭解真相．深受煎熬等等．"},{"start":4019.756,"end":4038.145,"text":"除了我們在許副署長的公開的記者會向社會道歉本席也指派了海巡署長在家屬的上香在亡靈者的上香以及家屬的撫慰上面署長也對亡者的死亡表達了歉意"},{"start":4039.145,"end":4055.632,"text":"對於死者的遺體也好,事件的船隻也好,相關的發凡,我們也願意在完成我方司法程序以後,行政部門尊重家屬所有全人的意願,盡下水域的安全與自信,需要兩岸水域相關的共鳴,我們期待所有"},{"start":4059.233,"end":4072.664,"text":"所有的這些善意能夠被珍惜恢復今夏海域原有的寧靜我們也期待海巡兩岸執法兩岸協同執法的部分這個善的橋樑"},{"start":4074.685,"end":4102.154,"text":"不能夠在這個取締的案件發生之後被崔委的報告摧毀這一座善的橋樑我們也在您所謂的八頁裡面只有六頁裡面都提到了這些今天專案報告其實呢我們只看到六頁實在是讓召委還有在場的委員們有一點嘆息那您剛剛所報告的在您的報告裡面也說了謝謝那繼續我們請大陸委員會邱主任委員泰山做報告謝謝"},{"start":4107.262,"end":4122.77,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生我們內會曾貴恩邀請進行今天的專題報告我們以下就涉及本會的業務跟法制面提出說明第一個背景說明我想根據兩岸條例29條的規定道路的船舶非經儲管機關許可不得進入台灣地區的禁限制水域"},{"start":4130.194,"end":4151.823,"text":"另外,第32條第1項也規定說,如果未經許可進入的話,那我們的主管機關的進行驅離、扣留其船舶或物品,並且留置人員為必要的防衛組織。那在施行細則裡面也對於拒絕、授檢等等有相關的這樣的一個規定。那本案事情的發生經過,我想我就不再重述"},{"start":4153.023,"end":4168.328,"text":"本會處置的過程首先在2月15日我們就授權海基會處理陸方的家屬到金門的相關事宜當然對於發生這次的不幸事件我們也深表遺憾第二個"},{"start":4171.289,"end":4190.303,"text":"國台辦在2月17日晚上發布了一個新聞稿那這裡面當然扯到政治面的爭議也就是否認我方有所謂的禁制、禁限制水域那本會在2月18日重申上述禁限制水域的公告期間並且我們將繼續的來執法那對於國台辦的無端的指控無視於兩岸"},{"start":4193.945,"end":4208.756,"text":"各有關單位積極在調查原因後續處理,我們也深表遺憾。第三,針對中共海警局2月18日發布的常態化巡查行動本會也提醒海巡署注意中共"},{"start":4209.697,"end":4233.739,"text":"海警、越界及執法的狀況第4我們在2月19號也授權海基會通知陸方競速的提供來台名單並赴金門會同海基會、海巡署、移民署跟相關的人員附近的這個事宜那第5呢在2月25號我們也呼籲陸方能夠尊重我方的司法體制近代這個調查的這樣的一個結果以獲真相"},{"start":4234.239,"end":4256.166,"text":"那後續的處理建議呢我們第一個我們期盼全體的國人能夠支持我們在第一線執法不管是國軍警察或者是我們的海巡人員那第二個我們希望靜待司法的這個調查結果第三個我們也呼籲陸方能夠加強管理他山路的這個船舶以避免漢式的這個再度發生以上報告請進行指教"},{"start":4256.966,"end":4268.262,"text":"好,非常謝謝邱主委您在時間之內報告完畢,非常的精準好,繼續我們請國防部的董處長季欣來報告國防部今天準備的專案報告"},{"start":4276.843,"end":4304.301,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好。國防部針對大院過委員的交付專題實施簡要的報告如後。第一個,在前面部分請各位委員參閱。第二個,現行執行限制水域的執行做法。第一項部分請參閱。第二項,現行執行限制水域的執行任務是由海巡署來負責。國軍依據與海洋委員會海巡署簽署的《海上任務綜合資源協定書》來實施應援。"},{"start":4306.883,"end":4332.432,"text":"第三個,國軍運儲的原則第一項,在運儲原則部分．國軍發現中共船舶接近進入我限制禁止水域．及中共的海警船對我民用船舶從事臨檢或是洗腦時．除了依照經常戰備時期突發狀況處置規定外．以及台灣地區與大陸地區人民官司條路運取外．本不直接介入．"},{"start":4333.112,"end":4354.474,"text":"不升高衝突的原則保持監控以及協助海巡單位來應處嚴釐衝突的態樣以及處置作為部分國軍全程掌握水域的動態目前已經要求外島防衛部以及海軍嚴釐而衝突態樣以及處置的方法將納入平時的演練做好支援海巡署的準備"},{"start":4356.492,"end":4381.463,"text":"結語,因應中共的海警局在下京海域常態化的執行、巡查做法,並且運用了多批次海警船,逐步加大侵擾,增大了我的運儲處置的複雜度以及風險。國軍遵不挑釁、不示弱、不升高衝突的原則協助海巡單位運儲,以維護我主權以及海峽安全。以上報告,敬請各位委員支持及指教。謝謝"},{"start":4383.203,"end":4385.33,"text":"好 非常謝謝董處長您的報告 謝謝"},{"start":4388.595,"end":4415.528,"text":"好 現在都已經報告完畢了我們現在進行詢答委員質詢之前我們原律做幾點宣告第一個每位委員發言的時間因為大家都是充分準備而來的所以我會給你們很多時間所以本會委員10分鐘必要的時候延長2分鐘然後非本會委員10分鐘我們上午10點30分截止發言登記然後對於臨時提案截止提出時間是10點然後10點半"},{"start":4418.109,"end":4427.195,"text":"本委員會詢答完畢後我們要處理10點半我們處理臨時提案然後現在請登記第一位的委員發言我們請D學中委員發言謝謝"},{"start":4441.604,"end":4454.999,"text":"感謝我們主席總召感謝我們各位立委同仁感謝我們的主委以及邱主委、管主委以及我們海巡署、我們各位長官今天在這裡台語說話沒關係啦我們婚姻正好來"},{"start":4463.319,"end":4469.643,"text":"要請問我們這個關主委：當這個海委會的公文：要處理專訪是透過我們這個臉書的聯繫嗎?委員你是要邀請管主委嗎?我們有請管主委,謝謝委員好"},{"start":4487.466,"end":4498.788,"text":"請問館主委,我們現在海委會的公文處理全部都是透過我們臉書嗎?你私人臉書嗎?委員我了解,你想要建議我做一件事,讓我向委員報告好不好?其實那天有兩部分,一部分是在外面接受電視台訪問的時候,我有很明確表達說我接受我們立法院的監督,這是做節目的本質,我覺得我可以這樣回答"},{"start":4516.972,"end":4521.296,"text":"我們知道金門撞船的事項之前我們都在網上看到了因為這個名稱還屬於政府代表我必須要比完事了"},{"start":4541.112,"end":4546.174,"text":"這點我跟委員報告我開始了解說對教育要有尊重我從小我對話就已經有說了海巡講真話我對話就有說了我認為這是教育事務的改善海巡事務不可以私立上海巡事務不可以私立上的部分我需要彰顯一個地方我知道 我知道 沒關係 主委妳剛才講妳對話都有說出來"},{"start":4566.343,"end":4566.723,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":4588.96,"end":4598.488,"text":"所以你可以在這裡公開向我們所有委員會來向我們的召委、委員、向我們所有的立法委員、委員這樣好了?我已經都完全表達,召委也已經接受上次量查,也已經都公開但是我要跟委員報告你一定要跟召委、委員、委員,不用跟我們這裡的委員、委員要公開啊,所有的委員會來報告不用跟我們這裡的委員、委員,謝謝委員的指導,這個事情"},{"start":4614.56,"end":4615.161,"text":"管碧玲委員"},{"start":4635.92,"end":4660.355,"text":"女士、主委,她是用管閉鄰上,然後我也是用我個人高金素梅回答。對於高金素梅身為一個立法委員的其中之一員,我能夠體察諒解。但是對於其他的委員,我必不能夠替他們回覆他們是不是原諒您這樣的作為。以上來回應,謝謝。"},{"start":4662.537,"end":4667.761,"text":"委員 海巡署這件事若是去香港作為浪子的事件就好產出中國大陸民主的意圖"},{"start":4681.331,"end":4684.352,"text":"所以主委我認為你可能比較有邀約力去認定問題或來看如何解決問題你是只有將在這個交題內要來做到對"},{"start":4708.12,"end":4722.488,"text":"這很重要啊!這很重要啊!這航艇是海巡巡視的耶!海巡巡就出來了耶!這次碰撞跟撞船事件又完全不一樣喔!這次碰撞...這次碰撞...這次碰撞...這次碰撞跟撞船事件又完全不一樣喔!"},{"start":4730.413,"end":4731.934,"text":"我相信海巡署已經一直對我有表達過歉意．因為日本經濟海巡．"},{"start":4752.381,"end":4752.421,"text":"委員報告．"},{"start":4769.304,"end":4770.645,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":4797.828,"end":4798.249,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":4815.65,"end":4829.217,"text":"鄉鎮的一座城牆的四大鎮,人們他們都乾脆入侵,我們的海巡署面對的是我們所謂的敵對國,我們所謂的敵對國有可能發生到什麼程度?"},{"start":4831.118,"end":4847.304,"text":"我們海軍司的官員,既然他們要有相當的一年期的政績來懲告回來我們的上級單位,讓我們的上級單位所使有的防禦那個情況,我感覺這是最好,為什麼我們以前那些叫你幹的"},{"start":4848.544,"end":4849.585,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":4865.956,"end":4874.384,"text":"我向委員報告,我們需要90億來修理船,委員你有了解嗎?這個船需要90億來修理船,是我們來後解決的,現在已經有醫生了,提到90億的醫生,我們現在在公衛事務,現在是在公衛事務,說這艘公船輸驚,現在我們是在討論公船輸驚"},{"start":4891.52,"end":4893.261,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":4916.118,"end":4920.88,"text":"我一肩扛起到現在我一肩扛起到現在我不是一個棄居保帥的人我永遠在浪頭上面我永遠在浪頭上面我永遠在浪頭上面"},{"start":4936.187,"end":4937.047,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":4956.332,"end":4956.352,"text":"委員"},{"start":4975.598,"end":4991.909,"text":"我不會說翻船執法我不會說翻船執法我只會說日替國會的態度我會說日替國會的態度我會說翻船執法但是我先經過怎樣我們海水署大家都知道我都知道人家生意都會處理這些的工作我都知道人家生意會處理這些的工作我只會來講對說"},{"start":5005.197,"end":5020.34,"text":"你自己篡改我們這個專案報告的這個題目這個報告是海巡署呈給我的報告不是我篡改我支持海巡我支持海巡我支持海巡這樣改題目我支持海巡這樣改題目我支持海巡這樣改題目我支持海巡這樣改題目我支持海巡這樣改題目我支持海巡這樣改題目我支持海巡這樣改題目我支持海巡這樣改題目我支持海巡這樣改題目"},{"start":5029.882,"end":5031.583,"text":"我所有都公開了,我願意受指責：而且一路受指責："},{"start":5058.695,"end":5059.035,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5080.785,"end":5088.55,"text":"沒有沒有沒有,海船的概念需要你支持我希望我們希望的,大家同意這件事情在這裡我們希望的,就是我們這個管組委自行篡改專案報告的這個題目我們要求他當局的,把我們遭遇的,把我們遭遇憤怒的入獄都給毀失的我們要求我們的而已"},{"start":5108.257,"end":5114.942,"text":"其他人來這裡的內容我又要說嗎?我跟你們下去要怎樣?我尊重委員但是我所有應該表達的我已經都充分表達,感謝所以你的表達就是一種這麼傲慢非常傲慢的表達同時我非常高興拜託所有委員職執行職財財財財財你如果真的是高興你不是這個態度來運動的"},{"start":5137.25,"end":5141.996,"text":"我必須回答的太多我必須回答的太多我必須回答的太多"},{"start":5153.651,"end":5153.892,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":5175.107,"end":5189.958,"text":"你已經變形了,你自己有辦法在臉書找到你的主席,自己在臉書,你有辦法去自己創改,有專案報告的這個題目,你有沒有看出來,說你沒有接受到我們召委所提出來的題目,你就已經變形了,你已經變一種形了,往今已經把你看到你變一種形,看了看你當時的機遇,我們也要來擺一下。"},{"start":5205.168,"end":5207.011,"text":"金門撞船案 翻船執法過程及後續處理"},{"start":5220.188,"end":5241.387,"text":"那麼當時會排這個名稱我覺得撞船其實是事實檢察官也好海巡署也好你們自己都認為他是事實也是非常中性的名詞因此呢剛剛我們會議也已經宣讀了適用這個名稱好不好以上我做這樣子的補充繼續我們請徐宇貞委員做詢答謝謝"},{"start":5250.615,"end":5259.43,"text":"主席、各位同仁、各位官員、大家早。事務主席請海委會管病主委跟陸委會邱泰山主委。好,我們請管組委、邱組委。謝謝。"},{"start":5267.516,"end":5285.316,"text":"管主委還有邱主委早在這邊在詢問之前我要先表達就是針對管主委對於我們這一次的我們的專題的一個報告的名稱金門撞船案翻船執法過程跟後續的處理"},{"start":5286.797,"end":5308.562,"text":"我想館主委其實有很多的管道可以跟召委這邊溝通如果您對這樣的名稱是有意見的事實上可以直接跟召委溝通可是館主委您選擇了一個最藐視國會的方法就是在臉書直接嗆聲而且更改我們的報告的名稱所以我想這樣子藐視國會傲慢無禮"},{"start":5311.038,"end":5336.407,"text":"我想今天大家所看到的就是這樣那剛剛我想丁水中委員一直請管主委能夠對我們所有的委員尤其是內政委員會道歉但管主委還是沒有做道歉這樣一個動作那我是不是曉得說管主委他心裡想的是不是認為這樣做是對的而藐視國會也是應該的跟委員報告沒有藐視國會我還沒有請您回答不好意思謝謝"},{"start":5337.81,"end":5355.107,"text":"好,所以呢也是在詢答前本席也要強調我絕對支持海巡署守護海域、捍衛疆土取締違法進入禁止海域者依法行政是最基本的所以海巡署的同仁執行守護海域"},{"start":5355.755,"end":5373.579,"text":"執行公權力的行為是值得嘉許的只是這一次海巡署在執法的取締過程中可能會有些意外這也不是我方所願所以這一次的傳播撞船的碰撞的意外為例意外發生後海巡署2月14號、15號連續兩天的新聞稿都誤執案發的時間"},{"start":5379.66,"end":5397.545,"text":"到底這是誠實的錯誤還是刻意的隱秘?如果刻意的隱秘就是危機處理時候的大事還是這是組織基層自保的一個慣例呢?所以發生問題時我們應該是要面對問題而不是閃躲、推諉、隱秘"},{"start":5399.724,"end":5413.238,"text":"面對各界的質疑的時候更應該拿出證據回擊可惜的是臺灣號稱科技島我們卻拿不出錄影的這個資料作為證據反擊質疑海巡署一年有編列257億的預算"},{"start":5416.121,"end":5433.738,"text":"密錄器也不過就是短短的2500萬我不懂為什麼卻不能買密錄設備而且也沒有辦法在我們執法的船舶上建置360度的影像錄影兩岸的共打機制在這一次是不是有發揮效果"},{"start":5434.238,"end":5456.533,"text":"未來要避免這種狀況如何的再次發生這都是本席今天要探討的所以本席要請教管主委為什麼海巡署在取締大陸三無船舶時造成漁民落海導致兩死兩傷的悲劇金門地檢署介入調查的時候已經初步的釐清海委會海巡署在查紀的過程中確實有發生船對船的碰撞"},{"start":5460.748,"end":5467.129,"text":"所以我們現在要釐清的問題應該是海巡署在執法時候的追撞所導致的還是大陸漁船山壁覆撞所導致的會是雙方追逐而引起的差撞究竟是哪一種撞船導致漁船翻覆"},{"start":5488.593,"end":5488.633,"text":"第一點"},{"start":5510.376,"end":5529.524,"text":"海巡署不可能隱匿這件事包括說是不是有碰撞包括說有沒有錄影帶他們沒有要隱匿第一時間他們就跟檢調做了全部的報告這個是一個另外就是說這兩件事情是絕對不可能隱匿得住的"},{"start":5531.505,"end":5545.549,"text":"那現在是第一時間的說明的問題第一時間的說明的社會溝通確實有不足那我所了解以海巡署的語言跟社會語言跟委員報告社會溝通是如此但是海巡第一時間為什麼不能說碰撞是不是任何說明或者是讓首長來說明好嗎"},{"start":5560.633,"end":5565.217,"text":"以海巡署的語言登檢委員跟委員報告今天本來我們希望能夠播一個登檢的影片給大家看但是召委沒有允許"},{"start":5587.83,"end":5589.031,"text":"封建這兩個字封建這兩個字對海軍署來講封建這兩個字是啊"},{"start":5601.485,"end":5604.027,"text":"偵查院在112年7月18日就有提出調查報告．內容也指出偵搜設備．人員的配置"},{"start":5623.385,"end":5632.833,"text":"都明顯的不足,要求海防暗巡整體的規劃．人員的配置．當天密錄器是夠的．是否應該釐清改進．當天密錄器是夠的．管主委．我們會補充．等一下,你先不要急．我等一下會讓你說明．管主委,海巡署"},{"start":5638.638,"end":5666.334,"text":"海委會對於這個設備不足的問題為什麼在當時提出去年7月18號當初這樣的調查報告的時候您不即刻改善如果去年有針對這個問題改善今天海巡署取締所造成的意外就能夠迅速的釐清責任也不必變成各說各話的難堪局面所以在督導管理責任重大今天會造成這樣的局面就是你未能積極改善設備不足所造成的所以叫這次的問題所以"},{"start":5669.383,"end":5683.05,"text":"我們管主委選擇的是在臉書指責召委排案不是要平衡前面所受媒體訪問不好意思管主委我接受指責已經一再的表達但是你沒有跟我們道歉喔好"},{"start":5684.591,"end":5699.851,"text":"另外我再請教一下管主委、邱主委,針對大陸漁船越界進入金門禁制區的情況,我們有沒有透過兩岸共打機制的聯繫機制,請求大陸方面強化兩岸協同執法的質量跟密度?"},{"start":5700.712,"end":5712.826,"text":"其實在兩岸協同執法的時候共同打擊三無船過去都有案例這個本來就是兩岸的共識兩岸對於三無船的取締共識立場是一致的請問一下你這邊提供本席聯繫的時間跟對岸回覆的時間"},{"start":5718.112,"end":5733.956,"text":"我們兩岸共打我會請海巡署去了解這個部分是不是機密的數字如果不是的話當然一定提供給委員兩岸共打兩岸共打之下的協同執法是提供連續的時間跟對岸回覆的時間好不好如果沒有的話那我是不是先請邱主委先說明一下針對兩岸共打的機制是不是有大多方面的這個"},{"start":5742.738,"end":5745.08,"text":"兩岸共打基本上主管機關是法務部的國兩司他們負責這樣的一個主責"},{"start":5760.814,"end":5775.971,"text":"所以我相信那個防部呢他們大概都會有一些相關的資料可以那我大概可以跟委員報告了大概在過去這七八年呢就共打的部分呢我們大概他幫我們送回來大概40幾位的這個通緝犯"},{"start":5778.234,"end":5798.477,"text":"那我們也幫他們送回去大概12、3位的通緝犯所以基本上共打的機制還是有在做運作主委我是指這一次的案件這一次不不不我現在講你剛剛講說兩岸的共打對對對我說以這次的案件有沒有啟動兩岸共打機制這個部分是因為海巡他們又有海巡的機制恐怕署長會比我了解"},{"start":5799.451,"end":5806.819,"text":"登委員報告兩岸協同執法海巡署兩岸協同執法的對口這一次事件第一時間發生就有跟對方聯繫我們請署長說"},{"start":5814.555,"end":5839.024,"text":"如果我們現在雙方的溝通沒有結果陸方能堅持在我國所設置的禁限制海域的巡航那請問海巡署強制的做法是什麼陸方現在可以用行政船測試未來可能換成武裝船所以除了海警的巡邏也可以是海軍的戒護所以請問針對大陸不同的船舶的因應做法為何請簡短回應"},{"start":5840.866,"end":5848.372,"text":"非常謝謝委員我剛剛想跟委員先報告一個數據我把這數據給你你就知道我所講的是事實還非事實至於兩岸共同黨的戰隊跟協同．我只是報告個數字協同執法光是去年112年"},{"start":5867.116,"end":5889.393,"text":"中方跟我方就已經舉行了49次我剛剛有跟您提出針對這次大陸漁船播的作業我們大概每個月都要執行4次共同執法我想再請教的是如果將來再有大陸漁船到我方的禁制海域作業的話海巡署"},{"start":5889.813,"end":5890.913,"text":"因為我們現在是在取締非法保障合法"},{"start":5905.719,"end":5906.78,"text":"海洋委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5920.547,"end":5943.98,"text":"報告非常完整 是不是之後再給我書面報告所以從這一次的這個撞船事件來看我們沒有辦法排除未來再有事故發生或者是兩岸緊張中美衝突的時候陸方都可能升高言論的這個論調對方施加壓力在未來陸方很可能不會只用口頭的語詞來否定我方的治理範圍而是改以實際行動劃定陸方的內海"},{"start":5946.441,"end":5950.222,"text":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":5964.867,"end":5967.028,"text":"對話跟交流才是我們應該要做的而且要建立有效的溝通管道不要對到"},{"start":5991.543,"end":5994.804,"text":"有關這一次我們的這個兩岸協商的談判代表我知道的是我們在臺灣是海巡署的許副署長那據我了解許副署長是海軍中將的官階"},{"start":6021.054,"end":6036.819,"text":"所以由這樣的高階的中央政府的執法官員對上大陸紅十字的顧問這樣身份位階上的落差完全不對等所以這有符合過去民進黨一直強調的兩岸事務協商需符合對等的關係嗎?請那個主委回答"},{"start":6040.543,"end":6041.243,"text":"所以這是兩岸對等的一個狀況嗎?"},{"start":6064.917,"end":6085.812,"text":"我們都知道這是基於我們的尊重我們一定就是說這是紅十字會的代表那希望我們還是希望說我們這個兩岸的這個協商一定會對等那不必以免不要在我們在城市的門內運氣避免一旦再次發生所以我覺得要跟管主委這邊說關於一個專題的報告"},{"start":6087.773,"end":6087.993,"text":"徐宇貞委員"},{"start":6105.187,"end":6129.25,"text":"謝謝我們官員的答詢 謝謝我剛剛要說明一下因為管主我剛剛有說過今天海巡署本來要放一個錄影帶然後經我的助理詢問之後這個錄影帶呢巡署要放的錄影帶並不是當天的這個撞船事件的錄影帶而是我們怎麼樣登檢我想你們這樣的錄影帶在所有的網路都可以搜尋到"},{"start":6129.991,"end":6130.111,"text":"張志倫委員"},{"start":6156.375,"end":6164.611,"text":"主席好 各位主委好 各位委員好 各位媒體先進大家 早安大家好那是不是有請管主委來接受質詢好 有請管主委謝謝"},{"start":6173.638,"end":6197.988,"text":"館主委您好首先在進行質詢之前我想要針對就是館主委您針對我們這個內政委員會的專案報告的專題專題報告的標題來進行這個修改我要表達強烈的不滿所以我想先請教一下這個館主委說你本身跟這個我們高經招委是怎麼樣去做溝通跟協調的"},{"start":6200.125,"end":6212.555,"text":"跟委員報告這件事情確實是我先在臉書上對外揭露事後我跟召委致意也跟社會大眾表達對召委失禮之處我願意接受指責"},{"start":6218.86,"end":6234.287,"text":"新型的表達或是用簡訊的方式來通知我們的召委都是對我們這個委員會的不尊重以及對立法院的不尊重也對我們立法委員的不尊重所以這邊是會代表我可以請代表我們立法委員們請管主委這邊跟大家致歉一下"},{"start":6235.103,"end":6252.894,"text":"我想我對於這件事情在第一時間對外就公開的說明那一天之所以用臉書是因為就在前一刻我接受電視媒體的訪問的時候我已經非常非常虔誠的表達說接受接受接受監督是我們的本職所以需要公開就這樣子說明那請問一下行政院跟各部會是不是會"},{"start":6261.86,"end":6262.12,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":6276.906,"end":6304.008,"text":"在害害海巡的立場的情況之下我真的是跟委員誠懇的拜託就是說如果我們都支持海巡請大家也要支持海巡來更改這個名稱我們都非常支持這個海巡兄弟的信號我們針對是您當時不管是跟昭偉的溝通及擅自修改專案報告的標題對我們的服務非常好而且這是開立法院的首例"},{"start":6304.428,"end":6306.551,"text":"我們不希望這個惡例一直持續下去"},{"start":6323.312,"end":6337.637,"text":"最後要跟管主委請教我們這次主要做內政委員會的專題報告也是希望管主委可以藉由這次專案報告的機會跟國人來說明這次驚嚇事件的始末而且尤其大家關心的兩岸的議題"},{"start":6339.238,"end":6361.139,"text":"那管主委我覺得您這次使用不管是用臉書或是傳簡訊私下給我們的主委其實我覺得個人認為是非常的不妥我認為很多的事情不應該留為政治的口水那以及我今天早上才收到這一封的這個我們黨團給我的資料我們一直想要跟您請問的是說您在簡訊中提到說"},{"start":6364.061,"end":6382.173,"text":"謝謝昭偉海巡署極為辛苦原住民同仁所佔的比例在原住民部落區域的單位所佔的比例為而不低那您這樣的簡訊內容那我們的昭偉也跟我們分享說這讓他覺得心裡非常的不舒服請問是不是想要用這個利益交換來讓我們同意說這個專案報告的主題做一個更改"},{"start":6387.557,"end":6388.178,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6405.299,"end":6420.531,"text":"原住民的同仁在海巡署的特勤組所佔的比例高達17%最辛苦的工作當中原住民的同仁所佔的比例非常的高可是當你在協調事情的時候你卻把這個東西拿出來我覺得"},{"start":6423.793,"end":6430.716,"text":"讓人家不免會接受到訊息的人感覺到非常的不對因為已經接受已經接受上期量產還有這個質詢粉絲應該要予以全負主權所以是不是本席在這邊再給你一次機會"},{"start":6440.561,"end":6443.802,"text":"我充分地表達這件事情我充分地表達我應該受指責而且我願意受指責謝謝委員"},{"start":6461.01,"end":6489.085,"text":"好 謝謝管主委您辛苦了那接下來我要來質詢的部分就是我們現在國人非常重視的一個議題就是這次驚嚇事件我們海巡署第一線的人員其實非常的辛苦大家知道現在這個這個驚嚇的海域常常發生衝突可是我覺得讓國人所嘩然的部分沒有常常發生衝突我想這邊要請你回答的是說在這次的衝突之間我們海巡人員在發生這是一個事故"},{"start":6490.126,"end":6503.517,"text":"好 這個事故我們想要了解的是說造成兩死兩傷的結果那為什麼沒有任何的蒐證的記錄跟設備我想請問管主委是說您可以在這邊分享一下到底有沒有蒐證的設備及記錄"},{"start":6505.879,"end":6526.852,"text":"第一個當天我們密錄器是夠用的但是當天這艘船它本身的配備就是一個V8所以他們有帶V8出去執勤而且它不是接到案子以後重配備出去它是在海上其實在海上是非常的不適用那我們以我在新北市的範例我們這個這個密錄器都是應該要帶在身上的所以這邊一定要拜訪主委這邊"},{"start":6531.355,"end":6553.391,"text":"應該要再去爭取我們所有海巡弟兄應該要使用的設備而不是手持V8那這邊我要再跟管主委報告我已經在主管會報也成立了小組一定要對勤務管理也進行全盤的一個檢討那這邊我接下來要繼續跟主委請教其實在立法院的內政委員會在108年就決議說要請海巡署在兩個月內研議配發密錄器給基層的執勤人員"},{"start":6560.836,"end":6562.277,"text":"這個缺口是我們改變未來的配備的這個新型設備的配備方式我們現行的配置方式呢"},{"start":6583.174,"end":6583.434,"text":"委員報告．"},{"start":6598.211,"end":6598.591,"text":"目前不是這樣配備"},{"start":6626.534,"end":6628.776,"text":"目前不是這樣配備但結果這一次我們準備要這樣配備"},{"start":6651.85,"end":6653.771,"text":"我收到你們這邊有一個資料是說從108年到112年主要購買的1358台這個數字有沒有錯誤"},{"start":6682.171,"end":6689.558,"text":"這個數字應該是沒有錯我再跟你請教在110年北立分屬有一個標案他說採買密錄器200台金額為60萬他一台大概估計的金額是3000塊錢那請問這個密錄器是哪一國產製的這個部分我請署部的同仁來回答"},{"start":6705.035,"end":6727.274,"text":"報告委員、情報組這一部分的密錄器的話有一部分是台灣製但是有一部分是大陸產製所以這就是我今天要提的問題齁如果這些我們的密錄器是大陸產製會不會有治安上的問題所以這一部分我們在110年的時候我們通知組這裡就有一些所以這就是我要跟各位我們跟今天我們所有的國人報告的齁"},{"start":6727.534,"end":6749.492,"text":"就是因為這些密錄器是大陸製的導致我們海巡第一線的弟兄們他不知道是不是應該使用這個密錄器會不會有資安上的問題因為我們大陸產製的這些密錄器總共400多具其實都已經封存了所以我們現在所有所用的密錄器都是台灣產製沒有用大陸產製的密錄器"},{"start":6750.728,"end":6764.979,"text":"好那接下來我要請問的是關於這3061台的缺口這密錄器還沒有取得的部分請問你們是不是要動用第二預備金來做採買請問大概會用多少的第二預備金報委員我們會用到2150萬的金額"},{"start":6769.564,"end":6789.825,"text":"請問大概一台是多少錢?是採用哪一國製的?我們是台灣製的,我們採用的那一台是我們比警方更好一點,我們一台大概便宜價格是7000塊對,這跟我說到的消息是一樣的,那希望說在這邊你們盡早去取得這個密錄器的使用,而且要確保這個資安的安全"},{"start":6790.365,"end":6791.206,"text":"這次不幸的事件我們高度的遺憾"},{"start":6808.587,"end":6824.314,"text":"海巡署在勤務的裝備跟勤務的管理上面如何更進一步的落實經由這次事件的檢討我們已經成立小組這個小組我們不排除在不涉及機敏資訊的部分我們會請學者專家一起來指導"},{"start":6825.795,"end":6853.971,"text":"我請教一下我管主委如果又發生說有大陸的艦艇登到我國的這個船艦這個不管是旅遊船或任何的船艦上的時候請問主委這邊你要怎麼反應如何確保兩岸的安全跟人民的安全其實中國的公務船對我國民船的登艦這是非常特別的案例多半都是發生在"},{"start":6854.611,"end":6856.693,"text":"海洋委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":6873.406,"end":6899.231,"text":"所以當天我所說我們第一時間會請他在安全的範圍之內能夠不要停留跟我們對開讓我們趕快能夠接近在兩船的中間這確實就是海巡署所律定對於這樣的一個政治爭議事件當中的攻擊協會的作品這邊我要最後要拜託你的就是說跟隊伍剛剛提出來我們這個海巡弟兄的密錄器"},{"start":6900.111,"end":6900.892,"text":"我們就看誰提供委員"},{"start":6930.092,"end":6946.115,"text":"非常謝謝張志文委員質詢,也謝謝管主委,謝謝。我們繼續請黃敬斌委員,哈?怎麼樣?您是OK嗎?好,那黃敬斌委員的同意就是處理,您是怎麼樣?"},{"start":6958.968,"end":6959.308,"text":"主席"},{"start":8304.462,"end":8321.807,"text":"現在大家都回到座位上了大家辛苦了主席我來宣布一下現在有臨時提案總共是4案經過剛剛各黨團的協調之後召委也接受大家的意見我們就暫緩處理臨時提案我們現在繼續我們的答詢請黃建斌委員謝謝"},{"start":8347.365,"end":8369.024,"text":"主席還有我們這場各位我們先敬我們在場的主委還有我們現場所有的媒體朋友大家早我想要請教一下這個我們的海洋海洋海巡署的署長嗎我們海洋會的管會和主委好我們請海洋委員會的主委、管主委謝謝好 環委員好"},{"start":8375.459,"end":8398.559,"text":"主委長安最以前我對你的印象就是在電視上那時候是在擔任立委的時候主委給我的印象就是專業而且溫柔但是問題頭尖銳身為一個人一代表非常的成功但是今天我也看到功力不減但是還是提醒一下"},{"start":8399.815,"end":8414.168,"text":"主委就是我想換了位置換了腦袋只是正常的但是我相信依主委這麼資深的經歷也應該知道要尊重立法權這件事情也不會發生我們早上這麼多的花底"},{"start":8416.11,"end":8437.261,"text":"我來委員會的第一天,張綺麗委員就說我們的傳統是很peace那時候我們很peace那我也是想說應該是會很開心的在這裡來共同解決我們民眾的需求沒想到今天一開會就看到現場這麼多的媒體跟朋友那當然"},{"start":8439.401,"end":8439.721,"text":"主席主委"},{"start":8464.697,"end":8464.997,"text":"主任委員也有委員,謝謝"},{"start":8480.891,"end":8507.044,"text":"所以大概我簡單的來說到這一次的事件我們針對我們這次金門撞船事件其實大概發生就是兩個原因對不起我請委員支持海巡署改名對他們來講真的太重大了真的有需要對不起主委我要必須在這邊再糾正一下今天的狀況報告不是你們送來的狀況報告好不好謝謝主委我都已經講成這樣了你讓我下台你還這樣對不對"},{"start":8511.587,"end":8526.973,"text":"所以我們現在提到的就是這件事情整個最引發最大爭議的原因就是因為影像這件事情沒圖沒真相是沒圖沒真相所以對於基層執行的地區發想也非常不公平他們冒著生命危險"},{"start":8528.133,"end":8531.416,"text":"海巡署不是因為他們的過失造成災難,我能夠請委員再回到上一頁嗎?"},{"start":8557.775,"end":8583.434,"text":"抱歉抱歉抱歉因為海巡署的疏忽演變成災難真的很抱歉是所以這個災難這個事故我想不是因為海巡署的疏忽在登檢的過程中發生的事故我們現在在等檢調來釐清等檢察官來釐清謝謝那如果說是因為沒有錄影帶的部分我們真的是深深的感到抱歉"},{"start":8584.495,"end":8588.12,"text":"我再度也為閉路一帶的事情深深地感到抱歉"},{"start":8597.18,"end":8618.388,"text":"主委,海巡署說我們缺乏露營器材,這造成問題。主委,海巡署說我們是盾擊以下的巡邏艦艇,密錄器不是標配,因為這樣並沒有違規。我想這個是都把責任推到我們基層同仁的做法,完全要以第一線同仁來承擔這個奉獻。"},{"start":8620.108,"end":8644.184,"text":"如果今天沒有因為金門撞船事件這個意外發生我真的不知道海巡署同仁沒有佩戴密錄器那個幾個委員提到像那個學生委員提到這個在我們鄉下是警察執行基本的配備因為他不單單是要維護執行的安全他也要確保自己的安全所以密錄器是必備的應該是這樣吧"},{"start":8646.613,"end":8649.716,"text":"主委的關心我們真的會痛加檢討因為主委剛才提到說主委上一年多解決很多問題包括花樂道91去修那個船"},{"start":8666.032,"end":8670.535,"text":"秘密錄器的部分我個人在針黃分署的部分讓他做到每一個人有一台這一點在我上任以後有要求"},{"start":8684.102,"end":8698.513,"text":"政法分屬的部分已經補到每一個人有一台那金馬棚分屬的部分我替他們找了100台那過年後才到所以當時那100台還沒有到所以密錄器我其實我就任以後也陸陸續續的在解決"},{"start":8700.815,"end":8721.424,"text":"有更大的問題替海巡署做了很重要很重要的問題的解決但是無論如何就這個部分真的接受所有委員的指導跟指教我們一定要痛加檢討我們未來絕對不允許在勤務上沒有落實然後再發生這樣的事情"},{"start":8723.038,"end":8740.257,"text":"中日本其實部門很多弟兄都是在軍人服役那有些是在海巡單位服役那其實這件事情會丟機成人大打擊因為他們會擔心未來如果我執勤我到底要怎麼辦如果出了事情之後我要怎麼辦不過當天密錄器是夠的當天密錄器是夠的"},{"start":8742.118,"end":8766.999,"text":"所以我有說在我們的管理的勤務的落實的部分我們有很多細膩的地方要檢討但是當天他們就是依循常的做法用這個攝影的器材來出勤而且他不是說我要去登檢怎麼會你要出發沒有密錄器不是而是他已經在海上用他尋常的標配在海上執勤的時候被調過來的"},{"start":8768.22,"end":8790.837,"text":"被調到現場去應處這件事情所以有這樣的設備在所以他用的就是標配就是我們在每一艘CP提醒上面所給的手持式的攝錄影集但是沒有影片好來分署長想要說更能夠了解事實好不好"},{"start":8792.621,"end":8810.129,"text":"報告委員我是艦隊分署的分署長廖德成這邊在特別的說明在特別的說明我們更簡的規定在密錄器的部分不一定是只有密錄器只要能夠全程錄音錄影的設備就好那就是要在"},{"start":8811.229,"end":8832.564,"text":"發動登檢的當時一定要全程錄音錄影這個是我們一個勤務上面的規範那當然如同我們朱偉講的將來我們的勤務上面會再做一個檢討精進以上好 謝謝副市長當時搖晃的程度讓他來不及因為追逐的時間就短短的那麼5分鐘而且是高速的40節的這個過程"},{"start":8836.001,"end":8836.241,"text":"那我們的"},{"start":8864.773,"end":8867.594,"text":"各位委員報告有沒有這個影像當然是其中讓我們了解案情當中的一環但是事證的還原其實不是光靠這個影像事證的還原有種種的跡證從船舶的跡證"},{"start":8891.545,"end":8900.64,"text":"從人員的筆錄從各方面這個檢察官他會去還原整個事實的真相主委我剛才提的是"},{"start":8903.422,"end":8904.263,"text":"這個部分請署長來說明請署長"},{"start":8926.58,"end":8948.854,"text":"跟委員報告我想這一次整個有關陸船翻覆的原因依照我個人我們同仁第一時間在做這個現場的調查跟整個證物的一個現象來看我想主要有三個原因我想在這邊跟您做個報告第一個它是一個高速右轉這是第一個原因"},{"start":8949.614,"end":8978.9,"text":"那麼這個高速右轉我們從這一個艇它的這個車就是我們的加車就是它的速度它是推到底它的電門開關是開啟另外它的舵就是方向盤是打到右門舵這個右門舵就是向右轉到底就是如同我們這張這個圖片那這樣子的一個狀況它是高速右轉第二個主要的原因是它的配重"},{"start":8980.179,"end":8981.66,"text":"所以理論上這個船,兩個弦外機在後端,它平常就是這樣翹起來的"},{"start":9009.226,"end":9036.476,"text":"另外他還有一個這個收網機在他的右側所以正常上他的配重就不正常所以他正常狀況下他有加了這樣子的配重然後他會右傾他又在高速又右傾第三個最重要的原因第三個我最後一個原因第三個最重要的原因我時間剩下55秒不好意思我只是要調調一件事情而已如果我們從頭到尾知道緊盡快公佈他不會超船這個船長"},{"start":9038.337,"end":9042.667,"text":"他只開了不到14船這一艘船他1月份才買來的所以他沒有執照"},{"start":9047.09,"end":9048.27,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":9072.757,"end":9093.835,"text":"我們絕對支持海巡弟兄依法行政我們絕對支持但是其實是需要一個真相也包括今天大家對我們弟兄的質詢的質疑是最後要提醒你啊 主委海巡署他是署內正部所以在我們內政委員會這邊的質詢他不是軍隊他是海上警察"},{"start":9094.535,"end":9095.576,"text":"指法必須小心"},{"start":9119.487,"end":9132.433,"text":"謝謝建兵委員質詢也謝謝你們的答詢我在這邊提醒一下署長您剛剛所回答委員的這些為什麼在你們今天的專案報告裡面沒有更細部的說我這個是要譴責你們的"},{"start":9134.414,"end":9154.222,"text":"若今天你所有的這個專案報告能夠把你們更細部的這些如同您剛剛所講的是不是能夠更提供給委員們做參考而你在剛剛浪費太多的時間我先譴責你們並沒有把這個細部的資料交給這個委員會下次不可以這樣子好不好謝謝好繼續我們請劉許廷委員來做質詢謝謝"},{"start":9162.624,"end":9164.388,"text":"謝謝主席這個還有會主委有請請管主委這個喔"},{"start":9173.561,"end":9192.398,"text":"因為在開始質詢之前我們還是要把話講清楚因為這個連給一份報告的內容都可以避重就輕這本席是覺得非常失望這是我們很多新科委員第一次站上委員會發言的質詢台但前面就惹出這麼多的風波那我想海洋委員會主委我想責無旁貸我舉個例子來講"},{"start":9193.619,"end":9218.373,"text":"趙薇已經明確的排案也把會議的名稱告訴大家連外面不屬於內政委員會直接監管的國防部都願意尊重內政委員會的排案權利直接去寫金門撞船案的報告結果你們自己一個海委會自己在那邊更改名稱還發臉書也不願意跳過也不願意只跟趙薇講也不跟委員溝通前面剛剛程旭發言也有講其他有例子那都是協調過後"},{"start":9219.754,"end":9246.584,"text":"大家都願意各退一步可是像你這樣子跳過去還在臉書上直接寫的也算是聞所未聞啊入委會也很油條啊就乾脆寫反正這就是個會議然後也不寫標題反正方法總是很多啦我只是覺得國防部比你們更重視內政委員會這件事情你們應該好好回去檢討因為有海巡署的立場必須捍衛請委員能夠支持你講得真好啊不要開始我們的質詢啊就是因為要捍衛海巡的立場啊"},{"start":9247.344,"end":9254.847,"text":"我告訴你在場每一個立法委員都非常支持基層依法行政這件事情沒有人質疑我還沒有請你回答我會給你時間啦好不好主委你先聽我把話講完"},{"start":9260.052,"end":9283.562,"text":"為什麼我們都講說要支持執法這就是因為我們要支持基層依法行政所以今天才要排這個專案報告我第一個要請問這個主委的問題是我們每一次現在有這些爭議的海域對不對有那麼多的船隻進進出出那請問平常海巡在執法的時候是以驅離為原則還是以登船這個檢查為原則請主委回答"},{"start":9284.122,"end":9307.179,"text":"跟委員報告我今天的最新的資料沒有在手中但是根據事發當天我們今年驅離213艘才扣留了4艘驅離213艘扣留的才只有4艘這個數字我想委員從這個數字可以知道執法有執法的依法行政的總統規定所以我現在就要問你在這邊把話講清楚什麼時候要驅離"},{"start":9311.562,"end":9330.689,"text":"什麼時候要上船登檢?有沒有SR?山無絕對扣留山無是法有明文規定兩岸人民關係條例明文規定山無船無名船百分之百我們就是一定要經過登檢以後處理那當然嘛既然是要登船要扣留對不對?所以就越追越近了是不是?那天當初的狀況就是這樣是不是?"},{"start":9331.909,"end":9334.711,"text":"委員我們的同仁在那種過程中跳上船是有可能被夾到的沒錯吧我們的同仁還三根指頭被夾斷"},{"start":9348.179,"end":9372.334,"text":"我們的同仁已經受傷不是在所有登船的事件當中我們有很多的這樣的一個傷痕在身上在國際海巡的執法慣例上通常啦如果要這個停船受檢那當然就會比較有衝突性也比較有危險性嘛甚至很多地方會做失能性射擊甚至考慮集塵那麼碰撞其實是這個執法的替代方法我還沒有問你你不要再這樣這很過分好不好"},{"start":9374.336,"end":9397.194,"text":"所以我們用靠近的方式有的時候可能會有碰撞本來就是在所難免的事情嘛 對不對是嘛 對不對我跟你講我們今天把這話講清楚就是因為我們沒有無意要指責基層啊但是總要知道真相嘛你要先知道真相才能尋求善了所以剛剛很多委員都很關心有沒有密錄器我告訴你有沒有密錄器影響的是什麼"},{"start":9401.738,"end":9413.995,"text":"我們會比較迅速的對於案情有比較多的了解這一點我們痛加檢討而且也成立了小組在未來如何確實的落實的部分還有整個過程我們都會做全盤的檢討"},{"start":9415.222,"end":9440.007,"text":"我告訴主委108年大概也是在這裡開會雖然那時候本席還不是立法委員但那個時候大概也是因為海巡執法的關係內政委員會就做成決議兩個月以內要研議要處理讓大家都有密錄器108年就要講說把這個品質提升起來到了現在還會發生這樣的事然後完全沒有畫面主委我告訴你沒有密錄器沒有畫面影響的就是基層的權益因為我們現在連話都講不清楚"},{"start":9443.588,"end":9471.776,"text":"連話都講不清楚的時候我們怎麼幫基層執法委員講話這確實是保護雙方所以我們會痛加減討所以你現在講痛加減討現在就是痛加減討我痛加減討我承受指責現在台灣政治這麼好搞就對了在整件事情上 包含主委今天稍早開會的時候在講我一肩扛起這話講得多好聽啊現在講一肩扛起只要被罵就叫一肩扛起這麼簡單嗎請問這件事情發生到現在誰負責了負起了什麼政治責任付出了什麼代價請你回答"},{"start":9473.186,"end":9483.259,"text":"報告委員海巡依法行政取締三無傳播造成意外沒有他們的過失剛剛署長所說三大原因"},{"start":9487.705,"end":9487.945,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":9503.986,"end":9526.077,"text":"我講你的管理失當我講你的該上去的裝備沒有準時上去嘛你的管理是高層的事情不是基本的事情嘛出事的時候管理階層就要檢討就要有人負起政治責任現在問題之所以大家講成這樣就是因為沒有人負起政治責任嘛大家期待你之所進退有所作為也是因為這樣嘛"},{"start":9526.997,"end":9528.238,"text":"本席從來保護他們到現在,此時此刻我還在保護他們。"},{"start":9543.012,"end":9565.159,"text":"根據海巡署召開的海巡署金門2014專案小組記者會,第9號海巡隊副隊長陳建文報告是坦承執法期間兩船有碰撞。金門地檢署2月20日對外說明,主任檢察官施嘉榮表示,訊問金門海巡隊執行隊員表示,張獅雙方高速行駛,退方不斷蛇行,雙方不慎發生碰撞,大陸快艇當場翻覆。"},{"start":9566.019,"end":9582.115,"text":"我剛剛前面已經幫你講了你既然說因為我不要涉及我以碰撞的方式處理這是一種選擇所以碰撞是執法的常態地檢署也講你們自己海巡裡面的人也講那就有嘛有就是有碰撞跟撞船不一樣碰撞跟撞船不一樣我們請專業來說明好嗎"},{"start":9583.797,"end":9598.789,"text":"碰撞和撞船是不是一樣?我們能不能讓我們的分署長用最專業的角度來解釋?你今天想要在這邊鬼扯這個我沒有意見我是請分署長要來說明這件事你現在最大的問題我現在在檢討你整件事情的處遇你第一時間你講它蛇行蕃蝠"},{"start":9600.45,"end":9600.61,"text":"分署長回答"},{"start":9618.981,"end":9634.212,"text":"我們在執行登檢的過程裡面兩船會擦撞碰撞這個都是一個常態至於說碰撞的大小會不會影響到它翻覆的狀況這個由地檢署再做一個確認那我們在登檢這個碰撞擦撞這個都是一個常態"},{"start":9636.354,"end":9658.807,"text":"所以委員 當我第一時間看到海巡對外做那樣的說明的時候事後我了解 在海巡的語言裡面 燈檢就是包含一個持續碰撞的過程所以他們用那樣的語言來講的時候 事實上跟社會溝通的語言不一樣所以你在這邊就等於承認是有碰撞吧"},{"start":9659.267,"end":9660.389,"text":"這個海巡第一時間沒有講所以我替他們來講的時候"},{"start":9675.006,"end":9692.236,"text":"委員當碰撞的事實要說明又沒有錄影帶要一起說明的時候主委啊那絕對是一個跟社會溝通的問題你知道社會大眾現在怎麼解釋這件事嗎一開始說他們舌形翻覆所以我們的執法院幹啥一開始後來講到哇完蛋有碰撞可能這次有爭議"},{"start":9692.836,"end":9700.721,"text":"後來你最近因為專案報告的名稱你又要堅持沒有碰撞然後你現在在這裡回答我的時候你又說有碰撞這叫顛三倒四啦各位這個事情我看還有得講啦光是你的反反覆覆啊就讓這件事情更加複雜"},{"start":9715.209,"end":9721.75,"text":"主席,對不起,時間暫停一下好,我們請主委的對相關的說分談說我只是海巡署﹖可以直接對海警傳開火﹖認知作戰做到這種地步,我是不接受的"},{"start":9744.855,"end":9757.047,"text":"我承受,連一個報紙的社論都可以造謠到這種地步,說我下令海巡署可以對海警船直接開火,這是大暴的社會。但我在臉書說也會被人交代啊。"},{"start":9765.175,"end":9781.419,"text":"請你就不要再回答問題,因為牛委員沒有問你這個問題,謝謝尊重一下立法委員的諮詢權啦,前面已經不尊重趙薇的排案權,現在又要不尊重立法委員的諮詢權這裡是你答詢的場合,不是你開記者會的場合,你搞清楚啊第三部分我要接著問啦現在,我這個也要請一下陸委會主委,可能要一起說明好不好,麻煩你,謝謝"},{"start":9791.75,"end":9816.423,"text":"現在狀況 中共國台辦發表立場啦 直接宣誓說這個禁止水域不存在他不是嘴巴講而已啊 現在人家海警船也進來啦進來的時候 愛怎麼搞怎麼搞 我們看那個巡航軌跡感覺還蠻順暢的就好像照他規劃的這樣子繞了好幾圈一樣今天來一下 明天又來一下 好像非常態變成常態 本席非常擔心啦我們都支持海巡執法"},{"start":9817.003,"end":9841.903,"text":"但我們也支持執法不分對象剛剛你講針對山無漁船 對不對我們這甚至要登船臨檢這是你的SOP我們當然覺得沒有問題 對不對我們剛剛在討論的是你在處理整件事情的時候進退失據讓一件意外變成政治風暴這是高層這是你們在管理單位無能的地方現在我們要看的是接下來可能會發生什麼事啊現在狀況是海警船登堂入室啊"},{"start":9842.443,"end":9846.885,"text":"請問海巡先請管主委再回答一下海巡是要處理呢還是不處理委員我建議這個問題由署長來回答我們要知道的是最專業最真實的事為什麼不讓署長回答呢我時間有限我給你30秒請好我們有請署長謝謝"},{"start":9865.001,"end":9894.319,"text":"非常感謝委員給我這個機會說明我想你現在剛剛我就單就這個問題來回答海警船現在目前從2月14號以後發生這件事情以後他們每天刻意的在白天平均在6到7艘那曾經有高達過11艘不僅海警船還有海監船還有公務船還有海巡船所以他們的意圖就是圍繞著金門對他進來了處理不處理"},{"start":9894.679,"end":9909.953,"text":"要不要處理?怎麼處理?有沒有驅離?為什麼沒有影響他們的航跡?我們當然有,我們的船就是一直跟他對應著,我們在我們的禁止水域內,對他們不斷的廣播跟驅離,這些我都可以提拔,OK,我可以提拔,沒有問題,沒有問題,會,我會給你五秒留給陸委會主委,一樣"},{"start":9919.242,"end":9946.906,"text":"我們要求書門這個禁止跟禁制水域是不是兩岸雙方的默契基本上從81年10月那國防部根據兩岸條例他公布了禁限制水域那這個禁限制水域30幾年來雙方都有這樣的一個默契有默契嘛對不對出現歧異的時候怎麼處理有沒有處理方式基本上我想海巡單位都有他的SOP沒有我講的是兩岸之間有沒有做協商跟討論"},{"start":9947.786,"end":9952.708,"text":"他們都有一個處理的經驗...我剛剛已經跟你講你書面就好如果我們現在講說遇到這樣子的問題海軍署長在你後面請問你是支持他強力執法還是你要呼籲他冷靜一點"},{"start":9962.893,"end":9983.106,"text":"我想當然支持他執法啦 但是是不是強力不是 他們本來狀況不同啊 因為我們現在沒有辦法假設到底是珊瑚船還是一般的漁船還是貨船沒有我講海警船喔 中共的船 中共的船那我想他們都有SOP 我們國軍也有SOP對 本來他們有SOP 所有的狀況不同 我們沒有辦法現在一一的"},{"start":9985.547,"end":10012.921,"text":"主委,你剛剛有聽清楚我的問題嗎?一個是,是不是雙方默契?第二,認知出現歧異的時候是怎麼處理?你跟兩岸,就現在遇到這樣的狀況,你的回去處理是什麼?第三個是執法,剛剛你這三個,一樣我請你會後用書面回覆本席,可以嗎?主委,前期未充分準備,中期處理進退失據第三,事後方向不明確,該有人負起政治責任,謝謝"},{"start":10014.178,"end":10038.892,"text":"好,非常謝謝牛徐廷委員的質詢也謝謝我們所有官員的回答請不要忘記了剛剛委員所提的你們有一些書面報告請你們儘速提到本委員會然後參與我們所有本委員會的委員來參考謝謝我們繼續請許新穎委員但是跟委員報告一下我們待會跟王美惠委員詢討完之後呢我們休息五分鐘的時間讓大家這個上個洗手間好嗎?謝謝,有請新穎委員"},{"start":10052.039,"end":10059.945,"text":"主席、我們各位委員、各位官員還有各位媒體大家好首先本席想請海委會管主委"},{"start":10069.071,"end":10091.147,"text":"首先本席想先就教育部從邊的國語詞典修訂本來向您來做一個簡單的教育撞的其中一個意思就是碰擊那例如撞車所以今天我們的題目金門撞船事件這個"},{"start":10094.704,"end":10111.522,"text":"碰撞的意思就是碰觸撞擊剛剛您在答詢牛許廷委員的時候您也一直的講碰觸所以這個撞跟碰撞都是一種描述客觀事實的動詞"},{"start":10112.813,"end":10139.323,"text":"如果撞帶有故意的意思那我本席想請教2020年1月2日空軍黑鷹直升機在新北烏來山區撞山失事是故意的嗎?這個巴巴水災漂流木撞擊漁船致受災專案救助計畫難道漂流木有意識?難道是故意的嗎?所以希望"},{"start":10140.236,"end":10168.497,"text":"管主委．包含我們海委會．我們海巡單位不要在文字上去做過多的解釋其次在海商法第三條下列船舶除因碰撞外不是用本法之規定它也是用碰撞海事報告規則第一條本規則所稱海事指船舶沉沒、擱淺、碰撞所以"},{"start":10169.759,"end":10180.713,"text":"這個部分希望管主委可以去查不要自己想自己對那再來本席也要再次的來譴責就是"},{"start":10181.946,"end":10199.239,"text":"您篡改我們召委的這個專案報告的題目其實不只是這個不尊重立法院不只是藐視國會您更是毀憲亂政是毀壞我們憲法的現行犯所以"},{"start":10201.145,"end":10218.602,"text":"本席還是在這裡,要求您道歉認錯,可以嗎?委員,這件事情發展到現在,我想...那停,你不用回答,你願不願意道歉認錯?其實委員,從昨天我公開道歉認錯,我昨天..."},{"start":10222.005,"end":10226.849,"text":"我幾經斟酌兩個價值我必須要平衡的時候我所致的意就是用這樣的方式來表達所以你昨天傳給我們的高金昭偉你說失禮結果今天的報告還是用你的這個題目"},{"start":10251.087,"end":10266.968,"text":"完全的真的藐視國會回憲亂政接下來本席要掌握時間我們非常的捍衛海巡的立場剛剛海巡署也這樣說您也這樣說"},{"start":10268.206,"end":10293.562,"text":"真正的捍衛就是要拿出證據說明真相所以本席要再次請教檢方是否有查扣傳播軌跡資料兩艘船的有沒有交給檢方的資料我們是請分署長來說明等一下我沒有要請分署長您身為海委會主委發生這麼大的事您應該知道"},{"start":10294.69,"end":10317.955,"text":"大陸的漁船跟我們的1051艇的船舶軌跡資料我們台灣這邊雷達資料或是兩艘船有沒有船舶軌跡資料有沒有交給地檢署本席就問這個問題跟我報告的是有有所以我現在跟你確認兩艘船都有嗎兩艘船都有好"},{"start":10318.815,"end":10333.789,"text":"那各位兩艘船的軌跡都有我們是不是可以就軌跡的比對我們就知道到底有沒有碰撞跟委員報告檢察官他會根據船本身的事件檢察官有檢察武器"},{"start":10334.77,"end":10337.053,"text":"我現在要捍衛我們海巡弟兄的立場所以第一個既然有傳播軌跡資料"},{"start":10356.454,"end":10359.755,"text":"媒體報導兩船接近巡邏艇長下令登船檢查那中國快艇突然甩尾急轉不讓海巡人員登船是否是事實"},{"start":10384.271,"end":10396.257,"text":"所有的案情的說明委員為什麼今天一直到現在我們署長才把剛剛講的三個原因說出來因為所有的案情所有的案情都應該由檢察官來還原我沒有要他講這個"},{"start":10400.859,"end":10415.551,"text":"好,非常謝謝,請所有尊重一下委員的質詢剛剛我也有在聽,牛委員質詢的時候,我們署長說的一再的,他只是在說明什麼,船為什麼會翻但是我們現在要確認的是"},{"start":10416.552,"end":10441.593,"text":"當我們要這個下令登船檢查的時候那到底是不是中國快艇突然甩尾急轉不讓海巡人員登船所以造成不小心碰撞或是不小心怎麼樣然後才導致翻覆你們是一直的強調為什麼會翻覆我剛剛有聽我聽得很清楚所以不用再講現在我的問題就是是不是"},{"start":10443.035,"end":10444.776,"text":"其實你的回覆我們大家就知道那應該就是如此嘛"},{"start":10472.876,"end":10495.341,"text":"那再來我們這個有人說兩岸的默契只要這個船越界船呢使離境線水域我們海巡人員就會返回執勤地區那當時呢其實是大陸快艇他更深入了我方的海域所以才發生追捕事件那這個情況是否屬實"},{"start":10496.561,"end":10497.161,"text":"本席要問當天指揮CP1051追緝作業的是庭長還是岸上指揮?"},{"start":10511.63,"end":10512.83,"text":"本席為什麼問這一題?因為現在我們看到媒體報導"},{"start":10540.777,"end":10555.38,"text":"檢方他以過失致人於死的這種法律責任朝向這方面申辦當然我們不希望因為我在庭我們海巡人員不能讓海巡人員去擔這個法律責任所以我們要知道"},{"start":10555.78,"end":10576.804,"text":"是誰下的指令所以按照剛剛我們主委所說的那是我們庭長是庭長委員我們按記通報的時候循環區就會調度調度以後整個執法的過程所以有庭長也有按上指揮整個執法的過程不會去指揮他說你這個是要驅離還是沒有我們的署長已經點頭了沒有署長已經點頭了沒有沒有"},{"start":10584.605,"end":10585.046,"text":"我剛剛在講的時候"},{"start":10600.915,"end":10618.3,"text":"當天指揮CP1051追緝作業的時候,委員請...不是從頭到尾一個長官在指揮嗎?那是...對對對有啊,所以這中間一定有互通嘛,然後所以我們的庭長還有岸上指揮,大家就狀況然後來下令,所以那一天應該是..."},{"start":10619.56,"end":10620.02,"text":"海洋委員會主任委員"},{"start":10650.441,"end":10656.567,"text":"我們一直希望司法能夠把這個真相真實的呈現這個就是為什麼我們一直沒有對外說明的原因我們不希望影響司法的判斷"},{"start":10665.635,"end":10684.405,"text":"我們當然希望我們兼顧偵查不公開兩岸互信台灣人民權益保障和未來兩岸協同執法繼續推動那我們還是希望海委會要釐清事實向社會完整說明那今天在報告的時候這個管主委有提到"},{"start":10685.385,"end":10699.925,"text":"因為現在呢,我們雙方,兩岸雙方都互不信任,如果送請公正專業的第三方團體機構鑑定,管主委是否同意?是,我們也希望這樣做,同時檢調..."},{"start":10703.209,"end":10703.449,"text":"海巡署"},{"start":10721.9,"end":10725.124,"text":"我們非常希望不是請公正的第三方就非台灣非台灣非大陸都可以我們都可以因為這是一個我們已經請"},{"start":10736.977,"end":10737.337,"text":"最後本席要說"},{"start":10758.004,"end":10778.518,"text":"館主委,你位高權重,出入有隨乎,安全無虞但是,現在我們這個金門撞船事件,造成我們金門海域附近民間的漁會跟漁民朋友只能尋求自保"},{"start":10779.298,"end":10780.638,"text":"我必須要強調,我們依然在執法"},{"start":10801.843,"end":10803.965,"text":"我們希望你們繼續的執法合法我們為海巡鼓掌但是如果"},{"start":10819.557,"end":10848.223,"text":"未來檢察官起訴那我想請問我們管主委如果到時候真的有這種過失致死那您要如何治保?您會不會辭職?我今天所說的第一點已經非常的清楚本案有待於我們國家的司法制度來釐清您責任勿萬勿眾這是我們的待遇當然我們大家都希望而且我們希望是沒有擦槍走火"},{"start":10848.843,"end":10869.997,"text":"所以我們希望管主委您一定要為我們這個整個事件你要想的周全你不要再如此的這個態度強硬而且我們希望能夠對兩岸我們的勝意無以負加我們真的呼籲大家能不能一起呼籲對方也讓這件事情回歸人道好也謝謝管主委謝謝"},{"start":10876.881,"end":10878.022,"text":"蘇巧慧委員海巡署州署長"},{"start":10900.482,"end":10901.663,"text":"海巡署和各位海巡弟兄在我們的海疆裡面,他的最大的職責是什麼?"},{"start":10920.646,"end":10944.563,"text":"我們就是要捍衛我們的國土捍衛我們的海疆捍衛我們漁民的合法權益我們今天這個行動是取締非法保障合法從春山開始金門地區的漁民就開始跟我們報案說這個地區有不斷的有大陸的船隻進入來做非法的捕魚或者其他走私或者什麼的行為"},{"start":10945.143,"end":10945.303,"text":"主委主席"},{"start":10966.104,"end":10982.274,"text":"我們的雷達剛剛委員所問的這個整個是一個連續動作我們的雷達雷情一發現有陸級的快艇要進入到我們的境線之水域這個時候我們的戰情的職域人員就會通知CP"},{"start":10982.734,"end":10982.914,"text":"整個故事是這樣子"},{"start":11011.462,"end":11038.567,"text":"所以不是在海上接到通報以後我重新穿戴好以後然後整裝出發我是已經在海上不只在巡查當中趕往事發地點趕往被通報地點那是要被事發所以是一個正在巡視海疆每天每天不分眾頁巡視海疆的狀況下接到通報去到有不明船艦的地點"},{"start":11039.187,"end":11042.708,"text":"請問署長你可不可以把當天發生事故的主因你剛剛說有三點你可不可以再簡短陳述一次我想一個就是"},{"start":11064.178,"end":11066.599,"text":"高速大轉彎 按照艦船操縱的特性 像這種高速"},{"start":11084.042,"end":11110.124,"text":"大轉彎他那天是右轉因為我們看後來的施政他是在右滿舵對這樣子的傳播這種快艇的操船特性他一定就是會右傾對那麼另外第二個我講配重那他為什麼要高速行駛啊他在逃避我們的追查所以看起來所以那天的狀態是兩艘船艦我們的船艦聽到了通報以後追逐過去以後看到了這一艘三無傳播是"},{"start":11110.424,"end":11130.925,"text":"然後呢?然後開始開始開始進行追逐我們要開始他從我們先廣播對聲音響信號我們一定是標準的程序對我們一定會先廣播對請你離開這個水域對如果我們要登檢先警告了嘛我們會先警告對而且我們會廣播請你減速好我們必須要登檢"},{"start":11131.525,"end":11132.946,"text":"藍色是我們的 紅色是他們的逃走 準備逃走"},{"start":11154.32,"end":11170.229,"text":"在這個過程當中都是高速的是他看到我們的時候他就開始高速他在兩分鐘之內的速度從零加到這一段你現在描述的這一段是有影響的嗎現在描述的這一段是有影響的嗎其實這個我們不能講"},{"start":11172.91,"end":11197.623,"text":"但是今天因為剛剛有很多委員都提到你們有沒有雷達的航跡跟影像對如果稍微我們一般人都知道我們怎麼可能沒有雷達的航跡跟影像所以剛剛的資料全部都交給減掉了是他到底是不是陸方所講的他是停在那邊好對我們高速過來撞擊那這個船我們吊起來看說360度各位看"},{"start":11198.123,"end":11224.095,"text":"他除了左舷這個船沿的地方的六分之一處有一個破縫一個明顯的撞擊的點以外其他整個船身整個船身是FRP的而且沒有一點的破洞也沒有大凹洞連凹的地方都沒有那如果是他講的我們40節的高速這樣子垂直撞到他"},{"start":11225.106,"end":11226.427,"text":"一般漁船會開到40節嗎?一般漁船最多10節"},{"start":11242.398,"end":11242.538,"text":"各位請看"},{"start":11256.175,"end":11275.909,"text":"在這個船的前面在這一張各位看它在它的右側還有一個起網機這個起網機也是一個很重的東西是它要來違法到我們的水域裡面把這個布的網再起起來就是它布的網它在裡面捕魚"},{"start":11276.81,"end":11297.923,"text":"那這個騎網機也正好在右旋那他那天跟我們追逐到最後我們在區裡準備登檢的時候登檢是一定要破鏡嘛這是實情你不破鏡你怎麼登檢在這個登檢的過程當中雙方都是高速這樣子的高速過程當中請問委員你認為會不會有差創你認為會不會有這種互相之間的這種"},{"start":11302.606,"end":11325.175,"text":"所以我們為什麼我們在這個影片上面我們希望能夠證明我們平常的登檢就是這樣的這是實情我們從來沒有隱瞞實情我跟委員報告我們從事發到現在我們一直遵照檢調的指示我們不可以對外透露所有的案情所以你現在我還要強調一點所有的雷達"},{"start":11326.335,"end":11342.691,"text":"是可以看到這個目標這兩個不管是我們的還是中共的這個快艇航向、航速是非常清楚的這雷達是可以看出你航向、航速它的位置在什麼地方它是不是在我們禁限制的水域還是"},{"start":11344.249,"end":11369.897,"text":"我們胡亂揪一個故事告訴你們這些都是用雷達的這些行動表示出來但是這個我們都不應該講這叫留給剪掉去說我知道你很委屈啦也為我們的海巡弟兄委屈因為整段的故事就是一個我國的海巡弟兄在保江衛土的狀況下進行在海上接到通報要去驅逐"},{"start":11370.697,"end":11385.409,"text":"而發現他是一艘三無船舶之後警告之後他想要逃逸所發生的狀況最後有不幸的結果但我們現在接受調查所有的資料你都已經提供給檢調對不對是一個這樣的狀況也希望國人能夠理解嘛其實你整個的狀況是這樣何況你歸納的經驗其實是"},{"start":11393.436,"end":11412.307,"text":"第一,這艘大陸的珊瑚船舶高速行駛第二,它在逃避追逐的時候向右急轉第三,坦白講你們現在調查過,你也認為船長經驗不足這是三大翻船的主因因為這個調查不是只有我方的四個團隊還有兩位生還者各位還要記住還有兩位大陸生還者"},{"start":11414.511,"end":11414.911,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":11435.063,"end":11435.303,"text":"委員會主委"},{"start":11455.772,"end":11481.132,"text":"我想請問,基於這樣的事實,你為什麼認為今天的報告,我剛剛聽管主委在說的時候,報告名稱的更改其實是海巡署建議的,為什麼你們提出了這樣的建議?這跟你現在的談判有沒有重要關係?如果有的話當然要能夠多事一件,剩下30秒。好,我想委員,因為主委他對這件事情的態度一直就是"},{"start":11482.534,"end":11492.534,"text":"﹗"},{"start":11492.796,"end":11501.959,"text":"每天都在這樣做我們是取締非法我現在要知道的是剩下10個秒這個名稱你對於談判有沒有影響當然就是糾結在這個名詞大委員你講的完全正確因為這個可能就是一個責任的歸屬將來如果說你們"},{"start":11518.524,"end":11544.687,"text":"你們國內都這樣講是碰撞或者是什麼撞船或者是這些他說你們自己都這樣講那你怎麼能怪我們說這是你們撞船因為這個撞船的這個動力跟這個我們平常兩個我剛剛特別解釋就在你們海巡專案裡面這有特別的用法嗎沒有什麼特殊的用法但是你說撞船的話那個感覺就是現在陸防的說法"},{"start":11545.347,"end":11572.766,"text":"所以現在中國在談判的過程中就是用你們撞船這樣子的名詞嗎?是用撞船兩個字在把責任扣到你身上?你的意思是這樣嗎?所以你沒有辦法接受?我不能透露我們這個溝通的過程但是你拒絕接受這個名詞?當然當然所以這就是一個態度我可以這樣理解嗎?可以你無法透露但你沒有辦法接受在這裡報告這個名詞我要請委員聚焦我們現在是取第三無傳播"},{"start":11573.366,"end":11586.935,"text":"因為我們剛剛有其他委員很認真的還查自己請你給我20秒我再做個解釋這個三無全部不是只有我們在查起我剛剛有特別跟另外一位委員質詢的時候講我們光是去年112年"},{"start":11588.456,"end":11610.619,"text":"中方要求我方跟他協同執法就有49次那個概念就是說我每個月跟中方他的海事單位或者是海巡單位或者是海洋事務的單位他會要求我們海巡跟他一起合作在各自的水域當中去查其這種違法的走私的"},{"start":11610.979,"end":11611.619,"text":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":11634.093,"end":11654.239,"text":"大陸跟我們之間共同來維持這段水域正當漁民的一個捕魚的一個合法的權益另外我們是要保障這些合法的權益我們要防止那些濫捕濫啃這些他們經常跑到我們的水道撲下一些漁網"},{"start":11655.419,"end":11657.881,"text":"那個不光是影響我們漁民的權益也影響航行安全"},{"start":11676.478,"end":11690.983,"text":"資料是一件一件拿出來所以責任不在我方的我們金魚我們是執行我們應有的權益保障合法取締非法該讓的我們是可以慰福、表達善意但"},{"start":11691.463,"end":11693.545,"text":"不該讓的我們絕對一步都不能退包括我們的名詞用法也不應該造成未來談判的困擾所以在這裡我是完全支持海巡弟兄的至於在國會的程序上如何可以更周圍當然我們彼此之間是同事我們可以再更進一步的來了解但"},{"start":11712.06,"end":11732.478,"text":"支持海巡地修我想這是不分黨派我們要讓海巡地修有最好的配備最好的權力也是我們作為他們最大的後盾這一點我想請署長放心我要跟召委抱歉正式的抱歉這個題目是我們海巡署昨天前天我們在禮拜五下午就寫了我們的撰稿人就在現場"},{"start":11734.12,"end":11759.28,"text":"所以我要跟委員稍微真正抱歉不用跟我抱歉我覺得你今天今天你如果有誠意的話你今天的專案報告也應該要如草繪委員所講的詢問的我們似乎好像是從媒體或者是委員的答詢當中你們才一點一點一點的透出來現在很清楚是說你們是有行軌跡圖的"},{"start":11761.181,"end":11772.807,"text":"所以你們只是交給了檢調但是你們一直對外是說沒有所以現在對於釐清真相的是有的對不對巧惠所以呢謝謝巧惠剛剛的質詢我們一點一點才知道抽絲剝繭也謝謝署長的回應謝謝好謝謝巧惠委員繼續我們請張宏祿委員來質詢謝謝"},{"start":11792.422,"end":11796.285,"text":"我還是請署長好 我們還是請署長署長 剛剛聽你這樣子我覺得名稱其實對後續的影響很大 對不對就是撞船啊 碰撞啊 什麼的我不能講說不大因為我們現在的專案小組"},{"start":11819.144,"end":11821.147,"text":"責任的歸屬在我方的立場一直非常明確我們希望經由我們司法"},{"start":11835.606,"end":11851.137,"text":"公正的調查 同時剛剛委員都提到由第三方的公正單位不光是檢調的調查也不光是這些海事的調查也不光是各種的看驗而且要請一個第三個公正單位來看這些物理現象這些"},{"start":11852.378,"end":11880.269,"text":"海事的一個規則以及他們習慣上可能會產生的一個結果所以我們為什麼把這些資料全部提供給檢調我們而不對這些資料做任何的發表言論是因為我們要非常尊重我們台灣的司法制度我們不可以講一大堆有的沒有的去影響這件事情同時我也要跟委員報告我們這段時間從2月14號以後我們的同仁承受很大的壓力"},{"start":11881.269,"end":11896.661,"text":"因為我們也希望我們的同仁不要對外去講這些事情但他們心裡面也受到很大的煎熬不但是我們的同仁我們同仁的眷屬也受到很大的壓力因為外界一直對這些事情有很多的揣測"},{"start":11897.702,"end":11926.035,"text":"那我們做的事情的報告我們僅止於我們所了解但是剪掉調查部分我們是不可以公開的我們是不可以把這些資料譬如說這雷達的資料如果我今天可以拿到這個現場給大家看一下那我相信馬上各位就會有一個公平但是我們不能做這些事情因為這是剪掉專業的事情這個你剛剛已經說了那我問你啦有一件事情可不可以讓大家知道是"},{"start":11926.795,"end":11938.147,"text":"我們的艇現在艇在哪裡?我們現在的艇跟另外那一艘快艇現在全部被這個形式"},{"start":11939.195,"end":11940.836,"text":"有保密說誰都不能看嗎?"},{"start":11960.836,"end":11976.138,"text":"我們有規定不可以讓任何人看不可以讓任何人看對,有覆蓋那我問一下,副長,我不知道各位透露我們的艇有任何破損或擦撞的痕跡嗎?或我們去撞到人的痕跡,主動去撞人的痕跡嗎?"},{"start":11977.768,"end":11991.575,"text":"這可不可以透露這個內容我不知道恰不恰當透露但是就我們的我方的報告我不知道檢方的報告我們根依你海巡署的立場海巡署長講我們的我警車"},{"start":11993.496,"end":11995.137,"text":"所以如果沒有破損的情況之下你如果這艘艇去撞"},{"start":12020.632,"end":12029.827,"text":"故意像剛剛說的故意去撞擊這一艘商務的船舶你那麼多年當署長的經驗我們的艇會不會受損"},{"start":12032.725,"end":12060.074,"text":"因為我們兩邊都是FRP的材質照這樣高速的速度40節這樣子衝撞過去我認為會有一些最起碼會有一個凹痕或者破洞但是其實那天我們在吊著兩個證物的時候媒體記者都有拍左右旋360度都有拍到不管是我們的船跟對方的船現在所有360度"},{"start":12062.208,"end":12062.449,"text":"我們有一張圖"},{"start":12079.439,"end":12101.776,"text":"這是我們自己調查的因為我們第一時間我們自己海巡隊要做個初步的調查這是我們的船各位有沒有看到任何的破洞有沒有看到既然拿出來了我跟各位報告一下它的長是11.6米我們的長只有9.6米它的寬是2.7米我們的寬是2.8米"},{"start":12107.11,"end":12107.37,"text":"這次外面講的"},{"start":12120.959,"end":12149.278,"text":"這我們真的是我們這是事實這就是我們的照片這是我們的扣押的現在已經被扣押在這個證物的那我們這個是我們自己內部的一個這跟檢調無關所以我還是要強調所有的事實真相一定要有檢調來說我們不能說不是署長給檢調的我們當然知道但剛剛署長也有提到當天在處理這個時候其實媒體也有拍到嘛對不對我們的船"},{"start":12151.559,"end":12162.283,"text":"是沒有任何的損害 只有一點點的那個擦撞一點點擦撞 然後 對不對但你敢保證這個擦撞是這次造成的嗎我不能這樣講對嘛齁 因為是 來 書長你先聽我講完"},{"start":12166.465,"end":12182.431,"text":"一般國際慣例跟我們在舉例非法的一般就是他如果不停船我們當然是會慢慢靠近慢慢靠近我要登船臨潔偶爾都會碰撞對不對我還要強調還有另外一個場景委員沒有考量到"},{"start":12183.551,"end":12197.805,"text":"陸方的船翻船之後我們的船第一時間在做什麼事全部在做救難救人因為我下的第一個命令就是以救人為主那天我就在我們海巡署的請指中心第一時間我們副署長"},{"start":12198.986,"end":12200.407,"text":"這個船隻到底是怎麼回事?或者是有什麼狀況?"},{"start":12223.12,"end":12250.012,"text":"那都是後來後來因為檢方要求要扣押這兩艘船給它釣到陸岸上不可以在水裡面所以說我們現在是釣到陸岸上的過程當中我們媒體也有拍到這些照片這不是我們要刻意透露這個照片對我知道所以我們現在我立法委員質詢你嘛所以現在一個很事實很清楚的問題就是說很清楚的我們的海巡署的艇沒有"},{"start":12250.532,"end":12251.774,"text":"後續因為我們在救援的過程當中我們有一個救援的照片我們那個"},{"start":12268.556,"end":12271.939,"text":"因為有一個我們一直沒有找到所以我們後來緊急"},{"start":12294.818,"end":12317.999,"text":"就馬上派潛水人員再派船過去我們的潛水人員立刻下去之後在第二次下水的時候才在那個駕駛艙裡面找到這個船長那整個的事實救援的過程我們從開始碰撞到現在雷達的那個回擊的現象那這種的時間如果是一點時分的話我們在"},{"start":12319.898,"end":12337.566,"text":"三點五十就把最後一個人救起來了那就是兩點、三點、四點就三個小時之內我們把四個人立刻從這個失事的水域把人都救起來這個各位也可以去追查一下過往我們這樣子的一個救生救難的這個經驗"},{"start":12339.347,"end":12339.928,"text":"這一點我必須要教訓"},{"start":12364.523,"end":12382.208,"text":"另外我還要強調我們這些每一個救護的人員送到案的時候那個救護車是消防局的他每一個救護車上面都有錄影都有時間那個時間就可以證明我們到底有沒有延誤我們什麼時候給他我們第一個"},{"start":12384.889,"end":12386.77,"text":"1點33分我們2點鐘就把他送到碼頭2點2分3點5分那個救護車就到現場為什麼我們在海上已經請"},{"start":12407.516,"end":12421.976,"text":"請我們的請指中心先申請救護車趕快先到最近的那個碼頭我們過去之後就把人送上去一直在急救好署長所以啦齁事件的關係啦我這樣的結論你看都不對啦齁第一個"},{"start":12422.857,"end":12435.606,"text":"從我們的艇現狀來看不像外界所說的我們是故意去衝撞故意去衝撞造成它的翻覆這個應該剛剛你講的我認為結論是這樣第一個沒有錯嘛第二個積極救援剛剛署長你說的就是這樣嘛對不對所以問題要講出來而且署長"},{"start":12447.745,"end":12467.676,"text":"我之前我在質詢我都要求你們要挺我們海巡弟兄要錢給錢要什麼給什麼我們都是這樣我們就希望他積極執法啦對不對我覺得你也要讓我們海巡弟兄有這個感覺你這個長官是挺他們的那我也覺得後續未來"},{"start":12469.057,"end":12492.783,"text":"我也覺得我們要積極的執法不能因為這件事情那讓以後所有的這一種傳播來讓我們的漁民苦無生計然後我們國安出現漏洞我覺得這個才是我們現在要的一個態度對不對那至於你剛剛說的你們海巡的堅持如果是用撞船或什麼會影響後續這個你今天這樣講大家都知道了所以"},{"start":12493.903,"end":12507.409,"text":"必須要有一個很清楚的跟大家講所以我剛剛所說的這幾點結論是不是都沒有錯沒有錯沒有錯嘛齁但是我們還是要強調我們現在所有的資訊跟所有的證據都送給檢調我們不能夠下定論一定要由檢調來做一個公正的評論"},{"start":12515.592,"end":12515.612,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":12539.5,"end":12546.306,"text":"好,非常謝謝張宏祿委員的質詢,謝謝也非常謝謝署長的回應,有請王美惠委員,謝謝好,我們再請署長要不要先喝一口水好,謝謝"},{"start":12565.452,"end":12570.594,"text":"市長,在剛開始開會到現在,兇手就是你了。大家都在美冠馬主委說他在這個地方,在這裡我認為,我們台灣國會這個議員,我們也覺得應該要捍衛台灣的主權,因為我覺得長久以來,"},{"start":12591.226,"end":12597.13,"text":"大家發生事情的時候,大家都不滿意,因為在這個地步的時候,你能夠跟主委說,你怎麼不跟主席說呢?他是沒辦法接受你說的,還是你根本就不跟他說,再來在剛才你所解說的,說實在,我看我們海巡署說實在,非常可憐,非常無奈,"},{"start":12621.646,"end":12634.069,"text":"因為你說常常聲聲鼓鼓說捍衛我們海巡視我們這裡的兄弟啦吼,但是在這個過程當中,自1994年到現在,每個人每個人每個人啦,我又看不到說每個人來到這裡,是要為台灣還是要為阿強啦,全部覺得是阿強的"},{"start":12648.724,"end":12649.186,"text":"會想法嗎．叫我講啥．跟我們來訪問他．因為若說後路外．在本席的臨地．"},{"start":12659.298,"end":12665.923,"text":"小龍騎摩托車的小龍跟騎摩托車的小騎那是聽差一點的你若在做秘密的時候我覺得不小心把你騎到還是我若你跟你的小龍那時候做的是不一樣的所以在這個單位我認為你要講清楚是怎樣你的"},{"start":12685.618,"end":12689.947,"text":"去質疑說,不能說太濃,要說太稀你如果太濃的時候,說實話這就是惡質"},{"start":12698.817,"end":12705.12,"text":"因為常常我們都說要捍衛台灣移民的權益及主管的權益,但是回過頭來,我覺得我們真的,我們的海巡署在做的時候,我們是如何打擊它?"},{"start":12716.127,"end":12724.974,"text":"再次在這裏,到目前為止,您有話不能公開,不能公開,這樣分析給您問一下,到目前為止,您的協調、您的說話時,到現在您意想到什麼?"},{"start":12732.401,"end":12748.559,"text":"請第二位來謝謝委員剛剛您所講的我們都能夠體諒那您剛剛說了我們就是一個執法就是一個單一的事件那今天這麼一個單一的執法事件也不是第一次發生我們經常在海上處理"},{"start":12749.58,"end":12749.9,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":12768.533,"end":12768.553,"text":"〔廣告〕"},{"start":12787.318,"end":12787.698,"text":"我相信我們不管他發生"},{"start":12813.733,"end":12822.936,"text":"沒錯沒錯,我們都不願意發生這樣的憾事但是我們今天我們的專案小組到金門談了這麼多天,從15號我們的專案小組長就帶著我們的調查組長我們15號就已經進入,他們20號才來市長我再來請教一下,搞不好政委委員會還要求我們海巡視的人過一邊給他們調查"},{"start":12842.722,"end":12847.123,"text":"因為我必須要跟委員報告我們雙方協議就是我們之間的會談的內容我們不要公開來,市長,不公開的時候因為說實在"},{"start":12872.705,"end":12873.985,"text":"因為不管是什麼人對不對"},{"start":12899.77,"end":12901.673,"text":"畢竟有兩個人過往的,我們就是要理清這個事情出來,不外乎會說,你們這個民進黨這層,又跳地在那裏霧,跟在那裏暗冷球"},{"start":12915.811,"end":12918.034,"text":"第一點,我們在這個整起事件上面"},{"start":12935.735,"end":12940.518,"text":"陸方一直要求一個真相我們也追求一個真相所以我們說我們要請我們的司法調查完了之後這個真相出來如果有救責有我們的責任我們絕對不規避你剛才說的船要經營"},{"start":12955.007,"end":12973.294,"text":"在一般的宣洩會判斷起來啦,原來你沒有這麼多但是我還要跟委員報告,就是我們因為雙方我講我們20年的合作,我們都有很好的默契平常他們要出來執法,我們要出去執法如果今天是協同執法,我們都會互通電話"},{"start":12975.035,"end":12990.304,"text":"邱主委特別有講到因為這是我們基層就是地方的事務我們直接海巡對海巡就聯絡了就可以做這件事情而且每次都會強調在雙方各自管轄的水域裡面做執法"},{"start":12991.464,"end":12999.746,"text":"這個都是我們的西區平常我必須要跟委員報告但是我要跟委員報告我們現在整個跟不管是家屬或者是對方的代表團紅十字會的這些顧問我們的重點就擺在我們希望能夠對死亡的家屬能夠多一點照顧"},{"start":13017.839,"end":13040.134,"text":"這也是我們國內很多的公教團體或者是我們的這些公益團體都有拜託我們希望我們能夠多照顧這樣子的一個家屬這是我們一直秉持的一個沒有啦 署長 大家照顧希望的家屬任何人都沒有犯罪的你今天要理清的專案就是要理清"},{"start":13043.456,"end":13048.059,"text":"當然這一定要由司法判決之後但是調查的結果出來之後跟社會大眾做一個說明所以我們不能說我們對我們不能這樣講因為陸方也會說他沒有錯我覺得這是一個很正常的一個想法當然啦不是啊 所有都是這樣你說你對我說我對就是讓他們去判斷你這個船會受傷是一對嘛對對可以考驗說你是龍還是蝦嘛"},{"start":13073.112,"end":13098.693,"text":"跟委員再做一個報告就是我們整個這個協商的過程當中我們最重要的一點就是說我們如何雙方避免未來在金下水域不要再發生類似的案件我們應該要注意這件事情那我們是不是雙方可以對這些山無船隻我們要嚴格的把關如果"},{"start":13099.895,"end":13118.96,"text":"如果陸方就讓他講出來的話反正像這三回沒辦法處理也要處理啦對 對 但是我們希望我們就是希望我們避免未來再發生類似的案事這是我們希望避免好 來 署長 最好我來請教一下到現在目前為止你們的合作後你們的這個名字是什麼來 你說一下你們的協商什麼名字"},{"start":13129.102,"end":13135.266,"text":"您的協商,您要去協商要寫什麼啊?請我們小組長、副組長來做個報告這位小組長啊,是不是我們的許副組長,是嗎?好來,來那協商過程的名稱我們都是一律使用彈劃紀要彈劃紀要?是阿沒說弄到、阿沒說碰撞、阿沒說什麼我就是說到2月10日發生這個事情"},{"start":13158.046,"end":13162.107,"text":"本席也了解,跟我們未來說實在,本席在這裡就是要告訴你們,你們的學生之後"},{"start":13174.091,"end":13179.472,"text":"我們都還在努力努力是哪個方面努力我們各方面都在努力我剛剛特別強調我們就是希望能夠在人道關懷的立場一定要對家屬提供很好的照顧"},{"start":13198.888,"end":13204.109,"text":"因為我認為,署長你說這樣是大家都認同的,你剛才說真的要讓人照顧,但我們看到副主席顧民東、副主席去告他們,說回來要立民進黨駕駛,我覺得很奇怪,是要駕駛什麼?"},{"start":13220.592,"end":13226.014,"text":"因為關心事情,我們是要求書論書來處理才對啊。你看他這樣,很高興的。跟他們國台辦的主任說回來要立法院進黨到時,哎呦,不要這樣啦。相為在台灣,回到什麼事情,我們是要合作來解決問題才對啦。不是在外面,要罵台灣人啦。這樣說實在啦,不夠假啦。"},{"start":13251.186,"end":13258.773,"text":"因為我看到這樣,我也覺得很奇怪,去到外國,跟他在台灣人,那些台灣人的退休金,加上美南台灣啊,你看他們不是民進黨的,是黨的。署長,你有覺得我說這樣,他說要回來的價值還是民進黨的嗎?"},{"start":13277.301,"end":13300.608,"text":"我要特別強調這次是一個單一的執法事件這是一個地方的一個單一的執法事件我們跟京下跟晉江之間這種事情我剛剛有特別舉例我們經常在執法的過程當中執行的時間後你有最好的可以提供我的拜託配合提供我的我剛才在問的意見以上"},{"start":13304.607,"end":13305.588,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13852.165,"end":13875.619,"text":"我們現在繼續開會我們請這個麻煩我還有一些官員好像還沒有回來是不是聯繫一下請他們趕快坐到位置上我們的管主委還沒有到所以請海巡署同仁是不是能夠聯繫一下管主委好 謝謝"},{"start":13878.018,"end":13878.038,"text":"黃婉嫻議員"},{"start":13907.489,"end":13907.509,"text":"黃婉婕議員"},{"start":13933.151,"end":13949.762,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝主席那我先開始在在此之前我要先表達一下我非常支持管主委對於這個名稱的更正因為我也認為在真相還沒有釐清之前不應該違背事實使用撞船這個名詞"},{"start":13950.663,"end":13978.576,"text":"所以我也希望接下來大家在司法的調查結果還沒有出來之前應該要尊重更用中性的字眼來定定那其實剛剛前面在程序發言的時候有非常多的委員都提到說過去沒有先例但其實在立法院裡面這個先例不只有而且非常多那其實以往都是互相尊重立法部門跟行政部門可以各自使用自己而認為的比較偏離中性以及符合自己立場的"},{"start":13979.736,"end":13979.796,"text":"主任委員．"},{"start":13998.277,"end":14024.718,"text":"我們維護自己的主權以及維護自己的治權應該是退無可退的萬一這件事情我們在這個名詞上面退了是不是會造成接下來非常嚴重的影響不管是說接下來談判的結果以及甚至到時候的教室的責任彼此的釐清沒有辦法進行下去甚至是一旦此門一開是不是變成說我們海巡署沒有辦法再好好的執法在執法的時候難道針對這些非法"},{"start":14026.96,"end":14027.821,"text":"首先我們請管主委"},{"start":14046.735,"end":14063.092,"text":"好 謝謝主委 我想要問一下就是關於2月14號這個金門海域發生的事情我想檢討是必要的因為沒有人希望看到這樣不幸的事件發生但是因為台灣是一個法治國家我們所做所有的事情都應該要執法有據"},{"start":14065.975,"end":14082.708,"text":"海巡署在這個執法的基礎上不只行之有年而且也寫的白紙黑字非常明確就是兩岸條例裡面29條、32條、42條其實都有寫到說中國的漁船不得進入台灣限制及禁止的水域"},{"start":14083.448,"end":14112.028,"text":"那如果未經許可進入了我們海巡署就必須要依法來驅離甚至扣留及傳播我們是不是過去兩岸都是在這樣的基礎跟默契上來執法的報告委員是兩岸人民關係條例這兩條還有施行細則的第42條照規定這個是依法有據這種三無的傳播我們就是扣留的程序登檢的程序扣留的程序來處理"},{"start":14112.568,"end":14112.908,"text":"其實就... 對不起"},{"start":14132.29,"end":14149.18,"text":"中國的法律比我們更嚴格。中國對於三如船這樣的傳播,如果被扣留了以後,他們抓到是一定扣留。扣留的時候,他們在拍賣的時候是把拆解包裝綁在這個拍賣中,你買去的一定要拆解。"},{"start":14149.48,"end":14153.604,"text":"一經查獲,一日沒收,而且罰款是船價兩倍,而且一定是最後要求適用拆解"},{"start":14167.719,"end":14192.699,"text":"所以其實中方在執法的過程當中他們不只是拆解末日乳甚至是他們用更嚴格的方式在進行取締嘛所以我不太理解的是在我們的政府非常積極的查緝的時候我們用非常克制的方式用非常理性的方式在照以往的慣例在處理但是還是有人要怪罪我們的海巡署說我們執法過當"},{"start":14194.901,"end":14195.221,"text":"我特別跟委員報告"},{"start":14223.884,"end":14244.779,"text":"這個十幾天當中我們沒有把這些案情說出來因為把這些案情說出來的時候兩岸在談判桌上正在溝通說出來的時候責任很明顯會歸於一方的時候這整個氣氛是我們跟家屬在談人道的撫慰可是我們談案情在說責任在對方"},{"start":14245.419,"end":14251.666,"text":"我理解我理解主委其實是非常善意而且也很有誠意的想要用最妥善然後釋出最大的善意來處理這件事情"},{"start":14267.103,"end":14293.364,"text":"但我還是要回到最源頭因為大家都知道這艘船就是一艘三無船沒有船名沒有船舶證書也沒有船籍港的登記那過去我們對於三無船其實是都是非常嚴加來查緝的因為三無船會造成我們合法船舶的權益的損害以及要保障我們合法漁民的權益所以必須要支持合法打擊非法這是一貫的立場對嗎"},{"start":14294.725,"end":14310.374,"text":"是,尤其是其實對海上的安全的影響也是很有疑慮的那無論如何我們依法有據的在依法行政執行這次的去地是一定要有這樣的一個執法的過程"},{"start":14310.714,"end":14334.14,"text":"所以在這件事情上面其實以往都是兩岸在共同打擊犯罪甚至是我們有一起來針對這些非法的船隻都有共同的處理對嗎在兩岸協談執法的過程當中我想我們海巡署經常也會收到對方希望說我們共同的對三無船要來加強取締我想這個在兩岸其實是我們的共識"},{"start":14335.14,"end":14353.852,"text":"沒有錯那我想針對這件事情其實以往都是這樣處理的但是我想要問的是這個事件本身請問這四位船員其中包括一位船長他們有沒有中國合法的漁民證書是沒有的他們沒有漁民證書嗎我們目前所知是沒有的"},{"start":14354.252,"end":14382.544,"text":"那請問一下這艘船他們是有勞補許可證跟漁業的船舶檢驗書的嗎?我想以這樣的串織我們目前所知道的資訊是沒有但是是不是容許這個部分如果要更精確的話我們艦隊分署或我們的偵防分署可能在這個部分會掌握比較更精確的資訊"},{"start":14385.795,"end":14405.643,"text":"有請分數長,謝謝委員好,有關於這4名船員他的身份的部分我們經過查證,包括生還者這2名的船員講他們的確是沒有所謂的證照包括船舶也是一樣,沒有所謂的船舶證書"},{"start":14407.475,"end":14435.009,"text":"所以他們不僅是三無船而且他們是無照駕駛對嗎可以這樣講那現在很明顯他們已經是在非法的處境之上而且是無照駕駛那接下來就要講說這個中國當時其實他們有宣稱說這四名船員他們是有停船受檢的但你們的檢查的結果是這樣子嗎這個絕對不是事實沒有在高速的行駛的過程之中"},{"start":14437.222,"end":14447.376,"text":"因為從最後,掉起來的船舶的最後狀態剛剛署長也有講了最後的狀態看到的是油門是全車"},{"start":14450.478,"end":14466.239,"text":"其實剛剛署長也有講到在台下有聽他有把最後這個船隻的狀態講得更明確他不只是全車前進而且是又滿舵即轉彎高速前進的狀態然後在這樣的狀態下加上這台這艘船它吃水很淺"},{"start":14467.541,"end":14467.781,"text":"當他以這樣的配重的比重的狀況"},{"start":14491.304,"end":14507.021,"text":"在以他又滿舵又是在高速開全車的狀況我們艦隊分署長曾經做的報告是即使沒有碰撞都是非常容易自行翻覆但是案情是什麼我們還是希望有檢調來釐清"},{"start":14508.683,"end":14532.49,"text":"好 那當然我們以上是提供一些事實的釐清讓檢調做最後的判斷到底造勢責任在誰那我相信造勢責任在誰已經很明確了那我想要問一個其實今天有聽到說談判到現在中方的談判的代表聽據說有要求我方的海巡人員要到中國問訊我想問一下是不是有這件事情"},{"start":14535.83,"end":14542.072,"text":"整個談判上面的誠信跟氛圍還有整個過程是不是我們請許副署長來說好委員好那在談判的我想用談判可能溝通我們是不是使用溝通這一個名詞來界定這樣的一個對話那在談溝通的過程當中是曾經有過這樣子的"},{"start":14564.381,"end":14571.253,"text":"對方有過這樣子的說明但是經過這幾天的這個溝通以後已經逐步的已經化解了"},{"start":14572.162,"end":14594.944,"text":"好那如果真有此事代表說我方的主權會有極大的受害影響希望我們要堅守我們的立場那這個在溝通的過程當中也必須要堅守我們執法的立場好那最後我想要講一下就是最後其實在這段期間有非常多人都要求我們主委以及海巡署要道歉"},{"start":14596.385,"end":14616.959,"text":"這件事情其實我必須要要求我們主委及海巡署絕對不能道歉我們不僅是無從道歉也沒有道理要道歉希望在司法調查以及責任釐清出來之前我們都不應該並且沒有任何執法的依據要來道歉好不好"},{"start":14618.219,"end":14644.057,"text":"兩個人命的過往我們是高度的遺憾跟哀悼也有很深的不捨之情但是因為事涉責任尚未釐清所以我們很誠懇的安排了兩次的道歉一次是對於說沒有這樣的一個收證的錄影導致於家屬十分的煎熬因為他們沒有辦法更迅速的來了解案情"},{"start":14644.697,"end":14651.199,"text":"所以對於沒有蒐證錄影的這一塊我們先由許副署長在金門的記者會上公開的道歉我也請我們的署長親自下去上香以及撫慰家屬在上香的時候也有對署長表達過歉意"},{"start":14664.424,"end":14692.73,"text":"我希望就是當然這個監控的部分監視器的部分接下來一定都要處理最後一定要保存我們自己那也希望說接下來我們在人力的部分如果有不足是不是接下來也可以試著改善是不是以兩艘為主來編制確保說現場的人力都是OK的然後都才不會有這種沒有辦法有人去錄影的狀態那最後就是有沒有看到說中國現在已經派出非常大噸位的執法船了2000噸"},{"start":14694.67,"end":14719.89,"text":"我們目前的這個頓位是不是跟他們沒有辦法對比是不是我們未來也可以考慮再加強派更大頓位的執法船來常駐呢?我想這個部分我們有一定的SOP那我們也有對局勢的一定的研判我想是不是容我們從海巡的專業以及整個海域"},{"start":14720.691,"end":14723.012,"text":"主委,我覺得該改善的就一定要改善,但是必須要堅守三大原則,就是我們的漁權、治權跟主權,這一定都要堅守住好嗎?"},{"start":14743.12,"end":14743.18,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14764.598,"end":14776.328,"text":"這個繼續我們請李博裕委員質詢那個我宣告一下等到這個召委我質詢結束的時候我們讓大家休息20分鐘用餐好不好謝謝謝謝齁那我們請那個海巡署周署長我請周署長"},{"start":14797.484,"end":14823.552,"text":"謝謝謝謝署長其實剛剛在這個程序發言的時候其實我就想要請你上來說明因為我從這個事件發生之後從這個專案報告裡面其實我們知道海巡署對於這個名稱是有意見而這個意見在哪裡這個意見是在於撞船跟執法跟你現在正在談判的這個過程是有相當絕對的影響"},{"start":14825.453,"end":14844.287,"text":"但是你有意見的這個過程當然你是必須透過海委會的主委透過管委員那管委員必須要跟我們這個內政委員會的召委來做一個溝通同時管委員也有責任讓我們全國的國人知道我們這個專案報告的內容是什麼"},{"start":14844.867,"end":14863.684,"text":"所以在這些種種的時間差造成今天早上內政委員會有一些大家有一些意見不一樣甚至對於目前的這個專案報告的名稱大家還是有一些意見的不同我想這個是事情的主因是在這裡是不是可以請署長你說明一下"},{"start":14864.545,"end":14887.968,"text":"撞船這個調查報告以及取締非法的這個調查報告內容會對於這個我們的談判的過程會造成大概怎麼樣的影響主委是謝謝委員但是我要說明之前我要先強調這是我們海巡署的立場所以可能海巡署如果沒有這個立場"},{"start":14889.989,"end":14913.116,"text":"這是我們海巡署的立場對我們第一線執法的人員會非常不公平趙偉出的這個題目我們把它海巡署做成這樣子一個題目來報告我個人對於這件事情我剛剛已經對趙偉做正式的抱歉非常抱歉但我們的考量只有一個考量我們是正當的執法我們是在取締"},{"start":14915.158,"end":14931.283,"text":"這個越界的這個快艇他的山巫船舶他是一個違法的行為所以另外其實你剛剛的說明裡面也有齁其實我們跟對岸的海警也有協議也就是說當這些山巫船他可能出現在我們的海域的時候"},{"start":14931.903,"end":14932.584,"text":"我也要跟委員說明一下"},{"start":14950.981,"end":14970.193,"text":"外界有很多的報導我們在這個整個的過程當中都沒有跟對岸的海巡聯絡我們在這個過程當中一直跟我們原來協同執法的單位一直都有保持聯繫同時查證這些船員的名字、機資然後請問這個船的狀況"},{"start":14972.614,"end":14996.641,"text":"然後我們現在救援的狀況我們一直在告訴對方因為這是我們過去一貫的做法所以這個請指中心他同時您在指揮這個要去取締、要去驅逐或是要是登船去檢查的時候我們也在通知對岸的這個海警嗎?我們當地的海巡隊的隊長親自通知對方我們現在的進度我們現在作用什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":14998.061,"end":15013.227,"text":"那麼一度我們在沒有找到第4位的時候對方曾經要求我們要派直升機過來加入救援我們可以派直升機過來加入救援他們希望能夠要求派直升機過來救援但是我們就在那個當下3點50分"},{"start":15015.288,"end":15033.765,"text":"當然這是假設啦,如果這是有必要的話我們也會派對不對?對,他們會派來,但是我們就在那個當下3點50分的時候,我們找到第4位的這個溺水者,我們立刻就送醫在這個第一時間我們就通知對岸,我們已經找到這4位這個溺水的人"},{"start":15035.447,"end":15056.198,"text":"所以我想我這樣子來說明一下這個事件跟我們兩岸的這個我們海巡署跟對方的海警的目標跟我們目前在執法的對象尺度其實是一樣的只是說發生在我們的海域是由我們來執行如果發生在他們的海域就算是我們的漁船有相關的狀況也會由他們來執行這是沒有錯的對不對"},{"start":15058.72,"end":15059.04,"text":"海洋執法支隊"},{"start":15077.003,"end":15081.904,"text":"我從你的回應我可以知道雙方的溝通是順暢的隨時可以共同來做這個我們也希望不要因為這一件事情但是今天會在這邊那麼敏感的原因是因為有這個事件之後"},{"start":15106.71,"end":15126.672,"text":"造成可能對方最近海警也增加了甚至他的海監船也增加了甚至他的盾位也增加了就是有點升高這些緊張的局勢但是我們在面對他們升高緊張的局勢的同時我們一定要給我們海巡人員最大的依靠我們一定要給海巡人員最大的後盾"},{"start":15127.913,"end":15154.212,"text":"在這裡要堅持對於取締非法的這個行動要力挺我們海巡人員這是我們必須要去做的事情但是這個過程裡面來那個請署長先請回我想要邀請這個海委會主委以及陸委會主委一起上台有一個在網路上看到你們的對話請兩位主委謝謝我們先請兩位一起上先請管主委"},{"start":15157.677,"end":15169.265,"text":"邱主委抱歉你先在旁邊先聽一下齁我看到這個對話齁這個對話的內容其實非常的惡意那我想要把這一份這個對話內容先給管主委主委我請問你齁你在對話裡面說中國兩個漁民該死"},{"start":15186.287,"end":15190.136,"text":"越借不撞他們的船,他們會越來越囂張,請問這是你嗎?不可能,這絕對不是我會講的話。你賴的圖案是這樣嗎?"},{"start":15194.875,"end":15223.389,"text":"不是 這已經是應該我很年輕的時候了年輕的時候跟中國兩個移民沒有關係吧所以這是一個我認為這是認知作戰的一部分這整件事情發生以來一直把我沒有講的話塞進來我的嘴巴然後把我建構成好像一個妖魔鬼怪一樣冷血 是不是就像我今天有講的連一個三大暴之一的國內的大暴的社論都可以說"},{"start":15224.509,"end":15225.189,"text":"這次我自己就感同身受"},{"start":15252.179,"end":15268.479,"text":"完整會議第一個你力挺和尋曙不要用撞船這個報告我給你肯定之外那目前所有的這一個包含認知作戰把你塑造成希望把你塑造成中國漁民該死這種"},{"start":15269.801,"end":15272.442,"text":"我們一路以來我一方面支持跟堅持捍衛我們海巡議法行政的執法之外"},{"start":15291.646,"end":15319.755,"text":"對於家屬的撫慰對於亡者的安寧我是盡所有的力量我們舉辦法會我們安置靈堂我們的同仁去拜飯持續到今天完全沒有停聚好謝謝管委員對不起管主委那我這樣請這個陸委會邱主委在管主委你請回座面對海委會他現在站在第一線海巡署站在第一線"},{"start":15320.555,"end":15346.468,"text":"面對對岸或者是這種認知作戰要拉高兩岸的緊張程度面對這種認知作戰要讓外界認為台灣主戰要讓外界認為台灣的海委會主委很殘忍對於我們漁民越界他們怎麼樣那對於這種認知作戰我想陸委會是不是也應該跟相關的單位做一些比較全面性的討論"},{"start":15348.289,"end":15365.186,"text":"片面的去改變目前今夏海域的執法狀況的是誰?台灣的陸委會到底對這件事情的態度我們希望怎麼樣維持和平我們的這個取締的方式我們是和平的取締但是發生了意外我們還是要力挺我們海巡人員的這些說明"},{"start":15367.868,"end":15384.885,"text":"確實,感謝委員的質詢我大概有三個面向我想長期以來中國對我們的認知作戰我想不是只有在這個領域所有領域基本上都有在做認知作戰我想這個報紙或者是我們國人也大概都相當的了解第二個,我們必須要感謝今天這樣的一個質詢裡面"},{"start":15387.387,"end":15408.434,"text":"我們所有的朝野的立委都支持挺這個海巡署不過剛剛您所提到的這個認知作戰我想在這裡也跟各位委員跟所有的媒體希望大家小心因為國台辦他在第二天的記者會裡面他就用了所謂這是惡意撞船事件"},{"start":15411.348,"end":15413.97,"text":"海巡署暴力執法要求賠償"},{"start":15429.4,"end":15455.86,"text":"一再的敘明說檢察官也用證人的身份對兩人製作兩份的詢問筆錄並且命他拒絕該兩人均表示對海巡隊的執法程序沒有意見我想在檢察官還在調查的過程中我希望國人不要對海巡署可以過度的苛責這種執法的過程確實很難避免一些所謂的意外的發生更何況我想"},{"start":15459.107,"end":15485.59,"text":"郭台鑌大概先前的記者會已經在做鋪陳他後續的這些認識作戰了所以這也是我們國人如果真的大家要挺海巡署我們真的在用語上可能稍微斟酌一下是我想謝謝主委這個也關係到後續的談判的相關的所有的要件那前提我剛剛也很高興聽到周署長那也很高興我們朝野共同來這個挺這個我們所謂海巡"},{"start":15486.391,"end":15510.14,"text":"那另外也就是我們海巡其實跟對岸都在打擊這一個三無船我們實在沒有必要去拉高這個緊張我們也都主張和平而且我們在執法的過程也都主張和平所以說在拉高緊張的人是誰在破壞和平現狀以及拉高緊張以及偵派這些海巡偵派這些海警"},{"start":15510.52,"end":15511.04,"text":"賴玉珍委員"},{"start":15543.34,"end":15544.661,"text":"海洋委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":15566.665,"end":15584.746,"text":"首先就是專案報告我看了目前已經交由警調處理執法遇到的程序還有相關的細節我們都尊重司法的調查但是我想要請教主委對於這件事情的看法是什麼"},{"start":15586.043,"end":15611.814,"text":"這是海巡依法行政執法我們絕對沒有過失在這個過程之中發生的這個不幸的事件那麼我們本於大公無私我們把所有的資料都交給檢察官讓他們不偏不倚的來還原真相但是在這個過程之中海巡的執法、依法行政難免在登檢的過程當中會有一個持續的碰觸的過程"},{"start":15612.794,"end":15633.752,"text":"但是我們知道這一艘船本身的條件的問題以及這一艘船他這個操船的人的身上身份的問題都在在的顯示說我們真的是在這個時候我們再把這些事情說起來是不說出來是不得已可是一定要說這是一艘三無船"},{"start":15634.292,"end":15637.654,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":15662.526,"end":15663.227,"text":"既然是這樣金門距離歐盟的最近的地方"},{"start":15680.719,"end":15691.168,"text":"兩千三百一十米,意味著兩邊的近線至水層高度是重疊的,也就是說這樣的狀況未來還是有可能會發生。再來我國出日號的遊艇,"},{"start":15698.813,"end":15725.342,"text":"被中國水警登船的臨檢這件事情意味著就是衝突升級了不然他們為什麼還要那麼敏感的時候特別來到我們的船上做臨檢想要請問海巡署的一旦類似的衝突再度發生海委會有何應對策略我們如何確保台灣的移民的安全"},{"start":15726.711,"end":15744.284,"text":"跟委員報告我們跟廈門的距離雖然很近但是禁縣制水域是從1992年以來雙方執法一個很重要的一旬所以不是因為說兩邊很近一定就會不斷的發生類案"},{"start":15745.405,"end":15770.239,"text":"這是第一點第二點這樣的一個執法的過程我們的執法其實我也三令五申我特別請艦隊分署要告訴我們的同仁落實所有的勤務我們也應該有精進的作為我們的執法一定要最優先是顧及自己跟他船的安全這個是我們執法所必須的而我們的海巡也都謹守這樣的一個執法應該要有的態度來執法"},{"start":15772.72,"end":15798.641,"text":"那這次發生意外是一個非常個別的單一的事件我們未來會盡一切的努力會盡一切的努力的精進作為來避免這樣的案件再度發生我們不會看到說這樣的事件要不斷的發生事實上也不是是但是我們遇到中國的海警的措施是什麼會去距離嗎還是說我們會主動開火嗎"},{"start":15804.059,"end":15828.644,"text":"委員絕對不可能是主動開火的這一切的SOP都一樣在沒有進入禁限制水域的時候我們有未進入禁限制水域時候我們的應處那麼如果是進入限制水域這個其實也是在非常緊張的時候才會發生的一種政治氛圍之下的作為"},{"start":15830.665,"end":15844.133,"text":"海警船進入禁止水域目前為止即使是這一次也都還完全沒有那進入禁止水域不是海警船而是其他的公務船舶所以其實兩岸我們都很希望能夠維持"},{"start":15845.774,"end":15860.126,"text":"我們兩岸在海域上面我們既是有協同執法我們又是有救生救難上面的聯合的救生救難這個善的橋樑是存在的我們很希望能夠讓這件事情趕快落幕在人道的抚慰上面我們趕快能夠落實跟完成我們是有非常非常大的誠意我們很希望能夠趕快恢復今夏海域"},{"start":15873.217,"end":15875.839,"text":"我們希望能夠趕快趕快讓這個事情不要再被綁在很多的政治的考量之中那個是沒有必要的"},{"start":15898.377,"end":15906.442,"text":"能夠擱置政治還原到人道的撫慰才是我們最衷心最大的期待也是最大的呼籲"},{"start":15909.182,"end":15922.51,"text":"這件事情海委會還有陸委會知道嗎菲律賓的在海外的南海的衝突我認為就是我們遇到問題就是解決問題而且不是在喊口號在說明大陸就像我們家的隔壁鄰居的壞鄰居所以我們也要想辦法說如何去解決他不然最後"},{"start":15936.119,"end":15944.066,"text":"最可憐的還是我們的民眾菲律賓他們也可以在最近半年跟美國展開的聯合軍事的演習我們目前的衝突情勢已經升級了我們既然還要採那麼強硬的立場我們有做好跟他們應來的準備嗎?"},{"start":15960.875,"end":15983.292,"text":"報告委員我們沒有採所謂強硬的立場我們絕對是堅持執法的過程當中我們是不勝高政治衝突的這從來我們不挑釁不勝高政治衝突從頭到尾過去到現在到未來都是我們唯一的態度這樣我們有機會就是說找美國跟我們是三天一直連回巡邏嗎"},{"start":15985.545,"end":16009.45,"text":"跟委員報告臺美的海巡彼此之間我們有合作的MOU但是合作的MOU的內容它分成很多的項目至於說我們有一些聯合的合作的項目因為本於外交上面的考量恐怕我們是不便在這裡做公開的說明跟報告"},{"start":16009.89,"end":16019.713,"text":"我相信就是臺灣的民眾不會在乎剛才大家就是很多的委員在問的就是說專報開的什麼名字我們全國的人民在乎的就是情勢升級會不會影響我們的生活還有甚至到說兩岸開戰因為有念過歷史的人都知道很多戰爭都是因為著火"},{"start":16043.219,"end":16056.263,"text":"這個才是我們台灣的人民的關心而不是就是有意義的就是鑽牛九尖一直在講一些的問題或者名稱所以最後就是我們金門的民眾每次就是要兩岸衝突"},{"start":16057.583,"end":16064.515,"text":"他們都是像海嘯一樣排第一名所以我們相信臺灣沒有人包括這位就是希望這樣子的衝突"},{"start":16069.208,"end":16095.064,"text":"大家就是渴望和平就是穩定生活的環境因為在我就想問委員的重點就是說在行政部門如何平衡積極捍衛領土與海城的權利同時確保金門甚至我們所有台灣人民不必要的就是害怕就是打戰擔憂的恐慌"},{"start":16096.935,"end":16097.155,"text":"國防部委員"},{"start":16119.633,"end":16147.229,"text":"所以說因為我看到就是說就是在講的都是這些問題所以我是希望就是說我們因為告訴的時間還有短暫的因素所以問的問題都是用陳述的我希望就是說未來本署就是可以就是將於就是精進還有就是加強的訓練所以關於就是精進加強的訓練的"},{"start":16148.87,"end":16165.577,"text":"提出幾個點希望就是我們說第一個就是海巡力還有對兩岸的關係的影響力還有對人民的福祉影響力的素面可以給我們一份嗎?因為都是用講的我覺得是不夠詳細我們的經營作為會給委員一個報告還有就是說關於就是說溝通的機制"},{"start":16179.098,"end":16198.269,"text":"請問我們這次的對於兩岸溝通的管道是什麼?有哪一些官方單位參與這次的溝通?我先跟委員報告,其實兩岸本來30幾年來就有基本的溝通跟協商的機制只是對方要不要用而已"},{"start":16200.665,"end":16223.372,"text":"但是正是對方可能礙於政治上的一些框架或考量但是現實上涉及到人民權利義務的這個事項他們最後還是會或是說我們雙方都會找到一個適當的方式去那以過去這幾年來講大陸人民在台灣發生各種的意外事故的"},{"start":16224.252,"end":16224.613,"text":"沒有政治之間的溝通管道"},{"start":16242.713,"end":16263.422,"text":"對 溝通管道我剛剛不是講了嗎溝通管道一直都有30幾年來雙方簽了很多的協議也有很多的溝通管道的機制不是相反就是兩邊政治溝通的管道就是通過單位各個單位基本上政治的議題的溝通縱使是所以才會拉成說已經半個月了到現在還沒有溝通完整"},{"start":16267.764,"end":16279.854,"text":"要分兩件事你剛問的是第一個政治的溝通基本上這件事情是沒有政治的問題因為它就存在一個個案執行的問題它就存在一個執法個案的問題過去發生過了很多的案例所以如果這樣做的話我們希望就是要有效的溝通希望有效的溝通"},{"start":16292.345,"end":16295.247,"text":"我們會盡盡一切的作為做最大的努力讓未來避免再度發生這些案件"},{"start":16319.898,"end":16326.402,"text":"但是這一次的案件委員您也知道對方船舶的狀態我想今天已經說得很清楚了"},{"start":16344.148,"end":16344.809,"text":"海巡署州署長"},{"start":16358.337,"end":16382.802,"text":"市長好,市長我們都針對議題今天我看了很多的同仁大家都執行的爭議就是我們的珊瑚船舶的問題那整個珊瑚船舶其實我們都知道它是越線然後整個以我們的常理來判斷一個撞船跟擦撞"},{"start":16383.522,"end":16383.802,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16403.529,"end":16430.966,"text":"只是一個那個漆有漆的那個痕跡那整個事情都是一個很單純那現在我看到我們今天的同仁都變成有點政治化所以在整個過程我也希望透過影片讓我們社會大眾還有我們的媒體我們的先進大家來知道整個事件的來龍去脈因為為什麼我會找署長上來因為你是最前線嘛"},{"start":16431.846,"end":16459.857,"text":"當初你是最清楚所以我也希望說這個事件也讓全國的民眾大家來知道說為什麼這個事件的發生整個我們的包含我們的後續的救援大家都是盡心盡力啊也沒有說我們的海星都是棲之不顧啊也沒有啊所以說很單純的一個事件我希望我們各位同仁大家都是把它不要太過政治化"},{"start":16460.417,"end":16463.178,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":16488.428,"end":16492.373,"text":"那我現在我也透過我的影片讓大家知道好不好來雅文"},{"start":16584.994,"end":16596.396,"text":"好的我透過這個影片給我們各位媒體大家來做參考其實海型單位真的非常的辛苦所以你看一個"},{"start":16597.882,"end":16623.86,"text":"三股船舶第一他們的船隻本身就有問題這是一個非法的船隻那又越過我們的中線就比如說我們已經超線過來然後我們的基於我們的維護我們的國家主權在執行所以我們要體諒到我們的海巡署我們的同仁大家的辛苦"},{"start":16624.6,"end":16652.864,"text":"所以今天我們就針對這個問題我也請海巡署署長來將整個來做說明因為我們也基於說偵查檢調偵查不公開偵查不公開的情形我們還是要知道說檢調基於偵查不公開我們的署長也是必以無奈不能講太多但是起碼可以公開的由署長來跟社會大眾來做說明好不好"},{"start":16653.885,"end":16672.826,"text":"謝謝委員給我們這個機會說明那我想剛剛透過艦隊分屬這個影片大家可以了解那個就是我們平常如果要登檢那就是我們平常在做的事情那往往在這個過程當中受傷的是我們的同仁"},{"start":16673.467,"end":16694.768,"text":"我們的風險比他們還大各位我不知道剛剛有沒有看到他們的漁船刻意地從兩旋戳出這個鋼管而且那個漁船都有做好的洞他要看到我們海巡來的時候他把他所有的鋼管戳出去讓這個船要跟我們我們的船要接近的時候"},{"start":16695.549,"end":16724.174,"text":"你登不上他的船,為什麼?他有伸出那個鋼管先把我們撞破他有一段距離,剛剛各位可以看得出來最明顯的一個... 您想跟你請張偉要說明一下這個影片是你們這一次的影片嗎?不是,我特別說明這次的撞船影片嗎?對,請你說明一下好不好?我們剛剛特別講的就是我們在登檢的過程中,我們過去登檢的經驗當中就是現在我們剛剛影片所播的一個狀況另外就是我們"},{"start":16725.174,"end":16743.494,"text":"我講個最明顯的案例就今年的這個中秋節在我們台北港外大概10到12海里左右那麼陸方的一艘漁船也是在這邊滅戒捕魚在我們的領海之內那我們的海巡艇也是接到"},{"start":16744.235,"end":16772.992,"text":"我們的命令之後過去驅離但他完全不接受驅離就一直對著我們來做碰撞那這個碰撞過程我們整個海巡艇188、10088這個編號我還記得因為那天是中秋節那天我正好也是在署裡面整個的過程我們的處理也是那天我們的同仁在這個接近的過程當中是非常的危險"},{"start":16773.812,"end":16786.68,"text":"那像這樣子的案例路芳也都是非常的能夠遵照我們過往處理的經驗他也是透由律師然後來跟我們來談賠償因為他違法在先"},{"start":16790.602,"end":16804.167,"text":"他也同意對於我們的修費對於我們的這些東西都能夠有賠償我要特別舉這個案例就是說我們兩岸過去在這樣子的一個案例當中是很多很多的案例"},{"start":16805.047,"end":16823.87,"text":"我們之間有一個執法的默契我們在各個事項或者事證擬清之後雙方都會做出應有的處置我們一直都是本著這個原則所以我要一再的強調我們跟對方的海巡也好"},{"start":16824.571,"end":16838.864,"text":"海洋執法支隊也好我們都一直保持有這樣子的一個默契那特別是在金門海域的執法我特別跟各位報告那去年一年的協同執法的頻率就高達49次"},{"start":16841.086,"end":16864.824,"text":"這裏面驅離我們是居多的那他們的扣留是居多的他在他的海域發現山屋傳播之後他就立刻扣留那其實我這邊都有數據因為他每次雙方都會做一個報告這次我們協同執法我扣留了幾艘船我取締了些什麼東西我把一些漁網給重新給他"},{"start":16866.005,"end":16866.586,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":16884.98,"end":16913.157,"text":"在航道上這些非法的這些活動或者布網或者是放這些蟹籠這些東西都是不被允許的不僅僅是我們海巡要做這些工作他地方的執法支隊也在做這些事情我們的金門縣政府也委託他也有專門的船隻出去收這些漁網或什麼那他在執行的時候也都會請海巡來配合"},{"start":16913.959,"end":16916.07,"text":"所以在這樣子一個執法的氛圍之下"},{"start":16917.335,"end":16946.258,"text":"我們是希望能夠保持一個好的一個漁場的環境讓雙方的漁民都能夠合法的在這邊進行他的捕撈作業我想這是我們一直以來跟對方一直保有的一個互動的一個方式那這是我要特別先說明的那這一次的三無船舶在進入到我方的禁縣制水域所謂禁縣制水域就是它已經進入到我們的領水"},{"start":16948.451,"end":16970.563,"text":"進入到這邊之後我們的海巡的隊員很明顯的就可以看出來因為他沒有船名因為我們海巡的同仁在這方面的執法已經有幾十年的經驗他第一時間就可以判定他是一個無船名就是三無的船舶所以他馬上就廣播驅離警告我們一開始的動作還是希望他能夠儘速離開"},{"start":16972.364,"end":16987.159,"text":"但是後續它產生一些高速脫離的現象我們才會採取後續這樣子準備登檢的一個動作那在這個準備登檢的過程當中就會發生像剛剛我們影片所發生的那種"},{"start":16987.679,"end":16990.34,"text":"這次檢調對於兩艘船查扣之後請這些相關的單位來做查驗的時候"},{"start":17009.968,"end":17037.288,"text":"明顯的有兩方擦創各流油漆的因為如果我們擦創到它它的油漆會到我們的船體上我們的油漆會到它的船體上而且我們這都已經送到臺北刑事警察局已經幫我們都驗都已經查驗完畢了那這個地方明顯的有兩個油漆互擦的一個這個擦創的一個地方"},{"start":17038.55,"end":17039.414,"text":"據我所知當然檢調為準"},{"start":17042.418,"end":17069.932,"text":"有兩處就是他們的左船尾跟我們的右船首那這些都是在調查的過程當中這些整個的事件的過程跟證物跟所有的我們開驗的結果這些資料我們都請相關的公證單位來做第三方的公證那這個公證可能要由檢調他去請我們不能請因為我們是當事人"},{"start":17070.792,"end":17087.591,"text":"我們是一個假方跟一個乙方所以今天有一位委員問到說為什麼是海巡署的副署長在負責來談論這件事情因為我們是假方他們是乙方我們是當事人我們是當事人我們必須"},{"start":17088.592,"end":17088.632,"text":"好的"},{"start":17112.105,"end":17123.722,"text":"謝謝我們的海巡署我們的署長我們各位媒體聽到我們海巡署的署長所描述整個過程中應該我們現在都要相信我們的檢方檢調的調查"},{"start":17126.306,"end":17139.513,"text":"整個調查出來我們再來做評論應該這樣是比較合理那也謝謝我們的召委謝謝我們同仁感謝各位謝謝吳啓明召委的質詢也謝謝署長的回應繼續我們請陳雪生委員質詢好謝謝我們美麗的召委辛苦了"},{"start":17155.02,"end":17158.842,"text":"是不是請我們海委會?好,也請管主委。主委、國安。您當了4任的委員吧?立法委員。是。那我們也是老同事。邱太三主委跟我從國道代表到現在30年了。"},{"start":17180.629,"end":17206.405,"text":"我們可以說都是老同事了所以我不忍在這個地方來苛責您我只是滿遺憾的是早上我們內政委員會高精召集員用撞船、翻船的字眼引起海委會那麼強烈的一個反擊撞船不見得是錯的"},{"start":17208.477,"end":17233.497,"text":"不見得錯了,也可能是對的啊那今天在立法院提出這樣的說明報告我們海委會可以據理說明嘛這個事件的本身大家很清楚嘛就是一個警匪的一個追逐嘛,是不是很清楚啊,不要說剛才的影片我們你看以前楊元明組長是不是,帶了槍"},{"start":17237.509,"end":17265.458,"text":"警匪的騙子然後海巡我從當縣長一直到現在我們對海巡的弟兄說真的非常的好我在前天跟主委電話的過程裡面我說我們縣長、議長、立委對你們海巡、岸巡基本上應該非常的好你們到了地方去看看縣長嘛"},{"start":17266.957,"end":17285.292,"text":"組長有沒有看過縣長、看過議長?人家都沒有啊各位委員報告我去馬祖的時候因為時間很短促而我們單位非常的多排完了這些單位以後確實還不及來拜會縣長不用拜會,縣長、議長也會去看你們嘛"},{"start":17286.543,"end":17288.044,"text":"各位,剛才已經花了很多的時間說明了,影片也放過了"},{"start":17308.573,"end":17312.237,"text":"因為對中國來講這樣的定義整體下來是一個惡性的海巡的艦艇撞擊大陸漁船然後導致翻覆跟死亡的一個惡性的殘暴的執法型"},{"start":17325.831,"end":17328.352,"text":"國台辦、福建省台辦、福州市台辦跟我密集電話都在通話"},{"start":17355.697,"end":17364.615,"text":"也就是說這件事情怎麼散了我告訴你一件事你看過公雞跟蚱蜢在談判嗎?公雞跟蚱蜢談判你有沒有看過?"},{"start":17369.141,"end":17369.981,"text":"我們常常也在談判過"},{"start":17395.575,"end":17395.755,"text":"老媽早上"},{"start":17422.017,"end":17442.792,"text":"小匯委員、蘇小匯委員私底下跟我聊天,他去過金門去了回來,他曉得金門馬祖的民眾好委屈喔!我的委屈你知道嗎?你不要以為你委屈欸!署長委屈啊!邱太三主委委屈啊!我的委屈你知道嗎?委員"},{"start":17445.126,"end":17448.811,"text":"報告委員．就是大象跟螞蟻在談戀愛嘛如果我們內部跟委員報告"},{"start":17453.78,"end":17474.138,"text":"我們的同仁從談判桌上回來也說了他們的心聲當他們在談判桌上的時候看到內部對我的攻擊對事件的誤解跟對事件的扭曲變成談判桌上對方拿出來作為談判的材料的時候他們也覺得心傷"},{"start":17476.24,"end":17496.434,"text":"我了然於胸如果我們全國能夠一致對外呼籲中國能夠擱置正義然後能夠回歸人道這件事情的力量會往哪一邊更有力量就會招攬如果都是完全不一樣主任委員我告訴你面對的就是武力面對的就是武力"},{"start":17502.574,"end":17516.358,"text":"我看你海巡你有20條還是有30條它的白船可以出動300條我所以在國防委員會質詢的時候我告訴這些中將上將啊你們哪一個人看過萬箭齊發你們看過嗎你們看過那個幾發我們認為這個世界是有公理跟正義的世界我們面對的是2300萬人民的力量跟公理與正義今天我們世界上有公民正義的話是連加薩"},{"start":17529.961,"end":17531.062,"text":"今天法律的事情歸法律"},{"start":17557.984,"end":17562.286,"text":"我們人道的方案充滿了我們對家屬撫慰的真誠委員您也知道"},{"start":17578.894,"end":17579.134,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":17601.756,"end":17602.897,"text":"我認為是高度的不均衡"},{"start":17620.277,"end":17632.302,"text":"如果我們的民意能夠展現這樣高度的團結來呼籲中國趕快放棄政治然後能夠趕快回歸人道的話今天或許就不會拖這麼久"},{"start":17636.343,"end":17650.637,"text":"可是我們必須堅持的問題為什麼到現在我沒辦法去就全案做道歉我們很願意就我們應該要給予家屬就因為沒有錄影帶的部分我們讓他堅持我說主委這個事情要善了趕快處理"},{"start":17655.649,"end":17681.141,"text":"我們就是秉持這樣的善意一路下來其實委員們都幫忙很多其實委員們都幫忙很多你們不需要去回答問題嘛有底下的先去打嘛打了以後再說嘛是不是你現在把事情講到這個地步你們現在海軍出去有看到桑文的船嗎?"},{"start":17682.759,"end":17686.46,"text":"一艘都不見了還看到船嗎全部躲起來了"},{"start":17689.4,"end":17712.031,"text":"如果中國能夠在海洋的管理海洋秩序的管理上面其實這是雙方可以共同努力來維護我們的兩岸協同的執法長期以來有共同相守的相同的價值跟相同執法的規則"},{"start":17716.184,"end":17727.798,"text":"執法自對你們底下檯面下是有聯繫的啊為什麼都沒有越界呢都沒有越過禁限制海域我們海巡有沒有越過他們的船也沒越過啊為什麼"},{"start":17728.962,"end":17758.201,"text":"所以這一次把這樣的一個單獨的個案執法的事件升高到這樣的政治的連結我們真的是不樂見我們也覺得我們也認為應該要呼籲不要用這樣的政治的連結來處理他們也在抓不是我們在抓他們也抓那我是說他們的船越過界了越過界了當然我們去抓在追逐的過程在追逐的過程碰到事情了現在"},{"start":17759.226,"end":17785.913,"text":"他在藉著這個事故,所以就散了其實發生過,就是個案處理,但是這一次升高為政治是一切問題的根源我跟你講話,我覺得你還可以再低調一點我的勸,因為我也很忍耐,我也很委屈我希望管主委你也忍耐一點,你該委屈也委屈一點"},{"start":17787.338,"end":17815.965,"text":"今天美國的航空母艦不會五艘同時出現在金門的海域不可能的同時出現在馬祖的海域也不可能的啦我們水還太淺我們沒有那樣的意思所以如果說正面要交戰的話美國也不允許你開任何一槍一砲包括這一次整個過程以來都沒有挑釁沒有升高政治國防部長夏令開我太清楚了我在馬祖我太清楚了所以我希望就是說"},{"start":17816.966,"end":17817.312,"text":"這件事情"},{"start":17822.537,"end":17843.891,"text":"委員,從發生到現在所有的專訪我全部都婉拒唯一就是到立法院來被堵麥的時候我才有發言而這些發言都是回應媒體的問題的時候所做的發言委員,發言的時候回答問題我們只是必須要捍衛海巡執法的正當性而所為"},{"start":17851.075,"end":17872.503,"text":"我們時間到,所以要請謝謝委員好不好,忍受忍耐,盡量忍耐委員我想我們都密切保持你們有點管道跟大陸談判嘛,一直這樣下去嗎?你一直這樣下去,我們金門法組現在已經有點和平區了欸這樣搞的話,又變成前線了我們又變成前線了我們要出去打魚,我們靠海為生欸"},{"start":17873.163,"end":17898.385,"text":"所以我想委員大家也知道雙方大概就這件事情也持續的都不斷的在溝通但是因為有一些基本的堅持所以呢有已經合意的地方但是也還是不一致的地方所以繼續溝通啦你不要說我當論華記夏立言副主席跑去幫忙講個話黑的嗎你們把他唱紅有必要嗎是不是"},{"start":17900.116,"end":17924.87,"text":"董事長的家理言、副主席去能夠去把這些事情散了都是好事我們團結一致嘛好不好我想因為時間的關係我就不講了那個高金委員對我已經很不爽了好不好謝謝我們陳水深委員的支持你們兩位都是我的好朋友好同事我對你們沒有任何的惡意管吧我們在這邊那麼久了我跟你有沒有惡言相向過"},{"start":17926.428,"end":17927.149,"text":"有請我們高金昭偉委員諮詢"},{"start":17947.571,"end":17962.111,"text":"好,非常謝謝召委我還是接續一下陳雪生委員剛剛說的我不同意這個主委您剛剛的說法說忍耐也不同意這個邱泰山主委您說的忍耐今天如果我們有真相"},{"start":17963.012,"end":17966.875,"text":"我們不需要忍耐我們今天有日英日英我們不需要忍耐我們大可以在談判桌上把這些證據通通呈現出來然後讓對岸的人清楚知道不是我們撞死了兩條人命而是這當中的細節都非常的清楚而不是你們今天一昧的說把所有的資料"},{"start":17988.03,"end":17988.17,"text":"交給了檢調"},{"start":18018.03,"end":18018.23,"text":"有請署長"},{"start":18040.031,"end":18048.8,"text":"我們的署長呢他不僅僅是海巡署的署長他也是政務副主委而且也是我們的專業的海軍也是我們的這個國安系統你曾經待過這麼多的地方所以我相信您也不樂見"},{"start":18057.81,"end":18058.01,"text":"是的"},{"start":18085.02,"end":18102.706,"text":"好現在我要就幾個問題因為今天我聽到了幾個問題第一個問題為什麼會有那麼多的質疑就是第一個你們說海巡子事發過程非常短暫因為很忙救人沒有錄影收證"},{"start":18103.726,"end":18122.846,"text":"然後你們又再改口說陸船舌形巨減然後不慎翻覆造成了四個人落海到有人質疑了你們之後你們又改口講了海巡署的艦艇是在高速追逐的狀況之下它的船身多次的接觸剛剛你又說"},{"start":18125.649,"end":18140.229,"text":"其實兩岸之間的協同執法有非常多次而且你們是有密切聯繫而且我剛剛又聽到您剛剛說其實這件事情不是突發事件"},{"start":18141.05,"end":18167.398,"text":"您是初三的時候大年初三也就是2月12號的時候其實你們就已經發現這所謂的三五船所以也就是說剛剛您的回應讓我們清楚知道不是突然在海上突然出現而是接到了所有的訊息之後你們按照SOP的流程來做一些"},{"start":18169.799,"end":18197.177,"text":"你們應該準備的工作那現在我要問的第一個問題是依據海岸巡防激光海域執法作業的規範的第9條的規定我們的海巡人員執行職務的時候應該要依照規定穿著制服或者是出示證明文件並且要隨時照相、錄音、錄影或者是用其他收證的方式保全相關的事證"},{"start":18198.098,"end":18207.642,"text":"以為移送主管機關查處的依據除了這個之外也是要保護我們的海巡弟兄對吧第10條第2項你也規定應該要與被檢的船舶保持距離然後要以雷達監控同時全程錄影照相存證"},{"start":18222.727,"end":18248.52,"text":"並且要依照規定通報反映所以按照我們海岸巡防機關海域執法作業規範第9條第10條你們早就應該要準備這些東西了而不是對外的宣稱說你們沒有密入器你們沒有打開錄音的這個裝置你們並沒有全程錄影而且您剛剛還準備了一個很大的照片"},{"start":18249.48,"end":18253.184,"text":"這個人掉下去了海裡面你們有時間照相那就表示其實你們全程是有錄影的只是你們不願意拿出來所以你剛剛講很多次你們在做這些處理的時候其實是有碰撞"},{"start":18268.061,"end":18272.882,"text":"好 請署長您回答我的問題你們有沒有全程錄音錄影如果沒有的話就是造成這一次的那麼多的問題的產生你們要不要道歉當然已經道歉了你們要不要懲處相關的人員你們有沒有一些行政程序的報告簡單回答好 謝謝昭偉給我這個機會說明"},{"start":18294.167,"end":18306.837,"text":"第一個,出山報案的那艘船,我們不能確定它是不是三、五船舶,有可能是漁船,有可能是貨船,有可能是其他的船艇。好,謝謝署長您的回應,謝謝。我現在能不能再詢問您,您不能夠去確定它是不是三、五船舶,那麼你們應該會有通報記錄吧?是。"},{"start":18318.567,"end":18336.544,"text":"而且這個通報紀錄就我了解就我了解其實你們在記者會是有公布的你們公布的通聯時間是12點41分然後距離你們修正後公布的案發時間是下午1點10分足足相差了30分鐘"},{"start":18338.366,"end":18353.247,"text":"最關鍵的這些通聯記錄卻不公布您剛剛又說您沒有辦法清楚知道它是不是三網船隻所以我們現在與根本的證據都不清楚知道你怎麼可以回答我這個呢那有沒有錄音"},{"start":18354.108,"end":18381.777,"text":"不同時間,初三的報案是民眾打118跟我們報案好,那14號的呢?14號是我們的雷達監控有快速目標進入到我們的境線之處好,既然有了快速的這樣子的一個雷達訊息你們應該很清楚知道就開始有通報機制了吧?當然這些通報機制的錄音有沒有?都有能不能提供到我們委員會來?"},{"start":18383.357,"end":18388.78,"text":"有沒有交給檢調單位?那可不可以提供到我們的委員會來?我想這不是你能不能,這是我召委到時候會不會安排第二個問題,對不起,您的意思就是有錄音所以我很明確地說,你能不能明確地回答我有沒有錄音錄影?"},{"start":18409.927,"end":18433.323,"text":"你所謂的錄影 剛剛你講我們什麼救難什麼2月14號有沒有錄音錄影錄音有我們執管的這一部分的錄音全程從你們發現了這個所謂的三五船隻一直到落海你們如何救人 這個所有的錄音過程都有嗎"},{"start":18434.664,"end":18441.928,"text":"好 謝謝本席會待會做一個結論請你們提供給委員會第二個第二個第二個第二個我要問您的是為什麼你們不公佈完整的無線電通連接我們沒有不公佈因為這個已經交給檢調好交給檢調那沒關係"},{"start":18459.357,"end":18475.891,"text":"我會讓你們提供給我們委員會那第二個問題就是海岸巡防激光海運執法作業的規範第10條有要求要雷達監控海巡署有沒有掌握事件相關的船隻的雷達軌跡圖有或沒有"},{"start":18477.125,"end":18479.266,"text":"當我們去協商的時候有沒有提供這個錄音榜給對岸"},{"start":18504.638,"end":18519.723,"text":"為什麼不能提供?這個不就是很重要的證據之一嗎?當你們在談判的時候這不就是很重要的一個證據之一嗎?如果趙薇你講重要的證據之一,把這個雷達的整個過程"},{"start":18521.283,"end":18540.13,"text":"一公佈．給他們一看．他就知道當時的情形是怎麼樣那當然啊這就最好啦就要提起所有的問題啊不是嗎這個東西現在都是要有檢調來決定我不同意你的說法謝謝署長你的回應所以我要必須講的是今天很確定的是說有錄音還有雷達軌跡圖所以這兩個其實都有的"},{"start":18546.032,"end":18546.692,"text":"海軍司令部副參謀長詹副參謀長"},{"start":18579.466,"end":18603.612,"text":"謝謝 請把我的時間暫停一下好 請問一下自從海巡署強化了平時和戰時的轉換機制之後海巡署的禁案雷達情資是不是已經透過連線侵傳給海軍的連程戰係你們雙方其實是有互換情資 有沒有這個事情是的 我們跟海巡署之間有支援協定的簽署 有情資的分享有嗎是"},{"start":18604.272,"end":18630.921,"text":"好 我要再請問您兩岸因為這個金門撞船事件關係越來越緊張了這不僅僅只是海巡署的問題不僅僅是海委會的問題也不僅僅是陸委會的問題未來可能會關係到國防的問題所以請問海軍的連程戰係可不可以公佈你們所掌握的雷達軌跡圖然後跟我們的海巡單位的航軌"},{"start":18632.862,"end":18659.131,"text":"把他一起來公布是跟委員報告因為針對這一次的事件來講我們連城系統所掌控的目標並沒有包含到這麼小的目標那這個目標在我們連城系統掌握的目標的部分像這種近岸水域小型的目標的部分在我們連城系統是沒有把他掌握沒有不好意思喔前海軍的郡長他有指出你們以前有大城系統"},{"start":18660.491,"end":18682.619,"text":"這個大程系統也就是現在的連程戰系你們的連程戰系已經跟海巡近岸的雷達強制你們透過連線、勤船、海軍連程戰鬥系統了所以你不能告訴我說連這麼小的你們都看不到因為你們的訊息都已經互傳了"},{"start":18684.54,"end":18707.31,"text":"各位委員報告,我們跟海巡署之間的目標的監控的部分,我們是有責任的分屬,那就像委員所指的沒有沒有沒有,那如果是如你所講的話,你的意思是說你監測你的一個系統,然後海巡署監測一個系統,是這樣的意思嗎?那如果是這樣的意思的話,為什麼你們在媒體上公佈的時候,你們不去做一些澄清呢?"},{"start":18708.03,"end":18730.97,"text":"因為現在我所拿到的這個媒體上的公布是說你們跟海巡署已經形成了一個侵船系統所以侵船系統是有嗎?是有所以只要是海巡署搜尋到的所有的軌跡你們也都會有嗎?就連程系統的限制來講的話是連程系統上是沒有的"},{"start":18732.595,"end":18756.637,"text":"你講沒有沒關係我覺得國防部還有這個今天我們的所有的這個在場的官員的回應我們至少今天離清楚了兩件事情一有錄音二有錄影三我們的國防部其實對這件事情來說你們不能夠排除在外因為兩岸因為兩岸情勢慢慢的升高了之後其實它危急的"},{"start":18757.378,"end":18758.399,"text":"國防部也好"},{"start":18774.986,"end":18784.979,"text":"海巡署也好海委會也好我們的陸委會也好你們必須好好處理這樣的事情不然的話就是愧對2300萬台灣人民的安全謝謝"},{"start":18789.117,"end":18806.752,"text":"委員我還是要說明一下,剛剛我講有的錄音是我們的指管通信的錄音錄影是我們的雷達,您問我是有沒有雷達的累積圖,我說有另外您看到救難的那些畫面是我們的35頓艇,我們一共來了7艘艇"},{"start":18809.494,"end":18810.515,"text":"至於本席張磊未來會尋求什麼樣的資料我再提醒一下"},{"start":18825.874,"end":18849.817,"text":"因為你既然你要在這裡告訴我的話 我要提醒一下 我們立法院是有這個職權調閱所有的資料不要告訴我是國防機密 也不要告訴我已經交給檢調了 所以不提供給本委員會好不好 各位我們一定提供 謝謝到時候我到時候會邀請你們提供什麼資料 我會再告訴你們 非常清楚的告訴你們 我們一定配合"},{"start":18852.857,"end":18860.747,"text":"謝謝我們高金召委的諮詢按照我們召委的宣告現在我們就休息20分鐘用餐謝謝大家"},{"start":20337.566,"end":20353.365,"text":"現在我們繼續開會但是有一些官員還沒有回到位置上我們是不是等一下他們回到位置上以後我們才開始請問一下志強委員可以嗎好 謝謝是沈博恩委員 對不起可以嗎 等他們回座好 謝謝"},{"start":20379.462,"end":20390.789,"text":"好,我們現在兩位主委都到了,然後署長呢?對不起,沒看到你,好,不好意思謝謝,我們繼續開會,我們請沈博洋委員來質詢好,那謝謝主席,那請這個海委會的這個主委好,有請管主委"},{"start":20414.05,"end":20427.335,"text":"主委好因為時間有限所以我就不要浪費太多時間因為今天早上大家已經花了非常多的時間想要釐清這整件事情但其實這整件事情對我們來說最重要的是中國的步步進逼"},{"start":20427.955,"end":20444.375,"text":"他是一個灰色地帶的作戰在這10年來講中國用類似的方式達到這樣的一個作戰已經多達到82次了所以這每一次的灰色領域的作戰對台灣都是一個主權的威脅那不知道主委對於反送中事件是否熟悉"},{"start":20447.59,"end":20471.462,"text":"反射中事件也是先由病調犯罪的一個方式然後再藉由修訂逃犯條例然後一直造成香港事件的爆發這是中國非常典型的手段所以今天在這個有限的時間因為非本委只有10分鐘我就只先把這樣的一個事實還有這樣的一個框架先釐清釐清之後我只問兩個問題就是我寫在上面的一個就是我們對未來的預判到底會是什麼樣子"},{"start":20472.262,"end":20478.235,"text":"以及我們對於過去的透明措施應該要怎樣才可以預防這樣的事情發生 抵擋中國的一個攻擊"},{"start":20480.011,"end":20501.342,"text":"好那第一件事情就是呢中國這整體的框架對於我們的攻擊呢一直以來都是法律跟輿論不斷的交錯大家可以看到在2月14號國台辦先定調我們的執法是粗暴跟危險然後到2月17號宣稱我們的這個水域不存在這件事情之所以重要是因為他要否定台灣執法的一個權利進而去擴張中國執法的權利"},{"start":20503.223,"end":20532.051,"text":"所以單單光是擴張執法權利這件事情就不是那麼簡單的說我們在取締快艇翻覆的一個事實而已而是中國想要藉由這樣的一個藉口去擴張在我們這邊的執法權利連我們的國防部長都說這個可能會建立一個新常態那2月18號是大家比較容易忽略的是王毅在受訪的時候呢定調了這是一個中國跟反對台獨那我想先問一下這個主委請問我們這件事情跟台獨有什麼關係"},{"start":20532.831,"end":20560.683,"text":"完全沒有關係報告委員這是一個單獨個別的執法事件那其實過去也曾經發生過那我們一定可以找到一個很方便很容易來好好處理的一個SOP因為我們其實是有經驗的而且兩岸的海事上面的工作過去長期是在救生救難也好協同執法也好在這一方面相當程度是有一個善的橋樑"},{"start":20562.043,"end":20578.539,"text":"謝謝主委所以他既然跟台獨沒有關係的話為什麼中國要這樣定調那就是因為中國想要藉由這樣做出一個政治上的操作因而在這個之後因為台獨的這個操作變得有點無力也造成了在2月20號大量的出現這個所謂的虛假消息我們看下一頁"},{"start":20579.46,"end":20597.506,"text":"就是剛剛我們在博弈委員的就已經有講過這個關於我們管委員的一個虛假對話想要製造這樣的一個輿論風向進而去定調一個法律的框架在下一頁所以現在我們在遇到的狀況是什麼呢就是大家今天一直在討論到底他是不是一個撞船事件他到底要不要使用這樣的名詞"},{"start":20598.226,"end":20624.62,"text":"在這邊告訴大家在2月27號之前中國根本就沒有用撞船這兩個字他是從國台辦開始定調這個叫214惡性撞船事件所以這跟我們的教育部怎麼規定撞這個字一點關係都沒有他就是中國想要製造一個新的名字跟新的法律框架讓我們在這個框架下面來討論這個案件所以從那個時候開始呢台灣竟然還有投書可以同步"},{"start":20625.2,"end":20626.141,"text":"我想問一下 幫我換下一位"},{"start":20654.11,"end":20675.335,"text":"當然可以看到在這邊在整個這個網路的這個聲量裡面我們主委應該也可以看到他整個214惡性撞船事件出現大量的文章跟大量的協同操作並藉由沖平社跟國台辦相關去定調這樣的一個字眼所以接下來我想問主委的事情就是幫我換下一位再下一位"},{"start":20676.809,"end":20701.704,"text":"如果我們今天這個事件的發生從他一開始操作輿論然後再去擴大他的執法的權利然後再一直想要讓我們這邊做承認跟道歉去承認這樣的一個新常態我認為這個在以往我們看過八十幾個案例之下已經到大概第五個階段了所以接下來想要請教主委因為這件事情還沒有結束那請問海洋會對這件事情的預判是什麼也就是接下來還會發生什麼事情"},{"start":20704.545,"end":20729.903,"text":"報告委員海巡署或海委會也好遇到這件事情處理到現在我們就是盡全力在溝通的部分能夠越來越趨近然後去找到共識這個過程其實是有很多的階段每一個階段對方的訴求我們沒有辦法達成共識的部分就一題一題的去解決"},{"start":20730.503,"end":20731.143,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":20755.034,"end":20758.758,"text":"我先簡單的問一句就是當時有想到他們會放這個所謂的假的line的截圖嗎?"},{"start":20772.527,"end":20790.574,"text":"其實我相當的震撼當然在這個LINE的截圖之前我已經就被誤解了很多例如說我請九屆的法務院是我沒有想到會操作到這種地方或者是中國台辦會讓我能寫都是意料之外的"},{"start":20790.894,"end":20819.057,"text":"所以這邊我想要提醒一點就是中國在這以往的八十幾個案例的操作常常出現這樣的情形除了造假的截圖之外他們也很常做一件事情譬如說假設這邊我們有相關營救到的人員一旦回到了中國之後呢他馬上就請他翻工並做成大量的短影片然後在網路上散播所以如果我們今天能夠預判這件事情發生的話那我們可以事先在我們把人放回去之前應該要讓國人知道中國可能的操作手法"},{"start":20819.717,"end":20824.22,"text":"所以這邊呢我只是 這邊就只是一個建議就是說接下來很有可能他們還有各式"},{"start":20839.771,"end":20860.96,"text":"除了這個我們知道海巡署這邊是非常的委屈啦但是還是要告訴大家讓國人知道我們處理這些事情的SOP可能是什麼因為接下來中國可能會有的動作他因為他的定調叫做惡性撞船事件而藉由我們台灣這些所謂把撞船事件提高到這個不管是在政府的層次跟媒體的層次之下"},{"start":20861.38,"end":20884.942,"text":"他接下來想要做的就是他要怎麼去定掉惡心以及他要怎麼去把排毒這件事情帶進來所以如果我們不能讓國人知道中國的操作手法的話後面他再丟出來任何的輿論我們可能就會節節敗退更不要講說他可能還會製造新的法律框架所以這是一個簡單的建議接下來因為只剩2分鐘所以我想換一下一個主題就是因為我們剛剛講的是對於未來的預判"},{"start":20885.783,"end":20906.372,"text":"我們現在需要比較知道的就是在過往的這個過程當中因為我聽到今天早上一直到剛剛下午之前大家都一直在提密錄器但是密錄器其實它攝影的範圍其實非常非常的小如果我們今天要知道整體的全局的話如果我們想要知道到底發生什麼事情的話密錄器顯然是不夠的嘛"},{"start":20907.012,"end":20930.288,"text":"所以我們在這邊整理了幾個各個國家在應對這種衝突的時候不同的手段那我這邊就不一一念我會把資料交給海委會再幫我換下一頁大家可以看到在中國的海警船跟其他的對峙的時候搜證的船隻是在第三台也就是它不是在這一台船上面做拍攝再換下一張然後以及像這個是雷射攻擊它也是在遠處做拍攝"},{"start":20932.534,"end":20947.125,"text":"像這一個非國的船隻跟中國的海警船在對峙的時候很明顯是由空拍的方式做拍攝也因此問題根本就一直不是在密錄器當我們把問題一直糾結在密錄器的時候其實又是掉入對方所設定的框架"},{"start":20947.705,"end":20962.311,"text":"我們需要知道的是在灰色領域作戰最好的方式菲律賓從2023年開始做的事情就是用第三隻第四隻的船隻或者無人機或者飛機去把這些畫面發下來及時的公佈給大眾"},{"start":20963.371,"end":20988.079,"text":"所以大家都可以知道說中國的不管是海警還是他的小男人他在怎麼去做這種灰色領域的步步驚逼那我知道所以其實呢我們光是說密錄器到底要多少什麼這已經是個假議題而是說我們如果要做到菲律賓去年做的這些事情的話我們所需要的預算應該要有多少需要的人力應該要有多少海巡這邊呢應該要針對這件事情做一個盤點"},{"start":20989.419,"end":20989.86,"text":"最後幾個短短的建議只剩10秒鐘"},{"start":21007.955,"end":21007.975,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":21026.902,"end":21052.509,"text":"好 謝謝沈伯陽委員的質詢也謝謝關委員在這邊要提醒一下沈伯陽委員抱歉您剛剛在質詢的時候有指控我說是配合對岸來這個排案我必須請您這個未來請您不要這樣子雖然雖然你沒有指名道姓是我但是呢因為我是召委這個案子是我排的所以你在影射到我所以我在這邊特別跟你提醒一下第二件事情我今天會用這個名詞"},{"start":21054.469,"end":21076.648,"text":"對不起,這是你個人的意思,所以請你在國會電場也尊重召委,好不好?然後第二件事情就是呢,我今天為什麼會用撞船事件,也不是我個人提出這個名詞。我認為是在2月22號海巡署的記者會還有檢察官都明確的說有碰撞這樣的事實,所以我引用,這個是一個客觀的現象。"},{"start":21078.55,"end":21082.053,"text":"主席有請管主委有請管主委 謝謝羅委員好"},{"start":21107.369,"end":21121.978,"text":"主委其實上午我聽了非常多的質詢在內政委員會待了很久那你不斷的強調為了維繫談判的氣氛保持善意所以很多談判的過程內容細節你都不對外透露對不對"},{"start":21123.204,"end":21138.565,"text":"我們一直都沒有透露我想我們我支持這一個做法我們一直都沒有透露但是今天在這裡的時候沒關係我跟你講你遇到國會質詢你必須有答詢權答詢的義務這一點沒有問題那我想請教你知道上午的時候王定宇臉書"},{"start":21140.107,"end":21154.571,"text":"報料對岸談判代表提出的要求就是臺灣海巡人員到中國接受訓問請問有無此事我沒有看到這樣的報導我們是不是請我們副署長來說明好不好時間暫停好我們時間暫停了後有請副署長委員好在溝通的過程當中陸方有曾經舉過這樣子"},{"start":21169.716,"end":21178.68,"text":"所以換言之這個訊息就是你們告訴王定宇委員的嗎既然已經證實有這個訊息那我想請問你委員這一次媒體有很多訊息被報導出去沒關係我要跟那個管委員說你今天來這裡報告你就該把這個事項在這裡報告"},{"start":21199.161,"end":21217.059,"text":"你透過 你們透過任何方式剛剛也被你們的人員證實是你們透露給王定宇那就違反剛剛你一直強調遇到你不想回答的問題就是說今天試射談判機敏你不便透露試射偵查不公開不便透露遇到王定宇就會轉彎啊"},{"start":21218.32,"end":21237.146,"text":"沒關係,你要試射談判的內容不公佈,要保持善意,我可以接受。我就問目前幾個大陸方面公開的要求,不是談判內容。國台辦發言公開要求,臺方盡快公佈事實真相。我今天一整天聽,你認為事實真相已經公佈了嗎?對不對?"},{"start":21238.356,"end":21242.842,"text":"交給檢方偵查嘛所以你到目前為止你也不認為你們公布的事實真相那我們今天在這裡幹什麼我們在這邊幹什麼我們要的不是事實真相嗎"},{"start":21256.258,"end":21274.913,"text":"委員你不用那麼快一直在想要設法第二個問你嚴懲相關責任人我想請問你嚴懲相關責任人也做不到嘛因為你認為海巡沒有執法過大嘛海巡沒有執法過大嘛你剛剛從早上到現在是不是認為海巡沒有執法過大連這個都無法回答"},{"start":21275.233,"end":21283.861,"text":"目前海巡署的基證顯示,海巡署並沒有過失,但是所有的一切都需要檢查官方會員徵簽。我們跟家屬的道歉,如果有所措施,報告委員,當事證的真相還沒有釐清的時候,我接下來問您"},{"start":21301.377,"end":21311.835,"text":"第一個顯然你只有針對錄影的部分會道歉希望你在談判秉持這一點你們也說過不會書面致歉也不會口頭道歉除了錄影之外你們說得到這一點嗎?"},{"start":21315.378,"end":21321.101,"text":"做得到?做不到?你到現在為止採的東西,你剛今天早上跟委員尋答,你就說沒有責任啊?好,我再請教你下一個問題,海巡人員非常辛苦,我們大家都在當他的後盾,你認同吧?"},{"start":21334.843,"end":21346.049,"text":"我們都要當海巡人員的後盾,對不對?謝謝您。要當海巡人員的後盾,要建構海巡人可以有安全、有尊嚴的執法環境,對不對?"},{"start":21346.963,"end":21366.56,"text":"我們盡全力要做到這一點好 謝謝你認同那我想請問你專業領導算不算是一個建構海巡的一個專研跟安全執法的一個項目領導當然領導是很重要需要卓越的領導我想請問你不算代理主委周梅武你的前一任海巡海委會主委是誰"},{"start":21368.683,"end":21374.505,"text":"李綜威主委的經歷是什麼?海軍中將、海巡署署長、海委會主委之前當過海軍部司令、海軍艦隊指揮官。你有任何海巡經驗嗎?"},{"start":21390.849,"end":21395.732,"text":"你有沒有任何海巡經驗在當這個主委之前?有沒有?有沒有?你沒有啦!你沒有啦!我跟您講海委會主委海巡署的上級主管不是讓你來這裡當實習生欸!今天待會我知道要講這個社會公平我應該跟你來公平一下那你知道聽過降帥無能累死三軍嗎?"},{"start":21419.565,"end":21424.909,"text":"無能包括專業吧!專業上的無能也是一種無能吧!你有聽過外行、領導、內行?來!沒關係我知道你當然沒辦法回答這句話齁!我要請教您齁!我跟你講我從頭到尾不怪您啦!我怪的是今天用你的陳建仁"},{"start":21443.081,"end":21443.621,"text":"這句話誰講的?這句話誰講的?"},{"start":21463.029,"end":21463.99,"text":"請問你,為什麼這次沒有密錄器?"},{"start":21490.752,"end":21493.096,"text":"為什麼專業的海巡署長出身的李仲威他跟你講的SOP就有密錄器你不專業的管碧玲當主委你就沒有密錄器"},{"start":21505.592,"end":21508.235,"text":"你不是說沒有嗎?現在又有了嗎?又要再變嗎?我問你現在有沒有嗎?只要有跟沒有啊你不要再跟我講你已經重複100遍而這艘艇裝不上攝影設備但是密錄器多大?密錄器是有的"},{"start":21525.512,"end":21526.875,"text":"有 交出來 有沒有交出來各位媒體朋友啊 各位我們所有議員同仁我今天很高興啊 管主委說有密錄器啊"},{"start":21537,"end":21543.022,"text":"所以從頭到尾說沒有錄影都是騙人的嗎?非常謝謝你啊手持式攝錄影機有沒有用?警察人員有密錄器海巡人員要不要用密錄器?很多正義法官判決前都先看密錄器密錄器可以保護自己非常重要這句話誰講的?"},{"start":21564.211,"end":21593.013,"text":"誰講的密錄器這件事情綠營的立委趙正宇在質詢李中威講的李中威特別強調都有密錄器而且是使用的密錄器不是像你吊在旁邊晾乾的密錄器然後跟你講手持搖晃無法用掛在身上會手持搖晃嗎密錄器你現在叫出密錄器來你說畫面不清楚我們可以接受啊你現在跟我講有密錄器你又跟我講密錄器沒有用因為用手持手持搖晃又沒有用"},{"start":21594.281,"end":21596.984,"text":"最後法院裁判不罰的原因是什麼你知道嗎?"},{"start":21620.273,"end":21623.959,"text":"因為兩次要求警方都拿不出密錄器的錄影"},{"start":21624.676,"end":21650.081,"text":"然後法院的判決是什麼?他認為今天你沒有秘錄器沒有辦法證實你執法的所謂的證據性所以像這種情況之下他也只能無奈的判沒有違法以這個個案來講秘錄器有沒有不是還原真相好啦好啦我告訴你上次這樣講你的報告還說要補充所有的秘錄器你不自己打點自己嗎秘錄器這麼不重要"},{"start":21651.661,"end":21653.603,"text":"沒關係你說這個也不重要我告訴你李宗威你要打臉立法院你要打臉我想請問你"},{"start":21661.873,"end":21684.51,"text":"2016年的管碧玲那時候縣執部在偵查的時候縣執部有一個環節沒有錄影請問您你怎麼評價縣執部的報告委員那次的質詢完全沒有談錄影的問題在臉書上談錄影的問題的時候是和質詢來來來你看2月7號2016年2016年的臉書我唸給你聽這一點說香話能力留下來有追搜證錄影資料執行執行暫停"},{"start":21691.744,"end":21697.548,"text":"追收證錄影資料,證實關鍵簽志願同意書根本沒錄影,正是國軍憲兵史上的大烏龍,該下台負責的要有自覺,真的不能拿基層當替死鬼。為什麼需要藐視國會罪?"},{"start":21717.844,"end":21730.977,"text":"因為就有這種官員曾有說瞎話啊說過的話通通不認啊我要跟各位講今天我們都支持海巡但是一個無能的一個主委一時累死海巡執法人員"},{"start":21732.076,"end":21752.864,"text":"密錄器錄影沒有落實這個SOP不要推給基層當替死鬼我們都是海巡人員的執法的後盾但是你沒有落實SOP造成海巡人員有理說不聽這就是2016年的管碧玲批評今天的管碧玲謝謝那是段章取義好 非常謝謝樂智強委員的質詢也謝謝管組委 謝謝我們繼續請賴世寶委員質詢 謝謝"},{"start":21764.752,"end":21771.7,"text":"謝謝主席及各位先進有請陸委會的邱主委以及海洋委員管主委兩位長官好我們看到的"},{"start":21788.004,"end":21806.648,"text":"今天國防部人家他的標題就是跟我們召委列的題目一樣這只有你們兩大單位一個陸委會一個海巡署立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議專題報告還是什麼專題報告題目都沒有"},{"start":21812.711,"end":21835.936,"text":"沒有這個內容好歹有個標題吧標題這麼重要一個title這麼重要我覺得很奇怪啦齁特別兩位當過立委管主委又是也當了好幾屆嘛齁因為你在立法院的經驗我們都很清楚我在立法院多年都很清楚你對他這個報告案的title如果有意見你時間找到溝通啊"},{"start":21838.783,"end":21843.012,"text":"我請問要主委、要管主委你找我們招委溝通了沒有?"},{"start":21844.707,"end":21870.688,"text":"委員報告有關於這個部分確實是對張偉有失禮之處,我也特別的表達了,在這個部分應該受到指責,我也願意接受指責。好,謝謝啊!這個,那管主委就已經跟他道歉了嗎?啊,求主委你要不要也跟他道歉一下?你這個,這個藐視,藐視我們高軍署的張偉勒?好像,好像他是你下屬一樣,他是不是你下屬勒?怎麼會這樣子呢?"},{"start":21873.783,"end":21875.984,"text":"你不是無良...你不是什麼無孕良貧吶"},{"start":21896.596,"end":21897.516,"text":"我並沒有改他的題目我只是把題目沒有寫出來"},{"start":21925.325,"end":21954.04,"text":"那主要的原因那就是你不同意啊你不是不同意啦你是讓我不學他這個題目我們本來想要在今天口頭報告的時候或書面報告的時候我們來老實講我們都很清楚在立法院多年都知道面對召委的題目如果政務官不能同意的話兩個做法第一個去跟召委談對談了以後請召委改改到覺得欸?這樣會三年我做過召委好幾次啊我有列出題目"},{"start":21955.68,"end":21956.5,"text":"全國委員會主委、海洋委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":21965.967,"end":21985.368,"text":"有事好商量面對面好商量第二個題目不改但是內容呢他可以針對題目來做以說這個題目定的不好事實不是這樣子這個題目呢什麼什麼等等這個才是正軌兩位都當過立委啊怎麼會會犯這樣的錯我覺得"},{"start":21989.06,"end":22001.173,"text":"難道邱主委沒有覺得你這樣錯嗎?確實值得再商議那在這一點上我願意向召委表達歉意你也願意道歉喔?"},{"start":22002.17,"end":22003.071,"text":"最近有人在提一個事說你這個"},{"start":22022.708,"end":22052.237,"text":"你在立委其實我們大家都看你的表現是有沒有有用主委在這個事情之前也並沒有什麼太大的問題可是這個事情出來之後我就覺得邱主委一起來你喝夠水可以了再請邱主委謝謝這個事情到目前為止你不覺得兩岸的惡意螺旋上升嗎請邱主委先回答"},{"start":22053.1,"end":22054.742,"text":"對岸有惡意啊對岸有惡意啊當然我們要"},{"start":22070.544,"end":22087.159,"text":"報告委員我剛剛大概有跟幾個委員講過了其實兩岸發生這種意外事件呢過去大概有9次的協商的很快就解決了那我們的人民在大陸大概也有3次所以其實這個處理的機制過去都有經驗那我想這應該是問對岸"},{"start":22091.323,"end":22091.843,"text":"委員我看你這個稍微有一點過度的聯想"},{"start":22120.315,"end":22124.506,"text":"我跟委員提一下差異今天是在金下水域是兩岸人民的漁場"},{"start":22126.323,"end":22126.963,"text":"其實我們大家都很清楚"},{"start":22154.909,"end":22178.282,"text":"大家都知道這個事情廣大型我們被菲律賓撞船了我們就要求幾個嘛這個大陸要的就跟我們一樣委員那個恐怕不一樣喔這個可能要憑憑那歷史的相關調查然後好好看因為就像我講的那是在公海發生的爭議第一個大家要真相全世界都要真相"},{"start":22179.437,"end":22184.17,"text":"你們反對吧?第二個要人道!要人道!好歹要關懷吧!"},{"start":22187.332,"end":22193.116,"text":"這件事情發生以後我第一時間徐副署長可以做見證我請他一定要找高森來超渡來設置靈堂"},{"start":22211.849,"end":22229.999,"text":"主任,請問有沒有跟家屬道歉?有沒有?我們也請了海巡署的署長下去,也致贈了撫慰金,也跟家屬互勉,也上香致敬,也跟亡者致歉,也跟亡者致歉。"},{"start":22236.022,"end":22245.655,"text":"我沒有請你講,請你不要講好不好?抱歉,我們要互相尊重一下請主任委員就他的問題來回答好不好?謝謝我有很多要問的來,周署長請問你周署長"},{"start":22249.884,"end":22263.353,"text":"請問你有沒有展現你的對家屬的關懷?對,這個事情關懷,有沒有?是,有有嗎?親自去嗎?親自道歉嗎?親自表達我們的歉意親自道歉?署長你做得很好,這個事情你為什麼不說?"},{"start":22276.081,"end":22299.414,"text":"其實我們陸陸續續都有發新聞人道關懷署長做其實人家覺得如果主委做更好啦如果主委能夠這樣子你也公開表達歉你一直不願意嘛到目前為止你也不願意表達歉啦最少不管誰怎麼樣最少發生在我們的海域裡面死了人"},{"start":22302.875,"end":22305.143,"text":"好歹我們要表示說,在我家發生這個事,我很抱歉,對他的家屬"},{"start":22310.246,"end":22338.388,"text":"請問你,這個道歉分兩個哦,我也問哦,人道的關懷就是道歉嘛,我也問對死者,或者對死者家屬,對哪一個?或者兩個都是?我有對死者親自到這個殯儀館上香,也向他們追悼那也特別跟死者的家屬當面致意所以等於說你對死者跟死者的家屬都道歉?都有做,都有做那個請問,管主委,你可以做同樣事情嗎?"},{"start":22341.363,"end":22341.663,"text":"好!最後一個都進來!"},{"start":22368.385,"end":22368.505,"text":"執法部長"},{"start":22399.145,"end":22403.027,"text":"如果說按照過往陸委會、海基會處理陸人在臺死亡這種意外或者是臺方的人在大陸死亡這種意外我們有很多的案例"},{"start":22427.478,"end":22433.544,"text":"海基會大概平均都是在3到400萬台幣左右,人民幣大概80萬到100萬。"},{"start":22446.195,"end":22446.355,"text":"忽然這個部分"},{"start":22468.047,"end":22478.553,"text":"已經不是問題不是因為這個問題卡住的所以我們真的也很希望說人道的這個部分解決的時候我們能夠就回歸人道但是目前我們還在努力"},{"start":22489.299,"end":22491.1,"text":"我請海委會跟海巡署"},{"start":22514.465,"end":22517.029,"text":"海洋委員會主委及海巡署署長"},{"start":22523.046,"end":22543.896,"text":"好,謝謝主席,諸位署長今天其實只尋好幾個小時的時間我看前面好幾位委員,包括我前面幾位的羅志祥委員非常關心我們海巡署的態度那中國的大內宣也表達說台灣說我方是叫做冷血所以我想要請問一下,這一次"},{"start":22547.598,"end":22574.999,"text":"針對這個往生者的不幸事件我們還尋數有沒有協助來設立靈堂有的我們在什麼時間設立的委員我們第一線每一個我們替家屬所善盡的祭拜安寧我們都有做持續到現在那我是不是請我們在金門的專案小組許副署長來報告好不好好"},{"start":22577.998,"end":22581.861,"text":"所以我們海巡署是由您親自去上香?那我們去上香了幾次?"},{"start":22606.96,"end":22627.277,"text":"我們每一天都有去白飯上香我們每天都去上香那我想請問中方的人員有沒有來上香過?就目前所知道的是沒有中方的人員從我們設立靈堂到現在沒有來上香過但是有去現場招過魂"},{"start":22628.547,"end":22642.928,"text":"那包括家屬有沒有來上巷是你們海巡署不讓中方人員來靈堂上巷嗎?金門有沒有這樣的事情?殯儀館是開放的隨時只要在開放的時間內都可以去"},{"start":22643.609,"end":22663.738,"text":"好 因為我聽說 中方甚至不讓家屬來上香我希望沒有這樣的事情所以我剛也必須要跟你們確認是不是在我們有沒有不讓家屬來上香所以未來如果有這樣的需求我希望我們海巡署可以盡力來協助盡到我們人道的關懷可不可以做到"},{"start":22666.325,"end":22692.362,"text":"可以好接下來我也想要請問在我們目前跟中方的協商當中我們協商了十多次的次數在協商當中中方有沒有聚焦於要去定義這次的事件是碰撞或是衝撞有沒有聚焦於討論這一個名詞的使用因為它包含了對事件的定義有沒有這樣的事情"},{"start":22694.008,"end":22722.417,"text":"我想這個部分這個中方他對這個本事事件的定性他一直就是定義在一個惡性的一個衝撞的一個範圍之內那經過幾次溝通了以後他們開始有逐漸的把這個惡性的這個名詞拿掉那剩下撞擊的這個部分"},{"start":22723.348,"end":22724.288,"text":"那真相要由誰來釐清?"},{"start":22751.138,"end":22774.625,"text":"必須要由獨立的司法機關來做調查沒有錯現在金門地檢署司法已經介入調查我今天在這裡要再一次提醒這件事這個不是用協商可以來談的包括你們海巡署包括海委會你們也沒有權利沒有資格來對事件做定義因為真相必須交由司法來釐清"},{"start":22776.305,"end":22793.092,"text":"所以中方及我方我們對於撐撞、碰撞的名詞我們有不同的見解你們在協商當中絕對不能退讓因為這不是用協商可以談的真相要交由司法來釐清海巡署、海委會有沒有辦法保證"},{"start":22795.236,"end":22809.84,"text":"我們從頭到尾都堅持說臺灣是一個法治國家一定要經過獨立的公正的司法審判釐清之後才能夠來依據釐清的責任我們一方面勿萬勿眾一方面我們應該要擔負的責任都會擔負起來"},{"start":22812.921,"end":22820.582,"text":"沒有錯我們台灣是一個民主法治的國家所以我認為這一次的事件我現在聽下來我的結論是這是一個在執法過程當中發生的意外事故針對意外事故的部分我們在協商以及要交由司法來釐清但是我們海巡署執法的正當性我們政府絕對要來捍衛這一次的事件本身第一件我想要確認的是這個三無船破"},{"start":22842.546,"end":22860.465,"text":"在臺灣以及中國是不是都是違法的?報告委員,三無的船舶只要無船民他進入到我們的禁限制水域的話依兩岸人民關係條例跟施行細則的規定我們就是可以扣留可以留置人員而且可以有所處置"},{"start":22861.397,"end":22878.46,"text":"但中國方面對於上午傳播他們的查緝跟罰則是什麼他們比我們更重每一艘如果是查緝到的話都是會沒收而且還會罰高額的款然後會要求一定要拆解"},{"start":22879.301,"end":22897.279,"text":"所以三五傳破在中國也是違法的我想請問過去中國有沒有曾經尋求我方的協助尋求我們一起來進行三五傳破的查緝過去有沒有這樣子的案例過去在兩岸"},{"start":22898.148,"end":22900.429,"text":"這不是第一次發生嗎?這並不是一個特例嗎?過去有沒有發生過?"},{"start":22914.478,"end":22916.799,"text":"我們立刻進行搜救沒有延誤"},{"start":22942.352,"end":22945.923,"text":"第一時間進行搜救然後我們救回了"},{"start":22946.923,"end":22973.224,"text":"我們四個人都救回來了那送醫之後有兩位就是因為這個急救無效所以他宣告我們在海上的不管是我們的案件當中發生需要救援或者是海上的救援人道救援過去有沒有發生過尤其是中國的船隻以及中國的船隻這個人員相關需要我們說的過去有沒有發生過"},{"start":22973.945,"end":22973.965,"text":"請報告"},{"start":22992.577,"end":23010.562,"text":"我們在110年我們有8個案件我們救援了8艘中國的船救援了58個人在111年我們有7個案件我們有救援的船數有7艘救援起來的人數有54人"},{"start":23012.145,"end":23037.197,"text":"一百一十二年有兩次案件那麼救援的船只有一艘那麼救援的人數是七個人所以我們在過去三年我們一共發生了17件這樣子救生救難的案件那我們救救援了中國16艘的船隻然後也救援了一百一十九個人這是我們一個準確的統計數字"},{"start":23038.723,"end":23039.684,"text":"目前我們協商了十幾次的次數"},{"start":23056.293,"end":23071.307,"text":"我們最主要的困難點協商沒有辦法達成共識是什麼原因呢既然這個兩岸協同執法這過去是往例、慣例既然海上的救援這也不是第一次發生這一次我們目前協商遇到的困難是什麼"},{"start":23071.947,"end":23099.254,"text":"我想我就由我的角度來看因為這一次中方一直提出一些條件說嘛那譬如說我舉例說明我們說要真相那我們一定要等司法的整個的調查完畢之後他會給一個判斷會給一個判定或者一個結果但是他認為這個我不能夠接受"},{"start":23100.274,"end":23115.339,"text":"我們這方一定要堅持我們的司法制度我們一定要堅持按照我們的司法制度來走這個程序但他們堅持就是他們的一個想法所以我們在很多的點上面會有一些衝突"},{"start":23115.919,"end":23137.492,"text":"但是這個衝突在我們十幾次的這個這個過程當中慢慢慢慢我們有趨近我們有趨近所以我們還呼籲我們中方的這個談判的這些不管是同仁也好這家屬也好我希望我們能夠在競速還是以這樣子的一個好的一個氛圍我們繼續談判下去"},{"start":23138.353,"end":23152.531,"text":"我希望我們循往歷這樣的事件按照我方的司法我們的法治我們過去的執法來進行不要把這個事件政治化這事件是可以按照我們的執法去處理的"},{"start":23153.932,"end":23178.205,"text":"在協商的過程當中如果有條件說如果是涉及到政治條件說我希望你們一定要捍衛堅定我們的立場絕對不能退讓因為這牽涉到我們海巡執法的正當性絕對不能答應如果答應了未來台灣的水域成為海盜的天堂所有的三無船破都來台灣的海域絕對不可以讓這樣的事情發生可不可以做到我們一定會秉持這樣執法的信念好 謝謝"},{"start":23184.042,"end":23188.264,"text":"好,非常謝謝吳佩玉委員的質詢,也謝謝我們的主委,謝謝署長,謝謝繼續我們請李昆城委員質詢好,謝謝主席請我們的管主委好,有請管主委"},{"start":23213.565,"end":23230.256,"text":"主委好 主委也辛苦了這次關於中國的三無傳破因為遭到取締導致翻覆案的這個案子到目前為止這個總共談判了幾次?談判了15次那最新的談判進度是怎麼樣?最後一次談判的結果是怎麼樣?"},{"start":23236.927,"end":23262.801,"text":"我們在逐漸趨近之中那是不是還是我們在最前線還是由我們許副署長來看看哪一些事情適合說明沒關係就是可以對外說明的就說清楚就是最後一次的第15次的談判那到底談判重點在哪裡卡在哪裡能不能請這個副署長來講一下我想在"},{"start":23264.252,"end":23292.339,"text":"最近的一次也就是在昨天我想陸方的主要的訴求主要的訴求由於我們兩岸法律制度的不同兩岸法律制度的不同所以說在這個共識的凝聚方面共識的凝聚方面還有相當的落差那未來往後我們還會來持續法律制度的不同是指什麼就是彼此的法律作業的程序是"},{"start":23293.467,"end":23317.279,"text":"你這樣講其實我不太清楚是他們要求我們要先道歉嗎那我們是希望說等這個司法調查結果出來之後再說嗎類似這樣就是說包括真相也好或者是究責也好台灣有台灣的司法制度在我們有我們的法治體系我們總是認為說應該要到最後真相釐清的時候有些事情我們才能做"},{"start":23317.999,"end":23341.154,"text":"也因此我們會希望說大家能夠了解台灣的司法制度的情況之下我們在現在我們先 bypass 我們這個司法的我們先來抽離這個司法一個未來的一個冗長程序的限制我們先用撫慰的方式"},{"start":23341.854,"end":23342.274,"text":"中方是要求我們先道歉嗎?"},{"start":23366.297,"end":23367.538,"text":"在談判的過程當中,有中方要求海巡人員到對岸去接受詢問"},{"start":23388.959,"end":23408.075,"text":"我們剛剛有重複說明了一下那本席剛剛沒有聽到簡單的要說明協商的過程當中曾經有提出這樣的訴求經過我們多次的溝通以後已經逐步的化解剛剛有提出這種要求嗎是"},{"start":23412.48,"end":23439.048,"text":"除了這個字外還有沒有其他我們也認為是無理的要求委員我想我們不用無理兩個字的話就是說對於制度認知的落差我一直都希望這樣定位因為我們還是要秉持善意那舉一個例子就是說撫慰金或者是賠償這兩個概念完全不同因為在制度的認識上真的有很大的落差所以包括這個部分現在也都還在努力之中"},{"start":23439.508,"end":23453.318,"text":"因為你們在第一線談判所以你們的用詞我知道會比較低調一點點但是站在我們的立場該堅守就是要堅守啊這沒有什麼叫我們的人過去詢問那以後怎麼執法我們是取締非法的善無傳播對不對"},{"start":23456.121,"end":23475.949,"text":"三無傳播我們要取締,中國要不要取締?他們規定也很嚴格中國有沒有要求我們也要取締?過去協同執法的時候兩邊都要取締這種三無傳播嘛,對不對?那這一次也是三無傳播嘛,基本上越到我們的這個季限制海域我們就是要取締嘛,對不對?"},{"start":23477.55,"end":23499.37,"text":"對阿,所以整個事情就是,我認為啦,就是說山湖船舶接近我們的,侵入我們的境縣制海域,那我們知道這個消息了,然後我們海巡署就過去了,希望了解說到底這個山湖船舶是要做什麼嘛,那在這個要調查的過程當中,那他們我按照這個早上這個署長的說法,速度非常的快,"},{"start":23500.947,"end":23527.295,"text":"然後最後是不是有導致翻覆的情況當然這個司法還是要做調查當然就我們的立場來講說第一個我們是在執法我們是在取締非法所以我是支持這個管主委把這個專案報告名稱改成取締大陸及快艇事故這是我是支持的這是要站穩台灣的主權那我再請問一下因為在520之前會不會有類似這一種"},{"start":23528.885,"end":23532.588,"text":"報告委員,越界捕魚我們就是用越界捕魚除了越界捕魚之外我們沒有把它當作是灰色地帶戰略至於說燈檢我們真的很不願意看到還有第二次"},{"start":23558.127,"end":23587.057,"text":"那基本上其實登檢也是很罕有而且多半都是在政治的氛圍的情況之下所發生譬如說去年的歷屆演習的那個階段那以及這一次那麼那是一個比較政治性的登檢那我想中國在這樣的兩次的登檢的過程當中我必須說一句公道話就是說基本上還是有某種程度的"},{"start":23589.878,"end":23597.601,"text":"我是希望說船是台灣的船要登檢我認為要有節制但是我們認為不應該登檢這個是我們堅定的主張我們有SOP所以報告委員我想海巡署他更可以來說明我們都知道這個定位是政治性的登檢"},{"start":23616.229,"end":23639.837,"text":"所以當他是政治性的登檢的時候他就不是說海盜來了要登檢什麼你叫他去送死叫他不要停不是的不是的所以在這樣的一種政治性的氛圍情況之下的登檢我們的SOP就是我們會希望我們的民船趕快跟我們海巡聯絡然後我們會趕快去馳援然後在這個過程之中在這個過程之中保持安全能夠跟我們對開是最好的"},{"start":23644.598,"end":23667.543,"text":"所以跟委員報告說在這樣的一個SOP之下我們總是希望能夠把這樣的一個行動然後不要再繼續我們的SOP就是我們就是不讓他登檢那我們就先回來目前是這樣子嗎我想我們從海巡同仁的口中來說明就可以更精確好嗎我們請我們巡防組的來簡單講一下"},{"start":23672.695,"end":23689.074,"text":"我是巡邏組長首先我們是針對海域來做區分分別從限制水域外到限制水域乃至於到禁止水域那上次的那個我們的遊艇呢這一艘遊艇是在限制水域外是那通常我們在會先用透過雷打來"},{"start":23689.955,"end":23709.678,"text":"曾知知道這件事知道有這艘船之後我們會透過那個監控如果他進到裡面在我們的水域裡面或者我發現的時候我會馬上通報我們的線上過去然後切到他大陸的公務船跟我方的船舶之間之後再透過兩岸協調的管道來做溝通"},{"start":23710.998,"end":23732.155,"text":"好 那說520之前如果類似的事情發生的話是不是不應該讓他們上船登檢?絕對是這個態度跟立場對啊 因為上次就讓他們登船上船登檢過啦欸 這也算是台灣主權的延伸欸對不對 這是我們的船欸他憑什麼來上船登檢?是 我們也延伸了這個態度我們有違規嗎?沒有沒有違規啊 那為什麼 憑什麼他們要來上船登檢?沒有這個權利嘛"},{"start":23741.564,"end":23759.541,"text":"在這個1989年的時候,35年前在中國在這個海域上面還有萬船齊發這也是一個政治性的氛圍那時候就是要來嚇阻那我不知道說現在在520之前會不會有類似這一種萬船齊發"},{"start":23762.339,"end":23789.781,"text":"中國現在不依法取締他們的商務船舶我認為是單純對中國漁民違法行為的放任還是官方支持對金馬海域的干擾執法這個對我可能剩下最後一分鐘這件事情我有三個堅持請海洋委員這邊我希望能夠堅持下去第一個涉及管轄權的問題涉及主權的問題絕對不能有任何讓步"},{"start":23790.829,"end":23817.201,"text":"2.對於中國漁民的違法行為取締不能打折3.給予人道的撫慰金不能有任何附加條件我們願意給對方罹難者人道撫慰金但是不能讓對岸有任何的附加條件主委 這個在談判的過程能不能堅守至少這三個原則"},{"start":23818.574,"end":23833.897,"text":"報告委員我們交給專案小組我們交給專案小組來作為參考好不好好不好我希望取締非法維持合法堅守台灣的主權在這次的談判過程當中我認為是要堅守下去的好不好是謝謝委員指導我們一定會接下來還會再繼續再談判下去嗎會的他們還留在金門嗎"},{"start":23844.085,"end":23847.826,"text":"談判的時間不是重點,立場要彼此調整,釋出最大善意,那個才是重點"},{"start":23862.556,"end":23880.704,"text":"我當然知道談判時間不是重點我們會掌握所有的節奏好不好好 謝謝坤城委員、哲勛也謝謝管組委員、副組長謝謝你們謝謝繼續請邱毅英委員邱毅英委員、邱毅英委員不在再請我們的鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":23897.899,"end":23922.422,"text":"主席、各位委員,有請海巡署署長哪一位署長?署長是不是?海巡署署長,謝謝副主委兼署長對,副主委兼署長,謝謝這個署長好,辛苦了齁應該的這個為了維護我們的主權還有海域的安全"},{"start":23923.78,"end":23925.001,"text":"我們這個召委以內政委員會的開會通知是立法院內政委員會的開通知"},{"start":23953.399,"end":23981.949,"text":"這個題目是金門撞船案這個金門撞船案兩種可能嘛一個是大陸快艇撞我國的巡防艇另外一種可能我國的巡防艇撞大陸快艇當然還有第三種可能兩個同時碰撞"},{"start":23990.913,"end":24011.358,"text":"我自己是事務官出身我當過事務官很久30年我也當過常務的副主委很多年無論是民進黨執政、國民黨執政我都當過這為一個我不知道你們是不是稱為事務官"},{"start":24012.813,"end":24015.614,"text":"除了我以外以下全部是事務官主長是政務官是副署長"},{"start":24041.836,"end":24063.659,"text":"我們有請副署長我常常過去當事務官我們要考量到就我們原住民族的前夜來講我們要去怎麼樣去協助我們的長官你要協助我們的廣州委廣州委員過去立委當很久"},{"start":24065.324,"end":24093.503,"text":"這個要調整不是那麼容易所以有時候這個該欠打或是拜託甚至用拜託兩個字這個可以減少很多的相關的衝突尤其是涉及到海域的安全海巡弟兄的執法各方面所以這個部分更要去勇敢的"},{"start":24094.512,"end":24119.584,"text":"勇敢的去跟長官報告好我們看這個因為我們的資訊很少了張偉的資訊也是很少了對不對所以我們當然就看媒體的報導啊我們就看靜州刊的報導靜州刊過濾了吧靜州刊的報導你看他這邊提到負責調查的金門地檢署"},{"start":24120.533,"end":24149.081,"text":"檢察長朱士瑜親上火線第一時間就發現中國快艇左旋下方有一處明顯的撞痕用肉眼即可看到凹陷處一聲有碰撞這邊也提到碰撞碰撞碰撞就剛才講了三種可能性甚至四種可能性都有所以這個部分我們看一下"},{"start":24152.171,"end":24154.092,"text":"這是你今天的答詢呢?"},{"start":24175.504,"end":24176.105,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":24192.571,"end":24217.89,"text":"在這個準備分檢的過程當中就會發生像剛剛我們影片所發生的因為互相一個是逃跑一個是追逐這樣子互動的一個狀況之下難免會有一些擦碰我想這個一定會有所以我們在這一次的這個檢調對於兩艘船查扣之後請這些相關的單位來做這個查驗的時候"},{"start":24236.425,"end":24241.07,"text":"所以這個部分當主委我不知道是一開始你就下了這個標題"},{"start":24243.407,"end":24271.142,"text":"我說今天的那個報告的標題是你下的還是主委下的我不知道是誰改的沒關係重點不管怎麼樣我們要第一個我剛講的一開始的原則減少衝突立法院難免會有不同的立場對不對民進黨立委當然質詢的方向不一樣"},{"start":24272.579,"end":24298.91,"text":"但是怎麼樣去減少衝突尤其是涉及到兩岸的和平我們就講原住民來說主委也很清楚主長你也很清楚在海巡弟兄裡面原住民的比例很高我們的軍人的比例也很高原住民是不怕打戰的啦"},{"start":24300.901,"end":24301.722,"text":"我們都會打仗,我們是執法。"},{"start":24325.849,"end":24326.39,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":24342.455,"end":24343.776,"text":"好,我們看了你們的,好,好,好"},{"start":24360.273,"end":24379.992,"text":"那麽主委在看到我們這個題目之後他就認為我們為什麽要寫這個題目我說我們這就是一個單一的執法事件我們就是一個取締、一個三無傳播但是我們要好好檢討所以我們要好好檢討是這個問題我早上已經特別提出過去"},{"start":24381.173,"end":24406.789,"text":"立法院的執請不是只有召委本人我也當過召委很多年我提的文字內政委員會或別的委員會都會跟我討論說這個題目要不要稍微修正一下改一下所以這個都會所以這個部分的溝通很重要好我們來看"},{"start":24410.313,"end":24437.488,"text":"這是你們的報告本次涉案傳播細數三無傳播無傳名無傳播證書無傳及登記對不對當然用詞就我來看每個人的觀點不同我尊重大陸及快艇它是無傳及港登記"},{"start":24439.349,"end":24466.772,"text":"無船舶證書無船名這個部分這個有時候還是稍微謹慎一下這個因為我們依法例等一下我先看一下條文依法例台灣第7與大陸第7人民關係條例第29條第1項使用的是叫大陸船舶我們依法行政大陸船舶"},{"start":24468.637,"end":24469.077,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":24492.176,"end":24492.336,"text":"這裏面的報告提到"},{"start":24513.618,"end":24541.489,"text":"立法院內政委員會108年會議結議考量海巡人員執法環境特殊建議海巡署員2個月內研議配發密錄器與基層人員期間須陸續籌補1358台為目前配發所使用密錄器未採用執行人員每一台方式配發未來將改採每人一台方式配發當然你後面有提到"},{"start":24543.134,"end":24569.587,"text":"動資一倍金我的意思是說這個部分今天在這個快艇裡面我們的快艇我們的名稱叫什麼我們的那個海巡艇不是只有一個人好幾個人在裡面顯然如果都沒有密錄器的話顯然還是"},{"start":24571.658,"end":24573.439,"text":"請問一下署長,你們今年什麼時候會完成全部這個實踐報告?"},{"start":24592.549,"end":24594.53,"text":"我們希望能在9月以前完成"},{"start":24610.637,"end":24636.756,"text":"莊瑞雄委員．莊瑞雄委員．莊瑞雄委員不在．洪孟楷委員．洪孟楷委員．洪孟楷委員不在．林沛翔委員．林沛翔委員．林沛翔委員不在．謝一鳳．謝一鳳．謝一鳳委員不在．吳思瑤．吳思瑤．吳思瑤委員不在．鍾嘉斌．鍾嘉斌．鍾嘉斌委員不在．李燕秀．李燕秀．李燕秀委員不在．"},{"start":24637.876,"end":24664.93,"text":"楊瓊英、楊瓊英、楊瓊英委員不在王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在林思敏、林思敏、林思敏委員不在林楚英、林楚英、林楚英委員不在鄭振權、鄭振權、鄭振權委員不在蔡易瑜、蔡易瑜、蔡易瑜委員不在林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳委員不在"},{"start":24665.27,"end":24667.291,"text":"邱志偉王世堅張家俊游皓林德福張祺凱馬文君顏寬恒"},{"start":24693.867,"end":24702.535,"text":"廖偉祥．委員不在．羅廷偉．委員不在登記發言委員．除了不在場者之外．其餘都已經發言完畢．我們現在詢答結束委員．陳冠廷．楊瓊英．王宏威．張綺凱．所提的書面諮詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":24715.866,"end":24727.299,"text":"書面局質詢還有未及答覆的部分請相關單位在一周內以書面來答覆並複製本會本日的會議到此結束我們現在散會謝謝大家辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"15687","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15687","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd471ce9aeb73a155c9b5fa2f296a935343be8d109af184be4ec6a62926edd41d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-04","start_time":"2024-03-04T08:29:59+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-04T12:02:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":12721,"委員發言時間":"08:29:59 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開諸行會議協處案件共計一百一十八件約七成三採納貶惠之意見在履約爭議協調方面調解成立率約八成"},{"start":2230.885,"end":2256.268,"text":"提供專業鑑定及諮詢一百一十二年受理法院檢查及調查機關屬託資公共工程技術鑑定及諮詢案件計二十四件已完成二十二件二、確保公共工程品質方面精進品質管理措施要求建造單位落實檢驗停留點之檢查"},{"start":2257.731,"end":2286.313,"text":"提升施工檢核查核成效將職業安全檢核停留點橋樑維護及工程材料抽驗列為查核重點112年全國查核比例為11.62%需屬民間力量渡工112年全民渡工計845件皆已完成改善精進品質管理訓練"},{"start":2287.847,"end":2310.532,"text":"一百一十二人辦理公共工程平行試驗班及回訓班共三百六十八起培訓一萬五千兩百四十三人辦理土木直系公務連員集中實務訓練五梯次共調訓一百九十六人辦理金職獎鼓勵優良工程廠商"},{"start":2313.305,"end":2324.51,"text":"加速公共工程進行方面修正公共工程經費估算手冊掌握工建計劃執行進度112年列管388項經費6787.42億元整體達成率96.21%主動協處工建計劃管控停工解約工程"},{"start":2342.732,"end":2369.298,"text":"協助排除困難重新發報管控延遲付款案件廠商通報列管23件已經付款賊案16件其他案件持續協處中4、健全公共工程管理方面確保公共工程安全衛生定定施工防患施工中御利、哀、行糧、吊放"},{"start":2371.291,"end":2400.254,"text":"後翻錄風險之作業主引．調索型橋樑設計施工維護階段應注意事項．請各機關配合辦理．強化公共設施維護管理．有效管理活用公共設施．訂定公共設施有效管理使用作業要點．要求設施管理機關主動清查．落實活用公共設施．"},{"start":2401.721,"end":2409.664,"text":"加速地方災後復健工程加速審議災後復健工程即核類復健工程2608件經費182.41億元強化關鍵基礎設施CRI安全防護與保安防護工作"},{"start":2424.209,"end":2451.283,"text":"吳推行工程永續發展方面．落實公共工程節能減碳．定班公共工程節能減碳．檢核注意事項．要求工程主辦機關於生命週期．落實節能減碳做法．定期追蹤提報．鼓勵廠商自主宣告碳排量．機關填泡使用大宗資材之碳排量．"},{"start":2452.469,"end":2472.902,"text":"推動再生力量運用與公共工程成立再生力量運用與公共工程跨部會推動小組推動與公共工程妥適運用再生力量強化公共工程生態檢核作為完成公共工程生態檢核資訊公開作業指引6、協調解決工程問題方面從源頭解決"},{"start":2480.377,"end":2497.278,"text":"營建材料及缺工問題以源頭管控方式每月檢視砂石供給平衡充分供應砂石營造業人力以遍地勞工為主放寬公共工程引進外籍勞工維護"},{"start":2500.536,"end":2523.835,"text":"離清流標原因與因應協處．召開340餘案檢討會議．辦理計五十五場說明會．進行宣導及雙向交流．訂定道路塌陷及臨防基礎操工之防範指引．及工程高空作業災害之防範指引"},{"start":2525.592,"end":2532.197,"text":"中央地方建設協調事項協調新北市宜蘭縣及屏東縣相關案件至113年2月已召開80次會議協調185案的案件其他相關業務事項"},{"start":2545.888,"end":2557.914,"text":"落實公共工程設計建造施工與全責執行通盤檢討修正公共工程專業技師簽證規則技師受託實際辦理與病科技術相關事務方得簽證與事負責協助工程產業擴展海外市場112年國內七大輸出國團隊及拓展業者於新南向"},{"start":2576.258,"end":2604.973,"text":"區域得標39件約319億元．於公共工程建設之推動與民眾福祉息息相關並為國家經濟發展之主要動力便會持續推動協助各機關排除公共工程上所遭遇之困難與障礙讓公共工程順利推動並讓品質更為提升以上報告進行主席及各位先進主教謝謝"},{"start":2607.365,"end":2617.998,"text":"謝謝吳主委的業務報告目前在場委員已逐3人進行議事錄之處理請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有錯誤或遺漏之處議事錄確定"},{"start":2625.482,"end":2651.447,"text":"現在進行詢答先宣告以下事項發言時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記與10點30分截止各委員如有提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則上不休息現在請登記第一位林沛翔委員發言"},{"start":2662.892,"end":2665.413,"text":"吳主委首先本席先要肯定我們公共工程委員會在與監督行政院各部會的工程跟協定審定我們的契約不過本席要特別在這邊先提醒公共工程委員會"},{"start":2689.625,"end":2717.071,"text":"因為物價的浮動還有最近我們近年來常常看到很多公共工程的氣標案常常發生所以還請公共工程委員會特別注意各大公共工程的進度甚至說有關標案來講的話本席是認為說以這個最有利標精神來促進各個公共工程的進度是我認為比較在這個目前這個世代是比較合理的做法"},{"start":2717.987,"end":2727.239,"text":"再來既然說我們公共工程委員會有協助審定契約的功能那本席就想請教一下請問OT跟ROT案有什麼不同?"},{"start":2730.56,"end":2731.741,"text":"他主要經過契約的變更程序"},{"start":2756.226,"end":2782.505,"text":"那這個是要有一個法定程序才能做變更吧?他有一個程序去做變更那有沒有真相的先例就是經過法定程序之後合理變更的呢?要看他的實際需求那所以說以主委的經驗以主委的專業來判斷的話OT案改成ROT都是要經過一定的法定程序不能說改就改對吧?"},{"start":2783.893,"end":2797.982,"text":"呃要看他的個案的需求如果需要變更他要按照程序辦理變更要有個程序在嗎OK那不好意思那就請問因為我是基隆來的立法委員那基隆的東岸商場這個"},{"start":2799.463,"end":2799.563,"text":"那我想請 請說"},{"start":2829.68,"end":2856.356,"text":"跟委員說明一下就是畜餐的業務那麼現在已經是在屬於財政部的業務主管所以畜餐這一塊現在我們工程會沒有在這個接觸不過以以前的慣例來講還是要經過一個法定的程序才能確認說這個OT案雖然是ROT可能對於整個城市也是有幫助的但是不管怎麼樣以公務人員四大法則來講合法、合理"},{"start":2857.616,"end":2880.27,"text":"合法、合理、必要、比例原則來講的話合法性這是有待爭議的對吧 主委我的意思是說從工程的觀念來看今天7月已經訂定如果7月的旅行過程當中有需要去改變7月的內容跟方式的話他就透過變更程序來辦理"},{"start":2882.227,"end":2910.9,"text":"好那比較奇特的就是說我們在這邊看到有一個奇特的點就是說基隆市政府跟他的如果在NET的案子裡面基隆市政府是屋主中間有個房東叫做大日開發然後我們現在另外一個受害者也就是所謂的NET主婦服裝公司基本上是屋主房東跟房客的關係那這邊我們就有一個疑點就是說基隆市政府"},{"start":2911.42,"end":2937.553,"text":"他是跟大日開發也就是他的房東簽了5加3年的合約但是大日公司拿到這5加3年之後就直接跟Net跟主婦商場簽訂10年的租約這是讓人家覺得很奇特的一點那我也想請問說像這樣的合約在公共工程委員會上面你們認為合理嗎?就公共工程這邊採購的企業來講"},{"start":2940.256,"end":2967.827,"text":"那麼如果這一個假以雙方以方的契約的這個以方的這個廠商他如果有分包廠商的話那麼一約也是可以的但是他也要報備要報備嗎?所以可能報備上面這個就是不見得這個就要看他個案的就是個案的狀況嚴格講起來就是在這個案子裡面NET跟基隆市政府沒有直接關係因為他是大熱開發的協力廠商"},{"start":2969.406,"end":2987.739,"text":"是沒有但是他如果分包有報備的話他也連帶有他的權利義務關係我為什麼會把這個案子特地拿出來講的原因是說像這樣的案子我們以如果不把它政治化的話這是一個在公共工程在合約上面會變成是未來在"},{"start":2988.559,"end":3003.607,"text":"全國的一個範例一個先例如果今天我們可以看到說一個房客可以約一個房客一個私人企業體可以從中間經過房東經過他們的他們的開發商一個合約開發商就可以暫時認定說"},{"start":3006.448,"end":3027.553,"text":"政府的土地政府的產權是屬於他們私人的那這會開一個先例在我們所在我們所知道的行政體系裡面也就是說如果未來這個先例一開我們會看到任何的自身自稱是悠揚廠商直接在我們國有土地上隨便新建一個物品新建一個建物之後就自行宣稱產權"},{"start":3029.233,"end":3037.177,"text":"是屬於他們的所以為什麼今天在公共工程委員會我要第一個發言請教主委的原因在這裡謝謝主委的回答好謝謝林佩祥委員質詢接下來請黃建豪委員質詢好謝謝主席我們請吳主委請吳主委"},{"start":3063.601,"end":3089.326,"text":"委員你好主委好主委感謝公共工程會長期在臺灣的工程界跟物價的波動上面取到穩定的作用但我讓今天我看到專案報告的首要的最終的業務當然提到了所謂的政府採購法那大概有幾件事情我想就教一下我們主委政府採購法的第4條第一項裡面提到這個法人或團體接受機關補助辦理採購"},{"start":3091.306,"end":3114.922,"text":"那這個補助金額占採購金額半數以上的話他其實是適用這個政府採購法的規定這一條嘛好主委那我們大家請教一下這個去年喔鬧得沸沸揚揚的這個雞蛋的採購案其中涉及的單位就是這個續產會反正續產會對外採購是否合法在當初的新聞裡面我們看到一句話所以才今天特別來這個來詢問來質詢"},{"start":3118.184,"end":3140.134,"text":"當初續產會跟農業部有特別來洽詢過我們這個公共工程委員會來確認說他到底適不適用這個採購法那這個工程會當初的回應是指說這個續產會他是屬於這個法人但是我們的這個採購法只適用於機關那我們就要問了在續產會這案子上面"},{"start":3143.157,"end":3147.344,"text":"續產會的這個案子上面他的這個定位是法人還是機關是由誰來認定?"},{"start":3151.96,"end":3170.229,"text":"在法令上面採購法有採購法的規定那扁會是針對採購法來做解釋另外民團法有民團法的這個這個他的法令的依據所以這個部分就由他們來這個解釋所以解釋機關是誰?就是當這個該案的主管機關"},{"start":3176.676,"end":3199.07,"text":"所以續產會是機關還是法人是由誰認定是農業部認定還是公共工程會認定那公共工程會不就是可是公共工程會如果負責採購法的話你們應該是採購法的主管機關吧那採購機關主管機關如果你是主管機關為什麼不是由你們來認定如果你們要放棄這樣的權利為什麼今天要特別提這個事情因為續產會的這個資金結構裡面來看的話"},{"start":3203.553,"end":3224.494,"text":"還要提到這個工程會為什麼是法人而不是機關是因為他以自有資金購買財物不是用這個採購法但是本席翻閱了這個中華民國相關的所有的法令在相關的採購法裡面其實我沒有看到這個自有資金啊自有資金的法定的定義到底是什麼"},{"start":3226.759,"end":3249.611,"text":"這個部分看起來在所謂自有資金的認定上面有一些大家看法的不同那在這個預算審查會議的時候由委員提出來要我們採購法也去做一個檢討好這個一定會提出來檢討啦因為你看喔續產會這個當初去買這個單的時候他是從農業金庫借來這個15億齁"},{"start":3255.434,"end":3270.588,"text":"這農業金庫竟然15億他把他當成所謂的自有資金但是農業金庫的錢哪裡來的?農業金庫的錢也是來自於中央政府的補助啊所以農業金庫的錢等於也是政府的錢等於也是人民納稅錢"},{"start":3271.869,"end":3272.449,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":3295.595,"end":3321.717,"text":"委員會的這個監督也可以規避國會的監督那如果這一套邏輯能夠成立的話我想未來其他的各單位各部會他都可以去成立所謂的法人來規避相關的只要反正我只要說我是法人那雖然我的資金來源九成全部來自於政府甚至九成多全部來自於政府那這樣子的話是不是工程會就無法用採購法來要求或來監督他主委"},{"start":3322.677,"end":3349.244,"text":"對 這個部分就變成這個自由資金來源是從這個個案還是從他整體的東西的認定那這個部分上一次在預算審查會議委員會委員有提出建議我現在正在檢討當中那你們檢討的因為已經 因為把它做一個釐清到底是從個案還是從整體性來看你們這個檢討的這個時間點就到底什麼時候會提出一個比較完整的"},{"start":3350.728,"end":3374.413,"text":"的說法我們現在正在進行這個東西我還要邀請相關的機關來探討你有時間表嗎主委你有時間表這個會期會有嗎對於自由資金怎麼認定對於像相關我提到的這個任何一個法人或任何的社團接受政府的捐助他就不受工程會不受採購法的這個適用這個檢討什麼時候會有我盡量在這個會期盡量"},{"start":3380.614,"end":3407.015,"text":"主委那我記得了這會議記錄這個會期好主委謝謝這是第一個我希望說工程會還是要提出相關的說法跟版本啦要強化政府採購法的監督不然如果以後每一個單位都給你捐助一個法人出來然後讓他自由的採購完全不受政府採購法的監督的話其實那等於整個預算法整個採購法就形同虛設了好主委那下一個部分時間不多剩20秒我要提一下"},{"start":3408.439,"end":3434.019,"text":"台灣的道路工程在這個工程會的評鑑裡面我們夾等的道路在去年去年全年度平等的道路是零原來台灣的道路品質這麼優良這麼優秀所以我想工程會在這個查核上面應該要更確實去落實說怎麼樣來查核這個道路品質因為我想跟這個民眾的感受很大的落差去年查的幾乎都夾等"},{"start":3435.36,"end":3443.131,"text":"沒有冰凍的欸可是我想到這個地方上很多道路其實是非常不優惠不離我倆的道路狀況啊86%對啊86%啊那還有剩下你說什麼東西86%"},{"start":3446.837,"end":3447.097,"text":"委員會主任委員會長"},{"start":3476.957,"end":3505.329,"text":"那扣掉酒駕之後其實有很多這個道路自摔你如果從警察局調閱資料因為我從義援出生的我們調閱很多相關資料很多的自摔案件是來自於說道路不平整道路這個水溝蓋不平整等等的原因導致他自摔所以你看去年的這個道安統計裡面有這麼多機車騎士是因為道路不平整導致自摔的這個結果發生但是我們回過頭來看工程會在評鑑全國各地方的道路主要道路的時候"},{"start":3506.129,"end":3527.561,"text":"平等的道路居然是零我想平等道路是零這件事情我覺得在這個民眾的觀感上面在真實的社會上面是有一定的問題的所以我想這個工程會要去檢討是說當然如果道路都是假等的如果真的是這樣子那當然是我們國國的榮耀但是實務上工程會在評鑑的過程裡面到底怎麼去執行"},{"start":3529.272,"end":3556.779,"text":"是使用後去驗收的過程裡面真的沒問題還是驗收前長一回事但是使用後發現了這個道路真的會遇到下雨遇到重車壓完之後它反而會變成凹凸不平所以導致這個道安的結果是這麼多人自摔所以這部分我希望工程會在評鑑上面要更加落實評鑑的結果要跟書記要吻合對啊對啊這就是我們希望的工程會希望能夠更確實去做到這件事情好 謝謝"},{"start":3560.709,"end":3561.691,"text":"謝謝黃健豪委員發言接下來邀請廖先祥委員質詢好謝謝一樣麻煩邀請吳主委請吳主委"},{"start":3581.225,"end":3606.046,"text":"謝謝主委這個工程界的那今天質詢的第一個問題我想先針對一個採購的爭議事件來請教一下主委在數位身分證推行的時候那當然後來經蘇貞昌院長喊卡之後那數位身分證的政策先暫停那後來廠商有提履歷爭議對不對"},{"start":3607.555,"end":3626.86,"text":"就是在去年的新聞有提到5月多的時候那已經在我們工程委員會的條儲的會議要召開那後續的條儲結果不確定就沒有新聞露出了然後想請問一下有關這一次的社會身份證的採購履歷爭議場上酋長的部分有沒有結果出來了"},{"start":3629.642,"end":3642.426,"text":"委員提的是律師證就是5加5嘛律師證的那一個對那廠商應該有提一個吳議員的這個爭議嘛對不對去年我們同年那個聖書會告訴在1月今年的1月調解成立那調解的結果"},{"start":3657.915,"end":3683.324,"text":"就雙方同意依照他們的條件來進來解決他們的條件怎麼樣簡單一點政府到最後有沒有賠款給廠商是跟委員報告廠商本來請求10億多那經過我們調解後他因為有些部分必須在國外去數量必須去匯算所以我們整體調解金額應該是會在2億8以下2億8"},{"start":3687.725,"end":3708.201,"text":"那我想請問一下主委那有關這樣子的政府採購的一個缺失我不曉得你認不認同這個缺失兩個字但是這個結果造成了我們政府在推行一下政策沒有成功之外還要賠償給廠商兩億多的一個經費那主委針對這樣子的採購案您個人的看法有沒有什麼值得見到的地方"},{"start":3709.652,"end":3737.105,"text":"根據我的了解這個案子是因為這個要實施跟決策過程當中遭遇到民意的一些意見而變更這個做法是這樣的一個結果那當然要檢討的地方就是未來對於任何的政策要在實施之前應該要做好更廣泛的溝通避免在實施過程當中再產生不同的民意的反應"},{"start":3737.945,"end":3758.912,"text":"那造成這樣子的結果有沒有會有任何的懲處的一個機制或者說誰應該要對這件事情來負起責任這個部分就由這個主政的機關他們去檢討主政機關可是現在當初決策的行政院長現在已經貴為總統了誰可以來檢討他"},{"start":3764.9,"end":3792.038,"text":"這個應該是在機關這邊檢討政策不會到院長所以說就是時任的內政部長可能要來決定要檢討到哪個單位反正就是基層來基層來背鍋就對了也不是這樣一個數位身分證的一個這個全國性重大的政策推行失敗造成國家的損失結果居然不是由院長等級不是由部長等級的人來承擔責任而是由基層的同仁來"},{"start":3792.679,"end":3795.721,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":3807.674,"end":3827.824,"text":"不會,一定會有人去對這個部分去做一個交代會有一個課則嗎?那我們工程會當然啦,當初因為我們就只是合約的政府採購法的一個算是一個上級的一個機關嘛指導機關那後續我們會追蹤嗎?有關課則的部分還是您可以跟我建議後續應該要跟哪個機關來追蹤?這個部分應該相關部會他們會去檢討"},{"start":3833.274,"end":3857.72,"text":"您有沒有建議的?我們原來就應該要去檢討這個問題所以後續這個案子有關相關的課則我就是去主委建議我去找內政部這樣子我沒有這樣講那不然我找在政府的體系他有該負責檢討的單位他會去檢討因為我今天是在質詢主委嘛對不對請教主委"},{"start":3858.3,"end":3881.793,"text":"那我想確認,所以未來可以繼續跟主委請教後續課則的問題嗎?還是要另請其他單位?委員要問我也可以,我會去了解好,那就後續再麻煩主委,謝謝主委另外第二個問題是,前一陣子有一個新聞是國手,籃球國手的一個保險的問題"},{"start":3883.322,"end":3905.79,"text":"那就是有國手就是對於國手培訓時候﹐比賽不管是培訓或比賽的時候的保險的制度有一些維持那不曉得我們工程會事後有沒有做一些相關的瞭解或是單位在執行上面支案來行的地方這個部分我在媒體包括在院會的執行也聽到委員有這樣的執行案"},{"start":3906.704,"end":3932.179,"text":"那我個人的看法應該這個部分是我覺得是不應該發生這樣不應該發生那我看我聽教育部長也回應委員的執行也會去檢討這個事情是好那我們應該針對採購法的部分他們一定有他們摯愛奶情的地方嘛那後續是不是也可以麻煩我們主委這邊麻煩同仁後續有關這個保險的部分來後續追蹤"},{"start":3932.719,"end":3960.996,"text":"有需要的話我們會來給你協助好那我再後續來請教一下那另外再請教一下因為我們的報告裡面有提到公共工程採購金額申請這個移工的金額嘛有降低嘛對不對那前一陣子也是國內討論度非常高的一個事件就是國內要不要開放印度移工進來國內那可能這個也會牽扯到我們營造的工程包括因為工程這個採購法都有一些相關的"},{"start":3970.255,"end":3990.251,"text":"主委針對開放移工這一項政策您有怎樣的看法?據我瞭解勞動部增加印度移工這個部分是增加來源國但是數量並沒有限定所以媒體在講說10萬好像不是這個意思"},{"start":3992.536,"end":3996.941,"text":"總而不變 組成方式多加一個國家 多加一個來源的地方"},{"start":3998.004,"end":4022.068,"text":"那麼對於移工這個部分從這個根本上在我工程會的看法就工程這個部分是我們原則上還是以本勞為主外勞為輔所以我們朝這個方向在努力那主委支不支持就是剛剛您架構下總而不變那增加一個印度也可以進來的這樣子的一個方式"},{"start":4023.171,"end":4044.616,"text":"站在公共工程管理的一個角度來看您支持嗎?增加來源國的管道我想我們是贊成的好所以主委是支持在總而不變的情況下那增加來源國就是在增加一個硬度的部分都一個選擇嘛好主委是支持的嗎?好謝謝主委那以上我今天的請教到這邊謝謝好謝謝好謝謝廖先生委員質詢"},{"start":4050.831,"end":4053.132,"text":"接下來邀請徐富奎委員質詢謝謝主席,有請我們的吳主委請吳主委"},{"start":4071.62,"end":4071.781,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4091.474,"end":4113.851,"text":"我個人的意願我是需要休息主委不過我想說本席這邊要首先請教就是說因為我們公共工程委員會一直在我們的這個行政院的組織法一直沒有很明確的一個定位那未來也一直存在所謂的一個主給的一個聲音那不曉得針對這個部分我們主委有沒有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":4114.631,"end":4131.894,"text":"怎麼樣讓公共工程委員會有未來的定位甚至未來的功能性能夠有一個更多的一個發揮這個兩難從這個實務上面公共工程委員的存在業務上有他的必要性也他的非常重要的一個功能是"},{"start":4132.375,"end":4147.154,"text":"那在實務上面因為有這個部會數量的限制那麼有其他的部會的需求所以暫時用這種方式那麼來這個進行那麼也是一個不得已的做法"},{"start":4148.644,"end":4170.475,"text":"不過主委我想說這個未來還是要有一個專業性跟一個考量我想說不管是主改也好或是怎麼樣的一個定位我想公共工程委員會對我們行政機關是一個很重要的一個角色應該也不能這樣不明不白一直下去應該要解決對我想未來這部分行政院應該也要做一個思考"},{"start":4171.355,"end":4198.158,"text":"那另外我想針對目前我們各縣市面臨一個比較大的問題就是所謂的一個進度、工程進度落後跟流標的問題那我想主委長期以來也一直在協助我們各縣市在處理這個問題那尤其由我們的資料來顯示從108年到112年我們地方政府的公共工程的落後的進度從19件提升到500多件成長了將近30倍"},{"start":4198.658,"end":4221.358,"text":"那針對這個問題我想主委這邊是不是有什麼解決的方案這個落後的這個工程進度的列管一直都是我們持續在這個控管當中那麼我們做了很多的努力希望在這個預防方面那麼盡量降低它的發生"},{"start":4222.139,"end":4246.79,"text":"那麼我們在標案的管理系統上面發現他的這個落後我們馬上就會提醒甚至於我們會給予來協助那麼來跟地方跟相關機關尤其是地方政府我們來協助他們那麼來解決問題讓這些碰到的不管從流標到停工到等等我們來協助他解決一直都在努力當中"},{"start":4248.341,"end":4276.96,"text":"主委,不過因為我們屏東那個主委對屏東也很了解嘛我們屏東的服務員很廣而且有偏鄉跟原鄉的問題存在那所以我們目前的有一些案件進度落後的部分確實是比較多啦那未來,未來針對這些偏鄉跟原鄉主委是不是有一個更積極的做法或是比如說有些工程單價也不能跟度位去比嘛那這樣怎麼樣去協助我們的"},{"start":4278.04,"end":4292.95,"text":"現政府的部分來做這樣的一個努力盡可能不要流標或是delay的問題對偏鄉的部分變來就可以依照他實際的價格需求去編列那這方面我們也一直在宣導"},{"start":4293.931,"end":4310.196,"text":"所以將來委員在屏東這邊比較了解我們會來更加強對鄉鎮甚至於縣政府這邊怎麼樣去對他的個案需要去編列預算那麼讓他不要去造成流標我們會多多來做先導"},{"start":4311.941,"end":4328.886,"text":"當然我相信我們委員會很努力的協助不過就是說因為整個地理環境的狀況跟所謂的一個現在的廠商的一個能量的問題也是一個大問題那這部分工程會有沒有什麼比較更積極的一個做法來協助"},{"start":4330.387,"end":4354.447,"text":"能量的部分確實有這種狀況但是呢這個有兩類一類是大工程他會被這個市場的這個能量所限制那一個部分是剛剛委員提到的我們像我們偏鄉會不會因為他在偏鄉而在地的這個廠商比較少產生這個現象所以這個部分也是可以尋求解決的方式"},{"start":4355.794,"end":4381.443,"text":"好 那我另外再請教主委 主委之前有在媒體上提過您自己上任之後到現在已經開過將近300場的一個流標的檢討會那從這個數據來看 工程的流標的案件去年當然是最近比較少 但是還是有將近10%的一個都會的流標比例 那這個部分主委怎麼樣來做改善"},{"start":4382.912,"end":4402.483,"text":"劉標的問題我們還是認為在機關的作為上面他的設計有沒有符合實際剛剛那個委員提到的價格有沒有依照實際還有供期有不合理還有甚至有沒有發現標案裡面的一些條件不合理"},{"start":4403.143,"end":4414.821,"text":"都可能發生這個部分我們都已經在掌握那對於流標案件馬上就跟主辦機關來溝通協調了解提醒他怎麼樣讓他去解決"},{"start":4416.15,"end":4434.483,"text":"對,依我們評論來講,我們有的案件甚至流標十幾次以上,這件很大的問題,我們的懲辦同仁光是來來去去整理這些東西就花很多的時間,所以這個部分還是要麻煩諸位再特別再加強。我們會特別來注意。好,那我想"},{"start":4436.704,"end":4465.828,"text":"另外一個部分就是說我們這個廠商這邊也有一些相關的一些問題就是說從108年到112年有超過200件主管機關拖延工程款的案件而且是由廠商主動通報那這樣子的一個狀況會讓我們的民間廠商不敢來表我們公家的案這個是一個很大的一個問題也影響到我們政府的公信力那後續我們針對這部分工程會如何來做因應跟處理"},{"start":4467.279,"end":4490.04,"text":"其實我們已經有在這方面在努力一方面在網路上面接受廠商的陳情我們去處理那因為我們為了廠商他怕得罪這個機關他不敢講我們主動從網路上面發現主動去關心瞭解什麼原因如果他該給了而沒有給那我們會給協助"},{"start":4491.909,"end":4520.251,"text":"因為確實這個尤其我們每次到桂泥井這個案件特別多這個大家都會有很大的困擾所以這點再麻煩主委我們會來注意那本席是認為說我們公共工程委員會是統籌我們全國公共工程的主要機關那未來也針對我們的一個偏鄉跟原鄉的公共工程能夠提供更多的協助尤其是全國公共工程的一個招標的狀況"},{"start":4521.032,"end":4522.013,"text":"委員的建立方向來努力謝謝"},{"start":4548.26,"end":4549.86,"text":"許委員發言完畢．現在請林國成委員發言主委早"},{"start":4573.971,"end":4598.516,"text":"我想你也是工程界的尖兵那其實我今天要談的主要我個人的看法公共工程在整個所有台灣裡面不管是地方政府、中央政府所有的公共工程確確實實工程會是有存在之必要"},{"start":4599.758,"end":4620.54,"text":"主委你認同嗎我認同不要人心惶惶坐在這裡包括處長包括副主委包括所有工作同仁什麼時候要被裁撤都不曉得所以習委員剛才所講的基本上本席也非常贊成"},{"start":4621.775,"end":4641.461,"text":"但是有一點主委在這裡主管的這些契約公共工程的這些品質還有爭議最後解釋法律的這三大立場基本上主委你們現在是變成孤兒欸"},{"start":4644.156,"end":4664.525,"text":"1999年到確定要整病但是在主改的過程當中大家可以看經濟部人員增加交通部人員增加農委會改為農委部環保署改為環保部內政部新成立的數位部請問主委"},{"start":4666.789,"end":4687.907,"text":"你不覺得竹改孤兒就是工程會我要聽聽主委你要拿出你的專業還有擔當告訴我們在竹改過程當中不能成為孤兒基本上這個是有必要的主委你可以回答我為什麼"},{"start":4689.371,"end":4704.92,"text":"我非常謝謝委員對這方面的見解看得非常的清楚今天工程會的這個存在確實有很多跨部會的事情還有相關的協調的事情"},{"start":4705.76,"end":4734.072,"text":"相關碰到的困難問題都需要我們去預防去協調去解決那麼確實是非常關鍵但是我剛剛強調在現實面就是有一個部會的數額的限制產生這個問題所以這個部分我們會來跟院裡面來反映沒有主委我主要的目的你要替替我們所有同仁該爭取的該表態的你還是要表態"},{"start":4735.412,"end":4761.016,"text":"剛剛席委員跟你詢問的時候你說我個人意願你個人意願不再繫刃最起碼的話你要講真心話讓主改知道真正怎麼改才是正確這一點我想我建議這個主委啊你要有擔當把真心話講出來不要因為你現在是為官就不把真心話講出來這一點我想主改"},{"start":4762.212,"end":4789.983,"text":"我想多數委員都認為工程會存在是有必要的那另外一個剛剛主委又講到基隆市政府LATER的問題我說實在雖然這是一個促參條例而產生但是不要忘了促參條例通通要有合約有合約就跟我們工程會有關所以這個部分我還是建議主委"},{"start":4790.703,"end":4818.653,"text":"因為以一個基隆市民的立場：可以自己覺得說這個房產就是他的但是你以一個基隆市民來講這個房產是基隆市政府的怎麼會變成這樣呢我不管你用什麼畜餐條例或者不管你用什麼那個OT或BOT我不管你但是都有合約的存在所以我要建議"},{"start":4819.733,"end":4842.036,"text":"我們主委這個部分我不妨你可以把他們出山調理回歸其實合約的本質跟合約的合理不合理你們才是行家你們才是行家地方政府或者是廠商不一定是行家所以我建議這個部分"},{"start":4843.874,"end":4863.255,"text":"基隆市民的財產就是基隆市民的財產只要這裏面沒有牽涉到合約有明文規定通通基隆市民的怎麼會去變成是那個內特他們的呢所以這點我是比較疑惑所以我要見解我們主委這個部分"},{"start":4864.396,"end":4888.517,"text":"你們的專家拿出來研究一下給政府機關不要硬拗這一點另外一個我要主委答覆的就是我一向非常重視勞工的權利你們的這些合約裡面第一章你們這個63條這裡的內容就提出派駐勞工新租證明以後"},{"start":4889.198,"end":4889.798,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":4913.124,"end":4926.324,"text":"這個創新很好保障勞工基本上勞工出身我去關心這個議題我看到工程會有這個新舉動基本上我認為是OK的所以主委你們這個勞工的範圍"},{"start":4928.7,"end":4956.398,"text":"包括到什麼層次他這個主持是說他有一些標案他要派駐在機關工作的這個對我知道主委我的意思就是這個本意那個立法那個良善但是換為到什麼時候是只有工地主任或者只有他的經理人或者包括他所使下包廠商的這些勞工我要了解的是這個主委"},{"start":4957.233,"end":4980.672,"text":"那這個部分是不是我們來釐清之後再來跟委員講上面好 那主委我也同意啦 這個把它釐清到底是只有工地主任或者是經理人或者是要包括下包廠商這點我希望你給我辦公室一個回覆好不好好那接下來啊因為有時候主委我說實在來你看一下接下來看一下"},{"start":4982.895,"end":5008.108,"text":"公共工程我現在舉例啦因為你主管這個公共工程我舉例你現在看圖片引李倫貝香未伸手他的工程案已經留保18次欸那像我們旺大縣8次那那個環傳縣5次或桃園的捷運這個5次那你知道這是什麼原因嗎"},{"start":5010.041,"end":5019.746,"text":"對於流標的問題工程會非常的花很大的心思在上面那麼都會去了解那我們了解之後"},{"start":5020.816,"end":5044.127,"text":"我們覺得從結果來看現在是百分之平均91%以上是都可以提票出去的一成以下才流標那那個流標的問題尤其大工程比較多小工程比較少偏鄉多都市比較少這個部分我們都個案去了解了解之後"},{"start":5045.608,"end":5064.038,"text":"主委這個我拜託因為我時間已經到我希望我希望您把這個研究的結果把通案提供給我們本會的委員去做參考因為這個是跟公共工程這整個有關的這點拜託您一下可以嗎好謝謝您謝謝林委員現在請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":5079.827,"end":5084.391,"text":"好 謝謝主席本席邀請我們工程會吳主委請吳主委主委你好主委你好主委我們現在全國的列管閒置設施只有剩3件我看你的報告這樣寫恭喜以前都100多件現在怎麼剩3件"},{"start":5108.607,"end":5125.297,"text":"其實公共設施閒置本來就不應該本來就不應該啊我舉個例子啦我們台南龜園有一個公有市場啊二三樓啊那閒置了快30年了但是為什麼沒有在我們列管的名單裡面啊以前列管全國工程列管的閒置設施大概都一覽百見齁"},{"start":5133.959,"end":5154.942,"text":"自從我們工程會改變了,會不會是因為你改變了認定的那個方式啊?不是。不是喔?不然都改過了?都解決了?以前齁,我覺得以前那麼多是因為啊,他們都要報到工程會來啦。由工程會一個審核委員都去審查。"},{"start":5156.504,"end":5182.774,"text":"現在政府自己先選擇先決定這個算不算閒置設施需不需要報告工程會會不會這樣以前的幾百件是來自於媒體的報導或是聯名的反應說那個有閒置就把他列款是這樣來的沒有啦你自己的報告就這樣寫以前是這樣產生的啊你看"},{"start":5183.669,"end":5198.393,"text":"那後來我們引擎結果﹖抱歉我沒有做起來,你看一下﹖數字都來自你工程會﹖你都像媒體報導﹖後來我沒有亂挖﹖建築很多那時候應該不是你認內,102年,你還沒來,107年我現在是這樣子啦,就是說像我們地方就有一個公共市場閒置2、30年"},{"start":5212.133,"end":5221.642,"text":"那面積很大喔,我照片都拍給你看喔那為什麼沒有在列館裡面我認為是,就是因為現在是不是閒置設施由地方政府自己認定啊"},{"start":5222.853,"end":5223.633,"text":"主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":5252.055,"end":5276.26,"text":"就是說他縣市政府他自己先決定要不要報給你嘛那這數字怎麼會多 對不對我如果地方我當然就略管越少越好嘛看面子嘛 對不對啊所以當然報給你有借法捏報給你少那你承建的數字當然就少啊你看你現在全國閒置設置只有3間這合理嗎 這可能嗎"},{"start":5278.326,"end":5297.733,"text":"這是不可能嘛那地方政府不報你當然就不知道啊因為你授權給他啊他設施要怎麼使用他自己不用我知道啦他自己怎樣你懂我意思沒有啦所以喔我認為現在這個是不是已經不符合實際狀況了啦應該是地方政府人不理你你都要補開嘛"},{"start":5302.666,"end":5327.112,"text":"那以前是我們工程會有一個委員會在審查你算不算閒置設施那你需不需要列管嘛那現在沒有這個工程會已經不做這樣審查了就直接丟給地方政府了所以這個建書就會變很少了啦我們對於地方政府有沒有報的實在我們也會抽查你現在只是我們要抽查如果委員想這樣講那表示他不實在那我們抽查不確實我們會檢討那你就要去抽查"},{"start":5328.493,"end":5329.273,"text":"我們會來加強抽查"},{"start":5358.079,"end":5387.174,"text":"對阿,你只剩這樣阿,所以你現在這個閒置奢侈的數字我覺得已經沒有意義了,對你齁我們現在今年阿,工程會要開始實施公共工程的簡單新規定齁尤其工程會的報告裡面說今年年終,年終應該算落尾吧就是要鼓勵志願性的填寫啦,我們醫藥社會公共工程都要填寫他的排碳的數據啦,廠商都志願性的揭露啦那現在這個志願性的揭露你要趕快建立喔"},{"start":5388.444,"end":5411.871,"text":"工程會是不是說要自己建立自己的碳排放的資料庫目前看起來是沒有了才開始在規劃主要受理都在哪裡?主要都在環境部嘛那環境部根本也還沒有做好我舉個例子給你看環境部的碳足跡資料庫他現在只有列30種類別"},{"start":5414.08,"end":5435.287,"text":"其實還差的啦,你知道嗎?我們公共工程會使用到的項目多得不得了啦那舉一個例子,它這個水泥啦水泥的這個碳排放數字還有2014年那年代的受理都很久了啦我認為連環境部的碳足跡資料庫都很不實在"},{"start":5436.98,"end":5463.543,"text":"那麼現在我們如何來請廠商揭露就公共工程的施作的廠商他要填寫他的太盤這個我感覺你要推動這個一定要推動因為這個國際上的公約大家都要這樣推動啦但是你那個速度要快啦要不然那些廠商說你是要怎麼寫的我根本就沒有成一個參考的數字嘛"},{"start":5464.56,"end":5482.243,"text":"所以要落實碳排放的這個機制第一個你們要跨部會要去談嘛你為了碳足跡資料庫他什麼時候可以建立那我們才開始要求別人嘛包括你工程會也要自己建立一個碳排放資料庫"},{"start":5483.923,"end":5512.048,"text":"這是你說的吧?我不知道你自己收集資料還是要拿環境部的資料來 我不清楚啦那我這裡再舉個例子給你看啦你現在比如說環境部的有那個探足機的資訊網做公共工程他只列這幾項啦比如礦石啦還有窯業的製品可能像瓷磚之類的啦"},{"start":5512.992,"end":5539.167,"text":"塑膠、管材、水泥、板材、金屬製品但這些資料都還沒有落實所以如果按照我們工程會自己寫的希望在今年年中開始就可以讓廠商、輔導廠商自願性的來填寫碳排放資料我認為你認為我做得到嗎?"},{"start":5540.305,"end":5540.505,"text":"目前這樣看起來齁"},{"start":5557.721,"end":5583.701,"text":"我是覺得你今年你今年要推動啊要很要速度要趕快的要很加油啦你現在根本不可能啦一年至少有3萬件的工程以我們目前的標準啦至少有3萬件的工程你要填爆碳排放量現在這些現在現在施作的廠商他有這樣的能力嗎他有這樣的資訊嗎看起來看起來是完全沒有啦而且啊能夠進行查核廠商填放的"},{"start":5584.421,"end":5586.982,"text":"公共工程委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":5610.609,"end":5634.342,"text":"那麼你這個跨部會之間的以及相關的配套措施啊 工程會這邊希望能夠進速啦 或者要跟環境部那邊要做相關的一個聯繫啦 或者以目前的資料庫你今年就要開始推動的話 我認為根本來不及啦 好不好好 謝謝主委主委你對這個事情你了不了解啊 你知不知道 了解"},{"start":5639.793,"end":5643.774,"text":"林委員發言完畢．現在請李明哲委員發言謝謝主席 有請我們工程會吳主委請吳主委"},{"start":5668.743,"end":5669.064,"text":"吳志偉你好"},{"start":5698.543,"end":5701.847,"text":"昨天晚上我們桃園機場南跑道的稅休然後造成了造成什麼辦了什麼活動你知道嗎"},{"start":5716.602,"end":5731.779,"text":"正送香港來台旅客有飛到日本的感覺瞭解嗎?一個小時再送他三個小時可是我感覺其實這是一個安全的問題那淘機公司或者民航局那另外一個領域"},{"start":5733.479,"end":5758.339,"text":"我們現在談的是T3、R3真的是非常的急迫有這樣的一個需要而不像在疫情的時候感覺沒有什麼客人來沒有什麼航班落地那種感覺那時候陶吉都說我們正好借這個兩三年好好扎實來改善一下這個跑道結果還沒一年當然他定期的稅休那我就想因為這麼急"},{"start":5760.492,"end":5782.066,"text":"我們當時淘機三航廈從原計劃經費746億那前幾天我們機場公司跟民航局來說他說目前預估至少漲三成那按照原始計劃這個比例大概會漲到四成多這個情況"},{"start":5785.879,"end":5786.039,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":5801.357,"end":5801.757,"text":"這案子確實從開始到現在"},{"start":5828.086,"end":5840.775,"text":"我講白話一點今天如果沒有這一個疫情恐怕更嚴重我話是這樣講我是很務實的所以我們一直在督促他們應該要趕快加速來進行"},{"start":5842.318,"end":5842.718,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":5872.418,"end":5899.245,"text":"其實我真的是覺得疫情過後很多的問題看起來真的營建不管是公共工程或者個人的營造工程它面臨的問題我覺得真的沒有太大的緩解一個大缺工的時代第二個在公共工程大缺錢的時代第三個可能面臨到以後居然有可能面臨到高風險的不管是營造或者運輸業無保險的時代"},{"start":5901.386,"end":5922.881,"text":"我過去完全沒有想到怎麼會有錢沒有人要去保的事情都要發生所以像面臨這樣的一個情況都會影響到公共工程第二個我想請教一下公共工程安全的問題像我們現在在簡報上面講的很多都是個人的工程可是我們發覺他都是蠻知名的"},{"start":5923.905,"end":5924.205,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5946.141,"end":5947.122,"text":"公共工程委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":5961.55,"end":5963.551,"text":"公共工程比較少民間工程比較多這個現象就存在"},{"start":5985.91,"end":6003.937,"text":"公共工程會比較少的原因是因為他主辦機關他有在統合、整合從設計、建造、施工解決問題、看出問題來做一個處理民間工程從設計、建造到施工"},{"start":6005.404,"end":6024.905,"text":"各自為政沒有一個統合所以我們經過檢討之後我們建議內政部應該把這個部分要把它統合起來甚至於連那個鑽探也是獨立的那結果資料的互相之間的連結確認很重要所以這個部分我正在推動這個部分"},{"start":6025.706,"end":6049.601,"text":"所以希望透過你這個會議你們專家的一個結論無論如何要提升工程的品質有時候我們做得好民間的企業也會去學所以我覺得互相的學習經驗累積非常重要那我今天要談的最後一個問題其實我覺得真的是危機因為在今年年初我現在已經辦了兩次的協調會第一次是這個兩次都是運輸界就是包括貨車"},{"start":6050.862,"end":6051.322,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":6069.312,"end":6083.717,"text":"可是不保不是說那一家的貨運公司他要出去面對可能駕駛是本身路人可能面臨到很多這個情況如果萬一不幸發生重大事故的時候是沒有人可能就擺爛了"},{"start":6085.339,"end":6100.106,"text":"前一陣子是租用車也不跑後面聽說還會像很多的像營造業我們很多的卡車很多運輸界他到底在我們公共工程或者民間工程是我們主力來載沙石來這樣跑"},{"start":6102.146,"end":6129.921,"text":"我想主委你幫忙真的要注意這件事喔如果我們所有的團隊有一半在過去這樣的一個保險的機制他都不見了我至少現在目前貨車貨運第二個主任業都面臨到保險公司不是不保是完全不保不是提高保費的問題請金管會協調他只能接應那現在的消息是我們營造公共工程"},{"start":6131.423,"end":6145.568,"text":"主委您也看到工商時報做了一個統計營造綜合企業近5年保費這些保險工的收入跟賠多少我們看到2023年保費的收入46.95億它的賠款率到達100%所以"},{"start":6155.707,"end":6174.373,"text":"現在也傳出了有部分的像公共工程也好他們很多人就是不太願意產險工會他們業者不太願意去保當然他講主要的理由因為國際債保市場他們也覺得風險在高了我們要去轉嫁這風險原本可以轉嫁"},{"start":6175.413,"end":6175.593,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6200.933,"end":6200.953,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":6219.85,"end":6237.429,"text":"如果這個事情真的確實落實發生在我們公共工程上面也就是說公共工程發生什麼意外災害對於我們自己在界內的勞工朋友他的保險可能不足對於在外面可能影響到的零損"},{"start":6238.59,"end":6239.01,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6266.857,"end":6268.519,"text":"盧委員發言完畢我們現在請何欣淳委員發言"},{"start":6289.676,"end":6295.471,"text":"謝謝主席,昆喆召委,我們請主委,要不要喝口水沒關係,我們可以等會請吳主委"},{"start":6301.849,"end":6318.9,"text":"主委好剛剛盧委員講的那一件事情在實務面上事實上是這幾年真的很嚴重的情況我覺得公共工程委員會真的是要馬上立即即刻的去跨部會解決接著還有一個是需要我們公共工程委員會也必須要積極去面對而且要跨部會去探討是什麼我們氣候變遷因應法在112年修法過後立法了應該這樣講那立法了之後我們要"},{"start":6330.828,"end":6331.809,"text":"我看到我們公共工程委員會在這方面說實在的我覺得還可以更好"},{"start":6348.002,"end":6355.81,"text":"還可以更有效率像這一次3月10日到14日我們立法院也有一團國會議員團要去日本去參加亞太國會議員聯合會的第52屆的會員代表大會但事實上這一次大會它的主題也是什麼"},{"start":6365.519,"end":6392.681,"text":"也是我們的氣候變遷的這個環境之下未來我們所有這個跨國際之間的一些的一個因應大家要互相交流那我們今天當然是聚焦在國內的公共工程那我就要想要請教這個主委在氣候變遷因應法三讀通過之前呢我就在你們的網路上有爬書到我們過去有所謂的政策白皮書然後呢98到102年有找到一個"},{"start":6394.582,"end":6396.223,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6420.124,"end":6445.682,"text":"顧算的編列手冊的總則裡面原則性的有開始在做開始在進步可是我就必須要問主委這個原則性的東西我跟你講還是讓我們基層的第一線的執行的公務人員或是地方政府很難辦為什麼我們必須要去了解第一個我們目前可以做探檢核或是探足機的第三方驗證單會有哪些"},{"start":6448.334,"end":6468.829,"text":"這是一個我們必須要去面對的問題你不能只公布了一個原則結果呢你根本找不到你知道我們一年有多少萬件的公共工程在進行主委你知道嗎4萬件那你要求我們在1億元以上的公共工程都必須要做碳減合"},{"start":6469.79,"end":6490.138,"text":"去爬梳他們所有的探足機那誰來做這第三方驗證單位有哪些這個有沒有揭露公開資訊讓所有的各地方政府也好各行政單位也好執行單位跟所謂的業界包商大家都能夠找得到這是專業的問題第二個"},{"start":6494.281,"end":6508.598,"text":"我們公共工程委員會在這一方面還必須要求什麼各行政機關要去訂定檢核機制跟檢探目標那現在我看到你們有訂了原則都訂了指引也講了但是呢我們的進度"},{"start":6511.038,"end":6538.536,"text":"我們的進度你有要求各行政單位要提進度跟時程嗎?我不知道因為我在任何的資料上我看不到第三個各部會這個是專業的問題各部會各單位有所謂的探檢核的專業人員嗎?第一線上執行的因為我看到後面等一下為什麼我要講這個工程採購的時候你要求第一線的這些公務人員在辦的時候你要求他怎麼檢核他怎麼落實"},{"start":6541.238,"end":6569.653,"text":"他完全沒有經驗沒有背景沒有相關的專業那我想當然而揣測啦就只好去委外啦那委外就會回到我剛剛講的那個業界能夠做的單位有哪些單位能量足嗎第4個除了我們自己行政部門要要求自己要做之外那我們發報出去了之後產業界又是如何在執行"},{"start":6571.254,"end":6572.749,"text":"這些都是問題,主委你有沒有想過?"},{"start":6574.766,"end":6600.555,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒我覺得碳排的問題是比較先進的一個立法跟趨勢的做法主委其實不是先進我剛剛給你看我們立法之前你從98年就開始有在做了有一些資訊來甚至觀念上的一個在要求了有一些"},{"start":6601.215,"end":6606.117,"text":"公共工程委員會必須要更進一步去做的是如何連結公共工程裡面看含量的估算的標準"},{"start":6629.326,"end":6641.149,"text":"又是如何?剛剛林俊憲委員有提到一點啦他說現在環境部確實有針對幾項比較大項的有所謂的這個碳估算的一個類似標準"},{"start":6642.435,"end":6662.14,"text":"但是公共工程委員會有嗎?我看到新聞是說首波是鋼筋業、水泥業要先來做因為他們也已經正在做甚至走在我們行政部門之前端那我們現在要如何加強跟他們溝通再回到上一頁我必須要講"},{"start":6663.5,"end":6691.089,"text":"為什麼提到這個如果我們的碳含量的估算標準是我們公共工程委員會跟環境部可以好好的做下來來一項一項的來把它講清楚列清楚而且寫清楚那未來你按照規劃你今年起所有政府電子採購網上面要新增一個減碳的欄位因為你強制部會要去填寫新建工程你要先預估碳含量"},{"start":6691.989,"end":6709.274,"text":"我說 這沒有填就沒有辦法完成採購程序也沒有辦法去取得所謂的工程的物料但是我現在就要回到說你要這個第一線執行的公務人員去填這個減碳的這個欄位他怎麼填他怎麼下手去填又委外是不是如果又委外可以嗎"},{"start":6720.862,"end":6721.022,"text":"這個部分我聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽"},{"start":6740.171,"end":6762.093,"text":"我們會來做出一套接一個換算的一個... 不會主委,這樣我先問你說按照規劃今年起所有政府電子採購網都將新增減碳欄位強制不會填寫新建工程預估碳含量如果沒有填,沒有辦法完成採購程序"},{"start":6764.318,"end":6791.693,"text":"甚至會影響到工程物料的取得好,如果按照你的規劃的話想必你已經有一套系統SOP來告訴各政府單位第一線的執行人員在電子採購網上如果他有新建工程他必須要去填這個東西問題是怎麼填?誰來填?我了解委員的意思我們會把它來做規劃所以現在有規劃了嗎?正在進行"},{"start":6792.546,"end":6794.407,"text":"現在進行所以沒有細節現在目前是一個宣導的階段"},{"start":6803.462,"end":6806.162,"text":"你都已經先公開宣布了這件事了"},{"start":6833.348,"end":6835.894,"text":"結果我現在問你第一個怎麼填誰來填有規劃嗎"},{"start":6842.318,"end":6866.761,"text":"有這樣子的專業人員嗎?有嗎?來,誰可以回答?報告委員,我們目前的規劃是這樣那從現在開始到20...就是116年都是在一個過渡期那目前呢我們的資料庫已經正在驗測中大概預估今年6月開放給廠商來舔那這個廠商是什麼廠商呢?我們會分批有比較重要的往"},{"start":6867.942,"end":6891.922,"text":"愈來愈細節來做,所以第一批碳排最大的就是鋼筋所有這些副主委你講的不是我的問題喔我講的是第一個問題你說所有政府部門的電子採購網要新增減碳欄位強制部會各單位填寫新建工程要先預估碳含量是"},{"start":6893.345,"end":6904.219,"text":"那我就請教你我剛剛的問題是這個表示這是由我們政府部門公務人員要填寫的所以我才問說第一個誰來填第二個誰來寫第三個誰來估"},{"start":6905.552,"end":6929.292,"text":"是,這就正如我們剛剛主委講的我們會從方案設計開始做所以一開始所以現在還沒有設計就對了不是不是我是說設計階段工程的設計階段所以工程設計階段裡面它最重要是建材建材占80%所以呢我們會有一個建材的探強度資料庫讓他去乘以他所使用的數量看看你會不會設計的方法來減少我們所"},{"start":6930.573,"end":6959.034,"text":"可是你們公告的宣布說強制部會來填寫不是廠商業者填寫不是設計的廠商來填寫我們會有一個那個計算的那個模型供我們現在建築類我們目前正在跟內政部的建業所合作他會有一個模型供他們來使用那這個模型要多久能夠產生我們正在努力中大概今年一定會上路所以今年6月來得及你說的上路嗎"},{"start":6960.363,"end":6982.921,"text":"第一階段的建材的部分一定會上路然後再過來就是計算模型而且這個建材的部分建材原料八八重乘滿重齁你們怎麼去分別類來做估算?第二個,你們剛剛具現委員提到跟我相同的點那各個工程的相關物料製成裡面的碳盤廠的資料的資料庫的建立這個你們能夠建立嗎?"},{"start":6983.935,"end":7006.387,"text":"報告我們目前的碳排資料庫是由廠商經過14067跟環境部的PCR所以我現在跟你講喔副主委包括你要跟主委報告清楚有兩件事喔一個是我們自己行政部門自己的事情喔一個是產業界業者的事情喔那我接下來要講你們公布說兩年之內八大類工程要先推那兩年做得到嗎"},{"start":7011.906,"end":7014.787,"text":"那你說兩年內要做到、做得到嗎?"},{"start":7037.618,"end":7055.828,"text":"報告委員目前這八大類裡面已經有兩個已經ready了一個是建築一個是水利那這兩個分別一個在內政部一個在經濟部他們都已經把減碳的指引那其他的部會呢那我們就是在未來兩年我建議除了我們政府部門要跨部會之間去協調這件事之外我覺得也要加強產業界的溝通跟輔導這是一定要做的最後的最後"},{"start":7063.001,"end":7087.216,"text":"有一個是你們可以先做的,最簡單的我們台灣銀行有一個共同供應契約平台這個你們都知道嘛,所有各大小的行政部門要做所謂的設備的採購的時候都會上這個共同供應的契約平台這裡面我覺得你們先可以做什麼先從小的做起,先從他們的減碳量的一個資訊的揭露先做起"},{"start":7088.277,"end":7109.726,"text":"在這個平台上面：各大的行政單位都要在這個平台採購：如果要推動減碳：在小孩子先走：你的八大類我也期待兩年之內：你們真的能做得到指引跟輔導好不好是這樣子我覺得要落實啦：要務實啦：才能夠推動政策向前走好不好謝謝"},{"start":7111.172,"end":7127.357,"text":"好謝謝何委員現在要請陳素月委員發言在這邊也做個宣布陳素月委員以及在場的邱若驊委員發言完畢之後我們休息10分鐘現在請陳委員發言謝謝主席請主席邀請吳主委請吳主委"},{"start":7145.393,"end":7160.713,"text":"委員早安在剛剛主委的這個報告裡面有提到就是推動工程的永續發展是我們工程會的一個施政重點那在這個部分其中這個推動公共工程的節能減碳更是首要的"},{"start":7161.413,"end":7163.555,"text":"公共工程節能減碳減核的注意事項"},{"start":7187.575,"end":7207.649,"text":"進行,那我們工程會也希望就是說以身作則在工程這個公共工程的部分來率先做起那因為我們也看到整個公共工程年碳排放量可以說是占台灣整體的這個碳排放量將近一成所以如果說我們在公共工程的這個減碳的這部分能夠"},{"start":7210.331,"end":7226.085,"text":"打倒有這個效益的話當然對整個就是減碳就是包括就是在2030年我們要就是依據溫室氣體減量及管理法要達到20%這個部分應該也是會有一些效益跟幫助"},{"start":7226.846,"end":7226.946,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7243.863,"end":7267.398,"text":"已經預計在今年3月就是要上線有關這個電子採購網要新增減碳的這個欄位那這個部分是指我們業務單位在工程招標的時候要新增的欄位對不對對那所以我覺得說在這個部分就是說我們要推動公共工程的減冷減碳我想牽涉的部分可能有三個"},{"start":7268.7,"end":7268.86,"text":"公務人員．"},{"start":7286.283,"end":7313.965,"text":"他有沒有辦法去填這個估算這個減碳的一個數字那他填的數字是不是合理那是不是會造成廠商他來投標的時候有沒有辦法達到這樣子的一個標準這個都是息息相關的嘛因為我們現在要讓就是公共工程要揭露這個碳排的一個部分所以未來如果說想要來投標"},{"start":7315.025,"end":7336.914,"text":"公共工程的包括不管是道路、橋樑或者是這個建築體包括停車場等等的這些業者的話他不只是要比他的規格、價格還要比他的那個減碳排的這個量對不對如果說他的這個碳排的量沒有辦法達到標準那是不是就沒辦法得標"},{"start":7340.927,"end":7351.351,"text":"應該目前還不會到這個程度還沒有到這個程度我們目前是在這一個推行的階段還沒有到這個決標與否的這個程度"},{"start":7354.514,"end":7374.867,"text":"還沒有到決表與否,所以因為其實我們的一個政策的推出當然就是會引起相關的業者的一個疑慮嘛他們也會非常密切的關心我們這個政策的內容跟實施到底會實施到怎樣子的一個程度所以在這個部分是不是可以請主委再詳細的說明一下"},{"start":7381.927,"end":7394.66,"text":"我們會來針對到底機關要怎麼做、廠商要怎麼做我們要把它做一個很清楚的一個分工而且要可行、做得到馬上來推動出去"},{"start":7396.71,"end":7416.445,"text":"對 就是可行要做得到 那我們現在目前就是邀請業者可以自動來提報 就填報這個減碳的一個數字 所以在這個部分應該是會比較單純一點 就是包括這個混凝土業者或者是鋼筋業者他們可以去努力在這個材料上他們減碳的這個數字 對不對"},{"start":7420.207,"end":7448.705,"text":"對可是這個部分以後就是說在這個部分工程會有沒有也去考量到他未來會影響到的一些層面包括成本的一個提高對於加上這樣的一個要求我想會不會延伸出來對於成本的提升這個我們會來加以來做一個瞭解那麼如果有的話那應該從預算面要加以來考量"},{"start":7449.481,"end":7457.987,"text":"對,因為我想這個都是簽一法動全身因為你如果說整個材料因為我們要求要符合就是減碳"},{"start":7458.831,"end":7483.831,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":7484.171,"end":7512.773,"text":"我們會全盤考量做全盤考量跟評估是好那接下來我來關心一下就是有關那個公共工程就是有關剩餘土石方的這個去化的一個部分因為在節能減碳方面因為我們也是另外一個部分就是要鼓勵這個循環經濟就是有關可以再利用的部分我們就是希望能夠回收再利用所以有關土石方去化的這個部分"},{"start":7513.393,"end":7539.231,"text":"本席也關心很久了其實也有很多業者會來配合我們政府的政策做去化的這個處理那在這個去化處理的過程其實也會牽涉到減碳的一個部分像我們水庫的這個淤泥在清淤之後然後很多專業業者他願意來做這個去化的這個部分可是他們反映一個問題就是說這個"},{"start":7541.192,"end":7559.89,"text":"水庫的淤泥照目前的規定是要先再運到一個堆置場、土質場之後他們再去那邊再去運到他們的鑽窯場來做一個處理可是主委你有沒有想過在這樣子的過程中增加了多少碳排放量?"},{"start":7561.124,"end":7579.823,"text":"那你覺得這個合理嗎?委員的這個建議現在內政部一定要調整修正他原來對於這個土屬方的去處他用一個轉運解決一切那個是一個漏洞那反而對於像剛剛委員提到磚瓦搖廠"},{"start":7582.085,"end":7585.429,"text":"因為我們要減少碳排放量就是要減少貨運的運輸的軌跡"},{"start":7602.768,"end":7619.808,"text":"所以我覺得說在過去在檢討這個部分一直在談可是一直都沒有一個進度那我們也希望就是說在這個部分主委也要來協助來解決然後讓這個實際上實務上能夠更符合我們目前的這樣子的一個政策"},{"start":7620.208,"end":7642.242,"text":"好 這個部分我會繼續來追蹤好 謝謝那接下來我再關心一下有關那個公共工程發包的這個部分那我們當然公共工程發包如果能夠順利的話就是有助於整個這個公共工程能夠如期如止的一個完工也是會造福地方帶動地方的一個發展"},{"start":7642.722,"end":7664.484,"text":"可是我們看到在整個決標的一個過程裡面就是審計部的標準是以第一次招標時就決標的這樣子的一個比例來衡量的話那我們也看到這個彰化縣政府是最低的所以他的留標率是算是蠻高的在留廢標兩次這是我們"},{"start":7665.144,"end":7684.832,"text":"公共工程委員會的標準就是在流入廢標兩次進行第三次招標以上這樣子的一個標準來看章花縣政府也高達了這個9.29%所以在這個部分我們也希望就是工程會能夠盡力的去了解然後協助相關的公共工程能夠順利的發包"},{"start":7686.733,"end":7692.441,"text":"是不是主委是不是可以 這個部分你們會最比較流標多的這些縣市會來給予比較個案的輔導"},{"start":7697.588,"end":7719.735,"text":"會流標當然應該是會有一些原因的可能就是說他在工程設計上或者是相關的條件上有一些問題所以這個我也再回到剛剛我們的這個碳排的這部分就是未來電子採購網就是你們要求要就是揭露的就是這個碳排的這個部分那這個會不會未來會造成我們"},{"start":7720.615,"end":7720.635,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":7744.04,"end":7752.066,"text":"陳委員發言完畢,現在請邱若驊委員發言。邱委員發言完畢之後,我們休息10分鐘。主席好,主委好,有請主委。請吳主委。"},{"start":7770.228,"end":7792.526,"text":"委員你好主委113年公共建設經費持續增加國發會今年2月26號的時候也表示過2024年整體公共建設預算近7800億創立年薪高請問主委工程會如何協助強化監督管理機制以提高"},{"start":7793.707,"end":7821.986,"text":"實行成效．確實掌握工程進度狀況．如何精進與各部會合作．持續監督相關準備作業．及動工前的相關準備工作．以利後續建設之推展。謝謝委員的所教。那麼我們一年來公共工程的經費的合度大概在6000到7000億這個合度範圍內。那麼每一年我們在"},{"start":7823.547,"end":7847.582,"text":"一開始就會要求各機關提出執行的這個進度計畫然後我們會加以列管那麼追蹤如果有這個一方面提醒他們事先應該注意什麼事情避免後面的執行遭遇到問題比方說用地要先解決等等那麼一些困難的問題像請照等等要先完成"},{"start":7849.282,"end":7876.148,"text":"然後按照實際的執行需要去編列他的預算然後他一旦有落後我們會加以來追蹤來督促來這個協調解決問題那全國推動的公共建設加上民間興建大大小小的工程目前工程量能足夠嗎?像是公務人員政府工程專業人員的量能能夠處理這麼多案件嗎?"},{"start":7877.788,"end":7884.392,"text":"目前看起來大型的工程比較會有廠商的未納量的問題"},{"start":7886.479,"end":7889.301,"text":"工程會改善政府工程流標的情況做得如何?"},{"start":7912.734,"end":7920.538,"text":"那劉標的問題我們很認真的在對個案連我自己都在主持這個檢討已經開過300多場的檢討會議那我們檢討起來其實是有這個"},{"start":7928.362,"end":7930.083,"text":"公共工程委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7944.17,"end":7970.8,"text":"你編列預算有沒有依照市場價格編列你的這個供期有沒有合理還有甚至於有一些這個招標文件裡面有一些不合理的現象例如綁標等等這些我們都要求他們去改善之後那麼最後終能夠順利我們像我們在這個上個年度112的達成率達到96.21%"},{"start":7973.221,"end":8001.066,"text":"也算可以順利達成率是主委您也提到就是原物料還有缺工的問題那重大工程面對物料上漲還有原物料供應短缺缺工問題這影響到工期能否如原先計劃時程還有預算是否追加廠商有沒有這個能力能夠繼續興建那請問主委工程會的積極因應指導然後還有對於去年與之前發生的原物料供應短缺"},{"start":8001.966,"end":8023.416,"text":"影建能力缺工等影響到公共工程進行那已經做了哪些對策那成效如何?我們都從流標的這個狀況、個案分別去了解甚至於協調、主導機關怎麼樣去做調整那麼這樣一執行之後我們目前來看那狀況還算好"},{"start":8028.042,"end":8043.512,"text":"缺工的部分,跨部會要如何共同解決?缺工的部分早期對公共工程的這個缺工不引進這個外勞那只要還是要用變勞我們三十幾萬的勞工在營建市場"},{"start":8044.812,"end":8062.977,"text":"缺工的部分我們引進外籍勞工其實現在最早以前才4000個人現在不夠現在我們經過跟勞動部協調已經增加到1萬多到2萬的外籍勞工可以補足這一塊那算可以順利"},{"start":8065.311,"end":8075.54,"text":"在業務報告中提及到的主動協處工建計畫提及掌控部會還有計畫工程標案執行狀況提早發現問題及時協處解決並定期檢討執行成果請問主委可否具體說明相關的實際作為"},{"start":8084.428,"end":8097.395,"text":"這個部分我覺得在機關提醒他們很重要像比方說我們在中央部會的列管來看衛福部一直都在落後那我們就發現他兩個問題一個是對於這一個"},{"start":8102.18,"end":8116.537,"text":"補助型的工程他先給他核定了這個計畫跟經費結果地方還要再去編地方配合款還要再去做設計請照所以這個年度內根本不可能出行這些工程"},{"start":8117.461,"end":8133.94,"text":"所以我們就要求請衛福部分兩階段你要給他先核定但錢不要先列他可以去做那一些先起的工作那另外一類就是大型工程那大型工程的話土地還沒有取得他去編預算"},{"start":8135.961,"end":8151.368,"text":"還沒有耐震評估就加以編列預算所以他預算就足以不出去同樣應該要先核下去給他先進行那一些的先期的作業然後再核進位給他去發報施工這樣來改善"},{"start":8152.748,"end":8180.72,"text":"主委您提到地方各縣市已經動工或是正在爭取合併興建的公共建設計畫非常多以桃園為例本席來自桃園桃園改置為直轄市之後為了加速都市發展持續推動了很多非常重大的建設像是上週五3月1日傍晚的時候行政院有合併通過接應龜山中線可行性研究還有綜合規劃報告接下來也會進入發包作業"},{"start":8181.62,"end":8205.271,"text":"上週五本席捷運已爭取的捷運三陰線延伸至八德的階段的綜合規劃報告也獲得交通部審查通過了後續將進入行政院審議階段請問主委如何協助地方民眾期盼已久還有對解決交通生活等問題促進地方發展的重大建設如期如值的完成"},{"start":8206.192,"end":8227.172,"text":"那他經過這些捷運線經過可行性核定之後後續還要做規劃設計在發包施工我們會來提醒那麼這個市政府這邊後續做規劃設計的時候怎麼樣預先考量的問題讓他不注意後面的流標讓他能夠順利進行我們會主動來跟他們協助"},{"start":8229.935,"end":8231.435,"text":"7位委員發言完畢我們現在休息"},{"start":8283.53,"end":8297.848,"text":"議員吳澤成列席報告"},{"start":8304.087,"end":8307.33,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":9308.186,"end":9310.769,"text":"好,繼續開會。現在請郵務委員、郵號委員發言。麥克風按一下。好,請吳主委。"},{"start":9333.361,"end":9360.343,"text":"你好你好主委你好本席想要就教我們工程會吳主委本席知道您是工程的專家也有非常豐富的行政經驗跟歷練是政治的前輩那我想請教一下就教主委在目前來講您做了那麼久的工程會的主委"},{"start":9361.164,"end":9384.779,"text":"中部是不是可以列舉3個你目前在工程會所列管最關心的一個重大工程在公共工程的列管上面我印象比較深刻的有幾個就鑽造委員說列舉3個第一個就是像淡江大橋淡江大橋的發包"},{"start":9386.66,"end":9400.871,"text":"預算編類設計跟發包沒有連結造成幾次的流標不順利主委直接針對三個列舉就好三個工程名稱然後還有桃機三行下也是一樣"},{"start":9402.602,"end":9410.708,"text":"另外還有最近在臺南發生的跨港大橋的發包流標的案子"},{"start":9432.703,"end":9434.064,"text":"跟主委特別提一下"},{"start":9452.003,"end":9479.106,"text":"在CBN2026正式上路之後那其實工程會期針對相關的指引跟作業手冊其實相信都有許多的一個探討那在探牌的部分其實在很早之前就已經是國家發展的重大的方針那所以說目前的三件還重大工程還在工程會期包括在行政院下是沒有做任何探牌的規劃那也希望在2026正式要上路之後"},{"start":9481.008,"end":9499.609,"text":"這個工程會可以針對相關的單位還有尤其是在國家的重大工程還都能夠來去進行這個碳指引跟碳排的部分那以及說包括重大工程的部分是不是在現在就已經有納入這個碳權管理師還在這個國家的重大工程"},{"start":9501.074,"end":9525.735,"text":"跟委員報告我們在公共工程來講碳排只是其中的一個部分那麼我們更重要的是對於公共工程的一個價值的評估在規劃的時候哪一個方案比較最經濟可以減量減經費可行這方面做得到的話相對碳排就會減少"},{"start":9526.536,"end":9552.759,"text":"好那相信主委您是專家所以說工程的品質您一定非常的清楚那既然國道6號橋樑當時是用碳能來去做一個設計來做碳排跟減碳那本席也期許未來來講工程會在相關的重大工程也能夠做好相關的這個碳排的一個規劃那因為相信這跟工程品質來講它並不衝突那同時就是在"},{"start":9554.24,"end":9580.088,"text":"去年底開始工程會也與相關的一些部會來去做一些溝通那我想請教一下那跟縣市政府有沒有進行這個攤牌指引的宣導目前還在溝通當中在推動當中那我想問一下跟各縣市政府有沒有共同跟縣長或是相關工程會跟縣市政府開過幾次會還沒有那沒關係那我們積極來去推動好不好"},{"start":9580.808,"end":9604.131,"text":"那接著我來提一下南投的建設在2016年還有例行產業道路旁邊的例行國小2016年到2024年這過程中其實它經過了八次的流標它規劃了四年施工四年到最後終於啟用那這個公共工程牛部化的原因到底是因為缺工還是原物料上漲哪一個是最大原因"},{"start":9604.651,"end":9624.981,"text":"我覺得原因應該是工程的變身他的設計施工的可行性那麼有沒有做到是關鍵那這樣子工程會再加把勁好不好那以目前來講全國的這個重大工程來講缺工是主因還是這個原物料會是主要原因哪一個排第一"},{"start":9625.501,"end":9641.646,"text":"我覺得原物料的上漲跟缺工他是一個趨勢但是絕對不是一個工程的本身的主要原因他這個趨勢那我們就要去克服他比如說你這個物料上漲我們就要編足夠的費用來給人家"},{"start":9644.527,"end":9665.717,"text":"從疫情來講這3年到現在相關的原物料還都至少漲了20%那我相信這個原物料是重要原因那我就想要直接就教一下主委那在缺工的部分這個現在目前來講要引進印度的勞工10萬大軍要來台那想請教一下勞動部跟工程會開過幾次會"},{"start":9669.72,"end":9683.564,"text":"開會的幕僚作業應該是有我個人是沒有參加他是我們幕僚的作業那幕僚是不是可以那據我的瞭解印度勞工他是一個增加一個來源國並沒有10萬的勞工要引進這一座畫并沒有"},{"start":9687.365,"end":9688.506,"text":"目前跟相關的單位跟勞動部有沒有討論過幾次"},{"start":9705,"end":9727.29,"text":"我們工程會有派員參加勞動部的那個審查小組的委員那在那邊就有開會好那我跟主委就是補充一下就是因為勞動部啊他其實他在報導上面他提到了他跟經濟部、農業部、衛福部、內政部開會他就是媒體工程會"},{"start":9728.05,"end":9747.001,"text":"那所以本身來講相信勞動部相關的引進外勞一定有跨部會許多的成員一起加入但是在針對如此重要的印度勞工他要來台灣的這個部分啊這個工程會主管是國家重大工程那我想請這個主委能夠要求"},{"start":9747.601,"end":9748.001,"text":"議員吳澤成列席報告"},{"start":9770.691,"end":9786.625,"text":"他開會沒有找工程會可能是針對需求單位再來談那至於引進勞工的來源工程會基本上是支持那我問一下營造業有沒有引進外勞的需求當然有那勞動部怎麼沒有找"},{"start":9789.031,"end":9804.718,"text":"所以說勞動部要檢討他需要單位是在那些部會工程會主是協調單位我跟你講協調單位也一樣會有用到這些需求那本期在這裡就同樣就是請我們的主委那也跟勞動部反映因為"},{"start":9805.518,"end":9825.129,"text":"印度勞工來臺我相信這個牽扯的各行各業那印度勞工來臺跟本勞一樣是有競爭關係如果能夠在本勞能夠就業在17月業務報告三天所寫還能夠補充到外勞那我相信主委的表態但是更要有積極配套好 謝謝接下來請李崑澤委員"},{"start":9839.83,"end":9842.971,"text":"主委你好我們都關心勞工的職業安全其實我們來看臺灣的職災的問題仍然是非常的嚴重如果我們依照勞動部職安署的2022年"},{"start":9867.18,"end":9882.824,"text":"相關的勞動檢查統計聯報來看22年致災死亡的人數總共320人這是5年來的新高那2022年只能施災傷害的人次達到13000人那2018到2022年施能的傷害頻率已經由1.27提升到1.49這是全國致災的一個嚴重的狀況"},{"start":9893.507,"end":9920.486,"text":"我們公共工程委員會在推動相關的公共工程的監督對於職災的一個要求跟保障勞工的這種職業安全應該是作為全國工程的一個表率但是我們來看非但沒有辦法作為勞工安全的一個表率之外我們的違規的建樹"},{"start":9921.755,"end":9932.586,"text":"都是非常的驚人你看公共工程違反治安法的這樣的一個比例2022年違反的這些件數達到17169件2023年違反的件數也達到15241件都是超過15000件的諸位"},{"start":9941.533,"end":9964.11,"text":"那樣態都是集中在違反第6條以及第23條第6條就是沒有符合規定的必要安全衛生設備與措施那23條就是未訂定職業安全衛生管理計畫未設置安全衛生管理及自動檢查人員我們看看職災的死亡人數公共工程"},{"start":9966.132,"end":9991.777,"text":"2023年32件30人死亡7人受傷2022年39件40人死亡11人受傷2021年36件39人死亡3人受傷那樣態都集中在於墜落墜落3年造成的45人的死亡還有物體的倒崩塌3年造成12人死亡"},{"start":9993.109,"end":10002.969,"text":"我一再的督促公共工程委員會必須要針對公共工程對勞工的保障必須要做好但是我們非常失望來主委簡單說明一下"},{"start":10005.703,"end":10027.792,"text":"委員一直以來對勞工安全非常的關心以及一再的要求我們在做法上面也把它列為除了加強宣導之外也列為抽查的主要的項目但是從這樣的數字看起來確實很遺憾不但沒有降低而且有增加的狀況"},{"start":10029.913,"end":10048.161,"text":"我現在我們必須直接來面對問題第一個公共工程的責任是必須要加強的重大職災的分析裡面其實我們來看它的原因因為不安全的設備或者是動作而離災的人數其實是佔了96%"},{"start":10053.898,"end":10077.399,"text":"我們對於公共工程的職安必須要來加強第一個要落實職安的查核要求工程辦理機關來落實政府採購法其實條之一就是我們要協助查核廠商是否有採取相關的防護措施與職安訓練這個部分來公共工程委員會目前的做法"},{"start":10078.716,"end":10096.835,"text":"這個部分的查核我們確實已經在委員的督促之下列為優先主要的查核做得不夠啦必須要落實並且加強第二個我是建議要分級加強查核我們要跟勞動部還有內政部來合作"},{"start":10098.917,"end":10116.06,"text":"就是依照營造工地按安全衛生績效以及營造工地的危險性將工程的現場來分級而且依據級別的不同來增加對工程現場的查核來這個說明一下目前的狀況"},{"start":10116.761,"end":10131.631,"text":"非常謝謝委員不但提出問題還提出建議的方法我們會來徹底的檢討怎麼樣來加強來督促這些機關免於再發生我們會來努力"},{"start":10132.271,"end":10150.183,"text":"另外就是廠商的職安規劃這是一個很重要的目標我們看聯合國對永續發展的議題確保勞工的職業安全永續發展跟勞工職業安全都是聯合國永續發展的一個重要的議題"},{"start":10151.744,"end":10170.011,"text":"我們對於相關的政策要求各機關要優先採用有編制永續報告並且對勞工權益、職業安全有具體規劃的廠商這個建議來說明一下這一個建議我們會納入考量來加強推動來辦理"},{"start":10171.832,"end":10187.483,"text":"我們剛才提到永續發展跟勞工、職業安全都是聯合國重要的一個目標跟議題那永續發展、聯合國的目標跟指標就是希望它涵蓋了環境、社會、經濟、人權的面向"},{"start":10188.163,"end":10203.139,"text":"而且他的ESG就是以環境社會治理三個面向來評估企業組織是否符合永續發展的一個目標當然我們也有相關的政策就是2050年的淨零碳排"},{"start":10204.72,"end":10225.156,"text":"我們的公共工程的碳排放其實我們也有相關的一個統計跟規劃公共工程2021年我們排放2690萬噸的溫室氣體那相關的都有這樣的一個例如一半混凝土連排放464噸約佔17%鋼鐵佔了83%"},{"start":10233.14,"end":10247.328,"text":"其實都佔了台灣的碳總排總排放量大概是9.78工程會也有相關的一個措施工程會也有一個碳強度宣告的政策"},{"start":10248.668,"end":10269.944,"text":"包括我們在事前事後範疇影響都有相關的一個過來來主委簡單說明一下這些我們是根據這個環境部這邊的檢探的政策在推動那我們另外還會從整個工程的這個規劃設計的價值工程會從這邊來切入讓整個檢探量會更多"},{"start":10275.208,"end":10301.23,"text":"好 主委其實我們來看看這個碳強度宣告政策其實我發覺有一個問題就是說我們現在講的都是營運碳就是工程進行中建築物營運後的相關的碳排放但是還有一個很重要叫隱含碳就是原料的提取運輸建築物的養護以及停止使用後的碳排放那"},{"start":10302.113,"end":10325.126,"text":"目前從工程會要求預估跟填寫的範疇來看包含鋼筋水泥製造過程的碳和使用後的營運碳我們隱含碳、原料運輸、竣工後的養護等等這種隱含碳被忽略了無法有效完整的反映出公共工程的碳排情況來主委說明一下"},{"start":10325.946,"end":10353.417,"text":"我同意委員這個建議應該要把竣工後的養護要把它涵蓋進去而且還要從計畫的時候的方案的選擇應該要考量進去我們對於永續相關的措施應該要持續的精進持續加整碳強度宣告就是剛才我們提到的要完整的評估紀錄營運碳跟隱含碳"},{"start":10355.558,"end":10368.549,"text":"這個會讓後續的資料比對更加的完善進而增加評估的準確性那工程會應該要跟內政部還有建議所來合作協助各工程的這樣的一個"},{"start":10371.394,"end":10393.263,"text":"透過協助各工程採購機關透過評估模型從設計階段就開始來計算工程的這個碳排放而且要促進永續的報告跟資訊的揭露那工程會剛才我有建議就是說要逐步的鼓勵工程採購機關要優先選擇有編制永續報告書揭露公司永續相關資訊的業者"},{"start":10400.796,"end":10424.313,"text":"包含永續發展跟勞工安全的保障 這個我們是希望讓工程相關的業者進一步重視環境、社會以及治理等等面向 來促進我們達到永續發展的一個目標 這個主委來最後讓你再講一下委員的建議非常用心而且具體 我想我們會把它納入進來考慮來推動辦理"},{"start":10426.193,"end":10441.223,"text":"主委那因為時間的關係我們還有相關的對於優化機關與業者的這個締約還有要將相關措施提升位階還有要加強採購人員的培訓優化機關與業者締約我們包含研擬敏捷式的開發合約的範本"},{"start":10447.318,"end":10462.25,"text":"另外要持續將相關的措施提升位階就要修正政府採購法還有加強採購人員的培訓要提升採購人員的資安專案這個部分我們再用書面來做一個資料的補充好 謝謝"},{"start":10474.568,"end":10477.892,"text":"好,我們現在請蔡其昌委員發言謝謝,慢慢主席請吳主委請吳主委"},{"start":10496.514,"end":10514.424,"text":"大家好,主委老大我想主委大家都很關心這個2050的淨零轉型2050要達到淨零碳排我想這個全球啊在國際這些政界領袖大家共同努力底下雖然大家都努力啦但很困難"},{"start":10517.192,"end":10533.23,"text":"蔡總統也宣誓2050作為台灣淨零碳排所以國會提出了淨零碳排轉型的路徑等等其中12項關鍵戰略我看了一下其中包括第8項的資源循環零廢棄"},{"start":10534.631,"end":10548.258,"text":"那我也看到政府所提出這個所謂的關鍵項目當中無機材料及利料其中這個大概是公共工程委員會裡面要協助辦理的部分"},{"start":10549.704,"end":10563.996,"text":"那基本上我知道主委對於其實這幾年已經有一些動作努力在做但是對我來講我都覺得這個其實我們應該想辦法來合作讓他效率再提升"},{"start":10566.478,"end":10582.091,"text":"我們知道循環經濟其實在談的就是說其實世界上是沒有垃圾這個東西啦只在於說我們的科技進步到哪裡或者我們處理成本有多高如果處理成本不是很高其實垃圾就是黃金嘛因為它是有效的支援"},{"start":10583.311,"end":10607.317,"text":"在這個架構底下,我只取一種例子,因為時間有限,我只取其中一種例子叫做濾清混泥土我們都要求濾清混泥土一定要刨除之後再鋪設那主委你知道現在堆積在台灣土地上面的濾清混泥土的這些廢料大概有多少數量?"},{"start":10612.455,"end":10622.091,"text":"按照業者提供大概有465萬噸對這個是工會提供的數字那地方政府呢地方政府還有沒有儲存"},{"start":10624.397,"end":10640.38,"text":"現在我已經要求前面做調查到底量多少,我已經答應業者要去前面清查出來400多萬公噸是保守估計換言之有可能500萬、600萬噸的刨儲物這個刨儲物不是不可以再利用"},{"start":10649.273,"end":10659.154,"text":"事實上隨著科技它的運用範圍可能可以更廣換言之透過技術上的研發加工它的強度也可以讓它更強"},{"start":10660.578,"end":10685.537,"text":"但是問題就來了就是誰要來用它也就是說如果我們談循環經濟我們認為它事實上任何我們要追求達到淨零碳排的過程其實任何事情的處理它都是產業啦也就是我們一定要從產業的概念來思考這個問題而不是從垃圾的概念來思考這個問題如果你用垃圾的概念來思考這個問題我認為它很難成功"},{"start":10689.119,"end":10698.773,"text":"就像我知道主委有公告這個所有的地方政府工程的發包一定如果這個所謂的"},{"start":10703.869,"end":10718.095,"text":"這個濾清混凝土的刨除物如果沒有辦法在工程裡面達到平衡地方政府要編列預算給廠商不可以叫廠商事先自己再去引導處理啦我覺得這個是對但是這個對齁只對一半"},{"start":10722.577,"end":10750.974,"text":"這個對只面對工會今天產生那麼多的這個濾清刨除物到處堆砌主委我想你也知道這個堆砌物基本上我們在政府的都市計畫或者政府相關土地的規劃裡面其實又沒有足夠的空間來堆砌這個因為堆砌這個對很多人來講這個叫嫌惡嘛你家的旁邊濾清粉泥土的廢料堆積如山"},{"start":10752.338,"end":10777.664,"text":"可是呢如果我們從產業發展的角度它其實是某一種產業的原料它其實不是垃圾但是我們現在的架構裡面因為產業鏈沒有產業鏈的思維沒有產業發展的思維所以我們當它叫做廢棄物的處理我們概念上還沒有跳脫它是用產業的角度所以我的意思就是說我建議主委"},{"start":10778.752,"end":10801.724,"text":"面對你看齁作為這個濾清的刨除業者他們沒有地方堆砌也到處在陳請他們也希望合法希望政府能夠給他們堆砌的空間那就算你補貼他錢就算地方政府沒有辦法在工程裡面讓刨除去平衡給他錢還是沒有地方堆啦"},{"start":10803.016,"end":10828.231,"text":"對了放在那裡3年、5年、10年對周遭的這個來講大家又嫌惡他啦所以這個就是我講的這個做一半啦就雖然我們有嘗試解決但是我覺得這個解決的方法其實應該更加認真來思索那我剛剛我也想到嘛譬如說你那個我們的那個葉副主委啊他其實對產業很了解"},{"start":10829.093,"end":10855.327,"text":"就是說我們應該整體比如說請業務主委來思考工程會可以扮演什麼角色因為我們從我們的內政部跟環保署在這些所謂的無機材料及利料裡面他們是主辦單位那還有兩個我們工程會都是協辦那我剛剛講過如果用產業的角度來思考這個問題那他應該統合起來也就是說"},{"start":10856.687,"end":10874.466,"text":"到底這400多萬噸他放在哪裡他的內容物是什麼那內容物是什麼產業可以在這個平台上會不會有產業願意投入來將這樣的力量來進行加工或者加入什麼樣的東西他的強度可以變成什麼樣"},{"start":10875.615,"end":10902.835,"text":"所以換言之它其實是一個產業那接著呢這些東西要怎麼收它其實是一個平台也就是說我想要來做這行 加工但是我要去收啦這個也要政府的力量嘛不然你這裡有刨廚房、那裡有刨廚房它要怎麼去收所以架了平台透過研發跟管理那最後就是我們的制度面了也就是說你政府沒有在法規上面去規定"},{"start":10904.789,"end":10919.238,"text":"廠商就不一定會用,他就不一定會使用,除非你的價格非常有優勢所以他其實是一個需要政府來統籌的事情如果我們沒有政府在這裡面扮演角色這個事情其實是做不來的"},{"start":10920.012,"end":10944.688,"text":"所以我的意思是說我們澤良副主委他其實對產業了解所以他可以試圖的統籌因為我看都把工程會列為協助單位而已並不是你們來主導所以我會希望說這個應該有一個高度有一個計畫所以要從產業發展的角度來思考這個問題"},{"start":10946.397,"end":10958.053,"text":"主委你的看法怎麼樣這個問題我講第一個會造成的原因就是政府在執行上面的偏差造成了一個結果"},{"start":10959.383,"end":10977.474,"text":"那麼今天要收尾還需要政府同意委員的看法那麼當初的規定是有問題的他要求人家刨除的利清你越西越左通通要買回去然後你這個工程才能夠用60%所以一定有40%會繼續存在那邊"},{"start":10979.355,"end":10998.86,"text":"他會越來越多啦累積到現在這麼多所以這個部分應該從政府來解決我已經答應歷經業者我們全面的來檢視、調查到底有多少然後怎麼來消化這個東西正確做法不應該讓每一個工程那麼讓他買回去頓在那邊"},{"start":11001.401,"end":11021.678,"text":"應該各該工程從設計就要解決掉你能夠刨除再利用再利用你不能再利用你可以作為底層基層填放料變工程就應該要把它消化掉而不是累積在那邊以後變成很多大堆再來解決那個以前錯誤的現在我想導正這個事情"},{"start":11022.739,"end":11046.15,"text":"所以我想我剛剛講過主委你已經注意到了只是說我覺得要加入產業的概念就是怎麼在產銷透過什麼樣的方式可以把這個平台架起來以後就變成市場機制的問題但是這個階段因為累積歷史的這個工業啦越賺越多啦現在已經怕死人他已經不再是他不再是那個他是環境的問題啊"},{"start":11047.17,"end":11060.682,"text":"很多人都來陳請檢舉堆積爐山堆積爐山你去跟業者叫他們改善他們說他們也很希望看政府可不可以提供給他們土地所以在這種層次思考"},{"start":11061.946,"end":11081.694,"text":"循環經濟在這種程式思考這些所謂廢棄力量這個是對2050淨零碳牌最大的侮辱這是很好笑可笑的事情他連確實有提出來說叫我們協助他找地方給他放出這個東西我個人看法這樣是不對的應該要把這些東西把它消耗掉這不會改過來了這做一半而已"},{"start":11084.756,"end":11100.516,"text":"因為我們在談經營碳排其實這些問題都要解決這個其實就是我們達到2050經營碳排其實首要工作就是把循環經濟做好沒有垃圾這個東西就看我們怎麼去規劃跟設計它是管理、設計、規劃的問題"},{"start":11102.438,"end":11121.903,"text":"然後該有的法規主委你拿該相關的法規我希望工程會能夠儘速來提出那我會持續啦就是針對循環經濟這個問題在工程上因為只有8分鐘太短了所以我想我們就今天先把其中的一個項目我先來提出來好不好我們來努力謝謝主委謝謝好蔡委員發言完畢現在請許智傑委員發言"},{"start":11145.773,"end":11148.694,"text":"主委我一直在關心的就是我們的最有利標那我們的效率好不好"},{"start":11167.711,"end":11194.706,"text":"那也觀察了很多年這一點要肯定工程會的成果啦我這邊列出了從108年到112年那我們持續關心那這個比例呢不管是絕標建樹還是絕標金螺的比例也都有逐漸的提高這個部分也要跟主委跟我們工程會的同仁表示鼓勵跟感謝"},{"start":11196.447,"end":11220.875,"text":"當然今年的數據比例還是提高但是金額為什麼會下降呢?決標件數為什麼會下降這個我有去了解以前是10萬以上就有去統計那現在改成15萬所以雖然決標件數減少因為金額提高不過總比例還是增加的這個部分還是肯定那另外就是說"},{"start":11222.563,"end":11247.568,"text":"為什麼我一直要求說讓政風主計可以去參與事實上我們可以看到最有利標他最大的好處就是量身訂做讓我們穿最適合的衣服他最大的壞處就是有些公務員不敢承擔或有些公務員有一點不一樣的不好的想法所以這個是他的優點跟缺點"},{"start":11248.909,"end":11266.444,"text":"那政方跟主席都能夠參與至少就是表示我都在旁邊看所以第一你不用怕第二你也不能後悔來所以這個部分我們因為他們的參與事實上也有提高的狀況我們當然也要表示肯定"},{"start":11267.285,"end":11290.214,"text":"那我看今年的政風主義參與的比例是降低的以前都每年提高啦那今年是降低的那當然你往好的方面想就是說大家都已經按部就班都就緒了該承擔的承擔該防弊的防弊也越來越好了所以我比例可以慢慢的降低了那這個部分主委你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":11291.421,"end":11313.699,"text":"這方面很謝謝委員一再提醒我們去做這個事我個人非常的認同我覺得讓他們來參加有安內跟讓外面的放心的作用非常的重要像跟委員報告很多的重大案件主動要求像台北港"},{"start":11314.58,"end":11316.942,"text":"對,所以就是說我們這個做法其實是正面的做法"},{"start":11330.394,"end":11354.895,"text":"所以我說我已經觀察了要求了很多年也希望說主委可以一起來重視那包括我們同仁就是說這個方向如何去讓最有利標可以得到說我們買到最適合的衣服又是最好的又是價格合理的又不會讓人家亂做手的我想這個原則對於國家的公共工程的"},{"start":11356.296,"end":11357.357,"text":"現場也都一直在說缺工的問題"},{"start":11380.221,"end":11404.182,"text":"這個部分我們去看從業人員的年紀我們把它看一下就是說勞動力短缺跟人口老化所以大概在45歲到64歲中間是比較集中的那30到39是比較少的那20到29我不知道你們那邊有沒有統計資料那我在猜一定是更少"},{"start":11405.99,"end":11418.824,"text":"那如果提高年輕人願意來擔任營造業或者是相關的勞力的工作事實上現在很多人都不願意嘛那主委有沒有什麼方法"},{"start":11420.477,"end":11444.398,"text":"根據我們的了解現在我們主要勞工還是靠國內的勞工大概有30幾萬那麼年齡也一直在上漲年輕的越來越少這個是事實那最後面我們現在採取幾個除了暫時性外勞來補充之外根本性的解決希望能夠減少工程對勞工的需求"},{"start":11445.259,"end":11466.373,"text":"例如改成預註等等工項把它剪掉工法來減少勞工這是一個方法我另外提一個請諸位參考我們再看下一頁你可以看到我們金紙獎事實上是我們工程會相當重要的一個頒獎典禮"},{"start":11468.43,"end":11470.636,"text":"那這幾年也看到就是說從109、110、111我們都有增加一些項目"},{"start":11476.192,"end":11502.681,"text":"那111億其實個人貢獻職人獎這個我就蠻感興趣的這個讓有一輩子就像日本他們職人獎都很興盛嘛那如果年輕人他要得到這個職人獎可能現在還有困難那我在想說是不是有機會我們來增加20歲到40歲就是說增加他們的一些價值跟榮譽感比如說我那個很會打籃球的我就來幫忙我來頒獎叫做最佳籃球"},{"start":11506.94,"end":11511.363,"text":"我做到白天了對吧?這樣可以頒獎叫做最佳藍鐵也就是說我們鼓勵年輕人來參與甚至年輕人其實現在我們可以看到很多年輕人也是這樣他覺得去餐廳賣菜一個月賺兩萬塊他不可以來現場做最佳藍模、最佳藍鐵一個月可以賺七萬"},{"start":11535.624,"end":11536.045,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":11554.16,"end":11575.665,"text":"現在我們的做法就跟委員講的方向差不多一致一個就是給他尊榮感那第二個就是給他證照制度像給他技術是證照證照技術就是他們一定要去考這沒問題因為他要考上了才有他那個資格讓他有這個尊榮讓他有保障提高他的這個薪水"},{"start":11576.785,"end":11603.668,"text":"所以我的具體建議就是說我們111年爭頒的這個個人貢獻指輪獎可能年長的會居多啦我們也鼓勵青年的也有所以年輕人如何就是說類似這樣子一個鼓勵方式你讓他靠一個榮譽感、要一起一個工作的價值那這樣子我可能願意年輕我就來投入那我們也會比較增加我們年輕人的一個缺工的問題來協助"},{"start":11606.37,"end":11623.845,"text":"對,這方面我們現在正在努力朝這樣再說所以我現在要跟你說的就是奧斯卡,金職獎的職員奧斯卡,你可以贖課分類尤其是營造業,這個很辛苦的所以我覺得最佳燃火跟最佳燃鐵不錯"},{"start":11625.605,"end":11637.64,"text":"這個需要鼓勵我每一次到工地我報告這個名稱啦我會說你那個名稱有趣啦他有價值又有趣這樣他會覺得說我現在得到工程會頒獎金子獎頒獎最佳藍帽來其實是頂帽來的啦"},{"start":11645.522,"end":11655.75,"text":"但是這一種的肉依感不一樣,剛才我在那時候,我在做紅山市長的時候,我跟我們前幾天的隊員都說,其實你們很重要的,如果沒有你們,下次是草莽莽了,其實人家都說,人家來跟你否定說,啊你會得本事嗎?"},{"start":11665.011,"end":11686.973,"text":"就好像在否定你,好像這個職業有分貴賤,這個職業你們是很重要的,你們要有那個光榮感跟榮譽感人家這樣子講是他們不對,我們自己要肯定我們自我肯定自我自己肯定很重要,但是如果政府能夠肯定的話,他那個榮譽感會加倍,加很多倍"},{"start":11688.14,"end":11690.121,"text":"徐委員發言完畢現在請林楚英委員"},{"start":11717.697,"end":11741.935,"text":"林柱英委員．林柱英委員不在現在請王洪威委員．王洪威委員．王洪威委員不在現在請鄭天才委員．鄭天才委員．鄭天才委員不在現在請侯孟凱委員．侯孟凱委員．侯孟凱委員不在"},{"start":11742.856,"end":11761.178,"text":"現在請楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員不在現在請謝一鳳委員、謝一鳳委員、謝一鳳委員不在現在請陳雪生委員、陳雪生委員、陳雪生委員不在"},{"start":11762.319,"end":11782.087,"text":"現在請林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員不在現在請鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員不在現在請麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員不在"},{"start":11783.227,"end":11808.451,"text":"現在請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在現在請蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員不在現在請馬文君委員、馬文君委員、馬文君委員不在"},{"start":11817.974,"end":11834.7,"text":"現在請王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員不在現在請陳俊宇委員發言來慢慢來沒關係"},{"start":11862.418,"end":11867.145,"text":"好謝謝主席那請主席請我們吳主委來請吳主委"},{"start":11875.094,"end":11875.154,"text":"謝謝吳主委"},{"start":11898.425,"end":11911.221,"text":"那我想這個就叫我們吳主委對於宜蘭縣我們未來一個關鍵的黃金10年那這個相關的包括交通、醫療、產業還有我們這個休閒方面觀光休閒"},{"start":11916.187,"end":11936.816,"text":"其實在這幾個面向裡面竣瑜個人認為比較重要的是交通跟醫療那我也謝謝我們這個中央政府對於宜蘭縣的這個部分所做的相關的核定的內容表示肯定那今天因為時間問題我想請教我們這個主委就是針對我們這個"},{"start":11943.812,"end":11967.843,"text":"鐵路高架的部分鐵路高架的部分在我們目前宜蘭縣鐵路高架部分從東山到我們礁溪的這一段到宜蘭的礁溪這邊那總長度大概是15點15.84公里15.84公里那可是對於一個這個非執政的"},{"start":11970.495,"end":11985.155,"text":"這個非直轄市的縣市來講它相關的配合款對於宜蘭縣來講可以說是非常沉重的負擔反觀我們看直轄市對於相關交通建設在推動的過程裡面"},{"start":11985.996,"end":12014.289,"text":"我們這個重大的交通建設可以說中央全額支付的情況都比比皆是那我在此我是想建議說對於這個直轄市的部分像這個宜蘭縣的鐵路高架我們是不是有辦法可以來核定一個這個距離15公里內的這個工程費用是不是由中央全額來支付"},{"start":12015.27,"end":12043.411,"text":"主委您認為有沒有可能?剛剛委員提到的幾個像國立陽明醫學副醫還有這個這個鐵路的高架等等這些這個工程對宜蘭縣都是非常重要的工程項目那現在各部會包括衛福部"},{"start":12044.051,"end":12065.173,"text":"包括交通部都已經在進行相關的規劃後期或這個可行性報告的審查階段那委員希望的是趕快能夠協調推動那這個部分我想雖然不是工程會的主管"},{"start":12065.894,"end":12082.591,"text":"那我願意以這個工程會的立場來邀請這些部會來協調到時候也請委員參加一起來推動讓這些計畫能夠加速的來進行定案來複製實施"},{"start":12083.772,"end":12104.644,"text":"好 謝謝主委因為這個鐵路高架對於我們宜蘭縣要縫合我們東西向的經濟發展是非常重要的一個這個工程那也能夠消弭23個平交道讓我們所有的用路人在通行的時候更加安全所以在此我還是懇切的拜託我們吳主委對這個工程的這個重視"},{"start":12106.045,"end":12116.597,"text":"並且對於我們這個所謂的經費方面能夠有一個更好、更完善的一個配套讓我們在推動的過程裡面可以更順遂那針對在2月份也有一份這個"},{"start":12119.124,"end":12141.179,"text":"反評出來這個反評的報告出來類似有卡關那我也請我們這個吳主委是不是針對這部分我們應該是能夠更好的一個溝通方式來把這個反評的這個問題來解決才能夠順利的來推動我們這個鐵路高架這樣子我相信"},{"start":12142.02,"end":12166.157,"text":"在這個動工跟完工的日期才不會去這個download到所以在此我真的再次的拜託我們吳主委對於這個工程的一個重視還有這個相關環節的這個溝通協調真的要拜託我們吳主委來幫忙因為在1月份我們蔡總統到宜蘭也很明確的指出行政院會"},{"start":12167.538,"end":12195.226,"text":"對於我們這個綜合規劃給予最大的支持那我也希望說我們在各部會包括我們交通部對於這個工程還有後續包括這個高鐵東延還有我們這個重大的這個台62線都能夠一併來做比較好的這個時程的規劃讓宜蘭線對於對外的這個交通路網可以儘早來有一個比較完善比較好的一個打通"},{"start":12195.697,"end":12208.752,"text":"好,我們把這幾個案都列入協調會報來協調委員在一起來主調,一起來努力謝謝主委,謝謝主委好,陳委員發言完畢我們現在請邱志偉委員發言"},{"start":12221.382,"end":12226.41,"text":"謝謝主席。是不是請工程會吳主委跟嚴副主委"},{"start":12233.36,"end":12261.473,"text":"首先我要特別謝謝吳主委跟嚴護主委長期我們過去十幾年的互動不管是各項政策的推動或者是為選民陳情事項的協助我想主委跟副主委都給我們很多的協助跟幫忙解決很多地方的問題跟鄉親的問題所以行政跟立法當然要互相尊重"},{"start":12263.96,"end":12289.098,"text":"對於權力大家一定要都要非常謙卑行政、立法都是為國家人民服務沒有什麼上對下這是匪夷所思這個不要來了立法院就喪失了人性跟明明的人格這個是非常不好的所以首先我對行政部門同仁陸立為公、陸立為國為民表示高度肯定跟感謝"},{"start":12290.382,"end":12314.545,"text":"接下來討論就是之前大概幾年前高雄有一個綠環境館我去運過好幾次嘛還好是吳澤成主委出面去協調人們在那裡看過那開始就知道完全是這個閒置完全是荒廢啊等一下要怎麼辦沒辦法活化一定要工程會來督導"},{"start":12317.413,"end":12341.669,"text":"我拜託各位三位請留意你跟這個市政府做協調然後各方面這個各單位做協調那時候好像是農委會的預算這樣才把這個問題解決把那個綠環境管把它拿掉之後會不會重新招商引資將近100億打造一個智慧化冷電的物流中心這就是"},{"start":12344.372,"end":12347.306,"text":"行政部門跟立法部門大家共同努力的結果"},{"start":12348.516,"end":12376.218,"text":"所以大家共心、大家互相尊重、互相努力國家才會進步所以這點也要盡度下吳主委你看副主委也一樣我差不多一星期參與副主委紀念一次有啦很多我們的算命、澄清事項、很多法律、工程會那些法律很專業公共工程、公共事業、一些跟工程會相關的業務只要是嚴副主委來"},{"start":12377.398,"end":12393.877,"text":"差不多10項差不多9項都改觀尤其為國家利民的做事就是兩位是模範恭喜大家我很感謝也很感動這次另外一項就是興達港新的碼頭我不知道主委要不要去過在嘉庭那裡"},{"start":12397.686,"end":12422.389,"text":"應該有去過。這個里數是差不多到高雄關的時代,楊秋新管理在做管理的時候,他就做了整個青仁碼頭。這青仁碼頭當然比較大利用興達港旁邊的土地,包括有飛鴨樹的土地,包括有郭山樹的土地。所以他要打造成一個觀光休閒這個油氣的一個亮點。"},{"start":12423.803,"end":12424.564,"text":"曾經大概十幾年前還能辦過國慶煙火"},{"start":12437.243,"end":12459.278,"text":"國慶有十幾百人在那裡看 後來就慢慢的關閉合併之後 很多原因就沒辦法好好把這個情人碼頭 把它維持下去 再創這個榮景過去我們的雄心壯志是說 北部有一個娛樂碼頭在淡水 南部有一個情人碼頭在興大港透過觀光休閒 這個娛樂 透過遊艇 來帶動這個協定的發展"},{"start":12467.443,"end":12489.135,"text":"或府內的發展,這是人們的目標。我覺得我做理委也十幾年了。我越看越稀微的看,包括你看一塊設施,很多土地可以做的,包括飛行所可以做的,或是這個汽船可以做的,我都在舊鄉,包括有BOT叫遊艇港,遊艇公司來做這個遊艇港碼頭。"},{"start":12496.78,"end":12499.042,"text":"海洋科技研究中心 海洋科技研究中心"},{"start":12512.394,"end":12530.321,"text":"臺灣的新達海基也在做離岸風電所以它一方面有這個海洋科技研發的一個園區另外一個海洋科技產業的離岸風電園區還有遊艇港碼頭的BOT計畫再看下一張這個有的土地都可以處理的就可以盡量處理現在沒辦法處理的就是國三署在主管的這個青山碼頭以前的一些建物"},{"start":12540.313,"end":12558.187,"text":"這個建物是八角樓,旁邊有沙草叢森,過去八角樓是一個送親人碼頭的一個好的一個賣東西的地方,在那裡休息,看美景的地方,現在就閒置在那裡這是高雄財產署的地,現在每天走過去我就想哭"},{"start":12564.564,"end":12585.63,"text":"好好的地點、好好的風景竟然沒有發生幾位也不是說市政府沒心,這個是屬於國產署的地所以一定要中央用主要的管道協調我們這個同仁羅伊參國產署、羅伊參企業署、羅伊參國產署市政府的協調看要怎麼把這個情人碼頭、這個園區把它活化起來"},{"start":12592.772,"end":12594.453,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":12618.972,"end":12645.271,"text":"謝謝委員的鼓勵這個案子我們馬上來了解好,謝謝主委,等一下好,請委員發言完畢登記質詢的委員均與發言完畢做以下決定第一,報告局詢討完畢委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分"},{"start":12646.469,"end":12657.235,"text":"請工程會競速以書面答覆本日議程處理完畢現在休息3月6日星期三上午9點繼續開會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"15686","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15686","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db471ce9aeb73a155c4f0709a7fb2e74833be8d109af184be4b7cf28d9a59697ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-04","start_time":"2024-03-04T08:31:19+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-04T12:28:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14201,"委員發言時間":"08:31:19 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持才能夠讓我們的農業能夠持續的永續發展以下請就我們農業部的一個業務報告做一些說明"},{"start":1892.079,"end":1903.737,"text":"整個農業部的施政組都大概分為三個部分第一個部分是增加農民福利第二個部分是完善整個基礎建設第三個部分是怎麼樣透過相關的政策措施能夠提高產業的一個競爭力"},{"start":1906.386,"end":1932.34,"text":"在增進農民福利的部分大概我們持續推動我們三保一金的一個農民福利體系包括農民健康保險包括辦理紙災保險擴大我們的農業保險以及建立我們農民退休的儲金那過去這些三保一金的一個推動都相當順利那110年我們也訂定了相關的目標能夠持續的加強我們的一個農民福利體系的一個推升"},{"start":1933.2,"end":1949.616,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":1950.316,"end":1976.13,"text":"農業現在面臨年齡的一個老化正在做一些年齡的一個轉型那我們在學校端也透過了這些公費專班的部分能夠引導我們的新進農民的進到我們的職場那已經在從事農業的部分我們也針對一些相關的這些有經驗的百大的一個青年為典範當作標竿那同時在我們各試驗改良場所的農民學院"},{"start":1976.59,"end":1978.132,"text":"提升農業專業智能,讓農業更永續。第三個部分是有關於"},{"start":1987.905,"end":2009.31,"text":"農業的施政除了照顧我們的農業的從事農業的農民以外我們對於農村的長者我們也持續做相當的關懷推設我們的綠色照護以及農村送暖的這些活動那透過農村的一個長者的一個定點關懷還有一些到宅服務的關懷等部分那我們希望透過綠飲食、綠療育跟綠陪伴"},{"start":2011.671,"end":2023.824,"text":"能夠協助農村的高齡者在地健康老化來展現長者的一個智慧傳承第二個部分是非常重要的整個一個農業的基礎的一個環境的建設"},{"start":2027.025,"end":2054.815,"text":"環境的建設最重要就是有關於灌溉水源的一個確保那擴大灌溉服務及農水路一個韌性的計程車是一個非常重要的一個政策那透過這樣的一個政策我們擴大了灌溉的一個服務從過往的整個的一個農業灌溉系統都只服務灌溉我們已經擴展到灌溉外的服務累積已經到達5.6萬公頃那同時我們加上清淤的一個一個作為"},{"start":2055.655,"end":2058.139,"text":"那同樣的我們更投入更多的經費來帶動農村的一個經濟發展"},{"start":2061.454,"end":2085.715,"text":"第二個部分是怎麼樣讓我們的農業能夠維護在維護我們農地資源保障糧食供應的前提下能夠提高我們的農民收益所以我們農業部設計了一個堆堆式的一個給付方式那除了環境農業環境的一個基本給付以外那透過了一個稻田轉作的一個獎勵的一個制度那同時針對有機有膳"},{"start":2088.217,"end":2111.75,"text":"及產交旅隊部份我們也額外提出一些政策的一個誘因期待透過一個有機有算的部份讓我們的農地能夠更能夠持續永續此外我們在農地有限的範圍之內我們也推動了國土生態綠網及提升了生態的一個服務價值那整個的一個生態系統"},{"start":2112.891,"end":2136.333,"text":"國土生態系統裡面我們已經公開了大概44個一個關注區域然後45條的一個保育的軸帶那未來整個國土生態的一個綠網的建設會持續在這45條的區域保育軸帶為軸心然後向外拓展能夠讓更多的這些保育類的一些資源能夠繼續維持在我們台灣本島"},{"start":2139.417,"end":2166.197,"text":"在基礎環境一切在裡面其實另外一個非常重要的過去農業的相關的施政作為都是投入在生產端都是確保我們的生產品質那這幾年來我們透過了一個冷鏈的一個計畫我們希望說讓我們的農產品能夠更確保我們的到貨品質那到目前為止其實我們已經針對了三個旗艦的一個冷鏈中心然後是四處的區域冷鏈"},{"start":2167.338,"end":2180.636,"text":"那13支的批方市場跟肉品市場建立了一個整個的一個全國的一個所謂的物流網然後希望說透過這樣一個全國物流網的一個建設讓我們所有的農產品能夠確保它的一個到貨品質"},{"start":2183.737,"end":2183.757,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":2202.509,"end":2231.102,"text":"的機械的一個協助那到目前為止其實在110年度其實我們也協助了我們的這些農民購買相關的農機具跟他的一個自動化的一個機具然後也媒合了相關的這些農機共享就是農機的uber讓有需要用農機的話可以利用農機的uber來調度他的一個農機具就續行"},{"start":2232.363,"end":2232.423,"text":"主席"},{"start":2255.001,"end":2278.53,"text":"特別是在非洲豬瘟,我們成功的守護住了非洲豬瘟。我們在109年也成功的口滴疫的一個拔針。目前我們正在積極針對傳統豬瘟的一個拔針。如果順利的話,預計在113年的7月滿一年以後,我們就可以向WHO申請豬瘟的肺疫區。在洋豆方面來講,我們也是一個洋豆肺疫區的一個國泰。"},{"start":2279.704,"end":2300.24,"text":"在植物面相來講,植物的一個植物醫師是農民一直所期待需求的那過去幾年我們用示範的方式我們也導入了大概100位的一個植物醫師在各縣市的一個的基層的農會來協助我們農民做相關的一個植物病床化的一個診斷跟植物的一個營養的一個管理"},{"start":2301.3,"end":2315.509,"text":"這個植物診療師的一個法案現在已經也送到了立法院那也期待各位委員能夠支持這樣的一個法案通過能夠讓我們的整個農民在有關於病種害的一個診療跟診斷的部分有所諮詢"},{"start":2318.799,"end":2340.547,"text":"總務的一個管理在農業部去年8月要成立以後我們特別成立一個動保師那其實成立動保師的最主要的目的就是希望能夠將寵物的一個產業化做有系統的一個管理不管是從上游中游到下游的一個寵物生命紀念我們都有相關的一個政策的一個規劃那我們期待說透過這樣的一個"},{"start":2342.087,"end":2367.226,"text":"從出生到死亡的一個完整的一個規劃從上游的寵物的買賣、繁殖一直到下游的寵物的一個生命紀念都有一個完整的政策的一個配套能夠協助整個寵物的一個管理第三個部分是在有關於提升產業競爭力的一個部分那產業競爭力其實是一個必須持續要去做的一個工作"},{"start":2368.557,"end":2391.082,"text":"非常重要的一個工作重點就是要去推廣有機有膳的一個工作的一個面積那有機有膳除了會因應我們的淨零就是碳排的一個減少以外那針對產交履歷的一個產品的一個驗證也能夠確保我們農產品的一個實的安全那到目前為止有機有膳的面積其實已經推動到24114公頃"},{"start":2394.983,"end":2417.637,"text":"那比107年其實提高了相當的多那產銷履歷的部分也是已經達到了95000公頃那特別在水燉養殖的部分也有相當不錯的一個成績已經提升到將近3000公頃左右那未來的目標我想我們會達到3150公頃的目標那在未來我想我們會持續不管是針對有機有膳"},{"start":2419.398,"end":2421.043,"text":"或是農糧產品的產交履歷驗證或是輿序產品的驗證我們會持續的一個加強努力"},{"start":2426.479,"end":2446.073,"text":"稻米是一個我們國內的一個主食那在過去兩年來我們推動了稻作四捲餐同時也輔導轉做的一個雜糧那其實我們針對我們的民間的糧價的部分產地價已經從趨勢來看從109年開始"},{"start":2450.576,"end":2450.596,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":2470.606,"end":2482.777,"text":"的收購大概74%民糧、34%公糧。那我們期待說透過這樣子的一個民營產地價格的一個提升來提高我們農民的一個真正的一個收益。"},{"start":2485.285,"end":2509.791,"text":"接下來想要跟各位委員說明是有關於我們農產品的一個品牌的一個形塑因為農產品不管是在國內的行銷或是在國外的一個行銷都需要有較好的一個品牌的一個推動那相對的除了國內的部分我們除了透過一個品牌的推動以外我們也有效的開發幾個重要的一個產品的這些國產的這些產品的一個"},{"start":2514.021,"end":2540.395,"text":"檢測的一個技術那特別在茶葉上面來講其實我們已經導入了實際的應用那透過茶葉的檢測我們推動了臺灣茶的一個標示那也只有百分之百用臺灣茶才可以用才可以標示臺灣茶那我們期待說透過這樣的一個就是國產茶的或是國產的這些水產品牡蠣等之類的這些產品的一個鑑別能夠更提升我們國產茶的一個優勢"},{"start":2543.322,"end":2559.835,"text":"同樣的在產交履歷的部分我們也推動到我們的學童營養午餐因為學童是我們的下一代我們必須好好的透過農產品優良農產品的供應來達到他們的身心靈的一個健康那整個的一個校園食材的一個再升級從107年將近50%多左右到了112年底我們整個"},{"start":2567,"end":2578.431,"text":"全國的營養午餐使用3張EQ的比例已經達到98.3那偏鄉的地區也達到97.8的部分那這個部分我想都是大家一起努力所得到的一個結果"},{"start":2580.526,"end":2597.016,"text":"在續行的部分大概分為三個部分除了養豬產業還有加進產業跟草食加續的一個產業那養豬產業的部分透過一個百億基金的部分我們已經陸續的展開整個整合性的一個租售的一個升級"},{"start":2597.836,"end":2625.83,"text":"那目前注射的升級率已經達到35%,2039場那另外在屠宰端我們也輔導了11家的一個屠宰場能夠取得HACCP的一個認證那同樣的我們將一些加工的豬肉已經可以外銷到澳洲、日本、新加坡、澳門、香港等那在生鮮的豬肉部分已經成功的重返了一個菲律賓那在家禽產業的部分來講以現在目前整個"},{"start":2627.922,"end":2648.092,"text":"家禽的這個飼養場的部分不管是雛雞、腫雞、蛋中雞到蛋雞的部分它的整個復養都符合我們的預期然後現在目前的一個雞蛋的蛋產能大概整個蛋雞的大概有3300這個上個禮拜大概3353萬隻左右那整個雞蛋每天的供應量達到2410萬那2410萬已經恢復到我們過往的一個水準"},{"start":2653.114,"end":2668.541,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":2668.681,"end":2692.431,"text":"前面的這些感染大概有24場但是蛋機廠只有一場表示說我們生物安全防護做的已經有精進然後能夠確保我們的整個蛋機的一個產業那草汁產業的部分特別是在牛肉、乳牛的部分我們今年也抱怨就是希望說能夠透過整個弱牛產業的一個升級來提升我們的整個的一個國產鮮乳的一個飲用"},{"start":2697.458,"end":2716.831,"text":"在漁業部分我們強調的是兩個部分,一個部分是最主要是漁港的部分,漁港的部分過去我們投入相當多的經費,不管是在碼頭的一個修繕或是防波堤的一個改善,甚至於整個航道的一個輸進,在各個一類漁港或是二類漁港都有陸續的一個建設。"},{"start":2717.551,"end":2741.425,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":2742.066,"end":2757.243,"text":"針對有一些小型的遠洋漁船的部分如果它不符合相關的這些改善起居條件就是確保我們的漁業人權的部分我們就引導它做相關的一個退場那遠洋漁的部分我們也做相關的一個退場"},{"start":2760.738,"end":2781.963,"text":"產業的一個推動其實絕對不是個人去獨立去奮鬥的所以我們在在整個農糧部分我們推動了一個農業策略聯盟那這個農業策略聯盟現在看起來是相當成功的不管在文旦、在紅凍、在鳳梨或是在咖啡我們成立的這些策略聯盟能夠適度的把這些小農集中"},{"start":2782.723,"end":2806.988,"text":"打群體戰將他的這些產品做一個有系統的這些品牌的一個推動然後提升他的一個產品的一個價值那從這張圖表其實也可以看得到過去我們大部分是仰賴一些農業的這些水特別是水果都仰賴中國的一個市場那中國自從110年開始陸陸續續禁止我們的這些水果或是漁產品"},{"start":2808.668,"end":2826.203,"text":"進到停止輸入大陸中國以後那相對的如果我們看把中國的這些市場排除以後其實我們的對外的外銷能夠還是持續不斷的在增長從38.9億一直提升到大概43到45億左右那顯示說其實這幾年來我們的"},{"start":2833.509,"end":2861.04,"text":"農產品不再仰賴中國的單一市場而且我們成功的開拓了就是高端的一個市場那特別是在美國、加拿大、澳洲、紐西蘭、韓國這幾個國家是我們重要的一些就是我們高端的一個市場那未來我們也會持續針對這些國家進口、出口相關的有關於高質優化的這些水果產品跟其他的農產品"},{"start":2863.171,"end":2880.269,"text":"最後一部分想要跟各位委員說明的是有關因應氣候變遷經農業近鄰並進我們希望說打造一個嫩性的一個農業那大家都知道其實農業受到氣候變遷的影響是相當大的從這幾年來看我們很多天然災害的發生都是衝擊到農業的一個一個"},{"start":2883.032,"end":2883.892,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2909.258,"end":2909.278,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":2928.144,"end":2954.865,"text":"我們陸陸續續在建設相關多的農業的氣象站大概已經達到176站那在112到114年的部分我們也跟中央氣象協會合作要跟增設了150個站那我們希望說透過這樣的一個農業氣象資訊站的一個建設能夠收集到更精準的區域性的這些氣候來讓我們農民能夠針對這樣的一個氣象資訊能夠做好更好的一個自主的一個防範"},{"start":2956.971,"end":2957.672,"text":"農業部門的温室氣體減量"},{"start":2974.438,"end":2990.675,"text":"比國家2050年淨零的目標提早了10年我們在2040年希望達到農業的淨零那農業部門不只是能夠讓我們農業部門達成淨零的部分那整個國家的一個淨零工業部門他到最後沒有辦法"},{"start":2991.776,"end":3011.885,"text":"檢量的時候那勢必靠我們農業部門的協助所以我們對於農業部門的一個溫室氣體的一個減量我們琢磨的特別深那針對整個碳會的部分包括土壤碳會包括森林碳會包括海洋碳會那這兩年來我們持續的相關的去推動特別是在土壤碳會的部分"},{"start":3012.125,"end":3027.142,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":3027.162,"end":3053.277,"text":"在森林碳灰的部分除了新增造林以外有一些新的政策去做獎勵造林以外我們也強化了整個森林的浮域透過國產材的利用能夠將碳封存在整個的一個木材裡面海洋的碳灰的部分就是俗稱的所謂燃炭的部分燃炭部分是目前覺得是有相當的潛力但是相關的技術還是能帶大家"},{"start":3053.677,"end":3053.797,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":3073.311,"end":3087.623,"text":"那整個的一個國家的一個攤位特別是農業部門攤位不能只靠我們公部門去著手其實公司部門的一個協力是一個非常重要的一個推動的一個策略那我們農業部門好帶過去"},{"start":3088.664,"end":3111.534,"text":"一年間我們推動了許多的農業的ESG的一個方案那特別是邀請很多企業界用ESG的一個概念來跟農業做相關領域的一個合作不管是結合綠色金融的永續指標來鼓勵企業的一個參與那同時我們也積極的去建構相關的一個方法學"},{"start":3112.414,"end":3135.954,"text":"現在目前為止大概有6種的一個方法學到7種的方法學目前已經完成草案的研擬或甚至於已經送到環境部的一個審查我們希望說送到環境部審查通過了以後那未來生力能經營、足力能經營或是農地的土壤管理那具有這樣的一個動作的時候就能轉換成我們的一個碳匯的一個價值"},{"start":3136.474,"end":3150.182,"text":"那後續才有可能變成一個碳的架將這個應用國內的底換的專案這個質量、質量減量的專案或是問題正量底換的專案的部分都可以得到一個相當不錯的一個成果"},{"start":3152.113,"end":3173.281,"text":"整個進行循環裡面一個非常重要的就是農業剩餘資源的循環在利用我們在剩餘資材過去很多農作物本身除了重視生產的一個產品以外對於生產以外的東西我們都把它作為農業廢棄物那農業廢棄物過往都是掩埋或是焚燒"},{"start":3174.261,"end":3194.861,"text":"那其實這幾年我們一直對外宣導其實農業本身的權助的一個利用我們已經適度的將農業的廢棄物改成農業的剩餘資源或是剩餘資財那我們希望說所有的剩餘資財都能夠循環再利用不管是材料化、能源化的部分都有相當的一個琢磨"},{"start":3198.364,"end":3221.417,"text":"在整個技術裡面特別是一開始可能大家不是非常清楚所以我們在全台灣建置了303個整個農業剩餘資源循環的一個場域那透過這個場域不管是廢棄、孤包或是群聚糞尿的部分能夠搭配、能夠成為再利用的一個場所那透過這樣的一個示範場域能夠逐步的推廣達到我們整個全循環零廢棄的一個目標"},{"start":3225.558,"end":3242.485,"text":"最後向各位委員說明以提升農民的所得確保我們國人的糧食安全是我們農業部最主要的一個核心目標那未來我想我們會持續推動整個新的一個農業政策來打造我們的全民農業提升我們的農業的一個韌性特別是因應氣候變遷農業韌性更應該更積極的去建構"},{"start":3245.506,"end":3252.629,"text":"以因應外來的環境的挑戰：並投入更多的一個資源來協助我們產業提升競爭力來壯大臺灣的農業讓臺灣的農業未來會更好以上報告謝謝"},{"start":3265.933,"end":3289.289,"text":"好,我們現在進行詢答委員詢答前依照慣例我們做幾點宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要的時候加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘必要的時間延長1分鐘那我們上午10點半截止發言登記首先我們請第一位邱映穎委員請發言"},{"start":3298.238,"end":3301.679,"text":"謝謝主席我是不是請一下部長我們請部長陳部長早部長我想這個剛剛您的報告非常具細彌遺那其實對於農業部有很多的我們其實還有很多的問題想要請教但我先講一個時事題這個是"},{"start":3329.697,"end":3341.043,"text":"這是我前幾天看到這個你們發布的一個新聞就我記得在上一屆的第6會期第7會期的時候其實本席也曾經質詢過就是我們這個犬貓的隔離"},{"start":3344.604,"end":3344.624,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":3366.36,"end":3382.41,"text":"因其很多貓派狗派或者是寵物派有養很多毛小孩的這些愛動物的人士的關心可是我在媒體上面其實並沒有看到農業部對於這一項好的政策的宣傳"},{"start":3383.351,"end":3403.44,"text":"所以其實很多人並不清楚我們所謂的有條件免隔離是什麼樣的狀態我們的免隔離是什麼樣的狀態甚至就是說對於犬貓的這些隔離犬舍的環境改善我們改善到什麼樣的程度是不是能夠請農業部多一點宣傳"},{"start":3404.761,"end":3422.12,"text":"好不好 這個部分農業部能做得到嗎 來部長我想謝謝那個委員的一個關心那的確就是說我們在重新做一些修正以後能夠將我們的一些過去的全包因為我們蘇菲伊區進來一定是7天的隔離"},{"start":3423,"end":3450.24,"text":"現在是一個有條件在從風險可控的前提下能夠做免隔離的部分那最主要是針對他如果說他在輸入前的180天以內以前有施打這些疫苗以後的血清的例價能夠達到標準的時候那他就可以進來我覺得這個應該是簡單、清楚、明瞭的跟愛貓人士或者是愛狗人士就是有養毛小孩的人士跟他們說明"},{"start":3451.241,"end":3479.704,"text":"未來進入寵物進入到臺灣的這些不管是完全免隔離或者是有條件免隔離這件事情我覺得都應該要好好的去做一個宣傳我想我們立刻我們甚至可以多開幾場的說明會我覺得要說明的方式讓更多人其實你不一定要用說明會我覺得現在流行短影音你們用短影音去傳遞可能會速度會更快一點那個大家知道的這個情形會更了解"},{"start":3480.945,"end":3481.365,"text":"已經超過三成了"},{"start":3508.226,"end":3534.985,"text":"超過三成但是部長這個包括您剛剛的簡報裡頭其實也看到我們現在看到的30到39歲現在的資料看起來提撥率是只有7%有再增加嗎27%30到39歲現在提撥率有到27%那為什麼跟我上面拿到的這個資料差距這麼大"},{"start":3536.346,"end":3549.589,"text":"你講的27%是全部還是超頭?全部大概已經超過3,同一個年齡層大概27%好,如果有到27%其實比例上還算很低啦。部長你們有沒有去研議,就是說有沒有去討論過為什麼年輕的農民參加的退休儲金的比例這麼低?"},{"start":3558.035,"end":3558.055,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":3577.102,"end":3577.242,"text":"好,部長"},{"start":3600.717,"end":3616.607,"text":"你剛剛講說很多人還在觀望其實這個政策也實施大概兩三年了啦如果要觀望其實也到一個程度了有沒有可能我們現在開始去加強力道不要說強制啦"},{"start":3617.708,"end":3618.248,"text":"我想委員的"},{"start":3647.697,"end":3662.774,"text":"的說明非常清楚就是說像類似我們的勞工有沒有顧主的勞工主動提撥6%這個部分但是這個部分我們內部曾經研擬過他需要有一個法源因為現在的相關的規定是"},{"start":3663.875,"end":3683.332,"text":"農民提撥多少,我們對等提撥多少如果說我們一開始等於說第一年他只要一加入我先提撥一個百分比的時候那我必須要有適當的法源這個部分我想我們第一個我們內部會再做法源的部分我覺得我們其實是可以來研議嘛對因為農民退休儲金制度也是從零到有嘛"},{"start":3683.993,"end":3708.605,"text":"所以我覺得法院的部分其實我們是可以來研議包括這個6%的基準是從哪裡計算我覺得這個其實我們可以再來討論這件事情總之就是說我們要讓農民提投保的意願增加甚至要更清楚的讓農民知道政府照顧他們的這樣的一個心意讓農民到老了還是有"},{"start":3709.045,"end":3709.846,"text":"部長我再請教您第二個問題現在這個"},{"start":3725.863,"end":3751.257,"text":"民進黨政府在去年公布我們對於公立的大專院校的學雜費的補助我知道其實對於農漁民的子女來說他們念公立大學的比例其實比不上他們去念私立大學的比例當然我們也有農漁民的獎助學金的補貼辦法"},{"start":3753.078,"end":3772.684,"text":"但是這個補貼辦法跟現在教育部的這一個私立大學的補助方案會不會有互相焊隔之處所以互相焊隔就是說他領了教育部的那個補助之後能不能再來請領我們農業部提供的農民的這個子女講座方案"},{"start":3773.644,"end":3796.671,"text":"可還是不可還是有沒有什麼條件的限制那這一些部分的說明其實到目前為止我也沒有得到很充分的比如說農業部你們的保險局或者是農經局對於這個部分的請領資格的說明其實好像也不太夠另外一個我一併把問題問完再讓您一併"},{"start":3798.251,"end":3798.271,"text":"來部長"},{"start":3822.69,"end":3848.63,"text":"我想針對排富的部分因為我們也知道現行國家的高中資已經全部有取消了排富的門檻那我們現在也是在研議配套的這些取消所以你們也在研議把這個排富的條款也把它拿掉大概什麼時候可以有一個定位我想我們盡可能盡快好不好這幾個月之內幾個月之內我覺得最好就是兩個月之內看看能不能"},{"start":3849.913,"end":3868.951,"text":"我們盡可能把在一個月之內把它做一個完整的規劃這個規劃完你因為還要再抱怨取得一個行政委員的同意大概會這樣的方式然後第二個同意您剛才講的部分就是有關於私立學校的講座的部分我們基本上是我們希望因為它現在二則一不能都重複嘛"},{"start":3869.491,"end":3888.374,"text":"如果是2則1應該怎麼樣2則1或者是說你們提供的優惠條件等等我覺得可能應該要再下箱或者是透過各個縣市政府的農業局或者是教育局來進行這一些比較詳盡的說明我想跟委員說明就是更重要的是我們希望說透過另外一類的獎勵"},{"start":3889.315,"end":3889.515,"text":"謝謝部長下來啊"},{"start":3917.545,"end":3923.555,"text":"接下來我們請林黛樺委員請做詢問主席有請部長我們請部長"},{"start":3932.062,"end":3932.342,"text":"下一頁下一頁"},{"start":3956.788,"end":3956.808,"text":"質詢提綱"},{"start":3972.391,"end":4001.098,"text":"經掌握種源就能掌握經濟農業的戰略位置我舉了兩個案例一個是挪威鮭魚跟紐西蘭的奇異果那本席最後主張如何創造臺灣的農業價值就在這個精準農業什麼叫做精準農業就是物種種源再加上基因科技的技術這兩個才是達到所謂的精準農業最後本席對於農業部的智慧農業治理有一個具體的要求"},{"start":4007.002,"end":4028.761,"text":"什麼叫做這個農業治理呢本席所主張的農業治理是這樣子的育種生產自動化雲端化服務教育拍賣資訊大數據的收集最後到消費者端育種最重要是在種源的管理科學的配種精準種的養殖"},{"start":4029.741,"end":4049.652,"text":"在我們過去的政策當中就把這個生產自動化當作就叫做智慧農業了所有的補助都到做智慧農業叫做生產自動化錯的他應該是從總員開始一直到生產自動化最後的雲端服務跟交易拍賣市場的大數據收集最後到消費者端我們的總員問題在哪裡呢目前農政單位所進行的總員品系"},{"start":4058.197,"end":4073.898,"text":"及基因序的管理、各改良廠、思源所、各型歧視、整體的經濟物種的發展及研究、各型歧視、種源跟基因序的管理分散是多麼分散呢?本期再把下面你們只要跟"},{"start":4074.798,"end":4102.886,"text":"總原基因有關的3級單位我全部爬出出來了所以你看他的職長是這樣的分項細化而且是缺乏整合的也因為這樣總原精細的管理分散缺乏國內外市場策略性的布局甚至偏向學術性的研究我國需要的是策略性、市場性及前瞻性的經濟物種總原跟經濟物種基因管理的策略好"},{"start":4104.366,"end":4133.055,"text":"下一頁我們這個經濟物種的種源跟基因收集我強調的種源包括基因的收集就能夠形成農業國際市場的獨佔比如說這個美國他掌握了白肉雞在這個蛋雞的部分就被這個荷蘭法國的企業掌握白蝦種就在墨西哥跟美國下位所以如果這個白雞白肉雞美國他如果在"},{"start":4133.595,"end":4154.111,"text":"他的這個祖父袋或父母袋他不賣給臺灣那大概兩三年後我們也沒得買了只剩下我們的原生種那我們原生種相關的生產是弱化的是沒效率的好我請鮭魚不要動那個鮭魚的不是上一頁好"},{"start":4161.987,"end":4178.359,"text":"經濟物種的部分總圓的收集本席也用這樣表的來呈現從最上端的核心物總圓到下面的主帶總圓到父母帶、親本跟商品單我就以單機為主如果一隻機"},{"start":4179.821,"end":4183.685,"text":"那他產生了85個主袋85隻雞這是純種喔85隻雞當中會父母袋他會有7500隻的純種7500隻的純種在商品袋就75萬隻的純種最後整個市場我掌握了3億枚的雞蛋"},{"start":4197.342,"end":4204.531,"text":"國內的種源應用的問題是什麼?管理、分散且核心運用俱先偏正在父母貸跟商品貸我們進口這個父母貸跟商品貸的進來之後我們就會進清繁殖"},{"start":4211.198,"end":4211.398,"text":"好,再"},{"start":4235.932,"end":4243.976,"text":"國語本身是海放的,他本來是海放的撈捕的漁業竟然在挪威這個大西洋國語的產業是水產養殖"},{"start":4247.318,"end":4273.243,"text":"他占有領先的地位育種就是他不可缺的關鍵技術透過種源的收集及基因選拔技術能夠全面提升新品種的各項性能好你看這張圖這張是美國羅約育種的公司在2000年以前叫做傳統育種就是我看的我目視他好的那我就讓他們配種在後面的2000年的10年他用基因來做輔助選拔"},{"start":4274.483,"end":4293.56,"text":"最後的2011年到現在全面的用基因來選拔物種所以它花了20年的時間全面的以基因來選拔它的品種而且變成水養殖不是海放好另外下一個它也就因為這樣的育種選拔所以能夠讓16個月的生長期縮短為9個月它所代表的是什麼"},{"start":4296.923,"end":4316.622,"text":"我更低的生產成本我較少的碳排放以及更低的飼養風險所以在您的簡報章中你說要碳匯、碳匯啊這就是碳匯啊你導致了智慧農業之後而且精準農業當中的育種你就能夠減少碳排放啊更值得我們驕傲的是什麼"},{"start":4317.182,"end":4317.202,"text":"紐西蘭"},{"start":4339.843,"end":4354.235,"text":"這個呢這個奇異果他的種植面積並沒有大幅增加但是他創造更高的產量跟品系的發展關鍵就是他掌握的品掌握的種源利用育種的技術來開發新品種他的特色有什麼他能夠達到四項除了高品質性能的選拔他還有吸引性機能性跟風味的選拔包括黃金果啊什麼紅色黃金果啦黃色這個黃色紅色奇異果啊甚至他還可以"},{"start":4368.886,"end":4388.37,"text":"到健康土壤在整個育種基因的這樣一個育種的情況之下他還能夠環境跟菌相的管理以及達到無化學殘留那這個就是他們利用掌握種源育種技術的精進好本席在這邊再舉一個案例臺灣可不可行呢精準農業"},{"start":4392.851,"end":4394.513,"text":"來創造台灣的農業價值精準農業掌握物種種源以及基因科技的技術這個基因不是講基因改良而是把每一個物種把它的整個的足譜爬梳出來"},{"start":4407.788,"end":4431.979,"text":"那整個主婦爬出來優良的我們家語配對不是你看到好的結果他同父同母同父同樣的父母其實他根本沒有辦法做育種還是要透過基因科技把他的整個主婦爬出來臺灣國土面積僅有36000平方公里大量生產的粗放型農業根本不適合小國寡民的農業出口也就是說今次"},{"start":4432.759,"end":4451.417,"text":"高附加價值特定種苗的出口模式這種具關鍵技術掌握的農業外銷的模式是我國農業轉型的可評估性我們做不做得到我就以本期的選區高雄0元在這個石斑魚的部分如何能夠精準石斑魚的養殖"},{"start":4453.939,"end":4468.23,"text":"協助他們向速發部來爭取經費所以呢過往你看這個我們過往從腫瘀瘦菌卵到這個魚苗白生寸苗到成魚過往我們都只有成魚的出口我們現在在魚苗這個時候就出口了"},{"start":4469.051,"end":4489.018,"text":"我們在地的業者一個青農他願意接受我的意見我也輔助他到速發部我沒有跟你們申請金我到速發部申請結果他的價值是翻倍目標市場在哪裡馬來西亞好那本行的針對智慧農業的具體建議在我上一屆的時候已經講到農業決策數據平台連你們的決策都要數位化都要智慧化"},{"start":4494.981,"end":4521.423,"text":"決策智慧化所以在這個決策數位平台當中應該納入智慧農業本席要求有這三項納入你的智慧決策數據平台第一個,農業部建立國家農漁牧業的經濟物種及保育物種的種源及基因完整的資料庫並輔導針對目標市場進行的專利佈局我就以經濟物種跟保育物種我講到這個保育物種"},{"start":4522.344,"end":4531.108,"text":"台灣我們都說梅花柱是台灣特有種但是不好意思它經過相關的基因體檢測之後多為外來種的基因因為長期沒有系統化的育種跟存化第二個本席的建議農業部應該參考前述的挪威跟紐西蘭的案例掌握種源行銷國際規劃國家農業經濟市場的布局"},{"start":4546.215,"end":4549.76,"text":"最後整體策略發展因重視國內特有的小農經濟如何結合生物科技業者搭配國家的市場合作策略比如說新南向政策日韓東北亞的市場積極媒合以上部長您有什麼回應"},{"start":4565.283,"end":4584.264,"text":"謝謝委員針對整個的一個相關於農業部部份的一個總緣的一個相關的議題我們現在農業部現在在處理的是一個剛才您講我們叫做數位的育種計畫那數位育種計畫基因的一個完整的資料庫是一個非常重要的所以我們未來大概會分為三個面向第一個面向就是技術的開發"},{"start":4585.285,"end":4608.035,"text":"那技術的開發是針對你剛才所提到的基因的完整資料庫基因的完整資料庫每一個物種基因完整資料庫建立可能3到5年短的話長的話可能10年但是我們會針對我們國內現有的這些重要的物種會先去著手會去做那第二個部分就是一定要是跨域的一個合作像剛才講的生物晶天的部分那我們現在"},{"start":4609.115,"end":4629.097,"text":"農業部跟國科會這邊有一個跟生物晶片有關的部分那你剛剛所提到的是硬體的部分是我們國內做的但是裡面的這些去檢測的基因還是由其他國家去開發的這一定是要跨國合作的那總之未來您提的這三項我就講一個啦去年才發生的啦這個芒果鳳梨啦"},{"start":4631.239,"end":4650.313,"text":"韓國慕尼他沒關係啊這個大陸去中國去賣啊但是因為如果你有掌握種源跟品種註冊這個我們就是品種註冊這才是我們要把人家他即使他們就是中國就是把這個種源掌握了但是如果我們能夠種源掌握我用個品種註冊"},{"start":4651.434,"end":4652.215,"text":"我們接下來請憲伊鳳委員進行詢答"},{"start":4680.834,"end":4681.939,"text":"主席好,我想要請陳部長"},{"start":4693.586,"end":4719.538,"text":"部長好我想請問去年1月的時候我們三足通過農民健康保險條例那我們把農保跟農保職災保險的投保金額從過去的一萬兩百元提高到兩萬四百元那時候我是代表國民黨團的提案所以我們藉此提高了農保的生育給付以及商帳津貼但是發現"},{"start":4720.898,"end":4743.061,"text":"你們那個農業部是不是螺絲鬆了?是不是沒有不想要幫那個農民的這個保險、健康保險啊或者是這些津貼啊加,你們為什麼沒有編列相關的預算?聽說你們積欠農保基金跟農職保基金金額超過15億是不是?"},{"start":4743.681,"end":4756.591,"text":"我跟委員說明當時在增加這樣禮務委員提案一起達成提高這樣的一個收益的時候是剛好在年中那我們整個農保基金本身是在去年就編了"},{"start":4759.353,"end":4785.935,"text":"農保條例有一個規定如果你農保虧損的話中央政府機關一定要提撥做負責會提撥所以我想跟委員說明就是我想也請農民不用擔心說農保會破產這樣的部分像以今年我們撥了272億我不是說破產結果因為你還欠利息阿是不是你欠了多少利息你沒有編列15億的預算已經撥付了利息欠多少"},{"start":4789.946,"end":4792.087,"text":"目前這些農民健康保險條例所規定的這些相關的都是在農會加保對不對"},{"start":4816.395,"end":4840.854,"text":"都是在農會加保嘛都是由鄉鎮農會辦理嘛但是現在農民他們有疑慮的問題在於有時候他是投保A他可能想要轉移到B因為居住地的問題啊或者是其他相關的問題可是他們很擔心欸很擔心老農津貼他是不是有按照年資計算的"},{"start":4841.554,"end":4856.506,"text":"當他在A鄉鎮農會加保已經快要達這個年資的時候如果他移轉到B鄉鎮農會的時候那你怎麼樣子確保農民的這個權益"},{"start":4859.608,"end":4876.815,"text":"我想跟委員說明就是他當他轉移的時候他只要符合資格的話後面的那個資料會連線他會接續的什麼時候開始連線因為其實我在就是說在民間的時候接受到非常多農民的這個陳情"},{"start":4877.915,"end":4899.347,"text":"他們很擔心他們不敢轉移因為他們擔心他轉移從A轉移到B鄉鎮農會的時候會造成他的投保年資重新計算那這個情況你怎麼確保當然你說現在是有勾肌你跟我說你什麼時候開始會連線鄉鎮農會的系統開始連線然後怎麼樣子確保農民在移轉鄉鎮農會加保的時候"},{"start":4907.512,"end":4918.811,"text":"不會損失他們的年資還有那是不是後面的人再去把那個你們15億欠多少利息先查明清楚"},{"start":4919.585,"end":4933.59,"text":"報告委員,因為我們要加入農保,像以彰化縣而言：如果是在西州的農民,他彰化縣的農地都可以加入農保：而他是以戶籍地來加保：如果今天這個：移到旁邊的"},{"start":4939.392,"end":4939.572,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4959.974,"end":4985.53,"text":"不是,現在不是勞保的那個系統可以攻擊而是他會擔心他從A轉移到B的時候那是不是中間的這個年資計算能不能馬上一次到位在他轉移的一開始就把他的年資轉移到那個就是B農會因為你如果沒有一開始轉移農民會因為不了解"},{"start":4987.731,"end":5014.273,"text":"對於我們這樣子的一個就是遷徙的自由可能會受到限制嗎?對不對?是可以所以我這個棉枝是不會有中斷的問題只要它馬上加保它就馬上接續那所以你是不是可以確保就是棉枝在一開始轉移的時候就會重新加保最主要是擔心說它如果失去農保資格它換地方的話"},{"start":5015.253,"end":5033.818,"text":"會重新來認定他的農保資格對你重新換地方又會再就是說這個部分怎麼確定能不能在他移轉的時候先確定只要他符合農保資格加保這個年資都會確定那我們會請各農會來加強對農民做這樣的說明"},{"start":5038.2,"end":5051.856,"text":"不是要加強說明而是你要讓他們再移轉前就確保第一個先確保他的農保資格不會上失第二個你要讓他再移轉前他就可以清楚的了解嘛"},{"start":5052.777,"end":5057.739,"text":"我們會提供一個服務,就是移轉前我們先去確認他相關的這些資訊,這樣的話會比較有效"},{"start":5076.907,"end":5096.609,"text":"第二個就是剛才你委員所提到利息農保的部分是460萬利息460萬是不是農食保是9.7萬好那還有現在在民間大家都認為很多民眾認為我們現在發展的漁電共生都是真重電假養魚"},{"start":5098.07,"end":5117.95,"text":"我想要請問你們漁電工生所產生的養殖的產值是多少以及你怎麼樣子讓民眾不會質疑就是我們的漁電工生是假養殖真重電對於我們發展漁電工生來講雖然我們希望"},{"start":5118.91,"end":5119.11,"text":"是不是?"},{"start":5132.56,"end":5134.642,"text":"那你們查核的標準是不是太低才會讓民眾我跟你講民眾跟我講的他們說"},{"start":5162.364,"end":5164.325,"text":"我非常認同委員的說明就是提醒"},{"start":5191.904,"end":5205.744,"text":"我們農業部一定是以養殖為本綠能加值。我舉個例子,我們在查的強度非常強。像我們在去年,我如果沒有記錯的話,我們查了16場,其中不合格的9場我們就把它撤照了。"},{"start":5206.565,"end":5207.966,"text":"我認為為了解除民眾的疑慮"},{"start":5233.676,"end":5248.308,"text":"我覺得這也是相對的保障漁電共生業者的權利你要來投入這個產業的時候你必須要了解你就是增養值嘛你的產值要增加到什麼程度的時候然後"},{"start":5248.968,"end":5270.766,"text":"對於我們養殖的產值有辦法增加,然後才讓我們綠能加值嗎?是不是?我覺得你這個標準要出來,什麼時候可以出來?養殖的部分,室內的部分有可能增加,但是戶外的部分不可能增加。因為戶外的部分,它可能會稍微降低一點。"},{"start":5271.927,"end":5298.904,"text":"但是相對的我們一定會確保他養殖的一個事實我們都在推廣智慧農業了嘛那我們當然希望說我們的智慧技術可以使我們這些雨電共生我們當初希望發展這個就是希望可以用智慧農業讓養殖也增加然後同時又可以發電所以我才說在室內的這些智慧養殖的部分場子的確是可以提高的所以這個部分我想謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":5299.824,"end":5300.285,"text":"接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做詢答"},{"start":5340.491,"end":5343.494,"text":"謝謝主席,請陳部長來,再請陳部長部長5580萬顆的過期進口蛋"},{"start":5358.595,"end":5358.835,"text":"我現在講很離譜對不對"},{"start":5384.321,"end":5406.535,"text":"你本來在五年內跟我們說五年內要銷毀對不對?對那會不會拖太久了?這裡面有牽扯到很多很多層面的問題第一個你放那麼久那你現在放在那邊又用了人民多少的納稅錢?你現在放在哪裡?現在放在哪裡?在我們的倉庫裡面做冷藏庫存冷藏?你今天還去冷藏?冷凍的,冷凍庫存那電費給倉主的錢什麼時候存?這是人民的納稅錢對不對?是"},{"start":5412.904,"end":5414.045,"text":"是不是人民納稅錢?"},{"start":5414.045,"end":5439.038,"text":"是。那個詳細資料請等一下送給我。好,那我要問除了流標之外,你們有什麼積極的動作去趕快把它銷毀掉?我想整個的一個現在因為已經招標了,但是各縣市本身在利用它當堆肥的時候,它必須同意它把這些廢棄的雞蛋當作資源再利用品項。"},{"start":5440.078,"end":5452.182,"text":"所以現在就是由各縣市政府陸陸續續在接受業者申請把這個廢棄雞蛋當作再利用品項那一旦完成了以後會在120天之內去完成一個銷毀的動作"},{"start":5456.284,"end":5477.581,"text":"從現在今天3月7日你說還要多久?我們是合約是規定是啟動以後120天所以當時要完成銷毀我們是期待如果說陸陸續續開始有有開始有縣市已經同意的時候他就會開始就處理在120天內大概我們希望說在4月底、4月底到5月之間時間,卡定的時間好了你說卡定的時間,完整銷毀喔"},{"start":5480.843,"end":5508.69,"text":"而且我不只要時間,我要明確的要求,這個過程要是公開透明的,要讓民眾可以監督我們之前已經說了,我們在整個消費的過程中會有第三方的人來做監督跟押送那現在的時間點會不確定性會卡在各縣市同意它是成為廢棄物在利用的品項,這個時間點會掌握在各縣市手上所以等到各縣市同意以後,我們就會盡快,現在已經有四個縣市可以了"},{"start":5510.55,"end":5528.322,"text":"市的管制可以?你說目前,你現在抓的時間是什麼?4月第5會期?對,我們是估計這樣,因為我們合約是在120天嘛那現在如果說我們在盡快跟縣市政府聯絡,也拜託縣市政府能夠盡快的核准因為這個基本上沒有太大的意義是合約,就是我們啟動開始運送以後120天啊"},{"start":5532.805,"end":5553.253,"text":"那他會更快因為14家同時啟動就會很快因為當初是在年底標的那年底標的時候我們不是說標了以後開始執行因為各縣市各個那個再利用廠要去跟縣市申請那縣市要合格以後才開始計算第一個責任追究要怎麼追為什麼拖這麼久"},{"start":5563.076,"end":5580.627,"text":"我們基本上從去年開始我們就積極的去做招標的動作那招標因為有流標的動作沒辦法第二次流標後來我們再重新拆開來以後變成運輸、貴運輸、製作堆肥、製作堆肥那我想我們所有同仁在盡心的希望能夠盡快的把這個廢棄基站能夠處理掉"},{"start":5582.248,"end":5582.568,"text":"為什麼會沒有編這個預算?"},{"start":5609.053,"end":5610.174,"text":"所以你也不去申請動用第二億美金?"},{"start":5627.168,"end":5627.368,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5646.278,"end":5647.418,"text":"您的利息是多少?30多元?"},{"start":5677.95,"end":5686.636,"text":"460萬這誰要負?負這筆錢?因為你們沒有做,這個利息錢誰要負責?這都是我的錢阿沒有,這是整個資金的調度是在政府部門應該要處理的阿"},{"start":5688.544,"end":5708.126,"text":"那還好勞保局有去催教你,要不然這個歷期不知道時間拖更久,歷期還要花費更多嗎?是人家催教你們才給人家錢我想我們跟勞保局每一年固定會結算的然後如果有欠的部分我們會再等於說在今年我們在隔年度就一定撥補這是在整個的預算在支出的時候特別是這種"},{"start":5709.708,"end":5718.936,"text":"重大施政新兵預算沒有編,第二個有一個緊急措施用第二億北京你也不要,那你現在要多出利息,這叫調度嗎?"},{"start":5718.936,"end":5732.587,"text":"這完全沒有責任?這個沒有,這個在農保條例裡面規定了,相關的這些農損的虧損,因為本身農保本身我們政府有補助,那相關的保費也比較低,我們政府有補助,那這個部分就會持續有一定的虧損"},{"start":5733.368,"end":5749.155,"text":"那這個虧損都是每一年都是由政府第二年來撥補的。時間有限齁,再問一下公糧收購的這個問題。你知道啊,12年沒有調了嘛,對不對?對,100年開始。那都沒有調,那你知道物價漲了多少?這12年物價漲了多少?"},{"start":5752.223,"end":5778.066,"text":"我想我們跟委員報告,我們內部也曾經算過,其實我們的目的都是一樣的,是希望提高農民的收益。那以這幾年來看,請問農民的收益...現在問題就是我在英港的時辰中南部,像玉嶼橋,我都自己啊,自己農民就是在抗議啊。美食演講他們就講,你知道嗎,這邊的總統打算柯文哲跟侯友宜的共同的政見就是調到公兩啊。而且有志一同喔,一公斤五塊。"},{"start":5779.67,"end":5798.534,"text":"我現在跟你講的第一個,為什麼要調?農民有苦收不出來,所以他們要求立法院幫忙問,這是一個。第二個,物價已經漲了那麼多了,14%,我給你一個更恐怖的數目是,這12年你沒調,基本工資漲多少?快一倍,你農民有時候也在炒人工對不對?"},{"start":5801.465,"end":5817.372,"text":"他的工資都提高了,成本都提高了,你為什麼不調?我跟委員說明齁,我們公糧,因為公糧只占所有的稻穀的收購的30%,70%是由民糧收購的。那你可以看民糧的收購本身這幾年從過去的800塊、900多塊一直到1060塊左右。"},{"start":5823.795,"end":5844.655,"text":"民營的產地價提高那才是確保我們農民收益的非常重要的制度對阿對阿農民不是要講阿他如果可以賣給民間他就去賣啦可是你們收購為什麼不能提高呢沒有我想齁你那麼高你基本工資也漲阿漲了快一倍阿你行不行就讓農民這是農民的心聲欸你是農業部長你要體會苦民所苦就是瞭解民眾要什麼對不對農民要什麼嘛"},{"start":5846.516,"end":5870.625,"text":"農民這樣一直要求,已經說10幾年了都不等了我跟你們報告我們從100年的經驗我們提高供糧收過5塊以後,過兩年以後整個到座面積瞬間暴增,暴增了以後民糧的價格往下降所以相對對農民來講是不利的你看這12年來你看種植的面積降了多少?43.66收穫的面積降了43.66產量也少了36.61啊產量是增加的"},{"start":5876.563,"end":5901.659,"text":"這10年來的稻米的產量是增加嗎?給我一個詳細資料好不好?這是我辦公室追溯的東西。不過至少在耕種上顯然他們因為你一直沒有漲,他一直往下降對不對?你能不能再一直提高?一直到我們倒做四卷山以後才開始往下降。從過去的...又降,後來又降,所以這應該要調啦。你為什麼只有看到漲的,為什麼看到降的呢?那個降是因為我們政策推動倒做四卷山從27萬降到23萬多。"},{"start":5903.74,"end":5925.506,"text":"那過去從那時候調高5塊的時候他從24萬到25萬公頃變成27萬公頃 我知道啦你剛才報告我有看你有統計了5年嘛我現在進一步統計了12年給你看每次漲完之後漲了一點點可是後來就掉下來嘛 你要長期來看啊 我們是用長期的那就是長期就是已經降下來 沒有都提高到27萬公頃左右"},{"start":5926.986,"end":5953.244,"text":"一直到我們政策推動試選單才降到23、24還包括我們現在的目前的這些停慣的部長你是今天的回答你就是堅持不調漲就對了我想在總時訓的時候院長也曾經承諾我們會做整個稻穀的這個價格相關的一個整體的評估那整體的評估不代表就是一定我們一定是找到對農民的收益最有幫助的方案"},{"start":5957.906,"end":5979.636,"text":"你今年你在座的所有的所有的所有的觀念有沒有調清我還是跟委員說沒有我讓他基本工資漲那麼多這是一個common sense啊農民都已經這樣要求因為我們公糧收購有一定的價格像2000公一起做2000公頃是26塊但是你如果說民糧的每百台間到2092塊的時候他就已經超過了我們的那個輔導收購價"},{"start":5984.218,"end":5993.902,"text":"那相對的民糧的價格拉高的時候對農民才是有實質的幫助我了解我了解這是我們共同碰到問題,我們是要幫農民解決問題,對不對?你是農業部長啊,好不好?聽到這個心聲,你們把比較詳細的整個評估,更重要的更重要的"},{"start":6008.609,"end":6023.575,"text":"請禮"},{"start":6039.782,"end":6042.545,"text":"謝謝主席。本席想邀請部長。"},{"start":6063.379,"end":6078.252,"text":"委員部長工糧收購的問題大家不分藍綠白大家一直關心因為農民不斷地在吶喊因此工糧收購的價格從2011年調漲過一次至今12年沒去期間我們的物價已經上漲15%人工、肥料、農業資產這些成本"},{"start":6091.921,"end":6112.828,"text":"農民耕作利益嚴重的縮水所以我給你一個數字2000年的時候陳水扁總統就職基本工資是多少一萬五千八百四十塊2007年調整到一萬七千兩百八十塊薪資調高一千四百四十元稻穀收購的價格稻穀價格調高兩塊"},{"start":6115.529,"end":6143.222,"text":"2008年馬英九總統就任到2016年基本工資調到兩萬零八塊調高兩千七百二十八塊道股調價五塊2016年蔡英文總統的時候就任到2024年基本工資調到兩萬七千四百七十元調高是七千四百六十二但是我們的道股價格竟然調高"},{"start":6144.284,"end":6171.151,"text":"沒有辦毛錢身為農業部長你心裡做的感想請做說明謝謝委員那我想整個的一個稻農的收益我們農業部一定是全力支持的全力支持人家就調那麼多你沒辦法怎麼說明請怎麼說明協助我們的農民整個稻谷的一個收購的部分分為兩個部分一個是公糧一個是我們產地的民糧那民糧的收購大概佔70%公糧只佔30%"},{"start":6173.972,"end":6196.781,"text":"這個你已經說明了無限次但是人民仍舊吶喊所以本席你繼續要回答之前本席要請問你你是否認為公糧收購價格有提高的必要性來確保農民耕作的一個基本利潤我想我們會做整體評估但是我們會以整體最後讓農民收益提高為目標"},{"start":6198.707,"end":6214.197,"text":"結果論是要提高但是人民在吶喊所以這個過程當中我們很多的委員不分藍綠白大家一起在吶喊替農民吶喊也就是公糧已經12年未調漲所以目前工資物價"},{"start":6215.177,"end":6217.178,"text":"現在多少?26塊,調高為38塊這是我們具體的要求請教部長"},{"start":6242.37,"end":6254.453,"text":"我想我提供一個數據就是在今年度本身因為我們的產地的稻穀價格平均到1063我們的公糧收購反而從去年的36.6萬降低到28.7萬表示說我們那個產地價格的提升那會引導農民去繳交民糧那繳交民糧他的收益會更好"},{"start":6268.357,"end":6273.521,"text":"這個是部長你一方的說法但是我們聽到的就不是如此我們是看全方位的我們以實際的數字來看十二年沒有掉一公分二十六個沒掉所以本期在這邊具體我再給你一點時間您說你會全方位的這個來了解我再給你一點時間你趕快去了解"},{"start":6295.038,"end":6295.338,"text":"多久講?"},{"start":6324.633,"end":6324.653,"text":"2個月"},{"start":6338.936,"end":6348.948,"text":"方向可不可以對一個月內告訴我們方案不是方向方向我們已經有了是要照顧農民對不對我先跟委員說不用說因為時間的關係我們一個月內你把你的"},{"start":6356.277,"end":6376.435,"text":"方案提出來好不好是我們再來做討論我希望達到本席所說的你支持嘛要照顧農民嘛對不對我們支持喔你支持嘛好所以目標要提升請一個月內告訴本席喔我們支持農民所得要提高好對支持農民所得要提高所以我要謝謝你但是你要一個月內告訴我們答案"},{"start":6377.075,"end":6403.096,"text":"我們一起加油好接下來本席要請教你的那個讓雞展翅國際聯盟在針對我們17個國家呢廢除淡雞籠的飼養方式非雞籠的轉型措施淡雞動物福利規範的這個三大項那在這個31項裡頭呢台灣排行第6所以本席要具體來請教請教"},{"start":6406.298,"end":6422.145,"text":"您去年這個蛋黃啊到現在我們要摧毀的蛋什麼時候會摧毀你冰在冷凍庫又浪費了人民的血汗錢多少錢請問你要摧毀的蛋什麼時候會摧毀我跟委員說明我們在去年年底已經完成招標請告訴我答案"},{"start":6428.618,"end":6433.961,"text":"今天進口但是中央的職權我們給你尊重但是要摧毀也是中央的責任今天如果"},{"start":6456.933,"end":6486.239,"text":"這麼多的理由一直放在冷凍庫要浪費我們的血汗錢、稅金錢這個人民會唾棄的、不認同的趕快去做好不好?趕快去做好不好?接下來本校請問因為我們去年凍寶汁成立之後我們明明都已經要改善氮基飼養的環境但是成效不彰你到底碰到了什麼問題?立法院全力支持你的預算勒進度如何?請做說明"},{"start":6486.499,"end":6487.48,"text":"部長,你先不要回答。以你的邏輯,任何事情玩不了。"},{"start":6508.553,"end":6512.557,"text":"你每一個年要摧毀蛋因為怎麼樣怎麼樣我說我們第一法院權力的預算也是你們提出來預算權力支持你到現在成效不彰你還跟我講中間因為怎麼樣怎麼樣那我們人民情何以堪啊"},{"start":6524.389,"end":6534.577,"text":"所以我們一直在協調這個過程希望說能夠讓整個琴社的改建的部分能夠順利你請順利資料給本席因為本席非常的希望必須要從根去解決才不會衍生後續很多的問題好不好你順利資料給本席預算全數給"},{"start":6546.184,"end":6552.368,"text":"方案也是你們提的竟然成效不彰你應該要去討論問題在哪裡如何可以簡化加速這才是我們要聽的啊 對不對沒有那個政府自己拿政策預算立法院全給然後你執行不了這該當出了什麼問題啊所以我們在現在跟地方政府跟他們共同的在協助讓他的那個後面的這些阻擋的效果"},{"start":6572.501,"end":6583.332,"text":"但是不行這樣啦!你不行這樣去有白色的!你們這樣欺負老百姓,什麼都推給地方政府!不行如此的啦!對不對?一個政策一起努力是可以啦!但是不可以推給地方政府!我們要從根去解決!這一項本是非常重視!來!"},{"start":6592.321,"end":6613.991,"text":"在2050年淨零轉型的目標你們提早10年2040年的農業淨零目前你的主軸包括減量、增匯循環以及綠區市我給你讚賞但是本期要請教我們投注了10億元的經費要推動農業科技研究對不對?是"},{"start":6616.832,"end":6641.681,"text":"已經一年了你投注了這10億包括了固碳方法、碳匯等你要一步一步的達成目標但是本席想請教在碳匯的主軸最重要的提起到海洋碳匯的這個燃炭有巨大的權利那日本、美國都已經積極的部署你們有匯集哪些單位?請教"},{"start":6642.681,"end":6642.701,"text":"部長"},{"start":6662.639,"end":6673.589,"text":"目前世界上爭取,我們政府的橫向組織都沒有,所以本期看到你們的努力,但是如果這依照你們目前的方向是成效不彰的,本期軍議體給你建議,你必須跟海委會,必須跟環境部,必須跟國科會"},{"start":6682.877,"end":6696.483,"text":"他所轄下的法人國家實驗研究院﹐臺灣海洋科技研究中心等相關單位﹐你去整合國家的資源才不會浪費我們的稅金錢啊"},{"start":6697.731,"end":6697.751,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":6727.711,"end":6728.872,"text":"李玉琳委員請做詢問陳部長"},{"start":6759.242,"end":6771.773,"text":"委員長部長如果會升級為農業部我們希望我們整個部裡能夠成長在你們具體的所有事務裡面成年老案你們應該更加積極的來解決"},{"start":6773.735,"end":6787.291,"text":"所以我們在我們的委員會裡面才會提出討論所以希望你們要進度在解決問題不是用口說沒有法院我們是幫你們解決法院所以我請你們要認真一點"},{"start":6788.652,"end":6814.405,"text":"接下來本席要跟您討論的就是去年3月的時候在我們桃園新竹這邊有六福村這個動物這個東非的這個廢廢逃脫在動物園逃脫出來在這邊在我們桃園、龍潭、新屋、楊梅跟我們平鎮地區在這邊遊蕩我們等於在圍捕當下有經過了18天才追捕"},{"start":6816.826,"end":6841.347,"text":"所以這件事情經過了這快一年的時間我不曉得我們的農業部在這件事情上有做何檢討要怎麼樣去讓我們這個保育類的動物或者在動物園逃脫的動物我們有沒有主責專責的單位在發聲之下有沒有可以派指揮官在現場不管是我們的整個進度SOP還是說潛獵人"},{"start":6842.588,"end":6868.89,"text":"用違補還是違殺的情形我們必須要明確的資訊才會造成遺憾對不對?所以這件事情的話主責單位應該是誰?我想這整個事件因為是屬於地方政府的主責然後中央政府會來協助那第二個部分跟委員說明就是我們也修現在正在送到立法院要修正的業報法的部分因為過去對於這些"},{"start":6870.171,"end":6898.807,"text":"野生動物保育動物逃脫的時候的通報機制並不健全而且沒有任何法則所以我們在修法的過程中已經把這些通報是一定要去處理的那通報完了以後才會有相關的那當然所以發生當下的業主會負責通報跟所有微補的這個費用野保法也是在我們去年的時候你們要送進來的在這次2月23號你們要送進來"},{"start":6900.492,"end":6925.285,"text":"你們才送進來在第4會期我們就討論了說第8會期請要送進來拖了一年2月23日才送進來所以本席才要跟你討論包括監察院也有糾正也有彈劾你們所以這一次特別跟你討論就是主責單位是不是應該以我們中央主管機關我們有正確的資訊給地方政府的農業局農業部跟農業局就必須要配合"},{"start":6926.817,"end":6946.567,"text":"因為你當下的時候這件事情不是一個個案喔全台灣有幾個動物園如果說動物逃脫的時候沒有承認、沒有人認證這個動物是在我的動物園逃脫的責任會是誰?你來責任他各縣市嗎?沒有人來出來認,處責單位就必須要在中央就必須在林業署對不對?當下第一時間"},{"start":6956.152,"end":6973.29,"text":"部長,承擔責任。你要擔當啊。你現在套出來解決這個問題,先來做個微補。如果說這個野生動物是比較凶猛的,有威脅性、有攻擊性,你就當下發生在哪裡,它的足跡在哪裡,馬上就要來搜尋。"},{"start":6974.611,"end":6986.374,"text":"這個就是一起配合不要推卸責任中央地方就要來一起圍捕這個逃脫的動物當然要加強就是合作我現在跟你討論是組織單位當然在哪個縣市發生當然那個縣市就要來負責所以"},{"start":6998.544,"end":7027.032,"text":"部長我希望你們要有態度出來為什麼我說要主責單位你可以有正確的資訊給這個獵人到底是你要圍捕還是獵殺這個要很正確啊不是課程你們責任要隨機承擔解決問題成年老案都要解決就要有擔當的政府政府要做我們的地方做我們的後盾才能夠把問題解決不能一直在推給地方是不是我想我想"},{"start":7027.632,"end":7054.641,"text":"未來這個案件我們也經過檢討相關的更嚴謹的SOP中央絕對不是只是所以我們中央就是主責單位把所有的訊息資訊都要給地方大家共同來負責好不好接下來我要跟你談剛剛講的我們的這個野保法本來在第8會期之前就要送進來了這個是陳吉仲部長之前答應的結果拖到今年的2月23送進立法院拖了一年的時間請問部長"},{"start":7056.701,"end":7084.078,"text":"這一年的時間到底有什麼事情沒有解決卡住了我想在這個葉寶寶的修正裡面有幾個重點第一個售假的部分那時候有很多人不了解說我們的售假是傳統售假其他的套走是可以的售假就是鐵製的售假這都是有傷害的啊相對的就是有很多人不了解他就會有很多質疑所以我們辦了非常多的這些說明會那第二個辦了一年的說明會啊沒有"},{"start":7084.798,"end":7113.642,"text":"我們還有很多那另外針對比較有一點就是針對原住民的部分我們尊重大法官的解釋要尊重原住民本身的話所以在這個溝通上面我們讓整個法案你終於送進來了我們覺得很慶幸你終於送進來了所以最重要是要禁用售假的問題我們基於我們保護動物的這個一個觀念這個理念大家請問一下野保法送進來了動保法呢"},{"start":7115.055,"end":7137.317,"text":"動保法也是去年4月28日那個時候我們農業部就已經有預告了嘛對於我們在強化我們事主的這個責任跟我們保護動物的原則這部分請問動保法什麼時候送進來動保法在我們內部的溝通也都完成還沒送到行政院在今年的部分我們在這期會送到立法院已經快一年了"},{"start":7137.817,"end":7141.643,"text":"三月底才送進行政院到立法院?三月底可以送進來嗎?"},{"start":7150.185,"end":7178.846,"text":"應該沒有,我們創造行政院,行政院會審核完了以後就會出來好,就是這個會期就一定會送進來對,我們小潮都跟各位說4月28就滿一年了希望你們能夠盡快送進來我們希望所有的不管是野保動物或者是我們的所有動物都會獲得到這個保護今天特別提這個問題就是希望把爭議能夠解決不要把案子一直放下去尤其是我們立法院將近有80個版本"},{"start":7179.807,"end":7180.047,"text":"工糧能量"},{"start":7195.071,"end":7210.08,"text":"所有的經濟效益都要保障尤其是我們農民的權益政府要做我們農民的後盾在這12年的供養沒有調整部長您知不知道現在因為我們的這個"},{"start":7211.923,"end":7217.728,"text":"物價波動現在已經增加到16.33%我們的基本工資已經在17,880元提高到27,470元這人工肥料跟我們農業的生產這個資材的成本不斷的上升這個各項的評估成本的上升裡面"},{"start":7234.284,"end":7257.897,"text":"我們農民耕作的利率一直被減少部長你在回答前面的委員都講說我們要保障農民的利率你如何保障你說你會保障不是口說無憑尤其是你說如果抬高價錢的話會議上滯銷會議上過剩這過剩就是我們政府的責任啊你沒有總量盤制嗎"},{"start":7258.997,"end":7264.989,"text":"您沒有轉跟跟做的問題嗎?你可以增加外銷、拓展外銷去來補儲這個我們這個國內的這個產值啊是不是這樣子呢?"},{"start":7272.561,"end":7298.87,"text":"從100年的經驗他原來提高了5塊以後他的耕作面積拉到從25拉到27萬多了2萬多公頃所以他後來的這些民糧的收購所以部長您說我們只要抬高價錢的話就會大家踴躍的去耕作我們這稻米水稻米所以你就要總量管制在這麼多年來經過這12年來你沒有總量管制嗎你不是一直轉座嗎轉根嗎修根嗎"},{"start":7299.85,"end":7299.99,"text":"所以﹗"},{"start":7322.691,"end":7348.764,"text":"我剛剛我們的招委也特別提到了給你一個月的時間我希望你提出來的是支持的態度你支持的態度就是要讓我們供糧來漲價供糧漲多少我們招委剛剛講12塊錢我們從逐步滾動式檢討慢慢調漲這些我都會支持但是一定要漲一定要漲這是鼓勵農民增加利潤唯一的方法"},{"start":7350.097,"end":7351.698,"text":"我會用客觀的一個數據跟政策的分析"},{"start":7379.83,"end":7380.05,"text":"瞭解"},{"start":7413.442,"end":7432.255,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請蔡議員委員請做詢答謝謝主席 那有請部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":7440.999,"end":7456.044,"text":"部長好部長那個淨零碳排吼我們現在農業部吼力拼要提早10年啊所以這個淨零碳排當然包括減量、增匯、循環、濾漆、濾漆室那我想要問部長就是說啊教練這樣這個幾回吼"},{"start":7457.805,"end":7465.848,"text":"那未來農民要怎麼在進行碳排的時候包括農漁民那可以變成他們利用增匯來增加所謂農業的一個價值這個附加價值阿你那個價值是什麼"},{"start":7471.907,"end":7493.103,"text":"我跟委員報告他特別在減量跟增會的部分跟農民有關的就是農地的一個土壤的管理的辦法那那個是農地的土壤管理辦法的相關的這些規範我們已經規劃好也送到環境部那邊包括森林包括海洋我們更重要就是說"},{"start":7493.843,"end":7494.624,"text":"對啦,我就是很期待這個阿"},{"start":7509.045,"end":7536.525,"text":"所以我覺得這個是要趕快去推動的嘛﹖比如說它的價值嘛﹖它怎麼用這樣去換匯的那個方式嘛﹖我減碳那我看現在高雄也成立了我們的這個碳源交易所嘛﹖碳源交易所也開始在做那個方法學的研究那你們現在送了幾個方法學我們現在送的應該是三個已經送到那個環境部去然後還有四個已經我們已經快要完成了那這三個是什麼"},{"start":7537.105,"end":7552.061,"text":"那三個就是森林、竹林跟土壤森林、竹林跟土壤,森林就是包括我們說的嘛,包括林下經濟嘛,包括他去平地造林嘛,平地造林,然後他種樹要種有好的樹嘛對,然後他要怎麼去產生他的價值嘛"},{"start":7557.967,"end":7558.187,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":7576.053,"end":7577.174,"text":"現在就是因為農民如果用一個人一個人的話他的價值並不多而且很麻煩"},{"start":7605.896,"end":7625.316,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":7625.416,"end":7626.977,"text":"那不早請問那就海洋的部分"},{"start":7652.839,"end":7671.636,"text":"海洋是一個大家都說很有潛力但是相關的技術都還沒有很成熟那以現在來講我們這邊澎湖的部分有些海藻床海藻床的部分我們現在開始在海藻嘛對不對阿雄我一直在意的就是蚵仔嘛"},{"start":7675.918,"end":7691.129,"text":"我跟委員報告,柯克本身並沒有碳,因為他的二氧化碳的排放大於他的吸收所以柯克本身他並不是碳的一個淨的吸收者"},{"start":7692.209,"end":7706.97,"text":"所以你覺得牠的牌放在PC手上因為已經成長過程中的消耗掉的二氧化碳有沒有比它固定的還多這個是我們現在的專家研究出來我們要用企鵝仔附加價值的機會就借了"},{"start":7707.33,"end":7722.724,"text":"對,但是相對的,用循環在利用的價值很高,我跟委員報告,過去羅勒康本身只可以做肥料,好不好?我知道現在有這麼多,對,我們都開放了,他可以用來輪胎,輪胎 有人在做水泥壩,也有人在做一些化妝面膜,甚至有"},{"start":7727.808,"end":7756.635,"text":"把那個蚵粉也可以去做去做那個海水淨化啦現在這就是因為農業部把這個那個用途開放了以後現在有很多所以蚵殼本身的再利用是有錢的好沒關係因為講到了這個牡蠣啦那我要進一步的去講因為現在大概我們從越南進口進來的我們不要說早熟的我們說學發一年大概逐年攀高啦大概在112年的時候已經逼近這一個"},{"start":7757.315,"end":7761.878,"text":"每年大概都是用1000公噸在提高的。我看他們112年每個月的分佈。高峰差不多就是在8、9、10、11。"},{"start":7777.229,"end":7794.355,"text":"阿如果以這個整個蚵仔的產季齁大概也是在中秋前後大概是那個咱齁蚵仔的產季齁收成量最多的阿抓收成量最多的時候抓進口最多這是什麼道理阿因為咱在吃蚵仔咱也不會分季節阿"},{"start":7795.899,"end":7822.894,"text":"我先報告,進俄羅斯的人都對我們本來俄羅斯的產量都很有掌握所以他通常都是在這個產季然後我們國內的產量不足的時候來進口啦所以才會看到這個趨勢當我們的產季然後我們的產量可能受到氣候因素影響產量比較低的時候有沒有他這時候進來他的價格會比較高所以我們現在的目的就是說我要想辦法讓我們的國產的蚵仔"},{"start":7824.855,"end":7824.955,"text":"主席"},{"start":7841.311,"end":7859.43,"text":"對嗎?對你還吃蚵仔你有去看廣告嗎?那表明說我們外國沒有我們中國有,沒有啦,都在你說當初啦啊我們當初的產季就剛好90月算是最多啊,算是孫晉浩最多我看起來這個就是都要雲霧粉珠啦我覺得這個真的要"},{"start":7860.931,"end":7871.72,"text":"你們要用心然後去做好他們進口的 他們進口我們沒辦法中董嘛可是至少我們要做一些管制嘛 不要讓這個進口去影響到了我們在地科農的一個收成這樣好不好"},{"start":7878.667,"end":7892.901,"text":"我想非常謝謝委員這個部分我非常重視特別是當我們的那個額外的進口額外我們可以有技術去區分跟國產區分以後我們的台灣額外的標章我們會去加強就去推到那現在比較有問題的可能是"},{"start":7894.381,"end":7897.543,"text":"農產品生產驗證管理辦法﹖把它列入散裝食品應該要標示產地的一個法源﹖"},{"start":7917.074,"end":7927.025,"text":"那這樣的話你再產生那個傳統市長的話你也要擦牌子你如果你不能去跟人家說那是牌子不然我擔心這一個這一個努力的成績保護在地的蚵仔不要受到進口的衝擊這很重要那抱歉主席都把錢分清了"},{"start":7934.133,"end":7944.557,"text":"昨年小選颱風之後,我還是要跟我們整個農業部勾勒啦,你們在推動黃小玉,你們很努力在推動這個,這是轉做雜糧,去年這兩年就追加了一千公頃的玉米面積,我們都賭到,摘下的時候,哇麻煩來了"},{"start":7956.314,"end":7974.498,"text":"災害來的,我覺得你們在遇到很多事情的時候在處理的時候都很僵化,我們再一次的小雪林颱風那也災害全面性的,全面性的災害,然後有這麼多我們這裡的農民,他就已經打他,所以他就打補,打補下去,然後去小雪林颱風找打他,所以他就快要新的種子再進補"},{"start":7982.352,"end":7988.073,"text":"我還可以找那個帶根的人證明我可以出去我買了兩次種子的證明結果後來就是沒辦法"},{"start":8005.658,"end":8019.167,"text":"我覺得他如果以這樣的觀點來說沒差我們在推動黃小玉你看玉米齁種植玉米尤其飼料玉米的齁我之前也有要跟那個書長我有跟他講過嘛我們在那個河川齁差不多我們那個河邊的井有壁的啦齁那個河堤啊齁河川的工地種植玉米的"},{"start":8027.392,"end":8045.414,"text":"他們的收入,因為飼料玉米不夠,飼料玉米有時太好賣、太貴,他單價比較低,所以他也沒辦法收入到達了兩萬塊以上的,我們的農會的農保會不認定,然後因為他種植飼料玉米去影響到他的農保資格"},{"start":8046.355,"end":8061.649,"text":"這件事也有紮實發生所以我看到就是說我們這麼努力的在推動種植雜糧轉做然後種植轉做黃小玉結果種植雜糧的福利好利益就是比較賣讓大家說我前10年我不會輸次等公民"},{"start":8064.091,"end":8083.815,"text":"我覺得這件事我們檢討一下好不好我跟委員報告我現在已經要求運動人齁我們現在利用我們的勘栽的APP像你剛才說的齁他如果說受損了以後他照相啊因為那個軟體是我們農業部開發的他可以標他的點位有那個軟體我知道啊這樣的話那個軟體我知道啊問題就是說有的農民就是老農齁他就不知道我們就直接宣傳他就不知道啊不然他就說啊不然我有八項證明啊"},{"start":8093.84,"end":8106.33,"text":"我想我們會研究當然說我們要鼓勵他們去做拍照甚至我覺得我們應該要利用台灣在發展無人機的時候以後類似這種全面性的拍照就無人機去做一次那個"},{"start":8108.272,"end":8126.047,"text":"我們會做一件事,不要讓這個慷慨都讓基層的公所人員他們在那邊痛苦萬分,因為他們不知道怎麼認定,好不好?好,我跟他說,我們還有很多事,農業,你們很怕病,但是我們都有很多東西,要替我們的農民來想,盡量讓他們改善就好,這樣好不好?好,謝謝"},{"start":8134.858,"end":8152.202,"text":"好 謝謝我們接下來請陳庭菲委員請做詢答那麼我們待會呢因為中午我們不休息那我們到鄭天才委員詢答結束休息5分鐘請各黨團通知你們的這個委員謝謝請發言謝謝莊委我們請部長我們再請部長"},{"start":8162.237,"end":8187.723,"text":"部長 這個我們現在農嶼民子女的助學金開始申請了然後一直到4月1號那一天我有向你們來反映就是說私立大專院校學雜費減免政策上路之後然後我們的農嶼民子女的助學金並沒有滾動式檢討所以造成"},{"start":8189.399,"end":8210.072,"text":"現在很多人沒有辦法去做這樣的相對申請因為幾乎很多都有受到遭獨施力的都會得到學雜費的減免政策可是在我們農民殖民助學金裡面有一個要點是說你不能得到這個大專院校的學雜費的補助"},{"start":8212.95,"end":8237.875,"text":"那麼你才能申請這一個農運民的弱勢助學金所以這個部分你們到底什麼時候要滾動式調整跟委員說明其實我們內部已經有在檢討但是因為基於政府的相關的補助不能重複領取以用助學金的時候我們就沒辦法所以我們現在想辦法用一些獎勵的方式獎學金的概念那這樣的話就可以"},{"start":8239.326,"end":8242.508,"text":"但是這有問題啊因為你們這個部分是在先嘛農漁民子女助學金已經是太久的一個時間私立大專院校學雜費減免政策這個是新上路的"},{"start":8257.719,"end":8272.633,"text":"是因為你們沒有滾動式檢討那你知道現在有多少的農漁民子女原本有領這個弱勢農漁民子女的一個助學金因為這個政策之後他等於這個也不能領了他等於不能領了"},{"start":8275.95,"end":8299.446,"text":"因為整個政府的 現在就是說 雖然說我們比較早 對不對 他們後來新的政策比較晚 那我們就算我們再怎麼滾 滾動檢討的時候 他就只能擇一啦 所以我才會說我現在用不用助學金 不是啊 那你知道你這一個部分你有去計算過 到底有多少人 因為這一個上路而沒辦法拿到這個助學金的"},{"start":8300.366,"end":8303.288,"text":"幾乎都是啊,除了他本身,對啊,4萬多人欸,這嚴不嚴重?那4萬多人怎麼辦?怎麼會因為說政府另外向得證,然後搞得我自己助學金沒有辦法申請?"},{"start":8319.554,"end":8325.58,"text":"那怎麼申請獎學金我們現在避開政府同樣的助學的概念那怎麼申請獎學金因為現在我們從各農會、漁會都得到這個訊息這個訊息跟我們講的就是這麼清楚說有很多他們的農漁民過去有在申請助學金的這些子女現在面臨這個問題啊"},{"start":8346.378,"end":8351.725,"text":"所以確實嘛4萬多個人嘛他可以去領另外教育部的部分嘛然後"},{"start":8353.615,"end":8358.878,"text":"部長你怎麼會叫他去領教育部的部分現在是你們農漁民子與資助學金原本可以領的變成不能領你怎麼可以讓小孩領教育部啊?他們可以自己選嘛如果他選那邊的話我們用獎學金的方式是我現在是講你相對配套啊配套就是這樣子對啊獎學金要怎麼申請你們還沒提出嘛我們現在在"},{"start":8383.257,"end":8407.406,"text":"報告委員,我們會研議讓他不會領獎學期是寵物住學金的問題那這一部分我們會在下學期開申請之前我們會提出方案所以這個學期就沒有了這個學期他是要一般都會選取那個領取那個教育部那一部分的金額比較高當然啊但是那公立學校還是有在領這一部分是啊"},{"start":8408.206,"end":8411.488,"text":"部長,4萬多個人不是4千多個人或400多個人4萬多個人這個全國你們怎麼會沒有提早去做因應"},{"start":8434.144,"end":8457.251,"text":"然後等到現在大家提出來面對問題了你說下學期那這個學期等於沒有這學期要怎麼補救你們也要想啊因為預算就編在那裡嘛我想我們用這一學期的成績到年底這個成績我們可以來設計在這一學期的部分有沒有辦法用成績的部分就直接獎勵他然後比較正式的好什麼時候要把這個辦法弄出來這個學期辦法一定會出來吧不是"},{"start":8464.673,"end":8485.785,"text":"你剛講的下學期用獎學金這沒有問題那這個學期呢你說要用我們的學期分數嗎報告委員就是用這個學期的學期分數在學期到下學年度學期開始之前就可以讓他受理申請"},{"start":8487.332,"end":8499.159,"text":"那是補下學期阿我知道 我也有那個意思齁我們會來另外想辦法在這一期剛好是空窗期的部分嘛對啊 這空窗期阿也沒有問題嘛你是不是有一個叫所謂緩衝的辦法就是說你今年對 就是說因為"},{"start":8510.106,"end":8528.459,"text":"我們因應施立大專院校學長費減免政策上路的部分然後有一個因為我們的助學金不能重複領取的狀態所以為了要補救不能影響到我們鼓勵這些農漁民子女他們"},{"start":8529.62,"end":8530.522,"text":"是不是?了解"},{"start":8543.895,"end":8567.209,"text":"我想我可以同意委員的一個建議就是在這個空中期我們另外設計一個獎勵的方案啊是啊正式的是從下個月期開始然後這個月期的這些獎勵方案我們回去再研議看有什麼方案是啊讓我們的從事農漁業的而且也可以說你們在下學期做申請的時候你們因為是以這個學期的對"},{"start":8568.59,"end":8585.164,"text":"成績嘛,一併嘛,所以就是兩,變成是兩個學期嘛,損了之後就是兩個學期嘛,那到了明年之後我們就歸於正常嘛,一個學期一個學期申請嘛,這樣就OK啊,好不好,兩個月喔,因為你有兩個月嘛,你也不會活啊,對不對,對你要先公告啊,而且我覺得你兩個月也來不及欸,你這樣公告怎麼會來得及?"},{"start":8597.54,"end":8615.883,"text":"因為學期我們學期是到6月底啊我們行政規定的話公告就就實施了公告就實施喔你要來得及讓他可以申請喔所以部長我們就這樣子做決定喔做決議喔就是"},{"start":8616.764,"end":8630.861,"text":"你們兩個月要提出農漁民子女的獎學金申請辦法去補救我們這一次私立大專院校學雜費減免政策上路之後有"},{"start":8632.369,"end":8656.552,"text":"部分農漁民子女因為不能重複領取助學金的這個因素然後受到影響的這個部分我們要來補救這個部分然後在後面的學期部分我們就以獎學金的方式來做一些這個持續鼓勵的動作這樣子好不好"},{"start":8657.473,"end":8674.693,"text":"再麻煩兩個月我們這樣子才能夠讓這4萬多個人不會因為說怎麼政策好像沒有辦法接替然後好像沒有辦法去做一些統一的一個處理的方式這個部分麻煩 謝謝"},{"start":8683.086,"end":8701.412,"text":"謝謝部長 這個問題我想農業縣的委員都在這裡很感謝陳立委員率先提出因為大家都一直在看看農業部怎麼做所以剛才達成一個共識就是這個助學金未來是改為獎學金的方案"},{"start":8704.321,"end":8728.095,"text":"對 所以你們必須要在兩個這個月內你們要提出那個方案然後呢送交這個陳委員以及經濟委員會因為這個是每一個人都很關心維繫到4萬多這個孩子的一個權益嘛好不好如果你在兩個月可以提早你可以提早出來你趕快把方案出來"},{"start":8730.157,"end":8746.773,"text":"來來來那邊因為這個很重要因為後面的委員一定都會問我們把它理清楚就成為委員會的一個決議啦跟剛剛公了的一樣啦我們大概在一個多月之內完成一個規劃我們還沒有公告之前先跟委員這邊做溝通先送到經濟委員會來"},{"start":8747.814,"end":8754.402,"text":"讓委員會了解有什麼修改的、維繫的意見完了以後我們報約完了以後就馬上就公告了好不好那我們是不是就這個議題今天呢到這裡因為經濟委員會都是非常的那個和諧的我們有兩個議題啦到目前為止第一個就公糧的這個部分一個月內"},{"start":8767.096,"end":8791.177,"text":"你們要送你們的方案出來然後送到經濟委員會來這第一個那第二個就是我們這個農民民的這4萬多個孩子的一個權益那也請你們在一個半月你一個半月先弄出來然後送到經濟委員會我們再協調一下OK然後再正式來公告好不好這樣子會比較好這樣OK嗎好那我們這兩項就做這樣的一個決議齁"},{"start":8794.241,"end":8802.546,"text":"對對對沒有邀送給經濟委員會主席來這邊宣布啦好不好那就這樣好不好陳委員謝謝喔那待會有同樣的議題這個議題我們就已經做這樣的這個經濟委員會的決議好嗎謝謝接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做巡打謝謝"},{"start":8829.593,"end":8833.396,"text":"議事主任,請協助一下。"},{"start":8854.786,"end":8859.308,"text":"主席、各位委員、請部長。我們再請陳部長。部長,有關農民退休儲金。"},{"start":8874.488,"end":8882.582,"text":"上一屆完成了法例對於農民退休儲金的制度110年1月1日開始來辦理"},{"start":8887.389,"end":8914.103,"text":"立法的一個修法的過程的立法的過程當中也要謝謝這個農業當時的農委會這個對原住民族的這個相關的因為平均移民的關係有配合來做一個處理所以在法制上是有考量到原住民的部分那我們看這個農業部的報告"},{"start":8915.143,"end":8921.588,"text":"到112年抵止提繳受益人數約10.4萬人也就覆蓋率為未滿60歲即提繳資格農保備保險人34.6萬人的30%希望你們的期望是"},{"start":8937.976,"end":8957.707,"text":"113年度提交農民退休儲金之覆蓋率目標為35%這個要繼續加油但是我們現在看的是原住民的部分剛才是30%的原住民的部分總共未滿65歲即原住民身份之農保人數13694人"},{"start":8962.542,"end":8981.683,"text":"提繳農退儲金之原住民人數只有783人而已 這個整個比例才6%跟30點多 30%差距真的是非常的大"},{"start":8983.083,"end":8987.604,"text":"我們看這個農民人數最多的我們先照比例花蓮縣有1830人提角的是176占10%是最高的但是距離30%還是落差20%那我們看台東台東是6%南投5%"},{"start":9012.165,"end":9019.89,"text":"平均更低只有3%這個部長知道原因嗎?"},{"start":9022.291,"end":9041.863,"text":"我跟委員說明,第一個先謝謝委員支持這樣的一個法案然後第二個部分就是整個農民的退休儲金都是透過農會在宣導我知道我覺得很多的,我們了解很多的大部分的原因是因為農會的推廣本身可能還需要再加強"},{"start":9042.623,"end":9070,"text":"所以這個部分特別是針對原住民的部分我想我們會啟動包括我們試驗改良當中我們有一個原鄉服務團我們會上去讓在受訓的時候在上課在任何機會都要把這個訊息傳遞給我們的原住民然後我們也會透過原鄉地區的這些農會加強相關的一個宣導這個你們要加強宣導是一定要的然後怎麼樣去了解為什麼"},{"start":9071.347,"end":9078.931,"text":"為什麼會比例這麼低?他們的考量是什麼?有什麼樣的考量?還是怎麼樣?順便了解這個相關的問題。我們會收集相關的資料。繼續加油。好。"},{"start":9099.98,"end":9126.559,"text":"我們看這個延期法第19條這個零務集現在叫零業署零業保衛署延期法19條延住民得債延住民主第7以這個水保署的業務的話就是採集野生植物集我現在談這個部分那森林法現在的森林法"},{"start":9129.938,"end":9141.394,"text":"從9393公布到現在生靈為原住民族傳統領域土地者得採取生靈產物,原住民得依其慣俗需要採取生靈產物"},{"start":9143.51,"end":9167.118,"text":"因為一直沒有修了所以這個本席在原住民族基本法第34條104年修正的這個增加第二項法律還沒有修的時候可以解釋這是延期法30條第二項也謝謝當時的農委會也配合依延期法這個34條第二項做了解釋"},{"start":9168.479,"end":9191.836,"text":"把這個所謂的傳統禮儀解釋為原住民主第7但是畢竟一直透過解釋是還是要修法還是要修法還是要把這個原基法還是要配合原基法第19條去修森林法第15條有什麼困難嗎?"},{"start":9194.582,"end":9199.585,"text":"委員所講的這個我們非常認同那也會在我們修法的這個部分納入未來不會再是只傳統領域好這個就既然解釋也都解釋了就把它法制化"},{"start":9219.444,"end":9230.173,"text":"最後一個議題,農業發展條例第三條,農業用地指非都市土地或都市土地農業區保護區範圍,然後要興建農舍的話,有規定面積不得小於0.25公頃。"},{"start":9239.185,"end":9267.926,"text":"農舍用地面積不得超過該農業用地10%這樣的一個規定然後這個都市計畫法臺灣省施行細則29條第二項也規定都是一樣的規定我們的重點在哪裡呢這個相關的這些都是都是需要這樣大的面積我們就舉一個我們原住民族的困境在哪裡呢"},{"start":9269.521,"end":9284.834,"text":"我就擠這個一個部落,列兩部落這個被列為化為我們的部落被化為都市計劃區的農業區部落都市計劃的農業區然後這個農業區因為是農業區這一筆土地2292.13平方公尺"},{"start":9299.224,"end":9327.993,"text":"很大的面積但是只能蓋一間農舍蓋一間農舍所以當我很多農舍的興建像宜蘭之前以前一直被勾變嘛那是另外一個問題但是對於原住民族的部落部落因為都是被化為都市計畫的農業區或者是非都市土地的"},{"start":9330.531,"end":9355.467,"text":"農業用地甚至林業用地甚至是我們的部落被化為在這樣的一個情況之下怎麼樣去解決因為這麼大的面積只能蓋一間農舍事實上我們兄弟姐妹分家就沒辦法蓋所以我是建議要請農業部能夠支持"},{"start":9358.499,"end":9387.745,"text":"原住民族部落的範圍內的農業區的或者是農業用地他要興建自用住宅的土地得化設為建地當然這個前者會涉及到內政部啦會涉及到內政部國土計劃法、區計劃法、都市計劃法所以這樣的一個議題要請農業部未來能夠支持可以嗎"},{"start":9388.817,"end":9398.611,"text":"我跟委員說明喔,如果您剛才講的部落是聚集的部分,未來在國土計畫的話,它會被劃分為農事那劃為農事的話大概就可以解決這個問題"},{"start":9401.371,"end":9419.537,"text":"現在是這樣子,我知道每次的回答都是國土計劃法,但是一直遙遙無幾,所以這個部分...現在看地方政府,因為聚落如果聚集在一起的時候,特別是部落的部分,它可以化為國事,因為現在地方政府在公展它的國土計劃圖"},{"start":9421.218,"end":9449.203,"text":"然後相關的意見這時候都可以去陳述那後續我們中央在審查的時候我們也會考量特別考量這一點所以我說你們要特別支持好好謝謝好謝謝好那我們張家俊委員尋答結束我們就休息5分鐘來請張家俊委員請做尋答尋答之前剛剛那個主委有特別說看地方政府因為我們早上還有一個議題就是"},{"start":9451.121,"end":9480.519,"text":"但消費的你們現在4千萬要地方政府但是地方政府呢有很多他沒有化製廠你的蛋殼跟蛋液蛋液沒有辦法去那個混化爐所以這個你們變成沒關係本期就是希望不要都一直做地方政府你們要針對那個議題去解決問題才不會一直拖我們拖一天你的電費又要花多少錢好不好我們也希望去把問題理清真正有答案嘛"},{"start":9483.481,"end":9507.959,"text":"主席我想請部長好我們再請陳部長部長我想您是從基層做起能夠擔任到部長也非常的不容易那本席對你也有非常大的一個期待我想先首先請問你因為今天大家一直都在問你公糧收購你個人對於公糧收購是什麼樣的一個看法"},{"start":9509.895,"end":9510.036,"text":"為說明齁其實"},{"start":9512.526,"end":9541.127,"text":"就農業部來講對於稻農本身我們一直希望透過不同的政策能夠讓稻農的所得提高那本席先問你您記得最後一次上一次公糧收購是什麼時候100年提高100年嘛所以已經13年沒有提高了100年的時候就是本席在經濟委員會提出要這個提高公糧收購的價格那您知道"},{"start":9542.543,"end":9544.904,"text":"今年基本工資是多少嗎?不知道27470你知道從100年到現在基本工資漲了多少嗎?你不知道沒關係本席告訴你超過"},{"start":9565.734,"end":9581.614,"text":"五十趴五十三點六三趴所以這十三年來我們公糧的收購的價格一直維持在二十六元你覺得這有照顧到農民嗎這有站在農民的立場思考嗎"},{"start":9582.871,"end":9596.62,"text":"我跟委員說明喔,基本公司的條章這是一件事情,但是我們我再繼續問你,你知道13年前央苗一盤是多少錢嗎?你知道今年央苗一盤是多少錢嗎?不知道"},{"start":9600.057,"end":9613.127,"text":"所以部長我真的希望你可以好好地瞭解基層農民的需求本席告訴你13年前央苗一盤是28塊至30塊今年央苗一盤是40塊漲了33%那本席再問你13年前插央費一分地多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":9628.53,"end":9630.291,"text":"那你知道肥料"},{"start":9658.738,"end":9684.17,"text":"從100年到現在,漲了多少嗎?漲了啦,肥料、農藥都漲了兩三成我沒有特別要你去解釋,我只要告訴你說這麼多資材都漲了我們公糧收購都沒有漲所以你贊不贊成公糧收購應該要調整"},{"start":9686.46,"end":9688.401,"text":"我想要知道部長你跟那個院長同不同調"},{"start":9711.187,"end":9735.027,"text":"我想當時我也在院長旁邊 我們會後也聽了整個院長的一個答詢 院長是說我們會整體的去做評估讓公糧跟食糧都可以提高 這個我接下來再問部長 部長如果你對公糧收購不夠了解的話 你要怎麼調整呢 你要怎麼理解說 農民對於公糧收購價錢提高的期待呢"},{"start":9735.968,"end":9737.549,"text":"工糧收購分為幾種?計劃輔導餘糧然後以去年為例收購的數量每公頃多少?價格多少?我想去年的工糧的收購是28.7萬公頃"},{"start":9764.417,"end":9773.631,"text":"那我現在想要知道的是說過去在2019年陳吉仲他曾經提起說要增加餘糧收購的這個數量"},{"start":9778.563,"end":9784.006,"text":"這個部分那時候你們的新聞稿說擴大公糧收購是支撐糧價帶動2000億的社會效益那因為民間糧商收購價格會以公糧收購價格為基準那所以呢"},{"start":9796.415,"end":9803.801,"text":"有益於讓農民的收入增高那本席也想問你啊現在有網軍側議說提高公糧收購的價格是圖利中間商我想請問一下部長這是怎麼一個圖利方式"},{"start":9811.164,"end":9836.097,"text":"我想跟委員說明如果說我們要去保障或是提高稻農的收入要看整個稻谷的買賣我想要問你提高工糧收購的價格是圖利中間商嗎?是嗎?我沒有看到那個新聞就是說他新聞的內容是怎麼寫我不是很清楚提高工糧收購本身它是可能的政策之一"},{"start":9838.498,"end":9842.86,"text":"那你覺得公糧收購制度是不是有圖利中間商我想這是兩碼子的事因為他已經實行50年了假設他是圖利中間商的話就是說我們政府已經圖利中間商50年了嗎"},{"start":9858.021,"end":9867.368,"text":"所以我剛才說公糧收購是當年度為了保障因為稻米是我們的糧食安全組必須要的所以我只想問你這個網軍側翼說提高公糧收購就是在圖利中間商不是在照顧農民這個你同意嗎?你有打算要照顧農民嗎?"},{"start":9880.373,"end":9901.017,"text":"我當然以我們農業部的立場我們一定是照顧農民的啊是啊 所以請本席在這裡特別要求部長能夠提高公糧收購的價格今天我們經濟委員會做出的提案是提高12塊那本席也有一個提案是提高10塊那不管是10塊、12塊希望部長都可以重視公糧收購價格提高就是在落實照顧農民而不是在圖利中間商我覺得"},{"start":9910.459,"end":9921.869,"text":"非常的可惡就是說不了解農業的內容不了解農民的需要就是一味的在打擊說這個公糧收購價格這個公糧收購制度對於農民是沒有幫助的這個完全沒辦法接受所以部長今天本席在這裡為什麼問你說這個制度是圖利中間商嗎我相信你應該也是不贊成這個說法的吧"},{"start":9938.795,"end":9955.294,"text":"我想公糧收購有它的歷史那我再問一下說那如果假設2019年陳吉仲主委他還是在圖利中間商嗎2019那年比較相對特殊因為那年的產量特別高所以我就問你啊他是在圖利中間商嗎"},{"start":9958.345,"end":9959.166,"text":"我剛才已經說過了公糧收購跟這個意思我剛才已經說過了公糧收購跟這個意思"},{"start":9980.14,"end":9980.78,"text":"好 謝謝我們休息5分鐘"},{"start":10165.145,"end":10165.623,"text":"﹗"},{"start":10457.694,"end":10474.419,"text":"好,我們繼續開會請邱志偉委員請做詢答而且主席有請農業部陳部長我們再請陳部長另外一個是張署長張署長"},{"start":10484.264,"end":10497.396,"text":"部長,我們就是針對這個去年度我們通過這個議後特別條例各部會都有這個議後特別條例相關的預算編列農委會整個議後條例是3800億的預算規模農委會分到多少預算?"},{"start":10505.509,"end":10510.493,"text":"268號,去年度執行狀況大概有8項,包括水資源儲存、農田水利建設等等、任性漁港建設、農村送滿方案"},{"start":10523.013,"end":10546.93,"text":"這些去年執行了多少經費?因為這個大概是3年度嘛,到115年嘛。我們漁港的經費大概是3年是19億啦,然後在今年度我們會編列大概10億左右。變成10億,我希望齁,這個我的選區你也知道,你也很熟,那張叔也知道齁,這個包括從紫光到彌陀、永安到這個協定。"},{"start":10548.567,"end":10565.744,"text":"那我們這個把這個彌陀漁港打造成全國這個前三大的魅力漁港那漁港的設施也改善我希望下一波針對永安的部分你們能夠用這筆預算來支持另外一樣協定那些碼頭的設施改善"},{"start":10566.224,"end":10567.084,"text":"．4月6日及7日三天一次會議"},{"start":10585.112,"end":10602.388,"text":"這四個漁港你都很熟嘛,我也跟你去過大概十來次了,四個漁船都扮演這個非常重要的養殖業或者是沿海漁撈所以漁港的設施非常重要,我拜託是不是能夠善用這筆預算把這四個漁港的建設能夠提升"},{"start":10607.593,"end":10621.141,"text":"市長,謝謝委員的關心。確實如您所說的,我經常陪委員到地方去了解實際的情景。這四個漁港確實是非常的重要,尤其在高雄的沿近海地區。這四個漁港我們大概就會全力來投入,包括"},{"start":10623.102,"end":10629.944,"text":"米妥包括指官,然後包括永安,甚至包括新大陸,我們大概會投入我來拜託這個署長是不是利用週末時間你下降一下去跟這四個區的漁會他們山巨頭或者漁會的代表做一個座談怎麼樣這個針對這個漁業政策或者漁民權益或者漁港建設做一個座談會,可以嗎?"},{"start":10649.129,"end":10654.231,"text":"沒有問題,然後委員會跟委員辦公室那邊來聯繫這個會麻煩你,同樣是農會的部分選區有8區,有8個區的農會現在沒有副部長是不是哪一位可以指派一個同仁所以相關的我們主管到我選區包括鹿竹、橋頭、湖內、鋼山農會還有4個沿海區的農會"},{"start":10676.498,"end":10696.844,"text":"這八卷農會做一個對農業政策以及對這個農民權益相關的座談會這可以嗎?這可以嗎?我想我會請那個佛老師這邊因為我們進級就會跟農業會這邊還有跟漁業署一起那當然我一定參加我會來招集協助招集那我請相關的部會相關的這個農業部的相關的局處來一起來參加我們做一個盤點"},{"start":10702.666,"end":10729.086,"text":"另外就是你編268億這個去年度的執行狀況以及今年度的這個預算編列情形是不是可以提供一下資料給我好我想我們會後會提供那我想要跟委員說明的就是說因為議後特別預算只有到明年就結束了所以一定要齁那個工程包括您剛才講的這些漁港的這些工程齁如果它能夠完工一定我們一定會盡量第一優先支持因為牽涉到一些相關的工程的經費還有它的進度的問題"},{"start":10730.347,"end":10756.601,"text":"好,這部分我希望說你們能夠有個詳細的計畫跟這個相關的期程我們再提供給委員這268應該善用而且今年是102億另外這個所謂農業部我們在經濟部最近在針對這個電價在做調整的過程中農業部好像沒有這個相關的代表在裡面在這個電價審議委員會"},{"start":10759.108,"end":10787.631,"text":"是,我想我們目前就是我們透過另外的平台機制去瞭解整個電價的一個可能的調整你不用去透過其他機制你應該有一個農業部的代表去加入再進入這個審議委員會這個設置要點等那個經濟部來做這個施政報告的時候我再做一個提案這個設置是15到17人由經濟部長聘請相關的這個機關代表"},{"start":10788.471,"end":10798.801,"text":"我看了一下竟然沒有這個農業部的代表這個你們要主動去爭取我想我再跟經濟部部長協調一下我也會要求部長或者是院長一定要有農業部的代表否則你沒辦法為這個農業或者漁業的這個用電戶來發聲嘛這樣對他們是比較弱勢的"},{"start":10812.695,"end":10817.499,"text":"所以過去不論從2023的3月我們也維持農業的這個動漲對不對對2023的9月也是一樣維持店家不調整動漲對不對是那現在馬上又來了"},{"start":10827.014,"end":10850.13,"text":"我很擔心說這一次你們沒有代表在裡面,會不會把我們這個農業的這個電價做一些調整?雖然說我目前並沒有在那個委會裡面,但是我們也透過管道去表達我們農業部﹖你沒有安裝就對了是吧?不是安裝,我們是另外一個洗澡機制,我們也表達農業部本身對農業用電本身,我們希望說它能夠維持動長"},{"start":10851.718,"end":10873.751,"text":"好 這個問題你已經有表達了那長久之際一定要有農業部的代表這我會協助你們爭取那你要跟這個院長表示的確有這個需求那另外農會的水產加工廠試用農業動力用電優惠的這個修法的進度現在目前怎麼樣這個修法我這個已經協調過好幾次"},{"start":10875.652,"end":10885.07,"text":"那目前最新進度如何呢?我想這個部分我們能夠持續我們現在針對農業動力用電的一個標準裡面那個修正草案裡面現在已經"},{"start":10886.243,"end":10909.173,"text":"已經在行政院那邊希望說透過跨部會部分然後看看可不可以有一個比較好的一個方案出來現在還在研議我去年3月就請農業部來檢討修法您把草案送行政院那行政院也叫你們在做確保秘書長也有召開會議的對 那目前你們在補充的資料送到這個行政院了沒"},{"start":10910.305,"end":10918.371,"text":"我希望能夠盡快的定案這個所謂的漁會的水管交通廠這個適用的東西優惠的辦法一定要趕快出爐定案這樣子對漁會的運作才能讓他們能夠安心另外這個"},{"start":10935.367,"end":10943.811,"text":"親熱碼頭你去過嗎?去過親熱碼頭最近有去過嗎?大概2個月前吧阿你覺得狀況怎麼樣?還是有點亂不是有點亂 經濟秘的阿我每天都在那裡玩曾經有一段是有風華 有一段是還在那邊辦國慶煙火 對不對吸引很多人潮 這個過去的願景是說北部有這個親熱碼頭 南部有親熱碼頭"},{"start":10965.632,"end":10983.237,"text":"那我現在看到這個整個旗艦碼頭當然市政府、漁業局、海洋局也扮演的一定的角色在做規劃但是很多地是屬於漁業署跟國產署的地你說整體做一個休閒遊棄的規劃我覺得應該是由你們來這個做一個統籌的單位來協調國產署來協調這個海洋局因為大部分地是屬於漁業署的地嘛"},{"start":10994.126,"end":11020.408,"text":"現在我基本上大部分的過去所蓋的這些設施或者這個建物基本上都閒置不只閒置 有點荒廢那以前的一些木棧道這些基礎設施也都年久失修了 阿那什麼東西他可以看到很多很漂亮的西洋美景 也有很多海岸風光過去的設施都沒有維護 這個建築物也沒有繼續使用"},{"start":11021.933,"end":11048.134,"text":"你們願意看到這個狀況繼續衰敗下去嗎?我想以農業部的立場來講其實漁港本身是農村的一個生活的中心休閒漁港本身或休閒區本身是應該是要有一個整體的規劃那過去因為地的關係上面的這些建築可能是由不同部會或者去處理的部分所以我想後續我想我會再跟漁業組針對這個部分我們開一個交通會議看看怎麼樣去做整體的一個處理"},{"start":11051.576,"end":11076.388,"text":"時間關係因為已經響鈴了作為質詢要尊重行政部門一定要行政跟立法是平行的絕對不是上對下的我不能說我要講多久就講多久做資深議員資深的國務院要做之前的國務院的表率所以我質詢到此剩下資料"},{"start":11078.564,"end":11079.064,"text":"接下來我們請鄭政權委員請做詢答 謝謝"},{"start":11113.682,"end":11136.774,"text":"主席好,我想請一下代理部長好,我們再請陳部長陳代理部長好,我首先想問一下這是我第一次在經濟委員會的一個這樣的質詢我想說首先先問一個有關於外展的要點相關的問題"},{"start":11138.215,"end":11154.475,"text":"我看農業部這邊的資料目前台灣農業常態缺工大概有1.2萬人那季節性臨時缺工有20.1萬人目前的時候我們要補這樣子的一個勞動力不足的情況的時候"},{"start":11155.736,"end":11183.699,"text":"透過移工這邊來做一個補充那我們目前整個開放名額在整個自聘的部分有9000人那外展農務的部分有3000人那核定出來的狀態就是在整個自聘的部分不到5000那麼外展農務的部分2600人那實際的狀態又更低實際的狀態又更低所以我們整個看起來的情況就是說整個在農業這個部分能力不足的情況其實是非常明顯的"},{"start":11184.38,"end":11184.88,"text":"目前整個那個"},{"start":11204.097,"end":11218.606,"text":"我看到那個移民署最新的一個數字大概2月20號的一個統計數字就是我們目前失聯一共有85,947人那可能有相當大的一個量可能都在農業相關的一個"},{"start":11219.947,"end":11220.147,"text":"外展農務機構"},{"start":11237.12,"end":11248.206,"text":"農民團體、漁民團體、一些協會就是一些非營利組織可是問題是他們我剛給看的數字說事實上我們整個外展農務這邊開放出來的名額跟實際"},{"start":11251.195,"end":11252.215,"text":"：立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會．"},{"start":11281.604,"end":11298.804,"text":"基本上農業部的立場還是希望因為我們農業部本身的整個的一個網絡的關係還是以農會跟一些比較大小的合作社長為主那一般的就業服務中心他純粹只是幫你幫你仲介他對於農業不了解的時候他後續可能對於"},{"start":11301.03,"end":11324.005,"text":"因為外等是調度服務所以說目前的狀態就是農會跟漁會因為他們本身對這部分的專業不是不足夠的專業所以他們在處理這部分其實也沒有辦法真正的滿足所以我剛剛為什麼提到一個將近8萬6千個一個失業移工的一個狀態目前一個相關單位他們的一個說法是因為目前這個部分的失業移工很多都在農業部門裡頭"},{"start":11326.286,"end":11353.399,"text":"農業部門裡頭所以事實上他們也擔心處理這個部分的時候會影響到整個農業部門的一個發展所以他們對這部分其實相對保留的所以本席這邊先提出這個問題就對於農業部是不是可以開放救福機構來進行就是外展農務的一個相關業務請回去再做一個探討再跟本席辦公室這邊來做一個討論另外一個部分就是因為現在的一個移工他們有"},{"start":11354.58,"end":11383.051,"text":"要滿足就是牢機法的問題可是農業的一個性質它有非常大的特殊性農盲跟農閒的部分差距非常的大所以說他們這個部分是不是有可能就是突破牢機法的限制這是第一個第二個部分的時候就是說這些外展的農務的移工的時候他們有沒有可能在農閒的時候有可能去跨行業的去支援其他產業"},{"start":11385.336,"end":11385.356,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":11404.056,"end":11430.482,"text":"包括其他行業、農、就是上次的時候過來因為你知道所以本席覺得說因為這是目前很具體碰到的問題我希望你做一個跨部會的溝通之後再跟本辦做一個很詳細的溝通或者是我們同時來做一個協調會來看怎麼樣突破這個問題好不好然後接下來本席要問一個狀態就是說因為之前本席在上一屆當中的時候曾經提過有關於那個學校衛生法的一個修法"},{"start":11431.982,"end":11449.268,"text":"當時教育部這邊對於本席提到說應該要在校園當中禁用以行獸體數的相關的一個涉及的產品的時候呢那麼教育部他們當時提出來的理由是說因為農業部這邊有三張EQ他們用這個部分來"},{"start":11456.243,"end":11473.831,"text":"主旨了我們當時希望能夠修改學校衛生法的部分可是去年又發生了很多混珠的事件而且也被確定是確實有這個狀態所以本席想要問的情況是說對於這樣子三張EQ的部分我們如何去落實"},{"start":11475.131,"end":11500.84,"text":"中間發生混珠的狀態那麼在消費者或者學校這邊他們要如何去確定他們用到的狀態是符合三臟EQ安全的部分我跟委員說明一下我們農業部推動的三臟EQ包括農林輿序的產品最重要的就是它能夠有做回溯的這樣的一個機制所以你如果說是符合三臟EQ的部分它一定是確保是由國產的"},{"start":11502.36,"end":11530.169,"text":"這個部分 理解喔 這個部分都沒有問題喔可是我的問題其實是說 你回到我們的網頁 這個部分是我們的溯源編號 裡面這個部分它的溯源編號這是我們自己去用的一個部分 那我想問的一個情況是說 如果是供應商 肉品供應商他如果在這裡面 他找到一個溯源編碼的時候 他自己去做 而非真實的一個狀態 我們如何去查核"},{"start":11531.045,"end":11553.661,"text":"我想整個的溯源碼你如果經過掃描以後它如果是偽造的話馬上後台的資料帶不出來第二個部分是我們跟學校有一個營養午餐的平台所以學校的這些營養午餐的平台本身的營養是在開的或者是進到學校的營養午餐的部分的所有的聖誕EQ我們都會協助做對接去做一個查核"},{"start":11554.841,"end":11556.163,"text":"稍後再到本辦公室做一個說明"},{"start":11571.861,"end":11598.396,"text":"去年的時候缺彈非常的嚴重今年還缺不缺彈以今年來看因為我們在去年因為彈的比較急迫需要從國外進口的時候我們也同步針對國內的復養啟動了從除機、總機、彈中機到戰機的整個復養所以今年來看整個復養的情況還不錯有新的這些老母機已經淘汰變成新的一些彈機生產目前本身"},{"start":11599.136,"end":11620.44,"text":"大概2414萬顆每一天大概是這樣子所以它本身的蛋的缺乏是我想以目前國產蛋是充足的那我們目前大概還有多少的一個國外的一個供應合約蛋的供應合約目前還在有效期間的我們現在的供應合約都已經終止了都已經終止了"},{"start":11624.113,"end":11641.984,"text":"沒有還持續在有效的合約當中的嗎?沒有我們本來的合約是到5月底後來我們都已經因為我們當初的合約有三家是長約的部分然後長約的部分有的已經結束了然後最後一個澳洲的部分我們現在目前因為我們在合約的規範裡面是說"},{"start":11645.147,"end":11659.72,"text":"當我們農業部有需要的話才會啟動而不是定期的大概是這個方式所以合約還在嘛對不對只是你們現在沒有去要求他這邊提供嘛對不對所以這就基本上合約還在對就是"},{"start":11660.18,"end":11676.285,"text":"澳洲的部分合理還在是中間的中止的狀態而不是最終結束的狀態那針對這部分本席也需要再進一步了解那麼最後一個部分我看到因為現在整個碳的問題其實大家都非常的重視"},{"start":11677.845,"end":11696.856,"text":"那麼我看到就是2023我們就是台灣的最新的溫室氣體排放清澈裡面跟農業部這邊有關的糧食系統的一個碳排放的一個部分只有記錄了畜牧業、作物生產兩個部分對於其他的部分都沒有記錄,是這樣子嗎?我要問的狀態是漁業有沒有包含進來?"},{"start":11705.573,"end":11721.979,"text":"因為現在目前好像沒有嘛 對不對整個生產過程當中加工包裝運輸都沒有包含進來所以本席對於這個部分覺得農業部對於整個碳盤差是不夠的只做一半半套的一個狀態所以本席希望農業部對於碳盤差的狀態能夠更"},{"start":11725.98,"end":11753.872,"text":"像英國他們就是從生產到餐桌整個供應鏈都算在碳盤查的裡面臺灣目前沒有那麼我希望之後你們到本辦公室來進一步說明農業部如何進行碳盤查的事情我稍微簡單的說明我們現在的碳盤查整個碳的這些排放的話還是根據國際的IPC的相關的規範在做那整個碳盤查也是從生產端到消費端的部分所以它本身會看到它的"},{"start":11754.172,"end":11777.912,"text":"我們農業的供應端就沒有啊中間的加工包裝運送都沒有包含在這裡頭啊還是我們這個溫室氣體的這個資料不完整因為溫室氣體有兩部分一部分是綠色所得障另外一個我們在碳的足跡追動的話從生產到加工到運輸都會把它放進去這個部分我們正在進行OK你們接下來再到本辦公室做進一步的說明好不好好謝謝"},{"start":11786.052,"end":11786.612,"text":"陳.首先有請農業部陳部長"},{"start":11813.656,"end":11834.085,"text":"委員長陳部長現在是看守內閣啊你什麼時候會增持還是等著新的時候要來當農業部長告訴我一下我從來沒有想過這個問題不是我問你不是你從來有沒有講你也不敢亂講對不對你新有已經有陳武在了大概沒有問題對不對"},{"start":11835.734,"end":11859.429,"text":"完全沒有概念完全沒有概念好,為官之道就像你這樣不講但是心中自有打算我今天第一個問題要來請教你我要拜託陳部長就是有關於苗栗的漁業建設那首先就是關於龍鳳漁港直銷中心的改建"},{"start":11860.68,"end":11880.953,"text":"那當時你們的大臣部長陳其中他說原則同意非常贊同我的計畫還有你們記得陳次長管理人員也一道氣了那現在他已經離開了我現在只有從大臣轉到小臣的身上我這個三月頂"},{"start":11882.267,"end":11900.974,"text":"我們農業縣政府要提出一個這個成果報告我希望你能全力的支持像以前的陳其中部長一樣我們張司長都記得很清楚當知事有答應了不要他人走了你把他的話忘了你們不夠朋友不夠意氣喔"},{"start":11902.888,"end":11907.029,"text":"我們農業部還在為支持,等地方政府那個規範送上來的時候已經送上了,這裡面那個漁獲中心2.9億,周邊漁業改善4.6億,一共才7.5億,這7.5億在你們不算大"},{"start":11920.473,"end":11944.729,"text":"你看啊,那個高雄的前鎮的漁港花了多少錢?蘭花澳的漁港花了多少錢?無稽漁港花了多少錢?我那個地方非常特殊只有你這個陳部長還沒有下去張司長去了好幾次,我邀你去參觀一下,瞭解一下體制這個政法是具體可行而且是有效果的"},{"start":11945.329,"end":11973.726,"text":"我跟委員說明喔,就是我們這裡漁港的建設大概因為漁港有分一類漁港二類漁港那整個漁港大概有220個港口嘛那九個一類漁港,那一類漁港的部分特別是您剛剛提到前陣齁因為它是整個遠洋漁港的一個母基地它的功能跟性質是不一樣的所以我說我們會支持然後看看他所提的規則我跟你講他發揮的效益會很大我從來不亂做事情好不好拜託"},{"start":11974.766,"end":11997.046,"text":"不然等一下邱志文說我話講得很長啊再來我推了八年的厚農雜糧專區已經討論了八年已經通過國會審議但是最後被行政院退回我覺得行政院退回的話對我們地方農民的傷害很大"},{"start":11998.069,"end":12005.729,"text":"那這咱倆專機8年來我經過部長、農業部長、林業部長、地方共同討論大家都跟我講沒有問題"},{"start":12007.279,"end":12035.296,"text":"結果上次審查只有臺南的民主專區過他說陳昌明選立法委員的時候競爭的很激烈藍部可以過苗栗不能過我感覺這就不對了我跟委員說明我們在針對這些產業專區本身特別是由保安理解變的部分絕對不會因為委員個人的當然你是這麼講但是感受不一樣你們當初說陳昌明信誓旦旦突然就跟我改變了"},{"start":12036.256,"end":12061.238,"text":"我最先你說的是官方的話我們心中只有我混到背泥捏蔡英文當總統到她要卸任的時候都沒有完成這個效力我要怎麼來講所以剛剛執事委員他說啊他是在野黨他富豪他是執政黨我是在野黨當然我要多講一些啊應該有的到最後都變沒有啊"},{"start":12062.864,"end":12079.211,"text":"南部的那個部分大概他也大概來來回回大概10多年了他講經濟效益沒有其實你們不了解沒有期間我們白沙屯的鳳天宮啊白沙屯罵幾年500萬的金箱客他到這邊只有不到1公里"},{"start":12080.251,"end":12107.471,"text":"還有好望角觀光風景期也全部在推了將來的效益很大還有你那個保安你不可能給你恢復什麼經濟效益你保安你幾百年來就是這樣子還要恢復種林業吉長在那比較不好意思真的種的不怎麼那個活的好天天農民都來跟我吵架所以部長十一下例我農黨會推出來好不好"},{"start":12108.484,"end":12134.716,"text":"我想還是再跟委員說明一下當我們的保安林解編以後變成產業專區我們一個非常重要的前提這個產業專區本身它的必要性那相關的現在的產業專區的必要性跟它的面積其實它佔國內的那個雜糧的比例非常低那保安林還是有保安林存在的必要性所以我們會協助就是說那個地方佔的很小不會啦 幾百人就這樣存在的你這個政府剛剛"},{"start":12138.499,"end":12151.158,"text":"我拉幾百年就這樣,你要去恢復也難恢復啊,還要種樹木也種不起來啊,不是我跟您講的,去地方了解一下好不好,我要請那些評審委員下來了解一下。"},{"start":12153.442,"end":12157.284,"text":"陳部長,我瞭解你背景。你從農業試驗所一直過來了。怎麼那麼快?"},{"start":12180.31,"end":12190.663,"text":"沒有關係 出資委我尊重他的說法因為他執政黨 我在野黨 我要多講一些啊 不然我選舉被欺負得很慘你這裡面"},{"start":12193.515,"end":12221.138,"text":"裏面有談到一個抗逆境作物示範期你又特別專長我看了除了穩固往事的內容但是這裏面你說開挖調試的機制有93項一層抗耐逆境作物有87種我不看了你拿這87種做抗耐逆境作物因為我這很重視"},{"start":12222.279,"end":12237.412,"text":"因為我從偶然一個資料讀到公園院的資料那在苗栗我要求栽種烏角綠栗子省的來栽培現在青龍有種起來他說種的跟義姑的一樣"},{"start":12238.957,"end":12263.722,"text":"大概3年才能收成那要試驗它的甜度因為那個植子跟那個植繩的種起來如果海邊能種起來那是整個改變海邊你只能種木馬黃的現象我很重視這個所以這個在這邊啦你要特別的關注一下但是我看你們好像沒東西"},{"start":12265.463,"end":12276.988,"text":"我跟委員說明,我也是來自試驗單位,我也非常了解我們國內的試驗單位本身的育種能力,而且他們也的確育出不同的耐逆境的品種,特別在海邊的話可能要耐鹽,還有耐風"},{"start":12284.292,"end":12284.672,"text":"那這是小潛颱風的時候"},{"start":12309.292,"end":12334.983,"text":"我發覺一個問題本來可以高票當選結果發覺哇這個政府你們農業部把我搞得慘兮兮頭非常痛我們縣裡地區叫做苗栗的農場他那邊的農民他那邊種的稻田每年的時候是苗栗縣排名第一他的隔壁是大安津這次小前颱風來的時候"},{"start":12339.021,"end":12348.007,"text":"那個叫大安區好像是大安隔壁那個叫什麼區我們那個厚隆同一個地區大安區有賠償"},{"start":12358.396,"end":12381.642,"text":"有農業保險的一個賠償,隔壁的縣里沒有賠償同樣的一個地區,縣里是苗栗的農場結果他說因為以前在報的時候,產量的時候縣里報的太低,大安區報的太高但是我相信我們縣里的時候比大安區還要好"},{"start":12382.662,"end":12400.351,"text":"他都是行的,他那些農民不怎麼努力等著土地長,我們這邊是比較農業縣市的,我們院裡的農民種的稻真的是很好,也算苗栗縣最高的一個地,這邊有補償,這邊保險沒有補償,又是那個老問題。"},{"start":12404.634,"end":12421.753,"text":"聽說有一個立法委員去選了,你們執政黨的,所以農業保險有補償。我的縣裡第7一會我再選,我算比較直角,結果沒有通過。我現在對一個問題最好瞭解。"},{"start":12425.001,"end":12447.583,"text":"鄉鎮公所報的地方到底那個標準不標準我一直要求你們改善每一個地區因為鄉鎮公所有牡蠣跟沒有牡蠣的所以它五年的那個稻穀的產量報出來有的先是隨便亂報我這又問了情形我希望你從中心評估一下"},{"start":12449.127,"end":12451.73,"text":"農業保險本身,我們是根據我們的一個平割或全割的產量跟過去5年相比"},{"start":12469.673,"end":12493.891,"text":"那5年的資料是農業統計聯報的他是唯一公開的一個資訊啊誰替你報的然後我們本身吼像以院理來講吼雖然他的農業保險領不到但是天然災害救助他有領到天然災害只有一部分的啦他是全箱補償而且我們的取樣點不不不那個部長我安若跟你強調天然災害是我去處理我答應下來我講話算話"},{"start":12495.572,"end":12521.779,"text":"你們一直講農業的保險很困難好有災害那大安區沒有災害全鄉補償啊所以那個彥旅鎮的農民都在煩惱說我不夠力我怎麼樣啊報告委員部就算天然災害開了他20%也是鄉公所要去現勘的不是說免現勘啊對啦所以實際有損失的我想整個天然災害就會到位大安區有全鄉損失彥旅鎮就沒有全鄉損失在隔壁捏"},{"start":12522.892,"end":12549.804,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12553.001,"end":12553.021,"text":"請陳部長"},{"start":12576.445,"end":12603.764,"text":"市長我想先請教一下這個豬肉的問題因為從2月2日臺中市的衛生單位發布這個臺糖的豬肉有瘦肉精之後那經過現在大概經過一個多月了那我想問一下現在就農業的最高主管機關角度臺灣的豬肉現在是不是安全的我想我先回答結論臺灣的豬肉是絕對百分之百安全而且沒有用乙型受體素"},{"start":12604.434,"end":12611.858,"text":"那在2月2日案件發生臺東市檢測案件出來的時候其實我們比大家更緊張因為我們是負責整個產業的的一個豬所以我們馬上針對上市前的養豬場"},{"start":12620.014,"end":12620.394,"text":"我講專家會議最後"},{"start":12639.497,"end":12669.497,"text":"議員．"},{"start":12671.219,"end":12690.518,"text":"認為到目前的所有的資料沒有證據去顯示我們的臺灣的豬場是有飼養就是有用這個已經受理數當作添加物部長那這樣子到底這事情是怎麼發生的就專家們的看法我想前市場的部分大概專家的一致認為就是從檢測的結果來看是"},{"start":12692.5,"end":12692.78,"text":"這個禮拜應該會出來"},{"start":12720.765,"end":12743.878,"text":"我瞭解是3月初大 本來說3月初嘛今天已經3月初了實案辦應該會做一些 我跟你說這個事情其實是當然我們經過這樣檢測當然大家對於台灣的豬肉是有信心的啦也都沒有問題的但是總是有一個更確切的出來之後總是一個更科學更用專家的一個調查出來的結果讓國人更加的放心那也同時也瞭解為什麼這事情會這樣子發生啦我們需要確保"},{"start":12745.919,"end":12761.284,"text":"台灣的豬肉也確保未來台灣大家食安上的一個安全是大家更有信心的我想食安辦最後會中整兩個部會本身的那我再問一下部長就這件事情這樣的發生有沒有什麼樣的一些標準作業程序上面是出了一些問題可以更加改進的"},{"start":12761.824,"end":12786.235,"text":"我想在整個的我們農業部負責的這個就是市場上市前的這些部分應該我們的農民因為現在的租價也還不錯的價格他沒有任何理由因為乙型受體素也是禁用的沒有任何理由去使用這個乙型受體素這是第一個部分那至於後市場的檢驗的部分那其實很多檢驗的部分以農業部來講我們做檢驗的時候通常都會"},{"start":12787.045,"end":12815.959,"text":"多抽取幾件做備份萬一檢測的時候會有一些可能的誤差的時候還可以啟動另外我舉例好了啦如果現在是由農業部去查到這樣的狀況下的時候那你們會不會更謹慎來做一個這樣我想以農業部的的檢測的一個流程裡面來講我們會分兩個部分就是當他的數值比較接近於檢測極限的時候很接近的時候對然後他的本身的檢測的那個那個"},{"start":12818.898,"end":12842.965,"text":"我們就會更謹慎的去拿另外一個備份的樣品去重新做檢測然後檢測出來如果結果一致性的時候才會去做後續的處理我希望這些東西都在未來我們都希望這樣的事情應該去那個就是說我也希望除了衛生單位的一些經驗我也希望農業單位因為你們是豬的這個主管最高主管豬農的權益都在你們的手上"},{"start":12843.345,"end":12860.919,"text":"我也希望你們能夠適度的表達一些意見給所有的各政府單位在這件事情上面能夠更加謹慎的想因為就我們的常理的判斷台糖它是國營事業基本上沒有去造假的利益的空間更何況這個東西它沒有實際成本上面沒有就是你看不到它的動機"},{"start":12861.94,"end":12874.827,"text":"所以沒有動機狀況下 如果當發生事情的時候 恐怕必須要再三去推究他為什麼會發生這樣的狀況 這樣恐怕比較不會產生現在發生的事件是台糖 若是一般的豬農的話 這個豬農恐怕承受不了這一個月這樣的處理"},{"start":12876.687,"end":12897.182,"text":"所以我說這段時間豬價都很不錯但是我也認為也因為發生這個事件之後我相信國人在使用豬肉產品的時候一定受到很大的一個影響一定有受到影響因為他相對比較沒有信心嘛所以我希望這件事情未來應該成為我們不怪任何人也不不奇怪但是我認為這應該形成政府的一個標準的一個程序應該要更謹慎去防止"},{"start":12897.982,"end":12921.851,"text":"這樣的事件的再次的一個發生就一旦如果有的時候至少讓所有的各體系的人更謹慎去處理的事情這樣比較避免這後面還有問題的因為台糖後面還會造成他的他包含他的信譽的損失包含甚至他這段時間整個損失的部分還有相關的球場問題所以我認為這個部分如果可以經過這樣的經驗大家有更好的一個程序的話可以減少這事件發生未來發生的機會"},{"start":12923.111,"end":12943.957,"text":"我想我們在跨部會在工作會議在討論的時候我們也提出了非常多的這些檢測的標準的作業流程有沒有什麼樣可以改進的空間這個部分我想我們都有相關的這些討論我也希望農業部要表達意見因為這個台農台糖也是豬農萬一這是其他一般的豬農的話那恐怕大概是倒定了"},{"start":12944.677,"end":12962.45,"text":"對阿他後面的球場恐怕先倒了在球場還不知道球場什麼時候所以我的意思說我認為這件事情應該農業部還是要有他的立場在我再舉個例子好了啦我自己其實本身我都會買台糖的豬肉你看這段時間到昨天到今天早上說台糖的梅花肉到現在是完全捕獲中捕獲中"},{"start":12963.763,"end":12964.203,"text":"您知道他申請了嗎?"},{"start":12994.071,"end":13007.06,"text":"我瞭解在上個禮拜齁他們有說他們會去申請我例如說一方面我希望這個調查呢盡快出來因為出來的時候大家更有信心另一方面如果對台糖的部分不要說是一般台糖就其他甚至豬農會遇到這樣狀況下我認為農業部都應該都應該更繼續如果確保他是安全的都應該給予協助他們盡快度過這個難關啦齁"},{"start":13015.046,"end":13029.439,"text":"因為他是台糖是國家的虧也是虧人民的那但我認為這事情應該還要有更積極的一些處理啦好不好我希望他們是安全的是那個話那就應該讓他們能夠能夠讓他們能夠順利的上架要不然這個損失會持續的擴大好不好"},{"start":13033.363,"end":13052.115,"text":"再我請教一下當然也要謝謝這個農業部來支持錢振宇港的我這要講的是這樣啦上半年前的時候我們錢振宇港幾乎是被抹了半年的時間啦那最後從一開始不管是從3000萬的簡單的整理的部分到後來我們爭取那還是我擔任的時候來爭取的10億的一個"},{"start":13056.578,"end":13079.049,"text":"到後來院長們也看到下水道50年沒做包括周邊的船員服務中心該做外勞來這邊外籍的漁工來這邊的時候被看到在路邊洗澡叫在洗澡然後這些都讓台灣的國際形象是不好那我們都知道一類漁港這是中央主管的漁港50年來沒做的事情我認為做這件事情都是應該的啦那我覺得這一段時間其實是被這樣的不斷的"},{"start":13080.45,"end":13107.01,"text":"攻擊跟抹黑這半年來我沒有看到任何人有去檢舉甚至去檢調去查甚至什麼都沒有罵完之後就跑跑了以後就沒事了我認為其實這國家的建設不應該是這樣的發展我也認為部長怎麼看待這整件事情我想當初前面漁港的一個擴建當然他有他的時間跟時間序那最後核定的其實當初的蘇院長他看到是一個整體的部分"},{"start":13107.65,"end":13125.343,"text":"他不是說看到該修一個東西就修一個所以整體的部分包括整個的漁市場包括那個這當然是不一樣的東西嘛你請原先只是做個簡單的整理的部分到後來你還加了很多加強包括你的下水道50年沒錯你做了下水道原先的3000萬沒有下水道嘛"},{"start":13125.643,"end":13142.351,"text":"就是很多該做的事情後來爭取到該做的時候建設本來就是該進行的你把那個東西去抹黑它去攻擊甚至是不是有歪戈是不是有貪汙這個都過頭了這半年來完全沒有任何一個案子去立案去調查連檢舉都沒有檢舉所以我意思說如果像這樣的事情有的話我還是希望未來農業部要更積極的去做澄清跟說明我也認為社會臺灣如果要進步不應該朝這個方向走"},{"start":13150.334,"end":13176.606,"text":"正正為了嘴巴如果都是這樣隨意亂講不負責任的講的話其實對所有認真做事的公務員都是不公平的我舉個例子像我們的下水道工程已經在今年的1月7日完工了那整個下水道工程完工以後對於整個區域的排水的部分對於漁港的水就會非常乾淨高雄市是直轄市啦高雄市只有這個地點是50年來還沒有做下水道的所以就是凸顯出本來就該進行的事情好不好我希望這個"},{"start":13177.766,"end":13197.418,"text":"最後一個問題我請教一下先乳的部分國內很多人很喜歡用新乳也喜歡鮮乳但是我們現在的鮮乳的部分當時有提到就是說國外的一些乳品進到台灣來我們先乳是10天國外的可能可以到90天那部長原先有講到一個月內會提出鮮乳跟非鮮乳的一些明確定義方案這個出來了嗎"},{"start":13198.519,"end":13223.124,"text":"我想我們已經跟我們的所謂的乳品業者相關的討論然後也初步有在規劃一些已經送到在應該在2月底應該3月底之前會送到送到行政院沒有送到衛生部那邊去討論那我要強調的是國外的殺菌的方法因為有低溫有高溫有超高溫的部分還有後續的包裝是不是在無菌的狀態之下"},{"start":13224.725,"end":13247.447,"text":"所以這個部分我們希望說用長效率的方式我只是希望適度的讓國人知道一方面也做一些區隔一方面也是讓國人知道說我們自己的產品其實是14天內的我跟委員報告其實以我們國內的技術我們要3個月也可以可是相對的就是說國人的購買的信息我們的需求不需要拉到那麼長不需要拉那麼高所以其實"},{"start":13248.288,"end":13249.189,"text":"接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做詢談"},{"start":13284.404,"end":13296.508,"text":"主席、在黨委員、先進、列席的政府機關組長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生。那麼有請陳部長和農糧署的蘇代理署長以及農經署的李署長。好,我們請三位。好,部長好、兩位署長好。今天我要談的呢,就是來談農業保養。保長啊,你對我們的農業保養你有滿意嗎?"},{"start":13313.239,"end":13339.564,"text":"我覺得在執行面我覺得還有很多改進的空間好 那我們看一下27種品項、43張保單有這幾種有氣象參數型的、政策連接型的、區域收穫型的、收入保障型的但是有一個叫做時損時賠型的要地面人員或空派去勘損後判斷損害多少才能理賠那農業保險的覆蓋率比2015年不到1%到現在8年後有超過一半你有滿意嗎你覺得好不好"},{"start":13343.325,"end":13360.594,"text":"部分的品項不滿意部分的品項不滿意好來我告訴你你看齁其實呢這個過半的在這27個品項當中呢只有什麼水稻、高粱、豬跟牛是相當高其他齁我們屏東的齁鳳梨、香蕉、木瓜、蔗、蓮霧、芭樂"},{"start":13365.382,"end":13373.239,"text":"三天都是個位數甚至不到1啦你覺得阿這樣的農業保險感覺上互靠率可能慘兮兮嘛為什麼"},{"start":13374.807,"end":13381.152,"text":"這幾個比較高的品項都是屬於正在行的一個保險比較低的部分事實上我覺得農民的危機意識還有就是保單的設計可能沒有辦法滿足農民的真正需求"},{"start":13397.463,"end":13421.998,"text":"第一就是農民的觀念,我經常跟我們的農友說,這次你去關於藉由藍車團隊保養,你高二三十高出去你當然希望你不要賠嘛,保平安嘛,你保這個農業在海保養,統合是沒賠啊,保有它收起但是我沒辦法像孫先生那樣統合嘛,他們很痛苦,但是另外的就是保證的設計在真正發生損害的時候,要求啊,明明有損害,都賠不中,這樣是完蛋嘛"},{"start":13423.499,"end":13439.394,"text":"我趕快幫你衝啊 是不是這樣子 是所以我們現在問題來了 好 我以鄉下保險為例這是一個實際的案例 它的耕地呢 是東西向的但是呢 用無人機齁 不然說是用無人機去推車 南北向飛啦 飛到那一地齁 剛好沒到啦 但是一堆窗齁"},{"start":13444.74,"end":13456.794,"text":"當西邊的這邊都到,你如果說是東西向的飛,就會看到他的耕地的損害狀況,全貌但是呢你這樣南北向飛,就沒看到啊,沒損害啊,你認為這樣會不會有爭議?"},{"start":13459.362,"end":13472.075,"text":"如果是這樣應該會有爭議好那為什麼保險公司會要這樣做因為保險公司考量成本我找他們來協商我跟保險公司說啊你的無人機你們就賣這麼久了欸他說委員啦無人機也很久了欸我如果說叫他每一間餐廳都賣到頭頭齁那稍後賣那麼久齁當然無人機公司都賣不了啦"},{"start":13480.684,"end":13495.061,"text":"欸 好像有道理但你們規定2019 2019年相應到植株保險示範期間每鄉鎮的航拍面積要大於頭髮面積10%現在到2020年要提高到30%他怎麼費不是每一個正經街道有保險嘛他就選擇有頭髮的欸用最小的"},{"start":13496.262,"end":13499.143,"text":"分區採樣使用無人機分區定損採樣採樣有科學根據啊我電話民調"},{"start":13519.574,"end":13540.028,"text":"一萬個票我抽一千個票我就知道要購買嘛我不用賣一萬個票在店內嘛但是這個科學根據在哪裡保險公司我們聽到什麼樣講保險公司去找無人機飛無人機飛什麼地方他說進行去要票要事先申請做得不錯我就專門挑什麼沒有進行的地方飛一飛這樣就好了有膏帶你說採樣啊這樣有符合你們的要求嗎"},{"start":13543.459,"end":13545.74,"text":"所以我希望你們這個科學根據隨機抽樣 你們要訂出一個規範 可以嗎?"},{"start":13545.74,"end":13548.322,"text":"比如說無人機公司說要配對就配 只要有問題就可以啊 這樣農民會不服嗎?我想未來我們的經濟 我們後續會跟我們的農經局這邊討論 飛行路徑的規劃非常重要對 這個符合科學的抽樣標準 可以嗎?對 這個可以 我們可以來改變"},{"start":13566.452,"end":13577.363,"text":"另外告訴你其實無人機是不便宜的但是過去我們怎麼樣來看呢?不是只有災後再來看平常農糧署、平常農業部就要透過什麼?透過你們的遙測機有飛機對不對?你們有飛機嘛還有什麼?衛達還有衛星還有合成孔徑、雷達"},{"start":13582.608,"end":13601.443,"text":"他從遙測的方式他是大面積的掃描平常就可以記錄作物的生長狀況有沒有有症沒有有結果沒有都看得出來災損的時候比較不會有爭議不然無人機飛過的地方沒有飛的地方他說有損害就滾滾的都倒還是沒收有爭議所以為了這個方式我們希望你們能夠擴大使用遙測機跟衛星拍照為了在自己的地方精進讓我們的大面積的掃描成為一個常態性的記錄可以嗎"},{"start":13611.087,"end":13611.267,"text":"比對一下"},{"start":13628.333,"end":13651.921,"text":"然後這樣子的話對於未來你有沒有種植對 這個至少可以馬上檢查就是在爭議的時候保險公司說 啊沒有檢查到你就沒有賺嘛 有賺沒賺農民啊除了拿他手機APP對不對 你們要有一個方法嘛我現在都跟農民說用手機拿一個銀座佐證嘛所以呢 未來需要一個什麼 需要一個整理一個調處機構因為有了這些資料之後呢 我們來看一下目前的規定呢 可以怎樣 農業漁會等等保險人的農業保險整理調處辦法"},{"start":13656.383,"end":13674.04,"text":"他有兩個,一個是跟農業會提出申訴另外一個去找金管會管的經銷法設置的爭議處理條組基礎我覺得如果是跟農業去申訴他們金融專業人員比較少,對保險的了解比較少那如果去找什麼,去找目前之前我們的那個不講了"},{"start":13675.481,"end":13675.621,"text":"你知道嗎?"},{"start":13692.117,"end":13692.618,"text":"提出書面報告,可以嗎?可以"},{"start":13721.04,"end":13728.967,"text":"另外,時損時負的農業保險抽樣一遭投保農民質疑．請農業部一個月內檢討空賣的抽樣方式．並修訂出程序規範．"},{"start":13752.739,"end":13753.48,"text":"謝謝主席,我請陳部長"},{"start":13779.517,"end":13794.553,"text":"拜託,在去年的時候我們對進口雞蛋討論的非常非常多那在去年在立法院也有很多委員在質詢包含院長還有包含我們當時農委會"},{"start":13796.775,"end":13808.594,"text":"就是有關進口雞蛋當時的說法是說會一直進口到今年的6月份那我想請問一下我們到現在還有在進口雞蛋嗎?"},{"start":13809.605,"end":13826.028,"text":"我想當初在訂的長約的部分因為它是屬於長約是到今年的6月但是我們在同時進口的同時我們也針對國內的富養提出了一個改善的方案以現在來講沒有進口現在沒有進口從11月多應該12月的的時候就沒有再進口了都完全是國內的雞蛋"},{"start":13835.431,"end":13852.436,"text":"從去年的11、12月之後在我們市面上包含業蛋的部分也都沒有進口雞蛋嗎?我們都沒有進口但是業者他可能有民間他有可能自己的需要而進口對對當然所以我意思說我們政府部門並沒有就完全沒有再進口雞蛋"},{"start":13854.176,"end":13866.847,"text":"那麼再請教但是問題是就是在去年因為我們有非常多的這個雞蛋根本沒進口雞蛋根本沒有辦法消化所以我們大概有5580萬顆的過期雞蛋我們最近才看到到現在還沒有銷毀到底為什麼會要拖這麼久的時間那我們也會擔心"},{"start":13881.06,"end":13888.353,"text":"這麼長期都沒有銷毀有沒有可能這些過期的雞蛋這中間會不會又重新的流入市面?"},{"start":13889.489,"end":13910.141,"text":"我跟委員報告就是有關於已經報廢掉廢棄的這些雞蛋的部分我們都有專案列管而且同時我們在那批雞蛋的進出的時候都有第三方因為現在都有封存的第三方會監督的直接進到我們的對位處理場所以我想民眾不用擔心這些雞蛋又會流到市場去"},{"start":13910.481,"end":13922.354,"text":"所以你在這邊可以保證 絕對保證 這個過期就當時我們說要銷毀的進口雞蛋 絕對沒有長期流入市面 絕對我可以保證 因為我們的進出都有 不管是殼蛋 或者是液蛋 對 好 那問題是現在銷毀了嗎 銷毀了5500 那個部分我們在去年已經 已經招標的部分"},{"start":13930.282,"end":13945.228,"text":"那現在遇到一個比較實務的問題就是因為雞蛋要去做堆肥本身各縣市政府要同意他在再利用的項目裡面要增加一項可以拿這些雞蛋那什麼時候可以銷毀到現在沒有銷毀"},{"start":13946.348,"end":13957.719,"text":"各個縣市齁總共有14家可以做協助做堆肥的現在有4家已經取得了其他的是在等縣市政府同意所以你現在到現在有5000超過5000萬顆雞蛋沒有銷毀那問題又變成是在縣市政府囉"},{"start":13963.024,"end":13973.372,"text":"不是,我不是說限制政府,因為照規定齁,這些...你可以先告訴我一個時間,什麼時間之前你一定要把它銷毀,你這次留在這邊幹什麼?我們的合約是120天之內,120天之內,但是它是以取得限制政府同意以後的120天,我們才會處理"},{"start":13983.22,"end":14007.585,"text":"所以你現在要推給縣市政府因為遲遲沒有同意所以你這120天從什麼時候開始計算都不知道請問一下我們這樣增長這些進口雞蛋五千多萬顆 這個流程有沒有問題阿我想跟委員說明喔第一個就是我們絕對不會把責任推到地方政府因為他是新的品牌你會不會流到應該都變成有小雞出來阿"},{"start":14008.729,"end":14008.909,"text":"你給我個時間好嗎?"},{"start":14028.187,"end":14046.862,"text":"我本來是期待就是說縣市政府現在已經有4家可以的話4家就可以開始啟動陸續啟動這樣的話不用等到14家全部通過啦這樣的話效率會比較快啦那我們期待就是說120天的話能夠如果說3月底之前完的話大概在5月底開始可以全部把它完成"},{"start":14047.202,"end":14057.891,"text":"我不曉得在台灣銷毀過期雞蛋還要這麼這麼長的時間,這個效率實在是非常非常的驚人啦,好謝謝"},{"start":14064.75,"end":14079.755,"text":"所以那個部長每一個委員都關心這個問題他不會變小青因為你每天在撩顛啦所以要加油好接下來我們請丁學中委員丁學中丁學中委員不在現場我們請"},{"start":14081.596,"end":14108.728,"text":"徐富奎委員、徐富奎委員、徐富奎委員不在現場我們請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在現場我們請莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄委員不在現場我們請賴世保委員、賴世保、賴世保委員不在現場我們請林思敏委員、林思敏委員、林思敏委員不在現場我們請馬文君委員、馬文君、馬文君委員不在現場我們請林佩祥委員、林佩祥、林佩祥委員不在現場"},{"start":14110.048,"end":14138,"text":"李燕秀委員李燕秀委員李燕秀委員不在現場林德福委員林德福林德福委員不在現場黃建豪委員黃建豪黃建豪委員不在現場王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員不在現場何新淳委員何新淳何新淳委員不在現場林俊憲委員林俊憲委員林俊憲委員不在現場麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員不在現場"},{"start":14139.06,"end":14140.662,"text":"委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員"},{"start":14162.78,"end":14188.02,"text":"備與委員、陳培宇委員不在現場請賴慧元委員、賴慧元委員、賴慧元委員不在現場登記發言委員除不在現場之外請以經與發言完畢、詢答結束我們有委員陳冠廷委員、徐富奎委員所提書面質詢列入記錄、刊登公報書面質詢及未答覆的部分請相關單位於一週之內"},{"start":14189.878,"end":14196.687,"text":"以書面答覆並複製本會．那麼本日所列議程處理完略．星期三繼續開會現在休息"},{"start":14225.298,"end":14226.04,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14286.548,"end":14286.568,"text":"議員委員會議員"}]}},{"id":"15685","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15685","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d471ce9aeb73a155c1e7e4de50953ef4d3be8d109af184be4af8659edfa30af965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-04","start_time":"2024-03-04T08:31:50+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-04T13:26:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":17650,"委員發言時間":"08:31:50 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﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":2292.013,"end":2297.676,"text":"﹚學生在救學貸款方面的壓力﹚推動義後救學貸款的補助﹚也能夠一次性的在這方面﹚能夠對於學生的負擔有所減輕﹚另外持續協助大專校院合併﹚以及提升教員人員待遇並完善教育人員權益的相關法令﹚那也從今年1月"},{"start":2313.524,"end":2328.111,"text":"對於大學校院我們學術研究費提升15%那這方面除了公立的學校對私立學校教育部也以7成的補助希望能夠也同時讓私立學校在這方面也照顧到我們私校的教職同仁"},{"start":2331.252,"end":2348.807,"text":"在數位科技的教育方面持續推動斑斑由網路深深用平板那麼已經構置了61萬台的學習載具也豐富有關數位教學及學習資源那麼透過教育的大數據的分析應用在學校教跟學的方面"},{"start":2349.407,"end":2367.157,"text":"以能夠加速達成數位科技輔助教育的目標此外在深耕大專校院前瞻科技及數位教育方面也暢通資通訊數位科技人才的培育並強化數位創新跟人才跨領域合作的能力那也培育資安實務的人才並強化國立大專校院"},{"start":2370.358,"end":2385.584,"text":"全校性的資安資訊安全這部分在第二期的高教生根計畫是列為專章也因為大學校園的資安在未來是一個很大的要去注意跟挑戰所以在這一次的部分也能夠同步的來做這樣的一個計畫的加入那對於國立高中以下也採取比較資通安全業務管理輔導團"},{"start":2394.788,"end":2399.735,"text":"並且重要的這些學習相關的資料庫也採取向上集中來做管理也能夠去強化我們3000多所高中以下學校在資安這方面能夠透過這樣的一個機制來提升資安環護的量能"},{"start":2412.751,"end":2433.073,"text":"在語言教育方面為推動國家語言整體發展方案在高中以下學校落實本土語言教育及辦理本土語言傳承工作此外也漸進推動高中以下學校雙語教育那麼藉由普及提升以及重點培育的這方面來規劃跟進行那這個整個政策的推動"},{"start":2434.309,"end":2451.63,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":2451.71,"end":2475.819,"text":"推動的策略跟目標來執行對於過度有一部分有整個偏頗的這種情形這方面教育部也會及時的來提醒跟要求縣市政府一定要兼顧到學生在語言學習以及在領域學習專業方面一定要能夠去顧及那麼在國際教育方面推動臺美教育倡議及促進國際生來臺及留臺實施的計畫"},{"start":2478.18,"end":2489.789,"text":"在今年1月29也簽署臺捷大學協助聯盟合作備忘錄促進國際人才交流的循環此外持續推動華語教育2025的中程計畫那麼向海外來輸出優質的華語教育那麼對於優華語計畫教育部也透過國內27所的學校跟歐美68所的大學已經建立校對校的這種華語教育的合作的機制那這方面"},{"start":2506.302,"end":2525.469,"text":"也確實更能夠深化穩定在我們對於海外華語教育的做法上大學會是一個非常好的據點那麼對於112年我們所合定85所大學也建立了國際化國際行政資源的系統那另外在112學年度已經有153所的中小學來跟國外的學校"},{"start":2535.855,"end":2552.927,"text":"在安心校園方面為營造性別友善環境性別平等教育法在112年8月16日公布實施那麼同年8月起各級學校級部署館堂關鎖我們來提供多元的生理用品此外在今年2月修正發布學校訂定教師輔導與管教辦法的注意事項"},{"start":2555.228,"end":2581.953,"text":"及制定校園安全檢查操作手冊．並持續推動反詐宣導．防治校園霸凌．預防學生毒品及藥物濫用．以及推動全民的原教．同時啟動學生輔導法的修法．健全校園三級輔導機制跟生命教育．為協助學生能夠覺察自己的心理狀況．及關注自身的情緒．在今年2月教育部也含送各大專校院．"},{"start":2582.493,"end":2592.977,"text":"有關大學校院身心調適假參考的指引那目前在高中的這部分高中子的這部分已經有40多所的學校會從今年的3月開始也試辦身心調適假那麼作為後續我們再收集學校執行的相關意見也希望能夠在今年的8月"},{"start":2602.72,"end":2606.945,"text":"在中生教育方面,為打造全民樂學風氣,112年舉辦了第一屆中生學習節,發布中生學習宣言,並首辦學習型程式認證,鼓勵及補助社區大學,設置樂齡學習中心高齡"},{"start":2623.844,"end":2651.298,"text":"自主學習團體及六零大學來促進長者多元的學習機會持續推動第三期家庭教育中整計畫並整合國立社交機構跟圖書館的相關設備以能夠更全面性的來進行終身學習場域服務的品質那對於新住民的這方面我們也建置新住民子女的支持體系打造多元文化共榮的社會在原民教育方面"},{"start":2652.018,"end":2679.162,"text":"為建構原住民學生安心的學習環境持續檢討及補助就學相關的費用並促進地方原住民族教育支援中心及大專校院原住民學習支援中心發揮功能並持續增置有關在大專校院的原民專班同時精進原住民族教育施肢及原民公費生的培育並發展原住民子實驗教育來培育原民的多元人才在體育運動方面"},{"start":2680.203,"end":2701.82,"text":"國家運動科學中心在去年9月16正式的接牌後續也會以更這個科技運動科學的方式來支持我們的選手教練提升我國選手的競技實力那也會拓展相關多元的賽事交流以及呢對於學生的選手的持續的照顧那麼也會定期的來進行那這方面"},{"start":2705.523,"end":2731.281,"text":"這些年確實在這方面我們也建立了相關選手的培訓基礎如黃金計畫從2.0到3.0的部分也創造了非常多在全世界綜合賽事上面不管是世大運、亞運乃至東京奧運都有很好的這個成績那在青年發展部分為深化青年公共的參與職業發展及體驗學習也持續推動青年好政系列以及USCAR創新創業等的這方面"},{"start":2733.882,"end":2757.442,"text":"以及來協助為就業衛生學的青年自信銜接的青少年生涯探索號的這個計畫希望能夠更促進青年生涯的探索跟後續的子涯生涯的發展那麼以上報告敬請各位委員持續給本部指導跟指教那各項的施政重點部分再請委員來詳談敬祝各位委員健康平安謝謝"},{"start":2759.373,"end":2760.614,"text":"非常謝謝潘部長的報告我們現在就開始來進行詢答每個委員質詢的時間是10分鐘必要時可以延長2分鐘列席的委員質詢時間是5分鐘"},{"start":2775.703,"end":2800.874,"text":"發言登記的截止時間是上午10點30分那如果有臨時提案的話也請於上午的10點30分提出那如果說本委員會質詢結束後我們就馬上立即來做一個處理那處理提案的時候如果提案的委員還有聯署的委員均不在場那我們原例就會不予處理那我們現在就首先請發言登記第一位的陳培瑜委員質詢謝謝"},{"start":2805.393,"end":2810.314,"text":"謝謝趙委有請部長那部長跟趙委不好意思因為感冒很嚴重還沒有好請允許我戴著口罩謝謝呃委員早好部長早好時間有限了我們先來請教部長喔最近有這兩天有一個很重要的新聞就是這個高中職免學費的政策可是有私立高中的家長在反映喔為什麼會有一校兩制的情況呢因為"},{"start":2829.279,"end":2840.384,"text":"他們說在高級中等教育法裡面有提到一件事情就是直升還有重讀的部分沒有免學費那這個部分可不可以請部長關於相關的法規跟規定給予一個說明好不好謝謝是好謝謝委員我想這個部分委根委員報告在102年當時政府要推動有關"},{"start":2855.231,"end":2861.655,"text":"關於12年國教免試入學的一個重大的政策當時應該制定有關高級中等教育法的規範我應該所關心的這部分在當時我也查閱十幾年前的立法的過程其實在這幾個相關的議題上稍微的立委有相當"},{"start":2873.782,"end":2875.884,"text":"多元的不同的意見這些條文都是經過最後表決的方式通過最後是通過國民黨團當時在這方面的考慮因為這涉及到私校公共性還有呢"},{"start":2889.095,"end":2902.772,"text":"以及對於入學制度上因為當時整個政策是以高中免試入學作為一個政策的核心那對於採取直升等等的這一些其實在整個政府的資源上面是應該要有所的"},{"start":2904.554,"end":2904.694,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2927.177,"end":2935.92,"text":"教育公共性以及整個國家在高中值入學制度這方面的政策他所涉及到的面是相當的廣泛所以在102年才會有那麼樣的充分討論這樣我聽明白也就是說在當時的法規跟免失尊重這個免失入學情況下"},{"start":2944.382,"end":2965.206,"text":"到目前為止我個人的價值觀都還是支持這個論述但是這個免學費的政策這個美意對於現在這個心智的家長他們認為他們是被排除在外的我覺得是這個被排除在外的心情我們必須要考慮到當然我們也不能全面都只有站在家長這一邊我們如何考慮到這個教育的公共性跟這個公平性還有這個資源分配的適當性當然還有政府預算的問題"},{"start":2968.527,"end":2972.009,"text":"但是因為今天時間有限是不是就之後有機會請教育部跟國教署後續在這個問題上繼續進行開放的討論跟演繹當然還有包含不同黨派的人我相信大家對這個題目都會有不同的看法是不是部長我們之後再來討論這個命題好 各位報告這個我想最近其實有家長在反映這個議題是"},{"start":2989.301,"end":3005.013,"text":"那也隔了10多年我想這部分教育部會來跟地方政府還有相關家長團體跟學校這方面在進行這些意見上的研商那相關的研商報告是不是就可以再交給所有教育文化委員會的委員我相信所有教育文化委員會應該都會收到類似的澄清跟相關的意見好嗎我們儘快來做一些研商那這方面整體的評估"},{"start":3013.439,"end":3017.503,"text":"我相信這個還需要一段很長時間的評估好 謝謝第二個問題就最近有發生這個特教紳士的衝突事件我想相關的新聞我就不再贅述但是我想要談的另外一個比較大的問題其實在去年特教法修完之後普特融合的現象普特融合的情況在教育現場我們都知道是教育的主流"},{"start":3036.181,"end":3055.817,"text":"可是我們發現最大的問題是老師普生的老師他們其實需要很多特教資源的協助跟協助可是我們也知道在普特融合的現場特教老師其實光是照顧特教學生已經疲於奔命甚且我們知道有非常多縣市他們連特教助理員都不夠正式的特教老師也不夠"},{"start":3056.638,"end":3073.155,"text":"在這個事情之後我們先不去管事情的個案我們來看通案教育部這邊有沒有任何想法來協助普特融合的教育現場普師還有特師如何合作還有普師所需要的特教相關知識跟資源因為像我過去自己修教育學分其實特教並不是規定必修"},{"start":3074.756,"end":3074.856,"text":"獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":3098.844,"end":3098.864,"text":"獲得獎項獎項"},{"start":3118.618,"end":3118.638,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":3134.589,"end":3134.829,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3151.576,"end":3151.717,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":3171.87,"end":3172.591,"text":"政府應負起更大的支持責任"},{"start":3187.663,"end":3212.284,"text":"我之前有聽部長說過不過我覺得各個縣市的個別情況非常非常不一樣而且其實根據很多第一線的老師給我們的反應還有家長還有學生的狀況我們都知道現在特教生的情況每一個樣態都非常非常特殊所以除了部長剛剛所說到的預算跟增加1600位之外我相信還有更多第一線的聲音我們需要聽到那因為今天時間有限我想後續我們辦公室持續會在特教題目上跟學特使的"},{"start":3214.386,"end":3220.471,"text":"因為各縣市的差異其實這存在的現象是應該要來持續的做否則有的兩萬多有的到三萬多我有講待遇所以這一次目前我們也正在依照剛才所支持的這四年計畫也來制定相關的要點跟實施的手冊就是跟縣市開了兩次會議啦這個的目的就是希望不管特教生分布在哪個縣市特教老師在哪個特教助理人在哪個地方應該要被一致的"},{"start":3244.07,"end":3265.486,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":3265.526,"end":3282.761,"text":"他們快速回應了他們把非屬情節重大對不起非屬情節重大改成情節重大但是仍然維持停聘一年也就是說他只是把非屬兩個字拿掉部長你有沒有看過這個小孩被受虐的影片我是沒有是同仁有跟我特別提到尤其"},{"start":3283.682,"end":3306.254,"text":"這個影片我試著播放看看我就簡單的說這個老師他在對小孩拉他的他說他要幫他拉筋拉筋然後是為了讓他學數數所以你可以聽到這個小孩現在可能聽不到他的聲音小孩在哭喊著17 18 19 20他在數數然後老師的藉口是藉由這個拉筋然後讓他來學數數但是這個小孩的狀況適合這樣嗎還有這樣難道不是體罰嗎可是宜蘭縣政府在記者會之後立刻改口說"},{"start":3311.997,"end":3331.872,"text":"非屬情節重大改成是是情節重大但是仍然維持停兵一年請問署長跟部長你們來自地方教育第一線你們認為這樣的判定適合嗎因為一年後這個沒有教師證他也沒有特教教師證他更且沒有一般的教師證他又可以回到經過三招之後他可以回到全台灣任何一個地方去當代理老師這樣合適嗎"},{"start":3334.013,"end":3334.773,"text":"謝謝委員還有我們幾位委員的關切這個也讓我們注意到這個個案"},{"start":3360.687,"end":3369.749,"text":"之前我也特別請署長除了發正式的公文要求依然縣教育處應該應該還有不只是這個學生還有另外也可能有學生受到這種比較不當的這個管教的方式所以已經請依然縣教育處應該再重行對於這方面能夠再做瞭解跟做審議那這個方面我想從這個個案委根委員報告教育部現在"},{"start":3388.473,"end":3391.794,"text":"國教署這邊也在研擬一個即使在幾個不同情節下那也有一個比較客觀衡量的這樣的一個基準目前正在研定因為我也謝謝委員我們在之前通過了有關兩個條例在不當管教的這方面幼兒園這方面確實有更多在處理這上面的一個更好的處理的機制但是在橫走就像這個個案一樣"},{"start":3415.124,"end":3430.662,"text":"雖然把它列為情節重大但這個之間其實還有相當的比如1到4年或裁罰6萬到60萬這個之間我覺得我們還可以再有一些基準部長這個基準可不可以在一個月內提供書面報告給所有教育文化委員會的委員"},{"start":3432.832,"end":3434.394,"text":"關於體育改革的事情那天總質詢的時候還來不及問完我想就先談這個"},{"start":3462.555,"end":3468.841,"text":"女竹這個合約的問題不知道部長知道這件事情我簡單的跟你說這份合約呢裡面非常非常的不合理包含第一個"},{"start":3470.739,"end":3493.414,"text":"呃明明這個錢是國訓中心出的但是在這份合約裡面說卻是竹協支付給女竹再來他要女竹把所有的肖像權影音權全部授予甲方也就是竹協無償使用再來同意甲方製作其肖像影像簽名等商品的獲利皆為甲方單方所所有這個我過去在文化界工作我覺得非常非常不可思議接下來"},{"start":3494.275,"end":3524.275,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":3525.035,"end":3539.485,"text":"資訊他們都還沒有收回這個合約我想請部長說明一下可不可以我就直接要求了我時間有限我可不可以就直接要求教育部發函要求主協把相關合約文件正本退還給球員還有在研議未來單項協會跟運動員的協議必須要參照棒球模式如果有運動員團體就要以團體協會的方法洽談"},{"start":3546.329,"end":3546.349,"text":"閱讀委員會議．"},{"start":3563.541,"end":3563.861,"text":"為什麼要等到3月25日?"},{"start":3582.296,"end":3584.758,"text":"議員提到的我也會請署理頭未來在這方面要積極協助讓協會跟運動員之間是做最好合理的"},{"start":3607.657,"end":3628.726,"text":"最後這個研議的部分我想請教育部3個月內給我們一份相關的討論報告以後要簽訂相關合約的時候如何保障球員的權益而不是讓協會單方面發聲然後體育署作為背書單位這個我要等到教育部的報告3個月內可以嗎可以好謝謝部長謝謝署長謝謝教委謝謝我們謝謝陳委員接下來我們請第二位的洪孟凱洪委員質詢"},{"start":3637.802,"end":3666.926,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請潘部長部長早部長早部長我想我們很多人在網路上都有看到一個高中生這個特教生在課堂上面跟老師的一個衝突是部長有看到這影片嗎我有看兩段都有看因為一段是五分鐘一段是兩分多鐘因為同仁其實有把這個詳細的情形有讓我知道你什麼時候知道的昨天"},{"start":3672.416,"end":3685.949,"text":"在這個過程裡面當然第一一開始的時候老師這邊有講到說這個同學坐在第一排那後來這同學就直接當老師的面罵了五字經然後動手這一些您都有看到嗎"},{"start":3687.17,"end":3702.258,"text":"我們現在就想要探討幾個比較重點的部分就是說普特融合的一個狀況那現在上路但是會不會這只是個案還是這是通案我想站在教育部長的立場我先請教您對於這個老師的處置來講您覺得可以嗎?"},{"start":3707.442,"end":3722.203,"text":"我跟委員報告 行為對象是我們特教孩子 也都了解到他是在情緒這方面從過往學校所了解到掌握到的 他就是一個比較有這方面傾向甚至有道理"},{"start":3722.884,"end":3722.904,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":3738.629,"end":3757.575,"text":"對於老師受到這方面的傷害當然就被攻擊了我想從對於教育人員為了在執行教學的過程受到這方面的傷害我想這部分我們也表達非常大的遺憾跟關心所以我想對於這一起衝突當然台北市教育局學校"},{"start":3758.776,"end":3783.113,"text":"這兩天我也看到他們在處理的機制但我跟委員報告普特融合這個已經是一個世界發展的趨勢但是這個理念要落實其實是要有相當大的資源跟投入來協助普特融合後不管對我們特教的孩子或在普通班進行教學的老師這個才能夠落實這一段否則師生面對這個挑戰是非常的大"},{"start":3783.733,"end":3806.46,"text":"市長我想先兩個重點第一這個老師他在被動就並沒有做任何再進一步的一個去不管是說跟學生的這樣的一個互動其實某種程度上我覺得看到這個老師他其實非常被動的沒有讓自己陷入在更危險的一個狀況那有人就講啊就說難道這個老師一開始不知道他是特教生嗎這有沒有去了解"},{"start":3813.813,"end":3827.243,"text":"所以現在就講是說當普特融合的時候當一個班級裡面有特教生有過去有講是說避免標籤化所以說不要盡可能不要讓大家知道說誰是特教生誰不是特教生但是連老師都不知道嗎"},{"start":3828.044,"end":3844.566,"text":"那這樣的話對於第一線的教育工作者來講他是不是就會沒有辦法掌握一個班級的現實的狀況而反而造成這樣子危險的情況 層出不窮部長你認為呢如果是特教孩子這個從IEP的評估都不是一個人一個老師"},{"start":3845.327,"end":3846.127,"text":"我跟委員報告 因為這個現在是"},{"start":3871.254,"end":3899.609,"text":"我們要不要避免我們第一線的教育工作者以後遭受這樣的暴力行為這個我跟委員報告因為現在是這個學年度的第二學期學生應該不是突然在這個班級內那我剛才跟委員報告說在學生的輔導上那個IEP的評估的工作本來就是一個team的概念那你任教的老師這不是秘密只是老師不要在班級教學指導學生的時候讓孩子被特別標籤但我相信啦"},{"start":3900.229,"end":3911.3,"text":"以這個學校我當然可以請同仁在進一步瞭解老師是不是瞭解我相信以剛才跟委員報告的時空不太可能是不瞭解但是我應該提醒到一段我想這個我們未來應該跟縣市學校再強化的"},{"start":3915.023,"end":3935.885,"text":"就是師生互動 因為一起碰到這些特效孩子的一些處理的應變的原則其實這一點對老師來講是也蠻必要的因為就我所了解到的 這個可能是學生跟老師在老師有一些規範的用詞啦 可能對這個孩子也許特殊的孩子就是這樣 有一些跟他認知不一樣"},{"start":3936.525,"end":3949.978,"text":"部長,本期為什麼會給你那麼多時間來解釋其實要說明的就是我們也希望在第一線教育工作者他的一個教授權是受到保障的我們也不希望這樣的一個暴力行為持續的發生對不對因此我們才會避免"},{"start":3953.641,"end":3967.226,"text":"由這樣的一個個案避免未來有什麼精進的空間能夠避免未來的這些暴力性再次發生嗎?是不是?當然新北那個不幸的事件也讓我們跟地方政府對於輔導管教注意事項有了更深入的討論這當中有一點非常重要的就是老師在合理常態的管教的這部分我們要賦予這個注意事項的修訂"},{"start":3978.63,"end":3978.87,"text":"這是一個重點"},{"start":3994.142,"end":3998.046,"text":"議員提到這個特教生為什麼會特別提到說因為每一個孩子偶突發的狀況其實這個對老師在應對應變各方面其實我們希望還是有一個機制避免說因為一時的語言刺激"},{"start":4012.762,"end":4031.385,"text":"所以現在重點在於是說我們的機制是不是完善跟完備嘛好不好部長這一點真的要請我們是不是有相關單位針對這個部分我們找各縣市政府來開會討論這樣的一個機制完善委員可以這個我剛才跟委員報告輔導與管教辦法的注意事項是全面性"},{"start":4031.886,"end":4056.271,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":4056.451,"end":4078.418,"text":"我們也希望這樣的事情不要再發生我完全認同委員的這個建議謝謝部長一個月內召集各縣市政府教育局針對這樣的一個個案避免類似的狀況再發生好不好再來部長每年我們都會討論到這個學習歷程檔案學習歷程就每次要升高中升大學嘛對不對那就已經又再重複我覺得好像這已經是這個"},{"start":4081.844,"end":4091.073,"text":"每年大家都講說學習歷程檔案輪軍備競賽你知道現在坊間最近的行情是多少錢嗎一套有沒有看媒體有媒體報導啊一套20萬"},{"start":4095.885,"end":4116.867,"text":"一套20萬 這個真的是冤枉錢部長我相信不是你去推啦我現在講我也相信說我們學習電產案立出來不是說要讓人家做業績但是確實每年持續循環這也不是委員第一次在這邊質詢這個議題我相信你回答都回答很多次了但是到目前為止都還有啊"},{"start":4117.347,"end":4126.518,"text":"不管是自由時報不管是UDN不管是聯合新聞網都有寫到代價20萬贏對收費上萬元學習歷程做代寫軍備競賽還有坊間喊套20萬商品化造假亂象重生"},{"start":4135.097,"end":4135.197,"text":"我跟你們報告齁"},{"start":4157.415,"end":4179.605,"text":"如果學習歷程檔案用以推增就是現在馬上往下就是大學入學推增階段在過往就是有所謂的備審資料因為推增不可能只看學測成績嘛否則就不叫推增了我們現在問的是你覺得說學習歷程檔案到底現在推了這幾年利大於弊還是弊大於利應該是利大於弊還是利大於弊但是每年都還是有這種喊價軍備競賽這怎麼講過去在備審資料然後你剛剛講是說你都沒有去我們有些時候都還講語情分析啊"},{"start":4188.07,"end":4216.084,"text":"每個部會現在都在做語情分析編錢給媒體公關公司每天收集相關部會結果那麼重要的一個20萬的一個新聞你沒有看到委員我有看到我只是表達你剛又說沒看到不是我是說我從來不答不支持這樣的做事我們沒有人支持這樣的做事但是今天就是教育部設計的這個制度讓這樣的亂象持續重生所以本是一開始開宗明義才講是說每年到了這個時候要升學前"},{"start":4216.544,"end":4239.003,"text":"因為委員對這個議題也關心我剛才為什麼會說過往就有備審資料備審資料照樣可以做類似的事情所以剛才委員提到學習基礎談判我們有沒有檢討因為我知道朝偉這個禮拜三就會排我們去科技大樓考察也會看這個相關的議題所以禮拜三你們也會做專案報告但重點在於是是不是"},{"start":4242.085,"end":4262.332,"text":"家長們反正叫一叫喊一喊你說力大於弊部長一句力大於弊所以持續推那家長反正就是每年到了就是看誰的資源多誰能參加國際的營隊誰能怎麼樣他就履歷比較漂亮資源少的學生他就永遠沒有辦法有這樣的先起跑點就已經輸別人"},{"start":4263.473,"end":4278.968,"text":"委員這個東西當然一定要持續宣傳我們能夠怎麼檢討我跟委員報告營隊的部份教育部是非常嚴格的要求各大專校院如果因為辦收費的營隊又嫁接到學校未來入學考試這會重層這個是我跟你講我們現在懲罰了幾個學校"},{"start":4281.909,"end":4310.029,"text":"有抓到嗎?不是,因為我們這個之前我現在就講了你現在講是說應該要這樣子說現在有沒有任何一個學校有抓到委員應該以前是個別學校那個資料我可以提供委員有個別的教授進行這件事情我們就追到學校去了我當然不好講哪個大學名字那之後我們就覺得說這種現象確實會影響到入學的公平這是我跟委員報告的對,您剛提的本席認同不能影響公平當然不能啊"},{"start":4310.709,"end":4337.399,"text":"部長所以說你等下那相關資料會後給本席一份本席會持續追這個議題那最後一分鐘的時間我確認一下現在有講到是說之前我們關心這個男籃的部分保險費男子籃球男籃那個時候球員講說只有保五萬元的失能險甚至有講說打中華隊理賠金額只有三萬元那對於我們國人來講這種感情是沒有辦法接受"},{"start":4337.619,"end":4338.9,"text":"現在有說要比照棒球國家棒球隊請教現在溝通狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":4353.473,"end":4356.254,"text":"跟我們報告確實未來我們這些國家隊的選手的保險籃球的部分就只要是國家隊因為涉及到是職業球員的部分是這個關鍵這部分我們就會比照棒球音樂有職業球員的方式加保"},{"start":4370.622,"end":4380.053,"text":"現在就是教育部會跟金管會來因為有幾個保險公司目前我們都在希望透過金管一起洽談能夠對國家的選手以這樣的模式來保障這個選手萬一受到運動的傷害所以現在進行的狀況怎麼樣我就直接問啦比較具體的問題下一次國際的盃賽會不會再有這樣的狀況發生"},{"start":4392.546,"end":4408.877,"text":"你能不能保證下一次國際的盃賽不會再有這樣子什麼3萬5萬里北京的狀況發生?因為這部分政府都直接聯繫下一次如果以籃球的部分是11月份應該在這之前我們有可以跟保險公司洽商﹖可以處理好那請教女籃的部分呢?你有沒有看到先聽部長先聽本席吧問題問完"},{"start":4415.862,"end":4440.803,"text":"有沒有看到那個時候我們男子的這個球員他在臉書上發言的時候居然還有女籃的球員來下面留言說哈原來你們還有保險喔那網路上的民眾一炸鍋喔原來是有保險三萬五萬對於女子籃球來講這已經是一個很好的待遇了那就代表女子籃球更沒有那還有以國家隊來講本席的狀況本席是愛運動的我相信部長也是"},{"start":4441.864,"end":4463.936,"text":"喜歡運動的人對於我們的這種中華隊只要能夠代表國家代表出隊的都好那辦職業咧包括現在男子排球女子排球他也有辦職業運動啊他也有職業聯賽啊那這些職業聯賽如果說未來男子排球女子排球他們也要出賽的時候能不能也協助他們有一個合格合理的保險"},{"start":4466.216,"end":4483.584,"text":"還是只限說南南南棒這種關注大的觀眾多的票房多的號召力強的網路聲量高的我們重視那其他的聲量小的沒有什麼比相對現在比較沒有辦法有那麼多球迷的可是他是值得我們培養的我們就不重視我想應該不會吧"},{"start":4485.604,"end":4506.09,"text":"最近幾位都是比較因為有職業選手 職業選手的薪資待遇差異很大啦職業選手大嘛 然後他的名群光環比較大嘛 但我們現在講的是說 如果說要是同仁 辦職業運動男子排球聯賽女子排球聯賽也很多人關注啊 當然他們不是完全的職業運動 但辦職業運動啊"},{"start":4509.295,"end":4510.595,"text":"主席,您的態度是什麼?"},{"start":4526.801,"end":4554.105,"text":"現在目前一般選手也許都不是領薪資的選手也不少這方面是我們有關在這方面運動的一般保險可能要分了幾個類型來努力本席同意所以我剛才講除了說第一級比較健全的中華職棒或是男藍或者是第二級半職業運動以及現在沒有職業運動但是一樣會是國家代表隊他應該是有這個等級但是我們之前的應該是國民體育法吧"},{"start":4555.126,"end":4558.852,"text":"提議法反正就確定就是只要是能夠擔任我們中華隊的"},{"start":4560.134,"end":4561.995,"text":"委員這部份這個組長很積極也朝這樣方向在努力"},{"start":4587.825,"end":4615.524,"text":"本期會持續追也希望署長真的交出成績單我想維護保障運動選手一直是我們的目標是我們共同的目標我們要一起加油好不好謝謝好謝謝洪孟凱委員然後接下來我們請第三位的吳佩儀吳委員不好意思然後我們還請每位委員請尊重發言時間10分加2分不然老師要稍微要當訓導主任只給你最多1分鐘因為今天人數非常的多好謝謝主席我請體育署好體育署"},{"start":4619.483,"end":4643.702,"text":"委員好 署長好 署長我知道您也是體育人所以過去幾年期間我們其實看到了我們體育界很多的進步跟持續的努力但是因為最近我在媒體上面也看到了我們藍國手的心聲真的是看到令人相當的心痛所以我今天希望就一些問題在這裡提出來跟署長來討論剛剛這個簡報上面第一頁的標題"},{"start":4654.135,"end":4666.267,"text":"我們這個國手他是發文他是這樣子說的他說別人已經準備在世界的賽場上面準備大幹一場了我們還在媽媽石塊然後我看到更心痛的是他說我沒有任何不好的想法或立場我們運動球員都是這個樣子嘛"},{"start":4678.55,"end":4701.091,"text":"球員只想要心無旁騖的來專心比賽那我想請問一下署長我們的南蘭去年在杭州亞運我們的成績如何?報告委員我們南蘭在3對3的部分是金牌那在團體的項目的部分是沒有奪牌去年的杭州亞運那我們今年的亞運資格賽我們成績如何?奧運資格"},{"start":4704.833,"end":4711.259,"text":"我們今年在亞運的表現,我們南蘭的成績如何?我們這一次是在16強之外是,那你認為在16強之外是不理想的原因?"},{"start":4724.344,"end":4730.907,"text":"是因為這樣的成績其實沒有發揮我們選手的實力,是不是?這個新聞出來,我看到你也提出了幾個改善的作為"},{"start":4747.333,"end":4755.999,"text":"你認為今年我們之所以我們在亞裕南蘭的成績不理想也就是說並沒有發揮我們球員應有的實力我再強調我們運動界不以成敗論英雄我今天不是說他賽事比賽成績不好而是我們的選手有這樣子的實力但是我沒有提供他們充足的後盾跟準備讓他們無法在國際舞台上面盡情揮灑你也認為成績不理想署長你有提出幾個作為你認為應該未來要如何改善"},{"start":4777.914,"end":4790.567,"text":"這部分我們覺得在祖訓的部分他的整個藍鞋的文化必須要完整的去做改革怎麼樣改革祖訓的部分今年最大的問題是過去他們是用球員說連練球連球員都沒有辦法湊齊這部分就是我們講的就是"},{"start":4794.952,"end":4818.962,"text":"一開始的主訓就是用總教練責任制來去挑選選手而沒有讓球團來參與所以這部分我們已經所以沒有辦法穩定的提前集訓並且湊齊是對一個40人名單長期的集訓而且球團各派三位代表整個聯盟進來一起參與未來我們主訓會建立一個明確穩定的制度不會再發生今年的情況對不對因為球團進來才能真正堅持到選手另外還有兩點的問題署長你也提出解決的方案了嗎"},{"start":4825.265,"end":4847.186,"text":"請另外兩點問題我們如何解決報告委員在保險的部分目前國內的產險的量能其實是非常非常的不足是那這部分呢我現在請產壽險的工會協助我兩件事情第一件事情我們的運動發展基金是不是可以來當作在保到在保險的一個單位第二個我們是不是可以找到國外的"},{"start":4847.546,"end":4847.987,"text":"所以我們體育署會來協助藍鞋來解決保險的問題"},{"start":4870.444,"end":4873.305,"text":"第三個今年還有發生問題是我們有規劃球員竟然是到已經要上陣比賽了要報名了才發現我們規劃球員還沒有完成續約這顯然是沒有提前來規劃我們未來這個問題如何解決"},{"start":4886.032,"end":4886.232,"text":"所以我們提議書"},{"start":4914.261,"end":4924.088,"text":"已經開始在進行介入了嗎好署長我肯定你們在第一時間提出改善精進的作為但是我也看到了代表這些問題其實由來已久我們其實可以更早來開始協助輔導跟解決尤其是主訓的問題球員表示說這已經不是第一次這問題已經發生很久那體育署對於攔血"},{"start":4943.072,"end":4963.004,"text":"有絕對的督導的責任這寫在哪裡第一個我們的國民體育法要求我們體育署必須要對團體來進行輔導督導相關等等的責任第二個我們的藍鞋他的經費的來源我們體育署每一年補助藍鞋多少經費"},{"start":4972.505,"end":4990.469,"text":"每一年藍鞋的收入總共有超過一億兩千 是來自於我們體育署的補助 這佔了藍鞋一整年收入的93% 超過了九成 也就是說藍鞋的經費補助來自於我們政府"},{"start":4991.269,"end":4997.632,"text":"法律也要求我們體育我們政府國家必須要對籃球有絕對督導的責任所以今天發生這樣的問題我肯定你們提出解決的方案但是我認為我們未來應該更積極的來提前發現問題我們不能讓球員到了國際的舞台上面外國的記者問我們的球員說你們台灣隊今年怎麼了"},{"start":5020.285,"end":5026.631,"text":"大家都很意外我們的表現並沒有把實力發揮出來我們球員只能說四個字五味雜陳我們不要再讓我們的球員到國際的舞台上面沒有辦法揮灑的時候我們才要來解決問題那我請問一下因為按照我們國體法我們體育署是不是每年對團體要進行訪視評鑑每一年會有訪視評鑑報告對不對"},{"start":5045.787,"end":5049.872,"text":"我看了一下你們最近一起我們體育署對於攔斜的方式評鑑報告裡面幾個結論第一個你們認為他有這個代表隊培訓計畫他有落實實施說打一個問號並且攔斜是要依據培訓的計畫來推動國家代表隊的培訓工作"},{"start":5066.491,"end":5068.776,"text":"我打一個問號再來你說他有訂定國家代表隊培訓計劃代表所長我要告訴你的是代表我們每一年都有訪視評鑑"},{"start":5076.69,"end":5081.511,"text":"如果我們訪視評鑑有確實的來參考選手在15第一線的意見的話這些問題我們可以在選手上場以前我們就可以提前發聲你們今天提出的解決方案可以在問題發生以前我們就先來預防了所以今天我要特別拜託署長的事我非常的肯定你們在第一時間提出解決的方案但是未來第一個"},{"start":5106.738,"end":5109.019,"text":"我認為藍協這幾年我看到他們的做法是相對消極的所以體育署基於國體法的規定基於我們政府補儲這麼多商議員的預算我們責無旁貸絕對要負起督導及輔導的責任"},{"start":5122.887,"end":5126.95,"text":"第2個我們的訪視評鑑我目前看來並沒有反映實務的現況我希望你們能夠來去檢討如何來精進第三個我希望我們體育署要建立跟國手溝通的平台我看到署長你就其他的球類也都一直有在讓這樣的溝通對話發生我也希望我們這件事情可以盡快來做讓未來明年下一次"},{"start":5145.504,"end":5164.413,"text":"我們絕對要讓我們的國手走進國際舞台的時候是可以盡情的把他們的實力表現出來好不好報告委員您的第二點跟第三點也是目前我們從去年我也是以身作者一直在告訴協會我們的原則是服務選手所以這部分一定要跟選手有更好的成功接下來也要跟你討論的是我們的信心運動一樣是這是我們霹靂舞的國手"},{"start":5170.296,"end":5171.878,"text":"新興運動也是這幾年我們台灣非常重要體育的項目但是因為霹靂舞他被納入了這個奧運所以我們看見了我們體育署在培養潛力的新興運動我覺得有很多我們可以再來加強的地方"},{"start":5190.635,"end":5195.217,"text":"例如說這個霹靂舞它是先被納入了澳運然後2023年也在亞運可是我們目前台灣的全運會2025年是要把霹靂舞納入全運會的項目但是我們在全大運以及全中運目前還沒有把霹靂舞這個項目納入那我今天是以霹靂舞作為一個個案來跟你討論整體的新興運動我們未來要如何跟我們基層體育的培訓來進行一個選就目前看到幾個問題跟署長討論"},{"start":5219.206,"end":5222.029,"text":"我們現在有3點第一個是基層運動的訓練培訓站再來是我們全中運全大運等等的要點跟準則的規定因為在你的規定裡面你必須除了必辦之外選辦的項目必須要已經納入了這個衙奧運並且認為有多拍潛力並且你限制只能選辦"},{"start":5238.383,"end":5252.427,"text":"一致兩項所以這樣這樣的條件之下其實除了霹靂舞之外我們還有非常多的新興成立的運動項目但是它還沒有被納入奧運所以呢就算主辦單位想要來選辦也沒有辦法納入這一點我希望我們體育署可以來討論因為我認為我們應該是順序應該是先來培養基層的體育有一天他們都有可能代表台灣代表我們國家走進國際的賽會舞台"},{"start":5266.67,"end":5266.69,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":5292.281,"end":5295.745,"text":"那接下來我請教育部部長首相請回謝謝請問主席我還有"},{"start":5300.117,"end":5300.797,"text":"目前我們會依照青年政策綱領的推動基礎下"},{"start":5329.909,"end":5337.295,"text":"來研議後續青年基本法的後續來做要跟部長提醒的是我希望我們速度可以加快因為過去我在臺北市議會我們地方的六都最早2015年桃園市首創青年局那再來高雄新北臺北市也終於在今年來成立了"},{"start":5347.483,"end":5352.405,"text":"所以目前看起來我們地方政府青年局的業務走得比我們青發署來得快來得廣因為地方的青年局對青年的定義是在45歲以下而我們青發署目前看起來是以學生族群為主所以我想我們對青發署業務的盤整是刻不容緩所以我希望我們青年基本法盡快來研議然後做初步的研議的方案給我們一個書面好不好"},{"start":5375.635,"end":5381.799,"text":"謝謝委員,我們會朝這個方向來努力謝謝吳佩儀委員接下來我們請柯志恩委員發言謝謝張偉,我們是不是請部長?請潘部長張偉好部長好,部長你已經做好續任的準備嗎?"},{"start":5401.485,"end":5405.849,"text":"謝謝張偉關心我想這個是新任總統的還有院長的職權是我這樣子提問最主要是希望不要讓教育部每個人都有所謂的代退的一個心態或者剩下未來的70當天我們就會變成質詢變成教育大家談這就不是我們所希望能夠做到的那既然是如此的話那要上緊發條我認為這個是非常重要的所以請問部長你當初所承諾的"},{"start":5428.707,"end":5429.328,"text":"學生輔導法及營養午餐專法會期可否在520之前送到我們立法院?"},{"start":5460.227,"end":5480.152,"text":"關於午餐專法的部分教育部近期就會送到行政院做相關的審議那這部分也跟院長還有政委那邊來報告外界都很關注各界都很關注沒有錯所以我就是不斷的希望大家能夠上緊發條在520之前該做完的事情大家能夠把它來做一個持續那我為什麼剛剛問到續任的問題因為"},{"start":5481.912,"end":5493.017,"text":"最近有個獨派非常接應賴清德能夠找到一個所謂具有臺灣主體意識的人來當教育部長部長你覺得這樣的一個說法你自己個人認為怎麼樣"},{"start":5494.382,"end":5522.665,"text":"我跟趙偉報告,因為趙偉也是教育人,也了解到教育就是教育了,教育還是要以特別學生受教學生是一個主體,我想這些年教育部我自己個人也都是以這樣的方式來規劃相關政策沒有錯,所以部長你在未來如果你沒有續任你在跟新部長交接的時候你是否會把你剛剛所提到的不要在我們教育裡面搞政治這樣的一個初衷也能夠持續的告訴我們的新部長"},{"start":5523.425,"end":5524.346,"text":"教育部長潘文忠列席報告"},{"start":5549.561,"end":5550.602,"text":"獲得教育部長潘文忠列席報告"},{"start":5573.942,"end":5574.783,"text":"但是還有另外一件事情也是我在我"},{"start":5589.335,"end":5597.104,"text":"第9任召委任內的時候呢但是部長也特別提到了希望能夠呼應我們體育界希望能夠有一個室內的田徑的一個場地部長這是非常重要當時候我們在第9屆的時候呢部長特別提到會找地"},{"start":5605.074,"end":5609.558,"text":"然後呢我們可以往下面去看現在連我們鄰近的經濟條件比不上我們的越南他都我們非常的羨慕他都可以舉辦亞洲的室內田徑場就你看看我們這些的球員我們這邊的田徑選手而且呢那時候呢體育署答應掃地但是體育署沒有辦法補助所以高教署也只能補助三分之二目前就在林口體育那時候我們找到的是我們的林口體大那也就是我們的署長當時候就是我們的這個校長"},{"start":5634.597,"end":5643.671,"text":"那你現在是署長你也承諾你要好好做這樣的一個事情可是很顯然還缺3億3億對於很多的田徑學小說是非常重要的難道沒有辦法解決嗎部長"},{"start":5644.855,"end":5666.8,"text":"總務長 總務長"},{"start":5666.9,"end":5668.881,"text":"但是部長差3億而已從那時候講到現在才差3億那現在會有國訓中心什麼時候可以完成這樣的一個方向"},{"start":5686.147,"end":5686.167,"text":"國訓計畫執行"},{"start":5705.72,"end":5708.221,"text":"一份學習地程檔案通常都會有三位教授來去看,一個人通常可以拿到50塊"},{"start":5728.444,"end":5733.006,"text":"審查費叫做50塊你覺得這麼快速這麼樣的一個部分就像剛剛這個題目一出來每個大學老師說大概有80%都可以看出什麼是真什麼是假但是你覺得可以看多少時間付多少錢給大學老師真的可以看得出來嗎部長我還真的點進去看但對不起要收費喔然後裡面零零總總的我只是說當他們提出來一條龍叫叫20萬的時候我們教育部只是告訴大家不要浪費這些錢"},{"start":5757.856,"end":5767.407,"text":"但是這就是一個事實而且你全部打進去Google可以滿天飛難道教育部完全沒有任何的作為就讓這件事情來告訴大家你不要去相信這些難道就這樣可以嗎你覺得大學老師真的就可以看得出來學習地勢要拿真跟假嗎"},{"start":5773.957,"end":5776.56,"text":"李瑞玲是108課綱的第一屆孩子幾位也都是一直在擔任參與的老師們"},{"start":5794.477,"end":5806.301,"text":"我覺得宣導這件事情教育部一定要再持續努力因為我想趙委知道家長信或不信這件事情是一個很關鍵的部長我現在只是告訴你這件事情目前在家長圈已經造成非常大的對於這個學習歷程檔案的一個軍備我只是告訴部長一個實情"},{"start":5816.004,"end":5819.707,"text":"當已發生這樣的狀況的時候呢教育部沒有辦法就像我說的你沒有辦法要求數位部或其他相互會的這樣的部會共同來讓家長安心嗎數位部打仗無能難道教育部對於要下架這一些所謂隨時可以看到在網站的這些業者難道一點辦法都沒有嗎一點對於代寫這樣的一件事情完全沒有辦法有作為只是勸告嗎"},{"start":5839.482,"end":5856.881,"text":"各位報告,如果有察覺到這個有關民間的這些廣告或平台教育部是會確實去去喊做要求要下架了現在有沒有下架呢?沒有喔現在你Google打上去還是非常多喔他可能還是有一直在產生的這些想要從這當中去賺取利益的那你們怎麼做法?就是我們當然會去察覺啦"},{"start":5860.445,"end":5861.025,"text":"教育部部長潘文忠列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":5888.32,"end":5909.766,"text":"接下來還有因為這是義務報告所以我覺得很多事情我們會以後用專案來做一個處理有關英語雙語教育的一個問題這個賴清德當年當市長的時候在當台南市長的時候他特別提出來這個雙語所以我不曉得台南現在是已經變成這個所謂的第二官方語言的不知道但是呢部長4年的時間100億來推動2030的雙語政策你覺得目前為止成果如何"},{"start":5916.788,"end":5920.151,"text":"各位報告成果還是要從學生的學習表現那如果就大學的這部分因為有參與的相關的計畫會在今年做學生確實的一個你覺得大學英文因為你這樣子就變好嗎你不要問我這個大學老師你整個完全好像給你"},{"start":5934.843,"end":5941.546,"text":"我一直在強調語言的提升不可能一步到位所以為什麼我們一直在提醒也在審核都是因為你有相關的準備的計畫我們才會合以計畫也會合以相關的經費在中小學也如此但這部分我要跟趙薇也要報告一下現世的部分當然熱烈反應跟求好心切這件事情也造成很多的狀況是什麼"},{"start":5960.794,"end":5983.166,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":5983.226,"end":5983.286,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6003.957,"end":6024.492,"text":"這是一個非常大的問題但在這個原則之下我們又把這個所謂的雙語喊得滿天飛很多的第一線的老師都已經覺得目前孩子不僅是英文學不好連國語數學都學得不太好我知道之前范委員有特別提到還有很多時候在國文的真實當中也是以英文為當作非常大的一個詛咒當你把英文變成一個詛咒英文是一個國際語言沒有問題但是我們所做的方式你花了4年100億"},{"start":6033.399,"end":6051.384,"text":"到底有沒有達到這樣的效果而不是只有一個空的我們台灣將會變成是2030年一個雙語的學校不是而且我要跟部長講你還記不記得那時候我們有15個我們下一頁有16個駐台的代表聯名來致函我們的行政院提出來雙語政策的一個擔憂當他覺得我們讀遵英文的時候"},{"start":6054.065,"end":6061.049,"text":"他們認為除了楊格魯撒克遜之外的語言都完全會被會被完全簡略更不要說第一線的這些老師我只是告訴部長花了這麼多錢你覺得你的成績要帶到什麼地方目前為止從過去的很多的報告裡面雙語的教育可以說是教育的民怨的排名第一名我覺得教育部有沒有一個比較更具體更務實的做法來面對"},{"start":6076.818,"end":6085.187,"text":"否則我們還是的競爭力是越來越低落不知道有沒有更具體的做法對於雙語的學校2030為什麼要特別提出來因為賴清德當上總統了他當初可以提出一個2030的這樣的一個目標我不曉得未來在整個教育的系統上面整個雙語的系統會變成什麼樣的一個局面"},{"start":6094.652,"end":6095.052,"text":"教育部部長潘文忠列席報告"},{"start":6114.346,"end":6123.736,"text":"中央跟地方在整個處理的機制上我認為一定要再做更多的要求部長我還提出你說中央跟地方地方有很多的學校特別是雙語的學校當有人進來的時候他特別把台語的播音改成英文就是那麼一小小的事件"},{"start":6129.462,"end":6159.462,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6159.962,"end":6162.523,"text":"但是你要在生活中去做學習如果你學到師資老師都沒有辦法做到部長你這個東西對我們來說還是一個非常大的一個空間"},{"start":6181.749,"end":6185.714,"text":"所以我跟召委報告為什麼這個政策我在執行上叫做準備好的先行你根本都沒有失職你說你要推雙語這是不可行的事啦"},{"start":6200.111,"end":6222.026,"text":"好 所以部長這也驗證了目前為止還是沒有準備好你未來在2030年你還有5年的時間好不好我應該這樣子說已經準備好的學校現在就按照計畫在上路還沒有準備好的學校我們請他開始做相關的準備準備好的學校基本上面某種程度對我來說太數量太少而且沒有如你所想像部分應該教育部應該更審慎的去做這個部分我們會仔細的注意跟滾動做調整謝謝部長謝謝召委好 謝謝柯志文委員"},{"start":6239.858,"end":6248.096,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在再請我們的外媒林委員好 謝謝召委我們有請潘文忠部長"},{"start":6252.8,"end":6277.128,"text":"委員好部長好我記得上個會期我就幫您算過你那個時候就已經是中華民國史上任期最長的部長那現在算下來加一加前後已經超過7年的時間了7年的時間奉獻在教育部上那剛才其實有問到我看我們柯真委員說520的時候你會跟下一任的部長好好交接嗎但我覺得這一題好像問得快了一點我要先問您的是賴信德這個總總統有沒有徵詢您這個續任的這個意願"},{"start":6283.237,"end":6285.34,"text":"教育政策都是延續的,所以您自己有這個意願想要爭取繼續續任嗎?"},{"start":6301.087,"end":6317.905,"text":"會有這個意願嗎?委員我先把519以前委員所期待要求要做的事情做好這才是最重要的好很好那我想7年的時間在這裡真的非常的久那在這段時間裡面你所做的每一個政策每一個決定其實對我們的教育都是非常的深遠的"},{"start":6318.746,"end":6334.494,"text":"我想在教改以來這麼多年我們都知道教改教改好像一直都還是處於在改變的狀態一直都沒有辦法穩定下來我覺得這是教育現場上現在一個非常大的一個問題那在您的任內最重要的也是稍微有爭議的也就是108課綱那108課綱最初的這個初衷我們是希望讓孩子能夠減壓尤其在升學壓力上可是看來我想以下我會提幾個數據我們來檢討一下108新課綱"},{"start":6347.301,"end":6352.104,"text":"部長不知道有沒有看到根據聯合報2020年連續3年針對108新課綱做了一個民調那大致是來了解一下在教育的現場對於108新課綱的上路我們在教學上面有沒有遇到困難那結果發現在國中這個老師的部分有82.9%說遇到了困難"},{"start":6366.431,"end":6377.778,"text":"那在高中的部分更可怕了9292.3%說他們也遇到了困難同時國中的老師有64.3%在跨領域的備課上面他們認為是難執行的那麼教學負擔過重也有超過54%的人這樣的表達而高中的狀況一樣更嚴重教學負擔過重的表述有84%的人是這麼認為的而63%這個認為學習歷程檔案的狀況是非常的多"},{"start":6393.627,"end":6418.657,"text":"我想其實這樣的一個現象更弔詭的是聯合報在第一年就是108信課堂上路的時候所調查出來的數據照講我們108信課堂越上路應該越順手困難度越低才對結果不是反其道而行這樣的一個調查結果是一年比一年困難度更高一年比一年讓這些老師更無法接受所以我想本席認為其實在滿足"},{"start":6420.698,"end":6446.557,"text":"你們拿這個教改來作為自己成績的時候我們不希望其實老師已經成為高壓的血汗的教師這一群而沒有得到任何教育部的支持那我們看到這個教師工會的團體也一直在呼籲說希望能夠這個降低師生比那這個群教廠也有提到這個高中希望能夠把我們每一班2.25人調高到2.5人高職每一班兩到三人的現狀能夠調高到三人以上"},{"start":6448.899,"end":6451.241,"text":"主席,您能否解釋一下?謝謝委員,我想剛才委員所關心108課綱,那我也跟委員報告,這部分確實108課綱是比較更以學生學習發展為一個核心,這個應該是教育的一個本質,那這個過程我非常謝謝全國中小學的老師,因為這個對教學形態的準備"},{"start":6470.962,"end":6474.464,"text":"確實會一個新的挑戰所以這個階段為什麼要有前導學校執行跟老師的徵能幫我們跟很多孟恩等的教師專業社群也在努力但委員跟委員報告其實委員對這個議題也一直很關心所以如果從2022年這個全世界PISA跟OECD的這個確實看得出來台灣的孩子在科學數學跟閱讀"},{"start":6496.978,"end":6500.92,"text":"在全世界都掉下來的過程台灣的孩子是全世界第3名第4名第5名我給你這些時間是在討論我們剛剛講的問題點如果我們的眼裡都只有看到我們自己認為的這個好處而不去檢討大家面臨的難處這個政策永遠不會好所以我想本席剛才反映"},{"start":6518.007,"end":6519.368,"text":"我跟委員再補充報告因為剛才說學生的表現那種隨機取樣那代表的是老師支持孩子的教學"},{"start":6539.889,"end":6540.61,"text":"部長你到底會不會討論這件事情啦?"},{"start":6554.113,"end":6560.215,"text":"委員你先聽我說好了這短短的幾年高中值增1400多位的員額這是幾十年我們做的改變聽起來你只是拿一些舊的過去有做的東西而教師團體跟教育現場還沒有辦法滿意但是你卻沒有辦法去做其實這邊我真的差一點快要忍不住跟你說到了你對於老師的支持只是做一些奇奇怪怪的這些爭盟的課程嗎"},{"start":6580.343,"end":6587.168,"text":"包括幼兒園生殖品我們也做調整你現在教育是全面性的教育部在這幾年其實我相信一定有苦勞但是真的也是爭議不斷那我們今天談到的學習歷程檔案的部分不管是洪孟凱委員不管是柯志恩委員我們都提到了學習歷程檔案還是沒有脫離軍備競賽所以過去我們希望給孩子檢壓事上不然否則怎麼會有這麼多的廣告可以讓家長"},{"start":6608.782,"end":6635.449,"text":"想要躍躍欲試去買這些出價就可以來有寫手吸引家長去買假的活動甚至於贏對的經歷那甚至於有這個叫做一條龍服務我看了都快昏倒了可以從這個從來沒有的檔案中去無中生有甚至於可以蒐集沒有參加過的這個證書他也可以給你那最後你沒有做過的研究小論文他也可以伸出來給你叫價十幾萬二十幾萬三十幾萬都有是誰造成這樣的一個市場的"},{"start":6636.349,"end":6651.641,"text":"是誰造成有這樣的市場需求的所以部長我想要面對問題否則這7年回頭看起來你自己可能會覺得很暢然所以今天部長我在這邊請教你我們看到的都是指於討論新聞你有沒有發現這樣子在學校裡面找寫手一條龍服務的具體個案有沒有看到有沒有去查緝過到這樣的一個廣告你有做過處理嗎"},{"start":6660.658,"end":6670.128,"text":"根文報告,如果學校有一些迎對跟涉及教育學有關收費的這部分教育部不只是嚴格的行文要求而且會重層發聲的學校跟個別的指導教授有沒有發現具體的個案"},{"start":6680.879,"end":6681.299,"text":"到目前有沒有發現具體的個案?"},{"start":6681.299,"end":6681.879,"text":"部長到現在有沒有發現現在這些新聞報導中具體的個案有或沒有?"},{"start":6681.879,"end":6682.28,"text":"有沒有人去找這個寫手或者是用一條龍壺用買的?"},{"start":6682.28,"end":6682.6,"text":"目前有沒有查到具體的個案?"},{"start":6682.6,"end":6682.9,"text":"部長有沒有查到具體的個案?"},{"start":6700.247,"end":6704.872,"text":"我現在問你的很清楚你到底中文好不好啊我問你有沒有這樣的個案有沒有學生去做這樣的事情被你查到有沒有"},{"start":6719.582,"end":6724.704,"text":"委員學生有沒有去處理這個除非我們像偵查一樣但是我們認為所以你有沒有查到過你有沒有查到過除非有人檢舉嗎真的對你非常的失望當媒體這麼具體寫得沸沸揚揚的時候而您在這裡的備詢一問三不知你只要答你自己想答的而委員詢問你的你完全不針對問題我想不針對問題這問題永遠不會解決所以這一點我對你非常失望"},{"start":6749.474,"end":6764.823,"text":"所以看起來是有,對嗎?這個本來就遏止文化委員,你如果把被審資料的當時也都是類似的情況,你就會知道這不是學習歷程才造成的。我們為什麼要請大學的老師...學習歷程檔案的利益跟初衷我們從來沒有否定過。但上路以後的配套跟執行以及它的困難,還有我們需不需要一邊檢討一邊滾動式的來看怎麼做修正。"},{"start":6776.59,"end":6779.153,"text":"這些問題才不會產生到家長會覺得壓力大到孩子覺得壓力大到不知怎麼去處理所以我想北溪在這邊請教你既然有具體的個案也有查到這樣的廣告那我們有沒有什麼法則"},{"start":6793.339,"end":6807.869,"text":"因為他是一個廣告不是說他就是一個什麼事實啦那學生有這樣做的話我們對他有沒有法權當然啊跟委員報告如果代寫代書第一個在甄選其中就立刻取消資格入學就取消入學資格這是很重的懲罰喔"},{"start":6809.281,"end":6816.689,"text":"這當然是很重的懲罰但是我希望教育部長更主動一點有這樣的一個事情我們應該去想方設法到底要怎麼樣遏止不管是去調整甚至於有很多的這些學生都有在講學習歷程檔案占我們申請的20%真的太重我們有沒有考慮過要往下調整有沒有考慮過"},{"start":6831.145,"end":6831.665,"text":"所以我們現在還是會維持20%?還是會維持著?"},{"start":6856.457,"end":6883.571,"text":"應該說我們只有一個學測不超過50%其中應該尊重學校啊我想部長其實我們很了解當然不是只有我在跟你談學習生檔案你偏要跟我談其他20%以外的這80%那我想我也會請昭偉找一個時間真的要好好來排學習生檔案好好跟你說一說即便你520現在沒有被徵詢但是這政策是延續的你也要為趙改富很大的一個責任在不是520拍拍屁股走人的這些難題留給下一任的部長這樣我們是看不下去的了"},{"start":6883.911,"end":6891.018,"text":"委員我從來不是這樣的認識態度委員如果台灣的孩子在全世界的表現委員你把它否決你就否定了所有老師教育同學的努力但是更遺憾的是我們今天很多委員應該都會針對學生輔導法跟學校營養午餐法"},{"start":6903.391,"end":6928.332,"text":"在這次報告當中我們都沒有看到很明確的把它提出來那我想學生輔導法或者是學校營養午餐的專法這件事情是我們教育文化委員會所有委員大家都非常希望能夠趕快把它有進度的那剛剛聽到的是學生輔導法以及我們的學校營養午餐專法那現在的進度到哪裡了能不能在520之前也就是您卸任之前讓它有具體的進度"},{"start":6930.234,"end":6932.756,"text":"跟委員報告學生輔導法已經在行政院審慮有關午餐專法近期我們就會送行政院"},{"start":6939.636,"end":6967.604,"text":"好我想學生輔導法我們其實現在教育部跑得也很快我們也有編預算希望趕快上路來做那2億7千萬的預算不管是給國立大專院校私立大專院校但是目前還是有五成左右大學是沒有達成的因為我們很清楚知道當我們預先撥補的預算經費可是我們卻沒有法律依據是沒有強制力的所以因此雖然我們趕快把預算編了這值得讚許但是法沒有上路我想執行"},{"start":6968.584,"end":6968.824,"text":"總統有把握嗎?"},{"start":6992.043,"end":7013.156,"text":"委員我說近期就會送行政院也跟院長政委報告這方面送院後能夠儘快安排審議的行程好我們希望這兩件事情我們能夠儘快7年在這裡您有很多的貢獻當然也有很多的爭議但是教育是延續的我們希望520不管您在或不在好的政策要把它延續下去那有問題的部分我們要儘快修正謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":7015.39,"end":7030.098,"text":"好我們謝謝萬委員也謝謝部長那接下來我們是我先說明一下因為等一下因為現在是10點半我們在第7位葛如軍委員答詢完畢之後我們就休息5分鐘好嗎好現在我們請我們的范芸范委員謝謝召委有請部長"},{"start":7040.729,"end":7053.258,"text":"委員好部長好我想我今天主要要聚焦的就是特教的生師衝突我想部長非常了解就是去年我想這是您任內的一個很大的成果我們把愧為14年沒有修的特教法就是修完了也讓它上路了我們不分黨派都支持要給特教生跟師更多的資源更多的支持"},{"start":7069.108,"end":7073.012,"text":"可是我想部長您也有看到就是剛剛也有委員詢問過了這兩天在很多的群組頻傳的一個影片那很多民眾他們看到的是老師的安全問題就是說學生打老師但是有經驗的老師應該就會看到就是說這個是一個特教生師衝突"},{"start":7094.292,"end":7123.142,"text":"那也是我們的相關的政策普特融合下就是很可能是老師沒有得到足夠的支持那我不知道部長同不同意這個分析就是說老師很可能沒有得到足夠的支持特別是科目老師若不是特教老師的話他面臨到可能是情緒障礙的特教生那媒體的報導是說甚至可能會有暴力的傾向我們並不知道因為這是媒體的報導"},{"start":7124.262,"end":7136.855,"text":"如何避免這樣的狀況剛剛有委員要求說您跟各縣市政府的教育局盡快的開會我想不管是盡快的開會或者是教育部針對這個媒體報導是臺北市的高中的案例"},{"start":7141.079,"end":7163.659,"text":"做一個仔細的了解分析那我想您必須要盡快給我們教育文化委員會一個調查報告包含這個檢討如何在避免這樣的悲劇發生因為我覺得這是雙數那我們要讓所有的現場的老師安心也要讓特教生跟他的家長安心那部長是不是可以做到呢"},{"start":7164.86,"end":7171.846,"text":"我想對這個個案的部分在第一時間我們也請臺北教育局那校方這邊就這個事項再進一步的做瞭解當然這個委員剛才提到後續瞭解的這些相關的提醒跟因應我們會做一些後續的會商跟措施這個到時候再提供給委員來參考"},{"start":7190.342,"end":7198.968,"text":"可不可以給我們一個教文委員會一個調查報告跟包含就是說未來如何改善病毒可以喔那兩個月的時間夠嗎可以可以喔好那謝謝部長喔那另外就是剛剛陳培委員有問到就是我跟陳培委員我們開了一個記者會針對另外一個特教生師衝突剛剛呢是高中的普特融合現在呢是宜蘭的某國小"},{"start":7217.56,"end":7221.626,"text":"特教班是專門給特教生的居然發生嚴重的體罰案我這邊整理的就是因為這個都有驗傷的還有就是有相關的影像包含把特教生的嘴巴撐開強迫餵食"},{"start":7233.624,"end":7249.796,"text":"用束帶把學生雙手捆綁於椅子還有剛剛陳柏宇委員的影片我們有看到用拉筋的方式教學童數1到50那這個學童是自閉症跟智能障礙這一類的還有扳學童的手指還有用腳踹學童有驗傷單還有體罰是要學童雙腳撐在椅子上雙手撐地15分鐘我們現在講的是婦幼是幼稚園"},{"start":7261.764,"end":7278.187,"text":"還有說因為要訓練學童穿衣在冷氣房把學童的衣服上衣脫掉讓學童被嚇到尿褲子那我想不知道部長有沒有看到這個部分我們這邊給部長看到十幾秒這個媒體的報導你看這個影像是這樣子剛剛那個老師你就看到他現在踢小孩那這個部分是有被錄到的"},{"start":7287.329,"end":7312.21,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":7312.692,"end":7324.042,"text":"這個事情我們看到的是剛剛陳培文有講過記者會之後宜蘭縣政府的教育局把原本情節不重大的一個調查結果改成情節重大那可是呢成處都是"},{"start":7330.107,"end":7343.613,"text":"關閉一年,我想問部長,你覺得你剛剛看到這個東西,現在我們看到的資訊跟影像,陳培宇委員的影像跟我的影像,這個是不是情節重大,還是情節不重大,如果您是調查委員的話?"},{"start":7345.313,"end":7365.344,"text":"跟委員報告當然這個相關的整體事項可能用直接影片那個影片可以看得出來如果都是當事老師當事學生絕對是不妥當那情節您認為如果您是調查委員是重大還不重大跟委員報告如果就宜蘭縣的目前的調查他們在最後認定的這個會議"},{"start":7366.485,"end":7366.685,"text":"議員：邀請教育部長潘文忠"},{"start":7383.777,"end":7384.838,"text":"您認為這樣的一個老師﹖剛剛影片看到提小孩的老師﹖還有我剛剛講的這麼多的情節﹖他還適合擔任特教生的老師嗎?"},{"start":7407.11,"end":7416.599,"text":"委員如果已涉及到情節重大而且又是這樣的方式去提罰甚至用比較不好的叫另一代學生的這方面確實是不適合的連部長都認為不適合了可是呢"},{"start":7422.404,"end":7440.615,"text":"移蘭教育局的決定已經後來改口情節重大原本調查委員說不重大可是陳楚是一樣的一年後這個人就可以再當老師而且因為他本身是三昭的完全沒有特教資格沒有老師資格這樣的人來當特教班的老師因為他本來就沒有這個資格了所以一年之後他去任何一個幼稚園"},{"start":7450.12,"end":7474.418,"text":"其實據說是可以當老師的所以我覺得這個除了個案之外我覺得它反映了我們的制度有蠻大的問題那如果連潘部長你都認同這樣的人不適合當老師的話你看一下我們現在的相關法制第一個就是對調查的結果家長特教生的家長特教生是可能表達能力沒有辦法那麼清楚的家長如果對這個調查結果他是無法救濟的"},{"start":7477.9,"end":7504.578,"text":"調查結果不只拿不到報告然後無法救濟懲處的結果也無法救濟也就是說家長如果沒有辦法找到立委開記者會的話可能剛剛那個案子就是情節不重大了所以這個代表就是說那不是每個家長都願意站出來願意跟立委開記者會那我們來看一下我們在別的制度下其實家長的待遇是不同的跟學生"},{"start":7504.938,"end":7505.798,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":7522.924,"end":7526.427,"text":"獲得調查報告、調查結果、救濟,但成處結果無法救濟。又照法,很遺憾的,雖然我們也修過了又照法,可是這三個部分都還是沒有,那這個特教生的事件,"},{"start":7538.996,"end":7559.324,"text":"就是讓我們看到其實幼照法這個方面的制度也讓家長跟特教生處於不利的狀況那這樣的生師衝突我們前面看到的是高中生就是說是普教融合現在看到的是特教班是本來我們要給更多的資源然後現場發聲這樣那我想這個部分"},{"start":7562.225,"end":7582.463,"text":"就是制度問題我想謝姐我就不講了我覺得教育部應該要去演繹所以我想問的事情是第一個剛剛教育部已經承諾了針對臺北市這個高中特教生普教融合的個案怎麼去檢討如何避免能不能夠提供教師足夠的支持第二個我想請"},{"start":7584.505,"end":7589.93,"text":"潘部長也承諾應該要監督宜蘭縣政府年齡剛剛都不認同他們的懲處結果那為什麼會對特幼班能夠有這樣的狀況然後變來變去的調查結果結果還認為一年後這個老師還是事任教師所以呢宜蘭縣政府他們對特幼班事件的調查跟認定"},{"start":7608.826,"end":7613.354,"text":"是不是有任何的為師沒有遵守你們相關規定的部分這個部分潘部長可以先針對宜蘭這個個案也去做調查嗎?"},{"start":7618.479,"end":7635.294,"text":"好 謝謝委員我想對宜蘭縣政府這個剛才在過程稍微說明但教育部在2月29因為有提到說這個不只是可能這一位孩子還有可能涉及園內的其他所以我們已經要求宜蘭縣教育處要重新再做審議這個審議當然就會處理到後續的結果的組織"},{"start":7644.422,"end":7662.98,"text":"這部分在制度上我也並跟委員報告確實他現在在認定委員會已經把他以重大事件來做處理清潔重大但是在很多之間以我們的母法本來不管停聘年度他有一個期券"},{"start":7663.721,"end":7663.921,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7688.695,"end":7689.255,"text":"關於我們之前修法要求要求教育部有一個不適任教育的系統"},{"start":7707.731,"end":7724.804,"text":"但是我們發現就是如果他被停聘期間可以查到他被停聘可是一旦停聘跟公告期間過了系統上就再也查不出這個老師有情節重大的相關的這種霸凌案所以他如果再聘他的別的學校都不會知道"},{"start":7726.124,"end":7739.13,"text":"這個制度是不是有疏漏影響到學生跟家長的權益跟憂心我想部長也一併理解好不好那最後我想今天因為時間有限只剩27秒我想剛剛講的是宜蘭縣的個案那針對我講就是幼兒園失對生像這種嚴重的事件已經是違法了"},{"start":7750.315,"end":7777.453,"text":"我們的心智上路到現在是不是可以整體檢視執行的情況包含案件數、調查結果、終局處理因為我想不是只有宜蘭縣可能別的縣市也都會有還有行為人提出救濟的相關數據我們了解實情之後在針對目前的法規包含就是被害人沒有當事人地位又叫完全是這樣的話那是不是需要檢討能不能提出可行的解決方案"},{"start":7777.913,"end":7786.321,"text":"那都可以給本席還有教育委員一個報告好不好好 謝謝那多久內可以給我們的報告這個確實我們執行一年那也可以更了解縣市現在在執行這方面的狀況當然我也跟委員報告一個事情因為現在有這個制度的建立確實對於有一些案件"},{"start":7798.251,"end":7798.871,"text":"接下來我們請葛如君葛委員"},{"start":7842.065,"end":7845.086,"text":"主席有請教育部長潘部長備詢你好部長今天是我第一次透過質詢的方式與您探討我所關心的教育議題首先我想先替全國的家長以及學生送您一份禮物請問部長知道我手上拿的這個是什麼嗎"},{"start":7871.903,"end":7872.383,"text":"請教育部長收下：能不能請這個部長到主席台前"},{"start":7901.484,"end":7902.025,"text":"我今天這個大禮送給部長禮拜三我們會考察機房請您記得帶去貼"},{"start":7923.7,"end":7946.081,"text":"我今天是替全國的家長學生非常嚴肅來送部長這個龍吾霸格的春聯那我想這個禮物呢非常非常的重要原因是我們現在正值高中生上傳學習履歷的時期上週教育部呢位於科技大樓的機房卻發生火災"},{"start":7947.574,"end":7966.745,"text":"造成電力設備熔斷相關的學術網路全面斷線教育部國家圖書館科學教育館等等的網站都沒有辦法連上甚至有學校發出公告因為教育部科技大樓機房電力是目前發生火災造成本校學習歷程"},{"start":7967.725,"end":7987.498,"text":"系統間歇性不穩定中斷112學年度上學期課程的學習成果的補件以及教室認證的時間必須延後全國學生及家長可以說是膽戰心驚希望考得好成績累積得好學習歷程累積得好"},{"start":7987.958,"end":8011.654,"text":"但是他們卻非常的擔心偶心力血完成的學習歷程的檔案會復之一炬復之一炬通常我們都不講說不一定真的是燒起來但結果真的是燒起來首先請部長簡要說明這一次的火災教育部受到的影響的資訊通訊服務受到影響到底有哪些一共花了多少的時間才恢復正常的運作"},{"start":8012.242,"end":8012.602,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":8032.779,"end":8034.981,"text":"不好意思部長我想問的是花了多少時間才恢復運轉受到影響的直通服務有哪些跟委員報告這個我剛為什麼說是因為消防隊灑了水以後要去修復這個純粹是電力的部分他們一直到傍晚"},{"start":8054.501,"end":8064.044,"text":"午後電力恢復後 所有的應該不到一天晚上的時間就所有的電力恢復之後因為所有系統都沒有受到傷害早上5點多發生晚上8點多才恢復正常運轉整整將近15個小時待會我們再來分享這15個小時有多嚴重我先請問部長火災原因調查的結果到底是什麼剛剛有說這個電力但什麼原因造成了火災"},{"start":8083.168,"end":8109.257,"text":"因為跟委員報告科技大樓是教育部的資科師只有在那邊有兩個樓層他是整棟的大樓的電力系統所以他這個系統火災原因還在調還沒出來因為那個他們是專業要他們鑑定來說明好那我們什麼時候可以知道調查的結果這個我們就再促請他消防單位可以壓一個時間部長謝謝這個我們是不是可以跟委員報告可能我們再聯繫那個消防的單位"},{"start":8110.934,"end":8131.661,"text":"我想這個時間希望我們可以在兩週可以嗎這個比較不是教育部有辦法直接去我們已經喊請他們了因為外界一方面我們想要知道這個電力道怎麼發生火災原因的調查請收到之後立刻通知讓大家都知道那教育部是否有檢討如何避免火災事故再次發生"},{"start":8132.481,"end":8132.781,"text":"這次的資安事件"},{"start":8156.747,"end":8168.049,"text":"其實並不是只是火災這已經被定義為資安事件在資安通報當中部長知道我們這一次的事件被數位部定為第幾級的資安事件嗎?"},{"start":8170.294,"end":8194.272,"text":"部長知道總共有幾級嗎?4級吧?我們是主動通報的事實上第3級已經距離最高級的第4級只差1級第4級叫做動搖國本的資安事件我們距離這樣子的資安事件只有一步之遙第一級是最輕微第4級是最嚴重教育部這一次被數位部認定是第3級的事件非常的嚴重"},{"start":8195.533,"end":8212.11,"text":"難怪教育部的資安問題是持續受到關心這個2021年其實已經發生過一次9月曾經發生因為教育部委外廠商硬碟設定失誤造成81所學校一共7854名的學生25210件的學習歷程檔案的遺失"},{"start":8220.318,"end":8230.864,"text":"除了火災之外,備份也很重要,學生非常重視,老師也很重視。請教一下部長,知不知道我們這個備份在原則上應該有幾份?至少兩個。"},{"start":8233.982,"end":8260.503,"text":"事實上我們都希望應該是三份這是一個資安的321的原則而且這三份還要不同的媒體二就是要有地端跟雲端要在不同的地方同時還分線上跟線下一是你至少要有一份離線的備存那我希望這個教育部還要再加油兩份可以說是太少了希望資安知識還可以再增加那依照教育部公佈的流程"},{"start":8262.565,"end":8272.473,"text":"學習歷程檔案的上傳一共分為兩個階段第一階段將學生的這個檔案上傳到學校端的平台第二階段學校集中上傳到教育部的學習歷程中心資料庫當時發生的情況是檔案儲存在學校端還沒上傳到資料庫被工程師一鍵刪除"},{"start":8281.961,"end":8302.386,"text":"過去的錯誤已經造成了但更重要的我們要如何避免這樣的錯誤不再發生對此我的辦公室曾經多次向教育部詢問事件發生後相關作業流程的SOP如何改善但教育部始終沒有正面的回應因此我要在這裡直接的就教部長在上次的事件發生以後除了加強演練稽查外"},{"start":8303.786,"end":8326.238,"text":"是否有針對工程人員的作業流程改善避免未來一時手滑甚至這一次火燒履歷的情況再次發生就叫部長跟委員報告 委員這個後面我要澄清完全沒有火 聲音是啦 完全不涉及任何的資料沒有火災嗎不是啦 火災沒有火燒學習歷程檔案沒有資料受任何的損害這個禮拜三我想召委特別安排"},{"start":8327.819,"end":8329.74,"text":"請問沒有受到損害是不是有全面的掃描硬碟裡的資料是否有毀損?這次我跟委員報告"},{"start":8348.891,"end":8352.712,"text":"2021��2021年9月其實教育部：一個非常引以為戒的一個疏失：有﹑而且包含異地備援還有我們相關的這一些我想在禮拜三會詳細的把這部分跟昭緯還有韋納：那部長可不可以在此具體承諾未來學習歷程檔案上傳或遺失或毀損或者讓大家膽戰心驚的事件不會再發生："},{"start":8378.885,"end":8384.449,"text":"委員我們現在包含即使的備份的這一些都是SOP裡面的一環如果比如說啦我講的比如說哪一個地方他受到影響不會造成像2021年的這種情況一定不會讓學生還需要再去製作再去什麼上傳接下來的SOP麻煩再更新過來那也希望禮拜三去訪查的時候可以得到好我們詳細再跟委員會報告好那我們接下來還有一個很重要議題我就快速"},{"start":8406.803,"end":8411.727,"text":"學習歷程的亂象頻傳剛剛也非常多委員都提到了我在這邊要告訴部長銷量非常好可以看到圖片的中間那一份銷售出去了20萬份反映出學生的升學壓力真的很大甚至很可能有這種議員的都有受騙的風險請問部長代筆的亂象我想接下來要有很多的機制去遏止這個歪風"},{"start":8436.886,"end":8451.054,"text":"但我想接下來還有非常多的內容都應該要就教育部長有沒有調查過學生沒有意願上傳就學歷程的履歷我們的這個格式也非常的受限我想接下來要讓部長知道我們現在的我最後一個問題請教部長從這個學生上傳學習履歷可以上傳的這個影片的大小"},{"start":8463.08,"end":8483.073,"text":"10MB 請問10MB可以傳幾秒鐘的影片這部分我跟委員報告因為這個過程其實大家一直 包含教育部也跟第一線的教育職同仁來做討論當時會有一些規範就是不要造成 又是無限大啦 多多益善"},{"start":8483.553,"end":8489.079,"text":"所以當時在這上面一直也比較強調我們有一些甚至是一些叫做限制主要也比較希望像那個這個有關多元學習歷程心得的表現會有制度上的限制就是希望學生真正把那個成果歷程做比較"},{"start":8502.332,"end":8518.16,"text":"謝謝部長我們來看一下學生實際上使用的狀況就是非常的糟糕現在已經低達30%的人上船高達60幾%的人都不願意使用到高山所以我想這個檔案的格式檔案的大小"},{"start":8519.06,"end":8535.076,"text":"應該要再增加2020年從文件檔的2MB提升到4MB各位可以想像一下4MB的文件檔PDF Word檔到底能放多少東西影音是10MB 10MB我可以來跟部長分享一下720p 20秒"},{"start":8538.659,"end":8561.126,"text":"1080p不到9秒鐘我們還不要講說如果計時體系他有時候很棒的作品想要用4K很抱歉5秒鐘都不到現在一分鐘的影片就已經叫做短影音了啦所以我想請問部長教育部是否可以重新檢討更多元的學習立場的檔案格式及大小並且延應更彈性的方式讓學生們可以用更彈性的時間來上傳檔案"},{"start":8563.086,"end":8577.574,"text":"我跟委員報告一下第一個就是教育部其實一直不斷的在做有關學習歷程當然製作還有相關傳送等等的這些事項也一直比較希望越來越盡興我想請用詞詢的機會向部長提出學習歷程的資安問題以及同學準備的學習歷程可能遭遇到的問題請教育部對今天提出的問題慎重的檢討改善保障同學們的升學的權益"},{"start":8591.082,"end":8591.382,"text":"剛剛有說到高達20%"},{"start":8609.628,"end":8609.828,"text":"拜訪資料可被接受"},{"start":8625.399,"end":8649.976,"text":"還有最近很多第一屆課綱的學生都出來會呼籲的意思是其實他們參與學校在徵審的時候老師們其實跟學生的互動反過來那才是最真實啦如果你一切都人家操刀結果一問三不知大概自己給自己就結束了我想108課綱導入這個機制也就表示大家都很重視啦也超達20%還有很多的學生老師們非常的重視請麻煩再重新檢討一下謝謝"},{"start":8655.433,"end":8659.126,"text":"謝謝部長也謝謝各位委員那我們現在就是休息五分鐘好不好好"},{"start":8682.058,"end":8682.642,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8963.285,"end":8963.405,"text":"謝謝主席部長"},{"start":8979.868,"end":9005.304,"text":"你好部長我想問一下就是關於特教法的問題因為其實我們當然這個從去年928其實都已經有特別公佈了就是在我們的特教助理員我們希望能夠提供提就是能夠提升他們的薪資跟他們的一些福利跟待遇那我想在今年的時候其實我也陸陸續續收到有一些在第一線的特教助理員他們其實"},{"start":9006.905,"end":9026.498,"text":"在這個部分其實他們還是會覺得有一點辛苦跟困難的一個地方在這裡也要跟部長這邊來說明做一個報告那當然其實我們希望就是他們的這個薪資尤其是在專任的特教助理員他們的薪資是不要低於3萬那這個部分我們現在是做到什麼樣的地步"},{"start":9027.839,"end":9049.828,"text":"謝謝委員關心有關特教：尤其特教助理員的這個議題我剛有報告特教法修法在去年通過之後那教育部也是同步因為普特融合特教助理員會是孩子跟老師最重要很重要的支持點所以也同步提出一個4年的這樣的一個政變企劃這個4年是從113學年度8月1號開始"},{"start":9053.51,"end":9056.733,"text":"經費也都籌編了這個經費我跟你們報告112年大概是6億多那113年因為要執行這個計畫這是4年的計畫總共光113年就增加了4億多了所以現在目前113在特教助理員的這部分是達到10億多我講的是從total"},{"start":9075.012,"end":9088.183,"text":"每一年專任的部分會增加400位逐年就增加到1600位在薪資的部分我跟委員報告專任的部分目前我們用10級的來做規劃10級這個要點會定下來第一級大概就從3萬1000多開始起跳逐年按照他的表現跟考核"},{"start":9098.371,"end":9107.999,"text":"最終可以到達將近3萬7這是我們目前初步在專任人員上面的規劃因為現在的月薪是如果我們所說是希望從3萬1開始那這個時薪合算下來大概是183塊"},{"start":9114.063,"end":9127.452,"text":"但是我們就104的一個他們的利益銀行的統計現在大部分的畢業生大學畢業生他們進入到的職場他們的平均的時薪其實也已經來到194塊錢也就是說他們的月薪資大概是3萬2到3萬3"},{"start":9133.195,"end":9146.684,"text":"因為特教助理員他是一個非常辛苦的工作我們大家都知道就是要支援每一班那他的人數其實也有限我們除了招募困難以外其實留人也是非常不容易您覺得3萬1這個誘因存在嗎我跟委員報告因為在實況裡面22個縣市的差異非常的大那從去年我們處理讓一般"},{"start":9156.85,"end":9163.975,"text":"國中小的代理老師的那個已經走向全國一致的這樣的經驗跟基礎那這一次也比較希望透過我們現在要點的訂定跟手冊上能夠跟縣市已經持續的會商希望在8月1號能夠讓各縣市大家不要出現落差我是覺得還有必要再做一些那如果委員這個是新的機制因為相較過往"},{"start":9181.067,"end":9181.367,"text":"這是屬於專任的部份"},{"start":9198.722,"end":9217.42,"text":"當然另外其實還有所謂的部分工時的特教助理員那部分工時的特教助理員我更覺得有一點點那個門檻其實是非常非常之高的啦我們舉例來講當然其實我們當然有這個幫他們調整的一個美意在但是以所謂的部分工時的特教助理員"},{"start":9218.041,"end":9241.822,"text":"你們還要規定說希望能夠具有經驗者的薪資服務滿1400個小時基本的工資增加5%對不對這是我們定下來的那如果真的就用這個標準來算的話其實他等於一天如果是4個小時他必須要工作350天將近快一整年的一個時間累計下來大概1.75個學年度"},{"start":9243.784,"end":9260.146,"text":"但是他的整個所有的時薪其實大概平均下來還不到現在我們的112就是我們的勞動部公佈的部分工時勞工的平均時薪194塊錢那這個部分是不是更難找人"},{"start":9261.747,"end":9276.613,"text":"委員這部分我想因為我們現在有一個初步的草案那也在跟縣市在做這方面的溝通所以在有關這個待遇的這部分部分公使一方面當然我們會把時數服務給孩子的時數會相較以往再增加不會說這個是第一個我們會努力的"},{"start":9283.336,"end":9288.037,"text":"議員提到的實心及晉級的部分,我想委員給我們的一些建議,因為這樣還在討論的過程,我想這部分是不是可以我們再做一些再討論?因為其實大家應該都有在討論到像就是這幾天中正高中的事情,那我想這個特交助理員他們的留任還有就是他們的一個"},{"start":9305.742,"end":9324.309,"text":"議員﹚"},{"start":9324.929,"end":9324.949,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":9342.777,"end":9363.877,"text":"因為時薪不高或者是他們薪水不高他們除了特交助理員的工作以外他可能還要另外再去找其他的工作才能夠貼補自己的家用我覺得這個部分其實我們真的要好好的再來討論這部分謝謝委員的提醒我想如果適用勞基法的這些我們服務的人員他有一個勞基法的基礎的規範"},{"start":9364.718,"end":9365.379,"text":"因為如果不反映跟消防可能真的領不到薪水"},{"start":9383.459,"end":9385.761,"text":"委員提到的有關新知的請您發放的這部分我想我也請國教署這邊在這方面能夠在要點裡面把它律定來比較好"},{"start":9410.321,"end":9422.246,"text":"我相信大家也都一直提到所謂的這個多元發展這個其實是我們教育部對學生的一些美意但是其實真的執行到這些日子下來其實我們會發現學習歷程檔案對於"},{"start":9425.247,"end":9448.439,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":9450.121,"end":9467.618,"text":"所以一般我應該說通則因為我們說學測以外的50%或50%以上這是由學校自己因為他會有好幾種不同的可能要甄選學生的方式所以他並不是完全每個學校都唯一"},{"start":9467.978,"end":9487.278,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":9487.458,"end":9512.762,"text":"就是不到六成的一個教授其實這是透過方船教育他們所做出來的一些調查就是六成的教授不到六成的教授他們認為其實是沒有辦法去揪出所謂的是代寫的還是學生自己寫的那相對的來說如果是資源稍微比較不充足的孩子們他們其實沒有辦法去做這麼漂亮的學習歷程的時候對他們來講是不是真的就失去了求學的公平性"},{"start":9513.882,"end":9521.208,"text":"這一點我就跟委員報告在大學選材其實不只是看學測成績也不只是看剛才談到的早期的我們說備審資料因為備審資料跟學籍歷程檔案其實他是有同樣在推爭當中"},{"start":9531.135,"end":9533.859,"text":"除了疫情期間有稍微做了一些因為防疫的問題否則現在各大學都還是會有跟學生面對面的"},{"start":9547.197,"end":9562.171,"text":"因為推薦這個其實只是升學管道之一不是唯一啦那這種情況如果說不能夠讓學生有多元表現學校也有多元參賽他就完全不叫推薦了"},{"start":9562.791,"end":9584.657,"text":"所以最後很可能就回歸到還是學生學習考試成績唯一這個我想一定會再回到過往的所以現在三個我給教育部一個小小的建議好不好既然這個拉到20%其實對於家長或是孩子來講其實這個門檻是稍微有點高他必須要投入更多的心血那如果我們把這20%學習歷程的過程我們20%稍微往下調"},{"start":9588.178,"end":9605.236,"text":"是不是有機會可以讓很多家長跟孩子他們也能夠減輕一些壓力因為有家長跟我反應就是說剛考完學測他的孩子本來應該在百分之前20其實功課是好的可是接下來他說他是痛苦的開始因為開始有繁星有分科考試如果同級分還要啟動所謂的超額篩選這對他們來講其實壓力負擔變大了"},{"start":9609.62,"end":9611.722,"text":"我想一些意見當然會持續地收拾滾動但有一個概念前提因為大學招生這件事情在大學法裡面原來這是學校還是要有空間否則就是最簡單的"},{"start":9625.555,"end":9645.742,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":9646.242,"end":9648.524,"text":"我真的想要問一下我們的學生輔導法其實第一條的一個條件內容其實就是在於維護孩子學生的身心健全跟他們的全能發展"},{"start":9672.583,"end":9694.342,"text":"我想就是在學輔法其實大家最關注的一個焦點大概就是所謂的專任的輔導人員的配置的部分我們過去可能是用班級數但是因為現在少子化的關係其實每一個學期每一個我們全年度的班級數都在做變動但是被輔導的學生其實人數是不斷的一直在增加當中"},{"start":9695.323,"end":9719.469,"text":"我想這個部分其實有時候可能到了每年的7月這些輔導人員都會擔心說我會不會因為班級數減少結果我沒工作這幾點再來我輔導的一些個案跟我本來其實很信任我的可是他們也因為這個部分要被調動所以變得我輔導的個案已經被中斷了對輔導被輔導的孩子來講是很大的一個損失那我覺得這個部分我們再來研議好不好"},{"start":9720.329,"end":9724.432,"text":"我請要回應一下因為如果以學生輔導法關係到專業人員兩部分高中以下當然有一個就是輔導專任教師這個是按照規模持續這幾年也都會逐步的增補而且人數是相當龐大我也提前讓小學再提前在116學年度就能夠聘任完"},{"start":9744.404,"end":9763.472,"text":"委員關切的是專輔人員就包含其他各類的這方面這次在學生輔導法的檢討裡面確實有在這上面做了剛才委員所提到這樣的一個比較大的方向那大學校院也就是用學生比所以目前就是從1比1200到1比900所以大學就是已經朝這個方式來我們再加油謝謝部長"},{"start":9774.921,"end":9775.061,"text":"羅廷偉 羅委員"},{"start":9790.965,"end":9809.1,"text":"委員好部長你好謝謝我想這幾天大家都非常關心我們普特融合尤其又最近發生了這樣子的一個案例那我想其實就我所知道我個人看到這樣的影片我覺得當時那個老師這樣子的一個回應狀況是已經盡力的很得宜"},{"start":9809.921,"end":9827.996,"text":"所以我覺得他這樣子算是已經很努力的在維持現場的一個狀況那我想融合教育是一個大方向也是一個我們既有的一個政策但是我想部長您這邊有掌握到我們類似這樣子的一個中重度的一個情緒障礙特教生他的掌握人數大概有多少你有掌握嗎"},{"start":9829.336,"end":9853.695,"text":"委員詳細的數據應該是3000多位好 署長這邊給我他們有數據啦大概3000多位沒關係沒關係就大概我們會後都可以再討論更精準的一個數字但我想針對這樣子的一個可能會有可能會導致現場的教學產生問題那我想不只是特教生的一個權益我們一定會維護那一般生他們能不能持續在更穩定的有這樣子一個上課的過程"},{"start":9854.676,"end":9875.738,"text":"我覺得這也是我們要關注的所以在上一次你們有提到特效法的修法要提供這樣子113年到116年總共有1600位的那是專任的特效助理員那每年大概有400位分散到全國那一個縣市分到幾位這個部分數量你覺得夠嗎"},{"start":9877.035,"end":9877.936,"text":"委員一定聽過有很多家長有這個心聲"},{"start":9892.168,"end":9892.188,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":9922.388,"end":9950.336,"text":"大概有220位如果以這次的計畫我想每個委員都很關心包括特教員他們的一個薪資﹑人數其實這個部分都值得我們再深深的探討那沒關係我先大概先這樣問因為今天時間有限另外想再詢問一下就是2月下旬所發生的亞洲卑南藍急訓的一個事件其中一個爭議是保險的一個部分那目前體育署你組保險國家隊目前辦理的狀況如何還需要多少的時間"},{"start":9951.882,"end":9971.468,"text":"這部分我跟委員報告,確實從這一次我們劉征隊長他在這一次的讓我們對有關籃球國家代表隊有好多的這個制度有做了一些瞭解跟做改變那這當中有關保險的這部分確實我也請署長親自的跟協會還有球員的工會做瞭解"},{"start":9976.169,"end":9991.613,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":9991.613,"end":9991.633,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":10012.102,"end":10014.305,"text":"外籍優秀的球員來做規劃能夠加入這是3個目前體育署政治部長積極在處理那下一個我們目前有關籃球的組隊應該會在11月前所以我們會以這個時間做一個努力目標"},{"start":10028.183,"end":10030.064,"text":"我們會朝這個目標來努力因為這個確實國家支持國家的選手國家隊的選手本來就理所當然我們一起來關注體育"},{"start":10048.277,"end":10048.617,"text":"您知道王健宣部長嗎?"},{"start":10067.35,"end":10087.284,"text":"王部長我知道對不起他曾經在民間推出一個撿回珍珠計劃你知道嗎哪一個民間推出過一個撿回珍珠計劃撿回珍珠計劃我知道王部長很提及只是他計劃名稱我沒那麼熟悉他就是補助貧困的學生繼續學業"},{"start":10088.305,"end":10100.551,"text":"每位學生高中三年的學費住宿費由學校負擔愛心人士給予每位學生三年的生活補助我想這個部分我想跟你帶到的是我想台灣有沒有類似這樣子的一個計畫"},{"start":10102.097,"end":10120.872,"text":"跟委員報告,我想民間有這樣的善心,包括王部長這樣去認養相關他們認為有需要的這些措施,我想確實有機會那政府這邊,大概我也跟委員報告,因為偏鄉弱勢的孩子一直也是我們努力協助的重點"},{"start":10121.673,"end":10128.777,"text":"所以當時偏鄉為什麼會有設置這個偏鄉學校發展條例也就是說因為這些確實是資源不夠那對個別事項上我也跟委員報告像我們執行夜光天使方案或執行午餐不足午餐不足一年委員知道大概是用21億的經費來協助這些困難的那還有一個就是學習弱勢就是說他課業有時候跟不上的這一方面"},{"start":10149.631,"end":10163.927,"text":"政府大概是會用不同面向大概比較不會說所住單一的學生部長沒關係那其實就是要跟你帶到夜光天使的計畫我想目前辦理的狀況我覺得有沒有什麼困境您大概知道嗎"},{"start":10165.001,"end":10192.504,"text":"因為當時夜光天使是鎖定在12歲以下的孩子啦因為12歲以下依我們依法萬一爸爸媽媽比如單親啦隔代 隔代下游還好可能阿公阿嬤還有照顧現在怕的是爸爸媽媽或爸爸媽媽忙於工作根本孩子就單獨回家了我點出問題點啦您聽聽看喔夜光天使的計畫我覺得本席是非常的支持那我想這些孩童呢我覺得寒暑假有沒有同樣的"},{"start":10193.285,"end":10211.34,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":10211.42,"end":10235.487,"text":"委員這個如果要再試推我們可以來研議但是我跟委員報告因為現在我剛才跟你們說政府會比較用幾種措施應應不同的需求像暑假期間除了我們本來就有那個叫夏日熱血的方案就是在幫助說你可以在暑假只是他可能沒有辦法委員說他是全天候但是暑假就不讓他空白"},{"start":10236.527,"end":10238.928,"text":"另外有沒有可能吸引夜光天使點燈專案計畫能夠擴展到國中?"},{"start":10253.232,"end":10281.73,"text":"這個就是我剛才為什麼說因為他從97年開始推那時候我在部裡頭服務也瞭解當時為什麼會鎖定12歲以下因為這個小小孩真的需要多一些包含照顧這件事因為沒有大人在家把他放在家這個也怪但是12歲一直也是我們在想說孩子可能對於居家因為現在你說國中大概就超過這個我們如果用法規來講偶像法大概是以12歲"},{"start":10282.591,"end":10302.964,"text":"我的建議是希望有機會可以擴展到國中來規劃那個就是我跟委員報告就是說為什麼我說我們用不同的比如說他是因為吃飯的問題他是課業要協助的問題我們有幾種措施事實上在幫助這些有需要的孩子如果高國中以上的孩子甚至比較大的孩子"},{"start":10303.724,"end":10306.326,"text":"我想本席非常支持這樣的計畫並且認為一定要力推我想教育部應該把資源放在這裏面而不是只放一小部分就是所謂的12歲以下"},{"start":10326.539,"end":10344.879,"text":"因為推動這樣子的一個計畫我覺得國中生他下課的時候如果他沒有地方去他更有可能被有心人士吸收造成身心的發展安全的疑慮我想這個部分是我們可以去重視的一個議題所以我想在這邊特別提出那這邊跟您做一個分享好嗎"},{"start":10346.019,"end":10349.462,"text":"謝謝委員這個關切 如果可行我們是不是從部分來試辦"},{"start":10375.399,"end":10402.137,"text":"好 那當然有機會我當然是爭取台中可以先行事辦那另外想跟你提問一下公私立高中指弱勢學生納營養午餐的補助範疇我想依據中央補助地方政府的午餐營養午餐的致用要點我們可以看到目前各縣市政府辦理弱勢學生的一個營養午餐僅限於公立的國民中小學還有完全中學的國中部"},{"start":10402.637,"end":10422.351,"text":"我想部長112學年度第二學期只要具有中華民國國民的高級中等學校均不必繳納學費考量營養午餐對於我們孩童的身心發展我覺得這也蠻重要的是不是有這個機會對於我剛剛所提到的公私立高中子弱勢學生納營養午餐這個補助範疇也能夠來做考量"},{"start":10426.254,"end":10450.9,"text":"委員報告如果是有關弱勢學生餐費的這部分這部分我們來做一個審酌目前確實有部分是納進來但倒不是全面你可以評估看看嗎我們來評估一下因為離島等等我們有但是這個跟委員如果因為我們大家都最近在關心午餐專法因為高中值的用餐型態真的很多元"},{"start":10451.6,"end":10467.785,"text":"委員大概也知道跟國中小的孩子不太一樣如果是在弱勢孩子的協助這方面我想我們來做一個評估但是如果屬於在整體性的這方面我想高中有好多學校比較像大學的那種形態"},{"start":10468.385,"end":10495.89,"text":"但是就像我剛剛所說的公司立了高中職都不用繳納學費了我想營養午餐有這個機會能夠納入弱勢學子的部分是我們可以來做一個評估的會後我們再做一個深度的看看另外剩30幾秒我想跟您分享一下因為我本身擔任過議員我們台中市議會在審核教育局的一個預算的時候發現每年編列大概將近1000萬的一個預算來補助孩童的課桌椅那整個要換完大概要3億"},{"start":10496.63,"end":10498.833,"text":"委員這個當然以教育部都是跟縣市是共同在做協助預算有限"},{"start":10511.812,"end":10512.593,"text":"安全有關第一優先"},{"start":10532.773,"end":10533.213,"text":"謝謝主席 請潘部長"},{"start":10566.114,"end":10580.411,"text":"部長早安等我們第11屆的第一個會期第一次質詢就面臨到我們教育部在這邊本席要先肯定我們教育部對於高中職免學費以及補助私立大專院校學費這個政策"},{"start":10583.175,"end":10587.159,"text":"司令大專院校的部分是從注冊單上面就直接的扣除減免這個是讓有就學孩子的家庭非常有感的一個協助減輕了司令學校孩子跟家庭的這個壓力讓念書也不再是壓力讓家長跟孩子都能夠"},{"start":10601.596,"end":10601.856,"text":"謝謝委員 這個也是總統還有我們總統當選人 賴副總統這邊"},{"start":10621.363,"end":10631.374,"text":"他們在這上面也給教育部有全力的支持是是是非常的感謝吼那講到孩子的壓力這邊吼本席要來關心在去年就已經在大專院校辦理的心理調適架那經過呢青年學生團體的聯署跟宣導呃宣傳吶對不起那教育部在去年已經有說明喔"},{"start":10641.485,"end":10641.985,"text":"是根文報告齁"},{"start":10662.904,"end":10678.027,"text":"因為委員大人關心我們高中子這部分那大學的這部分目前已經有40多校他們已經開始在執行了那我們也藉由學校推行的一些經驗教育部也含發了一個調適架身心調適架的一些指引那我相信後續更多的大學會更快的展開"},{"start":10686.369,"end":10690.891,"text":"高中高職的這個階段我們過去其實已經開始做很多意見的收集目前掌握到大概有43所42所學校會從3月就開始來試辦希望藉由他們的試辦能夠幫我們收集更多執行上的一些意見所以剛才署長這邊說有42家的學校有表達他們有試辦的意願對"},{"start":10711.88,"end":10714.782,"text":"會從這邊開始就是說有他們辦的經驗來開始推廣嗎?對對因為大學當然空間跟孩子也更大啦那高中子有時候家長啊學校會有一些擔心或等所以我就藉由這一次42所需要的參與那我們來把這個經驗累積之後會預計相關的意見我們來收集對對對希望在8月我們能夠全國在這方面能夠同步展開"},{"start":10736.92,"end":10739.082,"text":"我們希望說有這樣子的心理調適假我們可以進展來協助孩子當他們覺得有壓力他們心情狀態不太平衡的時候讓他們可以適時的休息適時的放鬆調整過後的狀態希望可以能夠更專注來學習這個是我們的初衷"},{"start":10766.604,"end":10770.445,"text":"所以這個部分也請教育部這邊在這42個學校事辦之後我們了解狀況並很積極地檢視這些成效那收集相關的意見好 這方面我想這42個學校都是有意願而且他們也應該更積極在嘗試所以如果有好的這些推動的經驗能夠做基礎我相信在全國500多所學校高中子在進行的時候應該會更順利"},{"start":10793.493,"end":10798.934,"text":"接下來跟部長討論一下我國高障人才培育相關的政策那過去本席在質詢的時候也提出過我國STEM的育育人才大量減少這個問題那在這邊本席也先肯定教育部我們也沒有積極的在辦理目前有核定18座重點產業的人才培育基地這裡面包含有半導體智慧智障人工智慧以及電動車等等相關的產業就是未來會有大發展也集區這樣的人才的一些重點產業"},{"start":10821.92,"end":10825.964,"text":"教育部合計每年超過1000個外加招生名額：並與產業合作來攜手培育重點產業所需要的人才目前6間大專院校的半導體學院已經在112學年度開始招生請問部長那其他在半導體之外的這些其他領域的研究學院有預計的招生的期程嗎"},{"start":10845.321,"end":10874.17,"text":"公文報告如果就研究學院的十一校十二個學院目前都在招生都已招生了因為有些是成立的比較慢的也在做籌備招生中他們的運作在這方面就教育部所掌握到的在從他們招生的競爭程度就可以知道確實吸引了很多優秀的這些有意願的學生想參與"},{"start":10874.79,"end":10881.516,"text":"這些名額呢我們一千多人呢就是陸陸續續的其實都有招生進來了那我想請教一下半導體學院在112年合併的招生人數是655人那我們的名額就大概佔了一半了一半多那也就是說剩下的其他領域的招生人數大概也只有跟半導體學院總和差不多那這樣子我們的名額是夠的嗎"},{"start":10899.879,"end":10903.521,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個也要謝謝我們大院委員會這邊的全力支持那個產學創新條例其實是國內一個非常突破性的一個法律能夠把它解開過去我們對學校有好多好多的限制那當時教育部這邊也提到因為這是一個高階科技技術人才的養成所以當時在名額上我們就是以碩博為主"},{"start":10925.589,"end":10943.473,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":10943.593,"end":10944.975,"text":"部長的意思就是說相關的領域的人才培育後續也有可能再繼續增加?"},{"start":10959.783,"end":10986.728,"text":"委員指的是其他領域嗎對領域這部分一定要大家有共識因為當時就是以我們大院當時提的就是以重點產業領域為主並不是所有的科技目前我們大概是7個重點領域7大重點領域除了半導體循環經濟智慧科技等等那當中也包含金融國際傳播還有政治經濟部長當然"},{"start":10987.268,"end":11007.096,"text":"我們對於這個高階的這些人才培育我們都非常重視因爲我們台灣其實我們的科技領域的研究一直在世界上都是名列前茅那也希望說我們教育部能夠很積極的來辦理這些相關的高科技領域人才的培育讓我們台灣可以一直有這樣的優勢那如果說我們的產業界有這樣的需求也希望說我們在我們的產學這三方面都能夠因應這樣子的需求來做調整來做檢討"},{"start":11016.3,"end":11016.32,"text":"閱讀委員"},{"start":11046.22,"end":11076.22,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":11077.241,"end":11099.953,"text":"對對對而且那個更廣而且那個部分也包含對於現在產業在職的進修所以我想教育部是以這樣的兩軌能夠對於高階技術人才的培養還有現在產業所需要的這種集戰力的人力會以這樣的方向來進行會持續澳門會持續收集學校在執行面的一些意見如果有需要再做檢討進行我們會持續來"},{"start":11101.814,"end":11128.043,"text":"謝謝部長提到我們高教人才的培運剛才其實有很多委員都有關心到這邊來跟部長討論我們很多委員所關心的我們要進入高教來這個相關的門檻也就是學習歷程檔案近日有學生團體指出學習歷程檔案現在有商品化的問題本席辦公室這邊也上網找一下其實隨便你在網路上賣場就可以找到學習歷程檔案的代寫服務"},{"start":11129.023,"end":11149.874,"text":"上面還聲稱說能夠提供任門學校各個科系的代學服務甚至還能幫你避開同科系的志願科系的學長姐避免尷尬那教育部目前你們有回應就是說已經還請各大學必須尊重招生倫理但是很明顯的在賣場上提供服務的是已經在大學就讀的學生並不是教職員"},{"start":11150.854,"end":11158.303,"text":"那這樣子的狀況目前部長你們教育部有什麼方式可以來避免學習歷程答案有這樣子外包的情勢發生"},{"start":11159.645,"end":11181.718,"text":"是,跟委員報告因為韓請大學校院為什麼要正式嚴正的要求因為這個是招生的單位哪有招生的單位還在辦這些可能跟升學有關的這些收費的梯隊這個是因為從教育部主管相關的學校我們一定要把這個立場跟要求很明確那現在坊間確實也有一些補習班我們一些平台就藉由可能家長忙"},{"start":11193.703,"end":11217.268,"text":"我跟委員報告因為我們也一直持續有在瞭解這些可能的廣告如果一旦查到也會儘快要求一定要下架這些廣告但是後續再查處如果發現的我也要跟委員報告其實為什麼學生這部分我們還是要不斷的提醒待寫這個如果一旦在真實的過程當中被查到這直接就取消資格"},{"start":11218.268,"end":11238.916,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11238.916,"end":11253.563,"text":"部長您有提到就是說在學生這一方面我們也會來宣導說如果你是用這樣的方式取得學習歷程你交出去之後被查獲之後可能就會取消你的入學資格這個是非常嚴重也讓學生知道這個嚴重性對學校學生這個要清楚"},{"start":11254.684,"end":11276.951,"text":"我特別是希望提醒教育部你們要格外的重視學習歷程檔案這個商品化的這個現象其實我們當初設置的初衷是希望在學生製作學習歷程的這個過程裡面他去聊聊自己的志向那也同時提供大學有來入學學生這個判斷跟依據那如果說這個已經走到這已經商品化已經走到這樣子的已經是一個偏頗的一個發展的時候呢我們針對這個學習歷程檔案外包這個現象我們就要非常的注重來檢討"},{"start":11284.633,"end":11286.494,"text":"教育部,您如何提供相關的防範措施,您在一個月提供書面報告給本辦公室,可以嗎?這部分我們在時間內提供給委員,做整理後提供參考"},{"start":11301.081,"end":11303.643,"text":"本席記得在去年這個時候我也質詢過部長學測的時候受到廣播聲干擾的問題當時本席也要求教育部進行檢討並且要確實的建立考場監考的SOP但是今年又有狀況發生了就是學生在考試的時候提前響鈴提前響鈴之後監考人員他的做法不一樣有的是直接收回試卷有的是繼續作答"},{"start":11325.94,"end":11331.282,"text":"當然大考中心針對這個狀況他有提出就是以加分的這個方式來補償但是在第一場的考試學生第一場考試遇到這種狀況其實後來他考試的心情都會受到影響學生的成績也會受到影響而且加分這個部分是對其他的成績其他學生的成績也不公平有這樣子的疑慮所以這個不是第一次發生"},{"start":11348.226,"end":11352.047,"text":"每一次學測都發生這樣子的問題表示我們的大考中心對這樣的事情沒有很嚴謹他們有沒有確實的建立起這個SOP就是在監測監考的時候如果遇到狀況應該怎麼樣來應對這個部分部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":11363.951,"end":11367.472,"text":"市長你聽到林曉不是先確定時間嗎不是直接收卷嗎我跟委員報告這個因為過去3年真的大家為了疫情緊繃我發現這一次出的差錯是在學校一個單獨的學校設定"},{"start":11392.898,"end":11397.054,"text":"設定那個鐘響的時間少了一個double check就不會有這個問題"},{"start":11398.459,"end":11399.66,"text":"所以部長你也了解到說這個問題非常嚴重那已經連續兩年出問題了希望你們要謹慎的面對這個問題"},{"start":11426.573,"end":11427.093,"text":"接下來我們請林倩琦委員"},{"start":11465.005,"end":11469.984,"text":"主席部長您好我是不是可以先請潘部長上台"},{"start":11473.411,"end":11501.985,"text":"委員好部長首先我要跟您恭喜作為我們在新北前後都有為新北的市民的貢獻的這樣一個過去的經驗那剛才我聽到萬美玲委員向你道賀那你應該是中華民國史上在教育部擔任部長也算是很長一段時間的部長之一至少所以這個部分我先向您恭喜那很辛苦了"},{"start":11503.265,"end":11530.917,"text":"今天我站在這邊不僅作為一個中華民國的立法委員也是一個對於整個體育跟運動產業很有熱忱而且很有期待的一個中華民國公民所以今天我相信在過去我們的經驗上應該可以共同來開啟一個對話的窗口然後一起來推動對於福國立民的政策與行動"},{"start":11532.197,"end":11556.884,"text":"首先我想先跟部長這邊來探討一下一個帆船運動那我也知道最近我們有很多政策就是針對我們這個福爾摩沙這樣一個島嶼我們說我們是一個海洋國家但是我想我們也知道我們可能在海洋的這個事務及海洋運動的推動上可能有一些我們可以在更加把勁的一個地方"},{"start":11557.404,"end":11557.805,"text":"OP女第6次"},{"start":11587.537,"end":11609.821,"text":"各位你們看可以從這個在海上的帆船運動跟後面那個停泊在這是巴黎的那個那個那個基地巴黎奧運的這個帆船比賽是在馬賽那船種應該是接下來這個應該是巴黎奧運過去稱為雷射這是"},{"start":11612.066,"end":11635.556,"text":"臺灣唯一進入奧運的這個風浪板那這個就是在奧運的比賽當中那個女性在開的這個イルカ6那過去摧毀雷射那這個是樂觀船小朋友在開的起航時間12點10分12點10分Course O"},{"start":11640.985,"end":11653.684,"text":"不知道部長看到這個畫面有什麼樣一個想法本席認為這個夢想一直是他追求的那自從這位公民開始學習帆船"},{"start":11654.761,"end":11671.722,"text":"之後呢在台灣我們所碰到的一個問題就是找不到教練所以從這個不管是宜蘭到新北然後一直到這個東部然後到了高雄到了屏東最後到了西班牙"},{"start":11672.583,"end":11692.976,"text":"那好不容易他認為今年有機會參加在澳洲比賽的一個MASTER GAMES在阿德雷德這個城市比賽的一個MASTER GAMES那他很期待在今年的2月1號能夠在澳洲的海域上比賽這個帆船那你想他2月1號你知道他2月1號在哪嗎他2月1號就在立法院的走在立法院的就職紅毯上"},{"start":11701.502,"end":11721.536,"text":"所以這個帶有奧運夢的這位1900代表中華台北的這樣一個號誌的帆船是我自己奧運這個賽的這樣一個期待當然我們相信在這個過程當中會有很多的困難"},{"start":11722.597,"end":11725.003,"text":"剛才我聽到好幾位委員對於我們整個的團體的這個賽事籃球有很多的責難"},{"start":11732.57,"end":11743.974,"text":"作為一個曾經流浪在台灣全島的帆船孤兒的我心中有很多同理跟心情所以與其我們責難他們我們有沒有可能一起來推動這個事務我們針對這個內容上有什麼可以補強的我們繼續在未來的奧運好好的努力跟期待我相信這個部分本席也會繼續追蹤"},{"start":11758.4,"end":11774.236,"text":"當然我們期待最終的我們就是想要在奧運上能夠展現奧運的精神追求卓越永不放棄我們知道鄭署長也是在這個部分非常的投入據我的瞭解您是非常認真而且做得很好的"},{"start":11774.696,"end":11774.716,"text":"議員提議"},{"start":11804.856,"end":11829.212,"text":"接下來的這個世界賽來做好好的準備我相信在2026年他們應該是非常具有潛力的所以我想這個部分我會提供貴部一個非常具體的訓練計畫然後我期待在下一次的世界賽及跟奧運能夠看到我們女足的團體賽那我相信這樣一個風氣一定能夠帶起我們中華民國在整島的一個運動魂"},{"start":11831.634,"end":11854.552,"text":"這樣才有可能不僅我們有非常精英的追求卓越的奧林匹克選手那我們也會讓這樣子的運動帶動全民那我們就會成為一個真正的強國我期待能夠看到這樣子的一個可能性當然了其實我去年在我已經到了巴黎奧運帆船比賽及足球比賽的這個所在地馬賽兩年了那我去現堪兩年了"},{"start":11858.935,"end":11885.542,"text":"所以我想請教一下鄭部長對不起鄭署長我想部長您也可以關注這件事署長我們對於2024奧運目前的期待跟這個評估您可以給我做一個回應嗎就是我們會拿多少金多少銅多少銀我想這個應該在8年前的選訓當中就已經確認了吧或者是已經有一點概念了所以今年您的一個預估呢"},{"start":11886.195,"end":11904.807,"text":"報告委員基本上我們在賽前也通常不會給選手太大的壓力所以我這邊也不變給選手一個很明確的數字但是當然我們的目標給我們的競技組跟國訓中心自我的目標就是要突破那個東京奧運的兩面好在2021年比賽的2020年東京奧運那我們是二贏"},{"start":11910.591,"end":11927.486,"text":"兩斤兩斤然後四銀六銅嗎兩斤四銀六銅那我想今年我們應該是可以超越這個目標我們盡力而為好的那肯定拿2028的奧運就算那個很遺憾的奧運夢我不知道還有沒有機會追上"},{"start":11928.966,"end":11947.014,"text":"我也期待在風帆的賽事上,我們在未來可以有很卓越的成績。我們期待不要缺席,至少先達到不要缺席,因為目前能夠進入奧運的大概只有風帆的一位張浩選手,那很榮幸的昨天還碰到了他。"},{"start":11949.216,"end":11959.988,"text":"我期待我們一起為中華民國的運動在世界的展現上我相信我們有絕對的潛力而且只要我們的團體賽事籃球、排球、足球都能夠進入資格的話對於我們奧運的成績應該"},{"start":11966.014,"end":11966.915,"text":"我們期待所有的船型都會看到中華台北的旗幟飛揚在奧運場上"},{"start":11989.25,"end":12008.25,"text":"接下來我想聊一個話題。大家知不知道我是原住民阿美族的人。我也來自私立學校。所以今天我想就原住民專班跟私立學校退場機制來跟部長這邊做一個交流。"},{"start":12009.191,"end":12009.331,"text":"原住民專班"},{"start":12040.751,"end":12059.416,"text":"上個禮拜我跟貴部要相關的資料那貴部叫我們去查勞動部那這個資料是什麼呢就是原住民專班截至112年畢業的學生在就業市場裡面典型跟非典型各有多少比例就是從原住民專班出來的那在就業市場"},{"start":12060.196,"end":12089.206,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":12089.586,"end":12114.683,"text":"原住民的休學率當然是9.3比7.3這邊是我們算過所以在學的時候是不是可以針對這個部分去做相關的了解然後我們找出一個對策雖然我個人對於原住民專班一直有一種說不上來的感覺我一直覺得好像把我們圈養在一個地方然後圈養在一個框框裡當然利益良好"},{"start":12116.744,"end":12136.883,"text":"但是呢後來造就的一個狀況就是學校賺學費然後學生拿學位如果順利的話最後是教師賺終點費所以我相信去年這個檢討的平台應該了解師生筆可能有很大的一個問題但是這個長年一直沒辦法解決"},{"start":12137.924,"end":12166.407,"text":"那尤其是聘任原住民族的老師呢經常又用技術教師技術講師或是專案教師這樣子的一個不穩定而且可能有其他我們想各校都知道的一個狀況如果你在教育界所以雖然貴部在今年把原住民專班的這個經費又增加了但是他會不會是各校更多的一個提款機呢所以我請教一部"},{"start":12167.523,"end":12189.873,"text":"特別對原住民專班事實上應該為學生量身定做而不是為學校量身定做所以這個部分是不是可以有具體的檢討然後我們找出更好的方式來推動原住民族專班而且在典型跟非典型的就業上能夠讓大家充分的這個完備這樣子的一個平台好嗎"},{"start":12191.515,"end":12210.327,"text":"謝謝委員,這部分我跟委員補充一下,確實原民專班這幾年我們只把它列為在協助上的一個重點政策啦謝謝部長,我很快的一下,因為我來自私校,那如果沒有為私校是爭取一些權益,實在說不過去那當然教育部的退場機制,這個退場條例對私校的衝擊很大,那我先講一個個案就好"},{"start":12213.729,"end":12213.749,"text":"閱讀委員會議"},{"start":12232.643,"end":12259.499,"text":"協助的就是許多私校老師他要他找到更好的工作要離開的時候卻受到學校的罰則的影響在聘約裡面有這樣我這邊就有一個例子如果你們要的話很多私校有但我來的學校沒有因為我們是一個比較佛心的學校所以在這個部分是不是可以請教育部用一種方式一個行政命令或行政指導然後請私校不要這樣子做因為"},{"start":12260.359,"end":12260.419,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12279.741,"end":12308.66,"text":"而且非常具體來檢討那我也會隨時跟上這樣一個進度那最後呢就是我在1月25號看到我們的這個計時司有一則很棒的新聞就是我們未來要花52億來培育外國的學生然後在台灣大學設立了專案辦公室然後有政修科大在高雄明星科大應該在新竹吧但是那個名可能寫錯了昆山科大台南"},{"start":12310.281,"end":12332.232,"text":"有這幾個學校但是由臺灣大學成立專案辦公室52億的錢投入在這個外國人的身上那雖然我們有所謂缺工的問題可是缺工的問題我們可不可以透過經濟部來編列預算那這樣子的一個預算呢你拿十分之一給我們原住民那應該就有很大的效益尤其是這個班"},{"start":12333.866,"end":12359.609,"text":"我們目前教授的是STEM領域Science TechnologyEngineer跟Mathematics那我們都知道這是非常主流的課程那半導體這個是我們護國神山的一個產業還有金融領域八班那我們原住民有沒有可能在這裡面幫我們配件幾個專班不要變成中華民國的教育經費都在補助外國人"},{"start":12362.755,"end":12380.165,"text":"教育資源有不同面向的政策跟對象學生部長不好意思因為我們主席已經站起來了所以我非常尊重我們我們詳細的再用書面資料給委員做一個showing讓委員瞭解讓委員如果像剛剛對體育那個我很認真聽真的很感佩當時為了女主啊"},{"start":12381.966,"end":12382.907,"text":"對於我們的籃球也大家多點同理啦我在外面自己"},{"start":12404.619,"end":12418.468,"text":"謝謝,不用擔心,而且要提醒林委員我們未來還有70天可以質詢所以不是只有這12分鐘還可以好好大家繼續來共同來討論好不好,謝謝,謝謝部長接下來我們請林一錦委員謝謝召委,有請部長"},{"start":12430.949,"end":12442.982,"text":"首先本席想要先了解一下部長你小時候你年國小的時候你能作息你還記得回想一下你作息大概怎麼安排大概是幾點起床那幾點就寢你想一下"},{"start":12443.683,"end":12447.165,"text":"大概5、6點就起床,然後9點就會睡覺上個月有一個補習班在臉書貼出有一對兄妹的一週作息每天早上不到6點就起床要來練習寫習題之後就當然去國小上課放學後要在車上寫作業"},{"start":12465.257,"end":12486.439,"text":"隨後又馬上去補習班補數學補英文補完課之後又抽空在車上吃晚餐然後又繼續去練鋼琴練完琴之後再回家念英文所以11點半才上床睡覺那隔天又不到6點就起床"},{"start":12488.08,"end":12500.924,"text":"稍為算一算應該每天大約只睡6個半小時左右那這個貼文一出來其實引起很大的討論那很多人都想說哇 這個行程排那麼滿 這個真的是時間管理大師喔"},{"start":12502.885,"end":12503.206,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":12523.587,"end":12550.447,"text":"可是當然我們會想說國小其實在成長的階段那如果一天只睡6.5小時連醫生都說長期的睡眠不足會導致健康身心的發展會有影響那我是認為說這對兄妹的這種所謂的形成看起來好像也是現在全台灣多數的國小或國中生或高中生生活作息的加強版"},{"start":12551.588,"end":12573.64,"text":"也就是說很多我們現在台灣的家長都是望子成龍啊望女成鳳那學生或許也真的因為父母的要求對自己他也很有要求所以把今天每天的行程都塞得很滿可是根據2023年這個台灣兒福聯盟的調查報告我們台灣有九成以上的國高中生是每天睡不到八個小時"},{"start":12574.68,"end":12578.342,"text":"有37%是睡5到6個小時甚至有12.6%是睡不到5個小時如果比照美國國家睡眠基金會提到的建議睡眠時間"},{"start":12591.39,"end":12593.351,"text":"一天只睡6.5小時一定是不夠對不對?"},{"start":12615.675,"end":12623.665,"text":"在成長中的孩子絕對不夠年大人我認為如果第7個小時其實長期對身體健康應該是有負面的影響"},{"start":12624.706,"end":12653.631,"text":"對,所以現在我們已經延後高中生8點再到校嘛然後國小,國中小好像也禁止這個找自習考試那所以我想教部不曉得有沒有掌握就是說各校對於這個到校的時間喔或者是說找自習有沒有確實禁止考試這件事情不曉得他們執行率怎樣因為我這是各縣市政府的職責可是不曉得就教部有沒有掌握"},{"start":12656.212,"end":12678.841,"text":"張偉報告,確實剛才張偉用這個分享回饋到我們現在所提到的為什麼要讓當時高中學生有一個規範因為高中已經是比較大學區了很多孩子為了太早到不知道又提早更早所以當時也考慮到就是學生在學習還有身體發展休息等等的必要做這個政策"},{"start":12680.041,"end":12706.459,"text":"當時也才論到早上作息裡面為什麼不得用考試因為一旦考試學生就開始要面對更早所以這兩個的政策我想教育部以正式的函班要縣市跟學校來遵循當然這個執行之後我也請國教署可能持續注意因為這個基本上本來就是教學正常化裡面一個非常重要的基本的規範"},{"start":12708.32,"end":12732.78,"text":"當然就是說剛剛那個部長回答得很棒就是說我們確實是要讓孩子這個睡眠充足那除了啦我們當然這個其實家庭也有很大的因素就家長怎麼樣去配置孩子的生活所以除了怎麼透過就是說讓家長去敦促孩子睡眠充足之外就教育部是不是還有更精進的作為像說"},{"start":12734.341,"end":12738.343,"text":"怎樣宣導睡眠這個相關的這個健康教育啊或者輔導所謂的減輕壓力等等啦吼那我想這個還可以再討論可是我想要再跟您討論是說像這家補習班貼出這篇文章其實他是間接洩漏了學生的身份"},{"start":12753.85,"end":12773.949,"text":"我覺得這個其實對於這個助長好像這個國小生這個鐵人形成這種風氣我就好像在助長這個有這個疑慮在那這篇貼文他雖然好像有把這個孩子的這個臉有碼掉可是他去識別化沒有做整套為什麼"},{"start":12774.65,"end":12795.981,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":12796.001,"end":12796.621,"text":"您對這個貼文應該是非常有意見"},{"start":12825.418,"end":12853.422,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":12853.542,"end":12853.662,"text":"委員會長潘文忠"},{"start":12873.025,"end":12876.966,"text":"我想除了在相關縣市的業務單位的聯席匯報來做加強希望做一個規範跟督導那對於補習班如果違反這部分我們未來也會要求能夠依照這方面來做一個相關的查組因為這個確實是不當先不要說這個理念如何"},{"start":12895.652,"end":12896.112,"text":"巴黎奧運距離現在剩不到5個月"},{"start":12916.648,"end":12920.291,"text":"我相信署長一定會說我們代表隊已經準備好了我們也一定要有這樣的信心我們來回顧我們這個東京奧運就剛剛林委員有提到我們其實拿到兩金四銀六銅這是歷屆以來我們奧運最好的成績可是"},{"start":12938.708,"end":12965.217,"text":"當代表隊出發的時候發生選手搭乘經濟艙然後行政人員搭乘商戶艙這樣的爭議搞到當初的體育署長請辭喔那隔了一年才找到我們優秀的市中部長市中署長好那我們再來追溯其他的一些重大的一些國際賽的重大爭議我們來看2015年7月的世界青少"},{"start":12967.357,"end":12982.014,"text":"世界青少年田徑錦標賽我們的那個青少年的選手撐竿跳選手葉耀文人都到了南美洲的比賽地點才發現說竿子沒有送到所以他被迫棄賽也是全場唯一棄權的選手"},{"start":12983.856,"end":13007.006,"text":"還有一件也蠻嚴重的就是我們的亞洲貓王我們的體操選手唐家宏去年原本要出國參加一個世界盃的比賽那比賽前回到國訓中心他在比賽前其實在世大的練習都非常的OK那他去國訓中心去做一些行前測驗的時候發生了左腳阿基里斯腱斷裂"},{"start":13010.688,"end":13026.748,"text":"後來其實是很幸好經過復健然後他很積極的強大的那種心理因素讓他可以迅速的回到場上所以這次八零奧運還是有拿到門票那另外這幾天我們看到就是奧運主辦國文化國"},{"start":13027.529,"end":13041.92,"text":"有那個與球的公開賽去參加的王麒麟選手他昨天在社群才特別提到說在當地有人的行李被偷還有人的房間被闖入那一間的房間本來是戴志穎的房間"},{"start":13044.751,"end":13072.708,"text":"臨名總總就說想請教部長跟署長就是說我們這次代表隊的選手機會要怎麼安排那這次的比賽地點在巴黎那所以這個路程蠻遙遠的那我看了我們奧運代表團的這些這個機票運輸往返的絕標的公告有商務艙有豪華經濟艙也有經濟艙三種艙等那不曉得艙等怎麼分配"},{"start":13074.298,"end":13088.888,"text":"謝謝委員因為委員是運動的愛好者跟推動者所以這些細節都關心的了解的非常清楚我也跟委員報告東京奧運當然在選手教練的這些機會安排有一些差錯"},{"start":13089.888,"end":13094.789,"text":"最後我們也跨部會而且拜託次長跟署長親自調度到每一個所以即使亞運這麼大團最後也跟選手協商能夠至少是豪華經濟上的這個等級以上也都算順利因為它實在太龐大了"},{"start":13111.993,"end":13118.116,"text":"這次巴黎的這部分我們一定都是在商務艙因為他團隊不會像亞運這麼龐大而且目前就已經規劃就是長榮直航讓選手教練對職員是以最舒適的方式抵達巴黎這個是在因為這個對選手戰力是很有關鍵所以這個安排從最近的世大運亞運的模擬演練"},{"start":13139.165,"end":13142.527,"text":"已經過考驗,會以這樣的方式安排另外當然後續在巴黎的現場的資源很重要所以體育署還有我們幾個專家已經前後兩次到巴黎了解比賽場地的他們的準備還有我們的中繼站後勤的這一塊那剛才委員有提到選手各項的設備比賽的用具這個一定是要盤整再盤整"},{"start":13166.138,"end":13166.918,"text":"目前已經有25張門票而且還在陸續增加總號"},{"start":13194.603,"end":13201.267,"text":"這些準備我們一定會用最大的力量來支持選手跟教練最後簡單一句話黃金計畫其實是真的讓我們這個奧運代表隊也好或者是我們的這個國家代表隊也好一個很重要的一個計畫功不可沒那所以我非常肯定黃金計畫那我想這個計畫真的"},{"start":13214.534,"end":13215.155,"text":"我們是不是可以"},{"start":13229.913,"end":13249.588,"text":"我們當然很開心說黃金計畫有升級加入職業選手的黃金計畫3.0那我想包括謝淑薇啊包括這個呃高雄名將這個潘正聰都有進去那我是希望說這個能滾動式的調整就最好是讓有潛力的年輕的這個新星也可以加入這個黃金這個計畫的行列那我想因為時間的關係那還請黃金計畫我們再更加黃金然後把這個計畫做好才能培育我們國家優秀選手"},{"start":13257.714,"end":13258.054,"text":"接下來我們請吳村成委員"},{"start":13306.343,"end":13326.019,"text":"委員好抱歉第一次我把人生第一次的質詢獻給教育部長我最尊敬的教育部長因為在我中學的時候就讀了一本書叫《西曹》"},{"start":13327.486,"end":13354.142,"text":"知道這個就是教育部長蔣孟林那我覺得他當時我看了好感動喔這個這本書對我人生影響很大而且我就一直非常敬佩教育部長那就是在一個國家在當時民國初年的時候在面臨的這個西學東學就是國家前途"},{"start":13355.102,"end":13370.611,"text":"國家到底我們的文化我們的價值觀那這些到底要何去何從的時候那有一個高度那一個教育家來思考因為教育的工作是在做什麼"},{"start":13372.199,"end":13397.043,"text":"部長覺得教育的工作忠實?我個人對教育的因為我本人一路都是教育人真的教育是培養一個國家裡面讓受教者從人到人才那人的概念裡面更希望每一個有各種不同的專長但他也能夠各式其所"},{"start":13397.423,"end":13400.227,"text":"我想這個是一個教育最大的本質每一個時代每一個"},{"start":13411.96,"end":13434.377,"text":"部長,任務都不太一樣。當時的任務,這個西朝也不會是現在的任務了。那看台灣的前途,往前30年台灣最重要的一件事情就是民主化。部長認同嗎?是。民主化很重要。但是呢,我覺得民主化現在大概完成了。"},{"start":13435.151,"end":13458.391,"text":"台灣現在人民為主這不太大的問題啦所以現在也不要一直整天太政治化搞太多民主教育就要回歸教育的本務在之前的教育部長培養我們國人的民主概念我覺得也非常認同但是往後看30年台灣最重要的事情是什麼"},{"start":13460.359,"end":13469.589,"text":"部長覺得往後因為這個就是目標喔這目標如果是模糊的國家戰略目標就模糊教育目標就模糊那整天不曉得在幹什麼"},{"start":13471.666,"end":13473.468,"text":"部長覺得未來三十年最重要的是什麼?"},{"start":13493.868,"end":13514.58,"text":"在教育上我想這個情勢是有重大的改變一方面我想對於少子化這個現象臺灣一定要面對也應該持續的這幾年是投入很大政策那壯年我想這個我也理解到這個一定是在整個國家發展社會產業發展裡面的但過往我們比較忽略的就是這個過60歲以後而且現在平均我們壽命"},{"start":13524.346,"end":13537.635,"text":"台大教授陳佳森醫院畢業教授他跟我溝通他說現在其實在我們很多的知識系統上面都面臨到必須要做認知革命"},{"start":13538.456,"end":13562.162,"text":"也就是我們的認知系統應該要翻新啦所以剛才比如說啦這個我們一般約定俗成會稱50歲叫什麼半白老翁對不對那60稱什麼花甲老翁我們的成語嘛媒體好像還都是這樣寫嘛那部長是自己覺得自己是花甲老翁嗎"},{"start":13564.514,"end":13582.833,"text":"如果以過去大家留下刻板印象所以這個有問題嘛這有問題但是呢這個影響到國人耶我們整個的社會就不要小看這個這不是一個笑話不是一個成語不是不只是一個成語這就是我們這個社會現在的一個價值系統"},{"start":13584.025,"end":13590.152,"text":"我今天要談的重點就是說我們從教育部的觀念我們怎麼樣面對60歲以後的人"},{"start":13599.983,"end":13624.408,"text":"現在60歲以後在台灣現在有多少人呢?部長知道嗎?目前來說大概是500萬左右600萬已經到600了大概600萬因為它一直在增加了對一直在增加台灣進入高齡化社會現在台灣人因為都要領老所以我們平均退休是60.3歲所以很早就要退休了那退休了以後要追求什麼?請問部長你知道嗎?退休以後要追求什麼?"},{"start":13629.744,"end":13632.365,"text":"請問要追求什麼?如果以現在平均壽命已經到80歲這樣的甚至以後還會再增加這個從退休到這個階段"},{"start":13652.892,"end":13680.624,"text":"其實這方面能夠讓我們說教聯長者先不要用哪個名詞其實在怎麼樣的去不管對自己的興趣也好或自己的我們說專長能力各方面能夠再有更延續的這個去發展自己的自我肯定價值我覺得這是必要的對 是這樣子所以部長是認同的因為目前我們的系統當中認為退休以後就是"},{"start":13681.304,"end":13682.927,"text":"另外,孩子年輕人的教育"},{"start":13691.322,"end":13717.536,"text":"我們現在年輕的教育很重要就是培養出來以後要知道他們在什麼環境生存培養他剛才講的就是培養人才能夠適應環境在未來能夠成為國家棟樑明年畢業的孩子跨出校園他踏出這個社會台灣就進入超高齡社會了五個人就有一個人超過65歲"},{"start":13721.13,"end":13743.517,"text":"2034年大概這孩子嘛在10年後這孩子30出頭了應該人生開始要起步嘛32例台灣一半人口已經超過50歲了2040年台灣65歲以上的人占人口的三分之一也就是說這個孩子是在的一生都在什麼社會高齡社會裡面"},{"start":13745.366,"end":13756.219,"text":"請問我不曉得教育部的這些長官們現在我們所培養的這些孩子你們設定他們未來在社會當中的那個競爭的生態是什麼生態"},{"start":13758.038,"end":13786.804,"text":"我現在時間有限我問過一個大學校長他們都設定了都是一個我們的社會永遠是青春無敵的社會其實我看了早上的那個教育部的這份簡報大概是這樣設定我們的社會永遠是一個青春無敵的社會事實上這個是大錯特錯我們在我們如果戰場都設定錯誤的話現在所做的教育規劃可能是有問題的所以呢也就是為什麼我要提出來"},{"start":13789.045,"end":13815.823,"text":"就是說不管這樣的一個結果我們對於高齡者因為沒有給他們一個好的引導所以台灣的高齡者現在平均臥床到8.9年高齡化的結果是倒下來年輕人因為培養出來以後他的戰場找不到自己的戰場所以不敢結婚結了婚不敢生小孩這就是少子化最大的生態的問題所以後來成為躺平族"},{"start":13816.443,"end":13830.121,"text":"也就是說在現行的教育體制下我們整個的社會導向了就是一邊就是躺成一片一邊臥床一邊躺平那我覺得剛才提到的這個是一個大方向"},{"start":13831.684,"end":13855.124,"text":"好那今天呢因為我要提了前面的論述太久就是其實60歲以後現在如果我們平均已經80幾歲了其實如果已經到60歲平均會到90也就是會展開二三十年之間的第三人生但是我們現在的這個第三人生缺乏描述沒有政策沒有產業沒有包括個人也都覺得退任我覺得這是教育部的責任"},{"start":13856.545,"end":13881.05,"text":"所以我們現在怎麼樣來我們現在目前看到教育部的就是終身教育的這一塊終身教育這一塊我們現在的預算只有34億但是我們的60歲上有600萬人34億提供600萬人的教育平均每個高齡者一年的教育預算是台幣57塊"},{"start":13884.163,"end":13910.587,"text":"這是什麼意思呢這就表示我們不重視嘛應該是這樣子吧然後大家的推論就是高齡者對教育沒有興趣大家看看這就是我們終身教育的場景這種場景會有人有興趣嗎所以當然然後說從大家的報名率我們的樂齡大學報名只有4000人600萬人當中只有4000人所以呢這一個"},{"start":13912.283,"end":13927.208,"text":"這個就是我們過去對高齡者缺乏想像教育當中對高齡的歧視缺乏規劃缺乏想像到形塑在我們的政策跟我們的預算編制當中都非常的偏差"},{"start":13929.209,"end":13948.291,"text":"這裡提出來 其實第一人生進入第二人生 這18歲要進大學嘛 對不對 這很正常那為什麼第二人生進入第三人生就不用進大學呢 我們可不可以用大學來取代養老院其實這個是充滿生機 教育部現在最大的煩惱是因為少子化 所以很多大學要關門嘛"},{"start":13949.952,"end":13976.003,"text":"但事實上現在這個600萬的我們稱叫壯世代的這一群人人生最大的遺憾就是沒有進大學因為那時候大學錄取率很低教育部要不要考慮來規劃讓這些人能夠進大學那不要推論為說他們對大學對讀書沒興趣是因為課程設計太爛如何在第三人生繼續能夠很豐富能夠成功我跟你講"},{"start":13977.063,"end":13979.765,"text":"希望這個部長,因為不好意思我知道部長有很多話要講,就是"},{"start":13998.139,"end":14004.421,"text":"稍後我會再做一個臨時提案﹖也會給一個時間﹖因為這個也不是貿然﹖因為這個要翻轉一個體系﹖大家認真面對﹖我們一起來推動好不好謝謝委員那一次前幾天拜會委員聽委員在談壯世代的這個整個構想我怕你那個專書我比較快速的瀏覽"},{"start":14023.986,"end":14048.493,"text":"確實這是一個我們想面對未來一個重新再思考定位我想過往我們所做的不管樂齡大學啦高齡學習中心等我想有它的基礎但是現在也蠻多的大學包含我們這個所謂開放大學也有讓很多有類似回流但是那個跟委員這個構想其實還有一些可再努力的地方我想這些確實可以再來"},{"start":14050.873,"end":14051.233,"text":"業源之委員"},{"start":14081.493,"end":14085.137,"text":"好那我們就現在就請我們的張雅玲委員好謝謝主席那我們有請潘部長謝謝"},{"start":14101.497,"end":14124.498,"text":"委員好部長好就是說兒少的身心發展是我過去在民間就一直非常關注的那其實在去年12月25號因為一個國中生他攜帶了彈簧刀然後到了學校造成了不幸的憾事發生那也引發了各界的關注所以我想要請教就是說因為教育部其實有在做這個校安諮詢的會議也邀請了非常多的專家學者一起來討論"},{"start":14125.999,"end":14151.906,"text":"那其中我最關注的一個問題也就是因為我過去也是國小的家長會會長那其實現場的教師最擔心的一個東西是說觸法少年的回歸校園的一個中介教育機制因為這些少年雖然誤觸法王但是他們不能是他完成了保護管束或者是管化教育或是服刑期滿他如何從少關所或是教政學校回到學校裡這一塊都需要一點適應的時間"},{"start":14153.966,"end":14154.807,"text":"但是現在學校裡其實沒有這樣的能量去來承接這樣的少年。"},{"start":14170.026,"end":14188.282,"text":"那之前部長曾經說會盤點資源來去看看跟民團合作設置這個中階教育基地來協助這些處罰的少年可以漸進式的回歸這個校園然後來確保我們的校園安全所以我想要詢問部長就是中階教育基地大概什麼時候會開始啟動"},{"start":14190.386,"end":14212.138,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個議題那也因為一些校園校安的問題那教育部在去年年底開始有全面性的對於有關輔導管教注意事項邀集縣市還有我們相關的教育團體然後裡面也很多是第一線的教育工作同仁包含校長"},{"start":14213.058,"end":14213.378,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14232.652,"end":14246.994,"text":"委員會議由林萬一政委持續的在進行那這些在整個檢討之後在今年2月5號我們也正式的來航班個縣市跟學校那委員官界中介的這一塊這是很實務的問題"},{"start":14248.556,"end":14256.159,"text":"因為這一次我們對於這一方面的一方面教育部積極的盤點未來可以來支援縣市跟學校可以來共同參與的這個當時跟我們衛福單位來瞭解還有相關的基金會像葉俊維他本身常寫這個我們大概盤了大概有88個這樣的團體那其中有一些目前初步接洽也都認為他們"},{"start":14276.408,"end":14285.236,"text":"有意願也合適可以來有效的能夠作為這樣的支持那這部分在3月底前因為現在都陸續在盤整那有些縣市他的資源比較充裕有些縣市目前我們是覺得不夠那這部分再跟相關的局處長我們再談一定要把它建制起來"},{"start":14297.987,"end":14300.609,"text":"因為這個基礎建制才有辦法讓我們因為建議司法院我們邵氏官他們在處理上有一個重要的機制他們在做調查還有要做裁決的這個過程一定要讓學校參與那參與之後就會有建議"},{"start":14317.043,"end":14332.117,"text":"部長,因為時間有限,那我們再下一頁,謝謝就是說因為我之前有要一些資料就是說我發現就是在新竹縣跟連江縣這兩個地方是還沒有這個中介教育基地那剛剛部長有提到就是3月底會開始啟動那我想問一下這兩個沒有的"},{"start":14332.697,"end":14332.777,"text":"該怎麼來協助?"},{"start":14353.712,"end":14379.343,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":14379.723,"end":14406.398,"text":"我想請再麻煩部長,因為其實我現在看到基隆或是嘉義市有些地方也只有1到2個那這些地方也希望部長可以再持續的去協調來去評估我們這個量能是不是能夠去足夠承接這些孩子再來下一個我想要請問有哪些孩子會回到中介教育基地剛剛好像有提到由邵氏這邊來判定他是不是需要回到中介教育基地是嗎?"},{"start":14406.678,"end":14427.492,"text":"我跟委員報告,因為這個曝險少年或我們說司法少年其實樣態蠻多啦有的說真話只是因為自身的一些行為比如說偷竊啦等等的但從事情發生行為人的個案裡面他其實是不會說去傷及影響到但如果像新北的這個個案"},{"start":14429.894,"end":14442.241,"text":"續有相關包含可能過往有比如加入幫派或有暴力傾向等等這個在少數官座調查其實是可以瞭解到行為人的樣態那我們目前會以這個可能對"},{"start":14444.482,"end":14444.502,"text":" ﹝討論中﹞"},{"start":14465.649,"end":14479.205,"text":"但對於有些像剛才跟委員報告這種對定的對象他真的需要有一個中介的過程讓孩子可以在這方面有更充裕的時間做改變那部長不好意思喔就是那請問一下倒數會不會有一個評估機制來評估他什麼時候可以離開中介教育基地對嗎這個一定會"},{"start":14483.83,"end":14503.706,"text":"下一頁想要再追問一下有關於特殊教育的部分因為剛剛其實都有一些委員有來問就是這個特教助理員的薪資的問題那剛剛部長就有兩個提有一題一直在講就是說你們會做到一個全國一致那這個全國一致的部分是什麼一致是薪資一致還是什麼一致我想要請部長再幫我多做一些說明"},{"start":14504.226,"end":14504.926,"text":"教育部原理4年的計畫"},{"start":14525.558,"end":14545.295,"text":"未來有相當程度有1600位的專任的人員也增加部分服務的時數我想這些都是我們希望把它建置起來這個是過往比較不足的地方那往下就是那這些相關人員的待遇包含我們說他的一些服務等等的這方面我們會訂定要點"},{"start":14547.116,"end":14551.339,"text":"這個要點也比較希望跟縣市來交換一點,像委員所提到,你看縣市大意的很大這個一致當然也比較希望能夠以這個方式來縣市溝通因為中央當然也會增加更多的預算來協助縣市我用一個舉例啦,就是過往中小學代理教師也是各行其事啦,有的聘10個月,有的10個半月,有的全年聘"},{"start":14573.638,"end":14592.576,"text":"這一方面我想在去年教育部跟縣市努力下也把它建立起來我用那個概念就是希望這個在各個地方都會很一致性的服務的樣態包含這些人員的待遇福利等等的這個一致我們比較朝這個方向來努力那部長請問一下這個一致的部分這些詳細的規劃大概什麼時候會出來呢"},{"start":14595.038,"end":14615.333,"text":"因為這個制度會在113學年度正式上路那預算目前都已經編列了我們比較希望轉成執行的要點這方面目前國教署已經跟縣市大概有召開兩次的會議那慢慢就是把縣市因為差異也要大家對起來所以上路的時間就是113學年度"},{"start":14620.276,"end":14637.842,"text":"今年的8月好 了解那最後一個部分我想要再來第4 下一題齁因為時間有點不太夠再下一題就是有關於這個學生輔導人力的部分可以幫我按下一張嗎好 謝謝就是因為現在學生就是這個青少年還有大學生 自家律師節節的上升我們可以看到這張簡報上面"},{"start":14639.482,"end":14658.974,"text":"從國小國中跟大學他的這個自殺通報件數是達到了10倍那增長的10倍跟106年相比那自殺死亡通報件數國小國中跟大學也都是有成長了2到4倍不等那我想要詢問就是說因為之前教育部已經有規劃大專院校的人力的輔導人力是從1比1200到1比900"},{"start":14661.255,"end":14683.602,"text":"希望可以有更充足的一些輔導人力來接觸我們的孩子那我想要問一下就是目前的聘用的輔導人力已經降到1比900了嗎?針對於大專院校的部分是 跟我們報告因為這個部分在法還沒有完成最後通過班刑那教育部教育預算先行目前大概五成多到六成"},{"start":14684.202,"end":14707.04,"text":"是按照1比900那還有三四成應該四成多目前位置還沒有達到這個當然在法律還沒有通過之前我們還是積極因為這個是用我們更多的資源在協助學校所以這方面我想一方面也希望這個法律我們能夠明定下來變成大家依法來行政那今年教育部多編了將近2億給大學的這個專輔人力的補充就是達到1比900"},{"start":14712.584,"end":14712.744,"text":"行政上我們還是繼續推啦"},{"start":14731.399,"end":14757.527,"text":"針對這些心腹人力這些腹腦的心理諮商師是不是可以有一些調整的空間那因為時間有限那希望就是說如果有一些做一些討論的話之後也可以提供一些相關的研究報告給我們到我們辦公室那再來就是說因為針對於中小學的部分因為其實這個人力也是在增加的那其實去年我過去的這個民團特工盟他們其實做了一個研究就是針對於北高的孩子他們去問他你的週末你有沒有時間去休息"},{"start":14759.067,"end":14785.74,"text":"他們請他寫日記就發現說這個日記裡面從平常到週末的時候他都沒有時間可以去休息為什麼?其實就像剛剛那個議金委員的這個案例一樣很多的家長還是會認為學習比較重要以至於他們就會說他下課他的週末可能都沒有辦法出去玩因為週末老師會出更難的功課更複雜的功課那或者是說他要去上安親版"},{"start":14786.32,"end":14809.562,"text":"所以他們當時也是有一個兒童遊戲宣言是待會想要交給這是孩子們自己做出來的一個版本所以待會希望可以交給部長那我想要詢問就是說其實這個裡面有一個很大的問題就是家長對於休憩的意識不足那是不是就有可能往幾個方向來發展第一個是說我們是在因為小孩都要留課後班因為家長都要上課的關係上班的關係"},{"start":14810.803,"end":14827.869,"text":"我們有沒有可能在課後班裡面去要求有一些遊戲的時間跟運動的時間增加他的運動時間對他的身心發展也是好的那第二個部分也就是說我們是不是可以在親師的會議裡面提供一些防毒我們都有防毒的宣導我們是不是可以有一些安全的宣導遊戲的宣導這樣子"},{"start":14830.31,"end":14854.662,"text":"接下來就是說我們可不可以提供一些像類似健康五蔬果這樣子的宣傳單張給家長幫助家長去理解這件事情的重要性那最後我就想要講這個兒童遊戲宣言他們其實第一條就講說我知道學習很重要但是請大人相信遊戲對我也一樣重要好那我希望我可以有一些時間讓大家請大家把時間還給我那我也希望說我可以有更多的"},{"start":14855.162,"end":14859.425,"text":"我先謝謝委員我想這樣的方向應該是教育部也一直在推啦我們一直在推唱戶外教育為什麼就希望孩子走出課室家長也多一點機會希望不只是課業"},{"start":14885.146,"end":14885.166,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":14914.98,"end":14941.603,"text":"好我們謝謝委員那接下來我們就先來處理這個臨時提案那今天有委員提出臨時提案共計議案我們先宣讀一下有均於60歲以上壯士代已超過600萬人超過全臺灣的四分之一在此人口趨勢下壯士代為追求高齡生活下第三美好人生在教育及技能訓練需求逐漸浮現顯然有必要為相關族群進行真正喪志規劃"},{"start":14943.024,"end":14969.758,"text":"加固音域先研議．並就壯世代之教育機構第三人生大學．設計課程需求．無可與學校教育接軌．和設置實施場所等提出可行性之建議．並就以上所述內容舉辦會議．充分搜集民間意見及政策建議．於3個月內提出書面報告與立法院教文委員會．提案人吳春成柯之恩范雲吳佩奕訊的完畢"},{"start":14971.018,"end":14973.099,"text":"提案委員提案委員提案委員提案委員"},{"start":14995.867,"end":15013.18,"text":"教育部配合辦理3月1日給我們5位委員這樣子的一個報告所以我們就照案通過如果有提案如果有需要委員補簽的話那就請議事人員就是詳細的登載在我們的議事錄當中那接下來我們繼續進行我們的質詢541委員"},{"start":15022.503,"end":15030.968,"text":"無私謠委員無私謠委員鄭天才委員鄭天才 喔鄭天才委員五分鐘抱歉"},{"start":15060.257,"end":15086.558,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請部長委員好部長好 這個原住民的教育非常重要吧是原住民的教育這幾年委員一直都持續在關心但是真的是要去加油了我們看這個原住民學生保障辦法"},{"start":15088.562,"end":15115.109,"text":"這個特別提到現在都是外加外加名額這個102年經過我的質詢協調102年的時候這個保障辦法第三條第三項第二款修正了特別增加大專校宴這個會商由教育部會商演名會之後可以專案調高"},{"start":15116.581,"end":15118.982,"text":"但是我們現在看近5年大專校園學生初在協力沿漢的差距"},{"start":15146.857,"end":15151.799,"text":"107 懸念度31.9、108 31.5、109 31.4、110 懸念度32.2、111 懸念度32.4結果落差、沿岸的落差還增加所以這個部分真的是要加油"},{"start":15171.363,"end":15198.276,"text":"那怎麼樣去加油很簡單現在其實不是少子你化嚴重嗎大專學生不是都越來越少嗎怎麼會沒有辦法去增加呢所以你看到現在這個科系只有這幾個科系被專案調高這個未辦理大專校園原住民學生外加名額專案調高的只有有這麼多"},{"start":15200.854,"end":15214.476,"text":"所以這個部分所以應該怎麼樣去這本不是應該一定要一定要專案調高不然我們是不是我們全部修法全部改為5%"},{"start":15217.407,"end":15234.233,"text":"謝謝委員因為一開始我跟委員報告這些年委員一直對原住民族孩子的升學持續關注但面對包含我們幾項學生的經濟的部分委員之前也有建議有關這個學費的補助等等都有一些措施"},{"start":15235.454,"end":15247.313,"text":"現在在原名專班也持續的在大學大專校院目前大概已經有將近40所學校來設置研製中心幾乎是每校都必備這樣的一個資源"},{"start":15250.017,"end":15274.799,"text":"所以我想在整個支持體系跟預算的增加上這些年我想教育部這邊確實也逐步的在增加那委員在提到的那個出債學率的這部分其實這短見這3年是有逐漸的在增加當然委員關切就我們有5%的彈性但是系所所爭勢的這部分我也跟委員報告很多的系所根本招不到"},{"start":15275.319,"end":15278.521,"text":"教育部一定會持續跟原民會 因為在剛剛委員所說的這個辦法 也要教育部會同原民會做人才上的這項面的報告 剛才數據已經讓你知道了 這個差距是在增加的"},{"start":15294.85,"end":15297.692,"text":"我鄭重的建議是不是因為這個外加百分之二已經很久了從民國90幾年到現在了"},{"start":15318.223,"end":15332.769,"text":"有些系所已經在5%了但是還是很少啊現在只要說我們評估有需要我們就會請學生因為外加名額不影響到國內學生的權益啊不是評估盡量協調想辦法協調這些大專業校嘛"},{"start":15338.346,"end":15362.634,"text":"想辦法增加協調,盡力的去協調外加專案調高外加百分之五去落實這條條文你這個教育部會持續努力好不好我也希望能接受一個因為我們都會去看入學狀態不然你名額雖然一直給多但是學生邊又選那麼多你那個那個沒有人知道意思嗎那個意義就不到"},{"start":15363.294,"end":15365.596,"text":"最後這個不好意思東海大學研資中心爭議的問題這個部分請教育部因為時間的關係這個邱運芳"},{"start":15389.836,"end":15415.006,"text":"教授他特別提到給的建議完全沒有用超離譜這是他的臉書然後這裡面他也提到研製中心教育部應該多要多輔導所以這個部分因為時間的關係這個對研製中心本來又非常善意現在變得負面了這個部分我知道你們也去調過但是不夠"},{"start":15418.247,"end":15444.885,"text":"所以這個部分這個文化敏感度這個方面讓聯思中心能夠現在反而造成學生的困擾或是甚至學生這個個案我有深入了解請團隊過去幫忙那人員上確實觀念那是最根本你一出發點就沒有這個概念說實在越幫越忙這個學校也接受會做調整你也提供這個後續的"},{"start":15446.806,"end":15447.727,"text":"謝主席 本席想邀請部長"},{"start":15478.815,"end":15480.417,"text":"接下來本席要討論的是心理健康價"},{"start":15499.974,"end":15500.374,"text":"在111年第1學期請心理駕"},{"start":15530.891,"end":15552.546,"text":"學生有高達三成,不一定有三成。因此,大學推動心理假,我們知道它不用付什麼證明。有很多學生也了解目前的狀況。所以在3月起,心理假延伸到高中來示範。"},{"start":15553.581,"end":15576.031,"text":"您們延伸到高中來示範目前有40家有意願要示範高中生那為什麼會延到這個呢因為本是長期一直關心我們孩子的情緒心理當然不只學校教育社會教育以及家庭教育這個壓力讓我們的學生必須要得到這樣子的一個輔導"},{"start":15577.592,"end":15587.255,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下我們看到2016年到2020年我們這個國小學生到大學生試圖結束生命的通報案件"},{"start":15588.635,"end":15610.147,"text":"想到這個數字都讓我們很難過從1089件你增加到8730件你五年內增加了八倍到底什麼原因讓我們看到這個顯性的數字我相信隱性的數字或許還有"},{"start":15612.308,"end":15641.191,"text":"所以這看到我們高中生的心理健康已經有這個危機那所以我要請教部長高中生國高中生他的升學壓力很大那平常請教都需要填這個價卡嘛不像大學生的課堂出席因為他是大學自主就很自由那你教育部要如何落實讓學生不耽誤課業又有一個健康的學習環境你除了目前你所謂的"},{"start":15642.052,"end":15660.208,"text":"心理架相關參考的指引你有沒有了解到校園內的心理輔導跟諮商的資源是否足夠這是本期所要提問的討論的重點請教部長謝謝委員因為委員剛才所提到的這確實是我們要面對而且也是讓我們非常"},{"start":15662.63,"end":15677.729,"text":"議員提到不管大學或高中為什麼會包含身心調適假我們暫時用這個詞比較中性因為孩子有時候是一時情緒有些可能是比較更嚴重一點等等的"},{"start":15679.251,"end":15699.238,"text":"在這方面我想主要是讓孩子有一個稍微喘息的這樣的一個空間所以你的心理輔導跟你的諮商資源你夠嗎對對對我應該再補充的就是這個你夠嗎這個是對孩子本身那現在像大學為什麼在學生輔導法還在討論但是今年的預算已經將大學1比1200調為1比900"},{"start":15702.439,"end":15702.459,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":15718.666,"end":15718.886,"text":"獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":15741.516,"end":15742.657,"text":"議長,謝謝你責成這個專案因為五年是八倍的數字讓我非常的憂心"},{"start":15760.212,"end":15780.785,"text":"我們要國高中來做你的資源夠嗎?你要怎麼樣去盤點?因為事辦就有40所學校所以我建議你專案去討論討論出來他的資商他的資源到底要人力資源要怎麼做你要盤點出來順便資料給本席因為時間的關係請你把順便資料給本席再一個議題給你"},{"start":15788.69,"end":15804.776,"text":"就是我們108年開始呢這個學習歷程你三聲五令說種子不種量但是實際的情況你隨便一個電商平台上直接搜尋學習歷程檔案歐巴救星這個隨便"},{"start":15807.386,"end":15808.527,"text":"更完整更完整你怎麼做啊?"},{"start":15822.621,"end":15847.917,"text":"跟委員報告那當然對大學校園這個招生單位包含教授這針對學習立場的部分這個詳細的資料我們把資料整理在因為早上也幾位委員都在關切了對我一定把它整理也給委員做參考它不是賣嘛對不對所以你很清楚啊所以部長你自己內行的你要去盤點你既然提出這樣的政策你要怎麼樣讓它制度能夠周全"},{"start":15849.218,"end":15849.398,"text":"羅致強委員"},{"start":15883.502,"end":15889.236,"text":"主席好 有請部長委員好"},{"start":15890.461,"end":15915.242,"text":"近年來校園暴力是越來越嚴重昨天這幾天其實網路瘋傳的就是北投一位老師被特教的學生有些暴力攻擊的狀態我想部長應該都看過這些影片吧我想請教部長2016年到2023年校園暴力與偏差行為大概增加幾倍"},{"start":15917.82,"end":15920.923,"text":"從蔡政府8年執政暴力事件從6959件增加到27511件增加了3.95倍"},{"start":15936.818,"end":15961.816,"text":"我要跟部長說現在不只是社會安全網破了校園安全網也破了我想請問今天部長您的報告很仔細但我看了很多最近大家最關心的校園暴力事件你只有在強化校園安全與教師輔導管教提到427字佔總篇幅0.68的篇幅當然次數不重要"},{"start":15962.957,"end":15975.906,"text":"內容你就說要召開校園安全會議修訂學校制定教師輔導管教學生辦法制定校園安全檢查操作手冊你真的認為這三項措施就能夠應對8年漲4倍的校園暴力嗎?"},{"start":15979.164,"end":15989.311,"text":"我跟委員報告加強通報這件事情是這幾年我們也持續努力因為校園霸凌的問題社會各界關心最怕的就是學生部長我問你的事你覺得你現在這三項因應就足夠嗎"},{"start":15994.716,"end":16018.338,"text":"我要跟委員回應這個背書是不要讓這些在校園變成是被隱瞞的這是教育部的態度部長我其實只是督促您因為暴力的狀況恐怕不只是數字我相信大家學校的感受也很深所以基本上因為時間只有5分鐘啦所以如果你有什麼細部比這個今天報的更精確的話你再書面提供給本席好 詳細的我們再跟委員報告"},{"start":16019.079,"end":16032.134,"text":"那我再跟你講這些數據其實我蠻心痛的你知道2016年到2023年幼兒園國高中小大專院校哪一個學齡層暴力偏差事件漲幅最高最嚴重"},{"start":16034.315,"end":16057.606,"text":"沒關係我知道數字你也不熟悉答案是幼稚園2016年九件二零二三年是兩百七十一件成長快要三十倍少子女化孩子越來越少校園暴力偏差事件卻越來越多那麼我舉了這麼多數字還有包括我們在這個去年二零二三年你知道哪一個學林城的暴力偏差行為最多"},{"start":16058.991,"end":16059.792,"text":"哪一個學齡層?我要告訴大家"},{"start":16088.493,"end":16106.016,"text":"現在暴力不但大幅增加有低齡化的措施那接下來我就要問你下一個問題就是大家真的很關切就是你有看到昨天臺北市的高中發生側教生暴打老師的事件嘛 對不對我想請問當下老師校方的處理怎麼樣"},{"start":16107.455,"end":16111.597,"text":"事實上第一時間老師學生反應就通報教官那目前你知道教育部的估算全國有1900位教官對不對"},{"start":16137.475,"end":16139.077,"text":"昨天的情形沒有教官"},{"start":16150.802,"end":16168.425,"text":"老師跟學生怎麼處理?委員現在教官如果離退後我們替補的是校安人力這個部分會比原來教官還多1.5倍的人我期待你的替補措施能夠補充教官所擔任的安全工作那我想請問你最後這個失控學生是怎麼被壓制的?現場的情形我就比較不了解因為很多老師協作資源你剛剛說你有看過看要看仔細"},{"start":16178.894,"end":16196.602,"text":"事實上最後是這個學生離開教室又折返再度毆打老師老師完全沒有動手任憑被打就是四五個同學撲上去壓制學生我想請問老師也不敢動手教官也不敢動手最後是由同學來去壓制這是正確的SOP嗎"},{"start":16199.936,"end":16202.959,"text":"你完全講到重點了過去這些年老師多辛苦的原因是什麼"},{"start":16215.765,"end":16235.07,"text":"因為我們在一些錯誤的教育政策之下我們過度的剝奪了老師的管教權所以今天這老師即便面對暴力都無力以對到最後竟然要靠學生同學也沒有執法權他在壓制學生過程當中如果學生受傷請問那些同學不是也很無辜嗎"},{"start":16236.01,"end":16239.451,"text":"我剛已經跟委員報告我想在整個注意事項的調整就是對於老師在合理的正常的管教能夠讓老師能夠確除主確違法的罪犯希望您更盡力因為老師真的仰仗教育部的努力感謝您"},{"start":16264.938,"end":16274.283,"text":"我們會持續努力謝謝好 謝謝羅委員 謝謝部長那我們接下來是王洪威委員一樣5分鐘 謝謝好 謝謝主席我請潘部長委員好委員請高教司高教司今天是副司長是吧"},{"start":16291.713,"end":16296.296,"text":"是因為市長在參加國外的一個會議來部長副市長我今天來用質詢的時間來講一個事情就是我們的北科大這個事情呢我不曉得部長知不知道北科大因為現在去跟他附近的建國啤酒廠他在做一個改建案"},{"start":16322.164,"end":16345.236,"text":"北科大在我們副院長鄭文燦副院長一個人決定拍板之後找了各部會把原來整個建國啤酒廠的都更案經過中央和地方都審會全部通過的都更案把它撤回"},{"start":16346.471,"end":16346.651,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":16363.702,"end":16383.764,"text":"但是這中間後來一直到蘇院長蘇貞昌當院長的時候就讓改吳澤成當時當政務委員就協調說拍板定案不要再延宕可是沒想到鄭文燦一上來就再度的指示乾脆全部撤案讓北哥和大強占地"},{"start":16384.898,"end":16410.866,"text":"我要讓部長知道這個事情北科大這樣的一個行為也就行政院這樣的行為造成附近包含附近的居民包含工會包含文資團體極為憤怒到現在他們已經到監察院已經去告了然後會繼續的去做抗爭好來下一頁讓部長看一下那這有點歪掉看一下那個棕色的線就是"},{"start":16413.247,"end":16429.747,"text":"這整塊基地面積他分大學一大學二他特別的是他不是只有校舍而已他要的地裡面還有一大塊他是屬於古蹟因為建國啤酒廠也很賊"},{"start":16431.158,"end":16432.439,"text":"在我們協調會的時候我也曾經問我們的教育部"},{"start":16454.48,"end":16481.058,"text":"我說那北科大有沒有跟你報告他要了校舍之後他一年要花多少錢來做維護古蹟沒有大家都知道這個經費非常龐大我說這好笑嘞一個學校應該是他是做大學結果你要花這麼多錢為了這塊地然後去做這個古蹟好你總要跟教育部報告吧"},{"start":16482.014,"end":16509.979,"text":"因為當時就是鄭文燦一個人拍板大家全部配合教育部會搞不清楚反正以後他還給國產署國產署要給你教育部教育部你再撥給北科大剩下來北科大到底花多少經費你們還不知道但是出錢的是你們我們再來看下一頁因為這涉及古蹟的維護的問題它是花錢的它不但有專業它也要花錢"},{"start":16511.397,"end":16536.355,"text":"但是過去北科大有一個記錄這為什麼使得工會也好或者是因為工會有員工對建國啤酒廠這些建物有感情讓文字團體非常擔心北科大當時也是在鄭文燦當桃園縣的時候把他的桃園農工撥給北科大所以他變成北科副工"},{"start":16537.896,"end":16546.275,"text":"笑色里面呢也有屬於歷史建築日式宿舍結果沒過多久呢一把火燒掉了"},{"start":16547.765,"end":16568.372,"text":"發生火災整個歷史建築被燒掉大半燒掉三分之二所以大家非常擔心啊顧忌會不會重施你今天北科大要這個古蹟幹什麼其實這個事情因為五分鐘我還沒辦法講很清楚但是我要先讓部長知道這個事情我會繼續的去追蹤"},{"start":16570.012,"end":16583.661,"text":"因為這個引起我們當地居民我剛講當地居民公會還有文資團體極大的憤怒及反彈認為北科大要做惡領區我覺得我們不應該讓我們的學校成為一個惡領區第二個"},{"start":16586.124,"end":16603.465,"text":"他以後要做這樣大的一個鼓機維護錢從哪裡來人從哪裡來教育部不要只是當鄭文燦的硬生蟲否則以後再發生像類似北科復工也是北科大"},{"start":16604.571,"end":16606.072,"text":"馬文鈞委員馬文鈞委員馬文鈞委員呂玉玲委員呂玉玲委員呂玉玲委員蔡易瑜委員"},{"start":16640.233,"end":16641.989,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們是不是有請部長"},{"start":16646.759,"end":16669.938,"text":"委員好部長好部長那個針對這一個幼教那這個教保員那我想我們在去年我們這個教保員的教保費我們從900提高到了2000這個當時是很多教保員是大家都都認為說哇這個爭取好久而且當時蔡英文總統也有把他的政見"},{"start":16671.42,"end":16693.001,"text":"我們也是兌現了這樣的政見但是隨著我們看到這幾年基本工資在調高那漸漸的在這個准公幼這個的教保員事實上他們的薪資跟他們付出的一個勞力基本上不成正比因為我們這些教保員要照顧這些孩子是很辛苦的事情"},{"start":16695.516,"end":16720.415,"text":"我們也把這個比例嘛就是說這個他們帶的學童的比例也希望朝向1比12來邁進今年我們也提高了這個教保員的薪資要隨著這個公務員加薪4%嘛還提高1200塊但是從去年我知道部長事實上也開了也很多委員包括當時張耀萬間委員嘛也都有"},{"start":16723.957,"end":16749.827,"text":"基本上調整今年調整一千兩百塊教保員跟這個總工幼的一個教保員事實上跟失效的還是有落差那他們還是會有同工不同酬而且會對於在總工幼的這個因而感受就是他們還是屬於低薪一族所以付出這麼多的勞力結果他們的薪水是這個樣子變得他們無法"},{"start":16750.487,"end":16755.294,"text":"久留在他們的一個職場上所以部長你也說今年4月就要針對這一個準公用的這一個救保員來提出檢討那你們現在的方向是怎樣呢"},{"start":16762.276,"end":16780.723,"text":"謝謝委員,就如剛才委員所說的這幾年我們接續在教保費還有同步跟進攻教的調薪都是最近這一段時間因為也確實要留得住我們教保同仁在幼兒園我覺得合理的薪資待遇調整一定是一個要持續進行"},{"start":16782.123,"end":16790.33,"text":"現在因為有關准工 因為剛才委員提到應該是准工幼跟非營利跟公幼跟私立 其實准工幼很多都還比私立的待遇應該相對的比較有保障 因為那個是跟政府合作的"},{"start":16798.796,"end":16807.619,"text":"現在就是即將在8月要進入我們所謂第三個階段的合作契約的訂定那這一次在這方面因為各界包括委員這邊也都關心在第三屆要跟這個總工又來訂約的時候我們現在正在在討論的就是說對於他們教保同仁的薪資待遇在這方面也希望能夠在這一次的議約裡面"},{"start":16825.286,"end":16833.849,"text":"來做這方面的一個處理目前正在討論這個過程目前還在討論要訂閱因為這個一定下去就是就兩年嘛三年嘛對一定就是三年嘛所以我想在這一次訂閱的時候有一個合理的價格因為前面那兩項都不是在預約範圍我們就是外加就是教保費教保費是外加的那現在進入到薪資就會在第三屆第三期"},{"start":16852.476,"end":16871.417,"text":"做議約的時候我們這方面希望現在當然也跟各這些教保團體在做討論這個我也希望也大家共同去支持因為政府一定會在支持這些參與的這些相關的預算那他們要反映在照顧自己教保同仁的薪資待遇所以目前在做這個協調討論的過程"},{"start":16873.479,"end":16893.309,"text":"好,那我想這部分就是繼續努力啦那第二個議題啦這個問題也是很大就是我們的雙語政策啦因為我在去年我接到好多教師跟我陳情說我們雙語政策勒事實上是給老師過大的使用英語去進行教學的負擔比方說他可能是教"},{"start":16895.03,"end":16899.531,"text":"對於學生他們在除了英語以外其他的學歷的展現事實上反而是不好的"},{"start":16914.156,"end":16926.071,"text":"所以我們這個雙語政策會不會說科語第一個老師這個使用英語教學過重的一個義務那以及說有沒有更好的方式來落實我們的雙語政策"},{"start":16927.157,"end":16931.958,"text":"我跟你們報告我為什麼說教育部一定要再跟縣市更同一步調跟目標啦當然委員所提的這個數學啦等等的這幾個自然這些領域這都不是在我們推動在這個部分領域去進行的項目但有些縣市可能在這上面有一點求好我接到的陳情就真的好很多啊對對"},{"start":16949.963,"end":16953.245,"text":"所以這個就是我說為什麼要對因為我們現在在推的比較都是一些比較日常的包含有一些領域可能在這個學科上面是可以比較用日常互動的這個方式來進行因為我們應該是要給他們有這個英語的環境但這個環境不應該是在說每一個學科他都使用英語教學我覺得這件事情"},{"start":16973.857,"end":16974.157,"text":"並備質詢委員會及7日二天一次會議"},{"start":16991.32,"end":16991.72,"text":"接下來林德福委員"},{"start":17014.861,"end":17040.529,"text":"林佩祥委員 林佩祥委員 林佩祥委員鄭正前委員 鄭正前委員 鄭正前委員王美惠委員 王美惠委員 王美惠委員林俊憲委員 林俊憲委員 林俊憲委員邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員何新淳委員 何新淳委員 何清雲委員"},{"start":17041.869,"end":17058.903,"text":"翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員游浩委員游浩委員游浩委員武力華委員謝謝謝謝主席有請潘部長"},{"start":17070.138,"end":17093.492,"text":"委員好部長好辛苦了部長我最近有接到一個陳情陳情的單位是東海大學的學生以及園資中心的專任助理我想你應該有聽說這個事件對這個案子我也接到也做了進一步的處理我是這樣子想因為過去以來"},{"start":17095.13,"end":17102.256,"text":"應該是說從2012年我們頒布了一個大專校院設置源資中心的補助要點之後"},{"start":17103.407,"end":17131.541,"text":"很多的委員應該都很關心原資中心的發展那之所以關心一定是接受到很多老師跟學生的陳情那我今天在夜報有特別看到在全民原教的推動有特別提到這樣一句話就是透過這個學生原資中心然後呢由學校一級單位整合資源來推動全民原教"},{"start":17132.341,"end":17151.638,"text":"我覺得這句話講得很好那這個也是我們今天這個陳情案的問題所在那我要說的是其實我在110年4月的時候我曾經質詢過關於原資中心的人力問題當時呢教育部也很快在5月10號就給我一個報告"},{"start":17155.26,"end":17178.229,"text":"這個報告也獲得報導者的一個青睞所以他們就特別當時也有做了一個報導就是原民學生的第二個家那他們提到的其實是原資中心長期以來大家所詬病的第一就是助理的部分會變成血汗助理那另外在學校的定位也是有被邊緣化這樣的一個困擾那很感謝其實在109年"},{"start":17183.391,"end":17203.996,"text":"我們已經補足原資中心一名專任人力甚至在去年我們繼續關心之後又每達200人再增市一名可是我想要說的就是我們來看一下其實我們的原資中心的設置要點"},{"start":17205.456,"end":17232.131,"text":"我們可以看到除了那個第二點寫得蠻好的就是說要辦理學生的生活課業就業輔導生涯發展民族教育還有減緩原住民學生的休退學率提升原住民學生的學習成就您聽聽看第三點配合本部及原民會推動原住民教育事項配合區域原資中心各項推動事項其他相關事項我是覺得這個345就有點困擾了"},{"start":17234.873,"end":17260.886,"text":"因為很寬啊很寬啊那我們也常說也許這就是血汗助理的一個根源啊我想這個要點可以去注意一下那我其實比較想知道的那生活課業就業民族教育的輔導呢我想跟我們部長報告應該您也知道大家都在講因為很多的"},{"start":17261.886,"end":17278.665,"text":"大學院校並沒有按照剛才我們業報上講的由一級單位會診喔像東海大學他竟然是學務處下有個領培中心領培中心下又下學生資源中心"},{"start":17279.466,"end":17289.212,"text":"然後這個學生資源中心呢就變成他們的覆水組織嘿 婦女會有客人來就去表演跳舞也就罷了但是老師都會說你們穿原住民族服很漂亮啊我們來拍月曆啊可以來那個之類的齁那個在學生的感受很不好而且會覺得自己呢好像變成是學校的表演單位這個我們以前都提過可是為什麼會發生會存在"},{"start":17309.966,"end":17324.254,"text":"專任助理根據教育部給我的資料應該你們也知道但是我不知道後續的一個你們有沒有想到要怎麼改進因為竟然我們專任助理好不容易教育部那麼好50%以上超過一半未滿一年"},{"start":17331.089,"end":17348.328,"text":"也就是說不到一年大家都選擇走人所以這個問題一定是很大所以我覺得在這個部分薪資條件明明我們教育部給的一年人事費一個助理是45萬可是竟然有超過一成六他是拿不到三萬塊"},{"start":17349.847,"end":17360.696,"text":"所以我想這個部分我們都知道問題所在但是我們有沒有後續透過我們的評鑑方式去做修訂那這一次東華大學的事件我自己也請我們東華大學來當然他們已經把這個原資中心拿掉了變成學務處下可是竟然他們學校沒有一個原住民級的老師欸"},{"start":17377.33,"end":17401.117,"text":"一個都沒有欸竟然這樣子也能夠申請原資中心欸那我的意思是說申請原資中心很好因為現在普及率將近百分百九成以上很好因為我們確實需要原民學生大學來關心可是我們更希望的是這一些負責的主管他要有文化敏感度所以我在這邊就是特別就是還是要跟教育部這邊拜託一下我們的孩子齁我是希望"},{"start":17407.98,"end":17421.015,"text":"國小國中高中我們有原教法第34條去規定原住民重點學校的原住民師資比例那大學是沒有但是我覺得原資中心原專班最起碼要去要求"},{"start":17422.056,"end":17422.276,"text":"我稍微帶過可以嗎?"},{"start":17450.281,"end":17459.41,"text":"一分鐘就好原專班也是我們很關心的那我現在這樣子講好了您應該知道一堆原專班正在關因為招不到學生但是呢為什麼因為他同樣的科系種類同時性太多"},{"start":17470.69,"end":17486.209,"text":"我要講的是說是不是到了我們要討論我之前有講過我希望教育部跟原民會討論一下原住民自治法有一天一定會有他是需要有一個原住民自治人才的培育搖籃那就是原住民主大學"},{"start":17486.75,"end":17501.714,"text":"那原住民族大學現在沒有但是我希望要規劃至少我們要培育原住民自治的人才要有哪些學系學門我們要有一個上位然後再去配合各大校應該這些大學院校要配合我們規劃這些學系學門來開設原專班而且原專班一定要設在大學的學門學系學院底下才有充足的師資能力那我先"},{"start":17514.278,"end":17523.507,"text":"稍微這樣帶過那我是希望說教育部是不是也盡量不是盡量去聽一聽辦理公聽會也好收集多方意見希望也只能可以在兩個月內先提出一個期程規劃方案那到時候我們再來討論這樣可以嗎部長"},{"start":17530.233,"end":17550.815,"text":"好,委員就是這,剛才委員關心的這兩個議題都是兩個月啦,不是兩週啦兩個月兩個月對,因為那個真的要兩個月先謝謝委員,這個一直在提醒倡議如果我們從原民研製中心的當時少數的學校到現在全面設置以及專班的設置,其實在概念政策上"},{"start":17551.375,"end":17552.176,"text":"接下來是中嘉賓委員"},{"start":17580.36,"end":17606.88,"text":"總嘉賓委員總嘉賓委員好登記質詢的委員都已經發言完畢另外有林倩琦委員跟呂玉玲委員提出書面質詢那關於今天的會議呢我們就做以下的一個決定那報告及答詢答完畢那委員所有提的這個書面質詢或是相關的資料我們會列入記錄並且刊登公報"},{"start":17608,"end":17622.205,"text":"對於委員質詢要求提供相關的資料或者是沒有答覆完整的部分我們就請相關機關盡速用書面的方法來做一個答覆報告委員會今天的議程處理完畢現在休息謝謝大家"},{"start":17701.135,"end":17701.596,"text":"﹗"}]}},{"id":"15684","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15684","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685471ce9aeb73a155c99e01fa654b137933be8d109af184be45b1b39e9608fdb7f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院食品安全辦公室、衛生福利部部長、食品藥物管理署就「食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅事件處理之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-04","start_time":"2024-03-04T08:30:29+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-04T13:26:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":17731,"委員發言時間":"08:30:29 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選舉結果"},{"start":1980.706,"end":2002.706,"text":"出席委員15人．發出票數15張．有效票數15張．開票結果為．王委員育敏8票．黃委員秀芳6票．及劉委員建國1票．由王委員育敏及黃委員秀芳．當選本會期本會召集委員．宣讀完畢好,請問委員會．針對上次的會議議事錄．有沒有錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":2004.554,"end":2019.599,"text":"如果沒有的話那我們議事錄確定那今天的議程是邀請行政院食安辦公室、衛福部部長、食品藥物管理署就食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅事件處理之檢討進行報告並備質詢那我想這個議題現在全國非常的關注因為蘇丹紅他這個從邊境入關之後現在連有名的"},{"start":2034.54,"end":2043.047,"text":"這一個海底撈火鍋店通通都受到波及我想影響國人的食安其實是非常重大的所以今天衛環委員會我特別安排這樣的一個專題我們希望可以深入的來探討這當中到底有哪一些的漏洞我們應該要補足現在我就介紹今天出席的委員還有列席的官員首先我們介紹的是蘇清泉委員"},{"start":2064.752,"end":2068.914,"text":"陳金輝委員盧憲一委員黃秀芳委員林月琴委員介紹今天出席的官員食安辦許輔主任衛福部薛瑞元部長食藥署吳秀美署長"},{"start":2091.488,"end":2114.776,"text":"護理及健康照護司蔡盈盈副司長醫事師郭威中專門委員中央健保署龐一鳴副署長還有疾管署陳淑芳檢認記證好我們謝謝今天列席的官員那接下來呢我們就要先請薛部長進行今天的報告時間5分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2123.823,"end":2133.214,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生本部奉貴委員會安排就食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅事件處理之檢討進行專案報告．並備質詢進行指教"},{"start":2142.39,"end":2166.832,"text":"有關食安五環政策執行的狀況自從105年蔡總統就任推行食安五環政策本部持續就源頭控管、重建生產管理、加強查驗、加重惡意黑心廠商的責任以及全民監督食安這五大面向的執行分數如下"},{"start":2167.833,"end":2180.056,"text":"第一,針對源頭控管、自力調合法規標準便與國際接軌,積極開發檢驗方法。針對食品風險程度較高的品項,在輸入前實施系統性查核,並透過輸入食品檢附輸出國官方衛生證明來把關。"},{"start":2191.959,"end":2208.305,"text":"此外,應用食安大數據進行高風險食品分析．發掘高風險產品類別。第二,針對於重建生產管理．推動食品業者權登錄．強化業者自主管理"},{"start":2209.245,"end":2224.771,"text":"對於大宗物資或消費者關切的食品業者關鍵業別．要求食品業者應該訂定食品安全監測計畫．辦理強制性檢驗及建立追溯追蹤管理系統等．"},{"start":2226.732,"end":2243.309,"text":"針對加強茶園部分,致力於精進稽查量能,國內食品茶園量逐年增加,透過把關市售輸入食品及市售國產食品的抽驗合格率均達到97%以上。"},{"start":2246.32,"end":2270.201,"text":"是針對加重惡意黑心廠商的責任對於不法廠商刻以更重的法律及賠償責任另外,強化與檢警機關合作建立衛生機關與檢察機關的聯繫平台並促成訂定檢察機關查緝食品藥物犯罪案件執行方案"},{"start":2271.702,"end":2288.488,"text":"正對全民監督食安．設立單一的食安專線來接聽提高監獄獎金的合法比例另外利用多元管道向民眾宣導正確食安的觀念包括發布食品類的闢謠文章等等"},{"start":2289.775,"end":2306.295,"text":"那對於蘇台辣椒粉非法添加蘇丹紅事件的處理那針對蘇台辣椒粉非法添加這個蘇丹紅的事件已經暫停受理違規的中國21家出口商及製造商輸入的查驗申請"},{"start":2308.197,"end":2314.259,"text":"並擴大抽驗檢驗蘇丹紅色素跟持續追蹤問題產品的下降問題。111年到112年,邊境抽中一共有143批辣椒粉來檢驗蘇丹色素,其中有9批不合格。"},{"start":2331.524,"end":2345.15,"text":"9批都依規定推運或消費,並沒有進入國內。112年5月間發現中國蔬菜的辣椒粉產品不合格率偏高,所以提高加強臭批查驗。"},{"start":2347.411,"end":2367.171,"text":"為採這個加強足皮查驗的措施之後那還有這一類的產品仍然有不合格的情勢發生所以從112年12月11日予採這個百分之百的足皮查驗檢驗合格後使得輸入那到今年3月1號在"},{"start":2369.093,"end":2378.299,"text":"後市場擴大抽驗,已經抽驗59批檢驗蘇丹色素,其中35批符合規定9批檢出蘇丹色素跟規定不符,還有15批在檢驗中"},{"start":2388.406,"end":2403.123,"text":"各地方政府、衛生局持續督導、查核、下游業者下架相關製品到113年3月1日一共下架及封存辣椒粉及其產品23,759.7公斤"},{"start":2409.11,"end":2422.896,"text":"當然,到今天為止,這個數字又往上攀升。地方衛生機關已經將3家的輸入業者及1家製造業者移送檢調來偵辦。從3月1日起,輸入食品無論在邊境或後市場,"},{"start":2427.518,"end":2453.774,"text":"被查或違反食安法15條第1項、第3款有毒或含有害人體健康的物質或衣物第7款、餐尾或假冒或第10款添加未經中央主管機關許可或添加有情勢者就依食安法3、4條所定立即停止相關業者、產品或產品輸入的查驗申請本部已經採取監禁措施"},{"start":2455.675,"end":2473.908,"text":"並強化風險疫情預判的功能．早發現問題．阻斷不法產品流入源頭．杜絕非法產品於境外．與針對蘇台辣椒粉非法添加蘇丹色素的事件．應採取堅定的措施．並強化風險預判的功能"},{"start":2477.35,"end":2498.646,"text":"已及早發生問題,未來在第一時間阻斷非法產品於境外。本部會透過持續落實食安五環政策,精進食品各環節的監督管理措施。本部呈大院各委員和指教和監督在此靜置卸策。"},{"start":2501.539,"end":2518.618,"text":"謝謝部長的報告有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始詢答先做以下的宣告本會委員會詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘請問委員有沒有意見"},{"start":2522.935,"end":2547.511,"text":"10點半截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於三會前提出預期不受理10點半會休息5分鐘原則上11點半會處理臨時提案所以如果委員有臨時提案請盡早提出以利益事進行接下來我們就邀請登記第一位的陳昭之委員進行質詢"},{"start":2556.974,"end":2585.999,"text":"好請薛部長部長委員好10天前我在陳院長的食安報告當中有提到一直都沒有美豬查場的報告那當時您告訴我有去查場也說馬上會把資料提供給本席但是過了10天之後我現在連報告都還沒有看到請問到底衛福部有沒有針對這個美豬進行查場"},{"start":2586.479,"end":2608.855,"text":"有,那這個部分的話食藥署他們簽報公文應該是在這一兩天會到我桌上來那我這邊簽過的話就會上網了解,我再要提的是王必勝次長提到2022年9月他有赴美查豬肉但是到目前為止兩種報告我們都沒有看到"},{"start":2611.477,"end":2617.162,"text":"我相信基層的公務員他們就有如實的寫報告但是為什麼沒有辦法順利的上傳公告呢因為理論上我們要知道兩種報告第一個就是行政機關他的內部查場報告這個報告應該是要讓立法院或立法委員瞭解的那第二個是國人"},{"start":2633.875,"end":2654.271,"text":"公務員出國報告他們有義務把這個公告上網所以到目前為止第一個兩種報告都沒有出現拖延了相當時間在2022年已經一年半了我們都沒有看到任何一篇一篇美豬的茶場報告這是第一個那麼第二個部長我要請教的是"},{"start":2656.793,"end":2666.161,"text":"在這個框框上您可以看到這個美牛茶場時間是2022年11月但是比這個更早發生的9月的美豬茶場11月的茶場報告出來了9月的茶場報告看不到中營部長"},{"start":2678.854,"end":2702.496,"text":"到底這個查美牛、美豬茶廠的報告到底是有什麼不可告人之處還有什麼難言之隱還是有哪一些不宜公告的地方嗎為什麼沒有不宜公告的地方但是11月的這個美牛茶廠報告都出來了但是美豬茶廠報告我氣盯都等不到啊"},{"start":2703.357,"end":2704.32,"text":"我跟委員報告過了,我們這一兩天就會上網以後這個時間請好好掌握"},{"start":2716.428,"end":2738.419,"text":"那下一張是臺灣的罹癌人數我們來看看這個是國健署提供的癌登等的罹癌人數那罹癌常見的危險因子我想部長您身為醫師您大概了解有好幾項那我今天就鎖定在其中一項叫做暴露於特定的化學物質"},{"start":2740.581,"end":2755.96,"text":"部長徐醫師應該了解,癌症的發生原因可能很多,據我們目前的了解,但是您是否同意癌症的發生跟國人長期的飲食習慣是有相當程度的關聯?部長同意嗎?"},{"start":2757.902,"end":2767.15,"text":"這個關聯性是應該是有的啦,但是委員知道嘛,這癌症的發生的原因通常都是多為危險,對所以,飲食習慣所佔的比例跟個別的癌症之間的關係的話,它的權重還是不太一樣"},{"start":2778.48,"end":2781.982,"text":"蘇丹紅已經被國際癌症研究機構列為第三類致癌物毒物專家嚴宗海醫師也有提到蘇丹紅最大的危害就是致癌而且如果常常吃、經常吃還會傷及腎臟跟肝臟"},{"start":2807.819,"end":2825.213,"text":"部長我要強調的重點是蘇丹紅的代謝物當中呈入這篇的報告代謝物當中有好幾項是被列為第二類的致癌物經過代謝後變成第二類的致癌物也就是說"},{"start":2826.494,"end":2827.896,"text":"請問追查有多少蘇丹紅的辣椒粉被國人吃下肚子,您認為重不重要?"},{"start":2843.852,"end":2859.472,"text":"這第三類的致癌物本身就是說從動物試驗或者其他的方面來看的話是有致癌的可能性但是對於人類的方面的這一個研究是沒有我剛剛提到了第三類的致癌物的定義就是說對動物"},{"start":2860.914,"end":2886.63,"text":"可能有出現這個致癌性但是對人類沒有但是我強調的吃下肚子以後經過代謝變成第二類第二類的意思就是對人類的致癌性是提高的是存在的有這個可能性部長我強調的是這一個致癌物本身有許多本來就是說它在人體室之內的這個代謝部長這個部分我是非常的了解但是它升級了所以我要強調說"},{"start":2887.791,"end":2903.486,"text":"追查國人到底吃下了多少量這個非常的重要因為證明說吃下以後的危險性更高這我們目前當然是在追查這個整個的進來的總量以及已經銷售出去的總量那我們回到這個新寶"},{"start":2907.97,"end":2935.369,"text":"新保的下游業者重疊性很高可見這個長期規則性的供應是存在的那我想了解的是為什麼這一份保新的下游業者有部分的公司他的名稱是被一半的部分的遮蔽就是為什麼衛福部對於下游廠商部分公開部分隱匿請問"},{"start":2937.945,"end":2956.812,"text":"這個做法是在迴避什麼在迴避什麼跟委員報告這一個部分的話是這樣當我們是比如說我們從保興這邊去追查那他的下游廠商那下游廠商的話我們就去還需要到進入這個不是啊有些是全民啊有些是部分遮蔽啊"},{"start":2959.032,"end":2982.303,"text":"這些下游的廠商我們還是要去取樣然後再來做檢驗大概能夠確認說他的接收到的這些產品的確是含有蘇丹紅部長的意思是說他必然是還沒有確定嗎還沒有確定之前我們會用這樣的圈圈因為他會有更下游的廠商但是紅豆加粉的毒性已經知道了他也購買了同一批次啊"},{"start":2984.144,"end":2984.344,"text":"那再再來是這個"},{"start":3010.37,"end":3037.227,"text":"在3月1號又增加了兩家業者那我想了解這兩家是否在去年被罰的21家中國出口商或製造商當中的名單之內是不是在這之內是在之內嗎是在之內那為什麼拖這麼久才對下游的廠商現在還在寫下游業者刻在調查中從12月到現在"},{"start":3040.621,"end":3065.123,"text":"這個該委員報告中國那邊的21家是已經確定的但是這21家我瞭解你在這個23名當中3月1號從新寶倉庫再度收住3萬多公斤這個跟衛福部封存的量簡直是數十倍之高那為什麼到去年年中衛福部就知道"},{"start":3066.124,"end":3070.676,"text":"有含蘇丹紅辣椒粉進口到台灣你再半年來只有去海關阻擋"},{"start":3071.994,"end":3076.538,"text":"那之前進來的量呢?之前進來的量,到底國人吃了多少?為什麼隱瞞不讓國人知道?在海關組黨,但之前進來的量呢?對,所以現在就是對於之前進來,因為之前不是100%抽批的時候我為什麼會一直追查這件事?因為我們的食安五環裡面就有清楚的食品雲系可以清查,為什麼不做呢?所以我們在意的不是在海關組黨,這個動作是對的"},{"start":3099.978,"end":3109.242,"text":"但是海關之前過去進口的量有多少被國人吃下肚子吃下以後代謝的毒性還更高這個部分是非常重要好最後一張我知道現在食藥署已經把熱令有問題的食品全部下架那這個週末我也到幾個賣場去看就是說我確實看到沒有這樣的產品了但是但是網路上在網路平台上我們還看到還有這個購買的這個資料在上面"},{"start":3129.758,"end":3149.79,"text":"部長、署長如果要做食安的法官網路平台是法外之地嗎?是可以不受食安法的規範嗎?無論實體的店鋪還是網站的平台你不能只做半套啊網站平台仍然有這個未下架的毒辣粉的零食在出售啊"},{"start":3151.401,"end":3151.902,"text":"接下來我們請陳金輝委員進行質詢"},{"start":3185.632,"end":3212.73,"text":"主席現場各位大家好我想邀請部長以及署長好部長署長請我們來一起討論大家知道臺灣其實經過統計我們有高達七成的人是外食族那是外食族的狀況下大家會對於這個食品的製造鏈其實比起其他國家是相當陌生的因此仰賴兩位長官為我們全民來把關是非常重要"},{"start":3213.649,"end":3241.203,"text":"但剛剛部長有提到說您覺得到現在源頭都還有一點不清楚所以您覺得食安五環是哪一環目前問題最大呢其實就這個事件來講的話並沒有說源頭不清楚因為我們已經把21家的這個中國進口的廠商那已經禁止他進口了所以這現在在追的就是還沒有100%抽菸之前"},{"start":3243.584,"end":3245.406,"text":"週末所有的媽媽所有的家長都已經被新聞嚇到了"},{"start":3264.421,"end":3279.314,"text":"目前的話,循線去追了59批那其中有30幾批是已經合格的那有差不多將近10批是不合格另外還在檢驗中的大概目前還剩下9"},{"start":3282.256,"end":3303.69,"text":"所以我們國家應該要讓人民食無不安國家應該要讓人民食無不安可是這幾天全國是寢食難安所以我們現在一起來檢驗檢討我們到底哪一方面可以繼續一起努力這個是衛福部食安週報寫的他說我們要去驗所有農產品的農藥量"},{"start":3306.132,"end":3324.078,"text":"餐油量是因為只要符合法定標準就不會對人體產生危害換言之假使超過了法定標準就會對人體產生危害所以這個是衛福部食藥署教育我們全體人民的但知道最近我們有多少進口的水果驗出農藥嗎"},{"start":3327.49,"end":3350.899,"text":"有一些日本的因為日本他們在種植草莓的時候那事實上他會使用我們國內沒有用的了解所以我們過去這兩年其實被我們邊境查獲退掉或是銷毀的高達快要100次的這個草莓其中都是驗出比如說亞昆蠻、亞滅培等等"},{"start":3354.656,"end":3376.763,"text":"福尼安等等的農藥這個您同意嗎是那有這樣子的不合格的原因好所以我們今年1月9號的時候食藥署印起來他正式對日本說請未來呢送來台灣的草莓都一定要符合台灣的法規所以暫停五家業者輸入一個月大家注意這個時間1月9號"},{"start":3380.373,"end":3394.277,"text":"但再來呢1月24號卻封向180度的轉變1月24號食藥署預告我們全國人民說我們即將修正日本進口這個草莓農藥的殘留容許標準請問在這15天我們的"},{"start":3400.459,"end":3429.585,"text":"行政流程啊、邏輯上是有什麼樣的觀念呢?這個修正農藥殘留的容許標準這件事情的話是之前更早的話他們就已經申請了那這個申請的案子我們就必須要去處理所以我們就提出預告那可以請部長稍微告訴我們大家像這樣子的草莓1月9號以前是不能吃的1月24號以後是可以吃的嗎?"},{"start":3430.282,"end":3431.724,"text":"請問兩位是如何訂出這個標準的這個新標準"},{"start":3451.114,"end":3473.581,"text":"這個是必須要參考我們專家的一些意見來定出來的以及說國際的一些表達我只能推論說也許在這15天我們選舉啊或者是外交啊像有什麼重大的突破因此讓我們1月9號跟1月24號對於草莓是不是全國人民可以安心吃的認定已經不一樣了我們來看一下"},{"start":3476.062,"end":3492.535,"text":"其實呢兩位在112年去年就已經為了這個農藥召開了至少三次會議喔我們發現有個福尼安好我們本來是零檢出但是呢後來遵守歐盟這個標準所以我們稍微要把他提高對吧"},{"start":3494.432,"end":3510.55,"text":"我們再來看另外三個您開放的不管是雅庫蘭克派凡、滅分座我們本來是零檢出但是Codex也是零檢出歐盟也是零檢出為何我們這三個就必須要去遵照日本的標準呢?"},{"start":3512.27,"end":3523.982,"text":"這當然還是要經過最後的審查是 所以您跟署長會在未來正式通過這些草苺以前會預告我們全國人民為何我們會做出這樣子的決策嗎"},{"start":3525.775,"end":3552.332,"text":"目前就是在預告的過程當中我們收集各方的一些意見那最後的話還是會有專家會議來做決定那看起來我們的橫向溝通也出了問題因為如果依照我們新的標準我們進口草苺有農藥不會依照食安法開法但我們國內的農民如果有用了以下這四種農藥的話是會依照農業管理法處罰的"},{"start":3554.453,"end":3574.081,"text":"進口跟國產的本來就這個標準不是完全一致的所以最後幫大家結論一下因為您曾經說我們可以拿來宣傳國內的草莓嗎對啊所以如果我們國產草莓是沒有這類的榮耀你大可以大大方方去做宣傳"},{"start":3575.26,"end":3575.941,"text":"昨天剛好我又在賣場"},{"start":3604.761,"end":3629.576,"text":"看到所有的海底撈都還在架上所以在這邊拿給大家展示一下其實到處都還買得到這個是我們有公布違規的一些批號那這些違規的批號一定要先下架"},{"start":3630.595,"end":3644.283,"text":"那現在你們會衛教我們全國的人民這些是否還能吃嗎?如果家裡還有的或是昨天賣場還有買到的?這部分我們會公布出來那這些違規的批號"},{"start":3646.984,"end":3673.227,"text":"還提到就必須要接受民眾的退貨是 剛有提到說其實第一次查驗到蘇丹紅已經是前年的事情了但是呢我們去年12月才開始逐批查驗一直到今年才限制他繼續進口我想問一下其實我們這樣拖了整整兩年國人吃下肚已經非常多了就是對 拖了一年"},{"start":3674.688,"end":3689.559,"text":"請問這樣子的流程是一種行政怠惰嗎?我跟委員稍微做一個解釋一開始在查辣椒粉是包括這個農藥還有一些可能是有中金屬等等這一類我們通通查"},{"start":3690.439,"end":3714.887,"text":"那後來是才發現說在5月以後的話發現說這一個含有蘇丹紅的批號的這個批次的比例是高的所以才逐步的把這個是但根據我查到的法規從第9條第10條第11條不管是第4款第5款其實當您認為有必要足以逐批查驗"},{"start":3716.047,"end":3736.713,"text":"都可以隨時開始其實不需要20%再到50%再到逐批查驗你引用你本來的法規就可以了但後來居然說我們新措施會在3月1號上路我們不再逐漸調高抽驗比例以前的法規都可以適用啊"},{"start":3737.634,"end":3738.154,"text":"對象是辣椒粉"},{"start":3754.332,"end":3780.438,"text":"那檢驗的這個項目裡面其實不合格大部分是農藥蘇丹紅是比較少數的但是當我們提高了這個比例之後才發現說蘇丹紅的比例所以意思是說當時你們不認為他是蓄意違法所以當時沒有逐漸調高抽驗的比例沒有沒有針對蘇丹紅去做這個提高管制的措施謝謝"},{"start":3781.698,"end":3785.701,"text":"我們希望這幾天的努力可以讓我們全國人民不用免於蘇丹紅的恐懼謝謝主席"},{"start":3816.018,"end":3819.519,"text":"好,接下來我們請廖偉祥委員進行質詢。有請薛部長就備詢台。好,請部長。委員好。"},{"start":3840.438,"end":3859.373,"text":"部長您好,去年5月22日到30日在日內瓦的第76屆世界衛生大會WHA的部分當時是由薛部長你帶領衛福部的官員組成世衛行動團去參加請教今年還是您帶團嗎?這我不確定"},{"start":3863.24,"end":3879.01,"text":"今年的世衛是在5月27的樣子那是在520之後所以我不確定所以慣例上都是有部長代團但是因為今年是涉及我們的新舊政府的這個交接所以這個很多"},{"start":3880.813,"end":3901.266,"text":"閣議員已經為了保住官位而動作不斷所以想要請教部長陳建仁院長已經表示跟蔡英文總統一起同進退不會留任所以想要請教部長您是否會爭取留任我不會去爭取好所以這個如果是所以代表是等於是您確定您跟這個"},{"start":3914.031,"end":3924.798,"text":"總之呢,我想要表達的是,事實上國人希望的是衛福部長是一位做事的部長,而不是來指揮做官的部長。那我相信,希望我們薛部長可以持續往這方向努力。"},{"start":3926.819,"end":3947.36,"text":"這個兩週前我質詢陳建仁院長的時候我反映這個中央政府輕視食安像是行政院食安會報的執行長也就是薛部長您在我質詢的陳院長那天當天算起來已經有333天沒有親自參加開會那直到今天已經有343天沒有參加這個食安會報了"},{"start":3950.031,"end":3973.245,"text":"我當時跟陳建仁院長提出行政院食安會報沒有依規定每3個月定期開會那當時您也是在旁邊長期缺席不過當時因為您感冒失聲沒有多做說明所以想要給您補充說明的機會不管是333天也好或是343天我想要請問是因為行政院其實沒有想要安排院長定期開會呢"},{"start":3974.426,"end":4000.945,"text":"還是因為實習太倉促讓你的執行長不得不缺席所以心裡覺得委屈?該會委員報告我之所以會請假沒有參加的話是因為到立法院的委員會一次是臨時會一次是專案的會議所以我必須要來這邊備選所以才跟行政院的食安匯報去做請假"},{"start":4002.086,"end":4023.292,"text":"是,但是還是沒有定期每3個月開一次?這個定期的開會的時間,那我們是報給行政院,但是行政院還是必須要看院長的時程來訂的所以訂了之後的話,那如果臨時立法院這邊委員會必須要有出席的話,我就不得不請假"},{"start":4024.897,"end":4050.038,"text":"所以重點是我想要表達的是第一個當然沒有定期開會代表第二個你們常常缺席所以代表對於這個食安匯報的不在乎我想也不能這樣講說不在乎如果說大院能夠下一個決議說如果遇到食安匯報那衛福部長可以請假不來立法院備選那我們也樂意接受"},{"start":4051.17,"end":4067.202,"text":"我覺得但是重點不是您有沒有出席不過沒關係我現在想要問說如果沒有意外的話你在卸任前還是會以執行長的身份來陪陳院長主持任內最後一次行政院的食安會報請問有安排好日期了嗎這我請那個行政院這邊來好"},{"start":4073.41,"end":4100.61,"text":"跟委員說明我們前一次的開會是在去年的10月份那這個原定在1月份會開會那那個時候因為種種原因可能跟選舉跟這個那我們現在正在簽報因為最近的這個西部特羅跟那個蘇丹紅我們從頭換題目針對是感謝你反正我下一個結論就是是還沒有排好日期"},{"start":4101.25,"end":4129.401,"text":"那希望你們盡快排那你們到時候會討論哪些題目包含現在工業用的添加物混入食品體系的老問題例如這次蘇丹紅事件是不是也會列為這個檢討改進的事項是,我們預計這一個會排進去是,好那有請我們行政院食安辦的徐副主任是,喂,委員好謝謝這個薛部長您是這個行政院食安匯報的執行長喔那"},{"start":4130.228,"end":4151.245,"text":"食安匯報不僅早行政院食安辦公室6年就先成立那連這個食安辦公室的官網也自己介紹自己的功能與願景的內容中都說行政院食安匯報是有法律的設置基礎而食安辦公室只是在政策的督導與執行而已那徐主任我想要請問"},{"start":4153.14,"end":4167.661,"text":"實驗室有沒有污染這個問題或是實驗室有沒有問題是政策的督導跟執行嗎?那徐主任你代表行政院在沒有任何科學證據下卻打臉慰福部這不就是政治黑手干擾專業嗎?"},{"start":4169.266,"end":4193.628,"text":"徐主任我覺得從這個蘇丹紅這一次這種工業用的添加物混入食品體系這種才是真正的督導就是政策督導與執行也就是你行政院要跨部會協調應該發揮的角色與功能請問這次蘇丹紅事件你行政院有沒有發揮政策督導與執行我們事實上"},{"start":4196.005,"end":4206.235,"text":"先從後面開始回來講蘇丹紅的部分事實上我們有從2月20號之後相當多的措施在包含在食安專報23號我們擴大的查驗剛部長有提到說21家的我們回溯總共抽"},{"start":4213.181,"end":4213.702,"text":"您剛剛有提到說這個"},{"start":4231.322,"end":4257.417,"text":"專家會議跟打臉那個部長其實沒有這個我們就是以專業看看看到什麼該怎麼樣的時候然後來參與並沒有所謂您剛剛講到說政策指導或怎麼樣我們從來沒有這樣的一個處理該怎麼處理就怎麼處理首先因為食藥署長跟我們部長當初也都說這個沒有問題不過我想這一頁翻過去了我想要直接討論的接續回來的是"},{"start":4259.758,"end":4285.765,"text":"這次驗出蘇丹紅的事件今年1月30日就驗出有蘇丹紅這批貨那這個進展到上週我們流入市面有更大擴大的風波那我從任何人都可以上網查到的邊境檢驗不符合食品資訊查詢系統查到從2024年1月30日回溯過去整整12個月光是辣椒粉在邊境就驗出蘇丹紅的案例有11例11件次數難道還不夠高嗎"},{"start":4290.649,"end":4295.53,"text":"一月底爆出這個流入市面的進口辣椒粉被驗出蘇丹紅而且還不是一個案件而是一天有兩件"},{"start":4317.304,"end":4328.653,"text":"只是剛好兩批流入這個市面的食品都是致癌蘇丹紅辣椒粉合計有28903公斤喔不好意思主席我們再這個多加兩分鐘那"},{"start":4331.576,"end":4349.465,"text":"這兩件案子的數量都還用偷機用單一事件來模糊就好像是疫情的時候把確診的黑數校正回歸一樣現在是黑心案件數都還要校正回歸嗎我想只要食安五環有做到位你一定可以回答這批合計28903公斤的致癌蘇丹紅"},{"start":4353.857,"end":4379.669,"text":"辣椒粉請問至今下架回收、查扣還有未流入市面的有幾公斤?流入市面的又有幾公斤?你可否知道這一區區一小瓶的胡椒粉一包零食如果用違法致癌蘇丹紅的這個辣椒粉也不過就是幾毫克的用量整整28903公斤的流向請問何以至今沒有公開?這豈不是食安五環的破功嗎?"},{"start":4381.209,"end":4402.335,"text":"請問部長要到什麼樣的氾濫程度才會真正的緊迫丁人好好的為人民把關我們的食品安全目前我們就是在緊迫丁人所以所有的這些不合格的這個廠商所進來的這一些辣椒粉的話我們全部去做後市場的精查那一共查了59批"},{"start":4404.696,"end":4410.428,"text":"其中有42批是合格的那11批是不合格的那還有6批還在檢驗中"},{"start":4412.083,"end":4436.686,"text":"謝謝部長那部長我直接跳到因為時間有限最後一題食藥署系統中可以查到這兩年以來12件含有致癌蘇丹紅的辣椒食品原料總重量我幫你算了一下其實總共有10萬8178公斤可是對比今天我們專案報告第7頁中所說你剛剛一直提到的總共9件只有5萬"},{"start":4438.766,"end":4458.16,"text":"五萬五千兩百七十五公斤的辣椒粉被驗出蘇丹紅我認為這衛福部在避重就輕因為所有辣椒食品當中有碰到蘇丹紅的總共有十萬多公斤辣椒食品並不只是辣椒粉但是衛福部卻在這個報告裡面這個報告明明寫的是蘇丹紅事件處理"},{"start":4460.642,"end":4477.2,"text":"卻置之不提蘇丹紅的辣椒食品有108,178公斤這實在是很扯所以換句話說蘇丹紅辣椒食品跟政府保證未流入市面的蘇丹紅辣椒粉兩者之間還差有52,903公斤的蘇丹紅辣椒食品"},{"start":4480.343,"end":4499.275,"text":"是沒有被衛福部交代清楚流向的。我想要請教部長這之間5萬多公斤的蘇丹紅的辣椒食品中目前在哪裡?有多少公斤確定流入市面查不到?又有多少公斤是被追回來的?你承不承認食安五環有破工並且因此要跟國人道歉?"},{"start":4501.601,"end":4518.702,"text":"這個所謂的五萬多公斤未流入市面是在邊境就被擋住了那所以我們現在在查的就是後市場當時沒有百分之百的一個抽菸的那可能就會有跑進來那我們循著這個我們的追蹤追溯系統正在查"},{"start":4519.443,"end":4546.27,"text":"那把這一些已經進來的那我們就逐批的再做一次檢驗所以這是我剛剛跟跟您報告的59批那目前的話有問題的這11批的話我們還會往下再去查所以換句話說就是有5萬多公斤目前還在追查中還沒有查出來沒有沒有沒有那麼多了沒有那麼多以前沒有那麼多好那我們可不可以要求部長在一個禮拜之內趕快把這些"},{"start":4547.23,"end":4570.688,"text":"差異的這些有問題的食品或是這個差異的數額提出報告給本席好那這檢驗中還有6批嘛這6批的檢驗結果出來之後我們會提供給這個委員好謝謝主席好謝謝謝謝部長好我們謝謝廖偉祥委員的質詢謝謝部長接下來我們請林月琴委員進行質詢"},{"start":4581.69,"end":4585.854,"text":"有請我們的薛部長和我們的食藥署的署長好 請部長跟署長委員好部長跟署長好接下來我們看食安五環事實上是在我們政府105年6月提出來"},{"start":4603.035,"end":4630.802,"text":"為了事實上是人民要去做把關的一個動作來下一頁那可是本次的蘇丹紅事件呢事實上非常考驗這件事我們的食安五環的成效那部長這次的事件我們可不可以這樣理解也就是說蘇丹紅至中國入境那逃過第一環的源頭管控到第五環的時候才被全民監督的食安機制揪出來"},{"start":4633.83,"end":4638.414,"text":"如果事實上是到第五環的話那在此本席肯定第五環的把關機制讓漏網之魚不漏結但源頭管理更重要下一頁"},{"start":4658.356,"end":4658.376,"text":"委員長"},{"start":4679.301,"end":4696.15,"text":"接到在2月7號接獲雲林縣的衛生局的通知有民眾陳情緊接著2月20號開始啟動有一連串的動作那請問部長2月7號接獲通知20號開始動作你覺得這個速度夠不夠迅速"},{"start":4697.689,"end":4705.86,"text":"這一個部分的話其實是在2月20之前我們已經就是擋住了未來的這21家的廠商不讓他繼續來進口"},{"start":4712.728,"end":4714.489,"text":"所以我緊接著就要問報告中提到衛福部在"},{"start":4740.805,"end":4741.286,"text":"請問一下各級你的判斷標準是什麼"},{"start":4762.783,"end":4776.712,"text":"跟委員報告,其實這個茶宴的一直這樣子升級是因為茶宴出來有不合格但是這不合格不是只有蘇丹是主要還是大部分是農藥的不合格"},{"start":4777.712,"end":4805.58,"text":"過去我們在邊境查驗這些產品那有這種農藥的不合格的話我們的處理的方式大約就是這樣子只是到後來發現說蘇丹紅的因為加強抽屁嘛那比例就增加卻發現說蘇丹紅驗出來的比例也跟著增加甚至那比例還超過這個抽屁比例的增加所以我們這個focus在移轉到特別是在蘇丹紅上面因為這個是不准檢出的東西"},{"start":4806.4,"end":4830.564,"text":"你報告也提到接下來要強化風險的預警分析,針對高違規跟高關注的產品資訊,還有高風險的廠商特定對象來做名單做預判。那作為風險管控參考,所以請問一下判斷的標準是什麼?是不是特定國家出境的食品跟原料都會列入?"},{"start":4832.113,"end":4853.347,"text":"這個當然也不排除作為一個風險警示的一個判斷的依據之一當然主要是這風險判斷就是要看風險風險的高低風險高低一般來講就是說它發生的頻率是有多高第二個就是說它所造成的危害有多嚴重大部分是用這兩個作為主要的判斷依據當然從這兩個主要的判斷依據來看的話"},{"start":4857.95,"end":4858.53,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":4884.326,"end":4888.041,"text":"當食安事件發生的時候民眾事實上是自為恐慌"},{"start":4889.039,"end":4915.53,"text":"尤其在境內接獲證違反通報的時候勢必我們的媒體會高度關注引發民眾恐慌可是也是假消息流竄可是光靠衛福部的特定發布的一些新聞稿是不夠的因為民眾要知道我現在買的食物甚至我家的食物是不是這些食品是不是夠安全那當然最需要的就是要有一個即時性的平台"},{"start":4916.17,"end":4942.622,"text":"那當然我覺得食藥署一定會回答我說有啊我們有食品查核跟檢驗資訊平台可是不好用為什麼呢因為針對今天的主題叫做蘇丹紅事件本席做了一個查詢結果查不資料所以到底是更新的問題還是因為規則的問題所以我很疑惑那民眾也是所以請問署長為何在平台上找不到蘇丹紅事件的一些資訊"},{"start":4945.729,"end":4965.843,"text":"我們這個平台事實上是針對的品項就是做相關的一個品項然後做檢驗之後的一個結果會做登錄不過這個地方這裡委員是輸入的是蘇丹紅是比較不像是我們平常登錄的一個模式"},{"start":4967.237,"end":4993.798,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下其實這個資訊平台原先最主要的目的是供我們各地的衛生局還跟業者之間的一個可以來做查詢當初設計並沒有主要是針對民眾所以在裡面有一些品項什麼這些的編號或者所使用的名稱的話跟民間所知道的是不一樣的"},{"start":4994.418,"end":5013.094,"text":"那這個部分的話我們可以來再進一步來規劃我們來找經費那把這個再來做一些我建議齁就是如果是規則問題齁因為有些廠還沒有辦法登錄的話是不是建議平台頁面上增加兩個連結一個是食品安全的即時新聞讓民眾查的時候可以瞭解"},{"start":5013.533,"end":5037.074,"text":"再來就是食品安全的相關闢謠的網頁那下一頁不好意思主席再給我一些時間那前面講說事實上是第五環我們的全民把關所以接避者非常的重要的確確實食品安全衛生管理法裡邊第43條有規定也就是檢舉人資訊要保密那在56條之一也用發放獎金來鼓勵檢舉"},{"start":5037.995,"end":5038.135,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5060.037,"end":5087.336,"text":"如何確保我們的接避者的資訊不洩漏還有對於故意洩漏的你的處罰是什麼對於過失的洩漏的你的處罰又是什麼這份報告這一個公務人員對於這些我們已經訂有說必須要保密的那你無故把它洩漏的話就會違反這個刑法的洩密罪刑法的洩密罪有故意有過失"},{"start":5088.237,"end":5096.564,"text":"本席認為臺灣食品安全的法制竟然完備但是政府的螺絲不能鬆懈特別是中國利用各種手段在製造臺灣內部的危機的時候企圖影響我們的士氣所以政府應該更謹慎應對所以這一波食安問題"},{"start":5117.806,"end":5125.99,"text":"請政府部門趕快處理,來安心。以上,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝委員。好,我們謝謝林月琴委員的質詢。謝謝部長。接下來我們請圖全級委員進行質詢。好,謝謝。好,謝謝趙偉。那請我們部長跟署長。好,請部長跟署長。"},{"start":5150.069,"end":5156.573,"text":"委員好部長、署長、召委我們大家好那全集今天在委員會第一次的質詢好那針對針對我們"},{"start":5167.247,"end":5194.463,"text":"我們可以進行下一頁那個我們看一下我們針對我們2020到2023我們這個十大民怨事件我們看一下這個民進黨政府這十大民怨事件這前五名裡面就有三個跟我們衛福部有關係然後而且其中兩個還關係到我們的食安而且還高居第一名跟第四名所以現在再加上這個蘇丹紅的事件"},{"start":5195.103,"end":5210.711,"text":"我覺得國人對我們食品安全的信心可以說是全面崩潰而且可惜我們在2月22號陳建仁院長在我們食安專報跟答詢之中我們看不到我們民進黨政府針對這食安問題的謙卑跟檢討"},{"start":5214.113,"end":5236.781,"text":"而是看到這執政8年了還在找我們的馬英九前總統來做這個救援投手人家說什麼馬維拉以前楊基的救援投手叫李維拉很有名後來民進黨執政以後我們這個馬維拉也是有名的一個救援投手但是不知道這看在百姓的眼裡這個民怨其實一直在積累"},{"start":5238.018,"end":5255.036,"text":"那當然我們現在回到我們今天的主題針對我們這次這個蘇丹紅的事件我們這個事件爆發的開始是由雲林縣政府接獲民眾的舉報那也就是說蘇丹紅這個違法的染色劑的使用"},{"start":5255.717,"end":5277.863,"text":"我想請問一下是不是已經都到了我們後市場端而且這次由保鑫企業進口的蘇丹紅危機等於說是突破了我們邊境茶葉的層層的防衛而且在2023年9月的時候你們就說要加強抽茶比例甚至到50%那為什麼還有這麼多的漏網之魚"},{"start":5279.043,"end":5301.539,"text":"請部長回答的確啦因為如果不是百分之百的一個抽批的話那總是會有沒抽到的那當時我們並不知道說他這一個發生的比例是多少所以50%的抽批的話那到底會有多少批那會漏啊這個我們在當時並不知道"},{"start":5302.259,"end":5324.366,"text":"那現在是我們回溯那才逐步的去做檢查那才循線的再去看往下游那邊到底是有多少那我們也感謝雲林縣衛生局那能夠在這個後市場的部分第一個去因為有人檢舉然後他去做了這個稽查那的確是發現到有這個問題"},{"start":5328.627,"end":5344.858,"text":"好部長那我也知道所以我的意思說你看已經提升到50%那居然都還那麼多漏防資源我相信現在還有更多的未爆彈現在一一在爆發那我想請問一下過去一年我們的邊境查驗中我們蘇丹紅總共查到幾件"},{"start":5347.158,"end":5360.596,"text":"過去一年,就是說112年度的時候,那蘇丹紅是有7件那所有的不合格是22件那其中蘇丹紅的是7件,那其他大概都是農藥不合格"},{"start":5361.457,"end":5361.617,"text":"陳建成議員"},{"start":5392.137,"end":5415.128,"text":"編進查驗這麼多問題為什麼從頭到尾都沒有提到蘇丹紅的事件因為那個時候還繼續在查當中我們不知道他影響層面是有多大因為在去年的話是7件那後來是有今年的年初又多了2件所以再變成9件所以編進查驗那時候查到並不需要"},{"start":5416.232,"end":5433.523,"text":"提出檢討甚至告知國人針對這部分要來注意嗎?所以我們就是依照我們的一些規定的話我們逐步的增加抽批的比例嘛後來100%抽批之後發現說蘇丹紅的這個違規事件的比例仍然是高"},{"start":5434.423,"end":5447.62,"text":"我現在是擔心當初如果沒有雲林縣政府這個民眾舉報你看我們這個明明知道我們政府早就知情而且這不是首例那是不是讓我們感覺要把這個今年2月這民眾舉報這個蘇丹紅事件當成首例來辦"},{"start":5450.584,"end":5464.829,"text":"沒有沒有,在去年的話就已經那個到了百分之一百了,那所以百分之一百發現說有的話,其實是我們是在全部的那個暫停輸入,2月20就全部暫停"},{"start":5467.25,"end":5487.479,"text":"那我針對齁我們其實查驗到邊境查驗已經查驗到9件那9件裡面你看一下這裡面加管國際齁加管國際其實在1月份的邊境查驗他就已經查到的可是邊境查驗查到結果居然在你們3月2號食藥署的新聞稿裡面"},{"start":5488.78,"end":5504.988,"text":"又說在地方政府的配合下在後市場端又查到加廣國際貿易的辣椒粉一月份邊境查到三月份居然在後市場端又有那我不知道邊境查到以後居然又進入市場我不知道這到底是什麼原因"},{"start":5506.248,"end":5533.504,"text":"在邊境查到的部分我剛剛有跟這個委員報告即使是我們全面禁止是在2月20才全面禁止那但是去年的12月11的話就已經是百分之一百那我們一月份查到那沒有針對他下游的部分去追溯嗎那為什麼還會留到後市場端不是那12月11的話那事實上是在查院百分之一百如果查到就不准進口了"},{"start":5534.424,"end":5561.383,"text":"所以這個部分的話是不會有漏網我覺得這個我要跟部長講一下你們一直常常說這是個案問題我覺得這根本就是系統性真的是系統性已經出現了很大的問題我們陳建財院長一直治好這個食安五環我說實在這看起來這食安五環真的是早就已經破功了而且這個溯源追溯早就已經失去它的功效"},{"start":5561.903,"end":5582.778,"text":"有啦還是它的功效仍然存在所以我們現在才能夠追出那麼多啦那當然食安五環還是有改進的空間啦這我們也必須承認所以我說這個我覺得很多東西真的我們如果發現還是要盡早來看怎麼來檢討怎麼改善我們看我們針對我們"},{"start":5585.18,"end":5594.566,"text":"行政院明明這個蘇丹紅危機去年就已經爆發可是我們看我們三次的食安會報跟一次食安專報我們的總檢討對於蘇丹紅真的是隻字未提我們說"},{"start":5600.45,"end":5601.391,"text":"因為這個有一些事件他是必須要看累積的啦"},{"start":5631.414,"end":5652.433,"text":"主席抱歉可以給我兩分鐘會是比較我們只是增加關注或者是稽查的一個比例但是我們如果統計比如說整個半年來看的話它的數量就可能會跟以前去比的話就可能是高的所以這個是必須要做經過一些比較"},{"start":5653.234,"end":5673.564,"text":"所以部長我是希望我們很多東西大家真的務實來做像我一直想起那次陳建仁院長在立法院那個報告我覺得真的是牛皮吹破現在這個食安將陸陸續續爆發而且還一直大內宣說這個食安五環做得有多好那現在我覺得真的是有很大的諷刺我們說實在話當初"},{"start":5675.605,"end":5689.357,"text":"聯合報就有寫他說蔡政府才是我國最大的系統危機我覺得很多事情知道以後真的要趕快檢討不要沒有提出檢討而且毫無改善然後我們看一下我們這個食安五環"},{"start":5690.518,"end":5718.187,"text":"你看這個五環源頭控管重建生產管理加強查驗加重惡意黑心廠商責任最後才到全民監督食安結果我們這次爆發居然是民眾檢舉這是最後一環欸所以表示我們的前四環完全螺絲鬆脫執行力根本不利如果今天沒有民眾檢舉這個事情怎麼會爆發那我們前四環是不是等於根本就是失效了已經警覺到了啊"},{"start":5718.927,"end":5740.92,"text":"所以我希望這個食安五環這很好的政策真的我們需要好好的落實來去做而且我希望我們國民民眾的健康真的我們這個主管單位真的要我呼籲真的要好好的為我們國民的健康好好的來把關那針對蘇丹紅還有食安的問題希望我們衛福部"},{"start":5744.782,"end":5762.792,"text":"還有食藥署針對這些問題希望好好的檢討改善以及後續萬一有因為蘇丹紅造成這個健康的問題我們一定要訂立一個良好的補救措施好謝謝好謝謝滕委員那繼續我們謝謝部長繼續我們請王一鳴委員"},{"start":5773.735,"end":5773.956,"text":"主席"},{"start":5783.112,"end":5789.614,"text":"部長好我想今天本席安排有關於蘇丹紅這個食安事件的一個檢討主要就是看到這次的事件確確實實就是一個系統性的食安問題從邊境長驅直入進到臺灣之後然後因為它是原料型的食品長驅直入直接擴散到每一個下游"},{"start":5808.378,"end":5832.045,"text":"現在包括這個零食夏蕙仙還有包括連這個這個咖哩粉還有就是這個知名的海底撈火鍋店通通都中標還有我們的一些咖哩粉有部分的食品還輸出到國外所以這一次的這個事情不容小覷因為查到目前為止剛剛部長你也說還在查"},{"start":5835.906,"end":5857.282,"text":"還沒有結束所以這次食安風暴本期看起來其實是大的那我認為這次食安風暴會這麼大第一個就是我們的邊境沒有守好他就是從邊境闖進來的我問一下部長事實上你們的報告已經提到了在去年5月就發現了第一起蘇丹紅但是當時你們做了什麼去年5月你們發現的時候做了什麼"},{"start":5861.621,"end":5880.807,"text":"就開始把這個抽批的比例調整那原來進口的這家廠商你有去做加強針對這個進口原料廠的一個查驗或者是加研他的措施嗎?剛剛你有回答21批當中現在發現的在去年5月有同一家是哪一家?"},{"start":5881.886,"end":5882.987,"text":"那結果你們做了什麼呢?"},{"start":5900.234,"end":5914.98,"text":"因為我們大概不太可能跑到中國去對於這一個原料廠去做查核所以當然就是針對的是這一個我們的進口廠商來做加強抽屁的一個動作"},{"start":5915.902,"end":5929.547,"text":"因為我覺得在去年你們發現第一起這個蘇丹紅事件的時候你們應該就要有所示警那看起來去年你們僅針對從20%到50%這個就是不夠的所以你看你如果現在往回頭看你是到3月1號才宣布說一驗到有問題就全面禁止輸入"},{"start":5939.85,"end":5940.751,"text":"本席要講的是你剛剛一直在提到說高風險那我要問你"},{"start":5958.553,"end":5977.188,"text":"到什麼樣的程度才叫做高風險如果以過去蘇丹紅他就已經是大家違反偏家的一個工業原料的話為什麼去年沒有一開始就針對這樣子採取一個更嚴格的措施那你所謂的高風險要到什麼程度才叫高風險"},{"start":5978.148,"end":5978.349,"text":"本席要求這一類"},{"start":5999.768,"end":5999.788,"text":"致詢問題"},{"start":6017.353,"end":6018.414,"text":"所以像蘇丹紅色我們就會把它列進來"},{"start":6038.093,"end":6051.598,"text":"本席要求另外一個我發現是你們的查驗人力根本也不足啦坦白講你們在報告裡面的110年就告訴大家說你們邊境人要增加21人這個麻煩署長看一下你們說要增加這個21人結果呢你們到目前為止5年只增加一個人我不知道問題出在哪裡"},{"start":6063.888,"end":6064.969,"text":"正式人力確實是如果有機會也希望可以增加"},{"start":6089.115,"end":6111.588,"text":"從110年到現在 我覺得這個行政院也太不重視了吧我們還成立食安辦 那個徐副主任你們食安辦沒有用力爭取嗎我們現在從蘇丹紅事件發現我們的邊境查驗是多麼重要的事情每一位委員都要求要加強提高這個抽驗比例結果你的人力五年來只增加一個人"},{"start":6112.589,"end":6125.69,"text":"那你怎麼增加你的抽驗比例徐副主任你代表行政院為什麼不能給衛福部這個邊境查驗的人力這個對外說說得很好聽要增加21名結果只有增加一個人"},{"start":6131.681,"end":6144.654,"text":"本席要求一定要補足人力要不然你讓第一線的查驗人員他怎麼辦每一個人都要求查驗的比例增加然後他加班加到爆肝結果也達不到啊因為人就是不足啊部長"},{"start":6145.975,"end":6170.498,"text":"這部分的話第一個正式人力我們會再來跟院這邊來爭取那博偉也跟委員報告非正式人力在110年我們是80人那113年我們預計會達到97人但是他屬於非正式人力這一定是要正式人力因為國人對於食安的要求這些查驗人力不可以是用臨時的人你絕對是要正式的編制這是本席的要求"},{"start":6171.078,"end":6183.346,"text":"另外這次事件也凸顯兩岸在食安的合作上面有沒有通報機制的重要性本席手上有這個零食這個是對岸的零食現在很多小朋友也很喜歡吃那這一次從我們進口的辣椒粉發現有這麼嚴重的添加蘇丹紅的問題那表示說對岸他們在原料生產上面有些東西是有疑慮的我請問包括這次的三合制藥我們查到了"},{"start":6200.998,"end":6201.538,"text":"在包圍我們是有對對岸來做通報"},{"start":6224.588,"end":6250.54,"text":"有通報是不是?那目前包括高雄那三家也是山河製藥嗎?還是另外一家?他工廠是不一樣,但是好像地址是一樣都是山河製藥?是另外一家?中國那邊是另外一家不過好像是地址是一樣同一個地址不同的名稱嗎?台灣的部份"},{"start":6253.781,"end":6277.47,"text":"對,那大陸,我現在要知道是說從大陸進來的,這個這幾批,你們說21批有問題的,是只有三合製藥這一家有問題,還是還有其他家的這個製造廠也是有問題?進口商是包括三合啦,也包括加廣,還有金站吧,有這幾家啦,這是進口商啦,但是那個製造商是"},{"start":6281.191,"end":6303.318,"text":"山河是那個製造商啦,台灣的話是...所以大陸有幾家製造商有問題,我在問的是這個大概是目前看到的是主要是兩家,一家叫Kevin,一家叫山河好,那本席還要再追問是目前為止還有沒有中國大陸進口的其他廠商就是說不同的製造廠一樣是辣椒粉進到台灣的,還有沒有"},{"start":6305.717,"end":6324.618,"text":"有21家的製造廠目前有21家那個被我們禁掉全部有42家你禁掉21家合格的是有21家那不合格的有21家都是各21家那這合格的21家你們是百分之百抽院嗎?"},{"start":6325.864,"end":6344.651,"text":"對,到後面都是...所有辣椒粉的進口,你們都已經是百分之百抽菸?我們後市場也繼續都在抽菸當中,但其實我們這百分之百抽菸不是只有針對中國,是...所有的世界各國,只要是辣椒粉品項,你們現在都是百分之百的抽菸嗎?對不對?"},{"start":6346.232,"end":6361.209,"text":"好 那另外一個本席要問的是食品雲我們的食品雲現在的登錄到底是怎麼回事這個本席辦公室去查現在查到的比如說像這個蝦味仙他們提供的資訊都是2017年的"},{"start":6363.852,"end":6365.673,"text":"109年監察院說食品雲只有2%的業者建立追蹤追溯系統那請問現在是幾%?到目前為止登錄了幾%?"},{"start":6388.82,"end":6390.261,"text":"109年監察院指出來只有兩趴"},{"start":6408.265,"end":6423.997,"text":"那你們目前掌握到底已經登錄了幾趴?而且他們的資訊都沒有更新喔這個是當時我們在討論食安問題食品雲也花了非常多錢來建置那後續的整個管理我覺得這個部分衛福部真的要加強"},{"start":6425.458,"end":6446.682,"text":"這部分的話目前登記上去的是有一萬多家一萬多家的廠商其實食品營這是有兩個部分一個就是說我們還是會持續鼓勵這個廠商進來登記那他的這個訊息的更新我們可能也必須要定期要去這一個去檢核"},{"start":6449.543,"end":6478.715,"text":"另外的話就是有一些對一般民眾的那這應該要有一個從這邊這一個能夠出來是比較user friendly的對 你們現在這個部分都做得不好所以一般消費者要去查詢其實很難用那這個部分本是要求你們針對食品與你的登錄要提高他的那個登錄的這個加速另外從消費者端他查詢也應該是要讓他們更方便來查詢而且要求"},{"start":6479.255,"end":6479.916,"text":"接續我們由邱正軍委員執行"},{"start":6509.415,"end":6511.361,"text":"我們一樣有請我們的薛部長"},{"start":6517.816,"end":6540.319,"text":"委員好部長你好我們還是一樣聊我聊聊我們這個蘇丹紅的問題剛剛我想很多委員都有提到同樣的問題這邊我就不再多講那我這樣看我們從事情發生到現在從到3月1號3月2號也陸續檢出這個我們食品中還有添加這個蘇丹紅"},{"start":6542.341,"end":6555.653,"text":"昨天連海底撈也中標了問題在我看來是不斷滾雪球越滾越大我很懷疑的就是說我們的食安五環到底是出了什麼問題"},{"start":6559.457,"end":6580.802,"text":"這部分的話其實食安五環還是運作還是應該說是差強人意今天這個辣椒粉添加蘇丹紅這件事情當然在源頭控管的部分我們在目前並沒有一個所謂的即時"},{"start":6583.342,"end":6608.847,"text":"我這樣講啦 因為剛剛我也聽了很多那我知道我們很早就發現這個蘇丹紅已經有進到台灣來那當時我們抽驗的只是2%到10%嘛 對不對然後再增加到50%那我在想在2%到10%當我們有驗出來有蘇丹紅的時候我們只是提高了檢驗的標準有沒有去追溯我們這2%、10%到底跑去哪裡"},{"start":6611.943,"end":6639.17,"text":"就是說沒有檢驗到的部分我這樣講我應該這一類產品進來的時候我們是不是當查到它有問題的時候是不是就應該要追它的流向當然你剛剛講到大陸那邊我們沒有辦法去干涉它可是我們的下游是不是能夠去追蹤因為這已經跑到我們的國內了那民眾很容易就會吃到所以這是非常嚴重的問題"},{"start":6639.85,"end":6667.961,"text":"我想,我們衛福部這邊有沒有做什麼處理?跟委員報告,其實是這樣,如果被我們檢查出來的有問題的那一批的話,基本上就不能進入到我們的市場了。就會退役了。但是你剛剛部長講了,那個時候你只有抽2%、2%到10%嘛,對不對?那其他的勒?有90%的東西你是沒有驗到。所以說,這個抽驗的比例是比較低是沒有錯,但是我們是跟...我們就以20%來算啦齁。"},{"start":6669.381,"end":6680.675,"text":"如果這樣回退回去我認為我們進到國內的至少有20公斤的這個蘇丹紅進到我們台灣來那是不是這20萬公斤已經讓我們民眾吃下肚"},{"start":6685.205,"end":6705.787,"text":"可能沒有辦法不是用這樣去回推啦好那我這樣講啦那我們現在在追我們後來在驗的這個補驗的這些東西那我們到現在上次剛剛部長講59批嘛那29號那天我們的林副署長他還說是63批到底是59還是63"},{"start":6708.262,"end":6709.563,"text":"目前應該是59批那在之前的呢?"},{"start":6715.27,"end":6744.634,"text":"因為在擴大抽檢之前的話有4批已經是已經抽完這樣子啦本席建議啦就是說不管幾批那我認為說既然現在問題已經發生了我們大家一起努力協助來解決這個問題才是重點那我也希望我們衛福部這邊能夠認真一點我們把之前有可能會有疑慮的這些產品能夠去追讓我們的國人能夠在食安方面能夠得到更多的保障可以嗎"},{"start":6745.473,"end":6752.825,"text":"是當然是我們現在努力在做的就是這件事情那我們現在是不是已經完全掌握到污染的原料的流向"},{"start":6754.495,"end":6778.824,"text":"對,所以就是已經會有這種漏網之魚的話,現在我們就是正在追查。我們是否已經全面的下架還有回收我們已製成的這個產品?因為漏網之魚指的是說當時並沒有抽驗到的,但是並不表示說他一定是不合格。所以當我們去追的時候,我們還是必須要再驗。"},{"start":6780.08,"end":6809.36,"text":"因為這樣子啦我們昨天還在這個還發現我們市面上還買得到這個海底撈我們還是看得到那我現在有兩個問題就是說我們既然已經是知道這個問題了那為什麼產品還在架上那剛剛還有談到一個我們網路平台銷售的問題那我也希望衛福部這邊能夠針對尤其是網路平台上面的這個銷售平台的這個問題能夠做一個控管那另外"},{"start":6810.12,"end":6828.122,"text":"我也要幫我們民眾來問一下,如果買到類似的產品的時候,當還沒實用,能不能退貨?能不能退款?如果是我們有問題的這些產品,同一批號的話,我們是會要求廠商必須要接受退貨。"},{"start":6829.544,"end":6850.978,"text":"那我本期看到這個寄生公司在事發後仍然在我們的公司的網頁上還有刊登還有刊登這樣的一個貨品然後還有刊登我們的食藥署的輸入許可我想這部分會造成我們大眾的一個誤導這是非常嚴重的那當然我們在"},{"start":6852.018,"end":6871.958,"text":"衛福部在知道這件事情的時候,我們已經請他暫停作業以及停止販售,這個沒有問題,但是為什麼我們要求他公司停產,卻沒有要求他停售可疑的產品呢?停產,下架就是不能賽售了問題他還在賣啊,像這個怎麼辦呢?"},{"start":6874.903,"end":6902.281,"text":"它是不同批或者是說不同的產品如果是這樣的邏輯的話,那我們的民眾食品的這個食安的這個保障在哪裡呢?但是不同批,它已經是經過檢查是合格的,你要把它禁掉可能也必須要有這個法律上的意義那我想請問部長,您認為這是蘇丹紅的辣椒粉的這個"},{"start":6903.717,"end":6928.81,"text":"案例是個案還是同案?還是系統性的?這是系統性的問題這是系統性的問題這樣子啦我想這樣子在我發現我們在尤其在保鮮公司保鮮公司下游的業者、計程公司被查出蘇丹紅辣椒粉原料我們送SGS去公司檢驗的時候已經被告知蘇丹紅的有蘇丹紅的成分那當然"},{"start":6929.87,"end":6951.723,"text":"後來那個公司又改造這個檢驗報告出貨到大賣場並賣出許多產品那我們檢方在3月1號搜索保興公司的時候發現保興公司下游業者曾經自主送驗發現含有蘇丹紅3號並退回保興公司那我要問的是為什麼我們檢驗公司沒有主動通報"},{"start":6953.164,"end":6972.562,"text":"我們衛福部他只是退回因為這一個部分屬於廠商的自主自主檢驗本席建議好不好本席建議我們是不是可以讓檢驗公司納入食安通報的機制裡面這我們來研議我想這個才是這他也是可以幫我們來把關的一個地方"},{"start":6976.67,"end":6976.81,"text":"所以應該沒有對立"},{"start":6995.972,"end":7015.46,"text":"我們看到吵吵鬧鬧的目前其實是合作在蘇丹紅這件事情在三地方合作最後我做個結論就是說我們當然請政府重視食安的安全對於食安的五環我們盡量的來讓他嚴格來執行那另外當然剛剛我提到的協辦請這個檢驗公司納入這個通報機制"},{"start":7020.043,"end":7036.983,"text":"最後再請問部長苗栗縣每萬人口的醫師人員或病床數都遠低於我們全國的平均值醫療資源不足及分佈不均我們真的是非常期待改善"},{"start":7038.004,"end":7067.102,"text":"那當然我也知道部長在這個不苗集中症大樓的部分已經協助了非常的多已經流標4次那我們當然看到我們公產款已經提到1.7億提高1.7億到11.3億那這部分我謝謝部長的協助那麼當然我們更希望就是說我們的放射腫瘤中心擴建工程那目前已經流標10次了那可能也是因為設計發包的時候的金額不足的問題"},{"start":7067.742,"end":7074.131,"text":"那我這邊也再請這個部長協助可以嗎?現在有增加現在增加了?增加多少?應該是到28萬28萬?"},{"start":7080.245,"end":7107.018,"text":"謝謝部長當然我也希望說這個部分能夠盡快的完成另外我們布苗旁邊的那塊地本來本需要協助幫我們布苗取得那因為拖太久那價格差了一點點現在很可惜被建商買走了那當然我也希望說我們會再另覓土地希望我們衛福部這邊來協助讓我們把我們苗栗的醫療提升可以嗎是當然是我們的目標"},{"start":7109.198,"end":7109.738,"text":"好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":7148.852,"end":7149.292,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7179.063,"end":7179.663,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7441.155,"end":7443.277,"text":"好 請大家入座 我們繼續開會接下來我們請黃秀芳委員進行質詢謝謝主席 我們請部長好 請部長"},{"start":7472.771,"end":7489.051,"text":"部長好,今天食品安全、蘇丹色素我想請教部長,我們看到衛福部在針對中國疏路的辣椒粉,其實在去年5月份的時候你們也有針對辣椒粉"},{"start":7491.233,"end":7491.273,"text":"主席"},{"start":7509.646,"end":7512.068,"text":"昨年12月抽驗比率達到百分之百從20%到百分之百是因為邊境抽驗結果不合格率越來越高"},{"start":7534.864,"end":7537.407,"text":"這個部分去年從5月開始到12月的時候100%的竹皮查驗這中間其實是我們發現說它的違規的比例"},{"start":7559.767,"end":7581.945,"text":"是居高不下,你抽更多並不會說比例下降,而是比例還一樣,甚至更高所以我們才逐步的一直加強抽批不過要在這邊再度說明,就是在當時抽批所謂的不合格的話是包括農藥"},{"start":7583.526,"end":7611.605,"text":"是包括農藥,並不是只有針對蘇丹紅去做那我想請教部長,就是說我看到就是說你們在12月份已經是抽驗比率是達到百分之百那到隔年113年的1月底就是有人就是地方政府有收到檢舉那像這樣就是說我們既然都已經抽驗這個比率都已經到百分之百那為什麼沒有在邊境就已經"},{"start":7612.506,"end":7635.401,"text":"就是已經發現這樣的一個問題然後是由地方政府這邊來發現所以我再解釋一次就是說在還沒有百分之百之前就有進來所以那個後市場查到是在那個之前百分之一百的話就如果有不合格就已經擋掉了"},{"start":7637.43,"end":7657.857,"text":"我想請教部長我們看到昨天的新聞在下有廠商知名的火鍋店也有蘇丹色素那你們有沒有去回推比如說這些進口商他到底把這個蘇丹色素就是後市場是賣給誰我覺得應該是要由食藥署這邊應該要去"},{"start":7660.309,"end":7683.801,"text":"應該要去勾肌,讓更多人知道,要不然這個可能也許這個知名的火鍋店他自己本身也不知道說這個是不可以用的這部分的話就是我們尋現在往下追查,那第一個環節的部分就是說像保鑫這幾家公司,他們進來賣到哪裡去的話,在我們的系統裡面是可以查得到"},{"start":7684.621,"end":7703.519,"text":"所以這一個部分是比較沒有問題但是第二層的這些廠商因為他可能會有一些加工的現象把他製造成分裝或者是說製造成其他的一個產品所以這部分的話就變成必須要一家一家去調查"},{"start":7704.549,"end":7721.866,"text":"所以這個一家一家調查是由你們調查還是由地方政府?對,由我們配合地方政府去一家一家去做調查,才知道說它在往下的流向是到哪邊去。所以最近的話大概就是在處理的,已經到這一點了。可是部長,我們在2月9號就已經有查到這一家保鑫"},{"start":7728.172,"end":7756.033,"text":"公司他就是進口這個辣椒粉嗎那如果說當時你們已經是通知地方政府那也一家一家去查的話因為我們昨天才知道這樣的一個訊息就是火鍋店也有用這個蘇丹色素那像這樣子的話距離到現在已經將近又一個月的時間那我是希望就是說有沒有可能在這個你們查到之後那也要求地方政府也要在短時間內"},{"start":7758.095,"end":7769.012,"text":"他們的所有的這個廠商賣給誰可能就是要把他勾結出來避免民眾吃了之後那個有的可能全部都吃到肚子裡面去了"},{"start":7770.742,"end":7789.552,"text":"對,所以這一個部分的話,不過現實上還是有它的困難,所以馬上就可以知道了。比如說我們去查了保鑫,知道保鑫有賣給寄生嘛,那寄生公司到底又把它變成什麼樣的東西的話,這個沒有去找寄生去一樣一樣去對的話是不可能知道的。"},{"start":7790.872,"end":7806.098,"text":"所以跟紀生對了之後才知道說他從保新這邊進口的這些違規的產品的批號是哪一些的話是製成什麼樣的產品然後往哪邊去銷售"},{"start":7807.098,"end":7833.149,"text":"這部分的話在我們的系統裡面沒有辦法追到所以這個是不是在我們的系統也要做一些比較精進的有它的困難度會有它的困難度因為它的產品有些品項太多一家公司製造出來的項目就非常多而且你每一個項目的話還要再去登記那個到底它賣到哪裡去的話要在這裡面去做的話是有它實質上的困難不過"},{"start":7834.489,"end":7863.513,"text":"碰到這樣子我們去追蹤的時候就針對這些違規產品是循線下去調查是比較可行的那針對這個蘇丹色素它原本就不應該在食品上出現嘛對不對對那我想請教部長就是說你本身也是法律也是法律出身嘛那我想請教就是說以前在這個這個混油的案件當中可能我們這個行政裁法就是可能可以先做行政裁法"},{"start":7864.133,"end":7879.427,"text":"那我看到現在好像食藥署或地方的這個衛生機關就是在這個好像在這個司法判決出爐之前好像沒有一個裁罰的空間我想請教是不是針對這樣的一個"},{"start":7883.47,"end":7902.923,"text":"我們講說不良的廠商這個原本不應該在食品上面出現的那因為我覺得說第一線的這個查驗的同仁其實也非常的辛苦那到地方政府這個衛生局的這個同仁更辛苦因為他們要查的東西真的是太多了那像這樣子的話"},{"start":7904.064,"end":7920.423,"text":"未來我們可以怎麼樣去處理一方面可以遏止或者是可以讓這些他不法要進口這些東西進來的時候他至少他知道說那我可能進來之後可能會受到的這個處罰或是罰款非常的多"},{"start":7922.241,"end":7936.826,"text":"這部分分兩個第一個就是說在行政法法上面的話當然就是有先行刑法先行事後行政的這樣一個規定但是他指的是處罰是同一類的比如說罰金跟罰款"},{"start":7938.527,"end":7952.676,"text":"這可能就是讓法院去判決有多少罰金至於說要有期徒刑這一類的話那只有刑事行政是沒有有期徒刑的但是其他的行政的處罰的話就沒有在這一個"},{"start":7955.277,"end":7977.534,"text":"行法的範圍之內,比如說讓他停止下架、停止販售、測銷他的執照,這些都是屬於行政的。行政的這些處分,事實上是不必等刑事判決就可以去做的。"},{"start":7978.655,"end":7994.372,"text":"我希望就是說因為大家都對這個食品安全都非常的重視我希望一般民眾他到現在他會覺得說我連吃一個火鍋我都會擔心說裡面是不是有蘇丹色素蘇丹紅所以一般的民眾要怎麼去辨別"},{"start":7996.132,"end":8019.781,"text":"其實這一個添加紅色色素的事實上有一些是合法的有些是非法的非法的部分的話其實這個蘇丹色素的話會讓這一個顏色是比較鮮豔那以我們現在來看的話今天這一個案件裡面很多是因為他"},{"start":8021.445,"end":8034.678,"text":"那個辣椒炒過或處理過之後製成辣椒粉的時候,它顏色就會改變,變黃或變黑,所以廠商就會想要加紅色色素,讓它賣相是比較好看"},{"start":8036.733,"end":8060.554,"text":"像這樣子的蘇丹社會其實我們的肉眼並沒有辦法去分辨說它到底是合法的這一個社會所以就是要從源頭管理但是我們會把這些有問題的這些違法的產品的批號我們會對外去公開來所以民眾有疑慮的話其實是可以去對照一下"},{"start":8062.436,"end":8089.933,"text":"我希望就是說大家對這個食品安全的一個重視也希望就是說衛福部真的要在第一關替人民把關真的大家都對這個真的眼睛盯著看每天的這個新聞的發展所以拜託部長還有署長我們一起努力謝謝好我們謝謝黃修邦委員的質詢那接下來我們請蘇清泉委員進行質詢"},{"start":8098.315,"end":8098.875,"text":"進口了十幾萬公斤的蘇丹紅"},{"start":8130.356,"end":8156.816,"text":"蘇丹紅沒有進口那麼多然後這個東西應該是工業用做油炸、做鐵炭、做一些工業燃料那怎麼會跑到食品來目前這個案子添加進去是在大陸那邊就已經添加了並不是進口蘇丹紅跟辣椒粉在國內再去粉、再去摻雜的"},{"start":8159.457,"end":8187.24,"text":"我查一下齁,歐盟跟美國都不能用嘛,都不能用在食品天下齁那中國大陸以前還有在用,但是現在也禁止了,也禁止了,對不對?在他們那邊理論上也是非法也是禁止,那我們台灣食藥署是美國啦、歐盟啦禁止,我們就直接禁止了但是我們的茶盒沒有到位"},{"start":8189.45,"end":8210.049,"text":"所以你今天的那個食安報告是部長你唸的嘛那個你有看過嘛你都認可嘛那你第5頁我看第5頁的倒數第二行說是中央跟地方積極查辦結果我看那是分裡面查出來我現在要說的重點就是說"},{"start":8213.14,"end":8227.722,"text":"中央訂了一大堆然後不能進口這個不能進口像那個那個乙型受體劑也是這樣但是我們的茶盒是有問題那現在到底"},{"start":8229.707,"end":8252.9,"text":"這個蘇丹紅進口的是無藥生、無藥生進口嘛,然後再分給工廠,工廠再去分裝,或者是再加工,然後再到二級,剛剛部長講的,再到二級,再到三級,就開火了,也不知道要怎麼炒。那進來是當作工業用,還是當食品用,他一進來,他也搞不清楚。"},{"start":8254.965,"end":8278.111,"text":"蘇丹紅是另外一件事情它進來的一定是工業用的但是我們現在是查辣椒粉裡面餐有蘇丹紅它餐的這個時間點是在中國就已經餐好了然後再進來就是辣椒粉在邊境要去檔製檔這一個那我們像什麼夏威仙啦海底撈啦什麼鹹鴨蛋啦"},{"start":8279.315,"end":8280.035,"text":"所以這個案件是人們檢舉的?"},{"start":8303.717,"end":8314.503,"text":"那是在訓練那邊是人檢記但是我們的邊境一直一直就都一直在升高那個抽批的比例了一直逐件查驗還是抽驗"},{"start":8321.98,"end":8334.529,"text":"那這個抽驗是海關做還是我們食藥署做那食藥署本身有人力配置在那裡我看你們的預算都今年比去年少"},{"start":8336.391,"end":8349.999,"text":"人也越來越少,剛剛我們王毓民委員說他死了20歲就存一個,救20歲的薪水又低,壓力又大,然後又沒有成就感這誰會幹啊,所以你們要怎麼處理啊,不然這個以後層出不窮啊"},{"start":8354.262,"end":8376.998,"text":"這時候我們會爭取,那應該希望就是說在今年下半年審預算的時候那委員能夠支持,我們能夠把這一部分的預算我們是在野黨,我們也支持,我們也全力支持,這個太可怕了所以這個漏洞,你將來是要怎麼來填補"},{"start":8381.369,"end":8399.617,"text":"目前來講的話我們是考慮說要把這些所謂的高風險的物質把它標示出來以後的這一個部分的話一發現有違規可能我們就不應該出現的東西它出現了那我們就變成這一類的產品100%的抽菸"},{"start":8402.849,"end":8424.389,"text":"據部長所知,這種用工業的染料之類的,然後有可能會危害到食品或加到食品裡面我現在跟您解釋,到底我們是吃多久了?我看他從小吃到盡,沒死就算不錯了沒死就不錯了,我坐在這裡大家都要翻垃圾"},{"start":8426.926,"end":8434.913,"text":"在前年之前的話,事實上我們在邊境並沒有檢驗出來,所以有這個藍。因為我們金馬農的酒門,車程在進去時門的金馬農都鄉親的,我會說那都是蘇丹紅,我死了。金馬農過去曾經有一件,"},{"start":8444.06,"end":8456.846,"text":"有一件事的確是參蘇丹紅,那好像是106年啦,現在再抽鹹肉兩隻,都鹹的都沒有啦。沒有啦齁?我們營養午餐有兩百萬的孩子在吃。"},{"start":8460.708,"end":8462.95,"text":"一進來的廠商到底是幾家?貿易商到底幾家再分出去?"},{"start":8479.801,"end":8491.749,"text":"目前貿易商進口這些違規的參有這個蘇丹紅的這個辣椒粉大概有4家4家所以都有秀出來了嘛你看預算那麼少你看1800多萬你是要做什麼做狗的這我都做什麼部長這太含了"},{"start":8510.446,"end":8524.335,"text":"這個食安五環就沿途管理我看你們也沒有能力到大陸去查場那這個要怎麼來做"},{"start":8529.728,"end":8553.647,"text":"對阿所以現在的做法就是說一查到有違規的添加蘇丹紅我們就禁止所以你是在第二關這裡對第二關或第三關這邊來查嗎對好也算源頭啦這也算源頭啦邊境如果查到了我們就禁止他進口啦好再來我要問那個"},{"start":8555.458,"end":8555.878,"text":"臺客多巴胺"},{"start":8574.028,"end":8575.409,"text":"有茶嗎?進口的豬肉你們有茶嗎?有啊,醃的時候我們都是一起醃"},{"start":8596.977,"end":8601.503,"text":"因為台堂這一次我有跑到信工、肉品"},{"start":8608.702,"end":8628.722,"text":"臺糖的豬就他,他們幫他採、幫他包裝,楊老闆跟我講說,一定是臺糖給他採的豬都是他們自己養的,他很有信心,臺糖的品牌會夠,因為臺糖本身,這個豚"},{"start":8633.223,"end":8654.133,"text":"安心屯 安心屯 那個賣得很好啊 這賣得不夠所以我看他是強烈的質疑啦 一定是拿外面的肉來攪一攪切切賣不出來那外面的肉有去污染到 或是說外國用西部吐露的 加拿大也有 澳大利亞也有 美國也有"},{"start":8655.774,"end":8683.934,"text":"全世界都有用瘦二肩的都沒有用西部特羅西部特羅在醫界以前也在用當作減肥藥只要量控制得好增加代謝、甲狀腺、坑糞、心血管像我們心臟胃科心血管讓它加強那個真的每一個吃起來都很棒身材都很棒都沒有油花應該是西部特羅吧應該是其他的以前受體術西部特羅還沒聽過"},{"start":8686.033,"end":8708.509,"text":"所以我在想說臺堂那一批就驗到那一份那其他那一同一批部長在說同一批次的沒有驗到那當然沒有驗到全部都吃掉了吃到肚子餓了你又抽其他的抽到700多件都抽到沒有沒有啦港肥我有啦港肥有喔港肥有吹到啦鹽我沒有啦我鹽沒有"},{"start":8711.318,"end":8714.421,"text":"兩天前,我們整個屏東、萬鸞鄉、內埔鄉建百香果的都崩盤"},{"start":8730.441,"end":8743.388,"text":"因為有一個營養書、康健雜誌轉給你用110年,我們農委會的data就說百香果的農藥產育量第一名、第二名、四個結果台灣百香果的產量最多是6頭"},{"start":8753.342,"end":8779.729,"text":"阿屏東那邊才有站三四時阿屏東那邊都是用不能撤掉轉做所以是匯扶政府政策全部都是往事的根本沒有在撒尿毛你看那麼漂亮阿這下你摸一下就轉沒崩盤那些農民每個人都要跳牢阿所以我去那我在這邊要請食藥署看要不要幫忙看要不要澄清一下"},{"start":8782.465,"end":8802.282,"text":"臺兩天前,這個很重要,這個也出事,那個也出事,他們已經非常痛苦,整個全部都凍掉。那我也找新北火災公司等等,趕快倒銷,找那個兩百萬個小孩子要吃營養午餐的幫忙,請他們來幫忙。那這個部長跟署長,有要幫忙嗎?"},{"start":8807.711,"end":8810.133,"text":"我是建議他去告這個營養師,把他更正"},{"start":8833.992,"end":8840.936,"text":"所以署長這邊如果可以的話,幫他們公文,這比較重要,不會討厭好,謝謝好,謝謝蘇星泉委員的質詢接下來我們請盧憲一委員進行質詢"},{"start":8866.203,"end":8866.864,"text":"委員好,好久不見"},{"start":8879.574,"end":8905.644,"text":"我們都知道食品添加物在歐盟只有4項在臺灣竟然有高達17項那我是覺得我們臺灣國人的腎臟應該沒有比全世界的人家好可是我們卻有17項的去年通過了食品添加物的所謂的類別那我們在歐盟只有4項也就是Sweetener對不對"},{"start":8906.67,"end":8907.21,"text":"蘇丹紅一直在說是工業用"},{"start":8923.049,"end":8949.774,"text":"不過7年前發生的時候是蔡英文剛上任也就是在105年的食安五環的那個政策之後發生的那也就是說如果當時在將近7年前這件事情已經發生了可是後來7年後已經是這麼久的食安五環為什麼又再度發生呢 對不對所以這不是應該更嚴格把關在主動上面 對不對那"},{"start":8951.008,"end":8975.86,"text":"還有一個就是如果我們在烹飪食材的時候有的時候會綁線有時候是一些我不知道的線它是不是也會沾染到一些工業用的燃料是不是也應該要當作一個比較常規的檢查我知道就中央的剛才所說的查緝人員非常少也沒有增加這幾年只有增加一位在地方上更是如此不是嗎"},{"start":8976.823,"end":8999.516,"text":"部長,我們在衛生局所最辛苦的就是稽查人員每一個人都很辛苦沒有做,稽查人員特別辛苦可是這方面的兵力預算是不是可以在下一任部長或者是你還是部長的時候能夠特別增加我們的稽查員的人力編制他們的生活非常的辛苦,對不對"},{"start":9001.657,"end":9025.589,"text":"應該是說地方的這些人力的調配還是在地方政府手上那當然如果說針對食品稽查、食品藥品的稽查的部分的人力需要增加的話那其實是可以來跟中央這邊講那我們看能不能整體的起一個計畫來做處理最好是全國性的通盤檢討"},{"start":9027.967,"end":9048.867,"text":"好那7年前這件事情是給鴨子吃的蘇丹紅7年後的這件事情是給人吃的辣椒粉你不覺得是退步嗎?不是進步是退步欸7年前那個是一個個案啦特例的有一個養鴨場的主人他把蘇丹紅放進去當飼料參雜在飼料裡面"},{"start":9051.269,"end":9067.47,"text":"那今年這個是從國外進口的這個產品辣椒粉的這個產品參了蘇丹紅本質上還是會有一些不一樣早上我在看一些違反的一些食品項目當中已經我已經多到看不完了"},{"start":9068.451,"end":9091.379,"text":"是不是要趕快的把他在媒體上公告給大家民眾知道說這些哪些東西已經不能再使用了這一個部分就是我們目前在做的我們就是一家一家去回溯然後看這一個產品是有問題的我們就把這個產品的品名跟批號我們會把它公布出來"},{"start":9092.625,"end":9105.662,"text":"好,第二個方面就是我們原住民的食材常常被歸類在未確認安全不得使用清單裡面那我剛剛看了一個雲端的資料大概目前這些不確定安全的名單裡面有537項"},{"start":9107.605,"end":9130.316,"text":"那如果以後有民眾捲舉達人就是說原住民的食材裡面是不安全的那被捲舉然後違法然後就被罰款對我們原住民來說非常的不合理因為我們就長期在使用這些比如說原生的一些植物那我希望在很短的時間裡面可以釐清這些平常我們在使用的一些特殊的葉子"},{"start":9130.976,"end":9156.859,"text":"能夠公告為安全的名單裡面,不然以後如果處罰做的人很辛苦,被罰的人更是可憐,是不是?這我們會找園民會跟農業部一起來做討論目前已經公告了這裡面如果有一些屬於原住民的傳統的食材這部分的話,那我們可以來討論一下"},{"start":9158.32,"end":9168.058,"text":"的確那個要去找科學證據證明他安全是有困難的我希望農業部、延民會跟地方的政府主管、原住民事務的一些官員一起參加來討論,謝謝"},{"start":9170.48,"end":9191.312,"text":"這項就是關於去年剛通過的原建法我希望他那個專責機構能夠建設的成立因為目前還沒有專責機構嘛他有指定專責機構不過還沒有這目前我們的規劃是在這個照護師裡面的有一個科那專責是原住民健康事務的"},{"start":9191.972,"end":9206.842,"text":"那因為這一個還在跟人事總書這邊在商討所以以後是在照護師嗎對對會增加一個科那這一個部分的話是人事總書那邊還沒有核定好那以後如果有機會的話就請我一起開會好嗎"},{"start":9209.042,"end":9230.941,"text":"那就是關於衛生所升級的部分因為部長都知道說我們原住民地區其實在照顧原住民健康的幾乎是衛生所那我從民國91年到去年離開衛生所退休其實衛生所沒有升級過我所謂的升級是應該人員的編制上面的一個升級比如說應該有行政組應該有防疫組應該有癌症組應該有醫療組"},{"start":9235.885,"end":9261.728,"text":"這樣的話不是只有這五六個人在做同樣這麼不同類別這麼專門的事情讓我們的醫護人員疲於本命不是嗎這一個部分的話我們對衛生所裡面的這些編制曾經做了一次的變革那我們建議說那裡面的話人力可以做怎麼樣的一個調整但是他並沒有"},{"start":9262.729,"end":9288.369,"text":"因為其實衛生所還是在地方政府在人事編制的部分還是在地方政府的管轄之內如果經費夠的話是不是可以先從特別偏遠的地區開始施行比如說阿里山、霧台這些比較偏遠的地區讓我們的醫護人員可以免於疲憊奔命的在照顧我們的族人還要身兼行政的工作然後還要值班對不對"},{"start":9289.19,"end":9307.196,"text":"好最後一個就是關於IDS的問題就是說他們在一個給付的一個值班費或者是一個訓療新回藥的津貼裡面就醫師的部分是沒有改變過也就是說我從91年進去到去年推出沒有改變過護理人員稍微調整不過我總覺得"},{"start":9308.736,"end":9335.317,"text":"應該是不夠的所以尤其是現在在炒護理人員的值班費的問題這方面應該要從優的去考慮我們偏遠地區的醫療人員的一個給付不然非常辛苦24小時上班以後還要再做白天的工作尤其在山上可以嗎委員你應該也知道因為這一個是在健保的範圍整合的範圍之內"},{"start":9336.638,"end":9352.584,"text":"我希望健保局那邊可以做一個檢討好嗎?對,但是這還是要透過健保會等等這樣子的一個機制大家去做討論好,謝謝好,謝謝好,我們謝謝盧憲毅委員的質詢接下來我們請劉建國委員進行質詢"},{"start":9365.705,"end":9365.985,"text":"1月30日今年"},{"start":9386.874,"end":9401.822,"text":"FDA公布邊境查驗結果,中國輸入臺灣辣椒粉共28,000多公斤,驗出蘇丹色素3號這沒有問題吧?好那你可以從這個大司機裡面再去看有講到這個蘇丹色素3號"},{"start":9410.26,"end":9436.54,"text":"幾乎每天將近有一半因為我懷有相關資料沒有納入進去啦齁包含有這個什麼蝦味仙啦齁還有海底撈還有剛才張偉拿的那個什麼相關的一些零嘴的食品等等等還有辣還有調味料如果如果要要要有更積極的作為我想我這個大司機應該是放不下而且會每天會一包至兩包以上啦齁那我現在講說我對照我現在對照你們的"},{"start":9438.143,"end":9448.847,"text":"你們的這個報告裡面的第7頁第7頁已經提到邊境全面竹坯檢驗你的竹坯檢驗是從112年的12月11日以採取100%竹坯檢驗然後檢驗合格後使得輸入那你現在跟我講就是說1月30號這個也是竹坯檢驗這個邊境的檢驗查到了這2萬多公斤的蘇丹紅色素3號"},{"start":9468.533,"end":9497.119,"text":"你是要跟我們說明的是說他是在他是在你12月11日之前的100%主批檢驗之前進來的是不是這樣對但是緩之你不可能一個食品一個添加物你馬上就100%主批檢驗應該之前是有先可能是50%再往前推可能是30%有查到不合格或是什麼樣狀況你才會"},{"start":9499.242,"end":9510.789,"text":"慢慢的調高這個足比檢驗的這個這個層數嘛對不對應該是這麼講那現在問題來了嘛齁如果照你這麼說到了1月30然後100%的檢驗是去年的12月11號足足有兩個多月時間喔對不對兩個多月嘛12月11嘛我們算一個月嘛1月30算一個月就將近快兩個月時間嘛對不對"},{"start":9529.278,"end":9556.221,"text":"那這個中間你們的50%、30%有可能再往前推可能是半年嘛齁大概是這樣一個一個一個一個一個時間嘛對不對通通沒有查到這個蘇丹色素3號一直到1月30才有辦法查到我們的食安五環裡面講得非常清楚嘛齁你們開宗明義第一頁就講到嘛源頭控管嘛加強查驗嘛齁然後加重惡意"},{"start":9557.065,"end":9583.536,"text":"黑心廠商的責任我從這三個面向來跟你討論第一個圓融控管我覺得這是有問題的第二個家常茶宴我覺得更有問題我為什麼要這麼表達因為你們自己在相關的報告裡面也寫了很多AI的大數據然後加重怎樣的這個跨部會的相關的資料然後前端的把關輸入食品的安全等文件的措施然後"},{"start":9584.776,"end":9613.246,"text":"還有要提高這個違規產品的運送率當我們在12月去年12月11號的時候已經提高到100%的時候我們怎麼會到快兩個月時間才在邊境查驗到中國輸入的台灣辣椒粉共2萬多公斤將近快3萬公斤這個顯然邊境查驗逐批檢驗是有很大的問題我要挑戰這件事情這其一嘛齁那其二你再看一下"},{"start":9615.08,"end":9634.829,"text":"在保鑫這家公司應該是最大應該是我了解看到相關數據跟資料保鑫這家公司應該是最大的進口商目前來講對不對那從1月30還不曉得保鑫2月7號應該就是要知道了那你們目前為止對保鑫做什麼作為"},{"start":9638.426,"end":9650.651,"text":"委員的兩個問題,第一個就是說,我們從去年百分之百的抽批之後,那到1月30,這個有公佈這個邊境檢驗結果有輸入的,驗豬有蘇丹色素3號的這一個。"},{"start":9662.574,"end":9666.766,"text":"那這中間我們所做的其實就是對於之前"},{"start":9668.943,"end":9693.998,"text":"還沒有百分之百抽批之前的那些已經進來的那我們要求去做後市長的一個查驗那這個都有這一個請那個地方的衛生局後續去做這個稽查那這中間因為總共的輸入是有9批那檢驗不合格所以這個我們就交給地方去做"},{"start":9696.1,"end":9707.958,"text":"所以這中間我們是有做事情那第二個問題是委員提到說那現在對保新我們做了哪一些處理那是不是我請那個署長來做說明"},{"start":9711.369,"end":9711.749,"text":"什麼時候開法?"},{"start":9734.718,"end":9755.109,"text":"對,3月3號3月3號,所長你自己看吼,我的大四季裡面有出現保新的是2月24、2月28、2月29然後3月2號,甚至有廠家主動自己拿去檢驗發現有這個問題,然後也跟保新提出退貨"},{"start":9756.667,"end":9774.188,"text":"那保新有通知他所有的這些下游的廠家主動下架嗎?沒有那我們只有開華兩百萬嗎?這個加重惡意黑心廠商的責任嗎?這是一件事情我從你的五道食安五環五道面向來討論嘛那第二個我剛剛有特別提到你們還沒有回答我"},{"start":9775.249,"end":9797.583,"text":"12月11號,去年11月11號就已經百分之100%的這樣的一個查驗怎麼會到1月30還有這麼多驗出將近3萬公斤的蘇丹色素3號你要跟我表達說這個是之前那這個之前的檢驗,邊境檢驗是出了什麼問題今天稍微講,要感謝稍微排這個專案但是應該把邊境的相關的人員都要找來才對那我這關題發生了這麼嚴重"},{"start":9802.121,"end":9814.708,"text":"這真的是有問題部長你再思考一下還有包含署長到底是什麼地方出了問題而且你們的整體的這個說法裡面整個報告裡面我先提供到這兩點還有問題我們都要在第一個時間去阻斷第一個時間要去阻斷非凡產品於境外那顯然是沒有"},{"start":9832.614,"end":9844.548,"text":"這呈現了1月30的2萬多公斤的驗出來,這就是在邊境就擋住了,因為他驗出來是有是1月30嗎?對啊,就是你1月30這邊寫的那你是不是要跟我表達說12月11號100%提高到100%的時候,一直到1月30這個中間"},{"start":9850.552,"end":9876.68,"text":"還是沒有擋住的嗎?12月11號之前也是沒有擋住的嗎?才有底下這些大試劇嗎?應該是這樣說嗎?應該是說兩萬多公斤是被擋住的對啊,兩萬多公斤就是在1月30號這個邊境查驗的時候100%查驗的時候才擋住嘛對不對?之前沒有擋住嘛因為你剛剛講說後面發生的大試劇應該是在提高100%之前進口到台灣來的嘛所以不管38%、不管50%甚至於12月11號的"},{"start":9879.502,"end":9902.732,"text":"一百趴一直到今年的1月30我們都會有很多沒有擋住才會發生這麼多的大事件一百趴之後就不會沒有擋住啦是一百趴之前嘛一百趴之前才有說啊漏了嘛那你就要提供相關數據從12月11號一百趴之後一直到1月30的所有主批檢驗發生的不合格率"},{"start":9904.4,"end":9933.659,"text":"有多少嗎?不可能就1月30去檔到還是你這個是累積的嗎?你是從12月11號累積到累積嘛齁?好啊所以我們的邊境查驗你就是要告訴委員會說從今而後通通要100%對啊不然就是會有落網之魚嘛對因為你看這相關產品這麼多香味鮮調味料還有那個鴨血等等等應該還有很多很多相關製品嘛對不對這個明天可能會在"},{"start":9934.232,"end":9956.586,"text":"有不一樣的食品在發生嗎?有可能這其一嘛,好那其二食安通報的SOP到底是怎麼樣?你來看這是我們雲縣政府啦齁他是這樣喔他是在1月8號接貨陳情結果是到1月22號才抽樣就過了兩個禮拜嘛,對不對這是他們的新聞稿我知道他們的新聞稿說給你聽1月30號才確認有蘇丹紅色素"},{"start":9961.092,"end":9986.846,"text":"所以才隨即找了業者也業者也說在1月31號會立即通知下游下架產品然後通報然後在2月7號通報全國1月8號接獲陳情2月7號通報全國在我們整個網上網消署報在向全國通報如果依照這個SOP對照臺中的希伯特羅事件這差天差地啊他要通知業者"},{"start":9990.849,"end":9997.236,"text":"來做說明然後再做統一的下架然後你看臺中的西波特羅事件連臺黨都沒有通知過我們的SOP到底出了什麼問題怎麼沒有一個全國統一的標準像面對這些事情"},{"start":10008.82,"end":10031.146,"text":"這個部分的話委員這樣問的話我們是認為說我們可以來進一步再找不是不是這個事情我覺得灰龍小葛有一個西部特羅現在有一個蘇丹紅未來有什麼事情我們不曉得如果經常這樣地方政府跟中央政府都不同調這個沒有什麼cancel那個問題每個人都要吃每個人都會賭到這個原本中央就是要"},{"start":10037.967,"end":10065.944,"text":"要請全力的去把這個整個SOP建制完成嘛才不會有這樣的事情發生嘛不然你看這個不是很好很離譜一個是廠家對保鮮主動退貨我們知道這個事情之後我們去裁判兩百萬另外一個是接獲陳情然後兩個禮拜之後才抽樣1月30才確認將近快一個月才確認有蘇丹紅然後再來在1月31號也足足快一個月時間才通報全國"},{"start":10070.247,"end":10090.514,"text":"第三件事情這個SOP你們一定要趕快建制啦吼第三件事情怎麼會你們的報告裡面什麼會對這一個波格輸入的廠家中國這廠家什麼暫停三個月的輸入你知道中國跟台灣永遠都沒有對等的機會這是非常不智的作為"},{"start":10091.604,"end":10114.131,"text":"怎麼說?臺灣的農產品、臺灣的食品輸入到中國一旦發現有像農產品有甲殼蟲無限期的禁止輸入相關的食品也一樣全國在他們中國全國包含新疆他都要求全面下架禁到他們的海關全部扣關我們怎麼會對他們這麼好只有禁三個月"},{"start":10115.496,"end":10140.992,"text":"這樣永遠沒有對等的機會請部長展現魄力啦好不好因為署長我覺得我剛才提到的整個食安通報的事情這個應該是要有一個非常明確的建制啦不然這事情會持續的發生會永遠不斷最後我還是覺得邊境的查驗它是有很大的問題我希望你提供那些數據給我們好不好1月30之前"},{"start":10142.572,"end":10163.571,"text":"年內查到的不合格率到底是什麼樣的狀況給委員會所有委員做參考好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝劉建國委員進行的質詢那主席在這邊宣告我們待會等林淑芬委員質詢完畢之後我們處理臨時提案接下來我們請王振旭委員進行質詢"},{"start":10174.326,"end":10176.868,"text":"我們還是請辛苦的部長還有署長"},{"start":10186.601,"end":10204.51,"text":"我想大家都很關心這個食安的問題那一開始趙志偉也有提到好像跟致癌有關係那剛好這是我的專業那目前我們也知道我們今天所出現的這個蘇丹紅事件基本上它是第三級的致癌物"},{"start":10205.71,"end":10231.279,"text":"第三集的意思就是他對在動物實驗上可能可以發生癌症可是實際上在人體還沒有被發現過因為基本上蘇丹紅他不應該是使用在人類身上所以就沒有相關的數據不過我們也相信大家一定會非常關心未來在癌症的問題不過我想我們還是針對現在更關心的問題怎麼來處理怎麼來檢討"},{"start":10234.16,"end":10237.341,"text":"我們知道到目前為止事實上看起來是越滾越大的這些困難"},{"start":10252.228,"end":10269.009,"text":"我們也知道其實從105年就啟動了這個食安五環到底這個食安五環是不是有它的成效本席認為其實它還是有一定的成效只是這次又出現了這個系統性問題那代表我們還是要"},{"start":10269.83,"end":10269.85,"text":"致詢問題"},{"start":10291.933,"end":10304.548,"text":"這個報宅在去年底就有一家它的下游廠商發現了問題演出了這個蘇丹紅他就把它退貨那同時也讓這個相關的這個"},{"start":10308.092,"end":10322.082,"text":"保新他們做後續的處理那很可惜如果那個時候如果那個時候能夠掌握到這個問題點的話相信後面的問題應該就不會有機會產生那剛剛邱委員有提到"},{"start":10323.288,"end":10339.648,"text":"我們有沒有相關的這個同業的市井機制那這個市井機制未來要如何的產生為什麼我們的同業他無法把這樣的訊息有效的傳遞到我們的主管機關這部分不知道部長有哪一些的意見"},{"start":10342.017,"end":10344.961,"text":"其實同院之間發現說至於送院發現說有這違規的成分的話理論上還是應該要通報但是以這一個"},{"start":10357.255,"end":10374.807,"text":"委員所提到這一個的話那我們並不知道有這麼一回事我們並不知道有這樣一回事那這一個部分的話未來是也許是可以加強不過這變成說對廠商的要有這樣一致性的要求"},{"start":10378.896,"end":10405.814,"text":"對,應該是要通報,但是他等於說把他私了這個處理是不太恰當的我們會再重申可能是沒有通報的話可能會有一定的責任是,我們了解各個專業之間都會有同儕壓力以食安為例,如果他上下有這個關係的話未來如何能夠建構好這樣的市井機制"},{"start":10408.416,"end":10433.153,"text":"本席認為非常非常重要這個已經是在食安五環裡面還要再加強的部分這是第一個問題那第二個問題就是邊境查驗剛剛已經看到非常非常多的這些委員有發表的高見那我們看到這個數據就是112年的確有出現22批已經不合格的批數所以如果有更好的滾動檢驗的強度跟密度"},{"start":10435.434,"end":10463.425,"text":"理論上就可以減少這樣的風險發生那其實剛剛昭惠有提到我們的人力真的是非常非常的不夠所以相信通過這次的事件以後也期待未來在編類預算或者是各方面應該國會這邊會努力的來加強這方面的要求那也希望能夠提供適當的人力出來讓這個處理可以更完整"},{"start":10464.025,"end":10486.16,"text":"不過我比較好奇的就是通常這個進口商或者是廠商他們會進這些進來出現違規的這個食品添加物應該是有它的價格上的問題意思就是說如果同一批類似的產品他們要進來一定有一定的"},{"start":10487.219,"end":10487.399,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10502.165,"end":10528.463,"text":"有可能產生哪一些的方式來瞭解當這個價錢跟市場機制是很不合理的改變的時候我們有沒有市井的機制跟委員報告這一個部分從價格上面可能會看不出來因為他以A代B以違規的來取代是合法的他不會跟你講也不見得會反映在售價上面報價上面"},{"start":10530.43,"end":10552.631,"text":"因為這樣一趟比較多啦用合格的也許他的成本10塊嘛用不合格的成本降到7塊他又賺了這3塊他不會即時跟你報說我成本降了3塊,不會所以他就會獲得那3塊錢的包吏所以大概從價格上面要去做管制大概有他的困難"},{"start":10553.874,"end":10563.459,"text":"了解,所以的確有它執行上的困難好,那往下我們可以看我們也可以了解再往下看"},{"start":10565.14,"end":10585.736,"text":"食安問題真的是很嚴重尤其我們也了解中國的食安意識相對不足這是我們可以從各方面來了解因為包括在幾年前就有這個三聚千安的事件導致很多小朋友得到這個很不好的結果所以一個建議"},{"start":10586.937,"end":10601.525,"text":"我們有沒有可能去標示產地尤其是這些高風險的國家進到台灣來它的添加物如果會頻繁的出現在這個食品上面的話那對於已經出現過好幾次的這種"},{"start":10607.388,"end":10621.029,"text":"對食安造成問題的這些添加物我們能不能夠也同時要求要標示產地資訊的公開保障國人的食安安全這個可以提供我們民眾更多的這個資訊安全的這些保障"},{"start":10621.926,"end":10642.567,"text":"根據食安法的規定,不管是產品進來都必須要標示製造果,包括添加物的部分其實也是要,現在只是在技術上可能有困難"},{"start":10643.408,"end":10666.097,"text":"比方說現在是這一次的事件一瓶辣椒粉你可以去標示說這辣椒粉的原產果是在中國這沒有問題但是辣椒粉所添加的色素要另外再去標示說這個色素的來源果是多少那恐怕在那小小的一瓶辣椒粉的標示的"},{"start":10666.684,"end":10682.887,"text":"的那個level上面的話擠不下那麼多東西了解所以希望未來有機會的話也可以再研議看看那最後一個問題呢就是我不知道我們是不是算食品大國"},{"start":10684.108,"end":10684.769,"text":"外交到馬來西亞"},{"start":10699.289,"end":10719.398,"text":"那身為這個全球的議員臺灣如果出現了這些不健康對民眾有傷害或者是會影響到健康的食品那如果賣到其他國家我們目前有什麼機制可以去示警去讓其他國家也了解的同時我們有沒有什麼回收機制"},{"start":10721.542,"end":10748.598,"text":"這部分的話應該是說我們如果真正有外銷出去的應該會通知那個輸入口那邊的管理的機關應該會有一個通報的機制是那這部分如果有相關通報或直接回收的話也希望能夠公告給全民的民眾可以知道我們目前所做的努力以上好謝謝"},{"start":10750.646,"end":10758.293,"text":"好 謝謝王振旭委員的質詢接下來我們請楊耀委員進行質詢謝謝主席 主席請教薛部長好 請部長"},{"start":10774.891,"end":10796.691,"text":"部長好 部長我們就這一次中國的辣椒粉裡面添加了蘇丹紅也造成了一些後續的問題那我們大概在去年首次檢出違規的辣椒粉以後就依照"},{"start":10797.672,"end":10820.237,"text":"食品以及相關產品輸入查驗辦法提高抽驗的數量那我們是逐步提高20%然後50%然後到全面這樣子逐步查驗的比例跟是不是會查出更多有沒有"},{"start":10821.609,"end":10848.6,"text":"這一次是查出來越查越多因為比例增高是越來越多但是如果說它本來就沒有那麼普遍的話提高這個抽驗比例應該是比例會越來越少所以就是假如說是比較大規模的違規事件就會隨著抽驗提高"},{"start":10849.6,"end":10878.413,"text":"提高他的案件數假如是偶發的反而會降低對不對也就是說並不是抽查的比例越高案件就越高啦要看個別的事件這個我想說是不是每一件都一樣那部長這樣子也是我知道"},{"start":10879.641,"end":10904.633,"text":"我們現在大概我知道食藥署這邊有在研議要修正食品及相關產品的輸入、輸入查驗辦法大概就是嚴重違規的太陽我們是打算要跳過加強抽驗跟逐批查驗直接禁止輸入那這個違規嚴重違規的太陽"},{"start":10909.11,"end":10934.312,"text":"大概會是什麼情形?像蘇丹紅就屬於這類我們會有幾個判斷的依據第一個就是說那這一個產品發生違規的比例就是說它的頻率有多高第二就是說它造成人體的危害是有多重那第三個就是這種異常非常異常不應該出現在這個食品裡面的東西"},{"start":10936.394,"end":10947.822,"text":"突然出現了,那這個部分的話可能也是屬於我們就先全面禁止,對本會先提升到100%,如果100%還查到的話,那就禁止了"},{"start":10950.543,"end":10965.873,"text":"那像現在我們查驗到了以後因為有部分已經流入市場嘛你們跟地方政府應該有要求地方政府要強化查驗的預警機制"},{"start":10967.674,"end":10988.165,"text":"對這些可能的漏網之魚,也就是說這幾家公司進來的產品,在當時還沒有100%抽批結果就讓他准他獲得,我們就請地方政府再去把他回來抽驗如果有不合格的,那就還是通通要下架現在這個機制應該是存在"},{"start":10992.961,"end":11005.974,"text":"我提一個問題就是因為剛才我們大概就是按照違規的情況從20%到50%到百分之百所以人力的部分其實"},{"start":11007.575,"end":11024.135,"text":"因為邊境的茶宴,茶的項目也多,包括農藥的殘留量也都在裡面,所以範圍非常的廣,所以需要的人力很多。"},{"start":11027.95,"end":11047.307,"text":"在111年也就是2022年的時候我們輸入的食品重量是將近900萬公噸那個時候我們的茶宴的人數茶宴的人員是192人這個是111年的數字"},{"start":11056.044,"end":11078.577,"text":"相較於109年齁 相較於兩年前109年109年其實只有八十 八十一個就是等於我們在兩年裡面增加了 增加了兩倍的人力齁那 我知道 我知道這 這裡有部分的人力其實是透過前瞻預算"},{"start":11080.549,"end":11105.596,"text":"來補充的那現在前瞻預算可能快要結束了人力的問題部長這邊有沒有什麼構想我們在今年我們會來跟行政院這邊溝通希望說在因為這個食品進口的茶園的話工作是越來越繁重對"},{"start":11106.736,"end":11121.439,"text":"所以我們希望能夠增加人力這我們來跟行政院這邊爭取那如果爭取得到當然同時所需要的預算我們會編列進來在今年就編列進來那下個會期就會送到立法院來"},{"start":11121.86,"end":11144.265,"text":"部長這個應該要爭取到我相信不分黨派的委員也都會支持大家既然對於國人的食安的部分這麼重視人力不足是沒有辦法處理好很多事情的"},{"start":11150.299,"end":11158.162,"text":"我繼續問現在比如說蘇丹紅違規的廠商那大概已經雲林地鐵署已經有開始在啟動偵查那這是形式的部分"},{"start":11175.1,"end":11194.113,"text":"民眾因為食品安全的關係所以他可能會有對自己身體有一些傷害那這裡有關民事的部分有兩個問題第一個問題就是"},{"start":11198.567,"end":11221.587,"text":"其實食品安全的民事訴訟最困難的就是怎麼建構跟證明它的因果關係 對不對這個很困難 第二個就是它有的時候譬如說像塑化劑、三聚氰胺這種半衰期相對短"},{"start":11223.959,"end":11233.486,"text":"那到檢驗的時候其實很難驗出來也就是說他在民事訴訟的難度是很高的"},{"start":11240.031,"end":11266.745,"text":"我們這邊有沒有協助民眾提起團體訴訟的機制?報告委員我們在食安法裡面底下所設的食安基金其實是可以協助民眾來做這一方面的工作也就是說它的法律的相關的一些事務的費用的話我們是可以給予補助的那主要是如果可能這時候需要經過團體訴訟這樣子"},{"start":11269.643,"end":11282.647,"text":"好 這個就是我們從把關到善後政府都有一定的責任在好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 我們謝謝楊耀委員的質詢接下來我們請林淑芬委員進行質詢好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們食藥署署長"},{"start":11299.411,"end":11323.954,"text":"好 我們請食藥署署長委員好署長你好整個你的所管理的業務裡面最核心的食品跟藥品那我們都知道整個國家的管理制度你們管理制度不管是食品的安全還是藥品的安全都建立在最核心的前提那就是業者自律這個前提"},{"start":11324.975,"end":11348.054,"text":"那業者自律呢?食品安全也是業者自律那顯然我們政府經過多年食安事件以後要求要追溯追蹤系統然後呢?雖然是這樣子但是根據監察院的報告監察院的2020年的報告指出啊這個按照食品衛生管理法的規定所申請登錄的業者有47萬5736家次"},{"start":11350.896,"end":11364.426,"text":"但是呢 你們要求 強力要求要建立這個追溯追蹤系統要參加食品雲的加數只有一萬加比例是七萬跟一萬比例是兩趴兩趴"},{"start":11366.207,"end":11370.928,"text":"在這種狀況裡面事實上我們會講說你今天的報告講得很好聽你今天的書面報告說食藥署的風險預警預判功能是有預判的所以你們要強化風險預警分析為導入數據分析輔助風險偵測然後針對高規高關注的產品高風險進行預判"},{"start":11390.774,"end":11396.577,"text":"然後呢你們今天還講到說這個要強化風險預警預判功能不但講預警預判連登錄都沒有然後強制要登錄追溯追蹤的只有2%的業者所以在這裡喔我們消費者一路走來始終是發生食安事件以後抱歉含致癌物質的藥品我已經吞了一大堆了含致癌物質的添加物我已經吃下去一大堆了"},{"start":11418.727,"end":11430.571,"text":"那今天我就問你最核心的一件事情請問辣椒粉輸入有沒有在食品追溯追蹤系統的登錄體系裡面有沒有強制規定要登錄報告委員那個因為這個業者他如果是有不是這個業者我講辣椒粉這個品項因為這次出示的辣椒粉請問他是依據你們哪一個規定去參加這個登錄"},{"start":11446.687,"end":11458.525,"text":"就是我們規定有他的那個資本額是3000萬以上然後又有工廠登記我怎樣請問他們有沒有嗎現在出事的有沒有的有參加食品有沒有登錄"},{"start":11460.219,"end":11476.671,"text":"有追溯系統嗎?有上游的流向從哪裡進來?有下游的流向哪裡?跑到哪裡嗎?保興公司他必須要執行他有沒有執行?我再問你他根據什麼規定要執行?你旁邊記證組長,你是旁邊,問你書店這核心業務,你書店還要你大旁邊幫他搞"},{"start":11482.045,"end":11500.46,"text":"有那個保興公司他有執行你不要在這裡騙委員難怪大家說國會要有聽證制度你是一共應建立食品追蹤追溯系統的食品業者有幾類有幾項我們這邊一共有25類25類他們是第幾類你說給我聽聽看他是屬於輸入業者不是啦第幾個序號第幾類"},{"start":11511.857,"end":11530.215,"text":"我恐怕你們是他是沒有登錄沒有被要求要強硬的要建立食品追蹤追溯系統的吧監察院講了47萬家你們強硬要求規定的都是3000萬規模以上的居多當然也有小型的比如說高風險的也要"},{"start":11530.976,"end":11549.052,"text":"但是 辣椒粉它根本都不在25類裡面 我想不通你怎麼預判風景你哪裡可以溯源 你當然沒有辦法溯源也不知道流向啊你現在查到的都是海關比對資料勾集出來的吧"},{"start":11550.382,"end":11572.031,"text":"你就回答我 你們在這裡都說法這個委員他這裡齁 第23類這個農產品他是屬於這個農產植物菇類還有藻類製品他是屬於這個輸入業者這一類好 那我現在就再問你 好23類嘛齁 植物製品菇類藻類他是菇類還是藻類製品他是農產植物"},{"start":11578.305,"end":11583.972,"text":"好 那現在我再問你那為什麼你們要這樣子自己擠牙膏慢慢擠 擠這麼久"},{"start":11585.558,"end":11592.264,"text":"就是從1月8號檢舉人檢舉檢舉人是寄生SGS有檢出這個韓蘇丹紅然後呢雲林縣政府去查場然後1月22他們去後市場再去買產品然後我們送到衛福部送到衛福部大家今天包括劉建國委員講這個從不要講1月8號啦"},{"start":11611.701,"end":11635.978,"text":"至少確認的是1月30號然後你們1月30號一直拖拖到2月20號才暫停了21家近年曾經進口不合格輸入不合格中國辣椒粉的業者才3個月然後呢大家才發現說你今天的報告講說去年去年的年中你們5月22"},{"start":11638.311,"end":11638.891,"text":"其中是屬於蘇丹紅的有7批"},{"start":11666.277,"end":11689.213,"text":"我現在問你說不合格去年的中國來的是330批我看一下330批我現在問你你光是給我們的22批不合格這是含蘇丹紅還是所有含農藥過蘇丹紅有7批農藥有16批那我現在要跟你講這件事情是食安辦的資料跟你們根本就對不起來"},{"start":11689.713,"end":11716.653,"text":"光是5月22不合格3批8月15去年不合格6批9月13不合格7批12月11不合格13批這去年半年就超過29批加起來是超過29批因為這是累計的他是累計然後有的是含有農藥所以如果我現在講全部啊不合格批次你給我們的數字是22批"},{"start":11717.714,"end":11731.793,"text":"是然後呢光是我們在看了比對食安辦的半年從5月22到12月11就有29批所以你們提供給我的數據是你們自己也都不起來那我現在還要再講喔你們從5月22"},{"start":11734.497,"end":11740.961,"text":"就發現之前就發現有很多的不合格所以才把抽驗的比例提高到20%在5月之前你們就發現很多不合格所以在5月你們再提高到20%驗出來以後又非常的不合格所以你們去年的8月又把這個抽驗的比例提高到30%"},{"start":11760.074,"end":11778.683,"text":"然後又發現抽菸了還是很多不合格然後再到9月再把提高抽菸的比例提高到50%然後又發現很多不合格才會變成12月的時候說那我們乾脆對中國來的邊境不合格率這麼多的話我們提高抽菸比例到100%"},{"start":11781.184,"end":11796.839,"text":"如果根據這個相關的法規這個查驗辦法食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法來講事實上就是非常非常多每次抽驗都不合格再抽驗又不合格所以才會變成百分之百的抽驗那我現在問你說你抽驗之後你邊境當然是抽驗這麼多不合格不合格以後抽驗到了那你有沒有進行後市場繼續抽驗"},{"start":11806.597,"end":11818.108,"text":"這個是源頭邊境嘛你抽菸這麼高這麼多批都不合格你發現這個中國來的辣椒粉穿了蘇丹紅的或是其他農藥超標這麼嚴重那你有沒有做後市場的繼續把關"},{"start":11824.233,"end":11841.282,"text":"有我們如果有在邊境有查到不合格的就會把相關的資訊回饋到後市場然後地方政府他就去查相關的這些到底查了多少次查了哪些記錄對我們後來回饋回饋到地方政府這邊的在"},{"start":11844.344,"end":11852.169,"text":"今年度的1月到2月20號好不要再講我聽不下去因為從去年年初就一直驗不及格驗不及格你們到今年去年一整年你們都沒有後市場抽驗而今年你說1到2月你們交給地方政府不要再講今年的1月8號檢舉人就跟地方政府檢舉了"},{"start":11868.68,"end":11885.75,"text":"1月8號這個是檢舉人這個不是不是邊境查驗然後再去主動FDA或地方政府主動去候市長查驗產品來抽驗都不是這個案件整個是也不是你溯源稅追蹤系統查出來都不是這是檢舉人起的頭"},{"start":11890.092,"end":11902.195,"text":"所以要說你們都明明知道源頭把關的邊境這麼多不合格可是你們還是代呼職者不願意積極辦理然後仍然放任我要再講第二章的這個我跟你們要了這五年裡面邊境查驗違反規定的我就整理了一些啦你看這個名單啦今天出事的過去都出過事了啦"},{"start":11924.518,"end":11940.643,"text":"保新108年也有今天的金站就是海底撈的這個金站加廣我告訴大家不管他叫金站加廣釜山還是海順通通都是同一家人同一家族"},{"start":11941.701,"end":11951.094,"text":"登記在同一個公司吳克民他有兩家所以他們都知道邊境產業不及格沒關係我再用其他公司再進口"},{"start":11952.441,"end":11979.438,"text":"這一家有問題我再用別的再進口然後你看都同一批人你看六豐生物這個綠豐實業看起來好像不是但你到工商登記裡面他們都互為股東都有公私相通還有這個天松企業這個都是檢出蘇丹紅色素所以所以我再講一個我不想差出啦可是這也是實話我就發現這個韓廣韓廣"},{"start":11982.981,"end":12011.849,"text":"我看他的其他的公司登記我認為他進口的不是只有中國辣椒他檢出的這個含有蘇丹紅色素的還有農藥超標的他的進口來源是哪一國這去年而已啊他被檢出3批啊他是中國進口的嗎是不是因為他做的他本來是一家韓國小吃店後來他成立另外兩家公司叫首爾什麼公司還有韓什麼公司的"},{"start":12012.83,"end":12032.096,"text":"所以我今天要跟你們講 從去年 其實也不要去年 歷年來大家都知道辣椒和辣椒粉本來就是高風險的而你們也查出來 邊境源頭都查出來了可是你們從來不做後市場把關 沒有 而且後市場把關本來就很難了我必須要講為什麼很難 後市場把關為什麼難 因為原料"},{"start":12037.669,"end":12058.2,"text":"原料它添加物然後加工以後變成產品它會一直不斷的稀釋所以在源頭去把關查出不合格檢出違規違法這是比較容易的到後市場你要檢出不合格其實是比較困難的"},{"start":12059.261,"end":12086.62,"text":"可是當你後市場而這一次的事件是1月22號雲林縣政府他去茶場發現原料有問題他還去後市場買買來交給我們食藥署驗仍然這個產品後市場抽驗的產品仍然有蘇丹紅還驗得出來你就知道這個含量多麼的高這個多麼嚴重所以我們都知道說啊"},{"start":12088.522,"end":12102.887,"text":"追溯追蹤你們當然講我們會增加預警預判你們連發現了都不繼續做那我今天在跟你講說你現在禁止了21家的中國食品輸出商嘛對不對"},{"start":12104.491,"end":12124.868,"text":"是不是?對那我問你,廣家跟金站他們輸入中國大陸哪一家公司?Kevin,Kevin食品Kevin食品,OK我們辦公室去使用中國的國家企業信用信息系統沒有這一家公司然後你去Google查詢你知道是查到什麼公司嗎?"},{"start":12133.274,"end":12157.433,"text":"Kevin Shippinging可以查得到他是一家什麼公司嗎?我就問你,人家給你登錄了,然後也出事了社會案件都爆發得這麼嚴重了他說你也禁止了21家中國廠商進來我禁止了Kevin Shippinging進來了可是我現在問你有沒有這一家公司?中國有沒有這一家公司啊?"},{"start":12158.782,"end":12186.368,"text":"為什麼一個食品出口商的名字會叫SHIPPINGSHIP我們在GOOGLE查到他是一家香港的船務公司啊中文的名字叫家運船務有限公司你們進口了一家不曉得在做什麼也不知道有沒有真的有這一家公司的這個公司你進了一個虛無縹緲的公司他還有另外一個名稱在進來"},{"start":12187.904,"end":12207.152,"text":"所以我們在想說這樣子怎麼對呢?你們總是讓我們吃下去以後告訴我說這有問題吃下去很多以後告訴我們沒有意囖然後你的風險預警系統根本就是失靈然後呢你看這些廠商每年不斷的反覆在違規今年是這一家明年是那一家結果都是同一家族"},{"start":12208.012,"end":12221.805,"text":"然後他們還是不但你上有政策他更何況他下有對策更何況你們上面根本沒有在查查到了就這樣子再換一個公司不同的名稱台灣進口商但是負責任同一家或是同一個家族"},{"start":12222.833,"end":12236.88,"text":"然後在他們會換名字啊一年裡面我我天我這個海順不會一直用海順啊我下一批用釜山再用金山再用加廣輪流使用不同名稱然後分散被查驗的機率和風險所以今天在這裡說你現在沒有辦法一次告訴我們他明明就這麼高風險而且屢屢被查出被查出到你還有100%查驗了結果你後市場放任不管哈"},{"start":12254.039,"end":12258.161,"text":"我們再來對於這種不該存在於食品當中的這些物質那我們就會從百分之百的逐批那我們也會評估之後然後就立刻的停止這些產品的你已經當了這個位置當幾年了啦你未來未來我們有食品雲幾年了你還講說未來以後不會"},{"start":12284.827,"end":12305.767,"text":"那你剛才回答上一個委員講到說如果查到了就下架沒查到呢我們繼續吞下肚嗎所以管理不是這樣子雖然我們知道你們力有未待食品藥品你都是靠業者自律可是當業者不自律這麼久了然後我們一直吞下肚吞那麼久了我們只能自求多福嗎"},{"start":12307.441,"end":12324.478,"text":"在這種狀況裡面,你們講預警預判,你們哪一次成功預警預判?連數據都沒有,連流向都沒有,連這一種那麼公開的紙上公司這麼多輪流進口的,同一個家族的,然後每年都違規的,後市場都放任不管,還要靠檢舉案,整個事件是檢舉案耶!"},{"start":12329.743,"end":12339.411,"text":"這個跟10年前10年前沒有食品雲事件沒有食品雲制度的食安事件還是回到原點沒有更進步所以我們今天在這裡監察院講的食品業者47萬家強制登錄的2%那沒有登錄就已經慘了有登錄的你也沒辦法發生獄派沒辦法有獄警的機制通通都沒有是靠檢舉的"},{"start":12358.786,"end":12375.27,"text":"我剛剛講說你們現在把他鎖定在只有某些特定的廠商或是國家其他沒有嗎其他沒有嗎其他我剛剛就給你舉一個例子了高度的可疑啊 也是累犯啊這些都是累犯所以今天在這裡齁我是覺得啦 部長我看起來這麼多年我們的書店不適任啦不適任啦 也沒有能力"},{"start":12388.086,"end":12402.777,"text":"也不積極也不用心查到啊 又一樣不做市長 查到叫他退官 查到叫他退官夾架毫無風險 查獲不合格 退官他連成本負擔都沒有 因為他沒有進來沒有進來就是一種負擔連風險 喔 我就夾架 我也敢 因為如果叫你去年會做委喔查到沒辦法可以退官而已啊 不用了解啊"},{"start":12416.277,"end":12431.386,"text":"好 那我們謝謝林淑芬委員我們處理臨時提案那請衛福部必須加強這個查核的工作剛剛林委員有提出非常多可能有疑慮的廠商可能要加強查核"},{"start":12433.186,"end":12447.319,"text":"好那我們現在處理臨時提案總共有8案請一併宣讀臨時提案第一案監察院曾於2020年提出調查報告指出目前規定應建立食品追溯系統之業者"},{"start":12449.962,"end":12462.877,"text":"僅約佔所有食品業者之2%且由許多業者並為依法建立食品追溯追蹤系統經查目前食品藥物管理署提供消費者查詢之食品追溯追蹤管理資訊系統"},{"start":12464.458,"end":12489.845,"text":"難以發揮效果．無法保障消費者之飲食安全．原要求行政院食品安全辦公室及衛福部食品藥物管理署．加強食品雲與食品追溯追蹤管理資訊系統之互相勾結．並就食品業者落實強制登錄之責任．擬定完善計劃與措施．提案人委員王育敏蘇清泉、盧憲一、陳金輝、圖全吉第二案"},{"start":12491.045,"end":12511.997,"text":"113年食品藥物管理署查獲大量進口中國製辣椒粉含致癌物蘇丹色素3號危害國人食安甚巨有鑒於大宗食品原料使用範圍廣泛於市場擴散速度遠較其他食品更為快速後續查緝更為困難原要求食藥署應針對食品原料提高邊境查驗檢驗率並研擬完善預警機制提高問題食品下架速度"},{"start":12519.841,"end":12544.633,"text":"提案人委員王玉敏、蘇清泉、盧憲一、陳金輝、屠權吉。第三案有鑒於行政院食品安全辦公室自2016年5月20日迄今皆不曾向法務部請調過檢察官人力辦理相關食安黑心茶器作業相比過往法務部高等檢察署曾派駐檢察官至行政院食品安全辦公室負責協調偵辦並直接在食安管理業務"},{"start":12548.294,"end":12575.261,"text":"應變溝通及稽查取締發揮良好守護國人成果．以凸顯目前行政院食品安全辦公室應積極借盡之需．此特要求行政院食安辦公室現期完成請調檢察官進駐辦公室評估作業．並於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員廖偉翔、陳金輝、蘇清泉、王育敏、圖全吉第4案"},{"start":12576.081,"end":12596.409,"text":"有鑒於按最新行政院食安辦公室官網所揭露資訊目前僅有專職人力4員倘若加上兼任主員的員額及借調的3名人員統計人力也才8員相比這出2014年行政院食安辦公室府成立配置20名專職人員相差甚遠"},{"start":12597.589,"end":12615.502,"text":"原此．要求行政院食安辦公室現期完成人事緣額配置檢討作業．並於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告．提案人委員廖偉祥、陳金輝、蘇星泉、王育敏、圖全吉第五案．案衛福部官方"},{"start":12616.323,"end":12624.228,"text":"第5案考量官方所掌握的55275公斤含蘇丹紅辣椒粉上與整體108178公斤含蘇丹紅的辣椒食品間有整整52903公斤違法黑素氣精流向不明在欠缺清楚的說明交代之下將嚴重影響我國食品安全並侵損國人生命健康原要求限期於一週內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告"},{"start":12646.483,"end":12674.497,"text":"提案人委員：廖偉翔、陳金輝、蘇清泉、王育敏、屠村吉。第6案,鑒於中國辣椒粉蘇丹紅案,雖然衛生福利部已禁止中國21家辣椒粉製造商、出口商的辣椒粉梳台,以影響國內食品產業發展,且引發民眾對食的安心,原要求日後只要梳台產品檢出具食品安全疑慮,且視我國環境部以公告之毒性或關注化學物質,"},{"start":12675.177,"end":12681.079,"text":"一律立即禁止出臺提案人委員陳瑩、林月琴、劉建國、黃秀芳、王振旭"},{"start":12682.421,"end":12696.835,"text":"第7案有鑒於臺中市衛生局於113年1月15日抽驗國產臺糖安心豚梅花肉片檢驗結果發現含有不得檢出的瘦肉精由於農業部已於109年9月7日依據《動物用藥品管理法》第5條第1項第1款之規定公告以行瘦體數"},{"start":12707.265,"end":12709.126,"text":"為禁止國內製造、調劑、輸入、輸出、販售陳列制藥品加上食藥署已說此次臺堂驗出西部特羅不是實驗室污染因此國外進口豬肉是否含有西部特羅受到外界質疑"},{"start":12722.634,"end":12743.508,"text":"原要求衛生福利部應報行政院食品安全辦公室在未查出台塘西部特羅瘦肉精究竟如何出現的原因。完成跨部會調查前以及立法院同意前政府部開放含有瘦肉精豬肉進口提案人委員蘇清泉聯署人委員圖全吉、王育敏、陳金輝"},{"start":12745.129,"end":12769.848,"text":"第8案食藥署提醒人體服用過量的瘦肉精可能會產生中毒症狀醫師蘇一峰補充瘦肉精也是體育禁藥因此運動員、老人、孕婦、幼兒以及心血管及病患者在食用上務必特別留意有鑒於臺中市衛生局於113年1月15日抽驗國產臺唐安心豚梅花肉片"},{"start":12770.988,"end":12792.815,"text":"檢驗結果發現含有不得檢出的瘦肉精西部特羅0.002ppm引起社會關注．原要求衛生福利部應全面檢測市售國內外肉品是否除了萊克多巴胺以外上含其他類型之乙型瘦體素瘦肉精提案人委員蘇清泉聯署人委員圖權及陳金輝、王育敏宣讀完畢"},{"start":12793.8,"end":12799.942,"text":"好 那我們現在來處理這八項臨時提案那請問第一案行政單位跟委員有沒有意見好委員好 我們是有一些文字要修正那第一段的部分第一段就是2%之後的那個我們是不是可以刪掉"},{"start":12818.387,"end":12818.427,"text":"食品資訊專櫃"},{"start":12848.943,"end":12869.3,"text":"在第三行的後面那裡就是業者並未及時更新那後面的一個逗點之後的那個難以發揮這個要劃掉劃掉的是難以發揮食品追溯追蹤之效果這也劃掉然後後面是無法及時提供產品資訊與消費者"},{"start":12873.57,"end":12899.604,"text":"什麼就是從那個更新之後的我把它念一下更新之後業者並未及時更新無法及時提供產品資訊於消費者於消費者給消費者與消費者對還有呢那到第三段這裡第三段這裡是第二行在追溯追蹤管理資訊系統我們就加一個食品資訊專櫃"},{"start":12902.192,"end":12906.838,"text":"加食品資訊專櫃之互相勾結並舊改成並輔導食品業者提高產品資訊揭露之意願並擬定輔導計劃"},{"start":12920.259,"end":12945.212,"text":"是意願啊?你的意思是就是用尊重的方式嗎?剛剛林淑芬委員也有問這個啊?這是業者他們自己...所以你現在沒有任何強制性就是了?要登錄不登錄?對,這個專櫃是這樣,但是我們的追溯追蹤系統那個就是屬於強制的那這邊專櫃是屬於業者自己上去登錄的你是說專櫃這邊就只能用輔導不能用強制目前現行是這樣是不是?是"},{"start":12946.701,"end":12969.371,"text":"好 那就修正通過 來 第二案謝謝 好 那第二案7、8先是不是 你要趕車好 來 那接下來7、8我們蘇委員因為因為他比較 路途比較遙遠我們先處理一下好 那第7案這裡第7案這裡有修改一些文字那在1、2、3、4、5、6第6行"},{"start":12973.035,"end":12984.911,"text":"第6行最後那裡寫不是實驗室污染這個改為為個案事件為個案事件那另外在後面這裡"},{"start":12986.799,"end":13008.878,"text":"從因此開始,因此開始這裡,到最後這裡,像那個萊克多巴胺的西布特羅的這個毒性這個,台大的賴秀穗教授已經澄清過了,當時他因為在外面,所以他沒有聽得很清楚,他以為是另外一項的乙型受體數,所以他"},{"start":13009.318,"end":13029.742,"text":"後來澄清說希伯特羅的其實目前大家都還不是有很清楚的研究那大概比較證實的是只有過敏的相關的一些作用那是不是我們這裡就把污染為個案事件就是本來實驗室污染這個改為為個案事件那在後面這一段就通通都刪掉"},{"start":13032.666,"end":13054.147,"text":"所以其實食藥署也認為這是個案事件,不是定調說實驗室污染,你們沒有這樣講嗎?對不對?因為我們現在沒有任何證據證明是實驗室污染嘛,對不對?就是沒有辦法排除,但是因為大家找不到原因對啊,所以找不到原因就要說找不到原因,我覺得很大膽去說實驗室污染這是不對的"},{"start":13055.031,"end":13059.133,"text":"第二段這裡是原提案要求衛福部然後頓浩農業部及行政院食品安全辦公室那逗點之後應積極調查"},{"start":13085.375,"end":13106.769,"text":"臺堂西部特羅瘦肉精究竟如何出現的原因那後面的就再就據點後面就後面而逗點對不起逗點然後並盡速對外說明其他的就劃掉這樣書員可以嗎好可以同意那就按剛剛文字修正通過來第8好第8"},{"start":13108.618,"end":13133.997,"text":"第8的第二段,第二段這裡,第二段這裡我們是原提案要求衛福部因後面的話調,那我們剛剛有跟委員提過文字的修正是因提案要求衛福部因持續強化抽驗、市售國內外豬肉產品檢驗已行受體述括號含西部特羅"},{"start":13139.441,"end":13149.8,"text":"對對對對我們現在的法定方法就是21項以行授提訴可以齁所以好那就按呃這個剛消暑的修正文字通過來接下來第二案"},{"start":13150.606,"end":13154.287,"text":"請食藥署依食安法對於輸入之不合格產品情況較嚴重者多好"},{"start":13177.372,"end":13188.039,"text":"依舊該地區之其他製造商輸入相同產品都好採取加速提升邊境查驗強度那後面那個呢就是你們的預警機制呢去提高"},{"start":13201.222,"end":13227.618,"text":"問題食品下架的速度這次蘇丹紅其實剛剛委員都在講你們那個速度其實還蠻緩慢的就從去年第一例開始出現的時候那個的示警看起來並沒有讓所有的這個後市場或者是地方政府全面警醒這個可能要非常加強重點查緝啊所以這個提案還有後端的這個目的那那個都保留好了好不好後段文字你們還是保留好"},{"start":13229.241,"end":13255.322,"text":"好 那就按照這個剛剛的修正通過 來 第三案報告召委 第三案行政單位沒意見沒意見齁 好 通過 謝謝 來 第四案那個第四案剛剛有先跟廖委員有先討論過那個有關於食安辦的人力第二行建議刪除專職人力四個字"},{"start":13257.163,"end":13279.381,"text":"就是目前僅有4員然後並等等等都沒改然後到第4行的3名人員分號對 候號加共計8人然後那個下一句總計人力也才8員到相比劃掉然後下一句是最初"},{"start":13281.613,"end":13301.464,"text":"2014年行政院食安辦公室府成立這幾個字還在但是從配置20名專職人員這邊要修正因為我們其實當時的院內專職4人到現在都是一樣都沒變當時也沒有20人是從各部會調進來所以這樣寫是不對剛有跟委員說明過"},{"start":13305.106,"end":13315.736,"text":"所以這邊府成立之後改成由相關部會及院內人員支援不同那"},{"start":13319.366,"end":13347.701,"text":"然後再來是原此特提案要求行政院食安辦公室限期完成人事原額從中間的那一邊都劃掉一直到原此然後配額原額配置本來是檢討作業那這個檢討改成評估作業然後並於本來寫一個月內向本院社會福利及"},{"start":13348.781,"end":13351.985,"text":"衛生環境委員會一個月改成三個月"},{"start":13361.001,"end":13383.068,"text":"好第5案剛剛也跟廖委員有溝通過那第二段的部分有一些數據其實目前不是很清楚所以那些數據有劃掉所以我念一下是以考量官方所掌握那後面的數據就劃掉含蘇丹紅辣椒粉流向"},{"start":13385.785,"end":13410.852,"text":"不明將嚴重影響我國食品安全然後這中間的就是劃掉了齁並清損這個劃掉原要求限期一週內向本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告好可以齁好謝謝那則案修正通過來第6案好第6案照案辦理好"},{"start":13418.73,"end":13427.896,"text":"主席宣告我們中午就不休息我們就持續進行巡打那大家便當已經發到桌上大家可以自行用便當那接下來我們請陳雪生委員進行巡打好謝謝主席是不是請薛部長好我們請部長"},{"start":13444.711,"end":13472.648,"text":"部長午安我就接續上個禮拜五總諮詢的時候這個諮詢到部裡面是不是要把馬祖縣的醫院改為部立醫院有沒有這回事我非常嚴重不是非常嚴肅的請教部長這一個部分的話我們其實有跟地方政府那邊詢問過他們的意願跟地方政府的誰?"},{"start":13474.97,"end":13500.355,"text":"是誰跟誰對口、接口?因為我們主要可能是去接觸的人是在衣服會啦我再次查證,縣長沒有?副縣長沒有?衛生局沒有?縣立醫院院長沒有?你是跟哪個科研還是跟哪個公友在對口?我這部分的話我再確認一下好,那麼有個廣告齁"},{"start":13502.091,"end":13521.184,"text":"是民進黨連江縣黨部主任委員李問他說他去見過王必勝次長王次長答應他把連江縣立醫院改為部立醫院"},{"start":13523.237,"end":13550.771,"text":"部長我向你求證有沒有這回事沒有那次長有事要不要跟你報告對至少我這邊沒有接收到這個訊息縣立醫院改為部立醫院這是政策喔對這不是事務性的事情喔對次長沒有這個權限嗎應該如果真的有這樣的政策應該是會到我這邊來我以後來做決定這個一定是經過部裡面的署去研議嗎對"},{"start":13552.25,"end":13560.276,"text":"也有很多事情在裡面喔這裡人事、經費、土地、面積、認免、簽調是不是還有裡面的設備簽設很廣那麼研究好以後由署裡面"},{"start":13569.011,"end":13597.48,"text":"然後次長跟部長報告,部長可能還沒那個權喔還需要報告到行政院有關於人力有關於預算還有財政部還有行政院主計處還有行政院人事總署部長是不是這樣?是所以我今天向你求證,沒有這個事情嗎?目前還沒有討論到這個事情那有沒有可能?如果有的話更好啊如果連江縣立議院能夠成為部立議院的話不管如何"},{"start":13599.063,"end":13621.938,"text":"心臟內科、心臟外科、神經內科、神經外科那這裡面土地的面積由原來的軍醫院就跟金門一樣金門縣在花崗石醫院跟金門縣合併以後金門縣立醫院可以改為衛生所啊是不是?然後他可以跟農民總醫院去合嘛,你們部立醫院有醫生可以派出嘛"},{"start":13623.184,"end":13650.772,"text":"所以說這個部分其實是牽涉是蠻廣的啦所以沒有辦法這樣子沒有經過很詳細的評估同意也是一樣嘛是不是尤其我們前兩任的縣長都是醫學院出來的都醫學院出來的喔他們也是搞公衛的啊也是陳建仁院長的學生指導教授研究所的指導教授"},{"start":13651.889,"end":13678.965,"text":"都很清楚嘛馬祖人口一萬多人,金門十萬人,澎湖十五萬人因為他現在的人口土地面積都不一樣嘛是不是所以他這裡面的結構已經行之有年了那麼卻由一個人不在馬祖心不在馬祖戶口在馬祖的人在那邊很像說這是我執政黨的資源我執政黨的優勢然後在那邊亂"},{"start":13681.769,"end":13692.843,"text":"不好吧所以那時候因為在選舉期間我也沒有去向衛福部去求證這個事情所以今天藉這個機會因為我這個人也是"},{"start":13694.189,"end":13711.77,"text":"很大量的人我不是那麼小氣我沒有那麼小氣而且從事醫療的服務我不是醫生但是我協助很多的病人馬祖尤其那麼遠的地方來這邊我都可以相當的協助我不是醫生但是我對"},{"start":13713.689,"end":13735.591,"text":"醫療的需求我是非常清楚的我是非常清楚的所以謝謝部長在這邊我向你求證不過有機會能夠把馬祖成為部立醫院我們的縣立醫院變成衛生所然後把我們的軍醫院能夠擴大變成部立醫院能夠跟金門一樣"},{"start":13736.656,"end":13759.227,"text":"因為他們的訴求是講說像金門你看成立部立醫院以後那邊的病人不要後送到台灣來據我瞭解每個月西腰山洞的飛機用單架送過來的40幾個人40幾個人也不是說成立部立醫院以後就在金門做外科手術就好了"},{"start":13760.189,"end":13788.304,"text":"一樣送來台灣做外科手術啊因為這個外科手術要很多橫向的互相的醫療的支援嘛部長是不是這樣不是說單一力量可以完成的你再有名的醫生到了金門到了澎湖你沒有他的協力醫院協力的醫生來協力麻醉科啊等等心臟科啊這些等等沒有協助他他一樣無法完成重大的手術嘛"},{"start":13789.397,"end":13803.485,"text":"部長是不是這樣子?是,沒有錯那我想部長是不是有機會回去啊?有機會的話,如果馬祖能夠成立部立醫院,我也希望部長能夠成全還是要評估啦是的,因為現在縣立醫院很多的經費"},{"start":13804.81,"end":13830.303,"text":"我們地方政府要出錢那我們的地方政府你曉得大概跟澎湖的財力差不多基本上因為有酒可以賣賺了一點錢我所以謝謝部長過去對我們馬祖醫療的支援跟協助還補助我們一些醫療的設備我想部長在這一個方面能夠允諾我繼續給馬祖這方面醫療的支援好不好好"},{"start":13831.314,"end":13842.037,"text":"這部分的話,我們一定是盡量來支持是,謝謝部長也謝謝署裡面的長官部裡面的長官也謝謝主席,謝謝我們謝謝陳雪生委員關心馬祖地區的醫療問題那接下來我們請洪孟楷委員進行質詢主席謝謝,麻煩請薛部長"},{"start":13869.24,"end":13880.803,"text":"蘇丹紅事件,尤其是蘇丹紅現在變成是說不只是一開始傳出來說有可能加在豬肉乾、餅乾甚至連知名火鍋店都有大家有可能都已經吃下肚了"},{"start":13881.323,"end":13898.56,"text":"那我們現在想請教一下你的報告裡面也寫到是說從去年就已經開始檢驗那並且有在去年的12月11號有百分之百的逐批查驗查驗合格才使得輸入那為什麼還是國人還看到是說還是現在有這樣子四散在民生賣場"},{"start":13899.352,"end":13902.456,"text":"所以你現在講是說現在這一些流竄在市面的都是去年12月以前"},{"start":13920.197,"end":13929.365,"text":"目前就是我們正在追查的我們正在追查的也就是說這一些漏網之魚的話我們就一個一個要去追究到底現在我們有沒有掌握多少的量已經進來"},{"start":13946.277,"end":13974.736,"text":"這個量的話可能我還要再算一下我們今天討論了半天然後你今天也告訴大家說食安蘇丹紅事件的檢討報告調查然後結果到目前我們國人就最關心嘛你告訴我們說12月11號百分之百逐批檢驗所以換言之12月11號你們才講到是說要百分之百逐批檢驗但你從什麼時候開始你從2022年邊境就已經開始有高比例的不合格"},{"start":13975.396,"end":14001.574,"text":"五萬多公斤不合格然後結果你一年多之後到2023年的12月才用百分之百竹皮檢驗換言之你從2022年到2023年一年多的時間都還是有漏網之魚那現在不只豬肉乾不只餅乾然後知名火鍋店冬天到了說不定在場很多人都吃了火鍋"},{"start":14003.206,"end":14023.877,"text":"跟委員報告2022那時候在檢測的時候大部分都屬於農藥不合格並沒有說去檢測到有蘇丹紅是到2023年才開始有出現蘇丹紅的檢測的一個結果出來那我跟委員報告部長你要不要看一下你今天的報告怎麼寫的"},{"start":14026.151,"end":14042.322,"text":"邊境全面逐批查驗111年就是2022年抽驗9批5萬多公斤不合格檢驗蘇丹紅色素這是你自己的報告啊結果你現在告訴我們說不是你自己說自己說不對啊"},{"start":14047.438,"end":14068.459,"text":"比較簡單的來部長因為今天我有兩個議題要請教你那我想蘇丹紅事件已經剛剛很多委員都已經問過了我也看到你現在要列為高風險稽查其實我本身很好奇啊百分之百的逐批查驗照理講就是最高等級百分之百然後你現在還說什麼高風險稽查玩文字遊戲是不是"},{"start":14069.48,"end":14071.482,"text":"本期真的不希望說只是玩文字遊戲而是說看到實際的動作"},{"start":14099.022,"end":14115.476,"text":"那是不是確認一下剛剛本席問的就是說到底這段時間有多少可能已經流入市面被國人消費被國人食用了這一些量能不能給本席在今天下班前給我一個答覆那我們把這一個數字再給委員今天下班前請給本席一個答覆再來部長"},{"start":14116.937,"end":14121.579,"text":"本席從去年就已經有要求就是針對醫院病床數的一個檢討就所謂的醫療次分區的一個狀況我找到去年的新聞3月21號"},{"start":14134.428,"end":14151.809,"text":"當時有講說衛福部的這個署長也來本席辦公室跟本席這邊討論講說一年內會針對全國醫療次分區進行全重新規劃包括說重點地區臺北市、新北市、嘉義縣市等重點優先送衛福部的一個審查"},{"start":14153.03,"end":14177.066,"text":"那我想請教現在進度在哪裡這個要召開醫審會來做最後的一個確認去年已經有講本期也在總質詢的時候有詢問當時的行政院長當時您也在旁嘛那時候我講是說因為我們的北海岸地區包括淡水、山芝、石門等北海岸地區醫療是受到限制的那一直沒有辦法爭取大型醫療院所最主要是病床數受限"},{"start":14177.446,"end":14201.884,"text":"那我們的醫療四分區是跟臺北市的士林北投劃在一起也因此臺北市的大型醫療院所已經把我們的病床數給吃掉了那現在要檢討脫鉤啊那當時的署長也來本席辦公室講說不只是新北臺北有這樣的問題包括嘉義縣市更明顯你們在去年11月的時候衛環委員會還有去嘉義縣市做實地考察也有講到這個問題嘛那現在請教一年過去了"},{"start":14205.367,"end":14225.36,"text":"很快喔這個處理的速度我在跟委員,會後我們再跟委員報告有沒有在進行?有在進行那什麼時候能夠有一個明確的答覆?應該會需要開一次一審會啦一審會,但是在一審會之前的話可能需要先跟地方政府那邊確認說他們的"},{"start":14228.442,"end":14229.283,"text":"部長,什麼時候能做到?"},{"start":14250.799,"end":14263.37,"text":"我想一審會我的理解應該這個月或下個月就會開啦四月底以前會開今天是三月初嘛這個月或下個月一審會會開會討論到醫療次分區對要不要確認一下你現在講出來可能又會變是一個媒體的標題喔好"},{"start":14276.156,"end":14300.291,"text":"這部分的話我想就是說我們盡速啦我希望是在4月之前的話希望4月之前兩個月內部長你不可以說520不一定在那你當一天和尚敲一天鐘嘛你就是要做嘛那還有這種帶退老兵心態嘛在那個之前我就把這個事情處理好520之前把這件事情給處理好"},{"start":14301.667,"end":14302.007,"text":"接下來我們請謝依鳳委員進行質詢"},{"start":14340.583,"end":14343.925,"text":"謝謝主席。我想要請薛部長。從剛才大家的質詢,其實我們知道"},{"start":14354.448,"end":14379.323,"text":"那即便是現在我們想要擴大邊境檢驗那我們的人力到底是否足夠那未來這樣子的事件今天只是蘇丹紅而已那未來就是說在食安方面我們的邊境檢驗的人力不夠的情況下那有沒有辦法遏止就是所有就是這些影響食品添加重大的這些元素的進口"},{"start":14381.604,"end":14393.693,"text":"其實我們也不可能所有的食品進口的部分的話通通要非常高的一個比例的一個檢驗所以重點是第一個要把風險分級把這個風險分級做好"},{"start":14398.928,"end":14409.158,"text":"你也說檢驗人力不夠,那你們是要增加檢驗的人力嗎?當然在人力的部分,我們是希望能夠增加人力,但是要跟行政院那邊來爭取"},{"start":14411.65,"end":14434.958,"text":"那還有其實我們知道食安五環裡面地方政府也是重要的一環那你們跟地方政府的合作就是如果都是劍拔弩張的時候尤其是在查驗到如此重大影響食安問題的情況下那到底地方政府他們因應的措施如何"},{"start":14435.618,"end":14463.87,"text":"那是不是應該也給就是說所有的地方政府知道我覺得不要分藍綠同樣都是同樣的同等的這樣子的因為你們檢驗的實驗室檢驗的量能都是同樣的嘛是不是那在同樣的情況下那是不是應該立即反映未來處理程序的SOP是如何是不是給所有的民眾以及所有地方政府我們一套共同的檢驗標準"},{"start":14465.37,"end":14484.355,"text":"這一個部分的話其實我已經有責成食藥署在這個部分的話那我們會再召集各個縣市的這個檢驗單位那一起來處理這個問題我們要把那個SOB弄好了因為這一次其實其實我們跟地方的合作一直都非常好"},{"start":14484.875,"end":14498.061,"text":"只是說這一次因為臺中實驗室的西部特樓這個事件雙方有稍微有一點點緊張的關係但是這裡面的話其實有一些SOP必須要把它處理好了因為"},{"start":14500.39,"end":14520.004,"text":"在這過去當中老實講並沒有那你們現在處理好了沒有沒有辦法給大家一個清楚的交代因為如果啦說實在就在實驗室發現這個情況下怎麼樣子做垂直檢驗水平檢驗這就是給一個民眾一個清白嘛不要大家對於食用豬肉有疑慮嘛"},{"start":14520.725,"end":14546.317,"text":"那大家也知道怎麼樣挑選安全的豬肉嘛這都是民眾想知道這才是真正保護食安的做法那我再問一個就是現在我們的那個醫學中心那你北部多了三家那你是不是排擠到了中南部的醫療職員那個健保的分配是如何分配那我看到的是"},{"start":14548.018,"end":14577.417,"text":"新竹的臺大新竹分院它即便升了醫學中心之後它的掛號費也沒有升反降那為什麼其他地區的這個掛號費到底標準是什麼為什麼是標準不一掛號費的部分的話在從很久很久以前的話我們都已經是變為它是一個行政的費用是收到你們健保局沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":14577.717,"end":14593.433,"text":"叫做醫院收的因為它是醫院裡面的行政費用不是屬於醫療費用所以原則上並不受政府機關的管制但是我們會要求每一家醫療院所"},{"start":14594.594,"end":14594.614,"text":"還有"},{"start":14609.571,"end":14630.964,"text":"健保的支援也影響到醫師選擇科別其實我們看到最近最明顯的我們中部的兒童醫院尤其是發生了一些重大的意外的事故以後發現兒童醫院的醫師比例專科醫師比例偏低"},{"start":14632.105,"end":14651.587,"text":"我亦同胞了解了我們四大皆空的所謂的內科外科等等的醫師都偏低那未來這個情況怎麼解決我們當然不想要像南韓一樣其實醫生就是全台灣可能沒有缺醫師但是怎麼樣子在"},{"start":14652.848,"end":14672.544,"text":"尊重他們的自由意識下,怎麼樣子把他導向這個缺的專科醫師缺的科別,你們未來的規劃如何?這個部分我還跟你們報告,因為少子化的關係,所以這個兒科的病人是人數是減少了,所以兒科醫師會覺得他們沒有什麼樣的前景"},{"start":14673.004,"end":14686.643,"text":"那目前我們有推出一個優化兒童醫療照護的計畫,這裡面的話就會對於一些兒科的這個住院醫師在接受這個訓練的專科醫師訓練的這些住院醫師,會給他薪資的補助"},{"start":14691.048,"end":14717.624,"text":"那其他缺的部分呢因為現在兒科缺最多啦其他像說婦產科目前招生的情況還好那外科也還好內科的話因為他是大內科去算所以看起來好像有一些是沒有收滿但是有一些其實是競爭也蠻激烈的所以內科還要進一步去做分析"},{"start":14718.244,"end":14742.458,"text":"那兒科的部分目前所知大概是情況是比較慘的所以我們針對兒科先做處理所以你們會先針對兒科先做處理那至於健保的就是醫療資源怎麼樣子不讓所有的醫療資源都集中在北部而應該對於中南部的就是偏鄉的醫療也有相關的照護我覺得這也是非常重要的是不是對"},{"start":14743.88,"end":14744.88,"text":"這是目前正在改善當中好 謝謝"},{"start":14774.209,"end":14777.67,"text":"馬文君、馬文君、馬文君委員不在李燕秀、李燕秀、李燕秀委員不在游皓、游皓、游皓委員不在"},{"start":14796.089,"end":14796.869,"text":"接下來我們請陳瑩委員進行質詢"},{"start":14838.547,"end":14838.667,"text":"委員好"},{"start":14846.841,"end":14871.47,"text":"部長好依照現行的規定那個輸入一般食品不需要先做預先做審查但是輸入這個錠狀還有膠囊狀的食品就要先向食藥署辦理這個查驗登記那個什麼健康食品健康食品一般的食品那但是呢"},{"start":14873.916,"end":14900.555,"text":"就是說剛剛講就是說這個輸入那個定狀跟膠囊狀的食品就要先向食藥署來辦理這個查驗登記嘛那主要這個部分是依據這個食安法第21條的規定也是為了確保就是說這一類的食品以及這個食品的原料跟這個食品添加物符合我國的規定然後來保障我們國人的健康嘛主要是為了這樣"},{"start":14901.696,"end":14929.109,"text":"但是呢我們現在去看這個蝦皮上面有一堆代購或者是平行輸入的賣家他是沒有經過這個查驗登記就在上面販售定狀膠囊狀的食品更誇張的是有業者呢他們發現說他們準備進行查驗登記的產品那如果依國內相關規定他的食品原料還有添加物是需要做調整的"},{"start":14929.309,"end":14929.629,"text":"請勿模仿"},{"start":14955.783,"end":14972.778,"text":"應該要下架這些沒有經過茶葉登記的產品那避免說這個網路購物成為就是說我們食安上的另外一個破口那我們也要保障國人的健康以及這個合法進口代理商的這個權益"},{"start":14975.159,"end":15002.566,"text":"實要署表示有些狀況是賣家在網路平台架設廣告消費者下訂之後商品是從國外再寄到台灣來因為法規沒有禁止自用輸入所以很難證明這個部分是個人要使用的還是說代購自己代進台灣之後在網路上違法販售的"},{"start":15003.126,"end":15027.343,"text":"那這些廣告因為它也沒有中文標示所以明顯違反食安法那代理商可以就沒有中文標示的部分進行檢舉那在這個衛福部公告的這個錠狀、膠囊狀的食品因依法辦理查驗登記那當然剛剛講過目的也是為了我們國人的健康那但是面對說目前我們蝦皮、臉書還有LINE這些販售的錠狀、膠囊狀的食品"},{"start":15031.787,"end":15036.817,"text":"食藥署卻很難說去證明是自用還是違法"},{"start":15039.03,"end":15062.051,"text":"剛剛就後來就是建議說用這個建議這個合法的代理商以標示不符規定來進行檢舉本期是認為說這樣的方式是一個比較消極的這個做法啦好那我是不認不太認同這樣那也是希望而且是在去年預算審查的時候我也有提案要求食藥署針對這個部分進行檢討"},{"start":15064.053,"end":15064.373,"text":"請署長先回答"},{"start":15089.352,"end":15106.905,"text":"委員好 針對這個部分其實我們一直都跟平台在溝通我們希望平台也幫我們把關就是說當他這些產品要上架的話他要看到他其實已經經過我們查驗登記不過有時候有些平台並沒有那麼配合這個確實是還需要再 我們再找他們來開會"},{"start":15108.386,"end":15127.792,"text":"所以如果這些平台不配合的時候食藥署有什麼更積極的方式嗎?根本報告其實是這樣子平台的管理是一件事情因為它是涉及到就是資訊提供跟廣告的問題但是不管怎麼樣最後會有真實的實際的貨品會進來"},{"start":15131.367,"end":15145.257,"text":"對所以這些沒有經過查案登記的剛剛我提到這類的食品的話那事實上他一旦提供就就是已經違法那我是認為因為在在這個"},{"start":15147.338,"end":15164.27,"text":"平台處理一定有困難度有些架設在國外我們也沒有辦法直接從那邊去做取締如果是在國內我們倒是可以要求他下架"},{"start":15165.071,"end":15193.033,"text":"但是不管怎麼樣這種違規的產品如果到了消費者的手裡的話其實就很容易會造成傷害所以我們是希望我們會要求食藥署這邊就提高檢舉因為一定是內部人才容易找得到說他問題比較容易能夠掌握說他這些商品到底跑到哪裡去"},{"start":15195.061,"end":15208.908,"text":"主要這個不管是檢舉查緝這個我想這個比重專注度我都希望我們在這個過去比較難抓到的這些我們要加強"},{"start":15212.849,"end":15230.494,"text":"過去監察委員林國明以及王立正委員他們在2021年10月有針對違法廣告產品不斷危害國人健康及消費者權益有糾正衛福部面對監察院的糾正食藥署分別在2022年8月和2024年1月"},{"start":15233.054,"end":15256.39,"text":"有修正的這個食品安全衛生管理法第45條規定廣告處理原則那希望透過這個加權的事項加重這個採取的力道嚇阻違規食品的廣告那現在的問題是在於就是說網路媒體他是非常快速的蓬勃發展那就像我剛剛先前有針對這個衛福部"},{"start":15258.551,"end":15281.462,"text":"應該是說上一屆本席也針對衛福部官員肖像被盜用的違規藥品廣告那我也質詢了幾次那最後衛福部也只能就是說很無奈表示說這些廣告IP位置都在國外查不到、發不到那無法要求下架來回應我們那所以我想要請教部長如果"},{"start":15282.242,"end":15303.175,"text":"食藥署的這個加權事項加重採取的力道到最後都只能罰到廣播電視還有這個購物頻道的這些等等的媒體那這是不是變相我們有在鼓勵說業者以後都用國外的IP位置來做廣告"},{"start":15304.316,"end":15328.338,"text":"因為那個罰到的都是在國內有繳稅的嘛那反而在國外這些違法的罰不到以後大家都倒掉了業績不好然後都跑到國外去國外的這些產品的話他要送到國內給個別的消費者的時候他一定會中間有一個中間商因為他不太可能說直接從國外然後經由這一個"},{"start":15330.12,"end":15354.725,"text":"物流然後就直接送到那個消費者所以通常他會有一個中間的儲存的一個地方也就是說會有一家公司在處理這個事件所以我剛剛提到的就是我們希望就是說經由這個檢舉然後來做去查獲這樣子那就可以找得到因為這些實際上的商品是實際存在的"},{"start":15355.905,"end":15381.937,"text":"一旦讓我們破獲破獲之後的話那在處罰上面的話是蠻重的就剛剛委員提到的所以因為主要是這個監察院這個檢舉其實他也有提到就是說國內各類新興媒體持續蓬勃發展那違規食品廣告手法不斷翻新以佔各媒體廣告的這個總違規件數近六成之網站食品廣告"},{"start":15383.017,"end":15406.388,"text":"監控強度卻不及廣播、電視等傳統媒體所以我剛剛也點出這個問題啊那所以就是說針對這些新興的媒體那特別是IP位置在國外的部分那剛剛部長有特別講我們就是加強這個檢舉的部分那我也希望這些專漏洞的這些國外在IP我們是不是"},{"start":15407.708,"end":15430.902,"text":"可以就是說我也希望當然你們人力有限我也了解但是我希望說是不是我們可以就大家專注在這個部分因為確實現在大家都上蝦皮去看我覺得這些問題是比我們這個國內容易抓到這個要難度高一點但也比較嚴重啦所以我在這邊特別點出這個問題"},{"start":15432.003,"end":15458.172,"text":"所以我們的意思就是說不要太過執著在那個要去查廣告而是必須要查實體實體的東西查才比較有機會去查得到那這個如果透過這個檢舉讓我們查到我們可以把這些處罰的這個金額的話的一部分都要當成這個檢舉獎金那這樣子的檢舉獎金的額度就會很高"},{"start":15460.387,"end":15479.18,"text":"可以來鼓勵民眾來做檢舉好那謝謝部長的回應那我們也給食藥署加油啦大家辛苦那希望說我提的這個專注在可以更專注在這邊好謝謝好謝謝陳穎委員的質詢接下來我們請王洪威委員進行質詢"},{"start":15494.656,"end":15498.222,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我請薛部長。"},{"start":15508.553,"end":15531.046,"text":"今天我們的專案報告是針對蘇丹紅蔓延全台以目前我們所掌握到的相關的資訊整個的狀況是不是已經獲得控制還是說整個含有這個違規的這個蘇丹紅的這些添加的這些相關的食品或者進口公司還會再繼續擴大"},{"start":15533.507,"end":15554.272,"text":"這部分的話其實是我們循線往下再去這個追查的時候那我們是不是說一旦是那家公司進來那我沒有我這個我都想現在你們所掌握到現在能不能敢確定他不會再擴大還是說不敢確定"},{"start":15554.912,"end":15555.052,"text":"蘇丹紅事件"},{"start":15583.381,"end":15600.546,"text":"請問部長這個是個案呢還是系統性的事件他是系統性的事件承認是系統性事件所以因此你們也在邊境的管制的部分是非常快速的去修改了食品輸入的查驗辦法對不對所以只要"},{"start":15601.186,"end":15601.926,"text":"蘇丹紅事件"},{"start":15620.396,"end":15641.763,"text":"那我想請問,我們食安,我們以後都是採降SOP嗎?要看它的風險,產品的風險,風險高的就需要這樣子所以按照這樣的一個,我們當我們要把食安的漏洞,能夠快速的去掌控的時候"},{"start":15642.623,"end":15654.534,"text":"立刻查驗到立刻採取動作其實就是SOP嗎好所以我們就回到來下一頁那我們再看這個這個視頻很多好"},{"start":15655.697,"end":15678.425,"text":"也就是在台糖瘦肉精的部分這個當然討論非常非常多次那麼我們陳建仁院長特別提到的是你瘦肉精沒有給台糖15天的復驗的時間那同樣蘇丹紅我們現在修改相關辦法業者也可以跟你講說你怎麼沒有給我復驗時間"},{"start":15680.16,"end":15708.952,"text":"是不是所以如果現在是對的那麼之前在瘦肉精的部分院長講說你要給台堂15天申請復驗啊怎麼立刻就公佈了那這樣的程序不就是錯的了嗎跟委員報告這15天可以來申請復驗這是在法律的一個規定的所以不管是瘦肉精還是蘇丹紅蘇丹紅同樣這一個廠商也可以來申請復驗"},{"start":15710.117,"end":15723.989,"text":"可是他立刻要停止進口喔?你有採取立即措施嗎?採取立即措施是為了安全預防的起見但是他是可以申請復驗申請復驗的時候他就需要有樣本可以讓他來復驗"},{"start":15726.701,"end":15731.984,"text":"所以我現在問你的是按照蘇丹紅這個狀況任何公司你被驗出之後雲林縣政府驗出立刻發布對不對這個是本來"},{"start":15751.656,"end":15756.285,"text":"發佈不發佈是由這個地方政府．對嘛．所以因為縣政府很正確嘛"},{"start":15757.318,"end":15782.597,"text":"我們沒有說他不正確我們只是說他應該要小心我們說他應該要小心因為第一次驗到那種部長因為我也不想耽誤其他我們委員質詢的時間我的要我的要點就是食安問題不要因為政治性考量給他雙標你看我這兩個你台中市政府立刻發布預警你們覺得他有問題"},{"start":15783.92,"end":15810.841,"text":"雲林縣政府你覺得他沒有問題對不對因為狀況有點不太一樣收入金這一個部分的話是第一個驗到的是一個從來沒有驗到過的東西而且國內並沒有直接有進口只有在實驗室的那第二個就是當你驗到的時候你要對外公佈是後面還有一系列的事情要做你不是雲林縣政府也是驗出立刻發布嗎你們為了這個"},{"start":15812.242,"end":15826.803,"text":"不要因為為了要對付台中市政府而破壞了SOP而犧牲食安而也不要讓未來的縣市政府以後碰到這些問題都要猶豫不決"},{"start":15830.375,"end":15852.869,"text":"跟委員報告雲林那邊其實它也有驗產品然後又驗原料所以它最後向上風暴的時候是2月6號但是其實檢舉的話是1月8號而這個1月19號雲林衛生局就去檢查人家台中市政府之前也驗了很多次但是狀況不一樣"},{"start":15854.83,"end":15855.93,"text":"我們謝謝王宏威委員進行的質詢"},{"start":15876.534,"end":15895.366,"text":"林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在麥玉珍、麥玉珍、麥玉珍委員不在邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在何新成、何新成、何新成委員不在張家俊、張家俊、張家俊委員不在黃建豪、黃建豪、黃建豪委員不在黃國昌委員"},{"start":15913.063,"end":15941.405,"text":"謝謝主席來有請部長好請部長委員好部長好剛剛部長在回答其他委員質詢的時候已經講得很清楚了蘇丹紅的事件是一個系統性的問題嗎對這不是個案嗎不是那這個系統性的問題什麼時候發生的其實是它是逐漸的那個什麼時候再去什麼時候你們認為是一個系統性的問題"},{"start":15943.57,"end":15957.555,"text":"這個是從大約是去年啦 去年的時候對 什麼時候你們認為它是系統性的問題應該是說從5月拉 我們 去年5月從去年5月我們就對 什麼時候你們認為它是一個系統性的問題 這問題有這麼難回答嗎"},{"start":15959.781,"end":15975.853,"text":"去年5月我們就開始有加強抽批嘛所以我們懷疑它是一個系統性的問題那什麼時候懷疑陳真?什麼時候從你們懷疑認為它是一個系統性的問題是到今天才這樣認定嗎?當然不是啊那是什麼時候?"},{"start":15977.535,"end":15981.14,"text":"為什麼當初行政院院長陳建仁在提台灣食安報告總檢討專案報告的時候蘇丹紅三個字半個字都沒寫"},{"start":15993.168,"end":16019.609,"text":"所以那個時候還沒有認為是系統性現在才認為是系統性嗎好啦沒有關係啦我直接進入今天的問題啦齁有兩家高雄的廠商一個是金站國際一個是加廣從你們的新聞稿說驗出7批蘇丹紅辣椒粉嘛那他們進口的數量也不少那從你們7批驗出來的你們跟社會大眾講的下一頁"},{"start":16021.648,"end":16040.968,"text":"你們說保存期限到什麼時候他是什麼時候輸入的這個資訊的是不是能夠做得好一點他什麼時候輸入的我不care他的保存期限到什麼時候他已經被封了嘛他已經被查扣了嘛不能用嘛那你跟我講他什麼"},{"start":16043.862,"end":16049.504,"text":"我關心的事情是他什麼時候輸入的?最後一批到什麼時候?12月4號那不對啊!12月不是百分之百除批抽驗怎麼還進得來?"},{"start":16064.316,"end":16078.187,"text":"12月11才開始辦所以剛好在他逐批抽驗以前陸陸續續就進來了嘛是嗎部長你可以承諾我一件事這種跟食安攸關的事情我們基本上面的資訊透明把它做好可以嗎"},{"start":16079.686,"end":16103.793,"text":"當然是可以可以嗎 什麼時候輸入的請你們清楚的公告因為我們其實很關心的是什麼在關心的是在查核的時候不僅僅是我們的查核人員很辛苦我們也很關心這是不是一個不孝廠商我為什麼說我們也很關心這是不是一個不孝廠商來下一頁去年你們說你們5月開始嗎"},{"start":16105.171,"end":16119.028,"text":"5月開始查高雄市衛生局抽驗全數合格我看一下那合格的名單下一頁我赫然發現啊這個金站啊加廣啊去年5月抽驗全數合格欸部長這件事情你知道嗎"},{"start":16124.397,"end":16149.671,"text":"可能是剛好沒有抽到啦對啊 這個問題就來了嘛 好他去年五院抽全部都合格他是不是心存僥倖覺得說 哇 厚嘎仔我抽全部都合格結果被抽全部都合格了以後繼續進 繼續進 繼續進進到你12月主批查驗為止他不斷的在進這個有讀蘇丹紅的辣椒粉"},{"start":16151.414,"end":16180.317,"text":"部長你的觀察呢這當然齁就是找出這一個查驗的抽批的漏洞齁那廠商好來我現在的問題就來了齁你們2023年5月要加強抽驗以前你們為什麼要大剌剌的跟全部的廠商講說我要加強抽驗了是要通知他說欸大家小心喔大家注意喔現在要加強抽驗喔你如果是加廣"},{"start":16181.84,"end":16210.37,"text":"那兩那其實他是兩家公司但是我相信部長很清楚啦住址登記在從一個地方負責人應該是清晰啦實際上就是一家公司啦你們一發公告了以後他馬上收到通知說喔接下來要小心了所以接下來抽煙都抽煙不到嘛等到高雄市衛生局公告全部合格上面還有他們的名字的時候就開始什麼死命拼命的進"},{"start":16212.028,"end":16240.678,"text":"部長我對於他們這個二職的廠商剛剛這樣子行為的描述你認不認同這是有可能是好到目前為止我們對這兩家二職的廠商雖然實質上一家形式上兩家嘛做了什麼處罰這兩家是已經有移送了有發劃嗎目前的話是移送那個地檢署的側班有發劃嗎目前還沒有有勒令停業先業嗎"},{"start":16242.697,"end":16270.776,"text":"食品安全衛生法裡面有的行政法上的效果我相信部長很清楚啦部長行政法的專家阿為什麼不罰阿為什麼不採取強制的行政處分的效果阿就移送嗎這樣可以嗎這兩家公司有什麼特殊的背景嗎應該是沒有嘛這麼可惡只要鼠仙大剌剌的通知他們公告"},{"start":16271.67,"end":16286.396,"text":"然後趕快結果抽驗高雄市衛生局抽驗全部合格然後一公告了以後死命拼命的進等到現在才查驗出來結果還沒有裁罰欸這兩家公司是有什麼背景"},{"start":16287.056,"end":16291.659,"text":"我剛已經把他二指的行為描述的很清楚了嘛事情風波都已經到現在結果有裁罰只有新北市欸"},{"start":16308.928,"end":16333.909,"text":"阿高雄那兩家就放他過?這樣對嗎?不會放他過啦對嘛 但是到目前我質詢為止還沒有對他怎麼樣嘛所以我們會督促地方政府來做採取啦OK 我們希望齁 盡快針對資訊公開的部分該處理的部分衛福部趕快印起來讓全國消費大眾看到我們衛福部保護食安的決心這樣好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":16337.981,"end":16344.425,"text":"好 我們謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢接下來我們請楊瓊英委員進行質詢謝謝主席 本席想邀請部長好來我們請部長委員好"},{"start":16367.48,"end":16380.939,"text":"蘇丹紅的毒辣椒粉風暴持續在增加我們看到從去年的5月到9月到12月本市長首先請問我們部裡頭的作為是什麼"},{"start":16382.264,"end":16384.565,"text":"部長你談到這個本期說去年五月、九月、十二月"},{"start":16403.444,"end":16429.944,"text":"一直持續在擴大好像沒中央的事我們看到5月份的時候你公布了有4批有問題的檢驗出來所以你從20%提來50%去年9月份哇又趕快又又是擴大依舊所以你還是維持在50%你一直到了12月才改為100%逐批來檢驗"},{"start":16434.126,"end":16451.956,"text":"請教有多少都已經流到市面上?吃了身體會怎麼樣?我必須要說明一下這個4P有檢驗出來的時候我們就把它提升到50%就如同你這邊講但是在後來的話在提高的部分的話其實是"},{"start":16455.318,"end":16470.55,"text":"因為食藥署在事件發生的時候他告訴大家說呼籲業主你要自行去送驗那我們中央在做什麼沒有沒有"},{"start":16471.03,"end":16491.126,"text":"那我們中央在做什麼自行送宴是另外一件事自行送宴本來就要自行送宴啊還要你政府去呼籲嗎你政府發現這麼嚴肅的議題已經一直在擴大那你應該要有所作為啊是所以我們就是會會同地方政府來加強"},{"start":16493.528,"end":16510.121,"text":"署長你又說我要會同地方政府那如果是如此你政府你中央政府兩手一攤把所有的責任都推給地方政府推給業者那你有符合食安的五環精神嗎已經一直在擴大你食藥署還不拉緊腳步"},{"start":16511.055,"end":16525.964,"text":"因為在國內的後市場的一個抽檢的話是由這一個地方政府跟中央合作的所以這次大家一起來...部長你就說就重點了啦就講到重點了我們似乎發現現在發現問題的都是民眾去檢舉"},{"start":16530.367,"end":16550.074,"text":"然後呢地方政府去查緝發現了問題顯現出這個問題那這個邏輯我覺得我們的中央政府必須啊打官似乎是失靈囉你必須要去加緊腳步所以我們看到從爆出了這個美豬混沖高價的羊肉對不對"},{"start":16551.499,"end":16566.704,"text":"接下來又驗出了豬肉瘦肉精到現在還不清不楚接下來又有蘇丹紅之亂都是民眾來檢舉地方政府查緝、稽查、驗出那中央的作為在哪裡"},{"start":16568.448,"end":16590.847,"text":"這是本來就有一些分工在邊境的話是我們負責的所以邊境那邊查出來那邊境都有這麼準嗎?都查不到嗎?都要入境之後才會嗎?所以部長你們衛福部耗資的巨資啊你們借鑒這個本行全力支持但是我要看成效啊你們的食品雲"},{"start":16592.208,"end":16617.87,"text":"那食品雲如果我們耗資了這麼多的錢去成立食品雲來間接各部會的資料食品追蹤的系統那還發生了這麼重大的事情一報再報而且擴大報那食品雲的成效到底在哪裡請做說明這部分的話其實是食品雲的話他是在做追蹤追溯的對啊你有沒有預警啊"},{"start":16619.569,"end":16629.837,"text":"預警是另外一個事情就是說我們必須要建立預警的一些條件什麼樣的是屬於高危險這個部分當然我們會持續而且會加強來做"},{"start":16635.281,"end":16658.219,"text":"但是在剛剛講的食品的部分主要是追蹤追溯的系統所以這一次的話也是要把它往下巡線去做追蹤才可以找到第二層的這些廠商然後再進入各個廠商去詢問說他們在消往哪些地方去所以巡線去"},{"start":16660.18,"end":16679.362,"text":"當我們要食品運的時候,我相信不分藍綠白,大家都全力支持,因為食安是絕對要安全,而且要公開透明,你贊同這樣子的論點嗎?那在這樣的情況之下,到目前為止,我們也設立了"},{"start":16680.043,"end":16682.063,"text":"本席要聽的是這個,民眾要看的是這個,請做說明。"},{"start":16706.769,"end":16719.477,"text":"首先是在邊境管制這個部分我想我們會再把它提升過來像這一次蘇丹紅事件就是說從20%、30%、50%到100%這個過程其實是太慢了所以對於一些比較高風險的這種"},{"start":16727.082,"end":16753.2,"text":"這種成分的話那可能就是一查到就馬上100%去做檢查如果檢查的話部長你這樣就對了你從5月、9月、12月從5月發生、9月又發生到12月你才要100%如果你現在說的這樣就對了你必須要立即不一樣的動作所以要把那些所謂的這種高風險的產品把它找出來這部分的話我們未來一定會"},{"start":16753.84,"end":16755.041,"text":"好 我們謝謝楊瓊英委員的質詢"},{"start":16780.205,"end":16784.369,"text":"陳培瑜委員不在王美惠委員不在羅志強委員主席有請部長"},{"start":16810.514,"end":16828.565,"text":"部長想請教您這次沸沸揚揚的蘇丹紅事件在這個行政院的定性當中他是系統性食安問題還是個案他是系統性問題非常好是系統性那這個蘇丹紅事件已經爆發多久了"},{"start":16829.971,"end":16846.338,"text":"其實它是逐漸的演變過來因為一開始我們是查我直接問您在上次2月21號的時候那個我們陳建仁院長在報告食安報告說蘇丹紅事件就發生了嘛"},{"start":16847.697,"end":16873.59,"text":"應該是可以這樣講請問在他的食安報告當中有把蘇丹紅事件放進去嗎是沒有放進去因為那時候事情還沒有理得很清楚我要告訴部長一個重點上次陳建仁院長食安報告有一個很重要的結論就是說這個蔡英文總統任內的食安這個安全維護的工作做得與馬英九要強嘛對不對"},{"start":16876.008,"end":16888.443,"text":"但是我從頭到尾他只有一個客觀的數字叫做系統性食安的一個事件的比較你們舉了馬政府七件那你們自己舉幾件兩件不算蘇丹紅兩件"},{"start":16892.762,"end":16904.553,"text":"那系統性食安問題這是你用來認定什麼是系統性什麼是個案那你在據以來認定說馬政府的食安做得比你們差嘛"},{"start":16905.438,"end":16924.479,"text":"可是整篇陳建仁院長報告我沒有看到其他的論點論述說他做得比較好我舉個例子陳建仁院長跟我一個數字上的一個交鋒質詢我有問他說馬政府時期食品中毒的人數跟蔡英文總統時期哪一個時期比較多"},{"start":16927.506,"end":16937.393,"text":"上次我問過你在旁邊嘛蔡英文比較多嘛對不對然後院長還不相信我的數字要回去查那請問回去查的結果是誰比較多"},{"start":16941.673,"end":16964.152,"text":"因為這個其實是一般來講食中就食物中毒的案件的話我知道啦 院長當場就回答食品中毒不是食安問題嘛你認同這個觀點嗎那很好你又更正院長沒關係我就跟你講至少食品安全的部分嘛政府做得比你好以數字來看啊然後你在食安報告當中一直強調你們檢驗很多嘛對不對"},{"start":16966.539,"end":16979.691,"text":"是吧因為檢驗數非常積極我認同這個檢驗積極代表對食安的重視嘛對不對那你也知道我有問了院長一句話請問馬政府檢驗食品安全的檢驗數高還是蔡英文政府"},{"start":16981.591,"end":16983.633,"text":"實驗室標準的蘇丹紅一公克大概多少錢?實驗室標準的蘇丹紅"},{"start":17011.309,"end":17022.102,"text":"這個我們手上沒有這個資料胸腔科醫師蘇一峰說啦大概就是一公克17萬台幣嘛對不對是蘇丹紅嗎他講蘇丹紅實驗室購買蘇丹紅"},{"start":17027.096,"end":17053.616,"text":"那食安辦要不要說蘇丹紅比黃金跟鑽石還要貴所以不會有拿來使用會不會有這個結論當然不一樣嘛答對了嘛那當初為什麼在西部特羅就會出現這個論點呢我在問您齁我想請教您齁2018公告列管蘇丹紅之後什麼時候首次查到辣椒粉添加蘇丹紅"},{"start":17057.495,"end":17070.024,"text":"蘇丹紅的事件這麼大部長這個基本數字恐怕你要知道2021年9月啦要想請問你事發到現在兩年半食藥署做什麼積極防範結果蘇丹紅越查越多"},{"start":17073.774,"end":17094.906,"text":"這個部分的話其實我也跟委員報告就是說蘇丹紅這個事情的話是在過去111年的時候那在邊境上面並沒有檢出出來啦2022年到2023年143批的辣椒粉有9批不合格那為什麼到2023年12月才開始逐批查驗"},{"start":17096.363,"end":17109.721,"text":"那個不合格其實是有多種的,包括說主要是農藥,農藥不合格是占多數啦再問部長齁,光熊檢、茶豐、高雄酥魚跟製造業者違規產品就達到32739公斤"},{"start":17114.813,"end":17144.198,"text":"可是我看到這個衛福部的報告說是兩萬三千七百五十九公斤那為什麼差了一萬公斤那差一天結果是熊檢就去扣押了所以顯然你們的計算標準跟熊檢也不一樣那我就要跟大家講你到底從這個角度來我們難道不用擔心有多少的蘇丹紅不在你的控管範圍之內冰山一角沒被看到的有沒有"},{"start":17145.158,"end":17173.984,"text":"我們現在就尋現在查的當然有可能我們目前有可能而已喔我跟各位講我沒有苛責食藥署、苛責衛福部食品查驗通常是就是冰山一角理論你知道吧你查到代表查到之前有多少流入市面你開始全面逐批查驗之前有多少流入市面你有沒有估過最後我要跟"},{"start":17174.895,"end":17197.244,"text":"部長說一句話啦食安問題不要牽扯前朝食安問題在蔡英文總統任內就好好的面對不要去用一些很特殊的標準然後去做一些很奇怪的比較現在蘇丹紅事件發生請我們衛福部繃緊神經 捍衛人民的食安好不好我們現在就針對蘇丹紅我們自己謝謝部長感謝您擔起這個責任"},{"start":17201.36,"end":17229.941,"text":"好 我們謝謝羅志強委員的質詢本日會議詢答全部結束委員林德甫所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":17230.894,"end":17233.647,"text":"謝謝部長、各部會首長、也謝謝各位委員、各位工作人員。謝謝"},{"start":17263.712,"end":17263.873,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"15683","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15683","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e471ce9aeb73a155cce1f9dc46489d2413be8d109af184be402bd77700111c70b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-04","start_time":"2024-03-04T08:31:00+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-04T12:49:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":15480,"委員發言時間":"08:31:00 - 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我們立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會我們先請主任秘書報告出席人數"},{"start":1763.087,"end":1787.057,"text":"報告委員會出席委員已足法定人數好我們現在開始開會請我們議事人員宣讀上次會議的議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第1次全體委員會議事錄時間中華民國113年2月9日星期四上午九十一分至九十二十一分地點清仙樓九樓大禮堂出席委員郭國文等14人主席盧偉文明才報告事項一本院秘書長韓為第11屆第1會期本院各委員會"},{"start":1790.959,"end":1816.239,"text":"各委員會召集委員選舉相關事宜。業經本院人事處提報本院第11屆第1會期第一次會議決定遭案通過災案。二、宣讀本會期本會召集委員選舉人名冊。選舉事項。選舉立法院第11屆第1會期本會召集委員二人。一、立法院各委員會召集委員選舉辦法第5條及第8條召集委員之選舉以吳敬明單計法票選之。經在場委員互推,由陳委員譽貞擔任發票員。"},{"start":1817.76,"end":1840.211,"text":"賴委員會員擔任唱票員、王委員紅圍擔任計票員、余委員坤城擔任監票員選舉結果初期委員14人發出票數14票、開出票數14票開票結果為羅委員明財8票、郭委員國文6票由羅委員明財及郭委員國文當選立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會召集委員宣導完畢"},{"start":1842.93,"end":1853.525,"text":"好,我們在場的委員為足法定人數,我們議事錄暫不確定。那我們依照這個,我們先請那個議事人員宣讀今日的這個議程。"},{"start":1857.179,"end":1875.957,"text":"報告事項 邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告．並備質詢。宣布完畢。"},{"start":1879.946,"end":1906.943,"text":"我們在場的委員人數已經打法定人數林委員、嚴委員請就座我們剛已經宣讀完這議事錄吳委員也到場了我們確定一下我們上次的議事錄好不好現場的委員有沒有意見沒有,那我們就通過我們原理介紹在場的這一個委員與官員"},{"start":1911.477,"end":1937.495,"text":"首先我們介紹的是我們資深的委員林德福林委員同樣也是我們財委會資深委員吳秉瑞吳委員然後我們的顏匡衡原委員也到場了接著我們介紹我們金管會的主任委員黃天牧黃主委"},{"start":1940.618,"end":1955.743,"text":"綜合規劃處副處長林希聖林副處長法律事務處林徐處委文徐處長國際業務處賴明賢賴處長資訊服務處林玉泰林處長秘書處張吉副張主任人事處洪久雅洪主任主計處戴美英戴主任"},{"start":1972.113,"end":1993.709,"text":"鄭豐市陳範回程主任、銀行局莊秀元局長、政企局高金平副局長、保險局施瓊華司局長、檢察局張子浩章局長、中央存保公司董事長蘇財源、總經理鄭明慧、"},{"start":1999.388,"end":2024.911,"text":"臺灣證券交易所總經理簡立宗、期貨交易所董事長吳智興、總經理周靖榮、集保公司董事長林秉輝、總經理陳德湘、我們櫃買中心董事長陳永成、以及總經理李愛玲"},{"start":2030.134,"end":2052.32,"text":"我們投資人跟交易人保護中心的董事長張新帝總經理林俊宏我們期貨發展基金會的董事長張傳章總經理張立真我們信用卡處理中心董事長貴先鴻總經理張立真"},{"start":2060.091,"end":2085.836,"text":"林棟良金融聯合徵信中心董事長郭建宗總經理張國明金融研訓院院長黃崇哲另外我們的汽車交通事故補償基金副總經理杜茂泉"},{"start":2089.456,"end":2101.581,"text":"我們地險保險基金的董事長李松濟總經理張嘉琳我們保險安定基金董事長林明寬總經理陳昌正我們保險事務發展中心董事長簡仲明總經理葉爾康"},{"start":2117.635,"end":2130.581,"text":"金融消費評議中心董事長杜怡靜總經理羅俊偉以上官員介紹完畢今日排定的議程是金管會的業務報告先請金管會主委進行業務報告"},{"start":2147.278,"end":2148.326,"text":"剛剛還沒有,待會再宣布就好。"},{"start":2150.195,"end":2178.66,"text":"主席和各位委員今天大院第11屆第1會期貴人會第2次全體委員會議曾貴人會邀請提出報告以下僅就國內金融概況近期重點工作及未來推動重點提出報告敬請各位委員指教我先跟各位委員報告因為這是本屆立委第一次在財委會開會所以金管會議準備了一個相對內容比較"},{"start":2179.48,"end":2184.003,"text":"在國內金融概況方面,去年金融三頁合計於7036億元,較前年增加2240億元,所以獲利算是穩健。"},{"start":2200.877,"end":2209.393,"text":"整體中介工人運作良好、資產品質跟欣賞能力都超出要關的標準。"},{"start":2212.1,"end":2232.532,"text":"證券市場去年整個不論市值、成交值跟價各方面都表現相對穩健保險業基本上仍然整個在清償能力跟相關保費收入方面仍是相當穩健,所以仍具前景"},{"start":2234.195,"end":2262.774,"text":"那在近期重點工作方面我想個人也了解各位對國人這個金融詐騙這個所謂金管會的相關作為非常關切所以我們今天用了差不多十頁左右的篇幅先把我們過去這一年的工作的重點跟未來可能在各位委員指導之下要努力的方向做了一個說明但是我想因為時間有限我就挑重點來報告"},{"start":2264.955,"end":2292.283,"text":"第1個在第4月我想在去年這一年我們整個在臨櫃關懷上不論攔截的件數跟金額都較前年有增加相當多的比例所以這兩年去年跟前已經攔阻超過100億元的整個可能的詐款那另外我們對於網路銀行約定轉帳的風險的控管也從約定轉帳的審核期間為了要"},{"start":2293.859,"end":2315.394,"text":"防度將來可能的詐騙也從過去申辦日後次一日生效改為次兩日生效這是在個別金融機構部分那麼在跨機構的防制詐欺部分我們在去年5月26號銀行公會修正了聯防機制的程序強化金融機構之間的聯防"},{"start":2317.421,"end":2321.846,"text":"對於可疑的約定轉帳所採取的作為,我們在去年合訂了財經公司的約定轉帳匯名單通報平台作業規劃,"},{"start":2335.421,"end":2356.28,"text":"預計在今年第一季就可以上線這個對於民眾如果透過轉出行轉到轉入行轉入行的帳號如果其實是在通報上是有問題的話就可以及時採取阻止匯款的這個作為那這個平台有事前事中事後的這個機制這個對未來"},{"start":2359.242,"end":2384.608,"text":"協助在金流上打詐相信會有一定成效的這個功效另外在跨部會跟公司部門合作防詐方面在第6頁我們督導金融機構配合警政署建立了金融資料調閱及聯防通報的電子化平台大部分的金融機構都已加入我們也跟內政部警政署推動了一色詐欺境內外金融帳戶的預警機制"},{"start":2387.889,"end":2412.681,"text":"配合數位部的第三方支付業者使用虛擬帳號服務的管控我們也請銀行配合數位部所定的能量登錄機制對於沒有完成能量登錄者不受理期開戶這是我們跨部會另外一個合作的機制下面一項也非常的重要就是我們配合法務部典定的《洗房法》15條之外第6項帳號"},{"start":2415.002,"end":2423.306,"text":"暫停限制功能或禁予關閉管理的辦法,我們是可以督促金融機構依照規定執行告誡處分,對這種告誡處分者的金融帳戶交易功能給他限制管控,來防度人頭帳戶。"},{"start":2437.028,"end":2462.371,"text":"另外,我們也主動收報違規或詐欺的廣告,從去年4月10日起到今年的3月1日止,總共累計收報了28,000件,這些都依照《投信投顧法》70條之一,已請刑事局依法通知網路平台業者處置。另外,我們也跟行政院打造辦公室跟警政事務處建立聯繫的管道,"},{"start":2464.304,"end":2481.992,"text":"對於這個投資型廣告將來移送之後相關的財發基準跟實施要點有所討論。那另外在今年1月15號我們邀請Google跟Meta兩家網路平台業者討論廣告審查的進進方向。那麼在今年6月底之前就會配合實施實名制。"},{"start":2483.288,"end":2496.805,"text":"在宣導方面﹐不論全國的反詐宣導、走入校園、拍攝防詐微電影、本會建置金融防詐專區或是配合刑事局長化詐騙宣導以及引用多種語言防範詐騙廣告"},{"start":2499.97,"end":2527.671,"text":"還有強化電子支付賬戶的管理這些都是最近這段時間我們努力的方向尤其在強化電子支付賬戶的管理部分我們增加了驗證使用者開立存款賬戶信用卡源流手機號碼的機制那這個機制推動下來之後去年12月的警示的這個賬戶的案件數早前年12月已經下降了九成表示是有具體的功效"},{"start":2528.712,"end":2539.791,"text":"另外,我們會強化行動裝置感應支付防範倒刷。另外,我們也積極面鼓勵行員積極防詐。今年5月份也請院長親自頒發有表現機優的行員。"},{"start":2543.599,"end":2564.062,"text":"這是在防度詐騙方面金管會所做的努力那另外就是明年我們會進入超高齡社會那金管會會高齡者權益跟民眾金融素養方面也包括了對於高齡客戶的臨櫃關懷包括商業不動產逆向抵押貸款小額中老維新保險退休準備平台"},{"start":2565.799,"end":2587.244,"text":"以及我們推動金融知識普及計畫等等。第三個在於包容的金融環境方面我們擴大微型保險還有我們對於年輕人喜歡的領股我們也縮短盤中領股行情介入的時間。訂定逝世者金融服務指引、精進金融業友善金融服務措施以及持續與身心障礙團體強化溝通。"},{"start":2590.27,"end":2610.276,"text":"在17月,提升金融韌性方面,我們繼續在銀行面推動Bussell 3的改革規範,必至明年1月1日開始正式實施最後一階段的改革措施。我們也會繼續在考量國情和循序漸進的基礎之下,循序推動2026年推動財報準則、17日公報和國際期待清償能力制度,"},{"start":2618.11,"end":2630.296,"text":"我們也會強化保險業務員招攬、查核、管理。在19頁永續金融發展方面,我們辦理了第一次的永續金融評鑑。我們也會繼續強化期貨變遷風險管理和永續資訊的揭露。"},{"start":2635.383,"end":2653.451,"text":"最重要的是我們進一步擴大了ESG資料庫的查詢範圍我們請廉政中心建置了企業ESG資料平臺去年9月份起金融業辦理授信的時候就要填報我們也請廉政中心建置了金融業氣候實體風險資訊整合平臺在今年1月31號上線"},{"start":2659.13,"end":2677.92,"text":"我們也建立了在今晚會議建立的永續金融的網站在今年1月10號上線讓各界能夠參考我們也感謝購買中心建置了綠色證券的資訊平台整合了國內外綠色相關的標章資訊等等供各界參考這個在2月29號上線"},{"start":2680.287,"end":2708.422,"text":"另外在有更苛責性的銀行行為方面我們建立了22頁銀行業建立責任地圖制度這是仿照英國的這個相關的責任地圖在明年1月1號實行希望銀行更能夠強化各部門的苛責更強化他的公司治理在滿足各方位的金融需求部分我們繼續推動高資產客戶財富管理業務員工持股信託還有各股期貨納入業盤交易商品等等"},{"start":2709.434,"end":2720.856,"text":"在24月,撥劃數位金融新局面方面,除了雲端委外之外,還有我們會發布數位身份驗證的指引,以及AI的核心原則跟相關推動政策。"},{"start":2721.957,"end":2748.325,"text":"那尤其在第25頁有關管理虛擬資產平台及交易業務的指導原則方面我們在去年9月26號發布了指導原則另外我們在去年11月檢察局就已經針對幾家主要的平台業者進行了金融檢查那這個規定除了是依照洗房法之外我們也除了洗房法是否有遵循之外我們也同時了解"},{"start":2749.165,"end":2769.397,"text":"這些平臺業者有沒有遵循我們去年9月26號所發布的這些原則所以監管會是做實際的去做監理那另外我們今年年初也委託相關的學術單位對未來是不是要訂定虛擬資產管理的專法做專案的研究原則上今年9月份就會有具體的結果"},{"start":2772.986,"end":2799.204,"text":"另外我們強化了金融業跟非金融業的合作保險局在去年10月4號修正了電子商務注意事項跟異業合作推廣保險注意事項目前有一家透過他的這個通訊業者跟他的產險業者去做所謂場景金融的合作這也是一個新的生態的調整一個擴大希望能夠擴展到其他的業別"},{"start":2801.141,"end":2808.75,"text":"在第26頁部分在購足安全自通防護網方面我們強化金融機構資安長的這個職務並且繼續強化金融資安聯防的功能一起參與國際資安的組織"},{"start":2817.36,"end":2831.187,"text":"28月,我們會繼續不斷地強化辦理金融資安攻防演練的評比活動,以及提升上述為公司的資安防護能量,並且要求及時揭露有關資安的重大訊息。"},{"start":2832.677,"end":2853.026,"text":"二十九頁部分我們在過去這三年中我們已經檢討下降了八千五百則法例那麼減輕業者法尊負擔健全進入法治環境對會計事務所也有差異化的管理對上稅公司董事酬金允許諮詢部分都有相關揭露更強化的規定"},{"start":2856.331,"end":2878.777,"text":"在未來推動重點方面33頁我們會繼續強化防詐與交易的安全尤其是在強化信用卡網路交易安全性部分我們會督導銀行公會將身份驗證的一次性密碼OTP納入防範信用卡網路盜刷懶人包電子書並強化特約商店行動裝置應用程式綁定信用卡的身份驗證機制"},{"start":2880.397,"end":2906.128,"text":"也會請銀行公會轉資信用卡發卡機構加強宣導針對經OTP驗證的交易強化信用卡交易授權監控的風險管理以及將外幣的OTP驗證簡訊、消費金額的幣別英文代碼改為中文顯示也會透過防詐的金融科技加強繼續這方面的努力也鼓勵金融機構運用科技防詐"},{"start":2907.649,"end":2926.834,"text":"在營造友善高齡金融環境部分繼續精進公平待客機制包括提供友善的金融服務還有改善高齡者數位落差問題規劃多項課程來協助高齡者去適應金融數位化的環境"},{"start":2929.386,"end":2956.671,"text":"我們也會繼續透過上市會公司的公司治理評鑑接入指引強化推動高齡化的政策並且透過金融檢查來強化各金融機構重視高齡者跟身心障礙者的權益在精進產品服務跟普惠金融方面我們電子支付跨機構共用平台提供跨境購物的功能將陸續推出也會研議提高國人人壽保險、身故保障的門檻"},{"start":2959.406,"end":2964.673,"text":"也會完善身心障礙者經驗統計的資料跟完善分紅保險商品的管理機制"},{"start":2965.88,"end":2987.909,"text":"在39月,健全經營環境和經營韌性方面會開放本國銀行用《信用風險內部平等法》來祭提資本這個比標準法對相關業者如果經過審核通過是相對有利的在今年6月底之前首批就會開始申請也會開放保險業透過特殊目的公司在國外來發債另外在"},{"start":2994.716,"end":3010.863,"text":"四十一頁永續發展跟公司治理方面我們會精簡公開發行公司年報揭露的事項鼓勵我們的金融業對於中小企業六大核心戰略產業公共建設跟長照事業進行投融資也會擴大永續債券商品的範疇"},{"start":3012.684,"end":3031.958,"text":"我們在前年已經公布了第一批的永續經濟活動的參考指引有四類的產業,我們現在正委外做另外六類產業的,包括製造業、廢棄物清理業、資源回收業等等,評估這六類經濟活動對於環境的貢獻以及相關共金融業可以做實質投融資的一個參考。"},{"start":3033.53,"end":3049.553,"text":"我們對外界關心的委外的票率問題今年6月底之前我們會訂定一個金融機構防票率注意事項也做一個委外的研究瞭解國際間對於相關票率部分在金融方面能夠做的一些相關的監理措施"},{"start":3052.028,"end":3067.306,"text":"43頁,我們會在今年希望優先推動修正投信投估法推動基金架構的不動產投資信託也會擴大資本市場規模優化我們的投資環境目前也研議放寬銀行申請續辦高資產業務的申請程序"},{"start":3071.072,"end":3093.513,"text":"也會研議開放主動型跟多資產的ETF,擴大證券商辦理高階財富管理的業務。同時,在於提升證券商受信業務範圍部分,我們也在研究接受員工及員股東身份認購的股票為擔保,向證券商申請認股借貸的資金融通。"},{"start":3094.673,"end":3116.651,"text":"那在開創數位金融方面除了繼續開放銀行第三階段以及發布AI指引之外我們也會推動金融機構FIDO的驗證轉接中心以及跨市場資料的共享資料治理我們以前已經有了金融機構之間的現在是金融機構跟非金融機構之間的跨市場另外我們也建立了金融科技法規調適平台"},{"start":3118.342,"end":3138.678,"text":"每一季逐步檢視各界對於金融科技法規上的問題隨時去做一些法規的調適在資安跟專業智能部分會繼續強化資安人才的技能、辦理資安的演練以及重大資安事件的應變情境演練尤其是這兩年我們特別要重視導入"},{"start":3140.339,"end":3149.526,"text":"零信任的架構尤其是嚴定雲端監控的組織基準對於上市公司自然維護也會特別加以重視"},{"start":3151.264,"end":3176.105,"text":"最後,在民眾權益和保護機制方面我們也希望今年能夠修《證券投資人期貨人交易保護法》另外,我們也配合行政院的接避保護措施對於11家在法院登記超過1億元以上財產的財團法人來落實執行強化住宅低震保險的危險分散機制等等最後,我想金融市場瞬息萬變"},{"start":3177.786,"end":3191.996,"text":"金融機構的經營者跟建立者都面對一個環境非常的複雜金管會會在金融穩定的前提之下持續努力促進金融商品服務創新多元發展來提升金融產業的競爭力那我想以上敬請各位委員支持謝謝"},{"start":3193.097,"end":3194.398,"text":"現在依照這個登記的順序先請登記第一位的林德福委員質詢"},{"start":3230.083,"end":3233.014,"text":"謝謝主席請軍管會黃主委有請黃主委"},{"start":3242.487,"end":3269.912,"text":"主委你好主委我請教因為臺股大盤農曆年啊年後創歷史的新高那突破一萬九千點的大關那面對兩萬點的門檻可說是近在咫尺那對於2024年的臺股你說展現韌性這個穩健前行八個字"},{"start":3271.328,"end":3276.68,"text":"那2024年能適用並營用水滸傳中的"},{"start":3278.058,"end":3301.041,"text":"誰無暴風淨雨時首得雲開見月明表示任性對臺灣的重要性那我請問主委臺股大盤創歷史新高是不是代表進入雲開明月又或者是臺股前行還有可能遇到暴風淨雨呢?"},{"start":3303.341,"end":3330.52,"text":"我想跟委員報告其實這幾年我們整個的資本市場也是要面對國際政經多變的情況所以雖然我們的基本面尤其是去年AI相關產業跟國際的發展帶來台股的相關的動能不過今年我想這個AI產業的基本面應該也是大家看好的不過國際間其實今年對於地緣政治美國的這個調整利息的利率的時間"},{"start":3331.741,"end":3351.595,"text":"那至於通膨這些還有比方中美貿易之間的一些問題還是會有一些變數所以我們還是要謹慎以對那個主委啊假使臺股仍然有風險以主委的專業那請問你認為臺股近期是不是還存在黑天鵝、灰犀牛或綠天鵝這些風險的威脅"},{"start":3356.194,"end":3381.811,"text":"黑天鵝是我們都沒辦法預估的但是灰犀牛是我們知道的我們要好好去預防但綠天鵝部分我覺得我們在永續方面大家包括上市會公司都已經規劃好作業我個人覺得其實基本上我相對來講還是覺得相對是覺得很穩健的這樣齁主委臺股去年齁創下多項的新紀錄全年吶整個帳戶高達26.8%"},{"start":3385.41,"end":3392.174,"text":"那成績在全球僅次於日本那你說這是在美國升息減緩通膨這個"},{"start":3395.606,"end":3418.005,"text":"受管理下加上AI股帶動相關的這些產業的表現以及整個國內產業基本面這些因素所得到的一些成績那請問主委臺股這樣亮眼的成績是不是已經充分的反映大多數股票在股價上"},{"start":3423.047,"end":3424.168,"text":"臺股表現反映基本面"},{"start":3452.846,"end":3472.112,"text":"主委還是只有特定族群甚至於是少數股票受惠你認為臺股大盤去年近三成的漲幅是不是對大多數的股民是受惠一定能夠賺到錢呢?依您的看法"},{"start":3472.792,"end":3498.183,"text":"您問的問題是非常專業的問題其實大家當然都知道半導體電子股其實在帶動股票上漲上其實是有一定的功能了但是我想我們也希望其他產業的類股包括綠能、生技、數位這些都能夠創新的這些股票都能夠也得到投資人的青睞了讓大家都能夠從台股的表現中能夠獲益"},{"start":3499.793,"end":3516.346,"text":"主委去年11月中旬你說從國發會景氣的燈號以及國際貨幣基金整個調升這個臺灣明年經濟成長率一估一估值兩大面向來看臺灣經濟成長"},{"start":3519.52,"end":3527.923,"text":"金管會預估2024年台股日均量約有3000億元。今年過了已經兩個月,請問你認為目前整個臺灣經濟發展的狀況以及台股成交量是不是都在金管會的預估範圍裡面?"},{"start":3543.649,"end":3558.29,"text":"我的印象中到今年上禮拜五為止其實臺股的交易量應該比去年同期其實是有提高一些有比去年同期要提高"},{"start":3559.212,"end":3583.002,"text":"所以說都在你的預估範圍內不是我的預估我想應該是整個基本面的反應大家對臺股的信心主委據了解臺灣ETF在1月整個規模已經破4兆元一年內增加了1.5兆元那請問ETF是不是目前臺股量能的主力是不是"},{"start":3584.704,"end":3586.626,"text":"ETF的成長對台股穩健前行,你認為會不會有什麼影響?"},{"start":3602.591,"end":3618.852,"text":"因為它是一個追蹤指數的被動型的投資我覺得基本上應該算是穩健的一個力量但是很重要的就是這些商品這個相關的資訊跟風險有沒有充分的讓投資人知道"},{"start":3619.853,"end":3621.434,"text":"主委,據金管會統計,2024年1月底,ETF市場規模已達4兆元。"},{"start":3638.803,"end":3652.501,"text":"一百七十九億四兆多佔整體境內基金規模六兆九千七百四十五億元佔比佔了百分之五十七點六一"},{"start":3653.763,"end":3670.062,"text":"那比去年同期ETF市場的規模增長的幅度達到62.48%那我請問主委到底台股中的ETF規模成長快速到底是正常的現象還是異常的現象呢?"},{"start":3671.502,"end":3687.07,"text":"我們覺得這是投資人就是民眾他希望選擇一個相對穩健又不需要花太多時間去分析能夠有固定一些預期收益的商品那可能ETF滿足了這些條件但儘管如此我們覺得從整個資產管理的"},{"start":3688.106,"end":3691.169,"text":"據本席了解,ETF本質是基金的商品,卻能夠在證券市場交易所中進行交易,以及以股票形態來保持高度的買賣彈性。"},{"start":3716.311,"end":3730.933,"text":"對於上班忙碌而且資金較小而且不願意花時間在投資上的人來說ETF是非常適合這個資本不大散戶的投資工具處委金管會上個禮拜"},{"start":3732.779,"end":3750.798,"text":"禮拜四宣布對ETF提出三大面向六大的監理措施那請問這些措施提出之後你認為會不會影響民眾對ETF購買的意願會不會我覺得這些措施其實都是強化投資人保護事實上這個市場能夠發展的好"},{"start":3753.4,"end":3772.325,"text":"讓投資人保護能夠做得更透所以說金管會是基於說對這些投資人保護的一個考量才決定提出這些監理的措施是跟委員報告其實這也是國際監理機構對於ATF的一個發展的監理的趨勢跟方向那我請問你"},{"start":3773.425,"end":3794.37,"text":"金管會認為ETF對臺股成交量可能會不會有一些負面的影響所以才出手?應該不是考慮負面而是因為既然投資人那麼重視這樣一個商品我們覺得從投資人保護角度我們也要更重視這個商品有哪些可能在銷售面或是商品面有什麼需要再去管理的地方"},{"start":3794.79,"end":3807.428,"text":"因為他會責定一些股而且AI裡面占多數你像一般的傳產股他們不會去責定尤其你像營建股他會嗎應該不會吧對不對主委"},{"start":3810.092,"end":3836.081,"text":"ETF成為臺股主力是事實國人搶進臺股ETF尤其是高股息類型的ETF也是力之所趨沒有什麼懸念只是ETF規模持續的變大對於屬於ETF成分股的這些股票或許相對有利但是對於不是ETF成分的這些股票恐怕"},{"start":3836.861,"end":3860.476,"text":"就是可能出現一些排擠的效應會不會我想這也是我們希望市場均衡發展的一個考量之一了所以說那個主委金管會有沒有統計過ETF成分股和非ETF成分股在台股成交量上的近兩年的占比變化有沒有你們有沒有統計過這部分應該交易所應該有我們會後了解一下"},{"start":3861.517,"end":3862.238,"text":"這部分我們會後做一個分析提問給委員參考"},{"start":3885.191,"end":3889.173,"text":"其他的部分我另外因為時間到了我下次再問謝謝謝謝委員指導謝謝林德福委員的質詢接著我們請吳秉瑞委員質詢主席麻煩請金管會黃主委有請黃主委"},{"start":3915.014,"end":3919.416,"text":"虛擬貨幣去年發生非常多的風險,也發生非常多的事件。"},{"start":3937.199,"end":3961.4,"text":"今晚會被政府指定為是這個虛擬貨幣的這個管理的機關主管機關那主委你對於這個虛擬貨幣那現在這個起伏這麼大那風險當然有人在冒著風險高風險想要獲得高報酬但是同時他的風險大也代表說他虧本的機會也很大這個你有什麼樣子的看法"},{"start":3962.783,"end":3991.315,"text":"謝謝委員關心這樣一個重要的問題其實我先說其實我們對虛擬資產國際間監理機關的看法都是覺得它有相當的風險、投機性但是因為投資人青睞那有很大量的投資因為它有預期很高的漲幅所以各國監理機關現在的態度都是要強化這方面的監理那我覺得虛擬資產最重要讓大家要注意就是它沒有內在價值"},{"start":3992.295,"end":3992.916,"text":"因為他沒有實質的資產是大家投資者信心的堆疊"},{"start":4015.579,"end":4033.578,"text":"這個我聽起來很類比一個這個就是泡沫我們的金融市場如果大家都持正面看法那就是會去堆疊但哪一天氣球破的時候後果很嚴重最近的這個EDF這一波最大的漲幅的原因是因為美國"},{"start":4035.967,"end":4054.523,"text":"這個比特幣的漲幅的原因是不是因為美國把他捏納入可以發行ETF可以做ETF的買賣其實因為美國證券會也是因為法院裁決他原來禁止法院裁決說你這個禁止是不對的所以才讓他現貨的ETF才上市但是市場都覺得說那這樣既然得到監理機關的肯認"},{"start":4055.203,"end":4076.689,"text":"所以就一窩蜂進去另外一個原因應該是今年4月份的比特幣的機制4月份有一個自動減半的機制讓他覺得供應量可能變少了所以覺得需求就開始往上竄升那你我剛剛也許我剛剛講那個問題就是大家一窩蜂如果大家都一窩蜂進去的時候他當然就"},{"start":4077.816,"end":4104.537,"text":"政府就很大但是有一天如果出現了不利的消息或是大家失去信心他又會大量的崩跌所以其實這個唯一比對比為例已經有好幾波很大的跌幅跟很大的漲幅那這個我在這邊一再強調跟你已經報告過很多次我觀察臺灣投資民眾的屬性他賺錢不會感謝政府但是如果大家賠錢大家就怪政府"},{"start":4105.37,"end":4128.002,"text":"以前沒有管理機關沒有指定管理機關還可以講說沒有機關管理現在已經指定金管會有管理機關了所以如果有一些人去投資比特幣他自己賠錢累積很多人之後他有可能還去你的辦公室門口要跟你圍你要跟你抗議出現這樣的狀況要怎麼辦呢"},{"start":4129.571,"end":4154.814,"text":"委員我跟您報告謝謝您給我這個機會說明其實我們也希望因為現在一個網路世界我們希望投資人真的覺得他願意他願意承擔這個風險願意投資應該是到像金管會有申報洗錢防治聲明的這20幾家的平台業者去做投資那現在有很多境外的幣商或是沒有核准過的個人幣商最好都不要去透過那些平台去投資"},{"start":4155.615,"end":4156.978,"text":"因為沒有實質資產所以這個是虛擬的世界相對的還有實質資產現在要這個"},{"start":4164.484,"end":4190.57,"text":"這個代幣化這個所謂的RWA這樣子的一個機制美國也一邊在進行這個部分你怎麼講如果我們有提供更多的投資管道那在實質資產這個有東西有憑藉的你也把它代幣化也是一樣可以像這樣子的虛擬的這樣的交易的時候是不是可以產生替代的效果不要讓那些人想要賺錢都去投在這個非常高風險的這個虛擬的這個資產"},{"start":4193.451,"end":4217.68,"text":"實質的資產這一邊是不是要受到像應當有的重視跟應當有的強化呢?我跟委員報告其實您垂尋到一個非常我們正在思考的一個重要的政策其實大家對虛幣、虛擬資產除了它投資上可能帶來的這種漲幅之外還有一個兩法就是它跟區塊鏈未來發展的連結可是我們觀察國際的趨勢像美國跟亞洲、新加坡"},{"start":4218.34,"end":4244.033,"text":"其實重點應該是在您剛所提到RWA其中有關有實質經濟價值的金融資產的代幣化透過區塊鏈把它數位代幣化這個是各國監理機關金融監理機關目前在在注意的這個問題那其實金管會已經從半年前就開始重視這個金融資產的代幣化這個問題那這個跟虛幣的管理是不同的邏輯虛幣是從"},{"start":4246.474,"end":4267.615,"text":"投資人保護可是實質資產代幣化是從區塊鏈的發展去處理那事實上今年年初記者會我們也在資料中有特別記載我們在今年下半年就會對於我們的基金的代幣化就是Tokenization去做一些研究那現在政體局跟相關的工會已經在做研究了"},{"start":4269.017,"end":4282.538,"text":"這個從你管理的角度以及這個屬性當然是這樣來講沒有錯但是投資者他有的閒錢他要投資他是有好幾種選擇嘛如果你在這個實質資產代幣化這一邊做的也可以很好"},{"start":4283.647,"end":4283.847,"text":"主席"},{"start":4302.851,"end":4321.611,"text":"其實這個概念之前在不動產的證券化就體現了這樣的概念現在是把更多的東西可以包裝可以讓它代幣化讓它等於是可以證券化這樣子的觀念那重點是你願意開放哪一些資產可以讓它來代幣化呢我跟您報告"},{"start":4322.392,"end":4348.889,"text":"有關金融資產的代幣化部分其實包括美國跟亞洲這些國家重要國家其實都還在試驗性質因為它有可能產生一些金融穩定的顧慮但是我覺得我們會朝這條方向去處理去研究為什麼?它可以把虛實整合把有實質經濟跟實質經濟連結的這些資產把它透過去中心化金融連結變成數位代幣那可以"},{"start":4350.23,"end":4368.08,"text":"分割很細,容易交易,跨域可以隨時清算,這些都是它的好處,可是這些在美國、新加坡等國,他們還是在試驗性質,所以我們會密切關注他們推動的情況,在建立架構跟商品面,希望將來能夠有機會推出這些商品。"},{"start":4368.76,"end":4394.282,"text":"那現在你們提出的法案裡面對於這個不動產證券化基本上這是這一屆你們打算要推的這個方案希望能夠是要立法院能夠支持當然行政院送到立法院來我們看看那個內容如果合理支持讓有比較大的空間對國人來講要投資是好處我的意思是說你是不是在這個做的時候"},{"start":4395.683,"end":4415.852,"text":"考慮因為這工作實在是很複雜我知道你要第一個交易的時間隨時可以交易然後怎麼樣細分這東西都很複雜這個還要發展很久可是我個人比較站在我個人角度我講我的想法給你聽如果你這個實質資產的這個代幣化的交易可以很活絡的話我們年輕人"},{"start":4416.932,"end":4443.572,"text":"或是我們的國人他有一筆不太大的資金或是說他想投資他可以走到這個領域裡面來而不用現在找不到投資的管道然後每天晚上看這個虛擬貨幣然後去買比特幣去什麼樣的貨幣結果就冒了一個大風險其實萬變不離其中一句名言風險之所在才是利益之所在想要得到大利益的人他必須要冒高風險"},{"start":4444.853,"end":4472.693,"text":"但是我現在是怕大家不感受而已所以你就是必須要把這個東西弄得更清楚同時在實質市場這邊提供出來讓大家有更多的投資管道才不會說都沒有投資管道我也不想買股票我就去買這個虛擬貨幣我比較擔心的是我比較希望能夠做的是如果這樣做可以減輕投資虛擬貨幣一窩蜂這樣的現象是委員跟您報告"},{"start":4473.453,"end":4501.414,"text":"我跟您報告這個RWH是金融資產代幣化其實各國還在試驗階段還沒有真正所謂可以商業化的商品還要一段時間不過我覺得這個方向上是我們要密切注意的所以金管會在這個議題上面會非常重視而且採積及的態度但是我們現階段做的就像我剛剛跟您報告的還是以基金的實質資產代幣化作為一個開頭那還要一些時間去研究但是我們已經開始啟動了"},{"start":4502.815,"end":4521.508,"text":"其實這個某一個角度來講不動產的證券化就是這個就是這個領域的一部分他本身就是這個領域的一部分只是將來這個要把它擴大多大的範圍那你的交易要怎麼樣的規範是這一方面因為像歐美國家他有一些是把藝術品也納進來有一些是把其他的這個"},{"start":4522.429,"end":4534.387,"text":"很高價值的珠寶也納進來等等這個都是可以思考的那希望能夠我是希望有實質的東西有實質的價值你就算投資他將來就算"},{"start":4538.753,"end":4557.82,"text":"這也是我們的想法你這個虛擬世界根本就不存在那實質的價值他的那個全部都是靠大家信心的堆疊等到那個信心泡沫破裂的時候他的下跌可能那個幅度是沒有辦法接受的所以是擔心的是這個了解好謝謝大家請加油謝謝委員謝謝謝謝秉瑞委員的質詢接著我們請賴世保委員質詢"},{"start":4577.574,"end":4582.576,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請黃天牧主委有請黃主委委員長主委你早現在我最近我的付出"},{"start":4595.675,"end":4618.027,"text":"結掉三者的被詐騙的案子我特別提出來就是我看了很難過啊幾乎是他們全一輩子的積蓄這樣被騙光了第三個被騙了三千多萬來我的服務處來了六次"},{"start":4619.414,"end":4638.018,"text":"我該做能做的都做了,能做的都做了,怎麼樣找刑事警察局什麼的、金管會等等的,但是好像到現在為止就一錯莫展了。我就仔細看一下,刑事警察局統計了,去年度整年度被詐騙金額88億,"},{"start":4641.707,"end":4669.053,"text":"詐騙案的前三名第一個假投資佔了六成以上第二個假網拍第三個解除分期付款這個都完全是金管會裡面可以管得到可以幫忙的地方啊比如說這個現在變成是大家透過平台去join"},{"start":4670.421,"end":4690.934,"text":"那些的所謂的投資,教你怎麼賺錢,加line啊,加什麼啦,加名人啊。我知道我像黃主委,名字也被冒名過了,對不對?呃,應該有,應該有。有嘛齁,還有其他人也冒名啊,什麼之類的啊。這個啊,我正在想,"},{"start":4693.027,"end":4716.185,"text":"與其讓讓其他的當事人或者其他的單位行事警察局他們去聽著看你的證交所、你的櫃碼中心人都不少啊你不能叫他們每天聽著看可不可以一樓就處理一樓就處理現在來看的話都是金管會的事情了我那個陳清仁就告訴我"},{"start":4717.806,"end":4743.789,"text":"主委,我替你擋子彈,他偷罵金管會主委,他還不知道你姓什麼,我要不好意思說你姓黃。他就說金管會都沒你做事,六成都是假投資。我們交易所的金總經理跟貴馬的陳董事長要不要上來一下。"},{"start":4745.629,"end":4765.636,"text":"我想在他們上來中間我跟您報告我們其實一直就有在兩個交易所去收報這報告中也寫從去年四三四月到今年已經有兩萬八千件但是這個平台還要大家跨部會去合作像Google跟Meta要用實名制這些都有在努力中請兩位的長官就回到我的問題你以為派專人"},{"start":4772.711,"end":4799.5,"text":"可能不只一個可能不只兩個專人每天盯這些平台有沒有有沒有回答這問題跟委員報告我們交易所這邊有專人在做這個有沒有每天盯有有我們有沒有每天出報告我們持續發現案子就會做移送的這個動作給檢察局給好你們上個月移送多少幾件"},{"start":4801.815,"end":4804.257,"text":"到2月29日為止,我這邊的統計是14000多件。"},{"start":4824.004,"end":4839.232,"text":"一個一萬多、一個一萬多。主委啊,你回答我不好。我支持魯頓喔。輸送這麼多,為什麼都沒辦法查出來?這裡面的名堂啊什麼之類的,為什麼沒有辦法有效阻斷?"},{"start":4840.982,"end":4864.296,"text":"這些,你看我們行政院陳院長,沒有這麼大聲,花了13例,喊打喊殺,打詐,結果詐越打越多,你看到這裡曲線圖,這個是聯運報的曲線圖,你看到,越來越多,越來越多,件數越來越多,沒有效啊,而且看起來你取締的不少啊,所以,"},{"start":4866.912,"end":4892.783,"text":"黃主委因為這個詐騙絕對跟經理有關係絕對跟你的管區有關係你會不會覺得你少做了一件什麼事其實報告委員重點就是因為我們收報之後報到刑事局之後其實重點是叫他下架他是有在24小時之內下架可是下架之後他又透過其他的管檔又再上來所以查完之後他還會再上來所以我們下架不能幹嘛處罰嗎"},{"start":4894.417,"end":4919.122,"text":"沒有,處罰的前提必須他不下架我們才能處罰他下架就不能處罰那這是法律上的規定那另外一個重點就是將來透過平台Google跟Meta用實名制現在用實名制你可以不可以要求因為這個上架的大部分很多是投顧的嘛投顧也是你管的啊其實真正的投顧不會做這些事"},{"start":4919.582,"end":4945.183,"text":"假投顧也可以啊假的假的不管是不是投顧或是就是一個詐欺集團他這個不是真正的投顧你沒辦法現在就是六月底有實名制將來如果你真正在這個平台要上廣告要實名就可以追索你我請問你啊被詐騙的金融大概可以追回來多少"},{"start":4946.929,"end":4973.05,"text":"這個要刑事局這邊才有這個資料我得到的資料是不超過一成耶幾乎都是血本不歸啊那是overall的那88億那最多追回來8億而且不知道什麼時候才追得到這個噴到這樣的案子真的很難過啊真的這個當事人都會想自殺啊三千多萬"},{"start":4975.151,"end":4979.079,"text":"真的那個主委啊您腦筋很好啊這都想一想"},{"start":4980.029,"end":4982.11,"text":"臺股最近漲了一萬到一萬九千多是不是已經正式進入流勢?"},{"start":5007.028,"end":5033.416,"text":"我們不太敢...我們不太適合判斷牛市跟熊市我想臺股有基本面是...牛市什麼判斷?大概一定期間漲...我想我...百分之二十?你現在不只漲百分之二十了喔?如果你一段時間不只漲百分之二十了喔?從一萬七到一萬九就...就差不多二十啦那一萬六、一萬五漲到一萬九就百分之二十了什麼事呢?所以你還不敢講牛市?"},{"start":5034.465,"end":5059.23,"text":"我想國際政經情況多變我們還是要審慎以對基本面很好基本面有基本面我沒有說整體台股的本利比有多少?21.17倍OK嗎?我覺得還算穩健啦美國的那東京市的本利比多少?"},{"start":5060.869,"end":5079.466,"text":"報告委員我沒聽清楚你是美國的Dow Jones的本利比多少這個我要請同仁提供一下多少84.06所以臺灣的本利比不高還對從這個角度他的意思就是還可能會漲"},{"start":5081.282,"end":5109.371,"text":"呃,報告委員,監理機關不太適合對漲跌有太多的…下一步就是這樣說啊!本來你比第一樓要去漲啊!就是這樣啊!對嗎?但是你仔細發現到這個漲幅都是靠AI啦!跟台積電相關的電子族群其他的族群很少啊!就是這個不夠平均的啊!這個其實外界…外界會…會有點擔心說我們資本市場特別股票市場"},{"start":5110.754,"end":5135.903,"text":"扭曲的現象還蠻嚴重的怎麼大家資金都一窝窝的擠到這個電子的一個相關的產業過來有些電子的有些電子本利比都很高耶公司電子本利比都非常高耶而且比高風險當然就高啊報告委員這個是您說的是一個事實可是另外一個事實也是臺股30年的發展我們的"},{"start":5137.838,"end":5156.908,"text":"臺灣證券交易所的市場結構就是半導體電子就這樣一半所以這個跟反映它的產業結構所以你的意思你不敢說或是什麼樣就是本地比臺灣OK還不算高所以它是Juicy所以它值得投資可以吧我現在結論"},{"start":5157.984,"end":5169.345,"text":"我覺得投不投資還是看投資人決定就注意風險但是臺股是有基本面好 最後一題也是很重要的題題目金融營業稅今年底到期"},{"start":5171.035,"end":5198.006,"text":"我們現在是3%現在是5%3%給財政部2%2%是你們到進到金融業特別準備金現在已經將近3500億金管會對於這個法今天底到底這個法要怎麼修有沒有方向我想第一個就是財政部主管的我們要尊重財政部第二個那你態度好問了財政部財政部主管問你欸"},{"start":5199.164,"end":5203.328,"text":"我的任期到5月19號,這應該是下一任主委要回答,會比較合適。"},{"start":5212.708,"end":5235.112,"text":"好歹你要離開之前做一件大事吧!這件不是大事!這個是大事喔!這個是大事喔!沒有!你的態度非常重要!我找了財政部,財政部告訴我金管會的態度非常重要!當然行政院相關政委他的態度嚴重!報告委員,其實我的態度過去在您垂詢的時候"},{"start":5235.672,"end":5246.628,"text":"其他委員隨行書我有報告過現在的我們覺得其實跟國際趨勢來講是不符的希望能夠降低但是原有到準備金的部分希望能夠留著"},{"start":5248.138,"end":5249.098,"text":"謝謝市保委員接著我們請郭國文委員"},{"start":5282.915,"end":5287.498,"text":"謝謝主席有請黃天牧黃主委請主委主委你的任期未必到519吧我們可以好好來討論一下主委最近在休會期間一直有一件新聞事件浮上新聞報導的版面當中特別是星光的這個議題星光人壽的議題"},{"start":5311.834,"end":5334.69,"text":"那新光人壽跟目前為止跟山山美邦的部分是未達標的一個狀態那一個是屬於一種不足那一個是屬於嚴重不足那這種情況底下保險局有要求啊他這一個每半年中了兩個月的時候要更新這個財務狀況李當去年的下半年就應該要報道了不曉得這資料最新的狀況如何"},{"start":5336.771,"end":5347.096,"text":"去年底的財報要到3月底才會會計師簽證查核才會出來我是說他那時候每年度差說這邊有講說字節的部分應該有字節的部分應該有那我們說一下現在狀況如何"},{"start":5354.904,"end":5374.589,"text":"呃這個請新光這兩個應該還是跟現況差不多吧還是差不多請局長說也就一個是那個有關於這個法定標準的RBC的部分新光目前也不足然後山上美崩當然新楚是不足淨紫比的兩家都不足嗎這邊局長提供的資訊是還是跟您右邊的那個都一樣表格都一樣"},{"start":5375.809,"end":5397.076,"text":"如果都未達標的情況底下我想我們保險法146、143條之六的話這個資本不足的措施跟資本減注不足的部分都有相關的作為可是在報章媒體上對於星光的部分最清楚的部分僅就要求他增資嘛因為增資的部分一來一往來來回回好多次嘛最主要是這個部分嘛"},{"start":5397.816,"end":5409.248,"text":"那到目前為止他透過新光金的這個部分要認股這個新光能售70億的部分這個有比較具體的一個進度嗎?"},{"start":5410.492,"end":5429.458,"text":"有,我們在1月22號、23號有發函,2月22號、23號有回函,還有提出一些增資的計畫,我們正在研究中,正在處理中。可是李當這個增資的計畫從112年到114年每年都要增資71,而他這個71是屬於去年應該要有的責任的不是嗎?"},{"start":5429.898,"end":5449.071,"text":"對他去年其實還差15億對還差嘛還未打嘛總共這三年間總共要210億耶那是就原有的經營團隊對保險局金管會的承諾但是跟他今年6月底RBC達到200這中間還有距離的還有距離距離大概多少"},{"start":5449.93,"end":5477.13,"text":"這要看他自己經營的績效吧。我覺得預估啦,以照目前這個時間點,你有沒有算過?可能我不太有這個數字。那你再退一下,再算給本席知道。但至少資本不足的部分,你至少要達到五項之多啦。在媒體的部分,我看到就是只有一項爭持,其他的部分你有沒有進行任何的一個要求跟作為?有啦,保險局跟銀行局都不斷地在跟他們做溝通。所有法令上要求的這些措施,這同時都有進行?"},{"start":5479.296,"end":5495.109,"text":"這個措施是要有這個目前還是在做整個監理上的溝通中還沒有做到依照這個143-6去做相關的規定都還沒有所謂限制資金沒有沒有這個還沒有要看他"},{"start":5496.169,"end":5497.69,"text":"這個應該都有處理是不是請局長報告一下"},{"start":5522.179,"end":5543.529,"text":"根委員報告那個資本顯示物不足我們也有一些措施那山上的部分他們有提出一些財業務改善計畫我看一看喔山上這部分已經快兩年了未達標了對但是因為他提的計畫裡面除了現金增資之外現金增資他大概每一次他都有達到標準那我們出售資產"},{"start":5545.01,"end":5557.646,"text":"出售資產的部分有一些像不動產的部分他們到現在還在賣那另外就是他們有要找策略性投資我不要浪費太多時間就針對這兩個公司的這種因應要求的措施狀況怎麼樣給我一個書面的部分"},{"start":5563.633,"end":5578,"text":"我想對保護來說最關心的部分這家公司的未來怎麼樣是比較關鍵然後星光金當然有提出一個方式就是說有關使利差戶抵責任準備金的部分好像被那個金管會這邊已經公然否決掉了嘛對不對"},{"start":5579.332,"end":5604.169,"text":"報告委員這個其實沒有正當性因為當年是2000年初他是因為低利率環境造成這個保險公司的一些困境所以採用當時的權宜措施護底其實這個錢本來應該是保護的錢所以後來因為這個措施之後這個錢還是應該以保護為前提不是應該就分給這個不是在解決公司的問題所以說這種情況底下這個提案不行這種情況底下"},{"start":5604.949,"end":5621.402,"text":"主委我如果沒有記錯的話之前你對整個這個寬容的措施做了不少星光透過資產這個重分類的部分它就讓它淨值增加了386億那可是呢到了第三季的時候呢它又虧損"},{"start":5623.183,"end":5643.834,"text":"剩下148億然後如果再加上啊他這個隱性的虧損未列舉的這個部分俄羅斯公債的部分再加上他目前未來還有接軌iFIRST17的部分等等幾個要件如果還有在他手頭現在資金210億還沒有達標的情況底下你認為星光人壽現在的這種狀況底下最壞的狀況是如何"},{"start":5653.491,"end":5665.121,"text":"我想我們沒辦法去評估什麼是最壞的,我想我們應該是掌握現在去跟相關的...你一直要求他自救啊,你才能自助啊"},{"start":5667.08,"end":5683.351,"text":"現在的經營團體必須自己提出來相關的能夠改善這個公司的清償能力的方案主管機關才會考量其他的這些措施而不能夠就是禁止要求主管機關先提寬容這個跟其他業者的做法是不一樣的"},{"start":5684.211,"end":5705.756,"text":"所以短期那就是你是要求他就不可能再進行任何寬容措施就是了嗎?先把他對原有經營團隊每年70億以及我們要求他在今年6月的RBC到200這些都要提出可行的計畫這邊達成以後其他再說其他再說吧萬一他都沒有達成的情況底下呢?"},{"start":5706.616,"end":5734.942,"text":"我想我們依法辦理就依法辦理就依照剛剛的要求一個一個加重處理就是了我想也我們會依法辦理但是什麼情況我們不能預測了我看可能你要有最糟的打算了我看這種情況那個不論是舊團隊也好新團隊也好基本上看起來都拿不出新的一個資金的一個來源那另外一個部分主委你剛剛在這個報告事項當中的25頁特別提到有關於虛擬資產的部分"},{"start":5736.042,"end":5748.473,"text":"本席也要就教你這個虛擬資產的部分在9月的部分已經列出所謂的這個指導原則那而且去年9月那今年9月的時候專法的研究會出爐嗎?主委是如果依照這種狀況的話因為整個虛擬資產"},{"start":5752.077,"end":5772.854,"text":"剛剛姑且不論它有沒有內在價值可是它的虛擬資產的管理這種代幣的這個管理以及未來區塊鏈的問題跟你剛剛所說的整個這個實質資產要把它代幣化的部分這部分其實基本上都有雷同也就是說這個管理的這個專法來說的話或許將來也可以套用在其他的這種代幣的可能性上對不對"},{"start":5774.094,"end":5796.909,"text":"我跟委員報告因為這個專法在學術團隊在研究但是我們當初給他的指示只是就現在的虛擬資產的投資人保護方面跟發展上面能夠做什麼去擬專法跟我剛跟您報告的所謂金融資產的RWA的代幣化兩個的那個邏輯是不完全一樣的所以那個部分而且各國都還在試驗階段所以還早"},{"start":5797.85,"end":5815.553,"text":"好 如果是沒有完全一樣部分雷同的部分也可以讓制度有一個延伸性的做法但是短期內你現在用一個所謂的指導原則的部分來處理的話那目前為止依照現階段金管會所動用的都是有關於洗房法裡頭的一個執法的部分來處理"},{"start":5816.394,"end":5834.623,"text":"那如果說以他的整個交易行為不論是保管的行為或者是買賣的行為或者本身的代幣的這個行為都有隱含著銀行法或者期貨交易法等等的這種狀況有沒有可能就既有的法令當中的條款當中來進行來對接的可能性有沒有可能?"},{"start":5835.851,"end":5849.905,"text":"我想跟您報告,就是我剛才有一點剛才沒有報告完,就是其實現在這個虛幣的主要業者其實蠻願意成立工會用自力的方式去處理,所以那些原則是可以透過我們的溝通跟去完成。"},{"start":5851.667,"end":5879.708,"text":"那但是這個您該垂詢的對不起您該問的是沒有工會的部分跟傳統金融部分這部分要很小心因為其實去年3月美國幾個銀行發生問題也都是因為他跟虛幣之間的業務聯繫而產生產生一些民眾的一些聯想所以傳統金融部分跟虛幣部分的連結這部分銀行局也會特別去注意目前是還沒有特別緊密的連結我是說"},{"start":5881.029,"end":5908.622,"text":"以傳統的金融業的部分的一個管理的法令的架構當中有沒有哪些條款可以進行修法然後來適用於整個虛擬的貨幣的管理我意思是這樣子對我跟您報告現在的方向立法方向就是專法不會連結到現有的其他作用法就是跟既有的法令的架構做一個隔離就你就直接朝向專法而不是單條的條文來做修正條文有些理念上建議理念上是可以移植但是法律的獨立性上是專法"},{"start":5909.619,"end":5936.082,"text":"好那最後我們來談談520之後的事情好了那因為呢我們520之後新的總統當選人他有提出六大的一個金融政見雖然520之後的那個黃主委是不是姓黃我不清楚主委姓黃是不清楚但是主委在這段時間的一個看守內閣當中是不是應該有一些責任跟看法將未來的整個當選人的這一個主張在從金管會的職責當中做一些準備"},{"start":5937.179,"end":5948.531,"text":"一個就是投資於公共設施第二個就是資產管理中心普惠金融已經在進行還有永續金融剛剛也有報告看起來好像有幾項還有還沒有的"},{"start":5950.283,"end":5972.884,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會其實在選前跟選後我們對於各黨派的總統候選人的政見都有去研究那選後特別對賴副總統的政見這六項政見都有研究我有交代同仁就相關重要的一些議題先做好研究那將來等新的主委上任之後再加速他的理念就可以推出這些研究的內容什麼時候原末可以出來"},{"start":5974.775,"end":6000.803,"text":"最近都在做比方說像資產管理這些這些這些我們還可以做哪些事情那公共建設資金本來就有在做了那金融科技我覺得都有在做那只是說請同仁更琢磨一下我們還能再做哪些事情我們能不能設定一個時間點把你們提供的建議讓我們知道一下我們當然就是520之前會把能夠做的先排點出來4月底之前不要等到520好4月底之前好謝謝主委謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":6020.925,"end":6041.285,"text":"接著我們請賴會員諮詢。好,謝謝主席。有請主委還有銀行局局長。有請主委以及銀行局局長。是,委員長。是,主委長。我想就針對著今天跟你探討。是。"},{"start":6045.475,"end":6059.127,"text":"就是在2005年就是發生的這個雙卡風暴那主委有沒有印象就是說借錢不用利息結果養出了70萬張的一個卡農我們從1999年"},{"start":6063.551,"end":6086.367,"text":"萬泰銀行發行的這個喬治瑪利的一個現金卡以後因為審核的條件非常的鬆散所以到了2003年的時候我們就發現了就是銀行的現金卡就是發行的銀行就高達27家那這個總卡量竟然達到了250萬張到了2005年的時候國內的卡暴增了到了70萬人到了2007年的時候"},{"start":6091.73,"end":6117.781,"text":"銀行的預放比例將近接近到了5%每個月的打消的待賬金額就高達百億元主委有沒有印象?這個我們都是我們金融監理的一個重要的一個借鑒是是好那再請問主委這個租賃業跟換款的業務是不是歸金融那個金管會來管?"},{"start":6119.943,"end":6144.173,"text":"不是那你認為應不應該由你們來管我們跟金管會組織條例的定位是不一樣的因為租賃業或是放貸業務他是根據民法去處理的或是公司法15條去處理的主委我也相信你一定會跟我講說不是歸你管因為你們現在有很多的一個作為看不出來是歸你們管那我想這個"},{"start":6145.874,"end":6169.486,"text":"民間的那個主任會金管會來管轄這個是肯定的在法律上是正確的可是金管會在7月27號在記者會上面也有講了非常清楚主任業是民間的一個借貸業應該是由消費者保護機構來處理那甚至必須要提高那個監督的一個管理對消費者"},{"start":6169.986,"end":6195.24,"text":"如果你是講提高監督的管理對消費者未必是有利那如果我們從司法院的那個裁判書裡頭去查詢光是去年中租抵合就是債務人的一個申請債務更生案件裡頭就多了比前年多了就是80件他現在是131件顯然這個已經是成為很嚴重的一個社會問題了"},{"start":6199.682,"end":6217.914,"text":"主委你怎麼看這個事情我想不論在社群媒體上或是外界關心或是委員的槌尋上我們當然也注意到這個問題但是我想這個部分其實在相關的法律中都有規定比方說重力啊或者說是非凡的催收或是自洩揭露都有相關的法律可以規定"},{"start":6221.056,"end":6221.937,"text":"主委,您從這張圖看到了什麼樣的問題?"},{"start":6246.414,"end":6251.583,"text":"為什麼一定要由金管會來管?我想這個利息該如何管?"},{"start":6256.01,"end":6274.807,"text":"這個的惡性循環我們從上一張圖我們所看到的就是主任業裡頭他所顯現出來的就是換款的利率期限還有換款的一個資格那主委我們看到了他是12他的利率從12到15.75這麼高的一個利率"},{"start":6280.131,"end":6297.785,"text":"那你還不管嗎?那我們甚至還看到了在下一頁我們看到了一個這個中租他有一個就是專門針對年輕人講的就是中租倫理貸款企業裡頭我們看到了就是"},{"start":6299.286,"end":6311.26,"text":"消費者他的延遲繳款的時候他的就是必須要收取更多的一個利息接近33%我相信你看到這個33%你應該是會非常震撼的是不是"},{"start":6315.382,"end":6336.497,"text":"那委員這個利率應該限民法最高是16那他您說的那個利率會不會可能是累積的延遲的那我跟您報告其實在去年年初所謂的先買後付BNPL開始盛行我們其實就有列出一個從銀行監理上要注意的原則包括資訊的接觸給主任工會請他去要會員去做參考就是說"},{"start":6339.279,"end":6363.369,"text":"主任公司他瞄準了學生他的信用額度低的一個群眾作為主要的一個受眾受眾的一個那個他們的一個等於是他們的一個對象那其實這些人就是一個基本上比較沒有還款能力的那為什麼他們會針對這些人因為他不需要去徵信他的財力嘛"},{"start":6364.639,"end":6391.827,"text":"那如果你身為就是這個金管會我們也知道說你為了避免學生面臨到債務的一個風險所以你在信用卡業務機構的一個管理辦法裡頭第23條你有規定禁止對學生做行銷那況且你還有一個2萬元的額度的上限那問題就是說你的主任公司他是不做財務的一個調查的不做信用的一個調查的那這該怎麼辦呢"},{"start":6393.359,"end":6410.789,"text":"報告委員,我不太確定您說的他不做財務或信用調查,因為我們也有瞭解,他們也表達他們也表達他們可能會做,而且我們去年年初...他們是不做的,我跟你說,主委,他們是不做的,你是不是要讓局長來回答?好,請局長跟您報告,謝謝。"},{"start":6413.288,"end":6430.527,"text":"報告委員,確實諸董公司是沒有辦法做到像銀行這樣的徵信,因為銀行是可以參與聯繩。所以主委你有聽到了?不過我要說明的就是說,他們原則上他們會去查一些中華徵信的一些資料,"},{"start":6431.047,"end":6445.614,"text":"然後用這些資料還有一些就是借款人想的一些行為我跟你講租賃公司的貸款他是不跟那個聯徵掛鉤的他怎麼查勒他只是意思意思就是告訴你"},{"start":6446.334,"end":6462.686,"text":"我想你們沒有深入這些問題那你們也一直就是在迴避這些問題那就是說主委我再請你看到下一張圖為什麼就是說請你們一定要管因為如果你不管的話你自己的銀行也受到影響"},{"start":6464.614,"end":6486.415,"text":"這個銀行助紂為虐業者向銀行貸款取得資金然後這個資產這個這個破產會引發蝴蝶效應我想你從這張圖裡頭非常清楚的看到了到113年的一月底八家公股銀行對融資公司你們的貸款的餘額就是在這裡"},{"start":6487.964,"end":6508.871,"text":"在這裡這高達了1268億如果業者因為研製力過高的話資金沒有辦法取得那償還銀行的貸款是不是會導致銀行的風險增加呢?會不會?主委報委員這些額度不見得都是做您的PNPL的他有可能商業性的租賃的"},{"start":6510.08,"end":6535.923,"text":"非常好喔主委你這樣講齁那在未來如果有相對的這一些風險產生的時候我希望你也可以講相對的一個問題我今天跟你探討了就是說這可能延伸出來的一些問題我們該怎麼樣去管理而不是撇清啊我們沒有撇清其實這些上市公司其實證交所也都有做一些查核"},{"start":6537.441,"end":6558.859,"text":"所以你認為沒有問題你再看下一張這個實質的一個那個單保品他甚至一台舊式的一個車子他都可以一個摩托車他都可以帶到30萬你甚至在網路上你請你的那個下面下面的人抓給你看你在網路上你輕易你就可以"},{"start":6559.52,"end":6583.53,"text":"很快的就是找到了一台摩托車可以借30萬一台超過15年的汽車可以借到80萬這樣的一個廣告況且他特別跟你標註免財力免財力這非常可怕主委你要正視這些問題啊我了解謝謝委員的提醒謝謝那怎麼辦呢我現在跟你提醒了那你該怎麼做呢"},{"start":6586.006,"end":6613.368,"text":"他們很可怕的就是說他們商品的一個商品袋商品袋其實是一個謊是一個騙局他核准了以後業務員告訴了這個貸款的學生還是這個貸款人他說等一下有人會打電話問你你就說我確實有買了一個60吋的商品還是我有買了一個手機還是我有買了一個薄金包"},{"start":6615.133,"end":6637.062,"text":"這個是很嚴重很嚴重每天就是在我們市周圍就一直在發生的一些金融傷害的一個問題主委委員您提的一些個案當然非常的重要但是我們對這幾家您所提到的這些公司其實我們也做過了解我們沒有說完全就是置之度外"},{"start":6638.65,"end":6666.641,"text":"所以就是說我想這個主委你也看到了這個事情的一個嚴重性所以在最後一頁那我希望就是主委在一個月後你提出了一個比較完整的一個說明給本席那因為現在民間的主任業者已經逐漸步入了20年前雙卡風暴的一個各家銀行的一個後塵同時我們根據2021年金管會的一個統計"},{"start":6668.401,"end":6694.898,"text":"當時旗下擁有或是轉投資主任業的銀行跟金控就才14家這些業者就是受到金管會的一個監督但是不是金管會旗下的一個主任業者是緩而成為不受你監督的一個影子銀行這個影子銀行其實會造成社會很大的一個亂象跟金融的風暴所以我希望就是說主委在"},{"start":6696.16,"end":6703.795,"text":"給本席一份資料就是說未來如何統一的一個納管那最好就是在520以前不過我也是看好520以後你應該會繼續在這個位置"},{"start":6707.355,"end":6709.256,"text":"謝謝賴慧雯委員質詢接著我們請王宏威王委員質詢"},{"start":6742.691,"end":6748.115,"text":"好主席我請那個我們金管會主委有請黃天牧主委委員長我也請我們檢察局局長一起上來請檢察局我們的局長張局長好主委、局長在去年我揭發踢爆"},{"start":6769.13,"end":6797.85,"text":"合庫投信他們有違反公司治理也就是包含董事長還有當時的行銷長還有另外一位他們有違反相關規定接受海外基金公司的招待到東京然後在10天之後就跟這家公司也就是NY Melon簽約"},{"start":6799.315,"end":6825.757,"text":"那這個在去年踢爆之後我要求金管會必須要做金融檢查因為這個他們內部其實多次的包含跟合庫金控的總公司包含跟金管會來投訴但是一直都沒有處理所以我想請教主委這個你們因為我知道你們已經去做過經檢經檢的結果是怎樣"},{"start":6829.424,"end":6850.315,"text":"檢查的結果我們對於核庫監控他在集合這個投信的一些做法以及核庫投信做法都有做檢查在12月中那檢查的結果是原則上那三位出國的人基本上應該都不符原來這個基金那個基金公司企業規定出國的人員的資格"},{"start":6852.737,"end":6866.571,"text":"核酷監控部份可能在集合上面也有就是受檢舉之後去集合其實它的整個集合出來的結果兩次的人力都是相同的我們也提出檢查的意見"},{"start":6867.532,"end":6883.058,"text":"那至於說合股投信派不符合那個契約規定條件的人去去去參訪我們還有這些相關的缺失我們請他內部自行要議處相關實質人員那另外提出整個的改善計畫我們是2月7號發發函的在3個月之內提報董事會之後到金管會好"},{"start":6889.955,"end":6899.077,"text":"所以這個案子確實核庫投信他們確實有違反相關的規定而且核庫"},{"start":6900.359,"end":6927.927,"text":"金控的檢查也有瑕疵有不周全的地方所以才在我們金管會再度的去檢查之後發現它裡面確實有缺失那所以你第一個你要求合庫投信要做處理甚至要溢儲那第二個合庫金控總公司的集合他們自己也要有檢討那你剛才說你要讓他們幾月提出相關的"},{"start":6929.207,"end":6931.79,"text":"所以這件事情跟我更早之前一樣的去踢爆何苦"},{"start":6949.281,"end":6970.8,"text":"投信,對不起不是合股投信合股金控下面的合股AMC人模不章就是任用私人董事長任用包含他的外甥還有包含他的小三還有包含他的調阿咖還有任用包含他的這個事業夥伴的"},{"start":6971.721,"end":6995.538,"text":"子女通通放到核庫AMC去那當然在去年核庫AMC也做了一處這幾個人通通滾蛋這連續兩個事情嚴重暴露我們現在的公股事業公股銀行裡面其實他有嚴重的公司治理的問題你同不同意"},{"start":6997.455,"end":7021.608,"text":"在一年內何苦這麼大的一家公股、金控公司兩個子公司都出現了這個問題至於有沒有違反相關的公司治理問題我們認為金控對子公司的管理部分應該是有問題的當然有問題那只是呢我們的這個何苦"},{"start":7022.85,"end":7052.042,"text":"金融有這麼大問題照樣升官的升官這個都是很大的問題所以我在這邊雖然這個可能不是我們金管會的一個職權但是呢我會來做推動為了避免我們這些公庫金融公司下面的子公司這些人士裡面會不會有任用私人去藏私人包含自己銀行高層隨便任用"},{"start":7052.802,"end":7061.686,"text":"甚至我直接說其他的行政官員甚至包含我們院內有沒有立法委員的子女也塞進這些"},{"start":7063.82,"end":7083.421,"text":"公司裡面寄生公股機構公司那我告訴大家這個是我為什麼進入財政委員會我會特別特別的去把這些抓出來所以我在這邊因為我們有會議記錄我會推動一件事情就是我們現在"},{"start":7085.123,"end":7097.721,"text":"金控公司裡面的銀行它是過去因為它有制度是公開招考所以它有一定的標準它公開招考至少它要透明公開但它裡面有沒有問題還是有問題啦"},{"start":7100.202,"end":7128.995,"text":"但是至少他公開招考但是到了子公司的部分就沒有了所以裡面就容易有這些我直接說藏污納垢的現象所以我認為竟然我們銀行有招考子公司也應該比照做公開招考公開透明第一個你數字可以提升第二個你不會有這種私人人士的任用主委你同不同意"},{"start":7130.953,"end":7132.735,"text":"財團法人金融聯合徵信中心董事長有在現場嗎?"},{"start":7159.687,"end":7189.202,"text":"好來董事長沒有沒有主委你還是還是以你為主董事長請問你當時說要去聯合徵信中心你說你要抓中資你抓了幾件中資啊包括我也我沒有說這種話而且我也不知道這個話從哪邊來的我從來沒有講過這種話所以你有沒有抓到什麼中資嗎好OK來那個主委"},{"start":7192.503,"end":7214.833,"text":"我們現在精通除了我剛才講說有這種任用私人之外還有一個很大的問題就是年齡都根本超齡了過去總經理65、董事長68現在完全沒有人在遵守然後一樣70歲也照樣任用完全破壞規矩另外"},{"start":7215.942,"end":7234.737,"text":"在我們整個的金管會下面你們有幾個單位來拜訪我特別講他的資歷怎樣怎樣特別跟我講說我就是這家公司我是從基層做起我說很好至少你是有專業的你也不是呢是政治任命或者政治酬庸"},{"start":7235.908,"end":7262.249,"text":"今天很不好意思董事長在現場董事長1月份繼續擔任董事長但是你的年齡事實上已經超過65歲我今天讓你一個人站這邊其實對你有一點不好意思因為在我們的公股、金控什麼子公司、銀行像你這樣狀況比比皆是一拖拉顧啊我們怎麼金融改革改革成這個樣子呢對不對"},{"start":7265.796,"end":7289.654,"text":"而且我也認為金融就應該專業化我不客氣說董事長我今天為什麼請你過來因為你過去你長期你在這個之前你都是在我們現在林佳龍是總統府秘書長嘛都在他臺灣智庫的執行長嘛而且你主要的是過去是大陸研究所教授所以"},{"start":7291.864,"end":7303.899,"text":"現在主委啊,你下面的可能問題我都有,我會繼續檢查還沒有那麼大我看起來大部分都還是有它的專業性"},{"start":7306.314,"end":7326.487,"text":"但是我們的現在金控就是亂七八糟完全沒有過去所以搞到年輕人通通都要離開我們的金控公司沒有這種道理所以同樣的我會用這樣方式去責成財政部檢討他金控公司這些高層人士的任用"},{"start":7327.367,"end":7341.574,"text":"不要這樣的破壞規矩一再的破壞上面高層人士任用甚至政治仇傭下面呢大家也一樣任用私人我剛講了好幾個例子一個何苦一年被我抓出兩起不嚴重嗎?非常嚴重欸"},{"start":7344.375,"end":7364.877,"text":"何故難道不是很重要的重要的一個公股、金控公司嗎?所以同樣的,我也希望金管會下面、轄下的這些金融機構、相關機構,你們也等於專業、透明、公開,而且要符合相關的制度,可不可以?"},{"start":7365.874,"end":7386.239,"text":"是,我們會朝委員指示的方向去努力我這邊可不可以我講一兩句話但是跟委員講的也許不完全一致可不可以我可以跟您報告因為您請郭董事長上來我必須要跟您報告如果有冒犯您,您再指導他雖然年紀超過可是他在他任期"},{"start":7387.119,"end":7408.394,"text":"我跟我一起同時擔任他在永續金融跟金融科技方面真的是積極認識做了很多很多事所以我們是在他的專業跟過去績效的前提之下才同意他續任的我這點也許跟您的想法不一樣我還是要再因為您請他上來我還是要替他講幾句話不好意思跟您報告謝謝"},{"start":7410.291,"end":7426.436,"text":"因為我已經超時了你看我們的召委都已經站起來了你的說法我會聽但是我的這個原則還是希望能夠你們能夠遵循謝謝謝謝委員知道謝謝王宏偉委員的質詢接著我們請陳玉珍委員主席我們請黃主委有請黃主委"},{"start":7442.937,"end":7442.957,"text":"委員長"},{"start":7446.94,"end":7457.667,"text":"我們金門地區最近3年發生的這個詐騙案有846件110年225件110年316件110年305件詐騙手法大概是假交友假投資然後101件解除分期付款49件假網派48件那詐騙件在假投資方面金門地區大概這幾年被詐騙大概有1億1488萬多還有假貿公營的1000多萬解除分期付款400多萬"},{"start":7477.2,"end":7483.063,"text":"金門人口結構快速老化65歲以上的老人佔總人口數的17%進入高齡社會常常有老人受騙、退休公務員、養老金被詐騙接一陣子金融評議中心有去金門表示要進一步跟金門的六齡學習中心合作、開展"},{"start":7504.412,"end":7529.114,"text":"更多的針對高齡居民的這個金融知識講座和培訓課程。除了這個以外,今晚會對於防止老人詐騙有什麼對策嗎?其實我們在今天的報告中有提到,如果是老年人他臨櫃的部分,他的匯款的額度,我們都有特別的一個感受。我有看到齁,有兩個嘛,三萬跟五十萬,我有看到齁。那除了這樣以外呢?"},{"start":7530.496,"end":7531.177,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7547.971,"end":7548.111,"text":"財政委員會長"},{"start":7565.646,"end":7591.257,"text":"去368個鄉鎮跟2萬多個社區民眾面對面的溝通那請委員如果您同意的話安排這樣子的活動那我們繼續再往下請問這個主委證券交易法第6條規定裡面規定有價證券指政府債券、公司股票、公司債券等等有價證券新股認購的權利證書新股權利證書還有其他有價證券四位有價證券那前兩項這你相當熟悉我想請問您"},{"start":7603.802,"end":7616.805,"text":"這是個有限合夥人在有限合夥的出資而是不是證券交易法所規定的有價證券?這個我不太清楚,看政經局,因為我這個定義部分要很小心講出來。這位副局長,哪一位可以回答?"},{"start":7624.209,"end":7626.451,"text":"有價證券對不特定人做招募可能涉及到有價證券的招募行為。"},{"start":7655.61,"end":7663.498,"text":"但是有價證券出資額這個東西來講比如說一般的民間公司它也是有出資額這個歸不歸你們監管?"},{"start":7665.851,"end":7684.4,"text":"一般的沒有上市櫃的公司因為它也是有價證券嘛我們歸管的公司法所募集發行的股票股份有限公司的股票是所有中華民國所有的股份有限公司的"},{"start":7687.962,"end":7714.58,"text":"報告委員公司法成立股份有限公司那他發行股票但是他發行股票以後不見得是證交法管的要做一個補辦公開發行做資訊接到才會進到我們所以到了公開所以我們把這個切清楚嗎所以到了公開發行如果有到公開發行的那個階段才歸你們管是嗎對他要做公開發行他開始做公開開始要公開發行就歸你們管"},{"start":7717.661,"end":7731.945,"text":"公開發行其實我們的概念是資訊的公開發行不是說他做公開發行就是把股票賣給不特定的人這個行為是受到證交法即使他沒有公開發行他做這個行為就是違反證交法22條的規定"},{"start":7733.991,"end":7736.632,"text":"所以我的問題很簡單就只有這個題目有限合夥人在有限合夥的出資額是不是屬於有價證券的範圍"},{"start":7747.425,"end":7764.55,"text":"為公開發行的股票是不是屬於有價證券的範圍?貴不貴證交法這個你們管的範圍?如果它在我們境內做公開招募的行為然後是股票的話就會觸犯到證交法的規定所以歸你們管"},{"start":7767.028,"end":7781.127,"text":"所以歸你們管轄範圍啦歸你們監管啦就是他要有公開募集的行為的時候他才會歸到我們管我會問這個問題是因為有事實上國內有這個很多的這個新創這個公司的業者事實上我好像"},{"start":7782.068,"end":7805.928,"text":"上一屆也跟你們討論過新創公司募集資金的問題我們舉了一些例子那時候跟你們說2012年美國的歐巴馬政府要解決我說的是新創公司取得資金的方式歐巴馬政府有提出一個股權群募法案叫Jobs Act英國的FCA也提出監理沙盒"},{"start":7808.811,"end":7827.446,"text":"新加坡的金融管理局也有提出一個全新的投資基金管理架構有別一般的公司法但是我們國家在做新創公司募集新創公司要做募集資金的方面我們做了什麼事情2014年我們有維景櫃買中心推動了創櫃板2015年有做了股權性質"},{"start":7834.031,"end":7843.939,"text":"群眾募資管理有7家業者2017年有一個什麼金融科技發展創新條例喊出要把臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心我想請教2015年做的7家的群眾募資管理辦法7家業者獲得經營到目前為止"},{"start":7854.486,"end":7872.038,"text":"這個的確是櫃台買賣中心有Craft Funding創櫃也是2013年開始去做的櫃台買賣中心董事長、總經理列席這個7家那時候獲准金融以後到目前為止金融的績效如何?"},{"start":7881.332,"end":7909.691,"text":"委員報告當初有申請7家但現在只有3家還維持著牌照但是基本上都沒有有在經營嗎沒有在經營沒有什麼特別業務沒有什麼在經營對不對對對對沒有什麼在經營當初我們為了這個國內要推動這個新創公司的募集資金要做這方面的努力鼓勵新創公司但是這7家現在基本上都沒有在經營那請問2017年你們所做這個金融科技發展創新實驗條例"},{"start":7911.553,"end":7925.383,"text":"這這個新創的成果如何呢?到目前為止有多少個案件呢?報告委員我可不可以這樣跟您報告?如果你是關心我們對於創新事業的募資的籌集我們現在櫃買中心以前的戰略新版現在已經合併成為創衛版跟證交所的創新版"},{"start":7931.027,"end":7954.26,"text":"但是我們要看你們的歷史表現嘛你們2015年有推動這個有7家業者成立嘛,獲准嘛那剛剛我們歸買中心告訴我說現在是基本上都沒有任何人在推動報告委員我可以跟您報告Crawl Founding 跟創新不完全是連結的它是一個群眾為了特定的目的它大家集資去做的一件事情但是創惠版也有一些特別寬鬆的條件"},{"start":7956.142,"end":7975.814,"text":"我問的就是你們的過去的業績做得怎麼樣?櫃買中心就你們在推這個當初有7家後來你說現在歇業只剩下3家這3家又沒有任何的新創的這個產生你們有沒有去檢討過這個所發生的原因?可能的原因是什麼?為什麼會這樣?因為我們國家一直在推動新創嘛支持這個新創產生"},{"start":7976.854,"end":7997.933,"text":"那委員我可以跟您報告其實從2020開始我們交易所跟購買中心都在推動創新版包括戰略新版我們可以把那個報告那個是創新版吧我說的是你們所推動的這個7家到現在基本上都是歇業然後請你告訴我你的金融科技發展創新實驗條例的這個新創業者的這個成果有多少件"},{"start":7998.453,"end":8021.027,"text":"那個是金融科技的我問的是兩個問題嘛我要問的是你們過去做的怎麼樣嘛剛剛那個基本上就是零嘛成績是零嘛那這個呢那個不是零東協業不叫零不然叫什麼養德大樓樓上有個創新園區有好幾十家各國的創新業者剛剛我問的是櫃板中心他剛不是跟我說零嗎他剛不是說沒有在做嗎"},{"start":8022.11,"end":8046.411,"text":"那是群眾募資目前沒有?沒有在做嗎?但是創櫃板還是有?我是問創櫃板,我剛剛就是問你群募啊。群募那個不見得叫做創新,那是一個集資的一個作為。我問的是綜合的,我問的就是你這個,你不用跟我玩這個文字遊戲,你過去的這個7家的結果是怎麼樣?你們既然要往國家往這個方向去走,走創新產業的方向去走,你們就應該要,你們推動這個應該要一個,"},{"start":8048.152,"end":8067.009,"text":"至少有一定的業績,那如果沒有,請你告訴我是什麼原因嗎?可以嗎?創新是有業績,但是Crawl Founding不是等於創新,那是一個集資。好,麻煩你齁,因為時間到,麻煩你齁,我剛剛問的這個問題齁,把相關的資料準備好,我們準備一份呈給委員參考。好,謝謝,多久呢?"},{"start":8068.112,"end":8073.201,"text":"一個月之內是不是可以?一個月喔?好,謝謝。謝謝委員,謝謝。謝謝陳一尊委員的質詢。待會我們在顏匡文委員質詢之後休息10分鐘。接著我們請吳立華委員質詢。"},{"start":8101.095,"end":8102.703,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請黃主委有請黃主委"},{"start":8109.356,"end":8110.457,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8139.136,"end":8162.782,"text":"那目前最新的話應該是說是一個3.0版那我看到的是有公告永續經濟活動認定參考的指引那辦理永續金融評鑑或者是要求上市貴公司定期發布永續報告等等那這個部分我們當然知道這個永續的概念"},{"start":8164.062,"end":8182.87,"text":"是在這個3.0榜當中其實是避免一些票率啦就是宣稱他有對一些對永續環境的這樣的一個做法但是可能實際上沒有但是我比較想了解請教主委的是這個永續的概念有沒有包含原住民族的金融"},{"start":8184.538,"end":8212.942,"text":"我們現在這三個階段基本上都是以機構為主就是金融機構跟上市會公司那原住民部分在普惠方面是有涵蓋是帶給您報告其實我會這樣問是因為我了解其他國家他們其實有在關注原住民的金融服務以澳洲來看那澳洲有一個澳洲可持續金融倡議第一個他有要求"},{"start":8213.802,"end":8220.845,"text":"建立原住民的金融服務辦公室關注原住民金融架構設計與服務包容性鼓勵金融機構讓原住民獲得"},{"start":8230.289,"end":8250.058,"text":"銀行的服務跟退休金的服務那另外呢他們也會強化對原住民有益而且適當的保險產品那更重要的是呢他們對於一些投資者所做的淨值調查他們也會去看有沒有尊重原住民的權利那另外像紐西蘭這個國家"},{"start":8251.278,"end":8254.623,"text":"貿易商業永續金融中心貿易商業永續金融中心貿易商業永續金融中心貿易商業永續金融中心"},{"start":8270.122,"end":8291.537,"text":"與銀行合作去支持一些針對毛利土地貸款的解決方案那舉個例子他們也會針對一些想要蓋房子的去做一個專案計畫幫助他們去做辦理貸款建造房屋又或者呢我們看到加拿大那加拿大的做法是他們有一個永續金融行動的委員會"},{"start":8292.518,"end":8315.166,"text":"他們重視的是加強原住民在永續金融的一個參與那他們有一個叫綠色與轉型金融分類路徑圖當中有一個叫不造成重大損害的評估他就有去包含尊重原住民權利跟和解這個部分所以我想要請教一下主委那您有沒有一些看法想法"},{"start":8315.546,"end":8339.382,"text":"因為在您初次來辦公室拜訪的時候我有跟您提到我很關心未來原住民土地在我們金融服務的一個角色那我覺得您是非常友善也很有想法那我是在想說是否有讓原住民族參與強化或支持族人金融安全那也避免這個所謂的票率在受信的"},{"start":8339.662,"end":8342.183,"text":"主委,您帶來更廣泛的社會價值,讓我們學習,非常感謝。您提到的,如果從上數位公司來講,"},{"start":8360.208,"end":8385.926,"text":"我們現在的永續報告書是依照荷蘭GRI去編制的那它這裡面是有定有原住民相關規範有幾個原則來揭露包括不歧視原住民那永無違反原住民人權對原住民員工的照顧那這些如果上次會公司有做這些事或是做了這些事有影響他都應該在永續報告書說去揭露"},{"start":8386.368,"end":8411.024,"text":"所以目前已經有這樣規劃了嗎?有這樣子的規範只是而且不只如此因為我們要求金融機構做投融資的時候要跟要做議核那如果後面的那個投資的對象他有牽涉到原住民這當然也應該是在這個裡面議核的範圍之內所以原則上應該是有那我們會強化落實好那如果有的話因為我自己看我是看不到"},{"start":8411.784,"end":8439.382,"text":"我看了綠色金融行動方案3.0又或者是永續經濟活動的認定方法我目前是看不到但是主委您說有嘛所以我是在想說是不是可以請金管會聯同園民會這邊能夠就永續金融架構中剛才您說有那我是在想說如果有的話又或者沒有那是不是要去做一些修改那是不是三個月內可以讓我可以看到一個書面報告"},{"start":8440.916,"end":8462.337,"text":"好,委員會您報告,因為我們也了解國內現在的園民會其實他統籌原住民各類型的經濟活動相關的活動那這個事情如果你也可不可以麻煩委員業跟原住民委員會提一下我們會跟他去諮詢溝通,其實在維新保險方面金管會跟原住民委員會都有很好的合作"},{"start":8462.857,"end":8488.614,"text":"對沒有關係我是希望說能夠在金管會的架構底下因為畢竟園民會他其實並不是所謂的金融專業單位好我想委員您的期許跟指示我們會跟園民會溝通看看我們的綠色金融現在這個方案中有沒有可以增加一些關注原住民的政策是不是這樣可以我們三個月之內給您完成我就是希望可以看到這些好不好"},{"start":8489.274,"end":8514.11,"text":"因為我們也很羨慕國外的做法我們也是很進步的國家希望我們也能夠有這些好的服務主委其實我講這些還是要回歸到一件事情因為這件事情其實困擾原住民幾十年也讓原住民窮的只剩下土地原住民是在自己的土地當故宮"},{"start":8515.211,"end":8540.45,"text":"就是一個這樣的窘境困境那因為我們就跟很多各地原住民國家一樣就是原住民保留地他其實有所謂的土地的一些限制問題但是我們的原保地很大喔像私有的話大概有13萬公頃公有的原保地也有13萬公頃可是我要跟主委講"},{"start":8541.491,"end":8557.258,"text":"這一些土地其實早就已經流失大半雖然原住民的保留地只能限制給原住民不能流入非原住民但是道高一尺 魔高一丈這些年透過各種方法"},{"start":8557.938,"end":8573.285,"text":"包括我們的設定抵押、借名登記等等那乃至於現在因為我們有進法補償金這幾年所以呢也很多人都把它視為很搶手的拍地霧甚至"},{"start":8573.985,"end":8586.691,"text":"有很多人就是透過原住民自己用現金去直接收購很多很多的原保地那我們也不知道會留作什麼用途所以在這個地方我很希望說能夠趕快遏止這樣的現象我們來看一下"},{"start":8590.913,"end":8606.928,"text":"一般的林地我們可以看到它在市場建價其實是可以帶到很多就是以市場建價即便是打八成都有400萬但是元寶地是被拒絕的而且是用公道限值去算"},{"start":8607.469,"end":8636.378,"text":"所以他的價值同樣的一公頃他可能只有160萬可是我們現在就是想說這樣的一個求貸無門就會落入另外一個財務陷阱因為我們到google打元寶地貸款其實啪啦啪啦啪啦一堆但是他們都是私人當鋪而且呢月利率你可以看到這樣其實年利率他就是幾乎就是高利貸但是我接過很多的陳情案他明明只有借一萬元可能兩年後他要還三十幾萬"},{"start":8637.758,"end":8653.153,"text":"為什麼因為他根本對利率一點概念都沒有他可能拿到的是日利率所以我想這個月利13%就已經高利但很可怕了所以我想說這樣的一個惡性循環我是希望說主委您剛剛有提到"},{"start":8653.653,"end":8681.666,"text":"就是我們可不可以去協調這些銀行公會就是禁止金融機構拒絕以原保地做擔保能夠有禁止歧視條款另外您也有提到過就是增加銀行的誘因那能不能夠在ESG永續軍融的評鑑給予加分又或者是參考紐西蘭的做法建立我們原保地的建架系統能夠跟特定的銀行合作給予我們一些專案的金融服務我想"},{"start":8683.127,"end":8695.92,"text":"這個部分是我很在意的那希望主委您是不是有可能就是去討論一些對策那能夠一併的就是也在兩個月或三個月內給予回覆"},{"start":8697.119,"end":8712.914,"text":"是委員提出案子去年10月財政部有討論過了那當然主要還是因為移轉的限制不過我們會遵循委員的意見去跟跨部會做研究包括跟我們的銀行工會去做研究是就照您的意思兩個月之後跟您回覆"},{"start":8713.334,"end":8732.4,"text":"好那非常謝謝主委但是這個研究可行性我們盡量朝您期待的方向去努力是是好謝謝主委給予這樣的一個友善跟肯定支持的答覆感謝您好謝謝主委謝謝主席感謝武力華委員的質詢接著我們請嚴匡衡委員質詢"},{"start":8757.584,"end":8764.174,"text":"主席各位列席官員大家好主席要先請金管委主委有請黃天牧主委是委員長主委早"},{"start":8770.68,"end":8772.401,"text":"虛擬貨幣為何無法當作貨幣使用?"},{"start":8790.595,"end":8815.222,"text":"一般的理解因為虛擬貨幣的價格起伏太大那穩定性低那也無法成為長期支付的工具那有一群一個個體不再受任何中央實體的管制那所以虛擬貨幣去中心化發行這種形式一旦出現任何狀況那無任何發行人或者是機構來負責是不是這樣"},{"start":8818.434,"end":8826.6,"text":"他是一個去中心化而且他就是波動性很高沒有內在價值這些都是他的相對來的弱點"},{"start":8830.812,"end":8846.588,"text":"虛擬貨幣發行門檻低、交易自由度高,容易被不法人士利用,作為洗錢、知恐、逃稅的工具。虛擬貨幣現在雖然是金管會的業務,但是定位不明。您可否告訴我目前是屬於轄下的哪一個業務機關來負責?"},{"start":8848.53,"end":8861.035,"text":"社根委員報告：去年3月行政院指示：屬於投資性質的虛擬資產是由金管會那我們現在請政局局負責那等一下齁因為我先把問題說完那"},{"start":8863.939,"end":8891.917,"text":"因為目前我們金管會有沒有監管處罰虛擬貨幣犯罪的法令以及虛擬貨幣屬於金管會來主管但是處罰貨幣犯罪的法令是否有效的保護投資人及交易人有沒有辦法減少受到詐騙的機會這個部分我跟委員報告我們管是管那個平台"},{"start":8892.984,"end":8917.735,"text":"那就是說他透過虛幣在網路上去詐騙那個不是金管會監管的目的那現在有我們根據洗房法有罰過一個個人避傷他沒有去申報洗錢房子的聲明移送到金管會那我們就給他處分了是有那所以我說剛剛提到就是說有沒有完整的一個處罰的法則明定如何處罰這些犯罪的行為"},{"start":8921.345,"end":8939.753,"text":"只有根據洗房法違反的部分有處分的規定其他目前沒有。VSP指導原則有要求應就虛擬資產白皮書內容與上下架制定審查標準及程序並納入內部控管"},{"start":8940.731,"end":8968.802,"text":"也要求如果透過平臺發行之虛擬資產發行人因於其網站公告所編制的白皮書那平臺應公告該網站連署但虛擬平臺上下架的標準是什麼什麼樣的虛擬資產是好的是適合上架的有沒有一個什麼標準有這個我們是有原則那要請平臺業者自己去做訂定那他也要成立工會那是不是請副局長跟您報告"},{"start":8971.906,"end":8998.627,"text":"報告委員有關這個上下架當然就是依照平台業者他們自己的內控和審核標準然後定在內控裡面那我們這個指導原則也是希望他們有明確的標準所以他們成立工會以後他們會去訂定工會的相關自立規則那這些自立規則如果就像我們剛剛在剛剛一開始就本席前面前述提到的那如果有犯法的嫌違那沒有一個實體可以負責"},{"start":9001.278,"end":9016.833,"text":"平臺是要去負責的平臺是要去負責的那我們相關的法則有沒有現在是我就是跟委員報告我們目前只有洗房法的依據目前還沒有專法那我想要請教市場准入的標準就是說"},{"start":9018.314,"end":9042.485,"text":"市場準入市場的一個誠信跟交易的安全是非常重要那證券跟期貨交易所都有一個具體的規範手段就是透過特許還有執照來控制市場的準入那在VASP的指導原則當中雖然需要完成洗錢防治法令遵循的聲明但是這並非市場準入的規定依照歐盟"},{"start":9043.365,"end":9055.736,"text":"的一個加密資產市場規範有意要向公眾發行與平台上架交易虛擬資產的法人必須向該國主管機關申請核准五國有沒有這樣的措施?"},{"start":9056.877,"end":9081.473,"text":"我們跟您報告分兩階段那第一個階段當然長遠之際就是我們未來定一個專法那現在我們有建議那個洗房法增進一條對於這個以這個虛擬資產為業的來必須要有登記那這部分還在討論中吧專法還在討論中專法在研究中但是可不可以在洗房法裡面安一個條文"},{"start":9084.133,"end":9105.658,"text":"讓這個經營虛擬資產的業者來先做登記,因為他基本上常見的問題就是防止洗錢的問題。好,那這個我剛剛所講了,虛擬貨幣無法成為長期的置物工具,因為它容易成為一個投資炒作的標的。許多的虛擬資產平台都有提供相關的服務,這就造成了很多的不當銷售。"},{"start":9106.978,"end":9123.888,"text":"不當銷售的風險包含為如實陳述的商品還有推銷不適用的商品給客戶那這樣子的情況都很有可能發生變成一個詐欺案件金融法院目前採取的管制方式就是要求他們自律式的管制還有沒有其他做法"},{"start":9124.688,"end":9147.043,"text":"就是還有洗房法的規定,既有檢查有去檢查但是你說就是用洗房法,那當客戶端這一邊一旦發現這個遭受到這樣子的一個現象的時候或者是說變成一個買賣不實或者是一個詐欺案件那再回頭去追溯,這個已經來不及了"},{"start":9149.747,"end":9166.566,"text":"所以我跟委員報告,詐欺當然不是金管會,我們知道會移送或是檢調當然會處理,但是我們去精檢的時候不是只是看他的洗錢防治,也會看他有沒有根據我們去年9月份的指導原則去做,也會列一些檢查的意見讓他去改進。"},{"start":9168.404,"end":9170.645,"text":"這也是我們目前在專法研究上的一個方向專法有沒有一個期程?"},{"start":9197.636,"end":9225.501,"text":"我們大概半年後會提出來一個草案半年後?這個會期不會提出來?這個不會因為還在針對現在各國的情況去做研究接下來因為時間不多接下來的問題包括電子支付請教主委臺灣目前有多少電子支付的業者?可不可以告訴我?大概有差不多10家左右吧10家嗎?30家以上吧?"},{"start":9226.843,"end":9249.411,"text":"沒有那個是兼營的專營的話是實交那可不可以告訴我目前我們像我剛剛在首管我們目前根據資料顯示去年2023年因詐騙案件的總財損就高達79億或許更多因為很多沒有呈現出來"},{"start":9250.791,"end":9269.966,"text":"那詐騙集團往往都透過境外的IP來進行詐騙那當這些當事人發現的時候要來找源頭已經來不及那源頭的控管是最重要所以金管會這邊作為這個主管機關有沒有什麼作為一個措施"},{"start":9270.982,"end":9294.357,"text":"其實這也是我們報告中前面11頁在說的就是電資部分也會去看他後面連結的是不是跟他允許在銀行開戶的電話號碼是一個用這種方式去年已經降低了九成的這些件數所以您這邊所提示的三萬五千件跟七十幾億是不是都是電資也許會後我再跟您請示如果不是電資的話應該不只這樣子那規模應該更龐大"},{"start":9299.56,"end":9323.26,"text":"我們今天的報告書的內容裡面我們有看到就是說我們有很多的這個宣導在校園還有在社區還有拍攝這個這個演示的這種短短影音來做宣導那除了宣導之外還有沒有什麼更更強硬的措施"},{"start":9325.582,"end":9353.571,"text":"強硬的措施其實就是從金流的過程中電資這邊去提醒丟花包括OPT的這些這些提醒就是我想說防詐也會有同步的去處理因為除了宣導之外一定還會有更好的方法因為新形態的詐騙五花八門那不論是虛擬貨幣或者是電子支付都有相當都有很多的便利性那當然"},{"start":9354.831,"end":9368.281,"text":"責騙集團就會利用這個便利性來有機可乘所以我剛剛提到這些是呈現出來的財損的部分那沒有呈現出來或許更多那我們如何讓台灣不會成為詐騙之島"},{"start":9371.203,"end":9396.756,"text":"這個部分這個惡名我不希望說臺灣被冠上這個惡名所以這個監管會主委你身為監管會的主委我們希望能夠在我們未來能夠找出一個更好的方法尤其在源頭的控管能夠有更好的一個作為好不好是謝謝委員主導我們會全力以赴謝謝委員謝謝主委謝謝顏寬恒委員的質詢我們休息10分鐘謝謝"},{"start":10253.114,"end":10269.67,"text":"好,我們繼續開會,接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。好,我想請主委。有請黃主委。"},{"start":10281.01,"end":10309.171,"text":"是委員長是主委長我想今天很多的委員都提到了在臺灣張榮總執行的時候也問過院長我們目前已經有詐騙之島的稱號那今天很多委員也提到了我想問一下對於金管會來說我們國人的詐騙案件如此的大量而且增加的幅度也不小問題到底出在哪裡"},{"start":10311.684,"end":10325.883,"text":"在情政院主柵平台有幾個面向那金管會是屬於主柵部分金流主柵那市柵也做了一些事情金流大概就是在零貴的部分跟網路跟轉帳方面我們做好把關的工作"},{"start":10326.303,"end":10340.11,"text":"所以主委還是沒有辦法說明清楚為什麼詐騙對臺灣人特別有效因為詐騙的案件不斷的變化、多元化甚至有新興的所謂投資詐騙越來越猖獗這個投資詐騙在臺灣現在已經成為詐騙案件的主力了對吧?"},{"start":10347.276,"end":10364.065,"text":"所以我們去年修《投信投股法》70至1條沒錯,也就是說表示民眾是有投資的需要但是他沒有投資的知識或者是相關的素養在金管會其實應該是在金融素養方面應該是主管業者吧"},{"start":10365.802,"end":10379.189,"text":"是我們的責任所以你們也發布了所謂的金融知識普及工作第7期的推動工作所以金融素養推動在金管會是你們的重要業務之一我看到你的報告也這樣寫對吧"},{"start":10380.663,"end":10399.19,"text":"而且不只是我們做是跨部會跟公司合夥一起做好但是主委就像我們剛剛講的這麼多人被詐騙這麼多人容易上當他其實是一個嚴重的就是我們對於所謂的金融或投資的素養不足的情況金融研訓院去2022年公佈臺灣金融生活調查"},{"start":10404.072,"end":10427.235,"text":"這個裡面統計起來有高達四成的20到29歲的年輕人是接近金融文盲也就是說20到29歲年輕人幾乎對於金融沒有任何概念這是現實的狀態這也是國人在金融素養上面很大的缺口金管會有什麼看法"},{"start":10428.277,"end":10444.98,"text":"這表示其實我們過去所做的還有在努力的空間也就是說這個調查結果看了非常的詫異就是20到29幾乎是四成是金融文盲所以年輕族群現在成為投資詐騙的主要高風險族群那高風險裡面"},{"start":10447.097,"end":10461.827,"text":"對於他們沒有財經處長這件事情我們的國家其實沒有相關的目標或者是規劃這邊我跟主委分享一個經驗我們在台北市曾經推動在台北的高中"},{"start":10462.648,"end":10480.321,"text":"高中推動所謂的財經素養財經素養課程我們是請臺大教授然後找了非常多業界的業師進到高中裡面提供財經素養的選秀課一開始是用試辦的方式後來到現在為止臺北、台中、新北"},{"start":10481.516,"end":10508.343,"text":"高中裡面都有所謂財經素養的課程但是它差異最大的是因為一般教育單位他們給的終點費一個小時是400塊但是這些業師他不太可能為了400塊去學校上課所以我當時在台北市擔任副市長的時候我們是去找相關的基金會募了一些款所以業師的講師費大概是一個小時3000塊"},{"start":10510.684,"end":10530.222,"text":"這個目前已經在臺北市三分之二的高中成為選秀課目前推廣到臺中跟新北所以主委這些是財經素養進入高中的一個方法我不知道金管會剛剛講這是你的業館第二個金融知識普及工作也是你的主觀業務"},{"start":10531.984,"end":10541.737,"text":"這個工作能不能請金管會跟教育部甚至各地方政府的教育單位一起來把財經素養列為重要的高中選修課程。"},{"start":10542.842,"end":10564.117,"text":"謝謝委員分享您非常成功的臺北經驗那其實我也跟您報告過去十幾年來我們走入校園從小學到大學有超過一百萬人次也是跟教育部合作但是我想委員您的經驗一定有我們可以學習的地方我們會再跟您多請教主委就是我剛剛講嘛你從小學到大學做到現在是有四成是文盲啊是"},{"start":10564.617,"end":10586.777,"text":"所以你的高中如果可以在他們因為現在課剛修正之後是可以有很多素養課程這個是已經實行過所以您今天可以答應我說在金融知識普及工作裡面你們可以編訂相關的預算來協助我剛剛講的類似在高中裡面選修課程的財經素養課程嗎?或者是說一樣也請相關的業界"},{"start":10587.978,"end":10602.449,"text":"我們當律師的每年都有公益法律服務的時數規定如果可能的話監管會是不是可以透過類似的做法要求金融相關的從業人員他每年有一定的協助這樣子的"},{"start":10603.61,"end":10620.281,"text":"教育推動也有一些公益服務的時數也可以成為將來跟公司協力來推動所謂財經素養至少在我們的教育方面在我們的年輕人的財經素養上面可以有一天的報告不會是四成是文盲"},{"start":10621.101,"end":10644.861,"text":"委員您的垂詢我們會全力以赴,但是有些地方不足的地方……你要給錢還要找人啊?這個我們都有相關周邊單要一起合作。在新政府上任之後,這件事情成為金管會重要的推動方向之一。詐騙之島要從臺灣的惡名中除去,我們要先讓下一代對於"},{"start":10645.982,"end":10656.175,"text":"他的將來的理財有一些基本的概念對於投資有一些基本的知識而不會輕易的受騙上當這是第一步而已"},{"start":10657.216,"end":10681.218,"text":"第二個部分就是接下去的是那融資公司主委融資公司歸不歸你管目前不是不是那你覺得你該不該管你該不該管委員這個道理其實過去也96年97年到107年都有報過行政院都沒有沒有主委那你有沒有看過有一個影片叫做山盜猴子有看過對啊"},{"start":10682.439,"end":10702.486,"text":"你對那個年輕人就剛剛講年輕人的財經素養有一定的差距然後免頭款、全貸款還有多帶一筆錢去改裝車子所以不斷的用車子去借了更多的錢融資公司在臺灣已經成為金融體系劃外之地了你同意嗎?"},{"start":10704.612,"end":10728.086,"text":"委員您的垂詢我們有做處理那那個影片所揭露的事情有些我現在要講的是這些融資公司已經是我們的影子銀行了這個影子銀行不斷的做大在臺北市朱立民商業同業公會光2022年的他們的融資金額在臺北市一個城市高達7253億在臺北市登記有案的融資金額高達7000億諸位啊"},{"start":10734.386,"end":10761.911,"text":"如果一個融資公司是這麼大的系統它是不是一個很龐大的金融類似金融體系的相關系統而他們在金融監管以外現在是全臺灣最大的影子銀行監管會目前我們有三大一個是中租一個是育融一個是合潤他們的資產已經高達一兆五千億然後他們應收賬款"},{"start":10763.496,"end":10772.411,"text":"放在外面的錢應收賬款高達一兆目前沒有人管你也不管那請問這是誰在管"},{"start":10773.137,"end":10797.51,"text":"報告委員我跟兩部分跟您報告這三家都是上市公司是那上市公司交易所本來就會用內控的角度去做查核包括他的財務第二點我們前一段時間有約談這三家公司其中包括一家公司也對那個影片中的事實做了一個重訓做澄清主委現在的問題就在於因為他沒有基本進入所謂的金融機構"},{"start":10799.151,"end":10827.049,"text":"相關體系像金管會這樣嚴格的管控但是它涉及的規模的金流這是非常非常重大也就是說你現在納管的叫電子支付一年的金額是2400億然後接下去我們現在正在規範的叫做虛擬通貨平台有另一個辦法也就是說這些我們目前金額規模都不到那麼大的情況下都納管了"},{"start":10827.648,"end":10844.108,"text":"融資租賃公司沒有道理淪落在銀行或金管會之外也就是你2000多億的也管300多億的也管但是就是不管這個7、8億上兆的金融資產所謂的融資租賃公司這樣合理嗎?"},{"start":10844.889,"end":10847.111,"text":"主委我只有一個要求這些包括電子支付、包括虛擬資產金管會都做了最低成數的監管"},{"start":10866.169,"end":10886.599,"text":"是融資租賃公司我覺得至少要比照虛擬資產業者做洗房申明還有相關的基本最低程度的納管你同意嗎?這我們已經做了2018評鑑的時候我們就已經就歸根結束了金管會把融資租賃也納管這才是我們今天最大的需求"},{"start":10887.139,"end":10913.597,"text":"如果可以的話請主委把這個列為未來的工作重點好嗎我們可以研究因為這我跟您報告現在公司分際有融資業務的有6800多家我們到底這個東西範圍跟它的定義是什麼還要再確定我們要管什麼是不是要管這個東西要在所以我只要求最低的就好以上謝謝謝謝委員謝謝謝謝黃常常委員的諮詢接著我們請李坤澄委員諮詢"},{"start":10923.203,"end":10946.891,"text":"來謝謝主席我們請黃主委先讓你先喝口茶黃主委好是委員長這個辛苦了一早上也問了這麼多回了我先請教一下這個在2020年的時候受到新冠肺炎的疫情的影響那所以呢我們金管會呢就停付中國實力精簡"},{"start":10948.325,"end":10973.247,"text":"然後我看你們在2024年的預算書上面有提到說有計劃打算在今年3月到11月要赴中國經檢但是去中國經檢都必須跟中方事先先取得聯繫同意之後才能成行這幾個禮拜以來因為中國快艇的非法越界逃避海巡查緝的翻船事件"},{"start":10974.068,"end":10986.282,"text":"兩岸的關係有那麼一點點緊張那我想請問一下主委這個有沒有這個計畫繼續這個要到中國經檢那有跟中方聯繫嗎那預計何時會過去"},{"start":10990.291,"end":11018.134,"text":"因為我們跟對岸有千里千里備忘錄所以各國都一樣要去對方實地監檢需要經過對方主管機關同意那今年會去但是進度到什麼是不是請局長給你報告我意思是說有跟中方聯繫了嗎因為我看預算書上面是有這個計畫對我們今天是有這個計畫目前正在跟那個陸委會在報備中陸委會如果他說同意了我們就會進一步再跟大陸這邊再做聯繫"},{"start":11019.301,"end":11028.248,"text":"所以現在是還要陸委會同意才跟中方聯繫所以現在還沒跟中方聯繫就對了還沒有那就是說那過去的時間呢?預計咧?"},{"start":11032.403,"end":11053.695,"text":"就是看聯繫的結果就是陸委會這邊先給我們表示正面的意見之後我們就會跟對方監理機關聯繫所以是有打算要去就對了有那就是等陸委會那邊的決定就對了不是只是等陸委會決定之後再跟中方聯繫嘛確認他沒有任何其他的意見我們就會跟對方監理機關去跟他請教他們的意見"},{"start":11055.481,"end":11075.534,"text":"好 這個我有看你們的這個報告那其實你們這個報告裡面第一點就提到了這個未來工作重點就是防制金融詐騙保障國人權益那真的是這個大家所關心的就是打詐騙那其實我們在這個選舉的時候常常就遇到說這個詐騙實在太氾濫了"},{"start":11076.975,"end":11096.437,"text":"當然我也知道說政府是做了很多的準備的工作那其中你們有提到說林桂關懷的成效那當然我看就是說就112年這個攔阻的這個案件有增加增加了這個3321件攔阻的金額也有增加增加了33.48億元"},{"start":11099.982,"end":11116.255,"text":"這兩年來藍組的金額大概是118億這是你們的報告當然業務報告上面寫說這個是成效顯著也是為自己的加油打氣但是跟民眾的實際的感受"},{"start":11117.316,"end":11133.094,"text":"還是有落差的我拿這個中正大學犯罪研究中心他們所公布的當然這是111年或許112年會比較高一點點他們對於這個犯罪防治滿意度的調查研究報告其中啊"},{"start":11133.955,"end":11156.991,"text":"關於說民眾對政府在詐騙、犯罪防治的表現有超過半數五成三還是不滿意那表示說政府所做的跟民眾的期待還是有落差那我再拿這個刑事警察局的統計來做個說明這個刑事警察局統計這個詐騙的案數我就舉2022跟2023好了詐騙的案數是增加的從2萬9增加到3萬7"},{"start":11164.095,"end":11178.44,"text":"財產的損失也是增加的,從73.2億增加到88.7億。攔阻金額當然我們做了很多打詐的一些措施,零貴關懷等等。攔阻的金額也有增加,從50.5億到89.8億。當然就是說從正面的說法來看,"},{"start":11187.515,"end":11207.403,"text":"這兩年攔阻的金額有140億但是財產損失方面有160億財產損失還是比攔阻的還要多這是刑事警察局的統計然後就財產損失跟攔阻的金額把它加起來當作是一個詐騙的規模好了"},{"start":11210.594,"end":11237.048,"text":"在2022年是123億就是財產損失加上攬主金額的但是2023年就達到178億所以整個攬主金額加上這個詐騙的財產損失實際上整個詐騙的規模還是增加的想請教一下主委的看法我當然知道政府很用心打詐無法在去年5月底的都通過了但是這個數字都還是增加的"},{"start":11238.953,"end":11267.647,"text":"委員其實詐騙有好幾個界面那剛才講的一百億那是零貴關懷那另外還有比如說網路約定轉帳還有投資詐騙這些其實都不是剛才前面的數字所涵蓋的那其實我在報告中的第五頁跟第七頁都有講今年第一季有些新的措施就揮名單的通報好那我就請教你新的措施在3月1號有一個新的措施這是按照這個洗錢防治法的一個規定"},{"start":11270.188,"end":11287.101,"text":"這個大概就是有關於這個人頭賬戶的限制嗎?對,初屆人頭賬戶他得到他的一個裁罰。對,從3月1號開始嗎?對。那我是按照這個警政署的一個數字好了。我看看齁。這個規定。"},{"start":11290.469,"end":11315.08,"text":"這個規定落實之後啦因為是去年5月底啦去年5月底這個我們這個打詐無法其中有關洗錢房市法修正的通過然後呢他說到3月1號法務部的新聞稿到現在為止有超過一萬兩千人受到告誡的處分那就是說這一萬兩千人是適用這個新的規定就對了是他的帳戶的功能跟額度都會受到限制受到什麼樣的限制"},{"start":11315.731,"end":11344.074,"text":"就是他也許每天一天只能使用一定的金額或他轉帳各方面都有他等於說他的自由使用的金融的這種帳戶的權利受到克制我看你們新聞稿上面是寫的大概每天轉帳不能超過一萬塊啦是阿所以說這個新法這個這個洗錢防治法修正在去年5月30號通過之後到現在3月1號看這個數字大概有一萬兩千人受到告誡的處分這個是警察在做處理的嘛"},{"start":11345.539,"end":11353.806,"text":"也要金融機構一起配合我再請教一下主委銀行還有信用合作社警示賬戶按照我這邊的數字這個應該是金管會提供的"},{"start":11361.155,"end":11383.807,"text":"在112年6月30號是累計的有10萬4千件但是到了112年12月底到了11萬8千多件這個警示帳戶還是增加的警示帳戶應該是警政單位他們確定之後告訴銀行去具以去對這個帳戶去做一些功能的限制我說這個跟人頭帳戶勒"},{"start":11385.75,"end":11408.135,"text":"這個就是有可能是人頭賬戶嗎?對,那我的意思是說,那當然這個是半年的期間打債務法期間,防治法是5月30號通過那你們是3月1號才正式實施這個告誡的處分那當然這8個月來啦,我想請教這8個月來這個人頭賬戶,就是這個檢視賬戶有沒有稍微下降一點?"},{"start":11410.124,"end":11423.115,"text":"其實還是有一些增加啦那我跟您報告因為洗房法通過通過執法然後這個告誡賬戶處分的部分還要銀行修系統所以才會到3月1號"},{"start":11425.117,"end":11445.606,"text":"不是說中間沒有做事了好我知道那3月1號這個實施齁那還有你們還有一個新的規定約定轉帳這是約定轉帳的齁剛剛是講人頭帳我現在是約定轉帳有一個事前事中事後的管控措施也是預計3月底要上路嗎是那這個是指這個呃國營國家的銀行"},{"start":11450.1,"end":11464.137,"text":"還是全部的銀行大家都要做大家都要做包含民營就最多要做全部都要做對這個3月底所有的銀行就是要做這個你們這個事前事中事後的管控的措施是"},{"start":11464.875,"end":11493.04,"text":"那廣東措施內容主要是什麼?我跟您報告假如說我今天會我今天到銀行去匯錢匯到B銀行的某個帳戶那B銀行是收款的這個銀行他就會跟這個這個我要匯款的銀行去確認這個帳戶是不是已經被其他人已經有有同樣的設定是約定轉帳若有很多設定就表示這個帳戶有可能是人頭帳戶那就要通報之後就可能告誡我不要再匯款好那等於說在3月有兩個新的措施一個是人頭帳戶"},{"start":11494.8,"end":11522.681,"text":"然後一個是這個約定轉帳那我是希望啦先解決這個人頭帳戶約定轉帳的問題希望能夠把詐騙問題再解決最後30秒再請教一下這個在你們報告裡面第8頁有提到這個是有關於這個另外一個啦證券投資信託及顧問法這是關於這個網路廣告的事情你們說在Meta是在6月底可以完成系統的調整落實投資廣告實名制"},{"start":11523.598,"end":11551.654,"text":"那請問一下除了這個Meta之外那Google呢?應該都是六月底Google已經有了Google其實它已經有實施實名制那Meta是說他們要修改系統所以六月底會上線實名制所以Google已經好了已經有實施實名制了那Meta到六月底看你們的報告以為是說這個Meta六月底然後Google還沒有處理"},{"start":11554.072,"end":11572.262,"text":"如果照政局提供的資訊是Google已經有完成了我在最後主席我再借一分鐘就是說當然你們現在打仗無法通過然後這個有關這個約定轉帳然後人頭帳戶的事情有在處理但是我還是要提醒主委就是說現在虛擬貨幣有可能成為詐騙集團的新歡"},{"start":11576.789,"end":11594.49,"text":"就是說這個未來我們針對這個很多這個虛擬貨幣現在都成為這個詐騙集團人頭問題那他們都是說我是個人幣商那個人幣商呢這個檢警查到之後呢就這個個人幣商呢到現在呢行政裁罰了事"},{"start":11595.492,"end":11613.87,"text":"所以現在很多詐騙集團交戰守則就是說你被抓到你就是個人避傷對相關的交易不知情、償貨不起訴這跟過去人頭貨的情況相當類似所以我是建議是不是在虛擬貨幣這方面還是要有一個管理的專法出來"},{"start":11614.946,"end":11627.347,"text":"有關跟委員報告我們會朝訂專法的方向努力另外也建議洗房法增加一個個人避傷或是境外避傷都要就是這種避傷要在洗房法登記的這個制度了"},{"start":11627.773,"end":11628.153,"text":"王世堅委員"},{"start":11659.128,"end":11666.252,"text":"謝謝主席我請金管委員、黃主委跟銀行局長、保險局長還有保險局局長各位午安好"},{"start":11679.085,"end":11706.887,"text":"黃主委你學有專精我也跟你初步談過我先不跟你談我倒是想先看看銀行局長保險局長的廬山真面目了這個古有羅賓漢、廖天丁、傑富、紀平真有銀行局、保險局、傑平、紀富莫名其妙"},{"start":11710.027,"end":11734.068,"text":"銀行應該善盡保護存款戶他們要善盡這個職責才對結果不是銀行局、保險局竟然任命這些銀行、金融公司、保險公司"},{"start":11737.168,"end":11747.062,"text":"我不客氣講四個字堅守自大用客戶的資料各自收刮這些菜籃族"},{"start":11754.375,"end":11780.232,"text":"上班族小資族媽媽班收掛他們辛苦的血換錢要他們買基金所謂幫他們理財基金債券大賺手續費然後我不曉得銀行局保險局你們到底管理的怎麼樣我待會意義跟你們講一些例子看看你們是怎麼幹這個事情的"},{"start":11780.936,"end":11809.304,"text":"任命他們收刮辛苦的小老百姓這幾年來社會財富兩極化那麼有錢的越有錢就算啦多數的市民不但因為兩極化的結果財富大家縮水不打緊這幾年疫情的關係又通貨膨脹小市民過的生活是非常的辛苦"},{"start":11810.758,"end":11834.83,"text":"結果你看看這些金控公司這14家金控公司啊除了那個不漲進的星光以外另外13家賺了3652億3652億喔最多的佔600多億平均下來平均都大概賺百億以上啦天啊他們大賺數百億啊"},{"start":11841.499,"end":11859.107,"text":"我想保險局跟銀行局你們很清楚嘛光是這些手續費占他們的收入一年、七年啊手續費2598億、2600億是多天啊好了那你們管理得怎麼樣好好的管理大家沒話講"},{"start":11872.287,"end":11890.391,"text":"照說銷售這些金融產品最重要產品條件風險說明結果呢結果我光舉這幾年你們的資料裡面光2019到2023年被檢舉金融商品的爭議1390件之多1390件喔"},{"start":11898.891,"end":11911.983,"text":"那這在金融消費者保護法裡面很清楚啊要充分揭露風險那麼不充分揭露風險的話有爭議的話要處罰款30萬以上到1000萬結果你們處的怎麼樣兩位局長你聽好金融商品"},{"start":11925.509,"end":11947.885,"text":"說明正義,這樣子經過評議以後,申訴人有理由的、有理由的、佔的,被你們精挑細選篩檢之後,說他有理由的也有97件。結果啊,連一件都沒有送到金管會去採取。"},{"start":11950.887,"end":11962.954,"text":"這個是你們的評議委員會他們評議出來的1390件說至少這97件有重大爭議結果連一件都沒有經過你們金管會採取那金管會採取了什麼有啦你們公開的資料說銀行業金融商品說明爭議被裁罰的結果"},{"start":11980.078,"end":11988.983,"text":"這麼多年來三屆一年賺手續費2600億這三屆總共罰款多少從800萬1800萬到3000萬罰不到6000萬所以我覺得你這個莫名其妙很明顯的你們在袒護這些金控公司這些銀行還有包括袒護這些授權公司"},{"start":12010.455,"end":12014.716,"text":"很清楚嘛這就是典型的結皮濟膚所以我想看看你們兩個廬山真面目啊沒想到你們長得是這麼斯文啦齁所以外表往往是騙人的啦外表往往是騙人的那好啦我們再講到說這些手續費"},{"start":12038.523,"end":12065.1,"text":"去年2598億的手續費裡面前五名就佔了一半前五名這五家我姑且就不把名字講出來啦這些都是在金控業、銀行業裡面也是我們消費大眾存款戶大家都覺得很有爭議的啦怪怪的啦覺得這幾家金控跟銀行都怪怪的"},{"start":12067.322,"end":12086.51,"text":"結果在你們銀行局的眼中啊他們是乖寶寶天啊這幾家我剛剛講的啊光手續費2600億結果這麼多年四五年下來你財閥三屆財閥加起來總計不到6000萬這個金額啊"},{"start":12098.837,"end":12123.32,"text":"我剛剛講光去年大賺3652億的這13家金控而言那是不痛不癢不痛不癢那麼銀行不只金控公司不只幹這些事他們"},{"start":12124.892,"end":12149.061,"text":"培養的一些理專專員啦當然這些有的也是都學有專精很認真沒有錯啦還竟然也是一群害群之嘛理專還會A錢還會挪用資金天啊結果好不容易你們查到冰山的一角查到挪用資金A錢10億10億喔"},{"start":12153.973,"end":12182.571,"text":"好不容易也是你們三拖四拖三堂會審之後輕輕的就罰八千七百萬就這樣子結案其他的禮專A群跟挪用資金我相信還有只是你們就是比較遲鈍比較遲鈍所以我搞不懂那麼我總結一句就是說"},{"start":12184.599,"end":12194.462,"text":"這麼多年來金管會你們主導下的銀行局、保險局你們財閥金融業逐年減少逐年減少過去幾年2019年也不過4年前總計你們還財閥各項財閥加起來還有3億一直到去年只剩1億"},{"start":12209.164,"end":12226.807,"text":"只剩1億我不懂為什麼調皮搗蛋的這些金控公司跟銀行們突然之間變成乖寶寶嗎?變得那麼好嗎?我不相信至少多數的存款公司不相信那麼"},{"start":12228.237,"end":12247.425,"text":"我在講金融消費者保護法裡面講的應該告知產品風險跟產品條件這個部分只有告沒有知我們訪問了一些蔡蘭族上班族們他們遇到的共同的問題就是說這個"},{"start":12251.052,"end":12276.352,"text":"都是啊 理專經常都是一句話就是說 主管要求例行公事 例行公事等一下我去準備資料 這個放給你看 放那一段就叫做告知那一段影片我普遍問起來 這個針對告知風險都已經要簽字了才給他放一下這個大概不到一分鐘的一個短影片 58秒 58秒"},{"start":12279.602,"end":12299.972,"text":"就我講的只有告沒有知好啦不好意思主席是不是在讓我講我講另外一個問題齁那還有保險局不要在旁邊高興這不是只講金控公司跟銀行而有壽險業一樣啊壽險業每年收取我們社會大眾超過多的時候3兆都超過2兆以上的保險費收入結果他們現在"},{"start":12311.316,"end":12335.234,"text":"這麼多的收入他們野心還是一樣還在他們還販賣投資型保單投資型保單這些也是出了一些問題我今天時間關係改天再跟你保險局談我最後要談一個問題就是說你們金融你們罰的那些錢竟然進到哪裡進到你們的小金庫金融管理基金會"},{"start":12340.543,"end":12361.079,"text":"叫做金融監督機、金融管理機還在一個小金庫不受國會監督然後你們出國啦所謂的考察啦教育訓練啦什麼一大堆所以主席我強烈建立金管會這樣子的小金庫我跟你講任何公家的花費必也證明乎"},{"start":12362.26,"end":12379.811,"text":"光明磊落嘛你要出國接受再教育你要考察正式的編預算不要搞一個說罰金收入把這個當成一個基金當成你們的小金庫最後都會被人家講原來罰這一些啊這個罰去當你們的私房錢"},{"start":12384.433,"end":12391.598,"text":"這是不對的任何一毛錢的花費該花要花但是從國家預算下去編列可不可以?"},{"start":12414.033,"end":12433.47,"text":"其實是歸國庫的但是你罰款是進到那裡嗎不是嗎沒有沒有不到那個基金帳戶裡面去沒有到基金帳戶是歸國庫的好那你把這個帳戶我知道這個是一個小金庫我知道這個是一個小金庫不好意思可能我沒有給您報告清楚很抱歉我們再給您報告好謝謝王世堅委員的質詢謝謝主席謝謝接著我們請李彥秀委員質詢"},{"start":12444.91,"end":12448.155,"text":"是,我可以請主委有請黃主委是,委員午安"},{"start":12455.905,"end":12474.039,"text":"主委辛苦了剛才王世堅委員質詢的消費者告跟知其實我覺得確實我們要花一點心思來去做這一塊接下來其實我要問的問題其實也是長期來包括上星期你到我辦公室來的時候我跟你溝通過的就是我們現在詐騙的問題"},{"start":12476.381,"end":12490.813,"text":"詐騙的議題我相信在臺灣社會的民眾包括我們民間基金會、我們草根影響力、文教基金會委託TVBS去年做的民調當中我們都有看到超過五成的民眾對於政府打詐的表現事實上是不滿意的超過八成的民眾認為臺灣現在的法律對於詐騙犯的刑責"},{"start":12499.48,"end":12506.206,"text":"事實上是太輕然後超過七成的民眾擔心詐騙的犯罪氮濫會造成我們現在的國安問題好那主委我就從你這一次的今晚會的業務報告當中我有觀察到有幾個數據我們來看這些數據包括112年我們對於詐騙案的攔截件數是11300件"},{"start":12524.122,"end":12541.618,"text":"比照一百一十一年我們是一百一十二年我們是增加了三千三百二十一件那我們一百一十二年攔截的金額是七十六億左右七十五點八九億那比一百一十一年增加了三十三點四八億元"},{"start":12542.779,"end":12560.247,"text":"主委這些數據呈現代表的意義就是說我們攔截的件數增加42%攔截的金額增加79%但是在你的工作報告當中我看到你是用成效卓著這四個字"},{"start":12561.691,"end":12577.685,"text":"來去表現出我們現在你攔截的件數也好比112年比111跟112我們攔截的金額也好件數也好看起來都比較多你用成效著住這四個字"},{"start":12579.146,"end":12605.357,"text":"我個人是有一點意見啦你個人覺得這樣的數字你滿意嗎?報告委員那個我跟您兩個部分報告第一個我們是用顯著我們用左著因為比例是高一點但是我跟您報告您指示的沒有錯了其實詐騙有很多界面這邊跟您報告的第一項只是從臨櫃假如我的客戶去臨櫃我被要做一些事情被銀行堵到了這個部分可是還有很多是轉帳"},{"start":12607.419,"end":12626.633,"text":"約定轉帳,這些都不在這個績效之內的。好,主委,用成效著住,顯著也好,著住也好,我覺得這些數字背後代表的意義是我們臺灣現在詐騙犯罪的問題越來越嚴重,你同意我的說法嗎?"},{"start":12627.814,"end":12637.183,"text":"其實金額件數非常多這個母體這麼大相對的看起來你金額非常的多但是另外一層代表意義是我們現在詐騙越來越嚴重而我們金管會自己統計的數據從去年4月到11月當中"},{"start":12643.268,"end":12650.214,"text":"我們的數據也顯示說包括我們我先講一下警政署的統計在2020年的我們的詐騙的件數是2.3萬件2022年2.9萬件2023年從1月到11月總共是3.5萬件所以我們的金額"},{"start":12662.583,"end":12683.87,"text":"每一年創新高從42.5億元到去年的11月是79億元創歷史的新高那今晚會自己的數字也顯示出4月到11月我們總共有15511件非法的投資廣告平均每個月有將近2000件的詐騙廣告被檢取主委"},{"start":12685.411,"end":12705.405,"text":"這個數字其實也代表說我們現在在法規上雖然看起來我們金管會的督導很用心但是我們犯罪的數字事實上是非常的氾濫所以我剛才也看到前幾位委員的質詢當中也有提到我們目前金管會有兩個手段"},{"start":12706.767,"end":12723.027,"text":"一個是在網路上我們可以要求競速的下架在這些平台當中競速的下架另外一個就是實名制的管理這兩個手段對於詐騙的氾濫是不是最有效的工具"},{"start":12726.295,"end":12744.635,"text":"我先跟您報告我們以後不會用成效顯著這四個字我們會虛心接受委員的指導那你就代表現在詐騙氾濫非常嚴重也難怪我們對於詐騙的問題不滿意政府處理的不滿意嘛這個是事實嘛我們兩個不用在這邊爭辯嘛那另外就是"},{"start":12746.565,"end":12762.765,"text":"實名制是一個重點那當然我覺得金融教育也很重要就是要投資人確實要特別注意這個風險跟利潤其實是是存在共同存在的好那主委實名制這一件事情其實我們行政院"},{"start":12763.888,"end":12792.051,"text":"跟妳這邊努力了一年左右的時間我從工作報告目前Google跟Meta今年1月我也看到它已經答應要落實實名制那Google我從妳的網路上妳的業務報告當中我看起來它是沒有答應但是妳現在我剛聽到前主委剛剛法院委員我們政局同仁說Google應該已經有同意了是Meta它的系統改到6月了Meta改到6月份那Google呢"},{"start":12793.171,"end":12794.793,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":12811.035,"end":12838.808,"text":"可能沒有特別去提到這個但是我們跟Google Meta溝通的結果Google已經開始實施那Meta是因為說它整個系統要改全球的系統所以Google已經全部實名制從什麼時候開始應該是之前我們修法完之後沒多久它應該就配合改過了我們沒有特別去問他們實施的日期"},{"start":12841.445,"end":12869.526,"text":"好 那所以是Meta 6月份好 呃 主委 無論是實名制也好或盡速的我們發現到有詐騙的這個網路上的廣告也好我們都應該盡速的要求他下架現在Google要求是 呃 多少 一天之內一天之內要下架 如果沒有 我們會通報警政署那他要下架 那如果不下架就會被警政署裁罰我們有沒有裁罰過"},{"start":12871.056,"end":12876.181,"text":"因為他通常一天就下架了就沒有被裁罰因為裁罰是內政部警政署在處理"},{"start":12877.881,"end":12900.797,"text":"主委你認為就是說沒有財閥一天之內沒有財閥但是你也知道就是說這就是貓抓老鼠因為有一個假帳號也好你下架一個他馬上又有數萬個數千個在背後stand by等著這就是現在詐騙手法日新月異所以我不知道你對於一天下架你滿不滿意以我的廣告經驗我們看到包括"},{"start":12901.898,"end":12916.117,"text":"這些知名的媒體人包括陳文茜也好、謝金河也好、余美人也好包括曹金城都有人用他們的名義在網路上、在臉書上、在IG上做一些詐騙的行為廣告"},{"start":12919.087,"end":12933.094,"text":"這些都有而且我算了一下就是說這些推波的量其實出現了至少都半個月以上我的辦公室他們稍微整理一下都超過半個月以上那又不知道增加了多少被害人在裡頭所以我要強調的就是說我覺得"},{"start":12934.915,"end":12959.335,"text":"源頭管理非常非常的重要無論是Google或Meta的管理上我覺得一天是不是一天之內或者是接下來他有沒有其他的我們高風險的我們有什麼樣的處理的機制我覺得應該要想辦法落實詐騙是臺灣人民心中的痛每片的每一分錢都是我們民眾的我們民眾非常辛苦血汗錢我希望在這一塊"},{"start":12960.376,"end":12989.337,"text":"金管會上能夠更努力的在做守門人的角色另外您到我辦公室那一天有提到說我們現在行政院針對詐騙有成立一個專案小組上次您提到政委在處理因為這是跨部會的問題有一位政委負責督導什麼時候這個案子會出來我們可以看到我們現在民進黨政府從金管到警政署跨部會的有更具體的合作方向"},{"start":12990.222,"end":13005.664,"text":"有包括現在規劃要可能在考慮是不是打詐專法都是目前在研究的方向所以打詐專法什麼時候會推出來內容是什麼我跟委員報告因為這個不是金管會負責主政的可能要從可能是其他部會"},{"start":13007.587,"end":13029.356,"text":"雖然不是你主政但是你在裡面的角色也非常重要我們一起參與提供意見所以我不知道最後主政的會是哪個單位因為行政院可能也還沒有決定主責單位是誰你認為不是你說不定最後就是你所以主委我要建議的是它是一個跨部會的合作我們後面一起來努力打仗的問題"},{"start":13030.416,"end":13058.732,"text":"但是我覺得每一個人的角色不管是誰主政都非常重要所以我非常期待這個打詐的專法可以及早提出來那主要的內容是什麼我也希望有機會跟各部會做進行更多的溝通後面的我們的監理單位相關的我們希望有機會做更多的互動也提出更多的建議這樣子後續的打詐我覺得會有更具體的成效好嗎"},{"start":13059.292,"end":13069.701,"text":"是,我們會不定期跟委員請議,聽聽您的召見。好,謝謝主委。謝謝。謝謝李燕秀委員的質詢。接著我們請謝玉鳳委員質詢,提醒列行委員的時間是5加1。好,謝謝主席。我想要請我們金管會的黃主委。有請黃主委。"},{"start":13089.017,"end":13105.474,"text":"謝謝委員,恭喜連任,謝謝。我想你作為任期最久的主委,你是不是幫自己打個分數?我跟委員報告,我不太替自己打分數,我想大家去評論,我覺得我還有很多要努力的地方,謝謝。所以你幾分?"},{"start":13107.376,"end":13111.582,"text":"我自己自律一定督促自己要進步再進步,但是分數由外界去評論。"},{"start":13125.6,"end":13153.395,"text":"所以你不願意幫自己打分數剛才已經有非常多的委員認為金管會在很多方面尤其是在詐騙部分沒有辦法有具體的作為我想請問你喔你為什麼我看到你的報告裡面你認為金管會阻難詐騙的金額是成績顯著"},{"start":13154.756,"end":13179.488,"text":"那可是詐騙問題是一個跨部會的問題啊你認為真正的問題是在哪裡呢?因為民眾的感受的確改善的程度不深啊,是不是?的確因為整個詐騙變成一個國際的趨勢專業的手法政府機關在因應上的確有很多地方要再加努力"},{"start":13180.728,"end":13200.471,"text":"你覺得是哪一個部分的問題?是在電信的部分呢?還是在檢警調?還是其他相關的問題?你身為這個系統性問題裡面的一環,你看的一定比外界的民眾清楚啊,是不是?"},{"start":13201.343,"end":13229.139,"text":"法務委員其實坦白說跨部會大家都很努力了但是產生詐騙的這種界面有很多嘛金流是一個嘛那電信啊你能處理的是不是只有金流我們處理的是金流跟金融知識的這些教育部分主詐跟部分的市詐主詐部分就是屬於透過銀行的臨櫃或者說是轉帳這部分我們截阻金流"},{"start":13229.738,"end":13249.352,"text":"那所謂的網路詐騙或名人詐騙這個部分你認為為什麼沒有辦法有效的遏止?那這個其中的原因在哪?我跟您報告那個投資詐騙因為我們已經去年修《投信投顧法》70-1條對於在固定的社群網站平台上去給他下架"},{"start":13249.972,"end":13269.448,"text":"但是還有很多名人的這些詐騙案他有的不是在那個平台上比方在其他的社群媒體上這個其實需要大家一起在做努力的那其實我們也都包括我們這邊的交易所每天早上都在去搜尋這些網路上這些疑似詐騙的問題"},{"start":13271.4,"end":13300.153,"text":"所以你認為,照你的說法看來,你認為問題不在你這裡啊?沒有,我覺得...我一直在問你說,整個系統性的問題到底在哪裡?我們如果都不知道問題在哪裡,我們怎麼樣解決這問題?報告委員,其實我絕對承擔金管會該負的責任,不然的話我不會用11月的報告跟委員報告我們在打造方面做了哪些事情。我絕對覺得那是我們要該負的責任,可是我要跟委員報告,這是一個基本的問題。"},{"start":13301.534,"end":13319.584,"text":"銀行要去做任何阻詐的事情它第一個必須要有法據第二它也不能夠影響正常的企業跟個人金融中介的功能這兩個不同的價值是需要去做前衡的就一方面如果我為了限制打詐所有的金流轉帳都嚴格限制它"},{"start":13320.504,"end":13334.374,"text":"更長的時間這個也會影響到金融經濟的發展所以這裡面的法據還有整個做一個權衡這都是我們我想在跨部會討論的時候要去做權衡的再跟您報告還有其實剛才"},{"start":13336.408,"end":13354.159,"text":"也有委員提到金融消費者的保護的方面其實前面委員講的是你財閥的金額不高其實我知道所有的金融業者他們能夠請最好的法律顧問所以在法律方面就法制面而言"},{"start":13354.939,"end":13378.384,"text":"絕對不會有很重大的問題可是重大的問題是在於消費者對於金融商品的不了解以及對於所有投資契約的不了解那所以怎麼樣子減少這樣子認知上面的落差以及減少所謂我們數位的落差也好以及中高零金融消費者"},{"start":13379.864,"end":13406.409,"text":"對於這些投資商品以及數位落差我相信這個部分是金管會我認為你該做而沒做的不應該只就法律層面而是應該就整個消費者跟投資在怎麼樣的認知上面能夠減少這個落差才能有效的遏止金融消費者的所有的問題啊是不是"},{"start":13407.233,"end":13431.361,"text":"委員您這番指示其實您真是專家我跟您報告為什麼要做金融監理一個就是資訊不對稱就是一個就是系統風險所以資訊不對稱本來就是金管會成立的目的之一您看看今天我寫的報告我們有做多少金融的教育跟知識至於說前面委員說罰款金額逐漸降低我跟委員報告我們現在財閥不是只有罰款我們有停職我們有解職"},{"start":13432.501,"end":13445.772,"text":"我們有減薪我們還有扣資本額上禮拜我們做了一個禮專的那個財閥他扣他資本額是30多億喔所以其實我們的財閥不能只是從罰款的金額去看他的高低"},{"start":13447.149,"end":13466.885,"text":"今天是第一次委員會再跟昭緯借一分鐘我想了解一下現在我們國內的超額儲蓄創新高不只是企業部門還有我們的個人部門也是創新高那你看在超額儲蓄創新高的時候會不會"},{"start":13468.362,"end":13490.22,"text":"就是說我們的成交量股市的成交量因為大家不願意為什麼會有超額儲蓄他不願意直接投資嘛國內的投資的前景不看好的情況下可能就做金融投資那股市呢股市有沒有可能未來的日交易量你看是多少4千億還是5千億"},{"start":13491.894,"end":13512.207,"text":"沒有我們今年預估的每天的交易量比去年有增加了那其實主要也是因為整個包括零股的交易投資人現在很多年輕人願意投入臺灣的股市對臺灣的資本市場有信心所以我覺得這後面有有他基本上理性的判斷在裡面當然股市還是多風險還是要注意風險的"},{"start":13513.274,"end":13537.497,"text":"那今年股市會不會上兩萬點?報告委員其實監理機關不太適合去評估這個到多少點到今天是上漲那上兩萬點會不會是一個風險的地方?你講啊,是不是?報告委員其實我們你金融監理機關就是評估風險的單位可是我們不會去評估這個股價到多少這個不是監理機關那我是說如果到兩萬點是不是一個風險點?"},{"start":13538.658,"end":13551.983,"text":"要看這個股市到兩萬點後面的理由是什麼?是有具體的利多的消息、正面的消息、資本面的改變?還是只是因為資金充裕的問題?那如果只是資金充裕的問題,會不會是一個過熱點?"},{"start":13557.289,"end":13577.276,"text":"這個熱跟不熱其實不是監理機關可以去隨便去做不好意思我知道您是很審慎的問我可是我不能夠隨便就這樣子做判斷還是需要有一些分析免許會後可以跟您再多做請益好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝謝一鋒委員的質詢接著我們請葛如君委員質詢"},{"start":13593.905,"end":13620.68,"text":"主席有請金管會黃主委備詢好有請黃主委主委您好今日特別到財委會是想就目前金管會對國外投資的一些做法也是民眾非常關心的議題來和您做討論在資訊傳播日益發達的數位社會裡頭民眾對於海外投資的興趣日漸濃厚"},{"start":13621.681,"end":13627.625,"text":"根據建商工會的統計,國人投資海外市場可以說是超高速加溫,2023年的全市場副委託戶數高達465萬戶,新增戶數85萬戶,較2022年新增75萬戶,成長13%。"},{"start":13639.413,"end":13665.521,"text":"顯示有不少新血加入整個市場的副委託交易量高達4.48兆元台幣兩年成長了21%其中股市交易集中在每股交易量年增15%佔比70%金管會顯然也體察民意了解到我們的國人對於多元投資商品的需求因此在113年度的施政計畫當中提到了"},{"start":13666.421,"end":13694.997,"text":"開放合適的銀行針對高資產客群的理財需求提供多元化金融商品擴大金融業務的範疇開放證券期貨等多元商品的投資管道來滿足多元化商品的需求短短一頁裡面就出現很多多元這兩個字對此我要向金管會表達肯定但是面對已經被國際主流市場接受的新選項尤其又是臺灣最熟悉的科技數位類別的選項"},{"start":13695.777,"end":13721.398,"text":"政府作為可以說是背道而馳保守逃避而且沒有創新跟你們所說的多元根本就不一樣根據國內金融業者所做的調查報告顯示國人對於虛擬資產越來越熟悉接受度越來越高若以1為最低10為最高來看調查結果顯示無論是否持有虛擬資產民眾顯然對投資虛擬資產有一定程度的意願在1到10分裡面已經超過5了"},{"start":13722.239,"end":13751.122,"text":"而且買過的人還會越來越想買越買越多今年1月10號美國證券交易委員會SEC宣布批准了比特幣ETF現貨交易1月10號一共有11檔比特幣ETF申請全部獲得通過這對於喜愛投資美股或虛擬資產的民眾來說是一大樂事但是很遺憾的國內券商在1月23號發出公告表示收到金管會的通知"},{"start":13751.582,"end":13774.096,"text":"只能透過副委託賣出連結虛擬貨幣的現貨以及期貨相關商業不可以新增委託買進受到影響的由美國及香港市場約21檔ETF我知道目前國內的法規不允許比特幣ETF自己在台上市但是禁止國內的民眾用副委託官方推薦的方式來購買"},{"start":13775.057,"end":13787.037,"text":"美國比特幣ETF在投資界引起了不小的反彈想請主委間斷說明目前禁止民眾付委託購買美國比特幣ETF的原因到底是什麼?"},{"start":13788.201,"end":13813.214,"text":"現在的負委託我們允許券商能夠提供投資人投資負委託的商品都是政企局核定過的比特幣ETF為什麼不能買因為它的波動力高沒有內涵價值我想大家都有時候能想一句話不好意思我打斷您投資一定有風險基金投資有賺有賠如果價格波動大且風險高可以作為禁止理由"},{"start":13813.954,"end":13828.095,"text":"金管會是不是應該定期公布各種副委託美股、衍射性金融商品的投資風險,並且根據排名將風險高的逐一禁止呢?美商超微的股票在前三個月漲了200%,是不是也要禁止啊?"},{"start":13828.971,"end":13854.405,"text":"委員這分兩點跟您報告第一點我想您是專家虛擬資產沒有內涵價值第二點我們沒有說完全不行我們請券商工會在半年之內就4月底之前提出如果副委託要納入現貨ETF它的配套措施跟您的方案比特幣ETF嗎半年內嗎是好比特幣沒有內涵價值這個我想請教主委這是您的主觀認定還是做過調查報告"},{"start":13855.525,"end":13878.889,"text":"內涵價值是大家有沒有做調查報告?各國監理機關都是這樣認為的如果有做調查報告的話各國監理所以他認為他同意啊所以他上了ETF、ACC認定啊報告委員打擾您美國證管會不是自願他是法院裁決他的禁止是無效的我想這個是不應該是做主觀認定的齁如果有做調查報告希望一個月內交到我們的辦公室可以嗎?"},{"start":13880.492,"end":13885.096,"text":"因為比特幣的產生就跟實體經濟沒有關係這是您的個人看法還是調查這是從理論跟文獻中我們應該依據您的個人看法來決定民眾要買什麼不買什麼嗎我們會後跟委員請教謝謝好希望我們可以得到相關的報告為什麼對不起這個主委我為什麼這麼這個情緒上這個非常非常的投入這樣的一個議題"},{"start":13907.032,"end":13927.383,"text":"是因為大家真的非常有興趣但是如果我們沒有一個官方負委託購買的過程跟方法反而會讓許多想買比特幣ETF的民眾翻牆透過海外的券商來購買如此政府更加難以掌握民眾對美國比特幣ETF的投資情形"},{"start":13928.323,"end":13952.327,"text":"券商也少了手續費的收入,民眾如果跟國外券商發生了投資糾紛,還要自行承擔風險,甚至可能會不慎掉入詐騙的陷阱,毫無保障。這對政府跟民眾來說可以說是三輸甚至是全輸。我想金管會直接粗暴禁止,是不是有過度限制人民基本自由的嫌疑?退一步來講,如果直接禁止,"},{"start":13952.887,"end":13976.634,"text":"我想我們非常期待主委這邊來提出相關的報告同時也告訴我們到底解禁多久之後可能會開放否則接下來假設虛擬貨幣ETF越來越多元前兩天又上了一檔以太幣的現貨ETF可能也要出現金管會要如何因應我想我最後一個問題今天這個第一次質詢拜託也再借一分鐘主席謝謝"},{"start":13977.774,"end":13985.281,"text":"我想假設民眾真的很想購買,現在意願如此高漲,主委會建議民眾透過什麼樣的管道購買?委員我跟您報告,也許我講的話您不會很高興。包括美國、新加坡這些監理機關其實對民眾投入虛擬資產都是持相對保留跟審慎的態度的。"},{"start":14001.391,"end":14025.17,"text":"好,我想相關保留跟審慎的態度我們希望透過調查報告來瞭解而不是主委一個人的主觀意見沒有,這是其他監理機關包括MIS跟美國的OCC的監理機關的首長都對外做這種宣示的好,我想禁止副委託不是最好的做法金管會應該保障民眾投資國外虛擬貨幣ETF的權益尤其是合規合法的虛擬貨幣ETF的權益"},{"start":14026.511,"end":14031.697,"text":"謝謝主席、謝謝主委。謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長"},{"start":14051.929,"end":14079.449,"text":"委員恭喜連任 辛苦了啊 恭喜什麼連任 喔 政長 這是很久以前的事情因為我到選後一直沒有見過你嘛所以第一次見面跟您報告選舉是一時的 但是這個行政、立法互相尊重是永久的這個沒有什麼上對下的問題大家是 努力為公 為國、為民服務這個選舉是一時的那選舉讓你得到這個位置你應該更謙卑面對你的權利"},{"start":14080.794,"end":14109.002,"text":"你要思考怎麼樣為國家人民謀福利而不是為了你個人聲量隨便胡說八道那個我個人最近常常接到一些銀行的這個查詢電話他說按照金管會的指示我必須要查詢你個人的目前的帳戶的這個基本資料的查核通常一般的民眾接到電話說哇這次是詐騙他第一個就是要按照金管會的指示然後要問我個人資料"},{"start":14110.094,"end":14111.435,"text":"請問是針對我們比較特殊的職業還是全國民眾都可能接到這種電話?"},{"start":14126.841,"end":14151.747,"text":"根據《洗鹹防治法》的規定,像您啊,或是我們政務官,就PEP啊,定期都會收到銀行,其實我倒沒有收過電話,都是書面,要我們填去現在的資料。我記得兩封電話耶,我比較早,有沒有收到電話?奇怪,為什麼是針對我,有沒有針對信啊?還是剛好這個,我剛好是這個電腦選到的。"},{"start":14155.041,"end":14181.746,"text":"這個部分還是要有一個統一的規定我會擔心是不是詐騙電話因為我問了我都各知委員我跟您報告我的瞭解應該都是用書面很少會用電話那我們回去洽銀行工會瞭解一下是不是有銀行是用電話來問我書面我的這些辦公室應該會給我知道我完全不知道另外這部分再請主委瞭解一下"},{"start":14182.662,"end":14208.009,"text":"就是說我上禮拜召開記者會針對這個網路詐騙這個詐騙的這個件數跟被詐騙的金額2023年比去年還更高詐騙金額還更高所以代表說這個越打越旺的感覺是不是有這種感覺如果你真的成效你跟這個刑事警察局你跟這個相關的單位跟這個NCC跟數位部"},{"start":14208.829,"end":14234.459,"text":"都有相關的這個聯繫有一個平台打砸辦公室都花功能的話照理說這個件數會降低這個詐騙的進度也會應該減少結果是增加的所以這個網路平台扮演重要的角色比如說我個人的這個臉書也沒有那麼好用我去跟這個網路去反映去檢舉結果這個時程大矮完全沒有任何的回應"},{"start":14236.011,"end":14263.726,"text":"馬上打電話給刑事警察局兩個小時就下架所以很多的民眾不曉得之後我們165這個刑事警察局有這個功能有這個服務立刻你如果有這種被這個網路平台你被冒用透過刑事警察局這個平台他能夠發揮更大的嚇阻效果那一般民眾去他可能認為說這個不要沒關係可能認為說這個你可能是個人的問題"},{"start":14265.515,"end":14285.416,"text":"所以他連處理都沒處理所以這個時候你這個主管機關就要發揮你的嚇阻的功能你不能只是說去找他們溝通你要找他們喝咖啡喝咖啡不是政企局也不是什麼其他的這個另外我再提到這個有價證券的投資的這些假廣告的問題"},{"start":14286.684,"end":14308.947,"text":"同樣這部分主管機關是金管會的政協局政協局也應該去把這個網路的平台這些業者你要找來喝咖啡以主委的高度說你如果不嚴加審查的話你可能會有相關的刑責或可能我們會對你做相關的這個行政採取阿你會害怕阿主委"},{"start":14309.898,"end":14311.799,"text":"主委您的看法是?其實也是因為需要有一個法據所以去年才會修《投信投估法》70-1條"},{"start":14335.39,"end":14337.312,"text":"但是你如果是用有價證券投資假廣告,這也應該是跟你們有關係吧?"},{"start":14350.177,"end":14370.387,"text":"所以我們適用這個部分所以要讓他下架才避免更多人上當或者是損失這個金錢所以這當然是主管業務可以的話不只是政協局局長你主委你可以邀請這個平台說你這個事先審查的機制竟沒有落實我們這個通訊投顧法這個相關的規定"},{"start":14374.071,"end":14377.132,"text":"打砸辦公室也好我也要求打砸辦公室人力、預算、規模都要增加"},{"start":14402.816,"end":14404.176,"text":"在今天的報告中我們特別有提出來在這個"},{"start":14433.103,"end":14443.172,"text":"在33頁特別有強調我們要督導工會將這個OTP納入這個相關的時間到這個我必須遵守這個這個質詢的這個會議的規則我作為這個這個新晉立委的這個榜樣所以這個提供書面資料給我時間到我就應該要要這個尊重不能暢所欲言講到這天分地安這個"},{"start":14460.546,"end":14462.529,"text":"立法委員致歉,新市委也要尊重行政部門。謝謝!"},{"start":14490.517,"end":14505.823,"text":"謝謝主席是不是麻煩有請金管會主委以及投資人及期貨交易保護中心看董事長或總經理誰業務就誰上來都可以不用客氣好謝謝委員午安有請黃主委董事長是張新帝"},{"start":14516.256,"end":14532.537,"text":"兩位時間的關係不一一問候大家非常關心有關於打造的問題去年以前還開論壇希望我們的行政機關在前面先做好管控切斷他們的犯罪工具我相信這個政策方向主委一定是認同的"},{"start":14533.678,"end":14554.613,"text":"我比較關心的是我們依照洗錢防治法授權金管會所訂立的辦法各個金控或是銀行他們必須要出具防治洗錢的內控聲明書這個防治洗錢的內控聲明書基本上是希望他們自我要求自我做好不管是金控法還是銀行法裡面都有相關的規定但我現在的問題是這個內控聲明書有意義嗎?"},{"start":14559.116,"end":14586.434,"text":"有用嗎?我的意思是說假設除了這個內控聲明書但實際上面內機內控一套糊塗的話監管會的應對是什麼?這個我們從內控上面可以處分可以處分洗方法也可以處分可不可以重其重是是重其重好來我們繼續往下看這紙聲明書做出來了以後我們看一下剛剛我不是針對特地的銀行"},{"start":14586.894,"end":14603.723,"text":"但這家銀行戰績太輝煌了所以我特別把他的內控聲明書調出來看每一年的內控聲明書針對內積內控針對房洗房都沒有問題有確實遵守來我們看一下第一線警警他們在辦案的時候看出來的是什麼"},{"start":14605.405,"end":14620.679,"text":"2022年各銀行涉案人頭賬戶的佔比第一名中國信託就有剛剛出具內控聲明書的那一家總共人頭賬戶有上萬個欸佔比是百分之三十欸主委你認為這樣子的內控算有做好嗎?"},{"start":14622.028,"end":14646.802,"text":"所以我們有就相關個案有嚴正的採處這兩個部分齁一個是等到刑事偵查的時候去採處那這個是屬於事後處罰的問題一個是前面針對內機內控的部分到底有沒有做好有沒有採處進行了什麼樣的採處主委你要講的那個例子我知道我們繼續往下看齁"},{"start":14647.998,"end":14667.675,"text":"專家信託他不僅僅是內積內扣沒做好他不是說房子洗錢沒做好內積內扣沒做好他是離譜到什麼他是離譜到自己的行員去參與犯罪組織共同實施詐騙洗錢第一審實施判決出來了判了6年6個月那當然"},{"start":14671.158,"end":14680.873,"text":"泡完了以後法官同時告發說中國信託他也是犯罪行為人這件事情主委你應該認同很離譜吧"},{"start":14682.284,"end":14707.11,"text":"我們覺得不應該發生是 很好 非常好下一頁結果你們在採取的說明書裡面我看到的中國信託他們幹的事情不是只有違反內心內控喔如果是只有防治洗錢的規定沒有做好那個是抽象制度性的問題嘛表示我們市錢預防的功能沒有做好控制沒有做好但"},{"start":14707.97,"end":14719.989,"text":"他是實際上面行員、金融機構行員參與犯咒組織去詐騙、去洗錢但我看了金管會的財主書主委可能認為罰他們兩千萬很重"},{"start":14724.582,"end":14741.246,"text":"我們認為罰他們兩千萬很重但如果以中國信託他們一年的獲利額剛剛四千委員就質詢了嘛光到收手續費的部分就超過四百億了罰個兩千萬會不會痛有沒有用社會有公平但我現在分兩個層次來請教"},{"start":14743.447,"end":14771.93,"text":"第一個層次是這麼嚴重的行為你們為什麼在發財處書的時候相關的事實相關的行為沒有辦法像美國的監理機構一樣具細米以具體的把它寫清楚它是屬於辦理客戶臨過申請調高銀行網路轉帳及ATM提領日限而作業所設缺失嗎是這樣子輕描淡寫就把它的不應該的地方"},{"start":14773.755,"end":14790.86,"text":"可責性的行為這樣子算有充分描述嗎主委我可以跟委員報告第一點就是內容是不是公允詳細我可以接受委員的指導我們會再努力可是重點是因為我跟你交換一個"},{"start":14792.1,"end":14809.938,"text":"想法我沒有在苛責金管會的同仁因為這種立稿的方式我們大概寫了一二十年長的都是這個樣子不是你當主委才變這樣如果是你當主委才變這樣那一定是你的責任嘛但我給金管會的建議是什麼去看一看"},{"start":14811.092,"end":14830.045,"text":"外國的監理機關針對這麼離譜的事情事實是不是把它寫得很清楚他們到底做錯了什麼事情讓社會大眾知道這樣子的採取才有意義嘛第二個部分公罰錢有沒有用罰錢其實是罰誰的錢是罰全體股東的錢嘛"},{"start":14832.307,"end":14854.139,"text":"但是那些出具內資內控聲明書的人從法針到集合到封控到最後高階的經理人每一個人都簽了字結果根本沒有做好嘛我現在講的還不是只有這個個案喔從通案到個案比例最高一年一萬多個人頭賬戶"},{"start":14855.88,"end":14880.436,"text":"具體的個案目前被抓到的有銀行員參與詐騙只罰2000萬能夠有效後組嗎?主委你覺得呢?委員所以我們今年1月14號我們通過銀行責任地圖不是說將來發生問題只要罰錢明年1月1號就會實施相關連帶的主管如果你的責任是督導內控防止洗錢發生問題你都要負連帶的責任是!"},{"start":14881.216,"end":14897.851,"text":"現在的銀行法61條之一對於內機內控如果沒有做好的話那顯然什麼?顯然不是只有罰錢嗎?他本來61條之一是不是授權金管會可以做下面的這些處理部分停止部分的業務啊?有"},{"start":14898.998,"end":14916.645,"text":"對嗎?是都可以考量那以協助詐騙集團這麼嚴重出的內控聲明書明顯虛偽不實就沒做到嘛只罰兩千萬我請金管會回去再思考一下再思考一下是不是未來在面對"},{"start":14918.425,"end":14939.753,"text":"因為銀行他們前面的內機內控沒有做好甚至有參與詐騙不是只有罰錢了事該負責任的人員同時要就責主委這個方向您贊不贊成我們會朝委員指導的方向去研究OK好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢接著我們請游浩委員游浩委員游浩委員不在接著我們請林楚明委員質詢"},{"start":14956.015,"end":14973.112,"text":"好,謝謝主席。時間有限,有請黃主委。有請黃主委。然後請我們的櫃買中心的,今天是董事長嗎?陳董事長。陳董事長,以及我們證交所。陳永成。陳董事長。好。社會保安,謝謝。"},{"start":14977.638,"end":15004.284,"text":"主委我想來跟您談的是我想這個最近台積電因為在這個日本熊本設廠之後大家都在想說臺灣除了台積電之外能不能出現下一個護國神山我先來舉一個數字就是這一陣子我們可以看到就是影視音的發展我想全球都關注到大家都看到韓國的另外一個崛起就是K-POP的流行那麼包括像Disney Plus他們拍一個藝能這樣的一個韓劇就投資了"},{"start":15007.265,"end":15030.913,"text":"五百億韓環我算了一下大概是11億台幣那麼另外Netflix就是網飛它因為黑暗榮耀的成功也是一個韓劇那麼呢現在呢為他們帶來的收益讓他們未來接下來要投資至少超過25億美元在韓劇的拍攝換算一下今天的匯率大概至少有700"},{"start":15032.489,"end":15035.892,"text":"780幾億,言下之意就是對臺灣來講臺灣下一個世代的護國神山會不會是文創我們不知道但是來下一張我們來看一下以臺灣文創的產值來看的話在2022年的時候只有4300億但是以上個禮拜公佈的2022年度已經來到了1.09兆但是"},{"start":15056.208,"end":15080.866,"text":"我想問一下就是主委你怎麼來看臺灣文創的發展當現在全球都在用錢來砸錢製造高品質的文創的時候那麼臺灣的文創產業要怎麼樣注入新活水因為就我所了解目前的所謂的文創上市櫃的家數來講只有一家必應然後上櫃25家新櫃是10家"},{"start":15083.307,"end":15095.521,"text":"主委你知道上市的這一家必應創造是什麼時候上市的嗎?抱歉委員我請您知道我不太清楚我想這個證交所應該有資料對不對?請走,必應創造"},{"start":15096.584,"end":15120.994,"text":"知道嗎?我不是記得很清楚大概3、4年前吧?對,因為其實你們在去年的12月20號的時候其實有針對文創產業作為一些投資體檢以及相關上市櫃的一些說明尤其是創新版的這個部分我來告訴主委我查到的資料是2018年2018年的2月我們現在已經到2024年了"},{"start":15125.336,"end":15134.485,"text":"那麼言下之意這5、6年當中沒有其他的文創的公司能夠有機會再上市那麼到底我們的證交所跟櫃買中心是要如何來扮演這個投資市場的敲門磚當全球現在都在透過"},{"start":15140.951,"end":15156.469,"text":"資金的挹注文創的時候那麼我想請問一下主委或者是證交所我們知道其實都有所謂的創新版我們也希望創新版能夠扮演這個領頭羊的角色但是過程當中為什麼不盡理想原因到底在哪裡"},{"start":15158.616,"end":15175.659,"text":"其實我覺得我們絕對沒有排除任何的產業那我們都希望各種產業有發展潛力都能夠在我們的交易所能夠上市那我是不是請簡董經理說明一下你們在招商過程中有沒有特別注意"},{"start":15176.591,"end":15189.996,"text":"我們在創新的這一個部分其實我們去年的成績還不錯我們已經有10家創新的公司已經掛牌市值大概有1500億左右"},{"start":15191.917,"end":15216.922,"text":"那持續有一些創新的公司他符合上市的規定那就可以來掛牌那另外交易所也對於比如說除了電子產業以外我們希望有一些新的產業能夠出來比如說數位雲端啊比如說生技啦比如說運動休閒類的整個類別我們都有在鼓勵他們來"},{"start":15217.742,"end":15242.857,"text":"因為我的時間有限委員這樣好不好我們如果委員可以我們可以多跟文化部聯繫一下看他有沒有學的需要扶植的這種產業我們來看看怎麼樣在交易所能夠或者其他適合的場地能夠募資這樣可以嗎好其實事實上就是說我們都知道就是我非常關心這一塊那麼證交所在有關於創新版或者是在櫃板中心有關上櫃的部分所以現在"},{"start":15243.757,"end":15264.329,"text":"其實很多的文創業者或者是文創產業他們當然希望能夠透過市場資金挹注讓他們能夠壯大但是以我自己來做的這個比較就會發現在創新版的部分在財務的條件上面相對的是比較寬鬆要上櫃是比較有更多的要求但是在投資人的部分反而是上櫃"},{"start":15265.65,"end":15294.17,"text":"的部分沒有對投資有太多的要求流動性也就會比較高所以在這樣的部分當中如何讓這些所謂需要資金導入或者是需要能夠有機會進入上市或者是新櫃的部分的時候到底他們應該要諮詢誰我想這是對於很多的創從事創意或者是投資文創的人他們其實是不了解的那麼對他們來說他們要如何來徵詢這些答案呢"},{"start":15295.506,"end":15324.404,"text":"我覺得因為創新版畢竟它的風險一般的版要高所以對投資人有一個限制可是去年已經政經局已經調降了它的這個資格了那委員是不是這樣子我可以也許由您來指導我們起交易所、購買中心跟相關文創產業瞭解他們的現在的情況那現在的這種創新版跟那個購買中心的這個上櫃版的這些條件還有什麼可以再去做調整的"},{"start":15324.904,"end":15333.332,"text":"好,我所知道的是我曾經也希望證交所跟這個文策院能夠有多一點的聯動包括你們去年12月20號曾經有公開一個說明會而且這樣的說明會也要持續是不是會後可以給我一份報告包括去年12月20號當時說明會的狀況以及後續的狀況因為我認為其實對於文創業者一定希望能夠在不一樣的層次的市場當中能夠獲得更多的資金活水"},{"start":15350.808,"end":15368.201,"text":"但是這些資金回水要怎麼樣正確的導入甚至於讓他們有機會能夠進入創新版或者是能夠上櫃對他們來講恐怕他們需要的是更多的是輔助我當然知道金管會是屬於一個金融監理但是在監理的同時如何能夠"},{"start":15368.942,"end":15382.818,"text":"也賦予這樣的讓這個所謂能夠讓產業蓬勃然後能夠協助讓整個金所謂的市場能夠健全我想這個也是金管會的責任之一那會後是不是給我一個更詳細的報告是是增加委員提示辦理謝謝"},{"start":15383.581,"end":15407.919,"text":"好,謝謝林楚穎委員的質詢。接著我們請蔡易委員、蔡易委員、蔡易委員不在。接著我們請林沛翔委員、林沛翔委員、林沛翔委員不在。接著我們請鄭振興委員、鄭振興委員、鄭振興委員不在。接著我們請黃美惠委員、黃美惠委員、黃美惠委員不在。接著我們請林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員不在。接著我們的鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員不在。接著我們請何新淳委員、何新淳委員、何新淳委員不在。接著我們請楊瓊穎委員"},{"start":15413.305,"end":15433.595,"text":"沒有。好。今日登記發言的委員均與詢答完畢。那本日的這個會議做如下的決定。一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢及未答覆請補充資訊請金管會於一週內書面答覆。委員另有要求期限者從其所定。"},{"start":15434.535,"end":15453.862,"text":"委員盧明才、楊瓊英所提書面質詢已列入紀錄刊登公報並請金管會以書面答覆本日的會議程已進行完畢堂友不在場的委員提出書面質詢已列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人協助處理休息主委辛苦了"},{"start":15463.274,"end":15463.575,"text":"這樣就不出力了。"},{"start":15499.838,"end":15500.621,"text":"本集完"},{"start":15530.831,"end":15531.175,"text":"多謝您的收看。"}]}},{"id":"149309","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149309","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd218ddae1d4b9b7994df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a69c81e221a39c174e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:18:10 - 11:32:00","影片長度":"00:13:50","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":830,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:32:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:18:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":733,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時18分）主席、各位委員、各位官員，還有各位媒體，大家好。首先本席想請海委會管主委。"],["主席：有請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委好。首先本席想先就教育部重編的國語辭典修訂本來向您做一個簡單的教育，「撞」的其中一個意思就是碰擊，例如撞車，所以今天我們的題目金門撞船事件，這個碰撞的意思就是碰觸、撞擊。剛剛您在答詢牛煦庭委員的時候你也一直講碰觸，所以撞跟碰撞都是一種描述客觀事實的動詞，如果撞帶有故意的意思，那本席想請教，2020年1月2日空軍黑鷹直升機在新北烏來山區撞山失事，是故意的嗎？八八水災漂流木撞擊漁船致受災專案救助計畫，難道漂流木有意識，難道是故意的嗎？所以希望管主委，包含海委會、海巡單位不要在文字上去做過多的解釋。","其次，在海商法第三條，下列船舶除因碰撞外，不適用本法之規定，它也是用碰撞；海事報告規則第一條，本規則所稱海事，指船舶沉沒、擱淺、碰撞。所以這個部分希望管主委可以去查，不要自己想、自己對。","再來，本席也要再一次來譴責您擅改我們召委的專案報告題目，其實不只是不尊重立法院、不只是藐視國會，您更是毀憲亂政，是毀壞我們憲法的現行犯！所以本席還是在這裡要求您道歉認錯，可以嗎？現在！"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，這件事情發展到現在，我想……"],["徐委員欣瑩：停！你不用回答，你願不願意道歉認錯？"],["管主任委員碧玲：其實委員，從昨天我公開對社會……"],["徐委員欣瑩：道歉認錯！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我昨天……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你昨天發簡訊我們都看到……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我說太多次了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你說失禮……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我說太多次了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是今天的題目還是用你自己的定義。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我幾經斟酌兩個價值我必須要平衡的時候，我所致的意就是用這樣的方式來表達。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請暫停、請暫停、請暫停！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你昨天傳給我們的高金召委，你說失禮……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個之前就已經對外、新聞都……"],["徐委員欣瑩：結果今天的報告還是用你的這個題目，完全的、真的藐視國會，毀憲亂政。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我接受所有各種的指責。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，接下來本席要掌握時間，我們非常捍衛海巡的立場，剛剛海巡署也這樣說、您也這樣說，真正的捍衛就是要拿出證據、說明真相，所以本席要再次請教，檢方是否有查扣兩艘船的船舶軌跡資料，有沒有？"],["管主任委員碧玲：交給檢方的資料我們請分署長來說明……"],["徐委員欣瑩：等一下、等一下！我沒有要請分署長。"],["管主任委員碧玲：那是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：您身為海委會主委，發生這麼大的事……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：您應該知道大陸的漁船跟我們1051艇的船舶軌跡資料，我們臺灣這邊雷達資料或是兩艘船有沒有船舶軌跡資料、有沒有交給地檢署？本席就問這個問題。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟我報告的是有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有。"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前分署長跟我報告的是有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我現在要跟您確認，兩艘船都有嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：一起都交給地檢署、都交給地檢署。"],["徐委員欣瑩：兩艘船都有，好！各位，兩艘船的軌跡都有，我們是不是可以就軌跡的比對就知道到底有沒有碰撞？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，檢察官會根據船本身的事證……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，當然檢察官有檢察官認定，但是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：還有軌跡也好、還有筆錄也好，檢察官有非常非常多的事證可以去統合研判。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，對，當然、當然。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們大公無私、不偏不倚。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以委員我能不能說明？"],["徐委員欣瑩：不用、不用，不用你說明。"],["管主任委員碧玲：剛剛署長到今天……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在要捍衛我們海巡弟兄的立場，第一個，既然有船舶軌跡資料，我們就可以比對，這個部分就可以推翻你們一直擅改我們召委的題目，你就是強詞奪理，這第一個；第二個，本席想請教，媒體報導兩船接近，巡邏艇長下令登船檢查，中國快艇突然甩尾急轉、不讓海巡人員登船是否是事實？"],["管主任委員碧玲：所有的案情說明，委員，為什麼今天一直到現在我們署長才把剛剛講的三個原因說出來……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，好，OK，請暫停、請暫停！"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為從頭到尾所有的案情……"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果不暫停，我請主席暫停時間！"],["管主任委員碧玲：所有的案情都應該由檢察官來還原……"],["徐委員欣瑩：暫停時間！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我沒有要他講這個。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝，請暫停。"],["主席：請主委尊重一下委員的質詢。"],["徐委員欣瑩：剛剛我也有在聽，牛委員質詢的時候我們署長說的，一再地他只是在說明什麼？船為什麼會翻，但是我們現在要確認的是，當我們要下令登船檢查的時候，到底是不是中國快艇突然甩尾急轉、不讓海巡人員登船？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我從來就是一個態度……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以造成不小心碰撞或是不小心怎麼樣，然後才導致翻覆，你們是一直地強調為什麼會翻覆，我剛剛有聽，我聽得很清楚，所以不用再講，現在我的問題就是，是不是我們要下令登船檢查的時候，中國快艇突然甩尾急轉，這點你們海巡署應該早就知道這個情況，到底是不是？是否屬實？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我請委員能不能支持，我們冷靜、靜待司法調查的結果。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以，好，OK……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我一直都說，我們一定要對各種說法不偏不倚、大公無私。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那這一點到這邊，這樣我瞭解。"],["管主任委員碧玲：讓檢察官來還原真相，這是我的態度。"],["徐委員欣瑩：其實你的回復我們大家就知道，應該就是如此嘛。再來，有人說兩岸的默契，只要越界船駛離禁限水域，我們海巡人員就會返回執勤地區，當時其實是大陸快艇更深入了我方的海域，所以才發生追捕事件，這個情況是否屬實？應該是吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是，對。"],["管主任委員碧玲：在禁止水域內。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席要問，當天指揮CP-1051追緝作業的是艇長還是岸上指揮？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，這個事情……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你就回答，我這個是選擇題，那一天到底誰指揮這個追緝作業？是誰？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們在雷情上發現的時候就會有調度，然後整個的過程當然是船上的艇長，我是不是請我們分署長說明？"],["徐委員欣瑩：不用、不用，分署長不用，會浪費我的時間，本席為什麼問這一題？主委，你不用回答，本席為什麼問這一題？因為現在我們看到媒體報導，檢方以過失致人於死的這種法律責任、朝向這方面偵辦……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員、委員，這是一個司法上……"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然我不希望，因為我在挺我們海巡人員……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個最後……我們目前還是他字案。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不能讓海巡人員去擔這個法律責任。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們要知道是誰下的指令，按照剛剛我們主委所說的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們岸際通報……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那是我們艇長……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我們岸際通報的時候，巡防區就會調度，調度以後整個執法的過程……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以有艇長、也有岸上指揮，都有。"],["管主任委員碧玲：整個執法的過程不會去指揮他說，你這個是要驅離還……沒有那個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，我看到分署長……我們的署長已經點頭了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們請分署長來說明。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請暫停，沒有，署長已經點頭了……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有，委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：也就是……有、有、有，他點頭了！"],["主席：署長要不要正式上來回答一下？您點頭了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們為了瞭解真相……"],["主席：我們是不是請委員請署長上去點頭？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，我想還是請分署長說明，好嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：不用。"],["主席：不用，好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：啊，要站上來點頭，因為我看他站在那邊。"],["主席：因為他剛剛站在旁邊對於我們欣瑩委員點頭，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，署長，我沒有要你回答，我剛剛在講的時候，當天指揮CP-1051追緝作業的時候……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，不是從頭到尾一個長官在指揮喔，那是……"],["主席：來，請署長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對、對，沒有啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：那不是喔、那不是喔……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這中間一定有互通嘛，所以我們的艇長還有岸上指揮，大家就狀況然後來下令，所以那一天應該不是只有單一的指揮。"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然，這是一個連續動作。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，好，OK，這樣就可以了。"],["周副主任委員美伍：從勤指中心下達到海巡隊當天的駐隊長官，也就是副隊長……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，好。"],["周副主任委員美伍：然後再由副隊長下達到艦艇本身。"],["徐委員欣瑩：瞭解、瞭解，所以這中間的責任……"],["周副主任委員美伍：這個流程是一個連續……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們不希望……"],["周副主任委員美伍：勤指中心也會直接下令給1051。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以這個部分我們要瞭解，我們在挺海巡的弟兄。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，好，現在海委會堅持只有道義責任，那……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我從來沒有說……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們一直在追逐真相。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有喔，慰問金不是賠償是否屬實？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們一直希望司法能夠把這個真相真實地呈現，這個就是為什麼我們一直沒有對外說明的原因，我們不希望影響司法的判斷。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，OK，好，我們當然希望兼顧偵查不公開、兩岸互信、臺灣人民權益保障和未來兩岸協同執法繼續推動，我們還是希望海委會要釐清事實、向社會完整說明。"],["周副主任委員美伍：一定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：今天在報告的時候管主委有提到，因為現在兩岸雙方都互不信任，如果送請公正專業的第三方團體機構鑑定，管主委是否同意？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，我們也希望這樣做……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，海巡署會不會主動……"],["周副主任委員美伍：同時檢調已經在這樣做了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，專業的第三方，不是臺灣、也不是對岸喔。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們現在的專業第三方是由檢調來決定，他去請。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以是我們臺灣這邊，其實……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我不知道是哪邊。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你這樣怎麼讓大家可以相信？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，這是我國的司法制度。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那海巡署所以你們不是請……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們非常希望如此。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是請公正的第三方……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們希望請公正的第三方。"],["徐委員欣瑩：非臺灣、非大陸。"],["周副主任委員美伍：都可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：都可以，好。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們都可以，因為這是一個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：海巡署會不會主動提出申請？海巡署會不會主動提出申請？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們已經請檢調單位能夠請公正的第三方把這樣子的一個海上的物理、海事的現象跟物理的碰撞，或者是任何一個擦撞，或者是水流的影響，或者是船速的影響，或者是船型的影響……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，請你暫停、請你暫停。"],["周副主任委員美伍：各種狀況，它會依據專家來衡定這個結果。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後本席要說，管主委，你位高權重，出入有隨扈，安全無虞，但是現在的金門撞船事件，造成金門海域附近的民間區漁會跟漁民朋友只能尋求自保，所以我們看到……"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員，我想這個可能……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們看到……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我不認為這是實情。"],["徐委員欣瑩：看到金門區漁會的資訊宣導，有沒有？中國海警18日宣布加強海上執法……"],["周副主任委員美伍：這不是事實。"],["徐委員欣瑩：兩岸處於敏感時刻……"],["周副主任委員美伍：報告委員，我必須要強調……"],["徐委員欣瑩：請漁民朋友切勿越界作業……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們要強調……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以本席想說的是……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們依然在執法……"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席想說的是，我們……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們日常的勤務從來沒有一天停止過，從事發到現在，我們沒有一天停止勤務過……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對、對、對……"],["周副主任委員美伍：同時我們不斷地提醒漁民……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望你們繼續的執法合法。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們為海巡鼓掌，但是如果未來檢察官起訴，我想請問我們的管主委，如果到時候真的有這種過失致死，您要如何自保？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我今天所說的第一點……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你會不會辭職？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我今天所說的第一點……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你會不會辭職？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我今天所說的第一點已經非常地清楚，本案有待我們國家的司法制度來釐清……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望……"],["管主任委員碧玲：釐清責任，毋枉毋縱，這是我們的態度。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，當然，我們大家都希望，而且我們希望是沒有擦槍走火，所以我們希望管主委，您一定要為整個事件想得周全，你不要再如此的態度強硬，而且我們希望能夠為兩岸……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的善意無以復加，我們真的呼籲大家能不能一起……"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢，時間到了……"],["管主任委員碧玲：呼籲對方也讓這件事情回歸人道。"],["主席：也謝謝管主委。","繼續請蘇巧慧委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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誰下的指令?所以按照剛剛我們主委所說的那是我們庭長是庭長委員我們按記通報的時候循環區就會調度調度以後整個執法的過程所以有庭長也有按上指揮整個執法的過程不會去指揮他說你這個是要驅離還是沒有那個我們的署長已經點頭了秦站妳沒有署長已經點頭了沒有沒有"},{"start":538.719,"end":539.139,"text":"我剛剛在講的時候"},{"start":555.018,"end":572.397,"text":"當天指揮CP1051追緝作業的時候,委員請…不是,從頭到尾一個長官在指揮,那是不…對,對,對,有啊,所以這中間一定有互通嘛,然後所以我們的庭長還有岸上指揮,大家就狀況,然後來下令,所以那一天應該是…"},{"start":573.658,"end":573.798,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":604.058,"end":610.663,"text":"我們一直希望司法能夠把這個真相真實的呈現這個就是為什麼我們一直沒有對外說明的原因我們不希望影響司法的判斷"},{"start":619.73,"end":638.502,"text":"我們當然希望我們兼顧偵查不公開兩岸互信台灣人民權益保障和未來兩岸協同執法繼續推動那我們還是希望海委會要釐清事實向社會完整說明那今天在報告的時候這個管主委有提到"},{"start":639.483,"end":653.276,"text":"因為現在呢,我們雙方,兩岸雙方都會不信任,如果送請公正專業的第三方團體機構鑑定,管主委是否同意?是,我們也希望這樣做。"},{"start":657.299,"end":657.539,"text":"海巡署"},{"start":676.58,"end":681.485,"text":"我們非常希望我們希望請公正的第三方非台灣非大陸都可以因為這是一個我們已經請"},{"start":691.076,"end":691.537,"text":"最後本席要說"},{"start":711.977,"end":732.611,"text":"管主委,你位高權重,出入有隨乎,安全無虞但是,現在我們這個金門撞船事件,造成我們金門海域附近民間的漁會跟漁民朋友只能尋求自保"},{"start":733.391,"end":734.732,"text":"報導委員,我必須要強調,我們依然在執法"},{"start":755.939,"end":757.98,"text":"我們希望你們繼續的執法合法我們為海巡鼓掌但是如果"},{"start":773.65,"end":802.318,"text":"未來檢察官起訴那我想請問我們管主委如果到時候真的有這種過失致死那您要如何治保?你會不會辭職?我今天所說的第一點已經非常的清楚本案有待於我們國家的司法制度來釐清您責任勿萬勿眾這是我們的責任當然我們大家都希望而且我們希望是沒有擦槍走火"},{"start":802.938,"end":824.098,"text":"所以我們希望管主委您一定要為我們這個整個事件你要想的周全你不要再如此的這個態度強硬而且我們希望能夠對兩岸我們的聖意無以復加我們真的呼籲大家能不能一起呼籲對方也讓這件事情回歸人道好也謝謝管主委謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149308","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149308","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddfc0861ecb864d3454df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a6c0e596ce62f2f2b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:03:27 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11:17:41","影片長度":"00:14:14","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":854,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:17:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:03:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":586,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時3分）謝謝主席。有請海委會主委。"],["主席：請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：牛委員早！"],["牛委員煦庭：在開始質詢之前我們還是要把話講清楚，因為連給一份報告的內容都可以避重就輕，本席是覺得非常失望！這是我們很多新科委員第一次站上委員會發言的質詢臺，但前面就惹出這麼多的風波，我想海委會主委責無旁貸，我舉個例子來講，召委已經明確的排案，也把會議的名稱告訴大家，連外面不屬於內政委員會直接監管的國防部都願意尊重內政委員會的排案權力，直接去寫金門撞船案的報告，結果你們海委會自己在那邊更改名稱，還發臉書，只跟召委講，也不跟委員溝通，前面剛剛程序發言也有講，有其他例子都是協調過後，大家都願意各退一步，可是像你這樣子跳過去，還在臉書上直接寫的，也算是聞所未聞啦！陸委會也很油條，就乾脆寫這就是個會議，也不寫標題，反正方法總是很多啦！我只是覺得國防部比你們更重視內政委員會這件事情，你們應該要好好回去檢討啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為有海巡署的立場必須捍衛，請委員能夠支持。"],["牛委員煦庭：你講得真好啊！要開始我們的質詢就是因為要捍衛海巡的立場，我告訴你，在場每一個立法委員都非常支持基層依法行政，這件事情沒有人質疑……"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是撞船事件對他們來講……"],["牛委員煦庭：我還沒有請你回答，我會給你時間，好不好？主委，你先聽我把話講完。","為什麼我們都講要支持執法？這就是因為我們要支持基層依法行政，所以今天才要排這個專案報告，我第一個要請問主委的問題是，我們現在每一次這些爭議的海域有那麼多的船隻進進出出，請問平常海巡在執法的時候是以驅離為原則，還是以登船檢查為原則？請主委回答。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我今天最新的資料沒有在手中，但是根據事發當天我們今年驅離213艘才扣留了4艘，驅離213艘扣留的才只有4艘，我想委員從這個數字可以知道……"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講……"],["管主任委員碧玲：執法有執法的依法行政種種規定……"],["牛委員煦庭：有依法行政的界限……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，沒錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我現在就要問你，在這邊把話講清楚，什麼時候要驅離？什麼時候要上船登檢？有沒有SOP？"],["管主任委員碧玲：三無是絕對扣留，三無是法有明文規定，兩岸人民關係條例明文規定，三無船、無名船，百分之百我們就是一定要經過登檢以後處理……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我們把話講清楚，當然，既然是要登船、要扣留，對不對？所以就越追越近了，是不是？當初的狀況就是這樣，是不是？"],["管主任委員碧玲：登檢的過程就是一個不斷調整靠近、調整靠近、持續會有碰觸的過程，委員，我們的同仁在那種過程中跳上船是有可能被夾到的……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的同仁還三根指頭被夾斷，我們的同仁……"],["牛委員煦庭：三根指頭被夾斷……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的同仁一直受傷……"],["牛委員煦庭：在這件事情上？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不是，在所有登檢的事件當中……"],["牛委員煦庭：喔！你要講清楚耶！我告訴……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們有很多這樣的傷痕在身上……"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，在國際海巡的執法慣例上，通常如果要停船受檢，當然就會比較有衝突性，也比較有危險性，甚至很多地方會做失能性射擊，甚至考慮擊沉，碰撞其實是這個執法的替代方案……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們沒有……"],["牛委員煦庭：我還沒有問你……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：你不要再這樣，這很過分，好不好？所以我們用靠近的方式，有的時候可能會有碰撞，本來就是在所難免的事情，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：是，對不對？我跟你講，我們今天把這個話講清楚就是因為我們無意要指責基層，但是總要知道真相，你要先知道真相，才能尋求善了，所以剛剛很多委員都很關心有沒有密錄器，我告訴你，有沒有密錄器影響的是什麼？影響是什麼？沒有密錄器的話，會影響什麼？會造成什麼後果？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們會比較迅速地對於案情有比較多的瞭解，這一點我們痛加檢討，而且也成立了小組，在未來如何確實落實的部分還有整個過程我們都會做全盤的檢討。"],["牛委員煦庭：我告訴主委，108年大概也是在這裡開會，雖然那時候本席還不是立法委員，但那個時候大概也是因為海巡執法的關係，內政委員會就作成決議，2個月以內要研議處理，讓大家都有密錄器。108年就講要把這個品質提升起來，到了現在還會發生這樣的事，然後完全沒有畫面，主委，我告訴你，沒有密錄器、沒有畫面影響的就是基層的權益啊！因為我們現在連話都講不清楚，連話都講不清楚的時候，我們怎麼幫基層執法人員講話？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這確實是保護雙方，所以我們會痛加檢討……"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在講痛加檢討，現在就是痛加檢討，我痛加檢討、我承受指責，現在臺灣的政治這麼好搞就對了！在整件事情上，包含……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這不好搞，這非常不好搞。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委今天稍早開會的時候還講我一肩扛起，這話講得多好聽啊！現在只要被罵，就講一肩扛起，這麼簡單嗎？請問這件事情發生到現在誰負責了？負起了什麼政治責任？付出了什麼代價？請你回答。"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，海巡依法行政取締三無船舶，造成意外沒有他們的過失，剛剛署長所說三大原因，委員，我們沒有對外……"],["牛委員煦庭：你不要帶風向。"],["管主任委員碧玲：不是，我如果要帶風向，早就在社會上把這些事情說出去了，為什麼忍辱負重到今天不得不說……"],["牛委員煦庭：還忍辱負重，真厲害！"],["管主任委員碧玲：為什麼到今天不得不說？過去為什麼不說……"],["牛委員煦庭：我為什麼講你在帶風向你知道嗎？因為我沒有在講基層……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我一直告訴他們這是片面之詞，要檢察官去還原……"],["牛委員煦庭：我講的是你的管理失當嘛！我講你的管理失當，我講你該上去的裝備沒有準時上去嘛！你的管理上是你高層的事情……"],["管主任委員碧玲：標配在船上，標配在船上……"],["牛委員煦庭：不是基層的事情嘛！出事的時候……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，標配在船上。"],["牛委員煦庭：出事的時候，管理階層就要檢討，就要有人負起政治責任，現在問題之所以大家講成這樣就是因為沒有人負起政治責任嘛！大家期待你知所進退、有所作為也是因為這樣嘛！然後你今天永遠都把基層……"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為沒有錄影的事情……"],["牛委員煦庭：推到第一線去擋子彈……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有，我從來保護他們到現在……"],["牛委員煦庭：這就是今天大家對這件事情這麼不愉快的原因嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：本席從來保護他們到現在，此時此刻我還在保護他們。"],["牛委員煦庭：還本席耶！換位置了都搞不清楚。","進第二部分，根據海巡署召開的海巡署金門0214專案小組記者會，第九海巡隊副隊長陳建文報告時坦承執法期間兩船有碰撞；金門地檢署2月20號對外說明，主任檢察官施家榮表示，訊問金門海巡隊，執勤隊員表示，當時雙方高速行駛，對方不斷蛇行，雙方不慎發生碰撞，大陸快艇當場翻覆。我剛剛前面已經幫你講了，你竟然說，因為我不要射擊，我以碰撞的方式處理，這是一種選擇，所以碰撞是執法的常態。地檢署也講，你們自己海巡裡面的人也講，那就有嘛！有就是有。"],["管主任委員碧玲：碰撞和撞船不一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：碰撞跟撞船不一樣？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們請專業來說明好嗎？碰撞和撞船是不是一樣，我們能不能讓我們的分署長用最專業的角度來跟委員……"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，你今天想要在這邊鬼扯這個我沒有意見，但是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我沒有鬼扯，我是請分署長來說明專業的……"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在最大的問題，我現在檢討你整件事情的處遇，第一時間你講它蛇行翻覆，然後後來被人家這樣一講出來之後，你就講有碰撞，你現在在那邊爭執什麼叫撞船、什麼叫碰撞，你是很無聊的，社會大眾要知道的是到底有沒有碰在一起，有沒有碰撞，結論就是有。現在到底有或沒有？你回答我這個就好了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們請分署長來回答。"],["廖分署長德成：報告委員，我們在執行登檢的過程裡面，兩船會擦撞、碰撞這個都是一個常態，至於說碰撞的大小會不會影響到它翻覆的狀況，這個由地檢署在做一個確認。我們在登檢，碰撞、擦撞都是常態。"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在講常態，所以就回到我剛剛講的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以委員，當我第一時間看到海巡對外做那樣的說明的時候，事後我瞭解，在海巡的語言裡面，登檢就是包含一個持續碰撞的過程，所以他們用那樣的語言來講的時候，事實上跟社會溝通的語言不一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你在這邊就等於是承認有碰撞嘛！對不對？現在就有碰撞嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：那是一個持續碰觸的過程……"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛只問你有或沒有而已，就有嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：那確實是一個持續碰觸的過程……"],["牛委員煦庭：持續碰撞的狀態，所以就有嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：那你前面為什麼不講呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個東西登檢是必然……"],["牛委員煦庭：你前面為什麼不講呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個海巡第一時間沒有講，所以我替他們來講的時候，委員，當碰撞的事實要說明，又沒有錄影帶，要一起說明的時候，那絕對是一個跟社會溝通的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，你知道社會大眾現在怎麼解釋這件事嗎？一開始說他們蛇行翻覆，所以我們的執法人員幹得好，後來講到完蛋有碰撞，可能這事有爭議，後來你最近因為專案報告的名稱……"],["管主任委員碧玲：登檢蛇行是……"],["牛委員煦庭：你又要堅持沒有碰撞，然後你現在在這裡回答我的時候你又說有碰撞，這叫顛三倒四。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我沒有堅持沒有碰撞過，對案情我從頭到尾都說……"],["牛委員煦庭：這個事情我看還有得講。"],["管主任委員碧玲：海巡署的說法我必須不偏不倚、大公無私讓檢察官去還原事實。"],["牛委員煦庭：光是你的反反覆覆就讓這件事情更加複雜。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我沒有反反覆覆，我被說成反反覆覆，我從來沒有反反覆覆……"],["牛委員煦庭：處理這些事情中間的顛三倒四、進退失據……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我從來沒有……"],["牛委員煦庭：就是這件事情可能上升到政治衝突的最重要的原因嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，認知作戰加諸於我身，我承受下來，但是我是不接受的。"],["牛委員煦庭：主席，對不起，時間暫停一下。"],["主席：我們請主委對相關委員的質詢再回應好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：一個三大報之一的社論都還說我指示海巡署可以直接對海警船開火……"],["主席：我們時間暫停一下……"],["管主任委員碧玲：認知作戰做到這種地步，我是不接受的，我承受，連一個報紙的社論都可以造謠到這種地步，說我下令海巡署可以對海警船直接開火……"],["主席：主委，麻煩你一下，你這些想要說的話在你個人的臉書說好不好？今天我們所有的委員沒有質詢你這個部分，謝謝。請你就不要再回答問題，因為牛委員沒有問你這個問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，尊重一下立法委員的質詢權，前面已經不尊重召委的排案權，現在又要不尊重立法委員的質詢權……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有，我……"],["牛委員煦庭：這裡是你答詢的場合，不是你開記者會的場合，你搞清楚啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是錯誤的指責我一定要澄清……"],["牛委員煦庭：第三部分我要接著問……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這樣其實才是三權分立的……"],["牛委員煦庭：第三部分我要接著問，這個也要請一下陸委會主委，可能要一起說明，麻煩你，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請邱主委。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在的狀況是中共國臺辦發表立場，直接宣示禁止水域不存在，它不是嘴巴講而已，現在人家海警船也進來了，進來之後愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞，我們看巡航軌跡感覺還蠻順暢的，就好像照它規劃的這樣繞了好幾圈一樣，今天來一下，明天又來一下，好像非常態變成常態，本席非常擔心。我們都支持海巡執法，但我們也支持執法不分對象，剛剛你講針對三無魚船我們甚至要登船臨檢，這是你的SOP，我們當然覺得沒有問題，我們剛剛在討論的是你在處理整件事情的時候進退失據，讓一件意外變成政治風暴，這是高層、這是你們這些管理單位無能的地方。現在我們要看的是接下來可能會發生什麼事，現在狀況是海警船登堂入室，先請管主委再回答一下，請問海巡是要處理，還是不處理？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我建議這個問題由署長來回答，我們要知道的是最專業、最真實的事，為什麼不讓署長回答呢？"],["牛委員煦庭：我時間有限，我給你30秒，請。"],["主席：我們有請署長，謝謝。"],["周副主任委員美伍：非常感謝委員給我這個機會說明，我就單就這個問題來回答。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，海警你要怎麼辦？"],["周副主任委員美伍：海警船，目前從2月14號發生這件事情以後，他們每天刻意的在白天平均有6到7艘，曾經有高達過11艘，不僅海警船，還有海監船，還有公務船，還有海巡船，所以他們的意圖就是圍繞著金門。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，它進來了，處理不處理？要不要處理？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們都在處理，每一次都有處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：怎麼處理？有沒有驅離？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們有驅離。"],["牛委員煦庭：為什麼沒有影響他們的航跡？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們當然有，我們的船就是一直跟他對應著，我們在我們的禁止水域內對他們不斷地廣播跟驅離，這些我都可以……"],["牛委員煦庭：因為時間有限啦！署長，你把處遇的方式跟結果用書面的方式回復本席。"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為我們應該還會再討論這一題。"],["周副主任委員美伍：會，我會給你。"],["牛委員煦庭：我把最後25秒留給陸委會主委，一樣，我們要求書面。"],["主席：請邱主委。"],["牛委員煦庭：禁止跟限制水域是不是兩岸雙方的默契？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上從81年10月國防部根據兩岸條例公布了禁限制水域，這個禁限制水域30幾年來雙方都有這樣的默契。"],["牛委員煦庭：有默契嘛！出現歧異的時候怎麼處理？有沒有處遇方式？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上我想海巡單位都有它的SOP……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有，我講的是兩岸之間有沒有做協商跟討論？"],["邱主任委員太三：他們都有一個處理的機制……"],["牛委員煦庭：署長，不要打斷，我剛剛已經跟你講你書面回答就好。陸委會的最後一個問題，如果我們現在講說遇到這樣子的問題，海巡署長在你後面，請問你是支持他強力執法，還是你要呼籲他冷靜一點？"],["邱主任委員太三：我想當然支持他執法。"],["牛委員煦庭：強力執法？"],["邱主任委員太三：但是不是強力……"],["牛委員煦庭：是不是強力？"],["邱主任委員太三：本來狀況不同啊！因為我們現在沒有辦法假設到底是三無船，還是一般的漁船，還是貨輪……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有，我講海警船，中共的船。"],["邱主任委員太三：那我想他們都有SOP，我們的國軍也有……"],["牛委員煦庭：變成有SOP。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，他們有SOP，所有的狀況不同，我們沒有辦法現在一一回答。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為時間有限嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：剛剛按照情況來處理……"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，你剛剛有聽清楚我的問題嗎？一個是雙方默契，第二，認知出現歧異的時候是怎麼處理，兩岸現在遇到這樣的狀況，你的危機處理是什麼？第三個是執法，剛剛的這三個問題，一樣請你會後用書面回復本席，可以嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：好，可以，我請海巡彙整。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，前期未充分準備，中期處理進退失據，第三，事後方向不明確，該有人負起政治責任，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢，也謝謝所有官員的回答，請不要忘記，剛剛委員所提的，你們有些書面報告請你們儘速提到本委員會，然後給我們所有本委員會的委員來參考，謝謝。","繼續請徐欣瑩委員，但是跟委員報告一下，待會王美惠委員詢答完之後，我們休息5分鐘讓大家上洗手間，謝謝。有請欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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對不對是嘛 對不對我跟你講我們今天把這話講清楚就是因為我們沒有無意要指責基層啊但是總要知道真相嘛你要先知道真相才能尋求善了所以剛剛很多委員都很關心有沒有密錄器我告訴你有沒有密錄器影響的是什麼"},{"start":238.761,"end":251.005,"text":"我們會比較迅速的對於案情有比較多的了解這一點我們痛加檢討而且也成立了小組在未來如何確實的落實的部分還有整個過程我們都會做全盤的檢討"},{"start":252.25,"end":276.977,"text":"我告訴主委108年大概也是在這裡開會雖然那時候本席還不是立法委員但那個時候大概也是因為海巡執法的關係內政委員會就做成決議兩個月以內要研議要處理讓大家都有密錄器108年就要講說把這個品質提升起來到了現在還會發生這樣的事情它完全沒有畫面主委我告訴你沒有密錄器沒有畫面影響的就是基層的權益"},{"start":278.177,"end":281.974,"text":"因為我們現在連話都講不清楚啦連話都講不清楚的時候我們怎麼幫基層執法委員講話"},{"start":284.519,"end":308.806,"text":"這確實是保護雙方所以我們會痛加減討所以你現在講痛加減討現在就是痛加減討我痛加減討我承受指責現在台灣政治這麼好搞就對了在整件事情上幫主委今天稍早開會的時候在講我一肩扛起這話講得多好聽啊現在講一肩扛起被罵就叫一肩扛起這麼簡單嗎請問這件事情發生到現在誰負責了負起了什麼政治責任付出了什麼代價請你回答"},{"start":309.753,"end":310.254,"text":"我剛剛問了你不要帶風向"},{"start":324.773,"end":325.013,"text":"我講的是你的管理示範嘛!"},{"start":341.039,"end":363.105,"text":"我講你的管理失當我講你的該上去的裝備沒有準時上去嘛你的管理失當是高層的事情不是基本的事情嘛出事的時候出事的時候管理階層就要檢討就要有人負起政治責任現在問題之所以大家講成這樣就是因為沒有人負起政治責任嘛大家期待你之所進退有所作為也是因為這樣嘛"},{"start":364.185,"end":366.809,"text":"本席從來保護他們到現在,此時此刻我還在保護他們。"},{"start":380.051,"end":402.206,"text":"根據海巡署召開的海巡署金門2014專案小組記者會,第9號海巡隊副隊長陳建文報告是坦承執法期間兩船有碰撞。金門地檢署2月20日對外說明,主任檢察官施嘉榮表示,詢問金門海巡隊執行隊員表示,張獅雙方高速行駛,退方不斷蛇行,雙方不慎發生碰撞,大陸快艇當場翻覆。"},{"start":403.067,"end":419.264,"text":"我剛剛前面已經幫你講了你竟然說因為我不要涉及我以碰撞的方式處理這是一種選擇所以碰撞是執法的常態地檢署也講你們自己海巡裡面的人也講那就有嘛有就是有碰撞跟撞船不一樣碰撞跟撞船不一樣我們請專業來說明好嗎"},{"start":420.845,"end":436.858,"text":"碰撞和撞船是不是一樣?我們能不能讓我們的分署長用最專業的角度來規則?你今天想要在這邊規則這個我沒有意見我是請分署長要來說明你現在最大的問題我現在在檢討你整件事情的處遇你第一時間你講它蛇行蕃蝠"},{"start":437.498,"end":437.819,"text":"分署長回答"},{"start":455.271,"end":471.243,"text":"發委員我們在執行登檢的過程裡面兩船會擦撞碰撞這個都是一個常態至於說碰撞的大小會不會影響到它翻覆的狀況這個由地檢署再做一個確認那我們在登檢這個碰撞擦撞這個都是一個常態"},{"start":472.364,"end":474.426,"text":"所以你在這邊等於是承認有碰撞嗎?"},{"start":496.301,"end":497.142,"text":"這個海巡第一時間沒有講所以我替他們來講的時候"},{"start":512.057,"end":529.264,"text":"委員當碰撞的事實要說明又沒有錄影帶要一起說明的時候主委啊那絕對是一個跟社會溝通的你知道社會大眾現在怎麼解釋這件事嗎一開始說他們蛇行蕃赴所以我們的執法院幹好一看後來講到哇完蛋了有碰撞可能這次有爭議"},{"start":529.964,"end":532.467,"text":"我從來沒有碰撞過我從來沒有對案情對案情我從頭到尾都說這個事情我剛才還有得講"},{"start":544.981,"end":545.822,"text":"主席時間會被暫停一下"},{"start":566.698,"end":567.498,"text":"主席,對不起,時間暫停一下。"},{"start":581.903,"end":594.538,"text":"我承受,連一個報紙的社論都可以造謠到這種地步,說我下令海巡署可以對海警船直接開火。這是大報社會。今天我們的所有的委員沒有質詢你這個部分,謝謝。"},{"start":602.226,"end":618.461,"text":"請你就不要再回答問題,因為牛委員沒有問你這個問題,謝謝尊重一下立法委員的諮詢權啦,前面已經不尊重趙薇的排案權,現在又要不尊重立法委員的諮詢權這裡是你答詢的場合,不是你開記者會的場合,你搞清楚啊第三部分我要接著問啦現在,我這個也要請一下陸委會主委,可能要一起說明好不好,麻煩你,謝謝"},{"start":628.8,"end":650.559,"text":"現在狀況 中共國台辦發表立場啦 直接宣誓說這個禁止水域不存在他不是嘴巴講而已啊 現在人家海警船也進來啦進來的時候 愛怎麼搞怎麼搞 我們看那個巡航軌跡感覺還蠻順暢的就好像照他規劃的這樣子繞了好幾圈一樣今天來一下 明天又來一下 好像非常態變成常態 本席非常擔心啦"},{"start":651.32,"end":678.934,"text":"我們都支持海巡執法但我們也支持執法不分對象剛剛你講針對山無漁船 對不對我們這甚至要登船臨檢這是你的SOP我們當然覺得沒有問題 對不對我們剛剛在討論的是你在處理整件事情的時候進退失據讓一件意外變成政治風暴這是高層這是你們在管理單位無能的地方現在我們要看的是接下來可能會發生什麼事啊現在狀況是海警船登堂入室啊"},{"start":679.394,"end":683.915,"text":"請問問海巡先請管主委再回答一下海巡是要處理呢還是不處理委員我建議這個問題由署長來回答我們要知道的是最專業最真實的事為什麼不讓署長回答呢我時間有限我給你30秒請好我們有請署長謝謝"},{"start":702.052,"end":731.341,"text":"非常感謝委員給我這個機會說明我想你現在剛剛我就單就這個問題來回答對 這個海警船你要怎麼辦海警船現在目前從2月14號以後發生這件事情以後他們每天刻意的在白天平均在6到7艘那曾經有高達過11艘不僅海警船還有海監船還有公務船還有海巡船所以他們的意圖就是圍繞著金門對 他進來了處理不處理"},{"start":731.921,"end":751.68,"text":"我們都在處理每一次都有處理有沒有驅離?我們有驅離為什麼沒有影響他們的航跡?我們當然有我們的船就是一直跟他對應著我們在我們的禁止水域內對他們不斷的廣播跟驅離這些我都可以提拔你把程域的方式跟結構出面的方式沒有問題沒有問題因為我們應該還會再討論這題我把最後25秒留給陸委會主委一樣"},{"start":756.264,"end":783.934,"text":"我們要求書民這個禁止跟禁制水域是不是兩岸雙方的默契基本上從81年10月那國防部根據兩岸條例他公布了禁限制水域那這個禁限制水域30幾年來雙方都有這樣的有默契嘛對不對出現歧異的時候怎麼處理有沒有處理方式基本上我想海巡單位都有他的SOP沒有我講的是兩岸之間有沒有做協商跟討論"},{"start":784.814,"end":798.32,"text":"欸 他們都有一個處理的機制 主委喂 沒 署長你不要打斷我 署長不要打斷我 我剛剛已經跟你講 你書面就好 陸委會主 最後一個問題好不好如果我們現在講說 遇到這樣子的問題 海軍署長在你後面請問你是支持他強力執法 還是你要呼籲他冷靜一點"},{"start":799.921,"end":819.513,"text":"我想當然支持他執法啦!但是是不是強力?不是!他本來狀況不同啊!因為我們現在沒有辦法假設到底是珊瑚船還是一般的漁船還是貨船沒有我想海警船喔!中共的船!中共的船!那我想他們都有SOP我們的國軍有SOP對!本來他有SOP所有的狀況不同我們沒有辦法現在一一的"},{"start":822.595,"end":849.948,"text":"主委,你剛剛有聽清楚我的問題嗎?一個是,是不是雙方默契?第二,認知出現歧異的時候是怎麼處理?你跟兩岸,就現在遇到這樣的狀況,你的回去處理是什麼?第三個是執法,剛剛有問你這三個,一樣我請你會後用書面回覆本席,可以嗎?主委,前期未充分準備,中期處理進退失據第三,事後方向不明確,該有人負起政治責任,謝謝"},{"start":851.568,"end":853.175,"text":"非常謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"149307","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149307","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd15649485447562164df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a675fef83deab52e115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:49:35 - 11:02:45","影片長度":"00:13:10","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":790,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:02:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T10:49:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":510,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時49分）主席、在場的各位委員先進、主委及現場所有的媒體朋友，大家早。我想要請教一下我們的海洋……"],["主席：海巡署的署長嗎？"],["黃委員建賓：海洋委員會的主委。"],["主席：好，請海洋委員會的管主委，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：主委早安。主委，以前我對你印象都是在電視上，那是在擔任立委的時候，主委給我的印象就是專業而且溫柔，但是問題都尖銳，身為一個民意代表非常的成功，今天我也看到功力不減。但還是提醒一下主委，我想換了位置就換個腦袋是正常的，但是我相信依主委這麼資深的經歷，也應該知道要尊重立法權這件事情，就不會發生我們早上這麼多的話題。我來委員會的第一天，張宏陸委員就說我們的傳統是很peace、內政委員很peace，那我也想說應該是會很開心的在這裡來共同解決我們民眾的需求，沒想到今天一開會就看到現場這麼多的媒體跟朋友。當然，一個題目的變更會造成很大的話題，甚至它可能是引發起兩岸的問題，我希望主委這邊，未來我們能夠就這個部分儘量避免不要再發生。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我希望這個案件未來我們無論如何能夠避免再發生，所以這樣的爭議應該也就不會發生，前提是這件事情真的太重大，我謝謝委員的包容。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委，有時候還是要尊重一下我們的委員，也是要有立場。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是啦！海巡的立場實在是要支持。"],["黃委員建賓：你看我到現在都不小心講錯，都叫委員，其實要叫主委啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：主任委員也有「委員」兩個字，謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：我簡單的說，針對這次的金門撞船事件，其實發生大概就是兩個原因……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對不起，請委員支持海巡署改名，對他們來講真的太重大了，真的有需要。"],["主席：對不起主委，我必須要在這邊再糾正一下，今天的專案報告不是你們送來的專案報告，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：對啦！主委我都已經講成這樣了，你讓我好下台，你還這樣，對不對？我們現在提到的就是，整個引發最大爭議的原因就是因為影像這件事情，沒圖沒真相。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["黃委員建賓：沒圖沒真相，所以對於基層執勤的弟兄來講也非常的不公平，他們冒著生命危險在捍衛我們主權的同時、保護我們臺灣人民的同時，他必須因為沒有錄影設備而去背起這個責任，這個部分我覺得會後我們可以來討論……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對不起，錄影設備跟災難是兩件事，剛剛這個第一點恐怕是不是請委員能夠釐清，海巡署不是因為他們的過失造成災難，我能夠請委員再回到上一頁嗎？抱歉、抱歉、抱歉，因為海巡署的疏忽演變成災難，真的很抱歉，所以這個災難、這個事故，我想不是因為海巡署的疏忽，在登檢的過程中發生的事故，我們現在在等檢調來釐清、等檢察官來釐清，謝謝。如果說是因為沒有錄影帶的部分，我們真的是深深地感到抱歉，我再度也為沒有錄影帶的事情深深地感到抱歉。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝主委。","主委，海巡署說因為我們缺乏錄影器材造成問題，海巡署說我們十噸級以下的巡邏艦艇，密錄器不是標配，因為這樣並沒有違規，我想這個是都把責任推到我們基層同仁的作法啦！完全要第一線同仁來承擔這個風險，我想今天……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這一點是替他們說明。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，如果今天沒有因為金門撞船事件這個意外發生，我真的不知道海巡署同仁沒有配戴密錄器，幾個委員提到，像學忠委員有提到這個在我們鄉下是警察值勤基本的配備，因為他不單單是要維護執行的安全，他也要確保自己的安全，所以密錄器是必備的，應該是這樣吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：未來的勤務在這個部分，勤務的裝備跟勤務的管理，我們有一個全盤的策進小組，我們一定要落實……"],["黃委員建賓：對，我相信主委……"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員的關心，我們真的會痛加檢討，然後要全面地落實。"],["黃委員建賓：因為主委剛才有提到說主委上1年多解決很多問題，包括花了90億去修那個船嘛？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的車子20年了，真的是追不到嫌犯，所以這部分也解決了，陸陸續續解決，一樣一樣……"],["黃委員建賓：所以那個密錄器的比例應該不大吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：一樣一樣在解決，密錄器的部分我個人在偵防分署的部分讓它做到每一個人有一臺，這一點在我上任以後有要求，偵防分署的部分已經補到每一個人有一臺；金馬澎分署的部分我替他們找了100臺，過年後才到，所以當時那100臺還沒有到。所以其實我就任以後也陸陸續續地在解決密錄器，替海巡署做了很重要很重要的問題的解決，但是無論如何就這個部分真的接受所有委員的指導跟指教，我們一定要痛加檢討，未來絕對不允許在勤務上沒有落實，然後再發生這樣的事情。"],["黃委員建賓：我們部落很多弟兄都是在軍中服役，那有一些是在海巡單位服役，其實這件事情會對基層造成很大的打擊，因為他們會擔心未來如果我執勤到底要怎麼辦？如果說出了事情之後我要怎麼辦？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不過當天密錄器是夠的，當天密錄器是夠的。"],["黃委員建賓：那怎麼沒影片？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，所以我有說在管理勤務落實的部分，我們有很多細膩的地方要檢討，但是當天他們就是依尋常的作法，用攝影的器材來出勤，而且他不是說我要去登檢，怎麼會你要出發沒有密錄器？不是，而是他已經在海上，用他尋常的標配在海上執勤的時候被調過來的，被調到現場去應處這件事情……"],["黃委員建賓：所以有這樣的設備在？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，所以他用的就是標配，就是我們在每一艘 CP艇上面所給的手持式攝錄影機。"],["黃委員建賓：但是沒有影片。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我……好，來，分署長想要說明，我想更能夠瞭解事實，好不好？"],["黃委員建賓：好。"],["廖分署長德成：報告委員，我是艦隊分署的分署長廖德成，這邊再特別地說明，我們登檢的規定在密錄器的部分不一定是只有密錄器，只要能夠全程錄音錄影的設備就好，就是要在發動登檢的當時一定要全程錄音錄影，這個是我們一個勤務上面的規範，那當然如同我們主委講的，將來我們的勤務上面會再做檢討精進，以上。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝分署長的說明。"],["管主任委員碧玲：當時搖晃的程度讓他來不及，因為追逐的時間就短短的那麼5分鐘，而且是高速40節的過程。"],["黃委員建賓：我想署裡面也這樣說明，反正最重要的結果就是沒有影像，沒有影像可以去證明這件事情。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，這一點我們深感抱歉，我們一再地對社會表達我們的歉意。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委。主委，如果沒有影像，那船上應該有雷達軌跡，這個有嘛！對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個部分交給檢調了。"],["黃委員建賓：那我們既然有這樣的設備、有這樣的紀錄，有沒有辦法直接或間接的證明說撞船這件事情？有沒有辦法？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，有沒有這個影像當然是其中讓我們瞭解案情當中的一環，但是事證的還原其實不是光靠這個影像，事證的還原有種種的跡證，從船舶的跡證、從人員的筆錄、從各方面，檢察官會去還原整個事實的真相。"],["黃委員建賓：是，主委，我剛才提的是你們有雷達軌跡，這個雷達軌跡可不可以直接或間接來證明有沒有撞船？我們現在不在講影像了，我們講這個東西……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們請檢察官來研判，目前在檢察官……"],["黃委員建賓：海巡署的專業沒有辦法判斷有沒有嗎？分署長，這個沒辦法嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個部分請署長來說明。"],["主席：請署長。"],["周副主任委員美伍：跟委員報告，我想這一次整個有關陸船翻覆的原因，依照我個人、我們同仁第一時間在做現場的調查跟整個證物的現象來看，我想主要有三個原因，在這邊跟您做個報告。第一個、它是高速右轉，這是第一個原因，這個高速右轉，它的速度是推到底，它的電門開關是開啟，另外，它的舵（就是方向盤）是打到右滿舵，右滿舵就是向右轉到底，如同我們這一張圖片，這樣子的狀況它是高速右轉。","第二個主要的原因是它的配重有問題，它是一個平底的、快速的船隻……"],["黃委員建賓：我相信你們都有專業，你們都有做過這些紀錄，因為時間的關係，這個會後是不是再提供給本委員會來……"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員，但是請你讓我講完，因為三個原因，我必須要講完。","第二個原因是配重的關係，因為它是一個平底的快艇，它有兩部400匹非常重的propeller（舷外機）在後端，所以理論上這個船平常就是這樣翹起來的，另外，它還有一個收網機，在它的右側，所以它的配重就不正常，正常狀況下，它加了這樣子的配重會右傾，它又在高速又右傾。","第三個最重要的原因……"],["黃委員建賓：署長，謝謝……"],["周副主任委員美伍：第三個，最後一個原因，第三個最重要的原因……"],["黃委員建賓：我的時間剩下55秒，不好意思，我只是要強調一件事情而已……"],["周副主任委員美伍：他的操縱不良，他不會操船……"],["黃委員建賓：如果我們都有這些資料，請盡快公布，但是我們……"],["周副主任委員美伍：這個船長只開了不到10次船，這艘船他1月份才買來的……"],["黃委員建賓：好啦！你可以讓我講一下嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，所以他沒有執照。"],["黃委員建賓：署長，你剛才強調的是整個船的機械原理架構，我只是要問……"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，在最重要的案情部分真的需要說明。"],["黃委員建賓：你的軌跡能不能夠證明這樣的事情而已，我相信都在調查當中，也希望會後趕快把資料給我們委員會……"],["周副主任委員美伍：好，一定要。"],["黃委員建賓：我們也希望讓我們海巡弟兄執勤的時候除了能夠確保執勤的安全以外，也能夠還清自己的清白，我們絕對支持海巡弟兄依法行政，我們絕對支持！但是其實需要一個真相，也包括今天大家對我們弟兄們執勤的質疑……"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，我要提醒你，海巡署是屬於內政部，所以在我們內政委員會這邊來質詢，他不是軍隊，他是海上警察，他的執法必須小心，我也提醒主委，主委，這件事情不小心就會引起很大的爭端，這個造成的結果都不是在場所有委員樂意見的，今天不管是國民黨、民進黨或民眾黨，沒有人希望因為這件事情造成兩岸的升溫，而造成各行各業影響，這是本席要表達的，再次謝謝召委，謝謝主委，謝謝。"],["周副主任委員美伍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝建賓委員的質詢，也謝謝你們的答詢。","我在這邊提醒一下署長，您剛剛所回答委員的這些為什麼在你們今天的專案報告裡面沒有更細部的說？這個是我要譴責你們的，如果今天這個專案報告能夠把你們更細部的這些如同你剛剛所講的提供給委員們做參考，你剛剛不會浪費太多的時間，我先譴責你們並沒有把這個細部的資料交給委員會，下次不可以這樣子，好不好？謝謝！","繼續請牛煦庭委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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對不起我請委員支持海巡署改名對他們來講真的太重大了真的有需要對不起主委我要必須在這邊再糾正一下今天的狀況報告不是你們送來的狀況報告好不好謝謝主委我都已經講完這樣的你讓我下台你還這樣對不對"},{"start":180.666,"end":196.079,"text":"所以我們現在提到的就是這件事情整個最引發最大爭議的原因就是因為影像這件事情沒圖沒真相是沒圖沒真相所以對於基層執行的必須發想也非常不公平他們冒著生命危險"},{"start":197.18,"end":200.262,"text":"海巡署不是因為他們的過失造成災難我能夠請委員再回到上一頁嗎"},{"start":226.84,"end":252.513,"text":"抱歉抱歉抱歉因為海巡署的疏忽演變成災難真的很抱歉是所以這個災難這個事故我想不是因為海巡署的疏忽在登檢的過程中發生的事故我們現在在等檢調來釐清等檢察官來釐清謝謝那如果說是因為沒有錄影帶的部分我們真的是深深的感到抱歉"},{"start":253.593,"end":257.198,"text":"我再度也為別有錄影帶的事情深深地感到抱歉"},{"start":266.258,"end":287.024,"text":"主委,海巡署說我們缺乏露營器材,這造成問題。主委,海巡署說我們10噸級以下的巡邏艦艇、密錄器不是標配,因為這樣並沒有違規。我想這個是都把責任推到我們基層同仁的做法,完全要以第一線同仁來承擔這個風險。"},{"start":289.184,"end":313.269,"text":"如果今天沒有因為金門撞船事件這個意外發生我真的不知道海巡署同仁沒有佩戴密錄器那個幾個委員提到像那個學生委員提到這個在我們鄉下這警察執行基本的配備因為他不單單是要維護執行的安全他也要確保自己的安全所以密錄器是必備的應該是這樣吧"},{"start":315.771,"end":334.513,"text":"我們未來的勤務在這個部分勤務的裝備跟勤務的管理我們有一個全盤的策進的小組我們一定要落實委員的關心我們真的會痛加檢討因為主委剛才提到說主委上個一年多解決很多問題包括花了到90億去修那個船"},{"start":335.114,"end":335.134,"text":"黃建賓議員"},{"start":357.124,"end":380.203,"text":"金馬鵬分屬的部分我替他們找了100台那過年後才到所以當時那100台還沒有到所以密錄器我其實我就任以後也陸陸續續的在解決那有更大的問題替海巡署做了很重要很重要的問題的解決但是無論如何就這個部分真的接受"},{"start":380.763,"end":390.522,"text":"所有委員的指導跟指教我們一定要痛加檢討我們未來絕對不允許在勤務上沒有落實然後再發生這樣的事情"},{"start":392.073,"end":393.074,"text":"不過當天密錄器是夠的當天密錄器是夠的"},{"start":411.197,"end":435.985,"text":"所以我有說在我們的管理的勤務的落實的部分我們有很多細膩的地方要檢討但是當天他們就是依尋常的做法用這個攝影的器材來出勤而且他不是說我要去登檢怎麼會你要出發沒有密錄器不是而是他已經在海上用他尋常的標配在海上執勤的時候被調過來的"},{"start":440.547,"end":459.916,"text":"所以他用的就是標配就是我們在每一艘CP提醒上面所給的手持式的攝錄影集是但是沒有影片我我好來那個那個分署長想要更能夠了解事實好不好"},{"start":461.7,"end":479.227,"text":"報告委員我是艦隊分署的分署長廖德成這邊在特別的說明在特別的說明我們更簡的規定在密錄器的部分不一定是只有密錄器只要能夠全程錄音錄影的設備就好那就是要在"},{"start":479.747,"end":482.349,"text":"當時搖晃的程度讓他來不及因為追逐的時間就短短的那麼5分鐘而且是高速的40節的這個過程"},{"start":505.06,"end":505.32,"text":"那我們的"},{"start":533.851,"end":536.672,"text":"各位委員報告有沒有這個影像當然是其中讓我們了解案情當中的一環但是事證的還原其實不是光靠這個影像事證的還原有種種的跡證從船舶的跡證"},{"start":559.701,"end":561.384,"text":"主席,主席我剛才提的是"},{"start":572.5,"end":573.341,"text":"這個部分請署長來說明請署長"},{"start":595.679,"end":620.328,"text":"各位委員報告我想這一次整個有關陸船翻覆的原因依照我個人我們同仁第一時間在做這個現場的調查跟整個政務的一個現象來看我想主要有三個原因我想在這邊跟您做個報告第一個它是一個高速右轉這是第一個原因那麼這個高速右轉我們從這一個艇"},{"start":622.429,"end":648.007,"text":"他的這個車就是我們的加車就是他的速度他是推到底他的電門開關是開啟另外他的舵就是方向盤是打到右蠻舵這個右蠻舵就是向右轉到底就是如同我們這張這個圖片那這樣子的一個狀況他是高速右轉第二個主要的原因是他的配重"},{"start":649.258,"end":650.759,"text":"所以理論上這個船兩個弦外機在後端它平常就是這樣翹起來的"},{"start":678.305,"end":703.079,"text":"另外他還有一個這個收網機在他的右側所以正常上他的配重就不正常所以他正常狀況下他有加了這樣子的配重然後他會右傾他又在高速又右傾第三個最重要的原因第三個我最後一個原因第三個最重要的原因他的他的超船他不會超船但是這個船長"},{"start":707.421,"end":709.906,"text":"他只開了不到14船這艘船他1月份才買來的所以他沒有執照"},{"start":716.246,"end":740.615,"text":"部長你剛才講到是整個船的整個機械原理架構我只是要問說你的軌道能不能夠證明這樣事情而已我上面都在調查當中也希望會不會趕快把資料給我們委員會在那邊說一定要我們也希望讓國軍弟兄我們的海巡的弟兄執行的時候除了能夠確保執行的安全以外也能夠環境自由進來"},{"start":741.835,"end":762.933,"text":"我們絕對支持海巡弟兄依法行政我們絕對支持但是其實是需要一個真相也包括今天大家對我們弟兄的質詢的質疑是最後要提醒你啊 主委海巡署他是署內正部所以在我們內政委員會這邊的質詢他不是軍隊他是海上警察"},{"start":763.413,"end":763.533,"text":"謝謝建賓委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"149306","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149306","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd896ae9bc9ade19a74df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a67c50eb4124c018df5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:17:55 - 11:32:01","影片長度":"00:14:06","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":846,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:32:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:17:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":733,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時18分）主席、各位委員、各位官員，還有各位媒體，大家好。首先本席想請海委會管主委。"],["主席：有請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委好。首先本席想先就教育部重編的國語辭典修訂本來向您做一個簡單的教育，「撞」的其中一個意思就是碰擊，例如撞車，所以今天我們的題目金門撞船事件，這個碰撞的意思就是碰觸、撞擊。剛剛您在答詢牛煦庭委員的時候你也一直講碰觸，所以撞跟碰撞都是一種描述客觀事實的動詞，如果撞帶有故意的意思，那本席想請教，2020年1月2日空軍黑鷹直升機在新北烏來山區撞山失事，是故意的嗎？八八水災漂流木撞擊漁船致受災專案救助計畫，難道漂流木有意識，難道是故意的嗎？所以希望管主委，包含海委會、海巡單位不要在文字上去做過多的解釋。","其次，在海商法第三條，下列船舶除因碰撞外，不適用本法之規定，它也是用碰撞；海事報告規則第一條，本規則所稱海事，指船舶沉沒、擱淺、碰撞。所以這個部分希望管主委可以去查，不要自己想、自己對。","再來，本席也要再一次來譴責您擅改我們召委的專案報告題目，其實不只是不尊重立法院、不只是藐視國會，您更是毀憲亂政，是毀壞我們憲法的現行犯！所以本席還是在這裡要求您道歉認錯，可以嗎？現在！"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，這件事情發展到現在，我想……"],["徐委員欣瑩：停！你不用回答，你願不願意道歉認錯？"],["管主任委員碧玲：其實委員，從昨天我公開對社會……"],["徐委員欣瑩：道歉認錯！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我昨天……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你昨天發簡訊我們都看到……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我說太多次了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你說失禮……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我說太多次了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是今天的題目還是用你自己的定義。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我幾經斟酌兩個價值我必須要平衡的時候，我所致的意就是用這樣的方式來表達。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請暫停、請暫停、請暫停！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你昨天傳給我們的高金召委，你說失禮……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個之前就已經對外、新聞都……"],["徐委員欣瑩：結果今天的報告還是用你的這個題目，完全的、真的藐視國會，毀憲亂政。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我接受所有各種的指責。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，接下來本席要掌握時間，我們非常捍衛海巡的立場，剛剛海巡署也這樣說、您也這樣說，真正的捍衛就是要拿出證據、說明真相，所以本席要再次請教，檢方是否有查扣兩艘船的船舶軌跡資料，有沒有？"],["管主任委員碧玲：交給檢方的資料我們請分署長來說明……"],["徐委員欣瑩：等一下、等一下！我沒有要請分署長。"],["管主任委員碧玲：那是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：您身為海委會主委，發生這麼大的事……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：您應該知道大陸的漁船跟我們1051艇的船舶軌跡資料，我們臺灣這邊雷達資料或是兩艘船有沒有船舶軌跡資料、有沒有交給地檢署？本席就問這個問題。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟我報告的是有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有。"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前分署長跟我報告的是有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我現在要跟您確認，兩艘船都有嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：一起都交給地檢署、都交給地檢署。"],["徐委員欣瑩：兩艘船都有，好！各位，兩艘船的軌跡都有，我們是不是可以就軌跡的比對就知道到底有沒有碰撞？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，檢察官會根據船本身的事證……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，當然檢察官有檢察官認定，但是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：還有軌跡也好、還有筆錄也好，檢察官有非常非常多的事證可以去統合研判。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，對，當然、當然。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們大公無私、不偏不倚。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以委員我能不能說明？"],["徐委員欣瑩：不用、不用，不用你說明。"],["管主任委員碧玲：剛剛署長到今天……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在要捍衛我們海巡弟兄的立場，第一個，既然有船舶軌跡資料，我們就可以比對，這個部分就可以推翻你們一直擅改我們召委的題目，你就是強詞奪理，這第一個；第二個，本席想請教，媒體報導兩船接近，巡邏艇長下令登船檢查，中國快艇突然甩尾急轉、不讓海巡人員登船是否是事實？"],["管主任委員碧玲：所有的案情說明，委員，為什麼今天一直到現在我們署長才把剛剛講的三個原因說出來……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，好，OK，請暫停、請暫停！"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為從頭到尾所有的案情……"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果不暫停，我請主席暫停時間！"],["管主任委員碧玲：所有的案情都應該由檢察官來還原……"],["徐委員欣瑩：暫停時間！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我沒有要他講這個。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝，請暫停。"],["主席：請主委尊重一下委員的質詢。"],["徐委員欣瑩：剛剛我也有在聽，牛委員質詢的時候我們署長說的，一再地他只是在說明什麼？船為什麼會翻，但是我們現在要確認的是，當我們要下令登船檢查的時候，到底是不是中國快艇突然甩尾急轉、不讓海巡人員登船？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我從來就是一個態度……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以造成不小心碰撞或是不小心怎麼樣，然後才導致翻覆，你們是一直地強調為什麼會翻覆，我剛剛有聽，我聽得很清楚，所以不用再講，現在我的問題就是，是不是我們要下令登船檢查的時候，中國快艇突然甩尾急轉，這點你們海巡署應該早就知道這個情況，到底是不是？是否屬實？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我請委員能不能支持，我們冷靜、靜待司法調查的結果。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以，好，OK……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我一直都說，我們一定要對各種說法不偏不倚、大公無私。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那這一點到這邊，這樣我瞭解。"],["管主任委員碧玲：讓檢察官來還原真相，這是我的態度。"],["徐委員欣瑩：其實你的回復我們大家就知道，應該就是如此嘛。再來，有人說兩岸的默契，只要越界船駛離禁限水域，我們海巡人員就會返回執勤地區，當時其實是大陸快艇更深入了我方的海域，所以才發生追捕事件，這個情況是否屬實？應該是吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是，對。"],["管主任委員碧玲：在禁止水域內。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席要問，當天指揮CP-1051追緝作業的是艇長還是岸上指揮？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，這個事情……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你就回答，我這個是選擇題，那一天到底誰指揮這個追緝作業？是誰？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們在雷情上發現的時候就會有調度，然後整個的過程當然是船上的艇長，我是不是請我們分署長說明？"],["徐委員欣瑩：不用、不用，分署長不用，會浪費我的時間，本席為什麼問這一題？主委，你不用回答，本席為什麼問這一題？因為現在我們看到媒體報導，檢方以過失致人於死的這種法律責任、朝向這方面偵辦……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員、委員，這是一個司法上……"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然我不希望，因為我在挺我們海巡人員……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個最後……我們目前還是他字案。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不能讓海巡人員去擔這個法律責任。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們要知道是誰下的指令，按照剛剛我們主委所說的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們岸際通報……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那是我們艇長……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我們岸際通報的時候，巡防區就會調度，調度以後整個執法的過程……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以有艇長、也有岸上指揮，都有。"],["管主任委員碧玲：整個執法的過程不會去指揮他說，你這個是要驅離還……沒有那個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，我看到分署長……我們的署長已經點頭了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們請分署長來說明。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請暫停，沒有，署長已經點頭了……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有，委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：也就是……有、有、有，他點頭了！"],["主席：署長要不要正式上來回答一下？您點頭了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們為了瞭解真相……"],["主席：我們是不是請委員請署長上去點頭？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，我想還是請分署長說明，好嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：不用。"],["主席：不用，好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：啊，要站上來點頭，因為我看他站在那邊。"],["主席：因為他剛剛站在旁邊對於我們欣瑩委員點頭，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，署長，我沒有要你回答，我剛剛在講的時候，當天指揮CP-1051追緝作業的時候……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，不是從頭到尾一個長官在指揮喔，那是……"],["主席：來，請署長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對、對，沒有啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：那不是喔、那不是喔……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這中間一定有互通嘛，所以我們的艇長還有岸上指揮，大家就狀況然後來下令，所以那一天應該不是只有單一的指揮。"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然，這是一個連續動作。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，好，OK，這樣就可以了。"],["周副主任委員美伍：從勤指中心下達到海巡隊當天的駐隊長官，也就是副隊長……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，好。"],["周副主任委員美伍：然後再由副隊長下達到艦艇本身。"],["徐委員欣瑩：瞭解、瞭解，所以這中間的責任……"],["周副主任委員美伍：這個流程是一個連續……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們不希望……"],["周副主任委員美伍：勤指中心也會直接下令給1051。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以這個部分我們要瞭解，我們在挺海巡的弟兄。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，好，現在海委會堅持只有道義責任，那……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我從來沒有說……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們一直在追逐真相。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有喔，慰問金不是賠償是否屬實？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們一直希望司法能夠把這個真相真實地呈現，這個就是為什麼我們一直沒有對外說明的原因，我們不希望影響司法的判斷。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，OK，好，我們當然希望兼顧偵查不公開、兩岸互信、臺灣人民權益保障和未來兩岸協同執法繼續推動，我們還是希望海委會要釐清事實、向社會完整說明。"],["周副主任委員美伍：一定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：今天在報告的時候管主委有提到，因為現在兩岸雙方都互不信任，如果送請公正專業的第三方團體機構鑑定，管主委是否同意？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，我們也希望這樣做……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，海巡署會不會主動……"],["周副主任委員美伍：同時檢調已經在這樣做了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，專業的第三方，不是臺灣、也不是對岸喔。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們現在的專業第三方是由檢調來決定，他去請。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以是我們臺灣這邊，其實……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我不知道是哪邊。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你這樣怎麼讓大家可以相信？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，這是我國的司法制度。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那海巡署所以你們不是請……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們非常希望如此。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是請公正的第三方……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們希望請公正的第三方。"],["徐委員欣瑩：非臺灣、非大陸。"],["周副主任委員美伍：都可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：都可以，好。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們都可以，因為這是一個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：海巡署會不會主動提出申請？海巡署會不會主動提出申請？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們已經請檢調單位能夠請公正的第三方把這樣子的一個海上的物理、海事的現象跟物理的碰撞，或者是任何一個擦撞，或者是水流的影響，或者是船速的影響，或者是船型的影響……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，請你暫停、請你暫停。"],["周副主任委員美伍：各種狀況，它會依據專家來衡定這個結果。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後本席要說，管主委，你位高權重，出入有隨扈，安全無虞，但是現在的金門撞船事件，造成金門海域附近的民間區漁會跟漁民朋友只能尋求自保，所以我們看到……"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員，我想這個可能……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們看到……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我不認為這是實情。"],["徐委員欣瑩：看到金門區漁會的資訊宣導，有沒有？中國海警18日宣布加強海上執法……"],["周副主任委員美伍：這不是事實。"],["徐委員欣瑩：兩岸處於敏感時刻……"],["周副主任委員美伍：報告委員，我必須要強調……"],["徐委員欣瑩：請漁民朋友切勿越界作業……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們要強調……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以本席想說的是……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們依然在執法……"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席想說的是，我們……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們日常的勤務從來沒有一天停止過，從事發到現在，我們沒有一天停止勤務過……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對、對、對……"],["周副主任委員美伍：同時我們不斷地提醒漁民……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望你們繼續的執法合法。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們為海巡鼓掌，但是如果未來檢察官起訴，我想請問我們的管主委，如果到時候真的有這種過失致死，您要如何自保？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我今天所說的第一點……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你會不會辭職？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我今天所說的第一點……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你會不會辭職？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我今天所說的第一點已經非常地清楚，本案有待我們國家的司法制度來釐清……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望……"],["管主任委員碧玲：釐清責任，毋枉毋縱，這是我們的態度。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，當然，我們大家都希望，而且我們希望是沒有擦槍走火，所以我們希望管主委，您一定要為整個事件想得周全，你不要再如此的態度強硬，而且我們希望能夠為兩岸……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的善意無以復加，我們真的呼籲大家能不能一起……"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢，時間到了……"],["管主任委員碧玲：呼籲對方也讓這件事情回歸人道。"],["主席：也謝謝管主委。","繼續請蘇巧慧委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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非常謝謝 請所有尊重一下委員的質詢剛剛我也有在聽 牛委員質詢的時候我們署長說的 一再的他只是在說明什麼 船為什麼會翻但是我們現在要確認的是"},{"start":385.665,"end":410.709,"text":"當我們要這個下令登船檢查的時候那到底是不是中國快艇突然甩尾急轉不讓海巡人員登船所以造成不小心碰撞或是不小心怎麼樣然後才導致翻覆你們是一直的強調為什麼會翻覆我剛剛有聽我聽得很清楚所以不用再講現在我的問題就是是不是"},{"start":412.148,"end":413.889,"text":"其實你的回覆我們大家就知道那應該就是如此嘛"},{"start":441.989,"end":464.454,"text":"那再來我們這個有人說兩岸的默契只要這個船越界船使離境線水域我們海巡人員就會返回執勤地區那當時其實是大陸快艇他更深入了我方的海域所以才發生追捕事件那這個情況是否屬實"},{"start":465.674,"end":468.999,"text":"本席要問當天指揮CP1051追緝作業的是庭長還是岸上指揮?"},{"start":480.776,"end":484.298,"text":"主委你不用回答本席為什麼問這一題因為現在我們看到媒體報導"},{"start":509.89,"end":524.493,"text":"檢方他以過失致人於死的這種法律責任朝向這方面申辦當然我們不希望因為我在庭我們海巡人員不能讓海巡人員去擔這個法律責任所以我們要知道"},{"start":524.893,"end":548.762,"text":"是誰下的指令所以按照剛剛我們主委所說的那是我們庭長委員我們按記通報的時候循環區就會調度調度以後整個執法的過程所以有庭長也有按上指揮整個執法的過程不會去指揮他說你這個是要提離還是沒有那個我們請教署長說明一下請站你沒有署長已經點頭了"},{"start":553.325,"end":554.046,"text":"徐欣瑩,我剛剛在講的時候"},{"start":570.048,"end":587.415,"text":"當天指揮CP1051追緝作業的時候,委員請...不是從頭到尾一個長官在指揮嗎?那是...對對對有啊,所以這中間一定有互通嘛,然後所以我們的庭長還有岸上指揮,大家就狀況,然後來下令,所以那一天應該是..."},{"start":588.675,"end":588.815,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":619.555,"end":625.678,"text":"我們一直希望司法能夠把這個真相真實的呈現這個就是為什麼我們一直沒有對外說明的原因我們不希望影響司法的判斷"},{"start":634.741,"end":653.522,"text":"我們當然希望我們兼顧偵查不公開兩岸互信台灣人民權益保障和未來兩岸協同執法繼續推動那我們還是希望海委會要釐清事實向社會完整說明那今天在報告的時候這個管主委有提到"},{"start":654.503,"end":668.287,"text":"因為現在呢,我們雙方,兩岸雙方都會不信任,如果送請公正專業的第三方團體機構鑑定,管主委是否同意?是,我們也希望這樣做。"},{"start":672.308,"end":672.568,"text":"海巡署"},{"start":691.576,"end":700.963,"text":"我們非常希望不是請公正的第三方我們希望請公正的第三方非台灣非大陸都可以我們都可以因為這是一個我們已經請"},{"start":706.087,"end":706.567,"text":"最後本席要說"},{"start":726.994,"end":747.628,"text":"管主委,你位高權重,出入有隨乎,安全無虞但是,現在我們這個金門撞船事件,造成我們金門海域附近民間的漁會跟漁民朋友只能尋求自保"},{"start":748.268,"end":749.749,"text":"報告委員,我必須要強調,我們依然在執法"},{"start":770.956,"end":773.078,"text":"我們希望你們繼續的執法合法我們為海巡鼓掌但是如果"},{"start":788.67,"end":817.335,"text":"未來檢察官起訴那我想請問我們管主委如果到時候真的有這種過失致死那您要如何治保你會不會辭職我今天所說的第一點已經非常的清楚本案有待於我們國家的司法制度來釐清您經責任勿萬勿眾這是我們的責任對當然我們大家都希望而且我們希望是沒有擦槍走火"},{"start":817.955,"end":839.102,"text":"所以我們希望管主委您一定要為我們這個整個事件你要想的周全你不要再如此的這個態度強硬而且我們希望能夠為兩岸﹗我們的順利無以復加我們真的呼籲大家能不能一起呼籲對方也讓這件事情回歸人道好也謝謝管主委謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149305","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149305","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd1b012fca7756dacf4df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a621a9fc2fa37df4075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:03:19 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11:17:39","影片長度":"00:14:20","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":860,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:17:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:03:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":586,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時3分）謝謝主席。有請海委會主委。"],["主席：請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：牛委員早！"],["牛委員煦庭：在開始質詢之前我們還是要把話講清楚，因為連給一份報告的內容都可以避重就輕，本席是覺得非常失望！這是我們很多新科委員第一次站上委員會發言的質詢臺，但前面就惹出這麼多的風波，我想海委會主委責無旁貸，我舉個例子來講，召委已經明確的排案，也把會議的名稱告訴大家，連外面不屬於內政委員會直接監管的國防部都願意尊重內政委員會的排案權力，直接去寫金門撞船案的報告，結果你們海委會自己在那邊更改名稱，還發臉書，只跟召委講，也不跟委員溝通，前面剛剛程序發言也有講，有其他例子都是協調過後，大家都願意各退一步，可是像你這樣子跳過去，還在臉書上直接寫的，也算是聞所未聞啦！陸委會也很油條，就乾脆寫這就是個會議，也不寫標題，反正方法總是很多啦！我只是覺得國防部比你們更重視內政委員會這件事情，你們應該要好好回去檢討啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為有海巡署的立場必須捍衛，請委員能夠支持。"],["牛委員煦庭：你講得真好啊！要開始我們的質詢就是因為要捍衛海巡的立場，我告訴你，在場每一個立法委員都非常支持基層依法行政，這件事情沒有人質疑……"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是撞船事件對他們來講……"],["牛委員煦庭：我還沒有請你回答，我會給你時間，好不好？主委，你先聽我把話講完。","為什麼我們都講要支持執法？這就是因為我們要支持基層依法行政，所以今天才要排這個專案報告，我第一個要請問主委的問題是，我們現在每一次這些爭議的海域有那麼多的船隻進進出出，請問平常海巡在執法的時候是以驅離為原則，還是以登船檢查為原則？請主委回答。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我今天最新的資料沒有在手中，但是根據事發當天我們今年驅離213艘才扣留了4艘，驅離213艘扣留的才只有4艘，我想委員從這個數字可以知道……"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講……"],["管主任委員碧玲：執法有執法的依法行政種種規定……"],["牛委員煦庭：有依法行政的界限……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，沒錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我現在就要問你，在這邊把話講清楚，什麼時候要驅離？什麼時候要上船登檢？有沒有SOP？"],["管主任委員碧玲：三無是絕對扣留，三無是法有明文規定，兩岸人民關係條例明文規定，三無船、無名船，百分之百我們就是一定要經過登檢以後處理……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我們把話講清楚，當然，既然是要登船、要扣留，對不對？所以就越追越近了，是不是？當初的狀況就是這樣，是不是？"],["管主任委員碧玲：登檢的過程就是一個不斷調整靠近、調整靠近、持續會有碰觸的過程，委員，我們的同仁在那種過程中跳上船是有可能被夾到的……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的同仁還三根指頭被夾斷，我們的同仁……"],["牛委員煦庭：三根指頭被夾斷……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的同仁一直受傷……"],["牛委員煦庭：在這件事情上？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不是，在所有登檢的事件當中……"],["牛委員煦庭：喔！你要講清楚耶！我告訴……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們有很多這樣的傷痕在身上……"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，在國際海巡的執法慣例上，通常如果要停船受檢，當然就會比較有衝突性，也比較有危險性，甚至很多地方會做失能性射擊，甚至考慮擊沉，碰撞其實是這個執法的替代方案……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們沒有……"],["牛委員煦庭：我還沒有問你……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：你不要再這樣，這很過分，好不好？所以我們用靠近的方式，有的時候可能會有碰撞，本來就是在所難免的事情，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：是，對不對？我跟你講，我們今天把這個話講清楚就是因為我們無意要指責基層，但是總要知道真相，你要先知道真相，才能尋求善了，所以剛剛很多委員都很關心有沒有密錄器，我告訴你，有沒有密錄器影響的是什麼？影響是什麼？沒有密錄器的話，會影響什麼？會造成什麼後果？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們會比較迅速地對於案情有比較多的瞭解，這一點我們痛加檢討，而且也成立了小組，在未來如何確實落實的部分還有整個過程我們都會做全盤的檢討。"],["牛委員煦庭：我告訴主委，108年大概也是在這裡開會，雖然那時候本席還不是立法委員，但那個時候大概也是因為海巡執法的關係，內政委員會就作成決議，2個月以內要研議處理，讓大家都有密錄器。108年就講要把這個品質提升起來，到了現在還會發生這樣的事，然後完全沒有畫面，主委，我告訴你，沒有密錄器、沒有畫面影響的就是基層的權益啊！因為我們現在連話都講不清楚，連話都講不清楚的時候，我們怎麼幫基層執法人員講話？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這確實是保護雙方，所以我們會痛加檢討……"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在講痛加檢討，現在就是痛加檢討，我痛加檢討、我承受指責，現在臺灣的政治這麼好搞就對了！在整件事情上，包含……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這不好搞，這非常不好搞。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委今天稍早開會的時候還講我一肩扛起，這話講得多好聽啊！現在只要被罵，就講一肩扛起，這麼簡單嗎？請問這件事情發生到現在誰負責了？負起了什麼政治責任？付出了什麼代價？請你回答。"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，海巡依法行政取締三無船舶，造成意外沒有他們的過失，剛剛署長所說三大原因，委員，我們沒有對外……"],["牛委員煦庭：你不要帶風向。"],["管主任委員碧玲：不是，我如果要帶風向，早就在社會上把這些事情說出去了，為什麼忍辱負重到今天不得不說……"],["牛委員煦庭：還忍辱負重，真厲害！"],["管主任委員碧玲：為什麼到今天不得不說？過去為什麼不說……"],["牛委員煦庭：我為什麼講你在帶風向你知道嗎？因為我沒有在講基層……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我一直告訴他們這是片面之詞，要檢察官去還原……"],["牛委員煦庭：我講的是你的管理失當嘛！我講你的管理失當，我講你該上去的裝備沒有準時上去嘛！你的管理上是你高層的事情……"],["管主任委員碧玲：標配在船上，標配在船上……"],["牛委員煦庭：不是基層的事情嘛！出事的時候……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，標配在船上。"],["牛委員煦庭：出事的時候，管理階層就要檢討，就要有人負起政治責任，現在問題之所以大家講成這樣就是因為沒有人負起政治責任嘛！大家期待你知所進退、有所作為也是因為這樣嘛！然後你今天永遠都把基層……"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為沒有錄影的事情……"],["牛委員煦庭：推到第一線去擋子彈……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有，我從來保護他們到現在……"],["牛委員煦庭：這就是今天大家對這件事情這麼不愉快的原因嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：本席從來保護他們到現在，此時此刻我還在保護他們。"],["牛委員煦庭：還本席耶！換位置了都搞不清楚。","進第二部分，根據海巡署召開的海巡署金門0214專案小組記者會，第九海巡隊副隊長陳建文報告時坦承執法期間兩船有碰撞；金門地檢署2月20號對外說明，主任檢察官施家榮表示，訊問金門海巡隊，執勤隊員表示，當時雙方高速行駛，對方不斷蛇行，雙方不慎發生碰撞，大陸快艇當場翻覆。我剛剛前面已經幫你講了，你竟然說，因為我不要射擊，我以碰撞的方式處理，這是一種選擇，所以碰撞是執法的常態。地檢署也講，你們自己海巡裡面的人也講，那就有嘛！有就是有。"],["管主任委員碧玲：碰撞和撞船不一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：碰撞跟撞船不一樣？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們請專業來說明好嗎？碰撞和撞船是不是一樣，我們能不能讓我們的分署長用最專業的角度來跟委員……"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，你今天想要在這邊鬼扯這個我沒有意見，但是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我沒有鬼扯，我是請分署長來說明專業的……"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在最大的問題，我現在檢討你整件事情的處遇，第一時間你講它蛇行翻覆，然後後來被人家這樣一講出來之後，你就講有碰撞，你現在在那邊爭執什麼叫撞船、什麼叫碰撞，你是很無聊的，社會大眾要知道的是到底有沒有碰在一起，有沒有碰撞，結論就是有。現在到底有或沒有？你回答我這個就好了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們請分署長來回答。"],["廖分署長德成：報告委員，我們在執行登檢的過程裡面，兩船會擦撞、碰撞這個都是一個常態，至於說碰撞的大小會不會影響到它翻覆的狀況，這個由地檢署在做一個確認。我們在登檢，碰撞、擦撞都是常態。"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在講常態，所以就回到我剛剛講的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以委員，當我第一時間看到海巡對外做那樣的說明的時候，事後我瞭解，在海巡的語言裡面，登檢就是包含一個持續碰撞的過程，所以他們用那樣的語言來講的時候，事實上跟社會溝通的語言不一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你在這邊就等於是承認有碰撞嘛！對不對？現在就有碰撞嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：那是一個持續碰觸的過程……"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛只問你有或沒有而已，就有嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：那確實是一個持續碰觸的過程……"],["牛委員煦庭：持續碰撞的狀態，所以就有嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：那你前面為什麼不講呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個東西登檢是必然……"],["牛委員煦庭：你前面為什麼不講呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個海巡第一時間沒有講，所以我替他們來講的時候，委員，當碰撞的事實要說明，又沒有錄影帶，要一起說明的時候，那絕對是一個跟社會溝通的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，你知道社會大眾現在怎麼解釋這件事嗎？一開始說他們蛇行翻覆，所以我們的執法人員幹得好，後來講到完蛋有碰撞，可能這事有爭議，後來你最近因為專案報告的名稱……"],["管主任委員碧玲：登檢蛇行是……"],["牛委員煦庭：你又要堅持沒有碰撞，然後你現在在這裡回答我的時候你又說有碰撞，這叫顛三倒四。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我沒有堅持沒有碰撞過，對案情我從頭到尾都說……"],["牛委員煦庭：這個事情我看還有得講。"],["管主任委員碧玲：海巡署的說法我必須不偏不倚、大公無私讓檢察官去還原事實。"],["牛委員煦庭：光是你的反反覆覆就讓這件事情更加複雜。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我沒有反反覆覆，我被說成反反覆覆，我從來沒有反反覆覆……"],["牛委員煦庭：處理這些事情中間的顛三倒四、進退失據……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我從來沒有……"],["牛委員煦庭：就是這件事情可能上升到政治衝突的最重要的原因嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，認知作戰加諸於我身，我承受下來，但是我是不接受的。"],["牛委員煦庭：主席，對不起，時間暫停一下。"],["主席：我們請主委對相關委員的質詢再回應好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：一個三大報之一的社論都還說我指示海巡署可以直接對海警船開火……"],["主席：我們時間暫停一下……"],["管主任委員碧玲：認知作戰做到這種地步，我是不接受的，我承受，連一個報紙的社論都可以造謠到這種地步，說我下令海巡署可以對海警船直接開火……"],["主席：主委，麻煩你一下，你這些想要說的話在你個人的臉書說好不好？今天我們所有的委員沒有質詢你這個部分，謝謝。請你就不要再回答問題，因為牛委員沒有問你這個問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，尊重一下立法委員的質詢權，前面已經不尊重召委的排案權，現在又要不尊重立法委員的質詢權……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有，我……"],["牛委員煦庭：這裡是你答詢的場合，不是你開記者會的場合，你搞清楚啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是錯誤的指責我一定要澄清……"],["牛委員煦庭：第三部分我要接著問……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這樣其實才是三權分立的……"],["牛委員煦庭：第三部分我要接著問，這個也要請一下陸委會主委，可能要一起說明，麻煩你，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請邱主委。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在的狀況是中共國臺辦發表立場，直接宣示禁止水域不存在，它不是嘴巴講而已，現在人家海警船也進來了，進來之後愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞，我們看巡航軌跡感覺還蠻順暢的，就好像照它規劃的這樣繞了好幾圈一樣，今天來一下，明天又來一下，好像非常態變成常態，本席非常擔心。我們都支持海巡執法，但我們也支持執法不分對象，剛剛你講針對三無魚船我們甚至要登船臨檢，這是你的SOP，我們當然覺得沒有問題，我們剛剛在討論的是你在處理整件事情的時候進退失據，讓一件意外變成政治風暴，這是高層、這是你們這些管理單位無能的地方。現在我們要看的是接下來可能會發生什麼事，現在狀況是海警船登堂入室，先請管主委再回答一下，請問海巡是要處理，還是不處理？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我建議這個問題由署長來回答，我們要知道的是最專業、最真實的事，為什麼不讓署長回答呢？"],["牛委員煦庭：我時間有限，我給你30秒，請。"],["主席：我們有請署長，謝謝。"],["周副主任委員美伍：非常感謝委員給我這個機會說明，我就單就這個問題來回答。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，海警你要怎麼辦？"],["周副主任委員美伍：海警船，目前從2月14號發生這件事情以後，他們每天刻意的在白天平均有6到7艘，曾經有高達過11艘，不僅海警船，還有海監船，還有公務船，還有海巡船，所以他們的意圖就是圍繞著金門。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，它進來了，處理不處理？要不要處理？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們都在處理，每一次都有處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：怎麼處理？有沒有驅離？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們有驅離。"],["牛委員煦庭：為什麼沒有影響他們的航跡？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們當然有，我們的船就是一直跟他對應著，我們在我們的禁止水域內對他們不斷地廣播跟驅離，這些我都可以……"],["牛委員煦庭：因為時間有限啦！署長，你把處遇的方式跟結果用書面的方式回復本席。"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為我們應該還會再討論這一題。"],["周副主任委員美伍：會，我會給你。"],["牛委員煦庭：我把最後25秒留給陸委會主委，一樣，我們要求書面。"],["主席：請邱主委。"],["牛委員煦庭：禁止跟限制水域是不是兩岸雙方的默契？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上從81年10月國防部根據兩岸條例公布了禁限制水域，這個禁限制水域30幾年來雙方都有這樣的默契。"],["牛委員煦庭：有默契嘛！出現歧異的時候怎麼處理？有沒有處遇方式？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上我想海巡單位都有它的SOP……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有，我講的是兩岸之間有沒有做協商跟討論？"],["邱主任委員太三：他們都有一個處理的機制……"],["牛委員煦庭：署長，不要打斷，我剛剛已經跟你講你書面回答就好。陸委會的最後一個問題，如果我們現在講說遇到這樣子的問題，海巡署長在你後面，請問你是支持他強力執法，還是你要呼籲他冷靜一點？"],["邱主任委員太三：我想當然支持他執法。"],["牛委員煦庭：強力執法？"],["邱主任委員太三：但是不是強力……"],["牛委員煦庭：是不是強力？"],["邱主任委員太三：本來狀況不同啊！因為我們現在沒有辦法假設到底是三無船，還是一般的漁船，還是貨輪……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有，我講海警船，中共的船。"],["邱主任委員太三：那我想他們都有SOP，我們的國軍也有……"],["牛委員煦庭：變成有SOP。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，他們有SOP，所有的狀況不同，我們沒有辦法現在一一回答。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為時間有限嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：剛剛按照情況來處理……"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，你剛剛有聽清楚我的問題嗎？一個是雙方默契，第二，認知出現歧異的時候是怎麼處理，兩岸現在遇到這樣的狀況，你的危機處理是什麼？第三個是執法，剛剛的這三個問題，一樣請你會後用書面回復本席，可以嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：好，可以，我請海巡彙整。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，前期未充分準備，中期處理進退失據，第三，事後方向不明確，該有人負起政治責任，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢，也謝謝所有官員的回答，請不要忘記，剛剛委員所提的，你們有些書面報告請你們儘速提到本委員會，然後給我們所有本委員會的委員來參考，謝謝。","繼續請徐欣瑩委員，但是跟委員報告一下，待會王美惠委員詢答完之後，我們休息5分鐘讓大家上洗手間，謝謝。有請欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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對不對是嘛 對不對我跟你講我們今天把這話講清楚就是因為我們沒有無意要指責基層啊但是總要知道真相嘛你要先知道真相才能尋求善了所以剛剛很多委員都很關心有沒有密錄器我告訴你有沒有密錄器影響的是什麼"},{"start":243.804,"end":259.046,"text":"影響是什麼?沒有密錄器的話會影響什麼?會造成什麼後果?我們會比較迅速的對於案情有比較多的了解這一點我們痛加檢討而且也成立了小組在未來如何確實的落實的部分還有整個過程我們都會做全盤的檢討"},{"start":260.27,"end":285.079,"text":"我告訴主委108年大概也是在這裡開會雖然那時候本席還不是立法委員但那個時候大概也是因為海巡執法的關係內政委員會就做成決議兩個月以內要研議要處理讓大家都有密錄器108年就要講說把這個品質提升起來到了現在還會發生這樣的事情然後完全沒有畫面主委我告訴你沒有密錄器沒有畫面影響的就是基層的權益因為我們現在連話都講不清楚"},{"start":288.64,"end":316.844,"text":"連話都講不清楚的時候我們怎麼幫基層執法人員講話這確實是保護雙方所以我們會痛加減討所以你現在講痛加減討現在就是痛加減討我痛加減討我承受指責現在台灣政治這麼好搞就對了在整件事情上包含主委今天稍早開會的時候在講我一肩扛起這話講得多好聽啊現在講一肩扛起只要被罵就叫一肩扛起這麼簡單嗎請問這件事情發生到現在誰負責了負起了什麼政治責任付出了什麼代價請你回答"},{"start":319.295,"end":328.327,"text":"海巡依法行政取締三無傳播,造成意外沒有他們的過失。剛剛署長所說三大原因。"},{"start":332.793,"end":334.154,"text":"我講的是你的管理示範嘛"},{"start":349.06,"end":371.126,"text":"我講你的管理失當我講你該上去的裝備沒有準時上去嘛你的管理失當是高層的事情不是基本的事情嘛出事的時候管理階層就要檢討就要有人負起政治責任現在問題之所以大家講成這樣就是因為沒有人負起政治責任嘛大家期待你之所進退有所作為也是因為這樣嘛"},{"start":372.206,"end":373.287,"text":"本席從來保護他們到現在,此時此刻我還在保護他們。"},{"start":388.072,"end":410.224,"text":"根據海巡署召開的海巡署金門2014專案小組記者會,第9號海巡隊副隊長陳建文報告是坦承執法期間兩船有碰撞。金門地檢署2月20日對外說明,主任檢察官施嘉榮表示,詢問金門海巡隊執行隊員表示,張獅雙方高速行駛,退方不斷蛇行,雙方不慎發生碰撞,大陸快艇當場翻覆。"},{"start":411.084,"end":427.224,"text":"我剛剛前面已經幫你講了你既然說因為我不要涉及我以碰撞的方式處理這是一種選擇所以碰撞是執法的常態地檢署也講你們自己海巡裡面的人也講那就有嘛有就是有碰撞跟撞船不一樣碰撞跟撞船不一樣我們請專業來說明好嗎"},{"start":428.866,"end":443.717,"text":"碰撞和撞船是不是一樣我們能不能讓我們的分署長用最專業的角度你今天想要在這邊鬼扯這個我沒有意見我是請分署長要來說明你現在最大的問題我現在在檢討你整件事情的處遇你第一時間你講他蛇行蕃婦"},{"start":445.518,"end":445.839,"text":"分署長回答"},{"start":463.311,"end":479.264,"text":"發委員我們在執行登檢的過程裡面兩船會擦撞碰撞這個都是一個常態至於說碰撞的大小會不會影響到它翻覆的狀況這個由地檢署再做一個確認那我們在登檢這個碰撞擦撞這個都是一個常態"},{"start":480.385,"end":482.446,"text":"所以你在這邊等於是承認有碰撞嗎?"},{"start":504.312,"end":505.172,"text":"這個海巡第一時間沒有講所以我替他們來講的時候"},{"start":520.077,"end":537.287,"text":"委員當碰撞的事實要說明又沒有錄影帶要一起說明的時候主委啊那絕對是一個跟社會溝通的問題你知道社會大眾現在怎麼解釋這件事嗎一開始說他們蛇行蕃赴所以我們的執法院幹好一開始後來講到哇完蛋了有碰撞可能這次有爭議"},{"start":537.907,"end":545.77,"text":"後來你最近因為專案報告的名稱你又要堅持沒有碰撞然後你現在在這裡回答我的時候你又說有碰撞這叫顛三倒四啦各位我從來沒有對案情對案情我從頭到尾都說這個事情我剛還有得講啦我必須不偏不倚大公無私讓檢察官去還原實施光是你的反反復復啊就讓這件事情更加複雜"},{"start":560.275,"end":564.536,"text":"主席,對不起,時間暫停一下。好,我們請主委的對相關的委員會執行在周一,好不好?好,謝謝,我們暫停暫停委員的這個,我們時間暫停一下。"},{"start":589.924,"end":602.347,"text":"我承受,連一個報紙的社論都可以造謠到這種地步,說我下令海巡署可以對海警船直接開火。這是大報社會,我要說的,但我在臉書說也會被,也會被淘汰啊。"},{"start":610.249,"end":627.623,"text":"請你就不要再回答問題,因為牛委員沒有問你這個問題,謝謝尊重一下立法委員的諮詢權啦,前面已經不尊重趙薇的排案權,現在又要不尊重立法委員的諮詢權這裡是你答詢的場合,不是你開記者會的場合,你搞清楚啊第三部分我要接著問啦第三部分我要接著問啦現在,我這個也要請一下陸委會主委,可能要一起說明好不好,麻煩你,謝謝請崔主委"},{"start":636.821,"end":661.488,"text":"現在狀況 中共國台辦發表立場啦 直接宣誓說這個禁止水域不存在他不是嘴巴講而已啊 現在人家海警船也進來啦進來的時候 愛怎麼搞怎麼搞 我們看那個巡航軌跡感覺還蠻順暢的就好像照他規劃的這樣子繞了好幾圈一樣今天來一下 明天又來一下 好像非常態變成常態本席非常擔心啦 我們都支持海巡執法"},{"start":662.068,"end":686.935,"text":"但我們也支持執法不分對象剛剛你講針對山無漁船 對不對我們這甚至要登船臨檢這是你的SOP我們當然覺得沒有問題 對不對我們剛剛在討論的是你在處理整件事情的時候進退失據讓一件意外變成政治風暴這是高層這是你們在管理單位無能的地方現在我們要看的是接下來可能會發生什麼事啊現在狀況是海警船登堂入室啊"},{"start":687.415,"end":691.94,"text":"請問問海巡先請管主委再回答一下海巡是要處理呢還是不處理委員我建議這個問題由署長來回答我們要知道的是最專業最真實的事為什麼不讓署長回答呢我時間有限我給你30秒請好我們有請署長謝謝"},{"start":710.072,"end":739.373,"text":"非常感謝委員給我這個機會說明我想你現在剛剛我就單就這個問題來回答對 這個海警船你要怎麼辦海警船現在目前從2月14號以後發生這件事情以後他們每天刻意的在白天平均在6到7艘那曾經有高達過11艘不僅海警船還有海監船還有公務船還有海巡船所以他們的意圖就是圍繞著金門對 他進來了處理不處理"},{"start":739.933,"end":760.227,"text":"我們都在處理每一次都有處理有沒有驅離我們有驅離為什麼沒有影響他們的航跡我們當然有我們的船就是一直跟他對應著我們在我們的禁止水域內對他們不斷的廣播跟驅離這些我都可以提查你把船域的方式跟結構出面的方式我可以提答沒有問題沒有問題因為我們應該還會再討論這題好不好會我會點擊把最後25秒留給陸委會主委一樣"},{"start":764.29,"end":790.777,"text":"我們要求書明這個禁止跟禁制水域是不是兩岸雙方的默契基本上從81年10月那國防部根據兩岸條例他公布了禁限制水域那這個禁限制水域30幾年來雙方都有這樣的有默契嘛對不對出現歧異的時候怎麼處理有沒有處理方式基本上我想海巡單位都有他的SOP沒有我講的是兩岸之間有沒有做協商跟討論"},{"start":792.838,"end":806.359,"text":"他們都有一個處理的基礎...主委喂!不是,署長你不要打斷我,我剛已經跟你講你書面就好,如果我們現在講說遇到這樣子的問題,海軍署長在你後面,請問你是支持他強力執法,還是你要呼籲他冷靜一點?"},{"start":807.941,"end":825.554,"text":"我想當然支持他執法 但是是不是強力不是 它本來狀況不同啊因為我們現在沒有辦法假設到底是珊瑚船還是一般的漁船還是貨船沒有我想海警船 中共的船中共的船那我想他們都有SOP我們的國軍有SOP所有的狀況不同 我們沒有辦法現在一一的"},{"start":830.618,"end":857.965,"text":"主委,你剛剛有聽清楚我的問題嗎?一個是,是不是雙方默契?第二,認知出現歧異的時候是怎麼處理?你跟兩岸,就現在遇到這樣的狀況,你的委屈處理是什麼?第三個是執法,剛剛有問你這三個,一樣我請你會後用書面回覆本席,可以嗎?主委,前期未充分準備,中期處理進退失據第三,事後方向不明確,該有人負起政治責任,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149304","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149304","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd61afbe2af26f938e4df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a61d50f808a30dc8d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:49:29 - 11:02:44","影片長度":"00:13:15","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":795,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:02:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T10:49:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":510,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時49分）主席、在場的各位委員先進、主委及現場所有的媒體朋友，大家早。我想要請教一下我們的海洋……"],["主席：海巡署的署長嗎？"],["黃委員建賓：海洋委員會的主委。"],["主席：好，請海洋委員會的管主委，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：主委早安。主委，以前我對你印象都是在電視上，那是在擔任立委的時候，主委給我的印象就是專業而且溫柔，但是問題都尖銳，身為一個民意代表非常的成功，今天我也看到功力不減。但還是提醒一下主委，我想換了位置就換個腦袋是正常的，但是我相信依主委這麼資深的經歷，也應該知道要尊重立法權這件事情，就不會發生我們早上這麼多的話題。我來委員會的第一天，張宏陸委員就說我們的傳統是很peace、內政委員很peace，那我也想說應該是會很開心的在這裡來共同解決我們民眾的需求，沒想到今天一開會就看到現場這麼多的媒體跟朋友。當然，一個題目的變更會造成很大的話題，甚至它可能是引發起兩岸的問題，我希望主委這邊，未來我們能夠就這個部分儘量避免不要再發生。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我希望這個案件未來我們無論如何能夠避免再發生，所以這樣的爭議應該也就不會發生，前提是這件事情真的太重大，我謝謝委員的包容。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委，有時候還是要尊重一下我們的委員，也是要有立場。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是啦！海巡的立場實在是要支持。"],["黃委員建賓：你看我到現在都不小心講錯，都叫委員，其實要叫主委啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：主任委員也有「委員」兩個字，謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：我簡單的說，針對這次的金門撞船事件，其實發生大概就是兩個原因……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對不起，請委員支持海巡署改名，對他們來講真的太重大了，真的有需要。"],["主席：對不起主委，我必須要在這邊再糾正一下，今天的專案報告不是你們送來的專案報告，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：對啦！主委我都已經講成這樣了，你讓我好下台，你還這樣，對不對？我們現在提到的就是，整個引發最大爭議的原因就是因為影像這件事情，沒圖沒真相。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["黃委員建賓：沒圖沒真相，所以對於基層執勤的弟兄來講也非常的不公平，他們冒著生命危險在捍衛我們主權的同時、保護我們臺灣人民的同時，他必須因為沒有錄影設備而去背起這個責任，這個部分我覺得會後我們可以來討論……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對不起，錄影設備跟災難是兩件事，剛剛這個第一點恐怕是不是請委員能夠釐清，海巡署不是因為他們的過失造成災難，我能夠請委員再回到上一頁嗎？抱歉、抱歉、抱歉，因為海巡署的疏忽演變成災難，真的很抱歉，所以這個災難、這個事故，我想不是因為海巡署的疏忽，在登檢的過程中發生的事故，我們現在在等檢調來釐清、等檢察官來釐清，謝謝。如果說是因為沒有錄影帶的部分，我們真的是深深地感到抱歉，我再度也為沒有錄影帶的事情深深地感到抱歉。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝主委。","主委，海巡署說因為我們缺乏錄影器材造成問題，海巡署說我們十噸級以下的巡邏艦艇，密錄器不是標配，因為這樣並沒有違規，我想這個是都把責任推到我們基層同仁的作法啦！完全要第一線同仁來承擔這個風險，我想今天……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這一點是替他們說明。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，如果今天沒有因為金門撞船事件這個意外發生，我真的不知道海巡署同仁沒有配戴密錄器，幾個委員提到，像學忠委員有提到這個在我們鄉下是警察值勤基本的配備，因為他不單單是要維護執行的安全，他也要確保自己的安全，所以密錄器是必備的，應該是這樣吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：未來的勤務在這個部分，勤務的裝備跟勤務的管理，我們有一個全盤的策進小組，我們一定要落實……"],["黃委員建賓：對，我相信主委……"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員的關心，我們真的會痛加檢討，然後要全面地落實。"],["黃委員建賓：因為主委剛才有提到說主委上1年多解決很多問題，包括花了90億去修那個船嘛？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的車子20年了，真的是追不到嫌犯，所以這部分也解決了，陸陸續續解決，一樣一樣……"],["黃委員建賓：所以那個密錄器的比例應該不大吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：一樣一樣在解決，密錄器的部分我個人在偵防分署的部分讓它做到每一個人有一臺，這一點在我上任以後有要求，偵防分署的部分已經補到每一個人有一臺；金馬澎分署的部分我替他們找了100臺，過年後才到，所以當時那100臺還沒有到。所以其實我就任以後也陸陸續續地在解決密錄器，替海巡署做了很重要很重要的問題的解決，但是無論如何就這個部分真的接受所有委員的指導跟指教，我們一定要痛加檢討，未來絕對不允許在勤務上沒有落實，然後再發生這樣的事情。"],["黃委員建賓：我們部落很多弟兄都是在軍中服役，那有一些是在海巡單位服役，其實這件事情會對基層造成很大的打擊，因為他們會擔心未來如果我執勤到底要怎麼辦？如果說出了事情之後我要怎麼辦？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不過當天密錄器是夠的，當天密錄器是夠的。"],["黃委員建賓：那怎麼沒影片？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，所以我有說在管理勤務落實的部分，我們有很多細膩的地方要檢討，但是當天他們就是依尋常的作法，用攝影的器材來出勤，而且他不是說我要去登檢，怎麼會你要出發沒有密錄器？不是，而是他已經在海上，用他尋常的標配在海上執勤的時候被調過來的，被調到現場去應處這件事情……"],["黃委員建賓：所以有這樣的設備在？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，所以他用的就是標配，就是我們在每一艘 CP艇上面所給的手持式攝錄影機。"],["黃委員建賓：但是沒有影片。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我……好，來，分署長想要說明，我想更能夠瞭解事實，好不好？"],["黃委員建賓：好。"],["廖分署長德成：報告委員，我是艦隊分署的分署長廖德成，這邊再特別地說明，我們登檢的規定在密錄器的部分不一定是只有密錄器，只要能夠全程錄音錄影的設備就好，就是要在發動登檢的當時一定要全程錄音錄影，這個是我們一個勤務上面的規範，那當然如同我們主委講的，將來我們的勤務上面會再做檢討精進，以上。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝分署長的說明。"],["管主任委員碧玲：當時搖晃的程度讓他來不及，因為追逐的時間就短短的那麼5分鐘，而且是高速40節的過程。"],["黃委員建賓：我想署裡面也這樣說明，反正最重要的結果就是沒有影像，沒有影像可以去證明這件事情。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，這一點我們深感抱歉，我們一再地對社會表達我們的歉意。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委。主委，如果沒有影像，那船上應該有雷達軌跡，這個有嘛！對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個部分交給檢調了。"],["黃委員建賓：那我們既然有這樣的設備、有這樣的紀錄，有沒有辦法直接或間接的證明說撞船這件事情？有沒有辦法？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，有沒有這個影像當然是其中讓我們瞭解案情當中的一環，但是事證的還原其實不是光靠這個影像，事證的還原有種種的跡證，從船舶的跡證、從人員的筆錄、從各方面，檢察官會去還原整個事實的真相。"],["黃委員建賓：是，主委，我剛才提的是你們有雷達軌跡，這個雷達軌跡可不可以直接或間接來證明有沒有撞船？我們現在不在講影像了，我們講這個東西……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們請檢察官來研判，目前在檢察官……"],["黃委員建賓：海巡署的專業沒有辦法判斷有沒有嗎？分署長，這個沒辦法嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個部分請署長來說明。"],["主席：請署長。"],["周副主任委員美伍：跟委員報告，我想這一次整個有關陸船翻覆的原因，依照我個人、我們同仁第一時間在做現場的調查跟整個證物的現象來看，我想主要有三個原因，在這邊跟您做個報告。第一個、它是高速右轉，這是第一個原因，這個高速右轉，它的速度是推到底，它的電門開關是開啟，另外，它的舵（就是方向盤）是打到右滿舵，右滿舵就是向右轉到底，如同我們這一張圖片，這樣子的狀況它是高速右轉。","第二個主要的原因是它的配重有問題，它是一個平底的、快速的船隻……"],["黃委員建賓：我相信你們都有專業，你們都有做過這些紀錄，因為時間的關係，這個會後是不是再提供給本委員會來……"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員，但是請你讓我講完，因為三個原因，我必須要講完。","第二個原因是配重的關係，因為它是一個平底的快艇，它有兩部400匹非常重的propeller（舷外機）在後端，所以理論上這個船平常就是這樣翹起來的，另外，它還有一個收網機，在它的右側，所以它的配重就不正常，正常狀況下，它加了這樣子的配重會右傾，它又在高速又右傾。","第三個最重要的原因……"],["黃委員建賓：署長，謝謝……"],["周副主任委員美伍：第三個，最後一個原因，第三個最重要的原因……"],["黃委員建賓：我的時間剩下55秒，不好意思，我只是要強調一件事情而已……"],["周副主任委員美伍：他的操縱不良，他不會操船……"],["黃委員建賓：如果我們都有這些資料，請盡快公布，但是我們……"],["周副主任委員美伍：這個船長只開了不到10次船，這艘船他1月份才買來的……"],["黃委員建賓：好啦！你可以讓我講一下嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，所以他沒有執照。"],["黃委員建賓：署長，你剛才強調的是整個船的機械原理架構，我只是要問……"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，在最重要的案情部分真的需要說明。"],["黃委員建賓：你的軌跡能不能夠證明這樣的事情而已，我相信都在調查當中，也希望會後趕快把資料給我們委員會……"],["周副主任委員美伍：好，一定要。"],["黃委員建賓：我們也希望讓我們海巡弟兄執勤的時候除了能夠確保執勤的安全以外，也能夠還清自己的清白，我們絕對支持海巡弟兄依法行政，我們絕對支持！但是其實需要一個真相，也包括今天大家對我們弟兄們執勤的質疑……"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，我要提醒你，海巡署是屬於內政部，所以在我們內政委員會這邊來質詢，他不是軍隊，他是海上警察，他的執法必須小心，我也提醒主委，主委，這件事情不小心就會引起很大的爭端，這個造成的結果都不是在場所有委員樂意見的，今天不管是國民黨、民進黨或民眾黨，沒有人希望因為這件事情造成兩岸的升溫，而造成各行各業影響，這是本席要表達的，再次謝謝召委，謝謝主委，謝謝。"],["周副主任委員美伍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝建賓委員的質詢，也謝謝你們的答詢。","我在這邊提醒一下署長，您剛剛所回答委員的這些為什麼在你們今天的專案報告裡面沒有更細部的說？這個是我要譴責你們的，如果今天這個專案報告能夠把你們更細部的這些如同你剛剛所講的提供給委員們做參考，你剛剛不會浪費太多的時間，我先譴責你們並沒有把這個細部的資料交給委員會，下次不可以這樣子，好不好？謝謝！","繼續請牛煦庭委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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委員支持海巡署改名對他們來講真的太重大了真的有需要對不起主委我要必須在這邊再糾正一下今天的狀況報告不是你們送來的狀況報告好不好 謝謝主委我都已經講成這樣了你讓我下台你還這樣對不對"},{"start":186.693,"end":202.083,"text":"所以我們現在提到的就是這件事情整個最引發最大爭議的原因就是因為影像這件事情沒圖沒真相是沒圖沒真相所以對於基層執行的必須發想也非常不公平他們冒著生命危險"},{"start":203.044,"end":231.122,"text":"在捍衛我們的主權的同時保護我們團隊的同時他必須因為沒有錄影設備而去背起這個責任這個部分我覺得會後我們可以來討論錄影設備跟災難是兩件事剛剛這個第一點恐怕是不是能夠請委員能夠釐清因為海巡署不是對不起我能夠海巡署不是因為他們的過失造成災難我能夠請委員再回到上一頁嗎"},{"start":232.863,"end":258.537,"text":"抱歉抱歉抱歉因為海巡署的疏忽演變成災難真的很抱歉是所以這個災難這個事故我想不是因為海巡署的疏忽在登檢的過程中發生的事故我們現在在等檢調來釐清等檢察官來釐清謝謝那如果說是因為沒有錄影帶的部分我們真的是深深的感到抱歉"},{"start":259.377,"end":259.717,"text":"好謝謝主委好"},{"start":272.282,"end":293.488,"text":"主委,海巡署說我們缺乏露營器材,這造成問題。主委,海巡署說我們10噸級以下的巡邏艦艇、密錄器不是標配,因為這樣並沒有違規。我想這個是都把責任推到我們基層同仁的做法,完全要以第一線同仁來承擔這個奉獻。"},{"start":295.209,"end":319.289,"text":"如果今天沒有因為金門撞船事件這個意外發生我真的不知道海巡署同仁沒有佩戴密錄器那個幾個委員提到像那個學生委員提到這個在我們鄉下是警察執勤基本的配備因為他不單單是要維護執勤的安全他也要確保自己的安全所以密錄器是必備的應該是這樣吧"},{"start":321.792,"end":340.501,"text":"我們未來的勤務在這個部分勤務的裝備跟勤務的管理我們有一個全盤的策進的小組我們一定要錄製委員的關心我們真的會痛加檢討因為主委剛才提到說主委上一年多解決很多問題包括花了到90億去修那個船"},{"start":341.121,"end":343.402,"text":"我個人在針黃分署的部分讓他做到每一個人有一台這一點在我上任以後有要求"},{"start":359.208,"end":381.161,"text":"金馬鵬分屬的部分我替他們找了100台那過年後才到所以當時那100台還沒有到所以密錄器我其實我就任以後也陸陸續續的在解決那有更大的問題替海巡署做了很重要很重要的問題的解決但是無論如何"},{"start":384.463,"end":396.546,"text":"就這個部分真的接受所有委員的指導跟指教我們一定要痛加檢討我們未來絕對不允許在勤務上沒有落實然後再發生這樣的事情"},{"start":398.14,"end":415.354,"text":"所以我們其實部分很多弟兄都是在軍融服役那有些是在海巡單位服役那其實這件事情會堆積成很大的打擊因為他們會擔心未來如果我執勤我到底要怎麼辦如果出了事情之後我要怎麼辦不過當天密錄器是夠的當天密錄器是夠的"},{"start":417.215,"end":441.485,"text":"所以我有說在我們的管理的勤務的落實的部分我們有很多細膩的地方要檢討但是當天他們就是依循常的做法用這個攝影的器材來出勤而且他不是說我要去登檢怎麼會你要出發沒有密錄器不是而是他已經在海上用他尋常的標配在海上執勤的時候被調過來的"},{"start":443.326,"end":465.94,"text":"被調到現場去應處這件事情所以有這樣的設備戰所以他用的就是標配就是我們在每一艘CP提醒上面所給的手持式的攝錄影集但是沒有影片好來那個分署長想要說更能夠了解事實好不好"},{"start":467.726,"end":485.234,"text":"報告委員我是艦隊分署的分署長廖德成這邊在特別的說明在特別的說明我們更簡的規定在密錄器的部分不一定是只有密錄器只要能夠全程錄音錄影的設備就好那就是要在"},{"start":485.754,"end":488.376,"text":"當時搖晃的程度讓他來不及因為追逐的時間就短短的那麼5分鐘而且是高速的40節的這個過程"},{"start":511.067,"end":511.247,"text":"那我們的"},{"start":539.855,"end":542.696,"text":"各位委員報告有沒有這個影像當然是其中讓我們了解案情當中的一環但是事證的還原其實不是光靠這個影像事證的還原有種種的跡證從船舶的跡證"},{"start":565.728,"end":567.39,"text":"主席,主席我剛才提的是"},{"start":578.764,"end":580.025,"text":"這個部分請署長來說明請署長"},{"start":601.685,"end":626.355,"text":"各位委員報告我想這一次整個有關陸船翻覆的原因依照我個人我們同仁第一時間在做這個現場的調查跟整個政務的一個現象來看我想主要有三個原因我想在這邊跟您做個報告第一個它是一個高速右轉這是第一個原因那麼這個高速右轉我們從這一個艇"},{"start":628.456,"end":654.02,"text":"他的車就是我們的家車就是他的速度他是推到底他的電門開關是開啟另外他的舵就是方向盤是打到右門舵這個右門舵就是向右轉到底就是如同我們這張這個圖片那這樣子的一個狀況他是高速右轉第二個主要的原因是他的配重"},{"start":655.282,"end":656.763,"text":"所以理論上這個船,兩個弦外機在後端,它平常就是這樣翹起來的"},{"start":684.329,"end":709.983,"text":"另外他還有一個這個收網機在他的右側所以正常上他的配重就不正常所以他正常狀況下他有加了這樣子的配重然後他會右傾他又在高速又右傾第三個最重要的原因第三個最後一個原因第三個最重要的原因我時間剩下55秒不好意思我只是要講掉一件事情而已如果我們通過這個資料緊進一塊風電他不會超船那個船長"},{"start":713.445,"end":717.753,"text":"他只開了不到14船這一艘船他1月份才買來的所以他沒有執照"},{"start":722.253,"end":746.622,"text":"部長你剛才講到是整個船的整個機械原理架構我只是要問說你的軌道能不能夠證明這樣事情而已我上面都在調查當中也希望會不會趕快把資料給我們委員會在那邊說一定要我們也希望讓國軍弟兄我們的海巡的弟兄執行的時候除了能夠確保執行的安全以外也能夠環境自由進來"},{"start":747.862,"end":768.937,"text":"我們絕對支持海巡弟兄依法行政我們絕對支持但是其實是需要一個真相也包括今天大家對我們弟兄的質詢的質疑是最後要提醒你阿主委海巡署他是署內正部所以在我們內政委員會這邊的質詢他不是軍隊他是海上警察"},{"start":769.417,"end":769.537,"text":"謝謝建賓委員"}]}},{"id":"149303","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149303","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd71422a0d61d168264df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a644c33f9589bb011c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"15:09:04 - 15:20:32","影片長度":"00:11:28","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":688,"end_time":"2024-03-04T15:20:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T15:09:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":2006,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（15時9分）主席、各位委員。有請海巡署署長。"],["主席：哪一位組長？署長，是不是？請海巡署署長，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：副主委兼署長。"],["主席：對，副主委兼署長，謝謝。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：署長，辛苦了！"],["周副主任委員美伍：應該的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：為了維護我們的主權，以及海域的安全，當然也包含我們海巡署弟兄的安全，不升高衝突是很重要的基本原則，對不對？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒有錯嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有錯，完全正確。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們的召委以立法院內政委員會發出的開會通知，題目是「金門撞船案」，這個金門撞船案有兩種可能，一個是大陸快艇撞我國的巡防艇，另外一種可能是我國的巡防艇撞大陸快艇，當然還有第三種可能，兩個同時碰撞，其實有很多種可能。我自己是事務官出身，擔任過事務官很久，30年，也擔任過常務的副主委很多年，無論是民進黨執政、國民黨執政，我都擔任過了。我不知道你們是不是成為事務官，因為我對於海巡單位不是那麼了解，但應該還是算事務官吧？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我個人是政務官，除了我以外，以下全都是事務官。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道你現在是政務官，署長算是事務官，因為你是副主委……"],["周副主任委員美伍：署長是政務官。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你是政務官？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：過去你是事務官出身？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這次負責談判的是副署長嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是副署長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：副署長，請上來。"],["主席：我們有請副署長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：過去我擔任事務官的時候，常常要考量到就原住民的權益而言，該如何去協助我們的長官，而你也是要協助我們的管主委，因為管主委過去擔任了很久的立委，要調整不是那麼容易，有時候該勸導或甚至是用拜託兩個字，可以減少很多相關的衝突，尤其是涉及到海域的安全、海巡弟兄的執法等等各方面，這個部分更是要勇敢的向長官報告。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為我們的資訊很少，召委的資訊也是很少，對不對？我們當然就是看媒體的報導、我們就是看鏡週刊的報導，鏡週刊夠力了吧？你看它在這邊提到，負責調查的金門地檢署檢察長周士榆親上火線，第一時間就發現中國快艇左舷下方有一處明顯撞痕，用肉眼即可看到凹陷處，也就是有碰撞嘛！這邊也提到碰撞，剛才就講了有3種可能性，甚至是4種可能性都有。","我們看一下你今天的答詢。","（播放影片）"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：今天的報告標題是你下的，還是主委下的，我不知道，是誰改的，沒關係！重點是無論如何，第一個，我剛剛講的，一開始的原則，減少衝突、減少衝突。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：立法院難免會有不同的立場，對不對？民進黨立委質詢的方向當然不一樣，但重點是如何減少衝突，尤其是涉及到兩岸的和平。我們就以原住民而言，主委也很清楚，署長，你也很清楚，在海巡弟兄裡面原住民的比例很高、我們的軍人比例也很高，原住民是不怕打仗的。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們不會打仗，我們是執法。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：在原住民的歷史中打仗的事件太多了，原住民是不怕打仗的，但是為了2,300萬人民的和平、生命及財產，我們必須要設法。像這樣的情況，我們就要去勸長官、勸主委，在用詞上是不是能夠做一些調整，所以這個部分需要特別請副主委兼署長與副署長幫忙。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員，關於這個題目，早上我已經特別向召委做過報告，這是我們海巡署撰擬的，不是主委授意、也不是主委出這個題目讓我們來寫，這是我們自己寫的。主委在看到我們這個題目之後，她就認為我們為什麼要寫這個題目，我說這就是一個單一的執法事件，我們就是一個取締三無船舶……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：那你要好好檢討！"],["周副主任委員美伍：但是我們要好好檢討，所以我們要好好檢討。關於這個問題，早上我已經特別提出抱歉。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為這涉及到立法院的職權，不是只有召委本人。"],["周副主任委員美伍：了解，我們要檢討。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我也擔任過召委很多年，對於我提的文字，內政委員會或其他委員會都會與我討論，題目是否要稍微修正一下、修改一下，所以這個部分的溝通很重要。","這是你們的報告，本次涉案船舶，係屬三無船舶（無船名、無船舶證書、無船籍港登記），對不對？當然用詞的部分，就我來看，每個人的觀點不同，我尊重！大陸籍快艇是無船籍港登記、無船舶證書、無船名，這個部分有時候還是要稍微謹慎一下。依照臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第二十九條第一項，使用的名稱是大陸船舶，我們要依法行政嘛！大陸船舶，其實這個也無須太過爭議，我的意思是大家要互相啦！互相尊重。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：互相尊重，對不對？"],["周副主任委員美伍：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：每個人的文字會有所不同，所以要互相尊重，這個部分沒有嚴重到要調整立法院的文字，互相尊重！你也會錯啊！按照法律應該是稱為大陸船舶，對不對？這個部分就是這樣的一個情形，所以還是要互相尊重。","你們的報告提到「立法院內政委員會於108年會議決議，考量海巡人員執法環境特殊，建議海巡署應於二個月內研議配發密錄器予基層人員，期間雖陸續籌補1,358台，惟目前配發所屬使用密錄器，未採用執勤人員每人一台方式配發，未來將改採每人一台方式配發。」當然你們在後面有提到要動支預備金。我的意思是這個部分，今天我們的快艇，我們的名稱是什麼？我們的那個……"],["周副主任委員美伍：CP艇。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：海巡艇。"],["周副主任委員美伍：海巡CP艇。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是只有一個人，好幾個人在裡面。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：如果都沒有密錄器，顯然還是非常的不足，這個部分趕快處理。"],["周副主任委員美伍：好，這個我們已經在檢討了，希望能在今年完成所有的採購。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們絕對全力支持海巡弟兄。"],["周副主任委員美伍：謝謝委員。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢。","請問署長，你們今年什麼時候會完成？給個時間好不好？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們目前有個預推，希望能夠在9月以前完成。"],["主席：9月以前？"],["周副主任委員美伍：對。"],["主席：全部都完成？"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，因為我們已經都在作業了。"],["主席：這個報告也給我們委員會一份，好不好？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，一定。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["周副主任委員美伍：謝謝召委。"],["主席：因為我們目前都沒看到你們的這些，好嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們在9月底之前。"],["主席：請莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員不在。","請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","請林沛祥委員、林沛祥委員、林沛祥委員不在。","請謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員不在。","請吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請李彥秀委員、李彥秀委員、李彥秀委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在。","請林思銘委員、林思銘委員、林思銘委員不在。","請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","請林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員不在。","請何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","請王世堅委員、王世堅委員、王世堅委員不在。","請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","請游顥委員、游顥委員、游顥委員不在。","請林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員不在。","請張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員不在。","請馬文君委員、馬文君委員、馬文君委員不在。","請顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員不在。","請廖偉翔委員、廖偉翔委員、廖偉翔委員不在。","請羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋委員不在。","登記發言的委員除不在場者之外，其餘均已發言完畢，我們現在詢答結束。另有委員陳冠廷、楊瓊瓔、王鴻薇及張啓楷等所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢與未及答復的部分，請相關單位在一周內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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:320.023,"text":"在這個準備登檢的過程當中就會發生像剛剛我們影片所發生的因為互相一個是逃跑一個是追逐這樣子互動的一個狀況之下難免會有一些擦碰我想這個一定會有所以我們在這一次的這個檢調對於兩艘船查扣之後請這些相關的單位來做這個查驗的時候"},{"start":322.478,"end":343.194,"text":"明顯的有兩方擦創各流油漆的因為如果我們擦創到他他的油漆會到我們的這個團體上我們的油漆會到他的團體上所以這個部分當主委我不知道是一開始你就下了這個標題"},{"start":345.557,"end":373.592,"text":"我說今天的那個報告的標題是你下的還是主委下的我不知道是誰改的沒關係重點不管怎麼樣我們要第一個我剛講的一開始的原則減少衝突是減少衝突立法院難免會有不同的立場啊對不對民進黨立委當然質詢的方向不一樣啊"},{"start":374.729,"end":401.063,"text":"但是怎麼樣去減少衝突尤其是涉及到兩岸的和平我們就講原住民來說 主委也很清楚 組長你也很清楚在海巡弟兄裡面 原住民的比例很高我們的軍人的比例也很高原住民是不怕打戰的啦"},{"start":403.051,"end":403.872,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":427.999,"end":429.321,"text":"副主委兼署長"},{"start":444.605,"end":461.394,"text":"好 我們看你們的 另外 各位 抱歉這個題目我早上已經特別跟召委有做報告這是我們海巡署所撰尼的不是主委授意 也不會主委出這個題目讓我們來寫這是我們自己寫的"},{"start":462.641,"end":482.131,"text":"主委在看到我們這個題目之後,他就認為我們為什麼要寫這個題目?我說我們這就是一個單一的執法事件。我們就是一個取締,一個傳播。但是我們要好好檢討,所以我們要好好檢討。這個問題我早上已經特別提出過去。"},{"start":485.993,"end":508.928,"text":"立法院的執情不是只有趙薇本人我還當過趙薇很多年我提的文字內政委員會或別的委員會都會跟我討論說這個題目要不要稍微修正一下改一下所以這個都會所以這個部分的溝通很重要好我們來看"},{"start":512.464,"end":539.644,"text":"這是你們的報告本次涉案傳播細數三無傳播無傳名無傳播證書無傳及登記對不對當然用詞就我來看每個人的觀點不同我尊重大陸及快艇它是無傳及港登記"},{"start":541.499,"end":568.917,"text":"無船舶證書無船名這個部分這個有時候還是稍微謹慎一下這個因為我們依法例等一下我先看一下條文依法例台灣第7與大陸第7人民關係條例第29條第1項使用的是叫大陸船舶我們依法行政大陸船舶"},{"start":570.607,"end":572.129,"text":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw"},{"start":594.192,"end":594.592,"text":"這裏面你們的報告提到"},{"start":615.765,"end":643.64,"text":"立法院內政委員會108年會議結議考量海巡人員執法環境特殊建議海巡署員2個月內研議配發密錄器與基層人員期間須陸續籌補1358台為目前配發所使用密錄器未採用執行人員每一台方式配發未來將改採每人一台方式配發當然你後面有提到"},{"start":645.284,"end":671.734,"text":"動資一倍金我的意思是說這個部分今天在這個快艇裡面我們的快艇我們的名稱叫什麼我們的CP艇海巡艇不是只有一個人好幾個人在裡面顯然如果都沒有密錄器的話顯然還是"},{"start":673.809,"end":675.071,"text":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員"}]}},{"id":"149302","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149302","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddda3b3c952901f38174df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a66ec415f885f277df5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"14:57:29 - 15:08:37","影片長度":"00:11:08","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":668,"end_time":"2024-03-04T15:08:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T14:57:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1927,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（14時57分）謝謝主席。請我們的管主委。"],["主席：有請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：李委員好！"],["李委員坤城：主委好，主委也辛苦了！這次關於中國三無船舶因為遭到取締導致翻覆的這個案子到目前為止總共談判了幾次？"],["管主任委員碧玲：15次，13天15次。"],["李委員坤城：談判了15次。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["李委員坤城：最新的談判進度是怎麼樣？最後一次談判的結果是怎麼樣？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們在逐漸趨近之中，是不是還是由在最前線我們許副署長來看看哪一些事情適合說明，這樣好不好？"],["李委員坤城：好，沒關係！可以對外說明的就說清楚，就是最後一次、第15次的談判到底談判的重點在哪裡，卡在哪裡，能不能請副署長來講一下？"],["許副署長靜芝：最近的一次也就是在昨天，陸方主要的訴求由於我們兩岸法律制度的不同所以在共識的凝聚方面還有相當的落差，往後我們還會來持續溝通……"],["李委員坤城：你說法律制度的不同是指什麼？"],["許副署長靜芝：就是彼此的法律作業程序。"],["李委員坤城：你這樣講其實我不太清楚，是他們要求我們要先道歉嗎？那我們是希望等這個司法調查結果出來之後再說嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：類似這樣，就是包括真相也好或者是究責也好，臺灣有臺灣的司法制度在，我們有我們的法制體系，我們總是認為應該要到最後真相釐清的時候有些事情我們才能做，也因此我們會希望大家能夠瞭解臺灣司法制度的情況之下，我們現在先抽離這個司法未來冗長程序的限制，我們先用撫慰的方式越快地給予家屬最大的照顧，畢竟他們的家長過世，基於對家屬的照顧，所以我們很希望在司法還未完成前能用人道撫慰的制度來談。"],["李委員坤城：我們就是想先處理人道撫慰金的部分，但中方是要求我們先道歉嗎？如果卡在這邊要怎麼談下去？"],["管主任委員碧玲：當所有這些事情都要一起同時解決的時候，難免就會遇到比較多的困難。"],["李委員坤城：今天王定宇委員表示在談判過程中有中方要求我們的海巡人員到對岸接受詢問，有沒有這件事情？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們剛剛有重複說明了一下……"],["李委員坤城：本席剛剛沒有聽到啊！請簡單扼要的說明。"],["許副署長靜芝：協商的過程中曾經有提出這樣的訴求，經過我們多次的溝通之後，已經逐步的化解了。"],["李委員坤城：剛開始就有提出這種要求嗎？"],["許副署長靜芝：是在過程中，不是一開始。"],["李委員坤城：除了這個之外，還有沒有其他是我們認為無理的要求？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我想我們不用「無理」兩個字，是對於制度認知的落差，我一直都希望是這樣定位，因為我們還是要秉持善意。舉一個例子，撫慰金或賠償是兩個完全不同的概念，因為在制度的認知上真的有很大的落差，所以包括這個部分到現在也都還在努力中。"],["李委員坤城：因為你們在第一線談判，我知道你們的用詞會比較低調一點點，但是站在我們的立場，該堅守的就是要堅守啊！沒有什麼要我們的人過去詢問的這種事，不然以後要怎麼執法？我們是取締非法的三無船舶，對不對？對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["李委員坤城：我們要取締三無船舶，中國要不要取締？"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們規定也很嚴格。"],["李委員坤城：中國有沒有要求我們也要取締？"],["管主任委員碧玲：過去偕同執法的時候……"],["李委員坤城：有沒有？"],["許副署長靜芝：有。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！兩邊都要取締這種三無船舶嘛！對不對？這次也是三無船舶，基本上，越到我們的禁限制海域，我們就是要取締，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以我認為整件事情就是三無船舶接近我們的、侵入我們的禁限制海域，接獲這個消息後我們的海巡署就過去，希望了解這個三無船舶是要做什麼，在調查的過程中，根據早上署長的說法，他們的速度非常快，最後是不是有導致翻覆的情況，當然這個還是要由司法調查。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["李委員坤城：但是就我們的立場而言，第一個，我們是在執法、我們是在取締非法，所以我支持管主委把這個專案報告名稱改成取締大陸籍快艇事故，這個我是支持的，也是要站穩臺灣的主權。","再請問一下，520之前會不會有類似這種的灰色地帶，譬如接近我們的禁限制海域，上次也發生過他們的海警船登檢我們的遊艇，會不會有這種類似的情況？你們研判會不會再發生，藉此壓迫我們的新政府？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，我們就是用越界捕魚的規定處理。"],["李委員坤城：除了越界捕魚之外？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們並沒有把它當成是灰色地帶戰略，至於登檢，我們真的很不願意看到還有第二次。基本上，其實登檢也是很罕有，而且多半都是在政治氛圍的情況之下發生，譬如去年演習的那個階段以及這一次。這是一個比較政治性的登檢，在中國的兩次登檢過程中，我必須說一句公道話，基本上還是有某種程度的節制在裡面。"],["李委員坤城：既然船是臺灣的船，我認為登檢就要有節制、我認為要有節制。"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是我們認為不應該登檢，這是我們堅定的主張。"],["李委員坤城：如果它登檢了呢？像上次它就登檢了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們有SOP，報告委員，海巡署更可以來說明，我們都知道這個定位是政治性的登檢，所以當它是政治性的登檢時，它就不是說海盜來了要登檢，什麼你叫他去送死、你叫他不要停，不是的！不是的！在這樣的政治性氛圍情況之下的登檢，我們的SOP就是希望我們的民船趕快與海巡聯絡，我們就會趕快去馳援，在這個過程之中……"],["李委員坤城：這樣來得及嗎？上次就是讓他們上去登檢了啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：在這個過程之中保持安全，能夠與我們對開是最好的。報告委員，在這樣的一個SOP之下，我們總是希望這樣的行動不要再繼續有更高的衝突。"],["李委員坤城：我們的SOP就是不讓它登檢，所以我們就先回來，目前是這樣子嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們從海巡同仁口中的說明就可以更精確，好嗎？請我們的巡防組長來說明。"],["李委員坤城：簡單講一下。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["廖組長雲宏：我是巡防組長，首先我們是針對海域進行區分，分別從限制水域外、到限制水域、乃至於到禁止水域。"],["李委員坤城：上次我們的那艘遊艇呢？"],["廖組長雲宏：這艘遊艇是在限制水域外，通常我們會先透過雷達偵知有這艘船，之後再透過監控，如果它進入我們的水域內，或是被我發現的時候，我會馬上通報我們的線上巡防艇過去，切到大陸的公務船與我方船舶之間，之後再透過兩岸協調的管道進行溝通，以上。"],["李委員坤城：如果在520之前有類似的事情發生，是不是不應該讓他們上船登檢？"],["廖組長雲宏：絕對是這個態度與立場。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！上次就是讓他們上船登檢過了啊！這也算是臺灣主權的延伸耶！對不對？這是我們的船耶！它憑什麼上船登檢，我們有違規嗎？"],["廖組長雲宏：是，我們也嚴正表達過這個態度。"],["李委員坤城：我們有違規嗎？"],["廖處長雲宏：沒有。"],["李委員坤城：沒有違規啊！憑什麼他們要上船登檢？沒有這個權力嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：在政治氛圍中的行動。"],["李委員坤城：在1989年，也就是35年前，中國在海域上還有萬船齊發，你知道嗎？這個萬船齊發也是一個政治性的氛圍，那時候就是要來嚇阻啊！我不知道現在到520之前會不會有類似的這些狀況？中國現在不依法取締他們的三無船舶，我認為是單純對中國漁民違法行為的放任，還是官方支持對金馬海域的干擾執法，這些都是有可能的。","剩下最後1分鐘，我對這件事情有3個堅持，希望海委會這邊能夠堅持下去，第一個，涉及管轄權的問題、涉及主權的問題，絕對不能有任何讓步。第二個，對於中國漁民的違法行為，取締不能打折，兩岸對於三無船舶都是要取締的，所以不能打折。第三個，給予人道撫慰金不能有任何附加條件，我們願意給對方的罹難者人道撫慰金，但是不能讓對岸有任何的附加條件。主委，在談判的過程中是否能至少堅守這三個原則？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，我們交給專案小組做為參考，好不好？謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：我是希望取締非法、維持合法、堅守臺灣的主權，在這次的談判過程中，我認為是要堅守下去的，好不好？"],["許副署長靜芝：是，謝謝委員指導，我們一定會。"],["李委員坤城：接下來還會再繼續談判下去嗎？"],["許副署長靜芝：會的。"],["李委員坤城：他們還留在金門嗎？"],["許副署長靜芝：是的。"],["李委員坤城：如果今天沒有排這個專案報告，你們就會留在那邊嗎？"],["許副署長靜芝：報告委員，談判的時間不是重點，立場要彼此調整，釋出最大的善意才是重點。"],["李委員坤城：我當然知道時間不是重點。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們會掌握所有的節奏，好不好？謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員的質詢，也謝謝管主委及副署長，謝謝你們，謝謝。","請邱議瑩委員、邱議瑩委員、邱議瑩委員不在。","請鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","張啓楷"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案：\n翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130501_00018"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":0.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0434687500000002,"end":2.5115937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.1697187500000004,"end":4.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.13909375,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.15596875,"end":11.084093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.172843750000002,"end":11.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.30346875,"end":12.400343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.822218750000001,"end":22.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.53784375,"end":27.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.668468750000002,"end":25.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.828468750000003,"end":30.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.07721875,"end":28.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.38471875,"end":33.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.54471875,"end":33.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.66284375,"end":36.970343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.37971875,"end":36.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.54409375,"end":47.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.572218750000005,"end":52.259093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.71471875,"end":54.250343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.60471875,"end":55.515968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.515968750000006,"end":55.532843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.08971875,"end":57.119093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.119093750000005,"end":57.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.38909375,"end":58.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.40159375,"end":58.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.41846875,"end":59.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.532218750000006,"end":59.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.034093750000004,"end":63.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.89409375000001,"end":72.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.66096875000001,"end":83.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.38534375,"end":82.33034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.67159375,"end":87.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.29159375,"end":89.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.35034375000001,"end":89.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.22784375,"end":90.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.24471875,"end":96.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.89346875000001,"end":128.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.02409375,"end":98.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.23409375,"end":104.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.32721875000001,"end":157.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.98284375,"end":147.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.43409375000002,"end":147.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.20096875000002,"end":160.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.12784375,"end":164.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.14471875,"end":173.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.26971875,"end":183.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.74034375000002,"end":190.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.11096875,"end":190.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.21221875,"end":192.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.51596875,"end":190.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.65909375,"end":193.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.21596875,"end":194.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.56596875000002,"end":199.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.94909375,"end":204.65721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.72471875000002,"end":205.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.03659375,"end":208.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.77471875,"end":208.90971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.23034375,"end":212.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.68971875000003,"end":212.70659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.16221875000002,"end":225.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.49534375000002,"end":214.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.98409375000003,"end":219.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.43471875,"end":225.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.58221875,"end":236.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.31471875000003,"end":239.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.31846875000002,"end":242.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.74409375000002,"end":244.21221875},{"speaker":"S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bypass 我們這個司法的我們先來抽離這個司法一個未來的一個冗長程序的限制我們先用撫慰的方式"},{"start":138.643,"end":139.123,"text":"中方要求我們先道歉嗎?"},{"start":163.157,"end":163.978,"text":"我們剛剛有重複說明了一下"},{"start":190.179,"end":190.559,"text":"剛剛有提出這種要求嗎?是..."},{"start":212.021,"end":235.891,"text":"委員我想我們不用無理兩個字的話就是說對於制度認知的落差我一直都希望這樣定位因為我們還是要秉持善意那舉一個例子就是說撫慰金或者是賠償這兩個概念完全不同因為在制度的認識上真的有很大的落差所以包括這個部分現在也都還在努力之中"},{"start":236.371,"end":250.161,"text":"因為你們在第一線談判所以你們的用詞我知道會比較低調一點點但是站在我們的立場該堅守就是要堅守啊這沒有什麼叫我們的人過去詢問那也要怎麼執法我們是取締非法的善無傳播對不對"},{"start":252.961,"end":272.806,"text":"山無船舶我們要取締,中國要不要取締?他們規定也很嚴格中國有沒有要求我們也要取締?過去協同執法的時候兩邊都要取締這種山無船舶嘛對不對那這一次也是山無船舶嘛基本上越到我們的這個季限制海域我們就是要取締嘛對不對"},{"start":274.847,"end":296.197,"text":"所以整個事情就是我認為啦就是說三無船舶接近我們的侵入我們的季限制海域那我們知道這個消息了然後我們海巡署就過去了希望了解說到底這個三無船舶在做什麼嘛那在這個要調查的過程當中那他們我按照這個這個早上那個署長的說法速度非常的快"},{"start":297.79,"end":324.138,"text":"然後最後是不是有導致翻覆的情況當然這個司法還是要做調查當然就我們的立場來講說第一個我們是在執法我們是在取締非法所以我是支持這個管主委把這個專案報告名稱改成取締大陸及快艇事故這是我是支持的這是要站穩台灣的主權那我再請問一下因為在520之前會不會有類似這一種"},{"start":325.728,"end":329.451,"text":"報告委員 越界捕魚我們就是用越界捕魚除了越界捕魚之外我們沒有把它當作是灰色地帶戰略那至於說燈檢我們真的很不願意看到還有第二次"},{"start":354.95,"end":355.13,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":386.725,"end":394.45,"text":"我是希望說船是台灣的船要登檢我認為要有節制但是我們認為不應該登檢這個是我們堅定的主張我們有SOP所以報告委員我想海巡署他更可以來說明我們都知道這個定位是政治性的登檢"},{"start":413.081,"end":436.558,"text":"所以當他是政治性的登檢的時候他就不是說海盜來了要登檢什麼你叫他去送死叫他不要停不是的不是的所以在這樣的一種政治性的氛圍情況之下的登檢我們的SOP就是我們會希望我們的民船趕快跟我們海巡聯絡然後我們會趕快去馳援然後在這個過程之中在這個過程之中保持安全能夠跟我們對開是最好的"},{"start":441.441,"end":464.366,"text":"所以跟委員報告說在這樣的一個SOP之下我們總是希望能夠把這樣的一個行動然後不要再繼續我們的SOP就是我們就是不讓他登檢那我們就先回來目前是這樣子嗎我想我們從海巡同仁的口中來說明就可以更精確好嗎我們請我們巡防組的來簡單講一下"},{"start":469.538,"end":485.649,"text":"我是巡邏組長首先我們是針對海域來做區分分別從限制水域外到限制水域乃至於到禁止水域那上次的那一個我們的遊艇呢這一艘遊艇是在限制水域外是那通常我們在會先用透過雷達來"},{"start":486.81,"end":506.516,"text":"曾知知道這件事知道有這艘船之後我們會透過那個監控啊如果他進到裡面在我們的水域裡面或者我發現的時候我會馬上通報我們的線上請過去然後切到他大陸的公務船跟我方的船舶之間之後再透過兩岸協調的管道來做溝通"},{"start":507.824,"end":528.999,"text":"好 那說520之前如果類似的事情發生的話是不是不應該讓他們上船登檢?絕對是這個態度跟立場對啊 因為上次就讓他們登船上船登檢過啦欸 這也算是台灣主權的延伸欸對不對 這是我們的船欸他憑什麼來上船登檢?是 我們也延伸了這個態度我們有違規嗎?沒有沒有違規啊 那為什麼 憑什麼他們要來上船登檢?沒有這個權利嘛"},{"start":538.427,"end":556.404,"text":"在這個1989年的時候,三十五年前在中國在這個海域上面還有萬船齊發你知道嗎?這萬船齊發這也是一個政治性的氛圍那時候就是要來嚇阻那我不知道說現在在520之前會不會有類似這一種萬船齊發"},{"start":559.179,"end":586.624,"text":"中國現在不依法取締他們的商務船舶我認為是單純對中國漁民違法行為的放任還是官方支持對金馬海域的干擾執法這就可能剩下最後一分鐘這件事情我有三個堅持請海洋委員這邊我希望能夠堅持下去第一個涉及管轄權的問題涉及主權的問題絕對不能有任何讓步"},{"start":587.469,"end":614.041,"text":"2.對於中國漁民的違法行為取締不能打折3.給予人道的撫慰金不能有任何附加條件我們願意給對方罹難者人道撫慰金但是不能讓對岸有任何的附加條件主委 這個在談判的過程能不能堅守至少這三個原則"},{"start":615.417,"end":630.851,"text":"報告委員,我們交給專案小組,我們交給專案小組來作為參考好不好?好不好?我是希望,取締非法、維持合法、堅守台灣的主權在這次的談判過程當中,我認為是要堅守下去的好不好?是,謝謝委員知道,我們一定會接下來還會再繼續在談判下去嗎?會的他們還留在金門嗎?"},{"start":640.828,"end":644.271,"text":"我們會掌握所有的節奏好不好好 謝謝李坤城委員、哲勳也謝謝管主委、然後副組長"}]}},{"id":"149301","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149301","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddf431aacec90e26ce4df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a6a2d01b8cba2b01b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"14:45:58 - 14:57:11","影片長度":"00:11:13","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":673,"end_time":"2024-03-04T14:57:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T14:45:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1838,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（14時45分）我請海委會跟海巡署。"],["主席：我們請海委會的主委以及海巡署的署長，謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝主席，主委、署長好。今天其實質詢了好幾個小時的時間，我看前面好幾位委員，包括我前面幾位的羅智強委員就非常關心我們海巡署的態度，中國的大內宣也表達，臺灣說我方是叫做冷血，所以我想要請問一下，這一次針對往生者的不幸事件，我們海巡署有沒有協助設立靈堂？"],["管主任委員碧玲：有的。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們在什麼時間設立的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我們第一線替家屬所善盡的祭拜、安靈，我們都持續做到現在，我是不是請我們在金門的專案小組許副署長來報告，好不好？"],["吳委員沛憶：好。"],["許副署長靜芝：委員好，我們在2月15號當天就已經先設立了牌位，對亡者實施拜飯，按照目前臺灣的習俗，頭七的時候，我們為他舉辦了法會，我也親自到法會的現場去上香，這個就是當天我們的照片。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以我們海巡署是不是由您親自去上香？我們去上香了幾次？"],["許副署長靜芝：我們每一天都有去拜飯上香。"],["吳委員沛憶：每天都去上香，那我想請問，中方的人員有沒有來上香過？"],["許副署長靜芝：就目前所知是沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：中方的人員，從我們設立靈堂到現在沒有來上香過？"],["許副署長靜芝：但是有去現場招過魂。"],["吳委員沛憶：包括家屬也沒有來上香？"],["許副署長靜芝：是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：是你們海巡署不讓中方人員來靈堂上香嗎？有沒有這樣的事情？"],["許副署長靜芝：金門殯儀館是開放的，只要在開放的時間內都可以去。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。我聽說中方甚至不讓家屬來上香，我希望沒有這樣的事情，所以我剛剛也必須要跟你們確認，是不是我們也不讓家屬來上香？未來如果有這樣的需求，我希望我們海巡署可以盡力來協助，盡到我們人道的關懷，可不可以做到？"],["許副署長靜芝：可以。"],["吳委員沛憶：接下來我也想要請問，在我們目前跟中方的協商當中，我們協商的次數有十多次，在協商當中，中方有沒有聚焦於要去定義這次的事件是「碰撞」或者是「衝撞」？有沒有聚焦在討論這一個名詞的使用？因為它包含了對事件的定義，有沒有這樣的事情？"],["許副署長靜芝：我想這個部分，中方對本次事件的定性，一直定義在一個惡性衝撞的範圍之內，經過幾次溝通以後，他們開始逐漸把惡性的名詞拿掉，剩下撞擊的這個部分。"],["吳委員沛憶：撞擊？所以確實在協商當中，中方是有主張要使用「衝撞」或是「碰撞」這樣的名詞，那你們有沒有同意？你們認同嗎？"],["許副署長靜芝：報告，我們專案小組絕對不接受。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們為什麼不接受？"],["許副署長靜芝：因為這是對本次事件的一個定性，在真相還沒有呈現出來之前，我們不接受這樣的定性。"],["吳委員沛憶：那真相要由誰來釐清？"],["許副署長靜芝：必須要由獨立的司法機關來做調查一切真相。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯，現在金門地檢署、司法已經介入調查，我今天在這裡要再一次提醒這件事，這個不是用協商可以來談的，包括你們海巡署、包括海委會，你們沒有權利也沒有資格來對事件做定義，因為真相必須交由司法來釐清，所以中方及我方，我們對於「衝撞」、「碰撞」的名詞有不同的見解，你們在協商當中，絕對不能退讓。因為這不是用協商可以談的，真相要交由司法來釐清，海巡署、海委會有沒有辦法保證？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們從頭到尾都堅持說，臺灣是一個法治國家，一定要經過獨立的、公正的司法審判釐清之後，才能夠據以釐清責任。我們一方面勿枉勿縱，一方面我們應該要擔負的責任都會擔負起來。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，沒有錯，我們臺灣是一個民主法治的國家，所以我認為這一次的事件，我現在聽下來，我的結論是，這是一個在執法過程當中發生的意外事故，針對意外事故的部分，我們再協商以及要交由司法來釐清，但是我們海巡署執法的正當性，我們政府絕對要來捍衛。","這次事件本身，第一件我想要確認的是，這個三無船舶在臺灣以及中國是不是都是違法的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，三無的船舶只要無船名，它進入到我們的禁限制水域的話，依兩岸人民關係條例跟施行細則的規定，我們就是可以扣留、可以留置人員，而且可以有所處置。"],["吳委員沛憶：但中國方面，對於三無船舶，他們的查緝跟罰則是什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們比我們更重，每一艘如果是查緝到的話，都是會沒收，而且還會罰高額的款，然後會要求一定要拆解。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以三無船舶在中國也是違法的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：我想請問，過去中國有沒有曾經尋求我方的協助，請我們一起來進行三無船舶的查緝？過去有沒有這樣子的案例？"],["管主任委員碧玲：過去在兩岸協同執法的過程當中，偶有中國……也是有過多次……希望我們來……"],["吳委員沛憶：所以過去曾經發生過嗎？這不是第一次發生嘛！這並不是一個特例嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我想這個部分，我們署長來說明的話，可以更讓委員知道……"],["吳委員沛憶：可以，過去有沒有發生過？"],["主席：請署長。"],["周副主任委員美伍：協同執法一直在做，就是雙方的海洋執法單位……"],["吳委員沛憶：一直在做，這是常年的往例，在這一次事件發生的時候，當時是有4人落海，我們看到了三無漁船，我們看到了非法船隻，我們一定要進行取締。在這個追逐的過程當中發生翻覆，4人落海，我們有沒有進行搜救？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們立刻進行搜救。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們第一時間進行搜救嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，立刻進行搜救。"],["吳委員沛憶：有沒有延誤？"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有延誤。"],["吳委員沛憶：第一時間進行搜救……"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：然後我們救回了……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們4個人都救回來了……"],["吳委員沛憶：我們4個人……"],["周副主任委員美伍：送醫之後，有2位因為急救無效，所以宣告……"],["吳委員沛憶：我們在海上的，不管是案件當中發生需要救援或者是海上的人道救援，過去有沒有發生過？"],["周副主任委員美伍：有。"],["吳委員沛憶：尤其是中國的船隻以及中國的船隻人員相關需要，過去有沒有發生過？"],["周副主任委員美伍：有、有，幾乎每年都有……"],["吳委員沛憶：發生過。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們從來不分彼此，只要這種救生救難……"],["吳委員沛憶：過去5年來這個次數大約是多少，署長有沒有辦法回答？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我想我們有一個詳細的數字，我可以做一個報告。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，請報告。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們在110年有8個案件，我們救援了8艘中國的船，救援了58個人；在111年我們有7個案件，我們救援的船數有7艘，救援起來的人數有54人；112年有2次案件，救援的船只有1艘，救援的人數是7個人；所以在過去3年我們一共發生了17件這樣子救生救難的案件，我們救援了中國16艘的船隻，也救援了119個人，這是我們一個準確的統計數字。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，所以我們的救援在過去也是常年的往例，其實這一次也不是特例嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有，這就是一個正常的執行工作，我們在海上除了執法，還要救生救難。"],["吳委員沛憶：那目前我們協商了10幾次……"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：署長，我們最主要的困難點、協商沒有辦法達成共識是什麼原因呢？既然兩岸協同執法過去是往例、慣例，既然海上的救援這也不是第一次發生，這一次我們目前協商遇到的困難是什麼？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我想我就以我的角度來看，因為這一次中方一直提出一些條件說，我舉例說明，我們說要真相，那我們一定要等司法整個調查完畢之後，它會給一個判斷，會給一個判定或者一個結果，但是他們認為這個不能夠接受，我們這一方一定要堅持我們的司法制度，我們一定要堅持按照我們的司法制度來走這個程序，但他們堅持他們的想法，所以我們在很多的點上面會有一些衝突，但是這個衝突在我們十幾次的過程當中慢慢有趨近，我們有趨近，所以我們還呼籲我們中方談判的不管是同仁也好家屬也好，希望我們能夠再儘速還是以這樣子一個好的氛圍繼續談判下去。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，我希望我們循往例，這樣的事件按照我方的司法、我們的法制、我們過去的執法來進行……"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：不要把這個事件政治化……"],["周副主任委員美伍：瞭解。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個事件是可以按照我們的執法去處理的……"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，瞭解，好。"],["吳委員沛憶：在協商的過程當中如果有條件說，如果是涉及到政治條件說，我希望你們一定要捍衛堅定我們的立場……"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：絕對不能退讓，因為這牽涉到我們海巡執法的正當性……"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然。"],["吳委員沛憶：絕對不能答應！"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：如果答應了，未來臺灣的水域會成為海盜的天堂，所有的三無船舶都來臺灣的海域，絕對不可以讓這樣的事情發生，可不可以做到？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們一定會秉持這樣執法的信念。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝吳沛憶委員的質詢，也謝謝主委，謝謝署長，謝謝。","繼續請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","張啓楷"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案：\n翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130501_00018"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":0.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.13221875,"end":0.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.99284375,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.0559687500000003,"end":6.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.556593750000001,"end":12.754718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.974093750000002,"end":34.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.962218750000005,"end":38.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.438468750000006,"end":41.830343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.50534375,"end":43.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.19284375,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.20971875,"end":46.470968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.22659375,"end":44.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.03659375,"end":45.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.150343750000005,"end":52.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.30971875,"end":54.486593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.773468750000006,"end":63.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.37971875,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.48471875,"end":68.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.77971875,"end":84.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.36784375,"end":89.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.42221875,"end":93.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.44221875000001,"end":97.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.41659375,"end":98.78346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.28971875,"end":100.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.11221875000001,"end":102.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.69846875,"end":103.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.99784375,"end":104.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.36034375000001,"end":108.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.33034375000001,"end":110.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.71409375,"end":114.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.82346875,"end":115.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.00846875,"end":118.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.54409375,"end":119.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.24846875,"end":125.12534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.39534375000001,"end":125.74971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.10409375,"end":129.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.90096875,"end":131.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.07784375,"end":133.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.13659375,"end":139.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.02596875,"end":152.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.42471875,"end":153.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.82534375,"end":155.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.41596875000002,"end":157.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.01471875000001,"end":181.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.48346875000001,"end":184.00221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.39034375,"end":185.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.94284375,"end":186.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.27596875,"end":193.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.70096875000002,"end":202.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.44221875000002,"end":204.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.64034375,"end":208.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.68596875,"end":211.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.77846875,"end":221.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":222.52784375000002,"end":223.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.38409375,"end":225.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.97034375,"end":227.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.80971875,"end":228.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.59846875000002,"end":233.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.12096875,"end":236.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.88846875000002,"end":238.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.62221875,"end":241.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.03534375,"end":242.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.67659375000002,"end":258.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.91284375,"end":243.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.57284375,"end":264.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.78284375000004,"end":273.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.84471875,"end":281.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.73346875000004,"end":301.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沒問題"},{"start":154.824,"end":180.894,"text":"可以好接下來我也想要請問在我們目前跟中方的協商當中我們協商了十多次的次數在協商當中中方有沒有聚焦於要去定義這次的事件是碰撞或是衝撞有沒有聚焦於討論這一個名詞的使用因為它包含了對事件的定義有沒有這樣的事情"},{"start":182.523,"end":210.929,"text":"我想這個部分這個中方他對這個本事事件的定性他一直就是定義在一個惡性的一個衝撞的一個範圍之內那經過幾次溝通了以後他們開始有逐漸的把這個惡性的這個名詞拿掉那剩下撞擊的這個部分"},{"start":211.86,"end":212.82,"text":"那真相要由誰來釐清?"},{"start":239.653,"end":263.161,"text":"必須要由獨立的司法機關來做調查沒有錯現在金門地檢署司法已經介入調查我今天在這裡要再一次提醒這件事這個不是用協商可以來談的包括你們海巡署包括海委會你們也沒有權利沒有資格來對事件做定義因為真相必須交由司法來釐清"},{"start":264.821,"end":281.608,"text":"所以中方及我方我們對於撐撞、碰撞的名詞我們有不同的見解你們在協商當中絕對不能退讓因為這不是用協商可以談的真相要交由司法來釐清海巡署、海委會有沒有辦法保證"},{"start":283.752,"end":298.179,"text":"我們從頭到尾都堅持說台灣是一個法治國家一定要經過獨立的公正的司法審判釐清之後才能夠來依據釐清的責任我們一方面勿萬勿眾一方面我們應該要擔負的責任都會擔負起來"},{"start":301.44,"end":306.544,"text":"沒有錯我們台灣是一個民主法治的國家所以我認為這一次的事件我現在聽下來我的結論是這是一個在執法過程當中發生的意外事故針對意外事故的部分我們在協商以及要交由司法來釐清但是我們海巡署執法的正當性我們政府絕對要來捍衛這一次的事件本身第一件我想要確認的是這個三無船破"},{"start":331.061,"end":334.445,"text":"在臺灣以及中國是不是都是違法的?"},{"start":349.912,"end":366.957,"text":"但中國方面對於三五傳播他們的查緝跟罰則是什麼?他們比我們更重每一艘如果是查緝到的話都是會沒收而且還會罰高額的款然後會要求一定要拆解"},{"start":367.817,"end":385.794,"text":"所以三五傳破在中國也是違法的我想請問過去中國有沒有曾經尋求我方的協助尋求我們一起來進行三五傳破的查緝過去有沒有這樣子的案例過去在兩岸"},{"start":387.044,"end":390.145,"text":"過去曾經發生過?這不是第一次發生嗎?這並不是一個特例嗎?過去有沒有發生過?"},{"start":402.99,"end":405.312,"text":"我們立刻進行搜救沒有延誤"},{"start":430.868,"end":434.439,"text":"第一時間進行搜救,然後我們救回了"},{"start":435.438,"end":461.74,"text":"我們四個人都救回來了那送醫之後有兩位就是因為這個急救無效所以他宣告我們在海上的不管是我們的案件當中發生需要救援或者是海上的救援人道救援過去有沒有發生過尤其是中國的船隻以及中國的船隻這個人員相關需要我們說的過去有沒有發生過"},{"start":462.461,"end":462.481,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":481.112,"end":499.09,"text":"我們在110年我們有8個案件我們救援了8艘中國的船救援了58個人在111年我們有7個案件我們有救援的船數有7艘救援起來的人數有54人"},{"start":500.652,"end":525.711,"text":"一百一十二年有兩次案件救援的船只有一艘救援的人數是七個人所以我們在過去三年我們一共發生了17件這樣子救生救難的案件我們救援了中國16艘的船隻然後也救援了一百一十九個人這是我們一個準確的統計數字"},{"start":527.179,"end":527.199,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":544.809,"end":559.822,"text":"我們最主要的困難點協商沒有辦法達成共識是什麼原因呢?既然這個兩岸協同執法這過去是往例、慣例既然海上的救援這也不是第一次發生這一次我們目前協商遇到的困難是什麼?"},{"start":560.462,"end":587.77,"text":"我想我就由我的角度來看因為這一次中方一直提出一些條件說那譬如說我舉例說明我們說要真相那我們一定要等司法的整個的調查完畢之後他會給一個判斷會給一個判定或者一個結果但是他認為這個我不能夠接受"},{"start":588.79,"end":603.873,"text":"我們這方一定要堅持我們的司法制度我們一定要堅持按照我們的司法制度來走這個程序但他們堅持就是他們的一個想法所以我們在很多的點上面會有一些衝突"},{"start":604.434,"end":604.454,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":622.999,"end":641.044,"text":"還是以這樣子的一個好的一個氛圍我們繼續談判下去我希望呢我們就是徐往立這樣的事件按照我方的司法我們的法治我們過去的執法來進行不要把這個事件政治化這事件是可以按照我們的執法去處理的"},{"start":642.464,"end":670.298,"text":"在協商的過程當中如果有條件說如果是涉及到政治條件說我希望你們一定要捍衛堅定我們的立場絕對不能退讓因為這牽涉到我們海巡執法的正當性絕對不能答應如果答應了未來台灣的水域成為海盜的天堂所有的三無船破都來台灣的海域絕對不可以讓這樣的事情發生可不可以做到我們一定會秉持這樣執法的信念好 謝謝"},{"start":672.561,"end":672.966,"text":"好,非常謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149300","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149300","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd10e2186c83340f194df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a61ed5d442e98499e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"14:33:30 - 14:45:45","影片長度":"00:12:15","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":735,"end_time":"2024-03-04T14:45:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T14:33:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1713,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（14時33分）謝謝主席及各位先進。有請陸委會的邱主委以及海委會的管主委兩位主委。"],["主席：請陸委會的邱主委以及管主委，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官好。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：我們看到今天國防部，人家的標題就是跟我們召委列的題目一樣，只有你們兩大單位，一個陸委會，一個海巡署，「立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議專題報告」，是什麼專題報告？題目都沒有，沒有這個內容，好歹有個標題吧！標題這麼重要，一個Title這麼重要。我覺得很奇怪，兩位也當過立委，管主委也當了好幾屆，以你在立法院的經驗，我們都很清楚，我在立法院多年都很清楚，你對於這個報告案的Title如果有意見，你事先找她溝通，我請問管主委，你找我們召委溝通了沒有？跟她溝通了沒有？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，有關於這個部分，確實是對召委有失禮之處，我也特別表達了，在這個部分應該受到指責，我也願意接受指責。"],["賴委員士葆：好，謝謝。管主委就已經跟她道歉了，邱主委你要不要也跟她道歉一下，你這個藐視我們高金素梅召委，好像她是你下屬一樣……"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：她不是你下屬，怎麼會這樣子呢？"],["邱主任委員太三：委員這可能過度連結了……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啦！我看你笑嘻嘻，我也笑嘻嘻啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上，我想你也可以看到我們寫了這次立法院內政委員會第2次的全體會議專題報告……"],["賴委員士葆：不可以啦！不可以沒有題目啊！你不是無印良品，你不可以這樣子沒有抬頭，不知道裡面是什麼，都不知道，就寫一個大陸委員會、海洋委員會。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我不瞭解無印良品是什麼。"],["賴委員士葆：人家管主委已經很客氣了，我覺得這點要肯定，她馬上面對這件事情，對召委要夠尊重，你這樣對召委不尊重，瞧不起召委啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，我想對於……"],["賴委員士葆：邱主委，不能這樣子啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：我並沒有改她的題目，我只是題目沒有寫出來，主要的原因……"],["賴委員士葆：那就是你不同意啊，你不屑，你知道嗎？不屑她這個題目！"],["邱主任委員太三：不是不同意，不是這樣子說。我們本來想要在今天口頭報告或書面報告的時候，我們來做說明。"],["賴委員士葆：老實講，我們都很清楚，在立法院多年都知道，面對召委的題目，如果政務官不能同意，有兩個作法，第一個，去跟召委談，談了以後請召委改，改到覺得這樣可以了，我做過召委好幾次，我有列出題目，金管會主委來找過我、央行總裁來找過我，跟我說：賴召委，這題目這樣太刺了、有針，請我改一下。有事好商量，面對面好商量。第二個，題目不改，但是內容可以針對題目來作疑說這個題目訂得不好、事實不是這樣子、這個題目什麼、什麼等等，這個才是正軌，兩位都當過立委啊，怎麼會犯這樣的錯？難道邱主委沒有覺得你這樣錯嗎？不妥，至少不妥！"],["邱主任委員太三：確實值得再商議……"],["賴委員士葆：不妥吧！"],["邱主任委員太三：那在這一點上，我願意向召委表達歉意。"],["賴委員士葆：你也願意道歉？可以啦，這樣你可以回去了。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員替召委出一口氣。"],["賴委員士葆：替你講個話啦！"],["主席：謝謝，也謝謝我們主委的大器，也謝謝你的理解。"],["賴委員士葆：邱主委，請你回去休息一下。","來，管主委，最近有人提一個事，你當立委，其實我們大家看你的表現是有模有樣的，主委在這個事情之前也並沒有什麼太大的問題，可是這個事情出來之後，我就覺得……","邱主委一起來，你喝一口水，可以了？不好意思！"],["主席：再請邱主委，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：這個事情到目前為止，你不覺得兩岸的惡意螺旋上升嗎？請邱主委先回答，有沒有看到這樣，惡意螺旋？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上，我們不覺得我們有惡意啦！"],["賴委員士葆：對岸有惡意啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：但是我們看到的是對岸從第2天開始，所有國臺辦的新聞記者會，並不想把這件事情比照過去……"],["賴委員士葆：對岸有惡意啊！當然我們要……"],["邱主任委員太三：報告委員，我剛剛大概有跟幾個委員講過了，其實兩岸發生這種意外事件，過去大概有9次的協商，很快就解決了，我們的人民在大陸大概也有3次，所以其實這個處理的機制過去都有經驗了。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！現在為什麼處理成這樣？"],["邱主任委員太三：我想這應該是問對岸，不是問我們。"],["賴委員士葆：不是問對岸，問你啦！"],["邱主任委員太三：我們看到海巡署就是積極的想要儘速去處理……"],["賴委員士葆：因為至少在我看來，你們有意無意的想讓這一次變成兩岸繼續的惡意螺旋上升，然後讓美國介入來協調，變這個樣子，要緊抱美國大腿。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我看你這個稍微有一點過度的聯想。"],["賴委員士葆：我聯想很好。"],["邱主任委員太三：我跟委員提一下差異，今天是在金廈水域，是兩岸人民的漁場，大家互相關意，這不是臺海中線。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道啦！但是因為現在……"],["邱主任委員太三：所以不要把它聯想到什麼美國或是其他國家，這是只有我們的禁、限制水域，這個不是鄰海。"],["賴委員士葆：因為處理不好，所以海警、海監的船也跑過去抓我們金門啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，過去發生一些意外的案例多得是啊！"],["賴委員士葆：他們現在跑來了啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：剛剛海巡署署長不是講了嗎？過去好幾次都有處理的經驗。"],["賴委員士葆：其實我們大家都很清楚，大家都知道本來這個事情，比方像廣大興，我們被菲律賓撞船了，我們就要求幾個嘛，大陸要的就跟我們一樣。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，那個恐怕不一樣，這個可能要把屏東地檢署的相關調查資料拿來好好看，會發現有很大的差異。"],["賴委員士葆：假如撞船，我說假如撞船，現在你們是定調……"],["邱主任委員太三：因為就像我講的，那是在公海發生的爭議。"],["賴委員士葆：第一個，大家要真相，全世界都要真相，你們不反對吧？"],["邱主任委員太三：對啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們也是等到司法……"],["賴委員士葆：第二個，要人道，好歹要關懷吧！"],["邱主任委員太三：我看管主委已經很關懷了。"],["賴委員士葆：有嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：不然您請……"],["賴委員士葆：來，你也藉這個場合跟大陸喊話要不要？你在這裡，以你政務官的高度……"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，這件事情發生以後，許副署長可以做見證，我第一時間請他一定要找高僧來超度、來設置靈堂，然後要給予安寧，然後開始素齋……"],["賴委員士葆：請問有沒有跟家屬道歉，有沒有？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們也請了海巡署署長下去，也致贈了撫慰金，也跟家屬會面……"],["賴委員士葆：好，撫慰金致贈多少錢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：也上香致敬，也跟亡者致歉……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要一直講，我時間有限，不能這樣拖啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：那家屬……"],["賴委員士葆：你回答問題好不好？請主席阻止她講話一下，我沒有請你講，請你不要講好不好？"],["主席：抱歉，我們互相尊重一下……"],["賴委員士葆：互相尊重嘛！不要一抓到就一直講，我都沒辦法講了。"],["主席：請主委就他的問題來回答好嗎？謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：我有很多要問。周署長。"],["主席：請周署長，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：周署長，請問你有沒有展現你對家屬的關懷、對這個事情的關懷？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，有。"],["賴委員士葆：有嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：我是親自跟他們……"],["賴委員士葆：親自去嘛！也親自道歉，是不是？"],["周副主任委員美伍：親自表達我們的歉意。"],["賴委員士葆：親自道歉？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我是跟家屬對這件事……"],["賴委員士葆：署長就做得很好！"],["周副主任委員美伍：不是……"],["賴委員士葆：這件事你為什麼沒有公開說？這是很好的事情啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：有發布了新聞，指派……"],["周副主任委員美伍：其實我們陸陸續續都有發新聞……"],["賴委員士葆：人道關懷請署長做，其實人家覺得如果主委做更好啦，如果主委能夠這樣，你也公開表達歉意，你一直不願意嘛！到目前為止，你也不願意道歉啊！"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有、沒有，我們一直都有表達。"],["賴委員士葆：不管誰怎麼樣，最少發生在我們的海域裡面，死了人，人命關天啦。"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒錯。"],["賴委員士葆：好歹我們也表示在我們這裡發生這件事，我很抱歉，對他的家屬。道歉又分兩個，慰問跟人道關懷，就是道歉、慰問，要對死者或者對死者家屬，要對哪一個，或者二個都是？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我有親自到死者的殯儀館上香向他們追悼，也特別跟死者的家屬當面致意。"],["賴委員士葆：所以等於是你對死者跟死者的家屬都道歉了。"],["周副主任委員美伍：都有做。"],["賴委員士葆：請問管主委，你可以做同樣的事情嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，這件事情發展到現在，對於家屬來講，我們沒有錄影帶，真的讓他們非常地煎熬，這個部分真的要公開地，再度不斷地表達我們的歉意。至於我們的溝通，溝通到最後會怎麼樣來處理這件事情，我想應該還是要回歸到整個溝通的過程。"],["賴委員士葆：好，最後一個東西，有沒有談到賠償呢？署長，賠償有沒有？開始談了有？這個賠償很重要。"],["周副主任委員美伍：已經開始談，只是我們所用的名詞不是賠償，我們用的是……"],["賴委員士葆：補償？"],["周副主任委員美伍：撫慰金。"],["賴委員士葆：好，「撫慰金」也可以啦！價格多少，或者是有銀兩多少可以分？"],["周副主任委員美伍：這方面我們可能不便透露，因為現在都還在溝通當中。"],["賴委員士葆：我聽到的，最少是100萬人民幣起跳喔！是不是？還是沒有這麼多？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們還在跟對方做一些……"],["賴委員士葆：你告訴我，因為我看了廣大興的事件、其他事件，還有過去也是有這樣的事件，算起來大概要100萬人民幣左右，是不是這樣？"],["周副主任委員美伍：如果說按照過往陸委會、海基會處理陸人在臺死亡的這種意外，或者是臺方的人在大陸死亡的意外，我們都有很多案例。"],["賴委員士葆：是，所以大概……"],["周副主任委員美伍：海基會跟……"],["賴委員士葆：平均……"],["周副主任委員美伍：大概平均都是在三到四百萬臺幣左右。"],["賴委員士葆：三百、四百萬相當於人民幣的多？"],["周副主任委員美伍：人民幣大概是80萬到100萬。"],["賴委員士葆：所以差不多嘛！你看，我的gusts feeling多準啊！「GUSTS」gusts feeling！多準啊！100萬人民幣，所以這就是你的reference line（參考線），我覺得人道撫卹這部分解決完了，很多東西就解決掉了。"],["周副主任委員美伍：會、會、會，我們會。"],["賴委員士葆：老實說，我們也不必讓管碧玲來這裡嚷嚷，然後又辛苦得要命。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員……"],["賴委員士葆：我的時間到了，你不要講比較快啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，這個部分已經不是問題，不是因為這個問題卡住的，所以我們真的也很希望，人道的這個部分解決的時候，我們能夠就回歸人道，但是目前我們還在努力……"],["賴委員士葆：你既然講了，我就講一句，請問去協商你要多少、我要多少的是誰？是你在談的嗎？是副署長嗎？是不是因為你比較帥所以是你談？"],["主席：不好意思，賴士葆委員您的質詢時間到了，我們也謝謝兩位主委，然後署長及副署長，謝謝。","接續我們請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝喔那管主委就已經跟他道歉了嘛求主委你要不要也跟他道歉一下你知道這個藐視藐視我們高軍宿美張偉勒好像他是你下屬一樣他不是你下屬勒委員這可能過度"},{"start":109.019,"end":111.32,"text":"你不是無良...你不是什麼...無孕良貧吶!"},{"start":131.869,"end":132.789,"text":"我並沒有改他的題目我只是把題目沒有寫出來"},{"start":160.598,"end":189.208,"text":"那主要的原因那就是你不同意啊你不是不同意啦不是說我們本來想要在今天口頭報告的時候或書面報告的時候我們來老實講我們都很清楚在立法院多年都知道面對召委的題目如果政務官不能同意的話兩個做法第一個去跟召委談談得要請召委改改到覺得欸?這樣會三年我做過召委好幾次啊我有列出題目"},{"start":190.953,"end":192.715,"text":"中共的主委來照顧我,邀請總裁來照顧我說,欸,來照顧我,這地方這樣太臭了,有尖,蓋起來這樣齁"},{"start":201.24,"end":220.616,"text":"有事好商量面對面好商量第二個題目不改但是內容呢他可以針對題目來做以說這個題目定的不好是不是不是這樣子這個題目呢什麼什麼什麼等等這個才是正軌兩位都當過立委啊怎麼會會犯這樣的錯我覺得"},{"start":224.333,"end":236.447,"text":"難道邱主委沒有覺得你這樣錯嗎?確實值得再商議那在這一點上我願意向召委表達歉意你也願意道歉喔"},{"start":237.543,"end":239.045,"text":"賴士葆,最近有人在提一個事"},{"start":257.981,"end":287.51,"text":"你在立委其實我們大家都看你的表現是有沒有有用主委在這個事情之前也並沒有什麼太大的問題可是這個事情出來之後我就覺得邱主委一起來你喝夠水可以了再請邱主委謝謝這個事情到目前為止你不覺得兩岸的惡意螺旋上升嗎請邱主委先回答"},{"start":288.774,"end":288.894,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":305.814,"end":322.432,"text":"報告委員我剛剛大概有跟幾個委員講過了其實兩岸發生這種意外事件呢過去大概有9次的協商的很快就解決了那我們的人民在大陸大概有3次所以其實這個處理的機制過去都有經驗那我想這應該是問對岸"},{"start":326.576,"end":327.117,"text":"我看你這個稍微有一點過度的聯想"},{"start":354.258,"end":359.764,"text":"今天是在我跟委員提一下差異今天是在金下水域是兩岸人民的漁場"},{"start":361.596,"end":362.337,"text":"其實我們大家都很清楚了"},{"start":390.182,"end":413.561,"text":"大家都知道這個事情廣大型我們被菲律賓撞船了我們就要求幾個嘛這個大陸要的就跟我們一樣委員那個恐怕不一樣喔那個這個可能要憑憑那個歷史的相關調查然後好好看因為就像我講的那是在公海發生的爭議第一個大家要真相全世界都要真相"},{"start":414.71,"end":417.571,"text":"公務員報告,公務員報告這件事情發生以後"},{"start":435.979,"end":436.84,"text":"請問有沒有跟家屬道歉?有沒有?"},{"start":452.201,"end":465.904,"text":"我們也請了海巡署的署長下去也致贈了撫慰金也跟家屬懷念有上香致敬也跟亡者致歉我實在有幸不能這樣說我回答問題好不好 那個請主席指指他講話一下我沒有請你講 請你不要講好不好我們要互相尊重一下 請主委就他的問題來回答好不好謝謝"},{"start":479.896,"end":507.244,"text":"來 周署長請問你請問你有沒有展現你的對家屬的關懷對這個事情的關懷 有沒有是 有有嘛喔我是親自親自去嘛親自道歉嘛親自表達我們的歉意親自道歉我是跟家屬對最近署長你做得很好這個事情你現在不說 我要說嗎"},{"start":511.354,"end":534.684,"text":"其實我們陸陸續續都有發新聞人道關懷署長做其實人家覺得如果主委做更好啦如果主委能夠這樣子你也公開表達歉你一直不願意嘛到目前為止你也不願意表達歉啦最少不管誰怎麼樣最少發生在我們的海域裡面死了人"},{"start":538.288,"end":538.328,"text":"賴主席"},{"start":545.499,"end":573.655,"text":"請問你,這個道歉的分別兩個喔,我也問喔,人道的關懷就是道歉嘛,我也問對死者,或者對死者家屬,對哪一個?或者兩個都是?我有對死者親自到這個殯儀館上香,也向他們追悼那也特別跟死者的家屬當面致意所以等於說你對死者跟死者的家屬都道歉?都有做,都有做那個請問,管主委,你可以做同樣事情嗎?"},{"start":576.636,"end":601.864,"text":"各位委員報告這件事情發展到現在對家屬來講我們沒有錄影帶真的讓他們非常的煎熬這個部分真的要公開的再度不斷的表達我們的歉意至於說我們在溝通最後我們溝通最後會怎麼樣來處理這件事情我想應該還是回歸到我們溝通的過程"},{"start":603.885,"end":604.025,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":618.826,"end":619.988,"text":"我聽到了最少100萬人民幣起跳"},{"start":634.397,"end":637.318,"text":"如果說按照過往陸委會、海基會處理陸人在臺死亡這種意外或者是臺方的人在大陸死亡這種意外我們有很多的案例"},{"start":662.751,"end":668.916,"text":"海基會大概平均都是在3到400萬台幣左右3到400萬台幣人民幣大概80萬到100萬"},{"start":681.468,"end":681.588,"text":"委員這個部分"},{"start":703.317,"end":703.457,"text":"主席賴士葆"},{"start":724.566,"end":724.726,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"149299","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149299","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddbd2a1335bf8fa0094df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a634ef1c60a9781cbd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"14:22:22 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14:33:19","影片長度":"00:10:57","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":657,"end_time":"2024-03-04T14:33:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T14:22:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1576,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（14時22分）主席，有請管主委。"],["主席：有請管主委，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：主委，其實上午我在內政委員會待了很久，聽到非常多的質詢。你不斷強調為了維繫談判的氣氛、保持善意，所以很多談判過程、內容、細節，你都不對外透露，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們一直都沒有透露，我想我們……"],["羅委員智強：我支持這一個做法。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們一直都沒有透露，但是今天在這裡的時候……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我跟你講，你到國會質詢，你必須有答詢的義務，這一點沒有問題。我想請教你，你知道上午的時候王定宇臉書爆料，對岸談判代表提出的要求就是臺灣海巡人員到中國接受訊問，請問有無此事？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我沒有看到這樣的報導，我們是不是……"],["羅委員智強：我只問你有沒有這件事？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們是不是請我們副署長來說明，好不好？"],["羅委員智強：時間暫停。"],["主席：好，我們時間暫停，然後有請副署長。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員好，在溝通的過程當中，陸方有曾經提過這樣子的說明，但是經過幾次的溝通之後，他們已經沒有這樣子的訴求。"],["羅委員智強：所以換言之，這個訊息就是你們告訴王定宇委員的嘛！既然已經證實有這個訊息，那我想請問您……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，對不起，這次媒體有很多訊息被報導出去，那我們海巡這邊……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我要跟管委員說，你今天來這裡報告，你就該把這個事項在這裡報告，你們透過任何方式，剛剛也被你們的人員證實，是你們透露給王定宇，那就違反剛剛你一直強調的，遇到你不想回答的問題，就說今天事涉談判機敏，你不便透露，事涉偵查不公開，不便透露，遇到王定宇就會轉彎，沒關係，你要事涉談判的內容不公布，要保持善意，我可以接受。我就問目前幾個大陸方面公開的要求，不是談判內容，國臺辦發言公開要求臺方儘快公布事實真相，我今天一整天聽，你認為事實真相已經公布了嘛！對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有，委員，事實的真相我們從頭到尾……"],["羅委員智強：交給檢方偵查嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們從頭到尾就是所有的事證……"],["羅委員智強：所以你到目前為止，你也不認為你們公布事實真相……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們交給檢察……"],["羅委員智強：那我們今天在這邊幹什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們不偏不倚……"],["羅委員智強：我們在這邊幹什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員……"],["羅委員智強：我們要的不就是事實真相嗎？委員，你不用那麼快一直想要設防……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，這是司法的程序才能夠回答的問題。"],["羅委員智強：第二個問題，嚴懲相關責任人，我想請問你，嚴懲相關責任人也做不到嘛！因為你認為海巡沒有執法過當嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，責任需要釐清。"],["羅委員智強：海巡沒有執法過當嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我今天的第一點聲明，我今天的第一點……聲明……"],["羅委員智強：你剛剛從早上到現在，是不是認為海巡沒有執法過當，連這個都無法回答？"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前海巡署的跡證顯示，海巡署並沒有過失……"],["羅委員智強：所以也就沒有嚴懲的問題啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是所有的一切，所有的一切都需要檢察官來還原真相。"],["羅委員智強：第三個，向遇難者家屬道歉，你做得到嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們跟家屬的道歉……"],["羅委員智強：僅限於沒有錄影嘛！我都有聽到啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，當事證的真相還沒有釐清的時候……"],["羅委員智強：你到現在為止，這麼明確的問題都不回答，沒有關係，好！我接下來問你，第一個，顯然你只有針對錄影的部分會道歉，希望你在談判秉持這一點，你們也說過不會書面致歉，也不會口頭道歉，除了錄影之外，你們做得到這一點嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，談判……"],["羅委員智強：做得到做不到？"],["管主任委員碧玲：談判未來還需要……"],["羅委員智強：你到現在為止講的東西，你剛剛早上跟委員詢答，你就說沒有責任啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：今天這裡不是談判桌，在溝通上會如何進行，不是……"],["羅委員智強：我再請教你下一個問題，海巡人員非常辛苦，我們大家都應該當他的後盾，你認同吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對不起，我一直在回答委員……"],["羅委員智強：你看嘛！你搶答沒有聽問題，我們都要當海巡人員的後盾，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們海巡……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你，要當海巡人員的後盾，要建構海巡人員可以有安全、有尊嚴的執法環境，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們盡全力要做到這一點。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝你認同。那我想請問你，專業領導算不算是一個建構海巡人員尊嚴跟安全執法的一個項目？"],["管主任委員碧玲：領導當然很重要，需要卓越的領導。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你也認同當然是，我想請問你，不算代理主委周美伍，你的前一任海委會主委是誰？天啊！你不會不知道吧！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我不會不知道啊！"],["羅委員智強：告訴我。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們李仲威主委啊！"],["羅委員智強：李仲威主委的經歷是什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：李仲威主委確實是在海巡……"],["羅委員智強：海軍中將，對不對？海巡署署長，海委會主委之前當過海軍副司令、海軍艦隊指揮官，我想請問你，你有任何海巡經驗嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我的領導，我的領導是……"],["羅委員智強：你有沒有任何海巡經驗在當這個主委之前？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我的領導是如何，我想由我回答不公平。"],["羅委員智強：有沒有？有沒有？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我的領導……"],["羅委員智強：你沒有啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我的領導是如何，讓海巡來評價。"],["羅委員智強：你沒有啦！我跟你講，海委會主委，海巡署的上級主管，不是讓你來這裡當實習生耶！"],["管主任委員碧玲：可以受社會公評。"],["羅委員智強：我知道，要講這個社會公評，我一定要跟你來公評一下，那你有聽過將帥無能累死三軍嗎？無能包括專業吧！專業上的無能也是一種無能吧！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我不是這樣的領導人。"],["羅委員智強：你有沒有聽過外行領導內行？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，昨天還有海巡的家屬寫簡訊告訴我對我的感謝跟我的領導，你要這樣讓我來……"],["羅委員智強：來！沒關係！我知道你當然沒辦法回答這句話，我要請教您，我跟你講，我從頭到尾不怪您啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：就在我的手機裡面。"],["羅委員智強：我怪的是今天用你的陳建仁，不問專業只問酬庸，我知道這樣說你不服氣啦！沒關係，我再問你一個問題……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我尊重委員的評價。"],["羅委員智強：我問你一個問題，海巡人員在執勤出海的時候都有密錄器，這句話誰講的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員……"],["羅委員智強：這句話誰講的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：出海的時候，我們基本上是會要求……"],["羅委員智強：這句話誰講的？你講的嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：要有攝錄影的設備。"],["羅委員智強：都有密錄器！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們很希望都能夠做到更多的蒐證……"],["羅委員智強：都有密錄器！我告訴你，是李仲威講的，有海巡經驗的海巡署署長，在2019年5月20號接受質詢的時候，公開表示海巡人員在執勤出海的時候都有密錄器，我想請問，這麼……"],["管主任委員碧玲：每一個單獨的任務會有，但是……"],["羅委員智強：那請問你，為什麼這次沒有密錄器？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這次是在海上……"],["羅委員智強：為什麼專業的海巡署長出身的李仲威，他跟你講的SOP就有密錄器，你不專業的管碧玲當主委，你就沒有密錄器？你不是說沒有嗎？現在又有了嗎？要再騙嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我尊重委員這樣跳躍啦！但是跟委員報告……"],["羅委員智強：我問你現在有沒有嘛？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這一艘艇……"],["羅委員智強：只有有跟沒有啊！你不要再跟我講，你已經重複100遍了，這艘艇裝不下攝影設備，但是密錄器多大？"],["管主任委員碧玲：密錄器是有的，但是他在……"],["羅委員智強：有？有沒有交出來？"],["管主任委員碧玲：他在出勤的時候使用的是……"],["羅委員智強：各位媒體朋友，各位我們所有的立院同仁，我今天很高興啊！管主委說有密錄器啦！所以從頭到尾說沒有錄影都是騙人的嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這裡面有密錄器啊！"],["羅委員智強：非常謝謝你啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是出勤的時候，使用的是手持式的攝錄影機，這是符合規定的啊！"],["羅委員智強：手持式攝錄影機有沒有用？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我說的都是這樣完整的，那手持式的……"],["羅委員智強：警察人員有密錄器，海巡人員要不要用密錄器？很多爭議法官判決前都先看密錄器。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，密錄器……"],["羅委員智強：密錄器可以保護自己，非常重要。這句話誰講的？誰講的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：密錄器這件事情……"],["羅委員智強：綠營的立委趙正宇在質詢李仲威講的，李仲威特別強調都有密錄器，而且是使用的密錄器，不是像你晾在旁邊晾乾的密錄器，然後跟你講手持搖晃無法用，密錄器掛在身上會比手持搖晃嗎？你今天交出密錄器來，你說畫面不清楚，我們可以接受，你現在跟我講有密錄器，你又跟我講密錄器沒有用，因為用手持，手持搖晃又沒有用，你就不專業嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：密錄器……"],["羅委員智強：接下來我再問，我要請教您……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，真正的專業是有沒有密錄器，跟這件事情有沒有過失是兩件事。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教你，你知道去年萬華發生一個舉發一位鄧姓女子，持電擊棒違反社會秩序維護法，最後法院裁判不罰的原因是什麼，你知道嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：請委員指教。"],["羅委員智強：因為兩次要求警方都拿不出密錄器的錄影，然後法院的判決是什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，不同的規定有不同的SOP。"],["羅委員智強：他認為今天你沒有密錄器，沒有辦法證實你執法所謂的證據性，所以像這種情況之下，他也只能無奈的判沒有違法。"],["管主任委員碧玲：不會，以這個個案來講，密錄器有沒有不是還原真相有沒有的……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！好啦！我告訴你，照你這樣講，你的報告還說要補充所有的密錄器，你不是自己打臉自己嗎？密錄器這麼不重要？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我沒有打臉，委員，它不是那麼不重要。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係！你說這個也不重要，我告訴你，李仲威你也要打臉，地方法院也要打臉……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個和車禍不一樣。"],["羅委員智強：我想請問你，2016年的管碧玲，那時候憲指部在偵查的時候，憲指部有一個環節沒有錄影，請問你怎麼評價憲指部的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，那次的質詢完全沒有談錄影的問題，在臉書上談錄影問題的時候，是和質詢……"],["羅委員智強：來！來！來！在2月7號，2016年的臉書我唸給你聽，睜眼說瞎話的能力……"],["管主任委員碧玲：你只擷取了其中的一部分。"],["羅委員智強：追蒐證錄影資料……"],["管主任委員碧玲：那一部分在質詢的時候是沒有談的。"],["羅委員智強：主席，時間暫停，他一直打斷啦！"],["主席：我們互相彼此尊重，委員沒有請你回答，麻煩就先不要回答，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：來！我唸給你聽，追蒐證錄影資料，證實關鍵的「簽自願同意書」根本沒錄影，這是國軍憲兵史上的大烏龍，該下臺負責的要有自覺，真的不可以拿基層當替死鬼。我跟你講，為什麼需要藐視國會罪啊？因為就有這種官員，睜眼說瞎話啊！說過的話通通不認啊！我要跟各位講，今天我們都支持海巡，但是一個無能的主委，你只是累死海巡執法人員，密錄器錄影沒有落實這個SOP，不要推給基層當替死鬼，我們都是海巡人員執法的後盾，但是你沒有落實SOP，造成海巡人員有理說不清，這就是2016年的管碧玲批評今天的管碧玲，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：那是斷章取義。"],["主席：非常謝謝羅智強委員的質詢，也謝謝管主委，謝謝。","我們繼續請賴士葆委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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你們透過任何方式剛剛也被你們的人員證實是你們透露給王定宇那就違反剛剛你一直強調遇到你不想回答的問題就是說今天四射談判機敏你不便透露四射偵查不公開不便透露遇到王定宇就會轉彎"},{"start":122.262,"end":141.088,"text":"沒關係,你要試射談判的內容不公佈,要保持善意,我可以接受。我就問目前幾個大陸方面公開的要求,不是談判內容。國台辦發言公開要求,臺方盡快公佈事實真相。我今天一整天聽,你認為事實真相已經公佈了嗎?對不對?"},{"start":142.298,"end":146.784,"text":"交給檢方偵查嘛所以你到目前為止你也不認為你們公布的事實真相那我們今天在這裡幹什麼我們在這邊幹什麼我們要的不是事實真相嗎"},{"start":160.2,"end":178.835,"text":"委員你不用那麼快一直在想要設法第二個問你嚴懲相關責任人我想請問你嚴懲相關責任人也做不到嗎因為你認為海巡沒有執法過大嘛海巡沒有執法過大嘛你剛剛從早上到現在是不是認為海巡沒有執法過大連這個都無法回答"},{"start":179.175,"end":204.015,"text":"目前海巡署的基證顯示．海巡署並沒有過失所以就沒有嚴懲的問題啊第三個,向遇難者家屬道歉你做得到嗎?我們跟家屬的道歉僅限於沒有錄影啦我都有聽到啦報告委員當事證的真相還沒有釐清的時候你到現在為止這麼明確的問題都不回答沒有關係好,我接下來問您"},{"start":205.316,"end":215.772,"text":"第一個顯然你只有針對錄影的部分會道歉希望你在談判秉持這一點你們也說過不會書面致歉也不會口頭道歉除了錄影之外你們說得到這一點嗎?"},{"start":219.321,"end":225.046,"text":"做得到做不到你到現在為止採的東西你剛今天早上跟委員尋答你就說沒有責任呢好我再請教你下一個問題海巡人員非常辛苦我們大家都應該當他的後盾你認同吧"},{"start":238.144,"end":242.787,"text":"我們都要當海巡人員的後盾,對不對?謝謝您。要當海巡人員的後盾,要建構海巡人可以有安全、有尊嚴的執法環境,對不對?"},{"start":256.988,"end":270.502,"text":"專業領導算不算是一個建構海巡的一個專研跟安全執法的一個項目?領導當然領導是很重要需要卓越的領導我想請問您不算代理主委周梅武你的前一任海巡海委會主委是誰?"},{"start":272.625,"end":275.466,"text":"李綜威主委的經歷是什麼?海軍中將、海巡署署長、海委會主委之前當過海軍部司令、海軍艦隊指揮官。你有任何海巡經驗嗎?"},{"start":294.511,"end":301.094,"text":"你有沒有任何海巡經驗在當這個主委之前?有沒有?有沒有?你沒有啦!你沒有啦!我跟您講海委會主委海巡署的上級主管不是讓你來這裡當實習生欸!今天待會我知道要講這個社會公平我一定要跟你來公平一下那你知道聽過降帥無能累死三軍嗎?"},{"start":323.504,"end":327.006,"text":"無能包括專業吧!專業上的無能也是一種無能吧!你有聽過外行、領導、內行?來!沒關係我知道你當然沒辦法回答這句話齁!我要請教您齁!我跟你講我抽抽袋也不怪您啦!"},{"start":343.154,"end":344.375,"text":"海巡人員在執行出海的時候都有密錄器這句話誰講的?"},{"start":358.924,"end":364.407,"text":"這句話誰講的?這句話誰講?你講的嗎?都有密錄器!都有密錄器!都有密錄器!我告訴你是李仲威講的有海巡經驗的海巡署署長在2019年5月22號接受質詢的時候公開表示海巡在執行出海的時候都有密錄器"},{"start":385.66,"end":388.201,"text":"請問你為什麼這次沒有密錄器?為什麼專業的海巡署長出身的李仲威他跟你講的SOP就有密錄器你不專業的管碧玲當主委你就沒有密錄器"},{"start":409.537,"end":414.42,"text":"你不是說沒有嗎?現在又有了嗎?又要再變嗎?我尊重委員這樣跳躍啦吼但是跟委員報告我問你現在有沒有嗎?這一艘艇喔這一艘艇只要有跟沒有啊你不要再跟我講你已經重複100遍了這艘艇裝不下攝影設備但是密錄器多大?密錄器是有的"},{"start":429.451,"end":431.172,"text":"有 交出來 有沒有交出來各位媒體朋友啊 各位我們所有議員同仁我今天很高興啊 管主委說有密錄器啊"},{"start":440.942,"end":446.967,"text":"所以從頭到尾說沒有錄影都是騙人的嗎?非常謝謝你啊!手持式攝錄影機有沒有用?警察人員有秘錄器,海巡人員要不要用秘錄器?很多正義法官判決前都先看秘錄器秘錄器可以保護自己,非常重要,這句話誰講的?"},{"start":468.153,"end":496.955,"text":"誰講的密錄器這件事情律營的立委趙正宇在質詢李中威講的李中威特別強調都有密錄器而且是使用的密錄器不是像你晾在旁邊晾乾的密錄器然後跟你講手持搖晃無法用掛在身上會手持搖晃嗎密錄器你現在叫出密錄器來你說畫面不清楚我們可以接受啊你現在跟我講有密錄器你又跟我講密錄器沒有用因為用手持手持搖晃又沒有用"},{"start":498.103,"end":517.465,"text":"你就不專業嘛接下來我再問我再想要請教您我現在請教您有沒有秘錄器跟這件事情有沒有過失是兩件事我想請教您你知道去年萬華發生一個舉發一位鄧迅女子然後違反社會資訊文法持電急報"},{"start":518.737,"end":527.738,"text":"最後法院裁判不罰的原因是什麼你知道嗎因為兩次要求警方都拿不出密錄器的錄影"},{"start":528.618,"end":554.006,"text":"然後法院的判決是什麼?他認為今天你沒有秘錄器沒有辦法證實你執法的所謂的證據性所以像這種情況之下他也只能無奈的判沒有違法以這個個案來講秘錄器有沒有不是還原真相好啦好啦我告訴你上次這樣講你的報告還說要補充所有的秘錄器你不自己打點自己嗎秘錄器這麼不重要"},{"start":555.606,"end":556.867,"text":"沒關係,你說這個也不重要,我告訴你李仲威你要打臉,立法院你要打臉,我想請問你"},{"start":565.814,"end":573.916,"text":"2016年的管碧玲那時候縣執部在偵查的時候縣執部有一個環節沒有錄影請問您你怎麼評價縣執部的報告委員那次的質詢完全沒有談錄影的問題在臉書上談錄影的問題的時候是和質詢來來來你看2月7號2016年2016年的臉書我唸給你聽這一點說香話能力留下來有追搜證錄影資料執行執行暫停"},{"start":595.683,"end":601.467,"text":"追收證錄影資料,證實關鍵簽志願同意書根本沒錄影,正是國軍憲兵史上的大烏龍,該下台負責的要有自覺,真的不能拿基層當替死鬼。為什麼需要藐視國會罪?"},{"start":621.789,"end":634.917,"text":"因為就有這種官員曾有說瞎話啊說過的話通通不認啊我要跟各位講今天我們都支持海巡但是一個無能的一個主委一時累死海巡執法人員"},{"start":635.998,"end":636.619,"text":"非常謝謝羅智強委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"149298","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149298","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd2f8eb40d6b357e264df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a6e6ab61d496b3de135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"14:10:46 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Kacaw","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","張啓楷"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案：\n翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130501_00018"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.4990937500000001,"end":6.342218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.81909375,"end":6.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.434093750000002,"end":13.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.429718750000003,"end":44.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.63159375,"end":46.470968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.33596875,"end":46.572218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.572218750000005,"end":47.095343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.12909375,"end":78.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.63034375000001,"end":87.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.37596875,"end":132.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.33096875,"end":161.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.17034375,"end":178.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.97346875000002,"end":188.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.26721875,"end":252.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.71284375000002,"end":272.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.30034375,"end":274.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.42659375,"end":303.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.73034375000003,"end":362.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.42159375,"end":362.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.47221875,"end":364.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.70846875,"end":363.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.88971875000004,"end":366.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.10471875,"end":365.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.25221875,"end":370.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.88846875,"end":383.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.13596875,"end":384.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.70096875,"end":390.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.82721875000004,"end":387.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.36659375000005,"end":418.98659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.03721875,"end":424.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.96471875000003,"end":440.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.07409375000003,"end":426.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.82784375000006,"end":435.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.15221875000003,"end":506.28096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.46659375,"end":530.3784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.13784375,"end":599.7178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.7178437499999,"end":601.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.89471875,"end":624.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.10221875,"end":625.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.9753437500001,"end":628.16909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.686,"end":6.627,"text":"因為時間有限所以我就不要浪費太多時間因為今天早上大家已經花了非常多的時間想要釐清這整件事情但其實這整件事情對我們來說最重要的是中國的步步進逼"},{"start":27.611,"end":27.751,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":47.249,"end":71.123,"text":"反射中事件也是先由病調犯罪的一個方式然後再藉由修訂逃犯條例然後一直造成香港事件的爆發這是中國非常典型的手段所以今天在這個有限的時間因為非本委只有10分鐘我就只先把這樣的一個事實還有這樣的一個框架先釐清釐清之後我只問兩個問題就是我寫在上面的一個就是我們對未來的預判到底會是什麼樣子"},{"start":71.923,"end":77.891,"text":"以及我們對於過去的透明措施應該要怎樣才可以預防這樣的事情發生 抵擋中國的一個攻擊"},{"start":79.67,"end":100.996,"text":"好那第一件事情就是呢中國這整體的框架對於我們的攻擊呢一直以來都是法律跟輿論不斷的交錯大家可以看到在2月14號國台辦先定調我們的執法是粗暴跟危險然後到2月17號宣稱我們的這個水域不存在這件事情之所以重要是因為他要否定台灣執法的一個權利進而去擴張中國執法的權利"},{"start":102.876,"end":131.729,"text":"所以單單光是擴張執法權利這件事情就不是那麼簡單的說我們在取締快艇翻覆的一個事實而已而是中國想要藉由這樣的一個藉口去擴張在我們這邊的執法權利連我們的國防部長都說這個可能會建立一個新常態那2月18號是大家比較容易忽略的是王毅在受訪的時候呢定調了這是一個中國跟反對台獨那我想先問一下這個主委請問我們這件事情跟台獨有什麼關係"},{"start":132.489,"end":160.364,"text":"完全沒有關係,報告委員這是一個單獨個別的執法事件那其實過去也曾經發生過那我們一定可以找到一個很方便很容易來好好處理的一個SOP因為我們其實是有經驗的而且兩岸的海事上面的工作過去長期是在救生救難也好協同執法也好在這一方面相當程度是有一個善的橋樑"},{"start":161.485,"end":161.625,"text":"我們看下一頁"},{"start":179.136,"end":208.309,"text":"就是剛剛我們在博弈委員的就已經有講過這個關於我們管委員的一個虛假對話想要製造這樣的一個輿論風向進而去定調一個法律的框架在下一頁所以現在我們在遇到的狀況是什麼呢就是大家今天一直在討論到底他是不是一個撞船事件他到底要不要使用這樣的名詞在這邊告訴大家在2月27號之前中國根本就沒有用撞船這兩個字他是從國台辦開始定調這個叫214惡性撞船事件"},{"start":208.909,"end":232.947,"text":"所以這跟我們的教育部怎麼規定撞這個字一點關係都沒有它就是中國想要製造一個新的名字跟新的法律框架讓我們在這個框架下面來討論這個案件所以從那個時候開始呢臺灣竟然還有投書可以同步把這個惡性撞船事件把它變到我們的這個報紙的這個評論顯然很明顯的就是有一個聯合的操作"},{"start":233.627,"end":252.723,"text":"所以這件事情對我們來講呢到2月29我們排案使用這樣的一個字眼這個字眼在迎合中國框架對我們來講就非常的危險因為這是一個中國重要的一個灰色地帶的作戰所以如果我們不能夠去抵擋這樣的事情呢會變得非常的可怕但是接下來就是麻煩的地方了我想問一下喔換下一位"},{"start":253.769,"end":275.056,"text":"當然可以看到在這邊在整個這個網路的這個聲量裡面我們主委應該也可以看到他整個214惡性撞船事件出現大量的文章跟大量的協同操作並藉由川平社跟國台辦相關去定調這樣的一個字眼所以接下來我想問主委的事情就是幫我換下一位再下一位"},{"start":276.508,"end":303.223,"text":"如果我們今天這個事件的發生從他一開始操作輿論然後再去擴大他的執法的權利然後再一直想要讓我們這邊做承認跟道歉去承認這樣的一個新常態我認為這個在以往我們看過八十幾個案例之下已經到大概第五個階段了所以接下來想要請教主委因為這件事情還沒有結束那請問海洋會對這件事情的預判是什麼也就是接下來還會發生什麼事情"},{"start":304.192,"end":329.559,"text":"報告委員海巡署或海委會也好遇到這件事情處理到現在我們就是盡全力在溝通的部分能夠越來越趨近然後去找到共識這個過程其實是有很多的階段每一個階段對方的訴求我們沒有辦法達成共識的部分就一題一題的去解決"},{"start":330.459,"end":330.859,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":354.693,"end":358.436,"text":"我先簡單的問一句就是當時有想到他們會放這個所謂的假的line的截圖嗎?"},{"start":372.183,"end":390.257,"text":"其實我相當的震撼當然在這個LINE的截圖之前我已經就被誤解了很多例如說我請總界的法務人士我沒有想到會操作到這種地方或者是說國台辦會讓我能寫都是意料之外的"},{"start":390.797,"end":418.716,"text":"這邊我想要提醒一點就是中國在這以往的八十幾個案例的操作常常出現這樣的情形除了造假的截圖之外他們也很常做一件事情譬如說假設這邊我們有相關營救到的人員一旦回到了中國之後呢他馬上就請他翻工並做成大量的短影片然後在網路上散播所以如果我們今天能夠預判這件事情發生的話那我們可以事先在我們把人放回去之前應該要讓國人知道中國可能的操作手法"},{"start":419.396,"end":419.636,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":439.43,"end":460.615,"text":"除了這個我們知道海巡署這邊是非常的委屈啦但是還是要告訴大家讓國人知道我們處理這些事情的SOP可能是什麼因為接下來中國可能會有的動作他因為他的定調叫做惡性撞船事件而藉由我們台灣這些所謂把撞船事件提高到這個不管是在政府的層次跟媒體的層次之下"},{"start":461.035,"end":483.542,"text":"他接下來想要做的就是他要怎麼去定調惡行以及他要怎麼去把排毒這件事情帶進來所以如果我們不能讓國人知道中國的操作手法的話後面他再丟出來任何的輿論我們可能就會節節敗退更不要講說他可能還會製造新的法律框架所以這是一個簡單的建議接下來因為只剩2分鐘所以我想換一下一個主題就是因為我們剛剛講的是對於未來的預判"},{"start":485.442,"end":506.039,"text":"我們現在需要比較知道的就是在過往的這個過程當中因為我聽到今天早上一直到剛剛下午之前大家都一直在提密錄器但是密錄器其實它攝影的範圍其實非常非常的小如果我們今天要知道整體的全局的話如果我們想要知道到底發生什麼事情的話密錄器顯然是不夠的嘛"},{"start":506.679,"end":529.925,"text":"所以我們在這邊整理了幾個各個國家在應對這種衝突的時候不同的手段那我這邊就不一一念我會把資料交給海委會再幫我換下一頁大家可以看到在中國的海警船跟其他的對峙的時候搜證的船隻是在第三台也就是它不是在這一台船上面做拍攝再換下一張然後與其像這個是雷射攻擊它也是在遠處做拍攝"},{"start":532.21,"end":546.801,"text":"像這一個非國的船隻跟中國的海警船在對峙的時候很明顯是由空拍的方式做拍攝也因此問題根本就一直不是在密錄器當我們把問題一直糾結在密錄器的時候其實又是掉入對方所設定的框架"},{"start":547.361,"end":559.848,"text":"我們需要知道的是在灰色領域作戰最好的方式菲律賓從2023年開始做的事情就是用第三隻第四隻的船隻或者無人機或者飛機去把這些畫面發下來及時的公佈給大眾"},{"start":563.03,"end":587.735,"text":"所以大家都可以知道說中國的不管是海警還是他的小男人他在怎麼去做這種灰色領域的步步驚逼那我知道所以其實呢我們光是說密錄器到底要多少什麼這已經是個假議題而是說我們如果要做到菲律賓去年做的這些事情的話我們所需要的預算應該要有多少需要的人力應該要有多少海巡這邊呢應該要針對這件事情做一個盤點"},{"start":588.655,"end":589.176,"text":"最後幾個短短的建議只剩10秒鐘"},{"start":607.634,"end":608.075,"text":"沈伯洋委員"}]}},{"id":"149297","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149297","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd01523db85e461c6e4df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a6782d339baf17d91e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"13:29:55 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13:44:58","影片長度":"00:15:03","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":903,"end_time":"2024-03-04T13:44:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T13:29:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1445,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（13時29分）非常謝謝召委，我還是接續一下陳雪生委員剛剛說的，我不同意主委您剛剛的說法，說忍耐，也不同意邱太三主委說的忍耐，因為今天如果有真相，我們不需要忍耐，我們今天有錄音、錄影，我們不需要忍耐，我們大可以在談判桌上把這些證據通通呈現出來，然後讓對岸的人清楚知道不是我們撞死了兩條人命，這當中的細節都會非常的清楚，不是你們今天一昧的說把所有的資料交給了檢調，所有的資料沒有錄音、沒有錄影。就是因為這樣擠牙膏式的方式，才會造成現在外界那麼多的疑慮、兩岸的情勢升高，讓我們的談判代表或專案小組的代表去那邊完全啞口無言，我覺得委屈的是他。所以今天我很高興我安排了這個專案報告，也非常謝謝蘇巧慧委員，從蘇巧慧委員的質詢裡面，我們聽到了署長的回答其實是有非常多的你們手上的資料，所以現在我要請署長到備詢臺上，我要問您幾個問題。"],["主席：有請署長。"],["高金委員素梅：我們的署長不僅僅是海巡署署長，也是政務副主委，而且也是我們專業的海軍，也是我們的國安系統的成員，你曾經待過這麼多的地方，所以我相信你也不樂見今天兩岸情勢升高，你也不樂見海巡署的所有弟兄們因為兩岸情勢的升高，要在這樣兩岸巡防艦隊不對等的狀況之下這麼辛苦的出勤務，所以你也希望落幕，對不對？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是的。"],["高金委員素梅：好，現在我要就幾個問題請教，因為今天我聽到了幾個問題，第一個問題是為什麼會有那麼多的質疑？就是第一時間你們說海巡指事發過程非常短暫，因為忙於救人，所以沒有錄影蒐證，然後你們又改口說，陸船蛇行拒檢，然後不慎翻覆，造成四個人落海，直到有人質疑你們之後，你們又改口講海巡署的艦艇是在高速追逐的狀況之下，船身多次接觸，剛剛你又說其實兩岸之間的協同執法有非常多次，而且你們有密切聯繫，我剛剛又聽到您說其實這件事情不是突發事件。您是大年初三也就是2月12號的時候就已經發現這所謂的三無船，也就是說剛剛您的回應讓我們清楚知道，不是在海上突然出現，而是接到了所有的訊息之後，你們按照SOP來做一些你們應該準備的工作。那現在我要問的第一個問題是，依據海岸巡防機關海域執法作業規範第九條的規定，我們的海巡人員執行職務的時候應該要依照規定穿著制服或出示證明文件，並且要隨時照相、錄音、錄影，或是用其他蒐證的方式保全相關的事證，以為移送主管機關查處的依據，除了這個之外，也是要保護我們的海巡弟兄，對吧？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["高金委員素梅：第十條第二項也有規定，應該要與被檢的船舶保持距離，然後要以雷達監控，同時全程錄影、照相存證，並且要依照規定通報反映，所以按照我們海岸巡防機關海域執法作業規範第九條、第十條，你們早就應該要準備這些東西了，而不是對外宣稱你們沒有密錄器，你們沒有打開錄音裝置，你們並沒有全程錄影。而且您剛剛還準備了一個很大的照片，這個人掉下海，你們有時間照相，那就表示其實你們是有全程錄影的，只是你們不願意拿出來。所以你剛剛講，很多次你們在做這些處理的時候其實是有碰撞。請署長回答我的問題，你們有沒有全程錄音、錄影？如果沒有的話，就是造成這一次這麼多問題產生的原因，你們要不要道歉？當然已經道歉了，你們要不要懲處相關人員？你們有沒有一些行政程序的報告？簡單回答。"],["周副主任委員美伍：好，謝謝召委給我這個機會說明，第一、初三報案的那艘船，我們不能確定它是不是三無船舶，有可能是漁船，有可能是貨船，有可能是其他的船。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝署長的回應，我現在能不能再詢問您，您不能夠確定它是不是三無船舶，那麼你們應該會有通報紀錄吧？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["高金委員素梅：而且這個通報紀錄就我瞭解其實你們在記者會是有公布的，你們公布的通聯時間是12點41分，距離你們修正後公布的案發時間下午1點10分，足足相差了30分鐘，最關鍵的這些通聯紀錄卻不公布。您剛剛又說你沒有辦法清楚知道它是不是三無船隻，所以我們現在連根本的證據都不清楚，你怎麼可以回答我這個呢？那有沒有錄音？"],["周副主任委員美伍：不同時間，初三的報案是民眾打118跟我們報案。"],["高金委員素梅：好，那14號的呢？"],["周副主任委員美伍：14號是我們的雷達監控有快速目標進入到我們的禁限制水域。"],["高金委員素梅：好，既然有了快速的雷達訊息，你們應該很清楚知道就開始有通報機制了吧？"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然。"],["高金委員素梅：這些通報機制的錄音有沒有？"],["周副主任委員美伍：都有。"],["高金委員素梅：能不能提供給我們委員會？有沒有交給檢調單位？"],["周副主任委員美伍：交給檢調單位。"],["高金委員素梅：那可不可以提供給我們委員會？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們現在……"],["高金委員素梅：我想這不是你能不能，這是召委到時候會不會安排的問題。好，第二個問題……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我可能要問一下……"],["高金委員素梅：第二個問題，對不起，您的意思就是有錄音，所以……"],["周副主任委員美伍：另外我……"],["高金委員素梅：所以我很明確的說，你能不能明確的回答我有沒有錄音、錄影？"],["周副主任委員美伍：你所謂的錄影，剛剛你講我們什麼救難為什麼會……"],["高金委員素梅：2月14號有沒有錄音、錄影？"],["周副主任委員美伍：錄音有我們執管的這一部分的錄音。"],["高金委員素梅：全程？"],["周副主任委員美伍：無線電，全程。"],["高金委員素梅：從你們發現了這個所謂的三無船隻，一直到落海、你們如何救人，這個所有的過程都有錄音嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：都有。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。本席待會做一個結論，請你們提供給委員會。"],["周副主任委員美伍：好。"],["高金委員素梅：第二個……"],["周副主任委員美伍：另外我還要給你說明……"],["高金委員素梅：第二個、第二個、第二個、我現在在問，您不用說明了。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我一定要說明，報告召委。"],["高金委員素梅：我要問您的是，為什麼你們不公布完整的無線電通聯紀錄？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們沒有不公布，因為這個已經交給檢調了。"],["高金委員素梅：好，交給檢調那沒關係，我會讓你們提供給我們委員會。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["高金委員素梅：第二個問題就是海岸巡防機關海域執法作業規範第十條有要求要雷達監控，海巡署有沒有掌握事件相關船隻的雷達軌跡圖？有或沒有？"],["周副主任委員美伍：有。"],["高金委員素梅：好，那能不能提供給我們委員會所有的委員來參考？"],["周副主任委員美伍：因為我們上一次開記者會的時候，就請示檢察官我們可不可以在記者會的時候公布資料……"],["高金委員素梅：好，再請問一下……"],["周副主任委員美伍：但是檢察官明確的告訴我們，你們不可以公布。"],["高金委員素梅：我瞭解，好，現在再請問一下，當我們去協商的時候，有沒有提供這個錄音檔給對岸？"],["周副主任委員美伍：這個我們不能提供，因為這個是……"],["高金委員素梅：為什麼不能提供？這個不就是很重要的證據之一嗎？當你們在談判的時候，這不就是很重要的證據之一嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：如果召委你講重要的證據之一，把這個雷達的整個過程公布給他們一看，他就知道當時的情形是怎麼樣了。"],["高金委員素梅：這當然啦！這最好啦！就要釐清所有的問題啊！不是嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：這個東西現在都是要由檢調來決定。"],["高金委員素梅：我不同意你的說法，謝謝署長的回應。我必須要講的是今天很確定的是有錄音，還有雷達軌跡圖，這兩個其實都有，署長的回答是因為你們交給了檢調，所以不能夠提供？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們沒有說不能提供，如果檢調同意我們提供，我們就提供。"],["高金委員素梅：立法院有立法院的規則。"],["周副主任委員美伍：好，對，當然依照規定。"],["高金委員素梅：好不好？謝謝您。"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然依照規定。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝，請你休息一下。","我請問國防部的代表，因為今天我有請國防部列席，也希望你們來表達一些意見。請海軍司令部的副參謀長張副參謀長。請問一下，自從海巡署強化了平時和戰時的轉換機制之後，海巡署的近岸雷達情資是不是已經透過連線情傳給海軍的聯成戰系，你們雙方其實是有互換情資，有沒有這個事情？"],["張副參謀長獻瑞：是的，我們跟海巡署之間有支援協定的簽署，有情資的分享。"],["高金委員素梅：有嘛？"],["張副參謀長獻瑞：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好，我要再請問您，兩岸因為這個金門撞船事件，關係越來越緊張了，這不僅僅只是海巡署的問題，不僅僅是海委會的問題，也不僅僅是陸委會的問題，未來可能會關係到國防的問題。所以請問海軍的聯成戰系可不可以公布你們所掌握的雷達軌跡圖，然後跟我們海巡單位的航軌，把它一起公布？"],["張副參謀長獻瑞：跟委員報告，因為針對這一次的事件來講，我們聯成系統所掌控的目標並沒有包含到這麼小的目標，那這個目標在我們聯成系統掌握的目標部分，像這種近岸水域小型目標的部分，在我們聯成系統是沒有辦法掌握的。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，不好意思喔！前海軍的軍長他有指出，你們以前有大成系統，這個大成系統也就是現在的聯成戰系，你們的聯成戰系，已經跟海巡近岸的雷達……你們透過連線情傳海軍聯成戰鬥系統了。所以你不能告訴我連這麼小的你們都看不到，因為你們的訊息都已經互傳了。"],["張副參謀長獻瑞：跟委員報告，我們跟海巡署之間的目標監控部分，我們是有責任的分屬，就像委員所提的……"],["高金委員素梅：沒有、沒有、沒有，那如果是如你…………"],["張副參謀長獻瑞：在聯成系統上是……"],["高金委員素梅：對，如果如你所講的話，你的意思是，你監測你的一個系統，然後海巡署監測一個系統，是這樣的意思嗎？如果是這樣的意思的話，為什麼你們在媒體上公布的時候，你們不去做一些澄清呢？因為現在我所拿到的這個媒體上的公布是說，你們跟海巡署已經形成了一個情傳系統。"],["張副參謀長獻瑞：情傳系統是有。"],["高金委員素梅：所以情傳系統是有嘛！"],["張副參謀長獻瑞：是有。"],["高金委員素梅：所以只要是海巡署搜尋到的所有軌跡，你們也都會有嘛？"],["張副參謀長獻瑞：就聯成系統的限制來講的話，聯成系統上是沒有的。"],["高金委員素梅：你講沒有沒關係，我覺得國防部還有今天所有在場官員的回應，我們今天至少釐清楚了兩件事情，一、有錄音；二、有錄影；三、我們的國防部其實對這件事情來說，你們不能夠排除在外，因為兩岸的情勢慢慢地升高了之後，其實它危及的不僅僅是金門、廈門或者是澎湖，或者是幾個列島的人民的生命財產安全，它危及的是二千三百萬臺灣人民的安全。所以國防部也好，海巡署也好，海委會也好，陸委會也好，你們必須好好處理這樣的事情，不然的話就是愧對二千三百萬臺灣人民的安全。謝謝。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員，我還是要說明一下，剛剛我講有的錄音，是我們的指管通訊的錄音，錄影是我們的……"],["高金委員素梅：好了，您不要……"],["周副主任委員美伍：雷達，您問我的是……"],["高金委員素梅：好了，你不要在這邊再……"],["周副主任委員美伍：有沒有雷達的軌跡圖，我說有……"],["高金委員素梅：好，另外……"],["周副主任委員美伍：您看到救難的那些畫面是我們的35噸艇，我們一共來了7艘艇，那些艇都有360度的舷外的攝影，那個鏡頭都是來救難的船……"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝你，不要浪費大家的時間。"],["周副主任委員美伍：所看到的、所看到的，那個都是……"],["高金委員素梅：至於本席、召委未來會尋求什麼樣的資料，我再提醒你一下，因為你既然你要在這裡告訴我的話，我要提醒你一下，我們立法院是有職權調閱所有的資料，不要告訴我是國防機密，也不要告訴我已經交給檢調了，所以不提供給本委員會。好不好？謝謝。"],["周副主任委員美伍：不會，我們一定提供。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝，我到時候會邀請你們提供什麼資料，我會再告訴你們，非常清楚地告訴你們，謝謝。"],["周副主任委員美伍：好，我們一定配合。"],["主席：謝謝高金召委的質詢。按照我們召委的宣告，現在我們就休息20分鐘用餐，謝謝大家。","休息（13時45分）","繼續開會（14時9分）"],["主席（高金委員素梅）：現在我們繼續開會，但是有一些官員還沒有回到位子上，我們是不是等一下他們回到位子上以後才開始質詢。等他們回座，好，謝謝。","現在兩位主委都到了，我們繼續開會。請沈伯洋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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d":173.906,"text":"然後你們又再改口說陸船舌形巨減然後不慎翻覆造成了4個人落海到有人質疑了你們之後你們又改口講了海巡署的艦艇是在高速追逐的狀況之下它的船身多次的接觸剛剛你又說"},{"start":176.727,"end":191.281,"text":"其實兩岸之間的協同執法有非常多次而且你們是有密切聯繫而且我剛剛又聽到您剛剛說其實這件事情不是突發事件"},{"start":192.142,"end":218.473,"text":"您是初三的時候大年初三也就是2月12號的時候其實你們就已經發現這所謂的三五船所以也就是說剛剛您的回應讓我們清楚知道不是突然在海上突然出現而是接到了所有的訊息之後你們按照SOP的流程來做一些"},{"start":220.874,"end":248.252,"text":"你們應該準備的工作那現在我要問的第一個問題是依據海岸巡防激光海域執法作業的規範的第9條的規定我們的海巡人員執行職務的時候應該要依照規定穿著制服或者是出示證明文件並且要隨時照相錄音錄影或者是用其他修正的方式保全相關的事證"},{"start":249.173,"end":258.817,"text":"以為移送主管機關查處的依據除了這個之外也是要保護我們的海巡弟兄對吧第10條第2項你也規定應該要與被檢的船舶保持距離然後要以雷達監控同時全程錄影照相存證"},{"start":273.802,"end":284.989,"text":"並且要依照規定通報反映所以按照我們海岸巡防機關海域執法作業規範第9條第10條你們早就應該要準備這些東西了而不是對外的宣稱說你們沒有密錄器你們沒有打開錄音的這個裝置你們並沒有全程錄影而且您剛剛還準備了一個很大的照片"},{"start":300.558,"end":304.262,"text":"這個人掉下去了海裡面你們有時間照相那就表示其實你們全程是有錄影的只是你們不願意拿出來所以你剛剛講很多次你們在做這些處理的時候其實是有碰撞"},{"start":319.156,"end":323.96,"text":"好 請署長您回答我的問題你們有沒有全程錄音錄影如果沒有的話就是造成這一次的那麼多的問題的產生你們要不要道歉當然已經道歉了你們要不要懲處相關的人員你們有沒有一些行政程序的報告簡單回答好 謝謝昭偉給我這個機會說明"},{"start":345.239,"end":357.431,"text":"第一個,出山報案的那艘船,我們不能確定它是不是三、五船舶,有可能是漁船,有可能是貨船,有可能是其他的船艇。好,謝謝署長您的回應,謝謝。我現在能不能再詢問您,您不能夠去確定它是不是三、五船舶,那麼你們應該會有通報記錄吧?是。"},{"start":369.642,"end":387.639,"text":"而且這個通報紀錄就我了解就我了解其實你們在記者會是有公布的你們公布的通聯時間是12點41分然後距離你們修正後公布的案發時間是下午1點10分足足相差了30分鐘"},{"start":389.361,"end":389.561,"text":"高金素梅議員"},{"start":405.2,"end":432.851,"text":"不同時間,初三的報案是民眾打118跟我們報案好,那14號的呢?14號是我們的雷達監控有快速目標進入到我們的境線之處既然有了快速的這樣子的一個雷達訊息你們應該很清楚知道就開始有通報機制了吧?當然這些通報機制的錄音有沒有?都有能不能提供到我們委員會來?"},{"start":434.452,"end":439.855,"text":"有沒有交給檢調單位那可不可以提供到我們的委員會來我想這不是你能不能這是我召委到時候會不會安排第二個問題對不起您的意思就是有錄音所以我很明確的說你能不能明確的回答我有沒有錄音錄影"},{"start":461.002,"end":484.398,"text":"你所謂的錄影,剛剛你講我們什麼救難什麼……2月14號有沒有錄音錄影?錄音有我們執管的這一部分的錄音全程,從你們發現了這個所謂的三五船隻,一直到落海,你們如何救人,這個所有的錄音過程都有嗎?"},{"start":485.739,"end":494.721,"text":"好 謝謝本席會待會做一個結論請你們提供給委員會第二個第二個第二個第二個我要問您的是為什麼你們不公佈完整的無線電通連接我們沒有不公佈因為這個已經交給檢調了交給檢調那沒關係"},{"start":516.329,"end":526.954,"text":"海岸巡防機關海運執法作業的規範第10條有要求要雷達監控,海巡署有沒有掌握事件相關的船隻的雷達軌跡圖?有或沒有?"},{"start":528.243,"end":530.344,"text":"當我們去協商的時候有沒有提供這個錄音榜給對岸?"},{"start":555.273,"end":556.013,"text":"高金素梅主席"},{"start":572.358,"end":580.021,"text":"一公佈．給他們一看．他就知道當時的情形是怎麼樣．所以這個東西現在都是要有檢調來決定我不同意你的說法謝謝署長你的回應所以我要必須講的是今天很確定的是說有錄音還有雷達軌跡圖所以這兩個其實都有的"},{"start":597.228,"end":624.854,"text":"那麼這兩個的回答,署長的回答是因為你們交給了檢調,對不對?所以你不能夠提供?我們沒有說不能提供,如果檢調同意我們提供,我們就提供。立法院有立法的願意支持,好不好?謝謝您,謝謝請您休息一下。我請問國防部的代表,因為今天我也請國防部來列席,也希望你們來表達一下你們的一些,一些這個意見。那請這個海軍司令部的副參謀長,詹副參謀長。"},{"start":630.542,"end":654.704,"text":"謝謝 請把我的時間暫停一下好 請問一下自從海巡署強化了平時和戰時的轉換機制之後海巡署的禁案雷達情資是不是已經透過連線侵傳給海軍的連程戰係你們雙方其實是有互換情資 有沒有這個事情是 我們跟海巡署之間有支援協定的簽署 有情資的分享有嗎是"},{"start":655.365,"end":664.689,"text":"好 我要再請問您兩岸因為這個金門撞船事件關係越來越緊張了這不僅僅只是海巡署的問題不僅僅是海委會的問題也不僅僅是陸委會的問題未來可能會關係到國防的問題所以請問海軍的連程戰係可不可以公佈你們所掌握的雷達軌跡圖然後跟我們的海巡單位的航軌"},{"start":683.937,"end":685.057,"text":"高金素梅議員"},{"start":711.563,"end":733.577,"text":"這個大程系統也就是現在的連程戰系你們的連程戰系已經跟海巡禁岸的雷達強制你們透過連線、勤船、海軍連程戰鬥系統了所以你不能告訴我說連這麼小的你們都看不到因為你們的訊息都已經互傳了"},{"start":735.618,"end":758.385,"text":"各位委員報告,我們跟海巡署之間的目標的監控的部分,我們是有責任的分屬,那就像委員所指的沒有沒有沒有,那如果是如你所講的話,你的意思是說你監測你的一個系統,然後海巡署監測一個系統,是這樣的意思嗎?那如果是這樣的意思的話,為什麼你們在媒體上公佈的時候,你們不去做一些澄清呢?"},{"start":759.105,"end":782.031,"text":"因為現在我所拿到的這個媒體上的公布是說你們跟海巡署已經形成了一個侵船系統所以侵船系統是有嗎?是有所以只要是海巡署搜尋到的所有的軌跡你們也都會有嗎?就連程系統的限制來講的話是連程系統上是沒有的"},{"start":783.668,"end":807.729,"text":"你講沒有沒關係我覺得國防部還有這個今天我們的所有的這個在場的官員的回應我們至少今天離清楚了兩件事情一有錄音二有錄影三我們的國防部其實對這件事情來說你們不能夠排除在外因為兩岸因為兩岸情勢慢慢的升高了之後其實它危急的"},{"start":808.43,"end":808.79,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":828.883,"end":829.084,"text":"高金素梅議員"},{"start":840.197,"end":852.306,"text":"委員我還是要說明一下,剛剛我講有的錄音是我們的指管通信的錄音錄影是我們的雷達,您問我是有沒有雷達的累積圖另外您看到救難的那些畫面是我們的35頓艇,我們一共來了7艘艇"},{"start":860.592,"end":860.812,"text":"高金素梅"},{"start":876.949,"end":900.886,"text":"因為既然你要在這裡告訴我的話我要提醒一下我們立法院是有這個職權調閱所有的資料不要告訴我是國防機密也不要告訴我已經交給檢調了所以不提供給本委員會好不好謝謝我們一定提供謝謝我到時候會邀請你們提供什麼資料我會再告訴你們非常清楚的告訴你們我們一定配合"}]}},{"id":"149296","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149296","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd7819cd10561691c14df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a6916aeac3fb5f28305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"13:16:37 - 13:29:44","影片長度":"00:13:07","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":787,"end_time":"2024-03-04T13:29:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T13:16:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1323,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（13時16分）謝謝我們美麗的召委，辛苦了，是不是請我們海委會。"],["主席：好，有請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：陳委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：主委午安，您當了四任的立法委員嘛？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我們也是老同事了，邱太三主委跟我從國大代表到現在30年了，我們可以說都是老同事，所以我不忍在這個地方來苛責您，我只是滿遺憾的，早上內政委員會高金召集人用「撞船」、「翻船」的字眼引起海委會那麼強烈的反擊，撞船不見得是錯的啊！撞船不見得是錯的，也可能是對的啊！今天在立法院提出這樣的說明報告，我們海委會可以據理說明嘛？這個事件的本身大家很清楚，就是一個警匪的追逐嘛，是不是？很清楚啊！不要說剛才的影片，你看以前楊源明組長是不是帶了槍，警匪的片子。","然後是海巡，我從當縣長一直到現在，我們對海岸巡的弟兄說真的非常的好，我前天跟主委通電話的過程裡面，我說我們縣長、議長、立委對你們海巡、岸巡非常好……"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們很支持，報告委員這個很感謝。"],["陳委員雪生：你們要到地方去看看縣長嘛？署長有沒有看過縣長？看過議長？都沒有啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我去馬祖的時候因為時間很短促，而我們單位非常的多，排完了這些單位以後，確實還來不及來拜會縣長，但是……"],["陳委員雪生：不用拜會，縣長、議長也會去看你們，會到海巡隊去看你們。"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前還沒有這樣的機會，不過委員撞船事件的部分，如果容許我們艦隊分署長來說明，我覺得今天我們就可以比較豁然開朗，好不好？"],["陳委員雪生：剛才已經花了很多時間說明，影片也放過了，大家都很清楚了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，謝謝。因為對中國來講這樣的定義整體下來是一個惡性的、海巡的艦艇撞擊大陸漁船，然後導致翻覆跟死亡的一個惡性的、殘暴的執法行為，整體來講，撞船這樣的一個名詞，在談判桌上的協商的過程當中，這樣的一個定義都是兩方毫無共識的部分。"],["陳委員雪生：我很清楚。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，這一次沒有撞船的事情發生、這一次沒有撞船的事情發生……"],["陳委員雪生：我去過大陸N次了，事情一發生，國台辦、福建省台辦、福州市台辦都跟我密集通電話，都在通話。也就是說這件事情怎麼善了？我告訴你一件事，你看過這個公雞跟蚱蜢在談判嗎？公雞跟蚱蜢談判你有沒有看過？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我知道委員要說什麼。"],["陳委員雪生：動一口就沒有了，是不是？"],["管主任委員碧玲：可是委員，我在這裡真的要嚴正地表達。"],["陳委員雪生：好。"],["管主任委員碧玲：整個事情處理的過程，大家透過認知作戰，把所有的事情歸咎我個人，成為這一次整個協商過程當中的障礙。委員，如果在談判桌上……"],["陳委員雪生：我都知道。"],["管主任委員碧玲：若不是一條一條的障礙在那裡，怎麼會拖到現在？"],["陳委員雪生：不是你談判，我們也談判過。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，每一條障礙都花了好幾天、好幾次，然後我們把這個障礙解除，又有新的障礙出來。在整個過程當中，延續到現在還沒有辦法有共識的時候，在談判桌外建構成我是障礙者。委員，這毫不公平，完全不是事實。"],["陳委員雪生：管媽，早上蘇巧慧委員私底下跟我聊天，他去過金門，去了回來，他曉得金門、馬祖的民眾好委屈，我的委屈你知道嗎？你不要以為你委屈，署長委屈啊！邱太三主委委屈啊！我的委屈你知道嗎？對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，如果……"],["陳委員雪生：就是大象跟螞蟻在談戀愛，是不是？"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果我們內部……跟委員報告，我們的同仁從談判桌回來也說了他們的心聲，當他們在談判桌的時候，看到內部對我的攻擊、對事件的誤解跟對事件的扭曲，變成談判桌上對方拿出來作為談判材料的時候……"],["陳委員雪生：我告訴你……"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們也覺得心酸。"],["陳委員雪生：我告訴你，我沒有參加談判，但是他們在裡面談什麼，我了然於胸。"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果我們全國能夠一致，對外呼籲中國能夠擱置爭議，然後回歸人道，這件事情會讓哪一邊更有力量昭然若揭，會完全不一樣。"],["陳委員雪生：主任委員，我告訴你，面對的就是武力！我看你海巡有20條還是30條，它的白船可以出動300條。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員……"],["陳委員雪生：我在國防委員會質詢的時候，告訴這些中將、上將，你們哪一個人看過萬箭齊發？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們面對的是公理跟正義。"],["陳委員雪生：萬箭齊發，你們看過嗎？你有沒有看過那個景象？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們認為這個世界是有公理跟正義的世界，我們面對的是2,300萬人民的力量、公理與正義。"],["陳委員雪生：今天我們世界上有公平正義的話，加薩去把以色列人……"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果我們不堅持也不會拖到現在……"],["陳委員雪生：弄了300個人，今天死了三萬多個人……"],["管主任委員碧玲：早就全面道歉了。"],["陳委員雪生：還在進行，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果我們不堅持，如果我們不相信我們應該堅持這些價值的話，早就去道歉，早就結束啦！可是我們不能這樣做啊！"],["陳委員雪生：我告訴你，你跟邱太三主委……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這件事情……"],["陳委員雪生：我們真的有一些事情要忍耐，法律的事情歸法律，今天人死為大。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們都是這樣的態度。"],["陳委員雪生：人死為大也只是一個理由而已。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們都是這樣的態度。"],["陳委員雪生：只是我們的尊嚴而已。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們一直拜到今天。"],["陳委員雪生：用人死為大求取我們的尊嚴而已，你應該很清楚。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們人道的方案充滿撫慰家屬的真誠，委員，您也知道。"],["陳委員雪生：我們對面……"],["管主任委員碧玲：可是為什麼談不下來？"],["陳委員雪生：馬祖的對面是誰？是我們的堂兄、堂弟、堂伯、堂叔、親戚。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，所以我們更希望對方用這樣的心情面對金廈海域跟馬祖海域。委員，我一直說這個善的橋樑要珍惜、要維護的時候，不是罵我而已，我們如何呼籲中國……"],["陳委員雪生：我沒有罵你。"],["管主任委員碧玲：整個認知作戰是這樣操作，但是中國呢？中國應該如何擱置政治，回歸人道呢？有沒有足夠的民意、聲音對對岸樣這樣呼籲？我認為高度不均衡。"],["陳委員雪生：兩岸的互動……"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果我們的民意能夠展現高度團結，呼籲中國趕快放棄政治，趕快回歸人道的話，今天或許就不會拖這麼久。"],["陳委員雪生：這個問題太大了，我沒辦法回答你這個問題。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，可是我們必須堅持。"],["陳委員雪生：這個問題太大了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：為什麼到現在我沒辦法就全案道歉？我們很願意就我們應該給予家屬……因為沒有錄影帶……"],["陳委員雪生：我在第一時間也找邱主委……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們讓他煎熬……"],["陳委員雪生：我說主委，這個事情要善了，趕快處理。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們就是秉持這樣的善意一路下來。"],["陳委員雪生：你找金門縣政府嘛！找陳玉珍委員嘛！他們在那邊首當其衝，找他們去談啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：其實委員們都幫忙很多。"],["陳委員雪生：怎麼一下子把它拉高到海巡署署長？"],["管主任委員碧玲：其實委員們都幫忙很多。"],["陳委員雪生：你們跳出來，你們不需要回答問題嘛！由底下的先去答嘛！答了以後再說，是不是？你現在把事情搞到這個地步。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，如果……"],["陳委員雪生：現在海巡出去有看到「三無」的船嗎？一艘都不見了！還看到船嗎？全部躲起來啦！他們抓到的話怎麼處分？在馬祖還看到抽砂船嗎？一艘都不見了，全跑了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果中國能夠在海洋秩序的管理上……其實這是雙方可以共同努力維護……"],["陳委員雪生：我們沒辦法指揮它。"],["管主任委員碧玲：兩岸協同執法長期以來有共同相守的相同價值跟相同的執法規則。"],["陳委員雪生：但是你們海巡跟它所謂的執法支隊，你們底下、檯面下是有聯繫的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，但是這一次……"],["陳委員雪生：為什麼都沒有越界，都沒有越過禁限制海域？我們海巡有沒有越過？他們的船也沒有越過，為什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這一次把單獨的個案、執法事件升高到這樣的政治連結，我們真的不樂見……"],["陳委員雪生：它的「三無」船……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們也認為應該要呼籲，不要用這樣的政治連結來處理。"],["陳委員雪生：它的「三無」船也是白船，他們也在抓，不是我們在抓。"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們的規定更嚴格。"],["陳委員雪生：他們的船越過界了，當然我們去抓，現在在追逐的過程碰到事情，它藉這個事故嘛！所以就善了，怎麼善了？"],["管主任委員碧玲：其實發生過，就是個案處理，但是這一次……"],["陳委員雪生：我覺得您的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：升高為政治是一切問題的根源。"],["陳委員雪生：我覺得你還可以再低調一點，這是我的勸，因為我也很忍耐，我也很委屈，我希望管主委也忍耐一點，該委屈也委屈一點。今天美國的航空母艦不會5艘同時出現在金門海域，不可能的，同時出現在馬祖海域也不可能，我們的水還太淺。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們沒有這樣的意思。"],["陳委員雪生：如果正面交戰的話，美國也不允許你開任何一槍一砲，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：包括這一次整個過程以來都沒有挑釁，沒有升高政治。"],["陳委員雪生：不是蔡總統下令開就開砲，國防部長下令開……我在馬祖，我太清楚了，所以我希望這件事情低調一點，該忍耐一點就忍耐一點。邱主委……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，從發生到現在，所有的專訪我全部都婉拒，唯一就是到立法院被堵麥的時候才有發言，而且都是回應媒體問題的時候所做的發言。"],["陳委員雪生：儘量少發言，好不好？還有邱主委，我請你上台，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，發言的時候回答問題，我們只是必須捍衛海巡執法的正當性。"],["陳委員雪生：讓邱主委講講就好，因為時間快到了，召委一直在趕我下台。我知道。"],["主席（麥委員玉珍代）：時間到，所以要請……"],["陳委員雪生：邱主委，好不好？能夠忍耐儘量忍耐，委屈就委屈一點。"],["邱主任委員太三：我們都密切保持聯繫。"],["陳委員雪生：你們有點管道跟大陸談判嘛！一直這樣下去嗎？你一直這樣下去，我們金門、馬祖現在已經有一點和平區了，這樣搞的話我們又變成前線了。"],["邱主任委員太三：對啦！"],["陳委員雪生：我們要出去打魚，我們靠海維生，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：委員當然也知道，雙方就這件事情也持續不斷的溝通，但是因為有一些基本的堅持，所以……也有已經合意的地方，但還是有不一致的地方，所以繼續溝通。"],["陳委員雪生：你不要說我當潤滑劑，夏立言副主席跑去幫忙講個話，你們把他唱紅，有必要嗎？對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我們應該不會。"],["陳委員雪生：找夏立言副主席去，能夠把這件事情善了都是好事，對不對？我們團結一致，好不好？"],["邱主任委員太三：好。"],["陳委員雪生：因為時間的關係，我就不講了。"],["邱主任委員太三：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：高金委員已經對我很不爽了，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員的質詢。"],["陳委員雪生：你們兩位都是我的好朋友、好同事。"],["邱主任委員太三：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：我對你們沒有任何惡意，管媽，我們在那邊那麼久了，我跟你也沒有惡言相向過，還有邱太三主委，你是民進黨，我是國民黨，我們打架，從打架到後來打籃球，後來到合唱團，我們是好朋友，不需要這樣，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員。","有請高金委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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":[{"start":0.409,"end":7.755,"text":"好,謝謝我們美麗的召委,辛苦了。是不是請我們海委會?好,也請管主委。主委,您當了4任的委員吧?立法委員?是。那我們也是老同事。邱太山主委跟我從國道代表到現在30年了。"},{"start":29.537,"end":55.31,"text":"我們可以說都是老同事所以我不忍在這個地方來苛責您我只是滿遺憾的是早上我們內政委員會高精召集員用撞船、翻船的字眼引起海委會那麼強烈的一個反擊撞船不見得是錯的"},{"start":57.388,"end":84.209,"text":"不見得錯了,也可能是對的啊那今天在立法院提出這樣的說明報告我們海委會可以據理說明嘛這個事件的本身大家很清楚嘛就是一個警匪的一個追逐嘛,是不是很清楚啊,不要說剛才那影片我們你看以前楊元明組長是不是,帶了槍"},{"start":86.417,"end":114.366,"text":"警匪的騙子然後海巡我從當縣長一直到現在我們對海巡、艾巡的弟兄說真的非常的好我在前天跟主委電話的過程裡面我說我們縣長、議長、立委對你們海巡、艾巡他們很支持,包括委員這個很感謝你們到了地方去看看縣長嘛"},{"start":115.865,"end":134.198,"text":"組長有沒有看過縣長、看過議長?人家都沒有啊。各位委員報告,我去馬祖的時候,因為時間很短促,而我們單位非常的多。排完了這些單位以後,確實還不及來拜會縣長。不用拜會,縣長、議長也會去看你們嘛。"},{"start":135.451,"end":137.252,"text":"各位,剛才已經花了很多的時間說明,影片也放過了"},{"start":157.481,"end":161.122,"text":"因為對中國來講這樣的定義整體下來是一個惡性的海巡的艦艇撞擊大陸漁船然後導致翻覆跟死亡的一個惡性的殘暴的執法行為"},{"start":175.828,"end":201.814,"text":"那整體來講這個撞船這樣的一個名詞在談判桌上的協商的過程當中這樣的一個定義都是兩方毫無共識的部分我很清楚這一次沒有撞船的事情發生事情一發生國台辦、福建省台辦、福州市台辦跟我密集電話都在通話都在通話"},{"start":204.608,"end":213.501,"text":"也就是說這件事情怎麼散了我告訴你一件事你看過公雞跟蚱蜢在談判嗎?公雞跟蚱蜢談判你有沒有看過?"},{"start":218.052,"end":222.333,"text":"我知道委員要說什麼可是委員我在這裡真的要嚴正的表達整個事情處理的過程大家在透過認知作戰把所有的歸咎於我個人成為這一次整個協商過程當中的障礙委員如果在談判桌上不是一條一條的障礙在那裡怎麼會拖到現在是"},{"start":245.16,"end":274.107,"text":"每一條的障礙都花了每一條的障礙都花了好幾天好幾次然後我們把這個障礙解除又有新的障礙出來在這樣的一個整個的過程當中延續到現在還沒有辦法有共識的時候在談判桌外建構成說我是障礙者委員毫不公平完全不是事實寡媽早上小會委員蘇小會委員私底下跟我聊天"},{"start":275.182,"end":291.683,"text":"他去過金門,去了回來,他曉得金門馬祖的民眾好委屈喔!我的委屈你知道嗎?你不要以為你委屈欸!署長委屈啊!邱太三主委委屈啊!我的委屈你知道嗎?委員!"},{"start":293.854,"end":321.374,"text":"報告委員．如果我們內部跟委員報告我們的同仁從談判桌上回來也說了他們的心聲當他們在談判桌上的時候看到內部對我的攻擊對事件的誤解跟對事件的扭曲變成談判桌上對方拿出來作為談判的材料的時候"},{"start":322.094,"end":323.595,"text":"主任委員我告訴你面對的就是武力面對的就是武力"},{"start":351.462,"end":365.246,"text":"我看你海巡你有20條還是有30條它的白船可以出動300條我所以在國防委員會質詢的時候我告訴這些東洋上將啊你們哪一個人看過萬箭齊發你們看過嗎我們認為這個世界是有公理跟正義的世界我們面對的是2300萬人民的力量跟公理與正義今天加薩"},{"start":378.889,"end":379.949,"text":"今天法律的事情歸法律"},{"start":406.875,"end":411.177,"text":"我們人道的方案充滿了我們對家屬撫慰的真誠委員您也知道"},{"start":427.825,"end":434.45,"text":"我們對面馬祖的對面是誰啊?是我們唐宗唐帝的唐都啊!唐屬啊!親親啊!委員,善的橋樑我一直說這個善的橋樑要珍惜要維護的時候不是罵我而已我們永遠的恢復中國"},{"start":450.663,"end":451.805,"text":"我認為是高度的不均衡。"},{"start":469.165,"end":470.305,"text":"這個問題太大了我沒辦法回答你這個問題"},{"start":485.231,"end":499.427,"text":"可是我們必須堅持的問題為什麼到現在我沒辦法去就全案做道歉我們很願意就我們應該要給予家屬就因為沒有錄影帶的部分我們讓他監管我說主委這個事情要善了趕快處理"},{"start":504.537,"end":530.029,"text":"我們就是秉持這樣的善意一路下來其實委員們都幫忙很多你們不需要去回答問題嘛有底下的先去打嘛,打了以後再說嘛是不是?你現在把事情講到這個地步你們現在海軍出去有看到桑文的船嗎?"},{"start":531.65,"end":535.369,"text":"一艘都不見了還看到船嗎全部躲起來了"},{"start":543.392,"end":560.924,"text":"如果中國能夠在海洋的管理海洋秩序的管理上面其實這是雙方可以共同努力來維護我們的兩岸協同的執法長期以來有共同相守的相同的價值跟相同的執法的規則"},{"start":565.072,"end":576.698,"text":"執法自對你們底下檯面下是有聯繫的啊為什麼都沒有越界呢都沒有越過禁縣制海域我們海巡有沒有越過他們的船也沒越過啊為什麼"},{"start":577.85,"end":607.089,"text":"所以這一次把這樣的一個單獨的個案執法的事件升高到這樣的政治的連結我們真的是不樂見我們也覺得我們也認為應該要呼籲不要用這樣的政治的連結來處理他們也在抓不是我們在抓他們也抓那我是說他們的船越過界了越過界了當然我們去抓在追逐的過程在追逐的過程碰到事情了現在"},{"start":608.417,"end":634.817,"text":"其實發生過,其實發生過,就是個案處理。但是這一次升高為政治是一切問題的根源。我跟你講話,我覺得你還可以再低調一點。我的勸,因為我也很忍耐,我也很委屈。我希望管主委,你也忍耐一點,你該委屈也委屈一點。"},{"start":636.246,"end":664.882,"text":"今天美國的航空母艦不會五艘同時出現在金門的海域不可能的同時出現在馬祖的海域也不可能的啦我們水還太淺我們沒有那樣的意思所以如果說正面要交戰的話美國也不允許你開任何一槍一砲包括這一次整個過程以來都沒有挑釁沒有升高政治國防部長夏令開我太清楚了我在馬祖我太清楚了所以我希望就是說"},{"start":665.873,"end":666.217,"text":"這件事情"},{"start":671.426,"end":696.21,"text":"委員,從發生到現在所有的專訪我全部都婉拒。唯一就是到立法院來被堵麥的時候我才有發言。而這些發言都是回應媒體的問題的時候所做的發言。委員,發言的時候回答問題,我們只是必須要捍衛海巡執法的正當性而所為。因為時間快到了,我們抓委一直在趕我下來。"},{"start":699.992,"end":721.411,"text":"我們時間到所以要請謝謝委員好不好,能夠忍耐盡量的委員我想我們都密切保持你們有點管道跟大陸談判嘛,一直這樣下去嗎?你一直這樣下去我們金門撞船現在已經有點和平區了欸這樣搞的話又變成前線了我們又變成前線了我們要出去打魚,我們靠海為生欸"},{"start":722.071,"end":747.279,"text":"所以我想委員大概知道雙方大概就這件事情也持續的都不斷的在溝通但是因為有一些基本的堅持所以呢有已經合意的地方但是有還是不一致的地方所以繼續溝通啦你不要說我當論法機夏立言副主席跑去幫忙講個話黑的嗎你們把他唱紅有必要嗎是不是"},{"start":749.007,"end":773.778,"text":"董事長的下禮言、副主席去,能夠去把這些事情散了,都是好事我們團結一致嘛,好不好,我想因為時間的關係我就不講了那個高金委員對我已經很不爽了好不好謝謝我們陳雪生委員的支持你們兩位都是我的好朋友、好同事我對你們沒有任何的惡意,管吧我們在這邊那麼久了,我跟你有沒有惡言相向過"},{"start":775.336,"end":782.284,"text":"還有邱太陽主委你是民運黨我是國民黨我們打架從打架到後來打籃球後來到合唱團我們好朋友"}]}},{"id":"149295","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149295","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd708389ef5fdb41cc4df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a61380563e3f1c2fe45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"13:03:10 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13:16:23","影片長度":"00:13:13","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":793,"end_time":"2024-03-04T13:16:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T13:03:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1306,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（13時3分）謝謝我們召委，我們與會同仁。現在我請我們的海巡署，周署長。"],["主席：有請海巡署周署長。"],["周副主任委員美伍：召委好。"],["吳委員琪銘：署長好。署長，我們都針對議題。今天我看了很多同仁質詢的爭議，就是我們的三無船舶的問題。整個三無船舶，其實我們都知道它是越線，然後整個以我們的常理來判斷，撞船跟擦撞又是不一樣，你撞船的話，你前面一定會有凹陷，這是我們最基本的常理。那大家的爭議，我們整個船隻現在都是由檢調……已經都扣船了，大家也可以看得出來，很多記者也在報，那個船也沒有什麼凹陷，只是一個那個漆、有漆的那個痕跡，那整個事情都是一個很單純。","現在我看到我們今天的同仁都變成有點政治化，所以在整個過程，我也希望透過影片，讓我們社會大眾還有我們的媒體、我們的先進知道整個事件的來龍去脈。為什麼我會找署長上來，因為你是最前線，你當初最清楚。所以我希望這個事件也讓全國民眾知道，這個事件為什麼會發生，整個包含我們後續的救援，大家都是盡心盡力。我們的海巡也沒有說棄之不顧，也沒有啊！所以就很單純的一個事件，我希望各位同仁不要太過政治化，因為我知道，真的海巡弟兄在海上、在執勤，大家都非常辛苦，這一點我是非常的肯定，因為是維護我們的主權。所以你在維護主權的當中難免，都是希望說與對岸大家來做個協調、來做個溝通，大家都是很善意的來處理這個禍事，現在我也透過我的影片，讓大家知道好不好？","（播放影片）","好的，我透過這個影片給我們各位媒體來做參考，其實海巡單位真的非常的辛苦，所以你看一個三無船舶，第一，他們的船隻本身就有問題，就是一個非法的船隻，又越過我們的中線，就比如說我們已經超線過來，然後我們也基於維護國家主權在執行，所以我們也要體諒到海巡署同仁大家的辛苦，所以今天針對這個問題，我也請海巡署署長將整個來做說明，不過我們也基於檢調偵查不公開，偵查不公開的情形，我們還是要知道檢調基於偵查不公開，我們的署長也是逼於無奈不能講太多，但是起碼可以公開的，由署長跟社會大眾來做說明，好不好？"],["周副主任委員美伍：謝謝委員給我們這個機會說明。我想剛剛透過艦隊分署這個影片，大家可以了解，那就是我們平常如果要登檢，那就是我們平常在做的事情。往往在這個過程當中受傷的是我們的同仁，我們的風險比他們還大，各位不知道剛剛有沒有看到，他們的漁船刻意的從兩舷戳出這個鋼管，而且那個漁船都有做好的洞，它看到我們海巡來的時候，它把它所有的鋼管戳出去，讓我們的船要接近的時候會登不上他的船，為什麼？它有伸出那個鋼管，先把我們撞破，它有一段距離，剛剛各位可以看出來，最明顯的一個……"],["主席：署長，對不起，稍微要說明一下，這個影片是你們這一次的影片嗎？是這次的撞船影片嗎？請你說明一下好不好？"],["周副主任委員美伍：不是，我特別說明，我們剛剛特別講的就是在登檢的過程中，我們過去登檢的經驗當中，就是像我們剛剛影片所播的一個狀況。另外我講個最明顯的案例，就今年的中秋節，在我們臺北港外大概10到12海浬左右，陸方的一艘漁船也是在這邊越界捕魚，在我們的領海之內。我們的海巡艇也是接到命令之後過去驅離，但它完全不接受驅離，就一直對著我們來做碰撞，在這個碰撞過程中，我們海巡艇10088這個編號我還記得，因為那天是中秋節，我正好也在署裡面，那天整個的過程同仁在這個接近的過程當中是非常的危險。","像這樣子的案例，陸方也都非常的能夠遵照我們過往處理的經驗，它也是透由律師，然後來跟我們談賠償，因為它違法在先，所以它也同意，對於我們的維修費、對於我們的這些東西，都能夠有賠償。","我特別舉這個案例就是說我們兩岸過去在這樣子的一個案例當中，是很多很多的案例，我們之間有一個執法的默契，那我們在各個事項或者事證釐清之後，雙方都會做出應有的處置，我們一直都是本著這個原則。所以我要一再的強調，我們跟對方的海巡也好，海洋執法支隊也好，都一直保持這樣子的默契，特別是在金門海域的執法，我特別跟各位報告，去年一年的協同執法的頻率就高達49次。這裡面，我們驅離是居多的，他們的扣留是居多的，它在它的海域發現三無船舶之後，就立刻扣留，其實我這邊都有數據，因為每次雙方都會做一個報告，這次我們協同執法，我扣留了幾艘船、我取締了些什麼東西，我把一些漁網重新給它拉起來或怎麼樣，消除了多少違規的漁網，因為這些漁網都會影響到金廈水域的航行安全，廈門港的進出是非常頻繁的，所以中國大陸也希望我們能夠在這個水域一直維持正常的運作。在航道上這些非法的活動或者布網或者是放蟹籠這些東西，都是不被允許的，不僅僅是我們海巡要做這些工作，地方的執法支隊也在做這些事情，我們的金門縣政府也有委託，它也有專門的船隻出去收這些漁網或什麼，它在執行的時候也都會請海巡來配合。","所以在這樣子一個執法的氛圍之下，我們是希望能夠保持一個好的漁場的環境，讓雙方的漁民都能夠合法的在這邊進行他的捕撈作業，我想這是我們一直以來跟對方一直保有的互動方式，這是我要特別先說明的。那這一次的三無船舶在進入到我方的禁限制水域，所謂禁限制水域就是它已經進入到我們的領水，那進入到這邊之後，我們海巡隊員很明顯的就可以看出來，因為它沒有船名，因為我們海巡同仁在這方面的執法已經有幾十年的經驗，他第一時間就可以判定它是一個無船名、就是三無的船舶，所以他馬上就廣播驅離警告。我們一開始的動作還是希望它能夠儘速離開，但是後續它產生一些高速脫離的現象，我們才會採取後續這樣子準備登檢的動作，在準備登檢的過程當中，就會發生像剛剛我們影片所發生那種，因為互相……一個是逃跑，一個是追逐，這樣子互動的狀況之下，難免會有一些擦碰，我想這個一定會有，所以我們在這一次的檢調對於兩艘船查扣之後，請這些相關的單位來做查驗的時候，兩方有明顯的擦撞，各留油漆，因為如果我們擦撞到它，它的油漆會到我們的這個船體上，我們的油漆會到它的船體上，而且我們這都已經送到台北刑事警察局，它都已經幫我們驗了，都已經查驗完畢了，這個地方明顯的有兩個油漆互擦、擦撞的一個地方，據我所知有兩處，當然以檢調為準，就是他們的左船尾跟我們的右船首，這些都是在調查的過程當中，整個的事件的過程跟證物，跟所有我們勘驗的結果，這些資料我們都請相關的公證單位來做第三方的公證，這個公證可能要由檢調去請，我們不能請，因為我們是當事人，因為我們是一個甲方跟一個乙方。","所以今天有一位委員問到為什麼是海巡署的副署長在負責來談論這件事情。因為我們是甲方，他們是乙方，我們是當事人、我們是當事人，我們必須要把這個事件做一個善意的解決，所以我們不得不出面，畢竟是我們的船隻跟陸方在海上因為追逐、因為我們執法造成兩個陸人的一個溺斃事件，所以我們當然要用這樣負責任的態度來處理。"],["吳委員琪銘：好的，謝謝，謝謝我們海巡署的署長，各位媒體聽到我們海巡署署長所描述的整個過程，我們現在應該都要相信我們的檢方、檢調的調查，整個調查出來我們再來做評論，應該這樣比較合理，也謝謝我們的召委，謝謝我們同仁，感謝各位。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘召委的質詢，也謝謝署長的回應。繼續我們請陳雪生委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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市長我們都針對議題今天我看了很多的同仁大家都執行的爭議就是我們的珊瑚船舶的問題那整個珊瑚船舶其實我們都知道它是越線然後整個以我們的常理來判斷"},{"start":35.509,"end":35.529,"text":"吳琪銘議員"},{"start":59.212,"end":86.091,"text":"只是一個那個漆有漆的那個痕跡那整個事情都是一個很單純那現在我看到我們今天的同仁都變成有點政治化所以在整個過程我也希望透過影片讓我們社會大眾還有我們的媒體我們的先進大家來知道整個事件的來龍去脈因為為什麼我會找署長上來因為你是最前線"},{"start":87.112,"end":87.152,"text":"吳琪銘議員吳琪銘議員"},{"start":114.687,"end":116.849,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":143.729,"end":143.91,"text":"主席"},{"start":240.837,"end":240.857,"text":"吳琪銘"},{"start":253.562,"end":280.511,"text":"三股船舶第一他們的船隻本身就有問題這是一個非法的船隻那又越過我們的中線就比如說我們已經超線過來然後我們的基於我們的維護我們的國家主權在執行所以我們要體諒到我們的海巡署我們的同仁大家的辛苦所以"},{"start":281.092,"end":308.85,"text":"今天我們就針對這個問題我也請海巡署署長來將整個來做說明因為我們的基於說偵查檢調偵查不公開偵查不公開的情形我們還是要知道說檢調基於偵查不公開我們的署長也是必以無奈不能講太多但是起碼可以公開的我署長來跟社會大眾來做說明好不好是"},{"start":309.571,"end":328.509,"text":"謝謝委員給我們這個機會說明那我想剛剛透過艦隊分屬這個影片大家可以了解那個就是我們平常如果要登檢那就是我們平常在做的事情那往往在這個過程當中受傷的是我們的同仁"},{"start":329.15,"end":350.451,"text":"我們的風險比他們還大各位我不知道剛剛有沒有看到他們的漁船刻意地從兩旋戳出這個鋼管而且那個漁船都有做好的洞他要看到我們海軍來的時候他把他所有的鋼管戳出去讓這個船要跟我們我們的船要接近的時候"},{"start":351.232,"end":368.866,"text":"你登不上他的船,為什麼?他有伸出那個鋼管,先把我們撞破,他有一段距離,剛剛各位可以看出來。吳琪,請張偉要說明一下,這個影片是你們這一次的影片嗎?這次的撞船影片嗎?對,請你說明一下好不好?我們剛剛特別講的就是,我們在登檢的過程中,我們過去登檢的經驗當中,就是我們剛剛影片所播的一個狀況。另外就是我們"},{"start":380.856,"end":399.174,"text":"我講個最明顯的案例就今年的這個中秋節在我們台北港外大概10到12海里左右那麼陸方的一艘漁船也是在這邊滅戒捕魚在我們的領海之內那我們的海巡艇也是接到"},{"start":399.915,"end":428.674,"text":"我們的命令之後過去驅離但他完全不接受驅離就一直對著我們來做碰撞那這個碰撞過程我們整個海巡艇18810088這個編號我還記得因為那天是中秋節那天我正好也是在署裡面整個的過程我們的處理也是那天我們的同仁在這個接近的過程當中是非常的危險"},{"start":429.494,"end":442.363,"text":"那像這樣子的案例路芳也都是非常的能夠遵照我們過往處理的經驗他也是透由律師然後來跟我們來談賠償因為他違法在先"},{"start":446.287,"end":459.888,"text":"他也同意對於我們的修費、對於我們的這些東西都能夠有賠償我要特別舉這個案例就是說我們兩岸過去在這樣子的一個案例當中是很多很多的案例"},{"start":460.529,"end":460.549,"text":"吳琪銘議員"},{"start":480.25,"end":494.567,"text":"海洋執法支隊也好我們都一直保持有這樣子的一個默契那特別是在金門海域的執法我特別跟各位報告那去年一年的協同執法的頻率就高達49次"},{"start":496.169,"end":496.189,"text":"吳琪銘"},{"start":521.544,"end":521.584,"text":"主席"},{"start":540.659,"end":568.837,"text":"在航道上這些非法的這些活動或者布網或者是放這些蟹籠這些東西都是不被允許的不僅僅是我們海巡要做這些工作他地方的執法支隊也在做這些事情我們的金門縣政府也委託他也有專門的船隻出去收這些漁網或什麼那他在執行的時候也都會請海巡來配合"},{"start":569.659,"end":571.757,"text":"所以在這樣子一個執法的氛圍之下"},{"start":573.018,"end":601.928,"text":"我們是希望能夠保持一個好的一個漁場的環境讓雙方的漁民都能夠合法的在這邊進行他的捕撈作業我想這是我們一直以來跟對方一直保有的一個互動的一個方式那這是我要特別先說明的那這一次的三無船舶在進入到我方的禁縣制水域所謂禁縣制水域就是它已經進入到我們的領水"},{"start":604.132,"end":626.266,"text":"進入到這邊之後我們的海巡隊隊員很明顯的就可以看出來因為他沒有船名因為我們海巡的同仁在這方面的執法已經有幾十年的經驗他第一時間就可以判定他是一個無船名就是三無的船舶所以他馬上就廣播驅離警告我們一開始的動作還是希望他能夠儘速離開"},{"start":627.927,"end":627.947,"text":"吳琪銘議員"},{"start":643.302,"end":643.322,"text":"吳琪銘議員"},{"start":665.31,"end":692.968,"text":"明顯的有兩方擦創各流油漆的因為如果我們擦創到它它的油漆會到我們的船體上我們的油漆會到它的船體上而且我們這都已經送到臺北刑事警察局已經幫我們都驗都已經查驗完畢了那這個地方明顯的有兩個油漆互擦的一個這個擦創的一個地方"},{"start":694.231,"end":695.093,"text":"據我所知當然檢調為準"},{"start":698.1,"end":725.635,"text":"有兩處就是他們的左船尾跟我們的右船首那這些都是在調查的過程當中這些整個的事件的過程跟證物跟所有的我們開驗的結果這些資料我們都請相關的公證單位來做第三方的公證那這個公證可能要由檢調他去請我們不能請因為我們是當事人"},{"start":726.255,"end":726.275,"text":"吳琪銘"},{"start":744.275,"end":744.315,"text":"好的"},{"start":767.787,"end":782.478,"text":"謝謝我們的海巡署我們的署長我們各位媒體聽到我們海巡署的署長所描述整個過程中應該我們現在都要相信我們的檢方檢調的調查整個調查出來我們再來做評論應該這樣是比較合理那謝謝我們的召委謝謝我們的同仁感謝各位謝謝吳琪銘召委的質詢"}]}},{"id":"149294","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149294","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddc13750f94e8aa37e4df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a6a10fc3e52cb29d075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:49:49 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13:02:56","影片長度":"00:13:07","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":787,"end_time":"2024-03-04T13:02:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T12:49:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1266,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（12時49分）謝謝主席！請邀請我們海基會還有陸委會主委。"],["主席：請陸委會主委，我們今天並沒有邀請海基會。"],["麥委員玉珍：是海委會，對不起！"],["主席：請海委會管主委。謝謝！"],["麥委員玉珍：我首先要說的是我看了專案報告，目前已經交由檢調處理，執法的程序還有相關的細節，我們都尊重司法的調查，但是我想要請教主委對於這件事情的看法是什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這是海巡依法行政執法，我們絕對沒有過失，對這個在過程之中發生的不幸事件，我們本於大公無私，把所有的資料都交給檢察官，讓他們不偏不倚的來還原真相。但是在這個過程之中，海巡的執法、依法行政，難免在登檢的過程當中會有一個持續的碰觸的過程，但是我們知道這一艘船本身的條件以及這艘船這位操船人身分在在都顯示有問題，在這個時候我們再把這些事情說出來實在是不得已，可是一定要說，這是一艘三無船，然後違法到我們的海域，依法我們必須取締，而且取締的過程我們是一定會經過登檢跟扣留這樣的一個執法過程，對方在這麼小的船舶上配附這麼重的、這麼快速的兩艘舷外機，影響到船舶本身的安全，而且船長自己本身又是一個沒有證照、沒有豐富駕船經驗的人，在這樣的狀況之下發生這件事情，我們真的很希望大家能冷靜的看待事情的全貌，支持海巡弟兄，捍衛我們執法的正當性。"],["麥委員玉珍：金門距離廈門最近距離只有2,310米，這意味著兩邊的禁限制水域是高度重疊的，也就是這樣的狀況未來還是有可能會發生。再來，我國初日號遊艇被中國水警登船臨檢這件事情，就是意味著衝突升級了，不然他們為什麼還要在那麼敏感的時候特別來到我們的船上進行臨檢？請問海巡署，一旦類似的衝突再度發生，海委會有何應對策略？我們如何確保臺灣漁民的安全？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們跟廈門的距離雖然很近，但是禁限制水域是從1992年以來雙方執法一個很重要的依循，所以不是因為說兩邊很近一定就會不斷地發生類案，這是第一點。第二點，對這樣的一個執法過程，其實我也三令五申，特別請艦隊分署要告訴我們的同仁，落實所有的勤務，並應該要有精進的作為，我們在執法時最優先的一定要顧及自己跟他船的安全，這個是我們執法所必須的，而我們的海巡也都謹守這樣一個執法應該要有的態度來執法，這次發生意外是一個非常個別的單一的事件，未來我們會盡一切的努力精進作為，以避免這樣的案件再度發生。我們不會看到這樣的事件不斷地發生，事實上也不是。"],["麥委員玉珍：請問我們遇到中國海警時的措施是什麼？會去驅離還是會主動開火？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，絕對是不可能主動開火的，這一切的SOP都一樣，在沒有進入禁限制水域的時候，我們有未進入禁限制水域時的應處，如果是進入限制水域，這個其實也是在非常緊張的時候才會發生的一種政治氛圍之下的作為，至於說海警船進入禁止水域，到目前為止，即使是這一次，也都還完全沒有，進入禁止水域的不是海警船而是其他的公務船舶，所以其實兩岸都很希望能夠維持在海域上面既有協同執法又在救生救難上面有聯合的作為，這一個善的橋樑是存在的，我們很希望能夠讓這件事情趕快落幕，在人道的撫慰上面能夠趕快落實跟完成，對此我們是有非常非常大的誠意，很希望能夠趕快恢復金廈海域過去兩岸關係的原貌，恢復我們協同執法、聯合救生救難等等共同搭建起來的善的橋樑，我們希望能夠回到那樣的一個原貌之中，希望能夠趕快趕快讓這個事情不要再被綁在很多的政治考量之中，那個是沒有必要的。能夠擱置政治，還原到人道的撫慰，才是我們最衷心、最大的期待，也是最大的呼籲。"],["麥委員玉珍：好。請問海委會還有陸委會知道菲律賓在南海的衝突這件事情嗎？我認為我們遇到問題就要解決問題，而不是在喊口號、在說明，大陸就像我們家隔壁的壞鄰居，所以我們也要想辦法去解決它，不然最後最可憐的還是我們的民眾。菲律賓可以在最近半年跟美國展開聯合軍事演習，我們目前的衝突情勢已經升級了，既然我們還要採那麼強硬的立場，請問我們有做好跟他們硬來的準備嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，我們沒有採所謂強硬的立場，我們絕對是堅持執法的過程當中不升高政治衝突的，我們從來不挑釁、不升高政治衝突，從頭到尾，從過去到現在到未來，這都是我們唯一的態度。那灰色地帶……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們有機會找美國跟我們三天一起聯合巡邏嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，臺美的海巡彼此之間有合作的MOU，但是合作的MOU的內容分成很多項目，至於說我們有一些聯合的合作的項目，因為本於外交上面的考量，恐怕不便在這裡做公開的說明跟報告。"],["麥委員玉珍：我相信臺灣的民眾不會在乎剛才很多委員在問的專報開的是什麼名字，我們全國人民在乎的是情勢升級會不會影響我們的生活，甚至是否會兩岸開戰，因為有念過歷史的人都知道很多戰爭都是因為擦槍走火導致，這個才是我們臺灣人民關心的重點，而不是沒有意義的鑽牛角尖，一直在講一些問題或者名稱，我們金門的民眾，每次只要兩岸有衝突，他們就如同海嘯一樣排在第一名，所以我們相信臺灣沒有人包含主委希望有這樣子的衝突……"],["管主任委員碧玲：金門的鄉親非常支持海巡執法。"],["麥委員玉珍：大家都渴望和平，有穩定生活的環境，所以我想請問主委的重點就是在行政部門而言，如何平衡在積極捍衛領土與海域權利的同時又能確保金門甚至我們所有臺灣人民有不必害怕打仗擔憂的恐慌？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們絕對是不挑釁、不升高政治的衝突，以這次發生的事故來講，我們第一時間就希望能夠回歸到過去已經有的案例處理方式，這是一個個案的執法事件，不要把它用來升高為政治跟政治之間做連結，那做連結的不是我方，升高政治的不是我方。"],["麥委員玉珍：我看到的、在講的都是這些問題，由於告訴的時間還短暫的緣故，所以問的問題都是用陳述的方式，我希望未來本署可以精進並加強訓練，現謹針對如何精進加強訓練提出幾點希望，第一個就是海巡力，還有對兩岸關係的影響力，以及對人民福祉影響力的書面資料可以給我們一份嗎？因為都是用講的我覺得不夠詳細。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的精進作為會給你一個報告，是。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，OK。還有關於溝通的機制，請問我們這一次對於兩岸溝通的管道是什麼？有哪一些官方單位參與這次的溝通？"],["邱主任委員太三：我先跟委員報告，其實兩岸本來三十幾年來就有基本的溝通跟協商的機制，只是對方要不要用而已。縱使對方可能礙於政治上的一些框架或考量，但是現實上涉及到人民權利義務的事項，他們最後還是會……或是說我們雙方都會找到一個適當的方式。以過去這幾年來講，大陸人民在臺灣發生各種的意外事故，不管有無過失或是什麼等等的，大概有9個案例已經協商處理過。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，但是那是單位，沒有政府單位共同介入……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們人民在大陸也有大概3個案件。我想這個都是會由政府單位，或者是政府授權的單位，就像您剛剛有提到的海基會……"],["麥委員玉珍：沒有政府之間的溝通管道。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，溝通管道，我剛剛不是講嘛，溝通管道一直都有，三十幾年來雙方簽了很多的協議，也有很多的溝通管道的機制。"],["麥委員玉珍：不是雙方，就是兩邊政治溝通的管道，只是通過單位、各個單位來溝通……"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上政治議題的溝通，縱使是朝野不同的政黨……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以才會造成已經半個月了，到現在還沒有溝通完整，對不對？現在有delay……"],["邱主任委員太三：委員要分兩件事，你剛剛問的是，第一個政治的溝通，基本上……"],["麥委員玉珍：這件事情。"],["邱主任委員太三：這件事情是沒有政治的問題……"],["麥委員玉珍：對，這是沒有個案溝通……"],["邱主任委員太三：因為它就純粹一個個案執行的問題，它就純粹一個執法個案的問題，過去發生過很多的案例，其實都有一個協商處理的機制。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，所以這樣的話我們希望就是要有效的溝通，希望有效的溝通。"],["邱主任委員太三：我們當然是希望有效的溝通。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，這樣的話，我們才能發揮我們溝通的管道。所以我相信就是海委會，只要對我們臺灣的人民，可以保證說以後不要發生這樣的事情，可以嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們會精進一切的作為，做最大的努力，讓未來避免再度發生這些案件。但是這一次的案件，委員您也知道，對方船舶的狀態，我想今天已經說得很清楚了。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝我們麥玉珍委員的質詢，也謝謝兩位主委的回應，謝謝。","繼續我們請吳琪銘召委來做質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","張啓楷"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案：\n翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130501_00018"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.8072187500000001,"end":1.8703437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.0559687500000003,"end":3.8953437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.45221875,"end":7.050968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.995968750000001,"end":15.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.168468750000002,"end":11.607218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.46784375,"end":15.404093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.57596875,"end":29.832218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.000968750000002,"end":36.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.227843750000005,"end":42.471593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.14659375,"end":131.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.28034375000001,"end":139.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.90784375,"end":155.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.98971875,"end":160.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.06909375,"end":162.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.97596875000002,"end":183.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.79971875,"end":203.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.91471875000002,"end":209.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.43284375000002,"end":238.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.08221875,"end":248.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.44346875000002,"end":254.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.92784375000002,"end":259.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.54284375000003,"end":266.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.87534375,"end":345.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.01909375,"end":348.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.12846875,"end":364.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.35784375000003,"end":368.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.27284375000005,"end":372.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.08659375,"end":393.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.57284375,"end":395.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.20534375,"end":403.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.77784375000005,"end":417.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.97409375,"end":439.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.70971875000004,"end":442.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.81409375000004,"end":467.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.06346875,"end":493.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.23221875,"end":529.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.0759687500001,"end":522.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.08846875,"end":524.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.28159375,"end":534.4453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.05284375,"end":553.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.2397187500001,"end":576.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.4978437500001,"end":579.8897187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.56534375,"end":590.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.8584687499999,"end":624.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.17034375,"end":621.2334687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.3303437500001,"end":626.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.88659375,"end":627.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.32096875,"end":633.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.24409375,"end":642.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.5972187500001,"end":645.5503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":646.14096875,"end":656.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":656.5190937500001,"end":656.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":657.0590937500001,"end":666.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":666.7790937500001,"end":676.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":676.7859687499999,"end":681.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":681.6459687500001,"end":690.0834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.42159375,"end":694.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":690.57284375,"end":690.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":690.9440937500001,"end":697.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.4622187500001,"end":699.1453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.74034375,"end":707.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.6515937500001,"end":701.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.2959687500002,"end":712.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.94909375,"end":715.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.48471875,"end":722.1628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":718.8215937500001,"end":720.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","sta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這樣的一個執法的過程我們的執法其實我也三令五申我特別請艦隊分署要告訴我們的同仁落實所有的勤務我們也應該有精進的作為我們的執法一定要最優先是顧及自己跟他船的安全這個是我們執法所必須的而我們的海巡也都謹守這樣的一個執法應該要有的態度來執法"},{"start":230.249,"end":256.134,"text":"那這次發生意外是一個非常個別的單一的事件我們未來會盡一切的努力會盡一切的努力的精進作為來避免這樣的案件再度發生我們不會看到說這樣的事件要不斷的發生事實上也不是是但是我們遇到中國的海警的措施是什麼會去距離嗎還是說我們會主動開火嗎"},{"start":261.584,"end":286.173,"text":"委員 絕對不可能是主動開火的這一切的SOP都一樣在沒有進入禁限制水域的時候我們有未進入禁限制水域時候我們的應處那麼如果是進入限制水域這個其實也是在非常緊張的時候才會發生的一種政治氛圍之下的作為"},{"start":287.573,"end":311.273,"text":"至於說海警船進入禁止水域目前為止即使是這一次也都還完全沒有那進入禁止水域不是海警船是其他的公務船舶所以其實兩岸我們都很希望能夠維持我們兩岸在海域上面我們既是有協同執法我們又是有救生救難上面的"},{"start":311.633,"end":311.673,"text":"麥玉珍"},{"start":330.822,"end":333.985,"text":"我們希望能夠趕快趕快讓這個事情不要再被綁在很多的政治的考量之中那個是沒有必要的"},{"start":355.902,"end":356.663,"text":"主席﹚麥玉珍"},{"start":366.688,"end":380.035,"text":"這件事情海委會還有陸委會知道嗎菲律賓的在海外的南海的衝突我認為就是我們遇到問題就是解決問題而且不是在喊口號在說明大陸就像我們家的隔壁鄰居的壞鄰居所以我們也要想辦法說如何去解決他不然最後"},{"start":393.642,"end":402.349,"text":"最可憐的還是我們的民眾。菲律賓他們也可以在最近半年跟美國展開的聯合軍事的演習。我們目前的衝突已經,情勢已經升級了。我們既然還要採那麼強硬的立場,我們有做好跟他們硬來的準備嗎?"},{"start":418.381,"end":435.936,"text":"報告委員,我們沒有採所謂強硬的立場,我們絕對是堅持執法的過程當中,我們是不勝高政治衝突的,這從來我們不挑釁不勝高政治衝突,從頭到尾,過去到現在到未來,都是我們唯一的態度,這一點邀請委員。"},{"start":443.07,"end":466.716,"text":"跟委員報告臺美的海巡彼此之間我們有合作的MOU但是合作的MOU的內容它分成很多的項目至於說我們有一些聯合的合作的項目因為本於外交上面的考量恐怕我們是不便在這裡做公開的說明跟報告"},{"start":467.416,"end":477.223,"text":"我相信就是臺灣的民眾不會在乎剛才大家就是很多的委員在問的就是說專報開的什麼名字我們全國的人民在乎的就是情勢升級會不會影響我們的生活還有甚至到說兩岸開戰因為有念過歷史的人都知道很多戰爭都是因為"},{"start":500.739,"end":508.304,"text":"這個才是我們台灣的人民的關心而不是就是有意義的就是鑽牛九尖一直在講一些的問題或者名稱"},{"start":509.406,"end":522.272,"text":"所以這也就是我們金門的民眾每次就是要兩岸衝突他們都是像海嘯一樣排第一名所以我們相信台灣沒有人包括這位就是希望這樣子的衝突"},{"start":526.714,"end":552.59,"text":"大家就是渴望和平就是穩定生活的環境因為在我就想問委員的重點就是說在行政部門如何平衡積極捍衛領土與海城的權利同時確保金門甚至我們所有台灣人民不必要的就是害怕就是打戰擔憂的恐慌"},{"start":554.464,"end":575.739,"text":"跟委員報告我們絕對是不挑釁然後不升高政治的衝突以這一次發生的事故來講我們第一時間就希望就是說能夠回歸到我們過去已經有的案例的處理這是一個個案的執法事件不要把它用來升高為政治跟政治之間做連結做連結的不是我方"},{"start":577.159,"end":604.755,"text":"所以說因為我看到就是說就是在講的都是這些問題所以我是希望就是說我們因為告訴的時間還有短暫的因素所以問的問題都是用陳述的我希望就是說未來本署就是可以就是將於就是精進還有就是加強的訓練所以關於就是精進加強的訓練的"},{"start":606.116,"end":606.537,"text":"我們的經營作為會給委員一個報告"},{"start":629.082,"end":655.794,"text":"還有就是說關於就是說溝通的機制因為請問我們這次的對於兩岸溝通的管道是什麼有哪一些官方單位參與這次的溝通我先跟委員報告其實兩岸本來30幾年來就有基本的溝通跟協商的機制只是對方要不要用而已"},{"start":658.19,"end":680.895,"text":"但是正是對方可能礙於政治上的一些框架或考量但是現實上涉及到人民權利義務的這個事項他們最後還是會或是說我們雙方都會找到一個適當的方式去那以過去這幾年來講大陸人民在台灣發生各種的意外事故的"},{"start":681.995,"end":688.28,"text":"不管有無過失或是甚麼等等的大概有9個案例已經協商處理過我們人力在大陸也有大概3個案件我想這個都是會由政府單位或是政府授權的單位就像您剛剛有提到的海基運"},{"start":700.23,"end":721.549,"text":"對,溝通管道我剛剛不是講了嗎?溝通管道一直都有,三十幾年來雙方簽了很多的協議,也有很多的溝通管道的機制。不是相反就是兩邊政治溝通的管道,就是通過單位,各個單位一起溝通。基本上政治的議題的溝通,縱使是朝野政...所以才會達成說已經半個月了,到現在還沒有溝通完整。"},{"start":725.291,"end":736.136,"text":"要分兩件事,你剛剛問的是第一個政治的溝通,基本上這件事情是沒有政治的問題,因為它就存在一個個案執法個案的問題過去發生過了很多的案例,其實都有一個協商機制希望有效的溝通"},{"start":749.882,"end":752.764,"text":"我們會盡盡一切的作為做最大的努力讓未來避免再度發生這些案件"},{"start":777.403,"end":783.927,"text":"但是這次的案件委員您也知道對方船舶的狀態我想今天已經說得很清楚了"}]}},{"id":"149293","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149293","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd252b2622c16d29804df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a68259a7d79b7de1fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"12:37:13 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Kacaw","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","張啓楷"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案：\n翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130501_00018"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":3.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.57471875,"end":4.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.24471875,"end":10.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.45971875,"end":16.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.04096875,"end":25.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.714718750000003,"end":28.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.617218750000003,"end":29.882843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.08534375,"end":32.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.81909375,"end":35.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.04221875,"end":38.134718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.674718750000004,"end":52.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.54596875,"end":57.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.01346875,"end":58.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.789718750000006,"end":73.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.07846875,"end":75.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.88409375,"end":77.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.74034375000001,"end":92.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.57784375,"end":91.64534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.05034375000001,"end":100.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.94784375,"end":103.27221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.97284375000001,"end":104.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.47034375000001,"end":108.25034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.56721875000001,"end":108.06471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.38534375,"end":113.58284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.02159375000001,"end":120.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.40034375,"end":122.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.06659375000001,"end":124.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.58096875000001,"end":127.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.11221875,"end":133.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.88784375,"end":139.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.64721875,"end":134.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.21159375000002,"end":144.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.29096875000002,"end":146.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.57346875000002,"end":146.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.96159375000002,"end":151.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.53471875,"end":156.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.51284375,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.63471875000002,"end":160.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.52909375000002,"end":161.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.15346875,"end":163.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.76909375,"end":166.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.46909375,"end":169.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.92846875,"end":172.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.10096875000002,"end":192.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.43284375000002,"end":183.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.42721875,"end":201.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.00784375,"end":204.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.89346875,"end":205.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.34471875000003,"end":207.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.69471875000002,"end":210.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.28909375,"end":211.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.35221875000002,"end":219.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.50721875000002,"end":222.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.87409375000001,"end":229.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.38346875000002,"end":231.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.81784375,"end":237.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.05284375000002,"end":242.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.45721875,"end":245.56221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":245.61284375000002,"end":245.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.91659375,"end":245.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.91659375,"end":248.53221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":245.93346875,"end":245.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.65034375000002,"end":268.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.85284375,"end":248.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.95409375000003,"end":249.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.46034375000002,"end":249.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":261.77909375,"end":262.16721875},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這已經是應該我很年輕的時候了年輕的時候跟中國兩個移民沒有關係吧所以這是一個我認為這是認知作戰的一部分這整件事情發生以來一直把我沒有講的話塞進來我的嘴巴然後把我建構成好像一個妖魔鬼怪一樣冷血 是不是就像我今天有講的連一個三大暴之一的國內的大暴的社論都可以說"},{"start":437.766,"end":437.906,"text":"李柏毅議員"},{"start":465.469,"end":481.597,"text":"管主會第一個你力挺海巡署要不要用撞船這個報告我給你肯定之外那目前所有的這一個包含認知作戰把你塑造成希望把你塑造成中國漁民該死這種"},{"start":483.078,"end":485.721,"text":"我們一路以來我一方面支持跟堅持捍衛我們海巡依法行政的執法之外"},{"start":504.622,"end":533.032,"text":"對於家屬的撫慰．對於亡者的安寧．我是盡所有的力量．我們舉辦法會．我們安置靈堂．我們的同仁去拜飯持續到今天．完全沒有停聚好 謝謝管委員對不起管主委那我這樣請這個陸委會邱主委在管主委你請回座面對海委會他現在站在第一線海巡署站在第一線"},{"start":533.832,"end":559.742,"text":"面對對岸或者是這種認知作戰要拉高兩岸的緊張程度面對這種認知作戰要讓外界認為台灣主戰要讓外界認為台灣的海委會主委很殘忍對於我們漁民越界他們怎麼樣那對於這種認知作戰我想陸委會是不是也應該跟相關的單位做一些比較全面性的討論確實"},{"start":561.563,"end":579.703,"text":"片面的去改變目前今夏海域的執法狀況的是誰?台灣的陸委會到底對這件事情的態度我們希望怎麼樣維持和平我們的這個取締的方式我們是和平的取締但是發生了意外我們還是要力挺我們海巡人員的這些說明"},{"start":581.144,"end":598.154,"text":"確實,感謝委員的質詢我大概有三個面向我想長期以來中國對我們的認知作戰我想不是只有在這個領域所有領域基本上都有在做認知作戰我想這個報紙或者是我們國人也大概都相當的了解第二個,我們必須要感謝今天這樣的一個質詢裡面"},{"start":600.655,"end":621.708,"text":"我們所有的朝野的立委都支持挺這個海巡署不過剛剛您所提到的這個認知作戰我想在這裡也跟各位委員跟所有的媒體希望大家小心因為國台辦他在第二天的記者會裡面他就用了所謂這是惡意撞船事件"},{"start":624.625,"end":627.225,"text":"海巡署暴力執法 要求賠償"},{"start":642.657,"end":669.134,"text":"一再的敘明說檢察官也用證人的身份對兩人製作兩份的詢問筆錄並且命他拒絕該兩人均表示對海巡隊的執法程序沒有意見我想在檢察官還在調查的過程中我希望國人不要對海巡署可以過度的苛責這種執法的過程確實很難避免一些所謂的意外的發生更何況我想"},{"start":672.383,"end":698.864,"text":"郭台鑌大概先前的記者會已經在做鋪陳他後續的這些認識作戰了所以這也是我們國人如果真的大家要挺海巡署我們真的在用語上可能稍微斟酌一下是我想謝謝主委這個也關係到後續的談判的相關的所有的要件那前提我剛剛也很高興聽到周署長那也很高興我們朝野共同來這個挺這個我們所謂海巡"},{"start":699.665,"end":723.42,"text":"那另外也就是我們海巡其實跟對岸都在打擊這一個三無船我們實在沒有必要去拉高這個緊張我們也都主張和平而且我們在執法的過程也都主張和平所以說在拉高緊張的人是誰在破壞和平現狀以及拉高緊張以及偵派這些海巡偵派這些海警"},{"start":723.78,"end":725.381,"text":"海監及行政船隻是誰?"}]}},{"id":"149292","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149292","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd10a81cd3eaf20dd64df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a61725417af849b0525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"12:22:59 - 12:36:48","影片長度":"00:13:49","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":829,"end_time":"2024-03-04T12:36:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T12:22:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1174,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（12時22分）好，謝謝主席。在此之前我要先表達一下，我非常支持管主委對名稱的更正，因為我也認為在真相還沒有釐清之前，不應該違背事實使用「撞船」這個名詞，所以我也希望接下來在司法調查結果還沒有出來之前，大家都應該尊重和用中性的字眼來訂定。","其實剛剛前面在程序發言時，有非常多的委員都提到過去沒有先例，但其實在立法院裡面這個先例不只有，而且非常多，只是以往都是互相尊重，立法部門和行政部門可以各自使用自己認為較偏中立、且符合自己立場的報告名稱，其實這個例子非常多，甚至也有國民黨的立委在國民黨執政時對他們的部長使用不同的名詞，所以我想這個應該是無庸置疑的，為什麼我那麼堅持這件事情呢？因為我認為維護自己的主權和治權應該是退無可退的，萬一這件事情我們在名詞上退讓了，是不是會造成接下來非常嚴重的影響？不管是接下來的談判結果，甚至無法釐清彼此的肇事責任，一旦此門一開，海巡署是不是就沒有辦法可以好好的執法？難道他們在執法的時候，要針對這些非法入侵、出海的漁船喊「歡迎光臨」嗎？所以我覺得這件事情必須要有一個嚴正的重申，並且應該要支持這樣的立場。","好，首先請管主委。"],["主席：有請管主任委員。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝主委。我想要問一下2月14日金門海域發生的事情，我想檢討是必要的，因為沒有人希望看到這樣不幸的事件發生，但是臺灣是法治的國家，我們做所有的事情都應該要執法有據，所以我想問一下，其實海巡署在執法基礎上不只行之有年，而且也白紙黑字寫得非常明確，其實兩岸人民關係條例第二十九條、第三十二條、第四十二條都有寫到「大陸船舶不得進入臺灣限制及禁止水域，如果未經許可進入，主管機關得逕行驅離或扣留其船舶」，過去兩岸是不是都在這樣的基礎和默契上執法？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，是，依照兩岸人民關係條例這2條和施行細則第四十二條的規定，這個依法有據，三無船舶我們都是依照登檢的程序和扣留的程序來處理。"],["黃委員捷：好，為什麼我會這樣說？因為我認為，這件事情還是要回到事實的基礎來討論，就是為什麼當初這件事情會發生？因為我們是在執法，我們是依照過去的慣例和法律來行使我們的職權。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對不起！其實中國的法律比我們更嚴格，中國抓到三無船舶一定是扣留，扣留後要拍賣的時候，他們是把拆解綁在拍賣中，你買去後一定要拆解，並不是買了之後還可以換，這個政策中國從1994年一路下來都是這樣。"],["黃委員捷：沒有錯。"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們對於三無船舶是一經查獲一律沒收，而且罰款是船價的2倍，而且要求最後一定要拆解，這個比我們更嚴格。"],["黃委員捷：所以中方在執法的過程中，他們不只是拆解、沒入，他們甚至是用更嚴格的方式在進行取締，所以我不太理解的是，在我們政府非常積極查緝的時候，我們用非常克制、理性的方式依照以往的方式在處理時，但卻還是有人要怪罪海巡署執法過當，請問這個有執法過當嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這一次所有的跡證都顯示我們的同仁並沒有執法過當，但是我一開始就覺得這件事情還是要不偏不倚、大公無私的來處理，目前我們自己知道我們並沒有執法過當，但是我們為了以昭公信，還是讓檢察官來還原真相。"],["黃委員捷：沒有錯。"],["管主任委員碧玲：這整個過程剛剛副主委已經把事實說得很清楚，我特別跟委員報告，這十幾天當中，我們沒有把這些案情說出來，是因為兩岸在談判桌上正在溝通，把案情說出來的時候責任很明顯會歸於一方，我們跟家屬在談人道的撫慰，可是談案情的話會說責任在對方，所以我們真的是非常非常的忍受所有社會給的壓力，今天到國會來了，真的是不得已，我們必須要把這些案情都揭露出來。"],["黃委員捷：我理解主委其實是非常善意且也很有誠意的，想要用最妥善然後釋出最大的善意來處理這件事情，但我還是要回到最源頭，因為大家都知道這艘船就是一艘三無船：沒有船名、沒有船舶證書也沒有船籍港的登記，過去我們對於三無船其實都是非常嚴加查緝的，因為三無船會造成我們合法船舶權益的損害，為保障我們合法漁民的權益，所以必須要支持合法、打擊非法，這是一貫的立場。對嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，尤其是對海上安全的影響也是很有疑慮的，無論如何，我們是於法有據的在依法行政，執行這一次的取締，是一定要有這樣一個執法的過程。"],["黃委員捷：所以在這件事情上面，其實以往都是兩岸在共同打擊犯罪，甚至是有一起針對這些非法的船隻做共同的處理，對嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：在兩岸協談執法的過程當中，我想我們海巡署經常也會收到對方表示希望我們共同對三無船加強取締的要求，我想這個在兩岸其實是我們的共識。"],["黃委員捷：沒有錯！我想針對這件事情其實以往都是這樣處理的，但是我想要問的是這個事件本身，請問這4位船員（其中包括1位船長）有沒有中國核發的漁民證書？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是沒有的。"],["黃委員捷：他們沒有漁民證書？"],["管主任委員碧玲：據我們目前所知是沒有的。"],["黃委員捷：請問這艘船有撈捕許可證跟漁業的船舶檢驗書嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我想以這樣的船隻，我們目前所知道的資訊是沒有的，但是是不是容許這個部分，我們的艦隊分署或偵防分署在這個部分可能會掌握比較更精確的資訊。"],["黃委員捷：我們就請分署長說明。"],["主席：有請分署長。謝謝！"],["廖分署長德成：委員好！關於這4名船員身分的部分，我們經過查證，包括生還的這兩名船員，的確是沒有所謂的證照，包括船舶也是一樣沒有所謂的船舶證書。"],["黃委員捷：所以他們不僅是三無船，而且可以說是無照駕駛，對嗎？所以現在很明顯他們已經是在非法的處境之上，而且是無照駕駛。那麼接下來要講的就是中國當時其實有宣稱說這4名船員是有停船受檢的，請問你們的檢查結果是這樣子嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個絕對不是事實，沒有。是在高速行駛的過程之中，剛剛署長也有講，因為從吊起來的船舶的最後狀態看到的是油門是全車。"],["黃委員捷：其實我剛剛在台下有聽到署長有把最後這個船隻的狀態講得更明確，它不止是全車前進，而且是右滿舵急轉彎高速前進的狀態，然後在這樣的狀態下再加上這艘船吃水很淺，船外又掛了兩個機組，是這樣子嗎？在一個非常、已經是極可能造成危險的狀態下，它高速前進了，那這是不是也可能是造成這一次翻覆事件的原因？這個當然不得而知，要由檢調來證實。"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為它是平底，所以當它以這樣的配重、比重的狀況，然後在右滿舵且高速開全車的狀況，我們艦隊分署長曾經做的報告是即使沒有碰撞都是非常容易自行翻覆的。但是案情是什麼，我們還是希望由檢調來釐清。"],["黃委員捷：好，我們以上是提供釐清一些事實，讓檢調做最後的判斷，到底肇事責任在誰，我相信肇事責任在誰已經很明確了。繼續我想要問的是其實今天有聽到談判到現在，據說中方的談判代表有要求我方的海巡人員到中國問訊，我想問是不是有這件事情？"],["管主任委員碧玲：整個談判上面的誠信跟氛圍還有整個過程，是不是請許副署長來說明？"],["黃委員捷：好。"],["許副署長靜芝：委員好！說是「談判」我想可能要使用「溝通」這個名詞來界定這樣的一個對話，在溝通的過程當中，對方是曾經有過這樣子的說明，但是經過這幾天的溝通以後，已經逐步的化解了。"],["黃委員捷：好，如果真有此事，代表我方的主權會受到極大的傷害和影響，希望我們要堅守我們的立場，在溝通的過程當中也必須要堅守我們執法的立場。","最後我想要講一下，就是在這段期間有非常多人都要求我們主委以及海巡署要道歉，對這件事情，我必須要求我們主委及海巡署絕對不能道歉，我們不僅是無從道歉，也沒有道理要道歉，希望在司法調查以及責任釐清出來之前，我們都不應該並且沒有任何依據要來道歉。好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對兩個人命的過亡，我們是高度的遺憾跟哀悼，也有很深的不捨之情，但是因為事涉責任尚未釐清，所以我們很誠懇的安排了兩次的道歉，一次是對於說沒有這樣一個蒐證的錄影，導致家屬十分的煎熬，因為他們沒有辦法更迅速的來瞭解案情，所以對於沒有蒐證錄影這部分，我們先由許副署長在金門召開的記者會上公開道歉，我也請我們的署長親自去上香以及撫慰家屬，上香時也有對亡者表達過歉意。"],["黃委員捷：我希望監控的部分、監視器的部分接下來當然一定要處理，但一定要保全我們自己，在人力的部分若有不足，是不是接下來也可以試著改善，以兩艘為主來編制，確保現場的人力都是OK的，然後才不會發生這種沒有辦法有人去錄影的狀態。","最後就是看到中國現在已經派出非常大噸位的執法船，兩千噸，請問我們目前執法船的噸位是不是無法跟他們對比？是不是我們未來也可以考慮再加強，派更大噸位的執法船常駐？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我想對這個部分我們有一定的SOP，也對局勢有一定的研判，是不是容我們從海巡的專業以及整個海域的安全還有對於兩岸關係的考量，在這些考量之下，容許我們海巡同仁、海巡署用最專業的SOP來應處這些事。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝主委！我覺得該改善的就一定要改善，但是必須要堅守三大原則，就是我們的漁權、治權跟主權一定都要堅守住。好嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們嚴正執法的立場絕對不會改變，即使是目前，我們仍然是依照我們應該要有的執法一直都在進行之中，保護漁民也是我們的天職，打擊犯罪我們都會非常非常努力。"],["主席：非常謝謝管主委的回應，也謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。","繼續請李柏毅委員質詢。在此宣告一下，等到召委即本席質詢結束後讓大家休息20分鐘用餐，好不好？謝謝！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","張啓楷"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案：\n翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130501_00018"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.08159375,"end":106.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.03096875,"end":109.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.85284375,"end":162.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.56159375,"end":115.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.89159375,"end":179.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.64846875,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.97034375,"end":199.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.02096875,"end":199.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.05471875,"end":234.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.29534375,"end":225.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.66659375,"end":225.73409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.73409375000003,"end":225.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.72846875000002,"end":246.82784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.47096875000003,"end":235.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.72409375,"end":236.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.41471875000002,"end":244.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.96284375000002,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.97284375000004,"end":289.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.73346875000004,"end":285.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.31471875,"end":323.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.03534375000004,"end":361.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.45159375000003,"end":332.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.97471875,"end":333.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.96596875,"end":377.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.81159375000004,"end":387.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.54846875000004,"end":402.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":402.02721875000003,"end":415.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":415.94909375000003,"end":417.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":417.63659375000003,"end":424.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.26096875,"end":418.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.96971875,"end":419.40846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":424.26846875,"end":428.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.97659375,"end":450.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":447.37034375,"end":447.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":449.42909375000005,"end":450.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.55096875000004,"end":454.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.12471875000006,"end":453.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.73596875000004,"end":469.57784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.10096875000005,"end":473.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":474.52221875000004,"end":486.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":486.90846875000005,"end":497.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.35409375,"end":502.45034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.15471875000003,"end":515.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":504.28971875,"end":504.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.0009687500001,"end":516.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":517.5534687500001,"end":533.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":534.6140937499999,"end":551.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.0803437500001,"end":549.5147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.53159375,"end":549.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.83096875,"end":551.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.1303437500001,"end":554.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.08784375,"end":557.6653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.0872187500001,"end":559.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.6228437500001,"end":564.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.7022187499999,"end":575.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":575.7722187500001,"end":599.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.43909375,"end":609.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.7790937500001,"end":613.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.94346875,"end":616.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.8797187499999,"end":618.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.19159375,"end":621.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.4990937499999,"end":625.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.50721875,"end":624.8615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.80659375,"end":630.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.3415937500001,"end":633.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.2990937500001,"end":638.4965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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謝謝謝謝主席那我先開始在在此之前我要先表達一下我非常支持管主委對於這個名稱的更正因為我也認為在真相還沒有釐清之前不應該違背事實使用撞船這個名詞"},{"start":17.782,"end":45.679,"text":"所以我也希望接下來大家在司法的調查結果還沒有出來之前應該要尊重更用中性的字眼來定定那其實剛剛前面在程序發言的時候有非常多的委員都提到說過去沒有先例但其實在立法院裡面這個先例不只有而且非常多那其實以往都是互相尊重立法部門跟行政部門可以各自使用自己而認為的比較偏離中性以及符合自己立場的"},{"start":46.92,"end":46.94,"text":"黃捷議員"},{"start":65.39,"end":93.687,"text":"我們維護自己的主權以及維護自己的治權應該是退無可退的萬一這件事情我們在這個名詞上面退了是不是會造成接下來非常嚴重的影響不管是說接下來談判的結果以及甚至到時候的造勢的責任彼此的釐清沒有辦法進行下去甚至是一旦此門一開是不是變成說我們海巡署沒有辦法再好好的執法在執法的時候難道針對這些非法"},{"start":94.107,"end":94.928,"text":"首先我們請管主委"},{"start":113.851,"end":130.202,"text":"好 謝謝主委 我想要問一下就是關於2月14號這個金門海域發生的事情我想檢討是必要的因為沒有人希望看到這樣不幸的事件發生但是因為台灣是一個法治國家我們所做所有的事情都應該要執法有據"},{"start":131.463,"end":149.818,"text":"我想問一下,因為其實我們海巡署在這個執法的基礎上不只行之有年而且也寫的白紙黑字非常明確就是兩岸條例裡面29條、32條、42條其實都有寫到說這個中國的漁船不得進入台灣限制及禁止的水域"},{"start":150.578,"end":179.147,"text":"那如果未經許可進入了我們海巡署就必須要依法來驅離甚至扣留及傳播我們是不是過去兩岸都是在這樣的基礎跟默契上來執法的報告委員是兩岸人民關係條例這兩條還有施行細則的第42條照規定這個是依法有據這種三無的傳播我們就是扣留的程序登檢的程序扣留的程序來處理"},{"start":180.027,"end":197.224,"text":"為什麼我會這樣說?因為我認為這件事情還是要回到事實的基礎來討論就當初為什麼這個事件會這樣發生是因為我們是在執法我們依照過去以往的慣例並且依據這個過去我們依據的這個法律來行使我們的職權"},{"start":199.406,"end":216.31,"text":"中國的法律比我們更嚴格。中國對於三輪船這樣的傳播,如果被扣留了以後,他們抓到是一定扣留。扣留的時候,他們在拍賣的時候是把拆解包裝綁在這個拍賣中,你買去的一定要拆解。"},{"start":216.71,"end":216.73,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":234.838,"end":260.396,"text":"所以其實中方在執法的過程當中他們不只是拆解末日乳甚至是他們用更嚴格的方式在進行取締嘛所以我不太理解的是在我們的政府非常積極的查緝的時候我們用非常克制的方式用非常理性的方式在照以往的慣例在處理但是還是有人要怪罪我們的海巡署說我們執法過當"},{"start":262.317,"end":289.015,"text":"請問有執法過當嗎?這一次我們所有的機證顯示我們的同源並沒有執法過當但是我一開始就覺得這個事情一定我們還是不偏不倚大功無失目前我們自己知道整個沒有執法過當的過程但是我們還是以招公信然後讓這個檢察官來還原真相但是整個的過程剛剛署長把事實說得很清楚我特別跟委員報告"},{"start":290.996,"end":316.966,"text":"這個十幾天當中我們沒有把這些案情說出來因為把這些案情說出來的時候兩岸在談判桌上正在溝通說出來的時候責任很明顯會歸於一方的時候這整個氣氛是我們跟家屬在談人道的撫慰可是我們談案情在說責任在對方所以我們真的是非常非常的忍受所有的社會給的這個壓力"},{"start":318.647,"end":340.948,"text":"那今天到國會來了真的是不得已我們必須要把這些案情都揭露出來我理解我理解主委其實是非常善意而且也很有誠意的想要用最妥善然後釋出最大的善意來處理這件事情但我還是要回到這源頭因為大家都知道這艘船就是一艘三無船沒有船名沒有船舶證書也沒有船級港的登記"},{"start":343.53,"end":360.463,"text":"那過去我們對於三無船其實是都是非常嚴加來查緝的因為三無船會造成我們合法船舶的權益的損害以及要保障我們合法漁民的權益所以必須要支持合法打擊非法這是一貫的立場對嗎?"},{"start":361.844,"end":377.507,"text":"是,尤其是其實對海上的安全的影響也是很有疑慮的那無論如何我們依法有據的在依法行政執行這次的去地是一定要有這樣的一個執法的過程"},{"start":377.847,"end":401.279,"text":"所以在這件事情上面其實以往都是兩岸在共同打擊犯罪甚至是我們有一起來針對這些非法的船隻都有共同的處理對嗎在兩岸協同執法的過程當中我想我們海巡署經常也會收到對方希望說我們共同的對三無船要來加強取締我想這個在兩岸其實是我們的共識"},{"start":402.259,"end":420.968,"text":"沒有錯 那我想針對這件事情其實以往都是這樣處理的但是我想要問的是這個事件本身請問這四位船員其中包括一位船長他們有沒有中國合法的漁民證書是沒有的他們沒有漁民證書嗎我們目前所知是沒有的"},{"start":421.368,"end":449.663,"text":"那請問一下這艘船他們是有勞補許可證跟漁業的船舶檢驗書的嗎?我想以這樣的串織我們目前所知道的資訊是沒有但是是不是容許這個部分如果要更精確的話我們艦隊分署或我們的偵防分署可能在這個部分會掌握比較更精確的資訊"},{"start":452.551,"end":454.292,"text":"有關於這四名船員的身份部分,我們經過查證,包括申緩者這兩名的船員講,他們的確是沒有所謂的證照。包括船舶也是一樣,沒有所謂的船舶證書。"},{"start":474.548,"end":475.609,"text":"這絕對不是事實 沒有在高速的行駛的過程之中"},{"start":504.335,"end":514.493,"text":"因為從掉起來船舶的最後狀態剛剛署長也有講了最後狀態看到的是油門是全車"},{"start":517.614,"end":533.36,"text":"其實剛剛署長也有講到在台下有聽他有把最後這個船隻的狀態講得更明確他不只是全車前進而且是又滿舵即轉彎高速前進的狀態然後在這樣的狀態下加上這台這艘船它吃水很淺"},{"start":534.68,"end":535.06,"text":"所以當他以這樣的配重的比重的狀況"},{"start":558.42,"end":558.44,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":575.816,"end":599.606,"text":"好 那當然我們以上是提供一些事實的釐清讓檢調做最後的判斷到底造勢責任在誰那我相信造勢責任在誰已經很明確了那我想要問一個其實今天有聽到說談判到現在中方的談判的代表聽據說有要求我方的海巡人員要到中國問訊我想問一下是不是有這件事情"},{"start":602.526,"end":609.189,"text":"我想整個談判上面的誠信跟氛圍還有整個過程是不是我們請許副署長來說好委員好那在談判的我想用談判可能溝通我們是不是使用溝通這一個名詞來界定這樣的一個對話那在談溝通的過程當中是曾經有過這樣子的"},{"start":631.517,"end":638.366,"text":"對方有過這樣子的說明但是經過這幾天的這個溝通以後已經逐步的已經化解了"},{"start":639.275,"end":662.077,"text":"好那如果真有此事代表說我方的主權會有極大的受害影響希望我們要堅守我們的立場那這個在溝通的過程當中也必須要堅守我們執法的立場好那最後我想要講一下就是最後其實在這段期間有非常多人都要求我們主委以及海巡署要道歉"},{"start":663.518,"end":684.071,"text":"這件事情其實我必須要要求我們主委及海巡署絕對不能道歉我們不僅是無從道歉也沒有道理要道歉希望在司法調查以及責任釐清出來之前我們都不應該並且沒有任何執法的依據要來道歉好不好"},{"start":685.352,"end":711.193,"text":"兩個人命的過往我們是高度的遺憾跟哀悼也有很深的不捨之情但是因為事涉責任尚未釐清所以我們很誠懇的安排了兩次的道歉一次是對於說沒有這樣的一個收證的錄影導致於家屬十分的煎熬因為他們沒有辦法更迅速的來了解案情"},{"start":711.793,"end":712.153,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":731.543,"end":759.857,"text":"我希望就是當然這個監控的部分監視器的部分接下來一定都要處理最後一定要保存我們自己那也希望說接下來我們在人力的部分如果有不足是不是接下來也可以試著改善是不是以兩艘為主來編制確保說現場的人力都是OK的然後都才不會有這種沒有辦法有人去錄影的狀態那最後就是有沒有看到說中國現在已經派出非常大噸位的執法船了2000噸"},{"start":761.778,"end":773.822,"text":"我們目前的這個噸位是不是跟他們沒有辦法對比是不是我們未來也可以考慮再加強派更大噸位的執法船來常駐呢?我想這個部分我們有一定的SOP那我們也有對局勢的一定的研判我想是不是容我們從海巡的專業"},{"start":786.105,"end":790.127,"text":"謝謝主委我覺得該改善的就一定要改善但是必須要堅守三大原則就是我們的漁權、治權跟主權這一定都要堅守住好嗎"},{"start":810.293,"end":810.433,"text":"黃捷委員"}]}},{"id":"149291","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149291","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd839c9fd7e3f17cc8baff13691fd5102bf8ba9b0039caa7a638579c4e31f1111f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：那我是這樣子想，從2012年頒布大專校院設置原資中心的補助要點之後，很多委員應該都很關心原資中心的發展，之所以關心，一定是接受到很多老師跟學生的陳情。我今天在業務報告有特別看到，在全民原教的推動有特別提到這樣的一句話，就是透過學生原資中心，然後由學校一級單位整合資源來推動全民原教，我覺得這句話講得很好，這個也是今天這個陳情案的問題所在，我要說的是，其實我在110年4月曾經質詢過原資中心的人力問題，當時教育部也很快在5月10日就給我一個報告，這個報告也獲得報導者的青睞，所以他們當時特別做了一個報導，就是原民學生的第二個家，他們提到原資中心長期以來為大家所詬病的，第一就是助理會變成血汗助理；另外，在學校的定位也是有被邊緣化這樣的困擾。很感謝，其實在109年已經補足原資中心一名專任人力，甚至在去年我們繼續關心之後，又每達200人再增設一名。","可是我想要說的就是，我們來看一下，其實在原資中心設置要點，我們可以看到，除了第二點寫得滿好的，就是說要辦理學生的生活、課業、就業輔導、生涯發展、民族教育，還有減緩原住民學生的休（退）學率，提升原住民學生的學習成就。您聽聽看，第三點，配合本部及原民會推動原住民教育事項；第四點是配合區域原資中心各項推動事項；第五點是其他相關事項，我是覺得第三點、第四點、第五點就有點令人困擾了，因為很寬，我們也常說也許這就是血汗助理的一個根源，我想這個要點可以去注意一下。我其實比較想知道的是，那生活課業、就業、民族教育的輔導呢？跟部長報告，應該你也知道，大家都在講，很多大學院校並沒有按照剛才我提到的業務報告講的由一級單位彙整，像東海大學竟然是學務處下有個領培中心，領培中心下又轄學生資源中心，然後這個學生資源中心就變成他們的附隨組織，婦女會有客人來，就去表演跳舞，也就罷了，但是老師都會說：「你們穿原住民族服很漂亮啊，我們來拍月曆啊。」學生的感受很不好，而且會覺得自己好像變成是學校的表演單位。這個我們以前都提過，可是為什麼會發生、會存在？","至於專任助理，根據教育部給我的資料，應該你們也知道，但是我不知道後續如何，你們有沒有想過要怎麼改進？好不容易教育部那麼好，竟然專任助理有50%以上，超過一半未滿一年耶！也就是說不到一年大家都選擇走人，所以這個問題一定是很大，我覺得在這個部分，薪資條件，明明教育部給的一年人事費一個助理薪資是45萬，可是竟然有超過一成六的人是拿不到3萬塊，所以我想關於這個部分，我們都知道問題所在，但是我們有沒有後續透過我們的評鑑方式去做修訂？","這一次東海大學的事件，我自己也請東海大學來，當然他們已經把原資中心拿掉了，變成在學務處下，可是他們學校竟然沒有一個原住民籍的老師，一個都沒有，竟然這樣子也能夠申請原資中心。我的意思就是說，申請原資中心很好，因為現在普及率將近百分百，有九成以上，這樣很好，因為我們確實需要大學來關心原民學生，可是我們更希望的是，這一些負責的主管要有文化敏感度，所以我在這邊特別要跟教育部拜託一下，我是希望在國小、國中、高中，根據原教法第三十四條，規定原住民重點學校的原住民師資比例。大學是沒有，但是我覺得原資中心原專班最起碼要去要求，要有這樣的一個大學，至少要聘一個原住民老師，也希望助理的聘用合約敘明工作任務，要點該修正也要修正，儘量以服務學生的量能為主，也去檢討各校的原資中心的定位、架構，我是希望在兩個月內達成。","原專班的部分我也是要關心，不曉得主席可不可以給我1分鐘，我稍微帶過，可以嗎？"],["主席：OK。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，OK，1分鐘就好。原專班也是我們很關心的，我這樣子講好了，您應該知道，一堆原專班正在關，因為招不到學生，為什麼？因為同樣的科系種類同質性太多，我要講的是，是不是到了我們要討論的時候？我之前有講，我希望教育部跟原民會討論一下，原住民自治法有一天一定會有，它是需要有一個原住民自治人才的培育搖籃，那就是原住民族大學，那原住民族大學現在沒有，但是我希望要規劃，至少我們要培育原住民自治的人才，要有哪些學系、學門，我們要有一個上位，然後再去配合各大校，這些大學院校應該要配合我們規劃的這些學系、學門，來開設原專班，而且原專班一定要設在大學的學門、學系、學院底下，才有充足的師資人力。我先稍微這樣帶過，我是希望教育部去聽一聽，辦理公聽會也好，蒐集多方意見，希望也可以在兩個月內先提出一個期程規劃方案，到時候我們再來討論，這樣可以嗎？部長。"],["潘部長文忠：好，剛才委員關心的這兩個議題，都是兩個月，不是兩週？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，兩個月。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員一直在提醒倡議，從原資中心成立當時，原本只有少數的學校設置，到現在全面設置，以及專班的設置，其實在概念、政策、資源上，我們都是支持。但我完全支持委員，在進行的過程當中，我們再做一些，不管原資中心執行任務的檢視，或專班到底要怎麼設，才不會有專班、有資源，但是學生根本就不來。讓我們有兩個月的時間，再做檢視，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我們就是滾動中修正。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝伍委員。","接下來是鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員。","登記質詢委員都已經發言完畢。","另外有林倩綺委員及呂玉玲委員提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","林倩綺","林宜瑾","吳春城","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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有請潘部長"},{"start":9.117,"end":32.463,"text":"委員好部長好辛苦了部長我最近有接到一個陳情陳情的單位是東海大學的學生以及園資中心的專任助理我想你應該有聽說這個事件對這個案子我也接到也做了進一步的處理我是這樣子想因為過去以來"},{"start":34.104,"end":41.231,"text":"應該是說從2012年我們頒布了一個大專校院設置員資中心的補助要點之後"},{"start":42.386,"end":70.497,"text":"很多的委員應該都很關心原資中心的發展那之所以關心一定是接受到很多老師跟學生的陳情那我今天在夜報有特別看到在全民原教的推動有特別提到這樣一句話就是透過這個學生原資中心然後呢由學校一級單位整合資源來推動全民原教"},{"start":71.317,"end":90.611,"text":"我覺得這句話講得很好那這個也是我們今天這個陳情案的問題所在那我要說的是其實我在110年4月的時候我曾經質詢過關於原資中心的人力問題當時呢教育部也很快在5月10號就給我一個報告"},{"start":93.593,"end":118.027,"text":"那這個報告呢也獲得報導者的一個青睞所以呢他們就特別當時呢也有做了一個報導就是原民學生的第二個家那他們提到的其實是原資中心長期以來大家所詬病的第一就是助理的部分會變成血汗助理那另外呢在學校的定位也是有被邊緣化這樣的一個困擾那很感謝其實在109年"},{"start":122.369,"end":142.975,"text":"我們已經補足原資中心一名專任人力甚至在去年我們繼續關心之後又每達200人再增市一名可是我想要說的就是我們來看一下其實我們的原資中心的設置要點"},{"start":144.415,"end":171.05,"text":"我們可以看到除了那個第二點寫得蠻好的就是說要辦理學生的生活課業就業輔導生涯發展民族教育還有減緩原住民學生的休退學率提升原住民學生的學習成就您聽聽看第三點配合本部及原民會推動原住民教育事項配合區域原資中心各項推動事項其他相關事項我是覺得這個345就有點困擾了"},{"start":173.832,"end":199.85,"text":"因為很寬啊很寬啊那我們也常說也許這就是血汗助理的一個根源啊我想這個要點可以去注意一下那我其實比較想知道的那生活課業就業民族教育的輔導呢我想跟我們部長報告應該您也知道大家都在講因為很多的"},{"start":200.868,"end":217.627,"text":"大學院校並沒有按照剛才我們業報上講的由一級單位會診喔像東海大學他竟然是學務處下有個領培中心領培中心下又下學生資源中心"},{"start":218.428,"end":224.471,"text":"然後這個學生資源中心呢就變成他們的覆水組織嘿 婦女會有客人來就去表演跳舞也就罷了但是老師都會說你們穿原住民族服很漂亮啊我們來拍月曆啊可以來那個之類的齁那個在學生的感受很不好而且會覺得自己呢好像變成是學校的表演單位這個我們以前都提過可是為什麼會發生會存在"},{"start":248.341,"end":263.188,"text":"那專任助理呢我們根據教育部給我的資料應該你們也知道但是我不知道後續的一個你們有沒有想到要怎麼改進因為竟然我們專任助理好不容易教育部那麼好欸50%以上超過一半未滿一年欸"},{"start":270.066,"end":287.307,"text":"也就是說不到一年大家都選擇走人所以這個問題一定是很大所以我覺得在這個部分薪資條件明明我們教育部給的一年人事費一個助理是45萬可是竟然有超過一成六他是拿不到三萬塊"},{"start":288.806,"end":299.654,"text":"所以我想這個部分我們都知道問題所在但是我們有沒有後續透過我們的評鑑方式去做修訂那這次東華大學的事件我自己也請我們東華大學來當然他們已經把這個原子中心拿掉了變成學務處下可是竟然他們學校沒有一個原住民級的老師欸"},{"start":316.207,"end":340.278,"text":"一個都沒有欸竟然這樣子也能夠申請原資中心欸那我的意思是說申請原資中心很好因為現在普及率將近百分百九成以上很好因為我們確實需要原民學生大學來關心可是我們更希望的是這一些負責的主管他要有文化敏感度所以我在這邊就是特別就是還是要跟教育部這邊拜託一下我們的孩子我是希望"},{"start":346.121,"end":359.977,"text":"我們國小國中高中我們有原教法第34條去規定原住民重點學校的原住民師資比例那大學是沒有但是我覺得原資中心原專班最起碼要去要求"},{"start":361.018,"end":361.258,"text":"我稍微帶過可以嗎?"},{"start":389.26,"end":398.368,"text":"一分鐘就好原專班也是我們很關心的那我現在這樣子講好了您應該知道一堆原專班正在關因為招不到學生但是呢為什麼因為他同樣的科系種類同時性太多"},{"start":409.666,"end":425.18,"text":"我要講的是說是不是到了我們要討論我之前有講過我希望教育部跟原民會討論一下原住民自治法有一天一定會有他是需要有一個原住民自治人才的培育搖籃那就是原住民主大學"},{"start":425.72,"end":440.708,"text":"那原住民族大學現在沒有但是我希望要規劃至少我們要培育原住民自治的人才要有哪些學系學門我們要有一個上位然後再去配合各大校應該這些大學院校要配合我們規劃這些學系學門來開設原專班而且原專班一定要設在大學的學門學系學院底下才有充足的師資能力那我先"},{"start":453.234,"end":462.485,"text":"稍微這樣帶過那我是希望說教育部是不是也盡量不是盡量去聽一聽辦理公聽會也好收集多方意見希望也只能可以在兩個月內先提出一個期程規劃方案那到時候我們再來討論這樣可以嗎部長"},{"start":469.212,"end":489.791,"text":"好委員就是這剛才委員關心的這兩個議題都是兩個月啦不是兩週啦喔兩個月兩個月對因為那個真的要兩個月先謝謝委員齁這個一直在提醒倡議如果我們從原民研製中心的當時少數的學校到現在全面設置以及專班的設置其實在概念政策上"},{"start":490.331,"end":490.351,"text":"謝謝吳委員"}]}},{"id":"149290","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149290","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddcf8be2aa80e87b0cf012038cf3c9e62ff8ba9b0039caa7a6ce81d6666162f8ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"13:10:17 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13:17:13","影片長度":"00:06:56","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院食品安全辦公室、衛生福利部部長、食品藥物管理署就「食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅事件處理之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":416,"end_time":"2024-03-04T13:17:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T13:10:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1306,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（13時10分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，部長請。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長，想請教您，這次沸沸揚揚的蘇丹紅事件，在行政院的定性當中，它是系統性食安問題還是個案？"],["薛部長瑞元：它是系統性問題。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，是系統性。","那這個蘇丹紅事件已經爆發多久了？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實它是逐漸地演變過來，因為一開始我們是查辣椒粉……"],["羅委員智強：我直接問您，2月21日陳建仁院長在做食安報告的時候，蘇丹紅事件就發生了嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是可以這樣講。"],["羅委員智強：請問，在他的食安報告當中，有把蘇丹紅事件放進去嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：是沒有放進去，因為那時候事情還沒有釐得很清楚。"],["羅委員智強：我要告訴部長一個重點，上次陳建仁院長的食安報告有一個很重要的結論，就是說蔡英文總統任內的食安安全維護的工作做得比馬英九要強嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，那個報告裡面是這樣講。"],["羅委員智強：但是我從頭到尾看到裡面只有一個客觀的數字，叫做系統性食安事件的比較，你們舉了馬政府7件，那你們自己舉幾件？"],["薛部長瑞元：我印象中是兩件。"],["羅委員智強：兩件，不算蘇丹紅，是兩件。","那麼系統性食安問題，這是你用來認定什麼是系統性、什麼是個案，那你再據以來認定說，馬政府的食安做得比你們差，可是整篇陳建仁院長的報告，我沒有看到有其他的論點、論述說他做得比較好。我舉個例子，陳建仁院長跟我在數字上的交鋒質詢，我有問他說：馬政府時期食品中毒的人數跟蔡英文總統時期哪一個比較多，上次我問過，當時你在旁邊嘛。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，是說馬政府時比較少。"],["羅委員智強：蔡英文時期比較多嘛，對不對？然後院長還不相信我的數字，要回去查，那請問回去查的結果是誰比較多？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為其實一般來講，食物中毒案件的話，要……"],["羅委員智強：我知道啦，院長當場就回答我說，食品中毒不是食安問題嘛，你認同這個觀點嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這是食安問題，但是很難歸類……"],["羅委員智強：那很好啊，你又更正院長，沒關係，我就跟你講，至少食品安全的部分馬政府做得比你好啊，以數字來看啊。然後你在食安報告當中一直強調，你們檢驗很多嘛，對不對？是吧？因為檢驗非常積極，我認同這個，檢驗積極也代表對食安的重視嘛，對不對？那你也知道我也問了院長一句話：請問馬政府檢驗食品安全的檢驗數高還是蔡英文政府？"],["薛部長瑞元：這要看檢驗……"],["羅委員智強：不用看啦，你看中華民國統計資訊網就知道了，平均每年馬政府是72萬件，蔡英文政府是51萬件，每年多了21萬件，你檢驗數字不如人，食品中毒數字又比人家高，結果就是因為你們定性為系統性跟個案，你作一個結論，說你們做得比較好。接下來我就問，實驗室標準的蘇丹紅一公克大概多少錢？實驗室標準的蘇丹紅。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們手上沒有這個資料。"],["羅委員智強：胸腔科醫師蘇一峰說，大概就是一公克17萬臺幣嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：是蘇丹紅嗎？"],["羅委員智強：他講蘇丹紅，實驗室購買的蘇丹紅。那食安辦要不要說蘇丹紅比黃金跟鑽石還要貴，所以不會有人拿來使用？會不會有這個結論？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是不一樣的，一個是在實驗室，一個是在……"],["羅委員智強：答對了。那當初為什麼在討論西布特羅時就會出現這個論點呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為西布特羅沒有在其他地方用。"],["羅委員智強：我再問您，我想請教您，2018年公告列管蘇丹紅之後，什麼時候首次查到辣椒粉添加蘇丹紅？蘇丹紅的事件這麼大，部長，這個基本數字恐怕你要知道。2021年9月。想請問你，事發到現在兩年半，食藥署做了什麼積極防範？結果蘇丹紅越查越多。"],["薛部長瑞元：我跟委員報告，蘇丹紅在過去111年的時候，在邊境上面並沒有檢出。"],["羅委員智強：2022年到2023年，143批的辣椒粉有9批不合格，那為什麼到2023年12月才開始逐批查驗？"],["薛部長瑞元：那個不合格其實是有多種的，主要是農藥，農藥不合格是占多數。"],["羅委員智強：我再問部長，光是雄檢查封高雄輸入跟製造業者違規產品就達到3萬2,739公斤，可是我看到衛福部的報告說是2萬3,759公斤，為什麼差了1萬公斤？"],["薛部長瑞元：差一天，結果是雄檢就去扣押了這個……"],["羅委員智強：所以顯然你們的計算標準跟雄檢也不一樣，那我就要跟大家講，從這個角度來看，我們難道不用擔心有多少的蘇丹紅不在你的控管範圍之內，有冰山一角沒被看到的，有沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們現在就循線在查……"],["羅委員智強：我問有沒有嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：當然有可能，我們目前……"],["羅委員智強：有可能而已喔？我跟各位講，我沒有苛責食藥署或苛責衛福部，食品查驗通常就是冰山一角理論，你知道吧？你查到，代表在查到之前有多少流入市面？你開始全面逐批查驗之前有多少流入市面？有沒有估過？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分我們是沒有正確去估啦。"],["羅委員智強：最後，我要跟部長說一句話，食安問題不要牽拖前朝，食安問題在蔡英文總統任內就好好地面對，不要去用一些很特殊的標準，然後去做一些很奇怪的比較，現在蘇丹紅事件發生，請我們衛福部繃緊神經，捍衛人民的食安，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我們現在就是針對蘇丹紅食安，我們自己擔起這個責任。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝部長，感謝您。"],["主席：好，我們謝謝羅智強委員的質詢。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員林德福所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員林德福書面質詢：","問題一","首先，「食品安全」沒有「意識形態」，不分朝野，都希望國人吃得健康。全國民眾也期待「中央」與「地方」政府共同合作，替民眾好好把關食品安全。","最近這幾天占據媒體版面的食品安全違規案件發生，究竟是「食安法」罰責過輕，還是「抽檢頻率」過低，讓「業者」心存僥倖？薛部長在520前，是否會重新檢討「食安法」？還是交由「新執政團隊」規劃？","問題二","去年「好市多進口莓果受A肝病毒汙染事件」爆發，才發現「好市多」不需要依「食安法」設立「食品安全實驗室」，有許多立委認為「量販業者」也應投資食品安全，納入「應設置食品安全實驗室」規範中，「衛福部薛部長」您當時答詢允諾將研議。","如今已過了九個月，我的助理也再次向「食藥署」確認，有設立實驗室辦理自主檢驗事宜，目前只有「楓康超市」與「家樂福」兩家業者。","請問，這件事就不了了之了嗎？民眾每天上賣場採買生鮮食品，請問薛部長，要如何強化「食品通路業者」自主把關的責任？","問題三","「食安基金」113年度編列「食品安全保護計畫」3,760萬，提升地方政府辦理促進食品安全工作意願。","請問薛部長，目前該筆預算運用已有那些初步成果？本席希望將該計畫每季執行成果提供給全體立委參考。","此外，如果地方政府申請補助「食安保護計畫」踴躍，後續會如何因應？114年「食品安全保護計畫」預算是否會再翻倍成長？","問題四","日本福島核處理水前幾天進行第四批次排放，本席知道「核能安全委員會」有對「台灣周遭海域」進行輻射監測，目前並無影響。","但是，本席提醒衛福部，根據衛福部公布的「日本輸入食品輻射檢測結果」，對於「海鮮水產類」，曾查出39件含有輻射，且數值相較於日本其他食品都來得高。","本席希望衛福部要隨著「日本福島核處理水」「排放次數」與「排放總體積」的增加，對於日本輸台的「冷藏水產品」、「冷凍水產品」與「海草類」查驗頻率要隨之增加，以確保國人食品安全！"],["主席：現在作以下決定：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復。委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會。謝謝部長、各部會首長。也謝謝各位委員、各位工作人員。謝謝。","散會（13時17分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":296,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-2","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","林月琴","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","楊曜","林淑芬","陳雪生","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","陳瑩","王鴻薇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","林德福"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院食品安全辦公室、衛生福利部部長、食品藥物管理署就「食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅\n事件處理之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130601_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.5372187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.89784375,"end":16.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.26034375,"end":18.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.356593750000002,"end":22.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.723468750000002,"end":25.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.74846875,"end":29.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.66346875,"end":35.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.67096875,"end":36.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.83534375,"end":38.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.978468750000005,"end":41.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蔡英文政府是51萬件每年多了21萬件"},{"start":206.348,"end":233.577,"text":"你檢驗數字不如人食品中毒數字比人家高結果就是因為你們定性的系統性跟個案你給我做個結論說你們做得比較好那接下來就問齁實驗室標準的蘇丹紅一公克大概多少錢實驗室標準的蘇丹紅這個我們手上沒有這個資料胸腔科醫師蘇一峰說啦齁大概就是一公克17萬台幣嘛對不對是蘇丹紅嗎"},{"start":236.912,"end":237.414,"text":"他講蘇丹紅實驗室購買蘇丹紅"},{"start":240.373,"end":266.893,"text":"那食安辦要不要說蘇丹紅比黃金跟鑽石還要貴所以不會有拿來使用會不會有這個結論這應該是不一樣啦一個是在實驗室當然不一樣嘛答對了嘛那當初為什麼在西部特羅就會出現這個論點呢因為西部特羅沒有在其他地方用我再問您齁我想請教您齁2018公告列管蘇丹紅之後什麼時候首次查到辣椒粉添加蘇丹紅"},{"start":270.752,"end":283.3,"text":"蘇丹紅的事件這麼大部長這個基本數字恐怕你要知道2021年9月啦要想請問你事發到現在兩年半食藥署做什麼積極防範結果蘇丹紅越查越多"},{"start":287.05,"end":308.182,"text":"這部分的話其實我也跟委員報告就是說蘇丹紅這個事情的話是在過去111年的時候那在邊境上面並沒有檢出出來啦2022年到2023年143批的辣椒粉有9批不合格那為什麼到2023年12月才開始逐批查驗"},{"start":309.639,"end":322.983,"text":"那個不合格其實是有多種的包括說主要是農藥,農藥不合格是佔多數啦再問部長齁光熊檢、查豐、高雄酥魚跟自造業者違規產品就達到32739公斤"},{"start":328.089,"end":357.489,"text":"可是我看到這個衛福部的報告說是兩萬三千七百五十九公斤那為什麼差了一萬公斤所以顯然你們的計算標準跟雄檢也不一樣我就要跟大家講你到底從這個角度來我們難道不用擔心有多少的蘇丹紅不在你的控管範圍之內冰山一角沒被看到的有沒有"},{"start":358.429,"end":387.272,"text":"我們現在就尋現在查到當然有可能我們目前有可能而已喔我跟各位講我沒有苛責食藥署或苛責衛福部喔我只是講說食品查驗通常是就是冰山一角理論你知道吧你查到代表查到之前有多少流入市面這個比例上你開始全面逐批查驗之前有多少流入市面你有沒有估過這部分我們是沒有正確去估啦最後我要跟"},{"start":388.151,"end":410.79,"text":"部長說一句話啦食安問題不要牽扯前朝食安問題在蔡英文總統任內就好好的面對不要去用一些很特殊的標準然後去做一些很奇怪的比較現在蘇丹紅事件發生請我們衛福部繃緊神經捍衛人民的食安好不好我們現在就是針對蘇丹紅我們自己謝謝部長感謝您好我們謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149289","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149289","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd63709df9b1d3de1fbaff13691fd5102bf8ba9b0039caa7a691973a31aecd7fbc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"13:09:05 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Tahovecahe委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","林倩綺","林宜瑾","吳春城","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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因為剛才委員提到應該是准工幼跟非營利跟公幼跟私立 其實准工幼很多都還比私立的待遇應該相對的比較有保障 因為那個是跟政府合作的當然當然 是保障是比較好"},{"start":164.909,"end":173.411,"text":"現在即將在8月要進入我們所謂第三個階段的合作企業的訂定那這一次在這方面因為各界包括委員這邊有多關心在第三屆要跟這個總工又來訂約的時候我們現在正在在討論的就是說對於他們教保同仁的薪資待遇在這方面也希望能夠在這一次的議約裡面來做這方面的一個處理目前正在討論這個"},{"start":194.517,"end":200.981,"text":"目前還在討論要訂閱,因為這個一定下去就是兩年嘛,三年嘛,一定就是三年嘛所以我想在這一次訂閱的時候有一個合理的價格前面那兩項都不是在預約範圍,我們就是外加啦,就是教保費是外加的那現在進入到薪資就會在第三屆,第三期啦"},{"start":218.852,"end":219.032,"text":"拜訪教育部長"},{"start":239.898,"end":252.368,"text":"好那我想這部分就是繼續努力了那第二個議題這個問題也是很大就是我們的雙語政策因為我在去年我接到好多教師跟我陳情說我們雙語政策事實上是給老師過大的使用英語去進行教學的負擔比方說他可能是教"},{"start":261.435,"end":262.476,"text":"蔡易餘 蔡易餘"},{"start":280.569,"end":292.467,"text":"所以我們這個雙語政策會不會說科語第一個老師這個使用英語教學過重的一個義務那以及說有沒有更好的方式來落實我們的雙語政策"},{"start":293.556,"end":297.017,"text":"我跟你們報告我為什麼說教育部一定要再跟縣市更同一步調跟目標當然委員所提的數學等等的這幾個自然這些領域這都不是在我們推動在這個部分領域去進行的項目但有些縣市可能在這上面有一點求好我接到的陳情就真的好很多"},{"start":316.403,"end":319.245,"text":"所以這個就是我說為什麼要對因為我們現在在推的比較都是一些比較日常的包含有一些領域可能在這個學科上面是可以比較用日常互動的這個方式來進行因為我們應該是要給他們有這個英語的環境"},{"start":333.973,"end":339.739,"text":"但這個環境不應該是在說每一個學科都使用英語教學這個絕對不會要到每個學科而且現在也聽取地方這個學校第一層的這個意見甚至我們在部分領域的部分學校在提計畫的時候也可以不是用領域的這種核心的概念他比如說利用課間社團等等的這方面"},{"start":357.717,"end":357.737,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149288","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149288","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd6f3a7db134d37fc2f012038cf3c9e62ff8ba9b0039caa7a64640a3937bfeec955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:02:57 - 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對不對我想請問當下老師校方的處理怎麼樣"},{"start":231.698,"end":235.76,"text":"事實上第一時間老師學生反應就通報教官那目前你知道教育部的估算全國有1900位教官對不對"},{"start":261.638,"end":263.239,"text":"昨天的情形沒有教官"},{"start":274.966,"end":292.589,"text":"老師跟學生怎麼處理?委員現在教官如果離退後我們替補的是校安人力這個部分會比原來教官還多1.5倍的人我期待你的替補措施能夠補充教官所擔任的安全工作那我想請問你最後這個失控學生是怎麼被壓制的?現場的情形我就比較不了解因為很多老師也做資源你剛剛說你有看過看要看仔細"},{"start":303.058,"end":320.771,"text":"事實上最後是這個學生離開教室又折返再度毆打老師老師完全沒有動手任憑被打就是四五個同學撲上去壓制學生我想請問老師也不敢動手教官也不敢動手最後是由同學來去壓制這是正確的SOP嗎"},{"start":324.1,"end":327.122,"text":"你完全講到重點了過去這些年老師多辛苦的原因是什麼"},{"start":339.929,"end":359.25,"text":"因為我們在一些錯誤的教育政策之下我們過度的剝奪了老師的管教權使得今天這老師即便面對暴力都無力以對到最後竟然要靠學生同學也沒有執法權他在壓制學生過程當中如果學生受傷請問那些同學不是也很無辜嗎"},{"start":360.171,"end":361.031,"text":"謝謝部長希望您更盡力因為老師真的仰仗教育部的努力感謝您"},{"start":389.096,"end":390.379,"text":"我們會持續努力,謝謝好,謝謝羅委員,謝謝部長那我們接下來是王洪威委員一樣5分鐘,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149285","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149285","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd61f4713ec82e2b6df012038cf3c9e62ff8ba9b0039caa7a6ce5da3b85f5c283a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:55:29 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有請部長好 請部長委員好部長好 剛剛部長在回答其他委員質詢的時候已經講得很清楚了蘇丹紅的事件是一個系統性的問題嗎對這不是個案嗎不是那這個系統性的問題什麼時候發生的其實是它是逐漸的那個什麼時候再去什麼時候你們認為是一個系統性的問題"},{"start":45.722,"end":59.721,"text":"這個是從大約是去年啦 去年的時候對 什麼時候你們認為它是系統性的問題應該是說從5月拉 我們 去年5月從去年5月我們就對 什麼時候你們認為它是一個系統性的問題 這問題有這麼難回答嗎"},{"start":61.932,"end":77.999,"text":"去年5月我們就開始有加強抽批嘛所以我們懷疑它是一個系統性的問題那什麼時候懷疑陳真?什麼時候從你們懷疑認為它是一個系統性的問題是到今天才這樣認定嗎?當然不是啊那是什麼時候?"},{"start":79.559,"end":84.722,"text":"我其實問這麼長齁你一直在繞我只問一個問題啦為什麼當初行政院院長陳建仁在提台灣食安報告總檢討專案報告的時候蘇丹紅三個字半個字都沒寫"},{"start":95.319,"end":121.759,"text":"所以那個時候還沒有認為是系統性現在才認為是系統性嗎好啦沒有關係啦我直接進入今天的問題啦齁有兩家高雄的廠商一個是金站國際一個是加廣從你們的新聞稿說驗出7批蘇丹紅辣椒粉嘛那他們進口的數量也不少那從你們7批驗出來的你們跟社會大眾講的下一頁"},{"start":123.799,"end":143.115,"text":"你們說保存期限到什麼時候他是什麼時候輸入的這個資訊的是不是能夠做得好一點他什麼時候輸入的我不care他的保存期限到什麼時候他已經被封了嘛他已經被查扣了嘛不能用嘛那你跟我講他什麼"},{"start":146.012,"end":151.656,"text":"我關心的事情是他什麼時候輸入的?最後一批到什麼時候?12月4號那不對啊!12月不是百分之百除批抽驗怎麼還進得來?"},{"start":166.463,"end":180.34,"text":"12月11才開始辦所以剛好在他逐批抽驗以前陸陸續續就進來了嘛是嗎部長你可不可以承諾我一件事這種跟食安攸關的事情我們基本上面的資訊透明把它做好可以嗎"},{"start":181.839,"end":206.122,"text":"當然是可以可以嘛 什麼時候輸入的請你們清楚的公告因為我們其實很關心的是什麼在關心的是在查核的時候不僅僅是我們的查核人員很辛苦我們也很關心這是不是一個不孝廠商我為什麼說我們也很關心這是不是一個不孝廠商來 下一頁 去年你們說你們5月開始嘛"},{"start":207.322,"end":207.342,"text":"對啊!"},{"start":230.105,"end":245.016,"text":"這個問題就來了嘛 好他去年五院抽全部都合格他是不是心存僥倖覺得說 哇 厚嘎仔我抽全部都合格結果被抽全部都合格了以後繼續進 繼續進 繼續進進到你12月主批查驗為止他不斷的在進這個有讀蘇丹紅的辣椒粉"},{"start":253.567,"end":280.806,"text":"部長你的觀察呢這當然齁就是找出這一個查驗的抽批的漏洞齁那廠商好來我現在的問題就來了齁你們2023年5月要加強抽驗以前你們為什麼要大剌剌的跟全部的廠商講說我要加強抽驗了是要通知他說欸大家小心喔大家注意喔現在要加強抽驗喔你如果是加廣"},{"start":283.991,"end":312.517,"text":"那兩 那其實他是兩家公司但是我相信部長很清楚啦住址登記在從一個地方負責人應該是清晰啦實際上就是一家公司啦你們一發公告了以後他馬上收到通知說 喔 接下來要小心了所以接下來抽煙都抽煙不到嘛等到高雄市衛生局公告全部合格上面還有他們的名字的時候就開始什麼死命拼命的進"},{"start":314.161,"end":342.828,"text":"部長我對於他們這個二職的廠商剛剛這樣子行為的描述你認不認同這是有可能是好到目前為止我們對這兩家二職的廠商雖然實質上一家形式上兩家嘛做了什麼處罰這兩家是已經有移送了有發劃嗎目前的話是移送那個地檢署的側班有發劃嗎目前還沒有有勒定停業先業嗎"},{"start":344.85,"end":372.931,"text":"食品安全衛生法裡面有的行政法上的效果我相信部長很清楚啦部長行政法的專家阿為什麼不罰阿為什麼不採取強制的行政處分的效果阿就移送嗎這樣可以嗎這兩家公司有什麼特殊的背景嗎應該是沒有嘛這麼可惡只要數千大剌剌的通知他們公告"},{"start":373.803,"end":388.549,"text":"好趕快結果抽驗高雄市衛生局抽驗全部合格然後一公告了以後死命拼命的進等到現在才查驗出來結果還沒有裁罰欸這兩家公司是有什麼背景"},{"start":390.13,"end":410.241,"text":"這部分的話可能就是說在統統方面以為就先行後先行法後行政了但是對於有關的相關的一些處理不在於這個不是嘛我剛已經把他二子的行為描述的很清楚了嘛所以我們會督促這個地方事情風波都已經到現在結果有裁罰的只有新北市欸"},{"start":411.081,"end":436.062,"text":"阿高雄那兩家就放他過?這樣對嗎?不會放他過啦對嘛 但是到目前我質詢為止還沒有對他怎麼樣嘛所以我們會督促地方政府來做採取啦OK 我們希望齁 盡快針對資訊公開的部分該處理的部分衛福部趕快印起來讓全國消費大眾看到我們衛福部保護食安的決心這樣好不好?好 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等等的"},{"start":212.857,"end":228.352,"text":"在這方面我想主要是讓孩子有一個稍微喘息的這樣的一個空間所以你的心理輔導跟你的諮商資源你夠嗎?對文化在補充的就是這個你夠嗎?這個是對孩子本身那現在像大學為什麼在學生輔導法還在討論但是今年的預算已經將大學1比1200調為1比900"},{"start":235.759,"end":252.21,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":252.21,"end":274.855,"text":"﹚楊瓊瓔"},{"start":274.855,"end":276.256,"text":"市長,謝謝你責成這個專案因為五年是八倍的數字讓我非常的憂心"},{"start":293.813,"end":314.382,"text":"我們要國高中來做你的資源夠嗎?你要怎麼樣去盤點?因為事辦就有40所學校所以我建議你專案去討論討論出來他的資商他的資源到底要人力資源要怎麼做你要盤點出來順便資料給本席因為時間的關係請你把順便資料給本席再一個議題給你"},{"start":322.265,"end":322.285,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":340.987,"end":341.007,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":356.205,"end":381.498,"text":"跟委員報告那當然對大學校園這個招生單位包含教授這針對學習歷程的部分這個詳細的資料我們把資料整理在因為早上也幾位委員都在關切了對我一定把它整理也給委員做參考它不是賣嘛對不對所以你很清楚啊所以部長你自己來行的你要去盤點你既然提出這樣的政策你要怎麼樣讓它制度能夠周全"},{"start":382.819,"end":382.939,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"149283","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149283","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd67b2e45e4ac3c694f012038cf3c9e62ff8ba9b0039caa7a66455311a68b89ff25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:48:36 - 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Kacaw委員：但是真的要加油，我們看一下原住民學生保障辦法，特別提到現在都是外加名額，經過我的質詢、協調，102年這個保障辦法第三條第三項第二款修正了，特別增加大專校院由教育部會商原民會之後，可以專案調高升學保障的比率，從2%可以調高到5%，這個是因為我質詢葉俊榮部長的時候，同意專案調高5%。但是我們現在來看近五年大專校院學生粗在學率的原漢差距，107學年度31.9，108學年度31.5，109學年度31.4，110學年度32.2，111學年度32.4，結果原漢的落差還增加，所以這個部分真的要加油，要怎樣加油？很簡單，現在不是少子女化很嚴重嗎？大專學生不是越來越少嘛！怎麼會沒有辦法增加呢？你看只有這幾個科系專案調高，為辦理大專校院原住民學生外加名額專案調高的只有這麼多，所以這個部分應該怎麼做？不是應該，一定要專案調高，不然我們是不是修法全部改為5%？"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員，一開始也跟委員報告了，這些年委員一直對原住民族孩子的升學持續關注，當然這包含幾項，學生經濟的部分，委員之前也有建議，有關學費的補助等等都有一些措施，現在原民專班也持續設置，大專校院目前大概已經有將近40所學校設置，原資中心幾乎是每校必備的資源，在整個支持體系和預算增加上，這些年教育部確實持續增加。委員提到的粗在學率的部分，其實這3年是有逐漸增加，當然委員關切我們有5%的彈性，但是系所所增置的部分，我也跟委員報告，很多的系所根本招不到人，就是核給它的名額，學生還不到這麼多，這部分教育部一定會持續跟原民會討論，因為委員所說的辦法也要教育部會同原民會做人才上面的規劃。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，剛才數據已經讓你知道了，這個差距是在增加的，沒有減少啊！"],["潘部長文忠：委員是說原漢，但我跟委員報告的是說他們留在學校的學生是有比較改善。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我鄭重的建議，因為外加2%已經很久了，從民國九十幾年到現在。"],["潘部長文忠：有些系所已經到5%。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：還是很少啊！"],["潘部長文忠：現在只要我們評估有需要，就會請學校處理，因為外加名額不影響到國內學生的權益。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，不是評估，儘量協調、想辦法協調這些大專院校嘛！對不對？想辦法增加、協調，盡力的去協調專案調高外加5%，去落實這條條文。"],["潘部長文忠：教育部會持續努力，也希望委員能夠接受一個說明，因為我們都會去看入學狀態，不然名額一直多給，但是學生沒有選那麼多，委員知道我的意思，那個意義就不大。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不然你把資料提供來。"],["潘部長文忠：好，如果學生有需求，意願也高，我們會盡力協調。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你把資料提供給我，看看是怎樣的因素。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：最後，東海大學原資中心爭議的問題，邱韻芳教授特別提到，給了建議完全沒有用，超離譜！這是他的臉書，裡面也提到教育部應該要多輔導原資中心，原本對於設置原資中心是非常善意的，現在變成負面的，我知道你們也去協調過，但是文化敏感度各方面不夠，讓原資中心能夠幫忙，不然現在反而造成學生的困擾，甚至學生權益的受損。"],["潘部長文忠：因為這個個案我有深入了解，也請團隊過去幫忙，確實人員的觀念是最根本的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對對對。"],["潘部長文忠：出發點就沒有這個概念，說實在會越幫越忙，學校也接受，會做調整。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你要提供後續處理的資料。"],["潘部長文忠：是，這個個案我有請同仁特別注意，謝謝委員。"],["主席：麻煩部長再提書面資料給鄭委員。","接下來是謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員。","接下來是楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","林倩綺","林宜瑾","吳春城","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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因為在剛委員所說的這個辦法也要教育部會同園民會做人才上的這項面的更換這個差距是在增加的"},{"start":261.843,"end":264.505,"text":"我鄭重的建議是不是因為這個外加2%已經很久了從民國90幾年到現在了"},{"start":285.06,"end":286.141,"text":"市長 不是評估 盡量協調 想辦法協調這些大專業校嘛"},{"start":305.361,"end":329.654,"text":"想辦法增加協調,盡力的去協調外加專案條高外加百分之五,去落實這條條文嘛。您這個教育部會持續努力。我也希望能接受一個啦,因為我們都會去看入學狀態嘛,不然你名額雖然一直給多,但是學生編又寫那麼多,你那個沒有人知道意思嘛,那個意義就不大。"},{"start":330.094,"end":330.914,"text":"請教育部部長潘文忠列席"},{"start":356.833,"end":381.899,"text":"教授他特別提到給的建議完全沒有用超離譜這是他的臉書然後這裡面他也提到研製中心教育部應該多要多輔導所以這個部分因為時間的關係這個對研製中心本來又非常善意現在變得負面了這個部分我知道你們也去調過但是不夠"},{"start":385.04,"end":391.623,"text":"委員這個個案因為我有深入瞭解請團隊過去幫忙那人員上確實觀念那是最根本你一出發點就沒有這個概念所以才越幫越忙這個學校也接受會做調整你也提供這個後續的事"},{"start":413.814,"end":413.954,"text":"謝依鳳委員"}]}},{"id":"149281","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149281","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddc72126c9a9613280f012038cf3c9e62ff8ba9b0039caa7a6f51ed4bceb2f374b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:37:41 - 12:48:29","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院食品安全辦公室、衛生福利部部長、食品藥物管理署就「食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅事件處理之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":648,"end_time":"2024-03-04T12:48:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T12:37:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1108,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時37分）麻煩請部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好"],["陳委員瑩：部長好，依照現行的規定，輸入一般食品不需要預先做審查，但是輸入錠狀、膠囊狀的食品就要先向食藥署辦理查驗。"],["薛部長瑞元：那個是健康食品。"],["陳委員瑩：健康食品？一般的食品……"],["薛部長瑞元：一般的食品？好。"],["陳委員瑩：剛剛是說到這個輸入錠狀跟膠囊狀的食品就要先向食藥署來辦理查驗登記，這個部分是依據食安法第二十一條的規定，也是為了確保這類的食品、食品的原料跟食品添加物符合我國的規定，然後來保障我們國人的健康，主要是為了這樣。但是我們現在去看，像蝦皮上面有一堆代購或者是平行輸入的賣家，他是沒有經過這個查驗登記就在上面販售錠狀、膠囊狀的食品，更誇張的是，他們發現說有業者準備進行查驗登記的產品，如果依國內相關規定，其食品原料還有添加物是需要做調整的，不然是不符合規定，即不能輸入的，但是現在卻已經有賣家在蝦皮上面在販售這個產品。","那我們辦公室去年就有曾經找食藥署一起來討論這個問題，也要求食藥署要針對蝦皮、臉書、還有LINE這些新興販售通路加以管理，要求這些平台業者應該要下架這些沒有經過查驗登記的產品，以避免網路購物成為我們食安上的另外一個破口，我們也要保障國人的健康，以及合法進口代理商的權益。但食藥署表示有些狀況是賣家在網路平台架設廣告，消費者下訂之後，商品是從國外再寄到台灣來，因為法規沒有禁止自用輸入，所以很難證明這部分是個人要使用，還是代購帶進台灣之後在網路上違法販售的。這些廣告因為也沒有中文標示，所以明顯違反食安法，代理商可以就沒有中文標示的部分進行檢舉。而衛福部公告的錠狀、膠囊狀食品，應依法辦理查驗登記，目的也是為了我們國人的健康。","但是面對目前蝦皮、臉書還有LINE平臺上販售的錠狀、膠囊狀食品，食藥署卻說很難去證明是自用還是違法，後來就是建議合法代理商以標示不符規定來進行檢舉。本席認為這樣是比較消極的做法，我不太認同，而且去年預算審查的時候，我也有提案要求食藥署針對這部分進行檢討。現在蝦皮的購物商城，其實隨便點進去還是一大堆平行輸入，沒有中文標示的錠狀、膠囊狀食品，所以我也想請教食藥署，從去年審查預算到現在，這中間有什麼樣的積極作為？"],["薛部長瑞元：我請署長先回答。"],["吳署長秀梅：委員好，針對這個部分，其實我們一直都有跟平臺在溝通，我們希望平臺也幫我們把關，就是當這些產品要上架的話，要看到商品已經通過我們查驗登記。不過有時候有些平臺並沒有那麼配合，這部分我們確實是還需要再找他們來開會。"],["陳委員瑩：所以如果這些平臺不配合的時候，食藥署有什麼更積極的方式嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實是這樣子，平臺的管理是一件事情，因為這涉及到資訊提供跟廣告的問題，但是不管怎麼樣，最後會有真實的、實際的貨品進來，所以這些沒有經過查驗登記，剛剛提到這類的食品，事實上一旦提供就已經違法。我是認為在平臺處理的話一定有它的困難度，因為有些可能架設在國外，我們也沒辦法直接從那邊去做取締，如果是在國內的，我們倒是可以要求它下架。但是不管怎麼樣，這種違規的產品如果到了消費者手裡，其實就會很容易造成傷害，所以我們會要求食藥署這邊提高檢舉，因為一定是內部的才容易找得到問題，比較容易能夠掌握這些商品到底跑到哪裡去。"],["陳委員瑩：無論是檢舉、查緝的比重和專注度，我都希望過去這些比較難抓到的要加強，過去監察委員林國明以及王麗珍委員，他們在2021年10月有針對違法廣告產品不斷危害國人健康，以及消費的權益有糾正衛福部。面對監察院的糾正，食藥署分別在2022年8月和2024年1月修正食品安全衛生管理法第45條規定廣告處理原則，希望透過加權的事項，加重裁處的力道，嚇阻違規食品的廣告。","現在的問題是，網路媒體非常快速的蓬勃發展，就像我先前也有針對衛福部，應該是說上一屆，本席也針對衛福部官員肖像被盜用的違規藥品廣告質詢了幾次，最後衛福部也只能很無奈表示，這些廣告的IP位置都在國外，查不到、罰不到，以無法要求下架來回應我們。","我想請教部長，如果食藥署的加權事項、加重裁處的力道，到最後都只能罰到廣播、電視和購物頻道等媒體，那這是不是變相在鼓勵業者以後都用國外的IP位置來做廣告？因為罰到的都是在國內有繳稅的嘛！反而在國外這些違法的罰不到，以後大家業績不好都倒掉了，然後都跑到國外去。"],["薛部長瑞元：國外的這些產品，要送到國內給個別消費者的時候，一定會有一個中間商，因為他不太可能直接從國外經由物流直接送到消費者，通常會有一個中間的儲存點，也就是會有一家公司在處理這件事。所以我剛剛提到的就是，我們希望經由檢舉來進行查獲，這樣就可以找得到，因為這些商品是實際存在的，一旦讓我們破獲之後，在處罰上是蠻重的，就是剛剛委員提到的。"],["陳委員瑩：其實檢舉的部分監察院也有提到啦！就是說國內各類新興媒體持續蓬勃發展，違規食品廣告手法不斷翻新，已占各媒體廣告的總違規件數近六成，然網站食品廣告的監控強度卻不及廣播、電視等傳統媒體。","我剛剛也點出這個問題啊！針對這些新興的媒體，特別是IP位置在國外的部分，剛剛部長有特別講加強檢舉的部分，我也希望這些鑽漏洞、IP在國外的，當然你們人力有限我也了解，但是我希望大家能否更專注這個部分？確實大家都上蝦皮去看，我覺得這部分確實是比起從國內抓的難度還要高一點，但也比較嚴重，所以我在這邊特別點出這個問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我們的意思就是說，不要太過執著在要去查廣告，而是必須要查實體的東西，實體的東西才比較有機會查得到。如果透過檢舉讓我們查到，我們可以把處罰金額的一部分當成檢舉獎金，這樣檢舉獎金的額度就會很高，可以鼓勵民眾進行檢舉。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝部長的回應，我們也給食藥署加油啦！大家很辛苦，希望可以更專注在我提出的部分，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請王委員鴻薇發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":296,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-2","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","林月琴","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","楊曜","林淑芬","陳雪生","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","陳瑩","王鴻薇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","林德福"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院食品安全辦公室、衛生福利部部長、食品藥物管理署就「食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅\n事件處理之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130601_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.738468750000003,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.645343750000002,"end":11.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.06221875,"end":16.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.78784375,"end":17.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.289718750000002,"end":33.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.78534375,"end":36.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.58221875,"end":39.282218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.06721875,"end":38.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.299093750000004,"end":39.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.36659375,"end":39.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.68721875,"end":39.720968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.720968750000004,"end":39.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.75471875,"end":40.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.77159375,"end":40.142843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.21034375,"end":40.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.68284375,"end":40.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.189093750000005,"end":42.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.09159375,"end":137.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.33846875,"end":207.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.70721875,"end":253.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.10909375,"end":257.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.50971875,"end":258.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","sta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請部長委員好"},{"start":17.063,"end":41.694,"text":"部長好依照現行的規定那個輸入一般食品不需要先做預先做審查但是輸入這個錠狀還有膠囊狀的食品就要先向食藥署辦理這個查驗的案子那個什麼健康食品健康食品一般的食品那但是呢"},{"start":44.138,"end":49.481,"text":"主要是為了確保這一類的食品以及這個食品的原料跟這個食品添加物符合我國的規定然後來保障我們國人的健康主要是為了這樣"},{"start":71.934,"end":88.861,"text":"但是我們現在去看這個蝦皮上面有一堆代購或者是平行輸入的賣家他是沒有經過這個查驗登記就在上面販售定狀膠囊狀的食品更誇張的是有業者"},{"start":90.021,"end":108.16,"text":"他們發現說他們準備進行查驗登記的產品那如果依國內相關規定他的食品原料還有添加物是需要做調整的不然是不符合規定不能輸入的但是這個產品呢現在卻已經有賣家在蝦皮上面在販售"},{"start":109.421,"end":137.096,"text":"那我們辦公室呢去年就有曾經找食藥署一起來討論這個問題那也要求食藥署要針對這個蝦皮、臉書還有LINE這些新興販售通路加以管理來要求這個平台業者應該要下架這些沒有經過茶葉登記的產品那避免說這個網路購物呢成為就是說我們食安上的另外一個破口那"},{"start":138.738,"end":157.258,"text":"我們也要保障國人的健康以及這個合法進口代理商的這個權益那但是就是說食藥署表示就是說有些狀況是賣家在網路平台架設廣告那消費者下訂之後呢商品是從國外再寄到台灣來那因為"},{"start":158.98,"end":175.499,"text":"法規它沒有禁止說自用輸入所以很難證明說這個部分是這個個人要使用的呢還是說代購自己代進台灣之後在網路上違法販售的那這些廣告因為它也沒有"},{"start":176.519,"end":198.233,"text":"中文標示明顯違反食安法．代理商可以就沒有中文標示的部分進行檢舉那在這個衛福部公告的這個錠狀、膠囊狀的食品因依法辦理查驗登記那當然剛剛講過目的也是為了我們國人的健康那但是面對說目前我們蝦皮、臉書還有LINE這些販售的錠狀、膠囊狀的食品食藥署卻很難說去證明"},{"start":205.838,"end":229.654,"text":"是自用還是違法那剛剛就後來就是建議說用這個建議這個合法的代理商以標示不符規定來進行檢舉本期是認為說這樣的方式是一個比較消極的這個做法那我是不太認同這樣那也是希望而且是在去年預算審查的時候"},{"start":230.094,"end":230.534,"text":"請署長先回答"},{"start":259.594,"end":277.127,"text":"委員好 針對這個部分其實我們一直都跟平台在溝通我們希望平台也幫我們把關就是說當他這些產品要上架的話他要看到他其實已經經過我們查驗登記不過有時候有一些平台並沒有那麼配合這個確實是還需要再 我們再找他們來開會"},{"start":278.608,"end":298.014,"text":"所以如果這些平台不配合的時候食藥署有什麼更積極的方式嗎?根本報告其實是這樣子平台的管理是一件事情因為它是涉及到就是資訊提供跟廣告的問題但是不管怎麼樣最後會有真實的實際的貨品會進來"},{"start":301.589,"end":315.479,"text":"對所以這些沒有經過查案登記的剛剛我提到這類的食品的話那事實上他一旦提供就就是已經違法那我是認為因為在在這個"},{"start":317.56,"end":334.492,"text":"平台處理一定有困難度有些架設在國外我們也沒有辦法直接從那邊去做取締如果是在國內我們倒是可以要求他下架"},{"start":335.293,"end":363.249,"text":"但是不管怎麼樣這種違規的產品如果到了消費者的手裡的話其實就很容易會造成傷害所以我們是希望我們會要求食藥署這邊就提高檢舉因為一定是內部人才容易找得到說他問題也比較容易能夠掌握說他這些商品到底跑到哪裡去"},{"start":365.283,"end":379.13,"text":"主要這個不管是檢舉查緝這個我想這個比重專注度我都希望我們在這個過去比較難抓到的這些我們要加強"},{"start":383.072,"end":406.099,"text":"過去監察委員林國明以及王立正委員他們在2021年10月有針對違法廣告產品不斷危害國人健康以及消費者權益有糾正了衛福部那面對這個監察院的糾正食藥署分別在2022年的8月還有2024年的1月有修正了食品安全衛生管理法第45條規定廣告處理原則"},{"start":408.72,"end":426.609,"text":"那希望透過這個加權的事項加重這個採取的力道嚇阻違規食品的廣告那現在的問題是在於就是說網路媒體他是非常快速的蓬勃發展那就像我剛剛先前有針對這個衛福部應該是說"},{"start":429.751,"end":451.701,"text":"上一屆本席也針對衛福部官員肖像被盜用的違規藥品廣告那我也質詢了幾次那最後衛福部也只能就是說很無奈表示說這些廣告IP位置都在國外查不到發不到那無法要求下架來回應我們那所以我想要請教部長如果"},{"start":452.481,"end":473.397,"text":"食藥署的這個加權事項加重採取的力道到最後都只能罰到廣播電視還有這個購物頻道的這些等等的媒體那這是不是變相我們有在鼓勵說業者以後都用國外的IP位置來做廣告"},{"start":474.538,"end":498.565,"text":"因為那個罰到的都是在國內有繳稅的嘛那反而在國外這些違法的罰不到以後大家都倒掉了業績不好然後都跑到國外去國外的這些產品的話他要送到國內給個別的消費者的時候他一定會中間有一個中間商因為他不太可能說直接從國外然後經由這一個"},{"start":500.345,"end":505.089,"text":"所以我剛剛提到就是我們希望就是說經由這個檢舉然後來做去查獲這樣子那就可以找得到因為這些實際上的商品是實際存在的"},{"start":526.124,"end":552.17,"text":"一旦讓我們破獲破獲之後的話那在處罰上面的話是蠻重的就剛剛委員提到的所以因為主要是這個監察院這個檢舉其實他也有提到就是說國內各類新興媒體持續蓬勃發展那違規食品廣告手法不斷翻新以佔各媒體廣告的這個總違規件數近六成之網站食品廣告"},{"start":553.23,"end":576.628,"text":"監控強度卻不及廣播、電視等傳統媒體所以我剛剛也點出這個問題啊那所以就是說針對這些新興的媒體那特別是IP位置在國外的部分那剛剛部長有特別講我們就是加強這個檢舉的部分那我也希望這些專漏洞的這些國外在IP我們是不是"},{"start":577.929,"end":601.124,"text":"可以就是說我也希望當然你們人力有限我也了解但是我希望說是不是我們可以就大家專注在這個部分因為確實現在大家都上蝦皮去看我覺得這些問題是比我們這個國內容易抓到這個要難度高一點但也比較嚴重啦所以我在這邊特別點出這個問題"},{"start":602.225,"end":628.397,"text":"所以我們的意思就是說不要太過執著在那個要去查廣告而是必須要查實體實體的東西查才比較有機會去查得到那這個如果透過這個檢舉讓我們查到我們可以把這些處罰的這個金額的話的一部分都要當成這個檢舉獎金那這樣子的檢舉獎金的額度就會很高"},{"start":629.568,"end":646.735,"text":"好,那可以來鼓勵民眾來做檢舉。好,那謝謝部長的回應。那我們也給食藥署加油啦。大家辛苦。那希望說我提的這個專注在,可以更專注在這邊。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149280","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149280","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd5f41906e49345d85e0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a68401a8fd86e0fba65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"12:40:25 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Plus他們拍一個藝能這樣的一個韓劇就投資了"},{"start":48.577,"end":71.987,"text":"5百億韓環我算了一下大概是11億台幣那麼另外Netflix就是網飛它因為黑暗榮耀的成功也是一個韓劇那麼呢現在呢為他們帶來的收益讓他們未來接下來要投資至少超過25億美元在韓劇的拍攝換算一下今天的匯率大概至少有700"},{"start":73.564,"end":76.967,"text":"780幾億,言下之意就是對臺灣來講臺灣下一個世代的護國神山會不會是文創我們不知道但是來下一張我們來看一下以臺灣文創的產值來看的話在2022年的時候只有4300億但是以上個禮拜公佈的2022年度已經來到了1.09兆但是"},{"start":97.283,"end":116.197,"text":"我想問一下就是主委你怎麼來看臺灣文創的發展當現在全球都在用錢來砸錢製造高品質的文創的時候那麼臺灣的文創產業要怎麼樣注入新活水因為就我所了解目前的所謂的文創上市櫃的家數來講只有一家必應然後上櫃25家新櫃是10家"},{"start":124.382,"end":136.588,"text":"主委你知道上市的這一家必應創造是什麼時候上市的嗎?抱歉我請您知道我不太清楚我想這個證交所應該有資料對不對?請走,必應創造"},{"start":137.659,"end":162.069,"text":"知道嗎?我不是記得很清楚大概3、4年前吧?對,因為其實你們在去年的12月20號的時候其實有針對文創產業作為一些投資體檢以及相關上市櫃的一些說明尤其是創新版的這個部分我來告訴主委我查到的資料是2018年2018年的2月我們現在已經查到2024年了"},{"start":166.411,"end":180.988,"text":"那麼言下之意這5、6年當中沒有其他的文創的公司能夠有機會再上市那麼到底我們的證交所跟櫃買中心是要如何來扮演這個投資市場的敲門磚當全球現在都在透過"},{"start":182.009,"end":197.544,"text":"資金的挹注文創的時候那麼我想請問一下主委或者是證交所我們知道其實都有所謂的創新版我們也希望創新版能夠扮演這個領頭羊的角色但是過程當中為什麼不盡理想原因到底在哪裡"},{"start":199.69,"end":216.717,"text":"其實我覺得我們絕對沒有排除任何的產業那我們都希望各種產業有發展潛力都能夠在我們的交易所能夠上市那我是不是請簡董經理說明一下你們在招商過程中有沒有特別注意"},{"start":217.649,"end":231.069,"text":"我們在創新的這一個部分其實我們去年的成績還不錯我們已經有10家創新的公司已經掛牌市值大概有1500億左右"},{"start":232.992,"end":258,"text":"那持續有一些創新的公司他符合上市的規定那就可以來掛牌那另外交易所也對於比如說除了電子產業以外我們希望有一些新的產業能夠出來比如說數位雲端啦比如說生技啦比如說運動休閒類的整個類別我們都有在鼓勵他們來"},{"start":258.82,"end":283.933,"text":"因為我的時間有限委員這樣好不好我們如果委員可以我們可以多跟文化部聯繫一下看看他有沒有學的需要扶植的這種產業我們來看看怎麼樣在交易所能夠或者其他適合的場地能夠募資這樣可以嗎好其實事實上就是說我們都知道就是我非常關心這一塊那麼證交所在有關於創新版或者是在櫃板中心有關上櫃的部分所以現在"},{"start":284.833,"end":305.384,"text":"其實很多的文創業者或者是文創產業他們當然希望能夠透過市場資金挹注讓他們能夠壯大但是以我自己來做的這個比較就會發現在創新版的部分在財務的條件上面相對的是比較寬鬆要上櫃是比較有更多的要求但是在投資人的部分反而是上櫃"},{"start":306.725,"end":335.245,"text":"的部分沒有對投資有太多的要求流動性也就會比較高所以在這樣的部分當中如何讓這些所謂需要資金導入或者是需要能夠有機會進入上市或者是新櫃的部分的時候到底他們應該要諮詢誰我想這是對於很多的創從事創意或者是投資文創的人他們其實是不了解的那麼對他們來說他們要如何來徵詢這些答案呢"},{"start":336.581,"end":365.479,"text":"我覺得因為創新版畢竟它的風險一般的版要高所以對投資人有一個限制可是去年已經政經局已經調降了它的這個資格了那委員是不是這樣子我可以也許由您來指導我們起交易所、購買中心跟相關文創產業瞭解他們的現在的情況那現在的這種創新版跟那個購買中心的這個上櫃版的這些條件還有什麼可以再去做調整的"},{"start":365.959,"end":374.401,"text":"好,我所知道的是我曾經也希望證交所跟這個文策院能夠有多一點的聯動包括你們去年12月20號曾經有公開一個說明會而且這樣的說明會也要持續是不是會後可以給我一份報告包括去年12月20號當時說明會的狀況以及後續的狀況因為我認為其實對於文創業者一定希望能夠在不一樣的層次的市場當中能夠獲得更多的資金活水"},{"start":391.886,"end":398.751,"text":"但是這些資金回水要怎麼樣正確的導入甚至於讓他們有機會能夠進入創新版或者是能夠上櫃對他們來講恐怕他們需要的是更多的是輔助我當然知道金管會是屬於一個金融監理但是在監理的同時如何能夠也賦予這樣的讓這個所謂能夠讓產業蓬勃然後能夠協助讓整個所謂的市場能夠健全我想這個也是金管會的責任之一"},{"start":421.766,"end":422.126,"text":"財政委員提示"}]}},{"id":"149279","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149279","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddd42c4d5f79e6cc4fe0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a6c7e4384474ecec015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:32:32 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很好 非常好下一頁結果你們在採取的說明書裡面我看到的中國信託他們幹的事情不是只有違反內心內控喔如果是只有房子洗錢的規定沒有做好那個是抽象制度性的問題嘛表示我們市錢預防的功能沒有做好控制沒有做好但"},{"start":221.537,"end":233.554,"text":"他是實際上面行員、金融機構行員參與犯罪組織去詐騙、去洗錢但我看了金管會的財主書主委可能認為罰他們兩千萬很重"},{"start":237.771,"end":254.811,"text":"我可能認為罰他們兩千萬很重但如果以中國信託他們一年的獲利額剛剛四千委員就質詢了光到收手續費的部分就超過四百億了罰個兩千萬會不會痛有沒有用社會有公平但我現在分兩個層次來請教"},{"start":257.014,"end":285.487,"text":"第一個層次是這麼嚴重的行為你們為什麼在發財處書的時候相關的事實相關的行為沒有辦法像美國的監理機構一樣具細米疑具體的把它寫清楚它是屬於辦理客戶零過申請調高銀行網路轉帳及ATM提領日限而作業所涉缺失嗎是這樣子輕描淡寫就把它的不應該的地方"},{"start":287.308,"end":291.033,"text":"這可責性的行為,這樣算有充分描述嗎?"},{"start":305.669,"end":323.477,"text":"想法我沒有在苛責金管會的同仁因為這種立稿的方式我們大概寫了一二十年長的都是這個樣子不是你當主委才變這樣如果是你當主委才變這樣那一定是你的責任嘛但我給金管會的建議是什麼去看一看"},{"start":324.659,"end":343.452,"text":"外國的監理機關針對這麼離譜的事情事實是要把它寫得很清楚他們到底做錯了什麼事情讓社會大眾知道這樣子的採取才有意義嘛第二個部分公罰錢有沒有用罰錢其實是罰誰的錢是罰全體股東的錢嗎"},{"start":345.874,"end":367.709,"text":"但是那些出具內資內控聲明書的人從法針到集合到封控到最後高階的經理人每一個人都簽了字結果根本沒有做好嘛我現在講的還不是只有這個個案喔從通案到個案比率最高一年一萬多個人頭賬戶"},{"start":369.43,"end":393.997,"text":"具體的個案目前被抓到的有銀行員參與詐騙死罰兩千萬能夠有效後組嗎?主委你覺得呢委員所以我們今年1月14號我們通過銀行責任地圖不是說將來發生問題只要罰錢明年1月1號就會實施相關連帶的主管如果你的責任是督導內控防止洗錢發生問題你都要負連帶的責任是"},{"start":394.777,"end":411.416,"text":"現在的銀行法61條之一對於內積內控如果沒有做好的話那顯然什麼?顯然不是只有罰錢嗎?他本來61條之一是不是授權金管會可以做下面的這些處理部分停止部分的業務啊?有"},{"start":412.565,"end":430.211,"text":"對嗎?是都可以考量那以協助詐騙集團這麼嚴重出的內控聲明書明顯虛偽不實就沒做到嘛只打兩千萬齁我請金管會回去再思考一下再思考一下是不是未來在面對"},{"start":431.991,"end":453.322,"text":"因為銀行他們前面的內機內控沒有做好甚至有參與詐騙不是只有罰錢了事該負責任的人員同時要就責主委這個方向您贊不贊成我們會朝委員指導的方向去研究OK好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢接著我們請游浩委員游浩委員游浩委員不在接著我們請林楚敏委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"149278","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149278","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddb778e85327fdfce7e0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a6e2b1819fafab4f6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:25:11 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行政署去有處分阿但是他因為他一天就下架了所以就沒有辦法處分到所以所以但是現在又改成實名制之後如果你明知故犯再上來的話那當然就會受到跨部會真的是要這個積極去面對這個問題打雜辦公室也好我也要求打雜辦公室人力預算規模都要增加"},{"start":357.816,"end":359.176,"text":"在今天的報告中我們特別有提出來在這個"},{"start":388.086,"end":398.153,"text":"在33頁特別有強調我們要督導工會將這個OTP納入這個相關的時間到這個我必須遵守這個質詢的這個會議的規則我作為這個這個新進立委的這個榜樣所以這個提供書面資料給我時間到我就應該要要這個尊重不能暢所欲言講到這天分地安這個"},{"start":415.526,"end":417.528,"text":"立法委員致歉新市委也要尊重行政部門謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149277","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149277","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd79173d1f72d7f748e0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a6dab12b64c84673915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"12:17:39 - 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宣布批准了比特幣ETF現貨交易1月10日一共有11檔比特幣ETF申請全部獲得通過這對於喜愛投資美股或虛擬資產的民眾來說是一大樂事但是很遺憾國內券商在1月23日發出公告表示收到金管會的通知"},{"start":158.032,"end":185.774,"text":"只能透過副委託賣出連結虛擬貨幣的現貨以及期貨相關商業不可以新增委託買進受到影響的由美國以及香港市場約21檔ETF我知道目前國內的法規不允許比特幣ETF自己在台上市但是禁止國內的民眾用副委託官方推薦的方式來購買美國比特幣ETF在投資界引起了不小的反彈想請主委簡短說明"},{"start":187.876,"end":193.467,"text":"目前禁止民眾付委託購買美國比特幣ETF的原因到底是什麼?"},{"start":194.632,"end":219.685,"text":"現在的負委託我們允許券商能夠提供投資人投資負委託的商品都是政企局核定過的所以如果比特幣ETF為什麼不能買因為它的波動力高沒有內涵價值我想大家都有時候能想一句話不好意思我打斷您投資一定有風險基金投資有賺有賠如果價格波動大且風險高可以作為禁止理由"},{"start":220.405,"end":234.545,"text":"金管會是不是應該定期公布各種負委託美股、衍生性金融商品的投資風險,並且根據排名將風險高的逐一禁止呢?美商超微的股票在前三個月漲了200%,是不是也要禁止啊?"},{"start":235.424,"end":260.675,"text":"委員這分兩點跟您報告第一點我想您是專家虛擬資產沒有內涵價值第二點我們沒有說完全不行我們請券商公會在半年之內就4月底之前提出如果富委託要納入現貨ETF它的配套措施跟您的方案比特幣ETF嗎半年內嗎是好比特幣沒有內涵價值這個我想請教主委這是您的主觀認定還是做過調查報告"},{"start":261.975,"end":285.339,"text":"內涵價值是大家有沒有做調查報告各國監理機關都是這樣認為的如果有做調查報告的話各國監理所以他認為他同意啊所以他上了ETF啊美國的報告委員打擾你美國證管會不是自願他是法院裁決他的禁止是無效的我想這個是不應該是做主觀認定的齁如果有做調查報告希望一個月內交到我們的辦公室可以嗎"},{"start":286.943,"end":312.46,"text":"因為比特幣的產生就跟實體經濟沒有關係這是您的個人看法還是調查這是從理論跟文獻中我們應該依據您的個人看法來決定民眾要買什麼不買什麼嗎我們會後跟委員請教好希望我們可以得到相關的報告為什麼對不起這個主委我為什麼這麼這個情緒上這個非常非常的投入這樣的一個議題是因為"},{"start":314.801,"end":333.815,"text":"大家真的非常有興趣但是如果我們沒有一個官方附委託購買的過程跟方法反而會讓許多想買比特幣ETF的民眾翻牆透過海外的券商來購買如此政府更加難以掌握民眾對美國比特幣ETF的投資情形"},{"start":334.776,"end":362.719,"text":"券商也少了手續費的收入民眾如果跟國外券商發生了投資糾紛還要自行承擔風險甚至可能會不慎掉入詐騙的陷阱毫無保障這對政府跟民眾來說可以說是三輸甚至是全輸啦我想今晚會直接的粗暴禁止是不是有過度限制人民基本自由的嫌疑退一步來講如果直接禁止我想我們非常期待主委這邊來提出相關的報告"},{"start":363.7,"end":392.06,"text":"同時也告訴我們到底解禁多久之後可能會開放否則接下來假設虛擬貨幣ETF越來越多元啊前兩天又上了一檔啊以太幣的現貨ETF可能也要出現啊金管會要如何因應呢我想我最後一個問題啊今天這個第一次質詢拜託也再借一分鐘好主席謝謝我想啊假設民眾真的很想購買啊現在啊意願如此高張主委會建議民眾透過什麼樣的管道購買勒"},{"start":394.451,"end":405.484,"text":"委員我跟您報告也許我講的話您不會很高興包括美國新加坡這些監理機關其實對民眾投入虛擬資產都是持相對保留跟審慎的態度的"},{"start":407.844,"end":432.236,"text":"好我想相關保留跟審慎的態度我們希望透過調查報告來瞭解而不是主委一個人的主觀意見這是其他監理機關包括MIS跟美國的OCC的監理機關的首長都對外做這種宣示的好我想禁止副委託不是最好的做法金管會應該保障民眾投資國外虛擬貨幣ETF的權益尤其是合規合法的虛擬貨幣ETF的權益謝謝主席"},{"start":433.677,"end":438.163,"text":"謝謝委員、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事"}]}},{"id":"149276","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149276","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddcd0c4a998545b8fce0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a666fd7484734a17d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"12:09:13 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有很多嘛金流是一個嘛那電信啊你能處理的是不是只有金流我們處理的是金流跟金融知識的這些教育部分主詐跟部分的市詐主詐部分就是屬於透過銀行的臨櫃或者說是轉帳這部分我們截阻金流"},{"start":142.674,"end":162.29,"text":"那所謂的網路詐騙或名人詐騙這個部分你認為為什麼沒有辦法有效的遏止?那這個其中的原因在哪?我跟您報告那個投資詐騙因為我們已經去年修《投信投顧法》70-1條對於在固定的社群網站平台上去給它下架"},{"start":162.93,"end":182.38,"text":"但是還有很多名人的這些詐騙案他有的不是在那個平台上比方在其他的社群媒體上這個其實需要大家一起在做努力的那其實我們也都包括我們這邊的交易所每天早上都在去搜尋這些網路上這些疑似詐騙的問題"},{"start":184.332,"end":213.108,"text":"所以你認為,照你的說法看來,你認為問題不在你這裡啊?我一直在問你說整個系統性的問題到底在哪裡?我們如果都不知道問題在哪裡,我們怎麼樣解決這個問題?報告委員,其實我絕對承擔金管會該負的責任,不然的話我不會用11頁的報告跟委員報告我們在打造方面做了哪些事情。我覺得那是我們要該負的責任,可是我要跟委員報告,這是一個基本的問題。"},{"start":214.489,"end":232.516,"text":"銀行要去做任何阻詐的事情他第一個必須要有法據第二他也不能夠影響正常的企業跟個人金融中介的功能這兩個不同的價值是需要去做前衡的就一方面如果我為了限制打仗所有的金流轉帳都嚴格限制他"},{"start":233.436,"end":247.329,"text":"更長的時間這個也會影響到金融經濟的發展所以這裡面的法據還有整個做一個權衡這都是我們我想在跨部會討論的時候要去做權衡的再跟您報告還有其實剛才"},{"start":249.343,"end":267.094,"text":"也有委員提到金融消費者的保護的方面其實我也他前面委員講的是你財閥的金額不高其實我知道所有的金融業者他們能夠請最好的法律顧問所以在法律方面就法治面而言"},{"start":267.874,"end":297.217,"text":"絕對不會有很重大的問題可是重大的問題是在於消費者對於金融商品的不了解以及對於所有投資契約的不了解那所以怎麼樣子減少這樣子認知上面的落差以及減少所謂我們數位的落差也好以及中高零金融消費者對於這些投資商品以及數位落差我相信"},{"start":298.057,"end":319.347,"text":"這個部分是金管會我認為你該做而沒做的不應該只就法律層面而是應該就整個消費者跟投資在怎麼樣的認知上面能夠減少這個落差才能有效的遏止金融消費者的所有的問題啊是不是"},{"start":320.165,"end":344.313,"text":"委員您這番指示其實您真是專家我跟您報告為什麼要做金融監理一個就是資訊不對稱就是一個就是系統風險所以資訊不對稱本來就是金管會成立的目的之一您看看今天我寫的報告我們有做多少金融的教育跟知識至於說前面委員說罰款金額逐漸降低我跟委員報告我們現在財閥不是只有罰款我們有停職我們有解職"},{"start":345.433,"end":358.724,"text":"我們有減薪我們還有扣資本額上禮拜我們做了一個禮專的那個裁罰他扣他資本額是30多億喔所以其實我們的裁罰不能只是從罰款的金額去看他的高低"},{"start":360.104,"end":379.843,"text":"今天是第一次委員會再跟昭緯見一分鐘我想了解一下現在我們國內的超額儲蓄創新高不只是企業部門還有我們的個人部門也是創新高那你看在超額儲蓄創新高的時候會不會"},{"start":381.314,"end":403.167,"text":"就是說我們的成交量股市的成交量因為大家不願意為什麼會有超額儲蓄他不願意直接投資嘛國內的投資的前景不看好的情況下可能就做金融投資那股市呢股市有沒有可能未來的日交易量你看是多少4千億還是5千億"},{"start":404.83,"end":425.141,"text":"沒有我們今年預估的每天的交易量比去年有增加了那其實主要也是因為整個包括零股的交易投資人現在很多年輕人願意投入臺灣的股市對臺灣的資本市場有信心所以我覺得這後面有有他基本上理性的判斷在裡面當然股市還是多風險還是要注意風險的"},{"start":426.209,"end":450.429,"text":"那今年股市會不會上兩萬點?報告委員其實監理機關不太適合去評估這個到多少點到今天是上漲那上兩萬點會不會是一個風險的地方?你講啊,是不是?報告委員其實我們你金融監理機關就是評估風險的單位可是我們不會去評估這個股價到多少這個不是監理機關那我是說如果到兩萬點是不是一個風險點?"},{"start":451.61,"end":464.938,"text":"要看這個股市到2萬點後面的理由是什麼?是有具體的利多的消息、正面的消息、資本面的改變?還是只是因為資金充裕的問題?那如果只是資金充裕的問題,會不會是一個過熱點?"},{"start":470.225,"end":490.225,"text":"這個熱跟不熱其實不是監理機關可以去隨便去做不好意思我知道您是很審慎的問我可是我不能夠隨便就這樣子做判斷還是需要有一些分析也許會後可以跟您再多做請益好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝謝一鋒委員的質詢接著我們請葛如君委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"149275","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149275","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd6a747e6878aebae5e0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a676aa520af6b9da4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:58:35 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12:08:59","影片長度":"00:10:24","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":624,"end_time":"2024-03-04T12:08:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:58:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":718,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時58分）我可不可以請主委？"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員午安。"],["李委員彥秀：午安，主委辛苦了！剛才王世堅委員質詢的消費者「告」跟「知」，其實我覺得我們確實要花一點心思去做這一塊。","好，接下來我要問的問題其實也是長期以來，包括上星期你到我辦公室來的時候我跟你溝通過的，就是我們現在詐騙的問題。詐騙的議題我相信在臺灣社會的民眾，包括我們民間基金會，我們草根影響力文教基金會委託TVBS去年所做的民調當中，我們看到有超過五成的民眾對於政府打詐的表現事實上是不滿意的，超過八成的民眾認為臺灣現在的法律對於詐騙犯的刑責事實上是太輕，然後超過七成的民眾擔心詐騙的犯罪氾濫會造成我們現在的國安問題。","好，主委，從金管會這一次的業務報告當中，我有觀察到幾個數據，我們來看這些數據，包括112年對於詐騙案的攔截件數是1萬1,300件，比照111年，112年是增加了3,321件。那112年攔截的金額是76億左右，75.89億，比111年增加了33.48億元。主委，這些數據的呈現，代表的意義就是我們攔截的件數增加42%，攔截的金額增加79%，但是在你的工作報告當中，我看到你是用「成效卓著」這四個字去表現出你現在攔截的件數也好，112年跟111年相比，攔截的金額也好，件數也好，看起來都比較多，你用「成效卓著」這四個字，我個人是有一點意見啦！你個人覺得這樣的數字你滿意嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我跟您報告兩個部分，第一個，我們是用「顯著」，我們沒有用「卓著」，因為比例是高一點，但是我跟您報告，您指示的沒有錯啦！其實詐騙有很多介面，這邊跟您報告的第一項只是從臨櫃，假如我的客戶去臨櫃要做一些事情被銀行堵到了這個部分，可是還有很多是轉帳，約定轉帳，這些都不在這個績效之內。"],["李委員彥秀：好，主委，用「成效卓著」，你剛剛講了，不管是……"],["黃主任委員天牧：「顯著」啦！我沒有寫「卓著」。"],["李委員彥秀：「顯著」也好，「卓著」也好，我覺得這些數字背後代表的意義是我們臺灣現在詐騙犯罪的問題越來越嚴重。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["李委員彥秀：你同意我的說法嘛！其實金額、件數非常多，這個母體這麼大，相對地看起來你金額非常的多，但是另外一層代表的意義是現在的詐騙越來越嚴重，而金管會自己統計的數據也顯示，從去年4月到11月當中，我先講一下警政署的統計，在2020年的詐騙件數是2.3萬件，2022年2.9萬件，2023年從1月到11月總共是3.5萬件，所以金額也每一年創新高，從42.5億元到去年的11月是79億元，創歷史的新高。金管會自己的數字也顯示出4月到11月總共有1萬5,511件非法的投資廣告，平均每個月有將近2,000件的詐騙廣告被檢舉。","主委，這個數字其實也代表我們現在在法規上，雖然看起來金管會的督導很用心，但是犯罪的數字事實上是非常地氾濫，所以我剛才也看到前幾位委員在質詢當中有提到，目前金管會有兩個手段，對不對？一個是在網路上我們可以要求儘速地下架，在這些平臺當中儘速地下架；另外一個就是實名制的管理，這兩個手段對於詐騙的氾濫是不是最有效的工具？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我先跟您報告，我們以後不會用「成效顯著」這四個字，我們會虛心接受委員的指導。"],["李委員彥秀：對，那就代表現在詐騙氾濫非常嚴重，也難怪國人對於……"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個不能這樣量，會變成……"],["李委員彥秀：詐騙的問題不滿意，政府處理的不滿意嘛！這個是事實嘛！我們兩個不用在這邊爭辯嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：好。另外就是實名制是一個重點，當然我覺得金融教育也很重要，就是投資人確實要特別注意風險跟利潤其實是共同存在的。"],["李委員彥秀：好，主委，實名制這件事情其實行政院跟你這邊也努力了一年左右的時間，目前Google跟Meta，今年1月我也看到Meta已經答應要落實實名制，那Google我從你的業務報告當中，看起來它是沒有答應，但是我剛剛聽到前幾位委員……"],["黃主任委員天牧：剛才有委員詢問，我們證期局同仁說Google應該已經有同意了，是Meta它的系統改到6月。"],["李委員彥秀：Meta改到6月份，那Google呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：Google……"],["高副局長晶萍：Google已經……"],["李委員彥秀：可不可以透過麥克風回應我？因為九成民眾的平臺是在Google上面哦！"],["高副局長晶萍：Google已經開始實名制了，那我們有……"],["李委員彥秀：已經開始了嗎？什麼時候開始？為什麼在工作報告當中沒有寫？"],["高副局長晶萍：可能沒有特別去提到這個，但是我們跟Google、Meta溝通的結果，Google已經開始實施，那Meta是因為它整個系統要改全球的系統，所以它6月就可以上線。"],["李委員彥秀：所以Google已經全部實名制？"],["高副局長晶萍：對。"],["李委員彥秀：從什麼時候開始？"],["高副局長晶萍：應該是之前我們修法完之後沒多久它就配合改過，我們沒有特別去問他們實施的日期。"],["李委員彥秀：好，所以Meta是6月份。主委，無論是實名制也好，或儘速地發現到有詐騙的網路廣告也好，我們都應該儘速地要求它下架，現在Google要求是多少？一天之內？"],["黃主任委員天牧：一天之內要下架。我們會通報警政署，那它要下架，如果不下架就會被警政署裁罰。"],["李委員彥秀：我們有沒有裁罰過？"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為它通常一天就下架了，就沒有被裁罰，因為裁罰是內政部警政署在處理。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，一天之內沒有裁罰，但是你也知道這就是貓抓老鼠，因為有一個假帳號，你下架一個，它馬上又有數萬個、數千個在背後stand by等著，這就是現在詐騙手法日新月異，所以我不知道你對於一天下架你滿不滿意啦！依我的廣告經驗，我們看到一些知名的媒體人，包括陳文茜也好，謝金河也好，于美人也好，包括曹興誠，都有人用他們的名義在網路上、在臉書上、在IG上做一些詐騙的廣告行為，這些都有。而且我算了一下，這些推播的量其實出現了至少半個月以上，我的辦公室他們稍微整理一下，都是超過半個月以上，那又不知道增加了多少被害人在裡頭，所以我要強調的是，我覺得源頭管理非常非常地重要，無論是Google或Meta的管理上，我覺得是不是一天之內或者是接下來它有沒有其他的高風險，我們有什麼樣的處理機制，我覺得應該要想辦法落實。詐騙是臺灣人民心中的痛，被騙的每一分錢都是民眾非常辛苦的血汗錢，我希望在這一塊上，金管會能夠更努力地做守門人的角色。","另外，您到我辦公室那一天有提到，現在行政院針對詐騙有成立一個專案小組，上次您提到政委在處理，因為這是跨部會的問題。"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，一直就有，有一位政委負責督導。"],["李委員彥秀：什麼時候這個案子會出來，我們可以看到現在民進黨政府從金管到警政署跨部會的有更具體的合作方向？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，包括現在規劃可能在考慮是不是要打詐專法，都是目前在研究的方向。"],["李委員彥秀：所以打詐專法什麼時候會推出來？內容是什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我跟委員報告，因為這個不是金管會負責主政的，可能是其他部會。"],["李委員彥秀：雖然不是你主政，但是你在裡面的角色也非常重要。"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，我們一起參與提供意見。"],["李委員彥秀：我不知道最後主政的會是哪一個單位，因為行政院可能也還沒有決定主責單位是誰，你認為不是你，說不定最後就是你，所以主委，我要建議的是，它是一個跨部會的合作，我們後面一起來努力打詐的問題，但是我覺得不管是誰主政，每一個人的角色都非常重要，所以我非常期待這個打詐專法可以及早提出來。至於主要的內容是什麼，我也希望有機會跟各部會進行更多的溝通，對於後面相關的監理單位，我們希望有機會做更多的互動，也提出更多的建議，這樣子後續的打詐我覺得會有更具體的成效，好嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，我們會不定期向委員請益，聽聽您的高見，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢。","接著請謝衣鳯委員質詢，提醒列席委員的時間是5加1。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","葛如鈞","邱志偉","黃國昌","林楚茵","羅明才","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":269,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.1697187500000004,"end":4.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.46034375,"end":9.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.76784375,"end":107.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.53721875000001,"end":111.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.97971875,"end":128.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.31034375000002,"end":133.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.06909375,"end":139.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.17784375000002,"end":144.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.64971875,"end":146.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.43846875,"end":156.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.23846875,"end":161.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.54159375,"end":161.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.55846875,"end":161.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.57534375,"end":161.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.59221875,"end":161.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.81159375000001,"end":161.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.90846875,"end":168.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.68034375000002,"end":167.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.59534375,"end":234.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.31909375,"end":256.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.83471875000004,"end":266.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.28034375000004,"end":268.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.33909375,"end":270.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.50346875,"end":273.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.24534375,"end":283.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.58596875,"end":294.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.04096875,"end":289.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.77846875,"end":293.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.02721875000003,"end":295.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.89596875,"end":298.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.44846875,"end":308.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.91096875,"end":313.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.41221875,"end":333.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.29971875,"end":339.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.19721875000005,"end":342.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.72409375,"end":344.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.00659375000004,"end":351.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.16159375,"end":354.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.03471875,"end":354.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.46909375,"end":358.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.12721875,"end":356.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.96221875000003,"end":359.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.17284375,"end":373.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.63096875,"end":373.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.16659375,"end":376.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.23284375000003,"end":389.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.98659375,"end":392.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.00346875,"end":392.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.23971875,"end":392.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.32409375000003,"end":392.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start"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那主委我就從你這一次的今晚會的業務報告當中我有觀察到有幾個數據我們來看這些數據包括112年我們對於詐騙案的攔截件數是11300件"},{"start":74.719,"end":92.236,"text":"比照一百一十一年我們是一百一十二年我們是增加了三千三百二十一件那我們一百一十二年攔截的金額是七十六億左右七十五點八九億那比一百一十一年增加了三十三點四八億元"},{"start":93.377,"end":110.86,"text":"主委這些數據呈現代表的意義就是說我們攔截的件數增加42%攔截的金額增加79%但是在你的工作報告當中我看到你是用成效卓著這四個字"},{"start":112.288,"end":128.303,"text":"來去表現出我們現在你攔截的件數也好比112年比111跟112我們攔截的金額也好件數也好看起來都比較多你用成效著住這四個字"},{"start":129.744,"end":155.955,"text":"我個人是有一點意見啦你個人覺得這樣的數字你滿意嗎?報告委員那個我跟您兩個部分報告第一個我們是用顯著我們用左著因為比例是高一點但是我跟您報告您指示的沒有錯了其實詐騙有很多界面這邊跟您報告的第一項只是從臨櫃假如我的客戶去臨櫃我被要做一些事情被銀行堵到了這個部分可是還有很多是轉帳"},{"start":158.017,"end":177.23,"text":"約定轉帳,這些都不在這個績效之內的。好,主委,用成效著住,顯著也好,著住也好,我覺得這些數字背後代表的意義是我們臺灣現在詐騙犯罪的問題越來越嚴重,你同意我的說法嗎?"},{"start":178.411,"end":187.78,"text":"其實金額件數非常多這個母體這麼大相對的看起來你金額非常的多但是另外一層代表意義是我們現在詐騙越來越嚴重而我們金管會自己統計的數據從去年4月到11月當中"},{"start":193.866,"end":200.812,"text":"我們的數據也顯示說包括我們我先講一下警政署的統計在2020年的我們的詐騙的件數是2.3萬件2022年2.9萬件2023年從1月到11月總共是3.5萬件所以我們的金額"},{"start":213.181,"end":231.201,"text":"每一年創新高從42.5億元到去年的11月是79億元創歷史的新高那今晚會自己的數字也顯示出4月到11月我們總共有15511件非法的投資廣告平均每個月有將近2000件的詐騙廣告被檢取主委"},{"start":236.006,"end":256.002,"text":"這個數字其實也代表說我們現在在法規上雖然看起來我們金管會的督導很用心但是我們犯罪的數字事實上是非常的氾濫所以我剛才也看到前幾位委員的質詢當中也有提到我們目前金管會有兩個手段"},{"start":257.364,"end":273.622,"text":"一個是在網路上我們可以要求競速的下架在這些平台當中競速的下架另外一個就是實名制的管理這兩個手段對於詐騙的氾濫是不是最有效的工具"},{"start":276.888,"end":295.234,"text":"我先跟您報告我們以後不會用成效顯著這四個字我們會虛心接受委員的指導那你就代表現在詐騙氾濫非常嚴重也難怪我們對於詐騙的問題不滿意政府處理的不滿意嘛這個是事實嘛我們兩個不用在這邊爭辯嘛那另外就是"},{"start":297.163,"end":313.36,"text":"實名制是一個重點那當然我覺得金融教育也很重要就是要投資人確實要特別注意這個風險跟利潤其實是是存在共同存在的好那主委實名制這一件事情其實我們行政院"},{"start":314.485,"end":314.645,"text":"主席"},{"start":345.083,"end":359.448,"text":"可不可以透過麥克風回應我?因為九成的民眾那個平台是在Google上面喔Google已經開始實名制了已經開始了嗎?什麼時候開始?為什麼在工作報告當中沒有寫?"},{"start":361.632,"end":389.403,"text":"可能沒有特別去提到這個但是我們跟Google Meta溝通的結果Google已經開始實施那Meta是因為說它整個系統要改全球的系統所以Google已經全部實名制從什麼時候開始應該是之前我們修法完之後沒多久它應該就配合改過了我們沒有特別去問他們實施的日期"},{"start":392.042,"end":420.123,"text":"好 那所以是Meta 6月份好 呃 主委 無論是實名制也好或競速的我們發現到有詐騙的這個網路上的廣告也好我們都應該競速的要求他下架現在Google要求是 呃 多少 一天之內一天之內要下架如果沒有 我們會通報警政署那他要下架 那如果不下架就會被警政署裁罰我們有沒有裁罰過"},{"start":421.674,"end":426.794,"text":"因為他通常一天就下架了就沒有被裁罰因為裁罰是內政部警政署在處理"},{"start":428.459,"end":451.395,"text":"主委你認為就是說沒有裁罰一天之內沒有裁罰但是你也知道就是說這就是貓抓老鼠因為有一個假帳號也好你下架一個他馬上又有數萬個數千個在背後stand by等著這就是現在詐騙手法日新月異所以我不知道你對於一天下架你滿不滿意以我的廣告經驗我們看到包括"},{"start":452.496,"end":466.707,"text":"這些知名的媒體人包括陳文茜也好、謝金河也好、余美人也好包括曹金城都有人用他們的名義在網路上、在臉書上、在IG上做一些詐騙的行為廣告"},{"start":469.667,"end":490.617,"text":"這些都有而且我算了一下就是說這些推波的量其實出現了至少都半個月以上我的辦公室他們稍微整理一下都超過半個月以上那又不知道增加了多少被害人在裡頭所以我要強調的就是說我覺得源頭管理非常非常的重要無論是Google或Meta的管理上我覺得"},{"start":492.138,"end":509.572,"text":"一天是不是一天之內或者是接下來他有沒有其他的我們高風險的我們有什麼樣的處理的機制我覺得應該要想辦法落實詐騙是臺灣人民心中的痛每片的每一分錢都是我們民眾的我們民眾非常辛苦血汗錢我希望在這一塊"},{"start":510.973,"end":539.918,"text":"金管會上能夠更努力的在做守門人的角色另外您到我辦公室那一天有提到說我們現在行政院針對詐騙有成立一個專案小組上次您提到政委在處理因為這是跨部會的問題有一位政委負責督導什麼時候這個案子會出來我們可以看到我們現在民進黨政府從金管到警政署跨部會的有更具體的合作方向"},{"start":540.819,"end":556.246,"text":"有包括現在規劃要可能在考慮是不是打詐專法都是目前在研究的方向所以打詐專法什麼時候會推出來內容是什麼我跟委員報告因為這個不是金管會負責主政的可能要從可能是其他部會"},{"start":558.184,"end":579.958,"text":"雖然不是你主政但是你在裡面的角色也非常重要我們一起參與提供意見所以我不知道最後主政的會是哪個單位因為行政院可能也還沒有決定主責單位是誰你認為不是你說不定最後就是你所以主委我要建議的是它是一個跨部會的合作我們後面一起來努力打仗的問題"},{"start":581.019,"end":609.147,"text":"但是我覺得每一個人的角色不管是誰主政都非常重要所以我非常期待這個打詐的專法可以及早提出來那主要的內容是什麼我也希望有機會跟各部會做進行更多的溝通後面的我們的監理單位相關的我們希望有機會做更多的互動也提出更多的建議這樣子後續的打詐我覺得會有更具體的成效好嗎"},{"start":609.907,"end":620.752,"text":"是,我們會不定期跟委員請議,聽聽您的高見。好,謝謝各位。謝謝。謝謝李燕秀委員的質詢。接著我們請謝玉鳳委員質詢,提醒列行委員的時間是5加1。"}]}},{"id":"149274","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149274","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd414923b6cac2fe60e0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a6f1150b2f0eab0c655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:45:32 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11:58:29","影片長度":"00:12:57","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":777,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:58:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:45:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":690,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時45分）謝謝主席，我請金管會黃主委跟銀行局長、保險局長。"],["主席：有請銀行局莊局長。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，委員你好。"],["主席：還有保險局局長。"],["王委員世堅：各位午安。黃主委，你學有專精，我也跟你初步談過，我先不跟你談，我倒是想先看看銀行局長、保險局長的廬山真面目。古有羅賓漢、廖添丁劫富濟貧，今有銀行局、保險局劫貧濟富，莫名其妙！銀行應該善盡保護存款戶，他們要善盡這個職責才對，結果不是！銀行局、保險局竟然任令這些銀行金控公司、保險公司他們，我不客氣講四個字，「監守自盜」！用客戶的資料、個資，搜刮這些菜籃族、上班族、小資族、媽媽班，搜刮他們辛苦的血汗錢，要他們買基金，所謂幫他們理財，基金、債券大賺手續費！我不曉得銀行局、保險局你們到底管理得怎麼樣，我待會一一跟你們講一些例子，看看你們是怎麼幹這個事情的，任令他們搜刮辛苦的小老百姓！","這幾年來社會財富兩極化，那麼有錢的越有錢就算了，多數的市民不但因為兩極化的結果，大家的財富縮水不打緊，這幾年疫情的關係又通貨膨脹，小市民過的生活是非常地辛苦，結果你看看這些金控公司，這14家金控公司除了不長進的新光以外，另外13家賺了3,652億，3,652億哦！最多的賺六百多億，平均下來，平均大概都賺百億以上，天啊！他們大賺數百億啊！我想保險局跟銀行局你們很清楚嘛！光是這些手續費占他們的收入，去年手續費2,598億，2,600億之多，天啊！","好，那你們管理得怎麼樣？好好地管理大家沒話講，照說銷售這些金融產品，最重要的是產品條件、風險說明，結果呢？我光舉這幾年，在你們的資料裡面，光2019到2023年，被檢舉金融商品的爭議有1,390件之多，1,390件哦！這在金融消費者保護法裡面很清楚，要充分揭露風險，那麼不充分揭露風險的話，有爭議的話，要處罰款耶！30萬以上到1,000萬耶！結果你們處得怎麼樣？兩位局長聽好哦！金融商品說明爭議這樣子經過評議以後，申訴人有理由的，被你們精挑細選篩檢之後說他有理由的也有97件，結果連1件都沒有送到金管會去裁處，這個是你們的評議委員會評議出來的，1,390件說至少這97件有重大爭議，結果連1件都沒有經過你們金管會裁處。","那金管會裁處了什麼？有啦！你們公開的資料說銀行業金融商品說明爭議被裁罰的結果這麼多年來有3件，一年賺手續費2,600億，這3件總共罰款多少？從800萬、1,800萬到3,000萬，罰不到6,000萬，所以我覺得你們真的莫名其妙，很明顯地你們在袒護這些金控公司、這些銀行，包括袒護這些壽險公司，很清楚嘛！這就是典型的劫貧濟富！所以我想看看你們兩個的廬山真面目，沒想到你們長得是這麼斯文，所以外表往往是騙人的。","好啦！我們再講到這些手續費，去年2,598億的手續費裡面，前5名就占了一半，前5名這5家我姑且就不把名字講出來，這些都是在金控業、銀行業裡面，也是我們消費大眾存款戶大家都覺得很有爭議的啦！怪怪的啦！覺得這幾家金控跟銀行都怪怪的！結果在你們銀行局的眼中他們是乖寶寶，天啊！這幾家，我剛剛講光手續費2,600億，結果四、五年下來你裁罰3件，裁罰加起來總計不到6,000萬，這個金額對我剛剛講的，光去年大賺3,652億的這13家金控而言，那是不痛不癢！那麼金控公司不只幹這些事耶！他們培養的一些理專、專員，當然有的也是學有專精，很認真沒有錯啦！竟然也是一群害群之馬，理專還會A錢，還會挪用資金，天啊！結果好不容易你們查到冰山的一角，查到挪用資金，A錢10億，10億哦！好不容易，也是你們三拖、四拖，三堂會審之後，欸！輕輕地就罰8,700萬，就這樣子結案。其他的理專A錢跟挪用資金，我相信還有，只是你們就是比較遲鈍，所以我搞不懂。我總結一句就是這麼多年來，金管會主導下的銀行局、保險局，你們裁罰金融業逐年減少、逐年減少，過去幾年，2019年也不過4年前，總計你們各項裁罰加起來還有3億，一直到去年只剩1億，只剩1億！我不懂為什麼，調皮搗蛋的這些金控公司跟銀行們突然之間變成乖寶寶嗎？變得那麼好嗎？我不相信，至少多數的存款戶是不相信。","那麼我再講金融消費者保護法裡面講的，應該告知產品風險跟產品條件這個部分，只有「告」沒有「知」！我們訪問了一些菜籃族、上班族們，他們遇到共同的問題就是理專經常都是一句話，說：「主管要求例行公事，等一下我去準備資料，這個放給你看」，放那一段就叫做告知。那一段影片我普遍問起來，針對告知風險都已經要簽字了，才給他放一下這個不到1分鐘的短影片，58秒！就是我講的，只有「告」沒有「知」。","好啦！不好意思，主席是不是再容我2分鐘講另外一個問題？還有哦！保險局不要在旁邊高興，這不是只講金控公司跟銀行而已哦！壽險業也一樣啊！壽險業每年收取我們社會大眾超過2兆以上的保險費收入，多的時候3兆，結果他們現在有這麼多的收入，他們的野心一樣還在，他們還販賣投資型保單，投資型保單也是出了一些問題，我今天因為時間關係，改天再跟你保險局談。","我最後要談一個問題，就是你們金融罰的那些錢竟然進到哪裡？進到你們的小金庫，金融管理基金會啦！叫做金融監督基金會還是金融管理基金會，還在一個小金庫，不受國會監督，然後你們出國啦！所謂的考察啦！教育訓練啦！什麼一大堆，所以主席，我強烈建議金管會，對於這樣子的小金庫，我跟你講，任何公家的花費「必也正名乎」，要光明磊落嘛！你要出國接受再教育，你要考察，正式地編預算！不要搞一個罰金收入，把這個當成一個基金，當成你們的小金庫，這以後都會被人家講：「哦！原來罰這一些去當你們的私房錢」，這是不對的！任何一毛錢的花費該花要花，但是從國家預算下去編列，可不可以？主委，可不可以？"],["主席：王委員……"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，可能有些訊息我會後向您報告，那個罰款是歸國庫的，那個基金是根據組織條例，它定期每年從金融業的營業費用中、收入中去歸一定的比例。我跟您報告，絕對沒有小金庫，我們罰款其實是歸國庫的。"],["王委員世堅：沒有小金庫，但是你罰款是進到那裡嘛！不是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有、沒有，不到那個基金帳戶裡面去。"],["王委員世堅：沒有到基金帳戶？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是歸國庫的。"],["王委員世堅：好，那你把這一個……"],["黃主任委員天牧：我會後再請……"],["王委員世堅：我知道這是一個小金庫啦！"],["主席：主委會後給王委員說明一下，好不好？"],["王委員世堅：我知道這是個小金庫，好不好？會後你給我這一部分的答復。"],["黃主任委員天牧：不好意思，可能我們沒有跟您報告清楚，很抱歉，我們再跟您報告，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員的質詢。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝主席。"],["主席：接著請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","葛如鈞","邱志偉","黃國昌","林楚茵","羅明才","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":269,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.6172187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.26721875,"end":1.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.79846875,"end":4.047218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.87346875,"end":9.599093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.122218750000002,"end":11.117843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.742218750000003,"end":12.400343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.244093750000001,"end":15.539093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.775343750000001,"end":17.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.74971875,"end":23.200343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.44471875,"end":26.085968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.50346875,"end":32.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.02159375,"end":35.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.83971875,"end":38.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.42971875,"end":41.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.12534375,"end":45.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","s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我想保險局跟銀行局你們很清楚嘛光是這些手續費"},{"start":185.783,"end":194.025,"text":"他們的收入一年、去年啦!手續費2598億、2600億之多!天啊!好啦!那你們管理得怎麼樣?好好的管理大家沒話講!照說銷售這些金融產品最重要產品條件、風險說明"},{"start":213.048,"end":238.653,"text":"結果呢?結果我光舉這幾年你們的資料裡面光2019到2023年被檢舉金融商品的爭議1390件之多1390件喔那這在金融消費者保護法裡面很清楚啊要充分揭露風險"},{"start":240.916,"end":267.588,"text":"那麼不充分揭露風險的話有爭議的話要處罰款30萬以上到1000萬結果你們處的怎麼樣那個兩位局長你聽好金融商品說明爭議這樣子經過評議以後山宿人有理由的有理由的站了"},{"start":268.786,"end":291.971,"text":"被你們精挑細選篩檢之後說他有理由的也有97件結果啊連一件連一件都沒有送到金管會去採取這個是你們的評議委員會他們評議出來的1390件說至少這97件有重大爭議結果連一件都沒有"},{"start":300.36,"end":320.331,"text":"經過你們金管會採取那金管會採取了什麼有啦你們公開的資料說銀行業金融商品說明爭議被裁罰的結果這麼多年來三件一年賺手續費2600億這三件總共罰款多少從800萬1800萬到3000萬"},{"start":329.457,"end":330.238,"text":"所以我想看看你們兩個如山正面目啊"},{"start":359.602,"end":383.04,"text":"沒想到你們長得是這麼斯文啦齁所以外表往往是騙人的啦外表往往是騙人的好啦我們再講到說這些手續費去年啦2598億的手續費裡面前五名就佔了一半前五名這五家我姑且就不把名字講出來啦"},{"start":384.304,"end":406,"text":"這些都是在金控業、銀行業裡面也是我們消費大眾存款戶大家都覺得很有爭議的啦怪怪的啦覺得這幾家金控跟銀行都怪怪的結果在你們銀行局的眼中啊他們是乖寶寶天啊"},{"start":410.777,"end":415.52,"text":"這幾家我剛剛講的啊光手續費2600億結果這麼多年四五年下來你財閥三屆財閥加起來總計不到6000萬這個金額啊對我剛剛講"},{"start":437.472,"end":457.711,"text":"去年大賺3652億的這13家金控而言那是不痛不癢不痛不癢那麼銀行不只金控公司不只幹這些事他們"},{"start":459.281,"end":483.453,"text":"培養的一些理專專員啦當然這些有的也是都學有專精很認真沒有錯啦還竟然也是一群害群之嘛理專還會A錢還會挪用資金天啊結果好不容易你們查到冰山的一角查到挪用資金A錢10億10億喔"},{"start":488.359,"end":516.96,"text":"好不容易也是你們三拖四拖三堂會審之後輕輕的就罰八千七百萬就這樣子結案其他的禮專A群跟挪用資金我相信還有還有只是你們就是比較遲鈍比較遲鈍所以我搞不懂那麼我總結一句就是說"},{"start":518.982,"end":528.846,"text":"這麼多年來金管會你們主導下的銀行局、保險局你們財閥金融業逐年減少逐年減少過去幾年2019年也不過4年前總計你們還財閥各項財閥加起來還有3億一直到去年只剩1億"},{"start":543.53,"end":561.187,"text":"只剩1億我不懂為什麼調皮搗蛋的這些金控公司跟銀行們突然之間變成乖寶寶嗎?變得那麼好嗎?我不相信至少多數的存款公司不相信那麼"},{"start":562.622,"end":581.823,"text":"我在講金融消費者保護法裡面講的應該告知產品風險跟產品條件這個部分只有告沒有知我們訪問了一些蔡蘭族上班族們他們遇到的共同的問題就是說這個"},{"start":585.438,"end":610.735,"text":"都是啊 理專經常都是一句話就是說 主管要求例行公事 例行公事等一下我去準備資料 這個放給你看 放那一段就叫做告知那一段影片我普遍問起來 這個針對告知風險都已經要簽字了才給他放一下這個大概不到一分鐘的一個短影片 58秒 58秒"},{"start":613.988,"end":633.689,"text":"就我講的只有告沒有知好啦不好意思主席是不是在讓我講我講另外一個問題齁那還有喔保險局不要在旁邊高興這不是只講金控公司跟銀行而已喔受險業一樣啊受險業每年收取我們社會大眾超過"},{"start":636.718,"end":646.419,"text":"多的時候3兆都超過2兆以上的保險費收入了結果他們現在這麼多的收入還"},{"start":647.813,"end":669.632,"text":"他們野心還是一樣還在他們還販賣投資型保單投資型保單這些也是出了一些問題我今天時間關係改天再跟你保險局談我最後要談一個問題就是說你們金融啊你們罰的那些錢啊竟然進到哪裡進到你們的小金庫金融管理基金會啦"},{"start":674.929,"end":695.471,"text":"叫做金融監督機、金融管理機還在一個小金庫不受國會監督然後你們出國啦所謂的考察啦教育訓練啦什麼一大堆所以主席我強烈建立金管會這樣子的小金庫我跟你講任何公家的花費必也正名乎"},{"start":696.445,"end":717.779,"text":"我們光明磊落嘛你要出國接受再教育你要考察正式的編預算不要搞一個罰金收入把這個當成一個基金當成你們的小金庫最後都會被人家講人家罰這一些啊這個罰去當你們的私房錢"},{"start":718.819,"end":746.458,"text":"這是不對的任何一毛錢的花費該花要花但是從國家預算下去編列可不可以局長可不可以那個那個主委報告報告委員可能有些訊息我會後跟您報告那個罰款是歸國庫的沒有那個基金是根據組織條例他定期每年從金融業的營業營業的費用中收入中歸一定的比例我跟您報告絕對沒有小金庫"},{"start":748.419,"end":767.855,"text":"其實是歸國庫的。但是你罰款是進到那裡嗎?不是嗎?沒有沒有,不到那個基金帳戶裡面去。沒有到基金帳戶。是歸國庫的。好,那你把這個帳戶,我知道這個是一個小金庫了。我知道這個是一個小金庫了。不好意思,可能我沒有給您報告清楚,很抱歉。我們再給您報告,謝謝。謝謝王世堅委員的質詢。謝謝主席。接著我們請李彥秀委員質詢。"}]}},{"id":"149273","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149273","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd32023d8643b03d7ae0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a69bf675f76cd7c0d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:33:18 - 11:45:24","影片長度":"00:12:06","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":726,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:45:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:33:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":615,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時33分）謝謝主席，請黃主委，先讓主委喝口茶。黃主委好。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，委員早。"],["李委員坤城：辛苦了！一早上也問了這麼多回了，我先請教一下，在2020年的時候受到新冠肺炎疫情的影響，所以金管會就停赴中國實地金檢，然後我看你們在2024年的預算書上面有提到說有計畫打算在今年3月到11月要赴中國金檢，但是去中國金檢必須跟中方事先取得聯繫同意之後才能成行嘛！然後這幾個禮拜以來，因為中國快艇非法越界逃避海巡查緝的翻船事件，兩岸的關係有那麼一點點緊張，我想請問一下主委，有沒有計畫要繼續到中國金檢？有跟中方聯繫嗎？預計何時會過去？"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為我們跟對岸有簽監理備忘錄，就是各國都一樣，要去對方實地金檢需要經過對方主管機關同意。"],["李委員坤城：對，我知道。"],["黃主任委員天牧：那今年會去，但是進度到什麼，是不是請局長跟你報告？"],["李委員坤城：對，我的意思是說有跟中方聯繫了嗎？因為我看預算書上面是有這個計畫。"],["張局長子浩：對，我們今年4月有這個計畫，目前正在跟陸委會報備中，陸委會如果它說同意了，我們就會進一步跟大陸這邊再做聯繫。"],["李委員坤城：所以現在是還要陸委會同意才跟中方聯繫？"],["張局長子浩：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以現在還沒跟中方聯繫就對了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：還沒有，對。"],["李委員坤城：那過去的時間呢？預計呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：看聯繫的結果，就是陸委會這邊先給我們表示正面的意見之後，我們就會跟對方監理機關聯繫。"],["李委員坤城：好，所以是有打算要去就對了。"],["黃主任委員天牧：有。"],["李委員坤城：那就是等陸委會那邊的決定就對了。"],["黃主任委員天牧：不是，只是跟它確認……"],["李委員坤城：對，等陸委會那邊決定之後，再跟中方聯繫嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：確認它沒有任何其他的意見，我們就會跟對方監理機關去請教他們的意見。"],["李委員坤城：好。我有看你們的報告，其實你們在報告裡面第一點就提到了未來工作重點就是防制金融詐騙保障國人權益，大家所關心的真的就是打詐、詐騙，其實我們在選舉的時候就常常遇到，詐騙實在太氾濫了。當然我也知道政府做了很多的準備工作，其中你們有提到臨櫃關懷的成效，我看到112年攔阻的案件有增加，增加了3,321件，攔阻的金額也有增加，增加了33.48億元，這兩年來攔阻的金額大概是118億元，這是你們的報告，當然業務報告上面是寫「成效顯著」，這個也是為自己加油打氣啦！但是跟民眾的實際感受還是有落差。","我拿中正大學犯罪研究中心他們所公布的，當然這是111年，或許112年會比較高一點點，他們對於犯罪防制滿意度的調查研究報告，其中關於民眾對政府在詐騙犯罪防制的表現有超過半數啦！五成三還是不滿意，那表示政府所做的跟民眾的期待還是有落差。","我再拿刑事警察局的統計來做個說明，刑事警察局統計的詐騙案數，我就舉2022跟2023好了，詐騙的案數是增加的，從兩萬九增加到三萬七；財產的損失也是增加的，從73.2億增加到88.7億。對於攔阻金額，當然我們做了很多打詐的措施，包括臨櫃關懷等等，所以攔阻的金額也有增加，從50.5億到89.8億。","跟主委就教，當然從正面的說法來看，這兩年攔阻的金額有140億，但是財產損失方面有162億，財產損失還是比攔阻的還要多啊！這是刑事警察局的統計，然後就財產的損失跟攔阻的金額把它加起來，當作是一個詐騙的規模好了，在2022年是123億，就是財產損失加上攔阻金額，但是2023年就達到178億，所以整個攔阻金額加上詐騙的財產損失，實際上整個詐騙的規模還是增加的，想請教一下主委的看法？我當然知道政府很用心，打詐五法在去年5月底也都通過了，但是這個數字都還是增加的哦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，其實詐騙有好幾個介面，剛才講的100億那是臨櫃關懷，另外還有比方說網路約定轉帳，還有投資詐騙，這些其實都不是剛才前面的數字所涵蓋的。其實我在報告中的第5頁跟第7頁都有講，今年第1季有些新的措施，就是灰名單的通報跟……"],["李委員坤城：好，那我就請教你新的措施。在3月1日有一個新的措施，這是按照洗錢防制法的規定，大概就是有關於人頭帳戶的限制嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，出借人頭帳戶他會得到他的裁罰。"],["李委員坤城：從3月1日開始嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["李委員坤城：那我就按照警政署的數字好了，這個規定落實之後，因為是去年5月底啦！去年5月底我們打詐五法其中有關洗錢防制法是修正通過，然後它說到3月1日，依照法務部的新聞稿，到現在為止有超過1萬2,000人受到告誡處分，那就是說這1萬2,000人是適用這一個新的規定就對了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，他的帳戶功能跟額度都會受到限制。"],["李委員坤城：受到什麼樣的限制？"],["黃主任委員天牧：就是他也許一天只能使用一定的金額，或者他在轉帳各方面，等於說他自由使用金融這種帳戶的權利受到克制。"],["李委員坤城：我看你們新聞稿上面是寫大概每天轉帳不能超過1萬塊。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以這個新法，洗錢防制法修正在去年5月30日通過之後，到現在3月1日，看這個數字大概有1萬2,000人受到告誡處分，這個是警察要做處理的嘛？"],["黃主任委員天牧：也要金融機構一起配合。"],["李委員坤城：好。我再請教一下主委，銀行及信用合作社警示帳戶，按照我這邊的數字，這個應該是金管會提供的，在112年6月30日，這個是累計的，有10萬4,000件，但是到了112年12月底到達十一萬八千多件，這個警示帳戶還是增加的啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：警示帳戶應該是警政單位他們確定之後告訴銀行，它據以去對這個帳戶做一些功能的限制。"],["李委員坤城：對，我是說這個跟人頭帳戶呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個就有可能是人頭帳戶。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！就是人頭帳戶嘛！我的意思是說，當然這個是半年的期間，打詐五法、洗錢防制法是5月30日通過，你們是3月1日才正式實施告誡處分，那這8個月來，我想請教這8個月來的人頭帳戶，就是警示帳戶，有沒有稍微下降一點？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實還是有一些增加。我跟您報告，因為洗防法通過，通過子法，然後告誡帳戶處分的部分，銀行還要修系統，所以才會到3月1日，不是說中間沒有做事。"],["李委員坤城：好，我知道，3月1日實施。你們還有一個新的規定，約定轉帳，這是約定轉帳的，剛剛是講人頭帳戶，現在是約定轉帳有一個事前、事中、事後的管控措施，也是預計3月底要上路嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["李委員坤城：那這個是指國營，國家的銀行，還是全部的銀行？"],["黃主任委員天牧：大家都要做。"],["李委員坤城：大家都要做，包含民營就對了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：都要做。"],["李委員坤城：全部都要做。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["李委員坤城：3月底所有的銀行就是要做你們這一個事前、事中、事後的管控措施？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["李委員坤城：那管控措施的內容主要是什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我跟您報告，假如說我今天到銀行去匯錢，匯到B銀行的某個帳戶，那B銀行是收款的銀行，它就會跟我要匯款的銀行去確認這個帳戶是不是已經被其他人也同樣設定是約定轉帳，如果有很多設定就表示這個帳戶有可能是人頭帳戶，那就要通報之後，可能就告誡我不要再匯款。"],["李委員坤城：好，等於是說在3月有兩個新的措施，一個是人頭帳戶，一個是約定轉帳，那我是希望啦！當然先解決這個人頭帳戶、約定轉帳的問題，希望能夠把詐騙問題再解決。","最後再30秒。再請教一下，在你們的報告裡面第8頁有提到，這個是有關於另外一個啦！證券投資信託及顧問法，這是關於網路廣告的事情，你們說Meta是在6月底可以完成系統的調整，落實投資廣告實名制，那請問一下，除了Meta之外，Google呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該都是6月底。"],["高副局長晶萍：Google已經有了，Google已經有實施實名制。Meta是說他們要修改系統，所以6月底會上線實名制。"],["李委員坤城：所以Google已經好了，已經有實施實名制了，那Meta是到6月底。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["李委員坤城：因為我看你們的報告，以為Meta是到6月底，然後Google還沒有處理。"],["黃主任委員天牧：如果照證期局提供的資訊，Google是已經完成了。"],["李委員坤城：最後，主席，我再借1分鐘。當然你們現在打詐五法通過，有關約定轉帳及人頭帳戶的事情有在處理，但是我還是要提醒主委，現在虛擬貨幣有可能成為詐騙集團的新歡，未來我們針對很多虛擬貨幣現在都成為詐騙集團人頭問題，那他們都是說我是個人幣商，然後個人幣商被檢警查到之後，就這個個人幣商到現在是行政裁罰了事，所以現在很多詐騙集團的教戰守則就是你被抓到你就說是個人幣商，對相關的交易不知情，常獲不起訴，這跟過去人頭帳戶、人頭戶的情況相當類似，所以我是建議啦！是不是在虛擬貨幣這方面還是要有一個管理的專法出來？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，剛剛跟委員報告，我們會朝訂專法的方向努力。另外，也建議洗防法增加個人幣商或是境外幣商，就是這種幣商都要在洗防法登記的這個制度。"],["李委員坤城：你們這個專法大概預計何時會提出來？"],["黃主任委員天牧：大概9月份會完成。"],["李委員坤城：9月份會完成。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["李委員坤城：因為虛擬貨幣的確需要專法來做處理，我也希望能夠順利在9月底之前提出來，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，我們儘快，謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員的質詢。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝主席。"],["主席：接著請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","葛如鈞","邱志偉","黃國昌","林楚茵","羅明才","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":269,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agen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這個我有看你們的這個報告啦那其實你們這個報告裡面第一點就提到了這個未來工作重點就是防制金融詐騙保障國人權益那真的是這個大家所關心的就是打詐騙那其實我們在這個選舉的時候常常就遇到說這個詐騙實在太氾濫了"},{"start":145.098,"end":164.543,"text":"當然我也知道說政府是做了很多的準備的工作那其中你們有提到說林桂關懷的成效那當然我看就是說就112年這個攔阻的這個案件有增加增加了這個3321件攔阻的金額也有增加增加了33.48億元"},{"start":168.105,"end":184.378,"text":"這兩年來藍組的金額大概是118億這是你們的報告當然業務報告上面寫說這個是成效顯著也是為自己的加油打氣但是跟民眾的實際的感受"},{"start":185.439,"end":201.219,"text":"還是有落差的我拿這個中正大學犯罪研究中心他們所公布的當然這是111年或許112年會比較高一點點他們對於這個犯罪防治滿意度的調查研究報告其中啊"},{"start":202.08,"end":225.114,"text":"關於說民眾對政府在詐騙、犯罪防治的表現有超過半數五成三還是不滿意那表示說政府所做的跟民眾的期待還是有落差那我再拿這個刑事警察局的統計來做個說明這個刑事警察局統計這個詐騙的案數我就舉2022跟2023好了詐騙的案數是增加的從2萬9增加到3萬7"},{"start":232.218,"end":236.701,"text":"財產的損失也是增加的,從73.2億增加到88.7億。攔阻金額也有增加,從50.5億到89.8億。從正面的說法來看,"},{"start":255.639,"end":275.531,"text":"這兩年攔阻的金額有140億但是財產損失方面有160億財產損失還是比攔阻的還要多這是刑事警察局的統計然後就財產損失跟攔阻的金額把它加起來當作是一個詐騙的規模好了"},{"start":278.717,"end":305.171,"text":"在2022年是123億就是財產損失加上攬主金額的但是2023年就達到178億所以整個攬主金額加上這個詐騙的財產損失實際上整個詐騙的規模還是增加的想請教一下主委的看法我當然知道政府很用心打詐無法在去年5月底的都通過了但是這個數字都還是增加的"},{"start":307.076,"end":335.77,"text":"委員其實詐騙有好幾個界面那剛才講的一百億那是零貴關懷那另外還有比如說網路約定轉帳還有投資詐騙這些其實都不是剛才前面的數字所涵蓋的那其實我在報告中的第五頁跟第七頁都有講今年第一季有些新的措施就揮名單的通報好那我就請教你新的措施在3月1號有一個新的措施這是按照這個洗錢防治法的一個規定"},{"start":338.311,"end":355.221,"text":"這個大概就是有關於這個人頭賬戶的限制嘛對,初屆人頭賬戶他得到他的一個裁罰對,從3月1號開始嘛對那我是按照這個警政署的一個數字好了齁我看看齁這個規定"},{"start":358.592,"end":383.206,"text":"這個規定落實之後啦因為是去年5月底啦去年5月底這個我們這個打詐無法其中有關洗錢房市法修正的通過然後呢他說到3月1號法務部的新聞稿到現在為止有超過一萬兩千人受到告誡的處分那就是說這一萬兩千人是適用這個新的規定就對了是他的帳戶的功能跟額度都會受到限制受到什麼樣的限制"},{"start":383.854,"end":412.197,"text":"就是他也許每天一天只能使用一定的金額或他轉帳各方面都有他等於說他的自由使用的金融的這種帳戶的權利受到克制我看你們新聞稿上面是寫的大概每天轉帳不能超過一萬塊啦是阿所以說這個新法這個這個洗錢防治法修正在去年5月30號通過之後到現在3月1號看這個數字大概有一萬兩千人受到告誡的處分這個是警察在做處理的嘛"},{"start":413.662,"end":421.948,"text":"也要金融機構一起配合我再請教一下主委銀行還有信用合作社警示賬戶按照我這邊的數字這個應該是金管會提供的"},{"start":429.281,"end":451.93,"text":"在112年6月30號是累計的有10萬4千件但是到了112年12月底到了11萬8千多件這個警示帳戶還是增加的警示帳戶應該是警政單位他們確定之後告訴銀行去具以去對這個帳戶去做一些功能的限制我說這個跟人頭帳戶勒"},{"start":453.873,"end":460.095,"text":"這個就是有可能是人頭賬戶嗎?對,那我的意思是說,那當然這個是半年的期間,打債務法期間,防治法是5月30號通過,那你們是3月1號才正式實施這個告誡的處分,那當然這8個月來,我想請教這8個月來,這個人頭賬戶,就是這個檢視賬戶有沒有稍微下降一點?"},{"start":478.227,"end":491.241,"text":"其實還是有一些增加啦那我跟您報告因為洗房法通過通過執法然後這個告誡賬戶處分的部分還要銀行修系統所以才會到3月1號"},{"start":493.257,"end":513.726,"text":"不是說中間沒有做事了好我知道那3月1號這個實施齁那還有你們還有一個新的規定約定轉帳這是約定轉帳的齁剛剛是講人頭帳我現在是約定轉帳有一個事前事中事後的管控措施也是預計3月底要上路嗎是那這個是指這個呃國營國家的銀行"},{"start":518.203,"end":532.257,"text":"還是全部的銀行?大家都要做大家都要做包含民營就最多要做全部都要做對這個3月底所有的銀行就是要做這個你們這個事前事中事後的管控的措施是"},{"start":532.998,"end":561.163,"text":"那廣東措施內容主要是什麼?我跟您報告假如說我今天會我今天到銀行去匯錢匯到B銀行的某個帳戶那B銀行是收款的這個銀行他就會跟這個這個我要匯款的銀行去確認這個帳戶是不是已經被其他人已經有有同樣的設定是約定轉帳若有很多設定就表示這個帳戶有可能是人頭帳戶那就要通報之後就可能告誡我不要再匯款好那等於說在3月有兩個新的措施一個是人頭帳戶"},{"start":562.923,"end":590.796,"text":"然後一個是這個約定轉帳那我是希望啦先解決這個人頭帳戶約定轉帳的問題希望能夠把詐騙問題再解決最後30秒再請教一下這個在你們報告裡面第8頁有提到這個是有關於這個另外一個啦證券投資信託及顧問法這是關於這個網路廣告的事情你們說在Meta是在6月底可以完成系統的調整落實投資廣告實名制"},{"start":591.716,"end":619.937,"text":"那請問一下除了這個Meta之外那Google呢?應該都是6月底Google已經有了Google其實它已經有實施實名制那Meta是說他們要修改系統所以6月底會上線實名制所以Google已經好了已經有實施實名制了那Meta到6月底看你們的報告以為是說這個Meta6月底然後Google還沒有處理"},{"start":622.194,"end":640.387,"text":"如果照政局提供的資訊是Google已經有完成了我在最後主席我再借一分鐘就是說當然你們現在打仗無法通過然後這個有關這個約定展帳然後人頭帳戶的事情有在處理但是我還是要提醒主委就是說現在虛擬貨幣有可能成為詐騙集團的新歡"},{"start":644.912,"end":662.61,"text":"就是說這個未來我們針對這個很多這個虛擬貨幣現在都成為這個詐騙集團人頭問題那他們都是說我是個人幣商那個人幣商呢這個檢警查到之後呢就這個個人幣商呢到現在呢行政裁罰了事"},{"start":663.612,"end":681.993,"text":"所以現在很多詐騙集團交戰守則就是說你被抓到你就是個人避傷對相關的交易不知情、償貨不起訴這跟過去人頭貨的情況相當類似所以我是建議是不是在虛擬貨幣這方面還是要有一個管理的專法出來"},{"start":683.069,"end":695.47,"text":"有關跟委員報告我們會朝訂專法的方向努力另外也建議洗房法增加一個個人避傷或是境外避傷都要就是這種避傷要在洗房法登記的這個制度了"},{"start":695.896,"end":696.276,"text":"王世堅委員"}]}},{"id":"149272","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149272","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd24758a19240c0271e0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a6c0e5c612942c44225ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:22:19 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11:33:06","影片長度":"00:10:47","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":647,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:33:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:22:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":569,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時22分）好，我想請主委。"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，委員早。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，主委早。今天很多委員都提到這個問題，總質詢時我也有問過院長，目前我們臺灣已經有詐騙之島的稱號，這個問題今天很多委員也都提到了，我想問一下，對金管會來說，我們國人的詐騙案件如此地大量，而且增加的幅度也不小，問題到底出在哪裡？"],["黃主任委員天牧：在行政院阻詐平臺有幾個面向，金管會是屬於阻詐的部分，除了金流阻詐，識詐也做了一些事情，金流大概就是在臨櫃、網路跟轉帳方面，我們做好把關的工作。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以主委還是沒有辦法說明清楚為什麼詐騙對臺灣人特別有效？因為……"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實……"],["黃委員珊珊：詐騙案件不斷地變化、多元化，甚至有新興的所謂投資詐騙越來越猖獗，投資詐騙在臺灣現在已經成為詐騙案件的主力了對吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，所以我們去年修投信投顧法第七十之一條。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，也就是說這表示民眾是有投資的需要，但是他沒有投資的知識或者是相關的素養。金管會在金融素養方面應該是主管業者吧！"],["黃主任委員天牧：是我們的責任。"],["黃委員珊珊：你們也發布了所謂的金融知識普級工作第7期的推動工作，所以金融素養推動是你們金管會的重要業務之一，我看到你的報告也這樣寫對吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：而且不只是我們做，是跨部會跟公司合夥一起做。"],["黃委員珊珊：就像我們剛剛講的，這麼多人被詐騙，這麼多人容易上當，這當中有一個很嚴重的就是我們對於所謂的金融或投資的素養不足的情況，金融研訓院2022年公布臺灣金融生活調查，這裡面統計起來有高達四成20到29歲的年輕人是接近金融文盲，也就是說20到29歲年輕人幾乎對於金融沒有任何概念，這是現實的狀態，這也是國人在金融素養上面很大的缺口，金管會有什麼看法？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這表示其實我們過去所做的還有再努力的空間，請委員多指導。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，這個調查結果我看了非常地詫異，20到29歲年輕人幾乎有四成是金融文盲，所以年輕族群現在成為投資詐騙的主要高風險族群。那在高風險裡面，對於他們沒有財金素養這件事情，我們的國家其實沒有相關的目標或者是規劃。在此跟主委分享一個經驗，我們曾經在臺北市的高中推動所謂財金素養課程，我們是請臺大的教授，然後找了非常多業界的業師進到高中裡面提供財金素養的選修課，一開始是用試辦的方式，後來到現在為止，臺北、臺中、新北高中裡面都有所謂財金素養的課程。它差異最大的是，因為一般教育單位他們給的鐘點費一個小時是400塊，但是這些業師他不太可能為了400塊去學校上課，所以我當時在臺北市擔任副市長的時候，我們是去找相關的基金會募了一些款，所以業師的講師費大概是一個小時3,000塊，這個已經在臺北市三分之二的高中成為選修課，目前推廣到臺中跟新北。所以主委，這些是財金素養進入高中的一個方法，金管會剛剛講這是你的業管，第二個金融知識普及工作也是你的主管業務，這個工作能不能請金管會跟教育部，甚至各地方政府的教育單位一起來把財金素養列為重要的高中選修課程？"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員分享您非常成功的臺北經驗，其實我也要跟您報告，過去十幾年來，我們走入校園從小學到大學有超過100萬人次，也是跟教育部合作。但是我想委員您的經驗一定有我們可以學習的地方，我們可以再跟您多請教。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，就是我剛剛講嘛，從小學到大學做到現在有四成是文盲啊！所以如果可以在高中，因為現在課綱修正之後是可以有很多素養課程，這個是已經實行過，所以您今天可以答應我說在金融知識普及工作裡面，你們可以編定相關的預算來協助我剛剛講的類似在高中裡面選修課程的財金素養課程嗎？或者是說一樣也請相關的業界，我們當律師的每年都有公益法律服務的時數規定，如果可能的話，金管會是不是可以透過類似的做法，要求金融相關從業人員每年有一定協助這樣子的教育推動，也有一些公益服務的時數，也可以成為將來跟公私協力來推動所謂財金素養，至少在我們的教育方面，在我們的年輕人的財金素養上面，有一天的報告不會是四成是文盲。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員您的垂詢我們會全力以赴，但是有些不足的地方會……"],["黃委員珊珊：你要給錢，還要找人，好嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個我們都有相關周邊單位一起合作。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望在新政府上任之後，這件事情成為金管會重要的推動方向之一。"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解。"],["黃委員珊珊：詐騙之島要從臺灣的惡名中除去，我們要先讓下一代對於他將來的理財有一些基本的概念，對於投資有一些基本的知識，而不會輕易地受騙上當，這是第一步而已。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個部分，請問主委，融資公司歸不歸你管？"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前不是。"],["黃委員珊珊：不是？那你覺得你該不該管？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實過去在96年、97年到107年都有報過行政院，但都沒有……"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，那你有沒有看過有一個影片叫做山道猴子？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有看過。"],["黃委員珊珊：對啊！對於那個年輕人，就剛剛講年輕人的財金素養有一定的差距，免頭款、全貸款，還有多貸一筆錢去改裝車子，所以不斷地用車子去借了更多的錢。融資公司在臺灣已經成為金融體系化外之地了，你同意嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員您的垂詢我們有做處理，那個影片所揭露的事情有些……"],["黃委員珊珊：我現在要講的是，這些融資公司已經是我們的影子銀行了，這個影子銀行不斷地做大，在臺北市租賃商業同業公會光2022年他們的融資金額在臺北市一個城市高達7,253億，在臺北市登記有案的融資金額高達7,000億。主委，如果一個融資公司是這麼大的系統，它是不是一個很龐大的類似金融體系的相關系統，而他們在金融監管以外，現在是全臺灣最大的影子銀行。目前我們有三大，一個是中租，一個是裕融，一個是和潤，他們的資產已經高達1兆5,000億，然後他們的應收帳款，也就是放在外面的錢高達1兆，目前沒有人管，你也不管，那請問這是誰在管？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我分兩部分跟您報告，這三家都是上市公司，針對上市公司，交易所本來就會用內控的角度去做查核，包括它的財務。第二點，我們前一段時間有約談這三家公司，其中包括一家公司也對那個影片中的事實做了一個重訊提出澄清。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，現在的問題就在於因為它沒有基本進入所謂的金融機構相關體系，像金管會這樣嚴格的管控，但是它涉及的規模、金流卻非常非常重大，你現在納管的叫電子支付，1年的金額是2,400億，然後接下去我們現在正在規範的叫做虛擬通貨平臺，也訂了一個辦法。也就是說，目前金額、規模都不到那麼大的情況下都納管了，融資租賃公司沒有道理淪落在銀行或金管會之外，也就是你兩千多億的也管，三百多億的也管，但就是不管這個上兆的金融資產，亦即所謂的融資租賃公司，這樣合理嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我跟委員報告，如果我說的不對，請您指正。因為您說的這個金額其實很多都是物的融資，那您所謂這些年輕人的部分到底比例多少，這個還要再去確認。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，我只有一個要求，包括電子支付、包括虛擬資產，金管會都做了最低成數的監管，針對融資租賃公司，我覺得至少要比照虛擬資產業者做洗防聲明，還有相關的基本最低程度的納管，你同意嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這我們已經做了，2018評鑑的時候就已經歸給我們了。"],["黃委員珊珊：金管會把融資租賃也納管，這才是我們今天最大的需求，如果可以的話，請主委把這個列為未來的工作重點好嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們可以研究，我跟您報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：別再研究了吧，這個已經存在幾十年了。"],["黃主任委員天牧：現在公司登記有融資業務的有六千八百多家，到底這個東西的範圍跟它的定義是什麼，我們還要再確定，我們要管什麼、是不是要管，這個東西要再……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我只要求最低的就好，以上，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢，接著請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","葛如鈞","邱志偉","黃國昌","林楚茵","羅明才","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":269,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.72596875,"end":8.535968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.24471875,"end":12.484718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.906593750000003,"end":13.969718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.189093750000001,"end":20.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.12471875,"end":24.044093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.80346875,"end":26.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2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"是融資租賃公司我覺得至少要比照虛擬資產業者做洗房聲明還有相關的基本最低程度的納管你同意嗎?這我們已經做了2018評鑑的時候我們就已經就歸給你們了金管會把融資租賃也納管這才是我們今天最大的需求"},{"start":613.894,"end":642.025,"text":"如果可以的話請主委把這個列為未來的工作重點好嗎我們可以研究因為這我跟您報告現在公司分際有融資業務的有6800多家我們到底這個東西範圍跟它的定義是什麼還要再確定我們要管什麼是不是要管這個東西要在所以我只要求最低的就好以上謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝黃常常委員的諮詢接著我們請李坤成委員諮詢"}]}},{"id":"149271","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149271","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd142e1ac73cd80103baff13691fd5102bf8ba9b0039caa7a6cef9fcc7641977765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"12:26:37 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12:40:16","影片長度":"00:13:39","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":819,"end_time":"2024-03-04T12:40:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T12:26:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":850,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（12時26分）謝謝主席，有請潘部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好，兒少的身心發展也是我過去在民間就一直非常關注的，其實在去年12月25日因為一個國中生攜帶了彈簧刀到學校，造成不幸的憾事發生，也引發了各界的關注。請教部長，因為教育部其實有在做校安諮詢的會議，也邀請了非常多的專家學者一起來討論，其中我最關注一個問題，由於我過去也是國小的家長會會長，現場的教師最擔心的一個東西是觸法少年回歸校園的中介教育機制，因為這些少年雖然誤觸法網，但是不管是保護管束、感化教育或服刑期滿，他如何從少觀所或矯正學校回到學校裡？這一塊都需要一點適應的時間，這個適應的時間如果適應不良，或是沒有人來協助他的時候，就很有可能再被其他幫派吸收，又再次誤入歧途，可是現在學校裡其實沒有這樣的能量來承接這樣的少年，之前部長曾經說過會盤點資源，去看看跟民團合作，設置中介教育基地來協助這些觸法的少年可以漸進式回歸校園，來確保我們的校園安全。我想詢問部長，中介教育基地大概什麼時候會開始啟動？"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員關心這個議題，也因為一些校園校安的問題，教育部在去年底開始全面性的對於輔導管教注意事項，邀集縣市及相關的教育團體，裡面有很多第一線的教育工作同仁，包含校長，花了很長的時間把這方面做了一些討論，不管是學生安全檢查，還有剛才委員提到的中介，因為還會跨行政院和司法院的會議，由林萬億政委持續的進行，這些在整個檢討之後，在今年2月5日我們也正式函頒給縣市和學校。委員關切中介的這一塊，這是很實務的問題，這次教育部一方面積極盤點未來可以支援縣市和學校可以來共同參與的，當時跟衛福單位來瞭解，還有相關的基金會，我們大概盤了88個這樣的團體，其中有一些目前初步接洽也都認為他們有意願、也合適，可以來有效的作為支持，這部分在3月底前，因為現在都陸續在盤整，有些縣市的資源比較充裕，有些縣市目前我們覺得不夠，這部分在跟相關的局處長談，一定要把它建置起來，因為這個基礎建置才有辦法讓我們建議司法院在處理上有個重要的機制，他們要做調查和裁決的過程，一定要讓學校參與，參與之後就會有建議……"],["張委員雅琳：我之前有要一些資料，我發現新竹縣和連江縣這兩個地方還沒有中介教育基地，剛剛部長有提到3月底會開始啟動，請問這兩個沒有的該怎麼來協助？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，我們所盤出來的就是委員所提的部分，像新竹縣楊局長都親自來參與了，因為現在其實有相關的一些團體有意願，甚至有一些團體如果量能夠，還可以在各個地方設跨縣市的分支，所以我想委員所提的這幾個是我們第一階段請署長這邊也積極跟幾個縣市來討論，一定要布建才有辦法支持最後由少事官、少年法庭裁決這個可能有疑慮的暫時不回校園，要有這樣的基地來支持。"],["張委員雅琳：我現在看到像基隆或嘉義市，有些地方也只有1到2個，這些地方也希望部長再持續協調、評估量能是不是足夠承接這些孩子。"],["潘部長文忠：會。"],["張委員雅琳：有哪些孩子會回到中介教育基地？剛剛好像有提到由少事這邊來判定他是不是需要回到中介基地，是嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，曝險少年或司法少年其實樣態滿多的，有的只是自身的行為，例如偷竊等等，行為人的個案是不會傷及、影響到別人，但如果像新北的個案，我們說他可能具有過往加入幫派或有暴力傾向等等的，這在少事官做調查時可以了解到行為人的樣態，我們目前會以這個可能馬上即時入校園會對校園內的其他同學、老師有些風險的影響，這一方面會是我們鎖定的，這一方面也會在行政院跟司法院的跨院討論裡面希望形成共識，因為很多孩子其實只是行為輔導，但是對於有些像剛才跟委員報告的這種特定對象，他真的需要有一個中介的過程，讓孩子可以在這方面有更充裕的時間做改變。"],["張委員雅琳：請問一下，到時候會有個評估機制來評估他什麼時候可以離開中介教育基地，對嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：這個一定會。"],["張委員雅琳：我想再追問一下有關特殊教育的部分，因為剛剛其實有些委員問到特教助理員薪資的問題，有一題剛剛部長一直在講，你們會做到全國一致，這個全國一致的部分是什麼一致？是薪資一致？還是什麼一致？請部長再進一步說明。"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，原來特教學生助理員都是由各縣市執行，不管待遇等等，確實縣市之間差異比較大，這次教育部研擬的4年計畫報行政院核定支持這個計畫，當中就是希望未來有1,600位的專任人員，也增加部分服務的時數，這些我們希望能夠建置起來，這是過往比較不足的地方，往下就是這些相關人員的待遇，包含他的服務等等，我們會訂定要點，這個要點也希望跟縣市交換意見，像委員所提到的縣市待遇差異很大，這個當然也比較希望能夠以一致的方式來跟縣市溝通，中央當然也會增加更多的預算來協助縣市。舉例來說，過往中小學代理教師也是各行其是，有的聘10個月，有個10個半月，有的全年聘，這方面在去年教育部跟縣市努力下也把它建立起來，我用那個概念，希望這個在各個地方都會有很一致性的服務樣態，包含人員的待遇、福利等等的一致，我們朝這方向來努力。"],["張委員雅琳：請問一致的部分，這些詳細的規劃大概什麼時候會出來？"],["潘部長文忠：因為這個制度會在113學年度正式上路，預算目前都已經編列了，我們比較希望轉成執行的要點，目前教育部國教署已經跟縣市大概召開兩次的會議，因為差異也要大家對起來，上路的時間就是113學年度，今年的8月。"],["張委員雅琳：有關學生輔導人力的部分，因為現在學生、青少年、大學生自殺率節節上升，我們看到這張簡報上面，從國小、國中和大學自殺通報件數跟106年相比增長10倍，國小、國中跟大學自殺死亡通報件數也成長2到4倍不等。因為之前教育部已經有規劃大專院校的輔導人力從1比1,200到1比900，希望可以有更充足的輔導人力來接住我們的孩子。我想要問一下，目前聘用的輔導人力已經降到1比900了嗎？針對大專院校的部分。"],["潘部長文忠：因為這個部分在法還沒有完成最後通過、頒行，但教育部教育預算先行，目前大概有五成多到六成是按照1比900，還有三、四成，應該四成多目前為止還沒達到，當然，在法律還沒通過之前，我們還是積極來推動，因為這是用我們更多的資源來協助學校，一方面也希望法律能夠明定下來，大家依法來行政，今年教育部多編了將近2億元補充大學專輔人力，就是要達到1比900，這方面我們行政上還是繼續推。"],["張委員雅琳：了解。最後還有一個問題，這是大學的部分，其實校園諮商師有提供一些意見，他們的薪資相對於業界來比是比較低，再來還要處理很多行政作業，我希望未來是不是可以考慮針對這些心輔人力、這些輔導的心理諮商師，是不是可以有一些調整的空間？因為時間有限，希望如果有做一些討論的話，會後可以提供一些相關的研究報告給我們辦公室。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["張委員雅琳：針對中小學的部分，其實人力也是增加的，我過去所在的民團特公盟在去年做了一個研究，針對北高的孩子，他們去問他週末有沒有時間休息，他們請他寫日記，發現日記裡面從平常到週末，他都沒有時間可以休息，為什麼？其實就像剛剛宜瑾委員的案例一樣，很多的家長還是會認為學習比較重要，以至於他們會說週末可能都沒有辦法出去玩，因為週末老師會出更難的功課、更複雜的功課，或者要去上安親班，所以他們當時也有一個兒童遊戲宣言，這是孩子們自己做出來的版本，待會希望可以交給部長。這裡面有一個很大的問題，就是家長對於休憩的意識不足，是不是就有可能往幾個方向來發展？第一個，小孩都要留課後班，因為家長都要上班的關係，我們有沒有可能在課後班去要求有一些遊戲的時間和運動的時間？增加他的運動時間對他的身心發展也是好的。第二個，我們是不是可以在親師的會議裡面提供一些宣導？我們都有防毒的宣導，我們是不是可以有一些安全的宣導、遊戲的宣導？再來，我們可不可以提供一些類似健康五蔬果這樣的宣傳單張給家長，幫助家長去理解這件事情的重要性？","最後，我想要講兒童遊戲宣言，他們第一條其實就講到：我知道學習很重要，但是請大人相信遊戲對我也一樣重要，我希望我可以有一些時間，請大家把時間還給我，我也希望我可以有更多的刺激、挑戰，幫助我可以健康的長大。因為這攸關到我們現在中小學生非常多的孩子都在網路上，這就有可能造成後面一些憂慮的問題，我就把兒童的聲音交給部長，請部長未來可以往這個方向去達成。"],["潘部長文忠：我先謝謝委員，我想這樣的方向應該是教育部一直在推的，包含我們一直在提倡的戶外教育，就是希望孩子走出課室，家長也多一點機會，學習不只是課業，在生活面、運動等等，對孩子來講終身受用，這個當然教育部還要再努力，一定要多跟社會、跟家長來說明，謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝部長。"],["主席：接下來處理臨時提案，今天有委員提出臨時提案共計1案，請宣讀提案。","案由：有鑑於60歲以上壯世代已超過600萬人，超過全台灣的四分之一。在此人口趨勢下，壯世代為追求高齡社會下第三美好人生，在教育及技能訓練需求逐漸浮現，顯然有必要為相關族群進行政策上之規劃，教育部應預先研議，並就壯世代之教育機構（第三人生大學）設計、課程需求、如何與學校教育接軌、合適之實施場所等提出可行性之建議，並就以上所述內容舉辦會議充分蒐集民間意見及政策建議。於三個月內提出書面報告予立法院教文委員會。","提案人：吳春城　　洪孟楷　　柯志恩　　范　雲　　吳沛憶"],["主席：請問提案委員和各位委員有無補充說明或意見？"],["洪委員孟楷：先看能不能接受。"],["主席：如果沒有的話，部長有沒有需要補充說明的？"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝吳委員和提案委員，因為這是一個我們可以往下發展的，所以教育部配合辦理。"],["主席：好，教育部配合辦理，3個月之內給吳委員報告，臨時提案照案通過，如果有委員需要補簽，請議事人員詳細登載在議事錄當中。","繼續進行質詢。","吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員。","請鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員質詢，5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","林倩綺","林宜瑾","吳春城","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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﹝講正話﹞"},{"start":381.121,"end":382.303,"text":"道須會不會有一個評估機制來評估他什麼時候可以離開中介教育基地對嗎?這個一定會"},{"start":398.804,"end":418.636,"text":"下一頁想要再追問一下有關於特殊教育的部分因為剛剛其實都有一些委員有來問就是這個特教助理員的薪資的問題那剛剛部長就有兩個提有一題一直在講就是說你們會做到一個全國一致那這個全國一致的部分是什麼一致是薪資一致還是什麼一致我想要請部長再幫我多做一些說明"},{"start":419.176,"end":438.2,"text":"教育部原來特教學生助理員的這方面都是有各縣市在執行不管待遇等等的這方面確實縣市之間差異比較大這一次教育部研擬4年的這個計畫暴行人員核定支持這個計畫當中就是希望"},{"start":440.521,"end":460.298,"text":"未來有相當程度有1600位的專任的人員也增加部分服務的時數我想這些都是我們希望把它建置起來這個是過往比較不足的地方那往下就是那這些相關人員的待遇包含我們說他的一些服務等等的這方面我們會訂定要點"},{"start":462.379,"end":487.686,"text":"這個要點也希望跟縣市來交換一點,像委員所提到,你看縣市大意的很大這個一致當然也比較希望能夠以這個方式來縣市溝通因為中央當然也會增加更多的預算來協助縣市我用一個舉例啦,就過往中小學代理教師也是各行其事啦,有的聘10個月,有的10個半月,有的全年聘"},{"start":488.606,"end":507.542,"text":"這一方面我想在去年教育部跟縣市努力下也把它建立起來我用那個概念就是希望這個在各個地方都會很一致性的服務的樣態包含這些人員的待遇福利等等的這個一致我們比較朝這方向來努力部長請問一下這個一致的部分這些詳細的規劃大概什麼時候會出來呢"},{"start":510.024,"end":535.874,"text":"因為這個制度會在113學年度正式上路那預算目前都已經編列了我們比較希望轉成執行的要點這方面目前國教署已經跟縣市大概有召開兩次的會議那慢慢就是把縣市因為差異也要大家對起來所以上路的時間就是113學年度今年的8月"},{"start":536.694,"end":540.315,"text":"下一題是關於學生輔導人力的部分現在青少年、大學生、自家律師階級的上升"},{"start":554.439,"end":579.793,"text":"從國小國中跟大學他的這個自殺通報件數是達到了10倍那增長了10倍跟106年相比那自殺死亡通報件數國小國中跟大學也都是有成長了2到4倍不等那我想要詢問就是說因為之前教育部已經有規劃大專院校的人力的輔導人力是從1比1200到1比900那希望可以有更充足的一些輔導人力來接住我們的孩子"},{"start":580.373,"end":598.282,"text":"那我想要問一下就是目前的批用的輔導人力已經降到1比900了嗎?針對於大專院校的部分是 跟我們報告因為這個部分在法還沒有完成最後通過班刑那教育部教育預算先行目前大概5成多到6成"},{"start":599.182,"end":621.848,"text":"是按照1比900那還有三四成應該四成多目前位置還沒有達到這個當然在法律還沒有通過之前我們還是積極因為這個是用我們更多的資源在協助學校所以這一方面我想一方面也希望這個法律我們能夠明定下來變成大家依法來行政那今年教育部多編了將近2億給大學的這個專輔人力的補充就是達到1比900"},{"start":628.191,"end":644.821,"text":"行政上我們還是繼續推啦那就是還有一個問題就是說因為其實這個是大學的部分那其實校園諮商師他們有提供一些意見就是說他們的薪資相對來說是比較低跟業界來比他比較低那再來就是說他還要處理很多的行政作業那我希望就是說未來我們是不是可以去考慮"},{"start":645.942,"end":672.49,"text":"對於這些心腹人力這些腹腦的心理智商師是不是可以有一些調整的空間那因為時間有限那希望就是說如果有一些做一些討論的話之後也可以提供一些相關的研究報告給我們到我們辦公室那再來就是說因為針對於中小學的部分因為其實這個人力也是在增加的齁那其實去年我過去的這個民團特工盟他們其實做了一個研究就是針對於北高的孩子他們去問他你的週末你有沒有時間去休息"},{"start":674.03,"end":700.707,"text":"他們請他寫日記就發現說這個日記裡面從平常到週末的時候他都沒有時間可以去休息為什麼其實就像剛剛那個移籍委員的這個案例一樣很多的家長還是會認為學習比較重要以至於他們就會說他下課他的週末可能都沒有辦法出去玩因為週末老師會出更難的功課更複雜的功課那或者是說他要去上安親版"},{"start":701.287,"end":724.525,"text":"所以他們當時也是有一個兒童遊戲宣言這待會想要交給這是孩子們自己做出來的一個版本所以待會希望可以交給部長那我想要詢問就是說其實這個裡面有一個很大的問題就是家長對於休憩的意識不足那是不是就有可能往幾個方向來發展第一個是說我們是在因為小孩都要留課後班因為家長都要上課的關係上班的關係"},{"start":725.766,"end":742.786,"text":"我們有沒有可能在課後班裡面去要求有一些遊戲的時間跟運動的時間增加他的運動時間對他的身心發展也是好的那第二個部分也就是說我們是不是可以在親師的會議裡面提供一些防毒我們都有防毒的宣導我們是不是可以有一些安全的宣導遊戲的宣導這樣子"},{"start":745.269,"end":769.645,"text":"接下來就是說我們可不可以提供一些像類似健康五蔬果這樣子的宣傳單張給家長幫助家長去理解這件事情的重要性那最後我就想要講這個兒童遊戲宣言他們其實第一條就講說我知道學習很重要但是請大人相信遊戲對我也一樣重要好那我希望我可以有一些時間讓大家請大家把時間還給我那我也希望說我可以有更多的"},{"start":770.225,"end":773.566,"text":"謝謝委員 我想這樣的方向應該是教育部也一直在推啦我們一直在推上戶外教育為什麼就希望孩子走出課室家長也多一點機會也希望不只是課業"},{"start":800.112,"end":800.132,"text":"謝謝,謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"149270","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149270","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddcdda06e95f87a2ddbaff13691fd5102bf8ba9b0039caa7a6474a70c700ab9a965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"12:26:17 - 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12:36:44","影片長度":"00:07:22","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院食品安全辦公室、衛生福利部部長、食品藥物管理署就「食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅事件處理之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":442,"end_time":"2024-03-04T12:36:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T12:29:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1071,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（12時29分）謝謝主席，我想要請薛部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長，從剛才大家的質詢，其實我們知道即便是現在我們想要擴大邊境檢驗，那我們的人力到底是否足夠？今天只是蘇丹紅而已，未來在食安方面我們邊境檢驗的人力不夠的情況下，那有沒有辦法遏止所有影響食品添加、重大的這些元素進口？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，其實我們也不可能所有進口食品部分統統要非常高比例的一個檢驗，所以重點是，第一個要有風險分級，且要把這個風險分級做好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你也說檢驗人力不夠，那你們是要增加檢驗的人力嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然在人力的部分的話我們是希望能夠增加人力，但是要跟行政院那邊來爭取。"],["謝委員衣鳯：其實我們知道食安五環裡面地方政府也是重要的一環，你們跟地方政府的合作上，如果都是劍拔弩張的時候，尤其是在查驗到如此重大影響食安問題的這個情況下，到底地方政府他們因應的措施是如何？是不是也應該要讓所有的地方政府知道，我覺得不要分藍綠，同樣都是有同等的這樣子……"],["薛部長瑞元：不會啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為你們實驗室檢驗的量能都是同樣的嘛，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：在同樣的情況下，是不是應該立即反映？未來處理程序的SOP是如何？是不是給所有的民眾以及所有地方政府一套共同的檢驗標準？"],["薛部長瑞元：在這個部分的話，其實我已經有責成食藥署，我們會再召集各個縣市的檢驗單位一起來處理這個問題，我們要把那個SOP弄好。其實我們跟地方的合作一直都非常好，只是說這一次因為臺中實驗室的西布特羅這個事件，雙方稍微有一點點緊張的關係，但是這裡面的話，其實是有一些SOP必須要把它處理好。因為在過去老實講並沒有……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那你們現在處理好了沒？有沒有辦法給大家一個清楚的交代？"],["薛部長瑞元：還要再討論。"],["謝委員衣鳯：說實在話，就在實驗室發現這個情況下，怎麼樣子做垂直檢驗、水平檢驗，這就是給民眾一個清白，不要讓大家對於食用豬肉有疑慮，那大家也知道怎麼樣挑選安全的豬肉，這都是民眾想知道的，這才是真正保護食安的做法。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那我再問一個，就是現在我們的醫學中心方面，北部多了三家，那你是不是排擠到了中南部的醫療資源？"],["薛部長瑞元：不會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那個健保的分配是如何分配？我看到的是台大新竹分院，它即便升了醫學中心之後，其掛號費也沒有升反降，那為什麼其他地區的這個掛號費……到底標準是什麼？為什麼是標準不一？"],["薛部長瑞元：掛號費的部分，從很久很久以前我們就已經將其定位為一個行政的費用，不是醫療……"],["謝委員衣鳯：是收到你們健保局？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有、沒有，就是醫院收的，因為它是醫院裡面的行政費用，非屬醫療費用，所以原則上並不受政府機關的管制，但是我們會要求，每一家醫療院所掛號費要怎麼樣收必須要在明顯的地方揭示，讓民眾知道說你這一家掛號費是多少，不要說進去看了診後，最後要付款的時候才發現說掛號費怎麼那麼貴。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有健保的資源也影響到醫師他選擇科別，其實我們看到最近最明顯的，我們中部的兒童醫院，尤其是發生了一些重大的意外事故以後發現，兒童醫院的專科醫師比例偏低，那我也從旁瞭解了我們四大皆空的部分，就是說所謂的內科、外科等等的醫師都偏低，未來這個情況要怎麼解決？我們當然不想要像南韓一樣，其實全臺灣可能沒有缺醫師，但是在尊重他們的自由意志下，要如何把他導向這個專科醫師缺的科別，你們未來的規劃是如何？"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分的話跟委員報告，因為少子化的關係，所以這個兒科的病人人數是減少了，所以兒科醫師會覺得他們沒有什麼樣的前景。那目前我們有推出一個優化兒童醫療照護的計畫，這裡面的話就會對於一些兒科的住院醫師在接受專科醫師訓練時會給他薪資的補助。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那其他缺的部分呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為現在兒科缺最多，其他像說婦產科，目前招生的情況還好，外科也還好，內科的話，因為它是以大內科去算，所以看起來好像有一些是沒有收滿，但是有一些其實競爭也滿激烈的，所以內科還要進一步去做分析，兒科的部分，目前所知大概是情況是比較慘的，所以我們針對兒科先做處理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你們會先針對兒科先做處理，至於健保的醫療資源，要如何不讓所有的醫療資源都集中在北部，而應該對於中南部的─就是偏鄉的醫療也有相關的照護，我覺得這也是非常重要的，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。因為健保總額會有分區的總額的一個分配，所以這個部分的話，我們都會兼顧各個……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，不能夠只著重北部，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：不會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這樣子會讓北部的醫療資源普遍地比較充沛，但是中南部的醫療資源方面，大家的選擇性就少，而且就醫也不方便，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：是啦，這個目前都正在改善當中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：好，我們謝謝謝衣鳯委員的質詢。謝謝部長。","接下來請萬美玲、萬美玲、萬美玲委員不在。","林德福、林德福、林德福委員不在。","馬文君、馬文君、馬文君委員不在。","李彥秀、李彥秀、李彥秀委員不在。","游顥、游顥、游顥委員不在。","羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","羅智強、羅智強、羅智強委員不在。","黃建賓、黃建賓、黃建賓委員不在。","林沛祥、林沛祥、林沛祥委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來我們請陳委員瑩進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":296,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-2","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","林月琴","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","楊曜","林淑芬","陳雪生","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","陳瑩","王鴻薇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","林德福"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院食品安全辦公室、衛生福利部部長、食品藥物管理署就「食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅\n事件處理之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130601_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.755343750000002,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.961593750000002,"end":12.822218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.96909375,"end":18.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.52596875,"end":19.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.80846875,"end":33.190343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.51096875,"end":48.462218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.05284375,"end":62.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.181593750000005,"end":64.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.24909375,"end":62.586593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.11784375,"end":71.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.90596875,"end":79.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.96784375,"end":80.01846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.25471875000001,"end":99.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.52159375000001,"end":133.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.85284375,"end":114.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.49346875,"end":119.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.46159375000002,"end":157.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.16659375,"end":167.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.38034375,"end":168.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.00034375,"end":176.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.34596875,"end":204.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.28471875000002,"end":185.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.19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於健保的就是醫療資源怎麼樣子不讓所有的醫療資源都集中在北部而應該對於中南部的就是偏鄉的醫療也有相關的照護我覺得這也是非常重要的是不是對"},{"start":412.583,"end":413.563,"text":"這是目前正在改善當中好 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Kacaw委員：還有我們司法院所有的官員。這是一個花蓮地方法院刑事判決，請看一下，這個是幾年前的一個判決，這裡面特別提到了被告違反山坡地保育利用條例的案件，裡面的主文是：「犯山坡地保育利用條例第三十四條第一項之非法墾殖罪，處有期徒刑陸月，如易科罰金……」，這裡面最主要說到他違反的犯罪事實是，這個土地業經行政院公告為山坡地保育利用條例所稱之山坡地。","我們看山坡地保育利用條例第三條，本條例所稱山坡地，是要經過行政院核定公告之公、私有土地。這個很清楚；然後山坡地保育利用條例第十條，在公有或私人、他人山坡地，不得擅自墾殖、占用；第三十四條第一項，違反第十條規定，處有期徒刑還有併科罰金；水土保持法也有類似的一個規定。很重要的一點，山坡地保育區不等於山坡地，山坡地保育區不等於山坡地，區域計畫法施行細則第十一條的山坡地保育區，它有這些定義。","我們來看這個案子，他被判有期徒刑的案子，它是花蓮縣萬榮鄉紅葉段1457地號，按照行政院農委會當時的水土保持局，這個並不是山坡地，並不是山坡地；然後另外一筆土地，紅葉段1457-18地號，行政院未核定公告為山坡地。所以這個判決是錯誤的判決，一般的情況，當然他可以上訴，但是因為這個八十幾歲的老先生，撒奇萊雅族，他從小就在這個土地上耕種、使用，而且它又是原住民保留地，因為是在不同鄉，土地在另外一個萬榮鄉，他是住在瑞穗鄉，他是在隔壁，所以他也不是在申請保留，這是祖先留下來的土地，就繼續使用，然後就被隔壁的瑞穗農場提告，瑞穗農場是承租的，所以這個部分一提告後，結果被判有期徒刑，沒幾天他就過世了，因為非常、非常地生氣，一生所使用的、自己祖先留下來的土地，竟然被判有期徒刑，幾天之後他就過世了。","現在是這樣的，現在上網查這個還在，所以這個人一生的清白，還有他的子女，人家上網一查就看到他的父母親就是有刑責的人，所以第一個要解決的是什麼？這個一直沒有解決，因為他人死了，沒有辦法上訴，對不對？他的子女可不可以代為上訴，也不行嘛，然後能不能再審？也是不行，那到底要怎麼還人家清白？秘書長，要還他清白啊！這個案子我質詢過，但一直沒有解決，因為你是去年才上任，所以一直沒有解決，秘書長是不是能夠再研議？好好去研究、去解決，可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們研議看看。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你面對麥克風，要有聲音。"],["吳秘書長三龍：研議。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：一定要解決，我之前也問過你們的副秘書長說可不可以不要上網，現在上網它還在喔！他說回去會研議，研議到現在，現在上網還在，這涉及人一生的清白，這是一個需要去解決的部分。","接下來，原住民族基本法第二十條，政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利；山坡地保育利用條例第三十七條，山坡地範圍內原住民保留地，除依法不得私有外，應輔導原住民取得承租權或無償取得所有權。無論是原基法或是山坡地保育利用條例，都寫得非常明確，但是因為基層的或是中央的、縣的一直沒有做得很好，所以很多我剛剛講的案例，他從小在那邊耕作到了八十幾歲，耕作到後來被判刑，就是因為沒有輔導他取得所有權，它也是原住民保留地喔！我們也有所謂的增劃編原住民保留地，如果一般的國有土地，符合原基法或是增劃編保留地的條件，他可以去增編為原住民保留地，拿到所有權，但是這個工作辦了幾十年了，始終沒有辦完，還有很多的案子。","所以我之前有特別希望我們司法院能夠做一個統一解釋，什麼叫統一解釋？就是希望只要涉及到我們人民可以證明說他這個祖先留下來的土地現在正在辦理增劃編原住民保留地的過程當中，他如果被相關的機關提起訴訟的時候，是不是可以就暫緩？就是暫緩判、暫緩審查，先讓他走完這個行政流程，因為行政流程很長，從去鄉鎮公所申請為保留地或是所有權，然後要經過縣政府，縣政府還要送到工廠管理機關，工廠管理機關還要送到原民會，原民會還要報行政院，那個程序非常的冗長，在這麼冗長的過程當中，是不是如果有這樣的案件被移送的時候能夠予以暫緩，等整個行政流程完了之後再處理？這個部分你們有做過開會討論，採否定說，否定說就是可以先不判刑，簡單講，一般的說法就是先不要判，但是沒有做決定、沒有做處理，說不予討論。所以這個部分是不是能夠重啟？因為這種案件我們就不要浪費司法資源，好不好？因為時間的關係，時間到了……"],["主席：還有其他委員。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對。是不是能夠再重新討論？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們再研議。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要再重新討論，因為當初說不予討論，所以再重新討論嘛！"],["吳秘書長三龍：這一部分會再提法律問題。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，下次我還會問，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們接下來請林沛祥委員、林沛祥委員、林沛祥委員，不在。","我們請下一位洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪委員孟楷，不在。","我們下一位請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員，不在。","我們下一位請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","下一位請蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員。","接下來請張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員。","下一位請何欣純委員，何欣純委員、何欣純委員。","我們下一位請黃珊珊委員發言，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","翁曉玲","黃國昌","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","柯建銘","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鄭天財Sra 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執行過一直沒有解決因為你是去年才上任所以一直沒有解決秘書長是不是能夠再研議好好的研究去解決"},{"start":317.216,"end":325.64,"text":"我之前也問過你們的副秘書長 可不可以不要上網 現在上網還在喔他說回去演繹啊 演繹到現在啊 現在上網還在"},{"start":343.083,"end":347.745,"text":"岩柱民族基本法第20條政府承認岩柱民族土地及自然資源的權利山坡地百惠利用條例37條"},{"start":369.272,"end":396.635,"text":"山坡地範圍內沿住民保留地．除議法不得事由外．應輔導沿住民．取得成租權．或無償取得所有權．無論是沿基法．或是山坡地保育令條例．都寫得非常明確．但是因為基層的．或是中央的．縣的一直沒有做得很好．所以很多我剛講的案例．"},{"start":398.902,"end":414.805,"text":"他從小在那邊工作80幾歲工作到後來被判刑就是因為沒有輔導他起的所有錢他也是原住民保留地那按照"},{"start":417.045,"end":445.166,"text":"我們也有所謂的增化編原住民保留地如果一般的國有土地符合這個原基法或是增化編保留地的條件他可以去增編我原住民保留地拿到所有錢但是這個工作辦了幾十年了始終沒有辦完了還很多案子所以我之前有特別希望我們這個司法院"},{"start":451.543,"end":477.699,"text":"司法院能夠做做一個統一解釋什麼叫統一解釋就是說希望說只要涉及到這個我們人民可以證明說他這個祖先留下來的土地現在正在辦正在辦理真化邊連住民把留地的過程當中"},{"start":479.551,"end":503.642,"text":"他如果被相關的機關提起訴訟的時候是不是可以暫緩暫緩審查先讓他走完行政流程因為行政流程很長從鄉鎮公所去申請保留地"},{"start":505.114,"end":534.04,"text":"或是所有錢然後還經過縣政府縣政府還要送到工廠管理機關工廠管理機關還要送到人民會人民會還要報行政院那個程序非常的冗長在這麼冗長的過程當中是不是可以如果有這樣的案件被移送的時候能夠暫緩等整個行政流程完了之後再處理這個部分呢"},{"start":536.727,"end":560.987,"text":"你沒有做過開會討論才否定說否定說就是說可以先不判刑了簡單講就一般的說法就先不要判但是呢沒有做決議你看沒有做處理了不宜討論了"},{"start":562.581,"end":563.021,"text":"再提法律問題"},{"start":591.738,"end":592.421,"text":"好,下次我還要問,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149266","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149266","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd14f6ee29dae2267e2dd7be9832461c05f8ba9b0039caa7a6ae209839394804ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:12:47 - 12:28:06","影片長度":"00:15:19","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":919,"end_time":"2024-03-04T12:28:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T12:12:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":783,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時12分）主席還有司法院的各位先進，還有我們本院的各位同仁，大家好。我先提一個很簡單的東西，因為我自己在當檢察官的時候，對於一個東西我長期以來都有一點想法，但是基於審判獨立，我們要給予完全的尊重，所以在這邊我想要提一下，因為剛剛有其他委員也有提過，就是我國的量刑真的是太輕了，我記得10年前，那時候還有在提一些量刑因子的設計，但是後來好像沒有很仔細地施行、好像沒有成功，我想要提的是，因為最近有很多的詐騙案件，剛剛別的委員也有提到，就是詐騙案件審判的刑度都過輕的問題，但是我也知道這個原因其實是導因於幾乎所有的被告都是車手或者是人頭帳戶，所以本來對於車手和人頭帳戶，他的量刑就不可能多高，所以從數字上面來看，法官對於詐欺案件的量刑看起來都很低。但這個部分我是有一個建議，就是司法院也要為自己辯護一下，因為我常常看到報紙什麼的都有寫到這一塊，但是它並不會就一個平衡的角度去說這個，這個是不是也會導致民眾對於司法的信任度降低？尤其現在詐欺案件是民怨第一名，如果我們對民怨第一名的案件，都讓人民有那麼多在量刑上面的質疑，我想可能對司法的信任度也是會有一點影響，這部分可能就麻煩大家幫忙，看看能夠怎麼處理。","再來就是我有另外一個建議，除了剛剛提到各種刑度的量刑都比較輕之外，因為我發現法官的習慣都是從最低刑度開始往上加，加1個月、2個月，當然有一些法官他可能正義感爆棚，他就是會重判，但是通常二審都不會支持他，這一塊可能也是要麻煩你們能夠注意一下。","再來還有一個是我自己當檢察官時最痛苦的一個點，就是承認跟否認的刑度真的太近了，我們看一些其他國家的例子，其實他們把承認跟否認的刑度拉得非常大，他不要讓一般人有這個僥倖說我可以去否認，反正否認到最後，判了也沒有比較重，為什麼會提這個？這不單是從被告的角度出發，其實就法官、檢察官的工作量來看也是差很多，以檢察官來說好了，被告坦承跟不坦承，如果刑度差不多，每一個來都否認，所以我們花非常多的偵查資源在處理這些事情上面；法官也是一樣，他在檢察官那邊認了，他到一審那邊又開始翻，一樣的，法官也辛苦，公訴檢察官也辛苦，法官的判決書寫起來又更長了。所以如果我們總是一直在實務上面把承認跟否認的刑度都拉得那麼近，我個人覺得是在找我們自己的麻煩，把承認跟否認的刑度拉大，我覺得這個在法理上面也沒有任何的問題，畢竟我是檢方出身的，我絕對尊重司法的獨立審判，我不會命令、要求法官一定要怎麼做，我們完全尊重，但是我們真的要呼籲，把承認跟否認的刑度拉開來，不要讓一些犯罪的人有機可乘、能夠僥倖，今天你如果犯罪了，你敢跟我否認，那將來你面對的可能就是一個比較重的刑度，這個再麻煩各位司法院的同仁能夠宣導一下這一塊。","再來我想要請教秘書長的是，秘書長你知道我們全臺灣現在最大的律師事務所是哪一間？你知道嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是理律吧！"],["吳委員宗憲：其實我跟各位說，從那個結構看起來是理律，但是事實上很多人都戲稱是法扶基金會，那是現在全臺灣最大的律師事務所，而且它的業績也是最好。我看了一下一個數據，就是從113年開始，其實我們的預算比前一年度又增加了很多，我們113年的預算已經快到15億了。當然我們知道法扶它的成立重點其實是對於一些無資力者，我們希望他在法庭訴訟上面能夠得到足夠的保障，但是我們花了那麼多錢，到底有沒有做到這樣的效果？我這邊目前找得到的數據大概是111年還有到112年的某些月份，是不是麻煩司法院就法扶的成效還有一些相關的數據能夠提供給我們辦公室，這部分可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：沒問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝秘書長。再來，我剛有提到，其實我們的法扶，有一個部分就是它無須審查資力就准予提供法扶服務的案件，依照我手上的數據來看，到111年的核准率是66.46%，如果我們往前面、從104年到111年來看，平均是62.5%，也就是說，其實滿高比例都是無須審查資力去進行，就是提供他這方面的扶助。當然對於一些中低收入戶我們當然覺得有此必要，可是我們有沒有去看一下，在重罪的強制辯護案件裡面，是不是裡面有穿插了很多其實他是有足夠資力的，然後我們卻浪費了司法資源去提供扶助？畢竟法扶主要的資金來源是司法院的捐助，如果基金會的主要來源是司法院的捐助，那這些錢是全民的錢，既然是全民的錢，在使用上面我們還是必須要謹慎一下，所以麻煩你們去分析重罪的強制辯護案件，在未審查他資力的狀況下，是不是有很多人其實他是有足夠資力的？所以這一塊麻煩你們能夠注意，而且立法院已經好多次在預算的主決議中都有下過這樣的主決議，請你們要仔細地審查這一塊，這個部分是不是可以在一個月內提供我們一些資料？就是有沒有必要修法或是做怎麼樣的篩選，在一個月內能夠給我們一份資料說明，不知道可不可以，可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以。"],["高廳長玉舜：針對剛剛委員關注的這個部分，關於強制辯護的部分，我這邊有一些簡單的數據，在此簡單先跟委員做一個口頭的說明，我們看法扶基金會111年度的年度報告書裡面，准予扶助的一般案件總共是5萬6,718件，其中強制辯護案件是1萬7,166件，大概是占30.27%；其中受扶助人是中低收入戶的，總共是1萬1,172件，大概占19.7%；受扶助人他是屬於身心障礙者的話，是有9,916件，大概是占17.48%，這一些類型大概比較可能會被認定是經濟上或社會上的弱勢族群，而且是法律上規定應該給予強制辯護的案件。","另外，針對其他強制辯護的部分，我們其實也有考慮到國家的資源有限，所以我們司法院已經有函請各法院在辦理刑事強制辯護案件的時候，希望能夠初步的先審查一下當事人的資力狀況，如果認為需要轉介法扶的話，再轉介給法扶，不然的話就儘量指定公辯或者是義辯來做辦理，這是目前辦理的狀況，先跟委員報告，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這部分還是麻煩一下你們能夠提供資料給我們。","再來，其實不是只有重罪，像107年1月1號我們有實施羈押庭強制辯護？其實這個讓法扶的案件量又再擴增了，法扶從90幾年開始到現在，應該是90幾年嘛。"],["高廳長玉舜：104年的修法。"],["吳委員宗憲：對。","其實我們一直在擴充那個需求的對象，司法院這樣受得了嗎？而且這些錢都是國家的，其實我覺得各個環節大家都在缺錢，如果在法扶這一塊我們支出這麼多費用的情況下，到底有沒有辦法達到一個效果？這是我們在懷疑的，所以我們希望就篩選的部分能夠更加仔細一點。","另外還有一個，常常有很多案子在他接受法扶之後，後來又突然說他不需要了，我手上的數據顯示，從105年到111年，放棄律師陪偵的比例快七成，如果是原住民的話，甚至有到九成，是不是這個部分可以稍微研究一下是怎麼一回事？也就是說，既然花了這個錢讓律師去做陪偵，後來到底為什麼他又不要了，是不是我們法扶出了什麼狀況？","最後一點時間我想跟各位提的是國民法官的制度，當然我知道這個是蔡英文政府上任之後積極推動的，但是這個東西到底對國家有沒有意義？其實我當檢察官的時候，心裡一直在存疑，到底這只是一個政治上面的操作還是真正能夠讓人民開始去信任司法。","國民法官的制度好或不好我現在就先不論，但是我想跟各位討論的是，為了因應這個國民法官的制度，檢方都是派出第一流的人才，我不知道各位知不知道這件事，所以通常都是很好的主任檢察官甚至在公訴非常強的，我們會派去國民法官的法庭，尤其他們在審理的通常是重大案件。","好，在檢方是這麼強大的戰力的情況下，那律師呢？因為我們現在法扶的最高酬金只有7萬5,000塊，我爸爸也是律師，以我對於律師收酬金的瞭解，這個錢根本請不到怎麼樣……這個錢，然後去面對這種重大案件，你叫一個律師來做這個事情，其實從經濟理性上面來看是違反的，所以這塊可能也是要麻煩各位看看能不能做一個研究，這到底要怎麼處理？是不是要設置國民法官的法扶專職團隊還是公設辯護人？因為你今天搞了這個制度出來，這制度到底對國家好不好你也搞不清楚，因為當初並沒有做審慎評估就貿然地推動，我看很多國家他們法庭制度的更改，都是有非常長時間的研究，之後才敢去推動，但是我們這邊就是隨便開個什麼司改會議，幾個月然後就搞定了全臺灣的司法。各位都是法律專家，我不敢說我是法律專家，但各位一定是，你們一定很清楚這樣的改法到底是真的在改還是假的在改，我想大家心裡都有一把尺，但是不管怎麼樣這個制度已經出來了，我們現在要怎麼去因應這個問題？你不能用非常少的錢去請一個律師，然後去幫忙這些人，你說這個叫法扶，我覺得這只是應付而已，這不是一個真的社會救助的制度。好，這一塊也麻煩你們研究看看能不能給我們一些數據或資料，這大概需要多久的時間？"],["高廳長玉舜：委員好。剛剛您針對法扶關於國法案件在辯護的部分，你有提出一些關注的意見，這部分其實我們目前已經在做的，在此簡單先跟您報告，針對專職律師的部分，我們認為可能需要檢討專職律師，目前其實他主要是以承辦訴訟案件為主，我們會檢討目前基金會對於專職律師在運用上，是不是可以更集中讓他們來專注於訴訟案件，我們目前有跟法扶基金會進行討論，法扶基金會這邊他們有同意在113年會成立一個刑事辯護中心的任務編組，這個編組的成員主要就是由專家學者以及負有刑事辯護經驗的律師來組成，他們也可以參與辯護，甚至做一些經驗傳承的工作。","另外在114年我們規劃要成立刑事辯護中心，希望由專職律師來加入成為種子，然後結合現有這些法扶的律師一起來做一個團隊的辯護，當然這方面我們也會加強他們的專業訓練，然後提升他們國法辯護的品質，目前簡單先跟您說明到這裡。"],["吳委員宗憲：但還是要麻煩你們給我一個回復。","最後，拜託你們真的要考量刑度的問題，因為在座也有我司法官同期的同學在這邊，真的要考量承認、否認的刑度是不是要建議法官？我是為了全國的檢察官、法官甚至是民眾，在此跟各位拜託這件事情，好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳宗憲委員的質詢。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：我們接下來麻煩鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","翁曉玲","黃國昌","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","柯建銘","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鄭天財Sra 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},{"start":63.562,"end":64.502,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":81.127,"end":81.848,"text":"司法院秘書長列席"},{"start":95.021,"end":120.011,"text":"因為我常常看到報紙什麼都有寫這一塊但是他並不會一個平衡的去說這個那這個會不會也導致的民眾對於司法的信任度降低尤其現在詐欺案件是民怨第一名嗎那如果我們對於民怨第一名的案件都讓人們有那麼多在量刑上面的質疑的話我想可能對司法的信任度也是會有一點影響那這部分可能就麻煩"},{"start":120.691,"end":120.911,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員"},{"start":148.829,"end":175.596,"text":"那這一塊可能也是要麻煩你們能夠注意一下那再來還有一個是我自己當檢察官的時候最痛苦的一個點就是承認跟否認的行度真的太近了那我們看一些其他國家的例子其實他們把承認跟否認他的行度拉得非常大他不要讓一般人他有這個有這個僥倖說我可以去否認然後反正否認到最後"},{"start":176.476,"end":176.776,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":197.372,"end":225.428,"text":"那法官也是一樣他在檢察官那邊認了他到一審那邊又開始開始翻那一樣法官也辛苦公訴檢察官也辛苦那法官的判決書再寫起來又更長了所以如果我們一直總是實務上面把承認跟否認的刑度都那麼近我個人覺得是在找我們自己的麻煩那承認跟否認你把刑度拉大我覺得這個在法理上面也沒有任何的問題所以是不是"},{"start":226.926,"end":251.978,"text":"我是說我畢竟我是檢方出身的我絕對尊重那個司法的獨立審判我不會說命令要求怎麼樣法官一定要怎麼做我們完全尊重但是我們真的呼籲能夠把承認跟否認的刑度要把它拉開來不要讓一些犯罪的人有機可乘嘛能夠僥倖你今天如果你犯罪了你敢跟我否認那"},{"start":253.098,"end":253.258,"text":"律師事務所"},{"start":275.119,"end":276.68,"text":"立法院秘書長列席"},{"start":294.65,"end":319.309,"text":"所以說我看了一下一個數據就是從113年其實我們的預算又比前一年度又增加很多所以我們113年的這個預算已經到快15億了那也就是說當然啦我們知道法服它的成立是它的重點其實是對於一些無資歷者我們希望他在法庭訴訟上面能夠得到足夠的保障"},{"start":319.989,"end":341.937,"text":"但是呢 我們花那麼多錢 那我們到底有沒有做到這樣的效果那我這邊目前找得到的數據大概是111年還有到112年的某些月份那是不是能夠麻煩司法院呢 能夠就法服的這個成效還有一些相關的數據能夠提供給我們辦公室"},{"start":342.837,"end":346.3,"text":"提供法服服務的案件目前如果依照我手上的數據來看"},{"start":365.157,"end":365.177,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":377.33,"end":377.35,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":395.214,"end":395.734,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":412.307,"end":432.938,"text":"主要資金來源是司法院的捐助那基金會如果說主要司法院的捐助那這些錢是全民的錢那全民的錢我想說在使用上面我們還是必須要謹慎一下所以麻煩一下你們能夠去分析這個重罪的強制辯護這個案件是不是裡面"},{"start":434.096,"end":436.197,"text":"在一個月內提供一些資料有沒有必要修法或做怎麼樣的篩選"},{"start":463.889,"end":488.221,"text":"在一個月內能夠給我們一個資料說明這個報告可不可以可以嗎跟針對剛剛委員關注的這個部分關強制辯護的部分我這邊有個簡單的一些數據簡單先跟委員做一個口頭的說明大概我們從我們這個看這個法服基金會111年度的年度報告書裡面"},{"start":489.321,"end":496.425,"text":"大概準與輔助的一般案件總共是56,718件那其中強制辯護案件是17,166件大概是佔30.27%那其中受輔助人是中低收入戶的總共是11,172件大概佔19.70%那受輔助人他是屬於身心障礙的話"},{"start":513.653,"end":513.673,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":534.191,"end":545.021,"text":"其他的強制辯護的部分我們其實有考慮到國家的資源有限所以我們已經司法院已經有含請各法院在辦理形式強制辯護案件的時候希望能夠初步的先審查一下當事人的資歷狀況如果認為需要轉介法服的話再轉介給法服不然的話就盡量指定公辯或者是異辯來做辦理"},{"start":558.172,"end":581.756,"text":"這是目前辦理的狀況 先跟委員報告那這部分就還是麻煩一下你們能夠提供我們資料那再來就是說其實不是只有這個重罪啦像什麼107年1月1號我們不是有實施這個家庭強制辯護嗎其實這個又讓這個法服的案件量又再擴增所以說這從法服90幾年開始到現在應該是90幾年嘛"},{"start":588.201,"end":605.058,"text":"對 就是說其實我們一直在擴充那個需求的那個對象那這樣子 司法院這樣受得了嗎而且這些錢都是國家的其實我覺得各個環節大家都在缺錢那如果我們在這個法服這一塊我們支出這麼多費用"},{"start":606.459,"end":606.479,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":621.676,"end":638.545,"text":"從來有很多案子啊接受法服之後他後來又突然又說他不需要了所以說在我手上的數據從105年到111年啊放棄律師陪偵的比例快七成那如果原住民的話甚至到九成"},{"start":639.125,"end":639.506,"text":"最後一點時間 國民法官的制度"},{"start":660.009,"end":675.491,"text":"上任之後積極推動的但是這個東西到底有沒有意義對國家有沒有意義其實我當檢察官的時候我心裡一直在存疑到底這個只是一個政治上面的操作還是說真正能夠讓人民開始信任司法"},{"start":677.313,"end":696.411,"text":"國民法官的制度好或不好我現在就先不論但是我想跟各位討論的就是說為了因應這個國民法官的制度檢方都是派出第一流的人才我不知道各位知不知道這件事情所以通常都是很好的主任檢察官甚至在公訴非常強的我們會派去做那個國民法官的這個法庭"},{"start":697.532,"end":718.527,"text":"尤其是他們在審理通常都是重大案件那檢方是這麼強大的戰力的情況下那律師呢因為我們現在那個法服他最高酬金只有七萬五千塊那以我我爸爸也是律師啊以我對於律師收酬金的了解這個錢根本請不到"},{"start":719.557,"end":719.797,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":740.865,"end":764.009,"text":"是不是說設置這種什麼國民法官的這種那種法服的這種專職團隊還是公設辯護人那因為你先搞這個制度出來這個制度到底好不好對國家好不好你也搞不清楚因為當初並沒有做審慎的評估就貿然的推啦對於我看很多國家他們的法庭制度的更改都是非常長時間的研究之後才敢去推"},{"start":764.429,"end":787.42,"text":"但是我們這邊是隨便開個那個什麼什麼施改會議幾個月然後就搞定什麼全台灣的司法各位都是法律專家我不敢說我是法律專家各位一定是你們一定很清楚這樣的改法到底在改到底是真的在改還是假的在改我想大家心裡都有一把尺但是不管怎麼樣這個制度已經出來了那我們現在要怎麼辦去因應這個問題"},{"start":789.241,"end":789.521,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":816.859,"end":831.831,"text":"委員好 剛剛您針對這個國民法服關於國法案件的一個辯護的部分你有提出一些關注的意見那這部分其實我們目前已經在做的簡單先跟您報告那針對這個專職律師的部分我們認為說可能需要檢討專職律師目前"},{"start":836.835,"end":841.078,"text":"他其實他是主要是要以懲辦訴訟案件為主那我們會檢討目前基金會對於專職律師的運用上是不是有可以更集中讓他們來專注於訴訟案件那也可以我們現在目前已經歸根法輔基金會有討論那法輔基金會這邊他們有同意說在113年會成立一個刑事辯護中心的一個任務編組"},{"start":860.672,"end":860.692,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":880.186,"end":880.387,"text":"麻煩拜託"},{"start":899.73,"end":899.97,"text":"吳宗憲委員"}]}},{"id":"149265","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149265","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd5247bf278774a676baff13691fd5102bf8ba9b0039caa7a6b72b967369a5ca435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"12:13:12 - 12:26:10","影片長度":"00:12:58","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":778,"end_time":"2024-03-04T12:26:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T12:13:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":822,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（12時13分）請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["吳委員春城：抱歉，我把人生第一次的質詢獻給教育部長，我最尊敬的教育部長。"],["潘部長文忠：不敢，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員春城：因為在我中學的時候讀了一本書叫「西潮」，作者就是前教育部長蔣夢麟，當時我看了好感動，這本書對我人生影響很大，因此我一直非常敬佩教育部長。民國初年的時候，當時一個國家在面臨著西學、東學，也就是國家前途，到底國家的文化和價值觀何去何從的時候，蔣夢麟先生能有一個高度，以一個教育家來思考，請問部長覺得教育工作的宗旨是什麼？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，如果就我個人，因為本來一路都是教育人，教育真的是從一個國家裡讓受教者從人到人才，在「人」的概念裡面，更希望每一個人有各種不同的專長，但也能夠各適其所，我想這是教育最大的本質。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝，我知道部長講起來可能三天三夜講不完，我想每一個時代，每一個部長的任務都不太一樣，當時「西潮」的任務也不會是現在的任務，將臺灣的前途往前看三十年，臺灣最重要的一件事情就是民主化，部長認同嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["吳委員春城：民主化很重要，但是我覺得民主化現在大概完成了，臺灣現在人民為主，這不是太大的問題，所以現在也不要一整天太政治化，搞太多民主，教育就要回歸教育的本務。之前的教育部長培養我們國人的民主概念，我覺得也非常認同，但是往後看三十年，部長覺得臺灣最重要的事情是什麼？因為這個就是目標，這目標如果模糊了，國家戰略目標就模糊，教育目標就模糊，就會整天不曉得在幹什麼，部長覺得未來三十年最重要的是什麼？"],["潘部長文忠：就我的瞭解跟過去這段時間的參與跟觀察，整個人口結構的改變我感受非常深，我跟委員一樣都屬戰後嬰兒潮，所謂即將六十的花甲老翁。當時跟現在和未來真的有很大的差距，在教育上我想情勢有了重大的改變，一方面對於少子化的現象，臺灣一定要持續面對，所以我們這幾年投入很大的政策。壯年的部分我想委員也理解，一定關乎整個國家、社會和產業發展，過往我們也比較忽略六十歲以後，但我們現在的平均壽命、餘命變長了，從教育端來看，這部分我認為確實是一個很大的課題。"],["吳委員春城：臺大EMBA教授陳家聲跟我溝通過，他說其實現在很多的知識系統都面臨必須要做認知革命，也就是說我們的認知系統應該要翻新。比如我們一般約定俗成會稱五十歲叫半百老翁，六十歲稱花甲老翁，我們的成語、媒體好像都是這樣寫的，但部長覺得自己是花甲老翁嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：如果以過去大家留下的刻板印象……"],["吳委員春城：所以這個有問題嘛！這有問題，但是這會影響到國人，甚至整個社會，不要小看這個，這也不是一個笑話，不只是一個成語，這就是我們社會現在的一個價值系統。六十歲的人就會覺得吃老要認老，所以我今天要談的重點是，我們從教育的觀念怎麼面對六十歲以後的人，現在臺灣有多少六十歲的人？部長知道嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：以目前來說大概是五百萬人左右。"],["吳委員春城：六百萬人。"],["潘部長文忠：已經到六百了？因為它一直在增加。"],["吳委員春城：臺灣進入高齡化社會，因為臺灣人說吃老要認老，所以我們平均退休年齡是60.3歲，很早就要退休了。那退休了以後要追求什麼？請問部長退休以後要追求什麼？這個應該是由教育提供答案、給人民的價值跟信念，應該也是教育部的工作，教育部要去塑造國家的意志，請問要追求什麼？"],["潘部長文忠：如果以現在平均壽命已經到八十歲，甚至以後還會再增加，從退休到這個階段我們說是較年長者，先不論要用哪個名詞，無論是自己的興趣也好，或是專長能力各方面，能夠再延續去發展自我肯定的價值，我覺得這是必要的。"],["吳委員春城：對，所以部長是認同的。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["吳委員春城：因為我們目前的系統當中，認為退休以後就是遊山玩水、含飴弄孫這兩件事情。另外是我們現在年青人的教育，很重要的就是培養出來以後，要知道他們在什麼環境生存，就是剛才講的培養人才能夠適應環境，在未來能夠成為國家棟樑。","明年畢業的孩子跨出校園、踏入社會時，臺灣就進入超高齡社會了，五個人就有一個人超過六十五歲。2034年，再十年後，這些孩子三十歲出頭了，應該人生開始要起步，所謂三十而立，臺灣已經有一半的人口超過五十歲了。2040年，臺灣六十五歲以上的人將占總人口的三分之一，也就是說這個孩子的一生都在高齡社會裡面，請問教育部的長官們，現在我們所培養的這些孩子，你們設定他們未來在社會當中的競爭生態是什麼生態？我現在時間有限，我問過一個大學校長，他們設定的是我們社會永遠都是青春無敵的社會，我看了早上教育部的簡報，大概也是這樣設定，我們的社會永遠是一個青春無敵的社會，事實上這是大錯特錯，我們如果戰場都設定錯誤的話，現在所做的教育規劃可能是有問題的。這也就是我為什麼要提出來這樣的結果，因為我們對於高齡者沒有給他們一個好的引導，所以臺灣的高齡者現在平均臥床到8.9年，高齡化的結果是倒下來。年青人因為培養出來以後找不到自己的戰場，所以不敢結婚，結婚不敢生小孩，這就是少子化最大的生態問題，所以後來成為躺平族。也就是說，在現行的教育體制下，我們整個社會就是躺成一片，一邊臥床，一邊躺平。","我覺得剛才提到的是一個大方向，前面論述太久，我今天要提的就是60歲以後，如果現在我們平均年齡八十幾歲了，以後可能平均會到90歲，也就是會展開二、三十年之間的第三人生，但是我們現在的第三人生缺乏描述，沒有政策、沒有產業，我覺得這是教育部的責任。我們現在看到教育部終身教育這一塊的預算只有34億元，但是我們60歲以上有600萬人，34億元提供600萬人的教育，平均每個高齡者一年的教育預算是臺幣57塊，這個是什麼意思呢？這就表示我們不重視嘛！應該是這樣子吧？然後大家的推論就是高齡者對教育沒有興趣，大家看看這就是我們終身教育的場景，這種場景會有人有興趣嗎？所以從報名率來看，我們樂齡大學報名只有4,000人，600萬人當中只有4,000人，這就是我們過去對高齡者缺乏想像，教育當中對高齡者的歧視，缺乏規劃、缺乏想像，形諸在我們的政策和預算編製當中都非常偏差。","其實第一人生進入第二人生，也就是18歲進大學，這很正常。為什麼第二人生進入第三人生就不用進大學呢？我們可不可以用大學來取代養老院？其實這是充滿生機，教育部現在最大的煩惱是因為少子化，所以很多大學要關門，但是事實上這600萬我們稱之為「壯世代」的這群人，人生最大的遺憾就是沒有進大學，因為那時候大學錄取率很低，教育部要不要考慮來規劃讓這些人能夠進大學？不要認為他們對讀書沒興趣，是因為課程設計太爛，如何在第三人生繼續能夠很豐富、能夠成功？我跟你講，大學都不用關門了，600萬人要進去，而且這些人擁有臺灣三分之二的財富，所以財源非常豐富，請教育部好好認真，我也會做一個臨時提案。不好意思，我知道部長有很多話要講，我待會會做一個臨時提案，也會給一個時間，因為這不是貿然，這個要翻轉一個體系，需要大家認真面對，我們一起來推動，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝委員，前幾天拜會委員，聽委員談壯世代的整個構想，我把你的專書比較快速的瀏覽，我發現這是一個我們面對未來要再重新思考定位，我想過往我們所做的不管是樂齡大學、高齡學習中心等，我想有它的基礎，但是現在也滿多的大學，包含所謂開放大學，也有很多類似的回流，但是那個跟委員這個構想其實還有一些可再努力的地方，我想這些確實可以再來研議，我對這樣的方向和臺灣要面對的問題，我是非常認同。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝部長。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員，謝謝部長。","接下來，葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員。","接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","林倩綺","林宜瑾","吳春城","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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這有問題但是呢 這個影響到國人欸 我們整個的社會就不要小看這個 這也不是一個笑話 不是一個成語 這就是我們這個社會現在的一個價值系統"},{"start":303.769,"end":309.912,"text":"我今天要談的重點就是說從教育部的觀念我們怎麼樣面對60歲以後的人"},{"start":319.732,"end":344.167,"text":"現在60歲以後在台灣現在有多少人呢?部長知道嗎?以目前來講大概是500萬左右600萬已經到600了大概600萬因為它一直在增加啦對一直在增加台灣進入高齡化社會現在台灣人因為都要領老所以我們平均退休是60.3歲所以很早就要退休了那退休了以後要追求什麼?請問部長你知道嗎?退休以後要追求什麼?"},{"start":349.505,"end":351.266,"text":"如果以現在平均壽命已經到80歲這樣的甚至以後還會再增加這個從退休到這個階段"},{"start":372.656,"end":393.703,"text":"其實這方面能夠讓我們說教廉長者先不要用哪個名詞其實在怎麼樣的去不管對自己的興趣也好或自己的專長能力各方面能夠再有更延續的這個去發展自己的自我肯定價值我覺得這是必要的對 是這樣子所以部長是認同的因為目前我們的系統當中認為退休以後就是"},{"start":402.346,"end":408.751,"text":"遊山玩水和你弄孫另外,孩子年輕人的教育"},{"start":411.065,"end":437.298,"text":"我們現在年輕的教育很重要就是培養出來以後要知道他們在什麼環境生存培養他剛才講的就是培養人才能夠適應環境在未來能夠成為國家棟樑明年畢業的孩子跨出校園他踏出這個社會台灣就進入超高齡社會了五個人就有一個人超過65歲"},{"start":440.872,"end":463.274,"text":"2034年大概這孩子嘛在10年後這孩子30出頭了應該人生開始要起步嘛32例台灣一半人口已經超過50歲了2040年台灣65歲以上人占人口的三分之一也就是說這個孩子是在的一生都在什麼社會高齡社會裡面"},{"start":465.11,"end":475.182,"text":"請問我不曉得教育部的這些長官們現在我們所培養的這些孩子你們設定他們未來在社會當中的那個競爭的生態是什麼生態"},{"start":477.782,"end":478.623,"text":"我問過一個大學校長"},{"start":508.802,"end":535.575,"text":"就是說不管這樣的一個結果我們對於高齡者因為沒有給他們一個好的引導所以台灣的高齡者現在平均臥床到8.9年高齡化的結果是倒下來年輕人因為培養出來以後他的戰場找不到自己的戰場所以不敢結婚結了婚不敢生小孩這就是少子化最大的生態的問題所以後來成為躺平族"},{"start":536.195,"end":549.843,"text":"也就是說在現行的教育體制下我們整個的社會導向了就是一邊就是躺成一片一邊臥床一邊躺平那我覺得剛才提到的這個是一個大方向"},{"start":551.428,"end":574.866,"text":"好那今天呢因為我要提了前面的論述太久就是其實60歲以後現在如果我們平均80幾歲了其實如果已經到60歲平均會到90也就是會展開二三十年之間的第三人生但是我們現在的這個第三人生缺乏描述沒有政策沒有產業沒有包括個人的都覺得退任我覺得這是教育部的責任"},{"start":576.287,"end":600.807,"text":"所以我們現在怎麼樣來我們現在目前看到教育部的就是終身教育的這一塊終身教育這一塊我們現在的預算只有34億但是我們的60歲上有600萬人34億提供600萬人的教育平均每個高齡者一年的教育預算是台幣57塊"},{"start":603.927,"end":630.334,"text":"這是什麼意思呢?這就表示我們不重視嘛應該是這樣子吧然後大家的推論就是高齡者對教育沒有興趣大家看看這就是我們終身教育的場景這種場景會有人有興趣嗎?所以當然然後說從大家的報名率我們的樂齡大學報名只有4000人600萬人當中只有4000人所以呢這一個"},{"start":632.027,"end":646.955,"text":"這個就是我們過去對高齡者缺乏想像教育當中對高齡的歧視缺乏規劃缺乏想像到形塑在我們的政策跟我們的預算編制當中都非常的偏差"},{"start":648.956,"end":667.995,"text":"這裡提出來 其實第一人生進入第二人生 這18歲要進大學嘛 對不對 這很正常那為什麼第二人生進入第三人生就不用進大學呢 我們可不可以用大學來取代養老院其實這個是充滿生機 教育部現在最大的煩惱是因為少子化 所以很多大學要關門嘛"},{"start":669.696,"end":695.747,"text":"但事實上這個600萬的我們稱叫壯世代的這一群人人生最大的遺憾就是沒有進大學因為那時候大學錄取率很低教育部要不要考慮來規劃讓這些人能夠進大學那不要認為說他們對大學對讀書沒興趣是因為課程設計太爛如何在第三人生繼續能夠很豐富能夠成功我跟你講"},{"start":696.807,"end":699.509,"text":"希望這個部長,因為不好意思我知道部長有很多話要講,就是"},{"start":717.421,"end":720.422,"text":"謝謝委員那一次前幾天拜會委員聽委員在談壯世代的這個整個構想我怕你那個專書我比較快速的瀏覽我發現"},{"start":743.15,"end":743.171,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":758.932,"end":758.952,"text":"謝謝部長。"}]}},{"id":"149264","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149264","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddc5e35ad945a9ebaba874ae98c1f56169f8ba9b0039caa7a62f79434af359719a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:20:36 - 12:25:44","影片長度":"00:05:08","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":308,"end_time":"2024-03-04T12:25:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T12:20:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1177,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時20分）謝謝主席，我請陳部長。"],["主席：我們請陳部長。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好。請教一下，在去年的時候，我們對進口雞蛋討論的非常非常多，立法院也有很多委員質詢院長及當時的農委會有關進口雞蛋的部分，當時的說法是會一直進口到今年的6月份。我想請問一下，到現在我們還有進口雞蛋嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：當初訂定的是屬於長約，時間是到今年的6月，但是在進口的同時，我們也針對國內的復養提出了一個改善的方案，以現在來講……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以現在還有進口雞蛋？"],["陳代理部長駿季：現在沒有進口，從11月、12月就沒有再進口，完全都是國內的雞蛋了。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以從去年的12月之後，在市面上，包含液蛋的部分，也都沒有再進口了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們都沒有進口，但是民間業者有可能因自己的需要而進口。"],["王委員鴻薇：對、對，當然，所以我的意思是政府……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們政府部門並沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：完全沒有再進口雞蛋？"],["陳代理部長駿季：完全沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：但問題是去年因為有非常多的進口雞蛋根本無法消化，大概有5,580萬顆的過期雞蛋。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們最近看到一直到現在還沒有銷毀，到底為什麼會拖這麼久的時間？我們也擔心這麼長時間都沒有銷毀，這些過期雞蛋會不會又重新流入市面？"],["陳代理部長駿季：報告委員，關於要報廢的這些雞蛋，我們都有專案列管，同時在那批雞蛋進出時都有第三方，因為現在都有封存，第三方會監督，直接進到我們的堆肥處理場，所以民眾不用擔心這些雞蛋又會流到市場去。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你在這邊可以保證……"],["陳代理部長駿季：絕對保證。"],["王委員鴻薇：當時我們說要銷毀的過期進口雞蛋絕對沒有重新流入市面？"],["陳代理部長駿季：絕對，我可以保證，因為我們的進出都有一定的管制。"],["王委員鴻薇：無論是殼蛋或是液蛋？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：問題是現在銷毀了嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們在去年已經招標了，現在遇到一個比較實務的問題，因為雞蛋要作為堆肥的這件事，各縣市政府要同意它的再利用項目中要增加一項，可以拿這些雞蛋……"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼時候可以銷毀？到現在還沒有銷毀？"],["陳代理部長駿季：各個縣市總共有14家可以協助做堆肥，現在有4家已經取得，其他是在等縣市政府同意這個品項。"],["王委員鴻薇：到現在有超過5,000萬顆雞蛋尚未銷毀，問題又變成是在縣市政府囉？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，我不是說縣市政府，因為按照規定這些……"],["王委員鴻薇：你可不可以現在告訴我一個時間，在什麼時間之前你一定要把它銷毀？不然留在那邊幹什麼？"],["陳代理部長駿季：當然是越快越好，我們的合約是120天之內。"],["王委員鴻薇：是啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：120天之內，但它是以取得縣市政府同意之後的120天，我們才會處理。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你現在又推給縣市政府，因為遲遲沒有同意……"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，這個絕對不是地方政府的責任。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以120天從什麼時候開始計算都不知道。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們絕對不會把責任……"],["王委員鴻薇：請問我們這樣珍藏這些進口雞蛋，五千多萬顆，這個流程有沒有問題啊？"],["陳代理部長駿季：向委員說明，第一個，我們絕對不會把責任推給地方政府，因為它是新的品項……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們會不會留到連小雞都孵出來了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不可能。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個太久了吧！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：從去年就要銷毀，現在你告訴我這個120天還不知道是從什麼時候開始計算？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我向委員說明，因為是各縣市政府的品項增加，我們現在已經在協調各縣市政府，看看是否可以加快。我們也協調……"],["王委員鴻薇：你給我一個時間，好嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我本來是期待現在已經取得縣市政府同意的4家都可以開始啟動、陸續啟動，這樣就不用等到14家全部通過，在效率上會比較快。我們期待如果能在3月底之前談完，120天的話，大概是在5月底看能否全部完成。"],["王委員鴻薇：我不知道在臺灣銷毀過期雞蛋還要這麼這麼長的時間，這個效率實在是……"],["陳代理部長駿季：相關的規範就在那邊，很抱歉。"],["王委員鴻薇：實在是非常非常的驚人，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。部長，每個委員都關心這個問題，它不會變成小雞，因為你們每天都在浪費電，所以要加油！","請丁學忠委員、丁學忠委員、丁學忠委員不在。","請徐富癸委員、徐富癸委員、徐富癸委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員不在。","請賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員不在。","請林思銘委員、林思銘委員、林思銘委員不在。","請馬文君委員、馬文君委員、馬文君委員不在。","請林沛祥委員、林沛祥委員、林沛祥委員不在。","請李彥秀委員、李彥秀委員、李彥秀委員不在。","請林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員不在。","請黃健豪委員、黃健豪委員、黃健豪委員不在。","請王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。","請何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","請林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員不在。","請麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員不在。","請游顥委員、游顥委員、游顥委員不在。","請顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員不在。","請伍麗華委員、伍麗華委員、伍麗華委員不在。","請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","請黃國昌委員、黃國昌委員、黃國昌委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員不在。","請賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者之外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。另有委員陳冠廷、徐富癸所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未答復的部分，請相關單位於一週之內以書面答復並副知本會。","本日所列議程處理完竣，星期三繼續開會，現在休息。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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那什麼時候可以銷毀到現在沒有銷毀"},{"start":191.377,"end":193.719,"text":"所以你現在到現在有超過5000萬顆雞蛋沒有銷毀那問題又變成是在縣市政府囉?"},{"start":208.328,"end":226.222,"text":"不是 我不是說限制政府 因為照規定齁這些你可以先告訴我一個時間 什麼時間之前你一定要把它銷毀這是留在這邊幹什麼我們的合約是120天之內 是啊120天之內 但是它是以取得限制政府同意以後的120天 我們才會處理"},{"start":228.524,"end":236.147,"text":"所以你現在要推給縣市政府因為遲遲沒有同意所以你這120天從什麼時候開始計算都不知道請問一下我們這樣增長這些進口雞蛋五千多萬顆這個流程有沒有問題啊我想跟委員說明第一個就是我們絕對不會把責任推到地方政府因為他是新的品項你會不會流到應該都變成有小雞出來啊"},{"start":254.019,"end":254.199,"text":"你給我個時間好嗎?"},{"start":273.717,"end":292.169,"text":"我本來是期待就是說縣市政府現在已經有4家可以的話4家就可以開始啟動陸續啟動這樣的話不用等到14家全部通過啦這樣的話效率會比較快啦那我們期待就是說120天的話能夠如果說3月底之前完的話大概在5月底開始可以全部把它完成"},{"start":292.509,"end":292.649,"text":"王鴻薇議員"}]}},{"id":"149263","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149263","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddbc17547c4d5abcc7f012038cf3c9e62ff8ba9b0039caa7a641895e42dd71fd715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"12:14:25 - 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口一萬多人,金門十萬人,澎湖十五萬人因為他現在的人口土地面積都不一樣嘛是不是所以他這裡面的結構已經行之有年了那麼卻由一個人不在馬祖心不在馬祖戶口在馬祖的人在那邊很像說這是我執政黨的資源我執政黨的優勢然後在那邊亂"},{"start":247.369,"end":258.443,"text":"不好吧所以那時候因為在選舉期間我也沒有去向衛福部去求證這個事情所以今天藉這個機會因為我這個人也是"},{"start":259.787,"end":277.347,"text":"很大量的人我不是那麼小氣我沒有那麼小氣而且從事醫療的服務我不是醫生但是我協助很多的病人馬祖尤其那麼遠的地方來這邊我都可以相當的協助我不是醫生但是我對"},{"start":279.286,"end":301.185,"text":"醫療的需求我是非常清楚的我是非常清楚的所以謝謝部長在這邊我向你求證不過有機會能夠把馬祖成為部立醫院我們的縣立醫院變成衛生所然後把我們的軍醫院能夠擴大變成部立醫院能夠跟金門一樣"},{"start":302.253,"end":324.822,"text":"因為他們的訴求是講說像金門你看成立部立醫院以後那邊的病人不要後送到台灣來據我瞭解每個月西腰山洞的飛機用單架送過來的40幾個人40幾個人也不是說成立部立醫院以後就在金門做外科手術就好了"},{"start":325.769,"end":353.932,"text":"一樣送來台灣做外科手術啊因為這個外科手術要很多橫向的互相的醫療的支援嘛部長是不是這樣不是說單一力量可以完成的你再有名的醫生到了金門到了澎湖你沒有他的協力醫院協力的醫生來協力麻醉科啊等等心臟科啊這些等等沒有協助他他一樣無法完成重大的手術嘛"},{"start":354.997,"end":369.083,"text":"部長是不是這樣子?是,沒有錯。那我想部長是不是有機會回去?有機會的話,如果馬祖能夠成立部立醫院,我也希望部長能夠成全。還是要評估啦。是的,因為現在縣立醫院很多的經費,"},{"start":370.407,"end":395.9,"text":"我們地方政府要出錢那我們的地方政府你曉得大概跟澎湖的財力差不多基本上因為有酒可以賣賺了一點錢我所以謝謝部長過去對我們馬祖醫療的支援跟協助還補助我們一些醫療的設備我想部長在這一個方面能夠允諾我繼續給馬祖這方面醫療的支援好不好好"},{"start":396.921,"end":406.261,"text":"這部分的話,我們一定是盡量來支持,這一次要改成部議院再要進入部部長也謝謝署裡面的長官,部裡面的長官也謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"149262","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149262","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd18503f4e91ff1434a874ae98c1f56169f8ba9b0039caa7a60cc001442e8e29285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:12:38 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12:20:29","影片長度":"00:07:51","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":471,"end_time":"2024-03-04T12:20:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T12:12:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1126,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時12分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴以及媒體記者女士先生。有請陳部長、農糧署的蘇代理署長以及農金署的李署長。"],["主席：我們請三位。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、兩位署長好。今天我要談的是農業保險。部長，你對我們的農業保險滿意嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我覺得在執行面還有很多改進的空間。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們看一下，27種品項、43張保單，有氣象參數型、政策連結型、區域收穫型及收入保障型，但是有一個是實損實賠型，對吧？要地面人員或空拍機勘損後判定災損才能理賠。農業保險的覆蓋率在2015年不到1%，到現在的8年後已經超過一半，你滿意嗎？你覺得這樣好嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：部分的品項不滿意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你看！其實在27個品項當中只有水稻、高粱、豬和牛是相當高，其他像是我們屏東的鳳梨、香蕉、木瓜、棗子、蓮霧、芭樂及芒果都是個位數，甚至不到1啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：感覺上這樣的農業保險覆蓋率可能是慘兮兮嘛！為什麼？為什麼這些水果的果農都不愛參加農業保險？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這幾個比較高的品項都是屬於政策型的保險……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我說比較低的啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：比較低的部分，事實上，我覺得農民的危機意識，以及保單的設計可能無法滿足農民的真正需求。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我告訴你兩點，第一就是農民的觀念，我常常告訴我們的農友，這個與進香搭遊覽車的團體保險一樣，你繳二、三十元出去，當然是希望不要得到理賠，保平安嘛！你保這個農業災害保險，最好是不要理賠啊！雖然保費被收走了，但是我沒發生損失，這樣是最好嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們漸漸聽懂了，但另外一個是保單的設計，在真的發生損害的時候，夭壽喔！明明有損害卻賠不到，這樣真是冤枉了，我繳那些保費要幹嘛，是不是這樣子？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我以相關的保險為例，這是一個實際的案例，他的耕地是東西向，但是保險公司以無人機去抽查，南北向飛啊！拍到的那塊剛好沒倒，但是他的整片田在西邊那邊全倒，如果是東西向飛就會看到他的耕地損害狀況，全貌，但是這樣南北向飛，就沒有看到，認為沒有損害，你認為這樣會不會有爭議？"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果是這樣，應該會有爭議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼保險公司要這樣做？因為保險公司要考量成本，所以我就找他們來協商，我問保險公司，你們的無人機應該要平均的飛，他說委員啊！無人機也很貴耶！如果每一區田都飛透透的話，收來的保險費都付給無人機公司，農民就賠不到了，好像也有道理。根據你們的規定，2019香蕉植株保險試辦期間，每鄉鎮航拍面積需大於投保面積10%，到了2020年已經提高為30%，要怎麼飛？不是每個種香蕉的都有保險，它就選擇有投保的，用最小的範圍去飛，每一區田都有拍到，是不是這樣子？換成是你，你也是會這樣飛嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這樣飛有符合我們的保約要求嗎？我們繼續往下看，在保單條款中只說「分區採樣，使用無人機技術分區定損」，採樣，採樣有科學根據，我用電話民調，1萬名客戶抽出1千戶就可以知道結果了，不需要打1萬支電話，但是這個科學根據在哪裡？我們聽到保險公司怎麼講？保險公司去找無人機飛，無人機飛什麼地方？他說禁航區要事先申請，很囉唆，所以就找專門挑沒有禁航的地方飛一飛，這樣就好了，有交代了，因為你說要採樣啊！這樣有符合你們的要求嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛！所以希望你們這個科學根據隨機抽樣要訂出一個規範，可以嗎？不是無人機公司要飛哪裡就飛，只要有沾到醬油就行了，這樣農民會不服嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想未來我們的精進，後續會和我們的農金局這邊討論，飛行路徑的規劃非常重要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，符合科學的抽樣標準，可以嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，這個可以，我們可以來改變。"],["鍾委員佳濱：往下一個，另外我要告訴你，其實無人機是不便宜，但是過去我們怎麼樣來看呢？不是只有災害時再來看，平常農糧署、平常農業部就要透過你們的遙測機，你們有飛機嘛！還有什麼？未來還有衛星、還有合成孔徑雷達，它從遙測的方式進行大面積的掃描，平常就可以記錄作物的生長狀況，有種嗎？有結果嗎？這些都能看的出來，災損的時候就比較不會有爭議，不然無人機飛過的地方，沒有拍攝到損害，根本是全倒了或是沒收，有爭議，為了這個方式，我們希望你們能夠擴大使用遙測機與衛星拍照，未來在技術上精進，讓我們大面積的掃描成為一個常態性的紀錄，可以嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以，這個部分我在前兩個月就已經和林業保育署的分所討論，因為我們現在有自己新的飛機。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以在生育期的部分，我們會想辦法利用不同的方式，因為有的改良場也有無人機，這個資料是否符合……"],["鍾委員佳濱：比對一下。"],["陳代理部長駿季：未來對於你有沒有種植，這個至少可以馬上解決。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，就是在爭議的時候，保險公司說沒有勘災到，你就是沒種嘛！有種沒種，農民可以拿出手機的app，總是要有一個方法，我現在都教農民用手機拍照作為佐證嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以未來需要一個爭議的調處機構，因為有了這些資料之後，我們來看一下，目前規定農會漁會擔任保險人的農業保險爭議調處辦法有兩個，一個是向農、漁會提出申訴，另外一個是找金管會依金消法設立之爭議處理機構調處。我覺得如果是向農、漁會申訴，他們的金融專業人員比較少、對保險的瞭解比較少，如果是找依金消法設立的調處機構，他們的農業專業人員也不足，未來是不是可以研議由農金署成立一個專門的爭議調處機制？因為商業產物保險還有保險公證人這種制度，你知道嗎？什麼是保險公證人，你知道嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：站在第三者立場，損失多少不是保險公司說了算數，也不是保戶說了算數，由保險公證人來做判定，你們未來可以考慮建立這個制度嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們可以來做研議，包括農會裡金融人員不足的部分，也許可以互相支援或是重新整合。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後一點，研議成立農業金融專屬爭議協調機構，你們3個月內提出書面報告，可以嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以。."],["鍾委員佳濱：另外，實損實付農業保險抽樣易遭投保農民質疑，請農業部1個月內檢討空拍抽樣方式，並修訂出程序規範，可以嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請研議定期以科技記錄農作產收的狀況，以利災前、災後的比對農作狀況，降低作物受損爭議，可以嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個我們已經在做了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：已經在做了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請把做出的成果向我們這邊回報一下。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝部長、謝謝兩位署長、謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請王鴻薇委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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那為什麼保險公司會要這樣做 因為保險公司考量成本 我找他們來協商 我跟保險公司說 你的無人機你們就賣這麼久了欸 他說委員啦 無人機也很久了欸 我如果叫他每一間餐廳都賣這麼久 收來賣這麼久 當然無人機公司都賣不了啦"},{"start":203.463,"end":214.878,"text":"好像有道理但你們規定20192019年相應到植株保險示範期間每鄉鎮的航拍面積要大於頭髮面積10%現在到2020年要提高到30%他怎麼費不是每一個省經濟都要保養嗎他就選擇有頭髮的用最小的"},{"start":219.043,"end":221.844,"text":"分區採樣使用無人機分區定損採樣採樣有科學根據啊我電話民調"},{"start":242.355,"end":262.81,"text":"一萬號KO我抽一千號我就知道要購買嘛我不用購買一萬號去電話嘛但是這個科學根據在哪裡保險公司我們聽到什麼樣講保險公司去找無人機飛無人機飛什麼地方他說進行去要飛要事先升級做得有所謂我就專門挑什麼沒有進行的地方飛一飛這樣就好了有高台你說採樣啊這樣有符合你們的要求嗎"},{"start":266.24,"end":268.501,"text":"所以我希望你們這個科學根據隨機抽樣 你們要訂出一個規範可以嗎?"},{"start":268.501,"end":272.204,"text":"比如說無人機公司說要配對就配 只要有溫度就好 這農民會不服嗎?我想未來我們的經濟 我們後續會跟我們的農經局這邊討論 飛行路徑的規劃非常重要對 這個符合科學的抽樣標準 可以嗎?對 這個可以 我們可以來改變"},{"start":289.234,"end":295.021,"text":"另外告訴你其實無人機是不便宜的但是過去我們怎麼樣來看呢?不是只有災後再來看平常農糧署、平常農業部叫透過什麼?透過你們的遙測機有飛機對不對?你有飛機嘛還有什麼?衛星還有核心孔鏡、雷達"},{"start":305.393,"end":333.235,"text":"他從遙測的方式他是大面積的掃描平常就可以記錄作物的生長狀況有沒有有症沒有有結果沒有都看得出來災損的時候比較不會有爭議不然無人機飛過的地方沒有飛的地方他說有損害就滾滾的都倒了是沒收有爭議所以為了這個方式我們希望你們能夠擴大使用遙測機跟衛星拍照為了在自己的地方精進讓我們的大面積的掃描成為一個常態性的記錄可以嗎"},{"start":333.848,"end":333.948,"text":"比對一下"},{"start":351.756,"end":355.498,"text":"對於未來有沒有種植,這個至少可以馬上解決。"},{"start":367.065,"end":383.536,"text":"所以未來需要一個什麼?需要一個爭議的調處機構因為有了這些資料之後我們來看一下目前的規定可以怎樣?農業漁會等等保險人的農業保險爭議調處辦法他有兩個一個是跟農漁會提出申訴另外一個去找金管會管的經銷法設置的爭議處理調處基礎"},{"start":386.678,"end":413.96,"text":"我認為如果農業部長去審查他們金融專業人員比較少對保險的了解比較少那如果去找什麼去找目前之前我們的那個不講了就是根據經銷法所定的他們對農業專業人員不足是不是可以未來研議由農金屬來成立一個專門的爭議調處機制因為阿祖是商業保險、產物保險還有保險公證人你知不知道什麼叫保險公證你知道嗎我知道"},{"start":414.901,"end":442.404,"text":"站在第三層,不然說這順勢多,不是不然說說,也不是保護說的算數由保險公認人來做個判定,你們未來可以考慮建立這個制度嗎?我們可以來做研議,包括農會裡面有關於金融聯盟部組的部分,也許可以互相可以去支援,或者是整合啦好,那我就是最後一點了,就是研議成立農業金融專屬的爭議協調機構好,阿你上個月提出書面報告可以嗎?可以"},{"start":443.825,"end":457.249,"text":"另外,時損時負的農業保險抽樣一遭投保農民質疑．請農業部一個月內檢討空賣的抽樣方式．並修訂出程序規範．還有,請研議定期用科技的紀錄 農作產生的狀況．以利災前災後的比較農作狀況．降低作物受損的爭議．"}]}},{"id":"149261","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149261","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd545f4993c42b5b89baff13691fd5102bf8ba9b0039caa7a61128cb8e9f3039315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:58:51 - 12:13:10","影片長度":"00:14:19","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":859,"end_time":"2024-03-04T12:13:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:58:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":793,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時58分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：召委好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。首先本席想要了解一下，部長，請你回想一下唸國小的時候，你還記得當時的作息怎麼安排嗎？大概幾點起床、幾點就寢？"],["潘部長文忠：大概5、6點就起床啦！晚上9點就會睡覺。"],["林委員宜瑾：上個月有一家補習班在臉書貼出一對兄妹的一週作息，每天早上不到6點就起床練習寫習題，之後是到國小上課，放學後要在車上寫作業，隨後馬上去補習班補數學、英文，補完課之後又抽空在車上吃晚餐，然後繼續去練鋼琴，練完琴之後再回家唸英文，所以晚上11點半才上床睡覺，隔天又是不到6點就起床，這樣算一算，每天大約只睡六個半小時左右。","這個貼文一出來引起很大的討論，很多人都認為他們的行程排的這麼滿，真的是時間管理大師。補習班老師和家長則是認為這對兄妹樂於學習，因為他們也樂在其中。家長這樣的安排，其實就是讓孩子有計畫的唸書、學習，這對孩子來說是正向的教育方式。可是我們也會想，國小正是身體成長的階段，一天却只睡6.5小時，其實連醫生都說長期的睡眠不足會導致健康、身心發展受到影響，我認為這對兄妹的行程，看起來好像也是現在全台灣多數的國中小或高中生的生活作息加強版。也就是說，現在很多臺灣的家長都是望子成龍、望女成鳳，學生或許真的因為父母的要求，對自己也很有要求，把每天的行程都塞得很滿。可是根據2023年臺灣的兒福聯盟調查報告，臺灣有九成以上的國高中生每天睡不到八小時，37%睡五到六個小時，甚至有12.6%睡不到五小時。","如果比照美國國家睡眠基金會建議的睡眠時間，六到十三歲一定要睡滿九到十一個小時，十四到十七歲是八到十小時，臺灣的學生很明顯是連人家睡眠時間的低標都不到。單就學童的睡眠問題，部長剛剛有提到您小時候，所以我認為你一定認同一天只睡6.5小時不夠，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：在成長中的孩子絕對不夠，連大人我都認為如果低於七個小時，長期對身體健康應該也有負面影響。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，所以現在我們已經延後高中生八點再到校，國中小好像也禁止早自習考試，不曉得教育部有沒有掌握各校的到校時間，或是早自習有沒有確實禁止考試這件事情，執行率怎樣？我知道這是各縣市政府的職責，可是不曉得教育部有沒有掌握這件事情？"],["潘部長文忠：跟召委報告，確實剛才召委的分享，回饋到我們現在所提到的，為什麼當時要讓高中生有一個規範，因為高中已經是比較大學區了，很多孩子為了早到，又要提早更早，所以當時考慮到學生在學習，還有身體發展、休息等等而做了這個政策。當時也談論到早自息為什麼不得考試，因為一旦考試學生就要面對，要更早起來準備，所以這兩個政策，我想教育部以正式的函頒要求縣市跟學校遵循。當然執行之後我也請國教署這邊持續注意，因為這個基本上本來就是教學正常化裡面，一個非常重要的基本規範。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長的回答很棒，我們確實要讓孩子睡眠充足，其實家庭也占很大的因素，家長怎麼去配置孩子的生活？除了透過讓家長敦促孩子睡眠充足以外，教育部是不是還有更精進的作為？像是怎麼宣導睡眠相關的健康教育，或者輔導所謂的減輕壓力等等，我想這個還可以再討論。","我想再跟您討論的是，像這家補習班貼出這篇文章，其實間接洩漏了學生的身分，我覺得這有助長或形成國小生鐵人這種風氣的疑慮。這篇貼文雖然好像有把孩子的臉碼掉，可是去識別化沒有做整套，因為貼文中有附該生才藝表演的影片連結，甚至只要點進去影片連結，就看得到孩子的全貌和全名。如果有心人士循著蛛絲馬跡找到學生的資訊，我覺得這都是很大的疑慮。補習班看起來是在分享優秀學生的表現和生活經驗，其實很明顯就是在廣告宣傳，這樣子的廣告宣傳，我們是否也要有一些指導或改善方式？","無論如何，我認為教育部身為最高的主管機關，我想部長您對這則貼文應該是非常有意見，我是覺得還是要有實際的作為，如何輔導補習班在廣告形象的同時，也要保護學生，並且還是要傳達所謂的適當作息？"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝召委，我想該個案發生的過程，媒體與社會各界都有關心，雖然補習班表示有獲得家長的同意公布，但學生個資的保護是法律的範疇。所以這部分我有請終身司，因為是補習班的相關主管單位，未來在個資保護的方面，不是由誰授權同意即可。除了藉由各縣市業務單位的聯席會報加強規範跟督導，針對補習班如果違反這部分，未來我們也會要求依法做相關的查處，因為這確實是不當，先不要說這個理念如何，我想對於個資的保護是法律明文規定，我們應該要求其遵循。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝部長，再來還是跟您討論一下巴黎奧運的備戰狀況，巴黎奧運距離現在剩不到五個月，我相信署長一定會說我們代表隊已經準備好了，我們也一定要有這樣的信心。回顧我們的東京奧運，剛剛林委員也有提到，我們拿到兩金四銀六銅，這是我們歷屆以來最好的成績。可是當時代表隊出發的時候，發生選手搭乘經濟艙，行政人員搭乘商務艙的爭議，搞到當初的體育署長請辭，隔了一年才找到優秀的世忠署長。","我們再追溯一些其他國際賽的重大爭議，2015年7月的世界青少年田徑錦標賽，我們的青少年撐竿跳選手葉耀文，人都到了南美洲的比賽地點，才發現竿子沒有送到，所以他被迫棄賽，也是全場唯一棄權的選手。還有一件也滿嚴重的，就是我們的「亞洲貓王」體操選手唐嘉鴻，去年原本要出國參加世界盃的比賽，原本他在師大的練習都非常OK，結果比賽前回到國訓中心做一些行前測驗的時候，發生了左腳阿基里斯腱斷裂。幸好後來經過復健，加上選手很積極與強大的心理素質，讓他可以迅速回到場上，所以這次巴黎奧運還是有拿到門票。","這幾天我們看到奧運主辦國有羽球公開賽，去參加的王麒麟選手昨天也在社群特別提到，在當地有人的行李被偷，還有人的房間被闖入，而且那間本來是戴資穎的房間。林林總總想請教部長跟署長，我們這次代表隊選手的機位要怎麼安排？這次的比賽地點在巴黎，所以路程滿遙遠的，我看了我們奧運代表團機票運輸往返的決標公告，有商務艙、豪華經濟艙、經濟艙三種艙等，不曉得艙等怎麼分配？"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員，因為委員是運動的愛好者跟推動者，所以這些細節都關心，也了解的非常清楚。我也跟委員報告，東京奧運在選手、教練的機位安排上有一些差錯，之後我們也啟動跨部會，而且我也拜託次長跟署長親自調度，所以即使是亞運這麼大團，最後也跟選手協商，至少是豪華經濟艙這個等級以上，過程也都算順利，因為亞運實在太龐大了。","這一次巴黎的部分，我們一定都是商務艙，因為團隊不會像亞運這麼龐大，而且目前就已經規劃是長榮直航，讓選手、教練和職員是以最舒適的方式抵達巴黎。因為這對選手的戰力很關鍵，所以這個安排從最近的世大運、亞運的模擬演練，大概都已經過考驗，也會以這樣的方式安排。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。"],["潘部長文忠：另外後續在巴黎現場的支援當然很重要，所以體育署還有我們幾個專家，已經前後兩次到巴黎去了解比賽場地的準備，還有我們中繼站的後勤這塊。剛才委員有提到選手各項的設備、比賽用具，這些一定是要盤整再盤整，針對這次羽球選手的行李遭竊，剛才署長也有說會再增置安全官特別協助選手、關照前前後後。"],["林委員宜瑾：因地制宜。"],["潘部長文忠：有個案發生我們就務實的去檢討，在機制上可以怎麼做，所以我想這段時間幾個種類的運動選手們都很努力，目前已經有25張門票，而且還在陸續增加中，我想這些準備我們一定會用最大的力量來支持選手跟教練。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝部長，最後我簡短一句話，黃金計畫其實是我們奧運代表隊或國家代表隊一個很重要的計畫，功不可沒，所以我非常肯定黃金計畫。我想這個計畫真的前前後後造就了很多優秀的選手，可是還是有一些遺珠之憾，有些很優秀的選手還是沒辦法加入這個行列，我覺得這部分我們還可以再檢討。","我們當然很開心黃金計畫有升級加入職業選手的黃金計畫3.0，包括謝淑薇和高球名將潘政琮都有進去，我是希望能滾動式的調整，最好是讓有潛力的年輕新星也可以加入黃金計畫的行列。因為時間的關係，還請讓黃金計畫再更加黃金，把這個計畫做好，才能培育我們國家優秀的選手"],["潘部長文忠：OK，我們朝這方向，因為黃金計畫從1.0在很短的時間內進化到3.0，就是聽到選手、教練他們真正實際的要求，確實是支持選手訓練一個很重要的支撐，我們會持續精進，謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝部長、署長、主席。"],["主席：接下來請吳春城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","林倩綺","林宜瑾","吳春城","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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這個行程排那麼滿 這個真的是時間管理大師喔"},{"start":83.234,"end":104.138,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":104.218,"end":131.118,"text":"可是當然我們會想說國小其實在成長的階段那如果一天只睡6.5小時連醫生都說長期的睡眠不足會導致健康身心的發展會有影響那我是認為說這對兄妹的這種所謂的形成看起來好像也是現在全台灣多數的國小或國中生或高中生生活作息的加強版"},{"start":133.26,"end":147.747,"text":"目前臺灣的家長都是望子成龍、望女成鳳學生或許也真的因為父母的要求﹖對自己他也很有要求﹖所以把每天的行程都塞得很滿可是根據2023年臺灣兒福聯盟的調查報告我們臺灣有九成以上的國高中生是每天睡不到8個小時"},{"start":155.311,"end":158.033,"text":"有37%是睡5到6個小時甚至有12.6%睡不到5個小時如果比照美國國家睡眠基金會提到的建議睡眠時間"},{"start":170.84,"end":195.013,"text":"他建議6到13歲是一定要睡到9到11個小時那14到17歲就是8到10小時所以台灣學生很明顯是連睡眠時間的低標都不到人家的低標都不到那所以單就這個學童的睡眠時間當然部長剛剛您的您說您小時候那所以我認為你一定會認為一天只睡6.5小時一定是不夠對不對"},{"start":196.327,"end":204.297,"text":"在成長中的孩子絕對不夠年大人我認為如果第7個小時其實長期對身體健康應該是有負面的影響"},{"start":205.337,"end":234.279,"text":"對,所以現在我們已經延後高中生8點再到校嘛然後國小,國中小好像也禁止這個找自習考試那所以我想教部不曉得有沒有掌握就是說各校對於這個到校的時間喔或者是說找自習有沒有確實禁止考試這件事情不曉得他們執行率怎樣因為我這是各縣市政府的職責可是不曉得就教部有沒有掌握"},{"start":236.86,"end":259.493,"text":"張偉報告,確實剛才張偉用這個分享回饋到我們現在所提到的為什麼要讓當時高中學生有一個規範因為高中已經是比較大學區了很多孩子為了太早到不知道又提早更早所以當時也考慮到就是學生在學習還有身體發展休息等等的必要做這個政策"},{"start":260.673,"end":287.094,"text":"當時也才論到早上作息裡面為什麼不得用考試因為一旦考試學生就開始要面對更早所以這兩個的政策我想教育部以正式的函班要縣市跟學校來遵循當然這個執行之後我也請國教署可能持續注意因為這個基本上本來就是教學正常化裡面一個非常重要的基本的規範"},{"start":288.955,"end":313.411,"text":"當然就是說剛剛那個部長回答得很棒就是說我們確實是要讓孩子這個睡眠充足那除了啦我們當然這個其實家庭也有很大的因素就家長怎麼樣去配置孩子的生活所以除了怎麼透過就是說讓家長去敦促孩子睡眠充足之外就教育部是不是還有更精進的作為像說"},{"start":314.972,"end":318.997,"text":"如何宣導睡眠相關的健康教育或者輔導所謂的減輕壓力等等我想這個還可以再討論可是我想要再跟您討論是說像這家補習班貼出這篇文章其實它是間接洩漏了學生的身份"},{"start":334.475,"end":349.972,"text":"我覺得這個其實對於這個助長好像這個國小生這個鐵人形成這種風氣我就好像在助長這個有這個疑慮在那這篇貼文他雖然好像有把這個孩子的這個臉有碼掉可是"},{"start":351.954,"end":376.11,"text":"他去識別化沒有做整套為什麼因為他貼文有連結這個學生的才藝表演的影片連結所以你只要點進去那個影片連結看得到孩子的全貌而且他的全名所以如果有新人士他要循著這個蛛絲馬跡去找到學生的資訊或幹嘛幹嘛的我覺得這都是一個很大的疑慮所以我想說就補習班"},{"start":376.63,"end":376.81,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":406.049,"end":434.053,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":434.173,"end":434.213,"text":"主席"},{"start":453.656,"end":457.62,"text":"除了在相關縣市的業務單位的聯席匯報來做加強希望做一個規範跟督導那對於補習班如果違反這部分我們未來也會要求能夠依照這方面來做一個相關的查組因為這個確實是不當先不要說這個理念如何"},{"start":476.3,"end":476.74,"text":"巴黎奧運距離現在剩不到5個月"},{"start":497.279,"end":500.923,"text":"我相信署長一定會說我們代表隊已經準備好了我們也一定要有這樣的信心那我們來回顧我們這個東京奧運就剛剛林委員也有提到我們其實拿到兩金四銀六銅這是歷屆以來我們奧運最好的成績可是"},{"start":519.342,"end":545.852,"text":"當代表隊出發的時候發聲選手搭乘經濟艙然後行政人員搭乘商戶艙這樣的爭議搞到當初的體育署長請辭喔那隔了一年才找到我們優秀的市中部長市中署長好那我們再來追溯其他的一些重大的一些國際賽的重大爭議我們來看2015年7月的世界青少"},{"start":548.008,"end":562.641,"text":"世界青少年田徑錦標賽我們的那個青少年的選手撐竿跳選手葉耀文人都到了南美洲的比賽地點才發現說竿子沒有送到所以他被迫棄賽也是全場唯一棄權的選手"},{"start":564.502,"end":587.774,"text":"還有一件也蠻嚴重就是我們的亞洲貓王我們的體操選手唐嘉宏去年原本要出國參加一個世界盃的比賽那比賽前回到國訓中心他在比賽前其實在世大的練習都非常的OK那他去國訓中心去做一些行前測驗的時候發生了左腳阿基里斯腱斷裂那就"},{"start":590.896,"end":591.337,"text":"獲得門票獲得門票"},{"start":608.16,"end":622.551,"text":"有與球的公開賽去參加的王麒麟選手他昨天在社群才特別提到說在當地有人的行李被偷還有人的房間被闖入那一間的房間本來是戴志穎的房間"},{"start":625.219,"end":639.77,"text":"林明總總想請教部長跟署長就是說我們這次代表隊的選手機位要怎麼安排那這次的比賽地點在巴黎那所以這個路程蠻遙遠的那我看了我們奧運代表團的這些這個機票運輸往返的絕標的公告有商務艙有豪華經濟艙也有經濟艙三種艙等那不曉得艙等怎麼分配"},{"start":654.93,"end":669.541,"text":"謝謝委員因為委員是運動的愛好者跟推動者所以這些細節都關心的了解的非常清楚我也跟委員報告東京奧運當然在選手教練的這些機會安排有一些差錯"},{"start":670.262,"end":670.522,"text":"﹚林宜瑾"},{"start":692.625,"end":698.747,"text":"這次巴黎的這部分我們一定都是在商務艙因為他團隊不會像亞運這麼龐大而且目前就已經規劃就是長榮直航讓選手教練對職員是以最舒適的方式抵達巴黎這個是在因為這個對選手戰力是很有關鍵所以這個安排從最近的世大運亞運的模擬演練"},{"start":719.714,"end":719.814,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":745.467,"end":745.527,"text":"因抵制矣"},{"start":760.586,"end":763.849,"text":"有個案發生我們就務實地去檢討在機制上可以怎麼的做所以我想這段時間我想幾個運動種類選手很努力目前已經有25張門票而且還在陸續增加總號我想這些準備我們一定會用最大的力量來支持選手跟教練"},{"start":779.205,"end":806.775,"text":"謝謝部長最後我簡單一句話就是說黃金計畫其實是真的讓我們這個奧運代表隊也好或者是我們的這個國家代表隊也好一個很重要的一個計畫功不可沒那所以我非常肯定黃金計畫那我想這個計畫真的前前後後其實造就了很多的那個我們好優秀的選手可是還是有一些遺珠之憾有些很優秀的還是沒有辦法列入這個行列我覺得這部分我們還可以再檢討"},{"start":807.995,"end":837.995,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":838.355,"end":838.575,"text":"吳春誠委員"}]}},{"id":"149260","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149260","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddde194a43aeb6ca7924df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a6c86df9d5e1265cba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"11:59:59 - 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謝謝"},{"start":10.956,"end":17.079,"text":"市長,在剛開始開會到現在,兇手就是你了。大家都在美冠馬主委說他改這個帝國,在這裡面我認為我們台灣國會這個議員,我們也覺得應該要捍衛台灣的主權,因為我覺得長久以來,"},{"start":37.728,"end":45.633,"text":"大家發生事情的時候,大家都不滿意,因為在這個地步的時候,你能夠跟主委說,是怎樣你不可以跟主席說呢?他是沒辦法接受你說的,還是你根本就不跟他說,再來在現在你所介紹的,說實在,我推的海巡署,說實在,非常可憐,非常無奈,"},{"start":68.128,"end":80.373,"text":"因為你說常常聲聲鼓鼓說捍衛我們海巡署我們的兄弟啦吼,但是在這個過程當中,自1994年到現在,每個人每個人每個人啦,我又看不到說,每個人來到這裡,是要為台灣還是為阿強啦,全部覺得是阿強的"},{"start":95.026,"end":97.007,"text":"會受罰嗎?阿強阿說什麼?跟我們來附和他?因為若說後路衛啦,在本縣的林地啦,車輛,騎機車的車輛,跟騎機車的車騎,那是停車的地捏。"},{"start":113.444,"end":119.025,"text":"你如果在做筆錄的時候,我覺得不小心把你站上去,或是我若你把你收攏,那時候做的是不一樣的。所以在這個單位,我覺得你要說清楚,是怎樣你會去質疑說,不能說收攏,要說收站。"},{"start":138.915,"end":141.6,"text":"你如果這樣太浪費的時候說實話這就是惡質啦"},{"start":145.302,"end":152.167,"text":"因為常常我們都說要捍衛台灣移民的權益及主管的權益,但回到過去以來,我覺得我們真的,我們的海巡署在做的時候,我們是如何打擊它,再來在這裡面,到目前為止,你有的說不能公開不能公開,這樣本事讓你們問一下,"},{"start":171.099,"end":177.426,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛你所講的我們都能夠體諒那您剛剛說的我們就是一個執法就是一個單一的事件那今天這麼一個單一的執法事件"},{"start":192.483,"end":192.623,"text":"王美惠議員"},{"start":215.077,"end":215.597,"text":"王美惠"},{"start":233.829,"end":245.793,"text":"王美惠 非常有效的 因為這次有人過往 因為我相信台灣跟阿強都沒有關係我們都不希望發生這種事 我們要找出問題出來 要怎麼處理才對雖然他經常去我們家 但是我們也認識 他是我們的朋友 我相信我們也沒有關係"},{"start":260.217,"end":269.739,"text":"沒錯沒錯,我們都不願意發生這樣的憾事,但是我們今天我們的專案小組到金門談了這麼多天,從15號我們的專案小組長就帶著我們的調查組長,我們15號就已經進出,他們20號才來。師長我再請教一下,搞不好政委委員會還要求我們海巡視的人過一邊讓他們調查"},{"start":289.241,"end":293.584,"text":"因為我必須要跟委員報告我們雙方協議就是我們之間的會談的內容我們不要公開來 市長 不公開的時候因為說實在"},{"start":319.19,"end":327.136,"text":"他們本身會去提起這個應該是多少有這個事情即使你要如何捍衛台灣不是說他們要求的就是要如何處理本身站在這裡是要捍衛我們台灣的資金但因為事情發生的時候我們要如何來處理因為不管是什麼人對不對"},{"start":346.271,"end":348.152,"text":"畢竟有兩個人過往的,我們就是要理清這個事情出來啦,不外乎會說,你們這啦,民進黨這間啦,又跳在那裡霧啦,跟在那裡暗冷球啦。"},{"start":362.295,"end":364.516,"text":"第一點,我們在這個整起事件上面"},{"start":382.06,"end":392.392,"text":"路芳一直要求一個真相,我們也追求一個真相所以我們要請我們的司法調查完了之後,這個真相出來如果有救責,有我們的責任,我們絕對不規避"},{"start":401.984,"end":402.424,"text":"王美惠主席"},{"start":423.467,"end":440.502,"text":"因為這是我們基層就是地方的事務我們直接海巡對海巡就聯絡了就可以做這件事情而且每次都會強調在雙方各自管轄的水域裡面做執法這個都是我們的溪區平常我必須要跟委員報告律委律委"},{"start":449.349,"end":478.208,"text":"但是我要跟委員報告我們現在整個跟不管是家屬或者是對方的代表團紅十字會的這些顧問我們的重點就擺在我們希望能夠對死亡的家屬能夠多一點照顧這也是我們國內很多的公教團體或者是我們的這些公益團體都有拜託我們希望我們能夠多照顧這樣子的一個家屬這是我們一直秉持的一個"},{"start":478.848,"end":486.734,"text":"當然這一定要由司法判決之後就是調查的結果出來之後跟社會大眾做一個說明所以我們不能說我們對我們不能這樣講因為路芳也會說她沒有錯我覺得這是一個很正常的一個形象"},{"start":506.348,"end":510.772,"text":"最後跟委員再做一個報告就是我們整個這個協商的過程當中我們最重要的一點就是說我們如何雙方避免未來在金下水域"},{"start":532.409,"end":532.529,"text":"王美惠"},{"start":546.4,"end":565.456,"text":"如果陸方就讓他 反正這三回沒辦法處理也要處理 不能太軟弱我們就是希望我們避免未來再發生類似的案事 這是我們希望好 來 署長 最好我來請教一下 到現在目前為止 您的協調後 您的名字寫什麼來 您說一下 您的協商 什麼名字"},{"start":575.598,"end":582.019,"text":"您的協商,您要去協商要寫什麼啊?您協商,好來,來,協商,來,協商過程的名稱我們都是一律使用彈劃紀要,彈劃紀要,是,阿沒說弄到阿沒說碰撞阿沒說什麼,我就是說到2月14日發生這件事"},{"start":604.548,"end":607.673,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":620.572,"end":624.875,"text":"我們都還在努力我們各方面都在努力我剛剛特別強調我們就是希望能夠在人道關懷的立場一定要對家屬提供很好的照顧"},{"start":645.373,"end":650.579,"text":"因為我認為,署長你說這樣是大家都認同的,去到後生者要讓他們照顧,但我們看到,副主席顧民東、副主席去告他們,說回來要立民進棟駕駛,我覺得很奇怪,是要駕駛什麼"},{"start":667.093,"end":672.496,"text":"因為關心事情,我們是要求書論書來處理才對啊!你看他這樣,很高興的!跟他們國台辦的主任說回來要立法院進黨到時,哎呦,不要這樣啦!相為在台灣,回到什麼事情?我們是要合作來解決問題才對啦!不是在外面,要罵台灣人啦!這樣說實在啦!沒辦法啦!"},{"start":697.691,"end":705.678,"text":"因為我看到這樣,我也覺得很奇怪,去到外國,跟他在台灣人,你看台灣人的退休金,加上美南台灣啊,你看他不是民進黨的,是黨的。首長,你有覺得我說這樣,他說要回家的時候,你們還是覺得是民進黨的嗎?"},{"start":723.746,"end":724.186,"text":"非常謝謝王美惠委員"}]}},{"id":"149259","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149259","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddda72cf9ec922193ba4df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a6b28a51474f1c8f3f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"11:47:20 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11:59:47","影片長度":"00:12:27","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":747,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:59:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:47:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1047,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（11時47分）請署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：署長，剛剛聽你這樣子說，我覺得名稱其實對後續的影響很大，對不對？就是「撞船」、「碰撞」什麼一大堆的。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我不能講名稱的影響不大，因為現在專案小組已經在那邊跟他們談了14輪。"],["張委員宏陸：我只問這個對後續的影響大不大？"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然會有影響。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：因為這個事關責任的歸屬，我方的立場一直非常明確，我們希望經由我方司法公正的調查，同時剛剛委員也都有提到，還要有第三方的公正單位，不光是只有檢調的調查、海事的調查或是各種的勘驗，也要請第三公正單位來看這些物理現象、海事規則，以及他們在習慣上所產生的結果。為什麼我們要把這些資料全部都提供檢調，而不對這些資料發表任何的言論？因為我們尊重臺灣的司法制度，我們不可以講一大堆有的沒有的去影響這件事情。","同時我也要跟委員報告，這段時間，就是從2月14日之後，我們的同仁承受很大的壓力，因為我們也希望我們的同仁不要對外去講這件事情，但是他們的心理受到非常大的煎熬。不但是我們的同仁，我們同仁的眷屬也受到很大的壓力，因為外界對這件事情一直有非常多的揣測，我們對這件事情所做的報告僅止於我們所瞭解的，檢調所調查的部分我們是不可以公開的，我們不可以把這些資料，譬如：雷達的資料，如果我今天可以把這個資料拿來現場給大家看一下，我相信各位馬上就會有一個公評，但是我們不能做這件事情，因為這是檢調專業的事情。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，這個你剛剛已經說了，我問你，有一件事情可不可以讓大家知道？我們的船艇現在停在哪裡？就是那天追逐的那艘船。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們的船艇跟另外那一艘快艇現在全部都被扣押在金門刑大，檢調委託金門刑大將船艇扣押在我們海巡隊的廣場上，現在已經扣押在那邊了。"],["張委員宏陸：在廣場上嘛！對不對？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["張委員宏陸：有保密說誰都不能看嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們有規定不可以讓任何人看。"],["張委員宏陸：不可以讓任何人看？"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，有覆蓋。"],["張委員宏陸：好，我問一下，副主委，我不知道這個可不可以透露？我們的船艇有任何的破損或是擦撞的痕跡嗎？或是有我們主動撞人的痕跡嗎？這個可不可以透露？"],["周副主任委員美伍：這個內容我不知道恰不恰當透露？但是就我方的報告，我不知道檢方的報告，我們跟……"],["張委員宏陸：以你們海巡署的立場，警車去追小偷無照駕駛等等，我們的警車有沒有破損或是怎樣，這個大家都可以看的嘛！對不對？所以我就問，我們這艘船艇有沒有破損？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們沒有破損。"],["張委員宏陸：署長，你說沒有破損？"],["周副主任委員美伍：對。"],["張委員宏陸：好，在沒有破損的情況下，如果這艘船艇有故意去撞擊，就像剛剛說的，有故意去撞擊這艘「三無船舶」，依你多年的經驗，我們的船艇會不會受損？"],["周副主任委員美伍：因為兩邊都是FRP材質，依照40節這樣高速的速度衝撞過去，我認為最起碼會有一個凹痕或是破洞。其實那天我們在吊這2個證物時，媒體記者也都有拍攝，左右舷360度都有拍到，不管是我們的船或對方的船，360度都沒有任何的凹陷或者破洞，只有左舷後六分之一處有一個欄杆壓到的裂痕，這個我們有一張圖。"],["張委員宏陸：你可以公布的就給大家看一下。"],["周副主任委員美伍：因為這是我們自己的調查，因為第一時間海巡隊要做初步的調查。圖片上這個是我們的船，各位有沒有看到任何的破洞？有沒有看到？既然這張圖我已經拿出來了，那我就跟各位報告一下，它的長是11.6米，我們的長只有9.6米；它的寬是2.7米，我們的寬是2.8米；它的深是1.85米，我們的深是0.7米，所以這不是外界所說的，我們是用一艘很大的海巡船去把人家的漁船給撞翻了，這是外面講的。這是事實，照片上這個就是我們被扣押的證物，這是我們內部的調查，這跟檢調無關，我還是要強調，所有的事實和真相一定要由檢調來說明，我們不能說。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，不是，署長，給檢調的我們當然知道，但是剛剛署長也有提到，當天處理這個的時候，其實媒體也有拍到，對不對？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我們的船沒有任何的損害，只有一點點小擦撞，對不對？但你敢保證這個擦撞是這次造成的嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我不能這樣講。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：因為、但是……"],["張委員宏陸：副主委，你先聽我講完，依照國際慣例，我們在取締非法船隻時，只要它不停船，我們當然就會慢慢的靠近，因為我們要登船臨檢，所以偶爾會有碰撞，對不對？是不是這樣？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我還是要強調，因為還有另外一個場景委員沒有考量到，就是陸方的船翻覆後，我們的船第一時間在做什麼事？全部都在救人，因為我下的第一個命令就是以救人為主，那天我就在海巡署勤指中心，副署長當天是總值日官，因為連續假期，我儘量都不離開署裡面，所以他們第一時間回報時，我立刻就下指令，所以沒有延誤30分鐘這些，這些都不是事實，我們第一時間就處理了。","到底這個船隻是怎麼回事？或者是有什麼狀況？因為後來檢方要求扣押這2艘船，所以我們要把他們吊到陸岸上，不可以讓他們在水裡面，照片上是我們把他們吊到陸岸上的過程，媒體也有拍到這個照片，不是我們要刻意透露這個照片。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我知道，所以現在我這個立法委員要質詢你，現在有一個事實很清楚，就是我們海巡署的船艇沒有刻意的去撞人家，而且整艘船不能說完好無缺，但是我們根本沒有任何的破損，這點是不是要說給全國聽？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。另外我要強調，後續因為我們在救援的過程中，我們有救援的照片，因為我們的CP-1051船要靠近翻覆的小艇，就是這張照片，你看，我們一直在跟它接觸，為什麼？因為我們要跳下去救人，我們的人還上去他們的船把那3位生還者先撈起來，有1位我們一直沒有找到，所以後來我們就緊急的馬上派潛水人員與船過去，我們的潛水人員在第二次下去後才在駕駛艙找到這個船長，這就是整個事實和救援的過程。我們從開始的碰撞，到現在的雷達軌跡現象，相關時間序，如果是1時10分的話，我們3時50分就把最後一個人救起來了，3個小時內我們就把4個人從失事的水域裡救起來了，這個各位也可以去追查一下，依照過往的救生與救難經驗，是不是能夠這麼快速的把所有人都救起來？那天我們海巡隊幾乎是傾全隊之力，那天現場有7艘船在執行這個救援，我們的潛水人員跳下去後就一直在找，說我們沒有積極救援，這點我必須要為我們的同仁叫屈。"],["張委員宏陸：好，署長，其實……"],["周副主任委員美伍：另外我還要強調，每一個獲救的人員送上岸的時候，救護車是消防局的，每一個救護車上面都有錄影，也有時間，那個時間就可以證明我們有沒有延誤。第一個身亡的那一位、就是溺斃的這一位，我們救到他的時候好像是1時33分，如果我沒有記錯的話，我們2點鐘就把他送到碼頭，2時2分、3時5分救護車就到現場，為什麼？因為我們在海上就已經請勤指中心申請救護車到最近的碼頭，我們把人送上車後也一直在急救。"],["張委員宏陸：好，署長，因為時間的關係，我這樣的結論你看對不對？第一個，從我們船艇的現狀來看，這不像外界所說的，我們是故意去衝撞而造成它的翻覆。依照你剛剛所講的，我認為結論應該是這樣，這是第一個，沒有錯嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["張委員宏陸：第二個，你們有積極的救援，剛剛署長說的就是這樣，對不對？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以問題要講出來，而且署長，之前我在質詢時就有要求你們要挺海巡弟兄，要錢給錢、要什麼給什麼，我們都是這樣，我們希望他們能夠積極執法，對不對？你要讓海巡弟兄感覺到你這個長官是挺他們的。我也覺得後續、未來我們也要積極的執法，我們不能因為這件事情，如果以後這樣的船舶都過來，讓我們的漁民將苦無生計，我們的國安也會出現漏洞，我覺得這個才是我們現在要有的態度，對不對？","至於你剛才說的海巡的堅持，如果用撞船會影響後續，這個你今天這樣講大家就都知道了，所以你必須要很清楚的跟大家講，我剛剛所講的這幾點結論是不是都沒有錯？"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們還是要強調，現在所有的資訊和證據都已經送給檢調，我們不能夠下定論，這個一定要由檢調來做一個公正的調查。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，署長，要由檢調公正的去調查，那是民主法治的臺灣應該要遵守的，不管是立法委員或是總統都應該要遵守，但是我剛才所詢問你的，你也回答了，我們的船沒有壞，這些都是事實，對不對？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["張委員宏陸：記者也都有拍到，這些都是事實就要讓大家知道，對不對？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["周副主任委員美伍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝張宏陸委員的質詢，謝謝！也非常謝謝署長的回應。","有請王美惠委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","張啓楷"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案：\n翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130501_00018"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.8915937500000001,"end":0.9422187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.9422187500000001,"end":2.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.012843750000002,"end":8.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.164718750000002,"end":8.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.379718750000002,"end":16.450343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.83409375,"end":18.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.137843750000002,"end":18.188468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.39096875,"end":20.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.610343750000002,"end":19.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.078468750000003,"end":21.934718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.22159375,"end":24.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.32284375,"end":22.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.37721875,"end":28.043468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.79034375,"end":31.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.85721875,"end":41.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.67971875,"end":34.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.37159375,"end":34.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.74596875,"end":58.283468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.55346875,"end":63.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.48096875,"end":75.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.06971875,"end":79.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.71471875,"end":81.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.07721875,"end":86.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.46034375,"end":90.80159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.24034375000001,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.31159375,"end":95.61096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.10034375000001,"end":97.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.17596875000001,"end":99.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.18409375,"end":103.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.89659375000001,"end":108.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.82409375,"end":112.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.14409375000001,"end":120.06284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.50159375000001,"end":121.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.90221875,"end":123.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.94409375000001,"end":127.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.12534375000001,"end":132.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.97221875,"end":134.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.46971875,"end":138.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.25409375,"end":141.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.96659375000002,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.23659375,"end":144.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.35846875000001,"end":149.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.23971875,"end":153.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.61034375,"end":155.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.22596875000002,"end":157.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.20034375,"end":159.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.02721875,"end":159.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.19596875000002,"end":160.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.19159375,"end":160.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.20846875,"end":160.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.22534375,"end":163.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.24221875,"end":160.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.33909375000002,"end":161.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.05596875,"end":166.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.02596875,"end":167.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.09346875,"end":167.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.11034375,"end":171.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.83534375000002,"end":179.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.88471875000002,"end":182.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.83346875,"end":185.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.03159375,"end":192.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.08596875,"end":188.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.25409375,"end":192.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.59159375000002,"end":192.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.62534375,"end":192.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.96284375000002,"end":198.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.93659375000001,"end":199.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.66221875000002,"end":213.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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我們還是請署長署長 剛剛聽你這樣子我覺得名稱其實對後續的影響很大 對不對就是撞船啊 碰撞啊 什麼的我不能講說不大因為我們現在的專案小組"},{"start":25.407,"end":41.245,"text":"我們已經在那邊跟他們談了十四輪的我只問說這個對後續的影響大不大當然會有影響對嘛因為這個就是責任的歸屬但責任的歸屬在我方的立場一直非常明確我們希望經由我們司法"},{"start":41.866,"end":58.084,"text":"公正的調查 同時剛剛委員都提到由第三方的公正單位不光是檢調的調查也不光是這些海事的調查也不光是各種的勘驗而且要請一個第三個公正單位來看這些物理現象這些"},{"start":58.624,"end":86.535,"text":"海事的一個規則以及他們習慣上可能會產生的一個結果所以我們為什麼把這些資料全部提供給剪掉我們而不對這些資料做任何的發表言論是因為我們要非常尊重我們台灣的司法制度我們不可以講一大堆有的沒有的去影響這件事情同時我也要跟委員報告我們這段時間從2月14號以後我們的同仁承受很大的壓力"},{"start":87.515,"end":102.904,"text":"因為我們也希望我們的同仁不要對外去講這些事情但他們心裡面也受到很大的煎熬不但是我們的同仁我們同仁的眷屬也受到很大的壓力因為外界一直對這些事情有很多的揣測"},{"start":103.965,"end":132.281,"text":"那我們做的事情的報告我們僅止於我們所了解但是檢調調查部分我們是不可以公開的我們是不可以把這些資料譬如說這雷達的資料如果我今天可以拿到這個現場給大家看一下那我相信馬上各位就會有一個公平但是我們不能做這些事情因為這是檢調專業的事情這個你剛剛已經說了那我問你啦有一件事情可不可以讓大家知道是"},{"start":133.041,"end":152.76,"text":"我們的艇現在艇在哪裡?我們現在的艇跟另外那一艘快艇現在全部被這個刑事扣押在刑大他是金門的刑大他是由檢調委託金門的刑大扣押在"},{"start":153.661,"end":182.401,"text":"我們海巡的這個這個海巡隊的那個廣場上面已經扣押到那邊在廣場上嘛 對不對那有有保密說誰都不能看嗎我們有規定不可以讓任何人看不可以讓任何人看對 有覆蓋那我問一下齁 署長我不知道各位透露我們的艇有任何破損或擦撞的痕跡嗎或我們去撞到人的很主動去撞人的痕跡嗎"},{"start":184.031,"end":197.818,"text":"這可不可以透露這個內容我不知道恰不恰當透露但是就我們的我方的報告我不知道檢方的報告我們根依你海巡署的立場海巡署長講我們的我警車"},{"start":200.139,"end":225.617,"text":"去追小偷、無招駕駛等等我就差不多我們的警車有沒有破損有沒有怎樣大家都可以看的嘛 對不對到時候我就問我們這艘艇有沒有破損現在我們沒有破損我們沒有破損署長你說沒有破損所以如果沒有破損的情況之下你如果這艘艇去撞"},{"start":226.497,"end":232.642,"text":"因為我們兩邊都是FRP的材質照這樣高速的速度40節這樣子衝撞過去我認為會有一些最起碼會有一個凹痕或者破洞"},{"start":254.229,"end":281.035,"text":"但是其實那天我們在釣這兩個證物的時候媒體記者都有拍左右旋360度都有拍到不管是我們的船跟對方的船現在所有360度都沒有任何的凹陷或者破洞只在左旋後六分之一處有一個欄杆壓到的一個裂痕我們有一張圖"},{"start":286.302,"end":307.936,"text":"這是我們自己調查的因為我們第一時間我們自己海巡隊要做個初步的調查這是我們的船各位有沒有看到任何的破洞有沒有看到既然拿出來了我跟各位報告一下它的長是11.6米我們的長只有9.6米它的寬是2.7米我們的寬是2.8米"},{"start":313.356,"end":325.532,"text":"他的身是1.85米我們的身是0.7米不是外界所說是我們一艘很大的海巡船去把人家一個漁船給撞翻了這是外面講的"},{"start":327.205,"end":355.544,"text":"這我們真的是我們這是事實這就是我們的照片這是我們的扣押的現在已經被扣押在這個證物的那我們這個是我們自己內部的一個這跟檢調無關所以我還是要強調所有的事實真相一定要有檢調來說我們不能說不是署長給檢調的我們當然知道但剛剛署長也有提到當天在處理這個時候其實媒體也有拍到嘛對不對我們的船"},{"start":357.805,"end":384.492,"text":"是沒有任何的損害 只有一點點的那個擦撞一點點擦撞 然後 對不對但你敢保證這個擦撞是這次造成的嗎我不能這樣講對嘛齁 因為 是來 但是署長你先聽我講完一般國際慣例跟我們在在舉例非法的一般就是他如果不停船我們當然是會慢慢靠近慢慢靠近我要登船臨潔偶爾都會碰撞 對不對"},{"start":384.952,"end":404.07,"text":"我還要強調還有另外一個場景委員沒有考量到陸方的船翻船之後我們的船第一時間在做什麼事全部在做救難救人因為我下的第一個命令就是以救人為主那天我就在我們海巡署的停止中心第一時間我們副署長"},{"start":405.231,"end":406.491,"text":"這個船隻到底是怎麼回事?或者是有什麼狀況?"},{"start":429.366,"end":456.261,"text":"那都是後來後來因為檢方要求要扣押這兩艘船給它調到陸岸上不可以在水裡面所以說我們現在是調到陸岸上的過程當中我們媒體也有拍到這個照片這不是我們要刻意透露這個照片對我知道所以我們現在我立法委員質詢你嘛所以現在一個很事實很清楚的問題就是說很清楚的我們的海巡署的艇沒有"},{"start":456.801,"end":459.323,"text":"後續因為我們在救援的過程當中我們有一個救援的照片我們那個"},{"start":475.639,"end":499.239,"text":"1051船一直都要靠著這個翻覆的小艇因為他在旁邊不斷的這個就這張照片你看我們一直在跟他接觸啊為什麼因為我們要跳下去我們要去救人我們的人還上了他的這個船在那邊要把人要撈起來要把那三個那個生還者先撈起來因為有一個我們一直沒有找到所以我們後來緊急"},{"start":501.041,"end":501.061,"text":"張宏陸議員"},{"start":526.141,"end":543.827,"text":"三點五十就把最後一個人救起來了那就是兩點三點四點就三個小時之內我們把四個人立刻從這個失事的水域把人都救起來這個各位也可以去追查一下過往我們這樣子的一個救生救難的這個經驗"},{"start":545.607,"end":546.308,"text":"這一點我必須要叫屈"},{"start":570.769,"end":588.469,"text":"另外我還要強調我們這些每一個救護的人員送到案的時候那個救護車是消防局的他每一個救護車上面都有錄影都有時間那個時間就可以證明我們到底有沒有延誤我們什麼時候給他我們第一個"},{"start":591.152,"end":593.033,"text":"1點33分我們2點鐘就把他送到碼頭2點2分3點5分那個救護車就到現場為什麼我們在海上已經請"},{"start":613.762,"end":628.219,"text":"請我們的請指中心先申請救護車趕快先到最近的那個碼頭我們過去之後就把人送上去一直在急救好 署長所以啦齁事件的關係啦我這樣的結論你看都不對啦齁第一個"},{"start":629.12,"end":641.865,"text":"從我們的艇現狀來看不像外界所說的我們是故意去衝撞故意去衝撞造成它的翻覆這個應該剛剛你講的我認為結論是這樣第一個沒有錯嘛第二個積極救援剛剛署長你說的就是這樣嘛對不對所以問題要講出來而且署長"},{"start":654.008,"end":673.919,"text":"我之前我在質詢我都要求你們要挺我們海巡弟兄要錢給錢要什麼給什麼我們都是這樣我們就希望他積極執法啦對不對我覺得你也要讓我們海巡弟兄有這個感覺你這個長官是挺他們的那我也覺得後續未來"},{"start":675.32,"end":699.051,"text":"我也覺得我們要積極的執法不能因為這件事情那讓以後所有的這一種傳播來讓我們的漁民苦無生計然後我們國安出現漏洞我覺得這個才是我們現在要的一個態度對不對那至於你剛剛說的你們海巡的堅持如果是用撞船或什麼會影響後續這個你今天這樣講大家都知道了所以"},{"start":699.991,"end":721.715,"text":"蘇長"},{"start":721.855,"end":722.435,"text":"非常謝謝張宏陸"}]}},{"id":"149258","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149258","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddc5124167ae9e10374df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a6c9ffc3ff12dce56a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"11:32:17 - 11:47:13","影片長度":"00:14:56","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":896,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:47:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:32:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":909,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（11時32分）謝謝主席，主席，我想要請海巡署周署長。"],["主席：好，有請周署長，謝謝。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長好。署長，今天在聽了這麼多委員的發言以及最近的新聞報導之後，我想第一個請您備詢的問題、回答的問題其實是海巡署和各位海巡弟兄在我們海疆裡面的最大職責是什麼？"],["周副主任委員美伍：就是要捍衛我們的國土、捍衛我們的海疆、捍衛我們漁民的合法權益。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，所以從……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們今天這個行動是取締非法、保障合法。"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有錯。"],["周副主任委員美伍：因為從初三開始，金門地區的漁民就跟我們報案，說這個地區不斷地有大陸的船隻進入，來做非法的捕魚，或者其他走私，或者什麼的行為……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以從初三開始……"],["周副主任委員美伍：要我們去注意這個水域，所以在這個水域的時候，我們已經預置了這個船隻……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！"],["周副主任委員美伍：剛剛我們主委一直在強調，CP-1051這一艘船，它已經在海上，位置是在北邊，今天北碇是在稍微南邊、東邊一點，剛剛委員所問的，這整個是一個連續動作，我們的雷達、雷情一發現有陸籍的快艇要進入到我們的禁限制水域，這個時候我們戰情的值日人員就會通知CP-1051海上的執勤……"],["蘇委員巧慧：已經在海上了？"],["周副主任委員美伍：已經在海上了。"],["蘇委員巧慧：已經在海上了？"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，所以它沒有辦法……"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為初三就接到大量的金門漁民、我國漁民的通報……"],["周副主任委員美伍：2月份……"],["蘇委員巧慧：有中國的不明船艦過來，所以你們整天都在海上巡戒，保衛我們的海疆？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：而在事發當天的時候，是巡邏船已經在海上的時候接到通報……"],["周副主任委員美伍：已經在海上。"],["蘇委員巧慧：直接趕到事發地點？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：整個故事是這樣子？"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，這個下令是由勤指中心下達給CP-1051跟海巡隊……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以不是在海上接到通報後重新穿戴好然後整裝出發？"],["周副主任委員美伍：不是、不是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：而是已經在海上不停地在巡查當中……"],["周副主任委員美伍：已經在海上執勤。"],["蘇委員巧慧：趕往事發地點……"],["周副主任委員美伍：不是……"],["蘇委員巧慧：趕往被通報地點，但還沒有事發。"],["周副主任委員美伍：它已經在北邊的位置，跟委員說明。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，所以是一個正在巡視海疆，每天不分晝夜巡視海疆的狀況下接到通報，去到有不明船艦的地點，對不對？"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，然後接下來發生了什麼事情？"],["周副主任委員美伍：然後……"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為你剛剛有回答說這整個事故發生，我們不用碰撞、也不用撞船、也不用其他任何，我們說它是一個事件、一個事故。請問署長，當天發生事故的主因，你剛剛說有3點，你可不可以再簡短陳述一次？"],["周副主任委員美伍：好，一個就是它……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有人願意看到這個不幸嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：高速大轉彎……"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個高速大轉彎的主體是誰？你現在在描述的是我方的船艦還是大陸的船舶？"],["周副主任委員美伍：高速大轉彎就是大陸的違法快艇。"],["蘇委員巧慧：就是那個三無船舶嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，它就是一個平底的快艇，按照艦船操縱的特性，像這種高速大轉彎，它那天是右轉，因為我們看後來的事證，它是在右滿舵，所以這樣子的船舶，依這種快艇的操船特性，它一定就是會右傾。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["周副主任委員美伍：另外，第二個我講配重……"],["蘇委員巧慧：它為什麼要高速行駛啊？"],["周副主任委員美伍：它在逃避我們的追查啊！我們在……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以看起來，那天的狀態是兩艘船艦，我們的船艦聽到了通報之後，追逐過去後看到了這一艘三無船舶？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：然後呢？"],["周副主任委員美伍：然後……"],["蘇委員巧慧：然後開始進行追逐？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們要開始，我們先廣播，音響信號，我們一定是標準的程序，我們一定會先廣播，請它離開這個水域，如果我們要登檢……"],["蘇委員巧慧：先警告了嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們會先警告，而且會廣播請它減速，我們必須要登檢。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以這個也做了？"],["周副主任委員美伍：這些都做完了。"],["蘇委員巧慧：都做完了以後呢？"],["周副主任委員美伍：在這個同時，我把情況稍微示意一下，這個代表我方的艦艇，這個是他們……"],["蘇委員巧慧：藍色是我們的，紅色是他們的。"],["周副主任委員美伍：它這樣過來的時候，我們的艦艇接到報案之後、接到我們的指揮之後，它下來，這個船就往這個地方，看到我們下來之後它就下來……"],["蘇委員巧慧：準備逃走？"],["周副主任委員美伍：它下來之後，又往外要……在這個過程當中都是高速的，它看到我們的時候就開始高速，它在2分鐘之內，速度從0加到40節。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你現在描述的這一段是有影像的嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我跟委員報告，其實這個我們不能講，但是今天因為剛剛有很多委員都提到我們有沒有雷達的航跡跟影像？一般人都知道，我們怎麼可能沒有雷達的航跡跟影像？"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以剛剛的這一段……"],["周副主任委員美伍：這些資料全部都交給檢調了，它到底是不是陸方所講的，它是停在那邊被我們高速過來撞擊？這個船我們吊起來看之後，360度，各位看，它除了左舷船簷的六分之一處有一個破縫、一個明顯的撞擊點以外，其他整個船身……"],["蘇委員巧慧：好。"],["周副主任委員美伍：整個船身是FRP的，而且沒有一點的破洞，也沒有大凹洞，連凹的地方都沒有，如果照它講的，我們以40節高速這樣子垂直撞到它，它是FRP的……"],["蘇委員巧慧：早就應該碎掉啦！FRP……"],["周副主任委員美伍：它已經碎掉了……"],["蘇委員巧慧：它應該是碎掉的狀態。"],["周副主任委員美伍：它怎麼還會這麼完整？"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，按照你剛剛這樣講……"],["周副主任委員美伍：這個是我講的配重不良，它這兩個，一般漁船，請問會開到40節嗎？一般漁船最多10節，十幾節、20節可能都很困難，它可以開到四十幾節，是因為它用了這種配重不對的400匹大的推進器兩個，很重。各位請看，在這個船的前面，在這一張……"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委……"],["周副主任委員美伍：它的右側還有一個起網機，起網機也是一個很重的東西，它違法到我們的水域裡面，把佈的網再提起來，就是它佈網在那邊捕魚，這個起網機也正好在右舷，它那天跟我們追逐到最後，我們在驅離準備登檢的時候，登檢是一定要迫近，這是實情，你不迫近怎麼登檢？"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！"],["周副主任委員美伍：在這個登檢的過程當中，雙方都是高速，在這樣子的高速過程當中，請問委員，你認為會不會有擦撞？你認為會不會有互相之間的這種？為什麼在這個影片上面，我們希望能夠證明我們平常的登檢就是這樣，這是實情，我們從來沒有隱瞞實情。我跟委員報告，從事發到現在，我們一直遵照檢調的指示，我們不可以對外透露所有的案情。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以你現在……"],["周副主任委員美伍：另外，我還要強調一點，所有的雷達是可以看到這個目標，不管是我們的還是中共的快艇，航向、航速是非常清楚的，雷達是可以看出航向、航速、它的位置在什麼地方，它是不是在我們禁限制的水域，還是我們胡亂謅一個故事告訴你們……"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，我剛剛……"],["周副主任委員美伍：這些都是用雷達的這些航跡可以表示出來，但是這個我們都不應該講，這個要留給檢調去搜索。"],["蘇委員巧慧：副主委，我從8點到現在，我知道你很委屈，也為我們的海巡弟兄委屈，因為整段故事就是我國的海巡弟兄在保疆衛土的狀況下，因為在海上接到通報要去進行驅離，但發現它是一艘「三無船舶」之後，警告它之後，因為它想要逃逸，所以發生狀況，最後有了不幸的結果，但我們現在已經接受調查，所有的資料你都已經提供給檢調，對不對？是不是這樣的狀況？你也希望國人能夠理解嘛！其實整個狀況就是這樣。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：何況你歸納的經驗是，第一、這艘大陸籍的「三無船舶」高速行駛；第二、它在逃避追逐的時候向右急轉；第三、坦白講，你們也調查過，你也認為船長經驗不足，這是翻覆的三大主因。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我跟委員報告，因為這個調查不是只有調查我方4個船員，各位，記住，還有2位大陸籍的生還者。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，所以他們都已經做過……"],["周副主任委員美伍：所有的調查，他們所有講的話，我們全程都有錄音錄影。"],["蘇委員巧慧：全程錄音錄影嘛！在我國是全程錄音錄影，可是去到中國以後他們翻口供了，為什麼他們會翻口供？這段不曉得有沒有全程錄音錄影？怎麼沒有人問這個部分？我也好想要看看。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員，我們不能講，因為這些資料我們都已經交給檢調來公正的調查。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好啦！是啦！所以你剛剛只是陳述你有無資料，你並沒有描述這些資料，因為你還是不能夠透露嘛！因為偵查不公開。"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，不能夠透露。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以你無法在這裡提供這些資料，但是你在備詢臺上公開的說：「我是有資料的」，對不對？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們當然有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，副主委，我想要請問，基於這樣的事實，為什麼你認為今天的報告、因為我剛剛聽管主委說，其實這個報告名稱要更改是海巡署建議的。"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：為什麼你們要提出這樣的建議？這個跟你們現在的談判有沒有重要的關係？如果有的話，你們當然要能夠表示意見？剩下30秒。"],["周副主任委員美伍：好，委員，因為主委對這件事情的態度一直以來都是很保護海巡署，但是我們認為這只是單一的執法事件，這件事情我們每天都在做，現在可能我們的船就在海上做這樣的事情，我們每天都這樣子做……"],["蘇委員巧慧：但是我想知道這個名稱……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們是取締非法。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，我瞭解，我從開宗明義就瞭解，現在只剩下15秒，我現在想要知道的是這個名稱對於談判有沒有影響？"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然。"],["蘇委員巧慧：根據我的瞭解，你們現在談了14次都是糾結在這個名詞。"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有錯，報告委員，你講的完全正確，因為這個事關責任的歸屬。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！"],["周副主任委員美伍：如果連國內都講「碰撞」、「撞船」或是這些，他們會說，你們自己都這樣子講了，那你們怎麼能夠怪我們，因為這是你們來撞我們的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：不，如果只是自己這樣講的話……"],["周副主任委員美伍：因為撞船的動力跟我們平常的、我剛剛特別解釋了……"],["蘇委員巧慧：在你們海巡的專業裡，這有特別的用法嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有什麼特殊的用法，但是你說撞船的話，那個感覺就是現在陸方的說法，就是它停在那邊，然後我們過去撞它。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以現在中國在談判的過程中就是用「撞船」這樣的名詞嗎？他們用「撞船」這2個字把責任都扣到你的身上，你的意思是這樣嗎？所以你沒有辦法接受？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我不能透露我們的溝通過程。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你不能夠透露？但是你拒絕接受這個名詞？"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以這就是一個態度，我可以這樣理解嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，可以。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你無法透露，但是你沒有辦法接受在這裡報告用這個名詞？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我要請委員聚焦，我們現在是取締「三無船舶」。"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為剛剛還有其他委員很認真的在查字典。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員，請你給我20秒，我再做個解釋。這個「三無船舶」不是只有我們在查緝，剛剛另外一位委員質詢時我也有特別的跟他講，光是去年、112年，中方要求我方協同執法的就有49次，那個概念就是說，我們每個月跟中方的海事單位、海巡單位或是海洋事務單位，他們會要求我們海巡跟它一起合作，在各自的水域裡去查緝這種違法的、走私的……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以是協同嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：協同執法。"],["蘇委員巧慧：事實上，兩邊是可以互相合作的，那為什麼這一次……"],["周副主任委員美伍：所以我們現在必須要正式的呼籲，剛剛邱主委也講，這個從81年公布以來，這一、二十年來，我們跟對方都有非常良好的默契，金廈水域在大陸跟我們之間，我們共同的來維持這一段水域，保障正當漁民合法的補魚權益。另外，我們是要保障這些合法的權益，我們要防止那些濫捕、濫墾，因為他們經常跑到我們的水道來佈下漁網，那個不光會影響到我們漁民的權益，也會影響到航行的安全。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，我完全能夠理解，副主委，主席都已經站起來了，請給我10秒總結。我想，今天不分黨派都是支持海巡弟兄捍衛我國疆土，在這次的事件中，其實事情如何大家都很清楚，而且資料也一件一件的拿出來了，所以責任不在我方的，我們基於我們只是執行我們應有的權益，保障合法、取締非法，該讓的，我們可以微幅的表達善意，但不該讓的，我們絕對一步都不能退，包括我們的名詞用法也不應該造成未來談判的困擾，所以我在這裡完全支持海巡弟兄。","至於在國會的程序上要如何更周延？當然，我們彼此之間是同事，我們可以更進一步的來瞭解，但支持海巡弟兄是不分黨派的，我們要給海巡弟兄最好的配備和權利，我們要做為他們最大的後盾，這點請副主委放心。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我要跟召委抱歉！正式的抱歉！這個題目我們海巡署前天、禮拜五下午就寫了，我們的撰搞人也在現場，所以我真的要跟召委抱歉！"],["主席：不用跟我抱歉！我覺得……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們就是認定，我們就是一個……"],["主席：如果你今天有誠意的話，你今天的專案報告就應該要如巧慧委員所講和詢問的，我們似乎、好像是從媒體，或是委員的答詢中，你們才一點一點的透出來，現在很清楚的是，你們是有航行軌跡圖的，只是你們交給了檢調，但是你們一直都對外說沒有。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們沒有說沒有。"],["主席：現在釐清真相是有的，對不對？巧慧？謝謝巧慧剛剛的質詢，我們一點一滴抽絲剝繭後才知道，也謝謝副主委的回應，謝謝。謝謝巧慧委員。","繼續請張宏陸委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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有請周署長 謝謝委員好署長好 署長我想第一個今天在聽了這麼多委員的發言以及最近的新聞報導之後我想第一個請您備詢的問題其實回答的問題其實是海巡署和各位海巡弟兄在我們的海疆裡面他的最大的職責是什麼"},{"start":29.778,"end":53.692,"text":"我們就是要捍衛我們的國土捍衛我們的海疆捍衛我們漁民的合法權益我們今天這個行動是取締非法保障合法從初三開始金門地區的漁民就開始跟我們報案說這個地區有不斷的有大陸的船隻進入來做非法的捕魚或者其他走私或者什麼的行為"},{"start":54.412,"end":71.332,"text":"要我們去注意這個水域所以我們在這個水域的時候我們已經預置了這個船隻剛剛我們主委一直在強調CP1051這艘船它已經在海上它位置是在北邊那今天這個北定它是在稍微南邊在東邊一點"},{"start":75.215,"end":87.459,"text":"當我們的雷達剛剛委員所問的這個整個是一個連續動作我們的雷達雷情一發現有陸級的快艇要進入到我們的境線之水域這個時候我們的"},{"start":88.399,"end":88.439,"text":"蘇巧慧"},{"start":120.58,"end":147.697,"text":"所以不是在海上接到通報以後我重新穿戴好以後然後整裝出發我是已經在海上在巡查當中趕往事發地點趕往被通報地點來那時候還會事發所以是一個正在巡視海疆每天每天不分重業巡視海疆的狀況下接到通報去到有不明船艦的地點"},{"start":148.297,"end":151.759,"text":"請問署長你可不可以把當天發生事故的主因你可不可以再簡短陳述一次我想一個就是"},{"start":173.288,"end":175.71,"text":"高速大轉彎就是這個大陸的違法的快艇按照艦船操縱的特性像這種高速"},{"start":193.171,"end":212.623,"text":"大轉彎他那天是右轉因為我們看後來的施政他是在右滿舵對這樣子的船舶這種快艇的超船特性他一定就是會右傾對那麼另外第二個我講配重那他為什麼要高速行駛啊他在逃避我們的追查所以看起來所以那天的狀態是兩艘船艦我們的船艦聽到了通報以後追逐過去以後看到了這一艘三無船舶"},{"start":219.547,"end":221.028,"text":"蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧"},{"start":240.655,"end":262.413,"text":"所以這個也做了?這些都做完了?在這個同時我把這個稍微示意一下這個代表我方的艦艇藍色是我們的紅色是他們的過來的時候我們的艦艇接到報案之後接到我們的指揮之後它下來這個船就往這個地方看到我們下來之後它就下來逃走準備逃走又往外"},{"start":263.453,"end":287.282,"text":"在這個過程當中都是高速的是他看到我們的時候他就開始高速他在兩分鐘之內的速度從零加到這一段你現在描述的這一段是有影像的嗎現在描述的這一段是有影像的嗎我跟委員報告其實這個我們不能講但是今天因為剛剛有很多委員都提到你們有沒有雷達的航跡跟影像"},{"start":288.062,"end":312.581,"text":"對,如果稍微,我們一般人都知道我們怎麼可能沒有雷達的航跡跟影像這些資料全部都交給檢調了它到底是不是陸方所講的,它是停在那邊對我們高速過來撞擊那這個船我們吊起來看的時候360度,各位看它除了左旋這個船沿的地方的六分之一處有一個"},{"start":313.757,"end":333.202,"text":"破縫一個明顯的撞擊的點以外其他整個船身是FRP的而且沒有一點的破洞也沒有大凹洞連凹的地方都沒有那如果是他講我們40節的高速這樣子垂直撞到他"},{"start":334.215,"end":335.556,"text":"一般漁船請問會開到40節嗎一般漁船最多10節"},{"start":351.523,"end":351.683,"text":"各位請看"},{"start":365.305,"end":385.016,"text":"在這個船的前面在這一張各位看它在它的右側還有一個起網機這個起網機也是一個很重的東西是它要來違法到我們的水域裡面把這個布的網再起起來就是它布的網它在裡面捕魚"},{"start":385.936,"end":407.052,"text":"那這個騎網機也正好在右旋那他那天跟我們追逐到最後我們在距離準備登檢的時候登檢是一定要破鏡嗎這是實情你不破鏡你怎麼登檢在這個登檢的過程當中雙方都是高速這樣子的高速過程當中請問委員你認為會不會有差創你認為會不會有這種互相之間的這種"},{"start":411.736,"end":432.404,"text":"所以我們為什麼我們在這個影片上面我們希望能夠證明我們平常的登檢就是這樣的這是實情我們從來沒有隱瞞實情我跟委員報告我們從事發到現在我們一直遵照檢調的指示我們不可以對外透露所有的案情所以你現在我還要強調一點所有的雷達"},{"start":435.467,"end":452.246,"text":"是可以看到這個目標這兩個不管是我們的還是中共的這個快艇航向、航速是非常清楚的這雷達是可以看出你航向、航速它的位置在什麼地方它是不是在我們進限制的水域還是"},{"start":453.379,"end":477.806,"text":"我們胡亂揪一個故事告訴你們這些都用雷達的這些行事表示出來但是這個我們都不應該講這個要留給檢調去說我知道你很委屈啦也為我們的海巡弟兄委屈因為整段的故事就是一個我國的海巡弟兄在保江衛土的狀況下進行在海上接到通報要去驅逐"},{"start":479.827,"end":494.539,"text":"而發現他是一艘三無船舶之後警告之後他想要逃逸所發生的狀況最後有不幸的結果但我們現在接受調查所有的資料你都已經提供給檢調對不對是一個這樣的狀況也希望國人能夠理解嘛其實你整個的狀況是這樣何況你歸納的經驗其實是"},{"start":502.566,"end":522.282,"text":"第一,這艘大陸的珊瑚船舶高速行駛,第二,它在逃避追逐的時候向右急轉,第三,坦白講你們現在調查過,你也認為船長經驗不足,這是三大干部的責任吧?我跟委員報告,因為這個調查不是只有我方的四個長者,還有兩位生還者各位,還要記住還有兩位大陸生還者"},{"start":523.643,"end":541.076,"text":"蘇巧慧 她說有講的話,我們全程錄音錄影,在委員會的時候是全程錄音錄影,可是去到中國以後他們分口供了啊,那她為什麼分口供,最多不曉得有沒有全程錄音錄影,怎麼沒有人問這個部分啊,我也好想要看看啊。"},{"start":544.178,"end":544.218,"text":"蘇巧慧"},{"start":564.895,"end":565.275,"text":"主委對這件事的態度一直就是"},{"start":593.849,"end":601.135,"text":"我們每天都在做現在可能我們的船就在海上做這樣子的事情"},{"start":602.129,"end":602.489,"text":"發言委員．蘇巧慧"},{"start":627.654,"end":653.817,"text":"你們國內都這樣講是碰撞或者是什麼撞船或者是這些他說你們自己都這樣講那你怎麼能怪我們說這是你們撞船因為這個撞船的這個動力跟這個我們平常兩個我剛剛特別解釋就在你們海巡專案裡面這有特別的用法嗎沒有什麼特殊的用法但是你說撞船的話那個感覺就是現在陸防的說法"},{"start":654.637,"end":681.414,"text":"所以現在中國在談判的過程中就是用你們撞船這樣子的名詞嗎是用撞船兩個字在把責任扣到你身上你的意思是這樣嗎所以你沒有辦法接受我不能透露我們這個溝通的過程但是你拒絕接受這個名詞當然當然所以這就是一個態度我可以這樣理解嗎可以你無法透露但你沒有辦法接受在這裡報告這個名詞我要請委員聚焦我們現在是取第三無傳博"},{"start":682.756,"end":696.07,"text":"因為我們剛剛有其他委員很認真的還查自己的請你給我20秒我再做個解釋這個山湖船舶不是只有我們在查起我剛剛有特別跟另外一位委員諮詢的時候講我們光是去年112年"},{"start":697.592,"end":719.746,"text":"中方要求我方跟他協同執法就有49次那個概念就是說我每個月跟中方他的海事單位或者是海巡單位或者是海洋事務的單位他會要求我們海巡跟他一起合作在各自的水域當中去查其這種違法的走私的"},{"start":720.106,"end":722.968,"text":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":743.203,"end":763.391,"text":"大陸跟我們之間共同來維持這段水域正當漁民的一個捕魚的一個合法的權益另外我們是要保障這些合法的權益我們要防止那些濫捕濫啃這些他們經常跑到我們的水道放下一些漁網"},{"start":764.531,"end":766.993,"text":"那個不光是影響我們漁民的權益,也影響航行安全。"},{"start":785.587,"end":799.664,"text":"資料是一件一件拿出來所以責任不在我方的我們金魚我們是執行我們應有的權利保障合法取締非法該讓的我們是可以慰福表達善意"},{"start":800.585,"end":800.625,"text":"蘇巧慧議員"},{"start":821.189,"end":821.549,"text":"蘇巧慧議員"},{"start":843.245,"end":868.373,"text":"所以我要跟委員稍微真正抱歉不用跟我抱歉我們就是認定我覺得你今天今天你如果有誠意的話你今天的專案報告也應該要如曹慧委員所講的詢問的我們似乎好像是從媒體或者是委員的答詢當中你們才一點一點一點的透出來現在很清楚是說你們是有行軌跡圖的"},{"start":870.294,"end":881.94,"text":"所以你們只是交給了檢調但是你們一直對外是說沒有所以現在對於釐清真相的是有的對不對巧慧所以呢謝謝巧慧剛剛的質詢我們一點一點才知道抽絲剝繭也謝謝署長的回應謝謝好謝謝巧慧委員繼續我們請張宏祿委員來質詢謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149257","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149257","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd53efa27fe1990e61a874ae98c1f56169f8ba9b0039caa7a6364a56083a712bf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"12:00:36 - 12:12:33","影片長度":"00:11:57","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":717,"end_time":"2024-03-04T12:12:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T12:00:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1030,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（12時0分）謝謝召委，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，我想先請教一下豬肉的問題，因為從2月2日臺中市衛生單位發布台糖豬肉有瘦肉精之後，到現在也已經一個多月了，請問就農業最高主管機關的角度，現在臺灣的豬肉是不是安全的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我先回答結論，臺灣的豬肉是絕對百分之百安全，而且沒有用乙型受體素。在2月2日臺中市檢測出來的時候，其實我們比大家更緊張，因為我們是負責整個豬的產業，所以我們馬上針對上市前的養豬場、屠宰場，養豬場包括豬體與飼料，我們都做了一系列的清查。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對全部檢測出來都是安全的嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，全部都沒有使用乙型受體素。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這段時間已經過了一個月左右，也做了調查、也做了專家會議，專家會議的結果是怎麼樣？"],["陳代理部長駿季：專家會議正在做最後的彙整，因為整個案件包括上市前我們的部分與……"],["賴委員瑞隆：就農業部呢？農業部徵詢的結果與調查的結果呢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：根據我們提供的年度檢測七百多件與現在加強專案檢測的七百多件，一千五百多件都沒有檢出。專家也針對養豬場、屠宰場及加工分切廠，他們認為到目前的所有資料都沒有證據顯示臺灣豬場有使用乙型受體素當作添加物。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，到底這件事情是怎麼發生的，就專家們的看法？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想前市場的部分，專家一致認為從檢測結果來看是沒有問題，我們也會繼續加強抽檢。至於後市場檢測的部分，我想衛福部也是找專家，基本上，我們現在的專家都是找到可能的點，而不是一定是這個點，有很多可能的點，衛福部正在處理這個部分，預計3月初……"],["賴委員瑞隆：什麼時候會針對這個部分給大家……"],["陳代理部長駿季：大概在這個禮拜或下個禮拜應該就會有……"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個禮拜應該會出來？"],["陳代理部長駿季：根據我的了解，應該是3月初到……"],["賴委員瑞隆：本來說是3月初，今天已經是3月初了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：食安辦應該會做一些……"],["賴委員瑞隆：經過這樣的檢測，大家對於臺灣的豬肉是有信心的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：也都沒有問題。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是總要等更確切的報告出來、總是要有更科學的專家調查結果，才能讓國人更加的放心。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：同時也了解為什麼這件事情會這樣發生。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望確保臺灣的豬肉、也確保未來臺灣的食安是讓大家更有信心的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想食安辦最後會綜整兩個部會本身的專家……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我再問一下部長，這件事情的發生有沒有什麼樣的標準作業程序出了問題，可以更加改進的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想在農業部負責的上市前的這些部分，因為現在的豬價價格也還不錯，而且乙型受體素是禁用的，農民沒有任何理由使用乙型受體素，這是第一個部分。至於後市場檢驗的部分，其實很多檢驗的部分，以農業部來講，我們做檢驗時通常都會多抽取幾件做備份，萬一檢測時有一些可能的誤差，還可以啟動另外的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我舉例好了，如果現在是由農業部查到的狀況下，你們會不會更謹慎的處理？"],["陳代理部長駿季：以農業部檢測的流程來講，我們會分兩個部分，當它的數值比較接近檢測極限的時候……"],["賴委員瑞隆：很接近的時候啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，它本身檢測的標準積差比較大的時候，我們就會更謹慎地去拿另外一個備份的樣品，重新去做檢測，如果檢測出來的結果是一致性的，才會去做後續的處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望除了衛生單位的一些經驗之外，因為你們是豬隻的主管單位，豬農的權益都在你們手上，我也希望你們農業單位能夠適度表達一些意見給所有的各政府單位，在這件事情上能夠更加謹慎小心。因為就我們常理的判斷，台糖是國營事業，基本上沒有造假的利益空間，更何況這個東西在成本上也看不到它的動機。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：在沒有動機的情況下，當發生這樣的事情時，恐怕要再三去推究，為什麼會發生這樣的狀況，這樣恐怕比較不會產生……現在發生事件的是台糖，如果是一般豬農的話，這個豬農恐怕承受不了這樣的處理。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：雖然這段時間的豬價都很不錯，但是我也認為在發生這個事件之後，相信國人在使用豬肉產品時一定受到了很大的影響，一定有受到影響，因為他們相對的比較沒有信心嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：針對這件事情，我們不怪任何人，但是我認為政府的標準程序應該要更謹慎防止這樣的事件再次發生，一旦有的時候，至少讓各體系的人更謹慎去處理這件事情，這樣比較能夠避免。至於後面還有的問題，包括台糖信譽的損失，甚至是這段時間的整個損失，還有相關的求償問題，所以我認為這個部分經過了這樣的經驗之後，大家有更好的程序就可以減少這類事情在未來發生的機會。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們在跨部會工作會議討論的時候，也提出了非常多檢測標準作業流程有什麼可以改進的空間，這部分我們都有相關的討論，未來……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我也希望農業部要表達意見。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們表達了很多意見。"],["賴委員瑞隆：台糖也是豬農，萬一是其他一般的豬農，恐怕大概是倒定了啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：還沒求償恐怕就先倒了，再求償還不知要等到什麼時候，所以我認為農業部對這件事情還是應該要有它的立場。"],["陳代理部長駿季：會，我們會積極處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我再舉個例子，像我自己本身都會買台糖的豬肉，你看這段時間，到了昨天、到了今天早上，台糖的梅花肉還是完全的補貨中、補貨中，它補貨了一個多月，還是補貨中，因為它不會被上市，包括買得到台糖豬肉的一般通路也全部都下架。我問一下部長，什麼時候台糖豬肉可以上架，讓大家可以買得到？"],["陳代理部長駿季：關於後市場的豬肉，因為當初台糖有一部分是預防性的下架，它可以再向相關的所在地，應該是臺南市政府那邊申請重新上架，這個部分是可以做的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：你知道它申請了嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我了解在上個禮拜他們有說會去申請。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我的意思是一方面希望這個調查儘快出來，因為出來之後大家可以安心，另一方面對於台糖方面，不要說是台糖，甚至是一般豬農遇到這樣的狀況，我認為農業部都應該更積極，如果確保它是安全的，都應該協助他們儘快度過這個難關。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為台糖是國家的，虧也是虧人民的，當然我認為這件事情應該還要有更積極的處理，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，了解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望他們是安全的就應該要讓他們能順利的上架。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，我們會來協助。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不然損失會持續的擴大，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來要謝謝農業部對前鎮漁港的支持？其實我們前鎮漁港幾乎是被抹了半年的時間，不管是從一開始3,000萬元簡單的整理，到後來我們的爭取，而且是在我擔任的時候爭取了10億元的經費，最後院長大概也看到下水道五十年沒做，包括周邊的船漁服務中心該做，外籍漁工來這邊被看到在路邊洗澡，這些都讓臺灣的國際形象觀感不好，我們也都知道一類漁港是中央主管的漁港，五十年來沒做的事情，我認為做這些事情都是應該的啦！這段時間以來不斷的遭到攻擊及抹黑，半年來我沒看到有任何人去檢舉、甚至是檢調去調查，都沒有！罵完之後就跑，跑了之後就沒事了，我認為國家的建設不應該是這樣的發展。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長怎麼看待這整件事情？"],["陳代理部長駿季：當初前鎮漁港的擴建是有它的時間序，至於最後的核定，其實蘇院長看到的是整體的部分，而不是看到該修一個東西就修一個，所以整體包括漁市場、包括漁……"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個當然是不一樣的東西，本來只是做個簡單的整理，到後來還加了很多的加強，包括五十年沒做的下水道，原先的3,000萬元並沒有下水道嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：很多該做的事情，後來爭取到該做的時候，建設本來就是該進行的，你去抹黑、攻擊它，甚至質疑是不是有歪哥、是不是有貪污，這個都過頭了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這半年來完全沒有任何一個案子立案調查，連檢舉的都沒有。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們絕對禁得起檢視。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果還有這樣的事情，我希望未來農業部應該要更積極的澄清及說明。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我也認為臺灣社會要進步就不應該朝這個方向走。"],["陳代理部長駿季：了解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：政治人物的嘴巴如果都是這樣隨意亂講、不負責任的講，其實對認真做事的公務員都是不公平的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我舉個例子，像我們的下水道工程已經在今年的1月7日完工了，整個下水道工程完工之後，對於整個區域排水的部分，漁港的水就會非常乾淨。"],["賴委員瑞隆：高雄市是直轄市，全高雄市只有這個地點是五十年來還沒有做下水道的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：凸顯出本來就該進行的事情。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：最後一個問題要請教一下，鮮乳的部分，國內很多人都喜歡鮮乳，當時有提到國外的乳品進到臺灣，目前國內的鮮乳是14天、國外進來的鮮乳可能可以到90天。部長，原先有講到1個月內會提出鮮乳與非鮮乳的一些明確定義方案，這個出來了嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們已經與所有的乳品業者進行相關的討論，也初步做了一些規劃，應該在3月底之前會送到衛福部那邊討論。我要強調最主要是殺菌的方法，因為有低溫、有高溫、有超高溫的部分，還有後續的包裝是不是在無菌的狀態之下，所以這個部分我們希望用長效乳的方式……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我只是希望適度的讓國人知道，一方面做一些區隔，一方面也是讓國人知道，我們自己的產品是在14天內的，這是最……"],["陳代理部長駿季：報告委員，其實以我們國內的技術而言，就算是要3個月也可以，但相對的是國人購買的習性……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們的需求不需要拉到那麼長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，不需要拉到那麼高。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對。"],["陳代理部長駿季：其實……"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是我認為市場上有做區隔的話，國人就會更好選擇。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會搭配臺灣鮮乳的標章去區別國產的鮮乳。"],["賴委員瑞隆：最後一個，希望未來對於產地的標示也能一起思考，就像我們的豬肉產地標示一樣，好不好？如此一來，對於我們臺灣一些乳品的相關產業都會有幫助。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝召委、謝謝部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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本來說3月初嘛今天已經3月初了實案辦應該會做一些 我跟你說這個事情其實是當然我們經過這樣檢測當然大家對於台灣的豬肉是有信心的啦也都沒有問題的但是總是有一個更確切的出來之後總是一個更科學更用專家的一個調查出來的結果讓國人更加的放心那也同時也瞭解為什麼這事情會這樣子發生啦我們希望確保"},{"start":190.41,"end":205.772,"text":"台灣的豬肉也確保未來台灣大家食安上的一個安全是大家更有信心的我想食安辦最後會中整兩個部會本身的那我再問一下部長啦就這件事情這樣的發生有沒有什麼樣的一些標準作業程序上面是出了一些問題可以更加改進的"},{"start":206.312,"end":233.184,"text":"我想在整個的我們農業部負責的這個就是市場上市前的這些部分應該我們的農民因為現在的租價也還不錯的價格他沒有任何理由因為乙型受理術也是禁用的沒有任何理由去使用這個乙型受理術這是第一個部分那至於後市場的檢驗的部分那其實很多檢驗的部分以農業部來講我們做檢驗的時候當然都會多抽取幾件做備份"},{"start":234.095,"end":258.906,"text":"萬一檢測的時候會有一些可能的誤差的時候還可以啟動另外我舉例好了啦如果現在是由農業部去查到這樣的狀況下的時候那你們會不會更謹慎來做一個我想以農業部的的檢測的一個流程裡面來講我們會分兩個部分齁就是當他的數值比較接近於檢測極限的時候很接近的時候對然後他的本身的檢測的那個那個"},{"start":263.386,"end":287.433,"text":"我們就會更謹慎地去拿另外一個備份的樣品去重新做檢測然後檢測出來如果結果一致性的時候才會去做後續的處理我希望這些東西都在未來啦我們都希望這樣的事情應該去那個就是說我也希望除了衛生單位的一些經驗我也希望農業單位因為你們是租租資的這個主管租農的權益都在你們的手上"},{"start":287.813,"end":305.41,"text":"我也希望你們能夠適度的表達一些意見給所有的各政府單位在這件事情上面能夠更加謹慎的想因為就我們的常理的判斷台糖它是國營事業基本上沒有去造假的利益的空間更何況這個東西它沒有實際成本上面沒有就是你看不到它的動機"},{"start":306.571,"end":330.949,"text":"所以沒有動機狀態下的時候 當發生事情的時候 恐怕必須要再三去推救他為什麼會發生這樣的狀況 這樣恐怕比較不會產生現在發生的事件是台糖 若是一般的豬農的話 這個豬農恐怕承受不了這一個月這樣的處理所以我說這段時間豬價都很不錯 但是我也認為也因為發生這個事件之後 我相信國人在使用豬肉產品的時候 一定受到很大的一個影響"},{"start":331.63,"end":354.787,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":354.827,"end":355.127,"text":"我希望農業部要表達意見"},{"start":383.433,"end":406.955,"text":"台糖也是豬農萬一這是其他一般的豬農的話那恐怕大概是倒定了啦對啊他後面的球場恐怕先倒了在球場還不知道球場什麼時候所以我意思說我認為這件事情應該農業部還是要有他的立場在我再舉個例子好了啦我自己其實本身我都會買台糖的豬肉你看這段時間到昨天到今天早上說台糖的梅花肉到現在是完全捕獲中捕獲中"},{"start":408.237,"end":408.677,"text":"您知道他申請了嗎?"},{"start":438.559,"end":452.151,"text":"我瞭解在上個禮拜他們有說他們會去申請我例如說一方面我希望這個調查盡快出來因為出來的時候大家更有信心另一方面如果對台糖的部分不要說是一般台糖就其他甚至豬農會遇到這樣的狀況下我認為農業部都應該都應該更繼續如果確保他是安全的都應該給予協助他們盡快度過這個難關"},{"start":459.537,"end":473.87,"text":"因為他是台糖是國家的虧也是虧人民的那當然我認為這事情應該要有更積極的一些處理啦好不好我希望他們是安全的是那個話那就應該讓他們能夠能夠讓他們能夠順利的上架要不然這個損失會持續的擴大好不好"},{"start":477.854,"end":496.586,"text":"再我請教一下 當然也要謝謝這個 農業部來支持錢振宇港的我這要講的是這樣啦 半年前的時候我們錢振宇港幾乎是被抹了半年的時間啦那最後從一開始不管是從3000萬的簡單的整理的部分到後來我們爭取 那還是我擔任的時候來爭取的10億的一個"},{"start":501.069,"end":523.538,"text":"這個那到後來院長們大概看到下水道50年沒做包括周邊的船員服務中心該做外勞來這邊外籍的漁工來這邊的時候被看到在路邊洗澡叫在洗澡然後這些都讓台灣的國際形象是不好那我們都知道一類漁港這是中央主管的漁港50年來沒做的事情我認為做這件事情都是應該的啦那我覺得這一段時間其實是被這樣的不斷的"},{"start":524.918,"end":549.11,"text":"公職跟抹黑這半年來我沒有看到任何人有去檢舉甚至去檢調去查甚至什麼都沒有罵完之後就跑跑了以後就沒事了我認為其實這國家的建設不應該是這樣的發展我也認為部長怎麼看待這整件事情我想當初前面漁港的一個擴建當然他有他的時間跟時間序那最後核定的其實當初的蘇院長"},{"start":549.65,"end":570.111,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":570.131,"end":586.841,"text":"就是很多該做的事情後來爭取到該做的時候建設本來就是該進行的你把那個東西去抹黑它去攻擊甚至是不是有歪戈是不是有貪汙這個都過頭了這半年來完全沒有任何一個案子去立案去調查連檢舉都沒有檢舉所以我的意思說如果像這樣的事情有的話我還是希望未來農業部要更積極的去做澄清跟說明我也認為社會臺灣如果要進步不應該朝這個方向走"},{"start":594.825,"end":621.094,"text":"正正的嘴巴如果都是這樣隨意亂講不負責任的講的話其實對所有認真做事的公務員都是不公平的我舉個例子像我們的下水道工程已經在今年的1月7日完工了那整個下水道工程完工以後對於整個區域的排水的部分對於漁港的水就會非常乾淨高雄市是指甲市啦高雄市只有這個地點是50年來還沒有做下水道的所以就是凸顯出本來就該進行的事情好不好我希望這個"},{"start":622.254,"end":641.906,"text":"最後一個問題我請教一下鮮乳的部分 國內很多人很喜歡用鮮乳也喜歡鮮乳但是我們現在鮮乳的部分當時有提到就是國外的一些乳品進到台灣來 我們鮮乳是14天 國外的可能可以到90天那部長原先有講到一個月內會提出鮮乳跟非鮮乳的一些明確定義方案 這個出來了嗎"},{"start":642.987,"end":667.632,"text":"我想我們已經跟我們的所謂的乳品業者也相關的討論然後也初步有在規劃一些已經送到在應該在2月底應該3月底之前會送到送到行政院沒有送到衛生部那邊去討論那我要強調的是國外的因為最主要是殺菌的方法因為有低溫有高溫有超高溫的部分還有後續的包裝是不是在無菌的狀態之下"},{"start":669.192,"end":691.917,"text":"所以這個部分我們希望說用長效率的方式我只是希望適度的讓國人知道啦一方面也做一些區隔一方面也是讓國人知道說我們自己的產品其實是14天內的我跟委員報告其實以我們國內的技術我們要3個月也可以可是相對的就是說國人的購買的信息對我們的需求不需要拉到那麼長對不需要拉那麼高對所以其實"},{"start":692.777,"end":711.434,"text":"但是我認為市場上如果有做一些那個的話其實會讓國人更好做一些選擇啦另外最後我也希望未來有機會也讓那個產地的標示也能夠也許思考就像我們的豬肉產地的標示一樣好不好就是說我覺得這個對台灣的一些我們的乳品相關的產業都會有相當的幫助啦"}]}},{"id":"149256","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149256","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd7c50cb2009d5db7f2dd7be9832461c05f8ba9b0039caa7a6ac97dd6a17630d805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"11:56:39 - 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海洋科技研究中心 海洋科技研究中心"},{"start":293.563,"end":294.104,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":324.243,"end":339.994,"text":"這間屋是八角樓,旁邊有雜草叢森。過去這八角樓是一個送親人碼頭的一個好的一個賣東西的地方,在那裡休息,看美景的地方,現在就閒置在那裡。這是高雄財產署的地,現在每天走過去我就想哭。"},{"start":346.377,"end":367.451,"text":"好好的地點、好好的風景近年沒有發生幾次也不是說市政府沒心,這個是屬於國產署的地所以一定要中央用主要的管道協調我們這個同仁羅伊參國產署、羅伊參企業署、羅伊參國產署市政府的協調看要怎麼把這個情人碼頭、這個園區把它活化起來"},{"start":374.261,"end":375.942,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":400.782,"end":407.56,"text":"謝謝委員的鼓勵,這個案子我們馬上來了解。好,謝謝主委,多謝。好,邱委員發言完畢。"}]}},{"id":"149254","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149254","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd2f0cad775f552718faa0e83a28976539f8ba9b0039caa7a6d3bedd1894df3de15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"11:47:24 - 11:53:29","影片長度":"00:06:05","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":365,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:53:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:47:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":666,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（11時47分）謝謝主席。請主席請吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員你好，恭喜。"],["陳委員俊宇：謝謝吳主委。吳主委持續以來都在關心我們宜蘭縣相關的這些重大工程及許多的建設，還有吳主委過去在擔任代理縣長的任內，對於宜蘭縣的付出，俊宇在此表示最大的敬意跟謝意，謝謝吳主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：不敢，謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：我想就教吳主委，對於宜蘭縣我們未來有一個","關鍵的黃金十年，相關內容包括交通、醫療、產業，還有休閒方面也就是觀光休閒；其實在這幾個面向裡面，俊宇個人認為比較重要的是交通跟醫療，我也要謝謝我們中央政府對宜蘭縣的這個部分，所核定的相關內容表示肯定。今天因為時間的關係，我想請教主委的是鐵路高架的這個部分，目前宜蘭縣鐵路高架部分─從冬山到宜蘭礁溪的這一段，總長度大概是15.84公里，可是相關的配合款對一個非直轄市的縣市─宜蘭縣來講，可以說是非常沉重的負擔；反觀直轄市在相關交通建設的推動過程裡面，重大交通建設由中央全額支付的情況比比皆是。在此，我想建議的是，對於非直轄市的部分，像宜蘭縣的鐵路高架，我們是不是有辦法可以來核定一個距離─15公里內的工程費用是不是由中央全額來支付？主委您認為有沒有可能？"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員剛剛提到的幾個，像國立陽明醫學附醫……"],["陳委員俊宇：對。"],["吳主任委員澤成：還有鐵路高架等等的這些工程，對於宜蘭縣都是非常重要的工程項目。"],["陳委員俊宇：對。"],["吳主任委員澤成：現在各部會包括衛福部、交通部也都已經在進行相關的規劃後期，也就是可行性報告的審查階段，委員希望能夠趕快協調推動……"],["陳委員俊宇：對。"],["吳主任委員澤成：我想這個部分雖然不是工程會主管，但我願意以工程會的立場邀請這些部會來協調，到時候也請委員參加，一起來推動，讓這些計畫能夠加速地來進行、定案、並付諸實施。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝主委。因為這個鐵路高架對於宜蘭縣要縫合東西向的經濟發展是非常重要的一個工程，也能夠消弭23個平交道，讓我們所有的用路人在通行的時候更加安全。所以，我在此還是要懇切地拜託吳主委，能夠對這個工程多重視，並對經費方面能夠有一個更好、更完善的配套，讓我們在推動的過程裡面，可以更順遂。","另外2月份已有一份環評報告出來，類似有卡關，針對這部分，是不是請吳主委能夠有更好的一個溝通方式，來解決環評的這個問題，才能夠順利地來推動我們的鐵路高架，這樣子才不會耽誤到動工完工的日期。我在此要再次拜託我們吳主委對於這個工程的重視，還有相關環節的溝通協調，真的要拜託吳主委來幫忙。因為蔡總統1月份到宜蘭時，也很明確的指出，行政院會對於我們這個綜合規劃給予最大的支持，我也希望各部會包括交通部，對於這個工程，還有後續包括高鐵東延以及重大的台62線，都能夠一併來做比較好的時程規劃，讓宜蘭縣在對外的交通路網可以盡早有一個比較完善、比較好的打通。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，我們把這幾個案子都列入協調會報來協調，委員再一起來指教，一起來努力。"],["陳委員俊宇：謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：謝謝。"],["主席：陳委員發言完畢，現在請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林沛祥","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","游顥","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳俊宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.52034375,"end":1.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.57221875,"end":23.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.402843750000002,"end":24.465968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.820343750000003,"end":26.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.329718750000005,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.595343750000005,"end":54.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.759718750000005,"end":35.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.507843750000006,"end":54.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.284093750000004,"end":54.773468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.94221875,"end":72.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.26846875000001,"end":81.08159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.43596875,"end":99.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.77471875,"end":103.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.01471875,"end":116.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.71721875,"end":119.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.04596875000001,"end":125.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.22221875000001,"end":130.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.93034375000002,"end":171.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.39221875,"end":173.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.75471875000002,"end":178.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.63596875000002,"end":181.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.43721875,"end":181.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.70721875,"end":184.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.11596875,"end":187.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.78221875,"end":189.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.84096875,"end":191.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.62971875000002,"end":195.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.69659375,"end":196.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.27034375000002,"end":197.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.43034375000002,"end":199.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.62846875000002,"end":200.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.16409375,"end":202.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.68284375000002,"end":206.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.80034375000002,"end":208.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.87596875000003,"end":210.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.58034375000003,"end":211.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.96409375000002,"end":212.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.49971875,"end":214.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.66409375,"end":216.65534375000001},{"spe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謝謝主委因為這個鐵路高架對於我們宜蘭縣要縫合我們東西向的經濟發展是非常重要的一個這個工程那也能夠消弭23個平交道讓我們所有的用路人在通行的時候更加安全所以在此我還是懇切的拜託我們吳主委對這個工程的這個重視"},{"start":263.238,"end":273.765,"text":"並且對於我們這個所謂的經費方面能夠有一個更好更完善的一個配套讓我們在推動的過程裡面可以更順遂那針對在2月份也有一份這個"},{"start":278.709,"end":298.361,"text":"反評的報告出來類似有卡關那我也請我們吳主委是不是針對這部分我們應該是能夠更好的一個溝通方式來把這個反評的這個問題來解決才能夠順利的來推動我們這個鐵路高架這樣子我相信"},{"start":299.221,"end":323.341,"text":"在這個動工跟完工的日期才不會去這個登錄到所以在此我真的再次的拜託我們吳主委對於這個工程的一個重視還有這個相關環節的這個溝通協調真的要拜託我們吳主委來幫忙因為在1月份我們蔡總統到宜蘭也很明確的指出行政院會"},{"start":324.722,"end":352.41,"text":"對於我們這個綜合規劃給予最大的支持那我也希望說我們在各部會包括我們交通部對於這個工程還有後續包括這個高鐵東延還有我們這個重大的這個台62線都能夠一併來做比較好的這個時程的規劃讓宜蘭線對於對外的這個交通路網可以儘早來有一個比較完善比較好的一個打通"},{"start":353.15,"end":361.979,"text":"我們把這幾個案都列入協調會報來協調委員在一起來指導一起來努力謝謝主委"}]}},{"id":"149253","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149253","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddd1ab2805fd8e2762a874ae98c1f56169f8ba9b0039caa7a6388debce7e7cfb5a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:47:50 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港的一個母基地它的功能不一樣的所以我說我們會支持然後看看他所提的規則我跟你講他發揮的效益會很大我從來不亂做事情好不好拜託"},{"start":186.013,"end":202.428,"text":"不然等一下邱志文說我話講得很長啊再來我推了八年的厚隆雜糧專區已經討論了八年已經通過國會審議但是最後被行政院推了"},{"start":203.393,"end":216.99,"text":"我覺得行政院退回的話對我們地方農民的傷害很大那這雜糧專機8年來我經過部長、農娘市、林業市、地方共同討論大家都跟我講沒有問題"},{"start":218.528,"end":246.542,"text":"結果上次審查只有臺南的民主專區過他說陳超明選立法委員的時候競爭的很激烈藍部可以過苗栗不能過我感覺這就不對了我跟委員說明我們在針對這些產業專區本身特別是保安理解變的部分絕對不會因為委員個人的當然你是這麼講但是感受不一樣你們當初說陳正恩信誓旦旦突然就跟我改變了"},{"start":247.362,"end":272.484,"text":"我最先你說的是官方的話我們心中只有我睡到半年了蔡英文當總統到她要卸任的時候都沒有完成這個效力我要怎麼來講所以剛剛執事委員他說啊他是在野黨、他是執政黨、我是在野黨當然我要多講一些啊應該有的到最後都變沒有啊"},{"start":274.11,"end":290.457,"text":"南部的那個部分大概他也大概來來回回大概10多年了他講經濟效益沒有其實你們不了解沒有去看我們白沙屯的鳳天宮啊白沙屯罵幾年500萬的進香客他到這邊只有不到1公里"},{"start":291.497,"end":318.717,"text":"還有好望角觀光風景期也全部在推了將來的效益很大還有你那個保安你不可能給你恢復什麼經濟效益你保安你幾百年來就是這樣子還要恢復種林業吉長在那比較不好意思真的種的不怎麼那個活的好天天農民都來跟我吵架所以部長十一下例我農黨會推出來好不好"},{"start":319.747,"end":346.14,"text":"我想還是再跟委員說明一下當我們的保安林解編以後變成產業專區我們一個非常重要的前提這個產業專區本身它的必要性那相關的現在的產業專區的必要性跟它的面積其實它佔國內的那個雜糧的比例非常低那保安林還是有保安林存在的必要性所以我們會協助就是說那個地方佔的很小不會啦幾百人就這樣存在的你這個政府好像"},{"start":349.741,"end":362.408,"text":"我拉幾百年就這樣,你要去恢復也難恢復啊,還要種樹木也種不起來啊,不是我跟您講的。哈,一定了解一下,好不好。我要請那些評審委員下來了解一下。"},{"start":364.701,"end":366.642,"text":"陳部長,我瞭解你背景。你從農業試驗所一直過來了。怎麼那麼快?"},{"start":391.55,"end":401.906,"text":"沒有關係 出資委我尊重他的說法因為他執政黨 我在野黨 我要多講一些啊 不然我選舉被欺負得很慘你這裡面"},{"start":404.761,"end":432.381,"text":"裏面有談到一個抗逆境作物示範區你又特別專長我看了除了穩固往事的內容但是這裏面你說開挖調試的機制有93項一層抗耐逆境作物有87種我不看了你拿這87種做抗耐逆境作物因為我這很重視"},{"start":433.522,"end":448.661,"text":"因為我從偶然一個資料讀到公園院的資料那在苗栗我要求栽種烏角綠栗子省的來栽培現在青龍有種起來他說種的跟義姑的一樣"},{"start":450.2,"end":474.968,"text":"大概3年才能收成那要試驗它的甜度因為那個植子跟那個植繩的種起來如果海邊能種起來那是整個改變海邊你只能種木馬黃的現象我很重視這個所以這個在這邊啦你要特別的關注一下但是我看你們好像沒東西"},{"start":476.697,"end":488.248,"text":"我跟委員說明我也是來自試驗單位我非常了解我們國內的試驗單位本身的育種能力而且他們也的確育出不同的耐逆境的品種特別在海邊的話可能要耐鹽還有耐風"},{"start":490.831,"end":491.831,"text":"那這是小潛颱風的時候"},{"start":520.558,"end":540.72,"text":"我發覺一個問題本來可以高票當選結果發覺哇這個政府你們農業部把我搞得慘兮兮頭非常痛我們縣裡地區叫做苗栗的農場他那邊的農民他那邊種的稻田每年的收入是苗栗縣排名第一"},{"start":542.768,"end":559.257,"text":"他的隔壁是大安區這次小前台灣來的時候那個叫大安區好像是大安隔壁那個叫什麼區我們那個後龍同一個地區大安區有賠償"},{"start":569.642,"end":592.908,"text":"有農業保險的一個賠償,隔壁的燕里沒有賠償同樣的一個地區,燕里是苗栗的農場結果他說因為以前在報的時候,產量的時候燕里報的太低,大安區報的太高但是我相信我們燕里的時候比大安區還要好"},{"start":593.908,"end":614.138,"text":"他都是行的。他那些農民不怎麼努力等著土地長。我們這邊是比較農業縣市的。我們院裡的農民種的稻真的是很好。也算苗栗縣最高的一個地。阿這邊有補償、阿這邊保險沒有補償。又是那個老問題。"},{"start":615.88,"end":630.596,"text":"聽說有一個立法委員去選了,你們執政黨的,所以農業保險有補償。我的縣裡第7一會我再選,我算比較直角,結果沒有通過。我這裏面一個問題最好瞭解。"},{"start":636.246,"end":658.829,"text":"鄉鎮公所報的地方到底那個標準不標準我一直要求你們改善每一個地區因為鄉鎮公所有牡蠣跟沒有牡蠣的所以它五年的那個稻穀的產量報出來有的先是隨便亂報我這又問了情形我希望你重新評估一下"},{"start":660.633,"end":680.16,"text":"你這樣了解我講的意思嗎?稍微等一下,等一下,我再回答你,你隨時回答我一下,就是你講的提供服務,來我向委員報告,我們農業保險本身,我們是根據我們的一個平割或全割的產量,跟過去5年相比"},{"start":680.916,"end":705.121,"text":"那5年的資料是農業統計聯報的他是唯一公開的一個資訊啊誰替你報的然後我們本身吼像以院理來講吼雖然他的農業保險領不到但是天然災害救助他有領導天然災害只有一部分的啦他是全箱補償而且我們的取樣點不不不那個部長我安若跟你強調天然災害是我去處理我答應下來我講話算話"},{"start":706.821,"end":733.044,"text":"你們一直講農業的保險很困難好有災害那大安區沒有災害全鄉補償啊所以那個彥旅鎮的農民都在煩惱說我不夠力我怎麼樣啊報告委員部就算天然災害開了他20%也是鄉公所要去現勘的不是說免現勘啊對啦所以實際有損失的我想整個天然災害就會到位大安區有全鄉損失彥旅鎮就沒有全鄉損失在隔壁捏"},{"start":734.121,"end":761.049,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149252","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149252","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd57c3e9cfbfa1d857baff13691fd5102bf8ba9b0039caa7a659817481ac32d1165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"11:42:49 - 11:58:49","影片長度":"00:16:00","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":960,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:58:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:42:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":740,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（11時42分）主席，部長您好。是不是可以先請潘部長上台？"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：部長，首先要向您恭喜，我們都是新北市人，過去也都有為新北市民貢獻的經驗。剛才本席聽到萬美玲委員向您道賀，您應該是中華民國史上在教育部擔任部長較長時間的人之一，先向您恭喜，您也辛苦了。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：今天本席站在這邊，身份不僅是中華民國的立法委員，也是一個對體育、運動產業很有熱忱，而且極為期待的中華民國公民，而且就本席過去的經驗，相信我們應該可以開啟一個對話窗口，一起推動福國利民的政策與行動。","首先本席想和部長探討一下帆船運動，我們知道最近政府有很多政策是針對福爾摩沙這個島嶼，雖然我們是一個海洋國家，但是我們在海洋事務以及海洋運動的推動上，還有需要再加把勁的地方。今天本席要先播放一段影片，這是一位中華民國公民追求奧運夢的影片。","（播放影片）"],["林委員倩綺：各位可以看一下，這是海上的帆船運動，後面停泊在……"],["潘部長世忠：委員，這是巴黎的那個基地嗎？"],["林委員倩綺：巴黎奧運的帆船比賽是在馬賽舉辦，這個船種在過去稱為雷射型。另外這是臺灣唯一進入奧運項目的風浪板，還有這是在奧運比賽當中，由女性開的，過去都稱為雷射型帆船。這是樂觀船，小朋友在開的。不知道部長看到這個畫面有什麼想法？因為這是他一直在追求的夢想。","自從這位公民開始學習帆船之後，在臺灣碰到的問題就是找不到教練，從宜蘭到新北，一直到東部、高雄、屏東，最後到西班牙，好不容易今年有機會參加在澳洲阿德雷得這個城市的master games，他很期待今年2月1日能夠在澳洲的海域上比賽帆船。你知道他2月1日在哪裡嗎？"],["潘部長世忠：請委員指教。"],["林委員倩綺：他2月1日就走在立法院的就職紅毯上，帶著奧運夢，號碼「196000」，上面有中華臺北號誌的帆船參賽者，就是本席自己。"],["潘部長世忠：是，非常敬佩委員。"],["林委員倩綺：原本是抱著參加奧運資格賽的期待，當然我們相信在這個過程中也會遇到很多困難。剛才，本席聽到好幾位委員對團體賽事有很多責難，例如籃球，做為一個曾經流浪在臺灣全島的帆船孤兒，本席也是一樣的心情，但與其責難他們，有沒有可能大家來一起推動這些事務？一起找出哪裡是可以補強的地方，讓我們繼續為未來的奧運好好努力，並且給予期待？這個部分本席也會繼續追蹤，當然我們期待最終能夠展現奧運的精神，就是追求卓越、永不放棄。","我們知道鄭署長在這個部分非常投入，據本席了解，您非常認真，而且也做得很好。本席有幾個建議，剛才說到團體賽，籃球和排球，這樣的團體賽對我們而言，的確在先天上有一些限制，但是本席覺得臺灣在足球方面的表現不凡，尤其是女足，讓各位知道一項訊息，過去女足在世錦賽等賽事中，其實只差臨門一腳就可以打進世界賽。","各位，如果我們能夠為接下來的世界賽好好做準備，本席相信2026年他們應該非常有潛力，這個部分本席會提供貴部一個非常具體的訓練計畫，也期待下一次的世界賽和奧運能夠看到我們的女足參與。本席相信這樣一定能夠帶起中華民國的運動魂，我們也才有可能擁有菁英的選手、追求卓越的奧林匹克選手，也會讓這樣的運動風氣帶動全民，讓我們成為一個真正的強國，本席期待看到這樣的可能性。","其實本席去年已經到巴黎奧運帆船比賽及足球比賽的所在地馬賽，在當地現勘兩年。請教鄭署長，部長也可以關注這件事，目前我們對2024奧運的期待和評估是什麼？你可以做個回應嗎？我們會拿多少金、多少銅、多少銀？8年前選訓時應該就確認了吧！或是已經有一些概念。今年你們的預估如何呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：基本上我們在賽前通常不會給選手太大的壓力，所以我這邊也不便給選手一個很明確的數字，但是我們給競技組和國訓中心的自我目標就是要突破東京奧運的兩面金牌。"],["林委員倩綺：2020年東京奧運，我們是二銀、六銅……"],["鄭署長世忠：兩面金牌。"],["林委員倩綺：對不起，是兩金、四銀、六銅。今年我們應該可以超越這個目標。"],["鄭署長世忠：我們盡力而為。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，這是肯定的。很遺憾，本席不知道還有沒有機會追上奧運夢，就算沒有機會，本席也期待在風帆的賽事上，未來我們可以有很卓越的成績。"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分我非常認同委員的建議。"],["林委員倩綺：對，我們期待不要缺席，至少先達到不要缺席的目標。目前能夠進入奧運的，大概只有風帆選手張浩，很榮幸的，本席昨天還碰到他。本席期待中華民國的運動風氣能夠在世界上展現，也相信我們有絕對的潛力，而且只要我們的團體賽事籃球、排球、足球都能夠進入資格賽，對我們的奧運成績絕對有正面的影響。"],["鄭署長世忠：帆船這個種類已經新增一個對亞洲人比較有優勢的風箏浪板，我們也開始全面性在各地進行補助，這部分我們會儘量投入。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，我們期待所有船型比賽時，都會看到中華臺北的旗幟飛揚在奧運場上。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。接下來本席想聊一個話題，大家知道本席是原住民阿美族嗎？本席也來自私立學校，所以今天本席想就原住民專班和私立學校退場機制和部長交流。我們先談原住民專班好了，本席在學界聽到許多同事說過，原住民專班是各校的提款機，其實本席個人在一些專案的申請上，也深深有這樣的體會。","其實本席過去對專班有很多想法，但我們今天先談原住民專班可能碰到的問題和未來改善、修正的方向。上個禮拜本席向貴部要相關資料，貴部要我們去查勞動部的平台。是什麼資料呢？就是原住民專班截至112年畢業的學生在就業市場中典型和非典型各有多少比例，也就是從原住民專班出來的，在就業市場占多少比例。同仁要我們去查勞動部的平台，但是我們並沒有查到針對原住民的部分。這個部分是不是可以請教育部協助？","其實你們去年有針對原住民專班做過一些檢討，例如就學時，原住民退學的比例就高於一般生的休學比例，原住民和一般生的休學率是9.3%比7.3%，這是我們算過的數據，是否可以針對這個部分進行深入了解，然後找出對策？本席個人對原住民專班一直有一種說不上來的感覺，因為本席一直覺得這樣好像是把我們圈養在一個框框裡。當然原本的立意是良好的，但是後來的狀況卻是學校賺學費，學生拿學位，如果順利的話，最後是教師賺鐘點費。","本席相信去年檢討後就應該了解其中的問題，例如師生比可能就有很大的問題，但是這個問題長年來一直沒有辦法解決，尤其是聘任原住民族的老師時，經常是用技術教師、技術講師或是專案教師的方式，這樣人力容易不穩定，而且可能會有其他狀況，這是各校或教育界的人都知道的。雖然貴部今年又增加原住民專班的經費，但它會不會成為各校更好用的提款機？","所以本席要請教育部特別針對原住民專班進行檢討，事實上這部分應該是為學生量身訂做，而不是為學校量身訂做。這個部分是否可以做具體檢討？讓我們找出更好的方式推動原住民專班。而且針對典型和非典型的就業問題方面，請你們也充分完備這樣的平台，好嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：好的，謝謝委員，這部分利用一點時間向委員補充說明。確實，這幾年我們一直把原民專班列為協助的重點政策……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝部長。因為本席來自私校，如果沒有為私校老師爭取一些權益，實在說不過去。教育部的退場機制、退場條例對私校的衝擊很大，本席先說一個個案就好，這個個案對教育部來說應該非常簡單，你們能夠先處理。有一些私校老師因為學校受到教育部政策影響倒閉，所以很多私校老師就想要趕快去找相關工作，這部分或許教育部可以協助，當許多私校老師找到更好的工作要離開時，卻受到學校的限制，因為聘約裡面有罰則，本席這邊就有一個例子，如果你們需要的話。","很多私校都有這樣的問題，但本席的學校沒有，因為我們是一個比較佛心的學校。這個部分是不是可以請教育部用行政命令或是行政指導的方式，請私校不要這樣做？因為貴部的退場條例讓很多私校老師不得不這麼做。原住民專班其實也碰到同樣的問題，許多私校目前都面臨這樣的狀況，因為這樣一來也會導致原住民生員減少，原住民教師可能也會有問題，所以本席覺得這個部分要謹慎、具體的檢討，本席也會隨時追蹤進度。","最後，本席1月25日看到一則很棒的新聞，是關於技職司的部分，未來要花52億元培育外國的學生，同時在臺灣大學設立專案辦公室，還有高雄的正修科大，新竹是明新科大，臺南是崑山科大，有這幾個學校，但是由臺灣大學成立專案辦公室，這52億元將投注在外國人身上。雖然我們的確有所謂的缺工問題，可是缺工問題是否可以透過經濟部編列預算？以這樣的預算規模來說，你們只要拿十分之一用在原住民的部分，應該就會產生很大的效益。","尤其是這些班，目前我們招收的是STEM領域，Science、Technology、Engineering和Mathematics，我們都知道這是非常主流的課程，半導體產業是我們的護國神山，還有8班屬於金融領域，有沒有可能在這裡面幫原住民闢建幾個專班？中華民國的教育經費不要都用在補助外國人，可以嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：教育資源主要是分散到不同面向的政策和對象，就像……"],["林委員倩綺：部長，不好意思，因為主席已經站起來，本席非常尊重我們……"],["潘部長文忠：好的，委員，我們再用詳細的書面資料向委員說明，好不好？讓委員了解這個部分。"],["林委員倩綺：是，本席也會定期追蹤。"],["潘部長文忠：像剛才委員對體育方面所提的意見，我很認真的聽，也真的很感佩。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：當時為了女足，因為那時在國外有疫情的問題，所以我們是包專機，就是因為他們已經戰到……"],["林委員倩綺：那時候我們很感動，就差那臨門一腳。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，那時候我們是半夜和外交部商量，再怎麼樣也要把孩子接回來，我們會用這種精神支持運動競賽。"],["林委員倩綺：對。對於籃球的部分，大家也要多一點同理心，因為本席自己就在外面當了很久的帆船孤兒，眼淚都快要掉下來了。"],["潘部長文忠：好的，如果委員有更好的發想和建議，請你隨時給教育部指導，好不好？謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。"],["主席：不用擔心。提醒林委員，我們未來還有70天可以質詢，不是只有這12分鐘，大家可以繼續討論，好不好？謝謝。謝謝部長。","請林委員宜瑾發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","林倩綺","林宜瑾","吳春城","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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O"},{"start":181.633,"end":184.678,"text":"自從這位公民開始學習帆船"},{"start":197.355,"end":214.316,"text":"之後呢在台灣我們所碰到的一個問題就是找不到教練所以從這個不管是宜蘭到新北然後一直到這個東部然後到了高雄到了屏東最後到了西班牙"},{"start":215.497,"end":235.568,"text":"好不容易他認為今年有機會參加在澳洲比賽的一個MASTER GAMES在阿德雷德這個城市比賽的一個MASTER GAMES那他很期待在今年的2月1號能夠在澳洲的海域上比賽這個帆船那你想他2月1號你知道他2月1號在哪嗎他2月1號就在立法院的走在立法院的就職紅毯上"},{"start":244.096,"end":264.127,"text":"所以這個帶有奧運夢的這位196010代表中華台北的這樣一個號誌的帆船是我自己是,非常敬畏委員奧運這個賽的這樣一個期待那當然我們相信在這個過程當中會有很多的困難"},{"start":265.187,"end":279.039,"text":"剛才我聽到好幾位委員對於我們整個的團體的這個賽事籃球有很多的責難那作為一個曾經流浪在台灣全島的帆船孤兒的我"},{"start":280.08,"end":284.943,"text":"我相信這個部分本席也會繼續追蹤當然我們期待追蹤的我們就是想要在奧運上能夠展現奧運的精神追求卓越永不放棄"},{"start":310.218,"end":338.575,"text":"我們知道鄭署長也是在這個部分非常的投入據我的了解您是非常認真而且做得很好的我這邊有幾個建議當然剛剛講到團體賽籃球跟排球我們知道這樣子的賽事其實可能對團體賽在先天有一些限制但是我覺得台灣在足球尤其是女足各位知道有個訊息就是過去女足在市警賽"},{"start":339.375,"end":353.877,"text":"世界賽呢其實就差檸檬一角就可以打進這個世界賽各位我們如果能夠為接下來的世界賽來做好好的準備我相信在2026年他們應該是非常具有潛力的"},{"start":354.418,"end":371.803,"text":"所以我想這個部分我會提供貴部一個非常具體的訓練計畫然後我期待在下一次的世界賽跟奧運能夠看到我們女足的團體賽那我相信這樣一個風氣一定能夠帶起我們中華民國在整島的一個運動魂"},{"start":373.684,"end":397.711,"text":"那這樣才有可能不僅我們有非常精英的追求卓越的奧林匹克選手那我們也會讓這樣子的運動帶動全民那我們就會成為一個真正的強國我期待能夠看到這樣子的一個可能性那當然了其實我去年在我已經到了巴黎奧運帆船比賽及足球比賽的這個所在地馬賽兩年了那我去現堪兩年了"},{"start":401.533,"end":428.156,"text":"所以我想請教一下鄭部長對不起鄭署長我想部長您也可以關注這件事署長我們對於2024奧運目前的期待跟這個評估您可以給我做一個回應嗎就是我們會拿多少金多少銅多少銀我想這個應該在8年前的選訓當中就已經確認了吧或者是已經有一點概念了所以今年您的一個預估呢"},{"start":428.789,"end":447.4,"text":"報告委員基本上我們在賽前也通常不會給選手太大的壓力所以我這邊也不變給選手一個很明確的數字但是當然我們的目標給我們的競技組跟國訓中心自我的目標就是要突破那個東京奧運的兩面好在2021年比賽的2020年東京奧運那我們是二贏"},{"start":453.184,"end":470.079,"text":"兩斤兩斤然後4贏6桶嗎兩斤4贏6桶那我想今年我們應該是可以超越這個目標我們盡力而為好的那肯定拿2028的奧運就算那個很遺憾的奧運夢我不知道還有沒有機會追上"},{"start":471.56,"end":489.607,"text":"我也期待在風帆的賽事上我們在未來可以有很卓越的成績這部分我認同,非常認同我們期待不要缺席至少先達到不要缺席因為目前能夠進入奧運的大概只有風帆的一位張浩選手那很榮幸的昨天還碰到了他"},{"start":491.809,"end":502.581,"text":"我期待我們一起為中華民國的運動在世界的展現上我相信我們有絕對的潛力而且只要我們的團體賽事籃球、排球、足球都能夠進入資格的話對於我們奧運的成績應該"},{"start":508.587,"end":509.508,"text":"我們期待所有的船型都會看到中華台北的旗幟飛揚在奧運場上"},{"start":531.84,"end":550.853,"text":"接下來我想聊一個話題。大家知不知道我是原住民阿美族的人。我也來自私立學校。所以今天我想就原住民專班跟私立學校退場機制來跟部長這邊做一個交流。"},{"start":551.793,"end":551.933,"text":"原住民專班"},{"start":583.354,"end":601.15,"text":"上個禮拜我跟貴部要相關的資料那貴部叫我們去查勞動部那這個資料是什麼呢就是原住民專班截至112年畢業的學生在就業市場裡面典型跟非典型各有多少比例就是從原住民專班出來的"},{"start":601.65,"end":601.67,"text":"獲獎獎項目"},{"start":632.19,"end":657.28,"text":"原住民的休學率當然是9.3比7.3這邊是我們算過所以在學的時候是不是可以針對這個部分去做相關的了解然後我們找出一個對策雖然我個人對於原住民專班一直有一種說不上來的感覺我一直覺得好像把我們圈養在一個地方然後圈養在一個框框裡當然利益良好"},{"start":659.341,"end":679.474,"text":"但是呢後來造就的一個狀況就是學校賺學費然後學生拿學位如果順利的話最後是教師賺終點費所以我相信去年這個檢討的平台應該了解師生筆可能有很大的一個問題但是這個長年一直沒辦法解決"},{"start":680.535,"end":709.001,"text":"那尤其是聘任原住民族的老師呢經常又用技術教師技術講師或是專案教師這樣子的一個不穩定而且可能有其他我們想各校都知道的一個狀況如果你在教育界所以雖然貴部在今年把原住民專班的這個經費又增加了但是他會不會是各校更多的一個提款機呢所以我請教一部"},{"start":710.137,"end":732.472,"text":"特別對原住民專班事實上應該為學生量身定做而不是為學校量身定做所以這個部分是不是可以有具體的檢討然後我們找出更好的方式來推動原住民族專班而且在典型跟非典型的就業上能夠讓大家充分的這個完備這樣子的一個平台好嗎"},{"start":734.129,"end":752.923,"text":"謝謝委員,我這部分一定先跟委員補充一下確實原民專班這幾年我們只把它列為在協助上的一個重點政策啦謝謝部長我很快的一下因為我來自私校那如果沒有為私校是爭取一些權益實在說不過去那當然教育部的退場機制這個退場條例對私校的衝擊很大那我先講一個個案就好"},{"start":756.305,"end":774.957,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":775.057,"end":776.638,"text":"請教育部用一種方式 行政命令或行政指導請私校不要這樣子做"},{"start":802.972,"end":803.332,"text":"委員會長潘文忠列席"},{"start":819.907,"end":829.651,"text":"所以這個部分我覺得要謹慎的而且非常具體來檢討那我也會隨時跟上這樣一個進度那最後呢就是我在1月25號看到我們的這個計時司有一則很棒的新聞就是我們未來要花52億來"},{"start":838.114,"end":859.241,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":860.161,"end":860.301,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":876.48,"end":894.295,"text":"我們目前教授的是STEM領域Science TechnologyEngineer跟Mathematics那我們都知道這是非常主流的課程那半導體這個是我們護國神山的一個產業還有金融領域八班那我們原住民有沒有可能在這裡面幫我們配件幾個專班不要變成中華民國的教育經費都在補助外國人"},{"start":905.349,"end":923.68,"text":"教育資源有不同面向的政策跟對象學生部長不好意思因為我們主席已經站起來了所以我非常尊重我們我們詳細的再用書面資料給委員做一個說明讓委員聊一下委員如果像剛剛你對體育那個我很認真聽真的很感佩當時為了女主啊"},{"start":924.36,"end":942.927,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":943.027,"end":943.147,"text":"接下來我們請﹐"}]}},{"id":"149251","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149251","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddda90daf14cec47697f012038cf3c9e62ff8ba9b0039caa7a6b1730338a11065015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:38:42 - 11:57:32","影片長度":"00:18:50","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院食品安全辦公室、衛生福利部部長、食品藥物管理署就「食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅事件處理之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":1130,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:57:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:38:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":808,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時38分）謝謝主席，請食藥署署長。"],["主席：請食藥署署長。"],["吳署長秀梅：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：署長好。署長所管理的業務裡面，最核心的就是食品跟藥品；我們都知道整個國家的管理制度，也就是你們的管理制度，不管是食品的安全，還是藥品的安全，最核心的前提就是業者自律這個前提。顯然我們的政府在經過多年食安事件以後也要求要追溯追蹤系統，但是根據監察院2020年的報告指出，按照食品衛生管理法規定所申請登錄的業者有47萬5,736家次，但是你們強力要求要建立這個追溯追蹤系統、參加食品雲的家數只有1萬家，47萬跟1萬的比例是2%，在這種狀況裡面，事實上，你們今天的報告也講得很好聽。你們今天的書面報告說：食藥署的風險預警、預判功能是有預判的，所以你們要強化風險預警分析，導入數據分析輔助風險偵測，然後針對高違規、高關注、高風險的產品進行預判。你們今天還講到要強化風險預警、預判功能，結果不僅沒有預警、預判，連登錄都沒有，然後強制要登錄追溯追蹤的只有2%業者。在這裡，消費者一路走來始終是發生食安事件以後，只能說「歹勢」、「含致癌物質的藥品我已經吞一大堆了！」、「含致癌物質的添加物我已經吃下去一大堆了！」。那我今天就問你最核心的一件事，請問：辣椒粉輸入有沒有在食品追溯追蹤系統的登錄體系裡面？有沒有強制規定要登錄？"],["吳署長秀梅：報告委員。因為這個業者如果是有工廠登記的……"],["林委員淑芬：不是這個業者，我在講辣椒粉這個品項！"],["吳署長秀梅：OK，有。"],["林委員淑芬：針對這次出事的辣椒粉，請問是依據你們哪一項規定參加登錄？"],["吳署長秀梅：我們的規定有資本額3,000萬元以上，然後要有工廠登記。"],["林委員淑芬：我知道啦！那請問他們有沒有嘛！現在出事的有沒有參加食品登錄？有追溯系統嗎？有沒有上游流向、從哪裡進來？有下游流向、知道跑到哪裡嗎？"],["吳署長秀梅：保欣公司必須執行追溯追蹤。"],["林委員淑芬：那它有沒有執行？我在問你，它是根據什麼規定要執行？在旁邊的技正、組長去旁邊，我問你們署長，這是核心業務，你們署長卻還要你在旁邊教她！"],["吳署長秀梅：有，保欣公司有執行。"],["林委員淑芬：你不要在這裡騙委員！難怪大家都說國會要有聽證制度。","應建立食品追蹤追溯系統的食品業者有幾類、有幾項？"],["吳署長秀梅：我們這邊一共有25類。"],["林委員淑芬：25類？那它是第幾類？你說給我聽聽看。"],["吳署長秀梅：它屬於輸入業者。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！第幾個序號、第幾類？它恐怕是沒有登錄、沒有被要求、被強硬規定要建立食品追蹤、追溯系統的吧！監察院講了47萬家，而你們強硬要求規定的都以3,000萬元規模以上的居多；當然也有小型的，比如說高風險的也要。但是辣椒粉根本就不在25類裡面，我想不通你怎麼預判風險？你從哪裡可以溯源？你當然沒有辦法溯源，也不知道流向啊！你現在查到的都是海關比對資料勾稽出來的吧？你就回答我。你們在這裡都說謊！"],["吳署長秀梅：報告委員，這裡有第23類農產品，它是屬於農產植物、菇類、還有藻類製品輸入業者這一類。"],["林委員淑芬：好。那我現在就再問你，第23類是植物製品、菇類、藻類，那它是菇類還是藻類製品？"],["吳署長秀梅：它是農產植物。"],["林委員淑芬：好。我再問你，為什麼你們要這樣自己擠牙膏、慢慢擠、擠這麼久？從1月8日檢舉人檢舉、檢舉人是濟生，他們的SGS檢驗檢出含有蘇丹紅嘛！然後雲林縣政府去查廠，1月22日再去後市場買產品送到衛福部。關於送到衛福部，今天包括劉建國委員也講，就算不要講1月8日，至少確認的時間是1月30日，你們卻從1月30日一直拖，拖到2月20日才暫停21家近年曾經進口不合格、輸入不合格中國辣椒粉的業者輸入3個月。","你在今天的報告提到，大家才發現去年年中、5月22日，我的辦公室跟你們要了資料，是你們FDA提供的資料，顯示這5年裡面對中國辣椒粉抽驗的比例、不合格的批數，根據你們提供的資料，去年抽驗了27%的比例，不合格的批數是22批，那不合格比例是多高？"],["吳署長秀梅：其中屬於蘇丹紅的有7批。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你的是不合格比例。"],["吳署長秀梅：去年中國來的是330批。"],["林委員淑芬：好，我現在問你，光是你給我們的22批不合格產品，是指含蘇丹紅還是所有含農業的？"],["吳署長秀梅：含蘇丹紅的有7批，含農藥的有16批。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那我現在要跟你講的這件事情是食安辦的資料跟你們根本對不起來，光是5月22日不合格的有3批，8月15日─去年喔！不合格的有6批，9月13日不合格的有7批，12月11日不合格的是13批，去年在半年內就超過29批、加起來超過29批。"],["吳署長秀梅：因為這是累計的，有些是含有農藥，所以如果以去年來講……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在就是在講全部不合格批次啊！你給我們的數字是22批，但我們再比對食安辦的資料，光是半年內─去年5月22日到12月21日就有29批，所以你們提供給我們的數據連你們自己也兜不起來。","我還要講，你們從5月22日之前就發現很多產品不合格，所以才把抽驗比例提高到20%。在5月之前，你們就發現很多不合格情況，所以在5月就提高到20%，但驗出來之後又發現非常多不合格情形，所以你們在去年8月又把抽驗比例提到高到30%。抽驗了又發現還是有很多不合格，到了9月再把抽驗比例提高到50%，接著又發現很多不合格產品，才會到了12月乾脆因為中國來的產品邊境不合格情況這麼多，提高抽驗比例到100%。根據相關法規─食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法來講，事實上就是非常、非常多，每次抽驗都不合格，再抽驗又不合格，才會變成100%抽驗。","那我現在問你抽驗之後的做法。你們在邊境抽驗出這麼多不合格產品，不合格產品抽驗到了，你們有沒有到後市場繼續抽驗？"],["吳署長秀梅：有。"],["林委員淑芬：你們在源頭邊境抽驗這麼高比例、這麼多批都不合格、發現中國來的辣椒粉摻了蘇丹紅或其他農藥超標這麼嚴重，那有沒有做後市場監測、繼續把關？"],["吳署長秀梅：有，我們如果在邊境查到不合格的產品，就會把相關資訊回饋到後市場，地方政府就會查相關產品。"],["林委員淑芬：到底查了多少次、保留哪些紀錄？"],["吳署長秀梅：我們後來回饋到地方政府這邊的，在今年度1月至2月20日抽了60……"],["林委員淑芬：好，不要再講！我聽不下去！因為從去年年初就一直驗不及格、驗不及格，但你們今年才處理。去年一整年，你們都沒有後市場抽驗，而今年你又說1到2月交給地方政府，不要再講了！今年1月8日檢舉人就向地方政府檢舉了，1月8日這個人是檢舉人，不是邊境查驗、再由FDA或地方政府主動到後市場查驗產品抽驗，都不是！整個案件也不是你們溯源追蹤系統查出來的，都不是！這是檢舉人起的頭！你們明明都知道源頭把關的邊境檢出這麼多不合格，可是還是怠忽職責、不願意積極辦理，仍然放任。","我要講第2張。我跟你們要了這5年裡面邊境查驗違反規定者，就整理了一些，你看這個名單，今天出事的過去都出過事了啦！所以你自己看看，保欣108年也有，還有今天提到的津棧─就是供應海底撈的津棧、佳廣，我告訴大家，不管它叫津棧、佳廣、釜山還是海順，統統都是同一家人、同一家族，登記在同一家公司，其中吳克敏還有兩家，所以他們都知道邊境查驗不合格沒關係，用其他公司再進口；這一家有問題，再用別的公司進口。你看，都是同一批人，六豐生物、綠風實業看起來好像不是，但在工商登記裡，他們都互為股東，都有公司相通。還有天崧企業，產品都檢出蘇丹紅色素。","我再講一件。我發現這家韓廣─我看了它的公司登記後，認為它進口的不只有中國辣椒。他們檢出含有蘇丹紅色素的、農藥超標的產品進口來源是哪一國？去年而已啊！他們就被檢出3批啊！是中國進口的嗎？是不是？它本來是一家韓國小吃店，後來成立另外兩家公司，是名叫「首爾」什麼的、還有「韓」什麼的公司。所以我今天要跟你講，從去年─其實也不是說去年，歷年來大家都知道辣椒和辣椒粉本來就是高風險的，而你們也查出來了，邊境、源頭都查出來了，可是你們從來不做後市場把關，沒有！而且後市場把關本來就很難了，我必須講為什麼很難。後市場把關為什麼難呢？因為原料摻入添加物，加工以後變成產品，會一直、不斷稀釋，所以在源頭把關、查出不合格、檢出違規、違法，這是比較容易的，到後市場要檢出不合格其實是比較困難的。可是這次事件是1月22日雲林縣政府查廠時發現原料有問題，還去後市場買，買來交給食藥署驗，結果這個後市場抽驗的產品仍然有蘇丹紅、還驗得出來，你就知道含量多麼地高、多麼嚴重！我們都知道要追溯、追蹤，你們當然也講「我們會增加預警、預判」，但你們連發現了都不繼續做。","我今天是在跟你講，你們現在禁止了21家中國食品輸出商，對不對？是不是？"],["吳署長秀梅：對。"],["林委員淑芬：那我問你，佳廣跟津棧輸入來源是中國大陸哪一家公司？"],["吳署長秀梅：「Kevin Shipping」。"],["林委員淑芬：「Kevin Shipping」？OK。但我們辦公室使用了中國的國家企業信用信息系統，發現沒有這一家公司。然後用Google查詢，你知道查到什麼公司嗎？針對「Kevin Shipping」，可以查到它是一家什麼公司嗎？我就問你，人家登錄了、也出事了，社會案件都爆發得這麼嚴重了，你也禁止了21家中國廠商進口、禁止「Kevin Shipping」進來了，可是我現在要問你有沒有這家公司？中國有沒有這家公司啊？為什麼一個食品出口商名字會叫「Shipping」、「Ship」？我在Google查到它是一家香港的船務公司啊！中文名字叫嘉運船務有限公司。你們進口的是一家不曉得在做什麼、也不知道是否真的有的公司，你們進了一家虛無縹緲的公司，它還以另一個名稱進來，所以我才講這樣怎麼對呢？你們總是讓我們吃下去以後再告訴我們這個有問題、在吃下去很多以後告訴我們，你們的風險預警系統根本就失靈！","然後，你看這些廠商，每年不斷、反覆違規，今年是這一家，明年是那一家，結果都是同一家族，還不斷違法。上有政策，下有對策，更何況你們上面根本沒在查。就算查到了也就這樣，再換一家公司；雖然是不同名稱的臺灣進口商，但負責人屬於同一家或同一家族。他們會換名字啊！一年裡面，「海順」公司不會一直用「海順」，下一批用「釜山」、再用「津棧」、再來用「佳廣」，輪流使用不同名稱，分散被查驗的機率和風險。你今天在這裡說現在沒有辦法一次告訴我們，但它明明就有這麼高的風險，而且屢屢被查出，都被查到你們還要100%查驗了，結果你們卻對後市場放任不管。徒法不足以自行啦！"],["吳署長秀梅：對於這種不該存在於食品當中的物質，我們會再百分之百逐批檢驗，也會在評估之後立刻停止這些產品的輸入。"],["林委員淑芬：你這個位子已經當幾年了啦？未來、未來，我們有食品雲幾年了，你還講未來、以後不會！你剛才回答上一位委員時講到如果查到就下架，如果沒查到呢？我們繼續吞下肚嗎？管理不是這樣。我們知道你們力有未逮，食品、藥品都靠業者自律，可是當業者不自律這麼久，我們也一直吞下肚、吞那麼久了，只能自求多福嗎？在這種狀況下，你們講預警、預判，但你們哪一次成功預警、預判？連數據都沒有、連流向都沒有，連這種那麼公開的、紙上公司這麼多，輪流進口的、同一個家族的、然後每年都違規的，後市場都放任不管，還要靠檢舉案！整個事件是檢舉案耶！與10年前沒有食品雲制度下的食安事件相比，還是回到原點，沒有更進步！所以我們今天在這裡提到監察院講的食品業者47萬家，強制登錄的則是2%，沒有登錄已經慘了，對於有登錄的，你們也沒辦法預判、沒有預警機制，統統都沒有，是靠檢舉的！我剛才也講了，你們現在只鎖定某些特定廠商或國家，但其他沒有嗎？其他沒有嗎？我剛才就舉一個例子給你了，高度可疑啊！也是累犯啊！這些都是累犯。","部長，以我這麼多年看來，署長不適任啦！不適任啦！沒有能力、不積極、也不用心，查到了仍然一樣不做後市場監控，只要求退關，業者毫無風險！為查獲不合格只被退關，他連成本負擔都沒有，因為產品沒有進來。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有進來就是一種負擔嘛！"],["林委員淑芬：既然零風險，若我是業者，我也敢。因為若照你們往年的作為，查到不合格只是退關而已，也不用賠錢啊！"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員。衛福部必須加強查核工作，剛才林委員提出非常多可能有疑慮的廠商，可能要加強查核。","處理臨時提案，總共有8案，請一併宣讀。","一、","監察院曾於2020年提出調查報告，指出目前規定應建立食品追溯追蹤系統之業者僅約占所有食品業者之2%，且有許多業者並未依法建立食品追溯追蹤系統。","經查，目前食品藥物管理署提供消費者查詢之「食品追溯追蹤管理資訊系統」，頁面設計過於複雜不易使用，且多數食品品項於系統中查詢不到，或登錄時間已過於陳舊，業者並未及時更新，難以發揮食品追溯追蹤之效果，無法保障消費者之飲食安全。","爰要求行政院食品安全辦公室及衛福部食品藥物管理署，加強食品雲與食品追溯追蹤管理資訊系統之互相勾稽，並就食品業者落實強制登錄之責任，擬定完善計畫與措施。","提案人：王育敏　　蘇清泉　　盧縣一　　陳菁徽　　涂權吉","二、","今（113）年食品藥物管理署查獲大量進口中國製辣椒粉，含致癌物「蘇丹色素三號」，雖食藥署已將中國製辣椒粉改為逐批查驗，並於3月1日公告輸入食品無論在邊境或後市場，一旦檢出違法添加物，立即停止輸入查驗，惟中國製辣椒粉已進入市場，並大規模利用於加工食品，目前下架高達兩萬六千餘公斤，危害國人食安甚鉅。","有鑑於大宗食品原料使用範圍廣泛，於市場擴散速度遠較其他食品更為快速，後續查緝更為困難，爰要求食藥署應針對食品原料，提高邊境查驗檢驗率，並研擬完善預警機制，提高問題食品下架速度。","提案人：王育敏　　蘇清泉　　盧縣一　　陳菁徽　　涂權吉","三、","主旨：","有鑑於行政院食品安全辦公室自2016年5月20日迄今，皆不曾向法務部請調過檢察官人力辦理相關食安黑心查緝作業。相比過往法務部高等檢察署曾派駐檢察官至行政院食品安全辦公室負責協調偵辦，並直接在食安管理業務、應變溝通及稽查取締發揮良好守護國人成果，已凸顯目前行政院食品安全辦公室應積極借鏡之需。爰此，特提案要求行政院食安辦公室限期完成請調檢察官進駐辦公之評估作業，並於一個月內向本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：廖偉翔　　陳菁徽　　蘇清泉　　王育敏　　涂權吉　　","四、","主旨：","有鑑於按最新行政院食安辦公室官網所揭露資訊，目前僅有專職人力4員，並需肩負處理行政協調溝通、法規制度管理、風險預警應變、計畫資訊整合等跨部會業務。倘若加上兼任主任的員額及借調的3名人員，總計人力也才8員，相比最初2014年行政院食安辦公室甫成立配置20名專職人員相差甚遠（包括行政院編制內人員、各食品安全業務有關機關含經濟部、衛生福利部、法務部、農委會及財團法人借調人員、具專業約騁人員等），人事作業上實凸顯輕視食安之施政心態。爰此，特提案要求行政院食安辦公室限期完成人事員額配置檢討作業，並於一個月內向本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：廖偉翔　　陳菁徽　　蘇清泉　　王育敏　　涂權吉　　","五、","主旨：","按衛福部官方邊境檢驗不符合食品資訊查詢系統所揭露，自111年1月至113年1月有關「辣椒食品」受驗出含有蘇丹紅的重量，共計發布達10萬8,178公斤；然而，在本日「食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅事件處理之檢討專題報告（書面報告）」中，衛福部僅就111年至112年邊境驗出9批共5萬5,275公斤含蘇丹紅的「辣椒粉」給予國人交代。","是以，考量官方所掌握的5萬5,275公斤含蘇丹紅辣椒粉，尚與整體10萬8,178公斤含蘇丹紅的辣椒食品間，有整整5萬2,903公斤違法黑數迄今流向不明，在欠缺清楚的說明交代之下，將嚴重影響我國食品安全，並侵損國人生命健康，爰要求限期於一周內向本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告。","說明：","食藥署違規發布紀錄(一)111年1月辣椒細片2萬4,000公斤(二)112年3月片裝紅辣椒200公斤(三)112年4月辣椒粉1萬5,000公斤(四)112年4月辣椒片1萬公斤(五)112年4月辣椒粉1萬1,000公斤(六)112年5月乾辣椒粉4,150公斤(七)112年5月乾辣椒粉1,000公斤(八)112年9月乾辣椒粉細3,600公斤(九)112年11月番椒紅椒粉2,875公斤(十)112年12月熱烘乾辣椒粉7,450公斤(十一)113年1月辣椒粉1萬5,207公斤(十二)辣椒粉1萬3,696公斤；以上驗出含蘇丹紅辣椒食品共計10萬8,178公斤。","提案人：廖偉翔　　陳菁徽　　涂權吉　　蘇清泉　　王育敏　　","六、","鑑於中國辣椒粉蘇丹紅案，雖然衛生福利部已禁止中國21家辣椒粉製造商／出口商的辣椒粉輸台，已影響國內食品產業發展，且引發民眾對食的安心，爰要求日後只要輸台產品檢出具食品安全疑慮且是我國環境部已公告之毒性或關注化學物質，一律立即禁止輸台。","陳　瑩　　林月琴　　劉建國　　黃秀芳　　王正旭　　","七、","有鑒於台中市衛生局1月15日前往國防部福利事業管理處所屬台中福利站，抽驗國產台糖安心豚梅花肉片（冷凍），檢驗結果發現含有不得檢出的瘦肉精西布特羅（Cimbuterol），檢出數值為0.002ppm。由於農業部已於109年9月7日依據《動物用藥品管理法》第五條第一項第一款之規定公告，乙型受體素（β-agonist）為禁止國內製造、調劑、輸入、輸出、販售、陳列之藥品。加上，食藥署已說此次台糖驗出西布特羅，不是實驗室污染。因此，國外進口豬肉是否含有西布特羅？受到外界質疑，台灣大學獸醫專業學院名譽教授賴秀穗曾表示，西布特羅毒性高出萊克多巴胺近千倍，若誤食過量恐導致心臟出問題，還會影響神經系統、呼吸系統，國際均禁止使用在食用動物上，包括牛、豬、雞、火雞等都不可以。引發人心惶惶。","爰提案要求衛福部應報行政院食品安全辦公室，在未查出台糖西布特羅瘦肉精究竟如何出現的原因，完成跨部會調查前，以及立法院同意前，政府不開放含有瘦肉精豬肉進口。","提案人：蘇清泉　　","連署人：涂權吉　　陳菁徽　　王育敏　　","八、","食藥署提醒，人體服用過量的瘦肉精，可能會產生心跳加速、血管擴張、肌肉顫抖、焦慮及代謝異常等中毒症狀。台北市立聯合醫院陽明院區胸腔科內科醫師蘇一峰補充，除了引發心悸、心血管疾病、噁心、頭暈、手顫抖、血壓上升等症狀之外，瘦肉精也是體育禁藥（興奮劑），運動員若是誤食含有瘦肉精的肉品，可能會導致尿檢呈陽性反應，因此運動員、老人、孕婦、幼兒，以及心血管疾病患者，在食用上務必特別留意。有鑒於台中市衛生局1月15日前往國防部福利事業管理處所屬台中福利站，抽驗國產台糖安心豚梅花肉片（冷凍），檢驗結果發現含有不得檢出的瘦肉精西布特羅（Cimbuterol），檢出數值為0.002ppm。引起社會關注。","爰提案要求衛福部應全面檢測市售國內外肉品，是否除了萊克多巴胺以外，尚含其它類型之乙型瘦體素（瘦肉精）。","提案人：蘇清泉","連署人：涂權吉　　陳菁徽　　王育敏　　"],["主席：現在處理這8項臨時提案。","針對第1案，請問行政單位與委員有沒有意見？"],["吳署長秀梅：委員好，我們是有一些文字要修正。"],["主席：請說。"],["吳署長秀梅：第一段的部分，「2%」之後是不是可以刪掉？因為我們現在要進行的食品追溯追蹤系統有法律上的規定，要是這裡這樣寫，看起來好像是很多業者都要做，其實不是。"],["主席：好。還有呢？就這個？"],["吳署長秀梅：再來是第2段。第2段第2行「資訊系統」後面，我們要加「食品資訊專櫃」。"],["主席：好。"],["吳署長秀梅：在第3行後面「業者並未及時更新」、再後面是逗點，之後的「難以發揮」等要劃掉，劃掉的是「難以發揮食品追溯追蹤之效果」，也就是這段劃掉，後面改為「無法及時提供產品資訊予消費者」。「更新」之後的文字我念一下：「業者並未及時更新，無法及時提供產品資訊予消費者」。"],["主席：「予消費者」是不是？"],["吳署長秀梅：對，「予消費者」。"],["主席：給消費者？"],["吳署長秀梅：對。"],["主席：好。還有呢？"],["吳署長秀梅：到第3段這裡，第3段是第2行，在「追溯追蹤管理資訊系統」之後，就加上「食品資訊專櫃」，接「之互相勾稽」。「就」的部分，將「並就」改成「並輔導」，改為「並輔導食品業者提高產品資訊揭露之意願，並擬定輔導計畫」。"],["主席：「之意願」啊？你的意思就是用尊重的方式嗎？剛才林淑芬委員也問到這個啊！"],["吳署長秀梅：這是要業者自己上去登錄的。"],["主席：所以現在沒有任何強制性就是了？"],["吳署長秀梅：對。"],["主席：就看業者要登錄或不登錄？"],["吳署長秀梅：對，這個專櫃是這樣。但是我們的追溯追蹤系統就屬於強制的，這裡的專櫃則屬於業者自己上去登錄的。"],["主席：你是說專櫃這邊只能輔導，不能強制？"],["吳署長秀梅：對，我們會多鼓勵他們。"],["主席：目前、現行做法是這樣，是不是？"],["吳署長秀梅：是。"],["主席：好，那就修正通過。","因為蘇委員路途比較遙遠，第7、8案先處理。"],["吳署長秀梅：針對第7案，我們有修改一些文字。第6行最後「不是實驗室污染」改為「為個案事件」。另外是後面從「因此」開始到最後，針對西布特羅的毒性，臺大賴秀穗教授已經澄清過了，當時他因為人在外面，沒有聽得很清楚，以為是另外一項乙型受體素，所以他後來澄清，對於西布特羅的毒性，其實目前大家都還沒有很清楚的研究，比較能證實的大概只有過敏的相關作用。所以是不是把這裡的污染改為個案事件，也就是把本來的「實驗室污染」改為「為個案事件」，再後面這一段就統統刪掉？"],["主席：所以，其實食藥署也認為這是個案事件，不是定調實驗室污染？你們沒有這樣講，對不對？你們沒有任何證據證明是實驗室污染嘛！對不對？"],["吳署長秀梅：就是很多因素都沒有辦法排除，但大家也找不到原因。"],["主席：對啊！找不到原因就要說找不到原因，我覺得很大膽地說是實驗室污染是不對的，因為需要證據啊！對不對？你們要證據充分才能講嘛！"],["吳署長秀梅：對，所以大家都努力找原因。"],["主席：所以你們也認為不要這樣寫？好啊！"],["吳署長秀梅：是。"],["主席：「為個案事件」？好。"],["吳署長秀梅：後面這一段就劃掉、不要有，因為賴教授已經澄清過了，謝謝。","第2段是「爰提案要求衛福部」之後接「、農業部及行政院食品安全辦公室」，逗點之後是「應積極調查台糖西布特羅瘦肉精究竟如何出現的原因」。再來是句點─對不起，是逗點，後面接「並儘速對外說明」，其他就劃掉。"],["主席：蘇委員，可以嗎？"],["蘇委員清泉：可以。"],["主席：好，蘇委員同意，那就按剛剛的文字修正通過。","處理第8案。"],["吳署長秀梅：第8案的第2段「爰提案要求衛福部應」後面劃掉，我們剛才跟委員提過文字修正，是「爰提案要求衛福部應持續強化抽驗市售國內外豬肉產品檢驗乙型受體素（含西布特羅）」。"],["蘇委員清泉：你們是不是有一個panel，針對21項都有檢查？"],["吳署長秀梅：對，現在的法定方法就是檢查21項乙型受體素。"],["主席：可以喔，蘇委員？好，那就按剛才食藥署所提修正文字通過。","處理第2案。"],["吳署長秀梅：第2案第2段第1行這裡可以，第2行在「更為快速，後續查緝更為困難」之後就改為句點。後面的文字我們希望可以改，改的是「請食藥署依食安法對於輸入之不合格產品情況較嚴重者，亦就該地區之其他製造商輸入相同產品，採取加速提升邊境查驗強度」。"],["主席：後面呢？都沒有了？"],["吳署長秀梅：對，就是句點。"],["主席：那後面那一段呢？就是你們的預警機制呢？「提高問題食品下架速度」呢？針對這次蘇丹紅問題，其實剛剛委員都講你們的速度其實還滿緩慢的。在去年第1例開始出現的時候，當時的示警看起來並沒有讓所有後市場或地方政府全面警醒可能要非常、加強重點查緝啊！所以這項提案還有後段這個目的，那部分都保留好了，好不好？後段文字還是保留。"],["吳署長秀梅：好。"],["主席：那就按照剛剛的修正通過。","處理第3案。"],["許主任輔：報告召委，針對第3案，行政單位沒意見。"],["主席：沒意見？好，通過。","處理第4案。"],["許主任輔：針對第4案，我們剛剛先跟廖委員討論過，關於食安辦的人力，建議第2行刪除「專職人力」4個字，也就是改為「目前僅有4員」，「並……」都沒改。第4行的「3名人員，」後加上「共計8人」。下一句「總計人力也才8員」到「相比」劃掉。下一句「最初2014年行政院食安辦公室甫成立」這幾個字還在，但是「配置20名專職人員」這邊要修正，因為我們其實從當時的院內專職4人到現在都一樣、沒變，當時也沒有20員，是從各部會調進來，所以這樣寫不對，我們剛才跟委員說明過，所以這邊的「甫成立」之後改成「由相關部會及院內人員支援不同」，再來是「爰此，特提案要求行政院食安辦公室限期完成人事員額」，中間那邊都劃掉，一直到「爰此」。「員額配置」後本來是「檢討作業」，建議「檢討」改成「評估」，再接「作業」。然後，「並於」之後本來寫「一個月內向本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會」，這裡的「一個月」改成「三個月」。"],["主席：廖委員，剛才有就修正跟你討論過，你同意嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：可以。"],["主席：可以喔？好，那就按剛剛的文字修正通過。","處理第5案。"],["吳署長秀梅：針對第5案，我們剛才也跟廖委員溝通過。在第2段的部分，有一些數據其實目前不是很清楚，所以那些數據劃掉，我念一下：「是以，考量官方所掌握」─後面的數據就劃掉，接「含蘇丹紅辣椒粉流向不明，將嚴重影響我國食品安全」，中間的文字劃掉。「並侵損……」等文字劃掉，接「爰要求限期於一周內向本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告」。"],["主席：可以喔？好，這一案修正通過。","處理第6案。"],["吳署長秀梅：第6案照案辦理。"],["主席：好，通過。","處理完畢。","主席宣告：中午不休息，持續進行詢答。便當已經發到桌上，大家可以自行用便當。","請陳委員雪生發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":296,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-2","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","林月琴","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","楊曜","林淑芬","陳雪生","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","陳瑩","王鴻薇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","林德福"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院食品安全辦公室、衛生福利部部長、食品藥物管理署就「食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅\n事件處理之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130601_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.334093750000001,"end":7.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.14346875,"end":11.168468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.404093750000001,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.20721875000001,"end":140.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.44346875000002,"end":141.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.46034375000002,"end":149.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.08846875,"end":148.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.91909375,"end":154.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.75346875,"end":155.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.41159375,"end":163.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.02659375000002,"end":168.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.92846875,"end":179.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.68221875,"end":187.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.15471875,"end":181.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.41096875000002,"end":187.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.59659375,"end":190.75221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.81534375,"end":194.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.85284375,"end":194.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.86971875,"end":194.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.95409375,"end":200.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.23596875,"end":206.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.39096875,"end":209.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.77909375000002,"end":209.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.70284375,"end":209.75346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.75346875000002,"end":213.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.77034375000002,"end":211.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.09034375000002,"end":216.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.63846875000002,"end":216.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.85784375,"end":216.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.95909375000002,"end":216.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.97596875000002,"end":217.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.02659375000002,"end":219.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.69284375,"end":219.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.56596875000002,"end":229.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.34096875,"end":240.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.6515937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署長你好整個你的所管理的業務裡面最核心的食品跟藥品那我們都知道整個國家的管理制度你們管理制度不管是食品的安全還是藥品的安全都建立在最核心的前提當然就是業者自律這個前提"},{"start":34.739,"end":57.813,"text":"那業者自律呢?食品安全也是業者自律那顯然我們政府經過多年食安事件以後要求要追溯追蹤系統然後呢?雖然是這樣子但是根據監察院的報告監察院的2020年的報告指出啊這個按照食品衛生管理法的規定所申請登錄的業者有47萬5736家次"},{"start":60.675,"end":74.204,"text":"但是呢你們要求強力要求要建立這個追溯追蹤系統要參加食品雲的加數只有一萬家比例是七萬跟一萬比例是兩趴兩趴"},{"start":75.985,"end":80.688,"text":"在這種狀況裏面事實上我們會講說你今天的報告講得很好聽你今天的書面報告說食藥署的風險預警預判功能是有預判的所以你們要強化風險預警分析為導入數據分析輔助風險偵測然後針對高圍規高關注的產品高風險進行預判"},{"start":100.538,"end":106.342,"text":"然後呢你們今天還講到說這個要強化風險預警預判功能不但講預警預判連登錄都沒有然後強制要登錄追溯追蹤的只有2%的業者所以在這裡喔我們消費者一路走來始終是發生食安事件以後抱歉含致癌物質的藥品我已經吞了一大堆了含致癌物質的添加物我已經吃下去一大堆了"},{"start":128.496,"end":148.074,"text":"那今天我就問你最核心的一件事情請問辣椒粉輸入有沒有在食品追溯追蹤系統的登錄體系裡面有沒有強制規定要登錄報告委員那個因為這個業者他如果是有不是這個業者我講辣椒粉這個品項因為這次出示的辣椒粉請問他是依據你們哪一個規定去參加這個登錄"},{"start":156.448,"end":168.303,"text":"就是我們規定有他的那個資本額是3000萬以上然後又有工廠登記我怎樣請問他們有沒有嗎現在出事的有沒有的有參加食品有沒有登錄"},{"start":169.98,"end":186.434,"text":"有追溯系統嗎?有上游的流向從哪裡進來?有下游的流向哪裡?跑到哪裡嗎?保興公司他必須要執行他有沒有執行?我再問你他根據什麼規定要執行?你旁邊記證組長,你旁邊,問你書店這核心業務,你書店還要你大旁邊幫他搞"},{"start":191.806,"end":210.842,"text":"有那個保興公司他有執行你不要在這裡騙委員難怪大家說國會要有聽證制度你是一共應建立食品追蹤追溯系統的食品業者有幾類有幾項我們這邊有25類25類他們是第幾類你說給我聽聽看他是屬於輸入業者不是啦第幾個序號第幾類"},{"start":221.618,"end":229.25,"text":"我恐怕你們是他是沒有登錄沒有被要求要強硬的要建立食品追蹤追溯系統的吧"},{"start":230.65,"end":258.831,"text":"檢察院講了47萬家你們強硬要求規定都是3000萬規模以上的居多當然也有小型的比如高風險的也要但是辣椒粉它根本都不在25類裡面我想不懂你怎麼預判風景你哪裡可以溯源你當然沒有辦法溯源也不知道流向啊你現在查到的都是海關比對資料勾集出來的吧"},{"start":260.143,"end":285.937,"text":"你就回答我 你們在這裡都說吧委員他這裡 第23類這個農產品他是屬於這個農產植物菇類還有藻類製品他是屬於這個輸入業者這一類好 那我現在就再問你23類嘛 植物製品菇類藻類他是菇類還是藻類製品他是農產植物"},{"start":288.066,"end":293.537,"text":"好 那現在我再問你那為什麼你們要這樣子自己擠牙膏慢慢擠 擠這麼久"},{"start":295.339,"end":302.024,"text":"就是從1月8號檢舉人檢舉檢舉人是寄生SGS有檢出這個韓蘇丹紅然後呢雲林縣政府去查場然後1月22他們去後市場再去買產品然後我們送到衛福部送到衛福部大家今天包括劉建國委員講這個從不要講1月8號啦"},{"start":321.48,"end":346.208,"text":"至少確認的是1月30號然後你們1月30號一直拖拖到2月20號才暫停了21家近年曾經進口不合格輸入不合格中國辣椒粉的業者才3個月然後呢大家才發現說你今天的報告有講說欸去年去年的年中你們5月22"},{"start":348.072,"end":374.551,"text":"我因為我辦公室跟你們要了資料啦要了資料你們FDA提供的資料齁這五年裡面中國辣椒粉抽驗的比例不合格的批數啦齁去年齁是你們提供的資料是抽驗了27%的比例不合格的批數是22批那不合格的比例是多高其中是屬於蘇丹紅的有7批"},{"start":376.038,"end":398.631,"text":"我現在問你說不合格去年的中國來的是330批我看一下330批我現在問你你光是給我們的22批不合格這是含蘇丹紅還是所有含農藥過蘇丹紅有7批農藥有16批那我現在要跟你講這件事情是食安辦的資料跟你們根本就對不起來"},{"start":399.471,"end":426.411,"text":"光是5月22不合格3批8月15去年不合格6批9月13不合格7批12月11不合格13批這去年半年就超過29批加起來是超過29批因為這是累計的它是累計然後有的是含有農藥所以如果我現在講全部啊不合格批次你給我們的數字是22批"},{"start":427.893,"end":428.153,"text":"林淑芬議員"},{"start":444.315,"end":465.764,"text":"就發現之前就發現有很多的不合格所以才把抽驗的比例提高到20%在5月之前你們就發現很多不合格所以在5月你們再提高到20%驗出來以後又非常的不合格所以你們去年的8月又把"},{"start":467.225,"end":488.463,"text":"這個抽菸的比例提高到30%然後又發現抽菸的還是很多不合格然後再到9月再把提高抽菸的比例提高到50%然後又發現很多不合格才會變成12月的時候說那我們乾脆對中國來的邊境不合格率這麼多的話我們提高抽菸比例到100%"},{"start":490.945,"end":506.618,"text":"如果根據這個相關的法規這個查驗辦法食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法來講事實上就是非常非常多每次抽驗都不合格再抽驗又不合格所以才會變成百分之百的抽驗那我現在問你說你抽驗之後你邊境當然是抽驗這麼多不合格不合格以後抽驗到了那你有沒有進行後市場繼續抽驗"},{"start":516.358,"end":527.887,"text":"這個是源頭邊境嘛你抽菸這麼高這麼多批都不合格你發現這個中國來的辣椒粉穿了蘇丹紅的或是其他農藥超標這麼嚴重那你有沒有做後市場的繼續把關"},{"start":534.011,"end":552.81,"text":"有,我們如果有在邊境有查到不合格的就會把相關的資訊回饋到後市場然後地方政府他就去查相關的這些他到底查了多少次,查了哪些記錄對,我們後來回饋回饋到地方政府這邊的在一百"},{"start":554.111,"end":561.097,"text":"今年度的1月到2月20號不要再講我聽不下去因為從去年年初就一直驗不及格驗不及格你們到今年去年一整年你們都沒有後市場抽驗而今年你說1到2月你們交給地方政府不要再講今年的1月8號檢舉人就跟地方政府檢舉了"},{"start":578.452,"end":595.411,"text":"1月8號這個是檢舉人這個不是不是邊境查驗然後再去主動FDA或地方政府主動去透視講查驗產品來抽驗都不是這個案件整個是也不是你做原稅做追蹤系統查出來都不是這是檢舉人起的頭"},{"start":599.856,"end":611.966,"text":"所以要說你們都明明知道源頭把關的邊境這麼多不合格可是你們還是代呼職者不願意積極辦理然後仍然放任我要再講第二章的這個我跟你們要了這五年裡面邊境查驗違反規定的我就整理了一些啦你看這個名單啦今天出事的過去都出過事了啦"},{"start":634.278,"end":650.407,"text":"保新108年也有今天的金站就是海底撈的這個金站加廣我告訴大家不管他叫金站加廣釜山還是海順通通都是同一家人同一家族"},{"start":651.462,"end":660.855,"text":"登記在同一個公司吳克民他有兩家所以他們都知道邊境產業不及格沒關係我再用其他公司再進口"},{"start":662.222,"end":689.199,"text":"這一家有問題我再用別的再進口然後你看都同一批人你看六豐生物這個綠豐實業看起來好像不是但你到工商登記裡面他們都互為股東都有公私相通還有這個天松企業這個都是檢出蘇丹紅色素所以所以我再講一個我不想差出可是這也是實話我就發現這個韓廣韓廣"},{"start":692.762,"end":721.613,"text":"我看他的其他的公司登記我認為他進口的不是只有中國辣椒他檢出的這個含有蘇丹紅色素的還有農藥超標的他的進口來源是哪一國這去年而已啊他被檢出3批啊他是中國進口的嗎是不是因為他做的他本來是一家韓國小吃店後來他成立另外兩家公司叫首爾什麼公司還有韓什麼公司的"},{"start":722.611,"end":741.871,"text":"所以我今天要跟你們講 從去年 其實也不要去年 歷年來大家都知道辣椒和辣椒粉本來就是高風險的而你們也查出來 邊境源頭都查出來了可是你們從來不做後市場把關 沒有 而且後市場把關本來就很難了我必須要講為什麼很難 後市場把關為什麼難 因為原料"},{"start":747.43,"end":767.959,"text":"原料它添加物然後加工以後變成產品它會一直不斷的稀釋所以在源頭去把關查出不合格檢出違規違法這是比較容易的到後市場你要檢出不合格其實是比較困難的"},{"start":769.019,"end":796.378,"text":"可是當你後市場而這一次的事件是1月22號雲林縣政府他去茶場發現原料有問題他還去後市場買買來交給我們食藥署驗仍然這個產品後市場抽驗的產品仍然有蘇丹紅還驗得出來你就知道這個含量多麼的高這個多麼嚴重所以我們都知道說啊"},{"start":798.304,"end":812.664,"text":"追溯追蹤你們當然講我們會增加預警預判你們連發現了都不繼續做那我今天在跟你講說你現在禁止了21家的中國食品輸出商嘛對不對"},{"start":814.249,"end":841.709,"text":"是不是?對那我問你,廣家跟金站他們輸入中國大陸哪一家公司?Kevin,Kevin食品Kevin食品,OK我們辦公室去使用中國的國家企業信用信息系統沒有這一家公司然後你去Google查詢你知道是查到什麼公司嗎?"},{"start":843.035,"end":867.194,"text":"Kevin Shippinging可以查得到他是一家什麼公司嗎我就問你人家給你登錄了然後也出事了社會案件都爆發的這麼嚴重了他說你也禁止了21家中國廠商進來我禁止了Kevin Shippinging進來了可是我現在問你有沒有這一家公司中國有沒有這一家公司啊"},{"start":868.543,"end":896.142,"text":"為什麼一個食品出口商的名字會叫SHIPPINGSHIP我們在GOOGLE查到他是一家香港的船務公司啊中文的名字叫家運船務有限公司你們進口了一家不曉得在做什麼也不知道有沒有真的有這一家公司的這個公司你進了一個虛無縹緲的公司他還有另外一個名稱在進來"},{"start":897.665,"end":916.914,"text":"所以我們在想說這樣子怎麼對呢?你們總是讓我們吃下去以後告訴我說這有問題吃下去很多以後告訴我沒意囖然後你的風險預警系統根本就是失靈然後呢你看這些廠商每年不斷的反覆在違規今年是這一家明年是那一家結果都是同一家族"},{"start":917.774,"end":931.564,"text":"然後他們還是不但你上有政策他更而他下有對策更何況你們上面根本沒有在查查到了就這樣子再換一個公司不同的名稱台灣進口商但是負責任同一家或是同一個家族"},{"start":932.594,"end":948.42,"text":"然後在他們會換名字啊一年裡面我我天我這個海順不會一直用海順啊我下一批用釜山再用金山再用加廣輪流使用不同名稱然後分散被查驗的機率和風險所以今天在這裡說你現在沒有辦法一次告訴我們他明明就這麼高風險而且屢屢被查出被查出到你還有100%查驗了結果你後市場放任不管哈"},{"start":963.8,"end":967.902,"text":"我們再來對於這種不該存在於食品當中的這些物質那我們就會從百分之百的逐批那我們也會評估之後然後就立刻的停止這些產品的你已經當了這個位置當幾年了啦你未來未來我們有食品雲幾年了你還講說未來以後不會"},{"start":994.588,"end":1015.518,"text":"那你剛才回答上一個委員講到說如果查到了就下架啊沒查到呢我們繼續吞下肚嗎所以管理不是這樣子雖然我們知道你們力有未待食品藥品你都是靠業者自律可是當業者不自律這麼久了然後我們一直吞下肚吞那麼久了我們只能自求多福嗎"},{"start":1017.219,"end":1037.564,"text":"在這種狀況裡面,你們講預警預判,你們哪一次成功預警預判?連數據都沒有,連流向都沒有,連這一種那麼公開的紙上公司這麼多輪流進口的,同一個家族的,然後每年都違規的,後市場都放任不管,還要靠檢舉案,整個事件是檢舉案耶!"},{"start":1039.504,"end":1049.172,"text":"這個跟10年前10年前沒有食品運事件沒有食品運制度的食安事件還是回到原點沒有更進步所以我們今天在這裡監察院講的食品業者47萬家強制登錄的2%那沒有登錄就已經慘了有登錄的你也沒辦法發生獄派沒辦法有獄警的機制通通都沒有是靠檢舉的"},{"start":1068.424,"end":1085.049,"text":"啊我剛剛講說你們現在把他鎖定在只有某些特定的廠商或是國家其他沒有嗎其他沒有嗎其他我剛剛就給你舉一個例子了高度的可疑啊也是累犯啊這些都是累犯所以今天在這裡齁您我我是覺得啦部長我看起來這麼多年我們的書店不適任啦不適任啦也沒有能力"},{"start":1097.847,"end":1112.539,"text":"也不積極,也不用心,查到啊,就一樣不做市長,查到叫他退官,查到叫他退官,驗證毫無風險,查獲不合格,退官,他連成本負擔都沒有,因為他沒有進來,沒有進來就是一種負擔,連風險,我驗證我也敢,因為如果叫你去年會很危險,查到無法叫他退官而已,不用了解啊,"},{"start":1126.035,"end":1128.344,"text":"好 那我們謝謝林淑芬委員"}]}},{"id":"149250","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149250","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd7e9e18978acf0f362dd7be9832461c05f8ba9b0039caa7a68bcbbb6a65c2654e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"11:46:04 - 11:56:33","影片長度":"00:10:29","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":629,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:56:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:46:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":688,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（11時46分）秘書長你好。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["謝委員龍介：你提到刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條，就是說禁止辯護人在場陳述意見跟筆記權是採取事後救濟的機制，辯護人這些權利一旦被限制、禁止以後，影響到被告的律師倚賴權，事後的救濟他會有什麼樣的實益？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我請刑事廳就這一部分，我們都已經請行政院會銜過……"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，因為……"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們有整個配套。"],["李廳長釱任：跟委員報告一下，有關於第二百四十五條之一這個部分，就是限制律師辯護權的部分，我們有完整的配套，包括在時間……在檢察官或是司法警察對限制律師辯護或是禁止他辯護的時候，我們要求他記明在筆錄裡面，做事後的救濟，而事後救濟如果是被撤銷的話，這部分可能影響到他證據能力的問題。"],["謝委員龍介：就是說事後救濟成功以後，筆錄的證據能力有沒有撤銷？"],["李廳長釱任：證據能力就由法院來判斷，假如認為說他違反的話，那可能是因為當時……"],["謝委員龍介：如果你現在這樣修法，那沒有實質……"],["李廳長釱任：這真的會影響他的證據能力，會影響他的證據能力的判斷。"],["謝委員龍介：會影響？"],["李廳長釱任：對，會影響。"],["謝委員龍介：以法院的實務，就是證據能力會喪失。"],["李廳長釱任：受影響。"],["謝委員龍介：是不是這樣？"],["李廳長釱任：對。"],["謝委員龍介：那你們修法有沒有考慮採取檢察官保留或是法官保留的立法模式？"],["李廳長釱任：我們在諮詢會的時候曾經有考慮過這樣的模式，但是在法務部的立場，他們認為在偵查中貴在機密性跟迅速性，如果說事先透過所謂的檢察官保留或法官保留的方式，對他們偵查詢問的方式可能在進行上不是那麼順利，所以才會採取事後救濟的方式來處理，以上。"],["謝委員龍介：所以基本上就是採取讓他對於辯護人的倚賴這條被告權益的保障。","有一個問題比較曖昧，就是增設檢察官助理，我調資料看，這個倡議去年立法院就有了，然後朝野的立法委員都很支持，可是司法院好像還沒有提出草案。"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員報告，在這個部分，我們有提出在第4案，也有把法院組織法要增設檢察官助理也都列入我們立法計畫。"],["謝委員龍介：你這就是要揹小孩嘛！你好像擱置這個，然後……因為朝野支持的是檢察官助理的增額，你們現在還順帶提出來高等法院也要增設司法事務官嘛！是不是這樣？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是評估是認為，因為在業務單位……"],["謝委員龍介：那你增加的好像……你這就是擺明……我覺得你在綁架啊！你在綁票他！"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為一般我們修法會徵詢各個業務廳。"],["謝委員龍介：不然為什麼那個案件大家都支持，你卻一直都送不出來？在等你們，就是在等你們啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為他也是最近才拜會我們，2月6號才來拜會我們司法院。機關之間本來就有一套流程……"],["謝委員龍介：那你現在法院組織法的修正草案到哪裡了？進度到哪裡了？"],["吳秘書長三龍：有關要修的條文，我們內部都在整理、會辦當中。"],["謝委員龍介：這個是司法院還要到行政院會銜的，對不對？"],["吳秘書長三龍：對。"],["謝委員龍介：那你現在還沒到司法院，還沒出來啊？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會儘快。"],["謝委員龍介：那我們這會期就審不到了。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會儘快。"],["謝委員龍介：對不對？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為……"],["謝委員龍介：這個會期就不可能在司法委員會……"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為畢竟修法有一個格式、有一套流程……"],["謝委員龍介：本席的看法，這好像是你們自己耽誤到的，你是為了要增加高等法院這些人的設置。"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是說在2月6號他才正式來拜會我們。"],["謝委員龍介：好。"],["吳秘書長三龍：公文都還沒有過來。"],["謝委員龍介：秘書長，對於法務部草擬棄保潛逃罪，還有司法關說罪，你有什麼看法？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這些我們都會……"],["謝委員龍介：我看你剛才都沒回應他們啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們都會支持啦！其實我們都會支持啦！"],["謝委員龍介：是不是因為你們反對，所以這個法案就一直沒有辦法送到立法院來嘛！基本上你們就是抗拒啊！尤其是司法關說罪。"],["吳秘書長三龍：其實我們都尊重，因為這個法是法務部主責，我們會尊重。"],["謝委員龍介：因為棄保潛逃跟司法關說，譬如說朱國榮棄保潛逃，剩那麼多錢，為什麼國人對司法沒有信心？你對朱國榮這件事有什麼看法？雖然是個案，他已經走了、跑了、棄保潛逃，社會影響這麼大，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那個結果就是社會一定會有落差。"],["謝委員龍介：結果就是跑了，法律明明就賦予法官可以羈押。你看臺南市那個經發局長，他一審判8年，二審減到6年半，法官為什麼不准予他交保？桃園那個局長一審判13年就交保了哦！那為什麼臺南不准允他交保？就法官他看到很多事證，因為他可以限制他嘛！所以才會有臺南市的光電現在還可以繼續偵辦啊！如果交保，他就跑出去了，對不對？光電牽扯那麼多，朱國榮這件也是啊！明明就能夠將他羈押，那你這樣就是讓我們的國民對於法律的情感受到傷害。所以，這些權貴、有錢人只要判刑一個就跑掉一個，你身為司法人，你不會覺得很難過嗎？所以棄保潛逃罪跟司法關說罪本席是希望你們能夠支持啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個我們會支持。"],["謝委員龍介：你會支持？"],["吳秘書長三龍：會支持。"],["謝委員龍介：那有沒有什麼具體的作為？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會跟法務部那邊一起，當然這個主責是法務部，但是我們會支持，會後我們廳也會把這些意見轉達法務部。"],["謝委員龍介：好。刑法第三百三十九條之四加重詐欺罪是1年以上、7年以下，那你知道現在電信詐騙很多的案件量刑都是在6個月以下，被判2年以上的微乎其微。法院的量刑偏輕，所以造成這些詐欺犯盛行。更誇張的就是一罪一罰，一罪一罰理論上是罪責要更重，可是定刑、執行刑的結果卻是犯越多，他優惠越多啊！秘書長，你看所有實例都這樣啊！這樣一罪一罰還有什麼精神？所以司法院針對量刑，你講一下你怎麼具體來改善。"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個我們有……"],["謝委員龍介：不然社會上詐騙的越來越多啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們有編這些量刑參考加重的這些手冊。"],["謝委員龍介：那為什麼判出來都不是這樣啊？"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以我們法官也要傾聽各界、外界的聲音，我確實……"],["謝委員龍介：你們內部都沒有檢討過？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然我們刑事廳也都隨時要去留意這些……"],["謝委員龍介：我給你提的這個數據是事實嘛！"],["吳秘書長三龍：現在……"],["謝委員龍介：那你看國人怎麼看待司法嘛！"],["吳秘書長三龍：現在就是說這種……"],["謝委員龍介：詐騙這麼普遍，你身邊一定有人被騙，我也有一個退休的法官朋友被騙了，來向我陳述，我也愛莫能助啊！詐騙是有夠多的！坦白講，他們不怕嘛！那些騙子不怕啊！關幾個月就出來了。不是說一定要……因為你看嘛，它最後包括判2年的也沒幾件，幾乎都是2年以下，騙再多錢都一樣！"],["主席：謝謝龍介委員。","接下來我們請傅崐萁委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","翁曉玲","黃國昌","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","柯建銘","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鄭天財Sra 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業務廳啊那不然為什麼那個案件大家都支持還會一直刪不出來在擔任就是在擔任啊"},{"start":249.858,"end":258.874,"text":"因為之前他也是最近才拜會我們之前2月6號才來拜會我們司法院"},{"start":260.41,"end":283.336,"text":"那機關之間本來有一套流程那你現在法院組織法的修正草案到哪裡了進度高的我們都內部在有關條文都在要修的這些條文都在我都在整理會辦這個是司法院還要到行政院會選的嘛對不對那你現在還沒到司法院還沒出來"},{"start":285.011,"end":311.817,"text":"我們會盡快 會盡快 這個會期就不可能在司法委員會因為畢竟修法它有一個格式 修法它有一套流程我個人本身的看法 這改正是你們自己合意的 你是為了要增加"},{"start":313.049,"end":318.151,"text":"對於法務部草泥棄保潛逃罪還有司法關縮罪你有什麼看法?"},{"start":335.806,"end":355.94,"text":"我看你剛才都不敢贏啊是不是因為你們反對嘛所以這個法案就一直沒有辦法送到立法院來嘛基本上你們就是抗拒啊尤其是司法關說罪啊因為棄保潛逃跟司法關說譬如說朱國隆棄保潛逃嘛"},{"start":364.89,"end":370.334,"text":"為什麼國人對司法沒有信心?你對出國龍介你有什麼看法?雖然個案那已經走了嘛 跑了嘛 棄保潛逃嘛 那社會影響這麼大嘛 你覺得怎麼樣?"},{"start":382.338,"end":408.952,"text":"那個結果就是社會一定會有落差法律就是明明賦予法官可以羈押你看台南市那個金華局長他一審判8年二審檢到6年半法官為什麼不准以他交保桃園那個局長一審判13年就交保了那為什麼台南他不准以他交保"},{"start":410.236,"end":437.853,"text":"就法官他看到很多事證因為他可以限制他嘛所以才會有臺南市的光電現在還可以繼續偵辦啊如果交保他就照處理啊對不對而且光電牽扯那麼多那祖國龍這也是啊明明就可以給他支啊那你這樣就是讓我們的國民對於法律的情感就受到傷害"},{"start":439.867,"end":464.538,"text":"所以權貴這麼有錢人變判刑一個判一個招一個判一個招一個你做司法人你不會覺得很辛苦嗎所以為什麼棄保潛逃罪跟司法關稅罪本席是希望你們能夠支持啊我們會支持你會支持會支持這樣有什麼具體的作為"},{"start":469.229,"end":492.52,"text":"那這個我們會跟法務部那邊一起來就是這個當然這個是主責是法務部但是我們會支持我們會後也會我們聽會把這些意見轉給法務部來請法339條制是加重詐欺罪是一年以上七年以下"},{"start":494.229,"end":523.481,"text":"那你知道現在電信詐騙 很多的案件 量刑 都是在6個月以下那各位一哈 被判兩年以上的被判兩年以上 判刑兩年以上的微乎其微那法院的量刑偏輕 所以造成這些詐欺犯盛行更誇張的就是說一罪一罰一罪一罰理論上是罪責要更重"},{"start":524.517,"end":543.973,"text":"可是．定型執行型的結果呢．卻是換越多．他優惠越多啊．比如你看所有實例都這樣啊．這樣一做一法有什麼情形．所以司法院對這些．針對量刑啊．你講一下你怎麼具體來改善．那這個我們有．沒你想到炸片的越來越多啊．"},{"start":552.688,"end":555.55,"text":"那為什麼判出來都不是這樣啊?那你們內部都沒有檢討過?我給你提的這個數據是屬性嘛"},{"start":582.408,"end":596.172,"text":"現在...那你看國人怎麼看待司法嘛現在就是說這種...詐騙這麼普遍你身後邊一定有人說我某一個法官的朋友退休了叫我們陪他來給我陳述捏我也愛莫能助啊詐騙是有夠多的 因為坦白講他們不怕嘛那邊誰不怕啊 乖乖乖乖的出來啊"},{"start":611.567,"end":618.62,"text":"不是說一定要,因為你看嘛,他最後包括破2年沒幾件幾乎都是2年以下騙多少錢就這樣"}]}},{"id":"149249","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149249","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddda088e7b0e3558dd9a874ae98c1f56169f8ba9b0039caa7a68901a2d9dc58bc2c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"11:36:27 - 11:47:45","影片長度":"00:11:18","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":678,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:47:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:36:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（11時36分）主席好，我想請代理部長。"],["主席：好，我們再請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：陳代理部長好。這是我第一次在經濟委員會質詢，首先問一個有關於外展農務要點相關的問題。我看到農業部的資料顯示，目前臺灣農業常態缺工大概有1.2萬人，季節性臨時缺工有20.1萬人，我們要補這樣子勞動力不足的情況，就透過移工來做補充。目前整個開放名額在自聘的部分有9,000人，外展農務的部分有3,000人，核定出來的狀態在自聘的部分不到五千人，外展農務的部分是2,600人，實際的狀態又更低，所以整個看起來的情況，在農業這個部分，人力不足的情況其實非常明顯的，這應該沒有錯吧？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明。資料裡的1.2萬人跟20.1萬人，應該是人次的部分。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，是人次，理解。"],["陳代理部長駿季：人的部分大概是兩千多人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，是人次的問題，我也知道這是人次的問題。本席這邊想要問的情況是，因為我看到移民署最新的數字，大概是2月20號的統計數字，目前失聯移工有8萬5,947人，可能有相當大量都是在農業相關的部門裡。我們得到一些訊息的時候，可能會是這樣的情況，可是我們知道在整個外展農務要點裡面有設定，外展農務機構其實必須要是一些非……"],["陳代理部長駿季：必須要是農民團體。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，農民團體與漁民團體以及一些協會，就是一些非營利組織。問題是，我剛給你看的數字，事實上，我們整個外展農務開放出來的名額跟實際到的名額是有相當大的差距，有一個很大的可能是因為他們本來就不是專業在處理移工相關的機構，所以他們對於相關的引進跟管理可能沒有足夠的能力，本席想要特別問的其實是，農業部這邊有沒有可能開放就服機構來進行外展農務的相關業務？"],["陳代理部長駿季：基本上，農業部的立場，因為我們農業部本身整個網絡的關係，還是希望以農會跟一些比較大型的合作社場為主。一般的就業服務中心純粹只是仲介，它對於農業不了解的時候，後續可能對於調度……因為外展是調度服務。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。目前的狀態就是，農會跟漁會因為他們本身對這方面的專業不足夠，所以在處理這部分時其實也沒有辦法真正的滿足需求。我剛才提到將近八萬六千個失聯移工的狀態，相關單位他們的說法是，因為目前的失聯移工很多都在農業部門裡，他們也擔心處理這個部分的時候會影響到整個農業部門的發展，所以他們對這部分其實是相對保留的。本席這邊先提出這個問題，農業部是不是可以開放就服機構來進行外展農務的相關業務，請回去再做探討，再跟本席辦公室這邊來做個討論。","另外一個部分，因為現在的移工他們也有要滿足勞基法的問題，可是農業的性質有非常大的特殊性，農忙跟農閒的部分差距非常的大，所以這個部分是不是有可能突破勞基法的限制？這是第一個部分。第二個部分，這些外展農務移工有沒有可能在農閒的時候跨行業地支援其他產業？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明。第一個，在農忙的時候，我們可以透過專案報准的方式處理，這個應該可以，時間可以調整。第二個就是您剛才說的農閒的時候，外展農務移工是不是可以到其他的行業支援，這個勞動部是有限制的。最主要是因為包括其他行業，就是有限制的時候過來，因為……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。部長，所以本席覺得，因為這是目前很具體碰到的問題，我希望你做一個跨部會的溝通之後，再跟本辦做一個很詳細的溝通，或者是我們同時來做一個協調會，來看怎麼樣突破這個問題，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：接下來，本席要問一個狀態，之前本席在上一屆的時候曾經提過有關於學校衛生法的修法，當時教育部對於本席提到應該要在校園當中禁用乙型受體素相關涉及產品的時候，他們當時提出來的理由是說因為農業部這邊有三章一Q。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：他們用這個理由阻止了我們當時希望能夠修改學校衛生法。可是去年又發生了很多混豬的事件，而且也被確定是確實有這個狀態，所以本席想要問的情況是，對於這樣子三章一Q的部分，我們如何落實避免中間發生混豬的狀態？在消費者或者學校這邊，他們要如何確定他們用到的狀態是符合三章一Q安全的部分？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，我跟委員說明一下。我們農業部推動了三章一Q，包括農林漁畜的產品，最重要的就是能夠做回溯的機制。所以如果是符合三章一Q，就一定是確保由國產的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。代理部長，這個部分都沒有問題。可是我的問題其實是，回到我們那個網頁，這個部分是我們的溯源編號。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：裡面這個部分，它的溯源編號，這是我們自己去用的部分。我想問的一個情況是，如果肉品供應商在這裡面找到一個溯源編碼的時候，他自己製作，而非真實的狀態，我們如何查核？"],["陳代理部長駿季：整個溯源碼如果經過掃描以後，它如果是偽造的話，馬上後臺的資料就會帶不出來。第二個部分，我們跟學校有一個營養午餐的平臺，學校營養午餐的平臺裡本身營養師在開的或者是進到學校營養午餐的部分，所有的三章一Q，我們都會協助做對接，進行查核。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以你說如果是自己個人進行編號的時候，其實後臺資料會出不來嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，因為我們還有一些後續的部分，我想到時候再請您到本辦公室來做一個說明。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：另外，去年缺蛋非常的嚴重，今年還缺不缺蛋？"],["陳代理部長駿季：以今年來看，在去年因為蛋比較急迫需要從國外進口的時候，我們也同步針對國內的復養啟動了從雛雞、種雞、蛋中雞到蛋雞的整個復養，所以今年來看整個復養的情況還不錯。有些老母雞已經淘汰，變成新的一些蛋雞生產。"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有缺蛋？"],["陳代理部長駿季：每天大概有兩千四百一十四萬顆，所以目前國產蛋是充足的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那我們大概還有多少份國外蛋的供應合約目前還在有效期間裡？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們現在的供應合約都已經終止了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：都已經終止了？沒有還持續在有效合約期間當中的嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有。我們本來的合約是到5月底，當初的合約有三家是長約，長約的部分有的已經結束了，最後一個澳洲的部分，我們在合約的規範裡有說明是當我們農業部有需要的話才會啟動，而不是定期的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["陳代理部長駿季：大概是這個方式。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以合約還在嘛！對不對？只是我們現在沒有要求他們供應嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以基本上合約還在。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，澳洲的部分合約還在。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是中止的狀態而不是最終結束的狀態嘛！對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對！"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，針對這部分，本席也需要再進一步瞭解。最後一個，因為現在整個碳的問題其實大家都非常的重視，我看到2023年我們臺灣最新的溫室氣體排放清冊裡面，跟農業部這邊有關的糧食系統碳排放的部分，只有記錄了畜牧業與作物生產兩個部分，對於其他的部分都沒有記錄，是這樣子嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：畜牧的部分最主要是甲烷，它占了農業……"],["鄭委員正鈐：來，你沒有回答，我要問的狀態是漁業有沒有包含進來？"],["陳代理部長駿季：漁業現在目前好像沒有。"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有嘛！對不對？整個生產過程當中，加工、包裝、運輸都沒有包含進來。所以本席覺得農業部對於整個碳盤查是不夠的，只做一半，半套的狀態。本席希望農業部對於碳盤查的狀態能夠更完整，像英國就是從生產到餐桌整個供應鏈都算在碳盤查裡面，臺灣目前沒有，我希望之後你們到本辦公室進一步說明農業部如何進行碳盤查的事情，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我稍微簡單的說明，目前整個碳排放是根據國際IPC相關的規範進行，整個碳盤查也是從生產端到消費端的部分，所以會看到它本身整個……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們農業的供應端就沒有啊！中間的加工、包裝、運送都沒有包含在這裡面啊！還是我的溫室氣體資料不完整？"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為溫室氣體有兩個部分，一個部分是綠色標章，另一個是碳的足跡追蹤，從生產到加工、到運輸都會把它放進去，這個部分我們正在進行。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，你們之後再到本辦公室做進一步的說明，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["主席：部長，詳細資料再提供給委員，謝謝。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請陳超明委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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理解 這個部分都沒有問題可是我的問題其實是說你回到我們的網頁 這個部分是我們的溯源編號 裡面這個部分它的溯源編號這是我們自己去用的一個部分 那我想問的一個情況是說如果是供應商 肉品供應商他如果在這裡面他找到一個溯源編碼的時候 他自己去做 而非真實的一個狀態 我們如何去查核"},{"start":425.976,"end":448.615,"text":"我想整個的溯源碼你如果經過掃描以後它如果是偽造的話馬上後台的資料帶不出來第二個部分是我們跟學校有一個營養午餐的平台所以學校的這些營養午餐的平台本身的營養是在開的或者是進到學校的營養午餐的部分的所有的聖誕EQ我們都會協助做對接去做一個查核"},{"start":449.673,"end":451.295,"text":"昨年缺氮非常嚴重,今年還缺不缺氮?"},{"start":471.394,"end":494.266,"text":"以今年來看因為我們在去年因為蛋的比較急迫需要從國外進口的時候我們也同步針對國內的復養啟動了從雛雞、腫雞、蛋中雞到戰雞的整個復養所以今年來看整個復養的情況還不錯有新的這些老母雞已經淘汰變成新的一些蛋雞生產目前本身大概2414萬"},{"start":497.668,"end":499.85,"text":"我們現在的供應合約都已經終止了都已經終止了"},{"start":519.065,"end":536.937,"text":"沒有還持續在有效的合約當中的嗎?沒有我們本來的合約是到5月底後來我們都已經因為我們當初的合約有三家是長約的部分然後長約的部分有的已經結束了然後最後一個澳洲的部分我們現在目前因為我們在合約的規範裡面是說"},{"start":540.079,"end":553.47,"text":"當我們農業部有需要的話才會啟動而不是定期的大概是這個方式所以合約還在嘛對不對只是你們現在沒有去要求他這邊提供嘛對不對所以這就基本上合約還在"},{"start":555.131,"end":571.899,"text":"澳洲的部分合理還在是中間的中止的狀態而不是最終結束的狀態對不對那針對這部分本席也需要再進一步瞭解那麼最後一個部分我看到因為現在整個碳的問題其實非常的大家都非常的重視"},{"start":572.799,"end":598.914,"text":"那麼我看到就是2023我們就是臺灣的最新的溫室氣體排放清澈裡面跟農業部這邊有關的糧食系統的一個碳排放的一個部分只有記錄了畜牧業、作物生產兩個部分對於其他的部分都沒有記錄,是這樣子嗎?我想畜牧的部分最主要是甲烷的部分,它佔的農業...來,你沒有回答,我要問的狀態是漁業有沒有包含進來?"},{"start":600.522,"end":618.21,"text":"因為現在目前好像沒有嘛 對不對整個生產過程當中加工包裝運輸都沒有包含進來所以本席對於這個部分覺得農業部對於整個碳盤差是不夠的只做一半半套的一個狀態所以本席希望農業部對於碳盤差的狀態能夠更"},{"start":620.371,"end":627.113,"text":"稍微簡單的說明我們現在的碳盤查整個碳的這些排放的話還是根據國際的IPC的相關的規範在做那整個碳盤查也是從生產端到消費端的部分所以它本身會看到它的能"},{"start":649.518,"end":672.666,"text":"我們農業的供應端就沒有啊中間的加工包裝運送都沒有包含在這裡頭啊還是我們這個溫室氣體的這個資料不完整因為溫室氣體有兩部分一部分是綠色鎖條帳另外一個我們在碳的足跡追動的話從生產到加工到運輸都會把它放進去這個部分我們正在進行OK你們之後再到本辦公室做進一步的說明好不好"}]}},{"id":"149248","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149248","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd579483fb5ff76313faa0e83a28976539f8ba9b0039caa7a6a502e9028cb3ba395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"11:35:35 - 11:45:07","影片長度":"00:09:32","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":572,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:45:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:35:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":632,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（11時35分）謝謝主席，我們還是請主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員，您好。"],["許委員智傑：主委，我一直在關心的就是我們的最有利標，我們的效率好不好，也觀察了很多年，這點要肯定工程會的成果。我這邊列出了從108年到112年，我們持續關心，這個比例不管是決標件數還是決標金額的比例也都有逐漸的提高，這個部分也要向主委、工程會的同仁表示鼓勵和感謝。當然今年的數據比例還是提高，但金額為什麼會下降？決標件數為什麼會下降？這個我有去瞭解，以前是10萬以上就有統計，現在改成15萬，所以雖然決標件數減少，因為金額提高，不過總比例還是增加的，對這部分還是給予肯定。","另外，我為什麼一直要求讓政風、主計可以去參與，事實上我們可以看到最有利標最大的好處是量身訂做，讓我們穿最適合的衣服，它最大的壞處就是有些公務員不敢承擔，或有些公務員有一點不一樣、不好的想法，這是它的優點和缺點。對這方面，政風組及主計都夠參與，至少表示他們有在旁邊看，第一，你不必怕，第二，你也不能胡亂來，這部分因為他們的參與事實上也有提高的狀況，我們當然也要表示肯定。我看今年政風、主計參與的比例是降低的，以前都每年提高，今年是降低的，往好的方面想是大家都有按部就班、都就緒了，該承擔的承擔，該防弊的防弊，也越來越好了，所以比例可以慢慢的降低了，對這方面主委的看法是怎麼樣？"],["吳主任委員澤成：這方面很謝謝委員一再地提醒我們去做這件事，我個人非常認同，我覺得讓他們參加有安內和讓外面的人放心的作用非常重要。向委員報告，我對很多重大案件都主動要求，像台北案件填土方，非常重要的案件，我主動要求港務公司成立廉政平台，讓他們加入。"],["許委員智傑：就是說我們這個做法其實是正面的做法。"],["吳主任委員澤成：正面。"],["許委員智傑：我已經觀察、要求了很多年，也希望主委能夠一起重視。"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們來鼓勵。"],["許委員智傑：包括我們的同仁，就是說這個方向如何讓最有利標可以買到最適合的衣服，又是最好的，又是價格合理的，又不會讓人家亂作手的。我想這個原則對於國家的公共工程的招標也好、各方面的執行也好，會有正面的幫助。但是我發現公共工程來標的越來越少，現場也一直在說缺工的問題，這個部分，我們去看從業人員的年紀，勞動力短缺和人口老化，大概45歲到64歲中間是比較集中的，30歲到39歲是比較少的，20歲到29歲不知道你們那邊有沒有統計資料，我猜一定更少。如果要提高年輕人願意擔任營造業或相關的勞力工作，事實上很多人都不願意來，主委有沒有什麼方法？"],["吳主任委員澤成：根據我們的瞭解，現在我們主要勞工還是靠國內勞工，大概有三十幾萬，年齡也一直在上漲，年輕人越來越少，這是事實，現在我們採取幾個措施，除了暫時性外勞來補充之外，根本性的解決希望能夠減少工程對勞工的需求，比如改為預鑄等等，將工項減掉。"],["許委員智傑：工法。"],["吳主任委員澤成：工法，減少勞工的需求。"],["許委員智傑：這是一個方法。我另外提一個，請主委參考。你可以看到金質獎是工程會一個相當重要的頒獎典禮，這幾年也看到，109年、110年和111年都有增加一些項目，111年個人貢獻職人獎，這個我滿感興趣的，這讓一輩子，就像日本職人獎很興盛，年輕人要得到這個職人獎現在還有困難，我想是不是有機會我們來增加20歲到40歲以增加其價值和榮譽感，比如有人很會釘板模，我們就頒獎最佳男模，有人很會綁鐵，我們就頒獎最佳男鐵，也就是鼓勵年輕人參與。我們可以看到很多年輕人寧願到餐廳端盤子，一個月賺兩萬多塊，不願意到現場做最佳男模、最佳男鐵，一個月可以賺7萬塊，如果很努力的賺錢，一個月賺7萬塊沒有問題。其實白天做得很辛苦，但回家洗澡後晚上出門穿得很時髦也可以做最佳男模、最佳男鐵，這種看法不知道主委是否認同？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們現在的做法和委員所講的方向差不多一致，一個是給他尊榮感，第二個是給他證照制度，給他技術士證照。"],["許委員智傑：技術證照他們一定會去考，這個沒問題，因為考上了才有資格。"],["吳主任委員澤成：讓他有尊榮、讓他有保障，也提高他的薪水。"],["許委員智傑：我的具體建議是111年增辦的個人貢獻職人獎可能年長者會居多。"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們也有鼓勵青年。"],["許委員智傑：如何給予年輕人類似這樣的鼓勵方式，給他們比較有榮譽感，取得工作的價值，這樣年輕人比較願意投入，也可以增加年輕人的一個缺工的問題並給予協助。"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們現在正在努力的朝這個方向走。"],["許委員智傑：我要跟你說的是金質獎、職人奧斯卡，你可以思考的是分類，尤其是營造業很辛苦，所以我覺得最佳男模和最佳男鐵不錯。"],["吳主任委員澤成：這需要鼓勵，我每次到工地……"],["許委員智傑：包括名稱，名稱要有趣、有價值又有趣，那他會感覺他得到工程會金質獎頒獎最佳男模，其實是釘板模的。但這種榮譽感不一樣，我做鳳山市長時，會跟清潔隊員說其實你們很重要，沒有你們整個城市會很臭。"],["吳主任委員澤成：沒有錯。"],["許委員智傑：有人說你是倒垃圾的好像是在否定你，好像這個職業有分貴賤，其實你們很重要，你們要有那個光榮感和榮譽感，人家這樣講是他們不對，我們自己要肯定自我，自我肯定很重要，但政府能夠肯定的話，榮譽感會加倍、加很多倍，因此我希望主委可以在金質獎再研究一下。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["許委員智傑：我很希望下次我就可以看到最佳男模和最佳男鐵，這樣是鼓勵年輕人參與營造業，好不好？"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["許委員智傑：我很希望下次可以看到，希望主委一起努力。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，謝謝。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝。"],["主席：許委員發言完畢。","現在請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","現在請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在。","現在請鄭天財Sra 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11:45:45","影片長度":"00:11:11","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":671,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:45:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:34:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":654,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（11時34分）謝謝主席。秘書長、今天列席的各位廳、處長，以及在場委員、媒體，大家午安。我想請教秘書長，這張圖表來自司法院112年度一般民眾對於司法認知的調查數據，也是司法院自95年開始每年委託民調公司所做的調查報告，並且做長期的觀察，其中對於法官的信任度，自109年度就超過五成，近兩年更維持在近六成、高達五成八的滿意度。從這次調查看來，也是蔡總統任內最後一次調查報告，但是在民間，我們也看到傳出的數據是三成二的滿意度調查結果。我想請教秘書長，對於這個數據，您的解讀如何？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為各種民調在命題方面內容不同，一般民眾答復可能還是會跟調查內容有關。"],["陳委員俊宇：對調查結果還是有關？"],["吳秘書長三龍：對，會有關。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。","其實在這次民調顯示的結果中，民眾認為司法不公正的主要原因可能是法官亂判，而且對於不符合民意的判決結果就會歸類為法官亂判，才會導致像剛才秘書長您所說的，數據看起來可能因為民眾滿意度是依照個人感覺答詢而有落差，當然這也是可作參考的依據。雖然最近的滿意度是有史以來，從95年到現在看起來是最高點，但我也希望可以繼續，不要因為滿意度到了58個百分點就停在那邊，是不是還可以繼續提升？針對民眾對法官的信任度相關問題，我希望我們可以一起策進，不要就停在這邊，而是可以再往上攀升，這部分再請秘書長跟所有同仁一起努力。","再來就是血汗司法官問題，對於血汗司法官，我相信最近也常常聽到。當然，高滿意度的背後是否就是來自高工時、高壓力的司法官制度，才會演變到有這個問題產生？本席的選區在宜蘭，以宜蘭地方法院為例，觀察到今年1月，新受理民事案件較去年同期增加近40%，刑事案件也比去年同期增加差不多超過45%以上，但這不是宜蘭縣的個案，應該是全國的通案。針對全國性的問題，我想請教，各縣市地方法官這種案件如此爆量的情況，對於這個問題，有沒有什麼解決辦法？"],["吳秘書長三龍：確實人力是不足的，所以我們也很期盼在總員額法中的上限1萬5,000人能夠達到，也麻煩國會這邊協助，因為確實是人力不足。"],["陳委員俊宇：人力不足？"],["吳秘書長三龍：人力不足，因為案件爆量，民、刑事案件增加的比例都相當、相當地高。"],["陳委員俊宇：那針對人員不足的部分，我想請教秘書長，對於案件內容有沒有辦法分門別類？像有些案件其實可以不必進入司法機關，可以在地方調處或有其他方式，如透過警察機關協助，有沒有可能？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這也涉及到刑事訴訟法整個體制的問題，尤其像現在這幾年整個傾向就是很多事都需要法院來照料啦！"],["陳委員俊宇：對。"],["吳秘書長三龍：都需要法院照料。因為不管怎樣，法院還是在我們社會會被認為是公信力的場所，所以很多修法之後，到最後都需要法官來把關、來照料。"],["陳委員俊宇：本席個人認為是，在我們整個配套可以比較完善的情況之下，能夠讓我們的司法官不要這麼地勞心勞累。這個部分我還是請秘書長跟同仁一起去研議，看看有沒有什麼辦法可以在員額不足的情況之下，來減輕我們司法官的工作量。"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：因為我們在司法改革的方案中也很明確地，第6點裡面已經寫出，就是希望能夠減輕法官的工作負擔，這部分我真的希望我們來重視這個問題。"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，在國民法官制度問題的部分，我想跟秘書長來做一個探討。我們國民法官法已經上路1周年了，司法院在1月份的記者會當中也有提到，去年國民法官案件共有108件，相信今天也有許多委員都關心，因為我們原本設定是300件，很顯然在處理的過程裡面並沒有這麼多，也有許多縣市到現在是掛零，我們宜蘭縣是最晚破蛋的一個縣市，可是也只有一件而已。司法院對於這個問題要如何檢討？今年我們要如何來調整？有沒有辦法達成這個目標？"],["吳秘書長三龍：先跟委員報告，因為畢竟要有一定法定要件才會進入到國民法官，所以有可能那一段時間在所屬的縣市治安相對是好的，有些其實它是正面的，當然最後它還是會有一個平均數出來。而且它是法定要件，就是在什麼情況之下它就要進入到國民法官，所以它還是有一定要件。"],["陳委員俊宇：有要件跟門檻。"],["吳秘書長三龍：過門檻才會進來。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。那我想再請教一下，就是針對這個圖表，也是司法院自己做的調查，可以看到我們有近7成、超過半數的民眾擔心自己擔任國民法官的時候，會不會看不懂或是不暸解狀況，雖然國民法官的精神是借重民眾自身的生活經驗來做處理，但應該還是要推動普及法學的常識，讓有機會擔任國民法官的民眾能夠有信心。可是這個調查報告裡面有提到，年滿23歲就有機會擔任國民法官，有超過半數的民眾是不知道的，是不是我們國民法官的宣傳不夠廣？請司法院對於這個問題是不是來做更詳細的宣導，還是什麼方式來檢討？有沒有可能？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。其實我們也都有儘量在宣導，比如說像目前郵局的提款機其實都有我們國民法官這方面的一些宣導……"],["陳委員俊宇：對。"],["吳秘書長三龍：接著我們廳長有一些補充。"],["李廳長釱任：謝謝委員關心這個問題。事實上我們在國民法官的宣導部分，我們叫做多元多方的宣導方式，包括我們會針對村里鄰、學校或是企業團體做宣導活動，包括比較深度的報導，進到校園裡面跟學生做互動，或是模擬法庭的一些相關宣傳，這部分我們會持續再做，這個多元分流的宣導活動我們一直都持續在進行。至於委員所提到的，剛剛說有半數的國民法官擔心他看不懂相關的法律知識，是不是要做科普的部分，當然科普是很重要的……"],["陳委員俊宇：對。"],["李廳長釱任：但是大家也不用擔心，我們就是要進用多元觀點、不同領域的人進來，不一定要懂法律。在法院的審理過程之中，我們透過所謂審理程序的法院告知，或是在審理其中有一些相關的事宜，我們會讓參與的國民法官都能瞭解整個訴訟程序的內容，包括證據的認定、根據什麼樣的證據認定什麼樣的事實，在評議階段有什麼不清楚的，都可以詢問法官，法官都很樂意地給他一個正確的觀念跟相關的說明，所以這部分我們一直都持續地在進行，以上。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝秘書長、謝謝廳長。我還是建議我們針對宣傳方面應該朝向更廣泛的方式，或是更生動，能夠讓年輕人有一個誘因的一種宣導方式，我相信這對我們一定是正面的。好，以上。"],["吳秘書長三龍：是，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們先處理一下會議的時間，上午的會議我們直接進行到所有登記發言的委員詢答完畢為止。另外，待會傅崐萁委員發言結束之後，我們會先休息5分鐘。","接下來請謝龍介委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","翁曉玲","黃國昌","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","柯建銘","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鄭天財Sra 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深度的報導"},{"start":586.625,"end":611.097,"text":"那跟到學校園裡面跟學生做互動或是模擬法庭的一些相關的宣傳那這部分我們會持續在做那在這多元多那個多元分流的宣導活動我們一直都在持續在進行那這有關剛剛委員所提到的剛剛說有半數的國民法官擔心說他看不懂法律相關法律知識是不是要做科普的部分當然科普是很重要的"},{"start":611.317,"end":611.597,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":630.021,"end":649.022,"text":"參與的國民法官都會了解整個訴訟程序的內容包括證據的認定根據什麼樣的證據認定什麼樣的事實在評議階段有什麼不清楚的都可以詢問法官法官都很樂意的給他一個正確的觀念跟相關的說明所以這部分我們一直都是在做持續的進行上"},{"start":649.562,"end":670.034,"text":"好 謝謝秘書長 謝謝廳長那我是還是建議就是我們針對宣傳方面應該朝向更這個廣泛的方式或是更生動能夠有讓年輕人有一個誘因的一種宣導方式我相信這對我們一定是正面的好 以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149246","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149246","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd5b487aaabb12a752baff13691fd5102bf8ba9b0039caa7a6a4c7546c8cb28b6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"11:27:52 - 11:42:42","影片長度":"00:14:50","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":890,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:42:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:27:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":687,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（11時27分）謝謝主席，請潘部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長早安。我們第11屆第一個會期的第一次質詢，就是面對教育部，本席要先肯定教育部關於高中職免學費，以及補助私立大專院校學費的政策。私立大專院校的部分是註冊單上面就扣除減免，這是讓有就學孩子的家庭非常有感的一項協助，孩子就讀私立學校的家庭能夠減輕壓力，讓唸書不再是壓力，家長和孩子都能不再恐懼、害怕看到開學時註冊單上的金額。所以本席要代表選區所有家中有就學孩子的家庭，感謝教育部用實際行動協助，讓上學不再是壓力。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員，這也是因為總統和總統當選人賴副總統在這方面給教育部全力支持。"],["陳委員秀寳：是，非常感謝。說到孩子的壓力，本席要關心的是去年就開始在大專院校辦理的心理調適假，經過青年學生團體的連署和宣傳，教育部去年已經說明，113年3月將會依照各校的意願試辦。本席想要了解的是，上個禮拜就是3月1日，今天是3月4日，這兩天有多少學校開始辦理，讓學生可以實際請心理調適假？教育部是否有掌握資訊？有多少學校會辦理學生的心理調適假？"],["潘部長文忠：委員很關心高中職的部分，關於這部分，目前已經有四十幾所大學開始執行，參考學校推行的經驗，教育部也函發身心調適假的指引，我相信後續會有更多大學展開工作。關於高中、高職的階段，其實我們已經做了很多意見蒐集，目前掌握到的，大概有42所學校會從3月開始試辦，也希望藉由他們的試辦，幫我們蒐集更多執行方面的意見。"],["陳委員秀寳：剛才署長說42所學校表達有試辦的意願，會從這部分開始，藉他們辦理的經驗開始推廣？"],["潘部長文忠：對。因為大學這部分的空間比較大，而且孩子也更大，至於高中職，有時候家長、學校還是會有一些擔心等等，所以我們才會希望藉由這次42所學校的參與，累積這部分的經驗之後，會依據……"],["陳委員秀寳：對，我們要蒐集相關意見。"],["潘部長文忠：對。希望8月的時候，全國能夠同步展開。"],["陳委員秀寳：但本席要提醒，我們看待心理調適假時，不要先入為主認為學生請心理調適假是因為他不想上課。我們都非常注重就學階段孩子的心理狀態，也希望藉由心理調適假協助孩子，當他們覺得有壓力，身心狀態不太平衡的時候，讓他們可以適時休息、放鬆，讓調整過後的狀態能夠更專注學習，這是我們的初衷。所以這個部分也請教育部在這42所學校試辦之後了解狀況，並且積極檢視成效，蒐集相關意見。"],["潘部長文忠：會，好的。關於這方面，這42所學校都有意願，而且他們也會積極嘗試，如果有好的推動經驗做為基礎，我相信全國五百多所高中職進行的時候應該會更順利。"],["陳委員秀寳：好的。接下來和部長討論一下我國高教人才培育的相關政策，過去本席質詢時也有提過我國STEM領域人才大量減少的問題。本席要先肯定教育部，你們有在積極辦理，目前核定18座重點產業人才培育基地，包含半導體、智慧製造、人工智慧以及電動車等相關產業，就是未來會有大發展，也急需這類人才的重點產業，教育部核定每年超過1,000名的外加招生名額並與產業合作，攜手培育重點產業需要的人才。","目前6所大專院校的半導體學院已經在112學年度開始招生，請問部長，半導體之外的其他領域研究學院有預計的招生期程嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：如果就研究學院11校12個學院來說，目前都在招生了，有些成立的比較慢，也在籌備招生中，他們在這方面的運作狀況，就教育部所掌握的，從他們招生的競爭程度就可以知道，確實吸引很多優秀、有意願的學生參與。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以這一千多個名額都陸續招生了？"],["潘部長文忠：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：請教一下，半導體學院在112學年度核定的招生人數是655人，這部分的名額大概就占了一半多，也就是說，其他領域的招生人數大概和半導體學院的總和差不多，這樣名額夠嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：也要謝謝大院委員會的全力支持，產學創新條例其實是國內一項非常具有突破性的法例，能夠解開過去我們對學校的好多限制。當時教育部也有提到，因為這是一個高階科技技術人才的養成，所以當時在名額的審核上，我們就是以碩博為主。","碩士的部分，以一個學院來說大概是一百人上下，我們希望把這部分的基礎打好。如果從學校的課程設計和師資延聘來說，目前看起來真的都非常頂尖，後續也會在這樣的基礎之下再逐步思考。確實，研究學院除了研究發展之外，其實對於一些產業參與的再推廣……"],["陳委員秀寳：部長的意思是說，相關的領域人才培育，後續也有可能再增加？"],["潘部長文忠：委員指的是其他領域嗎？"],["陳委員秀寳：對。"],["潘部長文忠：領域這部分一定要大家有共識啦！因為當時大院提的就是以重點產業領域為主，並不是針對所有科系，目前大概是七大重點領域，除了半導體、循環經濟、智慧科技等等，還包含金融、國際傳播和政治、經濟。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，我們對高階的人才培育非常重視，因此臺灣的科技研究在世界上一直是名列前茅。"],["潘部長文忠：是的。"],["陳委員秀寳：也希望教育部能夠積極辦理相關的高科技人才培育，讓臺灣一直有這樣的優勢。如果我們的產業界有這樣的需求，也希望產、學、官三方面都能夠因應需求進行調整、檢討，讓我們的人才能接續上，不會有斷層的疑慮。所以教育部除了對現在執行的培育方案必須有所掌握，包括現在對人力的需求、招生名額是否接的上，接下來要如何調整、因應，這個部分希望教育部能夠持續去做。"],["潘部長文忠：是的，謝謝委員的關心。研究學院就是以高階技術專業人才為主，我們會持續注意委員提醒的事項，也會跨部會進行連結。像這次國科會提出晶創臺灣計畫，其實就是在談未來臺灣高階研發人才，對延續臺灣半導體產業的優勢非常重要。另外有一塊，也是委員一開始就關心的，區域產學在做的就是更一般性的人力提供……"],["陳委員秀寳：因為不只半導體產業有需要。"],["潘部長文忠：對，而且那個方案更廣，包含現在產業需要的在職進修，教育部是從這兩軌進行，對於高階技術人才的培養，還有現在產業所需要的即戰力人力，會以這樣的方向進行。我們也會持續蒐集學校關於執行方面的意見，如果有需要會再做檢討、精進，我們會持續努力。"],["陳委員秀寳：好的，謝謝部長。提到我們高教人才的培育，其實剛才很多委員都有關心到，本席要進一步和部長討論很多委員關心的，進入高教的相關門檻，也就是學習歷程檔案。近日有學生團體指出，現在學習歷程檔案有商品化的問題，本席辦公室也上網找過，隨便在網路上的賣場就可以找到學習歷程檔案的代寫服務，上面還聲稱能夠提供熱門學校各科系的代寫服務，甚至還能幫你避開志願科系的學長姐，避免尷尬。教育部有回應已經函請各大學必須尊重招生倫理，但是很明顯，在賣場中提供服務的就是在大學就讀的學生，並不是教職員，針對這樣的狀況，教育部有什麼方法可以避免學習歷程檔案外包的情事發生？"],["潘部長文忠：為什麼我們要正式、嚴正的要求校院？因為這是招生的單位，哪有招生單位還在辦可能和升學有關的收費梯隊？因為教育部主管相關學校，所以我們一定要有明確的要求和立場。現在坊間確實也有一些補習班、平台，可能因為家長忙啊……"],["陳委員秀寳：不一定是補習班，剛才說的這種代寫，有的就是個人，他在網路上賣這樣的服務。"],["潘部長文忠：我們也一直在持續了解這類的廣告，一旦查到，也會儘快要求一定要下架。關於學生這部分，為什麼我們還是要不斷提醒？因為代寫一旦在甄試過程中被查到，就會被直接取消資格，即使入學了，也會取消相關的入學資格，這是非常嚴重的。如果是補習班或個人，當然補習班有其管理規則，至於自然人例如剛才委員提到的，如果進一步查獲，這也會涉及到……"],["陳委員秀寳：剛才部長有提到，學生這方面也會宣導，如果你是用這樣的方式取得學習歷程，交出去之後如果被查獲，可能就會取消你的入學資格，這是非常嚴重的，也要讓學生知道這件事情的嚴重性。"],["潘部長文忠：對，所以對學校、對學生都要說清楚。"],["陳委員秀寳：本席要提醒教育部，你們要格外重視學習歷程檔案商品化的現象，當初設置的初衷是希望學生在製作學習歷程的過程中了解自己的志向，也同時提供大學錄取學生的依據，如果這部分已經走到商品化，發展已經有所偏頗，那麼對於學習歷程檔案外包的現象，我們就要非常重視，也要進行檢討。針對如何提供相關防範措施，請教育部一個月內提供書面報告給本席辦公室，可以嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：好的，這部分我們會在時間內提供給委員參考。"],["陳委員秀寳：主席，請再給本席1分鐘，本席快速的說一下。本席記得去年這個時候也質詢過部長，就是學測時受到廣播聲干擾的問題，當時本席要求教育部要進行檢討，並且要確實建立考場監考的SOP，但是今年又有狀況發生，就是學生考試時提前響鈴，當時監考人員的做法不一樣，有的是直接收回試卷，有的是繼續作答。","當然，大考中心針對這個狀況有提出以加分的方式補償，但是學生在第一場考試時遇到這種狀況，其實後來考試的心情都會受到影響，成績當然也會受到影響，而且加分對其他學生也不公平，主要是會有這樣的疑慮。這不是第一次發生，而是每一次學測都發生這樣的問題，顯示大考中心看待這些事情的態度並不是很嚴謹，他們有沒有確實建立SOP？就是監考時如果遇到狀況應該怎麼應對。這部分部長有什麼看法？"],["潘部長文忠：因為入學考試是非常嚴肅的問題，本來就有非常清楚的SOP，不管是各分區或各試場，其實動作都是全國一致的，現在連要不要開冷氣也有一個標準。"],["陳委員秀寳：但是你聽到鈴響時，不是應該先確定時間嗎？怎麼會直接收卷？"],["潘部長文忠：過去三年大家因為疫情真的很緊繃，我發現這次會出差錯，就是一個單獨學校設定鐘響時間的時候，少了double check這個程序，如果有做就不會有這個問題。為什麼我說我們會逐項的做？為什麼會去做檢討？因為接下來馬上就是統測、會考，這樣的個案都會影響到學生，儘管後續大考中心有提出補救措施。我認為試務工作真的要非常嚴謹，不能有任何差錯。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以部長，您也了解這個問題非常嚴重。"],["潘部長文忠：是的，我們還開檢討會。"],["陳委員秀寳：已經連續兩年出狀況，希望你們謹慎面對這個問題。"],["潘部長文忠：我知道。試務中心的同仁非常辛苦，但是有一個細節沒注意到就會有影響，所以我一方面感謝試務人員，一方面也特別提醒大家，這些都是可能會發生的問題，結果真的發生了。這部分我們會借鏡，接下來四月底和五月的兩項入學考試，相關細節我們都會要求，好不好？"],["陳委員秀寳：好的，嚴謹一點，不要再發生了。"],["潘部長文忠：一定。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝主席。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","請林委員倩綺發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","林倩綺","林宜瑾","吳春城","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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非常地感謝那講到孩子的壓力這邊本席要來關心在去年就已經在大專院校辦理的心理調適架那經過青年學生團體的聯署跟宣傳那教育部在去年已經有說明"},{"start":80.973,"end":81.373,"text":"是根文報告齁"},{"start":102.389,"end":124.911,"text":"因為委員大人關心我們高中子這部分那大學的這部分目前已經有40多校他們已經開始在執行了那我們也藉由學校推行的一些經驗教育部也含發了一個調適架身心調適架的一些指引那我相信後續更多的大學會更快的展開"},{"start":125.852,"end":130.395,"text":"高中高職的這個階段我們過去其實已經開始做很多意見的收集目前掌握到大概有42所學校會從3月就開始來示範希望藉由他們的示範能夠幫我們收集更多執行上的一些意見所以剛才署長這邊說有42家的學校有表達他們有示範的意願對"},{"start":151.388,"end":154.07,"text":"會從這邊開始就是說有他們辦的經驗來開始推廣嗎?對對因為大學當然空間跟孩子也更大啦那高中子有時候家長啊學校會有一些擔心或等所以我就藉由這一次42所需要的參與那我們來把這個經驗累積之後會預計相關的意見我們來收集對對對希望在8月我們能夠全國在這方面能夠同步展開"},{"start":176.605,"end":182.31,"text":"我們希望說有這樣子的心理調適架我們可以進展來協助孩子當他們覺得有壓力他們心情狀態不太平衡的時候讓他們可以適時的休息適時的放鬆調整過後的狀態希望可以能夠更專注來學習這個是我們的初衷"},{"start":206.109,"end":211.272,"text":"所以這個部份也請教育部這邊在這42個學校事辦之後我們了解狀況並很積極地檢視這些成效那收集相關的意見這方面我想這42個學校都是有意願而且他們也應該更積極在嘗試所以如果有好的這些推動的經驗能夠做基礎我相信在全國500多所學校高中子在進行的時候應該會更順利"},{"start":232.984,"end":237.948,"text":"接下來跟部長討論一下我國高障人才培育相關的政策那過去本席在質詢的時候也提出過我國指定民意人才大量減少這個問題但在這邊本席也先肯定教育部我們也沒有積極的在辦理目前有核定18座重點產業的人才培育基地這裡面包含有半導體智慧製造人工智慧以及電動車等等相關的產業就是未來會有大發展也集區各這樣的人才的一些重點產業"},{"start":261.505,"end":265.509,"text":"那教育部合併每年超過1000個外加招生名額：並與產業合作來攜手培育重點產業所需要的人才目前6間大專院校的半導體學院已經在112學年度開始招生請問部長那其他在半導體之外的這些其他領域的研究學院有預計的招生的期程嗎"},{"start":284.806,"end":312.557,"text":"根本報告,如果就研究學院的十一校十二個學院目前都在招生,都已招生了,因為有些是成立的比較慢的也在做籌備招生中,他們的運作在這方面就教育部所掌握到的在從他們招生的競爭程度就可以知道確實吸引了很多優秀的這些有意願的學生想參與"},{"start":314.298,"end":321.004,"text":"這些名額呢我們一千多人呢就是陸陸續續的其實都有招生進來了那我想請教一下半導體學院在112年合併的招生人數是655人那我們的名額就大概佔了一半了一半多那也就是說剩下的其他領域的招生人數大概也只有跟半導體學院總和差不多那這樣子我們的名額是夠的嗎"},{"start":339.387,"end":342.708,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個也要謝謝我們大院委員會這邊的全力支持那個產學創新條例其實是國內一個非常突破性的一個法律能夠把它解開過去我們對學校有好多好多的限制那當時教育部這邊也提到因為這是一個高階科技技術人才的養成所以當時在名額上我們就是以碩博為主"},{"start":365.414,"end":365.434,"text":"﹚陳秀寳"},{"start":383.078,"end":383.899,"text":"那部長的意思就是說相關的領域的人才培育後續也有可能再繼續增加?"},{"start":399.271,"end":426.233,"text":"委員指的是其他領域嗎對領域這部分一定要大家有共識因為當時就是以我們大院當時提的就是以重點產業領域為主並不是所有的科技目前我們大概是7個重點領域其他重點領域除了半導體循環經濟智慧科技等等那當中也包含金融國際傳播還有政治經濟部長當然"},{"start":426.753,"end":446.323,"text":"我們對於這個高階的這些人才培育我們都非常重視因爲我們台灣其實我們的科技領域的研究一直在世界上都是名列前茅那也希望說我們教育部能夠很積極的來辦理這些相關的高科技領域人才的培育讓我們台灣可以一直有這樣的優勢那如果說我們的產業界有這樣的需求也希望說我們在我們的產學這三方面都能夠因應這樣子的需求來做調整來做檢討"},{"start":455.708,"end":485.708,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":485.708,"end":515.708,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":516.749,"end":523.673,"text":"對對對而且那個更廣而且那個部分也包含對於現在產業在職的進修所以我想教育部是以這樣的兩軌能夠對於高階技術人才的培養還有現在產業所需要的這種集戰力的人力會以這樣的方向來進行會持續澳美會持續收集學校在執行面的一些意見如果有需要再做檢討進行我們會持續來"},{"start":541.305,"end":567.531,"text":"謝謝部長提到我們高教人才的培運剛才其實有很多委員都有關心到這邊來跟部長討論我們很多委員所關心的我們要進入高教來這個相關的門檻也就是學習歷程檔案近日有學生團體指出學習歷程檔案現在有商品化的問題本席辦公室這邊也上網找一下其實隨便你在網路上賣場就可以找到學習歷程檔案的代寫服務"},{"start":568.511,"end":589.364,"text":"上面還聲稱說能夠提供任門學校各個科系的代學服務甚至還能幫你避開同科系的志願科系的學長姐避免尷尬那教育部目前你們有回應就是說已經還請各大學必須尊重招生倫理但是很明顯的在賣場上提供服務的是已經在大學就讀的學生並不是教職員"},{"start":590.345,"end":597.927,"text":"那這樣子的狀況目前部長你們教育部有什麼方式可以來避免學習歷程答案有這樣子外包的情勢發生?"},{"start":599.13,"end":627.29,"text":"市長 跟委員報告因為韓請大學校院為什麼要正式嚴正的要求因為這個是招生的單位哪有招生的單位還在辦這些可能跟升學有關的這些收費的梯隊這個是因為從教育部主管相關的學校我們一定要把這個立場跟要求很明確那現在坊間確實也有一些補習班我們一些平台就藉由可能家長忙"},{"start":633.191,"end":656.536,"text":"我跟委員報告因為我們也一直持續有在瞭解這些可能的廣告啦如果一旦查到也會儘快要求一定要下架這些廣告但是後續再查處如果發現的我也要跟委員報告其實為什麼學生這部分我們還是要不斷的提醒啦代寫這個如果一旦在真實的過程當中被查到這直接就取消資格"},{"start":657.756,"end":657.776,"text":"﹚陳秀寳"},{"start":678.422,"end":679.003,"text":"對學校學生這個要清楚的"},{"start":694.497,"end":716.455,"text":"希望提醒教育部你們要格外地重視學習歷程檔案這個商品化的這個現象其實我們當初設置的初衷是希望在學生製作學習歷程的這個過程裡面他去聊聊自己的志向那也同時提供大學友來錄取學生這個判斷跟依據那如果說這個已經走到這已經商品化已經走到這樣子的已經是一個偏頗的一個發展的時候呢我們針對這個學習歷程檔案外包這個現象我們就要非常的注重來檢討"},{"start":724.261,"end":724.701,"text":"請再給我一分鐘我快速的講一下"},{"start":740.566,"end":743.207,"text":"本席記得在去年這個時候我也質詢過部長學測的時候受到廣播生干擾的問題當時本席也要求教育部進行檢討並且要確實的建立考場監考的SOP但是今年又有狀況發生了就是學生在考試的時候提前響鈴提前響鈴之後監考人員他的做法不一樣有的是直接收回試卷有的是繼續作答"},{"start":765.434,"end":770.678,"text":"當然大考中心針對這個狀況他有提出就是以加分的這個方式來補償但是在第一場的考試學生第一場考試遇到這種狀況其實後來他考試的心情都會受到影響學生的成績也會受到影響而且加分這個部分是對其他的成績其他學生的成績也不公平有這樣子的疑慮所以這個不是第一次發生"},{"start":787.711,"end":791.556,"text":"每一次學測都發生這樣子的問題表示我們的大考中心對這樣的事情沒有很嚴謹他們有沒有確實的建立起這個SOP就是在監測監考的時候如果遇到狀況應該怎麼樣來應對這個部分部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":803.61,"end":806.992,"text":"您聽到林曉不是先確定時間嗎?不是直接收券嗎?我發現這一次出的差錯是在學校一個單獨的學校設定"},{"start":832.406,"end":836.553,"text":"設定那個鐘響的時間少了一個double check就不會有這個問題"},{"start":837.947,"end":839.147,"text":"所以部長你也了解到說這個問題非常嚴重那已經連續兩年出問題了希望你們要謹慎的面對這個問題"},{"start":866.078,"end":866.118,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"149245","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149245","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddf1a91089232cc59af012038cf3c9e62ff8ba9b0039caa7a68e479b4c30bc6f4d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"11:29:51 - 11:38:34","影片長度":"00:08:43","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院食品安全辦公室、衛生福利部部長、食品藥物管理署就「食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅事件處理之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":523,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:38:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:29:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":779,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（11時29分）謝謝主席，請薛部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。這一次中國的辣椒粉裡面添加了蘇丹紅，也造成了一些後續的問題。我們大概在去年首次檢出違規的辣椒粉以後，就依照食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法逐步提高抽驗的數量，從20%到50%，然後到全面，這樣逐步查驗的比例是不是會查出更多？有沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：這次是越查越多，比例增高，反而是越來越多；但如果它本來就沒有那麼普遍的話，提高抽驗比例應該是會越來越少。"],["楊委員曜：所以，如果是比較大規模的違規事件，就會隨著抽驗提高，而提高它的案件數；假如是偶發事件，反而會降低，對不對？也就是說，並不是抽查的比例越高，案件就越高，要看個別的事件。我就在想是不是每一件都一樣，聽部長這樣子講，我就知道了。","我們知道食藥署這邊要研議修正食品以及相關產品的輸入查驗辦法，假如是嚴重違規的態樣，我們打算跳過加強抽驗跟逐批查驗，直接禁止輸入。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["楊委員曜：所謂嚴重違規的態樣大概會是什麼情形？"],["薛部長瑞元：像蘇丹紅就是屬於這類，我們會有幾個判斷的依據，第一就是這個產品發生違規的比例，也就是它的頻率有多高；第二就是它造成人體的危害有多重；第三就是這種非常的異常不應該出現在這個食品裡面的東西突然出現了，那麼這一個部分可能也是屬於……"],["楊委員曜：就先全面禁止，對。"],["薛部長瑞元：會先提升到100%，如果到了100%還查到的話，那就禁止。"],["楊委員曜：像現在我們查驗到了以後，因為有部分已經流入市場，你們應該有要求地方政府要強化查驗的預警機制，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對於這一些可能的漏網之魚，也就是這幾家公司進來的產品，在當時還沒有100%抽批，結果就讓它過了，我們請地方政府再去要求它回來抽驗，如果有不合格的，還是要統統下架。"],["楊委員曜：現在這個機制應該是存在啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["楊委員曜：我提一個問題，因為我們大概是按照違規的情況，從20%到50%到100%，所以在人力的部分，因為邊境查驗的項目也多，包括農藥的殘留量也都在裡面，範圍非常的廣，所以需要的人力很多。在111年也就是2022年的時候，我們輸入的食品重量將近900萬公噸，那個時候我們查驗的人員是192人，這個是111年的數字，相較於兩年前，也就是109年其實只有81個人，等於我們在兩年裡面增加了兩倍的人力，我知道有部分人力其實是透過前瞻預算來補充的，現在前瞻預算可能快要結束了，對於人力的問題，部長這邊有沒有什麼構想？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們今年會來跟行政院這邊溝通，因為食品進口的這個查驗工作是越來越繁重。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我們希望能夠增加人力，我們會跟行政院這邊來爭取，如果爭取得到，所需要的預算我們當然在今年就會編列進來，下個會期就會送到立法院。"],["楊委員曜：部長這個應該要爭取到啦！我相信不分黨派的委員也都會支持，既然大家對於國人的食安部分這麼重視，人力不足是沒有辦法處理好很多事情的。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["楊委員曜：我繼續要問就是，對於蘇丹紅違規的廠商，雲林地檢署已經開始啟動偵查，這是刑事的部分；民眾因為食品安全的關係，可能對他自己的身體有一些傷害，這裡有關民事的部分有兩個問題，第一個問題其實就是食品安全的民事訴訟，最困難的就是怎麼建構跟證明它的因果關係，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["楊委員曜：這個很困難。第二個像塑化劑、三聚氰胺這種半衰期相對短，到檢驗的時候其實很難驗出來，也就是說它在民事訴訟的難度是很高的，我們這邊有沒有協助民眾提起團體訴訟的機制？"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，我們在食安法底下所設的食安基金，其實是可以協助民眾來做這一方面的工作，也就是他的法律相關事務的費用我們是可以給予補助的，可能需要經過團體訴訟這樣子。"],["楊委員曜：也就從把關到善後，政府都有一定的責任在。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊曜委員的質詢。接下來請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":296,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-2","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","林月琴","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","楊曜","林淑芬","陳雪生","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","陳瑩","王鴻薇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","林德福"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院食品安全辦公室、衛生福利部部長、食品藥物管理署就「食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅\n事件處理之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130601_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.45659375,"end":5.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.865343750000001,"end":7.810343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.345343750000001,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.25221875,"end":50.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.17909375,"end":53.423468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.76096875,"end":55.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.376593750000005,"end":56.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.000968750000006,"end":58.570343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.16096875,"end":59.633468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.291593750000004,"end":66.33284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.95784375,"end":63.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.92784375000001,"end":66.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.80534375,"end":70.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.97346875000001,"end":74.97284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.97284375000001,"end":83.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.78159375,"end":83.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.96721875,"end":84.01784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.01784375000001,"end":85.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.35096875,"end":87.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.15659375,"end":87.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.32534375,"end":87.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.34221875,"end":87.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.35909375,"end":87.42659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.49409375,"end":88.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.23659375000001,"end":88.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.40534375,"end":88.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.72596875,"end":89.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.70034375,"end":91.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.03346875000001,"end":92.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.89409375000001,"end":94.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.69971875,"end":118.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.98909375000001,"end":106.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.44284375000001,"en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主席請教薛部長好 請部長"},{"start":14.14,"end":35.954,"text":"部長好 部長我們就這一次中國的辣椒粉裡面添加了蘇丹紅也造成了一些後續的問題那我們大概在去年首次檢出違規的辣椒粉以後就依照"},{"start":36.915,"end":59.483,"text":"食品以及相關產品輸入查驗辦法提高抽驗的數量那我們是逐步提高20%然後50%然後到全面這樣子逐步查驗的比例跟是不是會查出更多有沒有"},{"start":60.879,"end":87.846,"text":"這一次是查出來越查越多,因為比例增高是越來越多但是如果說它本來就沒有那麼普遍的話提高這個抽驗比例應該是比例會越來越少所以就是假如說是比較大規模的違規事件就會隨著抽驗提高"},{"start":88.846,"end":117.654,"text":"提高他的案件數假如是偶發的反而會降低對不對也就是說並不是抽查的比例越高案件就越高啦要看個別的事件這個我想說是不是每一件都一樣那部長這樣子也是我知道"},{"start":118.547,"end":144.133,"text":"那我們我們現在大概我知道食藥署這邊有在研議要修正食品及相關產品的輸入輸入查驗辦法大概就是嚴重違規的太陽我們是打算要跳過加強抽驗跟逐批查驗直接禁止輸入對不對那這個違規嚴重違規的太陽"},{"start":148.356,"end":173.565,"text":"大概會是什麼情形?像蘇丹紅就屬於這類我們會有幾個判斷的依據第一個就是說那這一個產品發生違規的比例就是說它的頻率有多高第二就是說它造成人體的危害是有多重那第三個就是這種異常非常異常不應該出現在這一個食品裡面的東西"},{"start":175.646,"end":187.027,"text":"突然出現了,那這個部分的話可能也是屬於我們就先全面禁止可能會先提升到100%,如果100%還查到的話那就禁止了"},{"start":190.951,"end":205.119,"text":"像現在我們查驗到了以後因為有部分已經流入市場你們跟地方政府應該有要求地方政府要強化查驗的預警機制"},{"start":206.94,"end":227.431,"text":"對這些可能的漏網之魚,也就是說這幾家公司進來的產品在當時還沒有百分之一百抽批結果就讓他准他過的,我們就請地方政府再去把他回來抽驗如果有不合格的,那就還是通通要下架現在這個機制應該是存在"},{"start":232.21,"end":245.223,"text":"我提一個問題齁就是因為剛才我們大概就是按照違規的情況從20%到50%到100%所以人力的部分其實"},{"start":246.844,"end":263.381,"text":"因為邊境的茶宴,茶的項目也多,包括農藥的殘留量也都在裡面,所以範圍非常的廣,所以需要的人力很多。"},{"start":267.219,"end":286.554,"text":"在111年也就是2022年的時候我們輸入的食品重量是將近900萬公噸那個時候我們的茶宴的人數茶宴的人員是192人這個是111年的數字"},{"start":295.31,"end":317.841,"text":"相較於109年齁 相較於兩年前109年109年其實只有八十 八十一個就是等於我們在兩年裡面增加了 增加了兩倍的人力齁那 我知道 我知道這 這裡有部分的人力其實是透過前瞻預算"},{"start":319.798,"end":344.845,"text":"來補充的那現在前瞻預算可能快要結束了人力的問題部長這邊有沒有什麼構想我們在今年我們會來跟行政院這邊溝通希望說在因為這個食品進口的茶園的話工作是越來越繁重對"},{"start":345.985,"end":360.686,"text":"所以我們希望能夠增加人力這我們來跟行政院這邊爭取那如果爭取得到當然同時所需要的預算我們會編列進來在今年就編列進來那下個會期就會送到立法院來"},{"start":361.107,"end":383.514,"text":"部長這個應該要爭取到我相信不分黨派的委員也都會支持大家既然對於國人的食安的部分這麼重視人力不足是沒有辦法處理好很多事情的"},{"start":389.645,"end":397.491,"text":"市長我繼續問現在譬如說蘇丹紅違規的廠商那大概已經雲林地鐵署已經有開始在啟動偵查那這是刑事的部分"},{"start":414.984,"end":433.371,"text":"民眾因為食品安全的關係所以他可能會有對自己身體有一些傷害那這裡有關民事的部分有兩個問題第一個問題就是"},{"start":437.836,"end":460.837,"text":"其實食品安全的民事訴訟最困難的就是怎麼建構跟證明它的因果關係 對不對這個很困難 第二個就是它有的時候譬如說像塑化劑、山劇清安這種半衰期相對短"},{"start":463.206,"end":473.873,"text":"那到檢驗的時候其實很難驗出來也就是說他在民事訴訟的難度是很高的"},{"start":479.281,"end":505.991,"text":"我們這邊有沒有協助民眾提起團體訴訟的機制?報告委員我們在食安法裡面底下所設的食安基金其實是可以協助民眾來做這一方面的工作也就是說它的法律的相關的一些事務的費用的話我們是可以給予補助的那主要是如果可能這時候需要經過團體訴訟這樣子"},{"start":508.049,"end":520.925,"text":"好 這個就是我們從把關到善後政府都有一定的責任在好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 我們謝謝楊耀委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"149244","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149244","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd37620455c2b1ae77a874ae98c1f56169f8ba9b0039caa7a6acc3f5f2d3f8ee295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:25:50 - 11:36:14","影片長度":"00:10:24","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":624,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:36:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:25:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":828,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時25分）謝謝主席。有請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["邱委員志偉：另外請漁業署張署長。"],["主席：張署長。"],["邱委員志偉：去年度通過疫後特別條例，各部會都有編列疫後特別條例相關的預算，整個疫後條例是3,800億的預算規模，農委會分到多少預算？"],["陳代理部長駿季：268億。"],["邱委員志偉：有關去年度的執行狀況，我看了大概有八項，包括水資源儲存、農田水利建設、韌性漁港建設及農村送暖方案等等，這些去年執行多少經費？因為這個大概是3年度嘛？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：到115年嘛？"],["陳代理部長駿季：漁港的經費大概是3年、19億，然後今年度我們會編列大概10億左右。"],["邱委員志偉：今年10億？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，今年。"],["邱委員志偉：我的選區你也知道，你也很熟，張署長也知道，包括從梓官到彌陀，永安到茄萣，我們把彌陀漁港打造成全國前三大的魅力漁港，漁港的設施也改善了。我希望下一波針對永安的部分，你們能夠用這筆預算來支持。另外，一樣，茄萣一些碼頭設施的改善，或者整體漁港設施的提升，也要有相關的預算去支應。梓官更不用講了，梓官有個非常績優的農會，漁港也非常有特色。針對這四個漁港，我看還是請漁業署署長來回應一下，這四個漁港你都很熟嘛，當然我也跟你去過大概十來次了，四個漁港都扮演非常重要的角色，不管養殖業或者是沿海漁撈，所以漁港的設施非常重要，我拜託這個部分是不是能夠善用這筆預算，把四個漁港的建設提升？"],["張署長致盛：是，謝謝委員的關心，確實如您所說，我經常陪委員到地方去瞭解實際的情形。這四個漁港確實是非常地重要，尤其在高雄的沿近海地區。這四個漁港我們會全力來投入，包括彌陀、梓官、永安，甚至興達港，我們都會投入。"],["邱委員志偉：我拜託署長，是不是利用週末時間，你下鄉一下，去跟這四個區漁會的三巨頭或者漁會的代表做一個座談，針對漁業政策，或者漁民權益，或者漁港建設，做一個座談會可以嗎？"],["張署長致盛：沒有問題，我也會跟委員辦公室那邊來聯繫時間。"],["邱委員志偉：好，這個要麻煩你。同樣是農會的部分，選區有8區，有8個區的農會，現在沒有副部長嘛，是不是可以指派一個同仁、相關的主管到我的選區，包括路竹、橋頭、湖內、岡山農會，還有4個沿海區的農會，這8區的農會做一個農業政策及農民權益相關的座談會，這個可以嗎？部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，我想我會請輔導室這邊處理，因為我們近期就會跟農漁會還有跟漁業署一起……"],["邱委員志偉：對，當然，我一定參加啦！我會協助召集啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，我們會。"],["邱委員志偉：我會請農業部相關的局處一起來參加，我們做一個盤點。另外，你編268億，去年度的執行狀況以及今年度的預算編列情形，是不是可以提供一項資料給我？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，我們會後會提供，我想要跟委員說明的是，因為疫後特別預算到明年就結束了。"],["邱委員志偉：我知道，它的是115。"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以包括您剛才講的這些漁港的工程，如果它能夠完工，我們一定儘量第一優先支持，因為牽涉到一些相關工程的經費，還有進度的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：好，這部分我希望你們能夠有個詳細的計畫跟相關的期程。"],["陳代理部長駿季：會，我們再提供給委員。"],["邱委員志偉：這268億應該善用，而且要有成效出來。"],["陳代理部長駿季：今年是102億。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，經濟部最近在電價調整的過程中，農業部好像沒有相關的代表在電價審議委員會裡面。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，我想我們目前會透過另外的平臺機制去瞭解整個電價可能的調整。"],["邱委員志偉：其實你不用透過其他機制，你應該有一個農業部的代表加入、進入這個審議委員會，這個設置要點等經濟部來做施政報告的時候，我再做一個提案。這個設置15到17人，由經濟部長聘請相關的機關代表，我看了一下，竟然沒有農業部的代表。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：這個你們要主動去爭取。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我再跟經濟部部長協調一下，是不是也讓我們加入審議委員會。"],["邱委員志偉：我也會要求部長或者是院長，一定要有農業部的代表，否則你沒辦法為農業或者漁業的用電戶來發聲。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，謝謝委員提醒。"],["邱委員志偉：他們相對是比較弱勢的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：過去2023年3月我們也維持農漁業電價的凍漲，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：2023年9月也是一樣，維持電價不調整，凍漲，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：現在馬上又來了，我很擔心這一次你們沒有代表在裡面，會不會把我們農漁業的電價做一些調整？你們瞭解的訊息是怎麼樣？"],["陳代理部長駿季：雖然我們目前並沒有在那個委員會裡面，但是我剛才也說了，會透過管道去表達農業部對於……"],["邱委員志偉：你們有暗樁就對了，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是暗樁，我們在另外一個協調機制，也表達了農業部本身希望農業用電能夠維持凍漲。"],["邱委員志偉：好，這部分已經有表達了，長久之計一定要有農業部的代表，這我會協助你們爭取。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員志偉：你要跟院長表示的確有這個需求。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，農會的水產加工廠適用農業動力用電優惠的這個修法進度，目前怎麼樣了？這個修法我已經協調過好幾次，目前最新的進度如何呢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想這個部分我們能夠持續，像我們現在針對農業動力用電的標準，那個修正草案現在已經在行政院，希望透過跨部會的部分，看看可不可以有一個比較好的方案出來，現在還在研議。"],["邱委員志偉：我去年3月就請農業部來檢討修法，您把草案送行政院，行政院也有叫你們來做修正專報。"],["陳代理部長駿季：秘書長也有召開會議了。"],["邱委員志偉：對，目前你們補充的資料送到行政院了沒？"],["陳代理部長駿季：在部裡面，我們再送。"],["邱委員志偉：我希望能夠儘快定案。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：這個農漁會的水產加工廠適用動力用電優惠的辦法，一定要趕快出爐定案。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：這樣對漁會的運作，才能夠讓他們安心。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：好，另外情人碼頭你去過吧？"],["陳代理部長駿季：去過。"],["邱委員志偉：情人碼頭最近有去過嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：大概2個月前吧。"],["邱委員志偉：你覺得狀況怎麼樣？"],["陳代理部長駿季：還是有點亂。"],["邱委員志偉：不是有點亂，很寂寥啦！我每天都在那邊巡，曾經有一段時間有風華，有一段時間還在那邊辦國慶煙火，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：吸引了很多人潮，過去的願景是說北部有漁人碼頭，南部有情人碼頭。我現在看到整個情人碼頭……當然市政府、漁業署、海洋局也扮演了一定的角色，它有做規畫，但是很多地是屬於漁業署跟國有財產署的地，你要整體做一個休閒遊憩的規劃，我覺得應該是由你們做統籌單位，來協調國產署、海洋局，因為大部分的地是屬於漁業署的嘛。大部分過去所蓋的這些設施或者建物現在基本上都閒置，不只閒置，還有點荒廢，原先那些木棧道，這些基礎設施也都年久失修，這樣誰要去？它可以看到很多很漂亮的夕陽美景，又有很多海岸風光。過去的設施都沒有維護，這個建築也沒有繼續使用，你們願意看到這個狀況繼續衰敗下去嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想以農業部的立場來講，其實漁港本身是農村的一個生活中心，休閒漁港或休閒區本身應該是要有一個整體的規劃。過去因為地的關係，上面的這些建築可能是由不同部會去處理的，所以後續我會再跟漁業署針對這個部分召開一個專案會議，看看怎麼樣去做整體的處理。"],["邱委員志偉：時間的關係，因為已經響鈴了，質詢要尊重行政部門，行政跟立法一定要平行，絕對不是上對下的。我不能說我要講多久就講多久，資深的國會議員要作資淺國會議員的表率，所以我的質詢到此，剩下的資料，我希望比較資淺的國會議員可以看到，國會的秩序是要大家共同來維護的，我也期待陳超明委員跟我一樣，時間到了，他也會準時下來。好，謝謝主席。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：超過2分鐘了，謝謝。資深委員，敬禮一下，謝謝。","接下來我們請鄭正鈐委員詢答，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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有點荒廢那以前的一些木棧道這些基礎設施也都年久失修了 啊 那什麼東西他可以看到很多很漂亮的西洋美景 還有很多海岸風光過去的設施都沒有維護 這個建築物也沒有繼續使用"},{"start":552.51,"end":578.992,"text":"你們願意看到這個狀況繼續衰敗下去嗎?我想以農業部的立場來講其實漁港本身是農村的一個生活的重心休閒漁港本身或休閒區本身是應該是要有一個整體的規劃那過去因為地的關係上面的這些建築可能是由不同部會或者去處理的部分所以我想後續我想我會再跟漁業組針對這個部分我們開一個交通會議看看怎麼樣去做整體的一個處理"},{"start":581.134,"end":606.991,"text":"時間關係因為已經響鈴了作為質詢要尊重行政部門一定要行政跟立法是平行的絕對不是上對下的我不能說我要講多久就講多久資深議員資深的國務院要做之前的國務院的表率所以我質詢到此剩下資料"},{"start":609.141,"end":609.361,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"149243","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149243","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddc080118f4994ead3faa0e83a28976539f8ba9b0039caa7a60983c6007e13c4a15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:24:40 - 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主委各位我想主委大家都很關心這個2050的淨零轉型2050要達到淨零碳排我想這個全球在國際這些政界領袖大家共同努力底下雖然大家都努力啦但很困難"},{"start":37.756,"end":53.793,"text":"蔡總統也宣誓2050作為台灣淨零碳排所以國安會提出了淨零碳排轉型的路徑等等其中12項關鍵戰略我看了一下其中包括第8項的資源循環零廢棄"},{"start":55.194,"end":68.837,"text":"那我也看到政府所提出這個所謂的關鍵項目當中無機材料及利料其中這個大概是公共工程委員會裡面要協助辦理的部分"},{"start":70.27,"end":84.571,"text":"那基本上我知道主委對於其實這幾年已經有一些動作努力在做但是對我來講我都覺得這個其實我們應該想辦法來合作讓他效率再提升"},{"start":87.039,"end":102.485,"text":"我們知道循環經濟其實在談的就是說其實世界上是沒有垃圾這個東西啦只在於說我們的科技進步到哪裡或者我們處理成本有多高如果處理成本不是很高其實垃圾就是黃金嘛因為它是有效的資源"},{"start":103.875,"end":127.9,"text":"在這個架構底下,我只取中一種例子,因為時間有限,我只取其中一種例子,叫做濾清混泥土。我們都要求濾清混泥土一定要刨除之後再鋪設。那主委你知道現在堆積在台灣土地上面的濾清混泥土的這些廢料大概有多少數量?"},{"start":133.018,"end":142.654,"text":"按照業者提供大概有465萬噸對這個是工會提供的數字那地方政府呢地方政府還有沒有儲存"},{"start":144.96,"end":160.945,"text":"現在我已經要求前面做調查到底量多少我已經答應業者要去前面清查出來400多萬公噸是保守估計換言之有可能500萬、600萬噸的刨儲物這個刨儲物不是不可以再利用"},{"start":169.819,"end":179.705,"text":"事實上隨著科技它的運用範圍可能可以更廣換言之透過技術上的研發加工它的強度也可以讓它更強"},{"start":181.121,"end":206.142,"text":"但是問題就來了就是誰要來用它也就是說如果我們談循環經濟我們認為它事實上任何我們要追求達到淨零碳排的過程其實任何事情的處理它都是產業啦也就是我們一定要從產業的概念來思考這個問題而不是從垃圾的概念來思考這個問題如果你用垃圾的概念來思考這個問題我認為它很難成功"},{"start":209.685,"end":219.332,"text":"就像我知道主委有公告這個所有的地方政府工程的發包一定如果這個所謂的"},{"start":224.432,"end":238.658,"text":"這個濾清混凝土的刨除物如果沒有辦法在工程裡面達到平衡地方政府要編列預算給廠商不可以叫廠商事先自己再去引導處理啦我覺得這個是對但是這個對齁只對一半"},{"start":243.139,"end":271.531,"text":"這個對紙面對工會今天產生那麼多的濾清刨除物到處堆砌主委我想你也知道這個堆砌物基本上我們在政府的都市計畫或者政府相關土地的規劃裡面其實又沒有足夠的空間來堆砌這個因為堆砌這個對很多人來講這個叫嫌惡你家的旁邊濾清粉泥土的廢料堆積如山"},{"start":272.901,"end":298.227,"text":"可是呢如果我們從產業發展的角度它其實是某一種產業的原料它其實不是垃圾但是我們現在的架構裡面因為產業鏈沒有產業鏈的思維沒有產業發展的思維所以我們當它叫做廢棄物的處理我們概念上還沒有跳脫它是用產業的角度所以我的意思就是說我建議主委"},{"start":299.315,"end":322.279,"text":"面對你看齁作為這個濾清的刨除業者他們沒有地方堆砌也到處在陳請他們也希望合法希望政府能夠給他們堆砌的空間那就算你補貼他錢就算地方政府沒有辦法在工程裡面讓刨除去平衡給他錢還是沒有地方堆啦"},{"start":323.579,"end":348.791,"text":"對了放在那裡三年五年十年對周遭的這個來講大家又嫌惡他啦所以這個就是我講的這個做一半啦就雖然我們有嘗試解決但是我覺得這個解決的方法其實應該更加認真來思索那我剛剛我也想到嘛譬如說你那個我們的那個葉副主委啊他其實對產業很了解"},{"start":349.639,"end":375.9,"text":"就是說我們應該整體比如說請業務主委來思考工程會可以扮演什麼角色因為我們從我們的內政部跟環保署在這些所謂的無機材料及利料裡面他們是主辦單位那還有兩個我們工程會都是協辦那我剛剛講過如果用產業的角度來思考這個問題那他應該統合起來也就是說"},{"start":377.25,"end":395.016,"text":"到底這400多萬噸他放在哪裡他的內容物是什麼那內容物是什麼產業可以在這個平台上會不會有產業願意投入來將這樣的力量來進行加工或者加入什麼樣的東西他的強度可以變成什麼樣"},{"start":396.178,"end":423.757,"text":"所以換言之它其實是一個產業那接著呢這些東西要怎麼收它其實是一個平台也就是說我想要來做這一行加工但是我要去收啦這個也要政府的力量啊不然你這裡有刨廚房、那裡有刨廚房它要怎麼去收所以架了平台透過研發跟管理那最後就是我們的制度面了也就是說你政府沒有在法規上面去規定"},{"start":425.153,"end":439.799,"text":"市場商他就不一定會贏嘛他就不一定會使用除非你的價格非常有優勢所以他其實是一個需要政府來統籌的事情如果我們沒有政府在這裡面扮演角色這個事情其實是做不來的"},{"start":440.575,"end":465.234,"text":"所以我的意思是說我們澤良副主委他其實對產業了解所以他可以試圖的統籌因為我看都把工程會列為協助單位而已並不是你們來主導所以我會希望說這個應該有一個高度有一個計畫所以要從產業發展的角度來思考這個問題"},{"start":466.96,"end":478.622,"text":"主委你的看法怎麼樣這個問題我講第一個會造成的原因就是政府在執行上面的偏差造成了一個結果"},{"start":479.946,"end":498.04,"text":"那麼今天要收尾還需要政府同意委員的看法。那麼當初的規定是有問題的。他要求人家刨除的濾青你越西越左通通要買回去。然後你這個工程才能夠用60%,所以一定有40%會繼續存在那邊。"},{"start":499.921,"end":519.202,"text":"他會越來越多啦累積到現在這麼多所以這個部分應該從政府來解決我已經答應歷經業者我們全面的來檢視、調查到底有多少然後怎麼來消化這個東西正確做法不應該讓每一個工程那麼讓他買回去蹲在那邊"},{"start":521.084,"end":522.145,"text":"現在我想導正這個事情"},{"start":543.303,"end":566.716,"text":"所以我想我剛剛講過主委你已經注意到了只是說我覺得要加入產業的概念就是怎麼在產銷那透過什麼樣的方式可以把這個平台架起來以後就變成市場機制的問題但是這個階段因為累積歷史的這個工業啦越賺越多啦現在已經怕死人他已經不再是他不再是那個他是環境的問題啊"},{"start":567.717,"end":581.246,"text":"很多人都來陳請檢舉堆積爐山堆積爐山你去跟業者叫他們改善他們說他們也很希望看政府可不可以提供給他們土地所以在這種層次思考"},{"start":582.509,"end":603.758,"text":"循環經濟在這種程式思考這些所謂廢棄力量這個是對2050淨零碳牌最大的侮辱這是很好笑可笑的事情他確實有提出來說叫我們協助他找地方給他放出這個東西我個人看法這樣是不對的應該要把這些東西把它消耗掉這不會改過來了這做一半而已"},{"start":604.258,"end":609.424,"text":"因為我們在談經營攤牌其實這些問題都要解決這個其實就是我們達到2050經營攤牌其實首要工作就是把循環經濟做好沒有垃圾這個東西就看我們怎麼去規劃跟設計它是管理、設計、規劃的問題"},{"start":623.001,"end":623.121,"text":"主委﹖"}]}},{"id":"149242","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149242","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd04c49c7bafd26a43faa0e83a28976539f8ba9b0039caa7a6dda70f99e46909585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"11:13:55 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2026正式上路之後，我相信工程會針對相關的指引跟作業手冊都有許多探討，碳排部分其實在很早之前就已經是國家發展的重大方針，然而目前三件重大工程在工程會及行政院下還沒有做任何碳排的規劃，也希望在2026正式上路之後，工程會可以針對相關單位，尤其是國家重大工程都能夠進行碳指引跟碳排的部分，現在國家重大工程的部分是不是已經有納入碳權管理師？"],["吳主任委員澤成：跟委員報告，以公共工程來講，碳排只是其中的一部分，我們認為更重要的是對於公共工程的價值評估，在規劃的時候，哪一個方案最經濟，可以減量、減經費且可行，這方面做得到的話，碳排就會相對減少。"],["游委員顥：我相信主委是專家，所以工程的品質您一定非常清楚，就像國道6號橋梁當時是用碳能去做設計來做碳排跟減碳，本席期許未來工程會在相關的重大工程也能夠做好相關的碳排規劃，相信這對工程品質來講並不衝突。同時，在去年底開始，工程會也與一些相關的部會溝通，請教你們跟縣市政府有沒有進行碳排指引的宣導？"],["吳主任委員澤成：目前還在溝通當中、在推動當中。"],["游委員顥：你們有沒有跟各縣市政府、縣長共同溝通，或是工程會跟縣市政府開過幾次會？"],["吳主任委員澤成：還沒有。"],["游委員顥：沒關係，我們積極去推動，好不好？"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["游委員顥：接下來我要提一下南投的建設，2016年力行產業道路旁邊的力行國小，2016年到2024年的過程中其實經過了8次流標，規劃4年、施工4年到最後終於啟用，公共工程牛步化的原因，到底是因為缺工，還是原物料上漲，哪一個是最大原因？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我覺得原因應該是工程本身的設計施工可行性有沒有做到是關鍵。"],["游委員顥：這樣子請工程會再加把勁，好不好？"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["游委員顥：以目前全國的重大工程來講，缺工是主因，還是原物料是主要原因，哪一個排第一？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我覺得原物料上漲及缺工是一個趨勢，但是絕對不是一個工程本身的主要原因，既然這是個趨勢，我們就要去克服它，比方物料上漲，我們就要編足夠的費用給人家，人家才願意來標。"],["游委員顥：沒錯，從疫情這3年到現在，相關的原物料都至少漲了20%，我相信原物料是重要原因，我直接就教主委，在缺工的部分，目前將要引進印度勞工10萬大軍來臺，請問勞動部和工程會開過幾次會？"],["吳主任委員澤成：開會的幕僚作業應該是有，我個人沒有參加，因為它是我們幕僚的作業。"],["游委員顥：幕僚是不是可以……"],["吳主任委員澤成：據我瞭解，印度勞工是增加一個來源國，並沒有10萬勞工要引進，並沒有。"],["游委員顥：沒關係，因為我知道這個是看申請的數量。"],["吳主任委員澤成：對。"],["游委員顥：但是至少10萬大軍，大家現在都在討論，申請到10萬就是10萬，申請到10位就是10位，幕僚怎麼跟主委回報，目前跟相關的單位、勞動部討論過幾次？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們工程會有派員參加勞動部審查小組的委員，在那邊就有開會。"],["游委員顥：我跟主委補充一下，因為勞動部在報導上面提到跟經濟部、農業部、衛福部、內政部開會，就是沒提工程會，勞動部引進相關的外勞一定有許多的跨部會成員一起加入，但是針對如此重要的印度勞工要來臺灣的部分，工程會主管國家重大工程，我想請主委要求勞動部也一定要把營建業、營造業相關的重大工程需求提供，我希望勞動部一定要找工程會一起討論。我直接請教主委立場的問題，您是支持印度勞工來臺，還有支持來營造業的部分嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：它開會沒有找工程會可能是針對需求單位來談，至於引進勞工的來源，工程會基本上是支持。"],["游委員顥：營造業有沒有引進外勞的需求？"],["吳主任委員澤成：當然有。"],["游委員顥：勞動部怎麼沒有找？所以勞動部要檢討。"],["吳主任委員澤成：需要的單位是在那些部會，工程會只是協調單位。"],["游委員顥：協調單位也一樣會用到這些需求，本席在這裡同樣請主委也跟勞動部反映，因為我相信印度勞工來臺牽扯了各行各業，印度勞工來臺跟本勞一樣是有競爭關係，如何在本勞能夠就業，就如業務報告第17頁上面所寫，還能夠補充到外勞，我相信有主委的表態，更要有積極配套。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["游委員顥：謝謝。"],["吳主任委員澤成：謝謝。"],["主席（蔡委員其昌代）：接下來請李委員昆澤發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林沛祥","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","游顥","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳俊宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.03409375,"end":7.995968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.902843750000002,"end":12.214718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.450968750000001,"end":13.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.74534375,"end":19.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.875968750000002,"end":21.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.42409375,"end":41.070968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.10471875,"end":46.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.774718750000005,"end":54.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.27971875,"end":56.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.494718750000004,"end":62.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.87346875,"end":65.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.14721875000001,"end":68.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.38721875,"end":71.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.36159375,"end":73.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.31909375000001,"end":75.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.25971875,"end":79.00596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.70221875,"end":82.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.45284375,"end":82.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.63409375,"end":85.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.02596875,"end":87.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.07659375,"end":86.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.81471875000001,"end":96.47159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.72471875000001,"end":117.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.39221875000001,"end":119.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.74221875,"end":122.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.88096875000001,"end":129.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.63096875000002,"end":133.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.24221875,"end":185.70659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.34784375,"end":188.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.14909375000002,"end":194.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.56596875000002,"end":201.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.58596875,"end":203.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.08346875,"end":207.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.13784375,"end":207.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.82971875,"end":209.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.70284375,"end":210.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.98971875,"end":211.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.20034375,"end":238.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.35221875000002,"end":249.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.27034375000002,"end"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勞動部的那個審查小組的委員那在那邊就有開會好那我跟主委就是補充一下就是因為勞動部啊他其實他在報導上面他提到了他跟經濟部、農業部、衛福部、內政部開會他就是媒體工程會"},{"start":413.94,"end":432.711,"text":"所以本身來講相信勞動部相關的引進外勞一定有跨部會許多的成員一起加入但是在針對如此重要的印度勞工他要來台灣的這個部分工程會主管是國家重大工程我想請這個主委能夠要求"},{"start":433.291,"end":435.173,"text":"您是支持印度勞工來台還來支持營造業的部分嗎"},{"start":456.391,"end":472.324,"text":"他開會沒有找工程會可能是針對需求單位再來談那至於引進勞工的來源那麼工程會基本上是支持那我問一下那個營造業有沒有引進外勞的需求當然有那勞動部怎麼沒有找"},{"start":474.727,"end":490.418,"text":"所以說勞動部要檢討他需要單位是在那些部會工程會主是協調單位我跟你講協調單位也一樣會有用到這些需求那本期在這裡就同樣就是請我們的主委那也跟勞動部反映因為"},{"start":491.178,"end":491.198,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149240","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149240","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd0ae36045e7e602ebf012038cf3c9e62ff8ba9b0039caa7a671cc9cb49be985c85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:19:53 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分的話未來是也許是可以加強不過這變成說對廠商的要有這樣一致性的要求"},{"start":216.78,"end":243.678,"text":"對,應該是要通報,但是他等於說把他私了這個處理是不太恰當的我們會再重申可能是沒有通報的話可能會有一定的責任是,我們了解各個專業之間都會有同儕壓力以食安為例,如果他上下有這個關係的話未來如何能夠建構好這樣的市井機制"},{"start":246.3,"end":272.584,"text":"本席認為非常非常重要這個已經是在食安五環裡面還要再加強的部分這是第一個問題那第二個問題就是邊境查驗剛剛已經看到非常非常多的這些委員有發表的高見那我們看到這個數據就是112年的確有出現22批已經不合格的批數所以如果有更好的滾動檢驗的強度跟密度"},{"start":273.304,"end":301.317,"text":"理論上就可以減少這樣的風險發生那其實剛剛昭惠有提到我們的人力真的是非常非常的不夠所以相信通過這次的事件以後也期待未來在編類預算或者是各方面應該國會這邊會努力的來加強這方面的要求那也希望能夠提供適當的人力出來讓這個處理可以更完整"},{"start":301.897,"end":324.024,"text":"不過我比較好奇的就是通常這個進口商或者是廠商他們會進這些進來出現違規的這個食品添加物應該是有它的價格上的問題意思就是說如果同一批類似的產品他們要進來一定有一定的"},{"start":325.306,"end":325.767,"text":"市場機制的價格．"},{"start":340.051,"end":366.327,"text":"有可能產生哪一些的方式來瞭解當這個價錢跟市場機制是很不合理的改變的時候我們有沒有市井的機制跟委員報告這一個部分從價格上面可能會看不出來因為他以A代B以違規的來取代是合法的他不會跟你講也不見得會反映在售價上面報價上面"},{"start":368.316,"end":390.495,"text":"因為這樣一趟比較多啦用合格的也許他的成本10塊嘛用不合格的成本降到7塊他又賺了這3塊他不會即時跟你報說我成本降了3塊,不會所以他就會獲得那3塊錢的包吏所以大概從價格上面要去做管制大概有他的困難"},{"start":391.761,"end":401.342,"text":"瞭解,所以的確有它執行上的困難好,那往下我們可以看我們也可以瞭解再往下看"},{"start":403.007,"end":423.603,"text":"食安問題真的是很嚴重尤其我們也了解中國的食安意識相對不足這是我們可以從各方面來了解因為包括在幾年前就有這個三聚千安的事件導致很多小朋友得到這個很不好的結果所以一個建議"},{"start":424.804,"end":439.391,"text":"我們有沒有可能去標示產地尤其是這些高風險的國家進到台灣來它的添加物如果會頻繁的出現在這個食品上面的話那對於已經出現過好幾次的這種"},{"start":445.254,"end":458.893,"text":"對食安造成問題的這些添加物我們能不能夠也同時要求要標示產地資訊的公開保障國人的食安安全這個可以提供我們民眾更多的這個資訊安全的這些保障"},{"start":459.813,"end":480.431,"text":"根據食安法的規定,不管是產品進來都必須標示製造果,包括添加物的部分其實也是要的,只是在技術上可能有太多困難"},{"start":481.272,"end":503.961,"text":"比方說現在是這一次的事件一瓶辣椒粉你可以去標示說這辣椒粉的原產果是在中國這沒有問題但是辣椒粉所添加的色素要另外再去標示說這個色素的來源果是多少那恐怕在那小小的一瓶辣椒粉的標示的"},{"start":504.811,"end":507.755,"text":"最後一個問題就是我不知道我們是不是算食品大國?"},{"start":521.972,"end":535.694,"text":"我們即將邁向健康大國可是食品安全真的是除了對我們國民有重大影響以外那我們也知道這一批產品已經外送到外銷到馬來西亞"},{"start":537.156,"end":557.287,"text":"那身為這個全球的議員臺灣如果出現了這些不健康對民眾有傷害或者是會影響到健康的食品那如果賣到其他國家我們目前有什麼機制可以去示警去讓其他國家也了解的同時我們有沒有什麼回收機制"},{"start":559.407,"end":585.924,"text":"這部分的話應該是說我們如果真正有外銷出去的應該會通知那個輸入口那邊的管理的機關應該會有一個通報的一個機制是那這部分如果有相關通報或直接回收的話也希望能夠公告給全民的民眾可以知道我們目前所做的努力以上謝謝"},{"start":589.193,"end":590.358,"text":"謝謝王正旭委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"149239","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149239","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd14825e2fd383ab52baff13691fd5102bf8ba9b0039caa7a646d48b526846a67f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"11:14:49 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11:27:38","影片長度":"00:12:49","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":769,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:27:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:14:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":613,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時14分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長您好，謝謝。我想這幾天大家都非常關心普特融合，尤其最近又發生這樣一個案例，其實就我所知道，我個人看到這樣的影片，我覺得當時那個老師這樣的回應已經是盡力了、很得宜，所以我覺得他算是已經很努力在維持現場的狀況。我想融合教育是一個大方向，也是一個我們既有的政策，但是部長，您這邊有掌握到類似這樣一個中重度情緒障礙特教生的人數大概有多少？你有掌握嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，詳細的數據應該是三千多位。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。"],["潘部長文忠：署長這邊給我的數據大概是三千多位。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係、沒關係，就是大概，我們會後都可以再討論更精準的數字。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但我想針對這樣一個可能會導致教學現場產生問題的狀況，不只是特教生的權益我們一定會維護，一般生他們能不能持續有更穩定的上課過程，這也是我們要關注的，所以在上一次你們有提到特教法的修法，要提供113年到116年總共有1,600位的……"],["潘部長文忠：那是專任的特教助理員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：專任特教助理員，每年大概有400位分散到全國，一個縣市分到幾位？這個部分的數量，你覺得夠嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，專任在過去幾乎是很少的人數，過去的縣市或學校都是以部分時間為主。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["潘部長文忠：這次當然是雙軌，尤其是專任這部分，因為委員一定聽過很多家長有這個心聲。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是。"],["潘部長文忠：有時候特教的孩子在適應習慣上，如果一直給他不同的人，他們是很辛苦的，所以在這次檢討裡面才會說需要有一些……尤其是更特殊需要照顧的孩子，如果有一個專任助理員，對於調適這方面會來得更好，但時數這部分還是會擴充，所以這一次一方面讓專任更多，再來部分時數還是要多，因為過往他們認為這是不夠的，如果以這一次的計畫，臺中的部分大概有220位。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我想每個委員都很關心，包括特教員的薪資、人數，其實這部分都值得我們再深入探討，沒關係，我大概先這樣問，因為今天時間有限。","另外想再詢問一下，2月下旬所發生的亞洲盃男籃集訓事件，其中一個爭議是保險的部分。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：目前體育署擬組保險國家隊，目前辦理的狀況如何？還需要多少的時間？"],["潘部長文忠：這部分我跟委員報告，確實劉錚隊長在這一次事件中，讓我們對有關籃球國家代表隊好多的制度做了一些瞭解跟改變，這當中有關保險這部分確實我也請署長親自跟協會還有球員工會做瞭解，這方面目前已經有方向確定，就是會比照我們的棒球……"],["羅委員廷瑋：有沒有一個期程？"],["潘部長文忠：因為棒球還是比較穩定，現在已經跟幾個產險公司來做努力，也拜託金管會跟我們一起來協力，所以在下一次組隊時，我現在講的是籃球這部分。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["潘部長文忠：之前我們希望把所發現的幾項問題能夠做處理，一個就是組訓的時間建議用比較長的時間，不是三個禮拜而且球員又到不齊，第二個就是保險，第三個就是規劃外籍優秀球員的加入，這三個問題目前由體育署鄭署長積極在處理，而下一個籃球的組隊應該會在11月前，所以我們會以這個時間做為一個努力的目標。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想發生這樣的事件，國人都非常關注，我希望教育部一定要特別重視，能夠趕緊在期限內把它完成。這個部分我們希望能表達一下。"],["潘部長文忠：我們會朝這個目標來努力，因為確實國家支持國家隊的選手本來就是理所當然，應該要做。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們一起來關注體育。","另一個部分我想跟你探討，教育是百年大計，窮不能窮教育，我覺得孩子的未來與天賦不能因為貧困而被埋沒，世界上沒有富人的孩子一定聰明，窮人的孩子一定愚蠢。請問一下，您知道王建煊部長嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：王部長，我知道。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對不起，他擔任過財政部部長、立法委員。"],["潘部長文忠：對啊！"],["羅委員廷瑋：他曾經在民間推出一個撿回珍珠計畫，您知道嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：哪一個？"],["羅委員廷瑋：他在民間推出過一個撿回珍珠計畫。"],["潘部長文忠：我知道王部長很積極在做，只是他的計畫名稱我沒那麼熟悉。"],["羅委員廷瑋：跟您分享一下，他就是補助貧困的學生繼續學業，每位學生高中三年的學費、住宿費由學校負擔，愛心人士給予每位學生三年的生活補助，這個部分我想跟你帶到的是臺灣有沒有類似這樣子的計畫？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，民間有這樣的善心，包含王部長去認養以及相關他們認為有需要的這些措施，確實有很多，而政府這邊我也跟委員報告，因為偏鄉弱勢的孩子一直也是我們努力協助的重點，所以當時為什麼會設置偏鄉學校發展條例，也就是說因為確實是資源不夠，對個別事項上，我也跟委員報告，像我們執行夜光天使方案或執行午餐補助，委員知道，午餐補助一年大概是用21億的經費來協助這些困難學生，還有一個就是學習弱勢，就是他的課業有時候跟不上，這方面政府會做不同方式的因應，不會只鎖住單一類型的學生。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，其實本席是要和你提夜光天使點燈計畫啦！"],["潘部長文忠：是，請委員指教。"],["羅委員廷瑋：目前辦理狀況如何？有沒有遇到困境？您知道嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，當時夜光天使計畫是鎖定12歲以下的孩子，例如單親，因為隔代教養的部分還好，可能還有阿公阿媽可以照顧，現在怕的是爸爸或媽媽忙於工作，小孩子只能單獨回家。"],["羅委員廷瑋：本席先點出問題，請您聽聽看。關於夜光天使點燈計畫，本席非常支持，寒暑假時是否能同樣對這些孩童提供服務？平常放學在家沒有人照顧的孩童，寒暑假也不可能全天候有人照顧，是不是有這樣的計畫可以比照辦理？本席建議提一個試辦計畫，可以在臺中試行，您覺得怎麼樣？就是寒暑假的時候。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，如果要再試推，我們可以研議。但是也要向委員報告，就像我剛才說的，政府會比較傾向用幾種措施因應不同的需求，像暑假期間，例如本來就有的夏日樂學方案，暑假期間就可以幫助到孩童，只是可能沒有辦法如委員所說的全天候，但是這樣暑假時的服務就不會是空白的，我們會有類似這樣的計畫。如果要往下延伸，提供比較長時間的服務，這可能真的要試辦，因為暑假的時間的確滿長的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：另外，夜光天使點燈計畫有沒有可能擴展到國中？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這就是我剛才提到的，它從97年開始推動，那時我就在教育部服務，所以我也了解當時為什麼會鎖定12歲以下，因為小小孩真的需要多一些照顧，如果大人不在家，單獨把孩童放在家裡，這樣不太好。但是我們也一直在想，居家服務的部分是否就以12歲為分界？像國中生大概就超過這個界線，如果以法規來說，兒少法就是以12歲為分界，所以……"],["羅委員廷瑋：本席建議，希望有機會能夠朝擴展到國中規劃，因為……"],["潘部長文忠：這就是我向委員報告的，為什麼我們分成不同面向處理，例如他是因為吃飯的問題，或者課業需要協助的問題，我們有幾種措施可以幫助這些有需要的孩子。如果是高國中以上的孩子，因為他們算是比較大的孩子，如果是因為用餐或其他問題，我們是有一些扶助的機制，至於是否套用夜光天使的計畫，這部分我們還要再討論。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這部分本席想和你分享一下，例如雲林縣就擴展到國中，本席非常支持這樣的計畫，也認為一定要力推，教育部應該把資源放在這邊，而不是只放一小部分，只針對12歲以下。本席覺得國中生下課的時候如果沒有地方去，更有可能被有心人士吸收，造成身心發展或安全等方面的疑慮，這部分是我們可以去重視的議題，所以本席特別提出來和您分享。"],["潘部長文忠：好的，謝謝委員這麼關切，如果可行，我們是不是從部分地區開始試行？因為現在……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以本席想向部長爭取，如果要試辦的話，臺中是否有這個機會？"],["潘部長文忠：我們現在有各種協助機制，夜光天使計畫是從孩子的需求出發，等於是比較完整的處理。至於國中這一塊，是不是讓我們再盤點？之後如委員所說由部分縣市試行。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好的。"],["潘部長文忠：如果是從部分縣市推行，我比較建議從一些有特別需求的學校先試，因為我覺得累積經驗滿重要的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好的。有機會的話，本席爭取由臺中先行試辦。另外想向你提問，關於公私立高中職弱勢學生納入營養午餐的補助範疇，依據中央補助地方政府的營養午餐支用要點，目前各縣市政府辦理弱勢學生的營養午餐，僅限於公立的國民中小學，還有完全中學的國中部。","部長，112學年度第2學期開始，只要具有中華民國國民身分，就讀高級中等學校均不必繳納學費，考量營養午餐對孩童身心發展的重要性，因為這對學生也很重要，是不是有這個機會納入？就是本席剛才提到的，公私立高中職弱勢學生納入營養午餐的補助範疇，是否也能夠考量？"],["潘部長文忠：如果是有關弱勢學生餐費的部分，我們會予以審酌，目前有些部分確實有納入，但不是全面。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你們可以評估看看嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我們來評估一下，因為離島等等是有的。委員，大家最近都在關心午餐專法，只是高中職的用餐型態真的很多元，委員應該也知道，這部分和國中小的孩子不太一樣。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是的。"],["潘部長文忠：如果是對弱勢孩子的協助，我們來做一個評估，但如果是整體的部分，因為高中有好多學校比較像大學的型態……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。可是就像本席剛才說的，公私立的高中職都不用繳納學費了，營養午餐補助納入弱勢學子的部分，我們是可以進行評估的，會後我們再做深入探討。"],["潘部長文忠：好的。委員，這部分我們可能要做一個比較整體的評估。"],["羅委員廷瑋：剩三十幾秒的質詢時間，本席想和您分享一下，因為本席擔任過議員，臺中市議會審核教育局的預算時發現，每年編列將近1,000萬元預算補助更換孩童的課桌椅，全部換完需要3億元，大概要三十幾年才能更換全部的課桌椅，教育部是否能夠關心臺中市課桌椅換置的問題？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，以教育部的立場來說，我們當然是和縣市共同努力，也會予以協助。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是預算有限。"],["潘部長文忠：對。但是針對重點的部分，例如老舊校舍更新、廁所、操場，委員在地方服務過，你應該也知道，這幾年教育部用了相當大的資源去協助這部分，至於更細微的部分，可能要再討論，我也擔心……"],["羅委員廷瑋：本席知道。最後一句話，本席還是要點出問題……"],["潘部長文忠：和安全攸關的，我們會放在第一優先啦！"],["羅委員廷瑋：每年1,000萬元，需要30年才能更換全部的課桌椅。本席希望教育部能夠重視這樣的問題，協助臺中市，因為地方政府的財政真的有限，好不好？謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：好的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝部長，謝謝委員。","請陳委員秀寳發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","林倩綺","林宜瑾","吳春城","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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有請部長我想這幾天大家都非常關心我們普特融合尤其又最近發生了這樣子的一個案例那我想其實就我所知道啦我個人看到這樣的影片我覺得當時那個老師這樣子的一個回應狀況是已經盡力的很得宜"},{"start":32.194,"end":50.248,"text":"所以我覺得他這樣子算是已經很努力的在維持現場的一個狀況那我想融合教育是一個大方向也是一個我們既有的一個政策但是我想部長您這邊有掌握到我們類似這樣子的一個中重度的一個情緒障礙特教生他的掌握人數大概有多少你有掌握嗎"},{"start":51.605,"end":76.649,"text":"委員,詳細的數據應該是3000多位。好。書長這邊給我,他們有數據啦。大概3000多位。沒關係沒關係。就大概我們會後都可以再討論更精準的一個數字。但我想針對這樣子的一個可能會有可能會導致現場的教學產生問題。那我想不只是特教生的一個權益我們一定會維護。那一般生他們能不能持續在更穩定的有這樣子一個上課的一個過程。"},{"start":76.929,"end":97.991,"text":"我覺得這也是我們要關注的所以在上一次你們有提到特效法的修法要提供這樣子113年到116年總共有1600位的那是專任的特效助理員那每年大概有400位分散到全國那一個縣市分到幾位這個部分數量你覺得夠嗎"},{"start":99.288,"end":102.491,"text":"委員這個專任是過去幾乎是很少的人數啦過去縣市或學校都是以部分時間為主那這一次當然雙軌尤其是專任的這部因為委員一定聽過有很多家長有這個心聲"},{"start":114.44,"end":114.56,"text":"臺中的部分"},{"start":144.643,"end":172.588,"text":"大概有220位如果以這次的計劃我想每個委員都很關心包括特教員他們的一個薪資﹑人數其實這個部分都值得我們再深深的探討那沒關係我先大概先這樣問因為今天時間有限另外想再詢問一下就是2月下旬所發生的亞洲杯藍藍集訓的一個事件其中一個爭議是保險的一個部分那目前體育署你組保險國家隊目前辦理的狀況如何還需要多少的時間"},{"start":174.135,"end":179.681,"text":"這部分我跟委員報告,確實從這一次我們劉征隊長他在這一次的話讓我們對有關籃球國家代表隊有好多的這個制度有做了一些瞭解跟做改變那這當中有關保險的這部分確實我也請署長親自的跟協會還有球員的工會做瞭解"},{"start":198.319,"end":228.319,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":228.739,"end":228.819,"text":"主隊會在11月前．"},{"start":250.472,"end":251.793,"text":"我們會朝這目標來努力,因為這個確實國家支持國家的選手,國家隊的選手本來就理所當然,應該要做報告。"},{"start":270.544,"end":270.885,"text":"王健宣部長"},{"start":289.603,"end":309.557,"text":"王部長我知道對不起他曾經在民間推出一個撿回珍珠計畫你知道嗎哪一個民間推出過一個撿回珍珠計畫撿回珍珠計畫我知道王部長很積極只是他計畫名稱我沒那麼熟悉他就是補助貧困的學生繼續學業"},{"start":310.558,"end":322.804,"text":"每位學生高中三年的學費住宿費由學校負擔愛心人士給予每位學生三年的生活補助我想這個部分我想跟你帶到的是我想台灣有沒有類似這樣子的一個計畫"},{"start":324.35,"end":329.072,"text":"跟委員報告我想民間有這樣的善心幫王部長這樣去認養相關他們認為有需要的這些措施我想確實有機會那政府這邊大概我也跟委員報告"},{"start":340.675,"end":340.695,"text":"﹚羅廷瑋"},{"start":357.428,"end":386.181,"text":"或執行午餐不足,午餐不足一年,委員知道大概是用21億的經費來協助這些困難的那還有一個就是學習弱勢就是說他課業有時候跟不上的這一方面這個政府大概是會用不同面向大概比較不會說所助單一的學生是,部長沒關係那其實就是要跟你帶到夜光天使的計畫是,委員請指教我想目前辦理的狀況我覺得有沒有什麼困境您大概知道嗎"},{"start":387.234,"end":404.563,"text":"因為當時《夜光天使》是鎖定在12歲以下的孩子因為12歲以下 依我們依法萬一爸爸媽媽比如單親 隔代下永還好可能阿公阿嬤還有照顧現在怕的是爸爸媽媽或爸爸媽媽忙於工作根本孩子就單獨回家"},{"start":404.923,"end":406.523,"text":"我想弄個事辦計畫在台中試行您覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":434.009,"end":458.357,"text":"委員這個如果要再試推我們可以來研議但是我跟委員報告因為現在我剛才跟你們說政府會比較用幾種措施應應不同的需求像暑假期間除了我們本來就有那個叫夏日樂學的方案就是在幫助說你可以在暑假只是他可能沒有辦法委員說他是全天候但是暑假就不讓他空白"},{"start":458.797,"end":461.179,"text":"另外有沒有可能吸引夜光天使點燈專案計畫能夠擴展到國中?"},{"start":475.485,"end":503.983,"text":"這個就是我剛才為什麼說因為他從97年開始推那時候我在部裡頭服務也瞭解當時為什麼會鎖定12歲以下因為這個小小孩真的需要多一些包含照顧這件事因為沒有大人在家把他放在家這個也怪但是12歲一直也是我們在想說孩子可能對於居家因為現在你說國中大概就超過這個我們如果用法規來講偶像法大概是以12歲"},{"start":504.844,"end":525.227,"text":"我的建議是希望有機會可以擴展到國中來規劃那個就是我跟委員報告就是說為什麼我說我們用不同的比如說他是因為吃飯的問題他是課業要協助的問題我們有幾種措施事實上在幫助這些有需要的孩子如果高國中以上的孩子甚至比較大的孩子"},{"start":525.968,"end":526.028,"text":"稍後再討論"},{"start":553.533,"end":554.154,"text":"謝謝委員這個關切如果可行我們是不是從部分"},{"start":572.855,"end":595.688,"text":"所以我想跟你爭取,如果事辦的話是不是在台中有這個機會因為現在有各種的協助機制在那夜光天使是比較從一個孩子需求等於說比較完整的處理啦所以在國中的這一塊是不是讓我們再盤如果委員說有部分縣市當然部分縣市我也比較建議啦從有一些有特別需求的學校先來設因為我覺得累積這個建議還蠻重要"},{"start":598.089,"end":600.811,"text":"目前各縣市政府辦理弱勢學生的營養午餐僅限於公立的國民中小學還有完全中學的國中部"},{"start":624.89,"end":643.92,"text":"我想部長112學年度第二學期只要具有中華民國國民的高級中等學校均不必繳納學費考量營養午餐對於我們孩童的身心發展我覺得這也蠻重要的是不是有這個機會對於我剛剛所提到的公私立高中職弱勢學生納營養午餐這個補助範疇也能夠來做考量"},{"start":648.527,"end":673.155,"text":"委員報告如果是有關弱勢學生餐費的這部分這方面我們來做一個審酌目前確實有部分是納進來但倒不是全面你可以評估看看嗎我們來評估一下因為離島等等我們有但是這個跟委員如果因為我們大家大家都最近在關心午餐專法因為高中值的用餐型態真的很多元"},{"start":673.855,"end":690.057,"text":"委員大概也知道跟國中小的孩子不太一樣如果是在弱勢孩子的協助這方面我想我們來做一個評估但是如果屬於在整體性的這方面我想高中有好多學校比較像大學的那種形態"},{"start":690.638,"end":700.891,"text":"但是就像我剛剛所說的公司立了高中職都不用繳納學費了我想營養午餐有這個機會能夠納入弱勢學子的部分是我們可以來做一個評估的回後我們再做一個深度的看法另外剩30幾秒我想跟您分享一下因為我本身擔任過議員"},{"start":707.059,"end":726.854,"text":"我們台中市議會在審核教育局的預算的時候發現每年編列大概將近一千萬的預算來補助孩童的課桌椅那整個要換完大概要三億大概要三十幾年才能夠把整個課桌椅來把它做換那我想是不是教育部能夠關心課桌椅換製的一個問題在台中這個部分"},{"start":728.996,"end":754.046,"text":"委員這個當然以教育部都是跟縣市是共同在做協助預算有限那做重點上委員跟委員報告像老舊校舍更新、廁所、操場委員在地方府委大概知道這幾年教育部是用相當大的資源去協助至於到更細微的這方面可能要討論我也擔心說我知道我最後一句但是我還是點出問題安全有關我們第一優先"},{"start":755.026,"end":755.046,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149238","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149238","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddf92c7aa1a6ec57e12dd7be9832461c05f8ba9b0039caa7a6ee8a114a4c4694a15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:07:05 - 11:20:38","影片長度":"00:13:33","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":813,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:20:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:07:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":555,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時7分）謝謝主席，有請我們司法院，謝謝我們秘書長還有司法院的同仁，大家早安，我是吳思瑤，我是司法及法制委員會的新生，我會努力學習，如果思瑤有發言或是內容有不正確的地方，也歡迎大家可以隨時地指正我，我們互相尊重。我今天會針對國民法官上路的成效來虛心檢討，剛剛也很多委員垂詢過，還有司法人員的離職潮是5年新高，我們的改善方案在哪裡，我會就教於各位。但是進入我的主題之前，我想司法院也是我們憲法運作的解釋機關，從大法官釋憲到憲法法庭的運作，我想問一下秘書長，行政、立法之間質詢是上對下的關係嗎？請就憲法的專業來回答這個問題。"],["吳秘書長三龍：那一天我是看……"],["吳委員思瑤：您可以大聲一點。"],["吳秘書長三龍：那一天我是看會上主席是有提到這個是行政院跟立法院之間的關係。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以呢？再具體一點，質詢是上對下的關係嗎？就您的憲法素養，您是司法院的秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：應該是兩院之間如何各本於職權。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，依據我們非常多的大法官釋憲都告訴了我們，check and balance，憲法機關之間是權力分立、平等相維的，我想在新國會上路的時候，我們作為憲法的解釋機關也應當來捍衛這樣子的權力分立的重要原則跟價值。","第二個問題，也是今天、也正在此時此刻，我剛剛在隔壁的內政委員會，我赫然發現有在野黨委員原本有提出一個臨時提案，但目前是暫擱，但是也是有憲法方面是否合宜的問題想就教於您，針對金廈海域的意外事故，有在野黨的委員在立法院提案要成立調閱專案小組，也就是要以立法權來介入、來進行一個調閱的偵辦，那我想就教於我們秘書長或者是我們憲法法院書記廳楊廳長，您是這方面的專業，針對任何一個檢方偵辦中的案件，立法院得以來成立調閱專案小組，用立法權來介入司法檢調的權限嗎？這應該是簡單的ABC問題，請秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：關於立法院的調查權，之前在大法官釋字第585號、第325號還有第613號、第633號、第729號都有做一些說明。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以回應我的問題，今天這個金門意外事件非常不幸，我們當然希望協助釐清真相，立法委員本於職責提出海巡弟兄的裝備要提升或是在執法過程中的一些協力、精進，這當然是立法委員監督的範圍跟事項，但如果要對偵辦中的案件成立調閱小組，到底可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我剛剛有向委員說明，關於國會調查權部分，先前有這些解釋……"],["吳委員思瑤：有非常多的解釋，但我認為非常需要在司法及法制委員會就憲法的運作原則，透過司法院的專業人員、秘書長還有廳長釐清，我們必須把憲政運作的原則搞清楚，否則國會會鬧了笑話。釋字第729號非常清楚地解釋檢察機關代表國家進行犯罪之偵查與追溯，基於權力分立與制衡原則，且為保障檢察機關獨立行使職權，對於偵查中之案件，立法院自不得向其調閱相關卷證。換言之，廳長您點頭嘛？所以你要補充說明釋字第729號的精神，如果立法院通過這樣的臨時提案要成立一個調閱小組，針對檢調在偵辦中的案件，Yes or No？可以不可以？"],["楊廳長皓清：跟委員說明，根據釋字第729號，就如同剛剛委員所說明的，它在解釋文裡面明文記載，立法院向檢察機關調閱偵查中的案件部分是不能向其調閱卷證，如果是調閱已偵查終結而不起訴或是未經起訴而以其他方式結案的卷證，也有設定相關的範圍，以上。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝，廳長的說明非常清楚。立法院僅能在制度、預算、法律等事項對檢察機關進行通案監督，應無介入個案調閱、偵查卷證之餘地，這是釋字第729號的內容。內政委員會的這個提案目前應當是沒有處理，我也希望在野黨委員聽到今天司法院秘書長還有憲法法庭的廳長再次為我們清楚說明大法官釋字第729號的基本精神，應當要懸崖勒馬。我們不樂見任何政治力介入司法案件，我們也不希望粗糙的國會特偵組就這樣出現了嗎？違憲非常清楚，謝謝您的回應，我一定要在這裡利用我的質詢時間再次釐清嚴肅的憲法分立，我們應當遵守原則，謝謝您的回答。","我們來看看我的第2頁質詢，我手上拿的是台北書展，我去看了親子天下的攤位，我跟陳建仁院長一起去的，這一本「小大人的公民素養課」非常好，裡頭針對最新的國民法官制度提供學生關於公民素養的科普，很清楚地為我們釐清國民法官就是為了拉近、讓公民有平等參與的權利，我們去除過去法官高高在上，我們希望打造親近、友善，讓公民也可以成為司法審判的協力者，這是非常好的，你們可以一起來推推這本書。我們的國民法官法上路，在審查法案時我也都參與了，軟體部分就是修法，硬體部分我們來檢視，我們跟設計研究院攜手合作打造國民法官的法庭設計，我跟秘書長說明，其實台灣設計研究院是吳思瑤、本席努力催生的，我希望透過Design Thinking讓任何公部門的空間規劃能有使用者的思維，可以達到我們要的政策目的。","我們透過設計導入使用者思維，讓國民法官法庭重新 redesign，目前已經改造21家地方法院、28間國民法官的法庭，這是before，改造前的高雄地方法院、南投地方法院、新北地方法院，就是高高在上、燈光又不明亮，感覺很遙遠，人民對於司法的近用完全被剝奪或是讓人覺得有相當高的距離感，那after呢？成功改造之後我們看到一個公開透明的空間、減少壓迫感的空間，而且是共融式的，所有的身心障礙者也可以使用無礙，更方便各地徵詢來的國民法官都有平等的權利來協助新的司法審判制度，使用過後，現在的成效怎麼樣？秘書長，你們覺得這樣的硬體導入有沒有助於國民法官的新制上路？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個都有得到德國的那個……"],["吳委員思瑤：這得iF大獎或是……"],["吳秘書長三龍：設計大獎。"],["吳委員思瑤：對，得獎是額外的、是extra honor，對於使用者呢？"],["吳秘書長三龍：目前反應應該都不錯。"],["吳委員思瑤：應該都非常好！我們目前是28間改造完成，有下一階段的改造計畫嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：士林地院也在增設當中。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，所以第一階段完全就是針對國民法官的法庭設計嗎？還是有其他非國民法官的法庭也要啟動這個設計導入空間改造的新思維？"],["吳秘書長三龍：現在讓民眾有近用權，我們會朝這個方向有一些新的……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，因為時間有限，請您事後提供書面資料，有關下一階段的design thinking導入我們的司法制度，我會持續追蹤，基本上這個案子也是本席一路協助推動，我今天可以在司法及法制委員會就這部分來跟大家分享，我覺得非常光榮。我們的軟體修了法，硬體也提供相當的協力，但是國民法官法上路、國民法官法庭上路，剛剛前面幾位委員都檢視了它的執行成效，我也知道上週有邀請日本的專家來分享日本的刑事訴訟制度跟裁判員制度給我們，我手上的資料原定2023年要收300件，但實際收件是108件，審結只有16件、只有14.8%，換言之，它的收件數也好，或是審結數都偏低。剛剛有幾位委員提到國民法官的報到率不到一半，因為這是一個新制度，大家要去徵詢國民法官，包括在審理的過程也需要上課，是一個需要更多協力的角色，但是這樣的審結、收件比例，你們的檢討如何？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為一開始大家都比較慎重……"],["吳委員思瑤：開始1年囉！"],["吳秘書長三龍：也會互相觀摩，一開始大家求平穩，看如何來進行……"],["吳委員思瑤：我們的辯護量能不足，國民法官的報到率不高，這都是橫在眼前的挑戰，包括鍾佳濱召委剛剛也提出來，你們是幾月份會提出執行1年的檢討報告？"],["李廳長釱任：我們最終的年度總結報告在今年9月份會提出來，也順便回應委員剛剛所關注的問題，為什麼審結案件只有16件？我可以跟委員報告一下，我們事實上也做過分析，因為112年前半年的起訴案件量真的比較少，到7月之後，檢察官慎重起訴、詳細偵查，起訴量慢慢上來，經過一個準備程序的期間，再進到選任程序、最後進到審理程序，所以大部分都集中在下半年才出現。目前收案量已經到22件，以相關的案件量成長跟犯罪數來講，應該是恢復到一般的正常水準，沒有起訴遞延的問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們就是要持續地精進。"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：其實，日本的制度2009年上路之後，他們也是花了好幾年，國民的滿意度才提升，他們甚至花了5年，我做過調查。所以我沒有苛責現在馬上就要達標，但是在軟硬體的部分，國會都給予支持，軟體上，我們的修法、配套、子法都完成了；在硬體部分，設計研究院也協助了、編列了預算，希望在軟硬體到位之後，國民法官的相關執行要能達到我們預期設定的目標，我們持續監督。","至於後面的主題，我以後再找機會就教大家。辛苦了！謝謝。"],["吳秘書長三龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：現在處理臨時提案，臨時提案總共有2案，麻煩請宣讀。","一、","案由：有鑑於本院審查107年度中央政府總預算案有關司法院主管預算部分曾作有決議：「……，無須審查資力之扶助案件中，屢有具相當資力者在扶助之列，因欠缺排富條款而濫用扶助機制，衍生資源錯置之批評，使政府有限資源未能合理運用，可能排擠真正經濟弱勢者之需求，加重政府財政負擔。……。」然針對法扶提供扶助案件中，對於從104年到111年的申請法扶的案件數中，顯示知道「無須審查資力准予扶助案件」的比例，平均每年占62.5%，且呈現成長之趨勢，然在無須審查資力案件中，因「重罪強制辯護」、甚至是「低中收入戶」中之申請案，不乏出現有權有勢申請人，屢屢出現於社會新聞上，造成民眾對於法扶觀感不佳，並認為政府有浪費公帑之嫌，為避免違背法扶以提供人民法律扶助，保障人民基本訴訟權利為宗旨，要求司法院於一個月內將申請法扶無須審查資力的適用及防弊措施提出書面檢討報告，並送至本院司法法制委員會之委員。","提案人：吳宗憲　　傅崐萁　　謝龍介　　羅智強　　林思銘","二、","案由：本院委員翁曉玲等人，有鑑於司法及法制會委員會會議室原改建目的係為有效區隔立法委員與媒體，以求更好之攝影品質，以作為委員會改建之實驗性場域，致使本委員會與其他立法院設置之委員會有別。惟改建後是否能達成上開目的，仍有疑義，故提議將司法及法制委員會之空間配置增加兩個質詢台。是否有當？敬請公決。","提案人：翁曉玲","連署人：謝龍介　　林思銘　　傅崐萁　　柯建銘　　吳宗憲　　"],["主席：請問就第1案有無提案委員要補充說明？","請鍾委員發言。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不好意思，對於提案委員這項提案，我非常支持，但我在這裡注意到一點，也要提醒各位委員，在法律扶助法當中，從第一項到第四項主要是規範所謂的無資力者，也就是大家說的經濟弱勢者，但事實上法律扶助對象不限定屬於經濟弱勢者，也包括原住民、包括最輕本刑3年以上、包括剛才我們所說到的國民法官法當中這些因故意犯罪致死的，很多都會跑到法律扶助法的適用範圍，而這些當然都不會適用資力審查。我認為由於去年108件國法案還在檢討當中，也因為國法案接受法扶情況與其他不屬於免用資力審查案件顯然有別，1個月恐怕來不及，我剛才問過了嘛！他們到2月才公布第1份，到9月才會全部公布完，那麼是否可以給予3個月的時間，請司法院先就國法案當中受法律扶助的部分併入提案委員的這個部分，因為他們都是免受資力審查的，這樣的話，這個檢討會比較完整。請各位委員斟酌是否給予3個月的時間，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩機關就委員所提的臨時提案做回復。"],["吳秘書長三龍：假如能有3個月，會比較完整，所以建議把1個月調整為3個月。"],["主席：請問提案委員，改成3個月呢？"],["林委員思銘：佳濱委員，你的意思是否就是就國民法官法這部分也要改？文字是不是修正一下？"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以在文字上加入「考量到國法案當中的檢討內容尚未出爐，給予3個月時間，也充分將國法案當中接受法律扶助的部分併入說明」，這樣比較完整。"],["林委員思銘：就是把你剛才講的這幾段文字併入、列入吧？OK。"],["吳委員思瑤：但我要請教一下，時間上可以嗎？國法案的檢討報告要9月才出來，要是這裡押3個月……可以喔？我是確認一下。大家是希望完整，所以要給你們合理的時間。"],["高廳長玉舜：如果把國法案件併入的話，可能還要再考慮刑事廳那邊的國法評估進度，這是原因之一。第二個就是如果把國法案件併入的話，議案可能會更複雜化，我們本來估計，如果不是針對國法案件、沒有包含國法案件，就一般強制辯護案件來做的話，由於法扶是獨立的基金會，對於他們如何運作，司法院是負責監管部分，所以就原來的提案來說，我們就預估可能要將近3個月的時間比較完足。","另外，針對無資力部分，因為法扶法第十三條有關審資力部分有法定規定，在配合法定規定的狀況之下，其實我們在實務上有一些因應作為，但是因為立法院有這樣一個更精進的要求，所以就原來的提案可不可以給我們3個月的時間，讓我們做比較完整的處理？以上，謝謝。"],["主席：這樣就是麻煩機關做文字修正之後，提過來給我們，好嗎？"],["張主任秘書智為：他只要改3個月。"],["主席：只要改3個月嗎？那我們就期限的部分改成3個月，大家有沒有意見？（無）沒有意見，依照修正後的文字通過。","進行第2案。針對第2案，有沒有提案委員要補充說明？"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有。"],["主席：那總務處人員來了嗎？請問總務處周處長，你有沒有什麼要回復的？"],["周處長傑：報告主席、各位委員，如果司法及法制委員會作成決議，我們會照司法及法制委員會的決議辦理。但是因為現在是在會期中，我們建議若是要改，是否在會期中由我們研議、規劃，然後在休會時由我們來改？沒有問題，我們會配合。"],["主席：要拖那麼久喔？"],["周處長傑：因為在前面加兩個質詢台，就會沒有走道，空間不夠。"],["傅委員崐萁：加了怎麼會沒有走道呢？"],["主席：你有沒有辦法能夠馬上修改？搬質詢台過來沒有辦法嗎？"],["周處長傑：報告主席，搬質詢台來沒有問題，我們就是架在前面這兩個空間，但是會影響到委員的進出動線。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我覺得這不是很大的工程，但是不是能夠縮短？比如說在1週內或1月內先把未來的配置圖給委員看一下，如果委員覺得OK，增加兩個質詢台是可以的，那麼對於相關配置所需要的作業時間自然會給你嘛！但照現在你說的很複雜、要等到休會期間，大家一想就會質疑就兩個質詢台，有那麼困難嗎？當然你提到要有走道等等，的確也有這個可能，那是不是先規劃、限期規劃出來，委員會覺得OK之後，再看看需要多少作業時間，趕快辦理，好不好？"],["主席：這樣可以嗎？我們是認為要修改……"],["周處長傑：那可不可以給我們兩個禮拜時間？讓我們規劃，把……"],["主席：不，畫一個圖為什麼要兩個禮拜？"],["翁委員曉玲：1個禮拜吧！1個禮拜就可以了吧？需要這麼長的時間嗎？"],["主席：因為是放兩個質詢台啊！"],["周處長傑：好，那我們就1個禮拜內把圖面提出來，下禮拜提到委員會來給委員看，這樣OK嗎？"],["傅委員崐萁：下禮拜一以前啦！"],["翁委員曉玲：應該先送到委員會辦公室，讓我們先看吧！如果還需要做決議，那委員會上就可以決議了。"],["周處長傑：沒有問題。"],["主席：請龍介委員。"],["謝委員龍介：這是很簡單的事務，怎麼會搞成這樣？就是送備詢台跟質詢台來，在還沒有定案前，你要在休會期間改，那就去改，至於這個時候就先搬過來，然後用無線麥克風就可以進行質詢跟備詢嘛！如果你怕破壞現場或動線，那就等圖通過以後，到休會時間再改，但現在立刻就可以執行了嘛！"],["主席：麻煩你們直接放在那邊，就可以馬上開始做。至於你們要弄得多漂亮，等你們的圖送出來，我們再決定嘛！但是放兩個檯子，沒有任何問題吧？難度沒有啊！"],["周處長傑：沒問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：我做個提醒，司法及法制委員會是立法院第一個率先思考要改變成這樣的方式，當初一定有決定的理由。當然，有委員提出來還是習慣原來的方式，但這件事還是要好好規劃，我沒有反對的意思，而是它絕對不只是放兩個質詢台回去，還包括質詢台上要有委員可以播放PowerPoint投影片的螢幕、包括我們的背後都要有方便官員的裝置，讓官員在答詢時也看得到我們的PPT，這都是基本配備，不只是把兩個檯子搬回去，我只是要提醒。關於國會的問政素質，這些軟硬體的提升都要基於使用者思維，就像我剛才講的userside、design thinking，都要做到，好不好？否則要是搬了兩個質詢台回來，到時候委員卻發現不好用，你們又要被罵，所以還是要考量一下。"],["謝委員龍介：如果現在在這邊PowerPoint都能看了，那你站在那邊質詢也一樣啦！"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有啦，委員，我們質詢很有經驗啦！桌子上要有monitor，其實也方便大家。"],["謝委員龍介：放在那邊我也看得很清楚。"],["吳委員思瑤：我沒有反對意見，只是希望不要說改得很簡單，最後卻覺得不好用，我只是提醒。"],["傅委員崐萁：吳委員，謝謝。","第一個，你們現在出了這麼多新聞，你要怎麼處理？你要給我注意。第二個，委員會過去怎麼樣，我們尊重，但現在委員會做了決議，你就是配合，這麼簡單的事，你為什麼要故意在這裡讓委員大家有爭執？叫你擺兩張桌子要4、5個月？有這麼麻煩嗎？就這樣搬一張桌子，10公尺也要收費，是把立法委員當「盤子」嗎？我不需要你回答，我現在是告訴你，擺兩張桌子、把無線麥克風擺上去，讓這個委員會的立委質詢時基本上要有最卑微的尊嚴，就這麼簡單！","至於上面沒有monitor，所以在這個委員會，為什麼我們在這裡質詢沒有桌前monitor，竟然可以用這麼久？我們看主席要這樣看，看那邊要這樣看，連行政院院長到立法院備詢，都是跟立委面對面！所以叫你搬兩張桌子來，就這麼簡單，瞭解了嗎？"],["周處長傑：瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席，我可不可以一併把一些需求加以表達？因為既然委員都表達了。其實，這個委員會我也經常來，最大的困擾是在詢答過程中，我要從這邊離開時不知道從哪裡走，我從這裡走也會入鏡，我從那裡走還要先跟主席打個招呼，我們的助理要進來還必須匍匐前進，所以這個情況的確要改。如果誠如剛剛傅總召所說的，前面擺兩個質詢台，也請一併把席位分布與出入動線稍微規劃一下。不然這樣的實驗性質，其實我可以適應，最不能適應的只是怎麼進出，因為門口都在那裡啊！目前媒體報導區其實也還OK，如果前面加兩個質詢台，媒體所要的詢答畫面跟表情也都可以充分掌握，這點我理解媒體的需求，也應該滿足他們。","我希望主席在裁示時，能請他們把這些委員反映的意見一併考量，我現在的感覺就是出入不方便。以上。"],["主席：好。請總召。"],["傅委員崐萁：主席，你就直接裁示，第一個，分階段實施，1週內研究兩個桌子要怎麼弄，把它弄進來，這個先進行；第2階段是整個委員會怎麼改，那就第2階段再另外送，因為那是他所謂的會期結束才要處理。所以分兩階段來做，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：這樣好了，放，備詢台、質詢台這個部分，可不可以在1個禮拜內處理完畢？另外就是在大概兩個禮拜內，請你們把圖簡單地畫出來，這樣時間上來不來得及？"],["周處長傑：報告主席，我們照辦。"],["主席：謝謝。","這樣的話，臨時提案第2案照案通過。","接下來請陳俊宇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","翁曉玲","黃國昌","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","柯建銘","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鄭天財Sra 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各本於主權"},{"start":94.642,"end":115.449,"text":"依據我們非常多的大法官事件都告訴了我們check and balance 憲法機關之間是權力分立平等相為的我想在新國會上路的時候我們作為憲法的解釋機關也應當來捍衛這樣子的權力分立的重要的原則跟價值"},{"start":117.23,"end":134.663,"text":"第2個問題也是今天也正在此時此刻我剛剛在隔壁的內政委員會那我赫然發現有在野黨委員原本有提出一個臨時提案但目前是暫擱但是也是有憲法方面是否合宜的問題想就教於您"},{"start":137.205,"end":151.126,"text":"針對這個驚嚇海域的意外事故那有在野黨的委員在立法院提案要成立調閱專案小組也就是要有以立法權來介入來進行一個"},{"start":151.887,"end":151.907,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":166.544,"end":168.406,"text":"關於立法院的這個調查前"},{"start":185.186,"end":190.229,"text":"那之前在釋字,大法官釋字585號、325號還有613、633還有739號都有做一些說明"},{"start":201.937,"end":227.071,"text":"那所以回應我的問題如果說今天這個金門意外的事件非常不幸我們當然希望協助釐清真相立法委員本於職責來提出對於這個海巡弟兄的裝備要提升啦或是在執法過程當中的一些協力精進這當然是立法委員去監督的範圍跟事項但如果是要在偵辦中的案件來成立調閱小組到底可以嗎"},{"start":232.625,"end":251.725,"text":"因為我剛剛有向委員說明就是關於那個國會調查前這一部分先前有有非常多的解釋好我在這裡就因為我認為非常需要在我們司法法制委員會就憲法的運作原則非常清楚的"},{"start":252.265,"end":254.966,"text":"透過我們司法院的專業人員秘書長還有我們廳長的釐清我們必須把這個憲政運作的原則搞清楚否則國會會鬧了笑話"},{"start":265.475,"end":290.502,"text":"以釋字第729號非常清楚地解釋了檢查機關代表國家進行犯罪之偵查與追溯基於權力分立與制衡原則且為保障檢查機關獨立行使職權對於偵查中之案件立法院自不得向其調閱相關卷證換言之聽講您點頭嗎"},{"start":292.162,"end":293.203,"text":"根據釋字729號就如同剛剛委員所說明的"},{"start":314.998,"end":316.78,"text":"謝謝聽到您的說明所以非常清楚"},{"start":334.921,"end":359.947,"text":"立法院僅能在制度、預算、法律等事項對檢查機關進行通案監督應無介入各案調閱、偵查、卷證之餘地這個是我們729號的釋字內容我們內政委員會的這個提案目前應當是沒有處理我也希望在野黨的委員聽到我們今天透過司法院的秘書長還有我們憲法法庭的廳長"},{"start":362.648,"end":377.881,"text":"再一次為我們清楚說明大法官釋字729號基本的精神應當要懸崖勒馬我們不樂見任何的政治力來介入司法案件我們也不希望粗糙的國會特徵組就這樣出現了嗎"},{"start":381.903,"end":405.16,"text":"為現非常清楚謝謝您的回應我一定要在這裡利用我質詢的時間來再一次釐清這樣嚴肅的憲法分立我們應當遵守的原則謝謝您的回答好那我們來看看我的第二頁質詢我手上拿的是臺北書展我去看了親子天下這個攤位我跟陳建仁院長一起去的這個"},{"start":406.841,"end":430.776,"text":"小大人的公民素養課這一本非常好而裡頭呢針對我們最新的國民法官的制度也在這樣一個對於學生的公民素養的科普很清楚的為我們釐清了國民法官就是為了拉近讓公民有平等參與的權利我們去去除過去法官高高在上"},{"start":431.636,"end":452.658,"text":"我們希望打造親近友善讓公民也可以成為司法審判的協力者這是非常好的你們可以來一起推推這本書那我們的國民法官法上路我們在審查法案我也都參與了那軟硬體軟體就是修法硬體的部分我們來檢視下一頁"},{"start":455.376,"end":478.248,"text":"我們跟設計研究院攜手合作打造了國民法官的法庭設計我跟秘書長說明其實臺灣的設計研究院是吳思瑤本席努力催生的我希望能夠透過design thinking在任何的公部門的空間規劃能夠有使用者的思維可以達到我們要的一個政策目的我們透過設計導入"},{"start":480.249,"end":504.082,"text":"導入使用者思維能夠讓國民法官法庭重新redesign目前已經改造了21家地方法院28間國民法官的法庭這是before改造前的高雄地方法院南投地方法院新北地方法院就是高高在上燈光又不明亮感覺又很遙遠"},{"start":505.303,"end":507.968,"text":"人民對於司法的禁用是完全被剝奪或是他覺得有相當高的一個距離感"},{"start":512.881,"end":537.742,"text":"那after呢我們看下一頁成功改造之後我們看到了一個公開透明的空間減少壓迫感的空間而且是共融式的我們所有的身心障礙者也可以使用無礙更方便我們各地徵選來的國民法官都有平等的權利來協助我們新的司法審判的制度那使用過後現在成效怎麼樣"},{"start":538.752,"end":546.007,"text":"秘書長,你們覺得這樣一個硬體的導入有沒有有助於我們國民法官心智的上路?"},{"start":547.862,"end":553.963,"text":"目前的反應應該都非常好。我們目前是28間改造完成, 有下一階段要改造的計畫嗎?"},{"start":571.963,"end":575.144,"text":"司法院秘書長列席說明立法院第11屆第1會期司法院秘書長列席說明立法院第11屆第1會期"},{"start":591.684,"end":596.029,"text":"您稍後提供書面資料,我們下一個階段的design thinking導入我們的司法制度,我會持續追蹤。"},{"start":612.367,"end":612.507,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":632.626,"end":653.537,"text":"國民法官法庭上路我再佔用一點點時間不好意思剛剛前面幾位委員都檢視了他的執行成效我也知道就在上週我們也邀請了日本的專家來分享了日本的刑事訴訟制度跟他們裁判員制度分享給我們到我手上的資料是原定要2023年去年要修建300件"},{"start":654.918,"end":672.916,"text":"那實際的收件是108件但審結只有16件只有14.8%換言之他的收件數也好或是審結數都偏低那剛剛有幾位委員提到這個國民法官的報導率不到一半"},{"start":673.937,"end":673.957,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":694.804,"end":701.307,"text":"我們的辯護量能不足,國民法官的報導率不高,這都是橫在眼前的挑戰,包括我們眾嘉賓昭偉剛剛也提出來,你們是幾月份會提出一個執行一年的報告,檢討報告?"},{"start":723.178,"end":746.295,"text":"我們最終的年度的總結報告是在今年的9月份會提出來那順便回應委員剛剛所關注的問題就於為什麼審結案件只有16件那我可以跟我委員報告一下我們事實上也做過分析因為在前半年112年的前半年的起訴案件量是真的是比較少到了7月之後"},{"start":747.316,"end":772.443,"text":"檢察官慎重起訴是先詳細的偵查之後慢慢的起訴上來那經過一個準備程序的期間那真的進到選任程序在最後進到審理程序所以大部分都集中在下半年才出現那目前來講目前的收案量已經到22件了所以相關的案件量的成長跟犯罪數來講應該是回復到一般的正常水準沒有持那個起訴遞言的問題"},{"start":773.203,"end":787.859,"text":"我們就是持續的來精進其實就日本的制度2009上路之後他們也是花了好幾年公民的滿意度才提升他們甚至花了五年我做過調查所以我沒有苛責現在馬上就要達標"},{"start":788.9,"end":788.94,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"149237","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149237","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd33c1702cc1a64aa2f012038cf3c9e62ff8ba9b0039caa7a67d954539f198b0c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"11:06:30 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11:19:42","影片長度":"00:13:12","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院食品安全辦公室、衛生福利部部長、食品藥物管理署就「食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅事件處理之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":792,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:19:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:06:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":683,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時6分）謝謝召委，有請部長跟署長。"],["主席：好，請部長跟署長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。部長，我用最短的時間整理一個大事記，你看一下有什麼問題我們再來討論。第一個就是今（2024）年1月30日FDA公布邊境查驗結果，中國輸入臺灣的辣椒粉共二萬八千多公斤，驗出蘇丹色素3號，這沒有問題吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有。"],["劉委員建國：那你可以從這個大事記裡面再去看，講到蘇丹色素3號幾乎每天將近有一爆，因為我還有相關資料沒有納進去，包含有蝦味仙、海底撈，還有剛才召委拿的相關的一些零嘴食品等等等，還有調味料，如果要有更積極的作為，我想我這個大事記應該是放不下，而且會每天一爆至兩爆以上，我現在來對照你們報告裡面的第7頁，第7頁已經提到邊境全面逐批檢驗，你的逐批檢驗是從112年12月11日已採取100%逐批檢驗，然後檢驗核可後始得輸入，那你現在跟我講1月30號也是邊境檢驗查到了二萬多公斤的蘇丹紅色素3號，你要跟我們說明的是，它是在12月11日的100%逐批檢驗之前進來的？"],["薛部長瑞元：是，沒有錯。"],["劉委員建國：是不是這樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：但是反之，你不可能一個食品、一個添加物，馬上就100%逐批檢驗。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，沒有錯。"],["劉委員建國：應該之前先可能是50%，再往前推可能是30%，有查到不合格或是什麼樣的狀況，才會慢慢地調高逐批檢驗的成數，對不對？應該是這麼講。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：現在問題來了，如果照你這麼說，到了1月30日，然後100%的檢驗是去年的12月11號，足足有二個多月時間，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：二個多月嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：12月，大概1個月。"],["劉委員建國：12月11日嘛！我們算1個月嘛！1月30日算一個月，就是將近快2個月時間，對不對？那這中間你們的50%、30%有可能再往前推，可能是半年，大概是這樣的一個時間，通通沒有查到蘇丹色素3號，一直到1月30日才有辦法查到，我們的食安五環裡面講得非常清楚，你們開宗明義第一頁就講到，源頭控管，加強查驗，然後加重惡意黑心廠商的責任，我從這三個面向來跟你討論，第一個，源頭控管，我覺得這是有問題的；第二個，加強查驗，我覺得更有問題，我為什麼要這麼表達？因為你們自己在相關報告裡面也寫了很多，如AI的大數據、加重跨部會相關資料、前端的把關、輸入食品安全等文件措施，還有要提高違規產品的命中率。當我們在去年12月11號已經提高到100%的時候，怎麼會到快兩個月的時間才在邊境查驗到中國輸入臺灣的辣椒粉共兩萬多公斤，將近快3萬公斤，顯然這個邊境查驗、逐批檢驗是有很大的問題，我要挑戰這件事情，這是其一。","其二，你再看一下，保欣這家公司，以我所瞭解，看到相關的數據跟資料，目前來講保欣這家公司應該是最大的進口商，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["劉委員建國：從1月30日還不曉得保欣，2月7號就應該要知道了，你們目前維持對保欣做什麼作為？"],["薛部長瑞元：委員的兩個問題，第一個就是說我們從去年百分之百的抽批之後，到1月30日有公布邊境檢驗結果，驗出有輸入含蘇丹紅色素3號的這個……"],["劉委員建國：部長，你可能要大聲一點，不好意思。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，不好意思。這中間我們所做的其實就是對於還沒有百分之百抽批之前已經進來的，我們要求去做後市場的查驗，這個都有請地方的衛生局後續去做稽查，這中間因為總共的輸入是有9批檢驗不合格，所以這個我們就交給地方去做，所以這中間我們是有做事情的。","第二個問題是委員提到現在對於保欣，我們做了哪些處理，是不是我請署長來做說明？"],["吳署長秀梅：對於保欣公司相關的下游，其實地方衛生局都已經徹查，對於第一層、第二層的產品，如果已經查到的都是下架。另外，新北衛生局也在今年的3月3號依照食安法第七條第五項已經對保欣開罰200萬。"],["劉委員建國：什麼時候開罰？"],["吳署長秀梅：3月3號。"],["劉委員建國：3月3號？"],["吳署長秀梅：是。"],["劉委員建國：署長，你自己看，我的大事記裡面有出現保欣的是2月24日、2月29日、3月2日，甚至於有廠家主動自己拿去檢驗，發現有這個問題，也跟保欣提出退貨。保欣有通知它所有的下游廠家主動下架嗎？沒有，你們只有開罰200萬嗎？這個有加重惡意黑心廠商的責任嗎？這是一件事情。","我從你的食安五環的大面向來討論，第二個，我剛剛有特別提到，你們還沒有回答我，去年12月11號就已經有100%的查驗，怎麼會到1月30日還驗出這麼多的將近3萬公斤的蘇丹紅色素3號？你要跟我表達說這是之前，那這個之前的邊境檢驗是出了什麼問題？今天要感謝召委排這個專案，但是應該把邊境的相關人員都找來才對，怎麼會有這麼嚴重的事情發生？這真的是有問題啦，部長，你再思考一下，包含署長，到底是什麼地方出了問題？","而且你們整體的說法、整個報告裡面，我先提供這兩點，還有問題，我們都要在第一時間去阻斷非法產品於境外，但顯然是沒有啊。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員所呈現的1月30日有兩萬多公斤驗出來，這就是在邊境就擋住了，因為它驗出來是有。"],["劉委員建國：是1月30日嘛。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊，就是你這邊寫的1月30日這個。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛，那你是不是要跟我表達12月11日提高到100%的時候，一直到1月30日這中間還是有沒擋住的嘛……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有……"],["劉委員建國：12月11號之前也有沒擋住的嘛，才有底下這一些大事記嘛，應該是這樣說啊。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，應該是說兩萬多公斤是被擋住的。"],["劉委員建國：對啦，兩萬多公斤就是在1月30號100%邊境查驗的時候才擋住嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：之前沒有擋住嘛，因為你跟我講說，為什麼會發生大事記，應該是在提高到100%之前進口到臺灣來的，所以不管30%、不管50%，甚至於12月11號的100%，一直到今年的1月30日，我們都有很多沒有擋住，才會發生這麼多的大事件。"],["薛部長瑞元：100%之後就不會沒有擋住，是100%之前，100%之前才有漏網，如果提高到……"],["劉委員建國：那你就要提供相關數據，從12月11號100%之後一直到1月30日的所有逐批檢驗發生的不合格率有多少，不可能只有1月30日去擋到……還是你這是累積的嗎？你是從12月11號累積到……"],["薛部長瑞元：這是累積。"],["劉委員建國：好。所以你就是要告訴委員會，邊境查驗從今爾後統統要100%，不然就是會有漏網之魚。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：因為你看這個相關產品這麼多，蝦味先、調味料，還有鴨血等等，應該還有很多相關製品，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：明天可能會再有不一樣的食品發生嘛。"],["薛部長瑞元：有可能。"],["劉委員建國：這是其一。","其二，食安通報的SOP到底是怎麼樣？這是我們雲林縣政府的，它是在1月8號接獲陳情，結果是到1月22號才抽樣，就過了兩個禮拜，這是他們的新聞稿，我照他們的新聞稿說給你聽，1月30號才確認有蘇丹紅色素，隨即找了業者，業者也說在1月31號會立即通知下游下架產品，然後在2月7號通報全國。1月8號接獲陳情，2月7號通報全國，整個往上、往食藥署報，再向全國通報，如果依照這個SOP對照臺中的西布特羅事件，這是差天差地啊！它還有通知業者來做說明，再做統一的下架，你看，臺中的西布特羅事件連台糖都沒有通知過，我們的SOP到底出了什麼問題？面對這些事情，怎麼沒有一個全國統一的標準？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分的話，委員這樣問，我們是認為我們可以進一步找各地方縣市來精進。"],["劉委員建國：不是，部長，這個事情我覺得非同小可，有一個西布特羅，現在又有一個蘇丹紅，未來還有什麼事情我們不曉得。如果經常這樣，地方政府跟中央政府都不同調，這個沒有什麼看守內閣的問題，每天都要吃、每天都會遇到耶！"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦，這個應該大家再一致一下。"],["劉委員建國：這個原本中央就是要傾全力把整個SOP建置完成，才不會有這樣的事情發生，不然你看這個不是很離譜？一個是廠家對保欣主動退貨，你們知道這個事情後去裁罰200萬，另外一個是接獲陳情，兩個禮拜之後才抽樣，1月30日才確認，將近快一個月才確認有蘇丹紅，然後在1月31號，足足快一個月的時間才通報全國。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這個有時間上面的……"],["劉委員建國：這個SOP你們一定要趕快建置。","第三件事情，你們的報告裡面怎麼會對這個不合格輸入的廠家、中國這個廠家暫停3個月的輸入？這樣中國跟臺灣永遠都沒有對等的機會，這是非常不智的作為，怎麼說？臺灣的農產品、臺灣的食品輸入到中國，像是農產品一旦發現有介殼蟲，就無限期禁止輸入，相關的食品也一樣，在他們中國全國包含新疆都要求全面下架，進到他們的海關全部扣關。我們怎麼會對他們這麼好？只有禁3個月，這樣永遠沒有對等的機會。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，這個部分我們可以來檢討。"],["劉委員建國：請部長展現魄力，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["劉委員建國：另外，署長，我剛才提到的整個食安通報的事情，這個應該是要有一個非常明確的建置，不然這個事情會持續發生，會源源不斷。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["劉委員建國：最後，我還是覺得邊境的查驗有很大的問題，我希望你提供那些數據給我們，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["劉委員建國：1月30日之前查到的不合格率到底是怎麼樣的狀況，要給委員會所有委員做參考。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的質詢。","主席在這邊宣告，待會等林淑芬委員質詢完畢之後處理臨時提案。","接下來請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":296,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-2","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","林月琴","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","楊曜","林淑芬","陳雪生","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","陳瑩","王鴻薇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","林德福"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["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我們會後也聽了整個院長的一個答詢 院長是說我們會整體的去做評估讓公糧跟食糧都可以提高 這個我接下來再問部長 部長如果你對公糧收購不夠了解的話 你要怎麼調整呢 你要怎麼理解說 農民對於公糧收購價錢提高的期待呢"},{"start":291.579,"end":293.16,"text":"工糧收購分為幾種?計劃輔導餘糧然後以去年為例收購的數量每公頃多少?價格多少?我想去年的工糧的收購是28.7萬公頃"},{"start":320.014,"end":329.244,"text":"那我現在想要知道的是說過去在2019年陳吉仲他曾經提起說要增加餘糧收購的這個數量"},{"start":334.177,"end":338.984,"text":"這個部分那時候你們的新聞稿說擴大公糧收購是支撐糧價帶動2000億的社會效益那因為民間糧商收購價格會以公糧收購價格為基準"},{"start":350.16,"end":365.646,"text":"那所以呢有有益於讓農民的收入增高那本席也想問你啊現在有網軍側議說提高公糧收購的價格是圖利中間商我想請問一下部長這是怎麼一個圖利方式"},{"start":366.778,"end":391.708,"text":"我想跟委員說明如果說我們要去保障或是提高稻農的收入要看整個稻谷的買賣我想要問你提高工糧收購的價格是圖利中間商嗎?是嗎?我沒有看到那個新聞就是說他新聞的內容是怎麼寫我不是很清楚提高工糧收購本身它是可能的政策之一"},{"start":394.11,"end":398.472,"text":"那你覺得公糧收購制度是不是有圖利中間商我想這是兩碼子的事因為他已經實行50年了假設他是圖利中間商的話就是說我們政府已經圖利中間商50年了嗎"},{"start":413.615,"end":422.982,"text":"所以我剛才說工糧收購是當年度為了保障因為稻米是我們的糧食安全組必須要的所以我只想問你這個網軍側翼說提高工糧收購就是在圖利中間商不是在照顧農民這個你同意嗎?你有打算要照顧農民嗎?"},{"start":435.987,"end":447.47,"text":"我當然以我們農業部的立場我們一定是照顧農民的啊是啊 所以請本席在這裡特別要求部長能夠提高公糧收購的價格今天我們經濟委員會做出的提案是提高12塊那本席也有一個提案是提高10塊那不管是10塊12塊希望部長都可以重視公糧收購價格提高重視在落實照顧農民而不是在圖利中間商我覺得"},{"start":465.896,"end":466.256,"text":"我相信你應該也是不贊成這個說法的吧?"},{"start":494.389,"end":512.708,"text":"我想公糧收購有它的歷史那我再問一下說那如果假設2019年陳吉仲主委他還是在圖利中間商嗎2019那年比較相對特殊因為那年的產量特別高所以我就問你啊他是在圖利中間商嗎"},{"start":513.959,"end":514.599,"text":"我剛才已經說過了公糧、公糧收購"},{"start":533.506,"end":544.773,"text":"的態度一定要體恤農民所以在這裡本席特別在這裡懇求部長一定要將心比心能夠理解農民的需求謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149235","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149235","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddf7dc7fcb360bf851baff13691fd5102bf8ba9b0039caa7a6ccdf77eee62e812e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:01:20 - 11:14:44","影片長度":"00:13:24","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":804,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:14:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T11:01:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":550,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時1分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：你好。部長，我想問一下關於特教法的問題，從去年928其實都已經有特別公布了我們希望能夠提升特教助理員的薪資跟他們的一些福利跟待遇。我想在今年的時候，我也陸陸續續收到一些在第一線的特教助理員他們反映在這個部分還是會覺得有一點辛苦跟困難的地方，在這裡也要跟部長這邊說明、做一個報告。當然，我們希望他們的薪資、尤其是專任特教助理員的薪資不要低於3萬，這個部分我們現在做到怎麼樣的地步？"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝委員關心有關特教、尤其特教助理員的議題。我跟委員報告，特教法修法在去年通過之後，教育部也是同步……因為普特融合，特教助理員會是孩子跟老師最重要、很重要的支持點……"],["郭委員昱晴：對。"],["潘部長文忠：所以也同步提出一個4年的增聘計畫，這個4年是從113學年度8月1日開始，經費也都籌編了。這個經費，我跟委員報告，112年大概是六億多，113年因為要執行這個計畫，這是4年的計畫，總共光113年就增加了四億多，所以現在目前113年在特教助理員的這部分是達到十億多……"],["郭委員昱晴：3萬1……"],["潘部長文忠：十億多，我講的是總total。在每一年專任的部分會增加400位，逐年就增加到1,600位。在薪資的部分，我跟委員報告，專任的部分目前我們用10級來做規劃，這個要點會定下來，第一級大概就從三萬一千多開始起跳，逐年按照他的表現跟考核……"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我知道。"],["潘部長文忠：最終可以到達3萬7，這是我們目前初步在專任人員上面的規劃。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為現在的月薪是如我們所說，希望從3萬1開始，這個時薪核算下來大概是183塊，但是我們就104人力銀行的統計，現在大部分的大學畢業生今年會到這個職場，他們平均的時薪其實也已經來到194塊錢，也就是說，他們的月薪資大概是3萬2到3萬3。因為特教助理員是非常辛苦的工作，我們大家都知道，就是要支援每一班，他們人數其實有限，我們除了招募困難以外，留人也是非常不容易，您覺得3萬1這個誘因存在嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，因為在實況裡面，22個縣市的差異非常地大，從去年我們處理讓一般國中小的代理老師已經走向全國一致這樣的經驗跟基礎，這次也比較希望透過我們現在要點的訂定跟手冊跟縣市已經持續地會商，希望在8月1日能夠讓各縣市大家不要出現落差……"],["郭委員昱晴：我是覺得還有必要再做一些向上的調整。"],["潘部長文忠：對，委員，這個是新的機制，相較過往，會從三萬一千多開始起，也是有稍微調查過現在縣市，因為有的縣市一個月二萬多，有的可以到比較好的，所以我想這是第一步，我們會持續來做……"],["郭委員昱晴：好，這是屬於專任的部分，當然另外其實還有所謂部分工時的特教助理員……"],["潘部長文忠：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：部分工時的特教助理員我更覺得有一點點門檻其實是非常、非常之高的，我們舉例來講，我們當然有幫他們調整的美意在，但是以所謂的部分工時特教助理員，你們還要規定說希望能夠具有經驗者的薪資、服務滿1,400個小時，基本的工資增加5%，對不對？這是我們定下來的。如果真的就用這個標準來算的話，其實他等於一天如果是4個小時，他必須要工作350天、將近快要一整年的時間，累積下來大概1.75個學年度，但是他整個所有的時薪其實大概平均下來，還不到現在112年勞動部公布的部分工時勞工平均時薪194塊錢，這個部分是不是更難找人？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，關於這部分，我們現在有一個初步的草案，也跟縣市在做這方面的溝通，所以在有關待遇的部分、包含部分工時，一方面當然我們會把服務給孩子的時數相較以往再增加，這個是第一個我們會努力的……"],["郭委員昱晴：但他們的時薪也必須再增加啊。"],["潘部長文忠：對。委員再談到時薪跟進級這部分，我想委員給我們的一些建議，因為還在討論的過程……"],["郭委員昱晴：還在研議。"],["潘部長文忠：我想這部分是不是給我們再做一些討論？"],["郭委員昱晴：我們可以儘快，好嗎？因為其實大家應該都有在討論到這幾天中正高中的事情，我想特教助理員他們的留任、還有就是他們的誘因……"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這個制度我們現在利用這一次把它建立起來，也比較希望走全國一致。至於怎麼樣能夠留得住或招攬這方面的待遇，委員，這部分是不是讓我們再蒐集相關的意見來……"],["郭委員昱晴：是。然後再來其實我收到了一些第一線特教助理員給我的反映，他們是說特教助理員自己覺得在薪資的給付上，這可能跟各個鄉鎮市跟各個學校有一些關係，已經不只1位來跟我反映學校給付薪資的部分其實會延宕的，這也影響到他們的權益，因為他們的時薪不高或者薪水不高，他們除了特教助理員的工作以外，可能還要另外再去找其他的工作才能夠貼補自己的家用，我覺得這個部分我們真的要好好再來討論，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：這個部分謝謝委員的提醒，我想如果適用勞基法的這些服務人員，他們有一個勞基法的基礎規範……"],["郭委員昱晴：對。"],["潘部長文忠：這些規範我想在我們所定的要點跟手冊裡面，我們儘量把它……因為那個就是讓這些服務的同仁可預期怎麼樣的支薪，而不是隨著行政作業，有的時候早，有時候又慢，我想如果在這一次……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為如果不跟校方反映，他們可能真的領不到薪水。"],["潘部長文忠：對，因為過往比較多的時間等於都是縣市各自依照縣市內的方式在做，我剛才跟委員報告，希望這一次透過我們的要點的制定跟手冊，也希望全國比較一致。委員剛才提到有關薪資的請領、發放這部分，我想我會請國教署這邊在這方面能夠在要點裡面……"],["郭委員昱晴：再盯緊一點。"],["潘部長文忠：把它律定來比較好。"],["郭委員昱晴：是。另外，我相信大家也都一直在提到所謂的多元發展，這個其實是我們教育部對學生的一些美意，但是執行到這些日子下來，我們會發現學習歷程檔案對於資源相對弱勢的孩子來講，反而變成他們升學不利的條件，因為我相信大家都有看到很多的新聞，或者是很多的家長可能也對這方面有一些質疑跟一些反映。我們知道所謂的學習歷程檔案占了個人大學申請的20%，沒有錯，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，一般應該說通則，我們說學測以外的50%或50%以上是由學校自己……因為它會有好幾種不同可能要甄選學生的方式，所以它並不是完全每個學校都唯一。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們真的都希望以孩子為本位，我們用孩子求學的路程來做一個出發點去替孩子們設想，但相對地來講，我們也要考慮到很多家長的心情，因為現在有很多所謂的學習歷程其實不到六成的教授……透過翻轉教育做出來的一些調查，就是不到六成的教授他們認為其實是沒有辦法糾出所謂的是代寫的，還是學生自己寫的，相對地來說，如果是資源稍微比較不充足的孩子們，他們其實沒有辦法去做這麼漂亮的學習歷程的時候，對他們來講是不是真的就失去了求學的公平性？"],["潘部長文忠：就這一點，跟委員報告，在大學選才其實不只是看學測成績，也不只是看剛才談到早期我們說的備審資料，備審資料跟學習歷程檔案其實同樣在推甄當中是相同的……"],["郭委員昱晴：對，我當然知道其實這有很多的面向跟考量。"],["潘部長文忠：對，更重要的還是會輔以所謂學生面試，除了疫情期間有稍微做了一些，因為防疫的問題，否則現在各大學都還是會有跟學生面對面的……"],["郭委員昱晴：部長，其實我們聽過很多……"],["潘部長文忠：委員，推甄其實只是升學管道之一，不是唯一。"],["郭委員昱晴：沒錯。"],["潘部長文忠：這種情況如果不能讓學生有多元表現，學校也以多元參採，它就完全不叫推甄了。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以我們當然希望是多元發展。"],["潘部長文忠：最後很可能還是回歸到以學生學習考試成績為唯一，這個我想一定會再回到過往，所以現在三個……"],["郭委員昱晴：我給教育部一個小小的建議，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：既然這部分拉到20%，對於家長或是孩子來講，其實門檻是稍微有點高，他必須要投入更多的心血，如果我們把這20%的學習歷程稍微往下調，是不是有機會可以讓很多家長跟孩子也能夠減輕一些壓力？因為有家長跟我反映，剛考完學測，他的孩子本來應該在前百分之二十，其實功課是好的，可是他說接下來才是痛苦的開始，因為開始有繁星、有分科考試，如果同級分，還要啟動所謂的超額篩選，這對他們來講壓力及負擔其實變大了，所以這個部分我們可以稍微調整一下嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：是，這一些意見我們當然會持續蒐集滾動檢討。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。"],["潘部長文忠：但有一個概念前提，因為大學招生這件事情在大學法裡面原來學校還是要有空間，否則現在社會各界也都會覺得最簡單的就是回到聯考時代，大家每一個都考一樣，最後幾分你就去選志願，但是我想社會走到現在，對孩子的發展，如果在這上面過度去限縮學校有一點參採的機會……"],["郭委員昱晴：我們當然知道這是美意啦！但是我們不要讓美意到後來就變得……"],["潘部長文忠：委員，有一些意見我們再持續蒐整，但因為涉及到這方面，確實也不是教育部就能定下唯一的模式……"],["郭委員昱晴：我們還可以再做一些調整，還是以孩子為主。"],["潘部長文忠：對、對、對！我們再持續來蒐集。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，另外，我真的想要問一下，有關學生輔導法第一條的條件內容其實就是在於維護孩子、學生的身心健全跟他們的全人發展，而學輔法其實大家最關注的一個焦點大概就是所謂專任輔導人員的配置部分。我們過去可能是用班級數，但是因為現在少子化的關係，每一個學期全年度的班級數都在做變動，但是被輔導的學生人數其實是不斷地一直在增加當中，這個部分可能到了每年7月，這些輔導人員都會擔心自己會不會因為班級數減少結果沒工作？這是一點。再來，他輔導的一些個案以及本來很信任他的學生，也因為這個部分要被調動，所以變成他輔導的個案已經被中斷了，對被輔導的孩子來講是一個很大的損失，我覺得這部分我們再來研議，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：好，我簡要回應一下委員，學生輔導法關係到專業人員兩部分，高中以下有一個就是輔導專任教師，這個是按照規模，這幾年持續也都會再逐步增補，而且人數是相當龐大，我也讓小學提前在116學年度就能夠聘任完。委員剛剛關切的是專輔人員，包含其他各類，在這一次學生輔導法的檢討裡面，確實有在這方面做了剛才委員所提到一個比較大方向的調整，大學校院也是用學生比，所以目前就是從1：1200到1：900。"],["郭委員昱晴：就是不用硬生生用班級數來……"],["潘部長文忠：所以大學已經朝這個方式，以上說明。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們再加油！"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請羅廷瑋羅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","林倩綺","林宜瑾","吳春城","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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主年就增加到1600位在薪資的部分我跟委員報告專任的部分目前我們用10級的來做規劃 這個要點會定下來第一級大概就從3萬1000多開始起跳 主年按照他的表現跟考核 最終可以到達將近3萬7"},{"start":132.018,"end":143.943,"text":"這是我們目前初步在專任人員上面的規劃因為現在的月薪是如我們所說是希望從3萬1開始那這個時薪合算下來大概是183塊那但是我們就104的一個他們人力銀行的統計現在大部分的畢業生"},{"start":153.027,"end":153.788,"text":"我跟委員報告因為在實況裡面"},{"start":181.51,"end":181.69,"text":"主席"},{"start":206.912,"end":207.272,"text":"這是屬於專任的部分"},{"start":229.411,"end":249.002,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":249.082,"end":272.973,"text":"你們還要規定說希望能夠具有經驗者的薪資服務滿1400個小時基本的工資增加5%對不對這是我們定下來的那如果真的就用這個標準來算的話其實他等於一天如果是4個小時他必須要工作350天將近快要一整年的一個時間累計下來大概1.75個學年度"},{"start":274.834,"end":291.184,"text":"但是他的整個所有的時薪其實大概平均下來還不到現在我們的112就是我們的勞動部公佈的部分工時勞工的平均時薪194塊錢那這個部分是不是更難找人"},{"start":292.786,"end":306.32,"text":"委員這部分我想因為我們現在有一個初步的草案那也在跟縣市在做這方面的溝通所以在有關這個待遇的這部分包含部分公使一方面當然我們會把時數服務給孩子的時數會相較以往再增加不會說這個是第一個我們會努力的"},{"start":315.329,"end":335.48,"text":"委員在談到的實心跟晉級的這部分,我想委員給我們的一些建議,因為這樣還在討論的過程,我想這部分是不是我們可以再做一些再討論?因為其實大家應該都有在討論到這樣就是這幾天中正高中的事情,那我想這個特教助理員他們的留任還有就是他們的一個"},{"start":337.521,"end":353.086,"text":"議員,我們現在就說利用這一次把它建立起來也比較希望走全國一致至於怎麼樣能夠留得住戶招攬這一方面的待遇委員這部分我們是不是在收集相關的意見再來其實我收到的一些第一線就是特交助理員他們給我的反應他是說"},{"start":355.607,"end":355.867,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":373.795,"end":374.616,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想如果適用勞基法的這些我們服務的人員他有一個勞基法的基礎的規範"},{"start":395.759,"end":413.78,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":413.78,"end":415.06,"text":"委員會提到的有關新知的請您發放的這部分我想我也請國教署這邊在這方面能夠在要點裡面把它律定來比較好"},{"start":440.625,"end":441.006,"text":"學習歷程檔案"},{"start":456.423,"end":456.863,"text":"司法部長潘文忠"},{"start":479.8,"end":498.659,"text":"所以一般我應該說通則因為我們說學測以外的50%或50%以上這是由學校自己因為他會有好幾種不同的可能要甄選學生的方式所以他並不是完全每個學校都唯一"},{"start":499.019,"end":518.336,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":518.496,"end":543.82,"text":"就是不到六成的一個教授其實這是透過方船教育他們所做出來的一些調查就是六成的教授不到六成的教授他們認為其實是沒有辦法去揪出所謂的是代寫的還是學生自己寫的那相對的來說如果是資源稍微比較不充足的孩子們他們其實沒有辦法去做這麼漂亮的學習歷程的時候對他們來講是不是真的就失去了求學的公平性"},{"start":544.94,"end":553.304,"text":"這一點我就跟委員報告在大學選材其實不只是看學測成績也不只是看剛才談到的早期的我們說備審資料因為備審資料跟學籍歷程檔案其實它是有同樣在推爭當中相同的我當然知道其實這有很多的面向"},{"start":565.59,"end":580.061,"text":"更重要的還是會服務於所謂學生面試的除了疫情期間有稍微做了一些因為防疫的問題否則現在各大學都還是會有跟學生面對面的因為推薦這個其實只是升學管道之一不是唯一啦那這種情況如果說不能夠讓學生有多元表現學校也一種多元參採他就完全不叫推薦了"},{"start":593.752,"end":599.877,"text":"我給教育部一個小小的建議好不好既然這個拉到20%其實對於家長或是孩子來講其實這個門檻是稍微有點高他必須要投入更多的心血那如果我們把這20%學習歷程的過程我們20%稍微往下調"},{"start":619.213,"end":636.271,"text":"是不是有機會可以讓很多家長跟孩子他們也能夠減輕一些壓力因為有家長跟我反映就是說剛考完學測他的孩子本來應該在百分之前20其實功課是好的可是接下來他說他是痛苦的開始因為開始有繁星有分科考試如果同級分還要啟動所謂的超額篩選這對他們來講其實壓力負擔變大了"},{"start":640.675,"end":642.197,"text":"所以這個部分我們可以稍微詳細講解嗎?"},{"start":656.596,"end":676.8,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":677.3,"end":678.822,"text":"我們的學生輔導法的第一條條件內容就是在於維護孩子學生的身心健全跟他們的全人發展"},{"start":703.624,"end":725.2,"text":"我想就是在學輔法其實大家最關注的一個焦點大概就是所謂的專任的輔導人員的配置的部分我們過去可能是用班級數但是因為現在少子化的關係其實每一個學期每一個我們全年度的班級數都在做變動但是被輔導的學生其實人數是不斷的一直在增加當中"},{"start":726.381,"end":750.51,"text":"我想這個部分其實有時候可能到了每年的7月這些輔導人員都會擔心說我會不會因為班級數減少結果我沒工作這幾點再來我輔導的一些個案跟我本來其實很信任我的可是他們也因為這個部分要被調動所以變得我輔導的個案已經被中斷了對輔導的孩子來講是很大的一個損失那我覺得這個部分我們再來研議好不好"},{"start":751.511,"end":755.475,"text":"我請要回應一下委員因為如果以學生輔導法關係到專業人員兩部分高中以下當然有一個就是輔導專任教師這個是按照規模持續這幾年也都會逐步的增補而且人數是相當龐大我也提前讓小學再提前在116學年度就能夠聘任完"},{"start":776.014,"end":794.419,"text":"委員關切的是專輔人員就包含其他各類的這方面這次在學生輔導法的檢討裡面確實有在這上面做了剛才委員所提到這樣的一個比較大的方向那大學校院也就是用學生比啦所以目前就是從1比1千2到1比900所以大學就是已經朝這個方式來那我們再加油謝謝謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"149234","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149234","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd96d00555c993f450a874ae98c1f56169f8ba9b0039caa7a6ceda4b77bfb303745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：有關農民退休儲金，在上一屆完成了這個法律，對於農民退休儲金制度，110年1月1日開始辦理。在立法的過程當中，也要謝謝當時的農委會對原住民族相關的，因為平均餘命的關係有配合做一個處理，所以在法制上是有考量到原住民的部分。我們看農業部的報告，到112年底止，提繳受益人數約10.4萬人，也就是覆蓋率為未滿65歲具提繳資格農保被保險人34.6萬人的30%。你們期望113年度提繳農民退休儲金之覆蓋率目標為35%，這個要繼續加油。但是我們現在看的是原住民的部分，剛才是30%，而原住民的部分，未滿65歲具原住民身分之農保人數總共是1萬3,694人，提繳農退儲金之原住民人數只有783人而已，整個比例才6%，跟30%的差距真的是非常大。我們看農民人數最多的縣市，先照比例，花蓮縣有1,830人，提繳的是176人，占10%，是最高的，但是距離30%還是落差了20%。我們再看臺東，臺東是6%，南投是5%，屏東更低，只有3%。部長知道原因嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，第一個，先謝謝委員支持這樣一個法案。第二個部分，整個農民的退休儲金都是透過農會在宣導……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道。"],["陳代理部長駿季：據我們瞭解，大部分的原因是因為農會的推廣本身可能還需要再加強，所以這個部分，特別是針對原住民的部分，我們會啟動，包括我們試驗改良所有一個原鄉服務團，我們在受訓的時候、在上課的時候、在任何機會，都會把這個訊息傳遞給原住民，我們也會透過原鄉地區的農會加強相關的宣導。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你們要加強宣導是一定要的，然後怎麼樣去瞭解為什麼比例會這麼低？他們的考量是什麼？是有什麼樣的考量還是怎麼樣？順便瞭解相關問題。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們看整體覆蓋率的部分，有一部分的原因就是農業經營的不穩定性，當收入有不穩定性的時候，他們對於繳這個錢可能會覺得有點怕怕的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我說蒐集一下相關的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會蒐集相關的資料。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：繼續加油！","我們看原基法第十九條，請林務局，現在叫林業署，即林業保育署。原基法第十九條規定，「原住民得在原住民族地區……」，以水保署的業務來說就是採集野生植物及菌類，我現在談這個部分。至於森林法，現在的森林法是從93年1月20號公布到現在，「森林位於原住民族傳統領域土地者，原住民族得依其生活慣俗需要，採取森林產物」，因為一直沒有修，所以本席在原住民族基本法第三十四條，104年修正的這個，增加了第二項，讓它在法律還沒有修之前可以解釋，這是原基法第三十四條第二項。也謝謝當時的農委會配合原基法第三十四條第二項做了解釋，把所謂的傳統領域解釋為原住民族地區。但是畢竟不能一直透過解釋，還是要修法啊！還是要配合原基法第十九條去修森林法第十五條，有什麼困難嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員報告，我是不是可以請林業署說明？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，署長。"],["林署長華慶：跟委員報告，委員所講的這個我們非常認同，也會在我們修法的部分納入，未來不會再是指傳統領域。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，既然解釋也都解釋了，就把它法制化。","最後一個議題有關農業發展條例第三條，「農業用地：指非都市土地或都市土地農業區、保護區範圍……」，如果要興建農舍的話，有規定面積不得小於0.25公頃，且有農舍用地面積不得超過該農業用地面積10%這樣一個規定。然後都市計劃法臺灣省施行細則第二十九條第二項也有規定，都是一樣的規定。我的重點在哪裡呢？相關的這些都是需要這樣大的面積，而我們原住民族的困境在哪裡呢？我就舉一個部落──瑞良部落為例，這個部落被劃為都市計畫的農業區，是部落喔！它被劃為都市計畫的農業區，然後因為是農業區，這一筆土地有2,292.13平方公尺，很大的面積，但是只能蓋一間農舍，當然很多農舍的興建，像宜蘭以前一直被人詬病，那是另外一個問題，但是對於原住民族的部落，部落因為被劃為都市計畫的農業區，或者是非都市土地的農業用地，甚至我們的部落被劃為林業用地，在這樣一個情況之下，要怎麼去解決？因為這麼大的面積只能蓋一間農舍，我們兄弟姐妹分家要蓋就沒辦法蓋了。","所以我的建議是這樣，要請農業部支持，就是原住民族部落範圍內的農業區或者是農業用地，他要興建自用住宅的土地得劃設為建地。當然這個權責會涉及到內政部，包括國土計畫法、區域計畫法、都市計畫法，所以這樣一個議題要請農業部未來能夠支持，可以嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，您剛才講的，如果部落在聚集的部分，未來在國土計畫的話，它會被劃分為農四，劃為農四的話，大概就可以解決這個問題。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：現在是這樣，我知道每次回答都是國土計畫、國土計畫法，但是一直遙遙無期，所以這個部分……"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個要看地方政府，第一個，因為聚落如果聚集在一起的時候，特別是部落的部分，它可以劃為農四，因為現在地方政府在公展它的國土計畫圖，相關的意見這時候都可以去陳述，後續我們中央在審查的時候也會特別考量這一點。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以我說你們要特別支持。好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","張嘉郡委員詢答結束後，我們就休息5分鐘。","請張嘉郡委員做詢答，詢答之前，剛剛主委有特別說看地方政府，因為我們早上還有一個議題是關於蛋銷毀的，你們現在有4,000萬要地方政府處理，但是有很多地方政府沒有化製場，對於蛋殼跟蛋液，蛋液是沒有辦法送去焚化爐的，所以這個你們變成……","沒關係！本席就是希望不要一直說是地方政府，你們要針對那個議題去解決問題，才不會一直拖，每拖一天，你的電費又要花多少錢，好不好？我們也希望去把問題釐清，真正有答案嘛！好不好？謝謝。","來，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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這個整個比例才6%跟30點多 30%差距真的是非常的大"},{"start":173.305,"end":177.846,"text":"我們看這個農民人數最多的我們先照比例花蓮縣有1830人提角的是176占10%是最高的但是距離30%還是落差20%那我們看台東台東是6%南投5%"},{"start":202.386,"end":210.135,"text":"平等更低只有3% 這個部長知道原因嗎?"},{"start":212.53,"end":232.102,"text":"我跟委員說明,第一個先謝謝委員支持這樣的一個法案。第二個部分就是整個農民的退休儲金都是透過農會在宣導。我知道。我覺得很多的,我們了解很多的,大部分的原因是因為農會的推廣本身可能還需要再加強。"},{"start":232.862,"end":260.239,"text":"所以這個部分特別是針對原住民的部分我想我們會啟動包括我們試驗改良當中我們有一個原鄉服務團我們會上去讓在受訓的時候在上課在任何機會都要把這個訊息傳遞給我們的原住民然後我們也會透過原鄉地區的這些農會加強相關的一個宣導這個你們要加強宣導是一定要的然後怎麼樣去了解為什麼"},{"start":261.6,"end":268.323,"text":"為什麼會比例這麼低?他們也考量是什麼?有什麼樣的考量?還是怎麼樣?順便了解這個相關的問題。我們會收集相關的資料。繼續加油。好。"},{"start":290.199,"end":316.801,"text":"我們看這個延期法第19條這個零務集現在叫零業署零業保衛署延期法19條延住民得債延住民主第7以這個水保署的業務的話就是採集野生植物集我現在談這個部分那森林法現在的森林法"},{"start":320.155,"end":331.62,"text":"從9393公布到現在,生靈為原住民族傳統領域土地者得採取生靈產物,原住民得依其灌輸需要採取生靈產物。"},{"start":333.749,"end":357.334,"text":"因為一直沒有修了,所以這個本席在原住民主基本法第34條104年修正的這個增加第二項法律還沒有修的時候可以解釋這是延期法30條第二項也謝謝當時的農委會也配合依延期法這個34條第二項做了解釋"},{"start":358.697,"end":382.055,"text":"把這個所謂的傳統禮儀解釋為原住民主第7但是畢竟一直透過解釋是還是要修法還是要修法還是要把這個原基法還是要配合原基法第19條去修森林法第15條有什麼困難嗎?"},{"start":384.824,"end":391.086,"text":"委員所講的這個我們非常認同那也會在我們修法的這部分納入未來不會再是只傳統領域好這個就既然解釋也都解釋了就把它法制化法制化"},{"start":409.682,"end":431.28,"text":"最後一個議題,農業發展條例第三條,農業用地指非都市土地或都市土地農業區保護區範圍,然後要興建農舍的話,有規定面積不得小於0.25公頃,農舍用地面積不得超過該農業用地10%,這樣的一個規定。"},{"start":435.771,"end":463.489,"text":"然後這個都市計畫法臺灣省施行細則29條第二項也規定都是一樣的規定我的重點在哪裡呢這個相關的這些都是都是需要這樣大的面積我們就舉一個我們原住民族的困境在哪裡呢我就舉這個一個部落瑞良部落"},{"start":466.917,"end":480.9,"text":"這個被列為化為我們的部落被化為都市計劃區的農業區部落都市計劃的農業區然後這個農業區因為是農業區這一筆土地2292.13平方公尺很大的面積但是只能蓋一間農舍蓋一間農舍"},{"start":496.611,"end":523.755,"text":"所以當有很多農舍的興建像宜蘭之前一直被勾變那是另外一個問題但是對於原住民族的部落部落因為都是被化為都市計劃的農業區或者是非都市土地的農業用地甚至林業用地"},{"start":525.536,"end":550.359,"text":"甚至是我們的部落被化為在這樣的一個情況之下怎麼樣去解決因為這麼大的面積只能蓋一間農舍事實上我們兄弟姐妹分家就沒辦法蓋所以我是建議要請農業部能夠支持原住民族部落的範圍內"},{"start":553.537,"end":577.987,"text":"農業期的或者是農業用地他要興建自用住宅的土地得化設為建地當然這個前者會涉及到內政部啦會涉及到內政部國土計劃法、區計劃法、都市計劃法所以這樣的一個議題要請農業部未來能夠支持可以嗎?"},{"start":579.056,"end":588.858,"text":"我跟委員說明喔,如果您剛才講的部落是聚集的部分,未來在國土計畫的話,它會被劃分為農事那劃為農事的話大概就可以解決這個問題"},{"start":593.151,"end":600.974,"text":"我知道每次回答都是國土計劃法,但是一直遙遙無極,所以這個部分...因為地方政府在公展他的國土計劃圖"},{"start":611.457,"end":622.988,"text":"然後相關的意見這時候都可以去陳述那後續我們中央在審查的時候我們也會考量特別考量這一點所以我說你們要特別支持好好謝謝好謝謝好那我們張家俊委員尋答結束"}]}},{"id":"149233","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149233","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd1ed4eda6b7e1e8c12dd7be9832461c05f8ba9b0039caa7a6c4b181a31173e67d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:53:16 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11:06:45","影片長度":"00:13:29","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":809,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:06:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T10:53:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":530,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時53分）主席、秘書長，還有在座的司法院的廳長們大家好。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想秘書長辛苦了，經過今天這麼多委員這麼關心司法的問題、司法改革的問題，給您提出了很多的建言，希望您回去之後都能夠從善如流，希望能夠提出更多更好的建議。其實我也拜讀了司法院這邊所提出來113年的立法計畫，因為我這裡手上的資料就是短短的兩、三頁，大概就是你們立法計畫的方向，看起來你們現在所提出來的立法計畫，主要是為了要解決目前在法院可能遇到一些問題，所以就修了一些訴訟法、民事訴訟法等等的部分，固然我覺得這些條文修正是很重要，但是我也必須說，其實我更期待的就是司法院提出來的立法計畫是不是更能夠貼近社會的訴求。我們知道，現在其實社會非常關切幾個重要的問題，一個就是校園安全的問題；一個就是詐騙的問題。剛剛前面的幾個委員們其實都有不斷地提到這兩個問題，可是我覺得還蠻遺憾的，就是看到司法院所提出來這次的年度報告裡面，基本上並沒有回應社會所關切的議題。其實我認為要拉近司法與人民的距離，必須要時時刻刻瞭解人民的期許、人民的希望在哪裡，我們的法律、我們的立法都要符合國民的法律情感，我想這部分秘書長應該會同意我的看法。"],["吳秘書長三龍：同意、同意，贊同。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，因為這只是你們新提出來的立法計畫的方向，所以我也很期待，之後你們可以再多去研議相關的法案。首先我也要講的是，為什麼我剛才講說其實社會所期待的司法可以有更積極的作為，可是看起來並沒有。剛剛其實其他委員也有提到，司法院在回應大家對於前兩個月所發生的校園割頸案的部分，也召開了座談會，那麼在那個座談會的部分，當然我只有看到新聞稿，就是看到新聞的報導，也還沒有仔細地去找到，我好像也沒有找到司法院所公布的新聞稿，以及那天座談會的會議紀錄，但是從民間團體後來在新聞上面的闡述，希望司法院能夠朝向幾個部分修法，包含未來少事法適用的年齡是不是可以提高到20歲，然後可以有縮短感化教育的期間，還有要增加少年保護官等等的這些制度，不曉得現在司法院對於少事法的修法有沒有一些想法，有沒有一些進度？這個部分是不是可以請秘書長回答？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這一次包括2月19日那個座談會，我們有邀請專家學者，各個民間團體也都邀請過來，那麼有提出各種意見，在修法方面，這一部分，我們少家廳也有一個規劃。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，可以請廳長回答你們現在修法的規劃及你們預期的進度是如何？"],["謝廳長靜慧：是的，誠如剛剛委員垂詢的，我們目前最新的進度是跟行政院在洽商、跟各部會開會討論這些校園安全，或者是調保相關的這些，就是跟學校端或者社區端怎麼樣就個案去做商議，如何去讓少年能夠得到一些就學或者是安全等這些相關的處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝廳長，因為您剛剛回復前面幾位委員的時候有提到，但是我特別想要知道，就法院的這部分，你們的想法是什麼？因為坦白說，這個校園割頸案，過去已經陸陸續續有很多發生在校園裡面的傷害案等等，昨天還有一個新聞，我不知道你們有沒有看到，就是一個北投的高中生在課堂中間對老師施暴又言語的辱罵等等，其實校園安全的問題已經是非常地嚴重，不僅可能會對同班的同學、學校的同學們造成傷害，連對老師都是像這樣很粗暴。而且這已經不是首例，在這些年，這十幾、二十年來，其實陸陸續續都有發生這個問題，特別是當我們的校園管教權不斷的鬆綁之後，其實產生的問題非常多。我相信司法院這邊應該之前已經做了滿多的 study，不管是在其他國家法案的參酌，或者可能自己內部有些想法，我是很期待你們是不是可以很明確地說出一個你們要提出修法的時程，可以讓民眾們知道，畢竟你們提出來的修法案進到立法院，我們大家委員們還要一起討論，跟司法院這邊也要一起討論，所以今天您這邊還有秘書長這邊是不是可以先提出一個你們最快能夠提出修法的時間點，好讓我們社會大眾知道我們司法院的作為是積極的？"],["吳秘書長三龍：少家廳有一個規劃。"],["謝廳長靜慧：是，跟委員報告，也就是剛剛秘書長在做立法計畫的後面，他其實有提到就是目前司法院已經決定我們必須要第一時間、要儘快地能夠去增補我們少年調查保護官的人力，並且就是因應像高雄有高雄少家法院，希望北少家法院也能夠儘快成立，所以剛剛秘書長在立法計畫的後面，我們希望在這個會期針對要增補調保人力跟成立北少家法院涉及的這些相關的法案，能夠請立法院還有委員們大家一併來支持，還有行政院，這是第一個，增補調保人力，也就是「孩想陪你長大」這些民間團體，他們基於民眾的考量希望政府能夠一起解決這些校園安全、這些少年的輔導事宜。","第二點，剛剛委員提到的就是，我們為了在修法前能夠實際掌握每一個少年的狀況，所以我們在2月1號也已經上路試辦計畫，那跟委員報告，目前全國我們打算就透過委外，也獲得行政院的支持，就是希望能夠透過委外人力增補保護性的社工跟心理師總共60人次；再來就是我們的試辦計畫裡面有五千多個保護管束的少年，我們希望能夠透過目前六都的7個法院，3月5號我們也會跟其他法院的同仁開會討論，讓全國保護管束的少年都能夠納入我們的試辦計畫，以上先簡單補充。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝廳長的補充，我覺得這樣的說明非常地清楚，不過我覺得滿遺憾的就是，其實你們剛剛講得很好，但是都沒有在你們的立法計畫裡面講，你們立法計畫說你們要增設的是高等法院的司法事務官，完全沒有講到你們未來要增補調保人力，所以整個立法計畫的部分，我希望以後你們提到立法院來的時候能夠是更清楚的，否則的話會讓我們誤會，我以為你們其實只是要再多補高等法院的事務官，但是對於現在大家社會上面這麼期待的少年法院的法官或是調保人力相關的員額配置，你們都沒有提到。"],["謝廳長靜慧：是的，所以剛剛秘書長有先口頭上，我們會後會再立即地儘速送進來。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，好，謝謝，這個部分也謝謝廳長和秘書長剛剛的承諾。","另外有關於詐騙的問題，針對詐騙的問題在這些年來其實我們知道詐騙的人數是不斷地增加，地檢署的偵辦終結人數我想應該也是不斷提高嗎？我不知道秘書長這邊有沒有更具體的資料，有關於2022年跟2023年，到底現在地檢署所偵辦的電信詐欺罪的偵查終結人數，有沒有類似的資料？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個我們都有統計啦！一般都會在法院這邊統計，因為這些都會涉及到刑法第三百三十九條之四的加重竊盜，所以我們都有詳細統計出來，從109年到112年都有一個明細表出來，目前……"],["翁委員曉玲：事後可能請您再提供給我。"],["吳秘書長三龍：好，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想大家對於詐欺的這個問題不僅是要從更頭端，因為現在是整個跨部會一起都在做防詐，譬如說數發部它在做防詐的技術的部分，就司法來講，坦白說它是比較後端。可是我們現在看到的問題就是說，第一個，對於詐騙的人，在地檢署的部分，其實起訴的比例就不是很高，起訴之後然後再到定罪，再到法院定罪，定罪的部分就可以看得出來，其實真正判3年以上重罪的人數非常非常低，大部分都是判刑6個月以下，以至於對於很多的民眾來講，會認為說那到底我們的法院在做什麼，警察可能認為說我們花那麼多時間去逮補了這些詐欺犯，但是送到地檢署，那地檢署其實偵辦的起訴比例也很低，到了法院之後又輕判，種種的問題我覺得這是司法院必須要好好地去瞭解。那麼有沒有可能，不管在量刑的標準或者是未來跟地檢署這邊可以好好地針對這些事情一起談，如果說民眾期待未來我們的詐欺罪的處刑可以提高，那司法院這邊是不是也應該要有所提案，總是一個政府就是一個團隊嘛！大家必須要共同地去思考怎麼樣能夠讓臺灣的詐欺問題減緩，我希望司法院這邊可以提出來，不知道秘書長這邊、司法院這邊現在有沒有計畫未來要做些什麼事？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們對有關量刑加重的這些因素，我們都會印送有關的參考手冊給法官，另外我們現在也有在建置AI的輔助量刑資訊系統……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，這部分我曉得了。我最後還有一個部分，可能回去要跟法務部提一下，就是他們這次有提出來在你們的立法計畫裡面有要增加檢察事務官，可是看看我現在的PPT裡面，其實不管是……對不起，增加檢察官助理，現在其實檢察事務官的缺額都還有，那為什麼要增加這麼多的檢察官助理？這部分的話我希望之後法務部能夠給我一個清單，到底檢察事務官、檢察官、檢察官助理他們是怎麼分工、怎麼運作，檢察事務官目前的職務，以及他是不是在本職還是他是調到其他的單位去做一些行政的工作，這部分還請法務部要提供資料給我，謝謝。"],["吳秘書長三龍：好，這個我們會轉達。"],["主席：謝謝。我現在先提一下一個程序的宣告，就是我們等一下臨時提案的處理，因為我們是訂11點20分，所以待會在吳思瑤委員詢答完畢之後，我們就進行臨時提案的處理。","我們接著請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","翁曉玲","黃國昌","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","柯建銘","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鄭天財Sra 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秘書長 還有在座的司法院的庭長 處長們大家好我想秘書長辛苦了經過今天這麼多委員這麼關心司法的問題 司法改革的問題給您提出了很多的建言希望您回去之後都能夠從善如流希望能夠提出更多更好的建議其實我也拜讀了您司法院這邊所提出來的113年的"},{"start":33.619,"end":53.47,"text":"立法計畫,因為我這裡手上的資料就是短短的兩三頁,大概就是你們立法計畫的方向。那看起來你們現在所提出來的立法計畫主要是為了要解決目前在法院可能在這個所遇到一些問題,所以修了一些訴訟法、民訴訴訟法等等。"},{"start":55.411,"end":80.018,"text":"的這個部分那固然我覺得這些條文修正是很重要那但是呢我也必須說其實我更期待的就是司法院的提出來的立法計畫是不是更能夠貼近社會的這個貼近社會的訴求也就是我們知道"},{"start":81.775,"end":82.315,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":98.937,"end":128.243,"text":"這個司法院所提出來的這次的年度報告裡面基本上並沒有回應社會所關切的議題那麼其實我認為要拉近司法與人民的距離必須要時時刻刻了解人民的這個期許人民的希望在哪裡要我們的這個法律我們的立法都要符合國民的法律情感我想這個部分應該秘書長會同意我的看法"},{"start":129.363,"end":130.663,"text":"社會期待的"},{"start":149.682,"end":175.438,"text":"司法可以有更積極的作為可是看起來並沒有剛剛其實其他的委員有提到司法院在回應大家對於這個前兩個月所發生的校園割井案的部分也召開了座談會那麼在那個座談會的部分當然我只有看到新聞稿還沒有就是看到新聞的報導也還沒有這個仔細的去找到我好像也沒有找到"},{"start":175.816,"end":204.208,"text":"就是司法院所公布的新聞稿以及那天的那個座談會的這個會議的記錄但是從民間團體的後來在新聞上面的他們的闡述希望我們的司法院能夠朝向幾個部分修法包含就是這個是不是未來消失法適用的年齡可以提高到20歲然後可以有"},{"start":205.67,"end":219.691,"text":"說短短話教育的期間還有要增加少年保護官等等的這些制度那不曉得就是現在司法院對於少事法的修法有沒有一些想法有沒有一些進度這個部分是不是可以請秘書長回答"},{"start":221.049,"end":247.841,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":248.161,"end":276.898,"text":"對回答就是你們現在的修法的規劃及你們的預期的進度是如何是的就是說陳如剛委員垂詢的大概我們目前最新的進度是跟行政院在洽商跟各部會開會討論這些校園安全或者是調保的這些相關的這些就是跟學校端或者社區端怎麼樣的去就個案去做一個這樣一個就是商議如何去讓少年能夠得到一些"},{"start":277.378,"end":278.098,"text":"昨天還有一個新聞,就是一個北投的高中生"},{"start":306.383,"end":330.49,"text":"在課堂中間對老師施暴又言語的辱罵等等其實校園安全的問題這個已經是非常的嚴重不僅可能會對同班的同學學校的學生同學們造成傷害連對老師都是這樣很粗暴而且這已經不是這個首例在這些年這十幾二十年來其實陸陸續續都有發生這個問題特別是當我們的校園管教權不斷的鬆綁"},{"start":335.931,"end":337.171,"text":"立法院秘書長列席說明立法院秘書長"},{"start":360.479,"end":385.624,"text":"可以讓民眾們知道畢竟你們提出來的修法案進到立法院我們大家委員們還要一起討論跟這個司法院這邊要一起討論所以是不是您今天這邊可以還有秘書長這邊是不是可以先提出一個你們最快可以提出修法的時間點好讓我們社會大眾知道我們的司法院作為是積極的"},{"start":386.971,"end":389.653,"text":"邀請司法院議員"},{"start":410.807,"end":431.5,"text":"應應向高雄有高雄邵家法院那希望北邵家法院也能夠盡快的成立那所以剛剛秘書長在立法計畫的後面大概我們希望在這個會期能夠針對要增補調保人力跟成立北邵家法院涉及的這些相關的法案能夠請立法院還有委員們大家來一併的來支持"},{"start":431.96,"end":432.3,"text":"立法院秘書長列席"},{"start":453.417,"end":453.517,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":470.256,"end":470.836,"text":"立法院秘書長"},{"start":489.068,"end":489.808,"text":"立法院秘書長列席說明立法院秘書長列席說明"},{"start":511.435,"end":526.173,"text":"雖然這個整個立法計畫的部分的話我希望以後你們提到立法院來的時候是能夠是更清楚的對呃否則的話就其實讓我們誤會我以為說你們其實只是要再多補呃高等法院的事務官但是對於"},{"start":527.094,"end":550.099,"text":"現在大家社會上面這麼期待的少年法院的法官或是調法人力相關的這個緣合的配置可是你們都沒有提到是的是所以剛剛秘書長有先口頭上我們會後會再立即的盡速送進來好的好謝謝那麼這個部分我想就是也謝謝秘書這個廳長和秘書長剛剛的這個承諾那另外就是說有關於詐騙的問題"},{"start":555.78,"end":580.344,"text":"那針對詐騙的問題在這些年來其實我們知道詐騙的人數是不斷的增加那法院的就是對不起那個地檢署的他的這個偵辦終結人數也是我想應該也是不斷提高我不知道這個秘書長這邊有沒有更具體的資料有關於2022年跟2023年到底我們現在地檢署所偵辦的這個電信詐欺罪的這個偵查終結人數有沒有類似"},{"start":585.51,"end":585.57,"text":"主席"},{"start":601.028,"end":617.632,"text":"這些那一般這個都會在法院這邊統計的就是涉及到這個因為這些都會涉及到刑法339條之四的那個加重竊盜所以我們都有有詳細統計出來的從109年到112年都有一個明細表出來"},{"start":623.934,"end":625.475,"text":"施法部在做防炸的技術的部分"},{"start":642.37,"end":642.45,"text":"立法院秘書長"},{"start":665.46,"end":665.84,"text":"立法院秘書長列席說明"},{"start":694.085,"end":694.265,"text":"司法院秘書長"},{"start":720.818,"end":737.832,"text":"政府就是一個團隊嘛那大家必須要共同的去思考怎麼樣能夠讓台灣的炸機的這個問題能夠減緩那我希望就是司法院這邊可以提出來那不知道就是未來秘書長這邊司法院這邊現在有沒有已經計畫未來要做些什麼事"},{"start":742.233,"end":756.03,"text":"這些我們我們對這個這些兩行的兩行的有關的兩行的加重加重的這些因素啊我們都會應送有關的參考手冊給"},{"start":762.735,"end":782.226,"text":"這部分我曉得了那我最後還有一個部分就是說可能回去要跟司法跟這個防務部提一下就是他們這次有提出來在你們立法計畫裡面要增加這個檢查事務官可是看看我現在的PPT裡面其實不管是增加檢察官助理現在其實檢查事務官的缺額都還有"},{"start":785.908,"end":809.166,"text":"那為什麼要增加這麼多的檢察官助理那這部分的話我希望就是之後法務部能夠給我一個清單到底現在不管是這個檢察事務官檢察官然後檢察官助理他們是怎麼分工怎麼運作那檢察事務官他目前他的職務已經他是不是在本職還是他是調到其他的單位去做一些行政的工作這部分還請法務部要提供資料給我謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149232","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149232","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd343c7f1659a1f3bee0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a6b0df9db40e1467b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:57:05 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11:07:58","影片長度":"00:10:53","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":653,"end_time":"2024-03-04T11:07:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T10:57:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":512,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時56分）主席、各位列席官員，大家好。主席，我想請金管會主委。"],["主席：有請黃天牧主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委早。主委，請問虛擬貨幣為何無法當作貨幣使用？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實它當初2008年創造的時候，是覺得可以做支付，可是差不多十幾年來大概都是做投資，支付的絕少，這個跟它的性質有關係，流通性不夠高。"],["顏委員寬恒：一般的理解，因為虛擬貨幣的價格起伏太大，穩定性低，也無法成為長期支付的工具，個體不再受任何中央實體的管制，所以虛擬貨幣去中心化發行這種形式，一旦出現任何狀況，無任何發行人或者是機構來負責，是不是這樣？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，它是一個去中心化，而且它波動性很高，沒有內在價值，這些都是它相對的弱點。"],["顏委員寬恒：虛擬貨幣發行門檻低，交易自由度高，容易被不法人士利用，作為洗錢、資恐、逃稅的工具，虛擬貨幣現在雖然是金管會的業務，但是定位不明，你可不可以告訴我，目前是屬於轄下的哪一個業務機關來負責？"],["黃主任委員天牧：跟委員報告，去年3月行政院指示，屬於投資性質的虛擬資產是由金管會負責，我們現在是請證期局負責。"],["顏委員寬恒：等一下，我先把問題說完。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：目前金管會有沒有監管處罰虛擬貨幣犯罪的法令，以及虛擬貨幣屬於金管會來主管，但是處罰貨幣犯罪的法令是否有效的保護投資人及交易人，有沒有辦法減少受到詐騙的機會？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我跟委員報告，我們是管那個平臺，至於說他透過虛幣在網路上去詐騙，那個不是金管會監管的目的。我們根據洗防法有罰過一個個人幣商，他沒有去申報洗錢防制的聲明，移送到金管會，那我們就給他處分了，是有。"],["顏委員寬恒：我剛剛提到的就是，有沒有完整的一個處罰罰則，明定如何處罰這些犯罪的行為？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，跟您報告，只有根據洗防法違反的部分有處分的規定，其他目前沒有。"],["顏委員寬恒：OK。那VASP指導原則有要求應就虛擬資產白皮書內容與上下架制定審查標準及程序，並納入內部控管，也要求如果透過平臺發行之虛擬資產發行人，應於其網站公告所編製的白皮書，平臺應公告該網站連署，但虛擬平臺上下架的標準是什麼？什麼樣的虛擬資產是好的，是適合上架的？有沒有一個標準？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，這個我們是有原則，但要請平臺業者自己去訂定，它也要成立公會，是不是請副局長跟您報告一下？"],["顏委員寬恒：好。"],["高副局長晶萍：報告委員，有關這個上下架當然就是依照平臺業者他們自己的內控還有審核標準，然後規定在內控裡面，我們的指導原則也是希望他們有明確的標準，所以他們成立公會以後會去訂定公會的相關自律規則。"],["顏委員寬恒：這些自律規則，就像剛剛一開始本席前面提到的，如果有犯法的行為，有沒有一個實體可以負責？"],["黃主任委員天牧：平臺是要去負責的，平臺是要去負責。"],["顏委員寬恒：那相關的罰則有沒有訂定？"],["黃主任委員天牧：現在我就是跟委員報告，目前只有洗防法的依據，還沒有專法。"],["顏委員寬恒：我想再請教有關市場准入的標準，就是市場的誠信跟交易安全是非常重要的，證券跟期貨交易所都有一個具體的規範手段，就是透過特許還有執照來控制市場的准入，在VASP指導原則當中，雖然需要完成洗錢防制法令遵循的聲明，但是這並非市場准入的規定。依照歐盟的加密資產市場規範，有意要向公眾發行於平臺上架交易虛擬資產的法人，必須向該國主管機關申請核准。請問我國有沒有這樣的措施？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員跟您報告，分兩階段，第一個階段，當然長遠之計就是我們未來訂一個專法，現在我們有建議洗防法增訂一條，對於以虛擬資產為業的必須要有登記的部分，目前還在討論中。"],["顏委員寬恒：專法還在討論中？"],["黃主任委員天牧：不是，專法在研究中，但是可不可以在洗防法裡面安一個條文，讓經營虛擬資產的業者先做登記，因為他基本上常見的問題就是防制洗錢的問題，這部分目前在跟法務部討論中。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，就我剛剛所講的，虛擬貨幣無法成為長期的支付工具，因為它容易成為一個投資、炒作的標的，許多的虛擬資產平臺都有提供相關的服務，這就造成了很多的不當銷售，而不當銷售的風險，包含未如實陳述的商品，還有推銷不適用的商品給客戶，這樣的情況都很有可能發展變成是詐欺案件，金管會目前採取的管制方式就是要求他們自律式的管制，還有沒有其他作法？"],["黃主任委員天牧：就是還有洗防法的規定，然後我們金融檢查也會去檢查。"],["顏委員寬恒：你說就是用洗防法，但當客戶端這邊一旦發現遭受到這樣的現象，或者變成是一個買賣不實或詐欺案件時，要再回頭去追溯，就已經來不及了啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，跟委員報告，詐欺當然不是金管會……我們知道會移送或是檢調單位會處理，但是我們去金檢的時候，不是只看他的洗錢防制，也會看他有沒有根據我們去年9月份的指導原則去做，也會列一些檢查的意見讓他去改進。"],["顏委員寬恒：虛擬貨幣的詐騙案層出不窮，尤其檢調建議金管會和法務部應該儘速研議對虛擬貨幣交易採取許可制，管理、限制甚至禁止非交易所個人幣商，你認為這樣子可不可行？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這也是我們目前在專法研究上的一個方向。"],["顏委員寬恒：那專法有沒有一個期程？什麼時候要提出？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們大概半年後會提出一個草案。"],["顏委員寬恒：半年後？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以這個會期不會提出來？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個不會，因為還在針對現在各國的情況做研究。"],["顏委員寬恒：因為時間不多，接下來我要請教的問題包括電子支付。請教主委，臺灣目前有多少電子支付業者？可不可以告訴我？"],["黃主任委員天牧：大概有差不多10家左右。"],["顏委員寬恒：10家嗎？30家以上吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有，那個是兼營的，專營的話是10家。"],["顏委員寬恒：從我的手板可以看出來，根據目前的資料顯示，去（2023）年因詐騙案件的總財損高達79億，或許更多，因為很多沒有呈現出來，詐騙集團往往都透過境外的IP來進行詐騙，當當事人發現的時候要找源頭都已經來不及，所以源頭控管最重要，金管會作為主管機關，有沒有什麼作為或措施？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，其實這也是我們報告中前面11頁所說的，就是電支部分會去看他後面連結的是不是跟他原始在銀行開戶的電話號碼是同一個，用這種方式，去年已經降低了九成的件數，委員您這邊所提示的3萬5,000件跟七十幾億，是不是都是電支，也許會後我再跟您請示。"],["顏委員寬恒：如果不是電支的話，應該不只這樣子，規模應該更龐大。"],["黃主任委員天牧：電支有這麼多？不好意思，也許您的資料可能是正確的，我再瞭解一下。"],["顏委員寬恒：今天的報告書內容，我們看到有很多在校園、在社區的宣導，還有拍攝影視的短影音來進行宣導，請問，除了宣導之外，還有沒有什麼更強硬的措施？"],["黃主任委員天牧：強硬的措施，其實就是從金流的過程中，在電支這邊去提醒，包括OPT的提醒等等，銀行的防詐也會有同步的處理。"],["顏委員寬恒：除了宣導之外，一定還有更好的方法，因為新型態的詐騙五花八門，不論是虛擬貨幣或是電子支付，都有很多的便利性，當然詐騙集團就會利用這個便利性而有機可乘，所以我剛剛提到的這些是呈現出來的財損部分，但沒有呈現出來的或許更多，我們如何讓臺灣不會成為詐騙之島？我不希望臺灣被冠上這個惡名，所以你身為金管會主委，我們希望在未來能夠找出一個更好的方法，尤其在源頭的控管上，能夠有更好的作為，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，謝謝委員指導，我們會全力以赴，謝謝委員。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝，謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝顏寬恒委員的質詢。我們休息10分鐘，謝謝。","休息（11時7分）","繼續開會（11時21分）"],["主席：好，我們繼續開會。接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","葛如鈞","邱志偉","黃國昌","林楚茵","羅明才","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":269,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.26721875,"end":0.8072187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.16159375,"end":2.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.37659375,"end":3.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.232843750000001,"end":5.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.177218750000002,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.122218750000002,"end":10.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.910968750000002,"end":12.501593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.17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去訂定工會的相關自立規則那這些自立規則如果就像我們剛剛在剛剛一開始就本席前面前述提到的那如果有犯法的嫌違那沒有一個實體可以負責"},{"start":242.538,"end":258.093,"text":"平台是要去負責的平台是要去負責的那我們相關的法則有沒有現在是我就是跟委員報告我們目前只有洗房法的依據目前還沒有專法那我想要請教市場準路的標準就是說"},{"start":259.574,"end":283.77,"text":"市場準錄市場的一個誠信跟交易的安全是非常重要那證券跟期貨交易所都有一個具體的規範手段就是透過特許還有執照來控制市場的準錄那在VASP的指導原則當中雖然需要完成洗錢防治法令遵循的聲明但是這並非市場準錄的規定依照歐盟"},{"start":284.631,"end":296.999,"text":"的一個加密資產市場規範有意要向公眾發行與平台上架交易虛擬資產的法人必須向該國主管機關申請核准五國有沒有這樣子的措施?"},{"start":298.14,"end":322.727,"text":"我們跟您報告分兩階段那第一個階段當然長遠之際就是我們未來定一個專法那現在我們有建議那個洗房法增進一條對於這個以這個虛擬資產為業的來必須要有登記那這部分還在討論中吧專法還在討論中專法在研究中但是可不可以在洗房法裡面安安一個條文"},{"start":325.388,"end":346.94,"text":"讓這個經營虛擬資產的業者來先做登記,因為他基本上常見的問題就是防止洗錢的問題。好,那這個我剛剛所講了,虛擬貨幣無法成為長期的置物工具,因為它容易成為一個投資炒作的標的。許多的虛擬資產平台都有提供相關的服務,這就造成了很多的不當銷售。"},{"start":348.241,"end":365.151,"text":"不當銷售的風險包含為如實陳述的商品還有推銷不適用的商品給客戶那這樣子的情況都很有可能發生變成一個詐欺案件金融法院目前採取的管制方式就是要求他們自律式的管制還有沒有其他的做法"},{"start":365.951,"end":388.304,"text":"就是還有洗房法的規定,既有檢查有去檢查但是你說就是用洗房法,那當客戶端這一邊一旦發現這個遭受到這樣子的一個現象的時候或者是說變成一個買賣不實或者是一個詐欺案件那再回頭去追溯,這個已經來不及了"},{"start":391.01,"end":407.826,"text":"所以我跟委員報告,詐欺當然不是監管會,我們知道會移送或是檢調當然會處理,但是我們去精檢的時候不是只是看他的洗錢防治,也會看他有沒有根據我們去年9月份的指導原則去做,也會列一些檢查的意見讓他去改進。"},{"start":410.347,"end":436.903,"text":"虛擬貨幣的詐騙案這個層出不窮尤其檢調跟檢調建議說金管會和法院不應該技術研議對虛擬貨幣交易採取這個許可制就管理限制甚至於禁止非交易所個人避傷你認為這樣子可不可行這也是我們目前在專法研究上的一個方向是那專法有沒有一個棋程"},{"start":438.902,"end":466.784,"text":"我們大概半年後會提出來一個草案半年後?這個會期不會提出來?這個不會因為還在針對現在各國的情況去做研究接下來因為時間不多接下來的問題包括電子支付請教主委臺灣目前有多少電子支付的業者?可不可以告訴我?大概有差不多10家左右吧10家嗎?30家以上吧?"},{"start":468.103,"end":490.679,"text":"沒有那個是兼營的專營的話是實交那可不可以告訴我目前我們像我剛剛這首版我們目前根據資料顯示去年2023年因詐騙案件的總財損就高達79億或許更多因為很多沒有呈現出來"},{"start":492.06,"end":511.226,"text":"那詐騙集團往往都透過境外的IP來進行詐騙那當這些當事人發現的時候要來找源頭已經來不及那源頭的控管是最重要所以金管會這邊作為這個主管機關有沒有什麼作為一個措施"},{"start":512.245,"end":535.38,"text":"其實這也是我們報告中前面11頁在說的就是電資部分也會去看他後面連結的是不是跟他允許在銀行開戶的電話號碼是一個用這種方式去年已經降低了九成的這些件數所以您這邊所提示的三萬五千件跟七十幾億是不是都是電資也許會後我再跟您請示如果不是電資的話應該不只這樣子那規模應該更龐大"},{"start":540.823,"end":564.511,"text":"我們今天的報告書的內容裡面我們有看到就是說我們有很多的這個宣導在校園還有在社區還有拍攝這個演示的這種短影音來做宣導那除了宣導之外還有沒有什麼更強硬的措施"},{"start":566.844,"end":594.837,"text":"強硬的措施其實就是從金流的過程中電資這邊去提醒丟花包括OPT的這些這些提醒就是臺灣的防詐也會有同步的去處理因為除了宣導之外一定還會有更好的方法因為新形態的詐騙五花八門那不論是虛擬貨幣或者是電子支付都有相當都有很多的便利性那當然"},{"start":595.957,"end":609.542,"text":"責任集團就會利用這個便利性來有機可乘所以我剛剛提到這些是呈現出來的財損的部分那沒有呈現出來或許更多那我們如何讓台灣不會成為詐騙之島"},{"start":612.463,"end":636.294,"text":"這個部分這個惡名我不希望說臺灣被冠上這個惡名所以這個監管會主委你身為監管會的主委我們希望能夠在我們未來能夠找出一個更好的方法尤其在源頭的控管能夠有更好的一個作為好不好是謝謝委員主導我們會全力以赴謝謝委員謝謝主委謝謝顏寬恒委員的質詢我們休息10分鐘謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149231","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149231","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddddd6c770451d89d03e0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a6c78b9b4fb5f8c3b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：主委，您好。我看到今天金管會業務報告中有一個主題叫做「推動永續金融發展」，據我所知，一開始推動綠色金融行動方案是針對綠能產業的投融資，2.0版進一步擴展到永續金融這樣的概念，目前最新的應該是3.0版，我看到的是有公告「永續經濟活動認定參考指引」、辦理「永續金融評鑑」、要求上市櫃公司定期發布永續報告書等等。我們當然知道「永續」的概念在這個3.0版當中其實是要避免「漂綠」，就是宣稱它有一些對永續環境的做法，但可能實際上沒有。我比較想瞭解並請教主委的是，這個永續的概念有沒有包含原住民族的金融？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這3個階段基本上都是以機構為主，就是金融機構和上市櫃公司，原住民部分在普惠方面是有涵蓋；以上大概跟您報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。其實我會這樣問是因為我瞭解其他國家有在關注原住民的金融服務，以澳洲來看，他們有一個「澳洲可持續金融倡議」，第一是它要求建立原住民金融服務辦公室，其次是它也有去關注原民金融架構設計與服務的包容性，又或者是鼓勵金融機構讓原民更易獲得銀行服務和退休金服務，再者，他們也會強化對原住民有益且適當的保險產品，更重要的是，他們對於一些投資者所做的盡職調查，也會去看有沒有尊重原住民的權利。","另外是像紐西蘭這個國家，他們有Māori Business（永續金融中心），因為毛利的土地結構和我們臺灣其實是很類似的，他們也有一些土地的限制，很難用土地做為擔保品，所以這個永續金融中心就是辦理計畫與銀行合作，去支持一些針對毛利土地貸款的解決方案。舉個例子，他們也會針對一些想要蓋房子的去做一個專案計畫，幫助他們辦理貸款建造房屋。","加拿大的做法則是有一個永續金融行動委員會，重視的是加強原住民族在永續金融的參與，他們在「綠色與轉型金融分類路徑圖」當中有一個「不造成重大損害」的評估，就有包含「尊重原住民權利與和解」的部分。","所以我想要請教一下主委，您有沒有一些看法、想法？因為在您初次來本席辦公室拜訪的時候，我有跟您提到我很關心未來原住民土地在金融服務中的角色，我覺得您非常友善也很有想法，我是在想說是否有讓原住民族參與、強化或支持族人金融安全，也避免所謂的「漂綠」在授信進行盡職調查的時候，是不是會去一併考量、要求要有原住民的知情同意權？我想先聽聽看主委的想法。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員帶來更廣泛的社會價值讓我們學習，非常感謝。如果從上市櫃公司來講，我們現在的永續報告書是依照荷蘭GRI（Global Reporting Initiative）去編製的，這裡面是訂有原住民相關規範的幾個原則來揭露，包括不歧視原住民、有無違反原住民人權、對原住民員工的照顧，如果上市櫃公司有做這些事或是做了這些事有影響，都應該在永續報告書揭露。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以目前已經有這樣規劃了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有這樣子的規範，而且不只如此，因為我們要求金融機構做投融資的時候要議合，如果後面的那個投資對象有牽涉到原住民，這當然也應該是在議合的範圍之內，所以原則上應該是有，我們會強化落實。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那如果有的話，因為我自己看我是看不到，我看了綠色金融行動方案3.0，又或者是永續經濟活動的認定方法，我目前是看不到，但是主委說有嘛！所以我是在想說，是不是可以請金管會連同原民會，能夠就永續金融架構中，剛才您說有，那我是在想說如果有的話，又或者沒有，是不是要去做一些修改？是不是3個月內可以讓我看到書面報告？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好。委員跟您報告，因為我們也瞭解，國內現在的原民會統籌原住民各類型的經濟活動、相關的活動，這個事情可以不可以麻煩委員你也跟原住民委員會提一下，我們會跟他去諮詢溝通？其實在微型保險方面，金管會跟原住民委員會都有很好的合作。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，沒有關係，我是希望說能夠在金管會的架構底下，畢竟原民會並不是所謂的金融專業單位。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想委員的期許跟指示，我們會跟原民會溝通，看看我們的綠色金融現在這個方案中，有沒有可以增加一些關注原住民的的政策，這樣是不是可以？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們3個月之內給您。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我就是希望可以看到這些，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為我們也很羨慕國外的作法。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那我們也是很進步的國家，我希望我們也能夠有這些好的服務。主委，我講這一些還是要回歸到一件事情，因為這件事情其實困擾原住民幾10年，也讓原住民窮的只剩下土地，原住民是在自己的土地當故宮，就是這樣的窘境、困境。我們跟很多有原住民的國家一樣，原住民保留地有所謂土地的一些限制問題，但是我們的原保地很大喔！像私有的話，大概有13萬公頃，公有的原保地也有13萬公頃。可是我要跟主委講，這一些土地早就已經流失大半，雖然原住民的保留地只能限制給原住民，不能流入非原住民，但是道高一尺魔高一丈，這些年透過各種方法，包括設定抵押、借名登記等等，乃至於現在因為這幾年有禁伐補償金，所以很多人都把它視為很搶手的拍定物，甚至有很多人就是透過原住民，自己用現金去直接收購很多很多的原保地，那我們也不知道會留做什麼用途，所以在這個地方我很希望能夠趕快遏止這樣的現象。","我們來看一下一般的林地，我們可以看到它在市場鑑價其實可以貸到很多，就是以市場鑑價，即便是打八折都有400萬，但是原保地是被拒絕的，而且是用公告現值去算，所以它的價值，同樣的一公頃可能只有160萬，可是我們現在就是想說這樣的求貸無門，就會落入另外一個財務陷阱，因為我們到Google打「原保地貸款」，其實啪啦啪啦啪啦一堆，但是他們都是私人當舖，而且你可以看到它的月利率，以年利率來看幾乎就是高利貸。但是我接過很多的陳情案，他明明只有借1萬元，可能2年後他要還30幾萬，為什麼？因為他根本對利率一點概念都沒有，他可能拿到的是日利率，所以我想這個月利13%已經是高利貸很可怕了。針對這樣的惡性循環，主委剛剛有提到，可不可以去協調這些銀行公會，禁止金融機構拒絕以原保地擔保，能夠有禁止歧視條款。另外您也有提過增加銀行的誘因，能不能夠在ESG永續金融的評鑑給予加分，又或者是參考紐西蘭的作法，建立原保地的鑑價系統，能夠跟特定的銀行合作，給予我們一些專案的金融服務。這個部分是我很在意的，希望主委是不是有可能討論一些對策，能夠一併也在2個月或3個月內給予回覆？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，其實這個案子去年10月財政部有討論過了，當然主要還是因為移轉的限制，不過我們會遵循委員的意見跨部會研究，包括跟銀行公會去研究，就照您的意思2個月之後跟您回覆。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，非常謝謝主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：但是這個研究可行性，我們儘量朝您期待的方向去努力。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝主委給予這樣友善跟肯定支持的答復，感謝您。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：感謝伍麗華委員的質詢。","接著我們請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","葛如鈞","邱志偉","黃國昌","林楚茵","羅明才","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":269,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.55409375,"end":2.8153437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.00096875,"end":3.8953437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.008468750000002,"end":9.818468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.902843750000002,"end":11.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.640968750000003,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.454718750000001,"end":30.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.65471875,"end":35.181593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.21534375,"end":36.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.088468750000004,"end":38.354093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.04596875,"end":42.150968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.02846875,"end":58.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.72221875,"end":61.20284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.219718750000006,"end":63.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.90284375,"end":64.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.96596875,"end":70.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.41659375,"end":83.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.06846875000001,"end":88.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.96221875,"end":97.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.97346875000001,"end":129.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.91784375,"end":169.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.47284375,"end":197.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.43471875,"end":248.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.10596875000002,"end":273.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.30846875,"end":249.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.69284375,"end":277.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.72596875,"end":278.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.87346875000003,"end":286.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.23096875000005,"end":286.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.24784375,"end":289.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.58909375,"end":294.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.95534375,"end":306.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.02534375000005,"end":329.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.51534375,"end":340.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.85534375000003,"end":349.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.76534375,"end":355.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.72221875,"end":362.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.60721875,"end":371.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.90534375000004,"end":371.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.93909375000004,"end":387.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.76034375,"end":382.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.99596875000003,"end":386.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.48534375,"end":414.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.75096875,"end":389.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.27784375000005,"end":391.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.89346875,"end":394.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.10534375000003,"end":422.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.31096875000003,"end":440.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.14346875,"end":446.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.45909375,"end":457.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.83284375000005,"end":537.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.3647187500001,"end":542.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.8659687500001,"end":596.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.02596875,"end":572.3803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.96721875,"end":609.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.87659375,"end":613.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.23471875,"end":616.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.6140937499999,"end":621.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.8203437500001,"end":619.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.2378437500001,"end":628.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.2959687499999,"end":627.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.74721875,"end":628.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.3672187500001,"end":633.92346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.051,"end":2.133,"text":"有請黃主委有請黃主委"},{"start":10.263,"end":38.144,"text":"主委您好我看到今天金管會的業務報告中有一個主題叫做推動永續金融發展那據我所知一開始的時候推動這個綠色金融行動方案是針對這些綠能產業的投融資那2.0版的時候進一步擴展到永續金融這樣的一個概念"},{"start":39.085,"end":62.734,"text":"那目前最新的話應該是說是一個3.0版那我看到的是有公告永續經濟活動認定參考的指引那辦理永續金融評鑑或者是要求上市櫃公司定期發布永續報告等等那這個部分我們當然知道這個永續的概念"},{"start":64.019,"end":82.835,"text":"是在這個3.0榜當中其實是避免一些票率啦就是宣稱他有對一些對永續環境的這樣的一個做法但是可能實際上沒有但是我比較想了解請教主委的是這個永續的概念有沒有包含原住民族的金融"},{"start":84.487,"end":112.89,"text":"我們現在這三個階段基本上都是以機構為主就是金融機構跟上市會公司那原住民部分在普惠方面是有涵蓋是帶給您報告其實我會這樣問是因為我了解其他國家他們其實有在關注原住民的金融服務以澳洲來看那澳洲有一個澳洲可持續金融倡議第一個他有要求"},{"start":113.751,"end":120.801,"text":"建立原住民的金融服務辦公室關注原住民金融架構設計與服務包容性鼓勵金融機構讓原住民獲得"},{"start":130.235,"end":149.983,"text":"銀行的服務跟退休金的服務那另外呢他們也會強化對原住民有益而且適當的保險產品那更重要的是呢他們對於一些投資者所做的淨值調查他們也會去看有沒有尊重原住民的權利那另外像紐西蘭這個國家"},{"start":151.243,"end":168.248,"text":"貓利Business永續金融中心因為貓利的土地結構跟我們臺灣其實是很類似的那它也有一些土地的限制所以他們也是很難用土地作為擔保品所以呢這個Business它就是辦理計畫"},{"start":170.068,"end":191.482,"text":"與銀行合作去支持一些針對毛利土地貸款的解決方案那舉個例子他們也會針對一些想要蓋房子的去做一個專案計畫幫助他們去做辦理貸款建造房屋又或者呢我們看到加拿大那加拿大的做法是他們有一個永續金融行動的委員會"},{"start":192.483,"end":215.508,"text":"他們重視的是加強原住民在永續金融的一個參與那他們有一個叫綠色與轉型金融分類路徑圖當中有一個叫不造成重大損害的評估他就有去包含尊重原住民權利跟和解這個部分所以我想要請教一下主委那您有沒有一些看法想法因為"},{"start":216.108,"end":238.324,"text":"在您初次來辦公室拜訪的時候我有跟您提到我很關心未來原住民土地在我們金融服務的一個角色那我覺得您是非常友善也很有想法那我是在想說是否有讓原住民族參與強化或支持族人金融安全那也避免這個所謂的票率"},{"start":238.664,"end":259.209,"text":"在受信的進行進職調查的時候是不是會去一併考量要求要有原住民的知情同意權我想先聽聽看主委您的想法我想謝謝委員您帶來更廣泛的社會價值讓我們學習非常感謝那您提到的如果從上數位公司來講"},{"start":260.149,"end":285.872,"text":"我們現在的永續報告書是依照荷蘭GRI去編制的那它這裡面是有定有原住民相關規範有幾個原則來揭露包括不歧視原住民那永無違反原住民人權對原住民員工的照顧那這些如果上市會公司有做這些事或是做了這些事有影響他都應該在永續報告書說去揭露"},{"start":286.337,"end":310.993,"text":"所以目前已經有這樣規劃了嗎?有這樣子的規範只是而且不只如此因為我們要求金融機構做投融資的時候要跟要做議核那如果後面的那個投資的對象他有牽涉到原住民這當然也應該是在這個裡面議核的範圍之內所以原則上應該是有那我們會強化落實好那如果有的話因為我自己看我是看不到"},{"start":311.733,"end":339.348,"text":"我看了綠色金融行動方案3.0又或者是永續經濟活動的認定方法我目前是看不到但是主委您說有嘛所以我是在想說是不是可以請金管會聯同園民會這邊能夠就永續金融架構中剛才您說有那我是在想說如果有的話又或者沒有那是不是要去做一些修改那是不是三個月內可以讓我可以看到一個書面報告"},{"start":340.865,"end":362.285,"text":"好,委員沒聽報告,因為我們也了解國內現在的園民會其實他統籌原住民各類型的經濟活動相關的活動,那這個事情如果你可不可以麻煩委員你也跟原住民委員會提一下,我們會跟他去諮詢溝通,其實在維新保險方面,金管會跟原住民委員會都有很好的合作,"},{"start":362.805,"end":388.557,"text":"對沒有關係我是希望說能夠在金管會的架構底下因為畢竟園民會他其實並不是所謂的金融專業單位好我想委員您的期許跟指示我們會跟園民會溝通看看我們的綠色金融現在這個方案中有沒有可以增加一些關注原住民的政策是不是這樣可以我們三個月之內給您完成我就是希望可以看到這些好不好"},{"start":389.237,"end":414.059,"text":"因為我們也很羨慕國外的做法我們也是很進步的國家希望我們也能夠有這些好的服務主委其實我講這些還是要回歸到一件事情因為這件事情其實困擾原住民幾十年也讓原住民窮的只剩下土地原住民是在自己的土地當故宮"},{"start":415.16,"end":440.396,"text":"就是一個這樣的窘境困境那因為我們就跟很多各地原住民國家一樣就是原住民保留地他其實有所謂的土地的一些限制問題但是我們的原保地很大喔像私有的話大概有13萬公頃公有的原保地也有13萬公頃可是我要跟主委講"},{"start":441.537,"end":457.207,"text":"這些土地其實早就已經流失大半雖然原住民的保留地只能限制給原住民不能流入非原住民但是道高一尺 魔高一丈這些年透過各種方法"},{"start":457.887,"end":473.25,"text":"包括我們的設定抵押、借名登記等等那乃至於現在因為我們有進法補償金這幾年所以呢也很多人都把它視為很搶手的拍地霧甚至"},{"start":473.951,"end":487.128,"text":"有很多人就是透過原住民自己用現金去直接收購很多很多的原保地那我們也不知道會留作什麼用途所以在這個地方我很希望說能夠趕快遏止這樣的現象我們來看一下"},{"start":490.913,"end":511.088,"text":"一般的林地我們可以看到它在市場建價其實是可以帶到很多就是以市場建價即便是打八成都有400萬但是元寶地是被拒絕的而且是用公道限值去算所以它的價值同樣的一公頃它可能只有160萬可是我們現在就是想說"},{"start":514.891,"end":536.345,"text":"這樣的一個求貸無門就會落入另外一個財務陷阱因為我們到google打元寶地貸款其實啪啦啪啦啪啦一堆但是他們都是私人當鋪而且呢月利率你可以看到這樣其實年利率他就是幾乎就是高利貸但是我接過很多的陳情案他明明只有借一萬元可能兩年後他要還三十幾萬"},{"start":537.706,"end":553.119,"text":"為什麼因為他根本對利率一點概念都沒有他可能拿到的是日利率所以我想這個月利13%就已經高利但很可怕了所以我想說這樣的一個惡性循環我是希望說主委您剛剛有提到"},{"start":553.599,"end":581.635,"text":"就是我們可不可以去協調這些銀行公會就是禁止金融機構拒絕以原保地做擔保能夠有禁止歧視條款另外您也有提到過就是增加銀行的誘因那能不能夠在ESG永續金融的評鑑給予加分又或者是參考紐西蘭的做法建立我們原保地的建架系統能夠跟特定的銀行合作給予我們一些專案的金融服務我想"},{"start":583.076,"end":595.865,"text":"這個部分是我很在意的那希望主委您是不是有可能就是去討論一些對策那能夠一併的就是也在兩個月或三個月內給予回覆"},{"start":597.088,"end":612.857,"text":"是委員提出案子去年10月財政部有討論過了那當然主要還是因為移轉的限制不過我們會遵循委員的意見去跟跨部會做研究包括跟我們的銀行工會去做研究是就照您的意思兩個月之後跟您回覆"},{"start":613.297,"end":627.888,"text":"好,那非常謝謝主委。但是這個研究可行性,我們盡量朝您期待的方向去努力。是,是。好,謝謝主委給予這樣的一個友善跟肯定支持的答覆。感謝您。好,謝謝主委,謝謝主席。感謝吳立華委員的質詢,接著我們請嚴匡衡委員質詢。"}]}},{"id":"149230","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149230","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd27cc6eb4f93093ffe0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a606f8ede9641c85fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:35:13 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10:45:47","影片長度":"00:10:34","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":634,"end_time":"2024-03-04T10:45:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T10:35:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":404,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（10時35分）主席，我們請黃主委。"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["陳委員玉珍：早，主委。金門地區最近三年發生的詐騙案846件，110年225件，111年316件，112年305件。詐騙手法大概是假投資101件，解除分期付款49件，假網拍48件。至於詐騙金額，這幾年金門地區在假投資方面被詐騙了一億一千四百八十八萬多，假冒機構一千多萬，解除分期付款四百多萬。你也去過金門吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：去過。"],["陳委員玉珍：金門的人口結構是比較快速老化的，65歲以上的老人占總人口數的17%，已進入高齡社會，所以常有老人受騙，或退休公務人員養老金被詐騙。前一陣子金融評議中心到金門表示，要進一步與金門樂齡學習中心合作，開展更多針對高齡居民的金融知識講座和培訓課程。除此之外，金管會對於防止老人詐騙有何對策？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們在今天的報告中有提到，若老年人臨櫃則匯款額度都有特別的管制。"],["陳委員玉珍：我有看到，兩個……"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，3萬和50萬。"],["陳委員玉珍：我有看到，除了這樣以外呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：可不可以針對您來自的選區──金門？我知道那邊的人口結構比較高齡化……"],["陳委員玉珍：都是老人在家，而年輕人大部分都不在……"],["黃主任委員天牧：我覺得如果透過數位和老年人溝通，可能不見得很方便。請委員安排，由我們派相關金融知識的宣導專家面對面，安排到社區裡跟這些老人家請益、跟他報告，請他注意……"],["陳委員玉珍：多安排這類實際到金門地區跟我們鄉親做……"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們面對面跟他報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：宣導課程。"],["黃主任委員天牧：去年我們到368個鄉鎮跟兩萬多個社區民眾面對面溝通。如果委員同意的話，請委員安排這樣的活動。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，我們繼續往下。請問主委，證券交易法第六條規定，本法所稱有價證券，指政府債券、公司股票、公司債券……有價證券。新股認購權利證書、新股權利證書及前項各種有價證券……視為有價證券。前二項……我想這主委相當熟悉。請問主委，有限合夥人在有限的出資額是不是證券交易法所規定的有價證券？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個我不太清楚，因為定義要很小心，看證期局……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，請說明。哪一位可以回答？"],["高副局長晶萍：報告委員，有關證交法規管，如果有價證券對不特定人去做招募的話，可能涉及到有價證券的招募行為。證交法的有價證券是有限列舉，即相關的股權、債權及其他經核定的……"],["陳委員玉珍：我用白話問。一般社會大眾的理解，金管會就是監管上市上櫃公司，對不對？至於有價證券出資額，若一般民間公司也有出資的話，這歸不歸你們監管？一般的，沒有上市櫃的公司，因為這也是有價證券，這歸不歸金管會管？"],["高副局長晶萍：公司法所募集發行的……"],["陳委員玉珍：公司法……"],["高副局長晶萍：股份有限公司的股票。"],["陳委員玉珍：所有中華民國股份有限公司都歸你們管？出資額具募資過程……"],["高副局長晶萍：報告委員，公司法成立股份有限公司讓它發行股票，但它發行股票後不見得是證交法管的，要補辦公開發行做資訊揭露才會進到證交法……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們把這點切清楚。到公開發行階段才歸你們管，是嗎？"],["高副局長晶萍：對，要做公開發行後才會進來……"],["陳委員玉珍：或者開始做公開發行就歸你們管？切在哪裡？"],["高副局長晶萍：所謂公開發行，其實我們的概念是資訊的公開發行，不是它做公開發行就是把股票賣給不特定人，這個行為是受到證交法規範，即使它沒有公開發行，這個行為就是違反證交法第二十二條的規定，我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：我的問題很簡單，就只有這個題目：有限合夥人在有限合夥的出資額是不是屬於有價證券的範圍？未公開發行的股票是不是屬於有價證券的範圍？就是歸不歸證交法你們管的範圍？"],["高副局長晶萍：如果是在我們境內做公開招募的……"],["陳委員玉珍：在中華民國境內！"],["高副局長晶萍：做公開招募的行為，然後是股票的話，就會觸犯證交法的規定。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以歸你們監管啦？"],["高副局長晶萍：就是它要有公開募集的行為時，才會歸到我們管。"],["陳委員玉珍：我會問這個問題是因為國內有很多新創公司的業者，上一屆我好像也跟你們討論過新創公司募集資金的問題，當時我舉了一些例子來說明新創公司取得資金的方式，2012年美國歐巴馬政府提出了股權群募法案，簡稱JOBs Act，英國的FCA則提出監理沙盒，其他國家比如說新加坡的金融管理局也推出全新的投資基金管理架構，有別於一般公司法。但是我國在新創公司募集資金方面做了什麼事情？2014年行政機關有委請櫃買中心推動創櫃板，2015年訂定股權性質群眾募資管理辦法、有7家業者獲准經營，2017年制定了金融科技發展與創新實驗條例，喊出要讓臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心。我想請教，根據2015年訂定的股權性質群眾募資管理辦法獲准經營的7家業者，到目前為止經營狀態怎麼樣？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這的確是我們的櫃檯買賣中心有crowdfunding，創櫃也是2013年開始去做的，櫃買中心董事長、總經理……"],["陳委員玉珍：請他回答，好嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：這7家獲准經營以後，到目前為止經營的績效如何？"],["陳董事長永誠：跟委員報告，當初有7家申請，現在只有3家還維持著牌照，但是基本上都……"],["陳委員玉珍：有在經營嗎？沒有在經營嘛！"],["陳董事長永誠：沒有什麼特別的業務。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有怎麼在經營，對不對？"],["陳董事長永誠：對、對、對。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有怎麼在經營嘛！當初國內為了推動新創公司募集資金，就做這方面的努力、鼓勵新創公司，但是這7家現在基本上都沒有在經營嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：那請問2017年制定金融科技發展與創新實驗條例之後，新創成果如何？到目前為止有多少個案件呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我可不可以這樣跟委員報告？如果你是關心我們創新事業募資的籌集，櫃買中心以前的戰略新板現在已經合併成為創櫃板，跟證交所的創新板都是在為創新事業募資。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道、我知道，但是我們要看你們的歷史表現嘛！你們2015年推動之後有7家業者獲准經營，但是剛剛櫃買中心告訴我，現在基本上都沒有任何人在推動。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我可以跟委員報告，crowdfunding跟創新不完全是連結的，它是群眾為了特定的目的，大家集資去做的一件事情，但是創櫃板也有一些特別寬鬆的條件……"],["陳委員玉珍：我問的就是你們過去的業績怎麼樣，櫃買中心說你們當初推的時候有7家，現在歇業只剩下3家，這3家又沒有任何新創業務產生，你們有沒有檢討過這個現象可能的原因是什麼？為什麼會這樣？因為我們國家一直在推動新創、支持新創產業啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：我可以跟委員報告，其實從2020年開始，交易所和櫃買中心都在推動創新板，包括戰略新板，我們可以把這個報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以那個是創新板嘛！我說的是你們所推動的那7家到現在基本上都歇業，然後請你告訴我，制定金融科技發展與創新實驗條例之後，新創業者的成果有多少件？"],["黃主任委員天牧：那是金融科技的。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，我問的是兩個問題嘛！我要問的是你們過去做得怎麼樣，剛剛那個基本上就是零、成績是零嘛，那這個呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：那個不是零，我們現在有……"],["陳委員玉珍：都歇業不叫零，不然叫什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：仰德大樓樓上有一個創新園區，有好幾十家各國的創新業者……"],["陳委員玉珍：剛剛我問的是櫃買中心，他跟我說零啊！他剛剛不是說沒有在做嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：那是群眾募資目前沒有，但是創櫃板還是有。"],["陳委員玉珍：我不是問創櫃板，我剛剛是問你群募啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：群募不見得叫做創新，那就是一個集資的作為。"],["陳委員玉珍：我問的是綜合的部分、我問的就是你這個，你不用跟我玩這個文字遊戲……"],["黃主任委員天牧：我沒有玩啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：我問的就是你們過去這7家的結果是怎麼樣，國家既然要往創新產業的方向去走，你們推動這個至少要有一定的業績，如果沒有，請你告訴我是什麼原因嘛！可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：創新是有業績，但是crowdfunding不是等於創新，那只是一個集資。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為時間到了，對於我剛剛問的問題，麻煩你把相關的資料準備給我。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，我們準備一份呈給委員參考。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝，多久呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：1個月之內是不是可以？"],["陳委員玉珍：1個月哦？好！謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢。待會兒我們在顏寬恒委員質詢之後休息10分鐘。","接著請伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","葛如鈞","邱志偉","黃國昌","林楚茵","羅明才","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":269,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.41221875,"end":23.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.68971875,"end":24.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.719093750000003,"end":43.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.53471875,"end":44.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.344718750000006,"end":51.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.938468750000006,"end":53.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.642843750000004,"end":61.455968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.19409375,"end":76.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.85534375,"end":75.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.89221875,"end":85.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.60409375,"end":88.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.81909375000001,"end":105.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.23596875000001,"end":92.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.52534375,"end":111.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.63034375000001,"end":107.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.99284375,"end":121.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.72096875000001,"end":120.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.10909375000001,"end":125.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.95221875000001,"end":135.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.07721875000001,"end":137.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.39346875,"end":142.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.39659375000002,"end":145.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.67471875,"end":147.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.16346875000002,"end":157.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.40284375000002,"end":163.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.06034375000002,"end":164.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.76409375,"end":169.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.25346875000002,"end":169.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.30409375000002,"end":169.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.32096875000002,"end":169.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.89471875,"end":169.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.97909375,"end":170.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.76784375,"end":179.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.64846875,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.80284375000002,"end":191.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.03471875000002,"end":194.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.53221875,"end":205.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.14221875,"end":212.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.39846875,"end":214.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.32659375,"end":215.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.08159375000002,"end":219.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.83221875,"end":219.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.13159375,"end":221.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.28346875000003,"end":221.51534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.76846875,"end":225.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.74284375000002,"end":225.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.43034375000002,"end":228.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.83096875,"end":227.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.42159375000003,"end":227.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.02909375000002,"end":232.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.68659375000001,"end":235.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.15471875000003,"end":250.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.65471875000003,"end":249.39284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.03409375,"end":256.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.73346875000004,"end":256.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.07096875,"end":262.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.15096875,"end":259.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.33596875,"end":262.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.02784375000005,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.97284375000004,"end":264.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.18784375,"end":280.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.53971875,"end":284.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02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"start":78.072,"end":78.853,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":95.525,"end":95.565,"text":"財政委員會長"},{"start":113.24,"end":138.731,"text":"去368個鄉鎮跟2萬多個社區民眾面對面的溝通那請委員如果您同意的話安排這樣子的活動好好那我們繼續再往下請問這個主委證券交易法第6條規定喔裡面規定有價證券指政府債券、公司股票、公司債券等等有價證券新股認購的權利證書新股權利證書還有其他有價證券四個有價證券那前兩項這你相當熟悉我想請問您"},{"start":151.844,"end":164.495,"text":"有限合夥人在有限合夥的出資額是不是《證券交易法》所規定的有價證券?這個我不太清楚,看政經局,因為我這個定義部分要很小心講出來。哪一位可以回答?"},{"start":171.983,"end":201.343,"text":"報告委員那我們其實證交法規管的就是如果說這個有價證券對不特定人去做招募的話他就可能涉及到我們有價證券的一個招募的行為那我們證交法有價證券是有限列舉就是相關的股權、債權還有其他我用白話問啦好這個證你們的金管會一般社會大眾的理解就是監管大概就是上市上櫃這個公司對不對"},{"start":203.205,"end":211.215,"text":"但是證券有價證券出資額這個東西來講比如說一般的民間公司他也是有出資額這個歸不歸你們監管"},{"start":213.444,"end":231.994,"text":"一般的沒有上市櫃的公司因為他也是有價證券我們規管的公司法所募集發行的股票股份有限公司的股票是所有中華民國所有的股份有限公司的"},{"start":235.556,"end":262.174,"text":"報告委員公司法成立股份有限公司讓他發行股票但是他發行股票以後不見得是證交法管的要做一個補辦公開發行做資訊接到才會進到我們所以到了公開所以我們把這個切清楚所以到了公開發行如果有到公開發行的那個階段才歸你們管是嗎對他要做公開發行他開始做公開開始要公開發行就歸你們管"},{"start":265.257,"end":279.552,"text":"公開發行其實我們的概念是資訊的公開發行不是說他做公開發行就是把股票賣給不特定的人這個行為是受到證交法即使他沒有公開發行他做這個行為就是違反證交法22條的規定"},{"start":281.584,"end":284.226,"text":"所以我的問題很簡單就只有這個題目有限合夥人在有限合夥的出資額是不是屬於有價證券的範圍"},{"start":295.019,"end":312.337,"text":"為公開發行的股票是不是屬於有價證券的範圍?貴不貴證交法這個你們管的範圍?如果它在我們境內做公開招募的行為然後是股票的話就會觸犯到證交法的規定所以歸你們管"},{"start":314.622,"end":328.721,"text":"所以歸你們管轄範圍啦歸你們監管啦就是他要有公開募集的行為的時候他才會歸到我們我會問這個問題是因為有事實上國內有這個很多的這個新創這個公司的業者事實上我好像"},{"start":329.642,"end":353.522,"text":"上一屆也跟你們討論過新創公司募集資金的問題我們舉了一些例子那時候跟你們說2012年美國的歐巴馬政府要解決我說的是新創公司取得資金的方式歐巴馬政府有提出一個股權群募法案叫Jobs Act英國的FCA也提出監理沙盒"},{"start":356.385,"end":375.035,"text":"新加坡金融管理局提出全新的投資基金管理架構有別一般的公司法但是我們國家在做新創公司募集資金方面我們做了什麼事情2014年有維請櫃買中心推動了創櫃板2015年有做了股權性質"},{"start":381.619,"end":394.934,"text":"群眾募資管理有7家業者2017年有一個什麼金融科技發展創新條例喊出要把臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心我想請教2015年做的7家的群眾募資管理辦法7家業者獲得經營到目前為止"},{"start":402.08,"end":419.628,"text":"這個的確是櫃台買賣中心有Craft Funding創櫃也是2013年開始去做的櫃台買賣中心董事長、總經理列席這個7家那時候獲准金融以後到目前為止金融的績效如何?"},{"start":428.786,"end":457.285,"text":"本委員報告當初有申請7家但現在只有3家還維持著牌照但是基本上都沒有有在經營嗎沒有在經營沒有什麼特別業務沒有什麼在經營對不對對對對沒有什麼在經營當初我們為了這個國內要推動這個新創公司的募集資金要做這方面的努力鼓勵新創公司但是這7家現在基本上都沒有在經營那請問2017年你們所做這個金融科技發展創新實驗條例"},{"start":459.147,"end":472.977,"text":"這個新創的成果如何呢?到目前為止有多少個案件呢?報告委員我可不可以這樣跟您報告如果你是關心我們對於創新事業的募資的籌集我們現在櫃買中心以前的戰略新版現在已經合併成為創衛版跟證交所的創新版"},{"start":478.62,"end":501.769,"text":"但是我們要看你們的歷史表現嘛你們2015年有推動這個有7家業者成立嘛,獲准嘛那剛剛我們櫃檯中心告訴我說現在是基本上都沒有任何人在推動報告委員我可以跟您報告Crawl Founding 跟創新不完全是連結的它是一個群眾為了特定的目的它大家集資去做的一件事情但是創櫃板也有一些特別寬鬆的條件"},{"start":503.736,"end":523.405,"text":"我問的就是你們的過去的業績做得怎麼樣?櫃買中心就你們在推這個當初有7家後來你說現在歇業只剩下3家這3家又沒有任何的新創的這個產生你們有沒有去檢討過這個所發生的原因?可能的原因是什麼?為什麼會這樣?因為我們國家一直在推動新創支持這個新創產生"},{"start":524.245,"end":545.516,"text":"那委員我可以跟您報告其實從2020開始我們交易所跟購買中心都在推動創新版包括戰略新版我們可以把那個報告對那個是創新版吧我說的是你們所推動的這個7家到現在基本上都是歇業然後請你告訴我你的金融科技發展創新實驗條例的這個新創業者的這個成果有多少件"},{"start":546.036,"end":568.607,"text":"那個是金融科技的我問的是兩個問題嘛我要問的是你們過去做的怎麼樣嘛剛剛那個基本上就是零嘛成績是零嘛那這個呢?那個不是零東協業不叫零不然叫什麼?仰德大樓樓上有個創新園區有好幾十家各國的創新業者剛剛我問的是櫃板中心他剛不是跟我說零嗎?他剛不是說沒有在做嗎?"},{"start":569.707,"end":593.227,"text":"那是群眾募資目前沒有?沒有在做嗎?但是創櫃板還是有?我是問創櫃板,我剛剛就是問你群募啊。群募那個不見得叫做創新,那是一個集資的一個作為。我問的是綜合的,我問的就是你這個,你不用跟我玩這個文字遊戲。我沒有玩啊。你過去的這個7家的結果是怎麼樣?你們既然要往國家往這個方向去走,走創新產業的方向去走,你們就應該要,你們推動這個應該要一個,"},{"start":595.749,"end":614.6,"text":"至少有一定的業績,那如果沒有,請你告訴我是什麼原因嗎?可以嗎?創新是有業績,但是Crawl Foundry不是等於創新,那是一個集資。好,麻煩你,因為時間到,麻煩你把我們剛剛問的這個問題,把相關的資料準備好,我們準備一份呈給委員參考。好,謝謝,多久呢?"},{"start":615.706,"end":620.772,"text":"一個月之內是不是可以?一個月喔?好,謝謝。謝謝委員,謝謝。謝謝陳怡君委員的質詢。待會我們在顏匡文委員質詢之後休息10分鐘。接著我們請伍立華委員質詢。"}]}},{"id":"149229","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149229","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd86fdb275391ddc7be0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a6ab4cf1424603640c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:23:31 - 10:34:59","影片長度":"00:11:28","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":688,"end_time":"2024-03-04T10:34:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T10:23:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":376,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時23分）主席，我請金管會主委。"],["主席：有請黃天牧主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：我也請檢查局局長一起上來。"],["主席：請檢查局張局長。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委、局長，去年我揭發踢爆合庫投信違反公司治理，也就是包含董事長還有當時的行銷長，還有另外1位，他們違反相關規定，接受海外基金公司的招待到東京，10天之後就跟這家公司，也就是BNY Mellon簽約。在去年踢爆之後，我要求金管會必須要做金融檢查，因為他們內部其實多次跟合庫金控的總公司及金管會投訴，但一直都沒有處理，所以我想請教主委，我知道你們已經去做過金檢，金檢的結果是怎樣？"],["黃主任委員天牧：關於檢查的結果，我們在12月中對於合庫金控在稽核投信的一些作法，以及合庫投信作法都有檢查，檢查的結果是，基本上那3位出國的人應該都不符原來基金公司契約規定出國人員的資格。另外，合庫投信、合庫金控部分，可能在稽核上也有……受檢舉之後去稽核，其實整個稽核出來的結果，兩次的人力都是相同的，我們有提出檢查的意見。至於合庫投信派不符合契約規定條件的人去參訪，還有這些相關的缺失，我們請他內部自行要議處相關失職人員。此外再提出整個的改善計畫，我們是2月7號發函的，在3個月之內提報董事會之後報金管會。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，關於這個案子，合庫投信確實有違反相關的規定，而且合庫金控的檢查也有瑕疵，也有不周全的地方，才在金管會再度的檢查之後發現他們裡面確實有缺失。第一個，你要求合庫投信要處理，甚至要議處；第二個，合庫金控總公司的稽核，他們自己也要檢討，你剛才說要讓他們幾月提出相關的結論、報告？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們是2月7號，過年前1天發函的，3個月之內，他們內部檢討改善、制度改善報董事會之後，3個月之內要報回金管會，等於說是5月7號之前要報回金管會。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以這件事情跟我更早之前一樣，踢爆合庫金控下的合庫AMC人謀不臧，任用私人，董事長任用他的外甥、他的小三、他的樁腳，包含他事業夥伴的子女，通通放到合庫AMC，當然去年合庫AMC也做了議處，讓這幾個人通通滾蛋。這二個連續的事情嚴重暴露我們現在的公股事業、公股銀行裡面其實有嚴重的公司治理問題，你同不同意？在1年內，合庫這麼大一家公股金控公司，二個子公司都出現了這個問題，這有沒有違反相關的公司治理問題？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們認為金控對子公司的管理部分應該是有問題的。"],["王委員鴻薇：當然有問題。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：只是合庫金控有這麼大的問題，照樣升官的升官，這都是很大的問題，雖然這可能不是金管會的職權，但是我會來推動。","為了避免公股金控公司下面子公司的人事會不會有任用私人、去藏私人，包含自己銀行高層隨便任用，甚至我直接說，其他的行政官員，包含我們院內有沒有立法委員的子女也塞進這些公司裡面，寄生公股金控公司。我告訴大家，這個是我為什麼進入財政委員會的原因。我會特別、特別去把這些抓出來，因為我們有會議紀錄，所以我在這邊說我會推動一件事情──針對現在金控公司裡面的銀行，過去因為它有公開招考制度，所以有一定的標準，它公開招考，至少要透明公開，但它裡面有沒有問題？還是有問題啦！至少它公開招考。","但到了子公司就沒有了，所以裡面就容易有這些，我直接說：藏污納垢的現象。我認為既然銀行有招考，子公司也應該比照公開招考、公開透明。第一個，素質可以提升；第二個，不會有這種私人人事的任用，主委同不同意？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這是公股的人資問題……"],["王委員鴻薇：你是金融監理單位，一大堆這種事情……"],["黃主任委員天牧：當然希望是進用的人適才適所……"],["王委員鴻薇：本來就是要啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：而不是透過裙帶關係進來，大家當然都應該有這個共識。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒錯。時間暫停一下，財團法人金融聯合徵信中心董事長有在現場嗎？請問董事長，你當時說要去聯合徵信中心抓中資，你抓了幾件中資？"],["郭董事長建中：報告委員，我沒有說這種話，而且我也不知道這話從哪邊來的！我從來沒有講過這種話！"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你有沒有抓到什麼中資？好，OK。主委，現在金控除了有我剛才講的任用私人之外，還有一個很大的問題，就是年齡上都超齡了！過去總經理65歲，董事長68歲，現在完全沒有人在遵守！然後70歲也照樣任用，完全破壞規矩！另外，金管會下面有幾個單位來拜訪我，特別講資歷怎樣怎樣，還特別跟我講，在這家公司是從基層做起。我說很好，至少你是有專業的，你也不是政治任命或政治酬庸。今天很不好意思，董事長在現場。董事長在1月份繼續擔任董事長，但你的年齡已經超過65歲，我今天讓你一個人站這邊其實對你有點不好意思。但在公股金控、什麼子公司、銀行，像你這樣狀況的比比皆是，一「拖拉庫」，怎麼金融改革改革成這樣子？我認為金融就應該專業化，所以我不客氣說，董事長，我今天我為什麼請你過來？因為你在這之前都在總統府秘書長林佳龍的臺灣智庫擔任執行長，而且你過去主要是大陸研究所教授。主委，你下面所屬可能的問題我會繼續檢查，看起來大部分都還有專業性，問題沒那麼大。但現在金控就是亂七八糟，搞到年輕人通通都要離開金控公司了，沒有這種道理！同樣的，我會用這樣方式去責成財政部，檢討金控公司這些高層人士的任用問題，不要破壞規矩，而且是一再破壞！上面高層人士這樣任用，甚至政治酬庸，所以下面的也一樣任用私人，我剛剛講了好幾個例子，一個合庫一年被我抓出兩起，不嚴重嗎？非常嚴重！合庫難道不是重要的公股金控公司嗎？同樣的，我也希望金管會轄下的金融機構、相關機關能本於專業、透明、公開且符合相關制度，可不可以？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，我們會朝委員指示的方向去努力，可否讓我講一、兩句話，也許和委員講的不完全一致？我可不可以跟您報告？因為您請郭董事長上來，我必須跟您報告，如果有冒犯您的話，再請您指導。他雖然年紀超過，可是他跟我一起同時擔任，他在永續金融與金融科技方面積極任事，在任期內做了很多、很多事，所以我們是基於他的專業與過去績效前提下同意他續任。這點也許跟您的想法不一樣，但您請他上來，我還是要替他講幾句話。不好意思，向您報告。謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：我已經超時了，召委都站起來了。你的說法我會聽，但我的原則還是希望你們能遵循，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢。接著請陳玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","葛如鈞","邱志偉","黃國昌","林楚茵","羅明才","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":269,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.43596875,"end":1.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.42721875,"end":3.4734687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.342218750000001,"end":6.814718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.35034375,"end":9.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.700343750000002,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.04596875,"end":13.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.83471875,"end":14.745968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.437843750000003,"end":15.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.62346875,"end":15.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.876593750000001,"end":16.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.37846875,"end":17.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.07034375,"end":18.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.67346875,"end":21.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.01909375,"end":23.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.36471875,"end":25.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.49096875,"end":27.149093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.36846875,"end":29.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.66346875,"end":31.469093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.92471875,"end":35.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.56971875,"end":38.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.64096875,"end":39.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.87284375,"end":43.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.867843750000006,"end":46.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.16284375,"end":48.377843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.103468750000005,"end":50.048468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.487218750000004,"end":51.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.018468750000004,"end":53.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.570968750000006,"end":55.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.515968750000006,"end":66.72096875},{"speaker":"SP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Melon簽約"},{"start":54.622,"end":81.041,"text":"那這個在去年踢爆之後我要求金管會必須要做金融檢查因為這個他們內部其實多次的包含跟合庫金控的總公司包含跟金管會來投訴但是一直都沒有處理所以我想請教主委這個你們因為我知道你們已經去做過經檢經檢的結果是怎樣"},{"start":84.711,"end":105.62,"text":"檢查的結果我們對於核庫監控他在集合這個投信的一些做法以及核庫投信做法都有做檢查在12月中那檢查的結果是原則上那三位出國的人基本上應該都不符原來這個基金那個基金公司企業規定出國的人員的資格"},{"start":108.042,"end":121.881,"text":"核酷監控部分可能在集合上面也有就是受檢舉之後去集合其實它的整個集合出來的結果兩次的人力都是相同的我們也提出檢查的意見"},{"start":122.842,"end":138.448,"text":"那至於說合股投信派不符那個契約規定條件的人去去去參訪我們還有這些相關的缺失我們請他內部自行要議署相關實質人員那另外提出整個的改善計劃我們是2月7號發發函的在3個月之內提報董事會之後報經管會好"},{"start":145.265,"end":154.379,"text":"所以這個案子確實核庫投信他們確實有違反相關的規定而且核庫"},{"start":155.646,"end":183.246,"text":"金控的檢查也有瑕疵有不周全的地方所以才在我們金管會再度的去檢查之後發現它裡面確實有缺失那所以你第一個你要求合庫投信要做處理甚至要溢儲那第二個合庫金控總公司的集合他們自己也要有檢討那你剛才說你要讓他們幾月提出相關的結論"},{"start":185.387,"end":187.088,"text":"所以這件事情跟我更早之前一樣的去踢爆何苦"},{"start":205.689,"end":226.111,"text":"合股投信合股金控下面的合股AMC人模不章就是任用私人董事長任用包含他的外甥還有包含他的小三還有包含他的調阿咖還有任用包含他的這個事業夥伴的"},{"start":227.032,"end":250.848,"text":"子女通通放到合庫AMC去那當然在去年合庫AMC也做了一處這幾個人通通滾蛋這連續兩個事情嚴重暴露我們現在的公股事業公股銀行裡面其實他有嚴重的公司治理的問題你同不同意"},{"start":252.762,"end":276.719,"text":"在一年內合庫這麼大的一家公股、金控公司兩個子公司都出現了這個問題這有沒有違反相關的公司治理問題?我們認為金控對子公司的管理部分應該是有問題的當然有問題那只是呢我們的這個合庫"},{"start":278.137,"end":307.344,"text":"金融有這麼大問題照樣升官的升官這個都是很大的問題所以我在這邊雖然這個可能不是我們金管會的一個職權但是呢我會來做推動為了避免我們這些公庫金融公司下面的子公司這些人士裡面會不會有任用私人去藏私人包含自己銀行高層隨便任用"},{"start":308.104,"end":316.991,"text":"甚至我直接說其他的行政官員甚至包含我們院內有沒有立法委員的子女也塞進這些"},{"start":319.127,"end":338.713,"text":"公司裡面寄生公股機構公司那我告訴大家這個是我為什麼進入財政委員會我會特別特別的去把這些抓出來所以我在這邊因為我們有會議記錄我會推動一件事情就是我們現在"},{"start":340.433,"end":353.031,"text":"金控公司裡面的銀行它是過去因為它有制度是公開招考所以它有一定的標準它公開招考至少它要透明公開但它裡面有沒有問題還是有問題啦"},{"start":355.492,"end":384.313,"text":"但是至少他公開招考但是到了子公司的部分就沒有了所以裡面就容易有這些我直接說藏污納垢的現象所以我認為竟然我們銀行有招考子公司也應該比照做公開招考公開透明第一個你數字可以提升第二個你不會有這種私人人士的任用主委你同不同意"},{"start":386.243,"end":389.005,"text":"財團法人金融聯合增信中心董事長有在現場嗎?"},{"start":417.356,"end":444.515,"text":"董事長請問你當時說要去聯合徵信中心你說你要抓中資你抓了幾件中資啊?包括我沒有說這種話而且我也不知道這個話從哪邊來的我從來沒有講過這種話所以你有沒有抓到什麼中資嗎?好OK來那個主委"},{"start":447.793,"end":468.439,"text":"我們現在精通除了我剛才講說有這種任用私人之外還有一個很大的問題就是年齡都根本超齡了過去總經理65、董事長68現在完全沒有人在遵守然後一樣70歲也照樣任用完全破壞規矩另外"},{"start":471.229,"end":490.039,"text":"在我們整個的金管會下面你們有幾個單位來拜訪我特別講他的資歷怎樣怎樣特別跟我講說我就是這家公司我是從基層做起我說很好至少你是有專業的你也不是呢是政治任命或者政治酬庸"},{"start":491.195,"end":517.541,"text":"今天很不好意思董事長在現場董事長1月份繼續擔任董事長但是你的年齡事實上已經超過65歲我今天讓你一個人站這邊其實對你有一點不好意思因為在我們的公股、金控什麼子公司、銀行像你這樣狀況比比皆是一拖拉顧啊我們怎麼金融改革改革成這個樣子呢對不對"},{"start":521.104,"end":544.958,"text":"而且我也認為金融就應該專業化我不客氣說董事長我今天為什麼請你過來因為你過去你長期你在這個之前你都是在我們現在林佳龍是總統府秘書長嘛都在他臺灣智庫的執行長嘛而且你主要的是過去是大陸研究所教授所以"},{"start":547.174,"end":559.186,"text":"現在主委啊你下面的可能問題我都有會繼續檢查還沒有那麼大我看起來大部分呢都還是有他的專業性"},{"start":561.604,"end":581.774,"text":"但是我們的現在金控就是亂七八糟完全沒有過去所以搞到年輕人通通都要離開我們的金控公司沒有這種道理所以同樣的我會用這樣方式去責成財政部檢討他金控公司這些高層人士的任用"},{"start":582.654,"end":598.401,"text":"不要這樣的破壞規矩一再的破壞上面高層人士任用甚至政治仇傭下面呢大家也一樣任用私人我剛講了好幾個例子一個何苦一年被我抓出兩起不嚴重嗎?非常嚴重欸"},{"start":599.662,"end":620.156,"text":"何故難道不是很重要的重要的一個公股、金控公司嗎?所以同樣的,我也希望金管會下面、轄下的這些金融機構、相關機構,你們也等於專業、透明、公開,而且要符合相關的制度,可不可以?"},{"start":621.184,"end":641.565,"text":"是,我們會朝委員指示的方向去努力我這邊可不可以我講一兩句話但是跟委員講的也許不完全一致可不可以我可以跟您報告因為您請郭董事長上來我必須要跟您報告如果有冒犯您,您再指導他雖然年紀超過可是他在他任期"},{"start":642.406,"end":663.681,"text":"我跟我一起同時擔任他在永續金融跟金融科技方面真的是積極認識做了很多很多事所以我們是在他的專業跟過去績效的前提之下才同意他續任的我這點也許跟您的想法不一樣我還是要再因為您請他上來我還是要替他講幾句話不好意思跟您報告謝謝"},{"start":665.598,"end":681.508,"text":"因為我已經超時了你看我們的召委都已經站起來了你的說法我會聽但是我的這個原則還是希望能夠你們能夠遵循謝謝謝謝委員知道謝謝王宏偉委員的質詢接著我們請陳玉珍委員"}]}},{"id":"149228","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149228","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd8e17a7eef0cd2876e0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a61e89c52ab37a9fb15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:11:59 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10:23:19","影片長度":"00:11:20","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":680,"end_time":"2024-03-04T10:23:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T10:11:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":336,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時11分）謝謝主席。有請主委，還有銀行局局長。"],["主席：有請主委以及銀行局局長。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早！"],["賴委員惠員：主委早！我想今天跟你探討在2005年發生的雙卡風暴，主委，有沒有印象？就是借錢不用利息，結果養出了70萬的卡奴。從1999年萬泰銀行發行喬治瑪莉現金卡以後，因為審核的條件非常的鬆散，所以到了2003年我們就發現了發行現金卡的銀行就高達27家，總卡量竟然達到了250萬張，到了2005年國內的卡奴暴增到70萬人，到了2007年銀行的逾放比率將近5%，每個月打銷的呆帳金額就高達百億元。主委，有沒有印象？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這是我們金融監理的一個重要借鑑。"],["賴委員惠員：是，好。再請問主委，租賃業放款的業務是不是歸金管會來管？"],["黃主任委員天牧：不是。"],["賴委員惠員：不是喔！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["賴委員惠員：那你認為應不應該由你們來管？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個跟金管會組織條例的定位是不一樣的，因為租賃業或是放貸業務是根據民法去處理的，它是公司法第十五條去處理的。"],["賴委員惠員：好，主委，我也相信你一定會跟我講不是歸你管，因為你們現在有很多的作為看不出來是歸你們管。我想民間的租賃非金管會來管轄是肯定的，在法律上是正確的，金管會7月27日在記者會上面也有講得非常清楚，租賃業是民間的借貸，應該是由消費者保護機制來處理，甚至你是講提高監督的管理對消費者未必是有利。如果我們從司法院的裁判書裡頭去查詢，光是去年中租迪和債務人聲請債務更生案件就比前年多了80件，現在是131件，顯然這個已經成為一個很嚴重的社會問題了，主委，你怎麼看這個事情？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想不論在社群媒體上或是外界關心或是委員的垂詢上，我們當然也注意到這個問題，但是這個部分其實在相關的法律中都有規定，比方重利或者非法催收或者資訊揭露，都有相關的法律可以規定……"],["賴委員惠員：好，主委，我再讓你看到另外一張圖，這個是裕富公司整理出來的，包括國內前三大租賃業者放貸的條件，不管在放款的利率、期限，還有放款的資格，它都做了比較。主委，你從這一張圖裡頭看到了什麼樣的問題？再下一張，為什麼一定要由金管會來管？這個利息該如何管？一隻牛要剝兩層皮，這個惡性循環！我們從上一張圖所看到的就是租賃業裡頭所顯現出來的放款利率、期限，還有放款的資格。主委，我們看到了它的利率從12%到15.75%，這麼高的利率！你還不管嗎？我們甚至還看到了中租有一個專門針對年輕人的中租輪你貸款契約裡頭，消費者延遲繳款的時候，必須要被收取更多的利息，接近33%，我相信看到這個33%你應該是會非常震撼的，是不是？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這個利率因為現在民法最高是16%，您說的那個利率會不會可能是累積的、延滯的？我跟您報告，在去年年初所謂的先買後付（BNPL）開始盛行，我們其實就有列出一個從銀行監理上要注意的原則，包括資訊揭露，給租賃公會，請它要會員去參考。"],["賴委員惠員：好，對，這個就是我下面要跟您討論的。租賃公司瞄準了學生及信用額度低的群眾作為主要的受眾，等於是他們的對象，其實這些人基本上是比較沒有還款能力的，為什麼他們會針對這些人？因為他們不需要去徵信他的財力。身為金管會，我們也知道為了避免學生面臨到債務的風險，所以你在「信用卡業務機構管理辦法」第二十三條有規定禁止對學生行銷，還有一個2萬元額度的上限，問題是租賃公司是不做財務調查的，不做信用調查的，這該怎麼辦呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我不太確定您說的他們不做財務或信用調查，因為我們也瞭解他們也表達他們會做，而且我們去年年初……"],["賴委員惠員：他們是不做的，我跟你說，主委，他們是不做的，你是不是要讓局長來替你回答？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，請局長跟您報告，謝謝。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，確實租賃公司是沒有辦法做到像銀行這樣的徵信，因為銀行是可以參與聯徵……"],["賴委員惠員：主委，所以你有聽到了喔！"],["莊局長琇媛：不過我要說明的就是他們原則上會去查一些中華徵信的資料，然後用這些資料還有借款人的一些行為……"],["賴委員惠員：我跟你講，租賃公司的貸款是不跟聯徵掛鉤的，它怎麼查呢？它只是意思意思告訴你，我想你們沒有深入這些問題，也一直在迴避這些問題。","主委，我再請你看到下一張圖，為什麼請你們一定要管？因為如果你不管的話，你自己的銀行也受到影響，銀行助紂為虐啊！業者向銀行貸款取得資金，然後破產會引發蝴蝶效應。我想你從這張圖裡頭非常清楚地看到了到113年1月底8家公股銀行對融資公司的貸款餘額就是在這裡，高達了1,268億，如果業者因為延滯率過高、資金沒有辦法取得來償還銀行的貸款，是不是會導致銀行的風險增加呢？會不會？主委，你怎麼看？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這些額度不見得都是做BNPL的，它有可能是商業性租賃的。"],["賴委員惠員：非常好喔！主委，你這樣講喔！未來如果有相對的這些風險產生的時候，我希望你也可以講相對的問題，我今天跟你探討的就是這可能延伸出來的一些問題，我們該怎麼樣去管理，而不是撇清啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們沒有撇清，這些上市公司，其實證交所也都有做一些查核。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你認為沒有問題？你再看實質的一個擔保品，甚至是一台舊式的車子都可以，一台摩托車都可以貸到30萬，你請你下面的人在網路上抓給你看，你在網路上就可以輕易的、很快的找到，一台摩托車可以借30萬，一台超過15年的汽車可以借到80萬這樣的廣告，況且特別標註免財力。主委，這個非常可怕，你要正視這些問題啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：我瞭解，謝謝委員的提醒，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：那怎麼辦呢？我現在跟你提醒了，你該怎麼做呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們會參考……"],["賴委員惠員：況且很可怕的是他們的商品貸，商品貸其實是一個謊、是一個騙局啊！核准了以後，業務員告訴貸款的學生或是貸款人：等一下有人會打電話問你，你就說：「喔，有，我確實有買了一個60吋的商品」，還是「我有買了一個手機」，還是「我有買了一個鉑金包」。這個是很嚴重、很嚴重，每天一直在我們四周圍發生的一些金融傷害問題。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員提到的一些個案當然非常重要，但是對這幾家您所提到的公司，其實我們也做過瞭解，我們沒有完全置之度外。"],["賴委員惠員：是，所以我想主委也看到了這個事情的嚴重性，我希望主委在1個月後提出一個比較完整的說明給本席，因為現在民間的租賃業者已經逐漸步入了20年前雙卡風暴的各家銀行的後塵。同時根據2021年金管會的統計，當時旗下擁有或是轉投資租賃業的銀行跟金控才14家，這些業者受到金管會的監督，但不是金管會旗下的租賃業者，反而成為不受你監督的影子銀行，這個影子銀行其實會造成社會很大的亂象跟金融風暴，所以我希望主委再給本席一份資料，說明未來如何統一納管，最好就是在520以前。不過，我也是看好520以後你應該會繼續在這個位置。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，前提納管好像不是金管會……不過怎麼樣讓市場的秩序能夠更上軌道，我們可以朝這個方面跨部會再研究。"],["賴委員惠員：好。"],["黃主任委員天牧：可不可以？是不是可以跟委員請示這樣？"],["賴委員惠員：是，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員的質詢，接著請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","葛如鈞","邱志偉","黃國昌","林楚茵","羅明才","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":269,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":2.0559687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.27534375,"end":4.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.45221875,"end":7.759718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.19846875,"end":9.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.30784375,"end":17.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.294093750000002,"end":17.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.58096875,"end":21.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.63096875,"end":23.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.824718750000002,"end":26.828468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.199718750000002,"end":29.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.42721875,"end":31.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","s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要注意的原則包括資訊的接觸給主任工會請他去要會員去做參考就是說"},{"start":286.238,"end":309.928,"text":"主任公司他瞄準了學生他的信用額度低的一個群眾作為主要的一個受眾受眾的一個那個他們的一個等於是他們的一個對象那其實這些人就是一個基本上比較沒有還款能力的那為什麼他們會針對這些人因為他不需要去徵信他的財力"},{"start":311.601,"end":338.822,"text":"那如果你身為就是這個金管會我們也知道說你為了避免學生面臨到債務的一個風險所以你在信用卡業務機構的一個管理辦法裡頭第23條你有規定禁止對學生做行銷那況且你還有一個2萬元的額度的上限那問題就是說你的主任公司他是不做財務的一個調查的不做信用的一個調查的那這該怎麼辦呢"},{"start":340.322,"end":357.752,"text":"法委員我不太確定您說的他不做財務或信用調查因為我們也有瞭解他們也表達他們也表達他們可能會做而且我們去年年初他們是不做的我跟你說主委他們是不做的你是不是要讓局長來好請局長跟您報告謝謝"},{"start":360.267,"end":388.386,"text":"報告委員,確實租賃公司是沒有辦法做到像銀行這樣的徵信,因為銀行是可以參與連徵。所以主委你有聽到了?不過我要說明的就是說,他們原則上他們會去查一些中華徵信的一些資料,然後用這些資料還有一些就是借款人想的一些行為。我跟你講租賃公司的貸款他是不跟那個連徵掛鉤的,他怎麼查勒?"},{"start":390.387,"end":409.665,"text":"他只是意思意思就是告訴你我想你們沒有深入這些問題那你們也一直就是在迴避這些問題那就是說主委我再請你看到下一張圖為什麼就是說請你們一定要管因為如果你不管的話你自己的銀行也受到影響"},{"start":411.573,"end":433.395,"text":"這個銀行助紂為虐業者向銀行貸款取得資金然後這個資產這個這個破產會引發蝴蝶效應我想你從這張圖裡頭非常清楚的看到了到113年的一月底八家公股銀行對融資公司你們的貸款的餘額就是在這裡"},{"start":434.946,"end":455.869,"text":"在這裡這高達了1268億如果業者因為研製力過高的話資金沒有辦法取得那償還銀行的貸款是不是會導致銀行的風險增加呢?會不會?主委報委員這些額度不見得都是做您的PNPL的他有可能商業性的租賃的"},{"start":457.059,"end":482.902,"text":"非常好喔主委你這樣講齁那在未來如果有相對的這一些風險產生的時候我希望你也可以講相對的一個問題我今天跟你探討了就是說這可能延伸出來的一些問題我們該怎麼樣去管理而不是撇清啊我們沒有撇清其實這些上市公司其實證交所也都有做一些查核"},{"start":484.403,"end":505.841,"text":"所以你認為沒有問題你再看下一張這個實質的一個那個單保品他甚至一台舊式的一個車子他都可以一個摩托車他都可以帶到30萬你甚至在網路上你請你的那個下面下面的人抓給你看你在網路上你輕易你就可以"},{"start":506.502,"end":530.507,"text":"很快的就是找到了一台摩托車可以借30萬一台超過15年的汽車可以借到80萬這樣的一個廣告況且他特別跟你標註免財力免財力這非常可怕主委你要正視這些問題啊我了解謝謝委員的提醒謝謝那怎麼辦呢我現在跟你提醒了那你該怎麼做呢"},{"start":531.664,"end":560.348,"text":"況且他們很可怕的就是說他們商品的一個商品袋商品袋其實是一個謊是一個騙局他核准了以後業務員告訴了這個貸款的學生還是這個貸款人他說等一下有人會打電話問你你就說我確實有買了一個60吋的商品還是我有買了一個手機還是我有買了一個薄金包"},{"start":562.115,"end":584.048,"text":"這個是很嚴重很嚴重每天就是在我們四周圍就一直在發生的一些金融傷害的一個問題主委委員您提的一些個案當然非常的重要但是我們對這幾家您所提到的這些公司其實我們也做過了解我們沒有說完全就是置之度外"},{"start":585.629,"end":613.601,"text":"所以就是說我想這個主委你也看到了這個事情的一個嚴重性所以在最後一頁那我希望就是主委在一個月後你提出了一個比較完整的一個說明給本席那因為現在民間的主任業者已經逐漸步入了20年前雙卡風暴的一個各家銀行的一個後塵同時我們根據2021年金管會的一個統計"},{"start":614.901,"end":614.961,"text":"主席"},{"start":643.142,"end":650.776,"text":"給本席一份資料就是說未來如何統一的一個納管那最好就是在520以前不過我也是看好520以後你應該會繼續在這個位置"},{"start":654.258,"end":654.478,"text":"王洪威議員"}]}},{"id":"149227","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149227","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd43f9bdc83d3fe490e0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a62e6298c9cb56e18f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:59:15 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10:11:19","影片長度":"00:12:04","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":724,"end_time":"2024-03-04T10:11:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T09:59:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":244,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時59分）謝謝主席。有請黃天牧黃主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：召委早。"],["郭委員國文：主委，你的任期未必到519吧？我們可以好好來討論一下。最近在休會期間，有一件新聞事件浮上新聞報導的版面當中，也就是新光人壽的議題。新光目前為止與三商美邦都是未達標的狀態，一個是不足，一個是屬於嚴重不足。這種情況底下，保險局有要求它每半年終了2個月要更新財務狀況，理當去年的下半年就應該要報到了，不曉得這個資料最新的狀況如何？"],["黃主任委員天牧：去年底的財報要到3月底會計師簽證查核才會出來。"],["郭委員國文：我是說，它那個時候每年度……像在這邊有講說……"],["黃主任委員天牧：自結的部分應該有。"],["郭委員國文：對，自結的部分應該有，那要不要說一下現在的狀況如何？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個請……新光這兩個應該還是跟現況差不多吧。"],["郭委員國文：還是差不多？"],["黃主任委員天牧：請局長說明……"],["郭委員國文：也就是說，一個是有關法定標準RBC的部分，新光目前也不足，然後三商美邦當然也是顯著不足，淨值比來講，兩家都不足嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：局長提供的資訊，還是跟您右邊的……"],["郭委員國文：都一樣。"],["黃主任委員天牧：都一樣。"],["郭委員國文：跟表格都一樣？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["郭委員國文：好，如果都在未達標的情況底下，我想我們保險法第一百四十六條、第一百四十三條之六，對於資本不足的措施，跟資本顯著不足的部分都有相關的作為，可是在報章媒體上，對於新光的部分，最清楚的部分就是要求它增資嘛！因為增資的部分，一來一往、來來回回好多次嘛！最主要是這個部分嘛！","那到目前為止，透過新光金要認股新光人壽70億的部分，有比較具體的進度嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們在1月22號、23號有發函，他們在2月22號、23號有回函，有提出一些增資的計畫，我們正在研究中、正在處理中。"],["郭委員國文：可是這個增資的計畫，從112年到114年理當每年都要增資70億，而這70億是屬於去年應該要有的責任，不是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，他去年其實還差15億。"],["郭委員國文：對，還有差嘛！還未達嘛！這三年間總共要210億耶！到目前為止……"],["黃主任委員天牧：那是就原有的經營團隊對保險局、金管會的承諾，但是跟他今年6月底RBC達到200，這中間還是有距離的。"],["郭委員國文：還有距離？距離大概是多少？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這要看他自己經營的績效。"],["郭委員國文：我覺得就是預估啦！依照目前這個時間點，你有沒有算過？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我可能不太有這個數字。"],["郭委員國文：那你們再推一下，再算給本席知道。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好。"],["郭委員國文：但是資本不足的部分，至少要達到五項之多啦！在媒體的部分，我看到的就是只有一項增資，其他的部分有沒有進行任何的要求跟作為？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，保險局跟銀行局都不斷地在跟他們溝通。"],["郭委員國文：就是所有法令上要求的這些措施同時都有進行？"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前還是在做監理上的溝通中，還沒有依照第一百四十三條之六做到相關的規定。"],["郭委員國文：都還沒有？像所謂的限制資金、運用範圍……"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有，這個還沒有，要看它整個增資的表現。"],["郭委員國文：就是說循序漸進，依照它的反應來看看，等增資之後，後續再要求。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["郭委員國文：同樣的道理，對資本顯著不足的部分呢？資本顯著不足的部分，我剛剛稍微抓了一下，資本不足的部分就有五項，資本顯著不足的部分如果包括資本不足的部分都要一併處理的話，起碼就有十項之多，那對這些顯著不足的要怎麼處理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個應該都有處理，是不是請局長報告一下？"],["郭委員國文：好，施局長。"],["施局長瓊華：跟委員報告，資本顯著不足我們也有一些措施，三商有提出一些財、業務改善計畫……"],["郭委員國文：我看一看，三商這個部分已經快2年了未達標耶，局長！"],["施局長瓊華：但是他提的計畫裡面，除了現金增資之外，現金增資大概每一次都有達到標準。"],["郭委員國文：那有沒有出售資產？"],["施局長瓊華：出售資產的部分，有一些像不動產的部分，他們到現在還在賣。另外就是，他們有要找策略性投資人……"],["郭委員國文：局長，我不要浪費太多時間，就針對這兩個公司因應要求的措施狀況怎麼樣給我一個書面。"],["施局長瓊華：是。"],["郭委員國文：我想對保戶來說，最關心的部分就是這家公司的未來會怎麼樣是比較關鍵，然後新光金當然也有提出一個方式，就是有關「死利差互抵責任準備金」的部分，好像已經被金管會公然否決掉了，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這個其實沒有正當性，當然也是2000年初因為低利率的環境，造成保險公司的一些困境，所以才用當時的權宜措施互抵。其實這個錢本來是保戶的錢，所以後來在這個措施之後，這個錢還是應該以保戶為前提，而不應該分給這個……"],["郭委員國文：不是在解決公司的問題啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["郭委員國文：所以這種情況底下，這個提案不行。在這種情況底下，主委，如果我沒有記錯的話，之前你對整個寬容的措施就做了不少。新光透過資產重分配就讓它淨值增加了386億，可是到了第三季的時候，它又虧損，剩下148億。然後，如果再加上隱性的虧損、未列舉的俄羅斯公債，再加上它未來還要接軌IFRS 17等等幾個要件，如果還加上手頭上現在資金210億還沒有達標，你認為新光人壽現在的這種狀況底下，最壞的狀況是如何？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們沒辦法去評估什麼是最壞的，我想我們應該是掌握現在去跟相關的……"],["郭委員國文：你一直要求要自救啊！你才能……"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為現在的經營團隊必須自己提出相關的、能夠改善公司清償能力的方案，主管機關才會考量其他的措施，而不能夠逕自要求主管機關先提寬容，這跟其他業者的做法是不一樣的。"],["郭委員國文：所以短期內你就是要求它自救，不可再進行任何寬容措施就是了嘛！簡單講就是這樣，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：先把它對原有經營團隊每年70億，以及我們要求他在今年6月RBC到200，這些都要提出可行的計畫。"],["郭委員國文：這邊達成以後其他的再說？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其他再說吧！"],["郭委員國文：萬一是他都沒有達成的情況呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想我們會依法辦理。"],["郭委員國文：就是依法辦理，也就是依照剛剛的要求，一個一個加重處理就是了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想我們會依法辦理，但是什麼情況，我們不能預測啦！"],["郭委員國文：我看可能你要有最糟的打算，我看這種情況，不論是舊團隊也好、新團隊也好，基本上看起來都拿不出新的資金來源。","另外一個部分，主委你剛剛在報告有特別提到關於虛擬資產的部分，本席也要就教你虛擬資產的部分。在去年9月已經列出了指導原則，今年9月專法的研究會出爐嗎？主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["郭委員國文：依照這種狀況，整個虛擬資產姑且不論它有沒有內在價值，可是虛擬資產這種代幣的管理以及未來區塊鏈的問題，跟你剛剛所說的，要把整個實質資產代幣化，這部分其實基本上都有雷同，也就是這個管理的專法，或許將來也可以套用在其他代幣的可能性上，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我跟委員報告，因為這個專法有在學術團隊研究，但是我們當初給他的指示是就現在虛擬資產的投資人保護方面跟發展上能夠做什麼去擬專法，跟我剛剛跟你報告的金融資產RWA代幣化，兩個的邏輯是不完全一樣的……"],["郭委員國文：不完全相同？"],["黃主任委員天牧：而且各國對那個部分都還在試驗階段，所以還早。"],["郭委員國文：好，如果沒有完全一樣，雷同的部分也可以讓制度有一個延伸性的做法，但是短期內你現在用一個所謂的指導原則來處理的話，目前為止依照現階段，金管會所動用的都是有關洗防法裡頭的子法來處理。如果以它的整個交易行為，不論是保管的行為，或者是買賣的行為，或者本身代幣的行為，都隱含著銀行法或者是期貨交易法等等的狀況。有沒有就既有的法令條款來進行對接的可能性？有沒有可能？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想跟您報告，我剛剛有一點沒有報告完，就是這些虛幣的主要業者其實滿願意成立公會，用自力的方式去處理的，所以那些原則是可以透過我們的溝通去完成。但是您剛剛垂詢的……對不起，您剛剛問的是……"],["郭委員國文：公會的部分……"],["黃主任委員天牧：銀行的部分跟傳統金融的部分，這部分要很小心，因為去年3月美國幾個銀行發生問題，其實也都是因為它跟虛幣之間的業務聯繫而讓民眾產生一些聯想，所以傳統金融的部分跟虛幣部分的連結，這部分銀行局也會特別去注意，目前是還沒有特別緊密的連結。"],["郭委員國文：我是說，以傳統金融業管理法令的架構當中，有沒有哪些條款可以進行修法，然後適用於整個虛擬貨幣的管理？我的意思是這樣子。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，我跟您報告，現在的立法方向就是專法，不會連結到現有的其他……"],["郭委員國文：就是跟既有的法令架構……"],["黃主任委員天牧：是切割的。"],["郭委員國文：就是直接朝向專法，而不是就單條條文去修正，方向是朝向這個部分？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，有些在建立理念上是可以移植，但是法律的獨立性上是專法。"],["郭委員國文：好，最後我們來談談520之後的事情好了。因為520之後新的總統大選當選人有提出六大金融政見，雖然520之後的主委是不是姓黃我不清楚，但是在這一段時間的看守內閣當中，主委是不是應該有一些責任及看法，將當選人未來的整個主張在金管會的職責當中做一些準備？一個就是投資於公共設施，第二個就是資產的管理中心，普惠金融你已經在進行了，還有永續金融你剛剛有報告，看起來好像有幾項還沒有的。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員給我這個機會，其實在選前及選後我們對於各黨派總統候選人的政見都有去研究，選後特別對賴副總統的這六項政見都有研究，我有交代同仁就相關重要的一些議題先做好研究，將來等新的主委上任之後，再加入他的理念，就可以推出。"],["郭委員國文：這些研究的內容約莫什麼時候可以出來？"],["黃主任委員天牧：最近都在做，比方資產管理這些我們還可以做哪些事情，公共建設資金本來就有在做了，還有金融科技，我覺得都有在做，只是請同仁更著墨一下我們還能再做哪些事情……"],["郭委員國文：我們能不能設定一個時間點，把你們提供的建議讓我們知道？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們當然就是520之前會把能夠做的事情先盤點出來……"],["郭委員國文：我們能不能4月底之前，不要等到520？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，4月底之前。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席（郭委員國文）：接著請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","葛如鈞","邱志偉","黃國昌","林楚茵","羅明才","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":269,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.41034375,"end":3.2372187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.87846875,"end":6.494093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.48971875,"end":9.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.700343750000002,"end":21.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.33971875,"end":46.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.30221875,"end":46.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.12909375,"end":53.946593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.423468750000005,"end":58.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.000968750000006,"end":57.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.11471875,"end":58.367843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.367843750000006,"end":58.587218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.587218750000005,"end":58.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.62096875,"end":63.41346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.12221875,"end":65.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.45534375,"end":70.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.94846875,"end":80.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.66409375,"end":79.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.25471875000001,"end":85.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.01784375000001,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.36346875000001,"end":117.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.53159375000001,"end":120.28221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.83909375,"end":120.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.15971875000001,"end":130.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.66034375,"end":140.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.46471875,"end":143.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.97909375,"end":149.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.00409375,"end":145.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.32409375,"end":158.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.60534375,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.51221875000002,"end":162.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.60471875000002,"end":166.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.72284375,"end":162.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAK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如果是沒有完全一樣部分雷同的部分也可以讓制度有一個延伸性的做法但是短期內你現在用一個所謂的指導原則的部分來處理的話那目前為止依照現階段金管會所動用的都是有關於洗房法裡頭的一個執法的部分來處理"},{"start":527.125,"end":545.374,"text":"那如果說以他的整個交易行為不論是保管的行為或者是買賣的行為或者本身的代幣的這個行為都有隱含著銀行法或者期貨交易法等等的一種狀況有沒有可能就既有的法令當中的條款當中來進行來對接的可能性有沒有可能?"},{"start":546.584,"end":561.357,"text":"我想跟您報告就是我剛有一點剛才沒有報告完就是其實現在這個虛幣的主要業者其實蠻願意成立工會用自力的方式去處理所以那些原則是可以透過我們的溝通跟去完成那"},{"start":564.86,"end":590.359,"text":"銀行部份跟傳統金融部份這部份要很小心因為其實去年3月美國幾個銀行發生問題也都是因為他跟虛幣之間的業務聯繫而產生產生一些民眾的一些聯想所以傳統金融部分跟虛幣部分的連結這部分銀行局也會特別去注意目前是還沒有特別緊密的連結"},{"start":591.78,"end":619.39,"text":"以傳統的金融業的部分的一個管理的法令的架構當中有沒有哪些條款可以進行修法然後來適用於整個虛擬的貨幣的管理我意思是這樣子對我跟您報告現在的方向立法方向就是專法不會連結到現有的其他作用法就是跟既有的法令的架構有一個隔離就你就直接朝向專法而不是單條的條文來做修正的方向有些理念上建立理念上是可以移植但是法律的獨立性上是專法"},{"start":620.37,"end":646.83,"text":"好那最後我們來談談520之後的事情好了啦那因為呢我們520之後新的總統當選人他有提出六大的一個金融政見雖然520之後的那個黃主委是不是姓黃我不清楚主委姓黃是不清楚但是主委在這段時間的一個看守內閣當中是不是應該有一些責任跟看法將未來的整個當選人的這一個主張在從金管會的職責當中做一些準備"},{"start":647.932,"end":659.282,"text":"一個就是投資於公共設施第二個就是資產管理中心普惠金融已經在進行還有永續金融剛剛也有報告看起來好像有幾項還有還沒有的"},{"start":661.034,"end":683.635,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會其實在選前跟選後我們對於各黨派的總統候選人的政見都有去研究那選後特別對賴副總統的政見這六項政見都有研究我有交代同仁就相關重要的一些議題先做好研究那將來等新的主委上任之後再加速他的理念就可以推出這些研究的內容什麼時候原末可以出來"},{"start":685.526,"end":711.434,"text":"最近都在做比方說像資產管理這些這些這些我們還可以做哪些事情那公共建設資金本來就有在做了那金融科技我覺得都有在做那只是說請同仁更琢磨一下我們還能再做哪些事情我們能不能設定一個時間點把你們提供的建議讓我們知道我們當然就是520之前會把能夠做的先盤點出來4月底之前不要等到520好4月底之前好謝謝主委謝謝好謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"149226","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149226","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddf1d4384ce3e8b635e0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a68e43617b4878f6c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:47:26 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09:59:07","影片長度":"00:11:41","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":701,"end_time":"2024-03-04T09:59:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T09:47:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":162,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時47分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請黃天牧主委。"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：主委早。最近我的服務處接到三則被詐騙的案子，我特別提出來就是因為我看了很難過，他們一輩子的積蓄幾乎就這樣被騙光了，第三個被騙了三千多萬，來了我的服務處6次，我該做的、能做的都做了，包括怎麼樣找刑事警察局、金管會等等的，但是好像到現在為止就是一籌莫展了。","我仔細看一下刑事警察局的統計，去年整年度的被詐騙金額有88億，詐騙案的前三名中，第一個是假投資，占了六成以上；第二個是假網拍；第三個是解除分期付款。這個完全都是金管會可以管得到的、可以幫忙的地方啊！比如現在變成大家透過平臺去join那些所謂的投資，教你怎麼賺錢、加LINE或是加名人、加什麼的，我知道像黃主委也被冒名過了，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該有。"],["賴委員士葆：有嘛！還有其他人也被冒名了之類的啊！我就在想，與其讓當事人或者其他的單位、刑事警察局去盯著看，其實你的證交所、你的櫃買中心，人都不少啊！能不能叫他們每天盯著看，可不可以？一有就處理，一有就處理。就現在來看的話，都是金管會的事情。主委，我是在替你當子彈，因為陳情人對我痛罵金管會主委，他也不知道你姓什麼，我還不好意思說你姓黃，他就說金管會都沒在做事情。你看六成都是假投資，交易所的簡總經理與櫃買的陳董事長要不要上來一下？"],["黃主任委員天牧：在他們上來中間我跟您報告……"],["賴委員士葆：好，你報告。"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實這兩個交易所一直有在蒐報，報告中也寫了，從去年3、4月到今年已經有2萬8,000件，但這個平臺還需要跨部會合作，像Google與Meta採實名制，這些都在努力中。"],["賴委員士葆：請兩位長官回答我的問題，有沒有派專人，可能不止一個，可能不止二個，派專人每天盯這些平臺？有沒有？有沒有？先回答這問題。"],["簡總經理立忠：跟委員報告，交易所有專人在做這個……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有每天盯？"],["簡總經理立忠：有、有。"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有每天出報告？"],["簡總經理立忠：持續發現案子就會移送給檢查局、給主管機關……"],["賴委員士葆：你們上個月移送多少？幾件？"],["簡總經理立忠：到2月29日為止，我的統計是1萬4,000……"],["賴委員士葆：一萬四千多件？"],["簡總經理立忠：對。"],["賴委員士葆：櫃買呢？你蒐了多少？"],["陳董事長永誠：到2月27日是1萬1,634件。"],["賴委員士葆：你們兩個當然是確定、每天都有在看？"],["陳董事長永誠：對。"],["賴委員士葆：有一個一萬多，另一個也一萬多？"],["陳董事長永誠：對。"],["賴委員士葆：請主委回答，我資質駑鈍。移送這麼多，為什麼都沒辦法查出這裡的名堂什麼之類的？為什麼沒有辦法有效阻斷？行政院陳院長喊得很大聲，花了13億，喊打喊殺說要打詐，結果詐越打越多！你看這曲線圖，這是聯合報的曲線圖，你看到，越來越多！件數越來越多啊！沒有效啊！但你們取締了不少。黃主委，詐騙絕對跟金流有關係，絕對跟你的管區有關係，你會不會覺得你少做了一件什麼事？有沒有？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實我們蒐報、報到刑事局之後，重點是要他下架，他要在24小時之內下架！可是下架之後，他又透過其他管道再上來！所以查完之後，他還會再上來……"],["賴委員士葆：下架不能夠處罰嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有，處罰的前提必須是他不下架，我們才能處罰，他下架就不能處罰，這是法律上的規定。另外一個重點是，將來透過平臺Google與Meta實名制，現在用實名制……"],["賴委員士葆：你可以不可以要求……因為上架的大部分都和投顧有關，投顧也是你管的啊……"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，其實真正的投顧不會做這些事……"],["賴委員士葆：假投顧可以啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：假的……不管是不是投顧，他就是詐欺集團，不是真正的投顧……"],["賴委員士葆：你沒辦法……"],["黃主任委員天牧：6月底會有實名制，將來如果在平臺上廣告，用實名就可以追索。"],["賴委員士葆：我請問你，被詐騙的金額大概可以追回來多少？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這要刑事局才有資料。"],["賴委員士葆：我得到的資料是不超過一成，幾乎都血本無歸！是overall！譬如88億最多才追回來8億，而且不知道什麼時候才追得到！碰到這樣的案子真的很難過，當事人都想自殺了，三千多萬！主委，你腦筋很好，再多想一想，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員，我想我們對於……"],["賴委員士葆：有效阻止啦，你這裡扮演很多角色……"],["黃主任委員天牧：數位部……從今年6月開始，這兩個平臺願意用實名制來……"],["賴委員士葆：第二個，我跟你談一下臺股。最近臺股嚇嚇叫，漲到一萬九千多，是不是已經正式進入牛市？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們不太適合去判斷牛市或熊市，我想台股有基本面是事實。"],["賴委員士葆：牛市怎麼判斷？"],["黃主任委員天牧：大概是在一定期間漲……"],["賴委員士葆：20%！但現在不只漲20%了！如果一段時間內不只漲20%，從1萬7,000到1萬9,000就差不多20%了，何況是從1萬5,000、6,000漲到1萬9,000？20%怎麼不是呢？所以你還不敢講牛市？"],["黃主任委員天牧：國際政經情況多變，我們還是要審慎以對。"],["賴委員士葆：基本面很好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是有基本面，我沒有說……"],["賴委員士葆：整體台股的本益比有多少？"],["黃主任委員天牧：21.17倍。"],["賴委員士葆：OK嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我覺得還算穩健，還算穩健。"],["賴委員士葆：美國道瓊的本益比多少？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我沒聽清楚。"],["賴委員士葆：美國道瓊的本益比多少？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個要請同仁提供一下，多少？24.06。"],["賴委員士葆：所以臺灣本益比不高？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，從這個角度……"],["賴委員士葆：意思就是還可能會漲？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，監理機關不太適合對漲跌有太多的……"],["賴委員士葆：本來就是這樣，本益比低就是要漲，就是這樣。但是你仔細看就會發現，漲幅都是靠AI跟台積電相關的電子族群，其他的族群很少，也就是不夠平均。這讓外界有點擔心我們的資本市場，特別是股票市場扭曲的現象還滿嚴重的！怎麼大家的資金都一窩蜂擠到電子相關產業？有些電子的本益比都很高了，電子公司的本益比都非常高。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：本益比高，風險當然就高啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，您說的是一個事實，可是另外一個事實是：台股30年來的發展中，臺灣證券交易所的市場結構半導體電子就占一半，所以這是反映它的產業結構。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你不敢說後市怎麼樣，但就本益比來說臺灣OK，還不算高，所以是juicy，值得投資，可以吧？我做這結論？"],["黃主任委員天牧：投不投資還是看投資人的決定，就是要注意風險，而且台股有基本面……"],["賴委員士葆：好，最後一題，也是很重要的題目。金融營業稅今年底到期，我們現在是5%，其中3%給財政部，2%進入金融業特別準備金，現在有將近3,500億。金管會對於今年底到期的這個法要怎麼修？有沒有方向？"],["黃主任委員天牧：第一個，這是財政部主管，我們要尊重財政部……"],["賴委員士葆：問你的態度！我問了財政部，財政部說問你！"],["黃主任委員天牧：我的任期到5月19日，所以由下一任主委來回答會比較合適。真的，我不是不願意回答你，我不應該超越我的……"],["賴委員士葆：後面的媒體都笑出來了！好歹你要離開之前做一件大事吧？這件不是大事？這個是大事！"],["黃主任委員天牧：這應該是520後的財政部才能做的事。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，你的態度非常重要。我找了財政部，財政部告訴我，金管會的態度非常重要。當然，行政院相關政委的態度也很重要……"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，其實我的態度，過去在您垂詢或其他委員垂詢時我有報告過，現在我們跟國際趨勢是不符的，所以希望能夠降低。但原有準備金的部分希望能夠留著。"],["賴委員士葆：準備金已經3,500億了，臺灣現在都已經控制這麼好了，逾放比這麼低，老實講用不太到了，這個多餘了！你的意思我有問出來了，我站了老半天好歹總要問出一個東西。你說調降，降多少可以說嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們希望能夠適度調降，但尊重財政部。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道，但是你的本意很重要。好，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席（賴委員惠員代）：接著請郭國文委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","葛如鈞","邱志偉","黃國昌","林楚茵","羅明才","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":269,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":1.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.53284375,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.03909375,"end":2.22471875},{"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"end":78.081,"text":"刑事警察局統計了去年度整年度被詐騙金額88億詐騙案的前三名第一個假投資佔了六成以上第二個假網拍第三個解除分期付款這個都完全是金管委裡面可以管得到可以幫忙的地方啊"},{"start":81.216,"end":106.763,"text":"比如說這個現在變成是大家透過平台去join那些的所謂的投資教你怎麼賺錢加line啦加什麼啦加名人啦我知道像我黃主委名誰被冒名過了對不對應該有應該有有嘛齁還有其他人也冒名啊什麼之類的這個"},{"start":109.861,"end":135.626,"text":"我正在想,與其讓其他的當事人或者其他的單位,刑事警察局,他們去聽著看,欸,你的證交所、你的櫃檯中心,人都不少啊,能不能叫他們每天聽著看,可不可以?一樓就處理,一樓就處理,現在來看的話,都是金管會的事情啊,讓那個陳青仁去告訴我。"},{"start":137.246,"end":163.22,"text":"主委啊,我踢你當子彈捏,他偷罵這金管會主委,他還不知道你姓什麼,我還不好意思說你姓黃。嗯,他就說金管會都沒你做事,你看六成都是假投資。我們交易所的金總經理跟櫃馬的陳董事長要不要上來一下。"},{"start":165.066,"end":186.391,"text":"我想在他們上來的中間我跟您報告我們其實一直就有在兩個交易所去收報這報告中也寫從去年四三四月到今年已經有兩萬八千件但是這個平台還要大家跨部會去合作像Google跟Meta要用實名制這些都有在努力中請兩位的長官就回到我的問題你以為派專人"},{"start":192.148,"end":218.099,"text":"可能不只一個可能不只兩個專人每天盯這些平台有沒有有沒有回答這問題跟委員報告我們交易所這邊有專人在做這個有沒有每天盯有有我們有沒有每天出報告我們持續發現案子就會做移送的這個動作給檢察局給好你們三個有移送多少幾間"},{"start":221.251,"end":231.501,"text":"到2月29號為止我這邊的統計是一萬四千一萬四千多件?對那貴賣這邊呢?你說了多少?我們到2月27號是一萬一千六百三十四千你們兩個都是確定每天都有在看喔?對對對"},{"start":243.442,"end":258.677,"text":"一個一萬多、一個一萬多。諸位啊,你回答我不好。我支持魯頓喔。輿送這麼多,為什麼都沒辦法查出來?這裡面的名堂啊什麼之類的,為什麼沒有辦法有效阻斷?"},{"start":260.419,"end":284.39,"text":"這些你看我們行政院陳院長這樣摸著這大聲花了13例喊打喊殺打詐結果詐越打越多你看到這裡曲線圖這個是聯運報的曲線圖你看到越來越多越來越多件數越來越多沒有效啊而且看起來你取締了不少啊所以"},{"start":286.349,"end":312.481,"text":"黃主委因為這個詐騙絕對跟經理有關係絕對跟你的管區有關係你會不會覺得你少做了一件什麼事其實報告委員重點就是因為我們收報之後報到刑事局之後其實重點是叫他下架他是有在一二四小時之內下架可是下架之後他又透過其他管道又再上來所以查完之後他還會再上來所以我們下架不能跟他處罰嗎"},{"start":313.861,"end":338.582,"text":"沒有,處罰的前提必須他不下架我們才能處罰他下架就不能處罰那這是法律上的規定那另外一個重點就是將來透過平台Google跟Meta用實名制現在用實名制你可以不可以要求因為這個上架的大部分很多是投顧的嘛投顧也是你管的啊其實真正的投顧不會做這些事"},{"start":339.022,"end":364.623,"text":"假投顧也可以啊假的假的不管是不是投顧或是就是一個詐欺集團他這個不是真正的投顧你沒辦法現在就是六月底有實名制將來如果你真正在這個平台要上廣告要實名就可以追索你我請問你啊被詐騙的金融大概可以追回來多少"},{"start":366.386,"end":392.48,"text":"這個要刑事局這邊才有這個資料我得到的資料是不超過一成耶幾乎都是血本不歸啊那是overall的我88億那最多追回來8億而且不知道什麼時候才追得到這個這個噴到這樣的案子真的很難過啊真的這個這個當事人都想自殺啊三千多萬"},{"start":394.608,"end":398.535,"text":"真的那個主委啊您腦筋很好啊這都想一想"},{"start":400.068,"end":424.538,"text":"有效阻止啦你這裡啦你這裡啦其實我們跟數位部就是最近就有就是今年6月開始這兩個平台就是願意用實名制來介紹好 第二個我跟你談一下臺股啊最近嚇嚇叫啊漲了1萬到1萬9千多啊是不是已經正式進入流勢"},{"start":426.465,"end":441.009,"text":"我們不太敢我們不太適合判斷牛市跟熊市我想臺股有基本面是牛市什麼判斷大概一定期間漲我想我20%你現在不只漲20%了如果你一段時間不只漲20%了從1萬7到1萬9就差不多20了1萬6、1萬5漲到1萬9就20%了是不是所以你還不敢講牛市"},{"start":453.902,"end":478.684,"text":"我想國際政經情況多變,我們還是要審慎以對了。基本面很好?基本面有,基本面我沒有說。整體台股的本利比有多少?21.17倍。OK嗎?我覺得還算穩健了,對,還算穩健。美國的東京市的本利比多少?"},{"start":480.306,"end":498.957,"text":"報告委員我沒聽清楚你是美國的Dow Jones的本利比多少這個我要請同仁提供一下多少84.06所以臺灣的本利比不高還對從這個角度他的意思就是還可能會漲"},{"start":500.719,"end":528.808,"text":"呃,報告委員,監理機關不太適合對漲跌有太多的…下一步就是這樣說啊,本地比低的要去漲啊,就是這樣啊,對嗎?但是你仔細發現到,這個漲幅都是靠AI啦,跟台積電相關的電子族群,其他的族群很少啊,就是這個不夠平均的啊,這其實外界,外界會,會有點擔心說我們資本市場,特別股票市場,"},{"start":530.208,"end":555.339,"text":"扭曲的現象還蠻嚴重的怎麼大家資金都一萬萬的擠到這個電子的一個相關的產業過來有些電子的有些電子本益比都很高耶公司電子本益比都非常高耶而且比高風險當然就高啊報委員這個是您說的是一個事實可是另外一個事實也是臺股30年的發展我們的"},{"start":557.274,"end":576.345,"text":"臺灣證券交易所的市場結構就是半導體電子就這樣一半所以這個跟反映它的產業結構所以你的意思你不敢說後市怎麼樣就是本地比臺灣OK還不算高所以它是Juicy所以它值得投資可以吧我現在結論"},{"start":577.421,"end":588.782,"text":"我覺得投不投資還是看投資人決定就注意方式但是台股是有日本面好 最後一題也是很重要的題題目金融營業稅今年底到期"},{"start":590.472,"end":617.446,"text":"我們現在是3%現在是5%3%給財政部2%2%是你們到進到金融業特別準備金現在已經將近3500億金管會對於這個法今天底到底這個法要怎麼修有沒有方向我想第一個就是財政部主管的我們要尊重財政部第二個那你態度好問了財政部財政部主管問你欸"},{"start":618.601,"end":628.012,"text":"我的任期到5月19號這應該是下一任主委要回答會比較合適真的我不是不願意回答你我不應該超越我的決定"},{"start":632.148,"end":654.549,"text":"好歹你要離開之前做一件大事吧!這件不是大事!這個是大事喔!這個是大事喔!沒有!你的態度非常重要!我找了財政部,財政部告訴我金管會的態度非常重要!當然行政院相關政委他的態度嚴重!報告委員,其實我的態度過去在您垂詢的時候"},{"start":655.109,"end":666.054,"text":"其他委員隨行書我有報告過現在的我們覺得其實跟國際趨勢來講是不符的希望能夠降低但是原有到準備金的部分希望能夠留著"},{"start":667.578,"end":668.439,"text":"謝謝市保委員接著我們請郭國文委員"}]}},{"id":"149225","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149225","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddabe04fabd9903c0de0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a6094ecae5687cafe55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:36:12 - 09:47:14","影片長度":"00:11:02","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":662,"end_time":"2024-03-04T09:47:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T09:36:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":131,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時36分）主席，麻煩請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：主委好。比特幣最近又暴漲，3月2日又漲到六萬多塊，虛擬貨幣去年發生非常多的風險，也發生非常多的事件，既然現在金管會被政府指定為虛擬貨幣的管理機關、主管機關。主委，虛擬貨幣起伏這麼大，有人冒著高風險想要獲得高報酬，同時它的風險大，代表虧本的機會也很大，你有什麼樣的看法？"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員關心這樣一個重要的問題，其實對於虛擬資產，國際監理機關的看法都是覺得它有相當的風險投機性，但是因為投資人青睞，所以有很大量的投資，因為預期它有很高的漲幅，各國監理機關現在的態度都是要強化這方面的監理。我覺得虛擬資產最重要，大家要注意的就是它沒有內在價值，波動性很高，平台有風險，也有錢包的管理，這些都有很多顧慮。所以我們在去年9月有發布一些指導原則，希望投資人如果真的想投資，要先弄清楚那個商品的風險，並評估自己的風險承擔能力，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為它沒有實質的資產，而是投資者信心的堆疊，我聽起來這個就是泡沫，在金融市場如果大家都持正面看法就會去堆疊，等哪一天氣球破的時候，後果會很嚴重。最近比特幣有這一波最大漲幅的原因是不是因為美國把它納入可以發行ETF，可以做ETF的買賣，最主要是不是因為這個原因？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實美國證管會也是因為法院裁決，它原來是禁止，結果法院裁決這個禁止是不對的，所以才讓現貨的ETF上市，但是市場都覺得既然得到監理機關的肯認，所以就一窩蜂進去。另外一個原因應該是比特幣在今年4月份有一個自動減半的機制，讓大家覺得供應量可能變少了，所以需求就開始往上竄升。"],["吳委員秉叡：延續我剛剛講的那個問題，如果大家都一窩蜂進去的時候，它的漲幅當然就會很大，但是如果有一天出現了不利的消息，或是大家失去信心，它又會大量崩跌，以比特幣為例，其實已經有好幾波很大的跌幅跟很大的漲幅。我在這邊一再強調，也跟你已經報告過很多次，我觀察臺灣投資民眾的屬性，他賺錢不會感謝政府，但是賠錢大家就會怪政府，以前沒有指定管理機關，還可以講沒有機關管理，現在已經指定金管會為管理機關，如果有一些人去投資比特幣賠錢，在累積了很多人之後，就有可能去你的辦公室門口圍你，或要跟你抗議，出現這樣的狀況怎麼辦？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，我跟您報告，謝謝您給我這個機會說明。因為現在是一個網路世界，我們希望投資人真的覺得願意承擔這個風險、願意投資，這時應該是到向金管會申報洗錢防制聲明的這二十幾家平臺業者去投資，現在有很多境外的幣商或是沒有核准過的個人幣商，最好都不要透過那些平臺去投資。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為沒有實質資產，所以這個是虛擬的世界，相對的，還有實質資產現在要代幣化，有所謂RWA這樣的機制，美國也一邊在進行，這個部分你怎麼想呢？如果我們有提供更多的投資管道，在實質資產這種有東西、有憑藉的，你也把它代幣化，也是一樣可以像這樣來虛擬交易的時候，是不是可以產生替代的效果？不要讓那些人想要賺錢，但都去投在這種非常高風險的、虛擬的資產，所以實質的資產是不是要受到應當有的重視跟應當有的強化呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我跟委員報告，您垂詢到我們正在思考的一個重要政策，其實大家對虛幣、虛擬資產，除了它投資上可能帶來的漲幅之外，還有一個是它跟區塊鏈未來發展的連結。可是我們觀察國際的趨勢，像美國跟亞洲的新加坡，其實重點應該是在您剛才所提到RWA（Real World Assets），其中有實質經濟價值的金融資產代幣化，透過區塊鏈把它數位代幣化，這個是各國金融監理機關目前在注意的問題，金管會從半年前就已經開始重視金融資產代幣化的這個問題，而這個跟虛幣的管理是不同的邏輯，虛幣是從投資人保護去處理，可是實質資產代幣化是從區塊鏈的發展去處理。事實上，在今年年初記者會，我們也在資料中有特別記載，我們在今年下半年就會對於基金的代幣化，就是tokenization去做一些研究，現在證期局跟相關公會已經在研究了。"],["吳委員秉叡：從你管理的角度以及這個東西的屬性，當然這樣來講沒有錯，但是投資者有了閒錢要投資，可以有好幾種選擇，如果實質資產代幣化做得也可以很好，是不是至少可以替代掉一窩蜂搶進虛擬世界這樣的機會成本？"],["黃主任委員天牧：Yeah。"],["吳委員秉叡：第二點，就是實質資產的波動可能沒有辦法像虛擬世界，也沒有辦法像它這樣懸殊，但是相對也比較安全。其實在之前的不動產證券化就體現了這樣的概念，現在只是把更多的東西包裝，可以把它代幣化，讓它等於是可以證券化這樣的觀念。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：重點是你願意開放哪一些資產可以讓它來代幣化呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我跟您報告，有關金融資產的代幣化（tokenization）的部分，包括美國跟亞洲這些重要國家，其實都還在試驗性質，因為它有可能產生一些金融穩定的顧慮，但是我們會朝這方向去處理、去研究，為什麼？它可以把虛實整合，把跟實質經濟連結的這些資產，透過去中心化、金融連結變成數位代幣，可以分割得很細、容易交易、跨域、可以隨時清算，這些都是它的好處，可是這些在美國、新加坡等國全部都還是在試驗性質，所以我們會密切關注他們推動的情況，包括監理架構跟商品面，希望將來能夠有機會推出這些商品。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在你們提出的法案裡面，對於不動產證券化，基本上就是這一屆你們打算要推的方案。"],["黃主任委員天牧：希望能夠。"],["吳委員秉叡：「希望能夠」是要立法院能夠支持，當然行政院送到立法院來，我們會看看那個內容，如果合理會支持，讓其有比較大的空間，對國人來講要投資是有好處。我的意思是，因為這工作實在是很複雜，第一個是交易的時間，隨時都可以交易，然後要怎麼樣細分等等，這個東西都很複雜，可能還要發展很久，可是我比較是站在我個人角度，我講我的想法給你聽。如果實質資產代幣化的交易可以很活絡，我們的年輕人或是我們的國人有一筆不太大的資金或是想投資，就可以走到這個領域來，而不是現在找不到投資的管道，每天晚上就是看虛擬貨幣，然後去買比特幣或是什麼樣的貨幣，結果冒了大風險。其實，萬變不離其宗，有一句名言，風險之所在才是利益之所在，想要得到大利益的人，他必須要冒高風險，但是我現在很怕大家會放不下輸贏，所以你必須要把這個東西弄得更清楚，同時在實質資產這邊提供出來，讓大家有更多的投資管道，才不會說都沒有投資管道，也不想買股票，就去買虛擬貨幣。我比較希望能夠做的事，就是如果可以這樣做，就可以減輕投資虛擬貨幣一窩蜂這樣的現象。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員我跟您報告，這個RWA、金融資產代幣化，其實各國都還在試驗階段，還沒有到所謂真正可以商業化的商品，這還要一段時間。不過我覺得這個在方向上是我們要密切注意的，所以金管會在這個議題上面會非常重視而且採積極的態度，但是我們現階段做的，就像我剛剛跟您報告的，還是以基金的實質資產代幣化作為一個開頭，那還要一些時間去研究，我們已經開始啟動了。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊！其實這從某一個角度來講，不動產的證券化就是這個領域的一部分。"],["黃主任委員天牧：類似。"],["吳委員秉叡：它本身就是這個領域的一部分，只是將來要把它擴到多大的範圍，交易要怎麼樣來規範，就是關於這一方面。因為像歐美國家，有一些是把藝術品也納進來，有一些是把其他很高價值的珠寶也納進來等等，這都是可以思考的。我是希望有實質的東西、有實質的價值，就算投資了將來遇到了風險跌價的時候，它也不會完全變成零。"],["黃主任委員天牧：這也是我們的想法。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個虛擬世界根本就不存在實質的價值，全部都是靠大家信心的堆疊，等到信心泡沫、破裂了之後，下跌的幅度可能是沒有辦法接受的，我擔心的是這個。"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝，大家一起加油。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員的質詢。","接著請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","葛如鈞","邱志偉","黃國昌","林楚茵","羅明才","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":269,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.84096875,"end":2.8997187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.15284375,"end":3.8615937500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.126593750000001,"end":9.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.172843750000002,"end":10.898468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.47221875,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.41721875,"end":14.492843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.84721875,"end":15.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.724718750000001,"end":17.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.59784375,"end":18.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.28096875,"end":20.820968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.344093750000003,"end":22.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.95971875,"end":28.414718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.00534375,"end":30.102218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.28346875,"end":32.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.49846875,"end":33.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.10159375,"end":36.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.02096875,"end":38.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.91096875,"end":40.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.22284375,"end":42.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.43784375,"end":43.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.00721875,"end":45.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.930968750000005,"end":49.103468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.45784375,"end":51.938468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.10721875,"end":54.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.385343750000004,"end":55.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.494718750000004,"end":76.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.93034375,"end":81.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.57096875,"end":85.95846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.44784375,"end":88.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.09721875000001,"end":90.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.18971875000001,"end":96.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.97784375,"end":104.03159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.03159375000001,"end":105.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.25909375,"end":108.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.53284375000001,"end":110.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.00096875000001,"end":112.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.72221875000001,"end":113.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.19034375000001,"end":122.3240937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虛擬資產除了它投資上可能帶來的這種漲幅之外還有一個兩法就是它跟區塊鏈未來發展的連結可是我們觀察國際的趨勢像美國跟亞洲、新加坡"},{"start":312.466,"end":338.164,"text":"其實重點應該是在您剛所提到RWA其中有關有實質經濟價值的金融資產的代幣化透過區塊鏈把它數位代幣化這個是各國監理機關金融監理機關目前在在注意的這個問題那其實金管會已經從半年前就開始重視這個金融資產的代幣化這個問題那這個跟虛幣的管理是不同的邏輯虛幣是從"},{"start":340.586,"end":361.745,"text":"投資人保護可是實質資產代幣化是從區塊鏈的發展去處理那事實上今年年初記者會我們也在資料中有特別記載我們在今年下半年就會對於我們的基金的代幣化就是Tokenization去做一些研究那現在政體局跟相關的工會已經在做研究了"},{"start":363.147,"end":376.668,"text":"這個從你管理的角度以及這個屬性當然是這樣來講沒有錯但是投資者他有了閒錢他要投資他是有好幾種選擇嘛如果你在這個實質資產代幣化這一邊做的也可以很好"},{"start":377.777,"end":377.977,"text":"主席"},{"start":396.98,"end":415.741,"text":"其實這個概念之前在不動產的證券化就體現了這樣的概念現在是把更多的東西可以包裝可以讓它代幣化讓它等於是可以證券化這樣子的觀念那重點是你願意開放哪一些資產可以讓它來代幣化呢我跟您報告"},{"start":416.522,"end":437.598,"text":"有關金融資產的代幣化部分其實包括美國跟亞洲這些國家重要國家其實都還在試驗性質因為它有可能產生一些金融穩定的顧慮但是我覺得我們會朝這方向去處理去研究為什麼?它可以把虛實整合把有實質經濟跟實質經濟連結的這些資產把它透過去中心化金融連結變成數位代幣那可以"},{"start":443.642,"end":462.19,"text":"分割很細,容易交易,跨域可以隨時清算,這些都是它的好處,可是這些在美國、新加坡等國,他們還是在試驗性質,所以我們會密切關注他們推動的情況,在建立架構跟商品面,希望將來能夠有機會推出這些商品。"},{"start":462.89,"end":488.411,"text":"那現在你們提出的法案裡面對於這個不動產證券化基本上這是這一屆你們打算要推的這個方案希望能夠是要立法院能夠支持當然行政院送到立法院來我們看看那個內容如果合理支持讓有比較大的空間對國人來講要投資是好處我的意思是說你是不是在這個做的時候"},{"start":489.793,"end":508.723,"text":"考慮因為這工作實在是很複雜我知道你要第一個交易的時間隨時可以交易然後怎麼樣細分這個東西都很複雜這個還要發展很久可是我個人比較站在我個人角度我講我的想法給你聽如果你這個實質資產的這個代幣化的交易可以很活絡的話我們年輕人"},{"start":511.044,"end":537.701,"text":"或是我們的國人他有一筆不太大的資金或是說他想投資他可以走到這個領域裡面來而不用現在找不到投資的管道然後每天晚上看這個虛擬貨幣然後去買比特幣去什麼樣的貨幣結果就冒了一個大風險其實萬變不離其中一句名言風險之所在才是利益之所在想要得到大利益的人他必須要冒高風險"},{"start":538.982,"end":566.82,"text":"但是我現在很怕大家不感受而已所以你就是必須要把這個東西弄得更清楚同時在實質市場這邊提供出來讓大家有更多的投資管道才不會說都沒有投資管道我也不想買股票我就去買這個虛擬貨幣我比較擔心的是我比較希望能夠做的是如果這樣做可以減輕投資虛擬貨幣一窩蜂這樣的現象是委員跟您報告"},{"start":567.58,"end":595.525,"text":"我跟您報告這個RWH是金融資產代幣化其實各國還在試驗階段還沒有真正所謂可以商業化的商品還要一段時間不過我覺得這個方向上是我們要密切注意的所以金管會在這個議題上面會非常重視而且採積及的態度但是我們現階段做的就像我剛剛跟您報告的還是以基金的實質資產代幣化作為一個開頭那還要一些時間去研究但是我們已經開始啟動了"},{"start":596.945,"end":615.635,"text":"其實這個某一個角度來講不動產的證券化就是這個就是這個領域的一部分他本身就是這個領域的一部分只是將來這個要把它擴大多大的範圍那你的交易要怎麼樣的規範是這一方面因為像歐美國家他有一些是把藝術品也納進來有一些是把其他的這個"},{"start":616.556,"end":628.514,"text":"很高價值的珠寶也納進來等等這個都是可以思考的那希望能夠我是希望有實質的東西有實質的價值你就算投資他將來就算"},{"start":632.886,"end":651.949,"text":"這也是我們的想法你這個虛擬世界根本就不存在那實質的價值他的那個全部都是靠大家信心的堆疊等到那個信心泡沫破裂的時候他的下跌可能那個幅度是沒有辦法接受的所以是擔心的是這個了解好謝謝大家加油謝謝委員謝謝秉瑞委員的質詢接著我們請賴世保委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"149224","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149224","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd1baa190dbb424fc5e0c93a942a018238f8ba9b0039caa7a6077d9df624e048115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:25:03 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09:36:04","影片長度":"00:11:01","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":661,"end_time":"2024-03-04T09:36:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T09:25:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":92,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時24分）謝謝主席。是不是請金管會黃主委？"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早！"],["林委員德福：主委，你好！主委，我請教，臺股大盤農曆年後創歷史新高，突破1萬9,000點的大關，面對2萬點的門檻可說是近在咫尺，對於2024年的臺股，你說「展現韌性，穩健前行」八個字2024年仍適用，並引用水滸傳中的「誰無暴風勁雨時，守得雲開見月明」表示韌性對臺灣的重要性，我請問主委，臺股大盤創歷史新高是不是代表進入雲開月明，又或者是臺股前行還有可能遇到暴風勁雨，你的看法呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想跟委員報告，其實這幾年我們的整個資本市場也是要面對國際政經多變的情況，雖然我們的基本面，尤其是去年AI相關產業及國際的發展帶來臺股的相關動能，今年我想AI產業的基本面應該也是大家看好的，不過國際間今年對於地緣政治、美國調整利率的時間，乃至於通膨，還有比方中美貿易之間的一些問題，還是會有一些變數，所以我們還是要謹慎以對。"],["林委員德福：主委，假使臺股仍然有風險，以主委的專業，請問你認為臺股近期是不是還存在黑天鵝、灰犀牛或綠天鵝這些風險的威脅，會不會？"],["黃主任委員天牧：黑天鵝是我們都沒辦法預估的，但是灰犀牛是我們知道的，我們要好好去預防，在綠天鵝的部分，我覺得在永續方面大家包括上市櫃公司都已經規劃好作業，基本上，我個人還是覺得相對是很穩健的。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔！主委，臺股去年創下多項的新紀錄，全年整個漲幅高達26.8%，成績在全球僅次於日本，你說這是在美國升息減緩、通膨受管理下，加上AI股帶動相關產業的表現，以及整個國內產業基本面這些因素所得到的成績。請問主委，臺股這樣亮眼的成績是不是已經充分地反映在大多數股票的股價上？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想臺股的表現基本上是反映它的基本面，可是我們在二、三年前也注意到其實有些優質股票的交易相對沒那麼熱絡，所以我們在110年就有一個股票造市制度，透過券商造市的誘因，對於那些優質但是相對交易不熱絡的股票給予一些流動性的機制；我還是希望臺股能夠均衡地發展，各類的股票、優質的股票都能夠有比較高的交易量。"],["林委員德福：主委，還是只有特定族群，甚至於是少數股票受惠？你認為臺股大盤去年近三成的漲幅是不是讓大多數的股民受惠，一定能夠賺到錢呢？依您的看法。"],["黃主任委員天牧：您問的問題是非常專業的問題，大家當然都知道半導體、電子股在帶動股票上漲其實是有一定的功能，但是我想我們也希望其他產業的類股，包括綠能、生技、數位這些創新的股票，也都能夠得到投資人的青睞，讓大家都能夠從臺股的表現中獲益。"],["林委員德福：主委，去年11月中旬你說從國發會景氣的燈號以及國際貨幣基金調升臺灣明年經濟成長率預估值兩大面向來看，臺灣經濟成長應該會穩健而趨堅，金管會預估2024年臺股日均量約有3,000億元。主委，今年已經過了2個月，請問你認為目前整個臺灣經濟發展的狀況以及臺股成交量是不是都在金管會的預估範圍裡面呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我的印象中，今年到上禮拜五為止，其實臺股的交易量應該比去年同期有提高一些，有比去年同期要提高。"],["林委員德福：所以都在你的預估範圍內？"],["黃主任委員天牧：不是我的預估，我想應該是整個基本面的反映，大家對臺股的信心。"],["林委員德福：主委，據瞭解，臺灣ETF在1月整個規模已經破4兆元，1年內增加了1.5兆元，請問ETF是不是目前臺股量能的主力？"],["黃主任委員天牧：它是庶民投資人非常中意的投資標的，但是不是主力可能要再做細部的分析。"],["林委員德福：ETF的成長對臺股穩健前行，你認為會不會有什麼影響？"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為它是一個追蹤指數的被動型投資，我覺得基本上應該算是穩健的一個力量，但是很重要的是，這些商品相關的資訊跟風險有沒有充分地讓投資人知道，尤其我們最近公布的這些平準金機制或相關的監理措施，就是希望讓投資人能夠從這個商品中真正瞭解它的風險和資訊。"],["林委員德福：主委，據金管會統計，2024年1月底ETF市場規模已經達到4兆179億、四兆多，占整體境內基金規模6兆9,745億元的57.61%，比去年同期ETF市場規模的增長幅度達62.48%，請問主委，臺股中的ETF規模成長快速到底是正常現象，還是異常現象呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們覺得這是投資人也就是民眾希望選擇一個相對穩健，又不需要花太多時間去分析，且能夠有固定預期收益的商品，可能ETF滿足了這些條件。儘管如此，我們覺得從整個資產管理的目標來講，有時候主動型基金其實也是很重要，因為它可以培養真正瞭解市場的資產管理人才，我覺得應該要均衡發展。"],["林委員德福：據本席瞭解，ETF本質是一個基金商品，卻能夠在證券市場交易所中進行交易，且以股票型態來保持高度的買賣彈性，對於上班忙碌、資金較小且不願意花時間在投資上的人來說，ETF是非常適合資本不大、散戶的投資工具。主委，金管會在上個禮拜四宣布對ETF提出三大面向、六大監理措施，請問這些措施提出之後，你認為會不會影響民眾對ETF購買的意願？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我覺得這些措施其實都是強化投資人保護，就是讓這個市場能夠發展得好，投資人保護能夠做得更落實。"],["林委員德福：金管會是基於對這些投資人保護的考量，才決定提出這些監理措施，是不是？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，跟委員報告，其實這也是國際監理機構對於ETF發展的監理趨勢和方向。"],["林委員德福：請問金管會是不是認為ETF對臺股成交量會有一些負面影響，所以才出手？"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該不是考慮負面，而是既然投資人那麼重視這個商品，我們覺得從投資人保護的角度，也要更重視這個商品在銷售面或是商品面有什麼需要再去管理的地方。"],["林委員德福：因為它會擇定一些股，而且AI在裡面占多數，像一般的傳產股它不會去擇定，尤其是營建股，它會擇定嗎？應該不會吧！主委，ETF成為臺股主力是事實，國人搶進臺股ETF，尤其是高股息類型的ETF也是利之所趨，沒有什麼懸念，只是ETF規模持續地變大，對於屬於ETF成分股的這些股票或許相對有利，但是對於不是ETF成分的這些股票恐怕可能出現一些排擠效應，會不會？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這也是我們希望市場均衡發展的考量之一。"],["林委員德福：主委，金管會有沒有統計過ETF成分股和非ETF成分股，在臺股成交量上近兩年的占比變化，你們有沒有統計過？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這部分交易所應該有，我們會後瞭解一下。"],["林委員德福：你送一份資料給財委會，如果占比變化發生排擠效應，請問你認為這些ETF成分股的股票會有哪些影響？在投資自由的原則下，金管會是不是會主動去干預，或者是被動的調整？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這部分我們會後做一個分析提供給委員參考。"],["主席：請主委會後提供資料給林委員。"],["林委員德福：好。另外，其他的部分，因為時間到了，我下次再問，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員的質詢。","接著請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","葛如鈞","邱志偉","黃國昌","林楚茵","羅明才","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":269,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.4353437499999995,"end":7.624718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.063468750000002,"end":8.586593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.14346875,"end":13.395968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.969718750000002,"end":15.589718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.06221875,"end":16.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.31096875,"end":18.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.93096875,"end":23.723468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.36471875,"end":27.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.672218750000003,"end":29.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.372218750000002,"end":33.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.06784375,"end":34.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.877843750000004,"end":36.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.43034375,"end":37.45971875},{"speaker":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第二個方面就是我們原住民的食材常常被歸類在未確認安全不得使用清單裡面那我剛剛看了一個雲端的資料大概目前這些不確定安全的名單裡面有537項"},{"start":249.787,"end":272.52,"text":"那如果以後有民眾捲舉達人就是說原住民的食材裡面是不安全的那被捲舉然後違法然後就被罰款對我們原住民來說非常的不合理因為我們就長期在使用這些比如說原生的一些植物那我希望在很短的時間裡面可以釐清這些平常我們在使用的一些特殊的葉子"},{"start":273.18,"end":299.058,"text":"那能夠公告為安全的名單裡面不然以後如果處罰做的人很辛苦、被罰的人更是可憐,是不是?這我們會找園民會跟還有就農業部一起來做討論目前已經公告了這裡面如果有一些屬於原住民的傳統的食材這部分的話那我們可以來討論一下"},{"start":300.519,"end":310.26,"text":"的確那個要去找科學證據證明他安全是有困難的我希望農業部、延民會跟地方的政府主管、原住民事務的一些官員一起參加來討論,謝謝"},{"start":312.682,"end":333.516,"text":"這項就是關於去年剛通過的原建法我希望他那個專責機構能夠建設的成立目前還沒有專責機構嗎?他有指定專責機構不過還沒有這目前我們的規劃是在這個照護師裡面的有一個科那專責是原住民健康事務的"},{"start":334.156,"end":349.026,"text":"那因為這一個還在跟人事總書這邊在商討所以以後是在照護師嗎對對會增加一個科那這一個部分的話是人事總書那邊還沒有核定好那以後如果有機會的話就請我一起開會好嗎"},{"start":351.243,"end":376.11,"text":"那就是關於衛生所升級的部分因為部長都知道說我們原住民地區其實在照顧原住民健康的幾乎是衛生所那我從民國91年到離開去年離開衛生所退休其實衛生所沒有升級過我所謂的升級是應該人員的編制上面的一個升級比如說應該有行政組應該有防疫組應該有癌症組應該有醫療組"},{"start":377.79,"end":381.071,"text":"這一個部分的話我們對衛生所裡面的這些編制曾經做了一次的變革那我們建議說裡面的話人力可以做怎麼樣的一個調整但是他並沒有"},{"start":404.936,"end":430.551,"text":"因為其實衛生所還是在地方政府在人事編制的部分還是在地方政府的管轄之內如果這費夠的話是不是可以先從特別偏遠的地區開始施行比如說阿里山、霧台這些比較偏遠的地區讓我們的醫護人員可以免於疲憊奔命的在照顧我們的族人還要身兼行政的工作然後還要值班對不對"},{"start":431.371,"end":449.379,"text":"好最後一個就是關於IDS的問題就是說他們在一個給付的一個值班費或者是一個訓療循環藥的津貼裡面就醫事的部分是沒有改變過也就是說我從91年進去到去年推出沒有改變過匯率人員稍微調整不過我總覺得"},{"start":450.54,"end":451.941,"text":"你應該也知道因為這一個是在健保的範圍範圍之內"},{"start":478.84,"end":488.566,"text":"我希望健保局那邊可以做一個檢討好嗎但是這還是要透過健保會等等這樣子的一個機制大家去做討論好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149222","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149222","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddda8e5f4c730d316d9f012038cf3c9e62ff8ba9b0039caa7a6cb86a12d45e21ec65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:45:21 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10:57:57","影片長度":"00:12:36","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院食品安全辦公室、衛生福利部部長、食品藥物管理署就「食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅事件處理之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":756,"end_time":"2024-03-04T10:57:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T10:45:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":553,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時45分）謝謝主席，我請部長跟署長。"],["主席：好，部長、署長請。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，辛苦了，到現在聲音還沙啞，做醫生做到實在很難受。今天講很多了，所以我就問重點，進口了十幾萬公斤的蘇丹紅，然後這些東西是應該……"],["薛部長瑞元：是辣椒粉啦！不是蘇丹紅，蘇丹紅沒有進口那麼多。"],["蘇委員清泉：然後這個東西應該是工業用，做油漆、做地毯、做一些工業染料的，怎麼會跑到食品來？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前這個案子，添加進去是在大陸那邊就已經添加了，並不是進口蘇丹紅跟辣椒粉到國內後再去摻雜的。"],["蘇委員清泉：我查了一下，歐盟跟美國都不能用在食品添加物裡，中國大陸以前還有在用，但是現在也禁止了，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：在他們那邊，理論上也是非法。"],["蘇委員清泉：也是禁止的。而我們臺灣食藥署是美國、歐盟如果有禁止，我們也會跟著禁止，但是我們的查核沒有到位，所以今天的食安報告是部長你唸的嘛！那個你有看過嗎？你都認可嘛！我看第5頁的倒數第二行說是中央跟地方積極查辦，結果我看是雲林那邊查出來的。","我現在要說的重點是，中央訂了一大堆這個不能進口、那個不能進口，像那個乙型受體劑、瘦肉精也是這樣，但是我們的查核是有問題的。這個蘇丹紅的進口是貿易商進口的嘛！然後再分給工廠，工廠再去分裝，或者是再加工，然後再到剛剛部長講的，再到二級、再到三級，然後就開花了，也不知道要怎麼查。它進來是當作工業用還是當食品用？它一進來，他也搞不清楚。"],["薛部長瑞元：蘇丹紅是另外一件事情，它進來的一定是工業用的，但是我們現在是查辣椒粉裡面摻有蘇丹紅，摻的時間點是在中國就已經摻好了，然後再進來……"],["蘇委員清泉：就是辣椒粉。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我們在邊境要擋就是擋這一個。"],["蘇委員清泉：像我們的蝦味先、海底撈、什麼鹹鴨蛋……"],["薛部長瑞元：就是因為當時一開始，我們對這些產品不是100%的抽批檢驗，所以就會有漏網之魚，你如果要50%的話，另外那50%我們沒有抽到的，裡面就有可能會有這種漏網之魚。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以這個案件是人家檢舉的嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：那是在雲林那邊被人檢舉的，但是我們的邊境也一直在升高抽批的比例。"],["蘇委員清泉：是逐件查驗，還是抽驗？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然一開始都是抽的啦！直到12月的時候才100%逐批查驗。"],["蘇委員清泉：那這個抽驗是海關做，還是食藥署做？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們做。"],["蘇委員清泉：食藥署做？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：食藥署本身有人力配置在那裡嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：我看你們的預算今年比去年少，人也愈來愈少……"],["薛部長瑞元：希望委員支持。"],["蘇委員清泉：剛剛我們王育敏委員說，這下死了！要招21個剩1個，薪水又低、壓力又大，然後又沒有成就感，這誰會幹啊！所以你們會怎麼處理啊？不然這個問題以後會層出不窮。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們會爭取啦！希望在今年下半年審預算的時候，委員能夠支持，我們能夠把這一部分的預算……"],["蘇委員清泉：我們是在野黨，我們也支持啦！我們會全力支持。這個太可怕了！所以這個漏洞，食藥署將來是要怎麼填補？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前來講，我們是考慮要把這些所謂高風險的物質把它標示出來，以後這個部分，一發現有違規，不應該出現的東西，它出現了，我們就變成這一類的產品100%抽驗。"],["蘇委員清泉：據部長所知，這種工業用的染料之類的，有可能會危害到食品或加到食品裡面，我現在有個疑問是，我們到底是吃多久了？我看是從小時候吃到現在，沒死也算不錯了。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：沒死就不錯了，坐在這裡的大家都擔心得要死。"],["薛部長瑞元：在前年之前，事實上我們在邊境並沒有檢驗出來有這個……"],["蘇委員清泉：我們石門那邊的鹹鴨蛋，就是車城再進去的石門鹹鴨蛋都是雙蛋黃的、紅通通的，我就想說那些都是蘇丹紅，死定了我！"],["薛部長瑞元：鹹鴨蛋過去曾經有一件的確是摻蘇丹紅，好像是在106年時；現在抽驗的鹹鴨蛋就已經沒有了，可以儘量吃。"],["蘇委員清泉：好。營養午餐有200萬個孩子在吃，如果有流到學校去，這個要很小心喔！會不會？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，我們現在是循線在查當中啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：那我問，這次你講的這個東西進口，一進來的廠商到底是幾家？貿易商到底是幾家再分出去？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前貿易商進口這些違規的、摻有蘇丹紅辣椒粉的廠商大概有4家啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：4家？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以都有show出來了嘛！你看，預算那麼少，才一千八百多萬，這樣是要做什麼？這樣有辦法做什麼嗎？部長，這也太誇張了吧！"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊！所以，我們要更認真地爭取。"],["蘇委員清泉：一定要挺你們的啦！","這個食安五環、源頭管理，我看你們也沒有能力到大陸去查廠，這個要怎麼來做？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以現在的做法就是，一查到有違規添加蘇丹紅的我們就禁止。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你是在第二關這裡……"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：第二關或第三關這邊來查嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：也算源頭啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：這也算源頭嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：邊境如果有查到，我們就禁止它進來。"],["蘇委員清泉：再來我要問乙型受體劑。我們現在的乙型受體劑，也就是瘦肉精總共有的講17種，有的講21種。"],["薛部長瑞元：21種。"],["蘇委員清泉：21種嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：現在驗的有21種。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們自己驗的，就是你們食藥署在驗的只有萊克多巴胺嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：不是，那21種都驗。"],["蘇委員清泉：你們有panel，整個都驗嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：這次的……"],["薛部長瑞元：西布特羅。"],["蘇委員清泉：西布特羅（Cimbuterol）這一個是……"],["薛部長瑞元：是其中之一。"],["蘇委員清泉：有查嗎？進口的豬肉，你們有查嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：有啊！在驗的時候，我們都是一起驗的。"],["蘇委員清泉：台糖這一次，我這次有跑到……再給我兩分鐘啦！主席。","我有跑到信功肉品，台糖的豬就是他們幫忙宰、幫忙包裝的，他們的楊老闆跟我講說，台糖給他宰的豬都一定是他們自己養的，他非常有信心，台糖的品牌也夠。因為台糖本身的什麼豚？"],["薛部長瑞元：安心豚。"],["蘇委員清泉：安心豚賣得非常好，還供不應求，所以在我看來，他們是強烈地質疑，一定是拿到外面的肉混合著一起分切賣出的，然後外面的肉有被污染到，或是外國有用西布特羅，像加拿大有、澳大利亞有、美國也有……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，全世界都有用瘦肉精的，都沒有在用西布特羅。"],["蘇委員清泉：西布特羅以前醫界也在用，被當作減肥藥啊！只要量控制得好，增加代謝、甲狀腺亢奮、心血管……像我們心臟外科，心血管讓它加強，真的每一個吃起來都很棒耶，身材都很棒，都沒有油花耶！"],["薛部長瑞元：那應該不是西布特羅吧，那應該是其他的瘦體素啦！西布特羅還沒有聽過耶！"],["蘇委員清泉：所以我在想說，台糖那一批就只驗到那一份，其他同一批的，就像部長一直講同一批次的沒有驗到。當然是沒有驗到，全部都吃掉了，全都吃進肚子裡了。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：不管你再抽其他的，就算再抽個七、八百件，也抽不到。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒啦！同批的我還有……"],["蘇委員清泉：同批的還有啊？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，同批的有找到，但是驗不到啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：是驗不到啊！不是都吃下去了？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒啦！事後我們在追的時候還是有。"],["蘇委員清泉：最後要講一個有關百香果，這個太重要了。兩天前我們整個屏東萬巒鄉、內埔鄉種百香果的都整個崩盤了，因為有一個營養師在康健雜誌使用了110年農委會的data，然後就說百香果的農藥殘餘量是第一名，第二名是西瓜。我們臺灣百香果產量最高的在南投，屏東差不多占了三、四成，屏東那邊都是用檳榔砍掉轉作的，所以是在配合政府政策，全部都用網室的，根本沒有在灑農藥，你看，那麼漂亮！這下被你們一搞全部崩盤，那些農民每個都想跳樓了。","我在這邊要請食藥署看要怎麼幫忙他們，看是否要澄清一下，我到那邊才兩天前，這個很重要喔！不然這個也出事，那個也出事，他們已經非常痛苦了，整個全都停下來了，我也找新北果菜公司等等趕快幫他們銷售，找200萬個小孩要吃營養午餐的，請他們來幫忙。部長和署長，有辦法幫忙他們一下嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為現在要分工，在市場前是農業部處理，所以如果我們要幫忙，就只有在市場後，也就是後市場的部分，後市場部分的話，我們可以想想看有沒有什麼方法，比方說，可能有一些查驗再度去驗看看……"],["蘇委員清泉：我是建議他去告這個營養師，幫他更正啦！所以署長這邊如果可以的話幫他們說話，這個比較重要，不然會很慘。好，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢。","接下來我們請盧縣一委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":296,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-2","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","林月琴","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","楊曜","林淑芬","陳雪生","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","陳瑩","王鴻薇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","林德福"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院食品安全辦公室、衛生福利部部長、食品藥物管理署就「食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅\n事件處理之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130601_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.25409375,"end":3.3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不是蘇丹紅蘇丹紅沒有進口那麼多然後這個東西應該是工業用做油漆、做底碳、做一些工業燃料那怎麼會跑到食品來"},{"start":56.981,"end":85.146,"text":"目前這個案子添加進去是在大陸那邊就已經添加了並不是進口蘇丹紅跟辣椒粉在國內再去粉再去參雜的我查一下歐盟跟美國都不能用嘛都不能用在食品添加那中國大陸以前還有在用但是現在也禁止了也禁止了對不對他們在他們那邊理論上也是非法"},{"start":85.714,"end":106.972,"text":"也是禁止。我們台灣食藥署是美國、歐盟禁止,我們就直接禁止。但是我們的茶盒沒有到位。所以你今天的食安報告是部長你唸的,你有看過,你都認可。"},{"start":108.393,"end":120.263,"text":"那你第5頁我看第5頁的倒數第二行說是中央跟地方積極查辦結果我看那是分裡面查出來我現在要講的重點就是說中央訂了一大堆然後不能進口這個不能進口像那個那個那個乙型受體劑也是這樣但是我們的查核是有問題那現在到底"},{"start":139.638,"end":162.828,"text":"這個蘇丹紅進口的是無藥生、無藥生進口嘛,然後再分給工廠,工廠再去分裝,或者是再加工,然後再到二級,剛剛部長講的,再到二級,再到三級,就開火了,也不知道要怎麼炒。那進來是當作工業用,還是當食品用,他一進來,他也搞不清楚。"},{"start":164.895,"end":188.073,"text":"蘇丹紅是另外一件事情,它進來的一定是工業用的但是我們現在是查辣椒粉,裡面摻有蘇丹紅它摻的這個時間點是在中國就已經摻好了然後再進來所以在邊境要去擋是擋這一個那我們像什麼夏威夷啦、海底撈啦、什麼鹹鴨蛋啦"},{"start":189.107,"end":211.355,"text":"那就是因為那些東西不是說一開始我們對這個產品就都是百分之百的一個抽屁檢驗嘛所以就會有漏網之魚你如果百分之五十的話那另外那百分之五十我們沒有抽到的裡面就有可能會有這種漏網之魚所以這個案件是人檢記的"},{"start":212.845,"end":213.686,"text":"一直逐漸查驗還是抽驗"},{"start":231.93,"end":244.453,"text":"那這個抽驗是海關做還是我們食藥署做那食藥署本身有人力配置在那裡我看你們的預算都今年比去年少"},{"start":246.213,"end":253.521,"text":"人也越來越少,剛剛我們王衛明委員說他死了20天就剩一個,死了20天薪水又低,壓力又大,然後又沒有成就感這誰會幹啊,所以你們要怎麼處理啊,不然這個以後層出不窮啊"},{"start":263.993,"end":286.924,"text":"所以我們會爭取,那應該希望就是說在今年下半年審預算的時候,那委員能夠支持我們能夠把這一部分的預算...我們是在野黨,我們也支持,我們也全力支持,這個太可怕了所以這個漏洞,你將來是要怎麼來填補?"},{"start":291.321,"end":309.549,"text":"目前來講的話我們是考慮說要把這些所謂的高風險的物質把它標示出來以後的這一個部分的話一發現有違規可能我們就不應該出現的東西它出現了那我們就變成這一類的產品100%的抽菸"},{"start":312.781,"end":334.339,"text":"據部長所知,這種用工業的染料之類的,然後有可能會危害到食品或加到食品裡面。我現在跟您解釋,到底我們是吃多久了?我看他餵小孩吃到盡,沒死就算不錯了。沒死就不錯了,我坐在這裡大家都要翻垃圾。"},{"start":336.874,"end":344.863,"text":"在前年之前的話,事實上我們在邊境並沒有檢驗出來,所以有這個來。因為我們金馬農的酒門,車程在經濟十面的金馬農都鄉親的,我會說那些都是蘇丹紅,我死了。金馬農過去曾經有一件,"},{"start":353.992,"end":364.757,"text":"有一件事的確是參蘇丹紅,那好像是106年來,現在再抽鹹肉兩隻,鹹的都沒有了。營養午餐有兩百萬的孩子在吃。"},{"start":370.64,"end":372.882,"text":"一進來的廠商到底是幾家?貿易商到底幾家再分出去?"},{"start":389.733,"end":414.401,"text":"目前貿易商進口這些違規的餐油這一個蘇丹紅的這一個大家粉的大概有四家啦四家所以都有秀出來了嘛你看預算那麼少你看一千八百多萬你是要做什麼做狗的這我都做什麼部長這太含了"},{"start":420.377,"end":434.286,"text":"這個食安五環就沿途管理我看你們也沒有能力到大陸去查場那這個要怎麼來做"},{"start":439.657,"end":463.562,"text":"對阿所以現在的做法就是說一查到有違規的添加蘇丹紅我們就禁止所以你是在第二關這裡對第二關或第三關這邊來查嗎對好也算源頭啦這也算源頭啦邊境如果查到了我們就禁止他進口啦好再來我要問那個"},{"start":467.411,"end":476.293,"text":"我們現在那個乙型瘦體劑就瘦肉菌總共有有的講17種有的21種21種21種嘛吼現在驗了21種啊咱自己驗的咱只要是你驗的咱來檢查來課多少"},{"start":483.959,"end":484.059,"text":"主席"},{"start":515.071,"end":539.512,"text":"我跑到信公就是肉品台糖的豬就他他們幫他幫他找幫他宰幫他包裝這個楊老闆跟我講說一定是他台糖給他宰的豬都是都是他們自己養的他很有信心台糖的嘛品牌會夠因為台糖本身這個這個肉什麼豚豚豚"},{"start":543.171,"end":564.065,"text":"安心屯 安心屯 那個賣得很好啊 這賣得不夠所以我看他是強烈的質疑啦 一定是去外面的馬來南南做一個切切賣賣處理那些外面的馬來有去污染到 或是說外國用西部吐露的 加拿大也有 澳大利亞也有 美國也有"},{"start":565.726,"end":593.866,"text":"全世界都有用瘦二肩的都沒有用西部特羅西部特羅在醫界以前也在用當作減肥藥只要量控制得好增加代謝、甲狀腺、坑糞、心血管像我們心臟胃科心血管讓它加強那個真的每一個吃起來都很棒身材都很棒都沒有油花那是西部特羅那應該是其他的以前受體術西部特羅還沒聽過"},{"start":595.965,"end":617.886,"text":"所以我在想說臺堂那一批就驗到那一份那其他那一同一批部長就是說同一批次的沒有驗到那當然沒有驗到全部都吃掉了吃到肚子餓了你又抽其他的抽到700多件都抽到沒有沒有啦港肥我有啦港肥有喔港肥有吹到啦鹽我沒有啦"},{"start":620.254,"end":624.355,"text":"兩天前,我們整個屏東、萬鸞鄉、內埔鄉建百香果的富庸崩盤。"},{"start":640.373,"end":653.819,"text":"因為有一個營養書、康健雜誌轉給你用110年,我們農委會的data就說百香果的農藥產育量第一名、第二名、四個結果台灣百香果的產量最多是南投"},{"start":663.434,"end":676.906,"text":"蘇清泉負責負責負責負責負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負�"},{"start":692.076,"end":711.453,"text":"才兩天前,這個很重要,這個也出事,那個也出事,他們已經非常痛苦,整個全部都凍掉。那我也找新北火災公司等等,金桿到銷,找那個兩百萬個小孩子要吃營養午餐的幫忙,請他們來幫忙。那這個部長跟署長,我也幫忙一下。"},{"start":717.659,"end":720.061,"text":"我是建議他去告這個營養師,把他更正"},{"start":743.78,"end":744.241,"text":"蘇清泉委員"}]}},{"id":"149221","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149221","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd4615e384348d798abaff13691fd5102bf8ba9b0039caa7a6771403a2bdfbe5105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"10:42:19 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10:56:06","影片長度":"00:13:47","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":827,"end_time":"2024-03-04T10:56:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T10:42:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":477,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時42分）主席，有請教育部潘部長備詢。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：你好。部長，今天是我第一次透過質詢的方式與您探討我所關心的教育議題，首先我想先替全國的家長以及學生送您一份禮物，請問部長知道我手上拿的這個是什麼嗎？可能印的還不夠大，顏色對比可能也還不太夠，我下次會請他再設計的好一點，這個是數位部唐鳳部長親自設計的「龍無Bug」的春聯，我認為在行政院的所有部會當中，教育部最近是最需要這個禮物的，請部長收下，能不能請部長到主席臺前。","我今天把這個大禮送給部長，禮拜三我們會去考察機房，請您記得帶去貼。我今天是替全國的家長、學生非常嚴肅的來送部長「龍無Bug」的春聯，我想這個禮物非常非常的重要，原因是我們現在正值高中生上傳學習履歷的時期，上週教育部位於科技大樓的機房卻發生火災，造成電力設備熔斷，相關的學術網路全面斷線，教育部、國家圖書館、科學教育館等等的網站都沒有辦法連上。甚至有學校發出公告：因為教育部科技大樓機房電力室目前發生火災，造成本校學習歷程系統間歇性不穩定中斷，112學年度上學期課程學習成果的補件以及教師認證的時間必須延後。全國學生及家長可以說是膽顫心驚，希望考試考得好，成績累積得好，學習歷程累積得好，但是他們卻非常的擔心嘔心瀝血完成的學習歷程檔案會付之一炬，「付之一炬」通常我們都講說不一定真的是燒起來，但結果真的是燒起來了。首先要請部長簡要說明這次火災教育部受到影響的資訊、通訊、服務到底有哪些？一共花了多少的時間才恢復正常的運作？"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝委員關心，這個是科技大樓相關機房跟外面銜接的電力系統，這個原因當然要專業去調查，就是那個熔斷之後發生的火災，第一時間我們消防隊很快就來滅火……"],["葛委員如鈞：不好意思……"],["潘部長文忠：這樣的過程完全沒有去碰到任何機房裡面的相關包含伺服器等等的，所以……"],["葛委員如鈞：不好意思，部長，我想問的是花了多少時間才恢復運轉？受到影響的資通服務有哪些？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，我剛才為什麼說，是因為消防隊灑了水以後要去修復，這個純粹是電力的部分，他們一直到傍晚，傍晚電力恢復，所有的救災應該不到一天嘛，到傍晚、晚上的時間所有的電力恢復，因為所有的系統都沒有受到傷害……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝部長，早上5點多發生，晚上8點多才恢復正常運轉，整整將近15個小時，待會我們再來分享這15個小時有多嚴重。我先請問部長，火災原因調查的結果到底是什麼？剛剛有說到電力，但什麼原因造成了火災？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這個科技大樓，教育部的資科司在那邊只有二個樓層，那是整棟大樓的電力系統，所以這個系統……"],["葛委員如鈞：火災原因？"],["潘部長文忠：還在調查，結果還沒出來，因為他們是專業，要他們鑑定來說明。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，那我們什麼時候可以知道調查的結果？"],["潘部長文忠：這個我們就要再促請消防單位，因為……"],["葛委員如鈞：可不可以押一個時間？部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，可能我們再聯繫消防的單位。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想這個時間希望可以在2週內，可以嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個比較不是教育部有辦法直接答應的，我們已經函請他們了，因為一方面我們想要知道這個電力到底怎麼發生，以後要預防……"],["葛委員如鈞：火災原因的調查，請收到之後立刻通知，讓大家都知道。"],["潘部長文忠：好，沒問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：教育部是否有檢討如何避免火災事故再次發生？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個就是為什麼我們也急著希望他們告訴我們，因為那棟是共同的辦公大樓，我們也希望，甚至有一些是……"],["葛委員如鈞：我想這個問題，不好意思打斷你……"],["潘部長文忠：我的意思是說，這個大樓就像我們的聯合辦公大樓一樣，它不是專屬單一部門的，如果這個系統發生了問題，我們要提醒整個大樓，在這上面要去一起努力。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝部長。這一次的資安事件其實並不只是火災啦，這已經被定義為資安事件了，在資安通報當中……"],["潘部長文忠：對，我們……"],["葛委員如鈞：部長知道我們這一次的事件被數位部定為第幾級的資安事件嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：三級，跟委員報告，那是我們……"],["葛委員如鈞：部長知道總共有幾級嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：四級吧。"],["葛委員如鈞：四級。"],["潘部長文忠：我們是主動通報啦！"],["葛委員如鈞：事實上第三級已經距離最高級的第四級只差一級，第四級叫做動搖國本的資安事件，我們距離這樣子的資安事件只有一步之遙喔！第一級是最輕微，第四級是最嚴重，教育部這一次被數位部認定是第三級的事件，非常的嚴重，難怪教育部的資安問題是持續受到關心。2021年其實已經發生過一次了，該年9月曾經發生因為教育部委外廠商硬碟設定失誤，造成81所學校、一共7,854名學生、2萬5,210件學習歷程檔案的遺失。我想除了火災之外，備份也很重要，學生非常非常的重視，老師也很重視，想請教一下部長，知不知道這個備份原則上應該要有幾份？"],["潘部長文忠：應該至少要二個嘛！"],["葛委員如鈞：事實上我們都希望應該是三份，這是資安的321原則，而且這三份還要不同的媒體，「2」就是要有地端跟雲端，要在不同的地方，同時還分線上跟線下，而「1」是至少要有一份離線的備存，我希望這個部分教育部還要再加油，二份可以說是太少了，希望資安知識還可以再增加。","依照教育部公布的流程，學習歷程檔案的上傳一共分為二個階段，第一階段將學生的檔案上傳到學校端的平臺，第二階段學校集中上傳到教育部的學習歷程中心資料庫，當時發生的情況是檔案儲存在學校端還沒上傳到資料庫，被工程師一鍵刪除，過去的錯誤已經造成了，但更重要的是我們要如何避免這樣的錯誤不再發生。對此，我的辦公室曾經多次向教育部詢問事件發生後相關作業流程的SOP如何改善，但教育部始終沒有正面的回應，因此，我要在這裡直接的就教部長，在上次的事件發生以後，除了加強演練、稽查外，是否有針對工程人員的作業流程改善，避免未來一時手滑，甚至這一次火燒履歷的情況再次發生？就教部長。"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，委員這個後面的部分我要澄清，完全沒有火，這一次完全不涉及任何的……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有火災嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：不是，沒有火燒學習歷程檔案，沒有資料受任何的損害，禮拜三我想召委特別安排……"],["葛委員如鈞：那就不能上傳了，所以就……"],["潘部長文忠：他們不能上傳是因為沒有電力系統，讓網路中斷，並沒有涉及到……"],["葛委員如鈞：請問，沒有受到損害，是不是有全面掃描硬碟裡的資料，看看是否有毀損？"],["潘部長文忠：這個有檢視過，所以這一次所有的資料檔案，當然學生們最關心的學習歷程檔案，並沒有受到任何的影響，這是我要跟委員報告的，至於委員提到的，因為……"],["葛委員如鈞：SOP的改善……"],["潘部長文忠：2021年9月的這個事件，其實是我們教育部一個非常引以為戒的疏失。"],["葛委員如鈞：SOP有沒有改進？"],["潘部長文忠：有啊！"],["葛委員如鈞：資通安全的流程有沒有改進？"],["潘部長文忠：有，而且包含預力備援，還有相關的這一些，我想在禮拜三會把這部分跟召委還有委員做詳細的報告。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，我們就非常期待了。那部長可不可以在此具體承諾，未來學習歷程檔案上傳或遺失或毀損，或者讓大家膽顫心驚的事件，不會再發生？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我們現在包含即時的備份等等這一些，都是SOP裡面的一環，比如說哪一個地方它受到了影響，不會造成像2021年的這種情況，一定不會讓學生還需要再去製作、再去上傳等等，不會讓這個事情發生。"],["葛委員如鈞：接下來的SOP麻煩再更新過來，也希望禮拜三去考察的時候可以得到。"],["潘部長文忠：好，我們會再詳細跟委員會報告。"],["葛委員如鈞：好。接下來還有一個很重要的議題，我就快速的說一下，學習歷程的亂象頻傳，剛剛也有非常多委員都提到了，我在這邊要告訴部長，這個東西的銷量非常好，可以看到圖片中間的那一份，就銷售出去了20萬份，反映出學生的升學壓力真的很大，甚至很可能都有受騙的風險。請問部長，這個代筆的亂象，我想接下來要有很多的機制去遏止這個歪風。","接下來我還有非常多的內容都應該要就教於部長，有沒有調查過學生沒有意願上傳就學歷程的履歷？我們的格式也非常的受限，接下來我最後一個問題請教部長，學生上傳學習履歷，可以上傳的影片大小有10MB，請問10MB可以傳幾秒鐘的影片？"],["潘部長文忠：這部分我跟委員報告，因為這個過程其實包含教育部也跟第一線的教職同仁來做討論，當時會有一些規範，就是不要造成又是無限大、多多益善，所以當時在這上面也一直比較強調我們有一些規定，甚至一些叫做限制，像有關多元學習歷程心得的表現會有字數上的限制，就是希望學生真正把那個成果、歷程做一個比較簡要的呈現。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝部長，我們來看一下學生實際上使用的狀況卻是非常的糟糕，到高三時，已經是低達30%的上傳，高達百分之六十幾的人都不願意使用，所以我想這個檔案的格式、檔案的大小應該要再增加。","2020年文件檔從2MB提升到4MB，各位可以想像一下4MB的文件檔、PDF、WORD檔到底能放多少東西；影音檔是10個MB，我可以來跟部長分享一下，720P是20秒，1080P不到9秒鐘，我們還不要講說如果是技職體系，他有時候很棒的作品想要用4K，很抱歉，5秒鐘都不到，現在1分鐘的影片就已經叫做短影音了。所以我想請問部長，教育部是否可以重新檢討更多元的學習歷程的檔案格式以及大小，並且研議更彈性的方式，讓學生們可以用更彈性的時間來上傳檔案？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告一下，第一個，教育部其實一直不斷在做有關學習歷程檔案的製作，還有相關的傳送等等的這些事項，也一直比較希望可以越來越精進，剛才有一個數據要跟委員報告……"],["葛委員如鈞：我想今天利用質詢的機會，向部長提出學習歷程的資安問題，以及同學準備的學習歷程可能遭遇到的問題，請教育部對今天提出的問題慎重的檢討、改善，以保障同學們升學的權益。"],["潘部長文忠：我也跟委員做最後的補充，這個部分目前高中傳送的大概是八成八；技高的部分，因為他們很多都是實作，過去大概是三成左右，當然在整個提報上，推甄的資料不是用學習歷程檔案做為唯一啦……"],["葛委員如鈞：剛剛有說高達20%……"],["潘部長文忠：不是唯一啦！他其實用原來的備審資料也是可以被接受，這就表示他不是單一選項，就讓學生自己來做一個審酌，所以剛才我們一直在說，學生其實是給他有更多的空間，但是不管大學端還有最近很多第一屆課綱的學生都出來呼籲的意思是，其實他們在參與學校甄審的時候，老師們跟學生的互動反過來，那才是最真實的，如果你一切都是人家在操刀，結果一問三不知，大概自己給自己就結束了。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想108課綱導入這個機制，也就表示大家都很重視，高達20%，還有很多的老師、學生都非常的重視……"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這部分我們會持續來聽取意見……"],["葛委員如鈞：麻煩請再重新檢討一下，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝部長，也謝謝葛委員，我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時56分）","繼續開會（11時1分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續質詢。","接下來請郭委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","萬美玲","范雲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","林倩綺","林宜瑾","吳春城","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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委員這個後面我要澄清完全沒有火生意事啦 完全不涉及任何的資料沒有火災嗎?不是 火災沒有火燒學習歷程檔案 沒有資料受任何的損害這個禮拜三我想稍微特別安排"},{"start":500.023,"end":503.425,"text":"請問沒有受到損害是不是有全面的掃描硬碟裡的資料是否有回水?所以說這一次所有的資料檔案當然學生們最關心的學習歷程檔案沒有受到任何的影響這時候我跟委員報告那自己委員提到的"},{"start":521.095,"end":524.918,"text":"2020年9月這個其實教育部教育部一個非常引以為戒的一個疏失SOP有沒有改進?資通安全的流程有沒有改進?有,而且包含異地備援還有我們相關的這一些我想在禮拜三會詳細的把這部分跟昭緯還有韋農詳細的報告那部長可不可以在此具體承諾未來學習歷程檔案上傳或遺失或毀損或者讓大家膽戰心驚的事件不會再發生"},{"start":551.087,"end":556.651,"text":"委員我們現在包含即使的備份的這一些都是SOP裡面的一環如果比如說啦我講的比如說哪一個地方他受到影響不會造成像2021年的這種情況一定不會讓學生還需要再去製作再去什麼上傳接下來的SOP麻煩再更新過來那也希望禮拜三去訪查的時候可以得到我們接下來還有一個很重要議題我就快速"},{"start":579.485,"end":579.645,"text":"學習歷程的亂象頻傳"},{"start":609.085,"end":622.412,"text":"但我想接下來還有非常多的內容都應該要就教育部長有沒有調查過學生沒有意願上傳就學歷程的履歷我們的這個格式也非常的受限我想接下來要讓部長知道我們現在的我最後一個問題請教部長從這個學生上傳學習履歷可以上傳的這個影片的大小"},{"start":633.88,"end":655.271,"text":"10MB 請問10MB可以傳幾秒鐘的影片這部分我跟委員報告因為這個過程其實大家一直 包含教育部也跟第一線的教育職同仁來做討論當時會有一些規範就是不要造成 又是無限大啦 多多益善"},{"start":655.751,"end":661.216,"text":"所以當時在這上面一直也比較強調我們有一些甚至是一些叫做限制主要也比較希望像那個這個有關多元學習歷程心得的表現會有制度上的限制就是希望學生真正把那個成果歷程做"},{"start":674.528,"end":690.356,"text":"謝謝部長我們來看一下學生實際上使用的狀況就是非常的糟糕現在已經低達30%的人上傳高達60幾%的人都不願意使用到高3所以我想這個檔案的格式檔案的大小"},{"start":692.758,"end":707.295,"text":"2020年從文件檔的2MB提升到4MB各位可以想像一下4MB的文件檔PDF到底能放多少東西影音是10MB 10MB我可以來跟部長分享一下720p 20秒"},{"start":710.878,"end":733.546,"text":"1080p不到9秒鐘我們還不要講說如果計時體系他有時候很棒的作品想要用4K很抱歉5秒鐘都不到現在一分鐘的影片就已經叫做短影音了所以我想請問部長教育部是否可以重新檢討更多元的學習立場的檔案格式及大小並且延應更彈性的方式讓學生們可以用更彈性的時間來上傳檔案"},{"start":735.287,"end":749.795,"text":"我跟委員報告一下第一個就是教育部其實一直不斷的在做有關學習歷程當然製作還有相關傳送等等的這些事項也一直比較希望越來越精進我想請利用質詢的機會向部長提出學習歷程的資安問題以及同學準備的學習歷程可能遭遇到的問題請教育部對今天提出的問題慎重的檢討改善保障同學們的升學的權益"},{"start":763.083,"end":763.123,"text":"剛剛有說高達20%"},{"start":781.829,"end":781.849,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":797.598,"end":822.156,"text":"還有最近很多第一屆課綱的學生都出來會呼籲的意思是其實他們參與學校在徵審的時候老師們其實跟學生的互動反過來那才是最真實啦如果你一切都人家操刀結果一問三不知大概自己給自己就結束了我想108課綱導入這個機制也就表示大家都很重視啦也超達20%還有很多的學生老師都非常的重視請麻煩再重新檢討一下謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149220","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149220","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd7cd673e46a757491a874ae98c1f56169f8ba9b0039caa7a66075f793af8843da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"10:46:58 - 10:56:00","影片長度":"00:09:02","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":542,"end_time":"2024-03-04T10:56:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T10:46:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時47分）謝謝召委，請部長。"],["主席：我們再請部長。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，現在農漁民子女的助學金已經開始申請了，一直到4月1號。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：那一天我有向你們反映，就是私立大專院校學雜費減免政策上路之後，我們的農漁民子女助學金並沒有滾動式檢討，造成現在很多人沒有辦法去申請，因為只要讀私立的幾乎都可以適用學雜費減免政策，可是農漁民子女助學金要點規定，必須沒有受到大專院校學雜費補助的才能申請農漁民弱勢助學金。這個部分你們到底什麼時候要滾動式調整？"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員說明，其實我們內部已經有在檢討，但是基於政府的相關補助不能重複領取，所以他就沒辦法申請助學金，我們現在正在想辦法用獎學金的概念，這樣就可以不受到不能重複領取的限制。"],["陳委員亭妃：可是這有問題啊！因為這個部分是在先嘛，農漁民子女助學金已經很久了，私立大專院校學雜費減免政策是新上路的，因為你們沒有滾動式檢討，你知道現在有多少的農漁民子女原本有領這個弱勢農漁民子女助學金，因為新政策上路之後，他就不能領了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：雖然我們的比較早，但是後來的新政策比較晚，就算我們再怎麼滾動檢討，它就是只能擇一，所以我才會說現在不用助學金……"],["陳委員亭妃：這個部分你有去計算過到底有多少人因為這一個政策上路而沒辦法拿到助學金的？幾乎都是啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：大概四萬多人。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！四萬多人耶！這嚴不嚴重？"],["陳代理部長駿季：現在就是說我們用……"],["陳委員亭妃：那四萬多人怎麼辦？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們用獎學金的方式……"],["陳委員亭妃：怎麼會因為政府另外一項德政，然後搞得自己助學金沒有辦法申請，那怎麼申請獎學金？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們現在避開政府同樣的助學概念……"],["陳委員亭妃：是，那怎麼申請獎學金？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們現在正在……"],["陳委員亭妃：因為現在我們從各農會、漁會都得到這個訊息。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個訊息跟我們講的就是這麼清楚，說有很多農漁民過去有在申請助學金的這些子女，現在面臨這個問題啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以確實嘛？四萬多個人。"],["陳代理部長駿季：他也可以去領另外教育部的部分，然後我們用……"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，你怎麼會叫他去領教育部的部分，現在是你們農漁民子女助學金原本可以領的變成不能領，你怎麼可以叫他去領教育部的啊？"],["陳代理部長駿季：他如果領我們的，他就不能領教育部……"],["陳委員亭妃：當然，這樣不對啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我現在就是說，因為他們可以自己選，如果他選那邊的話，我們用獎學金的方式，用這樣的方式。"],["陳委員亭妃：是，我現在是講你的相對配套啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：配套就是這樣。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！獎學金要怎麼申請，你們還沒提出嘛！"],["陳司長俊言：報告委員，我們會研議讓他不會有領獎學金去重複到助學金的問題，這一部分我們會……"],["陳委員亭妃：好，第一個部分什麼時候出來？"],["陳司長俊言：在下學期申請之前，我們會提出方案。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以這個學期就沒有啦？"],["陳司長俊言：這個學期，一般都會選領取教育部那部分，金額比較高。"],["陳委員亭妃：當然。"],["陳司長俊言：但是公立學校還是有在領這一部分。"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！當然現在影響的就是私立學校。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想新的部分可能在下學期，但是在這一學期的話，也許我們可以用成績的方式，因為到學期結束有些成績，我們用這個方式來過渡。"],["陳委員亭妃：四萬多個人。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道。"],["陳委員亭妃：不是四千多個人或四百多個人。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["陳委員亭妃：全國有四萬多個人，你們怎麼會沒有提早去做因應？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，這我們……"],["陳委員亭妃：然後等到現在大家提出來面對問題了，你說下學期，那這個學期等於沒有。這學期要怎麼補救你們也要想啊！因為預算就編在那裡。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們用這學期的成績，到年底這個成績，我們可以來設計在這一學期的部分，有沒有辦法用成績的部分就直接獎勵他，然後比較正式的在下一學期開始。"],["陳委員亭妃：還有什麼時候要把這個辦法弄出來？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這學期辦法一定會出來。"],["陳司長俊言：這學期辦法就會出來。"],["陳委員亭妃：不是，你剛剛講的下學期用獎學金，這沒有問題……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想2個月之內，好不好？這學期結束之前。"],["陳委員亭妃：那這個學期呢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：結束之前。"],["陳委員亭妃：你說要用學期分數嘛！"],["陳司長俊言：報告委員，就是用這個學期的學期分數，到下年度學期開始之前，就可以讓他受理申請。"],["陳委員亭妃：那是補下學期啊！"],["陳司長俊言：一定要上一學年的成績。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道委員的意思，我們會另外想辦法，在這學期剛好是空窗期的部分……"],["陳委員亭妃：對，這是空窗期。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們看用什麼樣的方式提供獎勵。"],["陳委員亭妃：也沒有問題嘛？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：你是不是有一個所謂緩衝的辦法？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：就是你今年……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們來設計好了，我們來設計。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，就是我們因應私立大專院校學雜費減免政策上路的部分，然後有一個，因為我們的助學金不能重複領取的狀態，所以為了要補救，不能影響到我們鼓勵這些農漁民子女他們能夠上進的這個用意……"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我們有一個所謂配套，這個配套用成績沒有問題，可是成績之後，你可以上下二個學期嘛？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解，我想我可以同意委員的一個建議，就是在這個空窗期我們另外設計一個獎勵的方案。"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：正式的是從下學期開始，然後這學期的這些獎勵方案，我們回去再研議看用什麼方法。"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：能夠讓我們從事農漁業的那些子女……"],["陳委員亭妃：而且也可以說，你們在下學期做申請的時候，因為是以這一個學期的成績嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，一併……"],["陳委員亭妃：一併嘛！所以就變成是二個學期嘛？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們可以來設計。"],["陳委員亭妃：就是二個學期嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：就是過渡。"],["陳委員亭妃：那到了明年之後，我們就歸於正常。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：一個學期、一個學期申請，這樣就OK啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們回去再好好地規劃一下。"],["陳委員亭妃：好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["陳委員亭妃：2個月喔！"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為你要2個月，不然你也來不及啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["陳委員亭妃：對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：要先公告。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，你要先公告。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["陳委員亭妃：而且我覺得你2個月也來不及，你這樣公告怎麼會來得及？"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以啦！"],["陳委員亭妃：因為我們學期是到6月底。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們行政規定的話，公告就實施了。"],["陳委員亭妃：公告就實施。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：你要來得及讓他可以申請喔？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，一定、一定。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以部長，我們就這樣子做決定，做決議喔？"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以。"],["陳委員亭妃：就是你們2個月要提出農漁民子女的獎學金申請辦法，去補救我們這一次私立大專院校學雜費減免政策上路之後，有部分農漁民子女……"],["陳代理部長駿季：受影響的農漁民。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，農漁民子女因為不能重複領取助學金的這個因素，然後受到影響的部分。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們要來補救這個部分。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["陳委員亭妃：在後面的學期部分，我們就以獎學金的方式來做一些持續鼓勵的動作，這樣子好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以。"],["陳委員亭妃：再麻煩，2個月喔！"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們這樣子才能夠讓這四萬多個人，不會因為說怎麼政策好像沒有辦法接替，然後好像沒有辦法去做統一的處理……"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。瞭解。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個部分麻煩，謝謝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["主席：部長，這個問題，我想農業縣的委員都在這裡，很感謝陳亭妃委員率先提出，因為大家都一直在看，看農業部怎麼做，所以剛才達成一個共識，就是這一個助學金未來是改為獎學金的方案。"],["陳代理部長駿季：不要讓他重複領取。"],["主席：對，所以你們必須在2個月內要提出那個方案，然後送交陳委員以及經濟委員會，因為這個是每一個人都很關心，維繫四萬多孩子的權益，好不好？好，如果2個月你可以提早，你趕快方案出來……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會讓完整版公告……"],["主席：這個很重要，因為後面的委員一定都會問，我們把它釐清楚，就成為委員會的一個決議，跟剛剛公糧的一樣。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們分兩個部分，我們大概在一個多月之內完成一個規劃，我們先……"],["主席：對，本席就是要說這個。"],["陳代理部長駿季：還沒有公告之前先跟委員這邊做溝通。"],["主席：先送到經濟委員會來，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：然後讓委員會瞭解，有什麼修改的、微細的意見之後，我們報院完了馬上就公告，好不好？"],["主席：好，那我們是不是就這個議題，今天在這裡，因為經濟委員會都是非常地和諧，我們有兩個議題，到目前為止，第一個，就公糧的這個部分，一個月內要送你們的方案出來，然後送到經濟委員會來，這是第一個。第二個就是農漁民這四萬多個孩子的權益，也請你們在一個半月先弄出來，然後送到經濟委員會我們再協調一下，OK後再正式公告，好不好？這樣子會比較好，這樣OK嗎？那我們這兩項就作這樣的決議。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會送給經濟委會的委員。"],["主席：對，你們也要送給經濟委員會，因為主席台這邊宣布啦！好不好？","那就這樣好不好？陳委員，謝謝。那待會兒有同樣的議題，這個議題我們經濟委員會就已經作這樣子的決議，好嗎？謝謝。","接下來我們請鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員，請作詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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到底有多少人因為這一個上路而沒辦法拿到這個助學金的"},{"start":164.042,"end":167.206,"text":"大概4萬多人,4萬多人對,這嚴不嚴重?那4萬多人怎麼辦?怎麼會因為說政府另外一項得證然後搞得我自己助學金沒有辦法申請?"},{"start":183.465,"end":189.49,"text":"那怎麼申請獎學金?我們現在避開政府同樣的助學概念那怎麼申請獎學金?因為現在我們從各農會、漁會都得到這個訊息這個訊息跟我們講的就是這麼清楚說有很多他們的農漁民過去有在申請助學金的這些子女現在面臨這個問題啊"},{"start":210.287,"end":215.637,"text":"對所以確實嘛4萬多個人嘛他可以去領另外教育部的部分嘛然後"},{"start":217.506,"end":225.27,"text":"部長你怎麼會叫他去領教育部的部分現在是你們農漁民子領資助學金原本可以領的變成不能領你怎麼可以讓小孩領教育部啊他們可以自己選嘛如果他選那邊的話我們用獎學金的方式我現在是講你相對配套啊對啊獎學金要怎麼申請你們還沒提出嘛我們現在在"},{"start":247.148,"end":271.294,"text":"報告委員我們會研議讓他不會領獎學金是重複助學金的問題這一部分我們會在下學期開申請之前我們會提出方案所以這個學期就沒有了這個學期他是要一般都會選取領取教育部那一部分的金額比較高當然啊但是公立學校還是有在領這一部分是啊"},{"start":272.875,"end":278.158,"text":"部長,四萬多個人不是四千多個人或四百多個人四萬多個人這個全國你們怎麼會沒有提早去做因應"},{"start":298.032,"end":321.141,"text":"然後等到現在大家提出來面對問題了你說下學期那這個學期等於沒有這學期要怎麼補救你們也要想啊因為預算就編在那裡嘛我想我們用這一學期的成績到年底這個成績我們可以來設計在這一學期的部分有沒有辦法用成績的部分就直接獎勵他然後比較正式的好什麼時候要把這個這個辦法弄出來這個這一學期辦法一定會出來吧不是"},{"start":328.564,"end":349.693,"text":"你剛講的下學期用獎學金這沒有問題那這個學期呢你說要用我們的學期分數嗎報告委員就是用這個學期的學期分數在學期到下學年度學期開始之前就可以讓他受理申請"},{"start":351.243,"end":363.891,"text":"那是補下學期阿!阿一定要上一年學年的成績阿!我知道委員的意思齁!我們會來另外想辦法在這一期剛好是空窗期的部分嘛!對啊!這空窗期阿!也沒有問題嘛!你是不是有一個叫所謂緩衝的辦法?是!就是說你今年對!就是說因為"},{"start":373.997,"end":392.346,"text":"我們因應施立大專院校學長費減免政策上路的部分然後有一個因為我們的助學金不能重複領取的狀態所以為了要補救不能影響到我們鼓勵這些農漁民子女他們"},{"start":393.507,"end":393.787,"text":"是啊!"},{"start":422.643,"end":445.379,"text":"讓我們的從事農業的職業．而且也可以說．你們在下學期做申請的時候．你們因為是以這個學期的．成績嘛．一併嘛．所以就是兩．變成是兩個學期嘛．準了之後就是兩個學期嘛．那到了明年之後我們就歸於正常嘛．一個學期一個學期申請嘛．這樣就OK啊．好不好"},{"start":450.143,"end":459.86,"text":"兩個月喔!因為你有兩個月嘛,你也不會活啊!對不對?對,你要先公告啊!而且我覺得你兩個月也來不及耶!你這樣公告怎麼會來得及?"},{"start":461.431,"end":479.794,"text":"因為學期,我們學期是到6月底啊。我們行政規定的話,公告就實施了啊。喔,公告就實施喔。你要來得及讓他可以申請喔。一定,一定。所以,部長,我們就這樣子做決定喔。做決議喔。就是"},{"start":480.655,"end":494.749,"text":"你們兩個月要提出農漁民子女的獎學金申請辦法去補救我們這一次私立大專院校學雜費減免政策上路之後有"},{"start":496.28,"end":518.776,"text":"部分農漁民子女因為不能重複領取助學金的這個因素然後受到影響的這個部分我們要來補救這個部分然後在後面的學期部分我們就以獎學金的方式來做一些這個持續鼓勵的動作"},{"start":520.197,"end":538.584,"text":"這樣子好不好?再麻煩喔!兩個月我們這樣子才能夠讓這4萬多個人不會因為說什麼政策好像沒有辦法接替然後好像沒有辦法去做一些統一的一個處理的方式這個部分麻煩 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149219","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149219","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddb1abddffe09aaaac2dd7be9832461c05f8ba9b0039caa7a61614a9641f3446d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:39:54 - 10:53:10","影片長度":"00:13:16","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":796,"end_time":"2024-03-04T10:53:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T10:39:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":440,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時39分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。我想今天就來就教於我們秘書長，吳秘書長，4年前本席在這個會議室，我們非常欣慰地通過了國民法官法，你知道司法改革是蔡英文總統這8年任期一個重要的承諾，也是重要的政績，請問國民法官法開始實施幾年了？"],["吳秘書長三龍：從去年實施到現在。"],["鍾委員佳濱：去年開始嘛！我們在4年前通過之後，是不是有將近3年的時間可以準備？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得準備時間充不充足？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這些都在預估的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：預估的範圍內？"],["吳秘書長三龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對於去年一整年執行下來的成效，你覺得如何？"],["吳秘書長三龍：根據中正大學的調查……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你對著麥克風聲音大一點，好嗎？謝謝。"],["吳秘書長三龍：根據中正大學最近的一份調查，滿意度有到70%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是事實上我看到坊間其他媒體的報導，大概有指出幾個問題，首先，有人強烈的質疑，實施國民法官法的審理案件，就是國法案有明顯的好像檢辯不對等，就是實力差很多，你同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：有這種聲音出現。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得可能的原因是什麼？是因為檢察官的準備比較充足，而律師相對地準備不夠？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這些涉及到一些實務上運作，就是檢察官這邊的人力相對是充足……"],["鍾委員佳濱：檢察官人力充足。第二個，有人說在前3年的準備期，我們司法院跟第一線實務辦了很多的講習，但是普遍審檢的參與比較高，律師們很少參加，你覺得是不是原因之一？就是律師他們比較沒有時間去參加這3年關於國民法官法運作實務的講習，有沒有這個情況？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為畢竟律師他……"],["鍾委員佳濱：又忙。"],["吳秘書長三龍：都是自由業，可能是意願的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第三個，有人提出說國民參審、國民擔任國民法官好像意願也不高，你同意這樣的一個描述嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：根據一般我們現在就是說，他會有一套……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你同意嗎？他們說一般國民對於擔任國民法官，甚至有人說視為畏途，你覺得這有可能嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：應該不至於。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下過去這1年的實施概況，國民法官在前三庭的出席情況如何？你覺得滿意嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就一般……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下，這邊有秀出來，目前國民法官的報到率不到一半，原因是什麼？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：原因我都給你秀出來了，有沒有？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個也有一些他個人工作或……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，說得很對。一般民眾、很多民眾說他拒絕參加，不曉得雇主應給予公假。當你被選任為國民法官參審時，雇主要給予公假，司法院有就這個部分公告周知、強力宣傳嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們一直都有在宣傳。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有在宣傳，好，我們來看一下，你們自己的調查顯示，民眾一般擔任國民法官大概會有幾個擔心，這是複選題，超過一半被擔心的包括他覺得很殘忍啊！或者說他擔心被輿論批判，或者擔心他個人的人身安全，或者他不瞭解案情，或者他覺得會影響別人的命運，或者他沒有法律專業，這些原因好像沒有包括因為雇主不給予公假，當然雇主不給予公假可能沒有表達出來。您認為有這些情況發生要如何改善？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是要讓民眾瞭解國民法官的這種……"],["鍾委員佳濱：國民法官法施行1年，你覺得民眾、人民對於司法或對法官的信任度有沒有提高？"],["吳秘書長三龍：應該會提高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：應該有？顯現司法是完全沒有，只有1年還不足以言成功，路還很長。我們根據國民法官法第一百零四條，6年要做總檢討，對不對？你們根據第一百零五條是不是每一年要出年度檢討報告？那你們出了沒有？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這一部分我們正在進行，請刑事廳廳長……"],["李廳長釱任：謝謝委員的垂詢，關注這個問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：直接講，你們做了沒有？"],["李廳長釱任：我們正在做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：正在做？但是我看到你們司法院1月17號的新聞稿說，你們在2月幾乎要公布，現在幾月了？"],["李廳長釱任：3月公布的是一般民眾的認知調查的部分，我們預計在9月的時候會完成所有年度……"],["鍾委員佳濱：一次說完嘛！"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們在1月的時候告訴我們2月要公布，現在已經3月了，公布了任何一份沒有？"],["李廳長釱任：公布了一份112年一般民眾認知的調查報告，已經公布了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們分了很多項目？"],["李廳長釱任：對，總共分了……"],["鍾委員佳濱：全部要公布完是什麼時候？"],["李廳長釱任：到9月份會全部都公布。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，原來的第一百零五條規定你們要提出年度檢討報告，有請你分好幾次公布到該年的年底嗎？你們可不可以承諾，秘書長，去年第1年實施，你們的檢討報告甚至「二二六六」，從2月一直公布到9月，可不可以承諾明年開始訂一個日期，什麼時候可以公布、一次公布？可不可以？"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：明年幾月開始公布？"],["李廳長釱任：明年2、3月應該可以公布。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，明年開始2月底前公布，可以嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：我們會盡力做，因為第一……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不能盡力啦！秘書長要承諾啊！明年起，今年國民法官的審理檢討，明年2月底前公布可以嗎？可以嘛！可以，好，那就好，謝謝。下一題，接下來國民法官法去年到底有多少案？什麼類型？"],["吳秘書長三龍：去年一共108案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：去年108案，我有準備，我告訴你有108案，你猜大概是什麼類型居多？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是殺人啦，還有公共危險致死。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因故意犯罪而致死亡嘛！就是殺人嘛、公共危險致死嘛、傷人致死嘛，加起來將近9成啦！其中有一個叫做公共危險致死將近有超過3成，你知道什麼叫公共危險致死嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：酒駕。"],["鍾委員佳濱：嚴重的酒駕致死案，就是喝到爛醉如泥還去開車撞死人，這個也就是列入我們國民法官法。那請問一下，在這些案子當中，你認為這些酒駕，包括這些的，他們在進行司法辯護的時候，有得到足夠的辯護資源嗎？這108個案子，有沒有？因為我們國民法官法是讓檢辯對等，那這些人他們有得到我們國民法官法所賦予的必要的司法資源服務嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：都會有，應該都會有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是應該都有，法律有規定，因為國民法官法第五條，就是說他可以要強制指定，對不對？在我們刑事訴訟法第三十一條，本刑為三年以上的就要強制在偵查中、有些情況就要來強制指定了。另外，這樣的條件也符合法律扶助法第五條的規定，最輕本刑三年以上就可以申請法律扶助，是不是？所以你認為這些國法案都可以申請法律扶助嗎？條件接近嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你認為有多少案申請法律扶助？108個案子有多少申請法律扶助？你認為大概多少？"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以我們最近有跟法律……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以現在我問你，你判斷這108個有多少申請法律扶助？我告訴你，有99件，9成以上的國法案申請法律扶助，因為他的最輕本刑三年以上大概跟我們法律扶助是一致的。好了，但是你符合法律扶助就一定要申請嗎？符合法律扶助的案件、最輕本刑三年以上，這個嫌疑犯或被告通通都有來申請嗎，沒有啊！那為什麼國法案的通通都來申請，什麼原因？"],["吳秘書長三龍：一般都是經濟弱勢的原因。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有說酒駕致死都是經濟弱勢啦！我要告訴你原因，因為我們的國法案它的審理跟一般的訴訟案不一樣，它要集中，通常在5天內要把它審完，為什麼？原來的法律設計希望減輕國民法官的負擔，你總不能叫他請公假請兩個月、三個月，一審全部完畢，有時候一個庭要好幾個月，為了減輕國民法官的負擔，我們要求5天內執行。這跟我們一般的司法訴訟常態是不太一樣，如果律師來擔任辯護，一個月大概只能接4件，其他的案子要排掉嘛，對不對？我們來算一下，假設一般的律師3個月可以消化掉30件案件，一個案件大概律師行情多少？一庭5、6萬嘛，大概他1個月也有5、60萬的收入，大概是這樣子，請問如果我擔任國法案的法扶義務律師，可以給我多少錢？"],["吳秘書長三龍：7萬5。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最高7萬5，本來4萬5，你們調到最高可以7萬5。一般國法案去外面找律師要多少錢？如果律師這個月5天都要接國法案，一個月只能接4件，你覺得一般律師會收多少？有一個調查，要20萬到30萬，20萬到30萬他接3、4個案，才能夠讓他的投入跟他的收入相襯，所以為什麼一般的執業律師他不接國法案，為什麼？因為國法案審制的特殊性，所以通通跑到法扶來了，可是法扶只給多少？給7萬5，法扶的律師如果接了國法案，他大概那個月其他的案不好接啊！那他接4個法扶案、他只能領到多少？假設領滿了30萬，顯然跟一般律師的正常職業狀況的收入有間。所以我要請教您，你覺得國法案審理是不是相當昂貴？相對地，為什麼我說檢辯不對等？在國法案當中，你剛才說了，我們的檢察官編制充足啊！但是當事人去委任律師，律師的支出昂貴啊！所以一般的執業律師不接，那他們又符合法扶的要件，通通跑來找法扶，法扶只給7萬5，你說有哪一個傻瓜，為了公益做功德去接法扶的國法案？如果你是法扶的律師，你要接國法案嗎？你認不認為這個有必要做適度的調整？"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以就這個天花板，我們會提高啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：天花板提高，我來告訴你，已經有一個叫做臺灣刑事辯護律師協會，它說國民法官案件缺乏吸引律師參與誘因及實務運作環境，司法院應正視制度之不足啊！意思說什麼？他們興趣缺缺啊！怎麼辦？你們怎麼解決？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是在酬金部分我們就……"],["鍾委員佳濱：酬金這個部分，我希望今天就兩個結論，時間也到了，主席也很客氣，我就講兩個結論：第一，你是不是正式承諾，我們依據國民法官法第一百零五條，你必須提出年度的檢討報告，在次年的2月底前公布，可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第二，這個檢討報告，必須包括對於這一年實施以來，包括了辯檢不對等，包括了律師參與這些準備的不足，以及一般的宣傳不足以讓民眾瞭解，以至於或者以為要花他的時間，雇主沒有給予公假，又或者說他有些人身安全問題，要加速宣傳。還有最重要的，你們檢討報告當中要針對目前絕大多數的國法案都會去運用我們的法扶，法扶律師的酬金應該適度地提高到有誘因的程度，同意嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我請教一下，你們的預算明年要編，對不對？今年有108案，你覺得明年大概有多少案？"],["吳秘書長三龍：大概會有200案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：會有200案，我告訴你，到民國115年開始，最輕本刑十年以上也要納入，到時候量會增加，所以你們要對於未來預算的成長，尤其在法扶，不管是200案，一個法扶如果是20萬，就編個2,000萬。2,000萬很多嗎？會不會很多？法扶幫助這200件的當事人有得到必要的法律扶助，會很多嗎？應該不會吧！所以請你們一定要在明年度的預算預估明年國法案的數量，給予必要的、相對的訴訟資源的編列，好不好？"],["吳秘書長三龍：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員。","我們請登記第7位的翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","翁曉玲","黃國昌","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","柯建銘","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鄭天財Sra 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法律也有規定因為國民法案第5條就是說它可以要強制指定 對不對那在我們的刑法 刑事署長第31條本刑而三年以上的就要強制在政法中有些情況就要強制的指定了那另外這樣的條件也符合法律輔助法第5條的規定最新本刑三年以上就可以申請法律輔助 是不是"},{"start":436.329,"end":454.297,"text":"所以你認為這些國法案都可以申請法律輔助嗎?條件接近嗎?那你認為有多少申請法律輔助?108個案子有多少申請法律輔助?你認為大概多少?我現在問你,你判斷這108個案子有多少申請法律輔助?"},{"start":458.715,"end":487.427,"text":"我告訴你齁 有99件啦九成以上的這個國審 國法案呢 申請法律輔助因為他的最低本刑三年以上 大概跟我們這個法律輔助是一致的好啦 但是你符合法律輔助就一定要申請嗎?符合法律輔助的案件 最低本刑三年以上 有這個嫌疑 嫌犯或被告有通通來申請嗎?沒有啊 那為什麼這個國法案的 這個都通通來申請?"},{"start":490.083,"end":517.483,"text":"什麼原因因為他一般都是經濟弱勢的沒有所有的酒駕致死的都是經濟弱勢啦我要告訴你原因啊因為我們的國法案他的審理跟一般的訴訟案不一樣他要集中通常在五天內要把它審完為什麼原來的法律設計希望減輕國民法官的負擔你總不能叫他請公假請兩個月三個月全部在審一審了全部完畢有時候一個庭啊要好幾個月啊"},{"start":518.483,"end":546.811,"text":"國民法官為檢定國民法官要求5天內執行那這跟我們一般的司法處長的常態不太一樣那如果法官律師來擔任辯護一個月大概只能接4件其他的案子要排掉嘛對不對那請問一下目前我們來算一下假設一般的律師一個三個月可以消化掉30件案件假設啦三個月消化30案件一個案件大概律師的行刑多少五六萬嘛一庭嘛"},{"start":547.551,"end":548.231,"text":"一般國法案去找律師要多少錢?"},{"start":569.656,"end":596.251,"text":"如果你律師這個月國法案你五天都要接國法案你一個月只能接事件你覺得一般律師會收多少有一個調查要20萬到30萬20萬到30萬他接三四個案他才能夠跟他的投入和收入相稱所以為什麼一般的職業律師他不接國法案為什麼因為國法案的審製的特殊性所以通通跑到法服來了可是法服給多少給7萬5"},{"start":598.228,"end":618.051,"text":"法無的律師如果接了國法案他那個月大概其他人不好接啊那他接4個法無案他只能領到多少假設領滿才30萬顯然跟一般的律師的正常的職業狀況的收入有見所以所以我要怎麼請教您你覺得國法案審理是不是相當昂貴"},{"start":619.502,"end":647.574,"text":"相對的為什麼說簡便不對等在國法案當中你剛說了我們的檢察官的編制充足啊但是當事人去委任律師律師的支出昂貴啊所以一般的職業律師不接啊那他們又符合法服的要件通通跑來找法服法服只給7萬5啊那你說有哪一個傻瓜為了公義做公德去接法服的這個國法案如果你是法服的律師你要接國法案嗎"},{"start":649.943,"end":675.402,"text":"那你認為這個有必要做適度的調整所以我們就這個天花板我們會提高天花板提高我還告訴你已經有一個叫做臺灣刑事辯護律師協會他說國民法官案件缺乏吸引律師參與誘因及實務運作環境司法院應正式制度之不足意思說什麼他們興趣缺缺啊怎麼辦你們怎麼解決"},{"start":680.952,"end":702.683,"text":"就是在籌金部分我們就籌金那這個部分我希望今天就兩個結論的時間也到了那麼主席很客氣我就講兩個結論第一你是不是正式承諾我們依據國民法官法第105條你必須年度的檢討報告在次年的2月底前公佈可以嗎"},{"start":704.393,"end":729.05,"text":"第二這個檢討報告必須包括對於這一年實施以來包括了變檢不對等包括了律師參與這些準備的不足以及一般的宣傳不足以讓民眾瞭解以至於或者以為要花他的時間僱主沒有給予工價又或者說他有些人身安全問題要加速宣傳還有最重要的你們檢討報告當中"},{"start":730.891,"end":733.432,"text":"同意嗎?同意。好,那我請教一下,你們的預算明年要編對不對?今年有108案,你覺得明年大概有多少案?"},{"start":755.301,"end":780.252,"text":"會有200案我告訴你到民國115年開始被最低本金10年以上也要納入啊到時候量會增加所以你們要對於未來的預算的成長尤其在法服如果是200案一個案子如果是20萬就編個2000萬2000萬很多嗎會不會很多法服幫助這2000萬200件的一個當事人有得到必要的法律輔助會很多嗎"},{"start":781.394,"end":781.494,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"149218","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149218","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd4c175f190bb0894bfaa0e83a28976539f8ba9b0039caa7a6c30ece9fadaa79bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"10:39:19 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10:47:33","影片長度":"00:08:14","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-04","duration":494,"end_time":"2024-03-04T10:47:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-04T10:39:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":515,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（10時39分）主席好、主委好，有請主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員你好。"],["邱委員若華：你好。主委，113年公共建設經費持續增加，國發會今年2月26號的時候也表示過，2024年整體公共建設預算近7,800億，創歷年新高。請問主委，工程會如何協處強化監督管理機制，以提高執行成效，確實掌握工程進度狀況，如何精進與各部會合作，持續監督相關準備作業及動工前的相關準備工作，以利後續建設之推展？"],["吳主任委員澤成：謝謝委員的指教。歷年來公共工程經費的額度大概在6,000億到7,000億這個額度範圍內，每一年我們在年度一開始就會要求各機關提出執行的進度計畫，我們會加以列管、追蹤，一方面提醒他們事先應該注意什麼事情，避免後面的執行遭遇到問題，比方用地要先解決等等，針對一些困難的問題，像請照等等要先完成，然後按照實際的執行需要去編列它的預算，它一旦有落後，我們會加以追蹤、督促，並協調解決問題。"],["邱委員若華：好，瞭解。全國推動的公共建設，加上民間興建大大小小的工程，目前工程量能足夠嗎？像是公務人員、政府工程專業人員的量能能夠處理這麼多案件嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：目前看起來，大型的工程比較會有廠商胃納量的問題，比方捷運，固定的就是那幾家，萬一繼續推的話，它就會流標，然後就會一直產生在那邊循環。在中小型工程，從發包的結果跟歷年的執行看起來還可以。"],["邱委員若華：還可以？"],["吳主任委員澤成：是。"],["邱委員若華：OK。主委您提到流標，工程會改善政府工程流標的情況做得如何？"],["吳主任委員澤成：關於流標的問題，我們很認真的對個案，連我自己都在主持檢討，已經開過三百多場的檢討會議，我們檢討起來，其實是有物價波動還有勞工的問題，確實是這個趨勢存在，但它還不至於影響到公共工程的推動，所以機關本身的作為就很重要，比方編列預算有沒有依照市場價格編列、工期有沒有合理，甚至於招標文件裡面有一些不合理的現象，例如綁標等等，這一些我們都要求他們去改善之後，最後終能夠順利。像我們在上個年度，112年度的達成率達到96.21%，也算可以順利。"],["邱委員若華：主委您也提到原物料還有缺工的問題，重大工程面臨物料上漲，還有原物料供應短缺、缺工問題，這影響到工期能否如原先計畫時程，還有預算是否追加，以及廠商有沒有這個能力能夠繼續興建，請問主委工程會的積極因應之道，還有對於去年與之前發生的原物料供應短缺、營建人力缺工等影響到公共工程進行，已經做了哪些對策，成效如何？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們都從流標的狀況，個案分別去瞭解，甚至於協調、指導機關怎麼樣去做調整，這樣一執行之後，我們目前來看，狀況還算好。"],["邱委員若華：狀況還算好？那麼缺工的部分，跨部會要如何共同解決？"],["吳主任委員澤成：缺工的部分，早期對公共工程的缺工，不引進外勞，主要還是要用本勞，我們三十幾萬的勞工在營建市場，那麼缺工的部分，我們引進外籍勞工，最早以前才4,000個人，顯然不夠，現在我們經過跟勞動部協調，已經增加到一萬多到兩萬的外籍勞工，可以補足這一塊，那算可以順利。"],["邱委員若華：好。在業務報告中提及主動協處公建計畫，包含掌控部會、計畫、工程標案執行狀況，提早發現問題，及時協處解決，並定期檢討執行成果。請問主委可否具體說明相關的實際作為？"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，關於這個部分，我覺得在機關，提醒他們很重要，比方我們在中央部會的列管來看，衛福部一直都在落後，我們就發現它有兩個問題，一個是對於補助型的工程，它先核定了計畫跟經費，結果地方還要再去編地方配合款，還要再去做設計、請照，這個年度內根本不可能執行這些工程。所以我們就要求，請衛福部分兩階段，你要給它先核定，但錢不要先列，它可以去做那一些先期的工作。另外一類就是大型工程，大型工程在土地還沒有取得，它就編預算，或者是還沒有做耐震評估就加以編列預算，所以它預算就執行不出去，同樣應該要先核下去，讓它先進行那一些先期的作業，然後再核經費給它去發包施工，這樣來改善。"],["邱委員若華：是，主委您提到地方，各縣市已經動工或是正在爭取核定興建的公共建設計畫非常多，以桃園為例，本席來自桃園，桃園改制為直轄市之後，為了加速都市發展，持續推動了很多非常重大的建設，像是上週五3月1日傍晚的時候，行政院有核定通過捷運龜山棕線可行性研究以及綜合規劃報告，接下來也會進入發包作業，上週五本席極力爭取的捷運三鶯線延伸至八德段的綜合規劃報告，也獲得交通部審查通過了，後續將進入行政院審議階段。請問主委，如何協助地方民眾期盼已久，還有對解決交通生活等問題，促進地方發展的重大建設如期如質的完成？"],["吳主任委員澤成：這些捷運線經過可行性核定之後，後續還要做規劃設計，再發包施工，我們會提醒市政府這邊後續做規劃設計時，怎麼樣預先考量的問題，讓它不至於發生後面的流標，讓它能夠順利進行，我們會主動來跟他們協助。"],["邱委員若華：您說到預先考量，怎麼樣做預先考量？"],["吳主任委員澤成：比方價格必須要務實來編列，比方它的量體、用地必須要解決，然後人家才敢進來施工、標案，所以這個都有關係的。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：謝謝。"],["主席：邱委員發言完畢，我們現在休息。","休息（10時47分）","繼續開會（11時5分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林沛祥","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","游顥","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳俊宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6890937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.2415937500000003,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.45534375,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.978468750000001,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.029093750000001,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.214718750000003,"end":12.822218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.94034375,"end":14.982218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.724718750000001,"end":21.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.035968750000002,"end":26.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.26721875,"end":31.047218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.70534375,"end":32.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.25784375,"end":34.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.74284375,"end":35.924093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.49784375,"end":41.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.610968750000005,"end":48.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.93471875,"end":60.679718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.05096875,"end":63.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.24034375000001,"end":67.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.49721875,"end":70.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.90596875,"end":72.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.96471875,"end":79.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.18409375,"end":73.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.86659375,"end":82.56659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.90409375,"end":89.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.63721875,"end":95.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.84721875000001,"end":97.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.00721875,"end":103.06971875},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