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現在開始開會 那我們先進行報告事項那請宣讀上次會議的議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議議事錄實現中華民國113年3月4日星期一上午9時16分至12時48分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員黃委員國昌等13人"},{"start":1822.722,"end":1836.323,"text":"列席委員．委員如均等16人．列席官員．司法院秘書長吳三龍等人．主席吳昭吉委員鍾憲．報告事項．宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定．而邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫．並備質詢。．"},{"start":1838.246,"end":1852.982,"text":"本次會有委員黃國昌等14人提出質詢決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢時要求提供相關資料會以書面答覆者請相關機關緊速送交個別委員及本會通過臨時提案二項宣讀完畢"},{"start":1858.897,"end":1885.403,"text":"因為現在委員人數的關係我們稍後再確認議事錄那我現在先介紹那個到場的委員現在到場的委員是黃國昌委員還有傅坤祺委員我現在就應邀的列席官員"},{"start":1887.318,"end":1896.667,"text":"人事長蘇俊榮副人事長懷旭公務人力發展學院院長陳明忠綜合規劃處處長周威庭編織人力處處長張翠娟培訓考用處處長陳悅春"},{"start":1914.416,"end":1936.884,"text":"給予福利處處長林錦惠人事資訊處處長莊素怡秘書室主任蔡富雄人事室主任蘇月娥紀處主任陳立慧政風室主任潘文莉"},{"start":1941.06,"end":1942.822,"text":"確認議事錄上次的議事錄確定"},{"start":1960.849,"end":1977.075,"text":"本次議程我們是邀請行政院的人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況還有立法計畫並備質詢現在進行報告發言時間是5分鐘請行政院人事總處蘇人事長報告主席各位委員大家好人事總處統籌規劃各機關能力支援管理政策"},{"start":1989.483,"end":2004.66,"text":"務實推動組織調整、建建各項大義福利等業務以多元且務實的方式協助各機關穩健運作共同提升政府施政績效以下緊就本總處重要業務推動情形以今年工作重點及立法計畫進行報告"},{"start":2006.141,"end":2023.946,"text":"首先是行政機關組織調整112年完成內政經濟交通農業環境部及河岸會五部議會及其首屬機關的立法作業以及新機關的運作並成立個人資料保護委員會籌備處及國家動漫博物館籌備處"},{"start":2025.166,"end":2051.837,"text":"在行政法人的部分我們在112年共成立國家自動安全研究院國家太空中心等4個行政法人並以近年陸續辦理行政法人公司以及先導會就務實應作所遭遇的困難共同研商交流因應在延耳管理方面近年已將人力優先預租於司法改革邊境管理環境保育矯正檢查與個資保護等重大業務需求"},{"start":2052.85,"end":2068.724,"text":"同時積極精簡超額援額以及處請機關應用給予人力一一三年度中央機關預算總總數為二十二萬八百九十九人叫一百零一年行政院組織調整啟動的元額數減少一萬"},{"start":2071.326,"end":2092.757,"text":"2305人．檢力5.3%．人事總處．將持續透過顏偶評鑑及．人數統計分析等組織審議的工具．協助各機關合理配置主設及顏偶．在中高階公務人員培育方面．112年辦理國家政務研究班及．高階領導研究班．主題式教學方式設計國內外課程．"},{"start":2095.119,"end":2104.593,"text":"並則定淨零排放為主題培育高階人眼跨域治理能力另外以淨零治理及淨零生活轉型為主題顯送事實二問"},{"start":2105.817,"end":2128.562,"text":"出國專體研究增進公務人才國際視野人事總處也配合性平商法修法邀請前續部保訓會勞動部等相關部會研商公部門性騷擾案件紳士處理參考指引協助各機關推動落實性騷擾防治措施並辦理相關課程加強修法重點先導至113年期也將性騷擾防治法規及議事納入公務人員每年"},{"start":2133.908,"end":2156.438,"text":"每人必須完成斜斜實施的範圍在公布人員健康前部分人事總處在去年9月間復工工時較高的海巡署艦隊分署等特殊輪班輪休機關辦理實地防事聽起基層同仁對於請求制度的建議將持續加強宣導並收集實務意見具體調整在經公教員工"},{"start":2158.519,"end":2183.053,"text":"113年度經公交大意義通案調整4個百分比．同時也配合行政院組織調整．核實審議各類人員大意義項目．另外強化公務人員執行職務保障．建議全區部將執行危險職務．發生意外致失能或死亡未分金．由現行新來幣600萬．調整至1000萬．並將受傷未分金花旺額度調整一倍．應應應少子化．持續推動公部門設置職場．"},{"start":2184.827,"end":2189.658,"text":"透逸設施若實職場友善生養措施人事總處"},{"start":2192.795,"end":2214.54,"text":"單戶公部門能力支援管理的幕僚角色將持續引領專業的人事作為﹐服務與資訊科技推動人事數位轉型及資料治理﹐並深化友善健康的公務職場﹐積極協助各機關提升問題解決力﹐精進重大議題因應策略﹐敬請各位委員繼續予以支持﹐以上報告進行指教"},{"start":2217.777,"end":2245.229,"text":"機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容請各位參閱並且列入公報記錄好那我們現在開始進行詢答本會會委員詢答時間是8分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘那非本會委員詢答時間是5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們現在請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2251.858,"end":2272.205,"text":"任市長好今天拜讀了人事總處所提出來的業務計畫跟修法的計畫那我看到其中一項我非常的感觸很深您提到了為了要強化公務人員執行職務的保障提高意外傷亡慰務金額度我相信"},{"start":2273.92,"end":2297.174,"text":"給意外傷亡的公務人員提高慰問金的額度大家都贊成但為什麼說我很感慨強化公務人員職務的保障預防剩餘事後的慰問等到悲劇發生了以後再高的慰問金恐怕都沒有辦法挽回悲劇也沒有辦法撫慰家屬的心情我為什麼這樣子說呢"},{"start":2298.855,"end":2325.182,"text":"我不知道人事長你還記不記得6年前在同一個會議室同一個地方那時候您還是副人事長現在也恭喜你高升人事長了6年前我們在這邊曾經有一段對話我那個時候直接跟人事長說針對公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法訂得很爛沒有辦法保護我們的警校"},{"start":2327.048,"end":2352.858,"text":"行政院人事總處有沒有那個破例告訴考試院要改你還記不記得當時你怎麼跟我說的沒有關係我提醒你我說話一向有憑有據你是說我們會按照指示盡速協調針對一些需要改善的條文再來加強請問改了什麼條文"},{"start":2355.041,"end":2376.379,"text":"我這裡跟委員報告事實上我們有跟保訊會跟前序部在你來溝通事實上那個華的主管機關我們事實上是溝通了6年以後改了什麼條文這個部分我必須要跟委員講很抱歉你跟我抱歉沒有用啊你還知不知道2018年4月的時候我們為什麼在這裡有這段對話嗎你還記不記得"},{"start":2383.308,"end":2410.65,"text":"基本上應該是發生一些消防人員的這一些意外事件我必須要說齁2018年4月的時候發生了進棚大火我們有六位消防弟兄罹難了那個時候基層的消防勇敢的打火英雄跟立法院跟行政院跟我們的政府大聲疾呼"},{"start":2411.886,"end":2439.915,"text":"防護人員安全及衛生防護辦法要修沒有辦法保障他們你那個時候也是在這個委員會裡面跟我做了承諾說你會跟保訓會協調針對一些需要改善的條文再來加強6年過去了修了什麼修了什麼答案是什麼都沒有修答案是什麼都沒有修"},{"start":2441.926,"end":2455.931,"text":"您說跟考訓會在協調您覺得很抱歉最近開始跟考試院那邊跟保訓會那邊在協調是什麼時候您還記得嗎最近是因為"},{"start":2460.346,"end":2460.906,"text":"最近一次是什麼時候?"},{"start":2482.506,"end":2487.027,"text":"行政院副院長召開會議什麼時候?"},{"start":2512.166,"end":2536.138,"text":"時間我記得可能都比你清楚去年10月12號12月12號然後你們提出來的書面報告是你們要修你們要改距離上一次的承諾6年上一次走了6個地修過了6年什麼都沒有改這一次又走了4個地修行政院去年又說要改"},{"start":2538.459,"end":2567.681,"text":"你們覺得這樣子政府對得起那些在第一線射聲犯難的打火英雄嗎?我這裡跟委員報告一下在上一年12月12號副院長召開的會議我們目前是朝在消防法裡面增加治安辦法來確保好 你們針對消防法裡面針對那樣子的辦法要去修正你們所提出來的這樣子的方案基層的警消接受嗎?同意嗎?"},{"start":2569.685,"end":2581.279,"text":"報告委員這一個方案的設計事實上已經有多次跟消防相關的對所以我說嘛他們接不接受認為夠不夠這是我的問題啦"},{"start":2584.998,"end":2610.606,"text":"我跟委員報告因為這個部分消防署署長他們給我們的回覆你在意的是署長的意見還是基層警消的意見你在意的是坐在辦公室裡面吹冷氣的人的意見還是在第一線打火英雄的意見事實上我講法跟委員一樣我們在乎的是第一線打火英雄的意見所以過了6年都沒有改過了6年都沒有改真的在意嗎"},{"start":2613.53,"end":2642.158,"text":"我今天要的啦我不是在為難人事長我知道這個要協調但我希望你要有態度我們跟打火弟兄站在一起在這一條道路上應該有的改革誰阻擋誰拖延我們批判誰我們這樣還對得起他們嗎我看到那些錦囂的同仁看到他們的弟兄死了在凱達格蘭道道上面流著眼淚"},{"start":2643.82,"end":2668.148,"text":"我們的政府應該要有的修法的步調是一而再再而三的拖延我不客氣的說啊這個政府對不起他們過了6年都沒有改又走了4名弟兄到現在蔡文燦所提出來的方案我直接跟人事長報告啊他們對於要修這一個"},{"start":2669.485,"end":2692.868,"text":"安全及衛生防護辦法他們已經沒有任何期待了他們現在所提出來直接的訴求是什麼他們要求回歸全面適用職業安全衛生法連你們所提出來的那個消防法裡面要去增加的他們都看不下去了他們的訴求人事長知道嗎"},{"start":2694.148,"end":2708.608,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上在討論的過程中我們本來是朝兩個方向一個是在消防法裡面去強化治安法另外一個是徹底來修改職業安全衛生法可是當"},{"start":2709.469,"end":2728.06,"text":"討論到職業安全衛生法的時候蕭黃弟兄他有其他的考量他有其他的意見事實上在整個過程中我們有參與本來我們第一個方向是朝職業安全衛生法去修去保障他們有效的去保障沒有關係啦我這樣跟人事長講好了我跟人事長要一個承諾"},{"start":2729.232,"end":2754.946,"text":"找個時間跟基層消防弟兄面對面好好坐下來談聽聽他們的心聲他們現在發出來的聲明是他們去年本來要上凱道結果他們非常後悔誤信了鄭文燦以為鄭文燦有誠意啊所以取消了上凱道沒想到取消了上凱道了以後他們才發現他們被耍啦他們為什麼這麼憤怒他們為什麼這麼憤怒"},{"start":2759.551,"end":2785.468,"text":"第二個部分他們希望要組工會行政院端出來的菜單是特種公務人員協會他們認為沒有用人事長你的態度呢事實上這個部分我們有跟情緒部有充分的討論過而且跟相關的部會沒有關係啦就中間的那個就不用講了你的態度是什麼贊不贊成"},{"start":2787.13,"end":2810.302,"text":"我們還是建議在目前的公務人員協會法裡面直接來規範一些團體協約權還有爭議權相關的規範我就直接幫你整理出來了啦你們的修法版本我全部都拜讀過了我也問過消防弟兄的意見啊他們反對啊看不下去啊團結前門檻過高"},{"start":2815.343,"end":2842.28,"text":"協商權範圍太窄沒有辦法真正行使爭議權沒有關係啦你們的態度是這個樣子該推動的修法我們來推動最後一個問題目前軍公教的待遇沒有法制化的基礎很多團體包括立法院的法治局包括監察院都一直說條新機制應該要法制化這一件事情人事總處有沒有任何的規劃"},{"start":2845.296,"end":2855.204,"text":"法制化本來就是應該需要的目前在執行上上午自愛燃刑的地方"},{"start":2856.372,"end":2878.348,"text":"從你的角度來講當然是沒有刺案難行的地方嘛你要從七成員工的角度講他們滿不滿意嘛現在沒有法源依據連軍公教員工待遇審議委員會設置要點都沒有法源的辦法相關的單位包括監察院要求行政院提出檢討多久啦到現在都還在拖"},{"start":2880.234,"end":2904.487,"text":"接動法制化這件事情我再說一次阿如果人總不做阿立法院來做在完成法制化以前我最後只問一個關鍵的問題阿不要耽誤其他委員太多的時間阿現在有很多基層的公務員包括老師他們要求軍公教員工待遇審議委員會設置要點裡面的代表應該要有基層員工任市長你贊不贊成"},{"start":2906.92,"end":2924.501,"text":"這一點我沒有反對可是我必須要跟委員你沒有反對我沒有反對為什麼呢因為我們在你為什麼時候可以實現我們現在是採一個變通的方式在委員會召開之前我們會跟交易部把相關的團體因為委員你也知道嘛"},{"start":2925.442,"end":2925.722,"text":"我這樣說好了啦齁"},{"start":2951.457,"end":2979.972,"text":"這一個調整機制的法制化還要等多久什麼時候裡面才可以有基層員工的代表這是我關心的兩個問題剛剛人事長某個程度你的回答我不知道你為什麼當了人事長還有這麼多無奈那沒有關係今天本席跟其他的委員我們一起提了一個臨時提案希望人事行政總處針對這件事情必須要提出一個完整的報告出來"},{"start":2980.672,"end":2992.84,"text":"而且更重要的事情不是單純只有提報告這件事情我們希望能夠儘速的落實實現來回應廣大基層的公務同仁還有老師他們共同的心聲人事長同意嗎"},{"start":2999.908,"end":3013.4,"text":"我想我們會按照委員的一個要求盡速把我希望你這次跟我講說會按照委員的指示來處理不是跟6年前一樣就一樣啊我剛剛不是秀給你看了嗎6年前我們這裡有一段對話坐了6年以後坐在這邊一樣沒有實現啊我應該沒說錯吧"},{"start":3023.635,"end":3032.632,"text":"一尊這副人事長進這人事長所以現在管理比較大嘛現在權力比較大嘛有一些commitment我們還是會去遵循啦好 謝謝"},{"start":3034.633,"end":3061.942,"text":"好我們現在先做一下宣告今天有委員提出臨時提案所以依照本會的往例在登記質詢的本會會員發言告一個段落後處理那我們預計處理臨時提案的時間在早上11點那如果到時候有委員正在詢答就在該位委員詢答完畢之後馬上進行臨時提案好那我們接下來請陳委員俊宇進行詢答"},{"start":3063.527,"end":3091.859,"text":"好謝謝主席我們人事長還有我們所有列席的處長主任各位委員大家早安我想首先來請教我們人事長對於我們這個組織改造的緣而檢討的問題那我們行政院在2023年我們推動了這個組織調整並且完成了五部議會及所屬機關的組織改造的相關工作"},{"start":3092.574,"end":3112.724,"text":"那從去年的8月到這個9月期間就以新的這個機關架構在運作當中那到現在大約已經上路半年左右但當時進行組織改造原而仍然以原有的人數為基準並沒有大幅的增加"},{"start":3113.544,"end":3131.341,"text":"甚至還有這個欲缺不補的這個跡象那對此事我想請教就是我們人事行政總處有沒有定期來做檢討的機制以符合我們機關這個業務的需求也符合政府施政的方針"},{"start":3133.002,"end":3152.66,"text":"好 謝謝委員 我想這分兩個方面來講那個上一年112年的五部議會的主改大概我們人力精簡大概682位然後一個很重要的就是我們在主改的目標我們不希望造成一種大家錯誤的印象"},{"start":3154.339,"end":3179.316,"text":"業主改機關的業膨脹所以我們把待檢的這些延額去做適當的一個減少那然後當然在上一年從8月1號開始到目前的這半年中間也有一些新成立的一個機關他們在業務運作上他需要額外增加的人事實上我們都有跟他們溝通甚至我們還派同仁"},{"start":3179.856,"end":3207.568,"text":"現場去看該給的人我們還是有給那第二個比較常態性的做法就是我們有兩年一度的一個延額評鑑那延額評鑑這是一個非常紮實的一個工作我們會請所有二級機關來去做兩年一度的延額評鑑那最近這兩次我們有做一些微調等於平常我們在看的是以二級機關的角度"},{"start":3208.662,"end":3235.397,"text":"現在我們會抽幾個業務比較重點的像水利署林業保育署或者移民署這些重點的機關我們直接就進到三級機關去協助他們針對嚴若評鑑的一些結果去做一些適當的接應比如像資訊化很多機關都已經有資訊化可是資訊化裡面我們發現資訊化的速度不夠前面"},{"start":3236.237,"end":3253.511,"text":"深度也不夠然後速度也慢了一點像這種我們就會給他一個比較明確的一個概案就希望他可以加快的來做改善比如說像移民署來講移民署我們也去看了兩趟"},{"start":3255.092,"end":3276.761,"text":"因為現在很多E-GATE自動通關了嘛,像日本啊,還有新加坡,他們就大量利用那個自動化人臉辨識的這一種生物特徵的來加速通關嘛,那這一部分我們坦白講也有跟移民署也做了很多的互動,那同樣的這一部分也取得了內政部長的支持"},{"start":3278.191,"end":3307.24,"text":"那聽起來應該我們就是針對這個部分都有在落實做檢討啦齁那也秉持我們這個人事總處的這個當真則真當簡則簡的這個原則啦我希望說因為你在原而做調整做分配的過程裡面也不要去影響到我們公務人員的一個基本條件啦齁他在做工作的時候不要說工作量暴增還是說我們為了要減少人事的開銷然後把人減到讓他們工作量"},{"start":3307.74,"end":3335.966,"text":"不堪負荷的話我覺得這也不適合所以這部分我們還是請我們這個人事總處這邊對於這個滾動式的檢討應該要持續進行那另外我想再請教一下就是為了我們我們這個員工的協助方案方面那我們為了協助這個公務人員解決可能影響工作效能的相關問題並且能夠以健康身心的這個來投入"},{"start":3338.307,"end":3348.474,"text":"行政院從2013年4月定定的行政院所屬的地方機關學校員工協助方案包括工作適應生涯規劃法律諮詢稅務債務保險等財務規劃心理健康等多方面服務"},{"start":3358.553,"end":3380.348,"text":"本期最關心的當然就是公務人員的這個心理健康問題現在不管是民間的企業還是學校都更加的重視員工的這個還有學生的這個心理健康問題可是不同措施機制的這個因應會讓我們公務人員的心理狀況在過去恐怕是一個比較被忽視的一個區塊那"},{"start":3383.363,"end":3404.87,"text":"現在社會普遍認為公務人員因為他們的工作穩定單純在旁人來看他是一個鐵飯碗那近年來因為公務人員離職的相關問題越來越多雖然大部分的人都是說是個人的這個因素而提出離職可是從實際的觀察來看"},{"start":3407.071,"end":3420.9,"text":"很多人都是因為這個所謂的心累那我想請教我們人事長關於公務人員的這個心理健康問題我們人事總處在推動員工的協助方案方面我們處理的情況如何"},{"start":3422.33,"end":3448.901,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會來說明事實上從102年我們重新整建整個行政院跟所屬地方機關學校員工的一個協助方案之後第一個我們是解決知不知道的問題知不知道有這樣的一個機制然後去哪裡看然後會不會的問題會不會假如他個人有這種需要心理諮商需要help"},{"start":3449.619,"end":3450.039,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3466.034,"end":3489.597,"text":"這是一個內部驅動的一個活動同樣的我們也有找外部的支援進來就是說當同仁有需要的時候因為要考慮到他的個人的隱私的問題所以我們會給一組電話我們每一年都會簽約比如像張老師相關的這一些外面的團體或者心理諮商師就請他們打電話當然就是會"},{"start":3490.978,"end":3516.225,"text":"簽一個合約就是百次的來算可是我覺得有一個很重要的部分在制度化的米漿制度化的部分一個很重要的會在哪裡?我們人跟人的溝通應該是互相關心你如果互相關心就有大數化小數化沒有現在很多的問題來自於大家那一種"},{"start":3517.205,"end":3544.277,"text":"互動的密度低阿人跟人的互動的溫度不夠假如辦公室那個溫度有夠大家互相關心一下你像我去南部大家都比較稀薄你有什麼事情我都要你關心一下阿我有什麼事情你幫我倒三天這樣互相料齁其實很多事情會不會遺憾的事情不會發生阿我還是我一直在拜託同仁就是說多關心一下就寒暄溫暖你就幫忙一下"},{"start":3546.198,"end":3551.341,"text":"這個部分我也是請我們人事總處這邊多一點關心你若讓我們的公務人員在他的職場能夠受到溫度的關懷我相信在他的工作"},{"start":3574.592,"end":3576.174,"text":"針對五一勞動節的問題我們就現行面來看勞動節是勞工朋友在放假"},{"start":3593.931,"end":3608.016,"text":"那公務人員還是需要上班可是會造成許多層面的混亂及不方便我們就說這個學生孩子加上家庭這個問題就好了有一些因為家長沒有放假可是學校都放假了"},{"start":3608.817,"end":3637.085,"text":"這孩子要怎麼做所以我們在這個五一勞動節的這個節日方面我們有沒有一個全國性的一致這個想法我們在昨天看到陳建仁這個院長他也有說對於這個部分可以考慮那人事長你也說內部會這個進行評估我想進一步來了解一下對這個部分我們評估的情況如何那未來有沒有可能來推動"},{"start":3638.987,"end":3660.822,"text":"委員報告這件事情就是要based on紀念日及節日實施辦法因為主管機關是內政部所以昨天在執行的時候大概內政部部長也有上去因為這言語在2000年的時候立法院有做一個附帶結議那個休假天數大概115或116"},{"start":3661.963,"end":3686.531,"text":"那這一部分內政部他會去召開一個會議大概我們人總會參加交易部國防部都會參加我們會把相關我們各個機關的代表會把每一個機關所考量的事情在會議上充分討論然後看討論的結果怎樣內政部會簽到行政院行政院合定以後看看就是到final就是看看怎樣"},{"start":3688.331,"end":3705.883,"text":"我還是主張對於五一勞動節的部分我請人事總處跟我們內政部相關部會去做研擬的討論之後能夠有一致性的放假情況才不會造成社會混亂的情況還有一些不方便以上我們接下來請審發會委員發言"},{"start":3718.325,"end":3742.362,"text":"好,人事長早齁這個我看我們的這個包括我們今天的這個業務概況及立法計畫有提到啦齁那我們也行政院也有一個我國少子化的這個對策計畫齁這裡面有關這個關於這個在公部門的這個托育服務的這個部分是我們"},{"start":3743.971,"end":3765.907,"text":"我們這個人事總處的業務對不對我們的任務這個我國這個少子女化對策這是行政院的整個一部跨部會的計畫這個跨部會的計畫裡面我看我們這個人事總處大概就這個現行政策的這個執行策略的部分"},{"start":3767.486,"end":3795.492,"text":"大概我們要負責三個部分一個部分是這個做有關這個各機關落實辦理子女這個托育的這個需求調查作業需求調查是我們的第一個任務第二個就是各機關的這個需求要評估設置評估設置也是我們第二個任務第三個就是我們要協助各機關來設置這實際的設置大概這三個部分是我們這個人事總處要負責那這個再過"},{"start":3796.992,"end":3809.952,"text":"再過兩天就婦女節,所以我們對這個有關家庭托育的公部門托育機關的設置的部分今天特別來這邊就教我們人事長"},{"start":3812.614,"end":3839.191,"text":"這個我們目前齁目前有關這個我們人事總處所辦理的這個鼓勵各機關積極設置職場托育的這個設施我們有這個按計在追蹤嗎有辦理相關的評比嗎有有我跟委員報告一下我們是每三個月追蹤一次然後每一年都有辦那個比賽然後也追蹤什麼"},{"start":3840.792,"end":3844.336,"text":"我們現在對中的不是一般的狀況是各機關各機關到底"},{"start":3865.848,"end":3886.4,"text":"有無要籌設有無要設置我們評比的部份也是針對設置的部份評比而不是針對他辦理的績效或是辦理的狀況來評比是不是這樣?最主要我要向委員說明一件事就是他要設置一半你的情形因為說這個啦打幾回到這情形難免會有落差"},{"start":3889.242,"end":3907.687,"text":"因為在規劃的時候坦白講因為有很多是建築法規消防安全的一些規定所以我們這個部分也有請相關部會來協助衛福部及教育部這組會來倒三天因為那些加課人總是沒辦法答到你的委員你說的一個重點是應該就是說我們三個會去做什麼事情"},{"start":3912.436,"end":3918.46,"text":"我們評比什麼部分我們評比他的什麼因為他辦理的狀況現在目前是教育部或是衛福部在評估他辦理的狀況那我們評比什麼我們人種評比什麼哪一個部分"},{"start":3932.169,"end":3941.817,"text":"我跟委員 委員報告我們是一個複合式的 不是人種直接去評我們會找教育部跟衛福部還有一些專家學者一起評評我們在評什麼東西 我們評比的內容是什麼主要評比於什麼我委員報告啦齁"},{"start":3954.96,"end":3961.021,"text":"第一是籌備週期的作業的遭延性減30%推動設置作業的積極性這部分35%比如像籌備工作小組面對籌設過程中面臨的問題要如何處理還有它整個進度管控還有沒有完成的這一些相關的管控第三就是完成設置"},{"start":3983.266,"end":3990.771,"text":"主要除了這個效益性我們跟他辦理的狀況無關是說他的這個到底有多少人多少員工在使用或者他有多少這個是所謂效益性在大部分你們的評比狀況都是在設置的部分"},{"start":4010.721,"end":4023.392,"text":"有些是屬於他的procedure現在就是說針對我們設置之後包括我們的公務員員他使用的包括他的滿意度或者他的使用狀況的優劣這個部分我們沒有進行評比對不對"},{"start":4031.513,"end":4054.721,"text":"有沒有做過這方面的調查還是我們只做到設置為止沒有 那個完成設置的那一套的話我就委員報告 第三項就是說我們洩料料 送託子女的人數 員工送託子女比例 員工的滿意度我們提供量化的資料 因為這部分很重要為了給他洩料 就是我幫忙他裡面的服務的滿意度還有沒有滿意度我們也有"},{"start":4061.204,"end":4078.461,"text":"這部分很重要因為這部分很重要再來我們有做需求的調查嗎就是還有哪一些機關他有這樣子設置這種托育的需求這個部分我們有調查嗎有有有那調查結果我們今年預計"},{"start":4080.222,"end":4095.831,"text":"今年度預計要新設的有多少?一百十三年嗎?對,一百十三年,就是已經,我預計,不是已經設多少,是預計今年會增設多少?多少機關會增設?這部分應該會拖到差不多三四月,因為我還在...現在就三月了"},{"start":4102.455,"end":4128.748,"text":"應該是要再三月再四月因為這件事我有委員報告因為還要配合衛福部跟教育部我知道但是現在也已經三月了今年到底今年有多少機關有這樣的需求我們應該是有調查那我們預計今年調查需求之後那今年大概會設置多少我們應該有一個目標"},{"start":4130.492,"end":4153.694,"text":"大概是3月底可以出來吧?3月底才會出來是不是?這是兩個層次的問題第一個是有沒有需要的問題有需求是另外一件事我們現在評估我們到現在3月我們評估今年度會增設"},{"start":4156.014,"end":4180.374,"text":"因為這件事我委員報告啦 因為那個我還沒說啦因為他就要有空間 要的空間是不是有下熱所消防的相關的法律規定那個是我們在開始設置之後的審查沒有沒有沒有我們大概今年大概會預計設置多少所 我們沒有一個目標嗎或者是沒有一個預計嗎"},{"start":4182.296,"end":4191.644,"text":"現在我們就是透過一個機制請衛福部跟教育部大家去提讓大家提看有幾個機關有這個相關的環境是否有這個規定我希望說你們在這個3月底以前能夠把今年我們的計畫設置的這個做一個盤點做一個統計可以嗎"},{"start":4207.267,"end":4216.444,"text":"好我來就合照要告有報告那再來就是說我們剛剛也提到說你們有針對他們這個設置做一些評比這些評比有沒有定期有沒有在公佈呢"},{"start":4218.447,"end":4220.148,"text":"目前你們這樣子的評比是樹面審查還是實地勘查?"},{"start":4242.032,"end":4263.437,"text":"有些書審有些實地審查會採兩種兩種是兩種都要並行還是看心情沒有沒有沒有大概會有有些是書名還有比較重要的他會去實地那邊比較沒有重要的用書名比較重要的那類似書審跟實地的那個會分兩種這個我是覺得我們做評比齁"},{"start":4270.478,"end":4270.798,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4291.611,"end":4311.276,"text":"最好我了解一下我們這個去年的1月有通過公務人員的任用法第22條第二項就是他可以依照他自己托兒的需求可以調任這個是公務人員任用法第22條第二項"},{"start":4313.298,"end":4326.125,"text":"這個條文從去年2月17號開始實施到現在已經滿一年了我請問這個人事長我們這一年今年這個年度從去年2月17實施到現在有多少公務人員有用這條這條這個第22條第二項的"},{"start":4330.387,"end":4356.25,"text":"的這個規定來請調的我跟委員報告我們總共有73位73位同仁有73位總共有73位是所以事實上這個我們這個第22條第二項的他的一年有有70幾位同仁表示說這個這個條文事實上是是的修法是真的是有對對這個公務公務人員的這個這個育兒是真的有很大的幫助吧"},{"start":4357.093,"end":4385.73,"text":"事實上是因為絕對有這個需要所以所以這三天看起來沒做但是其實沒做這個部分我們還是要評估辦理的成效啦齁那也要這個這個關於這個法規是不是我們做滾動式的情況這個法規是不是還有能夠更進一步的提供給公務人員一些這個在在育兒上面的一些一些方便齁這個請我們人事總書要多加研究好不好好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":4388.715,"end":4412.525,"text":"好謝謝,那我們請下一位謝龍介委員發言林書長你好聽你台語講得不錯,你的考驗很像我們南部的當然啦是這樣喔?這樣喔?你每天的經驗好啊"},{"start":4419.338,"end":4445.467,"text":"哇!你都把我哄得這麼清楚啊你今天報告裡面齁就提到說這個當真則真啦當簡則簡啦齁精神真好不如就在那天蘇菀英的報告裡面齁有一部分本色是支持啦但是有一部分我沒認同為什麼?"},{"start":4448.319,"end":4474.795,"text":"一百一十二年本來提到這個立法院喔就是說檢察官助理啊這個事情那聽起來改成所有的委員都蠻贊成因為詐騙很多嘛大家針對這個希望我們幫助辦理檢察管罪結果沒想出來啊沒想出來今年又來提一個"},{"start":4476.513,"end":4498.501,"text":"高等法院 我想都沒有了所以我一天跟司法院的秘書長說你這就想要愛人了嘛 偷渡嘛利用大家在支持檢察官 其實檢察官 檢察官助理檢視官裡面已經缺額都不足了缺額達到25%啦檢視官的部分啦"},{"start":4507.626,"end":4528.593,"text":"要來增加檢察官處理,我本身認為可能因應網路犯罪,所以需要一些新的改良如果這樣,跟你隔天歡迎司法事務官,還要祈請,我認為你個人在專業,你有支持這種看法嗎?我們說隔天歡迎的部分"},{"start":4537.506,"end":4545.053,"text":"閣定範圍的部份說真的啦,因為他們要請假,要做什麼的工作,那個資料還沒報過來啦沒有啦,報告有啊嘛,我們那個報告就有啊,拜的報告就有啊應該他來這裡報告之後,我們那個人事應該你要很快就收集到才對啊"},{"start":4557.202,"end":4559.204,"text":"本來立法院是蠻支持就是說檢查事務官"},{"start":4587.779,"end":4605.543,"text":"理由說要衝捉可是他沒有送過來他也沒衝他就把流裝不發啊去想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想"},{"start":4617.553,"end":4632.826,"text":"應該支持就應該支持嘛沒有那個必要有什麼硬要處理你敢知道地方辦案檢察官檢視官包括現在講的檢察官助理那些詐騙的案件他所有都侵犯喔判2名以上的幾乎是有救救喔案件那麼多全部都侵犯"},{"start":4644.689,"end":4666.924,"text":"那抓詐騙的一堆人那這些詐騙的案件最後侵犯的結果就是再犯率很高嘛甚至有的第一班都沒在看啊啊當然發光光這都車手啊啊既然都這樣都要侵犯了你增加這些人力幹什麼最高法院你整個這裡的人力有什麼意義啊你以你的專業你給我分析講一下"},{"start":4670.157,"end":4695.389,"text":"我委員報告因為委員講一個很重要的就是監察那些到司法那些他們的裁判的那個判決有時候跟我們的期待會有一些落差啦因為我有很多檢察官的朋友這不是說判決他起訴警察當然最好判決是在法官的掛點嘛是"},{"start":4697.881,"end":4716.91,"text":"你現在檢視官的缺額差不多27%嘛我們說就是他所有一清三罷整個檢察官裡面缺額也差不多780個啊這個檢視官啦 檢視官 你說的是檢視官啦有啦 我剛才跟你說檢察官是差不多100個"},{"start":4723.936,"end":4725.499,"text":"那檢視官缺額達到27.6% 什麼原因?"},{"start":4725.499,"end":4728.484,"text":"欸 他的薪水不錯捏 我看 一個月八萬八捏啊 為什麼還要補不定?"},{"start":4736.857,"end":4750.41,"text":"我委員報告一個因為是勞役不均嗎不是檢視官他現在的一個問題我覺得是有改善的機會因為他那個訓練中手一年過程可以訓練多少人我是覺得因為他那個訓練是高高位啦"},{"start":4755.371,"end":4763.335,"text":"檢查事務官要訓練9個月才能夠用找一個空間本來現在假設是90個農訓量你去找一個200個農訓量啊儘快補啊因為現在是不找啊我不知道啊那有法務部那邊有其他的客戶吧你講我多敢協助你找一個協助的辦法讓本縣來替你執行"},{"start":4786.017,"end":4813.22,"text":"我提供一些資料給委員我提供一些資料給委員本末倒置嘛一定是有虧啦有虧啦當然有虧啊沒有人要寫什麼關鍵啊這應該不是薪水的問題薪水不錯啊要備完備完備啊好啦年改六年以後這一堆軍公告退休的人那你說五年要"},{"start":4814.462,"end":4818.183,"text":"條件一遍啦 檢討一遍嘛 啊 幾年檢討的結果是怎樣?幾年到今年會檢討 因為這件事 危機現狀嗎?對不對?沒有 之前專屬部委員會 現在在檢討啦退休齁 在17年 2017年開始啦齁 我還講 原本差不多3% 現在感覺差不多1.8%齁"},{"start":4846.469,"end":4874.169,"text":"機關內都老化學校的老師都高齡化為什麼?因為沒有保障,他覺得體育沒有保障他的體育金到現在的體育制度沒有發達可以讓他擁有所以大家都要吐到65萬尤其是地方政府我的想法是你的高雄台南就是這樣"},{"start":4875.424,"end":4877.566,"text":"這部分其實目前我們大概就是針對退休的公務同仁我們會每四年檢討或者他的那個消費者物價只超過5%會去檢討啦這樣多少會"},{"start":4903.804,"end":4917.053,"text":"舒緩一下,但是有一個很重要的概念,我委員報告一下因為現在是少子化,現在要進來公務機關的人會比較少那些人我伴出去的,對經驗的傳承還是有幫助的啦你看我講到邊緣會比較少是因為前面沒人拿開闊就越來越少啦,不是要進來會比較少啦就是隔年外一種少就是因為退休沒有保障啦"},{"start":4934.008,"end":4947.878,"text":"所以大家變成你不要講不順,不像以前那樣你不就要尖對本席講,你總要講表明,不然我們兩個你講我講你跟我共用公教人員的條心有沒有黑箱"},{"start":4949.594,"end":4953.935,"text":"專業家族有黑箱嗎?專業家族24宗都外公開出來啊公務另外還有6.2%6.25%6.25%6.25%6.25%6.25%6.25%6.25%6.25%6.25%6.25%"},{"start":4972.892,"end":4975.914,"text":"我最好跟你說,性別平等工作法裡面公務人員及一般企業不一樣"},{"start":4999.96,"end":5006.428,"text":"就是說公務領完的、教育領完、軍製的領完,它有哪個適用,但是33條、34條、38跟38之一不在此限這給公務領完受很多委屈,受委屈的人它沒辦法,你要怎麼解決"},{"start":5018.856,"end":5038.047,"text":"這部份其實我們有跟外部我們是跟教育部跟衛福部還有保訓會事實上有在溝通協調他現在想到性騷擾他要怎麼處理啊他申訴的管道路照啊不會啦你給我們寫一個書面的書面好啦好啦好"},{"start":5043.871,"end":5067.882,"text":"好,謝謝榮介委員。那我們接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言。謝謝主席。出庭我來延續剛剛那個陳委員的一些問題,再來追問一下。就是說五一勞動節,到底公務人員要不要放這個問題。那我相信在整個公務人員的要不要放假的一個決定,其實目的世界主管機關一定的權責嘛。公務人員。"},{"start":5072.168,"end":5077.715,"text":"我委員報告,這個紀念日是節日實施辦法,他的主管機關內政部?我知道啦,那是定義,那是元頭,元頭那是用來料議案跟節日實施辦法,這個當然是內政部啦,就這個問題喔,必考題啦,每年大家都會問啦"},{"start":5094.313,"end":5101.855,"text":"您本地在去年這條在討論的時候您的回應是內政部去研究就像你剛才說的紀念日及節日時事辦法其實委員本案要提升至法的位階本來就沒有出委員會所以大家都安眠小便但是內政部這邊的一個講法就是希望您可以算命但是您說什麼都說得都太誇張"},{"start":5122.54,"end":5131.591,"text":"你去年的公判也是說 雷正博的言議 但是每天都在這樣說 有什麼進度沒有 你有提供什麼見解給雷正博嗎 我覺得這才是重點 以前你看到兒童節要綁不綁"},{"start":5140.729,"end":5140.949,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5168.424,"end":5188.318,"text":"適用勞動基準法這個定義是公法上的一個契約所以大部分就是沒有辦法去用五一勞動節來放假我來記兩個例比如說一個單位裡面的一個同時有公務人員有約聘人員還有派遣親子的臨時人員你遇到勞動節的時候你就很麻煩了是不是這樣說"},{"start":5192.418,"end":5201.516,"text":"政府部門你最有精準計畫有些不是事用公募都有付法事用公募有付法事用公募有付法事用公募有付法事用公募有付法事用公募有付法事用公募有付法事用公募有付法"},{"start":5203.331,"end":5204.591,"text":"一般人做法規是一間辦公室內一間辦公室內你不要說什麼,只有中央跟地方光這些公職人員,議員也好你說這個幕僚、這個主力"},{"start":5227.998,"end":5228.258,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5241.538,"end":5261.291,"text":"議會有的要運作啊 頭家上班 助理都不用上班 也確實也好奇怪啦 也好奇怪啊但是呢 我的意思是說基本上齁 其實這些幕僚應該來講都是配合著公家單位休息 做洗時間啦齁 因為大家要做工作 要休息就休息啦 所以大家都沒辦法啦 我們說實在啦"},{"start":5266.835,"end":5283.149,"text":"其實這些人也都是為這個社會在付出,但是都被勞動節給遺忘掉。那其實我也很清楚,有非常大的困難就是在於你看這個教職人員的部分,老鼠綁,學生又來,又出了這個問題。"},{"start":5288.097,"end":5291.12,"text":"就變成就是 如果要放大人 孩子不知道要怎麼做如果要放孩子 大人不知道要怎麼做就整個綜綁 剛好是大人的部分所以這樣子雙重考量之下 您搞不好一定跟全國性的同樣的內政部一樣"},{"start":5304.518,"end":5310.704,"text":"內政部就變成說他們去修紀念日跟節日的實施辦法那你從第五條第二項地方直接將勞動節比照兒童節模式你全部都放一天這樣可以嗎"},{"start":5330.162,"end":5333.526,"text":"你的態度如何?我的態度跟委員相同啦對阿這樣可以吧這樣應該對阿不然說得這麼清楚他不可以這樣說我跟你相同你完全敘述一下"},{"start":5344.266,"end":5347.549,"text":"這個問題我是覺得有一個態度啦好不好,不要一間辦公室,不要一間辦公室,那邊有棒,那邊沒棒"},{"start":5367.205,"end":5377.26,"text":"這公家機關最常常碰到這個問題那當然接下來我要問的就是說最近應該你也看到了這個金門海域這個山巫船舶這個那海巡的弟兄發生這個事"},{"start":5381.431,"end":5394.387,"text":"我看他們都是非常的盡忠職守,守護我們的一個海疆,他們的工作其實也很多,他們的工作多到你看那些有時候因為我平常我自己選兩屆,我稍微順便做個第四屆,但是我選前面那兩屆就選得順,我要選過去三個海"},{"start":5398.872,"end":5399.012,"text":"主席"},{"start":5415.411,"end":5434.496,"text":"沒辦法這個政府的人力我們都是把它用到最極致也就是說他們的工作其實也非常高壓其實不只是海巡很多機關都是苦於這個人力那也不時的提出希望說增加援俄的一個聲音這個我相信也都聲音都聽見了"},{"start":5436.596,"end":5452.806,"text":"那麼多的機關裡面光你們中央那麼多機關都強調人力不足啊那你們的態度我也很清楚啦你怎麼覺得說中央機關總緣合辦法來精神來對政府用人就是精實的立法的意志又對立法院又笑笑立法院有時候還說你不能浪費有的沒的機關要精簡理論上都對"},{"start":5460.322,"end":5475.477,"text":"政府的用人精實的立法意識你懂人力優先調整你現在都在施法邊境管理交易環保矯正檢查社會及交通運輸業務今年預計22萬但是你們都一直在強調相對行政院組織原額減少1.2萬的金錢"},{"start":5478.88,"end":5481.282,"text":"臨時人員及派遣勞工分別9073至6644可是在疫情趨緩後的"},{"start":5506.762,"end":5522.579,"text":"2022年臨時人員6613人這表示你採取的約聘僱的方式來支撐國家公務體系你們還是一個常態會不會引發大家一直在講的同工不同從你也看到這個問題但你也繼續用"},{"start":5528.09,"end":5538.751,"text":"委員報告齁 剛才委員齁 講的那個臨時領域大概是會用在那個有改大型的啦你有改大型的工科齁 就不會輸"},{"start":5539.705,"end":5563.283,"text":"這件事有一個階段性的我就說兩年三年我們用臨時的因為公務人員你也知道他的保障他也靠一次下來一直要繼續用是啦但是政府的考慮也是一個改變性一個就是業務的進攻現有能力的編制不足然後用臨時能力來補的概念所以也是不該"},{"start":5567.552,"end":5580.846,"text":"結論就是不應該這塊我們都有在控制而且我們有控制一個百分比15%以來所以那幾%裡面你就是要去人手你要去買要去他們考慮本來就是要同工不同酬"},{"start":5582.625,"end":5597.265,"text":"我是覺得有些工作都一樣那當然涉及到身份保障的問題還有進行的方式不同但是還是要盡量去克服這方面這個確實是也都討論了那麼久那我最後一個問題要請教就是說"},{"start":5598.186,"end":5607.631,"text":"有二領新的總統要上任,他的政見內有一人就是要成立體育運動發展部這你也很清楚的,這當然是為體育界藝術更多的一個幫助以前體育署早前變成體育委會,未來是馬政府的首長委"},{"start":5621.687,"end":5624.91,"text":"提升主管體育事務層級的組織的一個變動才要三條路第一 最關鍵當然就是新的部會"},{"start":5640.265,"end":5640.965,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5657.128,"end":5676.358,"text":"那不太可能嘛那我要請教你就以你專業的經驗分析來看過去像國科會也變成科技部但是回來又再變成國科會哪一種方式最能夠提升體育運動事務的支持以外也最符合你們組織基準法的提升施政效能的立法意志"},{"start":5678.323,"end":5694.739,"text":"我是從我剛才兩個角度來看第一類似韓國的文化觀光體育部但是這件事要國內大家要有共識他就覺得我很重要我不要去跟文化觀光合作會"},{"start":5695.9,"end":5716.699,"text":"要溝通這個有時候溝通的難度蠻高的所以大家想簡單的我就是成立一個體育部但是我覺得現在在總研俄法上線的行政院最好的方式因為我觀察這幾天我們的體育表現都不錯"},{"start":5719.762,"end":5726.267,"text":"主要就是你的主管要放那麼多下去這當然啦 這一定啦 我就問你其實要引出來的問題其實就是你看嘛 那個整個那個農委會升格後 人一定增加嘛你現在搞不好你現在去裡面體育部不管你用什麼方式成立一個部 你人也一定增加嘛我怕是怕你告訴我 臨時人員派軍工的方式來達到這個整個公務的量能"},{"start":5749.841,"end":5777.058,"text":"你剛才就講一半了好不好他這個齁 裡面會有牽涉到他未來禁用人員的專長類型因為他說這個 提供選手為助民 他們是運動員你如果要請他進來提供補護服務 他沒有科企的資格嘛當然啦你就要用那個類似教育人員 看他有沒有教育人員身份嘛不然你怕他就去藥品的"},{"start":5777.278,"end":5777.358,"text":"主席"},{"start":5794.469,"end":5810.258,"text":"像新的部會機關部門成立以後人員禁用達到整個公務的量能甚至它的效能那只是合理的但是你去把人家不要去注意你像那個數位部變成部了以後"},{"start":5812.679,"end":5824.005,"text":"上路已經一年多 您可以檢討人力的成效 人力補足 還是應該去調整的地方 這些基本如果沒有做到的話 做不成事了"},{"start":5826.633,"end":5832.198,"text":"我委員報告 數位部你不是去問譚部長我討論各位站起來問你有需要請人嗎他最近告訴我他要請二十個要去做打雜相關因為他有些是屬於電商的這一些治安的還有打雜的問題他說醜婆"},{"start":5845.649,"end":5845.709,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5865.247,"end":5868.19,"text":"主席一個權宜事項今天天氣比較冷是不是可以請會長幹事把空調溫度稍微控制一下"},{"start":5889.266,"end":5889.946,"text":"市長,你覺得今天冷嗎?"},{"start":5917.001,"end":5920.482,"text":"人事長我看到你過去的資歷你之前都是電算機應用你認為你這個資管的專長對於HR就是人力資源的管理有幫助嗎?"},{"start":5942.574,"end":5948.565,"text":"本來沒有去注意到他很有幫助後來發現幫助非常大那怎麼具體來講"},{"start":5950.031,"end":5975.971,"text":"因為我覺得在整個為什麼會有這樣強烈的感覺就是因為在少子化的過程裡面未來會進到你這樣講太長講到少子化我就要想30年了我直接問你啦你認為是不是可以運用科技能不能增進政府的效能那十三十個啦我再請教一下AI可以用在詐騙那AI可不可以用來辦案你可以看一下為什麼這個畫面又跑掉了呢"},{"start":5977.062,"end":5996.026,"text":"對不起齁 你們畫面把它調過來 因為這樣的話那個人事長看不到齁譬如說有一個AI的深衛房仿生詐騙你講五秒啊 它就會變成跟你的聲音一樣或者說有個新聞說透過AI成功的變臉成公司的總公司高層跟香港分公司騙了8億元你有沒有看過這樣的詐騙 有嗎 有嗎齁阿你假如說拍到用AI警察綁在裡面 我就用AI來辦案查案嗎"},{"start":6005.646,"end":6014.134,"text":"主席有啊 主席有喔 好 既然是這樣 我進一步來問啦 那麼如果可以透過AI 有沒有辦法可以用來處理文書跟輔佐行政"},{"start":6016.5,"end":6037.718,"text":"這是更容易啊那你們有在做了嗎有那你們可以舉個例子你們現在一般我們政府用了大量的約聘戶人力都是輔佐人力其實他做的工作就是什麼他不是做核心業務他在輔佐嘛對不對阿在文書業務的處理上包括傳統的文書業務啦櫃台啦查詢啦這些有沒有可能用這個方式將我們的約聘戶人力做一個精簡"},{"start":6039.64,"end":6068.533,"text":"我跟委員報告一下我們有實務上在做的兩件一個是用RPA的方式RPA就是我們尤其像某些像類似主計總署我們也辦了很多訓練課程就RPA的那有沒有成效有沒有因此這些機關降低了對月賓服人力的依賴有沒有不忙的單位比較不忙了嘛人力就可以回收嘛比較新鎮的忙的單位就讓他來做這個月賓服人力嘛"},{"start":6069.544,"end":6071.106,"text":"幾年的累積以後我們機關總緣合法有沒有公務人員的總緣合上線當然有"},{"start":6091.724,"end":6092.804,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6120.103,"end":6121.443,"text":"公務人員將近17萬,約聘募人力1萬5大家機關都要用約聘募人力,都用滿了沒有?沒有沒有"},{"start":6138.513,"end":6138.673,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6160.592,"end":6164.54,"text":"他是擺每一個機關我知道分開的計算方式但總數上就不會超過5%嘛每個機關都是5%的上限總原額只會比5%少嘛對不對"},{"start":6171.533,"end":6199.979,"text":"一定是這樣 是數學原理嘛你每一個單位都賣這超過百分之一五全部加起來十七萬對啦來 我要怎麼說你說到時間我告訴你我在二十幾年前我在地方政府服務的時候剛好我們地政機關跟戶政機關大量採用電腦所以原來傳統的篡寫人力啊就沒需要了嘛你知道這段歷史嗎好 現在你就要開始準備啊當AI跟科技可以來協助政府的文書處理跟輔佐人力的時候"},{"start":6200.359,"end":6200.579,"text":"主席"},{"start":6215.532,"end":6221.514,"text":"有些單位已經採用了這些科技已經降級到樓頂嘛對不對那當然進一步就可以減少人力嘛那這個節省出來的人力卻挪到其他新的部門嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":6240.52,"end":6246.266,"text":"目前你認為因應業務的狀況調整性是在改變政府的業務用AI來增加政府的效能有沒有可能?"},{"start":6247.506,"end":6247.826,"text":"委員報告啦因為齁"},{"start":6277.769,"end":6289.115,"text":"檢察官助理他可以扮演的角色跟檢察司務官我知你不要講檢察官 檢察官助理你有機器沒有啦檢察官多年助理來打戰你支持嗎"},{"start":6290.134,"end":6312.304,"text":"我 我說真的我不支持哇 你不支持嚇我一跳捏 我想說你願意支持 因為不支持什麼原因 來我們看看是不是這個原因你認為你不支持的原因是什麼我希望這些人力是補充檢查事務官你希望是做檢查事務官 所以你認為你要報 用的是報檢查事務官 不要去報檢查官助理檢查官助理跟檢查事務官 一個是公務人力 一個是閱評部人力 對不對"},{"start":6313.226,"end":6314.228,"text":"公務人力編制"},{"start":6325.933,"end":6348.828,"text":"檢註是什麼?是閱兵部人力喔?不是,我跟委員報告喔檢查事務官他可以實施搜索、扣押他可以做的事情比較多請問告訴人、告發人還有研擬、調查計畫檢查官處理我聽懂了因為如果是公務編制人力他可以執行公務人員的職權但是如果檢註呢他只能做一些文書處理協助輔佐工作對不對?"},{"start":6350.009,"end":6350.109,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6368.081,"end":6387.714,"text":"就是說有沒有可能用AI來處理檢疫的文書事務就是原來檢察官他們覺得要檢註做的事情鼓勵他們用AI或科技來解決然後你擴增他的檢察事務官的緣額讓他檢察官有真正可以協助他執行公權力的公務人力你覺得這是你的想法嗎"},{"start":6389.797,"end":6415.917,"text":"我委員報告這個分兩個階段來的,你會一群人直接跳到AI來辦?沒有啦,我不說一群啦,你來給我看現在運用AI來處理檢疫文書事務,來你看一下兩個司法院的新聞稿他就說了目前酒駕跟詐騙他的檢疫判決,他們基本上就是用AI處理的然後輸出一個判決書的檢疫的主文之後"},{"start":6416.997,"end":6436.169,"text":"法官在看內容有沒有調整 因為檢疫判決嘛 檢疫判決為什麼可以檢疫判決 交通事務也要檢疫判決啊 為什麼交通事務要檢疫判決要交通裁決所 因為量很大嘛 適用的樣態又單純嘛 很快就處理完了 如果司法院可以用檢疫判決用AI來降低他們這些核心能力的"},{"start":6437.411,"end":6447.393,"text":"負擔那你認為檢察官目前在打擊犯罪包括的起訴文書有沒有可能也可以參照這個方式有沒有可能就好了有沒有可能"},{"start":6449.144,"end":6475.235,"text":"現在已經有有少數幾個地檢署就按照這樣那你支持嗎那現在就在這裡了我們看那麼你認為在擴增檢察官助理的緣和同時或者說按照你的意思不是檢察官助理因為檢察官助理只能做輔佐他是約聘人力如果是檢察事務官多一點透過考試禁用他可以協助檢察官執行公權力的話"},{"start":6476.235,"end":6493.323,"text":"那再增加這個不管是哪一種你是不是同時要去檢討全國目前各級機關他運用業務人力的分布及運用狀況需不需要需要需要好那好那就很簡單那結論就兩個第一請應檢討目前各級政府的業務人員分布及運用狀況可以嗎"},{"start":6494.965,"end":6495.606,"text":"我們接下來請吳士耀委員發言"},{"start":6517.553,"end":6545.124,"text":"謝謝主席人事長：我們所有人事總處的同仁大家早安大家辛苦了人事長你好我們都是台南鄉親人親土親我是司法及法制委員會蔡佳娃事由在這次如果有什麼不正確的地方歡迎您隨時指正我絕對不會說你在藐視國會我想我們質詢是平起平坐大家來做一個正向的政策之間的辯論"},{"start":6546.524,"end":6571.179,"text":"這是一個健康的、歡迎應當的態度所以今天我要就教於您照顧好公務員是您很重要的這個人事總處的責任那我要跟您拋出我過去在教育文化委員會我長期投入的心理諮商的機制跟心理架這一個新的概念在中華民國的公務體系能不能夠更進一步的獲得實現下一頁"},{"start":6574.401,"end":6593.053,"text":"當然我們民進黨這屆我們對於公務員的調薪是漲幅是15年來最高不論在漲幅或者是在調薪的次數蔡英文總統都做得比馬英九總統更加用心也不過我們替我們的公務人員在進出更加好的福利計劃"},{"start":6594.654,"end":6608.502,"text":"我們的辭職率這是我整理出來的最新的數字到2022我們的辭職率是一年一年的攀升從2019 1994人到2022已經來到2496人將近到2500這起辭職率就是我的這個所謂的鐵飯碗我都不要了"},{"start":6621.05,"end":6625.396,"text":"那當然我們人事總處有針對辭職原因做一些調研：我認為我們現有對於公務同仁的辭職原因我們做的那樣的一個調查分析實在是非常的rough"},{"start":6637.23,"end":6651.44,"text":"譬如說這是你們2022做的調查好,百分之八十八是個人因素離開百分之四點一七工作不適應管理的不當二點一二待遇福利覺得不夠好的是一點六所以這是一個"},{"start":6652.941,"end":6670.894,"text":"認為公務體系待遇福利不好而離開的人只有1.6%代表也驗證我們這幾年照顧公務人員是有留人也留心這是一個好的政策工具盡可能滿足大家在待遇上的需求那當然有人是個人的職癌發展1.12%他選擇離開了公務體系我在這裡我直接拋出來就是預防我們的辭職"},{"start":6678.78,"end":6678.88,"text":"這部份來"},{"start":6692.13,"end":6710.06,"text":"非常謝謝委員的這個意見,事實上我們也非常關注這個議題因為這個資料庫的維護是在全序部,我們過去有跟他溝通幾次他那個辭職原因,有時那個寫的理由太冷了,要寫得比較柔和要寫得比較柔和,我要統計分析才能夠比較明確,不常常說"},{"start":6719.645,"end":6721.546,"text":"強化跟全序部這裡的溝通好不好有利於我們未來來做很多的強化優化對因為我們很多分析來自於這個顆粒業系我們分析的業精準"},{"start":6742.678,"end":6764.12,"text":"那下一頁就是自殺數這是非常遺憾十一年來我們的公務員自殺案件都是雙位數包括2023年有22位公務人員選擇親生而離開新聞非常多包括前幾天在總統府前的憲兵他也自殘了"},{"start":6764.6,"end":6779.169,"text":"雖然憲兵不是我們公務體系您這裡掌管但都呈現了我們的心理健康機制不要漏接每一個生命這個東西是我今天要跟您討論一個很重要的一個issue"},{"start":6780.609,"end":6805.535,"text":"人總在有一個員工協助方案你應該是一個上位的guideline然後讓各部會去執行對不對那我看到的問題是我們依行政院所屬及地方機關的這個協助方案裡頭提供心理諮商啦身心健康座談啦保健醫療資訊啦還有健康評量檢測健康促進活動等等這個guideline"},{"start":6808.876,"end":6821.831,"text":"實在有夠guideline你沒有管考沒有細緻到去follow各個部會誰做得好誰做得不夠我來分享我教育部門的做法好嗎下一頁教育部有很好的經驗比如說2021年教育部就依據你的這個Guideline"},{"start":6826.756,"end":6845.632,"text":"去成立了教師諮商輔導支持中心這個跟師大合作的可以有效來協助我們第一線的教育人員專業諮詢、個別諮詢、團體諮詢或是心理危機的介入方方面面都很努力去做下一個"},{"start":6846.792,"end":6866.896,"text":"所以藉經教育部的這個制度也是私謠長期來協力的我們甚至修了教師法33條就明定了教育部應當本於照顧教職員工建立教師諮詢諮商的輔導支持體系我們在法規面有法源組織面就成立了我剛剛說的專責單位2021年成立的"},{"start":6870.217,"end":6894.296,"text":"在預算面呢,我們甚至加碼去針對第一線的教職老師們從原先教育部每年補助地方政府650萬,現在一年提高到6000萬。所以我被群聽這次有報的製度就是說,同樣一個概念,有的部會很認真去做。當然教育部看到很多老師他承受的這個教學現場的教學壓力。"},{"start":6895.237,"end":6922.814,"text":"但是各個部會的同仁們我相信坐在後面的同仁們每天如果就安排到你們到立法院你們今天應該都很不露因為不知道你們承受什麼樣的心理壓力但是我希望你們看到司堯姊姊的時候是可以開心一點我們是可以非常理性的對話我一定是替公務同仁來爭取大家必要的合理的各項支持好 下一頁看完教育我們來看司法院週一我才就叫過司法院的秘書長"},{"start":6924.035,"end":6941.02,"text":"司法人員他的這個高壓也絕對是大家可以想像的他要承受很多審判當中生離死別判人重判人輕那個永遠在糾葛人都是感情做的都是肉做的都是血溶成的"},{"start":6941.66,"end":6965.134,"text":"司法院也看到體恤他所有的司法人員的工作壓力所以推出司法院的心理健康關懷方案2019上路到現在每年有729人次去使用這樣一個心理健康方案而且他非常優渥跟人事長報告每人每次補助2500元可以去做心理諮商一年可以到8次"},{"start":6966.235,"end":6974.868,"text":"這是司法院在照顧司法人員的心理健康好再下一頁那這個是蔡總統的五大心理健康方案"},{"start":6976.119,"end":7004.468,"text":"這已經是溢出於我們公務體系之外是全民我們針對了15到30歲的青年族群每年給三次的心理諮商每次1600然後一年三次這個預算一直加碼因為我們it's good newsbut also bad news好消息是很多人供不應求來來申請這個機會但bad news就是我們真的真真切切看到很多年輕世代他需要心理諮商的幫忙"},{"start":7006.028,"end":7032.293,"text":"這是國家在做的事情照顧年輕人剛剛教育部照顧老師司法院照顧司法人員下一頁這是我擔任委員這麼多年我非常有成就感的一個政策的協力跟催生我成功的協助倡議各個大學具有心理價這樣一個新的價別從我第一次兩年前2022年站上質詢台質詢所有"},{"start":7036.423,"end":7044.297,"text":"公立大學包括技職校院的校長們那個時候只有兩個學校有行李架就是實踐大學跟中山大學"},{"start":7045.219,"end":7069.259,"text":"一年多到現在已經有43所大學設立了心理健康假而心理假不是只讓學生放假而已他是可以讓這個三級處遇的機制可以接住誰請心理假就知道這個可能最近失戀囉這個可能最近爸媽吵架學校要介入一下讓這個三級的心腹制度能夠有預警"},{"start":7070.16,"end":7098.923,"text":"這是心理假最正向的意義所以43所大學上路了現在各大學都持續在推動它成為一個校園的運動照顧心理健康關懷你身邊的每一個人心靈生病跟身體生病是一樣要等同關切的而且它有連帶關係好 老幾樣然後我們進一步教育部現在最新的制度是現在開始3月開始高中職也開始來做心理假"},{"start":7100.325,"end":7116.604,"text":"所以我做了這麼多分享您當知道我想要請你們回去研議的就是下一頁現在公務人員的各式價別有這麼多當然市價、病價、婚價、產前價、商價、流產價、家庭照顧價包括女性的生理價"},{"start":7117.785,"end":7145.262,"text":"2013年我們也是一步一步去爭取到女性不要對我的流血來逼我上班我們經痛的時候那是愛被救護很痛苦所以生理假是一個進步的我們2013年上路了甚至2014年我們完成了配套的修法那next 生理假來 人事長下一頁曾經有立委提過我自己也會提案"},{"start":7146.178,"end":7146.559,"text":"市長,您覺得如何?"},{"start":7163.206,"end":7163.326,"text":"主席"},{"start":7184.413,"end":7192.862,"text":"我們可以清白鋼 有水鋼 還有火鋼 那個鋼我們會稍微去盤一下 看有 如果真的沒夠"},{"start":7195.932,"end":7214.703,"text":"還有生理及輸給的施展我覺得我們會用比較開放的方式來討論我希望你們趕快啟動研議我自己也會提案那我們用生理假的方式來"},{"start":7216.184,"end":7216.684,"text":"公務員服務法"},{"start":7246.824,"end":7272.213,"text":"這是不對的觀念不好意思我是拿了委員的提案但是我是分享這個案例是說也有委員思考到這件事所以我是很認真的我覺得心理健康台灣人都很必須的我們會關心你今天感冒了有沒有看醫生有沒有吃藥但是我們總是另於給身旁的人一個很正向的心理的關懷那心理價真的不是給大家另外一個價別"},{"start":7273.493,"end":7275.955,"text":"委員報告：心理上我們會跟專屬部來演出因為"},{"start":7299.89,"end":7299.93,"text":"主席"},{"start":7317.159,"end":7320.28,"text":"我希望我們都跟上蔡英文總統全民一起來促進心理健康這樣一個對的政策健康起來當然我也很期待我們國會也要健康起來"},{"start":7338.769,"end":7353.612,"text":"希望大家未來來備詢面對理性專業的立法委員大家心情是愉悅的也希望事要的質詢可以換得大家的一抹微笑好不好我持續為大家發聲一起加油謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝那我們接下來請林思明委員發言好謝謝主席人事長今天也先關心消防員的問題來我們看一下這個圖"},{"start":7368.446,"end":7372.37,"text":"全國消防機關原額統計及服務人口比"},{"start":7376.588,"end":7383.694,"text":"內政部消防署本身預算顏額512人,現有489人,預算缺額23人。臺北市政府預算缺額59人,新北市政府232人,桃園市136人,台中市118人,台南市224人,高雄市政府52人"},{"start":7404.972,"end":7409.674,"text":"普遍預算缺額超過很多服務人口比6都1比1300以上新北市政府1比1662台南市政府1比1581高雄市政府1比1756"},{"start":7435.265,"end":7444.808,"text":"我自己居住的新竹縣市新竹市是1比1467新竹縣市1比1366都超過非常的多這個服務比超過那麼多對照國外的國家我們鄰近的國家新加坡是1比925日本的東京是1比731"},{"start":7463.933,"end":7464.454,"text":"美國兩城市紐約1比519芝加哥1比547"},{"start":7472.833,"end":7499.971,"text":"所以我們看我們的消防人力的配置還有我們的服務人數一個消防員的服務的人數比都超過這個我們鄰近的不管新加坡還有日本東京那跟這個美國來比也是差距非常的大所以我們的消防員可以說是很辛苦的所以才會普遍造成說我們的消防人員工時超時工作的情形就很普遍所以我是想問那個那個人事長"},{"start":7504.234,"end":7528.793,"text":"針對這種人員編制我剛才是沒提到你原來的人這個編制的緣額現在跟你說預算緣額如果說是以實際的編制緣額來比較的話那差距更大了所以我想這種狀態對於這種消防人員或者對我們一般民眾來講這麼大的一個一個消防人員要面對服務的人口這麼大的一個狀態"},{"start":7530.794,"end":7549.631,"text":"這不是好事啦,大家都很辛苦的,所以這種情況之下,我們未來要如何的把這個我們消防人員的不管是我們的員額的一個增加,還有服務人口比如何來降低,總長這邊你們有沒有什麼樣的一個政策?"},{"start":7551.872,"end":7571.259,"text":"謝謝委員這個議題那首先我要說明一下消防人力不足的問題現在主要是集中在地方剛才那個 六都查很多 六都查很多而且有一個消防人員他的言語不受地方行政機關組織準則其實地方政協主要的原因就是"},{"start":7575.38,"end":7599.602,"text":"剋到的人不多他剋到考上了以後他要經過1到2年的訓練所以我們最近在協助消防署去從他南投那裡有一個消防訓練中心去增加他的訓練量能當他的訓練量能多的時候有更多的消防員可以去那裡訓練可以快速的彌補像最近這5年"},{"start":7600.703,"end":7621.037,"text":"他們我提供給地方政府的他的增援已經到3100位的他們的目標在117年的時候人均服務比大概會從1比1300降到1比1100那這個過程中現在的瓶頸在哪裡瓶頸就是他的訓練的期間等而靠進來的"},{"start":7625.78,"end":7647.044,"text":"上一年我們為了這個問題我們有去拜會幾個機關結果發現有一個問題考錄取率不是很理想所以為了這件事情我們也去協商考試院在考科方面各方面是不是可以有精進的地方因為你如果要訓練的量能不足就對了"},{"start":7651.445,"end":7654.366,"text":"所以我剛才跟委員報告的我們就是從兩個路徑來嘛第一個讓入企率"},{"start":7681.013,"end":7683.035,"text":"昨年我們的4等消防警察員員需求人數很多你知道嗎"},{"start":7708.001,"end":7713.763,"text":"955人人員需求報上來是955人錄取人數只有351人除除缺了604人去年為什麼錄取人數不足而錄取的比例會那麼大"},{"start":7739.605,"end":7742.547,"text":"專業科目平均沒有達到入企標準所以刷掉很多人"},{"start":7754.299,"end":7780.633,"text":"阿這個我們就是因為這件事情所以我們已經有去跟考選部反映這樣的情況因為他那個專業分數的門檻你沒過你就沒辦法錄處嘛這是第一關嘛你錄取了以後第二關就要到訓練中心嘛那訓練中心我們希望說還是每年都這樣因為這個專業科目考不過上一年這個問題比較嚴重是所以你未來你要怎麼跟考試員來溝通"},{"start":7783.683,"end":7784.424,"text":"公務員特種考試一般警察考試規則"},{"start":7801.064,"end":7807.109,"text":"113年考試院提報考試院主管機關審議納入未來在招訊部分持續擴大到1000名消防人員你如何跟考試院溝通?"},{"start":7825.353,"end":7828.555,"text":"專業科目一直卡在那邊因為考試很難講阿現在已經有跟考選部溝通過了大概有一個共識大概從考試端去處理專業科目的問題阿不然你都就是"},{"start":7846.815,"end":7847.115,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7869.086,"end":7874.247,"text":"考選部已經有同意我們的一個建議方向他們現在會去做這個方面的努力甚至我跟委員報告我們也有提出來今年是不是結構一次"},{"start":7890.771,"end":7892.312,"text":"市長我想這個部份真的要加油"},{"start":7917.327,"end":7921.851,"text":"現在關於資安的問題人事總署跟數位發展部合作辦理資安長的共事營各級政府單位目前總共設立了幾位資安長我們各級政府單位都有資安長的設立"},{"start":7944.485,"end":7956.516,"text":"二級、三級機關每一個機關都會由副首長或主任秘書擔任治安長所以副首長跟主秘?主秘跟副首長他們有沒有治安的專才?"},{"start":7966.969,"end":7982.592,"text":"委員你這個問題說真的那是沒什麼可能大家都有治安的專才可是他就是他有一個專責的副首長他去主責整個機關的一個治安業務啦"},{"start":7983.837,"end":8013.126,"text":"他本身就沒有具有資訊或資安的專業可是他的同仁有資安專業啊要怎麼領導他底下一定會有資安專業的同仁去協助他所以要了解他本身不具有我現在要請教你這個問題我們一直好奇奇怪啊 資安長不管怎麼樣也要有對資安是有一定的專業你現在就內部由我們的副首長祖密來兼任"},{"start":8014.454,"end":8015.074,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8034.622,"end":8058.037,"text":"我跟委員報告最近政府有培養很多資安長可是都被民間尤其金融單位還有高科技公司都挖走挖走去當他們的資安長所以我們現在就希望說既然他的名稱叫資安長他本身對於我們的資訊安全這部分他要有一定相關的專業知識否則你這個外行領導內行這是要怎麼領導"},{"start":8063.477,"end":8088.782,"text":"這問題是不是要改革?我答應委員我會把這個信息跟數位部來傳達因為資安現在資安最重要現在資安是我們現在政府單位最重要的一個職責現在網路攻擊無所不能無所不在所以我們政府的重要資料如何來加以保護這部分要加強了謝謝"},{"start":8094.365,"end":8094.645,"text":"吳宗憲委員發言"},{"start":8121.22,"end":8134.697,"text":"人事長我這邊有先延續早上謝鴻介委員還有星期一我們傅坤祺總召他所提到的有關檢察官助理的部分"},{"start":8135.78,"end":8155.356,"text":"其實我們現在對這個部分我們有一個疑問就是說因為檢查事務官的員額沒有補滿我想應該是這樣嗎?沒有錯嗎?就剛剛那個謝鴻介委員他也有提到這個員額這麼多沒有補滿你們有沒有去弄清楚原因是什麼?"},{"start":8156.857,"end":8183.351,"text":"因為他每一年他的容訓量因為場地的問題那後來這件事情我們有跟法務部反映是不是可以改變找另外一個場地比較大的就是訓練量能大一點因為檢視官他的訓練要9個月你原來的那一個訓練的場地大概90個人我覺得他我們現在還有169位的檢視官還沒有補齊"},{"start":8187.502,"end":8191.025,"text":"這個投影片其實現在檢察官的工作量太重我想那個人事長應該知道嘛 對不對"},{"start":8210.362,"end":8227.458,"text":"因為我自己在這個工作擔任檢察官20年我很清楚問題是出在什麼地方除了剛剛所說的檢察事務官的缺額這麼多是因為訓練的問題之外你們有沒有想過他的離職率也很高你們想過這個問題"},{"start":8230.475,"end":8251.827,"text":"你有沒有去研究過原因或是你去詢問法務部原因是什麼好吧那我在這邊我簡單的說啦早上謝榮介委員他有提到一個月八萬多的薪水為什麼還缺額這麼多那我想跟你們說一下就是現行制度對於檢查事務官而言是一點尊嚴都沒有"},{"start":8254.075,"end":8260.2,"text":"一個月領4萬跟一個月領8萬房子一樣都買不起啦而且現在人現在那個退休制度"},{"start":8261.465,"end":8282.531,"text":"你說這樣的薪水對他們誘因會很高其實不容易因為檢視官很難考他們很多都同時都有律師資格他們在外面人家聘他都是高薪你怎麼留得住這些人你們有沒有想過除了他八萬多的月薪之外你們有沒有讓制度上面能夠讓他更有尊嚴"},{"start":8284.774,"end":8301.807,"text":"你們知不知道現在的檢視官其實他的升遷是有問題的雖然制度上面我們有設置主任檢察事務官有設置檢認缺但是據我所知到目前為止都還沒有人升任到這個位置"},{"start":8302.868,"end":8329.035,"text":"那檢視官的這個制度應該有20年了吧我印象中應該有那20年之下為什麼還是這樣做那你們有沒有去跟法務部去溝通是不是制度上面發生了什麼問題讓我們留不住檢查事務官我想這個很重要把這應該跟跟貴處也有一點關聯性嗎對那這個你們有沒有去研究過"},{"start":8330.779,"end":8332.1,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8346.502,"end":8346.782,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8371.52,"end":8386.093,"text":"這兩個東西不是說對錯啦但是你們要不要先去釐清這個問題啊檢視官為什麼缺額這麼高先把問題把它解決嘛那像日本他有一個制度譬如說副檢察官的制度"},{"start":8387.194,"end":8409.723,"text":"那讓檢察事務官他有機會是不是有一個可能性將來轉任副檢察官像現在是有檢察事務官他在有律師資格之後他是有可能轉任檢察官那但是這樣子是不是我們可以另外一個制度將來我們朝向修法去模仿日本的這個制度方向去思考你要讓檢事官有這個升遷"},{"start":8411.724,"end":8431.429,"text":"在人事上面有這個升遷的誘因在那裡你才有辦法留住他不然這些人時間到了他們幾乎也都考得上律師的他就出去外面高薪別人騙走人力就不見這些最強悍的戰力就都走光這個部分我想說"},{"start":8433.035,"end":8448.853,"text":"麻煩你們思考一下因為主任檢察事務官他有的是檢認缺目前的設置又沒有一個年限會不會有可能會造成像關戶人那樣子"},{"start":8449.834,"end":8449.914,"text":"主席"},{"start":8466.783,"end":8467.063,"text":"副檢察官"},{"start":8479.795,"end":8480.375,"text":"委員提出的"},{"start":8507.004,"end":8527.948,"text":"徵典我覺得非常棒,我們會跟法務部來討論看看,有兩個議題,一個就是檢察事務官他的流失率,到底他跑去是有歷史資格,他去做歷史,還是跑去做法官,那會有幾個路徑,先去了解原因,我們會去跟法務部"},{"start":8528.288,"end":8556.603,"text":"那至於說要偵測副檢察官的部分大概也陳副委員你提到的大概要做一些相關法律的一個修正這個幅度那麼大但是我覺得也是可以思考我們再跟法務部來討論看看就是麻煩你們多面向的思考不是說只有增加檢察官助理才能解決問題我跟你講以現行的制度這樣走下去你再多增加幾倍都沒有用"},{"start":8557.623,"end":8557.763,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8580.293,"end":8582.555,"text":"有關這次勞動節放假的部分我想說外面勞工的部分也反彈蠻大的"},{"start":8606.465,"end":8610.897,"text":"有關這個部分你們在評估的過程中有遇到哪些爭議或阻礙?"},{"start":8612.537,"end":8641.629,"text":"我跟委員報告齁因為他的源頭會在內政部所主管的紀念日期節日辦法裡面要去啊要去解開這樣源頭壓啦啊那內政部應該最近會找我們跟教育部還有國防部一帶來一起去開會然後會把每一個部會的意見大家會提一些正面的或者有一些疑慮的部分那內政部會中整會簽到行政院"},{"start":8642.129,"end":8667.323,"text":"那基本上我們會在那個場合把我們看到的我們的一些意見在那個場域來反映我想說昨天就是前兩天院長他確實好像是持一個比較贊同的態度嘛對對對那這個部分可能也要請你們嚴厲一下但是你們也不要忽略了這個從勞工方面來的我覺得那個是溝通啦"},{"start":8668.343,"end":8668.784,"text":"邀請行政院人事長"},{"start":8685.585,"end":8701.482,"text":"有一個狀況就是父母放假結果小孩子要去學校這個搭不上去也有一些現實上面造成很多父母的困擾這個再麻煩你們能夠增加溝通的能力多去跟這些勞工團體溝通一下"},{"start":8703.023,"end":8731.296,"text":"當然院長這樣子我覺得也是蠻認同這次院長的說法但是你們可能要再多努力一下最後我想跟你們提一個東西就是有關男女比例在公務員體系裡面目前公務員的男女比例他大概是男生是60.86%女生是39.14%但是到檢任官的時候"},{"start":8734.649,"end":8756.854,"text":"檢任官的時候差距變大了男生檢任官的人數遠高於女性檢任官這一塊是不是也要麻煩人事長能夠多了解一下這個狀況或是將來有沒有辦法去改善讓這個比例能夠拉近或是看你有什麼高見"},{"start":8759.609,"end":8769.657,"text":"我我我這裡提供一個數據資料給委員參考吼那在111年的時候啊代表性係數你信大概就是0.85那112年的時候是0.86那事實上"},{"start":8775.634,"end":8804.894,"text":"這個一個檢任官的一個演化事實上是以前男性的公務員比較多那像我了解的像我們人總啦還有主計總處還有國稅局大概七成都是女性同仁所以他裡面的檢任的比例就不一樣所以有時候就會因為機關的性質有些是工程單位工程單位還是以女男性為主所以他的檢任會比較多可是現在我們在觀察考上的女性的同仁會比較多"},{"start":8804.974,"end":8805.394,"text":"總人數兩個的比例跟"},{"start":8835.523,"end":8844.53,"text":"總人數的時候的男女比例跟檢任官的時候男女的比例還是有一個落差那我想說我們還是要落實這個男女平權好 謝謝人事長謝謝"},{"start":8861.54,"end":8863.881,"text":"副坤祺委員發言人事總書司法及法制委員會"},{"start":8883.59,"end":8904.287,"text":"今天兩天我非常敬佩,時間可以開始走了。前兩天看到人事長跟您一起溝通,心裡非常開心。我不曉得人事長還是我們花蓮通。"},{"start":8906.671,"end":8933.312,"text":"在秀林鄉大同大理部落這兩個部落是無水無電所以要上山至少要五六個小時體力不好要走七八個小時結果人事長去過四趟我們在這裡真的要代表花蓮來表揚一下人事長因為沒有光害看到天上的星星幾乎手上可以把它摘下來真的是非常漂亮"},{"start":8936.037,"end":8950.176,"text":"花蓮很多的秘境你都去過我覺得人事長可以在公務人員在國民旅遊的時候可以多推薦一下花蓮有很多景點你都去過"},{"start":8951.647,"end":8952.127,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8977.299,"end":8980.001,"text":"我希望說人事長可以帶著大家好有空都要多到美麗而且人間淨土的花蓮多來走走"},{"start":9006.621,"end":9033.426,"text":"另外就是本集看了這個人事長的相關的資料也是算臺灣第二代的民共38年以後第二代的我們的菁英所以我要特別跟人事長來討論分享一下臺灣這75年來所有的這些不管是經濟奇蹟也好這前面的60年經濟奇蹟亞洲的小龍等等龍頭等等"},{"start":9035.663,"end":9057.653,"text":"都是台灣第一代的這些精英把它創造出來的而第一代的精英那個時候我記得我還是在讀小學中學的時候啊甚至讀高中的時候那個時候台灣第一流的人才啊第一流的人才都願意啊到政府部門來工作"},{"start":9058.857,"end":9083.669,"text":"那時候大家講叫鐵飯碗嘛最安全也不會有任何的挑戰而且這些所謂書生型的人都很喜歡到國家的政府來工作那個時候我記得大家要嫁那女孩子要嫁 嫁公務員最好最安全那個時候還是4個剛剛好生小孩要生4個"},{"start":9085.785,"end":9114.341,"text":"那個年代在軍公教的家庭裡是很有光榮感的所以當一流的人才都進政府的時候這個國家一定會很強大而且能夠迅速的來發展所以對於這個所謂的年改讓這些人讓我們的中央政府竟然背棄信賴保護原則這是聯合國的兩公約這最基本的信賴保護原則"},{"start":9115.518,"end":9142.868,"text":"然後呢造成這麼多人啊這個當他的一生青春都付給國家以後啊為人民做完事情啊到了60幾歲啊現在啊這過得很這個叫沒有辦法過那種上流中流的生活甚至啊惶惶不可終日啊而且物價又高漲所以對年改這個事情這個人事長請教一下你覺得這個正當性足不足"},{"start":9144.725,"end":9164.988,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上整個年改一個過程他有思考到世代公平的問題因為也要考慮到年輕世代他未來如果是在公部門服務那這些貸付基金是不是以國家的財政他的投資報酬率好幾個面向是不是所以"},{"start":9165.569,"end":9193.977,"text":"政府做這樣一個決定事實上也是有考慮到這個基金的一個永續那個是不得不的一個做法我想很多事情大概大家都要有一種包容我想人事長你很客氣啦但是本席還是要強調年改這個立法我們一定會修第一個國家不能對人民有私信"},{"start":9195.68,"end":9222.922,"text":"你可以考慮到基金的問題可以在某年某月某日定定以後用心智你要來當公務員你要想清楚用心智來走就職的部分政府必須要維護這些人跟政府的契約這最基本國家的誠信沒有國家的誠信就沒有其他的這個社會的價值跟穩定這個社會存在就是一個信任"},{"start":9224.228,"end":9252.873,"text":"國家之所以能夠領導也就是人民的信任所以當國家的信任崩潰的時候沒有信賴基礎的時候這個社會啊秩序會蕩然無存這個部分我想人事長未來我們在修法的時候啊也請您人事總統不要過多的抗拒那另外就是基金的部分啊你們應該跟考試院去協商啊為什麼有些基金他做得很好有些基金他又做得不行"},{"start":9253.988,"end":9283.02,"text":"但是永遠政府的基金它的效能跟民間的基金又差很多落差又很大民間在賺錢政府的基金在賠錢當然政府的基金如果一天到晚都是政治任務在護盤的話永遠它屬於被犧牲的而它被犧牲的原因竟然是拿這些退休公務人員的退休準備金去做國家任務"},{"start":9284.591,"end":9311.701,"text":"這是很荒唐的一件事情非常荒唐的一件事情政府操作不良然後要規則於讓你們沒有辦法安養終老這是完全風馬牛不相及另外就是現在我們尤其在偏遠地區對於整個社區安全對大家生活能夠照應"},{"start":9313.663,"end":9343.149,"text":"在這個消防人員消防人員能不能組工會的這個問題有沒有協商權的這個問題我想在這個會期或是今年一定會提出相關的這些辦法也請啊這個人事長針對本期今天提出的這個質詢的部分能夠給我一些回應用書面也可以沒有關係我先講一下當然歐美國家的消防員都有組工會"},{"start":9346.16,"end":9361.002,"text":"美國、加拿大、法國、五眼聯盟等等但重點就是說現在連韓國也有它固然沒有罷工權但是可以協商日本不能組工會但是它的協會也有協商權"},{"start":9363.062,"end":9363.982,"text":"在全國這麼多縣市裡面"},{"start":9388.151,"end":9388.451,"text":"邀請行政院人事長"},{"start":9413.021,"end":9441.097,"text":"對於限職的這些公務人員的調薪在去年在去年6月1號行政院宣布調漲這個軍公教人員薪水4%當然是隨著消費者物價指數累積成長成長率達到增幅5%應該予以調整而且4年監討一次但是為什麼退休人員要拖到今年的2月29號"},{"start":9442.322,"end":9459.671,"text":"前後差了9個多月這對退休人員情何以堪他們已經被砍得這麼慘了然後在討論的時候又要延宕我覺得這個步調應該是一致的本身認為這應該是一致的而且必須要用它法制化"},{"start":9461.34,"end":9462.141,"text":"我們請下一位"},{"start":9486.013,"end":9499.356,"text":"我們臨時提案時間到了我們現在處理臨時提案我們現在處理臨時提案臨時提案總共是兩案嗎?有兩案,但原本提出的第二案第二案測案就不予處理"},{"start":9513.325,"end":9513.465,"text":"請宣讀臨時提案"},{"start":9525.113,"end":9551.076,"text":"臨時提案一現行軍公教待遇分別有軍人待遇條例公務人員奉集法教師待遇條例等規定然而有關軍公教待遇制調整機制迄今尚無法律或法律明確授權之具體規範為健全軍公教員工待遇調整機制盡請行政院人事行政總處針對軍公教調新機制法制化進行嚴密並將規劃結果於兩個月內送交司法及法制委員會"},{"start":9551.917,"end":9556.096,"text":"提案委員．黃國昌﹑吳宗憲﹑傅坤祺﹑温小玲﹑林思明﹑羅志強﹑謝龍介"},{"start":9558.345,"end":9582.507,"text":"民事提案三 請人事行政總處一﹐評估檢討全國目前約聘僱人力分布及運用狀況﹐並於三個月內提出書面報告二﹐評估因應業務狀況﹐調整及時代改變﹐部分業務運用深層是人工智慧AI提升效能﹐可行性﹐並於三個月內提供書面報告提案委員﹐鍾嘉斌﹐莊瑞雄﹐黃國昌﹐宣讀完畢"},{"start":9583.968,"end":9607.829,"text":"好 謝謝那我們就臨時提案的第一案請提案委員補充說明謝謝主席我想軍公教薪資調整機制的法制化已經是長久以來應該要做而沒有做的事情那甚至在監察院裡面的調查報告都明確的指出來那本院"},{"start":9608.806,"end":9630.176,"text":"法制局的同仁非常的優秀,已做了好幾個調查報告,也都明確的點出這項缺失。他所造成的問題的層面其實還蠻多的,因為台灣已經進入了民主不法制的社會,如果公務員挑釁這件事情還是上頭說了就算,我相信也不是人事長決定,是比你更高的人。"},{"start":9631.357,"end":9646.48,"text":"在決定到底要不要調調多少基層的公務員教師也沒有代表在裡面我相信台灣做個法治國家這種涉及到人民基本權利重大給付行政的事情還是要有法律授權的依據"},{"start":9647.481,"end":9673.716,"text":"那為了利用提案的時間我特別感謝我們的昭緯吳宗憲還有中國公民黨黨團的總召傅坤祺以及翁曉琳、林思敏、羅志強還有謝榮介委員能夠對提案與一定的支持謝謝那我們請詢問機關有沒有意見要提出這裡是不是可以建請同意將規劃結果由兩個月改三個月"},{"start":9677.236,"end":9679.897,"text":"我今天質詢的時候我還沒有講之前的"},{"start":9705.598,"end":9716.933,"text":"人事長他2016年來這邊做業務報告的時候他的業務報告書裡面就有這一條我沒騙你你回去翻兩個月夠了啦 真的"},{"start":9719.773,"end":9744.127,"text":"主席還有那個民主黨黃總召其實我是覺得一般我們的書面提案一般都是三個月啦我提案後請提書面報告我的第二案也是這樣那我是覺得評估起來今年有國會改革這麼重大的案子應該研會的可能性很高啦看看黃總召是不是考慮如果三個月能夠提得更完整不妨考慮一下啦可以建議一下"},{"start":9745.407,"end":9771.241,"text":"沒有啦 那個 中委員我很尊敬你啦所以你剛所以你剛提案我也來簽啦雖然民進黨對外放話說台灣民眾黨的提案你們都不簽你剛拿來我還是就簽了因為我覺得提書面報告處理AI的問題這件事情有必要嘛我們向來就是論事那我也就是論事第一個雖然我認為研會的機會很高但"},{"start":9771.801,"end":9799.782,"text":"這是一個不確定的事情第二個我也講白的研會的目的也不是為了在等他的報告研會的目的是我們有更重要的事情要做啦所以我是不是可以建請總委員可以尊重提案委員跟這麼多委員一起連署就兩個月請他們把報告交出來這樣我稍微報告啦就是將規劃結果兩個月內提書面報告送交司法及法制委員會"},{"start":9801.936,"end":9819.124,"text":"提書面報告不好意思我剛沒有提到就是說其他共同提案人有沒有要還有問題要請好那兩個月沒有問題那就確定兩個月那就兩個月內要提書面報告"},{"start":9820.572,"end":9820.812,"text":"主席"},{"start":9836.881,"end":9837.382,"text":"補充說明"},{"start":9868.163,"end":9871.305,"text":"主席 各位委員 人事長 還有我們人事行政總處的各位官員 辛苦了"},{"start":9895.331,"end":9917.985,"text":"這個有關這個退休軍公教人員當然相關的這些條例都有規定這個達到怎麼樣的作用我們的主計總處的一些資料之後然後達到怎麼樣的一個條件都有規定嗎?倫市長都有規定當然這個本來"},{"start":9926.334,"end":9953.176,"text":"這個這條條文阿你們沒有好好的運用另外一這條同一條條文阿也有授權行政部門不一定要按照那個什麼前面的那個條件要不要念那個請同仁念一下條文好沒關係好那這個去年齁"},{"start":9954.73,"end":9981.471,"text":"去年1月行政院有宣布要配合調4%然後在我本席自己也在2月7號我也召開了這個協調會邀請了這個行政院人事行政總處前序部主計總處來召開這個協調會"},{"start":9985.236,"end":9985.576,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10009.648,"end":10024.421,"text":"這個行政院的包括其實包包包軍嘛公教軍公教軍公教警消嗎所以那次的宴會你們沒有去啊那次的宴會"},{"start":10026.572,"end":10051.177,"text":"這個考試院議員會通過了要調高4%那什麼時候可以發佈正式發佈大概我們現在雙方會選我們行政院部分已經把經跟教2月29號送考試院那考試院已經在3月1號把公務人員送過來大概應該3月上旬最慢的3月中旬就可以"},{"start":10051.817,"end":10052.697,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10069.405,"end":10069.425,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":10088.191,"end":10113.765,"text":"一法現在的法過去的新修的這些法例也都應該重新重新檢討因為這個軍公教錦囂他的相關的這些重要性我就不必再多說了這是一個部分另外就是我們"},{"start":10116.759,"end":10136.473,"text":"原住民主委員會負責原住民保留地業務的要謝謝人事長都已經同意他們的專業佳績地政的專業佳績那現在就是地方政府的部分因為不是只有中央原民會要負責這個業務這個還是要從鄉鎮對"},{"start":10142.048,"end":10171.534,"text":"我不是只有執行委員 地政家計也不是只有那個我說也不是只有中央的這個內政部的地政司包括縣政府的地政單位鄉鎮公所那原住民保留地也是一樣中央的延命會竟然已經賦予給這個地政專業家計所以這個縣政府的部分"},{"start":10173.438,"end":10195.573,"text":"這個部分有討論過目前進度怎麼樣我這裡跟委員報告一下大概地方政府他辦理原住民保留地的這一些同仁他也比照地政人員專業家籍表有表意調味表期已經確定了嗎確定了航班了嗎什麼時候航班的"},{"start":10197.509,"end":10201.811,"text":"沒有地方政府呢地方政府沒有報上"},{"start":10209.976,"end":10235.31,"text":"這個地方政府沒有報上來這件事情我們在我先找臺東縣政府去了解一下那委員臺東跟花蓮一起主要因為目前原住民本來的業務最多的就是臺東跟花蓮好不好所以這個部分要去積極的好沒問題不要說中央有啊這個地方沒有地方更辛苦啊好不好好啊就先這樣好謝謝"},{"start":10242.631,"end":10261.655,"text":"主席好 人事長好我想最低工資法去年三讀已經通過了中央主管機關要設最低工資審議會每年第三季召開會議最低工資可以參照消費者物價指數年增率來調整幅度"},{"start":10263.036,"end":10287.254,"text":"勞工及僱主議定的工資不可以低於最低工資違反者最重可處僱主或事業單位新台幣150萬元所以勞工最低工資審議制度已經正式法制化但是我發現我們的軍公教條新的法制化倡議多年一直都還是樓梯上徘徊"},{"start":10288.806,"end":10303.644,"text":"那軍公教部門的調薪就變成好像是政府恩賜恩賞一樣那每次調薪都要吵架一次那就分兩派一派就說為什麼憑什麼軍公教要調薪一派就說這政府的德政"},{"start":10304.69,"end":10328.103,"text":"可是事實上你就以最低工資法的這種那個審議的機制來看你隨著物價的調漲其實軍公教生活當然應該要受到這個所謂的按照經濟環境變化的一個保障阿那為什麼會變成是所謂的那個政府而且這已經討論非常多年所以在這邊能不能所以我們剛剛有臨時提案啦可是我也要問一下我們的人事長"},{"start":10329.204,"end":10355.137,"text":"你會告訴我們到底什麼時候可以法制化那不能說每次都是研議研議報告再報告那請問人事長你覺得什麼時候可以完成法制化今年可以完成嗎還是這個會期就能完成謝謝委員這個意見因為剛才臨時提案也要求我們兩個月要把書面報告提出來那這件事情我們會積極我問你什麼時候可以完成法制化你預估啦"},{"start":10356.367,"end":10369.32,"text":"這個要看大院審議的進度了你期待什麼時候完成法制化我們如果能夠有合理的法制化內容的話我相信這一屆的立法院一定會全力的來促成"},{"start":10369.997,"end":10391.448,"text":"因為我也不客氣的講我覺得過去立法院很多事情該推的改革該推的法案該推的一些修法事實上都沒有辦法照進入像這個就已經放了多少年的一個法案所以我希望說今天那個人事長你可以告訴我你覺得你們的期待是多久可以完成法治化"},{"start":10393.146,"end":10404.971,"text":"我當然可以在年底以前年底以前感謝希望您朝這個目標我們會行行政院送到立法院好那就希望我們的這是我們的那個人事總處能夠確保"},{"start":10408.072,"end":10425.41,"text":"不要在每年都是在炒要不要加薪今年開始就把法制化將來大家都可以按照規則來做那我想請教我們人事長的第二個問題是我不知道你有沒有關注前天管碧玲主委在內政委員會的備詢"},{"start":10427.708,"end":10453.864,"text":"沒有 管主委他發給簡訊給這個LINE的訊息給高精素美委員上面寫海巡極為辛苦原住民同仁所佔比例在原住民部落區域的單位所佔比例也不低尤其暗巡部隊部分我有特別要求要注意在升遷上的把佐"},{"start":10454.784,"end":10457.727,"text":"你認為管碧雲主委傳這樣的簡訊恰當嗎?報告委員因為沒有看到這個詳細的內容就比較我特別要求注意在升遷上的拔絕對原住民"},{"start":10470.882,"end":10491.813,"text":"一個首長傳訊息給立法委員原住民的立委還特別跟你講我會特別注意來去所謂的拔卓原住民的身簽你不覺得這句話有問題嗎他是不是要跟高級數目委員交換什麼的感覺因為高級數目委員正在要安排專案報告來質詢管碧玲"},{"start":10499.827,"end":10521.072,"text":"我要問那個人事長他為什麼要特別介入原住民的身分別來做身牽拔著的關注點這是一個正確人事拔著的一個角度嗎你做人事長做這麼久你會今天跟一個人拔著說我要決定拔著你因為你是男生 因為你是女生 因為你是原住民我會這樣說嗎"},{"start":10523.154,"end":10540.686,"text":"你會不會這樣說報告委員我不會這樣講可是管主委他的講話謝謝你你剛剛就講你不會這樣講因為這就不適合嘛事實上我先講按照人事行政總處的報告113年1月底我們各機關實際經用原住民人數是707人那海巡是"},{"start":10549.269,"end":10577.071,"text":"原住民現員771人 佔原額的6.4%然後警察機關佔7.5%國軍大概佔9.17%特種部隊更高 高達60%這是現在我們原住民在各機關的原額可是中華民國憲法第7條規範中華民國人民無分男女 種族 宗教 階級 黨派法律上一律平等"},{"start":10578.206,"end":10603.726,"text":"管主委的發言你不覺得也違反我們憲法上一律平等的精神嗎你覺得如果說是你講這句話你要不要向全國原住民跟高精素美委員道歉你是高精素美委員你是原住民你不覺得這句話有羞辱到原住民跟原住民委員嗎你會不會覺得你被羞辱到我要跟委員報告一下我跟你講高精素美委員就絕對被羞辱到"},{"start":10605.219,"end":10633.257,"text":"所以人事行政總處當然你管不了管必領可是我覺得在推廣這種所謂無歧視職業不分所謂的階級種族的無歧視的原則這個應該是人事行政總處你們要負責宣導的吧包括性平啊包括各種所謂的我們講人事上的你要排除一些所謂的歧視我希望能夠好好建立這樣一個文官的文化那接下來再請教我們的那個人事長"},{"start":10635.287,"end":10651.891,"text":"人事行政總處工作上有一個很重要的就是厚實公務人力整體待遇制度提升軍公教員工待遇合理性然後要來增加整體的競爭力那我想請問教師是不是屬於犯公務體系的一份子是不是教師本來就是謝謝那能不能請人事長幫幫老師們"},{"start":10664.233,"end":10689.915,"text":"108課綱上路初期就有很多教育產業工會也來找過我呼籲要增置高中教師員額以符合108課綱素養教學跟多元選修課程的教學需要因為我們108課綱其實因為要所謂追求多元還有包括素養教學其實賦予老師更多的一些負擔沒錯吧 對不對"},{"start":10690.896,"end":10691.036,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10720.896,"end":10730.9,"text":"可是如果你今天有這個空有這個目標你沒有相應的提升員額讓老師能夠有更大的精力專注在這些事情上那是不是適得其反?是不是適得其反?"},{"start":10734.401,"end":10753.259,"text":"這一個部分我的了解教育部都有在適當的給予研究當然教育部為主可是我希望我們人事行政總處能夠去提點一下提點一下就是說事實上你可以看到就是說我們現在因為這個問題我們現在的做法是全部推給代課老師"},{"start":10754.537,"end":10781.603,"text":"可是上大賽老師跟那個原額就正聘的原額的教師還是不一樣的所以基本上你要增加更多的所謂教學目標給老師你就要給他更能夠符合的裝備跟資源不能說一直在增加老師希望他負擔更多更多但是你是某種程度你沒有配相對配置合適的所謂資源的時候你反而是降低老師在每一個"},{"start":10782.763,"end":10799.835,"text":"領域上他的所能夠達到的品質那另外還有就是說我們剛剛都在講所謂物價的部分我們已經決定要調漲這個軍工教就是那個薪資百分之四嘛四個百分點可是調薪範圍有沒有南瓜教師終點費教師終點費他是屬於"},{"start":10807.594,"end":10810.796,"text":"我直接跟你講我們教室沒有設加班費現行課都輔導跟重修補修是以420元到550元為基準可是事實上這樣的他有做一點調整但是對下限做調整他沒有對上限做調整"},{"start":10828.044,"end":10840.814,"text":"那也有很多的教學的一個現場的工作人員跟我們反應就是說事實上很多他本來就是定上限啦在知己的所以調整下限不調上限實際的結果跟沒調整一樣沒錯吧"},{"start":10843.035,"end":10866.072,"text":"因為大家很多都調整上限還有一點就是他們的要求希望就是既然終點有些是加班的終點的話應該按照勞工的加班費的計算基準來去評估甚至也是某種程度法制化按照物價來去調不要又是N幾式的去所謂的專案調整所謂的那個終點費這個也希望我們人事總處這邊能夠想辦法協調教育部一起來推動感謝您"},{"start":10874.066,"end":10876.3,"text":"謝謝各位那我們現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":11184.548,"end":11211.468,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會那接下來是請楊瓊英委員發言楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員好那接下來我們請鄭正前委員發言鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員好那接下來我們請謝一鳳委員發言謝謝主席"},{"start":11213.291,"end":11227.561,"text":"我想要請我們人事長 人事長你怎麼不講話 怎樣你怎麼發呆你知道說那個大家都在點價 你覺得你續願的機會大不大我不會去廟寶寶我不知道 要去廟裡寶寶才有可能會知道"},{"start":11237.366,"end":11241.889,"text":"現在最熱大家今天都在討論就是勞動節要不要放假是不是這是你主責的嗎"},{"start":11259.161,"end":11274.651,"text":"跟委員報告還有跟內政部嘛內政部是負責紀念日期節日方法他那個遊戲規則他那裡改他要改了以後我們去我剩下游啦他要上游不過內政部"},{"start":11275.672,"end":11302.718,"text":"假如要去啟動五一勞動節金公交要放假的時候他會找國防部教育部跟我們一起去開會然後開完以後看大家的討論因為裡面有牽涉到404萬的學生66萬的公教同仁這樣假如那一天放假會有哪些的一個impact然後內政部會把這個牽到行政院到時候看行政院怎麼合適"},{"start":11305.734,"end":11331.479,"text":"你也知道除了勞動節其實大家也有在討論過去去年度也在討論行限紀念日就是12月25號到不了放假那你坐這個位子也很久了是不是那到底哪一個還是快點去擲筊吧然後到底哪一天放假"},{"start":11333.015,"end":11360.88,"text":"對於整個你也知道不管是行政機關也好相關的就是說你你也知道去年的那個年假太長嗎你也是被罵的很慘嗎是不是也惹出很多的那個大家到底你在評估這個時候到底是五一勞動節放假比較好還是行限節日其實國定假日不可能無限期的增加下去嗎是不是"},{"start":11362,"end":11378.866,"text":"在這個情況下雖然說現在才剛在討論五一勞動節但是可能12月25號大家就開始討論那個行限紀念日以及行限紀念日剛好是恰巧就是外國的耶誕節"},{"start":11379.986,"end":11398.17,"text":"那對於國家整體的經濟效益而言也許在這個時間放假好像有相關的產業以及商機那就你而言你當然是就公務員的所以就你而言這兩個放假有什麼差別"},{"start":11399.491,"end":11427.041,"text":"委員報告一下齁因為大宴在民國89年的時候有一個附帶結議就是每一年的放假天數大概就為此115到116那事實上也就是因為有這樣的一個附帶結議所以這個也就是內政部他要去針對這樣的一個limitation去討論看看要如何去調整有些節日只有紀念不放假那些是要又紀念又放假"},{"start":11427.661,"end":11453.781,"text":"會在那個會議裡面來討論事實上我們還是尊重整個內政部他全盤的不是我現在不是在問內政部我是說從你過去擔任人事長的這樣的經驗你認為對不對我就說啦現在大家在討論五一有可能就是行政見證日的時候大家也開始討論了12月25號要不要變成國定假日那如果這個時候呢"},{"start":11455.262,"end":11463.054,"text":"你怎麼樣評估呢?你怎麼樣在跨部會議當中提供給行政院長相關的資訊?"},{"start":11465.327,"end":11491.197,"text":"現在我們就是一定是要去去recheck看看這個是有沒有法律規範的遊戲規則上限嘛我剛才有報告過了嘛假如因為大宴在89年的時候我知道這個你已經重複過了因為這個很重要因為當五一也放了然後在行驗期日就再放當然會超過這樣的上限怎麼樣取捨嗎現在就是取捨的問題"},{"start":11495.177,"end":11518.612,"text":"沒有錯這個就是所謂的移動的概念本來是沒放假的移到有放假有放假的你就要去找有放假的移到只紀念不放假會有這移動的那這個就會在那一個會議裡面大家一起去交換意見因為一定是要去試算哪一種假放了以後他哪些Stakeholder他的一個衝擊"},{"start":11519.773,"end":11541.742,"text":"一定會有些人獲得相對好的你不要把你內心的OS告訴大家你應該告訴我們說什麼樣的情況是最好的就是遵守法律規定是最好我當然是說遵守法律規定的情況下那如果只能二者一哪一個是比較好的"},{"start":11543.686,"end":11559.545,"text":"我會建議大家共識度最高的就是最好的因為我覺得民主時代不能你認為想怎樣就怎樣我覺得要聽大家大部分的人都有共識朝這個方向一定是風險最低"},{"start":11561.306,"end":11585.033,"text":"我看到最近大家也在討論檢察官助理的問題其實上會期我也是強力的認為以目前的詐騙案以及相關的案件審理的時候我們應該要增加檢察官助理的員額其實上會期的時候大家有對於檢察官的助理員額法定的"},{"start":11588.859,"end":11596.115,"text":"施法院的法官助理也會相對的要求,那兩個元額是否會有相關的影響呢?"},{"start":11598.292,"end":11622.737,"text":"我覺得我們增加檢察官助理的主要目的如果是要去處理詐騙案件我覺得最佳的方式是源頭減量當源頭不減量的時候我們再增加太多的檢察官助理事實上整個地檢他們不管是檢察官也好或者檢察事務官或者這些檢察官助理大家都很忙"},{"start":11623.86,"end":11637.435,"text":"最佳的方式就是源頭減量源頭減量然後再把一些檢察官目前要做的事情去做一些梳理哪些可以透過跟警察機關合作的還有一些訴訟有些"},{"start":11642.728,"end":11648.051,"text":"施法院的法官助理跟檢察官助理的緣額會不會有衝突兩邊基本上他沒有衝突可是會有一個現象就會援引比照的概念"},{"start":11666.271,"end":11669.512,"text":"那對於公務人員的總額會不會有影響呢?一定會有影響,因為他是在總研會那會互相排擠嗎?"},{"start":11694.984,"end":11721.429,"text":"因為我跟委員報告一下第3類跟第4類他離上限大概都剩下大概400個人左右那如果檢察官你檢察官助理如果在法制化以後因為他會佔到我的總顏額他剩下的空間就非常不夠假如一下子又舉一個例子假如檢察官助理會增加1000個人那他在第4類的的這個顏額我就破表"},{"start":11722.21,"end":11722.25,"text":"接下來"},{"start":11734.757,"end":11737.858,"text":"張家俊委員何新淳委員游皓委員"},{"start":11759.105,"end":11772.158,"text":"徐欣盈委員發言徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員蔡易瑜委員發言蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員"},{"start":11776.906,"end":11792.115,"text":"好那今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或書面答覆的那我們請機關這邊能夠盡速交給個別委員還有本會"},{"start":11797.042,"end":11813.165,"text":"那委員翁曉琳還有楊瓊英所提的書面質詢我們均列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆好那本次會議就到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"15697","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15697","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d370e55bcfbb05b216adffd4dccc8d5f93be8d109af184be4ce812047313ca4bf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-06","start_time":"2024-03-06T08:30:35+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-06T11:36:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":11125,"委員發言時間":"08:30:35 - 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選舉本院第11屆第1會期本會召集委員案一 推舉發票員 唱票員 計票員及監票員決定秦城委員冠廷擔任發票員及監票員徐委員小新擔任計票員及唱票員二 選舉結果"},{"start":2040.236,"end":2041.557,"text":"請問在場委員對於上次會議一書有沒有遺漏錯誤要更正的地方"},{"start":2068.735,"end":2079.299,"text":"沒有的話我們一速確定請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告業務概況．並備質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":2086.767,"end":2112.778,"text":"我們先來介紹在場的委員我們今天在場委員相當踴躍我們的名單第一個我們陳永康委員黃仁委員然後再來是林益君委員林楚英委員沈伯陽委員"},{"start":2115.382,"end":2144.216,"text":"羅梅林委員：洪森漢委員各位委員會掌聲鼓勵的只有退伏會其他部會不會接下來我們介紹今天我們與會的退伏會的官員第一位我們歡迎主任委員馮世寬馮主委我們這一趴通常不會鼓掌副主委李文忠"},{"start":2146.502,"end":2158.812,"text":"副主委 傅政成副主委 吳志洋再來是主秘 簡世峰綜合規劃處處長 栗以剛服務照顧處處長 曹東發救養養護處處長 周星國就學就業處處長 池玉蘭"},{"start":2176.743,"end":2204.517,"text":"舊醫保健處處長張仁義事業管理處處長楊長正退除己父處處長羅馬可行政管理處處長詹光宇人事處處長吳延均政風處處長王文信會計處處長蔡靜滿"},{"start":2208.729,"end":2214.23,"text":"統計資訊處處長張志強法規會執行秘書陳靜茹另外列席的議員有臺北榮總院長陳維銘陳院長好再來是臺中榮總陳世安院長高雄榮民總醫院院長陳金順"},{"start":2236.174,"end":2255.509,"text":"陳院長請坐平東榮總院長吳東玲吳院長吳院長是第一次到我們這裡來嗎沒有第二次了請坐再來是臺中榮總埔里分院徐衛慈徐院長另外我們榮民農卷基金會秘書長李世國"},{"start":2258.809,"end":2271.813,"text":"另外剛才我有看到陳冠廷委員也到場我們補充介紹接下來本日會議議程邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會報告業務概況．並備質詢請馮主委上台報告"},{"start":2290.592,"end":2319.442,"text":"恭喜所有新當選的委員立我們推普會來聽取我們年度的這個工作的報告首先呢要對大院歷屆委員先進多年來對本會的指導支持警戒崇高的敬意與謝誠回顧過去四年多的期間在新冠"},{"start":2320.452,"end":2320.732,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2349.327,"end":2362.371,"text":"跟營造溫馨、祥和、有尊嚴、 營養友善的環境同時建構互利共融社會的循環以下就業務的現況跟未來的重點則要報告如後業務執行的狀況一"},{"start":2370.731,"end":2390.49,"text":"引造友善的環境共享長照的資源在去年16所榮家經聆聘衛福部老人福利機構評鑑委員評鑑結果均達甲等以上而推動開放共榮社會化除配合政府"},{"start":2391.553,"end":2407.08,"text":"托育的政策推動在高雄馬蘭及花蓮三所容家設置了非營利的幼兒園之外16個容家結合家區的特色及人文景觀規劃參訪的路線邀請學童社團及機構進入容區參觀與辦理活動"},{"start":2417.286,"end":2438.259,"text":"這個副表請參閱中間沒有寫的是我們每年都選擇一個榮家做升旗典禮譬如我們已經在中章、岡山還有高雄今年是在台南榮家請看次頁"},{"start":2439.844,"end":2458.913,"text":"我們執行站起來走出去的方案安排新進的同仁及替代役的役籃走入榮家建起照顧失能長者生活起居陪伴他們在家區散步聊天及參與文康活動"},{"start":2460.174,"end":2476.195,"text":"藉由身體力行增進對高齡長者同理心了解照顧實況以期未來政策規劃符合榮家及長者的實際需求我們在去年一年的時間我們"},{"start":2478.362,"end":2506.189,"text":"有553位學員跟新進的人員去參觀學習第4結合民間的資源提供合作的場域我們3年來累積了赴世界華人工商婦女企業管理協會張榮發基金會及保家公益基金會的捐贈電動護理床沐浴機富康巴士"},{"start":2507.386,"end":2519.529,"text":"提供重攤私人住民．更優質的照護品質．並且減輕了服務人員工作負荷．及降低職業傷害的風險．第5這個速發部已審查通過．榮譽國民之家．無線網路的設置經費有5200多萬元．我們將在明年建制完成．"},{"start":2537.046,"end":2555.381,"text":"農家全面配置生命體徵的自動上傳的照護系統,監護著名生命真相及血壓。去年並構置電動護理床有一千多床,降低臥床著名的壓窗發生率。"},{"start":2558.035,"end":2571.681,"text":"第7,自106年2月開放民眾入住農家﹐至今﹐戰床率已經有1355床﹐有總數的15.44%﹐並且在板橋、桃園、彰化、高雄、花蓮等5所農家復設日照中心﹐"},{"start":2584.242,"end":2609.735,"text":"來照顧我們平常沒有辦法被照顧的老人而且我們運用這個照顧的經驗推動輕盈共居鼓勵青年以服務的時數換住宿的方式入住農家同時促進輕盈世代共同的榮樂讓長輩感受如同家庭一般的溫暖去年既有9位青年申請"},{"start":2611.355,"end":2624.026,"text":"並且有服務的時數有2000多小時,住民接受服務有700餘人次。第二,增進農民醫療的效能,提供智慧的照顧。"},{"start":2625.816,"end":2649.546,"text":"我們在臺北、臺中及高雄三個榮總獲國家醫療品質智慧醫院的全機構標章其中臺中榮總三度通過這個智慧醫院全機構獎臺北及臺中榮總獲得美國Newsweek雜誌評選2024年全球最佳智慧醫院"},{"start":2650.786,"end":2668.677,"text":"臺北臺中高雄及屏東榮總分別開發預判新衰竭急性腎損傷預測的系統嚴重敗血症人工智慧的辨識系統及建置智慧整合平台等"},{"start":2670.29,"end":2697.228,"text":"帶領各榮總分院與榮家發展智慧照護重要的成果如下表比如說臺北總院有預判腥衰竭臺中有急性腎損傷的預測系統高雄總醫院有嚴重敗血性病人人工智慧辨識的警示系統屏東總治院建置全院檢查智慧整合的平台等"},{"start":2699.807,"end":2705.413,"text":"我們各級榮業共設置了一萬兩千多醫療床共門診"},{"start":2707.861,"end":2712.664,"text":"據統計的876萬餘人次 急診40餘人次 住院316萬餘人次的醫療112年設立屏東榮總 累計服務的門診已經有23萬餘人去年9月 民洋國際科技廠房的大火"},{"start":2730.492,"end":2758.559,"text":"我們屏東榮民總醫院．分擔了緊急醫療的人力．帶給屏東鄉親．更優質的醫療服務．也增加我們地區鄉親的信心第三．各級榮運發展先端．精準健康的照護．提升治療的效能臺北榮民總醫院．重力指癌症治療中心．自去年5月15日起重．"},{"start":2759.929,"end":2784.836,"text":"截至今年2月已經完成160例的治療是推動榮總榮家急診遠距醫療品質的提升計劃提供榮家住民遠距會診與醫療諮詢服務減少榮家的住民外送就醫截至去年12月底我們"},{"start":2788.159,"end":2798.051,"text":"總計服務2000餘人次其中有1000餘人次被建議續留榮家觀察減少轉送醫院比率達50%以上臺中總統構置了"},{"start":2802.176,"end":2808.884,"text":"建構了全國最大規模的遠距醫療中心提供24小時的這個上線問診會診提早檢商協助偏鄉的醫療等都請委員參考其次"},{"start":2820.199,"end":2845.124,"text":"我們高雄榮總開發遠距智慧醫療新電圖的系統稱之為定心部推廣至高雄、岡山、白河等三所榮家僅需在住民身上貼補定心部接上電極貼片即可進行檢查確認是否為急性心肌梗塞"},{"start":2846.347,"end":2872.718,"text":"幫助醫療人員迅速做出判斷及時處置與治療預計3到5年之內完整16所農家的建置請翻頁各界農家去年購置政治電腦斷層影像及MRI的實照影像等各1000萬以上的尖端設備儀器"},{"start":2874.437,"end":2894.11,"text":"其中用重粒子還有這個新的建築物我們請看這個副表如高雄醫療的健康照護大樓臺北榮總的手術室的興建等請參考第三是榮民英靈永享濟世"},{"start":2896.249,"end":2904.919,"text":"這單身農民亡故以後所所的服務安養機構辦理善後並由各機構的首長主持公祭"},{"start":2906.007,"end":2906.027,"text":"請參考："},{"start":2936.516,"end":2963.562,"text":"第二鏈結地方政府慈善團體協力辦理單身亡故榮民這個木座的起絕遷移因為這些木座都無人祭祀與損毀我們一共至去年辦理了2278座這個把它安坐在軍人中林池擁享國家的祭祀"},{"start":2967.551,"end":2974.597,"text":"編寫的數量表請各位看15頁所列第3緬懷政府"},{"start":2977.874,"end":3003.168,"text":"這個免懷隨政府來臺的榮民奠定國家安全及經濟發展基礎的功勳我們向古臨頭及八二三戰役中英勇犧牲的先烈致敬於去年1月16、8月23假臺北榮家舉行政府來臺歷年亡故榮民的起見中風三十紀念召見法會"},{"start":3004.449,"end":3021.738,"text":"以及對於中原普渡我們對於這個操建的道場以及向榮民們能夠祝福他們回歸故土同時也祈願所有榮家住民長輩平安健康"},{"start":3023.342,"end":3039.071,"text":"第4照顧移族彰顯官兵犧牲奉獻的精神為落實政府照顧官兵及其移族政策於112年將服役期間因戰功運命"},{"start":3040.091,"end":3055.6,"text":"官兵之遺族列為優先照顧對象應配合兵役法第44條條文的修正將服役10年以上亡故官兵的遺族比照容明卷列入"},{"start":3056.556,"end":3058.938,"text":"主動為經濟弱勢的農民辦理危險的"},{"start":3084.427,"end":3105.571,"text":"保險禮賠均最高達30萬元自去年3月起投保對象及家庭遇到特殊狀況如獨自扶育、扶養18歲以下子女或家庭發生重大變故的他們獲得的照顧由納保的6138人中間"},{"start":3108.852,"end":3113.643,"text":"有8人已經辦理了維保金額的核發"},{"start":3115.666,"end":3142.905,"text":"基於崇高暴薰的理念,我們對您退休奉瞻養金及生活補助費的人員或其眷屬住宅自用的水電優待辦法,自去年7月起特別將義務役因公至身心障礙致您瞻養金的人員及475元納入自用自宅的水電優待的對象。"},{"start":3145.287,"end":3160.338,"text":"第5提升服務的品質強化營運的績效我們各農場住宿及休息的品質以卓普為核心及生態保育自然景觀環境保護為主軸"},{"start":3162.88,"end":3181.999,"text":"規劃設立111年至115年重大投資的計劃將改善我們露營區及員工宿舍等環境優化以提升服務的品質這個我們專案的成立請大家參考"},{"start":3184.898,"end":3205.858,"text":"去年配合交通部觀光組組團的計劃曾經赴馬來西亞新加坡及韓國等國家參加行銷推廣活動我們也參加了台灣觀光協會辦理的2023年台灣美食展還有ITF台北國際旅展"},{"start":3208.092,"end":3222.816,"text":"並且積極觀光署所舉辦的第一屆觀光亮點獎及武林農場分別獲得了國家最佳的國旅潛力獎與最佳人氣獎等請參閱。"},{"start":3228.294,"end":3245.997,"text":"配合節慶時推出榮民節軍人節及醫護人員節等活動延續山軍將士將領將士以及我們對於國軍任務的官兵譬如飛行員機工廠等以進軍從軍的這種計劃比照榮民優待讓他們到我們農場去休閒活動"},{"start":3258.106,"end":3266.782,"text":"花湖市鼓勵國軍官兵開創第二事業並提供有益從事農業之接推官兵與農民培訓"},{"start":3268.154,"end":3290.966,"text":"我們一共舉辦了兩年三期第四期已經開訓其就業率達43%成效良好但是我們也有困境我們這些結訓的人員其中13位從農以後生產的農產品都不能夠有計劃性的加以推銷受到賣場剝削式的採取"},{"start":3294.508,"end":3317.218,"text":"也希望我們委員能夠協助我們如何跟我們的農業部提倡我們能夠有自己經營的這種推銷的場所來推銷這些產品以達到我們希望青年能夠回歸鄉里去從事漁農的這個政策"},{"start":3320.339,"end":3326.223,"text":"第6次強化軍人退伍後的競爭力我們自105年起已經將學雜補助費由2萬到42萬元調整為2萬到8萬元而且請過後月"},{"start":3335.56,"end":3353.39,"text":"我們在就學就業與軍貼的獎金方面已經有5000多人次大專院校進修補助有2000多人次就業考試進修的補助有664人次我們除了辦理這個二專二級四級大學的"},{"start":3356.127,"end":3380.227,"text":"推爭入學也協助就讀大學院校去年與臺北城市科技大學國立勤益科技大學政修科技大學及景碩科技等這個協助官兵的入學及就業及成效如附表請過夜到第26頁我們鼓勵"},{"start":3384.798,"end":3409.777,"text":"在地參訓就地作業．退出役官兵及眷屬可依職涯．規劃選擇參加本會公告輔助的課程．再訓後就業輔助．其輔導率達到百分之百．輔助的額度已經由4萬元．調高為榮民12萬元．講的這是一年．這個二類的官兵到8萬元．這個請參考"},{"start":3412.967,"end":3437.339,"text":"在事性的補助上委託專業機構提供職業事性的評量職業諮詢的服務職涯講座及職涯探索專業等服務最近我們也聽說對於國軍官兵介退的人員去年比較多我們今年已經開始請我們這個"},{"start":3442.831,"end":3464.758,"text":"這一個處是級副處處長跟他的同仁在每一次專業就業講習中間提供他對於我們續營服役的這種獎勵辦法以及優惠都做出了比較希望能夠再營的官兵繼續留營"},{"start":3466.926,"end":3486.684,"text":"第7連結社會的資源充實服務的能量．定期訪視關懷．這個退出役官兵及眷屬．運用科技輔具．遠距居家照護系統．並與村里長鄰居．榮興志工．甚至於郵局等建立橫向的聯繫．發掘個案．然後轉介投儲．這個服務的人數達到100多萬人"},{"start":3494.008,"end":3518.964,"text":"跨湖山,榮民榮賢基金會以精心的知識及各界的捐款向辦理大學以上親韓榮民子女獎學金、就學輔助及國外求學金融圓夢的計劃,如附表,舉例來說,金融圓夢計劃裡面6人次就有達300萬元,他們被選拔以後,到各國"},{"start":3520.325,"end":3523.367,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":3542.492,"end":3563.405,"text":"我們與桃園市政府文化局設立中華民國眷村資源中心建構眷村知識交流平台及文化保存基地並與民間眷村組織合作培養文化保存人才及專屬出版"},{"start":3564.434,"end":3591.64,"text":"目前全國各縣市62個眷村組織中已經有41個單位有互相合作推廣的關係第5積極連接社會的資源去年9月與財產法人慈濟資金基金會合作共善協議辦理了北中南東區的交流會建立雙方各區的聯繫機制"},{"start":3593.768,"end":3602.675,"text":"請過夜看第6項若是人機己機﹐人力己力的互助精神透過榮民節公益的活動"},{"start":3604.746,"end":3625.621,"text":"當我們與安德烈在一起書畫作品的義賣所賣的所得通通捐贈給這個安德烈的基金會我們除了平時受到他們的捐贈我們也以適當的時間協助他們共同做慈善的活動圖片請參考"},{"start":3631.892,"end":3648.225,"text":"在第8項深化國際退伍軍人的交流剛剛有記者詢問我我們今年可能會到歐洲的國家去做訪問我特別請他們不要先洩露出去我們將要到哪幾個國家"},{"start":3649.653,"end":3674.112,"text":"因為這麼多年來我們受到中共對於這些交流的打壓我們增加了許多工作的困難度所以我們在今年起這個除了努力於對海外拓展我們訪問的基地之外我們也把這個去年度在七八月召開的這個會議以及總統在108年112年"},{"start":3678.908,"end":3697.97,"text":"及我個人110年在開幕會議以預錄的方式表達對我由我組織的美國軍人退伍協會給予祝福並分別由我們會內的李副主委吳副主委及前主任秘書出席在大會中徒電請參考"},{"start":3705.407,"end":3712.575,"text":"第3未來我們工作的重點培育農民子女菁英調整子女的教育補助費"},{"start":3714.222,"end":3735.932,"text":"調整大學以上新韓農民之女就學就業的獎金。內幕我不再多報,但是我們的重點是期望這一些精英在學生返國以後都能夠投效軍旅。我們不斷地宣導,也帶他們去到各基地去參訪,以增加他們對於國防建設的認識。"},{"start":3738.134,"end":3765.212,"text":"第2條高救養其父保障著榮兵的生活今年我們知道我們這個退除役官兵以及軍中調升這個有4%的這個薪資我們已經把我們退休人員奉領退休奉的方案陳報行政院核定後實施這個也會調整到4%"},{"start":3767.321,"end":3777.527,"text":"活化家庭經營管理擴大長照服務的能量為提升各農家照護品質及優化照護的環境"},{"start":3778.584,"end":3798.498,"text":"引進民間創新的思維共同參與公共建設規劃建置營運完成本會榮家促進民間參與公共建設初步的研究目前臺北中江岡山榮家用心辦理BOT或ROT的事辦計劃將來事辦計劃執行成效檢討民間來參與榮家的促參專案"},{"start":3807.834,"end":3824.941,"text":"臺南農家整體的營建工程已經完成．並且有部分已經入住在新的農家．未來將結合高融的臺南分院醫療服務．成為本會第2個醫療合一的園區．第4推動就業軍貼"},{"start":3832.516,"end":3833.056,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3851.792,"end":3862.059,"text":"就業三個月以後我們給予每個月八千至一萬的獎金希望他們穩定就業這個成果已經達到46%以上而且從46%他們離職率來看現在已經大幅降低到9.37%這個我們促進穩定就業成效表請參閱"},{"start":3879.71,"end":3897.709,"text":"接手高雄市立聯合醫院拓展醫療的服務高雄榮總接手營運高雄市立聯合醫院除了有效運作醫學中心與區域醫院轉診的服務之外也疏解"},{"start":3898.59,"end":3912.388,"text":"醫學中心擁擠就醫的人潮提供更多榮民和市民優質的醫療服務擴大醫療的範圍受惠的是全體的榮民是全體的居民"},{"start":3914.717,"end":3942.424,"text":"結語本會將持續精進退伍的工作維護退伍軍人之尊榮權益與福祉使國人感受國家積極照顧退伍袍著作為以吸引更多的青年到軍中保衛國家發展志業最後我個人的感想我在退伍會已經接近五年但是覺得有許多的事情都還沒有為之完善也請"},{"start":3943.703,"end":3952.175,"text":"各位委員能夠多於指導讓我們來改進謝謝各位委員的參與謝謝各位給我們指導"},{"start":3961.786,"end":3989.022,"text":"沒有的話我們也請我們委員參酌書面那接下來進行本會委員的詢答本會委員的時間是6加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點30分發言登記截止那如果有臨時提案請於10點30分前提出那我們會在11點是會議狀況來進行處理現在首先請沈伯陽委員上台進行詢答"},{"start":4000.697,"end":4029.527,"text":"那有請這個馮主委謝謝好請馮主委委員早安好早安那謝謝這個主委的這一個業務報告那這一個退輔會的作為然後以及這個一些福利的一些提供說真的是區域蠻完善的我的過世的這個阿公也是八二三炮戰的榮民一直也是受到退輔會的照顧"},{"start":4030.367,"end":4051.409,"text":"那我今天想要問的是一個非常單純的問題就是我們退將跟這個赴中國的問題那我知道其實退將的管制主要還是在國防部所以我今天不會去碰觸到一些管制的問題比較是接觸到就是今天退役軍官在退輔會我們怎麼去對待的一些事情那第一個我是想要先從這邊看起就是說"},{"start":4051.929,"end":4075.119,"text":"新聞一直都有報導就是說我們有各式這個各式軍種的一些退將那副中所以呢其實呢這個趨於頻繁然後也越來越多那在我們的這個整理呢就可以看到我們這個退役中將這個張燕婷她就說目前他們對於我們這個共諜就是對於軍人的這個滲透有四個手法那第一個手法當然就是這一個尋找這個退役的軍官搭橋樑"},{"start":4076.88,"end":4098.782,"text":"放長線釣大魚夫人幫利用女性以及一些文化交流等等的活動我比較好奇的就是因為在Peter Mattis的研究他有講過2006到2016那10年是中國滲透我們軍方的黃金10年那個大概有40個案件那現在從16到現在也快要10年了"},{"start":4099.002,"end":4099.462,"text":"國防委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":4119.068,"end":4147.449,"text":"他去接觸我們現役的軍人到底都是透過誰來接觸結果我們從2015一直整理到這個2023就會發現他所有的協力者都是退役的這些軍官也就是說呢剛剛講的那四個手法都是第一個手法最多啦那所以這邊我是想第一個想問的就是退伏會第一個就是有沒有知道就是整理這些退役的這些軍官他們最主要是從事什麼業務然後以及他們的年齡分佈到底是什麼樣子"},{"start":4150.54,"end":4176.52,"text":"這個回報委員在去年我們退伍會尤其是我主委破例的為去年因為中國大陸要籌辦黃埔軍校成立100週年的紀念我特別為這件事情勸導我們的退出役官兵"},{"start":4179.535,"end":4207.281,"text":"黃埔軍校從大陸撤退到台灣來以後整個的遷移到台灣來了我們所有的軍事訓練都以黃埔精神作為我們訓練的精神教育我們應該要認清你去參加這個活動不是去支援不是去資助而是去看他們怎麼辦但是我勸導他們"},{"start":4208.834,"end":4209.014,"text":"主席"},{"start":4231.584,"end":4259.631,"text":"他們對於我們這個滲透跟希望能夠譬如說煽動挑撥製造混亂等等我給委員報告據這個距離還差得很遠以我去過二三十次中國大陸的經驗他們從來沒有人找過我怎麼會不找我呢我當過情報次長我是空軍的上將"},{"start":4260.99,"end":4274.643,"text":"最有這個宣傳性最有利用性他們都沒有來找我為什麼這些在我個人呢當過國防部長以後才了解這些是底下的一種驅動"},{"start":4277.898,"end":4292.885,"text":"無法撼動我們整個退伍軍人愛國的精神是無法撼動的主委謝謝齁那這個我是知道就是說不管我們是對於他們的精神喊話或是他們的勸導我覺得這當然是非常重要但因為我們在看這些案例的時候他們經營的旅遊業是蠻多的"},{"start":4294.326,"end":4314.775,"text":"然後接下來就是這一些退役的這些軍官為什麼我們想知道他的年齡分布是因為像我們都知道我們在這些退伍之前他們有一些執訓還有像剛剛你有提到有提供一些就業的幫助等等之類的所以我們是在想說如果我們對於這一些退役的軍官的年紀分布是比較了解的我們就可以比較知道要怎麼把他拉住這是第一點"},{"start":4315.735,"end":4334.062,"text":"第二點這個退役軍這個我先跳過就是他們除了這個以外還會做很多這些書畫什麼等等之類的一些交流等等之類你可以看到他可以把我們這個退役軍官的這些圖像就全部放在上面然後也包含了這一些所謂全球州會書畫學院文化協會的一些交流"},{"start":4334.662,"end":4359.209,"text":"那這些交流非常非常的多那到底哪一些才會變成風險因為風險要控管嘛以我們現在國家安全來講我們大概是一個案例都不能夠允許所以對於這個風險控管要怎麼做除了福利的給予之外還有執訓這些相關之外我們是不是還有其他的手段那在這邊呢我們唯一能夠想到跟退伏會比較相關的當然還是福利那在這邊呢我們也可以看到就是"},{"start":4361.28,"end":4378.793,"text":"主委之前有講過就是退役的官兵如果違反這個國安法這個停退服的這個給付然後要追討這個退休分那我們現在在想的事情是因為這些判決他的曠日廢時那要等到他定案也要非常長的時間如果我們今天真的要等到那一個時候"},{"start":4379.373,"end":4398.96,"text":"說真的對他們來講這個成本其實並不是那麼的高那其實並沒有辦法真的把它拉住所以我想問說退府會有沒有機會去研議看看就是如果我們今天是不是在起訴的階段的時候呢就可以做停止或者甚至到喪失本條例的一個權益的一個做法我覺得可能只能做到停止啦還沒有辦法做到喪失"},{"start":4399.72,"end":4421.776,"text":"這是第一點那第二點就是因為我們現在有反滲透法因為退役軍官呢他並不是第一點因為通常來講他們的目標是最後是現役的軍人那退役的軍官是他的中間人那這個中間人呢如果他今天被接觸之後再去接觸現役的軍人他本身是屬於這個仲介仲介最主要的規定反而是在反滲透法"},{"start":4422.336,"end":4446.227,"text":"反送中法現在並沒有在這裡面的規定就是說你今天不管是要停職還是這一個喪屍所以不知道這退府會有沒有相關的這個言議能夠提出就是我們能不能夠把其他的規定放進去這是第一個那第二個就是除了這些之外能不能夠把起訴階段的就把它放在停職那這樣的話對我們來講能夠拉住這些人才會真的有一個棒子"},{"start":4446.747,"end":4473.338,"text":"那不然的話呢如果說我們今天主委之前也有提過這個是能夠拿回這個退休房什麼等等之類的那是不是能夠針對這一些呢在一個月之內能夠提出相關的研議方案這個報告委員一個月我們可能不可能提出第一個我們自己要研議第二個是關於法律的問題還是要從法律的程序來解決但是我可以跟委員報告"},{"start":4475.736,"end":4491.543,"text":"從報章雜誌跟您統計數據出數字假如我不是有軍人的背景沒有對軍人的信心我會很慌亂哦這麼多我可以跟委員報告我接觸到的基層是非常多的"},{"start":4493.601,"end":4517.647,"text":"沒有人可以到目前為止這一些我把它當成小小不可能撼動國軍對於國家的熱愛也不可能煽動老百姓起來做什麼紅統都不可能所以有這個事情不要把它看得太嚴重我們已經有相關單位在中間比您講的還清楚的正在進行"},{"start":4519.721,"end":4523.104,"text":"致詢委員了解也報本委員會。接下來進行詢答的委員是林楚瑩委員"},{"start":4557.728,"end":4557.748,"text":"委員長"},{"start":4569.246,"end":4587.925,"text":"主委早安剛剛我非常仔細的聆聽了你的業務報告包括了這些書面的內容那麼因為本席自己的弟弟也是空軍的退伍的軍官所以說我知道退輔會對於退休的軍人以及他的家屬們的照料包括您所寫的不論是長照醫療"},{"start":4589.286,"end":4617.158,"text":"或者是役族或者是子女的照顧都非常健全但是非常巧的就是我想要關注的題目同樣的就是如果退伍的軍人真的叛變了國家之後我們該怎麼辦我也找了新聞這是2024跟2023年三個已經判刑確定的案例我稍微念一下以第一個三個退休軍官收錢當共諜國安法有罪然後他已經定驗"},{"start":4618.459,"end":4638.519,"text":"他所做的破壞行為也許是少數的害群之馬就像您剛剛所說的可是我念一下他是收取為中國從事發展組織勤搜刺探軍情之外包括我們的兵力助手報告還有我們南沙太平洋工作的報告這是第一個案例他所做的事情"},{"start":4638.959,"end":4668.38,"text":"你要知道他退休了領著退休縫拿著國家對他未來退休所給予的部分但是他傷害的是現役的軍人我想主委您過去也擔過國防部長您知道像這種情資洩漏不只是發展組織是情資洩漏對於現役的傷害是非常大的這三個案例您瞭解嗎您知道嗎因為他都是退伍退休之後所發生的事情"},{"start":4670.217,"end":4688.253,"text":"報告委員當國防部長的時候這些案例我個人都了解因為這個是我個人管轄的業務之一而且我個人非常贊成要重罰"},{"start":4689.704,"end":4702.042,"text":"而且也要重賞提供這些資料的人要重賞參與這些不法行動的人要重罰我個人絕對是如此贊成而且給您報告"},{"start":4703.607,"end":4724.94,"text":"規定要處分的要把他的薪資收回的我們執行的幾乎百分之百您確定嗎是因為根據我們2019年所修正的國安法當中就是要繳回退休貨所以您知道現在有多少的軍官被追討而且追討回來多少金額您有嗎這個我們有這個資料的"},{"start":4728.53,"end":4728.951,"text":"現在現役違反國安法要追"},{"start":4738.786,"end":4740.808,"text":"這個我不會滿意但是我想跟您報告這個中間14個人中間吶"},{"start":4766.728,"end":4779.245,"text":"幾乎有6個人還在訴訟中他在訴訟中他就不願意把錢繳回好沒問題因為我知道我所留列的這14位當中請大家也可以也請主委看一下"},{"start":4780.604,"end":4795.973,"text":"這些都是定驗但定驗之後他們會做一個就是所謂行政救濟這樣的一個過程但是大家來看一下其中有4位返還是0元那到底是完全沒有執行還是他已經"},{"start":4797.293,"end":4811.239,"text":"脫產無法執行我當然知道有兩個包括這位張上孝跟陳忠孝因為他還在救濟當中但是在救濟當中的其他的人呢還有像這位鄭信忠孝才追回21塊我要讓您來看的是以這個鄭信忠孝來舉例喔"},{"start":4817.842,"end":4827.893,"text":"他收受中國將近60萬的款項協助中國吸收現役的軍人發展組織這是非常恐怖的行為但是以他110年的9月9號判刑確定到我們來進行追繳有三個月然後呢我們在111年12月12號又進行了一年才"},{"start":4839.125,"end":4852.636,"text":"送出執行而且執行沒有結果然後在第二次的時候又過了九個月言下之意這過程中有兩年我要講的是在這樣的執行過程中他要脫產他早就已經脫產了"},{"start":4855.598,"end":4863.281,"text":"那麼他要讓他的戶頭上面做一個所謂的侵害債權的行為也都已經發生了就像您剛剛宣示的您希望能夠重罰或者是追回他的退休縫但是也這中間因為有太多的過程當中是可以讓他有機會脫產以至於前面我們看到的有可能追不回來又可能是他名下沒有財產所以我想問的就是我們可不可能借盡稅捐機關"},{"start":4886.325,"end":4901.681,"text":"的做法就是在我們稅捐計徵法當中會有一個妥善的行政手段能夠來進行比如說禁止處分做假扣押或者是管收讓他一旦定念之後判刑確定之後不要再給他這麼多的時間來進行脫產有沒有可能演繹"},{"start":4904.977,"end":4924.694,"text":"報告委員,我們已經把6個人共有2700多萬的因繳納的金額這些人員送法務部執勤收繳,這個我們已經做到了而且我們已經停縫,讓這些人都拉不到後面的退休縫"},{"start":4925.775,"end":4948.021,"text":"已經在執行了對 已經修法了是所以我想問您的就是那在這個14個人當中還有將近4千萬沒有返還的過程當中現在決定如何處理那會不會有可能就是因為時間拖得久了就讓他完全脫產也拿不回來以我目前這樣的一個數據喔我想其實大家最想知道的是不是真的有將近4千萬的退休分是沒有追回來的在這14個人當中"},{"start":4950.938,"end":4951.981,"text":"這個您的統計並沒有錯是應繳的就是4000多萬對"},{"start":4956.141,"end":4982.724,"text":"那麼這些人做如何的處理等等的我們會繼續的去追查而且我們一定會站在國家一定的法律面來執行請您放心好我可以讓這個幾副處的處長羅處長您來講一下現在的情況是怎麼樣那麼剛剛我所說的這個建議當中可不可能研擬可不可以執行或是其實已經在反上因為我們知道一般的納稅人他在收到這個納稅"},{"start":4984.085,"end":5012.017,"text":"通知書的時候其實這個就是一個催角的行為這整個法律的行動就已經開始了如果說稅捐單位認為他有可能會逃稅的時候他可以做一些行政處分的作為避免他脫產等等那麼對於這些同樣犯罪而且判刑確定的軍官來講因為他知道他必須要有過去的退休分要追回有沒有可能我們接下來後續是可以有降更多的行政處分"},{"start":5014.273,"end":5021.219,"text":"委員好我是退除情務副處處長跟委員報告那有關於這個國防部只要他因為"},{"start":5021.766,"end":5026.847,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":5051.508,"end":5076.186,"text":"送行政執行署去執行那同時每年在所得稅申報完畢之後在七八月我們還會去寒查追蹤確實把這個債權要做一個處理請委員放心那麼有關於相關的這個處理的後續也麻煩就是您給我一個進度相關的報告那麼是不是可以有更積極的作為或是一些行政手段也麻煩你們再給我們一個報告好不好"},{"start":5076.866,"end":5083.289,"text":"好謝謝林楚英委員好主委處長請回好接下來進行詢答的委員是羅梅林委員謝謝主席有請馮主委來馮主委請"},{"start":5104.293,"end":5132.032,"text":"委員早安主委早安主委非常恭喜剛才您在報告的時候有提到就是說臺北跟臺中榮總今年有榮獲美國Newsweek雜誌評選為2024年全球最佳智慧醫院其實除了這個之外更要恭喜我們北榮更是美國Newsweek更是評選了我們的北榮為全球最佳醫院的"},{"start":5133.133,"end":5144.877,"text":"兩百五十強我想這是一個很不容易的一個成績而且台灣呢是唯一的入榜的這個醫院超越了這個台大在這裡呢先恭喜我們退輔會跟榮總那可是呢這麼優異的成績那我們是不是應該更要來重視所謂的互併比"},{"start":5153.76,"end":5153.78,"text":"互併筆"},{"start":5170.259,"end":5177.404,"text":"目前呢我們所看到就是衛福部針對這個護病筆呢也提出了這個政策在今年1月26號的時候他們就有提出了這個獎勵先行逐步推動金引領這個標竿三員子來推動三班的這個護病筆那這個政策呢是在3月1號就要正式上路那我有取得我們榮總1月份的三班護病筆的這個數據喔"},{"start":5193.934,"end":5217.981,"text":"那我們來看這個屬於醫學中心標準的臺北北榮中榮跟這個高榮我們看這個白天班的部分白天班醫學中心的標準是白天班必須小於6小班小夜班必須小於9大夜班必須小於11那白天班的部分目前是符合這個標準的可是小夜班的部分可能高榮還要"},{"start":5218.541,"end":5218.801,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":5237.662,"end":5251.294,"text":"針對於這個我們互併比的這個推動的政策我們榮總要如何來充實這個護理人力那到目前為止在政策上路之前我們有沒有補齊有沒有符合標準請問主委"},{"start":5254.107,"end":5280.165,"text":"報告委員我曾經為這個問題跟這個陳院長兩個互相這個研討是而且我們每三個月都會檢討一次是的陳院長告訴我等一下假如我講的不清楚請陳院長再再這個努力是第一個呢我們當然要調整薪資第二個除了這個之外還有工作的環境我們也要調整第三個就是我們要把"},{"start":5281.357,"end":5281.377,"text":"是﹖"},{"start":5311.977,"end":5326.863,"text":"那陳院長這邊主委已經指示你有沒有需要補充的部分呢因為我看到夜班真的是就是北榮中榮高榮都沒有辦法來做達標那當然剛剛我們主委已經有指示了那我們怎麼來做呢在細節的部分"},{"start":5328.764,"end":5351.217,"text":"報告委員那個白班跟小班目前是OK的不過大夜班呢現在因為很多人信任臺北榮總全國各地轉了很多病人進來如果要大夜班也馬上現在就打標所以我是說問你有沒有什麼對策嗎所以現在是北榮市剛剛主委向委員報告的我們的福利政策現在做了很多包括我們的新宿舍1200床"},{"start":5352.658,"end":5367.432,"text":"醫護人員的宿舍6月中旬就會取得使用執照一個月只收1000塊我相信護理師會進來好好的照顧他們臺北榮總現在是在臺灣護理師不夠的情況之下相對護理師比較穩定的意願我們會繼續努力"},{"start":5369.113,"end":5372.214,"text":"因為我們既然有這麼高的殊榮是全國全球這一個前250強的這醫院是不簡單的所以呼併筆也希望說大家來做這個努力OK好那再來還有一點我想請教的一下就是有關於這個北榮那北榮在2018年的時候9月我們有推出了新著名的特別門診"},{"start":5395.32,"end":5423.654,"text":"提供新南向國家新住民快速便捷的這個就醫的管道可是很可惜的就是在去年12月的時候就停辦了請問發生了什麼事報告委員當時在107年9月1號成立新住民門診我們的美意就是來照顧我們的新住民這個非常的重要不過實行之後發現來的人真的不多為什麼 人島不足嗎第一個不是第一個來的因為台北榮總是一個照顧其眾南韓的"},{"start":5424.594,"end":5448.07,"text":"醫院重症那很多的新住民大概在當地的區醫院地區醫院就已經看了重症進來的時候都經過轉介大部分都旁邊有眷屬或是有陪同人員過來他的都到各科去不會說一個加一科看所有的科他可能指定要看骨癌看大腸癌都已經到各科部去了你不可能說每一個科都是新住民門診所以語言的溝通基本上我們發現不是問題"},{"start":5449.251,"end":5471.043,"text":"我們想請教一下院長,我們除了針對新住民之外,像移工呢?移工有沒有辦法使用這個系統?在那之前,你們除了針對新住民,還有來自於新南向的這個移工呢?因為我們所知道就是說,其實很多移工,他如果生病了,其實很多時候他們是不願意到醫院。我們曾經問過為什麼?他們說因為醫生講的我都聽不懂。"},{"start":5474.525,"end":5485.484,"text":"那再來還有一點就是說他們也無法去用中文去表達說我現在是發生了什麼狀況所以他們在語言不通情況之下"},{"start":5486.789,"end":5486.929,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5508.418,"end":5531.946,"text":"臺灣的這個外籍移工去就診我想應該有那我們在同意這部分這個部分我們做的怎麼樣移工來開刀的治療的有一部分的數目那大部分都有僱主派人陪他過來這是第一點第二個現在我們的手機AI很多即時的翻譯都已經有了只要他講一句譬如說越南文我們就可以知道這個翻成中文"},{"start":5533.147,"end":5550.764,"text":"可是我們有一些專有的醫療名詞要如何翻我想手機沒有辦法專業到很多醫療的名詞可以翻譯過來像這個部分說實在我們在實際我們會詢問到一些移工他說真的很害怕去醫院因為無法表達溝通會出了問題"},{"start":5551.445,"end":5552.465,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":5568.342,"end":5568.843,"text":"謝謝委員我覺得這個是一個非常重要的提點我們會朝這條路來做"},{"start":5587.682,"end":5615.209,"text":"然後各種同意書各種說明書我們會翻成各式各樣的語言讓移工也知道讓新住民都知道對因為我們在臺灣的外來人口有超過百萬所以我在想榮總應該在這部分應該也要肩負很重的責任我比較失望就是說有關於這個新住民特別門診這個庭辦的這個事情所以演算到就是移工的這個服務我想這部分的話榮總需要來做努力OK好以上謝謝好謝謝羅美林委員各位請回"},{"start":5618.469,"end":5621.311,"text":"來接下來進行詢答的委員是黃仁委員麥克風謝謝主席就請馮主委主委請"},{"start":5650.174,"end":5659.199,"text":"委員好是我們就以業務報告裡面的一個議題來做一個就教"},{"start":5660.799,"end":5668.866,"text":"退不會在113年預算案編列出稅出1,297,256萬4千元較112年度的預算增加了434萬4千增加了1.58%"},{"start":5684.139,"end":5708.42,"text":"那另外就是特別在這個地方除了你的身份是退部委的主委我也要稱呼你是我的學長那本席在一樣是空心出身退役之後馮主委你在去年在媒體專訪的時候想起當年菜鳥飛行的經驗"},{"start":5711.383,"end":5722.39,"text":"想起初次飛行簡直是怕死那最驚險的飛行狀況就是曾碰過駕駛了T38的飛機也是當時的主教練機所以在當發動"},{"start":5731.121,"end":5752.78,"text":"發動機失效的時候更不巧的是當天氣候狀況不佳心裡七上八下幸好有平安的歸來那當然這個是我親舊我想你清楚的高偉和曾經也擔任過在台東這個擔任過這個富人隊長對是"},{"start":5756.761,"end":5785.087,"text":"所以本席既然是我們是學長跟學弟你應該身為原住民的學弟希望能夠多照顧我們退出役官兵的原住民那當然本席是有史以來是第一次在國防外交委員會擔任委員所以現在就是我想本席"},{"start":5786.28,"end":5803.192,"text":"就叫主委推不會相關轉投資事業公司及農場禁用的職員的狀況如何當中禁用退除役員主委的比例狀況如何這個部分我想請教"},{"start":5807.516,"end":5821.966,"text":"委員好我是事業管理處處長楊長正現在我回答委員的問題我們農場的職員工總共聘用了447個人那其中原住民的同胞我們的弟兄大概聘用124個人"},{"start":5824.287,"end":5840.061,"text":"平庸少的原因並不是他們不願意來,因為高山地區偏遠地區,所以他們服務意願不高,雖然待遇很好,我們最基礎的員工進來就4萬多塊,平均如果表現良好的話,他一年可以領19個月的薪水。"},{"start":5840.902,"end":5850.651,"text":"所以說禁用了124個人 佔比是27%點多所以說我們是很努力在工作另外一個就是我們的委營狀況 也是這個樣子我們委營的人數總共有1791個人"},{"start":5857.517,"end":5859.158,"text":"現在我問的是他增加了多少的目前"},{"start":5881.38,"end":5905.412,"text":"我們一直在增加每年統計比如說我們缺工我們高山農場事實上是缺工的比如說武林農場跟福壽山農場其實在環山部落大黎山地區我們都建立非常良好關係也鼓勵我們的原住民同胞青年能回鄉工作目前為止這些都是回鄉工作來參加到我們農場的服務的"},{"start":5907.045,"end":5931.725,"text":"地形地物在就地的立場上當然是因為有比較偏遠當然也希望說能夠在宣導上鼓勵他們退除役官兵能夠有就業回鄉的機會這個是一個基本的一個你們退不回基本本來就要宣導的好不好那另外就是33家主要轉投資事業截至112年底"},{"start":5933.826,"end":5934.747,"text":"報告委員這個我還要再統計統計資料以後向委員回答"},{"start":5955.745,"end":5963.5,"text":"不是,現在你不是要再給我回答什麼本來今天你這個答案就應該要知道"},{"start":5964.865,"end":5991.326,"text":"知道今天我可能要問你這個議題因為在你的報告作業裡面就是非常清楚這個議題所以我要問你因為我現在重視的是原住民的這一些員額那我希望你未來我在詢問你的時候不要再給我說補充的報告這是一個非常不禮貌的因為你就業"},{"start":5993.207,"end":6015.366,"text":"這個業務報告裡面就非常清楚就是說你所列出來本來是應該回答本席的以上謝謝委員的指導報告委員我可以跟你們報告一件額外的事情嗎今天你看我們軍中啊空軍有兩個原住民一個當副司令一個當參謀長"},{"start":6016.937,"end":6016.997,"text":"主席"},{"start":6035.3,"end":6059.765,"text":"這個比例原則當然是一定要重視現在我們非常以前在早期不管是四年代五年代六十年代已經家境清寒有的是轉到軍中裡面發展但是原住民在軍中裡面是非常忠於國家忠於服從命令這是一個基本"},{"start":6061.165,"end":6088.196,"text":"那當然在軍中裡面就會有負以什麼責任跟榮譽這是軍中裡面的一個教父的一個使命我在軍中裡面也接受到正統的一個軍事教育所以我非常清楚那升官升遷是一個非常重要的因為我們很多的原住民的官兵在軍中裡面非常非常的服從"},{"start":6088.916,"end":6089.256,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6106.346,"end":6106.846,"text":"委員我覺得你講的很對"},{"start":6134.512,"end":6153.837,"text":"第三外界節的退譜會事業單位高階職籤大都由退伍上校將擔任請問諸位有沒有機會開放一些職籤由原住民來選任這個是一個新的議題"},{"start":6157.832,"end":6163.117,"text":"就在退役原住民就業的媒合進度如何今天退步會的就業報告第39頁有提到退步會的業務範圍由推動促進就業津貼"},{"start":6184.821,"end":6205.405,"text":"退除役官兵重返職場 為退補會 連結原住民委員會 強化原住民促進就業方案所提報輔導成效 112年輔導原住民退除役官兵穩定就業人數只有749人"},{"start":6209.144,"end":6236.286,"text":"又根據退伏會官網截至112年12月統計資料顯示原住民退出役官兵多達10267人每合比例只有7%為何黃同委員因為時間到了我們請退伏會再要回答不足的地方請向委員當面報告委員各項指導我們都會下去那這個順便報告給我好不好"},{"start":6237.942,"end":6240.463,"text":"有請我過去的長官馮主委主委請過去在您的麾下"},{"start":6268.554,"end":6295.105,"text":"受到您的指導跟學習我們能夠有機會在今天在這個角色從當年的學習變成質詢但實際上我們要把它是感謝跟敬意因為由於您的指導所以我們在兩岸情勢區域安全建立起一些邏輯框架分析的方法因此今天的並不是需要您回答但是我要強調的"},{"start":6297.409,"end":6325.103,"text":"所謂的國家的嚇阻力量並不只於建立在軍事上面另外最重要的一環就是社會的堅韌性而退府會在社會堅韌性上扮演了一個重要的角色今天兩岸的情勢雖然嚴峻但是尚可控制無奈是我們沒有一個從上到下的國家安全政策的指導所以跨部會的協調"},{"start":6326.681,"end":6327.321,"text":"以哈的戰爭在巴勒斯坦今天已經是150天了"},{"start":6352.816,"end":6378.525,"text":"如果未來戰爭發生我們最重要的就國軍來看有一項是需要退伏會來強化協助的就是戰傷的醫療因為真正的現在的狀況大家都說今日的烏克蘭明日台灣其實這個例子是完全錯誤"},{"start":6379.758,"end":6380.318,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":6399.98,"end":6400.681,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6419.281,"end":6419.541,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6438.425,"end":6463.074,"text":"所以我們講社會的堅韌性它包括能源氣油水電網最重要的還有一個醫療體系所以我今天在這邊提出這個建言希望在國軍努力強化這個戰傷醫療的同時我們的醫院在ICU在血漿的被變在人工皮在麻醉劑這些東西"},{"start":6465.649,"end":6494.303,"text":"要有一個強化的長程計劃八年前的八仙樂園粉塵暴499位傷患就把北部的醫院完全癱瘓了所以這個例子是給我們一個很好的經驗教訓不要滿足於我買多少飛機多少飛彈多少戰車多少軍艦我們真正的關鍵是退府會成為社會上的一個重要支柱也就是我們榮民醫院的強化以上提供參考謝謝"},{"start":6496.971,"end":6497.331,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們有請主委"},{"start":6529.633,"end":6529.693,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":6557.176,"end":6568.223,"text":"國軍有很多高階藉民現在沒有職務的將領我當部長以後知道的更多我想應該把這個機會讓給他們"},{"start":6570.865,"end":6571.805,"text":"首先呢"},{"start":6596.684,"end":6623.955,"text":"我要堅持我們應該要繼續的執法當然這個執法中間有很多技術性的可以去協調互相諒解在20多年前我當情報次長到金門去訪問可以說是示導當初兩岸的漁民是非常的和諧而且越界的一定會請回來"},{"start":6627.162,"end":6634.746,"text":"不是關而是扣留兩天三天大家很平和的再放回去我們也會被他們這樣子"},{"start":6636.218,"end":6662.706,"text":"希望再恢復到那個年代那個年代我們用什麼智慧保存到兩岸的這種平和現在是時候了要去做這個事情現在有一種說法呢那是說如果我們應該要比照比方說像阿根廷說如果今天看到大陸的漁船過界的話我們就要炮擊他們你覺得這樣是一個能夠回到以前過去那個年代的方式嗎"},{"start":6663.066,"end":6670.907,"text":"我覺得這不是最好的方式這不是最好的方式對我們不應該這個樣子好的因為什麼因為對岸是我們也是中國人嗯"},{"start":6672.608,"end":6695.329,"text":"也希望說能夠和平的來處理但是執法仍然是我們中華民國一定要的了解您的意思那再來呢想要跟您請教就是我看到我們報告裡面最近我們的榮家做了很多跟長照有關係的一些設備那很多長照的工作是正確的方向那現在長照的系統也越來越科技化越來越需要資安"},{"start":6696.11,"end":6713.316,"text":"但是我們去向你們詢問了相關的資料之後發現這個所謂的資安認證部分似乎出了一些問題首先請教主委你覺得我們在配這些長照系統的過程當中資安重不重要如果沒有重視資安的話會發生什麼樣的一些情況這個資安當然非常的重要第一個我們可以防制非親友親屬"},{"start":6725.872,"end":6754.573,"text":"來準備請領他的遺產或者是遺物還有第二個我們不願意把這些資料拉回去以後被對方或者他的友人做一種非正確性傾向於政治的宣傳這個我們不同意而且還有一些保險公司或許也會很需要這些資料那反而就會造成我們的農民受到不公平的對待"},{"start":6755.333,"end":6773.825,"text":"但是我們像你們請教之後發現我們包含在板橋榮家也好那這些您看一下現在上面的畫面我們詢問你們說是否有產品具有資安認證但我們得到的結果是都沒有的但這些比方說像是生命真相量測自動上傳系統"},{"start":6774.565,"end":6800.31,"text":"或者是說安心智慧床墊他會記錄到你可能的翻身次數等等這些跟我們的榮民朋友他切身相關他是相關的數據如果沒有資安認證的話是否會影響到我們剛剛主委您講的這些問題因為他是一個封閉的網路他是在榮家出了榮家他就沒有效別人也接觸不到所以我在想目前這個狀況"},{"start":6802.15,"end":6825.246,"text":"我才去過巴德跟桃園榮家我覺得我目前來講很滿意我相信這些榮家系統他都是可以去做治安認證的因為我們在很多其他的單位比方說可能其他像醫院我就不會問您這個問題因為醫院的系統我們像榮總等等他一定都是有的"},{"start":6825.726,"end":6846.825,"text":"但其實實際上這些公司他也基本上可以做出有資安認證的產品可是我們看到的是我們在整個過程當中都是沒有的我會建議這個部分需要提升因為包含我們未來會建制像是無線網路的建制計畫那包含是很多的一些失智照顧的計畫等等這些我們會想說他的網"},{"start":6847.566,"end":6870.376,"text":"沒有外往出去他就不會有治安的疑慮我的建議是呢我們還是要重新整理一下榮家的智慧系統裡面慢慢逐一的去改善讓他的治安能夠更加的被重視能夠取得認證的我們應該盡可能輔導我們先選擇有治安認證的系統那才不會等到有漏洞之後我舉個例子2019年的時候我們台灣有22家醫療場所受到勒索病毒的攻擊"},{"start":6877.219,"end":6877.399,"text":"好的"},{"start":6900.506,"end":6924.306,"text":"跟委員做一下補充報告我是統計資訊處處長基本上因為現在對於資安的認證比如說是地方第三方的認證基本上是對整個資安的作為包括可能管理面技術面策略面這個部分是比較大對單一產品的有但是目前比較少但是針對這個情況現在引進的產品大概都是單一的產品所以"},{"start":6924.906,"end":6925.246,"text":"這個我們本來就知道啦"},{"start":6942.208,"end":6970.323,"text":"所以我的意思是說其實我們在其他的單位如果要跟政府投標單一系統它仍然會要求你有治安認證所以這些系統進來了以後包括它的原碼掃描、落點掃描還有要經過我們的內部網路的時候都會經過我們防火牆跟其他的防護措施做處理甚至於我們自己本身也對著這些導入的時候會有一個注意事項我建議你們未來在採購這些系統的時候就應該一開始在標上面就要說你要去取得治安認證"},{"start":6971.223,"end":6971.743,"text":"謝謝徐曉欣委員接下來請王定宇委員"},{"start":7010.846,"end":7015.07,"text":"主席麻煩主委主委我們兩個應該是在這個空間相處最久的人"},{"start":7026.781,"end":7041.012,"text":"很高興再次見面那今天是我們這個會期也是這一屆的第一次委員會那我有幾些問題剛好延續還好您在我看各位處長大概都是老面孔所以一些舊問題我們可以持續追蹤"},{"start":7042.293,"end":7062.739,"text":"在業務報告裡面我常常重視的是我們安置我們的軍事官兵的比例特別是我們在民間像新字頭的天然氣公司啊新興客運等等我們持股比例多少我們盡量做到安置軍事官兵的比例盡量接近權責相輔福利相輔"},{"start":7063.519,"end":7090.369,"text":"第二個這個安置的福利以往可能中高階居多數我們現在職業軍人包含職業兵越來越多第一類第二類退伍軍人增加我們希望多幫助這一些還很年輕他可能10年就退了或者20年退不過40來歲所以對基層的中低階的官士兵的安置我們也希望提高人數所以我比較注重這兩個數字所以第一個我特別挑出新章"},{"start":7091.468,"end":7116.594,"text":"我們在多次的委員會討論就是安置比例的問題目前我把所有數字看了一遍好像只有新章最難配合在退伏會持股比例34.08那新章目前安置的我們退伍軍人是17.35大概就一半跟其他新自備的天然氣公司我們其他的事業單位"},{"start":7117.594,"end":7128.836,"text":"我差距有一段相當的距離我可不可以請教一下為什麼新章天然氣的輔導我們的退伍軍人就業特別低原因是什麼"},{"start":7130.197,"end":7147.109,"text":"委員好 我是事業管理處主任楊常政我先跟您回答這個問題事實上我們也非常重視這個問題因為我們整體的比例其實我們總共33%現在已經42%的安置率了但是新章公司經過我們3年的努力其實有成長那個成長在誤差值範圍內是是是"},{"start":7151.091,"end":7166.586,"text":"但是我們會持續努力除了為什麼為什麼特別低你剛才講到一點喔你們在協助我們的退伍的弟兄姊妹們就業其實是成長喔30多%到40多%不錯喔那你的不錯這個又特別低那他的問題就特別突兀嘛"},{"start":7166.886,"end":7183.432,"text":"其實我可以更好但是因為被他拉下來所以比較表現不好最主要的原因我跟委員報告事實上我們不止一次去拜訪國珠河村董事長因為當時李文宗副主委也在這邊答詢這個議題說到如果真的拉不上來開董事會他要親自帶隊去好好問一下嘛"},{"start":7184.993,"end":7210.58,"text":"這一個家公司到底有什麼問題我們去拜訪朱和聲董事長其實他最主要的問題為什麼成長速度這麼慢是因為這三年來員工流動的比例實在是太少了像這三年來我們雖然只進步了5%百分之五而已只是占他們員工新進用的人數已經是絕大部分你想的理由是他的舊員工沒人走所以我就沒辦法安置新人進去那我如果查起來不是這樣子怎麼辦當然"},{"start":7212.961,"end":7234.41,"text":"他們跟我回報的狀況是這個樣子是這個樣子你們有董事在裡面對所以說你們可以看他的業務報告欸報告委員人事機用你看得到怎麼他講就算數報告委員所以說為了改善這個狀況我們特別派了當地的彰化地區的榮福樹處長去擔任那個公司的董事我坦白講不要形塑好像新章"},{"start":7235.558,"end":7258.25,"text":"我特別不喜歡禁用退伍軍人,如果這個名字叼上去,我坦白講他會倒大楣,這不好耶,你同意是嗎?我不相信這樣子啊,但是我希望把他查明,因為他很突兀,他用的就特別少,好不好,這是新章的問題。第二個,我接受也尊重剛才我們馮主委講的,我們對外交的失誤,有時候講太細反而推不動。"},{"start":7259.531,"end":7269.698,"text":"那我們今年國際退伍軍人事務交流從原來的預算627萬5千元提升到1127萬6千元成長500萬1千元有成長那為什麼會有成長這500萬向委員報告最主要就是我們成長兩個部分第一個是機票那另外我們剛剛因為機票漲價機票漲價第二個就是國內接待的一些相關事務"},{"start":7289.417,"end":7289.657,"text":"我想讓副主委去"},{"start":7319.281,"end":7343.799,"text":"因為有些國家對於上將還當過部長的他們會有一點點你上將當過部長的現在有一個在當某一國的總統那一國名字我不好意思講出來因為我怕你們要去你懂我意思嗎其實你去對北約或者有另外一個層次的交流但是你指派副主委我想應該是李文忠副主委要去"},{"start":7345.236,"end":7345.956,"text":"主動接觸然後他們邀請"},{"start":7372.025,"end":7398.618,"text":"那你認為受阻的機會大不大大因為你今天我們都還沒問你在記者問的時候你已經講要去歐洲了嘛那歐洲的國家有退伍軍人協會的齁我坦白講也沒那麼多啦大概可以算一算算的出來啦齁如果中共阻撓導致不能成行我覺得中國把自己這個大國做小了退伍軍人的交流你去阻礙什麼全世界的退伍軍人都是朋友嘛"},{"start":7399.663,"end":7416.129,"text":"所以我們到美國跟退伍軍人協會多好我們現在甚至於派了一位退伍的少將退伍的上校常駐華府那何必對歐洲這個部分老闆講請他們想得開當你會尊重別人的存在你這個國家才值得尊重所以目前你預估"},{"start":7417.159,"end":7417.179,"text":"參訓8人畢業7個"},{"start":7444.466,"end":7471.256,"text":"我辦了一個專案只有8個參加7個退伍而且只能去客運公司上班當時我們就提出來說行業這麼多我們的訓練太少經過2018年到現在2023到2024你的人數其實是一直跳躍是成長我給你們肯定那行業別我過去最不喜歡也不能接受就是誰說退伍軍人只能當保全退伍軍人很多專業"},{"start":7473.325,"end":7487.938,"text":"退伍軍人在軍中學的很多可以應用的所以你們到2022年開始應用在客運海運天然氣食品鋼鐵光電一直往下走這好事我現在只問一個問題你們這叫做產訓嘛所以2024年訓260人那產業就是說我要進到產業界他們的就業安排目前幾比幾"},{"start":7498.108,"end":7506.779,"text":"那個勞動部的救福中心會算每一個訓練出來的人有3個工作叫1比3有1.2個工作叫1比1.2你訓練出來的人大概有多少就業機會"},{"start":7509.008,"end":7515.014,"text":"稍微好好跟您報告就學界會處處長慈玉來呃針對您剛所追尋的問題我們的這個輔導會所推的產訓合作跟勞動部的方案是不一樣我們簡單來講我今天是這個跟了一個企業界已經找好了優質企業時間我簡單問你就是我先詢問找好的需求是找好的需求這邊虛工260我這邊就訓練260是你們是這樣作業的嗎"},{"start":7535.092,"end":7537.054,"text":"不是這樣子,因為他們會提出一個職缺的數量,那我們去推薦有意願報名的,我們就是經過他面試以後,他也同意了,我這個人數呢,他只要通過這個測驗,訓練合格,他一定要給我入局。"},{"start":7553.05,"end":7573.444,"text":"所以我把程序弄懂是你們變成要去拜訪公司行號是那我這邊需要5個員工分別需要光電機械類似這樣子是那你們就錄取這樣的人數來進行訓練訓練考核合格他一定要禁用我們推薦人數會比較多讓他先去做面試對所以應該會禁用比較多一點嘛大概幾比幾但是他的5"},{"start":7574.244,"end":7575.565,"text":"那他們聘用之後我們有沒有像過去給予每個月薪資補貼一萬"},{"start":7590.84,"end":7608.229,"text":"就是我們促進穩定就業津貼是他可以領領一年嗎對領一年你們有沒有追蹤一年後還在任的剛才我好像聽主委有講在任的還達到百分之八十幾我們的統計是就是一滿一年以後他還在繼續留任公司90.6390.63好這個我們繼續希望更精進讓我們的退伍軍人就業環境更好謝謝主委謝謝處長謝謝大委"},{"start":7635.866,"end":7653.249,"text":"呃我們在陳冠廷委員巡達後呢本會休息5分鐘現在進行巡達委員馮勝翰委員好請馮主委主委請委員好"},{"start":7670.192,"end":7672.095,"text":"第一次在國防外交委員會詢問"},{"start":7679.212,"end":7705.618,"text":"馮主委這幾個景點馮主委應該很熟悉這個清淨武陵福壽山這幾個都是退福會在經營的高山農場所以這幾年其實在舉辦櫻花祭其實我們看到其實相當成功所以現在二月底三月初櫻花剛好現在是櫻花的季節剛好盛開吸引非常非常多的遊客所以主委你知道這三大高山農場每年有多少遊客嗎"},{"start":7710.68,"end":7717.922,"text":"報告人176萬人這個清淨是86萬5042萬福壽山26萬這個在2023年總共是176萬其實人數非常多這個我去查了數據這三大農場加起來在這個數據上其實這個兩年的營收我們看到的數字是都破了10億元其實是很驚人的數字"},{"start":7737.046,"end":7764.683,"text":"所以這些高山農場其實它都在台灣非常重要的觀光的聖地其實當然也是退福會非常重要的資產主委同意嗎那主委你是不是知道這三大農場其實我們發現了它有很大的部分其實都位在這個所謂山崩跟地華的地殖民感區主委知不知道這個真的不十分清楚好主委那我這邊跟你說"},{"start":7768.398,"end":7786.865,"text":"這幾個三大高山農場在這些區域裏面那很多有些甚至是在大規模崩塌的潛勢區這大規模崩塌潛勢區不是我講的是農委會的水保署講的所以這都是相關的資料去套疊出來發現這三大農場都在這些區域裏面那也有在土石流潛勢區的"},{"start":7789.277,"end":7807.506,"text":"主委這並不是新聞這些都是我們剛剛看到的在經濟部的地質調查中心或者是農業部的水保署那其實網路上面都查得到也就是從這些資料的角度來看這些地方都是很可能會發生山崩土石流的地方主委從資料來看你同意嗎"},{"start":7808.892,"end":7829.95,"text":"統一對我們現在看到這些在地質上面比較脆弱的地區喔他其實從1950年代到現在那發展很多高山的農業包括果樹茶樹等等等其實我們都知道我們念過這個從國小國中大家都知道其實這些高山的農業其實很多對水土保持也是"},{"start":7830.691,"end":7831.011,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":7847.202,"end":7867.166,"text":"退伏會的三大高山農場其實處在一種先天不足他本來就在地質敏感甚至崩塌土石流潛勢的地方後天又失調因為他用了很多高山的農業他可能是超限利用的所以就保持是一個很大的衝擊在接下來剛剛說到遊客非常多176萬加起來三大農場所以這個主委"},{"start":7872.099,"end":7878.366,"text":"在風險相對高這麼多的狀況之下需要比較嚴格的防災的規範這位同不同意"},{"start":7879.807,"end":7902.796,"text":"同意嗎?那我們接下來就來看了退伏會其實不是沒有注意到這個問題我們現在看到相關的成果包括退伏會有做在這個地質敏感要做土地開發的時候要必須先做地質調查安全評估既有的舊建築也有進行耐震結構的補強然後也有定期派員來巡查各設施的邊坡這些事情我們看到"},{"start":7903.576,"end":7926.569,"text":"是有的所以這部分我們可以給予肯定可是主委我要跟你說其實我們對於防災其實最重要的幾個最重要的觀念跟環節第一個平時需要監測第二個需要預警第三個要有災害應變的SOP所以我現在看到我們這三大農場在這三方面其實是蠻弱的"},{"start":7929.045,"end":7947.596,"text":"主委這個三大我們在這個監測跟預警或者是災害應變我們目前做了什麼這幾個部分這個我這樣子回答您我們對於您這個報告我們回去做一個檢討是檢討完之後把書面報告呈現給您"},{"start":7951.22,"end":7952.581,"text":"作為我們改進的依據"},{"start":7968.849,"end":7993.348,"text":"但其實同樣類型的地質條件同樣類型的客觀條件其實比方我們看到有些前車之鑒像廬山溫泉就發生過很多次的土石流所以這是不能夠輕忽的問題所以各位我想現在先請教其實就我們現在就平時的監測的狀況我們目前看到的狀況我把我看到的找出來的資料客觀的呈現"},{"start":7995.148,"end":7999.4,"text":"現在這個退輔會只有每季的監測但沒有即時監測"},{"start":8001.24,"end":8029.368,"text":"但其實在這個地方我覺得恐怕是有必要進行即時監測的但現在農委會的水保局其實有針對雨量在做監測這部分不會做分工我覺得是很OK的事情但接下來就牽涉到獄警的問題我們跟農委會的水保局討論了如果發生了監測超標也就是危險的程度風險提高的時候他們目前通報的程序是什麼他們第一個通報地方政府第二個這個"},{"start":8032.122,"end":8032.462,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8051.689,"end":8070.425,"text":"主委我再跟你報告他們說為什麼沒有要通知退府會因為退府會沒有跟他們要求要請他們在這些資料上面提供警戒的資訊跟通知所以我的意思是說我知道前面有做的事情我知道退府會有做可是我們目前看起來這是三大"},{"start":8072.759,"end":8087.984,"text":"監測預警跟災害應變上面包括災害應變我們看到都非常非常的欠缺SOP就算應變上面我們只有看到你們在報告上面寫說我們會疏散遊客但到底該怎麼疏散尤其是當我遊客的數量大到剛剛這個程度的時候"},{"start":8089.964,"end":8114.389,"text":"這恐怕是要有一個疏散的計畫在做事前的規劃甚至是需要演練的部分我目前看到現在反而是退不回在這部分災害應變上面的我覺得意識真的是有所不足這是我想提醒主委的地方可以嗎對我列入改進好所以接下來一個事情我想要在最後一個地方再提醒我看到你們在報告這次今天的報告第19頁有寫到"},{"start":8116.93,"end":8144.207,"text":"提升服務品質﹑強化營運績效尤其是以生態保育﹑自然景觀與環境保護為主軸這是你們寫在報告裡面的那我剛剛除了災害的部分以外其實也想跟主委提醒一下接下來我們在這些高山農場的未來狀況我們很希望退輔會不要只以觀光的效益為考量其實恐怕你也應該要注意到包括水土保持這些問題所以當主委要注意到關注到水土保持的問題的時候"},{"start":8145.848,"end":8167.42,"text":"其實有很多專家一直這段時間從我們來到外交國防以後他們就來跟我們說很希望退輔會在我們高山農場的經營的時候不要破壞原生的植坯要盡量種台灣原生種的這些物種的作物比方說如果要櫻花那就是希望比較選擇像是我們的山櫻花"},{"start":8168.34,"end":8192.863,"text":"盡量保持原生的物種其實這對於接下來預防災害或氣候變遷其實都有很大的注意很大的效果這部分我也希望能夠提醒我們退輔會或者是我們這個楊處長然後在後續經營的時候應該用這個原則來思考才比較能夠符合你們在報告上面寫的這個主軸可以嗎謝謝委員好那我剛才在講的部分我可不可以請主委"},{"start":8193.604,"end":8195.685,"text":"陳冠廷委員 陳冠廷委員詢答結束後休息5分鐘"},{"start":8235.984,"end":8236.144,"text":"主席"},{"start":8249.318,"end":8267.915,"text":"委員好主委好主委謝謝這是我第一次在國防外交委員會執行對於退伍會我們退伍軍人的相關事務我們是全力去支持因為退伍軍人的權益對我國的國防其實也是很重要的"},{"start":8268.456,"end":8268.596,"text":"是的﹖"},{"start":8290.186,"end":8311.681,"text":"那主委根據你們的2024年1月的統計數字目前的農民的總數服役10年以上大概是31萬5千人左右那第二類的退除役的官兵是5萬7千人左右所以這兩個部分加起來大概是37萬多人也都是屬於退輔會照顧輔導的對象"},{"start":8315.185,"end":8335.895,"text":"那這31萬5千人的農民裡面有領月退的大概是10萬5千人那有15萬9千人是領一次性的退役金那我比較關心的是這些沒有領月退的農民生活狀態為何是否有追蹤有沒有來去討論說怎麼樣來去照顧後續的這個生活"},{"start":8340.408,"end":8360.44,"text":"這我喉嚨有一點啞我想請曹處長來給你回報委員好我是服務照顧處的處長針對這些不是領退休奉的農民那我們會對他們實施這個仿試那如果說有經濟上的一些弱勢我們會透過我們的一些資源的鏈結"},{"start":8361.701,"end":8361.721,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":8377.228,"end":8401.698,"text":"那如果用65歲作為農民的一個分界點的話65歲以上大概有4萬5千人65歲以下的是有16萬8千多位那65歲以下以現在我們國民的這種健康狀態來說的話其實是壯年那甚至有一些是青年有些年紀還比我輕那這個部分你們有落實輔導他們的就業需求嗎"},{"start":8407.867,"end":8432.313,"text":"委員好我是就學就業處處長池玉來跟您報告65歲以下就是我們的勞動人口所以我們在有16萬多裡面有9萬6千多他是有業就不需要暫時不需要我來輔導6萬多人是無業的我們優先要針對他這個無業的部分如果他有就業的需求其實我們有很多的作為第一個我們就是我們會他如果要工作"},{"start":8432.853,"end":8443.215,"text":"我們在他服役要準備離營的時候其實我們就會有一個借退官兵權益說明會的時候現場我就有一些就業廠商就可以做就業媒合那第二個他如果說退伍了新退15天以內其實我就會去做訪視確認他到底要就學執訓就業因為他們的年齡非常的年輕第一類的官兵也平均只有43歲第二類也只有26歲"},{"start":8458.658,"end":8484.548,"text":"他基本上在就學就業特別是就業上面他有佔的很高比例的一個需求那我們最主要就幫他就業那但是他要就什麼業呢我們就會給他適性憑良阿或諮商讓他知道他要從業的方向給他一個建議那個處長抱歉我打斷一下那個陳慧琳委員我們是不是讓馮主委下來一下換那個因為他現在沒聲音阿讓他下來一下讓我們讓那個還有哪一位"},{"start":8486.969,"end":8487.871,"text":"李文宗副主委請上"},{"start":8498.194,"end":8502.896,"text":"是 那我們剛剛講就是讓他有一個知道他比較適合去從業的方向然後我們輔導他去上工就是就業就業的時候我們還會給他促進穩定就業的津貼給他一年的補助讓他適應這個職場穩定的就業那就業以後如果他有創業的需求其實我們會給他創業貸款的利息補貼這些的作為其實這一年我們每一年都會輔導一萬多人"},{"start":8525.026,"end":8525.386,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8540.467,"end":8568.675,"text":"但是其實在我們的服務處裡面我們大概也是僱用農民非常多的一個地方那很多都比我還年輕那都是校級軍官退役所以說這一些農民或者是說有些是第二類退役的官兵那他們的能力跟他們的這個年齡其實都是還非常年少的所以在這樣的狀況之下我想要知道說這一些退役的這些軍官你們有沒有辦法提升輔導就業比例是結合過去的專業背景喔"},{"start":8569.255,"end":8587.836,"text":"因為我們現在看到包含輔導的就業的這些方案等等其實很少我們有看到直接跟他們過去所屬的能力有關有些有工程背景有些有通信有些甚至是已經念到博士對於這個政策上面也非常的熟悉我想知道你們這方面是怎麼樣處置"},{"start":8589.418,"end":8595.264,"text":"我跟委員報告我們從前年開始其實針對有在軍中有專技的就是您剛講的化工通這些有專業背景的人我們就是做一個專技的那個就業媒合也就是說他在退伍之前"},{"start":8605.213,"end":8614.961,"text":"大概退伍三個月他已經打報告準備要退伍我就會去找相關的化工通他在軍中的專長的人廠商一起來做求職求財的就業媒合那第一場試的一個媒合其實成效出媒率非常好高達90%那在去年我們在中南部也是做專業技術的一個就業媒合今年我們北中南還要再辦理專業技術的一個就業媒合活動"},{"start":8631.033,"end":8649.472,"text":"我們是希望說在軍中學習到的東西特別是跟科技技能相關的他能夠有機會進入這個民營機構其實我看到很多我們的軍官那曾經特別我有些在海軍服役的一些同事們那他們是在過去其實還有送給我出國留學"},{"start":8649.972,"end":8653.354,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":8667.484,"end":8694.391,"text":"委員我能不能給你做一點補充我給你幾個數字第一在這8年來我們在8年前大概我們一年推介榮民含二類那就會大概是將近6000人現在都是超過1萬多人這第一個數字那我再對照一個數字現在一年部隊退下來多少人大概是1萬6000人那我們一年推介是超過1萬人這是第一個"},{"start":8695.191,"end":8717.579,"text":"那第二次是剛談到穩定就業在以前在八年前就業三個月46%跑掉去年我們是就滿一年裡面只有九點幾%跑掉非常好很肯定第三個是你剛才講到非常重要的不好意思那個副主委這兩個部分我們現在謝謝副主委之後再麻煩書面上給我們一些"},{"start":8718.679,"end":8736.092,"text":"是那剛剛委員講到一個非常重要的就是部隊裡面的專業怎麼做我下個禮拜會跟市長討論這個非常重要就把他在軍中的所有的信念念的學校他的資歷怎麼能夠有效轉讓到外面去這個是下階段非常重要的工作"},{"start":8739.835,"end":8764.887,"text":"是要把過去的資產轉成民間的資產是非常重要的那最後一個問題其實是跟之前那個王定遠委員講的是比較類似關於退伍會跟這個派員駐美外跟其他的軍人團體的聯繫那我還是要快速講一下就是說透過強化跟美國退伍軍人的聯繫我是希望他能夠跨部會的原因是因為許多美國的退伍軍人其實是在參眾議院都有職位或者是在我們的地方"},{"start":8765.247,"end":8765.647,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":8793.093,"end":8805.678,"text":"我們的辦公室就是我們國防部的軍事代表團所提供的所以跟國防部跟外交部是密切的我們派系的目的其實在支持外交部跟國防部"},{"start":8806.118,"end":8806.859,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員兩位請回我們休息5分鐘繼續開會"},{"start":8836.58,"end":8838.144,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9205.094,"end":9233.968,"text":"好我們請官員就座我們準備恢復開會好我們休息結束恢復開會接下來進行詢問的委員是馬文君召委謝謝召委麻煩請主委馮主委主委你的聲音還可以啦他今天喉嚨剛才沒有聲音"},{"start":9237.941,"end":9253.614,"text":"主委早安好久不見沒關係待會事實的回答不過因為我們今天要探討的重點還是跟過去我們關注的大概的政策方向大概有一致可是有一些是需要我們做修正的在這裡邀請主委再"},{"start":9255.695,"end":9268.771,"text":"在可能在就這個部分我們再去加強或者再提供相關的資訊待會我們大概會探討的是這些不過在這裡還是要謝謝主委因為您是現在很多官員裡面少數敢言還有"},{"start":9271.534,"end":9272.415,"text":"感謝主委和國軍同袍"},{"start":9293.137,"end":9322.132,"text":"因為在業務報告裡面大概北榮列入了我們全球的最佳醫院其實這是非常不容易的所以可見當時我們在設立榮民醫院這樣子的一個主軸功能然後我們不斷的提供了非常多的人力資源非常優秀的相關的醫療這些條件所以讓北榮、中榮還有高雄"},{"start":9323.132,"end":9327.034,"text":"其實這幾個醫院其實都讓民眾非常的信任那也可以擠進全球的這樣子的一個250強的這樣的醫院其實非常不容易我們也希望我們退府會在很多的人力資源上面的運用也可以持續是依循這樣的方向因為除了照顧榮民以外其實他對所有全體國人其實相對的也會都會受到很多"},{"start":9352.345,"end":9372.433,"text":"的相關的照顧我覺得這個也是大家信任的原因那可是接下來我們要討論的是在2月的時候我們金船高雄岡山榮民之家這個委外廠商把100多名的兆福遠的年終獎金總共大概680多萬他就捲款潛逃到現在有聯絡上了嗎這個負責人"},{"start":9381.021,"end":9398.135,"text":"委員好 我是救援養護處長周英國 那目前就我所知那個負責人未姓女姓的負責人跟他先生目前是在國外那債權都是找到那個未姓他的先生的父親找到他父親來求取這個債權"},{"start":9399.244,"end":9403.145,"text":"那我現在想要請教的因為這個對很多造福員來說真的是非常的不公平我們現在的榮家有高達八成將近八成因為百分之七十九八成是委外的靠委外如果類似這樣的情況發生的時候其實是造成多數的局面包括這個案子他就是四書公司也好或者造福員也好榮家也好"},{"start":9427.051,"end":9438.909,"text":"還有包括我們自己我們所有我們退府會所以對我們來說其實非常重要我想請教一下當初這個因為我們現在是動用預備金嘛對不對"},{"start":9441.848,"end":9461.876,"text":"沒有我們是依照他原來他是年終獎金沒有發放那年終獎金會到這個廠商戶頭有關月份的薪資一月份二月份薪資都是在農家農家已經代位發放所以你是用呃代位發放的方式而不是用第二預備金不是不是你們有動用預備金嗎沒有沒有確定一下那現在"},{"start":9463.417,"end":9464.318,"text":"我來回答一下目前處理的狀況那目前這個已經委託一家公司來接手那這個到6月30號都是沒有問題的"},{"start":9487.981,"end":9514.297,"text":"那至於自救會那一方面就是委員關切的他已經向台南市政府已經提出申請運通已經交由一個顧問公司來辦理相關大量解雇的計畫以及個人的薪資計算等到台南市我收集完之後他會勞資雙方開始了解沒關係這個處置的過程還包括你後續的因為那個是追究的問題可是我在這裡想要請教的部分"},{"start":9515.456,"end":9536.252,"text":"這一個招標的案子到底是怎麼這是怎麼樣這個廠商到底是怎麼樣通過評選的因為我們是用最有力標嘛這一家廠商到底是怎麼樣通過評選的就本席得到的資料他是110年才成立這樣的照護公司110年喔他第一個案子就是我們的台我們的是台南農家是嗎"},{"start":9541.235,"end":9547.118,"text":"還是岡山是岡山人家他的第一個案子可是這一家公司他之前是做什麼的他是清潔割草割樹的"},{"start":9551.701,"end":9564.343,"text":"他居然在110年成立的時候他第一個案子就是我們的岡山榮家第二個案子就是最有力標裡面高達3億多的這個岡山榮家他的照護服務我們當時難道在他的服務品質還有他的標價基本能力專業能力這一些部分我們請來的專家他難道都沒有特別去注意這個部分嗎"},{"start":9580.106,"end":9591.473,"text":"因為在審核這個合格廠商的部分他的業務範圍也有人力這一段人力派遣這一段人力派遣他以前我剛剛已經講過了我相信你會比我更清楚他以前的工作也是做我們榮家的他是我們很重要的一個公司他都是做榮家他大部分我們可以看到這個土的那個標示他大部分都是做我們退府會的"},{"start":9606.101,"end":9610.025,"text":"那其他的工作就是清潔啊勞務派遣他的勞務派遣都是割草割樹啊他居然可以得到我們這個招標的案子而且還是最有利標這個還是經過專家審查的"},{"start":9621.536,"end":9625.58,"text":"所以這個部分我們在這裡請主委特別再查查清楚因為他不是只有後續的解決問題這個牽涉到我們有非常多的榮家他面臨的問題當你在決定這麼重要的工作的時候而且你幾乎80%都是靠委外人力的時候你居然選擇這樣的廠商他做了半年以後就跑了"},{"start":9646.019,"end":9646.159,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":9664.654,"end":9673.18,"text":"現在有BOT、ROT的方式對不對有台北、中章還有就是岡山剛剛我們提到的為什麼要BOT或ROT"},{"start":9677.748,"end":9701.748,"text":"因為我們想就是農家有一些空地或是說老舊設施希望藉由北中南我們選了三家農家來釋放這個公告希望說不管是BOT或ROT希望外面的廠商有興趣來投入原因是什麼投入就是我們希望在這個長照建立長照專區來共同來執行這個政府的政策"},{"start":9702.625,"end":9707.106,"text":"你只為了政府的政策你知道退輔會當初成立的目的還有榮家成立最大的目的是什麼嗎我們不是為了配合政策我們不是在衛福部底下的你當初成立的也不是為了營運跟賺錢最重要的是要安養照顧我們的榮民"},{"start":9724.511,"end":9727.854,"text":"雖然過去一代前一代的榮民他可能都是年長的或者以前的娃娃兵他可能是單親的可是我們不斷有新的榮民產生剛剛有委員提到現在都是年輕的那你怎麼樣讓現代新一代的榮民他的未來是可以相信政府可以對他有安養的照顧"},{"start":9746.249,"end":9750.611,"text":"你有這麼大的土地不是給財團去BOT或ROT一次釋出50年20年而是你有這麼大的土地你可以建置更好的一個環境比如說它是安養它不是全部都施治不是全部都是施能要靠完全照顧的"},{"start":9764.199,"end":9764.239,"text":"主席"},{"start":9781.055,"end":9801.61,"text":"退府會跟榮家成立的宗旨是要照顧榮民今天我們募兵已經非常困難了如果你今天有這麼好的一些條件你應該要與時俱進去想應該怎麼樣去做以後照顧榮民可以更吸引他們的一些方向而不是給財團有機課程謝謝謝謝委員主委處長請回接下來進行詢問的委員是"},{"start":9811.789,"end":9822.323,"text":"楊瓊英委員請一秒鐘就換人謝謝主席本席想邀請主委來 請"},{"start":9832.209,"end":9847.253,"text":"各位好,一百分的部長是我們有愛心的主委所以我們今天討論愛心的問題我們這個三家的榮業他們的困難你知道他們在哪裡嗎?人員不夠三班的戶併比怎麼解決?請教"},{"start":9858.82,"end":9859.14,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9880.276,"end":9884.16,"text":"你不是把它增加一個啊嚴肅的議題我們恢復來討論那這個護兵筆怎麼辦"},{"start":9890.1,"end":9912.756,"text":"報告委員我們現在都努力在調整薪資改善環境給他們好的氛圍好嗎?夠嗎?努力中但是其實臺北榮總跟其他榮總相對是在臺灣缺護理師的時候相對比較不缺的我們用心做嘛你相對不缺但是還是不夠鐘榮呢?"},{"start":9914.377,"end":9914.517,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":9931.96,"end":9953.669,"text":"護理師的離職率在中部世家醫學中心是最低的那但是還是少了一些我很為你們主委講話喔離職率最低我沒問這個問題我是說你的護病比是還差很多啊對不對還是不夠嗎好辛苦啊好辛苦喔好主委點頭了來我們那個南農呢"},{"start":9959.442,"end":9965.925,"text":"謝謝委員,我是高雄委員長陳慶順,謝謝委員關心這個議題,那護營筆其實在醫院裡面經營一直是一個大的問題,那我們持續在提升我們護理人員的怎麼提升?主委你注意聽喔,他怎麼提升啊?"},{"start":9975.089,"end":9995.239,"text":"那針對有三班的護理人員的話我自己提續近期之內也把他提續兩期你自己提續兩期其他兩個龍有嗎有有他們都有大家一起嘛不是你自己嘛是是是那也配合國家國家近期也幫忙做很多的這個資源進來"},{"start":9996.9,"end":10000.744,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":10012.737,"end":10041.556,"text":"所以行政院也體恤也認識到這個問題所以因此他們怎麼做呢他要把他護理人員的加班的這個部分怎麼加支援給他們但是現在吵吵鬧鬧還是不足所以我要特別請主委針對這樣子的一個情況你要立即趕快跟我們的行政院再提出確定是有困難因為三個龍不能拒絕病人"},{"start":10042.176,"end":10042.296,"text":"主席"},{"start":10063.393,"end":10091.094,"text":"會 會齁 積極爭取跟著委員的腳步前進不是跟著我的腳步是你要趕快積極爭取我想這個部分藍綠白大家都全力在支持因為真的我們之前才開過護理師公會我們也特別針對護理人員真的充分不足的情況之下到底點線面要怎麼樣去增加這個必須要好好的去研議嘛你把研議的方案也給本席好不好"},{"start":10091.374,"end":10120.282,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10121.642,"end":10148.81,"text":"來接下來我們進行詢答的委員是林益君委員那個沒有按下去就請馮主委來主委請林委員好"},{"start":10149.656,"end":10168.709,"text":"主委好你辛苦了主委你已經80歲的高齡從年輕的時候就開始擔任保家衛國的軍人一路從基層到擔任參謀總長國防部長你的一輩子都是為守護台灣人民的安全大家其實都是有目共睹"},{"start":10169.77,"end":10193.6,"text":"主委聽說你自稱大鵬希望能跟官兵建立很好的溝通不要關槍關吊的讓人覺得距離很遠希望能夠藉此聽到國軍官兵的聲音是不是是現在你在擔任退伍會主委的這個職位又必須擔任起照顧這些榮民弟兄還有退除役官兵的生計和健康照顧"},{"start":10194.48,"end":10201.305,"text":"更是不遺餘力盡心盡力你對國家的奉獻本席在此向你致上最深的敬意謝謝您"},{"start":10204.768,"end":10232.475,"text":"認真看了今天退伍會送來的業務報告發現了一些問題想跟主委就教本席來自花蓮花蓮有許多軍事要地和眷村所以對這些用生命在守護我們家園和保護國家人民的國軍弟兄們及退役的軍眷的福祉其實我也是特別的重視因此本席真的是希望退伍會能夠持續的進步好好的表現"},{"start":10233.655,"end":10254.559,"text":"本席想要請教大鵬主委本席因為長期在花蓮擔任社區藥局身份對榮民長輩的健康照顧特別的重視所以請教主委是否有統計目前全國有多少的榮民弟兄姊妹們在接受退伍會的救養照顧平均年齡大約幾歲好的我臣服這一個"},{"start":10263.933,"end":10264.353,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":10280.41,"end":10301.798,"text":"委員好我是救養養護署署長周星國那目前我們救養的農民大概是兩萬七千餘人那老一輩的住在各農家大概平均年齡都有84歲因為我們著重於大概就是老一輩對國家是有貢獻的那慢慢新一代的農民也進來了但是大概都是多數是年齡比較大的人申請救養"},{"start":10302.908,"end":10322.474,"text":"對,平均是不是年齡高達94歲到2022年已經上千人的都成為百歲人瑞了是嗎?這個是在我們那個30幾萬的農民裡面我們有1000多位是高齡百歲的好,那請問主委目前退伍會照顧這些農民弟兄的醫療人力及資源是否有充足呢?報告委員我們有金字塔的計畫所以他們除了在農家"},{"start":10331.499,"end":10331.819,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":10350.697,"end":10375.124,"text":"我接下來講在此本席首先先恭喜主委根據2024年全球最佳的醫院250強比中我們退伍會所屬的臺北榮民總醫院獲選第218名是全臺唯一入榜的醫院不只是我們臺灣的光榮也是在你領導之下和退伍會同仁一起努力的成果所以本席想要請問主委"},{"start":10377.164,"end":10383.007,"text":"請問主委你知道在臺北市首善之都臺北榮總現在目前有多少醫師嗎我請這個陳院長跟您打負比較精確報告委員到3月1號的新的報告我們現在醫師是1450位"},{"start":10403.217,"end":10403.998,"text":"臺北榮總是不是在花東地區是不是有鳳林、玉里和台東三個分院呢?"},{"start":10433.217,"end":10433.285,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":10434.551,"end":10441.715,"text":"目前有許多花東的鄉親還有花蓮的更多的鄉親向本席反映因為花東的醫院的醫生都嚴重的短缺大家都希望臺北榮總可以從總院派任醫師下去不用太久一到三個月也可以希望有持續的醫師資源一來可以提升北榮花東三個分院的醫療品質二來又可以讓花東地區的榮民和百姓們都可以免除為了就醫還要坐車勞動奔波之苦"},{"start":10463.908,"end":10466.292,"text":"那你主委你認為可行嗎?"},{"start":10470.673,"end":10498.379,"text":"報告委員我可不可以幫主委回答可以那其實我在鳳林待過兩年我下鄉從花蓮回來有特殊情感那現在花蓮的情況我們非常的清楚那可以解決嗎?可以可行嗎?甚至現在醫院裡面要生主之一是優秀的人員我說你先到花東去服務一兩年回來優先給你把守那這樣來鼓勵好人才到花東去但是在兒科的部分有一些困難現在台大跟榮總"},{"start":10499.059,"end":10526.229,"text":"主委醫師遭受兒科的醫師都受不滿少子化的關係所以這些我們是憂心忡忡可是那邊都是年紀大的阿是不是要派一些內科的醫師去呢那是不是比較符合需要呢對不對我們在花東的話是需要的話是一些比較能服務榮民的那是不是要內科的醫師那比較符合呢內科醫師有調派那骨科眼科這跟高齡有關係我們都有調派"},{"start":10526.829,"end":10545.991,"text":"那希望你們快點把這一個整個大概的書面寫出來看何時可以執行讓我們花東的醫療能夠非常的符合然後服務這些農民是好一定努力謝謝北溪在此要替我們花東民眾的醫療不足和就醫請命"},{"start":10550.731,"end":10556.615,"text":"接下來要請教主委一個民生的議題不知道主委你有沒有注意到臺電即將在4月調漲電價這個新聞呢"},{"start":10561.687,"end":10584.353,"text":"在新聞上播報有看到這次經濟部打算調漲電價主要是因為進口的天然氣價格太貴了既然講到天然氣大家都知道退伍會所屬的投資有15間的天然氣公司可以算是台灣非常重要的家用瓦斯供應的單位那我想要請問主委"},{"start":10585.453,"end":10590.157,"text":"未來這15家天然氣的公司會不會在經濟部調漲電價之後然後也跟著調漲天然氣的價格呢我們處長才去開過協調會我請他來報告好委員好我是事業管理處處長楊長正跟委員報告天然氣公司的售氣的價格是由主管機關經濟部來核定的我們不能隨便漲價"},{"start":10612.762,"end":10633.096,"text":"那天然氣公司好那如果不能隨便上架的話那承諾不上架那就記好你的承諾報告委員我後面還沒講完如果說中油調漲了天然氣我們也是按照主管機關的核定來調整如果說哪家天然氣公司違反這個規定他就要接受50或250萬元的罰款"},{"start":10647.52,"end":10662.626,"text":"請問退伍會目前所屬的是不是有16家榮民醫院跟16間的榮民之家那一般的如果醫療院所的用電量向來不是很低的話那請問主席那你是否掌握到這次電價如果一旦主席還是主委"},{"start":10663.526,"end":10667.029,"text":"主委,對不起,是否會增加榮業和農家的營運成本呢?會的會的嗎?好那老實說這些公營的機構其實要有相應的財務手段才能應付電價的波動過去兩年其實民生物價真的飆漲了生活非常的困難然後苦不堪言然後我也希望說對這些"},{"start":10688.604,"end":10699.563,"text":"若式的榮民們的生活其實是非常困難的希望我們花蓮真的有很多若式的榮民需要退府會這邊能夠好好的照顧及好好的關懷"},{"start":10701.052,"end":10718.903,"text":"可以嗎?可以嗎?主委可以嗎?我們盡全力!好!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝林益君委員!請回!好!主委請回!好!接下來進行訓導委員是鍾嘉斌委員!鍾嘉斌委員!鍾嘉斌委員不在!徐欣穎委員!徐欣穎委員!徐欣穎委員不在!接下來進行訓導委員是謝一鳳委員!時間4分鐘!"},{"start":10728.444,"end":10737.315,"text":"主席好,我想要請馮主委。來,馮主委請。他今天喉嚨沒有什麼聲音。所以呢?難道一個副主委上來聲音比較飽滿嗎?我還是盡量回答。來,請。"},{"start":10743.605,"end":10755.529,"text":"這是蠻好笑的主席謝謝你的建議主委現在大家都在點將你聲音沒有我就大聲一點大家都在點將那你覺得你有沒有機會續任主委我想應該讓給別人做一做因為國軍有很多優良的將領"},{"start":10771.748,"end":10790.092,"text":"主席點這樣,主席點說你旁邊那個副組委,你覺得勒?他是委員不符資格你直接給他打槍啊還是你有機會可以挑戰別個更大的位置呢?我可能不做慈祥"},{"start":10795.389,"end":10820.788,"text":"因為今天沒聲音嗎?不是,因為我已經高齡了,應該要讓,要致敬退嘛那你認為在你任內,對於退府會,你最驕傲的成績是什麼?你是不是說一下?最驕傲的成績是設定金字塔計畫,穩定榮民醫院分院,到榮家對於榮民的照顧"},{"start":10821.516,"end":10822.457,"text":"是的,我們已經容納1335位了"},{"start":10850.211,"end":10872.045,"text":"那我們既然有榮民醫院那是不是可以結合相關的畢竟長照或者是年長者的照顧都是台灣未來的趨勢那就這個部分520之前你可以做什麼樣的規劃這個我們持續開放榮家讓這一些有需要的"},{"start":10872.892,"end":10873.072,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10892.958,"end":10897.484,"text":"請問臺中農種也有到元榮共同協助地區醫院的醫療量能是不是未來有機會再結合農家"},{"start":10910.541,"end":10915.023,"text":"陳院長答覆之前我要先講現在臺中榮總遠距醫療是我們全國最大的"},{"start":10937.89,"end":10940.092,"text":"那如果遠距醫療呢或者是你們擅長的科就是說"},{"start":10966.329,"end":10969.231,"text":"報告委員在榮家都有設置甚至在偏鄉我們都有在設置都是可以做得到的"},{"start":10995.449,"end":11008.523,"text":"我們希望我們的臺中農總以及相關的農民總醫院都可以協助我們農家當然也希望能夠擴及其他鄰居地區的居民"},{"start":11009.944,"end":11035.217,"text":"好謝謝謝依鳳委員委員請回接下來進行詢答委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在吳思堯委員吳思堯委員吳思堯委員不在游浩委員游浩委員游浩委員不在"},{"start":11035.797,"end":11057.926,"text":"邱益穎委員．邱益穎委員．邱益穎委員不在蔡易瑜委員．蔡易瑜委員．蔡易瑜委員不在已登記質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日委員口頭質詢及未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者除已約定時間外請相關單位已書面"},{"start":11060.727,"end":11084.213,"text":"與兩週內提供那如果約定時間按照約定時間提供那本日會議到此結束大家辛苦了三位我代表工作人員還是羨慕你們17個月了然後另外你們人緣不錯今天很順利辛苦了謝謝"}]}},{"id":"15696","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15696","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea370e55bcfbb05b210a73ccf8a48a70923be8d109af184be48c741de11157c3325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-06","start_time":"2024-03-06T08:31:37+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-06T13:26:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":17663,"委員發言時間":"08:31:37 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宣讀上次會議議事錄二 邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就:「赴陸旅遊團停招．決策過程與後續影響評估．進行專題報告．並備質詢。．宣讀完畢接下來我來介紹一下在現場．對不起 馨玉妳說 妳要程序發言嗎"},{"start":2095.987,"end":2096.848,"text":"請新委員做程序發言"},{"start":2109.495,"end":2129.766,"text":"主席各位列席的官員在座各位委員以及我們各位媒體大家好本席在這裡想要針對我們在今天的陸委會的報告還有交通部的報告在昨天本席辦公室在昨天中午以前收到陸委會的報告"},{"start":2130.606,"end":2151.828,"text":"昨天下午下班前收到交通部的報告那本席在這裡發現這樣子實在太慢了今天早上9點的會議那但是報告呢我們的召委是在上個禮拜四就已經發出這個會議通知但是我們的報告卻在禮拜二的"},{"start":2153.208,"end":2178.735,"text":"一個接近中午一個接近下班才送達這個實在是太沒有效率而且行政機關實在是太寬鬆了所以在這裡我也很感慨我第8屆當任立委的時候我發現這個報告不僅早送而且內容是非常的紮實具體"},{"start":2180.502,"end":2198.31,"text":"我們現在發現這個行政單位的報告我們字體越放越大行距越來越寬頁數越來越少內容越來越空泛所以麻煩請讓我講完所以本席在這裡想要建議主席這個是程序問題"},{"start":2202.219,"end":2226.151,"text":"我現在講完,不然你聽我描述完,我的程序是想要提...我現在講重點啊,還沒3分鐘啊,所以我現在講重點,重點就是本席想要建議,想要建議是不是可以我們週一的這個議程,除了週一的議程以外,我們的這個"},{"start":2228.773,"end":2244.429,"text":"週三跟週四的這個議程的專題報告可以週三的可以在週一中午前送達週四的可以在週二中午前送達那也讓我們可以了解行政機關他們要報告的內容"},{"start":2246.952,"end":2267.089,"text":"那如果我隔天一早我就這個要開會結果你前一天到下班前才送來所以你是逼著委員全部要把行程排開那來讀你的報告那所以我們是不是可以請主席可以做出這樣的一個才事"},{"start":2269.67,"end":2272.192,"text":"請列席機關組準備書面資料於113年3月5號下班前送150份至本會"},{"start":2309.132,"end":2326.476,"text":"希望以後各部會能夠儘早來把我們的資料送達到各委員會的辦公室會比較妥當一點好不好我們也請這個議會人員我們會把這個會議記錄給記錄下來希望能夠更早一點可以吧可以可以"},{"start":2336.878,"end":2337.479,"text":"請問在場其他內政委員會委員會面見"},{"start":2348.049,"end":2360.574,"text":"好 等一下我們來休息一下然後讓我們因為 朝委是這樣子啦希望在場的委員們大家彼此互相尊重所以我來詢問一下大家的意見可以嗎 我們休息一下"},{"start":2650.694,"end":2670.075,"text":"好,我們非常謝謝信心委員也提出了這個問題點,的確我們有時候行政單位你們送的這個報告真的實在是太急促,因為你太急促的時候其實你讓委員還有辦公室委員辦公室的助理們要準備資料其實是有一點急促,但是呢我們也"},{"start":2670.936,"end":2691.783,"text":"我們也體恤我們的行政議會議的人員你們要把這個會議資料出去其實你們也要有一點時間所以我們就這樣子我們做一個折衷大家也都同意我們這一個禮拜或兩個禮拜看一下我們的這個行政官員們你們的態度然後後續如果你們還是這樣子的方式來這個因應我們委員會的話那麼我們就會再把此確定的時間把它寫上"},{"start":2700.126,"end":2702.508,"text":"許新穎委員、牛徐廷委員、吳祁銘委員、王美惠委員"},{"start":2724.038,"end":2734.368,"text":"蘇巧惠委員．黃潔委員．李博毅委員．現在我介紹一下一會的官員．大陸委員會主任委員．邱泰山．經濟處處長葉凱平．"},{"start":2750.202,"end":2755.306,"text":"交通部常務次長林國賢觀光署副署長"},{"start":2781.203,"end":2786.405,"text":"好我們現在繼續進行本日議程的報告事項請宣讀宣讀過了好我們接下來就請大陸委員會邱主任委員泰山來報告您今天的報告好像也是很短所以我還是給你4分鐘時間好了好不好好謝謝"},{"start":2812.781,"end":2826.867,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生、大家早成門、貴會邀請就這個赴陸旅遊團的停招、決策過程跟後續影響評估來做專題的報告那我們以下就涉及本會的業務進行"},{"start":2829.068,"end":2842.718,"text":"首先就暫停的這個決策過程呢那因為在疫情的一起呢那為了要守護國內的這個防疫安全呢那交通部呢他就在109年的1月22號跟3月18號跟隨後的這個記者會呢他們也這個喊請這個各旅行商業同業公會轉資所屬會員暫停組團赴陸旅遊"},{"start":2854.326,"end":2857.208,"text":"但是在議後經過跨部會的檢討之後為了要因應我們的防治COVID-19的特別條例在去年的7月1號就公告廢止所以"},{"start":2869.915,"end":2888.911,"text":"行政院就由跨部會主動研商就恢復兩岸觀光旅遊以及放寬入籍人士來台商務交流的相關規劃最後就由陸委會會同交通部在去年的8月24號對外公布我們依對等的原則"},{"start":2890.171,"end":2908.583,"text":"來處理恢復兩岸團體旅遊的事項上述規劃在政策上調整為只要陸方開放陸客旅行團來台我方將同步開放旅行社、組團、附陸主要考量疫情之前108年兩岸觀光消費已出現66億元逆渣"},{"start":2913.886,"end":2914.246,"text":"主席"},{"start":2937.875,"end":2962.867,"text":"去年11月交通部原本有規劃在今年春節前要宣布恢復赴陸旅遊的這樣的一個具體內容但是因為中國大陸契會就陸客旅行團來台進行安排日前又片面的宣布要改變503航路等一些作為考量整體的情勢不利於我國家利益以及陸方"},{"start":2963.667,"end":2983.702,"text":"事實上在過去這一年多又有新的相關的法制也造成國人赴陸會有人身安全風險的增加所以在沒有有效的機制或者是雙方的這樣的一個協商之下交通部就在2月7號對外宣布至3月1號起暫停來執行"},{"start":2987.325,"end":3000.804,"text":"那後續的推動跟影響評估那政府當然歡迎這個兩岸對等的這個開放觀光而非我單方面的解禁那關鍵的在兩岸同時做出這樣的一個開放那我們很遺憾的"},{"start":3002.486,"end":3026.691,"text":"看到中國大陸已經恢復他們的旅行社跟線上的旅遊也就是說中國公民可以出境旅遊但是總共有138個國家也包括港澳但是就是沒有台灣並沒有納入到今天為止還沒有納入名單此外我們正為了要釋出善意從去年的9月以後我們就開放第三地的"},{"start":3027.171,"end":3027.912,"text":"以上報告敬請指教"},{"start":3050.342,"end":3056.697,"text":"好 非常謝謝我們的邱主委的報告繼續我們要請這個交通部林常務次長國賢來報告一樣時間4分鐘時間 謝謝"},{"start":3061.86,"end":3078.213,"text":"謝謝召委主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生今天應邀到貴委員會就赴陸旅遊團停招、決策過程跟後續影響評估進行報告說明如何,敬請各位委員指教有關恢復兩岸旅遊的這個團體旅遊的規劃在兩岸團體旅遊的現況部分"},{"start":3083.497,"end":3106.44,"text":"陸方前一陣子稱因為兩岸關係,所以從108年8月1日起暫停來臺的自由行。疫情後,陸方也分批來恢復138個國家跟港澳出境團體的旅遊,但都沒有包含臺灣,所以目前團體旅遊來臺跟自由行還沒有開放。"},{"start":3107.72,"end":3119.364,"text":"2.以後我們從111年10月13日起開放組團赴國外及接待國外旅行社來臺,不含大陸及港澳地區。從111年11月1日開放港澳入出競團體來臺,"},{"start":3124.966,"end":3142.517,"text":"我方對恢復兩岸團體旅遊的規劃陸委會在去年8月24日會同交通部、經濟部公布恢復兩岸觀光旅遊及放寬入籍人士來臺商務交流及相關規劃有關恢復兩岸團體旅遊的規劃我方旅行業者組團互錄應該要依對等原則適度調控赴大陸人士"},{"start":3152.284,"end":3158.996,"text":"自宣布之日起．以一個月為準備期．並看陸方的回應來確定實施的日期"},{"start":3161.623,"end":3183.764,"text":"這個工作一直在準備我們從去年8月24號開始跟相關業者開始溝通是希望以對等循序恢復的方式來開放團客赴大陸的旅遊相關機關事實上準備工作也已經就緒原來交通部是規劃在今年的3月恢復國人互入的團體旅遊"},{"start":3185.715,"end":3203.691,"text":"但是這一段期間我們認為已經釋出善意可是陸方一直沒有開放來台旅遊第二個在這段期間又片面宣布改變M503等航路的運行方式這個是不善意的舉動損害了我國家的利益經過跨部位的協商"},{"start":3204.332,"end":3231.001,"text":"考慮這樣的情勢變更因此做了政策的調整本部觀光署依照權責請旅行業在113年2月7日起暫停來招攬赴陸的旅行團後續考量旅遊市場的實務操作因此我們有設了3個月的緩衝期對已經成團的在3月1日起到5月31日出發之間的都可以出團6月1日以後的"},{"start":3232.002,"end":3239.294,"text":"希望能併3-5月來成團或改往其他地區或國家旅遊或退會保障旅行業及民眾權益"},{"start":3241.754,"end":3261.382,"text":"後續為了推動恢復兩岸的團體旅遊,陸委會在8月14日所公布的相關規劃,事實上是對等循序漸進的,本部後續能配合來執行,這是政府的政策機會改變。但是,如果陸方在這段期間陸續釋出善意的話,我們也不排除提早來進行適當的調整。"},{"start":3265.586,"end":3272.538,"text":"市長不好意思我請你留息一下我覺得你今天報告剛剛我們入會主委的報告都沒有談到一些"},{"start":3273.956,"end":3299.294,"text":"二五零三的航路然後損害國家利益的部分反而是你觀光署次長在這邊宣布國家安全的部分不是您的業務範圍吧所以請你們除非說他們授權你們你們已經是這個但是就我知道你們今天禁止他們來不是因為國家的安全是因為你們的旅遊那個觀光旅行的第幾條來來來"},{"start":3301.596,"end":3301.696,"text":"主席"},{"start":3328.629,"end":3357.808,"text":"好 我們現在進行詢答委員的質詢前呢 原例做幾個 宣告每一位委員發言的時間本會的委員是8分鐘必要的時候我們延長兩分鐘好不好本會委員 非本會委員是8分鐘上午10點半截止發言登記然後臨時提案截止提出時間是10點然後在本會委員詢答完畢之後我們來處理臨時提案然後請問各位在場的同仁們有沒有意見"},{"start":3358.809,"end":3366.513,"text":"好沒有意見我們就開始我們今天的集訓我們請登記第一位的許新穎委員來做發言謝謝好"},{"start":3388.837,"end":3398.402,"text":"主席、在座各位官員、各位委員、各位媒體先進大家好本席有請陸委會邱主委邱主委邱委員好主委好首先本席還是要就剛剛我這個程序發言被民進黨委員打斷的我做個補充"},{"start":3413.646,"end":3433.434,"text":"我第8屆擔任立法委員我看到行政單位的報告都是非常充實的但是呢我們這兩次的會議我發現呢民進黨執政8年以來呢我們這個專案報告的文字呢越放越大字體越放越大行距越來越寬那這個頁數越來越少然後內容越來越空泛"},{"start":3441.892,"end":3444.975,"text":"今天我們陸委會提供的這個報告你有把題目放上去耶"},{"start":3464.744,"end":3470.226,"text":"那為什麼禮拜一的沒有放?今天有放題目禮拜一沒有放題目很明顯就是故意的嘛"},{"start":3485.367,"end":3485.587,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3500.972,"end":3512.743,"text":"禮拜一主要內容在海洋委員會,你沒放題目我只是點到,但今天你的行為就告訴大家你禮拜一故意不放。"},{"start":3518.666,"end":3537.521,"text":"今天我有很認真聽,雖然夜宿很少,但我很認真聽了這個主委的報告我們現在突然間宣布,這個停止組團到大陸去第一個理由,說是逆差,長期以來逆差嘛,那我覺得很好笑"},{"start":3538.462,"end":3562.091,"text":"我們政府民進黨政府執政你既然逆差你為什麼不想辦法去改變這個問題你為什麼不想辦法去邀請大陸團可以過來反而你是忽視還有損害民眾去大陸觀光的權益我們民進黨執政真的很有趣十一住行娛樂"},{"start":3563.531,"end":3564.492,"text":"M503航路運行的改變那也一樣啊"},{"start":3593.393,"end":3610.139,"text":"我們選出來的政府要做什麼?如果他改變,你有去溝通嗎?這就回答有或沒有,你有沒有去溝通?當然有啊,問題是他基於政治上的考量,想要干預到台灣的選舉。那很奇怪,為什麼馬政府時代的時候OK?其實馬政府時代那時候,他們也有一M503的航線。"},{"start":3619.242,"end":3635.958,"text":"那政府的時候他們談一談談好就可以這個他等於這個航線他就沒有沒有這樣改變他就取消啦所以這是不是表示出國民黨執政比民進黨執政能夠有效的溝通能夠為我們民眾帶來權益"},{"start":3638.7,"end":3643.084,"text":"反間諜法反間諜法那我現在要跟大家說很有趣的我們這個"},{"start":3662.264,"end":3683.037,"text":"中國大陸的反間諜法是在去年的7月1號就生效了可是我們政府呢在去年8月24號的時候你就宣布要開放啦奇怪了你那時候宣布要開放的時候你沒有發現反間諜法也生效了嗎現在來說反間諜法有意義嗎這是什麼邏輯神邏輯啊你這是神邏輯啊"},{"start":3687.119,"end":3690.601,"text":"反間諜法在去年7月1日生效民進黨政府在去年8月24日宣布開放那時候為什麼沒有反間諜法的疑慮"},{"start":3713.155,"end":3742.221,"text":"有啊 所以這個我們只能說民進黨執政你想做什麼就做什麼政策反覆好不好 政策反覆你不接受 那我想請問現在我們又有這個禁團令然後講到損害國家利益損害國家利益其實所謂的損害國家利益我不知道這個意思太含混啊"},{"start":3743.978,"end":3772.061,"text":"怎麼樣損害國家利益?我可以回答嗎?對,你可以回答。請簡要的回答。報告召委,我們是不是能夠好好把雙方急問急答?這是立法院職權行使法。你不用教我,現在我請你答你就答。韓院長跟周秘書長都講,雙方是共用這個時間。那我們尊重委員你有三分之二,我總該有三分之一的時間吧。"},{"start":3772.281,"end":3798.605,"text":"沒有這個質詢我沒有我沒有質詢暫停一下暫停時間暫停時間暫停給主席才是所以我不好意思我們希望基於尊重的原則我也希望尊重如果我們委員沒有請您回答的時候他一定會給你時間回答如果不給他時間我們來也是來跟他溝通好不好所以在他們說話當中我們期待不要這樣子我也在"},{"start":3799.165,"end":3802.986,"text":"我們不要打斷人家的說話我們這是最基本的禮貌好不好他現在讓他現在讓你回答你就就他問他問你的問題你回答好嗎好我們來就是針對問題回答第一個你什麼神邏輯第一個你剛剛講到說兩岸的這種協商那馬政府是不是會比較協商這個不是我的問題請站起來我是問說"},{"start":3825.052,"end":3827.094,"text":"我沒給你那麼多時間我已經講了你今天你見別法這是"},{"start":3840.323,"end":3858.679,"text":"你都問我的最少5個題目沒有我剛剛在闡述所以你不要浪費我時間所以反鑑別法這是什麼神邏輯你時間一個7月1號就生效你8月的時候那時候OK現在不OK這都是你民進黨政府在講這第一個第二個忍耐國家利益"},{"start":3858.939,"end":3860.82,"text":"又是怎麼樣損害國家,就這兩個問題,好,給你30秒,請檢答。"},{"start":3878.965,"end":3894.874,"text":"包括這個去年年底都有所以我們當然觀察到他開始對國人在大陸的人身安全開始有一些逮捕各位都知道好幾個人不是 這不要理你 請暫停所以我說法律的制定我們就是觀察他到底怎麼樣在執行對國人的境外風險有多少當然我們經過這半年多的這樣的觀察發覺他的風險提高"},{"start":3906.281,"end":3926.335,"text":"他還制定了保守國家機密法任何人只要談到眾矢不涉及國家安全公務上的機密都會請暫停請暫停第二個你剛剛不是講說侵害我們的利益嗎不是你利益的時間沒有用到我們國內觀光業者如果今天我們單方面過去我們讓他們對方賺了800多億那我們國內的業者要去賺哪裡的錢"},{"start":3930.818,"end":3958.306,"text":"所以我就說嘛之前你為什麼不想辦法你為什麼 喔 請暫停 請暫停我們雙方都有來禮會跟台禮會雙方都表達過我們也讓他的彩線團來台灣的好啦 請暫停你剛剛講喔你叫我回答到底有沒有損害國家利益嘛我就回答你這個問題所以我現在要告訴你啊你現在 你說的要照顧觀光業者因為我剩下兩分鐘你說要照顧觀光業者"},{"start":3958.846,"end":3977.506,"text":"但是你們當初這個公佈就是112年去年8月24號陸委會的新聞稿你就已經講這個規劃你規劃你也沒有說到欸只要什麼什麼你今天只要什麼開放的時間點就是他開放的時間點你就是很含混嘛你就是很含混沒有含混你又不行"},{"start":3981.71,"end":3999.764,"text":"結果你說不行以後你現在又3月1號到5月的又可以那我問你人家已經準備好六七八月基本你應該也知道我們的旅遊旺季絕對是六七八月當你去年一宣布之後你知道業者有多少他們"},{"start":4000.484,"end":4000.804,"text":"那我要問你"},{"start":4021.426,"end":4034.38,"text":"今天我們的題目是你的決策過程跟後續影響評估今天你這個決策下去你有沒有考慮到我們民間的這種損失這個損失你有要賠償他們嗎?"},{"start":4035.922,"end":4041.387,"text":"交通部不是已經回答了嗎?交通部不是已經回答你了嗎?完全沒有提到委員我先告訴你們兩岸條例的儲管機關是我們但是還有目的事業儲管機關目的事業儲管機關 剛剛提到了所以現在我們最明顯快到就是部委會、陸委會"},{"start":4059.804,"end":4075.673,"text":"交通部就找我們觀光署他們怎麼補救的措施啊他剛剛不是報告了嗎所以民間的你要考慮嘛所以你要考慮民間國內的業者啊對啊所以今天民間的應該赴陸大陸"},{"start":4077.734,"end":4078.135,"text":"委員我們的諮詢時間已經到了謝謝"},{"start":4095.635,"end":4117.291,"text":"謝謝信任委員謝謝主委我在這裡強調一下我們希望我們彼此尊重當委員在說話的時候請官員就不要回應因為你們這樣一回應其實第一會打斷委員的思路第二個也會影響到我們收音然後媒體們要拍攝錄影的一些"},{"start":4118.132,"end":4120.973,"text":"第二位蘇巧慧委員質詢謝謝謝謝主席我們請邱三山主委還有我們林次長我們請邱主委還有次長謝謝"},{"start":4147.658,"end":4175.924,"text":"主委好 請邱主委先我們今天的題目其實是這個赴陸旅遊團停招其實就是禁止組團赴中旅遊這件事情對台灣社會想要了解這個前因後果和未來的影響那我在不管是陸委會的報告還是交通部的報告裡面其實都看到大家提到的是兩個原因第一個的話當然是基於平等原則之下的國家利益要平等要對等"},{"start":4176.804,"end":4193.239,"text":"所以如果中國這邊不開台灣這邊當然也就不開不然兩邊產值這個差太多這個不符合國家利益今天如果不是中國放在其他國家我相信我們也是用同樣的道理來面對國家的利益這樣對嗎對這是第一點嘛但是你第二點其實提到的是M503航線的變動是等於是在我們想要它"},{"start":4200.926,"end":4206.513,"text":"開放中國赴中國團之後我們其實本來喔你當時在開的時候你就有加一個但書嘛如果對方有同等善意的話那我們要開嘛當時的決定是這樣子好結果在這個過程當中我自己看嘛大家都可以查新聞嘛包括諾魯斷交嘛"},{"start":4218.588,"end":4245.137,"text":"包括最後這個M503航線變動等於在我的看法是最後一根稻草啦好可是我想問的是說請問陸委會在這個中國觀光業對我開放的態度對我們不平等這是其一M503就是航線變動這是第二這兩個原因哪一個原因是今天台灣不開放附中團的"},{"start":4246.497,"end":4266.365,"text":"比較重要的原因哪一個我想基本上不對等這個是一個基本的原因壓倒的最後一根稻草就是M501所以是前面不對等比較重要還是最後一根稻草比較有用我們是要照顧我們國內業者的利益啊所以你的意義前面那個比較重要"},{"start":4267.827,"end":4269.387,"text":"我認為M503航線的變動其實它是一個看不見的利益我們今天在討論觀光業沒有辦法附中沒有辦法組團附中對對台灣的影響當然很大"},{"start":4294.394,"end":4294.634,"text":"﹚立法院議員"},{"start":4324.494,"end":4325.094,"text":"講到觀光有9次M503只有一次"},{"start":4340.405,"end":4359.599,"text":"現在給你時間 主委M503的變動對台灣的國安、非安影響到底有多大第一個所有M503或者說所有的航線其實都是交通部他們組長的那各位都知道有一個IQ 國際民航組織所有的航線的變動那基本上都涉及到"},{"start":4360.319,"end":4360.459,"text":"主委 這一張圖"},{"start":4375.196,"end":4386.862,"text":"第二點因為他不是只有M503而已他又宣布了三條航線是東西向的W123、W122和W121嘛對那這個都會增加所有的那個是可以從中國機飛機往各個方向飛過來了耶那這專業的部分是啊"},{"start":4391.525,"end":4413.281,"text":"民安局他可以講,甚至涉及到國安,因為我們的國防部他所有的軍機,他都會對應所有增加的這樣的一個航次航班都會影響到,特別是他又不願意按照具有的默契在往前移,所以我們的反制的時間點就會被壓縮"},{"start":4414.002,"end":4414.562,"text":"從2007年的時候那時候是陳水扁總統的時代"},{"start":4440.931,"end":4448.796,"text":"中國就想要設置M503可是那個時候我們是透過外交途徑把它給擋掉了嘛這是2007年是真正擋掉2015年剛剛在說馬英九失敗的時候沒有喔我們是從沒有M503在馬英九總統的時期"},{"start":4458.542,"end":4465.748,"text":"是!對啦!他沒有去協商啦!協商之後是什麼?M-03還是畫啦!只是畫偏一點點!就這樣嘛!但是從無到有!M-03就是在2015年畫下去的啊!好!那現在2018年,我們曾經說中國又要開始片面宣佈要靠近金門,又要把這條線要打開,又要把它再拉過來了。2018年的時候嘛,那我們那時候做什麼?我們是用"},{"start":4482.722,"end":4486.623,"text":"那個時候他們要從就是剛剛說的嘛W123要從中國飛飛機過來台灣那個時候因為時間點剛好是春節包機所以他們有這個東方航空、廈門航空要飛過來所以我們可以用準博的博把它擋回去嘛對不對但現在2024年的現在有飛機要飛過來嗎其實坦白講也沒有啊因為入客根本不來啊"},{"start":4507.228,"end":4507.268,"text":"這條事這麼嚴重"},{"start":4524.141,"end":4549.581,"text":"這麼大的國安事件只是因為他不是因為跟個人相關他是跟我們台灣整體國家相關看不到摸不到但如此做到你立委會怎麼沒有用相同的量能去向國人來解釋M503航線被騙面騙更就是中國再一次把航線圖調出來中國再一次往我們的中線靠近這跟驚嚇海域衝突事件親盟打轟有什麼不一樣"},{"start":4550.982,"end":4555.705,"text":"不是一樣的道理嗎?所以最後一根稻草很重,它不是稻草而已啊!所以中國對台灣的態度到底是什麼?其實應該要看得很清楚,我覺得陸委會這要給我講講啦!好!委員的指教我們會來加強啦!事實上我們在前幾個禮拜的這個例行的記者會,我們大概都有提到是啊!但是我們想說"},{"start":4578.677,"end":4592.342,"text":"關關講得比較多啦這是我的意見請主委參考我認為應該要多講一點看不到摸不到但是守護台灣重要的事情還是應該讓國人了解那接下來我們要講看得到的關關的部分請林次"},{"start":4594.363,"end":4614.914,"text":"我們來講觀光觀光好了剛剛有說我們基於平等的部分順差跟逆差的部分大家都已經清楚了那我想請教我們現在台灣有多少間旅行社如果因為禁止附中團的話那其實受到重大衝擊的應該就是以中國為主要業務的旅行團"},{"start":4615.734,"end":4620.598,"text":"目前旅行社根據觀光署的統計大概4038家那您提到了超過50%以上做大陸旅遊的大概有404家大概10%不到"},{"start":4639.753,"end":4658.523,"text":"10%不到但它的業績、營業額受到的影響你們有評估嗎去應該用2019年估啦2019年疫情前要用疫情前估啦疫情前去是大概805億的消費我們去那他們來是739億好"},{"start":4661.929,"end":4687.815,"text":"市長我是這樣覺得我們守護台灣安全全國一體一制所以大家往這個方向前進但如果受到損害的個人我們當然應該要協助與保障嘛今天是在全體旅遊業者裡面的你說一成對大概一成左右還是不到一成差不多一成左右大概一成左右有受到影響而且他的業務我們是用50%計算表示不是全部嘛對他還跟中南亞、歐洲"},{"start":4690.796,"end":4691.457,"text":"現在我們國家有多少的"},{"start":4707.632,"end":4726.696,"text":"委員會措施可以協助這個業者老實講我現在看到的因為疫情紓困的這個措施已經落日了嘛所以補貼營運負擔薪資員工這些大概都沒有了現在的話是疫後有一個加速擴大吸引國際觀光客方案請問這個在經營附中團的業者可以用到嗎不行吧"},{"start":4729.676,"end":4731.197,"text":"旅行業者他可以做出境跟入境兩邊都可以選擇"},{"start":4746.246,"end":4746.546,"text":"我們跟觀光署來討論"},{"start":4776.55,"end":4776.974,"text":"主席"},{"start":4779.309,"end":4806.359,"text":"謝謝巧惠委員這個就是我剛剛說的交通部和觀光署你們今天好像在這個會議紀錄裡面都沒有談到這個部分你們好像是你們的權責不是你們一樣所以呢剛好巧惠委員提出這個問題你們才做說明以後我們希望你們也把你們的報告按照你們的權責還有按照你們的這個可以怎麼樣解決的問題也寫上來今天交通部觀光署我們都看不到"},{"start":4807.315,"end":4807.875,"text":"有請主委、有請次長,謝謝"},{"start":4834.448,"end":4849.458,"text":"主委早安啊這個先請教你一個問題請問主委是否同意啊兩岸的交流應該要維持對等互利尊重兩岸在談判跟協商的過程中要避免我方讓利更不能熱臉貼冷屁股這樣的敘述你同意嗎"},{"start":4850.859,"end":4866.395,"text":"呃基本上平等互惠應該是一個最基本的原則啦大家都朝這個目標在追求因為我剛剛聽你回答蘇巧慧委員質詢的時候你也講對等是很重要的這一點本席完全同意核先序名第二個問題我想請教一下交通部的次長交通部的次長這個"},{"start":4870.031,"end":4889.481,"text":"去年7月1號開始研議恢復兩岸的觀光旅遊那8月24號是做了對外的公佈依對等的原則對不對也有講對等原則處理兩岸的團體旅遊事務那在你的報告裡也有寫有一個月的準備期嘛對不對這個有沒有錯我跟你做一下先做一下確認沒有問題沒有問題好那再換回主委謝謝"},{"start":4892.349,"end":4917.743,"text":"所以我們今天要談這件事情是這樣因為這個案子一度本來覺得蠻順利的也可以給旅行業多一點的空間但後來突然峰迴路轉那決策中間的反覆其實造成了旅行業很大的一個傷害所以我覺得我們今天在這個這個內政委員會我們當然要提出質詢去了解過程那更重要的是檢討本案的一些疏失有沒有對等我想這是非常重要的一個題目我先請問一下這個"},{"start":4919.364,"end":4922.929,"text":"我們過去陸委會跟對岸溝通的管道有哪些?"},{"start":4924.232,"end":4952.759,"text":"基本上是這樣大概兩岸過去這30幾年來不只是有很多的個案也簽了大概26項的這樣的一個協議那這個協議涵蓋了包括觀光旅遊什麼等等都有那這裡面的協議裡面就建立了一個所謂這個相互溝通的一個機制這機制大概分三個面向第一個平時這個資訊上的提供第二個發生個案上的處理第三個大概政策性的探討"},{"start":4953.619,"end":4956.141,"text":"另外因為我們就觀光的部分我們在北京有所謂的臺旅會臺灣旅行的這些大陸在我們這邊有海旅會"},{"start":4977.378,"end":4980.699,"text":"請問有沒有做具體的溝通?有沒有具體的成果?"},{"start":4992.903,"end":5014.864,"text":"基本上都有透過所謂雙方的這個這個所謂的窗口做了表達什麼樣的窗口是你從你陸委會溝通嗎還是從其他單位溝通就是我剛剛提到了就是所有的協議都有他的所謂的從你陸委會的這個管道我們當然會大概都知道政策當討論完了之後就會有所謂業務執行單位"},{"start":5016.505,"end":5021.47,"text":"我剛剛不是提到嗎?雙方都有幾個管道,包括台旅會。所以是透過台旅會這個管道嗎?還是透過海基會呢?還是透過哪一個管道?您提到了,其實有很多的管道。"},{"start":5038.268,"end":5063.607,"text":"只是協議有協議的那陸委會有沒有掌握這些管道溝通的進度跟成果應該你要掌握嘛對不對因為你等於是整個兩岸主管機關嘛他們會回報對岸的態度包括我們的委員也很熱心啦我們右委員他們也會去大家也會監督什麼所以有管道對不對然後你有掌握嘛我從你剛剛答詢裡面整理出來的答案是這樣對不對我們簡單一點就好啦因為大家時間有限好不好"},{"start":5064.147,"end":5089.495,"text":"那根據交通部的報告因為你8月24號宣布嘛有一個月的準備期間對不對那為什麼要講一個月的準備期間其實就是要看這中間中國大陸對我們有沒有善意的回應嘛這是其中之一這是其中之一對不對那差不多就是一個月9月24號的時候有具體的回應嗎也就是從他們的各種管道你剛剛講的因為你有掌握嘛各種管道裡面是有得到說他們的人也會對等開放嗎有得到這樣的回覆嗎"},{"start":5090.015,"end":5117.711,"text":"基本上他們是要認為說現在這個時間點不願意談這個問題所以你其實得到的是不宜嘛 對不對不是 不願意在這個時間點上面那我想主要應該涉及到他們內部的整體政治情勢的評估啦我們的揣測啦那問題就來了嘛剛剛我們講說兩岸的談判跟協商不能單方面讓利嘛尤其是不能我們讓利嘛因為要對等尊重嘛那9月的時候其實你就已經掌握對方沒有打算要開"},{"start":5118.692,"end":5131.302,"text":"那為什麼不再早一點就這個政策我們就喊停呢他有沒有打算我不曉得但是他是現在沒有要談這個議題他說沒有要談這個議題對那為什麼是因為雙方有政治的情勢我們有選舉嘛"},{"start":5134.344,"end":5149.39,"text":"阿他們有他們內部的問題嗎?所以其實9月24號沒有明確的回覆我現在修正可以對不對?沒有明確的回覆好你就繼續但是阿10月25的時候阿國台辦的這個朱鳳聯開的記者會嘛因為這個我們的交通部長王國才說"},{"start":5150.83,"end":5164.662,"text":"這個按照評估啊今年大概是沒有忘了大陸團客是不會來了那要看明年的機會那國台辦直接就直接也就嗆了說這個有僵局僵局就是因為民進黨執政對不對這個當然是當然是對我們來講是很不禮貌嘛對不對但是這個客觀上來說他其實釋出了一個訊號嘛什麼樣的訊號就是不愉快嘛"},{"start":5173.468,"end":5193.92,"text":"你剛剛講從8月到9月對不對8月到9月的時候是不明確可是10月25我覺得這是不友善喔人家已經有點欺負我們了對不對對不對民進黨喜歡講說對方是欺負我們對不對現在10月25號就已經很明確的訊息說他對這個事情是很不滿意的是負面的東西訊息出來的時候那為什麼那個時候我們沒有喊停呢"},{"start":5195.066,"end":5221.082,"text":"為什麼那個時候我們就不喊停他們確定不來了那我們當然要緩議啊對不對為什麼沒有呢是不是請我也說明一下對啊我想基本上他們所說到的這樣的用語啊其實政治上的解讀就很簡單嘛就不友善嘛不是不友善而已不是不友善喔人家就說不是只有不友善不是只有不友善而是說我們都很清楚台灣正在進行什麼"},{"start":5222.837,"end":5226.52,"text":"總統大選總統大選所以老共他在操作啊他不是公開的對外說期待能夠跟他們所謂的相同這樣的一個政治立場的人當選嗎"},{"start":5244.253,"end":5257.759,"text":"問題是他跟你講他講說民進黨是談判僵局的障礙的時候在執行政策的角度執行政策的角度的時候按照民進黨的你當然應該基於對等嘛你是不是那個時候政策就要喊停"},{"start":5258.579,"end":5271.55,"text":"沒有沒有沒有我講基本上基本上商業上我們認為商業上的對等是可以撇開政治的只是他自己這個時候又要撇開政治我覺得蠻奇怪的啦那我們期待他自己能夠看到兩岸的經貿"},{"start":5275.073,"end":5297.683,"text":"主委你剛剛講很多啦你剛剛講到選舉我也是蠻可以理解的因為11月3號還有啊11月3號交通部在答詢的時候答那時候那個游玉蘭前委員的質詢的時候說即便有不好的訊息我們還是3月要開放因為我們要考慮旅行業的生計主委我今天要把這個中區來龍去脈去做一個還原就是因為我們很擔心啊"},{"start":5298.683,"end":5321.623,"text":"你當初第一個開宗明義我們就講這個東西不能單方面讓利我們不能熱臉貼冷屁股可是講到現在這個溝通管道不清楚談判過程不對等政策又不連貫我覺得這個是要檢討的我剛剛提到溝通管道沒有所謂不清楚啊剛剛不是講了有那麼多的我剛剛問你哪一條管道你就說你沒有很多管道溝通的結果他們態度不清楚啊"},{"start":5321.803,"end":5341.997,"text":"重點是不對等嘛人家很早就講他不來了很早就講他不來的時候我們還開放是不是就變成逆差那我們是不是就熱臉貼冷屁股這是不對的嘛我們都希望對等啊那為什麼9月10月有不好的訊息的時候你那個時候喊停是不是不會衝擊旅行業9月10月應該不是要不好而是要不明的訊息"},{"start":5342.597,"end":5368.968,"text":"阿10月25就講你們是將軍不會來講不會來了餒對不對那就是一個負面的訊息嘛你如果講9月不明我接受10月是負面嘛就表示狀況不好你這個政策為什麼不那個時候喊停呢你那個時候喊停的時候大家比較不會有意見為什麼你踩穩了我們的立場也維持了對等的原則大家是不是相對來說沒話說可是基於旅行業生計也很重要所以你還是要做"},{"start":5369.668,"end":5387.779,"text":"那我也可以理解就像你講的有的時候我們丟開政治有的時候丟開政策對你剛講的很好那是交通部的評估交通部的立場可是你陸委會的立場難道不應該守住嗎對啊所以我們有表達所以結論是你聽了交通部的建議我們認為這是一個純經貿的議題不需要跟政治第二個"},{"start":5391.761,"end":5400.925,"text":"這個時候你又不願意去對等,我覺得很奇怪你不要講什麼藍白河,這是事實啊不要打北鎖問好不好今天大家都沒有扯到其他的事情我們就陸客團這件事在做討論,不要轉移焦點好不好沒有轉移焦點,這個就是攪和在一起的嘛"},{"start":5413.211,"end":5427.102,"text":"所以到了11月然後後來到最後才喊停那段問題就很嚴重嘛你前面的政策反反覆覆不連貫而且在談判的時候沒有踩穩對等的立場這一點本是最嚴重的問題談判怎麼沒有踩穩對等立場啊人家後來你還要來你這樣熱點貼人家冷屁股啊對不對所以我們考量我請還有20秒我請一下交通部啦我也有問題要問交通部啦"},{"start":5436.138,"end":5464.91,"text":"委員好這個喔既然這件事情已經變成這樣了不是很愉快了主委休息一下啦沒關係啦齁這個事情既然已經不太愉快了那至少要善後嘛你的報告來得很晚講得也不清楚我覺得不只是這個你剛剛講的時候我可以提前一部分出團這叫做盡量的亡羊補牢這我可以理解可是還是有很多的旅行業者在這個過程中受到了利益的損失嘛我們國家的信賴保護原則政策發布之後不執行本身就是一件很大的問題嘛"},{"start":5466.01,"end":5483.565,"text":"對不對那這件事情難道不值得進行補償嗎難道不覺得應該為旅行業的寒冬做一些紓困嗎以及第三個更重要的既然這樣子的跨國旅遊有問題我們的國旅難道不應該加強嗎提醒一下藉這個機會提醒一下"},{"start":5484.545,"end":5485.285,"text":"馬上請相關工作人員提資料給林委員"},{"start":5511.235,"end":5518.537,"text":"繼續我們請張宏祿委員來質詢我們請這個女委員來幫主席帶領一下主席好 謝謝來我請我們陸委會邱主委還有我們交通部林次長張委員好"},{"start":5550.296,"end":5558.941,"text":"其實一般的國家跟國家在談不管是行權、不管是經貿、不管是什麼最重要的是不是就是要對等"},{"start":5560.083,"end":5586.625,"text":"這是基本上國際經貿大家期待的原則啦不不不主委應該不是期待的原則阿應該是普世的原則普世的價值才對吧對啦對我說的是一般的國際上嘛對不對對所以阿我們在跟中國阿我們要談阿不管我們的旅遊或什麼的其實最主要的還是要對等吧我們不能矮人一傑阿是不是"},{"start":5587.785,"end":5588.626,"text":"所以在對等的前提之下也要"},{"start":5612.514,"end":5633.426,"text":"也要保護我們本國的各行各業的產業吧這個是最基本吧我想這個所有政府部門經貿部門包括觀光部門都是採取這樣的一個原則跟態度對嘛我們在跟美國跟全世界各個國家我們不管在談任何經貿什麼的大家都是要對等啊"},{"start":5633.766,"end":5634.106,"text":"所以回到來了"},{"start":5662.425,"end":5672.174,"text":"這個能不能夠跟中國這一個我們開放團體課我想請問一下那個次長我手頭上的資料"},{"start":5673.841,"end":5692.956,"text":"如果啦中國不開放入客來台灣的話我們一年的損失是739億是不是這是2019年的標準疫情前的標準疫情前的標準嘛對不對所以如果他們沒有開放來我們台灣一年損失就是739億對不對對"},{"start":5695.518,"end":5710.773,"text":"沒錯嘛等於沒有開放團客國內相關的旅行、交通、食宿、餐飲、購物都會相關的影響就等於不會有這個消費對嘛阿我說這個金額就是739億對不對對以當初的水準是"},{"start":5713.576,"end":5738.214,"text":"對嘛齁那以現在來講應該更多嘛齁這個啊什麼都有都有長的情況所以我覺得你我們不如果中國不開放他他們的團客來我們開放我們的團客去我們一年損失739億次長如果你們做了這個決定會不會有台灣很多的本土的業者餐飲業者民宿業者等等的會不會上街抗議"},{"start":5739.595,"end":5763.778,"text":"會不會找你們會不會抗議跟委員報告確實您提的是重點我們在處理觀光業者的時候有出境跟入境那您提的這個是我們一方面要考慮出境業者我們叫歐邦歐邦業者的權益一方面也要考慮國內本土旅遊業者相關的生計所以我們也得考慮說大陸如果不開放的話對本土業者是傷害的"},{"start":5764.498,"end":5786.222,"text":"對啦,除了對我們的本土業者,這一些我們在本土所有觀光餐飲的這一些接待、入客團體這些是一個傷害之外這也是我們跟對岸要談判的一個籌碼啊,對不對?我們要保護我們的業者,這是一個很合情合理,全世界都同一個標準嘛"},{"start":5786.522,"end":5811.403,"text":"我們其實是希望兩岸對等開放啦所以從去年8月24號開始就一直希望是釋出這樣的善意以後陸方也能夠對等然後回應要不要開放陸團客來台這個我們都知道嘛這個我們希望對等談話我剛一開始就講了嘛我們也沒有說不開放嘛現在是中國不開放所以卡在這裡嘛重點是不是"},{"start":5812.123,"end":5822.174,"text":"那我們為什麼卡在這裡?我們要保護我們本土的業者啊!要不要?對不對?這是考慮的因素,重要的因素這應該是很重要的因素之一嘛!這要跟大家講嘛!這個"},{"start":5825.39,"end":5828.171,"text":"甚至他也有可能也有台灣有投資餐廳啊"},{"start":5854.778,"end":5866.421,"text":"也都有很多可能啊對不對所以我們在考量啊應該是全面性的啦對不對是好謝謝次長那我再請問一下那個我們邱主委"},{"start":5868.857,"end":5887.999,"text":"主委,我不知道你有沒有看到今天的新聞美國的驅逐艦分N號特別經過台灣海峽而且現在剛好是中國的兩會期間然後金門的事件還有中飛在南海的衝突"},{"start":5889.636,"end":5913.231,"text":"他特意提早以前大概都是月底我不知道這主委應該比我清楚特意提早來我個人認為這個是美國對中國釋出一個非常明顯的訊號就是台灣海峽是國際海域是屬於自由航行的這中間也會牽扯到他所謂的M503的這個航線這個這個種種的我認為美國是故意挑這個時間來的"},{"start":5919.295,"end":5943.252,"text":"向他的印太夥伴來說這個保證印太的積極的自由跟航行的權利我覺得主委是不是有這個意思存在我想我們看到美國不管是太平洋司令也好或者說美國的軍方也好大概都多次的表達他們都按照國際的法的規範在維護國際的這樣的一個航道"},{"start":5946.975,"end":5968.746,"text":"這我想已經宣布了好幾次了那第二個就是說中國他因為軍事的擴張跟武力的使用事實上已經造成周邊的國家都有高度的警覺了所以也因此大家就是對於整個海域的安全大家就集體的來做這樣的一個維護的動作了那我想這個應該是可以理解的"},{"start":5969.612,"end":5988.466,"text":"應該可以理解啦所以你的看法跟我是一樣啦只是你不方便在這邊說的很直接啦那另外啦在這一次在他們兩會期間啊中國刻意把和平統一和平兩個字拿掉這個我不知道主委有沒有注意到你覺得他代表的意思是什麼"},{"start":5989.926,"end":6016.453,"text":"確實我們大概每一次的中國的兩會或者是他們的黨的大會的報告我們大概都會去做一些相關的研析不過因為坦白講單純這樣子我們沒有辦法馬上具下論斷我們當然都會再收集更多的資訊特別是相關單位的資訊來做他們這樣的一個用意到底有沒有什麼樣的一個用意"},{"start":6017.213,"end":6042.48,"text":"不過因為不能只單看一個字眼因為主要的原因我們是會總體來看他報告裡面還提到有沒有其他的部分會涉及到這個東西比如說他內部社會的問題也好他經濟的問題也好他們到底怎麼樣處理那這個都是有一定程度的連動所以單純看四個字恐怕不是我們只在注意這個字詞的用意而是說要整體來看觀察那我們也會跟相關單位來做這樣研判"},{"start":6044.381,"end":6066.909,"text":"那我們如果有什麼這個外界有什麼我們大概在例行記者會也都會接受大家的詢問那做比較完整的表達其實只是要提醒就是說很多的滋味小節那如果這樣其實主委都有注意到了這個這樣國人就會比較放心我們都有注意到所以我最後還是要說我們今天這個專題報告我還是覺得"},{"start":6072.386,"end":6072.546,"text":"謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":6101.094,"end":6126.184,"text":"好 謝謝張宏祿委員接下來我們請黃建斌委員質詢謝謝主席我想我們有請我們的陸委會主委跟我們的次長陸委會邱太三主委以及交通部次長請有請"},{"start":6129.618,"end":6153.612,"text":"會議員好主委早 次長早我想在那個質詢之前本期身為台東的立委我必須要跟陸委會跟交通部反映一件事情就是不要從台北看天下了不要從國境上看天下我們希望能夠把天下人士當作自己的事來看"},{"start":6156.072,"end":6181.037,"text":"那團客重不重要當然相當的重要他的產值相當的重要那本席所在的台東縣長期仰賴這個觀光產業來發展顯得更重要那我們更在乎的是入客還有其他各國的觀光客人來台東本來知道講到入客可能又要背車椅來抹後"},{"start":6183.278,"end":6194.172,"text":"還說我們跟中共同路不過我相信為了臺東的未來尤其認為該講的就要講該做的就要做委員我不會這樣的我等一下再說我記上依舊母鳳祭2019年來臺灣的觀光客人次大概是1186萬人就到去年"},{"start":6202.267,"end":6224.279,"text":"也達到了600萬的目標不過這樣是疫情之後其實也僅僅恢復了5成不反觀我們亞洲其他鄰近的國家的觀光數據韓國去年在上半年度已經恢復了6成日本也已經恢復了8成那我們台灣的成績真的算是後段班後段班才去年9月底來台灣的旅客也可以看得到"},{"start":6225.626,"end":6241.082,"text":"我們中國大陸受到政策影響目前只有14萬人次來台灣一口氣下滑到排名第10原本排名在第二來台灣旅客最多的日本也沒有因為這樣順勢攀升僅僅不到60萬來台大幅的下滑"},{"start":6242.529,"end":6271.719,"text":"原本我們寄望兩岸春暖花開的大陸旅行團課現在完全喊卡我想這個想要吐露這跟當時我們賴清德副總統在選舉時候提出的我們的門永遠是開的我想請問主委跟次長這兩位哪一位那麼大膽把門關起來不是我們門一直都開著啊是他不讓他們的人來啊是對啊了解謝謝主委是他不讓他們的人來不是我們讓我們的國人都可以去自由行啊"},{"start":6272.884,"end":6301.643,"text":"現在就是團客的部分我們也認為說他開我們同樣同時開嘛這不是最好的一個結果我相信就是你們關起來之後影響到的問題我們都可以意見得到我們可以意見得到那我想要請問主委跟我們的次長路靠不來我們的損失在我們的交通部這邊有講到739億這個是數字上的損失嘛數字上這個數字統計損失還有很多無形的商機都沒有了我想這是變相的打臉我們賴清德未來總統的政見"},{"start":6303.204,"end":6325.764,"text":"我要在這邊幫未來的賴清德總統來考慮一下請教兩位當時賴清德副總統在選競選的時候提出的觀光立國有六大面向你知道是哪六大面向嗎這個我是不是請 署長 副市長署長 六大面向包委員這我要去查一下"},{"start":6329.192,"end":6330.273,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6340.891,"end":6365.06,"text":"是報告委員那基本上賴副總統的這個六大面向這個我們都應該都是在進行當中那尤其是第六項我們是很歡迎來那個跟跟上報告六大面向第一個包括以觀光立國的目標儘快回到1000萬人次的國際觀光客的目標達到步步有觀光然後結合地方政府發展觀光主流化"},{"start":6365.64,"end":6388.489,"text":"打造國際觀光品牌讓地方的觀光資源能夠充分的展現進行區域性的合作推出區域性的旅遊產品報言這些方向都非常有眼見也是相當這是我們副總統我們未來的總統提出的我們各部會甚至我們觀光署跟相關部會努力的目標譬如說第二點"},{"start":6389.569,"end":6405.816,"text":"觀光署現在也不是只有我們自己在做行政院也有一個跨部位的會議把文化部、農業部、內政部、國家公運署以及相關部位跟觀光有關的都結合在一起所以這些工作剛好是最近我們主要的重點"},{"start":6410.452,"end":6412.233,"text":"市長,我相信真正的善意是要有一方先丟出來"},{"start":6432.344,"end":6432.464,"text":"請各位兩線的熱線電話"},{"start":6454.02,"end":6464.197,"text":"我桌子上確實有一支電話啦還是說親愛的交通委員 交通委員會請那個中華電信去查一下電話線路還行不行"},{"start":6466.807,"end":6491.645,"text":"還可以用啦還可以用只是要不要使用而已啦我想這開玩笑啦所以不好意思我只是要提醒說不要等到ECFA或其他兩岸重大來往的都斷掉之後再來去檢討或怪罪誰我想這個都沒有用我想誰對誰錯社會大眾都會有公斷很抱歉"},{"start":6492.566,"end":6514.398,"text":"本席要的不只是入客而已因為臺東的地理條件非常特殊也受到很多發展上的限制我們需要更多的觀光客進來我想問次長是次長你有聽過I believe I can fly嗎?不是臺東的笑話是臺東機場的IDF你是I don't fly你是I can fly是次長我們要的是臺東機場來的飛機能夠更多"},{"start":6522.229,"end":6542.288,"text":"跟委員報告臺東機場我們民航局的部門一直有在整建現在在整建滑行道那他整建完成以後可以320的飛機可以落大概180到210人國際包機子可以直接飛臺東市長你知道臺東到臺北的火車要花多少時間嗎"},{"start":6543.93,"end":6568.51,"text":"快的話3個半小時到4個小時,慢的話要5、6個小時本席來開會都要坐很久所以我們航空的班次比較多,一定還要6班市長,台北到東京的時間多少?可能要4個小時報告市長,你到東京的時候本席可能還在火車上而且因為可能還買不到火車便當,肚子餓火車便當的問題,我們會再討論"},{"start":6583.586,"end":6603.278,"text":"時間成本真的是會影響到旅遊最主要的因素我跟您報告,我們新型的EMU3000已經進來有50列了,600多列所以基本上這一系列的車型可以...市長還是要3個半小時嘛是,大概3個半小時那變相是很痛苦的事情,市長知道嘛對不對"},{"start":6604.518,"end":6625.307,"text":"現在就是花東雙軌的部分也同步在進行所以有些地方必須必須要避讓有些班次我們比較快直接從宜蘭一直到台東市長交通的時間成本會讓人決定要不要去旅遊台東不是台灣的後花園我們是南島文化的發源地"},{"start":6626.585,"end":6651.415,"text":"讓它是全世界非常重要的文化的一個資產我們可以說臺東是外國人要認識臺東的第一站那過去花蓮曾經能夠直飛到香港那去年4月份花蓮還有直飛到越南的這樣的一個紀錄的班機希望臺東可以讓臺東機場也可以飛到更多的地方讓更多的外國遊客能夠認識臺灣"},{"start":6654.442,"end":6677.044,"text":"跟委員報告花蓮是因為在前一陣子香港快運他們大概全力發展花蓮那其實疫情前他們也想到臺東那臺東當初是因為跑道、滑行道的問題所以我們一樣去開始整建整建完成320就可以落他們就可以飛那第二個是我們觀光旅遊我們觀光署也有"},{"start":6677.685,"end":6678.145,"text":"接下來有請高津素美委員提出質詢"},{"start":6712.263,"end":6717.072,"text":"謝謝我們的委員我們請一下這個陸委會主委好 邱太三主委有請"},{"start":6721.004,"end":6742.653,"text":"主委您好辛苦了最近真的非常多的事情造成您的這個工作業務量非常的大謝謝體系本來之前就沒有什麼樣的這個溝通管道現在更是惡意螺旋一直往上不斷的增加升高然後我們看到就是昨天李強在人大報告"},{"start":6744.013,"end":6745.995,"text":"我希望您用一分鐘來簡單回答我"},{"start":6760.989,"end":6784.784,"text":"我們如果回顧比較長的歷史來看大概民進黨執政的時候他大概都以反突做優先那如果國民黨執政的時候他就希望統一做優先大概在這兩個裡面做主軸上的區分那所以呢我剛剛也提到就是說我們也來理解一下他是不是跟過去一樣或者是他有特別的用意這就是我剛剛講說我現在沒有辦法據下論斷"},{"start":6787.125,"end":6808.963,"text":"所以你們根本沒有跟著這個所謂的時事的態度趕快做一個因應的措施您剛剛講的對不起對不起主委您剛剛講到的這個部分都是意識形態的部分今天您是全民的陸委會主委我是全民選出來的立法委員我們不應該站在哪一個執政黨的面前來談論國家安全的問題還有全台灣2300萬人民安全的問題"},{"start":6813.386,"end":6835.833,"text":"所以本席建議就是現在的兩岸的這種惡意的螺旋持續的升高非常的嚴重其實這不是好事情對於政府所謂的政府就是全民的政府不是哪一個政黨的政府不是嗎所以對於政府你們應該是有責任要來降低這樣的危機這才是全民的利益對不對"},{"start":6836.813,"end":6840.734,"text":"昨年11月交通部原本規劃在今年春節就要恢復旅行社組團副旅遊的具體內容"},{"start":6856.858,"end":6871.115,"text":"按照不管是陸委會的報告也好交通部的報告也好觀光署的報告也好你們總共有三個重點第一個重點就是什麼因為逆差的問題對吧第二個就是"},{"start":6872.301,"end":6892.798,"text":"改變了N503航路運行方式因為你們考量整體情勢不利國家的利益然後還有第三個是用反間諜法因為反間諜法會造成國人到大陸去人身安全的風險增加了然後呢我們是"},{"start":6893.579,"end":6921.795,"text":"沒有有效的機制可以處理這樣的因素所以呢你們就暫停了這個赴陸組團的這個部分那我就覺得有一點納悶就是這個納悶就想要問一下你們所謂的反間諜法的原因不是在現在就有嘛對不對那6月前到大陸去的不管是組團不管是自由行的這些人難道就沒有所謂的人身風安全風險嗎"},{"start":6923.636,"end":6950.804,"text":"所以委員我們的陸委會多次在我們的例行記者會裡面一再的糟糕國人大陸他整個法律的制定所涉及到的不是只有這些啦如果更早期包括他的所謂的數據安全法你在那邊如果上網上他們的這個相關的單位的數據也可能會涉及到相關的法制所以我們陸委會大概在兩個禮拜一次的例行記者會一定會提醒國人"},{"start":6952.245,"end":6956.648,"text":"委員講得很好,所以我們希望他跟我們簽的協議我們本來就有機制在就像我剛剛講的"},{"start":6979.648,"end":6980.469,"text":"這很早就有了很早就有了不是因為這一次6月"},{"start":7004.631,"end":7025.898,"text":"所以外界一直因為為什麼你們這次會片面的宣布你的法律基礎到底是什麼好了我們今天終於看到了我們的觀光署是說找到法律依據了這個法律依據是發展觀光條例第53條第一項以及旅行業管理規則第49條第19款"},{"start":7029.019,"end":7055.147,"text":"因為這樣子的法律因素所以呢旅行業者你們就必須要負管理監督之責然後你們必須要有損害國家利益的這樣子的概念所以呢觀光署就事前通知我們的旅行業者說你要保護國家利益所以你就必須要暫停請主委您休息一下我們請一下交通部"},{"start":7058.041,"end":7080.911,"text":"請暫停我的時間請問一下交通部不管是次長回答也好、副署長回答也好我們的旅行業者組團到大陸到底他破壞了我們國家利益的哪一個方面你要用這樣子的條例來告訴我們的旅行業者"},{"start":7082.099,"end":7082.859,"text":"日本僅僅第二季的人均消費17.68萬億元"},{"start":7102.461,"end":7107.267,"text":"也就是相當於3月3號匯率新台幣37,192塊來計算的話去年台灣人去日本旅遊的人數大概多少錢你知道嗎一千多億耶"},{"start":7117.398,"end":7117.878,"text":"日本政府並沒有禁止他的國人來台旅遊"},{"start":7142.416,"end":7157.236,"text":"但是如果你用逆差的這樣的概念來說這樣逆差的話更大啊如果這種的態度是開放的那這個就看好啦所以你不能講逆差嘛所以你就不應該把逆差列為國家安全嘛"},{"start":7157.877,"end":7158.977,"text":"因此你也不用再回答我了齁"},{"start":7181.504,"end":7187.888,"text":"陸委會和交通部禁止臺灣旅遊業者組團去大陸觀光。我要問的是,請主委也上台一下,這個決策過程到底是什麼?有沒有會議記錄?因為你們今天來的這個三個報告的決策會議過程好像都是講這三個。我要請問你,這個決策過程有沒有會議記錄?"},{"start":7203.829,"end":7222.037,"text":"是你陸委會自己決定的還是行政院跨部會決定的在去年的8月間是行政院跨部會嗎跨部會就是剛剛有提到了那跨部會的成績有哪些剛剛他有提到報告裡面有提到有我們陸委會交通部跟經濟部因為"},{"start":7223.297,"end":7225.078,"text":"昨年8月的時候他應該在忙著選舉沒有管這些事情"},{"start":7249.176,"end":7255.862,"text":"所以去年8月的時候你的意思說在簽的中不管這件事情但是您剛剛在這邊說不就你的決斷好像說來這邊觀光然後影響我們的選舉這好像選舉也是在你們的考慮之中嗎所以您再講一下這個行政院的跨部會有哪些有哪些再講一下有哪些有陸委會"},{"start":7276.66,"end":7290.125,"text":"陸委會、交通部、跟經濟部還有幾些相關的﹐相關是誰啊﹐保安單位嘛﹐比如說移民署也好啦﹐或者是這個﹐因為你今天的會議﹐我今天請你們報告的這個名稱就是決策的內容你們今天也沒有告訴我好不好﹐因為我的時間有限"},{"start":7297.748,"end":7315.118,"text":"今天專題報告是決策過程但是我們在你們三個單位裡面也沒有看到決策過程然後做了這個決策之後到底有沒有做過全面的損害評估有沒有今天的報告也沒有看到"},{"start":7316.511,"end":7332.159,"text":"對啦 基本上把結論都已經告訴各位了嘛沒有啊 平常評估損害評估第一個不對等嘛 第二個呢你只有講利差嘛你講多少嘛 第三個其他的部分嘛包括剛剛提到的嘛 對不對這個損害評估不僅僅是這個三個大項還有國內的損害評估啊對對對對你們沒有啊 對不對剛剛不是剛剛提出的那個數據嗎"},{"start":7340.143,"end":7340.483,"text":"主委時間到了齁"},{"start":7356.229,"end":7377.138,"text":"我今天就我在這邊質詢的這個我的立場我下一個最後的結論我的結論就是說你們這麼樣出招的政策我認為就像我昨天的總質詢一樣不管我們的政府做了哪一些錯誤的政策你們都不願意收回因為我覺得就是故意的這個故意"},{"start":7378.198,"end":7404.491,"text":"是讓我們旅行業者當作兩岸的對抗的砲灰我覺得這樣子不妥啦好不好我想我們也有很多的委員可以我認為不妥這個希望大家能夠更加和諧的交流我覺得這個是你的工作不要忘記我們也努力了好不好我們盡量大家努力好不好尤其是您喔您更重要啊好嗎"},{"start":7405.331,"end":7420.806,"text":"好 謝謝今天的質詢好 謝謝高津委員這個請相關的單位針對本案的決策過程提供相關的書面資料以及衝擊影響評估提供給本會委員以及高津委員做參考以上"},{"start":7432.125,"end":7434.908,"text":"好 我們繼續請黃婕委員質詢好 謝謝主席我們請熱會主委請邱主委"},{"start":7450.656,"end":7469.277,"text":"主委首先往下請教一下因為大家都在說這個我們兩岸交流以及這個觀光應該要在對等的基礎之上那這個對等到底指的是什麼基本的原則是什麼我想對等呢 好有問題啦就是說大家在政策上如何"},{"start":7469.878,"end":7469.998,"text":"為什麼這樣沒有不對等?"},{"start":7496.847,"end":7524.185,"text":"其實剛剛主委就已經回答了嘛對等的基礎就是兩邊都是同樣是完全開放的狀態就不會有這個問題嘛所以為什麼我們跟中國之間會很常被說沒有對等因為其實我從剛剛整個報告聽下來我整理了一下目前其實中國到台灣的政策是團客跟自由行完全不行對嗎是的而且他已經開放了138個國家團客可以去就是沒有台灣"},{"start":7524.545,"end":7538.845,"text":"沒錯 那我們台灣去中國是自由行都一直都是可以的對嗎對沒錯 所以其實台灣到中國到現在都還可以自由行我們買一張機票就可以過去這個是政策上很明顯的一個不對的對嗎"},{"start":7540.567,"end":7540.947,"text":"這是必然的嘛"},{"start":7567.261,"end":7582.637,"text":"對"},{"start":7582.837,"end":7602.066,"text":"那再來其實仁次我也有去查 去年其實因為在中國團客跟自由行都沒有辦法來台灣的情況下只有22萬人來到台灣那這包括可能是第三地的商務的就其實零零總總也就22萬人那台灣去中國因為自由行都還有開放所以大概有176萬人整整差了8倍"},{"start":7604.967,"end":7613.374,"text":"那這其實從政策到產值到人次很明顯就是一個非常不對等的狀態請問以上的數字有說錯嗎根據交通部的統計這是確實是這樣子沒有錯好那再來我要講一下這個對等不只是說這從政策產值到人次其實我要講"},{"start":7626.504,"end":7642.716,"text":"過去都一直以來都是中國在對台灣進行片面的改變現狀為什麼其實剛剛前面有委員提到說為什麼馬政府時期OK然後到了民進黨執政時期不OK很明確啊因為他們就國台辦就講啦他們說有九二共識才要開放"},{"start":7647.742,"end":7666.481,"text":"他們很明顯就是要以商逼政嘛這其實國台辦從頭到尾都沒有在掩飾他的政治意圖以政治來進行商業的干預那其實過去從馬政府時期到蔡政府時期其實當蔡政府一上任的時候這個人"},{"start":7667.702,"end":7696.722,"text":"中國來台的旅客就有非常明顯的落差是418萬人最後只剩下351萬人他們其實就很明確講了你民進黨執政我就是要用人數來台的人數來干預你的執政的這個影響那這是第一個那到了2019年7月的時候國台辦也禁止中國的自由行來台當時國台辦是怎麼說的他說有九二共識才有自由行"},{"start":7698.023,"end":7716.317,"text":"完全不演了他就是很明顯我要用政治的手段來干預我們兩岸的交流那這樣有對等嗎再來剛剛主委也有提到說去年12月其實中國已經開放138個國家的團客跟自由行到世界各國但是獨落台灣"},{"start":7718.205,"end":7742.762,"text":"從頭到尾就是沒有要讓台灣跟我們對等的交流啦所以從頭到尾就是在欺負台灣嘛那再來甚至是到了今年1月非常更嚴重的事情就是他們篡改M03的航路那剛剛主委這部分我也希望你再明確的表達一下為什麼這個會嚴重影響飛安甚至是不是有模糊海峽中線的意圖"},{"start":7746.971,"end":7759.898,"text":"國際社會也都對於中國擅自更改503這樣的一個路線發出說這是在片面改變現狀而且會影響到整個區域的國際飛航的安全因為它就是一條國際航道"},{"start":7762.21,"end":7783.901,"text":"所以這其實是值得大家關注的事情善改M503航路這件事情是中國一直在片面的對台灣改變我們兩岸的現狀那最後當然他們還加碼就是不只沒有善意以上聽起來林林總總對台灣已經很沒有善意了還非常惡意的加碼1月的諾魯斷交嘛然後跟我們搶邦交國嘛"},{"start":7784.381,"end":7793.218,"text":"那以上這些009的事情那國台辦還片面的說我方的做法不得人心但從頭到尾沒有溝通誠意的是不是就是中國?"},{"start":7795.551,"end":7820.617,"text":"我想我先問啦以上這些他們在進行這個措施的時候請問中國有來跟台灣溝通過嗎?我們如果會有接到任何消息嗎?當然不可能啦沒有嗎?完全沒有嗎?這個對等的溝通在哪裡嗎?那我想問一下這一次我們在這個在釋出說我們很願意開放團課的這個前提用對等的前提其實我們釋出非常大的善意是嗎?對,沒有錯那請問中方給了什麼回應?"},{"start":7823.438,"end":7830.623,"text":"以讀不回還是未讀未回根本就不理我們對嗎初期他們是認為這個現階段不談這個議題但是也沒有所謂明確的否決但是隨著台灣選舉的這個基調上面他們的這個說法上就越來越朝向負面我就問一個很明確的如果當中方給了什麼樣的回應我們就可以對等的來開放那可以開放什麼可不可以請"},{"start":7851.075,"end":7877.874,"text":"主委這邊給一下一個明確的指令就是說當中方答應說他們開放團客跟自由行來台灣我們就可以對等的開放是這樣對嗎對基本上我們還是會按照過去的經驗上從彼此的人數上為什麼我們一開始所謂的設定這個每日2000人的這樣的一個計算基準倒不是說限定每日一定2000人而是一段時間的總數那是在算總數"},{"start":7880.276,"end":7897.028,"text":"因為2019年他就是調控到他可以調控到從本來團客幾百萬人次調控到只剩下85萬人次所以中國在對台灣的觀光旅遊也不斷的隨著台灣政情的發展變化他有控制他的人數"},{"start":7898.68,"end":7918.074,"text":"好那我也希望說我們就維持這個原則那繼續的釋出善意當然我不希望說我們的善意是真心換絕情好心被雷清啦這個一定要秉持住這個基本的原則那最後我還是要問一下說因為大家還是說這次有許多的旅遊業者可能因為我們釋出的資訊不夠明確"},{"start":7919.255,"end":7924.78,"text":"所以他們已經先行組團了所以我們今年3月到5月確實也有讓這些本來有要組團的還是讓他們去開放對嗎?要不要請我們副署長說明一下那基於以上的這些就是3到5月是次長還是次長?你要請人回答那次長也可以"},{"start":7938.992,"end":7943.734,"text":"好 我們請次長我先把明確的問題因為你們確實還是在這個釋出的訊息上或許有一點落差讓旅遊業者覺得說已經可以去組團了所以確實我們還是在3到5月有一個緩衝讓他們盡量在這段時間本來已經組好的還是可以附入旅遊對嗎附中旅遊"},{"start":7959.17,"end":7988.159,"text":"是的那我還是希望說已經發覺有些旅行社開始攬客所以就基本上3月1號到5月31號這三個月降低他們已經組團這個損失了那可不可以請市長明確的說明說我們在這段時間會如何協助業者跟稍微受到影響的這些旅客的權益我們祭出什麼樣的措施來協助他們因為讓國人安心還是最重要的"},{"start":7988.972,"end":8015.354,"text":"跟委員報告基本上3月1號到5月31號已經成團了就如期出團第二位以後的盡量變到前面來或改團或是退會這個我們觀光署會來協助好那這部分之後還是叮嚀在釋出訊息的時候一定也要跟業者有一個明確的溝通讓他們知道我們的政策是什麼並且確保所有旅客的權益那最後還是要小小的提醒畢竟現在附中的風險"},{"start":8016.235,"end":8016.596,"text":"繼續我們請徐宇珍委員質詢"},{"start":8055.755,"end":8060.26,"text":"主席您好是不是請邨泰森主委跟交通部林國賢次長好請主委請次長謝謝"},{"start":8066.675,"end":8087.168,"text":"主委辛苦了我想陸委會的副主委曾志宏副主委在2023年8月23號與例行的記者會上有宣布因應兩岸民眾旅行、旅遊跟商務的需求從9月1號起恢復開放旅居海外的路客來台觀光此外也將恢復兩岸的團體旅遊"},{"start":8089.269,"end":8113.822,"text":"然後在2023年11月3號的時候．在院會的時候．交通部王國才部長也回答．立委的質詢說．赴中國旅遊的進團令．可望在2024年春節前宣布解除．3月1號可以開始組團．尤其在2024就是今年的1月31號．交通部舉辦的新春記者會的時候．也正式宣布3月1號將如期．"},{"start":8115.723,"end":8124.508,"text":"的解禁兩岸的禁團令．開放臺灣的團客到中國旅遊．還強調．就算今年陸客沒有來臺．1200萬的國際旅客的目標還是不變．但是才過了7天．"},{"start":8131.591,"end":8153.226,"text":"過了7天而已2月7號觀光署就馬上更改政策通告所有的旅遊業者即日起不准再接新的復入旅遊團那以招攬成團的出發日期在3月1號到5月31號的團體為了保障旅行業者跟旅客的權益所以仍可出團然後6月1號之後的"},{"start":8154.4,"end":8176.398,"text":"旅遊團就不行我想請教一下這個邱主委跟林次長至少講了5個月的政策今年1月31還信誓旦旦的說陸客沒來沒關係我們3月1號如期解禁為什麼7天之後政策大轉彎這個政策是誰決定的是陸委會、交通部"},{"start":8179.708,"end":8186.951,"text":"8月24日之後,交通部他們對外的說法,我是不是請他們,因為我們不曉得他們內部的...好,謝謝委員,成為您剛敘述的,8月以後,一直是表達善意,希望大陸能夠看到我們願意開放"},{"start":8202.137,"end":8202.598,"text":"這個決策是交通部決定的嗎?"},{"start":8216.182,"end":8230.571,"text":"應該是在行政院裡面綜合討論的也就是說交通部在立場上希望大陸能夠有善意的回應第二個呢我們也在觀察這段期間是不是有對等的這個所以說是大家共同的決定這樣嗎是是請教一下兩岸的問題其實是屬於總統的職權還是這個是屬於蔡總統決定的"},{"start":8238.418,"end":8257.688,"text":"我剛剛這個次長已經跟委員報告了基本上我們是原來就是跨部會當然也有邀國安單位因為剛剛我在一開始有跟委員會說明就是說基本上如果入客來台灣的話那基本上會涉及我們陸委會跟國安單位的業務"},{"start":8258.408,"end":8259.028,"text":"相關的會議討論有沒有會議記錄"},{"start":8285.325,"end":8288.627,"text":"宣布恢復兩岸的團體旅遊的時候為什麼是由陸委會先行宣布但是禁止團客赴陸"},{"start":8302.454,"end":8313.282,"text":"卻是由這個在交通部觀光署來說明陸委會卻不出聲請問邱主委你對禁止團客赴陸有什麼看法這個措施會不會影響陸委會對大陸溝通的業務進行影響"},{"start":8318.819,"end":8342.285,"text":"請說第一個8月24號是我們會同交通部同時來做對外開放的這樣的一個公佈那至於這個我剛剛一開始就也跟委員報告過了入客要來台灣是我們陸委會執掌但是我們的國人要到赴陸是交通部執掌那請問一下就是說這個措施對於你們兩岸的溝通會不會有影響"},{"start":8344.246,"end":8366.16,"text":"你說這個政策的決定基本上從一開始大家就透過各種的管道包括委員熱心的去協調那您覺得影響大不大是大還是不大對我們影響當然很大因為單方開放另外一方拒絕開放那特別是對我們不但是不對等而且也是不公平因為他已經開放138個國家既然影響大的話我們就要來解決問題"},{"start":8370.083,"end":8370.663,"text":"當時我們先解決所謂M503的問題第一個"},{"start":8398.83,"end":8414.768,"text":"當時他們還是有團客來啊我們也有團客去啊2018年那這個是純粹經貿的議題嘛那我們現在是認為說M503這樣的一個變動呢在當時我們就用所謂的他們要春節的加班機呢我們給他暫停"},{"start":8416.372,"end":8440.913,"text":"可是春節的加班機暫停 成害的是我們大陸台商要回家的這樣的一個權利耶這根本就是打我們自己的小孩在給別人看啦基本上這是雙向的啦 飛機都是雙向在飛的2018年當時斷交了三個國家 團客都沒有這個復入都沒有禁止那為什麼那時候沒有禁止 現在禁止是因為那時候局勢不緊張 現在局勢比較緊張嗎"},{"start":8444.016,"end":8463.18,"text":"基本上我們剛剛提到了經貿的議題我們最好是純經貿來做考量絕對最好不要有政治上的議題的干涉啦所以我只是覺得因為剛剛一直聽到F503嘛我剛剛不是講他們有英磅來進來我們當然有奧磅進出去嘛所以這是對等的啊就經貿上還是對等的啊我只是覺得說當時的狀況也是這樣子的結果現在的狀況卻不要禁止問題是他禁止他們的人來啊好這個部分呢等一下本席來跟你探討"},{"start":8473.142,"end":8497.111,"text":"P2你在你的報告的第二頁裡面有提到就是說陸方的反間諜法可能會造成國人附入人身安全的風險增加我想請教一下這個從2018年2017年公佈到現在有沒有我們的這個旅行團業者有旅客因為受到拘留的情形發生"},{"start":8497.751,"end":8497.871,"text":"從2017年到現在"},{"start":8516.795,"end":8530.35,"text":"都沒有我們的旅客因為到大陸去旅遊團因為這個反建典法而受到拘留的情形所以我覺得這樣不要這樣來恐嚇我的人民我想我如果要的話我會把我們統計到統計到我們國人在這幾年被大陸"},{"start":8533.894,"end":8562.683,"text":"因為這是旅行旅遊工會給我的相關資料那我也希望你們提供官方的資料我們來做做佐證我們沒有禁止自由行所以連自由行的也有受到傷害另外呢我想要在這邊也要再請教一下我們交通部就是有關這一次用的法令是呢發展觀光條例第53條第一項有損害國家利益者請問一下所謂的有損害國家利益者你們是什麼定義的"},{"start":8564.276,"end":8586.346,"text":"報告委員,損害國家利益之餘有可能所以我們用旅行業管理規則第19條提醒他們在這段期間就不要出團那我想請教一下在第53條第一項裡面有規定到說禁止團客復入嗎?可以禁止團客復入嗎?"},{"start":8587.666,"end":8607.232,"text":"包委那是一個不確定法律概念所以這個條文裡面只有說可以處以罰還或者是停業或是停止這個他的執照並沒有提到說你可以禁止團客來復發展所以你引用錯誤的法令然後造成我們這觀光旅遊業者的損失這個部分應該由誰來負責"},{"start":8610.762,"end":8625.172,"text":"根委員報告基本上旅行業要遵守觀光署的監管那觀光署認為這樣的我們開放他們沒有開放是對國家利益不利所以我們提醒業者這段期間就不要做"},{"start":8640.542,"end":8640.682,"text":"主席"},{"start":8665.127,"end":8687.182,"text":"報告委員,我們為了要降低衝擊,所以3月到5月之間,他還是可以如期出團。那6月之後的呢,他有三個措施,第一個是說他可以改到其他的國家目的地,那第二呢,他可以併到3月到5月的出團。我想請教一下,如果你本來是打算暑假出團的,因為那時候剛好有放假帶小孩出團,"},{"start":8687.682,"end":8706.855,"text":"你現在可以跟他講你到五月先請假出國請假不要上課去出國嗎所以他的政策其實我覺得就是為難觀光業者尤其是觀光業者他們其實在跟大陸洽談的時候我相信常常都是整年兔的配套措施淡季旺季還有這個所謂的我們的"},{"start":8707.435,"end":8707.595,"text":"我們會再跟這個公會這邊再來討論"},{"start":8735.25,"end":8759.452,"text":"好 謝謝徐睿珍委員的這個質詢那個 對不起 這個觀光署你們真的是要把這個評估還有後配套的措施趕快而不是跟旅行業者你們也必須要提供到本會來本委員會來好不好好 我宣布一下我們請這個博弈委員質詢完畢我們休息3分鐘好不好現在有請王美惠委員謝謝"},{"start":8766.229,"end":8771.813,"text":"主席、南車主委及政事有請主委以及次長,謝謝主委、政事,大家好,在這裏大家都說很多本事要跟你討論一個,你現在停,你說因為我們的單一的"},{"start":8788.642,"end":8792.423,"text":"視之以後矣嘛,因為長久以來,我們都會覺得說,一天我們會唱反調。本身在這,要來去請教說,在這個過程當中,包括你如果好,還是交通部也好,有去宣佈說,我們三位車一開始,還可以集團去大陸出頭嗎?來請回答一下。"},{"start":8814.596,"end":8824.38,"text":"我們在今年8月,在記者會裡面,我們開放的時間點就是一開放的時間點,我們以前有這樣的做法,但是後來交通部有一些藉著對他們的建議,他們的公法,這個部分我先...這樣是不是,我政治來..."},{"start":8837.779,"end":8844.805,"text":"跟委員報告我沒有正式宣布案你沒有正式宣布但是我們有跟業者溝通說可以開始準備在這裡本學所了解就是說有一些團我們說實在的我們也會去考慮就是說今天禮拜因為這三天的疫情"},{"start":8856.715,"end":8860.818,"text":"這個觀光客、派出、大家要集團出去各國﹐也希望早日可以集團﹐但在這個過程當中﹐你若說就說﹐有可能在明年3月才開始﹐就可以集團去大陸﹐但在這個過程當中﹐因為要變化到端﹐如果要對台灣如何我們不知道﹐"},{"start":8884.056,"end":8887.498,"text":"未來這幾天、這幾天的改變時﹐我們覺得不行﹐跟我們經常說我們來人頭斥頭﹐跟我們又沒歡迎你﹐當然就是金了﹐在這個金的當中﹐本身要跟你感到的就是說﹐他們有利用什麼的理想﹐包括這個應用很大的﹐"},{"start":8909.537,"end":8913.542,"text":"不是說我們說阿公說的金就好了,金我們也要顧到台灣的資金,說來說去也是台灣的資金,在這方面我相信最嚴重可以讓你們知道我們貴姓不要出團去大陸是什麼原因來"},{"start":8931.095,"end":8938.42,"text":"向委員報告,主要當初是一直善意,我們前輩會對啦,一定有善意,一定有善意,一定有什麼關係,你來雄雄話說,這樣過程我們也會出發了所以我剛才有報告,今年以來就是相關事件,包含外交上的問題,包含503"},{"start":8952.629,"end":8980.046,"text":"最後就整個決定說2月7號決定說那既然一直都沒有善意的回應那原定的這個開放就只開放三個月因為旅行業者已經攬客了我們要降低他們的損失也要降低民眾的不便所以這三個月還是如期出團6月以後的就關卡這段期間的互動如果大陸那邊有善意回應我們也可以隨時討論"},{"start":8981.807,"end":8987.09,"text":"先說他們有互動他們有婚姻說開放他們的阿囧仔的人來我們台灣的時候我們不一定也是可以隨時、條件開放啊!沒錯!政策上是這樣!對啦!加上這兩名政治本席來請教一下有零三一這個改變對我們的航道應用有多大來?"},{"start":9003.953,"end":9015.576,"text":"跟委員報告,當年在協調503的時候是說,他如果要開放南向北,跟這個1212、1213,要雙邊協戰,他現在我們來是說,北向南要往西偏6海浬,這目的是說,萬一遇到狀況,"},{"start":9028.539,"end":9031.96,"text":"對我們來講就是說有不確定的因素會影響到航關那第二個比較重要的是以12123一個是我們金門一個是馬祖一個金門中端管制區"},{"start":9053.604,"end":9072.693,"text":"這個會跟我們有不確定的干擾因為我們現在是在起飛阿姨要降落所以兩邊要先講好這個動作應該要先溝通協調再來發布比較好1月3日發布2月1日的實施這個是太衝突了因為你的解說我們現在也覺得說在503這個問題是非常大因為以你們專業來說我們法定基金98公"},{"start":9083.018,"end":9084.44,"text":"所以說來說去,也委託台灣做出這種政策"},{"start":9102.722,"end":9109.226,"text":"在這裏他們本身要跟你談到的說,決策已經決策了,在這個3月到5月底都可以出團,這都沒問題嘛,它也沒爭議嘛,現在就是說,跟我有去找,這裡的,你敢知道目前有多少,應用有多少嗎,來,真是,過去是,3月是請出團,"},{"start":9130.217,"end":9133.738,"text":"我們目前初步跟旅行公會統計的資料那3月到5月大概是有4000團左右"},{"start":9151.567,"end":9155.669,"text":"6月的話其實影響就比較小了影響比較小是多少團啦我現在是要問說一團也應用到十團也應用到十八團也應用到是到底有沒有前面"},{"start":9169.557,"end":9186.687,"text":"所謂委員,這有三個原因,就是說,由3月到5月他可以出團,第二個是他可以併團到3月到5月,第三個他可以改...你是要動作,我三歲的孩子,我才不知道你要併團,我現在就是要跟你說,如果以後不能出團...因為6月以後可能還沒有成團啊。還沒成團就是沒有應用到啊。"},{"start":9192.499,"end":9196.083,"text":"這樣是不是沒影響到?沒成團就是沒酒精、沒定金啊!就是歷關都沒影響到啊!感染到現在說起來不是這樣耶!是現在有定金、有酒團的人"},{"start":9207.893,"end":9212.274,"text":"但是這個嚴重是有的人專門去找大陸團而已,他沒有去找白團啊他現在啦,他所找的大陸團,要來轉介,叫人去報議的時候,要如何處理,那是嚴重啦他如果去找大陸團,日本團什麼團,都可以溝通一下什麼,我現在是要跟你請教說"},{"start":9233.88,"end":9241.825,"text":"未來如果像你這樣說的話：到你現在的信息是完全落過議案沒有破團嗎報告委員因為就是說現在他們還在處理嘛就是旅行社這邊我們給他一個彈性他可以併到這個3月到5月的這個除團數或者是說他是改變這樣一個地方好啦 到沒有先處理到五月底要處理的可以併入五月底有多少"},{"start":9262.885,"end":9272.249,"text":"剛剛我們跟委員報告目前掌握的是大概4000團左右這個部分我們是先調查3月到5月的部分我告訴你聽現在的政典我不是3月到5月現在都是說不能出去的啦政治"},{"start":9289.995,"end":9292.556,"text":"在這裡面本來要跟你說的就是因為我們台灣也需要觀光站起來像你們今年決定說一千兩百萬人可以來觀光可以來台灣玩"},{"start":9306.761,"end":9310.543,"text":"在規定的當中﹐不一定包括大陸﹐也不一定﹐但你剛才說的說﹐我們沒有包括大陸﹐也可以答表﹐現在的問題﹐就是在外面都說﹐"},{"start":9321.704,"end":9326.386,"text":"民進黨航班做事：要讓人們大陸的不可以來：這是嚴重：所以政治：你我都是捏台灣白色的錢：沒帶一桶的：在這裡說的是希望台灣好：觀光界可以好："},{"start":9345.174,"end":9346.936,"text":"所以本事是要跟你說：這個沒出團的家：搞不好一個：我不是發言說他們後來後悔做：要來你們申請職：我的意思是說：你們要怎麼去打這個沒評論的：沒在國會上的出去：有條件的：你們要怎麼處理：有一個idea好不好"},{"start":9372.568,"end":9375.549,"text":"跟委員做個說明就是說3到5月就是我們給這個旅行社做一個談訊處理的一個方案所以這個部分完全可以出團還有什麼這個訂金商的問題那6月這個部分為什麼現在還在是它這個變動值"},{"start":9395.174,"end":9395.475,"text":"這樣我告訴他們,他們這樣說,你如果沒準備"},{"start":9410.356,"end":9410.737,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會主任委員"},{"start":9430.678,"end":9434.723,"text":"這這樣聽起來真的不好,真的有作為,不管什麼事情,登場就是要改觀,要不然租款的事情,一定要顧著,要對等嘛,不能說我們來人家投資投,跟人家又不要來人家投資投,跟我們"},{"start":9449.982,"end":9452.424,"text":"好 繼續我們請李柏毅委員 質詢 謝謝"},{"start":9486.613,"end":9493.061,"text":"謝謝我們請邱泰山主委以及我們交通部林次長一起好請主委跟次長謝謝李委員好"},{"start":9497.12,"end":9524.262,"text":"主委我曾經是你的助理我也曾經跟你在高雄市政府有同事過那我回想到過去中國曾經利用觀光客的手段來對付台灣的種種有什麼我突然想到一個熱比亞事件主委你在擔任高雄市副市長的時候高雄市辦了一個影展由民間單位來主辦一個影展"},{"start":9525.003,"end":9551.777,"text":"那這個影展呢 裡面有上百部的影片、電影其中一部有關熱比亞哇 其實在整個籌辦的過程裡面 其實台灣的社會是這樣子嘛你要放什麼電影 其實基本上是不會經過審查的只要你的這個電影分級制度它是合理的那符合這個輔導級、限制級等等的對內容其實我們是沒有意見的但是對岸不是啊"},{"start":9552.717,"end":9564.97,"text":"對岸跳起來我記得那時候好像整個高雄市政府被高雄市議會當時國民黨的議長整個快要翻掉了包含副市長包含現在的主委你也被趕出去"},{"start":9566.439,"end":9593.666,"text":"這個其實就是中國利用各種包含這個他們的觀光客要不要來台灣要不要來高雄要不要到高雄市當時六合夜市的攤商都說啊因為放這個影片害的其實背後這是什麼背後是台灣的民主台灣的自由播放了影片受到中國這一方面的制裁這一次的事件一模一樣"},{"start":9595.495,"end":9617.637,"text":"中國想要利用觀光客來作為他們的籌碼但是當然我們採取對等的方式我們在8月的時候我們就提出這個團客其實也不是我們提出啦我們跟我們的旅行業者來討論這個經過新冠疫情之後8月是不是可以要旅行業者大家來討論"},{"start":9619.595,"end":9645.617,"text":"團客可以開始來進行籌劃但是這個旅行業者就開始在籌劃的過程裡面消息出去嘛但是這個過程裡面還包含中國片面的時不時的用我們的農產品又驗出什麼樣不合中國標準的那在包含這個M503的這個航線他要片面的做改變所以我們不能只有"},{"start":9646.718,"end":9664.458,"text":"交通部我們不能只有觀光署這邊片面的來去決定說我們的團客開始要過去陸委會行政院必須要做相關的調控整體的考量來決定我們是不是對等的團客過去對方對等也可以團客過來"},{"start":9666.52,"end":9684.894,"text":"讓雙方的這個旅遊業者包含台灣的住宿、飯店、餐廳業者也可以得到這些觀光紅利今天整個這個我們專案報告的討論的內容焦點其實就是這個但是我先問主委一個很難回答的問題我相信你也答不出來如果"},{"start":9687.867,"end":9701.099,"text":"我們經過今天這個專案報告之後我們又開始好我們的結論就是說我們要有善意我們來先來提出我們的觀看我們的團課6月之後又可以開始籌辦了"},{"start":9702.964,"end":9704.906,"text":"中國方面會不會同意他們的團課開始籌辦來 主委請你回應"},{"start":9720.345,"end":9724.471,"text":"除了剛剛委員所提到的事實上去年8月我們當然宣布對等開放之後我們也很希望他們能夠有希望我們期待嘛期待到過年前所以他們有說要組彩線團到台灣來有來嘛"},{"start":9737.69,"end":9759.681,"text":"我們也幫他們安排希望說他們這些人回去也能夠跟他們的政府提出說確實應該也讓入客到台灣來但是沒有想到這個中間過程就是起起伏伏又涉及到台灣的一些政治所謂的選舉等等所以才會造成對岸很多的考量"},{"start":9760.862,"end":9784.749,"text":"那很多人考量重點是在於說對我們實在是不公平因為他不斷的宣布他要開放到他們的團客可以到其他國家去包括港澳結果就是沒有台灣那這個對我們來講坦白講我們是難以接受啦不對等就已經很糟糕了又不公平那我想這也是應該是國人難以接受的那我們也很熱情的歡迎他們的採線團先到台灣再來勘察如何安排入客到台灣來旅遊啦"},{"start":9788.51,"end":9805.062,"text":"所以我想交通部也都很認真的期待這個能夠促成但是沒有想到我們後來看到的變化其實是越來越不友善謝謝主委你先請稍等一下我請交通部那個林次長我想請問一下對岸的這個對等的機關你認為對岸對等對於旅遊的這個機關"},{"start":9810.686,"end":9821.577,"text":"他們要開放入客團客來台灣的這個他們的旅行機關是他們的對等的這個行政機關是什麼就你所知"},{"start":9823.687,"end":9835.231,"text":"跟委員報告,雖然是文旅部,但事實上是不是文旅部?是國台辦嗎?所以國台辦沒有同意,那國台辦要請教國台辦的主任,再請教國台辦要問他們的主席,對不對?"},{"start":9842.373,"end":9858.38,"text":"所以這個層次的問題真的不是交通部也不是觀光局確實陸委會邱主委是這一次必須要決定臺灣的這個觀光的團客到底能不能過去但是最後的決定權是誰"},{"start":9859.46,"end":9880.34,"text":"我們遞出感染誌之後,最後的決定權是誰?還是國台辦嗎?這個是我們沒有辦法質詢的單位所以說,來,次長你請休息,再請邱主委所以,從2019年,其實大陸方面,中國方面就因為台灣進行縣市長的選舉"},{"start":9882.335,"end":9909.497,"text":"那因為台灣這個太民主、太自由、太多元來台灣看電視會讓這些大陸來的這些自由行的旅客會愛上台灣的民主啊所以說會愛上台灣的自由啊所以說他們就開始禁止這個自由行的旅客來台灣那到這個目前為止啊中國也還沒有開放大陸自由行的旅客來台灣是中國還沒有開放對不對對"},{"start":9911.258,"end":9936.485,"text":"他那個禁令還在2019年8月1號的禁令所以不是台灣不是陸委會禁止中國的自由行旅客來對不對對我們還開放了第三地的大陸人可以來台灣這個還有很多很多人搞不清楚這個還有很多人以為是我們陸委會禁止大陸旅客自由行來台灣其實我們在這邊還是要清楚的說明是大陸方面禁止他們的自由行旅客來台灣對不對對"},{"start":9938.666,"end":9963.189,"text":"謝謝那我們不斷的釋出這些感染值但是過程裡面還是遇到中國沒有善意的回應那總是把九二共識掛在前面說你如果沒有承認九二共識你就不要來談團客或者是你如果沒有承認九二共識你就不要來跟我們做相關的談判甚至現在今夏的這個快艇的事件是一個執法"},{"start":9963.749,"end":9963.769,"text":"謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":9987.267,"end":10003.127,"text":"目前大家也都很期待嘛剛剛有很多委員也期待說那6月之後的團呢暑假之後的團呢目前中國方面這些國台辦方面有沒有任何的跡象顯示說有可能有機會可以談"},{"start":10004.092,"end":10028.392,"text":"一般來講我跟委員報告跟委員會報告大概基本上我們在觀察中共的一些政策或是說他的面向大概都會跟他們自己的政治時程有一點關聯目前來看他們的兩會也是我們觀察他未來的政治走向包括他對國際的這樣的一個因為我們基本上也都必須要跟國際做相當程度的"},{"start":10029.272,"end":10057.031,"text":"連結跟觀察所以我想兩會之後我們會有一些相關的觀察報告那我想我們也會提供給交通部來做參考好 謝謝主委目前為止我們內政委員會的委員我聽起來大部分支持對等也就是說我想這是朝野的利益都應該對我們都支持對等但是我要加一點就是說其實我更支持我們行政院包含陸委會要用政策性的調整"},{"start":10058.132,"end":10083.065,"text":"那也可以符合到所有旅行業者的期待如果說未來有機會可以交流的話大家要知道這是一個對等的交流讓我們國內的這些餐廳旅館業者也有機會享受到開放之後的這個旅行的紅利不是只有我們的旅行團出去那邊記得中國的邏輯人民幣很香你要聽他的話"},{"start":10083.945,"end":10103.777,"text":"那所以基於對等的原則的話我們也希望可以促進臺灣島內的觀光也可以蓬勃的發展,謝謝是的,我想交通部也保留所有的彈性只要對方有調整,我們就會相對應的回應好,謝謝謝謝博弈委員質詢,謝謝主委,謝謝次長我們現在休息三分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":10536.487,"end":10539.87,"text":"現在我們繼續開會我們請張志倫委員發言主席好各位委員好各位我們官員好各位媒體好先請大家好是不是請我們邱主委跟我們的次長有請主委和次長謝謝張委員好我先請次長"},{"start":10566.928,"end":10584.799,"text":"首先要先感謝次長因為本席非常關心中和的交通所以目前關於我們中和國道3號有關於這個從土城往中和方向北向的出口其實高空局非常積極努力來去做一個改善的工作那相信這個進度會蠻快就完成的"},{"start":10585.179,"end":10588.04,"text":"請問次長您知道現在我們台灣的旅行觀光業者有4000多家的業者對於交通部現在從這個農曆年前開放台灣的這個旅行業者可以組團到大陸去旅遊"},{"start":10605.589,"end":10616.286,"text":"而且在我們的小年夜之後就禁止了只開放了3個月請問這個次長這邊我們是依據哪一條法令來去做對體行業者做這個限制"},{"start":10617.129,"end":10640.932,"text":"報告委員我們在旅行業管理規則49條第19款有說旅行業者要依照觀光署的指導來決定他們的相關的這個作業所以基本上我們是提醒他們說在這段期間既然已經組團3月1號到5月31號我請教一下因為就我得知當時有依照觀光發展條例第53條"},{"start":10642.473,"end":10659.621,"text":"的規定說因為這樣子的行為會傷害國家的利益請問你們有這樣子回答我們的旅行業者嗎那個是最高階的就是說不確定因素可能會損害國家利益但是真正的授權是在66條"},{"start":10660.782,"end":10688.191,"text":"好 這就是本席我認為你們第一個沒有跟我們國內的觀光業者充分去溝通因為觀光業者他們的想法是說這是這個有跟針對觀光發展觀光條例第53條是僅限於對旅行業經營的管理它是應該是沒有辦法擴張到禁止旅行團組團去某一些區域是不是已經逾越法定的一些規定你們的想法是不是已經逾越了法定的規定"},{"start":10689.54,"end":10709.351,"text":"跟委員報告,發展觀光條例第66條,要求授權給交通部,就是目的世界主管機關,訂定相關的管理規則所以我們在旅行業管理規則裡面,第49條有相關的規定那我請問民法的部分,是不是因為會有損國家利益?民法是第66條,授權給交通部訂定,66條"},{"start":10713.191,"end":10715.236,"text":"那你剛剛講的那個是發財的部分跟相關的後果"},{"start":10720.12,"end":10746.215,"text":"所以本席要了解是說因為當時你們跟我們所有的觀光旅行業者是說用觀光發展條例第53條這新聞上都可以查得到說有損及國家的利益啊那現在你們是改口說不是用這條嗎跟委員報告53條裡面有三項嘛裡面有一項是損害國家利益損害國家利益因為還沒有還不確定因素發生所以我們是用第66條授權的部分"},{"start":10748.135,"end":10763.501,"text":"我認為這樣就是法令的無限的擴張所以本席這邊要拜託我們交通部這邊如果旅行業者如果真的去帶團去大陸旅遊如果真的有損及國家的利益的話"},{"start":10764.121,"end":10764.561,"text":"請問我們次長的部分"},{"start":10785.224,"end":10800.694,"text":"這個有關於這個觀光旅行業者其實有強烈跟你們表達說當你們3月份開放以後3、4、5、6月尤其4、5、6月它是一個一個檔期喔很多的觀光業者其實6月份的時候都已經下訂了不管是機票以及大陸的這個"},{"start":10801.474,"end":10802.435,"text":"提出多少賠償金額?"},{"start":10822.03,"end":10836.204,"text":"跟委員報告我是不是請觀光署跟您報告一下基本上3月到5月我們讓他如期出團那6月6月跟7月尤其6月份可以提前出團或是併團那如果沒辦法提前出團的話要如何補償這些旅行觀光業者的損失"},{"start":10837.981,"end":10863.678,"text":"那損失大概估計多少錢,要用什麼樣的經費來去支付?跟委員做一個說明,那3月到5月的部分,我們目前掌握大概是有4000團。我說6月份,不好意思。那6月部分的話,他現在有三個政策,第一個是說他可以併到3月到5月的這個部分。如果不能併的話,大概有多少?第二個部分是可以,就是說到改變其他的目的地,那第三個就是可以退回解約。解約的損失是誰來補償?"},{"start":10865.922,"end":10879.574,"text":"那就要看他們當初定期的那個契約的一個期限所以我跟次長報告就是臺灣的觀光業者沒有辦法接受的地方這些解約需要旅行業者自行去負擔那這邊我要跟大家跟次長報告其實當時有開一個記者會"},{"start":10882.016,"end":10899.366,"text":"旅行業者當時已經有在記者會裡面講了他們不排除520的時候來去賴清德總統的就職典禮來給他祝賀來表達他們強烈的訴求那我希望的是說請這個次長的部分一定要跟觀光旅行業者"},{"start":10900.186,"end":10921.52,"text":"來做一個很好的溝通跟討論好好的去補償不要讓這些觀光旅行業者他們沒有辦法得到訴求而在賴清德總統520就職典禮那一天來去做一個恭賀的行為我覺得這是非常不當的所以拜託希望說這個次長這邊因為今天部長不在是不是可以保證我可以做一個好好的溝通520的事還不會發生這樣的事情是"},{"start":10923.997,"end":10943.315,"text":"跟委員報告,觀光署在2月19日有找業者來溝通基本上也要讓業者知道這是兩邊互動的一個過程因為是為了長久旅遊跟觀光發展的長治久安所以我們也期待在3月到5月之間如果陸方有善意的回應,能夠開放團客進來其實這個我們也可以繼續延續下去"},{"start":10947.279,"end":10970.248,"text":"所以還是要拜託次長,因為這邊你目前為止還是沒有一個明確的回答我說,不管是6月份旅行業者的損失,或是7、8月份有些特殊地方他們的訂金是如何來助作補償。所以我想以這樣的回答,觀光業者是不會,不太會妥協,也不太會認同。所以520的部分,我希望你在520的時候不要像本席講的,沒有辦法完成這件事情。"},{"start":10970.788,"end":10990.219,"text":"那最後也要跟你報告,因為今天我們的部長不在,其實部長在108年的時候其實有代理過這個交通部長所以我也要這邊有一個統計數字跟你報告在108年的時候,台灣去大陸的旅客人次是230萬人次"},{"start":10992.66,"end":11017.318,"text":"大陸來台灣的旅客是將近180萬人次所以我們的邱部長、次長你們應該非常了解其實過去在疫情之前兩岸的旅遊觀光是非常的順暢的所以我希望說部長這邊跟次長這邊可以盡量來努力回復疫情之前兩岸的觀光旅遊的問題好那現在我是不是也可以請我們的主委一起來我有些事要跟你們兩個請問一下"},{"start":11019.88,"end":11038.353,"text":"這邊就是我要特別請到兩位都可以一起回答這邊就跟你們請教因為你們現在限制我們台灣可以組團到大陸去旅遊是限制到5月31號所以是拜託部長、次長跟我們敬愛的主委你們是不是可以組一團到大陸去旅遊"},{"start":11039.313,"end":11053.585,"text":"順便大家說見面三分情有旅遊就有溝通有溝通就可以大家可以更順暢的去去來做一個未來兩岸的主席不好意思我可以再兩岸如果有溝通如果你們願意有"},{"start":11053.985,"end":11054.225,"text":"我願意報名參加"},{"start":11080.38,"end":11098.27,"text":"我大概事實上過去這30幾年我去大陸大概快要20次以上了那我請問一下從疫情之後你有去大陸過嗎?沒有對啊那我意思是說既然我們都已經開放了從3月到5月31號可以開放那我們是不是請次長也來回答一下"},{"start":11104.346,"end":11126.983,"text":"有沒有這樣的考慮?為了我們台灣兩岸其實我們是沒有禁止自由行去大陸所以我們是可以去參觀那現在問題是他沒有開放團客重點是我的意思是說就是因為沒有開放團客尤其交通部他的一直的表述是說我們就是等待善意的等待陸方這邊的回應所以我認為可以主動出擊"},{"start":11132.307,"end":11148.779,"text":"市長或是主委你們就組一個觀光團帶著我們旅行業者去強烈的去講說過去不管是疫情前我們是如何去做交流的為什麼疫情完以後不能做交流我覺得不要太多政治口水應該要主動出擊而不是一直等大陸擔當的回應"},{"start":11153.302,"end":11167.328,"text":"我請教一下有沒有辦法去大陸去做一個旅行團因為是可以開放團客去大陸嘛有沒有辦法開放就組一個團由次長跟主委組一個團去大陸做參訪"},{"start":11170.066,"end":11189.172,"text":"我想這個可能你先去了解一下對岸如果願意讓我去我是所以你不排斥嗎我不是不排斥我剛剛講你如果組得成的話我報名你的團因為我跟你講我們是民意代表是監督單位你們有行政權所以你不排斥嗎我不是不排斥我很樂觀其成"},{"start":11190.663,"end":11214.04,"text":"我不是不排斥而已最後還是要拜託我們的主委因為其實我跟你報告剛剛有報告這個人數其實台灣去大陸的人次從疫情之前是有230萬人所以就算你沒有辦法台灣沒辦法開放團客還是有非常多的台灣的人會去大陸所以請你們一定要好好來處理這件事情保障台灣人到大陸旅遊的安全可以嗎"},{"start":11214.84,"end":11233.112,"text":"對,委員我想你剛剛提到的不錯就是我們也要讓大陸的政府知道說我們也期待他們的人都過來兩岸這樣的一個交流其實可以更加的認識跟理解我想這是善意的這個增加了好,謝謝主委好,謝謝張主任委員的質詢也謝謝主委、次長以及署長,謝謝繼續我們請丁學中委員來質詢,謝謝"},{"start":11243.666,"end":11255.18,"text":"感謝主席,請我們主委跟次長,啊,主委你先坐下,你先坐下,現在先請次長是不是?好,我們先請次長,謝謝。因為,跟次長請教一下,我們在理解國家最重要的是誠信對不對?"},{"start":11263.804,"end":11266.065,"text":"政策在形成過程會先溝通溝通的過程會看實際是否成熟所以這整個過程是有這樣的節奏"},{"start":11291.442,"end":11293.223,"text":"市長你請教我們這個開放遊大陸這個政策重大的一個政策是很重要的政策團遊的那個"},{"start":11309.347,"end":11326.437,"text":"應該這樣講,我們交通部在過程中間是希望能夠促成這件事情,但是過程也要看大陸的善意,誠如剛剛報告的我們去年8月,8月就已經有這個參與。現在說6月以後就不可以組團的意思就是大陸會評沒有善意就對了。"},{"start":11327.277,"end":11339.148,"text":"因為到現在都沒有開放,從我們去年開始說到現在都沒有說他可以來。我們現在自由行可以去大陸,他都沒有辦法來啊。我們在正式的,我們是民主國家嘛,我們對外都一直有這樣講,也釋放善意,從8月開始就一直這樣。"},{"start":11350.879,"end":11351.699,"text":"主團互入也是我們賴總統的一個政策"},{"start":11373.03,"end":11373.09,"text":"我們歡迎陸客來臺"},{"start":11404.012,"end":11410.101,"text":"貴女姐,我們就送我們這個旅遊業者一個大禮物,就是進團令"},{"start":11411.805,"end":11430.44,"text":"委員我們要說,我們是希望促成,所以前幾年背過、摘過,到今年初都希望說,我們的善意可以得到回應,但是一直到2月7號以前,都等不到消息。那個時候你們有對應就對了,你們有跟他們對應就對了,你們如果沒有跟選舉那邊就算了,因為那時候江湖跟他們對應說,他們沒有跟他們對應,江湖春天,對啦,跟選舉說這裡,"},{"start":11440.148,"end":11443.838,"text":"跟選舉所在再來再來算法啦吼啊怎麼會突然會受到"},{"start":11445.507,"end":11446.347,"text":"主團行自由行有什麼活動?"},{"start":11473.915,"end":11474.175,"text":"是因為這樣才會進行"},{"start":11501.782,"end":11513.873,"text":"應該說都沒有對等的開放,連自由行都沒有開,剛剛主委也報告他對130個國家,連港澳都開放了,但是他都沒有對我們。我是覺得啦,我是覺得吼,交通應該是比較重要,我會覺得交通比較重要。"},{"start":11519.258,"end":11521.599,"text":"我們現在不是說遇到大陸的這個我們外國營業群的總統來跟你們請教我們是因為我們之前你們也知道之前因為以前疫情而我們這麼多旅遊業的時候因為疫情的關係這麼多公司都倒閉了對啦 啊後來兩位齁"},{"start":11542.052,"end":11569.271,"text":"現在疫情已經過了,我們旅遊觀光都已經開放了,已經都開放了,這麼多人都很熱鬧的去大陸選擇發貨是怎樣?剛才我們的委員、立委同事,他在說在請我們主委的組團,我去參考,我去參考我一定會去,因為我很希望看到什麼,兵馬俑跟紫禁城,"},{"start":11571.828,"end":11572.269,"text":"由於這進行．"},{"start":11574.622,"end":11582.686,"text":"有經過一個反滲透條例,反滲透法,要做到單元訂定,要做一個修訂,再走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走"},{"start":11602.039,"end":11604.642,"text":"我再跟你講一個趣味,宗教觀光這樣有什麼?宗教觀光,有什麼組團?宗教交流。委員,我們自由行沒有金,你要自己去都可以。今年,我們婦人館完整,奧風公,"},{"start":11622.216,"end":11630.943,"text":"因智慧：因智慧去大陸做宗教的一個交流：智慧：還要讓他們請施主委一人開門往外去：結果當然出了一條紙："},{"start":11637.418,"end":11640.5,"text":"總幹事還說幾個月我們自己拿錢去搞好我只是說這算什麼可以拿去做的事情是我們公安局不夠狹窄的不是你們公安局狹窄的那是地安黨有狹窄的可能啦 可能一個原因就是什麼算了算了"},{"start":11662.592,"end":11666.173,"text":"所以我覺得這種惡習一直在存在我會覺得政府要讓我們明確保障到國人旅遊的權利以及我們國人的一些文化交流的權利"},{"start":11685.22,"end":11710.821,"text":"對啦,我是覺得這一定要給我們做一個比較好的一個報告給委員報告齁,我們自由行沒有金,但是團課的部分本來是希望開放嘛,所以因為他們對方沒有給我們善意的回應但是我們也是說3月1號到5月31號還是讓原來九團進去降低大家的這個不方便啦這一段期間希望他們能有善意的回應啦"},{"start":11711.101,"end":11712.421,"text":"五二零以後的事情看未來的"},{"start":11735.45,"end":11742.432,"text":"所以我聽到你講的,人家520反省喔,人家520不就讓人家520再選好這件事,你當總統還沒起來,你就選好這件事?我們希望把路破好,如果順利,我們繼續走,如果沒有順利,當然到時候要調整。你會想像這樣有什麼好,其實齁"},{"start":11762.478,"end":11765.619,"text":"其實你們的可能啦,我們都尊重啦,但是齁,我們是依依說若驕啦,我們是依依說,我們這個旅遊若驕,他們的權利啦,真的,我就像剛才說的,當進行疫情的時候,我們這個若驕已經犧牲這麼多,多了這麼多經歷,讓他們現在有機會可以給他們複製,我們希望說,當這個"},{"start":11788.413,"end":11807.257,"text":"其實去大陸會議員的人是很多的我們說這個也可以討論的好山好水好風景和我們台灣一樣大家也希望去看一樣的一個民族和不同的風景這樣也很多人大家希望去看我們不要拋開那個政治立場"},{"start":11814.798,"end":11815.358,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11832.725,"end":11833.505,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11853.515,"end":11860.718,"text":"主委、議員可以跟交通部作一個再次的一個大家溝通一下,以我們的國人的權利為重。感謝主席。"},{"start":11872.022,"end":11872.522,"text":"麥玉珍委員主席"},{"start":11903.732,"end":11924.131,"text":"想要請教一下部長去年明確表示說3月1號就是要確定解除禁團令恢復兩岸的觀光旅遊但是呢又在今年2月7號又宣布說那個赴陸旅行團要停止"},{"start":11926.304,"end":11947.242,"text":"所以這樣子的政治急轉彎．不但造成就是旅遊業的虧損．還有就是造成更多的民怨．隨後部長又再表示說．重啟那個禁團令是不是．是不得已的決定．是因為經過各部會討論．也一再強調說．"},{"start":11952.746,"end":11968.462,"text":"中方需要釋出善意才能恢復雙方的交流而最近就發生金門的事故兩岸緊張的關係再度升溫如果是那個善意沒有釋出的狀況下這樣的話我們的禁團令就"},{"start":11973.507,"end":11974.968,"text":"我們是希望能夠溝通業者及早準備從去年8月就是這個態度"},{"start":11998.083,"end":12015.701,"text":"我們部長在以前是希望業者說既然有這個方向請大家開始準備可是在今年以來有一些狀況就是剛剛報告的可能在外交上在飛航路徑上都有一些我們認為不是很正面的互動"},{"start":12017.482,"end":12044.631,"text":"在去年以來宣布說希望能今年3月左右開始準備開放可是我們也等不到消息一直到2月7號以前都沒有正面的回應所以這個促使政府再要綜合考慮整個政策所以我們在2月7號就先宣布已經組團了3月1號到5月底還是如期5月以後的就併團或是提前那如果這段期間如果能夠得到3月回應我們會隨時檢討"},{"start":12046.252,"end":12049.897,"text":"所以還是有條件也正面open來看這件事情"},{"start":12051.535,"end":12075.374,"text":"所以意思說我們釋出善意,別人不同意,我們就是照著別人的不同意,我們就是不跟,是這樣子嗎?所以說是我們的決定還是說別人的決定?我們歡迎他們過來,但是如果一直都沒有,我們已經有開放自由行,一般民眾可以用自由行去參訪或是去旅遊"},{"start":12077.897,"end":12092.339,"text":"團課的部分目前為止,因為大陸還沒有開放團課,我們就不對等開放所以是我們的規劃就是他們開放我們開放,他們不開放我們不開放,是這樣子的意思嗎?是,政策上是這樣"},{"start":12094.321,"end":12113.03,"text":"從8月開始,去年8月就一直是這個態度不是,我們也主動開放希望他們能夠組團,或是開放相關的社會協會但是我們陸委會在早在去年8月就是說公布恢復"},{"start":12114.47,"end":12128.204,"text":"兩岸觀光旅遊的規劃對於旅遊人數所限制2000人但是我們交通部這邊又說11月份表示說團客到中國就不限人數這樣子顯示兩個步調不同"},{"start":12132.848,"end":12145.241,"text":"本會議是不同時期的評估依據也不一樣我們2000人是用2019雙方都還在對等往來的時候他們多少人到我們這邊來我們用那個時候的"},{"start":12148.264,"end":12172.98,"text":"總人數去平均計算2000人那我們也提到這個將來如果有增加我們也會隨時增加這個是在過去兩岸的觀光的交流上一開始是設定3000人接著放4000人最後是5000人這個都是按照過去的往例我們這2000人的估算是8月那一次的估算那用2019年入客到底多少人到我們這邊來那我們用這樣的基準去算"},{"start":12175.822,"end":12196.85,"text":"那當然11月份之後也許這個交通部他們根據旅行業者的反應什麼等等啊他們也可能有覺得可能需要有彈性的必要但是這個都最後都可以在呃跨部會的協商裡面再去做調整所以還沒有跨部會協商就公佈啊所以就就講他也沒有講多少人他也沒有講多少人對對對對但是實際上要多少人最後還是我們會跨部會協商"},{"start":12203.052,"end":12225.063,"text":"在還沒有跨部會協商之前那交通部他們期待因為業者跟他們的反應他們一定會反應給相關部門嘛那我們就講說這個最後還是可以再來做這個相關人數的討論就像我剛剛提到的過去一開始也是三千人再來變四千人再來變五千人所以都是隨著不同階段不同的需求的評估"},{"start":12226.57,"end":12254.526,"text":"是,是說希望就是我們就是大家就是共同來去提出問題解決問題所以希望說兩個大部會就是要同調沒有的話不同調的話我們是跟著政府的步調走這樣子我們觀光旅遊還是我們的就是旅客就沒辦法說是誰說的算所以說希望就是兩個部會要同調這樣子大家才能好做事"},{"start":12255.026,"end":12258.169,"text":"謝謝委員的指教還有就是說因為我們覺得說兩個部會都講的不一致但是在不同時間點對不同時間點這樣子的話換天換地我們要怎麼我們要聽誰的對吧所以我們就想說在2024年選前的時候呢我們就說要解除"},{"start":12278.149,"end":12278.589,"text":"選前開放,選後禁止。"},{"start":12302.697,"end":12327.003,"text":"八月就講雙方對等,我們開放的時間點就是他們開放的時間點對,但是開放的時間就是在說總統就職的時候嘛,就是那段時間看他們什麼時候,因為當初也期待是不是盡快的溝通之後,越短時間只要他們開放,所以八月宣布,如果他九月就宣布說他們的人要過來的話,那我們也可能九月就"},{"start":12327.903,"end":12331.444,"text":"對,所以我們就覺得是說讓人家誤會就是說一開始就很清楚是對等的啦"},{"start":12346.608,"end":12358.044,"text":"一開始就講對等開放他們開放我們就開放所以如果是說我們的主委是這麼說再請教一下所以說這開放的部分一直在強調說他們開放我們開放他們不開放我們開放誰來做協調誰來做溝通"},{"start":12364.272,"end":12387.667,"text":"誰來去做這個部分就是我們的官方這邊跟對岸的官方來溝通嗎還是誰來溝通才能達到開放相關部門都會啦交通部有交通部的那陸委會有陸委會的所以陸委會直接在對岸溝通嗎我們基本上是有幾個啦比如說海際會也是一個啦那其他的相關部門跟包括"},{"start":12388.694,"end":12416.235,"text":"我講白了委員啦台商啦等等我們是有相關的單位會去探尋對岸的這樣的一個意思所以說別人溝通就是先探尋他的有沒有這樣的一個意願那意願他意願也許他設定搞不好是1000人而已或是這個還要再先表達你去溝通嗎還是聽說的還是別人跟你說的"},{"start":12417.396,"end":12428.921,"text":"當然不會是我啦當然不會是我啦因為我們剛剛不是講嗎兩岸其實過去30幾年來很多的事務上都已經建立了一個基本的機制"},{"start":12430.579,"end":12455.743,"text":"所以基本的基礎就是說就是經過海理會跟有海理會的溝通那也是其中之一其中之一他們的溝通所以回來跟你報告所以你就聽他們說海理會如果有訊息的話是跟交通部因為他們是交通部你們是因為有海理會的性質有他們講還有兩位"},{"start":12460.367,"end":12478.541,"text":"我們是一個非常開放的社會所以基本上業者們也會把我們的訊息帶過去第二個我們在媒體上甚至在不同的場合都會用這樣的態度來對外說明所以基本上對外是講說我們是開放的那也希望促成兩岸互動"},{"start":12479.641,"end":12498.238,"text":"所以我們才會留一個尾巴說這段期間只要有任何正面的回應我們都會繼續往開放方向來走是因為我們希望是說有效的溝通管道才能達到的效力不能是說別人說的哪一個會來說的變成不是我們是真真的我們去"},{"start":12499.517,"end":12499.797,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":12517.558,"end":12545.294,"text":"希望說我們就是要有效的管道來溝通因為現在等一下就可以等一下不可以這樣子到最後誰來賠償誰來負責所以希望說我們這邊的就是要有雙方溝通的管道要有讓有效的溝通還有就是如何去溝通讓這件事情達成共識才能讓說不管是旅遊業者還是消費者才有保障"},{"start":12546.194,"end":12560.443,"text":"就是以上的報告希望積極的推動謝謝好,非常謝謝余政委員的質詢也謝謝主委、次長還有副署長繼續我們請吳清明召委請召委來質詢,謝謝好,謝謝我們召委我們與會同仁請我們陸委會主委好,有請我們的主委,謝謝"},{"start":12579.838,"end":12591.783,"text":"108年的觀光校會已經出現了逆超早上很多同仁都在提起現在我們的逆超光是108年我們統計就是超過66億那這樣對我們的整個我們的平等互惠的原則就產生了一個變數那本席這邊也請我們諸位來講未來"},{"start":12603.308,"end":12617.632,"text":"我們是不是跟中國大陸跟我們的對岸怎樣來聯繫才能達到我們的平等互惠的原則這是我們國家的利益為原則之下我們要怎樣來跟對方我們的對岸來做一個溝通良善的一個來促進我們兩岸的交流"},{"start":12626.475,"end":12651.246,"text":"我想第一個我們在去年8月的這個新聞的記者會裡面會同交通部我們大概已經多次的表達那我想媒體也報導大陸對方也有一些新聞的回應也就是說他已經知道我們所設定的希望雙方能夠平等互惠對等開放那當時就已經做了這樣的一個宣布那對岸他也了解這樣的一個情勢"},{"start":12652.347,"end":12674.509,"text":"後來我們也給一個一個月的這樣的一個雙方的這個準備期或是什麼等等那當然在這裡面就透過或者說業者也好或者是相關的熱心的人士也好都有做彼此意願的這樣的一個巡打但是呢一開始他們可能因為一些考量或是什麼等等並沒有明確的表達要談或不要談"},{"start":12676.01,"end":12677.811,"text":"臺灣的總統大選等等,對岸在這個議題上更加保守,才會有這樣的變化,特別是選後的變化。"},{"start":12694.164,"end":12708.36,"text":"本席的建議還是是不是我們嘗試跟對岸來一個熱線來一個熱線大家來溝通因為對我們國家整體的利益我們還是要鎖住"},{"start":12709.36,"end":12735.105,"text":"還有一個平等的互惠的原則我們還是要堅持我們的立場那是不是可以跟對岸來講對岸要是要恢復你看我們剛才我們的交通部長王國才在交通委員會他還特別提到3月到5月就將近4000多團要到中國大陸超過10萬人這個"},{"start":12737.845,"end":12762.031,"text":"我們已經釋出這個善意是不是對方他也要讓我們釋出他的善意這樣我們才能夠談下去這對整個兩岸的交流是一個很大的注意我覺得委員的說法是非常好我希望這個對岸的政府也能夠看到委員的這樣的一個說法代表台灣的民意到底怎麼樣在看待這件事情因為我們國家的利益我們還是要鎖住"},{"start":12764.711,"end":12778.519,"text":"主委這一點我們就針對問題我們來跟他們做溝通那現在變成早上還在講M503這個航線這個航線出現了變化我們交通部處長來回答委員好主委你先回座好了你辛苦了"},{"start":12796.061,"end":12797.064,"text":"委員您提到委員長的電話"},{"start":12801.325,"end":12829.596,"text":"大陸在1月30號宣布說2月1號起503這個北向南的航路本來是在503上面偏西6海里來運作但是2月1號以後就不偏西了就回到原的現場那第二個呢開放它這個122、123122剛好就在我們馬祖附近123在金門附近原來是這個往西現在它開放西往東飛"},{"start":12831.776,"end":12854.908,"text":"這個過程太過充足也沒有跟我們溝通那基本上5034過境航路他有點像高速公路從3萬尺要降到平面的話他有一個過路的階段所以必須要跟我們的這個馬祖金門的終端管制去做協商這樣萬一有狀況的時候比較安全對飛航比較安全所以我們是希望大陸就這些事情也應該跟我們善意的互動"},{"start":12856.268,"end":12873.3,"text":"這是一個事件．結合其他事件政府統一考慮就是說．既然目前都沒有善意的互動．原定3月要開放的部分．我們就先開放3個月試行．就是您剛提的．讓大陸看到我們的善意"},{"start":12874.08,"end":12886.591,"text":"這三個月的參議員有將近10萬人,4000多團。以希望他們在這段時間審慎的考慮,是不是開放大陸的自由行跟團客來台方,這樣比較正面的互動,是有利兩岸的溝通。"},{"start":12887.982,"end":12903.489,"text":"既有我們M503既有我們國家的安全、人民百姓大家的出團的安全性我們還是要堅持啦那最主要是我們也可以從我們觀光署這邊的統計你像在108年108年共有400多萬的人次到對岸去旅遊"},{"start":12913.994,"end":12935.308,"text":"在疫情後下降了將近10倍剩41萬其實台灣到各國去旅遊我們的比例還是非常高那基於說我們兩岸的互等的條件下我們的不管是我們交通部還是我們的觀光署這邊還是要"},{"start":12937.449,"end":12965.509,"text":"是不是也是要充分的大家來做一個溝通這是基於我們國家整個人民的旅遊的安全性還有旅遊的品質我們國人戶外旅遊當然安全第一第二個我們也希望各地的外國觀光客都能夠來台灣所以基本上我們對其他國家沒有設限的原因是人家也沒有對我們設限"},{"start":12966.71,"end":12966.91,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12984.804,"end":12985.765,"text":"我們在大陸也有設辦事處"},{"start":13008.598,"end":13031.99,"text":"基本上大陸在台灣也有派代表所以基本上就是官方多元都有旅行業者也有所以這個是多項多元的溝通那其實政府態度很明確我們是正面open開放大陸旅遊來台的對我們台灣旅行界有4000多家對他們不要造成太大的衝擊"},{"start":13033.01,"end":13033.03,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":13051.788,"end":13051.969,"text":"臨時提案"},{"start":13067.611,"end":13094.885,"text":"有鑒於臺東地理位置特殊,雖近年熱氣球嘉年華活動引起國人熱烈前往,然受限於交通往返,國內旅客仍佔多數。臺東為觀光大縣,其觀光客群理應朝向多元發展。為有效解決國外旅客赴臺東不便利性之問題,應可參考花蓮機場先前的包機直航模式,無論引進入客日本、韓國或東南亞旅客,是為協助臺東觀光升級之動力。"},{"start":13095.785,"end":13112.937,"text":"原此要求陸委會及交通部應積極推展國際級兩岸團客觀光行程．並建請交通部編列相關預算整建臺東機場．完善臺東機場起降大型客機能量提案人黃建斌、徐欣雲訊讀完畢好"},{"start":13117.967,"end":13127.572,"text":"本案已經經過提案委員同意修正了然後呢照剛才宣讀的這個年案的內容我們就讓他通過好嗎好謝謝大家辛苦繼續我們來繼續開會我們請鄭天才委員來質詢謝謝"},{"start":13171.584,"end":13183.794,"text":"主席、各位委員有請這個交通部有請交通部次長,謝謝還有觀光署好,觀光署副署長次長好兩岸的關係以我們的年紀都應該知道"},{"start":13197.1,"end":13223.214,"text":"從這個我們就不要講很早啊從這個蔣經國到李登輝到陳水扁總統我們就先到這裡這個兩岸的關係這個很多的變化起起伏伏對不對那台灣的自稱民主法治的國家自由民主這個很重要"},{"start":13225.747,"end":13252.603,"text":"從過去這個蔣經國時代開始這個探親嘛開放探親都是我們先啊都是台灣先啊從開放探親到後來的這個自由型組團請問一下組團台灣的人民自由的要去大陸什麼時候開始"},{"start":13256.715,"end":13257.596,"text":"我請教一下你知道有"},{"start":13287.435,"end":13314.686,"text":"大陸發射飛彈的時間嗎應該是1995年吧1995年1996年臺海危機臺灣海峽飛彈危機我們有沒有停止這個自由行所以這個部分這個是我們作為交通部作為觀光署"},{"start":13317.229,"end":13329.497,"text":"為了人民的自由為了人民觀光的自由旅行業的這些這些產業要去說服要去跟這個陸委會甚至國安局"},{"start":13341.187,"end":13360.963,"text":"國安單位要去跟他們說明我們不能倒退啊現在是倒退啊現在是倒退啊我們自由行還是開放的我們自由行還是可以去大陸目前沒有進但是不能組團啊這有差別啊對不對好我們就看"},{"start":13369.517,"end":13387.121,"text":"105年起是因為大陸105年起因為蔡英文執政了是大陸開始做了很多的開始限制108年8月1號起暫停47個城市大陸居民來台那我們還是繼續嘛"},{"start":13390.441,"end":13409.838,"text":"對不對 那個次長我們還是繼續組團去嘛是陸方禁止他們對啊 陸方禁止啦我們現在變成說陸方因為不讓他們來不讓大陸人民來 所以我們就好 什麼M503那個跟飛蕩危機如何相比啊"},{"start":13418.685,"end":13440.735,"text":"對不對所以政治的因素絕對會有但是怎麼樣去欠因為我是事務官出身國民黨執政、民進黨執政我在中央人民會服務都經歷過民進黨執政、國民黨執政都經歷過這些政務官"},{"start":13448.208,"end":13473.834,"text":"政務官沒辦法他有他的不同的使命但是我們作為事務官光署你是事務官署長你是現在政務官嗎事務官要改了副署長是事務官事務官所以我們要去欠要欠的話當然要說服的資料提供說服的資料資訊對不對"},{"start":13477.894,"end":13504.774,"text":"說服的資訊不然的話一直一直去爭論那個沒有沒有再比以現在的危機還沒有到飛彈危機吧發射飛彈喔所以這個部分這個兩岸的關係起起伏伏會因著這個政策執政者的政策"},{"start":13506.549,"end":13527.079,"text":"會有很多的變動但是怎麼樣救人民的潛意人民的潛意是最優先的所以這個部分當然你們也是受害了你們一直被旅行社罵"},{"start":13529.864,"end":13558.853,"text":"但是該反映的還是要反映是跟委員報告其實您提的很重要我們基於目的事業主管集會我們會聽各方業者的意見所以為什麼在過去結合陸委會跟經濟部其實就希望這個方向是往正面的來開放為主但是也要等對方有正面互動因為國內有一堆旅行業者、觀光業者、參與業者他們希望陸客來台"},{"start":13559.833,"end":13560.713,"text":"不管是名稱叫什麼都不重要就是臺灣的人民"},{"start":13595.853,"end":13612.9,"text":"我先北開大陸我請教一下我們跟其他國家其他國家有開放組團或是他們的人民自由過來或是他們禁止"},{"start":13614.914,"end":13620.739,"text":"哪一個國家我們就先擠先擠這個離大陸最近的北韓北韓他們的人民可以自由的來嗎?他們可以組團來嗎?"},{"start":13632.386,"end":13633.186,"text":"從觀光業觀光業是一個產業"},{"start":13654.026,"end":13676.765,"text":"這個我們必須要去考量當然人民的安全當然是第一考量在人民的安全並沒有危害的情況之下這個難免會有政治的因素但是這些政治的因素我們要強烈的去說明"},{"start":13679.401,"end":13679.661,"text":"謝謝委員指教"},{"start":13698.891,"end":13713.715,"text":"好,非常謝謝鄭天才委員質詢,謝謝也謝謝次長跟副署長。繼續我們請沈伯陽委員來質詢。我們待會到這個先一鳳委員質詢結束一下,我們休息3分鐘好不好,謝謝。請沈伯陽委員,謝謝。有請交通部次長,謝謝。好,我們有請次長。"},{"start":13731.223,"end":13750.472,"text":"政委員好好 謝謝主席 謝謝次長那這個一樣非本委我們只有8分鐘所以我想說也是快速帶過那我非本委8對所以這個就是因為剛好就在前幾天這邊也有提到這個中國的灰色地帶作戰"},{"start":13751.633,"end":13772.045,"text":"灰色地帶作戰在前面我們提到是比較偏軍事的層面那軍事的層面有某種程度還是要我們怎麼預判要怎麼做透明化但現在我們面臨的今天的比較不是偏軍事的狀況但我認為還是有很多地方是可以適用那在這邊我們先來看一下就是說因為畢竟中國的這個灰色地帶作戰在對各個國家"},{"start":13773.766,"end":13791.424,"text":"現在對台灣是最多的通常來講他們的作戰分成四個不同的層面有軍事的有我比較擅長的資訊類的有經濟的還有地緣政治的我們現在面臨的當然比較多是經濟相關經濟相關其實以往我們遇到的比較多可能是農產品"},{"start":13792.705,"end":13795.808,"text":"在這些他們的手段當中我發現在我們的應對當然這邊我們今天經濟部並不在場但是我們很多時候都是比較被動的回應"},{"start":13817.345,"end":13843.257,"text":"例如說他今天弄的是鳳梨那我們解決的就是鳳梨那想辦法透過外銷的方式讓他可以銷到日本等等之類的那今天我們遇到的狀況呢又再更往前進一步因為他已經不只指示經濟的利益那我相信在前面很多的委員也都有提到業者的損失等等之類的但這次還有牽涉到就是國人必須他旅遊嘛所以旅遊簡單來講他本來就有到哪裡的自由"},{"start":13843.757,"end":13844.278,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":13858.695,"end":13879.324,"text":"那既然你是限制團課 那我們也用團課相關的限制所以第一個我想問一下 就是在我們做這個協調機制的過程當中 這個所謂的對等原則有必要是一定都是要跟他相同的手段嗎 譬如說他今天用的是旅遊 我們就一定要用旅遊反制還是說我們可以用其他的手段 這個有沒有在當時的評估狀況"},{"start":13881.91,"end":13897.66,"text":"報告委員其實您提的很重要政府在處理事情不會只用一個單一手段會綜合各方的訊息跟資訊所以即使大陸禁止其實它不只禁止團客它連自由行動都沒有開放"},{"start":13898.661,"end":13919.559,"text":"那對我們來講我們是沒有禁止自由行到大陸所以這個這個部分我們比他開放很多我們也希望他們對等開放自由行也盡量開放那團課的部分因為涉及到不特定人士赴陌生地方的旅遊所以基本上會有旅行社的業者來帶團那這個在帶團的過程中間相對來講是比自由行"},{"start":13924.343,"end":13924.843,"text":"這些議題都是不同的訊息"},{"start":13953.01,"end":13972.787,"text":"那包含今年初的這個外交事件M503事件導致政府綜合考慮要做這樣的決定那所以是不是可以這樣理解就是在於說我們在應對的時候其實不僅僅是中國團客這一件事情而已是在整個政治的研判當中包含這個M503甚至包含他們外交其他的施壓所以我們採取這個手段"},{"start":13973.975,"end":13974.636,"text":"對於自己做中國團客"},{"start":13990.237,"end":14012.677,"text":"他相關的這一個風險在哪裡?像以往就會有民間團體建議說那是不是他們應該要有某種程度的保險?這個保險是不是政府有可能來擬定跟規劃?因為畢竟跟中國做生意跟中國有任何的經濟上的往來他是有風險的事情我知道陸委會一直以來也都會警告國人這是一個風險但是風險有了之後有些人他願意take這個風險"},{"start":14013.618,"end":14035.252,"text":"那有了風險之後我們常常會想到補償嘛那補償如果一律都是譬如說我們已經告訴國人有這個風險結果他還願意去做那到底是要由政府來補償還是由市場機制來決定就是有這樣的一個保險機制的一個研擬規劃會不會是一個比較適當的做法想要就教於看市交通部或者陸委會都可以觀光署來跟報告報告委員"},{"start":14038.991,"end":14061.441,"text":"那如果旅行社在組團的話他就可以保那個旅行社責任險、旅責險那我們的自由行的旅客如果說就是到各個地方去旅行的話他當然也可以保這種的旅遊平安險啊或者是補貸險之類的業者本身的保險業者自己的保險"},{"start":14064.315,"end":14089.851,"text":"那這樣因為業者目前也有加入這個品保協會那品保協會就是來保障整體的那個消費者參團的消費者的權益那我們今天如果說層次要拉高一點就是對於他們在經營這件事業的風險我指的是這一件事情那我是在想說會不會未來我們有機會來討論這件那因為時間關係我們先在過去那接下來我想要問的就是我們現在要對未來做一些研判"},{"start":14090.131,"end":14091.531,"text":"如果他今天提出這樣的方案 那我們的對策會是什麼?"},{"start":14116.641,"end":14142.284,"text":"我想我們在去年的8月24號的時候就一定要是在要平等的一個對等的一個情況之下來去做一個兩岸觀光的一個交流因為我們現在害怕就是說因為對我們來講這本來應該就是像我們現在在這邊討論它是一個中央主管的事務那他如果把它降成它是一個地方的事務由地方來決定然後決定了以後造成了一個繼承事實"},{"start":14142.924,"end":14143.144,"text":"那最後呢 因為"},{"start":14159.608,"end":14185.325,"text":"我知道很多人在討論這次我們進團的法源的問題那我們找到這個旅遊觀光條例或者發展觀光條例它本身因為它是有法則的規定它看起來很像是一個法源但它畢竟當時在設計的時候絕對不是直接在針對這個狀況所以如果我們今天不斷的要反制對方不管是軍事還是經濟的壓迫我們今天討論的是經濟我們現在比較欠缺的反而是一個比較概括性的法源"},{"start":14185.945,"end":14211.579,"text":"也就是說我們反制措施如果沒有一個更高的法源基礎會變成我們每一次遇到這些狀況的時候都會有點捉襟見肘就是我們要一直還看說那到底是哪一個法源適合使用那這個一定也會造成國人的疑慮所以我們是希望說就是剛剛講的這個對未來的一個研判然後以及我覺得可能是陸委會對於以後我們針對這樣事情的反制措施的會不會有一個新的法源能夠建議"},{"start":14212.219,"end":14225.063,"text":"我們這邊立法者來進行也希望可能會有看法治相關的可能有相關的一些研析然後我們可以來討論這件事情那因為時間到了就先講到這邊謝謝好 謝謝委員好 非常謝謝沈博洋委員的質詢謝謝 謝謝次長 謝謝副署長繼續我們請賴時保委員質詢"},{"start":14240.337,"end":14250.124,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請交通部的林次長還有陸委會的邱主委好嗎好請邱主委還有林次長謝謝我先請教邱主委今天的這個進入團令是誰下的決定"},{"start":14264.179,"end":14284.985,"text":"這是我們在2月6日開會議嗎?不是,我們跟交通部跟相關的總統沒有主持嗎?沒有不是總統,因為這個基本上主持人是誰?主持人是誰?這個8月份的時候主持人是誰?問你8月就是跨部會的跨部主持人今天主持人就是高津主持人啦,什麼人?那天是"},{"start":14289.11,"end":14289.911,"text":"這麼大的事情你只派人喔?"},{"start":14302.84,"end":14307.582,"text":"因為大概我沒有所謂逃避責任委員會大概知道我們一般的國安會議我們是每個禮拜都會有召開這個是針對前面已經宣布的就是當時這個經濟部我們跟交通部針對到底要開放我們團客到大陸跟商務人士來台等等"},{"start":14331.211,"end":14336.015,"text":"所以那個會議你也沒有參加?那個會議我有參加開放的會議決定反禁止主陸團、副陸團你沒有參加?應該是最後一次我沒有參加因為之前我們會把各單位的"},{"start":14348.104,"end":14348.744,"text":"總統大選的時候賴清德怎麼樣子說要照顧"},{"start":14374.91,"end":14398.999,"text":"這個我們的觀光業、旅遊業開放大陸結果現在選上了我們要騙到了當選了我們這樣講可能好好去前面那個國民黨的委員他有提他的六項最後一項是開放中客到台灣來然後我們開放啊問題是他不放啊這個是另外一件事嗎剛剛那個國民黨的委員就列了六項那個副署長都有看到"},{"start":14404.042,"end":14410.109,"text":"尊重每一個立法院的意見尊重我的意見你尊重我的意見因為你問到這問題我只好跟你補充我告訴你你不能用他來他又不是聖經這個你這樣我不會回"},{"start":14420.1,"end":14420.84,"text":"主委主持人"},{"start":14439.985,"end":14455.215,"text":"這個做主席當然好阿哥讓你做主席啦主委啊主委你可以想這麼大的一個進團進入團令第一個你不在第二個你也不是水拍板的"},{"start":14456.155,"end":14456.656,"text":"你問任何一個問題我都知道不然你問"},{"start":14472.722,"end":14473.022,"text":"時間暫停了我跟趙偉報告"},{"start":14496.089,"end":14520.196,"text":"我們要求他事後提供吧那一天會議就是做成進團進入團令的時間會議名稱隨當主席出席名單給我們可以嗎好不好意思我在這邊回覆一下這個事報委員我事實上做最後我會裁定請他們再提供什麼樣的資料你剛剛提供的意見很好其實我已經準備好了謝謝這個"},{"start":14527.979,"end":14553.358,"text":"這邱主委以前是國代出身的喔我要對你講大聲一點罵大聲一點你是要說抱歉的喔但是就覺得你不是罵你來 主委我們都知道嘛齁美蘇兩大強權過去的時候把你整個這樣撲個這樣還是有大使來往啊有政治手段啊現在台灣對中國大陸來看的話只有"},{"start":14554.315,"end":14564.46,"text":"就是說一個我們強硬的一個就是放軟的結果我們現在這邊幾乎百分之百這邊是0了幾乎是0了兩會沒有溝通你看喔兩會海基海協請問什麼時候可以恢復交流我想這個就是對岸他能夠自己擺脫那個政治的模特跟框架那大概就可以了他已經存在8年了你要解決啊"},{"start":14584.548,"end":14608.831,"text":"請問請問請問請問請問請問請問請問請問請問"},{"start":14609.5,"end":14613.283,"text":"我講兩岸三十幾年來呢建立了很多的機制所以你的白話文就是你的意思一定有辦法讓對岸知道有秘密管道的意思沒有什麼秘密管道啦就既有的管道啦就現場的管道啦"},{"start":14632.435,"end":14633.196,"text":"有的窗口是傳達訊息有的窗口是處理個案過去陳水扁執政的時候那時候陸委會主委叫做蔡英文"},{"start":14657.292,"end":14659.874,"text":"最近的驚嚇事件有沒有通?"},{"start":14684.236,"end":14700.498,"text":"請下事件那不是他們的請下事件不是海旅會好阿他們有沒有反應說歡迎我們入團去或者有沒有失望說為什麼入團的功夫阿誰都不來有沒有講一下講一下從這回答"},{"start":14702.901,"end":14707.344,"text":"請你去回答好不好,現在有資訊,謝謝報告委員,所以因為在小館會主要是觀光這個業務所以我們一直釋放這個3億說歡迎陸客可以組團來到台灣他們也是希望我們可以到大陸去旅遊你們也表示呢"},{"start":14728.82,"end":14748.337,"text":"跟他說因為對岸對岸不友善所以我們停了對岸能不能接受對岸的反應是什麼這個陸海旅會的反應是什麼一旦失望我們是釋放善意啦他怎麼講他怎麼講他目前應該是就是沒什麼應該啊他應該是還沒回應"},{"start":14750.441,"end":14756.627,"text":"兩岸關係現在是越來越好還是越來越不好?還是差不多?兩會這麼重要的講稿裡面,結果兩會啊,現在才開的兩會啊,人大要跟政協啊"},{"start":14771.192,"end":14800.37,"text":"原來都是講一個和平統一文他講他們的結果現在和平的拿掉了我一直解讀就是說就是因為對今下的事情對這些事情把你不滿了給你拿掉了我再跟委員再報告一次大概我們會把過去大概這個歷次的這個這個不同政黨的這個那他們在兩會的報告裡面我們做一個比較綜合性的研析啦那我簡單講就是說主席站出來了站上來了所以你不要講太多話"},{"start":14801.257,"end":14802.418,"text":"我要補充的最後一點啦齁"},{"start":14830.713,"end":14836.136,"text":"兩個大人吵架不能夠把小孩子拿去撞你們現在就這樣子啊兩會不好然後就把我們的旅遊業誰去攏他來攏這樣你要跟對岸大概強調一點他不但不對等而且不公平為什麼開放了38個國家全世界各個國家啦跟其他國家吵架呢而且你禁止赴陸團對不起你是違憲找不到法律的依據你那個那什麼國家利益這個"},{"start":14860.449,"end":14879.213,"text":"這個就是一個到底的戒嚴條款底下,那個就是只有新政權了。非常謝謝賴世寶委員您的執行。好,謝謝跟委員說明一下,也謝謝主委、次長還有我等會會做一個結論,然後第二個明天會安排陸委會就會來做他們的報告。您剛剛對。"},{"start":14881.594,"end":14898.446,"text":"禮拜四嗎?對,所以明天再來我們還會希望提待看到精彩的質詢跟對話,好嗎?謝謝好,現在請謝一鳳、謝一鳳、謝一鳳委員不在,我們按照剛剛宣讀的休息3分鐘然後再繼續開會,謝謝"},{"start":15099.961,"end":15100.521,"text":"邀請邱主委"},{"start":15124.147,"end":15140.532,"text":"主委好首先要謝謝主席今天召開針對赴陸旅遊團停招這個事情我覺得連著禮拜一的時候跟那個驚嚇撞船事件當中的一個事情"},{"start":15141.552,"end":15164.052,"text":"上禮拜 這個禮拜一的時候我發現大家都把焦點放在那個海洋委員會反而對陸委會這邊比較少關注到可是我覺得這兩個問題都跟陸委會有非常非常大的影響說實話而且有關聯性就是說陸委會其實能夠影響到這兩件事情我覺得非常的關鍵那我們先看一下整個"},{"start":15165.954,"end":15181.139,"text":"人類歷史上面其實很多的戰爭很多的意外都是出現於意外並不是真的說我準備要打這場仗才去打這場仗所以我們其實對於整個驚嚇事件我們也擔心會危及到兩岸的一個關係的一個發展"},{"start":15182.999,"end":15206.932,"text":"那麼今天針對旅遊團這個部分的時候那我首先先簡單講一下那之前那個邱主委曾經說過就是必須要對岸也開放來台那我們這邊才對等的方式去做這樣子的一個方式否則就按照國安的問題就先把它停下來我這樣理解有沒有錯後面的部分沒有8月宣布的時候就是依對等原則"},{"start":15207.492,"end":15224.771,"text":"對比原則嘛那交通部後來又把他停下來就是覺得說好像對方對岸還沒有開放所以就沒有開放嘛對不對我們這邊也要把他停下來這個是其中一個交通部後面的一個原因前提沒有啦因為我們希望他開放理解理解理解"},{"start":15225.471,"end":15243.119,"text":"所以我覺得這邊這個邏輯因為我覺得我們能夠掌握就是掌握在我們手上的資源跟手上的球所以我在想說哇那如果說大陸方面如果說都沒有善意回應的時候我們是不是以後就永遠其實都不要有大陸團到大陸去你的邏輯就變成這樣子對不對"},{"start":15244.72,"end":15271.912,"text":"委員可能沒有注意到我中間其實有在某次的受訪我有提到如果大陸不要的話我們對大陸的政策我們有自己的節奏跟我們的期程所以節奏的時候就有可能就是都不開放啦還是說什麼時候會開放如果大陸沒有開放你覺得什麼時候會開放因為今天我想委員都很清楚兩岸的情勢的變化不只是在政治、軍事、經濟還有其他的這個"},{"start":15273.072,"end":15275.315,"text":"所以現在你講很多可是那個部分也不是我們能夠掌握的"},{"start":15290.154,"end":15309.313,"text":"現在我們掌握的狀態,我就直接講一下,旅遊業到我們辦公室來陳情了,他們就講說如果說陸委會這邊還是卡著,交通部這邊還是卡著,不能讓出團去5月31號之後,6月1號之後沒有辦法繼續出團的時候,他們準備5月20號要上街頭啦。"},{"start":15310.054,"end":15312.698,"text":"這已經影響到他們生存的問題了我們都覺得我們國家的尊嚴很重要兩岸對等也很重要可是我要講一件事情我們看到"},{"start":15327.518,"end":15345.851,"text":"大陸來台的人數統計跟台灣去大陸的人數統計高點大概都在417萬跟418萬左右差不多兩岸進去的高點大概都差不多可是時間點不太一樣大陸來台灣的高點大概是在2015年左右"},{"start":15346.611,"end":15360.854,"text":"台灣去大陸的高點大概在2018年左右大概是這樣子我們看到統計數字類似這樣那我知道有不同的統計數字它有不同的狀態可是我要講的狀態是當417萬的大陸人到台灣來的時候對台灣具體產生了一些影響"},{"start":15368.697,"end":15383.651,"text":"418萬台灣人到大陸去的時候對大陸產生的影響非常的小那我就這邊我就給另外再跟那個主委這邊再看一個數字就是我們直接來看一下就是飯店業者他們的一個數字出來"},{"start":15385.012,"end":15408.782,"text":"飯店業者數字出來的時候我們看到的一個情況就是觀光旅館的租用率跟國際觀光旅館的租用率的狀態還有整個一般旅館的租用率我們這三個部分算起來我們就只看觀光旅館的租用率就是國際加一般平均起來的時候在103年的時候高點大概是71.8%大概有7成多的一個平均的一個住房率"},{"start":15409.942,"end":15437.649,"text":"當我們在變得比較少的時候呢就大陸對台灣我們初略來看的時候對整個住房率這個指標來看的時候大概影響10%大概影響10%的一個狀態那我這邊要講的一個情況就是為什麼旅遊業者他們很跳腳的原因就是這樣子就覺得說整個執政黨現在對於整個相關的政策感覺是兒戲去年8月的時候可以開放說要開放3月1號要開放就是赴大陸"},{"start":15439.23,"end":15454.51,"text":"臺灣的遊客赴陸團組團去大陸旅遊選完了之後呢然後又改變了那現在只能開放到5月31號所以他們很跳腳他們很跳腳所以他們準備要上街頭那我覺得以"},{"start":15456.308,"end":15483.565,"text":"旅遊業者來講的時候他們如果會要上街頭肯定是他們生存受到影響了嘛那他們也直接在跟我講他們也在跟我講的時候講得更是義憤填膺啦就很多那個髒話都飆出來了髒話都飆出來那他們覺得說現在執行黨憑什麼東西能夠讓大家不能夠出團去大陸覺得交通部這樣子的一個依法在哪邊交通部今天我就重點不在因為我覺得我為什麼一開始講到"},{"start":15485.746,"end":15504.631,"text":"禮拜一的質詢跟今天的質詢上我覺得陸委會其實要扮演在兩岸關係處理當中更關鍵的一個角色更關鍵的一個角色就是我們禁團令到底適不適合和適不適法那其實交通部之前講到是講到是對那個觀光條例的部分"},{"start":15505.471,"end":15521.68,"text":"關於條例部分,我們認為按照憲法第10條保障的人民有居住遷徙的自由當中,包括大法官釋字第443號、454號、558號當中,都很清楚提到了人民有任意移居或旅行各地的權利。"},{"start":15523.274,"end":15539.551,"text":"如果要對人民的自由權利加以限制必須要符合憲法第23條所定的必要程度並且以法律定之或者經立法機關明確授權由行政機關以命令定之"},{"start":15540.091,"end":15556.417,"text":"所以對於這個部分來說的時候我們認為現在交通部這邊就直接下令禁止台灣人民組團到大陸去旅遊我們認為其實是違反了憲法對人民居住千里自由的保障"},{"start":15558.038,"end":15576.868,"text":"我認為陸委會主委這個角色很重要就是我剛剛一開始提到說兩岸的一個關係要走向一個和平的一個面對還是可能會有意外發生我覺得陸委會也許都不是主要的"},{"start":15577.688,"end":15598.977,"text":"第一線的一個單位像禮拜一主要大家都針對海洋委員會那今天可能大家都針對交通部或等等可是我覺得這跟兩岸有關的陸委會絕對難持其責任就是你的責任的部分我覺得一定要擔起來所以今天我們講的某個部分還比較軟性一點"},{"start":15599.557,"end":15626.806,"text":"因為是旅遊相關的一個問題所以本席要認為你剛剛提到說當兩岸關係有所調整的時候那麼台灣要組團去大陸這邊也是可以開放的你剛剛意思是這樣子嗎?對不對?對那大概在怎麼樣的情況之下你覺得才可以開放?就是8月份的新聞已經發布了那前提就已經講了雙方應該要對等互惠吧"},{"start":15627.611,"end":15642.017,"text":"所以我剛一開始就提到所謂的對等這概念來說的時候理解 可是我們現在等於是打我們自己的旅遊業者打我們自己的小孩給對方看以為說我們綁架我們的旅遊業者對方就能夠妥協這個情況很奇怪這個情況很奇怪啊理解 可是問題是在選後的時候又做了一個轉折啊"},{"start":15654.242,"end":15654.803,"text":"感謝主委的回應"},{"start":15677.385,"end":15694.898,"text":"林儲英﹑林儲英﹑林儲英委員不在場羅美玲﹑羅美玲﹑羅美玲委員不在場王紅薇﹑王紅薇﹑王紅薇委員不在場莊瑞雄﹑莊瑞雄﹑莊瑞雄委員不在場呂逸琳﹑呂逸琳﹑呂逸琳委員不在場楊瓊英﹑楊瓊英﹑楊瓊英委員不在場"},{"start":15695.598,"end":15703.941,"text":"中嘉賓﹚委員不在場張家俊﹚委員不在場何新存﹚委員不在場林俊憲﹚委員不在場蘇清泉﹚委員不在場游皓﹚委員不在場陳雪生﹚委員不在場許智傑﹚委員不在場"},{"start":15721.527,"end":15734.41,"text":"馬文君馬文君馬文君委員不在場傅坤祺傅坤祺傅坤祺委員不在場蔡易瑜蔡易瑜蔡易瑜委員不在場繼續我們請羅志強委員來做質詢主席有請交通部觀光署好有請副署長謝謝"},{"start":15757.447,"end":15773.32,"text":"副署長好我們今天雖然安排的是赴陸旅遊團停招的專案報告但本席想要先了解的是對於來台旅遊的旅客人數觀光署今年是有什麼樣的規劃才能夠回到過去的榮景"},{"start":15775.644,"end":15796.137,"text":"報告委員,我們在112年來台的旅客是648萬我們今年希望能夠恢復到千萬人次所以針對像端北亞,尤其是日韓的市場以及西南向的國家市場這邊我們會加足力道來做一個宣傳"},{"start":15798.038,"end":15805.592,"text":"我目前就是您說的是648萬大概是疫情前的一半而已應該是超過一半"},{"start":15806.643,"end":15829.74,"text":"也差不多啦反正就還是差蠻多的啦那從2008年開始我們從開放入客來台旅遊所以入客成為旅遊業重要的收入來源那在入客為基本保障的情況之下那全世界來台灣旅遊的人次是年年逐步升高在什麼時候達到高峰"},{"start":15832.355,"end":15858.78,"text":"報告委員我們的高峰應該是在2019年對2019年但後來就碰上疫情但是如果加上出入境總和2800多萬人次兩岸航線的人次就有800萬人次那佔航空業4成營收也就佔旅行業1⅓到1⅓的營收所以比重其實是非常高的對不對"},{"start":15861.201,"end":15885.648,"text":"是那台灣有旅行社4000家有九成有發團到大陸那陸客也是過去也是台灣最大的客源所以當然是很重要的市場那現在對於旅行社來講我們的陸客團其實也是旅行社很大的很重要的收入嘛對不對報告委員根據我們的調查台灣的旅行社是大概4038家"},{"start":15887.568,"end":15908.135,"text":"一記統計資料有經營陸客團大概是1044家如果說比重在5層以上的話大概是404家所以影響也是相當有對不對如果說是以比重50%以上的旅行社的話大概是一層左右"},{"start":15908.755,"end":15932.35,"text":"所以我要特別講就是說陸客其實在過去對我們台灣我們的國內旅遊市場2019年之前它其實是非常重要的一個我們講的收入來源那實際上對於旅行社它當然不只是整個旅行業來講不只是國內它也包括大陸的部分也是旅行社重要的收入可是現在你會發現說"},{"start":15933.931,"end":15950.296,"text":"你現在我們的整個來台旅遊的人數不斷的減少那第一個對旅行業者衝擊當然就會出現嘛對不對那我想請問齁那台灣不能帶團過去也不能帶團過來造成的業者的巨大的經濟損失"},{"start":15952.51,"end":15979.876,"text":"請問我們有沒有相應的客人可以補得上?該委員就說明事實上這個疫後之後這個整個市場是有一些的變化那像我們國人這個到這個其他旅行目的地去旅遊的話那分別是今天我們調查是日本然後再來就是韓國、越南、泰國等等所以他的那個旅遊的市場其實有一些的那個變化"},{"start":15980.996,"end":15982.557,"text":"在去年就已經回復到疫情前的旅遊業的榮景了"},{"start":16005.518,"end":16008.079,"text":"目前台灣準備好了嗎?目前到底我們的目標是什麼?"},{"start":16028.513,"end":16044.387,"text":"我們的目標到底來客的目標是多少?跟委員做個報告,我們目標大概是在千萬,能夠達到一千萬以上的。達得到嗎?我們有信心。有信心,那也剩下這個九個月時間左右,對不對?"},{"start":16045.928,"end":16069.379,"text":"那我想看看上個禮拜我們交通部長王國才部長的說法他說期待今年入客能來同時也要將日本韓國東南亞旅客作為今年的重點還有印度市場也是要努力的目標那我想請問你我目前看到的數據不只是入客沒辦法連日本客成效也沒有很亮眼"},{"start":16070.578,"end":16088.805,"text":"那我想請問那你現在兩岸之間上綱的政治衝突這麼大結果你發現我們當東牆垮了可是我們也找不到西牆來補啊但是你又那麼信心滿滿說你能夠達到千萬目標因為事實上之前你的目標是一千兩百萬啊不是嗎 對不對那現在保守一點變一千萬當場少了兩百萬啊"},{"start":16094.822,"end":16113.548,"text":"那我想請問你會不會到年底你的目標又更保守了因為現在現實的狀況你就看到事實上我們目前來看的話臺灣的旅行業者就面臨兩邊的為難嘛那你今天說不准入團到大陸去其實某種程度我認為是也是對旅行業者的一個懲罰不是嗎"},{"start":16115.842,"end":16126.722,"text":"因為那個是奧邦我們當然是很希望說世界上各個國家能夠來到台灣因為他這樣對台灣的消費他的一個才有貢獻"},{"start":16127.97,"end":16152.441,"text":"所以像我們說國外的旅遊啊旅客如果覺得台灣的旅遊品質沒有達到預期那或者同樣的價格沒有有更好的選擇那就會造成說今天不把台灣列為第一選擇嘛這種情形是存在的嘛對不對這個我們一直在努力可是我看到你們這個我們政府的說法是直接推給說國內的旅館的價格太高啊是這樣推的嗎"},{"start":16155.166,"end":16167.302,"text":"其實這個旅館的價格是市場的機制那在平日的部分的話其實蠻多的旅館的價格事實上我也看到我們有一些關於旅遊方面的一些評論人他講到說"},{"start":16170.366,"end":16189.559,"text":"這個顯示出你像其他的國家在疫情後他的不然國內國外的旅遊尤其國內旅遊蓬勃發展跟他疫情期間趁著所謂的疫情期間萊克少做了很多的一些觀光方面的一些改造跟規劃是有關的"},{"start":16190.339,"end":16198.925,"text":"所以它不會是一個單一所有旅館的昂貴不昂貴的因素而是今天你能不能產生更好的性價比來去吸引觀光的來客"},{"start":16200.134,"end":16225.982,"text":"所以我今天要問就是說那事實上以目前來看就是說我如果我不能夠調整我們國內旅遊觀光的品質跟提高這個性價比你先不要講說吸引來客我們台灣自己的國人在旅遊的選項上如果我們的性價比不夠的話他會選擇留在國內還是到國外去是 剛剛委員做了一個報告那委員剛剛所提的我非常贊同"},{"start":16226.542,"end":16229.424,"text":"網路上最有流傳的梗圖公司預算減少所以員工旅遊從墾丁改成日本你不覺得這樣的梗圖非常的對我們的政府是個很大的羞辱嗎"},{"start":16250.096,"end":16250.256,"text":"主席"},{"start":16257.424,"end":16257.444,"text":"張祺凱委員質詢"},{"start":16289.285,"end":16292.188,"text":"請邱主委你今天有套招齁我看三份報告沒說的結論都是要中國大陸先有善意因為在八月份的時候我們其實就已經記者會的說法就是對等對等你們希望中國大陸那邊有什麼善意"},{"start":16315.497,"end":16341.856,"text":"基本上就剛剛不是提到了嗎就是說大家同時開放團客同時開放對另外一個點你提到是希望對等對不對對你的意思就是中國大陸做什麼你這邊就做什麼他們開放團客過來我們就開放一下基本上就團客的部分是這樣子的我們應該對等的還有很多啦對等的比如說我們我先問你一些對等的事情你知道最近我覺得你是比較鴿派的啦你制高點比較高的希望兩岸和平的"},{"start":16342.952,"end":16351.076,"text":"中國大陸最近有做了幾個比較友善的動作,包括宗教團、文化團、經濟團、體育團,你知道最近有很多團先遷要來台灣嗎?你知道嗎?"},{"start":16351.076,"end":16351.336,"text":"你知道嗎?"},{"start":16351.336,"end":16351.657,"text":"我知道啊。你知道?"},{"start":16351.657,"end":16351.977,"text":"什麼團都沒有過?"},{"start":16351.977,"end":16352.897,"text":"他們自己的考量啊?"},{"start":16364.167,"end":16386.375,"text":"什麼?他申請什麼要自己考量?他要來啊!對啊!那我們當然有啊!我們就有機制可以讓他申請啊!等一下等一下等一下!邱主委等一下等一下等一下!接著接著!第一個你知道他們有很多宗教團、文化團、經濟團他們有申請要來對不對?對!其實這是第一個要件嘛對不對?對!就是那個你說他們沒有來是他們自己踩煞車還是我們這邊"},{"start":16387.728,"end":16406.743,"text":"沒有損就我了解幾個部分我先了解幾個部分譬如說在去年選舉的時候我沒有邀請他們涉台學者要來結果最後沒有來是因為他們北京沒有同意那第二個就是說如果你剛剛講宗教或什麼等等那原則上是由業務目的事業主管機關先審那審的時候結果最後他們說他們撤回"},{"start":16409.535,"end":16411.276,"text":"最近這半年有多少他們這種宗教團或者文化團他們要來"},{"start":16440.185,"end":16464.794,"text":"第一個,有多少團要求要來?申請要來?第二,有幾個團最後是通過的?第三個更重要的,被駁回的有多少?可以嗎?你來講很簡單,明天再告訴我不是,這個恐慌沒有辦法,因為這個是,我剛剛提到了,所有各種的名目的團,它就先由業務、目的事業主管機關所以有可能是教育部的,也有可能是內政部的,也有可能..."},{"start":16466.195,"end":16473.395,"text":"阿所以你說兩岸和平阿對阿結果他們申請要來的大陸的業務單位全部都幾乎都沒有沒有沒有我到底什麼原因我們不曉得"},{"start":16475.015,"end":16490.421,"text":"也有來的你知道很多都沒有過對不對我不曉得因為我們通常陸委會會在什麼我剛剛跟委員報告一下基本上是目的事業主管先審認為可以的時候才會送到1億的審查單位我們都要宣布台灣兩岸這樣惡意螺旋一直在往上走的時候我覺得是我們要怎麼樣這樣開出一扇"},{"start":16499.184,"end":16499.544,"text":"回去我不曉得齁"},{"start":16529.637,"end":16540.123,"text":"一個禮拜,一個禮拜好了因為我剛剛講過了一個禮拜裡面要包括幾個團放行的有幾個最後呈行了更重要的沒有來的"},{"start":16541.223,"end":16542.064,"text":"那你這一次為什麼只有進那個旅行業者?"},{"start":16568.53,"end":16569.27,"text":"在8月份8月份的時候議後的檢討"},{"start":16589.122,"end":16616.638,"text":"我之前已經講過好幾次了我先講完權責單位到底是誰嘛大家要討論你總是知道權責單位到底是誰嘛我之前在立法院總質詢的時候也表示過了入客要來台灣是我們陸委會的權責因為在兩岸條例第15條我們的國人要去大陸原則上是交通部的權責"},{"start":16617.614,"end":16627.784,"text":"你有沒有蛋跑?交通部敢做這個決定啊?陸委會跟邱泰山沒有點頭你隨便去馬路上抓十個人有沒有一個人會贊成說邱泰山陸委會沒有贊成沒有點頭交通部會同意"},{"start":16633.63,"end":16656.855,"text":"基本上我在跟各位說第二個報告第二個報告就是說所有的所以8月份的這個討論呢我們立委會只要負責商務人士要來台的規劃至於團課要出去基本上是由交通部先做他們的規劃好啦我這樣跟你講你沒有點頭他們不會這樣做的我問這個簡單那現在那個業者如果受到"},{"start":16658.035,"end":16664.637,"text":"旅行業應該很多下單都很少對不對?例如說機票已經買了啦、旅館已經訂啦可不可以跟國家求償?"},{"start":16665.509,"end":16668.131,"text":"基本上是我們讓他3月到5月的照樣出團那6月以後就是變到前面提早因為旅遊本身是一個有啊 有人就定期票到定飯店就是定到月7月8月"},{"start":16688.715,"end":16705.405,"text":"阿機票的訂定本身他是一個商業上的,譬如說他訂的到底是有沒有付訂金,還是只是一個appointment?對啦,要是真的有訂金阿,我訂好了,他可以來求償嗎?你要付嗎?應該沒有這個機制吧,我們請他盡量來調整突然突襲一下,我用做生意就是正常就是長期阿,理行社"},{"start":16710.007,"end":16711.168,"text":"你對里營生業也很了解對不對?"},{"start":16711.168,"end":16722.413,"text":"旅遊業者 向委員報告我們當時是叫他們準備嘛準備然後慢慢整理但是並沒有說要完全開放到2月7號以前是請他們準備"},{"start":16725.034,"end":16743.304,"text":"報告委員,事實上我們為了降低這樣的一個衝擊所以3月到5月是可以出團的那6月以後要出團的一個部分的話要有三個措施第一個是說他可以提早提早到3月到5月這邊這是沒有問題的"},{"start":16745.305,"end":16745.625,"text":"邱主委"},{"start":16770.845,"end":16783.152,"text":"你最近煩惱兩岸那個二一螺旋一直往上走嘛兩會長開會他們把那個和平統一拿掉了嘛對不對啊最近金門的事你看他們的那個海警船現在出來都3000噸的對不對我們的小蝦米對大經理要怎樣你覺得"},{"start":16788.44,"end":16813.777,"text":"我講海巡署他們都有基本的SOP就像對岸不管是軍事的或者是海巡的或者是其他的我們大家都有一個基本的SOP你轉角你會反而現在兩岸有擦槍走火嗎我們是希望想要使用非文明方法的戰爭你希望和平啦我是說你會反而不會啦會反而有做什麼我們還是密切關注啦密切關注"},{"start":16815.538,"end":16833.142,"text":"所以沒有準備到什麼進駐什麼準戰爭的那個擦槍走火的那個準備因為還是要有一段期間的觀察因為這還涉及到整個周邊區域的問題啦所以站在陸委會的立場還是希望兩岸是和平的當然當然當然我剛開了一、三團而且增加交流增加交流增加交流這一塊好不好要主流一百萬好謝謝"},{"start":16835.888,"end":16863.715,"text":"好 非常謝謝齊凱委員的質詢非常謝謝您也謝謝我們的主委、次長回應還有副署長但是呢我剛剛聽到林次長您的態度回應的態度我就可以知道我們的旅行業者跟我們的觀光署之間的會議他們是多麼的受到困難重重也會明瞭為什麼那麼多的旅行業者能夠跟我們立法委員來投訴所以這樣的態度基本上"},{"start":16864.375,"end":16865.476,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請陸委會邱主委跟交通部您嘗試"},{"start":16894.439,"end":16897.202,"text":"邱主委和林次長現階段陸方沒有同意陸客團來台前,假設我方單方面開放附陸,將造成龐大的觀光逆差。"},{"start":16914.935,"end":16940.923,"text":"是不是什麼時候陸委會的業務跟我們觀光逆差順差都有相關基本上這是交通部寫出來的評估報告那我們陸委會是要中整各部會對於他們這個這個議題的情勢陸委會最主要的業務、功能、方向、目標、定位是什麼我想根據陸委會的組織法我們是對於各部會涉及兩岸的政策的協調"},{"start":16944.224,"end":16954.952,"text":"應對方案的擬定,透過國安的討論之後來做這樣的一個定調如果涉及到法令的部分,因為陸委會大概有將近19個部會是我們的委員"},{"start":16959.375,"end":16979.231,"text":"部長是我們的委員所以如果各部會涉及到兩岸的法令他原則上要在我們的委員會討論完了之後才送到行政院那如果需要送到立法院的再送到立法院來所以我們是在做政策統合的協調那當然在政策統合協調的過程中各單位就必須要把他們的評估報告給我們陸委會"},{"start":16980.852,"end":17008.22,"text":"我們就會召集各單位來做這樣的一個討論如果涉及國安的部分就會邀請國安比如像國安局的也好移民署也好或者是相關的海巡署等等等等大概就是這樣的運作機制所以說現在是3月到5月底開放這個組團到大陸也是陸委會這邊同意這個是當做了政策暫停的時候後續如果有一些問題的要學處理的話那就有目的事業主管機關"},{"start":17008.82,"end":17018.508,"text":"因為這個是事務性的事現在又變目的事業主任機關我剛剛不是講那個層次嗎因為有一個目的事業主任他是負責執行所以本席其實最重要的是說"},{"start":17020.413,"end":17041.153,"text":"今天你這邊回應講是說有造成龐大的觀光逆差我們就想說什麼時候陸委會也會插手考慮到觀光順差與逆差我剛剛不是講嗎?所有各部會的政策評估最重點是說到目前為止我們自己的觀光旅遊產業本身為什麼還是一定要過來就是因為我們也要為我們觀光旅遊產業來發聲"},{"start":17043.095,"end":17061.768,"text":"疫情開始的時候 飯店、旅遊、住宿、觀光、運輸等相關行業都非常辛苦那好不容易等到疫情結束春暖花開啊 也覺得是說真的兩岸如果可以恢復平穩的一個交流的話 那當然就可以有更平和的一個交流嘛"},{"start":17063.565,"end":17066.208,"text":"現在講的是說政治宣誓來大於這整個政策的發展"},{"start":17081.164,"end":17110.18,"text":"所以說本席才會講是說當突然間說要片面的又要再取消又要再禁止我們的一個旅行社來去組團而我們用的其實很多時候你剛剛也講了就是說這是有什麼國安考慮等等的部分但是我們用的法令我們用的法令是旅行相關的一個法令所以說它其實是沒有直接的關聯的你等於是你們是想要找一個片面的一個法令來去限制我們的一個旅行業者不是嗎"},{"start":17119.746,"end":17139.039,"text":"本席在總質詢的時候就已經跟你講過每一次你都想要本席在跟你回顧的是本席現在跟你講的是未來但你一直都在講的是歷史你一直都在講的是去年的8月但本席現在跟你講的是今年的6月今年6月的時候是要要禁止旅行社在組團去中國大陸對不對沒有"},{"start":17141.365,"end":17154.293,"text":"那現在旅行社6月可以組團去整個大陸嗎?剛剛那個交通部不是講了嗎?那你回答一下,現在旅行社6月可以組團去整個大陸嗎?對方如果明天宣布說他們來,那我們雙方就可以"},{"start":17156.212,"end":17181.741,"text":"那你現在 現在旅遊社可不可以去中國大陸去組團去中國大陸5月底之前都可以啊是啊 所以說你不就是5月底以前你又做一個變更了嗎3月到5月底是因為暫停暫停等待對方的善意回應我現在看得出來了主委你現在就在強詞奪理並且就是不願意直接面對問題對我直接面對問題啊說實在話你沒有直接面對問題我覺得今天張偉排這個專案報告非常的好喔"},{"start":17184.742,"end":17211.42,"text":"就是可以讓國人看到是說不管是我們的大陸委員會或者是我們相關部會的首長都沒有直接面對問題講到什麼事情的時候就會無限的上綱不管是你要說所謂的抗中保台或是你要講好像說什麼把我們的旅行業者送出去外面但最重要的是如果說沒有的話現在很多國人前往到中國大陸還是會變成是說在地下的旅行團不是嗎"},{"start":17212.04,"end":17240.936,"text":"到最後沒有保障的沒有辦法有這種旅行契約的其實受苦受傷受害的還是我們的國人不是嗎我講第一個部分我們到現在為止都沒有禁止國人到大陸去自由行是沒有錯因為這是國人的行動自由國人前往就沒有觀光利差的問題沒有觀光利差的問題但是旅行業去兼具消耗權利和兼具你這樣子完全邏輯不通嘛"},{"start":17241.616,"end":17253.806,"text":"那我剛剛不是在跟你講嗎旅行業它兼具有對消費者的保護還兼具有我們的產業政策啊來次長那所以這個會由交通部來主委我覺得這樣再跟你殉道下去會浪費時間因為你持續在鬧而且沒有辦法針對問題解決問題好也請您次長謝謝次長我想請教在這段時間裡面有多少旅行業者跟你來做陳情"},{"start":17265.978,"end":17285.99,"text":"有沒有接收到,我有觀光,不管是我們次長這邊有跟我們署跟交通部都有陳情開過了幾次會我們2月19號有把業者找來,再做一次台灣的旅行業者,那我們有算過說這個總共的這個旅行業者從業人員有多少人嗎"},{"start":17287.494,"end":17313.751,"text":"我們影響了多少家庭?我們有4000多家旅行業但是超過50%的旅客旅遊有404家那整個現在他們最主要的問題是什麼?是不是認為現在3月到5月是可以組團的但是6月突然又禁止了現在沒有辦法收團那如果說有收團超過6月的狀況那是不是要做取消或調整?那還有6月之後是不是遙遙無期?"},{"start":17315.732,"end":17343.991,"text":"因為現在剛剛我們的這個主委非常的完全不願意回答問題或是說完全的這樣子的一個glue的狀況就講我們現在明明是我們用所謂的觀光條例等等的來限制旅行業者而且那條觀光條例多嚴重啊那條觀光條例講的是什麼國家安全講的是有損害民風對不對那條的立法精神是什麼"},{"start":17345.372,"end":17371.809,"text":"那條立法精神是不是如果說本席沒有記錯的話那條立法精神最主要是我們不希望臺灣我們中華民國的這種旅行團出去外面有從事任何不法的狀況您提的是53條53條是希望發展觀光的過程不能顛入國家的名義不能危害國家利益不可以詐騙消費者三大項目就是我講說那條立法精神當初是什麼"},{"start":17372.99,"end":17373.41,"text":"時空背景"},{"start":17392.711,"end":17400.002,"text":"不管說不好的團、低價的團或是說詐騙的團出去外面然後好像把旅客當成是這種肥羊仔"},{"start":17403.537,"end":17425.706,"text":"對不對 不管是進來的旅客或是我們出去的旅客我們都不希望旅行業用這種低價、消價競爭然後把人家出去、帶出去之後然後結果有這種 譬如說明明是低價團然後就到最後到外面然後又一定要買東西一定要什麼不然的話不放他走甚至還有可能有更危害善良風俗的這種團"},{"start":17426.866,"end":17429.908,"text":"市長,損害國家利益還沒有發生之前,你講的狀況不存在,但是已經實質的是不是造成很多的旅行業者的家庭經濟來損傷了?"},{"start":17455.391,"end":17484.169,"text":"我現在再請教什麼時候還會再跟旅行業者來開會一直都有什麼時候還會再現在討論你的政策要改變要調整到5月底以前還會不會再跟旅行社業者溝通應該這樣講我們政策上都已經很明確這一段期間如果有善業的回應開放大陸的自由行跟團客過來甚至還有王國才部長講說業者可以自己去跟中國大陸講"},{"start":17485.595,"end":17488.196,"text":"政策論述是3月1號到5月31號之間繼續開放旅客團去大陸"},{"start":17506.8,"end":17513.282,"text":"市長你不要再像鸚鵡一樣一直在呼應這件事情你們剛剛一直都不一樣這樣子因為今天的質詢時間都已經到了那是不是請孟凱委員也可以停止您發言不要再在這邊鬼打牆或是持血就如同昭偉剛剛講的真的是學鸚鵡講話"},{"start":17532.668,"end":17552.24,"text":"非常謝謝鳳凱委員質詢,也謝謝我們的主委,謝謝次長,謝謝副署長,謝謝登記發言的委員除了不在場之外,其餘都已經發言完畢了,也詢答結束委員王洪威所提的書面質詢我們列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":17553.42,"end":17566.345,"text":"書面質詢還有未及答覆的部分請相關單位在一週內以書面答覆並複製本會另外我要特別提醒有關本次會議的專題報告的名稱是復陸旅遊團停招決策過程跟後續影響評估的專題報告"},{"start":17575.749,"end":17597.83,"text":"因為陸委會還有交通部對決策的過程還有他們的會議記錄以及後續影響的評估以及對相關觀光等業者還有國人的損失怎麼樣解決處理 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局長"},{"start":1882.335,"end":1903.182,"text":"觀光署周永輝署長、航港局葉協榮局長、民用航空局何淑品局長、中央氣象署陳佳品署長、台鐵公司杜威董事長、港務公司李協義董事長、"},{"start":1917.366,"end":1944.755,"text":"中華郵政吳洪某董事長桃園機場公司楊維福董事長高鐵公司江耀宗董事長中華航空謝士謙董事長陽明海運鄭振茂董事長中華電信郭水義董事長警政署航空警察局邱文亮局長"},{"start":1947.101,"end":1976.104,"text":"台北市政府捷運工程局陳景慈副局長新北市捷運工程局鄭志敏副局長桃園市政府捷運局廖振遠副局長台中市公共運輸及捷運工程處張應當處長台南市交通局熊萬寅副局長台南市捷運工程處李蔣蕙處長高雄市政府捷運工程局吳家昌副局長"},{"start":1979.465,"end":1998.93,"text":"本次會議進行交通部業務報告現在請王部長報告主席、各位委員、各位女士先生以下就交通部的業務進行報告"},{"start":2001.021,"end":2012.896,"text":"在我這次報告是主要報告因為今年是剛開始我來報告1、2年的重要成果以及今年要做的一些事情首先報告1、2年重要的成果"},{"start":2014.031,"end":2031.343,"text":"在1月2年裡面我們有完成很多相關的一個計畫第一個是國道2號甲線這個在去年1月9號通車國道4號台中環線這是在1月16然後另外國道10號的燕巢交流道這是在去年4月28完成"},{"start":2034.585,"end":2060.723,"text":"另外就是國道3號跟66線的這個北路工程在6月30那我們現在很重要一點就是說過去快速道路跟國道沒有銜接的系統交流道那我們這幾年都是在持續的來加強另外有一些服務因為人口發展這個服務不到的地方比如說國道1號的矽子交流道增設南路閘道這個也在去年10月30號完成"},{"start":2062.264,"end":2086.762,"text":"那另外在省道部分在台南很重要的急雪溪橋的改建在去年7月6號那另外台65線這個福州地區的北上南下的閘道在去年8月29號完成那另外就是台74的大甲霧峰偵測閘道這個就是一般的講的這個草湖交流道這也在去年的10月底完成"},{"start":2087.711,"end":2101.377,"text":"那另外就是花東的這個委員關心的花東縱谷的景觀大道我們先完成第一段就是臺東瑞豐道永安段在去年11月17日完成那接下來報告這個鐵道建設的部分"},{"start":2103.239,"end":2124.27,"text":"華東的這個雙軌工程在這個南平到萬隆的雙軌化那這個部分在去年的6月27已經完成了那另外機場捷運營業以後他現在要延伸到中壢那其中的A22站這個老街西站那在去年7月31號完成那另外英哥他的"},{"start":2125.891,"end":2128.457,"text":"我們在去年9月27日完成這個電蝴蝶的啟用"},{"start":2134.192,"end":2153.79,"text":"那另外在五分車,台糖嘉義蒜頭糖廠的五分車到故宮南苑那現在大家如果搭高鐵到嘉義站直接出來以後就可以搭五分車,直接可以到故宮南苑那另外台鐵新過的通勤電雷車520輛也都投入營運了"},{"start":2158.406,"end":2172.395,"text":"另外就是在去年最重要一件事情就是台鐵公司化經過非常溝通然後也勞資協商的一個過程在去年的1月1號完成台鐵公司化"},{"start":2173.297,"end":2191.263,"text":"接下來報告機場的建設松山跟台中高雄這個是我們也完成2040年的整體規劃那行政院合併我們按照整體規劃的內容持續來加強建設那另外就是在去年的午夜我們南竿機場"},{"start":2192.703,"end":2212.571,"text":"這一個整修跟擴建工程完成那臺中機場很重要它的整個國內航線的這個整建還有臺東機場空撤的改善工程也在去年都完成了那另外桃園機場最重要的建設就是三航廈三跑道那其中涉及到航空城的這個徵收的一個計畫"},{"start":2215.132,"end":2226.705,"text":"我們在去年已經優先取得優先搬遷區的全部土地總共71%的搬遷已經都完成了"},{"start":2228.323,"end":2240.33,"text":"另外就是自由貿易港區的部分在第一期完成以後在去年6月我們增加了自動加值廠房總共3.4萬坪那這個在7月12日已經啟用它可以帶動大概5000個就業機會然後每年1.5兆的貿易額"},{"start":2250.339,"end":2275.655,"text":"港屋建設部分包括第7後櫃中心第一期在去年5月然後在去年3月就高雄禮安大樓也完工那另外就是禮安的風電我們現在的配合禮安風電的一個整個這個能源轉型的政策在禮安風電台中是一個很重要的一個基地那我們現在包括"},{"start":2276.696,"end":2303.403,"text":"在去年1月還有包括臺中港3738號碼頭還有高雄港的A6碼頭這個後方的這個填住工程都已經完成了那另外很重要臺中港南填方的開工它未來是一個所謂移動風機的一個基地這個也開始開工了那另外基隆港的部分基隆港部分是有一個很完整的一個計畫"},{"start":2304.505,"end":2327.364,"text":"那在去年底金融港的西遷工程的這個組建物都完成今年3月會全部都這個移過去那另外就是除了他的港戶設施這個包括西岸跟東岸的這些未來就是這個郵輪的這個基地這個都這個理應中心都已經完成了那另外在"},{"start":2329.794,"end":2352.893,"text":"國際觀光課的一個部分在觀光署在5月推動加速擴大吸引國際課的這個方案那在去年這個總共有648萬人次這已經比我們600萬人次已經比他多48萬那另外就是未來進一步的讓我們的這個觀光能夠在國際有競爭力"},{"start":2357.25,"end":2367.403,"text":"觀光署執行觀光前瞻計劃,這是110-114的計劃,包括打造東北角、北關、日月潭、阿里山、東海岸、澎湖6個國際魅力景區,總共24處亮點工程。"},{"start":2373.871,"end":2391.926,"text":"總共已經現在完成12項的這個亮點工程那另外就是油輪的部分我們在去年總共有327艘次有大概55萬人已經搭了油輪所以他的付出已經大概一半已經付出到一半那另外就是公共運輸的這個部分"},{"start":2394.281,"end":2403.914,"text":"TPAS通行業票在去年總共17個縣市實施那到去年12月底總共有387萬"},{"start":2406.941,"end":2431.572,"text":"9000人就是購買月票總共2.79億人這個使用那現在到2月底事實上已經3.65億所以那成長的非常的快那我們公共運輸的使用量增加15.05%那另外就是所謂偏鄉正義的部分新五八十是我們公務局很重要的一個政策到去年底總共173個鄉鎮436條路線"},{"start":2436.716,"end":2443.567,"text":"這個偏鄉的公共運輸率已經到91.97%另外在偏鄉正義有關離島的海運部分"},{"start":2444.941,"end":2470.922,"text":"我們新台馬輪這個是在4月16日投入這個營運另外澎湖輪在9月6日去年9月6日就是也投入這個營運那在智慧運輸的部分我們從109到112持續補助各縣市政府辦理這個車聯網的相關的一個計畫那在去年6月這個"},{"start":2473.154,"end":2478.904,"text":"2023的OMI-L Taipei Fly Fest這次在我們淡海來舉辦未來它會變成一個車輪碗的一個測試基地"},{"start":2483.169,"end":2503.545,"text":"另外在氣象服務的部分在中央氣象局在112年去年完成花蓮氣象雷達升級工程也整合7座氣象雷達偵測網另外他因為在海邊的這些比較危險所以25站的沿岸的自動氣象站這個完成"},{"start":2504.286,"end":2530.822,"text":"那另外就是很多爬山旅遊在山區的部分也需要去鄉的服務所以他們也做了山區暴雨的這個溪水暴漲警示系統這個現在有10個縣市19個溪流區在進行那我們郵政物流中心資訊中心在去年11月30號已經完工那大部分大家是最關心的"},{"start":2532.952,"end":2558.367,"text":"我們在道路交通安全基本法在今年1月1日很謝謝立法院交通委員的支持在1月1日已經實施了在今年1月25日第一次的中央道路交通安全匯報由陳院長來主持另外就是我們當天也通過國家道路交通安全綱要計劃"},{"start":2560.008,"end":2576.224,"text":"那這個計畫後續就是部會的這個年度的一些推動計畫以及這個縣市的一些執行計畫他們就按照這樣來進行那另外接下來包括這個"},{"start":2578.571,"end":2587.816,"text":"以下報告一三年的重要工作就今年的大概有哪些還會完工的第一個是國道7號偵測去市縣的這個工程這5月會通車那國道3號接66這個在這個10月那另外"},{"start":2597.581,"end":2614.335,"text":"東草屯休息站在這個7月會完工啟用那省道的部分包括臺二線宜蘭頭城這個透關就是大溪橋的這個改建這個在5月那另外就是花東縱谷的花蓮大禹到玉里的透關在6月完成"},{"start":2615.055,"end":2638.268,"text":"另外就是臺15縣跟臺4縣這個配合未來我們第三航道他會改縣這個在今年的10月臺15縣會做一個改道另外臺18的金輝橋這個是11月會來完成另外臺9縣花東縱谷景觀大道的護里到護南路段這也在12月會完工"},{"start":2639.787,"end":2656.049,"text":"議員會議員"},{"start":2656.149,"end":2680.643,"text":"今年第二季會完工那另外鐵路地下化的偵測後面臨時戰這在今年年底也會完工那有關於台鐵安全改革的部分這也是我們成立公司裡面最重要一件事情那安全委員會這個我們現在已經提了五年一起的安全提升計畫那也把整個安全的這個制度建立在這個組織成立安全管理的"},{"start":2681.323,"end":2681.683,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2698.591,"end":2715.097,"text":"今年也包括3號、海豐號這個完工來使用有關於機場的建設第三航廈朝115年第三跑道119年我們持續在進行另外就是"},{"start":2717.52,"end":2744.213,"text":"台灣機場的第2自由貿易港區總共73.69公頃這我們已經在規劃建設就未來在下一期的這個自由貿易港讓它能夠擴大那另外在港戶建設的部分在今年7月高雄港7候櫃會完全完工然後在今年的3月澎湖馬工的這個一號碼頭研建那未來讓這個15噸的郵輪也可以停靠"},{"start":2745.578,"end":2759.37,"text":"那另外就是風機基地在高雄港A6的這個部分113年會完成A6碼頭那另外台中港的3738跟南天荒就是持續進行在114年會完工"},{"start":2761.107,"end":2784.568,"text":"另外在觀光行銷部分今年會增設印度、印尼、法國的觀光服務處來擴大我們海外行銷的據點那另外就是觀光的建設包括重要觀光景區的中長城計畫還包括體驗觀光這個有升級計畫這個也持續在進行那今年就是以恢復到疫情前的1200萬為我們的目標"},{"start":2787.569,"end":2804.384,"text":"另外就是我們的國家智慧景區今年會成立智慧景區專案辦公室PMO來由5個公館處來做起另外我們為了福島產業在13年也要福島7家觀光旅館起的環保"},{"start":2805.225,"end":2806.206,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2830.452,"end":2843.867,"text":"離島的部分除了剛才談到兩艘船完成以後在今年7月白沙之星2號也會完工然後這個蘭嶼的跑道工程在6月也會完工"},{"start":2844.605,"end":2866.953,"text":"那智慧運輸的部分主要是針對智慧運輸系統而發展的建設配合5G的發展來提升我們運輸管理的效率那氣象裡面就包括我們第6代高速電腦的啟用還有現在也積極投入AI在氣象的這個業務那郵政物流園區這個北台灣物流中心"},{"start":2867.853,"end":2895.062,"text":"就是整體會在今年完全竣工那道安的部分今年我們以死亡下降5%新人死亡下降7、8為我們的目標那透過道路交通安全基本法以及我們包括永續提升新人安全的計畫的這個400億我們期待就是整個道安道安在今年已經有下降我們持續有更有一個大幅的一個下降"},{"start":2895.885,"end":2924.566,"text":"我想以下我就很簡單的報告,業務報告那進行各位委員指教,謝謝現在補充介紹在場委員陳樹葉委員林佩翔委員林國成委員現在進行選答先進行宣告以下事項"},{"start":2926.184,"end":2951.316,"text":"發言時間因為是交通部首次業務報告而讓各位委員有更充足的發言時間初期委員8加2分鐘列席委員6分鐘委員發言登記於10點30分截止各委員如有提案請於10點前提出以便醫師人員會診"},{"start":2954.353,"end":2964.71,"text":"暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則上不休息現在請登記第一位委員來發言請陳書業委員來代為主持"},{"start":2980.549,"end":2999.635,"text":"現在請登記第一位發言李坤澤召委發言謝謝陳書瑞委員請王國材部長、機場公司楊董事長楊董事長還有高鐵公司江耀忠董事長請江董事長"},{"start":3010.203,"end":3038.455,"text":"公路總局陳文瑞局長請陳文瑞局長好,再會長王部長民眾出國是基於商務考察、開會工作或者是旅遊探親等等都必須在好幾個月前做好相關的規劃要出國不是要去高雄看黃色小鴨"},{"start":3039.875,"end":3063.999,"text":"不是要去看五月天的演唱會都要好幾個月前就要做好相關的交通規劃因為還有轉機等等相關的重要因素去必須做考量但是我們看到桃園機場啊攔跑道的稅休造成大量旅客的權益受損我們看到旅客啊在機場徬徨無助憤怒挫惡"},{"start":3070.239,"end":3099.347,"text":"整個交通部、整個機場公司螺絲吊滿地那我們看到桃園機場的南跑道稅修的相關流程在去年11月開始規劃12月、今年1月、2月都有相關的聯席的這種邀集討論對象包括航空公司、代表聯席會相關的業者飛航管制單位、地勤業者等等"},{"start":3100.881,"end":3109.721,"text":"直到機場公司直到今年的2月21日才發布飛航的公告3月3日開始稅休"},{"start":3110.816,"end":3139.673,"text":"中間僅僅間隔了11天來請你們簡單說明一下我先簡單說明第一個這個跑道的稅休是航岸的一部分那的確台灣機場24小時營運封閉一個跑道的確影響很大那的確盧委員所說的他雖然在從去年就開始討論這個事情但是我覺得在2月21要發布非常公告"},{"start":3141.432,"end":3163.351,"text":"是不是包括航空公司還有民眾了解這個事情這個事的確有這裡面當然有很大的行政的瑕疵對於旅客的權利踐踏到這種程度全國民眾都非常的不滿對政府、對交通部的威信造成很大的衝擊那我先請教你們認為原因是什麼"},{"start":3166.465,"end":3181.351,"text":"第一個當然就是我們後來檢討就是發布非常公告應該在3個月前就發布然後你們只公布了11天那另外就是說在航管的部分就是說各國飛機到我們的飛揚情報區"},{"start":3182.671,"end":3183.372,"text":"部長有多少旅客受到影響?"},{"start":3211.991,"end":3212.651,"text":"那相關的旅客有沒有賠償的問題你們有做這樣的規劃嗎?是否賠償?"},{"start":3230.698,"end":3260.038,"text":"跟委員報告因為剛剛所提到的我們在規劃的過程是從去年11月就開始那這個討論呢其實是包含航空公司、航管等有關部門都大家一起來討論所以我們是在今年的1月下旬確定這個執行的日期是在3月份的第一個這個你們1月2月都有討論嘛然後到2月21才發布這個飛航的公告嘛"},{"start":3261.248,"end":3287.883,"text":"是跟委員報告我們的日期是會決定在先因為這樣的解釋民眾不會接受我認為部長跟桃居公司的董事長總經理應該在這裡公開的向所有的旅客跟國人公開的道歉來部長說明一下我真的對於3月3日當天造成這個民眾的不便我在這裡表示非常"},{"start":3290.083,"end":3314.01,"text":"抱歉我想說這部分3月3日發生以後我要請我們的次長進駐然後也做了標準作為程序的討論我想這一次事實上過去他都有稅休那的確是這次稅休的範圍比較廣所以時間比較長但是我覺得這個尤其現在已經恢復到全世界疫情後的恢復航班的情形我是覺得這個部分"},{"start":3315.09,"end":3343.798,"text":"已經有檢討過那我想我會請他們完全按照我們這個所檢討這個流程來處理部長我不客氣的講你督導不周我在這邊要更嚴厲的告訴機場公司的董事長跟總經理如果再有這種混亂的狀況你們兩個都必須要下台必須要負起相關的責任旅客的權利必須要用心去維護你們讓旅客在機場等待"},{"start":3345.066,"end":3346.327,"text":"接下來我要問高鐵公司"},{"start":3376.246,"end":3395.834,"text":"我們現在真的是在假日的時候一票難求尤其是以年假我們以2019跟2023的中秋的年假以它的平均日的運量來看2023比2019的中秋的日平均運量"},{"start":3397.247,"end":3414.619,"text":"每一天就大概多出2萬人左右 這個運量提升非常的大當然我們在2023的中秋及雙十年假 高鐵公司也全力要去做好運輸的工作我們有30組列車全部的出動 34組的列車全部出動"},{"start":3418.542,"end":3428.109,"text":"然後單日的班次也排到最高192班次但是部長跟董事長我們還是有旅客等車要等3個小時以上"},{"start":3429.832,"end":3455.765,"text":"這就是說我們相關的這些班次還必須要更有效的去做調整當然34組都已經動用全部都動用我們的新車12組要到2026的下半年才會到對不對董事長是的然後我們到2026車到要2027經過測試等等可能就要一年要到2027才能夠正式的營運"},{"start":3457.403,"end":3482.109,"text":"沒有錯那我們現在高鐵真的是一票難取尤其是假日的時候啦高鐵還沒有通車的時候我就在交通委員會那有多次你們都說高鐵公司要調整票價等等我就清楚的說明高鐵公司的問題是運量不是票價那現在運量逐漸的這樣的一個提升"},{"start":3483.157,"end":3491.352,"text":"那我先請教我們在之前有跟董事長跟總經理有討論我們高鐵的班次"},{"start":3492.659,"end":3516.073,"text":"在考量車輛的安全維修以及員工的工作權利等等是否還有再增加班次的這個空間尤其是7月7月馬上相關的假期就要到了來請董事長說明一下我們目前每週的班次是1060班那當然在3月份的"},{"start":3518.475,"end":3537.686,"text":"後兩個禮拜我們都有所謂應應短期的增班那到7月1號公司還會再檢討我們的場態的增班那以公司的這些運能來講我們是還有機會還可以增班還有機會大概能增加多少班"},{"start":3540.558,"end":3568.544,"text":"大約大約40班次好 董事長高鐵公司在運量的提升這方面有做出成績但是我還是認為增加班次是一個必然的趨勢但是一定要考量相關的車輛維護鐵道的保養以及相關員工的工時權利等等都要做好全部的一個規劃這個一定會這樣 謝謝好 那接下來"},{"start":3569.591,"end":3591.499,"text":"我要針對無照駕駛的部分來請教我們的部長部長我們交通部在駕駛人的這個教育跟監理方面的確是有做相關的一個規劃但是我們忽略了駕照有很多被吊銷、吊扣之後"},{"start":3592.93,"end":3612.905,"text":"沒有去考照、不願去考照、仍然無照駕駛這些有多少人呢?你知道嗎?有14萬人部長這5年來無照駕駛的累犯他的裁判的人數跟件數啊人數以今年來說以2023年去年來說啊達到14萬5318人"},{"start":3619.181,"end":3619.521,"text":"公務委員報告"},{"start":3648.43,"end":3669.931,"text":"因為無照駕駛我想我們大概可以分成三類第一類就是說比較年長的年長的就是說他有可能就是他可能因為之前也有就是說他可能沒辦法考上駕照那對於年長的需求的部分其實我們現在正在就是說在各村林裡坐這一個幸福巴士幸福小黃讓他們不用去騎車"},{"start":3672.173,"end":3698.192,"text":"談刑預約、用公車票價﹑可以達到計程車的服務這是一類第二類就是年幼18歲以下的18歲以下本來現在就是說依法令規定就是不能考駕照那如果說無照的部分的話其實這邊包括就是說列管以及就是講習其實講習的時候還要求就家長要共同來那賦予就是說家長也要這個督促這個年幼18歲以下的"},{"start":3698.812,"end":3717.294,"text":"第三類其實就是在這個18歲以上其實他是因為這個違規那重大的違規會被吊銷、吊扣、駕照那這個部分因為重大違規的處罰本來就應該就是說他有一個期間他比如說是3年、6年或是更長的你期間不能考照"},{"start":3718.094,"end":3743.648,"text":"這個部分的話我想在這一類的這個部分的話未來我們其實監理機關跟這個當地的警察機關我想在整個的一個這個名冊上面列管我們會跟因為這個本來這類的人就是處罰是不能上路的他在這個處罰吊銷吊扣期間是不能上路的那這個部分的話我想我們會跟這個警察機關共同就是說對於這類的人"},{"start":3745.149,"end":3745.71,"text":"現在請林國成委員發言"},{"start":3784.419,"end":3787.52,"text":"謝謝主席請我們部長請王部長另外一位早部長早我想剛才看到你的工作報告洋洋灑灑寫的八面玲瓏恰如無缺點但是事實上交通的問題缺點一大堆第一"},{"start":3814.161,"end":3828.312,"text":"我們就來談一談我們在制定法令的時候祭典政策那個是你決策的或者底下提出來的"},{"start":3829.861,"end":3835.723,"text":"部長拜託拜託我問你是底下決策或者你決策你回答我就好了最後是我決策是你決策其實說實在的部長"},{"start":3855.033,"end":3880.672,"text":"違規祭典這個政策當然有正反雙方也是俗語講的這個父子祈禮啦怎麼做都不對但是這裡啊改任何政策的時候要越改越好不是越改越錯誤所以啊我的認為啊這整個事件當然我也知道前兩天"},{"start":3882.11,"end":3898.44,"text":"你們的司長還有召開一個用路人跟使用人包括駕駛人等等這些去開一個針對這個亡羊補腦的一個政策去做協調溝通但是我要提供給部長的"},{"start":3899.434,"end":3925.396,"text":"就是你們這個政策制定的時候就是事前不溝通規劃不前面上路不宣導駕駛人不滿意行人不買單基層執行人員是不堪祈禱所以部長我本席的這種斷言你認為有沒有理由"},{"start":3926.867,"end":3943.742,"text":"的確我剛才講一半就去年這時候的新任第一讓我們覺得說從執法是一個短期的教育所以當時的確有這樣的氛圍所以我們也以此作為一個比較嚴格的政策雖然剛剛我有沒有在去年的這個政策事實上有它的效果"},{"start":3944.463,"end":3962.752,"text":"道安的數據都這個死亡都下降很多那的確在道路的條件還沒做好以前有很多比如說違違規的包括林庭等等的所以這個部分的確是你那個下降主要原因不是這個政策"},{"start":3963.752,"end":3990.377,"text":"下降主要原因有多重的原因會下降所以你不要把以為這個錯誤的政策你就把它當成是一個車後的下降其實這些臨庭、這些祭典根本不是降低所有車後主要原因所以啊我坦白跟你講針對這個針對這個祭典政策我坦白講"},{"start":3991.457,"end":4018.92,"text":"未謀其利先受其害你知道明艷是其嗎所以部長沒有關係你們現在已經在做亡羊補牢的動作但是我還是希望你們制定政策的時候千萬不要駕駛人跟行人去行人充體家具的這個政策這基本上不是老百姓要的東西嘛所以"},{"start":4020.644,"end":4044.026,"text":"我講實在的當然這有正反雙方當然要確保用路人那當然審視這個駕駛人但是這兩者之間你們在制定法令千萬不要制定下去又改就改這個政府威信會受損所以我還是要拜託我還是要拜託其實"},{"start":4045.367,"end":4063.515,"text":"我還是建議各地方政府他還沒有完善配套的東西千萬就不要貿然的實施所以亡羊補寮你們現在是有必要去做的所以這個祭典政策據說你們現在怎麼決定"},{"start":4065.026,"end":4094.506,"text":"我們現在就是違罪不祭典就1200塊以下我們就不祭典不能開放民眾檢舉另外有一個是進行舉花包括科技之外跟民眾這個檢舉的部分不祭典大概目前現在根本報告的確道安跟這個民怨中間要找一個平衡的很辛苦事實上比如說你現在簽一簽的賣員也有這個大家講說可能要3000元有的又太高等等的"},{"start":4095.126,"end":4124.669,"text":"有時候交通政策的確是很難找到平衡點的確我跟委包的確過去年這個決定我們當時是很急著要大量改善也的確沒有注意到剛才委員所提的這些環境的課題不是啊 這個部長當然啦 因為我不希望希望你們坐在辦公室去做任何政策違背民意違背製造民怨的東西啦這不管任何人執政另外"},{"start":4125.73,"end":4139.706,"text":"另外一回事但是老百姓他基本權利你說用路人的權利我基本上我是支持但是你不要忘了駕駛人的使用權利因為我們根本都沒有完善的規劃幾例"},{"start":4141.708,"end":4159.961,"text":"6都裡面紅線滿天灰你叫他怎麼不能臨庭呢尤其你要制定計程車司機我們台北市現在這個檢舉達人一大堆他有可能不要一個月有可能啊就是10天他就馬上達到12點"},{"start":4161.542,"end":4183.273,"text":"所以這點部長,你們現在既然在汪洋補牢,我希望做得透徹一點,不要造成民厭,你們就開始再做這些好不好我想這個社會的溝通,我想說我們現在是一個調整,雖然政策是改變,但是是一個調整到比較平衡的地方"},{"start":4184.233,"end":4186.316,"text":"部長還有跟你投訴一下有去參加你們協調會的人"},{"start":4199.972,"end":4216.522,"text":"我敬請你們師長在組織會議的時候還是要聆聽別人的意見不要自己先入為止你既然請他來就聽聽他們的意見再來做決定不要一意孤行 竭得官僚氣喜鼠祖這點我要鼓勵"},{"start":4218.143,"end":4218.483,"text":"我們說實在的"},{"start":4240.161,"end":4257.054,"text":"我們是來討論我們召集人所講的基礎是國際這種南機場修復老早就訂定的方法那請問一下你們不覺得你們協調溝通橫向聯繫是不足的這個就是啊"},{"start":4263.001,"end":4281.254,"text":"跟我剛剛跟你講的一樣我們交通部通通都是本位主義通通只要各自為政認為自己做的才是對這個是橫向聯繫不足嘛所以部長我要坦白跟你講你很認真做但是會咳嗽的人這樣扮我告訴你這個叫儀效國際"},{"start":4286.751,"end":4287.072,"text":"準備不足 因應時機"},{"start":4302.01,"end":4322.624,"text":"溝通失靈所以我要跟部長說這當然既然發生你如果已經搶修的所以我是覺得你們的因應真的失據嘛這老早要規劃的是你們修復的稅修的政策老早就要溝通的怎麼會發生這個事你剛才在說我剛才不是跟你說"},{"start":4326.026,"end":4353.675,"text":"這裡我有一個數據啦也就是影響很慘的是326班級的這裡面平均啊占14%啊30分占10%兩休息我告訴你人家都打亂人家來到台灣或者要出國的人回來你知道是什麼台灣政府都這樣不是說王國材不好而是台灣政府都這樣所以我希望"},{"start":4354.758,"end":4380.185,"text":"部長這個可能還是要加強一下最後最後我還是特別請那個觀光署其實蘇柳你拜訪我的時候說觀光做得很好我承認我承認但是我覺得有很多不好"},{"start":4382.819,"end":4407.053,"text":"我們國內的飯店的房價是多國外兩倍以上從三年前到現在成長百分之五十幾所以拜託我的主題你要發展觀光就是要有這種配套方式所以我要拜託"},{"start":4408.28,"end":4433.72,"text":"署長不是經費的問題做法的問題那飯店現在很簡單他都只有做禮拜六、禮拜天欸是南島最高的一枚一萬五千塊勒但是我到亞洲地區去啊我兩萬多我可以設五間你想一想你怎麼發展觀光所以拜託署長拜託部長我跟你講"},{"start":4435.421,"end":4435.501,"text":"我們來介紹,謝謝"},{"start":4460.834,"end":4465.316,"text":"林委員發言完畢。現在請廖先祥委員發言。好,謝謝趙委員。那一樣麻煩我們的部長。請王部長。部長今天一樣先來跟您討論行人的問題。"},{"start":4485.805,"end":4509.742,"text":"行人在我們的交通法規當中他大概是一個族群嘛齁行人的族群但是其實行人也是非常的多元那包括我們每一個位都是行人有我們一般的成年人那有引法族有主拐杖的有推輪椅的那有小朋友會亂跑的嘛對不對那相對起來我們的引法族走在我們的人行道的時候他相對走的比較慢一點嘛"},{"start":4510.583,"end":4529.948,"text":"那他可能被碰撞受傷的可能性也比較高一點相對起來是比較脆弱一點的那我們有沒有曾經考慮過在這個人行道規劃我們銀髮族的一個專區請我們的銀髮族走在特定的區域請他們不要走在其他的地方我們交通部有這樣子的考慮過嗎"},{"start":4531.848,"end":4554.634,"text":"我目前大概這樣第一個因為人行道是共用當然就是說第一點就是把實體人行道做出來所以我們現在有4年4百億的預算我們真的很歡迎各縣市來申請我們就趕快的補助但是我們現在對於比如說螢化族常出入的或學校的這附近這個有一個計畫專門在做這個方面比如說"},{"start":4559.436,"end":4584.997,"text":"我只是想問我們部長有沒有去思考過做區隔這件事情有一點困難因為人行道反正不管你的速度快慢都在那邊走嘛那當然過去我們討論到比如說腳踏車應該分離這個事但是一般來講是整體是公用公用嘛但是在比如說醫院老人家出公用然後畫出來甚至可能會有歧視的問題嘛"},{"start":4595.08,"end":4608.883,"text":"既然我們在人行道有不同的族群在上面使用我們不會要求不同的族群去使用不同的範圍大家都共用那為什麼在我們的道路的規劃上面使用有那麼多的近行機車"},{"start":4611.187,"end":4635.18,"text":"我剛剛委員報告這個問題我已經跟很多人都談過我們經營機車不是比如說歧視機車主或是對他不公平因為在過去的研究裡面當你車種分離的時候是比較安全的因為那剛剛講人行道的部分老人家跟小牌子分開走也比較安全你要不要讓老人家自己走一個通道人跟人之間的"},{"start":4636.254,"end":4655.725,"text":"﹗"},{"start":4655.905,"end":4681.075,"text":"如果機車開在外側、騎在外側﹖有很多的公車﹖像新北很多這種公車或是重車﹖這時候只要它超過每小時170輛﹖我們就認為它的內側應該開完給機車走﹖所以不限車道﹖對,我們也有這樣的一個權宜措施﹖並不是叫它完全是分隔﹖指引出來了嗎﹖已經給地方政府了﹖"},{"start":4682.415,"end":4694.947,"text":"就是當我們外側車道的車輛的使用大型車如果一小時170輛以上大型車包括公車或是這個貨車等等還要大型車喔大型對機車的這個比較嚴重是"},{"start":4697.95,"end":4714.058,"text":"因為我們的一直以來地方政府有時候在推動這個交通行情的時候包括機車行駛權益的時候常常會因為我們的道路交通安全規則嘛那第99條的規定那常常會不敢開放"},{"start":4715.217,"end":4731.67,"text":"我們交通部長期來應該也收到許多民間團體的陳情我們這部分有沒有經過有沒有這個做過討論要來把它做適度的放寬我一點都不是說機車你要我現在是從安全來看比如說包括他們在談的兩段式左轉"},{"start":4733.252,"end":4748.747,"text":"在過去研究是比較安全的可是當你這個我剛才談到的重車很多他要兩道式左轉在跑的過程中可能會跟重車有衝突的時候我們是覺得他就是直接左轉所以我意思是說機車我們並不是說完全的車種分離"},{"start":4750.208,"end":4770.473,"text":"但是要看哪一個比較安全所以我們也給地方政府一個指引就是說你去看如果真的是走這個開放機車走內線車道比較安全你就應該開放我們也給這樣的一個指引現在包括像新北啦那個很多很多已經這樣做了是好就是如果說地方政府認為開放內設車道比較安全的話"},{"start":4773.466,"end":4786.06,"text":"可以權宜措施為什麼是原則禁止、例外開放而不是原則開放、例外禁止因為危險禁止嘛對不對合理嘛但是你沒有辦法說他不安全的情況下"},{"start":4793.877,"end":4807.665,"text":"你的意思就是說機車行駛在不同車道它會不安全嗎?所以你去禁止它嗎?我們現在是原則禁止、例外開放嘛對不對?有沒有機會調整成原則開放、例外禁止?因爲你說安全嘛對不對?結果現在要你例外禁止的時候你又提不出理由啊"},{"start":4821.232,"end":4822.413,"text":"因為你們剛剛說機車行駛在這內車車道它是相對危險的啊 對不對"},{"start":4841.009,"end":4859.154,"text":"如果外面齁比如說外車沒有重車的時候我們是覺得車種分離是比較安全的是應該這樣你們認為車種分離那一樣啊那你就可以訂定你們的這個指導原則啊怎樣的情況下是危險的狀況啊我們建議地方政府在某種情況下進行機車啊"},{"start":4860.535,"end":4879.436,"text":"我們給他一個指引是這個重車的這個輛數那我們也給他一個彈性就是說他可以比如說重燃重車沒有到170輛他覺得這個整個路型來看這個就是把責任推給地方政府啊地方政府又要去扛這個責任那個亮爺我跟你報告啊比如說"},{"start":4880.497,"end":4903.413,"text":"每一個選舉的縣市長對於縣市的交通安全他有他想要做的事你知道嗎議員也一樣啊你一樣啊所以我們當然可以禁止啊我們依照標誌標籤的規則我們當然可以禁止啊你認為危險你禁止啊而且這樣齁那個如果我們不因地制宜齁那個type太多了我沒有說不能因地制宜啊我說你認為危險你可以禁止啊但為什麼不是原則開放"},{"start":4905.439,"end":4920.54,"text":"這是我們的政策是沿著你要去限制人民的自由你應該是要另外有絕對的理由你才能去禁止人民的這個通行的自由嘛對不對就是安全對啊所以我說你可以因為安全的理由地方政府去規劃進行機車啊"},{"start":4923.154,"end":4936.746,"text":"你政府不能無緣無故定在一個上位計畫就在怎樣的條件就要禁止應該是要說我們不能夠去限制他們的使用原則上但是如果說我們在規劃的時候認為這樣子危險現況是危險的我們可以來做調整阿"},{"start":4941.64,"end":4946.925,"text":"我們的政策的確是車種分離,現在的政策是這樣,車種分離就是沿著禁止例外開放那就是你們政策錯誤啊,造成還在交通事故零死亡"},{"start":4963.081,"end":4980.99,"text":"每年那麼多人計測在外面發生事故事如果你剛才談的這個政策一變的話能改善我也可以接受但是問題是大家分析不是這樣台北市做了那麼多的分析對不對好沒關係喔時間有限我們進行下一個議題喔"},{"start":4982.429,"end":5005.92,"text":"一樣是行人的權益我們在112年12月5號的時候有頒發剛剛部長有報告道路交通安全法對不對那道路安全法的第一條就很明確的寫以達道路交通事故臨死亡的願景那請教一下部長這個我們這個法頒布之後我們應該是很認真在推動"},{"start":5006.9,"end":5035.055,"text":"那禮拜一我們召開了一個說明會交通違罪不計點且民眾不得計點不得舉發這件事情也是我們道路交通安全法推行的一部分嗎你認為剛剛我們說明會這樣子的一個方向對於我們邁向臨死亡這件事情是有幫助的嗎這個是一個暫時的一個權益措施就是說我道路交通的環境還沒有整人命是有暫時的措施嗎"},{"start":5036.26,"end":5053.368,"text":"你可以說你先去死一死改天再回來嗎可是那個你看到最近剛才包括首爾德在看就是說包括民營院他沒辦法停車造成了祭典人命跟這些東西比較起來孰輕孰重應該很明顯不用去比較吧"},{"start":5055.72,"end":5077.591,"text":"其實現在在交通檢舉的項目已經大幅的限縮一般的紅黃線沒辦法檢舉都是重大的違規才能夠檢舉的所以一般我們職業駕駛遇到的問題其實現在已經不太容易遇到了民眾沒辦法檢舉了嘛那現在會遇到的問題是什麼你停在人行道上面民眾也沒辦法檢舉啊對不對我其他真的不在乎啦你在馬路上有一些行為有時候大家在"},{"start":5079.096,"end":5080.557,"text":"邀請交通部長王國材列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":5103.168,"end":5103.608,"text":"廖委員發言完畢現在請黃建豪委員發言"},{"start":5133.571,"end":5141.036,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉我們事先請部長跟中華電信請王部長還有請中華電信董事長"},{"start":5144.583,"end":5169.24,"text":"委員好我想啊臺灣的這個詐騙問題非常非常的嚴重那我想政府也多次的講說我們要來打擊詐騙但是本席今天質詢的時候要指出一件事情包含稍早的時候我們有開一個記者會中華電信會不會成為這個詐騙的共犯或者是我當然你知道你沒有翻譯啦但是會被這個詐騙集團來利用"},{"start":5172.128,"end":5190.212,"text":"我們講個案子 2021年2月28號的時候有一間這個魔方移動股份有限公司NCC就已經廢止了他所謂的第二類電信事業的全部業務這個時間點是2021年2月8號他就被廢止了但是如果你現在上網搜尋這個魔方移動魔方電信因為這間公司他設置在台中"},{"start":5202.253,"end":5216.931,"text":"我們上網看他的這個網站裡面還有所謂的行動轉售跟加持服務的營業規章他的合作電信業者很擺明的寫的就是寫的中華電信那中華電信裡面這個部分魔方運動的合約裡面也提到"},{"start":5218.424,"end":5232.814,"text":"他的規章裡面他的業務合作的範圍合作的公司就是向中華電信來承租他的行動網路業務經營那租用他的門號跟服務那再向用戶來提供行動轉售跟相關的加值服務簡單來講"},{"start":5235.642,"end":5254.055,"text":"這間魔方移動他是把他的所謂的這個業務範圍建立在中華電信的業務上面然後提供給所謂的詐騙集團提供給很多的使用者來使用他在販賣他的這個門號的時候他會強調保證是全新號碼吃到飽無限制流量"},{"start":5254.975,"end":5280.891,"text":"安全無虞吃到飽跟號碼可以完全的分開追蹤不易號碼保證絕不輪轉兩個月內可以無限的收發驗證碼那獨立的海外系統防止駭客入侵提供三組號碼可以一直來收發簡訊APP所以我常常想包含我自己在內我們常常覺得說為什麼會常常收到什麼標股的簡訊常常收到很多投資的簡訊常常很多的我們的民眾受害者被詐騙集團的欺騙原來"},{"start":5282.259,"end":5289.35,"text":"找到原因了就是因為有很多所謂的二類的業者他是在跟中華電信來使用相關的服務而且"},{"start":5290.376,"end":5317.628,"text":"最嚴重是什麼我要講的是說當然如果今天是合法的商業行為我們沒辦法智慧但是今天提到了這個像剛剛提到這個魔方電信魔方移動公司他在2021年他就早就被NCC廢止的相關的業務了但是他卻還能夠持續的來跟中華電信來合作那包含去年減掉的偵辦還有今年齁今年2024年1月的時候雲林地檢署的起訴文件也都提到"},{"start":5318.717,"end":5347.463,"text":"我發現他是向這個中華電信來申請企業門號跟賣藥門號提供給這個上海族裔公司來使用那當然這過程很複雜但總之就是讓這個上海族裔公司再把這個門號提供給詐騙集團詐騙集團再來詐騙我們台灣的民眾到了今年都還有這樣的事情當然去年還有另外一間叫做這個海峽電信公司也是用同樣的手段來做這件事情所以今天要問的是我想問中華電信還有問我們部長"},{"start":5348.803,"end":5363.288,"text":"如果未來還有相關的業務中華電信要不要負連帶賠償責任以及中華電信你們有沒有去清查過在這個二類電信終止之後有多少公司到現在還跟中華電信有合作關係"},{"start":5365.991,"end":5383.968,"text":"報告委員,有關中華電信跟MVNO業者相關的合作規範都是依照通常會的規範來辦理陳路委員剛才提到前年2021年之後電信法轉軌到電信管理法"},{"start":5384.528,"end":5411.546,"text":"那麼相關的業者在申請轉軌過程當中繼續在向這個通傳會在申請這個執照當中那麼我們目前這個合作的範圍呢並沒有收到任何這個各自外洩的議題那麼剛才委員所提到的這個相關的內容呢據我們目前的了解是並不是中華電信或者是魔方這個銷售出去的"},{"start":5411.96,"end":5426.833,"text":"那相關的細節內容我們﹖你說不是模範移動消息﹖但我也是檢察官這不是我講的這是榆林地檢署2024年也就是今年現在是3月嘛今年1月的時候榆林地檢署的起訴文件他就提到"},{"start":5428.034,"end":5454.677,"text":"檢察官偵辦的這個魔方移動他就是向中華電信申請基業門號當然他最後賣出去他不是用魔方移動來賣他是就轉給所謂台灣左翼跟上海左翼來賣給這個詐騙集團當然導致了詐騙行為這個偵辦過程是因為去查這個電信門號才發現了這一層關係所以當然中華電信沒有直接賣給詐騙集團我知道"},{"start":5455.612,"end":5480.585,"text":"中華電信賣個魔方移動魔方移動再賣個臺灣卓一臺灣卓一再賣個上海卓一上海卓一再賣個詐騙集團他經過了多層所以當然你們沒有直接關係嘛那我今天要問你說今天既然已經知道像這個魔方移動有這樣子的案子出現那他也已經被NCC廢止相關的使用執照中華電信還會繼續跟這樣業者合作嗎未來還會繼續合作嗎中華電信不會跟詐騙集團合作我知道你不會跟他合作啦"},{"start":5480.945,"end":5503.896,"text":"第二個那個剛才提到的議題齁那個中華電信銷售給魔方的門號只能在國外使用那麼這個相關國外使用的剛才您提到那個上海那個個案那個我們的了解是不是魔方銷售出去的那個部分是另外的這個銷售的管道出去的所以你們意思是說你們現在如果魔方連中跟你們買你們還是會賣給他"},{"start":5505.202,"end":5523.917,"text":"那這個部分我們如果這個相關的這個跟業者合作有涉及到任何疑似詐欺的部分我們都會嚴謹來積極處理那謝謝委員指教部長我想這個詐騙不是只有檢調單位的責任我想檢調也常常抱怨說很無力"},{"start":5524.417,"end":5539.766,"text":"每個部會之間好像互相的溝通系統有問題我想今天這是個明顯的案例不然說我們今天中華電信還在強調說當然對你們的立場來講你們覺得你們認為說這個不是魔方魚都賣出的但他一系列這樣操作下來最後回到"},{"start":5540.946,"end":5556.881,"text":"騙到這個臺灣民眾的時候他的源頭就是來自於魔方運動當初跟中華電信成株的這個門號嘛所以才有這樣的結果啊這不是我講的例如說不是那你去找檢調人會說這個不是我想這個檢察官很明顯的起訴文件裡面就已經提到"},{"start":5557.341,"end":5571.079,"text":"模仿移動或類似這種二類電信公司就是跟你們承租承租完之後再轉手賣給其他業者那他去做其他的操作最後再回過頭來詐騙所以我們將強調說相關的法令我們希望中華電信跟交通部這邊應該去研擬起來"},{"start":5573.101,"end":5588.699,"text":"如果已經被廢紙執照了：如果他有相關的案例出現：他就不應該再去做這個這樣子應用：而不是說：對這問題來講我沒差：我賣給魔方運動他沒有騙人：是魔方運動賣給其他公司：其他公司去騙人的：這樣不對啊：我們希望今天做的是源頭控管："},{"start":5589.588,"end":5589.688,"text":"主席"},{"start":5619.668,"end":5644.091,"text":"你們第一當然我在強調的是模方移動他的確沒有直接的騙人他是把東西賣給別人讓別人來騙那這個行為到底跟中華電信有沒有關係因為你們是這個關國所以我們才特別提出來不能因為中華電信你們掌握的門號數你們掌握的個資比其他電信公司來的更多更直接而且大家可能也信任中華電信所以這部分我們希望還是要提一個完整的方案好"},{"start":5644.551,"end":5673.731,"text":"接下來這個案子先這樣子我們後續再討論接下來我們還提到這個這兩天這個逃機跑到稅休導致航班大亂的問題我們看到說這個排名下降的時候2022年降到67名2023年到82名的時候這個逃機公司當初回應講說未來會積極的相關協調相關業務來共同努力優化經濟從整體服務、零外交通、便利通關等等來改善提升大家的旅客服務的滿意度但是馬上就發生了這兩天的這個事件我想這個"},{"start":5675.031,"end":5693.584,"text":"在交通上面我想這個塔台跟淘氣公司這邊是不是沒有做一個做足這個準備還是維持原來的管制措施從我們收到的資料來看到原定的這個規定當然是120秒放飛一次那因為塞機之後你們才去調整調整成90秒跟60秒放飛有沒有這個事情"},{"start":5696.399,"end":5696.98,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5711.21,"end":5736.147,"text":"當然我只要確認有沒有這個時間而已那原則上呢兩架飛機離場的話離場依規定是120秒那後來有沒有縮到90秒他要看航行所謂的90的話就是說有沒有授權塔台可以90秒60秒這個他是因為航機不一定都是大型機對他可能有大小型機所以如果說你兩個離場的航機的話如果你起飛後能夠立即轉彎"},{"start":5737.328,"end":5752.157,"text":"然後跟後續的離場行進能夠有一個15分鐘時間不夠這個下一頁我們桃園機場的這個做要點面單跑到的時候每小時離到場總價是最大是每小時30價次但是我們根據預報表看到"},{"start":5753.378,"end":5774.827,"text":"3月3日當天有685架次最密集的時候是46架那等於你們的這個航管要點參考用的嘛單跑道本來說只用每小時30架次但是在3月3日當天最大的時間的時候685架最大的這個離場架次達到46架那不就表示說你們這個SOP是參考用而已嗎"},{"start":5776.541,"end":5794.541,"text":"我想這一個所謂的離場航班的一個調整這個部分其實要分開來講就是說如果你這個是例行的稅休其實你在前面需要去考慮到說一個尖峰小時大概剛剛講兩分鐘來算大概是30架單跑道"},{"start":5795.162,"end":5811.766,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":5812.085,"end":5834.228,"text":"如果前面沒有做適度的調整宣導後面就是靠流管當場的應變那流管這個應變事實上我們要跟鄰居協調啊這個機制都是協調好那什麼時候去啟動這個流管因為流管的作業是把航機等於說到我們家的要到到場的航機會攔在前一點"},{"start":5834.969,"end":5835.489,"text":"黃委員發言完畢現在請林沛翔委員發言"},{"start":5871.645,"end":5878.356,"text":"主席請王部長上台請王部長另外一張"},{"start":5880.883,"end":5900.4,"text":"王部長,請我在你們這份報告裡面看了洋洋灑灑看了一堆我發覺在67到68年你們對TPAS的這個功能性你們覺得很自豪但是我必須提醒你們看到TPAS的功能性其實實質上是大幅度被削弱的而且削弱得很厲害"},{"start":5901.241,"end":5902.462,"text":"對於公路的運輸是加每個月增加11.5%但實際上其實看不到、看得到、吃不到"},{"start":5918.49,"end":5918.51,"text":"請下頁"},{"start":5941.214,"end":5968.816,"text":"這是昨天晚上在市府轉運站1815等車的狀況當下有超過300人在那邊等車而我本期在那邊從9點半到10點的時候我在那邊等1815這台車是基隆市目前運量第二大的國道公路路線但是那個時候能夠上車的如果我記得我本期沒有記錯的話在150人左右裡面差不多只有50個人能上的了車"},{"start":5969.697,"end":5996.013,"text":"而這個擁捨的狀況非常的嚴重在下一頁在第二個2088是更大的一條是目前基隆市最大的客運路線而2088這條線呢好一點在短短的30分鐘裡面有將近5班車平均每班車有20多個人但是像這樣的狀況是如果說在我本席只是臨時去抽查在昨天晚上9點下一頁"},{"start":5999.447,"end":6019.084,"text":"本期只是臨時去搜查在昨天晚上9點半到10點之間我就看到這樣的狀況的話我想在台北市的每一個大站點我們都會看到同樣的基隆人甚至桃園人遇到同樣的國道客運班次的問題我們等車的時間實質上是越來越長的因為"},{"start":6019.784,"end":6047.363,"text":"有班次不夠因為司機不夠因為國道客運法因為運輸業管理規則其實事實上已經不符合時宜TPAS的成立對於全部的通勤族來講是件好事但是目前來講因為我們準備的資源不管是班次也好司機也好甚至車子也好我聽說我們的這個中央政府要求我們的巴士全面電動化"},{"start":6049.665,"end":6065.809,"text":"但是全面電動化的話目前我知道客運業者跟得上能夠跟得上這進度的人沒幾個啊那你補助又不夠的時候你這樣不是硬生生的逼著業者不得不去違法不得不去趕不上要求嗎這一點來講我認為運輸業管理規則如果要很快速的改變的話運輸業管理規則"},{"start":6071.87,"end":6084.084,"text":"這件事情會是未來在交通委員會在您任內不管下一項520之後您做不到交通部部長這件事情必須要馬上解決這個不關政治這是民生的問題請部長回答"},{"start":6086.707,"end":6107.859,"text":"的確基隆的客運就像委員所提的事實上如果以這樣的看式如果服務都提供的話那個更多人搭乘用T-pass更多人的確現在主要是在司機還有包括在這一次在基隆的國道客運這個首都退出以後他服務品質是比較差的"},{"start":6108.579,"end":6134.21,"text":"所以我們在這段時間也做了很多的改善那其中有一個是司機的課題司機課題在我們公路局等一下局長做一個補充他事實上有幫忙代信司機但是這個腳步的確疫情過後我認為司機的問題是其次而是在於業者是不是能夠合理有效的調度司機的班次我覺得才是我們現在真的要討論的問題"},{"start":6135.45,"end":6163.709,"text":"而這個問題上面國道客運跟一般公車我們上次在總諮詢的時候我們曾經討論過1.4公里1.4塊1公里的補助跟2.3塊1公里的補助基本上這個其實是很不合理的第二件事情就是說讓空車繼續跑讓司機開空車然後造成成本的增加這個對國道客運的業者來講也是很辛苦的所以本席在這邊強力"},{"start":6165.831,"end":6180.633,"text":"強力訴求應該要把雙北化成一個首都生活圈或首都交通圈讓基隆、桃園、宜蘭三邊的國道公車變成所謂的城際公車這樣能夠快速的解決我們現在遇到國道客運的問題"},{"start":6183.437,"end":6187.139,"text":"現在基本上就是一個生活圈,宜蘭基隆雙北"},{"start":6212.356,"end":6227.221,"text":"再來我在1到10頁部長講的在你的這份報告裡面寫最多是1到10頁的公路工程尤其是國道交流道的設置那上次我們在總諮詢的時候"},{"start":6228.641,"end":6250.4,"text":"部長一直提說軌道運輸其實某個程度上是為了都市規劃而設計的但是本席認為公路工程跟我們的國道交流道的設置才是針對國家的區域發展有長足的幫助在我到一到十頁裡面每一個你設置的這個設置的這些交流道裡面高工局都負責設計都跟用地取得工程發包"},{"start":6251.201,"end":6275.941,"text":"然後尤其最好的例子是國道33接66號快速道路國道1號接74號快速道路這方面的事情的話本席在這邊強烈推強烈建議以下幾個幾條路線我認為國道交流道這邊的工程應該延伸到那邊去第一個在基隆市安樂區國家新城地區目前那邊只有不到0.9平方公里就有15000人住在那個區域"},{"start":6277.282,"end":6302.316,"text":"而一萬五千元區域之外還加一個貨櫃場在那0.9平方公里裡面而只有一條兩線道的道路要開差不多將近1.5公里才能接上國道那這件事情其實我造成說安樂區我目前最大的選區造成常態性的大塞車天天早上都在塞車我認為這樣的困境應該需要交通部來幫忙這是第一個第二個"},{"start":6303.41,"end":6319.201,"text":"每週末我們都知道說往金山萬里都有大量的觀光客在塞車那這個問題已經不是單單純基隆市的問題包括新北的問題也常浮現而我也知道說這條高速公路為什麼會塞車主要原因是經過"},{"start":6321.583,"end":6337.852,"text":"國道3號基金交流道而基金交流道那邊要直接到金山萬里必須經過整個大武倫地區而大武倫地區嚴格講起來那邊住住有3萬人住在那邊而最主要的是國道3號並沒有一個往西向的交流道引道"},{"start":6338.892,"end":6365.416,"text":"我們如果部長還是我們的高工局的主管開過條路的時候你會發現說國道3號有到62號往東向也就是往瑞芳甚至九份方向去跑的交流道但是並沒有往西向但是本席在這邊強烈建議與其你們再重新開一條高速公路直達萬里金山倒不如好好去想一想國道3號怎麼樣去連接往西向的交流道"},{"start":6366.384,"end":6394.374,"text":"委員我能不能簡單說明一下那個國家新城的話印象中的話他是西邊是隔一個新山水庫才到國道3號所以要做可信性評估阿他應該是做一條聯絡道路看看這聯絡道路怎麼處理我先把我這邊的訴求先講清楚因為這個是工層面我認為我們如果在在工層面在不影響水庫安全的情況下我們都是可以克服的他距離國道還有1公里多"},{"start":6395.154,"end":6397.916,"text":"國道1號在於苗栗市玉清大橋這邊其實應該設一個交流道連接72號來幫助苗栗的苗中地區的經濟發展"},{"start":6411.387,"end":6423.456,"text":"這個部分以前有討論過他有高低差的問題而且那地方是崩潑曾經有癱滑過所以目前來講說那個山齁是不是我覺得可行性評估我覺得以前有處理過那請給我資料第4個我在第4頁第7項的時候我有看到國道1號"},{"start":6430.36,"end":6446.099,"text":"無篤交流道到矽脂交流道有投函計畫但是我們目前本席要求會後你要給我詳細的書面資料然後我之後我要再從這邊再去做質詢而最後一點我是目前我想請問一下因為本席以前曾經在港務公司任職過"},{"start":6447.04,"end":6475.222,"text":"在高雄的旅運中心當初是認為這個建造的經費是比基隆的旅運中心來得高很多的我記得如果沒有錯話高達20億以上那請問一下基隆港現在的旅運中心進度怎麼樣因為部長您也講過捷運到基隆捷運一定到我有生之年捷運一定到基隆市區但是如果以當初的計畫沒有錯話捷運到基隆市區的最後一站是基隆港的旅運中心那我想請教目前進度是怎麼樣"},{"start":6475.742,"end":6476.543,"text":"當時的話在99年的話是有一個規劃旅運大樓"},{"start":6497.606,"end":6499.09,"text":"那請問西六碼頭現在空在那邊做什麼?"},{"start":6507.401,"end":6516.388,"text":"那個計畫在103年的時候因為西岸會展旅運智慧大樓那同時之間也是基隆捷運最後一站那我想請問交通部"},{"start":6532.172,"end":6558.43,"text":"目前的規劃是什麼?現在這樣啦,旅運大樓現在西岸就是西2、西3嘛那個就是你們所謂的旅運大樓那你講的在西3碼頭那個他們現在還在準備花包現在西6的話,西6的部分的話就是我們有這跟當初國際標那個建築物差太多了吧當初開國際標還是那時候還是被國際認為說是優良建築物所以現在變成是什麼都不是的倉庫"},{"start":6560.213,"end":6580.208,"text":"他是最主要是涉及那個那下面有有有所謂捷運的規劃嗎文資的問題延伸線會有延伸線如果我從八堵進來以後我們當時的端點的那個地方怎麼進來就是進到進來以後就直接到你講的西當時的規劃了到西六啊西六就是跟這個林大樓這個"},{"start":6581.169,"end":6599.194,"text":"所以延續總實習我希望交通部可以主動負責起第二階段的基礎決定規劃應該這麼說西岸的李映大樓現在我們算完工就是這個有了報告那西六就是後續再來處理這樣好 林委員發言完畢林委員所"},{"start":6600.574,"end":6611.82,"text":"質詢的問題請港務公司再次跟林委員來做說明現在我們在陳素悅委員發言完畢之後要休息10分鐘來現在請陳素悅委員發言謝謝主席請主席邀請王部長還有陶基公司楊董事長陶基公司楊董事長"},{"start":6626.51,"end":6656.51,"text":"陳偉"},{"start":6657.191,"end":6664.046,"text":"不是第一次嘛,這應該是屬於常態性的工作過去都很短啦,有的是半天,這一次因為範圍比較大"},{"start":6665.798,"end":6684.626,"text":"所以時間比較長對,所以就是說這個是一個常態性的工作那為什麼以前不會發生這種塞機的狀況那這一次為什麼發生這樣子的起降大亂嚴重的塞機所以我們要去好好的檢討到底是什麼原因造成的那剛剛部長說是因為這個範圍比較廣"},{"start":6690.53,"end":6710.207,"text":"應該說廣,時間變比較長但是我覺得最大原因應該是在通知的時間比較短所以包括航空公司跟民眾不知道這個狀況所以我們現在的想法是所以這個通知是屬於行政作業嘛對那這就有涉及到這都島是不是我們的這個都島不周的這個狀況"},{"start":6712.216,"end":6737.063,"text":"是那個第一個當然是通知所以大家在因應比如說航空公司在他的航班的調整這個沒辦法到位那第二個我是覺得在航管方面航管未來在事實上剛才在談一個就是說進入我們飛行情報區之前要做管制不要說一定飛到我們空中在那邊盤選對因為我覺得這種狀況真的是蠻嚴重的因為這個也涉及到飛安的一個這個"},{"start":6739.784,"end":6741.145,"text":"我們有考慮研究賠償的問題嗎?有"},{"start":6770.929,"end":6799.12,"text":"是不是容我來做一個補充報告首先謝謝委員的指教那這一次的稅修會有這樣的一個情況是過去我們在稅修工程的經驗裡面有一些盲點沒有去處理好那除包括剛剛提到的相關單位的通告、通知在前次會議的過程當中都有邀請但是在執行之前沒有再一次做的確認另外還有一個問題就是我們過去的飛航通告是依據民進黨法規的一個國際的要求"},{"start":6799.68,"end":6816.429,"text":"在90天之內要公告但是我們現在欠缺的是對我們國內的旅客或者國際的旅客還有包括航空公司的配合的調度措施對旅客的部分讓他們及早做準備所以這些整個系統性的檢討這一兩天我們已經積極的在進行當中"},{"start":6818.69,"end":6842.227,"text":"公司內部的部分我們已經在昨天跟前天做檢討下個禮拜我們會邀請其他系統性跟這種案子有關的相關單位包括民航局、波瓦航空公司等等在進一步檢討會提出一個詳細的檢討報告那也藉這個機會再向我們的社會大眾非常鄭重的道歉基層公司這一次系統性的整合沒有做好的地方我們會積極的改進謝謝"},{"start":6844.548,"end":6861.813,"text":"謝謝楊董事長那我再請教一下部長因為這樣子的一個風波也導致外界批評說我們在逃機人士上的一個安排好像是有酬庸的這種狀況那這部分是不是可以請部長回覆一下"},{"start":6862.835,"end":6877.346,"text":"事實上第一個他們談這個楊董事長因為楊董事長本人土木水利那您知道而且是以前過去是台電的董事長那過去這個淘機電跟水是裡面很重要的一部分基礎設施"},{"start":6878.627,"end":6905.264,"text":"然後我們現在還在做三行下三跑道的建設所以事實上就是當台階董事長不是只有什麼學交通的要因應當時比如現在是以建設為主基礎設施的強韌為主所以當時這個大家有幾個人選最後選到楊董事長是這樣那另外有談到說是不是有特定比如說誰來推薦誰我昨天有跟這個董事長有討論過沒有認"},{"start":6907.145,"end":6926.596,"text":"沒有這個所指的比如說副院長去交代人事這個事情他們是按照他的徵選程序那因為他進來的人也不是很高層級的如果你高層級可能要跟院討論所以這個部分是這個陶吉本儀他的徵選的這個公告以後所選出來的人大概是這樣"},{"start":6928.022,"end":6949.998,"text":"我們當然也願意選擇相信部長的說法因為我們也知道桃園機場這幾年來很重要的一項工作就是第三航廈還有這個第三跑道的一個興建工程那這個都是非常重大的工程那在第三航廈的這個整個發包過程真的也是延誤很久我們也期待就是說能夠藉由專業人才來擔任這個職務能夠讓這個工程能夠順利不過發生了這個風波當然就會"},{"start":6957.684,"end":6984.646,"text":"讓外界對我們這個逃機的人士的能力會有一些大打折扣我們也希望是不是請楊董事長還有我們相關的總經理等等要將功贖罪是不是之後要積極的有所作為包括這個就是整個機場的運作或者是工程的一個進度等等我們都應該擔起更大的一個責任是不是請董事長說明一下"},{"start":6985.126,"end":7000.235,"text":"非常謝謝委員的勉勵事實上這一次的事件讓我們痛定思痛那這兩天我跟總經理也不斷的在主持我們內部的檢討會把所有可能要改進的地方必須要逐一的挑出來那一個重點的結論就是我們要把過去的做法打掉重練"},{"start":7001.67,"end":7028.837,"text":"包括標準作業程序因為現在的旅客運量的增加的這個狀況還有我們現在機場正在進行第三航廈等等這些工程建設的過程我們必須要更謹慎那以後有稅修工程我們會有一個標準的SOP之外會以專案的方式成立應變小組從頭到尾從開始做計畫之前就開始成立所以這個案子讓我們會有一個新的一個出發我們希望以後不再發生這樣的一個情況謝謝"},{"start":7030.918,"end":7055.359,"text":"謝謝楊董事長接下來我來請教一下有關道路安全的問題楊董事長先請回我想道路安全關係著我們所有國人的生命安全非常重要的一個問題可是最近我發現說我們交通部的相關單位在進行道路改善安全的工程之後沒有更安全反而更危險"},{"start":7056.64,"end":7082.739,"text":"因為以我的選區就是最近在過年前到現在就是在台一線有這個路口改善的一個部分結果就是針對這個在田尾民生路口這個路口改善之後到現在就發生了至少5件的這個自小客車或者是大貨車去撞中央安全島的這個車禍事故所以針對這部分部長你怎麼看"},{"start":7084.439,"end":7112.828,"text":"我想在很多道路工程的確在我們現在有一個是省道一個是地方道路地方道路我在應該上個禮拜已經請我們的一個鋰鋼參事組成一個專案小組對於省道的這個交通工程的部分包括人形設施那過去省道人形設施做很少因為過去都是比較郊外可是現在或者省道的旁邊有很多發展的地區包括人形也要使用"},{"start":7113.408,"end":7129.389,"text":"所以我已經請一個專案來看全國的包括專家學者協助公路局來做這個檢討我想說這個部分本身的警示的設備不足容易撞到我想這部分他們在交通工程必須做改善"},{"start":7130.789,"end":7155.589,"text":"我目前就是秀的這個路口其實只是其中一個路口其實在這個台線在往北的下一個路口同樣有類似的狀況就是說我們在要改善了這個左轉車道的時候我們就把這個左轉的燈號先取消了可是我們的內縮的工程卻還沒有做所以我"},{"start":7156.89,"end":7179.152,"text":"針對這一點我是要提醒我們交通部就是說我們在進行相關的道路改善工程的時候我們應該要一次到位不能說只先做一半先做半套結果這樣子剩下那一半那你在這個過程當中你就導致了很多的這個意外事故的一個發生我覺得這個責任我到底要誰來擔"},{"start":7180.662,"end":7180.943,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7197.123,"end":7224.635,"text":"交通工程部門會有一些這個建議然後我請他們這個局長也知道他們要繼續來處理是還是跟委員報告一下就是說相關的因為道路的這個像幾個路口其實大概就是上下游的車道他們有對齊然後有些要增加左轉的專用道可是對齊就是比如說增加了以後就是說那個車道前進的時候就是說他可能要還要再多畫一些行車導引線或警示的"},{"start":7225.175,"end":7251.832,"text":"讓大家不要不會說往前走就跟那個分隔島比較近撞到那為現在其實在相關的改善的部分其實包括我們自己的工程單位還協同地方的交通跟警察一起做那未來我們要增加更多的比如說像交通工程祭司有些部分其實大家可能在會刊以後大家決定可是還是有一些疏漏的地方那我們希望把這一塊能夠再補強那也部長也指示我們有專案小組會全面來檢視"},{"start":7253.334,"end":7274.075,"text":"希望我們在做先問的道路改善工程的時候我們要速度要快而且要更周全那接下來最後一件我想關心一下就是在2月底的時候就是彰化縣深港建國路口跟美港路口這邊發生了一件真的是備受矚目而且令人非常遺憾的車禍事故"},{"start":7275.596,"end":7299.939,"text":"那造成就是三個姊弟就是被撞那目前兩個姊妹還在這個交互併訪所以有關這個重大一個車禍事故地方的鄉親他們都認為說我們有關相關的這個美港公路高價化應該要盡速來推動跟完成所以是不是可以請部長簡單說明一下這個目前的進度如何"},{"start":7300.655,"end":7328.351,"text":"工務現在應該是送到國安會再審查那我們希望說趕快確定另外就這個入口來看就是說雖然這一次的原因不見得是這個工程的課題但是我覺得他畫得不好就是說這種形狀這麼長第一個沒有屁股島第二個應該是在找最短退縮做找一個最短的地方來讓他通行我也要求這個工務局在一個月內把它做一個"},{"start":7331.213,"end":7351.25,"text":"短期內先做現場的改善嗎?是,跟委員報告已經就是說做會刊而且找了專家學者那會刊完畢了那第一階段的改善的部分就是說這個斜交的行川線我們會改成Z字型的這一個行川線那這個讓行人通行更安全也有庇護到那這個一個月內會完成那另外"},{"start":7351.65,"end":7351.67,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":7365.545,"end":7391.376,"text":"陳委員發言完畢在此先做宣告本日由委員提出臨時提案以本會王力在登記質詢的本會委員發言告一段落後處理那稍後我們會在徐富奎委員巡打完畢之後隨即處理臨時提案請各黨團助理通知提案的提案人好現在休息"},{"start":8105.004,"end":8109.109,"text":"現在繼續開會現在請何欣淳委員發言謝謝主席我們李坤澤召位那我們是不是請我們部長還有陶基的董事長總經理請王部長、請楊董事長"},{"start":8128.826,"end":8152.935,"text":"何委員長我想今天我們討論的還是就制度性的問題我想3月3日的這個逃機的機場跑道的稅休那造成很多民眾的不便國內外旅客都受到影響我剛剛看到很多其他的委員也在關心這一件事你看我這一頁我把你們那個"},{"start":8154.276,"end":8155.739,"text":"擊上可能會呈現的這個航空圖我覺得是真的是覺得會"},{"start":8161.358,"end":8173.805,"text":"難怪謝金河說我們的國際機場真的是以笑大方趕不上其他國際大城市的一個機場我們那一天你看天空盤旋好幾圈的滑行道變大型停機場我看那個圖上一台飛機在上面已經繞了幾圈1、2、3、4、5、6、6圈了我們這個滑行道那個跑道上在等著要飛的這個飛機真的叫做什麼塞車、塞機"},{"start":8190.275,"end":8204.244,"text":"天空也塞地面也塞可是我要跟部長講喔地面塞的不是只有塞飛機是機場裡面可能塞了滿滿的人還有那什麼接送的車輛衍生出來的交通問題"},{"start":8206.587,"end":8217.77,"text":"謝金河先生只是其中的一個乘客他說他等著要起飛他已經睡了一切以為已經到了泰國國際機場結果原來還在桃園國際機場這真的是很離譜而且這影響是什麼國際觀光客對台灣的印象"},{"start":8228.032,"end":8232.714,"text":"這個觀感讓人家覺得非常非常的納悶怎麼一個台灣號稱這麼先進的一個科技國家我們還常常說我們是有台積電半導體這個世界最強的在台灣結果呢我們的一個國際機場竟然是讓國內外的乘客坐在飛機上都不知道該怎麼辦在天空等著在地面等著通通都不知道到底發生了什麼問題"},{"start":8255.718,"end":8280.953,"text":"這件事情真的是很大的一件事情部長我相信因為聽說當天你知道了之後你一身震怒馬上就可以開始恢復稍微比較正常那我又想了一件事為什麼你沒有震怒之前是放得這樣子擺爛的樣子你的一句話震怒然後馬上就可以解決這個就是問題之所在來接下一張"},{"start":8282.898,"end":8293.371,"text":"我還記得我們去年交通委員會我還去考察考察過淘機我那時候還提醒其他的委員也提醒"},{"start":8294.454,"end":8313.989,"text":"我們趁著疫情期間航班少機場沒有開放的情況之下應該要好好準備因為去年4月的時候國外的機場已經解封臺灣雖然比較慢但是也已經準備待發大概預期已經快要"},{"start":8315.322,"end":8315.482,"text":"來下一張"},{"start":8338.959,"end":8346.636,"text":"我們也知道陶基你也早就告訴我們的一後復甦從去年到今年尤其今年運量越來越達高峰"},{"start":8347.796,"end":8368.808,"text":"你還提醒旅客要提早3個小時報到就表示說上看了百萬人次就知道機場捷運的運量真的已經是很涌射而且運量很高那在這些因素之下來這下一張我們淘機過往也有也有這個跑道維修"},{"start":8370.748,"end":8380.697,"text":"我要提醒你在疫情期間跑到維修的程度是怎麼樣那疫情中間我們又提醒你跑到要準備那現在呢跑到稅休發生了問題"},{"start":8387.694,"end":8412.731,"text":"我就覺得很奇怪以前都沒有那麼塞機嚴重那現在為什麼我們一再提醒而且我們也說在疫情期間有準備了怎麼會這一次塞機這麼嚴重我給部長一個機會你們檢討了怎樣就是這個原因非常的我是覺得最重要一點是整個淘氣這一次的警覺心跟重視度不夠"},{"start":8414.241,"end":8431.393,"text":"市長,所以這個就是問題嘛,什麼叫做警覺心跟重視度不夠因為我已經剛剛跟你講了嘛,所有的因素都是可預期的那以前疫情之前,跑到維修、睡休也是有過經驗,不是沒經驗而已啦"},{"start":8433.305,"end":8461.744,"text":"他那個直接過去過去在這個跑道的稅修時間比較短這次他的這維修應該有18處是吧18處16處16處那我們不是提醒過你嗎疫情期間就已經在準備了啊我覺得這都不是理由就是說在困難的地方也應該在預先的準備我想這部分這個董事長總經理他們也做過這個很多的這個討論我想說剛才也提到"},{"start":8462.344,"end":8488.801,"text":"部長你講到這個討論喔你們事實上在做這個跑道稅修之前都已經開過好幾次協調會都有做過好幾次討論那為什麼之前有討論現在發生問題你們那時候討論你知道我跟你們要的資料欸你們開了三次會議欸你們要的飛航管制單位、航空公司代表、航空公司業者機務聯誼會、機師、地勤等等"},{"start":8492.25,"end":8502.559,"text":"就是沒有沒有什麼機場最重要的人叫做消費者雖然你會跟我說消費者代表很難找"},{"start":8504.114,"end":8522.299,"text":"總是有旅行社吧總是有觀光團吧總是有一些可以有依據的吧總是可以從客戶端去思考他會受到的影響在哪裡嘛而且你們也沒有對外公告喔你對外公告是給機場內部的相關的"},{"start":8523.519,"end":8540.447,"text":"公告而已喔你對外並沒有讓國人知道說我這幾天跑到稅休我可能會影響到什麼什麼可能呢會delay到什麼什麼什麼那我們有什麼因應措施我們有什麼配套措施完全資質都沒有這符合邏輯嗎部長對"},{"start":8544.068,"end":8546.15,"text":"這個就重點營運兩個字營運的單位不能只有自己的立場營運不是就是對外要有"},{"start":8565.179,"end":8591.516,"text":"因為你營運嘛,你要營利嘛,所以你有客戶,你有消費者嘛而且是我們台灣的一個國際機場嘛,而且是起降跟落地最頻繁的一個國際機場啊對,這個就是我們檢討的地方啊,就是對營運者的這個討論然後在2月20日要發這個非常公告,但是消費者完全不知道完全不知道"},{"start":8592.332,"end":8615.299,"text":"那第二個我是覺得他的會員公告2月21號然後到3月3號就進場了時間太短了因為你會員公告一下去以後包括航空公司在各地的飛機還有班次的安排那個都會來不及所以我是覺得有一點而且你們這個事前從去年的9月就開始內部討論規劃"},{"start":8617.421,"end":8636.789,"text":"我現在這是你們給我的資料喔所以他應該早一點通知比如說在去年應該最晚年底以前就要開始把這個會案公告把它傳出來因為來回到商業你們早知道這一天這幾天我剛剛有其他的委員講有698個班次要起降那還有你們自己還有一個預報系統欸"},{"start":8642.091,"end":8659.701,"text":"那你們本來的雙跑道預計多少?平常是多少?單跑道預計可以多少?這些都是可以預期的因素喔?像這個就是一個最大問題,就是當天維修又允許690班起降,這個是問題那你們之前的協調會到底在開什麼?有什麼作用?"},{"start":8664.588,"end":8678.807,"text":"就是我覺得他們這個在整個這個部分比如說理論上不應該當天有698班應該在航空公司都做一些調配的進台夜少而且那提早、正早就像部長你講的"},{"start":8680.108,"end":8703.26,"text":"我們在淘機的航空公司不管國內國外有非常非常多如果說要提早協調的話要告訴航空公司讓他們能夠因應而且呢他會牽涉到的是航空公司還必須對他們的消費者權益做交代做因應做配套這是連環的一個"},{"start":8704.581,"end":8724.188,"text":"產生了效應那我們就必須要幫忙想時間點那要提到多少那如果如果我們沒有做到這一件事的時候那就是像部長你講的我們允許了698的班次在那一天起降我們港溫泉我們就要付這個嗎我們什麼配套都沒有做欸我們什麼配套都沒公告欸"},{"start":8734.486,"end":8761.897,"text":"那影響到旅客的權益怎麼辦部長?你們現在除了有檢討我們以後要調整SOP你們兩個問題嘛第一個你們要調整SOP未來的SOP怎麼調整?你們檢討出來現在怎麼樣?第二個那旅客權益在這一次受到受損那該怎麼辦?因為你們下半年度還有北跑道的稅休喔"},{"start":8764.433,"end":8780.092,"text":"第一個通告應該是我們現在是要求他3個月前就要通告了然後航空公司開始來調班機比如說有些就不要當天來起降"},{"start":8780.993,"end":8803.114,"text":"然後第二個有關於李克權先由航空公司因為他們還是這個福海航空公司收集意見以後我請陶基開一個會議看大家的這個影響的一個狀況再來處理所以我想就由他這航空先收集一些這些相關的消費者的聲音以後我們再來看後續怎麼處理"},{"start":8804.507,"end":8806.169,"text":"下半年的維修我們目前正在做整個系統性的檢討"},{"start":8821.809,"end":8848.363,"text":"那系統性的檢討改善措施還沒有出來之前我們下半年的維修計畫會等整個檢討完以後新的制度開始執行才來訂我們的這個下半年維修計畫這種事情不要再發生是好不好我們趕快調整趕快因應配套該公布的要趕快提前公布這個不是只有台灣的這個國際形象這也牽涉到國內外觀光客所有旅客的權益好"},{"start":8849.783,"end":8850.083,"text":"合委員發言完畢"},{"start":8876.739,"end":8902.58,"text":"現在請林俊憲委員發言好,謝謝主席本期邀請我們交通部王部長請王部長還有龔總龔總、陳局長"},{"start":8909.477,"end":8933.243,"text":"部長好部長你知不知道發生在我們台南市安南區有4家貨運公司車行那車行把他們的車子靠行的車子拿去貸款就是拿去冒貸200多部車子每一台車子都至少貸款了300多萬所以"},{"start":8934.73,"end":8938.133,"text":"因為我們要成立貨運公司的門檻非常高等於是我們政策逼這些車主不得不靠行"},{"start":8958.055,"end":8975.264,"text":"因為你設立一家貨運公司資本額大概要六千萬而且你還要有幾十部的車子你才有資格成立一個車行那現在這些車主去靠行車行把車子拿去冒貸"},{"start":8976.638,"end":9005.912,"text":"更慘的是這不是第一次啊你知道2018年就發生過部長你知道嗎2018年你們兩位都在交通部嘛2018年就發生所以當時啊我們幾位委員就有提案就是你車行現在車主車子在你車行裡面你拿去貸款啊那政府應該要有一定的節制啊也就是說你必須要讓車主知道啊"},{"start":9007.981,"end":9024.265,"text":"部長你看到當時的提案沒有當時就發生過這個案例那立委也提案請交通部公總這邊要有這種交易的預告登記的精神結果又發生再次發生這樣的一個慘劇部長你知不知道這種事情"},{"start":9028.285,"end":9046.715,"text":"234輛"},{"start":9048.996,"end":9052.138,"text":"對,這一次是80幾輛,貸款1億多嘛對,貸款車輛現在掌握住我講的2018年那個案例是234輛,帶走了5億多嘛"},{"start":9060.491,"end":9083.969,"text":"對,跟委員報告2018年那時候你先回答如果你制度不改這種事情會不會再發生制度要再檢討你要怎麼改上次跟委員報告上次的時候制度檢討是因為說2018年發生過為什麼這次會再發生因為你2018年以後你那個SOP你根本沒有落實沒有調整部長你看一下"},{"start":9085.63,"end":9098.259,"text":"2018er 2018年發生的案子 然後我們在交通委員會提案 那工種就把它改成了 因為車行你要去貸款 你必須做動產的擔保設定 所以就必須向監理機關來辦理 然後呢 工種的調整是監理所再把資料轉給當地的工會 那工會再聯絡車主 聯絡車上所有人"},{"start":9112.13,"end":9112.911,"text":"公會公會公會公會"},{"start":9130.931,"end":9131.872,"text":"我跟你說你這個不改會再發生是是是"},{"start":9157.21,"end":9165.118,"text":"因為擔保設定到建立站辦完建立站的責任多輕鬆啊轉資工會就好了就沒你的事情了"},{"start":9166.141,"end":9189.573,"text":"叫你說我們是應該要跟車主說嘛 對不對所以跟委員報告他又可不可以改為直接聯繫車主你要讓車主知道嘛要啊所以就是那你現在要不要改要就是整個的註記的部分也就是說靠行的這個資料的話我們自己要掌握我不要說完全就是今天有臨時提案我就是要求你要改這個你要讓車主知道"},{"start":9190.609,"end":9217.48,"text":"要不然這樣的慘劇一定會再發生你知道設立一家貨運公司的門檻有多高嗎?它必須要有2500萬的資本額啦要有20輛以上的全新貨車啦所以幾乎一般車主都是要靠航你政府的規定等於逼迫車主非靠航不可那麼其實你就有責任應該去保護這些車主而且當然"},{"start":9219.219,"end":9246.762,"text":"擔保設定為什麼到監理站來就是你政府要有一個一定的監理機制嘛沒必要你政府這樣跟你說要幹什麼他就直接找人就好了就是擔心會有發生這樣的弊啊你照常發生2018年也是現在又發生了你先給我查2018年到現在這5年來一共發生多少次貿貸事件我再查相關的資料不會中間隔5年就中間不知道發生多少件我跟你們要資料也拿不出來不敢給我"},{"start":9248.035,"end":9271.941,"text":"趕快去把這個程序給改掉不然以後不知道還有多少車子會受害那我們請那個陶菊公司陶菊公司這次跑道工程造成班機延誤的事件也是一樣因為2015年也發生過"},{"start":9275.167,"end":9300.269,"text":"2015年也是因為修跑道啊結果造成了空中大塞車董事長知不知道這個事情二零五年事情我不太曉得不過這一次的過程當中流量管車確實是在我們做團隊裡面那你們單位知道嘛那你要修跑道喔你第一個一定考量到就是班機起降會不會延誤嘛這是必要一個考量嘛而且啊你要去辦考察你知道嗎去年喔"},{"start":9304.076,"end":9330.601,"text":"去年11月吧逃避公司還特地跑到日本大阪關西國際機場去考察日本機場在跑到整建的時候那如何不影響把這個影響降到最低啦是不是這樣然後啊發現日本關西機場的做法非常好"},{"start":9332.076,"end":9346.845,"text":"他是不停航的施工他運用臨時性的跑道邊燈這你們寫的啦每天封閉跑道燒場的時間進行施工然後再開放使用那一周他不是每天進行非連續日數進行你考察日本回來還寫個報告吧你考察上你考察回來結果這次你看就造成了"},{"start":9363.93,"end":9382.523,"text":"受影響的旅客不要說怨聲載道其實更擔心的是飛航安全因為我們法定規定飛機的油料要多載兩個小時是不是這樣子就你的油料多容許大概你飛航時間再多兩個小時再多再放更多的那個航空油料一般航空公司不會"},{"start":9391.448,"end":9399.936,"text":"因為油很重又很貴,所以法令規定多2個小時的油量,它的油箱它就是給空2小時而已你像他這樣在空中下不來啊之前還有,聽說還有盤旋4個小時以前發生過啦,以前發生過那這一次最長的盤旋,盤旋多久"},{"start":9419.278,"end":9419.638,"text":"法定規定只有兩個小時"},{"start":9449.417,"end":9462.208,"text":"因為航空優料又重又貴啦那我請問啦那你們在施工以前跟航空公司應該知道你們要施工他半次啊也沒有減少啦有沒有減少照理講他有減少他沒有減少我查一下航空公司沒有減少啦為什麼現在機票很好賣啦探緊啦"},{"start":9474.606,"end":9486.432,"text":"兩邊都有責任但是法令授予民安局你可以要求他強制減班你知不知道因為我機場我在施工我根本沒有辦法容納一個小時60個班次旗將那你航空公司沒有一家減班你會不知道嗎航空公司為了賺錢這個也不對是不是這樣現在機票都用搶的機票那麼好賣就"},{"start":9503.649,"end":9523.675,"text":"每個人都不敢搬啊,買不來啊那結果下不來還好這次啊沒有發生安全性的問題啦重點是你們還出國去考察為了要施工啊特地去國外考察人家跑到施工怎麼做啊還跑去日本大阪貿易機場回來寫個報告去衝啦董事長你是工程專家啦是"},{"start":9533.55,"end":9561.136,"text":"剛才請你到接陶器公司就是因為看中你在工程方面的專才嘛所以這一次我們經過這一次的教訓以後我們開始已經在做全門的檢討那未來的這個操作的方式呢我們會從重新的更新包括把現在所談到的這些相關問題都納進來包括航管包括航空公司還有包括對旅客的事先的讓是訊息發布的部分我們都需要重新對你的修跑道你現在的公佈都是在你們自己官網都內部看得到旅客看不到"},{"start":9562.349,"end":9587.8,"text":"我覺得以後像你們這種重大施工可能會影響到非常半次時間的你應該要放在公開網站讓一般旅客也知道你現在公佈到網站我們一般人是看不到的所以這個要特別的發佈新聞甚至你應該要用公開的新聞對不對就是要發佈新聞嘛所以你們好好地檢討這種事情不要再發生了好不好好謝謝部長謝謝董事長"},{"start":9589.308,"end":9609.559,"text":"林俊憲委員發言完畢有關於林俊憲委員針對大貨車司機權益保障的臨時提案請交通部相關單位趕快跟林委員進行文字的修正接下來我們請魯明哲委員發言"},{"start":9625.902,"end":9626.462,"text":"王國材列席"},{"start":9643.836,"end":9669.259,"text":"這個很多委員在談淘機塞機這個問題因為難跑到稅休其實剛剛我聽了這個包括部長跟我們機場公司的回答我個人是完全的不滿意而且沒辦法接受我相信這是大部分關心這個世界國人的一個態度為什麼呢我們絕對可以接受一個你做一個突發的事情"},{"start":9670.26,"end":9699.207,"text":"獲得第一次新的一個業務你手忙腳亂你不知道無法預測這我相信人情義理大家講道理這樣的一個異常的管理新的事項我們手忙腳亂發生事情人民雖然不滿但是希望透過學習改進可是跑到稅休這件事情是新的業務嗎是你們 routine例行性的工作"},{"start":9700.765,"end":9718.488,"text":"而且離譜到真的是搞到國際性的新聞啊民國103年2月份也是難跑到稅休封閉一整年一年到隔年的大概1月才開放"},{"start":9723.388,"end":9739.992,"text":"一年期間每一天飛機讓流量怎麼樣去控制你沒有很棒的人才經歷過這麼大挑戰結果到現在現在都發生什麼事今天到最後我的感覺就是裝可愛抱歉我不會我不懂所以再給我一次機會憑什麼"},{"start":9742.214,"end":9758.363,"text":"為什麼你們對一個類型性過去淘汰公司是一個整體是一個法人是一個團隊你們團隊完成了這麼多艱難相關的任務如何當年怎麼排除現在都換新人了嗎所以楊董跟范董你們哪一個是交通專業的你們都不是兩個都是工程專業的"},{"start":9763.442,"end":9773.833,"text":"那部長你用這兩位工程專業的到淘氣公司沒有留一個交通專業甚至航管這個系統出來的人是當時的想法是什麼"},{"start":9774.81,"end":9799.625,"text":"沒有,他們的各個組裡面都有這個相關,副總也都是各方的專業那的確這一次是在於這個等於台灣機場包括三航廈三寶道的建設還包括機組設施的強韌所以也找到他們這方面的專長來,現階段是以這個為主OK,在這個事件上面我們已經看到了"},{"start":9801.527,"end":9828.601,"text":"有很多看得見的危機剛剛很多委員說過了包括人民的一個不滿包括很多人請了假根本沒有辦法順利的尤其轉機客影響真的非常非常大我覺得你們如果說閉口不去了解或去談可能的補償這個問題我覺得可能到最後你們也會驚慌失措再來我想問一下董事長"},{"start":9830.429,"end":9856.187,"text":"請問一下我們3月3日你們施工塞機這個一個情況發生到這個不管是輿論、事實上有這麼嚴重你事前有沒有預測到?是事前有估算到嗎?事前確實沒有估算到那總經理、范總你事前有預算到、估算到嗎?報告委員我想我們"},{"start":9857.15,"end":9883.351,"text":"在過去的經驗如果是跑道維修可能會產生有延誤的這個情形但是這一次的延誤的狀況的確是超過我們的預期好剛剛部長其實也提到你們有很多專業人才我也認為說你們經歷過這麼多次的一個機場的一個稅休在稅休的時候該做什麼樣的一個航管控制該跟國內的一個航空公司甚至國外的機場做什麼樣的一個聯絡"},{"start":9885.493,"end":9907.393,"text":"我怎麼發覺現在有點快要歸零了你知道嗎我覺得這個東西是讓我覺得看不見一個最大的危機你們董事長總經理重要的部門一直在換我姑且我不管你有沒有事才事所你到了這個位置你就要把這個事情把它做好這是你們編這麼多預算"},{"start":9914.279,"end":9926.007,"text":"人民聽到我聽到好害怕你知道嗎我們一群我們一群超專業的人在第一線幫我們守住了顧住了他們都預算到結果現在董事長總經理說其實"},{"start":9927.668,"end":9944.148,"text":"沒有算到當天你感覺跟人民一樣嚇了一跳你感覺跟坐在機上孤單兩個小時的旅客嚇了一跳你感覺就好像在航空公司盤旋那些人怎麼以這樣的一個意外呢所以我覺得這非常非常的不應該"},{"start":9946.052,"end":9969.503,"text":"我真的介意你剛講的應變小組專案小組你真的就是這個事情就是要專案小組現在擺明誰來籌組這個專案小組你要追蹤進度你不能用開會開完會大家解散航空公司解散要做不做進度做到哪裡不知道航管他的回應到底如何沒有一個長期性的一個連結你這個問題我跟你講"},{"start":9973.703,"end":9994.794,"text":"你們裏面的人有說啊說真的這麼多的數據那一天我施工會有多少航班要下來我們淘機只有北跑道可以用這是明明數學就可以算出來的一些問題居然我們就眼睜睜看了大船往冰山上面撞所以我覺得這很不應該了齁"},{"start":9996.533,"end":10019.543,"text":"那未來除了專案小組之外你們這個還有什麼具體的一個作為要去做說一下當然專案小組就是要管控整個從稅修計畫開始一直到稅修計畫結束流程當中的每一個環節那這個環節在過去的經驗我們所定的這些SOP我們重新檢視會把缺的部分缺少的部分補上來"},{"start":10020.203,"end":10043.71,"text":"第二點最重要的是對旅客跟航空公司的部分這一塊在過去的做法我們發布了飛航通告對象基本上是專業的這個對象那對民眾的這一塊或者是對於航管的預測的這一塊我們現在缺少這一塊的完整度那這個部分我們也在繼續宣導當中好董事長這個事實上將近10年前南跑道封閉一年"},{"start":10044.75,"end":10072.496,"text":"因為當時的溝通包括飛航的公告協調花了蠻久的時間才能夠慢慢舒緩你現在去怪航空公司怪列克都沒有道理嘛因為你們前大概十幾天才公告他們半年前就預備三個月大概票很多就訂滿了所以我覺得這個東西至少3、4個月以前你們就要去發布要有這樣的一個能力要這樣去做"},{"start":10073.998,"end":10075.543,"text":"接下來應該是公務總局吧"},{"start":10080.526,"end":10108.839,"text":"我想你們最近開了協調會同樣找了針對我們道教條例相關罰則、祭典甚至檢舉的一個方式有做了一些討論但我們看到後面的一個報導我們發覺好像是在平行線上面討論那邊是司長主持也沒有聚焦那你們現在這個案子是微調的案子是不是已經送到"},{"start":10110.327,"end":10129.508,"text":"行政院過了嗎?要送來立法院了嗎?禮拜四、院會就明天?明天院會那院會如果過了就會來立法院審議嗎?是不是?我想到立法院還是可以討論目前我們是用這個違罪這個不祭典的方式來"},{"start":10131.51,"end":10132.831,"text":"我現在看到市上很多的衝突點的確啦"},{"start":10151.226,"end":10176.229,"text":"我們在這個道交條例去年6月份上路之後後面發覺很多的可能工程面因為很多工程面是地方政府大家能不能配合的很多的包括我們取締它的標準剛開始一不一致這等等的包括宣導的時間夠不夠但是現在法令上路了嘛到現在這個反應怎麼樣去抓到一個平衡點"},{"start":10177.27,"end":10207.03,"text":"國外現在很多都在講完整街道一個理念就是這條道路他應該思考到所有要使用者我覺得這是一個非常好而且非常理想的境界我覺得這個當然目前在台灣適合已經落實在很多的新的區段徵收區塊他確實這樣去做那我們在這樣的一個完美理念現在遇到最大的衝突就是很多的馬路根本連人行道都沒有了"},{"start":10208.411,"end":10208.431,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":10226.005,"end":10240.718,"text":"你接到很多一個陳情啦當然行人很多連行人道都沒有走很多的騎樓也被擋住他們我們包括我們我們如果沒有開車都變行人啦但是我也發覺我們沒有開車有可能也去上班"},{"start":10241.826,"end":10262.502,"text":"我們沒有開車有可能是回家過生活回家過生活要加體成員有人要去買菜有人要去7-11其實我們每一個人都可能在這個完整街道上扮演不同的角色但是我是覺得你現在要調整的方向現在溝通已經結束了嗎?"},{"start":10264.232,"end":10269.216,"text":"昨年11月有特別要求希望地方政府優先盤點3個月盤點最好是每100到150公尺有10%的"},{"start":10287.111,"end":10287.492,"text":"王國材列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":10303.266,"end":10331.562,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下目前各縣市地方政府尤其六都都在這個辦理那這個各縣市辦理的這個進度不一那我在這個2月份也有開過一次會議掌握進度那後面的話剛剛這個委員所提到在禮拜一跟陸選團體討論的時候這個部分大家有共識交通部會每兩個月然後邀請兩個縣市以六都為優先來邀請他們西部盤點這個每個地方政府辦理的一個這個進度"},{"start":10341.951,"end":10355.143,"text":"公共會建議的還有地方政府自己去盤點的一個部分的話我在2月份開會的時候基本上大概都有一定的一個進度在做一個處理我想細節部分我們等法案送過來的時候我們再做細部討論謝謝"},{"start":10359.651,"end":10384.512,"text":"盧委員發言完畢現在請尤浩委員發言麥克風麥克風謝謝一樣有請部長王部長嗨"},{"start":10390.111,"end":10391.094,"text":"謝謝,那一樣針對延續討機、塞機的問題"},{"start":10399.571,"end":10418.58,"text":"那部長還有陶基的不管董事總經理那今天延續大家還是針對陶基的稅修的部分還造成塞機的問題那本席同樣這個塞機的問題他不僅是管理處的問題他同時這個飛機在那邊塞機的時候"},{"start":10421.181,"end":10443.01,"text":"都有可能造成非常嚴重的甚至包括飛機如果相撞或者是包括重大的空難這個是一定有可能發生我們在立院一直都希望的包括大家交通都是很平順包括飛機的航空安全都是非常的能夠有保障"},{"start":10443.891,"end":10452.773,"text":"那這個稅修的這一次的事件那確實是有可能造成空難那我想請教部長您覺得有沒有這個可能"},{"start":10453.527,"end":10474.204,"text":"的確這一次比如說在通告時間太短然後航空公司可能來不及應變所以那天在修跑道剩一條跑道當天還有近700架的飛機在起降我想這個是在淘氣必須做一個檢討應該是把它分散到別的別天去"},{"start":10475.225,"end":10498.624,"text":"然後另外就是在整個這次另外就是乘客都不知道這件事也是很嚴重就是說乘客不知道有修跑道可能會有延誤這件事情也很嚴重我想說未來他們除了在相關的營運者包括地勤包括航空公司的通知以外旅客通知一定要到位要不然他沒有預期到說可能延誤"},{"start":10499.545,"end":10525.142,"text":"所以在這個反應上面就非常的影響很大所以我想說已經有非常多的細節必須來討論那他們下半年是要修北跑道我想這一次的經驗應該要他們在北跑道的時候完全不能發生這樣的狀況所以說部長我想問一下本來應該要在多久以前的時間要先進行公告"},{"start":10526.448,"end":10549.174,"text":"我們建議是應該是三個月 正常就是三個月前 但是公告的話是幾月幾號公告他們是2月21號公告 他是沒有說一定要三個月但是我們是覺得一定要有一個三個月讓他包括航班的調度等等的那其實本來就應該要在三個月前公告才是比較正確的 是"},{"start":10550.134,"end":10573.305,"text":"但是2月21日才公告那這樣子短短的兩個禮拜的期間那造成這樣子重大的一個失誤那非安的這種安全的確保啊那這種風險是不可以有任何的一個偏差所以說部長你也覺得這是有可能造成空難的沒有錯這一次我們也非常注意這個事了比如說在盤有沒有可能造成空難"},{"start":10574.178,"end":10577.762,"text":"有沒有任何一點可能性?我們不會讓它發生啦,但是的確有這樣的一個可能性嘛對不對"},{"start":10595.987,"end":10621.976,"text":"在航管這一塊為什麼要做流量管理主要就是要確保整個載空機的安全流量管理的話是在一個正常的情況之下才會進行這個流量管理那這個是突發的狀況的話流量管理的話大家我相信交通部一定都說沒有問題啦那航管一定都說沒有問題啦但是發生問題的時候通通都是在認為沒有問題的情況之下發生的那我想問一下這一次的這個整個過程中"},{"start":10623.897,"end":10629.638,"text":"那我想請教部長那一個單位應該去負最大的一個責任誰是最可以獲首"},{"start":10630.994,"end":10652.702,"text":"我想在整個因為他們現在直接說哪個單位好了我覺得當然是這個桃園機場他們在這一次的稅休包括桃園機場那我直接問部長那因為這個是包含的在後面稅休的處理以及包含在未來相關的一個這種維護上大家要做一個實施警惕實施檢討"},{"start":10654.503,"end":10670.475,"text":"那我想問一下在這一次的經驗上必須要有一個負責的成績或是救責的成績我想請問目前在部長這一個事件上哪一個成績會負到什麼樣的責任不管是行政責任或是政治責任請部長回答"},{"start":10671.597,"end":10685.522,"text":"我想因為這次他們在第二天就完全掌握了在第二天原來三天的跑道的變成兩天因為這個不是第二天因為這本來就不應該發生的部長你也認為不應該發生嗎?"},{"start":10687.022,"end":10706.196,"text":"對我覺得那這一次的懲處的成績我相信不管是機場的內部的人員在看交通部在看社會各界也在看想請教部長這一次的預計負責的成績要懲處的成績到哪裡沒有現在就是因為我們的行政司就是會簽上來就是但是他們現在的確內部在討論在這個構成中"},{"start":10709.258,"end":10731.209,"text":"比如說他們開了這麼多的會議在航空公司不知道到底我們淘機的後續的追蹤比如說這個航班到底有沒有去做一些改變等等的我想等他們檢討出來以後我們再來所以說這次目前沒有有任何人對這次的負責沒有就是他們檢討報告我們行政司會送上來我們再來討論應該"},{"start":10739.841,"end":10749.485,"text":"一個月內就是我們會做一個處理所以說都不用懲處一個月做處理就是裡面可能會有懲處他懲處到哪個層級預計預計會懲處到哪個層級等他們送上來吧所以說現在沒有辦法對社會各界回應"},{"start":10762.902,"end":10789.469,"text":"沒有那個就是一個月內沒關係一個月內之後我們看後面的結果好不好在今天也不用特別去但因為最主要是需要有這樣子的回應是社會各界的回應因為不僅是航空公司裡面大家也在看社會各界也在看因為宣案是不能夠有任何的失誤那這次來講我相信不可以再犯因為大家時時會盯著此案那同樣的我想要再延續著"},{"start":10790.529,"end":10812.396,"text":"就是之前跟部長就教的有關於南投縣那這個機場的終結、延伸、何時何定在這個局限的部分那今天也有提一個臨時的提案那包括南投縣政府在南投縣軌道系統整體路網評估計畫那也有提出那機場公司請回"},{"start":10813.276,"end":10839.763,"text":"再來就是在2014年的時候蔡英文總統曾經在南投的這個場合直接公開宣誓要將終結延伸到南投那在賴清德未來要就任的總統也在南投的時候提出了要讓終結延伸到南投那我想請教一下部長終結何時可以延伸到南投你有沒有把握"},{"start":10840.243,"end":10854.355,"text":"現在跟郵委報告,我們當然是支持台中的軌道延伸不管是南線延伸還是局線延伸現在我們也請地方政府提出因為現在的決定是這樣"},{"start":10855.356,"end":10882.379,"text":"他要提出可行性報告我們來審查中國規劃通過以後我們就補助我們交通部主要是在這個經費補助的部分那現在就是臺中市政府跟南南投縣政府討論一下包括整個路線的這個規劃然後提出報告那相關的這個可行性的這個報告我們可以做一些經費的支持那我想要這部分地方提出來我們會按照我們行政程序來來審查"},{"start":10883.86,"end":10907.318,"text":"因為在賴清德來南投的時候他又直接提到了一個吸引、兩大申請、八大計畫那我想請教一下在他所提的這個政見要延伸到南投的部分部長你怎麼解讀以及說他已經公開承諾了賴清德已經公開承諾了而且這個部分從2014年蔡英文其實騙南投人騙到現在"},{"start":10907.978,"end":10924.481,"text":"那賴清德他來南投再次承諾我想請教一下部長在你任期內有沒有可能能夠確實來承諾讓這個終結延伸到南投局限的部分這個表示兩位總統的態度很清楚嗎"},{"start":10924.881,"end":10925.822,"text":"邀請交通部部長王國材列席報告"},{"start":10943.499,"end":10959.074,"text":"我想知道剛才我相信林佩祥也在想有生之年希望能夠看到那我在想說終結到南投有生之年大家也都能夠看到那部長你有沒有辦法承諾在你任期上能夠具體的能夠回復南投還有是不是終結到南投有具體進度"},{"start":10960.095,"end":10979.681,"text":"我的態度就是兩位總統的態度一樣我們支持就是說軌道不是只有都會區它應該是往外延伸就像這個臺北延伸到這個新北一樣甚至到桃園我們的態度支持那地方提可行性我們來協助"},{"start":10981.604,"end":10999.315,"text":"那所以說有沒有辦法具體的承諾在你的這個任內的期間能夠加速的配合南投縣政府因為南投縣政府有提其實那時候你們也知道嘛不是那那個提出來然後我們也可以做協助越快越好啦好啦儘快因為等一下會提案解決齁好好謝謝與委員發言完畢現在請萬美玲委員發言"},{"start":11013.84,"end":11016.342,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請部長請部長部長好 我們桃園的鐵路地下化從高架改成地下化到現在多久的時間 您知道嗎"},{"start":11032.105,"end":11037.048,"text":"應該在鄭市長上任市長的時候做一個改變"},{"start":11062.165,"end":11074.93,"text":"現在主標的4個標應該這個月都會發表出去就是這個主標的部分然後全部也就是去年的確是發表了"},{"start":11077.031,"end":11092.539,"text":"到目前為止我們看到土建標有17個標可是以目前來說是有7個已經絕標了那基建標的部分14個標裡面有5個是已經絕標了那所以其實本市很關心的就是我們的中路站然後還有我們的這個桃園站"},{"start":11094.06,"end":11110.636,"text":"聽說現在也進入到要這個決標的一個階段了算是總算有一點進度了不過呢這期間因為我想鐵路是連貫的嘛我們的鳳鳴站、內力站以及桃園醫院站這幾個站到目前為止看起來都還沒有進到發包的這個部分來"},{"start":11111.317,"end":11130.788,"text":"所以我想不管土建標、基建標其實都有待進度的加強另外我想請教的就是交通部自己原來的規劃上有說我們整個桃園內壢到中壢這一段你預計在118年4月可以通車全線119年7月就可以通車了那我跟部長來報告一下"},{"start":11132.869,"end":11153.765,"text":"這個桃園鐵路地下化通車不論是剛剛說的桃園內立跟中立站或者是全線我們已經聽過了N個版本了那常常都是給我們欺騙再欺騙真的是騙很大從我們看到過去鄭文燦市長的時候的臉書他自己寫的現在都還在他也沒把它撤掉說是114年要通車一回又說115、116現在來到您這裡118現在說119這個數字聽了我們桃園市民都麻痹了"},{"start":11162.211,"end":11172.482,"text":"所以我認為真的是需要在這個進度上面再加強一下那部長能不能就現在我們延宕的原因跟我們現在各標案這個進度的狀況簡單的簡述一下現在有兩個變數一個就是你講的桃園CJ12標因為文資的課題"},{"start":11182.432,"end":11198.613,"text":"那一天我們剛好在台灣有一個這個中線的這個現場的說明我有特別請那個台灣市政府這邊一定要協助因為他們在文化局部一定要協助要不然這個可能會拖很長第二個是憑證的延伸"},{"start":11199.494,"end":11220.479,"text":"因為現在憑證延伸後來是希望納到這個計畫那憑證離這個很遠你知道嗎他從可行性開始做所以這兩個加我們出戶如果這兩個沒有妥善的這個處理還會再延長1819都可能做不到所以我們現在就是部長所以您現在是公開的說1819又做不到了"},{"start":11220.819,"end":11234.475,"text":"因為這兩個是這個加入 如果憑證不納到這一個的話我們就拼一下 憑證納進去 我覺得我們分段來看嘛 那憑證這個這個變數啊我們先暫時放在旁邊 前面這一段你可以如期118年通車嗎"},{"start":11237.677,"end":11257.723,"text":"我們現在就是還是前面還是11812但是鐵路不會這樣就是你做當然我理解但是你進度工程要趕上嘛對不對不能每一段每一段一直延宕你每一段一直延宕你最後總工程期就會像過去這9年來桃園市民被騙很大那你知道那個期待非常的高每一次每一次落空說真的"},{"start":11258.803,"end":11279.418,"text":"本席今天在這裡垂尋118跟119我覺得桃園市民即便聽到也會覺得說哎呀又喊了一個數字出來但我覺得我們不能這樣我們要對我們所說的這個承諾要把這個責任負起來所以部長我想請教一下那現在我們桃園站跟中路站的進度情況是怎麼樣我請局長幫你說明"},{"start":11280.845,"end":11281.285,"text":"接下來就另外一個問題了"},{"start":11297.133,"end":11325.2,"text":"部長我想在總質詢的時候我也跟您這個就教過那也就是說我們不管看到這個臨時軌的工程或者是我們主體工程的發包很多都是第一次在招票的預算到絕標的預算上面那個相差的金額真的非常的大那現在有很多一直在流標當中那個相差的金額就到了1億、3億這麼大的一個金額那總體在臨時軌的這個部分我們看到這個額度高達9億的差別這還不算多我們看到主體工程"},{"start":11325.74,"end":11348.493,"text":"竟然高達131億的這個工程的一個決標數的差額那當初我們有說這整個工程中央負75%我們地方負25%可是現在本席竟然聽到交通部自己跟我們的回答說我們本來鐵道局說我們1048億鐵路地下化總預算現在已經完全用完了甚至於已經超支了是這樣嗎?"},{"start":11349.735,"end":11350.395,"text":"所以1048已經花完了,而且還超支了是嗎?"},{"start":11367.702,"end":11389.796,"text":"目前是還沒有超支,因為超支在預算程序上在我們目前說不夠了那因為過去三年的整個營建物資我理解喔,不過我想部長我的天啊我們還有這麼多的工資還沒有發包出去但預算現在已經花完了喔那我覺得在這裡有一個非常鄭重的要跟這個部長提喔第一個,那這個預算要趕快來補出來喔"},{"start":11391.417,"end":11420.183,"text":"第二個呢我們當初所說的75%中央付、25%地方付但現在尤其工程一直延宕那這個總預算增加了那我們的那個25%的部分我想是不是交通部這個部分要能夠幫這個桃園市政府來解套不能夠把這樣的一個成本加注在桃園市政府的這個身上所以呢早一個時間我們跟部長這邊來討論這個75%跟25%然後追加的工程的部分我們希望中央能夠全部買單這樣可以做得到嗎"},{"start":11421.983,"end":11439.909,"text":"好,萬委員發言完畢接下來在邱委員還沒有發言之前我們先再做個說明等一下臨時提案是在徐富奎委員發言完畢之後處理臨時提案"},{"start":11441.089,"end":11460.897,"text":"我們今天早上的開會到許智傑委員發言完畢之後雖然中午原則上不休息但是還是要給大家基本吃飯的時間所以許智傑委員發言完畢之後我們會給大家吃飯的時間到一點半現在請邱若驊委員發言"},{"start":11470.905,"end":11494.035,"text":"主席好 有請部長請王部長部長 桃園機場南跑道年度稅休 京陽瀨北跑道起降多架班機 起降延路改時嚴重衝擊到機場的秩序 桃機跟交通部也坦言衝擊超乎預期"},{"start":11496.551,"end":11525.066,"text":"請問部長這次管理失能對被延誤的旅客之賠償金額估計是多少?航空公司要求索賠估計多少?這些都是國庫的損失依據什麼時候可以統計出來?現在還沒有談到這個現在是先調查因為航空公司跟顧客先來那他們整個處理完以後我會請這個陶器公司找航空公司來算一下那才決定後續怎麼處理這個都還沒有算出來"},{"start":11525.566,"end":11538.971,"text":"國際旅客還有外籍航空公司怎麼看待這次的事件那這次機場管理失能傳到國外對台灣是負面的那想請問部長這次的事件旅客還有航空公司是怎麼看待的"},{"start":11552.523,"end":11576.771,"text":"我想這一次我覺得這個在機場公司這邊的緊急性不夠就是說在這個已經知道那一天要有這麼多航班那應該是航班的分散還有相關的這個航空公司是不是已經改班次等等的要先確定我想說這一次也讓陶基也做一個徹底的一個檢討"},{"start":11578.391,"end":11580.274,"text":"這次是提前54小時前預告嗎?"},{"start":11593.878,"end":11608.443,"text":"請問部長,提前預告的時間。他是2月21號告訴各個航空公司,那我們覺得這個時間也不夠,因為如果旅客已經訂了飛機,航空公司要變也很難。"},{"start":11609.468,"end":11626.026,"text":"所以我覺得這個通告應該會更早啦我們現在現在是給他的這個整個檢討情形是說三個月前就應該公告不只不只營業者還要包括這個消費者就是說旅客也要公告讓他心裡有所準備OK好"},{"start":11626.627,"end":11642.999,"text":"那這次機場難跑到稅收造成航班大亂．交通部也坦承整修規模較往年比較大．而且沒有注意到交通量那這也凸顯出機場管理的問題去年在英國全球機場評比桃園機場從67名"},{"start":11646.323,"end":11647.424,"text":"因果有一個叫做那個"},{"start":11677.723,"end":11691.568,"text":"ビジネス・ファイレンションビジネス・ファイレンション的這個媒體他的評比在2023台灣機場是全世界第9名那Square Tracks他是從旅客的這個感受來看這個機場那我們可以看到就是說這個"},{"start":11692.908,"end":11721.789,"text":"在2023他們的調查應該是在2023的前面這段時間就是疫情期間那疫情期間跟委員報告我們機場很多的免稅店是沒有開的還有很多的這個包括這個管制讓這個機場的這個因為防疫來做很多管制所以我事實上我在應該幾個月前有到機場跟他們做這方面SkyTrack為什麼降這麼多的一個討論跟他們討論過他們也大概有幾個方向在處理"},{"start":11722.749,"end":11738.906,"text":"當然也不能說我們好像台灣機場做得很好我覺得全世界的機場都在競爭包括像這一次的3月3日的這個問題我想說機場要改善的地方還非常的多我想說最重要的是機場應該這一次的學習"},{"start":11742.73,"end":11743.33,"text":"請問部長目前的興建情況如何?"},{"start":11764.685,"end":11788.197,"text":"三行下現在還是在115年然後我們會陸續從北廊廳、主行下跟南廊廳意思是說雖然115年做完但是我們北廊廳會先開放登機所以應該是在一年左右一年左右開始這個第三行下的北廊廳已經可以登機了這樣全體完工三行下是在115年後完工115"},{"start":11796.349,"end":11815.458,"text":"對民進黨政府施政相挺的財經專家謝金河也感嘆臺灣的經濟力大有進展不過機場建設卻落後他也向新任總統蔡金河喊話這也許是未來施政很好的著力點那過去8年是民進黨執政對謝金河先生的發言有何感想"},{"start":11816.601,"end":11838.562,"text":"我想,像過去台灣經常在疫情前表現是算還不錯,它事實上你可以看到108它在全世界很多的評比都是前面的那當然透過這個在疫情這段時間他們事實上像一些跑道還有一些這個航廈的推動都是一直一直往前我想說這一次我覺得是一個"},{"start":11840.544,"end":11864.878,"text":"沒有很有警覺心對一個這樣的一個一條跑道的艇沒有一個警覺心我想也不是說我個人是覺得說這一天這個是要檢討但是並沒有辦法說用這一天來否定整個台灣機場他們的努力但是我覺得3月3日這一天的檢討是我們必須痛定思痛來檢討的"},{"start":11866.035,"end":11888.072,"text":"好那機場跟觀光有非常大的關係那臺灣的觀光好像還在原地踏步被盤點出幾個致命傷像是景點特色不足還有重視短期補助或是長遠的規劃嚴重的缺工還有旅遊費用高那現在的困境不只影響就是海外來臺旅遊的意願那許多國人呢也認為出國比國旅好那根據交通部觀光署調查那112年的統計總共有1170"},{"start":11891.354,"end":11891.794,"text":"數字差這麼多"},{"start":11906.722,"end":11922.912,"text":"對 我們開放國境的時間點也比較晚 那我們其實應該分兩個部分來談 一個是外國客來台灣 另外一個就是我們國民旅遊 那國旅的部分我們在去年其實已經超越了我們"},{"start":11924.252,"end":11940.948,"text":"民國108年也就是2019的標準今年我們的目標就是希望能夠挑戰回復到疫情之前全球的分析也是這樣有保守值跟樂觀值也就是2024年是樂觀值保守值是到2025年回到2019年的標準"},{"start":11946.613,"end":11960.126,"text":"那麼這個部分我們當然是也希望能夠開闢更多的亮點是,署長那回到標準大概人數會是多少目標數是多少我們目前還是以我們2019年是1187萬人次那我們還是以這個標準來努力"},{"start":11967.373,"end":11989.565,"text":"因為疫情之前台灣每年觀光人數都是超過千萬人的嘛那在日本還有亞洲國家人數都已經回到疫情前的標準了還有人數那交通部觀光署去年訂的目標其實當時林民進黨立委也認為不高要達到目標應該不是很困難的事那可以提出具體的方案嗎就是在針對我們發展台灣觀光這一塊"},{"start":11990.746,"end":12010.424,"text":"是,我們大概應該是還是要跟國際的發展趨勢一致了所以我們現在對台灣的強項裡面有幾個就是生態旅遊跟部落旅遊還有就是我們希望能夠倡議這個所謂的MICE就是順道旅遊也就是會議之後的休假旅遊的部分"},{"start":12012.786,"end":12019.571,"text":"因為去年的時候部長有說過去年12月8號的時候不管有說過不管今年陸客會不會來都希望可以達成1200萬人次那這個是怎麼算出來的?"},{"start":12023.61,"end":12046.974,"text":"這是我們的目標就是恢復到以前的水準因為去年本來這個600萬也有100萬是入客啦後來我們就用其他地方來補回來這樣子是好那馬上第一季觀光統計出來之後希望可以提供書面資料是再麻煩部長那這邊我們也看到從桃園市政文產前市長到現任的張善政市長都在積極我們全國第14個國家級的風景區"},{"start":12050.515,"end":12069.443,"text":"北橫國家風景特定區請問後來行政院協調的如何了這個部分大概有已經初步的一個想法是有了但是因為主要有兩個部分一個就是這個我們叫做有一些原住民的部落他們還是要經過部落會議的討論"},{"start":12071.564,"end":12092.493,"text":"第二個是我們相關單位的橫向的協調比如說有一些是林業署的這個拉拉山的這個遊樂區還有一個範圍包括石門水庫是不是應該納在裡面還有一些涉到國防部的這些慈湖的這些部分好謝謝署長"},{"start":12095.423,"end":12118.541,"text":"邱委員發言完畢現在請蔡其昌委員發言謝謝主席請王部長請楊董事長蔡委員好部長好董事長好"},{"start":12125.677,"end":12153.081,"text":"一個早上大概朝野的委員都在桃園機場這一次稅休導致塞機的這個事件上面那事實上大家談的我也不再重複啦但我覺得三件事把它做好第一個道歉並研議往後針對這個事件包括可能嚴重受損的旅客是不是有相關的一些補償的機制這個第一個第二個"},{"start":12154.909,"end":12176.827,"text":"非常重要的關鍵稅修不是新聞就稅修機場固定稅修都一定要做那這一次稅修會讓董事長跟總經理沒有預估到會導致今天這個情形那我認為這個稅修的SOP一定有問題不然怎麼可能會"},{"start":12178.121,"end":12195.374,"text":"以前怎麼弄發展到今天的稅修會變成塞機然後旅客抱怨然後變成了一個大家覺得不可思議的情形所以這個稅修的SOP的機制的檢討立刻進行可以嗎這個要多久的時間可以做好"},{"start":12196.568,"end":12215.03,"text":"報告委員目前已經在進行檢討當中公司內部的部分在這個禮拜會檢討出來公司外部的單位在下個禮拜會檢討這個我想不會需要太多的時間我想兩週到一個月之內一定要把新的稅修到未來的這個SOP到底要怎麼來做"},{"start":12216.051,"end":12239.187,"text":"到底你要多久之前公告因為稅修我們現在就已經知道大概南跑道好了之後接下來北跑道那接下來下一次要稅修的點在哪裡他大概什麼時間多少錢因為你的預算一定事先編列了嘛所以這個其實不要說3個月我認為可以早盡量半年嘛因為現在啊國際都在塞啦"},{"start":12240.365,"end":12268.283,"text":"機票很難訂啦所以像我的經驗來講我都要提早半年訂嘛所以你現在必須先讓我知道半年後我要去的機場我要出發的航班會不會因為你又有稅休如果今天是突發的那沒有辦法我想國人大家可以接受但是稅休這樣的事情犯了這個錯誤這個應該要真的檢討特別是我想楊董事長我覺得我從你從在政府部門的公務機關一路"},{"start":12270.104,"end":12298.877,"text":"從基層一路上來過去你在水利署或者經濟部的表現其實我都很肯定不管從馬總統一路到蔡總統我對你的表現我都是很肯定所以你是有能力的人有能力的人面對這個事情那就應該把更清楚的透明的讓大家知道原因在哪裡怎麼做要怎麼改觀不要再讓這個事情發生這個就是我想你去淘汰公司這個就是你所要的工作"},{"start":12299.597,"end":12316.495,"text":"那最後一個就是我剛剛講你SOP出來之後你才有消費者的預警機制的建立啦其實預警機制的建立大家都在講要公告公告我不反對但其實TA目標客戶很清楚目標客戶都在航空公司跟旅行社啦"},{"start":12317.116,"end":12341.294,"text":"也就是你的預警機制裡面怎麼直接把可能要搭飛機的人你的關鍵就在於航空公司跟旅行社之間怎麼快速讓他知道說你買這一班飛機有可能會遇到稅休甚至我告訴你買這班飛機就是遇到稅休所以你有可能你就會被延誤兩小時、三小時所以航空公司從賣票開始該不該賣他就先提醒消費者"},{"start":12342.998,"end":12366.239,"text":"不該賣的票就不該賣反正這一班已經會延遲超過12個小時那這個班還要賣嗎那第二個如果這個是延遲一兩個小時你有預警機制讓消費者事先知道我相信消費者他會選擇這個航班他就已經知道會有這個遇到稅休的這個情形所以他的那個感受就是他的不爽的程度自然下降因為我已經告訴你"},{"start":12366.88,"end":12368.841,"text":"第二件事情大家都在談這個機場的排行"},{"start":12388.686,"end":12416.607,"text":"雖然我已經8年的時間沒有在交通委員會但事實上這個是common sense也就是每一個調查單位他對每一個機場的排名其實他都有他的量化的指標啦那有些指標我們可以達成那有些排行看起來數字不好嘛比如說這個13名調到82名這個看起來數字就非常糟糕"},{"start":12417.863,"end":12436.253,"text":"我們也知道這個排名其實主要都還是在消費者他的滿意度的調查當然我也可以接受疫情哪有消費者會對桃園機場滿意的我想大家都很不滿意包括我在內但是這個就是疫情所以我們應該針對像這種讓台灣很難看的這種數字"},{"start":12441.195,"end":12463.809,"text":"我認為淘汰公司應該要把它在今年因為今年現在才3月到12月我們還有很大的努力空間我們都知道它的重點是什麼所以把它的針對它的重點改善雖然這個我常常在講這個任何的評鑑都是一樣的立法院也是一樣立法院也有這個民間NGO團體在評鑑每一個立委"},{"start":12465.646,"end":12480.232,"text":"每一個評鑑他的公告都會公告他的準則嘛比如說有一些人特別重視量化你來質詢幾次你提案通過幾個但是質詢的內容有些不在乎啊就是你上台鬼扯他也沒有關係"},{"start":12481.505,"end":12507.012,"text":"那這個就是量化嘛所以一樣的道理機場的排名也是一樣但是不管怎麼樣他有排名他就一定有指標而這個指標不管怎麼樣總是我們能做好所有的指標都是高分這個對台灣的形象很好嘛對機場公司的績效也好嘛所以不管哪一個排名啦有些排名剛剛部長講那個叫做什麼Business Financial"},{"start":12507.532,"end":12509.433,"text":"總統現在是82明年再回到60幾有沒有辦法?"},{"start":12528.739,"end":12546.255,"text":"我們努力的目標不只有這樣子事實上我去年到公司來以後部長就有特別交代這個是機場公司今年的工作重點我們是朝進到前50名第一階段這個是一個很有價值的說法"},{"start":12546.815,"end":12548.076,"text":"這是一個你要努力的方向"},{"start":12564.85,"end":12586.294,"text":"另外部長我也想藉這個機會談機場這個臺中機場我想過去這8年當中雖然我沒有來交通委員會質詢但你為了臺中機場我們也多次開會甚至民防局也常常幾乎每一年都要去我辦公室好幾次所以我想藉這個機會也跟部長討論一下這個臺中機場在這個"},{"start":12594.283,"end":12603.927,"text":"2040年的整體規劃裡面我們有去提到第一個就是機場從目前的一年369萬人次到2040年目標是500萬人次"},{"start":12608.154,"end":12632.459,"text":"那500萬人次基本上他就要一樣就是要先前做好準備所以2040年的2040年的整體規劃其實也是為了這個目標要去做準備那這個其實我都支持我們過去也都針對40年目標甚至接下來45年的目標我們都有參與討論但是有幾點我還是要提醒第一個長期來看長期來看"},{"start":12634.96,"end":12647.159,"text":"未來因應500萬人次以上甚至目標可能我的期待就是1000萬人次那T3不是桃園的T3是台中的T3"},{"start":12650.84,"end":12670.011,"text":"這個這個這個要提早去進行規劃那但是事實上我們都知道吼那個圖這邊有吼部長你也都很清楚我過去啊十幾年來我就一直為這個這個機場的這個規劃我其實意見都一直很大吼因為我們老是把機場terminal1 terminal2縮在這個小小的這個角落"},{"start":12670.791,"end":12691.49,"text":"因為這個圖啊後面這個楊溪區這個更大因為這個圖沒有沒有顯示楊溪區但是呢我們老是在這一小塊裡面打轉那這一小塊裡面打轉我們知道他旁邊就就漢祥所以我們就會一個非常有趣的就是臺中機場就會呈現一個非常小塊的這個terminal1 terminal2然後接下來呢這個是這裡的"},{"start":12693.251,"end":12712.679,"text":"大概30倍或50倍啦就是吼這個可能要畫到牆壁外面才可以畫的進來那個叫楊溪區所以我過去就一直提議說可不可以往裡面移啦但客觀因素主觀因素很多包括空軍啊意見一大堆當時我叫漢強可不可以讓一些土地他也不肯"},{"start":12713.559,"end":12725.948,"text":"這些都是過去的限制好現在我們要做2040年的計劃已經做了2040年的計劃所以我會希望terminal3的位置千萬不要再跟1跟2去擠了啦"},{"start":12726.604,"end":12745.975,"text":"也就是說我們要將Terminal 3的位置再往西一點時間還很久啦2040年的計畫捏還十幾年啦所以應該要及早把這個計畫走出來啦當然不需要到我剛剛講的那四五十多大塊地但是"},{"start":12746.912,"end":12756.843,"text":"把Terminal 3往西移來以它做一個規劃這個應該可以好好的來思考未來台中機場從500萬300多變500多目標我希望達到1000萬人次"},{"start":12761.633,"end":12779.319,"text":"這個Terminal 3勢在必行你們也規劃了但是我覺得位置恐怕位置的配比上要重新來過那短期計畫裡面我想部長去年我也找你談過我們一起努力也拜訪了航空公司就是台中國際機場航班"},{"start":12785.9,"end":12802.55,"text":"總算至少啦因為看起來長榮跟長榮集團跟華航集團因為飛機的問題嘛沒有辦法短期增加但是至少我們爭取了新語我想3月底就要在台中來增加這個直飛現港直飛這個澳門"},{"start":12808.174,"end":12828.29,"text":"主席時間到了喔所以我們再繼續努力啦 把至少台中機場 譬如過去過去過去這個西校也很好飛沖繩飛琉球 然後中部人一直期待我們台中人很希望可以直飛日本那這些東西"},{"start":12830.051,"end":12856.391,"text":"因為這不是單要求交通部啦這個也要航空公司備有飛機、租有飛機然後他也願意配合所以我希望行政上交通部全力來促成然後積極的協調這個國航的幾個航空公司讓台中機場這個航線、航點、航班都能夠增加好不好?可以啦吼第一就是在過去談到包括新乙這個他的這個會在這個"},{"start":12858.012,"end":12860.673,"text":"主要是位置的調整啦,計畫我知道啦,位置的調整這個調整以後讓他"},{"start":12886.461,"end":12889.722,"text":"蔡委員發言完畢現在請徐副委員發言徐委員發言完畢之後我們處理臨時提案"},{"start":12915.369,"end":12915.93,"text":"王國材列席報告"},{"start":12938.164,"end":12965.554,"text":"過年期間這個國旅的這個定房率我想從這個媒體報導普遍來講都比以往偏低而且房價高的這個負面新聞非常非常的多那所以尤其墾丁這個首當其從定房率大概只有6成那針對這個現象我先請教部長對於這個整個恆春半島的觀光業的部分部長這邊有沒有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":12965.874,"end":12983.23,"text":"事實上這個更需要報告我等一下我再請那個署長補充事實上恆春半島的觀光是算臺灣裡面人家不管是國內跟國際都想要去的地方那的確在國境開放以後很多人會選擇出國我們現在出國大概是"},{"start":12985.232,"end":13007.421,"text":"出去比進來大概都一倍以上的確有這樣的狀況我想這邊第一個就是對於這些觀光景點包括這些禮數月的福島像我們也有這個一些這個景點的一些建設計畫我想這部分就是比如說過去跟屏東縣政府有很多合作在墾丁這邊的合作包括大盤貫等等的我們持續來加強"},{"start":13009.682,"end":13030.952,"text":"第2個就是說的確在一般民眾在選國旅或是國外他也是真的經過比較比如說包括皇價的課題還有包括光光的心理的部分我想說這部分我們一起來努力讓他的吸引力更提升這個更重要我想這個部分"},{"start":13031.312,"end":13057.4,"text":"部長因為根據我們調了一些統計資料發現就是一般的民眾對於我們南部跟東部這個房價普遍比中北部更高這個負面的訊息一直在媒體上不斷的露出然後我想對業者不盡公平因為我們整個南部的營運的成本以及物料的成本相對性比較高那這部分交通部怎麼樣來協助業者來做解決"},{"start":13059.521,"end":13083.849,"text":"我跟委員這個過去我講過一個但是大家會覺得哇這個是不是第一個就是我真的是瞭解說現在旅館業因為他離烘客人不多都是集中在建烘所以他的房價會在建烘比較高這也是他從經營成本跟收入的考量我們這個可以理解所以我們現在的想法就是說如果國際觀光客進來補離烘的部分"},{"start":13085.109,"end":13108.448,"text":"補完以後我想說也可以跟如果大家真的那時候都賺到錢錢提那為了要吸引更多人在國內旅遊那是不是我們再討論一下這個比如說這個旅館的這個費用有沒有調整的空間但是這個也不是全台灣一起調整應該是某一些就是說他的確有賺到錢那他應該回饋給消費者"},{"start":13109.389,"end":13109.549,"text":"部長我想"},{"start":13125.016,"end":13148.382,"text":"網絡上對這個所謂的一個國旅訂房率偏低也有幾個熱烈討論的一些話題那包含缺工、包含國際旅客不來、包含原物料上漲、包含國內景點沒有吸引力那我想這些的問題部裡面應該要正面對那這個部分是不是請交通部在兩個月之內提出一個完整的配套措施"},{"start":13149.102,"end":13167.011,"text":"好,我是請署長他跟所來他稍微稍微簡單跟你報告一下剛剛謝謝委員之前也特別拜會委員特別提到其實我們希望能夠加大力道把倡議我們南部的這個旅遊的亮點所以我們也希望能夠在今年我們把2024跟2025當作一個雙年的方式來推動我們的"},{"start":13171.834,"end":13173.234,"text":"我們希望能夠加大這個南部的這些亮點"},{"start":13200.68,"end":13227.17,"text":"那麼其次呢我們是希望說旅宿的部分因為雙東的部分啦屏東跟台東的部分確實都是假日比較會到我們的屏東跟台東所以我們怎麼樣去擴大這個非假日的部分的增加一些誘因所以我想說這些我們都是雙管齊下那我們也把新南向的部分"},{"start":13228.09,"end":13240.482,"text":"通過我們的小港機場也當作一個重點那我們希望能夠把這個擴大我們的這個東南亞能夠到我們的臺南高雄屏東做這樣的一個搭配好"},{"start":13241.301,"end":13263.312,"text":"我想部長跟署長我們一起來努力我想業者他們大家也都願意來配合只是說我們政府在整個配套上面還有一些政策上面怎麼樣再釋出更多的利多那這個業者這邊他們都願意來全力配合那另外我再請教一下部長其實除了屏東除了墾丁之外還有一個很重要的觀光景點叫做大鵬灣"},{"start":13264.392,"end":13264.732,"text":"我請署長跟您報告"},{"start":13284.565,"end":13284.725,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13315.766,"end":13341.324,"text":"我們現在目前還是按照程序在走這點我大概要提醒一下部長跟署長其實大部分的問題在於說很多廠商願意來但是面對的是我們現在我們很多的公共設施包含水質跟基礎建設我們的處理的速度太慢了造成業者他們不敢來投資那針對這些問題我們部裡面有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":13341.964,"end":13366.993,"text":"這個部分我們已經專案在處理現在大幅改善了那現在主要是還是希望能夠更多的這個法令的鬆綁我們就是盡量都已經都開放了所以這個部分就等招商的部分來看這個投資的這個廠商他們的看法這部分還是請部委員還有署長這邊其他的水準我們都已經持續在做"},{"start":13368.753,"end":13393.082,"text":"另外針對我想屏東這個鐵路高架化並只有做到一部分目前做到潮州到林邊那還有一部分的鐵路高架並沒有完成那也最近幾年也陸陸續續發生很多的鐵路平交道的事故那我需要請教一下部長那究竟我們屏東縣的鐵路全線高架化什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":13399.076,"end":13423.61,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在研究把仿遙車站的部分納入南回平井路段改善的這個可行性研究裡面來去做探討現在主要是說本來也有談到比如說潮州以後要不要多高價但是這個金額非常的高所以現在大部分現在的重點就是仿遙大車站平台這個計畫就仿遙車站的前後來做一個處理目前"},{"start":13424.711,"end":13445.135,"text":"市長不要每次提到經費就講說南部人這個經費要很龐大我們聽不下去啦我們就是有在落水我們也是不能做二等國民啦因為真的每次遇到交通事故甚至等一個交通評價到的一個都要等很久的時間這不是我們民眾人要看到的情形先從黃寮車站的這個人比較多啦從黃寮車站先來處理"},{"start":13449.71,"end":13473.966,"text":"有沒有一個騎乘規劃現在是直接處理高價化高價化的部分仿寮車站高價化仿寮部分先處理對這個我在想我印象中因為7年前又停到而且這個仿寮站那邊會造成所謂的一個淹水的一個很嚴重的一個問題這應該是不是加快來進行他們那個可行性報告已經完成我們加快來審查先從仿寮開始好"},{"start":13476.109,"end":13495.263,"text":"那最後一個問題我想請教部長就是因為我們現在目前的鐵路建設都要拖很久的時間那我想未來有沒有可能走向一個所謂的民營的一個系統來考量就是所謂的一個鐵路路線跟車站的一個規劃的部分"},{"start":13496.418,"end":13516.554,"text":"目前是這樣因為那個我們先第一個是組織改革就台鐵變成現在業業要變成台鐵公司我想就由他先去經營就是說會不會走上民意化現在目前是還是以勾引化勾引公司的方式來處理那這種勾引公司也可以進到很多偏鄉的義務"},{"start":13517.315,"end":13518.235,"text":"許委員發言完畢,現在我們先處理臨時提案"},{"start":13546.107,"end":13575.693,"text":"本日既有6案請議事人員一併宣讀宣讀臨時提案提案1 建請中華電信檢視近5年內虛擬行動網路服務經營者合作廠商是否均符合並持有NCC相關電信執照以及查詢客戶各自外流情況相關補償措施及檢討報告請於兩週內提出提案人委員黃建豪等"},{"start":13576.974,"end":13601.406,"text":"提案2 交通部鐵道局於汐止舉辦基隆捷運公聽會時﹐足以代表汐止民眾對於板南線延伸的期待﹐請交通部折成相關單位於一個月之內﹐啟動臺北捷運板南線延伸汐止之可行性評估﹐以回應民意﹐便利民眾通勤生活密集往來﹐並滿足地方政府都市發展需求﹐提案委員"},{"start":13602.106,"end":13626.773,"text":"料先詳等提案3桃園機場捷運預估上需9列車直達6列普通車才能符合未來季節營運需求原要求交通部及相關單位1月2個月內競速與桃園市政府達成購車協議一例未來桃園機場捷運永續發展並提升旅客服務量能提案委員盧明哲等"},{"start":13627.293,"end":13653.938,"text":"提案4近年來常有貨運車行將貨車抵押貸款以致糾紛平船建請交通部公路局參考土地法第79條之一規定要求大貨車銬行契約及相關貸款行為因送至監理機關核備並由監理機關實質審查後通知車主以保障車主權益提案由委員林俊憲等"},{"start":13656.448,"end":13683.591,"text":"提案5在中央地方共同建設之前提下提案要求交通部於一個月內邀集新北桃園市府討論督促提出林口龜山輕軌建設可行性評估計畫作為整體計畫之開展並回復提案委員該建設計畫注目時間表展現中央與地方共同推動大眾運輸之積極態度提案人委員林佩祥等"},{"start":13684.906,"end":13713.437,"text":"提案6台中捷運南線延伸到南投縣為南投縣民期盼之重大交通建設亦為總統大選各陣營資重要主張原此行政面積交通部應盡數協助並早日合併台中捷運延伸至南投要求交通部與一個月內提出規劃其成並向本委員會報告以完善南投台中軌道交通米坪城鄉差距促進南投產業發展"},{"start":13714.577,"end":13716.98,"text":"第2委員由吳浩等宣布完畢"},{"start":13734.791,"end":13754.759,"text":"報告主席有關黃委員等提案的案由建議做以下的修改之因電信詐騙頻傳MVNO廠商若有涉入詐騙案件可能導致個資外流句號"},{"start":13755.939,"end":13781.311,"text":"請中華電信檢視近5年內 NVNO 虛擬行動網路服務經營者 合作廠商確認合作廠商是否均符合契約要求與NCC相關規範句號 NVNO若有違反規定 造成各自外洩 應擬拒"},{"start":13785.31,"end":13802.725,"text":"相關補償措施句號請中華電信於一個月內提出檢討報告那報告主席剛才有先跟這個黃委員等進行溝通獲得他的這個同意以上報告黃建豪委員在現場嘛來"},{"start":13805.487,"end":13806.908,"text":"請說坐著就可以坐著"},{"start":13828.114,"end":13829.635,"text":"中華電信只是電信三雄之一,另外兩雄不歸他管"},{"start":13855.056,"end":13876.702,"text":"好 那我們就按照這個修正文字通過了好 修正通過第二案 來請說明交通部請說明報告委員 有關料委員提出的提示條我們遵照辦理遵照辦理 那通過現在處理第三案 來交通部說明"},{"start":13877.301,"end":13903.431,"text":"我先向盧委員說明以後盧委員也同意做一些文字修正修正的部分是有關嚴要求交通局改成嚴要求交通部那另外競速與桃園市政府達成購車協議改成競速與桃園市政府積極協議以上那盧委員同意好修正通過現在處理第4案"},{"start":13905.317,"end":13929.487,"text":"第4案的部分已經有跟提案委員、鄰居縣委員這一個報告那做一些文字的修正就是倒數第二行就是這一個相關貸款行為應送至監理機關註記那後面的核被並由監理機關實施審查後這個刪除那改為就是註記然後次日通知契約車主"},{"start":13931.769,"end":13957.245,"text":"保障車主權益後面再加一句話就是一個月內完成作業流程規劃以上報告有跟林委員做過報告他接受嗎?接受了徐委員剛才林委員的提案有跟你討論嗎?沒問題那就修正通過接下來進行第5案"},{"start":13961.463,"end":13962.743,"text":"來,請交通部部長王國材列席報告業務概況來,紅衛員有沒有意見怎麼樣,剛剛講說"},{"start":13990.53,"end":14008.019,"text":"來可以多久時間可以好兩個月內嗎好兩個月開會了好不好我想我們也理解就是說有些時候這個交通軌道建設是地方政府這邊需要主動的一個提報但是就是說看到尤其是去年王國材部長來到我們林口地區來做這個交通"},{"start":14008.439,"end":14008.699,"text":"李委員﹖"},{"start":14034.476,"end":14061.995,"text":"謝謝主席這本席身為龜山的民意代表我們非常同意孟凱委員的提案那其實台灣市政府針對這樣子的輕軌路網的延伸應該也有一些初步的想法跟概念當然是交通建設知識體大尤其又是一個跨域的題目我們當然希望就是說中央在裡面也扮演積極的角色所以希望就是說盡快剛剛我們同意兩個月之內先來做一個大體討論嘛讓這個案子有具體的進度透過大眾運輸的方式改善林口龜山大台地塞車的問題以上謝謝"},{"start":14064.516,"end":14067.158,"text":"修正通過現在進行第6案來交通部說明"},{"start":14092.712,"end":14115.692,"text":"跟委員會報告剛才跟有委員說明以後依據有委員的意見修正文字原始行政院交通部因競速協助並早日核定台中捷運延伸至南投以南投縣政府提出南投縣軌道系統整體路網評估計畫後競速核定並"},{"start":14118.074,"end":14142.315,"text":"經費協助請交通部以2個月內提出規劃期程並向本委會提出書面報告來 余委員有沒有意見謝謝召委那補充一下因為身為南投選出來的民意代表那在這個部分的話我覺得不行要有宣誓的意義同時也必須要有實際的進度還在看到"},{"start":14142.875,"end":14143.135,"text":"修正通過"},{"start":14170.87,"end":14195.696,"text":"臨時提案處理完畢如有委員對上述提案補簽列入記錄並刊登公報現在請許智傑委員繼續發言許委員發言完畢之後我們中午會給大家吃飯的時間下午1點半繼續開會"},{"start":14201.579,"end":14219.346,"text":"那是在剛才宣布之前阿沒關係那我們就等紅委員阿我們就第一次的這種業務報告阿就特別再給紅委員發言完畢之後阿再來做休息吃飯請徐委員發言"},{"start":14226.829,"end":14231.172,"text":"謝謝趙偉,我們先請明堂局長請明堂局何局長何局長局長那個"},{"start":14255.933,"end":14277.726,"text":"我們桃園機場塞機我想局長應該很清楚我一個助理從那個雜放回來就耽擱了3個小時那桃園機場這個跑道維修也是事先就知道的事那這些事情為什麼不能事先防範呢所以呢我想"},{"start":14279.67,"end":14306.078,"text":"我們要替高雄再做一次的呼籲你提早規劃到我們高雄的航班應該就可以少掉這些問題為什麼不能處理呢對我先舉個例子你看我們高雄非日本非韓國的載客率都比桃園機場還高所以我們就覺得說為什麼那邊塞的鑰匙這邊沒有航班來"},{"start":14307.739,"end":14308.059,"text":"好,我們看下一頁"},{"start":14331.503,"end":14354.365,"text":"事實上交通部所做的事我們也要表示肯定就是說桃園到布拉格、高雄到新加坡、沖繩包括我們的高雄到茨城的航班高雄到靜岡我們現在是獨飛的航線那到首爾、金浦、越南、香港等有很多的廉價航空"},{"start":14356.627,"end":14381.278,"text":"包括新加坡沖繩這個也謝謝啦那我們也就是說其實高雄並不是沒有潛力那我們也希望說交通部多重視高雄民航局多重視高雄能夠讓我們高雄的班機可以盡快到位我們再看下一頁我們高雄爭取的航線我們先講就是321"},{"start":14383.308,"end":14388.313,"text":"九州的北海道的雜訪從去年講到現在還沒有完成"},{"start":14389.778,"end":14418.389,"text":"那九州熊本市上熊本市跟我們高雄市姐妹是我們兩個城市非常的好熊本市長也都到高雄兩三次了那結果都沒有直飛的航班那包括韓國的寄州照所以呢這個部分日韓的航線比我們高雄多8倍那我們的載客率又比桃園還要高所以是不是這個地方可以盡快來做一個調整讓我們高雄有更多的航班"},{"start":14419.709,"end":14439.043,"text":"當然就是馬祖蘭干他有困難度但是我們還是希望再要求美國洛杉磯事實上可以看到這個很多班次很多班次現在一個月好像300多班而且在增加中那為什麼一直都沒有機會去做一個大部分的調整"},{"start":14440.104,"end":14459.107,"text":"包括我們觀光局現在改成觀光署也新設了好幾個辦事處像我們的雅加達甚至釜山甚至孟買現在因為觀光局升格為觀光署那剩下很多的辦事處但是正在這些辦事處相對的航班都沒有調整"},{"start":14460.527,"end":14474.552,"text":"所以我也再一次的呼籲就是我們高雄飛印尼事實上這是可以直飛的不用每一次高雄人都一定要舟車勞頓到桃園那另外當然印度你看這個十幾億的人口因為我們竟然沒有直飛"},{"start":14476.152,"end":14502.28,"text":"當然這個部分是不是規劃桃園先行我們也不會說高雄先行這整個台灣做考量桃園先行這我們是可以考慮的但是總是要設計這樣子一個直飛的路線所以這個航線的規劃我們也知道現在就是我們的那個高雄機場也在改建當中所以我是不是可以具體的就是要求就是民航局"},{"start":14504.11,"end":14512.422,"text":"跟交通部是不是可以做一個盡快的調整以及不然你就替我們高雄的所有的宅客做一個書面報告、評估報告這樣子OK嗎?"},{"start":14516.43,"end":14542.043,"text":"想跟委員報告確實在高雄這邊的航班恢復其實根據我們的統計基本上如果扣除大陸然後還有日本因為他地勤運輸等等恢復比較慢有恢復的我都知道啦我現在就是說我看到這個塞機覺得心痛啦要怎麼樣去調整現在已經有調整了那我們也感謝啦我現在就是我們要求的像熊本、雜黃、濟州島"},{"start":14545.252,"end":14552.46,"text":"這個我們因應的盼竊嘛因應期盼嘛但是還那個看不到我們希望的成果"},{"start":14553.328,"end":14582.207,"text":"我想日本的部分就剛剛講他恢復的比較慢因為主要是受限於他們的地勤的代理的量能尤其熊本這一邊也是一樣那至於韓國東南亞其實已經都恢復到95%那當然...沒關係因為我時間有限你就...你的解釋我大概都聽過了之前也都解釋過了那能夠調配的就請民航局盡快跟華航或者是日本相關的地方就是盡快做調配"},{"start":14583.528,"end":14585.909,"text":"下一張,這個圖片是哪裡你知道嗎?臺灣機場,部長知道齁?"},{"start":14609.485,"end":14628.342,"text":"我們高雄好像沒有這一種那個膠囊旅館所以我要求的是現在高雄新航廈我們在那個重蓋嘛對不對我們就是辦辦施工嘛但是這個有沒有規劃進去桃園機場因為它是目前的規劃裡面規劃中"},{"start":14632.426,"end":14642.045,"text":"我們在檢討,因為桃園機場是24小時的機場是啦,24小時就比較不用住啊我們那個中間正好有那個消遣時間正好住進來正好啊"},{"start":14643.888,"end":14670.271,"text":"因為高雄比較多是區域線的啦他可能進來所以就是因為你航班規劃的不夠才會變成區域線嘛所以你如果規劃的所以我就要求是說那個部長有聽到啦就民航局做一個整體的我們的運量跟這些航班的調配那包括像這一種交通旅館現在都已經要新蓋為什麼不把它設計進去呢難道我們永遠就是要當作宵禁所以很多班次就不來所以就算了嗎"},{"start":14673.88,"end":14687.83,"text":"所以高雄過境江南旅館我覺得是必要的要把它一起思考進來然後就整個將來南北的調配我希望說棉行局跟交通部可以做一下規劃好不好我們現在請部長請王部長委員好部長都有聽到啦剛剛讓你休息一下主要就是說現在你起來就說好就好"},{"start":14704.332,"end":14731.199,"text":"就是說那個高雄有宵禁嘛那晚上太晚就睡覺了加上旅館隔天再走這樣有必要嘛對不對看起來是蠻合理的對啊很合理啊所以希望說民航局這個部分在航廈的部分尤其現在正在施工當中正在規劃嘛那趕快要把這個東西放進來不然以後還是沒有啊好我請他們研究啦對啊這個想法應該蠻好的啦希望說那個交通部跟民航局可以把它規劃進來"},{"start":14733.279,"end":14760.207,"text":"包括整個航班我們的運量跟航班希望那個一個月左右給我一份評估報告好不好好你們用心去評估啦不然每一次我不是說單點頭痛一頭腳痛一腳每次都講一個點你們做一個更詳細的完整的評估這樣子能夠讓高雄有更大的運量這些部分我們就提前把它做一個整體大量的評估好不好是好現在那其他可以先休息馬上部長"},{"start":14761.243,"end":14765.953,"text":"部長那個我們高雄的交通真的是也要看得很長遠啦那"},{"start":14768.513,"end":14794.955,"text":"我想到底像台北,台北其實它的高鐵它有三個核心就是台北車站、板橋車站跟南港車站它是東西跟包括原的縣區都有那我們高雄現在只有一個左營左營將來你在像看往後50年恐怕它的運量都會集中在左營那很可怕的那整個南高雄呢我覺得會稍微的會"},{"start":14797.642,"end":14799.863,"text":"因為我們原高雄市區人口眾多"},{"start":14826.363,"end":14842.194,"text":"那因為高雄市區我認為你至少要一或二個高鐵站再進來就像台北我說台北有三核心高雄現在只有一核心啦你這樣只有一核心那個感覺上你往後看50年我是覺得這樣子的思考是不夠的"},{"start":14843.38,"end":14859.605,"text":"現在這樣就是說如果要進入市區當然第一個是進來的這個施工期啦施工的對於市區的影響那當然我們也可以從很多新的工法比如說前頓工法等等來避免第二個是我覺得面臨最大是拆遷"},{"start":14861.485,"end":14887.96,"text":"我覺得拆遷這個課題就是說現在沒有進去這個不拆遷等進來拆遷對於這個市民有沒有辦法接受所以我覺得這個需要一個包括市政府跟可能當地市民溝通的一個過程這是一個大的概念就是說要做一個整體的統合的思考我們再看下一張我們盡快時間已經到了你看我們的台鐵新左營站跟台鐵藍紙站那"},{"start":14889.501,"end":14905.112,"text":"澆進去的這個紅線的捷運的部分南子產業園區的部分將來所有的台積電進駐跟他的所有的產業鏈進駐通通在這裡只靠一個捷運紅線你想一想到時候這邊會急死啊"},{"start":14907.424,"end":14927.027,"text":"所以就是說這裡是不是有機會我們台鐵既然我們的籃子百慕打這邊要立體化對不對是不是就是可以在解決籃子百慕打的問題的同時在中間再設一站籃子產業園區的台鐵站那我們鳳山人如果在"},{"start":14927.828,"end":14939.299,"text":"到台積電上班啦﹖或者是屏東人到台積電上班啦﹖他就可以直接坐台鐵﹖就直接坐到楠梓產業園去這邊下車﹖他就不用再轉車﹖那就差一個站﹖那有沒有可能這裡就說"},{"start":14941.921,"end":14963.741,"text":"來增加這個部分現在那個高雄市政府沒有補助一個可行性的經費給他他正在做這是王北營生男子的這樣的一個鐵路高架化的這個可行性研究這個由他們在可行性裡面評估是不是要增加通勤車站我想這部分我們會跟高雄市政府提出來以後我們跟他做一些討論"},{"start":14964.542,"end":14991.513,"text":"我想最後一個結論因為時間到了主席站起來了那個我們看一下就是說整個高雄市未來的所有的交通的規劃除了剛才我們講的飛機的航班跟評估希望部長跟民進黨局督促我們一起來努力規劃的更多更好之外那我們的鐵路就包括高鐵包括台鐵包括捷運我想這些東西"},{"start":14992.313,"end":15020.398,"text":"不要一段一段啦那比如說我再舉個例子就我們的高鐵假設是左營一個核心再加上高雄跟鳳山兩個就變成三個核心那如果剛剛局長那個部長提到就是說在這個設計規劃上也許人民會有不同的意見那有沒有可能配合我們現在捷運黃線要搭要蓋嘛對不對也是要挖地下嘛那我如果把高鐵接捷運黃線如果說我再接一個衛武營"},{"start":15021.994,"end":15051.714,"text":"假設啦你如果三核心高雄車站那邊有困難或風扇車站有困難那你就如果說左營直接交到衛委員這樣子就雙核心這樣子一個思考搭配現在黃線的思考是不是也有機會也就是說請部長做一下比較更通盤的考量啦那可能一個方案兩個方案三個方案是不是做一下也作為交通部做一下評估讓我們以高雄50年後的發展可以讓他走得更順暢走得更好"},{"start":15051.994,"end":15053.055,"text":"主席謝謝,麻煩請王國材部長"},{"start":15085.274,"end":15108.242,"text":"好部長好部長本期有注意到說侯友宜市長日前有講說有跟您溝通討論包括說巴黎輕軌及地方的建設是不是有見過面討論過那有見過面那目前不管是我們新北地區或說整個臺北地區其實有幾個重大公共建設我們也都需要持續的推動所以感謝剛剛我們這邊鐵道局承諾說兩個月內要召開這個相關的一個討論我想先請教"},{"start":15114.944,"end":15130.764,"text":"不管是巴黎、輕軌目前那一天討論跟侯友宜市長這邊講的怎麼樣巴黎、輕軌因為在國外的審查意見是認為淡海二期要先做所以我們現在是優先審查那個淡海二期淡海二期是什麼部分"},{"start":15136.026,"end":15160.044,"text":"藍海線二期藍海線二期跟巴黎輕軌其實是兩個不同的建設啊都是巴黎輕軌嗎會接過來會接過來如果你沒有接的話那過來沒辦法接所以第一部分我們先來處理這一個然後第二個我是覺得在整個巴黎或是這個藍海輕軌二期都很重要藍海線二期什麼時候可以評估確認"},{"start":15163.075,"end":15183.55,"text":"這也講了非常久了我們這個月會召開部裡面的審查委員會這月會召開部裡面的審查會議另外有泰坂輕軌因為武泰輕軌在之前行政院長也大動作的到我們地方去講說通過可行性評估但其實我們認為說更重要地方需求是泰坂輕軌泰山道板橋的泰坂輕軌"},{"start":15186.62,"end":15212.625,"text":"現在應該是可行性現在是新北市政府市府要送可行性研究要進來我們部內嘛是的,鐵道局已經召開過研商的會議那現在請新北市政府在做報告的修正當中他可行性提出來了啦我們給他一個初步意見比如說中間有談到一些支線有些委員是提到支線看他要不要能放放進考慮等等的我們給他一些意見讓他在修正報告中好"},{"start":15213.385,"end":15229.232,"text":"本席為什麼今天提到這麼重要就是不管是巴黎輕軌不管是泰坂輕軌不管是剛剛講的林口龜山輕軌或者是甚至我們現在講在國道上面有林口交流道、五谷交流道都已經在施工那本席也非常關心圓山交流道什麼時候施工"},{"start":15229.932,"end":15230.612,"text":"改善工程"},{"start":15260.212,"end":15282.099,"text":"媒體上有沒有看到你說那個陶淇毅的檢討沒有進去因為這個報告早就印好了所以您為我建議所以早就印好就不能改部長我建議你現在不要嬉皮笑臉因為這個是國人最影響最深我相信從早上到現在已經有非常多交通委員會委員在跟您要求"},{"start":15284.095,"end":15305.637,"text":"報告是禮拜三這個是上禮拜召委牌的專案報告但是大家國人都在看你第一天進來到國會拿出什麼樣的態度交通部用什麼樣的立場來去面對現在影響到國人那麼多問題的狀況而桃園機場在這一次我們講說為什麼大家會那麼的憤怒就是因為他不是一個天災啊"},{"start":15306.678,"end":15326.973,"text":"沒有天氣因素沒有因為說暴風雨沒有因為說大霧完完全全是一個人禍所以造成說調配不靈或是整個大塞機的狀況那這樣塞機的狀況不是我們事先預排的嗎是啊過去有沒有稅修過有啊那為什麼過去稅修不會發生這樣的情況"},{"start":15329.651,"end":15356.01,"text":"今天早上,對,各位委員報告我不是的意思,就是報告出來但是我有談到今天大部分的委員都在問這個問題我們也做了很多答覆我想請教,一個月內會有懲處的報告那有沒有包括有人要負責下台?有沒有政治責任?我們初步是這個由我們行政司做一個評估有沒有政治責任嗎?"},{"start":15357.54,"end":15382.61,"text":"我們現在在問的就是說完完全全這一個事件就是人禍因為沒有天氣沒有任何不好的情況如果今天有大霧大風沒有那預想就是沒有超前部署嘛那有沒有政治責任還是一個月後大家也忘了反正現在媒體有其他的焦點關心那塞車塞機也已經過了"},{"start":15384.639,"end":15409.015,"text":"有沒有政治責任有沒有人要負政治責任我想政治責任當然是政務官包括我都要負啦但是就是說這整個的流程也包括到很多這個相關的主管是不是在處理這件事情有警覺性這個事我想是不是您自己也講了嘛這一次最重要的就是因為大家沒有看重嘛沒有警覺嘛所以才造成那麼大問題嘛是不是會來懲處然後這個一個月內會跟大家做一個報告部長"},{"start":15415.285,"end":15428.722,"text":"你覺得你的懲處讓國人能夠接受嗎來我再問啦你如果說要這樣的話那我再請教這一次塞機事件造成的民眾航空公司損失有多大"},{"start":15430.485,"end":15456.588,"text":"現在大概有總共差不多快700架有大概47%是影響現在我現在請他們講我想問我們到現在也已經三天了我們有沒有去算過說這一次因為塞機事件不管是航班的調度不管是旅客的轉機沒有轉上不管是航空公司油料的問題到最後這一次的塞機事件影響有多大損失有多少"},{"start":15457.822,"end":15464.889,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們正在要跟航空公司來做統計那這些資料我們現在還沒有所以都還沒有還沒有統計出來所以都還沒有已經幾天了什麼時候會算出來"},{"start":15471.673,"end":15476.219,"text":"我們下個禮拜會跟航空公司做這個部分做詳細的討論目前已經在延長當中所以不覺得太慢了嗎"},{"start":15489.721,"end":15490.321,"text":"目前還沒有統計出來"},{"start":15521.235,"end":15535.097,"text":"為什麼本席會講說到底是麻木還是白木就是因為覺得在這件事情上面態度沒有展現出來你在事前沒有準備好 這不是第一次的稅休 沒有準備好態度"},{"start":15536.328,"end":15562.129,"text":"然後你現在所有人大家炸鍋之後到目前為止還不知道說到底損失了多少好像逃過新的鬼換言兩三天過了還有部長那天還可以下令是說我們稅收這是安全的問題嘛你可以下令說提早16個小時加速那我們國內也會問啊如果說可以提早16個小時那當初明顯就是有放寬嘛那如果說沒有放寬那你提早16個小時有沒有安全的疑慮"},{"start":15563.257,"end":15579.869,"text":"所以怎麼講都認為說在這件事情上面沒有展現出專業變成是民怨沸騰的時候趕快大官再出來然後用人為的狀況來去做一個調配那現在後續這一個事件到底還有影響多廣多深也不知道"},{"start":15580.916,"end":15594.353,"text":"反正認定的心態就是今天來被罵一罵媒體兩三天之後不報道了然後一個月後我們就看到網站上面出來一個新聞稿或出來一個公告有人寄大過有人寄警告"},{"start":15595.593,"end":15614.176,"text":"就這樣沒有任何政治責任這是不是就是現在政府要面對的問題的處理態度看起來就是啊我們現在已經徹底在做檢討跟改善嘛也徹底檢討改善是你嘴巴講但是國內沒有感受到我到目前為止我問的這些問題你們都答不出來"},{"start":15615.177,"end":15638.457,"text":"這叫什麼檢討?這叫什麼改善?不是答不出來我們現在有時間讓他們跟比如說陪長的部分要跟航空公司來討論嘛然後標準座位程序他們也在下禮拜會把整個標準座位程序做一個優化提出來我想這部分都有一個時間那我跟委員報告也不是說我們這件事情把它今天當一天這個是很嚴肅的事情"},{"start":15638.797,"end":15663.715,"text":"當然很嚴肅所以這是為什麼本席來講就是說到底是麻木還是白木如果說這件事情真的那麼嚴肅我說實在今天你業務報告裡面多一句話多兩句話認為是說真的沒有我們還有做不出的地方要檢討要改進我常常講交通問題沒有最好只有更好就是因為大家都是用路人大家都是在交通運具上面會使用到的人沒有誰比較大"},{"start":15665.011,"end":15691.221,"text":"你會用飛機委員會用飛機你會用馬路委員會用馬路所以交通問題大家一起面對解決但是你們通篇的業務報告不管是口頭報告、書面報告都是只有好棒棒也不會這樣你這樣子國人要怎麼信任你說實在部長主席已經站起來了我很誠摯的講在整個民進黨政府部會裡面我覺得你還算是有專業的人"},{"start":15692.796,"end":15718.102,"text":"很誠摯地講我覺得你還算是有肩膀的人如果比起其他民怨來講民怨部會來講但是本期真的不希望這件事情會變成是壓垮你最後一根稻草我也希望民進黨政府有多一些有一點專業的人有一點肩膀的人有一點想要平衡地方發展發展建設的人而不是都充斥著酬庸或是充斥著不專業的一個部會首長"},{"start":15719.079,"end":15738.786,"text":"所以這是本席給你最大的一個忠告好好把這件事情處理好並且我們國人都在看到底你這件事情要怎麼善後我這樣好不好就是全部處理完我們會做一個對外的報告請王部長跟紅委員接下來可以再私下對話好謝謝紅委員發言完畢"},{"start":15746.141,"end":15748.934,"text":"好,我們現在休息,吃飯,下午1點半繼續開會"},{"start":15758.592,"end":15780.06,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":15784.404,"end":15784.584,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":15802.626,"end":15802.886,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15824.002,"end":15843.592,"text":"議員會議員議員會議"},{"start":15845.084,"end":15845.684,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":15874.579,"end":15875.62,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":15916.826,"end":15923.489,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":15930.947,"end":15955.077,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":15963.088,"end":15971.113,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":15993.167,"end":16006.377,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":16008.951,"end":16009.712,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":16037.602,"end":16063.865,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":16064.707,"end":16065.268,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16075.162,"end":16105.162,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":16107.605,"end":16108.466,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16146.694,"end":16154.577,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16161.493,"end":16173.936,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":18023.902,"end":18035.357,"text":"好繼續開會現在請鐘嘉斌委員發言來慢慢來哈"},{"start":18037.319,"end":18055.356,"text":"主席、加農委員先進、列席的政府基本法官員、會長、公眾夥伴、媒體記者女士先生那麼有請我們交通部王部長請王部長還有機場規劃應該是哪一個?行政司嗎?民航局民航局何局長何局長好"},{"start":18057.922,"end":18077.55,"text":"市長好,在上週我和高雄的邱志偉委員我們開了一個記者會就是說高雄準備好的煤它的高是高低的高熊是大黑熊的熊你知道那個熊是指哪一個地方嗎?熊本沒有錯高雄"},{"start":18078.717,"end":18102.157,"text":"跟高雄跟熊本這兩個城際交通因著台積電將會成為一個重要的結盟那麼台積電進駐熊本除了貨之外還有人家屬對不對?台積電很多員工都要出到熊本去啊那你認為小港機場準備好了沒有?我們當然硬體準備好只是說航線現在慢慢在恢復中所以你認為小港機場的輸運人士未來在應付這個是足夠的囉?"},{"start":18103.786,"end":18132.156,"text":"目前過,因為現在還沒有完全恢復還沒有完全恢復,沒有恢復是需求還沒有恢復啊我說機場的運能,運能準備好了沒?好來我們看一下,你慢慢想往下看齁這個在疫情兩年期間的你說有沒有恢復?國航、國籍航空公司你認為華航跟長榮在疫情間是賠本還是賺錢?賺錢賺錢靠什麼賺錢?貨運靠貨運沒有錯華航在一年他的貨運是他的客運的20倍"},{"start":18133.783,"end":18162.91,"text":"他的貨運和他的11年大概是大概將近5倍我們看長榮長榮在這兩年期間下一頁長榮呢他在10年的時候呢他的貨運是客運的10倍他的11年隔年貨運是客運的將近也8、9倍所以這說明了什麼說明了在疫情之後可能這個情況目前我們國航的貨運跟客運的占比是不是貨運還多客運一些些"},{"start":18166.534,"end":18190.294,"text":"我們來看一下桃園機場來往下桃園各機場的客貨運的統計客運的部分在全台灣的機場當中桃園的運能佔了快一半53%超過一半貨運呢幾乎都在桃園那表示什麼台灣的航空貨運出口如果沒有桃園就本完了你同不同意"},{"start":18191.85,"end":18196.014,"text":"台灣台積電半導體產業你覺得重心有沒有往南移?你認為目前台灣的晶片生產北部多還南部多?"},{"start":18209.236,"end":18232.017,"text":"應該是慢慢往南移啊慢慢往南移我告訴你我早上問過國發會主委他說目前南科的產能產量已經超過了竹科了那表示什麼半導體晶片的出口他們是往哪個機場送你覺得他現在應該是桃園機場往桃園機場送有3、4個小時在高速公路上所以當桃園機場發生這個問題我們往下看"},{"start":18234.636,"end":18234.656,"text":"對嘛!"},{"start":18246.86,"end":18273.192,"text":"所以現在桃園塞機不是影響到客運而已是連我們國家重要的護國神山臺積電臺灣的半導體產業在南部半壁江山他往北送送不出去還要再卡在高速公路上來我們請教一個問題那小港經常做什麼小港經常有什麼問題我們往下看你說運能運量還沒回來那是需求運能有沒有足夠小港經常是不是有這些阻礙"},{"start":18275.637,"end":18299.842,"text":"有宵禁嗎?宵禁晚上可以飛貨運嗎?不行貨運是24小時不停的?全世界的貨運主要機場都是24小時有沒有軍民抗議?有啊有嗎?附地如果我要做貨運我要更多的倉儲轉運喔客人可以住在高雄市中心的觀光大飯店你這些貨要在機場附近盤轉是不是要更大的附地?那小港有辦法嗎?"},{"start":18301.658,"end":18315.053,"text":"小港過去有一個戶地,就以前有一個航空服務員區的一個戶地在那個地方,過去有啊過去有,你們有沒有開始在研究啦?怎麼去解決半導體產業晶片出口的需求,我們往下看"},{"start":18315.998,"end":18316.018,"text":"為什麼?"},{"start":18341.529,"end":18362.786,"text":"現在的這種還品還有找到一個適合的機場非常不容易那如果台灣只剩下陶機在負責半導體機面的出口那台灣不是更慘嗎半導體產業對台灣這麼重要他在疫情期間整個台灣我們去年一個人可以領6000塊你知道台積電貢獻多少嗎?台積電貢獻的營業稅、營所稅加起來超過1000億啊我們每個人領6000去年花了多少億?花1300億"},{"start":18370.672,"end":18395.501,"text":"講得比較不客氣一點去年大概6千塊的這個紅包等於是靠台積電出口金錢賺來的這麼重要一個產業他如果按只依靠一個桃園機場做貨運還要讓給客運作為一張部長你覺得有沒有必要趕快運模出入現在就是小港機場的定位啦我沒有跟你談小機場我說怎麼解決這個需求你要在小港機場擴建還另外找貨運機場都是選項我們看最後一個"},{"start":18397.062,"end":18420.011,"text":"半導體從南部出口的需求評估這個我已經問過國發會了他一個月內會給我未來5到10年台灣的半導體晶片出口從哪裡出去需要多少的量他會算出來這樣如果要做什麼用力取得周邊的產業規劃和大眾運輸的接駁這是交通部的工作你可以如果國發會負責產業出口的需求評估評估出來了你可以負責貨運機場的運能規劃嗎"},{"start":18422.977,"end":18441.986,"text":"可以不可以?如果國保有這個需求,交通部就要負責這個機場運燃的規劃?對,這可以研究好,那一個月後他出來了,是不是就請你們來負責規劃?如果有這個需求?我們研究來做一個規劃報告好,謝謝什麼時候可以給?"},{"start":18443.871,"end":18447.172,"text":"總委員發言完畢現在請謝依鳳委員發言主席好,我想要請王部長"},{"start":18478.827,"end":18503.846,"text":"王部長午安我們去年才通過道路交通安全基本法我們希望可以做到我們的交通事故臨死亡這樣子一個願景但是你們也知道就是我們這一次在彰化有三個家福兒童誠信姐弟他們在路口的時候發生了交通的事故"},{"start":18504.466,"end":18519.781,"text":"那我們知道說現在我們國內的所有的標線號誌的話的那個設置都是根據道路交通的是什麼法?交通標誌標線號誌設置規則所以統一的嗎?是不是?對"},{"start":18526.568,"end":18553.633,"text":"但是我們全國的路、路寬甚至中央分隔島的距離以及每一個路口都是不一樣的那統一的這樣子的一個法規在各縣市怎麼樣的適用我看到了我們彰化有非常多的路口不只是潮話縣、標縣等等畫出來的這個比例都是"},{"start":18554.773,"end":18564.036,"text":"不一而且讓大家不知道怎麼遵循在這個情況下我們是不是應該要進行要請專案小組進行改善"},{"start":18564.977,"end":18589.689,"text":"我們現在在這樣 這個委員提到一個重要課題就是標誌、標線、號誌、設置規則是就每一個設置要怎麼做但是我們就是把這個規則給地方去做整體的設計但是它整體設計有時候會格格不入比如說我們要求設什麼標誌牌結果它在某個路口設滿了這個標誌牌的意思所以我們現在請易賢手再做一個指引"},{"start":18590.749,"end":18611.014,"text":"這是請預言所嗎?對,它會有一個再更細一點的就是說參考標誌標籤號誌社會規則是,你們是不是應該要有一個標準的一個範圍然後甚至對於不同的路寬不同的分隔島以及不同的路口要怎麼樣子做相關的規劃?"},{"start":18612.334,"end":18631.471,"text":"他指引就是所謂的組合,就是我們看標誌、號誌、全部組合起來應該怎麼做,所以他會有很多的案例什麼時候可以出來?我們首長他們正在做這個跟委員報告,我們今年大概就會先就一般性的這個比較普遍的道路的這種狀況,我們來先產生這個所謂的"},{"start":18635.695,"end":18653.616,"text":"我們現在不是就運用了道路交通標誌、標線、號誌、設置、規則嗎?那我們講的就是在一般道路的其他的太陽嘛,是不是?因為各種路況的太陽不一嘛,是不是?"},{"start":18654.737,"end":18674.194,"text":"對跟委員報告設置規則裡面對單項的標誌比如說樹線的標誌或是這個紅綠燈的號誌這個實質怎麼去做這個紅綠燈怎麼做設置他有基本的這個所謂的設置的一些原則性的規定可是道路的實際的環境每一個道路的狀況都不一樣"},{"start":18674.634,"end":18702.879,"text":"那到時候我們要在實際設置的時候要怎麼去運用這個規則裡面每一個單項的標誌、標籤跟號誌去做組合把它放到這個每一個現場的道路環境才能夠達到保障交通安全跟提升交通對,那什麼時候可以給對,我就說我們今年今年會先有一個這個這個今年是什麼時候就是年底我們會有一個初步要到年底啊那到年底前還有多少的交通事故會發生"},{"start":18704.189,"end":18704.329,"text":"法定法規"},{"start":18721.816,"end":18745.698,"text":"你知道公務人員你自己就是公務人員出身的公務人員都不想要違背法規嘛那在法規的這個限定下他們就沒有就是說在依據法規的限定下那就變成說好像我們還是我們都要舉辦各縣市的這樣子相關的路口的這個相關的協調會是不是"},{"start":18746.579,"end":18748.426,"text":"你就要把每一個縣市每一個縣市檢討嗎?不然以後要怎麼處理呢?"},{"start":18753.649,"end":18780.355,"text":"第一個就是這個指引出來當然那個速度越快越好啦比如說他有些入口的太陽比如說你像彰化這一個這個協交的入口要怎麼處理這個太陽趕快出來我是覺得他做差不多就有一些就可以劃步了慢慢當然我覺得年底太太慢了啦什麼時候可以出來我覺得陸陸續續啊因為他們也要做一個有一點時間但是我覺得陸陸續續的成果可以給地方政府來參考"},{"start":18781.075,"end":18782.959,"text":"你這樣子還不積極你應該要給個時間幾個月內嘛對不對你520之前可不可以做"},{"start":18790.225,"end":18817.099,"text":"我跟委員報告是我們當然這個整個因為標誌標証號誌他實際在各種不同的道路環境之下他有很多種的設置的一個狀況那我們我想我剛才報告的就是我想我們只要這個有討論有成果我們就可以及時提供給這個我們的地方政府來做這個運用"},{"start":18818.16,"end":18835.316,"text":"他們做好的這些範例齁我就覺得就直接趕快給地方政府就陸續給這樣啦那臨底可能是完成但是就陸續給這樣好不好所以就是隨時都要對如果我們經過研究過程中只要有我會來追你喔對還有喔像我我"},{"start":18836.397,"end":18837.939,"text":"我相信在全國裏面還是有非常多的路段是這樣的情況有一邊"},{"start":18853.834,"end":18855.576,"text":"政府無法全責不清的地方是不是?"},{"start":18871.608,"end":18889.139,"text":"的確,速限有沒有全部一致,當然一致是比較容易遵循,但是它有的,比如說有的地方會到這個比如說到學校,它就降到50,然後到哪一個地方它覺得入口的這個衝突比較多會降,它會按照"},{"start":18890.26,"end":18890.28,"text":"國道號誌"},{"start":18907.998,"end":18933.078,"text":"是不是也應該要只是也應該要統一或者是能夠給予更多的就是說延續性的這個就是說到達地就像我們某一個地方可能下交通道以後就是到了可能例如我們在北斗交通道下去就是西州的引道嘛引道下去是竹塘這樣子你能不能提供多一點的交通資訊呢"},{"start":18933.979,"end":18954.51,"text":"目前你說是講國道嗎對對對國道應該是算沒關係我們順便資料請他提供一個回答趙局長跟謝委員來做回報是他們有他的辦法對我覺得應該要提供多一點的交通指引讓所有的"},{"start":18955.33,"end":18956.03,"text":"現在請高金素美委員發言"},{"start":18986.547,"end":18987.249,"text":"王國材列席報告"},{"start":18992.793,"end":19014.39,"text":"好,2022年的時候7月20日交通部你們發布了露營場管理要點我們原本以為既有的露營場的合法化工作就會順利地展開了可是一年半過去露營場合法化卻成了我們所有部落族人的噩夢我們來看一下根據官網署的統計目前全台灣露營場總共有1845處其中有1667處是沒有合法的"},{"start":19020.154,"end":19035.281,"text":"根據我的了解目前申請的案件總共是800件但是屬於既有的廠家卻只有307件其他的493件都是新增的露營廠而我們整合起來800件的申請案部長你知道有幾家通過了嗎?"},{"start":19037.681,"end":19065.783,"text":"不要浪費我時間只有一家只有一家而且這一家是新設立的露營場不是既有的喔聽好當初我們制定露營場的合法化要點最重要的就是輔導既有的業者來合法可是您看到我的數據一年半過去了既有業者不僅他的申請意願非常的低到現在沒有任何一家通過所以這件事情是恍然的"},{"start":19066.343,"end":19085.224,"text":"那我們的族人的噩夢是什麼呢?因為露營場的設立不可以位於19項環境敏感區其中有一項叫做土石流淺室溪的範圍部長土石流產生的要件是什麼?我們都知道土砂坡度大還要有水"},{"start":19086.005,"end":19106.879,"text":"所以農業部因此公布的土石流潛水溪流的範圍是用防災用的對不對他主要是在風險潛水分級可能會影響到範圍之內然後以防災工作之用我要請教部長了颱風警戒發布的時候你會去露營嗎?不會吧?"},{"start":19108.941,"end":19120.053,"text":"入營業者敢收這些客人嗎?也不會吧?所以根據水保署公告的土石流潛勢溪流你知道全台有多少個嗎?有1732條"},{"start":19123.277,"end":19140.036,"text":"他的含括包括什麼風景區、休閒農業區、學校、寺廟、派出所就連山山國家風景區的獅山遊客中心他也位於土石流潛勢溪流範圍之內所以並沒有禁縣建"},{"start":19144.381,"end":19158.357,"text":"可是根據非都市土地使用管制規則第6條附表1的規定我們的露營場卻不可以位於土石流潛勢溪流範圍的請問一下我們的境線依據"},{"start":19161.56,"end":19175.628,"text":"為何是毫無根據的嘛所以呢結果會造成我們現在族人一個很大的困擾是什麼嗎而且是已經發生的事情了就因為我們現在的住家位於土石流淺市溪流範圍那麼他同時也是經營露營場現在卻被我們的縣市政府因為這樣子的你們所謂的要開放露營而被開罰了"},{"start":19187.975,"end":19209.731,"text":"這顯然不合理也不合法的規定造成我們族人真的是很啞口無言所以是不是應該協助他們救濟這是我今天的問題第二點我要再建議部長針對19項環境敏感區不可以設立露營場的規定我希望一週內"},{"start":19211.292,"end":19237.846,"text":"也希望你們來通知國土署來檢討修正非都市土地使用管制規則第6條附表1的規定。部長你同意嗎?的確我們希望,錄影室現在很普遍,尤其在山地也非常普遍但是你談到現在最大問題的確就是這19項環境敏感地區限制它能夠合法的"},{"start":19239.335,"end":19241.997,"text":"國土署．國土署．國土署．國土署．國土署．國土署．國土署．國土署．國土署．國土署．"},{"start":19259.048,"end":19286.835,"text":"同時還要輔導我們露營場的工作因為交通部你們應該可以分階段來辦理特別是你應該也清楚5月1號縣市國土計畫他就有公告實施其中很重要的部分是原住民族的部落只要是在105年5月1號前他既有的住宅未來都會合法同時土地會變更為建地"},{"start":19288.175,"end":19308.828,"text":"而原住民的土地也會同步來制定原住民族土地管制規則然後我們來進行建管的工作那因為我們很多的族人露營場都是用自宅作為管理看一下這個照片經營的是無橫露營區就好像這個照片一樣像這種僅有住宅跟預測的露營場我覺得交通部你們應該立刻要跟人民會成立輔導平台"},{"start":19314.231,"end":19341.91,"text":"優先來協助處理他們所以我今天的三個總結是第一個要協助族人救濟現在已經要被開罰的人怎麼樣來協助他們第二個依照露營場的樣態然後分階段的來輔導並且要優先輔導無痕露營區第三個交通部和園民會你們必須要成立一個合作平台來輔導原住民經營的露營場可不可以"},{"start":19342.47,"end":19359.233,"text":"我想說我們就跟他我看他們下禮拜做一個開會來討論就的確現在福島的困境在尤其原住民區他們是希望趕快合法來經營這件事對既有的嘛"},{"start":19360.054,"end":19360.294,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":19382.779,"end":19403.836,"text":"我們需要把現在原住民地區的樣態讓他們都清楚因為本席跑了全台灣所有的原鄉地區我非常清楚知道他們的困境在哪裡 可以嗎好 我們會通知委員辦公室好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 高金委員發言完畢現在請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":19412.998,"end":19414.501,"text":"王國材列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":19427.979,"end":19448.212,"text":"昨天我揭露我們桃機公司這個員工提供給我的澄清函提到我們鄭文燦副院長陸續安插他當年在桃園市的時候的一些相關的員工進入了我們桃機公司"},{"start":19449.096,"end":19476.256,"text":"因為這兩天大家的聚焦都是在最近我們機場因為稅休然後造成的整個大塞機那當然淘氣公司也受到很多的責難那我特別要講如果一家公司他動不動就有人事酬庸動不動就有特定的人事把自己人塞進公司裡面當然會造成員工的士氣低落"},{"start":19477.321,"end":19488.02,"text":"那麼當淘氣公司出事的時候這些員工他心裡也非常非常的難受那我昨天披露之後呢今天媒體有問您"},{"start":19489.97,"end":19513.436,"text":"問王部長：部長說沒有這回事那我先想請教我們的董事長在你任內有沒有曾經有員工跟你反映這樣的事情你是否也像本席一樣接受過陶基公司這樣的陳秦涵就是直接的他非常清楚"},{"start":19514.156,"end":19525.958,"text":"哪些人被塞進來哪些人在哪些單位他寫得清清楚楚你是否曾經在你任內收過類似的陳情函"},{"start":19527.368,"end":19544.961,"text":"跟委員報告我是去年的3月份到陶器公司那從到任到陶器公司沒有這樣的一個情況從來沒有是沒有我看到昨天媒體的報導那部長你也從來沒有從陶器公司告訴你這個事情沒有完全沒有"},{"start":19545.942,"end":19560.592,"text":"那麼待會結束之後我會把這個陳秦涵同樣的我會請我們交通部的府會給我們部長也會給我們陶基公司的董事長請你們看一下"},{"start":19562.353,"end":19576.342,"text":"這個雖不稱為所謂的自製血淚但是裡面我直接來念進來民進黨派人寄生逃機胃口越來越大站的缺也越來越高桃園機場會這麼爛長久以來的陋習就是基層員工不停地忍受關說裡面也有講"},{"start":19587.244,"end":19604.089,"text":"他講到有兩位他說安插進來還沒有通過試用期然後甚至之前任職在什麼地方然後直言不會自己是靠高層關說進入陶瓊行為毫不羞恥"},{"start":19605.094,"end":19618.375,"text":"好,兩人靠關說空降桃園機場弄得全機場人靜皆知,廠商都知道現在食髓滋味還要塞更多人我桃機員工就是建民民進黨人才是人"},{"start":19619.73,"end":19648.013,"text":"所以這樣的問題如果第一層員工都這樣的不滿跟憤怒那未來你們怎麼帶領淘氣公司呢?我們國家的門面我們現在談到桃園機場的排名直直落最危勢的下降我不要說您說您8月就是董事長去年對不對去年整個都降到82名但是我並不認為這所有的過錯全部放在你一個人身上啦"},{"start":19648.88,"end":19661.516,"text":"前面就很多是愁央的啊董事長都愁庸了欸對不對桃園副市長然後跑去當董事長然後做的亂七八糟最後離開不是這樣子嗎還要繼續塞人"},{"start":19664.512,"end":19691.024,"text":"夠了吧所以我請部長和董事長能夠正視這件事情不要因為媒體說沒有沒有沒有我們都沒有酬庸如果你們是這樣的話以後這些員工士氣低落不說他們搞不好會爆更多的料如果你們願意去正視這些問題那我覺得他們會覺得還有希望另外請教部長"},{"start":19692.796,"end":19703.688,"text":"昨天我們工程會的主委他提到我們桃園機場第三航站的預算要再修正到1300億元"},{"start":19706.965,"end":19728.986,"text":"這個是在我們第二次修正計畫從原來最早746.89億一路向上修正到956.8億元這是第二次修正計畫現在又要修正主要提高到1300億我想請問一下我們的修正計畫定案了嗎?送行政院了嗎?確定了嗎?"},{"start":19732.397,"end":19734.379,"text":"現在進入第三次修正計畫是嗎?"},{"start":19753.3,"end":19781.483,"text":"目前我們第三次修正計畫公司這邊已經找你出來所以現在還沒有報布然後昨天公共工程委員會的主委就說要提高到1300億元那是怎麼樣呢先斬後奏嗎還沒有報布然後公共工程委員會就對外說了所以部長就要認賬囉認賬然後就要送到立法院立法院就給你認賬再繼續追加嗎"},{"start":19783.601,"end":19784.301,"text":"預計什麼時候會報佈?什麼時候會送院?"},{"start":19812.297,"end":19837.562,"text":"這個要經過部裏面審查然後到所議院裏面最後應該還是會經過公共城委員會的審查所以後面還有一些程序看起來公共城委員會主委都幫你宣布啦另外請教你這第三次修正計畫除了總經費大幅提高比原來幾乎是翻倍成長之外請問一下在相關的年限完工的時間會不會再修正我們是不是還要遲遲的等"},{"start":19840.731,"end":19853.346,"text":"目前我們還是以115年第3回合下完工為目標現在目前還是這樣以那個為目標對就是他還沒有講出說有時程修正的事所以讓我們總經理再補充說明一下"},{"start":19853.996,"end":19870.287,"text":"是跟委員報告我們第三行下的相關工程都已經完成發包那目前我們跟廠商的工程契約是到115年的12月左右是完工的期限所以不是全部都發包了嗎那為什麼還要再漲這麼多呢"},{"start":19872.288,"end":19899.665,"text":"價格為什麼還要再增加都已經發包了嗎對因為發包的話我們在當時我們的發包裡面我們在契約裡面都有物價指數條款那因為如果物條變動太大那廠商如果沒有這個機制可能廠商連做都做不下去所以基本上這個部分是等於讓廠商所以意思是說頭洗下去了現在就受制於廠商不然說我不跟你做下去了又不知道延到民國幾年好啦因為時間的有限"},{"start":19902.066,"end":19922.119,"text":"所以我先只確定說你預計下個月是下個月要報布是吧還是這個月這個月這個月中這個月中會報布那到時候我再跟你們要資料知道整個第三次修正計畫的全貌謝謝王委員發言完畢現在請李博義委員發言"},{"start":19940.699,"end":19940.719,"text":"麥克風"},{"start":19943.345,"end":19944.865,"text":"請交通部部長王國材列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":19968.786,"end":19997.037,"text":"台積電到日本熊本那日本政府給了台積電有第一個場一千億的補助第二個場聽說是一千五百億台幣的補助那這個不算在日本政府他投入相關的這個交通建設包含水那包含道路那包含他們的鐵路的這些建設不包含喔好我們用一千億這個標準來看台積電即將到高雄南梓設廠"},{"start":19998.197,"end":20020.146,"text":"高雄男子社場面臨非常多重大的這些交通議題必須要趕快去開闢我剛才在國科會這邊已經針對我們這個男子交流道引道的部分希望國科會盡速加速那國科會這邊也給予正面的承諾那國科會這邊下來之後那希望交通部相關的這些作業也要趕快這78億的這個交流道引道"},{"start":20021.667,"end":20037.44,"text":"接下來就是有兩條包含台鐵的立體化包含高雄捷運子線的未來我想在這個交通委員會這邊來跟部裡面來做這個討論台鐵立體化他未來其實台積電會選擇在高雄"},{"start":20039.682,"end":20061.439,"text":"那對於這個高階的這些製程有一個想像就是未來針對台南跟高雄園區會有大量的交通運輸以前喔以前從高雄到台南這個交流道比如說仁德交流道好了大概從中正交流道到仁德交流道的往返40分鐘現在沒有一個小時到不了"},{"start":20062.139,"end":20079.84,"text":"再加上未來的這些大量的運輸車輛我想是絕對不夠的所以我們需要這個交流道引道之外那台鐵未來他也可能可以對開到台積電廠區的對開車也就是從台南的園區到高雄的園區可能可以規劃這個相關的區間車所以"},{"start":20082.423,"end":20100.849,"text":"我們目前台鐵立體化的這個可信性評估裡面市政府有建議在台積電的園區外面多設兩個站一個站是在台積電園區外面那另外一個站會是在部長你這邊可不可以做一個說明"},{"start":20101.849,"end":20127.558,"text":"我跟委員報告現在大概兩個第一個現階段現階段因為那個油廠國小紅線油廠國小是就在台積電設廠那附近所以短期我們的建議是短期跟中期短期就是他從油廠國小搭到橋頭站橋頭站是跟鐵路共站他就到南科的火車站這短期那第二個就是這個鐵路"},{"start":20130.459,"end":20142.803,"text":"現在是談高價高價跟立體化的價格我那天有在院長的這個施政報告裡面有提出來大概差了400億以上大概差了3倍到4倍高價大概是160現在估起來是160億如果是地下化的話可能會超過500億到600億之間"},{"start":20152.006,"end":20170.392,"text":"所以李委員所提的第二階段就是現在我們補助高雄市政府在做高價北延的這個可行性他提出來現在是兩個站這兩個站都會服務到這一個我們台積電的這個位置那我們是想這樣就是說他高價的時候就把這兩個站放進去是"},{"start":20171.152,"end":20191.596,"text":"﹗"},{"start":20191.596,"end":20208.439,"text":"﹗"},{"start":20209.16,"end":20217.371,"text":"半導體區間車 疏解掉高雄跟臺南之間非常大的交通流量 這個也請鐵道局這邊早一點來做這個相關的規劃接下來捷運紫線 捷運紫線"},{"start":20226.343,"end":20240.131,"text":"連接捷運黃線高雄醫學院接到高雄榮總進入左營高鐵從左營高鐵進入右艙高鐵附近還是我們的台積電廠區進入右艙到高雄大學連接橋頭科學園區"},{"start":20240.811,"end":20258.78,"text":"．"},{"start":20258.94,"end":20273.881,"text":"我想高雄的捷運在因為以前在縣市合併以前這個紅橘兩線然後包括黃線等等的現在北邊這個整個廊帶就是說直線的沿線的這些廊帶都發展的也非常密集"},{"start":20274.662,"end":20274.822,"text":"華航總經理"},{"start":20293.684,"end":20308.274,"text":"呃,你邊聽我邊講齁,邊走我邊講齁,在這個疫情...董事長,你好在疫情開始之前齁,那當然華航也經過很辛苦的疫情的過程齁但我們也知道,其實華航我們的貨運還是賺錢"},{"start":20311.775,"end":20327.315,"text":"我們也知道很多貨運的客機還沒改回,客運的客機可能營利為主之外,高雄機場其實有非常大的聲音,南部鄉親有非常大的聲音,就是我們的飛機永遠都是321,永遠都是小飛機"},{"start":20328.436,"end":20349.361,"text":"甚至我也在期間過程裡面也透過當時的我們現在的召委當然我還擔任市議員的時候也透過當我們現在的召委李昆哲委員跟華航反映過很多次那我們的雙走道飛機進駐小港機場來服務南部鄉親的這個計畫有沒有改變什麼事要落實請董事長來做一個回應"},{"start":20349.801,"end":20350.642,"text":"三百330現在桃園沒有在飛嗎?"},{"start":20365.945,"end":20366.125,"text":"王國材列席報告"},{"start":20390.858,"end":20393.04,"text":"李委員發言完畢現在請楊瓊英委員發言請王部長"},{"start":20423.483,"end":20448.092,"text":"我們國醫中心交流道GA74的閘道那這個我要特別感謝施工單位我們持續在關心這個進度而且也暫許那因為呢這個案子呢我們從開始規劃到完成這個發包到施工過程當中我們地方的民眾非常的期待"},{"start":20448.692,"end":20468.482,"text":"那相對的在施工的時候呢因為塞車、堵車那也讓民眾有些不方便但是我們台中的民眾是超水準的知道這個重要工程大家全力配合那非常的期待那請問到目前為止我們的進度"},{"start":20471.593,"end":20495.062,"text":"目前進度應該到9393左右了對那我們什麼時候完工告訴我們是五月那可不可以這個時間來確認因為我們現在講是說他工程完之後我們要經過一些勘驗原則上應該我們朝下五月底以前五月底就可以正式前採通車我們盡量努力啦那努力是什麼意思是會不會達到"},{"start":20496.275,"end":20509.691,"text":"因為這裡面好到5月的話現在目前還有一些小的地方要處理他可能有一些收尾我在猜應該不會超過6月初,不會超過6月初你身邊那個大將是超厲害的"},{"start":20513.696,"end":20525.652,"text":"他講五月底你給他講六月初五月底、五月三十一跟六月一號因為我們地方很期待所以我也希望照著這個時程來規劃讓他完成因為這個對於我們地方上來講很重要"},{"start":20531.48,"end":20549.057,"text":"我們現在國道是要接過來然後再接74線所有回堵都是在我們的崇德路、中山路過來就是我們的中青路然後過來連廣福路現在也都斷了大家會往前一個地方所以尤其是我們中青交流道"},{"start":20550.519,"end":20563.939,"text":"這個會做這個工程有地方我們地方事生大家都認識到這個工程務必要做對我們地方來講很重要所以我也期勉我們也就在這個5月底的時間可以如期把它完成"},{"start":20564.74,"end":20582.109,"text":"當然這個爐子你身邊這個大將我是給予按個讚真的是非常感謝帶著這個施工團隊非常的用心而且在整個的實用跟美觀方面的公路來講是我們是給予肯定所以謝謝那接下來那個"},{"start":20585.35,"end":20610.596,"text":"部長我們那個清泉崗的航線本來說叫做三條線那時候我們去會刊的時候我們的旅遊業、觀光業我們相關的就因為這個三條線讓我們傷腦筋那當然我們也不免苛責啦不能苛責就是說我們趕快怎麼樣增加兩個議題第一個到金門的航線一味難求我們可以再怎麼樣去增加"},{"start":20611.596,"end":20611.936,"text":"請做說明"},{"start":20631.616,"end":20632.557,"text":"你再把那個調整的"},{"start":20651.684,"end":20658.988,"text":"國際航線部門現在因為那個新宇他現在想要以這裡為home base所以他現在有很多,他現在3月很多就是包機開始飛了,現在應該是原來14個航點在今年會到13是吧?"},{"start":20672.858,"end":20673.5,"text":"有哪些行點?沖繩、還有哪裡?對"},{"start":20684.915,"end":20700.724,"text":"定期航線的話就有河內胡志明港澳還有這個南京線港然後後續那個新宇他也會現在先用包機飛高松日本高松那大概他現在已經在申請定期航線了什麼時候可以開始預計在下半年應該可以轉定期"},{"start":20702.405,"end":20703.286,"text":"新宇、飛也會開澳門的航線"},{"start":20718.214,"end":20740.135,"text":"然後再包含這個因為中部地區我們去會館的時候考察我們大家都知道這個是最好的點我們也希望中進中出帶動地方的繁榮而且他是迫切需要尤其你的縣港那個還是不夠啦需求度太大其他還有一些仁川、釜山、冀州等等還有很多包機"},{"start":20740.936,"end":20757.473,"text":"你把那個是包機不是定行你把包機跟定行那詳細資料再給委員來本期再跟你討論一個議題也就是兒童的安全我們知道呢2018年開始你說因為周濱的學校附近部長那麼我們線數是這個30線在30公里"},{"start":20762.017,"end":20781.994,"text":"那2022年到2023年你們有提了一個校園周邊交通安全的改善計畫那到目前為止本市了解是收了一百來個案子那大概是大概六成左右那但是我們最近也發現兒童被撞啊在這個路上很難過"},{"start":20782.995,"end":20799.946,"text":"因為兒童是大家的寶貝啊尤其一個家庭發生了這個事情這個是真的是整個家庭就亂掉所以本席要跟你討論的也就是說針對於校園周邊人行空間改善你們雖然有一個參考指引"},{"start":20800.626,"end":20823.021,"text":"但是呢到目前為止有了錢那麼現在所收的案子大概只有6成但是明明白白我們的社會上面還是有這些問題要怎麼樣去加強來執行之呢在學校的附近學校的那個附近我們既然就已經有限數是30那你要怎麼樣去落實請教部長"},{"start":20824.222,"end":20845.169,"text":"第一個,校園周邊在過去兩年做的確因為學校做大改變有它的困難事實上這個也是地方往上申請的然後我們現在接下來我們從今年開始有改善人形設施的計畫它是四年四百億"},{"start":20846.529,"end":20854.594,"text":"今年各縣市政府總共799處 這個也要做一些改善部長你有升級版表示這個問題的重要性但是你第1期只有6層所以你要警惕要怎麼樣去落實因為我就要給你一個數字"},{"start":20869.682,"end":20882.786,"text":"一就是這個12歲以下的兒童呢因為交通傷亡的有4.8萬人那更在112名的這個孩童就當神仙了我們很難過所以換句話說你從2023年跟"},{"start":20886.147,"end":20903.456,"text":"比起前4年它是不減反增那在這樣的一個情況之下每日的平均傷亡的從26人到32人所以它是增加的你這個方案本席具體要求你必須要去落實"},{"start":20904.477,"end":20925.201,"text":"怎麼樣去宣導怎麼樣去落實才能夠保障我們兒童的安全啊尤其在校園的周邊啊謝謝楊委員我們時間已經超過兩分鐘時間已經超過兩分鐘一地方也要申請啦當然所以你們要去請啊好不好一起加油好不好謝謝謝謝楊委員發言完畢現在請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":20948.761,"end":20950.482,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長請部長"},{"start":20983.186,"end":20995.931,"text":"好今天先跟這個部長談這個蘇花庵臺九縣蘇花庵的計畫這個環境部在112年12月6號將這個環境環評的意見送給這個交通部這個部分你們預計什麼時候可以再送"},{"start":21013.402,"end":21013.642,"text":"花東鐵路雙軌化"},{"start":21038.719,"end":21067.06,"text":"這個已經110年4月8日合定那現在在進行中這個進行中的一個過程按照你們的報告有提到整個現在你完工的一段嘛望榮到南平那一段完工"},{"start":21068.956,"end":21094.614,"text":"你們現在施工的時候有沒有考量到是不是從花蓮往台東往資本這樣的一個方向我的建議因為這個時間很長怎麼樣能夠從花蓮到往南的一個情況之下先完成了就可以就雙軌了那樣的一個規劃"},{"start":21096.018,"end":21116.714,"text":"分段通車的意思是吧對啊對啊對啊就能夠往這個方向現在是朝這方面沒錯就是坐完一段就會通對對這樣的話就可以但是如果你們中間是中間譬如說以現在來講啊汪榮到南屏那是中間以就花蓮來講啊花蓮來講是中間啊怎麼樣再從花蓮車站"},{"start":21121.465,"end":21125.851,"text":"目前是這樣沒錯﹖我請局長再幫你補充﹖做完就是馬上增加容量就通了這樣﹖"},{"start":21138.429,"end":21158.595,"text":"對,但是如果你現在是望榮到南平,但是南平到花蓮之間還沒有啊,那就很難去做到花蓮之間現在還涉及到我知道那個高架,吉安高架因為配合高架的部分會最後啦,就是配合高架的部分,因為它起程相對會比較長"},{"start":21159.975,"end":21183.634,"text":"那其他部分我們整個這個雙軌部分會分4個階段來做陸續的調整我知道這個部分你原來的一個規劃看看能不能做調整就是說這樣的進行就會比較因為一定是要從臺北到花蓮花蓮再往南所以這個部分你們盡量往這個方向我們再來檢討"},{"start":21185.857,"end":21201.1,"text":"這是這個我們花東鐵路雙軌化的部分那我們這個剛有談到我們接著談這個花東塊花東塊這個是部長在去年10月19號報導的一個就是說蘇花安"},{"start":21217.11,"end":21218.052,"text":"花東快明年2月"},{"start":21225.595,"end":21252.552,"text":"完成可行性評估當初有這樣說嗎花東快現在應該是8月因為花東快花聯的說明會辦完了因為3月份在辦台東的說明會那台東說明會辦完以後因為要收集大家的意見再做一些整理所以預計是8月份我們會完成這個可行性報告完成現在花聯的說明會辦完現在正"},{"start":21255.194,"end":21278.544,"text":"做台東的說明會結束以後會把意見加到我們的可行性報告裡面然後往再來做環評跟下一階段的宗教是我的建議就是說花東快的可行性評估要加快8月8月要加快因為我們就從我們就講台台灣好了台灣"},{"start":21280.612,"end":21290.979,"text":"以花東快跟這個蘇花我們就講蘇花公路或是說台北回鐵路或者是說這個南回鐵路"},{"start":21292.383,"end":21292.403,"text":"好"},{"start":21322.401,"end":21347.853,"text":"我們先看這個就請那個杜董事長杜董事長我在談的是臺北臺北市、新北市、桃園、臺中、臺南、高雄、宜蘭、新竹、苗栗、彰化地方政府的敬老卡原住民都降低55歲"},{"start":21349.775,"end":21376.278,"text":"但是他們去買火車票的時候就沒有辦法用那個監牢卡還看是原住民拿身分證出來這樣不一致全國不一致尤其是北部做捷運OK做公車OK然後去坐七間車台鐵的七間車就不OK所以這個部分"},{"start":21378.967,"end":21405.881,"text":"每次就是說中央的法律還沒改其實齁我們看這個鐵路運送規則第9條法定優待票他就要講法定優待票地方政府的敬老卡也是法定啊他也是定了他的規則因為法定並沒有講法律啦法定優待票所以有空間啊"},{"start":21407.216,"end":21407.796,"text":"謝謝政委員發言完畢現在"},{"start":21435.935,"end":21449.324,"text":"請牛許廷委員發言好 謝謝主席 這個交通部長有請 謝謝請王部長你好你好來 慢慢來 沒關係"},{"start":21468.113,"end":21495.735,"text":"部長辛苦了大家都關心交通的議題本期當然也是不例外所以今天來提出交通部的一些相關的政策的意見希望跟部長做一些探討我們先從個案開始說起部長這個1200是好政策很多選區的選民我們桃園是通勤的重鎮往返雙北的人數的數量是非常多那1200上任之後其實大家覺得說這個看到了政府在改善交通問題的誠意"},{"start":21496.796,"end":21515.792,"text":"可是我們不希望這樣子的一個政策為德不足有了大額的票價補貼之後你相關的配套措施要跟著上來1200上路之後大家重新開始期待用國道客運去替代這個私家車來做北逃的這個通勤但是上路之後"},{"start":21516.292,"end":21538.3,"text":"我們各個國道客運的營運狀況卻非常的糟糕這個我舉一個例子比如說南崁的5203A過去由長榮的客運來做營運那其實他去年他就已經說要退場了大家商量他待死延死最後延到今年的2月那2月底之後我們就再進一步去要求後面的配套措施那也跟部裡面就做了溝通跟商量"},{"start":21539.801,"end":21564.794,"text":"講說國光、亞通還有後來有多一家義姐會來接手嘛對不對我們本來很期待我們也很願意相信交通部跟公路局解決這個問題的能力我們也很高興的跟鄉親宣布說這個帶死的狀況暫時可以緩解大家的燃眉之急可是這個現實總是很骨感因為3月1號開始馬上出現說好的48班直接變成38班而且離峰不是離峰更正昏峰從"},{"start":21566.215,"end":21589.967,"text":"台北回來的時候6點40下一班進來是8點40這個是完全沒有辦法輸運這個雙北跟南侃之間通勤的人流那我們辦公室在處理這個個案的時候要求提出說明那速度其實是有一點慢的我要提醒部長這一部分要上緊發條然後我們也要求如果你真的基於班次調度一些困難的話你總要預先跟人民做溝通吧"},{"start":21590.487,"end":21607.49,"text":"你不能說你很辛苦我知道你很辛苦可是人民如果沒有辦法第一時間知道政策的這個變化或者是執行的疏漏的時候那就會出現民怨嘛要不是我們辦公室當初去安排然後要求你當天早上去跟那些排隊的通勤族說明這個民怨會更大"},{"start":21608.07,"end":21622.128,"text":"我們不希望接下來會一直在處理這樣的事情請部理上緊發條那不只是5203A的問題5203A的問題今天開始看起來是恢復正常48班到位這一點是至少有一點改善可是問題是5203A完了之後換5250A5250B出現狀況開始拖班"},{"start":21627.194,"end":21655.533,"text":"為什麼脫班呢後來也是問了一大圈問了半天才知道啊原來這個什麼司機離職啊其實也都是老問題欸你不能說這個地方的問題處理完了下個地方火又燒起來不能一直在處理個案的問題啦而且不只是往返與南侃往返桃園也一樣比如說9005、9023其實都是大排長龍很多人在用可是業者也都興趣缺缺那有些這個班制的調度也不是很精準比如說這個9005的回程"},{"start":21657.595,"end":21673.887,"text":"市府轉運站發車下一站就是港前差一站而已可是在港前的桃園鄉親回家排隊等最久那天寒流不到10度在寒風中等兩個半小時才能上車這個其實是車班調度有更細膩可以改善的地方"},{"start":21675.608,"end":21698.073,"text":"9023、90005在去的時候也一樣住在桃園經國轉運站我住轉運站旁邊捏卻因為離發車中心太遠首站變末站結果住轉運站最近的人竟然上不了車凡此種種都表示我們國道客運在桃園的這個執行細節有非常多可以修改的地方這些個案我希望交通部趕快解決部長可以提出解決方案嗎?好"},{"start":21698.593,"end":21722.293,"text":"我做一個原則的那個就基本上第一個不中斷這是最基本的基本不中斷一定要的嗎那的確在國道客運他因為有這個後來來接手待死不穩定這個現象我這個也有事實上我跟這個局長談過很多次這個是因為他窮盡這個力量去把這個保持這樣的服務品質"},{"start":21723.354,"end":21738.29,"text":"那剛才談的這幾個個案的問題我是不是請那個局長回答一下我時間有些很盡快好不好個案跟同案 個案的部分的話就是說如果說他的這個公司的班制或是車輛駕駛的這個部分因為有些部分或許我們找其他的公司或是遊覽車也來協助啦"},{"start":21739.611,"end":21766.257,"text":"我現在意思就是這樣如果說有班次接不上路線可以調整我們就調整有一些班次比如說9005有一些可以從港前發我覺得這是可以思考的有一些可以從京國轉運站發其實就可以解決調度班次的問題那班次不足的部分比如說5250A如果他繼續拖班那就找其他業者一起來經營我覺得也都OK好不好這些東西我剛剛提到我們會後討論好不好通案我們也有處理通案的話就是說增加價值通案我現在要講來"},{"start":21768.437,"end":21789.64,"text":"通案問題三個方向,我覺得我們這個任期應該會討論這件事,討論滿久的從個案看通案,如果通案的問題沒有解決,那個案的問題將層出不窮通案的問題三個,我相信也是老生常談,第一個叫營運困境我們17年沒有檢討運價票價,18項成本固定在那個地方那什麼時候會有第一次的調整,請部長回答"},{"start":21791.369,"end":21816.965,"text":"票價的部分嗎?票價他現在已經提出來全年會提了嘛 什麼時候審過 大家很關心這個事啦全年會在我們公路局這邊已經審了 給他意見 他修正回來了 那我們這邊會報交通部對啊報部 所以我問部長大概什麼時候會調整完 因為這個關乎客運業者會不會願不願意回頭進場 那個公路局送上來 我們盡快來核准有沒有具體的時間表 一個月兩個月或什麼樣 可以嗎"},{"start":21819.946,"end":21836.122,"text":"因為競速啦,因為他還沒送到我這邊齁,啊我們內部也有一個審查的程序齁沒關係,現在請公路局會後再來跟我做報告,跟我確認時間表齁第二個,司機缺員的問題啊當然你們有提出一些相關的計畫但從前年開始,前年喔,到今年的1月目標4800,只來了1414,達成率不到30%"},{"start":21839.685,"end":21854.291,"text":"那表示這個計畫還有可以精進跟修改的地方另外也表示不只是薪資的問題客運業者的營運上班的工作環境是不好的能不能針對工作環境的優化跟改善去修改部分的規則這個我也希望交通部做一個通盤檢討可以嗎"},{"start":21856.092,"end":21874.7,"text":"這個一樣請公路局會後做報告第三個我要提一個概念我們為了要讓路線調度的更順暢這個也不只是限於國道客運市區公車也需要公車的駐車場站但這個駐車場站現在切身未明現在都市計畫裡面它到底是屬於什麼樣的用地我希望交通部跟內政部做一個會商"},{"start":21875.76,"end":21897.035,"text":"讓不管是中央政府或是地方政府可以有明確的調度場站讓多一點的場站讓路線調度靈活去提升客運的品質這一部分我也希望交通部會後提供相關的規劃跟檢討方向,可以嗎?好,這一部分你願意牽涉都市計畫跟地方政府做對,總要開始好不好,我們花一點時間做好不好麻煩這件事麻煩部長,我們會持續追蹤謝謝你喔,謝謝也謝謝主席,謝謝謝謝你委員發言完畢現在請林立軍委員"},{"start":21903.94,"end":21910.943,"text":"林立軍委員．林立軍委員不在．現在請羅志強委員發言主席有請部長請部長羅委員好部長好"},{"start":21934.24,"end":21953.99,"text":"請問您跟現在所有閣員都算是看守內閣沒錯吧沒錯對不對所以你會不會做到520之後你自己也不知道嗎不曉得對但是倒是行政院我們的陳建仁院長已經多次表示他不會留任所以他只會做到520而已我想請教您"},{"start":21955.629,"end":21978.674,"text":"您宣布6月1日以後禁止出團到大陸去我想請教6月1日以後是誰是哪個政府要上任新的政府、新的總統、新的院長都上來可能新的部長會上來那我想問您你這個6月1日的這個禁團令有沒有跟我們的賴總統當選人商量過"},{"start":21981.607,"end":22007.457,"text":"是他同意的還是他指示的還是跟他溝通的從來沒有跟賴副總統但是我們的是現在的這個團隊裡面的跨部會討論的結果所以完全沒跟我們賴總統當選人討論過這個事我不知道那個他們其他的有沒有跟他報告但是我這邊沒有跟副總統報告過部長"},{"start":22009.895,"end":22021.082,"text":"你都說你是看守那個結果進團這麼重要的事情你不用跟新政府的總統未來的總統打招呼嗎我們院長也說過啊看守政府不做"},{"start":22029.898,"end":22057.29,"text":"會去傷害我們未來政府決策權的一個重大決策這個也沒有傷害啊就是說至少在520那你起碼要跟他溝通吧可是現在我們的行政流程沒有說部長所以我跟你講我幫賴副總統賴總統來跟您說啦今天你許了一個政策的開始日期不是你這看守內閣的時候那你為什麼不講說是今天5月19號呢"},{"start":22059.668,"end":22077.867,"text":"為什麼不5月19日以後進團呢你5月19日進團我還覺得說你稍微有尬質一點啊你還在你任內進團啊那為什麼是6月1日很奇怪6月1日又不是你當家也不是陳建仁當家甚至不是蔡英文當家結果你今天竟然跟我講"},{"start":22079.088,"end":22101.561,"text":"你根本不打算理賴賴清德總統當選人你不是太不尊重賴清德了不是那個羅委員你你也在政府當過你第一個不尊重賴清德第二個我跟你講現在流程沒有跟副總統我要告訴你喔我要告訴你第二個我要跟您說你去年11月宣布要解禁大陸旅遊的禁團令嘛對不對是是確定很多業者當時也不敢自信啦坦白講"},{"start":22106.601,"end":22125.943,"text":"但是想一想政府說嘛一言九鼎嘛 對不對軍無戏言、官無戏言、部長無戏言啊 對不對就相信你啦結果才3個月業者開始染客你現在跟我講說6月1號你要進團相信你的都是笨蛋"},{"start":22127.236,"end":22142.966,"text":"相信你的旅行業者都是笨蛋你不要跟我講他們未來部長你不會不知道旅行社運作的狀況吧他們要開始籌備整個包括下行銷、下聯繫、下據點、下預算三個月只是組團吶"},{"start":22148.991,"end":22176.171,"text":"前期溝通跟籌備工作不只3個月吧所以我告訴你你選前政策開支票選後政策翻臉你教大家可以如何適從呢?部長我在請教您齁疫情之前對啊暫時啦暫時啦我知道你今天有講什麼善意表現部長我告訴你你講的話沒人相信的兩個原因你知道為什麼嗎?"},{"start":22177.725,"end":22191.013,"text":"已經騙了一次嘛人可以被騙第一次可以被騙第二次嗎我都過去一陣子相信你已經跟我騙他一次更重要的是部長你現在承諾有任何意義嗎"},{"start":22193.274,"end":22202.086,"text":"有意義嗎?你520之後是你嗎?你連賴清德你都不重視、不尊重!也不跟他商量、不跟他報告!6月1日以後!6月1日!我問你嘛!我問你嘛!我問你嘛!"},{"start":22211.424,"end":22228.38,"text":"這個看他的賽意表現絕併要不要開團你有跟賴清德總統當選商量過嗎我已經講過很多次齁你有跟賴清德總統當選商量過嗎不是我現沒有嘛我的老闆是院長沒有嘛總統啊我們一般的程序沒有在跟副總統報告這件事那未來總統是誰啊"},{"start":22230.001,"end":22238.687,"text":"所以你的善意表現就可以開團也是你空口白話啊因為你沒有跟未來的總統商量啊未來的院長是誰提名?誰提名?而未來的部長是誰決定?對啊"},{"start":22247.233,"end":22270.746,"text":"那你現在講6月1號看善意表現不是也是空口白話嗎我在跟部長請教你知道在疫情之前兩岸開放探親之後開始可以觀光以後你知道政府什麼時候曾經明令出團到大陸去有沒有過探親開放以後"},{"start":22274.864,"end":22298.356,"text":"民令禁止出團到大陸很好 你知道為什麼沒有嗎疫情期間也不是民令禁止啊疫情期間是有疫情的特殊考量啊是協調業者啊那我想請問你為什麼過去不做這件事啊你說兩岸的惡意那我想請問兩岸惡意也不是今天有惡意啊"},{"start":22299.485,"end":22314.329,"text":"因為我們中華民國憲法保障人民有遷徙的自由你光我跟你講遷徙的自由也包括今天我們旅行的自由旅行的形態也是遷徙自由之一我告訴你你破壞了過去"},{"start":22318.752,"end":22330.419,"text":"很多年我們基本尊重我們的台灣人民旅行的、行事的自由起碼你剛剛講過去沒有,現在只有你的任內有嘛謝謝您,以上好,謝謝董委員發言完畢現在請陳雪生委員陳雪生委員陳雪生委員不在現在請陳冠廷委員發言"},{"start":22355.273,"end":22356.114,"text":"王國材列席報告"},{"start":22379.349,"end":22404.008,"text":"交通部爭取民雄的鐵路高架化那2023年的5月行政院已經核定總合規劃案那已經在2023年12月舉辦動土典禮那據本席的瞭解整個民雄鐵路高架化是預計在民國120年的通車這個時程有沒有變動沒有變動那我們先期工程上次已經動工了我們就讓到現在的這個期程來進行"},{"start":22405.482,"end":22432.1,"text":"謝謝部長因為這是一個重大交通建設那我想不僅是民雄鄉我們嘉義縣的是最大的鄉鎮那很多人都在期待所以說去年12月動土的部分那是鐵路高架化的先期工程那主要是用民雄車站的臨時月台臨時軌是工程範圍那用地權是屬於台鐵公司的用地範圍內不涉及用地徵收那這個先期工程的部分預計何時完成"},{"start":22434.326,"end":22438.321,"text":"工程部我們在今年中會完成今年中會完成嗎?謝謝"},{"start":22439.878,"end":22465.399,"text":"因為這是我們重大建設那民眾很關心他的進程包含地方的這些首長還有一些縣市我們的這個嘉義縣的一些議員都有在關注這件事情那我們是希望說他能夠盡快盡速如此的完成那我們更關心的一個部分就是說鐵路高架工程跟高架車站工程的部分那預計他這個施工要幾年啊"},{"start":22466.929,"end":22488.698,"text":"全部嗎?對這整個我們預計8年後通車預計8年後通車那其實在這個期間點我們有點擔心就是說街區的交通問題要怎麼樣疏導?你們有沒有預先跟地方政府做協調?我想這部我們在施工計畫之前都會報縣政府完成相關的交通維持的這些計畫也會跟地方做相關的說明跟溝通"},{"start":22489.338,"end":22503.272,"text":"包含鄉跟村都會有直接的這些聯繫因為我們不希望有這個交通的黑暗期我們現在工程處跟民從鄉就有在做相關的一些施工上的溝通跟說明"},{"start":22504.013,"end":22525.036,"text":"其實因為在任何的重大交通建設的這個新建的過程中那交通的黑暗期會導致很大的民眾的反彈所以這部分除了溝通之外包含這個說明會跟民眾說何時影響範圍影響時間那預計的這個替代方案是什麼我希望交通部的官員都能夠"},{"start":22525.737,"end":22543.006,"text":"更加積極的方式來去說明給我們的民眾聽因為民眾一方面是期待有重大建設但一方面也不希望說在這個建設的這個時程中影響到他們的通學通勤所以這個部分你們有信心能夠把衝擊降到最低嗎?"},{"start":22544.239,"end":22572.279,"text":"跟委員報告我們在施工前一定會跟地方來做這樣的溝通跟說明也會把所有的衝擊呢按照施工的最小的必要性來做影響的最小層面的一個影響非常感謝我們希望這個一定要做好因為民眾的反應是會比較我們是非常重視的我們會來努力那體育高架之後高架橋下面的空間有沒有作為什麼樣的具體規劃"},{"start":22574.055,"end":22600.247,"text":"目前的話照過去的一般做法是會按跟地方政府來做溝通那現在有關民雄的這個高架地下的部分還沒有進行相關的溝通跟規劃好那我希望說未來交通部可以先來我們辦公室來跟我們分享一下你們的看法那我們其實是有一些想法那其實不是只有交通部而已可能會需要跨部會來一起去合作把那個釋出來的空間做最有效的運用"},{"start":22601.267,"end":22623.059,"text":"接下來我們要提到的是梅山纜車部長現在應該知道我們太平雲梯是我們臺灣海拔最高的景觀吊橋那遊客人數也是蠻多的我們也非常歡迎遊客來到我們太平地區可是交通的負荷也蠻大的現在很明顯的根據我們一些地方的這一些民意代表都有反映已經超過162線的負荷"},{"start":22624.62,"end":22644.421,"text":"所以有地方的鄉親是建議可以交通部來去設置梅山纜車那他的路線可以從公園到老街那用纜車來去串聯太平雲梯除了是做交通上面的緩解之外也有觀光上面的意義我想針對相關的建制案我們之前有請交通部來去做評估不知道交通部現在評估的狀況如何"},{"start":22649.764,"end":22668.297,"text":"跟委員報告一下,確實陳委員有邀集我們相關單位,那這個部分是我們阿里山管理處,確實洪處長也參與。那麼我們參與以後呢,我們其實因為還是要了解一下嘉義縣政府的看法。"},{"start":22670.699,"end":22683.929,"text":"時間有限我們就直接針對我們這個人本交通的設施來做質詢部長你現在滿意國內的行人穿越線和屁股島的設置的狀況嗎?不滿意,非常不滿意部長你們認為25公尺長的行人穿越線大概需要幾秒鐘走完?"},{"start":22685.615,"end":22714.264,"text":"二十五公尺應該是沒關係大概的數字就好了應該是三十秒吧那你們通常是設置幾秒鐘給新年總那我之所以問這個問題是因為其實包含我自己有些時候都會連我們這種甚至還是中年的這個狀況都不見得能夠走完那如果帶我的小朋友年輕人不是中年年輕人中年人我其實已經有數數了"},{"start":22716.203,"end":22719.307,"text":"我們希望不管是交通的方式還是以人本交通為主那盡量是能夠配合這個新人的部分"},{"start":22734.224,"end":22761.057,"text":"那其他的部分未來我們也會請交通部來針對人本交通設施包含這一個新能穿越道中的這個庇護島的設施我們是希望能夠有一些改進的一些做法那不要讓我們這邊背上新能地域的罵名那時間到這邊所以還是希望這個部分請交通部現在我們有四年四百億就會做這個設施那我覺得嘉義縣政府這邊可以盡量來申請我們的協助我們會"},{"start":22762.157,"end":22788.934,"text":"告知下一線組請他們盡量申請謝謝陳委員現在請林月琴委員發言有請我們的交通部部長請王部長"},{"start":22795.372,"end":22808.684,"text":"部長,台灣在少子化的年代,我覺得當孩子越生越少的時候,一個孩子都不能少。我也因為這樣子,一直很長期關心我們的兒少。"},{"start":22809.352,"end":22834.151,"text":"所以今天就要來談一個問題就是說部長這幾天應該看到很多很令人難過的消息上個禮拜無照駕駛導致三話三明的國小孩童受到傷害這幾天又出現了桃園無照駕駛遭酒駕撞擊死亡一個17歲的孩子就這樣離開我們了我們辦公室在搜尋網路的時候光這兩個禮拜以來"},{"start":22835.572,"end":22845.184,"text":"就已經將近有5起的5兆價值的事故上新聞這上新聞大家都嚴重沒上新聞的不知道又有多少來下一頁"},{"start":22846.952,"end":22867.882,"text":"所以從張嬅三姊弟被無照駕駛的一個駕駛者撞傷後我很好奇的就是到底台灣無照駕駛到底有多嚴重所以我請我們辦公室同仁找過去這5年來的案件死傷人數也就是違規事故造成所有當事人死亡那運營所呢事實上針對於一名我們的"},{"start":22868.702,"end":22871.645,"text":"一百八十四億元一百八十四億元來下一張也就是如果是酒價呢"},{"start":22887.977,"end":22888.157,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22913.161,"end":22935.343,"text":"我先花多少錢那個我請市長那個我覺得無照駕駛有幾個剛剛也看到彰化這是高齡啦高齡的部分另外有一票有一些是這個高中生高中生去我想說在在整個這個無照駕駛所造成的這個傷害的確非常的嚴重啦"},{"start":22936.184,"end":22952.172,"text":"我個人是覺得當然是職網面一定要做另外一個是這個包括老人駕照的這些管理我覺得因為過去我們的確在75歲換照的當時有一個通融期以上那個不處理等等的這些課題"},{"start":22954.193,"end":22964.761,"text":"高中生在教育單位裡面的要求等等的我想說這個部分這個我們會持續來重視這個部分因為最近很多的嚴重的這個車禍事態"},{"start":22984.114,"end":23000.252,"text":"除了罰款以外這跟臺灣還蠻相近可是他們的罰款也比我們高可是他還有一些刑法上處罰甚至新加坡跟美國都有扣車的規定還有連帶處罰的一些相關的一個措施"},{"start":23000.872,"end":23025.923,"text":"來下一頁那日本呢事實上也是過去他在10多年前因為曾經因為討論過無照的問題當時他們眾議院一直認為說這會議記錄跟修法的整個都顯示這兩者的死亡死亡的狀態事實上是一樣的甚至無照價值還更為嚴重所以他們把罰則整個都拉平了結果"},{"start":23026.833,"end":23027.714,"text":"你知道這兩者有所差異嗎?"},{"start":23042.731,"end":23061.17,"text":"既然這個成本事實上有這麼大的差異不知道對於這一塊我出乎感覺應該是酒駕會比較高然後但是我沒有這個數據我真的要請部長好好的去關注如果無照駕駛跟酒駕我們現在推算出來受傷死亡的量體如果橫比的話"},{"start":23061.718,"end":23083.366,"text":"他們相差有5倍之多的話我認為無照駕駛真的要去關注尤其未成年無照駕駛所以可以看到我們不管是汽車跟機車在我們的標準化的一個傷亡率跟受傷無照駕駛都顯示的事實上是高出酒駕非常的多來下一頁"},{"start":23086.196,"end":23097.966,"text":"我們的相關的措施這是我跟交通部所知的那個相關的裁罰數據那針對無照駕駛呢事實上取締的確你的取締量逐年上升"},{"start":23098.513,"end":23127.337,"text":"可是在修法過罰金也增加了現在我們增加到兩萬四可是效果不大我們的連帶處罰我們有落實這個規定嗎?看起來沒有像一致保管車輛數我們查不到資料那吊扣牌照跟駕照的話可以看到這個數據都偏低像110年大概就只有0.8的無照駕駛他的車輛所有人會有連帶處罰我們剛剛提過就日本做了很多措施或其他國家"},{"start":23127.737,"end":23144.433,"text":"但是我們似乎做的這部分事實上是不夠多的來下一頁那國內是臺灣酒駕房制社會關懷協會他就說扣車是最有效的可是我們扣車剛剛可以看到那個比例上並不高在下一頁所以在這邊"},{"start":23145.919,"end":23146.199,"text":"委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的官員有我們的國民新總主委還有副主委施克和副主委以及高先貴副主委接下來還有這個"},{"start":1791.96,"end":1796.235,"text":"那麼我們現在就請共主委進行報告"},{"start":1803.827,"end":1804.788,"text":"全世界經濟成長率"},{"start":1825.16,"end":1847.838,"text":"全世界會比去年稍微低一點點但是對台灣來講的話反而是比較正向的那投資的部分跟民間消費的這個動能還是會持續那比較明顯的這個復甦態勢就是出口的部分那主要的原因是因為我們的這個存貨去化已經告一段落那另外還有人工智慧新興科技的產業蓬勃了一些需求跟發展"},{"start":1850.341,"end":1862.633,"text":"但是在這個情況之下還是有全世界有一些經濟商務風險我們可能要必須去關注的包括地緣政治衝突持續然後還有主要國家的這個貨幣政策可能不太確定等等相關因素"},{"start":1864.445,"end":1888.902,"text":"好,那物價的部分大家還是非常關注那前幾天這個主席總書已經修正了這個今年的這個物價預測大概來到了1.85那所以我們還是會持續的關注整個物價的一些動向那這個穩定物價小組持續會開會這是從副院長來做主持的那我們看看對象提出因應對策請看到下一頁"},{"start":1890.162,"end":1899.6,"text":"進取方式的部分所有的這個措施已經法規都已經大致完備那我們就持續觀察他的一些市場上的一些動向因應處"},{"start":1903.078,"end":1919.197,"text":"在這樣的背景之下我們大概施政的方向還是有四個主軸第一個是創新的經濟持續的來做一些發展第一個是永續跟區域均衡的這個經濟治理第三個大概就是人才的強化第四個是開放政府的精進"},{"start":1920.658,"end":1921.199,"text":"創新經濟創新經濟創新經濟創新經濟創新經濟創新經濟創新經濟創新經濟創新經濟創新經濟"},{"start":1942.195,"end":1957.547,"text":"會盡力的落實這個六大核心戰略產業的發展請看到下一頁另外一個是亞洲矽谷的部分那亞洲矽谷的部分前一陣子我們在行政委員會通過了亞系3.0的新進方案那主要就是在重點在於深層次AI的"},{"start":1958.147,"end":1958.347,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1972.985,"end":1990.216,"text":"請看到下一頁至於對於產業的創新資金的一些活水國家融資保證機制目前來講我們已經累積的保證的金額來到了85億左右融資的金額是100多億保證的金額是85億左右後續潛在的案子融資的金額可能還要100多億請看到下一頁"},{"start":2001.122,"end":2027.773,"text":"有關於近鄰行動戰略的部分我們的目標還是希望在2030年的部分可以讓它減少大概24%左右十二項的關鍵性戰略實際的在推動當中目前來講這項工作我們大概每兩個禮拜就會有一個跨部會的一些討論是由我跟張子敬政委兩個來做督導請看到下一頁"},{"start":2028.773,"end":2049.04,"text":"深化國際交流跟聯結的部分．這個主要是配合外交部跟經濟部．比如說21世紀貿易倡議．國發會負責的是聯合法制作業等等的一些情況．包括了臺英的貿易提升也好．或者是下一頁的歐洲鏈結也好．或APEC的參與"},{"start":2050.2,"end":2073.356,"text":"那第二大項主要是在落實區域的永續均衡發展的部分那去年整個公共建設的這個執行的金額是有達到了大概6500多億也就是執行率達到了96%那今年這個執行規模可能會來到了大概7800億而我們希望還是它的執行率可以達到95%以上"},{"start":2077.948,"end":2096.206,"text":"有關於前瞻基礎建設現在正在執行的是第4期我們已經開始籌編明年的第5期大概3月份就開始不僅是前瞻預設的籌編一般公件也開始要掀起作業的籌編才來得及巴院把預算送到立法院"},{"start":2098.909,"end":2109.483,"text":"有關於地方創生的部分經過這幾年的努力實際上在地或返鄉的青年反應非常熱烈所以我們也通過在行政委員會通過了3.0擴大他的實施方案"},{"start":2116.187,"end":2134.662,"text":"華東和離島的部分持續進行當中所以今年華東基金大概有26億離島基金大概將近9億的預算來支持地方的發展中益經濟的發展方向已經確定了國防會現在在針對於北核心跟中核心的相關的公有資產的活化持續的進行當中"},{"start":2139.164,"end":2155.812,"text":"人才的吸引還是我們最重要的重點除了專業人才之外還有留學生還有中階技術人力也是我們發展的重點在去年底我們成立了Talent Taiwan希望提供一站式的服務"},{"start":2158.272,"end":2181.277,"text":"開放政府的部分現在第一期的開放政府大概在今年就會屆期那第一期的部分我們也有委託這個國際的獨立研究機構來評比我們這開放政府的成果那得到非常好的一些成績那我們現在開始徵求第二期的這些可能開放政府相關的一些推動方案"},{"start":2183.39,"end":2209.81,"text":"請看到下一頁有關於法規鬆綁的部分持續跟這些外國商會來溝通我們的經營法治環境美國商會的部分三場的這些溝通協調會已經完成後續還有歐商、日商跟紐澳商來做一些平台請看到下一頁開放政府的檔案的部分我們還是方向上還是最大的開放、最小的管制"},{"start":2210.61,"end":2211.371,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":2240.796,"end":2268.432,"text":"好謝謝我們拱竹委的報告現在要進行詢答那委員質詢前呢依照慣例我們做主席台做幾項的宣告每位委員發言時間本委員會6分鐘必要的時候加2分鐘那非本委員會呢4分鐘必要的時候延長1分鐘我們上午10點半截止登記那首先登記發言的"},{"start":2280.139,"end":2286.401,"text":"首先第一位換了齁我們陳廷輝委員跟邱毅委員對調我們請資訊信息"},{"start":2304.994,"end":2315.246,"text":"第一位的邱毅宜委員請做詢討邱委員也是早"},{"start":2326.66,"end":2339.927,"text":"主委早 主委還是要請教一下 這個國發會兼顧了整個國家經濟發展的一個非常重要的責任 那最近大概國發會應該也會"},{"start":2342.59,"end":2365.117,"text":"強烈的去注意到台股的加權指數現在已經是創下了歷史上的新高點看到這第一張圖從2016年15年開始一路到現在2024年在小英政府的這個主導之下主責之下我們現在股市來到19386點這應該是史上新高了台積電的這個數額也是史上新高那根據"},{"start":2371.462,"end":2383.848,"text":"主計總署的這個經濟成長率的預報、預估現在我們又往上調整了0.08個百分點對不對你們現在主計總署的預估2024的經濟成長率會到3.43"},{"start":2389.042,"end":2404.148,"text":"您覺得這一個經濟成長率的預估符合現在實際的標準嗎?是,我跟委員報告就是說我剛才報告的時候現在看起來就是說比較調高的部分就是出口的部分"},{"start":2404.668,"end":2426.303,"text":"出口現在很明顯有兩個重點一個是過去我們一直在調整存貨那存貨大概調整慢慢到一個段落了那另外一個就是有關於AI或相關的這些新的科技它的需求有爆發性的一些成長那那個剛好是台灣很重要的這個出口的產品所以您認為這樣的主技術的經濟成長率調高到3.43這個會是樂觀還是比較保守的這樣的一個估計你覺得會不會再往上修正"},{"start":2434.428,"end":2437.873,"text":"我們要繼續觀察到底是不是還有可能是變化情況"},{"start":2452.948,"end":2472.537,"text":"你們的這個燈號指數啊最近也同時發表了這個燈號指數嘛你們的這個計算的標準跟指標其實有做了一些微調所以呢睽違17個月之後1月份的景氣燈號指數是亮了綠燈喔那有的人認為說是不是因為你的這個指標改變"},{"start":2473.778,"end":2486.448,"text":"所以要符合你的所謂的指標改變然後做了一個這樣子的綠燈的調整這個我覺得國發會可能需要來說明一下我讓你有幾分鐘的時間說明我們如果用舊的指標答案一樣也是一樣的是綠燈"},{"start":2493.733,"end":2521.502,"text":"所以不是因為指標的改變不是因為指標改變的關係是因為不管你用舊的或者是新的標準去計算一樣是27分一樣是會達到綠燈沒有錯那主要的原因是因為那個舊的指標它我們經過反覆的測試以後它有點鈍化了沒有辦法去反映這個所以這個其實我們在去年也跟您請教過嘛已經有對所以這不是技術性不是技術性的對那您覺得這樣的一個景氣指標"},{"start":2523.126,"end":2549.884,"text":"未來的前景它會持續往上呢?或者是說至少這個綠燈的信號可以維持多久?它不會是因為比如說我們1月2月可能遇到農曆的春節啦等等這一些採買所以你的整個景氣燈號是亮綠燈您覺得舊國發會的專業評估未來上半年的台灣的景氣指數能夠持續這樣的維持或者是會一路往上走嗎?"},{"start":2550.384,"end":2569.206,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":2569.466,"end":2590.819,"text":"所以它是一個比較穩定性的因為你說如果比較這個前瞻的這個指標它可能會變來變去訂單可能變但是你一旦你生產銷售全面性的翻轉的話那它不會是因為過年春節的這個關係還是說其實還是要在long term一點的去觀察比如說到3月、4月"},{"start":2592.34,"end":2614.02,"text":"我們會更加有信心還是說其實就你們現在的這樣的一個長期的觀察下來你覺得這樣的一個景氣指數是會往上走的台灣的景氣或者是說全球的景氣其實都是會往上走持續觀察我們一定要做的但是因為現在3月了那2月份有一些資料已經陸續出來的我們有做一個頻寬"},{"start":2614.801,"end":2615.902,"text":"主委我接下來要請教的我覺得這個電腦好像還是怪怪的好這個"},{"start":2634.915,"end":2653.236,"text":"今年是農年,我們的少子化的問題其實這個也是非常嚴重的國安議題根據內政部的統計雖然我們去年的人口已經不再復成長了但是我們的新生兒的人數再創新低"},{"start":2654.94,"end":2683.397,"text":"我到目前為止其實還沒有很完整的看出國發會對於少子化的這個問題我們相關的政策是什麼我們過去這幾個月或者是過去的這一兩年我們大概都討論的是整個經濟的成長出口或者是缺工或者是白領移入的問題那對於少子化這件事情國發會有什麼相關的政策那你們推動的成效是什麼"},{"start":2685.166,"end":2712.973,"text":"發言委員因為國發會主要關注的是整體的人口：對：它的變化：是那人口的變化當然就是有少子化的部分甚至有老年化結構的部分：對：還有是嬰兒的部分我其實下一題要問你老年化結構的部分對還有就是人口嬰兒的部分我看起來你好像對少子化這一題沒有研究那我如果問你老年化：人口老年化的這個部分因為少子化的部分在行政院有一個推動的一個機制是林政委在督導"},{"start":2713.733,"end":2730.538,"text":"我們當然有參與我們也可以提供我們的政策建議所以為什麼當時少數化在2016年的時候那時候提供的這個預算只有一百多億現在已經超過一千億了那大概就是在這樣的一個機制之下不斷的增加這個部分來進行"},{"start":2732.244,"end":2760.138,"text":"好了,少子化這一題我看起來你研究的幅度不是太大啦應該都是林政委在研究不過其實這是一個牽扯性的比如說我們現在的少子化孩子生得少青少年的人口數其實也一直在減少反而中老年的人口是在大幅增加所以如果你們對於中老年的關切度是比較高的話來"},{"start":2762.372,"end":2776.456,"text":"中高齡勞工的就業 主任您看一下我們現在統計了一下大概幾個比如說南韓、日本、美國對於中高齡的就業南韓65歲以上的就業人口是37.3%"},{"start":2778.337,"end":2781.261,"text":"對於中高齡的勞動人口的參與率其實是相對偏低而且是非常低的"},{"start":2795.319,"end":2824.092,"text":"國發會有沒有在這一方面去做任何的研究如何協助我們的中高齡的勞工或者是讓他們能夠持續的投入職場或者是輔導他們再就業然後我們在整個勞動市場來講也好或者是產業的公司的這個經營的層級上面來講如何讓他們更友善的去對待我們的所謂的中高齡勞工有沒有做這一方面的政策研究"},{"start":2824.352,"end":2842.749,"text":"是,報告委員我們這個是分成兩個部分來做一些幫忙一個您剛才提到的勞工職場的部分怎麼樣更友善這個中高齡他們可以進到就業那現在比較好的部分就是說因為以前體力工來講對他們可能是負擔但是現在都用自動化來取代了所以比較需要是腦力的部分"},{"start":2843.85,"end":2848.754,"text":"對,不要勞力密集的當然中華林大會被排斥在外嘛但是現在我們就盡量的這個自動化跟智慧化那這樣他們參與的機會就很大而且運用他們的這個智慧那這個是一個部分那另外一個部分就是家庭的因素那我們怎麼樣透過一些長照機構讓"},{"start":2865.268,"end":2873.912,"text":"國際的這些老年人要照顧更老的人的時候讓他們可以不要那麼有責任這麼重大然後他們就可以出來工作等等的一些情況"},{"start":2875.351,"end":2901.964,"text":"我覺得這個議題其實是非常重要尤其如何輔導中高齡的勞工不管他是在就業或者是持續就業在整個就業市場上面如何去分散解決臺灣的勞動力不足的這樣的一個問題現在我們的這個平均餘命年齡已經到八十幾歲了其實65歲是非常年輕的你看你們內閣裡面的這些部會首長少於65歲以下的我看"},{"start":2903.805,"end":2931.984,"text":"對,阿現在60幾歲他要照顧80幾歲所以他我們怎麼樣來協助他這個部分也讓他可以有機會可以如果能夠協助他們借重他們過去的知識或者是智慧、經驗能夠重新再投入這個職場上面給職場上有更多的協助也能夠解決我們部分的這些所謂的勞動力不足或者是職能不足的這樣的一個問題嘛好,這個如果有一些比較詳細的資料是不是能夠請主委也可以給問一下好不好,謝謝"},{"start":2933.786,"end":2934.266,"text":"陳婷菲委員"},{"start":2955.606,"end":2980.484,"text":"委員長早安主委我想我們固定我們都要針對整個打炸的進度來做一個追蹤那其實我們在國發會的部分我們在各自的這樣的一個所謂控管還有整個控制它的一個外洩的部分我們當然現在是要成立各自保護委員會"},{"start":2981.785,"end":3000.635,"text":"現在籌備當中,因為已經掛牌了目前也是由您來擔任這樣的一個主要的角色對不對對,我跟羅政委所以在這個部分到底我們現在進度如何各自委員會的進度如何"},{"start":3003.015,"end":3003.055,"text":"議員發言人"},{"start":3019.505,"end":3043.388,"text":"一年8月12日,憲法法庭的憲判制第13號判決意旨行政院是必須在114年8月12日以前成立各自保護委員會對,就是最晚明年,明年要推動那怎麼來得及所以組織法我們會盡快的不是在這個會期就下一個會期一定要提出來"},{"start":3044.469,"end":3049.681,"text":"這個會期那現在有眉目了嗎這個會期你勢必什麼時候要送到行政院院會"},{"start":3052.498,"end":3073.206,"text":"現在行政院院會通過以後就會送到立法院沒有啊 那你要先送行政院院會來現在主治法送行政院院會了嗎還沒啊那現在送了嗎還沒嗎還沒有還沒有還沒啊那怎麼這個會期會來得及他們一估是6月份會送出來6月份會送行政院院會對"},{"start":3074.898,"end":3103.115,"text":"那我們再來討論看看時間有沒有辦法再往前一點那這次還是要跟他們做一些溝通你今天從組織法完了之後不是組織法過了就OK欸是那還要配合有一個第二階段的修法對啊你還有修法欸沒有錯那第二階段的修法會在下個會期裡面提出來你都在下個會期組織法也在下個會期修法也在下個會期奈乎啦"},{"start":3104.793,"end":3132.907,"text":"你要有一個專法欸!是不是?你有一個專法欸!其實我們打仗無法說真的在去年法案推出之後響噹噹可是其實裡面有很多是完全沒辦法去做處理的啊!一定要有專法所以我們現在在各自的部分就是要用各自委員會保護委員會去做一個平台去執行嘛!好那我再問"},{"start":3134.108,"end":3155.932,"text":"那各自外洩的管制怎麼處理各自外洩現在我們有一個跨部會的一個平台在做機制嘛行政院下面各個各個目的事業主管主管假如有通報或他們直接他有分平常跟事件發生這個平台有什麼用對就是說這個平台有什麼用各自還是在外洩啊現在看到的"},{"start":3160.086,"end":3185.976,"text":"有一些就是有至少有些處理啊有些處理的方式各自外泄我們明明從我們手中不論是手機簡訊甚至是網路我們都常常聽到民眾在說我的各自被外泄對現在就是但是呢我們各自外泄的查緝案件就一件就一件"},{"start":3188.024,"end":3196.633,"text":"這好像跟我們實際感受的、民眾所感受的相差有一點距離啊。什麼叫重大事件?"},{"start":3212.059,"end":3212.479,"text":"主席"},{"start":3224.676,"end":3253.035,"text":"有一個單位把各自露出去請他露到什麼程度叫做重大事件還是他要影響到國安才叫重大事件你要把這個標準定出來啊是沒有錯我說你這個平台在幹什麼你這個平台從過去到現在民眾感受我常常在講從選舉前到選舉後對就是說這一個握有這些各自的這個這個機構也好或是公司也好他握有多少"},{"start":3253.936,"end":3279.263,"text":"的名單或是什麼﹖對啊﹖那你要把這個遞出來啊﹖對對對﹖他會有名單很大﹖那他各式外界就是輸﹖什麼叫名單大跟小啦﹖沒有﹖他如果他的個資只有﹖比如說來講﹖那所以我漏10個﹖不是漏10個﹖他掌握的如果﹖他如果﹖如果今天我掌握10個﹖我漏了10個這叫小案件﹖不是不是﹖他如果掌握的這些客戶﹖他的客戶名單如果只有10位或100位的話﹖"},{"start":3280.023,"end":3293.511,"text":"跟一萬那就不一樣了那一萬所以一萬是重大案件所以10個就不是重大案件哪有這個樣子的一個論斷呢影響的程度啦什麼叫影響程度如果這10個人露出去這是大戶所影響的層面這算小嗎所以這個都會我們在跨部會平台會做一個討論你們今天跨部會平台成立多久了"},{"start":3306.95,"end":3310.951,"text":"從去年開始是啊從去年到現在我現在問你這個問題你還在跟我說小案件大案件我問你什麼叫大案件你也沒有辦法做一個處理中央目的事業主管機關他的那個業務形態非常的複雜所以認定上來講的話我們是尊重中央目的事業主管機關來認定什麼樣要但是你有一個標準啊"},{"start":3331.798,"end":3352.867,"text":"就是因為樣太多你要把標準定出來那如果各個單位都自己定然後都沒有一個標準那誰在論定什麼叫大案什麼叫小案在平台當中多久要把它處理出來這個現在的個資外洩這個部分目前我們看到跟民眾的感受度是有落差的"},{"start":3353.487,"end":3353.507,"text":"委員"},{"start":3376.894,"end":3380.236,"text":"主委,你今天講的這些基本上在我們打詐的這種決心看不出來"},{"start":3401.161,"end":3424.574,"text":"在我們當時候想當當說我們要去打仗到現在你們的做法跟態度會讓民眾覺得很軟弱所以為什麼我們在選前到選後每一次民眾都給我炸下來喔我在卸票的時候我騎著鐵馬在卸票的時候給我炸下來"},{"start":3426.203,"end":3455.196,"text":"謝謝謝謝"},{"start":3458.991,"end":3473.398,"text":"接下來我們請林黛嬅委員請做巡檔有請主委我們再請主委"},{"start":3480.743,"end":3497.142,"text":"民生問題 高鐵為什麼收不到訊號?偏鄉為什麼收不到訊號?隧道為什麼收不到訊號?以及我們講說要行人地獄 這個行人地獄當中的智慧入口我怎麼樣的落實?"},{"start":3498.183,"end":3504.29,"text":"只有加速5G的基礎建設。好,我們來爬出現在政府的5G相關的政策執行的狀況如何。彭新的提綱,這個包括我們電信5G現況的分析5G建設補助金及前三計畫中的5G經費的補助情形以及人民購買的服務"},{"start":3516.723,"end":3520.666,"text":"期望跟實際的落差又是怎麼樣具體的建議好為什麼人民的通訊權要來國發會來捍衛呢我們的軌道事業是交通部主管電信通訊的評斷是由行政院的NCC來管理5G產業發展是歷史速發部"},{"start":3540.321,"end":3548.843,"text":"這麼簡單的民生問題啊我只好在行政體系下由國發會來扮演跨部會的角色了好我們電信業5G的現況是什麼我們在2020年1月的時候5G的商用頻段4兆那時候呢這個一個大標題國庫進帳了1405億啊這麼多錢我們用在哪裡就是希望能夠用在5G國產的應用"},{"start":3569.926,"end":3581.448,"text":"但是呢我們電信業者仍然是利用現在的假5G也就是現在的DSS系的技術來做這個服務的簡單講什麼叫DSS這個技術它是用4G來讓的頻段的部分頻段運行5G的服務讓消費者體驗5G所以呢也就是現在每一個人手機的右上角"},{"start":3595.191,"end":3604.283,"text":"都打5G不好意思那全部都是假5G震撼吧各位消費者說全台灣人民隨便假5G那為什麼我人民去到買手機的時候我如果要由4G到買到5G我要多付月租費耶"},{"start":3613.575,"end":3615.277,"text":"所以國貨編了一千多億結果呢有沒有落實沒有還是假5G我人民要買這個這個5G的系統我多付了業主會有享受到嗎沒有好那這個呢我們來看我們5G建設怎麼花錢在前瞻第4期喔這都已經執行完畢囉針對5G的"},{"start":3634.574,"end":3662.604,"text":"基礎公共建設編列了85億其中5G的網路建設計畫68億包含等等等5G的資安也得1億多分配在哪裡?速發部國科會好另外行政院的NCC呢他也花了155億完成了鼓勵國內的電信業者加速5G的基礎建設包含鼓勵國產化的5G基站的設備"},{"start":3663.624,"end":3669.707,"text":"有沒有落實?完全沒有國廠化的5G設備現在所用的通訊系統不管是Nokia的或者是Allison的全部都還是原廠的好那民眾購買的服務期望跟實際有落差我們就是在這個假5G的情況之下就所謂DSS機制的這個環境之下民眾並沒有獲到5G的真正服務還是用4G的頻段設備"},{"start":3693.096,"end":3710.621,"text":"效能沒有達到5G的效益也就是說5G完成商品試照4年了從2020的1月到今年的20243月整整4年我國的電信行動服務並沒有真正完成基礎建設的提升更不要講國產5G設備的投入好"},{"start":3713.542,"end":3719.627,"text":"那本辦公室非常的認真我們委託實測我就在北市的捷運作為模擬的試驗場我用這樣的5GN78的就是我們商用視頻的這個頻道進行隧道跟站體的建置好果然在電信服務的效能呈現了倍速成長隧道不再斷訊收訊的品質提升你看下面這兩張圖是我們實測出來的"},{"start":3739.921,"end":3751.701,"text":"在隧道當中黃黃色的那個吧他其實就是現況在隧道當中黃色然後藍色的是我們實測的果然是倍數包括在站體也是如此"},{"start":3753.527,"end":3780.596,"text":"那本席就具體要求了根本製造在第一個要求電信業者中華電信、臺歌大、遠傳提升核心網路Nokia跟Allison由現在的假5G提升到真5G我國產的網路通訊業者才能加國產的基地台借接到電信網路市場簡單的說就算我國產的業者投入了這樣的基地台的設備"},{"start":3781.696,"end":3805.661,"text":"他現在就是沒有辦法借接到我們的中華電信台歌大遠傳因為他們還是用Nokia Edison的4G而不是用Nokia Edison的5G他們不願意投入成本所以導致我們花了好多錢政府有沒有在做?有我現在詹處長很清楚他一直在點頭他很清楚問題的重點可是為什麼這三家"},{"start":3806.841,"end":3812.045,"text":"就是要你來出面啊我跟交通部講他就會說真的是這樣子交通部說我們現在那個產業應用已經移到抒發部了抒發部說這個是NCC的NCC說這是我們過去的政策所以現在移到抒發部了兩個不會是這樣我是實質用書面的所知喔這樣兩個不會回答我"},{"start":3831.039,"end":3846.543,"text":"所以為什麼要國發會出來好第二個我也要求電信業者針對台鐵、高鐵、捷運等及地下交通設備及軌道提升通訊方法非常簡單只要在目前的甲5G現在的4G系統下簡單拉個光線就能夠解決那電信業者"},{"start":3852.344,"end":3877.801,"text":"就是不做他就是要節省成本犧牲人民的通訊權所以我要拜託國發會來協調相關部會提出具體的方案及具體的施策這個馬上就可以做現在的私區系統拉光線就可以了第5、第三個檢討5G基礎設備的補助經費執行的成效及業者那這個以利你未來5G或6G的政策規劃及預算編列"},{"start":3880.022,"end":3898.595,"text":"這個我這個也要讓你來跟本席跟大家講到底你們在未來5G當中還要投入嗎還是就提升成6G的如果你再敢給我編沒有檢討5G的情況之下包括你的電信業者沒有提升你的第一個核心網路沒有4G提升到5G你再再編6G那根本就詐騙就詐騙台政府"},{"start":3902.077,"end":3902.358,"text":"主委 您回應一下"},{"start":3913.408,"end":3914.709,"text":"主委來來來 這一點我們兩個搞清楚喔你講的是專網"},{"start":3940.76,"end":3946.861,"text":"我講的是通訊、公網這是兩件不一樣我講的是公網嗎公網也要提升到5G喔所以我剛才提到了公網的部分我同意怎麼樣來精進但是我們編很多的預算是在怎麼樣提升小基站或是物聯網讓它智慧工廠、智慧交通等等的一些情況是比較local型的那個部分那那個部分的確很多部分已經國產化了"},{"start":3970.367,"end":3978.954,"text":"是有的那我跟委員補充說明但是我同意公網那個部分怎麼樣來提升它的效果我們來做督促對這是全台灣人民的通訊權我的高鐵這樣走過他們就會省錢啊為什麼不要提升因為我閃過去兩三秒所以呢哎呀就是才兩三秒收不到訊號沒關係啦就算不願意投資啊中華電信啊或者這些台哥大啊或遠傳啊他們就這種苟且的心態啊所以您這邊要你的實質上要怎麼要求呢"},{"start":3999.309,"end":3999.749,"text":"接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做詢答"},{"start":4042.697,"end":4068.275,"text":"謝謝主席、謝謝趙委請拱志偉我們再請拱志偉趙委員早安拱志偉早安是那今天我們要來講小朋友的安全是是是是小朋友在這個中興新村啊你們的這個遊樂園裡面撞破了頭、頭破血流、瘋了五針"},{"start":4069.79,"end":4079.161,"text":"到底這個案子已經一個多月了嘛一月十四到現在要兩個月啊你們有沒有負責?賠償了嗎?我常常問他說到現在還沒公共意外責任選到現在還沒賠喔?"},{"start":4088.526,"end":4113.834,"text":"跟委員報告一下吧因為他2月20幾號才把相關的醫療不是一月十四一月十四發生你一月十五就去關心嗎對我們都有跟家長溝通那家姓家長我們每個禮拜去了解他的狀況然後他在2月底才把相關的單據送給我們那我們現在已經我已經批了盡快好不好盡快這個速度要加快我們每天都會追喔"},{"start":4115.434,"end":4140.866,"text":"接下來我們看一下除了小朋友這個賠償的問題這個要加快之外安全問題更重要要給家長跟小朋友一個安心安全的遊樂的地方這個地方不能再出狀況昨天我還請專家特別到現場又去勘查了一次你們說一個月內一個月內本來要完成這個檢驗對不對那為什麼昨天去看 來來 主委你先看一下"},{"start":4142.261,"end":4143.062,"text":"好,跟委員報告一下齁那因為這邊的"},{"start":4170.964,"end":4198.49,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":4198.95,"end":4221.302,"text":"已經是有問題了,對不對?那發生問題,對不對?然後你們說一個月要把它檢查完以後要做好,對不對?結果我昨天在找人,我今天要質詢嘛,所以我早上叫人去實地去勘察至少發現兩個地方還有問題,第一我早上說的秋千,早上也是我孩子在那裡玩啊,尤其拜到禮拜人都很多喔,這個地方是小朋友常去的地方,你看右邊這個,欸上一張"},{"start":4224.224,"end":4239.031,"text":"為什麼不安全?這個是很清楚,你鞦韆一定是要轉的嘛對不對?你坐那個坐墊是要軟的對不對?而且按照規定一定是要有弧度的。我們現場很多爸爸媽媽坐阿公阿嬤的,你帶小朋友去公園玩,你會讓他坐右邊這個嗎?"},{"start":4243.379,"end":4250.181,"text":"因為我們現在決定重新把它整理但是這個重新整理、整修或是重新規劃因為它這個是屬於全區的文化景觀我們要送縣政府的文資委員會他們同意以後我們才可以動"},{"start":4272.407,"end":4282.216,"text":"那我們會儘快 要快一點啦 你不要再發生事情了 好不好 所以不要再發生 讓家長跟小朋友有一個安全的遊樂一個地方 絕對不要再出狀況了 看第二個圖來 這個也是現在沒有封起來的 這個是在搖搖馬 大家可以看到 這個圖你看就是在搖搖馬 左邊他是這樣搖馬對不對 你看 他下面這個彈簧 像彈簧這個地方 有沒有危險"},{"start":4299.122,"end":4299.503,"text":"有危險嗎?"},{"start":4299.503,"end":4322.695,"text":"主委你看有危險嗎?所以我們會盡快的齁 先先先把它封起來啦 後面對對對那另外給我一個東西 你說你有找合法的廠商去做了檢測嘛對不對找哪一家 找哪一家 他檢測報告是什麼 你等一下送來我辦公室好不好 好來那我們看下一個"},{"start":4325.384,"end":4347.63,"text":"好啦 這個今天就不問你了 反正你花了很多心思 我知道你要讓中華新村要重現光芒嘛我剛剛今天看你的這個報告裡面有很多 一定要做到注意我找時間借你來中興新村走一走今天很多人可能都從中興新村來的啦那邊以前是我們的政治中心 包括我們的主席 以前是新居民都在因為我們很美好的回憶啦 所以一方面讓它光滑再現"},{"start":4349.471,"end":4376.812,"text":"讓南投人、讓中興新村的人光滑在線有那個驕傲感。第二個小朋友玩的地方馬上要改好不好?第二個我們看一下這個也很重要我看你今天報告的第4頁你的第4頁啊你說電價要調控要有三顏者對不對?主委我電給你聽啦你不用找了啦你說照顧民生對不對?穩定物價節約能源現在電價要去啊你怎麼照顧民生?怎麼穩定物價?"},{"start":4378.973,"end":4397.601,"text":"是原則,但是實際的做法可能要經濟部跟省議委員會他們做最後的決定經濟部打臉你嗎?經濟部打臉國發會嗎?不會啦,他們還是會用這個三原則來規劃你看這個對照表有沒有一點諷刺,你看一下右邊是4月份經濟部準備這樣做的"},{"start":4402.289,"end":4422.539,"text":"民生用電1000度以上要調10% 300度以下的要調5%你怎麼照顧民生怎麼穩定物價?欸你是很有名的經濟學者欸 主委 主委 今天這樣調下去 調下去 物價會上漲嗎?主委 你是很有名的經濟學者喔 你又下次國發會主委 這樣調會不會物價會不會再上漲?"},{"start":4424.895,"end":4444.339,"text":"我同意啦就是說電價上漲當然會對物價會有影響這也是因為也因為這樣子所以過去一兩年我們為什麼一定要平衡電價前面20年漲都是300度以下民生都沒有漲啊為什麼這要漲現在那個物價飆漲那麼高"},{"start":4451.056,"end":4465.733,"text":"主計總署不是剛公布嗎?我們股尼就是因為物價上漲太高啊我們實質的總薪資倒退11年來最高啊這怎麼會是一個漲電價的好的時間啊?特別是民生用電為什麼300度以下也可以漲呢?"},{"start":4468.522,"end":4482.376,"text":"你可不可以去跟他們說一下嗎?國發委主委、國民心能不能去跟經濟部長或者是行政院長我做一個建議我知道蔡總統常常爭取你意見嘛你跟蔡總統講民生用電不能漲,可以嗎?"},{"start":4484.08,"end":4505.355,"text":"因為明天那個召委就有排那個一個專案報告是不是讓經濟部先說明以後你說我明天才問他 明天才問他問題是你是負責國家、省體發展的人啊又是那麼有名的學者啊而且他打臉了你沒有看到嗎你這個照顧民生有穩定物價嗎我明天才拿這個東西問王美花 她要現水配是不是"},{"start":4508.8,"end":4536.893,"text":"這個還是要看他的方案沒有啦,你站在國家的發展啊站在穩定物價跟照顧民生啊我甚至這樣問好了啊你會不會是經濟部長董明新以後打臉你現在的國會主委董明新你到時候我拿這個你當經濟部長我拿這個去問你你如果守不住民生用電不要漲你是不是打臉自己去啦,去跟總統講一下啦好不好"},{"start":4537.961,"end":4543.592,"text":"謝謝 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":4552.444,"end":4581.021,"text":"主委我還是要提醒因為委員在詢答的時候還是要針對委員的提問因為今天我們的書面資料都是由國發會所提出所以你應該是要以你所提出的政策方向去做詢答而不是請明天召委排了什麼議程請經濟部去看什麼方案這樣子本席沒有辦法接受要尊重我們每一位委員的詢答"},{"start":4581.783,"end":4584.265,"text":"謝謝主席我想要請我們國發會的拱竹偉我們再請拱竹偉"},{"start":4612.838,"end":4635.649,"text":"主席總署預估我們今年的GDP成長可以到達3.43可是外界普遍有認為說好像保三都有問題那在什麼樣的情況下你認為台灣今天的經濟可以到達3.43那什麼樣的情況不行"},{"start":4636.673,"end":4662.112,"text":"報告委員您看看他的預測的日期主委總書是最近最接近因為主委總書是看到了比較新的一些數據出來是因為PMI的指數就是說有稍微擴張嗎不單單只是這樣事實上我們比如說我們的景氣燈號就很明顯的看到包括投資、生產、消費"},{"start":4662.893,"end":4665.375,"text":"台灣重要的這個出口基地所以就是說有這樣的一個修正"},{"start":4691.471,"end":4713.94,"text":"所以我覺得他修正還算合理那歐洲是不是也有相關的這樣子的情況就是他們的需求增加歐元區歐元區當然是經濟成長現在是相對去年是有稍稍下修但是就是說使用AI的部分這個部分還是在全世界還是比較需求還是比較大的"},{"start":4715.821,"end":4740.42,"text":"但是我也看到了即便是我們說有可能我們可以達到3.43的那個經濟成長但是對於物價指數而言大家還是認為有可能會超過2%因為如果就是4月宣布漲價、電價漲價的時候那物價指數會不會跟著就是也是往上漲呢?"},{"start":4741.806,"end":4766.755,"text":"現在主席總書他的確是有稍微調升物價的部分調到1.85那當然電價的部分我是沒有辦法預測我是說他只有調到1.85那你覺得會不會因為有可能在各種情況下因為畢竟如果電價上漲工業電價上漲有可能轉嫁到各種的品項"},{"start":4767.515,"end":4768.677,"text":"的確是免不了的這也就是為什麼過去我們對於"},{"start":4781.156,"end":4782.838,"text":"好,那我想請問,就是"},{"start":4798.553,"end":4807.238,"text":"台積電在日本風光的開幕目前我看到了日本的經濟成長指數是從1點"},{"start":4813.242,"end":4834.435,"text":"9.4%下修到0.66%那他下修的這是今年度那所以是不是因為他非常的就是說重視我們的台積電那到日本去擴廠希望台積電可以帶動他的經濟的成長那我們國內呢你認為我們國內對於台積電整體的產業的發展"},{"start":4841.513,"end":4865.731,"text":"有沒有辦法就是說我們有辦法給他什麼樣子的就是優惠或者是給予我們整個就是晶片的這樣子上中下游整體的產業的策略呢是報告委員所以我們現在為什麼就是說尤其是AI將來的需求是比較需求比較大"},{"start":4867.432,"end":4886.823,"text":"那AI上面的晶片需求是比較高階的這個製程可能是2奈米以下的或是3奈米那這個部分的確是對台灣的需求非常大所以台積電也為什麼那麼積極的可能要擴充他的產能不僅在高雄可能在中科等等的一些情況"},{"start":4888.344,"end":4914.838,"text":"在嘉義也有可能會有封測廠等等的一些相關的布局那這是因應未來這個晶片上的一些需求那日本的部分擴廠主要是日本原來他也有晶片上的需求包括SONY的部分DENZO主要是在汽車用那評估起來可能高階的這些生產上的需求可能還不足以國內的需求還不足以滿足全世界的需求所以為什麼要蓋第二個廠"},{"start":4916.476,"end":4917.777,"text":"他們期待台積電變成日本的黑船2.0"},{"start":4942.596,"end":4969.011,"text":"來拯救他們失落的30年可是如果我們看到台積電一直的就是說往外移那會不會導致整個我們臺灣就是引以為傲的戲盾那或者是說我們賴以為就是說的戲盾會你知道嗎一直採取外移報告委員他不是外移啊他是同步擴廠同步擴廠對他在國內擴廠的幅度更大"},{"start":4969.795,"end":4987.811,"text":"所以比日本還大?對那精密的都留在台灣嗎?你說?我說比較高製程的都留在台灣嗎?是是是沒有錯沒有錯那所以對於台積都大概都會先都會先留在台灣嗎?對對對沒有錯因為日本的二廠是6到7奈米"},{"start":4988.851,"end":5014.064,"text":"可是我們必須要了解現在我們看到美國的就是說總統的未來總統的選情也有可能會有變化那如果川普當選呢他們一直希望我們的台積電可以就是說我們科技業可以到美國去設廠那如果有這樣子的情況產生的時候"},{"start":5016.145,"end":5030.662,"text":"我們要怎麼樣因應?因為台積電已經宣布到美國會蓋第二個廠而且總共投入400億美金我是說如果因應現在是拜登政府嘛那未來如果不是拜登政府的時候是川普政府的時候呢?"},{"start":5031.363,"end":5058.54,"text":"照理說那個廠應該就是在美國的廠會陸續會陸續的蓋好所以這個在進行當中對會不會會不會他會不會我是說有沒有可能如果美國要求我們持續的就是要求不是我們要求台積電持續的在美國擴廠就看現在的這個目前的這個建廠的進度跟他的這個產能狀況還是你覺得到時候520了就不管你的事你應該不是這種人"},{"start":5060.953,"end":5082.433,"text":"你應該不是這種人吧?你覺得應該是會為台灣的就是說高科技業以及相關的產業以及會因應我們所有的經濟發展的情況吧?是不是?是,報告委員就是半導體業現在在台灣事實上算是在國際間扮演關鍵性的力量這個關鍵性的角色在未來10年仍然會是"},{"start":5085.816,"end":5103.014,"text":"問題是我們怎麼樣讓這個關鍵的10年能夠擴展到更多的產業對沒有錯這個就是在應用端的部分所以為什麼我們現在一再的透過亞洲矽谷的部分推動這個物聯網AIoT的發展或智慧城市的發展"},{"start":5103.274,"end":5103.755,"text":"那相關你認為會對我們的經濟有多大的益助?"},{"start":5125.906,"end":5138.757,"text":"因為它變成一個百發齊放大家同時會受惠不是只有半島體也受惠而已包括我剛才提到的我們現在單單我們這個競技城市今年的這個3月底就會我們辦國際的這個競技這個"},{"start":5143.361,"end":5159.168,"text":"智慧程式展跟淨零程式展會來100多個城市全部都到我們來我們這個大概是全世界應該是跟巴塞隆納可以對比的那我們很好的是我們有實際上的這些智慧應用也好淨零的solution出來了"},{"start":5159.588,"end":5174.138,"text":"以及有實質的東西所以包括東南亞還有其他的國家他們都非常喜歡把我們這些成果跟他們合作引介到他們國家去那這個也是很大很大的傷心事實上也是我們在亞系3.0很重要的這個推動的重點"},{"start":5174.938,"end":5174.958,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":5205.512,"end":5206.353,"text":"接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做詢問。"},{"start":5246.969,"end":5251.076,"text":"主席、各位委員、請主委。好,我們再請孔主委。主委好。"},{"start":5261.769,"end":5269.876,"text":"本席在今年的2月5號新聞給國發會針對嚴明會113年1月10號航報這個花東地區原住民族部落集會所興建行動計畫這個國發會在2月7號就很快的回航了"},{"start":5284.264,"end":5299.066,"text":"就特別提到這個克澤韓請各有關機關嚴提意見中請問一下目前的進度怎麼樣原則上我們會支持啦但是行政上我請是不是那個處長說明一下目前好請說明"},{"start":5301.17,"end":5326.325,"text":"跟委員做個報告那這個計劃其實大概花東基金跟與居部落的經費會大概會各付一半那現在各部會意見大致都回來了我們會盡快含附行政院大概我們原則會支持各部會的意見有沒有需要嚴明會去做修正應該是不用修正速度會很快那個所以這個"},{"start":5327.305,"end":5354.975,"text":"金費來源,剛有提到一個是演命會的移籍部落計劃嗎?對,一個是我們發動基金好,這個比例怎麼樣?大概50-50啦,我們少一點點因為以公務機關為主嘛,那基金為輔嘛,但是所以說會差一點點,差不多啦那就是說,好,是不是這個?"},{"start":5357.617,"end":5360.223,"text":"發動第7永續發展基金補助計劃運作機制"},{"start":5364.264,"end":5365.325,"text":"好我們看齁這個是"},{"start":5396.303,"end":5412.336,"text":"這個講話花東第7永續發展基金補助計畫的運作機制是在108年7月12日國發會奉行政院合可之後所訂出來的"},{"start":5413.773,"end":5431.743,"text":"這裡面除了縣政府提報的機制原來就有了那現在就特別增加了鄉鎮施工所提報的機制還有各部會以及民間委員提報的機制建立了這樣的一個機制"},{"start":5435.893,"end":5460.559,"text":"要請這個國發會因為從108年7月12號航班之後也已經現在已經113年度了那本席也想瞭解實際上的執行的一個情形是不是請這個我們國發會提供提供這個從108年起鄉鎮事工所"},{"start":5464.676,"end":5488.386,"text":"以及部會或民間委員提報的計劃名稱以及合定的情形,可以嗎?可以這個部分就請這個國安會來提供好,我們接下來談這個原住民族博物館原住民族已經等待了超過8年這個8年是從這個博物館法開始講"},{"start":5493.291,"end":5516.546,"text":"那事實上如果從本席來看不止啦已經十幾年了這個本席在101年還是文件會的時代一直到文化部就開始質詢本來本席也有其他的一個構想那後來這個經過多次的質詢協調之後你看這個質詢的那個次數之多"},{"start":5522.907,"end":5547.075,"text":"非常多一直到105年2月17日這個時間點很重要105年2月17日行政院核定選址在新北市的因格期但是很遺憾非常非常的遺憾的就是105年520520"},{"start":5552.402,"end":5579.198,"text":"將近8年前這個閒子嚴明會變更閒子的作業要重新閒子不同的政府就不同意在新北市的因割期好,重新閒子一直到109年9月21日重新閒子又花了一年多的時間"},{"start":5580.424,"end":5606.553,"text":"重新閒置：最後嚴明會重新閒置在高雄市的澄清府109年9月21日到現在這麼多年所以國家及原住民族博物館的新建歷程非常的艱辛這個如果我們看這個博物館法"},{"start":5608.075,"end":5631.336,"text":"也特別明定這個國家級政府要興建這個博物館法第6條作業目的事業主管機關應設置原住民族博物館在這樣的一個過程當中從選址又重新選址到現在這樣的一個過程"},{"start":5633.154,"end":5656.778,"text":"我也質詢過很多次在這段時間我們就講上一屆而已我從109開始質詢國發會還有主席總署、研明會還有這個文化部我還請文化部協助協助研明會到底問題出在哪裡中華民國政府"},{"start":5658.604,"end":5686.419,"text":"新建國家級的博物館太多太多了很多案例可以參考我就不相信我就不相信嚴密會我自己在嚴密會服務了很多年了我在省政府服務了20年總共30年的公務人員我也在省政府看過當初臺灣省政府在精神之前"},{"start":5687.659,"end":5711.821,"text":"要興建台南那邊的一個舍前博物館的分館很快的就完成了這個主委到底問題出在哪裡?你審查過很多次啊不過這個案子我們已經韓副行政院那原則同意了已經往前走了啦已經進行了對開始可以進行什麼叫原則同意?"},{"start":5712.905,"end":5730.085,"text":"對,就是他報來的這個方向,我們大概已經同意了,因為這個同意以後他還要做細部規劃等等一些情況還在細部規劃他的規劃大致上已經完成了,我們已經含附他了,對,在2月28號的時候"},{"start":5734.243,"end":5757.368,"text":"我們就以第二次限制106年到現在也5年了所以這個部分實在是不止5年了所以這個到底問題出在那裏你們可不可以詳細的寫出意見提供給本席去怎麼樣去協助人民會或是去協調相關的部會"},{"start":5763.225,"end":5775.096,"text":"後面很快就可以設計開始施工了他們要成立那個籌備處也都沒有呢?也都不同意?都還沒有?"},{"start":5777.329,"end":5779.13,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5804.56,"end":5805.401,"text":"主席,我想請拱主委再請拱主委"},{"start":5833.662,"end":5833.802,"text":"國發會主委"},{"start":5854.282,"end":5865.153,"text":"大家都覺得說您是國內經濟產業的專家一把手那您怎麼看台積電在熊本設廠這件事對台灣的影響"},{"start":5867.695,"end":5890.772,"text":"我自己認為大概有兩層的意涵第一個就是說對台積電而言那原來像Sony跟Denso甚至以後來的Toyota它原來是它的客戶那現在變成它的合作夥伴所以原來從客戶變成合作夥伴就它的這個ecosystem就是生態系就把它build up起來了"},{"start":5891.932,"end":5896.955,"text":"對台灣而言,因為全世界將來類似這樣的晶片需求不管是中階或高階,需求量一定非常大你會擔心說這會降低台灣的影響力嗎?跟重要性嗎?"},{"start":5915.226,"end":5937.754,"text":"因為這個基本上他的決策還是在TSMC,TSMC就是台積電他還是握有比較大的…您不是也是董事嗎?是,我是董事您是我們國家的法人代表嗎?對,對,我發信心的法人代表所以你也應該是有一個一席之地可以好好的表示說要把先進製程留在台灣不是嗎?您同意嗎?一定,一定,是"},{"start":5938.814,"end":5942.395,"text":"所以本席在這裡也想跟主委確定說主委也是贊成台積電在中科落腳的"},{"start":5969.008,"end":5969.328,"text":"據本席瞭解﹖"},{"start":5990.007,"end":6009.294,"text":"公主委在這個熊本開幕的時候您也去了那這個熊本可以說是這個熊本廠這麼快的快速可以建成其實也是蠻使人欽佩的但我覺得當中也體現出一點就是說政府的支持對於產業推動的速度"},{"start":6011.855,"end":6039.358,"text":"是有幫助的就日本政府全力的來協助他克服所有的困難所以本席在這裡也要求就是說國科會也好要全力的來支持台積電在我們臺灣繼續擴展這樣子的計畫您同意嗎?同意同意齁?全力支持嗎?全力支持全力支持你也覺得說只要你們全力支持應該我們的進度也不會落後太多吧?是"},{"start":6039.918,"end":6047.321,"text":"只要我們中央政府跟地方政府然後還有廠商共同合作的話這個速度效率就會提升起來那我在這裡也藉這個機會我想我不曉得說這個龔主委了不了解我們現在虎尾基地的一些優勢我有一個小小的這個我們虎尾跟熊本的這樣子的一個比較主委你也仔細參考一下目前我們虎尾"},{"start":6067.688,"end":6093.086,"text":"土地方面一千兩百多公頃的公有土地是台塘土地所以從虎尾連貫到土庫、寶中、東勢整個串聯起來其實它有一千兩百多公頃的土地甚至高達一千六百公頃如果排除掉包括其他的產業園區可以加入的話那台積電在熊本來比"},{"start":6093.646,"end":6093.746,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6116.431,"end":6144.48,"text":"對,就國會會的角度來講我們是樂觀其成但是這個中間有幾個部分可能要做一些處理比如說因為它是採訪的地原來是農地那牽涉到可能土地變更跟環評的問題還有當地居民的溝通等等的一些情況那這個可能這個當地是沒有居民的對這個是完全是農場所以完全可以排除掉這個承擴的部分就是租地的那些"},{"start":6145.2,"end":6154.107,"text":"當然當然目前目前就本席所知台堂是支持的畢竟這是國家重大的一個建設的政策那"},{"start":6155.563,"end":6181.7,"text":"人才的部分我們目前雲林縣有雲科大跟虎科大那熊本現在熊本場目前熊本縣一年會派60個學生到我們雲科大跟虎科大來學習所以這代表著說其實我們的人才是應該比熊本更加的厚實更加的多否則不應該是他們派學生來我們這裡學習"},{"start":6184.318,"end":6204.806,"text":"所以人才方面我們也是有優勢你同意嗎是因為這個製程本來就是在臺灣發展得非常好因為日本自從製造比較弱以後他相關的人才是有點流失的沒有錯是當然那包括說先進製程那個主委也同意說未來是要留在臺灣是嗎是那請問一下國科會對於這個有什麼具體的具體的規劃嗎因為現在"},{"start":6214.669,"end":6233.481,"text":"因為臺灣的土地也是很珍貴,我們不可能再去做比較成熟製程的,那個成熟製程因應於國際上的需求也許是在海外設廠,那國內當然是要用在最先進的製程,這個才比較make sense所以我再一次確認說您覺得臺積電在雲林湖尾中科二級擴廠您是全力支持的"},{"start":6239.657,"end":6261.795,"text":"我是樂觀其神的,但是就這樣有一些先決條件可能要先處理好是,就是針對短中長期的部分這樣子來推動您是支持的好,太感謝你了那因為我知道說您的副主委也是過去在我們雲林縣擔任過副縣長所以他應該也很了解我們雲林縣的優勢他也支持,謝謝"},{"start":6264.717,"end":6281.915,"text":"接下來我也想問一下就是說關於因為現在台灣高齡化、嫂子化是一個非常嚴重的問題那雲林縣的老化指數現在已經是全國第三名進入了超高齡的社會那目前衛福部是規劃說我們在那邊的床數"},{"start":6285.299,"end":6301.8,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":6302.16,"end":6319.889,"text":"長庚是一個蠻完善的醫療系統所以本席在這裡建議公主委考慮在雲林縣規劃一個大型的長照基地不只可以照顧雲林縣的鄉親之外我想可以照顧全台灣其他的鄉親"},{"start":6323.01,"end":6323.391,"text":"接下來我們請呂玉玲委員請做詢答"},{"start":6356.581,"end":6379.428,"text":"謝謝主席請拱主委我們再請拱主委立委員早安主委你在國發會已經將近要4年的時間了那我們國發會的組織工作最重要的就是規劃我們國家整體的這個發展的一個策略尤其是要監督各部會的整個計畫實施的這個期程"},{"start":6381.769,"end":6382.35,"text":"沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":6406.351,"end":6406.811,"text":"現在我們就來檢視一下我們國發會"},{"start":6430.37,"end":6448.816,"text":"在你1月份的時候,你特別有公布了這個我們景氣的燈號。連續的16個月,終於在藍轉為綠燈。但是在財政部在2月7號裡面也公布了我們1月份的出口統計。我們1月份的出口統計的話,金額是371.9億美元。跟去年相較比較起來,我們是成長了18%。但是這"},{"start":6459.62,"end":6482.188,"text":"我們那個出口總值我們看到了這個整個出口一月份的出口金額是136.7億的美元可是出口的整個動態我們幾乎看到我們國內好像整個是在復甦當中但是在一月份的時候我們整個主計總署也有公布了2023年的經濟成長率只有1.4%寶二都沒有到"},{"start":6487.95,"end":6492.173,"text":"保二都沒有到：而且主席總書也公布說這經濟回春可望我們今年能夠達到3% 這個是不是太過於樂觀了?主席總書前幾天又修正了他的一些數據 因為他看到 修正3.43 所以這就是本席要講的說"},{"start":6513.948,"end":6541.098,"text":"你當時的寶二都不到了只有1.4現在你說寶三更高要3.4所以我們會不會太過於樂觀了你整個來評估尤其是國際的整個情勢而定報告委員就是說現在從1月2日看到的一些狀況來講的話主要原因就是因為去年很多的產業基本上它有存貨早期來講有歐巴布克的狀況那一直在去化當中"},{"start":6541.678,"end":6541.698,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":6557.362,"end":6569.809,"text":"這個NVIDIA它會到臺灣來一直希望尋求這個產能上的一些基礎跟協助所以我還在請諸位多注意啦因為畢竟這個是14年來的新低啦所以你要整個聯合整個國際的整個變動要因應著這個策略才能夠讓我們臺灣整個經濟的狀況能夠實質的好轉好不好"},{"start":6579.054,"end":6583.397,"text":"接下來要跟主委討論的就是大矽谷計畫這個大矽谷計畫在我們的準總統賴清德在選舉期間就提出這個計畫說預計要投入200億的這個預算那現在在2月22號行政院也已經核定他說未來預估這個4年會創造6兆的這個產值"},{"start":6602.794,"end":6628.735,"text":"創造14萬的工作機會不管是在就業的機會還是提高我們的薪資培養人才等等是都會來帶動那我們在整個來看看我們大溪谷這個計畫那我們政府也必須要在這個水電的供應跟我們交通醫療跟近年的轉型跟員工的居住還有子女的交易等等來做一個完整的配套"},{"start":6629.295,"end":6650.841,"text":"這是在整個完整的配套裡面我們心裡想這個必須就是不管是我們各部會還有地方政府就一起要來努力做的對不對?是所以我們先從這個交通方面來看那在這一次我們在桃園來講的話我們桃園的話板龍快速道路跟新梅龍快速道路已經有納入這個計畫了是不是?有"},{"start":6652.722,"end":6667.739,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":6667.739,"end":6696.008,"text":"所以我要跟主委提醒的就是說桃園整個完善整個交通路網的話還有三條是北桃的部分在這個北桃的部分就有我們的城中快速道路跟我們的環城西快速道路跟國一甲的東延加上桃北的快速道路這三條可不可以並入一起來討論呢?都有在大氣鼓的方案裡面所以這三條北桃這三條快道路會並入?"},{"start":6698.943,"end":6723.985,"text":"為什麼要這樣子問主委呢?因為我在這次總諮詢裡面特別問交通部的王部長這三條要不要併入他說我們地方市政府送計畫來的話就來討論他公然說謊王部長公然說謊去年10月的時候我們地方政府就已經提出這個計畫這三條道路的計畫我們中央就已經回解說請地方政府自己去負責"},{"start":6725.196,"end":6740.213,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6740.213,"end":6743.475,"text":"接下來我們就要討論的就是我們的住宅醫療部分在醫療部分的話 主委您在這個醫療部分的話說未來會有23間醫院提供出1萬張的病床是不是?"},{"start":6766.957,"end":6793.356,"text":"桃竹苗有390萬人口你要提供的這個病床數的話也要有13000床對不對所以本席在這邊提醒主委的是臺北有9家的醫學中心就有1萬個病床那你現在桃竹苗有390萬人這個病床數會不會過低啊比例原則"},{"start":6795.419,"end":6800.147,"text":"是不是?是,因為這個都一直在討論,因為醫學中...所以要再檢討?所以你要調整啊?是不是?"},{"start":6803.203,"end":6804.524,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":6834.065,"end":6841.371,"text":"這個4萬多的這個社會住宅是從中央加地方嗎?還是只有中央直接清建?因為你加了直接兩個字"},{"start":6843.089,"end":6861.242,"text":"只有算中央的地方不算嗎?中央加地方所以你們中央會補助嗎?不然是土地還是新建的工程?未來我們可能會規範如果這個土地用徵收的方式的話會保留大概5%來建造這個社宅的部分那就土地有空出來的話那就盡量趕快來施作這樣子你認為會達到嗎?這4萬?"},{"start":6865.525,"end":6886.162,"text":"因為設宅最麻煩的就是說土地難找那如果說有區段開發以後那如果真的有土地的話﹖所以本席再次提醒你因為現在來講的話你說這8年要完成42,250戶嘛那現在的話地方加上中央喔只完成了已經完工的話只有4000"},{"start":6888.904,"end":6891.807,"text":"505戶新建跟絕標要開工的規劃的當中才有11122戶所以你這個8年要完成這4萬多戶你做得到嗎?"},{"start":6900.347,"end":6928.729,"text":"內政部當然有做過一些估算不過他是希望說這4萬多戶至少在8年裡面開始動工陸續完成這樣子是 所以本席的提醒就是你在交通也好在社宅在整個產業醫療的量能裡面你一定要跟橫向溝通各部會地方來做一個預期的施工或者是效率的規劃都要把它做出來才能帶動產業的預期的效果達到你的目標好不好"},{"start":6929.369,"end":6937.155,"text":"最後要問的就是電價雖然說明天我們稍微有排電價那請問一下現在說預估電費會長10%那本席請教諸位那物價會長多少%"},{"start":6944.782,"end":6967.079,"text":"因為電價最後的決策我沒有參與,所以我...你是審議委員會小組裡面的成員欸我不是我不是你不是,可是國發會是行政院物價穩定小組的成員你是負責研究分析國內物價的這個情勢的欸怎麼會不是呢但是我不是啦"},{"start":6967.939,"end":6977.486,"text":"可是你組織裡面是嘛 對不對所以你們要負責啊所以你們評估好請問評估怎麼可以不跟你討論你是主委欸所以現在要漲10%了嘛那好你們研究分析要漲價你們還沒有去評估去檢討去做個討論嗎好討論的結果呢物價會漲多少"},{"start":6993.798,"end":7015.529,"text":"因為過去的經驗來估算來講的話如果長10%的話那直接會反映物價賽大概是0.1%多0.1%多你這麼樂觀只會長0.1%多這個成本的反彈的效果是很大的那是直接啦那後續當然會有延伸性的一些波動性的效果"},{"start":7017.17,"end":7032.086,"text":"主委,請您要重視,現在人民苦了那麼久了,現在你們要苦民所苦啊,這物價如果去穩定,讓人民好生活好不好?"},{"start":7032.99,"end":7044.235,"text":"你們一定要覺得,你們不要感覺說零點幾而已啊我們百分之五都有可能嘛直接的部分是百分之零點一二嘛阿如果加上延伸性效果是零點以下"},{"start":7048.097,"end":7048.797,"text":"接下來我們請鄭政權委員請做詢談"},{"start":7081.735,"end":7084.34,"text":"主席,我想請到公主委我們再請公主委"},{"start":7091.408,"end":7117.423,"text":"主任好在你去接經濟部之前的時候你在國發會主委的時候我一定要好好去問一些跟國發會涵蓋面有關的一些問題首先第一個我想問一下跟人口政策有關因為台灣的整個高齡化情況非常嚴重從1993年變成高齡化社會之後走了25年變成一個高齡社會可是預計再走7年到明年我們就會變成超高齡社會"},{"start":7119.004,"end":7134.977,"text":"這個情況就是整個高齡化的嚴重程度比日本走得還要快那我在想說這個裡面其實牽涉到的問題很多我先簡單問一個部分在整個國防會在做的一個"},{"start":7136.938,"end":7153.266,"text":"提高少子化的一個策略當中的時候有很多種不同的步驟可是問題是我發現的在整個國發會的一個推估值就是在2023年推估值"},{"start":7155.387,"end":7174.659,"text":"我們推估值有高中低嘛我們2023年的人口出生數已經比我們的低推估值還要低了就表示我們低推估值是14萬人可是我們低於14萬變成13萬5千人所以在這個狀態之下的時候我們的推估模式是不是有問題"},{"start":7177.782,"end":7204.179,"text":"整體的部分因為他還要除了整個人口推估除了這個出生的部分來講的話那還有一些是移民的部分還有死亡的部分那因為現在死亡的部分來講就是說因為我們有推估值我們有高中低的推估值連低推估值都沒有涵蓋在裡面所以表示我們的推估模式可能是有問題的我們兩年會檢討一次"},{"start":7206.981,"end":7231.307,"text":"那我在想說針對這個部分我就很具體提到一個狀態就是有關於那個居家保姆的問題因為你要怎麼樣子讓年輕人感生願意生有很多很多的面向那對於整個保姆問題這邊我就直接提出一個主張就是說針對我們現在居家保姆我們一年的那個保姆獎助金是一萬兩千元對不對"},{"start":7232.662,"end":7237.63,"text":"有沒有可能就平均一個月才一千元有沒有可能提高到一個月兩千元"},{"start":7240.797,"end":7268.45,"text":"這個部分應該是衛福部嘛我們可以跟衛福部來做一些討論當然這個方向怎麼樣提升保姆的人力這個我們也是覺得方向是好的方向好那國主委那這個部分就請跟衛福部這邊好好去做溝通一下因為我覺得居家保姆的保姆獎助金其實真的偏低啦我們再看一個數字這50歲以上的保姆超過6成阿他跟我們老齡化的情況不相上下接下來"},{"start":7269.15,"end":7289.184,"text":"要願意做居家保姆的人越來越少所以我們必須要有更好的鼓勵機制那麼同時本席這邊也主張希望就是國發會除了說跟衛福部溝通居家保姆的每個月的獎助金提高之外的時候還能夠按照各縣市居家托育服務收費基準"},{"start":7290.324,"end":7313.415,"text":"來比照我們司法院民事執行他們所依據的每月必須生活費用去調整而不是固定每個月都一千全國到位臺北市也許應該要高一點因為整個生活必須高新竹市也許應該要高一點因為他的生活那個物價只追臺北市好不好我們針對這部分是不是能夠去做一個比照而不是"},{"start":7314.415,"end":7339.454,"text":"對於人工生殖的部分目前大家在推可能單身女性跟同性女同志的家庭共主家庭的時候是能夠去做人工生殖你知不支持?"},{"start":7340.419,"end":7361.254,"text":"我支持支持齁對你覺得這應該也是一個能夠去解決我們少子化問題的解決方式之一嘛對不對是OK齁好那我接下來再問一個齁就是之前在COVID-19的時候那我們國發會這邊有成立一個紓困資料上傳與比對平台對不對齁"},{"start":7364.614,"end":7384.838,"text":"去年8月的時候省基部出了一個資料就是針對我們這個輸控比對的平台裡面有65,871件產生了一些失誤那我們去追了現在還有19,687件還沒有追繳回來這個部分我們後續要怎麼樣處理"},{"start":7391.314,"end":7404.504,"text":"應該還是要持續追繳啦因為當初是為了方便人民就是很急的時候我們就盡量寬鬆盡快的趕快把這個需求發出去嘛那如果有重複請領的狀況當然我們還是要追回來"},{"start":7408.286,"end":7426.491,"text":"這個部分因為時間有限我想說因為這個平台我們希望以後不會要用到可是如果再發生的時候我們希望不要發生因為以前發出的更迷民眾了還要把民眾追回來民眾心裡一定圈圈叉叉一大堆一定很不爽然後同時會增加我們另外部會的工作量"},{"start":7427.311,"end":7429.794,"text":"如果前面做得好的時候就不會有後續追稿的問題"},{"start":7446.231,"end":7461.224,"text":"這個部分我們希望完善之後不要再發生這樣的事情徒增大家的困擾接下來就是針對桃竹苗大細股的一個計畫這個計畫我相信所有桃竹苗的民意代表都非常非常關切那裡面有幾個關鍵的數字"},{"start":7463.986,"end":7490.265,"text":"4年6兆產值14萬個工作人口然後有7個科學園區52個產業園區會增加42,250戶的社宅我覺得這是整個桃樹苗大細股這個方案當中我覺得幾個重要的數字那我想特別請教一下就是我們7個科學園區跟52個產業園區是不是都已經找好地方了"},{"start":7491.065,"end":7491.586,"text":"有多少在新竹市?"},{"start":7498.577,"end":7527.124,"text":"這個我可能要...我是不是會後再整理給那個委員那會後之後我就請主委這邊的時候再準備相關的資料到本辦公室來做一個說明那因為在這當中的時候還有特別提到了有關於社宅的部分我這邊提出一個數字在新竹市跟竹北這兩個地方就是新竹科學園區跟生醫園區從民國88年到113年這25年的時候大概增加7萬個工作人口"},{"start":7528.084,"end":7545.29,"text":"人口數大概增加25萬人所以我們預計這14萬人工作人口他到時候會怎麼分配是不是有一個具體的一個那個配置的一個計畫大致上同樣的也都會有一併我們大概的估算也會送給委員"},{"start":7546.17,"end":7567.191,"text":"稍後再給本辦公室一個很詳細的資料因為我看到在我們這大矽谷資料當中的裡面有一個特別提到了一個X計畫的部分算是一個都會型的一個園區配套那之後還會不會有繼續在新竹市有類似X計畫的一個推動"},{"start":7570.132,"end":7594.246,"text":"會 原來的這個周邊的地方會先開始好 那我們就之後希望因為在那個整個X計畫附近還有很多的特定農業區我們要如何去解決相關的問題我們到時候請那個主委再一併來那我最後再問一個狀態在大溪谷這計畫當中的時候它對於桃園新竹捷運道路規劃"},{"start":7595.247,"end":7595.327,"text":"新竹市"},{"start":7615.307,"end":7618.648,"text":"大溪谷計畫當中會不會把這兩條線再做更多的一個延伸?"},{"start":7636.704,"end":7637.144,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":7665.197,"end":7687.873,"text":"主席,本席想邀請主委。親共主委。主委,你什麼時候要去當經濟部長?我沒有接到這樣的訊息。那你笑咪咪啊,是不是真的確定了?沒有沒有,真的沒有。因為今天的媒體啊,顯然你是呼聲最高。"},{"start":7689.278,"end":7691.859,"text":"有沒有人告訴你?你有沒有這個人生規劃?請問經濟部長這個職務,你有沒有人生規劃?"},{"start":7707.489,"end":7731.171,"text":"報告委員我覺得現在我們就是因為現在很急的就是明年的這個預算現在要趕快掀起作業要籌備請針對本期的提問再來請問你來當國發會主委的時候有沒有這個人生規劃你說國發會主委嗎對國發會主委當初是你有沒有這個人生規劃當初是希望可以盡一份力國發會主委所以這是有規劃是嗎"},{"start":7733.072,"end":7734.794,"text":"臺中市航太工具機零組件光電面板自行車零組件"},{"start":7759.77,"end":7779.776,"text":"木工機械、手工具等這些產業的聚落非常重要的重鎮臺中市經發局非常努力在統計我們一年臺中展覽大概有60檔次但是我們目前最大的檔次就是烏日高鐵旁邊當然它的設備是臨時的還是不足的而且它的櫃位只有1107位真的是不足"},{"start":7787.498,"end":7791.439,"text":"在這樣的情況之下我們為了要打開整個產業的知名度跟買家這非常重要要協助我們的產業界所以因此我們還要怎麼樣呢因為設備不足我們要北上或者是拎著皮箱或者是要花了很多的成本到國外去參展那這個會影響到我們的產業的一個發展所以我們要有更完整"},{"start":7816.323,"end":7835.657,"text":"獲獲獲獲"},{"start":7835.677,"end":7858.734,"text":"台灣貿易業跟國際舞臺最重要的一個平臺非常的重要所以本期要請教主委在臺中水南國際會展中心西側的展廣案我們一期的部分臺中市政府非常的積極而且進度超前那二期的部分我們在2月5日經濟部"},{"start":7860.555,"end":7888.251,"text":"也已經在2月5日發函給你們所以也就是中央跟地方當然非常的團結在這2級的部分那請問國發會你目前的這個審查進度如何謝委員的提問我們大概3月5日就是今天是3月6日昨天對那3月6日他們因為我昨天大概在立法院我今天如果回去的話我可能就會批已經批出去了已經批出去了"},{"start":7889.714,"end":7914.643,"text":"講正確的信息給我們是已經批出去了批什麼內容呢就是韓府行政院韓府大院嘛對我們同意那就是最後的一里路嘛對要趕快確認你的內容審查的結果是什麼呢我們原則同意啊原則同意什麼呢就是他現在所有的相關規劃他的規劃我看一下你已經批出去你不了解內容你不能這麼糊裡糊塗啊"},{"start":7916.859,"end":7936.332,"text":"這是我們中部地區非常重大而且是全國最重大 內容是什麼對 那它主要就是帶動中部地區發展 這個滿足中部地區的會展需求 那跟台中水南的東側它可以產生一些加成效果西側的計畫內容是什麼 計算多少"},{"start":7938.53,"end":7946.897,"text":"預算是60億左右60.31億畢竟實行的時間呢本來我還認為你來當部長應該是非常nice你連這麼重大的一個重大案件到了立法院的質詢台竟然沒有辦法回答這個太離譜了"},{"start":7966.793,"end":7978.579,"text":"這個是我們全國舉目在看的啊你是國防會主委欸不要搭配所問本席提問的是內容你們竟然審查過我們跟經濟部、台中市政府這麼努力"},{"start":7989.432,"end":7998.595,"text":"一定要經過你然後我們才能夠提到這個行政院最後一里路你內容不知道浪費了我一分鐘的時間要扣除怎麼可以如此太離譜了國發會你要加油這麼重大的一個案子你批出去你內容不知"},{"start":8012.693,"end":8029.859,"text":"我給你拜託 這個務必要達成成功 我們地方非常的重視在哪裡 是你批的 你這個回答沒有辦法有人接受副主委代批出去的 因為我昨天在立法院"},{"start":8031.4,"end":8047.757,"text":"就是我們為了趕時間嘛 這個游副主委有代表你不要管控 你要管控 經過你國發會出去的內容你不知道 你的穆納波給你嗎 這麼重大的案子 我們地方這麼重視"},{"start":8050.326,"end":8055.893,"text":"難道你對於我們這個案子不重視嗎?重視不知道內容因為同事他們大概就會跟你爭執這個也沒有什麼意義重點是我們要盡速完成好嗎?"},{"start":8069.028,"end":8091.501,"text":"因為這個我們都要非常積極的需求而可以幫助我們整個的產業所以本席建議我們主委真的你是管控我經常說你是國家很重要的頭腦跟靈魂指揮者重大的案件才要到你這裡重大案件問了一問三不知這個讓委會憂心啊"},{"start":8096.038,"end":8123.754,"text":"不能再苛責但是一定要鼓勵你要去調整你們的腳步重大工程你不知這個是會扣分的好不好所以拜託你昨天批出去然後就給行政院嘛這個副主委代批出去就給行政院嗎對對對是不是120年完成121年完成你們預估這樣行政院上去還要多久再回復回來"},{"start":8125.817,"end":8138.685,"text":"我們通常因為我們批了大概就是支持嘛通常啦通常會不會有太多的意見對那大概會多久時間會回覆回來因為他他還以往以往以往啊"},{"start":8140.561,"end":8143.663,"text":"也就是我們台中水南國際會展中心西側的展館案"},{"start":8168.357,"end":8175.785,"text":"主委你全力支持我們一起來追行政院競速合併好不好當駐產業對不對好不好接下來本席要請問你們去年這個整體公建的預算是6500億你的這個達成率是96%但是今年"},{"start":8190.459,"end":8197.867,"text":"你是這個7800億可是你的達成率反而是下降你自己制定是95%為什麼呢因為我們要看那個國內的那個未納量公建的這個供應的能量這是一個"},{"start":8207.077,"end":8220.537,"text":"第二,我們今年的重點可能會放在就是那個公件的實質上的內容上比如說他是不是用比較近鄰的公法啦或是等等的一些情況來做一些要求"},{"start":8223.625,"end":8249.438,"text":"但是我們整個政府是要加速進行轉型的願景啊你竟然拿這個理由來告訴我你下降1%的原因那這個你跟行政院在打架啊也不是啦,就是那個務實的去估算拿來努力啦對,因為在這裡都錄音錄影我還是希望你要務實的回答"},{"start":8250.478,"end":8250.498,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":8266.043,"end":8279.094,"text":"長期必須要達成的目標這個是你必須要有分階段的KPI出來他不僅是整個政策的引導也要定期的來檢討達成的情況你才能夠真正的去完成這樣子的一個具體執行"},{"start":8287.381,"end":8294.589,"text":"你不能拿行政院的目標來打壓你自己下降我們會盡力啦你當然要盡力啊 善期會當然要盡力啊最後一個議題就是說你現在這一頁裡頭所說的是以國防會主委"},{"start":8312.184,"end":8317.476,"text":"國內穩定能源價格你是以電價照顧民生對不對"},{"start":8319.618,"end":8344.328,"text":"穩定物價、節約能源這三個原則來進行調控如果到目前為止現階段是不宜調漲這個電價的所以我希望這是您寫出來的不管你在什麼職位還是要以這個原則來照顧民眾穩定物價、照顧民生、節約能源"},{"start":8346.209,"end":8347.13,"text":"接下來我們請陳昭明委員"},{"start":8371.107,"end":8376.989,"text":"我們請陳昌明委員請做詢答首先有請我們的廣州委我們再請廣州委 謝謝那我們到現場還有我們的陸委員 詢答結束之後我們再休息 謝謝"},{"start":8400.932,"end":8401.353,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8414.963,"end":8440.277,"text":"當然國會會的責任非常的重大也跟經濟的發展關係跟我們整個社會都是息息相關但是我第一個問題首先要請教你那今夏海域大陸快點撞牆發生事件到目前都沒有共識而且兩岸的敵意越來越深那你認為如果再這樣繼續下去"},{"start":8442.579,"end":8468.998,"text":"會不會被取消?對臺灣的經濟影響有多大?但是你永遠要記得臺灣跟大陸香港的順差是1500億美金那你又沒有什麼心理的準備還是取消就給你取消反正也已經1月1號開始關稅也提高了一部分好像沒有影響但是我記得10萬億基金都是"},{"start":8470.439,"end":8498.221,"text":"哀苦連天的,阿您有沒有什麼對策?巴委員我想那個驚嚇事件它是一個意外事件都不應該影響到...你有沒有準備啦,那事情就發生像我們院長,天有不測的風雲隨時要改變怎麼樣不過聽你這麼講好像那沒關係跟你沒事加強注意一下院長交代的天有不測風雲什麼變化大家都不曉得"},{"start":8499.397,"end":8525.512,"text":"第二個我看到你跟國界聯繫的關係第一個就是臺美21世紀的創意那我看的內容大概我們是臺灣配合美方再來你最主要的貢獻就是跟英國啦跟歐洲東歐的連結在一起那這裡面當然講的都是功勞我第一個問你ECO其實這個問題要特別注意"},{"start":8526.496,"end":8539.142,"text":"我第二個問題要問你在這樣的狀況CPTPP你們到現在也沒有一點消息也沒有聯絡這是台灣非常要中日進入的一個國際的貿易組織雙邊的一個協議多邊的協議"},{"start":8544.198,"end":8555.251,"text":"可能看起來都沒有進展所以你們不敢在這邊聽你的看法怎麼樣因為這個是非常重要的協議經濟貿易協議我覺得你沒說什麼"},{"start":8559.716,"end":8586.101,"text":"等一下歐洲人要有融資要有投資有幾家那個資料也給我一下那昨天又看了你新聞你又來一項的基金國外會準備40民間準備60這個內容也讓我了解一下你的動向在哪裡讓我看看你抓的準不準還是有某種目的而為而去做的一個關係一定是為了台灣好啦那再請那個委員幫我們指導"},{"start":8588.721,"end":8602.798,"text":"我不敢主導我是多看資料了解一下整個狀況今天很多委員都在談到大矽谷計畫就是逃職職苗科技走廊產業"},{"start":8605.64,"end":8627.204,"text":"指揮,我在經濟委員兩屆跟你的關係應該是不錯吧?還是你對我有歧視?我問的絕對有道理啦!表面是啦!其實你不是對我不怎麼好啦!我跟你講,現在總統發表大西谷計畫在哪個地方發表?"},{"start":8633.071,"end":8643.281,"text":"我沒有記起來你沒有記起來我提醒你在苗栗縣發表我本來預計贏了三萬五千票結果他一發表我變成只贏兩萬票"},{"start":8644.81,"end":8666.307,"text":"因為自然科學研究都都是我在推動完成而且我一直在推動苗栗的產業研究但是我今天看了你的資料讀了一下我也莫名其妙你今天國外為所有提出來了就是講到桃園就是講到薪酬"},{"start":8667.341,"end":8689.339,"text":"其實我們賴總統他最主要大細股的計畫是要在苗栗推展你桃園人口已經那麼多了剛剛我聽到李委員什麼道路要開闢、薪酬要開闢我苗栗裡面你都沒有跟我談到一樣你對我哪一點好不要看資料來不及"},{"start":8690.384,"end":8711.954,"text":"議員："},{"start":8712.214,"end":8733.804,"text":"我每次邀請你去到苗栗你都幫我記解都派副主委去跟我交代一下你不要去苗栗我問你你去苗栗我不知道你也不要說我看你是不去的你都往大都市跑所以你沒有深圳低層你的地方創生就是要鄉鎮平衡的"},{"start":8734.67,"end":8752.285,"text":"阿我今天為什麼會把這個主題引來這邊你說對我不臭我就不相信阿阿那個是你去參加檢查的你也要跟我邀功,在我的地方你還跟我邀功,你實在滿夠的阿你這樣不夠深準,來"},{"start":8763.629,"end":8787.661,"text":"你現在要產業延期要1600公頃如果你內參的資料你延期給我花8、5公頃你也不要給我求延期的人那你我不曉得當經濟部長你這個產業發展室都還有那個什麼產業延期外我早就已經帶著他們去"},{"start":8789.397,"end":8789.837,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8811.489,"end":8831.48,"text":"現在科學園區的是150公頃,產業園區的另外是145公頃我告訴你,你如果真的對我好,你跟我到一趟苗栗電廠在通修火力化電廠全部供應北部的電"},{"start":8832.481,"end":8838.97,"text":"苗栗5座水庫都給臺中用,我們要收回來一些。其實慈蘭討論的海線地帶是發展"},{"start":8843.081,"end":8866.182,"text":"科技產業走廊最重要的地帶,剛好連接著臺中科學營區連在一起,不長不遠都是很近的,尤其孜然頭雲跟新竹科學營區幾乎是連在一起的,你看那地方嘛,你跑到,不是啦,桃園你要啦,但是不能太多。"},{"start":8867.043,"end":8892.754,"text":"垃圾成箱的差距苗栗是最重要發展地帶的您多多觀察我看你的道路建設都是在桃園新竹我表在哪裏不你給我講有啦就是說表在地帶你講國道1號的陽梅道頭份的拓寬工程那個拓寬工程合定了你沒了解我那邊西濱高加化也已經合定了"},{"start":8893.554,"end":8915.323,"text":"這是六十一號的這個平交道的那個平面道路齁,怎麼樣去讀?平交道的平面道路齁,六百萬是在高高的拆拖,那是雙軌化,你國外會沒有關到平交道的問題啦,所以你讀法表就沒法改。我們苗栗非常重視這個大矽谷計畫。"},{"start":8918.084,"end":8943.802,"text":"我們的賴清哲總統宣布大矽谷計畫是在苗栗縣宣布的害我受損很多但是為了地方繁榮發展我只有忍受下來所以我希望你在這一兩個月有空跟我到苗栗一趟半天就可以我給你點出苗栗的優勢苗栗是佔的地利苗栗的競爭力在哪裡好不好但是"},{"start":8944.982,"end":8948.065,"text":"我對苗栗的支持比如說那時候衛福部提到的這個國會議員他要蓋二廠的時候"},{"start":8967.921,"end":8993.627,"text":"不說惡劇馬上就批那個是疫苗你只有那個地方可以蓋那以前是我爭取過來的我跟你講我們要好了你不怎麼重視你只重視桃園只重視新直線只重視新直市所以跟我下一趟到苗栗我一定好好帶領好好給你了解苗栗的優勢優勢率在哪裡好不好地方配合款我們都沒有要求苗栗"},{"start":8994.227,"end":9000.952,"text":"謝謝,接下來我們請賴瑞榮委員請做詢答賴瑞榮委員詢答結束我們休息10分鐘那我們本會這一次的會議我們中午就不休息一直到我們會議結束謝謝,請發言好,謝謝趙委員齁,請廣州委我們再請廣州委"},{"start":9026.889,"end":9040.794,"text":"公主委辛苦了謝謝也謝謝你對這個國家的付出跟對整個辛苦了我想首先還是先關切今年的這個臺灣的經濟狀況看來在整個緊急的燈號其實持續的好轉到綠的那大概是終結過去17個月之後再次的綠燈那主委怎麼看接下來臺灣的整個經濟狀況包括緊急狀況是"},{"start":9055.143,"end":9075.622,"text":"委員您這邊的資料也可以看到就是12月份到1月份這邊所有的這個燈號除了這個出口之外還回到這個綠燈之外其他的都是變好的燈所以可以看到說它比較是一個全面性的指標不是單一指標產生的變化所以為什麼一次會增加5分就是這個意思所以"},{"start":9076.963,"end":9102.325,"text":"這樣的情況它會比較穩當所以為什麼我們對於2月份來講的話還是相對樂觀的意思就是這樣不會又會掉回去不會這樣的情況所以今年大概都會維持這樣的趨勢嗎現在看起來是這樣子是這樣子的那現在大概世界各國也估計台灣的這個經濟成長率大概是2.7到3.43那主計總署也估計大概是3.43主委就你個人的角度你怎麼來看待這個"},{"start":9103.3,"end":9120.785,"text":"是,因為我們覺得主席總書這樣的調整是有它的基礎,利潤基礎存在,而且它也是預估值,它是最近的預估值,因為看到了這個1月份的一些相關變化或2月份的相關變化,所以它有這樣的估計,所以我們對於3.43是"},{"start":9123.826,"end":9143.321,"text":"是相對樂觀的,甚至有可能會比這樣有更好的一些狀況的在後面再觀察,但至少3.43主委是認同這樣的一個的那另外我也想請教,國內外的局勢狀況下,後面有沒有什麼樣的一些變數,除了裡面有報告上有提到,有沒有什麼特別是國內一些因素上是我們特別要去注意的"},{"start":9144.258,"end":9145.519,"text":"國內的部分我們就"},{"start":9174.474,"end":9180.683,"text":"看起來現在就是持續來盡量至少就我們國發委來講的話我們如果要將這個順利的話"},{"start":9184.474,"end":9211.834,"text":"去年編的預算我們就盡量的把它真的去落實包括我們現在推動的六大海星戰略產業啊、競雲還有數位轉型的一些推動我倒是有點擔心現在國內我當然也希望是短期的就國內的包括現在不管是國會的一些狀況或者是整個政局的狀況我倒是有些擔心這樣狀況會不會影響到國內未來的經濟表現就政治性的一些因素是不是可以無縫接軌對,我們期盼這一任跟下一任的政府對,就是順利的啦"},{"start":9212.234,"end":9231.614,"text":"所以這8年來有一些好的一些經濟上的成果也來自於整個很順利的...所以我剛才為什麼特別提到我們現在就是除了我們盡量的執行已經框定的預算之外那明年的預算我們現在就要開始籌編了就是先起作業要不然的話新任的政府520上任以後到8月份他可能會來不及"},{"start":9232.014,"end":9247.586,"text":"我們現在會做好第一輪的這個先進作業所以從這個角度講也沒有所謂什麼看守內閣這樣的問題就該作為的事情但必然要作為嘛難道到520之前的時候政府也是該做不做就是一定要持續來做同時間在520之後的能夠快速的銜接上去"},{"start":9248.547,"end":9270.477,"text":"沒有任何停下來的空間也必須要加快那我也請教一下其實大家在關心包括電價明天有一個電價的報告那因為電價包括國際的能源的這個原料的一些跟國內的採購的成本其實有很大的落差所以台頓的虧損我們也想辦法來做一個解決那電價看來漲是有一定的壓力在的"},{"start":9270.677,"end":9288.454,"text":"那這個對於未來我們的這個CPI我看一下報告上面也都有寫到大概原來估1.79其實算是這一段有點降了但是如果再加上0.12的話可能到1.91那剛剛早上主委有提到甚至有一些延伸性的效果的話有可能到2甚至到3這個這樣的狀況0.2、0.3"},{"start":9293.719,"end":9318.516,"text":"總體上會到有可能過到2那這樣的話對整個這樣的狀況主委怎麼看待所以我們為什麼這個物價的這個有一個小組就是穩定物價小組對穩定物價小組所以還是會持續的關注看看有沒有一些配套措施現在就是說有一些源頭的這個原料價格原料的這個關稅等等的一些情況是我們"},{"start":9320.96,"end":9339.382,"text":"我看到主委裡面有一個穩定國內物價也是你的重要的包括你的風險跟因應的工作那我問一下主委那當然接下來這也是要去面對我想問一下主委整體來看因為當然台電包括電價的問題的話主委整體來看你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":9340.163,"end":9366.652,"text":"要不要試著做一些調整那調整後對整個CPI的整個影響上怎麼去做一個好的對因為現在主義總數預估的大概是1.85那當然因為現在電價還沒有做最後確定假設假設電價如果有調升的話當然就會可能在2以上或以下這個2的話如果跟其他國家來比的話這樣的數字還是低還是低的所以應該是在可接受的一個範圍內現在全世界"},{"start":9367.432,"end":9368.193,"text":"主委同意這樣的看法嗎?"},{"start":9391.536,"end":9397.25,"text":"我想經濟部他會做一些考量對一些不同的產業他可能會有一些分眾的一些設計"},{"start":9399.632,"end":9425.305,"text":"我們也希望主委有機會在政府不要全部都只靠漲電價來做處理我覺得台電那個是要面對解決但是我還希望政府能夠給予一定的補貼進來的金費的補貼而是支柱那些我想用電大貨只是大廠它本身的獲利狀況好它來支付合理的不然你虧損都由人民來支付這也不合理就大的有那個付但是比較辛苦的民生這一塊的"},{"start":9426.445,"end":9426.565,"text":"對,就是說"},{"start":9438.447,"end":9455.566,"text":"原則上來講,照顧名聲還是很重要的部分所以這個原則還是會有這樣的原則穩定物價也是一個重要的工作但如果有機會透過不管是微調、電價、不管是政府的補貼我們也希望國發會能夠大力來支持"},{"start":9456.747,"end":9482.106,"text":"那再來我還是要回到講一下天使基金的部分其實主委也很重視啦那整個投資金額35.37億那甚至在上次有提到希望增加到百億這個我們很支持啦但是我也想講的是在上次也質詢過啦其實光北部跟南部其實有很大的落差我上次講過臺北市光增加了就59家而高雄是增加3家而最新的資訊的時候最近"},{"start":9482.807,"end":9482.847,"text":"會 這個部分"},{"start":9498.297,"end":9521.669,"text":"可不可以在下次的這個看到的時候有更顯出在南部不管是高雄、台南甚至嘉義有更好的一些成長的狀況現在就是說高雄的他來申請的案基本上都過現在就是說要把那個申請案把它擴大上次有跟主委提到要更多的輔導跟協助他們讓他們能夠更多的提案出來因為他們提案我們也都支持但我希望"},{"start":9522.589,"end":9540.528,"text":"所以為什麼在亞系的3.0我們會擴大這個部分就是這個部分增加這個注資因為我們有目標未來四年裡面獲得投資的金額要翻倍所以要有更積極的做法光如果主委講到百億的話"},{"start":9541.349,"end":9568.349,"text":"我希望這些南部的部分可以大幅的一個成長好不好這個對南部的這些會有很大的一個注意因為我看到你亞系3.0的架構整個也都提出來了不管是在AI這也是南部現在亞灣的一個重點項目還是你的新創不管是南部也有亞灣新創園包括矽谷的相關計畫在進行包括數位這一塊都在進行我也希望這一塊主委跟國防很有意識的去協助南部來做這個推動好不好我們希望看到很具體的一些成果我會持續追蹤"},{"start":9569.19,"end":9578.256,"text":"再來問一下上次有提到亞灣創新研發中心的進度主委當時跟我講一個月內會邀請高雄市政府的相關部會來做推動這個後來有結果嗎?"},{"start":9581.234,"end":9598.961,"text":"我們大概有相對的詢問各部會目前可能的設置狀況當然經濟部想說它也可以釋出包括睪丸二期的一些相關基地如果真的有成型的話我們就來...當時說一個月後會給我一個具體的結果 有消息了嗎?"},{"start":9605.461,"end":9629.951,"text":"我們在去年的時候是已經有給辦公室了那如果還要再補充資料那主委可不可以講一下有OK的嗎有要做這樣的推動嗎就是雅灣的創新研發中心現在就是我們可能還要再詢問高雄市政府他還有這個中小企業是不是有確定的那是不是請主委在兩個禮拜內給我一個具體的答案好不好來做這樣的一個設置的計畫好不好好謝謝主委謝謝"},{"start":9634.346,"end":9634.746,"text":"休息10分鐘"},{"start":9670.826,"end":9671.246,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9890.58,"end":9890.663,"text":"字幕提供"},{"start":9936.527,"end":9965.282,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9987.415,"end":9987.773,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10232.52,"end":10259.789,"text":"好,現在我們繼續開會請莊瑞雄委員請做詢答謝謝主席,有請我們國發會我們公主會好,我們請公主會主委好這個啊現在沒在經濟所以就比較少幫你忙著啦常常有一些少子化的問題"},{"start":10262.072,"end":10284.051,"text":"委員會再問我記得我去年上一次問的時候是去年9月針對傻子話的一個現象提出質詢那本席想再次來向你做一個請教就是說從1950年時代在我們台灣恐怕當初也都沒有去想到說會有求子不得將的一個窘境那個時候台灣的婦女平均一人生7胎"},{"start":10285.287,"end":10287.228,"text":"國民黨時代推行的政策都是維持一個降低人口的成長率適量的一個生育等等"},{"start":10306.716,"end":10326.603,"text":"那同一個時間裡面其實當時你是可以看到那個是德國、日本都早都已經開始注意到少子化的一個威脅並開始相關的一個對策那本席要指出來就是說台灣的一個少子化嚴峻或許因為我們意識的太晚我們差不多到了2010年左右才驚覺到可能是一個國安的一個問題而"},{"start":10330.005,"end":10345.531,"text":"2018 2018年才由我們國會統籌各部會來制定對策綱領並協調各個部會一起來努力但是就算說你去意識到並展開行動你去看日本2023年的新生兒人數是758,631人他比2022年還是減少了5.1%連續8年日本也創下統計以來最低的一個紀錄"},{"start":10356.676,"end":10370.996,"text":"韓國呢他過去為了解決少子化的一個問題啊他投入這個資源喔可怕6.6兆的新台幣那就是說280兆的一個韓元到了2023年這個特殊的一個出生率啊這個還是啊跌到0.72同樣"},{"start":10373.459,"end":10398.308,"text":"連續8年還是創限低日本如此韓國如此那少子化可以說是這已開發國家裡面必然面對的一個難題甚至本席都還認為說你這個你很難去根本去做處理那內政部日前公布了一個國安危機少子化浪潮的一個報告其中有提到了日本總生育率在1980年代是亞洲主要國家裡面的最後一名但是到了2005年開始"},{"start":10401.109,"end":10423.263,"text":"注意一攀升到首位可見我們的政策目標首先應該是說放緩少子化的一個現象先達到放緩然後再試著去根除少子化的一個現象那這麼多的一個經費的一個挹注可能大家也要去重新去思考這個其實它不是一種攝服"},{"start":10424.321,"end":10444.699,"text":"建物集開是一種投資是一種投資未來人口的一個問題這個嚴峻而且涉及的層面非常廣大我也知道說這個不是單一個部會就可以去處理必須要大家共同你像比如說國發會、勞動部、內政部、經濟部、衛福部、高通部、省際財政部相關部會可以著力的一個地方"},{"start":10445.64,"end":10470.686,"text":"我記得民進黨政府201616年當然開始各部會也提出了非常多的政策跟修法像是放寬、育嬰還有留職、停薪等條件0到6歲國家一起養提升公托準公托數量等營造一個友善養兒的一個育兒的一個環境的一個政策相關預算也大幅增加所以我要請教主委就是說現在網路上電話說現在在說的少子化就說啊我們的政府只創一個少子化辦公室只這幾年這樣你感到福氣"},{"start":10477.142,"end":10482.404,"text":"現在行政院林鄭委員有一個對策﹖就是少子化的一個對策﹖跨部會的一個對策﹖一個平台在討論這樣的事情﹖所以為什麼各部會都有相關的動作﹖為什麼那個預算會從過去的100多億現在已經超過1000億來協助生跟養的一個環境"},{"start":10506.499,"end":10512.765,"text":"那當然是一種投資啦,我要講的就是說,我們2018年你制定對策計畫以後,你現在也沒5年了啦你除了150年計畫調整規劃以外,是不是該有一個總檢討?而且你當年那個對策計畫是107到113年了,等於到今年而已,也沒了,那你的下一步呢?"},{"start":10529.261,"end":10557.189,"text":"現在已經就是我剛才特別提到的那個林政委那邊已經在處理這件事情這個其實喔這個真的是對未來一個投資本席再舉兩個例子我在內政委員會我也分別針對少子化的問題向原民會跟客會來提出詢問就詢問說自當年的少子化對策綱領制定以後兩個跟族群相關的部會是不是有配合提出任何的對策答案是沒有"},{"start":10558.342,"end":10578.372,"text":"答案是沒有所以我現在很高興的就是說像這個政策也跟不上你像譬如說去年同樣在內委會我們在修那個住宅法的時候啊修法的同時放寬政府住宅協助措施的經濟跟社會弱勢資格的時候我們從原有、預有3名以上的未成年子女現在調整這2名對不對但是呢當時我本席就認為說會不會真的要2名"},{"start":10584.415,"end":10590.7,"text":"我當然知道說因為數量的問題要定定一定的資格啦所以我要請到主委最後一個問題就是說國會現在享有當年統籌各部會制定少子化對策之名但對於各部會配合少子化的一個協調、溝通跟管道"},{"start":10610.534,"end":10626.045,"text":"我都打上一個問號是不是國會可以從上位的角度去思考說全盤人口政策怎麼樣去調整跟精進甚至於加積極跟努力成效未必會看得到但是發現那個方向是對的"},{"start":10627.21,"end":10627.27,"text":"委員會主持"},{"start":10652.365,"end":10653.166,"text":"接下來我們請賴世保委員請做詢答"},{"start":10686.843,"end":10691.544,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們的公主委我們再請公主委主委你好要不要先恭喜你要當部長是不是經濟部長沒有啦部長現在這大批誰比這大的沒影子的啦沒影子?沒影子阿如果真心鬧你勒沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦"},{"start":10718.63,"end":10722.271,"text":"還沒接到,會電話就對了喔!大家剛才這個專委員也是沒有關心的題目喔!少子化我們今年度預算投入1200億對吧!去年是1000億!"},{"start":10738.608,"end":10757.656,"text":"結果我們的出生率還是越來越低我們去年的人口出生數13萬死掉的20萬臺灣真的進入一個生不如死的世界今天大家都不要生不結婚1200億過去1000億效果都不好所以我就想到一個方法"},{"start":10767.613,"end":10773.256,"text":"鼓勵升第三台現金Cash給一百萬,可以嗎?來請回答,可以嗎?"},{"start":10782.403,"end":10788.346,"text":"我覺得任何努力都可以來做思考我告訴你我們現在財運不是問題財運什麼是問題我造算給你13萬出生人口有三胎的我們10%10%所以1.3萬1.3萬、1百萬你告訴我,多少啊?130億啊"},{"start":10809.929,"end":10823.561,"text":"我們額外的企業我們一千兩百億裡面博一百三十億、一百五十億鼓勵生第三胎第三胎一定要生第一胎、第二胎才在第三胎不是直接跳第三胎這這麼好的政策"},{"start":10828.442,"end":10829.544,"text":"我們會提到林政委的這個少子化對策平台我們會提"},{"start":10843.82,"end":10858.089,"text":"你知道民意代表常常跑這些紅白帖啊人家結婚的時候啊一結婚新人我就鼓勵他愛緊緊早生貴子多生貴子然後plus我就講這個證件吼掌聲如雷勒"},{"start":10859.107,"end":10884.114,"text":"我就問了 啊 我要生嗎 打那麼舉手 有的60幾歲也說要舉 要生 你說不是啊 我叫我媳婦生啦 我叫我女兒生啦 這個政策很受歡迎啦 你去基層跑看看 生第三胎給一百萬 大家吼就去找大女兒 掌聲如雷啊 很好的政策 這個反正是好的政策嘛 我想水雷吹都一樣 這沒有正常意思 第二個"},{"start":10886.268,"end":10894.174,"text":"聽說而且看起來是電價是漲定了這個陳院長都說他怎麼想到陳先生也不知道有有烏克蘭戰爭所以電一定要漲那台電講說漲11%的話就CPI影響到0.2%看起來台電是往這個方向走經濟部往這個方向走那個主委你要講一下嗎"},{"start":10913.38,"end":10916.082,"text":"總電價跟CPI之間有什麼影響?講一下給我們聽。"},{"start":10935.467,"end":10938.168,"text":"上漲率是比較高的。 是的啊。 那今年是降到?"},{"start":10938.168,"end":10943.751,"text":"三天以前不敢漲,選賭局批評要漲這個東西我算一個帳台電今年又要虧2000億喔然後原來資本額3300億那我們已經給他增加1500億了資本額4800又要增加1000億,5800的資本額可是台電的核四按照相關的規定他應該要報廢掉了"},{"start":10963.735,"end":10986.633,"text":"因為已經確定不起核四了嘛阿你做海膽股先去賣不知道賣什麼所以這2800現在是放在資產如果把這資產要拿掉的話他一定是急急可危阿就一天到晚就是你瞭解最後一點最後一點那個碳交易喔你們也是股東嘛對不對你們是股東嘛齁現在碳交易喔這個很奇怪勒"},{"start":10990.894,"end":11018.146,"text":"國內廠商不能買缺缺這個因為現在國際都要這個東西啊缺然後我們的碳交易只能買國外的好像Casino一樣好像你開個賭場阿對實質上的產業減碳都沒有幫助欸第二階段就會就是國內的碳會的供給就會出來第二階段什麼時候開始啊因為他現在還有什麼時候開始什麼時候他還有四個執法這個四個執法完成以後就什麼時候問問問"},{"start":11020.256,"end":11023.218,"text":"什麼時候?6月可以嗎?換新政府可以嗎?60天兩個月而已啊!欸!這個執法需要搞這麼久的時間喔!這效率也不一樣!"},{"start":11042.73,"end":11056.256,"text":"因為他的利害關係人非常多包括民間廠商還有一般群眾還有等等現在的你現在講說哎呀好像對於全世界講臺灣很注重這個淨零排放所以我們有探權交易結果都是假的啊因為只能只能對國外的探權進行買賣就一個Casino就是一個賭場還有賭的籌碼就是探權這樣而已啊這東西很滑稽啊這很滑稽啊"},{"start":11069.321,"end":11069.862,"text":"來釋法委員來釋法委員請舉過"},{"start":11098.686,"end":11098.986,"text":"中嘉賓委員請作詢答"},{"start":11124.662,"end":11151.51,"text":"主委好、處長好那主委請教一下因為請詹處長來是因為想問這個問題目前台灣的半導體在南部的生產越來越重要請問你知道台灣所生產的晶片大概南北的比例怎麼樣竹科、中科、南科還有在高雄以及未來在高雄的高雄煉油廠陳其邁市長已經把它清理要交給台晶電生產你覺得呢未來10年內的台灣的半導體晶片生產重心會在哪裡"},{"start":11152.298,"end":11155.483,"text":"目前包括南科的晶片是從哪裡出口的?"},{"start":11167.991,"end":11189.382,"text":"還是桃園機場?好,那我們來看一下,如果未來,未來我們的台灣的半導體晶片生產重心已經難移,那你覺得南部半導體的出口貨運需求的解約方案,就看那個小港機場嘛,那你認為需不需要再考慮這個問題,運輸的時間跟能量、量能,你覺得設立貨運機場還在擴建原來小港機場?"},{"start":11192.631,"end":11215.408,"text":"是,我想委員提到一個好的議題因為如果有多元的機場當然除了舊近南部可以提供他的一些facility之外那我想對於這個供應鏈的韌性也會有所幫助沒有錯,我們如果所有晶片都往淘機送在高速公路上耗費3個小時以上"},{"start":11217.011,"end":11236.367,"text":"那高速公路一塞車我們這個供應鏈就可能會斷鏈往下看齁我們來看一下目前台灣各機場貨運量齁淘機你看一下齁在客運的部分其他的機場加起來不到淘機淘機都占了一半以上這是客運那你覺得貨運呢台灣的貨運出口貨運在哪個機場最重要"},{"start":11238.302,"end":11238.623,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":11249.244,"end":11269.175,"text":"各位這樣講?對。差不多是這樣嗎?好,那我們看一下。再看看別的事情好了。你認為過去在疫情期間,我們的國際航空、華航跟長榮是賠錢還是賺錢?是賺錢,主要是貨運。對,你看,沒有錯。在110年跟11年,我看到的資料呢,華航在110年,它的"},{"start":11270.355,"end":11297.74,"text":"昨年呢,他的同年的貨運是當年客運的20倍啊在11年也有將近快5倍對不對表示這些國際航空公司他主要在疫情期間主要是靠什麼?靠貨運營收嘛再看看長榮長榮呢在11年呢他的貨運是客運的10倍到了11年呢也有快這個快8、9倍所以我們很清楚在疫情期間那現在呢現在這下"},{"start":11298.9,"end":11322.97,"text":"現在航空公司主要在國際航空公司主要是靠什麼?現在疫情已經過去了嘛。觀光人潮也回來了嘛。你估計大概是什麼情況?有沒有客貨怎麼樣比?現在貨的部分還是需求很大啦。還是大於客運的需求。為什麼客運有些班級沒有辦法提升?就是因為他轉成貨以後,比較不容易轉回來的,還是持續。就是說因為客運目前還是貨大於客。好,我們現在看。"},{"start":11323.59,"end":11351.317,"text":"但你看最近的新聞啊桃園機場稅修啊造成大塞機你覺得會塞的是什麼機?塞了客機就擋了貨機是不是這樣子?因為客人不能等嘛如果你是塔台你要讓哪個機先降?讓客機先起降嘛那這種情況之下我說過九成六的貨運是從桃機出桃機又以客運優先那當桃機稅修我們的出口就癱瘓了你覺得這樣有這個可能性?"},{"start":11353.533,"end":11356.295,"text":"現在好像班機要慢慢的恢復了其實目前呢 這個淘機的運﹑旅客的運能已經恢復了7成小港只有恢復5成 你覺得什麼原因"},{"start":11381.755,"end":11385.778,"text":"小港為什麼連客運都不想去?小港的問題在哪裡?"},{"start":11385.778,"end":11388.601,"text":"主委我跟你說啦小港的問題高雄的委員李博義委員在這裡很清楚"},{"start":11403.932,"end":11427.327,"text":"20小時不能20小時降貨機對不對貨機要20小時降居民抗議晚上太吵腹地不足你的貨機還有周邊的什麼倉儲轉運這些配套他都沒有所以最後的結論要出來了你覺得如果未來我們辦法體從高台南部出口的需求如果量很大的話是不是如果你把這個需求交給交通部交通部是要去評估在南部建一個貨運機場"},{"start":11428.348,"end":11456.957,"text":"包括說它的用地取得包括周邊產業規劃跟大眾運輸的接駁你覺得是不是要先把你的出口需求評估出來可以嗎可以那你是不是可以在一個月內把我們半導體從南部出口需求預估未來5到10年這個量估出來我好去澳洲交通部趕快就南部的貨運機場的運能做個評估可以嗎一個月夠不夠我們來試試看一個月評估未來5到10年台灣的半導體出口從南部出口的貨運需求好不好好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝處長謝謝主席"},{"start":11462.54,"end":11464.201,"text":"主席謝謝,麻煩請公主位我們再請公主位"},{"start":11486.022,"end":11499.382,"text":"主席,你好。兩個議題再跟你請教。第一,本期很認真嚴謹地看了一下今天的業務報告。但是我說實在話,方方面面都有寫到,但是到底核心跟重點是什麼?"},{"start":11500.163,"end":11528.571,"text":"我記得本期之前在經濟委員會的時候也請教過您就是說未來我們現在的施政不要只是看短期而是要先想國家長遠的政策發展包括經濟發展那其中有提到我覺得我們國家大家都在講說能源的部分尤其是你這邊也開宗明義就有講到說2050淨零碳排要來達成那2050淨零碳排很大的一個關鍵就是要降低這個火力發電嘛"},{"start":11530.933,"end":11548.426,"text":"對那火力發電的部分那你現在你們提出的一個方案是什麼還是用綠電跟再生能源再生能源還是很重要的一部分因為原來就預估大概在2050年的時候再生能源在我們的發電比例可能是6成到7成左右那但是"},{"start":11549.591,"end":11571.397,"text":"你就是要把那個火力發電降下來但是沒有辦法因為台灣的特殊環境你沒有辦法那麼多的再生能源那會透過CCUS的方式那我現在想請教就是說我們現在目標到底有沒有改變到2050年的時候我們再生能源的占比要到多少大概60到7060到70但你的這個解決方案你的再生能源包括什麼"},{"start":11572.342,"end":11597.172,"text":"所以說我現在看到的嘛就是你第9頁裡面有綠電跟再生能源嘛但是你提到的還是離岸風電然後太陽能板提到一些但是其他就沒啦我們現在在講是說過去國家已經投入那麼多的一個資源而且再加上風跟光最主要的大家考慮或是扛慎的最大關鍵是它不是一個穩定的能源來源"},{"start":11600.713,"end":11621.978,"text":"所以我們現在新興能源的部份正在研究開發的部份就是地熱的部份,因為一般預估對臺灣...對,氫能那在報告裡面的哪一頁?氫能它不在綠能裡面,它是另外...地熱或是氫能或是任何的能源在今天的報告哪一頁?"},{"start":11624.634,"end":11628.976,"text":"不是比較細你剛剛講2050的時候他要佔6成到7成換言之今天20、50、30有50的藍氣、30的藍莓、20的再生2050廢核家園你已經跳票了嘛"},{"start":11643.424,"end":11672.104,"text":"現在本席要講的是說我們因為今天是第一次的國發會來經濟委員會報告你照理講2024年的開頭應該是要有對於未來有一個完整化尤其是我們在去年前年也已經訂了2050淨零碳排的目標往前回推現在20幾年20幾年沒有很快沒有很久欸對其實馬上就到了欸對那所以說本席現在想要講的是說這個就是我們現在短視近利的一個狀況"},{"start":11674.405,"end":11700.419,"text":"你已經講了6層到7層要用再生能源本席也問您就是說你現在能源的部分大家都很擔憂那你現在提出來整篇報告裡面有提到能源的就是在第9月的綠能跟再生能源但是綠能的部分你們只強調說我們現在有做多少的離岸風電有做多少太陽能的部分可是對於其他隻字未提那你到底你要怎麼達成到底有沒有在我們現在的想法裡面"},{"start":11701.041,"end":11715.112,"text":"有阿有阿,就是我剛才特別提到,因為那個還沒有辦法三旋三轉,所以比較是示範性的,包括地熱,還有海洋團等等。不管是示範性或是規劃或是等等,你是不是應該現在已經著手要去執行動作?有有有,對。在哪裡?"},{"start":11718.184,"end":11745.159,"text":"因為今天的報告沒有辦法那麼多啦 因為那個非常非常多 最後我們可以提供 主委本席點出這個點 最主要就是希望說在整個國家的長遠發展 尤其我們現在如果說比較看 有一個進程的目標就有一個目標2050出來 那應該是往前回推 這一些都是我們現在應該關注的 對沒有錯 主委另外一個部分本席也看到了"},{"start":11746.704,"end":11769.395,"text":"你報告後面有講到我們國發會另外一個重要的議題就是國家的檔案管理所以你在最後第33頁用一個標題深化國家檔案開發禁用那整個一整頁的內容全都在講國家檔案那我覺得最重要的本席的選區有一個國家檔案管那你的報告勒?"},{"start":11772.844,"end":11773.444,"text":"2050就要落成"},{"start":11788.843,"end":11811.361,"text":"2025就要落成就明年要落成嘛 對不對在報告裡面隻字未提啊是現在沒有把握要開放是不是沒有我們進度來超前進度超前那為什麼整個這本期就好奇了一方面你剛剛講的是說哇那個太遠了地能什麼不夠成熟所以說我報告裡面沒有辦法寫那麼細那我現在有一個29億的投資20"},{"start":11814.403,"end":11841.908,"text":"19年通過並且20212011年招標出去本席那時候還協助來不管是說提高預算等等的結果你在報告裡面國家檔案館2025年要落成開放使用也隻字未提那讓本席擔心是不是有可能有跳票不會不會不會跳票進度超前這個委員那時候上樑的時候委員有來參加是所以說這就是讓本席好奇的地方是說你今天這個報告"},{"start":11843.632,"end":11863.692,"text":"有沒有認真仔細的在做不要以為這報告做出來大家沒在看我想我們立法委員的職責就是監督政府做得好你不要期待我們給你掌聲因為這本來就是公僕應該做但是做不好我們一定會提醒那2025年的國家檔案館以及本席再借用30秒本席也希望"},{"start":11865.011,"end":11891.502,"text":"本來我有一個臨時提案是希望要針對說我們國發會這邊要召集因為馬上就要落成了那地方的民眾也很關心尤其是在地方的社群媒體不管是那個圍牆的鷹架拆除大家就很期待那未來怎麼樣這個國家檔案館跟地方共榮共存並且有更多周邊民眾都可以一起來使用讓地方的人士也覺得是說有一個國家檔案館在我們地區是一個我們地方的光榮"},{"start":11892.222,"end":11921.407,"text":"我講這觀光感大家要提升還有包括說我們之後地方創生怎麼樣用國家檔案館當成是一個基地跟據點能夠帶動地方的地方創生我想這之後本席也會再提相關的提案決議那也希望在兩個月內可以由國發會這邊來召集我們地方以及新北市政府這邊來做一個開會討論好的可以嗎可以我們一起往這個方向來邁進好不好好謝謝主委"},{"start":11927.334,"end":11927.814,"text":"蔡議員請做詢答"},{"start":11961.023,"end":11971.467,"text":"謝謝主席。我們是不是有請我們國發會公主委那以及國土區域離島發展處的黃處長好我們請兩位主委這個現在我想那個主委很清楚齁台積電"},{"start":11989.728,"end":12011.124,"text":"應該他的封測場目前考量是在嘉義科學園區、太保的科學園區看起來考量而且經過一段時間的努力嘛那包括有所謂環境影響、環境差異評估的一些大概都布局都布局得差不多啦現在就整台基電對外定頭這樣是不是這樣"},{"start":12015.624,"end":12032.332,"text":"對 所以主委我想這個要很感謝啦很感謝包括我們國發會經濟部整個行政院事實上在於這一次台積電封測場在擇址然後在嘉義這個地方我們對於整個行政團隊我們很感謝但是我們也知道"},{"start":12032.992,"end":12048.883,"text":"因為要因應這樣的一個先進封裝廠要來,事實上還需要很多基礎設施的佈局,所以我想主委一定都很清楚。所以這個佈局包括說,未來這個先進封測,我想這很厲害,主委你想不想介紹一下這個先進封測?"},{"start":12055.687,"end":12070.277,"text":"因為它是比較先進,就是前端的,它不是成熟的是COAS那個部分COAS嘛,3D封測嘛,一定是說未來晶圓也得含其他的不同的晶圓它的計算模式,它把它包成從一個然後用立體式的方式然後把它變成這個晶圓的運算能力更多元而且它不會更產生熱然後去影響到它的整個的一個運算所以這台晶圓是很厲害的"},{"start":12084.828,"end":12105.268,"text":"他這樣的封測想要加益,所以我們可以想像啦,注意我現在說因為封測這畢竟大家都會說他怎麼會,那都比較未來的事我現在應該重點我們把它放在封測這樣的一個概念那如果是封測的話,未來就有很多先進的先進製程,他會進來太保"},{"start":12106.409,"end":12121.108,"text":"會進來嘉義科學園區因為他必須要做最後的封測封裝嘛 對不對所以未來就是說包括橋科包括南科他們家的金園就要運到嘉義然後做封裝然後最後再出口"},{"start":12121.849,"end":12122.55,"text":"稍後再出口"},{"start":12152.389,"end":12153.991,"text":"稍後的稍後的稍後的稍後的稍後的稍後"},{"start":12178.689,"end":12205.179,"text":"他也要有這個封裝封測的一個過程所以這是一個拜託主委家用國安會用比較上位的一個角度跟交通部溝通拔這個然後既然要拔我就提出了一個比較具體的建議就是說現在我們這裡的經援多少多少嘉賓就在我前面就先諮詢了他就說未來的出口我們這個先進的一些經援要出口就是一個很重要的一個導向"},{"start":12205.939,"end":12221.399,"text":"但是要出口我們就發現了從嘉義的水上機場、台南的機場、花蓮、台東的機場事實上這個有部分是軍民合用的機場小港機場也一樣事實上南部的機場有一個最大的問題就是宵禁"},{"start":12225.079,"end":12238.173,"text":"臺灣沒有宵禁的機場大概就只有桃園機場所以目前我們所有的會員求集中台基建機場的要快速運送的大概都要跑到桃園去運送成本太高"},{"start":12239.35,"end":12268.102,"text":"那如果咧,如果未來像我剛才所說的這樣我們的先進製程的,說要先在嘉義完成它的封測跟封裝的話我覺得主委,咱嘉義水上機場如果以它的先天條件,它在旁邊還有很大的一個腹地我們這個腹地咧,包括說它這個跑道的長度可以檢測目前嘉義的跑道長度已經跟台南是一樣大的,比小港還要長比花蓮也還要長,跑道長度是夠的"},{"start":12269.539,"end":12277.199,"text":"那這一個旁邊的周圍的戶地也夠那我們要不要來考慮正式把嘉義水上機場"},{"start":12279.046,"end":12299.706,"text":"把他提升未來以貨運為導向然後以貨機然後可以飛到瞬間可以最快的最短的成本運送成本最快速的把這樣的晶圓的一些製品運送到各國去咱是不是可以朝這方面來做一個佈局"},{"start":12301.148,"end":12325.384,"text":"對,委員剛剛跟總委員一樣就是可能南部要有一個這樣的一個機制設在哪裡我想我們再跟交通部來...當然當然,所以你們要去拼啦,你們去拼因為這個只要變成了國際的一個卡古機場啦最重要就是要取消宵禁,取消宵禁的話我們也知道說會面對居民,附近居民這要用心去溝通,因為這些居民要讓他們接受"},{"start":12330.028,"end":12335.078,"text":"所以我現在要跟你們說,相對其他地方,這裡有一個優勢,我們這叫做落後的優勢,我們這裡人比較少"},{"start":12339.6,"end":12348.606,"text":"你如果小工那些人很多,那可能就難處理。這是我們落後優勢,我們那些人現在比較少。所以我們是在說,既然未來要拼這個溝通,我們就有這個優勢。一來你們就評估一下,事實上這個東西,我從一個國際機場來我們酒瓶,當然站在那附近的人,他們會看不到。"},{"start":12361.215,"end":12381.692,"text":"他們說我們要在現建,我們這房地產要走,可能也有機會就走,在基中旁可是對於周遭的一個發展那就不一樣了,他就變成一個以貨運當然有貨運當然,現在貨運也是客運是減的,因為都廢棄港一家賣去的,減作費所以這也是一個很好一個,未來可以看得見的一個趨勢"},{"start":12389.998,"end":12406.708,"text":"新加坡航空公司加運送晶圓賺大錢這是去年底的一個新聞新加坡航空公司因為再送晶圓在全國缺晶圓的時候一直賺大錢"},{"start":12408.098,"end":12428.998,"text":"所以我覺得主委這部分你來拍一拍好不好我們來跟相關部會討論一下好那在第二個啦時間是很短的我就在講啦那講到了這個事實上布袋雷布袋三港這個阿姆朱毅說過一遍事實上你對這裡的環境也都很清楚"},{"start":12429.659,"end":12445.457,"text":"那我們現在所有布袋周邊的港因為外山頂洲的飄沙的一個問題讓我們整個布袋的漁港或者是東石所有的漁港事實上都沒有符合法定應該要到達的漁港的一個深度"},{"start":12446.428,"end":12446.748,"text":"稍稍稍稍稍稍"},{"start":12461.688,"end":12485.458,"text":"那有時打到頭,那時候就冰准,那是一個風險所以我具體建議啦,我們在於東石白水湖南側這裡有一個過去的一個溪湖,就是過去的柏山柏山的地方,這片非常大那我具體建議我們來做田沙造路,像過去我們布地那邊是新地"},{"start":12487.159,"end":12506.988,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12507.677,"end":12520.524,"text":"這個也是要主委講主委你也是站在這整個國土的一個台灣整個國土必須要可以有效的規劃像這個可以來做一個評估嗎?有這個以前的市府嘛"},{"start":12524.426,"end":12534.938,"text":"阿這以前就是我們祖先的培養的地方,阿現在因為培養不合,沒人在培養阿,所以這塊放在這裡培養的,你看培養多久了,阿所以這過去這裡也有補分,我一家企鵝阿啦,不然越來越淺,企鵝阿也逐一救他阿,所以這塊很不好,這樣我們真的每天三天照路,這樣好不好"},{"start":12544.108,"end":12544.628,"text":"接下來我們請黃國昌委員請做詢談"},{"start":12584.348,"end":12591.397,"text":"議事主委員請協助我們再請公主委"},{"start":12602.442,"end":12624.64,"text":"6年前我在經濟委員會開始做一個離譜到不行的弊案那個時候我一直搞不清楚我們的國發基金丟了15億給一家莫名其妙的公司叫如新我們的國發基金應該是要促進產業升級轉型結果去投了一家在做牛仔布代工廠的"},{"start":12625.796,"end":12650.045,"text":"媒體在批評我在立法院持續的追結果我搞不清楚這個盧欽啊背後到底是誰當靠山讓我們的國發基金投了15億下去讓他在台灣的投資市場騙廣大的投資人把錢洗到中國裡面去胡搞瞎搞我那個時候問陳美玲"},{"start":12650.905,"end":12661.775,"text":"所以您說投資評估過程嚴謹可遭公信請教一下今天的主委今天的國發會還會認為投資如新是過程嚴謹可遭公信嗎?對!所以這樣的一個結果你們今天看認為過程嚴謹嗎?"},{"start":12674.468,"end":12679.234,"text":"報告委員這個後來監察院他也有來調查當然也有給我們建議那當然這個案子監察院什麼時候調查的"},{"start":12693.39,"end":12716.975,"text":"應該是去年還前年就出來了等到出事才調查有什麼用我2018年站在這邊我一而再再而三的告訴國發基金有問題有問題趕快處理現在站在你旁邊的這位出來手帶著人到辦公室來跟我說國發會一定會處理處理了什麼什麼都沒有處理為什麼我敢這樣講"},{"start":12718.885,"end":12747.197,"text":"你們說重大投資案 過程嚴謹 調出會議紀錄 開什麼會啊不是代理 就是請假 典型的先設件再畫把這些人有開什麼會啊 結果最後的結果是什麼決策炒算 黑箱操作 財報造假 詐騙投資人把台灣無辜投資大眾的錢吸來了以後 洗到中國去污2018年"},{"start":12749.008,"end":12753.391,"text":"我一直提醒國家會是要處理,處理了什麼?處理了什麼?所以咧?派了代表以後然後呢?處理了什麼?請你告訴我,處理了什麼?所以你們到今天認為這是個人因素喔?"},{"start":12775.373,"end":12788.859,"text":"那個財報造假什麼時候造假的你知道嗎你知道嗎國發會投的時候就是假的了不是後來才是假的欸你們怎麼評估的那個財報當時來講是有報金管會當初已經看過的"},{"start":12795.692,"end":12810.682,"text":"所以呢?所以你們看過,經管會看過,大家分擔責任,最後誰要負責?所以嘛,我就問你嘛,你們那個時候採取什麼措施?我一而再再而三提醒國發會要處理,處理了什麼?我今天就問這個簡單的問題,處理了什麼?對嘛,那也是出事以後嘛,那是2022年的事欸,我拜託你啊,2018年"},{"start":12825.932,"end":12842.904,"text":"到2022年我離開立法院以後我跟崔少仁合作我們鍥而不捨在追蹤這個案件我就問你嘛2018年提起你們這件事到後來被起訴你們國發會幹了什麼派了董事去幹了什麼"},{"start":12847.171,"end":12851.658,"text":"我剛才已經說了阿就是說通訪中心有你什麼都沒有做阿我們跟著起訴阿對嘛那你是等到什麼東窗事發股票快要變幣子才被求償"},{"start":12860.171,"end":12885.318,"text":"你要跟誰求償啊?你可以求償到多少錢啊?我現在問你的是2018年國發會說要處理,處理了什麼?處理到最後?處理到最後?起訴了?人跑了?跑投保中心去求償然後你們國發會有臉跟媒體說我們比較倒霉是誰倒霉?是國發會倒霉還是納稅人倒霉?誰倒霉?"},{"start":12890.799,"end":12912.042,"text":"報告委員,所有投資基金的話我們要用總額來看單一案件的話當然我先一件一件算啦這個案子吸台灣投資人的錢洗到中國去被汙走你們到今天還不肯承認錯誤還在說比較倒霉這件事情有任何人被追究責任嗎?"},{"start":12914.209,"end":12915.87,"text":"可以消極怠惰到這種程度嗎?"},{"start":12944.989,"end":12969.839,"text":"你把刑事犯罪的刑事責任跟國發基金那個時候消極不作為可以火我一盤喔可以火我一盤喔這不就是當初你們決策錯誤嗎決策錯誤提醒你們叫你們要處理蘇萊索站在旁邊你帶著官員說國發會一定會處理我今天就問一個簡單的問題嘛你處理了什麼"},{"start":12973.403,"end":12996.948,"text":"還有臉跟納稅人講我們倒霉誰倒霉阿我要說錯嗎整體的國發基金每一年事實上他的獲益是兩百多億我們一件一件來看啦再下一個聯合再生如出一策當初新日光這三家合併前三年虧了一百多億"},{"start":13001.516,"end":13025.997,"text":"那個時候不是我質疑而已喔民進黨的立委民進黨自己的立委都在質疑為什麼要投資這三家虧損這麼嚴重的公司我們的國發基金成為紓困基金嗎為什麼要借錢給他們那個時候國發會的副主委鄭正茂說因為他們要轉型因為他們要升級然後呢"},{"start":13029.883,"end":13041.786,"text":"議員問他轉型升級完了以後認為他明年就會獲利對於投資聯合再生這家公司國發會今天的立場認為當初的決策是不是正確的?我就直接問啦聯合再生這個投資案是誰介紹的?"},{"start":13058.976,"end":13068.403,"text":"結果政政罵信誓旦旦的說投資完了以後一樣丟了快30億進去所謂的升級所謂的轉型國發基金錢進去了投資人跟著進去了聯合再生2019年開始到現在虧損了快140億"},{"start":13088.154,"end":13107.555,"text":"你認不認識聯合再生的董事長?我不太認識他你有沒有跟他吃過飯?我也不記得聯合再生一模一樣審議的過程這些委員不是請假就是代理先設建造化把早就決定了"},{"start":13109.122,"end":13118.324,"text":"當初牽線的人叫做張景生從上而下的決定然後你說你忘記了來我具體的問你誰決定投資的一切經過審查結果審查委員會不是請假就是代理然後聯合戰聲拿到了我們納粹人的紓困基金"},{"start":13137.137,"end":13154.381,"text":"繼續虧2020年當參議院綠門後援會的總會長我接下來就問你你2020年3月18日跟聯合再生的董事長、跟張景生、跟潘孟安在請客樓談了什麼根本不曉得記得這件事情"},{"start":13155.831,"end":13174.896,"text":"有沒有我不知道你回去查我們下次質詢的時候繼續說下去你查你的歷歷啊你有沒有吃過這頓飯你在國會可以回答說你不知道我當然不知道啊你五年前的事情哪一天的事情發生什麼事情你怎麼會記得這種官商憤記這種官商憤記砍納稅人之慨去建立自己的政商關係沒有這回事啦"},{"start":13183.063,"end":13202.87,"text":"這不是鐵砧砧的例子嗎?這不是例子啊 那就檢調來查才是最真實的啊所以嘛 在你們民進黨官員的眼裡只要檢調沒有來查就代表沒有事喔納稅人的錢是這樣給你們花的喔檢調才是最客觀 如果真的有不法證據的話 我們都會配合啊"},{"start":13203.763,"end":13204.463,"text":"委員可以去去這個剪掉"},{"start":13224.47,"end":13237.479,"text":"對嘛!所以我就問你嘛!你們所謂的青年情障礙鄉土,你們的廉政倫理規範只有一條事啊!檢調沒有來查就沒有事!是這樣嗎?把標準講清楚嘛!對啊!有些客觀的證據不會提出來了!"},{"start":13242.022,"end":13242.582,"text":"你連這個問題都不敢回答喔?好"},{"start":13270.196,"end":13270.517,"text":"好 來我們時間到齁謝謝"},{"start":13290.12,"end":13303.308,"text":"因為經濟委員會我們一般都會針對委員所發言請官員來回答那剛剛因為主委你又講到兩個事件那麼本席在這邊主席才特別提示"},{"start":13304.349,"end":13328.785,"text":"我們的國發基金的投資不是以總額來看這一點要很注意因為每一個案件委員提出必須要想死去說明他絕對不是以總投資額的多少去決定這一點我請主委你要細心回答接下來我們請王洪威委員王洪威委員不在場我們請李博義委員請做詢問"},{"start":13347.722,"end":13364.806,"text":"主席抱歉第一次在經濟委員會質詢來我請拱主委好我們再請公主委麥克風幫我收起來不用這麼大聲主委先請你冷靜一下很好很好"},{"start":13365.663,"end":13376.418,"text":"那個國發會業務報告裡面其實牽涉到很多我們地方的發展那確實是需要我們的大腦來協助我們地方的發展那"},{"start":13377.748,"end":13406.487,"text":"其實很多人不知道為什麼台積電會在哪一個縣市設廠比如說台積電為什麼會選當初為什麼選擇台中那或者是台積電後來為什麼放棄桃園而選擇可能其他的地方還有我來自高雄台積電為什麼選擇高雄來設二奈米廠的這些其實需要除了地方政府很大力的讓台積電看到我們行政效率之外我們更需要國發會這邊"},{"start":13408.569,"end":13425.963,"text":"讓所有的這些交通建設等等的都可以落實高雄市政府做了什麼事情讓台積電把高雄設為跟台南可以連結的這一個主要的基地也就是2奈米的產成基地他預計在2025年就會投入量產"},{"start":13426.764,"end":13442.313,"text":"那台積電旁邊還有橋頭科學園區過去在高雄縣市還沒有合併之前這個原本號稱是新市政那經過民進黨政府這8年來的努力跟地方政府的合作那我們促成了橋頭科學園區之外"},{"start":13442.893,"end":13469.299,"text":"也把這個中油的廠區過去污染的廠區用縮短成3年的時間來整治變成台積電願意來高雄設廠設2奈米廠最重要的原因那主委我們也知道上個禮拜台積電雄本廠的設立造成日本的大轟動其實日本政府做了什麼事情日本政府第一個廠就補助台積電1000億的台幣"},{"start":13472.708,"end":13499.384,"text":"不含這些公共設施不含包含熊本的這些水不含熊本的這些交通設施不含熊本的這些相關周邊的設施日本政府也投入了幾百億台幣在做這個迎接台積電來它可以帶來很多的就業機會那我們要做什麼?高雄需要什麼?注意我在3月1日跟陳建元院長質詢的時候提出了幾點都是有關交通部的預算包含"},{"start":13501.981,"end":13530.116,"text":"結運指線非常重要的一條貫穿台積電園區以及橋頭科學園區的這一條結運指線目前交通部的可行性評估在今年的6月會出來那我們另外還提出了南梓到這個南岡山的鐵路立體化從左營到南岡山的鐵路立體化目前可行性評估也在交通部1600萬預計今年可行性評估也要出來那"},{"start":13530.876,"end":13558.795,"text":"很重要的一點我剛提到的也就是為什麼台積電把高雄設為跟台南的這個高科技產業園區可以互相互補的一個重要的布局也就是男子交流道增設閘道這一條路為什麼需要目前台南到高雄的國道1號擁擠的程度過去從台南到高雄可能開高速公路一般時間40分鐘現在要增加最少要一個小時"},{"start":13559.716,"end":13584.116,"text":"那所以未來再加上台積電的布局相關的這些車流會增加到無法負荷我們急需要這個交流道的引道但這需要國發會這邊的審核請問主委這一條南梓交流道的引道要進入台積電園區目前審核的進度是怎樣請主委說大概意見大概差不多收集完畢了所以我們盡快的會和"},{"start":13592.18,"end":13604.166,"text":"主委,其實需要配合到台積電跟喬科他未來量產的時程我們不要到他量產之後大量的工程師、大量的工程車進駐之後"},{"start":13605.306,"end":13605.546,"text":"主委,是不是?"},{"start":13630.674,"end":13630.694,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":13661.104,"end":13661.424,"text":"陳冠廷主委"},{"start":13681.998,"end":13697.946,"text":"地方創生是平衡城鄉差距明明南北失衡不僅是南北失衡東西失衡等等跟離島失衡都算均衡台灣的一個重要政策我想大家應該都很熟悉政府這幾年來也是投入很多資源不遺餘履歷"},{"start":13699.046,"end":13724.3,"text":"目前我們發覺到有一個平等的問題就是說我們國發會針對地方縣市的提案基本上還是採取齊頭式競爭也就是說像我們嘉義縣可能要跟桃園跟台中這種都會地區的這些直轄市一起競爭那不同的縣市它的財政能力還有人力的多寡都是對一些我們的提案都會有產生影響"},{"start":13725.18,"end":13740.314,"text":"所以我就想說地方創生在平衡各個區域的發展可是這一個情況跟地方創生的原則是有背離的那目前國發會有沒有朝著實質的平等那分配正義的方向修正"},{"start":13741.038,"end":13741.058,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":13756.298,"end":13783.05,"text":"會比這個都會要多所以他不是齊頭式的說每一個縣市分配額度多少不是這樣是看你有地方他年輕人或者是地方創生團隊他準備好了那他有什麼樣的想法那提出來不管是透過公所也好或是直接跟我們多元提案也好只要我們認為這個是符合我們的原則比如說他有在地的DNA他長期蹲點在地方然後他有共好"},{"start":13783.59,"end":13785.832,"text":"最後我的意思應該是很清晰很明確的說"},{"start":13798.786,"end":13798.806,"text":"對,我認為"},{"start":13824.525,"end":13846.926,"text":"對對對我們是希望說我要還是再強調就是說這是很多縣府的同仁也有跟我們提過有類似這樣子的問題所在那我們是希望說國發會可以本著就是均衡台灣的一個立場來去我們來協助那剛才我們提到的這個之外我還是想要請教相關的法規地方創生是沒有相關的母法嗎"},{"start":13848.138,"end":13868.88,"text":"地方創生它是一個方案 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勞動基金運用局蘇玉清局長．職業安全衛生署周子蓮署長"},{"start":1937.322,"end":1961.46,"text":"勞動關係司王厚偉司長勞動保險司陳美女司長勞動福祉退休司謝倩倩司長勞動條件及就業平等司黃維琛司長介紹外交部亞東太平洋司許書智副司長張千彥副參事"},{"start":1963.963,"end":1989.069,"text":"領事事務局簽證組柯孝宗組長、衛生福利部長照司助建方司長、疾管署郭俊賢副組長、內政部宗教及理智司葉唐根生專門委員、移民署國際及執法事務組張文秀組長、"},{"start":1991.687,"end":2003.853,"text":"警政署國際組甘延明副組長國家安全局陳專門委員好以上那現在我們就請勞動部許部長報告報告時間5分鐘謝謝主席"},{"start":2011.004,"end":2025.277,"text":"各位委員先進：各位記者女士先生大家好：感謝貴委員會邀請本部就開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場的衝擊進行報告：也請各位委員給予指教：國發會退僱工作年齡人口從112年的1620萬人減少至119年的"},{"start":2034.186,"end":2057.547,"text":"570,000人7年就減少了113萬人基層勞動力嚴重不足製造業營造業缺工問題嚴重施能照顧需求日增移工需求有逐漸增加的趨勢那截至112年底在台移工累計是75.4萬人絕大多數來自印尼、越南、菲律賓及泰國四個國家製造業以越南及22.2萬人最多"},{"start":2059.537,"end":2079.555,"text":"社福類印尼籍是7.9萬人最多．只要任何一個國家減少或停止輸出．會立即衝擊我國移工的來源．相較於臨近開放移工的國家．日韓都有15國．新加坡有11國．我國僅有4國．僱主團體及大院曾多次要求積極開發新移工來源國．"},{"start":2081.557,"end":2105.804,"text":"新增來源國有其必要．而且主要是為了降低對有限來源國的依賴風險提供僱主多一個選擇僱主可自行選擇來源新增來源國並沒有新開放移工行業也沒有放寬僱主的資格或調高移工人數的比率僱主仍需符合申請資格並立規定來核算移工的名額臺印的勞工"},{"start":2106.889,"end":2131.204,"text":"合作MOU以及明定引進移工的行業及人數由我方決定本部將在既有開放的行業內跨部會來評估需求及本國勞工就業的情形與印度洽商我方所需要的引進的移工行業及人數並依我國要求培訓及招募依舊服法的規定僱主引進移工以前需依合理的勞動條件、薪資規定辦理國內求採程序"},{"start":2134.066,"end":2159.328,"text":"招募本國勞工有不足耳才能申請引進移工既有法定國內求採程序及新制的基準不會因為新增來源國而改變也不影響國人就業機會及勞動條件本部多年來持續透過外交管道探尋及洽商新移工來源的可能但都沒有辦法順利建立合作關係今年臺印度已經在多項領域開展交流"},{"start":2160.028,"end":2183.326,"text":"並自109年起陸續洽商勞工的合作意願在互惠互利的基礎下逐步促成合作共識印度人口超過14億人有人口紅利並鼓勵勞工赴海外工作我國勞動力結構改變有引進的需求雙方均有高度的合作意願應積極掌握契機簽署MOU警示"},{"start":2183.905,"end":2206.295,"text":"合作框架協議後續會透過工作層級的會議進一步來協商合作的細節簽署以後不會立即引進更沒有網路謠傳引進10萬名印度移工的規劃在簽署的程序上依印度方的提議雙方合作已有視訊簽署MOU的先例臺印度雙方代表已經在113年2月16日採視訊的方式簽署"},{"start":2210.792,"end":2238.293,"text":"勞工合作MOU．外交部2月26日通知本部．雙方已經完成範文簽署．本部將依條約地解法．在30天內報請行政院備查以後．送大院來查照及對外周知。．印度赴海外工作達1800萬人．而且持續增加．德國、義大利、法國、中東等國都有引進．以色列近期也規劃擴大引進．日本已經簽署．韓國也正在洽簽"},{"start":2239.298,"end":2267.325,"text":"印度移工多從事建築業、製造業、家事及農業工作符合我國引進的需求德國、義大利及中東長期引進印度勞工皆評價為高品質的勞動力印度將因我方的需求培訓及招募印度移工可確保移工的素質另外,全球比較犯罪指數2024年評比的結果印度優於加拿大、義大利、英國、法國等國又德國、義大利"},{"start":2268.223,"end":2293.136,"text":"以色列日韓爭取印度移工,顯見引進印度移工沒有犯罪治安的疑慮,而且所有移工來臺都需檢據當地行為良好證明,這個可以避免影響社會安定。令我國正式公告引進印度移工以前,會依法認可當地醫院的檢驗能力,並要求印度移工依我國規定進行馬診及身體檢查等健康檢查,"},{"start":2293.857,"end":2312.599,"text":"並提供合格的報告,降低境外傳染病,影響我國的防疫。印度約有八成人口信徒教,一成是回教徒,還有基督教等其他宗教。印度憲法已經明文禁止種姓制度歧視行為。種姓制度不適用外國人,來台工作並沒有問題。"},{"start":2313.42,"end":2333.573,"text":"令印度較普遍素食且多樣．而臺灣的素食及各式餐食選擇多元．應有助於印度移工適應臺灣的社會MOU已經明定開放行業跟人數由我方決定．印度將依我方的需求招募及訓練．雙方將透過工作層級的會議來討論執行細節．本部將協同相關部會審慎研議．廣納社會意見．循序漸進務實來辦理．本部也會參考其他國家引進模式．邀請相關部會．"},{"start":2343.699,"end":2370.409,"text":"勞僱團體及學者專家等提供諮詢意見省慎來評估我方的需求優先以具備一定學競力英文家的印度勞工為對象初期我們採小規模示範引進如果實施的成效良好再漸進來評估開放印度移工廣受各國信賴並擴大引進新增印度移工來源只是提供雇主多一個選擇可降低移工來源依賴的風險並不是放寬雇主資格"},{"start":2370.871,"end":2389.245,"text":"也沒有新增開放可禁用移工的行業或挑高可禁用移工的比率不會影響本國勞工就業機會社會治安及防疫的安全本部將循序漸進、穩健務實妥善規劃後續的工作並聆聽各界的聲音及意見加強社會溝通以消除疑慮"},{"start":2389.833,"end":2408.598,"text":"省省與印度持續來磋商開放的細節．並把關印度勞工的素質．讓產業及家庭受益．讓社會安心以上報告懇請各位委員先進不吝指教謝謝好謝謝部長的一個報告有關於本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":2409.434,"end":2433.789,"text":"那我們現在開始詢答做以下的宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員若有書面質詢請於三會前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息5分鐘原則上11點半處理臨時提案若有提案請儘早提出以利益事進行那接下來我們請登記第一位蘇清泉委員進行質詢"},{"start":2443.783,"end":2467.833,"text":"好,謝謝主席,也謝謝委員跟我互調趕快去東港我請部長好,請許部長不定也當工人我們還是東港高小的傑出校友好,部長,我們現在外籍移工進來臺灣總共75萬多人對,目前有在臺北住的"},{"start":2474.144,"end":2484.546,"text":"去年3.1萬那前年4.1萬那這幾年會比較多是因為因為前幾年那個疫情影響那邊際管制移工進不來整個供需失調所以尤其在111年的時候哇整個人數我們失聯率達到5.96那去年已經降下來4點多"},{"start":2501.089,"end":2520.276,"text":"那你現在要引進印度的移工那你的理想台灣是要需要多少移工才是屋頂是差不多多少報告委員我們其實移工的總數我們其實會有一些評估那目前來講"},{"start":2522.506,"end":2550.503,"text":"移工的引進其實跟失聯那是兩個議題那移工的引進的部分我們只要是看國內的缺工狀態那其實以目前來講整個缺工還是所以隨時調整隨時調整他的上限人數理想人數我們沒有一個上限人數我們現在就是警戒指標我們是用警戒指標來看就是說如果這個可能看警戒指標這個移工的引進有需要緊縮那我們會在"},{"start":2552.971,"end":2569.46,"text":"主委現在年輕人最擔心最擔心最擔心的就是什麼一直進來會不會影響他們的就業第二個會不會影響他們的薪資拉不上來第三個婦女同胞最關心的是治安這個你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":2570.396,"end":2588.949,"text":"第一個報告委員我們移工的引進是一個補充性原則我們的就業還是以本國人優先所以縱使是開放的行業開放引進移工的行業雇主先必須進行依照我們目前國內的薪資條件去進行招募"},{"start":2589.75,"end":2616.525,"text":"找不到人他才可以進移工所以基本上不會去影響到本國的就業機會那第二個薪資因為其實本外勞是平等待遇原則這個移工進來像製造業他一樣要適用基本工資所以這個不會去拉我在東港看到一個很很shock的這個場景就是我們台灣的年輕人宋夫胖達"},{"start":2617.995,"end":2619.195,"text":"請勞動部長、外交部、內政部、國家安全局就業市場之衝擊。"},{"start":2639.241,"end":2643.009,"text":"委員其實還好,因為他們畢竟在船上可能要上來陸地"},{"start":2652.042,"end":2671.317,"text":"這個去用餐可能不太方便那這個外送其實不管本國人外國人大家都是一個很方便的一個可以用餐的方式不過剛剛委員有講到那個犯罪率的問題我剛才跟委員報告其實在目前已經有引進印度移工"},{"start":2672.498,"end":2686.998,"text":"的這些國家裡面他們的犯罪率是偏低的那縱使以我們現在已經引進的已經有移工我們家四個國家我們有做過移工犯罪率的一個調查了解他其實本比本國人犯罪率大概就是一半"},{"start":2689.712,"end":2698.234,"text":"這個都會講到又會講到說有種族啊什麼這個不能講就像你講說胡適一樣你講到胡適這個是很敏感的問題好我第二個問題要問巴士亮表開放就放寬之後這個是侯友宜選總統的時候他提出來那是我提的啦我是醫療後援會總會長"},{"start":2717.268,"end":2740.521,"text":"開放之後真的是讓很多高齡的比較方便因為我第一線的意思我也沒有在想給很好,這是一個好的政策過去8年都不做,等到人家提出來就馬上做那現在看護,外籍看護移工也包括看護嘛現在看護開放之後,你們的回饋是怎麼樣"},{"start":2741.823,"end":2755.943,"text":"就是讓這些家庭真的最近開放了不少齁讓他們都減輕了不少的負擔部長你剛有說回饋就基層的回饋有沒有"},{"start":2758.547,"end":2778.613,"text":"我們現在不僅用巴士量表,我們有多元認定方式目前採多元認定方式的人到今年2月15日為止大概7700多人,申請上會更方便,包括我們也簡化重聘的程序"},{"start":2781.854,"end":2795.359,"text":"第三個比較敏感的問題這些外勞、外籍移工他們都身強體壯、年輕力壯他們進到臺灣僱主跟他分攤都有繳健保費嘛對不對那他們有使用健保嗎"},{"start":2796.55,"end":2818.147,"text":"那這些外籍移工或者是外籍的配偶來到臺灣他們都有繳健保費然後使用健保我給大家粗算這些人的生病的比例不高啦像移工大部分都是意外所以我們的健保局應該是有結與的有結與喔沒有說結果比較多那同樣的道理"},{"start":2826.072,"end":2850.433,"text":"大陸來的配偶也是年輕力壯也是要繳健保費使用健保所以有說不一樣嗎為什麼要給他搞成說會耗用健保等等我是覺得這是沒有邏輯啦那你健保的費用不夠那是你另外一個issue另外一個題目就是說你的健保不夠你就提高匯率嘛提高健保費等等所以這個"},{"start":2851.677,"end":2879.731,"text":"這個是比較敏感的問題,大家要了解,我這裡跟大家報告再來接續的問題,我們那個漁船從正常管道進來的漁工兩爺啦,這都用檢報嘛,都有檢報還有勞保都有顧主要負擔的比例那有另外一種就是在遠洋漁船上,像東港啊、蘇澳啊、高雄"},{"start":2881.418,"end":2910.054,"text":"這個遠洋漁船上面的遠洋漁工他是不用投保的喔不用投保勞保也不用投保健保喔這個他們只有保意外險而有這個部長你有什麼看法阿他們在船上不能下馬頭因為他是屬於遠洋漁業境外的移工這個跟近海的不一樣近海是歸勞動部阿遠洋這部分是農業部他的主管機關是農業部這個就是一個大漏洞阿"},{"start":2911.021,"end":2928.913,"text":"他們在漁船上不能下船但是都跑下來啦然後他們要吃的便當是我們這邊送那不少啦,一萬多人呢?詳細數目是多少?你不知道嗎?我不曉得,這要問農業部所以我們很多外,逃跑的這些漁工那種會跑出來也很多耶在那邊,在那邊"},{"start":2937.438,"end":2937.819,"text":"請勞動部主席"},{"start":2946.772,"end":2973.548,"text":"那印度進來我們印度的移工進來我們是非常的也贊成但是你剛剛講年輕人的餘力跟婦女的餘力這個希望勞動部要審慎的評估少量的進來然後要注意看他們後續那這些外勞的犯罪率就像部長你講的比較少還是少到多少說是不是有沒有逆暴的等等"},{"start":2974.403,"end":2990.215,"text":"所以這個我們是非常的關注這個問題,希望部長要注意。以上,謝謝。好,謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢。接下來我們請林月琴委員進行質詢。有請我們的部長還有署長和我們的張文秀組長。"},{"start":3012.574,"end":3027.188,"text":"在2023年因為要引進簽訂MOU就有些民間團體有反彈所以本席瞭解社會的討論大概分幾個面向也就是說MOU簽訂人數代表的意義跟開放移工來源國"},{"start":3028.269,"end":3050.776,"text":"會不會衝擊到本國人的就業和移工是否造成臺灣治安的一些隱憂那請問部長在去年9月之後勞動部到底有沒有持續跟民間團體尤其是對政策有疑慮的團體做說明具體的說明次數跟方式還有你的對象這個我請署長、業務單位"},{"start":3052.692,"end":3079.234,"text":"跟委員報告因為去年因為主要是在國會公共政策平台有幾個民間團體我們其實透過那個聯繫的資訊因為他只有留那個email沒有任何其他資訊我們是透過email希望能夠跟他取得一些資訊的一些一些不過目前為止我們大概發送的他們大概都沒有回訊所以這個我們要再努力希望勞動部這邊要去做處理因為還是要去解除因為"},{"start":3079.892,"end":3080.012,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":3104.861,"end":3126.793,"text":"就是我們要開放引進這個作業程序那我想請問部長這邊這一關一關的那循序漸進部長有沒有輸入的地方請你一一的補充做說明讓你有這個機會來把它講清楚"},{"start":3128.125,"end":3151.48,"text":"對報告委員我們現在就是MOU雙方視訊簽署了然後226我們接到外交部的文現在就是已經換約完畢那接下來呢我們就是依照條約締結法條約締結法12條規定我們要在30天內報行政院備查之後我們會送來大院立法院這邊那也會讓各界周知所以這個部分我們接下來就是"},{"start":3152.501,"end":3161.299,"text":"在這個步驟裡的第10號行政院立法院查照這邊那接下來我們這個整個完成以後那接下來我們就會展開"},{"start":3162.37,"end":3185.411,"text":"雙方的工作層級會議這些主要討論的就是像委員這邊講的行業數額、評估資格等等這些細節那這個部分我們到時候也是會邀請目的事業主管機關像經濟部、衛福部、農業部、內政部他們有這個開放的行業請他們一起來參與然後瞭解說他們的缺工狀況、需求"},{"start":3186.532,"end":3214.61,"text":"需要怎麼樣勞工技術條件等等會在這個工作層級會議來來討論然後這邊大概會多久我目前還不曉得因為可能還要看後續大家的討論是不是順利像日本日本他們去年簽了他們光工作層級會議就開了一年所以我也不曉得我們這邊的狀況或許大家如果順利的話就會很快然後對然後接下來就是"},{"start":3217.644,"end":3236.562,"text":"這個討論以後那我們就會決定開放的行業人數還有招募訓練等等那整個籌備工作都完成以後我們才會正式依法公告說印度是我們新增的移工來源部所以部長這看起來我這邊整理的事實上是沒有缺漏的對沒有缺漏那下一頁"},{"start":3239.506,"end":3264.808,"text":"從去年開始媒體就一直看到說要引進10萬名印度移工這樣的新聞標題之後讓民眾是感到恐慌的所以本席認為應該要及早說明清楚你不論MOU上臺印雙方約定的人數那是一個總量的概念嘛對不對那實際上就是入境的人數還是要看雇主他主案的提出申請"},{"start":3266.004,"end":3291.97,"text":"那政府許可之後才可以引進那政府是否許可還要看我們的外勞的警戒的指標上的一些變化變好放寬許可變壞緊縮許可那可惜這個指標總體的和產業社福這三大項裡邊這個從2022年事辦之後一直沒有讓國人充分瞭解才會有這樣的隱憂戰"},{"start":3293.243,"end":3313.698,"text":"所以包括這指標怎麼去判斷這19項而且如何依據它變化做調整直到現在這個重要的訊息我覺得社會大眾不太瞭解我想相關的人員也不是這麼瞭解所以請問一下這個外籍外勞的警戒指標的資訊非常不透明"},{"start":3314.56,"end":3334.131,"text":"所以想問的是就會讓大家帶風向的人帶風向使得我們的民眾更大的憂慮所以會後兩週內是不是可以公布這個外勞警戒指標完整說明而且特別是指標跟許可寬鬆"},{"start":3335.953,"end":3362.947,"text":"緊縮之間的關係讓社會大眾知情那可以的話你是用什麼方式來讓大家知道好 謝謝委員我們其實像我們都會定期開這個這個政策小組會議那這是勞資政協各方代表那開會完我們其實都會在網站公開我們相關的會議的這些資訊不過委員剛剛有這樣子講我才想說因為大家現在對於這個移工如果說還需要"},{"start":3364.468,"end":3388.046,"text":"警戒指標各方面需要進一步的我覺得我們有這個義務那未來這個臺運臺運會用多元的管道讓大家來知道這個未來這個臺運勞務合作案是不是也是在這個置入裡邊同樣去運作來增加移工來源不改變原有的許可規則這個我們這個警戒指標是在決定比較就是說它人數量"},{"start":3390.505,"end":3390.705,"text":"來 下一頁"},{"start":3417.704,"end":3443.845,"text":"上大家真的很擔心的就是會不會衝擊到我們國人優先就業所以想問傳統對於移工開放行業的標準在低技術性的勞工工作可是隨著國內缺工這個想問的是你現在這個修正法規修正所影響的是移工名額上的增加還是會是針對一樣同樣是低技術性的勞工工作這個原則做放寬"},{"start":3446.216,"end":3469.877,"text":"基本上因為我們其實就是針對蘭嶺的移工蘭嶺的移工才有開放那目前就是像製造業3K產業像這些3K產業它有缺工的話那我們就會經濟部會提案我們再來做就會經過政策小組來評估才會開放才會開放下一位因為有時間"},{"start":3473.208,"end":3488.016,"text":"要秉除我們的偏見歧視現在歧視有兩個一個是犯罪這一塊那對於刑方不明移工若我看數據還是維持在8萬多若剛剛部長報告說你112年有更高"},{"start":3491.345,"end":3519.398,"text":"那在處理因為人數更多所以是不是能夠針對這個也讓大家知道那個犯罪率第一公開比較清楚說明的確看114國人的犯罪率是每萬人114.12那四國過去移工在臺灣事實上是每萬人是59.46可是到底我們國人到底了不了解這種狀況並沒有另外一個就是國人一直對於所謂的過去在"},{"start":3520.418,"end":3520.959,"text":"好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":3548.499,"end":3554.768,"text":"好 我們謝謝林月琴委員進行的質詢接下來我們請陳昭芝委員進行質詢好 有請部長"},{"start":3564.277,"end":3581.932,"text":"對於開放印度籍移工的這個議題,在選前有引起蠻大的爭議,甚至有公民團體他們舉辦了遊行,那部長您記得您當時做了什麼回應嗎?報告委員,我那時候做了兩個回應,因為那時候是說第一個說我們已經簽署,那我說我們還沒有簽,我們正在"},{"start":3584.753,"end":3607.12,"text":"下簽了齁第二個就是說他說引進10萬名印度移工那我們說絕對沒有要引進10萬名移工的這件事情就現在部長因為當時您是說引進印度移工是假訊息10萬名我說10萬名印度移工這個是假訊息但是在那你能確定確保在台灣有七八十萬移工那現在增加了一個來源國你能確保永遠是"},{"start":3608.26,"end":3635.669,"text":"是不增加、不會增加到10萬名的移工嗎?這個能確保嗎?我覺得是有點在文字上的一個部分否定的做法。不是,報告委員,當下,他當下,就是,這是很重要,因為讓國人,就是這個印象讓國人是非常深刻,因為他就講說我引進10萬名印度移工,那這個部分不是,對,我是針對10萬,如果剛剛委員看一下,我,如果那時候有注意喔,我全部的我們的發言都很清楚,"},{"start":3636.109,"end":3640.092,"text":"那我想請教就是說哪些項目或是人數什麼時候會讓我們了解這些內容"},{"start":3665.017,"end":3692.82,"text":"那個報告委員我們的開放的行業跟人數會在後續的還在研議嗎?不是,後續我們要跟更多開工作層級的會議那個就會實體討論我想我們國內自己有備案嘛我想請問防務在不在開放的項目裡目前沒有沒有的話那為什麼這個文國財部長去年10月他說已有初步方案跟勞動部討論屢數月將開放外籍移工沒有沒有"},{"start":3694.575,"end":3708.913,"text":"這個交通部長也這樣子說了這個報告委員我們現在國內的服務但是沒有排除對不對沒有排除這件事那個報告委員這是兩個命題第一個我們服務業目前還不是我們移工的開放的行業"},{"start":3710.094,"end":3727.87,"text":"但是目前國內的旅宿業者有要爭取移工開放但是我們目前還沒有定案還在討論當中我想要請你了解這個飯店從業人員國內失業是非常的嚴重那飯店業者他收費也蠻高的住宿費就是說如果他不用提高待遇那優先聘付本來當然這個會引起從業人員飯店從業人員的"},{"start":3730.993,"end":3754.46,"text":"但是我跟委員報告我現在的印度新增來源國我沒有說因為新增印度我就開放服務這個沒有了解現在你還沒有規劃這個防務的部分沒有沒有沒有好謝謝然後我想跟部長談一個這個移工的執聘制跟這個仲介制這個請問部長鼓勵僱主不需要透過仲介直接聘僱移工是不是勞動部的既有政策既定政策"},{"start":3755.2,"end":3781.463,"text":"是,我們其實就是鼓勵,我們有一個多,有一個職聘的機制在1997年就成立這個,就是職聘這個中心嘛但是就是說,那為什麼職聘的比例,我們現在有的數字是直直落曾經到10%,現在不到1%如果這是職聘是一個我們的既定政策,為什麼這個報告委員,這個比率的降勢,因為以前"},{"start":3782.116,"end":3789.941,"text":"一共三年到期到出國我知道你們是以這個52條修正對修正以後關聯性這麼大嗎?有啊因為他要回去再進來你們認為關聯性就在這個修法的地方嗎?"},{"start":3799.747,"end":3826.594,"text":"那就下一張那2018年我知道因為這個關係你們就採測了總共8個採測的7個職聘中心只是因為台北是一個據點但是但是你看2023年去年又說業務這個民眾的變多這個業務的民眾變多又需要更大的空間我想了解到底職聘的部分是需求增加還是在下降需求有增加"},{"start":3827.654,"end":3855.509,"text":"但是因為大家都透過網路申請,實體來申請的比較少,所以才會...大家都透過網路申請嘛,以坑務來說,很多家庭他都是中年以上,中長年使用,他們對於要使用電腦操作,要這個讀卡機...報告委員,他們大部分都委託仲介啦,仲介的話他們就是會...不好意思,現在我可不可以請教在場的這個官員,家裡有聘僱移工的,可以麻煩舉一下手嗎?"},{"start":3856.906,"end":3861.626,"text":"都沒有嗎?家裡有沒有聘僱這個移工?都沒有需求,長輩都沒有需求嗎?"},{"start":3864.434,"end":3891.443,"text":"真的都沒有嗎我還是要聚焦在這個職聘跟仲介的部分請大家下一張部長您知道職聘的程序有多麼繁複多麼惹民怨嗎至少經過包括80量表也不是看一次病有一次看一次科別就有了他至少有超過這個10個步驟然後去要七處的地方處處入所以事實上這個職聘程序反而事實上"},{"start":3891.963,"end":3906.046,"text":"是變相的如果是既定政策是變相的是反職聘而且是在圖利這個仲介我們看到的是這樣子而且職聘中心目前他的角色他只有收件跟送件你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":3909.56,"end":3930.169,"text":"包委細節的默契署長可以說明那個我們的服務不是只有收件送件沒有是很多人放棄這個有些時候執聘執聘可以選前阿為什麼很多人還放棄呢因為這個就是阻礙執聘的程序繁瑣非常的繁瑣包括我們家也經歷長輩的這個需求要執聘是非常的繁瑣我們會盡量讓程序來簡化會檢討包委你這邊所列的我都會請"},{"start":3936.092,"end":3936.312,"text":"下一張"},{"start":3955.683,"end":3976.476,"text":"移工的職聘目前為止我知道泰國跟菲律賓做得比較順利但是印尼跟越南的成效很差那根據這個職聘中心主任陳昌邦說都是對方的問題印尼政府說是家庭監護公司單獨進入家庭所以需要來管理那越南的說法是勞工本身習慣要付仲介費用來辦理部長你覺得這個說法你同意嗎"},{"start":3977.556,"end":3997.677,"text":"報告委員,韓國是這樣,他們一開始的時候他們就採持聘制度,所以他當初在那邊,對,他們一開始會這樣,但我們那時候不是啦,所以再來就是說您剛剛講的,像印尼來講,印尼他是法律規定,他們的家庭他不能透過職聘,但是印尼跟韓國可以啊?"},{"start":3999.097,"end":4022.084,"text":"就是說印尼跟韓國之間他們也是直接聘僱的委員,廠工可以,製造業的廠工可以但家庭看護工印尼是不能用職聘的那是他的法令規定我們也希望能夠用職聘但是移工到韓國去做他們是政府職聘製作當中而且移工還需要接受韓語能力的考試很多的主動權是在政府這一邊"},{"start":4023.324,"end":4043.638,"text":"那這個越南的話他們甚至有勞務協議超過30年那而且也是國跟國這個職聘這樣的方式所以覺得部長覺得這樣職聘的這個參考可不可行我們可以借盡其他國家的經驗我們有多參考而且跟委員報告我們每年的就是說我們雙方的雙邊的會議我們都期待能夠因為是來源國比較消極啦因為你知道移工"},{"start":4051.443,"end":4055.965,"text":"有很多移工團體他倡議這個國對國的這個職聘因為他之前來之前這個要所謂的介紹費人頭費大概5到20萬來臺灣之後這個仲介公司到6萬另外這個所謂的取消滿三年出國的規定之後部長資報裡面有所謂的買工費違法的買工費2到9萬"},{"start":4069.97,"end":4082.34,"text":"就是抓不勝抓那這個勞動部的裁罰金額跟不法收益其實是九牛一毛就算被撤照了還是找其他人再開所以我的意思是說如果能夠減少仲介的層層剝削今天這張時間"},{"start":4086.323,"end":4103.662,"text":"今天就是說這個是新的來源國全新的來源國那我們是不是可以藉此來釋放政府對政府國對國的一個執聘制度因為可以從這裡開始那將政府來當仲介的話移工減少剝削僱主也安心啊因為是政府來做這件事啊"},{"start":4104.443,"end":4120.401,"text":"部長覺得這件事可不可行可不可以去參考報告委員我們現在要準備跟印度來後續的工作成績裡面就會包含這個那我們來做吧韓國都可以做了我覺得做了30年我意思是說因為剛開始談如果我們要採這個制度會比較好談"},{"start":4121.34,"end":4121.72,"text":"接下來我們請陳金輝委員進行質詢"},{"start":4149.557,"end":4155.58,"text":"主席各位官員還有委員同事們大家早安我也想請部長你好好請部長陳委員好我們知道說幫我放一下"},{"start":4166.579,"end":4187.172,"text":"這個MOU是外交部去簽署的那是你來執行嗎但昨天外交部給我們的報告就這樣一頁字非常大相信很遠的地方都看得到這個字不到一頁啦所以我想還是請問部長好了這個MOU我們跟印度簽署我們有一些利益關係嗎利益互換嗎利益互換"},{"start":4190.616,"end":4195.58,"text":"我們可以看到說這兩件事不知道您覺得是否有關聯因為我們2023年在孟買設了一個經濟文化辦事處2024年就簽署了MOU這兩件事有沒有什麼關係"},{"start":4214.741,"end":4232.941,"text":"委員應該是沒關係因為其實我們跟印度之間的勞務合作是比較後面的我記得好像經濟啦包括農業什麼他們都已經在之前他們都有簽署MOU有合作關係我們是勞務的部分是在2020的年底那時候才開始沒關係"},{"start":4234.202,"end":4254.601,"text":"因為之前我們曾經有前例告訴我們國人說只要我們可以進口萊豬、萊牛我們入CPTPP就有優勢結果我們後來也沒有入所以我們很希望說這次的簽署是一個很對等而且很互惠的關係我也想請問部長說請問您認為MOU它是一個協定還是一個"},{"start":4260.666,"end":4263.288,"text":"根據我們的條約締結法民國104年剛剛您所提到的"},{"start":4287.355,"end":4287.776,"text":"條約還是一個協定?"},{"start":4305.353,"end":4309.537,"text":"所以如果您覺得內容沒有涉及這麼多國防外交財政經濟等等怎麼今天這麼多人出現在同一個場合"},{"start":4323.172,"end":4338.5,"text":"我們還是很希望其實我們上一次簽的MOU是20年前20年前這邊有一張陳菊簽署的MOU這已經是20年前了所以我們104年為了"},{"start":4341.201,"end":4366.773,"text":"我們跟國際之間有更好的更保障國人的權益有了條約締結法我也很希望勞動部未來我們可以就這些談判的方針啊爭議啊等等的要適度的跟立法院報告向立法院相關委會說明之後送到立法院我們也會嚴加的審視那剛剛已經有很多委員提到了我也想知道說我們現在外籍的失聯移工部長您認為是變多還是變少"},{"start":4370.923,"end":4380.169,"text":"呃在111年的時候是特別人數特別增加特別多吼有剛剛講到疫情對然後隨著我們因為邊境的管制已經"},{"start":4381.305,"end":4381.365,"text":"1111112你說曲緩"},{"start":4413.186,"end":4418.65,"text":"這個數字難以置信欸這是兩個小巨蛋的人數欸兩個大巨蛋的人數欸"},{"start":4420.868,"end":4440.815,"text":"那個報告委員我講的趨緩我是講那個失聯率因為會跟那個進來的人數有關本來是3萬後來是6千所以是趨緩不是報告委員像100你看109、110、111這個都是剛好疫情的時候所以那個人數都是增加尤其到111年你看增加了"},{"start":4443.271,"end":4462.788,"text":"其實我們那一年是增加了4萬億啦要看那個失聯率失聯率就是說總數跟失聯的人數這樣去比會比較比較客觀一點不能單看人數部長您覺得最高比例失聯的是哪一類的移工就是111年最高的就是5.96"},{"start":4464.369,"end":4465.671,"text":"事實上他是上升不是減少嗎對吧他是上升只是趨緩他是上升結論還是上升委員不好意思"},{"start":4473.553,"end":4495.809,"text":"去年才趨緩112才趨緩我是看那個失聯率你看人數當然好像覺得增加但是其實你要看那個112例我們的那個進來的人數是增加的我也分享一下我臨床上實際看到大家知道我過去是長期在醫院執業所以我們會有移工他這些沒有身份的人這好幾萬人"},{"start":4497.694,"end":4498.114,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4521.805,"end":4523.066,"text":"這也是我們國家形象很嚴重的一環嘛"},{"start":4540.496,"end":4563.425,"text":"所以報告委員我們也針對要如何來降低這個失聯率我們也在努力所以包括說我們的國安團隊像去年就查獲了兩萬七千人所以你為了改善他們工作環境包括未來我們也會針對比如說因為他們移工大概進來都透過仲介那當地的仲介如果他失聯率高我們會停權"},{"start":4564.745,"end":4581.375,"text":"那未來我們也會加重僱用這10年的移工的僱主還有仲介剛剛有講到說為了改善移工的環境所以執聘中心陳肇智委員也有質詢執聘中心是你們一個很重點的指標對嗎執聘中心可以幫助到什麼"},{"start":4583.194,"end":4592.041,"text":"我這邊有一本112年移工管理及運用調查報告我從108年一直讀到112年部長你有看過這個移工管理及運用調查報告嗎?"},{"start":4604.351,"end":4619.476,"text":"剛講到說執聘中心完全沒有落實大家可以看到說我們從108到110年到111年僱主知道執聘中心的比例都沒有進步都沒有增長大家根本不知道這件事"},{"start":4621.291,"end":4639.038,"text":"這個報告委員我們都有在宣導你有在宣導但是好像沒笑但是這個就是因為聽大眾他是不是有看但是我要跟委員說明因為其實我們現在移工的引進雇主他第一個他可以自行招聘他可以透過中介他也可以"},{"start":4639.861,"end":4640.301,"text":"就是透過我們職聘"},{"start":4670.782,"end":4694.74,"text":"這個你自己可以接受這樣子的問卷嗎知道但不清楚有哪些措施我知道我在新聞上有看過蘇丹紅但我不知道蘇丹紅是什麼這樣也把它歸成知道然後突然從50%變成72%結果你扣掉知道但不清楚有哪些措施根本只剩30%雇主知道完全是在下降根本沒有宣導啊所以剛剛有講到說執聘中心"},{"start":4696.281,"end":4717.872,"text":"我們很想宣傳執聘中心結果大家看執聘中心的比例真的有用到執聘中心的比例是2018年1.6%2023年1.7%然後每年我們是4000多萬的預算花在執聘中心欸如果我在裡面上班我可能都覺得很沒有成就感進來這麼多人結果真的利用我的服務的人是1.6%"},{"start":4720.708,"end":4734.087,"text":"這個齁"},{"start":4734.774,"end":4758.76,"text":"這個就是讓聘僱移工多一個選擇就僱主多一個選擇這個選擇沒有競爭當然這個會牽涉到就像我剛剛講的比如說能夠透過職聘有些是沒有辦法像印尼的就沒辦法但是我跟你說我們是要努力再來把它讓大家都知道然後願意來使用這個是我們要來做的"},{"start":4759.54,"end":4768.003,"text":"當然已經努力很多年了嘛那最後提一個很簡單的建議啦剛剛陳昭智委員有講到說申辦文件複雜他剛剛夯不啷啷列出十幾項你看認為申辦文件複雜的從110年45%到112年42%改變文件的申辦是一個應該三年內應該做得到的事情這點我們也希望未來我們有一個書面報告來呈現我們應該要怎麼改善這個整個職聘中心不然就乾脆不要成立嘛"},{"start":4788.73,"end":4800.636,"text":"好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 我們謝謝陳金輝委員的一個質詢接下來我們請圖全級委員進行質詢好 謝謝主席"},{"start":4818.857,"end":4821.918,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那請我們部長好 有請部長圖仁好好 部長我請問一下針對我們這個印度移工的這個政策其實一直以來從大家知道以後就一直紛紛擾擾那我們勞動部也針對印度這些說了很多的事情但是我們注意到"},{"start":4846.909,"end":4860.113,"text":"有很多沒有說的有幾個重點像印度他有多達20幾幾種的官方語言而且他現在印度教跟慕林斯這個衝突也是日益升高那而且針對我們國際數據網站statist在2022年他就有"},{"start":4865.694,"end":4889.26,"text":"對印度就有發生過3萬多起的性侵的事件而且重點他也指出這個受害者他常在警局撤銷告訴撤銷的被迫撤銷的比例非常非常的高表示他們這個常常都受到很多社會上壓力、屈服、妥協變成這些受害婦女"},{"start":4890.78,"end":4918.361,"text":"警局以後反而是撤銷他的告訴那而且這個世界銀行性別統計的資料庫也顯示15歲到49歲印度的女性中有6%就遭受過這個性暴力的對待那我請問一下你不斷在我們的大眾對於印度移工我們部長一直有說我們針對這個引進有歧視的心理甚至有這個"},{"start":4919.942,"end":4934.113,"text":"認知作戰那我請問這STATIST還有世界銀行他也在歧視我們印度人嗎他也在做認知作戰嗎難道他的報導跟分析也是對岸的阻撓的行為嗎那請部長說明一下"},{"start":4935.193,"end":4963.047,"text":"報告委員因為你剛剛所講的這些大概就是印度他國內的一個狀況但是我們現在所瞭解的是印度在1800萬在海外的移工的的一個他們工作狀況他其實是OK的包括說他的素質他的工作能力其實他在1800萬戶戶在世界各國他的工作能力是受大家肯定的犯罪率也是比起"},{"start":4963.387,"end":4980.077,"text":"請勞動"},{"start":4981.439,"end":4994.146,"text":"這個沒有犯罪紀錄的一個證明一定要提出所以就是說就是我們所謂的良民證我們要確保他沒有治安的疑慮我請問一下我的重點是說他針對這個國際數據網站等等他所報導的"},{"start":4997.788,"end":5010.885,"text":"難道他們也是在做認知戰嗎我沒有說他做認知戰我剛剛是跟委員說您說的這是他可能他就他國內的一個情形做說明但是我移工要引進我會有一些條件就是說你來第一個"},{"start":5012.14,"end":5033.701,"text":"對治安不能有影響,不能影響我的社會。好,沒關係,所以這些數據你也是承認也是同意的嘛,對不對,針對這些數據。這個如果是國際的數據,當然那評比那個我們必須就是尊重他的一個說明。好,所以重點。但是我是說,我要說明就是說,我們瞭解這些狀況,但是我移工的引進我一定要確保,"},{"start":5034.621,"end":5052.267,"text":"我的重點是說所以這些數據跟對岸阻撓其實是沒有關係的嘛這些數據跟對岸認知戰是沒有關係的嘛對不對報告委員我們講的那是說當初去年大概11月的時候說我們要引進10萬名印度移工"},{"start":5053.167,"end":5067.985,"text":"這件事情是假訊息啊好沒關係我現在重點是說我希望我們勞動部在做這些處理事情不要很多事情沒有辦法處理沒有辦法交代都無限上剛推到老共的身上我們針對部長我覺得你們講話也要負責不要說什麼事情都推到說對岸"},{"start":5073.412,"end":5082.482,"text":"公開有阻撓那我請問一下你們說你在在接受採訪的時候說有公開阻撓我想請問一下那他是怎麼阻撓你可以告訴我們嗎"},{"start":5086.172,"end":5114.324,"text":"因為你在網路接受的時候你有講那而且我們發文去詢問的時候其實喔我們櫃部喔真的也說不出個所以然我們有發文去喔因為你說有阻撓然後我們也發文去櫃部他也說不出個所以然所以我說現在是不是勞動部的同仁在打臉我們的勞動部長還是我們的勞動部長公然說謊你可以說明一下嗎其實這些事情很多"},{"start":5116.291,"end":5131.827,"text":"他的主腦有很多方式但是我要講像去年那一年底那件事情所謂認知這是有經過國安單位的一個瞭解之後認為有這麼一回事沒有部長我覺得你講的真的都很不明確"},{"start":5135.459,"end":5161.874,"text":"主腦有它各種方式啦,真的要...好沒關係,所以你講的主腦到現在其實還是說不出一些任何具體的主腦,沒關係那我請問一下,那針對印度移工入境可能負面的影響那當然我們政府有這個責任要做完整的評估來說服大眾那我請問一下,在整個引進的過程中,我們勞動部有做研究評估嗎?"},{"start":5163.308,"end":5183.844,"text":"我們有評估過啊我們勞動部自己有做評估嗎?勞動部有做嗎?我們自己內部有評估啊你有評估報告嗎?評估的資訊啦你有評估報告有會議紀錄嗎?那不是會議紀錄啦所以提不出任何評估報告嗎?"},{"start":5185.224,"end":5211.018,"text":"我們的資訊的收集之後所以你一說勞動部有做就對了我們有做評估啦那我請問一下那你在網路節目說是外交部在幫勞動部做評估是不是你是不是這樣講協助協助收取資料所以你說外交部是協助我們任何移工來源國當初在開放的時候都是要透過那到底是勞動部做還是外交部做"},{"start":5212.096,"end":5225.024,"text":"都有都有幫忙都有做都有協助勞動部有做外交部也有做就是我們要引進移工的這個心得人有一定要做一些評估啊所以你但是你還是提不出任何證據任何會議記錄說有做評估嗎對不對你們你們"},{"start":5229.997,"end":5245.074,"text":"沒有任何會議紀錄也提不出任何報告只是你自己說有嘛那重點你在網路節目講的時候你是說請外交部喔今天外交部有來我請外交部證實一下我們勞動部是不是有請你們提供資訊來做這個評估外交部有提供資訊"},{"start":5252.612,"end":5269.686,"text":"委員好這個案子主政單位是勞動部我們外交部在這個案子事實上是採取一個協助的立場我們外管就是我們駐印度代表處有協助相關的資訊這些相關的資訊我們應勞動部的要求我們也都有轉給勞動部的單位請問一下你提供給他的資料是機密嗎我們提供的資料這些都是機密"},{"start":5281.616,"end":5283.719,"text":"請問不能提供給立委知情,那勞動部可以對外公開說嗎?"},{"start":5300.182,"end":5301.143,"text":"主席不好意思再給我兩分鐘那我請問一下"},{"start":5315.62,"end":5340.316,"text":"因為我們覺得真的很納悶我沒有想到連這個外交引進也都列入機密 講兩點就像黑箱一樣 我不知道為什麼現在我們民進黨政府疫苗也要黑箱軍購也要黑箱 連這個外勞引進都列入機密也要黑箱難道這個到時候也要封存30年嗎報告委員 這個我們都依照這個法律 相關的法規在進行 如同我剛剛講的一句"},{"start":5341.577,"end":5370.737,"text":"文書處理手冊還有國家機密保護法的相關規定反正這些機密文件的話我們沒有辦法直接提供給委員除非大院有做成相關的局面再來進行內部的評估部長我們部長我再請問一下我們勞動部裡面是不是有跨國勞動力政策協商諮詢小組那這個是不是針對擬定外勞政策針對勞資政三方最重要平台由他引進都要由他來做評估對不對"},{"start":5371.957,"end":5382.64,"text":"那我請問一下勞動部針對這部分是哪一個單位在做評估剛剛部長說有做評估是誰在做評估那個剛剛委員報告是因為在MOU在整個掐簽過程當中不是我問你誰在做評估嘛"},{"start":5401.206,"end":5413.336,"text":"我們現在是行政的內部要透過相關的資訊的蒐集之後所以你說跨國勞動力政策協商小組是不是在做這個工作的?沒有那這個單位還有功能嗎?有"},{"start":5415.06,"end":5434.043,"text":"還有功能那我說實在我請問一下部長你們說有討論可是你真的提不出一些具體的而且到底有哪個單位在做而且這個跨國勞動力政策協商小組你還好你說他沒有做三年六次的會議針對這印度移工的問題"},{"start":5435.304,"end":5457.322,"text":"資質未提從頭到尾都沒有討論過所以我希望我們這個我們這個勞動部在這之前希望一定要說服大眾要做一個完整的評估然後針對我們這些問題你像之前你自己在講你在網路節目講外交部正在幫勞動部停工你自己去看你在"},{"start":5458.142,"end":5483.153,"text":"網路政論節目講的然後你說這些印勞都來自東北的省份生活習慣跟我們相近而且多數是基督徒我真的很想知道你這些訊息到底是哪裡來的你真的有需要說清楚講明白難怪我們民間常常謠言說說這個外勞的引進是綠營金主想要做這個外勞的生意而且我不希望把我們這些民間的質疑"},{"start":5485.054,"end":5499.02,"text":"都無限上綱都推到對岸的認知戰阿共的陰謀你沒有辦法交代的事情就是阿共的陰謀對岸的認知戰所以我今天等一下會有再臨時提案針對我們今天這個印度移工外勞引進我們針對希望我們縣市政府一定要舉辦說明會還有盤整我們現有的同意功能還有針對我們現有社會影響評估勞動市場評估還有政策可行性評估你們一定要提出做一個完整的報告"},{"start":5514.767,"end":5541.841,"text":"到時候也要請我們勞資政學還有仲介代表來召開這個公聽會那還有針對我們現在逃逸外勞的現象你們一直沒有提出一個完善的改善的方式我們希望你能夠提出一個階段性的完善改善方式我們再來提這個印度移工的問題不然這個問題你再引進絕對造成我們台灣社會民眾恆大的疑慮在這邊希望我們部長勞動部能夠幫忙謝謝"},{"start":5544.943,"end":5548.926,"text":"好,我們謝謝圖權級委員進行的質詢。接下來我們請邱政軍委員進行質詢。好,我們一樣有請我們的許部長。好,有請部長。"},{"start":5576.675,"end":5587.605,"text":"剛剛我們圖委員的議題就是我們在簽印度移工的MOU之前我們剛剛說到有做完整的評估報告嗎?"},{"start":5596.662,"end":5617.2,"text":"我剛剛聽到外交部說這個是機密我覺得很奇怪我再請問一下根據過去的經驗我們開放蒙古移工的時候勞動部都有完整的評估作業也有公開的報告為什麼印度的不用?"},{"start":5619.235,"end":5639.837,"text":"那個應該是已經完成以後才...完成以後我們會對外整個...對,因為現在是...那個是之前嗎?以前蒙古的時候是...是之後才報嗎?看到了可能是已經整個完成,完成之後那會有一個對外的...還是因為我們這個新南向政策,所以就可以開後門?"},{"start":5640.811,"end":5641.391,"text":"請外交部許副司長"},{"start":5664.4,"end":5692.899,"text":"您剛剛說這個報告是機密不能公開那我再問你是不是有特殊的這個外交任務也沒有特殊的外交任務一般來講因為我們外交部使用是電報格式那這些公文的話如果說只要掛上密的話我們公務人員必須要依照相關法規來辦理我認為就是開放外籍勞工已經是行之有年的一個政策過去勞動部會進行這個完整的評估作業"},{"start":5693.86,"end":5717.327,"text":"然後公開那這一次我們大搞神秘反而引起這個外界的各種猜測造成政策的這個阻力我們我想我們應該要檢討改進如果說你們的我這樣講如果說你們交給勞動部是機密那我希望勞動部這邊是不是也可以公開盡早來公開來給我們國人一個交代完整的一個說明我是覺得"},{"start":5718.307,"end":5747.339,"text":"這個都沒有我覺得政策盡量能夠公開透明可以公開的我們一定會公開啦因為有些當初是他們因為收集的資訊按照他們的內參的他們有他們的規範我們尊重但是要提供過來的東西我們會自己看了之後那什麼時候可以公佈?我們一方告委我們後續喔我是覺得應該你是要送那個將MOU送行政院之前公佈還是之後再來公佈?被查後"},{"start":5748.499,"end":5770.623,"text":"所以被查後才公佈?那我們委員都沒有辦法去了解這個真正的狀況?被查以後我們就會送立法院啊,送立法院查照啊。好,那你盡快啦。那目前我們大家知道的,我們印度開放移工的行業跟人數由台灣決定,由印度那邊來訓練是嗎?對。還有其他內容嗎?你說那個MOU啊?"},{"start":5777.339,"end":5803.024,"text":"對,就是我們的開放的行業跟人數行業跟人數是我們這邊決定的那開放程序呢?行業數額?現在還沒有,還沒有語言能力、專長、資格等等這個後續都會談就是我們MOU完成這個手續之後我們接下來就是要開工作層級會議然後就是包括您剛委員講的行業、人數、語言條件等等"},{"start":5804.224,"end":5832.46,"text":"那個我們就會在工作成績會議裡面去做討論好瞭解那您盡快我希望我們部長這邊盡快到時候給我們盡快讓我們知道訊息好不好那當然剛剛還有提到一個就我們移工造成治安的問題我們當然不是歧視只是說當然我們也要保護我們國人的一個治安的國家的治安那當然但是我想部長對這個部分有什麼看法報告委員我們"},{"start":5833.82,"end":5859.368,"text":"印度移工未來要進來跟其他現在已經開放移工一樣他的國家必須出具沒有犯罪的這個證明也就是我們這邊的陽明證就是說他必須是素質好的沒有犯罪紀錄的移工這樣子啦因為現在大家都滿關心這個議題我希望部長我建議是不是我們制定一個公開還有公布篩選的一個機制還有限制讓國人消除這個疑慮可以嗎"},{"start":5861.165,"end":5882.507,"text":"這個工作會議我們來會設定那個資格條件我們會在工作層級會議跟印方這邊來做協商好那我們剛剛也有提到就是這個非法黑工的問題那我們在這個112年7月27號看到的這個新聞稿探討我們的八萬兩千"},{"start":5884.701,"end":5884.981,"text":"為什麼越來越多勒?"},{"start":5909.498,"end":5930.639,"text":"跟委員報告 監察院因為他針對這個失聯有做了一些 比如說他裡面特別提到包含因為移工他現在因為有一些受到一些經濟誘因所以這個部分像我們在前年我們就調整家事移工的薪資那另外就是說針對一些非法的包含媒介跟僱主可能現行罰則太輕造成有這樣的一個非法的動機"},{"start":5931.34,"end":5954.037,"text":"那這個部分我們已經提案到這個選擇救護法的修正案所以當初的這個所有的這個我們其實都有在做一個處理好那我這樣做結論我想我希望你們這個監察院的這個實相改善的建議你們要落實那這次開放這個引進印度移工作業那勞動部評估作業我個人認為這個還不是很完整也沒有公開"},{"start":5954.757,"end":5972.407,"text":"那社會溝通及配套措施好像有點不足,那引發社會的疑慮。那麼當然我們希望勞動部這邊能夠持續改善加強保障本國勞工並減少文化不同造成的一個誤解,好不好?那第二個我再請問一下"},{"start":5974.69,"end":5986.432,"text":"我們蔡總統任內一直沒有推動我們勞保年金的一個改革截至去年年底勞保基金規模只剩下8729億那經過勞保局的精算勞保基金在2028年就會破產2031年整體負債將會超過1.15兆目前政府對於千萬名勞工已產生潛藏的負債已經高達11兆3700億"},{"start":6004.136,"end":6015.223,"text":"那我們2039年起每年支出將會高達1兆元以上那我想我們勞動部對這個有沒有一個具體的一個改革的一個做法"},{"start":6016.818,"end":6045.072,"text":"報告委員基本上這個勞保是政府辦的社會保險政府也一定會付起這個不是可是你現在如果不改革你未來你不可能每年撥一兆那我們現在跟委員報告我們因為目前來講在2020開始我們先撥補是第一步但是因為後續的改革因為牽涉到一千萬的勞工那每個勞工的類型都不同"},{"start":6045.692,"end":6049.195,"text":"目前在持續跟這些各界溝通那包括說收集意見等等那因為這個推動還是有一個一定的社會共識"},{"start":6067.567,"end":6082.478,"text":"這樣子啦,部長,因為這個事情牽扯到就像你講的,非常廣大的一個勞工的權益那我也希望說,如果您在520之後有繼續留任那我希望您要勇敢來推動這個年金的改革,我當然知道困難非常的多"},{"start":6083.418,"end":6107.033,"text":"另外外界我們也期盼提高基金投資的收益到7到10%那我們去年呢是收益是1100億那當然成立以來我們的整體的收益只有4.5%所以這個比例還是蠻低的那當然也希望大家政府一定要謹慎來操作讓這個風險降低投資效益提高那當然剛剛講的這個"},{"start":6109.754,"end":6110.135,"text":"接下來我們請王振旭委員進行質詢"},{"start":6143.671,"end":6155.303,"text":"謝謝主席有請勞動部許部長整席今天的質詢的內容有部分是關於衛福部的業務所以也請衛福部的代表黃偉好"},{"start":6166.539,"end":6181.684,"text":"首先關於本次與印度簽署開放移工的MOU本席有兩個面向的建議對內本席建議我們勞動部必須要積極溝通才能夠凝聚國內的共識對外"},{"start":6183.945,"end":6201.188,"text":"本席也建議我們應該透過這一次的契機來持續推動與印度合作的這個相關的一些內容那我們這邊所提到的官方合作不只勞動部也希望會包括其他的行政機關是 謝謝委員我們會遵照辦理"},{"start":6201.889,"end":6221.021,"text":"好,那我們也知道勞動部應該要持續的針對各方的代表來妥善的溝通來化解疑慮來凝聚共識這個前面好幾位委員也都有提到相關的政策那當然我們也知道不同的立場一定會有不同的看法跟考量"},{"start":6221.681,"end":6250.129,"text":"所以本期建議勞動部應該持續的邀請包括所有的工商團體勞動團體等各方的代表來妥善的溝通讓這個社會的共識可以凝聚的更為完整讓這一項經過政府完整的評估而且是符合我們國際經濟發展的需求的政策能夠順利的執行這是非常期待的部分那我們所期許的各方面的這些推動"},{"start":6251.269,"end":6265.104,"text":"不只是在這個勞工的移入的同時其實醫療領域也是我們很期待的部分我們知道目前基於國際跟區域情勢的變化如果能夠簽署在MOU這類雙邊合作的時候"},{"start":6266.745,"end":6282.632,"text":"能夠有相關的這些帶動的話應該對於臺灣的整理發展會更佔有優勢那請教部長我們這次簽署MOU剛剛提到說沒有其他的利益的問題那我們是不是有連動的去促進其他層面的合作"},{"start":6284.889,"end":6309.274,"text":"其他部位其實他們早就有各項議題的合作我們這邊是屬於勞務所以其實台印之間的合作面向其實是越來越多但是就是各自的部會自己去做一些跟印方這邊做協商討論是是 其實以醫療領域為例因為我們知道印度他們對健康的照護也是非常的激情醫藥的部分我記得醫藥農業"},{"start":6311.954,"end":6338.484,"text":"都已經走在前面了是那在疫情最緊張的時候我們對於這位KK阿加瓦這位前西貿理事長的過世真的是表達對他的敬意因為他為了要率先防疫所以也不幸感染而死亡這部分我們覺得非常惋惜那我們期待說未來"},{"start":6339.204,"end":6356.504,"text":"在做醫療的部分簽署MOU的同時有沒有機會針對醫療的領域也有機會透過這些合作方式持續來執行那當然這個會是我們其他需要再持續努力的目標不知道衛福這邊有沒有其他的一些思維"},{"start":6358.284,"end":6374.578,"text":"目前部裡面這邊其實有關醫療的部分也都持續有這些包括新南向的一些政策那也都在持續在推動中是好謝謝那我們也知道其實移工的實在風險是很高的"},{"start":6375.68,"end":6390.016,"text":"那實現風險會上升的原因基本上就是因為工作類別造成的那我們很謝謝這些移工們到台灣來協助整個台灣的這些各方面的進步那我們也看到其實在"},{"start":6391.617,"end":6414.159,"text":"對於這個移工造成的影響是蠻明顯的從108年到112年這5年來已經有1000件以上的這些不管是失能或者是死亡的給付那請問我們最近對於這些移工造成的失能跟給付的部分我們看到的是案件那有沒有金額上的統計"},{"start":6415.816,"end":6445.479,"text":"金額這個部分我再給委員好不好那個金額部分我請業務單位整理以後再送給委員辦公室那就麻煩部長因為我們知道如果我們能夠有效的去控制管控這個失能或者是死亡幾戶的話那對於不管是對於他們的保護或是對我們整體的經濟在費用的處理也應該會有相關的影響那我們在強化這個職案的部分不知道現在勞動部有加強了哪一部分"},{"start":6446.039,"end":6468.264,"text":"我們其實對移工的這些職安委的宣導跟教育訓練都持續在進行那也會針對說高危險的高風險的一些行業像營造營造這方面我們也都會去列為我們的重點那也會特別加強移工在"},{"start":6470.628,"end":6487.014,"text":"製造、就是這些營造的高風險等行業的一些它的風險管理自己的風險的危害的意識還有應該要配備的相關的這些防護措施等等我們都有計劃在做一些推動"},{"start":6487.554,"end":6510.266,"text":"好 那就馬上部長繼續加強那移工安全的下游的部分就是醫療權益就是我們這些移工的醫療權益那其實目前跨部會的整合既有的醫療權益當然我們期待的就是能夠保障他們在當他身體有違和的時候能夠提供好的一個醫療處置那部長"},{"start":6514.048,"end":6520.035,"text":"有沒有了解新南向健康服務中心相關的資源的配置?那如何能夠有效的來連結這些資源?這個"},{"start":6528.854,"end":6554.199,"text":"包委這個部分我可能還不是那麼清楚我在了解以後是當然是不只是未來的印度籍的移工我們也期待假設現在已經在臺灣的這些移工也都能夠讓他們在就醫的過程裡面得到相關的一些好的連結因為我們至少有40家以上的友善醫院其實有提供這方面的服務模式"},{"start":6555.899,"end":6574.471,"text":"是國內的醫院體系是嗎?是我請業務單位了解以後我覺得這是很好的一個大家可以合作的政策好那就再麻煩勞動部還有跟衛福部這邊有更多相關的這個服務面向的連結"},{"start":6576.152,"end":6604.825,"text":"那我們再看其實除了這個部分以外很多很多的移工在就醫是有一些困境這個困境很有可能就是包括四大項因為他不熟悉我們的醫療體制他可能有語言上的隔閡他有怕擔心會受到歧視那有時候是因為工作的性質不容易請假所以我們也曾經去查過目前每位勞工平均一年"},{"start":6606.397,"end":6607.598,"text":"這次我們希望能夠持續來加強的部分"},{"start":6635.11,"end":6635.995,"text":"好,那我們看這個,所以"},{"start":6638.596,"end":6666.795,"text":"主席OK多兩分鐘那大加一計畫基本上是我們最近透過加一制度希望能夠幫助到臺灣尤其是慢性病的部分在事實上很多高科技、新科技是可以進來如果我們未來移工有這個需要也期待有這樣的計畫能夠協助他們這個可能還是要跨部會的這個結合能夠讓這個落實度會更好那我們再往下看最後的部分其實大家都很關心"},{"start":6667.776,"end":6681.821,"text":"很關心這些失聯移工人數也多了那他們的就醫造成的袋帳怎麼辦那醫院長期來墊付就變成每一家醫院的負擔尤其很多都是屬於地區醫院"},{"start":6682.921,"end":6706.372,"text":"那地區醫院它本身可能這樣的風險就已經比較高那如果是在地區醫院是私人醫院處理好以後或者是處理他們覺得無法承擔就把它轉到公立醫院那就變成公立醫院另外一項負擔所以這部分不知道未來如何能夠來協助加強因為我們知道目前是有海外工作基金等等的部分那"},{"start":6707.152,"end":6726.381,"text":"針對於如何能夠解決這些失聯移工醫療費用的代帳請問我們目前是不是有任何移工已經有成立的基金那如果跟印度簽署MOU這個議題能不能夠也把他納為在簽署MOU當中的一項"},{"start":6728.24,"end":6745.718,"text":"謝謝委員：我們會來納入討論的項目之一那這個海外工作基金到目前為止因為來源國都比較消極不願意配合不過未來我們會就是外國的連帶仲介的連帶保證責任這部分我們會來規劃"},{"start":6748.479,"end":6764.594,"text":"好,我覺得用這個可能會更能夠有效的去解決這個問題好,我們希望能夠盡快的成立齁那最後我們可以看到的就是目前齁,這些店鋪的部分我們看到就業安定基金指含瓜的"},{"start":6766.194,"end":6784.339,"text":"暫時會、旅費所以我們很期待就業服務法如果能夠把這個醫藥費也能夠納為他要墊付的這個項目的話那至少至少在這個醫療院所協助這些移工做醫療照顧的時候的費用是不應該被排除的齁"},{"start":6786.179,"end":6803.164,"text":"這個部分其實我們在行政院有討論過大家是認為這是不符合救安基金的使用目的因為這個還是屬於個人債務所以我們其實就是剛剛講的在跟萊恩國這邊再做一些溝通協商另外就是用這個科與仲介連帶保證的機制來讓這個問題"},{"start":6807.587,"end":6830.528,"text":"看能不能有效的解決好,那就麻煩看如何能夠協助我們醫院來解決這個待帳的問題再麻煩相關部會繼續幫忙,謝謝好,謝謝王振旭委員的質詢等一下廖偉祥委員質詢結束後休息5分鐘那我們現在請廖偉祥委員進行質詢"},{"start":6839.522,"end":6842.383,"text":"主席好 有請部長好 請部長廖元豪許部長你好不好意思稍等我一下好不好我們等這個PowerPoint把它弄出來好 OK好 我想要請教我們的許部長你知不知道你是現在就任至今已經2200天了是我們這個史上任期最長的部長"},{"start":6869.301,"end":6882.954,"text":"恭喜你所以我想要請問你回顧這2000多天的日子你覺得在你的任內勞動部最急切還需要加把勁的業務有哪一些你可不可以給我舉例三項我想"},{"start":6888.666,"end":6906.38,"text":"譬如說勞保年金的這些問題財務問題的解決我想這是大家所關注的那第二個就是像目前這個大家對移工失聯的問題希望能夠有效的能夠解決我覺得這也是重大的議題之一"},{"start":6907.641,"end":6930.077,"text":"第三個我想在薪資方面能夠持續來提升那我覺得這個部分勞動部因為有這個針對我們邊境弱勢勞工我們有這個最低工資法也通過了那相信未來透過這樣新的法律的一個機制然後能夠讓邊境勞工的照顧更周全是謝謝部長那我想要請問你會不會繼續督軍在520之後繼續負起責任來往前推動"},{"start":6935.412,"end":6945.512,"text":"報告委員我齁目前就是把我目前的工作做好希望在520之後能夠順利交給新任的部長所以你就有覺得不想要再續任了"},{"start":6947.009,"end":6965.721,"text":"我覺得應該可以讓更多長才來發揮更多長才來發揮那如果部長沒有要繼續擔任部長的話我們祝福你希望你可以轉職成功那也希望在你任內你很成功的就是推動你的這個中高齡就業服務的機制你會不會使用這個機制去找你新的工作"},{"start":6968.169,"end":6996.199,"text":"我覺得這個也是一個很好的不過我本身有專業還好啦所以你比較特別那請問所以你本身有專業還好那請問你會因為也有在外傳喔這個其實如果要跨業喔我如果不想回到我專業跨業我會來來善用這個你會來善用這個對不對那你會除了不要用中高齡我覺得我是壯士代很好我也喜歡壯士代喔那請問我們這個壯士代的部長喔你會考慮投入選舉嗎"},{"start":6998.287,"end":7008.274,"text":"目前沒有這個規劃沒有這個規劃我剛剛委員我把我現在的工作做好我印象就是這樣好因為有傳聞是這樣那沒關係我們今天趕快進入到正題下一頁"},{"start":7010.928,"end":7033.877,"text":"有關於11月16號的時候你們勞動部有貼文上一年的時候你們說假訊息那件事情之外有一句話很特別叫做勞動部深知目前社會對於印度開放移工來源還是有疑慮所以你們說那個時候尚未簽署也在草擬之中可是過了短短大概三個月的時間你們就簽署了請問部長你覺得有解決這個疑慮嗎"},{"start":7035.926,"end":7063.116,"text":"報告委員,其實疑慮的部分我們還是會持...所以請問你覺得有解決疑慮嗎?有一些有理解,可能有一些部分大家還需要我們再多溝通所以還沒有解決,對不對?我不敢說...因為問題一定會...你也有辦法說一定會持續啦有些人理解,有些人不理解那我們就是說不理解的部分我們還是要持續努力那為什麼部長排...你們自己也知道還有不理解的部分要這麼急著簽MOU呢?"},{"start":7064.717,"end":7087.633,"text":"報告委員我們的MOU他是一個架構就是雙方就這個勞務合作一個意向的一個簽署那後面那個實質的是部長我知道剛剛前面有幾位委員也提過那請問你們在做這件事情之前有沒有什麼評估的報告和方案或是評估相關的這個作業流程報告"},{"start":7093.067,"end":7120.05,"text":"報告委員我們業務單位在齁沒有有他們有做一些資訊的蒐集包括評估都有有做資訊的蒐集那你們有做一個報告嗎報告你們跟委員報告這一次我們跟印度在洽商大概主要的評估資訊是從向外交部還有包含印度台北市是好這些相關字我們把它做我要打斷您喔抱歉我想要打斷您的是說其實你們有你不知道喔部長"},{"start":7121.075,"end":7149.694,"text":"我上網查了一下你們官方的報告裡面有一個106年外勞來源國輸出政策走向及我國因應對策的官方評估對不對有嗎對不對所以你們剛剛是忘記了這件事不是忘記我本來以為以為我本來以為是說所以這是你們的因為我們那好沒關係我直接跳我請問因為你們這段時間新的報告等於沒做嘛最新的一份是這個嘛我網路上查到你們官方有的報告是這份那請問這是決策唯一的決策依據嗎"},{"start":7151.738,"end":7155.895,"text":"不是是依據之一好那我們下一頁"},{"start":7157.646,"end":7182.472,"text":"裡面有講到,包含你3月4號的新聞有說到印度是一個我們可以用的來源國因為依照目前的政經局勢還有可能印度受到中國大陸的干預比較少然後低於貧窮線的人口數也眾多加上跟菲律賓相同多數人可以用英語溝通而且數理能力程度加所以可以來做考慮的對象請問您是不是認同?"},{"start":7184.369,"end":7206.04,"text":"認同這個報告的這部分?認同嗎?認同對不對?部長請回答認同好但是同一份報告裡面也有專家說也有專家反饋他們認為印度比較不推薦因為他們的家族性常會使一次一大群人一起來而且語言跟文化差異性也較高請問部長你認同嗎?認同不認同?"},{"start":7210.141,"end":7221.758,"text":"這個就是他們的一個比較的意見嘛他們就是所以你認同這個概念嗎?你認同還是不認同?我是覺得這是專家的報告齁我們尊重啊好我們下一個"},{"start":7222.984,"end":7236.09,"text":"好那這裡也有講到這個印度跟臺灣的關係不錯印度的種族很多可能要考慮哪一個種族適合臺灣我想要請問這個部長您覺得是你們有評估過哪一個種族適合臺灣嗎沒有評估有還是沒有評估有評估嗎沒有評估沒有評估對是這個我們其實目前並不是以種族來考慮是來合作其實主要是對於未來他的條件"},{"start":7252.618,"end":7256.662,"text":"建議鎖定印度某些區域引進,如東北方的阿薩姆或周遭的六個省,信仰基督教且英文留理。請問你認同還是不認同?"},{"start":7278.749,"end":7300.528,"text":"副長,你認同?所以你部分有認同,部分不認同這個決議?我就尊重他這個報告,不能說任何人都尊重但是尊重也有認同和不認同嗎?因為我記得你也有提說,你們會優先從那三個部分來引進,對嗎?優先考量這個就是說,當初是說,未來我們會你有優先考量嘛,對不對?優先考量啦,當然就是有這個"},{"start":7301.53,"end":7324.216,"text":"好,所以其實你們有這個評估報告可是你們不太確定可是你也是部分的採用那再來對,再來就是這個裡面也有提到印度斯里蘭卡進入到家庭內勞工比較困難在語言溝通上有困難那還有同時應該要教育國人與回教徒及印度教徒的相處方式請問你們有相關的配套或是你們有相關的要執行的方向嗎"},{"start":7326.647,"end":7327.167,"text":"主席再給我2分鐘謝謝好沒關係下一頁"},{"start":7343.584,"end":7362.79,"text":"所以我上面只想要解決要告訴部長的事其實你們也知道社會的疑慮並沒有解除並沒有解除所以你們應該要再努力的這應該是你們要努力的方向因為現在我們在民間有接收到非常多的民眾對於這件事情的確有疑慮我在反映我們民意代表反映疑慮告訴你而且也要提醒部長"},{"start":7363.83,"end":7378.764,"text":"剛剛你們所有的報告裡面包含種族包含區域等等的其實我要提醒部長要小心不要變成人權笑話因為您昨天也才在印度移工說膚色相近的部分遭到藍綠都共同譴責所以要請部長小心好不好下一頁"},{"start":7379.665,"end":7399.324,"text":"那我們想要討論的事情是為什麼要移工喔常常講的就是缺工要如何解嘛可是我們政府往往一併就一律在思考的都是治標的問題就是只是開放移工好像就可以解決缺工可是治本也沒有做好所以下一頁我們現在遇到很大的問題是我們逃逸的移工數量暴增喔"},{"start":7400.455,"end":7400.715,"text":"您聽我說齁 其實在"},{"start":7425.136,"end":7452.562,"text":"最近的元素為什麼還暴增主要是3年的疫情我知道你的報告裡面有寫但是我跟委員但是我想要抱歉抱歉部長我們百醫社有比111我知道我都有看到數據我有認真讀你的東西但是你剛剛自己也有講到你有3件很重要的事情要繼續努力的嘛其中一項就是這個嘛所以我要提出來告訴你其實你並沒有做好你要再繼續努力好不好下一頁勞動部會繼續努力對那但是你缺工也沒有解決嘛所以你移工跟缺工"},{"start":7453.542,"end":7453.582,"text":"下頁下頁"},{"start":7484.823,"end":7508.512,"text":"因為非法的黑工他收入更優惑所以他就會逃跑包含很多建築工是不是他有他量能不足他還是偷用了這個失聯義工結果失聯義工一天的薪水都比合法義工還要高最後都被洗去當失聯義工對不對這是事實吧這是地氣這個是很接地氣的部分甚至很多農業的部分你們也不敢真的去抓對不對下一頁"},{"start":7511.107,"end":7532.478,"text":"譬如說有一些農業的需求因為沒有年輕人所以他必須用移工然後他的淡旺季分配不明顯所以導致很多人就是臨時去當了移工他們也願意雇用移工然後當你們要去稽查的時候還會特別通知在地的里長說要來稽查囉大家當天不要出現這都是在地方上和農業上真正發生的事情你有沒有意識到這樣的狀況部長"},{"start":7534.859,"end":7551.467,"text":"所以剛剛委員講的很對啦就是說其實很多是經濟因素所以像我們的那個家庭看護工我們也在把他薪資從一萬七調到兩萬所以我們未來也會針對非法僱用非法仲介這邊我們加重他的罰則"},{"start":7552.427,"end":7552.587,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7569.978,"end":7572.961,"text":"希望部長如果您在520之前希望你可以再大破大利的把該做的事情做好解決這個產業結構性的問題可以嗎好謝謝部長"},{"start":7600.183,"end":7602.256,"text":"好,謝謝兩位想委員的質詢,我們現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":7913.834,"end":7919.04,"text":"好 我們現在開始開會那接下來我們請黃秀芳委員進行質詢謝謝主席 我們請部長好 有請部長"},{"start":7933.82,"end":7960.887,"text":"部長好,其實我在好幾次之前都一直在關心我們這個有關逃逸移工的事情那尤其是在這疫情這兩三年當中這個逃逸的移工更嚴重那我相信部長還有勞動部這邊也有心要去解決這樣的一個問題那當然這個缺工的問題或者是說這個移工的這個來源"},{"start":7962.687,"end":7980.624,"text":"來源國其實我們也是要多元要不然真的哪一個國家萬一移工不再進來的話其實對我們的產業或者是有關社福的狀況可能會產生很大的問題所以我想請教"},{"start":7982.005,"end":7982.385,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7999.172,"end":8004.714,"text":"中研院的博士後研究也有很多的印度籍的研究人員也是在臺灣所以其實我看到就是說"},{"start":8020.178,"end":8048.132,"text":"要另外引進這個印度的移工到臺灣來其實我一個方面就是說讓這個移工的來源國能夠更多元那另外就是說印度籍的這些移工也許他們在中學或者是大學他們所受的教育語言大部分都是用英語那跟臺灣這邊對接的話語言方面其實應該也還可以可能這個隔閡可能比較不會那麼大那我想請教就是說"},{"start":8049.132,"end":8067.222,"text":"外界的疑慮我相信部長知道說外界在去年的時候這個消息釋放出來就是說要引進印度籍的移工之後那外界有一些疑慮那你們有針對這些疑慮跟社會做說明或者是溝通嗎"},{"start":8068.101,"end":8087.695,"text":"報告委員其實在去年有一些這些假訊息出來之後我們都有對外說明包括有一些歧視的問題比如說犯罪率等等那我們都有對外在說明包括說我們也告訴大家其實印度的移工素質是很好的在目前世界各國有"},{"start":8088.616,"end":8111.219,"text":"有用印度移工的其實都很肯定包括我們現在像我們鄰國像日本他開放比較晚可是他現在已經跟印度簽了他真的包括日本、韓國都在積極搶工包括以色列以色列他現在也是一直在積極要跟這個印度來洽簽這個勞務的相關的合作的契約"},{"start":8112.2,"end":8129.369,"text":"這個都是大家對那個印度移工的工作能力素質的肯定所以我們要讓大家瞭解那當然大家有一些疑慮的部分比如說他的犯罪率或其他的可能大家所擔心的部分我們的也有對外說明說其實這個我們要來台灣任何移工現在就是這樣子"},{"start":8130.45,"end":8130.73,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8152.261,"end":8178.83,"text":"關心的問題那在後續的工作層級會議裡面去做一些討論然後也將來應該是就是一些小規模的引進然後大家成效不錯我們再來擴大那所以也不會有說一次要引進幾萬人的這個移工進來嗎就是說看產業的需求對看產業的需求其實我們現在是這樣我特別要接這個說明就是說其實包括我們現在已經開放了四國"},{"start":8179.83,"end":8192.544,"text":"我們其實沒有規定說印尼多少人、越南多少人沒有,我們其實就是讓僱主自由去選擇所以我們現在新增了印度也是讓四個國家多增加一個讓這個僱主"},{"start":8194.887,"end":8208.152,"text":"他自己試他的需求去決定他要引進哪個國家我們不會去要求說你要進哪一國只是讓僱主可以有更多的一個選擇那我想請教就是說其實有很多這個臺商他們也有在印度那邊設廠那其實我另外一個想法就是說如果未來這個我們引進這個印度的移工那在他們到臺灣來這邊工作"},{"start":8223.797,"end":8252.108,"text":"對﹗"},{"start":8252.288,"end":8280.92,"text":"我第一個就是說我們其實後續的諮詢會議我們也會邀請曾經在印度投資或設廠或現在有設廠的台商來做我們的諮詢委員另外剛剛委員講的其實現在比如說像越南我們都台商在那邊設廠他也很希望說我們這邊如果移工回母國能夠過去不過我們也有那個機制去推薦就是說他給這個移工就是說你如果回去以後"},{"start":8281.44,"end":8306.738,"text":"你想要找臺商的公司或公司的工作那我們也會提供資訊給他們所以我覺得說這個一方面也可以讓這個未來就是說印度移工如果要來臺灣的話其實讓他更有意願那讓一方面也是協助我們的臺商我覺得說勞動部可能針對這個部分配套措施可能要再做更完善一點"},{"start":8309.179,"end":8322.607,"text":"配套更周遠的規劃部長我想請教其實我們的高教體系遭受印度學生已經有30多年的時間其實時間真的非常長"},{"start":8324.447,"end":8325.148,"text":"有,其實我們就是"},{"start":8350.899,"end":8376.262,"text":"像一些我們現在的已經進來台灣的移工那有技術的那我們都希望他們能夠留下來所以我們其實在那個跨國就是那個人口的移民政策的小組裡面我們就是在推中階就希望這些優秀的移工留下來然後包括他的進修我們有跟教育部在就是有"},{"start":8377.017,"end":8377.417,"text":"我們到2月底是超過2萬5"},{"start":8394.747,"end":8417.316,"text":"轉換成中階的包括產業移工、社福移工是25000多人每個月大概都有2000人來申請所以我們這個計畫大概就是到2030所以你們自己覺得說這樣的計畫推動的成效好不好成效很好因為像報告委員我們超標我本來是抓到2030一年一萬我去年就兩萬了"},{"start":8418.536,"end":8437.145,"text":"好所以是超標那我們其實對這個部分我們是很有信心的覺得這個部分這是好的一個機制讓優秀移工可以留下來他有好的薪資條件我們也會持續來努力另外就是說其實這個移工的引進那有的國家是由政府直接"},{"start":8438.305,"end":8438.565,"text":"職聘中心"},{"start":8454.092,"end":8474.999,"text":"就是國對國引進的一個機制只是說現在有些國家他比較消極比如說像越南他比較消極還有就是像印尼他那個家庭看護工他就是明文說他不適用他們國家規定說不適用引進的執聘的機制不然如果可以我們都希望能夠"},{"start":8475.979,"end":8490.949,"text":"大家藉由我們這樣的管道來引進尤其像那個叫什麼期約滿了之後的那個期滿轉換其實透過職聘可以幫忙讓他們可以省下一些仲介的費用所以我希望大家能夠來善用"},{"start":8491.969,"end":8508.297,"text":"一方面就是說我們今天在提到這個印度移工引進的這個問題可能社會的疑慮那也希望說勞動部要去適宜那另外一方面就是說我們目前這個流財久用剛剛部長覺得說這個成效還不錯所以我希望"},{"start":8511.818,"end":8532.802,"text":"因為我在上一屆我也希望就是說你們要到這個工業區可能要去做一些說明因為有一些中小企業他們就是有這個需要原本這個移工他的技術最純熟的時候結果他時間到就要回到他母國那到母國之後反而是自己再開一家公司來對打臺灣這家公司所以當然目前的這個狀況來講應該是改善很多"},{"start":8535.583,"end":8547.737,"text":"那個報告委員我們這個部分都有跟廠商聯合總會這邊在合作做宣導我還現在成立一個專案的移工流災總工中心在新竹那大家都可以透過我們這個"},{"start":8548.968,"end":8550.95,"text":"我希望就是說,部長我也知道你很辛苦,我也很願意來解決問題啦,那當然就是說,要這個"},{"start":8568.49,"end":8569.371,"text":"好,我們請王育民委員發言"},{"start":8604.912,"end":8606.414,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請許部長"},{"start":8613.786,"end":8616.448,"text":"本席告訴你,因為你們在這次的政策當中做了三步。第一個,不透明。"},{"start":8635.8,"end":8658.089,"text":"第二不嚴謹第三不溝通第一個我們現在談不透明的部分光就MOU的簽訂本席早出來之前在討論這個議題的時候你們只會一直說假訊息假訊息迴避了什麼時候要進印度移工這個議題在今年的2月15號"},{"start":8663.375,"end":8684.256,"text":"這個媒體報導說印度移工MOU簽署一言再言然後你們說要找合適的時間簽訂的方式結果就只隔一天隔天馬上發布一個訊息臺灣跟印度用視訊的方式簽署了MOU"},{"start":8686.175,"end":8713.611,"text":"部長,你們到底在怕什麼?就是當外界在關注你的進度的時候,你們不敢對外明確說明。我不相信這麼重大的事項,這個外交部的人員請上台,這麼重大的事項,我們要跟印度來簽MOU,可以在2月15號對外說,不太知道時間跟簽訂方式,隔一天立刻馬上視訊簽署。"},{"start":8715.872,"end":8741.137,"text":"這是不是刻意對外說謊到底在怕什麼呢剛剛我聽到所有的詢答部長您理直氣壯覺得我們引進這個印度移工非常有道理正當性非常的充足那你們為什麼遮遮掩掩為什麼迴避立法院的監督為什麼是用這樣子突襲的方式很快的而且還用視訊來完成這樣的MOU我們現在疫情早就解封了"},{"start":8742.557,"end":8756.206,"text":"視訊是因為疫情不得已那這麼重大的事項不能台印雙方好好的面對面還可以合拍一個很好看的照片嗎為什麼是這麼的臨時來請說明這是外交部該說的還是是勞動部該說的我來說明這個有關於簽署的部分因為你們什麼時候決定2月16號要簽署什麼時候"},{"start":8772.089,"end":8793.064,"text":"這個應該老早就要談定喔,你不要告訴我說2月15號下午零時決定。是1月嗎?還是2月?更早就決定了2月16號?沒有更早。你說啊,你記憶力怎麼這麼不好呢?沒有沒有,我先跟委員說明,這個視訊的方式是印方這邊建議的。"},{"start":8794.953,"end":8817.914,"text":"什麼時候決定的啦?印方一定很早就告訴你了日期我可能要再確認一下你為什麼不敢說明呢?在國會直接講我真的不記得那麼重要的事情你不記得那你記得什麼事?沒有那第二個就是說這個部長你迴避了我的問題我沒有迴避你的問題你的確就迴避了那那個勞發署署長講你也不知道嗎?"},{"start":8819.229,"end":8844.998,"text":"什麼時候確定2月16號簽署因為這個聯繫簽署日期一直跟印度駐台北協會在連洽那後來因為是葉會長因為他也針對這個問題他也提出了一些建議的時間點那確定之後那原則上我們就是做一些安排哪一天確定的嘛我再問啊這個日期其實一直在進行當中所以可能不是某一個你們這樣的回答很不行喔"},{"start":8846.679,"end":8864.054,"text":"這個就是遮遮掩掩我不曉得為什麼這件事情有什麼好不能公開透明的來外交部回答什麼時候決定因為這是台印雙方的事情哪有這麼不明確的2月15號還說不知道2月16號就簽署什麼時候跟印度敲定2月16號簽署備忘錄"},{"start":8866.056,"end":8890.92,"text":"報告委員這個印度台北協會他事實上確實也定期跟我們外交部保持聯繫溝通好什麼時候趕快講我自己時間有限因為這個時間也一直在動態在進行當中最後確定2月16號是什麼時候最後的話這個至少是在我們選後所以1月份就確定了對不對那2月15號勞動部還在對外說謊為什麼不敢講"},{"start":8895.381,"end":8923.411,"text":"我記得不是選後不是1月你看你們兩邊根本都都不懂這很奇怪到底是1月還是2月那部長你講你否定外交部的說法那你講那你記得什麼時候啊你如果能否認那就代表你知道是哪一天啊你幹嘛不敢講啊趕快講我知道不是1月但是你說問我確定哪一天我真的要你要回去查嗎好那你要向我告訴本席嗎"},{"start":8924.73,"end":8925.01,"text":"報告委員 這個報告委員"},{"start":8949.528,"end":8964.175,"text":"因為視訊就是還沒有完成程序啦照理說我們應該是完成程序以後其實是有規劃完成程序以後對外來說明就是因為換文才算正式那所以你們在急什麼沒有急啊我的意思是說報告委本來"},{"start":8964.935,"end":8991.11,"text":"跟印方那邊是說我們就先視訊然後等視訊雙方換文完畢我們就正式對外有一個公開的說明可是因為那天視訊的時候就是印方那邊先從印度那邊先說啊我們已經視訊了啊所以我們就趕快對外說也沒有遮掩就是說因為本來的想法是說因為你簽署還沒有完成是各簽一邊而已啊我們本來的規劃我跟委員報告我們本來規劃就是完成以後我們會對外說明那你什麼時候會完成"},{"start":8992.591,"end":9001.068,"text":"那個因為這樣子跟你的報告就不符合喔你們報告是說你們已經完成你對外新聞稿都是已經完成的MOA的簽署喔"},{"start":9002.898,"end":9030.139,"text":"二月十六是視訊簽署那你什麼時候換文完成換文完成是二月二十六那有報告就說外交部他二月二十六來給我們就是說公委說他們雙方換換文了那另外一個本席就要問你你這麼急著簽的這個MOU在去年你們的新聞稿十二月的時候你們一直在說十萬是假訊息然後我們會跟社會溝通本席就要問你"},{"start":9030.819,"end":9047.013,"text":"你從去年12月發的那個新聞稿之後你跟社會做了什麼溝通我剛剛聽到署長的回覆我傻眼了齁他說這些反對的團體呢我是用email給他然後email之後因為他都沒有回覆所以就這樣算了這個叫溝通嗎你有舉辦任何的公聽會或座談會跟社會大眾說明嗎舉辦了幾場你告訴本席"},{"start":9056.381,"end":9061.565,"text":"從去年12月到你簽了MOU2月16號總共開了幾場的公聽會或座談會跟國人溝通?零場,對不對?我剛聽到你回覆其他委員就是零,一場都沒有然後還用簡單的email跟這些公會或團體在拜訪的時候我有跟他們說明你們列出來,去年12月20號到2月16號"},{"start":9085.3,"end":9112.236,"text":"所以嘛你們的溝通我第一個是不透明第二個就是沒有溝通正式的溝通是什麼正式的溝通在委員會裡面要求各部會要做的就是你正式的座談會或者是公聽會而且要留下記錄到目前為止你們的回覆在台印MOU之前你們就是都沒有開報告委我們其實歷來齁報告委對不起我先讓我說我們歷來在增加來源國齁"},{"start":9113.997,"end":9139.251,"text":"這個MOU的簽署之前這個都是政府做一個評估因為這就是新增來源國給雇主多一個選擇所以過去是沒有召開公聽會或做談話去徵詢大家的意見說我要新增印度好不好你確定都沒有嗎我記得以前沒有你確定都沒有你有沒有問過陳菊那個勞委會主委你確定都沒有嗎沒有問過他對啊那你怎麼敢說都沒有但我覺得委員我是說這件事情喔"},{"start":9143.054,"end":9154.233,"text":"至少我認為,黃委員也在這裡都可以見證,好多的我們朝野各黨的委員都建議我們要新增來源國"},{"start":9155.236,"end":9159.699,"text":"這個是兩件事啊部長我現在在問你的是程序的問題我說你第一個是不夠透明簽MOU遮遮掩掩第二個是你不溝通公聽會跟座談會也不開新聞稿說你要溝通結果也沒有溝通第三個就是你的程序不嚴謹剛剛其實很多人在問你你到底經過了什麼樣的評估的程序結果你說你們內部開會人家問你開會有沒有會議紀錄也拿不出來"},{"start":9185.288,"end":9191.75,"text":"可以這麼的隨意嗎?開放一個這麼大的國家印度移工要進來結果你的程序是如此的草率這個就是本席今天要問你們的不是說贊成或反對的問題而是你這些做了沒有那這個部分我看起來就是沒有做嘛不夠嚴謹嘛所以這個應該要檢討嘛另外一個你一直說10萬的印度移工要進到台灣來是一個假訊息那本席就問你"},{"start":9212.955,"end":9242.035,"text":"你們自己的這一些相關的資料當中這個勞發署的專門委員對外說移工的缺口還有8萬那我就問部長這個是你們自己人講的你們勞發署評估移工缺口有8萬那這8萬是不是要從印度移工這邊進來因為你們說現有來源國已經下降阿所以你才要備另外一個開發新的來源國阿那我問你移工缺口8萬你怎麼補足"},{"start":9243.783,"end":9268.169,"text":"你沒有要從印度進來,那你要從新的開發國進來,那你要從哪裡補足?就現有需求啦對啊,你剛剛也有說我們有需求啊報告也是因為疫情嘛,疫情那個移工真的有短﹑人數有降來再來就是說,我們現在的好不然你改變你的說法好了,我們現在移工缺口有多少?"},{"start":9268.829,"end":9284.48,"text":"你回答本席這個才12月你們勞發署的專委對外新聞採訪的時候說的說移工缺口有8萬那如果部長你今天要改變說欸我們已經補足了好現在移工缺口還有多少我是要跟委員說那多少嗎不是8萬是多少你告訴我本席啊快點"},{"start":9285.58,"end":9299.973,"text":"這個我想專委我們的專委他應該就是業務單位他很清楚啦所以他這應該是正確的啊我的意思是說這個缺口並不是要從印度來補足要不然要從哪幾個國家補足現有的就可以啦現有的四國那何必再開放印度呢"},{"start":9300.954,"end":9320.122,"text":"這多一個選擇,報告委員,因為我們...你們剛剛講得很急切,說這個一定要開發,因為譬如說印度可能會下降,現在又告訴大家說從既有的來源國就可以補足,那這樣就沒有開放的必要啦,這很矛盾耶。不是不是,沒有沒有,報告委員,因為我們這個是一個好..."},{"start":9321.142,"end":9328.484,"text":"這個未雨綢繆啦,因為你現在這次的...那就不用急啊,既然是未雨綢繆,沒那麼急切我們已經跟印度方,就是說這三年我們都在討論部長,因為我時間很有限,我要告訴你的是說你要引進新的來源國,沒有人反對但你今天最大的問題是什麼?我剛剛講的那三點就是說你不夠透明,你也沒有好好的溝通"},{"start":9347.628,"end":9371.784,"text":"然後你的程序也不夠完備所以社會才會反彈你現在跟社會的溝通跟對話是完全不夠的連你們本黨的委員都這樣子講然後最後我要問你就是說這一些負面的衝擊跟影響剛剛一直在說這個移工的犯罪率低啊然後你換算那個比率等等現實的問題就是犯罪"},{"start":9372.404,"end":9397.865,"text":"他的件數就是在增加因為失聯的移工的人數也在增加換算比例是有點自欺欺人這些就是事實發生一件就是一個個案發生一件就是一個真實的數據所以今天本時要提醒部長是說面對問題才能解決問題而不是在報告上面一直美化說印度移工完全都沒有問題你這樣就不是撐回對話"},{"start":9399.727,"end":9424.704,"text":"沒有去看到人民心中的擔憂跟恐懼那如果你轉換另外一個態度你去多開座談會你開公聽會你好好的跟民眾解釋說針對犯罪的部分我們會怎麼樣預防針對逃逸的這些移工我們要怎麼樣強化我們的措施給大家一個安全安心的保證這樣的社會溝通就是成功的民眾就會反過頭來支持你"},{"start":9426.685,"end":9447.973,"text":"因為現在缺工的問題的確是產業界的一個現象而民眾的反對是他背後的疑慮跟擔憂所以我勸勞動部你們換一個態度來處理這件事情而不是用防衛的方式用否認的方式然後用美化的方式告訴大家說都不會有問題人家其他國家都很好大家都不要擔心"},{"start":9448.974,"end":9449.694,"text":"接下來我們請盧縣議委員進行質詢"},{"start":9484.658,"end":9484.678,"text":"請部長"},{"start":9498.925,"end":9501.728,"text":"8號委員我們其實在整個原住民的協助方面"},{"start":9527.796,"end":9553.694,"text":"我們持續的包括說就業的媒合職業的訓練我們都有一直在推動計畫在處理我要問的問題是說你們一年的編列的預算是多少針對原住民的勞工的一個比如說你說剛才的媒合或者是說你們的教育訓練有沒有編列多少的預算給我們我請署長查一下這邊有"},{"start":9561.621,"end":9588.021,"text":"我請署長說明跟委員報告其實原住民我們現在其實都跟原民會一起在合作那預算如果是以今年113年其實我們大概編列了4億7千多萬那其實這裡面主要就是協助原住民包含職業訓練還有就業媒合協助那其實目前這幾年下來其實原住民在透過相關的一些大概整個的需求我們大概盡量的來做一個使用率有100%嗎"},{"start":9589.102,"end":9598.377,"text":"現在目前的就業的情況其實比過去都好很多,失業率其實跟我們現在的一般也已經都接近了我這邊有個數字,去年推介的就業率達到"},{"start":9603.755,"end":9627.48,"text":"這是去年 74.32那我也同意這一兩個小時裡面很多委員所提到的執聘中心的檢討那我希望我本席辦公室也會收到你們檢討報告好不好然後接到我們進行今天的主題你部長告訴我一下你知道的印度是什麼樣的一個國家你的理解"},{"start":9628.186,"end":9654.558,"text":"他是一個文明古國有多元的這些豐富的文化那我的理解是他是全世界人口最多的國家是人口紅利他現在是人口紅利最多的國家包括青年的人口紅利那我們這次要來的是白領還是藍領我們是藍領藍領為主報告委員我們的白領早就有了我們現在在台灣的白領有2800多人我知道美國的引進的印度勞工是白領"},{"start":9656.027,"end":9684.287,"text":"所以我希望你們這邊能夠做一個所謂的限制因為他們的資訊的方面的所謂的也是很超前所以他們在美國錄用的印度移工是超過50%都是來自印度所以一旦我們簽署了MOU以後他們萬一有這方面的需求對我們這方面的要求會影響到我們本國的我們資訊業所以你們這方面要把關好不好"},{"start":9685.767,"end":9686.668,"text":"你可以預期多少人是來自哪一區是說哪一種語言嗎?"},{"start":9703.803,"end":9725.293,"text":"目前這個都還要透過工作成績會議來談MOU簽完以後接下來就是重點就是工作成績會議這個就是要來決定哪些行業哪些人數包括語言條件技能條件等等因為我們常常在很多地方會看到越南語、泰語的標示還有或者是馬來西亞那你有"},{"start":9726.127,"end":9726.247,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":9753.615,"end":9757.881,"text":"那你知道去年整個印度的傳染病的前7名是哪些疾病嗎?"},{"start":9761.67,"end":9786.718,"text":"對,就是去年的資料,最新的,那我們扣除第一個跟最後一個,也就是說它是屬於已經退流行的,也就是季節性的話,其實前,你扣掉COVID-19,後來後來的這個或是Type 4,其實這些在我們國家是比較少見,而且是第二名這個瘧疾是有死亡風險的,這個部分的把關應該要嚴格把關。"},{"start":9787.598,"end":9815.253,"text":"報告委員喔,如果有這些都進不來,因為他們要來的話,第一個他要健檢合格,然後進來以後我看到你們的衛福部的報告裡面的那個對針對我們移工的一個健檢的部分齁,其實對你們的標準的作業,其實對每個國家的移工的都是一樣的,沒有因為針對他這個國家的特殊性做調整,我希望能夠提醒說以後這個瘧疾啊,或者傷感這些,如果萬一跑進來的話你們要怎麼辦?"},{"start":9816.36,"end":9843.952,"text":"報告委員那個衛福部他未來他那邊要醫院經衛福部認可醫院的健康證明才會進來因為美國的幾乎所做的項目都一樣你不會因為針對是泰國是這樣然後印度是這樣我希望你能夠做一個修正是好不好沒問題有請看第1、2、3、4、5第5項是HIV他們的人口數這麼多所以這個部分你的那個routine的檢查裡面沒有這項這個項目"},{"start":9846.053,"end":9872.442,"text":"我是說你們的那個衛福部所要檢查的項目沒有包括這一項我有看那個第6頁的樣子這個部分委員我們會來注意就是每個國家的傳染病的狀況那你現在你知道現在我們的康復工就是來自越南或者是目前比較多的是印尼他們比較常發生的問題是什麼嗎我所謂的康復"},{"start":9874.932,"end":9903.684,"text":"那請你委員指教大部分他們都是知識水準沒有那麼高然後其實大部分都在看手機然後一直在跟他母國的家人講話視訊講話其實在真正在照顧我們老人家的那個時間其實沒有那麼多他就按照三餐或者是該換尿布的時候該換藥的時候就做或是其他時間都這樣那我的意思是說當然每個人每個人的自由或者是說他的工作的態度不過我要要求是是不是看護的那個教育程度要稍微好一點"},{"start":9904.841,"end":9926.273,"text":"至少在教他要怎麼換藥或者是要教他怎麼餵食的時候有一個基本的一個他的一個概念不然你完全沒有知識水準的一個看護工來的話你在照顧我們的老人家的時候你會放心嗎?是不是?是不是要做一個適當的調整?那你知道失戀移工都在哪裡嗎?大部分"},{"start":9930.066,"end":9952.953,"text":"我知道的私立移工大部分都在山上在種一些植栽然後那我知道他們的問題當然說他們要申請要變成所謂的合法或什麼那些條件都非常的嚴格所以是不是在找到他們以後能不能是不是在司法性上面能不能一些教育或什麼的"},{"start":9953.891,"end":9954.171,"text":"那再給我兩分鐘的時間謝謝"},{"start":9979.386,"end":9992.003,"text":"那針對我們的巴士量表我希望今天能不能有一個比較明確的答案你們有沒有已經在進行規劃還是什麼免巴士量表這個部分"},{"start":9992.503,"end":10016.248,"text":"報告委員我們現在就是巴士任表以外我們還有多元的認定方式包括你使用長照那個超過6個月還有這些失智的還有一些身心特殊身心障礙的這個我們都有放寬認定再來就是他從早免評從早以後不用再在巴士任表免評這個我們也有放寬這個我們會持續滾動檢討也會跟衛福部這邊一起"},{"start":10022.93,"end":10047.299,"text":"以他們的專業來處理是不是就一個疾病診斷書就可以來取代?因為巴斯列表實在是太浪費很多的資源尤其是住在偏遠地區的族人他們要包車還要請家人載他們然後有時候剛好看的科別醫師請假或者是說他不願意的話他又要再花一天再過來等於是勞思動眾"},{"start":10048.86,"end":10063.634,"text":"報告委因為我們基本上康務工能夠聘請康務工他就是私能對我是說私能的認定其實在巴士量表巴士量表他是一個我想是各國所承認的標準只要是在台灣獲得合格醫師的執照他不會亂開"},{"start":10067.958,"end":10068.278,"text":"現在請楊耀委員"},{"start":10100.819,"end":10101.46,"text":"部長好部長我們現在"},{"start":10126.513,"end":10150.228,"text":"外籍移工的政策我們的勞動政策是補充性的勞動力對不對是並不是替代性的可是這個到底是補充還是替代呢他有有有很多有很多有很多模糊的的地帶也就是說假如說"},{"start":10152.213,"end":10177.419,"text":"我直接這樣子講好了比如說這幾年我們政府都有超預算徵收稅款這個我就直接大膽的假設是多數的企業其實是有賺錢的對不對才會有那麼多稅款可以收嘛那"},{"start":10181.636,"end":10208.34,"text":"假如說我們還缺工那麼厲害有沒有一種可能是因為受薪階級的薪資並沒有隨著經濟的成長增加?這個有沒有可能?有沒有可能?那正在勞動部的立場部長做過什麼還是有什麼你可以做的?"},{"start":10211.256,"end":10234.493,"text":"你說有可能嘛,對不對?那勞動部站在保護勞工的立場,就加薪的部分有沒有做跨部會的溝通協調?有,像我們疫情的醫後呂樹葉的那個房屋清潔缺工的問題,那基本上他就是薪資太低啦"},{"start":10235.814,"end":10251.358,"text":"所以在這個時候但是他又缺工那我們希望能夠導入本國勞工願意到缺工行業去所以就是我們跟交通部就雙管齊下交通部他就做一個補貼業者他有要補貼有我來獎勵勞工讓他這個除了薪資以外"},{"start":10257.133,"end":10280.509,"text":"我向我獎勵勞工他還可以增加收入希望就是說能夠讓他的薪資未來就是帶動提升起來除了公部門做的部長剛剛講的就是交通部來補助理事業者然後你來補助勞工對不對除了這個以外到底政府有沒有辦法去"},{"start":10292.077,"end":10308.167,"text":"現在經濟部就是關於那個加薪減稅的那個措施他們好像是要希望再延長就是說跨部會像我們當然薪資的部門像我們每年調整基本工資我們也呼籲僱主能夠跟進那經濟部也透過加薪"},{"start":10308.507,"end":10313.051,"text":"我為什麼先提這個問題呢因為這個問題會你的薪資跟消費指數差太差太大的話就會讓所有的勞動力都變成都變成補充性的懂我意思嗎"},{"start":10339.581,"end":10341.622,"text":"所以跟委員報告我們也一直在跟企業主呼籲他一方面在喊缺工缺財"},{"start":10363.434,"end":10388.04,"text":"但我們也提醒他,你的薪資條件是不是合理?你的勞動條件是不是OK?還有就是說你的企業的整個發展,會不會讓勞工有願景?這個都是勞工要不要去你的公司上班的,他要去思考的。所以就是說各方面都是要去,大家要做努力啦。不是說你喊缺工,但是你什麼都不做。我再怎麼努力,"},{"start":10388.9,"end":10404.077,"text":"勞工不願意去我也沒辦法你一直用那麼低的薪資不過我還是要講啦就是說對勞工最大的保障還是要企業可以穩定的成長所以我們並不是說只是說看起來這幾年就是國內的企業是賺錢的連帶的國家的稅收多嘛"},{"start":10410.884,"end":10437.952,"text":"那企業賺錢沒有回饋給受僱的勞工這個當然會自然會產生缺工的狀況就是維林講的沒有錯因為有賺錢那這個就是我們講的經濟果實要跟勞工分享對我覺得這個問題台灣政府必須要很正式而且要努力的去把它處理好"},{"start":10449.327,"end":10456.794,"text":"部長我問一下我們現在就是要引進印度的勞工"},{"start":10462.845,"end":10490.058,"text":"臺灣當然因為高齡化我們剛才講的那個問題是也是缺工的一個現象那最主要的就是高齡化跟少子化少子化當然就是工作年齡人口跟勞動力會下降那高齡化可能就是反而會產生高齡者的照顧需求者重我們現在"},{"start":10493.206,"end":10521.413,"text":"移工的主要來源國只有4個國家我看韓國、日本他們大概來源國都有10個差不多10個以上那來源國少存在的風險是不是比較大?是是嗎?這個也就是為什麼我們積極跟印度的一個原因嗎?"},{"start":10525.39,"end":10526.694,"text":"那為什麼我們沒有辦法"},{"start":10528.373,"end":10554.688,"text":"多找一些國家來簽訂協定其實委員過去像發展署這邊也都很努力去找一些東南亞的國家但是有些譬如說他們意願或條件或政治因素的考量等等這個都造成我們一直沒有辦法順利找到適合的移工來源國的原因"},{"start":10555.367,"end":10556.728,"text":"我最後問一個問題就是"},{"start":10584.949,"end":10603.652,"text":"李樹葉啊李樹葉其實現在缺工也缺得很厲害那有沒有打算要開放李樹葉的報告委員這個議題那個觀光署有提提那個"},{"start":10604.585,"end":10624.338,"text":"有評估過來我們也開過專家學者的會議2月1號有開過但因為他的報告還有一些內容包括因為他之前好像只有針對那個觀光旅館而已那包括民宿沒有對我現在要問的就是所以我們就要求專家學者要求他們"},{"start":10625.298,"end":10648.314,"text":"要各頁不僅觀光旅館包括民宿等等他們的缺工情況還有他們的工作負荷的要求等等薪資還有你的薪資所佔的成本的比例還有你有沒有可能用使用中高齡高齡者來就業還有自動化都要他們再補足"},{"start":10649.246,"end":10669.097,"text":"因為民宿比較特殊,它很難去符合本外勞的比例以澎湖的旅宿發展來講,其實民宿的發展的速度是比旅館、飯店要快得多而且也多得多"},{"start":10669.837,"end":10689.423,"text":"所以這個在討論的時候請部長這邊注意一下各地區的發展特殊性也一併考慮一下委員這個部分因為會由關公署來提案我會轉給他們提醒他們這個部分要特別的去了解好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 我們謝謝楊耀委員的質詢接下來我們請劉建國委員進行質詢"},{"start":10711.613,"end":10723.758,"text":"來,部長,好了齁請部長,謝謝主席好,有請部長部長,姚委員剛剛講那件事情齁,我覺得他問得不太精確這個齁"},{"start":10728.206,"end":10748.403,"text":"李肅業主計總處統計是高達5,221人但業者提供給勞動部的專案持缺人數就只有剩下1,346人這個落差為什麼會這麼大?是不是勞動部在資格的限定上太過嚴苛?不嚴苛,我們北部的薪資3萬,中南部東部2萬8"},{"start":10757.879,"end":10777.779,"text":"主席總書統計資料是52221嗎?我的意思是說你要來用我缺工的協助方案我們有給業者希望你要薪資達一定的水平才能夠參加我們這個方案你不能低薪很低然後又要叫我來"},{"start":10781.183,"end":10799.989,"text":"所以你們有各個面向的一個審核,之後才去做核定就對了啦?這確實是這樣出來的是不是?你這顯然你要跟主席總書溝通嘛,這樣落差,他是以實際上的缺工,去把這個數字呈現出來,那你沒有用很多的面向去做一個審核,才去做這樣的一個提報,是這樣嗎?合定?"},{"start":10802.952,"end":10826.711,"text":"是不是這樣,不然這個落差值3000多人,這其一嘛齁,你看齁,其二你看勞動部在這個我們的救護機構推介了6507人的時候,其實專案職缺錄取人數才690人,嚇我啊,一成多,所以這邊也要很嚴謹,這邊要更嚴謹,還是這邊...不是不是不是,因為我們推介了他不用啦"},{"start":10830.147,"end":10852.88,"text":"你們推薦他都不用,你們推薦是有問題不是,沒有問題,我們都有照他開的那個規格條件去幫他找人可是我們推薦過去他不用,他缺工當然他挑工你照他們的規格推薦過去他還不用,他們挑戰你們業者在缺工的情況之下還在挑戰你們"},{"start":10855.151,"end":10883.631,"text":"沒關係啦,部長,我就把這個數據提供給你做參考這個數據明顯上是有問題的一個現在進行式啦是不是給我們數根資料到底你怎麼做這樣的一個處理方式好不好我覺得還是要討論這個啦,開放印度移工我坦白講我真的會持有不同的意見啦因為我看你們的報告,等一下把報告拿過來給我一下我不曉得為什麼現在要去開放印度移工的原因最主要是什麼"},{"start":10885.374,"end":10900.271,"text":"因為其實委員長久以來社會各界還有包括在大院的朝野委員之前都有希望我們能夠去開展尋找新的來源國因為"},{"start":10901.112,"end":10916.452,"text":"到目前為止只有4個來源國齁那有時候這個依賴風險會很大啦依賴風險嘛對不對所以我們就因為有依賴這樣的風險所以就必須要分散風險嘛你的邏輯是這樣嘛對不對但是目前的移工來源國並沒有缺工啊目前"},{"start":10917.952,"end":10940.549,"text":"目前的移工來源國是當然可以引進移工但是如果他減少像現在泰國的移工不太進來我們的營造業過去都蠻依賴泰國移工但是真的最近的業界跟我們反應就是說不太能夠找得到人印尼也曾經一度"},{"start":10941.97,"end":10955.135,"text":"用零負擔的政策也暫停引進它是在2020年很初零互惠嘛對不對對,所以那個都對我們的僱主造成高風險所以我們也必須去多增加來源國來讓這個過度依賴風險能夠降低"},{"start":10959.236,"end":10979.165,"text":"對2020那個零互惠要這個輸入的僱主自行負擔所有的規範也勞動部去跟印尼政府去做相關溝通之後才取消嘛所以他時不時到時候又有什麼狀況你們要很會心的去處理這樣的事情所以你必須要去做這樣的分散風險對不對但是部長你看現在這個數據顯然沒有在分散風險怎麼說四個國家進來你看外企在看護"},{"start":10986.795,"end":11007.727,"text":"家庭看護工、印尼是我們總托都是20萬出嘛齁那印尼就佔了16萬對照其他三國的比例已經高達79%嘛我們沒有再做任何的分散調整了這其一啦齁這個數據當然是現在的數據了這個過程5年因為我時間的關係不然照理講你的報告裡面應該把這個數據給我們做參考其一啦齁其二你看這個產業製造業的製造業的部分齁"},{"start":11017.178,"end":11039.743,"text":"4、7萬多印尼、馬來西亞、菲律賓、泰國、越南又是最高的,佔了46%一個佳嶺康復工,印尼是最高79%然後四頁面的這個移工製造業的越南市22萬多是佔了46%多這5年的變化怎麼樣?我想我如果還沒有看到資料,我可以推敲,就是這樣嘛"},{"start":11040.495,"end":11064.357,"text":"所以我們讓一個輸入國的這個勞工的比例一直持續的高居不下我們就會製造更大風險的存在而不是你現在去再輸入一個新進的一個來源國就可以去降低風險這是我的邏輯跟我的思考比如你在這個基礎面你不去做相關的調整而後你就會再遇到像印尼那一個零互惠的事情再發生一次"},{"start":11066.119,"end":11093.375,"text":"問題是這樣因為基本上就是他要選擇哪個來源國的移工這是雇主他來決定我們其實會尊重雇主的選擇像雇主他會喜歡用印尼移工他覺得他可能就是比較乖巧然後比較不是啦我們引進進來我們要分散風險然後部長你又打呼我說是尊重雇主他要聘來一個國家的"},{"start":11093.575,"end":11095.357,"text":"其二,你看今天的報告,不管是勞動部、不管是移民署,針對這個逃跑外遙"},{"start":11117.065,"end":11140.134,"text":"去年的1月已經來到8064人了齁8萬出了齁今年的1月已經來到85947報告裡面從頭到尾沒有提到這事情怎麼處理是其一喔那其二印度的印度的輸出他國的這些移工在他國的逃逸情況是什麼狀況"},{"start":11141.667,"end":11152.835,"text":"報告裡面也完全沒有提出所以所以你今天要跟我講說印度移工進來之後會不會我們可能明年就會突破逃跑外島達10萬的10萬人的這個大關這個報告委員自己沒有沒有部長你先聽我講我今天要去贊成你做這個政策之前我當然要做"},{"start":11163.776,"end":11190.757,"text":"我要看到你們相關的資料是讓我們可以安心的讓我們可以去對外說得清楚的對不對我們今天針對淘寶外勞因為過去疫情的關係種種這個我都很清楚因為確實台灣也缺工的非常嚴重然後在惡性循環的情況之下每年累積了這麼多人那現在在開放印度的這個移工進來那印度的移工在他國的整個整個他們的情況淘寶的比例到底是多高我們都不清楚"},{"start":11191.516,"end":11205.558,"text":"那你現在是要來引進他們來衝破十萬大關嗎?你這個要讓我們知道啊然後你勞動部難道只是引進人然後抓人就是移民署那移民署也沒有在這個報告裡面特別提到這個事情啊"},{"start":11206.92,"end":11232.896,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們再來收集相關的資訊因為我們之前所理解的它其實在世界各國的一個使用狀況還有包括說它的逃跑等等並沒有說特別的這個嚴重的狀況但是如果剛剛委員講的我們再請再來收集資訊並沒有特別的嚴重狀況那我希望我要求勞動部提供這個資料給我們對比其他各國"},{"start":11234.056,"end":11259.497,"text":"對比印度的移工在他國的情況逃跑的比例怎麼樣給委員會做參考嘛這基本嘛對不對然後另外一個你們在報告裡面又寫的我覺得寫這個對部長絕對是不好啦推銷好像在推銷這個印度的移工有多好你們很多問題都沒有去討論到嘛報告中提到印度憲法已經明文禁止印度教的種姓制度歧視問題"},{"start":11261.292,"end":11283.942,"text":"這事實是沒有錯啦,但是其實行為是可以透過憲法跟法律名義就可以禁止嘛你也知道這是不可能的事嘛但是你為什麼報告寫這樣,我也不曉得然後進來的基本上絕對是他們最底層的這個勞動階級嘛他們進來我相信他們也會珍惜他們的工作機會我也相信嘛但是這又牽涉到人權問題我們在齁,我們在這個"},{"start":11287.08,"end":11312.874,"text":"長期被國際關注,甚至於美國國務院在2021年的時候,人權報告中也特別提到臺灣移工的權利問題。這兩件事情在一起。那,印度移工要引進到臺灣相關的資源系統,被起了嗎?被起了嗎?建制,有沒有事先的建制作業?因為文化不同,語言不同。"},{"start":11314.482,"end":11330.589,"text":"而且又在部長你的任內都還沒有開放新的這個移工來源國的情況之下就是你當部長這麼久第一次要做事情那這些事情都沒有做相關好的評估還有甚至於應該要建設的前置作業都沒有做之前"},{"start":11331.667,"end":11355.082,"text":"你就要做了嗎?沒有,報告委我們現在MOU簽署只是說大家合作的意向初步那接下來就是會進入實質的討論包括相關的配套規劃這個我們都會來處理因為其實從MOU簽署然後後面工作層級會談完你說我們要整個確定以後我們才會正式公告不是不是今天召委排這個你就要"},{"start":11355.962,"end":11357.823,"text":"好,那我最後就這樣好不好,第一個"},{"start":11384.744,"end":11406.789,"text":"我剛才提到分散風險的方法、方式是不是有更精準的一個處理的一個方向那第二個總性文化的不同然後我們前置的作業預估你們怎麼做嘛那第三個就是剛剛我特別提到說他們在他國的這個情況"},{"start":11408.877,"end":11420.643,"text":"的逃逸的比例是怎麼樣?是不是可以我們提供做參考?以上。好不好?謝謝。好,謝謝召委。謝謝。我們謝謝劉建國委員的質詢。接下來我們請林淑芬委員進行質詢。主席,各位大家午安。是不是請我們這個許部長。好,請許部長。"},{"start":11441.55,"end":11461.199,"text":"林委好部長好好久不見了這個是我重新回到未完委員會第二次諮詢看到你很開心我可以站在這裡我也很開心我要請教你第一件事情請教一下你知道印度的人口大概14億裡面會講英語的大概有幾%嗎這個"},{"start":11465.154,"end":11470.96,"text":"你不知道?你都要評估MOU都簽下去了要評估輸入嗎?你不知道?你說中了還要查詢?"},{"start":11476.874,"end":11505.353,"text":"我告訴你人家都告訴你答案了你連看都沒有看過清大印度中心副主任方天賜他說許多人誤以為印度人都會講英語雖然他們官方語言是印度話跟印度語跟英語可是事實上全印度會講英語的人口大概只有10%未來在語言翻譯上將會是一項關鍵的成本那我們就看到部長你署長你不用再查我可以告訴你10%"},{"start":11507.574,"end":11509.115,"text":"來源地區將來我們會在工作層級會議來做討論"},{"start":11535.751,"end":11549.445,"text":"那我的意思是說印度是一個非常多元族群的國家我們對政府要開放這個輸入的政策真的要有相當程度的了解在印度使用的語言一萬人以上使用的語言有122種"},{"start":11553.949,"end":11571.211,"text":"那在這種狀況裡面為什麼講這個呢是因為這個準備的工作很龐雜你們去簽MOU你們去跟印度談然後你們自己國內要準備工作籌備會議工作籌備等等你們必須要討論的是"},{"start":11572.953,"end":11590.441,"text":"要如何協助雇主乃至於全台灣的社會跟印度移工之間的文化適應還有將可能面對的衝突不要把一個好的外交突破或者是移工政策變成外交危機"},{"start":11592.728,"end":11611.669,"text":"有沒有可能?當然是有可能的。臺灣僱主根據你們自己叫移工管理及運用調查統計報告你們自己勞動部做的報告裡面,你知道嗎?那個事業單位,你們自己做的有效樣本是8,562份"},{"start":11614.352,"end":11631.904,"text":"事業單位的僱主4534份家庭僱主4028份你知道事業面僱主在管理和運用移工時曾遭遇到的困擾有44%都遭遇過困擾其中最大的困擾是什麼你知道嗎阿蘇丁你知道嗎保證一塊就知道不一樣語言不通幾%你知道嗎事業單位的僱主幾%"},{"start":11645.385,"end":11648.488,"text":"你不知道?你自己做的報告你都不知道?現在68.2%"},{"start":11654.229,"end":11670.665,"text":"再來就是發生逃跑失聯34%再來是溝通困難如配合度不高等27.4%是你們自己做的事業單位那家庭僱主方面遇到困擾的35.7%困擾的原因語言不通還是56.1%居高"},{"start":11676.65,"end":11688.404,"text":"所以我們今天要講說的確語言溝通困難這個事實是存在的而且僱主這幾十年來一致都認為這是最大的障礙之一啊"},{"start":11689.485,"end":11717.428,"text":"那我們今天這個台灣印度研究協會他們在去年你們政策說要開放的時候也有發表聲明他們表示支持循序漸進的開放印度移工希望政府相關單位要成立專家諮詢小組匯集民間的意見進一步的規劃引進印度移工的配套措施"},{"start":11718.749,"end":11738.194,"text":"要正確的理解印度社會的特色跟台印關係的重要性但是呢你們也說未來要透過共同審議研議然後循序漸進務實辦理那現在請問一下有沒有具體擬定的工作方向有沒有要聘請專家成立這個專家諮詢小組那籌組的專家諮詢小組有沒有"},{"start":11743.676,"end":11746.999,"text":"有沒有開過會還是已經成立了沒?有,報告委我們已經成立,剛剛3月1號也開過會"},{"start":11751.598,"end":11778.331,"text":"開過會你們請的專家諮詢小組是真的專家還是你們內部會議邀請專家是外交部給我們的印度專家外交部有給我們建議的名單所以是你們內部的這個工作層級會議還是你們內部的另外我們工作層級會議還沒有是你們的準備會議邀請了外部的對諮商的我們會現在會有諮詢小組那比例有多高"},{"start":11780.322,"end":11807.508,"text":"什麼比例你們署長跟委員報告因為我們現在臨編專家在你們整體會議就是有相關跟印度方面比較了解的像一些學者那這裡面也有包含就是過去在印度沒有不要我再問你的比例啦你們行政人員占了九成九然後邀請一個專家也是專家這全部都對啦我們其實基本上我們都是邀請專家學者然後還有相關部會代表一起來討論"},{"start":11810.22,"end":11814.821,"text":"我現在在這裡要跟部長分享因為這是一個新開發的市場老實說我現在不想問你這個問題不用切切私語我要請你專心聽"},{"start":11827.465,"end":11846.097,"text":"新聞報導你留任的機率很高所以我們未來的勞工政策還仰賴於你但我現在有一個大的數十年來從開放外勞到現在大家都覺得錯誤的引進政策都已經來不及改了你剛才人家質詢問你職聘的時候你也覺得說現在的狀況已經很難走回頭路再改了"},{"start":11852.461,"end":11867.616,"text":"所以過去錯誤的外勞引進政策比如說國家退位沒有政府純粹引進都靠外勞仲介引進來以後語言不通專業不專業沒有技能的訓練這個問題都丟給雇主"},{"start":11870.339,"end":11880.304,"text":"所以整體的外勞政策就是由僱主和仲介去承擔國家都只負責收錢而已所以這樣過去錯誤的外勞引進政策這是一個最好的導正的時機"},{"start":11887.648,"end":11905.037,"text":"因為人家質疑你說你開放這個市場引進這個市場是不是因為有另一批提供這個人力仲介業者龐大的這個利益機會然後你又要如何避免說這個純粹是造福仲介業者而已"},{"start":11905.777,"end":11913.603,"text":"如果照過去錯誤的引進外的這種政策對啊沒錯啊訓練也是仲介啊然後仲介剝削仲介不當的管理然後沒有專業訓練然後丟給雇主承擔啊那今天這一個對印度開放印度勞工的模式啊這是一個好的契機喔從來沒做過我們MOU要簽的時候我們現在國對國要談的時候"},{"start":11930.574,"end":11934.256,"text":"我們是希望說啊你們這個移工政策檢討的好契機在這裡國對國的職聘我們弱化私人仲介負起國家責任而國家要做到什麼責任雖然你們有談到說印度要負起這個語言的訓練啊等等啊"},{"start":11949.042,"end":11952.344,"text":"不管印度或台灣我們要負起幾個責任包括生活語言的訓練、專業的培養當然要杜絕移工被剝削只有移工不被嚴重的剝削那這樣子他才能夠安心的穩定的在台灣就業"},{"start":11969.013,"end":11969.173,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11999.373,"end":12027.726,"text":"那不要忘了你知道RBARBA他們對於國際品牌其實做了一些集合台灣的供應鏈也接受集合那台灣的哪些廠已經說他們要對這個移工零付費模式他們要付起這個廠那個老闆說我們自己來吸收有哪幾個廠"},{"start":12031.214,"end":12037.84,"text":"BNA的行為準則為電子業和它的供應鏈制定了規範它當然是拿品牌形象、國際形象、大廠、大牌有能力的先開刀"},{"start":12058.135,"end":12073.622,"text":"那其實那個目的是要確保員工安全的工作環境有尊嚴而且接受尊重的工作而且要符合環保規範符合商業的誠信道德所以在這種我們的"},{"start":12074.822,"end":12102.961,"text":"企業當然是大企業也願意實施移工零付費模式了那在這種狀況裡面世界爭相競逐要的這個印度輸出的勞動力勢必也是要比各國勞動的就業環境也是人家也是要比啊那你知道阿比耶這樣子說我要集合你以後台灣的企業就有一些人就說我要實施移工零付費模式人家批評了一句話什麼話你知道嗎"},{"start":12104.422,"end":12107.424,"text":"這個政府比不上一個國際的NGO啦你有辦法做到零剝削嗎?移工零付費嗎?你有做到對移工的專業訓練、生活語言訓練嗎?都沒有現在一個RBA"},{"start":12123.464,"end":12139.322,"text":"非官方的機構人家讓我們台灣企業帶頭在做那其實我部長要跟你講這個事不是說你比不上阿扁而是說這個未來一定會成為趨勢而且一定會朝向這個方向"},{"start":12140.961,"end":12168.763,"text":"所以這些企業類似企業的基本責任也要朝這個方向走所以這是一個好的時機好的時機就你印度開放的模式輸入的模式應該要將過去錯誤的引進政策導正做一個好的檢討比照像是以色列的模式由印度政府負責培訓以色列的模式主席我最後講以色列模式雖然我還有其他要講"},{"start":12171.6,"end":12191.567,"text":"以色列模式是由政府,印度政府負責培訓,而且訓練內容是由台灣,要由輸入國來提出,而且我們要針對過去可能被詬病的環節要去扭轉,比如說韓國將語言基本能力測驗列為基本選工標準,"},{"start":12193.707,"end":12214.798,"text":"進階的技能檢定他沒有強制但是他有這個那入境以後要提供基本訓練希望還能夠依職類開設相關的職訓和中文課程我們要其實不是顧到我們而已也要有利於移工來台後職場及生活適應而他適應了對僱主也是好的"},{"start":12216.079,"end":12237.391,"text":"甚至我們你再積極作為你要想移工你來台以後可能還可以推如果你返回印度我們是不是引介你回到印度的台企裡面去工作優先引用、禁用然後增進兩國的經濟人才的交流然後增進兩國的外交的情誼和合作的關係"},{"start":12239.252,"end":12266.633,"text":"我想剛剛講這個國對國的引進啊然後負起政府責任啊然後剛剛講政府要扛起更多的這個負責的訓練還有要求不要把不要跟過去一樣都跟你無關你只收那個四千四千多少四千五現在沒有調漲吧兩千啊然後如果你是那個3K5機制在家不是啦你們那個救安基金那一筆繳多少錢"},{"start":12267.589,"end":12267.889,"text":"國對國執聘可以嗎?"},{"start":12290.163,"end":12316.218,"text":"這個也是我們未來工作成績會其實這個也是我們一個重點我想現在在場的委員都會支持我們支持印度模式成為未來模式的示範然後導正過去錯誤的政策印度模式就從國對國執聘弱化私人仲介從中巧立名目的這個剝削移工的這個機會然後也證明你不是為了人力仲介業去開發這個市場的可以嗎"},{"start":12321.009,"end":12328.214,"text":"臨時提案第一案建於勞動部與印度完成簽署促進雇用引進印度勞工瞭解備忘錄MOU引發民眾恐慌社會嘩然"},{"start":12341.883,"end":12362.31,"text":"且經查勞動部跨國勞動力政策協商諮詢小組﹐過去兩年並無任何有關印度移工引進的相關討論提案與決議﹐原此建請勞動部﹐一、進行社會影響評估﹐勞動市場影響評估﹐政策可行性評估報告﹐二、邀請勞資政學還有移工仲介"},{"start":12363.03,"end":12386.096,"text":"與移工權益代表在立法院召開公聽會．緊速在各縣市政府逐一召開說明會盤證現有同意與移工生活轉業等服務量能．最後針對現有失聯外勞暴增現象提出階段性精進改善計畫與目標勞動部在未完成上述精進作為與目標前不得禁止開放印度移工路徑"},{"start":12386.936,"end":12415.043,"text":"提案人委員．圖全吉．連署人委員．陳金輝．蘇清泉第二案．勞動部針對外國人從事家庭幫庸工作之我國僱主資格．依現行法規定．僅由家戶成員符合．有3名以上之年6歲以下子女．或有4名以上之年12歲以下子女．且其中2名為年6歲以下條件之一．類計點數滿16點者．使得申請招募或承接外國人"},{"start":12416.454,"end":12434.091,"text":"然上述規定並不符合現今國情為減緩家庭壓力原建議勞動部放寬審查標準修正相關規定至家有一名6歲以下輕度或中度罕病兒累計點數16點下修及家中有兩名4歲以下幼兒提案人委員"},{"start":12438.416,"end":12455.515,"text":"第三案經查勞動部新聞稿與媒體相關報導﹐談應雙方於1、2年6月左右即開始洽談直至本國視訊與印度簽署MOU前一日﹐勞動部仍表示簽署相關期程與方式仍在研議中又查自洽談一時﹐"},{"start":12456.796,"end":12480.752,"text":"其間卻未曾有召開政策說明會、公聽會與國人溝通：更未有政策影響評估、社會影響評估、勞動力市場需求與衝擊評估等報告以供參考．原要求勞動部於召開公聽會、三場座談會與政策影響評估報告前．不應盡致適行引進印度移工提案人委員王育敏、廖偉祥、盧憲一第4案"},{"start":12485.155,"end":12503.568,"text":"臺灣外勞失聯後逃逸情形自110年以來成長比例增加近40%失聯移工情形相當嚴重並對臺灣社會與治安形成潛在問題有鑒於移工引進多數透過國內仲介業者後續管理移轉雇主等業務一同"},{"start":12504.068,"end":12526.138,"text":"故未維護合法業者與移工權益．有效自源頭降低逃逸外勞數量．原要求勞動部應針對引進移工失聯率過高之仲介業者．於一定期間內禁止引進移工．並於一個月內沿你預警機制與業者失聯率評估標準．提案人委員王玉敏、廖偉祥、盧憲一．第5案"},{"start":12526.658,"end":12545.531,"text":"有鑑於巴士量表已經超過10年沒有調整其次很多長輩的失能有時候是跟環境相關包括獨居失衣沒有主要照顧者等並非巴士量表可以反映出來的真實情形變成許多實際上有需求的人也會被排除在外原要求勞動部檢討外國人從事就業服務法第46條第1項第8款至第11款工作資格及審查標準放寬被看護者應據條件為"},{"start":12555.658,"end":12562.964,"text":"年齡滿80歲以上．無需經醫療機構所作專業評估．70歲以上經診斷為癌症二期患者．或年齡未滿80歲．經醫療機構以團隊方式所作專業評估．認定有全日照顧需要者．並請勞動部於一個月內將檢討結果回覆．立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會．提案人委員．邱振軍、王育敏、盧憲一宣讀完畢"},{"start":12583.766,"end":12585.288,"text":"請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見?"},{"start":12595.432,"end":12622.91,"text":"報告召委員、各位委員第一案那個我們知道土委員在關心那個印度整個相關的評估那以及未來整個的一個相關的對外的溝通那因為目前因為整個相關的評估其實我們卻會完成相關的評估這部分我們可以提供那另外就是在整個社會的溝通面上其實我們現在已經有一個跟相關的專家諮詢跟跨部會以及未來相關利害關係團體其實會有一個溝通的平台"},{"start":12623.73,"end":12640.492,"text":"至於說這個為後續整個的一個規劃在相關的未來移工引進之後的這個生活相關的翻譯或照顧這個其實都會配套來完成那最後就失聯移工這個我們本來就有同步在整個未來做一個精進所以可能是不是建議委員是不是能夠同意"},{"start":12641.033,"end":12653.258,"text":"因為現在MOU現在的進度就是因為雙方已經完成這個範文那在行政院被查之後可能後續比較重要是在工作層級會議的討論那剛剛大概委員關心的這些議題我們會同步來進行就是相關的評估報告以及相關的一些未來的一個對外的一個溝通跟一個政策諮詢的一個程序"},{"start":12663.883,"end":12691.894,"text":"那這一部分是不是建議在整個程序面上面是不是容許我們就是我們還是照目前的MVP的進度那相關這裡面所提到的評估報告跟我們的一些相關的對話的溝通跟這個利害關係人的一個專家諮詢的討論那這部分我們會再按照委員的指示我們來做一個辦理以上那你這樣講的意思你要修正什麼樣的文字這個案子"},{"start":12692.301,"end":12706.7,"text":"你們的修正文字有跟委員溝通嗎?因為剛剛是有跟土委員這邊溝通我們是建議修正文字是這樣子就是後面1234跟最後一段都建議刪除改成從"},{"start":12710.242,"end":12731.655,"text":"第6行原始建請勞動部．以下是建議修正的文字．召開跨部會及學者專家諮詢會議．及邀請各利害關係團體參與討論．並提供具體評估報告．送本院社會福利及衛生委員會之各委員這是這個建議的修正文字徒惠園可以同意嗎"},{"start":12744.426,"end":12745.987,"text":"委員就要發言．可以上台發言"},{"start":12754.502,"end":12780.002,"text":"好 謝謝主席那針對這個它這個完善的評估報告那有沒有包含我們比較明確的像社會影響評估、勞動市場評估跟政策可行性評估因為一些完善評估我覺得很模糊、懵懂這個我們都納入那可以註明嗎那是不是我們的文字這三個面向這個文字我們在整個的報告裡面我們都會把它納入"},{"start":12781.158,"end":12797.019,"text":"就是明確說至少這三個評估報告一定要做嘛因為你講完善我覺得太模糊了那是不是我們建議文字並提供社會影響評估、勞動市場影響評估及政策可行性評估等完善評估報告"},{"start":12798.356,"end":12813.716,"text":"那說明會的部分呢說明會是這樣因為我們現在已經會建立一個平台有專家政策跟相關的一些代表那這部分我們會來邀請納入我們現在其實已經召開像我們3月1號已經召開第一次會議已經在進行當中"},{"start":12815.538,"end":12832.913,"text":"那你們召集各縣市召開說明會這會有困難嗎?我們是不是建議委員因為目前因為各縣市對這個議題可能還並不是很實質就是說如果未來在討論的時候我們可以找部分的就移工可能需求比較大的縣市有一些代表也參與我們的討論那同意的部分呢?這個就是未來在配套上那個工作層級會議的配套這部分都是會同步來進行"},{"start":12843.493,"end":12860.92,"text":"那因為你們一直說他這個針對英文的部分那是你是引進的部分會特別注明針對英文的部分溝通能力的問題對因為根本因為這個部分還要透過雙邊的工作會議這個還要跟印度方來做一個討論我們會提出我們的需求"},{"start":12864.461,"end":12891.152,"text":"提案不能註明說要求你們在各縣市召開說明會解決各縣市的疑慮跟委員報告因為現在因為這只是一個目前初步目前只是一個合作的一個框架跟意向那後續就是說整個在整個一旦確定在工作會議在討論的過程當中假如有跟各縣市未來在執行上有關這個部分我們後續會在後續再來做一個妥善的一個規劃"},{"start":12892.281,"end":12920.792,"text":"好那就是那個針對報告的部分我們那幾項一定要特別注明那你在召開會議的時候要請各縣市要請各縣市的代表我們會邀請部分比較主要縣市代表來參與好好我們謝謝徒委員好接下來第二案報告委員第二案我們無意見沒有意見好另一位委員"},{"start":12926.98,"end":12951.097,"text":"署長你作為一個勞動部的主管機關你對這個沒有意見讓我們覺得很訝異第一個就是說我們對於開放外籍的家世邦庸到這個台灣本來就有規定現在他是要放寬那我們支持你有輕度、中度、很病兒或者是這個比較需要人家照顧的這一個條件我們是支持的"},{"start":12952.978,"end":12960.167,"text":"但是他後面提案是說家中有兩名4歲以下的幼兒也要放寬這個門檻那以前我們就談過說松阪外籍邦傭聘僱的門檻他恐怕會造成替代結果"},{"start":12969.437,"end":12987.485,"text":"我們知道外籍幫傭、外籍勞工到台灣輸入,我們最擔心的有兩種,一個是補充或者是替代。當然我們大多數的外籍移工都是補充原則,我們都說台灣人不愛做了嘛,那我們就補充進來。但台灣人不愛做,補充進來其實還產生第二個後果。"},{"start":12992.387,"end":12999.834,"text":"就是拉低我們的薪資事實上已經有了而我們就要回頭過來討論所謂的家庭邦庸這個市場會不會產生這個衝擊會不會產生替代那我們知道道府保姆啊他除了協助家事清潔、食物烹飪、終點阿姨他們也是來做居家清潔、料理烹飪、雜務收納或者折騰衣服等等"},{"start":13019.01,"end":13036.797,"text":"這個是家事的部分那育兒家庭呢大部分現在模式是送到外面的托育服務體系如果你降低了這個聘僱外籍幫用的標準他是不是在鼓勵你回歸到家庭由家庭裡面回到家庭那在這種狀況裡面他不但衝擊到這個終點清潔阿姨、終點保母還衝擊到現在的兒照產業的從業人員的工作權"},{"start":13048.501,"end":13061.031,"text":"那現在有2萬8千名保姆他有沒有可能面臨沒有小孩可以帶那兒照產業、托嬰中心、幼兒園更有幾萬的從業人員他們是不是也要失業那我接著要講從孩子的權利育兒的這個專業來看我已經講過了外籍幫傭取代到府服務的保姆或是專業的保姆其實"},{"start":13076.022,"end":13091.085,"text":"免疫育兒的專業 背離了育兒照顧他現在已經在走向專業化和證照化了你不要小看我們的保母喔 也不要小看這一群人即使他們都"},{"start":13092.346,"end":13106.742,"text":"不只是保姆,包括家事、清潔員,他們都是要受訓,要有學分的要求,然後甚至政府要鼓勵這些人培訓以外還要認證制度,我們是走向這樣子專業,要來做育兒,育兒不是跟他家裡吃的飽、阿嬌會睡照顧生活起居,不是!"},{"start":13115.455,"end":13144.219,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面你說你沒你兩名4歲以下的幼兒我認為這個東西不能知識體大你讓這些清潔終點清潔業的人保姆幼兒幼兒園還有這個托嬰中心還有專業化的照顧制度都要走回頭路都要面臨沒工作啊把育兒貶抑的"},{"start":13145.566,"end":13154.96,"text":"非專業化因為那個提案的委員他現在不在所以我們就是先這案就暫緩不處理好謝謝因為有委員有不同意見我們就暫緩不處理"},{"start":13161.48,"end":13182.689,"text":"跟委員報告那第三案王委員大概也提醒那個MOU推動之後可能相關的影響跟評估報告那是不是能夠比照剛剛土委員這個方式因為我們未來這個評估報告一定會提供給各委員那是不是以我們剛剛跟土委員的討論的那個方向這個文字上來做一個調整"},{"start":13184.125,"end":13205.405,"text":"我這邊比較著重是你們要跟社會的溝通你剛剛講的是專家學者但是現在其實民間有一些包括之前他站出來的這些團體你們剛剛說用email跟他們溝通我覺得這個是很不足而且是單向式的email已讀不回然後你們就算了這樣我覺得這件事情真的要成功是讓社會徹底理解就是說你們準備了什麼"},{"start":13206.986,"end":13232.713,"text":"做了什麼那這樣的社會溝通才是成功的所以我建議你們你們應該要比較具體承諾你們大概會去開你要不要開公聽會或是要不要開座談會除了專家學者的會議之外那如果要開可能大概是幾場你如果覺得三場很多那你大概要開幾場我希望是比較明確其實在幫你們因為你社會溝通不做我覺得反而會阻礙你你未來所有工作的進行好不好如果你們可以辦那就就"},{"start":13237.216,"end":13243.608,"text":"就是你就承諾說你們會召開相關的公聽會或座談會就是跟社會進行溝通"},{"start":13247.243,"end":13274.423,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們現在那個諮詢會其實就有類似這個性質因為我們參與者就是除了有那麼廣泛嗎對我們現在打算一些利害關係團體阿包含現在公民團體我們其實會邀請啦我們未來把那個邀請的對象會盡量再更多那你們要提供讓本委員會知道你們邀請了誰而且要打一定比例阿民間團體會打我們會邀請對啊因為剛剛林委員也有問阿邀一個也是一個"},{"start":13276.125,"end":13287.691,"text":"對阿規劃要不然你就要具體規劃送委員會我們會持續監督好不好我們依照召委的指示就是我們在這個諮詢會議我們把相關的要參與者規劃大家也會比較清楚然後你可以規劃然後你這團體在疑慮的是什麼我覺得這樣反而好我也剛才說只有單方的官方"},{"start":13304.261,"end":13333.463,"text":"好,下一次你們要回復委員會,你們大概會召開機場,這樣諮詢會,然後那頻率你們是多久開一次,好不好?你們要怎麼開?對,因為待會,待會還會有諮詢,你們修正完之後再給本席看那這個先,待會再回來看好,來,第4案"},{"start":13341.845,"end":13363.884,"text":"中介管理這個我想這個我們會遵照委員的指示好那就通過好謝謝來第5案第5案因為針對因為高齡針對現行的這個看護移工的這個申請可能因為巴士量可能對部分地區有造成不便其實這個我們跟衛務部都持續在檢討那這個案子我們會遵照委員的指示我們來做檢討跟評估這個案子我們沒有無意見"},{"start":13364.462,"end":13381.708,"text":"好 那第5案也通過那就是剛剛那個第三案的文字修正就是你們待會再提供給本席好 那我們的這個臨時提案都已經全部還沒有完全處理完畢就第三案文字要再提供給本席那接下來我們繼續質詢我們請謝伊鳳委員進行質詢"},{"start":13394.198,"end":13399.102,"text":"關於移工政策的問題其實在我們民間就一直有不同的聲音就是現在"},{"start":13420.198,"end":13445.387,"text":"我在經濟委員會質詢發現我們今年度本來預估我們的經濟是緊縮的那可能就是說我們的製造業會放緩但是現在庫存銷的差不多了可能民間的製造業又開始在加班或者是在幹工那會不會增加我們勞工的需求"},{"start":13446.127,"end":13473.595,"text":"會不會?你們預估呢?你們有相關的預估嗎?當然,如果經濟成長率好的話,當然...你們在院會裡面有做相關的討論嗎?因為今天他們都在上修我們的經濟成長,過去可能都是2點多趴,可能今天都會到了3點多趴,那3點多趴的時候對於勞動力,現在坊間在不同的業別已經有缺工的問題了,是不是?"},{"start":13474.415,"end":13495.322,"text":"是,缺工的問題一直存在對,那如果缺工的問題你們短期內怎麼樣解決?我們其實報告委員除了已經開放業別就是移工的引進以外那另外在本國勞工的部分我們是希望說譬如說我們中高齡高齡者的續留或者這個"},{"start":13497.697,"end":13501.959,"text":"但是你們這種引導的方式有沒有辦法解決這個問題因為其實我們當初也很單純的認為勞動力可以自由的流動嘛"},{"start":13518.268,"end":13529.519,"text":"可是後來發現不同的業別勞動力要自由的流動的確有困難啊就如同在疫情的期間我們發現製造業晃反的時候我們希望他把它導到餐飲業在去年當我們的製造業當我們的那個什麼餐飲業需求量變大的時候我們又希望說說什麼"},{"start":13542.031,"end":13556.189,"text":"其他的業別跑到參議院可是我們發現都沒有辦法就是說讓他們自由的流動啊是不是因為勞工在職業的選擇是自由性的嘛是啊是啊我們要尊重勞工的選擇只要說他有意願"},{"start":13557.47,"end":13577.803,"text":"想要這個流動到跨域的產業,我們也會透過資訊來幫忙。對,可是我們說這個是沒有辦法,這個很難啊,我們沒有辦法說,那所以你怎麼解決缺工的問題未來?缺工,因為,報告委員,缺工問題一直存在啦,那政府的重點就是說我們如果去開發,去開發這些勞動力,包括說很多,像我們台灣其實以那個"},{"start":13583.948,"end":13603.174,"text":"50歲以上的這個勞參率是整個比起韓國日本是降了將近20%那我們會希望把這些還是壯世代的這些勞動力人口能夠希望他們重返職場所以我們最近也推了計畫希望說在三年內我們可以至少在50歲以上這個壯世代能夠增加30萬的人力進來"},{"start":13604.915,"end":13630.39,"text":"好那這個部分就是說我們會看產業的需求那去去調整對於有一些製造業他沒有辦法他如果缺工的問題一直存在很久的情況下那我們本就是本國的勞動力不願意參與的情況下那我們怎麼樣子解決這個缺工的問題他們希望能夠提就是提高或者是把"},{"start":13631.07,"end":13648.947,"text":"就是同一個業別的這個移工的這個現額比例提高那有沒有辦法?那個報告委我們現在就是extra制嘛比如說你原來的合配比例是多少你想要增加可以你就是就案費增加就可以聘到最高可以到40%"},{"start":13651.55,"end":13665.931,"text":"就是你可以加等於說加救安費來提高你的比率那另外還有就是國內承接比如說有些移工他因為原來的業別他可能現在沒有缺那麼多人那他可能是就是"},{"start":13666.611,"end":13670.832,"text":"為什麼沒有辦法讓基層的中小企業主可以了解呢?因為如果是這樣子,你有人家就不知道了啊"},{"start":13690.816,"end":13705.65,"text":"我們都工業區都去辦座談然後各分熟的都發表座談那有一些不在工業區裡面報告委員我覺得很多問題是這樣就是說可能因為我們辦座談有時候不是僱主來啦都是他裡面的職員來那回去有沒有"},{"start":13707.057,"end":13734.849,"text":"如實的來把這些機制讓老闆知道因為包括我自己也去跟僱主座談他們也說我哪都不知道可是我跟他說我們怎麼辦啊就常常說可能來上來開會的人他沒有回去沒有跟僱主提供這些資訊但是沒有問題其實我們勞動部我們的網站各項的就業資訊各項的協助都有我是鼓勵企業主或者你打個1955來你有什麼問題我們都可以專人來幫你服務那我們各地的分署"},{"start":13735.589,"end":13763.916,"text":"各地的分屬我們甚至就是企業有缺工需求我還請同仁去專人去服務客製化的來幫你媒合這個都可以做得到的會不會你在這個委員會講一套那在地方的沒有沒有沒有我跟你說你們根本不是這樣子嘛那我要求你們到我的那個可以可以委員因為我聽到的情況就不是如此嘛我剛在這幾天我光跟中小企業座談就很多很多場"},{"start":13765.356,"end":13779.967,"text":"不過有一個問題就是我剛剛跟你講的部主真的不曉得因為來上課的人回去沒有講所以我只要我親自去講我都要求至少就是一定要總經理、董事長乘起來因為他們才會去瞭解他們關注的問題在哪裡"},{"start":13781.048,"end":13802.557,"text":"他才會知道說原來政府有那麼多措施所以委員如果你可以辦個座談會我可以去講對因為工業區他們現在就是面臨的就是長期就是我如果今天的經濟成長是如此的情況下那未來我們國內有一些產業是本國的勞工不願意去從事的情況下"},{"start":13803.217,"end":13825.741,"text":"那本來我們就應該要讓當然第一個我們是應該用就是我們的智慧的機械來減低我們的這個勞動力的比例嘛然後但是你短期的問題缺工的問題還是要解決嘛你們中間的那些人員是不是應該要不要影響我們的質詢這樣子我們就是質詢沒有效率嘛是不是"},{"start":13827.042,"end":13840.693,"text":"好對啊沒關係這個部分我會把相關的資料給你那有必要我也可以去跟業者座談雙向溝通那我們因為我會交代發展署這邊去"},{"start":13843.315,"end":13869.814,"text":"在您轄區的工業區在辦座談,邀請僱主來好,因為中小企業對於這個相關的法令那如果他們沒有辦法就是說得到進一步的了解的時候那對於我們國內的製造業以及相關的這個經濟成長就沒有辦法增加嘛,是不是?那對於我們地方的發展也會受限啊,好不好?好,謝謝"},{"start":13871.98,"end":13884.648,"text":"好謝謝謝一芬委員的質詢那我們中午就不休息我們繼續委員的質詢接下來請張家俊張家俊張家俊委員不在我們請李燕秀委員進行質詢請部長好請許部長"},{"start":13895.885,"end":13916.503,"text":"部長好,好久不見,回來這個委員會這個位子就非常的熟悉,但是事實上我們平常,雖然我隔了4年才回到立法院,但是平常我們在基層的工會其實我們常碰到,所以就勞工的議題,其實李燕秀一直都長期的關心,我想部長你非常清楚,無論行政補助費,這一次我會繼續回來追,要再與時俱進,現在什麼都在講。"},{"start":13920.826,"end":13942.2,"text":"第二點今天的主要的議題救安基金我想今天時間不夠另外我希望今年省決算的時候我有機會再跟你好好的討論但是整個救安基金的使用其實跟今天的專案報告也非常有關係我們先看一下我今天做的圖表青年就業的問題從你們今天提供的資料其實青年就業的失業率"},{"start":13946.463,"end":13972.094,"text":"其實沒有降低看起來我們整體失業率其實好像有降低但是今年的失業率其實整體來說從110年到112年其實一樣是居高不下那在這一次產業移工跟社福移工的比例的部分我也看到從110年到112年之間我們的產業移工跟我們現在的社福移工比例大概在"},{"start":13972.754,"end":13987.368,"text":"我們現在總共大概75萬左右嘛對不對那有將近50萬左右是產業的移工是產工對然後大概20幾萬是部長我覺得齁現在各行各業很多都缺工我並不認為說"},{"start":13989.17,"end":14000.498,"text":"移工政策不能做討論我覺得可以做討論但是我非常遺憾的是選前包括今天印度移工政策選前你說否認說我們根本沒有談事實上我們有談我只是說還沒簽啊"},{"start":14005.261,"end":14029.391,"text":"這個談的事情連個影子都沒有甚至在官方網站上說沒有這件事情這是假訊息不是不是那是10萬的移工是假訊息一直在談這個所以部長部長我覺得都可以談但是這個政策移工政策就必須好好更認真更深刻的談因為包括其他跨部會的合作"},{"start":14030.211,"end":14051.671,"text":"我們就要思考得非常清楚我們不是說今天大家都喊說我們缺護理人員那我們是不是下個階段我們護理人員也要用移工來做就是說各行各業都缺工但是跨部會對於移工的政策長遠的規劃跟考慮是什麼我覺得就要思考得非常清楚營造業的缺工"},{"start":14052.432,"end":14078.755,"text":"我清楚可能台灣很少人要去做營造業這部分的勞工所以我們需要移工但是如果我們每一個都只要是缺我們就用移工政策來補我覺得勞動部就會變成移民署你就不要叫勞動部外面有人這樣子批評所以我們應該要有一個短中長期的規劃跟思考不是缺什麼我就移工補什麼"},{"start":14079.795,"end":14099.723,"text":"對沒錯你認同我的說法嗎是是部長如果是這樣子的話那我覺得年輕世代對我們來說很重要年輕世代包括現在貧富差距越來越大年輕人對於現在的失落感低薪也非常的心裡也覺得非常的受傷所以這一塊"},{"start":14101.043,"end":14123.432,"text":"長遠來說所以我剛剛提到青年就業的問題失業率的問題我青年失業率是逐年在降這3年我從8.78、8.38降到去年8.01有在降不是說逐年升高這個我數據可以給委員我覺得部長這個平均數去年其實降到金融海嘯以來最低的"},{"start":14124.432,"end":14131.102,"text":"去年只有8.01部長去年113年去年1128.3920到24 11.76部長我今天時間不多我不知道你是不是因為這樣的數據就滿意"},{"start":14140.414,"end":14159.686,"text":"但青年就是說現在很多年輕人也是高薪他低就所以很多年輕人覺得我事實上我可以領更高的薪水但是我為了我怕我領不到我找不到工作做所以我本來可以領3萬的薪水我可能2萬8就去做我領3萬我的薪水我可能3萬就去做所以"},{"start":14160.707,"end":14173.209,"text":"我覺得在媒合的工作上還有包括在各個產業上跨部會的合作很重要你不能說我今天缺護理人員我護理人員下個階段我可能就要用移工政策來去補"},{"start":14175.084,"end":14190.897,"text":"這樣外界就會批評你就乾脆改名叫移民署就好啦所以部長我覺得你今天應該交代更新為什麼我說這個跟救安基金是聯動的如果說我們覺得護理人員很重要譬如我舉一個例子護理人員"},{"start":14191.698,"end":14209.029,"text":"如何讓護理人員願意回到職場生產完之後或者是休息一段時間之後願意回到職場我們救安基金怎麼樣可以做更多的補助跟使用我舉一個例子或者是照護人員或者是托育的保姆政策"},{"start":14209.709,"end":14222.638,"text":"這些可能現在都缺工那缺工我們應該怎麼樣用這些救安基金教育也好後面的津貼長期在一段時間之後長期做更好的補助讓他們願意再回到職場上"},{"start":14224.571,"end":14242.39,"text":"我覺得這個是救安基金短中長期你要不同的做法你才能說服社會大眾我今天我這個移工政策是確實不會衝擊到臺灣的這個勞工我覺得這才有辦法去說服大家否則人家會批評我勞動部變成移民署你同意嗎是"},{"start":14243.351,"end":14244.112,"text":"謝謝主席本席 邀請部長請部長"},{"start":14276.172,"end":14276.272,"text":"楊仁豪"},{"start":14306.833,"end":14320.55,"text":"對於個人認知,你不太可能會講出這樣子的話語。為什麼呢?說實在,我第一個,我先講,我沒有任何歧視的意思。那你腦中沒有歧視,怎麼會有講出這樣子的膚色?"},{"start":14324.395,"end":14350.742,"text":"因為印度移工引進那之前有些社會的疑慮那認為說彼此的適應融合那你講說他的膚色就不會疑慮嗎不是我是說彼此的適應融合的問題其實剛剛會講到這個是就是說當初只是說如何讓大家能夠盡快的促進融合跟適應所以才會有這樣的那個但我也講我也覺得說這個發言真的不是很吐司所以我也表示歉意那之後我也會對這些問題會更加的"},{"start":14353.223,"end":14377.761,"text":"好 這你也表示歉意我也希望他是一個語物啦不是頭腦裡頭的觀念這是絕對不可以那我們實質來討論因為目前我們就是泰國、越南、菲律賓跟印尼四個國家嘛引進外籍移工那這20年來呢我們可以說是首度簽訂第五個移工的來源國所以在這樣的一個這個"},{"start":14381.043,"end":14396.617,"text":"這個情況之下本席要請教在2月16號我們以視訊方式來簽署了嘛簽署了這個MOU嘛那到底我們什麼時候可以引進這個這個印度移工那引進的額度跟他的專長到底是什麼呢"},{"start":14399.059,"end":14404.222,"text":"報告委員我們2月16視訊簽署2月26完整換文那接下來我們會請我們會報行政院來備查劉丞你們做本期要請問的什麼時候可以正式引進這個報告委員這個恐怕還沒那麼快因為我們後面還有工作成績還沒那麼快還沒那麼快沒關係我們還是要照程序走那到底會什麼時候"},{"start":14428.095,"end":14452.022,"text":"有可能會進來?報告委,至少也要半年、一年,為什麼?因為這個工作層級﹖今年底可不可能進來?今年底我不敢預料,就是看後面的﹖為什麼本級會跟你討論這個議題呢?因為大家看到這個訊息,大家缺工,都很期待那你認為今年底不可能,明年可不可能?"},{"start":14452.722,"end":14472.487,"text":"明年是有機會啦明年是有機會也不一定因為就是要看那個工作沒關係我們就實質討論因為有要怎麼處理沒要怎麼處理嘛你不要讓產業一個期待最後是落空的這樣不好嘛所以今年底不太可能明年底有可能但是不知道什麼時候"},{"start":14473.147,"end":14486.139,"text":"是不是這樣解讀﹖可以這麼說﹖可以到底是不是﹖是﹖是這樣解讀﹖那請問﹖你們現在預計可以引進多少移工﹖數額﹖報告委﹖數額還沒預計﹖數額還沒預計﹖那專長有沒有預估﹖專長有沒有預估﹖專長會看各頁的需求﹖"},{"start":14501.692,"end":14513.6,"text":"我們會簽我們已經有自己的期待才有辦法談判嘛那你預估我們希望能夠在明年的時候有可能會引進你希望可以引進多少"},{"start":14514.941,"end":14531.676,"text":"數額上包括原額目前我也要經過大家跟跨部會討論之後那基本上原額我們一開始不會太多啦會小規模但是因為我說多少我現在就是先小額的引進啦小額是多少你這小額是小到多少"},{"start":14532.668,"end":14555.676,"text":"要談,報告委員這個要談,這個不是我自己能夠決定部長你不用緊張,因為我們今天你一定緊張,因為你語射了,因為你要知道,我們要跟人家討論的時候,你跟人家有一個主張,不是你可以決定OK,這大家可以了解,但是你一定要有主張啊,你不可能你自己沒主張啊,我就是工作成績開完,"},{"start":14557.196,"end":14575.45,"text":"我會有,大概了解,我會有確定﹖你主張你的小兒,你竟然可以回答一個小兒,小兒是多少啦?小兒是多少?現在我沒有辦法回覆這個問題﹖那你所謂的小兒的定義是什麼?我的意思是說,就不會是很大量的引進啊﹖你的大量是多少?你的小兒又是多少?"},{"start":14579.637,"end":14593.193,"text":"部長,你還是語射啦,我跟妳說,本期跟您討論,因為這件事都錄音錄影,大家很期待,所以大家期待,那我們也清楚,這個過程"},{"start":14595.195,"end":14614.498,"text":"聽清楚這個過程必須要去談判但是我方也必須要有自己的方案你才有辦法討論對不對你既然說出小兒小兒一定有你的數字當然你不願意說我也尊重你啦但是我要告訴你你工作會議要到什麼時候可以有一個方向出來你的工作會議要到什麼時候可以有一個方向出來工作會議現在沒有召開啊什麼時候要召開"},{"start":14625.697,"end":14630.918,"text":"就看印度方就看他,我們雙邊會去討論要開會的日期你這樣,我們本來期待很高,結果我們很失望沒關係,請你把你預估要怎麼做"},{"start":14644.983,"end":14669.956,"text":"請你詳實資料給本席,你的時間流程表請列出來好不好我再請一個議題給你做功課目前我們逃逸外勞的累計人數已經達到8萬人那請問勞動部你要怎樣防治逃逸的外勞你要怎麼去做,你的研議方案是怎麼樣因為你陸續第5個國家明年有可能會進來"},{"start":14670.996,"end":14687.672,"text":"那你必須也要也要預估我們現在的目前逃逸外勞已經有8萬人這個是顯性數字隱性我看更多對不對對啊就是這些啦就是這麼多啦報告委員我們先是去年的"},{"start":14689.156,"end":14707.648,"text":"討議人數有降下來了因為這幾年主要是疫情移工進不來供需失調所以111年的失聯率特別高5.96你既然了解這個目前的現狀討價的老闆很難過你要怎麼樣去防範請你詳細資料給本席好不好方案出來好不好這兩個議題你詳細資料給本席一個禮拜的之內請將剛才本席所要的資料這兩項給本席"},{"start":14722.739,"end":14740.671,"text":"謝謝謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來我們請吳思耀委員進行質詢好 謝主席有請部長有請部長"},{"start":14744.66,"end":14745.761,"text":"請播放好嗎?可以播放嗎?好"},{"start":14759.25,"end":14777.864,"text":"我想今天我聆聽了幾乎一整個上午其實事實上對於開放印度移工這個政策其實跨黨派的委員其實基本上都是站在支持的角度也許在作業的程序或者是未來精進的方案有提供了很多建設性的建議我們來"},{"start":14779.364,"end":14804.358,"text":"韓納然後來推進但是不管是今天委員的發言或者是這長期以來是在立法院跨黨派立委長期要求我國政府要針對外勞的這個來源國要努力想方設法去增加新的選擇新的選項所以總的來講這個政策方向我可以幾乎這樣說大家都站在Welcome"},{"start":14804.983,"end":14817.566,"text":"的方向跟角度但是呢對於快或慢的這件事情我想如果我們把問題意識定在我今天的主題就是國際搶人大戰的此時此刻臺灣蘇狼摩蘇丁的這一個攸關國家競爭力的問題意識站得住腳的話我想更可以有效的推進我們這個政策大破大立大步的往前走"},{"start":14834.429,"end":14859.631,"text":"就如同剛剛前一位楊瓊英委員她甚至是指叉沒拿著皮鞭叫你快快快對不對所以說印度移工can help確實台灣面臨一個國際搶人荒缺人荒的此時此刻我們就是要快點來走嘛所以這個問題意識如果導到國家競爭力我們不只跟時間賽跑我們更跟世界各國在競爭"},{"start":14861.152,"end":14886.985,"text":"所以我要支持這個政策勇敢去做好下一頁那進入我的主題我可能時間沒有辦法講我其實有十幾頁的PPT但是我想藉這個時間也釐清一下有一些委員在詢問說這個政策是不是急救章感覺聽起來好像是昨天求婚求婚今天就結婚的感覺報告委我們其實有經過三年的"},{"start":14888.446,"end":14903.721,"text":"就我所瞭解跟掌握的資訊這樣一個跟印度的磋商從109年就開始談了談了3年多了所以絕對不是急救章快速的欠缺評估這個您要大聲講啊是"},{"start":14905.382,"end":14926.652,"text":"第二個,我們現在的程序是簽了MOU,它就是一個異項書的簽訂、換文,未來的工作事項正要開始。我不曉得大家有沒有看日劇喔,這個日劇我是日劇迷啊,都會說,請你洪森漢,以結婚為前提,跟我交往好嗎?"},{"start":14929.197,"end":14932.28,"text":"這個意思就是類似MOU就是我們有這個意象以結婚為前提我們來交往但是不是明天就結婚啊交往之後我們的生活習慣我們的價值觀我們的各項"},{"start":14946.411,"end":14964.008,"text":"方方面面 攸關人生大事 都是在這個交往的過程 要去慢慢推銷 也就是我把他用這個例子來換在這個事情 MOU只是just the beginning 雙方有這個意願 我們有以結婚為前提的交往的意願"},{"start":14965.287,"end":14985.88,"text":"太沉重了但是但是未來你們要進行的工作會議而且謝謝各委員也是非常謝謝王玉敏教委今天排了這個專案報告提出了很多建設性的提醒未來擴大在工作會議的過程跟專家學者社福團體所有的stakeholders"},{"start":14986.821,"end":15011.009,"text":"的對話都要積極綿密的展開所以說他沒有急救章他也不是今天MOU明天就上路這個要對社會講清楚我們還有很充裕的時間包括您剛回答楊瓊英委員的今年底你可能都說的保守也許明年比較有可能換言之我們還有一年的準備期可以收攏社會各界更多元的意見"},{"start":15012.449,"end":15038.921,"text":"第二個呢 這個政策的上路有不透明嗎?我們依據就業服務法裡頭只要是政策決定開放就要公告周知所以我們透過公告周知之後把這個政策即將上路就可以來彙聚大家對話的可能所以我認為如果有委員會誤會你們是不透明的政策跟決策我要替你們大聲的講"},{"start":15040.75,"end":15063.446,"text":"並非如此那當然也有委員提案說是不是這個政策到各縣市去開公聽會什麼的其實我翻閱了我們過去開放的其實是6個來源國啦我們的印尼、泰國、越南、菲律賓乃至於蒙古乃至於馬來西亞其實是沒有所謂什麼縣市公聽會的一來國跟國之間的這種涉外的事務本來就不會到縣市去開公聽會嘛"},{"start":15070.431,"end":15086.526,"text":"但是謝謝各委員共同的提案就是未來在這個工作會議在進一步落實的同時我們各個stakeholder大家要去對話這個非常非常的重要好因為我的PPT大概都沒時間講主席您可以坐下一下下嗎"},{"start":15087.947,"end":15098.822,"text":"循序漸進穩健務實好下一頁我講到中好這一頁我想講一下我們要清楚對外界來說明外籍移工的適用法規是一樣嚴格的過去的6個國家如此未來的印度亦然"},{"start":15105.351,"end":15134.531,"text":"開放印度移工並沒有放鬆任何現行的法規我們有7個法規要適用外國人就業管理條例、勞動基準法、外國勞動人力供應管理條例、就業服務法、全民健康保險法社會安全法以及外國工作者保險條例換言之我們是同樣規格在管控這個也要對社會說清楚講明白好下一頁好我就問最後這個題目好了好我回到最後一頁我的那個"},{"start":15137.293,"end":15156.75,"text":"因為我長期加入教育文化委員會我對於印度移工就是低階人力嗎這樣的社會命題我一定要大大的為印度移工撕掉這個不合理涉及歧視的標籤去掉這個汙名化我監督的過去監督的部會其中一個叫做中研院"},{"start":15157.811,"end":15185.35,"text":"中研院就有超過300名的印度博士生在中研院工作我這裡秀出來的是中研院資訊科學研究所的一位印度的研究員他現在其實是一個網紅大家可以去看看他這個影片在台灣工作的1萬名印度人其實遍及台灣頂尖大學、工讀工程學、生物科學領域、碩博士甚至在業界都是最先進的高階人力"},{"start":15186.451,"end":15201.209,"text":"而且呢除了在學研機構在竹科或南港軟體工程的園區擔任工程師的印度精英人士大有人在所以我們臺灣是一個最包容最多元最擁抱"},{"start":15202.21,"end":15207.035,"text":"各國移民尤其是各種來臺灣就業創業的人我們是這樣一個偉大的包容的國家對於任何一個未來可能成為我們國家很重要的人力補給也好專業的協力也好我們都要給予臺灣人應當有的友善"},{"start":15221.73,"end":15241.243,"text":"那謝謝主席給我多的時間因為真的時間很有限我希望這個政策透過更多元的對話啟動更專業的相關當事人的各項的研議的會議我們讓一個好的政策勇敢的上路阿您在社民進程也要大聲說這樣好不好好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長好 謝謝吳斯堯委員接下來我們請洪森漢委員進行質詢"},{"start":15261.624,"end":15264.386,"text":"主席好請許部長好請許部長黃委員好部長那個你先前受訪的時候我講到的這個談話"},{"start":15275.609,"end":15300.954,"text":"當然我們在媒體上面看起來有引起了一些風波但我必須說其實勞動部這幾年在推動職場友善或防治就業歧視的業務上面我自己是給予肯定的所以我自己也希望接下來勞動部的工作裡面可以繼續秉持過去在推動這個防治就業歧視的像這樣子的一個努力當然我也看到部長也道歉了"},{"start":15302.321,"end":15331.062,"text":"那我其實想來跟部長討論的是今天關於印度移工的問題其實我想印度移工的議題從去年大家社會開始爭議之後如果仔細去看很多民間其實提出來的疑慮其實我自己觀察到這些疑慮其實這個輿論的風向其實有一些轉化這個轉化其實從一開始也許大家對特定的人種會有特定的一些看法不同的看法可是我覺得後面的討論其實我感覺其實大家"},{"start":15332.003,"end":15356.49,"text":"比較多針對的反而是臺灣的移工政策的制度根本的制度的問題大家有疑慮的反而是這件事情那現在臺灣社會在引進外籍勞工其實真的跟過去不太一樣我想我知道勞動部這幾年其實在這個政策上面其實遇到很多困難跟挫折其實我覺得有一個很大的原因其實是社會的期待跟過去其實不一樣"},{"start":15358.931,"end":15382.848,"text":"我必須很誠實的說我覺得現在其實有很多關於移工政策最根本的原因其實是我們政府其實承擔的太少這個承擔的太少其實以至於其實有很多引進移工以後後面該擔的責任就落到僱主這一端僱主如果他擔不起他就會把這個責任希望能夠轉嫁給仲介"},{"start":15384.056,"end":15384.436,"text":"主要我在想齁這個"},{"start":15413.972,"end":15424.579,"text":"因為在救福法的規定移工的照顧管理基本上是雇主的責任但我講這個不是說政府就可以免責所以政府應該在如何讓整個"},{"start":15426.585,"end":15447.238,"text":"部長我等一下會跟你討論這個問題但我要說的事情我其實可以舉幾個例子來跟你說其實現在很多僱主跟移工兩方其實都有一些抱怨跟不滿一個地方是我們在移工相關的業務上面的辦理其實行政上面其實是非常非常複雜的部長你有沒有自己親自辦過相關的業務自己親自"},{"start":15448.078,"end":15474.169,"text":"我自己沒有提出申請走過但我是一直要求同仁簡化這個行政的手續不然我跟你說在這方面其實我們看到韓國其實已經全面數位化了其實我們臺灣也有派員去做韓國去做考察但到目前為止我們還是沒有做好這個簡化的流程跟統合數位化的程度還是相當低還有很多工作其實是沒有完成的我們臺灣現在移工的人數70幾萬人對不對75萬人"},{"start":15477.272,"end":15500.402,"text":"這麼多的人數如果我們業務還是用這個龐雜、複雜的方式在進行我們可以想像有多少行政成本必須花在這事情上面所以部長我第一個還是要要求至少就政府可以做的事情上面我們現在到底有多少的文書作業文件的程序其實是有空間可以整合、可以統合、可以簡化的這部分不能順應民眾不管是僱主端或者是移工端的要求嗎?可以嗎?"},{"start":15501.483,"end":15502.083,"text":"第二點我要說部長其實我們現在75萬1"},{"start":15519.497,"end":15544.289,"text":"移工在臺灣其實他遇到各種狀況我知道現在我們的勞發署或者相關各地行政這個地方政府其實有點疲於奔命也沒有辦法來去營運我舉一個例子給你聽這是一個陳情的案件來找我部長你可以看這是他寫給我們的陳情信這個情境是這樣家庭看護工他突然中風了怎麼辦"},{"start":15546.141,"end":15561.302,"text":"我跟大家跟部長說不管是我們的僱主其實真的是無能為力的狀況部長看一下這封澄清信這是僱主寫給我們的僱主的爸爸中風所以他請了一個外籍看護來照顧這個爸爸後來移工中風了"},{"start":15562.29,"end":15581.588,"text":"所以他的仲介就跟僱主說最簡單不用擔責任的方法就是把這個移工丟回去他的母國就好了部長你同不同意這樣做你不同意對不對部長如果你不同意接下來他開始要來請求臺灣的政府相關的協助的時候對不起他求助無門"},{"start":15583.595,"end":15612.179,"text":"他去找地方的社會局地方社會局沒辦法給他幫忙找了勞工局勞工局沒辦法給他幫忙他說我爸爸就是一個中風的人我自己家裡的狀況也不好我要怎麼來去承擔這件事情對不起但是政府沒有給予相關的資源能夠讓他去處理所以我們變成是逼著可能逼著這個僱主你就必須用最廉價最簡單的方法把這移工直接丟回他的母國所以當然台灣可能就會承受在國際上面承受很大的罵名說把移工當作免洗塊"},{"start":15614.5,"end":15628.026,"text":"部長這就是我說的我們的政府對於責任的承擔太少了最後這個案例是我的辦公室一個一個打電話才把這些相關資源能夠串接起來但我們75萬名的移工每個事情都能靠立委辦公室這樣打嗎?部長你覺得呢?這個部分我們再來做一些檢討做一些制度的規劃看怎麼樣對一些"},{"start":15639.229,"end":15668.57,"text":"部長很明顯這些移工在臺灣除了勞動力提供以外他們還是一個人這個人有各種社會性的需求如果我們沒有辦法把這些需求有一個責任擔起來的話只是丟給仲介仲介用最廉價最低成本的方式來處理的話就會衍生很多社會的問題這些社會的問題就會現在讓大家可能看似對印度移工可是其實他不信任的是我們整體的移工制度所以造成的亂象跟憂慮的我覺得很部分的源頭就是來自於這個地方"},{"start":15669.21,"end":15684.364,"text":"所以部長這是我剛剛跟你說政府應該要在這裡面承擔更多的責任不是把責任丟給雇主一層一層的轉嫁下去這樣是沒有解的這樣民眾對於移工制度是不會有信心的遇到大大小小的問題也一樣會求助無門的"},{"start":15686.035,"end":15710.194,"text":"部長這是我希望我要請部長我時間不夠了但我要請部長是不是可以針對這個移工的在除了他勞動以外的社會資源的網絡我覺得我們應該有一個檢討跟規劃我們沒有這些支持的資源沒有支持的中心的時候這種事情一再的發生亂象就是會讓大家很有疑慮衍生這一次大家看到這相關的問題"},{"start":15711.235,"end":15732.074,"text":"大家的不放心就是來自這個地方所以移工的引進的問題其實是一個配套跟管理的問題配套跟管理做不是只是在進來的那一剎那做而已而是移工進到這個社會以後他遇到大大小小的問題我們怎麼支持僱主跟移工來面對這些事情這是希望我們一個支持的網絡我希望部長跟勞發署"},{"start":15733.655,"end":15757.53,"text":"我們兩個月的時間我們把相關的制度該檢討的部分尤其是應該要有一個支持移工跟雇主為支援中心的這樣支持中心的核心的理念去做相關的規劃好不好兩個月的時間不然我們狀況會一再的發生勞動部在移工引進的政策上就會一再的挫折一再的失敗一再的被檢討這不是我們樂意見到的好不好謝謝兩個月謝謝謝謝洪委員"},{"start":15761.345,"end":15763.166,"text":"接下來我們請游浩委員進行諮詢謝謝召會,有請勞動部長許部長好,請部長游永浩"},{"start":15784.852,"end":15809.11,"text":"延續著過去我們的勞工立委吳裕仁委員他對勞工權益的一個關心那我也在這裡也向勞動部針對這次的一個專案我是希望部長就是我們您跟外交部對這件事情道歉但是我希望未來再引進這個印度勞工的話不要對我們國人或是本勞道歉那我想直接跟您就教好了"},{"start":15809.71,"end":15834.401,"text":"就是剛才像楊瓊英委員所提到的小額還目前來講有沒有針對這個數字可以想過之後再做一個回答現在我心理上還沒有確定因為要開過工作成績會議我才能夠得到的答案一直都是工作會議那我再接著就教一下部長目前來講在民進黨執政期間105年到113年移工人數大概增加了多少人"},{"start":15836.052,"end":15861.921,"text":"一百零六到一百一十一百零六到一百一十三年這八年的期間移工增加了多少人大概增加了差不多有十萬有沒有差不多十萬左右我跟你講是十六萬人從五十九萬增加到七十五萬還既增加了十六萬人所以平均每年是增加了兩萬人那我想請教一下那在未來的四年會再增加八萬人嗎"},{"start":15863.798,"end":15888.219,"text":"目前的話就是說缺口啦齁這個產業的缺口那人數會不會增加這麼多當然就是靠到看到時候的狀況看到時候的狀況但是過去的8年增加16這個有增加但是其實委員那個疫情我是降低好沒關係但是總額是增加那所以說在你的小額的部分是有可能會增加逐年會增加到2萬人嗎如果產業有需求的話"},{"start":15889.08,"end":15907.835,"text":"報告委員不是這樣子就是說我們增加一個來源國是給雇主多一個選擇啦好那來源國這個跟那個人數增減沒有什麼太大的關係沒關係這個人數增減過去的8年增加16萬嘛那未來增加多少印度會增加多少現在沒有答案嘛這個增加的就是看我們產業缺工的情況"},{"start":15907.995,"end":15934.929,"text":"好那沒關係那我直接跟您就叫產業缺工因為我禮拜一在質詢工程會的時候因為營建業相關的外勞的補充他們說那時候勞動部是沒有找主委這邊討論過如何國家重大工程要來去做這個補充勞動力的部分那當然本勞跟外勞是存在著競爭關係我們都知道那我想請教一下在這一次的印度勞工進來台灣是要補充的是哪一個類型的勞工"},{"start":15935.709,"end":15960.066,"text":"各個類型都有可能我們以開放的我再講說以開放的類型都有可能營造、製造、農業那我直接就就好了就是說那在長照的部分要不要市長普通回答一下在長照的部分是不是主要會針對印度的勞工來去補充看衛務部他們這邊的盤點人力的需求"},{"start":15964.429,"end":15991.017,"text":"我們基本上就是目前比較需要充實人力的是在我們的住宿型機構那所以現在住宿型機構也配合勞動部這邊已經有修法放寬可以把護理人員都納入那現階段市長其實你們的業務報告全部都看完了那5月的我也看完了那在長照服務法104年5月三讀通過但是這個案子長照服務法則規約在立院擋了10年"},{"start":15992.597,"end":16010.398,"text":"他其實過去民進黨在野的時候他因為怕移工進入長照體系啊其實這個部分是那時候組黨的主要原因啊那我沒關係那目前來講的話移工如果要進入長照體系來去解決這個就是住宿型長照機構不足能力的問題那當然說要有整體規劃那我還是期待"},{"start":16013.021,"end":16032.577,"text":"那如果說在這個部分還是要注重到本勞的權益不然目前來講在勞動部許多指訓的部分針對長照還有許多從學生培養到未來的住宿型的人力那實際上並沒有辦法有效的銜接那再用外勞來去補充的話那其實對於本勞來講尤其是學生來講又是一大衝擊"},{"start":16033.658,"end":16054.067,"text":"那同時在這個日本來講他們在這個所謂的住宿型的這個人力啊長照人力來講他們日本的做的是不錯那所以說他們也不一定要再引用外籍那所以本席還是希望在引進這印度移工的部分啊那不僅是逃逸的部分還是要去做一個檢討因為目前失言勞工是8萬"},{"start":16055.447,"end":16055.927,"text":"來,請許部長"},{"start":16085.401,"end":16109.821,"text":"好有請許部長許部長好直接就教產業我們現在要開放印度的這個移工來引進那產業現在到底缺工的狀況有多少產業的缺工現在都像製造業我們去年有做統計大概整個缺工"},{"start":16111.638,"end":16114.442,"text":"23萬多全體產業全體你現在很簡單嘛你的報告裡面有講說製造業營造業缺工問題嚴重那你的問題嚴重有多嚴重"},{"start":16125.135,"end":16150.069,"text":"銀造業大概目前是2萬銀造業2萬製造業是7.4萬7.4萬銀造業2萬加起來是不是將近10萬對我們現在移工有總共多少人是75萬那其中你講的是說泰國籍6萬多但是你下面也講泰國因為經濟發展有減少移工輸出的趨勢所以我們泰國籍的移工是不是越來越少"},{"start":16151.572,"end":16169.728,"text":"會越來越少嗎?可能他覺得說泰國本地他們經濟也發展起來所以他們可能就回國嗎?對不對?或是說他可能有去其他地方嗎?所以你剛講的缺工有10萬人再加上泰國籍差不多6萬人也減少了所以是不是我們現在缺口至少有16萬人左右?至少10萬人以上"},{"start":16173.892,"end":16183.674,"text":"缺口?缺口大概10萬,我們現在調查的數字是這樣,我們都會滾動的去了解缺工的狀況本席就好奇啊去年"},{"start":16185.239,"end":16208.14,"text":"就有傳言是說勞動部要跟印度簽NOU引進印度的移工當時有講到是說有可能要引進到10萬移工那我們勞動部特地發文說這個是假消息假訊息結果不到兩個月的時間今年的2月就已經簽署了NOU後續還會再完成正式的締約"},{"start":16209.605,"end":16225.105,"text":"那結果我們在看今天部長也證實了確實我們現在缺口就至少10萬以上沒有沒有那你還有什麼沒有你兩分鐘前才說兩件事情沒有關聯啦不是你先聽完我講的話部長本席現在就要問的是我是今年議員"},{"start":16225.646,"end":16247.206,"text":"本席現在要問的是你現在一直口口聲聲講是說我們要開放印度是給僱主多一個選擇對不對那僱主為什麼要多一個選擇就是因為原本的這些管道已經不足以他拿不到這些移工了嗎他沒有辦法引進這些移工了嗎如果說他可以引進這些移工的話你就不存在你所謂的10萬個缺口不是嗎"},{"start":16248.22,"end":16268.092,"text":"報告委員我這麼講齁我們現在顧主他就現有的來源國他可以引進是但是我們這個是一個未雨綢繆的規劃啦齁因為就像剛剛講的這不是未雨綢繆這叫捕獲網部長因為你已經承認了你剛剛已經承認了我們現在缺口是10外"},{"start":16268.772,"end":16285.166,"text":"缺口的10萬那他要用本勞還是用外勞來引進這個都大家來努力啦那為什麼我們現在產業會有缺工10萬嘛這是您統計的本席都用您給的數字來跟您就教所以你現在告訴我是說我們為什麼"},{"start":16286.127,"end":16308.377,"text":"好這樣子為什麼那麼多的委員都會關心是說你現在開放茂蘭開放之後到底要多少你都講說沒有沒有這是NOU人數不知道人數我們會控管放心大家一定會把關好但重點就在於是說當我們就是有那麼多缺口的時候你是不是就要從這個地方要補足這個缺口否則的話我們國內的產業就是需要這些人啊"},{"start":16309.551,"end":16313.035,"text":"MOU是開發新的來源國那你開發新的來源國的用意是什麼就是要補足缺口嗎不是補足那個缺口啦"},{"start":16327.335,"end":16349.349,"text":"MOU是這樣子我新增來源國就是讓僱主未來有多一個選擇然後不會讓我們太過依賴這些已經開放的這四個國家萬一如果哪一天它暫停或者不輸出那我們可能整個移工的來源會出問題那現在我們有掌握到哪一個地方它有可能暫停或不輸出嗎"},{"start":16351.932,"end":16372.103,"text":"目前是正常但是我剛跟委員說齁所以主委你講的你講的狀況根本不存在部長你講的狀況根本不存在就剛剛我講的泰國泰國的營造工已經不太進來了本席現在講的是然後越南的經濟也慢慢上來我們也擔心以後如果他那邊的薪資條件各方面比較好他可能就"},{"start":16372.463,"end":16386.048,"text":"委員長本席現在講的就是說這樣行政部門在一個多月兩個月前去年可以大動作的講是說這個是假訊息結果選完到一個月時間就簽了NOU所以說這根本就是有在談沒有簽但是是不是過完之後一個月就簽了沒有10萬但是你有10萬的缺口"},{"start":16393.53,"end":16421.631,"text":"那個兩位是啦缺口那是主計總署的調查他是1月的調查我怎麼之前就會去這兩個部分是來來來這一件來來來部長您正要這樣講我們就再就教一下這是你今天給的報告3月6號勞動部給的報告你開宗明義第一章是什麼移工需求逐年增加那移工需求逐年增加尤其製造業跟營造業缺工問題嚴重"},{"start":16423.595,"end":16452.814,"text":"那你缺工問題嚴重你自己寫的本席就要問你是說你的依據是什麼憑什麼會寫缺工問題嚴重嘛你嚴重到底是差了多少人所以說你剛剛就講就是10萬人嘛所以這就是根本的問題所在部長本席現在我們花了4分鐘部長本席花了4分鐘講了這些事情但是本席其實最重點是什麼重點是想要提醒你我們到底缺的是勞工還是廉價勞工"},{"start":16453.575,"end":16453.609,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":16455.506,"end":16482.815,"text":"到底我們的是本勞我們都不願意去做那些工作還是業者不願意再出更多的成本所以說要push你們這邊要進要有更多的移工管道因為本席都知道很多的營造業可能也都跟我們講是說現在馬來西亞或是東南亞一些國家他們的營造也起來了所以說甚至有很多東南亞國家他們也可能會選擇去其他的國家去做移工而不是選擇台灣"},{"start":16483.875,"end":16501.906,"text":"就是他們認為是說那邊的這個薪資待遇也不錯所以我們到底是確實勞工還是廉價勞工那我們除了說只是開放有沒有未來再去提升整個勞工的一個待遇環境我最後講一點啦抱歉主席三四秒"},{"start":16503.581,"end":16523.304,"text":"剛臨時提案有提到是說要跟縣市政府這邊來溝通縣市政府有沒有準備好那剛剛有講到是說可能還不一定會做這樣的一個說明會但我想請教我們如果說真的有印度移工進來的話有沒有算過說哪些縣市政府會優先那些移工會比較去那些縣市政府"},{"start":16526.925,"end":16541.122,"text":"這個 這個看到到時候雇主的選擇啊不是啊 我想問的是你其實很簡單你完全可以了解你只要做一個研究你去調查現在營造業跟製造業到底主要的"},{"start":16542.185,"end":16561.921,"text":"公城主要的施工環境在哪邊在哪幾個縣市那就看得出來哪幾個縣市缺工問題嚴重那既然哪幾個縣市缺工問題嚴重未來印度移工可以開放的話一定是那幾個縣市優先會去想要搶印度移工啊所以那幾個縣市是不是就重點應該先說明的地方"},{"start":16563.84,"end":16588.609,"text":"如果說有些縣市他根本沒有那個工作就沒有那個工作需求他即便你開放100個國家他也不會有移工去嘛但是現在有一些縣市比如說新北市他可能重大的工程比較多相對你開放移工之後是不是有可能他的缺工問題嚴重所以他就比較有可能會去找移工進來那是不是新北市政府就應該要列為勞動部優先溝通的對象或是說明的對象這你認同嗎"},{"start":16589.551,"end":16598.514,"text":"可以啦 這個部分我覺得因為我們後續我們後續會跟到底哪個縣市報告委因為目的事業主管機關是在內政部營建署但是勞動部主管的就是這個相關勞動的問題所以這也是為什麼大家會問你嘛不是委員 我們是負責說"},{"start":16612.919,"end":16620.848,"text":"哪些行業要可以引進移工開發新的來源國那產業的缺工問題部長你們不是只是開放了一個之後後續的問題不管是社會問題相關水土不服適應問題或是等等的問題都丟給其他的部會"},{"start":16628.716,"end":16639.505,"text":"所以這是為什麼本席才會講是說甚至你的問題有可能是丟給地方政府所以我們既然不要丟給地方政府是不是就應該勞動部先找地方政府來溝通看到底地方政府準備好或說地方政府說明會他們應該要事先做什麼準備來因應未來有可能進來"},{"start":16650.553,"end":16664.178,"text":"資訊會議報告委員我們資訊會議會邀請那包括我們的後續的工作層級會議各部會我們瞭解缺工狀況比如說如果我們能夠從營建署這邊知道說每個縣市部長最後一句話你什麼時候會開這個說明會資訊會議什麼時候會開三月要開過一次找了哪幾個縣市政府"},{"start":16672.743,"end":16675.004,"text":"在開放印度移工前一定要開這樣可以嗎?可以啊 這沒問題"},{"start":16700.439,"end":16720.46,"text":"開放印度移工進來之前一定要跟縣市政府尤其是重點縣市政府開諮詢會說明會這樣可以這沒問題好謝謝部長好謝謝洪孟楷委員接下來我們請徐欣穎徐欣穎委員不在我們請蔡議委員進行諮詢"},{"start":16728.511,"end":16755.492,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是有請我們勞動部我們許部長好請許部長蔡委員好部長那事實上今天討論的包括印度移工未來是否開放那討論這些事實上就是為了要補足臺灣勞動力不足那臺灣的勞動力不足自然有很多因素那其中包括"},{"start":16758.133,"end":16779.529,"text":"臺灣人的就業的一個選擇也許我們現在漸漸臺灣人都比較排斥於比較屬於3K產業或者是比較勞力密集的那這部分可能需要移工來做一個協助但是我們在基層看到我覺得最主要有一個很關鍵的問題就是臺灣的失聯移工太多"},{"start":16781.064,"end":16805.18,"text":"施連移工很多所以事實上在講印度移工會怎樣我覺得未必主要還是問題出在施連移工那施連移工當然這個是另外部會但是部長你有沒有去思考一個問題就是說你們到底是希望來台灣的外勞人數移工人數越來越多還是希望我們可以有效的補足台灣勞動力不足"},{"start":16808.452,"end":16823.707,"text":"你們的目的是什麼就是補足勞動力我想大家都是這樣的想法那如果在這樣的想法的一個推演之下我感覺就像我今天標題寫的啦你們為什麼不能同意外勞去兼差啦"},{"start":16826.076,"end":16844.968,"text":"為什麼?因為比如說農業缺工,農業缺工是直接性的,他可能幾年他就去購物,他就一購物,幾年沒贏而已,所以你要請所謂的農業團體,除非他是畜牧業,你說農業團體他真的缺工啊,他過去我們世漢的時候,我們很多阿嬤是不是都在台北"},{"start":16849.19,"end":16870.876,"text":"阿台北就是小孩在考柔順嘛阿現在都沒人要考柔順啦所以現在農業在做柔順欸就沒人要考柔順他就需要可是他的問題他的時間點他不是每年嘛那如果我們可以順勢的讓他補足說好讓一些移工他去兼業阿因為移工他的目的來台灣他也是要給錢我錢"},{"start":16873.477,"end":16897.188,"text":"他們來台灣他們對他們說有時候休假不是他們目的他們想在台灣短時間內趕快賺錢然後趕快回到他們自己的國家所以站在不管是人權的一個立場不管是解決我們移工勞動力的問題我們就有效的管理他們去兼業至於可以兼業的範圍可以去兼業的時間你們再訂辦法就好了嘛"},{"start":16898.834,"end":16927.164,"text":"部長這一塊不能去思考一下嗎這個可能要整個再重新再檢討一下因為這個牽涉到修法啦然後基本上當初當初有一些就是一些考量包括僱主還有現業還有包括對現業是一個嘛所以他們監獄也是要符合事件就是說這都可以去設計沒關係就是說我們不用去自我拘束然後一直在這個問題裡面一直在那邊循環沒辦法解決問題"},{"start":16928.644,"end":16949.401,"text":"事實上有很多的缺工對不對他真的就是低時間的他有一點像是他外勞去賺外快的概念可是你這一塊如果解決了你就解決了有很部分的一部分的缺工問題當然不是專報啦這個因為我們現在是單一雇主啦就是要雇主同意阿阿你現在來對這就是要雇主同意包括職責責任"},{"start":16950.922,"end":16972.175,"text":"這些勞基法都有整套的就是說好實在認定到底怎樣算是工作場所的一個轉換我覺得都做勞基法有規定只是他沒辦法把這一套法令我們都一直害怕把它放在移工上會不會產生問題事實上這個你們都有辦法你們只要把辦法定出來然後落實管理那又解決一塊問題"},{"start":16973.436,"end":16999.457,"text":"而且這塊的問題對於農業有扎實的幫助．比現在推動外展．比現在你做特定的農業．然後他們去合作社．然後去大家去撬開．我撬一個位阿寧．我就撬一個位．結果我看起來我問很多地方就撬不出來．解決農業移工後來就做一個．就只能解決在那個．那個畜牧業因為幾年幾年沒贏的．剩下的就是很難"},{"start":17001.896,"end":17004.921,"text":"我們與其再去想開放還不是去想有效的解決辦法"},{"start":17006.953,"end":17035.86,"text":"這補充 我覺得你可以好 我再請業務單位這邊然後我第二個這個是我們也比較基層有時候說我們營造業我們有開放但是我們有要求他們有一個他們承攬工程的金額上限這個金額我不知道怎麼算但是如果以我們嘉義縣來說我們一年超過兩億甚至一億以上的公共工程是沒有那麼多的"},{"start":17037.576,"end":17040.063,"text":"沒那麼多叫沒那麼多我也變成說這一套我們這樣開放"},{"start":17042.995,"end":17044.036,"text":"我認為這個移工這部分"},{"start":17069.516,"end":17071.817,"text":"主席有請部長好請許部長"},{"start":17099.845,"end":17120.774,"text":"羅文好部長在有關於開放印尼移工的這個問題上印度移工這個問題上那實際上外界很關心的就是說我們過去的失聯的這個移工的狀況我想請問你在政府的努力之下我們的失聯移工的狀況有改善嗎"},{"start":17121.869,"end":17137.585,"text":"報告委員在疫情前其實已經有降低可是疫情之後因為整個供需失調因為邊境管制移工進不來我們在111年的時候這個整個失聯率飆升到5.96所以那一年失聯人數有4.1萬我來問您數字好了2013年1月我們的失聯移工總數是多少"},{"start":17146.311,"end":17151.935,"text":"2013喔對2023年1月2023我跟你講啦80643人那2024年1月是多少一年以後多少我告訴你是85947人所以嚴格來講失聯移工的問題是越來越嚴重你光這一年的差別你就增加了5304人"},{"start":17176.139,"end":17195.355,"text":"因為他進來的人數多啦我們應該看失聯率好沒關係我也知道單一期間來講你可能會有意見那我要講從蔡英文政府上來之後就是2016年5月上台至今失聯移工的人數一共增加多少人你知道嗎"},{"start":17198.794,"end":17200.055,"text":"2016年5月是51733人2024年1月是85947人"},{"start":17207.372,"end":17232.546,"text":"所以總共增加了34214人私聯移工在這8年增加的數字是1.66倍所以外界為什麼今天對於所謂的我們的印度移工今天的問題會跟私聯移工有那麼大的一個關切關切就是對政府我們的私聯移工的政策的處理的狀況沒有信心嘛"},{"start":17233.599,"end":17257.227,"text":"報告委員這應該這麼說啦我想印度引進新的來源國跟這個失聯的這是兩個議題你怎麼會算是兩個議題呢事實上你源頭是移工進來我們當然不反對移工進來啦可是問題是如果政府今天效能不夠你倒下水龍頭我們今天一個水盆需要水在裡面"},{"start":17257.847,"end":17278.025,"text":"你水龍頭一直開但是你一直漏水啊移工一直進來但是你一直在失聯移工一直在增加我剛剛在講說因為主要是三年的疫情導致供需失調所以我們現在已經慢慢的有一些措施希望能夠把這個失聯率降低數字看起來你就是增加1.66倍啊所以我是要勉勵你"},{"start":17279.588,"end":17301.664,"text":"你要開放移工可以但是呢你的失聯移工做得讓大家這麼沒有信心我只是覺得你進來以後你是不是如果政府效能不夠你會讓失聯移工的問題更嚴重啊這才是我們今天關切的問題當然我也覺得說今天我們不要去歧視任何的國籍種族的移工那所以此"},{"start":17302.745,"end":17329.338,"text":"但是失聯移工所引發的問題這個部分就本身還是要解決．是 這個我們一定要來面對那接下來你覺得你們已經做好萬全的準備來去開放印度的移工嗎報告委員 我們現在MOU是雙方有這個合作的意向我講一點 我只要講一點問您準備要充足啦那請問部長 印度最主要使用哪兩個語言"},{"start":17332.813,"end":17355.168,"text":"你看你也不知道印地語跟英語啦那憲法當中他們有多少語言憲法規定的附表的語言有多少有22種那我想請問部長報告裡說臺灣能包圓多元文化那我想請問你已經準備好包容印度的多元語言了嗎"},{"start":17356.794,"end":17384.522,"text":"報告委員我們現在初期我舉個例子這最現實你知道司法院特約通譯名冊裡面有涵蓋到任何一位印度語言的通譯嗎我告訴你雖然分類裡有印地語跟烏爾都語但是目前都查無通譯我只舉一個例子進來以後簽一法動全身希望我們的部長能夠做好萬全準備協調部會做好萬全準備以上"},{"start":17386.636,"end":17392.861,"text":"好 我們謝謝羅志強委員的質詢接下來我們請陳穎委員進行質詢謝謝主席 我們請那個發展署蔡署長好 來 蔡署長委員好"},{"start":17411.858,"end":17423.586,"text":"署長好我們今天就這個引進印度籍勞工衛生出來的這個外籍勞工管理的問題我想我們再繼續請教那首先呢就是這個10萬名的這個數量的問題"},{"start":17427.749,"end":17442.989,"text":"當這個媒體報導要引進印度籍的勞工的時候呢第一時間就有提到10萬名這個數字那一開始也沒有看到你們有任何的駁斥那所以這件事情才會一直發酵起來嘛"},{"start":17444.946,"end":17466.209,"text":"那事實上本期觀察到的這個新聞回應其實我算了一下它是隔了4天之後你們才確認即將引進這個印度籍勞工而且上面根本就沒有10萬名的這個數字那也不是說一次就10萬名而是說逐步引進嘛"},{"start":17467.53,"end":17492.987,"text":"那也因此造成我們許多民眾的討論跟關注那我們來看一下這個簡報民國100年1月外籍勞工的人數就有38萬多了那最多的是印尼籍的勞工有將近16萬那到了今年的1月外籍勞工的人數已經高達75萬多人而且超過10萬人"},{"start":17495.548,"end":17522.859,"text":"10萬人數是有的超過10萬人的大概有菲律賓、越南還有這個印尼所以有關印度籍的勞工的新聞為什麼說到這個10萬名10萬名這個數字到底是怎麼來的是你們自己發布的嗎那如果不是的話你搖頭嗎不是啊是怎麼來的我很好奇啊大家都很好奇"},{"start":17524.543,"end":17551.372,"text":"跟委員報告因為其實我們跟印度在洽商因為MOU它只是一個框架裡面其實完全沒有提到未來要引進多少甚至它MOU其實有一條就是未來要引進的人數其實完全是由我們在決定那在當初去年底其實我們也有一點有一點大概對這樣的訊息發生有這樣的一個情形大概發現可能是有一些是不是有一些在新媒體上面有一些這種錯誤的一個傳播"},{"start":17553.192,"end":17569.991,"text":"所以初步的傳播還是你們裡面有人耗大喜功就自己看到然後覺得說新開發了這個新的國家然後就耗大喜功趕快公佈了這樣的一個訊息你要不要去查一下"},{"start":17570.972,"end":17590.991,"text":"絕對沒有因為事實上這個當初在討論過程其實我們一開始也是非常慎重完全也沒有對外做任何的一些相關的一些資訊我想今天提出這個問題也是讓你再次的說明啦所以也希望你們未來反應要快一點像這種簡單就可以說明的問題你還拖了四天啊"},{"start":17594.875,"end":17612.692,"text":"來再來就是第二個問題就是這個逃逸的這個快速增加牽扯出這個印度籍勞工不當的這個刻板印象那問題的這個本質其實還是回到這個2022年單一年度逃逸外籍勞工的這個大幅增加我們看一下這個簡報的數字"},{"start":17616.635,"end":17641.097,"text":"2022年的1月還在5萬多到了12月的時候就突破了8萬人那我們再看一下這個簡報因為本期長期都在未還委員會那過去我們這個逃逸的人數大概都維持在5萬多那但是到今年其實已經高達了這個8萬6千人了那其實在過去"},{"start":17641.918,"end":17645.301,"text":"我還記得那個時候的移民署的署長也就是這個前台北市警局的這個邱鋒光署長他那時候績效比現在好很多"},{"start":17666.362,"end":17671.296,"text":"因此我們實際的逃逸人數絕對不是我們現在看到的這個數字"},{"start":17673.983,"end":17694.436,"text":"我們應該要把每年逃逸的人數把它累積起來那不管後來有沒有被查獲才是我們應該重視的數據那假設我們10年前每年逃逸25000人你算一下10年下來就是25萬人我們都不是這樣這個統計數據都不是這樣子算給我們看但是我們應該要這樣算那另外"},{"start":17701.465,"end":17716.018,"text":"我們在那我就問你啦好最近5年我們每年逃逸的人次是怎麼樣署長你能不能說明那5年來實際累計逃逸了到底又有多少的這個"},{"start":17717.119,"end":17743.114,"text":"外籍勞工跟委員報告齁其實我們每一年這個逃役本來在疫情前就正如委員剛剛講其實都非常穩定就是在一個我們在一個管控的範圍內那主要是發生會來人數會跟現況會比較之下會偏高是疫情期間尤其在111年他那一年是特別飆高齁整個人數阿這個當然跟整個供需市場的影響"},{"start":17743.254,"end":17757.047,"text":"所以因為疫情讓人數飆高還是因為疫情我們為了要這個控制疫情我們有一些有一些宣導有一些誘因請大家出來自首"},{"start":17758.883,"end":17779.83,"text":"就是在疫情期間就是發生失聯的人數比較偏高就發生偏高那剛剛大概委員提到那個最近5年大概平均大概一年大概2萬多所以5年下來大概最近這5年大概是3萬是3萬人那查緝其實我們透過移民署的協助也查獲了10萬7千多人"},{"start":17780.73,"end":17793.419,"text":"你很誠實的累計講到13萬這個數據跟我統計的也是差不多所以我是給你肯定一下你有誠實其實13萬到15萬都有可能那因為最近我有注意到這個幾則新聞因為跟這個"},{"start":17796.961,"end":17825.481,"text":"外籍勞工的逃逸的原因有關就是有提到這個經濟因素勞動條件那還有雇主不當的對待以及這個疫情的邊境的管制都有相關但是你有沒有想過它一整個它是一個系統性的問題而且它每一個單一的這個原因那對其他的原因它整個加起來連貫起來它都有一個加成的加成的這個效果"},{"start":17826.53,"end":17830.994,"text":"每年在回顧當年我們在審查救福法52條取消3年出國儀式的條文"},{"start":17845.506,"end":17866.481,"text":"當時你們勞動部信誓旦旦的保證說這個逃逸的這個外籍勞工的人數將會減少結果事實恰恰相反那這件事情到底誰要負責難道是當時的我們緬懷的這個郭芳玉部長嗎他可以為這件事負責嗎"},{"start":17869.599,"end":17895.517,"text":"阿如果就是說我只知道說好如果本來我出國打拼那每三年可以回家團聚一次顧主提供假期跟這個機票給我那對於安定我的這個工作我的這個內心跟這個鼓勵其實就是一個很重要的一個支持嘛那但是就是說現在說就算"},{"start":17897.571,"end":17903.367,"text":"他們三年好回去母國休假之後呢他違約不回來了"},{"start":17904.309,"end":17928.516,"text":"那不回來他也不會留在台灣阿那也不會產生說更多的就是之後的這個社會問題嘛那我們台灣政府也不用再花更多的人力還有經費去處理我們國內這個外籍勞工逃逸的問題嘛所以這個就是之前這個修法前修法後的一個很大的差異提供給你參考阿謝謝委員"},{"start":17929.296,"end":17953.128,"text":"最後我要提的是安置的問題救福法的地方主管機關明明就是地方政府我們的兒童、婦女一般如果受到家暴的時候也都是透過地方政府的設政單位來安置為什麼我們的外籍勞工的安置不能補助地方政府來辦理"},{"start":17954.409,"end":17975.721,"text":"然後我想就是說這個地方政府如果接到通報那他們不就可以及時來安置了嗎那而且他們也可以同時進行必要的這個處理而且也沒有說沒有這個動機或者誘因為了說是不是怎麼樣然後來多收這個安置費而鼓勵勞資雙方來對立"},{"start":17979.163,"end":17981.724,"text":"發展署支持由地方政府機關來負責安置工作?"},{"start":17997.65,"end":18022.61,"text":"這一點我們非常認同因為地方政府其實安置會比較方便就是就地安置盡量避免發生因為沒有安置地點而造成跨縣市這樣的移動那我想我對你有很深的期待看你來怎麼樣改變這個很畸形的現象那所以今天的質詢我們主要就是說這個針對印度外籍勞工引進將來可能會發生的問題先做一個提醒"},{"start":18023.391,"end":18052.339,"text":"也期許說勞動部未來對於這個新聞的回應可以快速掌握核心的問題那同時可以加強這個逃逸的控管然後還有剛剛很重要的提醒改進這個安置衍生的問題謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝陳英委員的質詢接下來我們請核心城核心城核心城委員不在王宏威王宏威王宏威委員不在鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才委員不在"},{"start":18053.36,"end":18078.575,"text":"陳冠廷陳冠廷陳冠廷委員不在王美惠王美惠王美惠委員不在徐巧欣徐巧欣徐巧欣委員不在鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在林楚英林楚英林楚英委員不在本日會議詢答全部結束委員王宏威所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":18083.68,"end":18100.891,"text":"好那剛剛有一個靈體這個本席提出來的靈體文字修正這個已經通過就是已經送給那個議事人員那就按修正的文字通過本席也已經有連署好那就是"},{"start":18101.96,"end":18119.868,"text":"第三案通過現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定本次會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"149445","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149445","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f1e6aff7d057ac03452d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a6093032237ac699db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"14:10:02 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base，所以它現在有很多……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會不會成真？"],["王部長國材：有，它現在3月很多就是包機開始飛了。原來14個航點，在今年會到13是嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有哪些航點？沖繩？還有哪裡？"],["王部長國材：如果包括包機，這兩個月會到13個航點。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個是包機嘛！"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，定期航點的話，就有河內、胡志明、港澳，還有南京、峴港，然後後續星宇也會……現在先用包機飛日本高松，大概它現在已經在申請定期航線了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候可以開始？"],["何局長淑萍：預計在下半年應該可以轉定期，那其他的……"],["王部長國材：包機轉定期。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：剛開始先包機嗎？"],["王部長國材：然後再定期。"],["何局長淑萍：對，3月。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那包機要什麼時候開始？這個月開始？"],["何局長淑萍：3月。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：3月份開始？"],["王部長國材：這個月開始。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：然後下半年就改為定航？"],["何局長淑萍：對，然後……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那其他呢？"],["何局長淑萍：其他的就是星宇也會開澳門的航線，然後再包含……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為中部地區，我們去考察的時候，我們大家都知道這個是最好的點，我們也希望中進中出，帶動地方的繁榮，而且它是迫切需要。尤其峴港，那個還是不夠啦！因為需求度太大啊！"],["何局長淑萍：其他還有一些仁川、釜山、濟州等等，還有很多包機。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那個是包機，不是定航。"],["何局長淑萍：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你把包機跟定航詳細資料給本席。"],["何局長淑萍：資料給委員。"],["王部長國材：再給委員，好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來，本席再跟你討論一個議題，也就是兒童的安全。我們知道2018年開始，你說因為周邊的學校附近限速在30公里。2022年到2023年你們有提了一個校園周邊交通安全的改善計畫，到目前為止，本席瞭解是收了100來個案子，大概是六成左右。但是我們最近也發現兒童在路上被撞，很難過！因為兒童是大家的寶貝，尤其一個家庭發生了這個事情，真的是整個家庭就亂掉。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要跟你討論的也就是說，針對於校園周邊人行空間改善，你們雖然有一個參考指引，但是到目前為止，有了錢，現在所收的案子大概只有六成，但是明明白白我們的社會上面還是有這些問題。要怎麼樣去加強來執行之呢？在學校的附近我們既然就已經有限速是30，那你要怎麼樣去落實？請教部長。"],["王部長國材：第一個，校園周邊在過去兩年做，因為有的學校要做大改變的確有它的困難，事實上這個也是地方往上申請的。跟委員報告，接下來我們由今年開始有改善人行設施的計畫，它是4年400億元。今年各縣市政府已經總共799處，這個也要做類似一些改善，也有一些是校園……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你有升級版，表示這個問題的重要性……"],["王部長國材：要繼續做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是你第一期只有六成……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你要警惕，要怎麼樣去落實？我最後給你一個數字，12歲以下的兒童因為交通傷亡的有4.8萬人，更有112名的孩童就當神仙了，我們很難過。"],["主席：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以換句話說，你從2023年，比起前4年，它是不減反增。那在這樣的一個情況之下，每日平均傷亡的從26人到32人，所以它是增加的。本席具體要求，你這個方案必須要去落實……"],["主席：好，好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼樣去宣導、怎麼樣去落實，才能夠保障我們兒童的安全啊？尤其在校園的周邊啊！好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝楊委員，我們時間已經超過兩分鐘，時間已經超過了。"],["王部長國材：一句話，就是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他最後一句話，你說……"],["王部長國材：地方也要申請啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，所以你們要去場勘，好不好？"],["王部長國材：我們是地方來申請……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，一起加油好不好？謝謝"],["主席：好，再請部長把交通部相關的資料回復楊委員，謝謝。楊委員發言完畢。","現在請鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","廖先翔","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","游顥","萬美玲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","高金素梅","王鴻薇","李柏毅","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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不忍苛責就是說我們趕快怎麼樣增加兩個議題第一個到金門的航線一味難求我們可以再怎麼樣去增加"},{"start":209.012,"end":227.331,"text":"至少你也小飛機改大飛機現在有少部分是小飛機改大飛機但是我們的容納量還是不夠還是不夠那這第一個第二個我們的國際航線你們預計最近可以給我們什麼捷報呢請做說明"},{"start":229.416,"end":234.742,"text":"國際航線也都非常滿但是我們也要請航空公司包括華信他們是盡量往這方面來走那現在的你在把那個調整的"},{"start":248.8,"end":253.503,"text":"國際航線部門現在因為那個新宇他現在想要以這裏為home base所以他現在有很多 有他現在商業很多就是包機開始飛了 現在應該是原來14個航點在今年會到13是吧"},{"start":269.957,"end":270.619,"text":"有哪些行點?沖繩、還有哪裡?對"},{"start":282.015,"end":298.826,"text":"定期航線的話就有河內胡志明港澳還有這個南京線港然後後續那個新宇他也會現在先用包機飛高松日本高松那大概他現在已經在申請定期航線了什麼時候可以開始預計在下半年應該可以轉定期"},{"start":299.506,"end":300.388,"text":"新宇、飛也會開澳門的航線"},{"start":317.45,"end":337.215,"text":"中部地區我們去會館的時候考察我們大家都知道這個是最好的點我們也希望中進中出帶動地方的繁榮而且他是迫切需要尤其你的縣港那個還是不夠啦需求度太大其他還有一些仁川、釜山、冀州等等還有很多包機"},{"start":338.055,"end":354.772,"text":"你把那個是包機不是定行你把包機跟定行來詳細資料給本席來本席再跟你討論一個議題也就是兒童的安全我們知道呢2018年開始你說因為周邊的學校附近部長那麼我們線數是這個30線在30公里"},{"start":359.777,"end":379.093,"text":"2022年到2023年你們有提了一個校園周邊交通安全的改善計畫那到目前為止本席了解是收了一百來個案子那大概是大概六成左右但是我們最近也發現兒童被撞在這個路上很難過"},{"start":380.094,"end":400.168,"text":"因為兒童是大家的寶貝尤其一個家庭發生了這個事情這個是真的是整個家庭就亂掉所以本席要跟你討論的也就是說針對於校園周邊人行空間改善你們雖然有一個參考指引但是呢到目前為止有了錢"},{"start":401.289,"end":401.429,"text":"請交部長"},{"start":421.341,"end":446.322,"text":"第一個,校園周邊在過去兩年做的確因為學校做大改變有它的困難事實上這個也是地方網上申請的然後我們現在接下來我們從今年開始有改善人形設施的計畫它是4年400億那今年已經各縣市政府總共799"},{"start":449.705,"end":465.377,"text":"七九九處這個也要做類似一些改善那也有一些是类似像你說的部長你有升級版表示這個問題的重要性但是你第一期只有六成那所以你要警惕要怎麼樣去落實因為我最後給你一個數字"},{"start":466.778,"end":479.884,"text":"一就是這個12歲以下的兒童呢因為交通傷亡的有4.8萬人那更在112名的這個孩童就當神仙了我們很難過所以換句話說你從2023年跟"},{"start":483.166,"end":501.476,"text":"議員．"},{"start":501.576,"end":514.145,"text":"怎麼樣去宣導怎麼樣去落實才能夠保障我們兒童的安全啊尤其在校園的周邊啊好不好謝謝楊委員我們時間已經超過兩分鐘時間已經超過兩分鐘一地方也要申請啦當然所以你們要去請喔好不好好一起加油好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149444","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149444","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172ffd9493146ab5be5252d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a6ab3cf16057514ebe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"13:53:25 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董事長都愁庸了 對不對 桃園副市長 然後跑去當董事長 然後做的亂七八糟最後離開 不是這樣子嗎 還要繼續塞人"},{"start":258.387,"end":258.567,"text":"另外請教部長"},{"start":286.892,"end":297.779,"text":"昨天我們工程會的主委他提到我們桃園機場第三航站的預算要再修正到1300億元"},{"start":301.061,"end":323.079,"text":"這個是在我們第二次修正計畫從原來最早746.89億一路向上修正到956.8億元這是第二次修正計畫現在又要修正主要提高到1300億我想請問一下我們的修正計畫定案了嗎?送行政院了嗎?確定了嗎?"},{"start":326.472,"end":328.474,"text":"現在要進入第三次修正計畫是嗎?"},{"start":347.396,"end":362.488,"text":"目前我們第三次修正計畫公司這邊已經草擬出來所以現在還沒有報布然後昨天公共工程委員會的主委就說要提高到1300億元那是怎麼樣呢?先斬後奏嗎?還沒有報布然後公共工程委員會就對外說了所以部長就要認賬囉認賬然後就要送到立法院立法院就給你認賬再繼續追加嗎?"},{"start":377.697,"end":378.397,"text":"預計什麼時候會報佈?什麼時候會送院?"},{"start":406.392,"end":431.72,"text":"這個要經過部裡面審查：然後照說一月裡面：最後應該還是會經過公共城委員會的審查：所以後面還有一些程序看起來公共城委員會主委都幫你宣布啦另外請教你這第三次修正計畫除了總經費大幅提高比原來幾乎是翻倍成長之外請問一下在相關的年限完工的時間會不會再修正我們是不是還要遲遲的等是"},{"start":434.827,"end":447.444,"text":"目前我們還是以115年第三行下完工為目標現在目前還是這樣以那個為目標對就是他還沒有講出說有時程修正的事所以讓我們總經理來補充說明一下"},{"start":448.409,"end":464.405,"text":"跟委員報告我們第三行下的相關工程都已經完成發包那目前我們跟廠商的工程契約是到115年的12月左右是完工的期限所以不是全部都發包了嗎那為什麼還要再漲這麼多呢"},{"start":466.367,"end":493.737,"text":"價格為什麼還要再增加都已經發包了嗎對因為發包的話我們在當時我們的發包裡面我們在契約裡面都有物價指數條款那因為如果物條變動太大那廠商如果沒有這個機制可能廠商連做都做不下去所以基本上這個部分是等於讓廠商所以意思是說頭洗下去了現在就受制於廠商不然說我不跟你做下去了又不知道延到民國幾年好啦因為時間的有限"},{"start":496.158,"end":510.209,"text":"所以我先只確定說你預計下個月是下個月要報布是吧還是這個月這個月這個月中會報布那到時候我再跟你們要資料知道整個第三次修正計畫的全貌謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149443","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149443","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172feee9f8c0ebbf1b2a52d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a643b8e70d39bd81cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"13:46:20 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13:53:18","影片長度":"00:06:58","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":418,"end_time":"2024-03-06T13:53:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T13:46:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1209,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（13時46分）謝謝召委，請王部長和觀光署周署長。"],["主席：請王部長、周署長。"],["高金委員素梅：2022年7月20日交通部發布露營場管理要點，我們原本以為既有露營場的合法化工作就會順利展開，可是一年半過去，露營場合法化的問題卻成為所有部落族人的惡夢。我們來看一下，根據觀光署的統計，目前全臺灣露營場總共1,845處，其中1,667處並不合法。根據本席了解，目前申請案件總共是800件，但是既有場家的部分只有307件，另外493件都是新增的露營場。而我們整合起來800件的申請案，部長知道有幾家通過嗎？"],["王部長國材：現在……"],["高金委員素梅：好，不要浪費本席的時間，只有1家。"],["周署長永暉：因為還在輔導。"],["高金委員素梅：而且這一家是新設立的露營場，不是既有的。當初我們制定露營場合法化要點，最重要的就是輔導既有的業者合法，可是您看看本席的數據，一年半過去了，既有業者不只申請意願非常低，到現在也沒有任何一家通過，所以我們做這件事情是枉然的。我們族人的惡夢是什麼呢？因為露營場不可以設立在19項環境敏感區，其中有一項叫做土石流潛勢溪流的範圍。","部長，土石流產生的要件是什麼？我們都知道是土砂、坡度大，還要有水。農業部公布土石流潛勢溪流的範圍是防災用的，對不對？它主要是在做風險潛勢分級，劃出可能會影響到的範圍，主要是為了防災工作。本席要請教部長，颱風警戒發布的時候，你會去露營嗎？不會吧！露營業者敢收這些客人嗎？也不會吧！","根據水保署公告的土石流潛勢溪流，你知道全臺有多少嗎？有1,732條，範圍包括風景區、休閒農業區、學校、寺廟、派出所，就連參山國家風景區的獅山遊客中心，也位於土石流潛勢溪流範圍之內，所以這些地方並沒有禁限建，可是根據非都市土地使用管制規則第六條附表一的規定，我們的露營場卻不可以位於土石流潛勢溪流的範圍內，請問一下，我們的禁限依據為何？這是毫無根據的嘛。","結果造成我們族人一個很大的困擾，是什麼？這是已經發生的事情，我們現在的住家位於土石流潛勢溪流範圍，同時也在經營露營場，結果現在卻被縣市政府，因為所謂的開放露營場，而被開罰了，這顯然是不合理，也不合法的規定，我們的族人真的是啞口無言。是不是應該協助他們救濟？這是本席今天的問題。","第二點，本席要再建議部長，針對19項環境敏感區不可以設立露營場的規定，本席希望一週內你們能通知國土署，一起檢討修正非都市土地使用管制規則第六條附表一的規定。部長同意嗎？"],["王部長國材：是，的確我們希望……現在露營活動很普遍……"],["高金委員素梅：對，這是既有的。"],["王部長國材：尤其在山地也非常普遍。但是您剛才談到，現在最大的問題的確是19項環境敏感地區限制了他們合法化，這部分是不是請……"],["高金委員素梅：不用他回答，本席剛才就說了，請部長在一週內邀請相關單位開會，包括營建署的國土署，好不好？"],["王部長國材：我們和國土署，還有……"],["周署長永暉：農業部。"],["高金委員素梅：周署長，本席還沒有請你回答，抱歉，現在本席是在和部長對話，謝謝。","同時還要輔導露營場，交通部應該可以分階段辦理。你應該也清楚，5月1日縣市國土計畫就要公告實施，其中一個很重要的部分，就是原住民族部落只要是105年5月1日前的既有住宅，未來都會合法，同時土地會變更為建地，對不對？原住民的土地也會同步制定原住民族土地管制規則，進行建管的工作。","因為我們很多族人的露營場都是用自宅做為管理基地，屬於無痕露營區，就像這個照片一樣，像這種僅有住宅和浴廁的露營場，本席覺得交通部應該立刻和原民會成立輔導平台，優先協助處理這個部分。所以本席今天三個總結是，第一個，要協助族人救濟，現在要被開罰的人，怎麼協助他們？第二個，依照露營場樣態分階段輔導，並且要優先輔導無痕露營區。第三個，交通部和原民會必須成立一個合作平台，輔導原住民經營的露營場。可不可以？"],["王部長國材：例如剛才提到的原民會，我們看能不能在下禮拜開會討論。的確，現在輔導工作遇到一些困境，尤其是原住民區，他們也希望趕快合法經營，我們會儘量協助。"],["高金委員素梅：對，先針對既有的部分，不要這個法一實施，就是處罰這些既有的業者。"],["王部長國材：了解。"],["高金委員素梅：現在我們的族人哀鴻遍野。部長，你今天的回應非常好，本席要對你比讚，包括觀光署、國土署或原民會，希望你們召開這個討論的會議時，也讓本席知道。"],["王部長國材：好的。"],["高金委員素梅：因為我們需要把現在原住民地區的樣態讓相關單位都清楚，本席跑了全臺灣所有的原鄉地區，我非常清楚知道他們的困境在哪裡。可以嗎？"],["王部長國材：好，我們會通知委員辦公室。"],["高金委員素梅：好的，謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["主席：高金委員發言完畢。","現在請王委員鴻薇發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","廖先翔","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","游顥","萬美玲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","高金素梅","王鴻薇","李柏毅","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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董事長都愁腰了欸 對不對 桃園副市長 然後跑去當董事長 然後做的亂七八糟最後離開 不是這樣子嗎 還要繼續塞人"},{"start":256.374,"end":256.554,"text":"另外請教部長"},{"start":284.878,"end":295.782,"text":"昨天我們工程會的主委他提到我們桃園機場第三航站的預算要再修正到1300億元"},{"start":299.047,"end":322.281,"text":"這個是在我們第二次修正計畫從原來最早746.89億一路向上修正到956.8億元這是第二次修正計畫現在又要修正所要提高到1300億我想請問一下我們的修正計畫定案了嗎?送行政院了嗎?確定了嗎?"},{"start":324.476,"end":326.458,"text":"現在要進入第三次修正計畫是嗎?"},{"start":345.399,"end":373.542,"text":"目前我們第三次修正計畫公司這邊已經草擬出來所以現在還沒有報布然後昨天公共工程委員會的主委就說要提告到1300億元那是怎麼樣呢先斬後奏嗎還沒有報布然後公共工程委員會就對外說了所以部長就要認賬了認賬了然後就要送到立法院立法院就給你認賬再繼續追加嗎"},{"start":375.823,"end":382.268,"text":"預計什麼時候會報佈?什麼時候會送院?我們預計在下個禮拜最遲到在月中過後有沒有就會報佈報佈然後送院什麼時候要追加呢?預計什麼時候追加?"},{"start":404.379,"end":429.704,"text":"這個要經過部裡面審查：然後到所營業裡面最後應該還是會經過公共城委員會的審查：所以後面還有一些程序看起來公共城委員會主委都幫你宣布啦另外請教你這第三次修正計畫除了總經費大幅提高比原來幾乎是翻倍成長之外請問一下在相關的年限完工的時間會不會再修正我們是不是還要遲遲的等是"},{"start":432.81,"end":445.45,"text":"目前我們還是以115年第三個下完工為目標現在目前還是這樣以那個為目標對就是他還沒有講出說有時程修正的事所以讓我們總經理來補充說明一下"},{"start":446.392,"end":462.388,"text":"跟委員報告我們第三行下的相關工程都已經完成發包那目前我們跟廠商的工程契約是到115年的12月左右是完工的期限所以不是全部都發包了嗎那為什麼還要再漲這麼多呢"},{"start":464.37,"end":492.367,"text":"價格為什麼還要再增加都已經發包了嗎對因為發包的話我們在當時我們的發包裡面我們在契約裡面都有物價指數條款那因為如果物條變動太大那廠商如果沒有這個機制可能廠商連做都做不下去所以基本上這個部分是等於讓廠商所以意思是說頭洗下去了現在就受制於廠商不然說我不跟你做下去了又不知道延到民國幾年好啦因為時間的有限"},{"start":494.168,"end":508.473,"text":"所以我先只確定說你預計下個月是下個月要報布是吧還是這個月這個月這個月中會報布那到時候我再跟你們要資料知道整個第三次修正計畫整個全貌好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149441","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149441","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fc752e0a77993e0ba52d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a6b75eef7241a86e735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"13:46:17 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13:53:20","影片長度":"00:07:03","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":423,"end_time":"2024-03-06T13:53:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T13:46:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1209,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（13時46分）謝謝召委，請王部長和觀光署周署長。"],["主席：請王部長、周署長。"],["高金委員素梅：2022年7月20日交通部發布露營場管理要點，我們原本以為既有露營場的合法化工作就會順利展開，可是一年半過去，露營場合法化的問題卻成為所有部落族人的惡夢。我們來看一下，根據觀光署的統計，目前全臺灣露營場總共1,845處，其中1,667處並不合法。根據本席了解，目前申請案件總共是800件，但是既有場家的部分只有307件，另外493件都是新增的露營場。而我們整合起來800件的申請案，部長知道有幾家通過嗎？"],["王部長國材：現在……"],["高金委員素梅：好，不要浪費本席的時間，只有1家。"],["周署長永暉：因為還在輔導。"],["高金委員素梅：而且這一家是新設立的露營場，不是既有的。當初我們制定露營場合法化要點，最重要的就是輔導既有的業者合法，可是您看看本席的數據，一年半過去了，既有業者不只申請意願非常低，到現在也沒有任何一家通過，所以我們做這件事情是枉然的。我們族人的惡夢是什麼呢？因為露營場不可以設立在19項環境敏感區，其中有一項叫做土石流潛勢溪流的範圍。","部長，土石流產生的要件是什麼？我們都知道是土砂、坡度大，還要有水。農業部公布土石流潛勢溪流的範圍是防災用的，對不對？它主要是在做風險潛勢分級，劃出可能會影響到的範圍，主要是為了防災工作。本席要請教部長，颱風警戒發布的時候，你會去露營嗎？不會吧！露營業者敢收這些客人嗎？也不會吧！","根據水保署公告的土石流潛勢溪流，你知道全臺有多少嗎？有1,732條，範圍包括風景區、休閒農業區、學校、寺廟、派出所，就連參山國家風景區的獅山遊客中心，也位於土石流潛勢溪流範圍之內，所以這些地方並沒有禁限建，可是根據非都市土地使用管制規則第六條附表一的規定，我們的露營場卻不可以位於土石流潛勢溪流的範圍內，請問一下，我們的禁限依據為何？這是毫無根據的嘛。","結果造成我們族人一個很大的困擾，是什麼？這是已經發生的事情，我們現在的住家位於土石流潛勢溪流範圍，同時也在經營露營場，結果現在卻被縣市政府，因為所謂的開放露營場，而被開罰了，這顯然是不合理，也不合法的規定，我們的族人真的是啞口無言。是不是應該協助他們救濟？這是本席今天的問題。","第二點，本席要再建議部長，針對19項環境敏感區不可以設立露營場的規定，本席希望一週內你們能通知國土署，一起檢討修正非都市土地使用管制規則第六條附表一的規定。部長同意嗎？"],["王部長國材：是，的確我們希望……現在露營活動很普遍……"],["高金委員素梅：對，這是既有的。"],["王部長國材：尤其在山地也非常普遍。但是您剛才談到，現在最大的問題的確是19項環境敏感地區限制了他們合法化，這部分是不是請……"],["高金委員素梅：不用他回答，本席剛才就說了，請部長在一週內邀請相關單位開會，包括營建署的國土署，好不好？"],["王部長國材：我們和國土署，還有……"],["周署長永暉：農業部。"],["高金委員素梅：周署長，本席還沒有請你回答，抱歉，現在本席是在和部長對話，謝謝。","同時還要輔導露營場，交通部應該可以分階段辦理。你應該也清楚，5月1日縣市國土計畫就要公告實施，其中一個很重要的部分，就是原住民族部落只要是105年5月1日前的既有住宅，未來都會合法，同時土地會變更為建地，對不對？原住民的土地也會同步制定原住民族土地管制規則，進行建管的工作。","因為我們很多族人的露營場都是用自宅做為管理基地，屬於無痕露營區，就像這個照片一樣，像這種僅有住宅和浴廁的露營場，本席覺得交通部應該立刻和原民會成立輔導平台，優先協助處理這個部分。所以本席今天三個總結是，第一個，要協助族人救濟，現在要被開罰的人，怎麼協助他們？第二個，依照露營場樣態分階段輔導，並且要優先輔導無痕露營區。第三個，交通部和原民會必須成立一個合作平台，輔導原住民經營的露營場。可不可以？"],["王部長國材：例如剛才提到的原民會，我們看能不能在下禮拜開會討論。的確，現在輔導工作遇到一些困境，尤其是原住民區，他們也希望趕快合法經營，我們會儘量協助。"],["高金委員素梅：對，先針對既有的部分，不要這個法一實施，就是處罰這些既有的業者。"],["王部長國材：了解。"],["高金委員素梅：現在我們的族人哀鴻遍野。部長，你今天的回應非常好，本席要對你比讚，包括觀光署、國土署或原民會，希望你們召開這個討論的會議時，也讓本席知道。"],["王部長國材：好的。"],["高金委員素梅：因為我們需要把現在原住民地區的樣態讓相關單位都清楚，本席跑了全臺灣所有的原鄉地區，我非常清楚知道他們的困境在哪裡。可以嗎？"],["王部長國材：好，我們會通知委員辦公室。"],["高金委員素梅：好的，謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["主席：高金委員發言完畢。","現在請王委員鴻薇發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","廖先翔","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","游顥","萬美玲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","高金素梅","王鴻薇","李柏毅","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 這個交通部長有請 謝謝請王部長你好你好來 慢慢來 沒關係"},{"start":34.222,"end":61.838,"text":"部長辛苦了大家都關心交通的議題本期當然也是不例外所以今天來提出交通部的一些相關的政策的意見希望跟部長做一些探討我們先從個案開始說起部長這個1200是好政策很多選區的選民我們桃園是通勤的重鎮往返雙北的人數的數量是非常多那1200上任之後其實大家覺得說這個看到了政府在改善交通問題的誠意"},{"start":62.899,"end":81.893,"text":"但是我們不希望這樣子的一個政策為德不足有了大額的票價補貼之後你相關的配套措施要跟著上來1200上路之後大家重新開始期待用國道客運去替代私家車來做北逃的通勤但是上路之後"},{"start":83.655,"end":104.429,"text":"國道客運的營運狀況卻非常的糟糕這個我舉一個例子比如說南崁的5203A過去由長榮的客運來做營運那其實他去年他就已經說要退場了大家商量他待死延死最後延到今年的2月那2月底之後我們就再進一步去要求後面的配套措施那也跟部裡面做了溝通跟商量"},{"start":105.91,"end":130.903,"text":"講說國光、亞通還有後來有多一家義姐會來接手嘛對不對我們本來很期待我們也很願意相信交通部跟公路局解決這個問題的能力我們很高興的跟鄉親宣布說這個帶死的狀況暫時可以緩解大家的燃眉之急可是這個現實總是很骨感因為3月1號開始馬上出現說好的48班直接變成38班而且離峰不是離峰更正昏峰從"},{"start":132.324,"end":156.079,"text":"台北回來的時候6點40一班下一班進來是8點40這個是完全沒有辦法輸運這個雙北跟南侃之間通勤的人流那我們辦公室在處理這個個案的時候要求提出說明那速度其實是有一點慢的我要提醒部長這一部分要上緊發條然後我們也要求如果你真的基於班次調度一些困難的話你總要預先跟人民做溝通吧"},{"start":156.579,"end":173.576,"text":"你不能說你很辛苦我知道你很辛苦可是人民如果沒有辦法第一時間知道政策的這個變化或者是執行的疏漏的時候那就會出現民怨嘛要不是我們辦公室當初去安排然後要求你當天早上去跟那些排隊的通勤族說明這個民怨會更大"},{"start":174.076,"end":188.344,"text":"那我們不希望接下來會一直在處理這樣的事情請部理上緊發條那不只是5203A的問題5203A的問題今天開始看起來是恢復正常48班到位這一點是至少有一點改善可是問題是5203A完了之後換5250A5250B出現狀況啦開始拖班啦"},{"start":193.306,"end":221.645,"text":"為什麼脫班呢後來也是問了一大圈問了半天才知道啊原來這個什麼司機離職啊其實也都是老問題欸你不能說這個地方的問題處理完了下個地方火又燒起來不能一直在處理個案的問題啦而且不只是往返於南侃往返桃園也一樣比如說9005、9023其實都是大排長龍很多人在用可是業者也都興趣缺缺那有些這個班制的調度也不是很精準比如說這個9005的回程"},{"start":223.686,"end":239.997,"text":"市府轉運站發車下一站就是港前差一站而已可是在港前的桃園鄉親回家排隊等最久那天寒流不到10度在寒風中等兩個半小時才能上車這個其實是車班調度有更細膩可以改善的地方"},{"start":241.697,"end":263.782,"text":"9023、9025在去的時候也一樣住在桃園經國轉運站我住轉運站旁邊捏卻因為離發車中心太遠首站變末站結果住轉運站最近的人竟然上不了車凡此種種都表示我們國道客運在桃園的這個執行細節有非常多可以修改的地方這些個案我希望交通部趕快解決部長可以提出解決方案嗎"},{"start":264.502,"end":288.402,"text":"我做一個原則的那個就基本上第一個不中斷這是最基本的基本不中斷一定要的嗎那的確在國道客運他因為有這個後來來接手待死不穩定這個現象我這個也有事實上我跟這個局長談過很多次這個是因為他窮盡這個力量去把這個保持這樣的服務品質"},{"start":289.463,"end":304.376,"text":"那剛才談的這幾個個案的問題我是不是請那個局長回答一下我時間有些很盡快好不好是 個案跟同案 個案的部分的話就是說如果說他的這個公司的班制或是車輛駕駛的這個部分因為有些部分或許我們找其他的公司或是遊覽車也來協助啦"},{"start":305.717,"end":332.324,"text":"我現在意思就是這樣如果說有班次接不上路線可以調整我們就調整有一些班次比如說9005有一些可以從港前發我覺得這是可以思考的有一些可以從京國轉運站發其實就可以解決調度班次的問題那班次不足的部分比如說5250A如果他繼續拖班那就找其他業者一起來經營我覺得也都OK好不好這些東西我剛剛提到我們會後討論好不好通案我們也有處理通案的話就是說增加價值"},{"start":333.224,"end":355.732,"text":"通案問題三個方向 這個任期應該會討論這件事 討論蠻久的從個案看通案 如果通案的問題沒有解決 那個案的問題將層出不窮通案的問題三個 我相信也是老生常談 第一個叫營運困境我們17年沒有檢討運價票價 18項成本固定在那個地方 那什麼時候會有第一次的調整 請部長回答"},{"start":356.277,"end":383.073,"text":"那個你就票價的部分嗎?票價他現在已經提出來全聯會提了嘛什麼時候審過大家很關心這個事啦全聯會在我們公路局這邊已經審了給他意見他修正回來了那我們這邊會報交通部對啊報部那所以我問部長大概什麼時候會什麼時候會調整完因為這個關乎客運業者會不會願不願意回頭進場那個公路局送上來我們盡快盡快來核准有沒有具體的時間表一個月兩個月或什麼樣可以嗎"},{"start":386.055,"end":402.233,"text":"因為競速啦,因為他還沒送到我這邊齁,啊我們內部也有一個審查的程序齁沒關係,現在請公路局會後再來跟我做報告,跟我確認時間表齁第二個,司機缺員的問題啊當然你們有提出一些相關的計畫但從前年開始,前年喔,到今年的1月目標4800,只來了1414,達成率不到30%"},{"start":405.777,"end":420.409,"text":"那表示這個計畫還有可以精進跟修改的地方另外也表示不只是薪資的問題客運業者的營運上班的工作環境是不好的能不能針對工作環境的優化跟改善去修改部分的規則這個我也希望交通部做一個通盤檢討可以嗎"},{"start":422.19,"end":440.858,"text":"這個一樣請公路局會後做報告第三個我要提一個概念我們為了要讓路線調度的更順暢這個也不只是限於國道客運市區公車也需要公車的駐車場站但這個駐車場站現在切身未明現在都市計畫裡面它到底是屬於什麼樣的用地我希望交通部跟內政部做一個會商"},{"start":441.578,"end":441.698,"text":"謝謝主席 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這個事的確有...這裡面當然有很大的行政的瑕疵嘛對旅客的這個權利啊 踐踏到這種程度啊 全國民眾都非常的不滿對政府啊 對交通部的威信啊 造成很大的衝擊 那我先請教你們認為原因是什麼"},{"start":187.554,"end":202.462,"text":"第一個當然就是我們後來檢討就是發布非常公告應該在3個月前就發布然後你們只公布了11天那另外就是說在航管的部分就是說各國飛機到我們的飛航情報區"},{"start":203.763,"end":204.463,"text":"部長有多少旅客受到影響?"},{"start":237.689,"end":247.963,"text":"總共有大概500班左右的是包委員大概有500班左右的這個航班有受到影響那相關的旅客有沒有賠償的問題你們有做這樣的規劃嗎是否賠償"},{"start":251.79,"end":281.15,"text":"跟委員報告因為剛剛所提到的我們在規劃的過程是從去年11月就開始那這個討論呢其實是包含航空公司、航管等有關部門都大家一起來討論所以我們是在今年的1月下旬確定這個執行的日期是在3月份的第一個這個你們1月2月都有討論嘛然後到2月21才發布這個飛航的公告嘛"},{"start":282.357,"end":308.992,"text":"是跟委員報告我們的日期是會決定在線因為這樣的解釋民眾不會接受我認為部長跟桃居公司的董事長總經理應該在這裡公開的向所有的旅客跟國人公開的道歉來部長說明一下我真的對於3月3日當天造成民眾的不便我在這裡表示非常"},{"start":311.192,"end":335.119,"text":"抱歉,我想說這部分3月3日發生以後我要就請我們的次長進駐然後也做了標準作為程序的討論我想這一次事實上過去他都有稅休那的確是這一次稅休的範圍比較廣所以時間比較長但是我覺得這個尤其現在已經恢復到全世界疫情後的恢復航班的情形我是覺得這個部分"},{"start":336.179,"end":364.91,"text":"已經有檢討過那我想我會請他們完全按照我們這個所檢討這個流程來處理部長我不客氣的講你督導不周我在這邊要更嚴厲的告訴機場公司的董事長跟總經理如果再有這種混亂的狀況你們兩個都必須要下台必須要負起相關的責任旅客的權利必須要用心去維護你們讓旅客在機場等待"},{"start":366.155,"end":367.436,"text":"接下來我要問高鐵公司"},{"start":396.058,"end":416.939,"text":"高鐵公司我們現在真的是在假日的時候一票難求尤其是以年假我們以2019跟2023的中秋的年假以它的平均日的運量來看2023比2019的中秋的日平均運量"},{"start":418.359,"end":435.729,"text":"每一天就大概多出2萬人左右 這個運量提升非常的大當然我們在2023的中秋及雙十年假 高鐵公司也全力要去做好運輸的工作我們有30組列車全部的出動 34組的列車全部出動"},{"start":439.651,"end":449.218,"text":"然後單日的班次也排到最高192班次但是部長跟董事長我們還是有旅客等車要等3個小時以上"},{"start":450.942,"end":476.874,"text":"這就是說我們相關的這些班次還必須要更有效的去做調整當然34組都已經動用全部都動用我們的新車12組要到2026的下半年才會到對不對董事長是的然後我們到2026車到要2027經過測試等等可能就要一年要到2027才能夠正式的營運"},{"start":478.496,"end":503.221,"text":"沒有錯那我們現在高鐵真的是一票難取尤其是假日的時候啦高鐵還沒有通車的時候我就在交通委員會那有多次你們都說高鐵公司要調整票價等等我就清楚的說明高鐵公司的問題是運量不是票價那現在運量逐漸的這樣的一個提升"},{"start":504.246,"end":512.451,"text":"那我先請教我們在之前有跟董事長跟總經理有討論我們高鐵的班次"},{"start":513.752,"end":537.165,"text":"在考量車輛的安全維修以及員工的工作權利等等是否還有再增加班次的這個空間尤其是7月7月馬上相關的假期就要到了來請董事長說明一下我們目前每週的班次是1060班那當然在3月份的"},{"start":539.587,"end":541.008,"text":"大概能增加多少班?"},{"start":561.67,"end":589.642,"text":"大約大約40班次好 董事長高鐵公司在運量的提升這方面有做出成績但是我還是認為增加班次是一個必然的趨勢但是一定要考量相關的車輛維護鐵道的保養以及相關員工的工時權利等等都要做好全部的一個規劃這個一定會這樣 謝謝好 那接下來"},{"start":590.7,"end":612.611,"text":"我要針對無照駕駛的部分來請教我們的部長部長我們交通部在駕駛人的這個教育跟監理方面的確是有做相關的一個規劃但是我們忽略了駕照有很多被吊銷、吊扣之後"},{"start":614.042,"end":633.997,"text":"沒有去考照 不願去考照 仍然無照駕駛這些有多少人呢 你知道嗎 有14萬人部長 這5年來無照駕駛的累犯 他的裁判的人數跟件數人數以今年來說 以2023年去年來說 達到14萬5318人"},{"start":640.61,"end":641.53,"text":"是,跟委員報告"},{"start":669.54,"end":691.021,"text":"因為無照駕駛我想我們大概可以分成三類第一類就是說比較年長的年長的就是說他有可能就是他可能因為之前也有就是說他可能沒辦法考上駕照那對於年長的需求的部分其實我們現在正在就是說在各村林裡坐這一個幸福巴士幸福小黃讓他們不用去騎車"},{"start":692.262,"end":719.301,"text":"那就是說而且彈性預約用公車票價可以達到計程車的服務這是一類第二類就是年幼18歲以下的18歲以下本來現在就是說依法令規定就是不能考駕照那如果說無照的部分的話其實這邊包括就是說列管以及就是講習其實講習的時候還要求就家長要共同來那賦予就是說家長也要這個督促這個年幼18歲以下的"},{"start":719.921,"end":748.525,"text":"第3類其實就是在這個18歲以上其實他是因為這一個違規那重大的違規會被吊銷、吊扣、駕照那這個部分因為重大違規的處罰本來就應該就是說他有一個期間他比如說是3年、6年或是更長的你期間不能考照那這一個部分的話我想在這一類的這個部分的話未來我們其實監理機關跟這個當地的警察機關我想在"},{"start":748.865,"end":777.858,"text":"謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149438","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149438","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f9c482468da4f020752d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a60c047472bec184315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"14:49:42 - 14:56:12","影片長度":"00:06:30","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":390,"end_time":"2024-03-06T14:56:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T14:49:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1609,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（14時49分）有請我們的交通部部長。"],["主席：請交通部王部長說明。"],["王部長國材：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長，臺灣在少子化的年代，我覺得當孩子越生越少的時候，一個孩子都不能少，也因為這樣我一直長期很關心我們的兒少。所以今天要來談一個問題，部長這幾天應該看到很多令人難過的消息，上個禮拜無照駕駛，導致彰化三名國小孩童受到傷害，這幾天又出現了桃園無照駕駛遭酒駕撞擊死亡，一個17歲的孩子就這樣離開我們了。","我們辦公室在搜尋網路的時候，光這兩個禮拜以來，就已經將近有5起無照駕駛的事故上新聞，上新聞大概都是嚴重，沒上新聞的不知道又有多少。所以從彰化三姐弟被無照駕駛者撞傷後，我很好奇臺灣無照駕駛的狀況到底有多嚴重，所以我請辦公室的同仁，找出過去這5年來的案件死傷人數，也就是違規事故造成所有當事人死亡。事實上針對一名交通事故死亡的民眾，社會成本推估大概是1,600萬元，受傷的話是118萬元，我們就來看酒駕造成的整個成本，事實上是184億元。","也就是說，如果是酒駕的話是我們的5倍，我們長期以來一直很重視酒駕，可是為什麼無照駕駛這件事情反而沒有處理，放任我們的未成年或成年人無照駕駛，一直都是用這樣的狀態來使用交通工具。請問部長，目前我們國內無照駕駛的罰則是什麼？"],["王部長國材：罰多少錢我再請司長回答，我覺得無照駕駛有幾個問題，剛才看到彰化這個是高齡的部分，另外有一些是高中生。我想無照駕駛所造成的傷害的確非常嚴重，我個人是覺得當然執法面一定要做，另外一個是老人駕照的管理，因為過去我們的確在75歲換照有一個通融期、以上不處理等等的課題。另外就是高中生在教育單位裡面的要求，這個部分我們會持續重視這個課題，因為最近很多嚴重的車禍事件……"],["林委員月琴：因為這幾天剛好都是無照駕駛的問題，而且剛剛算這樣的成本，已經跟酒駕相差5倍之多。我們再跟國際比較的話，日、美、新加坡等國無照駕駛違規的成本非常的高，除了罰款這項跟臺灣還蠻相近的，可是他們的罰款也比我們高。他們還有一些刑法上處罰，甚至新加坡跟美國都有扣車的規定，還有連帶處罰等一些相關的措施。","事實上，日本在十多年前也曾討論過無照的問題，當時他們的眾議院一致認為相關的會議紀錄跟後續的修法都顯示這兩者的死亡狀態事實上是一樣的。甚至無照駕駛還更為嚴重，所以他們把罰則整個都拉平了，結果可以看到，違規的案件量也在修法之後下降，降幅達30%。","請問部長，你目前有沒有掌握國內無照跟酒駕事故的死亡率，知道這兩者有差異嗎？既然兩者成本上有這麼大的差異，不知道對於這一塊……"],["王部長國材：我初步感覺應該是酒駕會比較高，但是我沒有這個數據。"],["林委員月琴：我真的要請部長好好的去關注，我們現在推算出來無照駕駛跟酒駕受傷和死亡的量體，如果橫比的話，他們相差有5倍之多。我認為無照駕駛真的要去關注，尤其是未成年無照駕駛，可以看到不管是汽車跟機車，在我們標準化的傷亡率，無照駕駛都高出酒駕非常多。這是我跟交通部索資的相關裁罰數據，針對無照駕駛，的確你的取締量逐年上升，修法後罰金也增加到兩萬四千元，可是效果不大，我們有落實連帶處罰這些規定嗎？看起來沒有。像移置保管車輛數我們查不到資料，吊扣牌照跟駕照的部分可以看到數據都偏低，像110年大概就只有0.8個無照駕駛，其車輛所有人會被連帶處罰。我剛剛提過，日本或其他國家做了很多措施，可是我們似乎做的不夠多，國內的臺灣酒駕防制社會關懷協會就表示，扣車是最有效的，可是我們剛剛可以看到比例上並不高。所以本席主張，請正視無照駕駛違規的風險，是不是可以比照酒駕修法，增加無照的違規成本，並明定移扣車和連帶處罰，還有加強無照駕駛的教育，謝謝。"],["王部長國材：好，謝謝。"],["主席：林委員發言完畢。","請呂玉玲委員、呂玉玲委員、呂玉玲委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","請王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請陳俊宇委員、陳俊宇委員、陳俊宇委員不在。","請賴瑞隆委員、賴瑞隆委員、賴瑞隆委員不在。","請馬文君委員、馬文君委員、馬文君委員不在。","請莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員不在。","請傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員不在。","請劉建國委員、劉建國委員、劉建國委員不在。","請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員不在。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢。作以下決定：","報告及詢答完畢。委員陳秀寳、蘇清泉、王鴻薇、劉建國、陳俊宇所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請交通部儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","廖先翔","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","游顥","萬美玲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","高金素梅","王鴻薇","李柏毅","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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扣車是最有效的可是我們扣車剛剛可以看到那個比例上並不高在下一頁所以在這邊"},{"start":370.202,"end":387.528,"text":"本席的主張就是請正式無照駕駛違規的風險因為他比酒駕修法更增加無照的那個違規成本是不是可以比照所以明定我們的以扣車和連帶處罰還有加強無照駕駛的那個教育以上謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149437","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149437","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f8d995d9dc8d24af852d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a6cd073220c318363b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"14:42:36 - 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對不對軍無戏言、官無戏言、部長無戏言啊 對不對就相信你啦結果才3個月業者開始染客你現在跟我講說6月1號你要進團相信你的都是笨蛋"},{"start":210.359,"end":229.211,"text":"相信你的旅行業者都是笨蛋你不要跟我講他們未來部長你不會不知道旅行社運作的狀況吧他們要開始籌備整個包括下行銷、下聯繫、下據點、下預算三個月只是組團吶"},{"start":232.113,"end":259.289,"text":"前期溝通跟籌備工作不只3個月吧所以我告訴你你選前政策開支票選後政策翻臉你教大家可以如何適從呢?部長我在請教您齁疫情之前對啊暫時啦暫時啦我知道你今天有講什麼善意表現部長我告訴你你講的話沒人相信的兩個原因你知道為什麼嗎?"},{"start":260.848,"end":274.134,"text":"已經騙了一次嘛人可以被騙第一次可以被騙第二次嗎我都過去一陣子相信你已經跟我騙他一次更重要的是部長你現在承諾有任何意義嗎"},{"start":276.397,"end":285.209,"text":"有意義嗎?你520之後是你嗎?你連賴清德你都不重視、不尊重!也不跟他商量、不跟他報告!6月1日以後!6月1日!我問你嘛!我問你嘛!我問你嘛!"},{"start":294.547,"end":311.5,"text":"這個看他的賽意表現絕併要不要開團你有跟賴清德總統當選商量過嗎我已經講過很多次齁你有跟賴清德總統當選商量過嗎不是我現在沒有嘛我的老闆是院長沒有嘛總統啊我們一般的程序沒有在跟副總統報告這件事那未來總統是誰啊"},{"start":313.121,"end":322.568,"text":"所以你的善意表現就可以開團也是你空口白話啊因為你沒有跟未來的總統商量啊未來的院長是誰提名?誰提名?而未來的部長是誰決定?對啊"},{"start":330.353,"end":353.873,"text":"那你現在講6月1號看善意表現不是也是空口白話嗎我在跟部長請教你知道在疫情之前兩岸開放探親之後開始可以觀光以後你知道政府什麼時候曾經明令出團到大陸去有沒有過探親開放以後"},{"start":357.987,"end":381.462,"text":"民令禁止出團到大陸很好 你知道為什麼沒有嗎疫情期間也不是民令禁止啊疫情期間是有疫情的特殊考量啊是協調業者啊那我想請問你為什麼過去不做這件事啊你說兩岸的惡意那我想請問兩岸惡意也不是今天有惡意啊"},{"start":382.608,"end":397.465,"text":"因為我們中華民國憲法保障人民有遷徙的自由你光我跟你講遷徙的自由也包括今天我們旅行的自由旅行的形態也是遷徙自由之一我告訴你你破壞了過去"},{"start":401.87,"end":413.35,"text":"很多年我們基本尊重我們的台灣人民旅行的、行事的自由起碼你剛剛講過去沒有現在只有你的任內有嘛謝謝您以上"}]}},{"id":"149435","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149435","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f39812c68f18f5ac152d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a61027fd842694b5725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"14:18:59 - 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Kacaw委員：現在在進行中，進行中的過程，按照你們的報告有提到，現在你完工了一段嘛！萬榮到南平那一段完工。你們現在在施工的時候，有沒有考量到，是不是從花蓮往臺東、往知本，對不對？這樣的一個方向嘛！我的建議啦！因為這個時間很長，怎麼樣能夠從花蓮往南的一個情況之下，先完成了就雙軌了嘛！那樣的一個規劃。"],["王部長國材：分段通車的意思，是嗎？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對啊！對啊！就能夠往這個方向。"],["王部長國材：現在是朝這方面沒錯，就是做完一段就會通。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對。這樣的話，就可以……"],["王部長國材：會。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：但是如果是中間，譬如以現在來講，萬榮到南平那是中間……"],["王部長國材：已經通了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：以花蓮來講是中間。"],["王部長國材：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：怎麼樣再從花蓮車站一路往南，這樣的方式就又不一樣了。譬如說到鳳林，假設花蓮到鳳林完成了，那就可以先雙……"],["王部長國材：目前是這樣沒錯，我請局長再幫你補充。現在做完就是馬上增加容量，就通了這樣。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，你現在是萬榮到南平，但是南平到花蓮之間還沒有啊！那就很難去坐。"],["王部長國材：希望能連是嗎？你說連起來這樣是嗎？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對。"],["楊局長正君：因為到花蓮之間現在還涉及到……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，那個高架，吉安高架。"],["楊局長正君：對。"],["王部長國材：那7個平交道比較不好處理。"],["楊局長正君：因為配合高架的部分會最後，就是配合高架的部分，因為它期程相對會比較長。那其他部分，我們整個雙軌部分會分4個階段來做陸續的……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，有關這個部分，你原來的一個規劃看看能不能做調整？就是說，這樣的進行就會比較……因為一定是要從臺北到花蓮，花蓮再往南嘛！所以這個部分你們盡量往這個方向。"],["楊局長正君：是，我們再來檢討。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這是我們花東鐵路雙軌化的部分，剛有談到。我們接著談花東快，這個是去年10月19號的報導，花東快明年2月完成可行性評估，部長當初有這樣說嗎？"],["王部長國材：是。花東快現在應該是8月吧？"],["陳局長文瑞：對。跟委員報告，花東快花蓮的說明會辦完了，因為3月份在辦臺東的說明會，臺東說明會辦完以後，因為要蒐集大家的意見再做一些整理，所以預計是8月份我們會完成這個可……"],["王部長國材：就是可行性報告完成，現在花蓮的說明會辦完，現在做臺東的說明會。結束以後會把意見加到我們可行性報告裡面，然後再來做環評跟下一階段的綜合評估。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道！"],["王部長國材：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我的建議就是花東快的可行性評估要加快。"],["王部長國材：8月。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要加快！我們就講臺灣好了，以花東快跟其他的，我們就講蘇花公路或是北迴鐵路，或者是南迴鐵路，它的難度都還比較高啦！花東快的難度其實沒有那麼高，所以那個可行性評估要加快，當然那是一定要有的程序，沒辦法，但是能夠加快，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：以現在的速度是比較慢，後面才是比較重要，環評的部分比較重要啦！"],["王部長國材：了解。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以這個部分能夠加快。","好，我們先看這個，請杜微董事長。"],["主席：請臺鐵杜董事長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我要談的是臺北市、新北市、桃園、臺中、臺南、高雄、宜蘭、新竹、苗栗、彰化，地方政府的敬老卡，原住民都降低55歲，但是他們去買火車票的時候，就沒有辦法用那個敬老卡。他一看是原住民，「拿身分證出來」！這樣不一致，全國不一致。尤其是北部，坐捷運OK，坐公車OK，然後去坐臺鐵的區間車就不OK，每次就說中央的法律還沒改。其實我們看鐵路運送規則第九條，「法定優待票」，它就要講「法定優待票」。地方政府的敬老卡也是法定啊！他也是定了他的……因為法定，並沒有講法律啦！「法定優待票」，所以有空間啊！比較不一致，對不對？"],["主席：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：常常會有這種情況嘛！坐公車，然後換區間車就不行，所以這個部分是有空間的。"],["主席：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以請交通部，尤其是我們董事長……"],["主席：好。杜局長再跟鄭委員做說明。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個要一致啦！謝謝。"],["主席：對，好，謝謝。鄭委員發言完畢。","現在請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","廖先翔","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","游顥","萬美玲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","高金素梅","王鴻薇","李柏毅","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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花東塊"},{"start":291.072,"end":291.494,"text":"明年2月"},{"start":292.694,"end":321.249,"text":"完成可行性評估當初有這樣說嗎?花東快現在應該是8月因為花東快花蓮的說明會辦完了因為3月份在辦台東的說明會那台東說明會辦完以後因為要收集大家的意見再做一些整理所以預計是8月份我們會完成這個可行性報告完成現在花蓮的說明會辦完現在正"},{"start":322.29,"end":345.643,"text":"做台東的說明會結束以後會把意見加到我們的可行性報告裡面然後往再來做環評跟下一階段的總結我知道我的建議就是說花東快的可行性評估要加快8月8月要加快因為我們就從我們就講台台灣好了台灣"},{"start":347.711,"end":358.078,"text":"以花東快跟這個蘇花我們就講蘇花公路或是說台北回鐵路或者是說這個南回鐵路"},{"start":359.482,"end":359.502,"text":"好"},{"start":389.5,"end":414.96,"text":"我們先看這個就請那個杜董事長杜董事長我在談的是臺北臺北市、新北市、桃園、臺中、臺南、高雄、宜蘭、新竹、苗栗、彰化地方政府的敬老卡原住民都降低55歲"},{"start":416.874,"end":443.377,"text":"但是他們去買火車票的時候就沒有辦法用那個監牢卡還看是原住民拿身分證出來這樣不一致全國不一致尤其是北部做捷運OK做公車OK然後去坐七間車台鐵的七間車就不OK所以這個部分"},{"start":445.783,"end":472.992,"text":"每次就是說中央的法律還沒改其實齁我們看這個鐵路運送規則第9條法定優待票他就講法定優待票地方政府的敬老卡也是法定啊他也是定了他的規則因為法定並沒有講法律啦法定優待票所以有空間啊"},{"start":474.315,"end":474.755,"text":"謝謝政委員。發言完畢。"}]}},{"id":"149434","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149434","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f4cf030b9811f204852d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a66d9aedde2b1829865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"14:02:14 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鄉親?所以到大概2026、27年要全部...所以小港機場要到你換新機而不是用調度的方式...我現在的新機是要到那個787進來以後才能考慮把他放在...我們不接受啦,我們持續的來跟華人來做一個討論,謝謝好,謝謝很抱歉讓李委員失望"}]}},{"id":"149433","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149433","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f92d0b4ef15a02f7d52d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a6c1a7608559f084635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"13:37:48 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這個委員提到一個重要課題就是標誌、標線、號誌、設置規則是就每一個設置要怎麼做但是我們就是把這個規則給地方去做整體的設計但是它整體設計有時候會格格不入比如說我們要求設什麼標誌牌結果它在某一個路口設滿了這個標誌牌的意思所以我們現在請易賢手再做一個指引"},{"start":129.315,"end":149.58,"text":"這是請預言所嗎?對,它會有一個再更細一點的就是說參考標誌標籤號誌社會規則是,你們是不是應該要有一個標準的一個範圍然後甚至對於不同的路寬不同的分隔島以及不同的路口要怎麼樣子做相關的規劃?"},{"start":150.8,"end":150.86,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":174.258,"end":192.163,"text":"我們現在不是就運用了道路交通標誌、標線、號誌、設置、規則嗎?那我們講的就是在一般道路的其他的太陽嘛,是不是?因為各種路況的太陽不一嘛,是不是?"},{"start":193.304,"end":212.757,"text":"對跟委員報告設置規則裡面對單項的標誌比如說樹線的標誌或是這個紅綠燈的號誌這個實質怎麼去做這個紅綠燈怎麼做設置他有基本的這個所謂的設置的一些原則性的規定可是道路的實際的環境每一個道路的狀況都不一樣"},{"start":213.197,"end":241.458,"text":"那到時候我們要在實際設置的時候要怎麼去運用這個規則裡面每一個單項的標誌、標籤跟號誌去做組合把它放到這個每一個現場的道路環境才能夠達到保障交通安全跟提升交通市場對,那什麼時候可以給對,我就說我們今年今年會先有一個這個這個今年是什麼時候就是年底我們會有一個初步要到年底啊那到年底前還有多少的交通事故會發生"},{"start":242.799,"end":242.899,"text":"法規在"},{"start":260.378,"end":284.269,"text":"你知道公務人員你自己就是公務人員出身的公務人員都不想要違背法規嘛那在法規的這個限定下他們就沒有就是說在依據法規的限定下那就變成說好像我們還是我們都要舉辦各縣市的這樣子相關的路口的這個相關的協調會是不是"},{"start":285.13,"end":289.605,"text":"你就要把每一個縣市每一個縣市檢討嗎?不然以後要怎麼處理呢?"},{"start":292.216,"end":318.865,"text":"第一個就是這個指引出來當然那個速度越快越好啦比如說他有些入口的太陽比如說你像彰化這一個這個斜角的路口要怎麼處理這個太陽趕快出來我是覺得他做差不多就有一些就可以劃步了慢慢當然我覺得年底太太慢了啦什麼時候可以出來我覺得陸陸續續啊因為他們也要做一個有一點時間但是我覺得陸陸續續的成果可以給地方政府來參考"},{"start":319.645,"end":321.367,"text":"你這樣子還不積極你應該要給個時間幾個月內嘛對不對你520之前可不可以做"},{"start":328.79,"end":355.664,"text":"我跟委員報告是我們當然這個整個因為標誌標証號是他實際在各種不同的道路環境之下他有很多種的設置的一個狀況那我們我想我剛才報告的就是我想我們只要這個有討論有成果我們就可以及時提供給這個我們的地方政府來做這個運用"},{"start":356.724,"end":373.866,"text":"他們做好的這些範例齁我是覺得就直接趕快給地方政府就陸續給這樣啦那臨底可能是完成但是就陸續給這樣好不好所以就是隨時都要對如果我們經過研究過程中只要有我會來追你喔對還有喔像我我"},{"start":374.967,"end":390.63,"text":"最近在地方的時候我聽到就是我們76六線那是國道嘛76線下面的就是雙向道路對於民眾來講我相信在全國裡面還是有非常多的路段是這樣子的情況"},{"start":391.411,"end":408.701,"text":"有一邊速限是70有另外一邊速限是50那為什麼會有這樣子的差別性那有沒有辦法統一呢這個也會變成中央政府跟地方政府無法權責不清的地方啊是不是"},{"start":409.838,"end":428.507,"text":"﹗"},{"start":428.607,"end":429.428,"text":"還有國道的我們的號誌"},{"start":446.581,"end":472.728,"text":"是不是也應該要只是也應該要統一或者是能夠給予更多的就是說延續性的這個就是說到達地就像我們某一個地方可能下交通道以後就是到了可能例如我們在北斗交通道下去就是西州的引道嘛引道下去是主堂這樣子你能不能提供多一點的交通資訊呢目前"},{"start":473.368,"end":493.077,"text":"你說是講國道嗎?對對對,國道應該是算...沒關係,我們順便需要請他提供一個回答趙局長跟謝委員來做回報他們有他的辦法對,我覺得應該要提供多一點的交通指引讓所有的"},{"start":493.797,"end":493.857,"text":"謝委員發言完畢"}]}},{"id":"149432","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149432","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fddefe390a956439952d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a61ec0d7733c1da22a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"13:30:37 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13:31:51","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":648,"end_time":"2024-03-06T13:31:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T13:21:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1671,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時21分）謝謝主席，我們請發展署蔡署長。"],["主席：好，請蔡署長。"],["蔡署長孟良：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好。今天就引進印度籍勞工衍生出來的外籍勞工管理的問題，我繼續請教。首先就是10萬名數量的問題，當媒體報導要引進印度籍勞工的時候，第一時間就提到10萬名這個數字，我一開始也沒有看到你們有任何駁斥，所以這件事情才會一直發酵起來。事實上，本席觀察到新聞回應，算了一下，是隔了4天之後，你們才確認即將引進印度籍勞工，而且上面根本就沒有10萬名這個數字，也不是一次就引進10萬名，而是逐步引進，也因此造成很多民眾的討論跟關注。","我們來看一下這個簡報，民國100年1月外籍勞工的人數就有三十八萬多，最多的是印尼籍的勞工，有將近16萬，到了今年1月，外籍勞工的人數已經高達七十五萬多人，而且人數超過10萬人的有菲律賓、越南、印尼，所以新聞說印度籍勞工會引進10萬名，10萬名這個數字到底是怎麼來的？是你們自己發布的嗎？如果不是的話，你搖頭，不是，那是怎麼來的？我很好奇啊！大家都很好奇。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，我們跟印度在洽商，MOU只是一個框架，裡面其實完全沒有提到未來要引進多少，甚至MOU有一條就是說未來要引進的人數完全是由我們決定，去年底我們看到這樣的訊息，發現有這樣的情形，可能是一些新媒體上面有這種錯誤的傳播……"],["陳委員瑩：是錯誤的傳播，還是你們裡面有人自己看到新開發了新的國家的移工，然後就好大喜功趕快公布了這樣的訊息，你要不要去查一下？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，絕對沒有，因為事實上當初在討論的過程中，我們一開始也是非常慎重，完全也沒有對外發布任何相關資訊。"],["陳委員瑩：我今天提出這個問題也是讓你再一次說明，也希望你們未來反應要快一點，像這種簡單就可以說明的問題，你還拖了4天。引以為戒一下，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：好，這個以後我們會來改。"],["陳委員瑩：好。再來就是第二個問題，就是逃逸移工快速增加，牽扯出印度籍勞工不當的刻板印象，問題的本質其實還是回到2022年單一年度逃逸外籍勞工大幅增加，我們看一下簡報的數字，2022年1月還在五萬多，到了12月的時候就突破了8萬人，我們再看一下簡報，本席長期都在衛環委員會，我知道過去逃逸移工人數大概都維持在五萬多，但是到今年已經高達86,000人了，在過去累積到五萬多人的時候，平均一年大概維持逃逸兩萬五千多人，查獲也是兩萬五千多人，我還記得那個時候的移民署署長，也就是前臺北市警局的邱豐光署長，他那時候績效比現在好很多，因此實際逃逸人數絕對不是我們現在看到的這個數字，我們應該要把每年逃逸的人數累積起來，不管後來有沒有被查獲，這才是我們應該重視的數據。假設10年前每年逃逸兩萬五千多人，你算一下，10年下來就是二十五萬多人，統計數據都不是這樣子算給我們看，但是我們應該要這樣算。那我就問你，最近5年每年逃逸的人次是怎麼樣？署長，你能不能說明？5年來實際累計逃逸的外籍勞工人數到底有多少？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，本來在疫情前每年的逃逸人數，誠如委員剛剛提到的，其實都非常穩定，在一個管控的範圍內，發生人數跟現況比較偏高，主要是疫情期間，尤其是在111年，那一年整個人數特別飆高，這個當然是受到整個供需市場的影響。"],["陳委員瑩：所以是因為疫情讓人數飆高？"],["蔡署長孟良：是發生疫情……"],["陳委員瑩：還是因為疫情，我們為了要控制疫情，有一些宣導，有一些誘因，請大家出來自首？"],["蔡署長孟良：就是在疫情期間失聯的人數偏高。剛剛委員提到最近5年，平均一年大概兩萬多，所以最近這5年大概是13萬人，我們透過移民署的協助，也查獲了十萬七千多人……"],["陳委員瑩：好，你很誠實地累計，講到13萬，這個數據跟我統計的也是差不多，所以我是給你肯定一下，你有誠實，其實13萬到15萬都有可能。","最近我也有注意到幾則新聞，這些新聞跟外籍勞工逃逸的原因有關，有提到經濟因素、勞動條件、雇主不當對待及疫情的邊境管制，都有相關，但是你有沒有想過它是一個系統性的問題，而且每一個單一的原因對其他的原因，整個加起來，連貫起來，都有加乘的效果？所以我個人看到，回顧當年我們審查就服法第五十二條取消三年出國一次的條文，當時你們勞動部信誓旦旦地保證逃逸外籍勞工人數將會減少，結果事實恰恰相反，那這件事情到底誰要負責？難道是我們緬懷的當時的部長郭芳煜嗎？他可以為這件事負責嗎？我只知道說，如果我出國打拼，本來每三年可以回家團聚一次，雇主提供假期跟機票給我，對於安定我的工作、我的內心，給我鼓勵，其實就是一個很重要的支持，但是現在如果移工三年後回去母國休假，之後違約不回來，不回來，也不會留在臺灣，那也不會產生更多之後的社會問題，那我們臺灣政府也不用再花更多的人力和經費去處理我們國內外籍勞工逃逸的問題。所以這就是修法前、修法後的一個很大的差異，提供給你參考。"],["蔡署長孟良：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：最後我要提的是安置的問題，就服法的地方主管機關明明就是地方政府，我們的兒童、婦女如果受到家暴，也都是透過地方政府的社政單位來安置，那為什麼我們的外籍勞工的安置，不能補助地方政府來辦理？地方政府如果接到通報，他們不就可以及時來安置嗎？而且他們也可以同時進行必要的處理，他們也沒有動機或誘因來多收安置費，而鼓勵勞資雙方來對立，更加不會有異地安置增加管理成本的問題，安置上也會比較平均，也不會說就專門集中在某一個縣市，這是一個很奇怪的現象。所以未來發展署是不是支持由地方政府機關來負責安置的工作？我請你好好考慮。"],["蔡署長孟良：謝謝委員，這一點我們非常認同，因為地方政府安置會比較方便，就是就地安置，儘量避免因為沒有安置地點而造成跨縣市的移動，這個我們會來努力。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我對你有很深的期待，看你來怎麼樣改變這個很畸形的現象，所以我今天的質詢主要就是針對印度外籍勞工引進後將來可能發生的問題先做一個提醒，也期許勞動部未來對於新聞的回應可以快速掌握核心的問題，同時可以加強逃逸移工的控管，還有剛剛很重要的提醒，就是改進安置衍生的問題。謝謝。"],["蔡署長孟良：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的質詢。","接下來我們請何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","鄭天財Sra Kacaw、鄭天財Sra Kacaw、鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員不在。","陳冠廷、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在。","王美惠、王美惠、王美惠委員不在。","徐巧芯、徐巧芯、徐巧芯委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","本日會議詢答全部結束。","委員王鴻薇所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員王鴻薇書面質詢：","勞動部針對外國人從事家庭幫傭工作之我國雇主資格，依現行法規規定，僅由家戶成員符合「有3名以上之年齡6歲以下子女。」或「有4名以上之年齡12歲以下子女，且其中2名為年齡6歲以下。」條件之一，且累計點數滿十六點者，始得申請招募或承接外國人。","然現行國內家庭多為小家庭或少子女之狀況，上述規定並不符合現今國情，且目前多為雙薪家庭狀況，需在工作與照養子女上兼顧，增加不少生育家庭壓力。勞動部是否放寬審查標準，修正相關規定至「家有一名六歲以下輕度或中度罕病兒、累計點數十六點下修及家中有兩名四歲以下幼兒」，以減緩家庭負擔？"],["委員陳冠廷書面質詢：","一、印度移工的外交風波","（勞動部）部長，我們都是身為人，才會作為台灣人、印度人。我很遺憾您的發言有失精準釀成外交風波，無論在印度主流媒體（WION、NEWS18），或是在台印度人社群、學者（胡莎娜博士）都有報導、討論此次事件。","我們現在也看到部長致歉，但部長，衍生的外交風波對我們這次的台印勞務合作備忘錄會不會有影響？勞動部有沒有預擬相關的應處措施？","本席強調，印度因為長期以來跟台灣的連結不深，造成國人對印度恐有刻板印象尚待交流後，進一步認識與了解。而政務官代表政府甚至國家形象，更需要謹言慎行。","本席了解台灣缺工的現象是個複雜的議題，牽扯到也不只是經濟面，這跟外交、國安都有關係。請問部長，是不是有相關的計畫，增加台灣對印度的認識，共同來促成雙邊在移工計畫的落實？","二、外交部書面報告與台印後續關係","（外交部）部長，這次移工問題爭議本席肯定外交部也已經發出聲明，歡迎符合申請資格、不分族裔背景的印籍移工來台。但外交部送來的書面報告就只有簡單一頁，請問雙邊關係影響，外交部有沒有評估？這些我希望在書面報告的內容，完全都沒有。","本席提醒，印度近年來跟台灣的關係越來越緊密，我們田中光次長更在印度有長達7年擔任大使的經驗，但民間的交流與理解仍有不足，外交部有沒有計畫或方案，深化台印關係？","另外，我們在孟買設處的規劃目前進行的如何？有預計什麼時候開館？邀請出席的嘉賓層級可以到多高？"],["主席：剛剛有一個臨時提案，是本席提出來的，已作文字修正，送交議事人員，那就按修正文字通過。本席也已經有連署，這是第3案，第3案通過。","現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會。我們謝謝各部會首長，大家趕快用餐，謝謝議事人員，謝謝，也謝謝媒體朋友，謝謝。","散會（13時33分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度\n移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.658468750000001,"end":11.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.41721875,"end":13.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.31534375,"end":17.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.22659375,"end":32.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.78534375,"end":44.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.05346875,"end":49.727843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.571593750000005,"end":67.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.69971875,"end":82.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.58346875000001,"end":103.25534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.49159375,"end":106.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.57534375,"end":128.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.98534375,"end":161.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.58846875,"end":164.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.00096875,"end":176.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.80534375000002,"end":185.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.43659375000001,"end":196.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.55284375000002,"end":199.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.98721875,"end":200.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.51034375,"end":199.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.25284375,"end":220.28346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.30159375000002,"end":212.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.63784375,"end":230.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.44221875000002,"end":231.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.97784375,"end":236.34846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.39909375000002,"end":271.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.60034375000004,"end":278.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.31221875,"end":306.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.05471875,"end":312.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.94409375000004,"end":313.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.53034375000004,"end":323.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.64284375,"end":323.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.65971875,"end":348.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.87096875000003,"end":351.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.98034375000003,"end":353.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.70159375000003,"end":358.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.81534375,"end":353.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.88284375,"end":353.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.52346875,"end":363.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.85596875000005,"end":387.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.02221875000004,"end":380.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.81534375,"end":380.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.13096875,"end":431.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.14909375,"end":433.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.71846875000006,"end":439.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.19846875,"end":448.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.08721875000003,"end":470.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.91096875000005,"end":47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其實我們每一年這個逃逸本來在疫情前就正如委員剛剛講 其實都非常穩定就是在一個我們在一個管控的範圍內那主要是發生會來人數會跟現況會比較會偏高是疫情期間尤其在111年他那一年是特別飆高整個人數啊這個當然跟整個供需市場的影響"},{"start":348.919,"end":362.713,"text":"所以因為疫情讓人數飆高還是因為疫情我們為了要這個控制疫情我們有一些有一些宣導有一些誘因請大家出來自首"},{"start":364.548,"end":385.481,"text":"就是在疫情期間就是發生失聯的人數比較偏高就發生偏高那剛剛大概委員提到那個最近5年大概平均大概一年大概2萬多所以5年下來大概最近這5年大概是3萬是3萬的那查緝其實我們透過移民署的協助也查獲了10萬7千多人"},{"start":386.381,"end":399.065,"text":"你很誠實的累計講到13萬這個數據跟我統計的也是差不多所以我是給你肯定一下你有誠實其實13萬到15萬都有可能那因為最近我有注意到這個幾則新聞因為跟這個"},{"start":402.606,"end":431.149,"text":"外籍勞工的逃逸的原因有關就是有提到這個經濟因素勞動條件那還有雇主不當的對待以及這個疫情的邊境的管制都有相關但是你有沒有想過它一整個它是一個系統性的問題而且它每一個單一的這個原因那對其他的原因它整個加起來連貫起來它都有一個加成的加成的這個效果"},{"start":432.636,"end":442.484,"text":"所以我是看到說每年在回顧當年我們在審查救福法52條取消3年出國儀式的條文"},{"start":451.155,"end":472.149,"text":"當時你們勞動部信誓旦旦的保證說這個逃逸的這個外籍勞工的人數將會減少結果事實恰恰相反那這件事情到底誰要負責難道是當時的我們緬懷的這個郭芳玉部長嗎他可以為這件事負責嗎"},{"start":475.267,"end":501.157,"text":"阿如果就是說我只知道說好如果本來我出國打拼那每三年可以回家團聚一次顧主提供假期跟這個機票給我那對於安定我的這個工作我的這個內心跟這個鼓勵其實就是一個很重要的一個支持嘛那但是就是說現在說就算"},{"start":503.237,"end":509.039,"text":"他們三年好回去母國休假之後呢他違約不回來了"},{"start":509.94,"end":534.753,"text":"謝謝瑩"},{"start":534.953,"end":558.793,"text":"最後我要提的是安置的問題救福法的地方主管機關明明就是地方政府我們的兒童、婦女一般如果受到家暴的時候也都是透過地方政府的設政單位來安置為什麼我們的外籍勞工的安置不能補助地方政府來辦理"},{"start":560.074,"end":581.367,"text":"然後我想就是說這個地方政府如果接到通報那他們不就可以及時來安置了嗎那而且他們也可以同時進行必要的這個處理而且也沒有說沒有這個動機或者誘因為了說是不是怎麼樣然後來多收這個安置費而鼓勵勞資雙方來對立"},{"start":584.409,"end":587.39,"text":"發展署是否支持由地方政府機關來負責安置工作?"},{"start":603.295,"end":628.255,"text":"這一點我們非常認同因為地方政府其實安置會比較方便就是就地安置盡量避免發生因為沒有安置地點而造成跨縣市這樣的移動那我想我對你有很深的期待看你來怎麼樣改變這個很畸形的現象那所以今天的質詢我們主要就是說這個針對印度外籍勞工引進將來可能會發生的問題先做一個提醒"},{"start":629.056,"end":629.136,"text":"陳瑩委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"149430","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149430","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f739d2a54f617b29e1e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a64247f7ad8659320c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"13:15:53 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13:23:59","影片長度":"00:11:01","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":661,"end_time":"2024-03-06T13:23:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T13:12:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1470,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時13分）謝謝主席，麻煩請陸委會邱主委和交通部林常次。"],["主席：請邱主委和林次長，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員太三：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我想要再確認一下，你這邊有表示現階段陸方沒有同意陸客團來臺前，假設我方單方面開放赴陸，將造成龐大的觀光逆差，是不是？什麼時候陸委會的業務跟觀光逆差、順差都有相關？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上這是交通部寫出來的評估報告，我們陸委會要綜整各部會對於這個議題的情勢分析。"],["洪委員孟楷：陸委會最主要的業務、功能、方向、目標、定位是什麼？"],["邱主任委員太三：根據陸委會的組織法，我們對於各部會涉及兩岸的政策的協調、應對方案的擬定，透過國安的討論之後來做定調。如果涉及到法令的部分，因為陸委會大概有19個部會部長是我們的委員，如果各部會涉及到兩岸的法令，原則上要在我們的委員會討論完之後才送到行政院，如果需要送到立法院的，再送到立法院來。所以我們是在做政策統合協調。當然，在政策統合協調過程中，各單位就必須要把他們的評估報告給我們陸委會，我們就會召集各個單位來討論，所以如果涉及國安的部分，就會邀請國安單位，例如國安局也好、移民署也好或相關海巡署等等，大概就是這樣的運作機制。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在3月到5月底開放組團到大陸也是陸委會同意？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，當做了政策暫停的時候，後續如果有一些問題要處理的話，那就由目的事業主管機關，因為這是事務性的工作。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在又變目的事業主管機關？你剛說彙整，現在又說目的事業主管機關。"],["邱主任委員太三：我剛剛不是講兩個層次嗎？因為有一個目的事業主管機關負責執行。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席其實最重要的是說，今天你這邊回應說造成龐大的觀光逆差，我們想說什麼時候陸委會也會插手考慮到觀光順差或逆差。"],["邱主任委員太三：我剛剛不是講了，各部會的政策評估會送到我們這邊來。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，最重點是說到目前為止，我們自己的觀光旅遊產業，本席為什麼一定要過來，就是因為我們也要為觀光旅遊產業來發聲，疫情開始的時候，飯店、旅遊、住宿、觀光、運輸等相關行業都非常辛苦，好不容易等到疫情結束、春暖花開，也覺得真的如果兩岸可以恢復平穩交流的話，當然就可以有更平和的交流。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，委員剛才提到，如果我們再把我們的國人送出去，國內的觀光旅遊業者豈不是更慘？他們的不來，我們又送人出去。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委你不用扭曲我的話，你也不用刻意戴我帽子。"],["邱主任委員太三：不，你剛剛講的是平和。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在講的是政治宣示大於整個政策發展……"],["邱主任委員太三：我沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以本席才會講，突然間說片面的又要再取消、再禁止我們的旅行社組團，而我們用的，其實很多時候，你剛剛也講了，就是說這有什麼國安考慮等等的部分。"],["邱主任委員太三：那個不是在講這個。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是我們用的法令是旅行相關的法令。"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以它是沒有直接關聯的，等於是你們想要找一個片面的法令來限制我們的旅行業者，不是嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是啊。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！現在看起來就是這樣啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：報告委員，因為在8月份的時候，你如果回去好好看8月份我們新聞稿的宣布，就是雙方對等開放嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：本席在總質詢的時候就已經跟你講過。"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席跟你講的是未來，但是你一直在講的都是歷史。"],["邱主任委員太三：不……"],["洪委員孟楷：你講的是去年的8月，本席現在跟你講的是今年的6月，今年6月的時候要禁止旅行社再組團去中國大陸，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：那現在旅行社6月可以組團去中國大陸嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：剛剛交通部不是講了嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：次長回答一下，現在旅行社6月可以組團去中國大陸嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：對方如果宣布明天說他們來，雙方就可以對等的互……"],["洪委員孟楷：那現在呢？現在旅行社可不可以組團去中國大陸？"],["邱主任委員太三：5月底之前都可以啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！所以你不就是5月底以前又做了一個變更嗎？你這根本就是強詞奪理！"],["邱主任委員太三：3月到5月底是因為暫停，等待對方善意回應這樣……調整處理機制。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在看得出來了，主委現在是在強詞奪理並且……"],["邱主任委員太三：我沒有強詞奪理啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：不願意直接面對問題。"],["邱主任委員太三：我直接面對問題啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：說實在話，你沒有直接面對問題。"],["邱主任委員太三：我怎麼沒直接面對問題？"],["洪委員孟楷：今天召委排這個專案報告非常的好，就是可以讓國人看到不管是我們的大陸委員會或相關的部會，首長都沒有直接面對問題。"],["邱主任委員太三：我直接面對問題啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：講到什麼事情的時候就會無限上綱，不管是你要說所謂的抗中保台，或是你要講好像說什麼把我們的旅行業者送出去外面，但是最重要的是，如果說沒有的話，現在很多國人前往中國大陸還是會變成地下的旅行團，不是嗎？到最後沒有保障、沒有辦法有旅行契約的，其實受苦、受傷、受害的還是我們的國人，不是嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：我講第一個部分，我們到現在為止都沒有禁止國人到大陸去自由行。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒有錯。"],["邱主任委員太三：這是國人個人的行動自由。我們政府沒有法律的依據，不能禁止他，但是旅行業是兼具有消費者權益，還兼具有……產業政策……"],["洪委員孟楷：國人前往就沒有觀光逆差的問題，但是組團去就有觀光順差跟逆差的問題？你這樣完全邏輯不通嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，我剛剛不是跟你講嘛！旅行業兼具有對消費者的保護，還兼具有我們的產業政策，這會由交通部根據……旅行業管理規則來訂定。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我覺得這樣再跟你詢答下去會浪費時間，因為你持續在繞，而且沒有辦法針對問題、解決問題。請次長。"],["主席：請林次長。"],["林次長國顯：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：請教次長，在這段時間裡面，有多少旅行業者向你陳情？有沒有接收到？不管是觀光署或次長這邊。"],["林次長國顯：是，跟我們署和交通部都有陳情。"],["洪委員孟楷：開過了幾次會？"],["林次長國顯：我們2月19日有把業者找來再做一次說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：臺灣的旅行業者？"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們有算過總共的旅行業者從業人員有多少人嗎？我們影響了多少家庭？"],["林次長國顯：我們有4,038家旅行業者，但是超過50%陸客旅遊的有404家，大概10%。"],["洪委員孟楷：他們最主要的問題是什麼？是不是認為現在3月到5月是可以組團的，但是6月突然又禁止了，現在沒有辦法收團，如果收團超過6月的狀況，是不是要取消或調整？還有，6月之後是不是遙遙無期？"],["林次長國顯：6月之後再看看……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為剛剛主委有完全不願意回答問題或滑溜的狀況，我們現在明明是用觀光條例等等來限制旅行業者，而且那一條觀光條例多嚴重啊！那一條觀光條例講的是什麼？國家安全、講的是有損害民風。"],["林次長國顯：國家利益、詐騙。"],["洪委員孟楷：那一條的立法精神是什麼？如果本席沒有記錯的話，那一條的立法精神最主要是，我們不希望臺灣、中華民國的旅行團出去外面有從事任何不法的狀況。"],["林次長國顯：您提的是第五十三條。"],["洪委員孟楷：對。"],["林次長國顯：第五十三條是希望發展觀光的過程不能玷辱國家榮譽、不能損害國家利益、不可以詐騙消費者三大項。"],["洪委員孟楷：當初那一條的立法精神是什麼？時空背景。"],["林次長國顯：這三個都是，例如人家來臺灣旅遊，結果損害了國家名譽……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯，我們講的是當初的立法精神，回去查一下，那是以發展觀光來講，我們是不希望有一些不好的團、低價的團或詐騙的團出去外面，好像把旅客當成肥羊宰。"],["林次長國顯：對，不希望人家覺得我們國家有……不過這是第五十三條。"],["洪委員孟楷：不管是進來的旅客或我們出去的旅客，我們都不希望旅行業用這種低價、削價競爭，把人家帶出去之後，例如明明是低價團，帶到外面又一定要買東西什麼的，不然不放他走，甚至還可能有更危害善良風俗的團。"],["林次長國顯：是，那是第一項，第二項是損害國家利益。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以跟現在討論的是不是根本沒有相關？"],["林次長國顯：第二項是損害國家利益，損害國家利益就是拉到經濟和觀光業的層面，你剛剛講對觀光旅遊業者的……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，損害國家利益還沒有發生之前，你講的狀況不存在，但是是不是已經實質造成很多旅行業者家庭經濟損傷？我再請教，什麼時候會再跟旅行業者開會？一直都有？"],["林次長國顯：一直都有。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候還會再開會？現在討論你的政策要改變、要調整，到5月底以前還會不會再跟旅行社業者溝通？"],["林次長國顯：應該這樣講，我們政策上都已經很明確，這一段期間如果有善意的回應，開放大陸的自由行和團客過來。"],["洪委員孟楷：甚至王國材部長還說業者可以自己去跟中國大陸講，你這樣是叫大家……"],["林次長國顯：應該不是這個意思，應該是說溝通。"],["洪委員孟楷：我不禁馬上回想這好像是：你們要自立自強啊！"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，應該是這個意思……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是交通部告訴我們所有業者要自立自強，要自己去跟中國大陸說？"],["林次長國顯：委員，我可不可以這樣跟你說明，我們的政策論述是，3月1日到5月31日之間繼續開放陸客團去大陸，但是這一段期間大陸如果有善意的回應，我們是可以隨時調整這個政策。"],["主席：次長，你不要再像鸚鵡一樣在回應這件事。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們都……"],["主席：你們剛剛一直都回應這樣子。"],["洪委員孟楷：確實。"],["林次長國顯：因為這個是目前的政策方向。"],["主席：因為今天的質詢時間都已經到了，是不是請孟楷委員也可以停止發言。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長、主委，帶回去好好了解旅行業者的心聲，不要在這邊鬼打牆或持續如剛才召委講的，真的是學鸚鵡講話。謝謝。"],["林次長國顯：好。"],["主席：非常謝謝孟楷委員的質詢，也謝謝主委、次長和副署長。","登記發言的委員除不在場之外，其餘都已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員王鴻薇所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢與未及答復部分，請相關單位在一週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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麻煩請陸委會邱主委跟交通部您嘗試好 請我們的邱主委還有林次長 謝謝來 主委我想要再確認一下就是說你這邊有表示說現階段陸方沒有同意陸客團來台前假設我方單方面開放附路將造成龐大的觀光逆差"},{"start":35.106,"end":61.111,"text":"是不是?什麼時候陸委會的業務跟我們觀光逆差、順差都有相關?基本上這是交通部寫出來的評估報告那我們陸委會是要中整各部會對於他們這個議題的情勢的補給但陸委會最主要的業務、功能、方向、目標、定位是什麼?我想根據陸委會的組織法我們是對於各部會涉及兩岸的政策的協調"},{"start":64.413,"end":75.121,"text":"應對方案的擬定,透過國安的討論之後來做這樣的一個定調如果涉及到法令的部分,因為陸委會大概有將近19個部會是我們的委員"},{"start":79.565,"end":99.394,"text":"部長是我們的委員所以如果各部會涉及到兩岸的法令他原則上要在我們的委員會討論完了之後才送到行政院那如果需要送到立法院的再送到立法院來所以我們是在做政策統合的協調那當然在政策統合協調的過程中各單位就必須要把他們的評估報告給我們陸委會"},{"start":101.039,"end":128.391,"text":"我們就會召集各單位來做這樣的一個討論如果涉及國安的部分就會邀請國安比如像國安局也好移民署也好或者是相關的海巡署等等大概就是這樣的運作機制所以說現在是3月到5月底開放這個組團到大陸也是陸委會這邊同意這個是當做了政策暫停的時候後續如果有一些問題的要學處理的話那就有目的事業主管機關"},{"start":129.011,"end":138.699,"text":"因為這個是事務性的事現在又變目的事業主委員機關我剛剛不是講成事嗎因為有一個目的事業主委員他是負責執行本席其實最重要的是說"},{"start":140.584,"end":161.324,"text":"今天你這邊回應講是說有造成龐大的一個觀光逆差我們就想說什麼時候陸委會也會插手考慮到觀光順差與逆差我剛剛不是講嗎所有各部會的政策評估最重點是說到目前為止我們自己的觀光旅遊產業本身為什麼還是一定要過來就是因為我們也要為我們觀光旅遊產業來發聲"},{"start":163.166,"end":182.807,"text":"對"},{"start":183.035,"end":186.379,"text":"現在講的是說政治宣誓來大於這整個政策的發展"},{"start":201.335,"end":230.348,"text":"所以說本席才會講是說當突然間說要片面的又要再取消又要再禁止我們的一個旅行社來去組團而我們用的其實很多時候你剛剛也講了就是說這是有什麼國安考慮等等的部分但是我們用的法令我們用的法令是旅行相關的一個法令所以說它其實是沒有直接的關聯的你等於是你們是想要找一個片面的一個法令來去限制我們的一個旅行業者不是嗎"},{"start":231.088,"end":259.229,"text":"不是啊因為在8月份現在看起來就是這樣啊在8月份的時候你如果好好回去看8月份我們的新聞稿的宣布本席在總質詢的時候就已經跟你講過每一次你都想要本席在跟你回顧的是本席現在跟你講的是未來但你一直都在講的是歷史你一直都在講的是去年的8月但本席現在跟你講的是今年的6月今年6月的時候是要禁止旅行社在組團去中國大陸嗎對不對沒有"},{"start":261.696,"end":274.467,"text":"現在旅行社6月可以組團回中國大陸嗎?剛剛那個交通部不是講了嗎?你回答一下,現在旅行社6月可以組團回中國大陸嗎?對方如果明天宣布說他們來,那我們雙方就可以"},{"start":275.589,"end":282.094,"text":"主委我現在看得出來了主委你現在就在強詞奪理並且就不願意直接面對問題說實在話你沒有直接面對問題我覺得今天召委排這個專案報告非常的好"},{"start":304.913,"end":324.961,"text":"就是可以讓國人看到是說不管是我們的大陸委員會或者是我們相關的部會的首長都沒有直接面對問題講到什麼事情的時候就會無限的上綱不管是你要說所謂的抗中保台或是你要講好像說什麼把我們的旅行業者送出去外面但最重要的是如果說沒有的話"},{"start":326.242,"end":334.459,"text":"現在很多國人前往到中國大陸還是會變成是說在地下的旅行團不是嗎?到最後沒有保障的沒有辦法有這種"},{"start":336.178,"end":355.627,"text":"旅行契約的其實受苦受傷受害的還是我們的國人不是嗎?我講第一個部分我們到現在為止都沒有禁止國人到大陸去自由行是 沒錯因為這是國人的行動自由國人前往就沒有觀光利差的問題沒有觀光利差的問題但是旅行旅團是不會有觀光利差的問題你這樣子完全邏輯不通嘛"},{"start":361.79,"end":377.161,"text":"那我剛剛不是在跟你講嗎旅行業它兼具有對消費者的保護還兼具有我們的產業政策嗎來次長那所以這個會由交通部來主委我覺得這樣再跟你殉道下去會浪費時間因為你持續在鬧而且沒有辦法針對問題解決問題來謝謝次長謝謝好委員好次長我想請教在這段時間裡面有多少旅行業者跟你來做陳情"},{"start":386.146,"end":406.155,"text":"有沒有接收到,我有觀光,不管是我們次長這邊?有跟我們署跟交通部都有申請開過幾次會?我們2月19號有把業者找來,再做一次台灣的旅行業者?是那我們有算過說這個總共的這個旅行業者從業人員有多少人嗎?"},{"start":407.168,"end":433.758,"text":"我們影響了多少家庭?我們有4000多家旅行業,但是超過50%的旅客有404家那現在他們最主要的問題是什麼?是不是認為現在3月到5月是可以組團的但是6月突然又禁止了,現在沒有辦法收團那如果說有收團超過6月的狀況,那是不是要做取消或調整?那還有6月之後是不是遙遙無期?"},{"start":435.898,"end":464.147,"text":"因為現在剛剛我們的這個主委非常的完全不願意回答問題或是說完全的這樣子的一個glue的狀況就講我們現在明明是我們用所謂的觀光條例等等的來限制旅行業者而且那條觀光條例多嚴重啊那條觀光條例講的是什麼國家安全講的是有損害民風對不對那條的立法精神是什麼"},{"start":465.527,"end":476.415,"text":"那條立法精神是不是 如果說本席沒有記錯的話那條立法精神最主要是我們不希望臺灣我們中華民國的這種旅行團出去外面有從事任何不法"},{"start":477.686,"end":478.306,"text":"時空背景"},{"start":496.354,"end":521.627,"text":"這三個都是這三個一個是譬如說人家來台灣旅遊結果你損害了國家民運沒錯我們講說當初的立法精神情那一條回去查一下那是以發展觀光來講所以說我們不希望是說我們的有一些不管說不好的團低價的團或是說詐騙的團出去外面然後好像把旅客當成是這種肥羊仔沒讓人家覺得我們這個國家"},{"start":523.709,"end":535.024,"text":"對不對 不管是進來的旅客或是我們出去的旅客我們都不希望旅行業用這種低價、消價競爭然後把人家帶出去之後然後結果有這種 譬如說"},{"start":536.124,"end":552.429,"text":"明明是低價團然後就到最後到外面然後又一定要買東西一定要什麼不然的話不放他走甚至還有可能有更危害善良風俗的這種團是 那個是第一項是那所以跟現在討論的是不是就根本沒有相關"},{"start":553.349,"end":577.904,"text":"包委員那個第二項是損害國家利益那損害國家利益就是拉到經濟跟觀光業的層面市長損害國家利益還沒有發生之前啊你講的狀況不存在但是已經實質的是不是造成很多的旅行業者的家庭經濟來損傷了我現在再請教啦什麼時候還會再跟旅行業者來開會"},{"start":583.698,"end":604.356,"text":"現在討論你的政策要改變要調整到5月底以前還會再跟旅行社業者溝通應該這樣講我們政策上都已經很明確這一段期間如果有善業的回應開放大陸的自由行跟團客過來甚至還有王國財部長講說業者可以自己去跟中國大陸講"},{"start":605.765,"end":608.366,"text":"政策論述是3月1號到5月31號之間繼續開放入客團去大陸"},{"start":627.171,"end":631.372,"text":"市長 主委 待會去好好的瞭解旅行業者的心聲不要在這邊鬼打牆或是學學就如同昭偉剛剛講的 真的是學鸚鵡講話 謝謝"},{"start":652.839,"end":656.51,"text":"非常謝謝洪孟楷委員會諮詢也謝謝我們的主委、謝謝次長、謝謝副署長"}]}},{"id":"149428","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149428","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f189568dcb1833312b97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a6be095dc505d74aa65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"13:03:02 - 13:12:21","影片長度":"00:09:19","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":559,"end_time":"2024-03-06T13:12:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T13:03:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1376,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（13時3分）請邱主委。"],["主席：有請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員太三：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：主委你好。你們今天有套招喔！我看3份報告最後的結論都是要中國大陸先有善意。"],["邱主任委員太三：在8月份的時候，我們記者會其實就已經提出要對等。"],["張委員啓楷：我先問你啦！你們希望中國大陸那邊有什麼善意？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上，剛剛不是提到了嗎？就是大家同時開放團客。"],["張委員啓楷：同時開放？另外一個點你提到希望對等，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["張委員啓楷：你的意思是中國大陸做什麼，我們這邊就做什麼？他們開放團客過來，我們就開放，是不是這樣？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上就團客的部分是這樣，坦白講，該對等的還有很多，例如……"],["張委員啓楷：我先問你一件對等的事情，我知道你是比較鴿派的，你制高點比較高的，希望兩岸和平的。中國大陸今天有做了幾個比較友善的動作，包括宗教團、文化團、經濟團、體育團，你知道他們最近有很多團申請來臺灣嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：我知道。"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼那麼多團都沒過？大部分都沒過是怎樣？"],["邱主任委員太三：這是他們自己的考量。"],["張委員啓楷：他申請為什麼要自己考量？他要來啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：我們有機制讓他申請啊！"],["張委員啓楷：等一下，我們一個一個來，第一個，你知道他們有很多宗教團、文化團、經濟團申請要來，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["張委員啓楷：這是第一個要件。第二個，你說他們最後沒來，是他們自己踩煞車還是我們這邊沒有准？"],["邱主任委員太三：就我了解的幾個部分，例如去年選舉的時候，我們有邀請他們社團學者要來，結果最後沒有來是因為他們北京沒有同意。第二個，如果是你剛剛講的宗教或什麼等等，原則上是由目的事業主管機關先審，審的時候，結果最後他們撤回。"],["張委員啓楷：是你們審的過程，他們不高興？還是有些問題？"],["邱主任委員太三：我不曉得，因為我們只接到最後的結果。"],["張委員啓楷：你是一個主張兩岸和平的人，也希望兩邊對等。"],["邱主任委員太三：當然。"],["張委員啓楷：當然，我們一定站在臺灣安全的立場，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["張委員啓楷：這不會打折扣，問題是如果對等之後，對方已經有些團希望來了，你幫我查一下數據，這半年他們有多少這種宗教團或文化團要來，第一個，多少團申請要來？第二個，有幾個團最後是通過的？第三個更重要的，被駁回的有多少？可以嗎？這對你來說很簡單，明天給我。"],["邱主任委員太三：這恐怕沒有辦法，剛剛提到，所有各種名目的團先由目的事業主管機關審，所以有可能是教育部，也有可能是內政部的，我們還要跟他們要。"],["張委員啓楷：你說要兩岸和平、要對等，結果他們申請要來，大部分在業務單位幾乎都擋掉。"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，到底什麼原因我不曉得，也有來的。"],["張委員啓楷：你知道有很多沒過，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：我不曉得，我大概跟委員報告一下，基本上是目的事業主管機關先審，認為可以的時候，才會送到移民署的審查單位。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我們都是臺灣派的，我們都會先顧臺灣，我現在要跟你講的是，兩岸這樣惡意螺旋一直往上走的時候，我們要怎樣開出一扇和平的門，我覺得這要好好討論一下，如果多一點團過來，他是有善意的來。"],["邱主任委員太三：他們要先做政策上的判斷、要不要給嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！政策是他們的，但是如果來我們這裡，若是和平來、快樂地……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們都很希望他來，我們期待他來啊！"],["張委員啓楷：所以你要先讓他們可以來，多一點團來，好不好？讓兩岸多一點交流。"],["邱主任委員太三：方向上絕對跟你一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：不只方向對而已，我要的資料你多久可以給我？"],["邱主任委員太三：我不曉得，我看……"],["張委員啓楷：一個禮拜，會不會太久？"],["邱主任委員太三：一個禮拜好了，因為我剛剛講過了。"],["張委員啓楷：一個禮拜，要包括幾個團、放行的有幾個，最後有成行的，更重要的是後來沒有來的，沒有來的是誰批了什麼最重要，你看了就知道，例如教育部為什麼不給他來？或者內政部不給宗教團來？可能內政部最多，為什麼沒來？"],["邱主任委員太三：這我不曉得，因為他如果沒有報到移民署，我們就沒有機會審。"],["張委員啓楷：我拿到資料再找你，我們兩個好好探討這個結能不能解開，我們臺灣派的，共同來把這個結解開，好不好？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒問題。"],["張委員啓楷：你這次為什麼只禁旅行業者？為什麼沒有禁其他的？你說他團客不過來，然後又M503這件事，為什麼其他都沒有動作，單獨針對旅行業者？這樣公平嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：我不曉得，我先講一個……"],["張委員啓楷：你做決策的人，你不知道？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是啦！我先講完這個，在8月份的疫後檢討，我之前已經講過好幾次，第一個……"],["張委員啓楷：我知道你講了好幾次，我是說你做這個決定有沒有想到……"],["邱主任委員太三：我先講完，權責單位到底是誰嘛！大家要討論問題總是要先知道權責單位到底是誰，我之前在立法院總質詢的時候也表示過，陸客要來臺灣是我們陸委會的權責，因為在兩岸條例第十五條。"],["張委員啓楷：你講，不給他們來的是什麼人？"],["邱主任委員太三：我們國人要去大陸，原則上是交通部的權責。"],["張委員啓楷：你如果不點頭，交通部敢做這個決定？陸委會和邱太三沒有點頭……"],["邱主任委員太三：你把我這樣子……鬧太大了啦！"],["張委員啓楷：你隨便去馬路上抓十個人，有沒有一個人會贊同邱太三、陸委會沒有點頭，交通部會同意？拜託一下好嘛！這就外行了。"],["邱主任委員太三：第二個要報告的是，8月份的討論，陸委會只負責商務人士要來臺的規劃，至於團客要出去，基本上是由交通部先作他們的規劃。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦！我就這樣跟你講，你沒有點頭，他們不會這樣做啦！旅行業應該下單都很早，機票已經買了，旅館已經訂了，可不可以跟國家求償？可以嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：這是不是請他們回答？"],["張委員啓楷：你等一下，請次長。"],["主席：請交通部林次長。"],["張委員啓楷：造成的損害，他們可不可以求償？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，基本上是我們讓他3月到5月照樣出團，6月以後就是併到前面提早，因為旅遊本身是一個選擇。"],["張委員啓楷：不是啊！有的人訂機票、訂飯店就是訂6月、7月、8月。"],["林次長國顯：機票的訂定本身是一個商業上行為，例如他訂的有沒有付定金或者只是一個承諾不一定。"],["張委員啓楷：如果已經付了定金，他可以向你求償嗎？你們要賠嗎？"],["林次長國顯：應該沒有這個機制，我們請他儘量來調整。"],["張委員啓楷：如果我做旅行社，你突然突襲一下，我做生意正常就是要長期的，你對旅行業生態也很了解，對不對？旅遊業者。"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，我們當時是要他們準備，然後慢慢整理，但是並沒有說要完全開放，到2月7日以前是請他們準備，還沒講go。"],["張委員啓楷：所以他們要求償不成立嗎？還是可以？可不可以求償？"],["周副署長廷彰：報告委員，事實上我們為了降低這樣的衝擊，所以3月到5月是可以出團的，6月以後要出團的部分有三個措施，第一個，他可以提早到3月至5月，這是沒有問題的。第二個，他可以改到其他的目的地、其他的國家去旅行。第三個，可能就是要解約，可是解約是B2B，就是旅行社跟對方的旅行社，所以這個還是要看他有沒有訂這樣的契約。"],["張委員啓楷：如果他拿出他們確實有損害，到時候我們再進一步來談，好嗎？"],["周副署長廷彰：這時我們再來跟相關業者研商。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝。","邱主委，你最近有煩惱兩岸惡意螺璇一直往上走嗎？兩會昨天開會，他們把「和平統一」拿掉了。最近金門的事件，你看他們現在海警船出來都是3,000噸的，我們小蝦米對大鯨魚要怎麼做？"],["邱主任委員太三：我想海巡署都有基本的SOP，就像對岸不管是軍事的或海巡的或其他的，我們大概都有一個基本的SOP。"],["張委員啓楷：你是專家，你會不會擔心兩岸擦槍走火？"],["邱主任委員太三：我們是希望想要使用非文明方法的人應該要好好思考。"],["張委員啓楷：你希望和平啦！我是問你會不會煩惱，有做什麼萬全的準備嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：我們還是密切關注。"],["張委員啓楷：所以沒有準備到什麼進入準戰爭、擦槍走火的準備？"],["邱主任委員太三：還是要有一段期間的觀察，因為這還涉及到整個周邊區域的問題，所以比較複雜……"],["張委員啓楷：所以站在陸委會的立場，還是希望兩岸是和平的。"],["邱主任委員太三：當然。"],["張委員啓楷：我剛剛開了一扇窗。"],["邱主任委員太三：而且增加交流。"],["張委員啓楷：我們來加強交流這一塊，好不好？"],["邱主任委員太三：好。"],["張委員啓楷：麻煩再提供資料給我，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員太三：好。"],["主席：非常謝謝啓楷委員的質詢，非常謝謝你，也謝謝主委、次長和副署長的回應。但是我剛剛聽到林次長回應的態度就可以知道，我們的旅行業者跟我們觀光署之間的會議，他們是多麼的受到困難重重，也會明瞭為什麼那麼多的旅行業者來向立法委員投訴，這樣的態度基本上你們就沒有想要善意的回應。好不好？請你們好好的檢討一下，待會啓楷要的資料，我會做最後的宣讀，請他們準備，謝謝。","繼續請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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交通部會同意基本上我在跟各位說第二個報告第二個報告就是說所有的所以8月份的這個討論呢我們陸委會只要負責商務人士要來台的規劃至於團購要出去基本上是由交通部先做他們的規劃好啦我這樣跟你講你沒有點頭他們不會這樣做的我問這個簡單那現在那個業者如果受到"},{"start":374.775,"end":381.361,"text":"李行業應該很多下單都很少對不對?例如說機票已經買了啦、旅館已經訂啦可不可以跟國家求償?"},{"start":382.25,"end":384.872,"text":"基本上是我們讓他3月到5月的照樣出團那6月以後就是變到前面提早因為旅遊本身是一個有啊 有人就定期票到定飯店就是定到月7月8月"},{"start":405.475,"end":429.987,"text":"阿機票的訂定本身他是一個商業上的：譬如說他訂的到底是有沒有付訂金還是只是一個appointment阿他如果真的有訂金阿我訂好了：他可以來你球場賣啦你賠不賠啦應該沒這個機制吧沒這個機制喔我們是阿我來做理型社我們請他盡量來調整突然突襲一下我用做生意就是進行就是長期阿理型社你對理型社有什麼概念嗎理由業者教委員報告齁我們當然是叫他準備嘛"},{"start":432.348,"end":437.892,"text":"報告委員,事實上我們為了降低這樣的一個衝擊所以3月到5月是可以出團的那6月以後要出團的一個部分的話要有三個措施第一個是說他可以提早提早到3月到5月這邊這是沒有問題的"},{"start":462.029,"end":463.13,"text":"你最近就反而兩岸二一螺旋一直往上走嗎?"},{"start":491.047,"end":499.894,"text":"兩會長啓楷他們把那個和平統一拿掉了嘛對不對?這件金門的事你看他們的那個海警船現在出來都3000噸的對不對?我們的小蝦米對大經理要怎樣?你覺得?"},{"start":505.177,"end":530.515,"text":"我講海巡署他們都有基本的SOP就像對岸不管是軍事的或者是海巡的或者是其他的我們大概都有一個基本的SOP你轉角你會反而現在兩岸有擦槍走火嗎?我們是希望想要使用非文明方法的戰爭你希望和平啦我是說你會反而不會啦會反而有做什麼?我們還是密切關注啦密切關注"},{"start":532.236,"end":532.956,"text":"非常謝謝齊凱委員的質詢 非常謝謝您也謝謝我們的主委次長的回應"}]}},{"id":"149427","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149427","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f9f114209deacca83b97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a6b88a9dc59f6a476c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:53:58 - 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陸客其實在過去對我們台灣我們的國內旅遊市場2019年之前它其實是非常重要的一個我們講的收入來源那實際上對於旅行社它當然不只是整個旅行業來講不只是國內它也包括大陸的部分也是旅行社重要的收入可是現在你會發現說"},{"start":194.235,"end":210.617,"text":"你現在我們的整個來台旅遊的人數不斷的減少那第一個對旅行業者的衝擊當然就會出現嘛對不對那我想請問齁那台灣不能帶團過去也不能帶團過來造成的業者的巨大的經濟損失"},{"start":212.817,"end":240.083,"text":"請問我們有沒有相應的客人可以補得上?該委員就說明事實上這個疫後之後整個市場是有一些的變化那像我們國人到其他旅行目的地去旅遊的話那分別是今天我們調查是日本然後再來就是韓國、越南、泰國等等所以他的那個旅遊的市場其實有一些的變化"},{"start":241.203,"end":243.585,"text":"實際上有時候我們來看我們觀光成效跟鄰近的國家來相比那像鄰近包括日本在去年就已經回復到疫情前的旅遊業的榮景"},{"start":265.822,"end":267.763,"text":"目前臺灣準備好了嗎?目前到底我們的目標是什麼?"},{"start":288.837,"end":304.708,"text":"我們的目標到底萊克的目標是多少跟委員做個報告我們目標大概是在千萬能夠達到一千萬以上的達得到嗎我們有信心有信心那也剩下這個九個月時間左右對不對"},{"start":306.249,"end":329.68,"text":"那我想看看上個禮拜我們交通部長王國才部長的說法他說期待今年入客能來同時也要將日本韓國東南亞旅客作為今年的重點還有印度市場也是要努力的目標那我想請問你我目前看到的數據不只是入客沒辦法連日本客成效也沒有很亮眼"},{"start":330.882,"end":336.447,"text":"那我想請問那你現在兩岸之間上綱的政治衝突這麼大結果你發現我們當然東牆垮了可是事實上我們也找不到西牆來補啊但是你又那麼信心滿滿說你能夠達到千萬目標因為事實上之前你的目標是一千兩百萬啊不是嗎 對不對那現在保守一點變一千萬當場少了兩百萬啊"},{"start":354.909,"end":373.876,"text":"那我想請問你會不會到年底你的目標又更保守了因為現在現實的狀況你就看到事實上我們目前來看的話台灣的旅行業者就面臨兩邊的為難嘛那你今天說不准入團到大陸去其實某種程度我認為是也是對旅行業者的一個懲罰不是嗎"},{"start":376.145,"end":387.03,"text":"因為那個是奧邦我們當然是很希望說世界上各個國家能夠來到台灣因為他這樣對台灣的消費他的一個才有貢獻"},{"start":388.277,"end":412.745,"text":"所以像我們說國外的旅遊啊那個旅客如果覺得台灣的旅遊品質沒有達到預期那或者同樣的價格沒有有更好的選擇那就會造成說今天不把台灣列為第一選擇嘛這種情形是存在的嘛 對不對這個我們一直在努力可是我看到你們這個我們政府的說法就直接推給說國內的旅館的價格太高啊是這樣推的嗎"},{"start":415.653,"end":427.629,"text":"其實這個旅館的價格是市場的機制那在平日的部分的話其實蠻多的旅館的價格事實上我也看到我們有一些關於旅遊方面的一些評論人他講到說"},{"start":430.673,"end":449.865,"text":"這個顯示出你像其他國家在疫情後他的不然國內國外的旅遊尤其國內旅遊蓬勃發展跟他疫情期間趁著所謂的疫情期間來客少做了很多的一些觀光方面的一些改造跟規劃是有關的"},{"start":450.646,"end":459.381,"text":"所以它不會是一個單一說旅館的昂貴不昂貴的因素而是今天你能不能產生更好的性價比來去吸引觀光的來客"},{"start":460.461,"end":486.309,"text":"所以我今天要問就是說那事實上以目前來看就是說我如果我不能夠調整我們國內旅遊觀光的品質跟提高這個性價比你先不要講說吸引來客我們台灣自己的國人在旅遊的選項上如果我們的性價比不夠的話他會選擇留在國內還是到國外去是 剛剛委員就有一個報告那委員剛剛所提的我非常贊同"},{"start":486.869,"end":508.602,"text":"所以這個在國內旅遊的人次的部分也是我們一直努力的重點那根據我們的調查我們去年的一個國旅的人次我最後講一個就是說網路上最有流傳的梗圖就是說公司預算減少所以員工旅遊從墾丁改成日本你不覺得這樣的梗圖非常的對我們的政府是個很大的羞辱嗎"},{"start":510.183,"end":510.303,"text":"羅智強委員"}]}},{"id":"149426","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149426","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f0fd6e71cfaa57250b97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a60d89127cd4efb96d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"12:43:35 - 12:52:54","影片長度":"00:09:19","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":559,"end_time":"2024-03-06T12:52:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T12:43:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1290,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（12時43分）謝謝主席，我想請一下邱主委。主席：請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員太三：鄭委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：主委好。首先要謝謝主席針對赴陸旅遊團停招一事召開今天的會議，連著禮拜一討論的金廈撞船事件，我發現大家都把焦點放在海洋委員會，反而對陸委會這邊比較少關注到，可是說實話，我覺得這兩個問題都跟陸委會有非常非常大的影響，而且有關聯性，其實陸委會能夠影響到這兩件事情，我覺得非常的關鍵。我們先看一下在人類歷史上，其實很多的戰爭，很多的意外都是出自於意外，並不是真的準備要打這場仗，才去打這場仗，所以對於整個金廈事件，我們也擔心會危及到兩岸關係的發展。","今天針對旅遊團這個部分，我先簡單講一下，之前邱主委曾經說過，必須要對岸也開放來臺，我們這邊才用對等的方式去做，否則就按照國安問題，先把它停下來。我這樣的理解有沒有錯？"],["邱主任委員太三：後面的部分沒有，因為我們8月宣布的時候就是依對等原則。"],["鄭委員正鈐：交通部後來又把它停下來，就是覺得對岸還沒有開放，所以就沒有開放嘛，我們這邊也要把它停下來？"],["邱主任委員太三：這個是其中一個原因。"],["鄭委員正鈐：交通部後面的一個原因……"],["邱主任委員太三：因為前提沒有了，我們希望他開放……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，理解。我覺得這個邏輯是我們能夠掌握的，就是在我們手上的資源跟手上的球，如果大陸方面都沒有善意的回應時，我們以後是不是就永遠都不要有大陸團到大陸去，你的邏輯就變成這樣子，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：委員可能沒有注意到，其實我某次在受訪時曾經提到，如果大陸不要的話，我們對大陸的政策有自己的節奏跟我們的機制。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以節奏的部分，就有可能都不開放，還是說什麼時候會開放？如果大陸沒有開放，你覺得什麼時候會開放？"],["邱主任委員太三：我想委員也很清楚，兩岸情勢的變化，不只是在政治、軍事、經濟，還有其他的面向，如社會的面向等等。我們當然會隨著不同的時期，不同的狀況，譬如說他們現在開兩會，我們也會觀察他們這兩會未來的政治情勢跟他們內部的問題……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以，現在你講很多，可是那個部分也不是我們能夠掌握的，我們現在能夠掌握的狀態，我就直接講一下，旅遊業到我們辦公室來陳情，他們說如果陸委會這邊還是卡著，交通部這邊還是卡著，6月1號之後沒有辦法繼續出團的時候，他們準備5月20號要上街頭。因為他們覺得這已經影響到他們的生存問題。","其實我們也都覺得我們國家的尊嚴很重要，兩岸對等也很重要，可是我要講一件事情，就是大陸來臺的人數統計跟臺灣去大陸的人數統計，高點大概都在417萬跟418萬左右，進出兩岸的高點大概都差不多；可是時間點不太一樣，大陸來臺灣的高點大概是在2015年左右，臺灣去大陸的高點大概在2018年左右，我們看到的統計數字類似這樣。我知道有不同的統計數字，它有不同的狀態，可是我要講的狀態是，當417萬的大陸人到臺灣來的時候，對臺灣具體產生了一些影響，可是418萬的臺灣人到大陸去的時候，對大陸產生的影響非常的小。","我在這邊另外再請主委看一個數字，我們直接來看飯店業者的數據，觀光旅館的住用率與國際觀光旅館的住用率，以及一般旅館的住用率，在這三個部分中我們就只看觀光旅館的住用率，也就是國際加一般，平均起來之後，在103年的高點大概是71.8%，大約是七成多的平均住房率。當大陸來臺灣的旅遊人數變得比較少的時候，我們粗略來看整個住房率的指標，大概影響了10%、大概影響了10%。我這邊所講的情況就是為什麼旅遊業者很跳腳的原因，執政黨現在整個相關的政策感覺是兒戲，去年8月宣布3月1日要開放臺灣遊客組團去大陸旅遊，在選完之後又改變了，現在只能開放到5月31日，所以他們很跳腳、他們很跳腳，目前正準備要上街頭。我覺得對旅遊業者而言，如果非得要上街頭，肯定就是他們的生存受到影響，而且他們講給我聽的時候更是義憤填膺，很多髒話都飆出來了、髒話都飆出來了。他們覺得現在的執政黨憑什麼不讓大家出團去大陸，交通部依據的法律是什麼？","針對星期一與今天的質詢，我覺得陸委會應該在兩岸的關係處理中扮演更關鍵的角色、更關鍵的角色，到底我們的禁團令適不適合？適不適法？交通部這邊講的是觀光條例的部分，但我們認為憲法第十條保障人民有居住遷徙的自由，而且大法官釋字第443號、第454號與第558號都很清楚提到，人民有任意移居或旅行各地的權利，如果要對人民的自由權利加以限制，必須要符合憲法第二十三條所定的必要程度，並且以法律定之，或者經立法機關明確授權，由行政機關以命令定之。針對這個部分來講，現在交通部這邊直接下令禁止臺灣人民組團到大陸旅遊，我們認為是違反了憲法對人民居住遷徙自由的保障。","我認為陸委會主委這個角色很重要、這個角色很重要，剛剛一開始我就提到兩岸關係要走向和平的面對或是可能會有意外發生，陸委會也許都不是主要的第一線的單位，像禮拜一開會時大家主要都是針對海洋委員會，今天可能大家都針對交通部等等，但這是與兩岸有關的事，陸委會絕對難辭其責任，我覺得你應該要擔起你的責任。今天我們講的某個部分還比較軟性一點，因為是旅遊相關的問題，而你剛剛提到當兩岸關係有所調整的時候，臺灣要組團去大陸也是可以開放的，你的意思是這樣，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你認為大概在什麼樣的情況下才可以開放？"],["邱主任委員太三：8月份的新聞已經發布，前提就已經講了，雙方應該要對等互惠。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我剛剛一開始就提到所謂對等的概念……"],["邱主任委員太三：他們到現在為止還是禁止團客到我們這邊來……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，但是我們現在等於是打我們自己的旅遊業者、打我們自己的小孩給對方看，以為綁架我們自己的旅遊業者，對方就會妥協，這個情況很奇怪。"],["邱主任委員太三：8月份的宣告不是很明確了嗎？"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個情況很奇怪。"],["邱主任委員太三：8月份的宣告就很明確，你可以請他們看一下8月份的新聞稿。"],["鄭委員正鈐：問題是在選後又做了一個轉折啊！我們真的很難接受這樣的一個轉折，業者真的無法接受，所以他們打算要上街頭。"],["邱主任委員太三：第一個，對方不但不對等，而且不公平，他開放給138個國家，沒有開放給我們。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你覺得他們上街頭也無所謂嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，我只是要讓國人了解，這個考量到底是什麼。"],["主席：謝謝主委的回應，現在詢答的時間已經到了，謝謝鄭正鈐委員、也謝謝主委，謝謝。","請林委員楚茵、林委員楚茵、林委員楚茵不在場。","請羅委員美玲、羅委員美玲、羅委員美玲不在場。","請王委員鴻薇、王委員鴻薇、王委員鴻薇不在場。","請莊委員瑞雄、莊委員瑞雄、莊委員瑞雄不在場。","請呂委員玉玲、呂委員玉玲、呂委員玉玲不在場。","請楊委員瓊瓔、楊委員瓊瓔、楊委員瓊瓔不在場。","請鍾委員佳濱、鍾委員佳濱、鍾委員佳濱不在場。","請張委員嘉郡、張委員嘉郡、張委員嘉郡不在場。","請何委員欣純、何委員欣純、何委員欣純不在場。","請林委員俊憲、林委員俊憲、林委員俊憲不在場。","請蘇委員清泉、蘇委員清泉、蘇委員清泉不在場。","請游委員顥、游委員顥、游委員顥不在場。","請陳委員雪生、陳委員雪生、陳委員雪生不在場。","請許委員智傑、許委員智傑、許委員智傑不在場。","請馬委員文君、馬委員文君、馬委員文君不在場。","請傅委員崐萁、傅委員崐萁、傅委員崐萁不在場。","請蔡委員易餘、蔡委員易餘、蔡委員易餘不在場。","請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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這個禮拜一的時候我發現大家都把焦點放在那個海洋委員會反而對陸委會這邊比較少關注到可是我覺得這兩個問題都跟陸委會有非常非常大的影響說實話而且有關聯性就是說陸委會其實能夠影響到這兩件事情我覺得非常的關鍵那我們先看一下整個"},{"start":50.865,"end":66.066,"text":"人類歷史上面其實很多的戰爭很多的意外都是出現於意外並不是真的說我準備要打這場仗才去打這場仗所以我們其實對於整個驚嚇事件我們也擔心會危及到兩岸的一個關係的一個發展"},{"start":67.908,"end":91.841,"text":"那麼今天針對旅遊團這個部分的時候那我首先先簡單講一下那之前那個邱主委曾經說過就是必須要對岸也開放來台那我們這邊才對等的方式去做這樣子的一個方式否則就按照國安的問題就先把它停下來我這樣理解有沒有錯後面的部分沒有8月宣布的時候就是依對等原則"},{"start":92.261,"end":92.781,"text":"理解 理解 理解"},{"start":110.388,"end":128.088,"text":"所以我覺得這邊這個邏輯因為我覺得我們能夠掌握就是掌握在我們手上的資源跟手上的球所以我在想說哇那如果說大陸方面如果說都沒有善意回應的時候我們是不是以後就永遠其實都不要有大陸團到大陸去你的邏輯就變成這樣子對不對"},{"start":129.629,"end":156.826,"text":"委員可能沒有注意到我中間其實有在某次的受訪我有提到如果大陸不要的話我們對大陸的政策我們有自己的節奏跟我們的基層所以節奏的時候就有可能就是都不開放啦還是說什麼時候會開放如果大陸沒有開放你覺得什麼時候會開放因為今天我想委員都很清楚兩岸的情勢的變化不只是在政治、軍事、經濟還有其他的這個"},{"start":157.987,"end":159.449,"text":"所以現在你講很多可是那個部分也不是我們能夠掌握的"},{"start":175.069,"end":194.228,"text":"現在我們掌握的狀態,我就直接講一下,旅遊業到我們辦公室來陳情了,他們就講說如果說陸委會這邊還是卡著,交通部這邊還是卡著,不能讓出團去5月31號之後,6月1號之後沒有辦法繼續出團的時候,他們準備5月20號要上街頭啦"},{"start":195.41,"end":197.612,"text":"臺灣的尊嚴很重要兩岸對等也很重要可是我要講一件事情我們看到"},{"start":212.429,"end":220.237,"text":"大陸來台的人數統計跟台灣去大陸的人數統計高點大概都在417萬跟418萬左右差不多兩岸進去的高點大概都差不多可是時間點不太一樣大陸來台灣的高點大概是在2015年左右"},{"start":231.528,"end":245.783,"text":"台灣去大陸的高點大概在2018年左右大概是這樣子我們看到統計數字類似這樣那我知道有不同的統計數字它有不同的狀態可是我要講的狀態是當417萬的大陸人到台灣來的時候對台灣具體產生了一些影響"},{"start":253.611,"end":268.565,"text":"418萬台灣人到大陸去的時候對大陸產生的影響非常的小那我就這邊我就給另外再跟那個主委這邊再看一個數字就是我們直接來看一下就是飯店業者他們的一個數字出來"},{"start":272.447,"end":293.697,"text":"我們看到的一個情況就是觀光旅館的租用率跟國際觀光旅館的租用率的狀態還有整個一般旅館的租用率我們這三個部分算起來我們就只看觀光旅館的租用率就是國際加一般平均起來的時候在103年的時候高點大概是71.8%啦大概有7成多的一個平均的一個住房率"},{"start":294.837,"end":322.543,"text":"當我們在變得比較少的時候呢就大陸對台灣我們粗略來看的時候對整個住房率這個指標來看的時候大概影響10%大概影響10%的一個狀態那我這邊要講的一個情況就是為什麼旅遊業者他們很跳腳的原因就是這樣子就覺得說整個執政黨現在對於整個相關的政策感覺是兒戲去年8月的時候可以開放說要開放3月1號要開放就是赴大陸"},{"start":324.143,"end":336.368,"text":"臺灣的遊客赴陸團組團去大陸旅遊然後選完了之後呢然後又改變了那現在只能開放到5月31號所以他們很跳腳所以他們準備要上街頭那我覺得以"},{"start":341.223,"end":368.98,"text":"旅遊業者來講的時候他們如果會要上街頭肯定是他們生存受到影響了嘛那他們也直接在跟我講他們也在跟我講的時候講得更是義憤填膺啊就很多那個髒話都飆出來了髒話都飆出來那他們覺得說現在執行黨憑什麼東西能夠讓大家不能夠出團去大陸覺得交通部這樣子的一個依法在哪邊交通部今天我就重點不在因為我覺得我為什麼一開始講到"},{"start":370.521,"end":371.922,"text":"其實交通部之前講到是對觀光條例的部分"},{"start":390.375,"end":406.726,"text":"關於條例部分的時候,我們認為按照憲法第10條保障的人民有居住遷徙的自由當中,包括大法官釋字第443號、454號、558號當中,都很清楚提到了人民有任意移居或旅行各地的權利。"},{"start":408.191,"end":424.466,"text":"如果要對人民的自由權利加以限制,必須要符合憲法第23條所定的必要程度,並且以法律定之,或者經立法機關明確授權,由行政機關以命令定之。"},{"start":425.006,"end":441.341,"text":"所以對於這個部分來說的時候我們認為現在交通部這邊就直接下令禁止台灣人民組團到大陸去旅遊我們認為其實是違反了憲法對人民居住千里自由的保障"},{"start":442.952,"end":461.783,"text":"我認為陸委會主委這個角色很重要就是我剛剛一開始提到說兩岸的一個關係要走向一個和平的一個面對還是可能會有意外發生我覺得陸委會也許都不是主要的"},{"start":462.603,"end":483.891,"text":"第一線的一個單位像禮拜一主要大家都針對海洋委員會那今天可能大家都針對交通部或等等可是我覺得這跟兩岸有關的如果會絕對難持其責任就是你的責任的部分我覺得一定要擔起來所以今天我們講的某個部分還比較軟性一點"},{"start":484.471,"end":487.392,"text":"8月份的新聞已經發佈了那前提就已經講了雙方應該要對等互惠吧"},{"start":512.526,"end":527.092,"text":"所以我剛一開始就提到所謂的對等這概念來說的時候他們到現在為止禁止團客到我們這邊來啊理解可是我們現在等於是打我們自己的旅遊業者打我們自己的小孩給對方看我們綁架我們的旅遊業者對方就能夠妥協這個情況很奇怪這個情況很奇怪啊理解可是問題是在選後的時候又做了一個轉折啊"},{"start":538.917,"end":539.178,"text":"主席主委"}]}},{"id":"149425","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149425","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fad4259d85e680776b97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a67353aa92d074c9205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"12:28:54 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12:39:33","影片長度":"00:10:39","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":639,"end_time":"2024-03-06T12:39:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T12:28:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1180,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時28分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請交通部林次長還有陸委會邱主委。"],["主席：請邱主委還有林次長。謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：我先請教邱主委，今天這個禁陸團令是誰下的決定？"],["邱主任委員太三：這個是我們在2月6號……"],["賴委員士葆：國安會議嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，我們跟交通部跟相關的……"],["賴委員士葆：總統沒有主持嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是總統，因為這個基本上……"],["賴委員士葆：主持人是誰？"],["邱主任委員太三：8月份的時候……"],["賴委員士葆：主持人是誰？我問你主持人是誰？"],["邱主任委員太三：就是跨部會的運作……"],["賴委員士葆：跨部會的主持人是誰？像今天的主持人就是高金委員。"],["邱主任委員太三：因為那天都不是我們兩個人去參加的……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你都沒有參加？"],["邱主任委員太三：不，不，我們是指派人去的，這部分應該是詹副主委去……"],["賴委員士葆：這麼大的事情，你指派人去喔？"],["邱主任委員太三：因為……"],["賴委員士葆：你逃避責任喔！"],["邱主任委員太三：我沒有所謂逃避責任……"],["賴委員士葆：這樣……"],["邱主任委員太三：委員大概也知道，一般的國安會議，我們每個禮拜都有召開……"],["賴委員士葆：這個是什麼會議？"],["邱主任委員太三：這個是針對前面已經宣布的，當時是經濟部還有我們跟交通部，針對到底要不要開放我們的團客到大陸，跟商務人士來臺等等……"],["賴委員士葆：所以那個會議你也沒有參加？"],["邱主任委員太三：那個會議我有參加。"],["賴委員士葆：我說的是拍板決定禁止赴陸團，你沒有參加？"],["邱主任委員太三：應該是最後一次我沒有參加，因為之前我們會把各單位的……"],["賴委員士葆：不能這樣子喔！這麼大的政策！"],["邱主任委員太三：委員應該知道我們每一個首長要參加的會議很多，不管是行政院的院會……"],["賴委員士葆：當然，看事務的程度，可是這個不重要嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：我剛剛不是講了嗎？基本上我們每個禮拜都會有所謂的國安會議，我們會跟相關……"],["賴委員士葆：總統大選的時候，賴清德怎麼樣說要照顧我們的觀光業、旅遊業，要開放大陸，結果現在選上了，你們騙到了、當選了，就……"],["邱主任委員太三：委員你這樣講可能……"],["賴委員士葆：結果……"],["邱主任委員太三：剛剛前面國民黨的委員有提到其他六項，最後一項是開放中客到臺灣來，我們開放了，問題是他們不放啊。"],["賴委員士葆：這是另外一件事。"],["邱主任委員太三：剛剛那個國民黨的委員就列了六項，副署長都有看到，第六項就是開放中客到臺灣……"],["賴委員士葆：你要尊重每一個立委的意見……"],["邱主任委員太三：結果是對岸不放啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你尊重我的意見！"],["邱主任委員太三：因為你問到這個問題，我只好跟你補充。"],["賴委員士葆：我告訴你，你不能用他來說，他又不是聖經，你這樣是黑白「花」！不能當過立委的政務官就這樣黑白「花」！現在邱太三明白告訴我……"],["主席：對不起，讓我主持會議一下，請主委針對現在質詢委員所提出的問題，而不是上個委員所提的問題。謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：非常好！這個主席當得好！以後都讓你當主席！主委，這麼大的一個禁陸團令，第一個你不在場，第二個你也不知道是誰拍板的，這告訴我們什麼？就是說，反正你不在場，到時候出問題了，也沒得追究的！耍無賴，說我不知道，兩手一攤！"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有啦！你沒有看我今天還是來接受各位的質詢？"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！你就不知道啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：我怎麼會不知道，你問我任何一個問題，我都知道，不然你問！"],["賴委員士葆：你當時沒有在場啊！我要問的就是……"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我們這個回來都會寫報告給我。"],["賴委員士葆：我要問的就是這個決定是誰做的？誰敲這個錘子？那個主席很重要！"],["邱主任委員太三：我想主席也是一樣，尊重大家討論到最後的決議……"],["賴委員士葆：時間暫停，我跟召委報告，我們要求他事後提供那一天做成禁陸團令的會議名稱、時間、誰當主席、出席者的名單給我們，可以嗎？"],["主席：不好意思，我在這邊回覆一下士葆委員，最後我會裁定，提醒他們再提供什麼樣的資料，你剛剛提供的意見很好，其實我已經準備好了。謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：這個主席很棒！邱主委以前是國代出身的，我對你講大聲一點，罵大聲一點，會說一聲歹勢，但是又覺得你不得不罵。"],["邱主任委員太三：謝謝您體諒。"],["賴委員士葆：主委，我們都知道，美蘇兩大強權過去的時候，戰成那樣，打得那樣，還是有大使來往，有政治手段；現在臺灣對中國大陸來看，就說一個是強硬的，一個就是放軟的，結果你看我們這邊現在幾乎百分之百是零，兩會沒有溝通。海基、海協請問什麼時候可以恢復交流？海基會的員工沒事情可以做了！"],["邱主任委員太三：我想這個就是對岸他們能夠自己擺脫那個政治的魔咒跟框架，那大概就可以了！"],["賴委員士葆：它已經存在八年了，你要解決啊！你不要不會駛船嫌溪彎！"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，沒有。我想兩岸有很多處理的機制，有的需要的是政治層面的，有的需要……"],["賴委員士葆：我先問你一個很實際的問題，比如你任何重要的意思有沒有透過適當的管道讓對岸知道，有沒有？"],["邱主任委員太三：我想兩岸……"],["賴委員士葆：這時候你要講實話，你要講實話！"],["邱主任委員太三：對，對，我先講完。我想兩岸三十幾年來建立了很多的機制……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你的白話文，就是你的意思一定有辦法讓對岸知道？有秘密管道的意思？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有什麼秘密管道啦，就是既有的管道、現成的管道！"],["賴委員士葆：問題是，海基、海協就沒通啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我再報告一次，沒有關係。因為兩岸過去三十幾年來已建立很多的機制，簽了很多的協議，也設立了很多的窗口，有的窗口是傳達訊息，有的窗口是處理個案……"],["賴委員士葆：過去陳水扁執政的時候，陸委會的主委叫蔡英文，姓蔡名英文，那時候還有複委託……"],["邱主任委員太三：後來還有陳明通。"],["賴委員士葆：現在來講，台旅會跟陸海旅會有沒有通？這也是典型的複委託。"],["林次長國顯：他們有派代表在這邊，我們一般都會……"],["賴委員士葆：我問你現在有沒有通，你都不講。"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告還有。"],["賴委員士葆：最近金廈事件有沒有通？"],["邱主任委員太三：那不是他們的。"],["林次長國顯：金廈事件不是海旅會的。"],["賴委員士葆：好，他們有沒有反映說歡迎我們的陸團去，或是說為什麼陸團都說好了，怎麼又沒有了？有沒有？講一下！講一下！"],["主席：委員在質詢，請明確回答。"],["周副署長廷彰：報告委員，小兩會主要是在觀光這個業務，我們一直釋放善意，歡迎陸客可以組團來到臺灣，他們也是希望我們可以到大陸去旅遊。"],["賴委員士葆：你們也跟他們表示，因為對岸對我們不友善，所以我們停了，對岸能不能接受？對岸的反應是什麼？陸海旅會的反應是什麼？"],["周副署長廷彰：我們是釋放善意啦！"],["賴委員士葆：他們怎麼講？"],["周副署長廷彰：他們目前應該是……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有什麼應該啦！你還不清楚狀況嗎？"],["周副署長廷彰：應該是還沒有回應。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有回應嘛！請問邱主委，兩岸關係現在是越來越好？還是越來越不好？還是差不多？"],["邱主任委員太三：就是差不多啦！"],["賴委員士葆：在人家召開的兩會──人大會跟政協會議那麼重要的講稿裡面，原來都是講應和平統一，就是他講他的，結果現在把「和平」拿掉了，外界解讀說，就是因為對金廈的事情不滿，才把它拿掉了。"],["邱主任委員太三：跟委員再報告一次，我們把過去歷次不同政黨的時代，他們在兩會所做的報告，我們做了比較綜合性的研析，簡單來講……"],["賴委員士葆：主席已經站上來了，所以你不要講太多……"],["邱主任委員太三：簡單來講，就是他們在民進黨執政的時候大概是反獨優先；在國民黨執政的時候是促統優先，大概有這樣的一個差異。"],["賴委員士葆：現在呢？是既促統又反獨？是不是？"],["邱主任委員太三：目前看起來，他們在過去這幾個月的說法大概都是要反制台獨勢力跟外界的干預，大概都是用這兩個。"],["賴委員士葆：是不是針對賴清德？"],["邱主任委員太三：我不認為是這樣子，因為這已經好幾年都這樣子。"],["賴委員士葆：我要補充的最後一點，兩個大人吵架，不能夠把小孩子拿去撞。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，我也認為這樣。"],["賴委員士葆：可是你們現在就這樣子啊！兩會不好，然後就把我們的旅遊業拿去撞下去，這樣子撞下去是不好的。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員你要跟對岸大概強調一點，他們不但不對等，而且不公平！為什麼開放了138個國家……"],["賴委員士葆：全世界沒有這樣的國家啦！哪有跟其他國家吵架，就禁止赴陸團，對不起，你這是違憲！找不到法律的依據，你說的那個國家利益，就是在道地的戒嚴條款底下，就是只有行政權，不能這樣啦！"],["主席：非常謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢，也謝謝主委、次長。我跟委員說明一下，我等會會做一個結論；第二個，明天會安排陸委會、海基會來做業務報告，所以明天再來，我們期待還會看到精彩的質詢跟對話，好嗎？謝謝。","現在請謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員不在。","我們按照剛剛宣告的休息3分鐘，然後再繼續開會。","休息（12時40分）","繼續開會（12時43分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會，請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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到時候出問題人家就追究我耍無賴 我不知道兩手一攤我今天還是要接受各位的質詢我不知道你問我任何一個問題我都知道不然你問"},{"start":237.483,"end":238.103,"text":"主席尊重大家討論最後的決議"},{"start":260.865,"end":285.212,"text":"我們要求他事後提供吧,內政會議就是做成進入團令的時間、會議名稱、誰當主席、出席名單給我們,可以嗎?好,不好意思,我在這邊回覆一下這個司法委員我事實上做最後我會裁定,請他們再提供什麼樣的資料來你剛剛提供的意見很好,其實我已經準備好了,謝謝你這個"},{"start":292.597,"end":318.132,"text":"在邱主委以前是國代出身的喔我要對你講大聲一點罵大聲一點你是要說抱歉的喔但是就覺得你不是罵的謝謝你體諒來主委我們都知道嘛齁美蘇兩大強權過去的時候把你整個這樣撲個這樣還是有大使來往啊有政治手段啊現在台灣對中國大陸來看的話只有"},{"start":319.09,"end":347.956,"text":"就是說一個我們強硬的一個就是放軟的結果我們現在這邊幾乎百分之百這邊是0了幾乎是0了兩會沒有溝通你看喔兩會海基海協請問什麼時候可以恢復交流我想這個就是對岸他能夠自己擺脫那個政治的模特跟框架那大概就可以了他已經存在8年了你要解決啊"},{"start":349.309,"end":373.677,"text":"請問請問請問請問請問請問請問請問"},{"start":374.281,"end":394.675,"text":"我講兩岸三十幾年來呢建立了很多的機制所以你的白話文就是你的意思一定有辦法讓對岸知道有秘密管道的意思沒有什麼秘密管道啦就具有的管道啦具有的管道就現場的管道啦"},{"start":397.213,"end":397.973,"text":"有的窗口是傳達訊息有的窗口是處理個案過去陳水扁執政的時候那時候陸委主委叫做蔡英文"},{"start":421.827,"end":430.194,"text":"姓蔡名英文顧緯托現在來講台旅跟陸海旅會有沒有通?也是典型的顧緯托他們有派代表在這邊現在有沒有通?我問你有沒有通?最近的驚嚇事件有沒有通?"},{"start":448.871,"end":465.273,"text":"警校事件不是海旅會他們有沒有反映說歡迎我們入團去或者有沒有失望說為什麼入團的公庫為什麼不來有沒有講一下講一下回答"},{"start":467.859,"end":489.897,"text":"請明確回答好不好,現在有一個質詢,謝謝報告委員,所以因為在小館會主要是觀光這個業務所以我們一直釋放這個三一說歡迎陸客可以組團來到台灣當然他們也是希望我們可以到大陸去旅遊你們也表示呢"},{"start":493.598,"end":513.238,"text":"跟他說,因為對岸對岸不友善,所以我們停了。對岸能不能接受?對岸的反應是什麼?這個陸海旅會的反應是什麼?我們是釋放善意啦。他怎麼講?他怎麼講?他目前應該是...就是...沒什麼應該啊!他應該是還沒回應啦!"},{"start":515.236,"end":525.087,"text":"沒有回應嘛這東西來來來邱主委請問你兩岸關係現在是越來越好還是越來越不好現在還是差不多就是差不多啦人家兩會這麼重要的講稿裡面結果兩會啊現在才開的兩會啊人大跟政要政協啊"},{"start":535.967,"end":537.568,"text":"主席是站出來的,所以你不要講太多"},{"start":566.055,"end":566.815,"text":"我要補充的最後一點"},{"start":595.209,"end":607.315,"text":"兩位大人吵架不能夠把小孩子拿去撞對 我也認為這樣你們現在就這樣子啊兩會不好然後就把我們的旅遊業誰去攏不是誰來攏 這樣攏所以你要跟對岸大概強調一點他不但不對等而且不公平為什麼開放了38個國家全世界各個國家啦跟其他國家吵架呢而且你禁止赴陸團對不起你是違憲找不到法律的依據你那個那什麼國家利益這個"},{"start":624.804,"end":624.964,"text":"賴士葆委員"}]}},{"id":"149424","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149424","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172ff5d3a4c244f2ab10b97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a644b1c410c0429cd25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"12:20:32 - 12:28:45","影片長度":"00:08:13","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":493,"end_time":"2024-03-06T12:28:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T12:20:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1161,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（12時20分）有請交通部次長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，我們有請次長。"],["林次長國顯：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝主席、謝謝次長。非本委只有8分鐘，所以我快速帶過。因為剛好就在前幾天也有提到中國的灰色地帶作戰，灰色地帶作戰在前面我們提到的是比較偏軍事的層面，軍事的層面有某種程度還是要我們怎麼做預判、怎麼做透明化，今天面臨的比較不是偏軍事的狀況，但我認為還是有很多地方可以適用。這邊先來看一下，畢竟在中國對各個國家的灰色地帶作戰中，現在對臺灣是最多的。通常他們的作戰分成四個不同的層面，有軍事的、有我比較擅長的資訊類的、有經濟的，也有地緣政治的。我們現在面臨的當然比較多是經濟相關，其實以往我們遇到的比較多可能是農產品，他們簽契作等等之類的，所以在這邊我們稍微整理了歷年來他們在經濟上面對我們的壓迫，包含臺灣豬、鳳梨等等，這邊我就不多唸。在他們的手段當中，我發現在我們的應對……當然今天經濟部並不在場，但是我們很多時候都是比較被動的回應，譬如說他今天弄的是鳳梨，那我們解決的就是鳳梨，想辦法透過外銷的方式讓它可以銷到日本之類的。今天我們遇到的狀況又再更往前進一步，因為它涉及的已經不只是經濟的利益，我相信在前面很多的委員也都有提到業者的損失等等；但這次還有牽涉到國人旅遊，簡單來講旅遊本來就有到哪裡的自由，當然在對於比較危險的地方會有不同的顏色，請國人不要前往。但是現在我們所做的手段變得比較不一樣，因為中國先限制團客，我們現在用的方式是依據對等原則，既然陸方限制團客，我們也用團客相關的限制。所以，第一個我想問，在做協調機制的過程當中所謂的對等原則，有必要一定都是跟他相同的手段嗎？譬如說他今天用的是旅遊，我們就一定要用旅遊反制，還是說可以用其他的手段，這個有沒有在當時的評估狀況？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，其實您提的很重要，政府在處理事情不會只用一個單一手段，會綜合各方的訊息跟資訊，所以即使大陸禁止，其實他不只禁止團客，他連自由行都沒有開放。對我們來講，我們是沒有禁止自由行到大陸，所以這個部分我們比他開放很多，我們也希望他們對等開放，自由行也盡量開放。團客部分因為涉及到不特定人士赴陌生地方的旅遊，所以基本上會有旅行社的業者來帶團，帶團相對是比自由行複雜一點。自由行一般來講就是自己要去某個地方，自己要判斷那個地方有沒有不方便，有沒有安全疑慮，到底為什麼目的而且有選擇性，也不一定到大陸，也可以到東北亞、東南亞甚至歐美，所以自由選擇比較高；團客也有這樣的選擇性，但是基本上還是受旅行業管理規則的限制。所以您提的沒有錯，這些議題都是不同的訊息，包含今年初的外交事件、M503事件，導致政府綜合考慮要做這樣的決定。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以是不是可以這樣理解，就是我們在應對的時候，其實不僅僅是中國團客這一件事情而已，是在整個政治的研判當中，包含M503，甚至包含他們其他外交的施壓，所以我們採取這個手段。"],["林次長國顯：這個就會綜合來考慮。"],["沈委員伯洋：好。再來我想問的就是，因為有業者利益的問題，前面應該有不少人提到有沒有給業者足夠的反應時間？以及業者對於做中國團客相關的風險在哪裡？像以往就會有民間團體建議說是不是他們應該要有某種程度的保險，是不是政府有可能來擬定跟規劃保險。畢竟跟中國做生意，跟中國有任何經濟上的往來它是有風險的事情；我知道陸委會一直以來也都會警告國人這是一個風險。但是風險有了之後有些人他願意take這個風險；有了風險之後常常會想到補償嘛，如果說我們已經告訴國人有這個風險，結果他還願意去做，到底是要由政府來補償？還是由市場機制來決定？請問有這樣的保險機制的一個研擬規劃，會不會是一個比較適當的做法？想要就教交通部或者陸委會都可以。"],["林次長國顯：由觀光署來報告。"],["沈委員伯洋：沒問題，請。"],["周副署長延彰：報告委員，如果旅行社組團就可以保旅行社責任險、旅責險，自由行的旅客到各地方去旅行的話當然可以保旅遊平安險啊，或者是不便險之類的……"],["沈委員伯洋：那業者本身的保險，業者自己的保險呢？"],["周副署長廷彰：因為業者目前也有加入這個品保協會，品保協會就是來保障整體參團消費者的權益。"],["沈委員伯洋：我們今天如果層次再拉高一點，就是對於他們在經營這件事業的風險，我指的是這件事情，我在想未來我們會不會有機會來討論這一件，因為時間的關係，我們就先跳過去。接下來我想要問的，就是我們現在要對未來做一些研判，其實團客這件事情，如禁止旅遊之類的，以往就有發生過；但如果他們想要推的方式─好，我現在開始開放中國的團客來到臺灣，但我只開放承認九二共識的特定縣市，或是我只開放金門─如果他們今天提出這樣的方案，我們的對策會是什麼？"],["周副署長廷彰：這個我們在去年8月24號的時候就已經第二次提到，要在對等的情況下去做兩岸觀光的交流。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我們現在害怕的是，對我們來講，這本來應該就像我們現在這邊討論的，它是中央主管的事務，他們如果把它降成是一個地方的事務，由地方來決定，決定了以後，成為既成事實，那麼就會跟現在金門海域一樣，造成既成事實，就會形成一個新的框架，這個框架對我們執政來講，一定會有一些困擾。所以我覺得我們可以先預想：如果這樣的狀況發生，我們該怎麼辦？這是我個人的一個建議。","最後，我知道很多人在討論這次我們禁團的法源問題，我們找到的旅遊觀光條例或者發展觀光條例，它本身因為有罰則規定，看起來很像是一個法源，但畢竟它當時在設計的時候，絕對不是直接針對這個狀況。如果我們今天不斷的要反制對方，不管是軍事，還是經濟的壓迫，今天討論的是經濟，而我們現在比較欠缺的是一個比較概括性的法源，也就是說我們的反制措施如果沒有一個更高的法源基礎，那麼每一次遇到這些狀況的時候，都會有點捉襟見肘，就是我們要一直來找，到底是哪一個法源適合使用，這個一定也會造成國人的疑慮。所以就我們剛剛講的這個部分，對未來的一個研判，還有陸委會以後在針對這類事情的反制措施，會不會有一個新的法源，能夠建議我們這邊立法者來進行，也希望能看到法制相關的一些研析，然後我們可以來討論這件事情。因為時間到了，我就先講到這邊。謝謝。"],["周副署長廷彰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：非常謝謝沈伯洋委員的質詢，謝謝次長、副署長。","繼續請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:10:37 - 12:20:03","影片長度":"00:09:26","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":566,"end_time":"2024-03-06T12:20:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T12:10:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1135,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時11分）主席、各位委員，有請交通部。"],["主席：有請交通部次長，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：還有觀光署。"],["主席：好，觀光署副署長。"],["林次長國顯：鄭委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：次長好，副署長好。兩岸關係以我們的年紀都應該知道，我們就不要講很早，從蔣經國到李登輝到陳水扁總統，就先到這裡。兩岸關係很多的變化起起伏伏，對不對？臺灣自稱民主法治的國家，自由民主很重要，從過去蔣經國時代開始開放探親，都是臺灣先。從開放探親，到後來的自由行、組團，請問一下，臺灣的人民組團自由的去大陸，什麼時候開始？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，76年。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：76年，對不對？按照所謂的威權統治，83年以前叫威權統治，對不對？這是臺灣的法律明定，威權統治時期我們就開放自由行了。所以我請教一下，你知道大陸發射飛彈的時間嗎？"],["林次長國顯：應該是1995年吧，1995年。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：1996年臺海危機，臺灣海峽飛彈危機，我們有沒有停止自由行？針對這個部分，我們作為交通部、作為觀光署，為了人民的自由，為了人民觀光的自由、旅行業的這些產業要去說服，要去跟陸委會，甚至國安局國安單位他們說明，我們不能倒退，現在是倒退啊，現在是倒退。"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，自由行還是開放的，我們自由行還是可以去大陸，目前沒有禁。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：但是不能組團，這有差別對不對？好，105年起因為蔡英文執政了，大陸開始做了很多的限制，108年8月1號起，暫停47個城市大陸居民來臺，那我們還是繼續去對不對？那次長，我們還是繼續組團去嘛。"],["林次長國顯：是陸方禁止他們。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對呀，陸方禁止了。現在變成，陸方因為不讓他們來，不讓大陸人民來，所以我們就，M什麼……"],["林次長國顯：M503。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：M503，那個跟飛彈危機如何相比，對不對？所以政治的因素絕對會有，但是怎麼樣去勸；因為我是事務官出身，我在中央原民會服務都經歷過，民進黨執政、國民黨執政都經歷過。這些政務官沒辦法，他有他的不同的使命，但是我們作為事務官，觀光署你是事務官，署長你現在是事務官嗎？現在改了？"],["林次長國顯：副署長是事務官。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：副署長是事務官嘛，所以我們要去勸，要勸的話，當然要有說服的資料，提供說服的資訊，對不對？不然的話一直一直去爭論那個，以現在的危機還沒有到飛彈危機吧，對不對？發射飛彈喔，所以兩岸的關係起起伏伏，會因著執政者的政策有很多的變動。但是怎麼樣就人民的權益，人民的權益是最優先的，當然這個部分你們也是受害了，你們一直被旅行社罵，但是該反映的還是要反映。"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，其實您提的很重要，我們基於目的事業主管機關，我們會聽各方業者的意見，所以在過去結合陸委會跟經濟部，其實就是希望這個方向是往正面開放為主，但是也要等對方有正面互動。因為國內有一堆旅行業者、觀光業者、餐旅業者，他們希望陸客來台，所以是希望兩邊相向而行，正面來互動是比較好的結果。那您剛提的這幾項其實都是陸方目前為止沒有開放，我們自由行一直沒有停，自由行是可以過去，那團客的部分，目前3月1號到5月31號也開放，就是讓大陸先看到我們的善意。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不管名稱叫什麼都不重要，就是臺灣的人民自由的去哪裡都沒有關係。好，我先撇開大陸，請教一下，我們跟其他國家有開放組團或是他們的人民自由過來，或是他們禁止，哪一個國家，我們就先舉離大陸最近的北韓，北韓他們的人民可以自由的來嗎？他們可以組團來嗎？沒有嘛，不行嘛。"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，基本上很多國家是由……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們可以自由的去，我們沒有禁止，我們組團還是可以去啊。"],["林次長國顯：我們沒有禁止，基本上大部分國家也都沒有禁止他們的人民來臺灣旅遊。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以從觀光業，觀光業是一個產業，我們必須要去考量。當然人民的安全是第一考量，在人民的安全並沒有危害的情況之下，難免會有政治的因素，但是這些政治的因素我們要強烈的去說明，不要讓臺灣的自由民主法治國家倒退，所以這個部分，因為剛才都聽過，我的同學陸委會主委，都聽過他講，我就不再問他了，好，謝謝。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員指教，謝謝。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝鄭天財委員質詢，謝謝。也謝謝次長跟副署長。繼續請沈伯洋委員來質詢，我們到謝衣鳯委員質詢結束，休息3分鐘好不好，謝謝。請沈伯洋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw"}]}},{"id":"149422","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149422","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fadd59f52590e454b1e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a6ab1fa2a3e1be9c325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"13:09:50 - 13:15:47","影片長度":"00:05:57","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":357,"end_time":"2024-03-06T13:15:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T13:09:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1624,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（13時9分）謝謝主席，有請勞動部許部長。"],["主席：好，請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，事實上今天討論的包括印度移工未來是否開放，討論這些事實上就是為了補足臺灣勞動力不足，臺灣的勞動力不足自然有很多因素，其中包括臺灣人就業的選擇，也許現在臺灣人漸漸都比較排斥比較屬於三K產業或是比較勞力密集的工作，這個部分可能需要移工來協助。但是我們在基層看到，我覺得最主要有一個很關鍵的問題，就是臺灣的失聯移工太多了，失聯移工很多，所以事實上在講印度移工會怎樣，我覺得未必，問題主要還是出在失聯移工，失聯移工當然是另外部會所管轄的範圍，但是部長，你有沒有去思考一個問題？我覺得你們真的要認真思考，就是說，你們到底是希望來臺灣的移工人數越來越多，還是希望我們可以有效補足臺灣的勞動力不足？你們的目的是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：就是要補足勞動力不足。"],["蔡委員易餘：我想大家都是這樣的想法，如果在這樣一個想法的推演之下，就像我今天標題寫的，你們為什麼不能同意外勞去兼差？為什麼？比如說，農業缺工，農業缺工是季節性的，他可能一年就那個月在忙而已，除非是畜牧業。你說農業團體真的缺工，過去我們小時候有很多阿嬤是不是都在挖蘆筍？現在都沒人要挖蘆筍了，所以現在種蘆筍的農業就需要工人，可是問題就是做工的時間點不是每年，如果我們可以順勢補足人力，讓一些移工去兼業，畢竟移工來臺灣的目的也是要多賺一點錢，他們來臺灣，對他們來說，有時候休假不是他們的目的，他們想在臺灣短時間內趕快賺錢，然後趕快回到他們自己的國家，所以不管是站在人權的立場，還是解決我們移工勞動力問題的立場，我們就有效管理，讓他們去兼業，至於可以兼業的範圍、可以去兼業的時間，你們再訂辦法就好了嘛。部長，這一塊不能去思考一下嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這個可能要整個重新再檢討，因為……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，我知道，這個當然是比較……"],["許部長銘春：這個牽涉到修法，基本上，開放移工進來當初有一些考量，包括雇主，還有限業，還有包括本國人的就業機會等等……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，限業是一個嘛，所以他們兼業也是要符合規定，這個都你們去設計沒關係，我們不用去自我拘束，然後一直在這個問題裡面一直循環，沒辦法解決問題，事實上有很多的缺工真的就是短時間的，有一點像是讓外勞去賺外快的概念，這一塊如果解決了，就解決了一部分的缺工問題，當然不是全部嘛。"],["許部長銘春：因為我們現在是單一雇主……"],["蔡委員易餘：就是要雇主同意啊。"],["許部長銘春：包含職災責任等等，委員，你的提議我知道，我們再來……"],["蔡委員易餘：這些勞基法都有整套的規定，就是說，在職災的認定，到底怎樣算是工作場所的轉換，我覺得這都是勞基法有規定，只是沒有辦法把這一套法令放在移工部分，我們都一直害怕把這部分放在移工上會不會產生問題，事實上你們都有辦法，你們只要把辦法訂出來，然後落實管理，又解決了一塊問題，而且解決這一塊問題，對於農業有紮實的幫助，你現在推動外展，你現在做特定的農業，然後他們去合作社，然後大家去撿工作，先撿一個月，另外再撿一個月，結果我問很多地方，都撿不出來，解決農業移工問題後來就只能解決畜牧業的問題，因為畜牧業整年都很忙，剩下的部分就很難解決。我們與其再去想開放，還不如去想有效的解決辦法。部長，我覺得你們可以去思考。"],["許部長銘春：好，我再請業務單位再來討論。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個是比較基層的問題，我們對營造業有開放移工，但是我們有要求他們有一個承攬工程的金額上限，這個金額我不知道怎麼算的，但是如果以我們嘉義縣來說，我們一年超過兩億、甚至一億以上的公共工程沒有那麼多，他們都是做很多小工程，做很多可能規模是幾千萬的小工程，但是就無法累積到這個金額，所以也無法適用這次開放營造業申請移工的資格，他們的小工程無法累積到這樣的量。沒關係，這是細節，有機會我再跟部長討論。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：以上質詢。我認為移工兼業是可以討論的。"],["許部長銘春：好，我們再討論一下。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員的質詢。","接下來我們請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","我們請羅智強委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度\n移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.51096875,"end":10.054718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.341593750000001,"end":11.269718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.661593750000002,"end":23.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.02721875,"end":28.262843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.566593750000003,"end":51.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.58534375,"end":44.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.28534375,"end":46.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.37346875,"end":49.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.533468750000004,"end":52.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.41096875,"end":58.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.26221875,"end":60.392843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.578468750000006,"end":63.953468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.49346875,"end":76.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.30596875,"end":80.27159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.04784375,"end":84.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.32971875000001,"end":87.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.47284375000001,"end":96.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.43471875,"end":92.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.21909375,"end":92.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.97784375,"end":102.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.21721875,"end":104.74034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.55034375000001,"end":110.37659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.79846875000001,"end":111.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.19909375,"end":114.57846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.08471875000001,"end":121.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.41284375000001,"end":127.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.45409375000001,"end":151.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.41659375,"end":175.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.15096875,"end":179.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.28596875000002,"end":194.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.50034375,"end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程他是做好多可能幾千萬幾千萬幾千萬的小工程但是他就無法累積到這個金額所以他也無法去適用到我們這一次開放營造業可以去申請移工變成說他的小工程無法累積到這樣的量這沒關係這細節我再跟部長有機會我們再討論以上諮詢我認為這個移工這部分"},{"start":347.34,"end":347.681,"text":"蔡易餘委員"}]}},{"id":"149421","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149421","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f8cd7029e7dffbd111e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a68f3283415c968b375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:59:04 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13:09:43","影片長度":"00:10:39","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":639,"end_time":"2024-03-06T13:09:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T12:59:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1547,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時59分）請許部長。"],["主席：有請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：許部長，直接就教，我們現在要開放印度移工的引進，那產業現在缺工的狀況到底有多少？"],["許部長銘春：產業的缺工，像製造業，我們去年有做統計，整個缺工大概二十三萬多。"],["洪委員孟楷：二十三萬多。"],["許部長銘春：二十三萬七，全體產業，全體。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，你現在很簡單嘛！你的報告裡面有講說製造業、營造業缺工問題嚴重，那你的問題嚴重是有多嚴重？"],["許部長銘春：營造業大概目前是2萬，製造業大概是7.4萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，製造業是7.4萬，營造業是2萬，加起來是不是將近10萬？"],["許部長銘春：對，差不多。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在移工總共是多少人？是75萬，那其中你講的是說泰國籍六萬多，但是你下面也講泰國因為經濟發展，有減少移工輸出的趨勢，所以我們泰國籍的移工是不是越來越少？"],["許部長銘春：會越來越少。"],["洪委員孟楷：會越來越少嘛。可能他們覺得泰國本地經濟也發展起來，所以他們可能就會回國，對不對？或者是說他們可能有去其他地方。所以你剛剛講的缺工有10萬人，再加上泰國籍差不多6萬人也減少了，所以是不是我們現在缺口至少有16萬人左右？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，沒有，不是這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：缺口至少10萬人以上。"],["許部長銘春：缺口大概10萬，我們現在調查的數字是這樣，我們都會滾動地去瞭解缺工的狀況。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。那本席就好奇，去年就有傳言說勞動部要跟印度簽MOU，引進印度的移工，當時有講到有可能要引進10萬移工，勞動部特地發文說這個是假消息、假訊息，結果不到兩個月的時間，今年2月就已經簽署了MOU，後續還會再完成正式的締約，結果我們再看，今天部長也證實了，確實現在缺口就至少有10萬以上……"],["許部長銘春：沒有，沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼沒有？你兩分鐘前才說……"],["許部長銘春：不是，這兩件事情沒有關聯啦……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是。你先聽完我講的話。部長，本席現在就要問的是，你現在一直口口聲聲說我們要開放印度移工是給雇主多一個選擇，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那雇主為什麼要多一個選擇？就是因為原本的這些管道已經不足以讓他拿到這一些移工了嘛……"],["許部長銘春：不是，不是，不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：他沒有辦法引進這些移工了嘛。如果說他可以引進這些移工的話，就不存在你所謂的10萬個缺口，不是嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我這麼講，雇主就現有的來源國可以引進移工……"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["許部長銘春：但是我們這個是一個未雨綢繆的規劃，因為就像剛剛講的……"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是未雨綢繆，這叫補破網。部長，因為你已經承認了，你剛剛已經承認了我們現在缺口是10萬。"],["許部長銘春：不是補破網。缺口的10萬，他要用本勞還是用外勞來引進，這個都是大家來努力啦……"],["洪委員孟楷：那為什麼我們現在產業會有缺工10萬？這是你統計的，本席都用您給的數字來跟你就教。為什麼那麼多委員都會關心你現在貿然開放到底要多少？你都講說沒有沒有，這是MOU，人數你不知道，人數你們會控管，放心，大家一定會把關好，但重點就在於，當我們就是有那麼多缺口的時候，你是不是就要從這個地方補足這個缺口？否則的話，我們國內的產業就是需要這些人啊。"],["許部長銘春：不是啦。委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果說我們缺口沒有那麼嚴重的話，你為什麼要去簽這個MOU？為什麼要跟印度簽MOU？"],["許部長銘春：這是兩回事，簽MOU是開發新的來源國……"],["洪委員孟楷：那你開發新的來源國的用意是什麼？就是要補足缺口嘛。"],["許部長銘春：不是補足那個缺口啦。MOU是這樣子，我新增來源國就是讓雇主未來有多一個選擇，讓我們不會太過依賴已經開放的這四個國家，萬一哪一天他們暫停或不輸出，那我們可能整個移工的來源會出問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，現在我們有掌握到哪一個地方有可能暫停或不輸出嗎？"],["許部長銘春：目前是正常，但是我剛剛跟委員說……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，所以你講的狀況根本不存在……"],["許部長銘春：不是，就剛剛我講的，泰國的營造工已經不太進來了，越南的經濟也慢慢上來，我們也擔心，以後如果他們那邊的薪資條件各方面比較好，他們可能就沒有要來，所以我們要做一些……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席現在講的是，行政部門在一個多月、兩個月前、去年可以大動作地說這個是假訊息，結果選完不到一個月的時間，就簽了MOU，所以這根本……"],["許部長銘春：我說的假訊息是第一個、還沒有簽，有在談，沒有簽；第二個，我想去……"],["洪委員孟楷：有在談，沒有簽，但是是不是過完之後一個月就簽了？"],["許部長銘春：沒有10萬的這個問題，沒有10萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有10萬，但是有10萬的缺口，不是嗎？"],["許部長銘春：那個是兩回事啦。缺口是主計總處的調查，是1月的調查，我怎麼之前就會去處理？這兩個部分是……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你真要這樣講，我們就再就教一下，這是你今天給的報告，3月6日勞動部給的報告，你開宗明義第一章是什麼？移工需求逐年增加，尤其製造業跟營造業缺工問題嚴重。你自己寫的，本席就要問你你的依據是什麼，憑什麼寫缺工問題嚴重？你所謂的嚴重到底是差了多少人？你剛剛就講是10萬人嘛，所以這就是根本的問題所在。","部長，本席花了4分鐘講了這些事情，但是本席其實最重點是什麼？重點是想要提醒你，我們到底缺的是勞工還是廉價勞工？到底我們的問題是本勞都不願意去做那些工作，還是業者不願意再出更多的成本，所以要push你們這邊要有更多的移工管道？因為本席都知道，很多的營造業可能也會跟我們講，現在馬來西亞或東南亞有一些國家的營造也起來了，甚至有很多東南亞的國家，他們可能會選擇去其他國家做移工，而不是選擇臺灣，就是說，他們認為那邊的薪資待遇也不錯，所以我們到底缺的是勞工還是廉價勞工？那我們除了開放，有沒有規劃未來再去提升整個勞工的待遇環境？","我最後再講一點。抱歉，主席，再給我30秒。剛剛臨時提案有提到要跟縣市政府來溝通，縣市政府有沒有準備好？剛剛有講到可能還不一定會做這樣的一個說明會，但是我想請教，如果真的有印度移工進來的話，有沒有算過哪些縣市會優先，那一些移工會比較優先去那些縣市？"],["許部長銘春：這個看到時候雇主的選擇啊！這個沒有辦法去瞭解……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是。我想問的是，你其實很簡單，你完全可以去瞭解，你只要做一個研究，你去調查現在營造業跟製造業主要的工程、主要的施工環境在哪邊、在哪幾個縣市，就看得出來哪幾個縣市缺工問題嚴重，既然可以知道哪幾個縣市缺工問題嚴重，未來印度移工可以開放的話，一定是那幾個縣市優先想要搶印度移工啊，所以那幾個縣市是不是就是重點、應該先說明的地方？如果說有些縣市根本沒有那個工作機會或沒有工作需求，即便你開放100個國家，也不會有移工去嘛。但是現在有一些縣市，譬如說新北市，可能重大工程比較多，相對來講，開放移工之後，是不是有可能因為缺工問題嚴重，所以就比較有可能找移工進來？那是不是新北市政府就應該要列為勞動部優先溝通的對象或是說明的對象？這您認同嗎？"],["許部長銘春：可以啦。這個部分，我們後續會跟……"],["洪委員孟楷：可不可以盤點？部長，能不能盤點出來現在缺工問題嚴重的是在哪幾個縣市？"],["許部長銘春：因為目的事業主管機關是在內政部營建署，到時候我們邀他們開會的時候，大概……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是勞動部主管的就是勞動相關的問題，所以這也是為什麼大家會問你嘛。"],["許部長銘春：不是，委員，我們是負責說哪些行業可以引進移工、開發新的來源國，產業的缺工問題，各目的事業主管機關……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你們不是只是開放，後續的問題，不管是社會問題、水土不服適應的問題或種種問題，都丟給其他的部會……"],["許部長銘春：我沒有說……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這是為什麼本席才會說……"],["許部長銘春：委員，我剛才講是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：甚至你的問題有可能是丟給地方政府。"],["許部長銘春：我不會丟給地方政府，我剛剛是要跟你解釋說，營造業的問題、缺工的問題，還有各縣市……"],["洪委員孟楷：既然不要丟給地方政府，勞動部是不是應該先找地方政府來溝通？看到底地方政府有沒有準備好，或是說地方政府說明會應該要事先做什麼準備，來因應未來有可能進來的印度移工。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們諮詢會議會邀請，包括我們後續的工作層級會議，我們從各部會瞭解缺工狀況，比如說，如果我們能夠從營建署這邊知道每個縣市營造業缺工情形，我們也會來……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我最後一句話，我想請教，你什麼時候會開諮詢會？什麼時候會開？"],["許部長銘春：諮詢會議開過一次了，3月1日開過一次了……"],["洪委員孟楷：找了哪幾個縣市政府？"],["許部長銘春：沒有啦，這一次只有專家學者跟跨部會。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，只有專家，本席剛剛就講嘛，未來諮詢會議找縣市政府，告訴縣市政府，之後有可能印度移工人數增加的話，縣市政府要怎麼因應，要有什麼措施來配合。什麼時候會開？"],["許部長銘春：這個我們再來做規劃，後續的會議規劃我們請業務單位來處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：在開放印度移工前一定要開，這樣可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：可以啊。這沒有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：開放印度移工進來之前，一定要跟縣市政府，尤其是重點縣市政府開諮詢會、說明會，這樣可以？"],["許部長銘春：這沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。謝謝部長。"],["主席：好。謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來我們請徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","我們請蔡易餘委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_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足缺口嗎不是補足那個缺口啦"},{"start":251.291,"end":273.325,"text":"MOU是這樣子我新增來源國就是讓僱主未來有多一個選擇然後不會讓我們太過依賴這些已經開放的這四個國家萬一如果哪一天它暫停或者不輸出那我們可能整個移工的來源會出問題那現在我們有掌握到哪一個地方它有可能暫停或不輸出嗎"},{"start":275.908,"end":284.395,"text":"目前是正常但是我剛跟委員說所以主委你講的狀況根本不存在部長你講的狀況根本不存在本席現在講的是本席現在講的是然後越南的經濟也慢慢上來我們也擔心以後如果他那邊的薪資條件各方面比較好"},{"start":296.325,"end":310.039,"text":"部長本席現在講的就是說這樣行政部門在一個多月兩個月前去年可以大動作的講是說這個是假訊息結果選完到一個月的時間就簽了NOU所以說這根本就是有在談沒有簽但是是不是過完之後一個月就簽了沒有10萬但是你有10萬的缺口"},{"start":317.506,"end":345.608,"text":"那個兩位是啦缺口那是主計總署的調查他是1月的調查我怎麼之前就會去這兩個部份是來來來這一件來來來部長您正要這樣講我們就再就教一下這是你今天給的報告3月6號勞動部給的報告你開宗明義第一章是什麼移工需求逐年增加那移工需求逐年增加尤其製造業跟營造業缺工問題嚴重"},{"start":347.571,"end":376.79,"text":"那你缺工問題嚴重你自己寫的本席就要問你是說你的依據是什麼憑什麼會寫缺工問題嚴重嘛你嚴重到底是差了多少人所以說你剛剛就講就是10萬人嘛所以這就是根本的問題所在部長本席現在我們花了4分鐘部長本席花了4分鐘講了這些事情但是本席其實最重點是什麼重點是想要提醒你我們到底缺的是勞工還是廉價勞工"},{"start":377.551,"end":377.585,"text":"本集完"},{"start":379.482,"end":406.784,"text":"到底我們的是本勞我們都不願意去做那些工作還是業者不願意再出更多的成本所以說要push你們這邊要進要有更多的移工管道因為本席都知道很多的營造業可能也都跟我們講是說現在馬來西亞或是東南亞一些國家他們的營造也起來了所以說甚至有很多東南亞國家他們也可能會選擇去其他的國家去做移工而不是選擇台灣"},{"start":407.845,"end":425.872,"text":"就是他們認為是說那邊的這個薪資待遇也不錯所以我們到底確實是勞工還是廉價勞工那我們除了說只是開放有沒有未來再去提升整個勞工的一個待遇環境我最後講一點啦抱歉主席三四秒"},{"start":427.56,"end":447.26,"text":"剛臨時提案有提到是說要跟縣市政府這邊來溝通縣市政府有沒有準備好那剛剛有講到是說可能還不一定會做這樣的一個說明會但我想請教我們如果說真的有印度移工進來的話有沒有算過說哪些縣市政府會優先那些移工會比較去那些縣市政府"},{"start":450.902,"end":465.101,"text":"這個 這個看到到時候雇主的選擇啊不是啊 我想問的是你其實很簡單你完全可以了解你只要做一個研究你去調查現在營造業跟製造業到底主要的"},{"start":466.141,"end":467.883,"text":"所以那幾個縣市是不是就重點應該先說明的地方"},{"start":487.816,"end":487.996,"text":"這您認同嗎?"},{"start":513.527,"end":522.47,"text":"可以啦 這個部分我覺得因為我們後續我們後續會跟到底哪個縣市報告委因為目的事業主管機關是在內政部營建署但是勞動部主管的就是這個相關勞動的問題所以這也是為什麼他會問你嘛不是 委員 我們是負責說"},{"start":536.875,"end":539.819,"text":"部長你們不是只是開放了一個之後後續的問題不管是社會問題相關水土不服適應問題或是等等的問題都丟給其他的部會"},{"start":552.675,"end":556.939,"text":"所以這是為什麼本席才會講是說甚至你的問題有可能是丟給地方政府所以我們既然不要丟給地方政府是不是就應該勞動部先找地方政府來溝通看到底地方政府準備好或是說地方政府說明會他們應該要事先做什麼準備來因應未來有可能進來"},{"start":574.536,"end":588.149,"text":"資訊會議報告委員我們資訊會議會邀請那包括我們的後續的工作層級會議各部會我們了解缺工狀況比如說如果我們能夠從營建署這邊知道說每個縣市部長最後一句話啦這樣請教你什麼時候會開這個說明會資訊會議什麼時候會開三月要開過一次找了哪幾個縣市政府"},{"start":596.719,"end":598.22,"text":"在開放印度移工前一定要開這樣可以嗎?可以啊 這沒有問題"},{"start":624.415,"end":637.1,"text":"開放印度移工進來之前一定要跟縣市政府尤其是重點縣市政府開諮詢會說明會這樣可以這沒問題好謝謝部長好謝謝洪孟楷委員"}]}},{"id":"149420","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149420","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f33a83b864699051a1e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a6f2c8319dc9f7edc15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"12:53:53 - 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謝謝那延續著過去我們的勞工立委吳玉仁委員他對勞工權益的一個關心那我也在這裡也向勞動部針對這次的一個專案我是希望部長就是我們您跟外交部對這件事情道歉但是我希望未來再引進這個印度勞工的話不要對我們國人或是本勞道歉那我想直接跟您就教好了"},{"start":44.983,"end":69.674,"text":"就是剛才像楊瓊英委員所提到的小額還目前來講有沒有針對這個數字可以想過之後再做一個回答?現在我心理上還沒有確定因為要開過工作成績會議我才能夠得到的答案一直都是工作會議那我再接著就教一下部長目前來講在民進黨執政期間105年到113年移工人數大概增加了多少人?"},{"start":71.325,"end":97.171,"text":"一百零六到一百一十一百零六到一百一十三年這八年的期間移工增加了多少人大概增加了差不多有十萬有沒有差不多十萬左右我跟你講是十六萬人從五十九萬增加到七十五萬還既增加了十六萬人所以平均每年是增加了兩萬人那我想請教一下那在未來的四年會再增加八萬人嗎"},{"start":99.07,"end":123.481,"text":"目前的話就是說缺口啦齁這個產業的缺口那人數會不會增加這麼多當然就是靠看到時候的狀況看到時候的狀況但是過去的8年增加16這個有增加但是其實委員那個疫情我是降低好沒關係但是本額是增加那所以說在你的小額的部分是有可能會增加逐年會增加到2萬人嗎如果產業有需求的話"},{"start":124.361,"end":143.091,"text":"報告委員不是這樣子就是說我們增加一個來源國是給雇主多一個選擇啦那跟那個人數增減沒有什麼太大的關係沒關係這個人數增減過去的8年增加16萬嘛那未來增加多少印度會增加多少現在沒有答案增加的就是看我們產業缺工的情況"},{"start":143.251,"end":170.202,"text":"好那沒關係那我直接跟您就叫產業缺工因為我禮拜一在質詢工程會的時候因為營建業相關的外勞的補充他們說那時候勞動部是沒有找主委這邊討論過如何國家重大工程要來去做這個補充勞動力的部分那當然本勞跟外勞是存在著競爭關係我們都知道那我想請教一下在這一次的印度勞工進來台灣是要補充的是哪一個類型的勞工"},{"start":170.982,"end":195.339,"text":"各個類型都有可能我們以開放的我再講說以開放的類型都有可能營造、製造、農業那我直接就就好了就是說那在長照的部分要不要市長補充回答一下在長照的部分是不是主要會針對印度的勞工來去補充看衛務部他們這邊的盤點人力的需求"},{"start":199.702,"end":226.653,"text":"我們基本上就是目前比較需要充實人力的是在我們的住宿型機構那所以現在住宿型機構也配合勞動部這邊已經有修法放寬可以把護理人員都納入那現階段市長其實你們的業務報告我全部都看完了那5月的我也看完了那在長照服務法104年5月三讀通過但是這個案子長照服務法則規約在立院擋了10年"},{"start":227.853,"end":245.304,"text":"他其實過去民進黨在野的時候他因為怕移工進入長照體系啊其實這個部分是那時候組黨的主要原因啊那我沒關係那目前來講的話移工如果要進入長照體系來去解決這個就是住宿型長照機構不足能力的問題那當然說要有整體規劃那我還是期待"},{"start":248.286,"end":267.831,"text":"那如果說在這個部分還是要注重到本勞的權益不然目前來講在勞動部許多指訓的部分針對長照還有許多從學生培養到未來的住宿型的人力那實際上並沒有辦法有效的銜接那再用外勞來去補充的話那其實對於本勞來講尤其是學生來講又是一大衝擊"},{"start":268.931,"end":289.528,"text":"那同時在這個日本來講他們在這個所謂的住宿型的這個人力啊長照人力來講他們日本的做的是不錯那所以說他們也不一定要再引用外籍那所以本席還是希望在引進這印度移工的部分啊那不僅是逃逸的部分還是要去做一個檢討因為目前失言勞工是8萬啊"},{"start":290.709,"end":291.529,"text":"好,我們謝謝游浩委員的質詢。"}]}},{"id":"149419","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149419","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f660e408771a4197e1e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a66a1f6f98b4a2bf775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"12:45:21 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實我感覺其實大家"},{"start":79.615,"end":103.3,"text":"反而是台灣的移工政策的制度根本的制度的問題大家有疑慮的反而是這件事情那現在台灣社會在引進外籍勞工其實真的跟過去不太一樣我想我知道勞工部這幾年其實在這個政策上面其實遇到很多困難跟挫折其實我覺得有一個很大的原因其實是社會的期待跟過去其實不一樣"},{"start":105.72,"end":129.651,"text":"我必須很誠實的說我覺得現在其實有很多關於移工政策最根本的原因其實是我們政府其實承擔的太少這個承擔的太少其實以至於其實有很多引進移工以後後面該擔的責任就落到僱主這一端僱主如果他擔不起他就會把這個責任希望能夠轉嫁給仲介"},{"start":130.868,"end":131.268,"text":"主要我在想齁這個"},{"start":160.764,"end":171.369,"text":"因為在救福法的規定移工的照顧管理基本上是雇主的責任但我講這個不是說政府就可以免責所以政府應該在如何讓整個"},{"start":173.377,"end":199.012,"text":"部長我等一下會跟你討論這個問題但我要說的事情我其實可以舉幾個例子來跟你說其實現在很多僱主跟移工兩方其實都有一些抱怨跟不滿意的地方是我們在移工相關的業務上面的辦理其實行政上面其實是非常非常複雜的部長你有沒有自己親自辦過相關的業務自己親自我自己沒有提出申請走過你有沒有自己親自辦過但我是一直要求同仁簡化"},{"start":203.196,"end":220.974,"text":"這方面其實我們看到韓國其實已經全面數位化了其實我們台灣也有派員去做韓國去做考察但到目前為止我們還是沒有做好這個簡化的流程跟統合數位化的程度還是相當低還有很多工作其實是沒有完成的我們台灣現在移工的人數70幾萬人對不對75萬人"},{"start":224.06,"end":247.185,"text":"這麼多的人數如果我們業務還是用這個龐雜複雜的方式在進行我們可以想像有多少行政成本必須花在這事情上面所以部長我第一個還是要要求至少就政府可以做的事情上面我們現在到底有多少的文書作業文件的程序其實是有空間可以整合可以統合可以簡化的這部分不能順應民眾不管是雇主端或者是移工端的要求嗎可以嗎"},{"start":247.725,"end":247.965,"text":"其實我們現在70萬、75萬一"},{"start":266.286,"end":291.093,"text":"移工在臺灣其實他遇到各種狀況我知道現在我們的勞發署或者相關各地行政這個地方政府其實有點疲於奔命也沒有辦法來去營運我舉一個例子給你聽這是一個陳情的案件來找我部長你可以看這是他寫給我們的陳情信這個情境是這樣家庭看護工他突然中風了怎麼辦"},{"start":292.95,"end":308.077,"text":"我跟大家跟部長說不管是我們的僱主其實真的是無能為力的狀況部長看一下這封誠心信這是僱主寫給我們的僱主的爸爸中風所以他請了一個外籍看護來照顧這個爸爸後來移工中風了"},{"start":309.099,"end":328.396,"text":"所以他的仲介就跟僱主說最簡單不用擔責任的方法就是把這個移工丟回去他的母國就好了部長你同不同意這樣做你不同意對不對部長如果你不同意接下來他開始要來請求臺灣的政府相關的協助的時候對不起他求助無門"},{"start":330.387,"end":358.971,"text":"他去找地方的社會局地方社會局沒辦法給他幫忙找了勞工局勞工局沒辦法給他幫忙他說我爸爸就是一個中風的人我自己家裡的狀況也不好我要怎麼來去承擔這件事情對不起但是政府沒有給予相關的資源能夠讓他去處理所以我們變成是逼著可能逼著這個僱主你就必須用最廉價最簡單的方法把這移工直接丟回他的母國所以當然台灣可能就會承受在國際上面承受很大的罵名說把移工當作免洗塊"},{"start":361.768,"end":374.839,"text":"部長這就是我說的我們的政府對於責任的承擔太少了最後這個案例是我的辦公室一個一個打電話才把這些相關資源能夠串接起來但我們75萬名的移工每個事情都能靠立委辦公室這樣打嗎部長你覺得呢這個部分我們再來做一些檢討做一些制度的規劃看怎麼樣對一些"},{"start":386.021,"end":415.359,"text":"部長很明顯這些移工在臺灣除了勞動力提供以外他們還是一個人這個人有各種社會性的需求如果我們沒有辦法把這些需求有一個責任擔起來的話只是丟給仲介仲介用最廉價最低成本的方式來處理的話就會衍生很多社會的問題這些社會的問題就會現在讓大家可能看似對印度移工可是其實他不信任的是我們整體的移工制度所以造成的亂象跟憂慮的我覺得很部分的源頭就是來自於這個地方"},{"start":416.019,"end":431.641,"text":"所以部長這是我剛剛跟你說政府應該要在這裡面承擔更多的責任不是把責任丟給雇主一層一層的轉嫁下去這樣是沒有解的這樣民眾對於移工制度是不會有信心的遇到大大小小的問題也一樣會求助無門的"},{"start":432.827,"end":457.023,"text":"部長這是我希望我要請部長我時間不夠了但我要請部長是不是可以針對這個移工的在除了他勞動以外的社會資源的網絡我覺得我們應該有一個檢討跟規劃我們沒有這些支持的資源沒有支持的中心的時候這種事情一再的發生亂象就是會讓大家很有疑慮衍生這一次大家看到這相關的問題"},{"start":458.044,"end":458.805,"text":"我希望部長跟老法署"},{"start":480.367,"end":480.467,"text":"接下來我們請"}]}},{"id":"149418","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149418","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f21854be54b8d555e52d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a6f242ee52a0981f745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:41:20 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部長本期有注意到說侯友宜市長日前有講說有跟您溝通討論包括說巴黎清軌及地方的建設是不是有見過面討論過那有見過面那目前不管是我們新北地區或說整個臺北地區其實有幾個重大公共建設我們也都需要持續的推動所以感謝剛剛我們這邊鐵道局承諾說兩個月內要召開這個相關的一個討論我想先請教"},{"start":40.899,"end":56.708,"text":"不管是巴黎、輕軌目前那天討論跟侯友宜市長這邊講的怎麼樣?對,巴黎、輕軌因為在國外的審查意見是認為淡海二期要先做所以我們現在是優先審查那個淡海二期淡海二期是什麼部分?"},{"start":57.761,"end":62.945,"text":"藍海線二期藍海線二期跟巴黎輕軌其實是兩個不同的建設啊?都是巴黎輕軌嗎?沒有錯?藍海線二期什麼時候可以評估確認"},{"start":89.031,"end":109.511,"text":"這也講了非常久了我們這個月會召開部裡面的審查委員會這月會召開部裡面的審查會議另外有泰坂輕軌因為武泰輕軌在之前行政院長也大動作的到我們地方去講說通過可行性評估但其實我們認為說更重要地方需求是泰坂輕軌泰山道板橋的泰坂輕軌"},{"start":112.575,"end":138.584,"text":"現在應該是可行性現在是新北市政府市府要送可行性研究要進來我們部內嘛是的,鐵道局已經召開過研商的會議那現在請新北市政府在做報告的修正當中他可行性提出來了啦我們給他一個初步意見比如說中間有談到一些支線有些委員是提到支線看他要不要能放放進考慮等等的我們給他一些意見讓他在修正報告中好"},{"start":139.344,"end":155.191,"text":"本席為什麼今天提到這麼重要就是不管是巴黎輕軌不管是泰坂輕軌不管是剛剛講的林口龜山輕軌或者是甚至我們現在講在國道上面有林口交流道、五谷交流道都已經在施工那本席也非常關心圓山交流道什麼時候施工"},{"start":155.891,"end":185.062,"text":"改善工程這都是非常重要最主要我們要看的是這一整個都是一個大型生活圈台北260萬人新北400萬人桃園200多萬人基隆40萬人所以北北基桃1000萬人這都是我們中央必須要努力的方向所以當然這都是需要來做的但是本席昨天看到這業務報告我也非常的生氣我想部長本席生氣的點你有看到嗎"},{"start":186.195,"end":208.055,"text":"媒體上有沒有看到你說那個陶吉毅的檢討沒有進去因為這個報告早就印好了所以您問我建議所以早就印好就不能改部長我建議你現在不要嬉皮笑臉因為這個是國人最影響最深我相信從早上到現在已經有非常多交通委員會委員在跟您要求"},{"start":210.05,"end":231.593,"text":"報告是禮拜三這個是上禮拜召委牌的專案報告但是大家國人都在看你第一天進來到國會拿出什麼樣的態度交通部用什麼樣的立場來去面對現在影響到國人那麼多問題的狀況而桃園機場在這一次我們講說為什麼大家會那麼的憤怒就是因為他不是一個天災啊"},{"start":232.634,"end":253.49,"text":"沒有天氣因素沒有因為說暴風雨沒有因為說大霧完完全全是一個人禍所以造成說調配不靈或是整個大塞機的狀況那這樣塞機的狀況不是我們事先預排的嗎是啊過去有沒有稅修過有啊那為什麼過去稅修不會發生這樣的情況"},{"start":255.607,"end":281.969,"text":"今天早上,對,各位委員報告我不是的意思,就是報告出來但是我有談到今天大部分的委員都在問這個問題我們也做過很多答覆我想請教,一個月內會有懲處的報告那有沒有包括有人要負責下台?有沒有政治責任?我們初步是這個由我們行政司做一個評估有沒有政治責任嗎?"},{"start":283.513,"end":308.625,"text":"我們現在在問的就是說完完全全這一個事件就是人禍因為沒有天氣沒有任何不好的情況如果今天有大霧大風沒有那預想就是沒有超前部署嘛那有沒有政治責任還是一個月後大家也忘了反正現在媒體有其他的焦點關心那塞車塞機也已經過了"},{"start":310.595,"end":334.967,"text":"有沒有政治責任有沒有人要負政治責任我想政治責任當然是政務官包括我都要負啦但是就是說這整個的流程也包括到很多這個相關的主管是不是在處理這件事情有警覺性這個事我想是不是您自己也講了嘛這一次最重要的就是因為大家沒有看重嘛沒有警覺嘛所以才造成那麼大問題嘛是不是會來懲處然後這個一個月內會跟大家做一個報告部長"},{"start":341.24,"end":354.674,"text":"你覺得你的懲處讓國人能夠接受嗎來我再問啦你如果說要這樣的話那我再請教這一次塞機事件造成的民眾航空公司損失有多大"},{"start":356.46,"end":382.541,"text":"現在大概有總共差不多快700架有大概47%是影響現在我現在請他們講我想問我們到現在也已經三天了我們有沒有去算過說這一次因為塞機事件不管是航班的調度不管是旅客的轉機沒有轉上不管是航空公司油料的問題到最後這一次的塞機事件影響有多大損失有多少"},{"start":383.775,"end":390.839,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們正在要跟航空公司來做統計那這些資料我們現在還沒有還沒有統計出來所以都還沒有已經幾天了什麼時候會算出來"},{"start":397.632,"end":402.176,"text":"我們下個禮拜會跟航空公司做這個部分做詳細的討論那目前已經在延長當中所以不覺得太慢了嗎"},{"start":416.34,"end":416.881,"text":"目前還沒有統計出來"},{"start":447.191,"end":461.049,"text":"為什麼本席會講說到底是麻木還是白木就是因為覺得在這件事情上面態度沒有展現出來你在事前沒有準備好 這不是第一次的稅休 沒有準備好態度"},{"start":462.281,"end":488.077,"text":"然後你現在所有人大家炸鍋之後到目前為止還不知道說到底損失了多少好像逃過新的鬼換言兩三天過了還有部長那天還可以下令是說我們稅收這是安全的問題嘛你可以下令說提早16個小時加速那我們國內也會問啊如果說可以提早16個小時那當初明顯就是有放寬嘛那如果說沒有放寬那你提早16個小時有沒有安全的疑慮"},{"start":489.212,"end":505.819,"text":"所以怎麼講都認為說在這件事情上面沒有展現出專業變成是民怨沸騰的時候趕快大官再出來然後用人為的狀況來去做一個調配那現在後續這一個事件到底還有影響多廣多深也不知道"},{"start":506.874,"end":520.306,"text":"反正認定的心態就是今天來被罵一罵媒體兩三天之後不報導了然後一個月後我們就看到網站上面出來一個新聞稿或出來一個公告有人寄大過有人寄警告"},{"start":521.548,"end":540.133,"text":"就這樣沒有任何政治責任這是不是就是現在政府要面對的問題的處理態度看起來就是啊我們現在已經徹底在做檢討跟改善嘛也徹底檢討改善是你嘴巴講但是國內沒有感受到我到目前為止我問的這些問題你們都答不出來"},{"start":541.133,"end":564.413,"text":"這叫什麼檢討?這叫什麼改善?不是答不出來我們現在有時間讓他們跟比如說培長的部分要跟航空公司來討論嘛然後標準座位程序他們也在下禮拜會把整個標準座位程序做一個優化提出來我想這部分都有一個時間那我跟委員報告也不是說我們這件事情把它今天當一天這個是很嚴肅的事情"},{"start":564.753,"end":589.674,"text":"當然很嚴肅所以這是為什麼本席來講是說到底是麻木還是白木如果說這件事情真的那麼嚴肅我說實在今天你業務報告裡面多一句話多兩句話認為是說真的沒有我們還有做不出的地方要檢討要改進我常常講交通問題沒有最好只有更好就是因為大家都是用路人大家都是在交通運具上面會使用到的人沒有誰比較大"},{"start":590.967,"end":617.181,"text":"你會用飛機會用飛機你會用馬路會用馬路所以交通問題大家一起面對解決但是你們通篇的業務報告不管是口頭報告、書面報告都是只有好棒棒也不會這樣你這樣子國人要怎麼信任你說實在部長主席已經站起來了我很誠摯的講在整個民進黨政府部會裡面我覺得你還算是有專業的人"},{"start":618.752,"end":631.759,"text":"很誠摯地講我覺得你還算是有肩膀的人如果比起其他民怨來講民怨部會來講但是本期真的不希望這件事情會變成是壓垮你最後一根稻草"},{"start":632.932,"end":652.72,"text":"我也希望民進黨政府有多一些有一點專業的人有一點肩膀的人有一點想要平衡地方發展發展建設的人而不是都充斥著酬庸或是充斥著不專業的一個部會首長所以這是本席給你最大的一個忠告好好把這件事情處理好並且我們國人都在看到底你這件事情要怎麼善後"},{"start":653.4,"end":664.288,"text":"我這樣好不好,就是全部處理完,我們會做一個對外的報告請王部長跟洪委員接下來可以再私下對話好,OK,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149417","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149417","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f5e6b16039bae0c9352d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a655a5d72cd9383ff75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"12:27:08 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help，確實臺灣面臨一個國際搶人荒、缺人荒的此時此刻，我們就是要趕快來做嘛！"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以這個問題意識如果導到國家競爭力，我們不只跟時間賽跑，我們更跟世界各國在競爭，所以我要支持這個政策勇敢去做。","好，下一頁。進入我的主題，我可能因為時間沒有辦法講，我其實有十幾頁的PPT，但是我也想藉這個時間釐清一下，有一些委員在詢問說這個政策是不是急就章……"],["許部長銘春：不是。"],["吳委員思瑤：感覺聽起來好像是昨天求婚，今天就結婚的感覺。"],["許部長銘春：沒有，報告委員，我們其實有經過3年的討論。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。就我所了解跟掌握的資訊，這樣一個與印度的磋商從109年就開始談了，談了3年多了，所以絕對不是急就章、快速的欠缺評估，這個您要大聲講啊！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：第二個，我們現在的程序是簽了MOU，它就是一個意向書的簽訂、換文，未來的工作事項正要開始。我不曉得大家有沒有看日劇，我是日劇迷，劇中主角，都會說：請你洪申翰以結婚為前提跟我交往，好嗎？」這個意思就是類似MOU，就是我們有這個意向，以結婚為前提來交往，但是不是明天就結婚啊！交往之後，我們的生活習慣、我們的價值觀、我們的各項，方方面面，攸關人生大事，都是在這個交往的過程要去慢慢推敲，我用這個例子來換在這個事情，MOU只是just beginning，雙方有這個意願，我們有以結婚為前提來交往的意願。但是未來你們要進行的工作會議，謝謝各委員，也非常謝謝王育敏召委今天排了這個專案報告，提出了很多建設性的提醒，未來擴大在工作會議的過程，跟專家、學者及社福團體，所有stakeholders的對話都要積極綿密地展開嘛！所以它沒有急就章，它也不是今天MOU明天就上路，這個要對社會講清楚。我們還有很充裕的時間，包括您剛剛回答楊瓊瓔委員的，今年底你可能都說得保守，也許明年比較有可能，換言之，我們還有一年的準備期，可以收攏社會各界更多元的意見。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：第三個，這個政策的上路有不透明嗎？我們依據就業服務法裡頭，只要是政策決定開放就要公告周知，所以我們透過公告周知之後，這個政策即將上路就可以來匯聚大家對話的可能，所以我認為如果有委員會誤會你們是不透明的政策跟決策，我要替你們大聲地講：並非如此！","當然也有委員提案說是不是這個政策到各縣市去開公聽會什麼的，其實我翻閱了我們過去開放的其實是6個來源國，包括印尼、泰國、越南、菲律賓，乃至於蒙古，乃至於馬來西亞，其實是沒有什麼縣市公聽會的。一來，國跟國之間這種涉外的事物，本來就不會到縣市去開公聽會嘛！對不對？但是謝謝各委員共同的提案，就是未來這個工作會議在進一步落實的同時，各個stakeholders大家要去對話，這個非常非常地重要。","好，因為我的PPT大概都沒時間講，主席，您可以坐下一下下嗎？"],["主席：你要質詢，可是後面很多委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：循序漸進，穩健務實。好，下一頁，我有講到就好。這一頁我想講一下，我們也要清楚對外界來說明，外籍移工的適用法規是一樣嚴格的，過去的6個國家如此，未來的印度亦然，開放印度移工並沒有放鬆任何現行的法規。我們有7個法規要適用，包括外國人就業管理條例、勞動基準法、外國勞動人力供應管理條例、就業服務法、全民健康保險法、社會安全法以及外國工作者保險條例，換言之，我們是同樣規格在管控，這個也要對社會說清楚講明白。","好，下一頁。我就問最後這個題目好了，因為我長期在教育及文化委員會，我對於「印度移工就是低階人力嗎？」這樣的社會命題，我一定要大大地為印度移工撕掉這個不合理、涉及歧視的標籤，去掉這個污名化。我過去監督的部會，其中一個叫做中研院，有超過300名的印度博士生在中研院工作，我這裡show出來的是中研院資訊科學研究所的一位印度研究員，他現在其實是一個網紅，大家可以去看看他這個影片，在臺灣工作的1萬名印度人其實遍及臺灣頂尖大學攻讀工程學、生物科學領域碩博士，甚至在業界都是最先進的高階人力。而且除了在學研機構，在竹科或南港軟體園區擔任工程師的印度菁英人士大有人在，所以我們臺灣是一個最包容、最多元、最擁抱各國移民，尤其是各種來臺灣就業創業的人，我們是這樣一個偉大的、包容的國家，對於任何一個未來可能成為我們國家很重要的人力補給也好，專業的協力也好，我們都要給予臺灣人應當有的友善。","謝謝主席多給我時間，因為真的時間很有限，我希望這個政策透過更多元的對話，啟動相關當事人更專業的各項研議會議，我們讓一個好的政策勇敢地上路，你們在說明政策也要大聲講，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好！謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員。","接下來請洪申翰委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度\n移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.47221875,"end":14.644718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.68659375,"end":22.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.74534375,"end":19.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.719718750000002,"end":20.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.989093750000002,"end":26.204093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.11096875,"end":28.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.16971875,"end":30.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.40159375,"end":78.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.86284375,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.10721875,"end":113.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.49846875,"end":117.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.44721875,"end":132.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.37721875,"end":136.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.20784375,"end":151.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.87221875,"end":160.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.68096875,"end":177.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.23221875000002,"end":170.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.65721875,"end":200.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.09659375,"end":205.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.92721875,"end":205.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.23096875000002,"end":205.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.46721875,"end":217.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.48409375,"end":205.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.68034375000002,"end":236.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.56346875000003,"end":238.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.30159375000002,"end":240.12846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.43221875,"end":253.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.89846875,"end":258.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.09596875,"end":262.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.16284375000004,"end":277.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.74284375,"end":284.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.99971875,"end":281.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.71221875000003,"end":288.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.03221875,"end":312.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.69096875,"end":313.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.36159375,"end":330.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.96659375,"end":331.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.16909375,"end":338.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.03284375000004,"end":341.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.18846875,"end":351.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.68909375000004,"end":352.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.24159375000005,"end":372.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.63721875000005,"end":359.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.72159375,"end":359.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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help確實臺灣面臨一個國際搶人荒缺人荒的此時此刻我們就是要快點來做嘛所以這個問題意識如果導到國家競爭力我們不只跟時間賽跑我們更跟世界各國在競爭"},{"start":133.476,"end":133.936,"text":"發言委員．吳思瑤"},{"start":160.786,"end":176.023,"text":"就我所瞭解跟掌握的資訊這樣一個跟印度的磋商從109年就開始談了談了3年多了所以絕對不是急救章快速的欠缺評估這個您要大聲講啊"},{"start":177.705,"end":198.981,"text":"第二個,我們現在的程序是簽了MOU,它就是一個意象書的簽訂、換文,未來的工作事項正要開始。我不曉得大家有沒有看日劇喔,這個日劇我是日劇迷啊,都會說,請你洪森翰,以結婚為前提,跟我交往好嗎?"},{"start":201.518,"end":204.6,"text":"這個意思就是類似MOU就是我們有這個意象以結婚為前提我們來交往但是不是明天就結婚啊交往之後我們的生活習慣我們的價值觀我們的各項"},{"start":218.732,"end":236.335,"text":"方方面面 攸關人生大事 都是在這個交往的過程 要去慢慢推銷 也就是我把他用這個例子來換在這個事情 MOU只是just the beginning 雙方有這個意願 我們有以結婚為前提的交往的意願"},{"start":237.605,"end":258.31,"text":"太沉重了但是但是未來你們要進行的工作會議而且謝謝各委員也是非常謝謝王玉敏教委今天排了這個專案報告提出了很多建設性的提醒未來擴大在工作會議的過程跟專家學者社福團體所有的stakeholder的對話都要積極綿密的展開嗎"},{"start":263.271,"end":283.329,"text":"所以說他沒有急救章他也不是今天MOU明天就上路就要對社會講清楚我們還有很充裕的時間包括您剛回答楊瓊英委員的今年底你可能都說的保守也許明年比較有可能換言之我們還有一年的準備期可以收攏社會各界更多元的意見"},{"start":284.79,"end":311.247,"text":"第二個呢 這個政策的上路有不透明嗎我們依據就業服務法裡頭只要是政策決定開放就要公告周知所以我們透過公告周知之後把這個政策即將上路就可以來匯聚大家對話的可能所以我認為如果有委員會誤會你們是不透明的政策跟決策我要替你們大聲的講"},{"start":313.071,"end":335.786,"text":"並非如此那當然也有委員提案說是不是這個政策到各縣市去開公聽會什麼的其實我翻閱了我們過去開放的其實是6個來源國啦我們的印尼、泰國、越南、菲律賓乃至於蒙古乃至於馬來西亞其實是沒有所謂什麼縣市公聽會的一來國跟國之間的這種涉外的事務本來就不會到縣市去開公聽會嘛"},{"start":342.23,"end":342.33,"text":"主席"},{"start":360.271,"end":364.637,"text":"循序漸進、穩健務實好下一頁我講到這種好這一頁我想講一下我們要清楚對外界來說明外籍移工的適用法規是一樣嚴格的過去的6個國家如此未來的印度亦然"},{"start":377.672,"end":401.428,"text":"開放印度移工並沒有放鬆任何現行的法規,我們有7個法規要適用。外國人就業管理條例、勞動基準法、外國勞動人力供應管理條例、就業服務法、全民健康保險法、社會安全法以及外國工作者保險條例。換言之,我們是同樣規格在管控。這個也要對社會說清楚、講明白。"},{"start":409.614,"end":429.088,"text":"因為我長期加入教育文化委員會我對於印度移工就是低階人力嗎這樣的社會命題我一定要大大的為印度移工撕掉這個不合理涉及歧視的標籤去掉這個汙名化我監督的過去監督的部會其中一個叫做中研院"},{"start":430.129,"end":457.691,"text":"中研院就有超過300名的印度博士生在中研院工作我這裡秀出來的是中研院資訊科學研究所的一位印度的研究員他現在其實是一個網紅大家可以去看看他這個影片在台灣工作的1萬名印度人其實遍及台灣頂尖大學、工讀工程學、生物科學領域、碩博士甚至在業界都是最先進的高階人力"},{"start":458.772,"end":473.53,"text":"而且呢除了在學研機構在竹科或南港軟體工程的園區擔任工程師的印度精英人士大有人在所以我們臺灣是一個最包容最多元最擁抱"},{"start":474.531,"end":479.556,"text":"各國移民尤其是各種來臺灣就業創業的人我們是這樣一個偉大的包容的國家對於任何一個未來可能成為我們國家很重要的人力補給也好專業的協力也好我們都要給予臺灣人應當有的友善"},{"start":494.071,"end":512.527,"text":"那謝謝主席給我多的時間因為真的時間很有限我希望這個政策透過更多元的對話啟動更專業的相關當事人的各項的研議的會議我們讓一個好的政策勇敢的上路阿您在社民進程也要大聲講這樣好不好好謝謝主席謝謝部長好謝謝吳思瑤"}]}},{"id":"149415","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149415","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fad4259d85e6807761e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a606a9cdfe7fa3d36a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:28:54 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現在主席本席楊 邀請部長好 請部長"},{"start":10.947,"end":40.947,"text":"楊瓊瓔"},{"start":41.608,"end":55.325,"text":"對於個人認知,你不太可能會講出這樣子的話語。為什麼呢?說實在,我第一個,我先講,我沒有任何歧視的意思。那你腦中沒有歧視,怎麼會有講出這樣子的膚色?"},{"start":59.19,"end":85.515,"text":"因為印度移工引進那之前有些社會的疑慮那認為說彼此的適應融合那你講說他的膚色就不會疑慮嗎不是我是說彼此的適應融合的問題其實剛剛會講到這個是就是說當初只是說如何讓大家能夠盡快的促進融合跟適應所以才會有這樣的那個但我也覺得說這個發言真的不是很土式所以我也表示歉意那之後我也會對這些問題會更加的"},{"start":88.595,"end":112.54,"text":"你也表示歉意我也希望他是一個語物不是頭腦裡頭的觀念絕對不可以我們實質來討論因為目前我們就是泰國、越南、菲律賓跟印尼四個國家引進外籍移工這20年來我們可以說是首度簽訂第5個移工的來源國所以在這樣的一個"},{"start":115.821,"end":131.393,"text":"這個情況之下本席要請教在2月16號我們以視訊方式來簽署了簽署了這個MOU那到底我們什麼時候可以引進這個這個印度移工那引進的額度跟他的專長到底是什麼呢"},{"start":133.954,"end":161.832,"text":"報告委員我們2月16視訊簽署2月26完整換文那接下來我們會請我們會報行政院來備查流程你們做本期要請問的什麼時候可以正式引進這個報告委員這個恐怕還沒那麼快因為我們後面還有工作成績談議員這些都拭目以待耶但是委員那個MOUMOU是一個架構的所謂的還沒那麼快沒關係我們還是要照程序走那到底會什麼時候"},{"start":162.893,"end":186.806,"text":"有可能會進來?報告委員,至少也要半年、一年。為什麼?因為這個工作層級...今年底可不可能進來?今年底我不敢預料。為什麼本集會跟你討論這個議題呢?因為大家看到這個訊息,大家缺工,都很期待。那你認為今年底不可能,明年可不可能?"},{"start":187.509,"end":209.385,"text":"明年是有機會明年是有機會也不一定因為就是要看那個工作沒關係我們就實質討論因為有要怎麼處理沒有要怎麼處理你不要讓產業一個期待最後是落空的這樣不好嘛所以今年底不太可能明年底有可能但是不知道什麼時候是不是這樣解讀可以這麼說"},{"start":210.666,"end":224.079,"text":"可以到底是不是是這樣解讀那請問你們現在預計要可以引進多少移工數額報告委員數額還沒預計因為我要開看各數額還沒預計那專長有沒有預估就是看各到時候我們專長有沒有預估專長會看各業的需求"},{"start":236.47,"end":248.395,"text":"我們會簽我們一定有自己的期待才有辦法談判嘛那你預估我們希望能夠在明年的時候有可能會引進你希望可以引進多少?"},{"start":251.016,"end":266.469,"text":"原額目前我也要經過大家跟跨部會討論之後那基本上原額我們一開始不會太多啦會小規模但是因為我說多少我現在就是先小額的引進啦小額是多少?你的小額是小到多少?"},{"start":267.463,"end":290.471,"text":"要談,報告委員這個要談,這個不是我自己能夠決定部長你不用緊張,因為我們今天你一定緊張,因為你語射了,因為你要知道,我在跟人家討論的時候,你跟人家有一個主張,不是你可以決定OK,這大家可以了解,但是你一定要主張啊,你不可能你自己沒主張啊,我就是工作成績開完"},{"start":291.972,"end":310.251,"text":"我會有,大概了解,我有確診。你主張你的小兒,你竟然可以回答一個小兒,小兒是多少啦?小兒是多少?現在我沒有辦法回覆這個問題。那你所謂的小兒的定義是什麼?我的意思是說,就不會是很大量的引進啦。你的大量是多少?你的小兒又是多少?"},{"start":314.416,"end":328.21,"text":"部長,你還是語射啦,我跟你說,本期跟你討論,因為在這裡都錄音錄影,大家很期待,所以大家期待,那我們也清楚,作為過程﹖"},{"start":330.151,"end":349.296,"text":"聽清楚 這個過程必須要去談判但是我方也必須要有自己的方案你才有辦法討論 對不對你既然說出小兒小兒一定有你的數字當然你不願意說我也尊重你啦但是我要告訴你你工作會議要到什麼時候可以有一個方向出來你的工作會議要到什麼時候可以有一個方向出來工作會議現在沒有召開啊什麼時候要召開"},{"start":360.452,"end":360.612,"text":"請你把你預估要怎麼做"},{"start":379.765,"end":396.331,"text":"請你詳時資料給本席,你的時間流程表請列出來好不好我再請一個議題給你做功課目前我們逃逸外勞的累計人數已經達到8萬人那請問勞動部你要怎樣防治"},{"start":396.991,"end":397.431,"text":"報告委員．去年的"},{"start":423.732,"end":442.444,"text":"陶宇人數有降下來了因為這幾年主要是疫情移工進不來供需失調所以111年的失聯率特別高5.96你既然了解這個目前的現狀陶教的老闆很難過你要怎麼樣去防範請你詳細資料給本席好不好方案出來好不好這兩個議題你詳細資料給本席一個禮拜之內請將剛才本席所要的資料這兩項給本席"},{"start":453.832,"end":453.852,"text":"謝謝楊瓊瓔委員"}]}},{"id":"149414","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149414","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f0cbfff864aace02c1e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a646ee75522944e4f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"12:22:33 - 12:28:50","影片長度":"00:06:17","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":377,"end_time":"2024-03-06T12:28:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T12:22:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1288,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（12時22分）請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["李委員彥秀：部長好，好久不見！"],["許部長銘春：李委員好，好久不見。"],["李委員彥秀：回來委員會這個位置非常的熟悉，但是事實上，雖然我隔了4年才回到立法院，但是平常在基層的工會其實我們常碰到。"],["許部長銘春：是，謝謝委員。"],["李委員彥秀：所以就勞工的議題，其實李彥秀一直都長期地關心，我想部長你非常清楚。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["李委員彥秀：包括行政補助費，這一次我會繼續回來追，要再與時俱進，現在什麼都在漲。","第二點，今天主要的議題，談就安基金我想今天時間不夠，我希望在今年審決算的時候，我有機會再跟你好好地討論，但是整個就安基金的使用，其實跟今天的專案報告也非常有關係。我們先看一下我做的圖表，針對青年就業的問題，從你們今天提供的資料，青年就業的失業率其實沒有降低，看起來我們整體失業率好像有降低，但是青年的失業率整體來說，從110年到112年一樣是居高不下。","在這一次產業移工及社福移工的比例部分，我也看到在110年到112年之間，我們的產業移工及社福移工的比例，現在總共大概75萬左右，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對，是。"],["李委員彥秀：有將近50萬左右是產業的移工。"],["許部長銘春：是產工。"],["李委員彥秀：對。"],["許部長銘春：然後大概二十幾萬是……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我覺得現在各行各業很多都缺工，我並不認為移工政策不能討論，我覺得可以討論，但是我非常遺憾的是，在選前，包括今天印度移工政策，選前你否認說我們根本沒有談！事實上，當……"],["許部長銘春：我們有談，我只是說還沒簽啦！這個談的事情……"],["李委員彥秀：你說連一個影子都沒有，甚至在官方網站上說沒有這件事情，這是假訊息！"],["許部長銘春：不是、不是，那個是10萬移工是假訊息。一直在談這個，在衛環我都被問啦！我都說有在談。"],["李委員彥秀：所以部長，我覺得都可以談，但是這個移工政策必須好好更認真、更深刻地談，因為包括其他跨部會的合作，我們就要思考得非常清楚，不是說今天大家都在喊缺護理人員，那我們是不是下個階段護理人員也要用移工來做？就是說各行各業都缺工，但是跨部會對於移工政策長遠的規劃跟考慮是什麼，我覺得就要思考得非常清楚。","營造業的缺工我清楚，可能臺灣很少人要去做營造業這部分的勞工，所以我們需要移工，但是如果每一個只要是缺我們就用移工政策來補，我覺得勞動部就會變成移民署，你就不要叫勞動部。外面有人這樣子批評，所以我們應該要有一個短中長期的規劃跟思考，不是缺什麼就用移工補什麼。"],["許部長銘春：對，沒錯。"],["李委員彥秀：你認同我的說法嗎？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["李委員彥秀：好，部長，如果是這樣子的話，我覺得年輕世代對我們來說很重要，包括現在貧富差距越來越大，年輕人對於現在的失落感及低薪，心裡也覺得非常地受傷，這一塊長遠來說，所以我剛剛提到青年就業的問題，失業率的問題。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，青年失業率是逐年在降哦！這3年我從8.78%、8.38%降到去年8.01%，有在降，不是說逐年升高，這個數據我可以給委員。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，這個平均數……"],["許部長銘春：而且去年其實降到金融海嘯以來最低的，去年只有8.01%。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，去年113年……"],["許部長銘春：去年112年。"],["李委員彥秀：112年8.39%，20到24歲11.7%，25……"],["許部長銘春：8.01%。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我今天時間不多，我不知道你是不是因為這樣的數據就滿意，但是青年……"],["許部長銘春：我沒有滿意，繼續努力。"],["李委員彥秀：現在很多年輕人也是高薪低就，很多年輕人覺得我事實上可以領更高的薪水，但是我怕我領不到，我找不到工作做，所以我本來可以領3萬元的薪水，我可能兩萬八就去做；我領三萬五的薪水，我可能3萬元就去做，所以我覺得在媒合的工作上，還有包括在各個產業上，跨部會的合作很重要，你不能說我今天缺護理人員，護理人員下個階段我可能就要用移工政策去補，這樣外界就會批評，你乾脆改名叫移民署就好啦！","所以部長，我覺得你今天應該交代得更清楚，為什麼我說這個跟就安基金是連動的？如果說我們覺得護理人員很重要，譬如我舉一個例子，如何讓護理人員願意回到職場，生產完之後或者是休息一段時間之後願意回到職場，我們就安基金怎麼樣可以做更多的補助跟使用，我是舉一個例子。或者是照護人員，或者是托育的保母政策，這些可能現在也都缺工，那缺工我們應該怎麼樣用這些就安基金，教育也好，後面的津貼也好，在一段時間之後長期做更好的補助，讓他們願意再回到職場上。"],["許部長銘春：對，有。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得就安基金在短中長期你要有不同的做法，你才能說服社會大眾我今天這個移工政策確實不會衝擊到臺灣的勞工，我覺得這才有辦法去說服大家，否則人家會批評你勞動部變成移民署，你同意嗎？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["李委員彥秀：所以跨部會的合作很重要。因為今天時間不夠，我知道很多委員還要質詢，我就不占用大家的時間，但是我覺得這些議題你要做長遠的思考，才有辦法說服社會大眾，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢。接下來請楊瓊瓔委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度\n移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.949718750000001,"end":7.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.41784375,"end":9.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.012218750000002,"end":95.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.61971875,"end":14.239718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.41534375,"end":25.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.034093750000004,"end":34.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.41346875,"end":91.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.44659375,"end":98.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.02409375,"end":98.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.20971875000001,"end":102.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.03596875000001,"end":120.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.92346875000001,"end":128.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.02471875,"end":121.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.49221875,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.25159375000001,"end":128.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.87159375000002,"end":128.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.97284375,"end":130.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.53784375,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.65596875,"end":132.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.03534375,"end":145.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.11971875,"end":135.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.26971875,"end":156.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.79971875,"end":166.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.17784375000002,"end":168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請許部長"},{"start":12.028,"end":32.646,"text":"部長好,好久不見,回來這個委員會這個位子就非常的熟悉,但是事實上我們平常,雖然我隔了4年才回到立法院,但是平常我們在基層的工會其實我們常碰到,所以就勞工的議題,其實李彥秀一直都長期的關心,我想部長你非常清楚,無論行政補助費,這一次我會繼續回來追,要再與時俱進,現在什麼都在講。"},{"start":36.969,"end":58.341,"text":"第二點今天的主要的議題救安基金我想今天時間不夠另外我希望今年省決算的時候我有機會再跟你好好的討論但是整個救安基金的使用其實跟今天的專案報告也非常有關係我們先看一下我今天做的圖表青年就業的問題從你們今天提供的資料其實青年就業的失業率"},{"start":62.603,"end":88.243,"text":"其實沒有降低看起來我們整體失業率其實好像有降低但是新年的失業率其實整體來說從110年到112年其實一樣是居高不下那在這一次產業移工跟社福移工的比例的部分我也看到從110年到112年之間我們的產業移工跟我們現在的社福移工比例大概在"},{"start":88.763,"end":90.065,"text":"部長,我覺得現在各行各業很多都缺工,我並不認為說"},{"start":105.307,"end":116.66,"text":"移工政策不能做討論我覺得可以做討論但是我非常遺憾的是選前包括今年印度移工政策選前你說否認說我們根本沒有談事實上我們有談我只是說還沒簽啊"},{"start":121.407,"end":145.534,"text":"這個談的事情連一個影子都沒有甚至在官方網站上說沒有這件事情這是假訊息不是不是那是10萬的移工是假訊息一直在談這個所以部長我覺得都可以談但是這個政策移工政策就必須好好更認真更深刻的談因為包括其他跨部會的合作"},{"start":146.354,"end":167.812,"text":"我們就要思考得非常清楚我們不是說今天大家都喊說我們缺護理人員那我們是不是下個階段我們護理人員也要用移工來做就是說各行各業都缺工但是跨部會對於移工的政策長遠的規劃跟考慮是什麼我覺得就要思考得非常清楚營造業的缺工"},{"start":168.573,"end":194.878,"text":"我清楚可能台灣很少人要去做營造業這部分的勞工所以我們需要移工但是如果我們每一個都只要是缺我們就用移工政策來補我覺得勞動部就會變成移民署你就不要叫勞動部外面有人這樣子批評所以我們應該要有一個短中長期的規劃跟思考不是缺什麼我就移工補什麼"},{"start":195.798,"end":211.111,"text":"對沒錯你認同我的說法嗎是是部長如果是這樣子的話那我覺得年輕世代對我們來說很重要年輕世代包括現在貧富差距越來越大年輕人對於現在的失落感低薪也"},{"start":211.852,"end":214.274,"text":"昨年其實降到金融海嘯以來最低的"},{"start":240.576,"end":247.246,"text":"去年只有8.01部長去年113年去年1128.3920到24 11.76部長我今天時間不多我不知道你是不是因為這樣的數據就滿意"},{"start":258.119,"end":275.829,"text":"現在很多年輕人也是高薪他低就所以很多年輕人覺得我事實上我可以領更高的薪水但是我為了我怕我領不到我找不到工作做所以我本來可以領3萬的薪水我可能2萬8就去做我領3萬我的薪水我可能3萬就去做所以"},{"start":276.87,"end":289.349,"text":"我覺得在媒合的工作上還有包括在各個產業上跨部會的合作很重要你不能說我今天缺護理人員我護理人員下個階段我可能就要用移工政策來去補"},{"start":291.227,"end":307.038,"text":"這樣外界就會批評你就乾脆改名叫移民署就好啦所以部長我覺得你今天應該交代更新為什麼我說這個跟救安基金是聯動的如果說我們覺得護理人員很重要譬如我舉一個例子護理人員"},{"start":307.839,"end":325.175,"text":"如何讓護理人員願意回到職場生產完之後或者是休息一段時間之後願意回到職場我們救安基金怎麼樣可以做更多的補助跟使用我舉一個例子或者是照護人員或者是托育的保姆政策"},{"start":325.856,"end":338.791,"text":"這些可能現在都缺工那缺工我們應該怎麼樣用這些救安基金教育也好後面的津貼長期在一段時間之後長期做更好的補助讓他們願意再回到職場上"},{"start":340.714,"end":340.854,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":359.497,"end":360.118,"text":"接下來我們請楊瓊英委員進行質詢"}]}},{"id":"149413","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149413","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f92ed57b05b7b96d21e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a679c81dcb1283f79e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"12:14:15 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報告委員我覺得很多問題是這樣就是說可能因為我們辦座談有時候不是僱主來啦都是他裏面的職員來那回去有沒有"},{"start":319.991,"end":320.211,"text":"請勞動部長、外交部長：謝衣鳯"},{"start":349.241,"end":376.87,"text":"各地的分屬我們甚至就是企業有缺工需求我還請同仁去專人去服務客製化的來幫你媒合這個都可以做得到的會不會你在這個委員會講一套那在地方的沒有沒有沒有我跟你說你們根本不是這樣子嘛那我要求你們到我的那個因為我聽到的情況就不是如此嘛我剛跟鍾小七的座談就很多場"},{"start":378.991,"end":393.94,"text":"不過有一個問題就是我剛剛跟你講的部主真的不曉得因為來上課的人回去沒有講所以我只要我親自去講我都要求至少就是一定要總經理董事長沉寂了因為他們才會去了解他們關注的問題在哪裡啦"},{"start":394.7,"end":423.306,"text":"他才會知道說原來政府有那麼多措施所以委員如果你可以辦個辦個座談會我可以去講啊對因為工業區他們現在就是面臨的就是長期就是我如果啦今天的經濟成長是如此的情況下那未來我們國內有一些產業是本國的勞工不願意去從事的情況下那本來我們就應該要讓當然第一個我們是應該用就是我們的智慧的機械"},{"start":423.926,"end":439.356,"text":"來減低我們的勞動力的比例但是你短期的缺工問題還是要解決嘛你們中間的那些人員是不是應該要不要影響我們的質詢這樣子我們就是質詢沒有效率嘛是不是"},{"start":440.677,"end":459.027,"text":"好,對啊,沒關係,這個部分我會把相關的資料給你,那有必要我也可以去跟業者座談,雙向溝通。那我們,因為您,我也交代發展署這邊去在您轄區的工業區再辦座談,邀請僱主來。"},{"start":461.929,"end":484.634,"text":"好,因為中小企業對於這個相關的法令那如果他們沒有辦法就是說得到進一步的瞭解的時候那對於我們國內的製造業以及相關的這個經濟成長就沒有辦法增加嘛,是不是那對於我們地方的發展也會受限啊,好不好好,謝謝好,謝謝謝衣鳯委員的質問"}]}},{"id":"149412","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149412","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fbd43340846c507928e47b20f39b04ac8f8ba9b0039caa7a6f3485a984313fecb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:19:08 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12:23:48","影片長度":"00:04:40","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":280,"end_time":"2024-03-06T12:23:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T12:19:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1271,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時19分）請主委。"],["主席：好，我們再請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：主委，你好。地方創生可以平衡城鄉差距、彌平南北失衡，不僅是南北失衡，東西失衡與離島失衡都算，它是均衡臺灣的一個重要政策。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：我想大家應該都很熟悉，政府這幾年來也是不遺餘力的投入很多資源。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：目前我們發覺到有一個平等的問題，國發會針對地方縣市的提案，基本上還是採取齊頭式競爭，也就是說，像我們嘉義縣可能要與桃園、臺中這種都會地區的直轄市一起競爭，但是不同的縣市，它的財政能力、它的人力多寡都會對提案產生影響。所謂的地方創生是要平衡各個區域的發展，但是這一個情況與地方創生的原旨是背離的，目前國發會有沒有朝實質的平等、分配正義的方向修正？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，它基本上比較像是由下而上，如果在地有需要，多的情況之下，它的提案會多，到目前為止來講，的確是偏鄉通過正在執行的案件比都會多，所以它不是齊頭式的每個縣市分配額度多少，不是這樣子，而是看地方年輕人或地方創生團隊準備好了，有什麼樣的想法提出來，不管是透過公所也好，或是直接向我們多元提案也好，只要我們認為這個是符合我們的原則，譬如它有在地的DNA、它長期在地方蹲點、它有共好、或是有什麼樣的在地連結、關係人口、有大的幫助，我們就會來支持，基本上是這個樣子。"],["陳委員冠廷：主委，我的意思應該是很清晰、很明確，我們的地方與其他都會區比較不同的並不是量的多或少，而是剛剛說的提案的人力資源，因為我們的人力本身就不足、財政也不足，在這樣的狀況之下，我們希望不是用齊頭式的方式，不要就是大家都提啊！反正有需求就……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：你提到的應該是配合款的部分，是嗎？"],["陳委員冠廷：對，我還是要強調，甚至很多縣府的同仁也向我們提過類似這樣的問題，我們是希望國發會可以本著均衡臺灣的立場給予協助。","此外，還要請教相關的法規，地方創生並沒有相關的母法？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：地方創生是一個方案。"],["陳委員冠廷：它是戰略計畫層級的政策宣示。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：行政院通過的一個戰略方案。"],["陳委員冠廷：未來國發會是不是能夠扮演更主動積極的角色，引導地方創生戰略方案？甚至是在法律層級母法的部分，是不是可以主動扮演更積極的角色？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：目前我們還是用方案來推動，現在看到的狀況還是有其階段性的成效，如果下一步真的需要一個法律作為支撐，地方創生3.0會牽涉到地方創生團隊實施地方創生的相關活動時，可能會有與一般法律產生扞格的地方，那個時候可能就要把這個法律稍微做一個解套。這個部分是否需要包一個專法出來，我想我們再研擬一下，但是我們現在還是採用協處的方式。"],["陳委員冠廷：如果法律沒有明顯的權責關係，集中指揮體系的情況之下，我認為很多很多的提案可能會胎死腹中，所以我還是希望未來可以研究一下，行政院版地方創生的相關母法，並擔任這個法律的主管機關，謝謝。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：這個我們來研擬。"],["陳委員冠廷：希望可以提供一些相關的研究報告給我們做為參考、做為未來的方向，謝謝主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請王美惠委員、王美惠、王美惠委員不在現場。","請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在現場。","請何欣純委員、何欣純、何欣純委員不在現場。","請游顥委員、游顥、游顥委員不在現場。","請馬文君委員、馬文君、馬文君委員不在現場。","請劉建國委員、劉建國、劉建國委員不在現場。","請林楚茵委員、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在現場。","請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在現場。","登記發言的委員除不在現場者之外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。另有委員邱志偉、王鴻薇所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未及答復的部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","林岱樺","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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12:15:46","影片長度":"00:10:31","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":631,"end_time":"2024-03-06T12:15:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T12:05:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":832,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時5分）謝謝主席，有請王部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長國材：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，在剛剛前面委員會中有十幾個委員，大家都談到桃園機場空中鬧熱滾滾，但我們恆春半島觀光業者的臉則是「青筍筍」，因為國內過年期間的國旅訂房率從媒體報導看來，普遍來講比起以往都偏低，而且房價高的負面新聞非常、非常多，尤其墾丁首當其衝，訂房率大概只有6成。針對這個現象，我想請教部長，對於整個恆春半島的觀光業有什麼樣的看法？"],["王部長國材：跟徐委員報告，等一下我再請署長補充。事實上，恆春半島的觀光在臺灣來說是不管國內或國際旅客都想去的地方。但在國境開放以後，很多人會選擇出國，現在出去大概比進來多1倍以上，的確有這樣的狀況。我想，第一點是對於觀光景點，包括旅宿業的輔導，我們也有一些景點建設計畫，比如說過去跟屏東縣政府有很多合作，就是在墾丁這邊的合作，包括大鵬灣等等，我們都持續加強。第二，一般民眾在選擇國旅或國外旅遊時，也是真的經過比較，比如說房價課題，還包括觀光景點部分。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，這部分我想是這樣……"],["王部長國材：我想，這部分我們一起努力，讓國旅吸引力提升這點更重要。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，根據我們所調的統計資料，發現一般民眾認為南部與東部房價普遍比中、北部更高，這樣的負面訊息一直在媒體上不斷露出，我想對業者不盡公平，因為整個南部的營運成本、物料成本相對比較高，在這部分交通部怎麼協助業者解決？"],["王部長國材：我過去講過一點，但是大家會覺得是不是……第一，我真的了解現在的旅館業因為離峰客人不多，都集中在尖峰，所以房價在尖峰會比較高，這也是基於經營成本與收入考量，這點我們可以理解。所以我們現在的想法是國際觀光客進來補離峰部分，補完以後，如果大家那時候真的都賺到錢──這是前提啦！未來要吸引更多人在國內旅遊，我們是不是再來討論一下，比如說旅館費用有沒有調整空間？但也不是全臺灣一起調整，應該是某一些業者的確有賺到錢，應該回饋給消費者，用這個方式討論。它現在的確變成一個課題，大家覺得價格怎麼那麼高，但是我知道旅宿業有其苦衷，就是成本真的很高，為了cover，就要在尖峰開比較高的價錢。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，網路上對於國旅訂房率偏低也有幾個熱烈討論的話題，包含缺工、包含國際旅客不來、包含原物料上漲、包含國內景點沒有吸引力，我想這些問題部裡應該要面對，這部分是不是請交通部在2個月之內提出完整配套措施？"],["王部長國材：好。我也請署長說明，因為他更熟，由他簡單向您報告一下。"],["周署長永暉：謝謝委員。我們之前拜會委員時也特別提到，其實我們希望能夠加大力道倡議南部的旅遊亮點，所以也希望能夠在今年做把2024年和2025年以雙年方式推動南臺灣觀光，怎麼樣把南臺灣的知性之旅或南臺灣這些亮點做一些串接。關於我們現在的看法，正好這兩天與22個縣市的觀光首長做了一些討論，可能有幾個部分一起來，就是希望加大南部這些亮點。其次在旅宿部分，包括雙東、也就是屏東與臺東，民眾確實都是假日比較會前往屏東與臺東，所以要研究怎麼擴大非假日旅宿、增加一些誘因，這些我們雙管齊下。另外在新南向部分，也透過小港機場把當做一個重點，希望能夠擴大東南亞民眾前來臺南、高雄、屏東，做這樣的搭配。"],["徐委員富癸：好，部長、署長，我們一起努力，我想業者也都願意配合，只是看政府在整個配套上、政策上怎麼釋出更多利多，業者這邊都願意全力配合。","另外我再請教部長，其實屏東除了墾丁之外，還有一個很重要的觀光景點叫做大鵬灣，大鵬灣在2019年辦了一場史上最美的臺灣燈會之後就面臨BOT廠商解約，後來交通部被監察院彈劾，又在2022年9月宣布重啟大鵬灣的BOT招商，請教一下目前進度如何？"],["王部長國材：我請署長跟您報告。"],["周署長永暉：這個部分，遊一區跟遊三區依據促參法第四十六條由民間提案，另外，遊二區部分也同時進行。照我們現在看來，大概是年底就可以完成甄審，但目前來講還在招商過程。在交通部促參記者會裡，我們也把它列入重點工作，目前還在按照程序走。"],["徐委員富癸：這點我倒要提醒一下部長跟署長。其實大鵬灣的問題在於很多廠商願意來，但是面對的是很多公共設施，包含水質和基礎建設處理速度太慢了啦！造成業者不敢來投資。針對這些問題，部裡有沒有什麼想法？"],["周署長永暉：這部分我們已經專案處理，現在大幅改善了。業者現在主要還是希望更多法令鬆綁，我們也都已經儘量開放了，所以這部分就等招商，看看投資廠商的看法。"],["徐委員富癸：這部分還是請部裡和署長加強。"],["周署長永暉：還有水質等其他部分，我們都已經持續在做。"],["徐委員富癸：好。","另外，屏東鐵路高架化只做到一部分，目前做到潮州至林邊，還有一部分鐵路高架化沒有完成，最近幾年也陸陸續續發生很多鐵路平交道事故。我要請教部長，究竟屏東縣鐵路全線高架化什麼時候可以完成？"],["楊局長正君：我們現在研究把枋寮車站納入南迴瓶頸路段改善可行性研究加以探討。"],["王部長國材：本來也有談到潮州以後要不要都高架化，但這筆經費非常高，所以現在的重點是枋寮大車站平臺這項計畫，也就是枋寮車站的前後加以處理，目前是這樣。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，不要每次提到經費，你就講南部人這筆經費很龐大，我們聽不下去啦！"],["王部長國材：也不會……"],["徐委員富癸：我們也繳了稅，不能當二等國民啊！每次遇到交通事故、甚至等一個平交道，真的都花很多時間，這不是我們屏東人想看到的情形，所以可不可以給我們一個期程？"],["王部長國材：先從枋寮車站做，因為枋寮車站人比較多，所以先從枋寮車站處理。"],["徐委員富癸：有沒有期程規劃？"],["楊局長正君：現在是直接處理高架化部分，枋寮車站要高架化。"],["王部長國材：枋寮部分先處理。"],["徐委員富癸：在我的印象中，7年前就提到，而且枋寮站那邊會遭遇淹水等很嚴重的問題，所以能不能加快進行？"],["王部長國材：好，可行性報告已經完成，我們會加快審查，先從枋寮開始。"],["徐委員富癸：好。","最後一個問題我想請教部長。目前鐵路建設都要拖很久，未來有沒有可能走向民營系統考量，也就是鐵路路線與車站規劃的部分？"],["王部長國材：目前是這樣，第一是先做組織改革，也就是臺鐵今年1月1日變成臺鐵公司，我想就先由它經營。關於會不會走上民營化？現在還是以國營化、國營公司方式處理，這種國營公司也可以盡到很多偏鄉有關的義務，比如說你剛才談到屏東很多車站是無人站，國營公司可以做這種偏鄉服務。"],["徐委員富癸：其實很多站周邊景點是很漂亮的，可以考慮一些……"],["王部長國材：是，現在先讓國營的臺鐵公司做做看，我想先讓他們做做看。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：徐委員發言完畢。","現在處理臨時提案，本日計有6案，請議事人員一併宣讀。","一、","案由：","茲因電信詐騙頻傳，且中華電信配合廠商有涉入詐騙案件，可能導致個資外流。敬請中華電信檢視近五年內MVNO（虛擬行動網路服務經營者）合作廠商，確認合作廠商是否均符合並持有NCC相關電信執照以及查詢客戶個資外流情況，相關補償措施及檢討報告請於兩週內提出。","提案人：黃健豪　　徐巧芯　　葛如鈞　　廖先翔　　林沛祥","二、","案由：","交通部鐵道局於汐止舉辦基隆捷運公聽會時，諸多地方民眾都建議樟樹灣往南港方向應該要評估以板南線延伸替代，而樟樹灣往基隆方向則儘速推動以維護基隆市民權益，鐵道局當時承諾會將民眾的建議納入基隆捷運的綜合規劃報告，無奈該報告先射箭再畫靶，引用錯誤的資訊與不符合常理推斷的預測做出錯誤的結論，後又有民眾登錄公共政策網路參與平臺在案，並於短時間內快速達成連署，足以代表汐止民眾對於板南線延伸的期待。","爰此，請交通部責成相關單位於1個月之內啟動「臺北捷運板南線延伸汐止」之可行性評估，以回應民意，便利民眾通勤生活密集往來，並滿足地方政府都市發展需求。","提案人：廖先翔　　林沛祥　　邱若華　　魯明哲　　黃健豪　　林國成　　","三、","據桃園機場捷運公司預估，直至民國120年，桃園機場捷運單日運量將從112年的12萬人，提升至單日21萬人，8年間單日旅客成長數預估近兩倍之多。且依據專業評估，當前車次於尖峰時段每15分鐘，僅能提供一直達車一普通車次，運能每小時僅能容納3,552人次，但112年度尖峰時刻的運量便已高達4,210人次，直至120年更會高達每小時7,318人次，已然遠超當前實際運能的兩倍之多。","基此，桃園機場捷運預估尚須9列直達車、6列普通車才能符合未來機捷營運需求。爰要求交通部及相關單位，應於二個月內，盡速與桃園市政府達成購車協議，以利未來桃園機場捷運永續發展，並提升旅客服務量能。","提案人：魯明哲　　邱若華　　黃健豪　　林沛祥　　廖先翔","四、","案由：","大貨車靠行現象有其歷史源緣由，但近年來常有貨運車行將貨車抵押貸款以致糾紛頻傳。為有效解決此產權疑慮，建請交通部、公路局參考土地法第79-1條規定，要求大貨車靠行契約及相關貸款行為應送至監理機關核備，並由監理機關實質審查後通知車主，以保障車主權益。","提案人：林俊憲　　陳素月　　何欣純","五、","新北林口地區人口數逐年成長，與桃園龜山地區可視為共同生活圈，而去年因1200定期票上路並納入機捷後，搭乘運量大幅增加，民眾搭乘意願升高，據數據統計林口龜山地區輕軌運量密度已逼近「優先」路線門檻，實有必要啟動可行性評估，加速推動。","王國材部長去年年中在交通委員會考察時更對於「林口─龜山輕軌鐵道系統」講出全力支持的承諾，能夠連結大林口龜山地區且串接桃捷，讓民眾使用大眾運輸轉乘服務更加方便，有效提升運量、減少私人運具碳排。","爰此，在中央地方共同建設之前提下，提案要求交通部一個月內邀集新北、桃園市府討論督促提出「林口龜山輕軌建設」可行性評估計畫，作為整體計畫的開展，並回覆提案委員該建設計畫粗估時間表，展現中央與地方共同推動大眾運輸之積極態度。","提案人：林沛祥　　林國成　　黃健豪　　廖先翔　　洪孟楷　　","六、","鑒於南投縣縣長許淑華時任第十屆立委時推動的「南投縣軌道系統整體路網評估計畫」，南投縣政府已於113年2月6日上午召開工作計畫書審查，擬提出台中捷運橘線從霧峰延伸到南投市、名間濁水車站；以及鐵路集集支線濁水站延伸到南投市的規劃。查目前臺中市政府規劃橘線（臺中機場捷運線）南端最後一站為霧峰省議會紀念園區附近，未來臺中市政府如有延伸至南投之規劃，相關用地經費亦希望中央併同補助，台中捷運藍線延伸到南投縣為南投縣民期盼之重大交通建設，亦為總統大選各陣營之重要主張，然中捷藍線審議通過，卻未延伸至南投，要求行政院及交通部協助台中捷運橘線延伸南投，以及鐵道集集支線濁水站延伸至南投市區，形成南投路網系統，向中央表達爭取捷運建設的決心。爰此，行政院及交通部應儘速協助並早日核定台中捷運延伸至南投，要求交通部於一個月內提出規劃期程並向本委員會報告，以完善南投台中軌道交通，弭平城鄉差距，促進南投產業發展。","提案人：游　顥","連署人：許宇甄　　黃建賓　　邱若華　　萬美玲　　張智倫　　魯明哲　　傅崐萁"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","廖先翔","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","游顥","萬美玲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","高金素梅","王鴻薇","李柏毅","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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我們民眾人要看到的情形。先從黃寮車站的,這個人比較多啦,從黃寮車站下來處理。"},{"start":540.836,"end":565.097,"text":"有沒有一個騎乘規劃?現在是直接處理高價化高價化的部分仿寮車站高價化對這個我在想我印象中因為7年前又停到而且這個仿寮站那邊會造成所謂的一個淹水的一個很嚴重的一個問題這應該是不是加快來進行他們那個可行性報告已經完成我們加快來審查先從仿寮開始好"},{"start":567.616,"end":586.369,"text":"最後一個問題我想請教部長就是因為我們現在目前的鐵路建設都要拖很久的時間那我想未來有沒有可能走向一個所謂的民營的一個系統來考量就是所謂的一個鐵路路線跟車站的一個規劃的部分"},{"start":587.544,"end":607.68,"text":"目前是這樣因為那個我們先第一個是組織改革就台鐵變成現在業業要變成台鐵公司我想就由他先去經營就是說會不會走上民意化現在目前是還是以勾引化勾引公司的方式來處理那這種勾引公司也可以進到很多偏鄉的義務"},{"start":608.881,"end":608.901,"text":"謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"149409","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149409","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f48f8eadc32c95a2a52d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a67f1d54b67cc1d2975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:51:56 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12:05:06","影片長度":"00:13:10","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":790,"end_time":"2024-03-06T12:05:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T11:51:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":794,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時51分）謝謝主席，請王部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["蔡委員其昌：請楊董事長。"],["主席：請楊董事長。"],["王部長國材：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長好、董事長好。一個早上大概朝野的委員都在桃園機場這次歲修導致塞機的這個事件上面，事實上大家談的我也不再重複啦！但我覺得三件事把它做好，第一個，道歉並研議往後針對這個事件，包括可能嚴重受損的旅客是不是有相關的一些補償的機制，這是第一個。第二個，非常重要的關鍵，歲修不是新聞啦！歲修機場、固定歲修都一定要做嘛！這次歲修會讓董事長跟總經理沒有預估到會導致今天這個情形，我認為這個歲修的SOP一定有問題，不然怎麼可能會這樣？以前怎麼弄，發展到今天的歲修會變成塞機，然後旅客抱怨，然後變成了一個大家覺得不可思議的情形，所以這個歲修SOP機制的檢討，立刻進行可以嗎？這個要多久的時間可以做好？"],["楊董事長偉甫：報告委員，目前已經在進行檢討當中，公司內部的部分在這個禮拜會檢討出來，公司外部的單位在下個禮拜會檢討。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個我想不會需要太多的時間啦！我想兩週到一個月之內，一定要把未來新的歲修SOP到底要怎麼來做，到底你要多久之前公告，因為歲修我們現在就已經知道大概南跑道好了之後，接下來北跑道，那接下來下一次要歲修的點在哪裡，它大概什麼時間、多少錢，因為你的預算一定事先編列了，所以這個其實不要說三個月，我認為可以儘量早半年嘛！因為現在國際都在塞，機票很難訂，像我的經驗來講，我都要提早半年訂，所以你現在必須先讓我知道半年後我要去的機場、我要出發的航班，會不會因為你又有歲修。如果今天是突發的，那沒有辦法，我想國人大家可以接受，但是歲修這樣的事情犯了這個錯誤，這個應該要真的檢討。特別是楊董事長，我覺得你從在政府部門的公務機關，從基層一路上來，過去你在水利署或者經濟部的表現其實我都很肯定，不管從馬總統一路到蔡總統，我對你的表現都是很肯定的，所以你是有能力的人，有能力的人面對這個事情，那就應該更清楚、透明的讓大家知道原因在哪裡以及怎麼做、要怎麼解決，不要再讓這個事情發生，我想你去桃機公司，這個就是你首要的工作。","最後一個就是我剛剛講的，你的SOP出來之後，你才有消費者預警機制的建立，其實預警機制的建立大家都在講要公告，公告我不反對，但其實目標客戶（TA）很清楚，目標客戶都在航空公司跟旅行社，也就是你的預警機制裡面怎麼直接把可能要搭飛機的人，你的關鍵就在於航空公司跟旅行社之間，怎麼快速讓他知道說你買這一班飛機有可能會遇到歲修，甚至我告訴你，你買這班飛機就會遇到歲修，所以你有可能會被延誤2小時、延誤3小時，因此航空公司從賣票開始該不該賣，他就先提醒消費者，那不該賣的票就不該賣，反正這一班你一定會延遲超過12個小時，那這一班還要賣嗎？第二個，如果這個會延遲1、2個小時，你有預警機制讓消費者事先知道，我相信消費者他會選擇這個航班，他就已經知道會有遇到歲修的情形，所以他的那個感受，就是他的不爽程度自然會下降，因為我已經告訴你這一班會比較慢喔！你會受到影響喔！轉機也是一樣嘛！所以消費者預警機制的建立，我想這個其實是很重要的，不要再犯這種對我來講叫做有一點低級的錯誤，這個是非常重要的事情。","第二個事情，大家都在談機場的排行，雖然我已經8年的時間沒有在交通委員會，但事實上這個是common sense，也就是每一個調查單位對於每一個機場的排名，其實它都有它的量化指標，有些指標我們可以達成，那有些排行看起來數字不好，譬如說13名掉到82名，這個看起來數字就非常糟糕。那我們也知道，這個這個排名其實主要都還是在消費者他的滿意度的調查，當然我也可以接受疫情哪有消費者會對桃園機場滿意的，我想大家都很不滿意，包括我在內，但是這個就是疫情嘛！所以我們應該針對像這種讓臺灣很難看的數字，我認為桃機公司應該要把它在今年……因為今年現在才3月嘛！到12月我們還有很大的努力空間，我們都知道它的重點是什麼，所以就針對它的重點改善。我常常在講，任何的評鑑都是一樣啦！立法院也是一樣，立法院也有民間NGO團體在評鑑每一個立委，那每一個評鑑它的公告都會公告它的準則，譬如有一些人特別重視量化，你來質詢幾次、你提案通過幾個，但是質詢的內容有些不在乎，就是你上臺鬼扯它也沒有關係，這個就是量化嘛！所以一樣的道理，機場的排名也是一樣，但是不管怎麼樣，它有排名就一定有指標，而這個指標不管怎麼樣，總是我們能做好所有的指標都是高分，這個對臺灣的形象很好嘛！對機場公司的績效也好嘛！所以不管哪一個排名，有些排名剛剛部長講，那個叫做BusinessFinancing……"],["王部長國材：BusinessFinancing是第9名。"],["蔡委員其昌：第9名嘛！那另外就有八十幾名的嘛！不管怎樣，它一定有一些指標我們是輸的嘛！是不好的嘛！所以就要針對它的指標來改。董事長，現在是82，明年再回到六十幾有沒有辦法？"],["楊董事長偉甫：我們努力的目標不只有這樣子，事實上我去年到公司來以後，部長就有特別交代，這個是機場公司今年的工作重點。"],["蔡委員其昌：那抓一個目標，想要第幾名？"],["楊董事長偉甫：我們至少要進到前50名，第一階段。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，非常好，這個是一個很有guts的說法，儘量啦！衝到比較前面啦！這很漏氣，不太好看，我們曾經是13名，所以換言之，以前的滿意度曾經到達13嘛！當然疫情是一個因素，那扣掉疫情，是不是我們就真的能夠再回到13，這個是一個你要努力的方向。"],["楊董事長偉甫：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：另外，部長，我也想借這個機會談機場，有關臺中機場，我想過去這8年當中，雖然我沒有來交通委員會質詢，但你為了臺中機場，我們也多次開會，甚至民航局也幾乎每一年都要去我辦公室好幾次，所以我想借這個機會也跟部長討論一下，針對臺中機場，在2040年整體規劃裡有提到，第一點，就是機場從目前的一年369萬人次到2040年的目標是500萬人次。要達到500萬人次，基本上一樣，就是要先前做好準備，所以2040年的整體規劃其實也是要為了這個目標做準備。","這些其實我都支持，我們過去針對2040年目標、甚至接下來四、五年的目標也都參與討論，但是有幾點我還是要提醒。第一，長期來看，未來因應500萬人次以上、甚至目標我的期待可能就是1,000萬人次嘛！那T3──不是桃園的T3，是臺中的T3就要提早進行規劃。但是事實上我們都知道，圖這邊有。部長也都很清楚，過去十幾年來，我就一直對機場的規劃意見很大，因為我們老是把機場Terminal 1、Terminal 2縮在這個小小的角落，後面陽西區更大，只是這個圖沒有顯示陽西區，而我們老是在這一小塊裡打轉。我們知道旁邊就是漢翔，所以有一點非常有趣，也就是臺中機場會呈現一個非常小塊的Terminal 1、Terminal 2，接下來的區域則大概是這裡的30倍或50倍，可能要畫到牆壁外面才畫得進來，那叫陽西區。我過去就一直提議可不可以往裡面移，但客觀因素、主觀因素很多，包括空軍意見一大堆，當時我問漢翔可不可以讓一些土地，它也不肯，這些都是過去的限制。好！現在我們要做2040年的計畫，不！是已經做了2040年的計畫，所以我會希望Terminal 3的位置千萬不要再跟Terminal 1、Terminal 2擠了啦！也就是說，我們要將Terminal 3的位置再往西移一點。時間還很久啦！2040年的計畫耶！還有十幾年啦！所以應該及早把計畫走出來。當然不需要到我剛剛講的四、五十公頃那麼大的土地，但是以Terminal 3往西移作為規劃應該可以好好思考。對於未來臺中機場從三百多萬人次變成五百多萬人次，以及我希望目標達到1,000萬人次，Terminal 3勢在必行，你們也規劃了，但是我覺得位置的配比上要重新來過。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：在短期計畫裡，部長，去年我也找你談過。我們一起努力，也拜訪了航空公司，針對臺中國際機場航班、航點的問題，我們努力爭取的結果，看起來長榮集團跟華航集團因為飛機的問題沒有辦法短期增加，但至少我們爭取了星宇，3月底就要在臺中增加航點，直飛峴港、直飛澳門，所以我們再繼續努力啦！"],["王部長國材：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：至少臺中機場過去績效也很好，包含飛Okinawa、也就是飛琉球，中部人、我們臺中人一直很希望能直飛日本。這不是單要求交通部啦！也要航空公司飛有飛機、租有飛機、又願意配合。但我希望在行政上交通部全力促成，積極地協調國航幾家航空公司，讓臺中機場航線、航點、航班都能增加，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：可以吧！"],["王部長國材：我向委員報告，過去談到包括星宇，他們會增加臺中，我們上次也特別找他們來談。事實上，蔡委員對於T3有前瞻性看法，但也的確受軍方限制很大。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯。"],["王部長國材：我們對第三航廈的確已經有初步計畫了，針對這部分，我會請民航局再跟蔡委員討論。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，主要是位置的調整啦！"],["王部長國材：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：計畫我知道啦！但是對於位置的調整，部長可能要做個決定。"],["王部長國材：對，調整以後讓2040年更有未來性，這個方向我請他們再跟您討論。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。","短線上讓臺中機場更活絡這點也很重要喔！"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我們繼續努力啦！"],["王部長國材：好，謝謝。"],["主席：蔡委員發言完畢。","請徐富癸委員發言。徐委員發言完畢之後處理臨時提案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","廖先翔","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","游顥","萬美玲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","高金素梅","王鴻薇","李柏毅","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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sense也就是每一個調查單位他對每一個機場的排名其實他都有他的量化的指標啦那有些指標我們可以達成那有些排行看起來數字不好嘛比如說這個13名調到82名這個看起來數字就非常糟糕"},{"start":307.775,"end":326.188,"text":"我們也知道這個排名其實主要都還是在消費者他的滿意度的調查當然我也可以接受疫情哪有消費者會對桃園機場滿意的我想大家都很不滿意包括我在內但是這個就是疫情所以我們應該針對像這種讓台灣很難看的這種數字"},{"start":331.107,"end":353.733,"text":"我認為淘汰公司應該要把它在今年因為今年現在才3月到12月我們還有很大的努力空間我們都知道它的重點是什麼所以把它的針對它的重點改善雖然這個我常常在講這個任何的評鑑都是一樣的立法院也是一樣立法院也有這個民間NGO團體在評鑑每一個立委"},{"start":355.58,"end":370.147,"text":"每一個評鑑他的公告都會公告他的準則嘛比如說有一些人特別重視量化你來質詢幾次你提案通過幾個但是質詢的內容有些不在乎啊就是你上台鬼扯他也沒有關係"},{"start":371.42,"end":397.167,"text":"那這個就是量化嘛所以一樣的道理機場的排名也是一樣但是不管怎麼樣他有排名他就一定有指標而這個指標不管怎麼樣總是我們能做好所有的指標都是高分這個對台灣的形象很好嘛對機場公司的績效也好嘛所以不管哪一個排名啦有些排名剛剛部長講那個叫做什麼Business Financial"},{"start":397.327,"end":398.228,"text":"總統現在是82明年再回到60幾有沒有辦法?"},{"start":418.674,"end":428.779,"text":"我們努力的目標不只有這樣子事實上我去年到公司來以後部長就特別交代這個是機場公司今年的工作重點我們是朝進到前50名第一階段"},{"start":435.242,"end":453.361,"text":"很有價值的說法,盡量啦,衝到前面啦,這很漏氣,這不好看我們曾經13名,所以換言之以前的滿意度曾經到達13嘛那當然疫情是一個因素,那扣掉疫情是不是我們就真的能夠再回到13這個是一個你要努力的方向啦"},{"start":454.762,"end":476.241,"text":"另外部長我也想藉這個機會談機場這個臺中機場我想過去這8年當中雖然我沒有來交通委員會質詢但你為了臺中機場我們也多次開會甚至民防局也常常幾乎每一年都要去我辦公室好幾次所以我想藉這個機會也跟部長討論一下這個臺中機場在這個"},{"start":484.217,"end":493.873,"text":"2040年的整體規劃裡面我們有去提到第一個就是機場從目前的一年369萬人次到2040年目標是500萬人次"},{"start":498.089,"end":522.389,"text":"那500萬人次基本上他就要一樣嘛就是要先前做好準備所以2040年的2040年的整體規劃其實也是為了這個目標要去做準備那這個其實我都支持我們過去也都針對40年目標甚至接下來45年的目標我們都有參與討論但是有幾點我還是要提醒第一個長期來看長期來看"},{"start":524.871,"end":537.065,"text":"未來因應500萬人次以上甚至目標可能我的期待就是1000萬人次那T3不是桃園的T3是台中的T3"},{"start":540.774,"end":559.943,"text":"這個這個這個要提早去進行規劃那但是事實上我們都知道吼那個圖這邊有吼部長你也都很清楚我過去啊十幾年來我就一直為這個這個機場的這個規劃我其實意見都一直很大吼因為我們老是把機場terminal1 terminal2縮在這個小小的這個角落"},{"start":560.623,"end":560.723,"text":"臺中機場臺中機場"},{"start":583.183,"end":602.611,"text":"大概30倍或50倍啦就是吼這個可能要畫到牆壁外面才可以畫的進來那個叫楊溪區所以我過去就一直提議說可不可以往裡面移啦但客觀因素主觀因素很多包括空軍啊意見一大堆當時我叫漢強可不可以讓一些土地他也不肯"},{"start":603.491,"end":615.185,"text":"這些都是過去的限制好現在我們要做2040年的計劃已經做了2040年的計劃所以我會希望terminal3的位置千萬不要再跟1跟2去擠了啦"},{"start":616.516,"end":635.909,"text":"也就是說我們要將Terminal 3的位置再往西一點時間還很久啦2040年的計畫呢還十幾年啦所以應該要及早把這個計畫走出來啦當然不需要到我剛剛講的那四五十多多大的土地但是"},{"start":636.843,"end":646.774,"text":"把Terminal 3往西移來以他做一個規劃這個應該可以好好的來思考未來台中機場從500萬300多變500多目標我希望達到1000萬人次"},{"start":651.567,"end":669.233,"text":"這個Terminal 3勢在必行你們也規劃了但是我覺得位置恐怕位置的配比上要重新來過那短期計畫裡面我想部長去年我也找你談過我們一起努力也拜訪了航空公司就是台中國際機場航班"},{"start":672.213,"end":672.733,"text":"蔡其昌 蔡其昌 蔡其昌"},{"start":698.105,"end":718.222,"text":"主席時間到了所以我們再繼續努力啦 把至少台中基地 譬如過去過去這個西校也很好飛沖繩飛琉球然後中部人一直期待我們台中人很希望可以直飛日本那這些東西"},{"start":719.443,"end":723.928,"text":"我希望行政上交通部全力來促成然後積極的協調這個國航的幾個航空公司讓台中機場這個航線、航點、航班都能夠增加"},{"start":739.463,"end":741.824,"text":"蔡委員對於T3的確有一個前瞻性的看法,但她的確受驚慌限制擔當。"},{"start":760.573,"end":773.06,"text":"現在的確我們第三行下已經有一個初步的計畫了我想這部分我請民行局這邊再跟蔡委員在討論主要是位置的調整啦計畫我知道啦位置的調整這個調整以後讓他"},{"start":776.381,"end":776.501,"text":"蔡委員"}]}},{"id":"149408","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149408","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f05be39db6b2859c252d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a6ea90fa9c19d9589c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:41:11 - 11:51:43","影片長度":"00:10:32","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":632,"end_time":"2024-03-06T11:51:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T11:41:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":750,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時41分）主席好，有請部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長國材：邱委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長好。桃園機場南跑道年度歲修，僅仰賴北跑道起降，多架班機起降延誤、改時，嚴重衝擊機場秩序，桃機跟交通部也坦言衝擊超乎預期，請問部長，這是管理失能，對被延誤旅客的賠償金額估計是多少？航空公司索賠估計多少？這些都是國庫的損失，預計什麼時候可以統計出來？"],["王部長國材：現在還沒有談到這個。現在是先調查，因為航空公司跟它的乘客先來，他們整個處理完以後，我會請桃機公司找航空公司來算一下，再決定後續怎麼處理；這個都還沒有算出來。"],["邱委員若華：都還沒算出來？OK，好，那請再提供本席書面資料。"],["王部長國材：好。"],["邱委員若華：謝謝部長。","管理失能不只是國庫的損失，桃園機場是我們國家的門面，國際旅客還有外籍航空公司怎麼看待這次的事件？這次機場管理失能傳到國外，對臺灣是負面的，本席想請問部長，對於這次的事件，旅客還有航空公司是怎麼看待的？"],["王部長國材：的確啦！這次我覺得機場公司這邊的警覺性不夠，就是說已經知道那一天要有這麼多的航班，應該是航班的分散，還有相關的航空公司是不是已經更改班次等等的要先確定。我想這次也讓桃機做一個澈底的檢討，現在是南跑道，下半年是北跑道，在北跑道的部分，他們應該把所有的標準作業程序都做出來。"],["邱委員若華：這次是提前54個小時預告嗎？"],["王部長國材：蛤？"],["邱委員若華：請問部長這次預告的時間。"],["王部長國材：它是2月21日告訴各個航空公司，我們覺得這個時間也不夠，因為如果旅客已經訂了飛機，航空公司要變更也很難，所以我是覺得這個通告應該要更早。我們現在整個檢討的情形是說3個月前就應該公告，不只營業者，包括消費者，就是旅客也要公告，讓他們心裡有所準備。"],["邱委員若華：OK，好。","這次機場南跑道歲修造成航班大亂，交通部坦承整修規模較往年大，而且沒有注意到交通量，這也凸顯出機場管理的問題。去年在英國Skytrax全球機場評比中，桃園機場從第67名跌到第82名，距2019年最好的第13名滑落了69個名次，請問部長，有哪些因素造成這次評比成績大幅下滑？有哪些改進的action呢？或者是有哪些項目可以在短期內讓我們看到改善的成果？"],["王部長國材：我跟邱委員報告，在2023年，除了Skytrax以外，英國還有一個媒體叫做BusinessFinancing，在它的評比當中，桃園機場是全世界第9名。Skytrax是從旅客的感受來看這個機場，2023年他們的調查應該是在該年度的前面，這段時間就是疫情期間。跟委員報告，那時我們機場很多免稅店是沒有開的，而且因為防疫，也做了很多管制。事實上我在幾個月前有到機場，跟他們討論過桃園機場在Skytrax的排名為什麼降這麼多，他們也有幾個方向在處理。當然，也不能說好像桃園機場做得很好，我覺得全世界的機場都在競爭，包括像這次3月3日的問題，我想機場要改善的地方還非常的多，最重要的是機場應該透過這次的學習……"],["邱委員若華：不好意思，我這邊先打斷你。您提到競爭，在2021年7月11日，蘇貞昌前院長在視察桃園國際機場第三航廈主體土建工程時，就表示機場是國家的大門，是國家競爭力最重要的資源，請問部長，第三航廈目前的興建情況如何？"],["王部長國材：第三航廈現在還是在115年完工，然後我們會陸續從北廊廳、主航廈到南廊廳，意思是說，雖然是115年做完，但是我們北廊廳會先開放登機，所以應該是再1年左右，第三航廈的北廊廳已經可以登機了；第三航廈全體完工是在115年。"],["邱委員若華：115？"],["王部長國材：115年會完工，是！"],["邱委員若華：針對這次事件，對民進黨政府施政相挺的財經專家謝金河也感嘆，臺灣的經濟力大有進展，不過機場建設卻落後，他也向新任總統賴清德喊話，說這也許是未來施政很好的著力點。過去8年也是民進黨執政，部長對謝金河先生的發言有何感想？"],["王部長國材：事實上桃園機場在疫情前的表現算還不錯，你可以看到108年它在全世界很多評比都是前面的，當然，在疫情這段期間，他們像一些跑道還有一些航廈的推動都是一直往前，這次我覺得是對這樣一條跑道起降沒有警覺心，我個人是覺得這個是要檢討，並沒有辦法用這一天來否定整個桃園機場他們的努力，但是我覺得3月3日這一天的事情是我們必須痛定思痛來檢討的。"],["邱委員若華：好。機場跟觀光有非常大的關係，臺灣的觀光好像還在原地踏步，這部分有被盤點出幾個致命傷，包括景點特色不足，還有重視短期補助、忽視長遠的規劃、嚴重缺工、旅遊費用高，現在的困境不只影響海外來臺旅遊的意願，許多國人也認為出國比國旅好。根據交通部觀光署112年的統計，出國旅客總共有1,179萬5,834人次，來臺旅客卻只有648萬6,951人次，影響到臺灣的觀光產業，這是什麼樣的問題呢？為什麼會這樣子、數字差這麼多？"],["王部長國材：我請署長來回答。"],["周署長永暉：我們開放國境的時間點也比較晚。其實我們應該分兩個部分來談，一個是外國客來臺灣，另外一個就是我們的國民旅遊，國旅的部分我們在去年其實已經超越了我們民國108年，也就是2019年的標準，今年我們的目標就是希望能夠挑戰恢復到疫情之前。全球的分析也是這樣，有保守值和樂觀值，也就是2024年事實上是樂觀值，保守值是到2025年回到2019年的標準，這個部分我們當然也希望能夠開闢更多的亮點……"],["邱委員若華：署長，回到標準的話，人數大概會是多少？目標數是多少？"],["周署長永暉：2019年是1,187萬人次，我們還是以這個標準來努力。"],["邱委員若華：因為疫情之前臺灣每年觀光人數都是超過千萬人的嘛！"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["邱委員若華：現在日本還有亞洲國家的觀光人數都已經回到疫情前的標準了，交通部觀光署去年訂的目標其實當時連民進黨立委也認為不高，要達到目標應該不是很困難的事，你們可以提出具體的方案嗎？就是在針對我們發展臺灣觀光這一塊？"],["周署長永暉：是，我們大概應該還是要跟國際的發展趨勢一致啦！所以我們現在對臺灣的強項裡面有幾個，就是生態旅遊跟部落旅遊，還有就是我們希望能夠倡議所謂的MICE，就是順道旅遊，也就是會議之後的休假旅遊的部分，所以……"],["邱委員若華：不好意思，打斷署長。因為去年的時候部長有說過，去年12月8號的時候，部長有說過不管今年陸客會不會來，都希望可以達成1,200萬人次，這個是怎麼算出來的？"],["王部長國材：這是我們的目標，就是恢復到疫前的水準，因為去年的600萬也有100萬是陸客，後來我們就用其他地方補回來。"],["邱委員若華：好，那馬上第一季觀光統計出來之後，希望可以提供書面資料。"],["王部長國材：好。"],["周署長永暉：是，謝謝。"],["邱委員若華：這邊我們也看到，從桃園市鄭文燦前市長到現任的張善政市長，都在積極申請全國第14個國家級的風景區─北橫國家風景特定區，請問後來行政院協調的如何？"],["周署長永暉：這個部分大概已經有初步的一個想法，但是因為主要有二個部分，一個就是有些原住民的部落還是要經過部落會議的討論。第二個是我們相關單位的橫向協調，譬如說有一些是林業署的拉拉山遊樂區……"],["邱委員若華：我們希望可以儘快。"],["周署長永暉：對，還包括石門水庫是不是應該納在裡面，還有一些涉到國防部的，像是慈湖這些部分。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝署長，謝謝部長。"],["主席：邱委員發言完畢，現在請蔡其昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","廖先翔","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","游顥","萬美玲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","高金素梅","王鴻薇","李柏毅","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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是國庫的損失依據什麼時候可以統計出來?現在還沒有談到這個現在是先調查因為航空公司跟顧客先來那乘客那他們整個處理完以後我會請這個淘氣公司找航空公司來算一下那才決定後續怎麼處理這個都還沒有算出來"},{"start":60.137,"end":73.542,"text":"國際旅客及外籍航空公司怎麼看待這次的事件?這次機場管理失能傳到國外對台灣是負面的那想請問部長這次的事件旅客還有航空公司是怎麼看待的?"},{"start":87.096,"end":111.345,"text":"我想這一次我覺得這個在機場公司這邊的緊急性不夠就是說在這個已經知道那一天要有這麼多航班那應該是航班的分散還有相關的這個航空公司是不是已經改班次等等的要先確定我想說這一次也讓陶基也做一個徹底的一個檢討"},{"start":112.965,"end":114.848,"text":"這次是提前54個小時前預告嗎?"},{"start":128.452,"end":143.019,"text":"請問部長,提前預告的時間。他是2月21號告訴各個航空公司,那我們覺得這個時間也不夠,因為如果旅客已經訂了飛機,航空公司要變也很難。"},{"start":144.042,"end":159.557,"text":"所以我覺得這個通告應該會更早,我們現在是給他的這個整個檢討的情形是說3個月前就應該公告,不只營業者還要包括這個消費者,就是說旅客也要公告,讓他心裡有所準備。"},{"start":161.198,"end":177.575,"text":"那這次機場南跑道稅修造成航班大亂．交通部也坦承整修規模較往年比較大．而且沒有注意到交通量那這也凸顯出機場管理的問題去年在英國全球機場評比桃園機場從67名"},{"start":180.896,"end":181.757,"text":"因果有一個叫做那個"},{"start":211.817,"end":214.618,"text":"我們可以看到就是說這個在2023他們的調查應該是在2023的前面這段時間就是疫情期間那疫情期間跟委員報告我們機場很多的免稅店是沒有開的"},{"start":238.131,"end":257.022,"text":"﹗"},{"start":257.342,"end":273.477,"text":"當然也不能說我們好像台灣機場做得很好我覺得全世界的機場都在競爭包括像這一次的3月3號的這個問題我想說機場要改善的地方還非常的多我想說最重要的是機場應該這一次的學習"},{"start":277.181,"end":278.021,"text":"請問部長目前的興建情況如何?"},{"start":299.258,"end":322.767,"text":"三行下現在還是在115年然後我們會陸續從北廊廳、主行下跟南廊廳意思是說雖然115年做完但是我們北廊廳會先開放登機所以應該是在一年左右一年左右開始這個第三行下的北廊廳已經可以登機了這樣全體完工三行下是在115年後完工115"},{"start":328.082,"end":350.038,"text":"對於這次事件對民進黨政府施政相挺的財經專家謝金河也感嘆臺灣的經濟力大有進展不過機場建設卻落後他也向新任總統蔡金河喊話這也許是未來施政很好的著力點那過去8年是民進黨執政對謝金河先生的發言有何感想"},{"start":351.175,"end":373.135,"text":"我想,像過去台灣經常在疫情前表現是算還不錯他事實上你可以看到108他在全世界很多的評比都是前面的那當然透過這個在疫情這段時間他們事實上像一些跑道還有一些這個航廈的推動都是一直一直往前我想說這一次我覺得是一個"},{"start":374.957,"end":378.839,"text":"我個人是覺得說這個是要檢討但是並沒有辦法說用這一天來否定整個台灣機場他們的努力但是我覺得3月3日這一天的檢討是我們必須痛定思痛來檢討的"},{"start":404.269,"end":422.645,"text":"臺灣的觀光好像還在原地踏步被盤點出幾個致命傷像是景點特色不足還有縱使短期補助或是長遠的規劃嚴重的缺工還有旅遊費用高那現在的困境不只影響就是海外來臺旅遊的意願那許多國人呢也認為出國比國旅好那根據交通部觀光署調查那112年的統計總共有1170"},{"start":425.908,"end":425.968,"text":"邱若華"},{"start":441.312,"end":457.487,"text":"對 我們開放國境的時間點也比較晚 那我們其實應該分兩個部分來談 一個是外國客來台灣 另外一個就是我們國民旅遊 那國旅的部分我們在去年其實已經超越了我們"},{"start":458.828,"end":479.023,"text":"民國108年也就是這個2019的標準那麼今年我們的目標就是希望能夠挑戰我們恢復到疫情之前全球的分析也是這樣有保守值跟樂觀值也就是2024年十分是樂觀值那麼保守值是到2025年回到2019年的標準"},{"start":481.184,"end":494.017,"text":"那麼這個部分呢我們當然是也希望能夠開闢更多的亮點是,署長那回到標準大概人數會是多少目標數是多少我們目前還是以我們2019年是1187萬人次那我們還是以這個標準來努力是"},{"start":501.964,"end":524.138,"text":"因為疫情之前台灣每年觀光人數都是超過千萬人的嘛那在日本還有亞洲國家人數都已經回到疫情前的標準了還有人數那交通部觀光署去年訂的目標其實當時林民進黨立委也認為不高要達到目標應該不是很困難的事那可以提出具體的方案嗎就是在針對我們發展台灣觀光這一塊"},{"start":525.319,"end":544.997,"text":"是,我們大概應該是還是要跟國際的發展趨勢一致了所以我們現在對台灣的強項裡面有幾個就是生態旅遊跟部落旅遊還有就是我們希望能夠倡議這個所謂的MICE就是順道旅遊也就是會議之後的休假旅遊的部分"},{"start":545.818,"end":554.347,"text":"因為去年的時候部長有說過去年12月8號的時候不管有說過不管今年陸客會不會來都希望可以達成1200萬人次那這個是怎麼算出來的"},{"start":558.187,"end":583.248,"text":"這是我們的目標就是恢復到以前的水準因為去年本來這個600萬也有100萬是入客啦後來我們就用其他地方來補回來這樣子是好那馬上第一季觀光統計出來之後希望可以提供書面資料是再麻煩老長那這邊我們也看到從桃園市政文產前市長到現任的張善政市長都在積極我們全國第14個國家級的風景區"},{"start":585.089,"end":604.037,"text":"北橫國家風景特定區請問後來行政院協調的如何了這個部分大概有已經初步的一個想法是有了但是因為主要有兩個部分一個就是這個我們叫做有一些原住民的部落他們還是要經過部落會議的討論"},{"start":605.758,"end":606.379,"text":"邱委員發言完畢"}]}},{"id":"149407","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149407","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fe821af39815767a68e47b20f39b04ac8f8ba9b0039caa7a6b8e0b699dbe74fe85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:00:51 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12:12:47","影片長度":"00:11:56","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":716,"end_time":"2024-03-06T12:12:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T12:00:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1175,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時1分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：我們再請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好。6年前我在經濟委員會開始追一個離譜到不行的弊案啦！那個時候我一直搞不清楚，我們的國發基金丟了15億給一家莫名其妙的公司叫「如興」，我們的國發基金應該是要促進產業升級轉型，結果去投了一家在做牛仔布代工廠的，媒體在批評，我在立法院持續的追，結果我搞不清楚這個「如興」背後到底是誰當靠山？讓我們的國發基金投了15億下去，讓它在臺灣的投資市場騙廣大的投資人，把錢洗到中國裡面去，胡搞瞎搞！我那個時候問陳美伶，陳美伶說投資評估過程嚴謹，可昭公信。請教一下今天的主委，今天的國發會還會認為投資「如興」是過程嚴謹、可昭公信嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，它評估過程就是按照所有的案子，是一模一樣的，沒有特殊……"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以這樣的一個結果，你們今天看認為過程嚴謹嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["黃委員國昌：認為過程嚴謹嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：這個……"],["黃委員國昌：如果嚴謹的過程出來是這樣的結果，代表你們整個審議機制有問題啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，這個後來監察院有來調查，當然也有給我們建議，這個案子……"],["黃委員國昌：監察院什麼時候調查的？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：應該是去年還前年就出來了……"],["黃委員國昌：等到出事才調查有什麼用？我2018年站在這邊一而再，再而三地告訴國發基金有問題、有問題，趕快處理！現在站在你旁邊的這位蘇來守，帶著人到辦公室來跟我說國發會一定會處理，處理了什麼？什麼都沒有處理！為什麼我敢這樣講？你們說重大投資案過程嚴謹，調出會議紀錄，開什麼會啊？不是代理就是請假，典型的先射箭再畫靶，這些人有開什麼會啊？結果最後的結果是什麼？決策草率、黑箱操作，財報造假、詐騙投資人，把臺灣無辜投資大眾的錢吸來了以後洗到中國去污。2018年我一直提醒國發會說要處理，處理了什麼？處理了什麼？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，就是說我們在董事會裡面也有派代表啦！所以……"],["黃委員國昌：所以勒？派了代表以後，然後呢？處理了什麼？請你告訴我處理了什麼？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：到後來因為董事長的個人因素也被起訴……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們到今天認為這是個人因素喔？那個財報造假，什麼時候造假的你知道嗎？你知道嗎？國發會投的時候就是假的了，不是後來才是假的耶！你們怎麼評估的？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：那個財報當時來講是有報金管會，當初已經看過了。"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？所以你們看過、金管會看過，大家分擔責任，最後誰要負責？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：發現造假那是事後，所以我們事後當然要有因應的措施。"],["黃委員國昌：所以嘛！我就問你嘛！你們那個時候採取什麼措施？我一而再，再而三提醒國發會要處理，處理了什麼？我今天就問這個簡單的問題，處理了什麼？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：後來投保中心有提告，我們也跟……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！那也是出事以後嘛！那是2022年的事耶！我拜託你啊！2018年到2022年，我離開立法院以後，我跟吹哨人合作，我們鍥而不捨在追蹤這個案件，我就問你嘛！2018年提醒你們這件事，到後來被起訴，你們國發會幹了什麼？派了董事去幹了什麼？跟大家說幹了什麼啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我剛才已經說啦！就是說投保中心有……"],["黃委員國昌：你什麼都沒有做啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們跟著起訴。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！你是等到東窗事發，股票快要變壁紙才在求償，你要跟誰求償啊？你可以求償到多少錢啊？我現在問你的是2018年國發會說要處理，處理了什麼？處理到最後，起訴了、人跑了，投保中心去求償，然後你們國發會有臉跟媒體說我們比較倒楣，是誰倒楣？是國發會倒楣還是納稅人倒楣？誰倒楣？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，所有投資基金的話，我們要用總額來看，單一案件的話當然……"],["黃委員國昌：我先一件一件算啦！這一個案子吸臺灣投資人的錢，洗到中國去被污走，你們到今天還不肯承認錯誤，還在說比較倒楣，這件事情有任何人被追究責任嗎？可以消極怠惰到這種程度嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：監察院已經調查過了，沒有任何個人的疏失……"],["黃委員國昌：繼續啦！沒有任何個人的疏失？我這樣講，你講得出來我聽不下去，社會大眾聽不聽得下去，大家心裡有一把尺，如出一轍聯合再生，一模一樣……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：檢調……"],["黃委員國昌：聯合再生，一模一樣。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：檢調調查跟監察院調查，這個就是一個重要的機制，我們都尊重它的調查結果。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！那我現在再問你了嘛！你把刑事犯罪的刑事責任跟國發基金那個時候消極不作為可以混為一談喔？可以混為一談喔？這不就是當初你們決策錯誤嗎？提醒你們決策錯誤，叫你們要處理。蘇來守站在旁邊，你帶著官員說國發會一定會處理，我今天就問一個簡單的問題嘛！你處理了什麼？還有臉跟納稅人講我們倒楣，誰倒楣啊？我有說錯嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：整體的國發基金每一年事實上它的獲益是200多億……"],["黃委員國昌：我們一件一件來看，再下一個，聯合再生如出一轍，當初新日光這3家合併，前三年虧了一百多億，那時候不是我質疑而已，民進黨的立委、民進黨自己的立委都在質疑，為什麼要投資這三家虧損這麼嚴重的公司？我們的國發基金成為紓困基金嗎？為什麼要借錢給他們？那時候國發會副主委鄭貞茂說是因為他們要轉型、因為他們要升級，然後呢？立委問他，轉型、升級完之後，認為它明年就會獲利，對於投資聯合再生這家公司，國發會今天的立場，認為當初的決策是不是正確的？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，國發基金的機制是這樣，任何案子都可以報到國發基金來申請，無論是剛剛講的創新轉型基金的協助等等，我們有評估……"],["黃委員國昌：我就直接問，聯合再生這個投資案是誰介紹的？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我不知道，當時我不在國發會，也沒有人介紹吧！應該是這樣。"],["黃委員國昌：結果鄭貞茂信誓旦旦的說，投資完了之後，一樣丟了將近30億進去，所謂的升級、所謂的轉型，國發基金的錢進去了、投資人跟著進去了，聯合再生從2019年開始到現在虧損了將近140億，你認不認識聯合再生的董事長？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我不太認識他。"],["黃委員國昌：你有沒有跟他吃過飯？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我也不記得了。"],["黃委員國昌：聯合再生一模一樣，審議的過程，這些委員不是請假就是代理，先射箭再畫靶，早就決定了，當初牽線的人……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：沒這回事啦！"],["黃委員國昌：我就跟你講得很具體嘛！當初牽線的人叫做張景森、叫做張景森，從上而下的決定，現在你說你忘記了，我就具體地問你，誰決定投資的？一切要經過審查，然而審查委員會不是請假就是代理，聯合再生拿到我們納稅人的紓困基金繼續虧，2020年擔任蔡英文綠能後援會的總會長，我接下來就問你，2020年3月18日你與聯合再生的董事長以及張景森、潘孟安在請客樓談了什麼？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我根本不記得這件事情。"],["黃委員國昌：有沒有？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我不知道啊！"],["黃委員國昌：你回去查，我們下次質詢時繼續追下去。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：怎麼查？"],["黃委員國昌：你查你的日曆啊！你有沒有吃過這頓飯，在國會可以回答說你不知道喔？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我當然不知道啊！五年前的事，哪一天發生什麼事，你怎麼會記得？"],["黃委員國昌：這種官商分際、這種官商分際，慷納稅人之慨，建立自己的政商關係。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：沒有這回事啦！"],["黃委員國昌：這不是鐵錚錚的例子嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：這不是例子啊！檢調來查才是最真實的啊！"],["黃委員國昌：所以在你們民進黨官員的眼裡，只要檢調沒有來查就代表沒有事喔？納稅人的錢是這樣給你們花的喔？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：檢調才是最客觀的，如果真的有不法的證據，我們都會配合啊！要提供任何的資料，我們都會完全配合啊！"],["黃委員國昌：我就簡單講嘛！站在民進黨所謂的清廉、勤政、愛鄉土，你們的廉政倫理規範只有一個規則，檢調沒有查代表沒有事，是這樣嗎？是這樣嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：委員可以去檢調……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我就問你，你們所謂的清廉、勤政、愛鄉土，你們的廉政倫理規範只有一條，檢調沒有來查就沒有事，是這樣嗎？把標準講清楚嘛！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：它要有客觀的證據，你現在都是推論。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！我現在客觀的證據不是提出來了？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：這些都是推論啦！"],["黃委員國昌：這不是推論，你有去？沒有去？你告訴大家說沒有？還是告訴大家說你不記得？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：你這是看圖說故事嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！你有去？沒有去？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：看圖說故事要成為呈證也要檢調確認才行。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！你有去？沒有去？連這麼簡單的問題都不敢回答喔？"],["主席：謝謝主委，我想大家還是要互相尊重，不要有情緒。"],["黃委員國昌：你有去？沒有去？回答完這個問題再往下嘛！你連這個問題都不敢回答喔？拿納稅人的錢去搞政商關係。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我沒有這樣做。"],["黃委員國昌：虧了這麼多錢。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：你不要亂講，我沒有這樣做！"],["主席：時間到，謝謝。因為經濟委員會一般都會針對委員的發言請官員來回答，因為剛剛主委有講到兩個事件，本席在主席台特別提示，我們國發基金的投資不是以總額來看，這點要很注意喔！對於委員提出的每個案子都必須要詳實說明，它絕對不是以總投資額的多少去決定，這點請主委要細心回答。","接來我們請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在場。","請李柏毅委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","林岱樺","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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我的下次質詢的時候繼續摔下去你查你的歷歷啊 你有沒有吃過這頓飯你在國會可以回答說你不知道我當然不知道啊 你五年前的事情哪一天的事情發生什麼事情你怎麼會記得這種官商憤記這種官商憤記 扛納稅人之慨去建立自己的政商關係沒有這回事啦"},{"start":616.127,"end":636.35,"text":"這不是鐵砧砧的例子嗎?這不是例子啊 那就檢調來查才是最真實的啊所以嘛 在你們民進黨官員的眼裡只要檢調沒有來查就代表沒有事喔納稅人的錢是這樣給你們花的喔檢調才是最客觀 如果真的有不法證據的話 我們都會配合啊"},{"start":637.244,"end":637.925,"text":"委員可以去去這個剪掉"},{"start":657.951,"end":670.96,"text":"對嘛!所以我就問你嘛!你們所謂的青年情象愛鄉土,你們的廉政倫理規範只有一條事啊!檢調沒有來查就沒有事!是這樣嗎?把標準講清楚嘛!對啊!有些客觀的證據不是提出來了!"},{"start":675.563,"end":688.131,"text":"這不是推論你有去沒有去然後你跟大家講說沒有還是跟大家講說你不記得對嘛你有去沒有去嘛對嘛你有去沒有去嘛連這麼簡單的問題都不敢回答喔你有去沒有去回答這個問題再往下嘛你連這個問題都不敢回答喔"},{"start":703.677,"end":704.238,"text":"好來我們時間到哈謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149406","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149406","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fd11febf2f4854001b97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a6161d917ad305b18e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"12:01:07 - 12:09:13","影片長度":"00:08:06","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":486,"end_time":"2024-03-06T12:09:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T12:01:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1104,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（12時1分）謝謝召委、與會同仁，請陸委會主委。"],["主席：有請邱主委，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員太三：召委好。"],["吳委員琪銘：主委好。主委辛苦了，108年的觀光消費已經出現了逆差，早上也有很多同仁都提起，現在我們的逆差，據我們統計，光是108年就超過66億，這樣對我們整個平等互惠的原則就產生了一個變數。本席這邊也請主委來說明，未來我們跟中國大陸、跟我們的對岸怎麼聯繫，才能達到我們的平等互惠原則？在國家利益為原則之下，我們要怎樣跟對方、我們的對岸做一個良善的溝通，以促進兩岸的交流？"],["邱主任委員太三：第一個，我們會同交通部在去年8月的新聞記者會裡面已經多次地表達，我想媒體也有報導，對方也有一些新聞的回應，也就是它已經知道我們所設定的，希望雙方能夠平等互惠、對等開放，當時就已經做了這樣的宣布，對岸也瞭解這樣的情事。後來我們也給一個月的雙方準備期或是其他的等等，當然在這裡面就透過業者也好，或者是相關的熱心人士也好，都有做彼此意願的詢答。但是一開始他們可能因為有一些考量或其他等等，並沒有明確地表達要談或不要談，所以才會導致拖延到現在。因為隨著臺灣的總統大選等等，對岸在這個議題上面就更加保守，所以才會有這樣的一個變化，特別是選後的變化。"],["吳委員琪銘：本席建議，是不是我們嘗試跟對岸來一個熱線溝通？因為國家整體的利益我們還是要守住，以及平等互惠的原則，我們還是要堅持我們的立場，是不是可以跟對岸講，對岸若要恢復，你看，剛才交通部長王國材在交通委員會，他還特別提到3月到5月有將近四千多團要到中國大陸，超過10萬人，我們已經釋出這個善意，是不是對方也要對我們釋出善意？這樣我們才能夠談下去，這個對整個兩岸的交流是一個很大的助益。"],["邱主任委員太三：我覺得委員的說法非常好，我希望對岸的政府也能夠看到委員這樣的說法，代表臺灣的民意到底怎麼樣在看待這件事情。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為我們國家的利益還是要守住。"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["吳委員琪銘：所以主委，這一點我們就針對問題來跟他們做溝通。現在變成早上還在講M503航線出現了變化，這部分請交通部次長來回答。"],["林次長國顯：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：好。主委，你先回座好了，你辛苦了。"],["林次長國顯：委員提到M503的變化？"],["吳委員琪銘：是。"],["林次長國顯：大陸在1月30號宣布2月1號起，M503的北向南航路本來是在M503上面偏西6海里來運作，但是2月1號以後就不偏西了，就回到原來的線上。第二個是開放122、123，122剛好就在馬祖附近，123在金門附近，原來是往西，現在它開放西往東飛，這個過程太過匆促，也沒有跟我們溝通。基本上，M503是過境航路，它有點像高速公路，從3萬呎要降到平面的話，它有一個過渡的階段，所以必須要跟我們的馬祖、金門的終端管制區做協商，這樣萬一有狀況的時候對飛航比較安全，所以我們希望大陸就這些事情也應該跟我們做善意的互動。這是一個事件，結合其他的事件，政府統一考慮既然目前都沒有善意的互動，那原定3月要開放的部分，我們就先開放3個月試行。像您剛提的讓大陸看到我們的善意，這3個月的善意有將近10萬人、四千多團，也希望他們在這段時間審慎的考慮，是不是開放大陸的自由行跟團客來臺灣，這樣比較正面的互動，是有利兩岸的溝通。"],["吳委員琪銘：基於M503，基於國家的安全，人民百姓大家出團的安全性，我們還是要堅持啦。最主要是我們也可以從觀光署的統計，在108年共有四百多萬人次到對岸去旅遊，在疫情後剩41萬下降了將近10倍。其實臺灣到各國旅遊的比例還是非常高，基於說我們兩岸互等的條件下，不管是我們交通部還是觀光署，是不是也是要充分的來做一個溝通。這是基於我們國家整個人民旅遊的安全性，還有旅遊的品質。"],["林次長國顯：對，委員講得非常的明確。"],["吳委員琪銘：我們還是要堅持。"],["林次長國顯：我們國人戶外旅遊當然安全第一，第二個我們也希望各地的外國觀光客都能夠來臺灣，基本上我們對其他國家沒有設限的原因是人家也沒有對我們設限，所以基本上我們希望是正面、雙方對等的互動，這個原則並沒有改變。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，我看現在變成我們的很多觀光都是透過媒體來傳述，由對方的媒體，那是不是有找出一個管道直接跟他們做溝通。基於種種的事情，不管在對岸也好，不管他們進來臺灣，但是現在的逆差還是蠻大，這一點就是我們要去突破的。"],["林次長國顯：是，謝謝委員。我們在大陸也有設辦事處，基本上大陸在臺灣也有派代表，所以官方多元都有，旅行業者也有，所以這個是多項多元的溝通。其實政府的態度很明確，我們是正面open，開放大陸旅遊來臺的，這個沒有問題。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為對我們臺灣旅行業有四千多家，也對他們不要造成太大的衝擊，畢竟旅行業最近幾年真的經營是蠻慘淡，我們也要站在他們的立場來思考這個問題。"],["林次長國顯：確實，疫情期間大家都非常辛苦，所以能存活下來都是非常優秀的業者。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，好，謝謝，謝謝次長。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：非常謝謝吳琪銘召委您的質詢，謝謝。也謝謝我們的次長跟副署長。好，我們現在來處理臨時提案，臨時提案總共只有一案，我們現在請宣讀。","有鑒於台東地理位置特殊，雖近年熱氣球嘉年華活動引起國人熱烈前往，然受限於交通往返，國內旅客仍佔多數。台東為觀光大縣，其觀光客群理應朝向多元發展，為有效解決國外旅客赴台東不便利性之問題，應可參考花蓮機場先前的包機直航模式，無論引進陸客、日本、韓國或東南亞旅客，係為協助台東觀光升級之動力，爰此要求陸委會及交通部應積極推展國際及兩岸團客觀光行程，並建請交通部編列相關預算整建台東機場，完善台東機場起降大型客機能量。","提案人：黃建賓　　徐欣瑩","連署人：牛煦庭　　高金素梅"],["主席：好，本案已經經過提案委員同意修正了，然後照剛才宣讀提案的內容，我們就讓它通過，好嗎？好，謝謝大家。繼續開會，請鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員來質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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12:00:57","影片長度":"00:11:04","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":664,"end_time":"2024-03-06T12:00:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T11:49:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1040,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（11時49分）謝謝主席，我們邀請陸委會主委還有交通部次長。"],["主席：好，我們請主委還有次長，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員太三：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：想要請教一下，部長去年明確表示3月1日確定解除禁團令，恢復兩岸的觀光旅遊，但是又在今年2月7日宣布要停止赴陸旅行團，所以這樣子的政治急轉彎不但造成旅遊業的虧損，還造成更多的民怨，隨後部長又再表示重啟禁團令是不得已的決定，是因為經過各部會的討論，也一再強調中方需要釋出善意才能恢復雙方的交流。最近發生金門的事故，兩岸緊張的關係再度升溫，如果是在沒有釋出善意的狀況下，這樣我們的禁團令要到什麼時候才能解除？這樣子的話，大家就是遙遙無期，想要請教這個問題。"],["邱主任委員太三：報告委員，因為那是交通部部長的部分，我是不是請次長回答。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，麻煩。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員。我們是希望能夠溝通業者及早準備，從去年8月就是這個態度，我們部長以前是希望業者知道既然有這個方向，請大家開始準備，可是今年以來有一些狀況，就是剛剛報告的，可能在外交上、在飛航路徑上都有一些我們認為不是很正面的互動。第二個，去年以來宣布希望能在今年3月左右準備開放，可是我們也等不到消息，一直到2月7日以前都沒有正面的回應，所以促使政府要再綜合考慮整個政策，所以我們在2月7日就先宣布3月1日到5月底已經組團的還是如期，5月以後的就併團或是提前，如果這段期間能夠得到善意的回應，我們會隨時檢討，所以還是有條件，也正面open來看這件事情。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以意思是說我們釋出善意，是別人不同意，我們就是照著別人的不同意，是這樣子嗎？所以是我們的決定還是別人的決定？"],["林次長國顯：應該說我們歡迎他們過來，但是如果一直都沒有，我們已經有開放自由行，一般民眾可以用自由行去參訪或是去旅遊，團客的部分到目前為止，因為大陸還沒有開放團客，我們就不對等開放。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們的規劃是他們開放我們才開放，他們不開放我們也不開放，是這樣子的意思嗎？"],["林次長國顯：對等互動、循序漸進，政策上是這樣，從去年8月開始就一直是這個態度。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以這個部分就是以他們來左右我們，是這樣子嗎？"],["林次長國顯：不是，我們也主動開放，希望他們能夠組團或是開放相關的自由行……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是陸委會早在去年8月就公布恢復兩岸觀光旅遊的規範，對於旅遊人數有限制2,000人，但是交通部於11月份表示到中國的團客不限人數，這樣子顯示兩個步調不同……"],["邱主任委員太三：報告委員，那是不同時期的評估，其依據也不一樣，2,000人是用2019年雙方都還在對等往來的時候，他們多少人到我們這邊來，我們用那個時候的總人數去平均計算得出2,000人，我們也提到將來如果有增加，我們也會隨時增加。過去兩岸在觀光的交流上，一開始是設定3,000人，接著放寬為4,000人，最後是5,000人，這個都是按照過去的往例。這個2,000人的估算是8月那一次的估算，用2019年到底多少陸客到我們這邊來，我們用這樣的基準來計算。當然11月份之後交通部也許根據旅行業者的反映什麼等等，他們可能覺得有彈性的必要，但是這個到最後都可以在跨部會的協商裡面再去做調整……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以還沒有跨部會協商就公布？所以……"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，它也沒有講多少人，它也沒有講多少人……"],["麥委員玉珍：它沒有限嘛？"],["邱主任委員太三：對，但是實際上要多少人，我們最後還是會跨部會協商，在還沒有跨部會協商之前，交通部他們期待，因為業者跟他們反映，他們一定會反映給相關部門，這最後還是可以再來做相關人數的討論，就像我剛剛提到的，過去一開始也是3,000人，再來變4,000人，再來變5,000人，所以都是隨著不同階段、不同的需求來評估。"],["麥委員玉珍：希望大家共同提出問題、解決問題，所以希望兩個大部會要同調，如果沒有、不同調的話，我們是跟著政府的步調走，這樣子我們觀光旅遊及旅客就沒辦法說是誰說了算，所以希望兩個部會要同調，這樣子大家才能好做事啦！"],["邱主任委員太三：好，謝謝委員的指教。"],["麥委員玉珍：另外，因為我們覺得兩個部會都講的不一致，但是在……"],["邱主任委員太三：不同時間點啦！"],["麥委員玉珍：對，不同時間點，這樣子的話「反起反倒」，我們要怎麼辦，對不對？我們要聽誰的？在2024年選前的時候就說要解禁兩岸觀光，但是現在又說6月份不能出團，剛才有聽說3月到5月要給大家出去，對不對？針對這個部分，讓我們覺得選前就是說開放，選後就要禁止……"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，委員，8月就講雙方對等，我們開放的時間點就是他們開放的時間點。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，但是開放的時間就是在……"],["邱主任委員太三：他們也對等開放。"],["麥委員玉珍：總統就職的時候嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：不，沒有，不是、不是！"],["麥委員玉珍：就是這段時間？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有、沒有，看他們什麼時候，因為當初也期待是不是儘快地在溝通之後越短的時間，只要他們開放，所以8月宣布，如果它9月就宣布他們的人要過來的話，那我們也可能9月就開始。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們就覺得會讓人誤會，就是選舉前是山盟海誓，選舉後是對你抱歉。"],["邱主任委員太三：事實上沒有，一開始就很清楚了。"],["麥委員玉珍：這樣子如此一來，讓我們覺得就是淪為政治買票，現在就是政治買票。"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有、沒有、沒有，一開始就很清楚，是對等的啦！一開始就講對等開放，他們開放，我們就開放。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，如果我們的主委是這麼說，我請教一下，開放的部分一直在強調他們開放，我們就開放；他們不開放，我們就不開放……"],["邱主任委員太三：8月份就這樣宣布。"],["麥委員玉珍：誰來做協商、誰來做溝通？是我們的官方跟對岸的官方來溝通嗎？還是誰來溝通才能達到開放？"],["邱主任委員太三：相關部門都會，交通部有交通部的，陸委會有陸委會的。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以陸委會直接跟對岸溝通嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：我們基本上是有幾個，比如海基會也是一個，至於其他的相關部門，包括我講白了，委員、台商等等，我們是有相關的單位會去探詢對岸的意思，到底願意不願意，所以交通部有交通部的……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以是別人溝通，就是部會……"],["邱主任委員太三：不是、不是，先探詢它有沒有這樣的意願，它的意願也許設定搞不好是1,000人而已，要先表達有意願……"],["麥委員玉珍：主委，是你去溝通嗎？還是聽說的，還是別人跟你說的？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是、不是、不是……"],["麥委員玉珍：溝通的過程……"],["邱主任委員太三：當然不會是我啦！當然不會是我啦！剛剛不是講嗎？兩岸其實過去三十幾年來，很多的事務上都已經建立了一個基本的機制……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以基本的機制就是……"],["邱主任委員太三：而這些基本的機制，有好多不同的……"],["麥委員玉珍：就是經過台旅會跟海旅會的溝通嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：那也是其中之一。"],["麥委員玉珍：他們是其中之一的溝通？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以回來跟你報告？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，海旅會……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你就聽他們說，還是怎麼樣？"],["邱主任委員太三：海旅會如果有訊息的話是跟交通部，因為他們是交通部……海旅會的性質由他們講。"],["林次長國顯：委員，我們是一個非常開放的社會，所以基本上業者們也會把我們的訊息帶過去。第二個，我們在媒體上，甚至在不同的場合都會用這樣的態度來對外說明。因此基本上對外是講說我們是開放的，也希望促成兩岸互動，所以我們才會留一個尾巴說，這段期間只要有任何正面的回應，我們都會繼續往開放的方向走。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，因為我們希望是有效的溝通管道，才能達到效益，不能是別人說的、哪一個會來說的，變成不是真正雙方去溝通，變成陸委會都是透過別的單位去溝通，這樣就會造成溝通不良，溝通不良的話，就造成沒辦法解決問題。"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以希望我們要透過有效的管道來溝通，因為一下可以、一下不可以，這樣子到最後誰來賠償、誰來負責？希望我們這邊要有雙方的溝通管道，要有效的溝通以及如何去溝通讓這件事情達成共識，才能讓不管是旅遊業者還是消費者有保障。以上報告，希望積極地推動，謝謝。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員的質詢，也謝謝主委、次長及副署長。","繼續我們請吳琪銘召委質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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不同時間點啊對 不同時間點這樣子的話換天換地我們要怎樣 對不對我們要聽誰的 對不對所以我們就想說在2024年選前的時候呢我們就說要解除"},{"start":384.309,"end":384.749,"text":"選前開放,選後禁止。"},{"start":409.106,"end":416.391,"text":"8月就講雙方對等,我們開放的時間點就是他們開放的時間點。對,但是開放的時間就是在說中共就職的時候嘛。沒有沒有沒有,看他們什麼時候,因為當初也期待是不是盡快的溝通之後,越短時間,只要他們開放,所以8月宣布,如果他9月就宣布說他們的人要過來的話,那我們也可能9月就"},{"start":434.063,"end":436.504,"text":"對,所以我們就覺得是說讓人家誤會就是說一開始就很清楚是對等的啦"},{"start":452.769,"end":464.202,"text":"一開始就講對等開放他們開放我們就開放所以如果是說我們的主委是這麼說再請教一下所以說這開放的部分一直在強調說他們開放我們開放他們不開放我們開放誰來做協調誰來做溝通"},{"start":470.429,"end":493.829,"text":"誰來去做這個部分就是我們的官方這邊跟對岸的官方來溝通嗎還是誰來溝通才能達到開放相關部門都會啦交通部有交通部的那陸委會有陸委會的所以陸委會直接在對岸溝通嗎我們基本上是有幾個啦比如說海際會也是一個啦那其他的相關部門跟包括"},{"start":494.869,"end":519.353,"text":"我講白了委員啦台商啦等等我們是有相關的單位會去探尋對岸的這樣的一個意思所以說別人溝通就是先探尋他的有沒有這樣的一個意願那意願他意願也許他設定搞不好是1000人而已或是這個還要再先表達你去溝通嗎還是聽說的還是別人跟你說的"},{"start":523.554,"end":535.084,"text":"當然不會是我啦當然不會是我啦因為我們剛剛不是講嗎兩岸其實過去30幾年來很多的事務上都已經建立了一個基本的機制"},{"start":536.739,"end":561.901,"text":"所以基本的基礎就是說就是經過海理會跟海理會的溝通那也是其中之一其中之一他們的溝通所以回來跟你報告所以你就聽他們說海理會如果有訊息的話是跟交通部因為他們是交通部海理會的性質由他們講還有兩位"},{"start":566.547,"end":584.703,"text":"我們是一個非常開放的社會所以基本上業者們也會把我們的訊息帶過去第二個我們在媒體上甚至在不同的場合都會用這樣的態度來對外說明所以基本上對外是講說我們是開放的那也希望促成兩岸互動"},{"start":585.804,"end":604.402,"text":"所以我們才會留一個尾巴說這段期間只要有任何正面的回應我們都會繼續往開放方向走是因為我們希望是說有效的溝通管道才能達到的效力不能是說別人說的哪一個會來說的變成不是我們是真真的我們去"},{"start":605.697,"end":607.84,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":623.718,"end":651.46,"text":"希望說我們就是要有效的管道來溝通因為現在等一下就可以等一下不可以這樣子到最後誰來賠償誰來負責所以希望說我們這邊的就是要有雙方溝通的管道要有讓有效的溝通還有就是如何去溝通讓這件事情達成共識才能讓說不管是旅遊業者還是消費者才有保障"},{"start":652.06,"end":652.982,"text":"吳清明州委"}]}},{"id":"149404","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149404","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f815fe36f5c002c75b97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a6406ad159c90c35735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"11:39:03 - 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結果當然吵那個吊詐"},{"start":393.2,"end":396.303,"text":"總幹事還說幾個月我們自己拿錢去交貨我只是說這算什麼可以拿去做的事情是我們公安局不夠狹窄的不是你們公安局狹窄的那是地安黨有狹窄的可能啦可能一個原因就是什麼算了算了"},{"start":418.394,"end":421.975,"text":"所以我覺得這種惡習一直在存在我會覺得政府要讓我們明確保障到國人旅遊的權利以及我們國人的一些文化交流的權利"},{"start":441.042,"end":466.623,"text":"對啦,我是覺得這一定要給我們做一個比較好的一個報告給委員報告齁,我們自由行沒有金,但是團課的部分本來是希望開放嘛所以因為他們對方沒有給我們善意的回應但是我們也是說3月1號到5月31號還是讓原來的組團進去降低大家的這個不方便這一段期間希望他們能有善意的回應啦"},{"start":466.903,"end":468.223,"text":"五二零以後的事情看未來的"},{"start":491.252,"end":499.274,"text":"所以我聽到你講的,人家520反省喔,人家520不就讓人家520再選好這件事,你當那個總統還沒起來,你就把他選好這?我們希望把路破好,如果順利,我們繼續走,如果沒有順利,當然到時候要調整。這樣,你們想法這樣有什麼,其實齁,"},{"start":518.28,"end":521.422,"text":"其實你們的可能啦,我們都尊重啦,但是齁,我們是依依說若驕啦,我們是依依說我們這個旅遊若驕,他們的權利啦,真的,我就像剛才說的,當進行疫情的時候,我們這個若驕已經犧牲很多,多了很多經歷,讓他們現在有機會可以給他們複製,我們希望說,當這個"},{"start":544.215,"end":563.159,"text":"其實去大陸會議員的人是很多的我們說這個也可以討論的好山好水好風景和我們台灣一樣大家也希望去看一樣的一個民族和不同的風景這樣也很多人大家希望去看我們不要拋開那個政治立場"},{"start":571.02,"end":571.32,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":589.25,"end":589.47,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":609.316,"end":612.3,"text":"主委阿里來說可以跟交通部再次的一個大家溝通一下以我們的國人的權利為重感謝主席"}]}},{"id":"149403","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149403","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f8bd706e6aade18bcb97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a66b39a8e8f8d8ca115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"11:27:26 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這就是本席我認為你們第一個沒有跟我們國內的觀光業者充分去溝通因為觀光業者他們的想法是說這是這個有跟針對觀光發展觀光條例第53條是僅限於對旅行業經營的管理它是應該是沒有辦法擴張到禁止旅行團組團去某一些區域是不是已經逾越法定的一些規定你們的想法是不是已經逾越了法定的規定"},{"start":142.048,"end":161.86,"text":"跟委員報告,《發展觀光條例》第66條,要求授權給交通部,就是目的世界主管機關,訂定相關的管理規則。所以我們在《旅行業管理規則》裡面第49條有相關的規定。那我請問母法的部分是不是因為會有損國家利益?母法是第66條,授權給交通部訂定,66條。"},{"start":165.7,"end":167.746,"text":"那你剛剛講的那個是法則的部分跟相關的後果對"},{"start":172.628,"end":198.721,"text":"所以本席要了解是說因為當時你們跟我們所有的觀光旅行業者是說用觀光發展條例第53條這新聞上都可以查得到說有損及國家的利益啊那現在你們是改口說不是用這條嗎跟委員報告53條裡面有三項嘛裡面有一項是損害國家利益損害國家利益因為還沒有還不確定因素發生所以我們是用第66條授權的部分"},{"start":200.642,"end":216.017,"text":"我認為這樣就是法令的無限的擴張所以本席這邊要拜託我們交通部這邊如果旅行業者如果真的去帶團去大陸旅遊如果真的有損及國家的利益的話"},{"start":216.598,"end":217.078,"text":"請問我們次長的部分"},{"start":237.726,"end":253.224,"text":"這個有關於這個觀光旅行業者其實有強烈跟你們表達說當你們3月份開放以後3、4、5、6月尤其4、5、6月它是一個檔期喔很多的觀光業者其實6月份的時候都已經下訂了不管是機票以及大陸的這個"},{"start":253.985,"end":254.265,"text":"主席"},{"start":274.539,"end":288.717,"text":"跟委員報告我是不是請觀光署跟您報告一下基本上3月到5月我們讓他如期出團那6月6月跟7月如期6月份他可以提前出團或是併團那如果有辦法提前出團的話要如何補償這些旅行觀光業者的損失"},{"start":290.489,"end":316.187,"text":"那損失大概估計多少錢?要用什麼樣的經費來去支付?跟委員做一個說明,那3月到5月的部分,我們目前掌握大概是有4000團。我說6月份,不好意思。那6月部分的話,他現在有三個政策。第一個是說,他可以併到3月到5月的這個部分。如果不能併的話,大概有多少?第二個部分是可以,就是說到改變其他的目的地。那第三個就是可以退費解約。解約的損失是誰來補償?"},{"start":318.291,"end":321.354,"text":"臺灣的觀光業者沒有辦法接受的地方,這些解約需要旅行業者自行負擔。"},{"start":334.524,"end":351.895,"text":"旅行業者當時已經有在記者會裡面講了他們不排除520的時候來去賴清德總統的就職典禮來給他祝賀來表達他們強烈的訴求那我希望的是說請這個次長的部分一定要跟觀光旅行業者"},{"start":352.695,"end":373.866,"text":"來做一個很好的溝通跟討論好好的來去補償不要讓這些觀光旅行業者他們沒有辦法得到訴求而在賴清德總統520就職典禮那一天來去做一個恭賀的行為我覺得這是非常不當的所以拜託希望說這個次長這邊因為今天部長不在是不是可以保證我可以做個好好的溝通520的時候不會發生這樣的事情"},{"start":376.505,"end":395.824,"text":"跟委員報告,觀光署在2月19日有找業者來溝通基本上也要讓業者知道這是兩邊互動的一個過程因為是為了長久旅遊跟觀光發展的長治久安所以我們也期待在3月到5月之間如果陸方有善意的回應,能夠開放團客進來其實這個我們也可以繼續延續下去"},{"start":399.648,"end":422.757,"text":"所以還是要拜託次長因為這邊你目前為止還是沒有一個明確的回答我說不管是6月份旅行業者的損失或是7、8月份有些特殊地方他們的訂金是如何去做補償所以我想以這樣的回答觀光業者是不會不太會妥協也不太會認同所以520的部分我希望你在520的時候不要像本席講的沒有辦法完成這件事情"},{"start":423.297,"end":442.865,"text":"那最後也要跟你報告因為今天我們的部長不在其實部長在108年的時候其實有代理過這個交通部長所以我也要跟你這邊有一個統計數字跟你報告在108年的時候臺灣去大陸的旅客人次是230萬人次"},{"start":445.186,"end":469.826,"text":"大陸來台灣的旅客是將近180萬人次所以我們的邱部長、次長你們應該非常了解其實過去在疫情之前兩岸的旅遊觀光是非常的順暢的所以我希望說部長這邊跟次長這邊可以盡量來努力回復疫情之前兩岸的觀光旅遊的問題好那現在我是不是也可以請我們的主委一起來我有些事要跟你們兩個請問一下"},{"start":472.407,"end":490.836,"text":"這邊就是我要特別請到兩位都可以一起回答這邊就跟你們請教因為你們現在限制我們台灣可以組團到大陸去旅遊是限制到5月31號所以是拜託部長、次長跟我們敬愛的主委你們是不是可以組一團到大陸去旅遊"},{"start":491.836,"end":509.527,"text":"順便大家說見面三分情有旅遊就有溝通有溝通就可以大家可以更順暢的去去來做一個未來兩岸的主席不好意思我可以再兩岸如果有溝通如果你們願意有來開放組團由交通部長跟我們的"},{"start":510.467,"end":538.29,"text":"主委組一個團到我們大陸去觀光順便去溝通討論未來兩岸的部分要如何來促進像疫情之前的順利的話是不是請部長、次長還有我們主委我們組一個團來做一個兩岸破冰之旅請兩位回答你如果願意組團我願意報名參加我大概事實上過去這30幾年我去大陸大概快要20次以上了"},{"start":538.888,"end":550.357,"text":"那我請問一下,從疫情之後你有去大陸過嗎?沒有對啊,那我的意思是說,既然我們都已經開放了,從3月到5月31號可以開放,那我們是不是請次長也來回答一下?"},{"start":556.718,"end":579.331,"text":"有沒有這樣的考慮為了我們臺灣兩岸其實我們是沒有禁止自由行去大陸所以我們是可以去參觀那現在問題是他沒有開放團客重點是我的意思是說就是因為沒有開放團客尤其交通部他的一直的表述是說我們就是等待善意的等待陸方這邊的回應所以我認為可以主動出擊"},{"start":583.073,"end":583.514,"text":"我們有邀請他們的彩線團來臺灣"},{"start":605.81,"end":619.996,"text":"我請教一下有沒有辦法去大陸去做一個旅行團因為是可以開放團客去大陸嘛有沒有辦法開放就組一個團由次長跟主委組一個團去大陸做參訪"},{"start":622.575,"end":641.694,"text":"我想這個可能你先去了解一下對岸如果願意讓我去我是所以你不排斥嗎我不是不排斥我剛剛講你如果組得成的話我報名你的團因為我跟你講我們是民意代表是監督單位你們有行政權所以你不排斥嗎我不是不排斥我很樂觀其成"},{"start":643.171,"end":666.548,"text":"我不是不排斥而已最後還是要拜託我們的主委因為其實我跟您報告剛剛有報告這個人數其實台灣去大陸的人次從疫情之前是有230萬人所以就算你沒有辦法台灣沒辦法開放團客還是有非常多的台灣的人會去大陸所以請你們一定要好好來處理這件事情保障台灣人到大陸旅遊的安全可以嗎"},{"start":667.008,"end":667.048,"text":"張智倫委員"}]}},{"id":"149402","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149402","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f3302c4d55fd316e38e47b20f39b04ac8f8ba9b0039caa7a60e4b2c360d55b1ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:50:30 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12:00:46","影片長度":"00:10:16","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":616,"end_time":"2024-03-06T12:00:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T11:50:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1124,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時50分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請國發會龔主委以及國土區域離島發展處的黃處長？"],["主席：好，請兩位。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：我想主委很清楚，台積電的封測廠目前考量應該是在嘉義太保市的科學園區，而且也經過一段時間的努力，包括環境影響評估的部分，大概都布局的差不多了，現在就等台積電對外點頭，是不是這樣？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，沒有錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，主委，我想這個要很感謝啦！很感謝包括國發會、經濟部及整個行政院，事實上這一次台積電封測廠擇址在嘉義這個地方，對於整個行政團隊我們很感謝，但是我們也知道，要因應這樣一個先進的封裝廠到來，事實上還需要很多基礎設施的布局，這我想主委一定都很清楚，所以這個布局也包括未來，這個先進封測很厲害，主委是不是能介紹一下先進封測？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為它是比較先進、前端的，它不是成熟的，是CoWoS那個部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：CoWoS嘛。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：3D封測嘛。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：等於未來晶圓可以和其他不同晶圓的計算模式……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，不同的晶片，把它封裝在一起。"],["蔡委員易餘：包成同一個，然後用立體式的方式，讓這個晶圓的運算能力更多元。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，沒有錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：而且它不會產生更多的熱去影響到它整個運算，所以台積電很厲害。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以它的……"],["蔡委員易餘：這樣的封測廠要設在嘉義，所以我們可以想像，主委，大家都在說的一奈米那畢竟是比較未來的事情，現在重點我們應該把它放在封測這樣的一個概念，如果是封測的話，未來就有很多先進製程會進來太保，會進來嘉義科學園區，因為它必須要做最後的封測、封裝，對不對？所以未來包括橋科、南科，他們這些晶圓就要運到嘉義做封裝，最後再出口。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這樣說起來運輸就很重要了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：嘉義未來就會是整個晶圓最終要出口前的最後一站，是不是這樣？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，高階的部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：高階晶圓，因為熊本那邊就不是嘛，可是在嘉義這就很重要。南科的高階晶圓，像橋科、高雄這邊，都會運來這裡，所以交通的問題我想請主委有機會跟交通部再談一下，你們再談一下，我們嘉義的交通還有什麼可以加強的。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：這個facility本來就是要先準備好。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，我們現在就是要準備，因為我們可以想像，這是一個趨勢，未來一奈米落腳在哪裡，我們不知道，可是未來的一奈米先進製程，最後還是得跑來嘉義，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：它也是要有這個封裝、封測的一個過程，所以拜託主委這邊用國發會、用比較上位的一個角度，跟交通部溝通、談一下。好，既然要談，我就提出了一個比較具體的建議，就是現在我們這些晶圓，剛才佳濱在我前面先質詢了，他說未來的出口，我們這個先進的晶圓要出口就是一個很重要的導向，但是要出口，我們就發現了，從嘉義的水上機場、臺南的機場、花蓮、臺東的機場，事實上有部分是軍民合用的機場，小港機場也一樣，而南部的機場有一個最大的問題就是宵禁，臺灣沒有宵禁的機場大概就只有桃園機場，所以目前我們所有的貨運，像台積電這種要快速運送的，大概都要跑到桃園去，運送成本太高，如果未來像我剛剛所講的，先進製程的部分都要先在嘉義完成它的封測跟封裝的話，主委，我覺得我們嘉義水上機場如果以它的先天條件，在它旁邊還有很大的一塊腹地，我們這個腹地包括它的跑道長度也可以檢討，目前嘉義的跑道長度跟臺南已經是一樣大的，甚至比小港還要長、比花蓮也還要長，跑道長度是夠的，旁邊周圍的腹地也夠，我們要不要來考慮正式把嘉義水上機場提升，未來以貨運為導向，然後貨機（cargo）可以瞬間以最快的、最短的運送成本，以最快速的方式把晶圓的一些製品運送到各國去，我們是不是可以朝這方面來做一個布局？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，委員，跟剛剛鍾委員一樣，就是南部可能要有一個這樣的機制。"],["蔡委員易餘：對。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：設在哪裡我想我們再跟交通部來討論一下。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然、當然，你們去談一下。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為還有一些相關的配套條件。"],["蔡委員易餘：只要變成了國際的一個cargo機場，最重要就是要取消宵禁，但取消宵禁我們也知道會面對居民……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：附近居民。"],["蔡委員易餘：附近居民要用心去溝通，因為要讓這些居民接受，所以我現在要跟你們說的是，相對其他地方，嘉義有一個優勢，我們這叫做落後的優勢，我們那裡人比較少，若是小港那裡，人很多，那可能就難處理。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：這是我們落後的優勢，我們那裡的人現在比較少，所以我們認為既然未來要談交通，我們就有這個優勢，你們就評估一下，事實上這個部分如果有辦法有一個國際機場，當然在那附近的人會complain，他們會說這樣我們又要限建了，我們這裡的房地產要漲可能機會就少了，因為就在機場旁邊，可是對於周遭的發展就不一樣了，它就變成一個以貨運……當然現在貨運也是，客運是附帶的嘛，因為飛機都是同一架去飛的，合併在一起，所以這也是未來一個很好、可以看得見的趨勢。像新加坡航空公司運送晶圓，賺大錢啦！這是去年底的一個新聞，新加坡航空公司因為載送晶圓，在全國缺晶圓的時候他們就賺大錢，所以我覺得主委這部分你們來打算一下，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好，我們來跟相關部會討論一下。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，第二個，時間剩很短了，我再講到這個布袋三港，跟主委講好幾次了，事實上你對這裡的環境也都很清楚，我們現在所有布袋周邊的港，因為外傘頂洲漂沙的問題，讓我們整個布袋的漁港或者是東石所有的漁港，事實上都沒有符合法定應該要到達的漁港深度，疏浚也疏不完，我們現在每年都差不多花4,000萬，布袋、東石這邊要做疏浚，事實上怎麼疏都緩不濟急，而且這樣漁民要出港去討海，那裡太淺了，如果有時候打到漁船就會翻船，那是一個風險。","所以我具體建議，我們在東石白水湖南側這裡過去有一個潟湖，就是過去祖先在曬鹽的地方，這片非常的大，那我具體建議我們來做填砂造陸，像過去我們布袋海埔新生地、東石海埔新生地也是填砂造陸，我現在框起來的這塊比布袋的海埔新生地還要大，我們這一個區塊來考慮填砂造陸，把這些砂都移來這裡，然後至少暫時性讓這些漁港可以出入平安，這個也是要……龔主委，你也是站在上位階，整個臺灣國土必須可以有效的規劃，像這個可以來做一個評估嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好，我們再來……"],["蔡委員易餘：因為這是以前的潟湖嘛！就是以前祖先在曬鹽的地方，現在因為曬鹽不划算，沒有人在曬鹽了，所以這塊放在這裡閒置，你看閒置多久了？這裡過去也有部分在養蚵仔，不過越來越淺，養蚵仔也漸漸變少了，所以這塊就沒用了，我們來給它填砂造陸，這樣好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好，因為這個還牽涉到造陸以後它的用途是什麼……"],["蔡委員易餘：沒關係，那是很以後的事情，你造陸就要讓它土壤夯實，那個要很久的時間，至少我們先找一個地方，也看得到未來性，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，拜託主委，謝謝，辛苦了！"],["主席：謝謝。接下來我們請黃國昌委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","林岱樺","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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所以主委我想這個要很感謝很感謝包括我們國發會、經濟部、整個行政院事實上在於這一次台積電封測場在擇址然後在嘉義這個地方我們對於整個行政團隊我們很感謝但是我們也知道"},{"start":87.085,"end":99.2,"text":"因為要因應這樣的一個先進封裝廠要來,事實上還需要很多基礎設施的佈局,所以我相信主委一定都很清楚。所以這個佈局包括說,未來這個先進封測"},{"start":104.867,"end":105.027,"text":"蔡易餘議員"},{"start":120.299,"end":120.579,"text":"所以這台機電是做厲害的"},{"start":138.303,"end":138.804,"text":"蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘"},{"start":157.682,"end":175.221,"text":"他會進來太保會進來嘉義科學園區因為他必須要做最後的封測封裝嘛 對不對所以未來就是說包括橋科包括南科他們家的晶圓就要運到嘉義然後做封裝然後最後再出口對"},{"start":175.942,"end":176.462,"text":"蔡易餘蔡易餘"},{"start":206.502,"end":207.884,"text":"稍後來的稍後來的稍後來的稍後來的稍"},{"start":233.223,"end":251.905,"text":"他也要有這個封裝封測的一個過程所以這是一個拜託主委家用國安會用比較上位的一個角度跟交通部溝通拔這個好 既然要拔我就提出了一個比較具體的建議就是說現在我們這裡的經緣多少多少嘉賓都在我前面先諮詢了"},{"start":253.106,"end":275.496,"text":"他就說未來的出口我們這個先進的一些晶圓要出口就是一個很重要的一個導向但是要出口我們就發現了哇從嘉義的水上機場臺南的機場花蓮臺東的機場事實上這個有部分是軍民合用的機場小港機場也一樣事實上南部的機場有一個最大的問題就是宵禁"},{"start":277.352,"end":292.283,"text":"和桃園機場,台灣沒有宵禁的機場大概就只有桃園機場所以目前咧,我們所有的會員求集中台這間機場的要快速運送的大概都要跑到桃園去,運送成本太高"},{"start":293.463,"end":322.202,"text":"那如果咧,如果未來像我剛才所說的這樣我們的先進製程的,說要先在嘉義完成它的封測跟封裝的話我覺得主委,咱嘉義水上機場如果以它的先天條件,它在旁邊還有很大的一個腹地我們這個腹地咧,包括說以這個跑道的長度可以檢測目前嘉義的跑道長度已經跟台南是一樣大的,比小港還要長比花蓮也還要長,跑道長度是夠的"},{"start":323.632,"end":331.309,"text":"那這一個旁邊的周圍的戶地也夠那我們要不要來考慮正式把嘉義水上機場"},{"start":333.159,"end":353.814,"text":"把他提升未來以貨運為導向然後以貨機然後可以飛到瞬間可以最快的最短的成本運送成本最快速的把這樣的晶圓的一些製品運送到各國去咱是不是可以朝這方面來做一個佈局"},{"start":355.263,"end":379.499,"text":"對,委員剛剛跟總委員一樣就是可能南部要有一個這樣的一個機制啦對設在哪裡我想我們再跟交通部來當然當然,所以你們要去拼啦你們去拼因為第一這個只要變成了國際的一個卡古機場啦最重要就是要取消宵禁啊取消宵禁呢我們也知道說會面對居民附近居民這要用心去溝通因為這些居民要讓他們接受"},{"start":384.122,"end":389.19,"text":"所以我現在要跟你們說,相對其他地方,這裡有一個優勢,我們這叫做落後的優勢,我們這裡人比較少"},{"start":393.696,"end":394.196,"text":"蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘"},{"start":414.466,"end":433.391,"text":"他們說我們如果要現建,我們這房地產要走可能也有機會就借給基金賓可是對於周遭的一個發展那就不一樣了他就變成一個以貨運當然有貨運當然現在貨運也是客運是減的因為都廢棄工一家這樣賣去的減作費所以這也是一個很好的一個未來可以看得見的一個趨勢"},{"start":443.614,"end":460.804,"text":"你像新加坡的那個新加坡航空公司跟運送晶圓賺大錢啦這是去年底的一個新聞嘛跟新加坡航空公司的因為載送晶圓他在那個全國在缺晶圓的時候一直賺大錢"},{"start":462.211,"end":483.355,"text":"所以我覺得主委這部分你來拍一張這樣好不好?好,我們來跟相關部會討論一下好,那在第二個啦,時間是很短的,我就在講啦那講到了這個事實上布袋勒,布袋三港這個含住於宮古亞邊,事實上你對這裡的環境也都很清楚啦"},{"start":483.775,"end":499.569,"text":"那我們現在所有布袋周邊的港因為外山頂洲的飄沙的一個問題讓我們整個布袋的漁港或者是東石所有的漁港事實上都沒有符合法定應該要到達的漁港的一個深度"},{"start":500.843,"end":501.044,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":516.343,"end":539.57,"text":"那是一個風險,所以我具體建議啦,我們在於東石白水湖南側這裡有一個過去的一個溪湖,就是過去的柏嶼,祖先的柏嶼的地方,這片非常大,那我具體建議我們來做田沙造路,像過去我們布地那邊是新地,"},{"start":541.271,"end":561.118,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":561.77,"end":573.418,"text":"這也是要主委說主委你也是站在上位階整個國土的一個台灣整個國土必須要可以有效的規劃像這個可以來做一個評估嗎?有這個比較大的市府嘛"},{"start":578.542,"end":578.562,"text":"對阿"},{"start":597.763,"end":607.251,"text":"好,因為這個還牽涉到趙祿以後他的用途是什麼?沒關係,那是很重要的事情,你趙祿你就要讓他土壤夯死,要很久的時間。至於這個我們找一個地方也看得到未來性,好不好?好,主委拜託,謝謝,辛苦。"}]}},{"id":"149401","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149401","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f008a19d8658b9fca1e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a6dd52469047ee03f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:41:33 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11:56:36","影片長度":"00:15:03","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":903,"end_time":"2024-03-06T11:56:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T11:41:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1096,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時41分）主席、各位大家午安喔！是不是請我們的許部長？"],["主席：好，請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好，好久不見！這是我重新回到衛環委員會第二次質詢，看到你很開心，我可以站在這裡，我也很開心！","我要請教你第一件事情，請教一下，你知道印度14億人口裡面，會講英語的大概有幾percent？"],["許部長銘春：這個……"],["林委員淑芬：你不知道？你MOU都簽下去了、要評估輸入了，結果你不知道？"],["許部長銘春：我這裡有資料，但是我沒有……"],["林委員淑芬：你的署長都還在那邊查詢，我跟你說，人家都告訴你答案了，你連看都沒有看過。清大印度中心副主任方天賜他說，許多人誤以為印度人都會講英語，雖然他們官方語言是印度語跟英語，可是事實上全印度會講英語的人口，大概只有10%，所以未來在語言翻譯上，將會是一項關鍵的成本。署長，你不用再查了，我已經跟你說了，是10%。此外，你們一方面說，先鎖定東北部7省邦，但外交部昨天的記者會又重申，只要符合資格的都可以來臺灣，所以你的發言和外交部內容上有所不同。"],["許部長銘春：關於來源地區，將來我們會在工作層級會議來討論。"],["林委員淑芬：我的意思是說，印度是一個非常多元族群的國家，我們政府要開放這項輸入的政策，真的要有相當程度的瞭解。在印度使用的語言中，1萬人以上使用的語言有122種！122種！為什麼講這個呢？是因為這個準備的工作很龐雜，你們去簽MOU、你們去跟印度談，然後你們在國內要有準備工作、工作籌備會議等等，你們必須要討論的是，如何協助雇主乃至於全臺灣社會跟印度移工之間的文化適應，還有將可能面對的衝突，而不是把一個好的東西，甚至可能是外交突破或者是移工政策變成外交危機啊！有沒有可能？當然是有可能的。","根據你們自己的移工管理及運用調查統計報告，就在你們勞動部自己做的報告裡面，你知道嗎？你們自己做的有效樣本是8,562份，事業單位雇主有4,534份，家庭雇主有4,028份，而事業單位雇主在管理和運用移工時，有44%都曾遭遇過困擾，其中最大的困擾是什麼你知道嗎？署長你知道嗎？因為部長一看就是不知道。"],["蔡署長孟良：語言溝通。"],["許部長銘春：語言！"],["林委員淑芬：語言不通！幾percent你知道嗎？就是事業單位雇主方面，有幾percent？你不知道？那是你們自己做的報告，結果你們卻不知道？真的還假的？68.2%啦！再來就是發生逃跑失聯，有34%；再來是溝通困難，如配合度不高等，有27.4%。這是你們自己做的報告，這是事業單位雇主方面。家庭雇主方面，遇到困擾的有35.7%，困擾的原因中，語言不通的有56.1%，居高。","所以我們今天要談的是，的確語言溝通困難這個事實是存在的，而且雇主這幾十年來一致都認為這是最大的障礙之一啊！臺灣印度研究協會在去年你們表示政策開放的時候也有發表聲明，他們表示支持循序漸進的開放印度移工，希望政府相關單位成立專家諮詢小組，匯集民間的意見，進一步去規劃引進印度移工的配套措施，要正確的理解印度社會的特色跟臺印關係的重要性，但是你們也說未來要透過共同審議、研議，然後循序漸進、務實辦理。現在請問一下，有沒有具體擬定工作方向？有沒有要聘請專家成立專家諮詢小組？籌組的專家諮詢小組有沒有開過會？還是該小組已經成立了？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們已經成立，然後3月1號也開過會。"],["林委員淑芬：開過會了，那你們聘請的專家諮詢小組是真的專家還是你們內部會議邀請專家來？"],["許部長銘春：外交部提供給我們的印度專家，即外交部有給我們建議的名單。"],["林委員淑芬：所以是你們的工作層級會議，還是你們內部的會議？"],["許部長銘春：我們的工作層級會議目前還沒有……"],["林委員淑芬：是你們的準備會議邀請了外部的專家？"],["許部長銘春：對，是供諮商的，我們現在會有諮詢小組。"],["林委員淑芬：比例有多高？署長。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為我們現在遴聘……"],["林委員淑芬：專家在你們整體會議……"],["蔡署長孟良：就是在印度方面比較有瞭解的，像一些學者，這裡面也有包含過去對印度比較熟悉的台商……"],["林委員淑芬：我在問你的比例啦！你們行政人員占了九成九，然後邀請一個專家也算是有邀請專家啊！"],["蔡署長孟良：基本上我們都是邀請專家學者，然後還有相關部會代表一起來討論。"],["林委員淑芬：好。我現在在這裡要跟部長分享，因為這是一個新開發的市場，部長，我現在不問你這個問題，你們不用在那邊竊竊私語了，我要請你專心聽，因為新聞報導說你留任的機率很高，所以我們未來的勞工政策還是要仰賴於你。但我現在有一個大的東西要談，數十年來從開放外勞到現在，大家都覺得這是錯誤的引進政策，都已經來不及改了，剛才人家質詢問你直聘的時候，你也覺得現在的狀況已經很難走回頭路、很難再改了，所以過去錯誤的外勞引進政策，比如說國家退位、沒有政府，引進純粹都靠外勞仲介，引進來後又語言不通、專業不專業、沒有技能的訓練，這些問題都丟給雇主，所以整體的外勞政策就是由雇主和仲介去承擔，國家都只負責收錢而已。","針對過去錯誤的外勞引進政策，這是一個最好的導正時機，因為人家質疑你開放這個市場、引進這個市場，是不是因為有另一批提供人力的仲介業者有龐大的利益、機會？然後你又要如何避免這個純粹只是造福仲介業者而已？如果照過去錯誤的引進外勞政策，對啊！沒錯啊！訓練也是仲介啊！然後中間的剝削、中間不當的管理、沒有專業訓練，然後丟給雇主承擔。今天這一個對印度開放印度勞工的模式，是一個好的契機，以前從來沒做過，所以我們MOU要簽的時候，我們現在國對國要談的時候，我認為你們移工政策要檢討的好契機就是在這裡。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["林委員淑芬：國對國的直聘。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["林委員淑芬：我們弱化私人仲介，負起國家責任，而國家要做到什麼責任？雖然你們有談到印度要負起語言訓練等等的責任，但不管是印度或臺灣，我們要負起幾個責任，包括生活語言的訓練、專業的培養，當然要杜絕移工被剝削，只有移工不被嚴重地剝削，他才能夠安心地、穩定地在臺灣就業。同時也要解決雇主的問題，因為你們前端沒做好，然後他就要承擔所有跟移工吵架、語言不通等等的困擾，所以國家要承擔起這個責任。","所以現行的狀況，我們大家都知道，錯誤的引進政策裡面，你說要有直聘，可是97%都是委託仲介，不要忘了，你應該知道RBA，RBA他們對於國際品牌其實做了一些稽核，臺灣的供應鏈也接受了稽核，臺灣有哪些廠已經說他們要對移工採零付費模式？就是老闆說他們自己來吸收，有哪幾個廠？你不知道嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有啦！但是我們沒有記那個廠的名稱，我知道我們臺灣有啦！像蘋果供應鏈都有，但是你問我公司名稱的話，我並沒有在記那個。"],["林委員淑芬：RBA的行為準則為電子業和它的供應鏈制定了規範，它當然是拿那些有品牌形象的、國際形象的、有能力的大廠、大牌先開刀，其實它的目的是要確保員工安全的工作環境、有尊嚴、接受尊重的工作，而且要符合環保規範、符合商業的誠信道德，所以我們的企業，當然是大企業，也願意實施移工零付費模式了，在這種狀況裡面，世界爭相競逐印度輸出的勞動力，勢必也是要比各國勞動的就業環境，人家也是要比較一下啊！","你知道RBA說要稽核你以後，臺灣的一些企業就說我要實施移工零付費模式，對此，人家批評了一句話，什麼話你知道嗎？就是政府比不上一個國際的NGO啦！你有辦法做到零剝削嗎？移工零付費嗎？你有做到對移工的專業訓練、生活語言訓練嗎？都沒有！現在一個RBA、非官方的機構，人家讓我們臺灣企業帶頭來做。","部長，我要跟你講這個事不是說你比不上RBA，而是這個未來一定會成為趨勢，而且一定會朝向這個方向，所以這些類似企業的基本責任，也要朝這個方向走，這是一個好的時機，就是你印度開放輸入的模式應該要將過去錯誤的引進政策予以導正，做一個好的檢討，比較像是以色列的模式，由印度政府負責培訓，主席，我最後講一下以色列模式，雖然我還有其他要講……"],["主席：好，因為待會要……"],["林委員淑芬：以色列模式是由印度政府負責培訓，訓練內容要由輸入國來提出，而且我們要針對過去可能被詬病的環節去予以扭轉，比如說韓國將語言基本能力測驗列為基本選工標準，進階的技能檢定它沒有強制，但是它有這個要求；入境以後要提供基本訓練；希望能夠依職類開設相關的職訓和中文課程，其實不只是顧到我們而已，也要有利於移工來臺以後職場及生活的適應，而他適應了對雇主也是好的。而且在積極作為上，移工來臺以後，我們甚至還可以推動，如果你返回印度後，我們是不是可以引薦你回到印度的臺企裡面去工作，優先引用、進用，以增進兩國經濟人才的交流，還有增進兩國的外交的情誼和合作的關係。我剛剛講的是國對國的引進、負起政府的責任、政府要扛起更多要應負責的訓練，不要跟過去一樣，覺得都跟你無關，你只收那個4,500，現在還沒有調漲吧？"],["許部長銘春：現在是2,000，然後如果你是3K五級制就再加上去。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！你們就安基金那一筆是要繳多少錢？"],["許部長銘春：就安經費，每個移工不是每月2,000塊嗎？"],["林委員淑芬：多少錢？"],["許部長銘春：雇主繳的啊！"],["林委員淑芬：多少錢？我只是問多少錢，又沒有講到那個。"],["蔡署長孟良：一般製造業2,000塊。"],["林委員淑芬：不要只有收錢啦！我的意思是說，要扛起這個政府的責任，然後國對國直聘，可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這個也是我們未來工作層級會議中的一個重點。"],["林委員淑芬：我想現在在場的委員都會支持，我們支持印度模式成為未來模式的示範，然後導正過去錯誤的政策，印度模式就從國對國直聘，弱化私人仲介從中巧立名目來剝削移工的機會來做起，然後也證明你不是為了人力仲介業去開發這個市場，可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林淑芬委員。我們現在處理臨時提案，總計5案，請一併宣讀。","一、","案由：鑑於勞動部倉促決議並主導我國與印度完成簽署「促進僱用引進印度勞工暸解備忘錄MOU」，引發民眾恐慌、社會譁然，且，經查勞動部部內擬定跨國勞動力政策的「跨國勞動力政策協商諮詢小組」，過去兩年並無任何有關印度移工引進的相關「討論提案」與「決議」，可見得勞動部倉促為之顯有缺失。爰此，建請勞動部","1.進行「社會影響評估」、「勞動市場影響評估」、「政策可行性評估」報告","2.邀請勞資政學還有移工仲介與移工權益代表，在立院召開公聽會","3.儘速在各縣市政府逐一召開說明會，盤整現有通譯與移工生活、轉業等服務量能","4.最後針對現有失聯外勞暴增現象，提出階段性精進改善計畫與目標","勞動部在未完成上述精進作為與目標前，不得逕自開放印度移工入境。","提案人：涂權吉","連署人：陳菁徽　　蘇清泉","二、","勞動部針對外國人從事家庭幫傭工作之我國雇主資格，依現行法規「外國人從事就業服務法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格及審查標準」第12條規定，僅由家戶成員符合「有3名以上之年齡6歲以下子女。」或「有4名以上之年齡12歲以下子女，且其中2名為年齡6歲以下。」條件之一，且累計點數滿十六點者，始得申請招募或承接外國人。","然現行國內家庭多為小家庭或少子女之狀況，上述規定並不符合現今國情，且目前多為雙薪家庭狀況，需在工作與照養子女上兼顧，增加不少生育家庭壓力。為減緩家庭壓力，爰建議勞動部放寬審查標準，修正相關規定至「家有一名六歲以下輕度或中度罕病兒、累計點數十六點下修及家中有兩名四歲以下幼兒」，是否有當？敬請公決。","提案人：王育敏　　王鴻薇　　邱鎮軍　　廖偉翔","三、","今（113）年2月台印簽訂MOU預計引進印度移工，以補充台灣勞動力缺口。經查勞動部新聞稿與媒體相關報導，台印雙方於去（112）年六月左右即開始洽談。直至本國視訊與印度簽署MOU前一日，勞動部仍表示簽署相關期程與方式仍在研議中，顯然勞動部蓄意隱匿相關資訊，迴避外部監督。","又查自洽談伊始，已八個月有餘，期間內卻未曾有召開政策說明會、公聽會與國人溝通，更未有政策影響評估、社會影響評估、勞動力市場需求與衝擊評估……等報告，已供參考。爰要求勞動部於召開公聽會、三場座談會與政策影響評估報告前，不應逕自試行引進印度移工。","提案人：王育敏　　廖偉翔　　盧縣一","四、","今（113）年2月台印簽訂MOU預計引進印度移工，以補充台灣勞動力缺口。惟台灣外勞失聯後逃逸情形，自110年以來由四萬餘人增加至八萬餘人，人數增加近四萬人，成長比例增加近40%。此情形致使每10名移工即有1.1名為失聯移工，失聯移工情形相當嚴重，並對台灣社會與治安形成潛在問題。","有鑑於移工引進多數透過國內仲介業者，後續管理、移轉雇主等業務亦同。故為維護合法業者與移工權益，有效自源頭降低逃逸外勞數量，爰要求勞動部應針對引進移工失聯率過高之仲介業者，於一定期間內禁止引進移工，並於一個月內研擬預警機制與業者失聯率評估標準。","提案人：王育敏　　廖偉翔　　盧縣一","五、","案由：有鑑於巴氏量表已經超過10年沒有調整，其次很多長輩的失能有時候是跟環境相關，包括獨居失依，沒有主要照顧者等，並非巴氏量表可以反映出來的真實情形，變成許多實際上有需求的人，也會被排除在外。爰要求勞動部檢討「外國人從事就業服務法第46條第1項第8款至第11工作資格及審查標準」放寬被看護者應具條件為：年齡滿八十歲以上無須經醫療機構所作專業評估：七十歲以上經診斷為癌症二期患者或年齡未滿八十歲，經醫療機構以團隊方式所作專業評估，認定有全日照護需要者，並請勞動部於1個月內將檢討結果回復本院社會福利及環境衛生委員會。","說明：官方統計資料預估2025年，台灣老年人口比將達到20.7%；預估2036年進入老年人口比達28%的極高齡（ultra-aged）國家，更是名列全球第三的高齡人口比率成長最快的國家。現今民眾申請外籍看護，除接受指定醫療機構進行巴氏量表專業評估之外，運需要包括符合特定身心障礙重度等級以上項目之一的資格才可申請，這樣耗時、徒增家屬與個案負擔外，也很容易因認定問題讓鑑定人員與民眾發生衝突，造成醫療糾紛。為因應高齡社會到來，有必要簡化民眾申請外籍看護的行政流程。","提案人：邱鎮軍　　王育敏　　盧縣一"],["主席：好，謝謝宣讀。現在我們開始討論，請問第1案行政單位有沒有意見？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告召委和各位委員，關於第1案，我們知道涂委員在關心整個印度相關的評估以及未來整個對外的溝通，目前我們會完成相關的評估，這部分我們可以提供。另外，就是在整個社會的溝通面上，其實我們現在已經有跟相關的專家諮詢，有跨部會以及未來也會跟相關利害關係團體討論，有一個溝通的平臺，至於後續的整個規劃，未來移工引進之後的生活、翻譯或照顧，都會配套來完成。","最後就是失聯移工，這個我們本來就有同步在進行，未來會整個做一個精進，所以建議委員是不是能夠同意，因為MOU現在的進度就是因為雙方已經完成換文，在行政院備查之後可能後續比較重要的是在工作層級會議的討論，剛剛委員關心的這些議題，我們會同步來進行，就是相關的評估報告以及未來對外的溝通跟政策諮詢的程序，這一部分建議在整個程序面上，是不是容許我們就還是照目前MOU的進度？至於這裡面所提到的評估報告、我們對外的一些溝通、專家諮詢、跟利害關係人的討論，這部分我們會再按照委員的指示，我們會來做一個辦理，以上。"],["主席：你要修正什麼樣的文字？這個案子你們的修正文字有跟委員溝通嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：剛剛是有跟涂委員這邊溝通，我們建議的修正文字是這樣子，就是後面的1、2、3、4跟最後一段都建議刪除，第6行改成「爰此，建請勞動部召開跨部會及學者專家諮詢會議，及邀請各利害關係團體參與討論，並提供具體評估報告，送本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會各委員。」以上是建議的修正文字。"],["主席：涂委員可以同意嗎？委員如果要發言可以上台發言。"],["涂委員權吉：謝謝主席。針對他提的「完善評估報告」，有沒有包含比較明確的，像社會影響評估、勞動市場評估跟政策可行性評估？因為用「完善評估」我覺得很模糊啊！"],["蔡署長孟良：這個我們都會納入。"],["涂委員權吉：可以註明嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：好。這三個面向的文字，我們在整個報告裡面都會把它納入。"],["涂委員權吉：就是要明確說到，至少這三個評估報告一定要做。"],["蔡署長孟良：OK，好。"],["涂委員權吉：因為你講「完善」我覺得太模糊了。"],["蔡署長孟良：是不是我們建議把文字修正為「並提供社會影響評估、勞動市場影響評估及政策可行性評估等完善評估報告」？"],["涂委員權吉：說明會的部分呢？"],["蔡署長孟良：說明會是這樣的，因為我們現在已經建立一個平台，有專家、與政策相關的一些代表，這部分我們會來邀請、納入，其實我們在3月1號已經召開第一次會議、已經在進行當中了。"],["涂委員權吉：由你們召集各縣市召開說明會，這會有困難嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：我們是不是建議委員，因為目前各縣市對這個議題可能還並不是很實質的瞭解，所以未來在討論的時候，我們是可以找部分的縣市，比方說移工需求可能比較大的縣市，讓他們有一些代表也來參與我們的討論。"],["涂委員權吉：通譯的部分呢？"],["蔡署長孟良：這個就是未來在配套上，就是工作層級會議的配套，這部分都會同步來進行。"],["涂委員權吉：因為你們一直說會針對英文的部分，是不是你在引進的部分會特別註明針對英文溝通能力的問題？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，跟委員報告，因為這個部分還要透過雙邊的工作會議，還要跟印度方來做一個討論，我們會提出我們的需求。"],["涂委員權吉：提案不能註明要求你們在各縣市召開說明會，以解決各縣市的疑慮嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為目前這只是一個初步的，MOU只是一個合作的框架跟意向，後續一旦整個確定，在工作會議討論的過程當中，假如未來在執行上跟各縣市有關，這個部分後續我們會再來做一個妥善的規劃。"],["涂委員權吉：好，就是針對報告的部分，那幾項一定要特別註明。"],["蔡署長孟良：好。"],["涂委員權吉：你在召開會議的時候，要請各縣市的代表來。"],["蔡署長孟良：我們會邀請部分比較主要的縣市代表來參與。"],["涂委員權吉：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝涂委員。","接下來處理第2案。"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，第2案我們無意見。"],["主席：沒有意見……"],["林委員淑芬：我有意見。"],["主席：好，請林委員。"],["林委員淑芬：署長，你作為一個勞動部的主管機關，你對這個沒有意見讓我們覺得很訝異啊！第一個，我們對於開放外籍家事幫傭到臺灣，本來就有規定，現在是要予以放寬，的確，若你有符合輕度、中度、罕病兒或者是比較需要人家照顧等等這些條件，我們是支持的，但是提案的後面是說家中有兩名4歲以下的幼兒，也要放寬這個門檻。以前我們就談過了，鬆綁外籍幫傭聘僱的門檻，它恐怕會造成替代結果。我們知道外籍幫傭、外籍勞工輸入到臺灣，我們最擔心的有二種，一個是補充或者是替代，但我們大多數的外籍移工都是所謂的補充，就是臺灣人不做了，我們就補充進來，但臺灣人不做所以補充進來其實還產生第二個後果，就是拉低我們的薪資，事實上這已經有了，而我們就要回頭過來討論所謂家庭幫傭這個市場會不會產生這個衝擊、會不會產生替代？我們知道到府保母，他除了協助家事清潔、食物烹飪；鐘點阿姨他們也是來做居家清潔、料理烹飪、雜物收納、折燙衣服等等，這個是家事的部分。","育兒家庭現在大部分的模式是送到外面的托育服務體系，如果你降低了聘僱外籍幫傭的標準，它是不是在鼓勵你回歸到家庭？在這種狀況裡面，它不但衝擊到鐘點清潔阿姨、鐘點保母，還衝擊到現在兒教產業從業人員的工作權，現在有2萬8,000名保母，他有沒有可能會面臨沒有小孩可以帶的問題？兒教產業、托嬰中心、幼兒園，更有幾萬名的從業人員，他們是不是也要失業？我現在從孩子的權利、從育兒的專業來看，我已經講過了，外籍幫傭取代到府服務的保母或是專業的保母，其實是在貶抑育兒的專業，悖離了育兒的照顧，它現在已經走向專業化和證照化了，你不要小看我們的保母喔！也不要小看這一群人！不只是保母，包括家事清潔員，他們都是要受訓，要有學分的要求，甚至政府要鼓勵這些人在培訓以外，還要有認證制度，我們是要走向這樣子的專業，是要來做育兒的，育兒不是只讓他吃得飽、睡覺、照顧生活起居而已，不是！","所以在這種狀況裡面，你說要修正為兩名4歲以下的幼兒，我認為茲事體大！你讓那些鐘點清潔業的人、保母、幼兒園、托嬰中心還有專業化的照顧制度，都要走回頭路，都要面臨沒工作啊！把育兒貶抑了、非專業化了。"],["主席：好，林委員，因為提案的委員他現在不在，所以我們這案就暫緩不處理，好不好？"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["主席：因為有委員有不同意見，我們就暫緩不處理。","處理第3案。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，第3案王委員提醒了MOU推動之後可能的影響跟評估報告，是不是能夠比照剛剛涂委員的方式？因為未來的評估報告我們一定會提供給各位委員，是不是以我們剛剛跟涂委員討論的那個方向，在文字上來做一個調整？"],["主席：我這邊比較著重的是你們要跟社會的溝通，你剛剛講的是專家學者，但是現在其實民間有一些站出來的團體，你們剛剛說用email跟他們溝通，我覺得這個很不足，而且是單向式的，email已讀不回，然後你們就算了，我覺得這件事情真的要成功，是要讓社會徹底理解，就是你們準備了什麼、做了什麼，這樣的社會溝通才算是成功的，所以我建議你們應該要比較具體去承諾你們大概會開什麼樣的會，包括要不要開公聽會或者要不要開座談會；除了專家學者的會議之外，如果要開，大概是幾場，你如果覺得三場很多，那你大概要開幾場？我希望這些東西要比較明確，其實這是在幫你們，因為你社會溝通不做，我覺得反而會阻礙你未來所有工作的進行，好不好？如果你們可以辦，你就承諾你們會召開相關的公聽會或座談會，就是跟社會進行溝通。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，我們現在的諮詢會議其實就有類似這個性質，因為我們參與者就是除了專家之外……"],["主席：有那麼廣泛嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，我們現在打算邀一些利害關係團體，包含現在的一些公民團體，這些我們其實都會邀請，我們未來會把邀請的對象儘量再更……"],["主席：那你們要提供資料，讓本委會知道你們邀請了誰。"],["蔡署長孟良：OK，沒問題。"],["主席：而且要達一定比例。"],["蔡署長孟良：好，OK。"],["主席：民間團體要達……"],["蔡署長孟良：我們會邀請。"],["主席：因為剛才林委員也有問到，你邀一個也是有邀請啊！"],["許部長銘春：我們會來規劃。"],["蔡署長孟良：我們會規劃出來。"],["主席：對啊！要不然你就要有具體規劃然後送委員會，我們會持續監督，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：好，我們依照召委的指示，就是在這個諮詢會議中我們會把相關的參與者……"],["許部長銘春：我們其實讓這些團體進來，大家也會比較清楚，然後也可以對話，包括民間團體在疑慮的是什麼，然後專家學者依他們所瞭解的來告訴他，我覺得這樣反而比較好，不會讓人家認為只有單方的官方說法。"],["主席：下次你們要回覆委員會你們到底會召開幾場這樣的諮詢會議，還有它的頻率、你們多久召開一次等等，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：這個文字我們可以要稍微整理一下。"],["許部長銘春：這個文字我們再整理一下。"],["主席：對，因為待會還有質詢，所以你們修正完之後再給本席看，這個案子待會再回來看。","處理第4案。"],["蔡署長孟良：關於第4案，我們也關心失聯移工，未來在仲介管理這部分，我們會遵照委員的指示來辦理。"],["主席：好，那就通過，謝謝。","處理第5案。"],["蔡署長孟良：第5案，針對高齡現行的看護移工申請，因為巴氏量表對一部分地區可能會造成不便，其實這個部分我們跟衛福部都有在持續檢討，這個案子我們會遵照委員的指示，我們會來做檢討跟評估，這個案子我們無意見。"],["主席：好，第5案也通過。","剛剛第3案的文字修正，你們待會再提供給本席。我們臨時提案還沒有完全處理完畢，就是第3案的文字修正還要再提供給本席。","接下來我們繼續質詢。我們請謝衣鳯委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度\n移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.337843750000001,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.15909375,"end":19.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.449718750000002,"end":27.824093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.195343750000003,"end":37.830968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.67034375,"end":40.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.71659375,"end":41.509718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.509718750000005,"end":41.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.31971875,"end":45.087218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.38721875,"end":50.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.45846875,"end":46.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.42784375,"end":56.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.44409375,"end":82.60034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.83659375,"end":104.53784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.73596875000001,"end":111.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.30471875,"end":144.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.56534375,"end":147.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.49721875,"end":167.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.29159375,"end":178.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.09159375000002,"end":207.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.98971875,"end":212.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.44096875000002,"end":212.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.90909375,"end":213.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.41534375,"end":213.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.30971875,"end":219.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.82784375000003,"end":225.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.39221875,"end":228.70409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.78409375,"end":241.37721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.96784375000001,"end":264.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.08659375,"end":271.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.30909375000005,"end":294.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.26346875,"end":324.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.68471875,"end":333.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.97909375,"end":337.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.56471875,"end":342.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.40346875,"end":346.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.96409375,"end":354.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.55034375,"end":348.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.02284375000005,"end":349.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.97534375000004,"end":356.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.93721875,"end":357.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.03846875000005,"end":357.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.52784375000005,"end":357.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.96659375,"end":358.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.15221875000003,"end":358.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.25346875,"end":361.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.34596875,"end":362.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.40471875000003,"end":372.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.89284375,"end":376.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.17471875,"end":376.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.90034375000005,"end":377.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.47409375,"end":383.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.95409375,"end":384.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.83159375,"end":394.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.06721875000005,"end":389.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.754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各位大家午安 是不是請我們許部長好 請許部長部長好 好久不見了"},{"start":20.809,"end":36.815,"text":"這個是我重新回到衛網委員會第二次諮詢看到你很開心我可以站在這裡我也很開心我要請教你第一件事情請教一下你知道印度的人口大概14億裡面會講英語的大概有幾%嗎?這個"},{"start":40.765,"end":46.592,"text":"你不知道?你都要評估MOU都簽下去了要評估輸入嗎?你不知道?你收到之後還要查詢?"},{"start":52.489,"end":78.166,"text":"我告訴你 人家都告訴你答案了你連看都沒有看過清大印度中心副主任方天賜他說許多人誤以為印度人都會講英語雖然他們官方語言是印度話跟印度語跟英語可是事實上全印度會講英語的人口大概只有10%未來在語言翻譯上將會是一項關鍵的成本那我們就看到部長"},{"start":83.209,"end":84.87,"text":"來源地區將來我們會在這個工作層級會議來做討論"},{"start":111.365,"end":125.054,"text":"那我的意思是說印度是一個非常多元族群的國家我們對政府要開放這個輸入的政策真的要有相當程度的了解在印度使用的語言一萬人以上使用的語言有122種"},{"start":129.557,"end":146.823,"text":"那在這種狀況裡面為什麼講這個呢是因為這個準備的工作很龐雜你們去簽MOU你們去跟印度談然後你們自己國內要準備工作籌備會議工作籌備等等你們必須要討論的是"},{"start":148.564,"end":166.458,"text":"要如何協助雇主乃至於全台灣的社會跟印度移工之間的文化適應還有將可能面對的衝突不要把一個好的外交突破或者是移工政策變成外交危機"},{"start":168.342,"end":187.266,"text":"有沒有可能?當然是有可能的。臺灣僱主根據你們自己叫移工管理及運用調查統計報告你們自己勞動部做的報告裡面,你知道嗎?那個事業單位,你們自己做的有效樣本是8,562份"},{"start":189.987,"end":207.518,"text":"事業單位的僱主4534份家庭僱主4028份你知道事業面僱主在管理和運用移工時曾遭遇到的困擾有44%都遭遇過困擾其中最大的困擾是什麼你知道嗎阿蘇丁你知道嗎保證一塊知道不一樣語言不通幾%你知道嗎事業單位的僱主幾%"},{"start":219.878,"end":221.621,"text":"你不知道?你自己做的報告你自己...你都不知道?現在68.2%啦!"},{"start":229.864,"end":235.208,"text":"家庭僱主方面遇到困擾的35.7%困擾的原因語言不通還是56.1%居高"},{"start":252.282,"end":263.795,"text":"所以我們今天要講說的確語言溝通困難這個事實是存在的而且僱主這幾十年來一致都認為這是最大的障礙之一"},{"start":265.12,"end":293.04,"text":"那我們今天這個臺灣印度研究協會他們在去年你們政策說要開放的時候也有發表聲明他們表示支持循序漸進的開放印度移工希望政府相關單位要成立專家諮詢小組匯集民間的意見進一步的去規劃引進印度移工的配套措施"},{"start":294.381,"end":308.166,"text":"要正確的理解印度社會的特色跟台印關係的重要性但是呢你們也說未來要透過共同審議研議然後循序漸進務實辦理那現在請問一下有沒有具體擬定的工作方向有沒有要聘請專家成立這個專家諮詢小組那籌組的專家諮詢小組有沒有"},{"start":319.289,"end":341.215,"text":"有沒有開過會還是已經成立了沒?有,報告委我們已經成立,然後3月1號也開過會開過會,你們請的專家諮詢小組是真的專家還是你們內部會邀請專家?是外交部給我們的印度專家,外交部有給我們建議的名單所以是你們內部的這個工作層級會議"},{"start":343.639,"end":345.082,"text":"還是你們內部的：林淑芬"},{"start":357.08,"end":383.14,"text":"你們 署長跟委員報告 因為我們現在聆聽專家在你們整體會議就是有相關跟印度方面比較了解的像一些學者那這裡面也有包含就是過去在印度沒有不要 我在問你的比例啦你們行政人員占了9成9然後邀請一個專家也是專家我們其實基本上我們都是邀請專家學者然後還有相關部會代表一起來討論"},{"start":385.826,"end":390.43,"text":"我現在在這裡要跟部長分享因為這是一個新開發的市場老實說我現在不想問你這個問題不用切切私語我要請你專心聽"},{"start":403.079,"end":426.947,"text":"新聞報導你留任的機率很高所以我們未來的勞工政策還仰賴於你但我現在有一個大的數十年來從開放外勞到現在大家都覺得錯誤的引進政策都已經來不及改了你剛才人家質詢問你執聘的時候你也覺得說現在的狀況已經很難走回頭路再改了"},{"start":428.087,"end":443.053,"text":"所以過去錯誤的外勞引進政策比如說國家退位沒有政府純粹引進都靠外勞仲介引進來以後語言不通專業不專業沒有技能的訓練這個問題都丟給僱主"},{"start":445.954,"end":449.935,"text":"所以整體的外勞政策就是由僱主和仲介去承擔國家都只負責收錢而已所以這樣過去錯誤的外勞引進政策這是一個最好的導正的時機"},{"start":463.26,"end":480.648,"text":"因為人家質疑你說你開放這個市場引進這個市場是不是因為有另一批提供這個人力仲介業者龐大的這個利益機會然後你又要如何避免說這個純粹是造福仲介業者而已"},{"start":481.408,"end":489.113,"text":"如果照過去錯誤的引進外勞的這種政策對啊沒錯啊訓練也是仲介啊然後仲介剝削仲介不當的管理然後沒有專業訓練然後丟給雇主承擔啊那今天這一個對印度開放印度勞工的模式啊這是一個好的契機喔從來沒做過我們MOU要簽的時候我們現在國對國要談的時候"},{"start":506.185,"end":512.708,"text":"我們是希望說你們這個移工政策檢討的好契機在這裡國對國的職聘我們弱化私人仲介負起國家責任而國家要做到什麼責任雖然你們有談到說印度要負起這個語言的訓練等等"},{"start":524.674,"end":527.337,"text":"不管印度或台灣我們要負起幾個責任包括生活語言的訓練、專業的培養當然要杜絕移工被剝削只有移工不被嚴重的剝削"},{"start":539.95,"end":556.785,"text":"那這樣子他才能夠安心的、穩定的在台灣就業,也要解決僱主,因為你們前端沒做好,然後要承擔所有完結跟這個移工完結的、語言不通的這種困擾啊。"},{"start":558.246,"end":578.073,"text":"所以國家要承擔起這個責任所以現行我們大家都知道錯誤的引進責任引進政策裡面你說有殖病可是97%都是委託仲介那不要忘了你知道RBA"},{"start":581.314,"end":603.354,"text":"他們對於國際品牌即使做一些集合台灣的供應鏈也接受集合那台灣的哪些廠已經說他們要對這個移工零付費模式他們要付起這個廠那個老闆說我們自己來吸收有哪幾個廠"},{"start":609.383,"end":613.464,"text":"BNA的行為準則為電子業和它的供應鏈制定了規範它當然是拿品牌形象、國際形象、大廠、大牌有能力的先開刀"},{"start":633.769,"end":649.272,"text":"那其實那個目的是要確保員工安全的工作環境有尊嚴而且接受尊重的工作而且要符合環保規範符合商業的誠信道德所以在這種我們的"},{"start":650.433,"end":678.593,"text":"企業當然是大企業也願意實施移工零付費模式了那在這種狀況裡面世界爭相競逐要的這個印度輸出的勞動力勢必也是要比各國勞動的就業環境也是人家也是要比啊那你知道阿比耶這樣子說我要集合你以後台灣的企業就有一些人就說我要實施移工零付費模式人家批評了一句話什麼話你知道嗎"},{"start":680.055,"end":683.038,"text":"這個政府比不上一個國際的NGO啦你有辦法做到零剝削嗎?移工零付費嗎?你有做到對移工的專業訓練、生活語言訓練嗎?都沒有現在一個RBA"},{"start":699.079,"end":714.933,"text":"非官方的機構人家讓我們台灣企業帶頭在做那其實我部長要跟你講這個事不是說你比不上RBA而是說這個未來一定會成為趨勢而且一定會朝向這個方向"},{"start":716.595,"end":744.372,"text":"所以這些企業類似企業的基本責任也要朝這個方向走所以這是一個好的時機好的時機就你印度開放的模式輸入的模式應該要將過去錯誤的引進政策導正做一個好的檢討比照像是以色列的模式由印度政府負責培訓以色列的模式主席我最後講以色列模式雖然我還有其他要講"},{"start":747.186,"end":772.436,"text":"以色列模式是由政府．印度政府負責培訓．而且訓練內容是由台灣．要由這個輸入國來提出．而且我們要針對過去可能被詬病的環節．要去扭轉．比如說韓國將語言基本能力測驗．列為基本選工標準．進階的技能檢定．他沒有強制．但是他有這個．"},{"start":773.496,"end":790.412,"text":"那入境以後要提供基本訓練希望還能夠依職類開設相關的職訓和中文課程我們要﹐其實不是顧到我們而已也要有利於移工來台後職場及生活適應而他適應了對僱主也是好的"},{"start":791.713,"end":813.005,"text":"甚至我們你再積極作為你要講移工你來台以後可能還可以推如果你返回印度我們是不是引介你回到印度的台企裡面去工作優先引用、禁用然後增進兩國的經濟人才的交流然後增進兩國的外交的情誼和合作的關係"},{"start":814.886,"end":842.242,"text":"我想剛剛講這個國對國的引進啊然後負起政府責任啊然後剛剛講政府要扛起更多的這個負責的訓練還有要求不要把不要跟過去一樣都跟你無關你只收那個四千四千多少四千五現在沒有調漲吧兩千啊然後如果你是那個3K5機制在家不是啦你們那個救安基金那一筆繳多少錢"},{"start":843.221,"end":843.501,"text":"國對國執聘可以嗎?"},{"start":865.778,"end":891.435,"text":"這個也是我們未來工作成績會其實這個也是我們一個重點我想現在在場的委員都會支持我們支持印度模式成為未來模式的示範然後導正過去錯誤的政策印度模式就從國對國執聘弱化私人仲介從中巧立名目的這個剝削移工的這個機會然後也證明你不是為了人力仲介業去開發這個市場的可以嗎"},{"start":896.645,"end":898.528,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"149400","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149400","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f94567e71446705d91e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a6a554a5522fe1698e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"11:29:27 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11:41:29","影片長度":"00:12:02","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":722,"end_time":"2024-03-06T11:41:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T11:29:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1028,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時29分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["劉委員建國：部長，楊委員剛剛講的那些事情我覺得他問得不太精確，依主計總處統計，旅宿業是高達5,221人，但業者提供給勞動部的專案職缺人數就只有剩下1,346人，這個落差為什麼會這麼大？是不是勞動部在資格的限定上太過嚴苛？"],["許部長銘春：不嚴苛欸，我們……"],["劉委員建國：不嚴苛，但是你看差了多少。"],["許部長銘春：你看北部的薪資3萬，中南部、東部兩萬八啦。"],["劉委員建國：對啦，你看主計總處統計資料是5,221嘛。"],["許部長銘春：對啊。"],["劉委員建國：對啊。"],["許部長銘春：我的意思是說，你要來用我的那個缺工的協助方案，我們要求業者薪資要達一定的水平才能夠參加我們這個方案，你不能低薪、很低然後又要叫我來幫你找工人，那這……"],["劉委員建國：所以你們有各個面向的審核，之後才去做核定就對了啦？這個缺額是這樣出來的，是不是？"],["許部長銘春：對，部會有……"],["劉委員建國：你這個顯然要跟主計總處溝通嘛，這樣落差，它是以實際上的缺工去把這個數字呈現出來，那你們又用很多的面向去審核，才去做這樣的一個提報，是這樣嘛？核定，是不是這樣？不然這個落差值三千多人，這其一嘛。","其二，你看勞動部在就服機構推介了6,507人的時候，其實專案職缺錄取人數才690人，一成多，所以這邊也要很嚴謹、這邊要更嚴謹，還是這邊……"],["許部長銘春：不是、不是。"],["劉委員建國：不是？"],["許部長銘春：報告，因為我們推介了他不用啦，他挑工啦，他缺工……"],["劉委員建國：你們推薦的他都不用，那你們推薦是有問題。"],["許部長銘春：不是，沒有問題，我們都有找照他開的那個規格條件去幫他找人，可是我們推薦過去他不用，他缺工但是他挑工。"],["劉委員建國：你照他們的規格推薦過去他還不用，他們挑戰你們，業者在缺工情況之下還在挑戰你們？"],["許部長銘春：欸……"],["劉委員建國：沒關係啦，部長，我就把這個數據提供給你做參考，這數據明顯上是有問題的一個現在進行式啦。"],["許部長銘春：數據是……"],["劉委員建國：是不是給我們書面資料，你們到底怎麼做這樣的一個處理方式啦，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["劉委員建國：我覺得還是要討論這個啦，開放印度移工，坦白講我真的會持有不同的意見，因為我看你們的報告，等一下把報告拿過來給我一下，我不曉得為什麼現在要去開放印度移工？最主要的原因是什麼，部長簡單說明一下就好。"],["許部長銘春：委員，長久以來社會各界還有包括大院的朝野委員之前都希望我們能夠去開展、尋找新的來源國，因為到目前為止只有4個來源國，有時候這個依賴風險會很大啦，像……"],["劉委員建國：依賴風險嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["劉委員建國：因為有依賴這樣的風險，所以就必須要分散風險嘛，你的邏輯是這樣嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["劉委員建國：但是目前的移工來源國並沒有缺工啊，目前！"],["許部長銘春：目前的移工來源國並沒有缺工。"],["劉委員建國：對。"],["許部長銘春：目前的來源國當然是可以引進移工啦。"],["劉委員建國：對啦。"],["許部長銘春：但是如果它減少，報告委員，像現在泰國的移工不太進來喔，我們營造業過去都滿倚賴泰國移工，但是真的最近業界跟我們反映不太能夠找得到人。"],["劉委員建國：泰國。"],["許部長銘春：印尼也曾經一度……"],["劉委員建國：印尼，對。"],["許部長銘春：用零負擔的政策也暫停引進，這個都造成……"],["劉委員建國：它是在2020年喊出零付費嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對，所以這個都對我們的雇主造成高風險，所以我們也必須去多增加來源國來讓這個過度依賴風險能夠降低啦。"],["劉委員建國：對，2020那個零付費要輸入的雇主自行負擔所有的規費嘛，勞動部去跟印尼政府做相關溝通之後才取消嘛，所以它時不時到時候又有什麼狀況，你們又要很費心地去處理這樣事情嘛，所以你必須要去做這樣的分散風險，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你看現在這個數據顯然沒有在分散風險，怎麼說？4個國家進來，你看外籍的看護、家庭看護工，我們總total是二十萬出頭嘛，那印尼就占了16萬，對照其他3國的比例已經高達79%，我們沒有在做任何的分散調整，這其一，這個數據當然是現在的數據，這個過程5年，因為時間的關係，不然照理講你的報告裡面應該把這個數據給我們做參考，這是其一。","其二，你看製造業的部分四十七萬多，印尼、馬來西亞、菲律賓、泰國，越南又是最高的，占了46%，家庭看護工印尼是最高79%，然後事業面移工、製造業的越南是二十二萬多，占了46%多，這5年的變化怎麼樣，我想我如果還沒看到資料，我可以推敲就是這樣嘛，所以我們讓一個輸入國的勞工比例一直持續居高不下，我們就會製造更大風險的存在，而不是你現在再去輸入一個新進的一個來源國就可以降低風險，這是我的邏輯跟我的思考，你在這個基準面不去做相關的調整，或許會再遇到像印尼那一個零付費的事情再發生一次。"],["許部長銘春：不過問題是這樣，因為基本上就是他要選擇哪個來源國的移工，這是雇主來決定啦，我們其實會尊重雇主的選擇，像雇主他會喜歡印尼移工，他覺得他可能就是比較乖巧，然後比較……"],["劉委員建國：不是啦，我們引進進來、我們要分散風險，然後部長答復我說，是尊重雇主他要聘哪一個國家的移工，我是尊重雇主，但是你的輸入來源是你啟動、開放之後不去做相關各國輸入的移工比例的調整，那你的分散風險基本上就是沒有做到嘛，我要表達是這樣啦，這其一啦。","那其二，你看今天的報告，不管是勞動部、不管是移民署針對逃跑外勞，去年的1月已經來到8萬出頭，今年的1月已經來到85,947，報告裡面從頭到尾沒有提到這個事情怎麼處理，這其一喔；那其二，印度輸出他國的這些移工在他國的逃逸情況是什麼狀況？報告裡面也完全沒有提出。所以你今天要跟我講說，印度的移工進來之後會不會我們明年可能就會突破逃跑外勞達10萬人的這個大關？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個其實……"],["劉委員建國：部長，你先聽我講，我今天要去贊成你做這個政策之前，我當然要看到你們相關的資料是讓我們可以安心的、讓我們可以對外說清楚的，對不對？我們今天針對逃跑外勞因為過去疫情的關係種種我都很清楚，因為確實臺灣也缺工的非常嚴重，然後在惡性循環情況之下，每年累積了這麼多人，那現在看到印度的移工進來，那印度的移工在他國的情況、逃跑的比例到底是多高，我們都不清楚，那你現在是要引進他們來衝破10萬大關嗎？你這個要讓我們知道啊，然後勞動部難道只是引進人，然後抓人就是移民署，那移民署也沒有在這個報告裡面特別提到這個事情。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個部分我們再來蒐集相關的資訊，因為我們之前所理解的，其實在世界各國的一個使用狀況，包括逃跑等等，並沒有特別嚴重的狀況，但是剛剛委員講的，我們再來蒐集資訊。"],["劉委員建國：並沒有特別的嚴重狀況，那我要求勞動部提供這個資料給我們，對比印度的移工在他國的情況、逃跑的比例怎麼樣給委員會做參考嘛。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["劉委員建國：這基本嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：我們來蒐集。"],["劉委員建國：然後另外一個你們在報告裡面又寫的，我覺得寫這個對部長絕對是不好啦，好像在推銷印度的移工有多好，你們很多問題都沒有去討論到嘛，報告中提到印度憲法已經明文禁止印度教的種姓制度歧視問題，事實是沒有錯啦，但是歧視行為是可以透過憲法跟法律明文就可以禁止嗎？你也知道這是不太可能的事情嘛，但是你為什麼報告寫這樣？我也不曉得。","然後進來的基本上絕對是他們最底層的勞動階級嘛，他們進來我相信他們也會珍惜他們的工作機會，我也相信，但是這又牽涉到人權問題，我們長期被國際關注，甚至於美國國務院在2021年的人權報告報告中也特別提到臺灣移工的權利問題，這2年前的事情而已。","那印度移工要引進到臺灣的相關資源系統備齊了嗎？備齊了嗎？有沒有事先的建置作業？因為文化不同、語言不同，而且又在部長你的任內都還沒有開放新的移工來源國的情況之下，這是你當部長這麼久，第一次要做的事情，這些事情都沒有做好相關的評估，甚至應該要建置的前置作業都沒有做之前，你就要做了嗎？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，報告委員，我們現在MOU的簽署，只是大家有合作意向、是初步的，接下來就是會進入實質的討論，包括相關的配套規劃，這些我們都會處理，因為其實從MOU簽署，然後後面的工作層級會議談完，要整個確定以後我們才會正式公告……"],["劉委員建國：今天召委排這個議程，你就要準備非常清楚。"],["許部長銘春：不是，但我現在就是只有MOU啊！就是合作意向，後面的部分都還沒展開，我都還沒有跟他們談完，只是說有一些條件，我們大概將來會去注意，目前我們也在召集相關的專家學者會議，以瞭解印度移工的引進中，哪些面向我們必須要來配套等等，我們現在都是同步在準備當中。"],["劉委員建國：最後，第一個，我剛才提到分散風險的方法、方式，是不是有一個更精準的處理方向；第二個，種姓文化的不同，然後我們的前置作業，包括預估你們要怎麼做；第三個，就是剛剛我特別提到的，就是他們在他國的情況，包括逃逸的比例是怎麼樣，是不是可以提供給我們做參考？以上。"],["許部長銘春：好。謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的質詢。接下來我們請林淑芬委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度\n移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_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的發電比例可能是6成到7成左右,那但是"},{"start":83.14,"end":104.949,"text":"你就是要把那個火力發電降下來但是沒有辦法因為台灣的特殊環境你沒有辦法那麼多的再生能源那會透過CCUS的方式那我現在想請教就是說我們現在目標到底有沒有改變到2050年的時候我們再生能源的占比要到多少大概60到7060到70但你的這個解決方案你的再生能源包括什麼"},{"start":105.891,"end":130.722,"text":"所以說我現在看到的嘛就是你第9頁裡面有綠電跟再生能源嘛但是你提到的還是離岸風電然後太陽能板提到一些但是其他就沒啦我們現在在講是說過去國家已經投入那麼多的一個資源而且再加上風跟光最主要的大家考慮或是扛慎的最大關鍵是它不是一個穩定的能源來源"},{"start":131.482,"end":134.424,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":158.184,"end":162.407,"text":"不是比較細你剛講2050的時候他要佔6成到7成換言之今天20、50、30有50的藍氣、30的藍莓、20的再生2050廢核家園你已經跳票了嘛"},{"start":176.977,"end":205.657,"text":"現在本席要講的是說我們因為今天是第一次的國發會來經濟委員會報告你照理講2024年的開頭應該是要有對於未來有一個完整化尤其是我們在去年前年也已經訂了2050淨零碳排的目標往前回推現在20幾年20幾年沒有很快沒有很久欸對其實馬上就到了欸對那所以說本席現在想要講的是說這個就是我們現在短視近利的一個狀況"},{"start":207.957,"end":233.965,"text":"你已經講了6層到7層要用再生能源本席也問您就是說你現在能源的部分大家都很擔憂那你現在提出來整篇報告裡面有提到能源的就是在第9月的綠能跟再生能源但是綠能的部分你們只強調說我們現在有做多少的離岸風電有做多少太陽能的部分可是對於其他隻字未提那你到底你要怎麼達成到底有沒有在我們現在的想法裡面"},{"start":234.591,"end":248.042,"text":"有阿有阿,就是我剛才特別提到,因為那個還沒有辦法三旋三轉,所以比較是示範性的,包括地震,還有海岸轉等等。 是,不管是示範性或是規劃或是等等,你是不是應該現在已經著手要去執行動作?"},{"start":248.042,"end":248.662,"text":"有有有,對。 在哪裡?"},{"start":251.553,"end":278.704,"text":"因為今天的報告沒有辦法那麼多啦 因為那個非常非常多 最後我們可以提供 主委本席點出這個點 最主要就是希望說在整個國家的長遠發展 尤其我們現在如果說比較看 有一個進程的目標就有一個目標2050出來 那應該是往前回推 這一些都是我們現在應該關注的 主委另外一個部分本席也看到了"},{"start":280.253,"end":302.947,"text":"你報告後面有講到我們國發會另外一個重要的議題就是國家的檔案管理所以你在最後第33頁用一個標題深化國家檔案開發禁用那整個一整頁的內容全都在講國家檔案那我覺得最重要的本席的選區營口國家檔案管那你的報告勒?"},{"start":306.394,"end":306.995,"text":"2050就要落成"},{"start":322.693,"end":344.91,"text":"2025年2025年就要落成就明年要落成嘛 對不對在報告裡面隻字未提啊是現在沒有把握要開放是不是沒有我們進度還超前進度超前那為什麼整個這本期就好奇了一方面你剛剛講的是說哇那個太遠了地能什麼不夠成熟所以說我報告裡面沒有辦法寫那麼細那我現在有一個29億的投資20"},{"start":347.952,"end":375.457,"text":"19年通過並且2021年招標出去本席那時候還協助來不管是說提高預算等等的結果你在報告裡面國家檔案館2025年要落成開放使用也置之未提那讓本席擔心是不是有可能有跳票不會不會不會跳票進度超前對進度超前這個委員那時候上樑的時候委員有來參加是所以說這就是讓本席好奇的地方是說你今天這個報告"},{"start":377.202,"end":397.244,"text":"有沒有認真仔細的在做不要以為這報告做出來大家沒在看我想我們立法委員的職責就是監督政府做得好你不要期待我們給你掌聲因為這本來就是公僕應該做但是做不好我們一定會提醒那2025年的國家檔案館以及本席再借用30秒本席也希望"},{"start":398.561,"end":425.051,"text":"本來我有一個臨時提案是希望要針對說我們國發會這邊要召集因為馬上就要落成了那地方的民眾也很關心尤其是在地方的社群媒體不管是那個圍牆的鷹架拆除大家就很期待那未來怎麼樣這個國家檔案館跟地方共榮共存並且有更多周邊民眾都可以一起來使用讓地方的人士也覺得是說有一個國家檔案館在我們地區是一個我們地方的光榮"},{"start":425.771,"end":454.968,"text":"我講這觀光感大家要提升還有包括說我們之後地方創生怎麼樣用國家檔案館當成是一個基地跟據點能夠帶動地方的地方創生我想這之後本席也會再提相關的提案決議那也希望在兩個月內可以由國發會這邊來召集我們地方以及新北市政府這邊來做一個開會討論好的可以嗎可以我們一起往這個方向來邁進好不好好謝謝主委"}]}},{"id":"149398","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149398","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f1cedf71ecae5cea13ce99dc43694a3e0f8ba9b0039caa7a618d508fe8f4599eb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:37:42 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這個就是所謂的移動的概念本來是沒放假的移到有放假 有放假的你就要去找有放假的移到只紀念不放假會有這移動的那這個就會在那一個會議裡面大家一起去交換意見因為一定是要去試算哪一種假放了以後他哪些Stakeholder他的一個衝擊嘛"},{"start":310.589,"end":332.578,"text":"你不要把你內心的OS告訴大家,你應該告訴我們說,什麼樣的情況是最好的?我當然是說遵守法律規定的情況下,那如果只能二者一哪一個是比較好的?"},{"start":334.505,"end":350.384,"text":"我會建議大家共識度最高的就是最好的因為我覺得民主時代不能你認為想怎樣就怎樣我覺得要聽大家大部分的人都有共識朝這個方向一定是風險最低"},{"start":352.131,"end":375.891,"text":"我看到最近大家也在討論檢察官助理的問題其實上會期我也是強力的認為以目前的詐騙案以及相關的案件審理的時候我們應該要增加檢察官助理的員額其實上會期的時候大家有對於檢察官的助理員額法定的"},{"start":379.697,"end":386.948,"text":"施法院的法官助理也會相對的要求,那兩個元額是否會有相關的影響呢?"},{"start":389.112,"end":413.573,"text":"我覺得我們增加檢察官助理的主要目的如果是要去處理詐騙案件我覺得最佳的方式是源頭減量當源頭不減量的時候我們再增加太多的檢察官助理事實上整個地檢他們不管是檢察官也好或者檢察事務官或者這些檢察官助理大家都很忙"},{"start":414.696,"end":431.928,"text":"最佳的方式就是源頭減量源頭減量然後再把一些檢察官目前要做的事情去做一些梳理哪些可以透過跟警察機關合作的還有一些訴訟有些"},{"start":433.564,"end":438.887,"text":"施法院的法官助理跟檢察官助理的緣額會不會有衝突?他兩邊基本上他沒有衝突可是會有一個現象就會援引比照的概念"},{"start":457.09,"end":460.331,"text":"那對於公務人員的總額會不會有影響呢?一定會有影響因為他是在董業務那會互相排擠嗎?"},{"start":485.56,"end":512.245,"text":"因為我跟委員報告一下第3類跟第4類他離上限大概都剩下大概400個人左右那如果檢察官你檢察官助理如果在法制化以後因為他會佔到我的總顏額他剩下的空間就非常不夠假如一下子又舉一個例子假如檢察官助理會增加1000個人那他在第4類的的這個顏額我就破表"},{"start":513.046,"end":513.086,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"149397","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149397","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fda21613db804b2098e47b20f39b04ac8f8ba9b0039caa7a6294d796a60933aae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:36:24 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11:40:31","影片長度":"00:06:53","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":413,"end_time":"2024-03-06T11:40:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T11:33:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":712,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（11時33分）謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王部長國材：萬委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：部長好。我們桃園的鐵路地下化從高架改成地下化到現在多久的時間您知道嗎？"],["王部長國材：應該在鄭市長上任市長的時候做一個改變。"],["萬委員美玲：對，你用任期來算，你比較有概念，所以9年了，9年的時間嘛！這個9年真的等得我們桃園市的所有市民非常地焦慮，非常漫長的9年。但我們今天來討論一下我們桃園鐵路地下化的工程，我們看到土建標有17個標，然後機電標有14個標，部長有沒有掌握現在各個標案發包的情形？"],["王部長國材：我等一下再請局長說明，現在主標的4個標應該這個月都會發包出去，就是主標的部分，就是去年的確是……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，我幫你整理一下，你也不要急啦！到目前為止我們看到土建標有17個標，可是以目前來說是有7個已經決標了，機電標的部分，14個標裡面有5個是已經決標了，所以其實本席很關心的就是我們的中路站，然後還有我們的桃園站，聽說現在也進入到要決標的階段，總算是有一點進度了啦！不過這期間因為我想鐵路是連貫的，我們的鳳鳴站、內壢站以及桃園醫院站，這幾個站到目前為止看起來都還沒有進到發包的部分，所以我想不管土建標、機電標其實都有待進度的加強。另外我想請教你的就是，交通部自己原來的規劃上有說整個桃園、內壢到中壢這一段，你預計在118年4月可以通車，全線119年7月就可以通車了，那我跟部長報告一下，桃園鐵路地下化通車，不論是剛剛說的桃園、內壢跟中壢站，或者是全線，我們已經聽過了N個版本了，常常都是給我們欺騙再欺騙，真的是騙很大啦！"],["王部長國材：不是欺騙。"],["萬委員美玲：從我們看到過去鄭文燦市長，市長的時候的臉書，他自己寫的現在都還在，他也沒把它撤掉，說是114年要通車，一會兒又說115、116，現在來到您這裡118，現在說119，這個數字聽了我們桃園市民都麻痺了啦！所以我認為真的是需要在進度上面再加強一下，部長能不能就現在延宕的原因跟現在各標案進度的狀況簡單地簡述一下？"],["王部長國材：現在有兩個變數，一個就是你講的桃園CJ12標，因為文資的課題，那一天我們剛好在桃園有一個棕線的現場說明……"],["萬委員美玲：核定。"],["王部長國材：我有特別請桃園市政府這邊一定要協助，因為他們在文化局的部分一定要協助，要不然這個可能會拖很長。第二個是平鎮的延伸，因為現在平鎮延伸後來是希望納到這個計畫，那平鎮離這個很遠你知道嗎？它從可行性開始做，我們初估如果這兩個沒有妥善地處理還會再延長，118、119都可能做不到，所以我們現在……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，所以您現在是公開地說118、119又做不到了？"],["王部長國材：如果平鎮不納入這一個的話我們就拼一下，平鎮納進去……"],["萬委員美玲：沒有，我覺得我們分段來看嘛！平鎮這個變數我們先暫時放在旁邊，前面這一段你可以如期118年通車嗎？"],["王部長國材：我們現在就是前面還是118，但是鐵路不會這樣，就是你做……"],["萬委員美玲：當然我理解，但是你進度工程要趕上嘛！"],["王部長國材：是。"],["萬委員美玲：對不對？不能每一段、每一段一直延宕，你每一段一直延宕，你最後的總工程期就會像過去這9年來，桃園市民被騙很大，你知道那個期待非常地高，每一次、每一次落空，說真的本席今天在這裡垂詢你118跟119，我覺得桃園市民即便聽到也會覺得說又喊了一個數字出來，但我覺得我們不能這樣，我們要對我們所說的承諾，要把這個責任負起來嘛！所以部長我想請教一下，現在我們桃園站跟中路站的進度情況是怎麼樣？"],["王部長國材：我請局長幫你說明。"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，桃園站是我們 CJ12標，我們最近就可以完成決標。"],["萬委員美玲：很好。"],["楊局長正君：CJ13是中路站的部分，已經完成決標，所以這一部分……"],["萬委員美玲：所以這兩個已經完成了嘛？"],["楊局長正君：對，都會儘速來辦理開工。"],["萬委員美玲：好，那接下來就另外一個問題，部長，我想在總質詢的時候我也跟您就教過，也就是說我們不管看到臨時軌的工程或者是我們主體工程的發包，很多都是第一次在招標的預算到決標的預算上面，相差的金額真的非常地大，現在有很多一直在流標當中，相差的金額就到了1億、3億這麼大的金額，那總體在臨時軌的這個部分，我們看到額度高達9億的差別，這還不算多，我們看到主體工程竟然高達131億的工程決標數額的差額，當初我們有說這整個工程中央付75%，我們地方付25%，可是現在本席竟然聽到交通部自己給我們的回答，鐵道局說我們1,048億鐵路地下化總預算現在已經完全用完了，甚至於已經超支了，是這樣嗎？"],["王部長國材：對，它預算不夠，的確過去的這些工程發包不出去或是整個，這裡大概兩成到三成左右，我們現在在修正計畫。"],["萬委員美玲：所以1,048億已經花完了，而且還超支了是嗎？"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，目前是還沒有超支，因為超支在我們預算程序上……"],["萬委員美玲：但是花完了對嗎？"],["王部長國材：不夠了。"],["楊局長正君：對，就是金額不夠。因為過去3年的整個營建物價指數上漲。"],["萬委員美玲：我理解，不過我想部長，我的天啊！我們還有這麼多的工程還沒有發包出去，但預算現在已經花完了，我覺得在這裡有一個非常鄭重地要跟部長提，第一個，這個預算要趕快補出來；第二個，當初說75%中央撥、25%地方付，但現在尤其工程一直延宕，總預算增加了，我們那個25%的部分，交通部是不是要幫桃園市政府解套，不能把這樣的成本加諸桃園市政府身上？所以找一個時間我們來跟部長討論這個75%和25%，還有追加工程的部分我們希望中央能夠全部買單，這樣可以做得到嗎？"],["王部長國材：我們討論一下。"],["萬委員美玲：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：好，萬委員發言完畢。接下來在邱委員還沒有發言之前，我們先再做個說明：等一下在徐富癸委員發言完畢之後處理臨時提案，今天早上開會到許智傑委員發言完畢之後。雖然中午原則上不休息，但還是要給大家吃飯的基本時間，所以許智傑委員發言完畢之後，我們會給大家吃飯的時間到1點半。","好，現在請邱若華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","廖先翔","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","游顥","萬美玲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","高金素梅","王鴻薇","李柏毅","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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我們有請部長請部長部長好 我們桃園的鐵路地下化從高架改成地下化到現在多久的時間 您知道嗎"},{"start":20.143,"end":48.865,"text":"應該在鄭市長上任市長的時候作業改變對你用這個任期來算你比較有概念所以9年了9年的時間嘛那這個9年啊真的等了我們桃園市的這個所有市民啊非常的焦慮啊非常漫長的一個9年喔但我們今天來討論一下我們桃園鐵路地下化的工程喔我們看到這個土建標有17個標然後呢積電標有14個標喔那部長有沒有掌握現在這個各個標案發報的情形嗎"},{"start":50.207,"end":62.986,"text":"現在主標的4個標應該這個月都會發表出去就是這個主標的部分然後全部也就是去年的確是發表了"},{"start":65.209,"end":80.59,"text":"目前為止我們看到土建標有17個標可是以目前來說是有7個已經絕標了那基建標的部分14個標裡面有5個是已經絕標了那所以其實本市很關心的就是我們的中路站然後還有我們的這個桃園站"},{"start":82.112,"end":98.674,"text":"聽說現在也進入到要這個絕標的一個階段了算是總算有一點進度了不過這期間因為我想鐵路是連貫的我們的鳳鳴站、內力站以及桃園醫院站這幾個站到目前為止看起來都還沒有進到發包的這個部分來"},{"start":99.355,"end":115.884,"text":"所以我想不管土建標、基建標其實都有待進度的加強另外我想請教你的就是交通部自己原來的規劃上有說我們整個桃園內壢到中壢這一段你預計在118年4月可以通車全線119年7月就可以通車了那我跟部長來報告一下"},{"start":120.906,"end":141.798,"text":"這個桃園鐵路地下化通車不論是剛剛說的桃園內立跟中立站或者是全線我們已經聽過了N個版本了那常常都是給我們欺騙再欺騙真的是騙很大從我們看到過去鄭文燦市長的時候的臉書他自己寫的現在都還在他也沒把它撤掉說是114年要通車一回又說115、116現在來到您這裡118現在說119這個數字聽了我們桃園市民都麻痹了"},{"start":150.103,"end":160.507,"text":"所以我認為真的是需要在這個進度上面再加強一下那部長能不能就現在我們延宕的原因跟我們現在各標案這個進度的狀況簡單的簡述一下現在有兩個變數一個就是你講的桃園CGS12標因為文資的課題"},{"start":170.47,"end":186.651,"text":"那一天我們剛好在台灣有一個這個中線的這個現場的說明我有特別請那個台灣市政府這邊一定要協助因為他們在文化局部一定要協助要不然這個可能會拖很長第二個是憑證的延伸"},{"start":187.532,"end":188.212,"text":"您現在是公開的說1819又做不到了?"},{"start":208.86,"end":222.492,"text":"因為這兩個是這個加入如果憑證不納到這一個的話我們就拼一下憑證納進去我覺得我們分段來看嘛那憑證這個這個變數啊我們先暫時放在旁邊前面這一段你可以如期118年通車嗎"},{"start":225.715,"end":248.17,"text":"我們現在就是還是前面還是11812但是喔鐵路不會這樣啊就是你做當然我理解但是你進度工程要趕上嘛對不對不能每一段每一段一直延宕你每一段一直延宕你最後總工程期就會像過去這9年來桃園市民被騙很大那你知道那個期待非常的高每一次每一次落空說真的本席今天在這裡垂尋你118跟119喔"},{"start":250.251,"end":250.491,"text":"我請局長幫您說明"},{"start":268.882,"end":269.322,"text":"接下來就另外一個問題了"},{"start":285.16,"end":303.974,"text":"市長我想在總質詢的時候我也跟您這個就教過那也就是說我們不管看到這個臨時軌的工程或者是我們主體工程的發包很多都是第一次在招票的預算到絕標的預算上面那個相差的金額真的非常的大那現在有很多一直在流標當中那個相差的金額就到1億、3億啦這麼大的一個金額"},{"start":307.096,"end":318.442,"text":"總體在臨時軌的部分我們看到額度高達9億的差別 這還不算多我們看到主體工程竟然高達131億的一個工程的一個決標數的差額當初我們有說這整個工程中央負75% 我們地方負25%可是現在本席竟然聽到交通部自己跟我們的回答說我們本來鐵道局說"},{"start":331.328,"end":338.275,"text":"我們1048億喔,鐵路地下化總預算現在已經完全用完了,甚至於已經超支了,是這樣嗎?所以1048億已經花完了,而且還超支了,是嗎?"},{"start":355.733,"end":378.214,"text":"目前是還沒有超支,因為超支在我們預算程序上在我們目前說不夠了那因為過去3年的整個營建物資我理解喔,不過我想部長我的天啊我們還有這麼多的工資還沒有發包出去但預算現在已經花完了喔那我覺得在這裡有一個非常鄭重的要跟這個部長提喔第一個,那這個預算要趕快來補出來喔"},{"start":379.455,"end":408.22,"text":"第二個呢我們當初所說的75%中央付、25%地方付但現在尤其工程一直延宕那這個總預算增加了那我們的那個25%的部分我想是不是交通部這個部分要能夠幫這個桃園市政府來解套不能夠把這樣的一個成本加注在桃園市政府的這個身上所以呢找一個時間我們跟部長這邊來討論這個75%跟25%然後追加的工程的部分我們希望中央能夠全部買單這樣可以做得到嗎"},{"start":408.72,"end":408.74,"text":"好﹖"}]}},{"id":"149395","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149395","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f933e0ca7805f38d052d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a61053e709b707af575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"11:22:54 - 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正常就是三個月前但是公告的話是幾月幾號公告他們是2月21號公告 他是沒有說一定要三個月但是我們是覺得一定要有一個三個月讓他包括航班的調度等等的那其實本來就應該要在三個月前公告還是比較正確的 是"},{"start":181.809,"end":204.96,"text":"但是2月21日才公告那這樣子短短的兩個禮拜的期間那造成這樣子重大的一個失誤那非安的這種安全的確保啊那這種風險是不可以有任何的一個偏差所以說部長你也覺得這是有可能造成空難的沒有錯這次我們也非常注意這個事了比如說在盤有沒有可能造成空難"},{"start":206.011,"end":225.139,"text":"我們是不會讓他發聲,因為他只要有Made it的話,我們就讓他趕快降落,所以啊不過有就是有沒有任何一點可能性我們不會讓他發聲啦,但是的確有這樣的一個可能性嘛對不對"},{"start":227.639,"end":254.792,"text":"在航管這一塊為什麼要做流量管理主要就是要確保整個載空機的安全流量管理的話是在一個正常的情況之下才會進行這個流量管理那這個是突發的狀況的話流量管理的話大家我相信交通部一定都說沒有問題啦那航管一定都說沒有問題啦但是發生問題的時候通通都是在認為沒有問題的情況之下發生的那我想問一下這一次的這個整個過程中"},{"start":255.552,"end":261.293,"text":"那我想請教部長那一個單位應該去負最大的一個責任誰是最可以獲首"},{"start":262.649,"end":284.386,"text":"我想在整個因為他們現在直接說哪個單位好了我覺得當然是這個桃園機場他們在這一次的稅修包括桃園機場那我直接問部長那因為這個是包含的在後面稅修的處理以及包含在未來相關的一個這種維護上大家要做一個實施警惕實施檢討"},{"start":286.327,"end":302.134,"text":"我想問一下在這一次的經驗上必須要有一個負責的成績或是救責的成績我想請問目前在部長這一個事件上哪一個成績會負到什麼樣的責任不管是行政責任或是政治責任請部長回答"},{"start":303.249,"end":317.177,"text":"我想因為這次他們在第二天就完全掌握了在第二天原來三天的跑道的變成兩天因為這個不是第二天因為這本來就不應該發生的部長你也認為不應該發生嗎?"},{"start":318.337,"end":338.009,"text":"對我覺得那這一次的懲處的成績我相信不管是機場的內部的人員在看交通部在看社會各界也在看想請教部長這一次的預計負責的成績要懲處的成績到哪裡沒有現在就是因為我們的行政司就是會簽上來就是但是他們現在的確內部在討論在這個過程中"},{"start":340.931,"end":362.857,"text":"比如說他們開了這麼多的會議在航空公司不知道到底我們淘機的後續的追蹤比如說這個航班到底有沒有去做一些改變等等的我想等他們檢討出來以後我們再來所以說這次目前沒有有任何人對這次的負責沒有就是他們檢討報告我們行政司會送上來我們再來討論應該"},{"start":369.875,"end":371.896,"text":"所以說現在沒有辦法對社會各界回應"},{"start":394.315,"end":421.145,"text":"沒有那個就是一個月內沒關係一個月內之後我們看後面的結果好不好在今天也不用特別去那因為最主要是需要有這樣子的回應是社會各界的回應因為不僅是航空公司裡面大家也在看社會各界也在看因為宣案是不能夠有任何的失誤那這次來講我相信不可以再犯因為大家時時會盯著此案那同樣的我想要再延續著"},{"start":422.205,"end":451.39,"text":"就是之前跟部長就教的有關於南投縣那這個機場的終結延伸何時何定在這個局限的部分那今天也有提一個臨時的提案那包括南投縣政府在南投縣軌道系統整體路網評估計畫那也有提出那機場公司請回那再來就是在2014年的時候蔡英文總統曾經在南投的"},{"start":452.69,"end":471.438,"text":"這個場合直接公開宣誓要將終結延伸到南投那在賴清德未來要就任的總統也在南投的時候提出了要讓終結延伸到南投那我想請教一下部長終結何時可以延伸到南投你有沒有把握"},{"start":471.898,"end":486.01,"text":"現在跟游委員報告,我們當然是支持就是說台中的軌道延伸不管是南線延伸還是現在的橘線延伸那現在我們也請這個地方政府提出因為現在的決定是這樣"},{"start":487.011,"end":514.034,"text":"他提出可行性報告我們來審查中國規劃通過以後我們就補助我們交通部主要是在這個經費補助的部分那現在就是台中市政府跟南南投縣政府討論一下包括整個路線的這個規劃然後提出報告那相關的這個可行性的這個報告我們可以做一些經費的支持我想要這部分地方提出來我們按照我們行政程序來來審查"},{"start":515.515,"end":538.974,"text":"因為在賴清德來南投的時候他又直接提到了一個吸引、兩大升級、八大計畫那我想請教一下在他所提的這個政見要延伸到南投的部分部長你怎麼解讀以及說他已經公開承諾了賴清德已經公開承諾了而且這個部分從2014年蔡英文其實騙南投的人騙到現在"},{"start":540.075,"end":556.136,"text":"那賴清德他來南投再次承諾我想請教一下部長在你任期內有沒有可能能夠確實來承諾讓這個終結延伸到南投局限的部分這個表示兩位總統的態度很清楚嗎"},{"start":556.676,"end":574.117,"text":"但是問題好 那個游偉你地方不提可行性我沒辦法審你了解嗎 你提出來我跟部長報告其實地方他們是有提規劃的部分其實部內也知道那我想請教一下部長就是這個部分的脈絡其實你是清楚的"},{"start":575.158,"end":590.73,"text":"我想知道剛才我相信林佩翔委員在想有生之年希望能夠看到那我在想說終結到南投有生之年大家也都能夠看到那部長你有沒有辦法承諾在你任期上能夠具體的能夠回復南投還有是不是終結到南投有具體進度"},{"start":591.751,"end":611.352,"text":"我的態度就是兩位總統的態度一樣我們支持就是說軌道不是只有都會區它應該是往外延伸就像這個臺北延伸到這個新北一樣甚至到桃園我們的態度支持那地方提可行性我們來協助"},{"start":613.257,"end":630.353,"text":"那所以說有沒有辦法具體的承諾在你的這個任內的期間能夠加速的配合南投縣政府因為南投縣政府有提其實那時候你們也知道嘛不是那那個提出來然後我們可以做協助越快越好啦好啦盡快因為等一下會提案解決齁好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149394","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149394","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f2ab14842937e56b552d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a6d2a91ba8bd4818235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:10:25 - 11:22:46","影片長度":"00:12:21","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":741,"end_time":"2024-03-06T11:22:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T11:10:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":620,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時10分）謝謝主席，有請王部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["魯委員明哲：請民航局、機場公司。"],["主席：民航局、機場公司。"],["王部長國材：魯委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：好。很多委員在談桃機塞機這個問題，因為南跑道歲修。其實剛剛我聽了包括部長跟我們機場公司的回答，我個人是完全不滿意，而且沒辦法接受，我相信這是大部分關心這個事件國人的一個態度，為什麼呢？我們絕對可以接受你做一個突發的事情，或者第一次、新的一個業務，你手忙腳亂、你不知道、無法預測，我相信人情義理，大家講道理。這樣的一個異常的管理、新的事項，我們手忙腳亂發生事情，人民雖然不滿，但是希望透過學習改進。","可是跑道歲修這件事情是新的業務嗎？是你們routine例行性的工作，而且離譜到……真的，這次搞成國際性的新聞。民國103年2月也是南跑道歲修封閉一整年，到隔年的1月才開放。桃機公司原本應該是身經百戰，1年的期間每一天飛機讓流量怎麼樣去控制，你們一定有很棒的人才，經歷過這麼大的挑戰，結果到現在，現在發生了什麼事？今天到最後我的感覺就是裝很可愛，抱歉、我不會、我不懂，所以再給我一次機會。憑什麼？憑什麼你們對一個例行性……過去桃機公司是一個整體、是一個法人、是一個團隊，你們團隊完成了這多艱難相關的任務，當年怎麼排除，現在都換新人了嗎？所以楊董跟范總，你們哪一個是交通專業的？你們都不是，兩個都是工程專業的。部長，你用這兩位工程專業的到桃機公司，沒有留一個交通專業，甚至是航管系統出來的人，當時的想法是什麼？"],["王部長國材：他們各個組裡面都有相關……副總也都是各方的專業，的確這一次是桃園機場包括三航廈三跑道的建設，還包括機組設施的強韌，所以也找到他們這方面的專長，現階段是以這個為主。"],["魯委員明哲：OK，在這個事件上面，我們已經看到了很多看得見的危機，剛剛很多委員說過了，包括人民的不滿，包括了很多人請了假，根本沒有辦法順利，尤其是轉機客，影響真的非常非常大。我覺得你們如果閉口不去瞭解或去談可能的補償問題，我覺得可能到最後，你們也會驚慌失措。","再來我想問一下董事長，請問一下3月3號你們施工塞機這個情況發生，這個不管是輿論、事實上有這麼嚴重，你事前有沒有預測到？事前有估算到嗎？"],["楊董事長偉甫：事前確實沒有估算到。"],["魯委員明哲：范總，你事前有預算到、估算到嗎？"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，我想我們在過去的經驗，如果是跑道維修可能會產生延誤的這個情形，但是這一次延誤的狀況的確是超過我們的預期。"],["魯委員明哲：剛剛部長其實也提到，你們有很多專業人才，我也認為你們經歷過這麼多次機場的歲修，在歲修的時候該做什麼樣的航管控制、該跟國內的航空公司，甚至國外的機場做什麼樣的聯絡，我怎麼發覺現在有點快要歸零了，你知道嗎？我覺得這個東西是讓我覺得看不見的一個最大的危機，你們董事長、總經理、重要的部門一直在換，我姑且不管你有沒有適才適所，你到了這個位置，你就要把這個事情做好。這事你們編了這麼多的預算，把這個事情弄成這樣，然後居然是事前無法預估的，人民聽到、我聽到，好害怕你知道嗎？","我們認為一群超專業的人在第一線幫我們守住了、顧住了，他們都預算到了，結果現在董事長、總經理說，其實歹勢，沒有算到，當天你感覺跟人民一樣嚇了一跳，你感覺跟坐在機上苦等兩個小時的旅客一樣嚇了一跳，你感覺就好像跟在航空公司盤旋的那些人一樣，怎麼有這麼樣的一個意外呢？所以我覺得這非常非常地不應該。","我真的建議，你剛剛講的應變小組、專案小組，這個事情真的就是要專案小組，現在擺明誰來籌組這個專案小組，你要追蹤進度，你不能用開會，開完會大家解散、航空公司解散，要做不做、進度做到哪裡不知道，航管的回應到底如何，沒有一個長期性的連結。你這個問題，我跟你講，你們裡面的人有說，說真的，這麼多的數據，那一天我試過會有多少航班要下來我們桃機，只有北跑道可以用，這明明是數學就可以算出來的一些問題，居然我們就眼睜睜看著大船往冰山上面撞。","所以我覺得這很不應該啦！未來除了專案小組之外，你們這個還有什麼具體的作為要去做？說一下。"],["楊董事長偉甫：當然，專案小組就是要管控整個從歲修計畫開始一直到歲修計畫結束，流程當中的每一個環節。這個環節在過去的經驗，我們會重新檢視所訂的這些SOP，會把缺少的部分補上來。","第二點，最重要的是對旅客跟航空公司的部分，這一塊在過去的做法，我們發布了飛航通告，對象基本上是專業的對象。對於民眾的這一塊，或者是對於航管預測的這一塊，我們現在缺少這一塊的完整度。這個部分，我們也在繼續檢討當中。"],["魯委員明哲：董事長，事實上，將近10年前南跑道封閉1年，因為當時的溝通，包括飛航的公告、協調花了滿久的時間才能夠慢慢舒緩。你現在去怪航空公司、怪旅客都沒有道理嘛！因為你們大概前十幾天才公告，他們半年前就預備，3個月大概很多票就訂滿了。所以我覺得這個東西，至少三、四個月以前你們就要去發布，要有這樣的一個能力，要這樣去做。","接下來，這個應該是公路總局，我想你們最近開了協調會，同樣找了針對我們道交條例相關罰則、記點，甚至檢舉的一個方式，有做了一些討論。但我們看到後面的一個報導，我發覺好像是在平行線上面討論。那天是司長主持的，也沒有聚焦，你們現在這個微調的案子行政院已經過了嗎？要送來立法院了嗎？"],["王部長國材：禮拜四院會會……"],["魯委員明哲：就明天院會？"],["王部長國材：對，就處罰條例的部分。"],["魯委員明哲：院會如果過了就會來立法院審議，是不是？"],["王部長國材：對，我想到立法院還是可以討論。目前我們是用微罪不記點的這個方向來處理，我想這部分到立法院可以討論。的確在這個過程要找到一個平衡點不容易啦！我們就是從這段時間的民怨，以及我們確保交通安全這兩個事來找到一個平衡點。"],["魯委員明哲：是，我現在看到事實上很多的衝突點，的確啦，我們在道交條例去年6月上路之後，後面發覺可能很多工程面的問題，因為很多的工程面是地方政府大家能不能配合的。很多包括我們取締，它的標準剛開始一不一致等等，包括宣導時間夠不夠。但是現在法令上路了嘛！到現在這個反應，怎麼樣去抓到一個平衡點？","我現在這一張PowerPoint，最主要國外現在很多都在講完整街道的理念，就是這一條道路它應該思考到所有的要使用者，我覺得這是一個非常好而且非常理想的境界。當然目前在臺灣已經落實在很多新的區段徵收區塊，確實這樣去做，我們在這樣的一個完美理念下，現在遇到最大的衝突就是很多的馬路根本連人行道都沒有了，包括省道也一樣，連人行道都沒有，但省道本來是作為全省的通車之用，可是經過了很多的城鎮，它有商業的空間，你也遇到很多的問題，所以這中間怎麼樣去抓一個平衡點。我接到了很多的陳情，很多連人行道都沒有，很多的騎樓也被擋住，包括我們如果沒有開車，都變成行人了，但是我也發覺我們沒有開車有可能也去上班，我們沒有開車有可能是回家過生活，家裡的成員有人要去買菜、有人要去7-11，其實我們每一個人都可能在完整街道上扮演不同的角色。我是覺得現在要調整的方向，現在溝通已經結束了嗎？"],["王部長國材：應該是說明天要送行政院之前的溝通大概是這樣，當然送到立法院後，立法院還可以繼續溝通。"],["魯委員明哲：好。最後我想問一下，去年11月你有特別要求希望地方政府優先盤點、三個月盤點，最好是每100到150公尺有10%的黃線或者停車格，確實人家要下貨或是計程車停靠，總是要讓人家活下去，至少要合理、講理，這部分各個縣市回報的情況、比例如何，能不能說明一下？"],["林司長福山：這個部分我跟委員報告一下，目前各縣市地方政府、尤其六都都在辦理，各縣市辦理的進度不一，我在2月份也有開過一次會議，掌握了進度。剛剛委員所提到的，在禮拜一跟路權團體討論的時候，這個部分大家有共識，交通部會每兩個月邀請兩個縣市，以六都為優先，邀請他們細部盤點每個地方政府辦理的進度。原則上我們是期待各地方政府上半年可以完成，其實分兩個部分，公共會建議的及地方政府自己去盤點的部分，我在2月份開會的時候，基本上大概都有一定的進度在進行處理。"],["魯委員明哲：好，我想細節部分等你們法案送過來的時候，我們再做細部的討論，謝謝。"],["王部長國材：好，謝謝。"],["主席：魯委員發言完畢。現在請游顥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","廖先翔","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","游顥","萬美玲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","高金素梅","王鴻薇","李柏毅","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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routine例行性的工作"},{"start":82.165,"end":99.887,"text":"而且離譜到真的是搞到國際性的新聞啊民國103年2月份也是難跑到稅休封閉一整年一年到隔年的大概1月才開放"},{"start":101.226,"end":101.746,"text":"拜託給我一次機會"},{"start":123.63,"end":139.775,"text":"為什麼你們對一個類型性過去逃避公司是一個整體是一個法人是一個團隊你們團隊完成了這麼多艱難相關的任務如何當年怎麼排除現在都換新人了嗎所以楊董跟范董你們哪一個是交通專業的你們都不是兩個都是工程專業的"},{"start":144.861,"end":155.233,"text":"那部長你用這兩位工程專業的到淘氣公司沒有留一個交通專業甚至航管這個系統出來的人是當時的想法是什麼"},{"start":156.209,"end":181.023,"text":"沒有,他們的各個組裡面都有這個相關,副總也都是各方的專業那的確這一次是在於這個等於台灣機場包括三航廈三寶道的建設還包括機組設施的強韌所以也找到他們這方面的專長來,現階段是以這個為主OK,在這個事件上面我們已經看到了"},{"start":182.923,"end":210.017,"text":"有很多看得見的危機剛剛很多委員說過了包括人民的一個不滿包括很多人請了假根本沒有辦法順利的尤其轉機客影響真的非常非常大我覺得你們如果說閉口不去了解或去談可能的補償這個問題我覺得可能到最後你們也會驚慌失措再來我想問一下董事長"},{"start":211.828,"end":234.744,"text":"請問一下我們3月3日你們施工塞機這個一個情況發生到這個不管是輿論事實上有這麼嚴重你事前有沒有預測到是事前有估算到嗎事前確實沒有估算到那總經理范總你事前有預算到估算到嗎報告委員我想我們"},{"start":238.57,"end":265.711,"text":"在過去的經驗如果是跑道維修可能會產生有延誤的這個情形但是這一次的延誤的狀況的確是超過我們的預期好剛剛部長其實也提到你們有很多專業人才我也認為說你們經歷過這麼多次的一個機場的一個稅休在稅休的時候該做什麼樣的一個航管控制該跟國內的一個航空公司甚至國外的機場做什麼樣的一個聯絡"},{"start":266.892,"end":288.793,"text":"我怎麼發覺現在有點快要歸零了你知道嗎我覺得這個東西是讓我覺得看不見一個最大的危機你們董事長、總經理重要的部門一直在換我姑且我不管你有沒有事才事所你到這個位置你就要把這個事情把它做好這是你們編這麼多預算"},{"start":290.695,"end":290.715,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":309.068,"end":325.55,"text":"沒有算到當天你感覺跟人民一樣嚇了一跳你感覺跟坐在機上孤登兩個小時的旅客嚇了一跳你感覺就好像在航空公司盤旋那些人怎麼以這樣的一個意外呢所以我覺得這非常非常的不應該"},{"start":327.452,"end":350.904,"text":"我真的介意你剛剛講的應變小組專案小組啊你真的就是這個事情就是要專案小組現在擺明誰來籌組這個專案小組你要追蹤進度你不能用開會開完會大家解散航空公司解散要做不做進度做到哪裡不知道航管他的回應到底如何沒有一個長期性的一個連結你這個問題我跟你講"},{"start":355.103,"end":376.193,"text":"你們裡面的人有說啊說真的這麼多的數據那一天我施工會有多少航班要下來我們淘機只有北跑道可以用這是明明數學就可以算出來的一些問題居然我們就眼睜睜看了大船往冰山上面撞所以我覺得這很不應該了齁"},{"start":377.93,"end":400.965,"text":"那未來除了專案小組之外你們這個還有什麼具體的一個作為要去做說一下當然專案小組就是要管控整個從稅修計畫開始一直到稅修計畫結束流程當中的每一個環節那這個環節在過去的經驗我們所定的這些SOP我們重新檢視會把缺的部分缺少的部分補上來"},{"start":401.605,"end":425.128,"text":"第2點最重要的是對旅客跟航空公司的部分這一塊在過去的做法我們發布了飛航通告對象基本上是專業的這個對象那對民眾的這一塊或者是對於航管的預測的這一塊我們現在缺少這一塊的完整度那這個部分我們也在繼續宣導當中好董事長這個事實上將近10年前南跑道封閉一年"},{"start":426.169,"end":453.895,"text":"因為當時的溝通包括飛航的公告協調花了蠻久的時間才能夠慢慢舒緩你現在去怪航空公司怪列克都沒有道理嘛因為你們前大概十幾天才公告他們半年前就預備三個月大概票很多就訂滿了所以我覺得這個東西至少3、4個月以前你們就要去發布要有這樣的一個能力要這樣去做"},{"start":455.397,"end":455.678,"text":"接下來應該是公務總局吧"},{"start":461.926,"end":490.233,"text":"我想你們最近開了協調會同樣找了針對我們道交條例相關罰則、祭典甚至檢舉的一個方式有做一些討論但我們看到後面的一個報導我們發覺好像是在平行線上面討論那邊是司長主持也沒有聚焦那你們現在這個案子是微調的案子是不是已經送到"},{"start":491.724,"end":510.889,"text":"行政院過了嗎?要送來立法院了嗎?禮拜四院會就明天?明天院會那院會如果過了就來立法院審議嘛是不是?我想到立法院還是可以討論目前我們是用這個違罪這個不祭典的方式來"},{"start":512.97,"end":513.49,"text":"市長有很多的衝突點的確啦"},{"start":532.625,"end":557.628,"text":"我們在這個道交條例去年6月份上路之後後面發覺很多的可能工程面因為很多工程面是地方政府大家能不能配合的很多的包括我們取締它的標準剛開始一不一致這等等的包括宣導的時間夠不夠但是現在法令上路了嘛到現在這個反應怎麼樣去抓到一個平衡點"},{"start":558.689,"end":559.249,"text":"王國材列席報告"},{"start":589.81,"end":590.43,"text":"李卓人"},{"start":607.406,"end":622.137,"text":"你接到很多一個陳情啦當然行人很多連行人道都沒有走很多的騎樓也被擋住他們我們包括我們我們如果沒有開車都變行人啦但是我也發覺我們沒有開車有可能也去上班"},{"start":623.226,"end":637.739,"text":"我們沒有開車有可能是回家過生活回家過生活要家裡成員有人要去買菜有人要去7-11其實我們每一個人都可能在這個完整街道上扮演不同的角色"},{"start":639.468,"end":654.056,"text":"但是我是覺得你現在要調整的方向現在溝通已經結束了嗎溝通結束沒有應該是說明天要送行政院之前的溝通大概這樣那當然送到立法院還可以繼續溝通好"},{"start":656.497,"end":682.871,"text":"所以我想問一下你去年11月有特別要求希望地方政府優先盤點三個月盤點最好是每100到150公尺有10%的黃線或者停車格確實人家要下貨或者說計程車你總是要讓人家活下去至少要有一個合理要講理那這個部分各個縣市回報的情況比例如何能不能說明一下"},{"start":684.665,"end":712.967,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下目前各縣市地方政府尤其六都都在這個辦理那這個各縣市辦理的這個進度不一那我在這個2月份也有開過一次會議掌握進度那後面的話剛剛這個委員所提到在禮拜一跟陸選團體討論的時候這個部分大家有共識交通部會每兩個月然後邀請兩個縣市以六都為優先來邀請他們西部盤點這個每個地方政府辦理的一個這個進度"},{"start":713.968,"end":713.988,"text":"魯委員"}]}},{"id":"149393","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149393","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f8c98dcebfe6c8d6352d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a611aaf748057b52845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:58:08 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check，就是公會這邊確認。第二個就是現在靠行的車主跟這一個公司簽訂私契約的時候，我們這邊做個註記。"],["林委員俊憲：我跟你說，你這個不改，會再發生。"],["陳局長文瑞：是，是，是。"],["林委員俊憲：因為動產擔保設定到監理站辦完，監理站的責任多輕鬆啊！轉知公會就沒事情了，照理說我們應該要跟車主說嘛，對不對？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，對，對，跟委員報告……"],["林委員俊憲：那以後可不可以改為直接聯繫車主？你要讓車主知道嘛！"],["陳局長文瑞：要，所以就是……"],["林委員俊憲：那你現在要不要改？"],["陳局長文瑞：要，就是整個註記的部分，也就是靠行的資料我們自己也要掌握，不要說完全就是跟……"],["林委員俊憲：本席今天有臨時提案，我就是要求你要改這個，你要讓車主知道啦！要不然這樣的慘劇一定會再發生。你知道設立一家貨運公司的門檻有多高嗎？他必須要有2,500萬的資本額，要有20輛以上的全新貨車，所以幾乎一般車主都要靠行，政府的規定等於逼迫車主非靠行不可，那麼你就有責任去保護這些車主，而且動產擔保設定為什麼到監理站辦理？就是政府要有一個一定的監理機制嘛！不然何必要跟政府說？直接找銀行就好啦！就是擔心會發生這樣的弊案，2018年一次，現在又發生了，你現在給我查，2018年到現在這5年來一共發生多少次冒貸事件？"],["陳局長文瑞：我再查相關的資料。"],["林委員俊憲：不會中間隔5年，這中間不知道發生多少件，我跟你們要資料，你拿不出來，不敢給我嗎？趕快去把這個程序改掉。"],["陳局長文瑞：好。"],["林委員俊憲：不然以後不知道還有多少車子會受害！"],["陳局長文瑞：是，好。"],["林委員俊憲：請桃機公司。"],["主席：桃機公司。"],["林委員俊憲：桃機公司這次跑道工程造成班機延誤的事件也是一樣，2015年也發生過，2015年也是因為修跑道造成了空中大塞車，董事長知不知道這個事情？"],["楊董事長偉甫：2015年的事情我不太曉得，不過這一次的過程當中，流量管制確實是在我們這個團隊……"],["林委員俊憲：你們單位知道嘛！你要修跑道第一個一定要考量到班機起降會不會延誤，這是必要的考量，而且你還去考察。去年11月桃機公司還特地跑到日本大阪關西國際機場，去考察日本機場在跑道整建的時候如何不影響起降，把這個影響降到最低，是不是這樣？然後發現日本關西機場的作法非常好，他們是不停航的施工，運用臨時性的跑道邊燈，這是你們寫的，每天封閉跑道稍長的時間進行施工，然後再開放使用，一週不是每天進行，非連續日數進行。你們去日本考察回來還還寫了報告，結果你們考察回來，這次就造成了受影響的旅客不要說怨聲載道啦，其實更令人擔心的是飛航安全，因為我們法令規定飛機的油料要多載2個小時，是不是這樣？就是油料要容許飛航時間再多2小時，但是一般航空公司不會再載更多的航空油料，因為油很重又很貴，所以法令規定多2個小時的油料，飛機的油箱就是多放2小時的油料而已，像這樣在空中下不來，之前聽說還有盤旋4個小時的，以前發生過啦，這次最長的盤旋多久？"],["何局長淑萍：報告委員，應該是沒有到10小時啦，roughly我有問過，一般機長來講，如果盤旋到1小時，有時候他會要求轉降，看機長，還有飛機上都會有航行的油料顯示，就是minimum到目的地的時間，其實機長會……"],["林委員俊憲：最危險的就是這樣的狀況啦，是不是這樣？因為飛機多載的備用油料都不會很多，法令規定只有2個小時，因為航空油料又重又貴。那我請問，你們在施工以前，航空公司應該知道你們要施工，他們的班次也沒有減少，有沒有減少？照理講他要減少，我查了一下，發現航空公司都沒有減少，為什麼？現在機票很好賣，賺錢啦！兩邊都有責任。但是法令授權民航局，你可以要求他強制減班，你知不知道？因為機場在施工，根本沒有辦法容納一個小時60個班次的起降，航空公司沒有一家減班，你會不知道嗎？航空公司為了賺錢，這也不對啦！是不是這樣？現在機票都用搶的，機票那麼好賣，就大家都不減班，硬賣！結果飛機下不來，還好這次沒有發生安全性的問題。重點是你們還出國去考察，為了要施工還特地去國外考察人家跑道施工怎麼做，跑去日本大阪關西機場，回來寫個報告，在做什麼？","董事長，你是一個工程專家。"],["楊董事長偉甫：謝謝委員。"],["林委員俊憲：請你接桃機公司就是看重你在工程方面的專才嘛。"],["楊董事長偉甫：所以經過這次的教訓以後，我們已經開始在做全盤的檢討，未來的操作方式我們會重新更新，把現在所談到的相關問題都納入，包括航管、航空公司，還有對旅客的事先訊息發布，我們都需要重新"],["林委員俊憲：對，你修跑道，你現在都是在你們自己官網公布，都只有內部看得到，旅客看不到，我覺得以後像這種重大施工可能會影響到飛航班次時間的，你應該要放在公開網站，讓一般旅客也知道，你現在公布的網站，我們一般人是看不到的。"],["楊董事長偉甫：這個要特別發布新聞。"],["林委員俊憲：甚至應該要公開發布新聞。"],["楊董事長偉甫：是。"],["林委員俊憲：所以你們好好的檢討，這種事情不要再發生了，好不好？"],["楊董事長偉甫：是。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝部長，謝謝董事長。"],["主席：林俊憲委員發言完畢，有關於林俊憲委員針對大貨車司機權益保障的臨時提案，請交通部相關單位趕快跟林委員進行文字的修正。","接下來我們請魯明哲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","廖先翔","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","游顥","萬美玲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","高金素梅","王鴻薇","李柏毅","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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2018年發生的案子然後我們在交通委員會提案那工種就把它改成了因為車行你要去貸款你必須做動產的擔保設定所以就必須向監理機關來辦理然後呢工種的條件是監理所再把資料轉給當地的工會那工會再聯絡車主聯絡車上所有人"},{"start":231.048,"end":246.249,"text":"這當中只要出了一個環節錯誤就出事了,現在就出事了,對不對?現在台南這個案子出事在什麼地方?應該是就是說工會,因為轉資工會以後,工會...你要推給工會齁?"},{"start":247.591,"end":250.032,"text":"我跟你說你這個不改會再發生是是是"},{"start":275.379,"end":283.277,"text":"因為擔保設定到建立站辦完那建立站的責任多輕鬆啊轉資公會就好了就沒你的事情了"},{"start":284.295,"end":286.016,"text":"今天有臨時提案,我就是要求你要改這個,你要讓車主知道"},{"start":309.306,"end":335.594,"text":"要不然這樣的慘劇一定會再發生你知道設立一家貨運公司的門檻有多高嗎它必須要有2500萬的資本額要有20輛以上的全新貨車所以幾乎一般車主都是要靠航你政府的規定等於逼迫車主非靠航不可那麼其實你就有責任應該去保護這些車主而且當然"},{"start":337.413,"end":364.936,"text":"擔保設定為什麼到監理站來就是你政府要有一個一定的監理機制嘛沒有必要你政府才跟你說要做什麼他就直接找他人就好了就是擔心會有發生這樣的弊啊你照常發生2018年也是現在又發生了你現在給我查2018年到現在這5年來一共發生多少次貿貸事件我再查相關的資料不會中間隔5年中間不知道發生多少件我跟你們要資料也拿不出來不敢給我"},{"start":366.209,"end":390.651,"text":"趕快去把這個程序給改掉不然以後不知道還有多少車子會受害那我們請那個陶菊公司陶菊公司這次跑道工程造成搬機延誤的事件也是一樣因為2015年也發生過"},{"start":392.981,"end":420.362,"text":"二零五年是因為修跑道而結果造成了空中大塞車董事長知不知道這個事情二零五年事情我不太曉得不過這一次的過程當中流量管制確實是在我們做團隊但你們單位知道嘛那你要修跑道第一個一定考量到就是班機起降會不會延誤這是必要一個考量而且你要去辦考察你知道嗎去年喔"},{"start":422.25,"end":448.775,"text":"去年11月吧逃避公司還特地跑到日本大阪關西國際機場去考察日本機場在跑到整建的時候那如何不影響把這個影響降到最低啊是不是這樣然後啊發現日本關西機場的做法非常好"},{"start":450.233,"end":465.022,"text":"他是不停航的施工他運用臨時性的跑道邊燈這你們寫的啦每天封閉跑道燒場的時間進行施工然後再開放使用那一周他不是每天進行非連續日數進行你考察日本回來還寫個報告吧你考察上你考察回來結果這次你看就造成了"},{"start":482.104,"end":500.638,"text":"受影響的旅客不要說怨聲載道其實更擔心的是飛航安全因為我們法定規定飛機的油料要多載兩個小時是不是這樣子就你的油料多容許大概你飛航時間再多兩個小時再多再放更多的航空油料一般航空公司不會"},{"start":509.622,"end":518.229,"text":"因為油很重又很貴,所以法令規定多2個小時的油量,它的油箱它就是稼空2小時而已。你像他這樣在空中下不來啊。之前還有,聽說還有盤旋4個小時的,以前發生過啦,以前發生過。那這次最長的盤旋多久?"},{"start":538.352,"end":566.164,"text":"應該是沒有到10小時一般機長來講大概盤旋我有問過大概如果盤旋到1小時有時候他會要求轉降看機長還有他那個飛機上其實他都會有航行的這個油料顯示就是說他的minima到附地的時間最危險的就是這樣狀況是不是這樣子因為他飛機所多載的備用油料都不會很多法定規定只有兩個小時"},{"start":567.594,"end":580.403,"text":"因為航空優料又重又貴啦那我請問啦那你們在施工以前跟航空公司應該知道你們要施工他半次啊也沒有減少啦有沒有減少照理講他有減少他沒有減少我查一下航空公司沒有減少啦為什麼現在機票很好賣啦探緊啦"},{"start":592.761,"end":604.606,"text":"兩邊都有責任但是法令授予民安局你可以要求他強制減班你知不知道因為我機場我在施工我根本沒有辦法容納一個小時60個班次起降那你航空公司沒有一家減班你會不知道嗎航空公司為了賺錢這個也不對啦是不是這樣現在機票都用搶的機票那麼好賣就"},{"start":621.823,"end":622.203,"text":"總統,你是工程專家"},{"start":651.884,"end":679.313,"text":"請你到街淘氣公司就是因為看中你在工程方面的專才嘛所以這一次我們經過這一次的教訓以後我們開始已經在做全門的檢討那未來的這個操作的方式呢我們會從重新的更新包括把現在所談到的這些相關問題都納進來包括航管包括航空公司還有包括對旅客的事先的讓是訊息發布的部分我們都需要重新對你的修跑道你現在的公佈都是在你們自己官網都內部看得到旅客看不到"},{"start":680.503,"end":680.643,"text":"謝謝部長、謝謝董事長"}]}},{"id":"149392","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149392","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f6c2a189d036f13c152d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a612974bf4722aa1b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"10:45:19 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們給我的資料喔所以他應該早一點通知比如說在去年應該最晚年底以前就要開始把這個會案公告把它傳出來因為來回到商業你們早知道這一天這幾天我剛剛有其他的委員講有698個班次要起降那還有你們自己還有一個預報系統欸"},{"start":530.026,"end":547.619,"text":"那你們本來的雙跑道預計多少?平常是多少?單跑道預計可以多少?這些都是可以預期的因素喔?像這個就是一個最大的問題,就是當天維修又允許690班起降,這個是問題那你們之前的協調會到底在開什麼?有什麼作用?"},{"start":552.503,"end":566.542,"text":"就是我覺得他們這個在整個這個部分比如說理論上不應該當天有698班應該在航空公司都做一些調配的進台夜少而且那提早更早就像部長你講的"},{"start":568.043,"end":591.178,"text":"我們在淘機的航空公司不管國內國外有非常非常多如果說要提早協調的話要告訴航空公司讓他們能夠因應而且他會牽涉到的是航空公司還必須對他們的消費者權益做交代做因應做配套這是連環的一個"},{"start":592.499,"end":612.106,"text":"產生了效應那我們就必須要幫忙想時間點那要提到多少那如果如果我們沒有做到這一件事的時候那就是像部長你講的我們允許了698的班次在那一天起降我們港溫泉我們就要付這個嗎我們什麼配套都沒有做欸我們什麼配套都沒公告欸"},{"start":622.404,"end":649.172,"text":"那影響到旅客的權益怎麼辦部長你們現在除了有檢討我們以後要調整SOP你們兩個問題嘛第一個你們要調整SOP未來的SOP怎麼調整你們檢討出來現在怎麼樣第二個那旅客權益在這一次受到受損那該怎麼辦因為你們下半年度還有北跑道的稅休"},{"start":652.351,"end":668.033,"text":"第一個通告應該是我們現在是要求他3個月前就要通告了然後航空公司開始來調班機比如說有些就不要當天來起降"},{"start":668.914,"end":691.033,"text":"然後第二個有關於李克權先由航空公司因為他們還是這個福海航空公司收集意見以後我請陶基開一個會議看大家的這個影響的一個狀況再來處理所以我想就由他這航空先收集一些這些相關的消費者的聲音以後我們再來看後續怎麼處理"},{"start":692.425,"end":694.087,"text":"下半年的維修我們目前正在做整個系統性的檢討"},{"start":709.727,"end":736.278,"text":"那系統性的檢討改善措施還沒有出來之前我們下半年的維修計畫會等整個檢討完以後新的制度開始執行才來訂我們的這個下半年維修計畫這種事情不要再發生是好不好我們趕快調整趕快因應配套該公布的要趕快提前公布這個不是只有臺灣的這個國際形象這也牽涉到國內外觀光客所有旅客的權益好"},{"start":736.718,"end":736.878,"text":"何委員．"}]}},{"id":"149391","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149391","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f148fdb9dbd3c75468e47b20f39b04ac8f8ba9b0039caa7a6f7e81291b4dfc0de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:29:23 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afford得起，這1,200億裡面撥130億、150億鼓勵生第三胎，第三胎一定要生第一胎、第二胎，才再第三胎，不是直接跳第三胎，這麼好的政策。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：委員這個想法……"],["賴委員士葆：要認真思考。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["賴委員士葆：少子化，要認真思考。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們會提到林政委的少子化對策平台。"],["賴委員士葆：要提喔！好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們會提、我們會提。"],["賴委員士葆：立委在正式場合提的，我講一件事讓你聽，你知道我們民意代表常常跑這些紅白帖，人家結婚的時候，我就鼓勵新人要認真早生貴子、多生貴子，然後plus我就講這個政見，掌聲如雷耶！我就問：「有要生嗎？」他們都舉手，有的六十幾歲也舉手說要生，她說：「不是啦！我叫媳婦生啦、我叫我女兒生啦！」這個政策很受歡迎，你去基層跑看看，生第三胎給100萬，大家眼睛張很大且掌聲如雷，很好的政策，反正是好的政策嘛！我想誰來推動都一樣，沒有政黨意識。","第二個，聽說而且看起來電價是漲定了，陳院長都說他怎麼想得到，神仙也不知道有烏克蘭戰爭，所以電價一定要漲，台電講說漲11%的話，CPI影響0.2%，看起來台電是往這個方向走，經濟部也往這個方向走，主委，你要不要講一下漲電價跟CPI之間有什麼影響？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：詳細的方案我不清楚啦！"],["賴委員士葆：不是你主管的嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，就過去的經驗，提升電價的確會對物價造成影響，這是對的，所以為什麼過去幾年我們對於漲電價的態度會稍微謹慎，因為過去幾年的物價上漲率比較高的，所以……"],["賴委員士葆：不是啦！選舉以前不敢漲，選後偏偏要漲，這個東西我算一個帳，台電今年又虧2,000億，原來資本額3,300億，我們已經給它增加1,500億了，資本額4,800億，又要增加1,000億變成5,800的資本額，可是台電的核四按照相關的規定應該要報廢掉了，因為已經確定不啟核四了，當作破銅爛鐵拿去賣，也不知道賣誰，損失的2,800億現在是放在資產，如果把這資產要拿掉的話，台電是岌岌可危啊！一天到晚就是賠錢。最後一點，那個碳交易，你們也是股東，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["賴委員士葆：現在碳交易，這個很奇怪，國內廠商不能買，缺這個，因為現在國際都要這個東西，缺！我們的碳交易只能買國外的，好像casino一樣，你開個賭場，對實質上產業的減碳都沒有幫助。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，第二階段就會，就是國內碳匯的供給就會出來。"],["賴委員士葆：第二階段什麼時候開始？什麼時候？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為它現在還有四個子法，這四個子法完成以後就會開始。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們是希望儘快啦！"],["賴委員士葆：6月可以嗎？換新政府可以嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為新的子法預告，現在通常預告就要60天了。"],["賴委員士葆：60天，2個月而已啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：60天然後再做一些調整，可能都要到下半年。"],["賴委員士葆：子法需要搞這麼久的時間喔？效率不是普通差。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為它要諮詢，因為它的利害關係人非常多，包括民間廠商還有一般群眾，還有等等一些廠商。"],["賴委員士葆：你現在對全世界講，臺灣很注重淨零排放，所以我們有碳權交易，結果都是假的啊！因為只能對國外的碳權進行買賣，這就是一個casino賭場……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：會有第二階段。"],["賴委員士葆：籌碼就是碳權，這樣而已，這東西很滑稽啊、很滑稽啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們會儘快，第二階段。"],["賴委員士葆：給我時間表，可以嗎？把時間表講出來，我就下去。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：沒有，就是說至少要到下半年，因為按照它的子法預告時間。"],["賴委員士葆：下半年，什麼時候可以？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["賴委員士葆：今年度一定可以吧？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：理論上是可以。"],["賴委員士葆：今年一定要，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["賴委員士葆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員。","接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","林岱樺","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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這個 你看 講一下你本廳有沒有可能 鼓勵生第三胎現金Cash給一百萬 可以嗎 來請回答 可以嗎"},{"start":103.752,"end":109.875,"text":"我覺得任何努力都可以來做思考我告訴你我們現在財運不是問題財運什麼是問題我造算給你13萬出生人口有三胎的我們10%10%所以1.3萬1.3萬、1百萬你跟我說嗎?多少啊?130億啊"},{"start":131.277,"end":144.892,"text":"我們額外的企業我們一千兩百億裡面對不對博一百三十億、一百五十億鼓勵生第三胎第三胎一定要生第一胎、第二胎才在第三胎不是直接跳第三胎這這麼好的政策"},{"start":149.81,"end":150.751,"text":"我們會提到林政委的這個少子化對策平台我們會提"},{"start":165.168,"end":179.45,"text":"你知道民意代表常常跑這些紅白帖啊人家結婚的時候啊一結婚新人我就鼓勵他愛緊緊早生貴子多生貴子然後plus我就講這個證件吼掌聲如雷勒"},{"start":180.455,"end":205.475,"text":"我就問了 啊 我要生嗎 打那麼舉手 有的60幾歲也說要舉 要生 你說不是啊 我叫我媳婦生啦 我叫我女兒生啦 這個政策很受歡迎啦 你去基層跑看看 生第三胎給一百萬 大家吼 就去做大女兒 掌聲如雷啊 很好的政策 這個反正是好的政策嘛 我想水來水到一樣 這沒有正常意思 第二個"},{"start":207.618,"end":215.501,"text":"聽說而且看起來是電價是漲定了這個陳院長都說他怎麼想到神仙女不知道有有烏克蘭戰爭所以電一定要漲那台電講囉說漲11%的話就CPI影響到0.2%看起來台電是往這個方向走經濟部往這個方向走那個主委你要講一下嗎"},{"start":234.728,"end":246.533,"text":"總電價跟CPI之間有什麼影響?講一下給我們聽。詳細的方案我不清楚啦齁,但是就過去的經驗提升電價的確會對物價造成影響,這是對的所以為什麼過去幾年我們對於檔間價態度是會稍微謹慎,因為過去幾年的物價"},{"start":256.815,"end":260.236,"text":"上漲率是比較高的。 是啊。 那今年是降到?"},{"start":260.236,"end":279.999,"text":"三天以前不敢漲,選後就必須要漲,這個東西我算一個帳台電今年又要虧兩千億喔然後原來資本額三千三百億那我們已經給他增加一千五百億了資本額四千八又要增加一千億,五千八的資本額可是台電的核四按照相關的規定他應該要報廢掉了"},{"start":285.083,"end":307.968,"text":"因為已經確定不起核四了嘛。阿你做海膽股先去買,不知道會不會上。所以這2800現在是放在資產。如果把這資產要拿掉的話,他一定是急急可危啊。就一天到晚就是,你瞭解你了。最後一點最後一點,那個碳交易喔。你們也是股東嘛,對不對?你們是股東嘛齁。現在碳交易喔,這個很奇怪勒。"},{"start":312.243,"end":339.523,"text":"國內廠商不能買缺缺這個因為現在國際都要這個東西啊缺然後我們的碳交易只能買國外的好像casino一樣好像你開個賭場阿對實質上的產業減碳都沒有幫助欸第二階段就會就是國內的碳會的供給就會出來第二階段什麼時候開始阿因為他現在還有什麼時候開始什麼時候他還有四個執法這個四個執法完成以後阿就什麼時候問問問"},{"start":341.601,"end":343.743,"text":"什麼時候?6月可以嗎?換新政府可以嗎?還60天兩個月而已啊!欸!這個執法需要搞這麼久的時間喔!這效率很高!"},{"start":363.041,"end":368.386,"text":"因為他的利害關係人非常多,包括民間廠商還有一般群眾現在的,你現在講說,哎呀,對於全世界講臺灣很注重這個進行排放所以我們有探權交易,結果都是假的啊因為只能對國外的探權進行買賣,就一個Casino就是一個賭場,還有賭的籌碼就是探權這東西很滑稽啊,這很滑稽啊"},{"start":390.384,"end":413.78,"text":"謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"149390","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149390","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f38995c67088fcef83ce99dc43694a3e0f8ba9b0039caa7a6cd6849d3fc6a78aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:21:33 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人事長好我想最低工資法去年三讀已經通過了中央主管機關要設最低工資審議會每年第三季召開會議最低工資可以參照消費者物價指數年增率來調整幅度"},{"start":22.83,"end":35.717,"text":"勞工及僱主議定的工資不可以低於最低工資違反者最重可處僱主或事業單位新台幣150萬元所以勞工最低工資審議制度已經正式法制化"},{"start":36.377,"end":63.432,"text":"但是我發現我們的軍公教的調薪的法制化這個倡議多年一直都還是這個樓梯上徘徊那軍公教部門的調薪就變成是好像是政府恩賜恩賞一樣每次調薪都要吵架一次那就分兩派一派就說為什麼憑什麼軍公教要調薪一派就說這政府的德政"},{"start":64.488,"end":87.899,"text":"可是事實上你就以最低工資法的這種那個審議的機制來看你隨著物價的調漲其實軍公教生活當然應該要受到這個所謂的按照經濟環境變化的一個保障啊那為什麼會變成是所謂的那個政府也自己討論非常多年所以在這邊能不能說我們剛有臨時提案可是我也要問一下我們的人事長"},{"start":88.999,"end":101.289,"text":"你會告訴我們到底什麼時候可以法制化那不能說每次都是研議研議報告再報告那請問人事長你覺得什麼時候可以完成法制化今年可以完成嗎還是這個會期就能完成謝謝委員這個意見因為剛才臨時提案也要求我們兩個月要把書面報告提出來那這件事情我們會積極我問你什麼時候可以完成法制化你預估啦"},{"start":116.162,"end":129.11,"text":"這個要看大院審議的進度了你期待什麼時候完成法制化我們如果能夠有合理的法制化內容的話我相信這一屆的立法院一定會全力的來促成"},{"start":129.793,"end":151.246,"text":"因為我也不客氣的講我覺得過去立法院很多事情該推的改革該推的法案該推的一些修法事實上都沒有辦法照進度像這個就已經放了多少年的一個法案所以我希望說今天那個人事長你可以告訴我你覺得你們的期待是多久可以完成法治化"},{"start":152.942,"end":164.929,"text":"我當然可以在年底以前年底以前感謝希望您朝這個目標我們會行行政院送到立法院好那就希望我們的這是我們的那個人事總處能夠確保"},{"start":167.87,"end":168.11,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":189.045,"end":216.096,"text":"管主委他發給簡訊給這個LINE的訊息給高金素美委員上面寫海巡極為辛苦原住民同仁所佔比例在原住民部落區域的單位所佔比例也不低尤其暗巡部隊部分我有特別要求要注意在升遷上的把著你認為管碧雲主委傳這樣的簡訊恰當嗎"},{"start":220.271,"end":244.02,"text":"報告委員因為沒有看到這個詳細的內容就比較我特別要求注意在升遷上的拔著對原住民一個首長傳訊息給立法委員原住民的立委還特別跟你講我會特別注意來去所謂的拔著原住民的升遷"},{"start":245.762,"end":251.424,"text":"你不覺得這句話有問題嗎?他是不是要跟高級數目委員交換什麼的感覺?因為高級數目委員正在要安排專案報告來質詢管碧玲我要問那個人事長他為什麼要特別揭露原住民的身分別來作為深淺拔濁的關注點"},{"start":268.277,"end":280.899,"text":"這是一個正確人事拔卓的一個角度嗎?你做人事長做這麼久,你會今天跟一個人拔卓說,我要決定拔卓你,因為你是男生,因為你是女生,因為你是原住民,我會這樣說嗎?"},{"start":282.95,"end":307.8,"text":"你會不會這樣說報告委員我不會這樣講可是管主委他的講話謝謝你你剛剛就講你不會這樣講因為這就不適合嘛事實上我先講按照人事行政總處的報告113年1月底我們各機關實際禁用原住民人數是707人那海巡是"},{"start":309.065,"end":336.863,"text":"原住民現員771人 佔原額的6.4%然後警察機關佔7.5%國軍大概佔9.17%特種部隊更高 高達60%這是現在我們原住民在各機關的原額可是中華民國憲法第7條規範中華民國人民無分男女 種族 宗教 階級 黨派法律上一律平等"},{"start":338.001,"end":362.841,"text":"管主委的發言你不覺得也違反我們憲法上一律平等的精神嗎你覺得如果說是你講這句話你要不要向全國原住民跟高精素美委員道歉你是高精素美委員是原住民你不覺得這句話有羞辱到原住民跟原住民委員嗎你會不會覺得你被羞辱到我要跟委員報告一下我跟你講高精素美委員就絕對被羞辱到"},{"start":365.014,"end":393.052,"text":"所以人事行政總處當然你管不了管必領可是我覺得在推廣這種所謂無歧視職業不分所謂的階級種族的無歧視的原則這個應該是人事行政總處你們要負責宣導的吧包括性平啊包括各種所謂的我們講人事上的你要排除一些所謂的歧視我希望能夠好好建立這樣一個文官的文化那接下來再請教我們的那個人事長"},{"start":395.063,"end":411.694,"text":"人事行政總處工作上有一個很重要的就是厚實公務人力整體待遇制度提升軍公教員工待遇合理性然後要來增加整體的競爭力那我想請問教師是不是屬於泛公務體系的一份子是不是教師本來就是謝謝那能不能請人事長幫幫老師們"},{"start":424.027,"end":449.052,"text":"108課綱上路初期就有很多教育產業工會也來找過我呼籲要增置高中教師員額以符合108課綱素養教學跟多元選修課程的教學需要因為我們108課綱其實因為要所謂追求多元還有包括素養教學其實賦予老師更多的一些負擔沒錯吧 對不對"},{"start":450.692,"end":451.152,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":480.692,"end":490.705,"text":"可是如果你今天有這個空有這個目標你沒有相應的提升員額讓老師能夠有更大的精力專注在這些事情上那是不是適得其反?是不是適得其反?"},{"start":494.196,"end":513.041,"text":"這一個部門我的了解教育部都有在適當的給予嚴格當然教育部為主可是我希望我們人事行政總處能夠去提點一下提點一下就是說事實上你可以看到就是說我們現在因為這個問題我們現在的做法是全部推給戴克老師"},{"start":514.332,"end":516.112,"text":"合適的所謂支援的時候你反而是降低老師在每一個"},{"start":542.558,"end":557.609,"text":"領域上他的所能夠達到的品質那另外還有就是說我們剛剛都在講所謂物價的部分我們已經決定要調漲這個軍工教就是薪資4%4個百分點可是調薪範圍有沒有南瓜教師終點費教師終點費他是屬於"},{"start":567.632,"end":586.799,"text":"教育部已經也調了示範我直接跟你講我們教室沒有設加班費現行課都輔導跟重修補修是以420元到550元為基準可是事實上這樣的他有做一點調整但是對下限做調整他沒有對上限做調整"},{"start":587.839,"end":600.812,"text":"那也有很多的教學的一個現場的工作人員跟我們反應就是說事實上很多他本來就是定上限啦在知己的所以調整下限不調上限實際的結果跟沒調整一樣沒錯吧"},{"start":602.81,"end":625.665,"text":"因為大家很多都調整上限還有一點就是他們的要求希望就是既然終點有些是加班的終點的話應該按照勞工的加班費的計算基準來去評估甚至也是某種程度法制化按照物價來去調不要又是N幾式的去所謂的專案調整所謂的那個終點費這個也希望我們人事總處這邊能夠想辦法協調教育部一起來推動感謝您"},{"start":633.865,"end":634.05,"text":"謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"149389","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149389","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f97f09e1b99ecc5a690274675d1217385f8ba9b0039caa7a6306605202daef2345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:29:25 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74.32那我也同意這一兩個小時裡面很多委員所提到的執聘中心的檢討那我希望我本席辦公室也會收到你們檢討報告好不好然後接到我們進行今天的主題你部長告訴我一下你知道的印度是什麼樣的一個國家你的理解"},{"start":155.762,"end":182.131,"text":"他是一個文明古國有多元的這些豐富的文化那我的理解是他是全世界人口最多的國家是人口紅利他現在是人口紅利最多的國家包括青年的人口紅利那我們這次要來的是白領還是藍領我們是藍領藍領為主報告委員我們的白領早就有了我們現在台灣的白領有2800多人我知道美國的引進的印度勞工是白領"},{"start":183.604,"end":211.864,"text":"所以我希望你們這邊能夠做一個所謂的限制因為他們的資訊的方面的所謂的也是很超前所以他們在美國錄用的印度移工是超過50%都是來自印度所以一旦我們簽署了MOU以後他們萬一有這方面的需求對我們這方面的要求會影響到我們本國的我們資訊業所以你們這方面要把關好不好"},{"start":213.344,"end":214.245,"text":"你可以預期多少人是來自哪一區是說哪一種語言嗎?"},{"start":231.377,"end":252.867,"text":"目前這個都還要透過工作成績會議來談MOU簽完以後接下來就是重點就是工作成績會議這個就是要來決定哪些行業哪些人數包括語言條件技能條件等等因為我們常常在很多地方會看到越南語、泰語的標示還有或者是馬來西亞那你有"},{"start":253.703,"end":280.126,"text":"未來會要如何標示印度語你知道嗎?我們這個多國語言的移工的服務這個我們都會同步會做印度語沒有國語它的官方語言就是英文所以標示上就會沒有問題就是會以英文為主啦你就像那個印尼也好菲律賓也好他們其實有時候那個各地語言不太一樣我們基本上就是會以方言很多啦但是我們基本上可能會以英文為主下一頁看一下"},{"start":281.192,"end":285.46,"text":"那你知道去年整個印度的傳染病的前7名是哪些疾病嗎?"},{"start":289.246,"end":314.3,"text":"對,就是去年的資料,最新的。那我們扣除第一個跟最後一個,也就是說它是屬於已經退流行的,也就是季節性的話,其實前,你扣掉COVID-19,後來的這個LiveWare或是Type 4或是Type Glossis,其實這些在我們國家是比較少見,而且是第二名這個瘧疾是有死亡風險的,這個部分的把關應該要嚴格把關。"},{"start":315.18,"end":342.931,"text":"報告委員如果有這些都進不來因為他們要來的話第一個他要健檢合格然後進來以後我看到你們的衛福部的報告裡面的那個對針對我們移工的一個健檢的部分其實對你們的標準的作業其實對每個國家的移工的都是一樣的沒有因為針對他這個國家的特殊性做調整我希望能夠提醒說以後這個瘧疾啊或者傷人這些如果萬一跑進來的話你們要怎麼辦是"},{"start":343.956,"end":371.529,"text":"報告委員那個衛福部他未來他那邊要醫院經衛福部認可醫院的健康證明才會進來因為美國的幾乎的幾乎所做的項目都一樣你不會因為針對是泰國是這樣然後印度是這樣我希望你能夠做一個修正是好不好沒問題有請看第1、2、3、4、5第5項是HIV他們的人口數這麼多所以這個部分你的那個routine的檢查裡面沒有這項這個項目"},{"start":373.63,"end":400.025,"text":"我是說你們的那個衛福部所要檢查的項目沒有包括這一項我有看那個第6頁的樣子這個部分委員我們會來注意就是每個國家的傳染病的狀況那你現在你知道現在我們的康復工就是來自越南或者是目前比較多的是印尼他們比較常發生的問題是什麼嗎我所謂的康復"},{"start":402.526,"end":431.261,"text":"那請你委員指教大部分他們都是知識水準沒有那麼高然後其實大部分都在看手機然後一直在跟他母國的家人講話視訊講話其實在真正在照顧我們老人家的那個時間其實沒有那麼多他就按照三餐或者是該換尿布的時候該換藥的時候就做或是其他時間都這樣那我的意思是說當然每一個人每一個人的自由或者是說他的工作的態度不過我要要求是不是看護的那個教育程度要稍微好一點"},{"start":432.418,"end":453.849,"text":"至少在在教他要怎麼換藥或者是要教他怎麼餵食的時候有一個基本的一個他的一個概念不然你完全沒有知識水準的一個看護工來的話你再照顧我們的老人家是你會放心嗎是不是要是不是要做一個適當的調整你知道失戀移工都在哪裡嗎大部分"},{"start":455.562,"end":480.552,"text":"銀藻業、農業我知道的私立移工大部分都在山上在種一些植栽然後那我知道他們的問題當然說他們要申請要變成所謂的合法或什麼那些條件都非常的嚴格所以是不是在找到他們以後能不能是不是在司法性上面能不能一些教育或什麼的"},{"start":481.468,"end":503.807,"text":"其實我都知道他們在哪,我也看過他們在哪裡你去阿里山看一些在採茶的,大部分其實都不是合法的移工啊其實大家都知道他們在哪裡可是你們卻沒有人在處理,可以嗎?大部分都在山區做這種植栽的工作這個我們可以請移民署來處理,因為那個適應移工茶器是移民署的權責好,那再給我兩分鐘的時間,謝謝"},{"start":506.963,"end":519.58,"text":"那針對我們的巴士量表我希望今天能不能有一個比較明確的答案你們有沒有已經在進行規劃還是什麼免巴士量表這個部分"},{"start":520.08,"end":543.832,"text":"報告委員我們現在就是巴士任表以外我們還有多元的認定方式包括你使用長照那個超過6個月還有這些失智的還有一些身心特殊身心障礙的這個我們都有放寬認定再來就是他從早免評從早以後不用再在巴士任表免評這個我們也有放寬這個我們會持續滾動檢討也會跟衛福部這邊一起"},{"start":550.526,"end":574.876,"text":"以他們的專業來處理是不是就一個疾病診斷書就可以來取代?因為巴斯列表實在是太浪費很多的資源尤其是住在偏遠地區的族人他們要包車還要請家人載他們然後有時候剛好看的科別醫師請假或者是說他不願意的話他又要再花一天再過來等於是勞思動眾"},{"start":576.437,"end":591.211,"text":"報告委因為我們基本上看護工能夠聘請看護工他就是私能對我是說私能的認定其實在巴士量表巴士量表他是一個我想是各國所承認的標準只要是在台灣獲得合格醫師的執照他不會亂開"},{"start":595.435,"end":597.136,"text":"盧縣一委員的質詢那等一下林淑芬委員質詢結束後我們處理臨時提案"}]}},{"id":"149386","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149386","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f93414f19f3c56faf90274675d1217385f8ba9b0039caa7a6563cb0ca640d278f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"11:19:38 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11:29:05","影片長度":"00:09:27","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":567,"end_time":"2024-03-06T11:29:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T11:19:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":566,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（11時19分）請馮主委。"],["主席：來，主委請。"],["馮主任委員世寬：林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：主委好，你辛苦了。主委，你已經80歲的高齡，從年輕的時候就開始擔任保家衛國的軍人，一路從基層到擔任參謀總長、國防部長，你的一輩子都是為守護臺灣人民的安全，大家其實都是有目共睹。"],["馮主任委員世寬：謝謝。"],["林委員憶君：主委，聽說你自稱大鵬，希望能跟官兵建立很好的溝通，不要官腔官調的，讓人覺得距離很遠，希望能夠藉此聽到國軍官兵的聲音，是不是？"],["馮主任委員世寬：是。"],["林委員憶君：現在你在擔任退輔會主委這個職位，又必須擔任起照顧這些榮民弟兄，還有退除役官兵的生計和健康照顧，更是不遺餘力、盡心盡力，你對國家的奉獻，本席在此向你致上最深的敬意。"],["馮主任委員世寬：謝謝您。"],["林委員憶君：認真看了今天退輔會送來的業務報告，發現了一些問題想跟主委就教。本席來自花蓮，花蓮有許多軍事要地和眷村，所以對這些用生命在守護我們家園和保護國家人民的國軍弟兄們及退役軍眷的福祉，其實我也是特別的重視，因此本席真的希望退輔會能夠持續的進步，好好的表現。本席想要請教大鵬主委，本席因為長期在花蓮擔任社區藥局藥師的身分，對榮民長輩的健康照顧特別的重視，所以請教主委，是否有統計目前全國有多少榮民弟兄姐妹們在接受退輔會的就養照顧？平均年齡大約幾歲？"],["馮主任委員世寬：好的，我責付承辦的處長來向您報告，因為大院的冷氣讓我有點受涼，喉嚨不方便，他是我一手提拔的、最優秀的處長，希望他能夠給你滿意的答復。"],["林委員憶君：是。"],["周處長興國：委員好，我是就養養護處處長周興國。目前我們就養的榮民大概是二萬七千餘人，老一輩的住在各榮家，大概平均年齡都有84歲，因為我們著重於老一輩對國家是有貢獻的，慢慢新一代榮民也進來了，但是大概多數是年齡比較大的人申請就養。"],["林委員憶君：平均是不是年齡高達94歲？到2022年已經上千人了，都成為百歲人瑞了是嗎？"],["周處長興國：在我們三十幾萬榮民裡面，我們有一千多位是高齡百歲。"],["林委員憶君：請問主委，目前退輔會照顧這些榮民弟兄的醫療人力及支援是否充足呢？"],["馮主任委員世寬：報告委員，我們有金字塔的計畫，所以他們除了在榮家已經有照顧之外，各分院、各榮院都有直接聯繫的系統。"],["林委員憶君：那是否充足呢？"],["馮主任委員世寬：我認為是充足的。"],["林委員憶君：好，如果認為充足的話，請提供本席相關書面資料，因為你們覺得充足。接下來本席在此先恭喜主委，根據2024年全球最佳醫院250強評比中，我們退輔會所屬的臺北榮民總醫院獲選第218名，是全臺唯一入榜的醫院，不只是我們臺灣的光榮，也是在你領導之下和退輔會同仁一起努力的成果。所以本席想請問主委，在臺北市首善之都，你知道臺北榮總目前有多少醫師嗎？"],["馮主任委員世寬：我請陳院長跟您答復比較精確。"],["林委員憶君：好。"],["陳院長威明：報告委員，到3月1日新的報告，我們現在醫師是1,450位。"],["林委員憶君：好，因為我這邊得到的資料是1,156位。那臺北榮總在花東地區是不是有鳳林、玉里和臺東3個分院呢？"],["陳院長威明：是的，它是我們的分院，不過因為少子化的關係，我們在鳳林有一些兒科門診目前有些困境，不過積極在努力，3月中就會補好。"],["林委員憶君：據本席瞭解，目前3家醫院的醫療人力都明顯地非常不足，你知道是什麼原因嗎？目前有許多花東的鄉親，還有花蓮更多的鄉親向本席反映，因為花東醫院的醫生嚴重短缺，大家都希望臺北榮總可以從總院派任醫師下去，不用太久，1到3個月也可以，希望持續有醫師資源，一來可以提升北榮花東3個分院的醫療品質，二來又可讓花東地區的榮民和百姓們都可以免除為了就醫還要坐車的勞頓奔波之苦。那主委認為可行嗎？"],["陳院長威明：報告委員，我可不可以幫主委回答？"],["林委員憶君：可以。"],["陳院長威明：其實我在鳳林待過2年，我下鄉從花蓮回來，有特殊情感。現在花蓮的情況我們非常清楚，那我們現在……"],["林委員憶君：可以解決嗎？可行嗎？"],["陳院長威明：要解決……甚至現在醫院裡面要升主治醫師，優秀的人員，我說你先到花東去服務一、兩年回來，我優先給你拔擢，這樣來鼓勵好人才到花東去。"],["林委員憶君：好。"],["陳院長威明：但是在兒科的部分有一些困難，現在臺大跟榮總住院醫師招收兒科的醫師都收不滿，少子化的關係，所以這些我們是憂心忡忡。"],["林委員憶君：可是那邊都是年紀大的，是不是要派一些內科醫師去呢？"],["陳院長威明：有，這個一定都會。"],["林委員憶君：那是不是比較符合需要，對不對？"],["陳院長威明：我們的骨科……"],["林委員憶君：我們花東的話需要的是一些比較能服務榮民的。"],["陳院長威明：是。"],["林委員憶君：那是不是要內科的醫師比較符合？"],["陳院長威明：是，內科醫師有調派，那骨科、眼科，跟高齡有關係的我們都有調派。"],["林委員憶君：那需要你們快點把這個大概的書面寫出來。"],["陳院長威明：是。"],["林委員憶君：看何時可以執行，讓我們花東的醫療能夠非常符合，服務這些榮民。"],["陳院長威明：是，一定努力。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。本席在此要替我們花東民眾的醫療不足和就醫請命。","接下來要請教主委一個民生議題，不知道主委有沒有注意到台電即將在4月調漲電價的這個新聞？"],["馮主任委員世寬：在新聞上播報有看到。"],["林委員憶君：這次經濟部打算調漲電價，主要是因為進口的天然氣價格太貴了。既然講到天然氣，大家都知道，退輔會所屬的投資有15間天然氣公司，可以算是臺灣非常重要的家用瓦斯供應單位。我想要請問主委，未來這15家天然氣公司會不會在經濟部調漲電價之後，也跟著調漲天然氣的價格？"],["馮主任委員世寬：我們處長才去開過協調會，我請他來報告。"],["林委員憶君：好。"],["楊處長長政：委員好，我是事業管理處的處長楊長政。跟委員報告，天然氣公司的售氣價格是由主管機關經濟部核定，我們不能隨便漲價。那天然氣公司……"],["林委員憶君：如果不能隨便漲價的話，承諾不漲價，那就記好你的承諾。"],["楊處長長政：報告委員，我後面還沒講完。如果中油調漲了天然氣，我們也是按照主管機關的核定來調整。如果哪家天然氣公司違反這個規定，它就要接受50到250萬元罰款。"],["林委員憶君：我再講一下，2分鐘。"],["主席：2分鐘喔！短一點。"],["林委員憶君：好，那我就講下一個。另外請問退輔會，目前所屬的是不是有16家榮民醫院跟16間榮民之家？一般的如果醫療院所的用電量向來不是很低的話，那請問主席，你是否掌握到這次電價，如果一旦……"],["主席：你是要問主席還是主委？"],["林委員憶君：喔！主委。對不起。"],["主席：我不敢回答這一題。"],["林委員憶君：是否會增加榮院和榮家的營運成本？"],["馮主任委員世寬：會的。"],["林委員憶君：會的嘛！老實說，這些公營機構其實要有相應的財務手段，才能應付電價的波動。過去2年民生物價真的飆漲了，生活非常地困難，苦不堪言。我也希望，這些弱勢榮民們的生活其實非常困難，我們花蓮真的有很多弱勢的榮民需要退輔會這邊能夠好好地照顧及好好地關懷，可以嗎？"],["馮主任委員世寬：謝謝委員。"],["林委員憶君：可以嗎？主委，可以嗎？"],["馮主任委員世寬：我們盡全力。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君委員，請回，主委請回。","接下來進行詢答委員是鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","接下來進行詢答的委員是謝衣鳯委員，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-2","speakers":["王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","徐巧芯","洪申翰","陳冠廷","馬文君","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130601_00010"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.36846875,"end":1.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1.9040937500000001,"end":2.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.202843750000001,"end":7.894718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.894718750000001,"end":7.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.91159375,"end":7.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.50221875,"end":10.898468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.82659375,"end":16.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.48409375,"end":28.195343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.58346875,"end":29.207843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.63409375,"end":29.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.207843750000002,"end":29.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.24159375,"end":42.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.45034375,"end":53.03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2018年才由我們國會統籌各部會來制定對策綱領並協調各個部會一起來努力但是就算說你去意識到並展開行動你去看日本2023年的新生兒人數是758,631人他比2022年還是減少了5.1%連續8年日本也創下統計以來最低的一個紀錄"},{"start":119.454,"end":133.759,"text":"韓國呢他過去為了解決少子化的一個問題啊他投入這個資源喔可怕6.6兆的新台幣那就是說280兆的一個韓元到了2023年這個特殊的一個出生率啊這個還是啊跌到0.72同樣"},{"start":136.24,"end":161.687,"text":"連續8年還是創限低日本如此韓國如此那少子化可以說是這已開發國家裡面必然面對的一個難題甚至本席都還認為說你這個你很難去根本去做處理那內政部日前公布了一個國安危機少子化浪潮的一個報告其中有提到了日本總生育率在1980年代是亞洲主要國家裡面的最後一名但是到了2005年開始"},{"start":163.891,"end":179.165,"text":"注意一攀升到首位可見我們的政策目標首先應該是說放緩少子化的一個現象先達到放緩然後再試著去根除少子化的一個現象那這麼多的一個經費的一個挹注可能大家也要去重新去思考這個其實它不是一種攝服"},{"start":187.105,"end":207.484,"text":"建物集開類是一種投資是一種投資未來人口的一個問題這個嚴峻而且涉及的層面非常廣大我也知道說這個不是單一個部會就可以去處理必須要大家共同你像比如說國發會、勞動部、內政部、經濟部、衛福部、高通部、省際財政部相關部會可以著力的一個地方"},{"start":208.425,"end":233.245,"text":"我記得民進黨政府201616年當然開始各部會也提出了非常多的政策跟修法像是放寬、育嬰、留職、停薪等條件0到6歲國家一起養提升公托準公托數量等營造一個友善養兒的一個育兒的一個環境的一個政策相關預算也大幅增加所以我要請教主委就是說現在網路上都在說現在在說的嫂子話就說我們的政府只創一個嫂子話辦公室只這幾年這樣你感到福氣?"},{"start":244.425,"end":263.152,"text":"現在是有一個林鄭委員就是行政院林鄭委員他在有一個對策就是少子化的一個對策跨部位的一個對策一個平台那在討論這樣的事情所以為什麼各部位都有相關的動作為什麼那個預算會從過去的100多億現在已經超過1000億來協助就是生跟養的一個環境"},{"start":269.284,"end":275.549,"text":"那當然是一種投資啦。我要講的就是說,我們2018年你制定對策計畫以後,你現在還沒5年啦。你除了150年計畫調整規劃以外,是不是該有一個總檢討?而且你當年那個對策計畫是107到113年,等於到今年而已,也沒了。那你的下一步呢?"},{"start":292.043,"end":319.971,"text":"現在已經,就是我剛才特別提到的那個林政委那邊已經在處理這件事情,已經提到的這件事情。這個其實喔,這個真的是對未來一個投資啊。本席再舉兩個例子啊。我在內政委員會喔,我也分別針對少子化的問題向原民會跟客戶會來提出詢問。就詢問說,自當年的少子化對策綱領制定以後,兩個跟族群相關的部會是不是有配合提出任何的對策?答案是沒有。"},{"start":321.124,"end":341.154,"text":"答案是沒有所以我現在很高興的就是說像這個政策也跟不上你像譬如說去年同樣在內委會我們在修那個住宅法的時候啊修法同時放寬政府住宅協助措施的經濟跟社會弱勢資格的時候我們從原有、預有3名以上的未成年子女現在調整成2名對不對但是呢當時我本席就認為說會不會真的要2名"},{"start":347.017,"end":350.179,"text":"國會現在享有當年統籌各部會制定少子化對策之名但對於各部會配合少子化的一個協調、溝通跟管道"},{"start":373.315,"end":388.832,"text":"我打上一個問號是不是國會可以從上位的角度去思考說全盤人口政策怎麼樣去調整跟精進甚至於加積極跟努力成效未必會看得到但是發現那個方向是對的"},{"start":390.831,"end":414.603,"text":"韓國大大開胃這個都不是社福支出這個是對我們自己國家的一個投資主委你看看簡單的我們也會支持委員的想法意見有好的一些建議我們也會透過林政委的平台來做建議那現在你剛才提到的總檢討現在在檢討當中我們也希望說各部會都可以"},{"start":415.083,"end":415.163,"text":"緊張參與這樣的事情"}]}},{"id":"149384","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149384","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fd6e1f2718515f7663ce99dc43694a3e0f8ba9b0039caa7a65639f62fdc189b545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：好，以前是要嘛！針對你們的案子，因為涉及到行政院，包括軍公教警消，所以那一次的院會你們沒有去？那一次的考試院會通過要調高4%，那什麼時候可以正式發布？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們現在雙方會銜，行政院部分已經把軍跟教2月29號送考試院，考試院已經在3月1日把公務人員送過來，應該3月上旬，最慢3月中旬就可以了。可是它最重要的還是追溯1月1日啦！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道、我知道，預算也編了嘛！預算都編了。這個要儘快，因為大家也等了很多年，事實上這樣的制度也是後來才改的，以前不是嘛！以前是只要軍公教調薪就跟著調嘛！所以這個部分也都是需要重新檢討的地方，有很多不合理的部分能夠依現在的法，然後過去的，後來新修的這些法律也都應該重新檢討，因為軍公教、警消的相關重要性，我就不必再多說了，這是一個部分。","另外，原住民族委員會負責原住民保留地業務的，要謝謝人事長已經同意他們的專業加給採地政的專業加給，現在就是地方政府的部分，因為不是只有中央原民會要負責這個業務，這個還是要從鄉鎮……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：執行面。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，不是只有執行面，地政加給也不是只有中央的內政部地政司，包括縣政府的地政單位、鄉鎮公所，原住民保留地也是一樣，中央的原民會既然已經賦予、給予這個地政專業加給，縣政府的部分也討論過，目前進度怎麼樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我這裡跟委員報告一下，地方政府辦理原住民保留地的這些同仁也比照地政人員專業加給表，由表1調為表7。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：已經確定了嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：確定了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：函頒了嗎？什麼時候函頒的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個地方政府沒有報上來，這件事情我們再找臺東縣政府瞭解一下，委員的……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：臺東跟花蓮一起。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為目前原住民保留地業務最多的就是臺東跟花蓮，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：大約花東，好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這部分要去積極處理。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，沒問題。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不要說中央有、地方沒有，地方更辛苦，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，就先這樣，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們接下來請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","林思銘","傅崐萁","鄭天財Sra 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其中包括軍公教軍公教軍公教警校．所以那次的宴會你們沒有去．那次的宴會"},{"start":145.753,"end":170.361,"text":"這個考試院議員會通過了要調高4%那什麼時候可以發佈正式發佈大概我們現在雙方會選我們行政院部分已經把金跟教2月29號送考試院那考試院已經在3月1號把公務人員送過來大概應該3月上旬最慢的3月中旬就可以"},{"start":171.722,"end":171.862,"text":"主席"},{"start":188.479,"end":188.499,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":207.352,"end":232.929,"text":"新修的這些法例也都應該重新重新檢討因為這個軍公教錦囂他的相關的這些重要性我就不必再多說了這是一個部分另外就是我們"},{"start":235.943,"end":255.636,"text":"原住民主委員會負責這個原住民保留地業務的要謝謝人事長都已經同意他們的專業佳績地政的專業佳績那現在就是地方政府的部分因為不是只有中央人民會要負責這個業務這個還是要從鄉鎮對"},{"start":261.212,"end":290.715,"text":"我不是只有執行委員 地政家級也不是只有執行那個我說也不是只有中央的這個內政部的地政司包括縣政府的地政單位鄉鎮公所那原住民保留地也是一樣中央的延命會竟然已經賦予給這個地政專業家級所以這個縣政府的部分"},{"start":292.602,"end":314.762,"text":"這個部分有討論過目前進度怎麼樣我這裡跟委員報告一下大概地方政府他辦理原住民保留地的這一些同仁他也比照地政人員專業家級表有表意調味表情已經確定了嗎確定了航班了嗎什麼時候航班的"},{"start":316.673,"end":320.755,"text":"沒有地方政府呢地方政府沒有報上"},{"start":329.139,"end":354.31,"text":"這個地方政府沒有報上來這件事情我先找臺東縣政府去了解一下臺東跟花蓮一起主要因為目前原住民百合地業務最多的就是臺東跟花蓮所以這個部分要去積極地施政不要說中央有地方沒有地方更辛苦好不好就先這樣謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149383","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149383","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f73bc8a878b3b2c4db97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a61677080d570f7ede5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"11:09:43 - 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裡面有上百部的影片、電影其中一部有關熱比亞哇 其實在整個籌辦的過程裡面 其實台灣的社會是這樣子嘛你要放什麼電影 其實基本上是不會經過審查的只要你的這個電影分級制度它是合理的那符合這個輔導級、限制級等等的對內容其實我們是沒有意見的但是對岸不是啊"},{"start":68.263,"end":80.508,"text":"對岸跳起來我記得那時候好像整個高雄市政府被高雄市議會當時國民黨的議長整個快要翻掉了包含副市長包含現在的主委你也被趕出去"},{"start":81.985,"end":109.215,"text":"這個其實就是中國利用各種包含這個他們的觀光客要不要來台灣要不要來高雄要不要到高雄市當時六合夜市的攤商都說啊因為放這個影片害的其實背後這是什麼背後是台灣的民主台灣的自由播放了影片受到中國這一方面的制裁這一次的事件一模一樣"},{"start":111.041,"end":133.17,"text":"中國想要利用觀光客來作為他們的籌碼但是當然我們採取對等的方式我們在8月的時候我們就提出這個團客其實也不是我們提出啦我們跟我們的旅行業者來討論這個經過新冠疫情之後8月是不是可以要旅行業者大家來討論"},{"start":135.138,"end":161.145,"text":"團客可以開始來進行籌劃但是這個旅行業者就開始在籌劃的過程裡面消息出去嘛但是這個過程裡面還包含中國片面的時不時的用我們的農產品又驗出什麼樣不合中國標準的那在包含這個M503的這個航線他要片面的做改變所以我們不能只有"},{"start":162.265,"end":180.004,"text":"交通部我們不能只有觀光署這邊片面的來去決定說我們的團客開始要過去陸委會行政院必須要做相關的調控整體的考量來決定我們是不是對等的團客過去對方對等也可以團客過來"},{"start":181.445,"end":181.785,"text":"李柏毅"},{"start":203.413,"end":216.645,"text":"我們經過今天這個專案報告之後我們又開始好我們的結論就是說我們要有善意我們先來提出我們的團課6月之後又可以開始籌辦了"},{"start":218.51,"end":218.69,"text":"主委請你回應"},{"start":237.153,"end":240.017,"text":"除了剛剛委員所提到的事實上去年8月我們當然宣布對等開放之後我們也很希望他們能夠希望我們期待嘛期待到過年前所以他們有說要組彩線團到台灣來有來嘛"},{"start":253.236,"end":270.865,"text":"我們也幫他們安排希望說他們這些人回去也能夠跟他們的政府提出說確實應該也讓入客到台灣來但是沒有想到這個中間過程就是起起伏伏又涉及到台灣的一些政治的選舉等等所以才會造成對岸很多的考量"},{"start":276.408,"end":300.295,"text":"那很多人考量重點是在於說對我們實在是不公平因為他不斷的宣布他要開放到他們的團客可以到其他國家去包括港澳結果就是沒有台灣那這個對我們來講坦白講我們是難以接受啦不對等就已經很糟糕了又不公平那我想這也是應該是國人難以接受的那我們也很熱情的歡迎他們的採線團先到台灣再來勘察如何安排入客到台灣來旅遊啦"},{"start":304.076,"end":320.61,"text":"所以我想交通部也都很認真的期待這個能夠促成但是沒有想到我們後來看到的變化其實是越來越不友善謝謝主委你先請稍等一下我請交通部那個林次長我想請問一下對岸的這個對等的機關你認為對岸對等對於旅遊的這個機關"},{"start":326.215,"end":337.121,"text":"他們要開放入客團客來台灣的這個他們的旅行機關是他們的對等的這個行政機關是什麼就你所知"},{"start":339.233,"end":350.777,"text":"跟委員報告,雖然是文旅部,但事實上是不是文旅部?是國台辦嗎?所以國台辦沒有同意,那國台辦要請教國台辦的主任,再請教國台辦要問他們的主席,對不對?"},{"start":357.919,"end":373.926,"text":"所以這個層次的問題真的不是交通部也不是觀光局確實陸委會邱主委是這一次必須要決定臺灣的這個觀光的團客到底能不能過去但是最後的決定權是誰"},{"start":375.006,"end":395.085,"text":"我們遞出感染誌之後最後的決定權是誰?還是國台辦嗎?這個是我們沒有辦法質詢的單位所以說來那個次長你請休息再請邱主委所以從2019年其實大陸方面中國方面就因為臺灣進行縣市長的選舉"},{"start":397.884,"end":425.043,"text":"那因為台灣這個太民主、太自由、太多元來台灣看電視會讓這些大陸來的這些自由行的旅客會愛上台灣的民主啊所以說會愛上台灣的自由啊所以說他們就開始禁止這個自由行的旅客來台灣那到這個目前為止啊中國也還沒有開放大陸自由行的旅客來台灣是中國還沒有開放對不對對"},{"start":426.805,"end":452.027,"text":"他那個禁令還在2019年8月1號的禁令所以不是台灣不是陸委會禁止中國的自由行旅客來對不對對我們還開放了第三地的大陸人可以來台灣這個還有很多很多人搞不清楚這個還有很多人以為是我們陸委會禁止大陸旅客自由行來台灣其實我們在這邊還是要清楚的說明是大陸方面禁止他們的自由行旅客來台灣對不對對"},{"start":454.208,"end":478.715,"text":"謝謝那我們不斷地釋出這些感染值但是過程裡面還是遇到中國沒有善意的回應那總是把九二共識掛在前面說你如果沒有承認九二共識你就不要來談團客或者是你如果沒有承認九二共識你就不要來跟我們做相關的談判甚至現在今夏的這個快艇的事件是一個執法"},{"start":479.275,"end":502.312,"text":"﹗"},{"start":502.813,"end":518.673,"text":"目前大家也都很期待嘛剛剛有很多委員也期待說那6月之後的團呢暑假之後的團呢目前中國方面這些國台辦方面有沒有任何的跡象顯示說有可能有機會可以談"},{"start":519.638,"end":544.413,"text":"一般來講我跟委員報告跟委員會報告大概基本上我們在觀察中共的一些政策或是說他的面向大概都會跟他們自己的政治時程有一點關聯目前來看他們的兩會也是我們觀察他未來的政治走向包括他對國際的這樣的一個因為我們基本上也都必須要跟國際做相當程度的連結跟觀察"},{"start":546.034,"end":573.041,"text":"所以我想兩會之後我們會有一些相關的觀察報告那我想我們也會提供給交通部來做參考好 謝謝主委目前為止我們內政委員會的委員我聽起來大部分支持對等對 我想這是朝野的利益都應該對 我們都支持對等但是我要加一點就是說其實我更支持我們行政院包含陸委會要用政策性的調整"},{"start":573.681,"end":598.588,"text":"那也可以符合到所有旅行業者的期待如果說未來有機會可以交流的話大家要知道這是一個對等的交流讓我們國內的這些餐廳旅館業者也有機會享受到開放之後的這個旅行的紅利不是只有我們的旅行團出去那邊記得中國的邏輯人民幣很香你要聽他的話"},{"start":599.688,"end":621.444,"text":"所以基於對等的原則的話我們也希望可以促進臺灣島內的觀光也可以蓬勃的發展,謝謝是的,我想交通部也保留所有的彈性只要對方有調整我們就會相對應的回應好,謝謝謝謝柏毅委員質詢,謝謝主委,謝謝次長我們現在休息三分鐘"}]}},{"id":"149382","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149382","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f2bd6fe926d541c4bb97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a65f9ce4f0ed6650c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:57:46 - 11:09:25","影片長度":"00:11:39","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":699,"end_time":"2024-03-06T11:09:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:57:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":776,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時57分）主席，我想請主委跟政次。"],["主席：有請主委以及次長，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員太三：王委員好。"],["王委員美惠：主委、政次，大家好！關於這方面大家都已經說很多了，本席要跟你討論一個問題，你現在說我們在等他們釋出好意，因為長久以來我們都覺得他們在跟我們唱反調，本席在這裡要跟你請教，在這個過程當中，你們還是交通部有宣布我們從3月1日開始就可以招團去大陸玩嗎？來，請回答一下。"],["邱主任委員太三：我們在去年8月舉行的記者會裡面有說我們開放的時間點就是他們開放的時間點，我們在當時有這樣說明，後來有一些業者對交通部提出建議，他們的說法……"],["王委員美惠：是不是換政次來說明？"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，我們沒有正式宣布，但是我們有跟業者溝通說可以開始準備。"],["王委員美惠：據本席所瞭解的就是有一些團，說實在的，我們也會考慮到因為景氣差，在這3年的疫情期間，觀光客也難找，大家要招團出去外國，也希望早日可以招團。你們說有可能明年3月1日開始就可以招團去大陸，不過在這個過程當中，因為變化多端，我們也不知道阿共仔要對臺灣怎麼樣，在這幾天有了改變的時候，我們覺得不行，我們常常說我們要去人家家裡玩，可是人家又不歡迎，那當然就是禁了嘛！在這個禁止的過程當中，本席要跟你檢討的是，有旅行業的理事長反映說這個的影響很大，不是我們說禁止就好的。禁止是因為要顧及到臺灣的主權，說來說去也是臺灣的主權啦，在這裡面最嚴重的、可以讓你們說出我們決心不出團去大陸的，是什麼原因？"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，主要當初是一個善意啦，我們從8月……"],["王委員美惠：對啦，我們一直有善意、一直有善意，但一定有什麼原因讓你們會突然決定我們不要出團了。"],["林次長國顯：對，所以我剛剛有報告過，今年以來就是有一些相關事件，包含外交上的問題，包含M503，最後就是在2月7號決定了，既然他們一直都沒有善意的回應，原定的開放就只開放3個月，因為旅行業者已經攬客了，我們要降低他們的損失，也要降低民眾的不便，所以這3個月還是如期出團，6月以後的就觀察這段期間的互動，如果大陸那邊有善意回應，我們也可以隨時討論。"],["王委員美惠：所以如果有互動，他們願意開放大陸民眾來我們臺灣的時候，我們也可以隨時調整開放。"],["林次長國顯：沒有錯，政策上是這樣的。"],["王委員美惠：對啦！政次，在這裡本席向你請教一下，M503的改變對我們航道的影響有多大？"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，當年在協調M503的時候是說，他們如果要開放南向北跟121、122跟123……"],["王委員美惠：沒有啦，我現在問的是到目前、目前……"],["林次長國顯：……要雙邊協商。"],["王委員美惠：目前！到目前的影響有多大，你說目前的情況就好了。"],["林次長國顯：原來是說北向南要往西偏6海里，目的是說萬一遇到狀況他往西偏，偏航6海里，這樣比較不會偏到我們這邊來，對於我們航班的影響比較小，但是他現在不要偏航，直接恢復到原線上飛，對我們來講就是有不確定的因素會影響到航班……"],["王委員美惠：這樣就比較危險了。"],["林次長國顯：第二個比較重要的是122、123，一個是緊鄰馬祖，一個是緊鄰金門的終端管制區，這個會對我們有不確定的干擾，因為我們這邊是在起飛，而他要降落，所以兩邊要先講好，這個動作應該要先溝通協調，再來發布比較好。"],["王委員美惠：所以次長，本席……"],["林次長國顯：他們1月30號發布，2月1號就實施，這個是太匆促了。"],["王委員美惠：聽了你的解釋，本席也覺得M503這個問題是非常的大，以你們專業的來說，飛機用時速900公里在飛的時候，31秒就超過去了，所以安全性的問題、國安的問題是非常的要緊，所以……"],["林次長國顯：所以一般這種都要先講好。"],["王委員美惠：所以說來說去，你們也是為了臺灣才會做出這樣的政策。有關這個部分，本席在這裡要跟你探討的是，你們已經做出決定了，3月到5月底都可以出團，這都沒問題嘛！"],["林次長國顯：是，沒有問題。"],["王委員美惠：他們也沒有爭議嘛，現在就是他們之前招攬出團的部分，你們知道目前有多少受到影響嗎？"],["林次長國顯：估計3月是1,700團，下個月……"],["王委員美惠：不是啦！政次，我現在要問你的是接下來不能去旅遊的部分啦！"],["林次長國顯：6月1號之後的部分，觀光署有嗎？"],["王委員美惠：你們有統計嗎？請觀光署。"],["周副署長廷彰：報告委員，我們目前初步跟旅行公會統計的資料，3月到5月大概是有4,000團左右……"],["王委員美惠：那個我知道，我是說不能出去的部分，6月之後的……"],["周副署長廷彰：6月的話，其實影響就比較小了。"],["王委員美惠：影響比較小是多少團？我現在要問的是這個！說有影響，1團也是影響、10團也是影響、100團也是影響，到底到目前為止有多少團……"],["周副署長廷彰：報告委員，有三個原因，第一個是3月到5月可以出團，第二個是可以併團到3月到5月，第三個是可以改……"],["王委員美惠：你是把我當成3歲小孩喔，我怎麼會不知道可以併團，我現在要問的就是6月以後不能出去的嘛！"],["周副署長廷彰：因為6月以後的可能還沒有成團啊！"],["王委員美惠：還沒成團的就是沒有被影響到啊！這樣是不是沒有被影響到？沒有成團就是還沒有收錢，還沒有收訂金，那也就是沒有被影響到啊！但是現在講起來不是這樣耶，是現在已經收訂金、有成團的所受到影響的嚴重性，有的旅行社只招攬大陸團而已，並沒有招攬其他的團，現在如果要把他所招攬的大陸團轉介到其他地區旅遊要如何處理，這才是比較嚴重的，如果他們除了有招攬大陸團，還有日本團或其他地區的旅遊團，還可以溝通轉團啊。我現在要請教的是說，未來如果像你這樣說的話，依照你現在所獲得的訊息來看，6月以後是沒有半團了喔！"],["周副署長廷彰：報告委員，現在他們還在處理，就是旅行社這邊我們給他一個彈性，他可以併到3月到5月的出團數，或者是可以改變目的地……"],["王委員美惠：好啦！請問就目前所處理的情形，可以併入5月底之前出團的有多少？"],["周副署長廷彰：剛剛我們跟委員報告的……"],["王委員美惠：四千多團？"],["周副署長廷彰：對，目前掌握的大概是4,000團左右。"],["王委員美惠：沒有併團的呢？以你手邊資料所瞭解的，這個部分有多少？"],["周副署長廷彰：這個部分我們是先調查3月到5月的部分。"],["王委員美惠：喔！我說給你聽，現在的爭點都不是3月到5月，現在都是在說不能出去的啦。政次，本席要跟你討論的是受到影響的部分，因為我們臺灣也需要觀光客來旅遊，像你們今年就訂定了1,200萬人次觀光客來臺灣旅遊的目標嘛，你們訂定的這個目標有包括大陸旅客也不一定，但是你們剛剛說了，就算不包括大陸旅客也可以達標，然而現在的問題是外界都說民進黨「頇顢做代誌」，讓大陸的人不能來，這個才嚴重啦！","政次，你跟我都是領臺灣百姓的錢，不管是哪個黨，在這裡說話都是希望臺灣好，希望來臺的觀光客可以比較多啦。所以本席今天要跟你討論的是沒有出團的部分，到目前的情況，我不是懷疑他們胡亂做然後要來向你們申請補助，我的意思是說，你們要怎麼處理這些沒有併團、沒有在5月底出去但已經收取訂金的部分？你們要怎麼處理，有一個idea嗎？還沒有嗎？沒關係……"],["林次長國顯：我請副署長向你報告一下。"],["王委員美惠：好。"],["周副署長廷彰：跟委員做個說明，3到5月就是我們給旅行社做彈性處理的方案，所以這個部分完全可以出團，沒有什麼訂金上的問題……"],["王委員美惠：我知道！"],["周副署長廷彰：至於6月的部分，為什麼現在還在……因為它是一個變動值，所以我們希望他們能夠併到5月……"],["王委員美惠：主席，麻煩再給我1分鐘的時間，謝謝。"],["周副署長廷彰：它是個變動值，所以我們希望他們能夠調到3月到5月之間的行程，或者是說他們可以改變目的地。"],["王委員美惠：我跟你說，你今天這樣的說明表示你也沒有統計6月到底有多少團，不過你回答我的是到目前完全都沒有啦。我要求你們在會後把資料提供給我，我覺得你們要有一個規劃，不要讓外界說我們的旅行社因為民進黨都要倒了，這樣聽起來真的不好。真的要有作為，不管什麼事情，碰到了就是要解決，但是涉及主權的事情一定要顧好，要對等嘛。不能說我們去人家那裡旅遊，但人家卻不來我們這裡旅遊，不能這樣，所以我覺得你們是有這個氣魄，但是有這個氣魄之下，未來對於這些業者要怎麼去提供幫助才是最重要的。以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝，非常謝謝美惠委員的質詢。所以你看，不分政黨，我們都希望交通部觀光署趕快研議出來，不能夠用這樣子來回應委員，好不好？這是不負責任的態度。謝謝。","繼續我們請李柏毅委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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回應我們也可以隨時討論"},{"start":215.101,"end":220.684,"text":"先說他們有互動他們有願意說開放他們的阿囧愛人來我們台灣的時候我們不一定也是可以隨時、條件開放啊!沒錯!政策上是這樣!對啦!那在這兩名政治本席來請教一下有零三一這個改變對我們的航道應用有多大來?"},{"start":237.23,"end":242.115,"text":"跟委員報告,當年在協調503的時候是說,他如果要開放南向北,跟這個121213,要雙邊協商,他現在我們來是說,這個北向南要往西偏6海里,這目的是說,萬一遇到狀況,"},{"start":261.673,"end":261.933,"text":"王美惠議員"},{"start":286.897,"end":296.942,"text":"這個會跟我們有不確定的干擾因為我們現在是在起飛阿姨要降落所以兩邊要先講好這個動作應該要先溝通協調再來發佈比較好1月30號發佈2月1號的實施這個是太衝突了因為你的解說我們也覺得在503這個問題是非常大因為以你們專業來說我們法定基金98公"},{"start":316.317,"end":317.718,"text":"所以說來說去,也委託台灣可以做出這種政策"},{"start":336.016,"end":340.06,"text":"在這裏面本身要跟你談到的說,決策你已經決策了,在這個3月到5月底都可以出團,這都沒問題嘛,它也沒爭議嘛,現在就是說,跟我去找這裡的,你敢知道目前有多少,應用有多少沒來?"},{"start":357.057,"end":365.324,"text":"我們目前初步跟旅行公會統計的資料那3月到5月大概是有4000團左右"},{"start":384.844,"end":389.166,"text":"6月的話其實影響就比較小了影響比較小是多少團啦我現在是要問說應用一團也應用到10團也應用到18團也應用到是到底到目前為止"},{"start":402.694,"end":404.095,"text":"因為6月以後可能還沒有成團啊"},{"start":425.792,"end":429.637,"text":"這樣是不是沒影響到?沒成團就是沒有酒精、沒有酒精啊!就是歷關都沒影響到啊!感染到現在說起來不是這樣耶!是現在有酒精、有酒團的人"},{"start":441.169,"end":445.553,"text":"但是這個嚴重是有的人專門去找大陸團而已他沒有去找白團啊他現在啦他所找的大陸團要來轉介叫人去報委員時要入獄處理才是嚴重啦他如果去找大陸團、日本團什麼團都可以溝通一下什麼我現在是要向你請教說"},{"start":467.153,"end":475.099,"text":"報告委員因為就是說現在他們還在處理嘛就是旅行社這邊我們給他一個彈性他可以併到這個3月到5月的這個出團數或者是說他是改變這樣什麼地方好啦,我們還沒先處理到六月底要處理的可以變六月底有多少"},{"start":496.162,"end":505.544,"text":"剛剛我們跟委員報告 目前掌握的是大概4000團左右這個部分我們是先調查3月到5月的部分我講給你聽 現在的政典我不是3月到5月 現在都是說不能出去的啦 政治"},{"start":523.288,"end":525.849,"text":"在這方面本身要跟你說的就是因為我們台灣也需要觀光站起來像你們今年一定說一千兩百萬人可以來觀光可以來台灣玩嘛"},{"start":540.037,"end":543.902,"text":"在規定的當中﹐不一定包括大陸﹐也不一定﹐但你剛才說的說﹐我們沒有包括大陸﹐也可以答表﹐現在的問題﹐就是說在外面都說﹐"},{"start":554.997,"end":559.36,"text":"民進黨航班做事,要讓人們大陸的不可以來,這才是嚴重。所以政治,你看,都是捏台灣白色的錢,沒帶一桶的。在這裡說的是希望台灣好,觀光界可以好。"},{"start":578.451,"end":580.232,"text":"所以本事是要跟你說：這個沒出團的家：搞不好一個：我不是發言說他們後來後備做：要來你們申請職：我的意思是說：你們要怎麼去打這個沒評論的：沒在國會堆出去：有條件的：你們要怎麼處理：有一個idea好不好"},{"start":605.862,"end":608.823,"text":"跟委員做個說明就是說3到5月就是我們給這個旅行社做一個彈性處理的一個方案所以這個部分完全可以出團還有什麼這個定金商的問題那6月這個部分為什麼現在還在是它是一個變動值"},{"start":628.47,"end":631.995,"text":"所以我們希望他能夠調到這個3月到5月之間的一個行程那或者是說他可以來改變這個地點"},{"start":643.65,"end":645.272,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":663.951,"end":668.413,"text":"這這樣聽起來真的不好,真的有作為,不管什麼事情,登場就是要改觀,要不然主管的事情,一定要顧,要對等嘛,不能說我們要人家到處走,人家又不要來,人家到處走,"},{"start":683.258,"end":684.319,"text":"王美惠委員"}]}},{"id":"149381","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149381","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f9c584c28eb73d75ab97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a628cd4c97fd0558ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:45:48 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M503的問題，第一個，2018年時他們還是有團客來，我們也有團客去，這個是純粹經貿的議題，對於 M503的變動，當時他們要加所謂的春節加班機，我們就給它暫停。"],["許委員宇甄：可是春節的加班機暫停損害的是我們大陸臺商要回家的權利，所以這根本是打我們自己的小孩給別人看。"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，基本上，這是雙向的，所有的飛機都是雙向在飛的。"],["許委員宇甄：我也想知道2018年當時斷交三個國家，團客赴陸都沒有禁止，為什麼那時候沒有禁止，現在禁止，是因為那時候局勢不緊張，現在局勢比較緊張嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是、不是，我剛剛提到經貿的議題最好是純經貿來做考量，最好不要有政治議題的干預。"],["許委員宇甄：因為剛剛一直提到M503。"],["邱主任委員太三：我剛剛就講了，他們有inbound進來，我們當然有outbound出去，這是對等的，就經貿上來講是對等的。"],["許委員宇甄：針對這個部分，我覺得當時的狀況也是這樣子，結果現在的狀況卻要禁止。"],["邱主任委員太三：不一樣，問題是它也禁止他們的人來啊！"],["許委員宇甄：這個部分等一下本席再跟你探討。你在報告的第2頁裡面有提到，陸方的反間諜法可能會造成國人赴陸人身安全的風險增加，我想請教一下，從2017年公布這個法到現在，有沒有我們的旅行團業者、旅客受到拘留的情形發生？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上，國人最近這一兩年在大陸因為大陸制定了這些相關的法律，包括最近又有一個所謂的保守國家機密法，那我們陸委會一再的在我們例行的記者會都有告訴國人……"],["許委員宇甄：好，我來告訴部長，從2017年到現在，都沒有我們的旅客到大陸去旅遊因為這個反間諜法而受到拘留的情形，所以我覺得不要這樣來恐嚇我們的人民。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員如果要的話，我會把我們統計到國人在這幾年被大陸……"],["許委員宇甄：好，麻煩你把相關的資料給我，因為這是旅遊公會給我的相關資料，那我也希望你們提供官方的資料來做一個佐證。"],["邱主任委員太三：我們沒有禁止自由行，所以連自由行的也有受到……"],["許委員宇甄：另外，我想要在這邊再請教一下交通部，就是有關這次用的法令是發展觀光條例第五十三條第一項有損害國家利益者，請問你們對所謂的有損害國家利益者是怎麼定義的？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，有損害國家利益之虞就是有可能，所以我們用旅行業管理規則第四十九條第十九款提醒他們在這段期間就不要出團。"],["許委員宇甄：好，那我想請教一下，在第五十三條第一項裡面有規定到禁止團客赴陸嗎？可以禁止團客赴陸嗎？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，那是一個不確定的法律概念，是用這個方式……"],["許委員宇甄：在這個條文裡面只有說可以處以罰鍰、停業或是廢止他的執照，並沒有提到你可以禁止團客赴陸，所以你引用錯誤的法令，然後造成我們觀光旅遊業者的損失，這個部分應該由誰來負責？"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，基本上，旅行業要遵守觀光署的監管，那觀光署認為像這樣我們開放、他們沒有開放是對國家利益不利，所以我們提醒業者在這段期間就不要去。"],["許委員宇甄：可是依這一條當時的立法精神，有損國家利益是針對個人、不肖業者如果有損害這個部分才會引用這個法條，並不是你現在所謂的這個情形，所以我覺得引用錯誤是很大的問題。還有，可能在這邊也要拜託交通部觀光署，因為這一次已經造成我們旅遊業者非常大的損失，其實很多旅遊業者都有到各部會去陳情，所以本席在這邊要求由政府全額賠償觀光旅遊業者的損失，可以嗎？"],["周副署長廷彰：報告委員，我們為了要降低這個衝擊，所以在3月到5月之間他還是可以如期出團，那6月之後的會有三個措施，第一個是他可以改到其他的國家或目的地；第二個是他可以併到3月到5月來出團；第三個是他可以解約。"],["許委員宇甄：好，我想請教一下，如果你本來是打算暑假出團，因為那時候剛好有放假，要帶小孩出團，你現在可以跟他講改到5月，然後請假不要上課去出國嗎？"],["周副署長廷彰：他可以選擇到其他的目的地。"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得其實你這樣的政策就是為難觀光業者，尤其是觀光業者他們在跟大陸洽談的時候，我相信常常都是整年度的配套措施，包括淡季、旺季、飯店還有所有的機票，這個都是有配套的措施，你們單方面的做一個在3到5月才能夠出團的禁令，只有3到5月才能出團，6月之後可以改到其他國家，我覺得這樣子對觀光旅遊業者是不公平的，所以本席還是在這邊再次強調，希望政府能夠全額賠償觀光旅遊業者的損失，謝謝。"],["周副署長廷彰：我們會再跟公會這邊來討論。"],["主席：好，謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢。","對不起，觀光署真的是要把這個評估還有配套的措施趕快提出來，而不是為難旅行業者，你們也必須要提供到本委員會來啊！好不好？","好，我宣布一下，我們在李柏毅委員質詢完畢以後休息3分鐘。","現在有請王美惠委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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的說法我是不是請他們因為那個我們不曉得他們內部的"},{"start":143.487,"end":144.688,"text":"這個決策是交通部決定的嗎?"},{"start":166.863,"end":168.763,"text":"兩岸的問題其實是屬於總統的職權還是這個是屬於蔡總統決定的"},{"start":190.432,"end":209.702,"text":"我剛剛這個次長已經跟委員報告了基本上我們是原來就是跨部會當然也有邀國安單位因為剛剛我在一開始有跟委員會說明的就是說基本上如果入客來台灣的話那基本上會涉及我們陸委會跟國安單位的業務"},{"start":210.422,"end":211.042,"text":"相關的會議討論有沒有會議記錄?"},{"start":237.337,"end":240.64,"text":"宣布恢復兩岸的團體旅遊的時候為什麼是由陸委會先行宣布但是禁止團客赴陸"},{"start":254.472,"end":265.287,"text":"卻是由這個交通部觀光署來說明陸委會卻不出聲請問邱主委你對禁止團客赴陸有什麼看法這個措施會不會影響陸委會對大陸溝通的業務進行影響"},{"start":270.835,"end":294.282,"text":"請說第一個8月24號是我們會同交通部同時來做對外開放的這樣的一個公佈至於這個我剛剛一開始就也跟委員報告過了入客要來台灣是我們陸委會執掌但是我們的國人要到赴陸是交通部執掌請問一下就是說這個措施對於你們兩岸的溝通會不會有影響"},{"start":296.263,"end":318.157,"text":"你說這個政策的決定基本上從一開始大家就透過各種的管道包括委員熱心的去協調那您覺得影響大不大是大還是不大對我們影響當然很大因為單方開放另外一方拒絕開放那特別是對我們不但是不對等而且也是不公平因為他已經開放138個國家既然影響大的話我們就要來解決問題"},{"start":322.099,"end":322.659,"text":"當時我們先解決所謂M503的問題第一個"},{"start":350.844,"end":358.947,"text":"當時他們還是有團客來啊我們也有團客去啊2018年那這個是純粹經貿的議題嘛那我們現在是認為說M503這樣的一個變動呢在當時我們就用所謂的他們要春節的加班機我們給他暫停"},{"start":368.386,"end":392.892,"text":"可是春節的加班機暫停沉害的是我們大陸台商要回家的這樣的一個權利耶這基本上是打我們自己的小孩在給別人看啦基本上這是雙向的啦所有的飛機都是雙向在飛的2018年當時斷交了三個國家團客都沒有這個復入都沒有禁止那為什麼那時候沒有禁止現在禁止是因為那時候局勢不緊張現在局勢比較緊張嗎"},{"start":396.033,"end":414.376,"text":"基本上我們剛剛提到了經貿的議題我們最好是純經貿來做考量絕對最好不要有政治上的議題的干涉啦所以我只是覺得因為剛剛一直聽到F503嘛我剛剛不是講他們有英磅來進來我們當然有奧磅進出去嘛所以這是對等的啊就經貿上還是對等的啊我只是覺得說當時的狀況也是這樣子的結果現在的狀況卻被禁止問題是他禁止他們的人來啊好這個部分呢等一下本席來跟你探討"},{"start":425.158,"end":449.127,"text":"P2你在你的報告的第二頁裡面有提到就是說陸方的反間諜法可能會造成國人附入人身安全的風險增加我想請教一下這個從2018年2017年公佈到現在有沒有我們的這個旅行團業者有旅客因為受到拘留的情形發生"},{"start":449.667,"end":449.787,"text":"從2017年到現在"},{"start":468.792,"end":482.688,"text":"都沒有我們的旅客因為到大陸去旅遊團因為這個反建典法而受到拘留的情形所以我覺得這樣不要這樣來恐嚇我的人民我想我如果要的話我會把我們統計到統計到我們國人在這幾年被大陸"},{"start":485.911,"end":487.712,"text":"請問一下所謂的有損害國家利益者你們是什麼定義的"},{"start":516.27,"end":538.362,"text":"報告委員,損害國家利益之餘有可能所以我們用旅行業管理規則第19條提醒他們在這段期間就不要出團那我想請教一下在第53條第一項裡面有規定到說禁止團客復入嗎?可以禁止團客復入嗎?"},{"start":539.663,"end":559.243,"text":"包委那是一個不確定法律概念所以這個條文裡面只有說可以處以罰還或者是停業或是停止這個他的執照並沒有提到說你可以禁止團客來復發展所以你引用錯誤的法令然後造成我們這觀光旅遊業者的損失這個部分應該由誰來負責"},{"start":562.755,"end":577.305,"text":"根委員報告基本上旅行業要遵守觀光署的監管那觀光署認為這樣的我們開放他們沒有開放是對國家利益不利所以我們提醒業者這段期間就不要做"},{"start":592.535,"end":592.695,"text":"主席"},{"start":617.719,"end":639.199,"text":"報告委員,我們為了要降低衝擊,所以3月到5月之間還是可以如期出團。6月之後有三個措施,第一個是可以改到其他國家目的地,第二是可以並到3月或5月出團。我想請教一下,如果你本來是打算暑假出團的,因為那時候剛好有放假帶小孩出團,"},{"start":639.659,"end":639.699,"text":"許宇甄議員"},{"start":659.449,"end":659.609,"text":"我們會再跟這個公會這邊再來討論"},{"start":687.264,"end":687.725,"text":"好 謝謝許宇甄委員的這個質詢那個 對不起 這個觀光署"}]}},{"id":"149380","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149380","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fff11c5d94b8e8321b97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a69b0160faa0cdae515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:35:44 - 10:45:34","影片長度":"00:09:50","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":590,"end_time":"2024-03-06T10:45:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:35:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":672,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時35分）謝謝主席。我們請陸委會主委。"],["主席：請邱主委。"],["黃委員捷：主委，首先我還是要請教一下，因為大家都在說我們兩岸交流以及觀光應該要在對等的基礎之上，這個對等到底指的是什麼？基本的原則是什麼？"],["邱主任委員太三：我想對等毫無問題，就是大家在政策上如果要開放的話，應該是相互來開放，第二個就是實質、現實上產生的效益差異多少，這個當然後續可以再去做一些相關的調整。"],["黃委員捷：是，為什麼我一開始會問這個呢？因為其實剛剛有其他委員提到說我們臺灣人很喜歡去日本消費，在日本消費非常多，也有逆差的狀況，這樣是不是就不對等？為什麼這樣沒有不對等？其實剛剛主委就已經回答了嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["黃委員捷：對等的基礎就是兩邊都同樣是完全開放的狀態，就不會有這個問題，所以為什麼我們跟中國之間會很常被說沒有對等，因為我從剛剛整個報告聽下來，我整理了一下，目前其實中國到臺灣的政策是團客跟自由行完全不行，對嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：是的，而且它已經開放了138個國家團客可以去，就是沒有臺灣。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["邱主任委員太三：對我們差別待遇。"],["黃委員捷：那我們臺灣去中國，自由行一直都是可以的，對嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，所以其實臺灣到中國到現在都還可以自由行，我們買一張機票就可以過去，這個是政策上很明顯的一個不對等，對嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["黃委員捷：在產值上其實剛剛也有提到，前面幾位委員也都有把這個數字找出來了，過去中國到臺灣的產值大概是739億，臺灣去中國是806億，我們逆差高達66億，以現在的政策情況，如果中國的團客跟自由行都不能來臺灣，我們這739億是不是直接歸零？"],["邱主任委員太三：這是必然的嘛！"],["黃委員捷：沒有錯，所以是直接歸零，代表說我們臺灣業者的損失不只是旅遊業，相關的餐飲業、相關的娛樂業，全部的損失就是這麼多，739億，這是一個很明顯不對等的情況，對嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["黃委員捷：再來，人次我也有去查，去年其實因為在中國團客跟自由行都沒有辦法來臺灣的情況下，只有22萬人來到臺灣，這包括可能是第三地的、商務的，林林總總也就22萬人。臺灣去中國因為自由行都還有開放，所以大概有176萬人，整整差了八倍。其實從政策、到產值、到人次，很明顯就是一個非常不對等的狀態，請問以上的數字有說錯嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：根據交通部的統計，確實是這樣子。"],["黃委員捷：沒有錯。再來，我要講一下這個對等不只是說從政策、產值到人次，其實我要講，過去一直以來都是中國在對臺灣進行片面的改變現狀，為什麼？剛剛前面有委員提到為什麼馬政府時期OK，然後到了民進黨執政時期不OK？很明確啊！因為國台辦就講啦！他們說有九二共識才要開放，他們很明顯就是要以商逼政，這其實國台辦從頭到尾都沒有在掩飾它的政治意圖，以政治來進行商業的干預。過去從馬政府時期到蔡政府時期，蔡政府一上任的時候，中國來臺的旅客就有非常明顯的落差，418萬人最後只剩下351萬人，他們其實就很明確講了，你民進黨執政，我就是要用來臺人數來干預你執政的影響，這是第一個。","到了2019年7月的時候，國台辦也禁止中國的自由行來臺，當時國台辦是怎麼說的？它說有九二共識才有自由行，完全不演了，它就是很明顯要用政治的手段來干預我們兩岸的交流，這樣有對等嗎？再來，剛剛主委也有提到去年12月其實中國已經開放138個國家的團客跟自由行到世界各國，但是獨漏臺灣，從頭到尾就是沒有要跟我們對等的交流啦！所以從頭到尾就是在欺負臺灣。再來，甚至到了今年1月有更嚴重的事情，就是他們擅改M503的航路，我也希望主委再明確地表達一下為什麼這部分會嚴重影響飛安，甚至是不是有模糊海峽中線的意圖？可不可以簡單答復？"],["邱主任委員太三：確實，我想國際社會也都對於中國擅自更改M503這樣的路線，說這樣是在片面改變現狀，而且會影響到整個區域的國際飛航安全，因為它就是一條國際航道。"],["黃委員捷：所以這其實是值得大家關注的事情，擅改M503航路這件事情是中國一直在片面對臺灣改變我們兩岸的現狀，最後當然他們還加碼，不只沒有善意，以上聽起來林林總總對臺灣已經很沒有善意了，還非常惡意地加碼1月的諾魯斷交，然後跟我們搶邦交國，以上這些林林總總的事情，國台辦還片面的說我方的作法不得人心，但從頭到尾沒有溝通誠意的是不是就是中國？我先問啦！以上他們在進行這些措施的時候，請問中國有來跟臺灣溝通過嗎？我們陸委會有接到任何消息嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：當然不可能，對臺的惡意行為絕對……"],["黃委員捷：沒有嘛！完全沒有嘛！這個對等的溝通在哪裡嘛？我想問一下這一次我們在釋出我們很願意開放團客，用對等的前提，其實我們釋出非常大的善意，是嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：對，沒有錯，而且從去年8月……"],["黃委員捷：請問中方給了什麼回應？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上是沒有。"],["黃委員捷：已讀不回，還是未讀未回？根本就不理我們，對嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：初期他們是認為現階段不談這個議題，但是也沒有所謂明確的否決，但隨著臺灣選舉的基調上面，他們的說法上就越來越朝向負面。"],["黃委員捷：好，我就問一個很明確的，如果當中方給了什麼樣的回應，我們就可以對等的來開放？可以開放什麼？可不可以請主委這邊給一個明確的指令？就是當中方答應他們開放團客跟自由行來臺灣，我們就可以對等的開放，是這樣對嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：對，基本上，我們還是會按照過去的經驗上，從彼此的人數上，為什麼我們一開始設定所謂每日2,000人的計算基準？倒不是限定每日一定是2,000人，而是一段期間的總數，這是在算總數，因為2019年它可以從團客本來幾百萬人次，調控到只剩下85萬人次，所以中國在對臺灣的觀光旅遊也不斷地隨著臺灣的政情發展變化而控制它的人數。"],["黃委員捷：我也希望我們維持這個原則，繼續釋出善意，但我不希望我們的善意是真心換絕情、「好心被雷親」，一定要秉持住這個基本原則。最後，我還是要問一下，這次有許多旅遊業者可能因為我們釋出的資訊不夠明確，他們已經先行組團，所以我們今年3月到5月確實也還是有讓這些本來已經組團的開放，對嗎？請副署長說明一下。","基於以上的……"],["主席：是副署長，還是次長？你要請哪一位回答？"],["黃委員捷：次長也可以。"],["主席：請次長。"],["黃委員捷：我先明確地把問題說完，因為你們確實在釋出的訊息上有一點落差，讓旅遊業者覺得已經可以組團了，所以我們在3到5月有一個緩衝，儘量讓他們在這段時間本來已經組好的團還是可以赴陸旅遊、赴中旅遊，對嗎？"],["林次長國顯：是的，因為我們發覺有些旅行社已經開始攬客，所以基本上3月1日到5月31日這3個月，降低他們已經組團的這個損失，6月1日之後我們會觀察這段期間……"],["黃委員捷：可不可以請次長明確說明，我們在這段時間會如何協助業者，以及稍微受到影響的這些旅客的權益，我們祭出什麼樣的措施來協助他們，讓國人安心還是最重要的。"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，基本上3月1日到5月31日已經成團的就如期出團，6月以後的儘量併到前面來、改團或是退費，我們觀光署會來協助，基本上是這樣。"],["黃委員捷：好，這部分最後還是要叮嚀，在釋出訊息的時候一定要跟業者有明確的溝通，讓他們知道我們的政策是什麼，並且確保所有旅客的權益。最後我還是要小小的提醒，畢竟現在赴中的風險逐漸提升，確實也有所謂的反間諜法，我還是希望我們在所有的權益跟風險上都要明確地讓業者以及所有的旅客知道，好嗎？"],["林次長國顯：是，謝謝委員提醒。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢，謝謝主委、謝謝次長、謝謝副署長。","請許委員宇甄質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","沈伯洋","賴士葆","鄭正鈐","羅智強","張啓楷","洪孟楷","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後\n續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.4653437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.2415937500000003,"end":3.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.886593750000001,"end":18.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.04909375,"end":20.550968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.550968750000003,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.360343750000002,"end":36.767843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.78909375,"end":78.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.20909375000001,"end":76.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.97221875000001,"end":80.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.05221875000001,"end":85.94159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.06909375000001,"end":80.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.72721875,"end":82.34721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.94159375000001,"end":86.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.11034375,"end":86.12721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.43096875,"end":95.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.96534375,"end":120.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.92346875000001,"end":122.17221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.81346875000001,"end":202.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.25659375,"end":214.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.41096875000002,"end":252.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.56096875000003,"end":270.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.65534375000004,"end":272.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.25409375000004,"end":280.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.01659375,"end":298.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.57909375,"end":299.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.84909375,"end":300.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.96284375000005,"end":308.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.16846875000005,"end":316.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.68596875000003,"end":317.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.71971875,"end":349.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.54596875000004,"end":349.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.56284375,"end":349.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.55846875000003,"end":350.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.94659375000003,"end":358.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.08159375,"end":352.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.55721875,"end":359.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.33346875,"end":359.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.40096875,"end":362.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.45159375000003,"end":363.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.04159375,"end":374.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.77409375,"end":377.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.71909375,"end":377.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.53721875,"end":378.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.60471875,"end":378.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.68909375000004,"end":378.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.95909375,"end":378.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.97596875000005,"end":379.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.02659375,"end":382.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.49909375000004,"end":380.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.97534375000004,"end":393.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.48846875000004,"end":397.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.48784375,"end":405.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.54971875,"end":419.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.96534375000005,"end":432.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.99284375,"end":438.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.74721875,"end":445.14284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.53096875000006,"end":452.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.22159375,"end":513.9422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.54034375000003,"end":494.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.6003437500001,"end":530.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.8659687500001,"end":517.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.01596875,"end":543.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.3572187500001,"end":531.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.1484687500001,"end":556.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.45034375,"end":583.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.2647187499999,"end":584.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAK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主委首先晚上請教一下因為大家都在說這個我們兩岸交流以及這個觀光應該要在對等的基礎之上那這個對等到底指的是什麼基本的原則是什麼我想對等呢 好有問題啦就是說大家在政策上如何"},{"start":25.441,"end":25.561,"text":"為什麼這樣沒有不對等?"},{"start":52.43,"end":76.224,"text":"其實剛剛主委就已經回答了嘛對等的基礎就是兩邊都是同樣是完全開放的狀態就不會有這個問題嘛所以為什麼我們跟中國之間會很常被說沒有對等因為其實我從剛剛整個報告聽下來我整理了一下目前其實中國到台灣的政策是團客跟自由行完全不行對嗎是的而且他已經開放了138個國家團客可以去就是沒有台灣"},{"start":80.106,"end":94.668,"text":"沒錯,那我們台灣去中國是自由行都一直都是可以的,對嗎?對。沒錯,所以其實台灣到中國到現在都還可以自由行,我們買一張機票就可以過去,這個是政策上很明顯的一個不對的,對嗎?"},{"start":96.15,"end":96.51,"text":"這是必然的嘛"},{"start":122.861,"end":130.151,"text":"沒有錯 所以是直接歸零嘛代表說我們台灣的業者的損失不只是旅遊業相關的餐飲業相關的娛樂業全部的損失就是這麼多739億這是很明顯一個不對等的情況對嗎對"},{"start":138.403,"end":157.449,"text":"那再來其實仁次我也有去查 去年其實因為在中國團客跟自由行都沒有辦法來台灣的情況下只有22萬人來到台灣 那這包括可能是第三地的商務的就其實林林總總也就22萬人 那台灣去中國因為自由行都還有開放所以大概有176萬人 整整差了8倍"},{"start":160.53,"end":168.975,"text":"那這其實從政策到產值到人次很明顯就是一個非常不對等的狀態請問以上的數字有說錯嗎根據交通部的統計這是確實是這樣子沒有錯好那再來我要講一下這個對等不只是說這從政策產值到人次其實我要講"},{"start":182.063,"end":198.293,"text":"過去都一直以來都是中國在對台灣進行片面的改變現狀為什麼其實剛剛前面有委員提到說為什麼馬政府時期OK然後到了民進黨執政時期不OK很明確啊因為他們就國台辦就講啦他們說有九二共識才要開放"},{"start":203.325,"end":222.034,"text":"他們很明顯就是要以商逼政嘛這其實國台辦從頭到尾都沒有在掩飾他的政治意圖以政治來進行商業的干預那其實過去從馬政府時期到蔡政府時期其實當蔡政府一上任的時候這個人"},{"start":223.274,"end":252.294,"text":"中國來臺的旅客就有非常明顯的落差是418萬人最後只剩下351萬人他們其實就很明確講了你民進黨執政我就是要用人數來臺的人數來干預你的執政的這個影響那這是第一個那到了2019年7月的時候國台辦也禁止中國的自由行來臺當時國台辦是怎麼說的他說有九二共識才有自由行"},{"start":253.575,"end":255.177,"text":"昨年12月其實中國已經開放138個國家的團客跟自由行到世界各國但是獨落台灣"},{"start":273.768,"end":298.322,"text":"從頭到尾就是沒有要讓台灣跟我們對等的交流啦所以從頭到尾就是在欺負台灣嘛那再來甚至是到了今年1月非常更嚴重的事情就是他們篡改M03的航路那剛剛主委這部分我也希望你再明確的表達一下為什麼這個會嚴重影響飛安甚至是不是有模糊海峽中線的意圖"},{"start":301.681,"end":315.481,"text":"確實我想國際社會也都對於中國擅自更改503這樣的一個路線發出說這是在片面改變現狀而且會影響到整個區域的國際飛航的安全因為它就是一條國際航道"},{"start":317.771,"end":345.832,"text":"所以這其實是值得大家關注的事情善改M503航路這件事情是中國一直在片面的對台灣改變我們兩岸的現狀那最後當然他們還加碼就是不只沒有善意以上聽起來林林總總對台灣已經很沒有善意了還非常惡意的加碼1月的諾魯斷交嘛然後跟我們搶邦交國嘛那以上這些林林總總的事情那國台辦還片面的說我方的做法不得人心"},{"start":346.213,"end":348.78,"text":"但從頭到尾沒有溝通誠意的是不是就是中國?"},{"start":351.135,"end":376.201,"text":"我想我先問啦以上這些他們在進行這個測試的時候請問中國有來跟台灣溝通過嗎?我們如果會有接到任何消息嗎?當然不可能啦沒有嗎?完全沒有嗎?這個對等的溝通在哪裡嗎?那我想問一下這一次我們在這個在釋出說我們很願意開放團課的這個前提用對等的前提其實我們釋出非常大的善意是嗎?對,沒有錯那請問中方給了什麼回應?"},{"start":379.002,"end":390.73,"text":"基本上是以讀不回還是未讀未回根本就不理我們對嗎初期他們是認為這個現階段不談這個議題但是也沒有所謂明確的否決但是隨著台灣選舉的這個基調上面他們的這個說法上就越來越朝向負面好我就問一個很明確的如果當中方給了什麼樣的回應我們就可以對等的來開放那可以開放什麼可不可以請"},{"start":406.638,"end":433.435,"text":"主委這邊給一下一個明確的指令就是說當中方答應說他們開放團客跟自由行來台灣我們就可以對等的開放是這樣對嗎對基本上我們還是會按照過去的經驗上從彼此的人數上為什麼我們一開始所謂的設定這個每日2000人的這樣的一個計算基準倒不是說限定每日一定2000人而是一段時間的總數那是在算總數"},{"start":435.856,"end":452.611,"text":"因為2019年他就是調控到他可以調控到從本來團客幾百萬人次調控到只剩下85萬人次所以中國在對台灣的觀光旅遊也不斷的隨著台灣政情的發展變化他有控制他的人數"},{"start":454.261,"end":473.757,"text":"好那我也希望說我們就維持這個原則那繼續的釋出善意當然我不希望說我們的善意是真心換絕情好心被雷清啦這個一定要秉持住這個基本的原則那最後我還是要問一下說因為大家還是說這次有許多的旅遊業者可能因為我們釋出的資訊不夠明確"},{"start":474.818,"end":474.918,"text":"副署長"},{"start":493.251,"end":496.312,"text":"好,我先把明確的問題因為你們確實還是在這個釋出的訊息上或許有一點落差讓旅遊業者覺得說已經可以去組團了所以確實我們還是在3到5月有一個緩衝讓他們盡量在這段時間本來已經組好的還是可以赴陸旅遊,對嗎?赴中旅遊"},{"start":514.75,"end":543.719,"text":"是的那我還是希望說已經發覺有些旅行社開始攬客嘛所以就基本上3月1號到5月31號這三個月降低他們已經組團這個損失了那可不可以請市長明確的說明說我們在這段時間會如何協助業者跟稍微受到影響的這些旅客的權益我們祭出什麼樣的措施來協助他們因為讓國人安心還是最重要的"},{"start":544.175,"end":547.017,"text":"在釋出訊息的時候,一定也要跟業者有一個明確的溝通,讓他們知道我們的政策是什麼,並且確保所有旅客的權益。"},{"start":567.631,"end":585.503,"text":"那最後還是要小小的提醒,畢竟現在附中的風險漸漸提升,然後確實也有這個所謂的反間諜法,我還是希望我們在所有的權益跟風險上都要明確的讓業者以及所有的旅客知道,好嗎?是,謝謝委員提醒,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝黃捷委員的質詢,謝謝主委,謝謝次長,"}]}},{"id":"149379","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149379","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f916d0de33f944259b97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a63b12e6e223e8e7575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:23:33 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10:35:08","影片長度":"00:11:35","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":695,"end_time":"2024-03-06T10:35:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:23:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":572,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時23分）謝謝我們的牛委員，我們請一下陸委會主委。"],["主席：好，邱太三主委，有請。"],["邱主任委員太三：高金委員。"],["高金委員素梅：主委，你好，辛苦了！最近真的非常多的事情，造成您的工作業務量非常的大。"],["邱主任委員太三：謝謝體恤。"],["高金委員素梅：本來之前就沒有怎麼樣的溝通管道，現在更是惡意螺旋一直往上不斷升高。我們昨天看到李強在人大的報告只提「統一」，但去年他曾經講過「和平統一」，「和平」這2個字被消失了，這是不是代表他們對臺灣的態度更強硬？因為今天還有其他的報告，我希望您用1分鐘來簡單回答我。"],["邱主任委員太三：我們如果回顧比較長的歷史，民進黨執政的時候，他們大概都以反獨為優先，如果是國民黨執政的時候，他們就希望以統一為優先，在這兩個裡面做主軸上的區分。所以我剛剛也提到，我們也來理解一下他們是不是跟過去一樣或者是有特別的用意。這個就是我剛剛講的，現在沒有辦法去下論斷。"],["高金委員素梅：所以你們根本沒有跟著整個時勢趕快採取因應措施！"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上都有在進行，但只是……"],["高金委員素梅：對不起，主委，您剛剛講到的都是意識形態的部分，今天您是全民的陸委會主委，我是全民選出來的立法委員，我們不應該站在哪一個執政黨的面前來談論國家安全問題還有全臺灣2,300萬人民的安全問題，所以本席建議，現在兩岸的惡意螺旋持續升高、非常的嚴重，其實這不是好事情。所謂政府就是全民的政府，不是哪一個政黨的政府，不是嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：對，我們都同意。"],["高金委員素梅：所以對於政府，你們應該是有責任要來降低這樣的危機，這才是全民的利益嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：我們都在努力當中。"],["高金委員素梅：同意？好，謝謝您的回答。","現在我就針對今天的專案報告來對您提出質詢：我們好不容易等到新冠疫情結束之後，去年11月交通部原本規劃今年春節就要恢復旅行社組團赴陸旅遊的具體內容，按照不管是陸委會的報告也好、交通部的報告也好、觀光署的報告也好，你們總共有3個重點，第一個重點就是因為逆差的問題，對吧？"],["邱主任委員太三：嗯。"],["高金委員素梅：第二個就是改變了M503航路運行方式，因為你們考量整體情勢，不利於國家的利益。然後還有第三個是用反間諜法，因為反間諜法會造成國人到大陸去，人身安全的風險增加，而我們沒有有效的機制可以處理。基於這樣的因素，你們就暫停了組團赴陸的部分。","我就覺得有一點納悶，因此想要問一下你們，所謂反間諜法的原因不是現在就有嘛，對不對？6月前到大陸去的，不管是組團或自由行的這些人，難道就沒有所謂的人身安全風險嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：所以委員，我們陸委會多次在例行記者會裡面一再昭告國人，大陸整個法律制定所涉及的不是只有這些，如果是更早期，包括他們所謂的數據安全法，你在那邊如果上網看他們相關單位的數據，也可能會涉及相關的法制……"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，對不起，我必須要……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們陸委會大概在兩個禮拜一次的例行記者會中，一定會提醒國人大陸整體的情勢。第二個，我們大概也會簡單地敘述哪些國人……"],["高金委員素梅：對不起，你上面寫說沒有有效機制可以處理啊！那你是不是要趕快從這個有效的機制著手，而不是要禁止國人出去啊！不是嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：委員真的講得很好。"],["高金委員素梅：對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：所以我們希望他們跟我們簽的協議……"],["高金委員素梅：你們有效的機制是什麼？"],["邱主任委員太三：我們本來就有機制在，就像我剛剛講的……"],["高金委員素梅：現在有效的機制是什麼？"],["邱主任委員太三：就是我們按照過去雙方協議的機制……"],["高金委員素梅：就是兩岸要互相和善嘛！對不對？兩岸要彼此和善嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：對！但是他們……"],["高金委員素梅：所以和善更重要嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：他們不按照法治國家的原則來處理啊！"],["高金委員素梅：所以這次阻止陸團不是因為所謂的反間諜法嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：不、不、不，那是其中一個因素。"],["高金委員素梅：所以我不接受這個部分。這個很早就有了，不是因為這一次6月的原因……"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，剛剛徐委員有講……"],["高金委員素梅：所以外界質疑你們這次為什麼會片面宣布，你們的法律基礎到底是什麼，好了，我們今天終於看到了，我們的觀光署是說找到法律依據了，這個法律依據是發展觀光條例第五十三條第一項，以及旅行業管理規則第四十九條第十九款，因為這樣子的法律因素，所以對旅行業者你們就必須負管理監督之責，然後你們必須要有損害國家利益這樣子的概念，所以觀光署就事前通知我們的旅行業者說：你要保護國家利益，所以你就必須暫停。","請主委休息一下，我們請一下交通部。","請問一下交通部，不管是次長回答也好、副署長回答也好，我們的旅行業者組團到大陸，到底破壞了國家利益的哪一個方面，你們要用這樣子的條例來告訴我們的旅行業者？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，危害國家利益是綜合考慮，包含剛剛報告的……"],["高金委員素梅：什麼樣的綜合考慮？我今天只看到你說逆差的問題啊！"],["林次長國顯：逆差是一項……"],["高金委員素梅：我現在就告訴你，如果你的回答還是逆差問題的話，我找到日本觀光局公布的數據：日本第2季臺灣觀光客的人均消費是17.68萬日圓，以3月3日的匯率來計算，相當於新臺幣3萬7,192元，去年臺灣人去日本旅遊大概多少錢你知道嗎？一千多億耶！然後我們去大陸只有800億。按照你們發展觀光條例第五十三條規定的「損害國家利益」、你剛剛所謂的逆差，交通部是不是應該要禁止臺灣旅行社組團到日本去呢？是不是也應該這樣？"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，這……"],["高金委員素梅：如果你們的概念是如此的話。"],["林次長國顯：本質上是日本政府並沒有禁止他們的國人來臺旅遊，是因為……"],["高金委員素梅：但是如果你用逆差這樣的概念來說，這個逆差更大啊！"],["林次長國顯：如果政府的態度是開放的，這就看……"],["高金委員素梅：好啦，所以你不能講逆差嘛！"],["林次長國顯：逆差是一部分。"],["高金委員素梅：所以你就不應該把逆差列為國家利益嘛！對不對？"],["林次長國顯：整體產業的利益。"],["高金委員素梅：如果你是用國家利益的話，這樣子的逆差日本更多啊！如果是國家利益，你們應該有效提升這個部分，而不是用國家利益、用你們的觀光團體來阻止我們陸團去嘛！所以我也不接受逆差的說法。"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：因此你也不用再回答我了！","陸委會和交通部禁止臺灣旅遊業者組團去大陸觀光，我要問的事情請主委也上台一下，這個決策過程到底是什麼？有沒有會議紀錄？因為你們今天送來的3份報告好像都是講這3個，我要請問你，這個決策過程有沒有會議紀錄？是陸委會自己決定的，還是行政院跨部會決定的？"],["邱主任委員太三：在去年的8月間……"],["高金委員素梅：是行政院跨部會嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：應該是跨部會的，就是剛剛也提到了，因為……"],["高金委員素梅：那跨部會的成員有哪些？"],["邱主任委員太三：剛剛他有提到、報告裡面有提到，有我們陸委會、交通部跟經濟部，因為我們還涉及商務……"],["高金委員素梅：國安有沒有進來？"],["邱主任委員太三：當然，其他相關單位……"],["高金委員素梅：最後拍板決定要暫停組團去大陸，到底是國安會的決策、蔡英文總統的決策，還是520要就任的賴清德總統的決策？"],["邱主任委員太三：去年8月的時候，他應該在忙著選舉，沒有管這件事情。"],["高金委員素梅：所以你的意思是說，去年8月的時候賴清德總統不管這件事情，但是您剛剛在這邊宣布、就你的感覺好像是說來這邊觀光會影響我們的選舉，好像選舉也在你們的考慮之中耶！"],["邱主任委員太三：不是、不是，剛剛牛委員提到的是11月的那件事情，那個時候國台辦……"],["高金委員素梅：喔，OK，所以讓你有時間澄清一下。"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["高金委員素梅：所以您再講一下，行政院的跨部會有哪些？"],["邱主任委員太三：我們討論完了就說，這3個部會……"],["高金委員素梅：有哪些？有陸委會……"],["邱主任委員太三：陸委會、交通部跟經濟部，還有一些相關的比如……"],["高金委員素梅：陸委會、交通部跟經濟部，相關是誰啊？再講一下。"],["邱主任委員太三：國安單位，比如說移民署也好或者是國安局也好。"],["高金委員素梅：因為今天的會議，我請你們報告的名稱就是決策的內容，你們今天也沒有告訴我，好不好？因為我的時間有限，今天專題報告是決策過程，但是我在你們三個單位裡面沒有看到決策過程，然後做了這個決策之後到底有沒有做過全面的損害評估，有沒有？今天的報告也沒有看到。"],["邱主任委員太三：對啦！基本上把結論都已經告訴各位了。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有啊！影響評估、損害評估。"],["邱主任委員太三：第一個就是不對等……"],["高金委員素梅：你只有講逆差。"],["邱主任委員太三：第二個實質的利益影響多少，第三個其他的部分包括剛剛提到的，對不對？"],["高金委員素梅：這個損害評估不僅僅是這三個大項，還有國內的損害評估啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：對、對、對！"],["高金委員素梅：你們沒有啊，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：剛剛不是提出那個數據嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：你們在報告裡面沒有提出，如果今天沒有委員在這邊質詢，是不是就不提出了？"],["邱主任委員太三：8月是要開放，所以原則上、基本上是朝正向的方向去理解，但是一直發展到2月6號……"],["高金委員素梅：好，主委，我時間到了，我今天就我在這邊質詢的立場下一個最後的結論，我的結論就是說你們這樣粗糙的政策，我認為就像我昨天的總質詢一樣，不管我們的政府做了哪一些錯誤的政策，你們都不願意收回，我覺得就是故意的，這個故意是讓我們旅行業者當作兩岸對抗的炮灰，我覺得這樣子不妥啦！好不好？謝謝。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我想我們也有很多的委員可以跟對岸反映……"],["高金委員素梅：我認為不妥。"],["邱主任委員太三：他們如果希望大家能夠更加和諧的交流，我覺得……"],["高金委員素梅：主委，這也是你的工作，不要忘記。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，我們也努力了。"],["高金委員素梅：我們大家儘量努力，好不好？"],["邱主任委員太三：共同努力。"],["高金委員素梅：尤其是您，您更重要啊！好嗎？謝謝你今天的質詢，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝高金委員，請相關的單位針對本案的決策過程提供相關的書面資料以及衝擊影響評估，並提供給本會委員以及高金委員做參考，以上。"],["主席（高金委員素梅）：好，我們繼續請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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對不對那6月前到大陸去的不管是組團不管是自由行的這些人難道就沒有所謂的人身安全風險嗎"},{"start":209.967,"end":237.115,"text":"所以委員我們的陸委會多次在我們的例行記者會裡面一再的糟糕國人大陸他整個法律的制定所涉及到的不是只有這些啦如果更早期包括他的所謂的數據安全法你在那邊如果上網上他們的這個相關的單位的數據也可能會涉及到相關的法制沒有對不起所以我必須要大概在兩個禮拜一次的例行記者會一定會提醒國人"},{"start":238.415,"end":259.7,"text":"大陸整體的情勢第二個我們大概也會簡單的敘述那你說沒有有效的機制對不起你上面寫說沒有有效機制可以處理啊那你是不是要從這個有效的機制趕快來而不是要禁止我們國人出去啊不是嗎委員真的講得很好所以我們希望他跟往前的協議那你變成有效的機制是什麼我們本來就有機制在就像我剛剛講的那有效 那麼現在有效的機制是什麼"},{"start":265.962,"end":269.246,"text":"所以不是這次阻止鹿團不是因為所謂的反借點法嗎所以我不"},{"start":285.562,"end":304.931,"text":"這很早就有了,很早就有了,不是因為這一次6月這個人馬,所以外界一直因為為什麼你們這次會片面的宣布你的法律基礎到底是什麼,好了我們今天終於看到了,我們的觀光署是說找到法律依據了"},{"start":305.831,"end":306.312,"text":"發言委員：高金素梅"},{"start":325.612,"end":327.295,"text":"請主委您休息一下我們請一下交通部"},{"start":344.372,"end":367.227,"text":"請暫停我的時間請問一下交通部不管是次長回答也好、副署長回答也好我們的旅行業者組團到大陸到底他破壞了我們國家利益的哪一個方面你要用這樣子的條例來告訴我們的旅行業者"},{"start":368.532,"end":385.241,"text":"維哈國家利益是綜合考慮什麼樣的綜合考慮我今天只看到你說逆差的問題啊我現在就告訴你如果你的回答還是逆差的問題我找到日本觀光局公布的數據我們看一下按照這個數據日本這個僅僅第二季的人均消費"},{"start":388.022,"end":393.584,"text":"17.68萬日元也就是相當於3月3號匯率新台幣37192塊來計算的話去年台灣人去日本旅遊的人數大概多少錢你知道嗎一千多億耶"},{"start":403.587,"end":404.208,"text":"日本政府並沒有禁止他的國人來台旅遊"},{"start":428.727,"end":443.547,"text":"但是如果你用逆差的這樣的概念來說這樣逆差的話更大啊如果政府的態度是開放的那這個就看好了所以你不能講逆差嘛所以你就不應該把逆差列為國家安全嘛"},{"start":444.328,"end":466.8,"text":"國家利益國家利益嘛 對不對如果你是用國家利益的話 這樣的逆差的話基本是更多啊所以你們應該如果是國家利益那你們應該有效要來提升這個部分而不是用國家利益用你們的觀光條例來阻止我們陸團去嘛所以我也不接受逆差的問題因此你也不用再回答我了齁"},{"start":467.82,"end":480.868,"text":"陸委會和交通部禁止臺灣旅遊業者組團去大陸觀光．我要問的是．請主委也上台一下．這個決策過程到底是什麼．有沒有會議記錄．因為你們今天來的這個三個報告的決策會議過程．好像都是講這三個．我要請問你這個決策過程有沒有會議記錄．"},{"start":490.143,"end":508.348,"text":"是你陸委會自己決定的還是行政院跨部會決定的在去年的8月間是行政院跨部會嗎跨部會就是剛剛有提到了那跨部會的成員有哪些剛剛他有提到報告裡面有提到有我們陸委會交通部跟經濟部因為"},{"start":509.608,"end":510.429,"text":"昨年8月的時候他應該在忙著選舉沒有管這些事情"},{"start":535.487,"end":541.951,"text":"所以去年8月的時候你的意思說在清德總統不管這件事情但是您剛剛在這邊說不就你的覺得好像說來這邊觀光然後影響我們的選舉這好像選舉也是在你們的考慮之中嗎?所以您再講一下這個行政院的跨部會有哪些?有哪些?有哪些?有陸委會?"},{"start":562.982,"end":576.453,"text":"陸委會、交通部、跟經濟部那還有幾些相關的﹐相關是誰啊﹐國安單位嘛﹐比如說移民署也好啦﹐或者是這個﹐因為你今天的會議我今天請你們報告的這個名稱就是決策的內容你們今天也沒有告訴我好不好因為我的時間有限"},{"start":584.059,"end":601.43,"text":"今天專題報告是決策過程但是我們在你們三個單位裡面沒有看到決策過程然後做了這個決策之後到底有沒有做過全面的損害評估有沒有今天的報告也沒有看到"},{"start":602.845,"end":618.473,"text":"對啦,那基本上把結論都已經告訴各位了嘛沒有啊,影響評估、損害評估第一個不對等嘛,第二個呢,實際的利益影響多少嘛第三個其他的部分嘛,包括剛剛提到的嘛,對不對這個損害評估不僅僅是這個三個大項,還有國內的損害評估啊你們沒有啊,對不對剛剛不是剛剛提出的那個數據嗎"},{"start":626.497,"end":627.017,"text":"主委時間到了齁"},{"start":642.543,"end":643.184,"text":"高金素梅議員"},{"start":664.503,"end":690.823,"text":"是讓我們旅行業者當作兩岸的對抗的砲灰我覺得這樣子不妥啦好不好我想我們也有很多的委員可以我認為不妥這個希望大家能夠更加和諧的交流我覺得這個是你的工作不要忘記我們也努力了好不好我們盡量大家努力好不好尤其是您喔您更重要啊好嗎"},{"start":691.643,"end":692.465,"text":"好 謝謝您今天的質詢"}]}},{"id":"149378","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149378","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172feffa91e7aee078fbb97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a669b51f63c6f260655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:13:34 - 10:23:28","影片長度":"00:09:54","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":594,"end_time":"2024-03-06T10:23:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:13:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":503,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時13分），謝謝主席，我們有請陸委會主委跟次長。"],["主席：陸委會邱太三主委以及交通部次長，有請。"],["邱主任委員太三：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：主委早、次長早。"],["邱主任委員太三：早。"],["黃委員建賓：我想在質詢之前，本席身為臺東的立委，我必須要跟陸委會及跟交通部反映一件事情，就是不要從臺北看天下，不要從京城看地方，我們希望能夠把天下的人、事當作自己的事來看。團客重不重要？當然相當地重要，它的產值相當重要，本席所在的臺東縣長期仰賴觀光產業來發展，顯得更重要，那我們更在乎的是陸客，還有其他各國的觀光客能夠來臺東。本席知道，講到陸客可能又要被側翼抹紅，又說我們跟中共同路，不過為了臺東的未來，本席認為該講的就要講。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我不會這樣。"],["黃委員建賓：該做的就要做。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我不會這樣。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，讓我繼續。依照我們的統計，2019年來臺灣的觀光客人次大概是1,186萬人，到去年也達到600萬的目標，不過疫情之後其實也僅僅恢復了五成。反觀亞洲其他鄰近國家的觀光數據，韓國去年在上半年度已經恢復了六成，日本也已經恢復八成，我們臺灣的成績真的算是後段班。從去年9月底來臺灣的旅客數也可以看得到，中國大陸受到政策影響，目前只有14萬人次來臺灣，一口氣下滑到排名第十；原本排名在第二，來臺灣旅客最多的日本也沒有因為這樣而順勢攀升，僅僅不到60萬來臺，大幅下滑。原本我們寄望兩岸春暖花開的大陸行團客，現在忽然間喊卡，我想這個相當突兀。當初賴清德副總統在選舉時提出我們的門永遠是開的，我想請問主委跟次長，這兩位是哪一位那麼大膽把門關起來？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，我們的門一直都開著，是他不讓他們的人來。"],["黃委員建賓：是。"],["邱主任委員太三：對啊！"],["黃委員建賓：瞭解，謝謝主委。"],["邱主任委員太三：他不讓他們的人來，不是我們不……"],["黃委員建賓：理解，好。"],["邱主任委員太三：我們讓我們的國人都可以去自由行。現在就是團客的部分，我們也認為說他開，我們同樣、同時開嘛，這是最好的一個結果。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，謝謝。就是門關起來之後會影響到的問題，我們都可以預見得到。"],["邱主任委員太三：是他們關門，不是我們。"],["黃委員建賓：我想要請問主委跟次長，陸客不來，我們的損失，交通部這邊講到739億，這個是數字上的損失嘛！數字上這個是統計損失，還有很多無形的商機都沒有了，我想這是變相地打臉未來總統賴清德的政見。我要在這邊幫未來的賴清德總統考核一下，請教兩位，當初賴清德副總統在競選的時候提出的觀光立國有六大面向，你知道是哪六大面向嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：這個我是不是請副署長……"],["黃委員建賓：副署長，六大面向。"],["周副署長廷彰：報告委員，這我還要去查一下。"],["黃委員建賓：所以看起來這個六大面向好像執行上有點困難，沒關係，不過副署長，如果查了之後，你確定你們都做得到嗎？"],["周副署長廷彰：報告委員，基本上賴副總統的這六大面向，這個我們應該都是在進行當中，尤其第六項我們是很歡迎。"],["黃委員建賓：跟次長報告，六大面向，第一個，包括以觀光立國，儘快回到1,000萬人次的國際觀光客為目標；達到部部有觀光；然後結合地方政府發展觀光主流化，打造國際觀光品牌，讓地方的觀光資源能夠充分展現，進行區域性合作，推出區域性旅遊產品。"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，這些方向都非常有遠見，也是相當……"],["黃委員建賓：這個是副總統，未來的總統提出的，對不對？"],["林次長國顯：這是各部會，甚至我們觀光署跟相關部會努力的目標，譬如第二點，現在也不是只有我們觀光署自己在做，行政院也有一個跨部會會議，把文化部、農業部、內政部國家公園署，以及相關部會跟觀光有關的都結合在一起，所以這些工作剛好是最近我們主要的重點。"],["黃委員建賓：我想賴清德副總統所提出的，我們的門永遠是開的，我們歡迎陸客來臺灣旅遊，而且是絕對安全、受尊重，但目前看起來就是做不到，我們不要再去講……"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，我們是歡迎他們來臺，現在是他們沒有開放，所以這一點，我們的門是開的。"],["黃委員建賓：次長，我相信真正的善意是要有一方先丟出來，這個應該有很多的技巧可以來帶過，我想民進黨政府其實在這一塊非常地翹楚，但是我們每一次遇到兩岸的問題就有變化。","我想要請教陸委會主委，請問貴會兩岸的熱線電話，你那支電話還可以用嗎？兩岸的熱線電話可不可以用？"],["邱主任委員太三：我桌子上確實有一支電話。"],["黃委員建賓：還是本席要去交通委員會請中華電信查一下那個電話線路還行不行？有壞掉嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：應該還可以用，還可以用，只是要不要使用而已。"],["黃委員建賓：這是開玩笑，所以不好意思。"],["邱主任委員太三：不會。"],["黃委員建賓：本席只是要提醒，不要等到 ECFA或其他兩岸重大來往的都斷掉之後，再來檢討或怪罪誰，我想這個都沒有用，誰對誰錯，社會大眾都有公斷。很抱歉，本席要的不只是陸客而已，因為臺東的地理條件非常特殊，也受到很多發展上的限制，我們需要更多觀光客進來。","我想問次長，你有聽過I believe I can fly嗎？這個臺東的笑話，是志航基地的 IDF啊！它那是I don't fly，我們是I can fly。次長，我們要的是到臺東機場來的飛機能夠更多。"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，臺東機場，我們民航局的部分一直有在整建，現在在整建滑行道，它整建完成以後320的飛機可以落，大概180到210人，未來國際包機是可以直接飛臺東。"],["黃委員建賓：好，次長，你知道臺東到臺北的火車要花多少時間嗎？"],["林次長國顯：快的話3個半小時到4個小時，慢的話要5、6個小時。"],["黃委員建賓：本席每次來開會都要坐很久。"],["林次長國顯：所以我們航空的班次也要多，一天大概還要有6班。"],["黃委員建賓：那次長知道臺北到東京的時間是多少嗎？"],["林次長國顯：可能要4個小時。"],["黃委員建賓：報告次長，你到東京的時候，本席可能還在火車上，而且因為可能還買不到火車便當而肚子餓。"],["林次長國顯：委員，坐飛機比較……"],["黃委員建賓：火車便當的問題，我們會後再討論。"],["林次長國顯：其實，黃委員也知道……"],["黃委員建賓：你看我們這麼多委員都有感受，時間成本真的是影響旅遊的最主要因素。"],["林次長國顯：委員，我跟您報告，我們新型的EMU3000已經進來有50列了，六百多輛，所以基本上這樣的車型……"],["黃委員建賓：我知道，車程還是要3個半小時嘛？"],["林次長國顯：是，大概3個半小時。"],["黃委員建賓：那買不到便當是很痛苦的事情，次長知道，對不對？"],["林次長國顯：現在就是花東雙軌的部分也同步在進行，所以有些地方必須要避讓，有些班次我們比較快，直接從宜蘭一直到臺東。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝次長。交通的時間成本會讓人決定要不要去旅遊。臺東不是臺灣的後花園，我們是南島文化的發源地，它是全世界非常重要的一個文化資產，我們也可以說臺東是外國人要認識臺灣的第一站。過去花蓮曾經能夠直飛到香港，去年4月份花蓮還有直飛到越南的這樣一個紀錄的班機。借問臺東有什麼？是不是可以讓臺東機場也可以飛到更多的地方，讓更多的外國遊客能夠認識臺灣？"],["林次長國顯：是，跟委員報告，花蓮是因為在前一陣子，香港這個快運，他們全力發展花蓮，其實疫情前他們也想到臺東。臺東當初是因為跑道、滑行道的問題，所以我們民航局開始整建，整建完成320就可以落，它們就可以飛。第二個是觀光旅遊，我們觀光署也有相關的補助，就是只要飛桃園地區的包機或者是散客，都有相關的補助。"],["黃委員建賓：所以次長支持臺東辦理國際包機嗎？"],["林次長國顯：當然，沒問題。"],["黃委員建賓：所以次長要支持我們臺東機場所有的升級。"],["林次長國顯：是，目前正在興建。"],["黃委員建賓：要給我們更多的資源喔！"],["林次長國顯：沒問題、沒問題。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝次長。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主席，本席的質詢到這邊。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃建賓委員。","接下來有請高金素梅委員提出質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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believe I can fly嗎?不是臺東的笑話是臺東機場的IDF你是I don't fly你是I can fly是次長我們要的是臺東機場來的飛機能夠更多"},{"start":409.206,"end":419.814,"text":"臺東機場我們民航局的部門一直有在整建,現在在整建滑行道,那它整建完成以後,320的飛機可以落,大概180到210人,國際包機子可以直接飛臺東市長你知道臺東到臺北的火車要花多少時間嗎?"},{"start":428.862,"end":453.439,"text":"呃,快的話3個半小時到4個小時,慢的話要5、6個小時對,因為本席每次來開會都要坐很久所以我們航空的班次比較多,一定都還要6班那市長,台北到東京的時間多少嗎?可能要4個小時報告市長,你到東京的時候本席可能還在火車上而且因為可能還買不到火車便當,肚子餓火車便當的問題,我們會要再討論"},{"start":468.515,"end":488.227,"text":"時間成本真的是會影響到旅遊最主要的因素我跟您報告,我們新型的EMU3000已經進來有50列了,600多列所以基本上這一系列的車型還是要3個半小時嘛是,大概3個半小時那不要變成是很痛苦的事情,市長知道嘛對不對"},{"start":489.447,"end":510.238,"text":"現在就是花東雙軌的部分也同步在進行所以有些地方必須必須要避讓有些班次我們比較快直接從宜蘭一直到台東這樣交通的時間成本會讓人決定要不要去旅遊我想台東不是台灣的後花園我們是南島文化的發源地"},{"start":511.997,"end":529.365,"text":"臺東是外國人要認識臺東的第一站那過去花蓮曾經能夠直飛到香港那去年四月份花蓮還有直飛到越南的這樣的一個紀錄的班機希望臺東可以讓臺東機場也可以飛到更多的地方讓更多的外國遊客能夠認識臺灣"},{"start":538.573,"end":561.976,"text":"是跟委員報告花蓮是因為在前一陣子香港這個快運他們大概全力發展花蓮那其實疫情前他們也想到臺東那臺東當初是因為跑道、滑行道的問題所以我們一樣去開始整建整建完成320就可以落他們就可以飛那第二個是我們觀光旅遊我們觀光署也有"},{"start":562.617,"end":563.117,"text":"接下來有請高津素梅委員提出質詢"}]}},{"id":"149377","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149377","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fe55a23d80efe835eb97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a65ab69b334a180b4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:03:41 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是傷害的"},{"start":243.013,"end":264.737,"text":"對啦,除了對我們的本土業者,這一些我們在本土所有觀光餐飲的這一些接待、入客團體這些是一個傷害之外這也是我們跟對岸要談判的一個籌碼啊,對不對?我們要保護我們的業者,這是一個很合情合理,全世界都同一個標準嘛"},{"start":265.037,"end":289.89,"text":"我們其實是希望兩岸對等開放啦所以從去年8月24號開始就一直希望是釋出這樣的善意以後陸方也能夠對等然後回應要不要開放陸團客來台這個我們都知道嘛這個我們希望對等談話我剛一開始就講了嘛我們也沒有說不開放嘛現在是中國不開放所以卡在這裡嘛重點是不是"},{"start":290.47,"end":300.685,"text":"是那我們為什麼卡在這裡我們要保護我們本土的業者啊要不要對對不對這是考慮的因素重要的因素這應該是很重要的因素之一嘛這要跟大家講嘛來這個"},{"start":305.466,"end":331.379,"text":"陸專門做這個陸團旅遊的啊齁在我們臺灣的齁出團的啊齁澳邦的這個業者在臺灣佔比例有多高?所以剛剛報告404家大概十分之一左右十分之一嘛佔旅行業者十分之一而且這十分之一也應該不是他全部都是做陸自辦事吧他還有別的業務對嘛對不對他也可以做國立他也可以做別的甚至他也有可能也有臺灣也有投資餐廳啊"},{"start":335.979,"end":344.937,"text":"所以我們在考量應該是全面性的啦對不對是好謝謝次長那我再請問一下那個我們邱主委"},{"start":347.372,"end":366.515,"text":"主委,我不知道你有沒有看到今天的新聞美國的驅逐艦分N號特別經過台灣海峽而且現在剛好是中國的兩會期間然後金門的事件還有中飛在南海的衝突"},{"start":368.151,"end":391.749,"text":"他特意提早以前大概都是月底我不知道這主委應該比我清楚特意提早來我個人認為這個是美國對中國釋出一個非常明顯的訊號就是台灣海峽是國際海域是屬於自由航行的這中間也會牽扯到他所謂的M503的這個航線這個這個種種的我認為美國是故意挑這個時間來的"},{"start":397.814,"end":421.13,"text":"向他的印太夥伴來說這個保證印太的積極的自由跟航行的權利我覺得主委是不是有這個意思存在我想我們看到美國不管是太平洋司令也好或者說美國的軍方也好大概都多次的表達他們都按照國際的法的規範在維護國際的這樣的一個航道"},{"start":425.493,"end":447.265,"text":"這我想已經宣布了好幾次了那第二個就是說中國他因為軍事的擴張跟武力的使用事實上已經造成周邊的國家都有高度的警覺了所以也因此大家就是對於整個海域的安全大家就集體的來做這樣的一個維護的動作了那我想這個應該是可以理解的"},{"start":448.127,"end":466.981,"text":"應該可以理解啦所以你的看法跟我是一樣啦只是你不方便在這邊說的很直接啦那另外啦在這一次在他們兩會期間啦中國刻意把和平統一和平兩個字拿掉這個我不知道主委有沒有注意到你就代表的意思是什麼"},{"start":467.641,"end":495.089,"text":"確實啦,當然我們大概每一次的這個中國的兩會啦或者是他們的這個黨的這個大會的報告呢我們大概都會去做一些相關的研析啦不過因為,坦白講,單純這樣子我們沒有辦法馬上具下論斷我們當然都會再收集更多的資訊特別是相關單位的這個資訊來做他們這樣的一個用意到底有沒有什麼樣的一個用意啦"},{"start":495.729,"end":520.896,"text":"不過因為不能只單看一個字眼啦因為主要的原因我們是會總體來看他報告裡面還提到有沒有其他的部分會涉及到這個東西比如說他內部社會的問題也好他經濟的問題也好他們到底怎麼樣處理那這個都是有一定程度的連動所以單純看四個字恐怕不是我們只在注意這個這個字詞的用意而是說要整體來看觀察那我們也會跟相關單位來做這樣研判"},{"start":522.896,"end":545.425,"text":"那我們如果有什麼這個外界有什麼我們大概在例行記者會也都會接受大家的詢問那做比較完整的表達其實只是要提醒就是說很多的滋味小節那如果這樣其實主委都有注意到了這個這樣國人就會比較放心我們都有注意到所以我最後還是要說我們今天這個專題報告我還是覺得"},{"start":550.663,"end":551.044,"text":"謝謝委員的指教和介紹"},{"start":578.534,"end":579.402,"text":"好,謝謝張宏陸委員"}]}},{"id":"149376","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149376","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172feb23f6c968eb08f9b97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a6c243b8408b1a723d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:52:01 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10:03:27","影片長度":"00:11:26","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":686,"end_time":"2024-03-06T10:03:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T09:52:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":298,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時52分）謝謝主席。陸委會主委跟交通部次長，有請。"],["主席：有請主委，有請次長，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員太三：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委早安。先請教你一個問題，請問主委是否同意兩岸的交流應該要維持對等、互利、尊重，兩岸在談判跟協商的過程中要避免我方讓利，更不能熱臉貼冷屁股，這樣的敘述，你同意嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上平等互惠應該是一個最基本的原則，大家都朝這個目標在追求。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！因為我剛剛聽你回答蘇巧慧委員質詢的時候你也講對等是很重要的，這一點本席完全同意，合先敘明。第二個問題我想請教一下交通部的次長，去年7月1號開始研議恢復兩岸的觀光旅遊，那8月24號是做了對外的公布，依對等的原則，對不對？也有講對等原則處理兩岸團體旅遊事務，在你的報告裡也寫有1個月的準備期嘛！這個有沒有錯？我跟你先做一下確認。"],["林次長國顯：是的，有、有，沒有問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，再換回主委，謝謝。","主委，我們今天要談這件事情是這樣，因為這個案子一度本來覺得蠻順利的，也可以給旅行業多一點空間，但後來突然峰迴路轉，決策中間的反覆其實造成旅行業很大的傷害，所以我覺得我們今天在內政委員會當然要提出質詢去瞭解過程，那更重要的是檢討本案的一些疏失，有沒有對等，我想這是非常重要的一個題目喔！我先請問一下，過去陸委會跟對岸溝通的管道有哪些？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上是這樣，大概兩岸過去這三十幾年來，不只是有很多個案，也簽了大概26項的協議。"],["牛委員煦庭：協議，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：這個協議涵蓋了觀光旅遊等等什麼都有，這裡面的協議就建立了一個所謂相互溝通的機制，這機制大概分三個面向：第一個，平時資訊上的提供；第二個，發生個案上的處理；第三個，政策性的探討，譬如說到底要不要再多開放哪些東西。"],["牛委員煦庭：OK。這個其實跟你剛剛回答的一樣，陸委會網站其實有講，溝通不外乎三個管道，一個政府單位，一個你剛剛講的兩岸協議，然後另外一個是民間人士，對不對？這樣講應該沒有錯，對不對？這陸委會講的。"],["邱主任委員太三：另外，因為我們就觀光的部分，在北京有所謂的台旅會，臺灣旅行的這個……"],["牛委員煦庭：這應該也算是……"],["邱主任委員太三：大陸在我們這邊有海旅會，在經濟的部分也有另一個單位……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，沒關係，我要問的……"],["邱主任委員太三：雙方都有各派……"],["牛委員煦庭：有管道嘛！對不對？所以8月24號之前，就在你們宣布要開始春暖花開之前，請問有沒有做具體的溝通？有沒有具體的成果？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上都有透過所謂雙方的窗口做了表達。"],["牛委員煦庭：什麼樣的窗口？是你從陸委會溝通嗎？還是從其他單位溝通？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，不是，就是我剛剛提到的，所有協議都有它所謂的窗口。"],["牛委員煦庭：是不是從陸委會的管道啦？"],["邱主任委員太三：我們當然會……當然大家都知道，當政策討論完了之後，就會有所謂業務執行單位啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：不是，我沒有問你業務執行單位，我問說你在溝通這一題的時候，就是兩岸觀光的時候。"],["邱主任委員太三：對啊！就是業務執行單位會去做這樣的表達。"],["牛委員煦庭：它是哪一個單位？哪一條管道？透露一下吧！"],["邱主任委員太三：我剛剛不是有提到嗎？雙方都有幾個管道，包括台旅會，包括交通部……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以是透過台旅會這個管道，還是透過海基會呢？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，不只是啦……"],["牛委員煦庭：還是透過哪一個管道？"],["邱主任委員太三：您提到了，其實有很多的管道嘛！只是協議有協議的管道。"],["牛委員煦庭：那陸委會有沒有掌握這些管道溝通的進度跟成果？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上他們都會……"],["牛委員煦庭：應該你要掌握嘛！對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上他們都會跟我們回報對岸的態度。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為你等於是整個兩岸關係的主管機關嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：他們會回報對岸的態度。"],["牛委員煦庭：他們會回報……"],["邱主任委員太三：包括我們的委員也很熱心，我們也有委員，他們也會去……"],["牛委員煦庭：大家也會監督或什麼……"],["邱主任委員太三：對，對，對。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，所以有管道然後你有掌握嘛！我從你剛剛答詢裡面整理出來的答案是這樣，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們簡單一點就好，因為大家時間有限，好不好？"],["邱主任委員太三：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：根據交通部的報告，因為你8月24號宣布，有1個月的準備期間，為什麼要講1個月的準備期間？其實就是要看這中間中國大陸對我們有沒有善意的回應嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：這是其中之一。"],["牛委員煦庭：這是其中的理由，差不多就1個月，9月24號的時候有具體的回應嗎？也就是從他們的各種管道，你剛剛講的，因為你有掌握嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：各種管道裡面是有得到說他們也會對等開放嗎？有得到這樣的回復嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上他們是認為現在這個時間點不願意談這個問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你其實得到的是不宜，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，不願在這個時間點上面，我想主要應該是涉及他們內部的整體政治情勢評估啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那現在問題……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們的揣測啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：那問題就來了嘛！剛剛我們講兩岸的談判跟協商不能單方面讓利。"],["邱主任委員太三：對啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：尤其是不能我們讓利，因為要對等尊重嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那9月的時候，其實你就已經掌握對方沒有打算要開，那為什麼不再早一點就這個政策我們就喊停呢？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，他有沒有打算我不曉得，但是他現在沒有要談這個議題啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：他說沒有要談這個議題？"],["邱主任委員太三：對，那為什麼……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以狀況是不明就對了？"],["邱主任委員太三：是因為雙方有政治的情勢在變動嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：政治的情勢！"],["邱主任委員太三：我們有選舉嘛！他們有他們內部的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，所以其實9月24號沒有明確的回復，我這樣修正可以，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對，對。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有明確的回復，好，你就繼續，但是10月25的時候，國台辦的朱鳳蓮開了記者會，因為我們的交通部長王國材說按照評估，今年大概是沒有望了，大陸團客是不會來了，要看明年的機會，那國台辦直接就嗆了，說有僵局，僵局就是因為民進黨執政，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個當然對我們來講是很不禮貌嘛！但是客觀上來說，他其實釋出了一個訊號，什麼樣的訊號？就是不愉快嘛！你剛剛講從8月到9月的時候是不明確，可是10月25我覺得這是不友善喔！人家已經有點欺負我們了，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：民進黨喜歡講說對方是欺負我們，在10月25號就已經釋出很明確的訊息說他對這件事情是很不滿意的，負面的訊息出來的時候，為什麼那個時候我們沒有喊停呢？他們確定不來了，那我們當然要緩議，對不對？為什麼沒有呢？是不是請主委說明一下。"],["邱主任委員太三：我講基本上他們說這樣的用語，其實政治上的解讀就很簡單嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：就是不友善嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：不是不友善而已。"],["牛委員煦庭：不是不友善喔？人家就說你們是障礙……"],["邱主任委員太三：不是只有不友善。"],["牛委員煦庭：說你們是談判的障礙。"],["邱主任委員太三：而是說……"],["牛委員煦庭：非常不友善……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們都很清楚臺灣正在進行什麼……"],["牛委員煦庭：你不要問我，你就直接講。"],["邱主任委員太三：總統大選。"],["牛委員煦庭：趕快啦！時間有限啦！"],["邱主任委員太三：對啊！就是在進行總統大選。"],["牛委員煦庭：總統大選，所以呢？"],["邱主任委員太三：所以老共他在操作。"],["牛委員煦庭：操作什麼？好，那問題來了嘛！考驗的是不是民進黨回應這件事的態度？"],["邱主任委員太三：他不是以公開的方式對外說，期待跟他們所謂相同政治立場的人能夠當選嗎？不是這樣表示嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：不是，問題是他跟你講民進黨是談判僵局的障礙的時候，在執行政策的角度……"],["邱主任委員太三：對，為什麼？就是因為大家的政治立場還要溝通嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：執行政策角度的時候，按照民進黨的……你當然應該基於對等嘛！你那個時候是不是政策就要喊停？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：為什麼沒有？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上……"],["牛委員煦庭：人家說你是障礙，人家也說他不會來……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們認為商業上的對等是可以撇開政治的，只是他自己一直要把政治掛在前面嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：這個時候又說要撇開政治，我覺得蠻奇怪的啦！"],["邱主任委員太三：我們期待他自己能夠看到兩岸經貿是有利於兩岸人民，跟政治沒有關係，我們希望跟政治撇開。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，你剛剛講很多啦！你剛剛講到選舉，我也是蠻可以理解的，還有11月3號交通部在答詢的時候，那時候回答游毓蘭前委員質詢時說「即便有不好的訊息，我們還是3月要開放，因為我們要考慮旅行業的生計。」主委，我今天要把這個東西的來龍去脈做一個還原，就是因為我們很擔心，你當初開宗明義就講這個東西不能單方面讓利，我們不能熱臉貼冷屁股，可是講到現在，這個溝通管道不清楚、談判過程不對等、政策又不連貫，我覺得這個是要檢討的。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員剛剛提到的溝通管道沒有所謂不清楚啊！剛剛不是講了有那麼多的溝通管道。"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛問你哪一條管道，你就說我們有很多管道，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：只是在於溝通的結果，他們態度不清楚。"],["牛委員煦庭：重點是不對等嘛！人家很早就講他不來了，很早就講他不來的時候……"],["邱主任委員太三：那這樣的話……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們還開放是不是就變成逆差？那我們是不是就熱臉貼冷屁股？這是不對的嘛！我們就是希望對等，9月、10月有不好的訊息的時候，你那個時候喊停，是不是不會衝擊旅行業，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：9月、10月應該不是要不好，而是說不明的訊息，狀況不明，這個要……"],["牛委員煦庭：10月25就講你們是僵局，他講不會來了，對不對？那就是一個負面的訊息嘛！你如果講9月不明，我接受，10月是負面嘛！就表示狀況不好，你這個政策為什麼不那個時候喊停呢？你那個時候喊停，大家比較不會有意見，為什麼？你踩穩了我們的立場，也維持了對等的原則，大家是不是相對來說沒話說，可是基於旅行業生計也很重要，所以你還是要做，那我也可以理解，就像你講的，有的時候我們丟開政治……"],["邱主任委員太三：後面的評估是交通部的評估。"],["牛委員煦庭：有的時候丟開政策，對，你剛剛講得很好，那是交通部的評估、交通部的立場，可是你陸委會的立場難道不應該守住嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：對啊！所以我們有表達……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以結論是你聽了交通部的建議嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：我們表達說我們認為這是一個純經貿的議題……"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：不需要跟政治……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以……"],["邱主任委員太三：第二個，委員，你應該很清楚。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個時候用不重視對等，我覺得很奇怪啦！"],["邱主任委員太三：老共對於藍白合還有很大的期待。"],["牛委員煦庭：你不要管，你不要講什麼藍不藍白合。"],["邱主任委員太三：這是事實啊！難道不是嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：不要答非所問，好不好？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，我這樣講是你剛剛講我的政治評估嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：今天大家都沒有扯到其他的事情。"],["邱主任委員太三：我是回答剛剛你講的政治評估嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：我們只有就陸客團這件事做討論，不要轉移焦點，好不好？"],["邱主任委員太三：我沒有轉移焦點，這個就是攪和在一起的。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以到了11月，後來到最後才喊停，那問題就很嚴重嘛！你前面的政策反反覆覆不連貫，而且在談判的時候沒有踩穩對等的立場，這點本席予以最嚴厲的譴責。"],["邱主任委員太三：談判怎麼沒有踩穩對等的立場？就是我們提出對等……"],["牛委員煦庭：人家不來你還要，你這樣熱臉貼人家冷屁股，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有啊！所以我們考量……"],["牛委員煦庭：好了啦！主委。還有20秒，請一下交通部，我也有問題要問交通部。"],["林次長國顯：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：既然這件事情已經變成這樣，不是很愉快了，主委休息一下啦！沒關係啦！這個事情既然已經不太愉快了，那至少要善後，你的報告來得很晚，講得也不清楚，我覺得不只是你剛剛講的可以提前一部分出團，這叫做儘量的亡羊補牢，這我可以理解，可是還是有很多旅行業者在這個過程中受到了利益損失，我們國家的信賴保護原則，政策發布之後不執行，本身就是一件很大的問題，對不對？那這件事情難道不值得進行補償嗎？難道不覺得應該為旅行業的寒冬做一些紓困嗎？以及第三個，更重要的，既然這樣的跨國旅遊有問題，我們的國旅難得不應該加強嗎？藉這個機會提醒一下，大家對國旅的評價，住宿太貴、重複性太高，又貴又難玩，難道不應該針對這件事情提出具體的改善措施嗎？剛剛我提的三個問題，請你會後提供書面，不要再拖到下班再給，趕快整理、趕快回來，好不好？"],["林次長國顯：好，謝謝委員，我們會後給。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。次長，馬上請你們有關的工作人員提這個資料給牛委員，好不好？謝謝。","繼續我們請張宏陸委員來質詢。","我們請牛委員幫主席代理一下，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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這個 駱惠主委跟交通部次長有請齁好 有請主委有請次長 謝謝牛煦好主委早安啊 這個先請教你一個問題齁 請問主委是否同意啊兩岸的交流應該要維持對等互利尊重兩岸在談判跟協商的過程中要避免我方讓利更不能熱臉貼冷屁股這樣的敘述你同意嗎"},{"start":28.078,"end":43.61,"text":"基本上平等互惠應該是一個最基本的原則啦大家都朝這個目標在追求因為我剛剛聽你回答蘇巧慧委員質詢的時候你也講對等是很重要的這一點本席完全同意和先續名第二個問題我想請教一下交通部的次長交通部的次長這個"},{"start":47.25,"end":66.699,"text":"去年7月1號開始研議恢復兩岸的觀光旅遊那8月24號是做了對外的公佈依對等的原則對不對也有講對等原則處理兩岸的團體旅遊事務那在你的報告裡也有寫有一個月的準備期嘛對不對這個有沒有錯我跟你做一下先做一下確認沒有問題沒有問題好那再換回主委謝謝"},{"start":69.588,"end":94.961,"text":"所以我們今天要談這件事情是這樣因為這個案子一度本來覺得蠻順利的也可以給旅行業多一點的空間但後來突然峰迴路轉那決策中間的反覆其實造成了旅行業很大的一個傷害所以我覺得我們今天在這個這個內政委員會我們大概要提出質詢去了解過程那更重要的是檢討本案的一些疏失有沒有對等我想這是非常重要的一個題目我先請問一下這個"},{"start":96.602,"end":100.15,"text":"我們過去陸委會跟對岸溝通的管道有哪些?"},{"start":101.451,"end":129.977,"text":"基本上是這樣大概兩岸過去這30幾年來不只是有很多的個案也簽了大概26項的這樣的一個協議那這個協議涵蓋了包括觀光旅遊什麼等等都有那這裡面的協議裡面就建立了一個所謂這個相互溝通的一個機制這機制大概分三個面向第一個平時這個資訊上的提供第二個發生個案上的處理第三個大概政策性的探討"},{"start":130.857,"end":153.243,"text":"例如說到底要不要再多開放哪些東西那這個其實跟你剛剛回答一樣啦陸委會網站其實有講嘛其實溝通不外乎三個管道嘛一個叫政府單位一個叫你剛剛講兩岸協議然後另外一個講說民間人士對不對就這樣講應該沒有錯對不對是陸委會講的另外因為我們就觀光的部分呢我們在北京呢有所謂的台旅會台灣旅行的這個旅行那大陸在我們這邊有海旅會"},{"start":154.604,"end":157.926,"text":"請問有沒有做具體的溝通?有沒有具體的成果?"},{"start":170.133,"end":192.22,"text":"基本上都有透過所謂雙方的這個這個所謂的窗口做了表達什麼樣的窗口是你從你陸委會溝通嗎還是從其他單位溝通就是我剛剛提到了就是所有的協議都有他的所謂的是不是從你陸委會的這個管道啦我們當然會大概都知道政策當討論完了之後就會有所謂業務執行單位啦"},{"start":193.74,"end":200.583,"text":"我剛剛不是提到嗎?雙方都有幾個管道,包括台旅會。所以是透過台旅會這個管道嗎?還是透過海基會呢?還是透過哪一個管道?您提到了,其實有很多的管道。"},{"start":215.49,"end":240.828,"text":"只是協議有協議的那陸委會有沒有掌握這些管道溝通的進度跟成果應該也要掌握嘛對不對因為你等於是整個兩岸主管機關嘛他們會回報對岸的態度包括我們的委員也很熱心啦我們右委員他們也會去大家也會監督什麼所以有管道對不對然後你有掌握嘛我從你剛剛答詢裡面整理出來的答案是這樣對不對我們簡單一點就好啦因為大家時間有限好不好"},{"start":241.368,"end":266.717,"text":"那根據交通部的報告因為你8月24號宣布嘛有一個月的準備期間對不對那為什麼要講一個月的準備期間其實就是要看這中間中國大陸對我們有沒有善意的回應嘛這是其中之一這是其中之一對不對那差不多就是一個月9月24號的時候有具體的回應嗎也就是從他們的各種管道你剛剛講的因為你有掌握嘛各種管道裡面是有得到說他們的人也會對等開放嗎有得到這樣的回覆嗎"},{"start":267.217,"end":294.931,"text":"基本上他們是要認為說現在這個時間點不願意談這個問題所以你其實得到的是不宜嘛 對不對不是 不願意在這個時間點上面那我想主要應該涉及到他們內部的整體政治情勢的評估啦我們的揣測啦那問題就來了嘛剛剛我們講說兩岸的談判跟協商不能單方面讓利嘛尤其是不能我們讓利嘛因為要對等尊重嘛那9月的時候其實你就已經掌握對方沒有打算要開"},{"start":295.911,"end":308.517,"text":"那為什麼不再早一點就這個政策我們就喊停呢?他有沒有打算我不曉得但是他是現在沒有要談這個議題他說沒有要談這個議題所以狀況不明的就沒有了因為雙方有政治的情勢我們有選舉嘛"},{"start":311.559,"end":326.626,"text":"阿他們有他們內部的問題嗎?所以其實9月24號沒有明確的回覆我再修正可以對不對?沒有明確的回覆好你就繼續但是阿10月25的時候阿國台辦的這個朱鳳聯開的記者會嘛因為這個我們的交通部長王國才說"},{"start":328.047,"end":349.265,"text":"這個按照評估啊今年大概是沒有忘了大陸客大陸團客是不會來了那要看明年的機會那國台辦直接就直接也就嗆了說這個有僵局僵局就是因為民進黨執政對不對這個當然是當然是對我們來講是很不禮貌嘛對不對但是這個客觀上來說他其實釋出了一個訊號嘛什麼樣的訊號就是不愉快嘛"},{"start":350.706,"end":371.133,"text":"你剛剛講從8月到9月對不對8月到9月的時候是不明確可是10月25我覺得這是不友善喔人家已經有點欺負我們了對不對對不對民進黨喜歡講說對方是欺負我們對不對現在10月25號就已經很明確的訊息說他對這個事情是很不滿意的是負面的東西訊息出來的時候那為什麼那個時候我們沒有喊停呢"},{"start":372.285,"end":398.297,"text":"為什麼那個時候我們就不喊停他們確定不來了那我們當然也要緩議啊對不對為什麼沒有呢是不是請我也說明一下對啊我想基本上他們所說到的這樣的用語啊其實政治上的解讀就很簡單嘛就不友善嘛不是不友善而已不是不友善喔人家就說不是只有不友善不是只有不友善而是說每個人都很清楚台灣正在進行什麼"},{"start":400.332,"end":403.595,"text":"總統大選所以老共他在操作啊他不是公開的對外說期待能夠跟他們所謂的相同這樣的一個政治立場的人當選嗎"},{"start":421.47,"end":434.975,"text":"問題是他跟你講他講說民進黨是談判僵局的障礙的時候在執行政策的角度執行政策的角度的時候按照民進黨的你當然應該基於對等嘛你是不是那個時候政策就要喊停"},{"start":435.615,"end":436.115,"text":"我們期待他自己能夠看到兩岸的經貿是"},{"start":452.306,"end":474.919,"text":"主委你剛剛講到選舉我也是蠻可以理解的因為11月3號還有啊11月3號交通部在答詢的時候答那時候那個游玉蘭前委員的質詢的時候說即便有不好的訊息我們還是3月要開放因為我們要考慮旅行業的升級主委我今天要把這個中區來龍去脈去做一個還原就是因為我們很擔心啊"},{"start":475.902,"end":498.845,"text":"你當初第一個開宗明義我們就講這個東西不能單方面讓利我們不能熱臉貼冷屁股可是講到現在這個溝通管道不清楚談判過程不對等政策又不連貫我覺得這個是要檢討的內委員剛剛提到溝通管道沒有所謂不清楚啊剛剛不是講了有那麼多的我剛剛問你哪一條管道你就說你沒有很多管道溝通的結果他們態度不清楚啊"},{"start":499.005,"end":499.705,"text":"9月10月應該不是要不好而是要不明的訊息"},{"start":520.053,"end":546.206,"text":"十月二十五就講你們是將軍不會他講不會來了餒對不對那就是一個負面的訊息嘛你如果講九月不明我接受十月是負面嘛就表示狀況不好你這個政策為什麼不那個時候喊停呢你那個時候喊停的時候大家比較不會有意見為什麼你踩穩了我們的立場也維持了對等的原則大家是不是相對來說沒話說可是基於旅行業生計也很重要所以你還是要做"},{"start":546.886,"end":564.977,"text":"那我也可以理解就像你講的有的時候我們丟開政治有的時候丟開政策對你剛講的很好那是交通部的評估交通部的立場可是你陸委會的立場難道不應該守住嗎對啊所以我們有表達所以結論是你聽了交通部的建議我們認為這是一個純經貿的議題不需要跟政治第二個"},{"start":568.979,"end":578.164,"text":"這個時候你又不認識對等我覺得很奇怪你不要講藍白河還有很大的期待啊你不要講什麼藍不藍白河這是事實啊這是事實啊不要打北鎖問好不好今天大家都沒有扯到其他的事情我們就部客團這件事在做討論不要轉移焦點好不好沒有轉移焦點這個就是攪和在一起的嘛"},{"start":590.39,"end":590.43,"text":"委員好"},{"start":615.305,"end":642.147,"text":"既然這件事情已經變成這樣了不是很愉快了主委休息一下啦沒關係啦這個事情既然已經不太愉快了那至少要善後嘛你的報告來得很晚講得也不清楚我覺得不只是這個你剛剛講的說我可以提前一部分出團這叫做盡量的亡羊補牢這我可以理解可是還是有很多的旅行業者在這個過程中受到了利益的損失嘛我們國家的信賴保護原則政策發布之後不執行本身就是一件很大的問題嘛"},{"start":643.408,"end":660.783,"text":"對不對那這件事情難道不值得進行補償嗎難道不覺得應該為旅行業的寒冬做一些紓困嗎以及第三個更重要的既然這樣子的跨國旅遊有問題我們的國旅難道不應該加強嗎提醒一下藉這個機會提醒一下"},{"start":661.323,"end":661.884,"text":"馬上請相關的你們的有關的工作人員"}]}},{"id":"149375","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149375","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f8dee23d7245568d3b97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a67651d8aba7895d035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:40:35 - 09:51:23","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":648,"end_time":"2024-03-06T09:51:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T09:40:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":238,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時40分）謝謝主席。我們請邱太三主委，還有林次長。"],["主席：請邱主委，還有次長，謝謝。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委好！請邱主委先。我們今天的題目是赴陸旅遊團停招，其實就是對禁止組團赴中旅遊這件事情，臺灣社會想要瞭解這個前因後果和未來的影響。我在不管是陸委會的報告還是交通部的報告裡面，其實都看到大家提到的是兩個原因，第一個、當然是基於平等原則之下的國家利益，要平等、要對等，所以中國這邊不開，臺灣這邊當然也就不開，不然兩邊產值差太多，這個不符合國家利益，今天如果不是中國，放在其他國家，我相信我們也是用同樣的道理來面對國家的利益，這樣對嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是第一點。你第二點其實提到的是 M503航線的變動，等於是在我們想要開放赴中國團之後，我們當時在開的時候其實本來就有加一個但書，如果對方有同等善意的話，我們要開，當時的決定是這樣子，結果在這個過程當中，自己看，大家都可以查新聞，包括諾魯斷交，包括最後這個M503航線變動，在我的看法，等於是最後一根稻草啦！可是我想請問陸委會，中國觀光業對我們開放的態度不平等，這是其一，M503航線變動，這是第二，這兩個原因哪一個是今天臺灣不開放赴中團比較重要的原因？哪一個？"],["邱主任委員太三：我想基本上不對等是一個基本的原因。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是基本原則，開宗明義。"],["邱主任委員太三：但是壓倒的最後一根稻草就是M503。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，所以是前面不對等比較重要，還是最後一根稻草比較嚴重？"],["邱主任委員太三：當然是不對等，我們現在在照顧我們國內業者的利益啊！"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以你的意思是前面那個比較重要？我認為兩個都重要……"],["邱主任委員太三：這兩個都涉及到國家的利益啊！"],["蘇委員巧慧：兩個都涉及國家利益啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我還是監督政府、監督陸委會，我今天就是要就教你，我認為M503航線的變動，其實它是一個看不見的利益，我們今天在討論觀光業沒有辦法赴中，沒有辦法組團赴中，對臺灣的影響當然很大。我們可以看到的是，我們現在的觀光業在沒有辦法賺到中國的錢的同時，去那邊業者沒有辦法賺錢，但是陸客不來，我們也沒有辦法賺到錢，這個都有產值可以算。2018年的時候我們去中國消費了將近800億，但是中國來臺灣也帶來了七百多億的消費，所以如果中國客不來臺灣，700億我們賺不到，為什麼我們要給他賺800億？這很清楚嘛！這是對等原則。","可是M503呢？M503看不到、摸不到，但它確實守護臺灣的利益啊！這一點你為什麼沒有向社會大眾多說明一點？我看到你的報告裡面，我用關鍵字查詢，講到觀光有9次，M503只有1次，現在給你時間，主委，M503的變動對臺灣的國安、飛安影響到底有多大？"],["邱主任委員太三：第一個，所有M503或者說所有的航線，其實都是交通部主掌的，各位都知道有一個ICAO（國際民航組織），所有航線的變動基本上都涉及到各國飛航的安全。"],["蘇委員巧慧：航線變動都是，但M503為什麼重要？因為它靠近海峽中線。"],["邱主任委員太三：它也是一條國際航線，所以各位可以看到，各國都在對中國這樣的一個改變給予譴責，或者說認為它變更……"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，這一張圖……"],["邱主任委員太三：第二點，因為它不是只有M503而已，它又有宣布3條航線是東西向的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，W123、W122和W121嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：對，這個都會增加所有……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那個是飛機可以從中國起飛，往臺灣方向飛過來。"],["邱主任委員太三：專業的部分民航局可以講，甚至涉及到國安啦！"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有錯啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：我們國防部所有的軍機都要對應……"],["蘇委員巧慧：不但增加臺灣軍備的壓力……"],["邱主任委員太三：所有增加的航次、航班都會影響到，特別是它又不願意按照既有的默契再往西側偏移，所以我們反制的時間點就會被壓縮。"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有錯嘛！而且這條航線是吵了多久？來，我整理給你看，為什麼陸委會沒有整理這一張呢？我今天之所以問陸委會的原因還包括大陸委員會組織法第一條規定，行政院要求陸委會統籌掌管所有涉及大陸事務，所以當然是問你。你看，從2007年的時候，那時候是陳水扁總統的時代，中國就想要設置M503，可是那個時候我們是透過外交途徑把它給擋掉了，這是2007年，是真正擋掉；2015年，剛剛在說馬英九時代的時候，我們是從沒有M503，在馬英九總統的時期，對啦！他們有去協商啦！協商之後是什麼？M503還是畫了，只是畫偏一點點，就這樣嘛！但是從無到有，M503就是在2015年畫下去的。2018年我們曾經說，中國又要開始片面宣布要靠近金門，又要把這條線打開，又要把它再拉過來了，那是2018年的時候，我們那時候做什麼？我們是用駁回，那個時候就是剛剛說的W123，他們飛機要從中國飛過來臺灣，那個時候因為時間點剛好是春節包機，所以他們有東方航空、廈門航空要飛過來，所以我們可以用准駁的「駁」把它擋回去嘛！","但2024年的現在，有飛機要飛過來嗎？其實坦白講也沒有啊！因為陸客根本不來啊！所以沒有飛機要從那邊來，臺商也很少啊！所以你沒有辦法用航線的准駁來反制嘛！所以我們要用其他手段來表示對M503這件事情的重視，不是這樣嗎？這件事情這麼大條，這麼大的國安事件，只是因為它不是跟個人相關，它是跟我們臺灣整體國家相關，看不到、摸不到，但如此重要，陸委會怎麼沒有用相同的量能去向國人解釋？M503航線被片面變更，就是中國再一次把航線圖調出來，中國再一次往我們的中線靠近，這跟金廈海域衝突事件侵門踏戶有什麼不一樣？不是一樣的道理嗎？所以最後一根稻草很重，它不是稻草而已啊！所以中國對臺灣的態度到底是什麼，其實應該要看得很清楚，我覺得陸委會這應該要多講啦！"],["邱主任委員太三：委員的指教我們會來加強，事實上我們在前幾個禮拜的例行記者會大概都有提到。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啦！但是觀光講的比較多啦！這是我的意見啦！請主委參考，我認為應該要多講一點，看不到、摸不到，但是守護臺灣重要的事情，還是應該讓國人瞭解。","接下來我們來講看得到的觀光部分，請林次。"],["林次長國顯：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們來講觀光，剛剛有說基於平等的部分、順差跟逆差的部分，大家都已經清楚了，我想請教，現在臺灣有多少間旅行社？如果禁止赴中團的話，其實應該就是以中國為主要業務的旅行團、旅行社才會受到重大衝擊，對不對？"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：以它的業務量中50%以上是做赴中團的，這種旅行社在4,000家裡面有多少家？"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，根據觀光署的統計，目前旅行社大概4,038家，您提到超過50%以上做大陸旅遊的，大概有404家，10%不到。"],["蘇委員巧慧：10%不到，但它的業績、營業額受到的影響，你們有評估嗎？"],["林次長國顯：應該用2019年估啦！2019年疫情前。"],["蘇委員巧慧：要用疫情前估啦！"],["林次長國顯：疫情前我們去是大概805億的消費，他們來是739億。"],["蘇委員巧慧：次長，我是這樣覺得，守護臺灣安全，全國一體一致，所以大家往這個方向前進，但如果受到損害的個人，我們當然應該要協助與保障，今天是在全體旅遊業者裡面的一成，還是不到一成？"],["林次長國顯：對，大概一成。"],["蘇委員巧慧：差不多一成左右有受到影響，而且它的業務我們是用50%計算，表示不是全部嘛！"],["林次長國顯：對，它還可以有東南亞、歐洲……"],["蘇委員巧慧：其實我們應該要協助的是，現在臺商都在回流了，大部分的臺商都已經不把雞蛋放在中國了，我們也應該協助旅遊業者把雞蛋移到其他的籃子啊！那我就給你看現在我們國家有多少的優惠措施可以協助這些業者，老實講，我現在看到的，因為疫情紓困的措施已經落日了，所以補貼營運負擔、薪資、員工，這些大概都沒有了，現在是疫後有一個加速擴大吸引國際觀光客方案，請問這個經營赴中團的業者可以用到嗎？不行吧！因為它要吸引國際觀光客，中國客就不來啊！他怎麼來？"],["林次長國顯：以入境為主。"],["蘇委員巧慧：就不行嘛！所以我遍查所有的方案，其實你的這個優惠方案它是吃不到的。"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，旅行業者它可以做出境跟入境，兩邊都可以選擇，所以如果出境到大陸旅遊不行，第一個，它也可以選擇東南亞、日本或是歐美。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是剛剛說的雞蛋不要放在同個籃子裡嘛！"],["林次長國顯：對，第二個，它也可以以來臺灣旅遊為主……"],["蘇委員巧慧：來臺灣的部分，如果它的客源本來都是中國客的話，那它就沒有辦法用到這個了。所以我的意思是說，我贊成你剛剛的配套措施，我要求要有更多的、我建議要有更多的，此時此刻的這個我認為用不上，我建議你們研議。"],["林次長國顯：好，我們跟觀光署來討論。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員"],["主席：謝謝巧慧委員，這個就是我剛剛說的，交通部和觀光署，你們今天好像在這個會議裡面都沒有談到這個部分，好像權責不是你們的一樣，剛好巧慧委員提出這個問題你們才做說明，以後我希望你們也把你們的報告按照你們的權責，還有把你們可以怎麼樣解決問題也寫上來。今天交通部、觀光署，我們都看不到，你們跟陸委會的報告好像是一模一樣，同出一轍，我覺得這是不對的，謝謝。","繼續我們請牛煦庭委員來質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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請邱主委先我們今天的題目其實是這個赴陸旅遊團停招其實就是禁止組團赴中旅遊這件事情對台灣社會想要了解這個前因後果和未來的影響那我在不管是陸委會的報告還是交通部的報告裡面其實都看到大家提到的是兩個原因第一個的話當然是基於平等原則之下的國家利益要平等要對等"},{"start":40.995,"end":41.476,"text":"蘇巧慧"},{"start":64.817,"end":70.363,"text":"開放中國赴中國團之後我們其實本來喔你當時在開的時候你就有加一個但書嘛如果對方有同等善意的話那我們要開嘛當時的決定是這樣子好結果在這個過程當中我自己看嘛大家都可以查新聞嘛包括墨魯斷交嘛"},{"start":82.236,"end":108.945,"text":"那包括最後這個M503航線變動等於在我的看法是最後一根稻草啦好可是我想問的是說請問陸委會在這個中國觀光業對我開放的態度對我們不平等這是其一M503就是航線變動這是第二這兩個原因哪一個原因是今天台灣不開放副中團的"},{"start":110.285,"end":110.405,"text":"蘇巧慧議員"},{"start":131.718,"end":134.881,"text":"兩個都涉及國家利益啊我現在其實我今天我還是監督政府監督陸委會主委我今天就是要跟你就教我認為M503航線的變動其實它是一個看不見的利益我們今天在討論觀光業沒有辦法附中沒有辦法組團附中對對台灣的影響當然很大"},{"start":158.499,"end":158.539,"text":"蘇巧慧議員"},{"start":188.399,"end":189,"text":"講到觀光有9次M503只有一次"},{"start":204.313,"end":223.51,"text":"現在給你時間 主委M503的變動對台灣的國安、非安影響到底有多大第一個所有M503或者說所有的航線其實都是交通部他們組長的那各位都知道有一個IQ 國際民航組織所有的航線的變動那基本上都涉及到"},{"start":224.23,"end":224.35,"text":"﹚蘇巧慧﹚"},{"start":239.087,"end":247.193,"text":"蘇巧慧 第二點因為他不是只有M503而已他又宣布了三條航線是東西向的W123、W122和W121嘛那這個都會增加所有的航班那是專業的部分"},{"start":255.419,"end":277.175,"text":"民安局他可以講,甚至涉及到國安,因為我們的國防部他所有的軍機﹖不斷增加台灣的軍備壓力﹖增加的這樣的一個航次航班都會影響到,特別是他又不願意按照具有的默契在往前移,所以我們的反制的時間點就會被壓縮"},{"start":277.895,"end":278.495,"text":"從2007年的時候那時候是陳水扁總統的時代"},{"start":304.821,"end":312.446,"text":"中國就想要設置M503可是那個時候我們是透過外交途徑把它給擋掉了嘛這是2007年是真正擋掉2015年剛剛在說馬英九時代的時候沒有喔我們是從沒有M503在馬英九總統的時期"},{"start":322.393,"end":322.453,"text":"蘇巧慧"},{"start":346.873,"end":354.855,"text":"蘇巧慧,那個時候他們要從,就是剛剛說的嘛,W123,要從中國飛機過來台灣,那個時候因為時間點剛好是春節包機,所以他們有這個東方航空、廈門航空要飛過來,所以我們可以用準博的博把它擋回去嘛,對不對?但現在2024年的現在,有飛機要飛過來嗎?其實坦白講也沒有啊,因為入客根本不來啊。"},{"start":371.118,"end":371.158,"text":"蘇巧慧"},{"start":388.03,"end":413.472,"text":"這麼大的國安事件只是因為它不是因為跟個人相關它是跟我們台灣整體國家相關看不到摸不到但如此做到你陸委會怎麼沒有用相同的量能去向國人來解釋M503航線被片面片更就是中國再一次把航線圖調出來中國再一次往我們的中線靠近這跟今夏海域衝突事件親盟打轟有什麼不一樣"},{"start":414.893,"end":436.928,"text":"不是一樣的道理嗎?所以最後一根稻草很重,它不是稻草而已啊!所以中國對台灣的態度到底是什麼?其實應該要看得很清楚,我感覺陸委會這應該要多講啦!好!委員的指教我們會來加強啦!事實上我們在前幾個禮拜的這個例行的記者會,我們大概都有提到是啊!但是我們想說"},{"start":442.573,"end":456.249,"text":"關關講得比較多啦這是我的意見請主委參考我認為應該要多講一點看不到摸不到但是守護台灣重要的事情還是應該讓國人了解那接下來我們要講看得到的關關的部分請林次"},{"start":457.911,"end":478.822,"text":"我們來講觀光觀光好了剛剛有說我們基於平等的部分順差跟密差的部分大家都已經清楚了那我想請教我們現在台灣有多少間旅行社如果因為禁止附中團的話那其實受到重大衝擊的應該就是以中國為主要業務的旅行團"},{"start":479.622,"end":484.504,"text":"目前旅行社根據觀光署的統計大概4038家那您提到了超過50%以上做大陸旅遊的大概有404家大概10%不到"},{"start":503.651,"end":521.786,"text":"10%不到但它的業績與月額受到的影響你們有評估嗎去應該用2019年估啦2019年疫情前要用疫情前估啦疫情前去是大概805億的消費我們去那他們來是739億好"},{"start":525.816,"end":552.106,"text":"市長我是這樣覺得我們守護台灣安全全國一體一制所以大家往這個方向前進但如果受到損害的個人我們當然應該要協助與保障今天是在全體旅遊業者裡面的你說一層對大概一層左右還是不到一層差不多一層左右大概一層左右有受到影響而且他的業務我們是用50%計算表示不是全部對他還跟中南亞、歐洲"},{"start":554.707,"end":555.348,"text":"蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧"},{"start":571.52,"end":587.039,"text":"委員會措施可以協助這個業者老實講我現在看到的因為疫情紓困的這個措施已經落日了嘛所以補貼營運負擔薪資員工這些大概都沒有了現在的話是疫後有一個加速擴大吸引國際觀光客方案請問這個在經營附中團的業者可以用到嗎"},{"start":592.062,"end":595.184,"text":"旅行業者可以做出境跟入境,兩邊都可以選擇"},{"start":610.114,"end":610.454,"text":"我們跟觀光署來討論"},{"start":640.455,"end":640.996,"text":"交通部與觀光署"}]}},{"id":"149374","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149374","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f8aaa90945c56cfc2b97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a69ec81ceb8b49550d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"09:27:50 - 09:40:01","影片長度":"00:12:11","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":731,"end_time":"2024-03-06T09:40:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T09:27:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":112,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（9時28分）主席、在座各位官員、各位委員還有各位媒體先進，大家好。本席有請陸委會邱主委。"],["主席：有請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員太三：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委好。首先，本席還是要就剛剛我的程序發言被民進黨委員打斷的事情做個補充。我第8屆擔任立法委員時，我看到行政單位的報告都是非常充實的，但是我們這兩次的會議，我發現民進黨執政8年以來，行政單位專案報告的文字字體越放越大，行距越來越寬，頁數越來越少，然後內容越來越空泛，剛剛也看到這個報告提來我們委員會的時間又很短，等於很急促。再來就是，本席要就今天陸委會提供的這個報告提問，你有把題目放上去耶，那為什麼禮拜一的沒有放？"],["邱主任委員太三：我想還有問題嘛，禮拜一的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我沒有要你回答，沒關係。"],["邱主任委員太三：你不是要問我？我現在回答。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，我還沒請你回答，OK，請你暫停。"],["邱主任委員太三：我暫停。"],["徐委員欣瑩：今天有放題目，禮拜一沒有放題目，很明顯就是故意的嘛！非常非常不尊重，所以本席在這邊要再次強調，如果對召委制定的題目有意見，那可以溝通，但是請尊重。禮拜一是因為主要的內容是在海洋委員會，所以你沒放題目，我只是點到，但今天我們看得很明顯，你的行為就告訴大家，你禮拜一故意不放。","接著我們來看，今天我有很認真聽，雖然頁數很少，但我很認真聽了主委的報告。我們現在突然間宣布停止組團到大陸去，第一個理由說是逆差，兩岸觀光消費長期以來逆差，那我覺得很好笑，我們政府是民進黨執政，既然逆差，你為什麼不想辦法去改變這個問題？你為什麼不想辦法去邀請大陸團過來，反而你是忽視還有損害民眾去大陸觀光的權益。民進黨執政真的很有趣，食衣住行育樂，食衣住行大家已經哀哀叫了，現在連最基本的育樂──組團去大陸，你都可以這樣子政策反反覆覆。所以第一個，講到逆差，本席要跟陸委會說，你要去溝通，你要去邀請他們來啊，要想辦法賺大陸的錢，這是第一點。","第二個，您提到M503航路的改變，那也一樣啊，我們選出政府來是要做什麼？如果他改變，你有去溝通嗎？這就回答「有」或「沒有」，你有沒有去溝通？"],["邱主任委員太三：當然有啊！問題是他基於政治上的考量，想要干預臺灣的選舉，做了這樣的一個決策啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：那很奇怪，為什麼馬政府時代的時候OK？其實馬政府時代那時候他們也有意要運行M503的航線，在馬政府的時候，他們談一談，談好就可以，等於這個航線他就沒有這樣改變，他就取消了，所以這是不是表示出國民黨執政比民進黨執政能夠有效的溝通，能夠為我們民眾帶來權益？"],["邱主任委員太三：第一個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，我沒有要你回答。因為你講有溝通，但是對方還是沒辦法，所以顯示出你就是沒辦法。","第三個，你說是反間諜法，那我現在要跟大家說，很有趣喔，中國大陸的反間諜法是在去年的7月1號就生效了，可是我們政府在去年8月24號的時候，你就宣布要開放啦！奇怪了！你那時宣布要開放的時候沒有發現反間諜法也生效了嗎？現在來說反間諜法有意義嗎？這是什麼邏輯？神邏輯啊！你這是神邏輯啊！所以這是自相矛盾……"],["邱主任委員太三：完全不自相矛盾、完全不……"],["徐委員欣瑩：全部都是你在說、全部都是你在說。"],["邱主任委員太三：這也是你自己在說啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：哪裡？2023年7月1日……"],["邱主任委員太三：我可以回答了喔？我可以回答了喔？"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有、沒有，你說我在說，大家可以去查。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，我要說明……"],["徐委員欣瑩：反間諜法在去年7月1日生效，民進黨政府在去年8月24日宣布開放，那時候為什麼沒有反間諜法的疑慮？有啊！所以這個我們只能說民進黨執政想做什麼就做什麼，政策反覆，好不好？政策反覆……"],["邱主任委員太三：這個我不接受。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不接受，那我想請問，現在我們又有這個禁團令，然後講到損害國家利益，其實所謂的損害國家利益，我不知道，這個意思太含混啊！怎麼樣損害國家利益？這個……"],["邱主任委員太三：我可以回答了喔？"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，你可以回答……"],["邱主任委員太三：第一個、我從前面開始……"],["徐委員欣瑩：請簡要地回答。"],["邱主任委員太三：報告召委，我們是不是能夠雙方好好即問即答？這是立法院職權行使法……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不用教我……"],["邱主任委員太三：第十八條所規定的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在我請你答，你就答。"],["邱主任委員太三：第二個、韓院長及周秘書長都講，雙方是共用這個時間，我們尊重委員，你有三分之二，我總該有三分之一的時間吧！"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，這個質詢……"],["邱主任委員太三：怎麼會沒有？那你把立法院職權行使法第十八條好好看一下……"],["徐委員欣瑩：時間暫停、時間暫停，給主席裁示。"],["主席：先暫停時間一下，主委，不好意思，我們希望基於尊重的原則……"],["邱主任委員太三：對，我也希望尊重啊！"],["主席：如果我們委員沒有請您回答的時候……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！"],["主席：他一定會給你時間回答，如果他不給時間，我們也是來跟他溝通，好不好？所以……"],["邱主任委員太三：對，召委，所以我也期待……"],["主席：在他說話當中，我們期待不要有這樣子……"],["邱主任委員太三：因為我也在……"],["主席：我們不要打斷人家說話，這是最基本的禮貌，好不好？他現在讓你回答，你就就他問你的問題回答就好，好嗎？謝謝……"],["邱主任委員太三：第一個……"],["主席：好，我們繼續開會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就是針對問題回答……"],["邱主任委員太三：對，我現在要針對你剛剛問的問題……"],["徐委員欣瑩：第一個、你什麼神邏輯？"],["邱主任委員太三：我就要針對你剛剛問的問題，第一個、你剛剛講到兩岸的這種協商，馬政府是不是比較會協商？"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個不是我的問題，請暫停。"],["邱主任委員太三：你剛剛不是有問？"],["徐委員欣瑩：我是問……"],["邱主任委員太三：報告委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我問的問題……"],["邱主任委員太三：立法院職權行使法說，你說明你的主旨之後，我要即問即答。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我沒給你那麼多時間，我已經講了，你今天反間諜法……"],["邱主任委員太三：你要我回答哪幾個題目？因為你剛剛問我的最少有5個題目。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我剛剛在闡述，所以你不要浪費我的時間。"],["邱主任委員太三：那你的問題到底是哪幾個？"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以反間諜法這是什麼神邏輯？時間一個是7月1日就生效，你8月的時候OK，現在不OK，這都是你民進黨政府在講，這是第一個。"],["邱主任委員太三：我先就這個回答，好不好？"],["徐委員欣瑩：第二個、損害國家利益……"],["邱主任委員太三：對，沒有問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：又是怎麼樣損害國家利益？"],["邱主任委員太三：就這兩個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：就這兩個問題，給你30秒，請簡答。"],["邱主任委員太三：第一個、我想任何法制的國家都知道，所有立法之後，會有所謂的施行細則，它到底會怎麼樣來操作？所以我們看到去年在反間諜法制定之後，才開始陸陸續續，包括去年年底都有，所以我們當然觀察到……"],["徐委員欣瑩：主席，麻煩請暫停，請暫停、請暫停。"],["邱主任委員太三：他們對國人在大陸的人身安全開始有一些逮捕，各位都知道，好幾個人，要不要我一一講名字……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，不要離題，請暫停、請暫停。"],["主席：現在他有兩個問題請你回答。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，所以我說法律制定之後，我們就是觀察它到底怎麼樣在執行，對國人的侵害風險有多少，當然我們經過這半年多的觀察，發覺它的風險提高……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK……"],["邱主任委員太三：它還制定了保守國家秘密法，任何人只要談到，縱使不涉及國家安全，公務上的機密都會，這是第一個問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請暫停、請暫停。"],["邱主任委員太三：第二個、你剛剛不是講侵害我們的利益嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，你的時間沒有用到……"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我想你也在乎我們國內觀光業者，如果今天我們單方面過去，我們讓他們賺了八百多億，我們國內的業者要去賺哪裡的錢？"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我就說嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：對啊！這個就是損害我們業者的利益。"],["徐委員欣瑩：之前你為什麼不想辦法？"],["邱主任委員太三：第二個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你為什麼……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們雙方有海旅會和台旅會，雙方都表達過了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請暫停。"],["邱主任委員太三：我們也讓它的踩線團來臺灣了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好啦！請暫停，你剛剛講……"],["邱主任委員太三：你叫我回答到底有沒有損害國家利益，我就回答你這個問題嘛！"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我現在要告訴你，因為我剩下2分鐘，現在你說要照顧觀光業者，但是你們當初公布，112年（去年）8月24日陸委會的新聞稿就已經講這個規劃，你規劃也沒有說到只要什麼什麼，你今天……"],["邱主任委員太三：有啊！要對等，剛剛不是講了，開放的時間點就是它開放的時間點啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你就是很含混嘛！你就是很含混。"],["邱主任委員太三：我沒有含混。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你又不行，結果你說不行以後……"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我要唸給你聽嗎？"],["主席：不好意思，主委，請你尊重。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你現在3月1日到5月的又可以，那我問你，人家已經準備好6、7、8月的，基本你應該也知道，我們的旅遊旺季絕對是6、7、8月，當你去年一宣布之後，你知道業者有多少要做陸團的都已經整個規劃下去，像什麼新疆團、西藏團，你現在3月1日到5月的可以去，6月以後都不能去，所以3月1日到5月的要感謝你們皇恩浩蕩，你說可以去就可以去，你說不能去就不能去。"],["邱主任委員太三：這是你說的啦！我不同意這樣的說法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那我問你，我們今天的題目是你的決策過程與後續影響評估，今天你做這個決策下去，你有沒有考慮到我們民間的這種損失，這個損失你有要賠償他們嗎？你就回答你有沒有考慮到損失，今天在報告裡面……"],["邱主任委員太三：剛剛交通部不是已經回答了嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，在報告裡面……"],["邱主任委員太三：交通部不是已經回答你了嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：完全沒有提到。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我先告訴你一件事情。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，我問你，你不回答我……"],["邱主任委員太三：兩岸條例的主管機關是我們，但是還有目的事業主管機關，目的事業主管機關剛剛提到了……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我知道，所以現在……"],["邱主任委員太三：經濟部、交通部，還有財政部，都是所謂的目的事業主管機關。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們最明顯看到的就是陸委會。"],["邱主任委員太三：你要把這兩個層次分清楚啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：然後交通部就找我們觀光署……"],["邱主任委員太三：對啊！他剛剛有報告他們怎麼補救的措施，他剛剛不是報告了嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以民間的你要考慮嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：對，所以你要考慮國內民間的業者啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！所以今天民間的……"],["邱主任委員太三：對啊！你有考慮嗎？你應該呼籲大陸不要這樣子不平等！"],["徐委員欣瑩：我當然有考慮，我一開始就講，你為什麼不積極去把他們找來？"],["邱主任委員太三：我們有積極啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：馬政府時代其實民眾賺大陸的觀光錢賺多少，這個所有人都知道的，你們還要這樣強辯。"],["主席：不好意思！委員，我們的質詢時間已經到了，謝謝欣瑩委員，謝謝主委。","我在這裡再強調一下，我們希望我們彼此尊重，當委員在說話的時候，請官員就不要回應，因為你們這樣一回應，其實第一、會打斷委員的思路，第二個，也會影響到我們收音及媒體們要拍攝錄影的一些工作，大家針鋒相對的話，都講不清楚，我們希望能夠說清楚講明白，好不好？我們儘量維持這樣的秩序，謝謝！","繼續請第2位蘇巧慧委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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禮拜一沒有放題目 很明顯就是故意的嘛"},{"start":115.083,"end":120.167,"text":"禮拜一是因為主要的內容是在海洋委員會所以你沒放題目我只是點到但今天我們很明顯你的行為就告訴大家你禮拜一故意不放"},{"start":143.263,"end":167.195,"text":"好那接著我們來看今天我有很認真聽雖然夜宿很少但我很認真聽了這個主委的報告我們現在突然間宣布這個停止組團到大陸去第一個理由說是逆差長期以來逆差嘛那我覺得很好笑"},{"start":168.135,"end":187.169,"text":"我們政府民進黨政府執政你既然逆差你為什麼不想辦法去改變這個問題你為什麼不想辦法去邀請大陸團可以過來反而你是忽視還有損害民眾去大陸觀光的權益"},{"start":188.03,"end":188.931,"text":"第一個逆差本席"},{"start":206.002,"end":211.309,"text":"要跟陸委會你要去溝通啊你要去邀請他們來啊想辦法賺大陸的錢這第一點第二個您提到是M503航路運行的改變那也一樣啊"},{"start":223.069,"end":240.133,"text":"我們選出來的政府要做什麼?如果他改變,你有去溝通嗎?這就回答,有或沒有,你有沒有去溝通?當然有啊,問題是他基於政治上的考量,想要干預到台灣的選舉。那很奇怪,為什麼馬政府時代的時候OK?其實馬政府時代那時候,他們也有一M503的航線。"},{"start":248.915,"end":265.631,"text":"那政府的時候他們談一談談好就可以這個他等於這個航線他就沒有沒有這樣改變他就取消啦所以這是不是表示出國民黨執政比民進黨執政能夠有效的溝通能夠為我們民眾帶來權益"},{"start":269.354,"end":279.282,"text":"我沒有要你回答因為你講有溝通嘛但是對方還是沒辦法所以顯示出你就是沒辦法那第三個你說是反間諜法那我現在要跟大家說很有趣的我們這個"},{"start":291.94,"end":312.71,"text":"中國大陸的反間諜法是在去年的7月1號就生效了可是我們政府呢在去年8月24號的時候你就宣布要開放啦奇怪了你那時候宣布要開放的時候你沒有發現反間諜法也生效了嗎現在來說反間諜法有意義嗎這是什麼邏輯神邏輯啊你這是神邏輯啊"},{"start":316.792,"end":320.274,"text":"反間諜法在去年7月1日生效民進黨政府在去年8月24日宣布開放那時候為什麼沒有反間諜法的疑慮"},{"start":342.828,"end":371.894,"text":"有啊!所以這個我們只能說民進黨執政你想做什麼就做什麼政策反覆好不好政策反覆你不接受那我想請問現在我們又有這個禁團令然後講到損害國家利益損害國家利益其實所謂的損害國家利益我不知道這個意思太含混啊"},{"start":372.93,"end":401.317,"text":"那是怎麼樣損害國家利益?好,這個可以回答?對,你可以回答。第一個我講,我從前面開始。請顯要的回答。報告召委,我們是不是能夠好好把雙方急問急答?這是立法院職權行使法。你不用教我,現在我請你答你就答。韓院長跟周秘書長都講,雙方是共用這個時間。那我們尊重委員,你有三分之二,我總該有三分之一的時間吧。"},{"start":401.957,"end":408.262,"text":"沒有 這個質詢：徐欣瑩暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫停時間暫"},{"start":428.837,"end":432.859,"text":"我們不要打斷人家的說話我們這是做基本的禮貌好不好他現在讓你回答你就就他問您的問題您回答就好來徐欣瑩是這是針對問題回答你什麼神邏輯我就要針對你剛剛第一個你剛剛講到說兩岸的這種協商那馬政府是不是會比較協商這個不是我的問題你剛剛不是有問我是問說"},{"start":454.848,"end":459.753,"text":"報告委員：徐欣瑩我問的問題：徐欣瑩我問的問題：徐欣瑩我問的問題：徐欣瑩我問的問題：徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":469.682,"end":488.337,"text":"你都問我的最少5個題目我剛剛在闡述所以你不要浪費我時間所以反間諜法這是什麼神邏輯你時間一個7月1號就生效你8月的時候那時候OK現在不OK這都是你民進黨政府在講這第一個第二個損害國家利益"},{"start":490.499,"end":506.879,"text":"第一,我想任何法治的國家都知道,所有立法之後,它會有所謂的施行細則。第二,它到底會怎麼樣來操作?所以我們看到,去年在反建聯法制定之後,才開始陸陸續續有國人"},{"start":508.641,"end":522.768,"text":"包括這個去年年底都有所以我們當然觀察到他開始對國人在大陸的人身安全開始有一些逮捕各位都知道好幾個人不要離題了兩句請暫停所以我說法律的制定我們就是觀察他到底怎麼樣在執行對國人的境外風險有多少當然我們經過這半年多的這樣的觀察發覺他的風險提高"},{"start":535.954,"end":553.074,"text":"他還制定了保守國家經濟法,任何人只要談到重視不涉及國家安全、公務上的經濟都會哦。請暫停,請暫停。第二個,你剛剛不是想說侵害我們的利益嗎?不是,你的利益的時間沒有用到。我們國內觀光業者,如果今天我們單方面過去,"},{"start":554.736,"end":568.288,"text":"我們讓他們對方賺了800多億,然後我們國內的業者要去賺哪裡的錢?所以我就說嘛,之前你為什麼不想辦法?第二個,我們雙方都有,來理會跟台理會,雙方都表達過,我們也讓他的彩線團來台灣了"},{"start":574.634,"end":596.921,"text":"好了請暫停你剛剛講你叫我回答到底有沒有損害國家利益嘛我就回答你這個問題所以我現在要告訴你你現在你說的要照顧觀光業者因為我剩下兩分鐘你說要照顧觀光業者但是你們當初這個公布就是112年去年8月24號陸委會的新聞稿你就已經講這個規劃"},{"start":598.962,"end":606.79,"text":"你規劃你也沒有說到欸只要什麼什麼你今天只要什麼所以你就是很含混嘛你就是很含混所以OK你又不行結果你說不行以後你現在又3月1號到5月的又可以那我問你人家已經準備好六七八月"},{"start":620.464,"end":648.391,"text":"基本你應該也知道我們的旅遊旺季絕對是6、7、8月當你去年一宣布之後你知道業者有多少他們要做陸團的他們都已經整個下去像什麼新疆團、西藏團那你現在3月1號到5月的可以去6月以後都不能去所以3月1號到5月的要感謝你們黃恩浩蕩你說可以去就可以去你說不能去就不能去"},{"start":649.571,"end":664.066,"text":"那我問你今天我們的題目是你的決策過程跟後續影響評估今天你這個決策下去你有沒有考慮到我們民間的這種損失這個損失你有要賠償他們嗎?"},{"start":665.487,"end":666.788,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":689.486,"end":690.708,"text":"對,所以你要考慮民間國內的業者啊對啊,所以今天民間的生意"},{"start":707.406,"end":710.329,"text":"我一開始就講你為什麼不積極去討論馬政府時代其實民眾賺大陸的觀光錢賺多少這個所有人都知道的你們還要這樣強辯委員我們的質詢時間已經到了謝謝謝謝欣瑩委員謝謝主委我在這裡強調一下我們希望我們彼此尊重"}]}},{"id":"149373","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149373","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fb577ebd17dec38a4b97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a641f8fb5ad44a412f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"09:06:48 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我是救援養護處長周英國那目前就我所知那個負責人未姓女姓的負責人跟他先生目前是在國外那債權都是找到那個未姓他的先生的父親找到他父親來求取這個債權"},{"start":183.288,"end":187.189,"text":"那我現在想要請教的因為這個對很多造福員來說真的是非常的不公平我們現在的榮家有高達八成將近八成因為百分之七十九八成是委外的靠委外如果類似這樣的情況發生的時候其實是造成多數的局面包括這個案子他就是四書公司也好或者造福員也好榮家也好"},{"start":211.094,"end":224.039,"text":"還有包括我們自己我們所有我們退府會所以對我們來說其實非常重要我想請教一下當初這個因為我們現在是動用預備金嘛對不對"},{"start":225.373,"end":231.076,"text":"所以你是用待位發放的方式而不是用第二預備金你們有動用預備金嗎沒有沒有確定一下那現在"},{"start":247.464,"end":248.365,"text":"我來回答一下目前處理的狀況那目前這個已經委託一家公司來接手那這個到6月30號都是沒有問題的"},{"start":272.025,"end":298.338,"text":"那至於自救會那一方面就是委員關切的他已經向台南市政府已經提出申請運通已經交由一個顧問公司來辦理相關大量解雇的計畫以及個人的薪資計算等到台南市我收集完之後他會勞資雙方開始了解沒關係這個處置的過程還包括你後續的因為那個是追究的問題可是我在這裡想要請教的部分"},{"start":299.498,"end":320.313,"text":"這一個招標的案子到底是怎麼這是怎麼樣這個廠商到底是怎麼樣通過評選的因為我們是用最有力標嘛這一家廠商到底是怎麼樣通過評選的就本席得到的資料他是110年才成立這樣的照護公司110年喔他第一個案子就是我們的台我們的是台南農家是嗎"},{"start":325.28,"end":331.172,"text":"還是岡山是岡山人家他的第一個案子可是這一家公司他之前是做什麼的他是清潔割草割樹的"},{"start":335.765,"end":348.327,"text":"他居然在110年成立的時候他第一個案子就是我們的岡山榮家第二個案子就是最有力標裡面高達3億多的這個岡山榮家他的照護服務我們當時難道在他的服務品質還有他的標價基本能力專業能力這一些部分我們請來的專家他難道都沒有特別去注意這個部分嗎"},{"start":364.17,"end":389.226,"text":"因為在審核這個合格廠商的部分他的業務範圍也有人力這一段人力派遣這一段人力派遣他以前我剛才已經講過了我相信你會比我更清楚他以前的工作也是做我們榮家的他是我們很重要的一個公司他都是做榮家他大部分我們可以看到這個土的那個標示他大部分都是做我們退輔會的"},{"start":390.146,"end":402.762,"text":"那其他的工作就是清潔啊勞務派遣他的勞務派遣都是割草割樹啊他居然可以得到我們這個招標的案子而且還是最有利標這個還是經過專家審查的"},{"start":405.626,"end":409.628,"text":"所以這個部分我們在這裡請主委特別再查查清楚因為他不是只有後續的解決問題這個牽涉到我們有非常多的榮家他面臨的問題當你在決定這麼重要的工作的時候而且你幾乎80%都是靠委外人力的時候你居然選擇這樣的廠商他做了半年以後就跑了"},{"start":430.08,"end":430.12,"text":"榮佳委員"},{"start":448.719,"end":460.445,"text":"現在有BOT、ROT的方式對不對有台北、中章還有就是岡山剛剛我們提到的為什麼要BOT或ROT"},{"start":461.789,"end":485.812,"text":"因為我們想就是農家有一些空地或是說老舊設施希望藉由北中南我們選了三家農家來釋放這個公告希望說不管是BOT或ROT希望外面的廠商有興趣來投入原因是什麼投入就是我們希望在這個長照建立長照專區來共同來執行這個政府的政策"},{"start":486.67,"end":492.596,"text":"你只為了政府的政策你知道退輔會當初成立的目的還有榮家成立最大的目的是什麼嗎我們不是為了配合政策我們不是在衛福部底下的你當初成立的也不是為了營運跟賺錢最重要的是要安養照顧我們的榮民"},{"start":508.573,"end":512.096,"text":"雖然過去一代前一代的榮民他可能都是年長的或者以前的娃娃兵他可能是單親的可是我們不斷有新的榮民產生剛剛有委員提到現在都是年輕的那你怎麼樣讓現代新一代的榮民他的未來是可以相信政府可以對他有安養的照顧"},{"start":530.293,"end":533.076,"text":"你有這麼大的土地不是給財團去BOT或ROT一次釋出50年20年而是你有這麼大的土地你可以建置更好的一個環境比如說它是安養它不是全部都失智不是全部都是失能要靠完全照顧的"},{"start":548.231,"end":548.271,"text":"：馬文君"},{"start":565.1,"end":565.12,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"149370","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149370","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f2ba419f815ff6c318e47b20f39b04ac8f8ba9b0039caa7a6e7f4788ffc62fd1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:01:31 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11:11:56","影片長度":"00:10:25","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":625,"end_time":"2024-03-06T11:11:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T11:01:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":864,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時1分）謝謝召委。請龔主委。"],["主席：我們再請龔主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：龔主委，辛苦了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：賴委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝，也謝謝你對這個國家的付出，辛苦了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我想首先還是先關切今年的臺灣經濟狀況，看來整個景氣燈號其實持續好轉，大概到綠了，大概也是終結過去17個月之後再次的綠燈。主委怎麼看接下來臺灣整個經濟狀況，包括景氣狀況？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。委員您這邊的資料也可以看到，就是12月份到1月份所有的燈號，除了出口回到綠燈之外，其他的都是變好的燈。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以可以看到它比較是一個全面性的指標，不是單一指標產生的變化，所以為什麼一次會增加5分就是這個意思，這樣的情況它會比較穩當，所以為什麼我們對於2月份來講的話還是相對樂觀的意思就是這樣，不會又掉回去，不會是這樣的情況。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以今年大概都會維持這樣的趨勢嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：現在看起來是這樣子。"],["賴委員瑞隆：現在大概世界各國也估計臺灣的經濟成長率大概是2.7到3.43，主計總處也估了大概是3.43，主委，就國發會、就你個人的角度，你怎麼來看待這個？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為我們覺得主計總處這樣的調整是有它的立論基礎存在，而且預估值是最近的預估值，因為看到了1月份的一些相關變化或2月份的相關變化，它有這樣的估計，所以我們對於3.43是相對樂觀的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：甚至有可能會比這樣有更好的一些狀況？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：那就要我們再觀察一陣子。"],["賴委員瑞隆：後面再觀察。但至少3.43%主委是認同的。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外我也想請教，國內外這些局勢狀況下，後面有沒有什麼樣的一些變數？除了報告上有提到，還有沒有什麼特別是國內的一些因素是我們特別要去注意的？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為國際上的因素，我們有特別提到了，地緣政治的關係會不會影響到供應鏈的一些關係，然後還有國際的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：你的報告上大概都有提了，包括中國的、包括貿易政策、包括貿易的碎片化。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那國內的部分呢？我覺得國內的部分，坦白講，我有一些些的擔憂，就國內一些局勢上面，主委怎麼看？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：國內的部分，我們看起來現在就是持續儘量，至少就我們國發會來講的話，我們如果要讓這個順利的話，去年編的預算，我們就儘量把它真的去落實，包括我們現在推動的六大核心戰略產業、淨零，還有數位轉型的一些推動，如果……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我倒是有點擔心現在國內的情況，我當然也希望是短期的，國內現在包括不管是國會的一些狀況，或者是整個政局的狀況，我倒是有些擔心這樣的狀況會不會影響到國內未來的經濟表現，就是政治性的一些因素。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是不是可以無縫接軌？就是這一任和下一任的政府。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，我們期盼是順利的。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就是這8年來有一些好的經濟上的成果，也來自於整個很順利的……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以我剛才為什麼特別提到，我們現在除了儘量執行已經框定的預算之外，明年的預算我們現在就要開始籌編了，就是先期作業，要不然的話新任政府520上任以後，到8月份它可能會來不及，那我們會先做好第一輪的先期作業，然後交給他們。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以從這個角度，老實講也沒有所謂什麼看守內閣這樣的問題，就是該作為的事情必然要作為嘛！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，當然。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不要到520之前的時候政府有些該做的不做。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，我們一定要趕快做。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就是一定要持續來做，同時在520之後能夠快速的銜接上去。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為它沒有任何停下來的空間，也必須要加快。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我請教一下，大家也在關心包括電價的問題，明天也會有一個電價的報告，電價包括國際能源原料跟國內的採購成本其實有很大的落差，所以台電的虧損我們也要想辦法來做一個解決，電價看來漲是有一定的壓力在了，這個對於未來我們的CPI，我看一下報告上面也都有寫到，大概原來估1.79，其實這算是有點降了，但是如果再加上0.12的話，可能到1.91，剛剛主委有提到，甚至有一些延伸性效果的話，有可能到2，甚至到3。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：0.2、0.3。"],["賴委員瑞隆：總體上有可能過到2，這樣的話，主委怎麼看待？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以我們在物價方面有一個小組嘛……"],["賴委員瑞隆：穩定物價小組。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，穩定物價小組還是會持續的關注，看看有沒有一些配套措施，現在就是有一些源頭的原料關稅等等一些情況，我們在3月前大概都還是不會……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我看到主委在報告裡面有提到，穩定國內物價也是你重要的風險跟因應的工作，當然接下來這也是要去面對的，我問一下主委，整體來看，包括台電的電價問題，主委整體來看，你的看法是怎麼樣？要不要適度做一些調整？調整後對於整個CPI的影響上怎麼做一個好的因應？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，因為現在主計總處預估的大概是1.85，當然，因為現在電價還沒有做最後確定，假設電價如果有調升的話，當然可能就會在2以上或以下。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個2，如果跟其他國家來比的話，這樣的數字……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：還是低。"],["賴委員瑞隆：還是低的啦！所以應該還是在可接受的一個範圍之內。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，現在全世界樂觀的估計，今年來講的話它還是四點多。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，所以如果在2，其實應該還是一個穩健的狀況，剩下的是對於人民的感受。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：甚至對一些比較辛苦的階層，所以當然就會有很多的主張，比如說除了電價調整以外，政府是不是應該再做一些補貼來協助這些民生電價儘量不要有太多波動？主委同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我想經濟部會做一些考量，對於一些不同的產業，可能會有一些分眾的設計啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們也希望主委有機會再那個啦，就是政府不要全部都只靠漲電價來做處理，我知道台電那個是要面對解決的部分，但是也不要只靠它，我還是希望政府能夠給予一定的補貼、經費的補貼，去資助那些……我想用電大戶或者是大廠本身獲利狀況好，它來支付是合理的，要不然虧損都由人民來支付，這也不合理啦！就是大的由那個付，但是比較辛苦的民生這一塊，其實看來波動應該也不會太大啦！但是如果有需要的時候，由政府做適度的一些補貼也不失是一個可行的方法，主委同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，原則上來講，你剛才講的，照顧民生還是很重要的部分啦！所以還是會有這樣的原則。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，穩定物價也是一個重要的工作啦！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但如果有機會透過不管是微調電價、不管是政府的補貼，我們也希望國發會能夠大力來支持。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來我還是要講一下天使基金的部分，主委當然也很重視，整個投資金額35.37億，甚至上次有提到希望增加到百億，這個我們很支持。但是我想講的是，上次也質詢過，光是北部跟南部其實就有很大落差，我上次講過，臺北市光增加就有59家，而高雄是增加3家，最新的資訊是最近臺北市又再增加了27家，新北增加6家，桃園增加2家，高雄也增加2家，也就是說，這樣一個南北的狀況還是存在著，我還是希望在這一塊，主委要很有意識地去支持、協助。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：會，這個部分……"],["賴委員瑞隆：可不可以在下次看到的時候有更顯著的改變，在南部，不管是高雄、臺南，甚至嘉義有更好的一些成長狀況？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：現在高雄來申請的案子基本上都過，現在要把那個申請案擴大。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，上次有跟主委提到，要更多的輔導跟協助，讓他們能夠有更多的提案出來，當然他們的提案我們都支持，但我希望……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以為什麼亞矽3.0我們會擴大這個部分，就是增加這個，因為我們有目標，未來4年裡面獲得投資的金額要翻倍，所以要有更積極的作法。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，如果是主委講到的百億的話，我希望南部可以大幅成長，好不好？這個對南部會有很大的助益。我看到亞矽3.0的架構也都整個提出來，不管是在AI……這也是南部亞灣的一個重點項目，還是你的新創，而且南部也有亞灣新創園，包括矽谷的相關計畫也在進行，包括數位這一塊都在進行，我也希望這一塊主委跟國發會很有意識的協助南部推動，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望看到很具體的一些成果，我會持續追蹤。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來問一下，上次有提到亞灣創新研發中心的進度，主委當時跟我講1個月內會邀集高雄市政府的相關部會推動，這個後來有結果嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們大概有相對的詢問各部會目前可能的設置狀況，當然經濟部想說也可以釋出高軟二期的相關基地，如果真的有成形的話，我們就來努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當時說1個月後會給我一個具體的結果，有消息了嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們去年的時候已經有給辦公室，如果還要再補充資料……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委可不可以講一下，OK了嗎？有要這樣推動嗎？就是亞灣的創新研發中心。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：現在我們可能要再詢問高雄市政府，還有中小企業是不是確定了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是不是請主委在兩個禮拜內給我一個具體的答復，好不好？做這樣的設置計畫，好嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝。好，我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時12分）","繼續開會（11時21分）"],["主席：好，現在我們繼續開會。","請莊瑞雄委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","林岱樺","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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甚至有可能會比這樣有更好的一些狀況的 那就要我們再觀察 但至少3.43主委是認同這樣一個的 那另外我也想請教國內外的局勢狀況下 後面有沒有什麼樣的一些變數 除了裡面也報告上有提到 特別是國內一些因素上是我們特別要去注意的"},{"start":137.298,"end":138.559,"text":"國內的部分我們就"},{"start":167.495,"end":175.148,"text":"呃看起來現在就是持續來盡量至少就我們國發委來講的話我們如果要將這個順利的話"},{"start":177.512,"end":204.854,"text":"去年編的預算我們就盡量的把它真的去落實包括我們現在推動的六大海星戰略產業啊競爭還有數位轉型的一些推動我倒是有點擔心現在國內我當然也希望是短期的就國內的包括現在不管是國會的一些狀況或者是整個政局的狀況我倒是有些擔心這樣狀況會不會影響到國內未來的經濟表現就政治性的一些因素是不是可以無縫接軌就是這一任跟下一任的政府對就是順利的啦"},{"start":206.035,"end":209.859,"text":"這8年來有一些好的一些經濟上的成果也來自於整個很順利的一些工作。"},{"start":224.915,"end":248.784,"text":"那我們現在會做好第一輪的這個先進作業所以從這個我會講也沒有所謂什麼看守內閣這樣的問題就該作為的事情但必然要作為嘛難道到520之前的時候政府有些該做不做就是一定要持續來做那同時間在520之後的能夠快速的銜接上去因為它沒有任何停下來的空間也必須要加快那我也請教一下其實大家在關心包括電價明天有一個電價的報告"},{"start":249.904,"end":274.743,"text":"因為電價包括國際的能源的包括這個原料的一些跟國內的採購的成本其實有很大的落差所以台電的虧損我們也想辦法來做一個解決那電價看來漲是有一定的壓力在的那這個對於未來我們的這個CPI我看一下報告上面也都寫到大概原來估1.79其實算是這一段有點降了但是如果再加上0.12的話可能到1.91那剛剛"},{"start":277.786,"end":278.066,"text":"所以我們為什麼這個物價的"},{"start":296.647,"end":296.887,"text":"賴瑞隆議員"},{"start":313.98,"end":332.422,"text":"我看到主委裡面有一個穩定國內物價也是你的重要的包括你的風險跟因應的工作那我問一下主委那當然接下來這也是要去面對我想問一下主委整體來看因為當然台電包括電價的問題的話主委整體來看你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":333.183,"end":359.69,"text":"要不要試著做一些調整那調整後對整個CPI的整個影響上怎麼去做一個好的對因為現在主義總數預估的大概是1.85那當然因為現在電價還沒有做最後確定假設啦假設電價如果有調升的話當然就會可能在2以上或以下這個2的話如果跟其他國家來比的話這樣的數字還是低還是低的啦所以應該還是在可接受的一個範圍裡對現在全世界"},{"start":360.45,"end":361.231,"text":"主委同意這樣的看法嗎?"},{"start":384.554,"end":403.361,"text":"我想經濟部他會做一些考量齁對一些不同的產業齁他可能會有一些分眾的一些一些設計啦我們也希望主委有機會在那個啦就是政府在不要全部都只靠漲電價來做處理我覺得台電那個是要面對解決但是也不要這樣我還希望政府能夠給予一定的"},{"start":403.921,"end":404.121,"text":"對,就是說"},{"start":431.485,"end":448.603,"text":"原則上來講照顧名聲還是很重要的部分所以這個原則還是會有這樣的原則穩定物價也是一個重要的工作但如果有機會透過不管是微調、電價、不管是政府的補貼我們也希望國發會能夠大力來支持"},{"start":449.904,"end":475.144,"text":"再來我還是要回到講一下天使基金的部分其實主委也很重視整個投資金額35.37億甚至在上次有提到希望增加到百億這個我們很支持但是我也想講的是上次也質詢過其實光北部跟南部其實有很大的落差我上次講過臺北市光增加了就59家而高雄是增加3家而最新的資訊的時候最近"},{"start":475.845,"end":475.865,"text":"會 這個部門"},{"start":491.334,"end":514.229,"text":"可不可以在下次的這個看到的時候有更顯出在南部不管是高雄、台南甚至嘉義有更好的一些成長的狀況現在就是說高雄的他來申請的案基本上都過現在就是說要把那個申請案把它擴大上次有跟主委提到要更多的輔導跟協助他們讓他們能夠更多的提案出來因為當然他們有提案我們也都支持"},{"start":515.61,"end":533.568,"text":"所以為什麼在亞系的3.0我們會擴大這個部分就是這個部分增加這個注資因為我們有目標未來四年裡面獲得投資的金額要翻倍所以要有更積極的做法光如果主委講到百億的話"},{"start":534.389,"end":560.338,"text":"我希望這些南部的部分可以大幅的一個成長好不好這個對南部的這些會有很大的一個注意因為我看到你亞系3.0的架構整個也都提出來了不管是在AI這也是南部現在亞灣的一個重點項目還是你的新創不管是南部也有亞灣新創園包括矽谷的相關計畫在進行包括數位這一塊都在進行我也希望這一塊主委跟國防很有意識的去協助南部來做這個推動好不好我們希望看到很具體的一些成果"},{"start":560.839,"end":571.298,"text":"我會持續追蹤啦再來問一下上次有提到亞灣創新研發中心的進度主委當時跟我講一個月內會邀請高雄市政府的相關部會來做推動這個後來有結果嗎?"},{"start":574.271,"end":591.979,"text":"我們大概有相對的詢問各部會目前可能的設置狀況當然經濟部想說它也可以釋出包括睪丸二期的一些相關基地如果真的有成型的話我們就來...當時說一個月後會給我一個具體的結果 有消息了嗎?"},{"start":597.301,"end":598.461,"text":"謝謝主委謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149369","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149369","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172ff374434ed208d9a91e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a6dcac665c54651f9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:54:31 - 11:08:52","影片長度":"00:14:21","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":861,"end_time":"2024-03-06T11:08:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:54:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":787,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時54分）謝謝主席，我們有請許部長。"],["主席：有請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好！部長，你知不知道為什麼這一次勞動部要引進印度的移工引發社會這麼大的恐慌、焦慮跟反彈？你知道你真正原因在哪裡嗎？本席告訴你，因為你們在這一次的政策當中做了三不，第一個，不透明；第二個，不嚴謹；第三個，不溝通。第一個，我們現在談你不透明的部分，光就MOU的簽訂，本席找出來之前在討論這個議題的時候，你們只會一直說假訊息、假訊息，迴避了什麼時候要進印度移工這個議題。","在今年的2月15號，媒體報導說印度移工MOU簽署一延再延，然後你們說要找合適的時間、簽訂的方式，結果就只隔1天，隔天馬上發布一個訊息，表示臺灣跟印度用視訊的方式簽署了MOU。部長，你們到底在怕什麼？就是當外界在關注你的進度的時候，你們不敢對外明確說明，我不相信這麼重大的事項，外交部的人員請上臺，這麼重大的事項，我們要跟印度來簽MOU可以在2月15號對外說不太知道時間跟簽訂方式，隔一天立刻、馬上視訊簽署，這是不是刻意對外說謊？到底在怕什麼呢？剛剛我聽到所有的詢答，部長你理直氣壯，覺得我們引進印度移工非常的有道理，正當性非常的充足，那你們為什麼遮遮掩掩？為什麼迴避立法院的監督？為什麼是用這樣子突襲的方式，很快的，而且還用視訊來完成這樣的MOU，我們現在疫情早就解封了，視訊是因為疫情不得已。那這麼重大的事項，不能臺印雙方好好的面對面，還可以合拍一個很好看的照片嗎？為什麼是這麼的臨時？來，請說明。這是外交部該說的，還是勞動部該說的？"],["許部長銘春：我來說明，有關於簽署的部分，因為……"],["王委員育敏：你們什麼時候決定2月16號要簽署？什麼時候？"],["許部長銘春：委員……"],["王委員育敏：這個應該老早就要談定喔，你不要告訴我說2月15號下午臨時決定。"],["許部長銘春：確定的日期我可能要再瞭解一下。"],["王委員育敏：是1月嗎？還是2月？"],["許部長銘春：不是、不是。"],["王委員育敏：更早就決定了2月16號？"],["許部長銘春：沒有、沒有，沒有更早。"],["王委員育敏：你說啊，你記憶力怎麼這麼不好呢？"],["許部長銘春：沒有、沒有，我先跟委員說明，這個視訊的方式是印度方這邊建議的，那……"],["王委員育敏：什麼時候決定的啦？印方一定很早就告訴你了。"],["許部長銘春：日期我可能要再確認一下，因為……"],["王委員育敏：你為什麼不敢說明呢？在國會直接講！"],["許部長銘春：不是不敢說明，我是真的不記得。"],["王委員育敏：這麼重要的事情，你不記得？那你記得什麼事？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，委員，第二個就是說這個……"],["王委員育敏：部長，你迴避了我的問題！"],["許部長銘春：我沒有迴避你的問題，這個日期……"],["王委員育敏：你的確就迴避了，那請勞發署署長講，你也不知道嗎？什麼時候確定2月16號要簽署？"],["蔡署長孟良：因為這個聯繫、簽署的日期一直跟印度駐臺北協會在聯洽啦，後來因為是葉會長，因為針對這個問題他也提出了一些建議的時間點，確定之後，原則上我們就是做一些安排。"],["王委員育敏：哪一天確定的嘛？我在問啊。"],["蔡署長孟良：這個日期其實一直在進行當中啦，所以可能不是某一個很明確的……"],["王委員育敏：你們這樣的回答很不行喔！這個就是遮遮掩掩喔，我不曉得為什麼這件事情有什麼好不能公開、透明的。來，外交部回答，什麼時候決定？因為這是臺印雙方的事情，哪有這麼不明確的，2月15號還說不知道，2月16號就簽署，什麼時候跟印度敲定2月16號簽署備忘錄？"],["許副司長書智：報告委員，印度─台北協會事實上確實也定期跟我們外交部保持聯繫、溝通。"],["王委員育敏：好，什麼時候嘛？趕快講，我質詢時間有限！"],["許副司長書智：但是這個案子，因為這個時間也一直在……"],["許部長銘春：動態。"],["許副司長書智：動態在進行當中。"],["王委員育敏：最後確定2月16號是什麼時候？"],["許副司長書智：最後的話，這個至少是在我們選後啦，但確切的時間……"],["王委員育敏：所以1月份就確定了，對不對？那2月15號勞動部還在對外說謊！為什麼不敢講？"],["許副司長書智：就是我們……"],["許部長銘春：我記得不是選後，不是1月。"],["王委員育敏：你看你們兩邊根本都兜不攏！這很奇怪耶！"],["許部長銘春：我是說日期沒有……"],["王委員育敏：到底是1月還是2月？那部長你講！你否定外交部的說法，那你講！"],["許部長銘春：我記得不是1月啦，但是……"],["王委員育敏：那你記得什麼時候啊？你如果能否認，就代表你知道是哪一天啊，你幹嘛不敢講？趕快講！"],["許部長銘春：我知道不是1月，但是你問我確切哪一天，我真的要……"],["王委員育敏：你要回去查嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我要查，我真的要查。"],["王委員育敏：你要下午告訴本席嗎？"],["許部長銘春：下午？可以啊。"],["王委員育敏：好，你下午告訴本席。很明顯就是2月15號你們對外不敢公開講，然後2月16號就簽了MOU。"],["許部長銘春：因為……"],["王委員育敏：我覺得這件事情有正當性，為什麼不要坦然一點？你們越遮掩，國人就越擔心，所以我說你們第一個「不」就是不公開透明。"],["許部長銘春：這個沒有遮掩。因為視訊就是還沒有完成程序，照理說，我們應該是完成程序以後……其實是有規劃完成程序以後對外來說明，因為要換文才算正式程序完成。"],["王委員育敏：所以你們在急什麼？"],["許部長銘春：沒有急。本來跟印方說我們就先視訊，等視訊之後雙方換文完畢，我們就正式對外公開說明。可是那天視訊之後是印度那邊先說我們已經視訊了，所以我們就趕快對外說，並沒有遮掩。本來的想法是因為簽署還沒有完成，是各簽一邊而已。我們本來規劃就是完成以後，會對外說明。"],["王委員育敏：你什麼時候會完成？因為這樣跟你的報告就不符合，你的報告是說你們已經完成，你們對外新聞稿都是說已經完成MOU的簽署。"],["許部長銘春：2月16日是視訊簽署，還沒有完成。"],["王委員育敏：你什麼時候換文完成？"],["許部長銘春：換文完成是2月26日。我剛剛有報告，外交部2月26日給我們公文，說雙方已經換文了。"],["王委員育敏：另外，本席就要問你，你這麼急著簽這個 MOU，去年12月你們的新聞稿一直在說10萬是假訊息、會跟社會溝通。本席就要問你，從去年12月發了那個新聞稿之後，你跟社會做了什麼溝通？我剛剛聽到署長的回覆，我傻眼了！他說是用email給這些反對的團體，然後email之後，因為他們都沒有回覆，所以就這樣算了，這個叫溝通嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這個當然是針對……"],["王委員育敏：你有舉辦任何的公聽會或座談會跟社會大眾說明嗎？你告訴本席舉辦了幾場？從去年12月到2月16號簽了 MOU，總共開了幾場公聽會或座談會跟國人溝通？0場，對不對？我剛剛聽到你回覆其他委員就是0，一場都沒有，然後還用簡單的 email……"],["許部長銘春：座談會沒有，但是我跟這些公會或團體拜訪的時候，我有跟他們說明。"],["王委員育敏：你們列出來去年12月20號到2月16號……"],["許部長銘春：因為那時候……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們的溝通第一個是不透明，第二個就是沒有溝通。正式的溝通是什麼？委員會裡面要求各部會要做的正式溝通就是正式的座談會或者公聽會，而且要留下紀錄。目前為止，你們的回覆就是在臺印簽MOU之前，你們都沒有開。"],["許部長銘春：我們歷來增加來源國簽署MOU之前都是政府評估，因為新增來源國就是給雇主多一個選擇，所以過去沒有召開公聽會或座談會徵詢大家的意見，說我要新增印度好不好……"],["王委員育敏：你確定都沒有嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我記得以前沒有！"],["王委員育敏：你確定都沒有？你有沒有問過以前的勞委會主委陳菊？你確定都沒有嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我沒有問過他。"],["王委員育敏：你怎麼敢說都沒有？"],["許部長銘春：我是說這一件事情，至少我任內……"],["王委員育敏：你任內沒有開放其他……"],["許部長銘春：在衛環委員會，我想黃委員在這裡也可以見證，朝野各黨好多委員都建議我們要新增來源國。"],["王委員育敏：這個是兩件事！"],["許部長銘春：所以我們當時就想，包括……"],["王委員育敏：我現在在問你的是程序的問題，我說你第一個是不夠透明，簽 MOU遮遮掩掩；第二個是你不溝通，公聽會跟座談會也不開，新聞稿說你要溝通，結果也沒有溝通；第三個就是你的程序不嚴謹，剛剛很多委員在問你，到底經過了什麼樣的評估程序，結果你說你們內部開會，人家問你開會有沒有會議紀錄，你也拿不出來。可以這麼的隨意嗎？開放這麼大的國家──印度的移工要進來，結果你的程序是如此草率。這個就是本席今天要問你們的，不是贊成或反對的問題，而是你這一些做了沒有？這個部分我看起來就是沒有做、不夠嚴謹，所以應該要檢討。","另外，你一直說10萬的印度移工要進到臺灣來是一個假訊息，本席就問你，勞發署的專門委員對外說移工的缺口還有8萬，這是你們自己人講的，勞發署評估移工缺口有8萬，這8萬移工是不是要從印度進來？"],["許部長銘春：沒有。"],["王委員育敏：因為你們說現有來源國已經下降，所以才要備另外一個、開發新的來源國。我問你移工缺口8萬，你怎麼補足？你沒有要從印度進來，如果要從新的開發國進來，要從哪裡補足？"],["許部長銘春：現有需求啦！本來我們……"],["王委員育敏：對啊！你剛剛也有說我們有需求。"],["許部長銘春：因為疫情，移工人數真的有降下來。"],["王委員育敏：對啊！我們現在要補足。"],["許部長銘春：再來就是我們現在製造業的……"],["王委員育敏：不然你改變你的說法好了，我們現在移工缺口多少？你回答本席。這個是12月勞發署的專委對外新聞採訪時說的，說移工缺口有8萬。如果部長今天要改變，說我們已經補足了，現在移工缺口還有多少？"],["許部長銘春：我沒有說補足了。我是要跟委員說……"],["王委員育敏：多少嘛？不是8萬，是多少？你告訴本席，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：專委應該就是業務單位，他很清楚。我現在跟委員說……"],["王委員育敏：是，所以這應該是正確的啊！"],["許部長銘春：我的意思是這個缺口並不是要從印度來補足。"],["王委員育敏：要不然要從哪幾個國家補足？"],["許部長銘春：現有的四國就可以。"],["王委員育敏：何必再開放印度呢？"],["許部長銘春：這是多一個選擇。因為我們……"],["王委員育敏：你剛剛講得很急切，說這個一定要開發，譬如印尼可能會下降。"],["許部長銘春：印度的增加跟這個缺口……"],["王委員育敏：現在又告訴大家，從既有的來源國就可以補足，這樣就沒有開放的必要啦！這很矛盾。"],["許部長銘春：不是！我們是未雨綢繆，因為現在這四國……"],["王委員育敏：那就不用急，既然是未雨綢繆、沒那麼急切，你們簽 MOU，我看是很急的樣子。"],["許部長銘春：我們跟印度方這3年都在討論，中間經過疫情的……"],["王委員育敏：因為我時間很有限。我要告訴你的是，你要引進新的來源國，沒有人反對，但你今天最大的問題是什麼？就是我剛剛講的那三點，你不夠透明，也沒有好好溝通，然後程序也不夠完備，所以社會才會反彈，你現在跟社會的溝通、對話是完全不夠的，連你們同黨的委員都這樣講，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：通常都是雙方的MOU都談定了，才會對外說明有新的移工來源國。"],["王委員育敏：最後，我要問你這一些負面的衝擊跟影響，你剛剛一直在說移工的犯罪率低、換算比率等等，現實的問題就是犯罪件數在增加，因為失聯移工的人數也在增加，換算比例有點自欺欺人。這一些就是事實，發生一件就是一個個案，發生一件就是一個真實的數據，所以今天本席要提醒部長，面對問題才能解決問題，而不是在報告上面一直美化，說印度移工完全都沒有問題，這樣就不是社會對話。"],["許部長銘春：我沒有說……"],["王委員育敏：你沒有看到人民心中的擔憂跟恐懼，如果你轉換另外一個態度，多開座談會、公聽會好好跟民眾解釋，針對犯罪的部分會怎麼樣預防；針對這些逃逸移工要怎麼樣強化措施，給大家安全、安心的保證，這樣的社會溝通就是成功的，民眾會反過頭來支持你。因為現在缺工的問題的確是產業界的現象，而民眾的反對是他背後的疑慮跟擔憂。我勸勞動部換一個態度來處理這件事情，而不是用防衛的方式、否認的方式……"],["許部長銘春：不會。"],["王委員育敏：然後用美化的方式告訴大家，都不會有問題……"],["許部長銘春：我們沒有說都不會有問題。"],["王委員育敏：其他國家都很好，大家都不要擔心，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：我們只有說我們一定會注意這個問題。"],["王委員育敏：你要提出你們的解決跟改善之道，我覺得這樣才會讓大家安心，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。我們會正向面對這個問題。"],["主席（王委員育敏）：接下來請盧縣一委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度\n移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":0.9422187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.3303437500000002,"end":3.2878437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.34659375,"end":6.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.071593750000002,"end":10.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.15159375,"end":23.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.41534375,"end":31.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.17784375,"end":39.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.39596875,"end":42.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.84284375,"end":44.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.682218750000004,"end":55.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.330343750000004,"end":58.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.992218750000006,"end":70.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.10846875,"end":72.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.84659375000001,"end":73.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.77471875,"end":74.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.87159375,"end":81.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.54971875000001,"end":84.86159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.28346875000001,"end":86.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.21159375,"end":102.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.52971875,"end":111.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.09784375000001,"end":124.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.56846875000001,"end":128.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.32721875000001,"end":137.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.33846875,"end":148.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.29471875000002,"end":154.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.51721875,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.67721875,"end":160.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.96784375000001,"end":165.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.99721875,"end":164.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.06846875000002,"end":165.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.22034375,"end":165.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.47346875000002,"end":165.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.50721875000002,"end":165.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.66721875000002,"end":167.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.68409375000002,"end":167.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.73471875,"end":167.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.88659375,"end":172.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.02971875,"end":173.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.72534375,"end":175.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.77159375000002,"end":174.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.71659375000002,"end":175.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.00346875000002,"end":176.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.03721875000002,"end":177.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.17221875,"end":176.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.85971875,"end":178.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":178.09596875,"end":178.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.02409375000002,"end":181.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.97721875000002,"end":190.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.73659375000003,"end":184.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.03909375,"end":191.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.05596875,"end":194.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.07284375,"end":192.06846875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謝謝主席 我們有請許部長有請許部長"},{"start":10.117,"end":31.545,"text":"王育敏好 部長好部長你知不知道為什麼這一次勞動部要引進印度的移工引發社會這麼大的恐慌跟焦慮跟反彈你知道你真正原因在哪裡嗎本席告訴你因為你們在這一次的政策當中做了三步第一個不透明"},{"start":32.245,"end":56.603,"text":"第二不嚴謹第三不溝通第一個我們現在談不透明的部分光就MOU的簽訂本席早出來之前在討論這個議題的時候你們只會一直說假訊息假訊息迴避了什麼時候要進印度移工這個議題在今年的2月15號"},{"start":59.805,"end":80.698,"text":"這個媒體報導說印度移工MOU簽署一言再言然後你們說要找合適的時間簽訂的方式結果就只隔一天隔天馬上發布一個訊息臺灣跟印度用視訊的方式簽署了MOU"},{"start":82.608,"end":110.067,"text":"部長 你們到底在怕什麼就是當外界在關注你的進度的時候你們不敢對外明確說明我不相信這麼重大的事項這個外交部的人員請上台這麼重大的事項我們要跟印度來簽MOU可以在2月15號對外說不太知道時間跟簽訂方式隔一天立刻馬上視訊簽署"},{"start":112.308,"end":137.59,"text":"這是不是刻意對外說謊到底在怕什麼呢剛剛我聽到所有的詢答部長您理直氣壯覺得我們引進這個印度移工非常有道理正當性非常的充足那你們為什麼遮遮掩掩為什麼迴避立法院的監督為什麼是用這樣子突襲的方式很快的而且還用視訊來完成這樣的MOU我們現在疫情早就解封了"},{"start":138.991,"end":152.658,"text":"視訊是因為疫情不得已那這麼重大的事項不能抬硬雙方好好的面對面還可以合拍一個很好看的照片嗎為什麼是這麼的臨時來請說明這是外交部該說的還是是勞動部該說的我來說明這個有關於簽署的部分因為你們什麼時候決定2月16號要簽署什麼時候"},{"start":168.522,"end":189.498,"text":"這個應該老早就要談定喔,你不要告訴我說2月15號下午的時間。是1月嗎?還是2月?更早就決定了2月16號?沒有更早。你說啊,你記憶力怎麼這麼不好呢?沒有沒有,我先跟委員說明,這個視訊的方式是印方這邊建議的。"},{"start":191.247,"end":214.345,"text":"他什麼時候決定的啦?印方一定很早就告訴你了日期我可能要再確認一下你為什麼不敢說明呢?在國會直接講我真的不記得那麼重要的事情你不記得,那你記得什麼事?沒有,那第二個就是說這個部長你迴避了我的問題沒有迴避你的問題,這個你的確就迴避了,那那個勞發署署長講,你也不知道嗎?"},{"start":215.68,"end":241.462,"text":"什麼時候確定2月16號簽署因為這個聯繫簽署日期一直跟印度駐台北協會在連洽那後來因為是業會長因為他也針對這個問題他也提出了一些建議的時間點那確定之後那原則上我們就是做一些安排哪一天確定的嘛我在問啊這個日期其實一直在進行當中所以可能不是某一個很明顯你們這樣回答很不行喔"},{"start":243.123,"end":260.489,"text":"這個就是遮遮掩掩我不曉得為什麼這件事情有什麼好不能公開透明的來外交部回答什麼時候決定因為這是台印雙方的事情哪有這麼不明確的2月15號還說不知道2月16號就簽署什麼時候跟印度敲定2月16號簽署備忘錄"},{"start":262.486,"end":287.531,"text":"報告委員這個印度台北協會他事實上確實也定期跟我們外交部保持這個聯繫溝通好什麼時候嘛趕快講我執行時間有限因為這個時間也一直像一直在動態在進行當中最後確定2月16號是什麼時候最後的話這個至少是在我們選後啦那確確實實所以1月份就確定了對不對那2月15號勞動部還在對外說謊為什麼不敢講"},{"start":291.512,"end":319.844,"text":"我記得不是選後不是1月到底是1月還是2月那部長你講你否定外交部的說法那你講那你記得什麼時候啊你如果能否認那你就代表你知道是哪一天啊你幹嘛不敢講啊趕快講我知道不是1月但是你說問我確定哪一天我真的要你要回去查嗎好那你要向我告訴本席嗎"},{"start":321.181,"end":321.441,"text":"報告委員 這個齁 報告委員"},{"start":345.978,"end":360.605,"text":"因為視訊就是還沒有完成程序啦照理說我們應該是完成程序以後其實是有規劃完成程序以後對外來說明就是因為換文才算正式那所以你們在急什麼沒有急啊我的意思是說報告委員本來"},{"start":361.385,"end":387.561,"text":"跟印方那邊是說我們就先視訊然後等視訊雙方換文完畢我們就正式對外有一個公開的說明可是因為那天視訊的時候就是印方那邊先從印度那邊先說啊我們已經視訊了啊所以我們就趕快對外說也沒有遮掩就是說因為本來的想法是說因為你簽署還沒有完成是各簽一邊而已啊我們本來的規劃我跟委員報告我們本來規劃就是完成以後我們會對外說明那你什麼時候會完成"},{"start":389.025,"end":397.502,"text":"那個 因為這樣子跟你的報告就不符合喔 你們報告是說你們已經完成 你對外新聞稿都是已經完成的MOM的簽署喔"},{"start":399.349,"end":426.532,"text":"二月十六是視訊簽署是那你什麼時候換文完成換完成是二月二十六我剛剛有報告就是說外交部他二月二十六來給我們就是說公委說他們雙方換文了那另外一個本席就要問你你這麼急著簽的這個MOU在去年你們的新聞稿十二月的時候你們一直在說十萬是假訊息然後我們會跟社會溝通本席就要問你"},{"start":427.253,"end":443.447,"text":"你從去年12月發的那個新聞稿之後你跟社會做了什麼溝通我剛剛聽到署長的回覆我傻眼了齁他說這些反對的團體呢我是用email給他然後email之後因為他都沒有回覆所以就這樣算了這個叫溝通嗎你有舉辦任何的公聽會或座談會跟社會大眾說明嗎舉辦了幾場你告訴本席"},{"start":452.715,"end":456.157,"text":"從去年12月到你簽了MOU2月16號總共開了幾場的公聽會或座談會跟國人溝通?零場,對不對?我剛聽到你回覆其他委員就是零,一場都沒有,然後還用簡單的e-mail。你們列出來,去年12月20號到2月16號"},{"start":481.733,"end":500.848,"text":"所以嘛你們的溝通我第一個是不透明第二個就是沒有溝通正式的溝通是什麼正式的溝通在委員會裡面要求各部會要做的就是你正式的座談會或者是公聽會而且要留下記錄到目前為止你們的回覆在台印簽"},{"start":501.929,"end":506.93,"text":"你確定都沒有嗎?你確定都沒有?你有沒有問過陳菊那個勞委會主委?你確定都沒有嗎?我沒有問過他"},{"start":532.114,"end":550.662,"text":"對阿那你怎麼敢說都沒有但我覺得委員我是說這件事情齁我在至少我任內齁我在這裡我想黃委員也在這裡都可以見證就好多的我們朝野各黨的委員都建議我們要新增來源國"},{"start":551.693,"end":556.135,"text":"這個是兩件事啊,部長我現在在問你的是程序的問題我說你第一個是不夠透明簽MOU遮遮掩掩第二個是你不溝通公聽會跟座談會也不開新聞稿說你要溝通結果也沒有溝通第三個就是你的程序不嚴謹剛剛其實很多人在問你你到底經過了什麼樣的評估的程序結果你說你們內部開會人家問你開會有沒有會議紀錄也拿不出來"},{"start":581.738,"end":588.2,"text":"可以這麼的隨意嗎開放一個這麼大的國家印度移工要進來結果你的程序是如此的草率這個就是本席今天要問你們的不是說贊成或反對的問題而是你這一些做了沒有那這個部分我看起來就是沒有做嘛不夠嚴謹嘛所以這個應該要檢討嘛另外一個你一直說10萬的印度移工要進到台灣來是一個假訊息那本席就問你"},{"start":609.406,"end":638.809,"text":"你們自己的這一些相關的資料當中這個勞發署的專門委員對外說移工的缺口還有8萬那我就問部長這個是你們自己人講的你們勞發署評估移工缺口有8萬那這8萬是不是要從印度移工這邊進來因為你們說現有來源國已經下降阿所以你才要備另外一個開發新的來源國阿那我問你移工缺口8萬你怎麼補足"},{"start":640.236,"end":664.639,"text":"你沒有要從印度進來,那你要從新的開發國進來,那你要從哪裡補足?就現有需求啦!對啊!你剛剛也有說我們有需求啊!報告委員也是因為疫情嘛!疫情那個移工真的有人數有降來!我們現在要補足啊!好!不然你改變你的說法好了!我們現在移工缺口有多少?"},{"start":665.279,"end":681.05,"text":"你回答本席這個才12月你們勞發署的專委對外新聞採訪的時候說的說移工缺口有8萬那如果部長你今天要改變說欸我們已經補足了好現在移工缺口有多少我是要跟委員說那多少嗎不是8萬是多少你告訴我本席啊快點"},{"start":682.011,"end":696.432,"text":"這個我想我們的專委他應該就是業務單位他很清楚啦所以他這應該是正確的啊我的意思是說這個缺口並不是要從印度來補足要不然要從哪幾個國家補足現有的就可以啦現有的四國那何必再開放印度呢"},{"start":697.393,"end":714.213,"text":"這多一個選擇,報告委員,因為我們...你們剛剛講得很急切,說這個一定要開發,因為譬如說印度可能會下降,現在又告訴大家說從既有的來源國就可以補足,那這樣就沒有開放的必要啦,這很矛盾耶。報告委員,因為我們這個是一個好..."},{"start":717.576,"end":727.925,"text":"這個未雨綢繆啦,因為你現在這次的...那就不用急啊,既然是未雨綢繆,沒那麼急切不是,我們已經跟印度方,就是說這三年我們都在討論部長,我要告訴你,因為我時間很有限我要告訴你的是說,你要引進新的來源國,沒有人反對但你今天最大的問題是什麼?我剛剛講的那三點就是說你不夠透明,你也沒有好好的溝通"},{"start":744.079,"end":765.025,"text":"然後你的程序也不夠完備所以社會才會反彈你現在跟社會的溝通跟對話是完全不夠的連你們本黨的委員都這樣子講然後最後我要問你就是說這一些負面的衝擊跟影響剛剛一直在說這個移工的犯罪率低啊然後你換算那個比率等等現實的問題就是犯罪"},{"start":768.846,"end":794.3,"text":"他的件數就是在增加因為失聯的移工的人數也在增加換算比例是有點自欺欺人這些就是事實發生一件就是一個個案發生一件就是一個真實的數據所以今天本席要提醒部長是說面對問題才能解決問題而不是在報告上面一直美化說印度移工完全都沒有問題你這樣就不是撐回對話"},{"start":796.161,"end":821.177,"text":"沒有去看到人民心中的擔憂跟恐懼那如果你轉換另外一個態度你去多開座談會你開公聽會你好好的跟民眾解釋說針對犯罪的部分我們會怎麼樣預防針對逃逸的這些移工我們要怎麼樣強化我們的措施給大家一個安全安心的保證這樣的社會溝通就是成功的民眾就會反過頭來支持你"},{"start":823.118,"end":844.427,"text":"因為現在缺工的問題的確是產業界的一個現象而民眾的反對是他背後的疑慮跟擔憂所以我勸勞動部你們換一個態度來處理這件事情而不是用防衛的方式用否認的方式然後用美化的方式告訴大家說都不會有問題人家其他國家都很好大家都不要擔心"},{"start":845.047,"end":845.067,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149368","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149368","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fdd77d0e3f90e6d561e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a624b690559eb13b985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:43:08 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越南多少人沒有我們其實就是讓僱主自由去選擇所以我們現在新增了印度也是讓四個國家多增加一個讓這個僱主"},{"start":275.996,"end":286.124,"text":"他自己是他的需求是決定他引進哪個國家我們不會去要求說你要進哪一國是不會只是讓雇主可以有更多的一個選擇對是好那我想請教就是說其實有很多這個臺商他們也有在"},{"start":293.309,"end":293.349,"text":"黃秀芳"},{"start":312.705,"end":333.234,"text":"對﹗"},{"start":333.414,"end":358.086,"text":"我第一個就是說我們其實後續的諮詢會議我們也會邀請曾經在印度投資或設廠或現在有設廠的台商來做我們的諮詢委員另外剛剛委員講的其實現在比如說像越南我們都台商在那邊設廠他也很希望說我們這邊如果移工回母國能夠過去不過我們也有那個機制去推薦"},{"start":359.107,"end":365.005,"text":"就說他給這個移工啊就說你如果回去以後你想要找台商的"},{"start":366.485,"end":366.625,"text":"黃秀芳"},{"start":389.728,"end":392.13,"text":"部長,我們的高教體系遭受印度學生已經有30多年的時間,時間非常長。"},{"start":404.919,"end":428.079,"text":"那勞動部這邊就提到這個引進移工的這個政策有沒有跟其他單位有做過研商就是說可能有做一些討論比如說跟這個教育部或者是其他單位可能有做一些討論就是說未來這個移工的政策跟教育做結合我不知道說你們有沒有做這樣的一個討論"},{"start":429.58,"end":457.368,"text":"有,其實我們就是像一些我們現在的已經進來台灣的移工那有技術的那我們都希望他能夠留下來所以我們其實在那個跨國就是那個人口的移民政策的小組裡面我們就是在推中階嘛就希望這些優秀的移工留下來然後包括他的進修我們有跟教育部在就是有"},{"start":458.147,"end":472.694,"text":"所以這個跟流採久用其實也是就是說我們現在已經開始推動這個流採久用那我也不知道說你們現在推動的狀況到底是怎樣申請的我們到2月底是超過2萬5"},{"start":474.235,"end":474.835,"text":"我去年就兩萬了"},{"start":499.665,"end":500.585,"text":"有的國家是由政府直接"},{"start":519.071,"end":520.132,"text":"我們現在就是有多一個執聘執聘中心"},{"start":536.162,"end":556.144,"text":"國對國引進的一個機制只是說現在有些國家他比較消極比如說像越南他比較消極還有就是像印尼他那個家庭看護工他就是明文說他不是用他們國家規定說不是用引進的執聘的機制不然如果可以我們都希望能夠"},{"start":557.105,"end":572.055,"text":"大家藉由我們這樣的管道來引進尤其像那個叫什麼契約滿了之後的那個齊滿轉換其實透過職聘可以幫忙讓他們可以省下一些仲介的費用所以我希望大家能夠來善用"},{"start":573.096,"end":589.426,"text":"一方面就是說我們今天在提到這個印度移工引進的這個問題可能社會的疑慮那也希望說勞動部要去適宜那另外一方面就是說我們目前這個流財久用剛剛部長覺得說這個成效還不錯所以我也希望"},{"start":592.928,"end":613.957,"text":"因為我在上一屆我也希望就是說你們要到這個工業區可能要去做一些說明因為有一些中小企業他們就是有這個需要原本這個移工他的技術最純熟的時候結果他時間到就要回到他母國那到母國之後反而是自己再開一家公司來對打臺灣這家公司所以當然目前的這個狀況來講應該是改善很多"},{"start":616.698,"end":628.86,"text":"那個報告委員我們這個部分都有跟廠商聯合總會這邊在合作做宣導我還現在成立一個專案的移工流災九雲中心在新竹那大家都可以透過我們這個"},{"start":630.077,"end":632.059,"text":"我希望就是說,部長我也知道您很辛苦,也很願意來解決問題,那當然就是說,要這個"},{"start":649.773,"end":650.293,"text":"這我應該做的,謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"149367","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149367","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fa21783910389668c3ce99dc43694a3e0f8ba9b0039caa7a6e0b9b733f13866c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"10:58:37 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11:08:54","影片長度":"00:10:17","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":617,"end_time":"2024-03-06T11:08:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:58:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":537,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（10時58分）人事長好。我們今天輕鬆一點好不好？人事總處大概是我們司法法制委員會比較輕鬆的一個單位，沒有劍拔弩張的氛圍。前兩天跟人事長一席溝通，心裡非常開心，不曉得人事長還是個花蓮通。秀林鄉的大同、大禮兩個部落無水無電，上山至少要5、6個小時，體力不好的要走7、8個小時，結果人事長去過四趟！我在這裡真的要代表花蓮來表揚一下人事長！那邊沒有光害，天上的星星幾乎可以用手把它摘下來，真的非常漂亮。既然花蓮很多祕境你都去過，我覺得人事長可以在公務人員國內旅遊的時候多推薦一下，花蓮有很多景點你都去過，你可以現身說法讓大家瞭解一下，因為現在團客不能去大陸、大陸團客不能來，所以我們現在國旅真的還是蠻辛苦的，我想人事長對於慰勞我們全國的公務人員、軍公教人員，可以給他們更多選擇的方向，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我這裡答應委員，一定沒問題，事實上過去很多的環境教育、我們的一些主管訓練都會運用花蓮，前幾次也非常謝謝委員的夫人給我們很多的幫助。"],["傅委員崐萁：謝謝。我希望人事長可以帶著大家，有空多到美麗而且是人間淨土的花蓮來走走。","另外，本席看了人事長的相關資料，也算是民國38年以後臺灣第二代的菁英，所以我要特別跟人事長來討論分享一下，臺灣這75年來，不管是經濟奇蹟也好，前面60年的經濟奇蹟、亞洲的小龍、龍頭等等，都是臺灣第一代的菁英把它創造出來的。我記得我還在讀小學、中學，甚至讀高中，那個時候臺灣第一流的人才都願意到政府部門來工作，那時候大家叫「鐵飯碗」，最安全，也不會有任何挑戰，而且這些所謂書生型的人都很喜歡到國家的政府來工作，那個時候我記得女孩子要嫁，嫁公務員最好、最安全，那個時候還是4個剛剛好，生小孩要生4個，那個年代在軍公教的家庭裡是很有光榮感的，所以當一流的人才都進政府的時候，這個國家一定會很強大，而且能夠迅速發展。","所謂的年改，我們的中央政府竟然背棄信賴保護原則，這是聯合國的兩公約，最基本的信賴保護原則，造成這麼多人將一生的青春都付給國家，為人民做完事情，到了六十幾歲，現在沒有辦法過那種上流、中流的生活，甚至惶惶不可終日，而且物價又高漲。對於年改這個事情，請教人事長，你覺得正當性足不足？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，事實上整個年改的過程有思考到世代公平的問題，因為也要考慮到年輕世代，他未來如果志在公部門服務，這些退撫基金以國家的財政以及它的投資報酬率等好幾個面向，是不是……所以政府做這樣一個決定，事實上也是有考慮到這個基金的永續，那個是不得不的一個做法，我想很多事情，大家都要有一種包容。"],["傅委員崐萁：我想人事長你很客氣，但是本席還是要強調，年改這個劣法我們一定會修啦！第一個，國家不能對人民失信，考慮到基金的問題，你可以在某年某月某日訂定以後用新制，你要來當公務員，你要想清楚，用新制來走；舊制的部分政府必須要維護這些人跟政府的契約，這是國家最基本的誠信，沒有國家的誠信就沒有其他社會的價值跟穩定，這個社會存在就是一個信任，國家之所以能夠領導，也就是人民的信任，所以當國家的信任崩潰的時候，沒有信賴基礎的時候，這個社會秩序會蕩然無存。這個部分未來我們在修法的時候，也請人事長、人事總處不要過多的抗拒。","另外，針對基金的部分，你們應該跟考試院去協商，為什麼有些基金做得很好，有些基金卻做得不行？但是政府基金的效能永遠跟民間的基金差很多，落差又很大，民間在賺錢，政府的基金在賠錢。當然，政府的基金如果一天到晚都是為了政治任務在護盤的話，它永遠是被犧牲的，而它被犧牲的原因，竟然是拿這些退休公務人員的退休準備金去做國家任務，這個是很荒唐的一件事情，非常荒唐的一件事情，政府操作不良，然後要歸責於你們，讓你們沒有辦法安養終老，這是完全風馬牛不相及。","另外，現在尤其在偏遠地區，要考慮整個社區安全、對大家生活能夠照應。針對消防人員能不能組工會、有沒有協商權的這個問題，我想在這個會期或是今年一定會提出相關的辦法，也請人事長針對本席今天提出質詢的部分能夠給我一些回應，用書面也可以，沒有關係。我先講一下，當然，歐美國家的消防員幾乎都有組工會，美國、加拿大、法國等等，五眼聯盟等等，但重點是，現在連韓國也有，它固然沒有罷工權，但是可以協商；日本不能組工會，但是它的協會有協商權，畢竟如果沒有辦法給消防員充足的休息時間，這個真的是讓我們整體公職人員的待遇有落差。我舉個例來講，我就看這個消防署資料，在全國這麼多縣市裡面大概都是勤一休一或勤二休二，但是我們消防署就蠻奇怪的，它是勤一休二，這個不能一國多制，為什麼消防署的人員可以勤一休二，其他是勤一休一？這是很不合理的事情，所以我們還是要一套制度跟辦法。","另外，對於這些現職公務人員的調薪，在去年6月1號行政院宣布調漲軍公教人員薪水4%，當然是隨著消費者物價指數累積成長，成長率達到正負百分之五應該予以調整，而且4年檢討一次。但是為什麼退休人員要拖到今年的2月29號？前後差了九個多月，這對退休人員情何以堪？他們已經被砍得這麼慘了，然後在討論的時候又要延宕，我覺得這個步調應該是一致的，而且必須要讓它法制化。人事總處這邊是不是請人事長考量？沒有關係，現在時間很有限，您願意回應也可以，書面給本席也可以，因為我們會長相左右，還會再見到。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們再提供書面資料給總召。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們現在處理臨時提案。臨時提案第二案撤案就不予處理。現在請宣讀臨時提案。","一、","現行軍公教待遇分別有《軍人待遇條例》、《公務人員俸給法》、《教師待遇條例》等規定。然而，有關軍公教待遇之調整機制，迄今尚無法律或法律明確授權之具體規範。","2017年10月立法院法制局「軍公教薪資調整問題之研析」研究報告具體指出，依中央法規標準法第5條第2款規定，關於人民之權利、義務應以法律定之，建議軍公教員工調薪機制應有法律或法律明確授權之規定。","此外，2018年4月12日監察院調查報告亦提出下列調查意見，要求行政院確實檢討：我國公務人員待遇法制因受傳統「特別權力關係」理論之影響，而與法律保留原則未盡相符，有其歷史因素。立法院早自96年起，即多次決議要求行政院檢討各項獎金制度及待遇支給內容，並應儘速推動法制化。行政院人事行政總處原擬於公務人員基準法草案中，增定概括授權條款，然該法所涉範圍過廣，立法工程浩大，推動難度極高；嗣該總處表示擬將「待遇支給要點」提升至法律位階，制定軍公教待遇專法，迄今仍在初步規劃階段，相關法制化作業顯然拖延過久，有欠積極。","為健全軍公教員工待遇調整機制，建請行政院人事行政總處針對軍公教調薪機制法制化進行研擬，並將規劃結果於2個月內，送交司法及法制委員會。","提案人：黃國昌　　吳宗憲　　傅崐萁　　翁曉玲　　林思銘　　羅智強　　謝龍介","三、","因近年生成式人工智慧（AI）蓬勃發展，已知成為眾多產業發展與企業轉型關鍵之一。而當年政府各單位機關透過資源電腦化提升效能，近日更頻頻表示以新科技及生成式人工智慧（AI）輔助業務，打造以生成式人工智慧（AI）驅動的政府數位競爭力。","為了解因應業務狀況調整及時代改變，哪些政府業務可用生成式人工智慧（AI）增加單位效能，及同時檢討全國目前約聘僱人力分布及運用狀況，茲爰請人事行政總處：","一、評估「檢討全國目前約聘僱人力分布及運用狀況」並於三個月內提供書面報告。","二、評估「因應業務狀況調整及時代改變，部分業務運用生成式人工智慧（AI）提升效能」可行性，並於三個月內提供書面報告。","提案人：鍾佳濱　　莊瑞雄　　黃國昌"],["主席：好，謝謝。臨時提案第一案，請提案委員補充說明。"],["黃委員國昌：謝謝主席。我想軍公教薪資調整機制的法制化已經是長久以來應該要做而沒有做的事情，甚至在監察院裡面的調查報告都明確的指出來，本院法制局的同仁非常的優秀，也做了好幾個調查報告，也都明確的點出這項缺失，其實它所造成的問題層面還滿多的，因為臺灣已經進入民主法治的社會，如果公務員調薪這件事情還是上頭說了就算……我相信也不是人事長決定，是比你更高的人在決定到底要不要調、調多少，然後基層的公務員、教師也沒有代表在裡面。我相信臺灣作為法治國家，這種涉及到人民基本權利、重大給付行政的事情，還是要有法律授權的依據。我也利用提案的時間，特別感謝我們的召委吳宗憲，還有中國國民黨黨團的總召傅崐萁以及翁曉玲、林思銘、羅智強、謝龍介委員能夠對提案予以一定的支持，謝謝。"],["主席：好。請問機關有沒有意見要提出？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是不是可以建請同意將規劃結果由「2個月」改「3個月」？"],["黃委員國昌：不要啦！都拖這麼久了，你算一下時間，再3個月就休會了，你以為我很笨嗎？現在3月嘛！過3個月以後就是5月31日以後，當然我是希望今年要延會，但這個還是未定之天，這個如果是新的議題，我要你3個月交出來是強人所難，但這個是討論多久的議題了？我今天質詢的時候我還沒有講，之前的人事長2016年來這邊做業務報告的時候，他的業務報告書裡面就有這一條，我不會騙你，你回去翻。2個月夠了啦！真的！"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席、民眾黨黃國昌總召。一般我們書面提案都是3個月，我提案要求提出書面報告，我的第二案也是這樣。我是覺得評估起來，今年有國會改革這麼重大的案子，延會的可能性應該很高，看看黃總召是不是能考慮一下？如果3個月能夠提得更完整，不妨考慮一下啦！可以建議一下。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦，鍾委員，我很尊敬你，所以你剛剛的提案我也來簽，雖然民進黨對外放話，說台灣民眾黨的提案你們都不簽，但你剛剛拿來，我還是簽了，因為我覺得提書面報告處理AI的問題這件事情有必要，我們向來就事論事，我也就事論事，第一個，雖然我認為延會的機會很高，但這是一個不確定的事情。第二個，我也講白的，延會的目的也不是為了在等他的報告啊！延會的目的是我們有更重要的事情要做。所以我是不是可以建請鍾委員尊重提案委員跟這麼多委員一起連署的內容，就請他們2個月把報告交出來？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟召委報告，「將規劃結果於2個月內提書面報告，送交司法及法制委員會」。"],["主席：好。不好意思，我剛剛沒有提到，其他共同提案人還有沒有問題要請……"],["傅委員崐萁：OK啦……"],["主席：2個月沒有問題的話，那就確定2個月內要提書面報告。這樣子的話，臨時提案第一案就照案通過。","因為第二案撤案了，所以現在處理第三案。","第三案請提案人補充說明。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝召委。剛剛第一案好像是修正後通過，因為有修正成書面報告嘛！","我的部分也要聲明，感謝民眾黨總召黃國昌委員跟莊瑞雄委員的支持，這個提案我沒有額外的說明，都在文字上了，請委員會支持，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們請機關回復。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：遵照辦理。"],["主席：好，本件就照案通過，謝謝。","現在先宣告一件事，待會在羅智強委員詢問完畢之後，休息5分鐘。","接下來請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","林思銘","傅崐萁","鄭天財Sra 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嫁公務員最好最安全那個時候還是4個剛剛好生小孩要生4個"},{"start":221.963,"end":250.513,"text":"那個年代在軍公教的家庭裡是很有光榮感的所以當一流的人才都進政府的時候這個國家一定會很強大而且能夠迅速的來發展所以對於這個所謂的年改讓這些人讓我們的中央政府竟然背棄信賴保護原則這是聯合國的兩公約這最基本的信賴保護原則"},{"start":251.676,"end":279.046,"text":"然後呢造成這麼多人啊這個當他的一生青春都付給國家以後啊為人民做完事情啊到了60幾歲啊現在啊這過得很這個叫沒有辦法過那種上流中流的生活甚至啊惶惶不可終日啊而且物價又高漲所以對年改這個事情這個人事長請教一下你覺得這個正當性足不足"},{"start":280.866,"end":297.72,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上整個年改一個過程他有思考到世代公平的問題因為也要考慮到年輕世代他未來如果是在公部門服務那這些貸付基金是不是以國家的財政他的投資報酬率"},{"start":298.761,"end":299.121,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":327.729,"end":345.518,"text":"國家不能對人民有私信你可以考慮到基金的問題可以在某年某月某日定定以後用心智你要來當公務員你要想清楚用心智來走救治的部分政府必須要維護這些人"},{"start":347.413,"end":370.018,"text":"政府的契約這最基本國家的誠信沒有國家的誠信沒有其他的這個社會的價值跟穩定這個社會存在就是一個信任國家之所以能夠領導也就是人民的信任所以當國家的信任崩潰的時候沒有信賴基礎的時候這個社會啊秩序會蕩然無存"},{"start":371.823,"end":398.161,"text":"這個部分我想人事長未來我們在修法的時候也請您人事總統不要過多的抗拒那另外就是基金的部分阿你們應該跟考試院去協商阿為什麼有些基金他做得很好有些基金他又做得不行但是永遠政府的基金阿他的效能跟民間的基金又差很多落差又很大民間在賺錢政府的基金在賠錢"},{"start":399.799,"end":424.001,"text":"當然政府的基金如果一天到晚都是政治任務在護盤的話永遠它屬於被犧牲的而它被犧牲的原因竟然是拿這些退休公務人員的退休準備金去做國家任務這個是很荒唐的一件事情非常荒唐的一件事情"},{"start":424.901,"end":447.879,"text":"政府操作不良然後要規則於讓你們沒有辦法安養中老這是完全逢馬牛不相及另外就是現在我們尤其在偏遠地區對於整個社區安全對大家生活能夠照應"},{"start":449.841,"end":479.341,"text":"在這個消防人員啊消防人員能不能組工會的這個問題有沒有協商權的這個問題我想在這個會期或是今年一定會提出相關的這些辦法也請啊這個人事長針對本期今天提出的這個質詢的部分能夠給我一些回應用書面也可以沒有關係我先講一下當然歐美國家的消防員都有組工會"},{"start":482.337,"end":497.164,"text":"美國、加拿大、法國、五眼聯盟等等但重點就是說現在連韓國也有他固然沒有罷工權但是可以協商日本不能組工會但是他的協會也有協商權"},{"start":499.239,"end":500.16,"text":"在全國這麼多縣市裡面"},{"start":524.329,"end":524.629,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":549.198,"end":577.275,"text":"對於限職的這些公務人員的調薪在去年在去年6月1號行政院宣布調漲這個軍公教人員薪水4%當然是隨著消費者物價指數累積成長成長率達到增幅5%應該予以調整而且4年監討一次但是為什麼退休人員要拖到今年的2月29號"},{"start":578.499,"end":595.849,"text":"前後差了9個多月這對退休人員情何以堪他們已經被砍得這麼慘了然後在討論的時候要延宕我覺得這個步調應該是一致的本身認為這應該是一致的而且必須要用它法制化"},{"start":597.58,"end":612.447,"text":"所以我想人事總處這邊是不是請這個人事長沒有關係 現在時間很有限您願意回應也可以書面給本席也可以因為我們會長相左右我們再提供書面資料給總長好 謝謝 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149366","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149366","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f0ebf4ff8564325b98e47b20f39b04ac8f8ba9b0039caa7a614c0d4092921a8965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"10:51:00 - 11:01:27","影片長度":"00:10:27","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":627,"end_time":"2024-03-06T11:01:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:51:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":789,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（10時51分）主席好，首先有請我們的龔主委。"],["主席：我們再請龔主委，謝謝。","我們到現場的還有賴瑞隆委員，詢答結束之後我們再休息，謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：委員早。"],["陳委員超明：好幾個委員都問你要不要當經濟部長，我聽到這個消息，我就跟主席建議休息5分鐘給你們上廁所，表示示好。當然國發會的責任非常的重大，也跟經濟發展，跟我們整個社會都是息息相關。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員超明：但是我第一個問題，首先要請教你，金廈海域大陸快艇撞船翻覆事件，到目前都沒有共識，而且兩岸的敵意越來越深。你認為如果再這樣繼續下去，ECFA會不會被取消？對臺灣的經濟影響有多大？你永遠要記得，臺灣跟大陸、香港的順差是1,500億美金，你有沒有什麼心理準備？還是取消隨你取消，反正從1月1號開始關稅已經提高了一部分，好像沒有影響，但是我記得石化業、機械業都是哀苦連天的啊！你有沒有什麼對策？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，我想金廈事件，它是一個意外事件，不應該影響到我們兩岸之間……"],["陳委員超明：你有沒有準備啦！事情已經發生了，像我們院長說的，天有不測風雲，隨時要改變怎麼樣的……不過我聽你這麼講，那好像不要緊，不關你的事耶！加強注意一下！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員超明：院長交代的，天有不測風雲，什麼變化大家都不曉得。第二個，我看到你跟國際聯結的關係，第一個就是臺美21世紀的倡議，我看了內容，大概是我們臺灣配合美方，再來，你最主要的貢獻就是跟英國、跟歐洲、東歐的連結在一起，這裡面當然講的都是功勞。我第一個問你ECFA，其實這個問題要特別處理。我第二個問題要問你，在這樣的狀況，CPTPP你們到現在也沒有一點消息、也沒有聯絡，這是臺灣非常想要進入的一個國際貿易組織，多邊的一個協議，看起來都沒有進展，所以你們不敢在這邊提，你的看法怎麼樣？因為這個是非常重要的經濟貿易協議，我覺得你沒說這些。等一下歐洲要有融資、要有投資，有幾家？那個資料也給我一下。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員超明：昨天又看了新聞提到南向基金，國發會準備40%，民間準備60%，這個內容也讓我瞭解一下，你的動向在哪裡？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好的。"],["陳委員超明：讓我看看你抓的準不準，還是有某種目的而為而去做了一個關心……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：一定是為了臺灣好啦，再請委員幫我們指導。"],["陳委員超明：我不敢指導啦！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，一定要！"],["陳委員超明：我是多看資料，瞭解一下整個狀況。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員超明：今天很多委員都談到大矽谷計畫，就是桃竹苗科技走廊產業。主委，我在經濟委員會兩屆，跟你的關係應該是不錯吧？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員超明：還是你對我有歧視？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我對委員非常尊敬……"],["陳委員超明：我問的絕對有道理啦，表面是好，其實你對我不怎麼好啦！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：沒有啦！"],["陳委員超明：我跟你講，賴清德現在當選總統，賴總統發表大矽谷計畫，在哪個地方發表？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我沒有記起來。"],["陳委員超明：你沒有記起來，我提醒你，在苗栗縣發表，我本來預計贏了3萬5,000票，結果他一發表，我變成只贏2萬票，因為竹南科學園區都是我在推動完成，而且我一直在推動苗栗的產業園區。但是我今天看了你的資料，讀了一下，我也莫名其妙，今天國發會所有提出來的就是講到桃園、就是講到新竹。其實我們賴總統最主要的大矽谷計畫是要在苗栗推展耶！桃園人口已經那麼多了，剛剛我聽到呂委員說什麼道路要開闢、新竹要開闢，我苗栗裡面，你都沒有跟我談到一項，你對我哪一點好？不要看資料，來不及啦！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：有啦！報告委員，如果……"],["陳委員超明：你那裡面有寫什麼跟我講……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，是。"],["陳委員超明：我有你內參的資料，我有你外面公布的資料，我沒拿到證據不敢講，我不敢站在這個地方跟你大小聲啦！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，現在至少在竹南的部分，竹南園區的西側還有東側那個部分……"],["陳委員超明：你呀！我每次邀請你去苗栗，你都拒絕我，都派副主委去跟我交代一下，你曾去過苗栗嗎？我問你。你去苗栗我也不知道，你也不曾說，我看你是沒去啦！你都往大都市跑，所以你沒有深入基層，你的地方創生就是要鄉鎮平衡的，我今天為什麼會把這個主題引來這邊，你說對我不錯，我就不相信了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，上一次第一次風機成立，我跟你有一起出席耶！"],["陳委員超明：那個是你去參加剪綵的，你也要跟我邀功？在我的地方，你還跟我邀功？你實在在亂講。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：你當初只是說……"],["陳委員超明：那是你們國發會推展風機能，還有經濟部長出席，那只有一次啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：您認為這次的……"],["陳委員超明：欸！你這樣不夠深入！你現在產業園區要1,600公頃，如果你內參的資料，你把苗栗縣劃了150公頃，你也不要欺負我們苗栗人！我不曉得當經濟部長……你這個產業發展處還有那個產業研究計畫，我早就已經帶著他們去勘查整個苗栗的狀況，1,600公頃，才給我們150公頃，你實在很看不起我們。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：沒有啦！那是科學園區啦！"],["陳委員超明：那不是科學園區，是產業園區！我們有辦法提供600公頃，而且……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，現在是這樣，科學園區是150公頃，產業園區是另外的145公頃。"],["陳委員超明：不夠！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：現在啦，現在看到的，所以……"],["陳委員超明：我跟你說，你如果真的對我好，你跟我到一趟苗栗……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：同意。"],["陳委員超明：電廠，通霄火力發電廠，全部供應北部的電，苗栗5座水庫都給臺中用，我們要收回來一些，其實竹南、頭份海線區域是發展科技產業走廊最重要的地帶，剛好連接著臺中科學園區，不長不遠，都是很近的。尤其竹南、頭份跟新竹科學園區幾乎是連在一起了，你看那個地形嘛！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員超明：不是啦，桃園你要，但是不能太多，拉近城鄉的差距，苗栗是最重要發展地帶耶！你多多觀察，我看你的道路建設都是在桃園、新竹，我們苗栗哪有？不然你告訴我！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：有啦！就是比如說……"],["陳委員超明：苗栗在哪？你說。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：國道1號的楊梅到頭份的拓寬工程啊！這個是……"],["陳委員超明：那個拓寬工程核定了，你不瞭解，那邊西濱高架化也已經核定了，我們……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：61號平交道的那個平面道路，怎麼去……"],["陳委員超明：平交道的平面道路，你隨便亂說「竹篙鬥菜刀」，那是雙軌化啊！你國發會沒管到平交道的問題啦，所以你對我苗栗不瞭解。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是……"],["陳委員超明：我們苗栗非常重視這個大矽谷計畫，我們的賴清德總統宣布大矽谷計畫是在苗栗縣宣布的，害我受損很多，但是為了地方繁榮發展，我只有忍受下來。所以我希望你在這1、2個月，有空跟我到苗栗一趟，半天就可以，我給你點出苗栗的優勢，苗栗占的地利、苗栗的競爭力在哪裡，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好，但是允許我講一句話好不好？"],["陳委員超明：你又講一個「但是」，我又心驚膽跳了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是，我一定會去、我一定會去，我是說，苗栗我也是很照顧。"],["陳委員超明：唉，你只去了剪綵，還跟我講你有去，那個就是我出生的地方，就是我幫你們的，不然你們離岸風力沒有那麼快。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我說我對苗栗的支持，比如說那時候衛福部提到的國衛院，它要蓋二廠的時候，我不說第二句話馬上就批。"],["陳委員超明：那個是疫苗，你只有那個地方可以蓋，那以前是我爭取過來的。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是啊！我們就是全力支持它蓋二廠。"],["陳委員超明：我跟你講，我們有好的……你不怎麼重視，你只重視桃園、只重視新竹縣、只重視新竹市，你下一次跟我到苗栗，我一定好好招待你。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：苗栗很多公共建設……"],["陳委員超明：好好讓你瞭解苗栗的優勢、競爭力在哪裡，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：很多公共建設的地方配合款我們都沒有要求苗栗。"],["主席：主委，陳超明委員很客氣……"],["陳委員超明：喔，你現在又跟我說配合款了，我都會記得，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請賴瑞隆委員詢答，賴瑞隆委員詢答結束，我們休息10分鐘，本會這次會議中午就不休息，一直到會議結束，謝謝。請發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","林岱樺","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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我覺得你沒說什麼等一下 歐洲人要有融資 要有投資 有幾家 那個資料也給我一下那昨天又看了你新聞 又來一項的基金 國外會準備40 民間準備60 這個內容也讓我了解一下 你的動向在哪裡 讓我看看你抓的準不準 還是有某種目的而為而去做的一個關係"},{"start":201.545,"end":220.706,"text":"一定是為了台灣好啦那再請那個委員幫我們指導我不敢主導我是多看資料了解一下整個狀況那今天很多委員都在談到大矽谷計畫就是桃子子苗科技走廊產業對不對"},{"start":223.309,"end":244.885,"text":"指揮,我在經濟委員兩屆跟你的關係應該是不錯吧?還是你對我有歧視?我問的絕對有道理啦!表面是好,其實你不是對我不怎麼好啦!我跟你講先問總統當選,總統發表大西谷計畫在哪個地方發表?"},{"start":250.734,"end":260.948,"text":"我沒有記起來你沒有記起來我提醒你在苗栗縣發表我本來預計贏了三萬五千票結果他一發表我變成只贏兩萬票"},{"start":262.489,"end":283.976,"text":"因為自然科學研究都都是我在推動完成而且我一直在推動苗栗的產業研究但是我今天看了你的資料讀了一下我也莫名其妙你今天國外為所有提出來了就是講到桃園就是講到薪酬"},{"start":285,"end":306.991,"text":"其實我們賴總統他最主要大細股的計畫是要在苗栗推展你朝鮮人口已經那麼多了剛剛我聽到李委員什麼道路要開闢、薪酬要開闢我苗栗裡面你都沒有跟我談到一樣你對我哪一點好不要看資料來不及"},{"start":308.069,"end":312.712,"text":"我每次邀請你去到苗栗你都幫我記解都派副主委去跟我交代一下"},{"start":341.129,"end":351.482,"text":"你都往大都市跑所以你沒有深圳第一層你的地方創生就是要鄉鎮平衡的"},{"start":352.349,"end":377.41,"text":"阿我今天為什麼會把這個主題引來這邊你說對我不臭我就不相信阿阿那個是你去參加檢查的你也要跟我邀功在我的地方你還跟我邀功你實在懶夠了那是你國外會推展風機能經濟部長你出席那只有一次阿阿你這樣不夠孫子來"},{"start":381.311,"end":405.478,"text":"你現在要產業延期要1600公頃如果你內參的資料你延期給我花8、5公頃你也不要給我求延期的人那你我不曉得當經濟部長你這個產業發展室都還有那個什麼產業延期我早就已經代表他們去"},{"start":407.059,"end":408.12,"text":"我們有辦法足夠提供600公頃而且"},{"start":429.169,"end":449.142,"text":"現在科學園區是150公頃,產業園區的另外是145公頃我告訴你,如果你真的對我好,你跟我到一趟苗栗,電廠在通修火力化電廠全部供應北部的電"},{"start":450.143,"end":459.47,"text":"苗栗五座水庫都給臺中用,我們要收回來一些。其實自然投入的海線地帶是發展"},{"start":460.763,"end":483.844,"text":"科技產業走廊最重要的地帶,剛好連接著臺中科學營區連在一起,不長不遠都是很近的,尤其自然投入跟新竹科學營區幾乎是連在一起的,你看那地板嘛,你跑到桃園,不是啦,桃園你要啦,但是不能太多。"},{"start":484.705,"end":510.416,"text":"垃圾成箱的差距苗栗是最重要發展地帶您多多觀察我看你的道路建設都是在桃園新竹我表在哪有,不你告訴我有啦,就是說表在地帶你說國道1號的楊梅道頭份的拓寬工程那個拓寬工程合定了你沒了解我那邊西濱高加化也已經合定了"},{"start":511.196,"end":533.005,"text":"就是六十一號的這個平交道的那個平面道路齁 平交道的平面道路齁 六百萬是再高高的再高那是雙軌劃 你國外會沒有關到平交道的問題啦 所以你出發票就沒有花開我們苗栗非常重視這個大矽谷計畫"},{"start":535.746,"end":561.465,"text":"我們的賴清德總統宣布大矽谷計畫是在苗栗縣宣布的害我受損很多但是為了地方繁榮發展我只有忍受下來所以我希望你在這一兩個月有空跟我到苗栗一趟半天就可以我給你點出苗栗的優勢苗栗是佔的地利苗栗的競爭力在哪裡好不好但是"},{"start":562.265,"end":566.188,"text":"我對苗栗的支持比如說那時候衛福部提到的這個國會議員他要蓋二廠的時候我"},{"start":585.603,"end":611.309,"text":"不說惡劇馬上就批 壓個是疫苗你只有那個地方可以蓋那以前是我爭取過來的捏我跟你講我們要好了你不怎麼重視你只重視桃園只重視新直線只重視新直市所以跟我下一趟到苗栗我一定好好交代你好好給你瞭解苗栗的因素成分率在哪裡好不好地方配合款我們都沒有要求苗栗"},{"start":612.029,"end":613.772,"text":"好 主委 那個 真正的議員很客氣了我會實現 好吧 謝謝 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149365","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149365","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fdd6c770451d89d033ce99dc43694a3e0f8ba9b0039caa7a609fd7cf4a47809cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:46:06 - 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對不對"},{"start":97.309,"end":114.403,"text":"因為我自己在這個工作擔任檢察官20年我很清楚問題是出在什麼地方除了剛剛所說的檢察事務官的缺額這麼多是因為訓練的問題之外你們有沒有想過他的離職率也很高你們想過這個問題"},{"start":117.401,"end":118.222,"text":"現行制度對檢察事務官而言是一點尊嚴都沒有"},{"start":140.08,"end":140.1,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":148.41,"end":169.48,"text":"你說這樣的薪水對他們誘因會很高其實不容易因為檢視官很難考他們很多都同時都有律師資格他們在外面人家聘他都是高薪你怎麼留得住這些人你們有沒有想過除了他八萬多的月薪之外你們有沒有讓制度上面能夠讓他更有尊嚴"},{"start":171.699,"end":188.759,"text":"你們知不知道現在的檢視官其實他的升遷是有問題的雖然制度上面我們有設置主任檢察事務官有設置檢認缺但是據我所知到目前為止都還沒有人升任到這個位置"},{"start":189.8,"end":215.979,"text":"那檢視官的這個制度應該有20年了吧我印象中應該有那20年之下為什麼還是這樣做那你們有沒有去跟法務部去溝通是不是制度上面發生了什麼問題讓我們留不住檢查事務官我想這個很重要把這應該跟跟貴處也有一點關聯性嗎對那這個你們有沒有去研究過"},{"start":217.705,"end":219.126,"text":"法務部副副長"},{"start":233.319,"end":233.339,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":258.449,"end":273.039,"text":"這兩個東西不是說對錯啦但是你們要不要先去釐清這個問題啊檢視官為什麼缺額這麼高先把問題把它解決嘛那像日本他有一個制度譬如說副檢察官的制度"},{"start":275.801,"end":296.672,"text":"讓檢察事務官有機會轉任副檢察官現在是有檢察事務官在有律師資格之後是有可能轉任檢察官但是這樣是不是我們可以另外一個制度將來我們朝向修法去模仿日本的這個制度方向去思考你要讓檢事官有這個升遷"},{"start":298.473,"end":298.493,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":319.98,"end":335.801,"text":"麻煩你們思考一下因為主任檢察事務官他有的是檢認缺目前的設置又沒有一個年限會不會有可能會造成像關護人那樣子"},{"start":336.442,"end":336.462,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":353.729,"end":354.009,"text":"副檢察官"},{"start":369.38,"end":369.9,"text":"委員提出的"},{"start":393.669,"end":414.871,"text":"真點我覺得非常棒,我們會跟法務部來討論看看,有兩個議題,一個就是檢察事務官他的流失率,到底他跑去是有歷史資格,他去做歷史,還是跑去換他做法官,那會有幾個路徑,先去了解原因,我們會去跟法務部"},{"start":415.231,"end":443.527,"text":"那至於說要增設副檢察官的部分大概也陳副委員你提到的大概要做一些相關法律的一個修正這個幅度那麼大但是我覺得也是可以思考我們再跟法務部來討論看看就是麻煩你們多面向的思考不是說只有增加檢察官助理才能解決問題我跟你講以現行的制度這樣走下去你再多增加幾倍都沒有用"},{"start":444.548,"end":444.568,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":469.004,"end":490.225,"text":"檢視官走到一個位置就全部卡死在那個地方我以前當檢察官太多人跟我抱怨所以我能夠理解問題出在這個地方麻煩你們真的要研議一下那另外就是有關這一次這個勞動節放假的部分我想說外面那個勞工的部分也反彈蠻大的嘛"},{"start":493.413,"end":497.845,"text":"有關這個部分你們在評估的過程中有遇到哪些爭議或阻礙?"},{"start":499.482,"end":528.574,"text":"我跟委員報告齁因為他的源頭會在內政部所主管的紀念日期節日辦法裡面要去要去解開這樣源頭也要啦那內政部應該最近會找我們跟教育部還有國防部一大家一起去開會然後會把每一個部會的意見大家會提一些正面的或者有一些疑慮的部分那內政部會中整會簽到行政院"},{"start":529.054,"end":554.269,"text":"那基本上我們會在那個場合把我們看到的我們的一些意見在那個場域來反映我想說昨天前兩天院長他確實好像是持一個比較贊同的態度嘛對對對那這個部分可能也要請你們嚴厲一下但是你們也不要忽略了這個從勞工方面來的我覺得那個是溝通啦"},{"start":555.349,"end":555.369,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":572.33,"end":572.35,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":589.343,"end":589.363,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":621.595,"end":643.8,"text":"檢任官的時候差距變大了男生檢任官的人數是遠高於女性檢任官這一塊是不是也要麻煩人事長能夠多了解一下這個狀況或是將來有沒有辦法去改善讓這個比例能夠拉近或是看你有什麼高見"},{"start":646.554,"end":656.622,"text":"我我我這裡提供一個數據資料給委員參考吼那在111年的時候啊代表性係數你信大概就是0.85那112年的時候是0.86那事實上"},{"start":662.56,"end":689.265,"text":"這個一個檢任官的一個演化事實上是以前男性的公務員比較多那像我了解的像我們人總啦還有主計總處還有國稅局大概七成都是女性同仁所以他裡面的檢任的比例就不一樣所以有時候就會因為機關的性質有些是工程單位工程單位還是以女男性為主所以他的檢任會比較多可是現在我們在觀察"},{"start":689.805,"end":689.986,"text":"主席"},{"start":706.647,"end":706.687,"text":"謝謝人事長"}]}},{"id":"149364","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149364","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f9f64ed18bf67f19490274675d1217385f8ba9b0039caa7a646d6c6507aabb8eb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:47:53 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10:57:40","影片長度":"00:09:47","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":587,"end_time":"2024-03-06T10:57:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:47:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":440,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時47分）我們請主委。"],["主席：馮主委請。"],["馮主任委員世寬：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：主委好。主委，謝謝，這是我第一次在國防外交委員會質詢，對於退輔會，退伍軍人的相關事務我們是全力去支持，因為退伍軍人的權益對我國的國防其實也是很重要的。你們負責的是就業、就學、就醫、就養還有服務照護這些事項，每一個事項都跟退伍軍人的權益是息息相關，所以我會密切注意這5個業務上面是否能夠具體落實，讓他們在退役之後能夠有尊嚴地生活，也可以發揮他們的影響力。"],["馮主任委員世寬：是的。"],["陳委員冠廷：主委，根據你們2024年1月的統計數字，目前榮民的總數，服役10年以上大概是三十一萬五千人左右；第二類的退除役官兵是五萬七千人左右，所以這兩個部分加起來大概是三十七萬多人，也都是屬於退輔會照顧輔導的對象。這三十一萬五千人的榮民裡面，有領月退的大概是十萬五千人，有十五萬九千人是領一次性的退役金。我比較關心的是這些沒有領月退的榮民生活狀態為何？是否有追蹤？有沒有討論怎麼樣來去照顧後續的生活？"],["馮主任委員世寬：我喉嚨有一點啞，我想請曹處長來給你回報。"],["曹處長東發：委員好，我是服務照顧處的處長，針對這些不是領退休俸的榮民，我們會對他們實施訪視，如果有經濟上的一些弱勢，我們會透過一些資源的鏈結，他的孩子如果有需要我們去做協助的，我們也會透過三節相關的慰問來給他們做一些協助。委員放心，只要是我們服務的對象，我們一定都會把他照顧好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。那如果用65歲作為榮民的分界點的話，65歲以上大概有十四萬五千人，65歲以下的是有十六萬八千多位，65歲以下以現在我們國民的健康狀態來說的話其實是壯年，甚至有一些是青年，有些年紀還比我輕。這個部分你們有落實輔導他們的就業需求嗎？"],["池處長玉蘭：委員好，我是就學就業處處長池玉蘭，跟您報告，65歲以下就是我們的勞動人口，所以我們在十六萬多裡面有九萬六千多他是有業，就暫時不需要我來輔導；六萬多人是無業的，我們優先要針對他無業的部分，如果他有就業的需求，其實我們有很多的作為。第一個，他如果要工作，我們在他服役要準備離營的時候，其實我們就會有一個屆退官兵權益說明會，現場我就有一些就業廠商可以做就業媒合。第二個，他如果說退伍了，新退15天以內其實我就會去做訪視，確認他到底要就學、職訓、就業，因為他們的年齡非常地年輕，第一類的官兵也平均只有43歲，第二類也只有26歲，他基本上在就學、就業，特別是就業上面占了很高比例的需求，我們最主要就是幫他就業。但是他要就什麼業呢？我們就會給他適性評量或諮商，讓他知道他要從業的方向，給他一個建議。"],["主席：處長，抱歉我打斷一下，陳冠廷委員，我們是不是讓馮主委下來一下？因為他現在沒聲音。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，讓馮主委先休息一下，我們請副主委。"],["主席：讓他下來一下，我們讓哪一位……"],["馮主任委員世寬：冷氣太冷。"],["主席：哪一位副主委上來，我會把時間還給你，讓我們換一下，要徵求你的同意，這樣可以嗎？"],["陳委員冠廷：可以，主委先……"],["主席：主委您先就座，是李文忠副主委？好，請上。"],["池處長玉蘭：是，那我們剛剛講，就是讓他知道比較適合去從業的方向，然後我們輔導他去上工，就是就業，就業的時候我們還會給他促進穩定就業的津貼，給他一年的補助讓他適應職場，穩定地就業。就業以後如果他有創業的需求，其實我們會給他創業貸款的利息補貼，這些作為其實這一年，我們每一年都會輔導一萬多人繼續投入勞動市場，做以上的報告。"],["陳委員冠廷：其實之所以問這些問題，是因為現在我們對於榮民的認知跟過去完全不一樣，以前我們講榮民通常都會再加一個年長稱呼「老」榮民，但是其實在我們的服務處裡面，我們大概也是僱用榮民非常多的一個地方，很多都比我還年輕，都是校級軍官退役。這一些榮民，或者有些是第二類退役的官兵，他們的能力跟他們的年齡其實都是還非常年少的，在這樣的狀況之下，我想要知道這一些退役軍官，你們有沒有辦法提升輔導就業比例，是結合過去的專業背景喔！因為我們現在看到包含輔導就業的這些方案等等，其實很少我們有看到直接跟他們過去所屬的能力有關，有些有工程背景，有些有通信，有些甚至是已經唸到博士，對於政策上面也非常熟悉，我想知道你們這方面是怎麼樣處置？"],["池處長玉蘭：是，我跟委員報告，我們從前年開始，其實針對在軍中有專技的，就是您剛剛講的化工通，這些有專業背景的人，我們就是做一個專技的就業媒合。也就是說他在退伍之前，大概退伍3個月，他已經打報告準備要退伍，我就會去找相關的化工通在軍中的專長的人和廠商一起來做求職求才的就業媒合，第一場次的媒合其實成效初媒率非常好，高達90%，去年我們在中南部也是做專業技術的就業媒合，今年我們北中南還要再辦理專業技術的就業媒合活動。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們是希望在軍中學習到的東西，特別是跟科技技能相關的，能夠有機會進入民營機構。其實我看到了很多我們的軍官，曾經特別我有些在海軍服役的同事們，他們在過去其實還有受過出國留學，回來之後他們都很好地在民間企業適應得不錯。所以我們希望未來統整相關，特別有這些技能的這些，然後能夠跟民間的企業，不見得是要在退輔會轄下的這些企業，這樣子的話可以擴展、開拓我們的可能性。"],["李副主任委員文忠：是，委員我能不能跟你做一點補充？"],["陳委員冠廷：好。"],["李副主任委員文忠：我給你幾個數字，第一，在這8年來，我們在8年前，1年的推介榮民含2類就業大概是將近六千人，現在都是超過一萬多人，這是第一個數字。我再對照一個，現在1年部隊退下來多少人？大概是一萬六千人，我們1年推介是超過一萬人，這是第一個。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["李副主任委員文忠：第二個數字是剛剛談的穩定就業，在在8年以前，就業3個月46%的人跑掉，去年是就業滿1年裡面只有百分之九點幾的人跑掉。"],["陳委員冠廷：非常好，很肯定。接下來我要趕快問到……"],["李副主任委員文忠：第三個是你剛才問到非常重要的……"],["陳委員冠廷：不好意思，副主委，這兩個部分謝謝副主委，之後再麻煩書面上給我們這些數字。"],["李副主任委員文忠：是，剛剛委員講到一個非常重要的就是部隊裡面的專業怎麼做，我下個禮拜會跟人事處處長討論。"],["陳委員冠廷：好。"],["李副主任委員文忠：這個非常重要，就是把他在軍中受的訓練、念的學校、他的資歷，怎麼樣能夠有效轉任到外面去，這是下階段非常重要的工作。"],["陳委員冠廷：有效利用，我是希望他對接到民營企業，把過去的資產轉成民間的資產是非常重要的。"],["李副主任委員文忠：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：最後一個問題，其實是跟之前王定宇委員講的比較類似，關於退輔會跟派員駐美外，跟其他軍人團體的聯繫。我還是要快速講一下，透過強化跟美國退伍軍人的聯繫，我是希望能夠跨部會，原因是許多美國的退伍軍人其實是在參眾議院都有職位，或是在一些地方的州政府都有，這樣的資產對於我們的外交、國防來講是非常重要的。所以我想請教一下，我們是否有跟外交部做資訊上的交換？關於這些重要的、過去在美軍服務過的這些人員。"],["李副主任委員文忠：跟委員報告，我們駐美的目前是兩位，就在我們的駐美代表處所轄……"],["陳委員冠廷：我說你們的這些名單，你們都有掌握？"],["李副主任委員文忠：我們的辦公室就是我們國防部的軍事代表團所提供的，所以我們跟國防部、跟外交部是密切地聯繫，我們派去的目的其實是在支持外交部跟國防部。"],["陳委員冠廷：非常好，謝謝，我們希望看到有更佳的互動，然後也希望未來能夠拓展，特別是跟印太國家、跟我們理念相近的國家有這樣的交流機會，這對我們來講是政治資產、是外交資產，也是未來的國防資產。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，兩位請回。","我們休息5分鐘再繼續開會。","休息（10時57分）","繼續開會（11時4分）"],["主席：休息結束，現在繼續開會，接下來進行詢答的委員是馬文君召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-2","speakers":["王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","徐巧芯","洪申翰","陳冠廷","馬文君","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130601_00010"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.54971875,"end":1.6003437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.6003437500000002,"end":1.6172187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.6172187500000001,"end":1.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.70159375,"end":2.3597187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.058468750000003,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.969718750000002,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.087843750000001,"end":53.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.322218750000005,"end":53.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.33909375,"end":53.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.89596875,"en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.071,"text":"老榮銘"},{"start":304.255,"end":331.701,"text":"但是其實在我們的服務處裡面我們大概也是僱用農民非常多的一個地方那很多都比我還年輕那都是校級軍官退役所以說這一些農民或者是說有些是第二類退役的官兵那他們的能力跟他們的這個年齡其實都是還非常年少的所以在這樣的狀況之下我想要知道說這一些退役的這些軍官你們有沒有辦法提升輔導就業比例是結合過去的專業背景"},{"start":333.061,"end":351.638,"text":"因為我們現在看到包含輔導的就業的這些方案等等其實很少我們有看到直接跟他們過去所屬的能力有關有些有工程背景有些有通信有些甚至是已經念到博士對於這個政策上面也非常的熟悉我想知道你們這方面是怎麼樣處置是"},{"start":353.24,"end":359.064,"text":"我跟委員報告我們從前年開始其實針對在軍中有專技的就是您剛講的化工通這些有專業背景的人我們就是做一個專技的那個就業媒合也就是說他在退伍之前"},{"start":369.012,"end":388.781,"text":"大概退伍3個月他已經打報告準備要退伍我就會去找相關的化工通他在軍中的專長的人廠商一起來做求職求財的就業媒合那第一場試的一個媒合其實成效出媒率非常好高達90%那在去年我們在中南部也是做專業技術的一個就業媒合今年我們北中南還要再辦理專業技術的一個就業媒合活動"},{"start":394.844,"end":413.257,"text":"我們是希望說在軍中學習到的東西特別是跟科技技能相關的他能夠有機會進入這個民營機構其實我看到很多我們的軍官那曾經特別我有些在海軍服役的一些同事們那他們是在過去其實還有送我出國留學"},{"start":413.777,"end":413.877,"text":"﹚陳冠廷"},{"start":431.289,"end":458.199,"text":"委員我能不能給你做一點補充我給你幾個數字第一在這8年來我們在8年前大概我們一年推介榮民含二類那就會大概是將近6000人現在都是超過1萬多人這第一個數字那我再對照一個數字現在一年部隊退下來多少人大概是1萬6000人那我們一年推介是超過1萬人這是第一個"},{"start":458.999,"end":475.503,"text":"那第二次是剛剛談到穩定就業在以前在八年前就業三個月46%跑掉去年我們是就滿一年裡面只有九點幾%跑掉第三個是你剛才講到非常重要的這兩個部分我們現在謝謝副主委之後再麻煩書面上給我們一些"},{"start":482.485,"end":500.281,"text":"是那剛剛委員講到一個非常重要的就是部隊裡面的專業怎麼做我下個禮拜會跟市長討論這個非常重要就把他在軍中的所有的信念念的學校他的資歷怎麼能夠有效轉讓到外面去這是下階段非常重要的工作那這樣子的話"},{"start":504.845,"end":528.705,"text":"最後一個問題其實是跟之前那個王定遠委員講的是比較類似關於退伍會跟這個派員駐美外跟其他的軍人團體的聯繫那我還是要快速講一下就是說透過強化跟美國退伍軍人的聯繫我是希望他能夠跨部會的原因是因為許多美國的退伍軍人其實是在參眾議院都有職位或者是在我們的地方"},{"start":528.985,"end":530.966,"text":"跟委包括我們駐美的目前是兩位就在我們的駐美代表處"},{"start":556.9,"end":569.495,"text":"我們的辦公室就是我們國防部的軍事代表團所提供的所以跟國防部跟外交部是密切的聯合我們派系的目的其實在支持外交部跟國防部"},{"start":569.895,"end":570.095,"text":"陳冠廷委員"}]}},{"id":"149363","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149363","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f624b358da237b4cd8e47b20f39b04ac8f8ba9b0039caa7a673ed662baa63b46f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:39:06 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10:50:42","影片長度":"00:11:36","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":696,"end_time":"2024-03-06T10:50:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:39:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":646,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時39分）謝謝主席，本席想邀請主委。"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：召委好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，你什麼時候要去當經濟部長？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我沒有接到這樣的訊息。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我看你笑咪咪啊！是不是真的確定了？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：沒有，沒有，真的沒有，真的沒有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為今天的媒體寫你是呼聲最高，有沒有人告訴你？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：沒有，真的沒有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有沒有這個人生規劃？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我現在就是做好……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有這個人生規劃？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：每一天先做好每天的工作。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問有沒有這個人生規劃？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：就是每一天做好現在要做的工作。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問經濟部長這個職務，你有沒有人生規劃？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，我覺得現在我們就是……因為現在很急的就是明年的預算，現在要趕快先期作業要籌編。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請針對本席的提問……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：沒有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：再請問你來當國發會主委的時候，有沒有這個人生規劃？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：你說國發會主委嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：國發會主委當初是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有沒有這個人生規劃？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：當初是希望可以盡一分力，國發會主委的部分是有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這是有規劃，是嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：有希望可以盡一分力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是你有人生規劃嗎？是不是？這個國發會主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，當初是有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那這個經濟部長呢？你有沒有人生規劃？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不管在什麼職務，我相信你會努力。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請問，臺中是航太工具機暨零組件、光電面板、自行車及零組件、木工機械、手工具等這些產業的聚落，非常重要的重鎮。臺中市經發局非常的努力在統計，一年臺中展覽大概有60檔次，但是我們目前最大的檔次就是烏日高鐵旁邊，當然它的設備是……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，那個是臨時的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是臨時的，還是不足的。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：而且它的櫃位只有1,107位，真的是不足，在這樣的情況之下，我們為了要打開整個產業跟賣家的知名度，這非常重要，要協助我們的產業界，因此我們還要怎麼樣呢？因為設備不足，我們要拎著皮箱北上或者是要花了很多的成本到國外去參展，這個會影響到我們產業的發展，所以我們要有更完整的設備來向全世界介紹臺中的產業跟它的量能，所以我們積極的爭取會展中心，目前為止臺中水湳國際會展中心的推動，它一定能夠成為串聯整個臺灣貿易業跟國際舞臺最重要的一個平臺，非常的重要。","所以本席要請教主委，在我們臺中水湳國際會展中心西側的展館案，一期的部分，臺中市政府非常的積極，而且進度超前喔！那二期的部分，經濟部也已經在2月5號發函給你們，也就是中央跟地方當然非常的團結，在這二期的部分，請問國發會目前的審查進度如何？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：謝謝委員的提問，我們大概3月5號……今天是3月6號嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：昨天？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，3月6號他們……因為昨天我在立法院，今天如果回去的話，我可能就會批……","已經批出去了、已經批出去了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：講正確的訊息給我們。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：批出去了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：批什麼內容呢？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：就是函復行政院。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：函復大院嘛！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，我們同意。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那就是最後的一哩路嘛！要趕快確認。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的內容審查的結果是什麼呢？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們原則同意啊！就是它的內容……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：原則同意什麼呢？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：就是它現在所有的相關規劃，我看一下……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你已經批出去，你不瞭解內容？你不能這麼糊里糊塗啊！這個是我們中部地區非常重大，而且是全國最重大，內容是什麼？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：它主要就是帶動中部地區發展，滿足中部地區的會展需求，跟臺中水湳的東側可以產生一些加乘效果……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：西側的計畫內容是什麼？預算多少？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：預算是60億左右，60.31億。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：預計實行的時間呢？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我看一下期程……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本來我還認為你來當部長應該是非常nice，你連這麼重大的一個案件，到了立法院的質詢臺，竟然沒有辦法回答，這太離譜啦！這個是我們全國舉目在看的啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，因為……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你是國發會主委耶！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，因為這個案子我始終就是支持的，我的態度……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不要答非所問！本席提問的是內容。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：內容的部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們既然審查過，我們跟經濟部、臺中市政府這麼努力，一定要經過你，然後我們才能夠提到行政院，最後一哩路，你不知道內容，浪費了我1分鐘的時間，要扣除。怎麼可以如此？太離譜了！國發會你要加油！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這麼重大的一個案子，你批出去，你不知內容！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為昨天……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我拜託你，這個務必要達陣成功，我們地方非常的重視。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：很抱歉啦！因為昨天我在立法院，是我們副主委……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在哪裡？是你批的，你這個回答沒有辦法有人接受。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是副主委代批出去的，因為我昨天在立法院，就是我們為了趕時間，由副主委代批出去了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要管控。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：經過你國發會出去的內容，你不知道，你的幕僚不會memo給你嗎？這麼重大的案子，我們地方這麼重視，難道你對於我們這個案子不重視嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：很重視啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：重視還不知道內容？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以為什麼要搶時間批出去就是這樣子。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：重視但是不知道內容喔？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為同事他們大概就會……審議過程當中我是支持的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：跟你爭執這個也沒有什麼意義，重點是我們要儘速完成，好嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為這是我們大家非常積極的需求，而且可以幫助我們整個的產業。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：同意。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席真的建議我們主委，你是管控，我經常說你是國家很重要的頭腦跟靈魂指揮者耶！重大的案件才要到你這裡。重大案件問了一問三不知，這個讓我會憂心啊！不忍再苛責，但是一定要鼓勵，你要去調整你們的腳步，你不知重大工程，這個是會扣分的，好不好？所以拜託，你昨天批出去，然後就給行政院嘛？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，副主委代批出去。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就給行政院嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對、對、對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是不是？你們……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：121年完成，剛才問的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們預估這樣上去行政院還要多久才回復回來？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為我們批了大概就是支持嘛！通常啦！通常行政院不會有太多的意見……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，那大概多久時間會回復回來？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為它還……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：以往啦！以往啦！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：要看不同的案子啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：以往啦！像這種案子你預估大概多久會回來？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：平均啦！平均是1個月啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那這個案子應該不用到1個月吧？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們來跟行政院溝通一下。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你幫我追，好不好？我們也會努力追。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我目的要請你追，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：全力支持的案子儘速完成，拖越慢我們的花費要更多，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我同意。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也就是我們臺中水湳國際會展中心西側的展館案，主委你全力支持，我們一起來追行政院儘速核定，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：幫助產業，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好的、好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請問，你們去年整體公建的預算是6,500億，你的達成率是96%；但是今年是7,800億，可是你的達成率反而是下降，你自己制定是95%，為什麼呢？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為我們還要看國內的胃納量，公建的供應能量，這是一個；第二個，我們今年的重點可能會放在公建的實質內容上，比如說它是不是用比較淨零的工法或是等等的情況來做一些要求，但是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為要淨零？但是我們整個政府是要加速淨零轉型的願景啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你竟然拿這個理由來告訴我你下降1%的原因，那這個你跟行政院在打架啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：也不是啦！就是務實地去估算，來努力啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，因為在這裡都錄音錄影，我還是希望你要務實地回答，你拿行政院在推的目標來打你反而下降的標準，這本席是不認同的喔！所以本席也希望應該要要求相關單位在2050年淨零排放這個長期必須要達成的目標，你必須要有分階段的KPI出來，它不僅是整個政策的引導，也要定期的來檢討達成的情況，你才能夠真正的去完成這樣子的具體執行嘛！對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你不能拿行政院的目標來打壓你自己下降的理由，這個會讓人嚇到啦！不能這樣嘛！對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們會盡力啦！這個95%是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你當然要盡力啊！在其位當然要盡力啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題，在這一頁國發會主委給我們的資料裡頭，你說國內穩定能源價格是以電價照顧民生，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：穩定物價，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：節約能源，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這三個原則來進行調控，如果到目前為止，現階段是不宜調漲電價的，這是您寫出來的，所以我希望不管你在什麼職位，還是要以這一個原則來照顧民眾，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：穩定物價、照顧民生、節約能源嘛，對不對？是吧？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個我們希望不管你到哪一個職務，都是以這三項為原則，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝你。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，謝謝主委。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔）：好，謝謝。","接下來我們請陳超明委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","林岱樺","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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這個務必要達成成功 我們地方非常的重視在哪裡 是你批的 你這個回答沒有辦法有人接受副主委代批出去的 因為我昨天在立法院"},{"start":368.752,"end":385.129,"text":"就是我們為了趕時間嘛,這個游副主委代表...你要管控!是!你要管控!是!經過你國發會出去的內容,你不知道,你的穆納波給你嗎?這麼重大的案子!我們地方這麼重視!"},{"start":387.698,"end":393.345,"text":"難道你對於我們這個案子不重視嗎?重視不知道內容因為同事他們大概就會跟你爭執這個也沒有什麼意義重點是我們要建樹完成好嗎?"},{"start":406.4,"end":428.91,"text":"因為這個我們都要非常積極的需求而可以幫助我們整個的產業所以本席建議我們主委真的你是管控我經常說你是國家很重要的頭腦跟靈魂指揮者重大的案件才要到你這裡重大案件問了一問三不知這個讓委會憂心啊"},{"start":433.41,"end":461.126,"text":"不能再苛責但是一定要鼓勵你要去調整你們的腳步重大工程你不知這個是會扣分的好不好所以拜託你昨天批出去然後就給行政院嗎這個副主委代批出去就給行政院嗎對對對是不是120年完成121年完成我剛才問了你們預估這樣行政院上去還要多久再回復回來"},{"start":463.189,"end":476.054,"text":"我們通常因為我們批了大概就是支持嘛通常啦通常會不會有太多的意見對那大概會多久時間會回覆回來因為他他還以往以往以往啊"},{"start":478.036,"end":478.857,"text":"臺中水南國際會展中心西側的展館案"},{"start":505.726,"end":513.291,"text":"主委你全力支持我們一起來追行政院競速合併好不好當駐產業對不對好不好接下來本席要請問你們去年這個整體公建的預算是6500億你的這個達成率是96%但是今年"},{"start":527.84,"end":530.241,"text":"國內的未納量、供應的能量這是一個。第二個,我們今年的重點可能會放在"},{"start":549.031,"end":557.909,"text":"公件實質上的內容上比如說他是不是用比較近鄰的公法啦或是等等的一些情況來做一些要求"},{"start":558.976,"end":560.998,"text":"對﹖因為在這裡都錄音錄影我還是希望你要務實的回答"},{"start":587.79,"end":602.978,"text":"：楊瓔"},{"start":602.978,"end":623.746,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":624.746,"end":644.076,"text":"你不能拿行政院的目標來打壓你自己下降的理由我們會盡力啦你當然要盡力啊 善期會當然要盡力啊最後一個議題喔就是說你現在這一頁裡頭所說的是以國防會主委"},{"start":649.555,"end":654.825,"text":"國內穩定能源價格你是以電價照顧民生對不對?"},{"start":656.99,"end":681.701,"text":"穩定物價、節約能源這三個原則來進行調控如果到目前為止現階段是不宜調漲這個電價的所以我希望這是您寫出來的不管你在什麼職位還是要以這個原則來照顧民眾穩定物價、照顧民生、節約能源"},{"start":683.582,"end":684.503,"text":"謝謝楊俊英委員"}]}},{"id":"149362","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149362","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f6123b2d911fdfc7890274675d1217385f8ba9b0039caa7a6970626aac8e0cc315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"10:38:10 - 10:47:23","影片長度":"00:09:13","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":553,"end_time":"2024-03-06T10:47:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:38:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":411,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（10時38分）請馮主委。"],["主席：主委請。"],["馮主任委員世寬：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：馮主委好。這是我第一次在國防外交委員會詢答，所以想先跟主委聊一些比較輕鬆一點的題目。馮主委，這幾個景點主委應該很熟悉，清境、武陵、福壽山這幾個都是退輔會在經營的高山農場，這幾年在舉辦櫻花季，我們看到其實相當成功，所以現在2月底、3月初是櫻花的季節剛好盛開，吸引非常、非常多的遊客。主委，你知道這三大高山農場每年有多少遊客嗎？"],["楊處長長政：報告委員，有176萬人。"],["洪委員申翰：清境是86萬、武陵42萬、福壽山26萬，在2023年總共是176萬，其實人數非常多。我去查了數據，這三大農場加起來，我們看到這兩年的營收數字都破了10億元，其實是很驚人的數字，這些高山農場其實都在臺灣非常重要的觀光勝地，大概也是退輔會非常重要的資產，主委同意嗎？主委，你知不知道這三大農場，我們發現它有很大的部分都位在山崩跟地滑地質敏感區，主委知不知道？"],["馮主任委員世寬：真的不十分清楚。"],["洪委員申翰：主委，我這邊跟你說明，三大高山農場在這些區域裡面，有些甚至是在大規模崩塌潛勢區，大規模崩塌潛勢區不是我講的，是農委會水保署講的，這都是相關的資料去套疊出來，發現這三大農場都在這些區域裡面，也有在土石流潛勢區的。所以主委這並不是新聞，我們剛剛看到的這些都是在經濟部地質調查中心或者是農業部水保署的資料，其實網路上面都查得到，也就是從這些資料的角度來看，這些地方都是很可能會發生山崩、土石流的地方。主委，從資料來看你同意嗎？"],["馮主任委員世寬：同意。"],["洪委員申翰：主委，我們現在看到這些在地質上面比較脆弱的地區，其實從1950年代到現在，發展很多高山的農業，包括果樹、茶樹等等，從國小、國中我們大概都知道，這些高山的農業很多對水土保持常常是有負面的影響跟衝擊，我也知道其實退輔會把很多的土地放領給農民，所以它變成私有地，退輔會也很難來管，但現在沒有辦法否認一個事情，退輔會的三大高山農場其實處在一種先天不足，它本來就在地質敏感，甚至崩塌、土石流潛勢的地方，後天又失調，因為它用了很多高山的農業，可能是超限利用的，水土保持是一個很大的衝擊。再接下來，剛剛說到遊客非常多啊！三大農場加起來，176萬。主委，在風險相對高這麼多的狀況之下，需要比較嚴格的防災規範，同不同意？同意嘛！","我們接下來就來看，退輔會其實不是沒有注意到這個問題，我們現在看到相關的成果，包括退輔會在地質敏感區要做土地開發的時候，必須先做地質調查安全評估，既有的舊建築也有進行耐震結構的補強，然後也有定期派員來巡察各設施的邊坡，從這些事情我們是有看到的，所以這部分我們可以給予肯定。可是主委我要跟你說，對於防災其實最重要的幾個觀念跟環節：第一個，平時需要監測；第二個，需要預警；第三個，要有災害應變的SOP。主委，我現在看到這三大農場在這三方面其實是滿弱的。主委，在監測跟預警或者是災害應變的部分，我們目前做了什麼？這幾個部分。"],["馮主任委員世寬：我這樣子回答您，我們對於您這一份報告，我們回去做一個檢討。"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["馮主任委員世寬：檢討完之後把書面報告呈現給您，作為我們改進的依據。"],["洪委員申翰：好，我這邊要提醒的是，基本上這些資料全部都是來自客觀的數據跟客觀的data，不是我直接講。其實我覺得滿幸運的，因為這三大農場到目前為止還沒有發生大型的天災，但在同樣類型的地質條件、同樣類型的客觀條件，比方說我們看到有些前車之鑑，像廬山溫泉就發生過很多次的土石流，所以這是不能夠輕忽的問題。主委，我現在先請教就平時監測的狀況，我們目前看到的狀況，我把我看到的、找出來的資料客觀地呈現，現在退輔會只有每季的監測，沒有即時監測，但是在這個地方我覺得恐怕是有必要進行即時監測的。現在農委會的水保局其實有針對雨量在做監測，這部分部會做分工，我覺得是很OK的事情。接下來就牽涉到預警的問題，我們跟農委會水保局討論了，如果發生了監測超標，也就是危險程度、風險提高的時候，他們目前通報的程序是什麼？他們第一個通報地方政府，第二個通知農場。可是我們現在看到，如果要發出警戒的話，現在他們警戒的通知名單裡面，我們沒有看到要通知退輔會喔！主委，你知不知道這個狀況？"],["馮主任委員世寬：這個我……"],["洪委員申翰：主委，我再跟你報告，他們說為什麼沒有要通知退輔會，因為退輔會沒有跟他們要求，請他們在這些資料上面提供警戒的資訊跟通知。"],["馮主任委員世寬：好，下去我們改進。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我的意思是說，前面有些事情，我知道退輔會有做，可是我們目前看起來這三大，監測、預警跟災害應變上面，包括災害應變我們看到都非常非常地欠缺SOP，就算應變上面，我們只有看到你們在報告上面寫說我們會疏散遊客，但到底該怎麼疏散？尤其是當我遊客的數量大到剛剛這個程度的時候，這恐怕是要有一個疏散的計畫在做事前的規劃，甚至是需要演練的部分，我看到現在反而是退輔會在災害應變上面，我覺得意識真的是有所不足，這是我想提醒主委的地方，可以嗎？"],["馮主任委員世寬：對，我列入改進。"],["洪委員申翰：好，主委，接下來一個事情，我想要在最後一個地方再提醒，我看到你們在今天的報告第19頁有寫到，你們提升服務的品質、強化營運的績效，尤其是你們會以生態保育、自然景觀跟環境保護為主軸，這是你們寫在你們報告裡面的。我剛剛除了災害的部分以外，我其實也想跟主委提醒一下，接下來在這些高山農場的未來狀況。我們很希望退輔會不要只以觀光的效益為考量，其實恐怕你也應該要注意到包括水土保持這些問題，如果要注意到、關注到水土保持問題的時候，其實有很多專家，這段時間，從我們來到外交國防以後，他們就來跟我們說，很希望退輔會在高山農場經營的時候，不要破壞原生的植被，要儘量種臺灣原生種的物種的作物。比方說如果要櫻花，那就是希望選擇像是我們的山櫻花，儘量保持原生的物種，其實這對於接下來預防災害或氣候變遷都有很大的助益、很大的效果。這部分我也希望能夠提醒我們退輔會或者是楊處長，然後在後續經營的時候應該用這個原則來思考，才比較能夠符合你們在報告上面寫的這個主軸，可以嗎？"],["馮主任委員世寬：謝謝委員。"],["洪委員申翰：好，我剛剛講的部分，我可不可以請主委2個月的時間，給我們一個澈底的盤點跟相關檢討應變的強化作為，可以嗎？"],["馮主任委員世寬：可以。"],["洪委員申翰：2個月。"],["馮主任委員世寬：是。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。災害風險韌性的評估報告到時候報委員會，委員本身以外，讓本會委員也知道，謝謝，謝謝洪申翰委員。","接下來進行詢答委員，陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷委員詢答結束後休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-2","speakers":["王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","徐巧芯","洪申翰","陳冠廷","馬文君","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130601_00010"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.60471875,"end":1.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.4778437500000003,"end":3.0853437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.219093750000003,"end":11.235968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.235968750000001,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.73784375,"end":13.615343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.38284375,"end":24.719093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.78659375,"end":25.613468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.558468750000003,"end":32.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.44346875,"end":39.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.282218750000006,"end":49.322843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.829093750000006,"end":53.322218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.03034375,"end":59.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.22409375,"end":60.46034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.337843750000005,"end":66.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.29471875,"end":73.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.70721875000001,"end":93.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.35784375,"end":106.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.37284375,"end":108.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","s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這個三大我們在這個監測跟預警或者是災害應變我們目前做了什麼這幾個部分這個我這樣子回答您我們對於您這個報告我們回去做一個檢討是檢討完之後把書面報告呈現給您"},{"start":298.628,"end":317.01,"text":"作為我們改進的依據我這邊要提醒的是因為基本上這些資料全部都是來自客觀的數據跟客觀的data不是我直接講所以包括我要說其實我覺得蠻幸運因為這三大農場到目前為止還沒有發生大型的天災但其實"},{"start":318.291,"end":346.8,"text":"同樣類型的地質條件同樣類型的客觀條件其實比方我們看到有些前車之鑒像廬山溫泉就發生過很多次的土石流所以這是不能夠輕忽的問題所以各位我想現在先請教其實就我們現在就平時的監測的狀況我們目前看到的狀況我把我看到的找出來的資料客觀的呈現現在這個退府會只有每季的監測但沒有即時監測"},{"start":348.649,"end":376.757,"text":"但其實在這個地方我覺得恐怕是有必要進行及時監測的但現在農委會的水保局其實有針對雨量在做監測這部分不會做分工我覺得是很OK的事情但接下來就牽涉到獄警的問題我們跟農委會的水保局討論了如果發生了監測超標也就是危險的程度風險提高的時候他們目前通報的程序是什麼他們第一個通報地方政府第二個這個"},{"start":379.11,"end":379.83,"text":"主委你知不知道這個狀況"},{"start":399.079,"end":417.821,"text":"主委我再跟你報告他們說為什麼沒有要通知退府會因為退府會沒有跟他們要求要請他們在這些資料上面提供警戒的資訊跟通知所以我的意思是說我知道前面有做的事情我知道退府會有做可是我們目前看起來這是三大"},{"start":420.147,"end":435.406,"text":"監測預警跟災害應變上面包括災害應變我們看到都非常非常的欠缺SOP就算應變上面我們只有看到你們在報告上面寫說我們會疏散遊客但到底該怎麼疏散尤其是當我遊客的數量大到剛剛這個程度的時候"},{"start":437.368,"end":461.798,"text":"這恐怕是要有一個疏散的計畫在做事前的規劃甚至是需要演練的部分我目前看到現在反而是退不回在這部分災害應變上面的我覺得意識真的是有所不足這是我想提醒諸位的地方可以嗎對我列入改進好所以接下來一個事情我想要在最後一個地方再提醒我看到你們在報告這次今天的報告第19頁有寫到"},{"start":464.079,"end":491.616,"text":"這個你們提升服務的品質強化營運的績效尤其是你們會以生態的保育自然景觀跟環境保護為主軸這是你們寫在你們報告裡面的那我剛剛除了災害的部分以外我其實也想跟主委提醒一下接下來我們在這些高山農場的未來的狀況我們很希望退輔會不要只以觀光的效益為考量其實恐怕你也應該要注意到包括水土保持這些問題所以當如果要注意到關注到水土保持的問題的時候"},{"start":493.237,"end":514.826,"text":"其實有很多專家一直這段時間從我們來到外交國防以後他們就來跟我們說很希望退伍會在我們高山農場的經營的時候不要破壞原生的植批要盡量種台灣原生種的這些物種的作物比方說如果要櫻花那就是希望比較選擇像是我們的山櫻花"},{"start":515.566,"end":515.906,"text":"謝謝委員我可不可以請主委"},{"start":541.013,"end":542.516,"text":"災害風險任性的評估報告到時候報委員會"}]}},{"id":"149361","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149361","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f314963331aabf5603ce99dc43694a3e0f8ba9b0039caa7a6089d1730ef7b1b9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:33:29 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Kacaw","羅智強","謝衣鳯","翁曉玲","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":77,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.83659375,"end":9.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.72534375,"end":16.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.26034375,"end":18.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.04471875,"end":51.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.533468750000004,"end":90.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.44284375000001,"end":94.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.96971875000001,"end":115.70909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.43471875,"end":173.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.36659375000002,"end":177.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.97784375,"end":193.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.56596875000002,"end":194.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.58284375000002,"end":218.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.15909375,"end":207.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.61284375000002,"end":224.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.97471875000002,"end":225.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.31221875000003,"end":276.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.94534375,"end":251.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.54471875,"end":292.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.39909375,"end":297.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.28409375,"end":301.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.88721875000005,"end":300.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.35096875,"end":303.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.32971875000004,"end":304.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.55721875,"end":307.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.98284375000003,"end":312.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.55221875,"end":310.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.62346875000003,"end":317.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.72471875,"end":314.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.00659375000004,"end":324.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.62159375000005,"end":329.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.06034375,"end":325.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.85346875000005,"end":325.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.43534375,"end":328.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.78534375000004,"end":349.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.09284375000004,"end":333.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.37909375000004,"end":338.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.62159375000005,"end":360.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.91971875,"end":362.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.97846875000005,"end":371.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.10784375000003,"end":380.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.24534375,"end":388.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.83096875,"end":389.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.38346875,"end":392.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.21846875,"end":395.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.57221875000005,"end":399.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.93471875,"end":416.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.03034375000004,"end":409.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.13159375000004,"end":409.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.42659375000005,"end":411.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.98284375000003,"end":419.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.56471875000005,"end":419.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.94846875,"end":420.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.97784375000003,"end":425.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.32284375,"end":468.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.86659375000005,"end":432.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.02096875,"end":469.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.03784375000004,"end":469.22346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.22346875000005,"end":469.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.24034375,"end":469.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.30784375,"end":469.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.69596875,"end":469.96596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.96596875000006,"end":470.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.03346875000005,"end":471.26534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.77596875,"end":474.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.97784375000003,"end":475.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.04534375000003,"end":476.96909375},{"speake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今天先關心消防員的問題來我們看一下這個圖我們全國的消防機關原額統計及服務人口比大家看一下"},{"start":20.277,"end":39.522,"text":"內政部消防署本身預算原額512人現有原額489人預算缺額23人我們再來看六都六都臺北市政府預算缺額59人新北市政府232人桃園市136人臺中市118人臺南224人高雄市政府52人"},{"start":48.644,"end":53.846,"text":"普遍的預算缺額超過很多服務人口比,六都超過1比1300以上新北市政府1比1662台南市政府1比1581高雄市政府1比1756"},{"start":78.934,"end":85.337,"text":"我自己居住的新竹縣市新竹市是1比1467新竹縣市1比1366都超過非常的多這個服務比超過那麼多對照國外的國家我們鄰近的國家新加坡是1比925日本的東京是1比731"},{"start":107.705,"end":109.427,"text":"美國兩城市紐約1比519芝加哥1比547"},{"start":116.502,"end":143.64,"text":"所以我們看我們的消防人力的配置還有我們的服務人數一個消防員的服務的人數比都超過這個我們鄰近的不管新加坡還有日本東京那跟這個美國來比也是差距非常的大所以我們的消防員可以說是很辛苦的所以才會普遍造成說我們的消防人員工時超時工作的情形就很普遍所以我是想問那個那個人事長"},{"start":147.903,"end":172.479,"text":"針對這種人員編制我剛才是沒提到你原來的人這個編制的緣額現在跟你說預算緣額如果說是以實際的編制緣額來比較的話那差距更大啦所以我想這種狀態對於這種消防人員或者對我們一般民眾來講這麼大的一個一個消防人員要面對服務的人口這麼大的一個狀態"},{"start":174.46,"end":193.321,"text":"這不是好事,大家都很辛苦的,所以這種情況之下,我們未來要如何的把這個我們消防人員的不管是我們的員額的一個增加,還有服務人口比如何來降低,總長這邊你們有沒有什麼樣的一個政策?"},{"start":195.532,"end":217.788,"text":"謝謝委員這個議題那首先我要說明一下消防人力不足的問題現在主要是集中在地方剛才那個 六都查很多 六都查很多而且有一個消防人員他的言而不受地方行政機關組織準則其實地方政協主要的原因就是"},{"start":222.012,"end":243.792,"text":"課上了以後他要經過一到兩年的訓練所以我們最近在協助消防署去從他南投那裡有一個消防訓練中心去增加他的訓練量能當他的訓練量能多的時候有更多的消防員可以去那裡訓練可以快速的彌補像最近這五年"},{"start":245.253,"end":264.263,"text":"我提供給地方政府的他的增援已經到3100位的他們的目標在117年的時候人均服務比大概會從1比1300降到1比1100那這個過程中現在的瓶頸在哪裡瓶頸就是他的訓練的期間等靠進來的"},{"start":269.446,"end":290.715,"text":"上一年我們為了這個問題我們有去拜會幾個機關結果發現有一個問題考入期率不是很理想所以為了這件事情我們也去協商考試院在考科方面各方面是不是可以有精進的地方因為你如果要訓練的量能不足就對了"},{"start":295.117,"end":298.039,"text":"所以我剛才跟委員報告的我們就是從兩個路徑來嘛第一個讓入企率"},{"start":324.699,"end":332.705,"text":"市長今天時間的關係你詳細用書面來做答覆給我本席還有我們司法委員會的各位委員我問你一下你剛才說我們入企力不足這我也很好奇為什麼這樣去年我們四等消防警察員員需求人數多少你知道嗎"},{"start":351.67,"end":357.432,"text":"955人人員需求報上來是955人入企人數只有351人除除缺了604人去年為什麼入企人數不足而入企的比例會那麼大"},{"start":383.274,"end":386.24,"text":"專業科目平均沒有達到入企標準所以刷掉很多人"},{"start":397.985,"end":420.196,"text":"阿這個我們就是因為這件事情所以我們已經有去跟考選部反映這樣的情況因為他那個專業分數的門檻你沒過你就沒辦法錄處嘛這是第一關嘛你錄取了以後第二關就要到訓練中心嘛那訓練中心我們希望說如果每年都這樣因為這個專業科目考不過上一年這個問題比較嚴重是所以你未來你要怎麼跟考試員來溝通"},{"start":427.352,"end":433.198,"text":"你後面要怎麼規劃?因為我看到你們有講,對考試規則來做修正,對公務人員特種考試,一般警察人員的考試規則,你要做修正,你是往這個方向來做。"},{"start":444.73,"end":450.776,"text":"113年考試院規劃提報考試院主管機關審議納入未來在招訊部分持續擴大到1000名消防人員你如何跟考試院溝通?"},{"start":469.042,"end":471.723,"text":"專業科目一直卡在那邊因為考試很難講現在已經有跟考選部溝通過了大概有一個共識大概從考試端去處理專業科目的問題"},{"start":490.484,"end":490.524,"text":"主席"},{"start":512.755,"end":517.876,"text":"考選部已經有同意我們的一個建議方向他們現在會去做這個方面的努力甚至我跟委員報告我們也有提出來今年是不是結構一次"},{"start":534.44,"end":536.001,"text":"市長我想這個部分真的要加油啦齁"},{"start":561.016,"end":565.52,"text":"現在關於資安的問題我看你的報告有寫人事總處跟數位發展部合作辦理資安長的共事營現在各級政府單位目前總共設立了幾位資安長我們各級政府單位都會有資安長的設立"},{"start":588.151,"end":600.2,"text":"二級、三級機關每一個機關都會由副首長或主任秘書擔任治安長所以副首長跟主秘?主秘跟副首長他們有沒有治安的專才?"},{"start":610.635,"end":626.104,"text":"委員你這個問題說真的那是沒什麼可能大家都有治安的專財可是他就是他有一個專責的副首長他去主責整個機關的一個治安業務"},{"start":627.503,"end":656.792,"text":"他本身就沒有具有資訊或資安的專業可是他的同仁他的同仁有資安專業啊統籌管轄要怎麼領導他底下一定會有資安專業的同仁去協助他這我了解他本身不具有我現在要請教你這個問題就是我們一直好奇奇怪啊資安長不管怎麼樣也要有對資安是有一定的專業你現在就內部由我們的副首長祖密來兼任"},{"start":658.123,"end":666.251,"text":"是否在體制上要做調整?是否未來你的資安長應該從民間企業或培訓一些對資安專業有能力的來擔任資安長比較適合?我覺得你應該做這種調整"},{"start":678.923,"end":703.369,"text":"我跟委員報告最近政府有培養很多資安長可是都被民間尤其金融單位還有高科技公司都挖走挖走去當他們的資安長所以我們現在就希望說既然他的名稱叫資安長他本身對於我們的資訊安全這部分他要有一定相關的專業知識否則你那個外行領導內行你是要怎麼領導"},{"start":707.143,"end":732.48,"text":"這問題是不是要改觀我答應委員我會把這個信息跟數位部來傳達因為資安現在資安最重要現在資安是我們現在政府單位最重要的一個職責現在網路攻擊無所不能無所不在所以我們政府的重要資料如何來加以保護這部分要加強了謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149360","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149360","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fbbd0c8431ab32cc78e47b20f39b04ac8f8ba9b0039caa7a60e5e4e1c0ebaa3885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:29:16 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體提到一個狀態就是有關於居家保姆的問題因為你要怎麼樣讓年輕人敢生願意生有很多很多的面向那對於整個保姆問題這邊我就直接提出一個主張就是說針對我們現在居家保姆我們一年的保姆獎助金是一萬兩千元對不對"},{"start":160.612,"end":165.6,"text":"有沒有可能就平均一個月才一千元有沒有可能提高到一個月兩千元"},{"start":168.766,"end":196.419,"text":"這個部分應該是衛福部嘛我們可以跟衛福部來做一些討論那這個方向怎麼樣提升保姆的人力這個我們也是覺得方向是好的方向那這個部分就請跟衛福部這邊好好去做溝通一下因為我覺得居家保姆的保姆獎助金其實真的偏低啦我們再看一個數字就50歲以上的保姆超過6成他跟我們老齡化的情況不相上下接下來"},{"start":197.119,"end":217.158,"text":"要願意做居家保姆的人越來越少所以我們必須要有更好的鼓勵機制那麼同時本席這邊也主張希望就是國發會除了說跟衛福部溝通居家保姆的每個月的獎助金提高之外的時候還能夠按照各縣市居家托育服務收費基準"},{"start":218.299,"end":241.387,"text":"來比照我們司法院民事執行他們所依據的每月必須生活費用去調整而不是固定每個月都一千全國到位臺北市也許應該要高一點因為整個生活必須高新竹市也許應該要高一點因為他的生活那個物價只追臺北市好不好我們針對這部分是不是能夠去做一個比照而不是"},{"start":242.367,"end":267.426,"text":"對於人工生殖的部分目前大家在推可能單身女性跟同性女同志的家庭共主家庭的時候是能夠去做人工生殖你支不支持?"},{"start":268.388,"end":290.169,"text":"我支持支持齁對你覺得這應該也是一個能夠去解決我們少子化問題的解決方式之一嘛對不對是OK齁好那我接下來再問一個齁就是之前在COVID-19的時候那我們國發會這邊有成立一個紓困資料上傳與比對平台對不對齁有有有"},{"start":290.849,"end":312.804,"text":"對,那上個月,去年8月的時候呢省基部出了一個資料就是針對我們這個紓困比對的平台裡面有65,871件產生了一些失誤那我們去追了現在還有19,687件還沒有追繳回來這個部分我們後續要怎麼樣處理?"},{"start":319.266,"end":332.393,"text":"應該還是要持續追繳啦因為當初是為了方便人民就是很急的時候我們就盡量寬鬆盡快的趕快把這個需求發出去嘛那如果有重複請領的狀況當然我們還是要追回來"},{"start":336.255,"end":354.44,"text":"這個部分因為時間有限我想說因為這個平台我們希望以後不會要用到可是如果再發生的時候我們希望不要發生因為你錢發出去更迷民眾了還要把民眾追回來民眾心裡一定圈圈叉叉一大堆一定很不爽然後同時會增加我們另外部會的工作量"},{"start":355.26,"end":372.282,"text":"如果前面做得好的時候就不會有後續追稿的問題因為當初是第一次發生所以我們盡快的那有那樣很快的這個平台建置嘛那我想如果有後續的話那個平台已經建置了所以他在比對的時候在施作發之前就可以先做比對"},{"start":374.204,"end":389.194,"text":"這個部分我們希望完善之後不要再發生這樣的事情徒增大家的困擾接下來就是針對桃竹苗大細股的一個計畫這個計畫我相信所有桃竹苗的民意代表都非常非常關切那裡面有幾個關鍵的數字"},{"start":391.956,"end":418.232,"text":"4年6兆產值14萬個工作人口然後有7個科學園區52個產業園區會增加42,250戶的社宅我覺得這是整個桃樹苗大細股這個方案當中我覺得幾個重要的數字那我想特別請教一下就是我們7個科學園區跟52個產業園區是不是都已經找好地方了"},{"start":419.012,"end":420.594,"text":"有多少在新竹市?"},{"start":426.547,"end":455.093,"text":"這個我可能要...我是不是會後再整理給那個委員那會後之後我就請主委這邊的時候再準備相關的資料到本辦公室來做一個說明那因為在這當中的時候還有特別提到了有關於社宅的部分我這邊提出一個數字在新竹市跟竹北這兩個地方就是新竹科學園區跟生育園區從民國88年到113這25年的時候大概增加7萬個工作人口"},{"start":456.053,"end":473.242,"text":"人口數大概增加25萬人所以我們預計這14萬人工作人口他到時候會怎麼分配是不是有一個具體的一個那個配置的一個計畫大致上同樣的也都會有一併我們大概的估算也會送給委員"},{"start":474.242,"end":495.16,"text":"稍後再給本辦公室一個很詳細的資料因為我看到在我們這大矽谷資料當中的裡面有一個特別提到了一個那個X計畫的部分它算是一個都會型的一個園區配套那之後還會不會有繼續在新竹市有類似X計畫的一個推動"},{"start":496.481,"end":522.216,"text":"會,在原來的周邊的地方會先開始好,那我們就之後希望因為在那個整個X計畫附近還有很多的特定農業區我們要如何去解決相關的問題我們到時候請那個主委再一併來那我最後再問一個狀態在大溪谷這計畫當中的時候它對於桃園新竹捷運道路規劃"},{"start":523.357,"end":526.159,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":543.277,"end":546.621,"text":"大溪谷計畫當中會不會把這兩條線再做更多的一個延伸?"},{"start":564.633,"end":564.693,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"149359","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149359","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f6a5d2d09dc70693f90274675d1217385f8ba9b0039caa7a607b297a3839f5c4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:27:27 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10:37:35","影片長度":"00:10:08","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":608,"end_time":"2024-03-06T10:37:35+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:27:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":322,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時27分）謝謝主席，麻煩主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["馮主任委員世寬：召委早安。"],["王委員定宇：主委，我們兩個應該是在這個空間相處最久的人，很高興再次見面，今天是我們這個會期也是這一屆的第1次委員會，我有一些問題剛好延續，還好您在，我看各位處長大概也都是老面孔，所以一些舊問題我們可以持續追蹤。在業務報告裡面，我常常重視的是我們安置軍士官兵的比例，特別是在民間像「欣」字頭的天然氣公司、欣欣客運等等，我們持股比例多少，我們就儘量做到安置軍士官兵的比例接近，權責相符、福利相符。第二個，這個安置的福利以往可能中高階居多數，現在職業軍人包含職業兵越來越多，第一類、第二類退伍軍人增加，我們希望多幫助這一些還很年輕，他可能10年就退了，或者20年退也不過四十來歲，所以對基層中低階官士兵的安置，我們也希望提高人數，我會比較注重這兩個數字。","所以第一個，我特別挑出「欣彰」，我們在多次委員會討論安置比例的問題，目前我把所有數字看了一遍，好像只有欣彰最難配合，在退輔會持股比例34.08%，欣彰目前安置的我們退伍軍人是17.35%，大概只有一半，跟其他欣字輩的天然氣公司及其他的事業單位，差距有一段，有相當的距離。我可不可以請教一下，為什麼欣彰天然氣輔導我們的退伍軍人就業特別低，原因是什麼？"],["楊處長長政：委員好，我是事業管理處處長楊長政。"],["王委員定宇：請說。"],["楊處長長政：我先跟您回答這個問題，事實上我們也非常重視這個問題，因為我們整體的比例，其實我們總共33%，現在已經42%的安置率了，但是欣彰公司經過我們3年的努力其實有成長，雖然它成長比較少一點……"],["王委員定宇：那個成長在誤差值範圍內。"],["楊處長長政：是，但是我們在持續努力，除了……"],["王委員定宇：為什麼它特別低？你剛才講到一點，你們在協助我們退伍弟兄姐妹們就業其實是成長，百分之三十多到百分之四十多，不錯喔！"],["楊處長長政：是。"],["王委員定宇：你的不錯，這個又特別低，那麼它的問題就特別突兀嘛！"],["楊處長長政：其實我可以更好，但是因為被它拉下來，所以表現比較……"],["王委員定宇：為什麼它拉下你們，原因在哪裡？"],["楊處長長政：最主要原因，我跟委員報告，事實上，我們不只一次去拜訪過朱河村董事長……"],["王委員定宇：因為當時李文忠副主委在答詢這個議題時，也說到如果真的拉不上來，開董事會，他要親自帶隊去，好好問一下嘛！"],["楊處長長政：是。"],["王委員定宇：這一家公司到底有什麼問題？"],["楊處長長政：我們去拜訪朱河村董事長，其實它最主要的問題，為什麼成長速度這麼慢，是因為這3年來員工流動的比例實在是太少了，像這3年來，我們雖然只進步了5%，5%而已，實際占他們員工新進用的人數已經是絕大部分……"],["王委員定宇：你講的理由是，它的舊員工沒人走，所以我就沒辦法安置新人進去？"],["楊處長長政：是。"],["王委員定宇：我如果查起來不是這樣子怎麼辦？"],["楊處長長政：他們跟我回報的狀況是這個樣子。"],["王委員定宇：你們有董事在裡面。"],["楊處長長政：對，所以……"],["王委員定宇：你們可以看它的業務報告，人事進用你看得到，怎麼它講就算數？"],["楊處長長政：報告委員，所以為了改善這個狀況，我們特別派了當地彰化地區榮服處處長去擔任那個公司的董事……"],["王委員定宇：我坦白講，不要形塑成好像欣彰特別不喜歡進用退伍軍人，如果這個名字標上去，它會倒大楣，這不好，你懂我意思嗎？"],["楊處長長政：報告委員，不會！"],["王委員定宇：我不相信這樣子，但是我希望把它查明，因為它很突兀，它用的就特別少。"],["楊處長長政：我瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：這是欣彰的問題。"],["楊處長長政：是。"],["王委員定宇：第二個，我接受也尊重剛才馮主委講的，我們對外交的事務有時候講太細，反而推不動。我們今年國際退伍軍人事務交流從原來的預算627萬5,000元，提升到1,127萬6,000元，成長500萬1,000元，有成長，為什麼會成長這500萬？"],["曹處長東發：向委員報告，最主要就是我們成長兩個部分，第一個就是機票，另外我們……"],["王委員定宇：因為機票漲價？"],["曹處長東發：機票漲價。"],["王委員定宇：好，第二個？"],["曹處長東發：第二個就是國內接待的一些相關事務。"],["王委員定宇：這兩個都是對內跟成本的增加，我們對外沒有新計畫？"],["曹處長東發：對外有，但是委員，剛剛主委有指示……"],["王委員定宇：對外有新計畫？"],["曹處長東發：有新計畫。"],["王委員定宇：剛才主委講的部分，我就不會超過他的程度，剛才講要到歐洲，歐洲是馮主委要去，還是副主委要去？"],["曹處長東發：我們的長官會去。"],["王委員定宇：你的長官就只有主委跟副主委啊！你的長官還有別人啊？"],["馮主任委員世寬：我想讓副主委去，因為有些國家對於上將還當過部長的，他們會有一點點……"],["王委員定宇：上將當過部長的，現在有一個在當某一國的總統，那一國名字，我怎麼不好意思講出來，因為我怕你們要去，你懂我意思嗎？其實你去，對北約等等，有另外一個層次的交流，但是你指派副主委，我想應該是李文忠副主委要去，我沒有意見，我覺得這是退輔會國際交流很好，能成最重要。那麼去哪些國家，我們就不便揭露了，但這是不是我們退輔會史上第一次跟歐洲的退伍軍人相關單位進行交流？"],["馮主任委員世寬：是的。"],["王委員定宇：這幾十年來的第一次？這不容易喔！那是我們主動伸手去接觸的，還是接受邀請？"],["馮主任委員世寬：主動接觸。"],["王委員定宇：然後他們邀請？你認為受阻的機會大不大？"],["馮主任委員世寬：大。"],["王委員定宇：因為今天我們都還沒問你，在記者問的時候，你已經講要去歐洲了嘛，歐洲的國家有退伍軍人協會的，我坦白講，也沒那麼多啦！算一算，大概算得出來。如果中共阻撓導致不能成行，我覺得中國把自己這個大國做小了，退伍軍人的交流，你去阻礙什麼？全世界的退伍軍人都是朋友嘛！所以我們到美國跟退伍軍人協會多好，我們現在甚至於派了1位退伍的少將、退伍的上校常駐華府，何必對歐洲這個部分阻撓？坦白講，請他們想得開，當你會尊重別人存在，你這個國家才值得尊重。目前你預估歐洲行可能會有一些阻礙，所以我就不問你什麼時候要去了，好不好？不要談什麼時候要去，我們希望去了之後，是不是向本會提一個專報，這應該沒問題？"],["馮主任委員世寬：會的。"],["王委員定宇：好，等你們回來。","接下來，我就教退輔會的產訓合作專班，一樣，我先給你們肯定，我一直在追這個數據，你看2018年，你們產訓專班參訓8人，畢業7人，我辦了一個專案，只有8個參加，7個退伍，而且只能去客運公司上班，當時我們就提出行業這麼多，我們的訓練太少，經過2018年，到現在2023年、到2024年，你的人數其實是一直跳躍式成長，我給你們肯定。而行業別，我過去最不喜歡也不能接受的，誰說退伍軍人只能當保全，退伍軍人有很多專業，退伍軍人在軍中學的東西很多是可以應用的，所以你們到2022年開始應用在客運、海運、天然氣、食品、鋼鐵、光電一直往下走，這是好事，我現在只問一個問題，這叫作產訓嘛！"],["池處長玉蘭：是！"],["王委員定宇：所以在 2024 年訓260人，對於要進到產業界，他們的就業安排目前是幾比幾？勞動部就服中心會算每一個訓練出來的人有3個工作，叫1比3；有1.2個工作，叫1比1.2。你們訓練出來的人，大概有多少個就業機會？"],["池處長玉蘭：召委好！就學就業處處長池玉蘭跟您報告。針對您剛剛所垂詢的問題，我們輔導會所推的產訓合作跟勞動部的方案是不一樣，簡單來講，我今天跟一個企業界已經找好了，優質的企業……"],["王委員定宇：因為時間的關係，我簡單地問你。"],["池處長玉蘭：好！"],["王委員定宇：我先詢問、找好了需求……"],["池處長玉蘭：是，找好了需求。"],["王委員定宇：然後這邊需工260，我這邊就訓練260。你們是這樣作業的嗎？"],["池處長玉蘭：不是這樣子，因為他們會提出一個職缺的數量，我們去推薦有意願報名的，經過它面試以後，它也同意了，這個人數就是……"],["王委員定宇：它已經要錄取了。"],["池處長玉蘭：只要通過這個測驗、訓練合格，它一定要給我錄取。"],["王委員定宇：我想把程序弄懂，你們變成要去拜訪公司行號，這邊需要五個員工，分別需要光電、機械類似這樣子，你們就錄取這樣的人數來進行訓練，訓練考核合格它一定要進用。"],["池處長玉蘭：我們推薦人數會比較多，讓它先去做面試。"],["王委員定宇：對啊，所以你們應該會進用比較多一點人，大概是幾比幾？"],["池處長玉蘭：比如說職缺就是要五個，但是我會推薦比較多的人數讓它先去做面試，面試合格以後讓他去受訓。"],["王委員定宇：你們現在媒合率達到百分之多少？"],["池處長玉蘭：100%。我們這個是一定訓練……"],["王委員定宇：在聘用之後，我們有沒有像過去給予每個月薪資補貼1萬？"],["池處長玉蘭：就是我們促進穩定就業津貼，是！他可以領。"],["王委員定宇：領一年嗎？"],["池處長玉蘭：對！領一年。"],["王委員定宇：你們有沒有追蹤一年後還在任的？剛才我好像聽主委有講，在任的還達到百分之八十幾。"],["池處長玉蘭：我們的統計是滿一年以後，他還在繼續留任原公司……"],["王委員定宇：就沒有這個補助、沒有就業安定基金了。"],["池處長玉蘭：90.63。"],["王委員定宇：90.63？"],["池處長玉蘭：是！"],["王委員定宇：好，希望你們更精進，讓我們的退伍軍人就業環境更好。謝謝主委、謝謝處長。"],["池處長玉蘭：是，謝謝召委。"],["主席（王委員定宇）：在陳冠廷委員詢答後，本會休息5分鐘。","現在進行詢答委員洪申翰委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-2","speakers":["王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","徐巧芯","洪申翰","陳冠廷","馬文君","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130601_00010"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.52034375,"end":2.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.58721875,"end":5.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.965968750000002,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.82659375,"end":15.015968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.62346875,"end":25.832843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.035343750000003,"end":31.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.26221875,"end":38.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.556593750000005,"end":80.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.41909375,"end":87.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.38846875,"end":101.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.32721875,"end":119.21909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.30346875000001,"end":119.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.01221875,"end":139.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.46346875,"end":122.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.75221875,"end":152.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.77284375000002,"end":140.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.55721875,"end":142.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.36159375,"end":152.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.76659375,"end":153.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.28534375,"end":156.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.90096875,"end":165.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.73596875,"end":161.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.86159375,"end":165.89534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.89534375000002,"end":167.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.02596875,"end":175.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.96971875,"end":194.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.02596875,"end":196.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.89471875,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.97846875000002,"end":201.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.72096875000003,"end":201.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.73784375000002,"end":202.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.95284375,"end":208.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.45846875,"end":207.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.36971875,"end":212.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.31034375000002,"end":210.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.79096875000002,"end":217.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.63409375,"end":223.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.03409375,"end":224.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.54846875,"end":229.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.49721875,"end":241.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.02846875,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.18846875000003,"end":234.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.91721875000002,"end":246.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.92909375000002,"end":248.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.80221875,"end":250.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.38846875000002,"end":262.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.41596875,"end":265.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.53346875,"end":272.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.18659375000004,"end":279.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.96284375,"end":274.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.88659375000003,"end":276.02159375},{"speake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那他的問題就特別突兀嘛"},{"start":156.92,"end":160.124,"text":"李文宗副主委也在這邊答詢這個議題說到如果真的拉不上來開董事會他要親自帶隊去好問一下"},{"start":175.024,"end":200.611,"text":"這一個家公司到底有什麼問題我們去拜訪朱和聲董事長其實他最主要的問題為什麼成長速度這麼慢是因為這三年來員工流動的比例實在是太少了像這三年來我們雖然只進步了5%5%而已只是占他們員工新進用的人數已經是絕大部分你想的理由是他的舊員工沒人走所以我就沒辦法安置新人進去那我如果查起來不是這樣子怎麼辦當然"},{"start":202.992,"end":224.442,"text":"他們跟我回報的狀況是這個樣子是這個樣子你們有董事在裡面你們可以看他的業務報告人事機用你看得到怎麼他講就算數報告委員所以說為了改善這個狀況我們特別派了當地的彰化地區的榮福樹處長去擔任那個公司的董事我坦白講不要形塑好像新章"},{"start":225.612,"end":229.794,"text":"我接受也尊重剛才我們馮主委講的我們對外交的失誤有時候講太細反而推不動"},{"start":249.562,"end":260.369,"text":"那我們今年國際退伍軍人事務交流從原來的預算627萬5千元提升到1127萬6千元成長500萬1千元有成長那為什麼會有成長這500萬向委員報告最主要就是我們成長兩個部分第一個是機票那另外我們剛剛因為機票漲價機票漲價第二個就是國內接待的一些相關事務"},{"start":279.451,"end":279.851,"text":"我想讓副主委去"},{"start":309.332,"end":333.85,"text":"因為有些國家對於上將還當過部長的他們會有一點點你上將當過部長的現在有一個在當某一國的總統那一國名字我不好意思講出來因為我怕你們要去你懂我意思嗎其實你去對北約或者有另外一個層次的交流但是你指派副主委我想應該是李文忠副主委要去"},{"start":335.29,"end":335.99,"text":"主動接觸然後他們邀請"},{"start":362.079,"end":388.652,"text":"那你認為受阻的機會大不大大因為你今天我們都還沒問你在記者問的時候你已經講要去歐洲了嘛那歐洲的國家有退伍軍人協會的齁我坦白講也沒那麼多啦大概可以算一算算得出來啦齁如果中共阻撓導致不能成行我覺得中國把自己這個大國做小了退伍軍人的交流你去阻礙什麼全世界的退伍軍人都是朋友嘛"},{"start":389.434,"end":389.854,"text":"王定宇"},{"start":407.233,"end":427.699,"text":"歐洲型可能會有一些阻礙所以我就不問你什麼時候要去了好不好就不要談什麼時候要去我們希望去了之後是不是向本會提一個專報這應該沒問題會的好等你們回來好接下來我要就叫退府會的產訓合作專班一樣這個我先給你們肯定我一直在追這個數據你看2018年你們產訓專班參訓8人畢業7個"},{"start":434.498,"end":461.288,"text":"我辦了一個專案只有8個參加7個退伍而且只能去客運公司上班當時我們就提出來說行業這麼多我們的訓練太少經過2018年到現在2023到2024你的人數其實是一直跳躍是成長我給你們肯定那行業別我過去最不喜歡也不能接受就是誰說退伍軍人只能當保全退伍軍人很多專業"},{"start":463.356,"end":485.838,"text":"退伍軍人在軍中學的很多可以應用的所以你們到2022年開始應用在客運海運天然氣食品鋼鐵光電一直往下走這好事我現在只問一個問題你們這叫做產訓嘛所以2024年訓260人那產業就是說我要進到產業界他們的就業安排目前幾比幾"},{"start":488.159,"end":496.827,"text":"那個勞動部的救福中心會算每一個訓練出來的人有3個工作叫1比3有1.2個工作叫1比1.2你訓練出來的人大概有多少就業機會"},{"start":499.042,"end":504.107,"text":"稍微好好跟您報告就學界會處處長齊玉蘭而針對您剛所追尋的問題我們的這個補導會所推的產訓合作跟勞動部的方案是不一樣我們簡單來講我今天是這個跟了一個企業界已經找好了優質企業時間我簡單問你就是我先詢問找好的需求是找好的需求這邊虛工260我這邊就訓練260是你們是這樣作業的嗎"},{"start":525.146,"end":537.196,"text":"不是這樣子,因為他們會提出一個職缺的數量,那我們去推薦有意願報名的,我們就是經過他面試以後,他也同意了我這個人數呢,他只要通過這個測驗,訓練合格,他一定要給我入局"},{"start":543.081,"end":563.497,"text":"所以我把程序弄懂是你們變成要去拜訪公司行號是那我這邊需要5個員工分別需要光電機械類似這樣子那你們就錄取這樣的人數來進行訓練訓練考核合格他一定要禁用我們推薦人數會比較多讓他先去做面試對所以你應該會禁用比較多一點嘛大概幾比幾但是他的5"},{"start":564.438,"end":578.79,"text":"呃就是比如說他職缺就是要5個那但是我會推薦比較多的一個數目讓他先去做面試面試他合格以後讓他去受訓你們現在媒合率達到百分之多少百分之一百百分之一百那他們聘用之後我們有沒有像過去給予每個月薪資補貼一萬"},{"start":580.891,"end":597.98,"text":"就是我們促進穩定就業津貼是他可以領領一年嗎對領一年你們有沒有追蹤一年後還在任的剛才我好像聽主委有講在任的還達到百分之八十幾我們的統計是就是一滿一年以後他還在繼續留任的公司90.6390.63好這個我們繼續希望更精進讓我們的退伍軍人就業環境更好謝謝主委謝謝處長"}]}},{"id":"149358","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149358","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f0e307b562b47194f1e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a640fcd7a1e29732485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"10:25:00 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10:37:51","影片長度":"00:12:51","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":771,"end_time":"2024-03-06T10:37:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:25:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":623,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時25分）主席好，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["許部長銘春：廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：許部長你好。我想要請教我們的許部長，你知不知道你就任至今已經2,200天了？是我們史上任期最長的部長，恭喜你。我想要請問，你回顧這兩千多天的日子，你覺得在你的任內，勞動部最急切還需要加把勁的業務有哪一些？你可不可以舉例三項給我？"],["許部長銘春：譬如勞保年金財務問題的解決，我想這是大家所關注的。第二個，目前大家對移工失聯的問題，希望能夠有效的解決，我覺得這也是重大的議題之一。第三個，在薪資方面能夠持續提升，我覺得這個部分，勞動部因為有針對弱勢邊際勞工，最低工資法也通過了，相信未來透過新法律的機制，能夠讓邊際勞工的照顧更周全。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，謝謝部長，我想要請問你會不會繼續督軍，在520之後繼續負起責任來往前推動？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我目前就是把我目前的工作做好，希望在520之後能夠順利交給新任的部長。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你覺得不想要再續任了？"],["許部長銘春：我覺得應該可以讓更多長才來發揮啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：更多長才來發揮，好。如果部長沒有要繼續擔任部長的話，我們祝福你，希望你可以轉職成功，在你任內，你很成功地推動了中高齡就業服務機制，你會不會使用這個機制去找你的新工作？"],["許部長銘春：我覺得這也是一個很好的想法，不過我本身有專業還好啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你比較特別，你本身有專業還好，因為也有在外傳你會投……"],["許部長銘春：我覺得其實如果要跨業，我如果不想回到我的專業，未來若跨業，我會來善用這個。"],["廖委員偉翔：你會來善用這個，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：可不可以不要用中高齡，我覺得我是壯世代。"],["廖委員偉翔：很好，我也喜歡壯世代喔！請問我們壯世代的部長，你會考慮投入選舉嗎？"],["許部長銘春：目前沒有這個規劃。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有這個規劃？"],["許部長銘春：就如我剛剛說的，我把我現在的工作做好，我一向都是這樣。"],["廖委員偉翔：OK，好，因為有傳聞是這樣，沒關係，我們今天趕快進入到正題。有關於去年11月16號的時候，勞動部有貼文表示，除了假訊息那件事情之外，有一句話很特別，叫做勞動部深知目前社會對於印度開放移工來源還是有疑慮，所以你們說那個時候尚未簽署，也在草擬之中，可是過了短短大概3個月的時間你們就簽署了。請問部長，你覺得有解決這個疑慮嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實疑慮的部分我們還是會……"],["廖委員偉翔：請問你覺得有解決疑慮嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有一些有理解，可能有一些部分還需要我們再做溝通跟說明。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以還沒有解決，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：我不敢說，因為問題一定會持續啦！有些人理解，有些人不理解，不理解的部分我們還是要持續去努力。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，為什麼你們自己也知道還有不理解的部分，卻要這麼急著簽MOU呢？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們的MOU是一個架構，就是雙方就這個勞務合作的意向做簽署……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，部長，沒問題……"],["許部長銘春：至於後面實質的，就像剛剛委員……"],["廖委員偉翔：是，部長，我知道，剛剛前面有幾位委員也提過，請問你們在做這件事情之前，有沒有什麼評估的報告和方案，或是評估相關的作業流程報告？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們業務單位在……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有？有？"],["許部長銘春：他們有做一些資訊的搜集，包括評估都有。"],["廖委員偉翔：有做資訊的搜集，那你們有做一個報告嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告……"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，這一次我們跟印度洽商，大概主要的評估資訊是從像外交部還有包含印度駐臺北……"],["廖委員偉翔：是，好……"],["蔡署長孟良：這些相關資訊，我們把它……"],["廖委員偉翔：我要打斷您，抱歉，我想要打斷您，是因為其實你們有，只是你不知道啊！部長，我上網查了一下，你們官方的報告裡面有一個106年外勞來源國輸出政策走向及我國因應對策的官方評估，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：有嘛！對不對？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們剛剛是忘記了這件事？"],["許部長銘春：不是忘記，我本來以為是說這次有沒有特別寫報告。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以這是你們的……"],["許部長銘春：因為我們……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，沒關係，我直接請問，因為你們這段時間新的報告等於沒做嘛！最新的一份是這個嘛！我網路上查到你們官方有的報告是這一份，請問這是唯一的決策依據嗎？不是？是？"],["許部長銘春：是依據之一啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：依據之一？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：裡面有提到，包含3月4號的這個新聞有提到，印度是一個我們可以用的來源國，因為依照目前的政經局勢，以及可能印度受到中國大陸的干預比較少，然後低於貧窮線的人口數也眾多，加上跟菲律賓相同，多數人可以用英語溝通，而且數理程度佳，所以可以做為考慮的對象。請問您是不是認同報告的這個部分？認同嗎？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：認同，對不對？部長請回答。"],["許部長銘春：認同。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是同一份報告裡面也有專家反饋，他們認為印度比較不推薦，因為他們的家族性常會使一次一大群人一起來，而且語言跟文化差異性也較高。請問部長，你認同嗎？認同或不認同？"],["許部長銘春：這個就是他們的一個比較的意見嘛！他們就是……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你認同這個概念嗎？你認同還是不認同？"],["許部長銘春：我覺得這是專家的報告，我們尊重啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：這裡也有提到，印度跟臺灣的關係不錯，印度的種族很多，可能要考慮哪一個種族適合臺灣。我想要請問部長，你們有評估過哪一個種族適合臺灣嗎？沒有評估？有還是沒有評估？有評估嗎？沒有評估？"],["許部長銘春：沒有。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有評估？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["蔡署長孟良：對，委員，我們其實目前並不是以種族來考慮勞務合作，主要是對於未來它的條件、技術相關的是不是符合……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以我剛剛問部長，其實你們沒有評估過，對不對？代表這份報告等於有做跟沒有做也是……這是參考依據，好，沒關係。再來，你們報告裡面也有提到，建議鎖定印度某些區域引進，如東北方的阿薩姆或周遭的六個省，信仰基督且英文流利。請問你認同還是不認同？部長，您認同？所以你部分有認同，部分不認同這個決議？"],["許部長銘春：不是，我就尊重這個報告，不能說……"],["廖委員偉翔：你尊重，但是尊重也有認同和不認同嘛！因為我記得你也有提到，你們會優先考量從那個部分來引進，對嗎？"],["許部長銘春：當初是說未來我們會……"],["廖委員偉翔：你有優先考量嘛！對不對？"],["許部長銘春：優先考量啦！他們就是有……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，所以其實你們有這個評估報告，可是你不太確定，可是你也是部分的採用啦！"],["許部長銘春：我們有這個報告啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：對，再者，裡面也有提到，印度、斯里蘭卡進入到家庭類勞工比較困難，在語言溝通上有困難，同時應該要教育國人與回教徒及印度教徒的相處方式。請問你們有相關的配套，或是你們有相關要執行的方向嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為印度的語言確實有印度文跟相關的語系，所以說未來……"],["廖委員偉翔：你們有沒有這個方向的準備？"],["蔡署長孟良：未來在討論的時候，其實我們在跟對方討論的時候……"],["廖委員偉翔：主席再給我兩分鐘，謝謝。"],["蔡署長孟良：因為它裡面有英文能力的也是很多，未來會從這裡面優先考慮。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，沒關係。我要告訴部長的是，其實你們也知道社會的疑慮並沒有解除，所以這個應該是你們要努力的方向，因為現在我們在民間有接受到非常多的民眾對於這件事情的確有疑慮，我們民意代表反映疑慮告訴你。剛剛你們所有的報告裡面有包含種族、包含區域等等，其實我要提醒部長要小心，不要變成人權笑話，因為您昨天也才說印度移工膚色相近的部分，遭到藍綠都共同譴責，所以要請部長小心，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：我們想要討論的事情是，為什麼要有移工？常常講的就是缺工要如何解。可是我們政府往往一律在思考的都是治標的問題，就只是開放移工，好像就可以解決缺工，可是治本也沒有做好。我們現在遇到很大的問題是逃逸的移工數量暴增，這個應該跟印度移工的開放比較沒有關係吧！可是從部長2018年就任到現在，逃逸移工從五萬多人變成八萬多人，這樣的失聯移工數是飆升的，而你們的報告裡面卻很驕傲的說，今年的新增人數比上一年少了九千多，所以很棒。可是事實上是越來越多的，對不對？部長。"],["許部長銘春：委員，你聽我說，最近人數為什麼會暴增？其實主要是三年的疫情。"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道，你的報告裡面有寫。"],["許部長銘春：對，失聯，但是我跟委員報告……"],["廖委員偉翔：但是，抱歉部長。"],["許部長銘春：我們112有比110……"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道，我都有看到數據。"],["許部長銘春：我們會持續努力。"],["廖委員偉翔：我有認真讀你的東西，但是你剛剛自己也有講到，你有三件很重要的事情要繼續努力，其中一項就是這個嘛。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我要提出來告訴你，其實你並沒有做好，你應該要再繼續努力，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：勞動部會繼續努力。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，但是你缺工也沒有解決嘛，所以你移工跟缺工的部分，缺工還是維持在高檔，有23萬。"],["許部長銘春：缺工的問題……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我知道有各種層面，我只是要提醒你這個數字，您剛剛在前面沒有做好。"],["許部長銘春：現在人口老化、少子化，我們會來解決。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我剛剛講的是，你可以看到，現在社會上還是有非常多的人對於印度移工有疑慮，可是你卻不斷地針對移工的部分在做事情，但是你根本都沒有解決，譬如我們都知道在地方上有很多逃逸或失聯的移工，因為非法的黑工收入更優渥，所以他就會逃跑，包含很多建築工的量能不足，它還是偷用了失聯移工，結果失聯移工1天的薪水都比合法移工還要高，最後都被洗去當失聯移工，對不對？這是事實吧！這個是很接地氣的部分，甚至很多農業的部分，你們也不敢真的去抓，對不對？譬如，有一些農業的需求，因為沒有年輕人，所以他必須用移工，然後他的淡旺季分配不明顯，所以導致很多人臨時去當了移工，他們也願意僱用移工，然後當你們要去稽查的時候，還會特別通知在地的里長說要來稽查囉，大家當天不要出現，這都是在地方上和農業上真正發生的事情，你有沒有意識到這樣的狀況，部長？"],["許部長銘春：剛剛委員講得很對，其實很多是經濟因素，所以像家庭看護工，我們也把他的薪資從1萬7,000調到2萬。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以……"],["許部長銘春：我們未來也會針對非法僱用、非法仲介去加重它的罰則，這個都是要來遏止這些失聯的……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我要告訴部長的事情是，這是一個結構性的問題，你應該要從整個大結構配合產業的需求去通盤地考量。"],["許部長銘春：對，包括缺口。"],["廖委員偉翔：而不是頭痛醫頭，腳痛醫腳。"],["許部長銘春：是，該開放的，我們就開放，像過去民間營造業很多黑工，所以我們現在民間的營造業也開了1萬5,000。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我希望部長……"],["許部長銘春：農業移工不足的部分，我也把人數增加。"],["廖委員偉翔：關於你們要做什麼，這個部分你可以事後再補充給我。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：我想要提醒部長的是，今天就是告訴你說疑慮沒有解決，然後你們的移工政策和勞動力的政策沒有通盤地檢討。部長，在520之前希望你可以再大破大立地把該做的事情做好，解決這個產業結構性的問題，可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員的質詢。","我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時37分）","繼續開會（10時43分）"],["主席：好，我們現在開始開會。","接下來請黃秀芳委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度\n移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.687843750000003,"end":10.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.763468750000001,"end":11.590343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.89346875,"end":16.450343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.36159375,"end":22.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.09909375,"end":23.402843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.12846875,"end":24.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.86221875,"end":33.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.42221875,"end":37.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.28659375,"end":39.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.39596875,"end":52.377218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.29659375000001,"end":55.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.853468750000005,"end":62.586593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.025343750000005,"end":65.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.53971875,"end":71.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.66534375,"end":76.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.62659375,"end":80.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.92971875,"end":96.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.27346875,"end":95.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.02846875,"end":103.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.30159375000001,"end":105.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.51221875,"end":112.04721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.04721875000001,"end":114.84846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.96221875,"end":119.65784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.43846875000001,"end":123.87659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.18034375,"end":135.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.51596875,"end":140.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.32534375,"end":142.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.74284375000002,"end":149.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.59846875000002,"end":154.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.31971875000002,"end":150.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.97721875000002,"end":157.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.05284375000002,"end":159.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.28034375000001,"end":166.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.00909375,"end":173.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.86534375000002,"end":169.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.62846875000002,"end":178.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.88471875000002,"end":204.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.79221875000002,"end":206.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.69909375,"end":209.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.28096875,"end":210.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.82909375000003,"end":218.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.64284375000003,"end":217.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.90409375000002,"end":217.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.05159375000002,"end":229.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.51534375000003,"end":221.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.54909375000003,"end":222.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.05534375000002,"end":222.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.06284375,"end":233.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.74971875000003,"end":237.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.52971875000003,"end":240.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.93846875000003,"end":245.14034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.14034375000003,"end":246.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.71409375000002,"end":250.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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有請部長好 請部長廖元豪許部長你好不好意思稍等我一下好不好我們等這個PowerPoint把它弄出來好 OK好 我想要請教我們的許部長你知不知道你是現在就任至今已經2200天了是我們這個史上任期最長的部長"},{"start":38.499,"end":52.15,"text":"恭喜你所以我想要請問你回顧這2000多天的日子你覺得在你的任內勞動部最急切還需要加把勁的業務有哪一些你可不可以給我舉例三項我想"},{"start":57.867,"end":75.573,"text":"譬如說勞保年金的這些問題財務問題的解決我想這是大家所關注的那第二個就是像目前這個大家對移工失聯的問題希望能夠有效的能夠解決我覺得這也是重大的議題之一"},{"start":76.853,"end":77.273,"text":"報告委員．我"},{"start":106.57,"end":134.916,"text":"目前就是把我目前的工作做好那希望在520之後能夠順利交給新任的部長所以你就有覺得不想要再續任了我覺得應該可以讓更多長才來發揮更多長才來發揮那如果部長沒有要繼續擔任部長的話我們祝福你希望你可以轉職成功那也希望在你任內你很成功的推動你的這個中高齡就業服務的機制你會不會使用這個機制去找你新的工作"},{"start":137.367,"end":162.696,"text":"我覺得這個也是一個很好的不過我本身有專業還好所以你比較特別那請問所以你本身有專業還好那請問你會因為也有在外傳這個其實如果要跨業我如果不想回到我專業跨業我會來來善用這個你會來善用這個對不對我覺得不要用中高齡我覺得我是壯士代很好我也喜歡壯士代那請問我們這個壯士代的部長你會考慮投入選舉嗎"},{"start":167.485,"end":177.489,"text":"目前沒有這個規劃沒有這個規劃我剛剛委員把我現在的工作做好我印象就是這樣好因為有傳聞是這樣那沒關係我們今天趕快進入到正題下一頁"},{"start":180.126,"end":203.072,"text":"有關於11月16號的時候你們勞動部有貼文上一年的時候你們說假訊息那件事情之外有一句話很特別叫做勞動部深知目前社會對於印度開放移工來源還是有疑慮所以你們說那個時候尚未簽署也在草擬之中可是過了短短大概三個月的時間你們就簽署了請問部長你覺得有解決這個疑慮嗎"},{"start":205.124,"end":232.139,"text":"報告委員其實疑慮的部分我們還是會持﹖所以請問你覺得有解決疑慮嗎有一些有理解可能有一些部分大家還需要我們再多溝通所以還沒有解決對不對我不敢說因為問題一定會也有辦法說一定會持續啦有些人理解有些人不理解那我們就是說不理解的部分我們還是要持續努力那為什麼部長牌你們自己也知道還有不理解的部分要這麼急著簽MOU呢"},{"start":233.92,"end":256.834,"text":"報告委員我們的MOU他是一個架構就是雙方就這個勞務合作一個意向的一個簽署那後面那個實質的是部長我知道剛剛前面有幾位委員也提過那請問你們在做這件事情之前有沒有什麼評估的報告和方案或是評估相關的這個作業流程報告"},{"start":262.162,"end":289.229,"text":"報告委員我們業務單位在沒有有他們有做一些資訊的蒐集包括評估都有有做資訊的蒐集那你們有做一個報告嗎報告你們跟委員報告這一次我們跟印度在洽商大概主要的評估資訊是從像外交部還有包含印度部台的這些相關字我們把它做我要打斷您喔抱歉我想要打斷您的是說其實你們有你不知道啊部長"},{"start":290.273,"end":318.892,"text":"我上網查了一下,你們官方的報告裡面有一個106年外勞來源國輸出政策走向及我國因應對策的官方評估,對不對?有嘛,對不對?所以你們剛剛是忘記了這件事?不是忘記,我本來以為是說這一次,以為特別寫報告,因為我們...好沒關係,我請問,因為你們這段時間新的報告等於沒做嘛,最新的一份是這個嘛,我網路上查到你們官方有的報告是這份,那請問這是決策,唯一的決策依據嗎?"},{"start":320.936,"end":325.093,"text":"不是是依據之一好那我們下一頁"},{"start":326.724,"end":351.67,"text":"你沒有講到包含你3月4號的這個新聞有說到印度是一個我們可以用的這個來源國因為依照目前的政經局勢還有可能印度受到中國大陸的干預比較少然後低於貧窮線的人口數也眾多加上菲律賓跟菲律賓相同多數人可以用英語溝通而且數理能力這個程度加所以可以來做考慮的對象請問您是不是認同"},{"start":353.567,"end":375.238,"text":"認同這個報告的這部分認同嗎?認同對不對?部長請回答認同好但是同一份報告裡面也有專家說也有專家反饋他們認為印度比較不推薦因為他們的家族性常會使一次一大群人一起來而且語言跟文化差異性也較高請問部長你認同嗎?認同不認同?"},{"start":379.019,"end":380.02,"text":"所以你認同這個概念嗎?你認同還是不認同?好,我們下一個"},{"start":392.162,"end":405.168,"text":"好那這裡也有講到這個印度跟臺灣的關係不錯印度的種族很多可能要考慮哪一個種族適合臺灣我想要請問這個部長您覺得是你們有評估過哪一個種族適合臺灣嗎沒有評估有還是沒有評估有評估嗎沒有評估沒有評估對是這個我們其實目前並不是以種族來考慮是來合作其實主要是對於未來他的條件"},{"start":421.816,"end":425.939,"text":"建議鎖定印度某些區域引進,如東北方的阿薩姆或周遭的六個省,信仰基督教且英文流利,請問你認同與否?"},{"start":447.967,"end":469.721,"text":"副長,你認同?所以你部分有認同,部分不認同這個決議?我就尊重他這個報告,不能說任何人都尊重。但是尊重也有認同和不認同嗎?因為我記得你也有提說,你們會優先從那三個,那個部分來引進,對嗎?優先考量。這個就是說,當初是說,未來我們會考。你有優先考量嘛,對不對?優先考量,當然就是有這個。"},{"start":470.728,"end":493.431,"text":"好,所以其實你們有這個評估報告可是你們不太確定可是你也是部分的採用那再來對,再來就是這個裡面也有提到印度斯里蘭卡進入到家庭內勞工比較困難在語言溝通上有困難那還有同時應該要教育國人與回教徒及印度教徒的相處方式請問你們有相關的配套或是你們有相關的要執行的方向嗎"},{"start":496.259,"end":510.286,"text":"因為印度他的語言確實有印度文跟相關的語氣所以說未來在討論的時候其實我們在跟他主席再給我兩分鐘因為他裡面的英文的能力也是很多好沒關係下一頁"},{"start":512.799,"end":531.994,"text":"所以我上面只想要解決要告訴部長的是其實你們也知道社會的疑慮並沒有解除並沒有解除所以你們應該要再努力的這應該是你們要努力的方向因為現在我們在民間有接收到非常多的民眾對於這件事情的確有疑慮我在反映我們代表反映疑慮告訴你而且也要提醒部長"},{"start":533.034,"end":547.963,"text":"剛剛你們所有的報告裡面有包含種族包含區域等等的其實我要提醒部長要小心不要變成人權笑話因為您昨天也才在印度移工說膚色相近的部分遭到藍綠都共同譴責所以要請部長小心好不好下一頁"},{"start":549.304,"end":551.786,"text":"我們現在遇到很大的問題是我們逃逸的移工數量暴增"},{"start":569.653,"end":569.853,"text":"你聽我說齁 其實在"},{"start":594.343,"end":621.759,"text":"最近的元素為什麼還暴增?主要是3年的疫情我知道!你的報告裡面有寫但是我跟委員報告我們110有比111我知道!我都有看到數據我有認真讀你的東西但是你剛剛自己也有講到嘛你有3件很重要的事情要繼續努力的嘛其中一項就是這個嘛所以我要提出來告訴你喔其實你並沒有做好你要再繼續努力好不好下一頁勞動部會繼續努力那但是你缺工也沒有解決嘛所以你移工跟缺工"},{"start":622.739,"end":622.779,"text":"下頁下頁"},{"start":654.02,"end":677.873,"text":"因為非法的黑工他收入更優惑所以他就會逃跑包含很多建築工是不是他有他量能不足他還是偷用了這個失聯義工結果失聯義工一天的薪水都比合法義工還要高最後都被洗去當失聯義工對不對這是事實吧這是地氣這個是很接地氣的部分甚至很多農業的部分你們也不敢真的去抓對不對下一頁"},{"start":680.285,"end":701.679,"text":"比如說有一些農業的需求因為沒有年輕人所以他必須用移工然後他的淡旺季分配不明顯所以導致很多人就是臨時去當了移工他們也願意雇用移工然後當你們要去稽查的時候還會特別通知在地的里長說要來稽查囉大家當天不要出現這都是在地方上和農業上真正發生的事情你有沒有意識到這樣的狀況部長"},{"start":704.06,"end":720.665,"text":"所以剛剛委員講的很對啦就是說其實很多是經濟因素所以像我們的那個家庭看護工我們也在把他薪資從一萬七調到兩萬我們未來也會針對非法僱用非法仲介這邊我們加重他的罰則"},{"start":723.127,"end":742.586,"text":"是,所以我要告訴部長的事情對,就是說這是一個結構性的問題你應該要從整個大結構配合產業的需求去通盤的考量不是頭痛於頭,腳痛於腳該開放的我們就開放,像營造業,過去民間很多開工所以我們現在營造業,民間的營造業我們也開了一萬五,農業移工部門"},{"start":746.549,"end":748.61,"text":"好 謝謝廖偉翔委員的質詢 我們現在休息5分鐘"}]}},{"id":"149357","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149357","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f7593631eedb503251e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a6e185865d7265e4505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:13:25 - 10:24:52","影片長度":"00:11:27","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-3"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":687,"end_time":"2024-03-06T10:24:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:13:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":579,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（10時13分）謝謝主席，有請勞動部許部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王委員正旭：本席今天的質詢內容有部分是關於衛福部的業務，所以也請衛福部的代表上台。"],["主席：請長照司祝司長。"],["許部長銘春：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。首先是關於本次與印度簽署開放移工的MOU，本席有兩個面向的建議，對內本席建議勞動部必須積極溝通，才能夠凝聚國內的共識；對外本席也建議我們應該透過這一次的契機，持續推動與印度合作的一些相關內容。我們這邊所提到的官方合作不只是勞動部，也希望會包括其他的行政機關。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員，我們會遵照辦理。"],["王委員正旭：好。勞動部應該要持續針對各方代表妥善的溝通來化解疑慮、凝聚共識，前面好幾位委員也都有提到相關的政策，當然我們也知道，不同的立場一定有不同的看法跟考量，所以本席建議勞動部應該持續邀集所有工商團體、勞動團體等各方的代表來妥善的溝通，讓社會的共識可以凝聚得更為完整，也讓這項經過政府完整的評估而且是符合國際經濟發展需求的政策能夠順利地執行，這是非常期待的部分。","我們所期許各方面的這些推動不只是在勞工移入的同時，其實醫療領域也是我們很期待的部分。我們知道，目前基於國際跟區域情勢的變化，如果在簽署MOU這類雙邊合作的時候能夠有相關帶動的話，應該對於臺灣的整體發展會更占有優勢。請教部長，我們這次簽署MOU，剛剛提到沒有其他利益的問題，我們是不是有連動地去促進其他層面的合作？"],["許部長銘春：其他部會他們早就有各項議題的合作，我們這邊是屬於勞務，其實臺印之間的合作面向是越來越多，但是是各自的部會自己跟印方這邊去做協商、討論。"],["王委員正旭：是，其實以醫療領域為例，我們知道印度他們對健康的照護也是非常地積極……"],["許部長銘春：對，醫藥的那個……我記得醫藥、農業都已經走在前面了。"],["王委員正旭：是。在疫情最緊張的時候，我們對於K.K.Aggarwal這位前CMAAO理事長的過世，真的是表達對他的敬意，因為他為了要率先防疫，所以不幸感染而死亡，我們覺得非常惋惜，我們期待未來在做醫療的部分、簽署MOU的同時，有沒有機會針對醫療的領域透過這些合作方式持續來執行？當然，這個會是我們其他需要再持續努力的目標，不知道衛福部這邊有沒有其他的思維？"],["祝司長健芳：目前部裡面有關醫療的部分也都有持續，包括新南向的政策，也都在持續推動中。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。我們也知道，其實移工的職災風險是很高的，職災風險會上升的原因基本上就是因為工作類別造成的，我們很謝謝這些移工們到臺灣來協助臺灣各方面的進步，我們也看到其實職災對於移工造成的影響是滿明顯的，從108年到112年這5年來已經有1,000件以上不管是失能或者死亡的給付，最近對於這些移工造成的失能跟給付的部分，我們看到的是案件，請問有沒有金額上的統計？"],["許部長銘春：金額這個部分我再給委員，好不好？金額的部分我請業務單位整理以後再送給委員辦公室。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就麻煩部長。我們知道如果能夠有效去控制、管控失能或者死亡給付的話，不管是對他們的保護或我們整體的經濟、費用的處理應該會有相關的影響。在強化職安的部分，不知道現在勞動部有加強了哪一部分？"],["許部長銘春：其實我們對移工職安衛的宣導跟教育訓練都持續在進行，也會針對高危險、高風險的一些行業，像營造這方面，我們也都會列為重點，也會特別加強移工在製造、營造這些高風險行業的風險危害意識、還有應該配備的相關防護措施等等，我們都有計畫在做一些推動。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就麻煩部長繼續加強。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["王委員正旭：移工安全的下游就是移工的醫療權益，其實目前跨部會整合既有的醫療權益，我們期待的就是能夠保障他們，當他們身體有違和的時候，能夠提供好的醫療處置，不曉得部長有沒有瞭解新南向健康服務中心相關資源的配置？如何能夠有效地連結這些資源？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個部分我可能還不是那麼清楚，我在瞭解以後跟你……"],["王委員正旭：當然，不只是未來的印度籍移工，我們也期待現在已經在臺灣的這些移工，也都能夠讓他們在就醫的過程裡面得到相關好的連結。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["王委員正旭：我們至少有40家以上的友善醫院有提供這方面的服務模式。"],["許部長銘春：是國內的醫院體系，是不是？"],["王委員正旭：是，沒錯。"],["許部長銘春：好，我請業務單位瞭解以後……"],["王委員正旭：好。"],["許部長銘春：我覺得這是很好的、大家可以合作的政策，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就再麻煩勞動部跟衛福部這邊有更多的相關服務面向的連結。","其實除了這個部分以外，很多、很多的移工在就醫時是有一些困境，這個困境很有可能包括四大項：他不熟悉我們的醫療體制；他可能有語言上的隔閡；他擔心會受到歧視；有時候是因為工作性質，不容易請假。我們也曾經去查過，目前每位勞工平均一年看健保的次數是1次，我們國人是14到15次。當然，這個有各種原因，一方面他們的身體狀況相對是比較年輕，生病的機會比較少，不過我們也希望當他需要就醫，就必須要讓他有好的機會，讓他能夠在身體得到好的保護之下，對於我們整體的工作會更順利，他的奉獻程度也會更好，這是我們希望能夠持續來加強的部分。"],["許部長銘春：是，好。"],["王委員正旭：主席，我可以多2分鐘嗎？基本上我們最近透過大家醫制度希望能幫助臺灣尤其是慢性病的部分，事實上很多高科技、新科技是可以進來的，如果未來移工有這個需要，也期待有這樣的計畫能夠協助他們，這個可能還是要跨部會的結合，才能夠讓落實度會更好。","我們再往下看最後的部分，其實大家都很關心這些失聯移工人數也多了，他們的就醫造成的呆帳怎麼辦？由醫院長期來墊付，就變成每家醫院的負擔，尤其很多都是屬於地區醫院，地區醫院本身可能這樣的風險就已經比較高，如果地區醫院是私人醫院，處理好以後，或者是處理後覺得無法承擔，又把他們轉到公立醫院，就變成公立醫院另外一項負擔，這部分不知道未來如何能夠協助加強？我們知道目前有海外工作基金等等的部分，針對如何能夠解決這些失聯移工醫療費用的呆帳，請問我們目前是不是有任何移工已經成立了基金？如果跟印度簽署MOU，這個議題能不能夠也把它納入在簽署MOU當中的一項？"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員，我們會納入討論的項目之一。海外工作基金到目前為止來源國都比較消極，不願意配合，不過未來對於外國的仲介連帶保證責任部分，我們會來規劃，我覺得用這個可能會更能夠有效地去解決這個問題。"],["王委員正旭：好，我們希望能夠儘快地成立。最後，目前這些墊付的部分，我們看到就業安定基金含括了膳食費、旅費，所以我們很期待就業服務法如果能夠把醫療費也納為墊付項目的話，至少在醫療院所協助這些移工做醫療照顧的時候，費用不應該被排除。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個部分其實我們在行政院有討論過，大家也是認為這不符合就安基金的使用目的，因為這個還是屬於個人債務。"],["王委員正旭：是。"],["許部長銘春：所以就像剛剛講的，我們跟來源國這邊再做一些溝通、協商，另外就是用科以仲介連帶保證的機制，讓這個問題看能不能有效地解決。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就麻煩看如何能夠協助我們醫院來解決這個呆帳的問題，再麻煩相關部會繼續幫忙，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員的質詢。等一下廖偉翔委員質詢結束後休息5分鐘。","現在請廖偉翔委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度\n移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.16909375,"end":8.333468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.72159375,"end":11.590343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.607218750000001,"end":19.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.860343750000002,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.029093750000001,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.480343750000003,"end":13.547843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.547843750000002,"end":14.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.36096875,"end":23.453468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.44534375,"end":22.086593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.90909375,"end":24.195968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.047843750000002,"end":29.49471875},{"speaker":"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謝謝委員我們會遵照辦理"},{"start":65.796,"end":94.73,"text":"好,那我們也知道勞動部應該要持續的針對各方的代表來妥善的溝通來化解疑慮來凝聚共識這個前面好幾位委員也都有提到相關的政策那當然我們也知道不同的立場一定有不同的看法跟考量所以本期建議勞動部應該持續的邀請包括所有的工商團體、勞動團體等各方的代表來妥善的溝通"},{"start":96.29,"end":114.039,"text":"讓這個社會的共識可以凝聚的更為完整讓這一項經過政府完整的評估而且是符合我們國際經濟發展的需求的政策能夠順利的執行這是非常期待的部分我們所期許的各方面的這些推動"},{"start":115.16,"end":129.012,"text":"不只是在這個勞工的移入的同時其實醫療領域也是我們很期待的部分我們知道目前基於國際跟區域情勢的變化如果能夠簽署在MOU這類雙邊合作的時候"},{"start":130.653,"end":146.543,"text":"能夠有相關的這些帶動的話應該對於臺灣的整理發展會更佔有優勢那請教部長我們這次簽署MOU剛剛提到說沒有其他的利益的問題那我們是不是有連動的去促進其他層面的合作"},{"start":148.78,"end":162.452,"text":"其他部位其實他們早就有各項議題的合作我們這邊是屬於勞務所以其實台印之間的合作面向其實是越來越多但是就是各自的部位自己去"},{"start":163.012,"end":163.452,"text":"在疫情最緊張的時候"},{"start":182.859,"end":202.392,"text":"我們對於這位KK阿加瓦這位前西貿理事長的過世真的是表達對他的敬意因為他為了要率先防疫所以也不幸感染而死亡這部分我們覺得非常萬喜那我們期待說未來"},{"start":203.112,"end":220.414,"text":"在做醫療的部分簽署MOU的同時有沒有機會針對醫療的領域也有機會透過這些合作方式持續來執行那當然這個會是我們其他需要再持續努力的目標不知道衛福這邊有沒有其他的一些思維"},{"start":222.172,"end":237.528,"text":"目前部裡面這邊其實有關醫療的部分也都持續有這些包括新南向的一些政策那也都在持續在推動中是好謝謝那我們也知道其實移工的職債風險是很高的"},{"start":241.353,"end":254.067,"text":"實現風險會上升的原因基本上就是因為工作類別造成的那我們很謝謝這些移工們到臺灣來協助整個臺灣的這些各方面的進步那我們也看到其實只在"},{"start":255.228,"end":278.064,"text":"對於這個移工造成的影響是蠻明顯的從108年到112年這5年來已經有1000件以上的這些不管是失能或者是死亡的給付那請問我們最近對於這些移工造成的失能跟給付的部分我們看到的是案件那有沒有金額上的統計"},{"start":279.724,"end":309.367,"text":"金額這個部分我再給委員好不好那個金額部分我請業務單位整理以後再送給委員辦公室那就麻煩部長因為我們知道如果我們能夠有效的去控制管控這個失能或者是死亡幾戶的話那對於不管是對於他們的保護或是對我們整體的經濟在費用的處理也應該會有相關的影響那我們在強化這個職案的部分不知道現在勞動部有加強了哪一部分"},{"start":309.947,"end":332.19,"text":"我們其實對移工的這些職安委的宣導跟教育訓練都持續在進行那也會針對說高危險的高風險的一些行業像營造營造這方面我們也都會去列為我們的重點那也會特別加強移工在"},{"start":334.4,"end":350.921,"text":"指責這些營造的高風險等行業的一些它的風險管理自己的風險的危害的意識還有應該要配備的相關的這些防護措施等等我們都有計畫在做一些推動"},{"start":351.482,"end":374.393,"text":"好 那就讓部長繼續加強那移工安全的下游的部分就是醫療權益就是我們這些移工的醫療權益那其實目前跨部會的整合既有了醫療權益當然我們期待的就是能夠保障他們在當他身體有違和的時候能夠提供好的一個醫療處置那不曉得部長"},{"start":377.935,"end":383.943,"text":"有沒有了解新南向健康服務中心相關的資源的配置?那如何能夠有效的來連結這些資源?這個"},{"start":392.762,"end":418.107,"text":"包委這個部分我可能還不是那麼清楚我在了解以後是當然是不只是未來的印度籍的移工我們也期待假設現在已經在臺灣的這些移工也都能夠讓他們在就醫的過程裡面得到相關的一些好的連結因為我們至少有40家以上的友善醫院其實有提供這方面的服務模式"},{"start":420.087,"end":442.563,"text":"是國內的醫院體系是嗎?是我請業務單位了解以後我覺得這是很好的一個大家可以合作的政策好那就再麻煩勞動部還有跟衛福部這邊有更多相關的這個服務面向的連結那我們再看其實除了這個部分以外"},{"start":444.384,"end":468.709,"text":"很多很多的移工在就業市有一些困境這個困境很有可能就是包括四大項因為他不熟悉我們的醫療體制他可能有語言上的隔閡他有怕擔心會受到歧視那有時候是因為工作的性質不容易請假所以我們也曾經去查過目前每位勞工平均一年"},{"start":470.287,"end":471.347,"text":"這次我們希望能夠持續來加強的部分"},{"start":499,"end":500.107,"text":"好,那我們看這個部...所以..."},{"start":502.483,"end":530.706,"text":"主席我可以多兩分鐘那大嘉義計畫基本上是我們最近透過嘉義制度希望能夠幫助到臺灣尤其是慢性病的部分在事實上很多高科技、新科技是可以進來如果我們未來移工有這個需要也期待有這樣的計畫能夠協助他們這個可能還是要跨部會的這個結合能夠讓這個落實度會更好那我們再往下看最後的部分其實大家都很關心"},{"start":531.667,"end":545.732,"text":"很關心這些失聯移工人數也多了那他們的就醫造成的袋帳怎麼辦那醫院長期來墊付就變成每一家醫院的負擔尤其很多都是屬於地區醫院"},{"start":546.812,"end":570.271,"text":"那地區醫院他本身可能這樣的風險就已經比較高他如果是在地區醫院是私人醫院處理好以後或者是處理他們覺得無法承擔就把他轉到公立醫院那就變成公立醫院另外一項負擔所以這部分不知道未來如何能夠來協助加強因為我們知道目前是有海外工作基金等等的部分那"},{"start":577.517,"end":590.287,"text":"請問我們目前是不是有任何移工已經有成立的基金?那如果跟印度簽署MOU這個議題能不能夠也把它納為在簽署MOU當中的一項?"},{"start":592.15,"end":609.597,"text":"謝謝委員：我們會來納入討論的項目之一那這個海外工作基金到目前為止因為來源國都比較消極不願意配合不過未來我們會就是外國的連帶仲介的連帶保證責任這部分我們會來"},{"start":611.536,"end":615.058,"text":"目前這些店鋪的部分我們看到就業安定基金指含瓜的"},{"start":630.105,"end":648.25,"text":"暫時會、旅費所以我們很期待就業服務法如果能夠把這個醫藥費也能夠納為他要墊付的這個項目的話那至少至少在這個醫療院所協助這些移工做醫療照顧的時候的費用是不應該被排除的"},{"start":650.071,"end":667.085,"text":"這個部分其實我們在行政院有討論過大家是認為這是不符合救安基金的使用目的因為這個還是屬於個人債務所以我們其實就是剛剛講的在跟萊恩國這邊再做一些溝通協商另外就是用這個科與仲介連帶保證的機制來讓這個問題"},{"start":671.192,"end":672.814,"text":"王正旭委員"}]}},{"id":"149356","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149356","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fed58ea748aa60b6b3ce99dc43694a3e0f8ba9b0039caa7a615a52f385e0ba14d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:19:28 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good news but also bad news，好消息是很多人來申請這個機會，供不應求；但bad news就是我們真的真真切切看到很多年輕世代需要心理諮商的幫忙。這是國家在做的事情，照顧年輕人；剛剛教育部照顧老師；司法院照顧司法人員。","這是我擔任委員這麼多年，我非常有成就感的一個政策的協力跟催生，我成功的協助、倡議各個大學有心理假這樣一個新的假別，從我第一次2年前2022年站上質詢臺質詢所有公立大學，包括技職校院的校長們，那個時候只有2個學校有心理假，就是實踐大學跟中山大學，一年多到現在已經有43所大學設立了心理健康假，而心理假不是只讓學生放假而已，它是可以讓這個三級處遇的機制可以接住，誰請心理假就知道這個可能最近失戀囉、這個可能最近爸媽吵架，學校要介入一下，讓這個三級的心輔制度能夠有預警，這是心理假最正向的意義。所以43所大學上路了，現在各大學都持續在推動，它成為一個校園的運動，照顧心理健康、關懷你身邊的每一個人，心靈生病跟身體生病是一樣要等同關切的，而且它有連帶關係。","然後我們進一步教育部現在最新的制度是，現在開始、3月開始高中職也開始來做心理假，所以我做了這麼多分享，您當知道我想要請你們回去研議的就是，現在公務人員的各式假別有這麼多，當然事假、病假、婚假、產前假、喪假、流產假、家庭照顧假，包括女性的生理假，2013年我們也是一步一步去爭取到女性，不要對我的流血來逼我上班，我們經痛的時候那是「哀爸叫母」，很痛苦！所以生理假是一個進步的，我們2013年上路了，甚至2014年我們完成了配套的修法，那next心理假，來，人事長。","曾經有立委提過，我自己也會提案，您個人在政策上聽了思瑤今天在這裡分享很多部會的經驗，跟大家來討論心理健康對於公務人員支持計畫的必要性，最後占用一點點時間，人事長你覺得怎麼樣？要不要來研議？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得委員的倡議非常好，尤其在大學裡面有超過40所學校在推……"],["吳委員思瑤：43……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現在又擴充到高中，我覺得這非常棒，現在以人總的角度來講，我們傳統的思考可以請病假、事假還有休假，那些假我們會稍微去盤一下，如果真的不夠，還有心理假需求的時候，我覺得我們會用比較開放的方式來討論。"],["吳委員思瑤：我希望你們趕快啟動研議，我自己也會提案，我們用生理假的方式來衍生或者是用一般假別的經驗來衍生，就以2018年廖國棟委員所提的公務員服務法為例，他的第一項我覺得是可以接受的，心理健康假每個月1次，全年請假日數未逾3日不併入病假，其餘可併入病假，第二項他是說心理假要半薪，這個我就不同意了，不要針對我的心理不健康來扣薪水，這是不對的觀念，不好意思，我是拿廖委員的提案，但是我分享這個案例是因為也有委員思考到這件事，所以我是很認真的，我覺得心理健康……臺灣人都很害羞，我們會關心你今天感冒了，有沒有看醫生，有沒有吃藥，但是我們總是吝於給身旁的人一個很正向的心理關懷，心理假真的不是給大家另外一個假別的好處而已，不是，是讓我們能夠藉由這個假去接住每一個我們要接住的人，所以你們可以花2個月去研究，也跟你預告我自己也會提案，要怎麼來做、我們來對話交流，我相信這是一個健康的、必要的、進步的……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，心理假的部分我會跟銓敘部來研處，因為這修改請假規則就可以了，不太複雜，我跟銓敘部討論……"],["吳委員思瑤：你甚至不用修法嘛？你們請假規則自己就能處理了，我知道……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是，我們會積極跟銓敘部溝通，因為我非常認同委員的看法，因為這種說真的，大家都不會想要用到那個啦！大家都不會想用到，需要用到的其實是因為他真的有需要，我們政府應該要多關心那些人，我支持。"],["吳委員思瑤：對，我希望我們都跟上蔡英文總統，全民一起來促進心理健康這樣一個對的政策，健康起來，我也很期待我們國會也要健康起來，希望大家未來備詢時，面對理性專業的立法委員，大家心情是愉悅的，也希望思瑤的質詢可以換得大家的一抹微笑，好不好？我持續為大家發聲，一起加油，謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請林思銘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","林思銘","傅崐萁","鄭天財Sra 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1994人到2022已經來到2496人將近到2500這起辭職率就是我的這個所謂的鐵飯碗我都不要了"},{"start":105.552,"end":111.119,"text":"那當然我們人事總處有針對辭職原因做一些調研：我認為我們現有對於公務同仁的辭職原因我們做的那樣的一個調查分析實在是非常的rough"},{"start":121.753,"end":135.945,"text":"例如說這是你們2022做的調查好80%個人因素離開4.17%工作不適應管理的不當2.12待遇福利覺得不夠好的是1.6所以這是一個"},{"start":137.446,"end":155.399,"text":"認為公務體系待遇福利不好而離開的人只有1.6%代表也驗證我們這幾年照顧公務人員是有留人也留心這是一個好的政策工具盡可能滿足大家在待遇上的需求那當然有人是個人的職癌發展1.12%他選擇離開了公務體系我在這裡我直接拋出來就是預防我們的辭職"},{"start":163.365,"end":163.385,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":176.636,"end":194.981,"text":"非常謝謝委員的這個意見事實上我們也非常關注這個議題因為這個資料庫的維護是在全序部我們過去有跟他溝通幾次他那個辭職原因有時那個寫的理由太冷了要寫得比較柔和寫得比較柔和我要統計分析才能夠比較明確不經常說"},{"start":204.284,"end":204.944,"text":"對,因為我們很多分析來自於這個顆粒業系我們分析得越精準"},{"start":227.491,"end":248.105,"text":"下一頁就是自殺數這是非常遺憾十一年來我們的公務員自殺案件都是雙位數包括2023年有22位公務人員選擇親生而離開新聞非常多包括前幾天在總統府前的憲兵他也自殘了"},{"start":249.105,"end":258.269,"text":"雖然憲兵不是我們公務體系您這裡掌管但都呈現了我們的心理健康機制不要漏接每一個生命"},{"start":265.132,"end":291.554,"text":"人總在有一個員工協助方案你應該是一個上位的guideline然後讓各部會去執行對不對那我看到的問題是我們依行政院所屬及地方機關的這個協助方案裡頭提供心理諮商啦身心健康座談啦保健醫療資訊啦還有健康評量檢測健康促進活動等等這個guideline"},{"start":293.375,"end":306.352,"text":"實在有夠guideline你沒有管考沒有細緻到去follow各個部會誰做得好誰做得不夠我來分享我教育部門的做法好嗎下一頁教育部有很好的經驗譬如說2021年教育部就依據你的這個Guideline"},{"start":311.258,"end":311.278,"text":"：吳思瑤"},{"start":331.297,"end":351.409,"text":"所以藉經教育部的這個制度也是思瑤長期來協力的我們甚至修了教師法33條就明定了教育部應當本於照顧教職員工建立教師諮詢諮商的輔導支持體系我們在法規面有法源組織面就成立了我剛剛說的專責單位2021年成立的"},{"start":354.711,"end":377.472,"text":"在預算面呢,我們甚至加碼去針對第一線的教職老師們從原先教育部每年補助地方政府650萬,現在一年提高到6000萬。所以我被群聽這次有報的制度就是說,同樣的一個概念,有的部會很認真去做。當然教育部看到很多老師他承受的這個教學現場的教學壓力。"},{"start":379.704,"end":380.324,"text":"週一我才就叫過司法院的秘書長"},{"start":408.54,"end":425.525,"text":"司法人員他的這個高壓也絕對是大家可以想像的他要承受很多審判當中生離死別判人重判人輕那個永遠在糾葛人都是感情做的都是肉做的都是血溶成的"},{"start":426.005,"end":449.643,"text":"所以司法院也看到體恤他所有的司法人員的工作壓力所以推出司法院的心理健康關懷方案2019上路到現在每年有729人次去使用這樣一個心理健康方案而且他非常優渥跟人事長報告每人每次補助2500元可以去做心理諮商一年可以到8次"},{"start":450.745,"end":459.366,"text":"這是司法院在照顧司法人員的心理健康好再下一頁那這個是蔡總統的五大心理健康方案"},{"start":460.624,"end":488.979,"text":"這已經是溢出於我們公務體系之外是全民我們針對了15到30歲的青年族群每年給三次的心理諮商每次一千六然後一年三次這個預算一直加碼因為我們it's good newsbut also bad news好消息是很多人供不應求來來申請這個機會但bad news就是我們真的真真切切看到很多年輕世代他需要心理諮商的幫忙"},{"start":490.53,"end":516.815,"text":"這是國家在做的事情照顧年輕人剛剛教育部照顧老師司法院照顧司法人員下一頁這是我擔任委員這麼多年我非常有成就感的一個政策的協力跟催生我成功的協助倡議各個大學具有心理價這樣一個新的價別從我第一次兩年前2022年站上質詢台質詢所有"},{"start":520.928,"end":528.797,"text":"公立大學包括技職校院的校長們那個時候只有兩個學校有行李架就是實踐大學跟中山大學"},{"start":529.724,"end":553.764,"text":"一年多到現在已經有43所大學設立了心理健康假而心理假不是只讓學生放假而已他是可以讓這個三級處遇的機制可以接住誰請心理假就知道這個可能最近失戀囉這個可能最近爸媽吵架學校要介入一下讓這個三級的心腹制度能夠有預警"},{"start":554.665,"end":583.428,"text":"這是心理假最正向的意義所以43所大學上路了現在各大學都持續在推動它成為一個校園的運動照顧心理健康關懷你身邊的每一個人心靈生病跟身體生病是一樣要等同關切的而且它有連帶關係好 老幾樣然後我們進一步教育部現在最新的制度是現在開始3月開始高中職也開始來做心理假"},{"start":584.83,"end":601.109,"text":"所以我做了這麼多分享您當知道我想要請你們回去研議的就是下一頁現在公務人員的各式價別有這麼多當然市價、病價、婚價、產前價、商價這個流產價、家庭照顧價包括女性的生理價"},{"start":602.29,"end":629.764,"text":"2013年我們也是一步一步去爭取到女性不要對我的流血來逼我上班我們經痛的時候那是愛被救護很痛苦所以生理假是一個進步的我們2013年上路了甚至2014年我們完成了配套的修法那next心理假來人事長下一頁曾經有立委提過我自己也會提案"},{"start":630.683,"end":631.084,"text":"市長,您覺得如何?"},{"start":647.711,"end":647.731,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":668.918,"end":669.558,"text":"我會用比較開放的方式來討論"},{"start":691.88,"end":719.836,"text":"我希望你們趕快啟動研議啦我自己也會提案那我們用生理假的方式來衍生或者是用一般價別的經驗來衍生就以這個是2018年廖國棟委員所提的公務員服務法他的第一項我覺得是可以接受的就心理健康假每個月一次然後呢請年假全年請假日數未逾三日不病入病假"},{"start":720.556,"end":721.217,"text":"其餘可並入並駕。"},{"start":744.258,"end":770.669,"text":"我們會關心你今天感冒了有看醫生嗎?有吃藥嗎?但是我們總是令於給身旁的人一個很正向的心理的關懷那心理架真的不是給大家另外一個架別的好康寧不是是讓我們能夠藉由這個架去接住每一個我們要接住的人所以你能夠去研究我如果在你遇到我自己也拿這個案"},{"start":771.949,"end":772.169,"text":"吳思瑤議員吳思瑤議員吳思瑤議員吳思瑤議員"},{"start":801.664,"end":804.787,"text":"我希望我們都跟上蔡英文總統全民一起來促進心理健康這樣一個對的政策健康起來當然我也很期待我們國會也要健康起來"},{"start":823.268,"end":835.793,"text":"希望大家未來來備詢面對理性專業的立法委員大家心情是愉悅的也希望私要的質詢可以換得大家的一抹微笑好不好我持續為大家發聲一起加油謝謝好謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"149355","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149355","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f760c170de9eae17952d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a60c0883a82e0276fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:20:20 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10:32:50","影片長度":"00:12:30","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":750,"end_time":"2024-03-06T10:32:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:20:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":463,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時20分）謝謝主席。請主席邀請王部長以及桃機公司楊董事長。"],["主席：請王部長、桃機公司楊董事長。"],["王部長國材：陳委員好。"],["陳委員素月：部長早安。我們看到在3月3號那天，因為桃園機場南跑道歲修，結果造成飛機起降大亂，也造成很多班機延誤，我們看到統計的數字，有將近46%的班機被延誤了。對於這樣的狀況，我想先請問一下，桃園機場的歲修是第一次嗎？"],["王部長國材：不是，不是第一次。"],["陳委員素月：不是第一次嘛，這應該是屬於常態性的工作。"],["王部長國材：過去都很短，有的是半天，這一次因為範圍比較大，所以時間比較長。"],["陳委員素月：所以這是一個常態性的工作，但為什麼以前不會發生這種塞機的狀況，這次卻發生這種起降大亂、嚴重塞機的狀況？所以你們要去好好的檢討到底是什麼原因造成的，剛剛部長說是因為這次範圍比較廣？"],["王部長國材：應該說因為廣，所以時間變比較長，但是我覺得最大的原因應該是通知的時間比較短，所以包括航空公司跟民眾都不知道這個狀況，所以我們現在的想法是……"],["陳委員素月：通知是屬於行政作業，所以這是不是有涉及督導不周的狀況？"],["王部長國材：第一個當然是通知，所以大家在因應，比如說航空公司航班的調整沒辦法到位。第二個，我是覺得在航管方面，也可以試看看剛剛在談的，就是進入我們飛航情報區之前要做管制，不要說已經飛到我們空中在那邊盤旋。"],["陳委員素月：因為我覺得這種狀況真的是滿嚴重的，因為這個也涉及到飛安的問題。我們再看一下，因為飛機的延誤，我相信也耽誤了很多旅客的既定行程，誠如我們召委講的，很多旅客出國可能是有重要的事情，可能是商務或者是洽公，如果因此造成他們的損失，這個部分你們要如何處理？你們有考慮研究賠償的問題嗎？"],["王部長國材：我請董事長來做說明。"],["楊董事長偉甫：是不是容我來做一個補充報告？首先謝謝委員的指教。這次的歲修會有這樣的情況，是過去我們在歲修工程的經驗裡面有一些盲點沒有去處理好，包括剛剛提到的相關單位的通告、通知，在前置會議的過程當中都有邀請，但是在執行之前沒有再一次做確認。另外還有一個問題就是，我們過去的飛航通告是依據民航法規的國際要求，在90天之內要公告，但是我們現在欠缺的是對我們國內的旅客或者國際的旅客，還有包括航空公司配合的調度措施，對旅客的部分，讓他們及早做準備，所以這整個系統性的檢討，這一、兩天我們已經積極的在進行當中。至於公司內部的部分，我們已經在昨天跟前天做檢討，下個禮拜我們會邀請其他系統性跟這種案子有關的相關單位，包括民航局、航空公司等等，再進一步檢討，會提出一個詳細的檢討報告。也藉這個機會再向社會大眾鄭重的道歉，機場公司這一次系統性的整合沒有做好的地方，我們會積極的改進，謝謝。"],["陳委員素月：謝謝楊董事長。我再請教一下部長，因為這樣的風波，也導致外界批評你們在桃機人事的安排上好像是有酬庸的狀況，這部分是不是可以請部長回復一下？"],["王部長國材：第一個，他們談楊董事長，因為楊董事長本人對土木、水力有了解，而且他以前曾是台電董事長。過去桃機裡面電跟水是很重要的一部分，屬於基礎設施，然後我們現在也在做三航廈、三跑道的建設。事實上當台電董事長不是只是學交通的就好，還要因應當時的需要，比如說現在是以建設為主、基礎設施的強韌為主，其實當時是有幾個人選，然後最後才選到楊董事長。","另外有談到是不是有特定，比如說誰來推薦誰等等，我昨天有跟董事長討論過，沒有所指的比如說副院長去交代人事這個事情，他們是按照它的甄選程序，因為進來的人也不是很高層級的，如果是高層級的，可能要跟院討論，所以這個部分是桃機本於它的甄選公告以後所選出來的人，大概是這樣。"],["陳委員素月：是，我們當然也願意選擇相信部長的說法，因為我們也知道桃園機場這幾年來很重要的一項工作就是第三航廈以及第三跑道的興建工程，這個都是非常重大的工程，第三航廈整個發包過程真的也是延誤很久了，我們也期待藉由專業人才擔任這個職務，來讓這個工程能夠順利。不過發生了這個風波，當然就會讓外界對桃機人事的能力大打折扣，我們也請楊董事長及相關的總經理等等要將功贖罪，是不是之後要積極的有所作為，包括整個機場的運作或者是工程的進度等等，你們都應該擔起更大的責任。是不是請董事長說明一下？"],["楊董事長偉甫：非常謝謝委員的勉勵。事實上這次的事件讓我們痛定思痛，這兩天我跟總經理也不斷的在主持我們內部的檢討會，把所有可能要改進的地方必須要逐一的挑出來，一個重點的結論就是，我們要把過去的作法打掉重練，包括標準作業程序，因為以現在旅客運量增加的狀況以及現在機場正在進行第三航廈等等這些工程建設的過程，我們必須要更謹慎。以後有歲修工程，我們除了會有一個SOP之外，還會以專案的方式成立應變小組，從頭到尾、從開始做計畫之前就開始成立，所以這個案子讓我們會有一個新的出發，我們希望以後不會再發生這樣的情況，謝謝。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝楊董事長。接下來我來請教有關道路安全的問題，楊董事長先請回。","道路安全關係著所有國人的生命安全，是一個非常重要的問題，可是最近我發現交通部相關單位在進行道路改善安全的工程之後，並沒有更安全，反而更危險。以我的選區為例，最近從過年前到現在，在台一線有路口改善的部分，結果田尾、民生路口這個路口改善之後，到現在至少發生了5起自小客車或是大貨車去撞中央安全島的車禍事故，針對這部分，部長你怎麼看？"],["王部長國材：在很多道路工程，我們現在有一個是省道，一個是地方道路，我應該在上個禮拜已經請我們的李綱參事組成一個專案小組，針對省道的交通工程的部分，包括人行設施。過去省道人行設施做得很少，因為過去都是比較郊外，可是現在發覺省道旁邊有很多發展的地區，包括人行也要使用，所以我已經請一個專案來看全國的狀況，包括請專家學者等去協助公路局來做檢討，這個部分本身警示的設備不足，容易撞到，我想這部分他們在交通工程必須做改善。"],["陳委員素月：是，我目前show的這個路口只是其中一個路口，其實在台一線往北的下一個路口也同樣有類似的狀況，就是說你們在改善左轉車道的時候，就把左轉的燈號先取消了，可是你們的內縮工程卻還沒有做。所以針對這一點，我是要提醒交通部，你們在進行相關的道路改善工程的時候，應該要一次到位，不然只先做一半、先做半套，結果剩下來那一半，在這個過程當中導致很多意外事故發生的話，這個責任到底要誰來擔？"],["王部長國材：好，我請他們各個分局儘速，就這些已經可以發現到的趕快優先來改，當然是要一個整體性的，因為省道非常長，我也希望這個專案小組對於省道的交通工程部分會有一些建議，局長也知道，他會極力來處理。"],["陳局長文瑞：是，還是跟委員報告一下，道路的幾個路口大概就是上下游的車道沒有對齊，有些要增加左轉的專用道，可是增加了以後，車道前進的時候，可能還要再多畫一些行車導引線或警示的，讓大家不會說往前走就跟分隔島比較近、撞到。現在在相關的改善部分，包括我們自己的工程單位，也協同地方的交通跟警察一起做，未來我們要增加更多的比如像是交通工程技師，有些部分會勘之後，大家決定，可是還是有一些疏漏的地方，我們希望把這一塊補強，部長也有指示，我們也有專案小組會全面來檢視。"],["陳委員素月：好，希望在做相關的道路改善工程時，速度要快，而且要更周全。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["陳委員素月：接下來，最後一件事，我想關心一下，在2月底時，彰化縣伸港建國路口跟美港路口這邊發生一件備受矚目而且令人非常遺憾的車禍事故，造成3個姊弟被撞，目前兩個姊妹還在加護病房。有關這個重大車禍事故，地方的鄉親都認為美港公路高架化應該要儘速推動及完成。是不是可以請部長簡單說明一下，這個部分目前的進度如何？"],["王部長國材：美港公路現在應該是送到國發會在審查，我們希望趕快確定。另外，就這個路口來看，雖然這次的原因不見得是這個工程的課題，但是我覺得它畫得不好。就是這種行穿這麼長，第一個沒有庇護島，第二個應該找一個最短的地方、退縮來讓他通行，我也要求公路局在一個月內做一個改善。"],["陳委員素月：就是短期內先做一些改善。"],["陳局長文瑞：有，跟委員報告，已經做會勘，而且找了專家學者，已經會勘完畢，第一階段的改善部分，這個斜交的行穿線我們會改成Z字型的行穿線，讓行人通行更安全，也有庇護島，這個一個月內會完成。另外，因為沒有兩邊的人行道，所以我們還要把行穿線通過後的兩側人行道再做起來。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝部長。"],["王部長國材：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：陳委員發言完畢。在此先做宣告，本日有委員提出臨時提案，依本會往例，在登記質詢的本會委員發言告一段落後處理，稍後我們在徐富癸委員詢答完畢後隨即處理臨時提案，請各黨團助理通知提案的提案人。","現在休息。","休息（10時33分）","繼續開會（10時45分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","廖先翔","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","游顥","萬美玲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","高金素梅","王鴻薇","李柏毅","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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有的是半天 這一次因為範圍比較大 所以時間比較長對 所以就是說這個是一個常態性的一個工作 那為什麼以前不會發生這種塞機的狀況 那這一次為什麼發生這樣子的起降大亂 嚴重的塞機 所以我們要去好好的檢討到底是什麼原因造成的 那剛剛部長說是因為這個範圍比較廣"},{"start":73.314,"end":75.675,"text":"通知是屬於行政作業嗎?那這就有涉及到這都島是不是我們的這個都島不周的這個狀況?"},{"start":98.632,"end":123.477,"text":"是,那個第一個當然是通知所以大家在因應比如說航空公司在他的航班的調整這個沒辦法到位那第二個我是覺得在航管方面航管未來在事實上剛才在談一個就是說進入我們飛行情報區之前要做管制不要說一定飛到我們空中在那邊盤選對,因為我覺得這種狀況真的是蠻嚴重的因為這個也涉及到飛安的一個這個"},{"start":126.118,"end":155.947,"text":"﹗"},{"start":157.346,"end":182.665,"text":"是不是容我來做一個補充報告首先謝謝委員的指教那這一次的稅修會有這樣的一個情況是過去我們在稅修工程的經驗裡面有一些盲點沒有去處理好那除包括剛剛提到的相關單位的通告、通知在前次會議的過程當中都有邀請但是在執行之前沒有再一次做的確認另外還有一個問題就是我們過去的飛航通告是依據"},{"start":183.365,"end":202.029,"text":"明朗法規的一個國際的要求在90天之內要公告但是我們現在欠缺的是對我們國內的旅客或者國際的旅客還有包括航空公司的配合的調度措施對旅客的部分讓他們及早做準備所以這些整個系統性的檢討這一兩天我們已經積極的在進行當中"},{"start":205.11,"end":228.644,"text":"公司內部的部分我們已經在昨天跟前天做檢討下個禮拜我們會邀請其他系統性跟這種案子有關的相關單位包括民航局、波瓦航空公司等等再進一步檢討會提出一個詳細的檢討報告那也藉這個機會再向我們的社會大眾非常鄭重的道歉既然公司這一次系統性的整合沒有做好的地方我們會積極的改進謝謝"},{"start":230.966,"end":248.249,"text":"謝謝楊董事長那我再請教一下部長因為這樣子的一個風波也導致外界批評說我們在逃機人士上的一個安排好像是有酬庸的這種狀況那這部分是不是可以請部長回覆一下"},{"start":249.252,"end":263.762,"text":"事實上第一個他們談這個楊董事長因為楊董事長本人土木水利那您知道而且是以前過去是台電的董事長那過去這個淘機電跟水是裡面很重要的一部分基礎設施"},{"start":266.303,"end":291.249,"text":"三行下三跑道建設當台階董事長不是只有學交通的現在是以建設為主基礎設施的強韌為主所以當時有幾個人選到楊董事長是這樣另外有談到說是不是有特定比如說誰來推薦誰我昨天有跟董事長討論過"},{"start":293.57,"end":313.032,"text":"沒有這個所指的比如說副院長去交代人事這個事情他們是按照他的徵選程序那因為他進來的人也不是很高層級的啦如果你高層級可能要跟院討論所以這個部分是這個陶吉本儀他的徵選的這個公告以後所選出來的人大概是這樣"},{"start":314.438,"end":335.06,"text":"我們當然也願意選擇相信部長的說法因為我們也知道桃園機場這幾年來很重要的一項工作就是第三航廈還有這個第三跑道的一個興建工程那這個都是非常重大的工程那在第三航廈的這個整個發包過程真的也是延誤很久我們也期待就是說"},{"start":335.52,"end":335.54,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":357.685,"end":386.66,"text":"是不是之後要積極的有所作為包括這個就是整個機場的運作或者是工程的一個進度等等我們都應該擔起更大的一個責任是不是請董事長說明一下非常謝謝委員的勉勵事實上這一次的事件讓我們痛定思痛那這兩天我跟總經理不斷的在主持我們內部的檢討會把所有可能要改進的地方必須要逐一的挑出來那一個重點的結論就是我們要把過去的做法打掉重練"},{"start":388.046,"end":416.493,"text":"﹗"},{"start":417.334,"end":441.772,"text":"謝謝楊董事長接下來我來請教一下有關道路安全的問題楊董事長先請回我想道路安全關係著我們所有國人的生命安全非常重要的一個問題可是最近我發現說我們交通部的相關單位在進行道路改善安全的工程之後沒有更安全反而更危險"},{"start":442.833,"end":443.814,"text":"所以針對這部分部長你怎麼看"},{"start":470.855,"end":499.244,"text":"我想在很多道路工程的確在我們現在有一個是省道一個是地方道路地方道路我在應該上個禮拜已經請我們的一個李剛參事組成一個專案小組對於省道的這個交通工程的部分包括人形設施那過去省道人形設施做很少因為過去都是比較郊外可是現在或者省道的旁邊有很多發展的地區包括人形也要使用"},{"start":499.824,"end":515.805,"text":"所以我已經請一個專案來看全國的包括專家學者協助公路局來做這個檢討我想說這個部分本身的警示的設備不足容易撞到我想這部分他們在交通工程必須做改善"},{"start":517.204,"end":541.989,"text":"我目前就是秀的這個路口其實只是其中一個路口其實在這個台線在往北的下一個路口同樣有類似的狀況就是說我們在要改善了這個左轉車道的時候我們就把這個左轉的燈號先取消了可是我們的內縮的工程卻還沒有做所以我"},{"start":543.309,"end":565.569,"text":"針對這一點我是要提醒我們交通部就是說我們在進行相關的這個道路改善工程的時候我們應該要一次到位不能說只先做一半先做半套結果這樣子剩下那一半那你在這個過程當中你就導致了很多的這個意外事故的一個發生我覺得這個責任我到底要誰來擔"},{"start":567.078,"end":579.171,"text":"我請他們的各個分局競速就這些已經可以發現到趕快優先來改當然是要一個整體性的就是說省道非常的長那我也希望說這個專業小組對於省道的這個"},{"start":583.536,"end":611.054,"text":"交通工程部門會有一些這個建議然後我請他們這個局長也知道他們會繼續來處理是還是跟委員報告一下就是說相關的因為道路的這個像幾個路口其實大概就是上下游的車道他沒有對齊然後有些要增加左轉的專用道可是對齊就是比如說增加了以後就是說那個車道前進的時候就是說他可能要還要再多畫一些行車導引線或警示的"},{"start":611.594,"end":638.248,"text":"讓大家不要不會說往前走就跟那個分隔島比較近撞到那為現在其實在相關的改善的部分其實包括我們自己的工程單位還協同地方的交通跟警察一起做那未來我們要增加更多的比如說像交通工程祭司有些部分其實大家可能在會刊以後大家決定可是還是有一些疏漏的地方那我們希望把這一塊能夠再補強那也部長也指示我們有專案小組會全面來檢視"},{"start":639.75,"end":660.491,"text":"希望我們在做先問的道路改善工程的時候我們要速度要快而且要更周全那接下來最後一件我想關心一下就是在2月底的時候就是彰化縣深港建國路口跟美港路口這邊發生了一件真的是備受矚目而且令人非常遺憾的車禍事故"},{"start":662.012,"end":686.355,"text":"那造成就是三個姊弟就是被撞那目前兩個姊妹還在這個交互病法所以有關這個重大一個車禍事故地方的鄉親他們都認為說我們有關相關的這個美港公路高價化應該要盡速來推動跟完成所以是不是可以請部長簡單說明一下這個目前的進度如何"},{"start":687.072,"end":714.767,"text":"工務現在應該是送到國安會再審查那我們希望說趕快確定另外就這個入口來看就是說雖然這一次的原因不見得是這個工程的課題但是我覺得他畫得不好就是說這種形狀這麼長第一個沒有屁股島第二個應該是在找最短退縮做找一個最短的地方來讓他通行我也要求這個工務局在一個月內把它做一個"},{"start":717.629,"end":737.666,"text":"短期內先做新的改善嗎?是,跟委員報告已經就是說做會刊而且找了專家學者那會刊完畢了那第一階段的改善的部分就是說這個協交的行川線我們會改成Z字型的這個行川線那這個讓行人通行更安全也有庇護到那這個一個月內會完成那另外"},{"start":738.066,"end":738.086,"text":"謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"149354","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149354","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f1c013e35767fbf0852d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a6a5d303fbad1cac0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"10:07:53 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10:20:01","影片長度":"00:12:08","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":728,"end_time":"2024-03-06T10:20:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T10:07:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":405,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（10時8分）主席，請王部長上台。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長國材：林委員早。"],["林委員沛祥：王部長，你們這份洋洋灑灑的報告寫了一堆，我發覺在67到68頁，你們對TPASS的功能性覺得很自豪、很自傲。但是我必須提醒你們，TPASS的功能性實質上是大幅度被削弱的，而且削弱得很厲害，遠不及你們給的數據。在第68頁講到TPASS每個月對於公路的運輸增加11.5%，但實際上看得到吃不到，而且看得到吃不到的狀況越來越嚴重。上次我記得您在院內報告時說，甚至新聞上面有寫，最近TPASS的銷售業績是停滯的，你並沒有到第一線去看，所以停滯的原因你並不瞭解。","請看下一頁簡報，這是昨天晚上在市府轉運站1815等車的狀況，當下有超過300人在那邊等車，而本席從9點半到10點在那邊等1815這台車，這是基隆市目前運量第二大的國道公路路線，但是那個時候能夠上車的，如果本席沒有記錯的話，在150人左右裡面差不多只有50人能上得了車，這個壅塞的狀況非常的嚴重。","第二個，2088是更大的一條，是目前基隆市最大的客運路線，而2088這條線好一點，在短短的30分鐘內有將近5班車，平均每班車有二十多個人。本席只是臨時去抽查，在昨天晚上9點半到10點之間我就看到這樣的狀況的話，我想在臺北市的每一個大站點，我們都會看到同樣的基隆人，甚至桃園人遇到同樣國道客運班次的問題。我們等車的時間實質上是越來越長，因為班次不夠、司機不夠，因為國道客運法、運輸業管理規則事實上已經不符合時宜。TPASS的成立對於全部的通勤族來講是件好事，但是目前來講，因為我們準備的資源，不管是班次也好、司機也好，甚至車子也好，我聽說中央政府要求我們的巴士全面電動化，但是全面電動化的話，目前我知道客運業者能夠跟得上這個進度的沒幾個，當你補助又不夠的時候，你這樣不是硬生生的逼著業者不得不去違法，不得不趕不上要求嗎？這一點來講，如果要很快速地改變的話，我認為運輸業管理規則這件事情未來在交通委員會，不管520之後您做不做交通部長，這件事情必須要馬上解決，這個不關政治，這是民生的問題，請部長回答。"],["王部長國材：是，的確，基隆的客運就像委員所提的，以這樣來看，如果服務都提供的話，用TPASS後更多人搭乘，的確現在主要是司機，還有包括這次在基隆的國道客運──首都退出以後，服務品質是比較差的，所以我們在這段時間也做了很多的改善。其中有一個是司機的課題，司機的課題等一下公路局局長會做一個補充，它事實上有幫忙代訓司機，但是疫情過後，這個腳步的確……"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝部長，我認為司機的問題是其次，而是在於業者是不是能夠合理、有效的調度司機的班次，我覺得才是我們現在真正要討論的問題。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["林委員沛祥：在這個問題上面，我們上次在總質詢的時候曾經討論過，國道客運跟一般公車1.4塊/1公里的補助跟2.3塊/1公里的補助，基本上這個其實是很不合理的。"],["王部長國材：瞭解。"],["林委員沛祥：第二件事情是讓空車繼續跑，讓司機開空車，造成成本增加，這個對國道客運的業者來講也是很辛苦的。所以本席在這邊強力訴求，應該要把雙北劃成一個首都生活圈或首都交通圈，讓基隆、桃園、宜蘭三邊的國道公車變成所謂的城際公車，這樣能夠快速的解決我們現在遇到國道客運的問題。"],["王部長國材：現在基本上就是一個生活圈，宜蘭、基隆、雙北……"],["林委員沛祥：這是一個生活圈，但是我們上次也提過國道客運的運算方式，基隆到臺北25公里，桃園到臺北火車站不到40公里，可是每一個都是用國道客運法來做計算的時候，就對客運業者非常非常不公平。這一點我們在總質詢提過，我希望部長在這邊想清楚我剛剛講的東西。"],["王部長國材：瞭解。"],["林委員沛祥：再來，在部長這份報告裡面寫最多的是1到10頁的公路工程，尤其是國道交流道的設置。上次我們在總質詢的時候部長一直說軌道運輸其實某個程度上是為了都市規劃而設計的，但是本席認為公路工程跟國道交流道的設置才是對國家的區域發展有長足的幫助。在1到10頁中每一個設置的交流道，高工局都負責設計、都更、用地取得、工程發包。尤其最好的例子是國道3號接66號快速道路、國道1號接74號快速道路，這方面本席在這邊強烈建議以下幾條路線，我認為國道交流道的工程應該要延伸到那邊去。","第一個，在基隆市安樂區國家新城地區，目前那邊只有不到0.9平方公里，卻有1萬5,000人住在那個區域。除此之外還加一個貨櫃廠在那0.9平方公里裡面，而只有一條兩線道的道路，要開差不多將近1.5公里才能接上國道。這件事情造成我目前最大的選區──安樂區常態性的大塞車，天天早上都在塞車，我認為這樣的困境應該需要交通部來幫忙，這是第一個。第二個，我們都知道每個週末往金山、萬里都有大量的觀光客在塞車，這個問題已經不是單單基隆市的問題，包括新北的問題也常浮現。我也知道這條高速公路會塞車的主要原因是因為經過國道3號基金交流道，而基金交流道要直接到金山、萬里必須經過整個大武崙地區。嚴格講起來，大武崙地區足足有3萬人住在那邊，而最主要是因為國道3號並沒有一個往西向的交流道引道。如果部長還是高公局的主管開過這條路的時候，你會發現國道3號有接62號往東向，也就是往瑞芳，甚至九份方向去的交流道，但是並沒有往西向。本席在這邊強烈建議，與其你們再重新開一條高速公路直達萬里、金山，倒不如好好去想一想國道3號怎麼樣去連接往西向的交流道。"],["趙局長興華：委員，我簡單說明一下。印象中國家新城西邊是隔一個新山水庫才到國道3號……"],["林委員沛祥：所以要做可行性評估啊！"],["趙局長興華：它應該是做一條聯絡道路，看看聯絡道路怎麼處理。"],["林委員沛祥：我先把我這邊的訴求講清楚……"],["趙局長興華：它跟國道是沒有相接的。"],["林委員沛祥：因為我認為如果在不影響水庫安全情況下，工程面我們都是可以克服的。"],["趙局長興華：它距離國道還有一公里多。"],["林委員沛祥：我現在要提的還有第三個，國道1號在苗栗市玉清大橋這邊其實應該設一個交流道連接72號，來幫助苗中地區的經濟發展。"],["趙局長興華：這個部分以前有討論過，它有高低差的問題，而且那個地方邊坡曾經坍滑過，所以目前來講那個山沒辦法處理。"],["林委員沛祥：我覺得可行性評估你們……"],["趙局長興華：以前有處理過。"],["林委員沛祥：那會後請給我書面資料。"],["趙局長興華：好。"],["林委員沛祥：第四個，我在第4頁第七項有看到國道1號五堵交流道到汐止交流道有拓寬計畫，但是本席要求會後你要給我詳細的書面資料，之後我要再做質詢。"],["趙局長興華：是，這個沒問題。"],["林委員沛祥：最後一點，我想請問一下，因為本席以前曾經在港務公司任職過，當初是認為高雄的旅運中心建造的經費比基隆的旅運中心高出很多，我如果沒有記錯的話，高達20億以上，請問基隆港現在的旅運中心進度怎麼樣？因為部長您也講過捷運到基隆，在我有生之年捷運一定到基隆市區，如果你當初的計畫沒有錯的話，捷運到基隆市區的最後一站是基隆港的旅運中心，那我想請教目前的進度是怎麼樣？"],["王部長國材：應該是東岸跟西岸的旅運大樓都算做完了。"],["林委員沛祥：西岸的旅運大樓做完了？"],["王部長國材：它現在就是用……"],["林委員沛祥：西岸那是旅運大樓嗎？"],["王部長國材：它是用西二、西三嘛……"],["林委員沛祥：那個算是旅運大樓？跟當初講的旅運大樓是一樣的嗎？海關可以搬過去，有地下室三層停車場、地上九層的建築物嗎？"],["李董事長賢義：當時在99年的話是有規劃旅運大樓，因為……"],["林委員沛祥：請問西六碼頭現在空在那邊做什麼？"],["高總經理傳凱：那個計畫在103年的時候因為西二、西三被定為歷史建物，所以那個計畫……"],["林委員沛祥：不管是這上面寫的，還是我們看到林右昌在2022年12月19號說西六到西四碼頭即將開發為西岸會展與旅運智慧大樓，同時也是基隆捷運最後一站。本席想請問交通部，那目前的規劃是什麼？"],["王部長國材：旅運大樓現在西岸就是西二、西三。"],["林委員沛祥：那個就是你們所謂的旅運大樓？"],["王部長國材：對，你講的在西三碼頭的那個，他們現在還在準備發包。"],["李董事長賢義：現在西六的部分我們有……"],["林委員沛祥：這跟當初國際標那個建築物差太多了吧？當初開國際標，那時候還被國際認為是優良建築物，現在變成什麼都不是的倉庫？"],["李董事長賢義：它最主要是涉及文資的問題。"],["林委員沛祥：現在有捷運的規劃嗎？"],["王部長國材：延伸線會有，如果從八堵進來以後，我們當時的端點的確是在那個地方。"],["林委員沛祥：怎麼進來？"],["王部長國材：當時的規劃是進來以後直接到西六，就是跟這個旅運大樓……"],["林委員沛祥：延續總質詢的議題，我希望交通部可以主動負責起第二階段的基隆捷運規劃。"],["王部長國材：應該這麼說，西岸的旅運大樓現在算完工……"],["林委員沛祥：好，本席到此質詢完畢。"],["王部長國材：西六就是後續再來處理。"],["主席：好，林委員發言完畢，林委員所質詢的問題，請港務公司再次跟林委員來做說明。","在陳素月委員發言完畢之後要休息10分鐘。","現在請陳素月委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","廖先翔","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","游顥","萬美玲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","高金素梅","王鴻薇","李柏毅","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳秀寳","蘇清泉","劉建國","陳俊宇"],"page_start":255,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4.2497187499999995,"end":7.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.21971875,"end":7.236593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10.40909375,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11.286593750000002,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.446593750000002,"end":14.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14.77971875,"end":14.965343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.965343750000002,"end":51.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.68534375,"end":69.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.40221875,"end":54.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":72.74534375,"end":74.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.17971875,"end":106.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":79.29284375,"end":79.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.08159375000001,"end":112.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.95846875000001,"end":129.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.08659375000002,"end":130.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.24659375000002,"end":204.31971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.82596875000002,"end":217.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.92096875000001,"end":218.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.34284375000001,"end":219.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":219.13596875000002,"end":231.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":231.13409375,"end":249.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":249.40971875000002,"end":254.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":254.94471875000002,"end":258.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.03284375000004,"end":298.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.35346875,"end":285.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.65096875,"end":299.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.65909375,"end":314.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":315.20534375,"end":320.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.23409375,"end":344.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":344.80409375000005,"end":344.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":344.98971875,"end":345.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.02346875,"end":361.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.74659375000005,"end":409.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.34659375,"end":418.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.76721875000004,"end":433.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.05596875000003,"end":436.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.50284375,"end":454.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.31596875,"end":444.68721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.44096875,"end":471.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.99096875000004,"end":486.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.11096875000004,"end":498.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.21034375000005,"end":513.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.02346875,"end":508.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.4909687500001,"end":543.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.3303437500001,"end":515.1572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.54534375,"end":517.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.2522187500001,"end":529.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.76034375,"end":553.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.2990937500001,"end":562.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.0034687500001,"end":555.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.7709687500001,"end":557.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.86784375,"end":558.3740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.16659375,"end":573.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":565.61346875,"end":566.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":570.0009687500001,"end":570.4734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":571.75596875,"end":573.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.3884687500001,"end":608.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":609.35346875,"end":609.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":609.5053437500001,"end":618.6515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.6515937500001,"end":625.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.0178437500001,"end":625.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.1440937500001,"end":630.3797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.7509687500001,"end":634.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.0334687500001,"end":633.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.1428437500001,"end":635.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":637.2647187499999,"end":639.2053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":639.98159375,"end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"},{"start":563.234,"end":579.276,"text":"的無土交流道到矽脂交流道有投寬計畫但是我們目前本席要求會後你要給我詳細的書面資料然後我之後我要再從這邊再去做質詢而最後一點我是目前我想請問一下因為本席以前曾經在港務公司任職過"},{"start":580.217,"end":608.379,"text":"在高雄的旅運中心當初是認為這個建造的經費是比基隆的旅運中心來得高很多的我記得如果沒有錯的話高達20億以上那請問一下基隆港現在的旅運中心進度怎麼樣因為部長您也講過捷運到基隆捷運一定到我有生之年捷運一定到基隆市區但是如果你當初的計畫沒有說話捷運到基隆市區的最後一站是基隆港的旅運中心那我想請教目前進度是怎麼樣"},{"start":608.899,"end":610.12,"text":"當時在99年是有一個規劃旅運大樓"},{"start":630.78,"end":632.242,"text":"那請問西六碼頭現在空在那邊做什麼?"},{"start":640.575,"end":649.543,"text":"那個計畫在103年的時候因為西岸會展旅運智慧大樓那同時之間也是基隆捷運最後一站那我想請問交通部"},{"start":665.346,"end":691.601,"text":"目前的規劃是什麼?現在這樣啦,旅運大樓現在西岸就是西2、西3嘛那個就是你們所謂的旅運大樓那您講的在西3碼頭那個他們現在還在準備花包現在西6的話,西6的部分的話就是我們有這跟當初國際標那個建築物差太多了吧當初開國際標還是那時候還是被國際認為說是優良建築物所以現在變成是什麼都不是的倉庫"},{"start":693.387,"end":693.627,"text":"關於文資的問題﹖"},{"start":715.366,"end":717.829,"text":"我希望交通部可以主動負責其第二階段的基礎決定規劃。"}]}},{"id":"149353","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149353","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fbd9a95efc4be74aa52d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a6fb377b89261b63d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"09:55:36 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們要來打擊詐騙但是本席今天質詢的時候要指出一件事情,包含稍早的時候我們有開一個記者會"},{"start":32.165,"end":57.863,"text":"中華電信會不會成為這個詐騙的共犯或者是我當然你知道你沒有翻譯啦但是會不會這個詐騙集團來利用我們講個案子2021年2月28號的時候有一間這個魔方移動股份有限公司NCC就已經廢止了他所謂的第二類電信事業的全部業務這個時間點是2021年2月8號他就被廢止了"},{"start":64.158,"end":87.836,"text":"但是如果你現在上網搜尋這個魔方移動魔方電信因為這間公司他設置在台中我們上網看他的這個網站裡面還有所謂的行動轉售跟加持服務的營業規章他的合作電信業者很擺明地寫的就是寫的中華電信那中華電信裡面這個部分魔方移動的合約裡面也提到"},{"start":89.346,"end":103.737,"text":"他的規章裡面他的業務合作的範圍合作的公司就是向中華電信來陳租他的行動網路業務經營那租用他的門號跟服務那再向用戶來提供行動轉售跟相關的加值服務簡單來講"},{"start":106.543,"end":124.956,"text":"這間魔方移動他是把他的所謂的這個業務範圍建立在中華電信的業務上面然後提供給所謂的詐騙集團提供給很多的使用者來使用他在販賣他的這個門號的時候他會強調保證是全新號碼吃到飽無限制流量"},{"start":125.897,"end":150.935,"text":"安全無虞吃到飽跟號碼可以完全的分開追蹤不易號碼保證絕不輪轉兩個月內可以無限的收發驗證碼那獨立的海外系統防止駭客入侵提供三組號碼可以一直來收發簡訊APP所以我想想包含我自己在內我們常常覺得說為什麼會常常收到什麼標股的簡訊常常收到很多投資的簡訊常常很多的我們的民眾受害者被詐騙集團的欺騙原來"},{"start":153.181,"end":174.938,"text":"找到原因了就是因為有很多所謂的二類的業者他是在跟中華電信來使用相關的服務而且最嚴重是什麼我要講的是說當然如果今天是合法的商業行為我們沒辦法智慧但是今天提到了這個像剛剛提到這個魔方電信魔方移動公司他在2021年他就早就被NCC廢止的相關的業務了"},{"start":175.558,"end":188.531,"text":"但是他卻還能夠持續的來跟中華電信來合作那包含去年減掉的偵辦還有今年齁今年2024年1月的時候雲林地檢署的起訴文件也都提到"},{"start":189.639,"end":218.398,"text":"我發現他是向這個中華電信來申請企業門號跟賣藥門號提供給這個上海族裔公司來使用那當然這過程很複雜但總之就是讓這個上海族裔公司再把這個門號提供給詐騙集團詐騙集團再來詐騙我們台灣的民眾到了今年都還有這樣的事情當然去年還有另外一間叫做這個海峽電信公司也是用同樣的手段來做這些事情所以今天要問的是我想問中華電信還有問我們部長"},{"start":219.724,"end":234.209,"text":"如果未來還有相關的業務中華電信要不要負連帶賠償責任以及中華電信你們有沒有去清查過在這個二類電信終止之後有多少公司到現在還跟中華電信有合作關係"},{"start":236.913,"end":254.893,"text":"報告委員．有關中華電信．跟MVNO業者相關的合作規範．都是依照通常會的規範來辦理．陳路委員剛才提到前年2021年之後．電信法轉軌到電信管理法．"},{"start":255.453,"end":282.467,"text":"那麼相關的業者在申請轉軌過程當中繼續在向這個通傳會在申請這個執照當中那麼我們目前這個合作的範圍呢並沒有收到任何這個各自外洩的議題那麼剛才委員所提到的這個相關的內容呢據我們目前的了解是並不是中華電信或者是魔方這個銷售出去的"},{"start":282.887,"end":283.788,"text":"於林地檢署的起訴文件提到"},{"start":298.938,"end":315.149,"text":"檢察官偵辦的這個魔方移動他就是向中華電信申請經驗門號當然他最後賣出去他不是用魔方移動來賣他是就轉給所謂台灣左翼跟上海左翼來賣給這個詐騙集團當然導致了詐騙行為這個偵辦部門是因為去查這個電信門號才發現了這一層關係所以當然中華電信沒有直接賣給詐騙集團我知道"},{"start":326.533,"end":347.006,"text":"中華電信賣個魔方移動,魔方移動再賣個臺灣卓一,臺灣卓一再賣個上海卓一,上海卓一再賣個詐騙集團他經過了多層,所以當然你們沒有直接關係嘛,但我今天要問你說今天既然已經知道像這個魔方移動有這樣子的案子出現那他也已經被NCC廢止相關的使用執照,中華電信還會繼續跟這樣業者合作嗎?未來還會繼續合作嗎?我知道你不會跟他合作啦"},{"start":351.869,"end":375.018,"text":"第二個那個剛才提到的議題齁那個中華電線銷售給魔方的門號只能在國外使用那麼這個相關國外使用的剛才您提到那個上海那個個案那個我們的了解是不是魔方銷售出去的那個部分是另外的這個銷售的管道出去的所以你們意思說你們現在如果魔方連中跟你們買你們還是會賣給他"},{"start":376.644,"end":390.133,"text":"這個部分我們如果相關的跟業者合作有涉及到任何疑似詐欺的部分我們都會嚴謹來積極處理謝謝委員指教部長我想這個詐騙不是只有檢調單位的責任我想檢調也常常抱怨說很無力"},{"start":395.336,"end":395.356,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":411.624,"end":411.884,"text":"檢查官提到"},{"start":428.266,"end":456.611,"text":"模仿移動和類似這種二類電信公司就是跟你們承租承租完之後再轉手賣給其他業者那他去做其他的操作最後再回過頭來詐騙所以我們現在強調說相關的法令我們希望中華電信跟交通部這邊應該去研擬起來如果已經被廢紙執照了如果他有相關的案例出現他就不應該再去做這個這樣子應用而不是說對中華電信來講我沒差我賣給模仿移動他沒有騙人是模仿移動賣給其他公司其他公司去騙人的"},{"start":457.212,"end":459.6,"text":"這樣不對啊,我們希望今天做的是源頭控管"},{"start":460.509,"end":460.609,"text":"主席"},{"start":490.589,"end":514.996,"text":"你們第一當然我在強調的是模方移動他的確沒有直接的騙人他是把東西賣給別人讓別人來騙那這個行為到底跟中華電信有沒有關係因為你們是這個關股所以我們才特別提出來不能因為中華電信你們掌握的門號數你們掌握的個資比其他電信公司來的更多更直接而且大家可能也信任中華電信所以這部分我們希望還是要提一個完整的方案好"},{"start":515.476,"end":544.656,"text":"接下來我們還提到這兩天淘機跑到稅休導致航班大亂的問題我們看到說這個排名下降的時候2022年降到67名2023年到82名的時候這個淘機公司當初回應講說未來會積極的相關協調相關業務來共同努力優化經濟從整體服務、林外交通、便利通關等等來改善提升大家的旅客服務的滿意度但是馬上就發生了這兩天的這個事件我想這個"},{"start":545.956,"end":564.508,"text":"在交通上我想這個塔台跟淘氣公司這邊是不是沒有做一個做足這個準備還是維持原來的管制措施從我們收到的資料來看到原定的這個規定當然是120秒放飛一次那因為塞機之後你們才去調整調整成90秒跟60秒放飛有沒有這個事情"},{"start":567.579,"end":568.66,"text":"飛行管理程序"},{"start":581.972,"end":581.992,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":611.847,"end":623.084,"text":"主委長時間不夠了這個下一頁我們桃園機場的這個作業要點裡面單跑到的時候每小時離道場總架次最大是每小時30架次但是我們根據預報表看到"},{"start":624.296,"end":645.646,"text":"3月3日當天有685架次最密集的時候是46架那等於你們的這個航管要點參考用的嘛單跑道本來說只用每小時30架次但是在3月3日當天最大的時間的時候685架最大的這個離場架次達到46架那不就表示說你們這個SOP是參考用而已嗎"},{"start":647.465,"end":665.463,"text":"我想這一個所謂的離場航班的一個調整這個部分其實要分開來講就是說如果你這個是例行的稅休其實你在前面需要去考慮到說一個尖峰小時大概剛剛講兩分鐘來算大概是30架單跑道"},{"start":666.084,"end":682.619,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":682.927,"end":701.852,"text":"響鈴"},{"start":701.852,"end":701.912,"text":"黃委員發言完畢"}]}},{"id":"149352","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149352","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f35abc28c27dcbb1452d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a67f835724aeec88dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"09:44:37 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09:55:26","影片長度":"00:10:49","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-06","duration":649,"end_time":"2024-03-06T09:55:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-06T09:44:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":273,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（9時44分）謝謝召委，一樣麻煩我們的部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["廖委員先翔：部長，今天一樣先來跟您討論行人的問題。行人在我們的交通法規當中大概是一個行人的族群，但是其實行人也是非常的多元，包括我們每一位都是行人，有一般的成年人、有銀髮族、有拄拐杖的、有推輪椅的、有小朋友會亂跑的，對不對？相對起來，我們的銀髮族走在人行道的時候，他相對走得比較慢一點，可能被碰撞受傷的可能性也比較高一點，相對起來是比較脆弱一點的。我們有沒有曾經考慮過在人行道規劃一個銀髮族的專區？請我們的銀髮族走在特定的區域，請他們不要走在其他的地方，我們交通部有這樣子考慮過嗎？"],["王部長國材：是，跟委員報告，我們目前大概是這樣，第一個，因為人行道是共用。"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["王部長國材：當然，第一點就是把實體人行道做出來，所以我們現在有4年400億的預算，真的很歡迎各縣市來申請，我們就趕快來補助。但是我們現在對於比如說銀髮族常出入的以及學校這附近，有一個計劃專門在做這方面，比如說他的……"],["廖委員先翔：我想問部長，有沒有去思考過做區隔這件事情？"],["王部長國材：有點困難，因為在人行道上，不管你的速度快慢都在那邊走。"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["王部長國材：當然過去我們討論到比如腳踏車應該分離這件事，但是一般來講是整體是……"],["廖委員先翔：共用。"],["王部長國材：但是比如在醫院，老人家出入……"],["廖委員先翔：共用，畫出來甚至可能會有歧視的問題，對不對？"],["王部長國材：也不是歧視，好像沒有那麼必要，因為它的速差沒有差那麼多。"],["廖委員先翔：我現在就要請教部長，既然我們在人行道有不同的族群在上面使用，我們不會要求不同的族群去使用不同的範圍，大家都共用，為什麼在我們的道路規劃使用上有那麼多的禁行機車？"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，這個問題我已經跟很多人都談過，禁行機車不是歧視機車族或是對他不公平，因為在過去的研究裡面，當車種分離的時候是比較安全的，因為……"],["廖委員先翔：剛剛講人行道的部分，老人家跟小孩子分開走也比較安全，你要不要讓老人家自己走一個通道？"],["王部長國材：人跟人之間的差異比較少。"],["廖委員先翔：小朋友會亂跑，對不對？"],["王部長國材：這個速差比較少……"],["廖委員先翔：撞到也會受傷。"],["王部長國材：但是機車和汽車它的差異大，這什麼意思？汽車撞到機車，機車一倒受傷都是很嚴重，所以過去的確是這樣。但是我跟廖委員報告，我們現在也有做一個檢討，針對去年給各縣市的指引。"],["廖委員先翔：是。"],["王部長國材：就是說如果機車騎在外側，有很多的公車，像新北很多這種公車或是重車，這時候只要超過每小時170輛，我們就認為它的內側應該開放給機車走。"],["廖委員先翔：所以不建車道？"],["王部長國材：我們也有這樣一個權宜措施，並不是叫它完全分隔。"],["廖委員先翔：指引出來了嗎？"],["王部長國材：給了。"],["廖委員先翔：已經給地方政府了？"],["王部長國材：給地方政府了。"],["廖委員先翔：就是當我們外側車道的車輛……"],["王部長國材：大型車如果1小時170輛以上。"],["廖委員先翔：大型車？"],["王部長國材：包括公車或是貨車等等。"],["廖委員先翔：還要大型車？"],["王部長國材：大型對機車的影響比較嚴重。"],["廖委員先翔：因為一直以來我們地方政府有時候在推動交通平權，包括機車行使權益的時候，因為我們的道路交通安全規則第九十九條的規定，常常會不敢開放。交通部長期以來應該也收到許多民間團體的陳情。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["廖委員先翔：這部分有沒有做過討論要來把它做適度放寬？"],["王部長國材：廖委員，我一點都不是說機車要……我現在是從安全來看，比如包括他們在談的兩段式左轉。過去的研究兩段式左轉是比較安全的，可是我剛才談到的重車很多，他要兩段式左轉在跑的過程中，可能會跟重車有衝突，我們覺得他就是直接左轉。所以我的意思是，對於機車，我們並不是完全的車種分離，但是要看哪一個比較安全。所以我們也給地方政府一個指引，如果你去看真的是開放機車走內線車道比較安全，你就應該開放，我們也給這樣一個指引，現在包括像新北，很多很多已經這樣做了。"],["廖委員先翔：好，如果地方政府認為開放內側車道比較安全的話……"],["王部長國材：就是可以權宜措施。"],["廖委員先翔：可以權宜措施？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["廖委員先翔：那為什麼是原則禁止、例外開放，而不是原則開放、例外禁止？"],["王部長國材：因為你知道原則開放的話，每個人都說你為什麼禁止我？"],["廖委員先翔：對啊，因為危險禁止，對不對？合理嘛！但是你沒有辦法說它不安全的情況下……你的意思就是說機車行駛在不同車道，它會不安全，所以你去禁止它，我們現在是「原則禁止，例外開放」，對不對？"],["王部長國材：對。"],["廖委員先翔：有沒有機會調整成「原則開放，例外禁止」？"],["王部長國材：原則開放，例外禁止，就是地方政府在實施這個政策的時候，就變成要去解釋我為什麼要禁止。你知道……"],["廖委員先翔：對啊！"],["王部長國材：不是，這政策上它會比較不好……"],["廖委員先翔：為什麼禁止？因為你說安全嘛，對不對？結果現在要你例外禁止的時候，你又提不出理由，是不是？"],["王部長國材：不是，原則禁止，例外開放，就是我的政策是禁止……"],["廖委員先翔：對啊！"],["王部長國材：但是例外如果更安全就開放。"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["王部長國材：你現在是原則開放，例外禁止，那你就要去講為什麼要禁止，你知道嗎？"],["廖委員先翔：因為你們剛剛說，機車行駛在內側車道，它是相對危險的，對不對？是吧？"],["王部長國材：如果外面，比如說外側沒有重車的時候，我們是覺得車種分離是比較安全的，應該是這樣。"],["廖委員先翔：那一樣，你就可以訂定你們的指導原則，怎樣的情況下是危險的狀況，我們建議地方政府在某種情況下禁行機車，有沒有可能？"],["王部長國材：是，我們給它一個指引是重車的輛數，我們也給它一個彈性，比如說縱然重車沒有到170輛，它覺得整個路型來看……"],["廖委員先翔：這個就是把責任推給地方政府啦！"],["王部長國材：不是。"],["廖委員先翔：地方政府又要去扛這個責任。"],["王部長國材：廖委員我跟你報告，比如說每個選舉的縣市長，對於縣市的交通安全，他有他想要做的事，你知道嗎？議員也一樣、立委也一樣，你如果……"],["廖委員先翔：對，所以當然可以禁止，我們依照標誌標線的規則，當然可以禁止啊！你認為危險你禁止啊！"],["王部長國材：而且如果不因地制宜，那個type太多了。"],["廖委員先翔：我沒有說不能因地制宜，我說你認為危險，你可以禁止，那為什麼不是原則開放？"],["王部長國材：我們政策是原則……"],["廖委員先翔：你要去限制人民的自由，應該是另外要有絕對的理由，才能去禁止人民通行的自由，對不對？"],["王部長國材：對，就是安全。"],["廖委員先翔：安全，對啊！所以我說你可以因為安全的理由，地方政府去規劃禁行機車，對不對？政府不能無緣無故訂一個上位計畫，在怎樣的條件之下就要禁止，應該原則上是我們不能夠去限制他們的使用，但是如果我們在規劃的時候，認為這樣子現況是危險的，我們可以來做調整，對不對？我們可以禁止啊！這兩個方向應該是不一樣的！"],["王部長國材：對。"],["廖委員先翔：這對機車的平權應該也是比較正向的吧？比較沒有歧視的意味在。"],["王部長國材：我們的政策的確是車種分離，現在政策是這樣，車種分離就是「原則禁止，例外開放」。"],["廖委員先翔：那就是你們政策錯誤啊！"],["王部長國材：沒有。"],["廖委員先翔：你們還在交通事故零死亡？每年那麼多人在外面發生機車事故死亡。"],["王部長國材：廖委員，如果你剛才談的這個政策一變能改善的話，我也可以接受，但問題是大家分析不是這樣。"],["廖委員先翔：哪個分析？臺北市做了那麼多的分析，對不對？好，沒關係，時間有限，我們進入下一個議題，一樣是行人的權益。我們在112年12月15號的時候有頒發道路交通安全法，剛剛部長有報告，對不對？"],["王部長國材：對。"],["廖委員先翔：道路安全法的第一條，很明確的寫「以達道路交通事故零死亡願景」，我請教一下部長，我們法頒布之後應該是很認真在推動，而禮拜一我們召開的一個說明會「交通微罪不記點，民眾不得舉發」，這件事情也是我們道路交通安全法推行的一部分嗎？"],["王部長國材：這個是在……"],["廖委員先翔：你認為剛剛我們說明會這樣子的一個方向，對我們邁向零死亡這件事情，是有幫助的嗎？"],["王部長國材：這是一個暫時的權宜措施，就是說我道路交通的環境還沒整……"],["廖委員先翔：人命有暫時的措施嗎？你可以說你先去死一死，改天再回來嗎？"],["王部長國材：可是廖委員，你看到最近、包括剛才所有的來看，民怨說他沒辦法停車，造成了記點，所以現在要把它調整……"],["廖委員先翔：人命跟這一些東西比較起來熟輕熟重，應該很明顯不用去比較吧？"],["王部長國材：對。"],["廖委員先翔：其實現在交通檢舉的項目已經大幅的限縮，一般的紅黃線沒辦法檢舉，都是重大的違規才能夠檢舉了。所以一般職業駕駛遇到的問題，現在已經不太容易遇到了，民眾沒辦法檢舉了！現在會遇到的問題是什麼？你停在人行道上面，民眾也沒辦法檢舉，對不對？我其他真的不在乎啦！你在馬路上有一些行為，有時候大家在路上違規暫停一下，今天我擋你、改天你擋我，其實駕駛人都還接受，今天你是牽扯到另外一個族群耶！我希望我們未來不管怎麼調整記點制度，行人這部分的權益一定要捍衛，只要有妨礙行人的權益，一定要讓民眾能夠檢舉，一定要有相關的處罰機制，才能夠捍衛行人的權益。"],["王部長國材：我跟廖委員報告，我們禮拜四新方案通過會送到立法院，在立法院還可以討論，就是說哪些要開放，我想這部分我們再來討論。"],["廖委員先翔：好，我的立場很清楚，行人的權益這一塊絕對不能放掉，好，謝謝。"],["王部長國材：對，安全第一，是。"],["主席：廖委員發言完畢。現在請黃健豪委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","廖先翔","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","游顥","萬美玲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","高金素梅","王鴻薇","李柏毅","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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選舉的縣市長對於縣市的交通安全他有他想要做的事議員也一樣所以我們當然可以禁止我們依照標誌標籤的規則我們當然可以禁止你認為危險你禁止而且這樣如果我們不因地制宜那個type太多了我沒有說不能因地制宜我說你認為危險你可以禁止但為什麼不是原則開放"},{"start":433.988,"end":449.066,"text":"這是我們的政策是沿著你要去限制人民的自由你應該是要另外有絕對的理由你才能去禁止人民的這個通行的自由嘛對不對就是安全對啊所以我說你可以因為安全的理由地方政府去規劃進行機車啊"},{"start":451.223,"end":465.275,"text":"對不對你政府不能無緣無故定在一個上位計畫就在怎樣的條件就要禁止應該是要說我們不能夠去限制他們的使用原則上但是如果說我們在規劃的時候認為這樣子危險現況是危險的我們可以來做調整啊"},{"start":470.172,"end":490.812,"text":"我們可以禁止啊這兩個方向應該是不一樣的嘛對機車的平權應該也是比較正向的吧也是比較沒有歧視的意味在我們的政策的確是車種分離啊現在的政策是這樣車種分離就是沿著禁止例外開放那就是你們政策錯誤啊造成還在交通事故零死亡"},{"start":491.613,"end":509.52,"text":"每年那麼多人計測在外面發生事故事吧如果你剛才談的這個政策一變的話能改善我也可以接受但是問題是大家分析不是這樣台北市做了那麼多的分析對不對好沒關係喔時間有限我進行下一個議題喔"},{"start":510.959,"end":534.452,"text":"一樣是行人的權益我們在112年12月5號的時候有頒發剛剛部長有報告道路交通安全法對不對那道路安全法的第一條就很明確的寫以達道路交通事故臨死亡的願景那請教一下部長這個我們這個法頒布之後我們應該是很認真在推動"},{"start":535.433,"end":563.587,"text":"那禮拜一我們召開了一個說明會交通違罪不計點且民眾不得計點不得舉發這件事情也是我們道路交通安全法推行的一部分嗎?你認為剛剛我們說明會這樣子的一個方向對於我們邁向臨死亡這件事情是有幫助的嗎?這個是一個暫時的一個權益措施就是說我道路交通的環境還沒整人命是有暫時的措施嗎?"},{"start":564.79,"end":581.897,"text":"你可以說你先去死一死改天再回來嗎可是那個廖委員你看到最近剛才包括所有的在看就是說包括民營院他沒辦法停車造成了祭典人命跟這些東西比較起來孰輕孰重應該很明顯不用去比較吧"},{"start":584.593,"end":605.744,"text":"現在在交通檢舉的項目已經大幅的限縮一般的紅黃線沒辦法檢舉都是重大的違規才能夠檢舉的所以一般我們職業駕駛遇到的問題其實現在已經不太容易遇到了民眾沒辦法檢舉了嘛那現在會遇到的問題是什麼你停在人行道上面民眾也沒辦法檢舉啊對不對我其他真的不在乎啦你在馬路上有一些行為有時候"},{"start":607.808,"end":631.518,"text":"羅威大家違規暫停一下我擋你改天你擋我其實駕駛人都還接受今天是你是牽扯到另外一族群我希望我們未來不管怎麼調整未來你不管怎麼調整祭典制度行人這一部分的權益一定要捍衛只要有妨礙行人的權益一定要能夠讓民眾能夠檢舉一定要有相關的處罰機制才能夠捍衛行人的權益"},{"start":631.718,"end":632.719,"text":"新登的權益這塊絕對不能放掉"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}