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2377.547,"text":"公平嚴正執行法律推動柔性司法貫徹公義與關懷提升司法衛信展現反貪腐決心建立溫暖而富有同理心的司法進行各位委員持續督促與指教謝謝"},{"start":2381.873,"end":2394.377,"text":"報告完畢那相關書面報告內容請各位參閱並且會列入公報記錄先做宣告今天委員提出臨時提案那本會依據往例在登記質詢的本會委員"},{"start":2396.918,"end":2412.619,"text":"發言告一個段落後處理那現在時間預計應該是會在早上的11點整處理如果屆時有委員還在詢答的話那我們就會等到該位委員詢答完畢之後我們再馬上進行臨時提案的處理"},{"start":2413.9,"end":2419.242,"text":"本會委員尋答時間8分鐘,必要延長2分鐘非本會委員尋答時間5分鐘,時間不得延長上午10點30分截止發言登記"},{"start":2431.926,"end":2431.966,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":2456.015,"end":2484.626,"text":"對於檢察官在第一線辦案的辛苦對於調查人員在第一線辦案的辛苦我想本委員會的委員大家都感同身受這是為什麼我們對於強力的支持檢察官跟調查同仁執法實現社會正義把這些壞人審之以法我們一向是高度支持的本黨團針對檢察官要的檢察官助理我們已經正式提案了"},{"start":2485.629,"end":2504.538,"text":"今天我跟所有在座司法法制委員會的委員針對檢查體系從檢察官檢察事務官檢察官助理書記官乃至於最基層最辛苦的法警針對人力全面的盤整跟調整我們也提出了臨時提案"},{"start":2505.558,"end":2524.371,"text":"我一開始跟部長報告這件事情是希望部長能夠清楚的瞭解我們對於檢察官對調查局的支持因為執法的權利在他們手上只有他們有效的發揮他們的權能我們才能夠達到打擊步伐的目的"},{"start":2525.441,"end":2550.439,"text":"但話說回來如果今天有少數的害群之馬敗壞整個檢察官跟調查員的形象傷害人民對於司法的信任我們絕對沒有辦法容忍因此延續著上一次我們在總質詢的時候我跟部長所請教的檢察官"},{"start":2552.102,"end":2580.944,"text":"逃到洗錢販的招待所後來洗錢販逃掉了因為警察問檢察官要不要留人檢察官說不用把他放掉了我上次在總質詢的時候問部長說縱放洗錢販的檢察官赴招待所他面臨了什麼樣的懲處那個時候部長跟我說你們有送檢察院我後來請你們會後調資料給我你們根本沒有送檢察院啊"},{"start":2582.156,"end":2587.922,"text":"是監察院問你們問題的時候你們回覆監察院的問題這樣叫做你們有送監察院"},{"start":2591.229,"end":2617.457,"text":"恩委員說明送監察院包括我們主動的移送包括我們資料送給他因為我們知道他已經有案了他已經在調查中了那當然我們把我們手中相關的資料應他的要求提供給他同樣達到在監察院處理當中這樣子叫做你們有移送監察院喔沒有關係啦部長以後要這樣子硬拗沒有關係大家聽得下去聽不下去心裡都有一把尺"},{"start":2623.019,"end":2640.724,"text":"法務部針對88會館有堅定追究到底的決心你們說對於檢察官形象要用最高的標準來追究請問現在到底追究了什麼責任"},{"start":2643.306,"end":2670.504,"text":"該附的刑事責任跟行政責任我們已經也依照相關的規定該要送到懲戒法院接受懲戒法院的處理我們也送了該送到檢察官審議委員會人審會我們也送了送到檢察官評卷委員會的決議是評卷不成立嗎"},{"start":2671.665,"end":2689.775,"text":"這件事情我公開批判過了社會也有公認嘛對好那送到評選委員會不成立了以後送到人審會以後呢做了什麼處理因為人審會是包括民選的跟官方代表那我尊重他們的處理結果可以把處理的結果跟社會大眾講嗎可以啊"},{"start":2694.296,"end":2721.358,"text":"作為他做了什麼處理那平健委員會他是個別對每一個不同的人我剛已經說過平健委員會了嘛平健委員會就平健不成立所以我公開批判嘛那平健委員會說要送人審會啊我現在問你人審會怎麼處理嘛這個問題有這麼難理解嗎所以人審會做了什麼處理那就看每一個不同的人他有做不同的處理嘛對啊啊針對平健不成立的那個人審會都做了什麼處理"},{"start":2723.476,"end":2742.592,"text":"你指的是哪一位 那我們就告訴你王徒芝王徒芝他要求我們送給他們做監督行政監督所以最後人審會的決議是行政監督嗎對好 沒有關係這樣的結果大家可不可以接受這個要接受社會公平的啦"},{"start":2742.932,"end":2747.976,"text":"再接下來88案調查報告是是是跟我來講啦我標準跟部長說清楚一點部長我跟你說清楚啦兩個都嚴重啦"},{"start":2764.668,"end":2764.948,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2783.444,"end":2809.023,"text":"跟我該說的話我不是都說完了嗎我會把你的意見轉給委員會上一個八八案調查報告八八案調查報告行政調查報告我清楚的點出來了公然說謊我為什麼說公然說謊行事責任歸行事責任行政責任歸行政責任你們從新北地檢署到高檢署所公布的行政調查報告說"},{"start":2811.676,"end":2833.815,"text":"現場招待所沒有經理或業者進入現場沒有服務人員我後來去徹查了整個接受訪談的人訪談的人很清楚的說有喔昨天是檢警來的都是小明就是郭澤民他招待的三個人服務在現場倒酒親桌面點歌"},{"start":2834.861,"end":2843.088,"text":"啊你們行政調查報告竟然說沒有人在那邊服務那顯然是說謊啊這樣子的行政調查報告到底誰要負責"},{"start":2845.854,"end":2857.201,"text":"當時是則由高檢署他們來做行政的調查那這個高檢署調查的結論法務部的立場當然予以尊重當然他們的調查由他們來負責任他們書面也對外面有做說明了那所以上一個"},{"start":2867.208,"end":2882.705,"text":"八八匯廣案法務部堅定追究到底的決心行政的部分該處理的要處理所謂堅定追究到底的決心現在高檢署行政調查報告出包了你們的決心就是由高檢署來回應嗎"},{"start":2884.448,"end":2904.141,"text":"他沒有粗暴他是按照法律的規定按照事實的狀況來做那我就很清楚的跟你講嘛他上面寫的跟人家在訪談時候的筆錄就不一致啊現場操辦人都承認啊現場操辦人都承認然後你們給社會的調查報告可以說現場沒有人服務呃 內容這樣子的行政調查報告不用接受監督嗎"},{"start":2911.55,"end":2936.878,"text":"那我想高檢署他也聽到委員的聲音如果需要再深入調查他應該還是我們就接下來就靜待高檢署的回應RMB的案子2016年起法務部調查局已經立案了我把整個歷程我查完了我清楚的列在上面部長可以看調查局局長也可以看2016年法務部調查局"},{"start":2938.462,"end":2943.948,"text":"就已經立案了結果到2017年2018年2019年2021年不斷有人去檢舉不斷有人去製作筆錄結果什麼偵查作為都沒有"},{"start":2953.348,"end":2964.7,"text":"害人越來越多雪球越滾越大一直到一直到2023年的時候才接手才接手由台北地檢署來繼續來加以偵辦對於2016年2017年2018年"},{"start":2972.508,"end":2982.732,"text":"這麼多的被害人跑去檢舉也做了筆錄完全沒有查出來導致被害人越來越多這樣子的偵辦表現來請問部長滿意嗎呃我也尊重調查局好來請調查局的局長請調查局的對你們都上去啦"},{"start":2994.027,"end":3020.965,"text":"你們的順序啦就是從17年18年19年一路有人去檢舉檢舉完了做了筆錄沒有進行的偵查作為導致被害人越來越多大概2023年的時候才處理調查局局長這樣子的偵辦品質你滿意嗎是跟委員報告這個IMB這個案子我們受理之後我們調查官他們有持續的在進行偵辦是然後持續偵辦了多久"},{"start":3026.227,"end":3044.494,"text":"我每一個列的時間啊那個都是我去查的我一筆一筆列出來那個都是客觀的事實現在我只請局長評論啊這樣子調查的結果你身為調查局的局長這樣子調查的品質跟效率你滿不滿意"},{"start":3045.154,"end":3054.662,"text":"我先停一下啦有沒有積極的進行這件事情我建議局長自己把你們調查局調查的卷抓出來看就知道到底有積極還是沒有積極我現在要看部長跟局長講的是什麼"},{"start":3074.163,"end":3097.537,"text":"2017、2018、2019、2021不斷有人去檢舉不斷有人去投訴卻沒有實際的偵辦作為一直拖到什麼2023年等到台北地檢署癥結的時候來我把吸睛的時間很清楚的給你們看這台北地檢署公開的起訴書從2016年開始不發吸睛雪球越滾越大雪球越滾越大結果導致了什麼"},{"start":3098.577,"end":3125.476,"text":"導致了越來越多人的受害現在這些受害人他們要一個公道他們在問當初為什麼不積極偵辦導致這麼多人越來越來越受害面對這樣子的狀況作為部長作為局長能夠是一句我們尊重基層檢調人員的偵辦就可以了事的嗎面對這些被害人部長局長有沒有什麼想說的"},{"start":3128.054,"end":3145.139,"text":"這個案子如果我們行政辦案同仁有任何的疏失或是不夠積極我們會努力的改進而且以此為例那希望每一個案件都要非常的重視我想不是改進跟以此為例而已這件事情需不需要檢討我們可以隨時檢討任何徐長你認為這件事情需不需要檢討"},{"start":3154.21,"end":3170.817,"text":"我們認為當然是需要檢討啦那最主要因為它是一個新型態的這種犯罪啦那對於偵辦的人員而言他也不是那麼熟悉這種犯罪的模式所以我們也不斷的也跟金管會那邊在聯繫接觸然後有些被害人找來的時候"},{"start":3176.059,"end":3193.845,"text":"我只講一個最簡單的問題就好了你們在偵辦的時候知不知道曾耀峰是通緝犯不會連這個都不知道吧知不知道曾耀峰是通緝犯這個是名字一打下去就知道的事情欸知不知道曾耀峰是通緝犯"},{"start":3195.678,"end":3219.245,"text":"這個要繼續往上追往上追沒有沒有不用往上追阿人家比率就具體的點名他啦知不知道他是通緝犯我只問這個最簡單的問題嘛要尊重基層檢調人員的偵辦我都同意阿但現在偵辦告一個段落了我們不能針對偵辦的過程拿出來檢討嗎拖了6年多被害人多了這麼多被害的金額多了這麼多"},{"start":3222.228,"end":3244.058,"text":"剛局長說大家很認真很努力我同意阿但問題是這藥封是通緝犯這件事情大局當初在偵辦的時候沒有辦出來嗎所以我們現在齁是只要罪犯改了名字以後我們七成的調查人員就查不出來局長你的意思是這樣嗎"},{"start":3246.591,"end":3254.514,"text":"所以我現在的問題又回來了請針對問題回答他是通緝犯那件事情當初偵辦的時候當初偵辦的時候知不知道太離譜了啦我為什麼說太離譜了那個祖賢是個通緝犯欸拖了6年欸"},{"start":3267.165,"end":3296.762,"text":"沒有具體的偵查作為被害人越來越多了連那個通緝犯都沒有去把他抓起來讓他在外面跟政商權貴剛愁交錯局長你同意這件事情要檢討嗎是我同意要檢討好好 謝謝那我們我們請下一位委員謝龍介發言感謝主席 部長你好委員你好"},{"start":3298.207,"end":3315.993,"text":"我請教一下因為今夏事件連國際都矚目那金門地檢署這個案子什麼時候可以甄決跟委員說明金門地檢署在第一時間他們就分難而且參與了因為你可以發揮一個關鍵的你知道嗎我知道有人出來事件調查明確大家可以沉澱下來對不對"},{"start":3325.596,"end":3343.547,"text":"對阿所以第一時間他們就有參與阿你說常常可以結案齁這個我沒辦法跟你講這個不是很複雜的案件啦不是叫你去執意是什麼如果檢察官都沒有辦法有這種敏感度有啦阿有什麼時候什麼時候我沒辦法跟他說啦我可以說禁訴只禁訴而已好我請教你"},{"start":3348.306,"end":3352.69,"text":"法務部要派什麼人代表法務部出席死刑伺火違憲的辯論?"},{"start":3374.87,"end":3381.341,"text":"有我們的代表也有檢察機關的代表也有推薦的學者代表當事人知道了嗎"},{"start":3382.418,"end":3385.019,"text":"我們的立場就是說跟過去一般的對於死刑就是依法執行"},{"start":3408.103,"end":3414.707,"text":"法律上已經就緒程序完結我就照法律來執行,如果在就緒當中我就沒辦法,如果在就緒當中我就執行兩位兩件有一段時間,但是其他因為程序還在走"},{"start":3431.457,"end":3433.358,"text":"有沒有收到任何總統府或是行政院來指示法務部在憲法法庭辯論的時候"},{"start":3457.532,"end":3475.83,"text":"你要放水或是打假球沒有有沒有都沒有好來美國的一部分的州韓國日本新加坡他們都有死刑的規定那請問我們的死刑規定是違反了憲法哪一條"},{"start":3477.128,"end":3484.831,"text":"我請問你 憲法有違反嗎?有違反嗎?違反沒有啦 因為沒規定這行東西嘛這是刑事訴訟嘛 你現在說沒有嘛 有什麼先進國家的施行他就沒有違憲那我們的國家的死刑卻可能違憲 所以要辯論嘛"},{"start":3501.974,"end":3522.962,"text":"因為有人申請嘛,把憲法法院申請說你對這個憲法法定你去辯論有信心嗎?有啊,我對我的同仁絕對有信心有信心我們比賽看結果不然你是否同意認同說要不要執行死刑然後跟憲法死刑有沒有違憲這是兩回事"},{"start":3525.247,"end":3527.088,"text":"那如果憲法法庭這次宣告違憲"},{"start":3551.736,"end":3559.35,"text":"就宣告違憲嘛那請問現在判決確定的這些死情況是不是要馬上釋放"},{"start":3561.37,"end":3561.971,"text":"沒啦沒?沒"},{"start":3591.308,"end":3606.512,"text":"重新審理啊重新審理他就是 啊沒多他就是沒多啦 你變成再給他改啦那不是沒多 他要判什麼刑判什麼刑 那我告訴你啦那有的都要判二十年超過啦 你也剛好 這樣又不用綁出來有可能判不基督刑啊 那有可能又綁對不對判不基督刑為什麼不能綁啦"},{"start":3617.148,"end":3633.779,"text":"我沒有去投票 為什麼不能投票我告訴你 你要有義務要先跟國人講清楚啦如果宣告死刑違憲 那現在發私刑這些人有可能就是馬上要投票 歡迎東庭來幫你投票 我告訴你那是歡迎 他要考慮啦不是歡迎 你有義務跟法省說嘛 要給法庭安寧嘛"},{"start":3643.26,"end":3666.699,"text":"因為你這樣標示你不必辯護啊你不說要支持私刑、廢毒我沒說支持不支持,我是依法執行我們在說這個就是我透過我的新聞你的立場嘛所以不要這樣啦這是一個在台灣百姓以上大家的犯罪尤其現在地安詐騙這麼多地安詐騙不會破私刑但是這個廢毒私刑會讓人民覺得說我們對這個犯罪是在裝磅"},{"start":3671.064,"end":3682.414,"text":"法務部委員會不會這樣?法務部委員會很清楚如果宣告以前是違憲請問現在市委宣告違憲這次的法官違憲是現在宣告以後才違憲還是以前就違憲?"},{"start":3694.343,"end":3694.543,"text":"為什麼以前不違憲現在變成違憲"},{"start":3708.029,"end":3710.95,"text":"他如果說本來就違憲 那我請問你 違憲嘛 假如結果是 結果是違憲嘛 那我請問你 他才讓我們省省一行去的那四行要怎麼辦"},{"start":3735.882,"end":3736.982,"text":"我請問你 這些人可以救責嗎?"},{"start":3766.878,"end":3775.827,"text":"看每一宗案件的情形,如果有發生判決違法,要就緝嗎?你態度要清楚,我沒有騙你,我是在保護你,台灣人民是很關心你的。憲法法庭這條,我現在請教你,婚姻"},{"start":3790.748,"end":3798.135,"text":"總統府有沒有發公文要法務部研議陳水扁前總統的特赦案?"},{"start":3808.229,"end":3815.833,"text":"總統府有沒有找部長去開會研議陳水扁特殊案?沒有沒有?沒有?你最清楚喔?沒有啊有沒有我最清楚啊?你以為有沒有?沒有以為?以為沒有啊你說以為是什麼事情你看"},{"start":3834.005,"end":3834.346,"text":"有人跟我說有啦"},{"start":3853.488,"end":3857.15,"text":"現在的政務官,現在的政務官,你們的政務官裡面,他看不到,你一天做這麼嚴重的事,人家才會看不到,醫治社民法,大陸掉了"},{"start":3869.163,"end":3884.017,"text":"總統特赦前可以命令行政院轉達法務部演繹特赦請問部長總統府有要法務部演繹嗎?有透過行政院轉達演繹嗎?現在有沒有透過行政院要你演繹?沒有這麼重要的事情你都沒有在演繹"},{"start":3893.325,"end":3900.19,"text":"因為這是特色是總統的特權你們討論的過程是特色陳水扁一個人還是特色一批人啊沒這回事啦現在目前沒這回事我告訴你 有你現在告訴我沒有啊還是沒有啊啊接下來阿兵之後那些財產要怎麼處理 你們有討論啦所以為什麼說藐視國會"},{"start":3917.816,"end":3939.949,"text":"要來升職就是這樣 今天是剛好沒這條罪 如果有就補充 像我們兩個 我就會發脾氣 但是我不會嘛 因為我的人受用性很好沒有接受這個通緝 但是你說研究 我們隨時都在研究 執行的案件我們也是隨時都要掌握嘛總統府就是有 有給你討論 我如果沒抽誰來玩 我不會在這裡跟你講"},{"start":3941.35,"end":3951.994,"text":"但是不是要給你攔戶,我是跟你說這事情是金錢啦,因為這卡到怎樣,阿兵會卸掉那些財產要怎樣?阿來卸,他卸掉他存的那些案件要怎樣?阿不信的那些案件要怎樣?對不對?再來,那些錢要怎樣處理?阿卸是要卸單位兵一個人,還是要卸一倍的人?你們有討論,討論我不是叫你給我答案嘛"},{"start":3966.118,"end":3975.665,"text":"本來就是跟你說 講對這個問題就是要十分謹慎啦社會 我也沒有反對 但是怎樣第一個 他不道歉 不還錢你現在覺得 其實我是絕對反對老大嘛請嘆他認罪這樣對其他的人要怎麼交代一個道歉 把台灣一個道歉你道歉 認錯 輕情"},{"start":3994.653,"end":4008.454,"text":"要怎麼解決你們家的事?合情合理,因為做過元宿啦,我們隊伍特別的待遇,也合情合理啦,到今天沒悔改之心,你怎麼提到再改善的解決?"},{"start":4009.727,"end":4011.528,"text":"我們接下來請陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":4041.257,"end":4065.627,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位列席的主管 各位 大家早安 大家好部長我想請教一下 我們現在電信的這個詐騙案猖獗那在近年來我們這個詐騙的案子層出不窮那政府如何有效來打詐也成為我們台灣民眾非常關注的一個議題"},{"start":4066.943,"end":4092.365,"text":"那也不論各黨各派的委員也都對於政府打詐的這個成效提出許多的疑慮那本席今天也想就這個嚴重的影響的問題電信打詐來跟我們這個部長做一個討論那我想就教一下就是部長電信案的這個詐騙案逐年的暴增那我們在從這一張圖表"},{"start":4095.258,"end":4122.299,"text":"這張圖表示我們去年在立法院我們這個法務部進行專題報告時所提供的一個數據那我們從這裡面可以看到新收這個電信詐騙案的這個件數年年的上升占全國新收案件的這個占比也是不斷的往上跳我想請教部長就是這樣的暴增的情況是不是到目前為止還是在持續上升當中"},{"start":4124.221,"end":4137.596,"text":"應該比較和緩了,我們不敢說完全就消弭或是說已經狀況都非常的良好,但是我們確實也發揮了打擊詐騙的這樣的力道跟成果"},{"start":4138.537,"end":4154.131,"text":"至少有把它遏止下來因為我們採取了很多的測試包括法務部跟金管會跟NCC數位部內政部大家一起合作有在高檢署他的督導指揮之下有產生一些效果"},{"start":4154.571,"end":4155.632,"text":"我希望說其他還有一些細節像人頭門號的問題"},{"start":4179.144,"end":4192.173,"text":"人頭門號在現在已經有許多的詐騙案都是利用去申辦漫遊或是預付卡等人頭的門號作為犯案的工具當然可能是在第二類的電信業者那邊"},{"start":4193.626,"end":4193.666,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":4215.354,"end":4242.792,"text":"我們也是從法制面來做修法對於收購這些賬戶的所謂人頭賬戶的問題我們也從洗錢防治法還有刑法裡面去做規定所以對於人頭賬戶如果沒有正當理由交付賬戶當然如果有正當理由那是另外一回事如果沒有正當理由我們第一次是採取告誡的方式"},{"start":4246.055,"end":4269.487,"text":"交付這種人頭帳戶沒有正當理由的話我們才處以刑事的責任人頭帳戶跟人頭號碼應該是沒有直接的關係吧如果人頭帳戶就是給了他的號碼嘛所以這是有關聯的那還是一樣啦就這部分應該是要去嚴加把關啦因為這種問題可能就是"},{"start":4270.043,"end":4275.409,"text":"對於電信業者是否有責任我想請教一下就是說因為電信業者應該是積極要協助政府來打詐那部長認為我們電信業者應該是什麼樣的責任"},{"start":4291.497,"end":4309.324,"text":"因為電信法是其他部會的主管業務,如果要處以這個刑事的責任,我們法務部會提供一些意見或是在我們辦案中發現在行政的措施上應該要有所改善的話,我們也會提供意見給他們"},{"start":4310.845,"end":4333.423,"text":"那當然電信業者希望也能夠配合相關的機關來對於這個政府在維護社會安全保障人民的財產這樣的政策之下應該大家共同來努力因為現有的這個法令我們在管理的不足情況之下NCC在去年"},{"start":4334.224,"end":4349.808,"text":"有這個公布一個這個電信事業受理申辦電信服務風險管理機制的指引的一個這個法治化的這個草案他是電信事業用戶號碼使用管理辦法的一個草案"},{"start":4350.592,"end":4371.987,"text":"可是這個我們法務部有沒有參與這個草案的討論的過程那我們有沒有需要把這個法律的位階來做提升這部分主管機關他在制定或是修正相關的法案的時候都會邀法務部派人去參與我們會提供法制的意見好"},{"start":4375.049,"end":4389.083,"text":"提供意見而已部長我想請教一下我們還是針對電信詐騙案的部分我想請教部長就是說到底電信業者有沒有必要去負連帶的賠償責任"},{"start":4392.329,"end":4394.09,"text":"以現行的這個電信法則法規來看他在整個詐騙的過程裡面其實電信業者"},{"start":4420.427,"end":4440.766,"text":"像第一類他是沒有被處罰到啦如果有的話法則他第二類好像是20萬到100萬可是詐騙的這種金額在我們全台灣來看金額是非常大你就宜蘭縣在去年一整年詐騙金額已經超過7億了"},{"start":4443.357,"end":4462.529,"text":"有登錄的這些詐騙案去估算金額已經超過7億所以我主張就是說因為以電信業者來看應該他有把關的這種機制我們像現在有一些那個APP的系統他也可以幫助我們電信業者來做這個相關的把關的工具"},{"start":4463.39,"end":4484.929,"text":"那假設說有民眾回覆說這個接到的電話這個是疑似詐騙電話那累計到一個程度之後應該電信業者就要主張將這個號碼先停用請他來做說明那如果電信業者沒有去做這個就表示他沒有在做把關了嘛所以我覺得說應該是要給電信業者有一個連帶這個"},{"start":4487.899,"end":4509.391,"text":"責任他們才會積極的去參與部長您認為對我非常贊同委員的見解那尤其對於這些業者來講他應該要負起社會責任的你如果在把關上嚴格一點也許會減少一些被詐騙的機會對是好那另外一個"},{"start":4511.042,"end":4520.729,"text":"問題我想請教這個部長就是我們現在這個輔助AI輔助的這個利弊AI輔助的部分那因為"},{"start":4521.67,"end":4543.676,"text":"最近熱門的關鍵字在各行各業都在討論這個AI那近來因為我們大量的這個詐騙案也讓我們司法官的工作堆積如山那難以符合為了減輕我們司法官的案件壓力不管是在司法院還是法務部都會提出讓深層式的這種AI來輔助工作想法"},{"start":4544.244,"end":4563.285,"text":"那在今年的1月份司法節的學術研討中也討論到多個這種AI應用與司法之中的主題當中我想請教部長就是當時也有提到法務部已有兩個地檢署在試辦那想請問一下法務部目前試辦的成效如何"},{"start":4564.959,"end":4577.596,"text":"我們可以看到初步有一些成果可以幫助檢察官處理一些檢疫的案子譬如他們所整理的資料可以讓他們快速的來做判讀"},{"start":4579.596,"end":4600.801,"text":"結論也可以做參考,所以我們目前還在示範當中,我們有隨時在檢討。那成效是部長您滿意嗎?當然還有精進的空間,因為AI它本來就是不斷的在進步,我們也要隨著它的進步的腳步,也能夠提升它的效能。"},{"start":4602.582,"end":4617.578,"text":"雖然是可以減輕我們這個檢察官或是相關這個案件在審理的一些反鎖的一個簡單的工作可是在這個過程裡面我們要考慮到就是資安的問題資安的問題會不會因為在這個過程裡面會去那個洩漏"},{"start":4622.335,"end":4641.853,"text":"那這個部分部長我們有沒有什麼防範的這個辦法?有,我們也邀請一些資訊的專家還有給我們提供治安問題的防範的措施所以我們會特別注意到所以我們採取是個比較穩健的步伐來善用這個AI這種科技"},{"start":4642.574,"end":4658.125,"text":"好那也希望說我們這個AI系統的推動能夠比較順利來減輕我們檢察官還是這個基層的這些我們辛苦的這個工作同仁的這個工作量那也能夠達到實際的效果可是一定要這個"},{"start":4659.306,"end":4687.724,"text":"避免潛在風險存在的問題一定要先排除才能夠保障我們民眾的權益那以上我就拜託部長還有我們相關部會的各位主管就是針對打詐還有我們這個相關的問題能夠來做更多的這個努力避免我們這個全台灣這個被詐騙的這種案件一直層出不窮讓這個案件減少我相信也能夠讓我們整個社會秩序更加安穩"},{"start":4688.584,"end":4695.708,"text":"謝謝委員接下來請蔡易瑜委員發言蔡易瑜委員接下來請羅志強委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":4719.028,"end":4742.297,"text":"主席、在場的委員、先進、列席政府機關所長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體資訊先生那今天呢我想全民最關心的就是打詐那想蕭明遠萬事莫如打詐極但是打詐最重要的是張款要追回那另外呢我也認為要速力趕快速提柯真法還要各部會協力那我先來請教一下考考我們部長阿你對於這個詐騙的全球概況"},{"start":4745.938,"end":4773.372,"text":"在臺灣我們看到一個國外的統計資料在臺灣每個月會遇到一次詐騙的占比在全亞洲是第一名那意思是什麼我們每個月部長你這個月有沒有接到詐騙電話或詐騙的情勢我比較少你比較不是我說這個月這個月沒有還沒有沒有還沒有那你是屬於那四分之三我們大概四分之一的人每個月都會遇到詐騙的情況"},{"start":4774.741,"end":4801.491,"text":"很多人都接到電話我不好意思問在場沒有接過詐騙騷擾的應該都有我這個星期也接到了好那我們來看一下那詐騙算嚴重嗎台灣但是你看一看喔以各國的金額來看啦台灣的財損金額呢是排第23名你覺得咧這怎麼樣台灣人被騙但是台灣人沒有那麼多錢嗎你看到新加坡第一瑞士第二奧地利三你的觀感是怎麼樣"},{"start":4803.412,"end":4831.037,"text":"我們不能用這樣來覺得說我們值得慶幸但是真的是只要有財損我覺得我們就應該要努力的來防止部長的觀念正確其實我們看到這前幾名的國家很多是金融詐騙因為這些國家都是金融自由化相當高的國家國際化相當高的國家所以可能他們的詐騙是屬於一種專業型的犯罪在台灣相對金額少可是很多都是消費詐騙你同意嗎"},{"start":4831.877,"end":4858.226,"text":"同意好那這樣的實況你有了解的就可以來我們再往下看其實對民眾來講雖然損失的金額相較其他國家不是最多但是呢經過調查有將近六成的民眾覺得六成的民眾是損失在一萬五千元部長你現在身上有沒有一萬五千元沒有沒有那你跟我一樣加管研好那麼損失一萬五千元可能對很多中高收入的人不算什麼"},{"start":4858.854,"end":4876.184,"text":"但是這雖然不到六成的民眾他們損失在一萬五千以下但是將近七成的民眾認為這樣的損失對他們經濟產生顯著的影響你覺得是什麼原因損失的金額看起來不是很高可是為什麼民眾覺得影響很巨大你覺得呢"},{"start":4877.597,"end":4896.002,"text":"感受也非常不好明明是我的錢為什麼被人家這樣騙走我要告訴你原因你聽過那種不要用經濟學的名詞所得不高的人就算損失金額不大佔比會影響他的生活如果我一個月只賺3萬元我被騙1萬5你說嚴不嚴重"},{"start":4898.072,"end":4923.954,"text":"如果我一個月賺10萬元我被騙1萬5你就嚴不嚴重所以可見很多被騙的將近六成的民眾是屬於什麼樣我們這個社會上不要說牲斗小民他們是在為了自己的討生活很勉強維持的那這樣的人被詐騙個五千一萬他這個月就很難過日子了所以你了解為什麼詐騙生物痛絕的原因了吧我會往下看其實就是這樣子因為牲斗小民被消費詐騙損失個"},{"start":4926.366,"end":4953.387,"text":"幾千萬把塊但是占他的收入占他的生活影響非常巨大江洋大道去偷富豪的珠寶那個美術藝術品其實社會感受不太很強是不是這樣如果您對這樣的一個民怨有所了解那你就知道方向在哪裡了所以部長那你覺得要解決誰的問題富豪被金融詐騙的問題投資理財詐騙問題還是一般的薪水階級為了生活打拚的民眾被消費詐騙的問題"},{"start":4955.995,"end":4982.534,"text":"兩個都要重視啦但是對於大多數的民眾來講我們更加要加以防範來保障他們的財產好那我們來看一看齁那接下來我們來看一下其實呢很大的問題在哪裡其實呢其實監警呢其實對民眾來講他要的倒不是說把他繩子依法把他關關到一輩子多數的被騙的人呢最想要的是把錢拿回來"},{"start":4983.376,"end":4983.496,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5002.844,"end":5002.864,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":5026.164,"end":5051.507,"text":"接下來我們看看靈慧關懷主詐的跟我們追回的都很低但是隨著時間的成長我們看到了我們現在追回來的追回39億了這個還算不錯但你有沒有注意到靈慧關懷主詐的高達76億那表示什麼金融機構他看到民眾可能被詐騙他主卻不要讓他錢轉出去他的效果不錯喔"},{"start":5052.728,"end":5080.339,"text":"但是我們被騙了把他追回來的只追回39億是不是還有成長空間是所以這樣瞭解的我們這個政府在鼓勵民眾及澳大利亞民眾試詐然後呢金融機構主詐然後呢後面還要打詐調查局檢警要打詐那我們法務部呢最後隨同司法院懲詐但是最重要是什麼錢要追回來你同意嗎同意同意好那麼追回贓款為什麼比主詐還難呢你覺得"},{"start":5083.154,"end":5111.199,"text":"因為他詐騙後的這些金額啊很快的就能夠轉出去啊是有斷點啊要追索很難啊對而且有很多是在境外對境外的話透過其他各國的合作了好你講到前兩點了轉手迅速路徑難以複雜難以追查還有一個很重要的就算是抓到了錢扣到了司法單位很難判斷這些扣到錢是誰的損失我自己的家人就遇到過"},{"start":5112.139,"end":5133.984,"text":"就是被騙了,後來一堆被害人去,抓到了車手,抓到了帳戶,帳戶的錢是誰的?你有這個經驗嗎?怎麼分?怎麼證明這個錢,這個大水庫裡面的錢是哪個小水池流過來的?你了解了齁?好,那怎麼證明,接下來我們看一下,怎麼證明嫌犯的電子錢包或帳戶裡面是贓款?首先你要有金流,要有交易的金額,要有交易的時間。"},{"start":5134.964,"end":5157.006,"text":"但你要確認這個錢是跟誰騙的,你要有對話的明細,甚至取款的時候,車子取款的時候,ATM提領的監視器畫面,對不對?我們要透過這些方式再有辦法追回彰款的時候,明確地讓這些彰款回復到損失者身上,是不是這樣?可能你還沒有遇到過,我就感覺上你的回答不太清楚,民眾實際遇到的人都抓到了,錢也扣到了。"},{"start":5157.466,"end":5185.63,"text":"但是法官沒有辦法確定說哪些是你損失的錢好 那麼我們現在從這裡來看一下齁從車手往上追查首腦贓款的首要資訊流桃園地檢的業主任檢察官他說呢他用telegram還有自動粉繪查扣了手機拿去數位監視都沒有用那科技難以取得的資訊流我們要如何上當追蹤當然這科技要請教一些專家來協助我們那目前有哪些方法"},{"start":5187.262,"end":5193.577,"text":"因為這科技的專門技術我還要再問一下我們同仁同仁在場有沒有人知道"},{"start":5195.131,"end":5223.845,"text":"好那直接揭曉答案目前大概有這幾個目前透過小木馬監控手機才能取得罪證為什麼因為我說過你手機裡面你扣到手機它已經不見了所以必須即時的在犯罪嫌疑人手上植入俗稱的小木馬在他進行通訊的同時就同時取證那這裡面你要把這個小木馬植入釣魚的電子郵件或者利用嫌犯送場維修的時候或者利用他去上色情網站的時候就植入那植入這種木馬程式這裡面"},{"start":5225.026,"end":5246.068,"text":"目前他可以即時的複製收集資料傳送偵查機關那請問部長你知道這個方法嗎是我提到有被採納嗎因為所以我們知道這個方法是很有效所以在我們所草擬的科技偵查及保障法就要把他這個納進來但是目前這個是不被法院認為有證據能力的對不對"},{"start":5247.029,"end":5261.811,"text":"因為還沒有立法對沒有立法嘛好那科技偵查我們來談一下今天我就很關心的是科技偵查法包括哪些的項目那這些項目有些是檢察官保留也是法官保留包括GPS這個可能比較大家可以接受M化車現在到處在跑"},{"start":5262.552,"end":5285.053,"text":"收尋雲端伺服器那甚至呢在線上搜索但是線上搜這個知識體大在機房裡面但是最最可能被檢警所採用的就是通訊端的監察就是小木馬這個感覺上我應該這題問刑事警察局比較清楚好像我們法務部對這個問題的深入性不高好"},{"start":5285.851,"end":5309.814,"text":"那我想這個問題拉回來你覺得這些東西有沒有幫助我們去追贓讓民眾取回損失的金額有沒有幫助絕對有幫助那法務部做了哪些努力我們現在就趕快立法讓他在採取這種作為的時候有法源的依據不會產生爭議但是相對有很多民眾會擔心"},{"start":5311.235,"end":5339.344,"text":"科技偵查會侵犯他的隱私那這點法務部有什麼樣的應對我們採取最嚴格的審核所以大部分這邊所使用的方法都要經過法官的核准那除了科技偵查法之外除了法務部之外還需要哪些協助才能讓民眾取回賬款比如說金融機構協助管制人頭賬戶比如說FB這些社群網站要保留詐騙訊息這個是你法務部做得到的嗎"},{"start":5341.202,"end":5353.136,"text":"法務部來協調啦,但是我知道有些金融機構啊,他可以採信說如果你證明這個錢是從你的戶頭匯過來的話那我很快的,這筆錢在這個所扣押的帳戶裡面可以證明說這個錢是從哪裡來的,我就很快的還給你"},{"start":5359.744,"end":5385.989,"text":"所以你也知道民眾除了法務部協助去懲詐之外他們需要在偵辦的過程中跟其他機構的合作才能夠不然就是即時阻詐不然就是讓金流不要流到境外不然就是要在未來扣到賬款的時候能夠有效的拿回來需要其他部位的協助包括金融機構對不對那包括了像包括管制FB這種社群網站的這個主管機關對不對那有哪些機關"},{"start":5387.681,"end":5402.708,"text":"包括NCC包括數位部包括經管會還有包括內政部很好那請問這些單位您在提科技章法的時候有沒有把科技章法裡面沒有辦法涵蓋的部分你有把這些需要協助的這樣整理出來呢"},{"start":5403.7,"end":5429.7,"text":"他們這一部分是不放在科技偵查保障法但是我們高檢署有去協調這些執法單位那這些需求你們有整理出來了有好那我就這樣兩個第一請法務部盡速將科技偵查及保障法送立法院讓我們來滿足達成民眾需要懲詐打詐的這個目的好不好是什麼時候可以提出來我們已經提出已經送到行政院去審查但是還沒到我們這裡來那請你們追溯第二"},{"start":5430.561,"end":5450.263,"text":"法務部從懲詐在打造的分工上你們法務部是懲詐但是你懲詐之外你需要其他部會的協助之下你說高檢署已經有整理了是可不可以在一定期間內送到我這裡來送到我們委員會來好大概多久一個月內不用那麼久了我們盡快就給你我們現在做的那今天下半年就可以給我們了"},{"start":5450.743,"end":5451.104,"text":"我們接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":5466.993,"end":5492.765,"text":"謝謝主席,你也讓我喘三十秒,剛才是怎麼挑那麼多人,沒有...有好幾位沒有來,所以就速度比較快喘五秒而已,謝謝召委,請我們法務部陳部長部長,我想在座好多都是法學專家,我們社會法制委員會"},{"start":5494.976,"end":5516.506,"text":"我剛在辦公室我是稍微有聽了一下其他委員的一個詢答啦我是覺得比較奇怪啦 其實有一些觀念還是要講清楚啦司法及法制委員會喔 今年一年少的齁 會給你報告 你們吹車拔車 但是你們那些觀念還是要講清楚啦大法官事宪如果是死刑 宣告到最後是違憲"},{"start":5518.871,"end":5533.917,"text":"真的是全部都馬上放出來嗎?要怕死嗎?沒有辦法說嘛,不可能嘛不可能,什麼在開什麼玩笑,是要打死死亡的跟打死贏只因為大法官宣告說這個違憲,然後這些本來判處死刑人全部都放出來"},{"start":5536.439,"end":5541.341,"text":"不可能嘛 這不可能嘛 那個大法官就算是宣告是違憲也不是變成說 那個那是死刑 這個法官沒有再適用 那個條文沒有再去適用 不是說那些人變成無罪啊 這個觀念要先講清楚啊 但是啊 確實有一些問題啦"},{"start":5561.181,"end":5580.004,"text":"不好意思講錯了不是我的問題是跑樓梯的問題那就變成說這個人權確實是與時在俱進我們檢察官依法偵查犯罪法院其實也是依法在審判那這個法誰立的"},{"start":5581.462,"end":5607.602,"text":"立法院立的 立法院立的哪怕大法官會議裡面先宣告違憲那也有可能是往後不適用嘛 對不對也未必會去溯及啦大法官是不是會前衛到這個地步 我不知道但是呢 確實是值得去法務部為予籌謀啦 為予籌謀確實如果宣告違憲以後那接下來怎麼有一段期間的一個處置"},{"start":5608.956,"end":5630.425,"text":"那我今天反而要針對一些在黨的朋友提出的刑法的修正案他們說要徵定出犯妨礙司法公正罪不法關說罪跟棄保潛逃罪等相關的一個條文本席想在這邊請教部長就是說對於這個棄保潛逃罪你們立法的一個計畫裡面你們到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":5631.809,"end":5654.91,"text":"我先把它陳述完就說像譬如說在我的基本的觀念裡面我第一個我會覺得有沒有一罪兩罰的問題那第二個要不要去設限哪一些罪名我今天去跟林思敏跟趙薇我們待會意識衝突玩家受騙受傷我不會贏啊"},{"start":5656.212,"end":5682.386,"text":"法官搞不好看到你們這政治人物就很討厭還打架不當人民的表率在國會裡面還打架全部都拒保一萬塊有可能啊有可能啊我來下這個處分我敢啊我就特別討厭你們這些立法委員全部都一萬塊交保交保以後 哇 剛好要開會啊剛好要出國啊 安裝啊啊 或是你那個船票要寄到那個戶籍所在地啊沒收到 沒去"},{"start":5692.591,"end":5706.783,"text":"這也怪 我說我不知道條文是怎麼樣我第一個想法是覺得這也好怪第二個如果是告訴乃論之罪 兩個人打架打完啦我真的確實沒去開庭啦 講完也起訴啦可是一審我們和解啦告訴乃論之罪本來就可以撤回啊"},{"start":5712.301,"end":5727.387,"text":"那我又多了一個罪這好怪我是覺得很奇怪我是簡單舉這樣的一個例子來做一個提醒你說如果是重大犯罪你要去抑制他但是會不會你這個罪立出來以後"},{"start":5728.803,"end":5742.373,"text":"又會像我們前陣子啊頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳我們這個整個外醫間的情況又會一樣啦重罪了我要跑的哪怕你有一個棄保潛逃罪我哪會在乎你那個棄保潛逃罪對不對那變成全部都是輕罪的賣了不要去的變成稍微會受到約束的又變成都是一些犯了輕罪的"},{"start":5754.485,"end":5760.573,"text":"有沒有這樣的一個可能所以這個部分我是不是請部長來做一個說明因為變成說這種罪名都牽扯到"},{"start":5767.639,"end":5794.424,"text":"因果關係的問題啊都會有一個前面的罪才會導出後面的一個所謂的棄保潛逃那如果你沒有去限縮的話涉及到告訴來論之罪的或者說有一些輕罪的這個輕輕法重這個盜罪會不會變成有立法會有不平衡失衡的地方這個是不是要斟酌一下請部長回答"},{"start":5795.544,"end":5813.49,"text":"謝謝委員的關心確實對於涉嫌犯罪被檢察官交保我們就是希望他能夠按時的出庭接受法官也好或檢察官的偵查審判但是你如果沒有正當的理由那棄保"},{"start":5814.29,"end":5836.943,"text":"前逃的話當然第一個他可能發生的效果就是他的這個交保金就會被沒收了當然沒收完了以後是不是還要再處以刑事的責任再另外加一個獨立的犯罪這是值得思考的因為要構成犯罪我們一定要考慮他是有沒有必要性是不是一定要能夠用其他的方法"},{"start":5837.483,"end":5838.484,"text":"立法院現在在立法套什麼的遷移性他好像認為是法律萬能的"},{"start":5855.075,"end":5872.532,"text":"一直把他加重一直把他加重一直把他加重我就從以前我從年輕在大學念書的時候大家都說每個跌倒踏都說在踏刑罰都刑罰有簽譽性現在一直全部把他加重加重完真的有辦法去抑制整個犯罪嗎"},{"start":5874.042,"end":5884.712,"text":"所以我們在定刑法的時候要非常的謹慎是啊以前我們在看你跟我他刑法你看一把空一條開始齁 都開始為國家法益 變成社會法益還變成財產犯罪 現在都到病現在就是民粹 老百姓的財產受害的 喔 大家討厭討厭討厭那財產犯罪都一直加一直加一直加一直加一直加"},{"start":5897.532,"end":5915.764,"text":"反而是把我們以前也許啦過去的法學思維未必正確啦現在才是對的現在的民粹對的也不一定了那整個是顛覆掉那這個顛覆常常都是不是有一個體系的一個思考都是看到社會發生什麼事情就給它加重加重加重都不好啦我記得我當時在做的事的時候我當時在義美監獄的時候那時候裡面在管那些犯罪我講了好多次17%"},{"start":5927.364,"end":5949.692,"text":"現在你躲在監獄裏面,我每天都在電視上說,你這裡現在關於毒品的關於多少?都被撤回50%我們就知道這個是不對的,這個政策是不對的甚至這個立法其實沒有辦法抑制整個犯罪的,可是我們都用這樣的方式值得思考啦,我不敢說不對啦,因為我們立法院其實全部都是共犯啦,但是我有一個問題喔"},{"start":5950.912,"end":5976.399,"text":"不過委員我再補充說明除了刑法對於棄保潛逃我們除了可以考慮用其他的處罰之外還是我們也在修法之前也用電子監控的方式來防止他逃所以對於說需要的這些被告我們檢察官法官也會預知說要給他施予這種電子監控就是要防逃我反而覺得這比較合理"},{"start":5977.119,"end":5982.303,"text":"不要再多說了,好像大家都定心安的有囉!法律完備了!無私檢察官,無私法官,這樣而已啦我真的這樣子覺得啦我講個最極端的啊,到最後是啊,棄保點頭啦抓來,這個審判又很快,事實很明確啊哇!刑事犯罪當初被拒保的無罪判決確定,還在喊"},{"start":6004.238,"end":6016.751,"text":"還有可能啊 判決還沒確定自己 你說判決確定以後 你要照樣抓來抓回來就是執行而已嘛 判決還沒確定以後 多給你多增加一個罪名 然後到最後法院判下來是無罪的 這個我都覺得"},{"start":6019.093,"end":6019.553,"text":"委員會主管列席報告"},{"start":6043.428,"end":6044.709,"text":"主管機關在應對作為跟政策上我倒覺得稍嫌單一性的一個應付怎麼講呢"},{"start":6059.119,"end":6077.136,"text":"就是沒有一個比較健全的制度跟養成上來養成教育上來做一個全盤的一個檢討我舉例就是說目前比較管理比較類似運動博弈的就是運採的一個條例那這裡面現行法的規範只能顧及到台灣運採有關開盤的"},{"start":6079.838,"end":6081.219,"text":"現在以運動彩券發行條例裡面,你們有沒有發現是不是可以再去把它補強的地方?"},{"start":6104.826,"end":6105.867,"text":"職棒你們成功了,我覺得職棒有成功"},{"start":6123.537,"end":6140.149,"text":"所以我們會複製職棒的經驗希望在職籃也跟各個這些職籃的團體讓他們結合聯盟給他們球員的一個教育還有制度面上怎麼樣做比較完善這個都已經在做了"},{"start":6140.99,"end":6150.936,"text":"我是覺得說我們職棒的部分我們法務部這個地方我們也提供了那麼多的一個經驗甚至於派專責檢察官或檢察事務官到球場去監賽讓他這當然保護選手也讓整個賽事會比較公平"},{"start":6158.74,"end":6179.019,"text":"那就比較可惜了 像部長講的說我確實我們的職燃的部分要再加緊的一個腳步了你看去年發生的幾間的遷徒案甚至是發生在已經成立21年半的這個SBL這個整個超級籃球賽裡面所以我希望部長我們家成功的經驗在職燃的部分"},{"start":6180.98,"end":6205.628,"text":"可以再部署,不要再部上那個過去職棒這樣的一個後塵你當年建制這樣防堵的一個機制那我看經歷過這幾個跨部會的一個協商演繹以後就像部長講的,把它複製上去因為這個球賽大家喜歡,但是這個公平的環境我是覺得我們法務部家協助把它給建立"},{"start":6206.408,"end":6208.035,"text":"不然你職棒做得好 你說職籃才做得好"},{"start":6211.544,"end":6211.864,"text":"謝謝主席我先就教部長"},{"start":6239.98,"end":6265.273,"text":"那部長我想我們現在大家很關心的就是蘇丹紅流竄全台這個事件目前我們的食安事件已經造成我們的民眾非常恐慌大家都不知道說到底現在這些熟知的食品公司生產的這些食品到底能不能吃人心惶惶大家到底要安心吃什麼所以我要請問部長高檢署"},{"start":6268.642,"end":6286.669,"text":"不是有那個打擊民生犯罪督導小組嗎?是 服務界小組嗎?那另外地檢署也有食品藥物犯罪的查緝小組齁?有所以我問部長齁請問那現在針對這些食品安全的事件尤其蘇丹紅這個事件"},{"start":6287.95,"end":6299.483,"text":"高檢署的打擊民生犯罪督導小組已有啟動這個小組的平台來就這個事件做一個"},{"start":6301.044,"end":6321.253,"text":"有關蘇丹紅的事件有跟委員說明一下那關於蘇丹紅的這一部分我們已經有三個地檢署就已經啟動偵查而且也曾經向法院生壓其中有兩個人獲准所以其他的還有交保的"},{"start":6321.693,"end":6348.204,"text":"所以我們對於這個違反食品安全衛生如果涉及刑責的話檢察機關都是會全力以赴是部長您這個回答我今天早上看了您昨天4點多發布的新聞稿那新聞稿裡面剛提到應該講的就是有雲林還有新北還有高雄地檢署3個地檢署那我們有這個地檢署都有積極介入偵辦協助偵辦這些不法業者"},{"start":6350.965,"end":6368.618,"text":"但是我剛才提到的就是說高檢署的打擊民生犯罪督導小組你有這個平台嗎有那你現在只有三個縣市你有督導全國各縣市的地檢署同步的協助我們各地方政府來追查這些蘇丹紅的流向嗎"},{"start":6370.499,"end":6396.24,"text":"這個小組有啟動嗎?有啟動嗎?我相信應該有,他們的資訊都會流通,然後互相支援。你講相信有,到底有或沒有?你講相信有?沒有啦,絕對會啦。他們對這個案子的處理都會向上呈報,呈報的話在高檢署,高檢署都會發現是不是別的轄區也有同樣的狀況,他們就會...部長我點出這個問題,所以連你都不知道?"},{"start":6396.9,"end":6402.227,"text":"高檢署到底有沒有啟動這個打擊民生犯罪督導小組?我相信因為...地檢署也有食品藥物的犯罪查緝小組"},{"start":6413.123,"end":6429.302,"text":"到底這些小組你成立這麼多小組這些食品安全的事情發生的時候這些小組有沒有發揮他的一個功能因為平時他們就會跟當地的衛生單位還有這些食品檢驗單位都會保持密切的聯繫"},{"start":6430.243,"end":6458.631,"text":"那平台的功能就是要有資訊的互通嘛討論嘛如果案件發生的時候要共同來查緝所以你要主動嘛你不是被動嗎這樣看起來就是說好像我們的高檢署或者是低檢署的這些這個督導小組都是很被動嗎而且可能各縣市政府告訴你之後你才去這個去啟動這個平常都有聯繫那我想只要一發生就會立即的來處理"},{"start":6460.29,"end":6470.863,"text":"所以這些督導小組的功能到底不是現在你才匯報匯整說有三個縣市他現在這個偵查的一個結果怎麼樣有收納的幾個人但是你現在有這個小組你是不是應該"},{"start":6476.95,"end":6490.66,"text":"發生這些事情我們檢方高檢署的這個督導小組或者食品地點署的食品查緝小組就開始自己要去主動的協助了啊不是要主動 能夠一直被動嗎"},{"start":6491.801,"end":6507.258,"text":"不會啦,平常他們就會很積極啦所以我想這個,既然有小組,都道小組,我們就要比較積極啊尤其這影響到人民的這種食品安全嘛,這是重要的好啦,第二個,來問郭董"},{"start":6509.46,"end":6532.472,"text":"我想我們就有關剛才那個謝榮介委員也提到金門海域這一次的這個事情就我們海巡艦艇跟大陸漁船碰撞事件這個事情那在查緝過程中造成兩死兩傷的事件我想我用比較中性就是在查緝的過程中造成這個不幸的事件那請部長請教部長那我們金門地檢署對這個案子"},{"start":6537.535,"end":6563.77,"text":"我們的定調是什麼是過失致死還是其他的一個方向來偵辦任何可能他都要來蒐集證據來處理那現在他們還在努力的在查證然後包括要等待鑑定的結果因為涉及到有人死亡嘛那他們第一時間就接獲通報以後也採取相驗的動作嘛"},{"start":6564.35,"end":6589.422,"text":"所以是朝過失致人於死的這個不一定有人死亡當然要後續的修正然後才能去做認定我想這個大家都心知肚明這個就像一般車禍案件一樣警方或者說警方追逐我們的逃犯發生碰撞事件這個然後有人死亡那這種情況那到底說這個是"},{"start":6590.803,"end":6617.541,"text":"我們在檢方在因為有人死亡我們在辦這個案子的時候到底檢方查詢的過程是合法或者有過失不當就是這種案子嘛怎麼不需要遮遮掩掩的嘛沒有這是事實認定的問題啦我們來尊重所以因為有人死亡所以你偵辦的方向就過失致死嘛你還有什麼方向可以偵辦的都有可能啦一般的我們死亡檢察官就相應也有可能是意外死亡意外死亡"},{"start":6620.478,"end":6628.531,"text":"但是現在是因為 當然最後一定是意外死亡但是他是過失還是他沒有過失 或者是過檔 這不是我們要查的"},{"start":6631.222,"end":6652.189,"text":"這都有可能嘛所以說你委員講的當然也是查了一個方向之一啦所以你是往一定是朝過失之人的不是一定啦就是說這個也不排除但是他也是他偵查的方向之一啦我不是說朝這個方向偵辦我們的海巡人員就過失啦而是說你是朝這個方向偵辦那到底"},{"start":6652.789,"end":6680.597,"text":"在整個查細的過程有沒有不當或者有沒有這個我們所謂的過失的問題這查清楚就好了嘛因為人死亡啊 對不對所以我們在查嘛 對不對所以我才問你說我們是不是往這個方向偵辦嘛各種方向都有可能你各種方向都去查也好啦反正就把事情查清楚這是本來就去拿官的責任啦這個事情大概我們還要查多久那"},{"start":6682.711,"end":6689.093,"text":"施法檢察官趕快把這個事情查清楚查清楚還原真相儘快彌平這個爭議讓事件趕快落幕"},{"start":6711.34,"end":6736.815,"text":"所以現在大家期待你們檢察官金門地檢署查出的一個事實的真相是怎麼樣他們充分的瞭解所以要盡快 不然現在這些惡性螺旋 惡意螺旋一直往上升高啊所以大家留待給我們偵辦單位一個空間啦信任的就是金門地檢署我現在看到整個到最後的現在慢慢聚焦在司法的一個偵辦"},{"start":6739.578,"end":6755.086,"text":"部長你也說希望能夠禁訴啦其實我講的這種案件真的要那麼久來偵辦嗎當然他也要一些家屬的配合還有其他單位的配合啦所以我想訴真訴潔連最初的死因的一個結果大家都"},{"start":6755.606,"end":6758.387,"text":"司法偵查是當然會尊重家屬的意見但是最後的結果還是以我們偵查的一個證據我們來做出認定"},{"start":6777.233,"end":6802.038,"text":"所以我意思說我們依照客觀的證據趕快去給他這個速審速審家屬也不在場因為我們不知道發生什麼事情所以你要看客觀的事跡你市政但是我們覺得一般我看司法事務沒有家屬的意見我們會尊重但是不是作為我們判定的這個事實過程的一個依據當然啦我會說需要各方的配合要加速不是只有單靠檢察官而已"},{"start":6803.858,"end":6829.803,"text":"那我讓我們大家來努力嘛這樣拖太久了這個大家對我們法務部檢察署的期待單獨的事情就不會落幕啊所以我是希望說法務部能夠速增速解啦不要拖太久啦我會轉達對啦該辦的該查的證據就快速嘛不要在案子一直拖嘛你越拖下去二一螺旋一直升高嘛"},{"start":6830.723,"end":6832.264,"text":"法務部調查局搜索台灣辣品公司查扣"},{"start":6856.88,"end":6884.417,"text":"執行適當且有相關高階主管與職務利害關係者接觸頻繁多次參與職務有利害關係者的引咽應酬及求續嚴重違反相關規定另外調查局有部分外勤佔據點工作費憑證核銷也難為事法這些為師有監察院已經提案糾正調查局"},{"start":6885.518,"end":6900.778,"text":"是不是局長?確實有這個事吧?是,有,監察院有在調查中是,那有提出糾正了嗎?目前我們是有看到他的新聞稿啦但是他的糾正的意見或者是調查報告我們還沒有收到"},{"start":6901.468,"end":6927.883,"text":"那我們自己內部的調查的這個結果呢?完成沒有?因為這個案子它其實有涉及到另外一個偵辦中的案件那因為另外那個偵辦中的案件正在還沒有癥結那所以事實上我們有一些的相關的事證是沒有那麼清楚但是我們就我們可以掌握的部分我們有提供給監察院然後我們自己內部也有做一些的調查有做懲處了嗎?"},{"start":6929.123,"end":6955.605,"text":"目前還沒有我們還是要看監察院他正式的報告到了以後我們會根據他裡面所提的我們再來檢討改進包含如果是制度面有需要改善的那我們會檢討制度如果是執行面的話我們也會加強在執行上的要求那個局長我想這些事件都大家造成大家對第二局的觀感不佳所以我想第二局應該就是盡速把這些該懲處的就懲處"},{"start":6958.694,"end":6980.552,"text":"我想這些對調查局的名譽都造成很大的不良影響調查局要自清所以你要儘速做出懲處的內容還有具體改善措施我想調查局要儘速來做你不要等監察院的調查結果你自己做出行政調查不可以嗎"},{"start":6983.734,"end":6994.498,"text":"我們會盡快,但是監察院有提到的部分,那這個部分我們當然一定要針對監察院所提到的,我們來加以檢討改進。好,謝謝,那我們接下來請吳思瑤委員發言好,謝謝主席"},{"start":7007.009,"end":7032.71,"text":"法務部同仁大家好我是司堯我是法制委員會來這裡學習的那如果有任何發言有不夠精確大家隨時指正我們理性對話我跟每一個部會都會用這個當開場牌我不會說你們藐視國會大家放心言所當言為所當為這是我每個人的職責包括我現在拋出來的議題我也是言所當言為所當為"},{"start":7034.131,"end":7059.119,"text":"推動反歧視法或平等法yes or no這是我今天就教於大家的好下一頁我想先問一下部長這是發生在我自己選前的一個傷害事件就是有這個楊志良前署長去站台的時候就說了吳思堯賣狗雜貝啊不可能生啊啦啊 絕子絕孫了"},{"start":7061.416,"end":7090.018,"text":"請問這樣的言論是不是涉及了歧視這是非常不恰當這是對於性別對於婚育的歧視那其實對我自己的個人的傷害是小我也很勇敢的告訴所有的女性同胞跟社會訴求我要告訴全天下的楊志良們管好自己的嘴女人的子宮輪不到你來管"},{"start":7091.311,"end":7092.251,"text":"下一頁我也再一步請問這就發生在剛開議的國會現場"},{"start":7118.243,"end":7144.217,"text":"有國民黨的黨編說不再讓民進黨圈養的家禽家畜來當部會首長部長啊你是家禽家畜嗎這樣的言論是不是也是歧視呢這樣非常的不尊重非常的不尊重就對於職業的不尊重而且貓狗好可愛喔不要歧視貓狗"},{"start":7147.03,"end":7169.009,"text":"這樣子的職業的歧視在國會議員的口中說出來我認為非常的可異也非常的可惡官員都是有尊嚴有專業有背膀的絕對不是如這些委員所說的家禽家畜一般就是被圈養的我要替你們抗議下一頁"},{"start":7172.011,"end":7198.288,"text":"又是一個最近的事件很不幸的離開了我們的陳俊翰律師人權律師他一生為了台灣的人權自由在奮鬥他一生為了弱勢者身心障礙者在奔走發聲但是也曾經有中國的媒體人在節目上說台灣的造勢場合就是一場秀把殘疾人士推上去煽情"},{"start":7200.017,"end":7200.377,"text":"再回到社會"},{"start":7227.285,"end":7246.582,"text":"校園一再的出現歧視性的污名化的言論我們的教育現場失靈了嗎就以這兩年來臺中一中園遊會的海報歧視原住民族再到臺大言論自由月也再一次發生歧視原住民族"},{"start":7247.443,"end":7265.256,"text":"的言論還有臺大學生在競選他們的學生會政府會長也發生歧視性別歧視原住民族的言論校園都發生這樣的歧視言行"},{"start":7266.383,"end":7288.915,"text":"我當然我過去的教育文化委員會我不斷的要求教育部門透過教育下手導入正確的觀念今天我在這裡我質詢面對的我有機會來跟法務部門的各位專家們對話部長除了我剛說的原住民族的性別的身障者的職業的歧視之外你能夠想像的歧視還有哪些"},{"start":7290.902,"end":7311.756,"text":"還有言論上網路言論上的一些霸凌還有在一些場合對人的不尊重部長回答的是發生在哪些場域如果說以現在我剛剛提供的是幾種歧視的樣態事實上歧視的樣態無所不在"},{"start":7312.737,"end":7341.567,"text":"包括對於語言是一種歧視對於宗教會有歧視對於黨派會有歧視對於你的出生地對於你的性傾向對於你的年齡對於你的容貌常常我們會講胖瘦美醜包括對於各類的職業現場都有各種歧視所以歧視性是非常多的台灣過去對於歧視的法規是散列在各法"},{"start":7342.406,"end":7351.63,"text":"沒有一個一致性的原則好下一頁所以台灣為什麼需要我在這裡倡議我們需要一部反歧視法或者是稱為平等法有幾個理由第一個讓人權條約國內法化台灣從1970年來"},{"start":7358.892,"end":7384.04,"text":"來簽訂了消除一切形式的種族歧視國際公約開始我們陸陸續續的簽訂了公民與政治權利國際公約經濟社會文化權利國際公約消除對婦女一切形式的歧視公約兒童權利公約身心障礙者權利公約再再的告訴我們臺灣要跟上世界聯合國的人權倡議包括3月21號快到了是聯合國訂定的世界反歧視日"},{"start":7385.549,"end":7411.932,"text":"那在3月我很把握3月可以在這裡跟大家討論如果讓我們的反歧視法或平等法的訂定能夠往前推一步我認為非常有意義第二個理由下一頁臺灣為什麼需要一部反歧視法也正是我們要推動SDGS18項聯合國國際大家都在遵循的當中的第10點就是減少不平等"},{"start":7412.532,"end":7426.081,"text":"而這個減少不平等就來自於人跟人之間的不平等要消滅乃至於國跟國之間的不平等要被消滅所以回應國際也回應台灣社會的現況"},{"start":7428.671,"end":7448.77,"text":"討論反歧視法或者是平等法我認為此期時也下頁也跟部長報告我整理出來臺灣的反歧視條款是散列各法的現行的法律是欠缺一致性的當然我們性別平等教育法性別工作平等法都是思堯過去很努力的我們也修訂完成了就業服務法規範的是18個項目的歧視"},{"start":7452.273,"end":7466.492,"text":"他禁止入出國籍移民法、原住民族工作權益保障法、監獄行刑法、羈押法都有清楚的對於反歧視條款但是他散列於各法下一頁"},{"start":7468.004,"end":7497.096,"text":"那我跟您分享一下國際的經驗加拿大人權法1977年就定了他的定定是源自於世界人權宣言他的歧視項目歧視的方法透過騷擾或傷害對於哪些生活領域可能在職場在僱傭關係在各種服務的提供上都可能面對了被歧視的可能所以他在組織上透過一個立法去反映在他們組成的加拿大的人權委員會好下一頁"},{"start":7498.362,"end":7508.344,"text":"看看德國德國2006年整合了很多的法規訂定了平等法他的歧視的樣態歧視的方法歧視會發生的生活領域"},{"start":7509.437,"end":7535.956,"text":"他都非常清楚的兼顧而且他們組成了聯邦反歧視局在下一頁英國2010年的平等法他更進步他甚至納入了性別重製也就是變性人也不能被歧視那英國回應在組織面向他成立了英國平等及人權委員會他從2006年先訂定平等法到2010年進一步有一個"},{"start":7536.937,"end":7551.088,"text":"第二版2.0的平等法下一頁再看看瑞典他把九部反歧視法向台灣散列各法把它融合成一法在2008年瑞典的反歧視法上路了他們設定的組織是平等監察室"},{"start":7554.531,"end":7574.54,"text":"在下一頁我們鄰近的好朋友日本2016年全國性的有一個消除仇恨言論法這是中央法規進一步的地方政府我也看到國際的期刊2020年川崎市這個地方市議會進一步的透過地方市議會的立法來訂定川崎市的反歧視條例"},{"start":7576.101,"end":7601.083,"text":"而他進一步的勸告命令如果說不聽勸告無效6個月內三度違規我可以公開你這個歧視者的姓名資訊然後進一步刑事告發最高可處50萬日元因為日本跟我們比較近他也比較接近2020年的新法文花一點時間來論述所以我講了這麼多都來自於哪裡下一頁部長"},{"start":7603.529,"end":7620.323,"text":"臺灣已有立委提了不分黨派國民黨也有反族群歧視法民進黨也有族群平等及反歧視法已經有4個委員的提案待審中但是他們是focus在種族的歧視面向那很多都是原住民族的委員提出的下一頁"},{"start":7621.624,"end":7635.356,"text":"反歧視法在臺灣我剛整理的東西就是你們這一本部長法務部2019年做的跟中研院合作的我裡面密密麻麻的筆記我所有的PPT都來自於我想讀你們的資料"},{"start":7636.57,"end":7662.712,"text":"你們甚至訂出了67條的具體條文你們在組織面還主張說中央主管機關行政院平等處要成立地方主管機關是各縣市政府市政府要成立平等委員會那監察機關呢監督機關是國家人權委員會禁止制度包括救濟的途徑罰則機制標準如何訂你們都細緻的做到包括需要保護的歧視面向你們都列了"},{"start":7663.653,"end":7679.134,"text":"除了法務部在做：我們的人權及轉型正義處也有反歧視法的進展開了好幾場公聽會我都有收集這些資料所以臺灣的政府不是沒有準備在下一頁"},{"start":7680.755,"end":7705.582,"text":"陳建仁院長在回答委員的質詢的時候他也承諾這個是去年接受質詢上個會期他承諾這個會期要送出行政院版本的反歧視法但是他是聚焦於原住民族的種族反歧視然後他責成內政部去談現在就是個問題了我們有內政部從種族歧視下手的種族歧視的法律"},{"start":7706.73,"end":7731.825,"text":"反歧視的法律還有法務部你們自己做好調研我如果沒有給你們壓力沒有提出這個提醒很可能我們就優先去走內政部那一條可是這是一個機會我們可以擴大對於各種形式的歧視all in one一部專法來處理它否則內政部去處理種族歧視的然後性別的放在性別平等三法裡頭我們又回到一個散裂"},{"start":7738.064,"end":7759.297,"text":"主管機關沒有辦法整合社會的共識也沒有辦法趨於更強大的一致性這是一個機會部長您覺得我今天提出來的倡議您認為法務部要不要更積極的去研議你們有的委外研究跟你們已經有的具體版本"},{"start":7760.342,"end":7782.694,"text":"要不要跟內政部談談?要不要跟人權這個平等處談談?您的看法呢?是真的佩服委員對於這一部分深入的研究那剛剛委員所提示的這些重點希望能夠法務部能夠盡力我們會在行政院的人權處開會的時候來做充分的表達"},{"start":7783.413,"end":7811.116,"text":"那您的專業意見您同意我的說法是all in one由法務部來做一個平等法或是反歧視法或者是好內政部去走你的種族歧視法我們做過研究當然我們會提供這個研究的結論講給行政院人權處你知不知道我知不知道我有做研究但是我不知道裡面很詳細的內容但是我們會以這個研究的報告提供給現在在主責的行政院人權處做參考"},{"start":7812.597,"end":7830.557,"text":"我跟您兩個月去對話跟研議好嗎兩個月來跟我講我不是說兩個月要端出法案而是說你們研議cooking跨部會怎麼來分工我們是all in one的方式還是先走種族的反歧視的法我跟你們兩個月時間您好好再跟大家跨部會去談一談好嗎"},{"start":7832.103,"end":7845.315,"text":"我會轉達給行政院這個人權處因為他現在在整合嘛他在主責嘛不要只是轉達啦我看這本很完整的很好啦是很好啦你們能夠Do more and do better"},{"start":7847.439,"end":7861.669,"text":"法律面維持法制序的一致性組織面整合所有的政策工具單一組織來推展制度面我們要創建一個不論誰執政都可以讓反歧視跟平等的價值跟觀念在台灣可以"},{"start":7862.429,"end":7876.002,"text":"可長可久的推展下去所以一部專訪我認為是需要的但是我同時也聽到社會不同的意見他們擔心這樣會對言論有太多的管控有很多可以對話所以透過對話匯聚共識"},{"start":7878.86,"end":7895.007,"text":"立法或修法是我們可以用的政策工具我今天坐在這裡除了發生在我吳思耀自己身上的性別的歧視的事件我要把它正向轉為我的政策能量之外我也要為在天上的陳俊翰律師"},{"start":7896.297,"end":7909.192,"text":"我們要為這樣一個可貴的臺灣的人格者持續不斷的奮鬥下去臺灣不能再有任何人輕易的對於另外的人"},{"start":7911.056,"end":7923.535,"text":"親意的說出歧視性的言論我們要帶著陳俊漢律師的責任跟使命奮鬥下去部長 積極一點您能做的不是只有轉達這一本 寫得很好"},{"start":7926.727,"end":7926.827,"text":"翁曉琳委員"},{"start":7957.39,"end":7974.277,"text":"部長各位司長處長大家好我是翁小玲那我想今天就針對司法院所提出來的這個立法計畫還有部分的業務報告我在這裡提出一些問題想要就教部長那首先我想在這次的部長所提出來的立法計畫裡面有一個很大的部分是為了要這個執行"},{"start":7989.686,"end":8006.104,"text":"打炸綱領必須要增加檢察官助理增加檢察官助理這個部分從去年其實就開始要增加今年又提出了150位的員額"},{"start":8009.366,"end":8024.704,"text":"那我看了一些這個報告新聞然後部長這裡好像預計在2025年大概要增加到600位不知道部長可不可以就您的準備要增加檢察官助理的計畫可以再幫我做個說明謝謝"},{"start":8027.331,"end":8051.793,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那檢察官助理從去年就行政院合給我們100位這是臨時人員那今年再補充再增加另外增加150位這是暫時性的來解決現在我們需要的打詐人力那我們希望能夠讓他能夠在法律上明文的規定在法院組織法裡面增加"},{"start":8053.334,"end":8080.265,"text":"這個明文是可以有檢察官助理那這是第一個說明第二個部分就是600位是整個檢察機關所有的相關人力包括檢察官檢察事務官關護人法警等等所有的檢察人力我們是4年那人事總署行政院核定給我們600位所以跟檢察官助理是兩回事"},{"start":8080.965,"end":8104.53,"text":"好的謝謝部長的說明那麼我現在這個PPT裡面這個可以看得出來其實就目前我們檢察官這個在檢察官的編制檢察士官書記官其他輔助人力的部分其實是還有缺額的那想請問部長為什麼在現在還有編制缺額的情況之下沒有補助而需要再額外增加人力"},{"start":8106.887,"end":8130.738,"text":"不管是檢察官檢察事務官他們如果要入用的話經過考試及格還要經過一段時間的訓練檢察官需要兩年檢察事務官需要九個月所以反不濟急現在打詐需要人力是及時的因此行政院才先給我們一些臨時人力專門在負責打詐的輔助"},{"start":8132.839,"end":8149.02,"text":"那未來當然我們現在有缺額並不是說沒有在使用而是在授訊當中了還沒有分發的這都已經規劃在裡面了不是說沒有用那未來還要再增加的話必須再增加原額"},{"start":8150.459,"end":8173.235,"text":"這是兩回事啦 好 謝謝不好意思 麻煩幫我回到上一個PPT好 OK 對不起 那我想這個因為你們從去年開始你們就已經增加了100位的這個檢察官助理可是我們可以看到其實就整個電信詐騙的這個件數是居高不下好像看起來增加檢察官助理並沒有這個"},{"start":8175.296,"end":8191.554,"text":"真正的可以去協助檢察官然後做更好的一個工作的協助那麼就這個部分來說我個人想要提出一個問題就是檢察官助理跟檢察事務官"},{"start":8192.494,"end":8206.946,"text":"畢竟他們的性質還有他們的專業能力是有明顯不足的就是他們中間的落差很大那就檢察官助理來說目前應該是各個地方檢查"},{"start":8208.147,"end":8229.365,"text":"官自己去招聘對是那麼就他的法律的專業能力各方面不知道就是未來有你們準備怎麼樣的領選方式因為我不希望就是檢察官助理成為是這個他沒有什麼專業能力可是卻只是佔了這個位置沒有辦法不對檢察官"},{"start":8229.813,"end":8253.908,"text":"有提供更好的協助那就這部分的檢察官的助理有沒有可能未來也採取統一的領選領選的方式然後建立起他們有一定的這個法律的素養而不是只是在檢察官旁邊做些這個小助理然後處理些無關痛癢的一些事情"},{"start":8255.7,"end":8277.623,"text":"將來如果規定很明確是法制化以後當然會透過一定的法律程序還要經過嚴格的訓練培育以後才會來分發這個跟檢察官跟檢察書館一樣但是現在是因為要馬上來解決打詐的人力需求所以我們就分配給各地檢自己來招考"},{"start":8278.328,"end":8304.117,"text":"那招考當然有相當的條件所以現在去年才開始實施所以從這個數字看起來還看不出它顯著的效果那去年各地的反應都非常好認為可以幫助檢察官處理一些事務性的東西包括你詐騙的案件的付表的製作資料的彙整幫助很大的所以他們能力是可以負擔他們的工作可以升任的"},{"start":8304.477,"end":8326.571,"text":"那將來的如果是法制化以後當然要求會更嚴格會做統一的規定是其實這個部分的話就法制外面涉及到編制內編之外涉及到整個的國家的人事經費成本的增加請問人事行政總署有同意你們增加這個原額嗎現在就是在協調應該基本上同意"},{"start":8327.563,"end":8350.382,"text":"是嗎?可是我聽到的好像不是這樣當然他們有不同的考慮我不曉得委員指的是法制化的還是指臨時再增加的150位這兩個方向他們其實都是贊同的當然有一些細節的東西經費的來源還有整個總原額法的限制等等他們會提出一些看法"},{"start":8350.842,"end":8357.245,"text":"是因為整個政府機關都是在瘦身所以組織精檢這件事情是很重要那當然我也瞭解有關於現在這個檢查人力的一些配置的問題其實就目前來說有檢查士官有書記官還有其他的這個相關的檢查人力其實應該如果說在整個的檢查的這個程序"},{"start":8373.712,"end":8375.773,"text":"法官和檢察官離職的比例"},{"start":8402.645,"end":8418.242,"text":"有逐年的提高不知道部長可不可以回應一下為什麼會有這樣的一個狀況以及這個檢察官如果他是自願離職的話通常大概會是在什麼樣的一個資歷在什麼樣的位置上面他們會離職"},{"start":8420.905,"end":8450.145,"text":"這是每個人他的一個生涯的規劃他也許擔任過檢察官法官一段時間以後他想要換個跑道但我們都予以尊重當然我們的工作環境的改善也是他考量之一我們也盡最大的能量能夠改善大家的工作環境像檢察官助理就是能夠解決他一些工作負擔的壓力所以每個人他的思考不一樣但是我們會注意到這件事情"},{"start":8450.365,"end":8450.565,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8468.675,"end":8470.076,"text":"其實我很關心受刑人的健康權的問題"},{"start":8490.772,"end":8518.022,"text":"聯合國的受刑人的處遇最低標準規則又俗稱所謂的曼德拉規則裏面有提到為受刑人提供健康照護是國家的責任受刑人應該享有健康照護標準等等並且要能夠獲得必要的照顧不因其他的法律意外受到歧視那當然我們知道現在受刑人已經可以享有健保的醫治可是呢在"},{"start":8519.102,"end":8537.008,"text":"對於受刑人可不可以申請接戶保外就醫的部分其實就目前各地方的監獄還有這個矯正署其實看起來都是審查蠻嚴格的我們看一下這個在矯正署就是一百"},{"start":8542.911,"end":8555.529,"text":"監察院曾經在109年的時候有針對矯正署在有關於受刑人保外就醫的處理的部分提出了糾正案那在這個糾正案裡面最重要的還是認為這個"},{"start":8558.112,"end":8579.568,"text":"金域並沒有還有矯正署並沒有對於其實是需要保外醫治的人士醫治的這個受刑人然後給予他一個及時的治療那麼就這個部分來說大家可以看一下在監察院的調查報告裡面他就其實針對了有一些受刑人他的提出要申請這個保外就醫的"},{"start":8587.535,"end":8609.851,"text":"例子其實我們看到他們申請的這些提出要申請保外就醫的狀況其實都蠻嚴重的可是呢其實我們的矯正署和監獄並沒有同意因此這個矯正署其實在這個部分來說他就提出了糾正案希望未來這個矯正署跟監獄的部分能夠更重視"},{"start":8612.208,"end":8628.274,"text":"受刑人他的這個健康他的這個醫治權那麼我們可以看到其實監察院提出這個報告就代表說其實矯正署跟監獄對於這個受刑人到底能不能申請救護就醫或是保外就醫這件事情審查的非常嚴格可是我們卻在在這些年來我們就看到陳水扁卻不斷的去踩保外就醫的底線"},{"start":8642.383,"end":8661.496,"text":"他從2015年開始到現在已經保外就醫9年的時間請問部長您對於陳水扁他在9年的時間保外就醫他的健康狀況有沒有改善"},{"start":8662.526,"end":8665.047,"text":"可不可以請你提供他這些年來每三個月都要進行訪視有訪視報告吧"},{"start":8690.886,"end":8692.788,"text":"按照SOP的話應該都有訪視報告麻煩請這個您這邊可以把這涉及到個資的問題你們可以去你們這裡沒有什麼好個資的問題吧這應該就是很重要的一個健康改善的一個狀況"},{"start":8708.66,"end":8710.062,"text":"請問部長您認為臺灣的醫療水準如何?"},{"start":8739.716,"end":8763.201,"text":"那為什麼對於像陳水扁他的醫療狀況是這幾年來我們的醫院都沒有醫生都沒有他好好的醫治都沒有他改善嗎那也是我們有請他提出一個醫療這個評估的報告我想請教就是說當很明顯的這樣的醫療報告他是違反一般的經驗常識"},{"start":8765.69,"end":8781.922,"text":"他基本上從一般客觀上面來看他就像是一般的正常人我相信他的健康狀況絕對是比現在受刑人要好很多那我不知道為什麼在這件事情上面法務部矯正署卻沒有作為"},{"start":8785.969,"end":8806.806,"text":"委員報告有關阿扁的這個醫療他是由高雄長庚還有義大那因為他最近有一些爭議的事情發生所以我們包括又指定一個第三家台南的七美醫院來做一些相關專業的診斷那依據我們"},{"start":8811.249,"end":8837.442,"text":"保化醫治的審核規定這是一種我們要依這個規定來臺中監獄會固定去跟他做訪查另外一種是說我們要尊重醫療專業由這三家醫院醫師的診斷來看準不準與他合準跟委員報告一般的受刑人保化醫治是只要提一家醫院就夠了"},{"start":8840.13,"end":8862.39,"text":"我希望你們可以將醫院所提出來的醫療報告再進行第三人的專家鑑定我懷疑這些醫院所提出的醫療報告有沒有偽造有沒有提出假證明那這部分的話我想這是全台灣的民眾都在看的事情"},{"start":8865.425,"end":8882.192,"text":"剛剛吳思堯委員講得很好我們要反歧視我們要平等我希望在這件事情上面我們應該要做到平等不管他之前的身份是如何所有的人都應該要享受到或者是被"},{"start":8883.297,"end":8900.672,"text":"有這個應該都要享受同樣的這個健康治療權以及同樣的在這個這個他們的獸型應該要被處罰的這些這個這些事情而不應該有這麼明顯的差別待遇我相信在台灣的"},{"start":8906.889,"end":8907.71,"text":"請教證署就應該要依法行政好謝謝"},{"start":8926.957,"end":8945.829,"text":"好 謝謝我們稍後在副委員昆齊詢答之後我們先依照開會前宣告的我們會先處理臨時的提案那之後在本席詢答完畢之後我們休息5分鐘那現在先請副委員昆齊進行詢答部長早總總好"},{"start":8955.616,"end":8965.265,"text":"這個現在打炸打炸越打越炸現在已經從102年的18000件到去年的37900件也從102年的損失財務37億到去年的88.79億"},{"start":8975.626,"end":8984.693,"text":"被害人數從一百零二年的兩萬四千人到去年的五萬九千人這個打仗那種法務部都拿不出相關的辦法來嗎"},{"start":8986.224,"end":9005.313,"text":"跟委員說明在法務部的職長範圍內我們也提出了相關的法律的修正那在執行面我們也要求檢警調大家也要全力以赴來做一個有效的打擊還有偵辦這樣子啦對提高刑度的部分是不是法務部可以直接提出來好不好"},{"start":9006.505,"end":9033.174,"text":"行動的提高還有構成要件的更嚴謹各種新的形態的詐騙我們都有在提出修法的一個建議說車手車手然後就重新其實為什麼可以去當一個車手就這麼高的所得他難道沒有一點基本常識嗎對不對所以基本上這就是共犯之義"},{"start":9034.839,"end":9059.199,"text":"所以這個部分可能也要跟司法院也要溝通一下因為車手一切重慶現在幾乎外衣間現在都是詐騙團詐騙團現在都在外衣間而害台灣害得最慘的就是這群人一般的百姓光我就接過不曉得多少次的詐騙電話我接過很多次"},{"start":9062.799,"end":9081.912,"text":"所以我們其實法務部應該拿出辦法來去跟NCC去跟所有這些單位大家一起來商討一個應對的一個辦法不然我們電話一天到晚接到詐騙電話這很奇怪所以部長不要越打越詐"},{"start":9085.347,"end":9110.681,"text":"這個該加重行動就加重行動讓這個問題盡快至少趨勢是下降趨勢不要每一年逐步都在上升我們講喊打仗喊了多少年所以這個東西請部長好不好好 謝謝另外這個我要特別請教一下昨天台南又出現天坑了昨天出現一個天坑這個"},{"start":9118.104,"end":9145.68,"text":"臺南中西區的武飛街出現一個天坑那這個建設公司叫黃龍建設也是賴清德總統當選跟黃偉哲市長競選總部的提供者在昨天發生這個天坑是不是比照一下新竹縣這個貴部約談這個陽文科縣長還要交保重金交保是不是啊"},{"start":9146.522,"end":9175.96,"text":"法務部要印起來一下給大家看一下一樣是天坑辦的方法有沒有不一樣可以嗎?跟委員說明因為每一個案件他的事實內容如何是那就趕快啟動嘛不要跟我講個案不同如果有涉及到刑事責任的話當然檢察官他們會依法處理好那你既然講刑事責任好那一樣的事情那我再請教一下台南市"},{"start":9179.65,"end":9195.32,"text":"經發局陳凱玲前局長是貪污的累犯慣犯為什麼法務部在2022年這個大選前901大選前這個台南88槍開完以後還有這個當街88槍開完以後10槍10槍開完在一個暴頭"},{"start":9208.578,"end":9233.805,"text":"當天槍擊身亡這麼全國矚目這麼重大的事情這個陳海靈局長本身就是貪污的累犯慣犯竟然在去年3月6號在搜索完樂壇員工員工已經講得很清楚科研講得很清楚陳海靈說是上級指示的在資料不齊備的情況之下還要為這個光電業者來辦"},{"start":9236.397,"end":9262.612,"text":"為什麼3月6號就搜索約談要到今年的2月29號才約談黃偉哲市長這很奇怪的事情這在蘭嶼的縣市科研講完隔天就搜索約談為什麼可以躲過這麼長的總統大選期間隔了將近一年才約談部長是不是能告訴我一下"},{"start":9263.251,"end":9263.511,"text":"這是創新高啊"},{"start":9291.162,"end":9295.066,"text":"為什麼一個科員已經公開講陳凱琳局長告訴他是上級指示一個局長的上級是誰秘書長副市長市長是誰"},{"start":9315.219,"end":9342.575,"text":"一個科研他講的話再加上他上面明明這個東西就是資料不全不能辦的為什麼可以承辦又是光電案這麼敏感的事情然後經過將近一年才約談到的市長局長說上級只是那上級在哪裡這在藍營的縣市我看啦可能隔天就約談不認的話就押人取供了"},{"start":9344.045,"end":9370.038,"text":"所以啊我覺得部長司法要如何讓人信服這是非常重要的事情這是皇后的徵鈔欸現在還有人記得這句話嗎皇后的徵鈔是怎麼樣是值多少錢是值多少代價就可以交易的嗎還是值多少官位就可以交易的嗎你們應該秉公辦到底嘛"},{"start":9371.937,"end":9372.717,"text":"我覺得部長我們要將心比心"},{"start":9397.483,"end":9426.24,"text":"司法是我們社會正義防線的最後一道底線如果司法都不能正義那談什麼國家正義司法沒有正義何有社會的互信山水民調也是比較親綠的嘛你可以看看嘛你google一下可以看一下他公佈出來的是台灣公民聯盟請他去做的民調"},{"start":9428.021,"end":9453.997,"text":"所以我覺得這個東西啊真的是部長您是在位最久的法務部長這個部分當然我也是預祝您能夠連任是最好但是這個部分至少要讓大家了解85%什麼時候可以降下來台灣人民認為政治辦案對檢察官有巨大影響85%的人認為是這樣"},{"start":9457.612,"end":9480.257,"text":"所以部長對這個東西要怎麼樣把它降下來請你的腰桿要挺直千萬不要顏色辦案另外本席再請教一下下次你可以今天你能回答就回答不然就下一次回答對言論免責的部分關於大法官509號解釋令"},{"start":9482.759,"end":9507.598,"text":"但是現在不管是網軍、側翼、特定顏色的媒體還有一般民眾我們可以都區分得出來他就是網軍不能永遠法務部就講他IP設在國外然後就沒有辦法現在網軍已經集體都在國外天天在帶風箱、在洗腦、在做人身攻擊法務部的辦法到底是什麼"},{"start":9508.683,"end":9537.902,"text":"能做什麼不能永遠兩手一攤IP在國外我沒有辦法查再過來特定政治立場特異媒體進電視的事情本期在去年7月19號已經質詢過了NCC有條件通過進電視的時候因為清楚在去年2月28號有條件通過它上架"},{"start":9540.706,"end":9562.825,"text":"6年之內不得移轉陳建平已經出來講了這麼多次本席在去年院會質詢也請教過部長培偉的帳號公然揮錢給這些股東陳耀祥也是財務被告你們還在用他治案他到現在多久了到底你們是辦還是不辦"},{"start":9565.438,"end":9592.705,"text":"一個媒體公器一張執照價值連城這是關係到所有全國的聽樂人但你們辦到哪裡去了陳曉祥都要下台了你們辦到哪裡去了有像辦告報案這麼快嗎因為理由是什麼這關係到2300萬聽樂人的"},{"start":9596.625,"end":9624.071,"text":"資的權利啊今天是可以用這種態度他說大股東已經移轉了早就移轉了本席也告訴你檢舉人已經具名告訴就是在陪委的帳號把錢匯給這些原始股東查到現在查了多久了這麼清楚去查一下這是重大的公共議題這不是一個個案是重大的公共議題"},{"start":9626.462,"end":9648.236,"text":"本席去年請教到現在部長你辦一次給大家看一下嘛好不好我們熱烈期待你可以回答嗎委員的指教我都很仔細的聆聽啦我們能夠做的我一定會盡力的趕快幫忙部長你就最大了怎麼叫你能夠做你當然可以做"},{"start":9650.158,"end":9676.17,"text":"社會矚目案件可以不用辦嗎社會矚目案件本來就是要立刻來處理部長這個時候你不能卸責你是法務界的大家長全國矚目的案子能夠不處理嗎不能說查光查一個資金流程要查兩年三年五年嗎所以部長這個事情請儘快"},{"start":9679.073,"end":9684.277,"text":"請給大家一個真相讓全國國人能夠了解好不好 謝謝部長"},{"start":9702.022,"end":9708.549,"text":"好謝謝那我們現在開始處理臨時提案一案那宣讀後再進行處理請宣讀"},{"start":9710.42,"end":9731.995,"text":"臨時提案一,為強化犯罪偵查效能﹐同時避免基層人力過勞﹐敬請法務部針對檢察官﹐檢察事務官﹐書記官﹐檢察官助理﹐法警之人力配置﹐職長分工與工作負擔﹐進行全面檢討評估﹐並針對增加各類人的必要性與具體規劃啟程﹐人力如何重新調整、配置﹐"},{"start":9732.675,"end":9759.929,"text":"等關鍵問題提出完整檢討規劃報告於一個月內送交司法及法制委員會提案人委員黃國昌、坤祺、謝龍介、吳宗憲、羅志強另4名宣讀完畢請問提案委員有無要補充說明黃委員要補充說明沒有我覺得這個事情已經談滿久的了那相關提案委員最近這段時間社會上面的討論"},{"start":9761.257,"end":9781.143,"text":"那基層檢察官團體他們的發聲那還有很多他們面臨現在的辦案壓力我們當然希望不能你要馬而跑又要馬不吃草那因此針對相關合理的提案包括法律的修正我們基本上都支持但問題是"},{"start":9783.052,"end":9803.01,"text":"在面對有關於人力需求的時候重新的針對目前人力的狀況好好的盤整是不是有勞役不均的狀況那其他的輔助人員是不是有必要一併在什麼樣的程度範圍之內增加那我相信行政部門負責任的"},{"start":9804.741,"end":9823.856,"text":"去盤點現在的狀況提出你們的需求那對於本院的委員接下來因為司法院的立法計畫裡面也很具體的把法院組織法要增加檢察官助理禮拜一的時候在立法計畫裡面報告都已經寫出來了"},{"start":9825.632,"end":9831.783,"text":"至於說其他方案輔助人力的部分現在面臨的狀況到底是怎麼樣請法務部能夠一併的盤證"},{"start":9837.144,"end":9864.366,"text":"請問法務部遭案辦理有沒有意見謝謝各位委員的關心那確實能力的需求我們需要極力的及早補充不過要做一個全盤的盤整給我們多一點時間來做評估因為一個月其實包括要做各種能力他的職長還有他能源的需求如何是不是再長一點時間來做規劃"},{"start":9866.786,"end":9868.427,"text":"法務部提出我們競表同意請問法務部如果我們改為兩個月的話有沒有問題"},{"start":9896.888,"end":9898.509,"text":"本件就照修正後通過"},{"start":9923.803,"end":9924.063,"text":"吳召集委員"},{"start":9940.828,"end":9941.028,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9971.008,"end":9971.508,"text":"司法信任度"},{"start":9986.534,"end":9987.475,"text":"案情的內容我不清楚"},{"start":10011.414,"end":10034.79,"text":"我沒有問案情的內容我單純就是問知不知道有16分鐘的錄音不見了不是不見是中斷了16分鐘的錄音我也是看報導的那我們依據刑事訴訟法100條之一其實已經規定的非常明確應該要全程錄音那另外我們也有一個"},{"start":10036.69,"end":10061.484,"text":"我傾向中他是檢察機關還有司法機關錄音錄影資料保存辦法第三條他也規定的非常的清楚一定要全程錄音那今天當事人他對這個部分有意見結果我們公訴檢察官竟然當庭我們不要說嗆他啦在公訴檢察官竟然講說"},{"start":10063.362,"end":10087.723,"text":"中段16分鐘是在與被告跟辯護律師做法律上定義的溝通無關案件內容不明白被告申請勘驗的意義是什麼請問一下部長對於檢察官自己違反刑事訴訟法以及保存辦法規定讓中間16分鐘沒有錄音公訴檢察官的這個說法你認同嗎"},{"start":10089.775,"end":10111.32,"text":"如果整個訴訟程序在進行當中當然應該要連續錄音錄影如果是中間休息或是做其他的那整個訴訟程序中斷那當然就停止錄音這是如果每個案件檢察官本來就是可以來做整個案件處理的流程所以要分辨他的情形如何"},{"start":10114.147,"end":10141.499,"text":"那今天問題就出在這裡就是說我其實我今天提這個並不是說要找誰的麻煩而是說我希望我們把一些問題把它補足不要讓外界因為一些疏失然後對我們產生很大的誤解今天當事人說在這16分鐘裡面檢察辦的檢察官跟他說上面交代要起訴他講這句話那因為沒有錄這16分鐘就導致現在"},{"start":10144.537,"end":10166.135,"text":"各說各話沒有辦法再查下去所以我認為這種事情非同小可因為這個對檢察界的傷害是很大的當然我在這邊我沒有說那位承辦的檢察官真的會去恐嚇被告我沒有做這樣的結論但是是不是因為有這16分鐘沒有錄音"},{"start":10169.331,"end":10175.177,"text":"讓外界對這件事情現在就是羅生門了是不是說我們將來可以要求"},{"start":10177.065,"end":10202.841,"text":"假官在詢問的時候一定要全程錄音錄影如果要連續如果說有真的有一些狀況需要中斷的話一定務必要載明筆錄中斷的原因是什麼這一次的問題是出在沒有載明筆錄結果後來被發現他的錄影是分成兩個不同的檔案中間有16分鐘不見了"},{"start":10204.242,"end":10211.856,"text":"這16分鐘就發生了這樣的糾紛所以是不是麻煩法務部一定要通告各"},{"start":10214.019,"end":10217.402,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":10238.699,"end":10247.025,"text":"就我覺得態度上還是不要去跟人家這樣子強硬的頂回去因為自己不對嘛依法我們就要全程錄影嘛"},{"start":10249.452,"end":10269.61,"text":"請問這部長這一塊能不能夠做到?好,謝謝委員的指教,我們願意來重申要求成辦的檢察官或是公訴的檢察官,那你在任何在行使行事訴訟程序的職權的時候,依照規定,如果應該要全程錄音錄影的,就要照做。"},{"start":10270.691,"end":10270.891,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":10292.551,"end":10292.731,"text":"人力部份"},{"start":10314.85,"end":10323.299,"text":"所以說有希望爭取檢察官助理這當然是善意可是你們有沒有想過就是檢視官現在沒有補滿的比例還蠻高的"},{"start":10326.292,"end":10355.263,"text":"跟委員說明一下檢視官他要經過考試考試及格以後還要參加職權訓練所以雖然有缺額但是都是預控在要給這些要考試的要受訓的人用並不是說完全就擺在那裡不用但是他要一段時間那現在立即要處理的就是打詐缺乏的人力所以我們才會用檢察官助理這樣來立即補足何況法官都有法官助理"},{"start":10355.843,"end":10382.842,"text":"檢察官本來就應該也要在法院組織法要規定有檢察官助理所以我們在法制法之前希望就爭取行政院的支持確實行政院也支持我們看一下偵查的四個核心好了其實偵查四個核心就是內情外情開庭跟寫書類這四個我想這四個是重點那請問一下檢察官助理能夠做到這幾個的哪一件事情"},{"start":10384.122,"end":10412.969,"text":"他只是一個輔助檢察官做行政事務的一個工作所以他是有範圍的限制的不像檢事官檢察事務官他是具有司法警察的身份他可以行使的職權是更寬廣那檢察官助理沒有他只是純粹的一個行政事務的協助而已所以當然要求是不同的工作的內容也不同"},{"start":10415.066,"end":10418.51,"text":"這幾年的離職率太高檢視官離職率也高檢察官離職率也高我先從檢視官這邊開始說起我現在說的每一個東西我都不是"},{"start":10435.79,"end":10457.487,"text":"聽說而是我自己經歷過的還有我自己以前的同事私下會跟我講一些其實檢視官的離職率這麼高有一個非常核心的問題是在於說沒有成就感因為檢視官他雖然我們有檢任的職缺有主任檢察事務官但是目前都沒有25年了都沒有派"},{"start":10459.059,"end":10479.291,"text":"那是不是說 我當然知道啦 我也去思考過說 呃 派了之後 會不會造成那個檢認的檢認的那個大增 或者是說在的那個職缺就不走的這些問題 但是除了這個之外 是不是也要考量看要怎麼解決士氣低落的問題"},{"start":10481.752,"end":10496.941,"text":"因為檢視官他確實他的工作範圍非常的他很廣而且能夠幫助檢察官很多但是如果說像現在的狀況他們士氣不高是不是我們有辦法去用其他制度像我昨天在跟那個"},{"start":10498.842,"end":10519.45,"text":"人事長在談的時候我說像日本的副檢察官制度那是不是就是一個鼓勵他們能夠繼續做下去的一個動力或像部長有一個非常好的德政就是讓他們能夠轉任檢察官這我真的是絕對肯定部長這個決策所以說可不可以再有別的鼓勵的方式"},{"start":10520.67,"end":10549.425,"text":"讓他能夠像譬如說副檢察官的這個制度那副檢察官制度當然可以類似像院方的那個司法事務官他做的某些東西他有一定的法律上效果他不會說像現在的檢事官他他可能在沒有辦法取得這個完全的司法官的這個這個權責所以這部分再麻煩也能夠研議一下其實這個都只是為了要讓他們能夠更有更有動力"},{"start":10551.141,"end":10551.961,"text":"剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯"},{"start":10576.886,"end":10601.367,"text":"我們以前的好同事大家好像是下個月還是下下個月就要離職了其實大家背後的原因都一樣所以說你叫一個醫生已經主治醫師然後又叫他再回去做住院醫師或銀行的經理你最後又叫他回去做櫃檯這樣的制度是不是違反人性他也許解決了A的這個問題但是他創造B的那個問題"},{"start":10603.584,"end":10605.806,"text":"謝謝委員的關心你非常了解我們檢查系統體系能力的狀況"},{"start":10633.524,"end":10633.592,"text":"本集完"},{"start":10633.837,"end":10662.936,"text":"那對於檢察官離職當然每個人他有他的生涯規劃像委員他離職了你就有很多很好的成就那有些人他有另外的規劃我們都予以尊重那至於說二專生三專生這個制度是在我上任之前就已經定案的我只是讓他執行一段時間以後適時的時候來做檢討那也許時間該檢討的時候我們會立即的檢討讓大家有看到自己的遠景"},{"start":10663.837,"end":10683.042,"text":"那至於這個檢視官的部分我們也給他有很多的鼓勵措施包括可以具有律師資格的讓他能夠轉任為檢察官那沒有律師資格我們也需要有一些鼓勵那未來像組長派的派組長組長一段時間有經驗的"},{"start":10686.903,"end":10690.306,"text":"蘇磊的製作上蘇磊一直是檢察官工作量非常大的負荷之一"},{"start":10711.342,"end":10739.541,"text":"起訴的案子現在可能只有10%上下是不是說不起訴處分還是要用力去推廣做檢視因為現在訓練所裡面他沒有交很多檢視的部分那出來分發之後大家也沒有走檢視還是寫的漏漏等但是這個對於檢察官的偵查能量是會有影響的那你花很多時間在起訴書的製作我覺得這是舉雙手贊成但是如果不起訴處分書"},{"start":10741.362,"end":10741.803,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10757.896,"end":10784.797,"text":"有影響之外其實能簡化的就是要麻煩部長要用力推盡量簡化因為現在是檢察官負荷不了一堆檢察官來拜託我說一定要幫忙做那我這個會期接下來幾年我也一定會全力協助檢察官能夠降低一些工作量強化偵查品質但是也是要麻煩部裡面能夠多幫忙最後一張就跟那個部長說明一下我覺得"},{"start":10786.639,"end":10805.76,"text":"這個齁 有時候離開這個檢察官真的不是說隨波逐流或追求金錢權位啦 不是這樣啦所以部長有一次在在這個 我知道部長知道這個新聞我要說明一下啦齁因為我當時的這樣的說法我是在鼓勵留下來的人"},{"start":10806.34,"end":10821.195,"text":"因為大部分人是留下來的少數離開了他就一直在批評現在環境不好怎麼樣那我為了要鼓勵真正留下來願意在衛檢查體系來奮鬥的人我是這樣來鼓勵他們的那他們把它解釋成我是在批評那些離開的人"},{"start":10822.965,"end":10822.985,"text":"委員："},{"start":10845.869,"end":10864.327,"text":"工作環境或是他的所得的報酬跟外界當其他職務不成比例但是我們有使命感我們也靠我們的熱忱來為社會服務我重點是在這裡但是大家把它曲解是我好像是對那些人不滿不是是他們在批評我們我反而告訴我們留下來的人"},{"start":10865.027,"end":10865.207,"text":"謝謝委員給機會說明"},{"start":10890.076,"end":10895.481,"text":"謝謝吳釗緯的詢答接下來依照主席先前的宣告我們先休息5分鐘"},{"start":11343.561,"end":11372.328,"text":"好那我們現在繼續開會請楊委員瓊英進行詢答楊瓊英發言謝謝主席本席要跟部長討論詐騙集團的問題因為我們知道電信詐騙這一些案件跟被告人數已經攀升為所有全國各地檢察署刑案的第一名而且還在增加那部長還好你指示要增加人力指源頭減少案件量"},{"start":11373.648,"end":11396.284,"text":"簡化業務流程多管齊下所以你也成立了合法化的這個檢察官工作負擔研議小組那本期要請教因為檢察官的出走潮年年在發生那要怎麼樣提升辦案的這個效能請教目前小組召開會議的進度如何"},{"start":11397.948,"end":11418.206,"text":"我們提出很多有效的來減輕工作負擔改善工作環境的措施那案件量的源頭如何減少我們也提出一個相關的做法包括像詐欺的案件很多我們怎麼樣把它集中"},{"start":11418.786,"end":11421.089,"text":"本下請教你們除了這一些現在的進程你覺得呢?"},{"start":11436.455,"end":11454.164,"text":"人力的部分除了檢察官助理我們是及時的來補充行政院的支持你們所謂的及時來補充也是大家非常關心的在2023年10月份你用了100個檢察官助理那今年度我們告訴你還是不夠"},{"start":11454.944,"end":11477.103,"text":"所以也聽到了那你預計今年要再增聘150名嗎?這個進度那換句話說要增加這麼多人也就是說的確這個問題是困擾著所有的檢察官以及人民所以換句話說你們規劃分為4年在2022年到2025年的時候呢你要增加的原額增加的原額檢察官機構的原額是600人"},{"start":11479.105,"end":11482.967,"text":"法務部推動的這個法制化的這個檢察官助理的法制化的進度你要怎樣去把它穩住"},{"start":11500.609,"end":11526.005,"text":"跟委員說明一下這是兩回事那600名是4年內當然我給你這個背景給我們是一個原額機制這個100名檢察官助理跟150名檢察官助理這是臨時的對他是閱聘制他不能轉正嘛我已經告訴你啦對所以我們要把它法制化就法院組織法裡面要增訂這個檢察官助理等你這一句話那法制化的這個進度呢"},{"start":11528.036,"end":11549.509,"text":"進度我們已經提出了相關的條文但是因為法院組織法是司法院主管的法規所以要加油因為本席不希望說好不容易你培訓了這一些人雖然他是臨編制度但是有了這個能力之後又都跑掉了那這個會傷腦筋我們支持把他法制化那你們加油好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":11550.47,"end":11550.61,"text":"主席"},{"start":11566.745,"end":11585.189,"text":"展現的一部分引信的還沒跑出來所以你們也來了一個新世代的打擊這個炸氣策略行動綱領的1.5版你們共編了17億的經費但是本市覺得蠻奇怪的你們是12億是做設備場地軟硬體的這個設施支出但總整體打炸經費的67.5%"},{"start":11594.712,"end":11610.726,"text":"5億運用於委辦費、臨時人員的籌資等費用,這樣的資源運用,你覺得它可以去精進你的打詐策略跟推動政策的效能出來嗎?"},{"start":11611.707,"end":11626.556,"text":"所以結論就是要問打仗到目前為止是政府很重要而且專案在做但是人民很痛苦看不到成效我希望聽到你們預計要怎麼做讓人民能夠安心"},{"start":11628.179,"end":11650.859,"text":"我們會結合其他相關的部份大家分工不管是在試炸、煮炸或是懲炸部分、堵炸部分我們都要分工跟部份大家協調好法務部負責的都是最後階段的懲炸所以我們提出的經費需求其實在整個"},{"start":11652.66,"end":11680.514,"text":"打擊詐欺的一個經費裡面也是很少部分不管經費的多少我們要看成效所以我給你分析到你佔的比例是怎麼樣我背景不關你講的這麼清楚所以不管你是施詐賭詐還是懲詐的這個部分最後階段都是人民痛苦的所在啊所以呢這個也就是我經常說的一個政府橫向的主橫向的聯繫是最重要的"},{"start":11680.954,"end":11704.391,"text":"最後靠你在末端也沒辦法所以呢我本期非常希望就是說你們應該要橫向的去聯繫才能夠真正有成效所以最後一個議題也就是接避責保護法本期提案那麼我們都很期待喔很期待喔政府的力量有限民間的力量無窮要怎麼樣讓人民能夠安心請教部長"},{"start":11705.131,"end":11725.824,"text":"本席提案的這個接避責保護法草案你是不是我們一起朝這個方向努力去加速推動審議呢?是,我們會努力所以我們也希望能夠盡快有一個成效讓民間跟政府一起合作讓人民可以更放心對不對?是,是,謝謝委員一起加油那接下來我們請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":11734.481,"end":11763.312,"text":"主席：各位委員：部長：還有法務部的所謂的長官：官員有關今天：這個法務部的業務報告當然通常都會比較少琢磨原住民的部分這個原住民族基本法第30條這個是在民國94年2月5號就公布施行施行到現在已經非常非常久了"},{"start":11765.428,"end":11788.016,"text":"這裡面特別提到政府處理原住民族事務制定法律或實施司法與行政救濟程序公正調解仲裁或劣勢程序應尊重原住民族的族裔族裔的部分都非常落實唯一落實的就是族裔通譯的部分都很落實"},{"start":11790.885,"end":11814.203,"text":"傳統習俗文化及價值觀保障其合法權益第二項政府為保障原住民主之司法權益得設置原住民主法院或法庭當然這個都沒有但是專庭的部分我在101年開始擔任立法委員"},{"start":11815.563,"end":11840.683,"text":"所以我那時候就質詢當時的司法院的秘書長就設了專庭就沒有到這個法院是專庭原住民組的專庭如果涉及到原住民組案件就有一個專庭那法務部也配合原住民組案件的專者的檢察官這個也有"},{"start":11841.926,"end":11860.807,"text":"那現在就是實施這麼多年,101年開始實施到現在。這個原住民族案件的專責的檢察官的部分,即待加強。當然我們都知道檢察官都很忙。"},{"start":11862.148,"end":11887.095,"text":"所以相關的訓練相關的對原住民族的傳統習俗文化價值觀的了解這個部分一直做得不夠一直做得不夠這個我之前我不知道部長在不在場啦之前我曾經針對一個案子"},{"start":11888.462,"end":11914.882,"text":"一個老先生八十幾歲兩年前八十幾歲的老先生他從小就在他父母親留下來的土地從小就跟著父母親在那邊耕種的土地而且是原住民保留地因為這個相公所的一個錯誤也把他出租給這個出租給這個這個瑞穗牧場"},{"start":11919.665,"end":11946.958,"text":"打官司訴訟一審判決當然檢察官起訴檢察官起訴一審判決拜書要有期徒刑八十幾歲一看判決不到一個禮拜就過世身體很好啊不到一個禮拜就過世現在上網看還是有啊"},{"start":11948.134,"end":11975.083,"text":"但是他 結果這個判決是錯誤的後來是發現錯誤的是怎麼樣錯誤的他是用山坡地保育利用條例上的7條來去判他有期徒刑山坡地保育利用條例去判他山坡地 結果一查他不是行政院所核定公告的山坡地"},{"start":11976.536,"end":11994.211,"text":"因為山坡地跟山坡地保育區不一樣山坡地跟山坡地保育區他是山坡地保育區他不等於山坡地何況那個又是原住民保留地所以這個就是不了解所以這個部分是這個"},{"start":11996.861,"end":11999.083,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12025.019,"end":12053.797,"text":"這幾年來五年來好了這五年來對專責案件的原住民主案件的專責檢察官的到底你們有辦什麼樣的一個訓練這個部分請提供可以嗎?謝謝委員的指教那其實我們也有在辦都有在辦但是可以再加強尤其也可以請對原住民文化深入了解的專家學者來跟我們上課我們會再加強"},{"start":12058.158,"end":12083.255,"text":"行事訴訟法95條也是我在一百零一年開始當立法委員我正好在司法法制委員會當初提出修正特別增加了得選任辯護人就是原住民的部分可以得選任辯護人續任被告的時候要選任辯護人現在要去加強的部分是什麼呢"},{"start":12084.605,"end":12111.633,"text":"因為現在你們回去可以統計這5年來統計這5年來因為依刑事適用法95條徇運被告無論是這個警戒可能裡面比較沒有最起碼檢察官的部分很少 為什麼通知來因為警察警方移送過去時間很短"},{"start":12113.267,"end":12129.06,"text":"時間很短要不要申請律師還要等大概都是簽不用這條條文的就沒有辦法落實這個就是怎麼樣去檢討這個過程有的東西其實沒有那麼擠"},{"start":12140.09,"end":12164.898,"text":"這非得要從警方那邊直接就送過去其實可以讓他先回去先把檢察官的這些檢察官也不是那麼容易那個律師也不是那麼容易那麼容易就可以請來還有一些程序所以這個部分一直沒有辦法落實這個部分是不是也去檢討好不好"},{"start":12166.382,"end":12185.171,"text":"謝謝委員指教不過這是法律所要求的一個程序一定要踐行至於能力的不足律師不夠現在的踐行方式就是簽不用現在是這樣拿統計數字就知道了好不好不用 我們了解我們去了解看看好 謝謝"},{"start":12187.349,"end":12187.789,"text":"王世堅委員"},{"start":12214.129,"end":12230.485,"text":"謝謝主席部長其實我頭一次坐著質詢坐下來火氣就減了一半加上部長我們又是舊式另外一半也不見了所以我們今天就好好來討論一個問題"},{"start":12234.141,"end":12258.241,"text":"那你在法務部也7年了大概任期最長的部委首長你可能是最久的就是關於棄保潛逃的這件事情那麼尤其這些重大的犯罪重大不管是經濟犯罪或其他犯罪這是社會最無法接受的事情我就講朱國榮這件案子"},{"start":12259.822,"end":12267.151,"text":"你看去年他判刑十幾年他那麼多條罪那麼社會眾目睽睽之下"},{"start":12269.076,"end":12293.619,"text":"那他竟然繳交了五億元的重寶之後那氣泡潛逃他還不是做那個鐵殼 鐵湯下去的他是搭豪華遊艇出去 天啊然後我們竟然是事後 四天之後才發覺啦所以我要問你的就是說 到底我們的防逃機制"},{"start":12295.785,"end":12323.268,"text":"我們現在國內有八萬個通緝犯然後有八千位潛逃出國剛剛講的那個朱國榮他繳五億元之後輕輕鬆鬆跑掉這五億元變成是他買的贖罪券他繳了這五億以後贖罪券買了以後我們就讓他可以自由進出了如入無人之境"},{"start":12324.749,"end":12345.346,"text":"那我八個字形容我們在這一個部分法務部在如何防逃機制的建立這個部分我八個字形容就是束手無策一籌莫展"},{"start":12347.203,"end":12376.024,"text":"數所無策一籌莫展那稍微可以用的你們又顧忌說啊有聲音啊人權團體在講電子繳還就好你們又說這個人權的問題奇怪啦我們政府這麼多年來都重視加害者的人權那被害者還有我們無辜的民眾們是如何的看法他捲款上百億跑掉"},{"start":12378.132,"end":12399.236,"text":"這個損失的除了直接受害者以外還有間接的我們2300萬國民所以類似這種重大的經濟罪犯潛逃出國的話這不但扼傷了司法威信這更是讓我們全民對司法正義的期待徹底的幻滅徹底的幻滅"},{"start":12407.168,"end":12425.093,"text":"如果我們能夠建立好這個機制那至少給全民看到說司法是有正義的法律要對強者有效社會才有公平正義法律要能夠制裁懲戒這些惡劣者"},{"start":12432.711,"end":12460.074,"text":"社會才有公平正義不是這樣嗎法律不是用來對付生抖小民對付那個手無縛肌之力的弱小者不是這樣欸但是我們在層層的所謂人權吶還有大家的怠惰之下啊跑了就跑了不然要怎麼辦啊竟然過去竟然有說對啦跑了啦吼但是啊這個吼"},{"start":12461.601,"end":12488.512,"text":"人總是會死的嘛他早晚也會老死啦天啊司法的正義要靠這些犯罪者讓天處罰說吃到老老死去那不是廢話嗎那何謂司法正義所以我認為這個部分我希望那個部長第一點"},{"start":12489.793,"end":12505.439,"text":"你看過很多這些防逃機制很可能我們各黨各派都有相對的提案我希望看到部長以你主導之下願版的防逃機制法案是什麼比方說我們對這個所謂有人權爭議的這個電子腳環那我們的態度是什麼"},{"start":12515.02,"end":12541.89,"text":"至少加了這個他沒辦法去上豪華遊艇吧不是嗎那這個部分我希望看到說院版的法案是什麼對策是什麼第二點對這麼多還可能在審理中或者已經判決的極可能有潛逃出國疑慮者"},{"start":12543.223,"end":12561.456,"text":"那是不是你們要想方設法趕快有一個積極的做法對應因為法務部以你們的權責你們可以指揮全國的檢調全國的警察甚至可以要求海巡來配合來幫忙"},{"start":12562.797,"end":12586.514,"text":"天吶我看那天你們可能這種通令根本不夠也疏忽掉我看朱國榮搭著豪華潛艇出國的時候海星看到他也不知道搞不好還跟他打招呼勒因為他不是中共的黑船嗎不是嗎所以這是這個事情已經到了荒唐的地步啦荒唐的地步所以我再一次的強調"},{"start":12588.376,"end":12593.658,"text":"不能讓這些重大尤其是經濟犯罪者讓他買了贖罪券就跑了然後對那法務部還有一個聲音還有一個聲音說"},{"start":12603.691,"end":12626.189,"text":"這個反正他繳了嘛 繳了無益了齁 這個已經把他懲罰了本來啊 我們民間一直有一個呼聲說 希望來推動有一個棄保潛逃罪加重他的刑責 結果會反對的竟然我聽到的是法務部部份的聲音說 一罪不兩罰還都已經把他沒收保金了 還罰什麼罰呢 那就我講的嘛"},{"start":12629.847,"end":12650.157,"text":"那這些保金不管多重金額多大那就是買熟罪券的觀念喔天啊那這個司法正義在哪裡所以部長我希望這一點你能夠積極的有作為有回應那我也拜託主席不好意思是不是幾十秒給部長回應一下好嗎"},{"start":12652.681,"end":12673.875,"text":"委員關心的這個議題我們其實很早不管在法制面或是在執行面都有採取一些相關的措施法制面棄保潛逃罪我們在108年就提出了一個草案出來了108年就已經送到行政院去審查那執行面在"},{"start":12674.676,"end":12697.982,"text":"法律還沒有有效的遏止之前我們也是有電子監控這樣的措施那朱國隆的個案因為是在法院審理中嘛這個當然我們可以建議法院應該要多採取如果交保的話多採取電子監控因為他原來是只有報導而已啦報導是不夠的能夠再施以電子監控那是更好"},{"start":12698.382,"end":12725.239,"text":"那如果在偵查中我們對要嚴懲這種幫派組織犯罪或是重大的金融犯罪一定要嚴格的來收證來申請計壓萬一申請計壓法官不准的話我們就要施以電子監控這樣的防範的措施這個我們都會考慮不過委員的建議我們還會再深入的再來加強謝謝我希望重建我們的司法威信謝謝"},{"start":12727.352,"end":12733.318,"text":"陳庭菲委員黃珊珊委員氣保潛逃罪108年送過來,行政院有沒有送到立法院?"},{"start":12752.416,"end":12761.767,"text":"108現在是113所以行政院是不想提是嗎沒有已經很密集的開會了所以開了五年都還不知道來審議五年了"},{"start":12765.765,"end":12791.797,"text":"開了5年的會 棄保險逃 法務部很認真 行政院不提就對了是嗎 現在今天的結論是這句話不是 我們說該做的事情我們已經做了所以民眾黨團已經幫你提了 謝謝這個會期 我想司法法制委員會這邊各個黨團應該都支持所以這個會期 你們會不會像行政院一樣繼續待多到5年後再來審"},{"start":12793.988,"end":12815.227,"text":"委員會這邊如果排審的話當然我們會樂意的來說明那行政院為什麼沒有送出來他要徵詢各方的意見在考量所以徵詢各方的意見就發生剛剛講的出國容重點在於我想我們大家都念法律因為氣保潛逃沒有"},{"start":12817.011,"end":12833.061,"text":"因為這樣而接受到進一步的處罰所以大家都起跑潛逃第二個他回來執行之後他也不會因為這樣子減少他在假釋門檻或者是他接下去的刑罰執行對吧所以無所謂啊跑了"},{"start":12834.475,"end":12848.944,"text":"損失點錢再抓回來還是一樣日子一樣過部長這叫做司法公信力這個的損失不是一兩個潛逃的人可以扳回來的你同意嗎"},{"start":12849.912,"end":12850.292,"text":"我同意"},{"start":12872.782,"end":12891.202,"text":"我們內部的討論會議當然為什麼問題出在哪裡原因為何什麼樣的狀況下對於氣保潛逃有五年都沒有辦法有進展這是請你給我一個回報說明沒關係我要知道你們開了幾次會給我大事記就好了"},{"start":12892.889,"end":12900.156,"text":"臺灣已經成為詐騙執照我相信這次對我們來說都是非常難堪的然後打詐剛剛部長講了很多我們要增加人力我們要給他很多的設備或者是給他很多的配置但是"},{"start":12915.851,"end":12916.612,"text":"我同意就是要全面性的來防堵啦"},{"start":12934.753,"end":12935.093,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12956.76,"end":12982.716,"text":"是有發現這樣的案例所以虛擬貨幣在台灣有一些相關的算是有經過我們相關金管會這邊管理的業者他們其實一直希望建立一個所謂的反詐平台因為他們跟銀行一樣他們有賬戶他們有異常交易他們也想通報可是部長你知道他們現在跟刑事局跟調查局其實都有很好的合作但是"},{"start":12983.803,"end":12984.904,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13006.221,"end":13032.142,"text":"他們現在的方式是用傳真機傳真機我們好像很久已經沒有用到傳真機了部長我現在就有一個問題詐欺犯能不能抓到是一個狀況其實民眾更關心的是我被詐騙的金額能不能要回來抓到他然後他兩手一攤一毛錢也沒有強制執行也不可能有錢錢抓不回來這個詐騙"},{"start":13034.676,"end":13040.203,"text":"就算抓到了那些車手就算抓到了人頭賬戶還是沒有意義你同意吧"},{"start":13041.018,"end":13067.6,"text":"我同意我們盡力的來追回這些賬款這個虛擬資產平台他們其實很想建立一個跟警方檢方調查局甚至派出所溝通的平台但目前為止他們都要一對一的去做聯絡昨天我有跟蘇巴部長唐鳳部長討論其實政府是不是來可以來協助成立這樣的一個通報平台"},{"start":13068.32,"end":13090.445,"text":"因為我剛剛講這個聯防平台包括165我們現在可能也有跟他有連線但是一樣要一對一而且要透過傳證機這個時代還用傳證機的單位不多啦如果有相關的溝通平台的話可能可以加速所謂的通報加速所謂虛擬資產業者他們凍結這個異常帳戶如果我們能夠把錢凍下來我們就可以"},{"start":13097.981,"end":13098.161,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":13122.07,"end":13146.315,"text":"將來人力的配置要怎麼樣去管制所以我認為法務部在這上面如果我們一直在後端增加檢察官的人力增加這些相關的後端的處理不如協助他們在前端包括調查局刑事局這些單位他們跟這個虛擬資產平台先做一個通報機制銀行現在應該有但是銀行"},{"start":13147.015,"end":13169.66,"text":"通報完了還是到我們的165這邊他還是一個比較傳統的路徑要花很多時間然後再去凍結的時候可能已經來不及了所以部長對於這個部分的是不是可以請你跟速發部來合作研議一下這些業者也願意來配合怎麼樣把錢能夠及早凍結我想才是打詐讓詐騙集團沒有辦法那麼快的得逞"},{"start":13174.079,"end":13174.199,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":13194.506,"end":13209.332,"text":"這三個東西他們想做但是可能需要公部門的協助謝謝委員的建議我們很樂意跟速發部甚至內政部大家一起來內政部所屬的刑事警察局還有我們服務部的調查局"},{"start":13210.232,"end":13235.886,"text":"甚至金管會也可以拉進來這個是為人民好的現在的平台目前為止都是他們個別在處理另外就是虛擬資產業者在台灣目前是登記有25家合法但是有更多的是在境外他們在台灣沒有相關的工具但是他們也非常願意協助這個部分應該是說我們把這些有實際國人在使用的虛擬資產平台然後發生過詐騙的"},{"start":13239.192,"end":13241.594,"text":"所以部長拜託我希望這個狀況是不是可以在一個月左右給我一個初步的你們"},{"start":13266.169,"end":13266.209,"text":"謝依鳳委員"},{"start":13290.497,"end":13316.672,"text":"張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員接下來請審法會委員發言"},{"start":13322.15,"end":13335.041,"text":"好,謝謝主席。部長午安。委員好。首先,我先感謝我們法務部檢察司這次幫忙協調有關這次律師的基礎訓,因為報名名額的關係,我們名額開810個,今年大概有將近1000人報名。"},{"start":13348.203,"end":13370.702,"text":"那所以因為這個這個你一年如果說沒這個基礎訓沒有辦法再延一年就對對每一個這個律師都來這個新科律師來講都是生涯規劃的一個很大的影響啊那我們感謝這個那個檢查檢查室跟這個全聯會齁這是積極協調會確認是不是我們確認在第6提示會加開原額是加開原額但是現在"},{"start":13377.387,"end":13405.489,"text":"我看到的就只有原則啦原則會加開原應該會在今年都會讓他們完訓但是具體的場地時間規劃通知都還沒有收到啦齁那這個部分是不是請我們能夠盡快的作業讓這個確保考生這些考生我們要給他們公平的對待跟這個善盡告知的義務希望說是不是能夠我們能夠盡快的把這個"},{"start":13408.252,"end":13423.471,"text":"這個相關的安排確定的安排能夠來統治這些受訓者好謝謝委員我們一定會全力來配合然後讓他們想要在今年度能夠受完律師訓了都能夠來完成對這個是比較"},{"start":13425.629,"end":13440.146,"text":"再來就是說明年度是不是不要再發生類似的情況我們在這個預算的編列上面在這個計畫上面我們看起來都是比較保守不過跟委員說明這個是全立會他們是"},{"start":13441.408,"end":13441.428,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":13468.223,"end":13494.669,"text":"接下來我看今天早上每一個委員質詢大概最關心的都是這個詐騙案有關這個詐騙案相關的辦理為什麼這麼多委員會關心這個這顯然在台灣這個民意大家都已經認為說台灣的這個詐騙案件已經是相當的嚴重了包括每一個人的個人生活經驗裡面都多少會收到"},{"start":13496.129,"end":13522.277,"text":"大概我們包括我們這個剛剛所講的這些檢察檢察官助理這些等等這些相關的人士編織這些部長大概早上都已經做了說明我這邊就不再重複詢問了問題是這個部長是不是能夠讓大家知道瞭解說目前像我知道說目前這些這個我們的這個這些詐騙案件這個還有包括這些這個"},{"start":13526.363,"end":13544.567,"text":"暴力妨礙自由等等這些相關的案件的不起訴處分的這個比率好像相當的高將近到七成不起訴處分那這個在實務上面他到底最大的困難是在哪裡"},{"start":13546.18,"end":13566.85,"text":"當然就是證據上的問題啦那很多詐騙他的手腕也不斷的翻新啦那有些被告的辯解那有時候我們沒辦法去找到證據來給我這個部分就是一般民眾大家所不解的地方"},{"start":13568.376,"end":13579.585,"text":"人家說道高一尺 謀高一丈但是我們我們是應該要謀高一尺 道高一丈這些手法不斷的翻新沒有錯每次都有新型態的尤其是這個在現在的這個通訊詐騙上面"},{"start":13585.114,"end":13612.943,"text":"當然它會有一些新的形態的詐騙我們每針對一個形態我們去破解之後它會有一些新的形態那最重要就是這個現在因為它又牽涉到第三方支付又牽涉到虛擬貨幣又牽涉到這些通訊平台這些網路的這些詐欺這些部分上面在舉證上面目前我們應該是要我們不能說因為形態新的所以我們雙手一攤說這個現在實在犯罪形態"},{"start":13613.883,"end":13643.583,"text":"更新我們政府沒有辦法很抱歉大家自己小心這個不管怎麼樣也不是這個態度吧是所以我們這個這個這個部分我們是不是能夠在包括說現在我們跟這些相關的這些通訊平台上面有什麼樣司法上面我們有跟他們什麼樣的協議那有哪一些平台是能有跟我們這個我們國家司法單位司法跟警察單位合作有哪一些平台是沒有到目前為止沒有辦法取得他們的協助的"},{"start":13644.563,"end":13646.004,"text":"我看到這個111年行政院有公布這個詐騙目前"},{"start":13670.549,"end":13696.497,"text":"這個前三名大概第一名是這個假網路拍賣這個是第一名第二名是投資詐欺第三名是解除分期付款的詐欺112年有沒有統計我們現在新型態的這個我們現在112年已經過了過去的這一年我們的這個相關的這些這些詐騙案件他的類型他的成長案件數的成長我們有沒有做統計"},{"start":13697.517,"end":13698.378,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們調查局所處理的大概是比較"},{"start":13721.499,"end":13746.316,"text":"比較重大型的因為我們人力的關係所以有一些比較像倒賣帳戶或者是這種車手的案件我們比較少處理這個不用再詳細講就是說我希望能夠看到像這個111年入行政院所發布這樣子的統計就是我們的相關不同類型的詐欺案件它的成長"},{"start":13747.096,"end":13748.477,"text":"我們以調查局處理的案件為例就是我們從111年的6月到112年的6月"},{"start":13763.809,"end":13787.319,"text":"那我們處理的最多的應該是投資型的詐欺案件這差不多佔了75%投資型的那另外還有這個戀愛型的詐騙案件他大概是佔10%那剩下的還有一些是假冒公務單位檢察官或法官的這種詐騙案件你是不是會後能夠做一個統計數字給我"},{"start":13793.53,"end":13817.502,"text":"我想這個還是在目前這個包括這個剛剛也很多委員提到這個相關詐欺這些所得金額的這些查扣的部分我們現在目前這個在查扣動作上面都有一些問題這個是一般大概受害者最詬病的地方這部分希望我們這個法務部能夠跟這個"},{"start":13818.763,"end":13839.873,"text":"司法院這邊齁大家能夠在這方面齁能夠做一些協調啦齁能夠阻斷這樣子他們的這個能夠讓這個查扣的金額能夠這個時間能夠加快啦好不好那另外齁這還在一點時間我這個這個請問一下目前這個有關齁我們現在立法院大家在談這個"},{"start":13842.472,"end":13867.784,"text":"國會調查權的問題這部分我看到我們法務部的態度當然是說尊重立法院我們自己對立法院的尊重但是事實上這個有關於牽涉到偵查不公開的部分司法進行中的案件的這些部分我想這個跟我們法務部有極大的相關過去大法官也做了"},{"start":13868.664,"end":13886.238,"text":"三次的解釋有關於這個調查權跟這個我們現在正正辦中的司法案件他的相關的這些這些憲法的解釋那這部分部長我是希望部長你除了尊重立法院以外齁因為這個東西你不要立法院立出來之後然後大家再來爭執說你這個調查權跟"},{"start":13888.956,"end":13889.156,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13911.238,"end":13923.226,"text":"立法院的調查權是根據立法院的職權刑事法還有相關的規定所訂定的我們當然要尊重但是涉及到如果是還在偵查中的案件"},{"start":13923.826,"end":13946.827,"text":"那大法官的解釋也有說要保障檢察機關的獨立行使職權就是不能夠來要求我們在偵查中案件的一個提供相關的證據這個是應該是很清楚的這個部分在我希望說在未來因為我想在未來這段時間這個議題他還會在立法院繼續進行希望說這個我們法務部能夠"},{"start":13947.808,"end":13969.373,"text":"就這個部分能夠表達我們這個實務上面以及這個包括這個過去大法官所做的解釋對於我們這個偵查權的保障這個部分我希望能夠法務部能夠在這個過程中能夠表示態度不要等到立法完成之後大家再來國會再跟這個我們檢調單位再有這樣子的相關的爭執好不好好謝謝"},{"start":13974.813,"end":13979.935,"text":"主席有請部長法務部有沒有自己的統計全台有多少通緝犯還沒有落網逍遙法外的"},{"start":14003.926,"end":14024.464,"text":"我們有我們的統計目前總共是5.5萬目前通緝中的包括偵查中的有2.9萬多然後審判中的是9千多執行中的是1.7萬所以加起來5.5萬那潛逃出境大概多少人"},{"start":14029.747,"end":14030.067,"text":"請證書統計說18萬為什麼會有落差"},{"start":14042.163,"end":14068.157,"text":"8萬他可能是累計的有些他已經棄貨的你講的是2019年到2023年嘛對不對我講的數字是目前在統計中法務部的統計中目前統計中那累計的話當然那是另外一個就是說你抓到了又放掉了才會有8萬多這樣的一個數字我也許這個行政他真的在外面多少真的在外面是5萬8還是8萬"},{"start":14069.798,"end":14072.781,"text":"警政署統計說潛逃出境大概8000人,為什麼法務部沒有統計呢?沒有做境管"},{"start":14091.072,"end":14104.682,"text":"由裕蘭委員去年10月曾向法務部司法院索取資料那當時就說沒有統計潛逃出境的部分嘛 對不對可是我覺得在犯罪防治當中這一點不重要嗎"},{"start":14106.545,"end":14107.166,"text":"檢討出境人數的掌握"},{"start":14129.195,"end":14129.876,"text":"警政署統計基礎在哪裡?"},{"start":14153.473,"end":14161.898,"text":"那要請教他們我覺得你們還是要連線一下我想請教一下就是我國目前矯正機關收容人數大概是多少?"},{"start":14161.898,"end":14177.807,"text":"最多可以收容多少人?目前我們知道是我看到數據是五萬五千人五萬五千四百二十六人那這就有一點奇怪了你現在跟我講說五點五萬的氣泡潛逃 對不對?"},{"start":14181.363,"end":14206.263,"text":"通緝中5.5萬通緝中那你現在監獄就只有5.5萬的容量啊容量應該不止啊我們現在整個容量收容多少人比現行收容的好我們的容量還更大更大所以如果說把這個5.5萬的你講說通緝犯都抓到基本上還是收容的那個空間還是夠"},{"start":14208.615,"end":14229.288,"text":"通緝犯抓到以後抓到以後如果在偵查中跟委員說明如果偵查中檢察官認為問清楚了根本不需要羈押就不會送到矯正署去了審判中法官也是一樣通緝來了這個人說明清楚了也可能交保也可能賜回所以不一定要全部都要送到對我意思說如果扣掉這些你覺得還是夠就對了"},{"start":14231.278,"end":14240.637,"text":"收容矯正機關有分兩個 一個是看守所是在﹖我不管看守所或其他矯正機關 基本上你覺得現在空間是夠的就算全部通緝犯都抓到"},{"start":14242.306,"end":14261.715,"text":"沒有問題啦 因為還有法官檢察官他可能當場就釋放他就會交保或是施以電子監控等等不一定全部都會送到矯正機關來那部長我想請教一個問題就是說因為其實我也要感謝啦因為我看到七寶潛逃之後已經你們列在那個立法計畫裡面嘛 對不對"},{"start":14263.015,"end":14269.569,"text":"那我想請問你要怎麼樣去來推動這個棄保檢討罪重點是什麼重要在哪裡為什麼這個這個立法計畫為什麼重要"},{"start":14274.004,"end":14300.417,"text":"當然我們也順應民意的要求事實上我們很早就有體會到說這個是確實對於拒保的這些被告或是嫌疑犯他是有出庭的義務否則的話整個案件沒辦法繼續的進行下去那我們要用什麼樣的方式當然除了刑事法之外也有其他的方式大家能夠共同來確保整個刑事訴訟程序能夠順利的進行"},{"start":14303.086,"end":14323.207,"text":"官方部長說其實這個立法非常重要那這也是我這個會期我是第一個參議要推動棄保潛逃罪的那我也看到那個過去長期推動這個法案的黃國昌委員他也領先民眾黨也提出了法案所以目前看起來在野黨已經有共識連法務部基本上都是贊成這個立法"},{"start":14324.068,"end":14349.764,"text":"那我想請問一下為什麼從2019年9月提報行政院審查之後目前召開11次會議審查拖了4年多的時間那現在目前到底程序是卡在哪裡那因為行政院還繼續的來看還沒通過行政院院會是嗎當然如果要由行政院來提那當然要經過院會才會送到大院來"},{"start":14351.691,"end":14371.466,"text":"你覺得有什麼送過來的方式比較好什麼送比較好都可以啊委員如果急著要提案的話那我就問因為已經在行政院審查的會議當中其實拖了4年時間那到底是卡在什麼地方有什麼反對的論點是什麼那各界有不同的看法"},{"start":14373.606,"end":14401.464,"text":"另外我想請教您因為我看到羅秉成政委回應七寶潛逃罪的修法他說被告犯罪重刑期很高根本不在乎七寶潛逃罪二到三年刑期所以對效力跟效果存疑我想請問你認同這個說法嗎這也是考量之一可是基本上接下來你考量了羅秉成政委的說法之後我們的七寶潛逃罪你有什麼樣"},{"start":14402.642,"end":14425.673,"text":"的一個方向會說你覺得可以可以把它意見考量進去的很多方法啦你說把它提高刑度也許大家覺得喔這個很好但是要真正的落實你刑度高法官要判得下去然後刑法也不是唯一的方法而已每一個都是要用重刑來處罰"},{"start":14427.014,"end":14441.602,"text":"那是不是能達到效果所以法案上比例原則也要考慮進去嘛我的看法很簡單啦就是說基本上你今天犯的本刑跟棄保潛逃基本上他那個侵犯的法義是不相同的嘛 對不對"},{"start":14442.819,"end":14458.448,"text":"對 因為每個他可能涉及的個案不一樣所以因此基本上我覺得本來就是應該要可以所謂的棄保潛逃罪這個問題基本上我跟法務部是看法是相同但是我現在要問你另外一個問題因為大家這一段時間大家都很關心詐欺的問題 對不對那我想請問就是說"},{"start":14463.231,"end":14483.474,"text":"目前根據最高檢察署的統計2018年迄今詐欺犯是高居各地檢察署收件案件之首是吧應該是那平均累計已經到75萬件那我想請問你平均的年增率達多少"},{"start":14484.612,"end":14504.868,"text":"我這邊數據是28啦那我想請問齁就詐騙橫行這個創新高我們財損也不斷的創新高齁可是目前我們是判決有罪定業的詐欺犯齁這個大概是7萬人嘛 對不對那重刑3年以上大概是多少人?355人 對不對呃我"},{"start":14509.269,"end":14522.347,"text":"也曾經回答過委員的質詢我也認為說確實判決的刑度是偏低的啦所以也請你這個一併考慮好不好在修法上一併考慮因為說真的這個詐騙已經變國恥了啦"},{"start":14524.929,"end":14542.895,"text":"實際上對詐騙已經是有點忍無可忍另外其實我也看到另外一個狀況就是說基本上除了詐欺的態樣也有開始有一點點不太一樣因為現在詐欺之外也開始出現了很多對民眾肆虐控制拘禁妨礙自由的這些"},{"start":14543.775,"end":14543.935,"text":"發言委員．"},{"start":14563.225,"end":14590.038,"text":"這個是統計應該是防害自由的案件但是是不是跟詐欺有關聯當然這是不同的議題但是我要講的是說確實我們在看到許多詐欺包括之前包括像那個青埔淡水對不對都發生而且很嚴重後來造成就是有民眾死亡那像這種所謂的詐欺的形態伴隨拘禁跟防害自由的形態確實有增加嗎還是在你看起來沒有增加"},{"start":14590.994,"end":14612.294,"text":"是有發生啦那有沒有統計大概的狀況這伴隨著太陽我這邊其實給我們部長一個建議就是說很多的一些犯罪的太陽跟他的形式跟數字我覺得可能要與時俱進啦就是說能夠掌握得更好更精確的話也有助於犯罪增防所以以上"},{"start":14612.754,"end":14612.854,"text":"感謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":14641.254,"end":14658.89,"text":"本日所有的委員都已經發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢的時候 有要求提供的相關資料或是以書面答覆的部分 那請能夠盡速交給各個委員還有本會"},{"start":14660.475,"end":14687.77,"text":"那本次的會議到此結束那另外對了再麻煩法務部麻煩部長就是本席剛剛發言的那幾件事情就麻煩能夠幫我們弄清楚一下那我這邊一定會持續的追因為這幾個點我個人認為對檢方的現在以及將來的發展都有很大的關聯性那請法務部這邊一定要幫忙處理這一塊"},{"start":14688.59,"end":14691.665,"text":"好 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end":1869.483,"text":"主席王昭吉委員定語,報告事項,因宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定。二,邀請國軍退出與官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告業務概況．並備質詢。國軍退出與官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告委員沈博洋等13人質詢。"},{"start":1878.767,"end":1898.637,"text":"均由國軍退出以官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬﹑副主任委員李文忠﹑服務照顧處處長曹東發﹑救養養護處處長周新國﹑臺北榮民總醫院院長陳威明﹑臺中榮民總醫院院長陳世安及高雄榮民總醫院院長陳金順等即席答覆。"},{"start":1899.677,"end":1918.083,"text":"決定一登記質詢這場委員均已發言完畢報告及巡打結束二委員口頭質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請國軍退出與官兵輔導委員會於二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員令指定期限者從其所定宣讀完畢"},{"start":1921.573,"end":1936.649,"text":"請問在場委員對於上一次會議的議事錄有遺漏錯誤需要更正的地方沒有的話我們議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項二邀請國防部部長邱國正報告業務概況．並備質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":1940.37,"end":1968.076,"text":"我們先介紹在場的委員我們陳永康委員請坐請坐請坐你這樣後面沒有站起來他們就很不好意思美玲請坐羅美玲委員然後我們林楚英委員沈伯陽委員這是我們現在目前到場的委員另外今天列席的官員的部分有我們國防部部長邱國正"},{"start":1970.751,"end":1973.055,"text":"副參謀總長執行官鄭榮峰常務次長楊基榮權動署署長白潔龍那"},{"start":1985.69,"end":2011.683,"text":"我們待會介紹有一些將領跟官員還沒有到場我先跟本會員做兩個會議的宣告因為今天早上國防部的車輛有一些狀況所以現在派另外一台車子去接駁所以有一些官員在路上現在大概十分鐘內就會到所以我還是依序介紹但沒有到的部分他們不是遲到就車輛發生一些問題現在在接駁中另外一個是因為禮拜四"},{"start":2012.523,"end":2032.502,"text":"今天有大軍談那軍談的部分呢我們邱國正部長呢有事前來了架單今天他會出席我們國防委員會到12點12點後他必須要參加軍談我想軍談是國家非常重要運作的業務按照往例本會都會於準價所以屆時12點"},{"start":2036.585,"end":2063.033,"text":"邱部長赴總統府參加軍談之後改由副部長博鴻輝代理向我們與會的委員做宣告好我們接下來繼續介紹總督察長是總督察長李兆明中將政務辦公室主任廖建新政治作案局局長陳玉琳"},{"start":2065.334,"end":2087.838,"text":"陳玉玲是我們首位女性的政治專局中將是我們台南人歡迎來我們這邊練習然後再來是軍備局局長黃清培主計局局長謝其賢軍醫局局長蔡建松戰規司司長李士強資規司司長鄧克雄"},{"start":2098.554,"end":2115.864,"text":"法律司司長沈世偉整評司司長苗慧芬國防採購事主任趙雅萍人事參謀次長是次長劉佩智情報參謀次長是次長顏有嫻作戰及計劃參謀次長是次長陳文新"},{"start":2123.732,"end":2136.317,"text":"後勤參謀次長是次長陳道輝通信電子資訊參謀次長是次長盧建宗訓次是次長張俊志次長你怎麼沒有在車上"},{"start":2146.228,"end":2151.172,"text":"陸軍司令部參謀長陳建毅中將海軍參謀長邱俊榮空軍參謀長曹敬平後備指揮部參謀長薛淵全縣指部參謀長呂正芳"},{"start":2176.04,"end":2181.425,"text":"陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長﹑劉青勛支通電軍指揮部參謀長﹑陳俊良軍事情報局第一處處長﹑鄧敦仁"},{"start":2191.499,"end":2213.637,"text":"也跟我們與會的同仁報告有關我們國防外交委員會情報你請坐我們情報業務基於情報保密我們都只介紹主管管那下面的單位主管我們通常名字這在之前就已經建立的就不對外揭露所以剛才是第一處處長那電展室副主任萬鴻生中科院院長張忠誠"},{"start":2219.924,"end":2240.074,"text":"其他的部分因為在路上還在來到委員會當中那我是先詢我們委員同意我們先讓國防部長做業務報告他業務報告當中我們相關的人員就會到場大家有沒有意見我補充介紹那個林益君委員"},{"start":2242.512,"end":2262.699,"text":"李委員你剛才沒有到我兩個宣告跟你補充說明一個是國防部的列席官員從大直本部過來的車輛發生一些狀況所以現在在換車換了車現在已經上車了往委員會當中所以我們剛才詢問大家同意我們程序進行然後應該馬上就會到了這第一件事第二個禮拜四"},{"start":2263.519,"end":2289.099,"text":"國防部長要到總統府進行所謂的軍談那這個軍談是重要的會議按照我們委員會往例都會準價所以待會部長會列席到12點大概本委員會的委員都會問到都會問到到12點之後改由我們博鴻輝副部長代表出席該會場的委員是沒有意見了好我們接下來進行的程序請國防部部長邱部長上台進行報告"},{"start":2305.151,"end":2327.005,"text":"主席、各位委員先進。今天我應邀到大院委員會實施我們的年度的業務報告。我將針對當面、當前十一項國防重要的一個施政的規劃來做說明。其實大院新一屆的各位委員,如果了解當前我們國防重大的政策,並且支持各項國防式的推動,"},{"start":2328.703,"end":2343.469,"text":"我們現在要報告重要國防司政規劃第一在這個掌握安全情勢促進區域和平的一個面向但俄武戰爭從2022年爆發以後也對全球糧食跟能源供應造成了很大衝擊"},{"start":2344.77,"end":2368.197,"text":"在加以哈基於領土宗教的旗艦導致衝突不斷臺海情勢就是印太安全的重要指標今年中共在臺海周邊軍事活動也明顯增加臺海情勢也日益的嚴峻而印太區域存有數個潛在的一個軍事衝突的熱點包含北韓多次執行飛彈試射"},{"start":2369.918,"end":2396.516,"text":"以及中共在南海各島礁的一個軍事化的一個建設海警以水炮阻擋這個飛兵補給船進入仁愛礁凸顯南海情勢也相當不安中共為了要競逐全球霸權地位透過上海合作一個組織等機制深化各項合作另外中俄在東北亞常態實施聯合戰略一個"},{"start":2397.176,"end":2399.357,"text":"2023年底,美中舉行拜習會,達成恢復軍事溝通的決議,雙方透過對話來管理彼此競爭的關係"},{"start":2421.047,"end":2443.527,"text":"我國位處於地緣政治的關鍵的一個位置臺灣的安全會牽動印太地區乃至於全球的安定跟繁榮而臺海的安全情勢也被受到國際社會的關注我們國防部將積極跟理念相近的國家強化軍事安全領域的交流跟合作來捍衛我們區域安全和和平的穩定"},{"start":2444.528,"end":2468.256,"text":"第二在這個堅爭敵情動態．發揮早期預警方面．中共建軍的方向已經朝境外．已經朝境外而且全域作戰來轉型．火箭軍加速部署東風17等．各種的飛彈．另外陸軍他也一直在組建新型的原火部隊．海軍也加快了"},{"start":2468.996,"end":2469.136,"text":"在2023年當中"},{"start":2486.15,"end":2499.84,"text":"中國與俄國執行聯合軍演與戰略巡航,藉由實戰化演練,行作反介入與區域禁止的態勢,檢證其軍事整備與聯合作戰指揮效能。"},{"start":2503.542,"end":2516.96,"text":"中共針對國際政要訪台﹐美國對台軍售﹐還有推動《有我法案》等事件﹐就會衝升高對台威懾的力度﹐以無人機或空飄氣球等灰色地帶襲擾﹐"},{"start":2518.513,"end":2546.007,"text":"各種手段來增加我們海空兵力應對的負荷並且企圖模糊海峽中線的存在今年共軍為了要整合太空以及網路戰等領域的能力他積極的部署各種衛星那國軍依照我們威脅的及受害的程度會發佈警訊或者新聞稿去讓國人能夠同步的來掌握並且應處"},{"start":2548.009,"end":2572.168,"text":"國軍會執行加強聯合情建政策手段﹐發揮早期預警﹐掌握共軍對台軍事的動態﹐並且審慎地應對。第三﹐在陸地戰訓準備﹐建構可持戰力方面﹐因為共軍近期頻密地﹐對我進行多類型的灰色地帶飽和式洗澡﹐升高對台威懾的力度﹐"},{"start":2573.389,"end":2601.832,"text":"國軍利用聯合情監偵﹐達成早期預警﹐適切派遣我們的偵訓艦﹐戰機﹐跟防空飛彈的部隊﹐多重反制的手段﹐在海峽中線﹐跟我們防空識別區﹐應處共軍的襲擾。參考二無戰爭﹐所獲得的經驗﹐國軍以建構重層防禦的體系﹐來提升關鍵基礎設施的安全﹐達成我們戰略持久的一個目標。"},{"start":2603.681,"end":2629.356,"text":"為了強化我們國軍戰備訓練的一個目標依照共軍近年擾台的模式跟敵人可能的行動我們完成漢光40道演習的一個想定場景的一個設計規劃8天7夜來做攻防對抗的推演防衛作戰各階段的處置的程序達成連戰指揮跟全民總力的整合等訓練目標"},{"start":2630.757,"end":2649.608,"text":"為了要發揮國軍整體後勤資源的效能也會持續整合三軍裝備維修的一個資源能力整合飛彈、旋翼機等有大概290餘項的修能另外完成糧物、油料、彈藥等補給品的戰備存量調整來強化我們暫時運輸的偽裝及機動的作為來提升我們防衛作戰的韌性"},{"start":2658.473,"end":2685.026,"text":"國防部也為持續強化危機預警．然後組建可持的國防武力．來保衛國家安全在我們反制認知作戰．堅定軍民心防方面中共利用臺灣言論的自由環境．積極地運用三戰．也就是輿論、法律跟心理戰．來企圖裂解、分化國人．以達成他認知作戰的目的"},{"start":2685.666,"end":2712.655,"text":"分析中共認知作戰﹐包含了假、錯、訊息﹐跟爭議的訊息﹐並且結合統戰作為﹐跟軍事的威懾﹐企圖造成國人心理的紛擾﹐削弱軍民抗敵的意志﹐我們觀察中共在112年﹐運用官方的媒體﹐側翼的組織﹐還有在地的協力者﹐等這種渠道﹐傳播它軍事方面的恫嚇﹐詆毀國軍﹐等這些爭議的訊息﹐"},{"start":2715.646,"end":2730.981,"text":"另外也企圖製造臺灣社會內部的對立﹐動搖民眾的敘心﹐來達成他不再來奪臺的企圖﹐國軍平常運用預警的應處機制﹐全天候的來掌握敵情﹐跟與情﹐針對錯假的訊息﹐"},{"start":2733.684,"end":2761.637,"text":"迅速的澄清說明：而且本部協助來自拍錯假訊息的一個教學影片：並且研編國防通識教育：然後教材也會提供新兵跟教招人員來運用：同時透過我們親報漢森廣播電台以及舉光聯帝舉光原地等這些內容：多元的平台來提供民眾正確的軍事方面的訊息"},{"start":2762.694,"end":2781.233,"text":"另外,國防部也透過傳統媒體和新媒體來呈現我們國軍情緒經驗的實況,建立國人對我們國軍的信心,凝聚軍民的向心,強化全民國防教育的深度及廣度,來建構全民防衛的共識。"},{"start":2782.964,"end":2802.105,"text":"在第5提升支電戰力爭取作戰優勢方面因應敵情的威脅作戰形態的改變參考了各國發展以及科技的一個趨勢我們國軍也持續的透過強化指管系統等作為逐步的來提升整體通知電的戰力"},{"start":2804.306,"end":2821.832,"text":"國軍執管系統採取複式的配置並且建置多重的備援手段確保我們執管不會中斷另外也為了形成電子戰力加成一個效果然後國軍建置了各型的電子裝備形成區域電站的一個防護網"},{"start":2823.132,"end":2850.588,"text":"近年中共也不斷地運用境外的電腦﹐企圖竊取我們國軍重要的資訊﹐跟影響關鍵的一個系統﹐為了抵禦不同形態的網攻﹐設置國軍資安防護管理的系統﹐及聯合國家資安分享跟分析中心﹐來做跨部會的交流﹐提升我們網攻預警的運作﹐並且強化整體資安防護能量﹐"},{"start":2851.648,"end":2869.436,"text":"為了確保我們國軍通自電戰力的發展：以自訓跟委外訓練方式來提升我們人員技術能力：並且透過各項戰訓來驗證自電作戰的具體以及做法：然後爭取我們自電戰力的優勢："},{"start":2871.337,"end":2897.925,"text":"第6在積極兵力整建籌獲新式武器方面﹖我們面對中共犯台能力的目標﹖而且他的能力日趨晚輩﹖國軍也是以遠距、精準、機動跟無人化以及AI智慧的不對稱防衛韌性為兵力整建的目標建構多層次的防禦重生來應對中共威脅挑戰"},{"start":2899.105,"end":2919.932,"text":"為了要籌建所需要的武器裝備,在今年度基礎式投資預算獲付1,255億元,維持推動基建國造等重大計劃。另外,有新增案是重點在建構無人機載具跟強化分散式指管系統以及防護能量。"},{"start":2920.848,"end":2945.757,"text":"美國國會在2023財政年度的國防授權法納入要強化台灣任性法的專章。國會訪團與法案生效到目前已多次來台跟本部來溝通了解我方的需求並且透過立法的程序跟作為監督美國行政部門來落實執行。"},{"start":2946.897,"end":2963.984,"text":"國防部也會充分運用這個機會跟美方的行政部門達成深化雙邊合作安全的一個共識另外近來全球軍工業受到俄烏戰爭的影響國際的軍品產能普遍不足對此"},{"start":2965.805,"end":2981.545,"text":"美國國務院、國防部、國會也成立專案小組,優化對台軍售執行。本部也會持續與美方各單位密切合作,來儘速獲得所需要的武器裝備,提升我們國軍防衛的韌性。"},{"start":2984.008,"end":3009.533,"text":"第7在落實國防自主．帶動產業發展方面．公布前瞻未來作戰場景．跟科技的一個趨勢．結合國內的產學研各界．科技的能量．來推動國防先進科技研究．跟武器系統的研製．在去年112年度執行先進科技．總共有140個案．發展"},{"start":3012.233,"end":3012.833,"text":"國防科技的水準"},{"start":3028.559,"end":3037.504,"text":"建議無人機在今天的戰場上﹐發揮不對稱作戰的效益很大﹐規劃在今年到117年﹐會結合國內的產業供應鏈﹐加強產製無人機﹐來增強我們戰場兼征﹐以及敵情偵察的一個能力﹐"},{"start":3049.552,"end":3068.63,"text":"國機國造目前執行新式高校級的產制,到112年就去年已經累計交機27架,預定在115年之前會達成66架產制的目標。另外,國艦國造也持續推動潛艦等五型的"},{"start":3070.487,"end":3072.788,"text":"海空戰地提升計劃和產製的9型飛彈規劃在115年會全數完成"},{"start":3090.939,"end":3102.345,"text":"國防部持續督導中科院卻依計劃籌建各軍種所需要的武器裝備來提升我們國防自主能量同步強化我們國軍整體的戰力"},{"start":3104.312,"end":3133.572,"text":"第8在強化軍民整合堅持防衛任性方面為了精進全民國防相關作業職能跟提升我們協調合作的能力我們透過了合作作業來強化跨部會的一個整合其能完善全民防衛體制的一個建構在今年教育召集所原有的軍事專業的課程以外為了提升自救護舊的職能增加"},{"start":3134.492,"end":3152.824,"text":"民防協力的課程,同時也透過14天的教召訓額來持續提高訓練的質與量。另外,民安10號演習會在今年4月到7月之間來辦理,為提升地方政府平戰時面臨災搶救的應變能量,會新增潛勢區民眾配合來演練。"},{"start":3160.009,"end":3173.178,"text":"另外也第一次邀請災防金融跟資安等這些專家學者來參與觀察提供他們專業的建議另外萬安市七號演習也規劃在7月22到25號來舉辦"},{"start":3176.48,"end":3197.371,"text":"將由地方政府實施民眾的疏散避難,至重點在檢驗避難所的主動開放、災民收容救濟站開設等這些科目,願意會配合漢光的實兵演習。在今年童星山4號演習當中,協同縣、警、消跟民防的團隊會驗證全民防衛動員的演練,"},{"start":3200.313,"end":3203.415,"text":"致強40號演習,以民間的機車、車機、物質的報道率和演練為重點,藉驗證民力、物力動員能量,來強化我們全民防衛的認識。"},{"start":3216.161,"end":3236.454,"text":"第9在遲緩兵役整備提升國防戰力方面．我們已經回復徵集一年常備役的常備兵的現役．已經在去年12月9日公告．滿一年以後也就今年11月跟著今年的1月1號起．我們徵集94年之以後出生的一男．"},{"start":3237.996,"end":3254.177,"text":"1、2月份義南的大概有2100餘員已經分別在我們北、中、南、花東等地區入營已經完成一般的裝備營區的一個整建還有訓練用彈等這些要準備可以滿足徵集的需求"},{"start":3254.938,"end":3276.417,"text":"要從今年起訓練作為採取漸進方式來提升我們的強度跟深度入伍訓練一律調為8週增加快反的射擊戰傷救護健康管理等這些科目期末的建設則結合震撼教育在野外以三天兩夜作為連續的方法"},{"start":3277.898,"end":3278.118,"text":"邱國正報告"},{"start":3298.129,"end":3302.272,"text":"為了落實義南照顧跟增進他的權利﹐我們是義南在服役期間﹐可以支領地域加級﹐跟相關的情務加級﹐"},{"start":3326.532,"end":3347.771,"text":"針對申請談訊、休業、再學的意難,教育部跟內政部已經建立勾結比對、督管的做法,藉由定期的集合以及輔導,以週圓申請的機制。前期各項工作,國防部都要節點跟目標,再持續推動,來落實我們訓練的本務,建構可持的戰力。"},{"start":3351.815,"end":3372.707,"text":"在第10強化官兵職能打造專業國軍方面我講高素質的專業人力是建構我們堅持國防戰略的基礎國軍持續強化軍事教育跟鼓勵官兵終生學習然後培育未來優質的人力為提升我們國軍整體人力的素質"},{"start":3373.587,"end":3388.298,"text":"我們運用多元招募的管道來吸引優秀人才、投身軍旅,另外也透過入伍的訓練、基礎、進修、深造等教育,使幹部具備有管理的實務、專業的職能、戰略思維和國際視野。"},{"start":3392.381,"end":3406.937,"text":"支援役的官士兵也可以透過公語或全史來進修,實施學位、證照、專長的培訓,並且積極鼓勵官兵提升語文的能力來加強各種語言的鑑定。"},{"start":3408.699,"end":3423.57,"text":"113年我們會持續編列進修補助的預算3億元來培養專業人力提升我們官兵的本職學能為了要留用優質的官兵我們也會持續爭取增調各項服務的佳績"},{"start":3427.185,"end":3445.344,"text":"並且促使志願役的人力能夠長留久用並且藉由落實官兵的生活照顧增加官兵留營的意願還有運用輔導跟考核的機制來篩選選優秀人才進而提升我們國軍人力的素質"},{"start":3446.434,"end":3471.574,"text":"在第11自修國防法案完備國防法制方面我們為了強化部隊的紀律跟維護軍中的人權我們也推動部隊調查以及救濟程序法制化本部也凝聚了陸海空軍懲罰法修正的草案跟軍人權益事件處理法的草案等這兩個法案"},{"start":3472.856,"end":3487.035,"text":"上述兩個法案立法的目的其中陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案是為調整軍人懲罰室友跟這個種類並且明定行政調查的正當法律程序"},{"start":3488.236,"end":3509.442,"text":"軍人權益事件處理的草案．為讓軍人權益當受到不正當的侵害．所能獲得及時的救濟．陸海空軍懲罰法的修正草案．跟軍人權益事件處理的草案．在業警行政院已審查完備．並且送請大院來審議"},{"start":3510.842,"end":3532.505,"text":"最後報結語﹖我們堅持國防是我們國家安全的基礎﹖本部會持續掌握敵情動態來妥當應處﹖以前瞻來破壞各個國防施政﹖懇請各位委員先進﹖不吝指導﹖給予大力支持﹖所以這復建是去年的國防施政一個成效﹖請大家做參閱報告完畢"},{"start":3536.378,"end":3560.593,"text":"部長以外有沒有要補充的沒有的話我們就報告結束了部長請回我們現場徐曉新委員到場那還沒其他新到場委員沒有的話我就不補充介紹再次跟我們會裡面的委員報告第一個今天禮拜四總統府有軍談所以我們原例在12點的時候準"},{"start":3561.834,"end":3562.615,"text":"本會委員6加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點半"},{"start":3583.83,"end":3604.282,"text":"發言登記截止如果有臨時提案請於10點30分前提出我們11點左右是會議情況來進行處理首先第一位請羅美玲委員進行詢答謝謝主席有請邱部長邱部長請"},{"start":3613.891,"end":3640.363,"text":"委員好部長早安部長根據這個局管署的這個說明我們臺灣北部的這個麻疹的這個疫情正在擴大當中那根據局管署呢他所提出來他說這個麻疹的病例呢年齡他差不多他是介於這20歲到40歲而且呢有些社區還出現這個感染源不明的這病例為什麼今天會在這裡跟部長探討這個麻疹"},{"start":3643.004,"end":3648.486,"text":"疫情那是因為我們台灣在2014年的時候也曾經發生過離島部隊馬診的集體感染而且那時候整個追蹤的這個足跡是擴及到400人那對於這個傳染病的這個感染像COVID-19的時候我們也曾經發生過木林劍事件所以呢"},{"start":3665.911,"end":3681.539,"text":"軍隊是傳染病一個很高的一個警戒區那是因為我們國軍的人員密度高那接觸的人都來自於四面八方生活環境也是非常的緊密所以呢也就是說這部分我們軍中不能夠忽視所以今天要來跟我們部長來探討這個所謂這個"},{"start":3689.464,"end":3700.177,"text":"馬診在軍中可能造成的一些危機那疾管署有提到就是說感染的病例當中是介於20歲到40歲那請問部長軍中的年齡層介於20歲到40歲的這個比例高不高"},{"start":3706.121,"end":3706.621,"text":"這都是高危險群"},{"start":3723.058,"end":3748.853,"text":"陳委員講的我們軍中團隊的生活的確很容易對傳染病造成一個很大的傷害但我們國軍目前有兩個做法第一個依據疾管署一旦有人感染的話我們一定要按照程序疾管署規定該要通報該要醫療該要隔離按照程序第二個到目前為止各單位"},{"start":3749.895,"end":3774.531,"text":"因為前陣子的COVID-19普遍已經養成一個良好的生活習慣衛生等等我想一切的防治方法基本上不外乎就人員身體一個保健所以我們以前面有良好的基礎以後會延續這工作持續做下去到目前為止軍中還沒有被感染到但我們嚴正以待並不以持續認為不會有"},{"start":3776.492,"end":3781.236,"text":"所以部長您的意思就是說我們的防疫措施已經啟動了嗎?已經啟動因為機關署規定一有這個訊息以後國軍同步在做的"},{"start":3788.085,"end":3813.53,"text":"剛剛我有提到本席有提到就是說這感染的這個年齡層是在20到40歲剛剛部長也特別提到說我們軍裝20歲到40歲佔了很大的這個比例那最主要的原因是說40歲這樣因為我們在1976年的時候台灣曾經發生過一個大流行所以很多人都已經有自體免疫了所以是永久免疫那至於在20歲以下的呢因為他們曾經已經"},{"start":3815.83,"end":3838.777,"text":"這個已經注射過這個MMR的這個第二劑所以他們的防護力也是已經很強了現在就是20歲到40歲就算說他們已經接種過可是問題是這個防護力是逐年在減少那再加上我們軍中20歲到40歲佔了很大的比例所以部長這個部分有沒有說要來爭取就是說這個年齡層防護力低的這年齡層我們要讓他們來注射這個麻疹的疫苗"},{"start":3843.038,"end":3843.638,"text":"國防部長邱國正報告業務概況"},{"start":3862.549,"end":3876.073,"text":"所以另外打了以後免疫力也的確會逐年下降不過我們的軍人在進入軍中之前都會做檢測如果抗體比較低的或者沒有抗體的特別針對麻疹嗎對所以我們會特別針對麻疹所以我們就會請這些人要補打"},{"start":3879.714,"end":3881.196,"text":"對,因為我有看到機關署的這個報告裡面,他說針對這個防護力低的醫護人員,就會要求他們來補打"},{"start":3898.114,"end":3902.577,"text":"那當然我們對於這個軍中也是一樣因為過去我們也曾經2014年發生過這個所謂群聚的這個感染那COVID-19的這個木林劍的事件也不能夠忘記所以這當然這個對這個會傷及這個國軍的這個形象之外我想對於保家衛國的這個國軍我們也特別的而針對這部分的也給予他們更多的這個保障這部分可能就是要請部長請我們"},{"start":3928.591,"end":3947.417,"text":"國防部要特別留意身體健康對部隊來講是一個很重要的課題我們國軍除了平常正常訓練以外已有這種傳染病外面普遍會發生的,國軍一定同步來做而且更加嚴謹舉個例子,我們會有校招進來"},{"start":3950.678,"end":3965.778,"text":"我們在新冠肺炎的時候,我們是嚴正以待,該要把數量減少,該要距離加大,這我們都做一個防控的作為,這個東西以後我也是列為將重要工作推動之一,謝謝委員。"},{"start":3966.69,"end":3987.614,"text":"是那還有一點就是要跟大家提醒的就是說像根據這個WHO的他的建設資料就提到說像去年2023年全球的疫情是很明顯的就是上升像歐洲區歐洲區的漲幅居然是比前年的漲幅居然是62倍所以我們看到這個數據是非常的這個擔心當然因為台灣有個好處就是說我們的這個不管是因為感染"},{"start":3994.235,"end":4021.084,"text":"有這個防護能力或是打了疫苗有防護能力可是我們這個都高達百分之九十幾那可能歐洲地方可能這個防疫的觀念可能還沒有台灣來的進步因為台灣因為有過去的這個疫情的關係所以我們在這部分的話也許是比歐洲地方還要好可是呢還是不得不勝因為我們比較擔心的就是病毒的這個變異那過去呢也許你這個防護力夠可是像歐洲地方"},{"start":4021.804,"end":4045.855,"text":"像西太平洋區也都是一樣他們的這個感染力是非常的大非常的高那也許就是病毒會在過程當中變異那這個病的這個病毒會不會來到台灣那對我們的防護力呢是不是有很大的這個威脅這部分呢這是我們比較擔心的部分那也許是軍中人員密度非常的高我們都希望說國軍兄弟姐妹"},{"start":4046.135,"end":4048.596,"text":"政人改修委員提醒,事實上我想說任何一個工作推動,哪怕防疫也是包含在裡面"},{"start":4065.686,"end":4094.569,"text":"一方面累積經驗很重要有經驗以後固然對我們防衛工作會有幫助但還是著重在平常要持續不斷的要加以密切注意我們繼續在這一方面除了累積以往經驗對部隊經常做的要求以外我們也會固定一個編組做一個管控而且督防的一個作用我想任何一個訓練當中我們也會把這個列進去看你們有沒有做好防護的工作都把它列為平常督導的一個"},{"start":4097.271,"end":4117.971,"text":"這個部分真的是要麻煩我們的國軍來建立一個麻疹相關兵役的這個知識然後呢當我們的國軍兄弟姐妹在面臨這個時候呢可以說如何去應付尤其麻疹他跟這個感冒非常的類似所以這部分呢真的是要希望國軍真是要嚴正以待以上謝謝"},{"start":4119.853,"end":4145.734,"text":"謝謝劉明麗委員部長請回我們接下來進行詢問的委員是沈柏洋委員那有請邱部長部長請"},{"start":4156.145,"end":4178.195,"text":"総務委員好部長你好那我今天最主要是想要問這個關於灰色地帶作戰的一個因處那第一件事情就是說的確就是說我們在這個過往的一些文獻還有國防部的一些說法裡面不斷的提到這個灰色地帶作戰那這一次在業務報告裡面也看到就是說灰色地帶作戰為了因應"},{"start":4178.775,"end":4182.157,"text":"國防部提出灰色地帶作戰以來有沒有一個統計數字就是我們已經面臨了多少次的這種灰色地帶作戰"},{"start":4194.69,"end":4223.389,"text":"我跟委員報告,從有這個灰帶的問題以後,我們大概每天在戰報當中或者記錄當中都有這些記載。我跟委員報告,我們這個指揮中心它成立,裡面有各連參,針對敵情的,針對海上的、飛彈的,甚至於國內各部隊一個狀況掌握,這是我們本務工作之一。所以我們有這個數量,假如委員要知道的話,我們可以提供或者到委員那邊去當面做說明,這樣的話比較詳盡一點。"},{"start":4225.131,"end":4238.031,"text":"那我想知道的事情就是因為現在金門海域產生了一些衝突那我們當然也知道這個是下禮拜我們才會有一些更詳細的專報那這樣在部長的一個判斷裡面現在是不是一個灰色地帶作戰的一個情形呢"},{"start":4238.496,"end":4265.932,"text":"我覺得灰色地帶不光是地帶,包含事件也是如此,這也有灰色模擬兩可,像是中線的問題或近線之水域,對方可以講從來沒有契約或者的確有很多事情當初推動並沒有一個契約,並沒有想雙方來簽訂,但多年行之有年的默契,也可以把我們很多不必要發生而且"},{"start":4266.852,"end":4288.48,"text":"甚至於擦槍走火這些不可抗拒的問題把它給縮減我想這片面的做法它有它的講法但我們的作為不會變更持續保持監控對海型的一個資源相互協調交換情資這是我們本務工作會持續來做的"},{"start":4291.563,"end":4311.537,"text":"剛剛有提到破壞現狀這件事情就是說不管是禁止或者限制的這個水域又或者說他們對海峽中線的破壞那對於來講我們的譬如說我們有沒有這樣的一個準則認為說當他們單方面的破壞現狀的情形就已經認為它是一個灰色地帶作戰然後進而我們必須要有更多的應變措施"},{"start":4312.398,"end":4333.769,"text":"首跟委員簡單報告,我們國軍分成平時跟戰時的作為,平時裡面我們有分,有突發狀況、偶發事件的處理,跟一個危機處理,包含天然災害,平常我們怎麼應變。像這種灰色地帶,它介於平時跟戰時之間,所以我們一有這種狀況以後,我們會把它給記錄下來,當作一個狀況。"},{"start":4337.791,"end":4364.151,"text":"所以平常我們是依據國軍的突發狀況處事規定來做一個我們對部隊的一個要求應對這些狀況多了以後我們應對的方法也不但在經濟所以為什麼會有各種的兵推包含漢光包含我們各鑽區甚至於海空軍他們有他們的兵推就針對可能發生狀況來做演練我想這也就是我們應處灰色地帶"},{"start":4364.952,"end":4386.339,"text":"讓他避免發生衝突的作為很具體的作為謝謝部長那我知道這個所謂突發狀況的這個應變他的內容應該是世俗機密但是對於就是說有沒有一個更高的指導原則因為譬如說像我在這邊列的像在早期這個國軍資訊站的這個藥缸那我記得陸軍跟空軍後來也有提出相關的一些細則"},{"start":4387.039,"end":4388.919,"text":"陳文光委員講的像這些藥膏並不是機密但它裡面講的一個原理原則一個應屬的方法"},{"start":4409.944,"end":4435.589,"text":"事實上國軍為了要防止這些突發狀況避免它到最後擴大變一個全面性的一個衝突的話我們對各種狀況都只有設定設定以後但也是依據藥缸裡面它的原則來辦理我講最簡單一個我們為甚麼有這樣我們備戰不求戰我們應戰但不必戰它就是為了這個大原則"},{"start":4436.849,"end":4439.31,"text":"部長我之所以問這個藥缸很大的一個原因也是像剛剛提到的"},{"start":4454.955,"end":4478.861,"text":"譬如說這個部長有時候會提到譬如說我們這個是我們可能是我們不要我們要避戰這個或者說我們不要去主動的挑起戰爭我們不要挑釁但現在呢以中國在譬如說中南海的一個形式他們的作為因為他不斷的步步進逼所以有時候當我們提出這個所謂的避戰的態度的時候他反而會覺得非常的喜悅因為他會覺得說那我又可以再往前更進一步"},{"start":4479.421,"end":4501.856,"text":"我並不是說這是對或者錯的問題,而是說,如果我們有一個更高的指導原則,或者藥鋼等等之類的,讓我們知道說,譬如說我們今天在應處方面我們的組織形態是什麼,像我們剛剛講跟海巡它之間的協作這個是什麼,因為畢竟這個部長之前應該都有提到,海巡的事當然是海巡管嘛,那國防部有自己國防部必須要管轄的一個地方,但是,"},{"start":4502.276,"end":4517.509,"text":"像現在海巡已經面臨了這個法律戰跟輿論戰第一線的弟兄的法律框架已經被框架住了然後甚至害怕被起訴然後因為這樣士氣低落然後不敢提出任何的要求也因此海巡現在執法的能量已經掉下來"},{"start":4518.169,"end":4537.369,"text":"那在掉下來的一個狀況之下本來海巡跟這個海軍他本來是有一個分界什麼時候是海巡做什麼時候是海軍做但如果今天在我們的藥缸裡面有沒有把這件事情納入到考量就是當海巡的能量已經掉下來了海巡已經被限制住了那這時候國軍有沒有相對應不同的行動出現"},{"start":4538.01,"end":4554.947,"text":"我跟委員報告,剛剛委員講的沒有錯,我們就怕人家誤會,我們硬戰不必戰,跟我們避免戰爭是兩回事。所以我們為什麼國防部一開始就有動作,把第一級的要件改過來,改得更明確。"},{"start":4555.948,"end":4576.442,"text":"因為以往認為第一集一定是對方開炮開槍了,我們才有第一集,我們已經早就改了,所以第一集的界定,它只要有一個實體,不管是航空或者海航一個實體,預約的規矩了,我們這第一集是一樣的,就把它當作我們一個反制,不是我們主動挑起的。"},{"start":4577.582,"end":4596.07,"text":"中共會講說你們既然在避免,得勝盡死,我們也在看。我一再強調,以步步進逼,我們到最後,這所謂的第一級,我不是第一級我發起的。我們為了要避戰,避免戰爭,但是我們已經避免不了了,我一定要應戰。"},{"start":4597.73,"end":4621.668,"text":"這個沒有問題就是說對於這一個部長這樣的一個態度那當然是我們在遵守國際法遵守這個各式各樣的規定之下武裝衝突法我們必須要遵守所以我們不要去開出這個第一槍但現在呢因為中國這個步步進兵跟灰色地帶我們作為以後的一個預判現在還沒有發生假設他進兵已經到24海浬已經到12海浬但他又沒有進來他又偏偏在旁邊不斷的這個巡航"},{"start":4623.209,"end":4624.649,"text":"謝謝沈博洋委員部長請回接下來進行詢答的委員是徐巧欣委員"},{"start":4666.351,"end":4666.691,"text":"區委員好"},{"start":4682.833,"end":4702.714,"text":"首先我剛聽您的這個業務報告我們先從漢光演習開始跟您來詢問過去漢光演習是五天四夜但是呢現在變成是要到八天七夜我們想要請問具體的原因是因為要因應目前兩岸的兵兇戰爲還是呢我們對未來的賴總統面臨的兩岸情勢是沒有信心的"},{"start":4703.732,"end":4726.321,"text":"我跟委員報告,看來有些時間長短,跟內容的科目界定,一定有原因,第一個考量敵情,敵情變化了,我們當然要做一個應對,而且累積一往經驗所以我們感受到敵情最近是有變化是嗎?一直在變化沒有,但過去都是五天四夜,我們這次轉八天七夜,一定是有很巨大的變化,那這個變化具體在哪個地方?"},{"start":4726.741,"end":4728.582,"text":"我目前希望更加詳細跟更加整密的部分具體來說是哪一個部分"},{"start":4745.691,"end":4763.396,"text":"我覺得剛才講到這些灰色地帶的處理還有更加具體假設友軍一旦面臨到什麼狀況以後我們如何來協助應對這以前有規定但我們已經把它納入狀況處置裡面為了要印證可行不可行所以通通列在這個課題裡面"},{"start":4764.236,"end":4785.325,"text":"了解,所以下一個我要問說過去呢去年漢光演習是由美軍觀摩的那今年漢光演習也會有美軍觀摩團嗎另外就是說呢去年就有傳出說以前是觀摩未來可能改成直接參與所以今年我們所掌握到的漢光演習我們有美軍的觀摩團或者他們會直接參與"},{"start":4786.448,"end":4813.664,"text":"我跟委員報告這所謂觀摩是我們兩邊交流訓練軍事交流的要項之一事實上我們國家為什麼跟美方會有這種那麼近的因為很多武器裝備甚至以往的建軍什麼過程都參考美軍事實上其他各國我們也在參考但因為長久以來跟他關係一直很密切所以我們就經常在平常除了漢光以外漢光一定會請他來"},{"start":4815.145,"end":4843.425,"text":"請他來跟我們做他所謂觀摩或者跟我們看哪些需要強化那今年的觀摩他們實質上的參與程度會比去年還要來得更高嗎?不會就在每一年都會派這個觀察團隊來了解喔那第二個主題呢想要跟您討論的是很遺憾的事情我相信部長也很不願意看到就是說最近近期喔軍人有不斷發生輕生的事件部長請問您有掌握過去10天內有多少起的軍人輕生死亡的案件嗎?"},{"start":4843.925,"end":4859.641,"text":"我跟委員報告,發生這個制裁自殺的事情,這是很大的遺憾,不管對他個人,對家庭,整個部隊,對團體灼傷。最近十天你們有掌握了多少軍人?我打算有五件,所以今天早上我還"},{"start":4861.423,"end":4867.186,"text":"每次這種事情除了表達遺憾,我們繼續分析,不會去做一個定論,分析一定要從他的身心,從部隊的管教,從他有沒有債務問題,感情問題,多方面去做一個分量"},{"start":4881.715,"end":4881.995,"text":"各位有沒有數據?"},{"start":4901.718,"end":4906.184,"text":"請說明就是去年跟前年你們應該都應該要好好的統計我跟委員報告我們數據有但是數據我們剛剛講了一有了以後絕對從各方面去做"},{"start":4916.578,"end":4916.698,"text":"第二張圖"},{"start":4940.303,"end":4960.403,"text":"連續做軍械的三天三夜都沒有睡都在打靶一直歇涼當然這個我先幫國防部說明你們是否認的可是我問一下這個該員有沒有負責軍械的部分有還有他有沒有BMI超標的情況應該也是有的那既然都有為什麼是直接否定我們什麼時候會完整徹查"},{"start":4961.246,"end":4961.747,"text":"說明一下好不好"},{"start":4976.135,"end":4976.435,"text":"國防部長邱國正報告"},{"start":5000.842,"end":5009.905,"text":"好這個是非常有趣就是我們跟你們要的報表都是非常的漂亮但我們實際也去問了很多戰過憲兵的那他們都說其實沒有這麼好所以我們的這個初期的統計表跟實際上面面臨到軍人他們的情況我覺得都還要再去做調查但我另外一個更有興趣去詢問的是我們211營的這個軍社"},{"start":5023.069,"end":5047.271,"text":"他們休息的地方我們可以看到其實呢這幾年來有國防部的新安專案總經費是1126億元但是我們看到211營的部分呢是97年到現在已經16年沒有整修了我們看到蔡總統經常在新安專案這邊剪裁那邊剪裁怎麼會我們照顧官兵的老半天結果自己門口站著的沒有照顧好呢"},{"start":5047.91,"end":5049.812,"text":"那我們要問的是211左邊的這個什麼時候才要再重新的大幅的修整"},{"start":5065.966,"end":5090.734,"text":"這幾年都只是簡單整修而已都沒有做大規模的這個修整或是改建什麼時候211我們就在總統府門口站的也不換房的最辛苦的我們什麼時候要給他提升相關的居住的社會我跟委員報告一下這個西安專案是這樣子有一些是新建有整建但整建他有分一個一個一個看這個狀況吧他如果在裡面狀況都還可以可能裡面要做一些強化下去的擺設"},{"start":5092.415,"end":5092.555,"text":"請說明一下"},{"start":5114.183,"end":5137.214,"text":"我跟委員報告我們有規劃但是他就不見得講說變成單獨一個房間但是你們就講什麼時候規劃整修什麼時候會完成這個你們一定有相關的進度可以說明啊委員你好我是連市次長跟您報告一下2110他們97年到現在他路上的建築物還沒有到這個法定他要這個心安的階段"},{"start":5137.814,"end":5152.664,"text":"第二階段是我們每一年當然您現在問我的話我是沒有辦法馬上給您說我們每一年都有投資相關的預算在實施銀色的一些改善相信2110是有的那會後之後我會提供你們不能齁這個我特別跟你講不能我今天問你一個問題這個2110都已經出這麼嚴重的事情我們在思考的是整個2110他們憲兵的相關權益然後來到這個地方的時候我們問這麼基本的這個問題你都說要回去再看看然後時間不確定"},{"start":5167.874,"end":5185.382,"text":"這就代表你們今天沒有做好準備過來所以會後麻煩提供給我們詳細的資訊也希望未來在質詢的時候你們是能夠把議題都能夠準備好的我不希望再發現問這麼單純的沒有涉及政治性的跟軍官權益有關的事情我們都說要再回去查查看好嗎"},{"start":5185.962,"end":5186.642,"text":"我們只問說211營的整建規劃在什麼時候,這並不是一個很難的問題吧?"},{"start":5206.169,"end":5221.685,"text":"所以也代表你們對整個新安裝案的這個進度跟整件的時間表並不是這麼的瞭解?我剛剛連市長有講新安裝案它有一個標準的多少年限或者多久沒有翻修把它列進去像是一般它時序平常都在強化的"},{"start":5222.365,"end":5244.178,"text":"我跟您說部長跟您報告你們每年針對2110的強化的整修的部分的經費運用都非常少都是很基礎很基礎的維修而已整個大幅度的改善我們既然都有了新安專我們還是希望在總統府門口站的這些弟兄我們可以給他比較好的生活品質往這方面去規劃我跟委員報告我剛在總統府左邊"},{"start":5244.918,"end":5245.299,"text":"謝謝許曉欣委員,謝謝部長"},{"start":5260.333,"end":5276.037,"text":"那這個相關單位也請向相關委員提出詳細報告那如果我們在詢答前需要仔細的回答的話其實國防部事務相當多可以要求他們先準備好好謝謝徐委員接下來進行詢答的委員是馬文君委員謝謝主席麻煩請部長來部長請"},{"start":5297.833,"end":5307.316,"text":"法院好部長好部長剛剛因為聽到徐委員有提到就是說我們有一些官社的部分那需要加強在這裡我也要建議有很多的官校其實官校是培養我們軍事人才的一個地方我最近接到有一些訊息就是他們說回到官校去參加一些活動的時候發現到包括有很多的門還有很多的"},{"start":5326.26,"end":5329.122,"text":"這部分我們請國防部要特別重視而且去了解一下如果有必要因為我們跟很多的大專院校跟很多的學校沒有辦法相比我們就沒有辦法招到好的人才這個部分在這裡特別提出來那在這裡要特別請教部長"},{"start":5354.242,"end":5365.574,"text":"就去年漢光演習的時候我們的實兵操演過去我們都是反登陸操演大概集結三軍兵火力我們演示的都是貪案間敵讓敵人上不來可是我們現在安排的是兩軍在貪案對峙攻防"},{"start":5373.081,"end":5389.359,"text":"這可以顯示國軍的防衛作戰的重點他已經從貪案間敵向國土防衛這樣子來做一些調整那甚至在民間大家的感受甚至我們未來很可能已經要打城鎮戰"},{"start":5390.7,"end":5399.306,"text":"這個也是造成很多的人心惶惶的部分因為最近也有一些資訊顯示有很多有能力有條件財務狀況許可的人其實已經把15歲以下的孩子往國外送"},{"start":5405.951,"end":5432.683,"text":"那都顯示大家對於我們現在的整個區域安全或者現在的地緣政治是充滿疑慮那再加上現在兩岸的關係不管是在民間也好或者像幾次的事件也好我想也都會衝擊到像這樣子國人的一些認知那就這個部分因為我們也看到共軍其實在"},{"start":5434.184,"end":5452.572,"text":"不要說更長的時間近10年不管他是在基建的數量性能還有武器裝備他的推展跟他的進步其實全世界都是看得到也相信那就我們剛剛提到的現況包括我們海峽中線已經失去這樣子的一個大家的默契以後我們"},{"start":5461.536,"end":5477.607,"text":"除了國軍每次都跟我們說因為我們每次的業務報告大概從過去在他們以前沒有這麼進步的情況之下也都是我們會透過情監偵的相關的這樣的一個手段會去做最好的一個防禦跟預警"},{"start":5479.488,"end":5483.309,"text":"可是在現在他們有很多場主的進步的時候我們的說法還是這樣那國防部有這樣的應處的作為我想要請教部長我們民間我們一般民眾應該要有什麼樣的警覺或心態因為我們在選前曾經發布一次國家級的一個警報"},{"start":5499.873,"end":5500.013,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5517.355,"end":5535.412,"text":"那不是更緊張嗎?所以他到底該不該發,或者我們隨時面對這樣的情況的時候,我們應該,民眾應該有什麼樣的準備?這個部分是不是可以請部長跟我們說明一下?我跟委員報告三個問題,剛剛委員提到,第一個有關一個投資的,逐年投資營區修繕的,這我們會強化。"},{"start":5538.755,"end":5539.035,"text":"邱國正報告業務概況．"},{"start":5554.384,"end":5568.331,"text":"國土防衛行大家變成哎呀現在有沒有打好像城鎮戰我跟委員報告早期漢光演習一開頭到現在沒有變大原則拒敵彼岸堅敵海上空氣然後毀敵泰岸然後集敵於陣地前"},{"start":5571.633,"end":5586.652,"text":"因為以前推到貪案以後沒有往下推的原因在哪裡,因為在那個地方是決勝點,有機會可以殲滅,但後來要推幾年以後人家不就講了嗎,哎喲你們只打到貪案,貪案完了就不打了,就投降了。"},{"start":5588.112,"end":5616.732,"text":"我跟委員報告,國軍沒有這種概念,打哪就不打了。所以我們一上任由我們講奉陪到底。那現在為什麼要強化城鎮作戰?就代表我們前面遠距、精準、堅敵海上這些狀況都已經過了。所以我爭當說一兵一卒,那不就到城鎮了嗎?並沒有想到要把戰爭帶進來。我們能夠抵擋在外面,源頭制止,最好具體彼岸,還沒出來打掉。"},{"start":5617.392,"end":5643.365,"text":"但我們有這個能力大家很清楚嘛剛剛我也講了他們今年來不斷的強化但我們要做一個最壞的打算要做最好準備這就是一個最好準備的一環那準備這樣子外面很多爭議訊息就講了哎呀是不是前面就不打了打到城鎮來他要出國我沒意見我竟然跟同仁講說我國軍做的經常發布新聞稿以前大家請國民放心我要這一塊拿掉了"},{"start":5644.105,"end":5656.943,"text":"我們放心不放心我們意見但我要讓國軍放心部長除了國軍放心以外我們也在乎的是民眾也要放心我們相信國防部有做準備可是我們現在因為過去大家都認為我們的灘難"},{"start":5659.406,"end":5665.51,"text":"在決戰的時候就可以把敵人殲滅當然那時候一直是這樣子的一個概念我們當然也不是要投降可是現在如果民間有這樣子的一個舉措的時候其實顯示到民心在浮動當然第一優先是要兩岸和平這是全世界包括我相信其他國家也不希望我們這裡有什麼樣的一個戰端"},{"start":5684.102,"end":5701.579,"text":"那這是最好的一個狀況這也要看國家領導人的智慧跟能力那如果在不得已的情況之下會有什麼樣的演變應該要讓國人清楚的知道我們必須要做什麼樣的準備不是只有前線的國軍做準備如果真的要打到城鎮戰我們的人民應該要做什麼他們應該要做什麼樣的準備就像你在天災發生的時候不能像"},{"start":5709.466,"end":5709.766,"text":"我跟委員報告兩點很簡單"},{"start":5737.235,"end":5758.549,"text":"軍事是政治的延長,很多問題,政治問題,政治方面被擺平了,沒有軍事的問題。我們也不期望,陳文剛委員也講,任何人沒有人期望打仗,軍人也一樣,但軍人他不願意,但他因為責任所在,一旦有狀況,他非要抵死,去抗拒不可。這是我們的一個基本概念,第一個。"},{"start":5759.369,"end":5759.569,"text":"國防部長邱國正報告"},{"start":5776.682,"end":5789.206,"text":"部長講的這麼詳細那個部分我們可能事後再討論可是還有一個重點不好意思向召委請求一些時間因為國防部今天業務報告我們還是希望大家因為現在大家都非常重視另外就是一個邊線筆的問題現在因為這近5年來我們看到每次的業務報告都可以看到我們的邊線筆除了111年他的邊線筆招募是88沒有達標以外其餘的"},{"start":5805.672,"end":5805.812,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5825.265,"end":5847.959,"text":"理由或者給本席的理由是因為邊境邊線比太低那到底哪一個才是對的一定有一個說謊嗎我們的業務報告做假的這些數據資料或者他也許是真的可是他有兩個情況第一就是你的目標定的很低所以你高達百分之一百多的招募的一個成效成效卓著"},{"start":5848.399,"end":5862.22,"text":"第二就是事實上我們的訓練並不足你只能定這樣的標準可是事實上我們的邊線比還是嚴重的不足因為最近我們有看到我們的那個新的一個名詞叫做平均邊線比"},{"start":5863.542,"end":5867.666,"text":"我想很簡單的一個問題就是F16V我們已經在5年前那個美國同意賣給我們的時候就已經5年的時間那這5年我們到底招募了多少合格的飛行員就F16V因為你說平均邊線比這是不合理的你今天飛慢速戰鬥機的可以飛F16V嗎"},{"start":5886.286,"end":5886.546,"text":"我跟委員借一分鐘"},{"start":5909.327,"end":5924.12,"text":"剛剛委員提了兩個問題,第一個邊線筆是問題,並沒有明文規定邊線筆差別的話不能夠掉,但這個單位他一定是吧,邊線筆很低,你要到別單位去,到別單位可能做植物跟在這邊一樣的,他當不允許他走。"},{"start":5924.781,"end":5943.432,"text":"他不是講說要加入了,我邊境比例不夠,你不要來,不是這樣的,這可能在傳達當中有誤會,經常我也問陸軍,陸軍他左眼講因為我邊境比例很低,所以你不要這個時候走,他這個是一個委婉的勸說,他如果硬要有家庭困難,一樣可以答應他,這是第一個。"},{"start":5944.412,"end":5947.696,"text":"建軍備戰長久工作,在要採購之前,雖然要等到裝備到才能成軍,但前面的步調沒有停。"},{"start":5962.594,"end":5985.414,"text":"因為他有配套他設施是有地方擺他人員是能夠同步的裝備一來就能夠去操作是在同步在做當中所以邊境比尤其空軍我們也很擔憂萬一飛行員不夠但目前為止我跟委員報告我們座艙比大概都還不錯一般譬如說好像國際上會計大概1.4我們大概也1.4以上了"},{"start":5985.734,"end":5988.915,"text":"可以打到你座窗邊謝謝部長用任何手段我們去留下優秀的國軍人才我們都支持我們也贊成可是有很多現在已經發生的問題不是用說明或找一些來解釋而是它真正發生的原因要去改善比如說像陸軍參謀長他要升參謀長的時候也許他的位置那裡邊線比也是不足可是他還是升了參謀長"},{"start":6012.426,"end":6022.889,"text":"不能說上位的他可以調整而在基層的軍事官兵他沒有這個機會這個部分我們請部長去認真做考量好不好我們處理確定的事情委員真的我們沒有講要咬那麼緊比如講他能動這個不能動沒有這樣子因為看這個職缺嘛可能當中有點誤會而且剛剛講的邊線低壓幹嘛這普遍的問題我們絕對從源頭來探討"},{"start":6041.075,"end":6056.58,"text":"不過講說挖東牆補西牆所以剛才委員特別提醒我們不要眼前問題以未來方案來補我早就講這句話一個泥岸歸泥岸那未來你不是講等到泥岸完成了我補現在狀況那不行的"},{"start":6057,"end":6060.783,"text":"我們要很具體好不好我絕對順道委員對您聽到的可能是下面對你的說明可是我們還是讓我講一句話這個部分因為我們本席就是接到太多他不是單一所以就這個部分我們再去把它考量清楚好不好這個部分我們會提出來一定有他"},{"start":6080.678,"end":6102.657,"text":"一定有相當的數據資料,謝謝馬部長請回,那這個題目我們他日也許可以專報來處理,不只邊縣比,其實還有妥善率那來,部長請坐,那邊縣比各軍種各兵科其實是分別看待可能會比較精準一點好,我們謝謝前面的詢答,接下來進行詢答是陳永康委員"},{"start":6113.12,"end":6113.64,"text":"邱國正報告業務概況．並備質詢。．"},{"start":6143.004,"end":6168.716,"text":"對於國防部的政策從國家安全的角度本席是全力支持尤其是剛剛強調堅實的國防是國防安全的基石但是人才的培養是一切的源頭是重中之重所以特別就人才培養過程中間提供一些建言"},{"start":6170.014,"end":6197.802,"text":"那我們在國家安全戰略下面的軍事教育的建設當然我們以剛才部長講的你有目標你有方法有手段這個過程就不去細數那麼建議的具體作為中間我提兩個建議第一個就是現在在政府的論證中間有些遇到不預期的狀況往往引用一句話這個SOP要調整"},{"start":6198.752,"end":6209.203,"text":"Standard operation procedure基本上是行政作業流程的一個標準規範那它不是一個動態的應變作為那麼美國把2018年的這個武裝衝突法"},{"start":6221.298,"end":6240.094,"text":"在2013年修正完畢了總共有1224頁這個可以提供部裡做參考因為這個裡面引述了一個非常重要的就不是去談在軍事作為上不談SOP而是談ROE"},{"start":6241.721,"end":6241.901,"text":"規定規定"},{"start":6262.927,"end":6263.067,"text":"國防部長邱國正報告"},{"start":6279.6,"end":6304.652,"text":"一千馬平行可不可以去切船頭這都要有授權那最後才就是所謂的交戰規定我們建議把這個ROE啊能夠納入我們的戰備規定同時要經由這個法治經軍法的討論那麼把它納入教學課程那麼因為在這個情況下我們的官兵在第一線的情況下"},{"start":6306.069,"end":6324.121,"text":"他第一個承擔責任第二個他的上一級要要授權而不能啊回頭逐機請示就像當年這個私語啊一個小型無人機過來那麼回報小金門大金門啊一路這個過程我想部長非常了解那麼這個是給我們一個過去的經驗就是"},{"start":6326.863,"end":6327.023,"text":"人才培養"},{"start":6347.834,"end":6359.903,"text":"因為我們如果把國防教育底下這個所有的學校加起來三軍官校國防大學下的陸海空軍指揮參謀學院戰爭學院"},{"start":6362.438,"end":6389.193,"text":"國防理工學院政戰學院管理學院那麼外加國防醫學院空軍航跡學校陸軍專科學校我們還有唯一的一所高中中正育校我們總人數加起來有13593人那麼我們對這個國立大學就是最少的人就是國立海洋大學那麼"},{"start":6391.206,"end":6391.346,"text":"海洋大學"},{"start":6412.425,"end":6434.269,"text":"關鍵在於我們國防大學所屬的有分了9個校區所以你很多的經費是投資在這個作為上面維持成本那麼如果以人均預算這個國軍軍事院校我們平均攤在身上就是每個人188這是千座單位"},{"start":6437.227,"end":6437.247,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":6454.746,"end":6477.902,"text":"蔣偉林部長替國防醫學院爭取卓越教學的經費也就是說這個額度我們想我們同步做一方面建議國防部向教育部另外我們也可以在教育委員會提出這個需求因為所謂的人才培養的經費並不止於攤在學生身上的投資因為包括你要有好的老師"},{"start":6479.727,"end":6480.588,"text":"各位先看這張圖是一張衛星照片"},{"start":6501.02,"end":6526.843,"text":"在軍中常常講我們運用聯合情監偵的諸般手段來掌握狀況的發展這個我們在過去長年以來也就是用這個方式表達肯定但是因為現在動態的情勢變化太快所以用單一的圖像你看衛星圖沒有經緯度坐標那我們用GIS校正套疊下一張圖各位看"},{"start":6527.95,"end":6551.768,"text":"退回去這張圖就是民航局他的臺北飛航情報區航區圖這裡面包括了訓練的空域海峽中線所以你看到的就不只是衛星圖那有民航圖再下一張這個是我們陸軍所用的UTM坐標圖全台灣包括外離島一共90張再下一張"},{"start":6555.114,"end":6582.311,"text":"那麼我們再套疊海圖所以你所謂的運用聯合情監偵諸般手段那麼這是一個手段但是你缺乏一個共同平台那麼我舉例請把圖再反推回去這個是看最近啊就是我們國防部報導每天都有共機啊侵擾或者放氣球那這個圖已經套了4成了"},{"start":6583.722,"end":6597.234,"text":"關鍵在於陸軍的UTM坐標圖是五萬分之一他是紙圖那麼未來我們會獲得美軍供售非常先進的武器系統比如說M142海馬斯"},{"start":6598.956,"end":6626.55,"text":"它的射程從30公里、70公里甚至到300公里在這個圖上是沒有辦法運用的尤其是現在跨區作戰我們還在用紙圖做連結那麼海圖通常是50萬分之一、100萬分之一空軍的航圖甚至涵蓋範圍更大到200萬分之一所以因為不同的比例要經過GIS校正然後用這個科技的方法把它套疊"},{"start":6627.89,"end":6655.509,"text":"將來一切的作戰圖像要數位化那這樣子就可以對應這個動態的情勢做出客觀的判斷目前所謂的C4IS是不同的時間不同的目標不同的位置不同的動向不同的意圖但是透過共同圖像可以讓我們的指揮官做一個更客觀的判斷以上這幾個建議提供部長"},{"start":6656.469,"end":6670.836,"text":"參考,請問部長有沒有要回應的?沒有,我很感謝委員,委員講的問題都很深入,畢竟也是在以前在國防單位服務很長年的,而且雖然以往這個工作,態度各方面,我真的個人是很敬佩,但剛剛委員您講的這個,"},{"start":6672.017,"end":6698.601,"text":"我不管是ROE列入將來的行動程序的確因為環境變化狀況不同也的確要同步來調整不能咬到SOP就不變我就拿上一回金門的事情來講因為無人機飛越他們還做出動作來我還要我來扛因為事實上我不把責任推掉因為以前國防部有規定到領空上面該要打掉打掉了"},{"start":6699.201,"end":6716.83,"text":"但是我不怪部隊,因為長久沒有給他叮嚀,沒有納入這個演練的話,他還真的按照一樣要回報,等到你回報完了,決心下達了,狀況過了。這的確是很嚴重的問題。所以我現在無目的地在做了,把各種狀況處理以後,做一個規劃。"},{"start":6717.89,"end":6744.821,"text":"有一點像是ROE,先講好了,我不給你壓力,當然你不要扛這個責任,責任我們來扛,但之前要把它嚴明,要把責任畫得很清楚。第一個,人力、人才就是經費,當然有很多比較方法,人員尤其設施,軍中有很多不足的地方,剛剛委員有講到,哪怕有設施老舊也還沒有辦法強化,我們會做一個通盤檢討,再次跟委員做一個單獨的報告。"},{"start":6746.381,"end":6763.511,"text":"因為聯合組戰圖像是我們一向來主張一定要共同,假如沒有共同性的話,到了指揮掌握,你看指引的目標可能不一樣,所以這我們也要持續來強化,很感謝委員給我們做的指導,我們後面持續來推動,向委員做回報。"},{"start":6764.151,"end":6764.611,"text":"邱國正報告業務概況．"},{"start":6797.698,"end":6821.152,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩邱部長請邱部長召委好謝謝部長辛苦了我們在這個委員會這麼長久的時間我花幾秒鐘我謝謝剛才陳永康委員他下午還說受教就尋答都為了國家好"},{"start":6822.13,"end":6829.249,"text":"我們在這裡質詢官員不是為了讓誰難看甚至於像徵訊犯人一樣不是"},{"start":6830.151,"end":6853.966,"text":"我們就算不同黨派都是希望為了國家好所以該講那個聯合圖像的事情其實是很重要的武器越先進精準度越高入海空潛艦部隊你要打擊同一個目標說出來的那個誤差值差別如果大的話當然就會失去精準所以那是一個重要的非常重要的議題那我們也非常謝謝陳委員來到委員會所帶來的新氣象"},{"start":6856.687,"end":6882.924,"text":"我們今天也聽到了談到這個邊線筆我還提了妥善率我自己從六聯隊退下來P3C跟E2P3跟E2那個參謀長先不用上來坦白講這兩個飛機對台灣很重要但是妥善率到底如何我覺得參謀長要好好掌握不只戰機整個戰力他不是只有我們看得到的F16"},{"start":6884.793,"end":6896.208,"text":"一般人沒有注意到的我常講像海軍陸軍陸軍在地上走海軍出海好幾天看不到的其實也很辛苦整體的戰力很重要反潛的"},{"start":6898.614,"end":6917.249,"text":"預警的他提供的C4ISR的平台的整合才有最前線官兵第一線看起來很刺激很炫麗的東西這個都很重要所以這些妥善率我覺得我們這個會期可以花點時間來看看各軍種那有的可能是經費問題我們常常投入大量的錢"},{"start":6918.45,"end":6932.679,"text":"在採購先進武器卻疏忽了比方說陸軍一個單兵各兵一個步槍兵他需要的各裝錢不大但是效用很重要或者是妥善率的提升那個要作為費的"},{"start":6934.38,"end":6955.335,"text":"我那麼多裝備進來之後裝備就算不用錢還是要作業維持費所以這些部分我覺得我們在委員會裡面可以就這些他也許聽起來沒那麼炫麗沒那麼華麗沒有那麼新聞性但他卻是我們整體國防力量扎實的事情所以這個一開始提這個我來問幾個我們現在進行的議題第一個"},{"start":6961.049,"end":6988.597,"text":"這個總統改選其實是三軍統帥對我們國防部來講就是三軍統帥我是請教部長因為在2月19號已經責成蕭美琴副總統當選人來做所謂的交接小組的召集人那交接大家看到了以為是總統府的交接而已其實我個人認為在安全事項的交接其實比國之喜那一顆印章還重要因為那個是重責大任"},{"start":6990.438,"end":7006.734,"text":"部長如果不方便講的我可以尊重目前是不是已經啟動了對下任三軍統帥的交接的彙報那又要無縫接軌縱使是同一個黨繼續執政這個交接蠻重要的部長目前有沒有這相關的作業進度"},{"start":7007.495,"end":7031.578,"text":"我跟委員報告,因為我在軍中服務蠻久的,幾任統賽有跟諜,我們都有經歷過。我的印象就是說,有新任統賽要來之前,通常國防部會做一個很簡單的報告。但我後來跟他們講,你們做好準備,但我沒有積極去問,哪一天來,什麼時候來,沒有邀約,因為我也擔憂會造成誤會,好像我要把人拉過來幹什麼。"},{"start":7032.739,"end":7054.035,"text":"邱部長不是一個求官的人,你很認真在做,有些事情就是一件事,山軍統帥要進入狀況,山洞的狀況,整體的狀況,我的意思是說我們現在國防部有備變了是不是?我們也做好準備,怎麼樣讓新任統帥了解,最短時間了解一般國軍整體的概況。開始進行相關的匯報了沒?"},{"start":7057.544,"end":7075.972,"text":"我跟委員報告一下,我們通常講說像今天下午做一個定期匯報有參與人員他會調,在這種當中對研究的依舊接觸,但不便講得很清楚但是我覺得我們國軍能夠做準備已經在準備當中,那現在要獲得哪邊要強化"},{"start":7076.932,"end":7078.094,"text":"因為現在在進行相關的會議、軍談等等"},{"start":7092.715,"end":7115.207,"text":"他其實也是另外一種形式的匯報這個我是覺得如果無縫接軌這樣是最順的部長我請教一下我們目前跟美方的安全議題上我把它抓了三個題目一個是我們到美國授訓從我們空軍去亞利桑那陸客到貨商或者早期的海軍陸戰隊會有一個排級單位到夏威夷這都公開資訊"},{"start":7116.648,"end":7138.206,"text":"目前我們已經有兩個聯兵營到美國受訓一個是到密西根的聯訓中心甚至於還參加了北方打擊的一個聯合的軍演另外夏威夷專案是陸軍裝甲五四兩旅這個是大概跟M1A2有關係也到美國受訓了目前訓練的狀況有沒有掌握"},{"start":7138.846,"end":7153.371,"text":"我跟委員報告,這都是一個雙方情報或者訓練交流的一環,委員會掌握跟報章登的,大家都知道實況目前有關陸軍準備概況,我請陸軍參謀長簡單說明我們現在是全建制過去授訓嗎?"},{"start":7159.333,"end":7181.236,"text":"跟委員報告你不變講就直接講不變講因為聽到兩國的默契我可以尊重這邊不方便去透露OK好那我接下來不變講的話請各位就主動提我覺得我們還是在一個原則在這裡質詢的跟被質詢的只有一個目標讓國家更好那現在就是說未來像這一種因為去可以跟其他國家有"},{"start":7182.877,"end":7206.468,"text":"聯合演訓的機會台灣其實蠻缺乏這個那北方打擊根據美國那邊揭露的訊息北方打擊有好幾個國家參加這是難得的經驗那未來我們這樣子整建制的單位尤其聯兵營是一個最小的指揮單位跟以前排級聯級是不一樣甚至是培養未來高階的軍事將領非常好的機會未來這樣的營級單位的訓練有沒有計畫在擴大"},{"start":7210.07,"end":7223.001,"text":"昨年我們因為狀況,我們能夠強化一定強化,因為這是經濟成本的影響,這下要看,譬如說人員這要多少,或者單位成績提高,這都在討論範圍以內。"},{"start":7225.463,"end":7246.362,"text":"目前還是兩個贏嘛那我接下來請教過去我們常會有一些總職教官我印象邱部長也到美國讀過嘛就我們派些人到美國Virginia你好像是名人堂的校友然後到西點啊到哪裡到Annapolis常會我們發一個情形學了新觀念的總職回到台灣總職會遇到困難"},{"start":7249.767,"end":7269.065,"text":"水土會不服文化會挫折那現在整建制去美國受訓整個營去整個營回來未來這些回來的單位他是會成為總之教官出去還是他這個單位還就是一個新式訓練的單位全建制回來還是維持原單位我們目前計畫是什麼"},{"start":7270.373,"end":7293.385,"text":"報告委員,這兩種都有,他既然去受過訓,但他的經驗比我們一般沒有出去的人要多一點。但我原來有講到,有些受完訓回來以後不能適應來幹什麼,主要原因在什麼?因為我出國受訓過,我知道他們的心態,所以我一直跟他們講說,你不管國外再好,人家再強大,你不要忘了你的腳站在哪裡?"},{"start":7294.506,"end":7320.733,"text":"所以這一句話我覺得好像跟大家都適用所以說人員他是接受的訓練他經驗豐富回來以後我們不管他派到其他單位去做一個施肢或在原單位維持的戰力都可以做但目前我們都樂見嘛那個水土不服有時候造成人才的是不會浪費掉我倒覺得一個新訓單位回來以後越來越多的新訓單位那我們的戰力會提升嘛我最後借兩分鐘問"},{"start":7322.073,"end":7322.353,"text":"美國特戰部隊"},{"start":7341.823,"end":7368.493,"text":"大概是要去參加什麼樣的活動他不會來遠足啦也不是去郊遊就整台卡車載著往上陣跑這樣子那現在美軍在台灣最近有個話題是美國的海軍陸戰隊是不是永久駐台那五角大廈是沒有否認也沒有承認他就不評論然後呢之前有一次比較特別的是蔡英文總統去澎湖看我們的應該是陸軍的我們的特種部隊"},{"start":7370.154,"end":7388.985,"text":"那那個聯合的演訊上面的說明的科目上面有綠扁帽的部隊在裡面那通常我們的默契是可以揭露的大概就是雙方默契允許的否則那個科目表上不會把它寫那麼清楚在澎湖那一次那有提到海報啦有提到安和旅等等"},{"start":7390.205,"end":7410.216,"text":"目前美軍在台灣的人員其實應該是相當多但是身份不像大家講的就是駐軍在這裡比方說最近剛通過的軍購案Link 16有人講Link 16就沒有Link 22其實不是啊Link 22就是在Link 16北約在海軍上面往上加的他其實是"},{"start":7411.107,"end":7415.815,"text":"有雷同的部分就Link16之後他要派400個人來200個軍職200個契約商嘛那這200個就是顧問那另外呢我們之前I3"},{"start":7422.162,"end":7440.563,"text":"也會有5年期的計畫相當多的軍事技術顧問常駐台灣5年這個都是揭露過的訊息我才在那邊提所以目前部長我請教美方相關的軍事人員在台灣數量跟以往比起來是不是有相當大的增加"},{"start":7441.38,"end":7469.845,"text":"我跟委員報告基本上這都在一個交流的一環人數沒有什麼增減的問題但他來的平次會比較增加平次是來來去去我現在講的是我講的是比如說進駐一年期的五年期的沒有進駐的部隊我這絕對可以肯定他沒有進駐部隊他來有參加什麼協定他做哪個科目給他的經驗給予我們做一個說明這對我們來講是有幫助的"},{"start":7471.185,"end":7471.725,"text":"邱國正報告業務概況：完整會議"},{"start":7490.755,"end":7491.135,"text":"會不會用到?"},{"start":7533.26,"end":7561.377,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員 洪森漢委員我們待會林益君委員詢答結束後林柱英委員也在這裡林益君委員詢答後我們休息5分鐘我們現在請洪森漢委員請邱部長來 部長請洪委員好"},{"start":7562.591,"end":7585.781,"text":"部長今天想要跟你請教一下關於這個我們在全社會動員上面的事情喔那部長這個全社會動員就廣播角度來說這是軍的事還是民的事這是全面的軍民都有的軍民都有嗎那部長我想請問目前我們的這些動員計畫目前準備的到什麼程度"},{"start":7587.158,"end":7597.423,"text":"委員所的程度是怎麼樣?到底能夠層級還是到...就是目前我們的動員的計畫準備到哪裡了?就是目前準備的內容的狀況大概進度到什麼地方?那部長你覺得對於現在的準備的狀況你滿意嗎?"},{"start":7611.175,"end":7612.416,"text":"那部長你覺得落實是不是需要紮實的演練跟驗證?"},{"start":7640.981,"end":7641.261,"text":"國防部長邱國正"},{"start":7657.881,"end":7686.775,"text":"那你現在要來演練這個是不是要打仗了是不是現在這個兵兇戰危之類的這樣的疑問的時候我們在擴大演練的時候當遇到社會可能有部分的政治人物部分的媒體就用這種方式來質疑的時候我們自己心裡就會有一點質疑就是說不想要被認知為是不是現在就要打仗了所以在要去擴大演練就會有所質疑坦白說這是我"},{"start":7687.793,"end":7687.973,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":7712.144,"end":7736.884,"text":"這個循環下來就會有媒體就會有某些人就會開始說哎呀你們現在講準備好這都是漁勇就開始扣這個帽子是漁勇我自己有點擔心這件事情所以部長我這邊想要請問的事情是說就你或者是包括白署長我們全社會動員這一個我們設成另一個權動署我們的目的是什麼"},{"start":7738.673,"end":7765.879,"text":"我先跟委員報告全民發言動員所用意就讓我們軍民有這個概念動員工作不光是完全軍事動員包含民力的、物力的而這民力物力的所管理的部會不完全是軍方所以你看經濟部、內政部、交通部通通會、納入、農委會等等什麼原因?就是因為這是一個全民的當成立的用語價值委員"},{"start":7767.346,"end":7767.746,"text":"邱國正報告"},{"start":7797.606,"end":7812.095,"text":"所以這對我來講也是個訓練,要推動人員工作,更加要注意到協調溝通,而且要溝通要靠邊組的,不是我軍方去協調,這我們就叫全民防衛動力組成立的,這也是平常要工作的範疇之一。"},{"start":7813.576,"end":7836.819,"text":"要做這種工作之前一定要協調溝通部長我同意這裡面會有很多協調整合的工作但我覺得有一個環節是在剛剛講的關鍵環節是說我覺得我們要讓社會很清楚知道我們為什麼要來做這個全社會動員的意義在什麼地方我們要讓大家知道其實就像部長之前剛剛有講到我們要做最壞的打算跟最好的準備"},{"start":7837.74,"end":7862.967,"text":"我們要把大家國人的防衛信心給建立起來甚至防衛信心的意志建立起來以後能夠讓我們設想可能會來侵犯我們的人知道就算也許你可以傷害我們但你很難拿下我們你很難真的控制整個台灣這個政府這個社會你很難所以他開始會回過頭想那成本很高我是不是要來做這件事情我覺得我們要讓社會知道"},{"start":7864.087,"end":7882.481,"text":"這一個我們要做全社會動員的目的在什麼地方這是一套論述不然我覺得我們常常會遇到社會開始質疑說是不是打仗了是不是兵兇戰為然後我們自己就我覺得就有一點心虛尤其是我剛才說的在社會領域的動員上面更是這樣因為也許你們漢光練習也許你們在"},{"start":7884.902,"end":7905.221,"text":"軍方的演習還好你們覺得在軍方內部做可是社會動員你們會去動員到很多社會的環節覺得會影響民心或等等等的這些事情我自己覺得現在我們在全社會動員上面對社會的論述不夠清晰所以很容易受到現在大眾或媒體一有之一我們就會怕怕的"},{"start":7906.428,"end":7933.006,"text":"我們就不敢做或者在思考是不是減少規模可是這循環下來就變成是一個負面的循環因為不做紮實的演習我們就沒有辦法確認我們準備好沒有辦法準備好的話我們就影響到底我們實質的準備的能力如何所以部長這是我現在擔心的事情所以部長我自己是希望說我們接下來尤其是我們全社會動員我們可能會越做越深"},{"start":7933.706,"end":7959.107,"text":"我們會越做越廣這是必然的所以我剛剛說的這個質疑也一定會出現甚至我都說我們其實現在在立法院裡面就有一些委員會用這種方式來去對這個事情提出質疑或者是削弱我覺得我們不能在這個環節怯弱我們不能在這個環節質疑但不質疑的要做的準備是我覺得我們要跟社會講清楚我們做這件事情的目的是什麼東西"},{"start":7959.767,"end":7980.957,"text":"部長你覺得?我覺得委員講的很有道理但我要跟委員做個說明信息是我個人是沒有信息的問題但我知道會造成我們執行單位為了避免把標準降低我們已經有看到這種狀況是的確這會有但我現在跟同仁怎麼講話"},{"start":7982.177,"end":8008.087,"text":"這也就是訓練啊我們訓練把這個人找來以後要很短時間讓他進入狀況最好的方法是什麼做個樣本給他看而這個樣本是我們在做我們做好了以後對我們幹部來講你要如何讓樣本推動那就多溝通這也是訓練的課題之一啦部長我同意但我提醒一個事情是我因為去年我們在選舉過程裡面其實我們政府喊出一句我覺得很重要的口號"},{"start":8009.787,"end":8033.815,"text":"備戰才能止戰部長你也同意嗎甚至我們很多在野黨的領袖他也講了說備戰不求戰我覺得概念是差不多的包括柯文哲主席他也講備戰不求戰我覺得概念是差不多的我覺得我們應該從這個概念發展出我們為什麼要做全社會動員的目的是什麼讓大家清楚所以當大家有疑問的時候信心受動搖的時候或受到各種訊息去影響的時候至少大家心裡知道"},{"start":8036.226,"end":8061.165,"text":"不應該是這樣想的我們應該反而是做好準備這是為了什麼目的我覺得這一整套的說法目前我說實話我覺得在現在全社會動員的計畫裡面我比較沒有看到跟大眾的溝通包括我們的論述而且這可能也是認知上面必須攻防作戰的一個部分所以部長我自己有幾個提醒我覺得這方面強化"},{"start":8062.646,"end":8086.44,"text":"這個論述的討論我比較能夠強化我們防衛的信心我自己是建議說我們是不是應該來邀請一些同樣關心台灣防衛安全的朋友也許學者專家也許民間團體甚至一些政治部門一起來討論我們要怎麼來討論全社會動員要給社會什麼樣的訊息目的是什麼東西我覺得這一環做到好我們心裡才不會怕怕的我們才有辦法真的能夠把演練跟驗證給做好"},{"start":8088.041,"end":8102.766,"text":"才會有真正的防衛信心部長你同意嗎我很同意我很感激委員給我一些啟示就是說我的確在要不要專家學者我認為需要在座課題研討很浪費時間但委員就提得很好多方面"},{"start":8103.806,"end":8125.698,"text":"這不是只是軍方自己想的,我覺得不是軍方,尤其跟社會動員有關的事情我了解,的確我們把這當一個重要課題,我請全方位動員署把他納進去以後要做一個工作推動前,一定要經過大家研討,充分溝通對我們來講也是一個訓練,對整體來講也是一個訓練部長這部分麻煩你們,因為我覺得這部分很關鍵,不然我們全社動員怕反而"},{"start":8126.34,"end":8127.661,"text":"因為演訓國軍強大 因為國軍強大才不會兵凶戰危"},{"start":8146.072,"end":8147.313,"text":"主席林柱英委員"},{"start":8174.006,"end":8175.948,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請邱部長邱部長請林委員好"},{"start":8185.626,"end":8210.418,"text":"部長早在跟您詢答之前我想先問一個ABC的問題但請您放心這個不是一個什麼陷阱題因為剛剛其實我在認真看你的業務報告的時候特別有提到要反認知作戰要堅定軍民的心防其實剛剛前面的很多委員問到了非常多的部分包括我們要增強我們的實力那所以實力的部分當然就是軍備的部分軍備實力要堅強"},{"start":8213.099,"end":8232.118,"text":"所謂備戰才能止戰另外當然就是國軍的素質要提升這樣子在新式作戰當中我們才能夠搶得機先但是我剛剛對於您講的有一句話我非常感動是當這些受訓的軍人最後要回頭想一想自己站在哪裡我覺得這是最重要的那麼"},{"start":8232.879,"end":8240.852,"text":"我相信政黨會輪替我從以前在跑新聞的時候大家都講了軍隊國家化其實軍隊是國家的所以說現在民進黨執政軍隊不是民進黨的"},{"start":8243.666,"end":8259.995,"text":"未來如果換了另外一個政黨他當選了總統軍隊也不是那個政黨的所以軍隊是國家的不知道部長您認不認同我完全認同而且我跟委員多講幾句我一直很感激感激什麼感激慶幸我自己身為軍人因為軍人沒有這個黨派的問題我一直從這一方面去走的"},{"start":8264.517,"end":8265.157,"text":"這是一位現役,現在當然他已經不是了"},{"start":8283.948,"end":8311.768,"text":"他曾經寫下的字條他說他在此宣誓支持兩岸和平統一效忠祖國一旦兩岸發生戰爭本人會在自己的工作崗位上盡自己的能力為祖國效力完成和平統一的光榮使命他姓向部長您知道他是誰嗎我知道他是誰好我只能先委員官有沒有問我先下定論是無恥可恥好"},{"start":8313.191,"end":8326.964,"text":"因為這個完全是打擊了國軍的信心而且就像您剛講的這一位在服役的過程當中他竟然可以立下誓約就您所說的就是個無恥之徒但是"},{"start":8328.716,"end":8357.236,"text":"當法院起訴他的時候竟然用的是貪污治罪條例他向中共宣誓但是大家就想這個判決天哪是不是我們的檢察官不知道用錯了法律不是是因為如果說他對對方宣誓了投降承諾書但是這張投降承諾書只能用貪污治罪條例才能判他重罪因為我們現行的法規當中不論我們收了多少的國安法"},{"start":8358.899,"end":8382.384,"text":"他頂多就是只能用一個5年以下的有期徒刑所以其實我時間有限我想問部長看到像這樣的狀況的時候只能用貪污來辦他我知道我們民進黨也有一些委員在接受訪問問到這個案子的時候他提到的是說其實不只是國軍會被簽署所謂的這個投降同意書效忠別的國家"},{"start":8382.824,"end":8400.776,"text":"﹗"},{"start":8400.776,"end":8430.776,"text":"﹗"},{"start":8430.836,"end":8443.508,"text":"那麼刑期不夠重當然就有人膽敢立下這種誓約所以部長您怎麼來看是不是洛海空軍刑罰也必須要有所修正我特別看了這一次的業務報告在第19跟21也有提到"},{"start":8446.731,"end":8462.546,"text":"現在目前為止只打算修正的是陸海空軍的懲罰修法草案以及軍人權益的相關的處理法案在我指出這樣的問題之後部長覺得我們國防部是不是也應該要拿出應有的態度呢"},{"start":8463.351,"end":8487.14,"text":"我跟委員報告,剛剛講到無恥可恥是很心痛的事,但法規定在這個地方,我不想無奈,我們也很期望去講說軍刑法能夠恢復然後執行,像剛才講到這一條,它前面一開始有個前提,它未遂的才會5個月以上,5年以下,它以遂的話,國防委員看到槍決,處死刑案"},{"start":8488.659,"end":8517.808,"text":"對,但我不能講,因為我自己個人認為,我就好像咬地,法有一定程序,我們要一步一步趕,我們也期望講說這些人民受到最嚴厲的制裁,不但有懲罰他的作用,還有警告我們國軍同仁,大家要齊心一意,而且更讓國人知道我們國軍的向心力是絕對基於法,而且基於本身內心發出來的,效忠國家的,不會再有這種事情。"},{"start":8518.302,"end":8518.442,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8540.456,"end":8550.012,"text":"去修正相關的法令因為如果你用所謂的預備預謀只有6個月以上5年以下有期徒刑我想在這裡包括在場的大家也都不希望戰爭發生嘛對不對"},{"start":8552.116,"end":8579.127,"text":"那所以我特別提到的是說過去國軍對於陸海空軍的刑罰當中因為酒駕因為毒駕因為軍事造謠因為霸凌因為軍中賭博我們都可以來做修正這宣示著軍中對於這些行為他們所不能接受跟不能容忍但是就像剛剛我大前提的ABC我也請您回答的就是說如果國家的軍隊"},{"start":8580.865,"end":8599.879,"text":"他所效忠的是另外一個國家不是中華民國是中華人民共和國的時候我覺得他的嚴重性肯定是放在第一個優先順序所以我期望部長今天這個議題討論了之後回去來演你是不是"},{"start":8600.459,"end":8624.563,"text":"國防部要拿出態度因為沒有態度就是鼓勵就是縱容我相信您的重話也放在前面了但是至少行政院要有版本國防部要有版本至少重視這個命題好嗎因為我相信這個才是真正的我們剛剛前面講的不論是在戰備戰力武器人員素質提升心最重要不然"},{"start":8625.263,"end":8641.229,"text":"我回到我剛剛我想要強調的是沒錯一旦真的投敵會處於死刑但是我必須強調我們不希望戰爭發生真的出現投敵的狀況所以請部長把這樣的一個想法帶回去演你可以嗎"},{"start":8642.289,"end":8670.487,"text":"絕對要這樣做我跟委員報告我們真的很心痛有耐於法的規章我們好像眼看好像就是沒轍其實我個人我跟同仁講好多次我最痛恨就看這個人犯錯以後而我還沒有辦法我這口氣我都咽不下所以我絕對密切配合而且從眾來處理這些人員因為這最基本軍人要有一個品德軍人的武德在哪裡就在這個地方這個人守不住一切免難"},{"start":8671.307,"end":8679.872,"text":"最後不好意思主席我用最後一點時間是因為今天早上因為有因為將領同車然後無法抵達現場的狀況其實最新的即時新聞已經出來了那麼媒體朋友呢他們當然很專業不過呢他們點出了一個問題就是說這個國防部的BUS在大直有出了一點狀況那麼以至於呢他們看出了一個問題是說讓這麼多重要的國軍將領在同一個BUS上那麼會不會有所謂在同一個BUS上面"},{"start":8699.682,"end":8701.522,"text":"每個一輛車或幾個一輛車你看這個交通流量為何多方面考量這個好意我也很感激我們以後會斟酌"},{"start":8727.469,"end":8728.37,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8744.219,"end":8766.198,"text":"不過這倒是一個問題也許分成兩巴就折衷單一架的話各位都是重要的軍事將領到最後只有一個腳受傷的存活下來這問題很大對對對剛才提到這是一個好問題就是說安全是時刻需要我跟在場的同仁跟國防部大家討論一下"},{"start":8767.159,"end":8790.746,"text":"因為剛才說林益君委員巡達完我們休息五分鐘因為陳冠廷委員是我們本會委員到了我不知道部長需不需要休息我是不是把這休息五分鐘把它取消掉我們繼續各位有沒有意見你沒有問題啦那如果沒有問題的話我們剛才宣告那個休息五分鐘把它取消掉那經在場的同仁同意那我們現在進行巡達的委員是林益君委員"},{"start":8805.234,"end":8808.079,"text":"主席好有請部長上台來部長請"},{"start":8816.434,"end":8838.396,"text":"林委員好部長好部長常年擔任保家衛國的重責年輕的時候留美然後又留學非洲擔任過退伍會的主委還有國安局的局長現在你擔任國防部長所以都在守護台灣人民的安全所以相信全國的人民都是有目共睹的"},{"start":8839.497,"end":8847.43,"text":"然而目前國際的局勢其實十分的危險不安臺灣的國防安全更是危機重重我想請問部長全臺灣現在有幾條可以讓戰機起降的戰備道"},{"start":8853.712,"end":8855.333,"text":"這五條戰備到過去進行了幾次實際的起降演練呢?"},{"start":8879.395,"end":8889.703,"text":"在台海防衛戰中戰備道對於空軍的戰力其實是有非常重要的意義因為每次戰備道的開設其實都是非常的不容易"},{"start":8890.811,"end":8892.172,"text":"當然我們要有機會,我們還是要把握,就演練,演練還是必要的"},{"start":8912.984,"end":8923.313,"text":"一般我們會談到戰備道的起降就會想到瑞典、芬蘭和瑞士但是其實最近波蘭去年的時候為期有4天的軍事演習當中有4種不同的航空聯隊輪流在波蘭一條的戰備道上至少演練了12次的起降這跟台灣的過去戰備道起降的演練相比好像更加貼近實戰化請問部長你同意嗎?"},{"start":8938.786,"end":8953.735,"text":"我同意但是我們國情的狀況委員也應該能夠了解我們國情從來不規避說麻煩不做這越麻煩我們越要做麻煩當中就訓練出我們怎麼樣來從事準備的項目這都是正面的"},{"start":8959.318,"end":8968.903,"text":"國防部的努力和難處其實本席都可以了解但是本席還是希望國防部要努力讓這種演練盡可能的貼近實際的情況像國防部昨天開始執行的跨職業的飛行訓練不是也頂著可能被居民罵的壓力嗎來做了夜間的作戰訓練嗎雖然本席也是曾經被民眾陳情反映過"},{"start":8983.311,"end":8995.83,"text":"但是針對這件事情本席還是希望非常支持國防部的做法只是要如何讓民眾了解還有做好敦親睦鄰的工作這個可能就是要考驗國防部的智慧了"},{"start":8998.054,"end":9018.067,"text":"的確我們還要強化跟持續民間的溝通地方的諒解但我們也會來把我們儘量的減少對這個民眾的干擾在這邊還有兩點要呼籲部長的就是第一個就是戰備道的起降應該要強化性的納入軍事演習"},{"start":9019.208,"end":9034.497,"text":"不要怕麻煩因為平常多流汗戰爭的時候就會少流血第二個是戰備道的起降的演練要盡可能貼近實戰化盡可能往最壞的狀況去想定去演練不要永遠都是一樣的劇本在重操演練"},{"start":9036.991,"end":9039.613,"text":"另外想請問部長,我們東部第6條的戰備道聽說已經開始傳聞很久了,但為何到現在都還是紙上談兵呢?直到前兩天開始又傳出有新的路段,請問部長這一次是不是真的會去做呢?"},{"start":9063.578,"end":9092.866,"text":"國防委員報告,其實我剛好也跟所有在場的人做個說明,國軍戰備跑道不是因為要建戰備跑道才要建這個路,而是因為地方政府相關部會要建一條路,我們國軍參與HLA這一點還蠻平整的,稍微拓寬土質把它給改善一下,就可以列為戰備跑道。所以這個工作沒有停,加上地方政府或者哪一部會覺得這個地方在環評有問題,他停了我們也就停了。"},{"start":9093.086,"end":9115.554,"text":"好沒有關係在東部開設戰備跑道有兩個好處因為有中央山脈的屏障所以暫時相對的西部的戰備道其實存活性會比較高第二因為人口的密度低所以演習時間會開設戰備道對交通的影響也比較小所以想請部長一定要努力促成花東地區戰備跑道的建設好的我絕對努力對國軍有利對好謝謝"},{"start":9120.322,"end":9140.431,"text":"部長最近我們有我國有第一艘自建的潛艦海昆號終於在移動到臺船的乾污的過程中露出了它的全貌那我們臺灣其實可以自行研發潛艦其實這是非常辛苦的肯定是我們外界很難想像的想請問部長海昆軍艦的潛望鏡還有軌桿還有電瓶的安裝完成了嗎"},{"start":9148.496,"end":9171.986,"text":"已經完成才能夠做播廣那海昆劍現在的進度到底是在建造階段的末端還是已經 本期提醒一下如果涉及機敏報告的話不可以在這邊討論了但是有些工作他已經以封殼就代表他的功能已經具備了那我就是說一下就是我們海昆劍的測試工作就是要穩穩的做千萬不要受到任何的政治干擾可以嗎"},{"start":9172.366,"end":9172.386,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":9190.851,"end":9194.352,"text":"海虎軍艦人員落水的意外已經完成事故調查了是嗎"},{"start":9208.437,"end":9235.816,"text":"人員還在搜尋當中但是有調查處調查海軍要說明一下好沒關係那請問部長你同不同意國防部有責任必須向社會做一個完整的交代呢所以我先跟委員報告任何事情發生都是遺憾國防部難辭其咎但我們檢討問題是從三方面環境機械跟人為環境當時環境不好"},{"start":9236.997,"end":9238.339,"text":"軍艦人員落水事件來龍去脈要好好交代清楚"},{"start":9257.621,"end":9275.129,"text":"美國海軍在過去幾年啊比較嚴重的海上事故都有公開非常詳細的事故調查報告我覺得像美軍這種透明公開的做法其實可以破除很多質疑也可以讓社會還有讓大家更相信軍隊"},{"start":9277.313,"end":9299.706,"text":"所以本席還是呼籲部長試著出一份事故調查報告內容長短沒有關係至少要能夠更清楚的破除所有的質疑這樣民眾才會對軍隊更加的信任所以我們有調查以後經過一個公正單位他們認定的我們是自然會公開但委員那邊其實需要的話我請海軍跟委員做說明"},{"start":9300.106,"end":9302.247,"text":"本席提醒部長一下,我們對美國採購的400枚陸基魚車飛彈為何到目前還是延遲交貨的狀況呢?可不可以請部長務必持續向美國方面傳達台灣防衛需求的急迫性呢?"},{"start":9319.275,"end":9319.495,"text":"有關魚叉飛彈的部分"},{"start":9340.638,"end":9349.466,"text":"他一直都按照現在的進度在走但是包含接裝的訓練還有其他的部分我們也跟美方一直在積極爭取進度有沒有延遲沒有延遲"},{"start":9353.44,"end":9375.33,"text":"那國防部如果說一直在努力這樣的話那到時候如果看看進度的情況然後再來書面報告還是我們再來好謝謝林議軍委員部長請回那林委員如果關心海倉我們未來也許海倉可以用個秘密專報的方式了解現在海倉就是海昆號那一個工廠的進度到時候再跟你匯報謝謝好部長請坐"},{"start":9378.94,"end":9396.475,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是鄭天才委員時間5分鐘主席各位委員有請部長來部長請鄭委員好部長好"},{"start":9407.555,"end":9434.42,"text":"國防部有在規劃要興建在台東花蓮的戰備跑道嗎?不是我剛剛講不是我們規劃因為花蓮的地方要有一條路公路啊他當初不管地方政府或相關部委他認為有評估有這個必要所以要建一條路那國軍的戰備跑道這段路某一段蠻直的只要稍微做一個強化"},{"start":9438.545,"end":9462.743,"text":"部長這個要等花東快速道路完成之後才可以蓋戰備跑道我不反對但是要等花東快速道路以現在的台九線不可能啦第一個第二個"},{"start":9464.039,"end":9483.021,"text":"在台東有自航機場在花蓮已經有加山基地了還有民軍軍用的機場也有在花蓮所以這個部分所以這個在回答的時候真的是要要很謹慎"},{"start":9484.807,"end":9513.987,"text":"很像要打仗啊不要產生這樣的一個作為國防部長要止戰我們要避戰要止戰對不對要避戰好這個部分重點還不在那邊啊你看我們志願役兩年一七千人離任連軍人都沒有啊對不對這我已經執行過很多次了"},{"start":9515.558,"end":9534.858,"text":"這個數字是112年的今年的數字你們再補充一下這個軍官士官士兵就這麼少的人了志願役所以這個第113年度的再提供數字資料給我可以補充嗎還是你現在可以唸出來"},{"start":9538.423,"end":9559.983,"text":"我沒有搞懂啦,我們再去了解,剛剛委員講的一定要等到那個路啊,怎麼樣,我剛剛已經講過,這個路是經過...不是,因為剛才前面的委員,他質詢說讓城市趕快蓋,所以我說現在還不適合蓋沒有,我們沒有預設立場,一定是經過一段程序完成"},{"start":9560.583,"end":9587.546,"text":"但是現在媒體一直報導這個部分啊不要影響民心啊在媒體也有反對的哦媒體也有反對的我看到也有對所以不要影響民心所以我只是建議部長答覆也很謹慎我不知道我哪邊答覆有問題還是會造成什麼樣的我沒有啊因為前面的委員說要趕快蓋有需要因為有專案上面"},{"start":9589.025,"end":9600.79,"text":"那個擋住所以這個部分你要回應的時候要很謹慎我的意思我沒有別的意思只是要很謹慎這樣好不好因為我要進來之前媒體就一直問我"},{"start":9603.552,"end":9613.862,"text":"剛才有媒體問我,我的想法也一樣,我想說有道路我們才看,可以來借戰備跑道,不要反過來。剛才你要這樣講,要很好,要回答,所以我具體建議,有了花東快速道路之後,再來,很適合。"},{"start":9622.833,"end":9624.615,"text":"我提了很多次志願役的士兵"},{"start":9651.143,"end":9677.601,"text":"實領的薪資待遇真的是偏低的不能只是靠那個軍公教調薪的時候不能只靠這個要具體的解決要提出新的薪資待遇的一個計劃要特別提出來我已經提了好幾次所以這個部分你最好的"},{"start":9679.517,"end":9685.131,"text":"再一次經過經過經過我不反對啊但是再怎麼精良的"},{"start":9686.53,"end":9709.319,"text":"不管是飛機還是什麼槍包彈藥還是什麼艦艇都一樣都要有非常精良的士兵才有辦法所以那個一屋一一年也不夠啦以前我們兩年也不夠啊現在何況才一年所以志願役的薪資非常的重要"},{"start":9710.639,"end":9726.534,"text":"所以這個部分真的是要以這個勞工基本勞工來平均薪資都不如啊這個我已經提過很多次這個相關的那個部門真的要提出來部長你要交代要指不然的話一直停擺在這邊"},{"start":9728.856,"end":9732.258,"text":"趙英管制法第17條110年1月20號公布施行這個部分我就以治航機場為例治航機場啊"},{"start":9757.95,"end":9785.907,"text":"本來我們的部落在裡面啊因為蓋自航機場把它移到自航機場的桌邊每天啊每天要聽噪音啊所以補償啊現在沒有過去只有那個什麼弄那個隔音設備啊什麼那些而且是十幾年才隔音設備才補助一次啊現在改了"},{"start":9786.906,"end":9795.058,"text":"可以用補償可以用補貼用經費直接補而且應該每年補啊週一是每天啊"},{"start":9795.939,"end":9797.16,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是陳冠廷委員"},{"start":9845.834,"end":9846.416,"text":"那我們請部長來部長請"},{"start":9857.25,"end":9885.987,"text":"村委員好部長好那本期先向國防部致意那在這幾個禮拜那國防部提供很多一些資訊在本期在資訊之前那我們有良好的互動那這段期間國軍在這幾年他不但提高防禦能力之外那對於降低情勢我相信我也肯定部長的作為特別在一些重大的狀況出現的時候那部長謹慎的發言對台海的情勢都是很大的幫助"},{"start":9886.687,"end":9912.592,"text":"所以這方面我覺得一定要來肯定一下因為同時堅守我國的立場但是不挑釁給我們的民眾帶來和平安穩的生活這是非常重要的我想這也是國防部這幾年很努力在做到的居民溝通那這一次的質詢也是居民溝通的一個很重要的部分那很多民眾關心國防的民眾也會透過這樣子的方式來知道國防部未來對我們戰略的一些具體的做法"},{"start":9913.232,"end":9934.778,"text":"還有一些國防部跟我們民眾生活相關的部分我們也希望再透過這次質詢能夠得到一些意見首先我是想針對國防部的這些跟對國家的警報的具體做法我想大家應該很清楚的知道說去年的今年的1月9號那中共有發射衛星"},{"start":9935.538,"end":9951.974,"text":"那有飛越台灣南部上空那當時我國有發布國家級警報那我想很多民眾當時都有拿到這樣子的訊息那那個時候有一些討論那討論不見得都是負面也有正面也有負面但是我們必須要知道說"},{"start":9953.328,"end":9970.879,"text":"向人民說明警報的標準是什麼統一的應變程序是什麼讓民眾能夠更加清楚的知道相關的資訊接收到資訊之後相關的導引也非常重要他知道民眾下一步要做什麼這方面是不是可以請部長來簡單跟我們說明一下"},{"start":9972.5,"end":10002.04,"text":"我跟委員報告,雖然1月份發生這個事情造成很大的誤解,我們也依據實況來做個檢討改進的,以後發布,我們現在有改變最具體的做法,只要這個美方它有個聯邦太空的單位,它一公布了,我們也接公告,但我們要不要發警報就看,因為它公告是一個經緯度,發射地點經過哪裡,它有經緯度,越越這個範圍了,跟我們研判,有偏差了,"},{"start":10002.78,"end":10030.776,"text":"我們就發警報,這個做法沒有變內容我們也在強化,這是第一個第二個,發了以後至於這個一般的民眾要怎麼做這個我想我們為了要成立這個全民防衛動員署的這是一個災害防救一種作為以後災難來了,民眾要怎麼處理所以這個警告就等於已經可以表達這些加劇化請民眾進入什麼掩蔽物啊等等這個我們可以加進去了但是要考量到"},{"start":10032.984,"end":10037.786,"text":"謝謝部長我之所以問這個問題是因為國家警報的重要度還有它的平凡性可能會引起民眾的一些擔憂所以"},{"start":10050.211,"end":10068.219,"text":"我們必須要在真正在迫切需要立即做處置的時候才有相關的指引這樣民眾才不會過於擔心我想這方面不僅是國防部跟其他的部門跟防災相關的應變天災也都在裡面那我希望是能夠有更完整的跨部會的討論"},{"start":10069.119,"end":10069.279,"text":"國防部創新部長"},{"start":10092.051,"end":10114.883,"text":"部長這個美國的國防創新委員會那其實之前我也跟國防部的同仁有稍微討論過那他是獨立於提供美國國防部長相關的建議的一個委員會那他的組成包含商業啊研究機構啊學界一些重要的像google的前執行長那個艾力克史密特也是其中的一員"},{"start":10115.823,"end":10132.857,"text":"這些重要的商業科技巨頭我認為是可以提供國防部非常及時的質詢為什麼這麼說因為我們也知道說現在的資訊的傳播還有這些技術的進步已經是超越我們想像的那國防部包含美國國防部也是一樣"},{"start":10134.358,"end":10160.187,"text":"想要做革新想要更快速的裝備想要更快速的採用民間的技術或者釋出軍用的技術給民間其實都是需要更快速的方式快速裝備快速部署那作為一個公民一個平民因為我們不是軍人那我們當然是希望說國防部能夠用更快的速度來去協助我們相關的商業科技人才的組合所以我想要請教部長您怎麼看這樣子的委員會"},{"start":10161.427,"end":10182.054,"text":"我覺得這一個很好一個委員會,不管怎麼樣,它從不同的角度提供它的國防部,跟我們一樣我們有很多智庫,但能夠提供給國防部的話,一定是有所本的。我們依據它研究出來的結果,我們要中盤來檢討,但對我們整體來講,一定是正面幫助的,多方的意見。"},{"start":10183.2,"end":10190.222,"text":"可是因為我看到我們過去好像有類似的像國防科技發展的這個推行會那他好像是由副部長來做召集"},{"start":10203.385,"end":10217.19,"text":"那他是要結合民間發動這種國防科技的工業加速這些國防的這些自主等等的可是他好像在109年就沒有運作了,可以請問一下原因嗎?還有運作嗎?有沒有運作?109年就沒運作了"},{"start":10219.687,"end":10222.431,"text":"國防部國科會、經濟部推動先進科技,對這些基礎研究,我們都有7大學院中心,持續在推展中。"},{"start":10235.546,"end":10235.666,"text":"國防創新委員會"},{"start":10251.129,"end":10267.537,"text":"其實在這個美國的這個國防創新委員會裡面他不僅是有AI相關包含生物化學的技術等等這一些不只是商業不只是研究等於是各行各業的最top的人才都有機會給國防部部長諮詢"},{"start":10268.658,"end":10295.986,"text":"那我認為這對國防部的創新也好或者是一些把這些最新的資訊納入我都認為是有幫助的所以很誠摯的希望部長能夠思考一下有沒有相關的可能性那特別是台灣現在的這個台海的戰略我們的台灣的重要性是增高的所以國防部不僅僅是國防的一環還有其他的相關產業其實都是很重要的一環是不是可以請國防部部長來相關的這些討論可以開始"},{"start":10297.426,"end":10314.86,"text":"是,絕對啊,因為剛剛我一開始表達,各方的意見或資料提供給我們,都是多方面參考的一個依據嘛。有時候多段參考,它自然會有進步。那剛剛那個軍備局副局長講的,它雖然好像可能國防部在某一方面沒有主導,但還是一直在參與的。"},{"start":10316.061,"end":10344.427,"text":"現在因為大家資源共用嘛不要各部會都成立一個好像什麼智庫這智庫只要有關的大家都能夠相互參考委員剛剛提的我絕對願意啊能夠幫助能夠參與我絕對參與然後得到資料以後我們做一個參考非常感謝部長因為我們希望有快速的去創新是我們對於挑戰的一個最好的方式那因為我們加哈伊地區有民雄航太園區所以對於這樣子的我們國防"},{"start":10345.427,"end":10348.429,"text":"我希望未來特別針對非重大的都市就六都以外的這些縣市能夠多辦這些說明會其實很多的這些產業產商都不見得是在六都裡面"},{"start":10371.601,"end":10372.362,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員是羅志強委員時間5分鐘"},{"start":10404.403,"end":10405.146,"text":"主席有請部長部長請"},{"start":10417.137,"end":10440.055,"text":"國防部長 前幾天您到立法院來備詢 受訪時對外表示 坦言擔憂兩岸敵意螺旋升高 所以希望能夠避免戰爭 因此從未挑起或挑釁 不過如何用平和的方式來處理 不光是軍方做決定 還涉及政治跟外交"},{"start":10441.496,"end":10470.476,"text":"軍事是政治的延長,那政治有很多作為軍事不宜貿然躁進那我認同部長您說的這一段話那最近大家確實有很多人擔心兩岸的敵意不斷的升高我看到那個趙春山教授也說拖越久兩岸敵意螺旋持續上升所以如果大陸要對台灣動武一點也不驚訝那我想請教部長你為什麼覺得兩岸敵意會升高呢"},{"start":10471.696,"end":10486.821,"text":"因為我是多年看到這個狀況分年我在自己做內心一個衡量比較以前沒有了現在都發生了而且以前他也沒有講不承認中信不承認這個那個他竟然講出來那這不就是一個"},{"start":10493.236,"end":10511.984,"text":"先把您在國防部的業務上所看到的吧你就覺得過去有些他們沒有做的現在都做了是不是那比方說第一個是什麼比如說以前好像那個出海空中或海航這個兵力他平時然後他的距離"},{"start":10513.322,"end":10513.342,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":10532.108,"end":10549.995,"text":"所以我想部長也是在等於是為國家守衛安全的第一線所以親身感受到這一個敵意螺旋上升的一個激戰那我想請問您就說您覺得目前政府端有哪些方式還有可能去降低敵意螺旋的呢"},{"start":10551.27,"end":10573.491,"text":"我講了軍事政治延長政治層面有很多問到我我提供意見沒有問到我的話我就強化我的戰備但是一切我們還是那句話就算提出意見他們也很清楚接受我提意見的人也很清楚不宜貿然挑起任何戰端這是大家共有共識這是絕對沒問題的"},{"start":10575.455,"end":10601.122,"text":"那趙春山教授所擔心的話就是動武也不意外你覺得目前的走向會有這個跡象嗎往動武的方向走嗎這趙教授我們也我也很敬佩他以前也接觸過他這按照這個常理來推嘛因為螺旋脈身高了而且很多的意外的狀況萬一擦槍走火雖然再克制但難免萬一擦槍走火的話"},{"start":10602.162,"end":10602.843,"text":"我有一個感觸,我剛才從質詢陸委會過來"},{"start":10629.164,"end":10651.145,"text":"那我真的是這邊誠摯的希望就是說我們政府其他尤其跟兩岸有關的部門的部會能夠多跟我們的邱部長你請教因為我覺得事實上您的很多比較能夠去比較和緩收縮就是說能夠去當然也要顧住我們的國家安全的尊嚴的前提之下"},{"start":10651.886,"end":10677.135,"text":"那我覺得您的一些擔憂能不能也適時的傳遞給我們現在的行政團隊那我覺得目前看到有些做法上的話我覺得我是蠻肯定您目前對於就是兩岸之間的問題的一個處理的態度那我希望能夠也讓你這個態度不會是只有國防部或是您個人的態度也希望是政府來處理現在兩岸不斷衝突的一個態度那希望部長您能夠再加油一下"},{"start":10677.435,"end":10682.281,"text":"因為以前實際上比較沒有面對所謂第一級的問題因為兩岸關係在之前相對比較和緩"},{"start":10696.477,"end":10698.799,"text":"我跟委員報告當初的定第一期要由部長來決定要反制的命令是當初在湯部長他為了承擔責任"},{"start":10721.378,"end":10740.987,"text":"我們現在改的第一集通常一聽到第一集不外乎槍砲飛彈這叫第一集但我們在目前環境變化灰色地帶這種洗澡我們看到它方法很多不見得開槍開砲所以我就把它界定為什麼只要是一個航空器材或者海航的一個實體"},{"start":10742.438,"end":10758.625,"text":"我們預願我們的規範,譬如說我們借稅,我就把它當作他發起的第1級。他現在發起第1級,那我們就有權利針對他的第1級我們做反制。所以我們沒有第1級的問題,我們只有反制的問題。好,謝謝部長。謝謝羅志強委員,部長請回。我們的接戰的規範到目前還是機密。"},{"start":10768.615,"end":10781.325,"text":"第一集定義應該是羅委員問的第一集定義,但是我們截然的規範是機密我印象我們在國防委員,包括我們本會委員都沒辦法問這個問題好,謝謝接下來進行詢答委員是李博義委員,時間5分鐘謝謝,我們請國防部邱部長邱部長"},{"start":10802.469,"end":10818.591,"text":"部長首先對您表達捍衛中華民國領土領海的辛苦對您表達敬意其實我從內政委員會過來從禮拜一到今天其實不外"},{"start":10819.131,"end":10841.877,"text":"一直在提到今夏海域海巡執法的過程造成意外的事件雙方溝通以及現況的局勢造成可能兩岸現在中國方面想要藉此讓情勢更加緊張一點那所以說在海巡方面呢他已經收到很多包含他們的這個"},{"start":10842.937,"end":10845.318,"text":"國防部在這一方面的監控我想會更加的緊張包含對岸把這個M503航線再往東靠一點的話"},{"start":10858.962,"end":10884.097,"text":"那我們對於我們整個防衛反應的這個時間不斷的縮短的情況下但我們又是不挑釁但我們又是堅守這個必須要兩岸和平的這個狀況下我想部長有沒有什麼指示要對於包含我們海巡人員以及我們海軍以及我們陸海空三軍的相關的指示有沒有相關的變化"},{"start":10884.639,"end":10905.856,"text":"我沒有對海軍有任何指示或指導,但我們有停產也在交流和溝通。我經常跟我同仁講的話,我也曾經跟海軍在某些幹部碰面時,我也跟他強調,國軍建軍跟備戰是不一樣的。建軍是未來,左眼與未來,要打什麼仗,要抽獲什麼武器,或產製什麼武器,那是未來。"},{"start":10906.957,"end":10928.402,"text":"但我們現在面臨到的都是備戰的狀況備戰講現在有狀況了我們要怎麼處理但我們怎麼應對呢我們現在做法講的剛才委員也提到很多地方改變了改變那我們可能會遇到的狀況那就要把它列進去它改變了我們會有什麼狀況我們要推想設想的原因設想人員不是我部長來想"},{"start":10929.522,"end":10938.553,"text":"第一線執勤的人員,你在執勤在雷達官通當中看到狀況以前沒有的,現在有了,你要列出來,列出來怎麼辦?"},{"start":10939.557,"end":10960.414,"text":"那就是大家要討論嘛這我就把它列為訓練的這一環這幫忙很大部長那我請問你剛提到這個對岸如果飛行器等等的這些如果有越過的話例如美國發生的這個空漂球那我們有沒有對應過如果有這個狀況它漂到澎湖來了我們要怎麼處理"},{"start":10961.435,"end":10984.008,"text":"我這樣,空飄氣球我們一直在監控,它也看季節,而且它這個內容據我們了解,大部分都是碳空的,就測這個大氣上面這個不管溫度、天候變化、風、風向等等,我們看到以後不可能用飛彈去打美國好像是用飛彈打下兩個"},{"start":10986.237,"end":11003.111,"text":"美國大概有它左眼,但我們會告知民航局,還有我們地面部隊,如果降下來了,在我們範圍以內該要把它擊毀,或者該要把它給拿下來,或者撿到了要交,"},{"start":11003.932,"end":11018.592,"text":"這都作為以後敵情研判一個很好的資料阿好謝謝部長我有做足這些準備齁那我身為高雄左營男子選上來的立法委員我還有除了這個國家安全之外我還有另外幾個地方建設的議題在3月1號"},{"start":11021.315,"end":11044.722,"text":"院內跟陳建仁院長做質詢的時候也請教過部長當時是針對濱海聯絡道路新台17線的這個方案國防部的定案這個部長當時也已經給了明確的指示另外我也跟部長爭取包含未來也會在衛福部來爭取中海門往內移之後"},{"start":11046.143,"end":11061.455,"text":"海軍總醫院未來可能會服務大量的這些包含左營跟男子大量的這些社區的醫療品質我們會跟衛福部來爭取相關醫療量能的提升這個在這邊也跟部長承諾我會繼續來爭取在這個"},{"start":11064.697,"end":11080.115,"text":"海軍醫院往南有一個眷村文化保留園區是當時2006年高雄市政府跟國防部所爭取下來的海軍眷村文化保留園區目前也跟國防部在洽談有相關的一些合作"},{"start":11080.675,"end":11103.677,"text":"包含可能未來河群新城會做委外的開發包含這個地方要建長照給旁邊的3個眷村的長輩們來使用這些跟港市政府也都密集的在進行當中這邊也讓部長來了解這個事情另外會有兩條路包含海龍路包含"},{"start":11105.791,"end":11106.432,"text":"接下來進行巡檔委員王宏威委員時間5分鐘"},{"start":11140.117,"end":11165.901,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我請那個邱部長。來,部長請。黃委員好。好,部長好。今天大家應該很多都在問你有關於驚嚇海域的爭議的問題。但是呢,我這邊要直接跟部長來談,就是有關於"},{"start":11166.519,"end":11188.377,"text":"我們這個國防部相關的採購的問題因為大家都知道在去年的年底我們不是有弟兄啊從那個艦艇上從落海那在短短一個月後呢我們的海軍呢就採購這個落海警示器落海警示器"},{"start":11189.258,"end":11207.014,"text":"那這個事實上不只是海軍需要因為空軍陸軍事實上都有需要而且在幾乎在同一個時間陸軍跟空軍也都做了採購但是我給部長看一下"},{"start":11208.166,"end":11214.21,"text":"在陸軍和空軍採了公開徵求公開的採購但是在海軍的部分呢採用的是限制性招標而且以說這個有急迫性有急迫性來做限制性招標"},{"start":11238.649,"end":11263.368,"text":"那這就有點奇怪了三軍都有同樣的需求採購也幾乎在同樣的時間分別的要招標為什麼獨獨海軍他要採取限制性招標這個是一個部分另外我也接獲投訴他寫得非常非常清楚"},{"start":11264.582,"end":11264.843,"text":"說我們海軍採購是一萬兩千個"},{"start":11270.936,"end":11298.634,"text":"那這裡採貢因為這個都已經是你們甚至都在媒體都報導是TB520那麼TB520呢他說一般的預轉時間是36小時他覺得很奇怪一般我們不說我們的救難時間是72小時黃金72小時那怎麼我們這個只有36小時因為現在市面上事實上是有這個時間更多的"},{"start":11299.955,"end":11314.839,"text":"另外更重要的是,你可以看到在右邊的是我們採購的TB520,他在他的官網上,他的採購的價格,跟我們事實上呢,跟我們的實際的採購價格,價格差了。"},{"start":11318.18,"end":11343.212,"text":"他都是美金啦他這是用美金差了大概六七千塊錢差六七千塊因為這個TB520他不是軍規他在網站上可以看到他根本是一般商用性的那所以在網站上價格比我們如果我們是採購一萬兩千個這個價格呢顯然我們是比他官網的價格多很多"},{"start":11344.44,"end":11372.77,"text":"所以這樣子整個的採購的金額變成是多了六七千萬所以我在這邊因為我的質詢時間阿非常有限我想請部長能夠到時候可以問問包含陸軍空軍你們是怎麼採購的為什麼你們都公開招標我認為陸軍空軍的程序比較正常啦那海軍這個招標是怎麼回事"},{"start":11374.73,"end":11394.036,"text":"因為很多這個招標相關的他都已經事實上媒體都有在相關的報導那當然數量的部分你們沒有對外很詳細的說明大概是一萬多個那我接獲爆料裡面寫的非常詳細他說是採購一萬兩千個就非常質疑這次採購為什麼"},{"start":11395.797,"end":11415.835,"text":"海軍跟其他空軍陸軍不一樣所以部長在這邊能不能承諾我你回去可以找他們來談如果這裡面確實有這個招標有問題甚至上有人模不章的問題那麼該調查就調查該處理就處理可不可以"},{"start":11416.531,"end":11436.766,"text":"報告委員報告,首先很感激委員提供這些資料,事實上國防部在做任何事情之前,累積以往經驗,得到一個答案,一切一定要按照依法程作為來做一個程序推動,這裡可能有原因,我也不是很清楚狀況。其實事實上我覺得海陸空如果都要的話根本不是不可以一起採購的。"},{"start":11437.366,"end":11438.947,"text":"對,搞清楚之後,但是重點是絕對不要護短"},{"start":11460.178,"end":11483.714,"text":"該處理就處理,該改進就改進,好不好?不要讓人家覺得很有鬼,這個一定是你們內部傳出來的,裡面寫得非常非常的詳細我跟委員報告多講一句話,我們國防部現在任何一個案子只要有違法的話我第一個動作,送法辦,其他程序照走,送法辦原因在哪裡?在我們國防部不吃案"},{"start":11484.514,"end":11485.494,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員徐欣穎委員"},{"start":11505.912,"end":11514.999,"text":"主席各位列席官員各位委員以及在場的大家大家好有請邱部長邱委員好部長好"},{"start":11526.072,"end":11552.953,"text":"我們現在蘇丹紅造成的這個食安危機已經嚴重的讓整個社會非常恐慌那今天報紙的頭條也有看到我們各級有16縣市的地方政府已經要求學校的營養午餐禁止使用辣椒粉跟這個咖哩粉"},{"start":11553.613,"end":11553.793,"text":"國防部在這一個"},{"start":11573.935,"end":11592.416,"text":"實案危機的這個情況下有沒有下令禁止辣椒粉跟咖哩粉我跟委員先報告我們國軍有大概有21個還有25個25個復工站還有40多個這個叫福利站這裡面一切他這個作業流程"},{"start":11594.258,"end":11618.576,"text":"我只請教您,這個部分,國防部有沒有措施,有沒有下令禁止?有下令,他只要...已經確定也不用?絕對拿掉了嘛,不管是福利算什麼...那OK,所以本席非常關心這個問題,那部長在這邊宣示,我們也放心,針對這個蘇丹紅事件那第二個,本席想請教部長"},{"start":11619.958,"end":11635.729,"text":"3月5號中非南海的衝突那我們也看到媒體報導部長非常非常的擔憂非常非常憂心那面對這種衝突是不是有可能也發生在我們的這個"},{"start":11639.75,"end":11657.322,"text":"臺灣我們的這個海巡跟我們的跟大陸的海警船也有可能造成兩岸的這種衝突部長怎麼看這件事您的憂心那你怎麼看待以及有什麼您覺得可以努力的"},{"start":11657.682,"end":11674.363,"text":"我跟委員報告,憂心的原因在哪裡?這種案例可能隨時都會發生在我們身上,但憂這個。但是我們又看,有很多人家講他山之石可以攻錯,既然有案例要怎麼樣防處,反正也是給我們一個課題。"},{"start":11675.844,"end":11695.966,"text":"這幾年當中,文貫從二屋戰爭也好,最近已經五個月的尾巴衝突,還有現在的狀況可不可以檢答?您覺得接下來,是您等於誰應該去跟對岸是不是應該降溫?您的看法是怎麼樣?降溫這個不是我們在做,但我們有做一個最好的打算,最快打算"},{"start":11698.328,"end":11721.541,"text":"您們橫向聯繫有跟陸委會或是在行政院的院會會報上來討論這件事嗎或您提出您的憂心沒有因為它這個問題還是一個法的問題嘛政治層面的問題還沒有牽扯到我這邊來大家都有一個共識但是您的憂心您有沒有反映本席的問題是您的憂心您有沒有在"},{"start":11722.521,"end":11724.562,"text":"今天本席在內政委員會陸委會好像還沒有這種共識"},{"start":11748.682,"end":11773.21,"text":"所以我們就發現兩邱這個立場還有看待不同我們邱主委跟邱部長的看待不同但是我想您在整個的軍事戰略各方面還有兩岸情勢的研判有您的專業也是代表軍方所以我們也很希望說可以做這樣的一個溝通"},{"start":11778.764,"end":11802.7,"text":"這個各部部會之間應該有橫向的聯繫我想部會平常在意到的一些事情這當然會有的但還沒有真正的議題做得那麼樣直接的一個溝通所以這個政治問題您也認為應該是陸委會要去溝通我不管哪個部會我們不管您不敢講不是不敢講不好講不是你這個人家想說這個輸也有專攻嘛是這個分層負責這應該是權責對我的權責就是我們怎麼樣來強化我們的準備"},{"start":11808.104,"end":11809.965,"text":"接下來進行巡大委員賴世保委員"},{"start":11835.889,"end":11839.55,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請邱部長來部長請代委員好那麼我我記得我在這裡跟你對話齁我剛才去找了一下你從2021年開始"},{"start":11859.619,"end":11859.859,"text":"2020年講的不但嚴峻"},{"start":11874.4,"end":11900.233,"text":"如果處理稍有不慎這個事態嚴重20222023你跟我的對話2023就是去年5月8號的新聞你跟我的對話我就問你那時候我問你首先兩岸關係緊張到什麼程度是不是到了A級你說沒有沒有B plus這個"},{"start":11902.714,"end":11912.184,"text":"你可能忘記我都沒有忘記我忘了A級B級的嘛B Plus的耶阿你Google一下都有阿Google一下賴世寶邱國正我們兩個人對話在這裡我想那H是怎麼樣的狀況我要了解阿H就緊張了阿阿你說沒有沒有那麼緊張叫B Plus是這個意思"},{"start":11921.934,"end":11946.693,"text":"你說沒有那麼緊張是B plus緊張你看大家有在緊張有些人還不緊張啊但我就軍方主委來講的話這已經瀕臨這狀態但並沒有變的兩岸的狀況是很嚴峻的我沒停掉膽的這沒有變的A級B級我覺得好像每個人界定不同但還是不離這個這個這個原意嘛就是是很緊張的就我主委來看一直很緊張的"},{"start":11948.074,"end":11968.742,"text":"請問你一直很緊張是一直上來緊張一直上來還是說是頻頻的都是緊張是哪一個就看狀況嘛因為最近這些狀況不就上來一點嗎等下這狀況過以後會不會有其他狀況是往上提或往下降我不知道啊但我們就以現實來講的話現在狀況的確是很緊張一個處理不當的話我很擔憂是不是擦槍走火了會不會擦槍走火"},{"start":11975.825,"end":11994.994,"text":"我們就不樂見會不會我也不知道你在2022你也講過2025年中國大陸具備全面犯台的能力這句話你講過這句話那現在還成立嗎?一樣成立他要犯台他隨時才一個沒有衡量所以我還強調一句話要慎戰謹慎的慎要謹慎他有這個能力了"},{"start":12002.578,"end":12026.253,"text":"藝人他講說已經錯估了反正我打我給你教訓他沒什麼不能的這我制止不了我是認為他近幾天不會打啦我是這樣看的我怎麼看他都不會打會打的話就不是這個樣子這個倒是不需要太緊張那你說緊張好你晚上睡著好不好"},{"start":12027.228,"end":12046.518,"text":"我就緊張啊,老百姓不緊張,我沒有一個戲謔的喔今天假如國防部長他一點都不緊張的話,大副委員你就要緊張啦,這要為了緊張我真的很緊張,但我不是一個戲謔的話緊張,晚上是睡得好,晚上睡得好嗎?我睡得不好睡得不好,需要吃藥囉,變成了剛才委員我說需要到吃藥的程度嗎?沒有沒有沒有吃藥"},{"start":12055.302,"end":12055.542,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12067.403,"end":12091.098,"text":"空軍閒置用地 憲兵開始搬進去啦!要成立一個憲兵營 500人的在我的刑區裡面 原來是空軍不要用了馬政府就這個地啊 不要用了這個空軍都搬走了 是空地現在呢 回來了 憲兵回來了開始 車輛要進來槍械要進來 炮彈要進來 油要進來"},{"start":12097.726,"end":12125.36,"text":"開始準備要打仗了不是嗎這個我公務都有我公務都有你們這個要不要說明一下有這麼緊張嗎這怎麼會原來空地我們原來的我們的居民都好高興啦這裡面文山區有山多啦魂木多電線桿多軍營多啦啊軍營呢好不容易清了差不多啦好高興結果又跑回來了"},{"start":12127.095,"end":12144.904,"text":"當然要緊張啊 我都聽你緊張啊來解釋一下請憲兵跟委員做為什麼要這樣什麼原因啊委員好 各位委員報告我們這個新德里營區這個部分是配合我們新興殯儀的一個編程那我們來做這個規劃來做進駐是不是增加一個憲兵營在這裡沒有到一個憲兵營"},{"start":12148.126,"end":12148.506,"text":"邱國正報告業務"},{"start":12168.158,"end":12189.023,"text":"當然你要睡不著覺睡不好覺啊這個都已經行動來證明了包括其他的說我們的這個訓練強度加強什麼地方各個點點滴滴我們都看到一點一滴都很緊張啊你們這種動作我們的居民都好緊張啊覺得說啊本來都搬走了欸好高興欸欸又搬回來了"},{"start":12190.871,"end":12207.047,"text":"怎麼會這個樣子呢?本來不要用的,本來我們居民好高興喔,有塊地好幾公頃,這麼大的一塊地結果你們又用了,又拿去用了,當然緊張啊,怎麼不緊張呢?我跟委員報告,我請那個憲兵啊,你不是很清楚,我覺得...我跟委員報告,我請那個憲兵啊,我請那個憲兵啊,我請那個憲兵啊,我請那個憲兵啊,我請那個憲兵啊,我請那個憲兵啊,"},{"start":12214.935,"end":12218.137,"text":"要跟我們當地的居民講清楚我們大家期待好不容易我們的選區幾乎沒有均勻的現在又跑回來了"},{"start":12234.927,"end":12242.469,"text":"這東西是活生生的啦,很緊張的啦!謝謝賴委員,謝謝賴委員各位先請回好,接下來進行詢答委員是陳廷輝委員、陳廷輝委員、陳廷輝委員不在邱志偉委員進行詢答,時間5分鐘5分鐘那個部長軍談時間會不會來不及"},{"start":12261.411,"end":12272.177,"text":"那我們待會在邱委員質詢結束後由博鴻輝副部長代表好謝謝主席請那個邱部長部長請那個軍運局局長陸軍事務部參謀長處委員好這個部長這個我的選區在橋頭有一個這個所謂"},{"start":12291.283,"end":12299.393,"text":"橋頭這個營區啊他主要做廢品的哈這個應該是第4地區支援指揮部新莊營區"},{"start":12301.932,"end":12323.102,"text":"這個新莊營區這個佔地13公頃我大概前天去看過齁主要是說一些這個糧木啦一些這個補給品的儲房儲存然後大概有一些這個山君的啊這個在南部地區的這個廢品的儲存那這個營區這個營區啊13公頃啊住員大概50元啦齁那佔地13公頃那環境的維護就已經很吃力了"},{"start":12329.775,"end":12351.188,"text":"那這個你也知道橋頭是有一個橋頭的科學園區未來高雄市發展的這個核心就是往北從南子到左營然後就是這個橋頭所以橋頭未來的科學園區還有很多公共設施甚至還有這個集合住宅需求還有供應的需求那這個營區"},{"start":12353.069,"end":12381.222,"text":"有沒有可能能夠有更高強度的使用或者對文化景觀有更大的保存它是一個歷史建築歷史建物就是原日本海軍高雄通信所新莊分遣隊在鳳山也有一個海軍通信所它是本部然後這個在橋頭這個所謂新莊分遣隊收信所它是一個分部但是它同時候這個建造的"},{"start":12382.182,"end":12395.955,"text":"所以他是一個被評定成這個歷史監務歷史監務這些有效保存嘛那我看去現場看哇都這個沒年久失修那這個保存當然也不是這個國防部的這個專責跟專業"},{"start":12399.044,"end":12421.921,"text":"文資局跟文化部也很重視所以這個部分是不是可以請國防部因為這個主管機關是軍備局那使用機關是阿巴拉軍團是陸軍司令部怎麼樣讓這個營區能夠更有效利用然後把這個歷史建築能夠有效的恢復保存否則你像整個房舍這房舍是日治時期所蓋的"},{"start":12424.443,"end":12450.025,"text":"那鳳山保存得很好但是同時一蓋的現在沒有有效的保存就變成這個衰敗那另外你要配合都市的發展是把13公頃的廢坪的儲存能夠有效的精檢或者是這些這個補給坪的儲存能夠找其他的地方然後讓城市發展能夠雙贏這個部長您的意見"},{"start":12452.974,"end":12457.077,"text":"第一點委員在5號的時候有到縣子去會刊第一個有關於這個文資維護的部分"},{"start":12480.494,"end":12494.286,"text":"市支部就補給分庫他也委請了高雄市文化局聘請了專業的人員鑑定那這個相關的鑑定的需求修復的需求修繕的需求在3月底會出來那屆時這個我們陸軍會來檢討相關的預算編列依照文資的維護這是由藏籍單位要來負責維護的"},{"start":12502.153,"end":12502.413,"text":"文字盤點,我有協同請文化局跟協同"},{"start":12520.153,"end":12522.575,"text":"文化部文資局去協助國防部這屬於後勤補給"},{"start":12542.01,"end":12561.435,"text":"他不是戰備訓練的基地或營區,你能不能有效的利用,因為旁邊就是橋頭科學園區,那你這個13公頃充滿綠地是未來的淡黃區,是不是能夠更有效利用,能夠配合高雄市政府的規劃,城市的發展"},{"start":12561.795,"end":12585.565,"text":"委員在5號的現刊決議有說在一個月後我們在現地把整個運用規劃向您回報這部分一個月之後我們再議那也請部長瞭解一下另外這個國軍岡山總醫院岡山分院因為這個北高雄老年人口比較多長照的需求很重要這部分長照到了一個位於這個預算的問題再30秒預算的問題這拜託這個能夠"},{"start":12591.288,"end":12594.889,"text":"謝謝委員幫我們很多忙那現在衛福部預算不足的部分我們已經用基金謝謝委員的幫忙什麼時候可以動土"},{"start":12621.055,"end":12621.956,"text":"邱國正報告業務概況．"},{"start":12637.988,"end":12661.144,"text":"本席宣告我們在會議開始就已經宣告邱國正部長到12點要參加總統府軍談原往例我們在國防委員會軍談是國家重要會議所以我們都會準價接下來的會議由薄宏輝副部長代表國防部列席那我們現在請部長先離席接下來進行詢答的委員是黃建斌委員"},{"start":12670.962,"end":12671.583,"text":"邱國正報告業務"},{"start":12693.663,"end":12722.271,"text":"副部長好,副部長那個本席在上次總質詢時候有特別提到關於臺東關山山北道的事情那副部長大概知道這個規劃嗎?知道那副部長你們有編列相關的預算要去討論未來怎麼執行嗎?目前都在評估因為這個還是要跟交通部來配合所以是評估階段?是他還沒有編列預算?沒有副部長你們預算都還沒有編列怎麼評估?"},{"start":12723.376,"end":12742.417,"text":"因為這個是在交通部在初始規劃的時候有邀請我們國防部來商討就未來到路規劃尤其是戰備道關山段過去我們空軍有提出這樣的規劃但是基於這個主管權責機關是交通部所以我們是受邀的單位去參與評估的工作"},{"start":12742.597,"end":12762.343,"text":"所以據本席上次在院會質詢的時候部長是說還在規劃中嗎?對我想說規劃中應該是你們也做好相關的準備了包括說你們跟農民跟當地鄉鎮公所的溝通跟討論應該都做了嘛可是聽起來好像你們預算都還沒有編列不是嗎?"},{"start":12763.562,"end":12791.482,"text":"是的我跟委員報告有關於這個所有的戰備道的規劃事實上來講在全國的戰備道在初始規劃階段的時候都是由交通部主導的那預算的編列有他們統出來辦理那至於說跟地方上去協調要等環評或是所有評估告一個段落以後我們相關的部會會跨部會合作來去跟這個地方來所以這個案子還不確定會做是這個意思"},{"start":12792.603,"end":12817.474,"text":"目前都在評估當中那跟部長請教一下就是說專門跑到施作之後有沒有限限的問題報告委員當然有因為這個牽涉到周邊的所有環境對我們戰機的起降的影響好的那我跟部長報告一下在我們未來要施作的專門跑到旁邊有一個關山鎮農會的穀倉它的高度是27公尺那依照我們限限的標準它一定要拆除對不對"},{"start":12818.291,"end":12820.192,"text":"所以你們有查到有一個故鄉在旁邊嗎?有,當然有所以你們跟農委討論過了嗎?"},{"start":12845.034,"end":12866.145,"text":"都目前為止還沒討論還沒討論之前所以還沒討論只是未來要準備規劃這件事情可是部長你有發現你可能沒有跟你們有跟鄉鎮公所討論過這件事嗎現在觀山鎮農會包括觀山鎮的這些農民人心惶惶他們擔心說未來這要怎麼辦第二件事情我們時間不多我們大概簡單講到就是說"},{"start":12869.785,"end":12885.742,"text":"未來如果真的興建之後,周邊兩邊都是糧田,農民在耕作的時候必須要施肥撒藥,現在都是用無人機來操作,這個部分會不會受到限制?"},{"start":12887.142,"end":12888.243,"text":"所以部長你們到底有沒有跟"},{"start":12914.664,"end":12918.275,"text":"關山鎮農會跟關山鎮公所來協商我們空軍有跟他做什麼時候來請空軍參謀長"},{"start":12920.609,"end":12920.789,"text":"邱國正議員"},{"start":12951.189,"end":12970.573,"text":"民以食為天,稻米是我們吃飯最重要的,稻米也是我們的戰備物資。我們還是在重新強調一件事情,我們要吃飽飯才能,假設未來真的不幸要打仗,我們要吃飽飯才能夠上戰場,而不是挨餓上戰場。"},{"start":12973.514,"end":12986.304,"text":"這部分我希望國防部這邊能夠再做一個檢討然後也特別要求國防部跟我們地方來做個好好的溝通來解決我們當地農民的問題那以上是本席的質詢謝謝"},{"start":12992.108,"end":12992.628,"text":"楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 不在"},{"start":13021.511,"end":13029.895,"text":"林思明委員林思明委員林思明委員不在鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在請參與委員進行尋答哎呀"},{"start":13047.213,"end":13057.938,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們是不是部長不在嗎那我們是不是請次長現在最大的是副部長副部長好副部長好那個博副部長請副部長好參議員好副部長這個我很少來這邊當然是有一些"},{"start":13071.167,"end":13088.502,"text":"是屬於陳請陳請要知道一些狀況是就是說因為現在我們教召然後經時的教召都是7天以上那不少來參加教召的人後來有跟我反映說因為這些教召當然有涉及到"},{"start":13089.742,"end":13114.39,"text":"要吃肉吃肉我就賺錢我就賺年了然後他們是認為說普遍的現在如果每一天大概就是99塊跟112年有七兩塊但是我們也知道現在整個物價是上漲的所以如果你抓美人每日99塊這樣的金額我們有辦法確保說他們叫招的時候他們這樣一日"},{"start":13115.11,"end":13126.117,"text":"一日這樣煮副食,一日三餐,有辦法確保他們裏面的伙食可以讓他們吃得飽嗎?可不可以說明一下?"},{"start":13131.156,"end":13156.818,"text":"謝謝委員關心我想這個問題我們也關注到了所以在114年的時候我們火事費也調高都調高那我們現在跟一般的官秘是一樣的那我也希望就是說像在教召的這個每一次這個結束以後我們都會說相關意見調查那我們的聯市有關火事的部分他都拉入意見所以在今年他已經調高了今年有調高是的是的對因為"},{"start":13157.699,"end":13166.86,"text":"因為我不去召召我不知道怎麼辦所以我也不方便講到講的沒問題報委謝您的關心他們有跟我們反應就是說第一個是火死然後第二個就是說"},{"start":13168.206,"end":13193.272,"text":"因為我們現在叫招嘛,他們大概都會有野地訓練,那野地訓練就是都會帶那個喉喉,喉喉照空間,或是喉喉照空間,學校是比較沒有問題喔,可是如果跟喉喉照空間的時候,但是那個廟宇啦,他們的洗手空間,那個要扁手的地方,不足啊。"},{"start":13194.723,"end":13221.811,"text":"啊還是說沒關係 完整野地訓練就大家親嘗嘴好像也這樣也不是很好啦不是不能這樣子是對啊啊可是就變成說我們在規劃他們訓練當然說如果是真的發生要到野外去那當然又有野外比較嚴苛的條件但是如果他們我們是跟廟宇合作啊廟宇當然就是以他現有的設備他那顆平庸設備啊現有的設備如果在這一個"},{"start":13223.952,"end":13243.229,"text":"這個洗手間不足那這部分怎麼辦我們連市事實上從兩個方面著手第一個移動式的廁所我們必須會有移動式的廁所另外移動式的沐浴設備我們軍方有移動式的沐浴設備所以有關於未來交召這部分我們也聽到了交召人的心聲尤其在廟宇借住的時候我們也發現這個問題我們會把這個問題解決"},{"start":13247.473,"end":13265.796,"text":"好我想這兩個問題是謝謝委員關心是好因為叫招來很重要很重要的訓練嗎是那我們可以把一些火石啊一些基礎的設備把它用的更好是這我們應該要做的是的那在第二個也是關於我們國軍的一些軍人的一些福利啦"},{"start":13266.317,"end":13292.469,"text":"就是說我們知道現在如果君子如果過世那他的另一半夫妻就可以領這個所謂伴奉這個應該是屬於這個善養撫慰金但是我最近也是接到有陳情跟我說的一個狀況就是說假如這一個夫妻兩個都是君子"},{"start":13294.402,"end":13318.478,"text":"兩個同為君子那如果其中一個假如因為服役期間過世了那這一個他老婆會不會有這樣這個半縫的這個服衛金的福利會有嗎?理論上是不行的他告訴我是沒有啦但是這中間有一個不合理的地方因為我想在這裡替國軍爭取一下"},{"start":13320.379,"end":13334.389,"text":"如果這個昂阿某他不是兩個都君子他如果昂是軍人某是一般公務員比方他是老師那這個君子的過世的這個老師還是有半封"},{"start":13337.006,"end":13358.453,"text":"關於這個我想就退輔制度這樣輔續的條例上來講它本身來講它有它的限制因素就是說就是過去的概念是單一信奉的概念但是如果說都是從公職那在比如說同樣都是君子有一個往生同樣君子的話就沒有嘛因為它還是限職你已經有自己的奉旨就少了這一個"},{"start":13361.594,"end":13385.867,"text":"但是我要舉例子,我舉的例子就是很明顯嘛,他同樣都是公務員嘛,公務員也是有他的婦婿的金額啊,但是他因為兩個都是君子,這一比就沒有。我覺得這你們可以思考看看,在公平性而言,他會覺得我們阿嬤們都是君人,這更應該要獎勵他。"},{"start":13387.208,"end":13389.228,"text":"謝謝蔡育委員,如果你想參加教招我們可以研究辦理啦"},{"start":13414.155,"end":13430.275,"text":"另外要研議的除了那個案子以外其實我們現在還有一些對我們自己國軍不公平的像軍轉文年資可以繼續但是軍下去沒有考上公務員隔了5年以後他再回軍以前年資通通不見了"},{"start":13431.212,"end":13450.041,"text":"但他如果隔了五年六年他考上了監獄管理員什麼可以繼續算喔就變成我們自己軍方對軍人的待遇延續性的計算比一般公務員對待的還要低包含剛才蔡議員提這個我建議我們我們相關單位盡速演繹出來我覺得應該公平對待好好謝謝"},{"start":13453.062,"end":13472.627,"text":"吳思耀委員吳思耀委員吳思耀委員不在張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在李坤澤委員李坤澤委員李坤澤委員不在陳培宇委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員不在嚴寬恒委員嚴寬恒委員嚴寬恒委員不在"},{"start":13476.068,"end":13496.691,"text":"本日會議已登記質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議由黃珊珊委員陳培宇委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報相關機關與書面於兩週內答覆除令有約定時間外以兩週為限"},{"start":13498.292,"end":13513.54,"text":"本日委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位於約定時間或以書面兩週內提供本日會議到此結束大家辛苦散會"}]}},{"id":"15704","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15704","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea73b8a2c1b37799c1a3e12858f6389dbb3be8d109af184be43dbf9fdad6a1002a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-07","start_time":"2024-03-07T08:31:42+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-4"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:58:59+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":12437,"委員發言時間":"08:31:42 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宣讀完畢"},{"start":2210.165,"end":2236.044,"text":"好我們議事錄確定繼續進行本日議程報告事項請宣讀報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄二邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況並備質詢宣讀完畢好現在呢我先介紹一下在場的列席的委員還有官員哈我先介紹王美惠委員"},{"start":2239.48,"end":2261.451,"text":"黃潔委員李博義委員徐欣穎委員黃建斌委員麥玉珍委員好現在呢我來介紹一下列席的官員我們今天列席的官員有大陸委員會邱泰山主委綜合規劃處的盧仲尼處長"},{"start":2268.723,"end":2274.208,"text":"文教處張章處長經濟處葉凱平處長法政處周明瑞處長港澳蒙藏盧長水處長聯絡處朱祐宜處長秘書室許君如主任人事室黃群芳主任"},{"start":2298.888,"end":2320.641,"text":"主計是柯淑琳主任鄭豐是卓銘為主任資訊是陳盈哲主任財團法人海峽交流基金會李大為董事長以及邱垂政副董事長兼秘書長還有彭顯鈞主任秘書"},{"start":2329.457,"end":2352.979,"text":"文教處李正義處長經貿處饒仁洪處長法律處張豐清處長綜合處洪普昭處長秘書處黃國瑞處長會計事人事事主任林雅萍"},{"start":2355.852,"end":2363.504,"text":"謝謝我介紹完了列席的官員我們現在進行詢答請我們大陸委員會邱主委來做這個業務報告"},{"start":2372.959,"end":2376.143,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生很高興今天能夠受貴賓邀請來做有關於業務報告那我先用口頭其他的"},{"start":2390.978,"end":2416.49,"text":"請委員在參閱書面報告首先報告近期的工作重點在一因為中共在我總統大選後利用我邦交國諾魯來斷交並且阻止我們主辦亞洲U20的藍牌錦標賽此外還片面的改變M503的航路並且利用三五的船舶事件操作灰色地帶的行動"},{"start":2417.831,"end":2440.782,"text":"企圖改變臺海和平穩定的現狀已經引發國際社會的高度關注同時也在國際場合宣揚一中原則矮化我主權地位對此政府秉持不屈服不挑釁的原則強化我們自我防衛能力與韌性並且跟理念相近的國家積極合作堅定地在維護臺海和平的穩定現狀"},{"start":2442.423,"end":2469.922,"text":"2、中共也持續用政治因素干擾兩岸經貿往來暫停我農漁產品的輸入並片面認定我貿易壁壘對於石化產品也課徵了反請交稅並終止12項ECFA的找收清單同時又操作單方的融合發展措施吸納我人才跟資金政府除了呼籲陸方停止政治操作以外也持續對在陸台商"},{"start":2471.323,"end":2472.044,"text":"主席．"},{"start":2489.905,"end":2490.686,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2519.605,"end":2546.636,"text":"第4自從2月中旬陸方珊瑚的船舶意外事件發生後政府除了盡力協助罹難的家屬當然也期盼各界能夠靜待檢方完成調查公布客觀事實的真相讓家屬可以盡快的得到真正的撫慰同時我們也呼籲陸方對珊瑚的船舶應該要嚴加管理避免憾事再度發生第5政府也在2月1號起"},{"start":2547.576,"end":2562.203,"text":"開放大陸學籍的超過6個月已經完成注射的陸生能夠納保目前已經有超過800多位的人完成納保讓陸生在台的學習跟生活環境更加友善"},{"start":2563.624,"end":2590.007,"text":"第二大部分就未來的這個工作重點那第一那因為當前國際情勢跟美中的互動都會連帶影響臺海的安全跟兩岸的關係所以政府呢除了持續的分析研判中國大陸的內部情勢跟中共的對台作為以外我們也意為這個管控風險以維護國家的利益跟人民的福祉第二面對中共呢持續的對台的經貿施壓政府也以"},{"start":2590.947,"end":2619.546,"text":"臺灣優先作為最高原則敦促陸方不設政治前提在既有的機制以我方協商來解決同時我們也持續關懷臺商的需求強化臺商供應鏈的韌性輔導產業的轉型跟多元的布局第三我們也關懷陸配在臺的生活情形協助他融入臺灣社會跟民主法治的體制針對近期外界關心是否縮短陸配規劃的年限的議題"},{"start":2621.528,"end":2644.084,"text":"由於我們對於任何現狀的調整均需綜合考量各種政策的因素社會的共識以及利弊得失本會將會持續收集整體社會各界的意見由相關機關做好整體性的評估提升在台港澳人士的服務完善港澳居民的來台規範"},{"start":2646.045,"end":2671.377,"text":"也協助更多的港澳人士能夠順利的在台暗居樂業第4強化落實安全的管理推動兩岸健康有序的交流我們也將強化我國的青年學生對大陸的瞭解以提醒他們附入可能的風險跟問題並且注意在入期間的人身安全結與近8年來政府兩岸政策的異常"},{"start":2671.917,"end":2671.997,"text":"主席"},{"start":2695.738,"end":2710.244,"text":"謝謝邱主委的報告繼續我們請海峽交流基金會李董事長大為來做報告因為呢近幾年來我們的海基會好像沒有什麼實質的進展所以本席只給你3分鐘的時間來做說明好嗎謝謝"},{"start":2717.376,"end":2731.302,"text":"主席．各位委員．各位女士．各位先生今天很榮幸應邀來大院報告海基會業務概況承蒙各位委員對於本會的支持特此表達感謝"},{"start":2733.22,"end":2741.769,"text":"本會112年因為疫情解封所以我們的服務案件數量劇增全年累計到365,538件較111年度大幅增長55.3%"},{"start":2751.801,"end":2774.128,"text":"以下檢要報告112到113年2月的工作情形資料請各位委員參閱書面報告本會設有24小時的緊急服務專線全廳後協助兩岸人身安全的緊急事項數目累積到2836件"},{"start":2777.029,"end":2797.779,"text":"另外為了要強化協助接返因為經濟困頓或者罹患重病流落街頭的制錄國人的業務本年度已經增加相關的預算提高整體的服務效能過去13個月中間已經有120件"},{"start":2799.659,"end":2805.805,"text":"在法律服務案子方面,112年度完成文書驗證共計101,948件,較在111年度增幅83.82%。"},{"start":2816.716,"end":2824.299,"text":"在經貿服務方面,配合政府政策鼓勵臺商回臺投資,112年辦理三場的投資、參訪活動,並且恢復大陸臺商春節活動,臺商報名踴躍。在文教服務方面,112年也恢復了辦理臺商子女夏令營。"},{"start":2838.484,"end":2855.343,"text":"今年首度辦理動力營的活動另外在陸委會的專案協助下我們首度辦理陸生商業保險費用補助今年2月起超過800萬的陸生加入健保"},{"start":2856.164,"end":2878.275,"text":"為了要持續加強中國大陸內外情勢的資料彙整分析舉辦了多場座談研討會本人也接到了美國、加拿大、澳洲、韓國等駐台代表的訪問還有很多的國外訪團就兩岸關係及政府立場交換意見"},{"start":2879.235,"end":2894.324,"text":"自然及國安112年度為了要進行自然基礎設施的改善計劃大幅提升了自然防護的能量優化網路的效能確保核心業務的正常運作"},{"start":2895.265,"end":2909.183,"text":"有關於今年的工作重點包括持續協助這個兩岸人身安全緊急事件關懷兩岸青年學子強化臺商子女認同感這個加強聯繫協助這個協助臺商永續經營"},{"start":2916.238,"end":2940.357,"text":"對不起李董事長我給你3分鐘時間那我以為以你的經歷還有專業來說呢你對於現在的兩岸情勢應該會有特別不同的見解跟看法跟解決之道但是你今天的報告不管你的書面報告還是你剛剛口頭的報告我們都聽不到你的專業未來該朝什麼方向去進行還有你努力的方向"},{"start":2941.618,"end":2953.943,"text":"對很抱歉不要跟我報告待會委員會質詢您這個問題但是我要提醒我非常的遺憾真的這個部分的您並沒有你專業還有你們未來要怎麼處理的問題謝謝您李董事長謝謝好"},{"start":2960.287,"end":2983.215,"text":"我們現在進行詢答在委員質詢前我們按照慣例做幾個宣告每位委員發言的時間是本會的委員是8分鐘必要的時間延長2分鐘然後非本會委員8分鐘我們上午10點30分截止發言登記然後臨時提案呢提出截止的時間是10點"},{"start":2984.855,"end":3002.264,"text":"在本會吳啟明召委委員詢答完畢之後我們就處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見好我們現在進行詢答請登記第一位的委員來發言麥玉珍委員"},{"start":3014.077,"end":3019.63,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請陸委會主委有請邱主委"},{"start":3022.955,"end":3045.757,"text":"麥委員好謝謝主委這幾天都請你來辛苦了辛苦了首先我想要請教一下最近大家都在炒就是4年6年陸配的那個時間所以針對這一塊我們覺得是說要一致你有什麼你覺得這樣子是對"},{"start":3048.103,"end":3077.058,"text":"沒有對等的對待你有什麼想法因為你是管理一整個那個陸委會的謝謝委員的這個質詢我知道委員跟幾位委員都很關心這個陸配這個權益的問題那我必須要坦白講就是說陸配的這個權益問題他涉及的面向太廣了太廣了那主要原因當然是如果要從憲政的程式上面看因為我們的憲法徵修條文第11條"},{"start":3077.958,"end":3103.121,"text":"他也特別的把兩岸的人民的這種定位上面的既不是本國人也不是外國人那所以呢他希望我們立法院就用立法來特別做這樣的規定所以呢好問題我們就會把大陸人士的跟這個外國人士的在兩岸條例裡面做一些特殊的一些處理所以在權益上有的多有的少"},{"start":3104.244,"end":3126.165,"text":"你了解意思嗎有的是外籍的沒有但是陸配的有所以我們就是有之間不是對等的對待所以啊那這樣的話他利弊的得失就變成是以陸配拿出來被檢視他跟外配那優惠的地方外配也可以來說那他是不是對外配也不公平啊"},{"start":3126.425,"end":3128.386,"text":"所以我才覺得說現在在炒這個議題是因為我們民進黨這邊希望通過才炒讓我們來就是我們國民黨跟民眾黨就是要來推事實上是你們是想要通過的感覺"},{"start":3142.014,"end":3146.416,"text":"因為我想院長已經指示過了院長也表示過了在院會表示過了說這個問題因為牽涉的比較廣泛所以目前還在凝聚社會的這樣的一個共識那我跟委員報告一下跟包括委員會報告"},{"start":3158.223,"end":3186.111,"text":"事實上這個議題當然有委員也提到所謂的兩公約的這個所謂的我們因為沒有辦法加入但是我們每10年大概有舉辦了一次邀請外國的國際學者來讓我們期待我們要改善的有哪些事實上在第二次也就是說在應該是民國100年那時候的時候就有提出了這樣的一個呼籲所以陸委會也在101年"},{"start":3188.735,"end":3207.327,"text":"一百零一年跟一百零五年各提出了這樣的方案但是在大院呢還是因為有諸多不同的意見那所以呢依我的多年的服務因為我在九十二年就成立協會在二零一六年的時候就是總統大選的時候我們都有去協助就是說"},{"start":3207.987,"end":3210.829,"text":"在炒這個就是6年還是4年的這樣子的議題事實上我們陸配是4年可以就是辦規劃2年等2年就是6年拿到身份證但是呢我們新住民就是外配這邊呢我們是住滿3年"},{"start":3228.017,"end":3250.397,"text":"在辦的過程中呢我們還要放棄國籍放棄國籍的時間就是一年所以後來呢就是還有就是放棄國籍大概一年又在台灣要租滿一年不能回去如果這一年回去的話你又再等要等說再一年所以為了這件事情很多人就是在台灣"},{"start":3251.457,"end":3272.528,"text":"現在目前有一兩百個就是無國籍沒辦法恢復國籍又沒辦法拿台灣的身份證所以後來就是才改說就是三年半同時辦就是我們拿的是外僑基流證所以在同時辦的時候呢在拿台灣基流證的時候呢就是放棄國籍同時辦"},{"start":3273.453,"end":3280.196,"text":"所以就等於就4到5年所以現在我們要的不是說4年是6年的問題是我們要的就是要一致大家都是從國外嫁過來所以希望說一致這樣子的一致的機制還有這樣子的管理我們的主委能做得到嗎"},{"start":3296.363,"end":3311.235,"text":"確實就委員您剛剛已經提到了這樣的話就變成要全面性的去檢討那這個姿勢提到那因為這個外配的問題呢他是在國籍法裡面去規定的那是內政部組長的啦不是我陸委會組長的"},{"start":3312.176,"end":3332.803,"text":"是 但是說我們是陸委會就是一個部會嘛還要再去檢視各自的要求到底是什麼那我想政府的立場從過去剛剛我提到從100年開始大家就想說那不然現實上應該先改善或者增進他們在生活上工作上或者是社會福利上的這樣的一個措施我們是在爭執這個國企問題"},{"start":3335.504,"end":3338.487,"text":"本來就是覺得說我們選舉前大家就拿這個來當就是工具只要選舉就是把我們拉過來拉過去就是把我們分類但是選舉後又拿出來就傷害對我們的新住民跟陸配都是傷害的因為把我們就是分類把就是陸委會這邊就是有一個部門"},{"start":3357.927,"end":3360.568,"text":"專門去為了就是陸配來爭取福利還有權利但是我們沒有一個部門針對就是外配來去協助所以說現在我們有陸委會是不是有一個新住民委員會呢這樣子是不是就是才是公平"},{"start":3375.335,"end":3376.096,"text":"全體委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3394.224,"end":3400.367,"text":"但是那個福利又不平等但是在選舉的時候就是說照顧我們要給你們更多但是在把兩個陸配跟外配拿出來檢視的時候呢就覺得說就是陸配優比較多外配沒有但是呢整個社會的觀點就是說民進黨最照顧外配的但是要拿出來看的時候呢"},{"start":3421.48,"end":3436.147,"text":"事實上是你們最照顧陸配所以你們比較親中不是我們比較親中感覺整個附會對不對所以比較親你比較親但是你親的你又沒有去直接跟就是在"},{"start":3436.907,"end":3441.471,"text":"在就是對岸那邊談都是透過別人透過就是今天也有我們的海基會也通過海基會去最兩岸的溝通所以我們的主委是我們仰望你去溝通但是你都沒有是直接溝通所以你是我們的大家長要去溝通才不會產生後面的問題"},{"start":3459.124,"end":3465.405,"text":"才不會產生更多的議題讓大家浪費時間因為我們領得是政府的錢不要浪費這個時間在吵這件議題了我們要好好生活我們要很單純的嫁來台灣就是為了就是家庭就是每一個女人都是都是為不同性的來去服務對不對為我們小孩為孩子但是你們都一直分類一直在為了這件事情所以我們就是在2016年美國的"},{"start":3489.37,"end":3496.456,"text":"就各國的人權就就說臺灣對就是外配還陸配是最歧視的對不對所以這個部分我們希望就是說我們要來臺灣不管任何的部門都有一個窗口去服務新住民為什麼我們把這個窗口去整合來去服務"},{"start":3511.595,"end":3531.808,"text":"讓一直栽培新住民但是呢沒有一個平台也沒有一個窗口讓大家服務所以變成我們變什麼你要學習要學習我們永遠變成專業學生嗎所以我們希望說這個部分要一致就是要大家都要一致身分一致權利一致對我們在台灣會更好對啊我們要的就只有這樣因為事實上"},{"start":3538.212,"end":3541.979,"text":"大陸配好來台灣現在35萬人對不對"},{"start":3543.57,"end":3547.914,"text":"新住民二十幾萬人但是拿身份證的新住民比陸培多以前是因為沒有任何的部門去保護沒有任何部門去求救所以對大家來說身份證很重要因為我們要留在台灣為了生根台灣要回去沒民主讓人家掛回去不用對不對在這裡就是我們家在這裡要回去要做什麼"},{"start":3569.652,"end":3573.755,"text":"所以呢為了這個要留下來但是現在呢有很多的部門有求救身份證對我們來說不重要重要是怎麼把這個家庭把這個小孩顧好因為我們的小孩就是未來國家的領袖所以說現在我們在這邊我們在這裡當官像大家都在當官所以你們會把你們的職位讓嗎現在總統他已經當總統了他會讓別人當總統嗎"},{"start":3598.789,"end":3625.265,"text":"不可能嘛,所以說怎麼叫做去一個大陸又說清工去一個國外去跟大陸交流就清工所以說大家都清工了所以我們國家是不是跟中國一樣對不對,所以我們希望的就是在哪一個地方在哪裡生根就像我爸說的,我爸說我是哪裡人我是廣東人還是客家人我爸爸說只要你活得快樂你就是那裡的人"},{"start":3626.446,"end":3642.644,"text":"對待我們就是臺灣人我們希望住在臺灣把臺灣就是顧好把我們的經濟把我們的生活主席讓他有一個一題我想要問一下就是現在特別的時間是這個貿易的部分也希望說不要就是"},{"start":3644.365,"end":3665.555,"text":"貿易壁壘現在是大家說的所以因為現在不管是貿易的部分或者是大家在台灣共同來去推廣經濟還有就是台灣的和平這兩項我希望主委可不可以答應大家去做得到因為你就是橋樑你就是跟對岸的窗口"},{"start":3667.317,"end":3681.648,"text":"報告委員委員的建議都非常的好那因為有關於貿易的談判基本上是由經濟部國貿局他們在做這樣的一個負責是那在國際組織上面大概就在WTO對但是關於我們的新宿民陸配的部分還有就是觀光的部分昨天已經講了這些都是你是直接的拜託你就是要有一個溝通的廣告直接面對問題解決問題你才是最大的"},{"start":3696.74,"end":3719.76,"text":"問題的存在就是趕快你又再升官又再連續當官了所以拜託你拜託以上謝謝謝謝蔓越正委員的質詢我希望這個邱這個主委還有李大輝董事長還有我們的民宿長你們能夠聽進去他真的是一席話打動了大家的心坎謝謝好繼續我們請許新穎委員來質詢"},{"start":3731.456,"end":3741.215,"text":"主席在座各位委員各位官員還有各位媒體先生女士大家好本席有請陸委會邱主委邱主委"},{"start":3747.086,"end":3769.997,"text":"主委好主委在一開始我想說先就今天麻煩您所有的詢答呢照問題回答不要答非所問然後如果是深論題請重點式的回答首先第一個您昨天有說到我們這個中國大陸的M503航線事件"},{"start":3771.089,"end":3797.354,"text":"路委會有趣溝通本席今天給你時間請你具體的說明是何人何時去何地跟誰溝通請邱主委回答第一個我想M503是交通部他們做這個全責單位那過去基本上也是由交通部先透過他們的這個聯繫管道去表達這樣的一個意見"},{"start":3798.334,"end":3822.556,"text":"所以是交通部誰去溝通M503是一個國際航線嘛對對對當然本來就是交通部民航局所以跟對岸的溝通不管是飛安航安或者是其他的所以陸委會沒有去溝通這樣的一個問題當然他會涉及到兩岸的這樣的一個安全因為你昨天說有溝通了嘛這樣溝通沒有效"},{"start":3823.939,"end":3824.92,"text":"想請教邱主委"},{"start":3844.309,"end":3864.335,"text":"跟對岸我們陸委會有沒有想辦法去溝通有沒有你回答我們大概所有的兩岸發生的一些議題我們都會有這個意見的一個表達你們用什麼當溝通管道我昨天就已經提到了大概所有的議題"},{"start":3865.555,"end":3867.999,"text":"因為過去簽了26項的協議基本上就是每一個協議裡面都有一個聯繫窗口這是一個過去本來就建議有的機制"},{"start":3880.286,"end":3898.153,"text":"譬如說現在我們現在舉一個簡單可能環球媒體委員會關心農產品如果他檢驗不合格什麼等等他們的海關會發函給我們的海關說你到底在哪一批什麼等等所以這樣感覺所有要跟大陸溝通的我們陸委會都甩鍋給其他個單位"},{"start":3900.134,"end":3902.497,"text":"聽起來因為到現在沒有感覺沒關係我講所以感覺我們陸委會跟對岸剛剛其實蔓玉珍委員也一直強調本席相信今天所有委員大概"},{"start":3914.807,"end":3943.006,"text":"都希望我們陸委會跟對岸有實質的溝通協調能夠有實質的作為但是實際上我們的陸委會都沒有所以民眾都覺得好像都是用三明治媒體在溝通只有放話那再來請問蔡政府八年來有沒有針對什麼事件有派代表或秘使去大陸溝通嗎或者邀請對岸派代表來溝通或討論兩岸事務"},{"start":3945.487,"end":3965.271,"text":"這個恐怕你要問蔡總統了但是我要告訴你的你是陸委會主委你就代表蔡總統我說蔡政府8年我現在要講的就在於說我昨天其實也報告過了好幾個事項譬如說兩位共打犯罪我們幫他送了5、3個人過來我們幫他送了大概13個還是14個過去那你覺得這個這樣的一個公權力的執行"},{"start":3973.174,"end":3988.913,"text":"需要不需要溝通,什麼時間點要送到哪裡,影片要不要交換,各位大概就可以理解基本事務的處理大概都有但是兩岸的僵局一直是大家所憂心的"},{"start":3991.736,"end":4006.571,"text":"包含到今天連我們的國防部長也都說他這麼多年來最擔心的就是兩岸情勢的這種惡性螺旋上升我沒有問題我再說明那接著"},{"start":4007.592,"end":4030.537,"text":"本席想請教我們中非在南海的衝突3月5號那中共的海警船跟民兵漁船呢攻擊了菲律賓的海岸防衛部隊請問主委您認為這樣類似的衝突有無可能我是問你可能還是不可能有無可能會發生在我們海巡以及大陸海警艦艇"},{"start":4031.937,"end":4061.284,"text":"來發聲有沒有可能基本上我沒有辦法做這樣的預判但是我相信我認為沒辦法預判兩岸局勢就是陸軍單位我們海軍跟我們的這個海軍對於所有外界的這樣的一個陸軍我們都有一個依法的SOP好OK我們先有一個預警的我瞭解我瞭解有一個回擊的地帶那我想兩岸都很清楚知道如果想要去侵犯人家的領海那"},{"start":4062.499,"end":4067.363,"text":"請問陸委會必須掌握大陸的法規動態那請問陸委會有沒有購買中國大陸的法規資料庫例如北大法寶大陸法規資料有沒有"},{"start":4085.795,"end":4110.04,"text":"我們這個海委會的管碧玲主委他之前公開說他說我方船舶遇到中國大陸的這個海警船要登檢那不要停船趕快開走請問管主委有先問過您的意見嗎他在講這句話我不知道他什麼時候講這句話啦他的依據我想是他自己"},{"start":4110.56,"end":4113.341,"text":"同樣在同一個執政的政府裡那彼此同才之間都互不相通表示管主委對陸委會很多兩岸局勢的研判也都"},{"start":4133.746,"end":4136.488,"text":"如果大陸的公務船要求臨檢那如果不停船快速離開大陸法規制式規定的做法是怎麼樣您了解嗎我想我剛剛提到了"},{"start":4155.398,"end":4181.59,"text":"這個基本上海巡署他們有所謂的海巡的SOP這個基本上依法業務的執行本席的問題是如果我們陸委會陸委會的職責就是要去了解對岸而且保障我們目的是要主管機關也要了解我現在沒問你保障我們台灣人民的安全權益特別在像現在金下海域"},{"start":4182.45,"end":4203.675,"text":"現在傳越來越多隨時十幾艘密密麻麻的那如果我們沒有讓我們沒有研判整個的情勢你們只有批判對岸沒有研判兩岸情勢的情況下我們的漁民無所適從那大陸委會這裡也都如果碰到相關的情況"},{"start":4205.155,"end":4220.125,"text":"會不會去做溝通尤其現在兩岸升溫兩岸升溫國防部他非常緊張但陸委會完全沒有採取任何的措施去降溫所以這一塊我們要請這個邱主委"},{"start":4220.805,"end":4237.618,"text":"我們跟對岸不要繼續這樣講話我們不要不溝通不交流不協商我先講我們能夠多去溝通交流其實是在維護台灣的尊嚴也是爭取台灣民眾的權益"},{"start":4239.079,"end":4267.721,"text":"但如果一直不去其實反而是矮化我們台灣的地位好接著接著我現在在評論我再告訴你所以我從週一到週三到週四我們看到陸委會的報告感覺陸委會是沒有什麼角色跟功能沒有看到想要改善兩岸關係的一個企圖所以"},{"start":4268.562,"end":4283.393,"text":"嘴巴說這個有交流但實際上就是僵持只有立場沒有實質的作為本席看到的是這樣那包含我們台灣的藝人在大陸表態政治立場我們看了都很不捨"},{"start":4284.173,"end":4312,"text":"可是陸委會只會要求或請我們的藝人要小心這個小心那個然後告訴我們的漁民警告這個警告那個所以大陸委員會變成大陸警告委員會大陸宣誓委員會大陸議事形態委員會沒有實質作為最後本席還要再說我們的一個鄉親新竹的一個鄉親在110年11月24日他的先生在大陸過世"},{"start":4313.42,"end":4330.625,"text":"結果要把遺體火化送回來致電海基會得到的結果是兩岸完全沒有聯繫溝通的管道沒辦法幫上忙所以因為臺灣相關單位不能幫忙民眾只能靠自己花雙倍的錢本來可能只要25萬要花50萬然後最後"},{"start":4333.726,"end":4354.075,"text":"好不容易很折騰的把遺體送回來了去我們的戶政單位儲戶儲戶的時候說時間過了所以民眾感慨政府執政無能累死百姓所以我們看到我們看到陸委會跟海基會這樣子的這個沒有功能所以我們覺得"},{"start":4355.316,"end":4356.598,"text":"除非我們未來有實質的作為"},{"start":4372.202,"end":4389.23,"text":"主席給我回答第一我覺得台灣有一些人基本上對事實的是非恐怕緣起搞不清到今天為止我們的海巡海軍從來沒有進入過大陸的不管境線水或領海"},{"start":4389.91,"end":4390.15,"text":"請尊重召委"},{"start":4413.405,"end":4436.679,"text":"我剛剛說我會把你留時間就我們質詢委員這個問的問題相關問題來回答但是你剛剛沒有你剛剛的他剛剛是說是不是要裁撤你們陸委會或是要合併對對不起好不好那所以你剛剛回答的是說不是你們業務範圍的你不便在這邊回答所以你剛剛回答的也不是你業務範圍之內的事情好不好謝謝主委"},{"start":4439.215,"end":4439.395,"text":"羅致強委員質詢"},{"start":4466.092,"end":4469.114,"text":"主席有請邱主委我們有請邱主委謝謝中華民國憲法是災難請問這句話誰講的我沒有特別記住應該是有人講過吧你身為民進黨的閣員連賴清德總統當選人的話你都不記得啊"},{"start":4494.518,"end":4501.544,"text":"中華民國憲法是災難就是賴清德講的賴清德總統當選講的裝傻沒關係來沒關係沒關係你連賴清德總統的金句名言都出了主席暫停時間不要打斷我"},{"start":4515.598,"end":4523.843,"text":"我們請這個主委耐心的聽完我們這個質詢他會讓我跟他有時間要有回應的我們會讓您在你的優惠範圍之內回答好不好謝謝我們互相尊重感謝您邱主委謝謝"},{"start":4533.376,"end":4558.94,"text":"中華民國憲法是災難請問邱泰山主委你認不認同賴清德這句話我想蔡總統大概在2016年520就職的時候就已經講過了你認不認同我問的不是蔡英文不是賴清德您認不認同因為我不知道他的邏輯是甚麼你叫我去評斷一個我不知道他的邏輯中華民國憲法是災難哪一個中文字你看不懂不是"},{"start":4559.62,"end":4577.625,"text":"我想要講出這樣的一個結論一定有他的邏輯思維啊那我不知道他的邏輯思維謝謝您啊顯然我們的邱主委也不敢附送賴清德總統當選的金句名我非常擔心啊像你這樣的態度怎麼配合賴清德總統未來施政我是蔡總統的陸委會主委沒關係你是民進黨的閣員吧現在還是蔡總統啊現在主席是誰"},{"start":4589.025,"end":4593.909,"text":"中華民國憲法不是災難啦沒錯吧中華民國憲法不是災難你也答不出來那我問你如果會是不是個災難如果會是不是個災難"},{"start":4619.395,"end":4644.373,"text":"陸委會是不是災難?陸委會不會是災難阿非常好陸委會是根據什麼的法律所產生的單位?就是中華民國憲法所以呢我告訴你今天我欣賞我們邱太三主委他也知道賴清德這句話是嚴重的羞辱中華民國所以你連負受的勇氣都不敢主席時間暫停"},{"start":4647.423,"end":4651.127,"text":"我還沒有問問題你一直插話幹什麼沒有你已經下結論了我要先教他一下憲法程序問題中華民國憲法徵修條文第二條第三款的後段是什麼你告訴我沒辦法啦中華民國憲法是災難你不懂嘛"},{"start":4671.633,"end":4681.84,"text":"官員有接受立法委員質詢的義務沒有說你可以插話中華民國憲法規定的是規定的是你要答詢答詢前提是我要問問題我問的問題我沒問問題你可以回答嗎"},{"start":4695.909,"end":4695.929,"text":"暫停會議"},{"start":4718.74,"end":4730.587,"text":"謝謝我們會委員謝謝我們剛剛那個我們的質詢委員就說他希望他問您的時候您再回答當中不要插話我想這是最基本的禮貌好不好可不可以好會給你好嗎謝謝不要插話"},{"start":4735.55,"end":4735.751,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4753.171,"end":4771.596,"text":"我問你中華民國憲法是災難是誰說的我給你回答的機會我在問你說你認不認同中華民國憲法是災難我又給你回答的機會我在問你說陸委會是不是中華民國災難憲法下的機關我也給你回答的機會問題是我在論述我還沒問問題我在問問題的背景的時候請你不要插話"},{"start":4777.005,"end":4791.376,"text":"我想請教你齁 我跟你直接講啦 我的結論啦賴清德才是中華民國憲法的災難啦我再問你下一個問題齁陸配享受的福利遠比外配來的多請問這句話你認同嗎"},{"start":4793.87,"end":4800.338,"text":"呃基本上我不知道這些人的數字是從哪裡來的你是陸委會你是無法機關我要跟你報告我問你認不認同這句話我要報告認同不認同來陸備小送福利員比外配來的多"},{"start":4811.898,"end":4827.381,"text":"陸配享受福利遠比外配來得多?認不認同啊?很好啊,你也認為各有優勢嘛,沒有認為比較多啊?你也認為比較多啊?你認為沒有比較多啊?你知道這句話誰講的嗎?這一句話是陳建仁院長講的啊?"},{"start":4835.498,"end":4854.834,"text":"所以你打臉賴清德恭喜你又打臉了陳建仁你這個格言真的好棒棒去查去查議事記錄陳建仁在答詢的時候講的沒關係啦我再問齁請問你齁為什麼陳建仁說陸配享受福利遠比外配來的多解釋一下吧"},{"start":4855.714,"end":4880.103,"text":"第一個我想各位大家可能不太了解那些福利遠比外配多譬如說陸配的紫矣血金跟他的子女我來跟你歸納啦你聽聽看啦我聽到民進黨很多人說法因為外籍的配偶要有財力證明才能取得中華民國國籍嘛陸配不用嘛"},{"start":4881.368,"end":4903.69,"text":"是不是這個都取消了啦取消啦你也知道取消啦恭喜你打臉中嘉賓恭喜你啊中嘉賓說憑什麼外配要財力證明陸配不用啊哇你好棒喔打臉賴新人打臉陳建仁還要打臉中嘉賓好再來另外齁另外齁我會問"},{"start":4906.502,"end":4912.03,"text":"貴黨委員不斷強調陸配的一心會消耗所謂的健保資源"},{"start":4913.188,"end":4923.437,"text":"你認不認同?你不要批評我的邏輯思維,你也不要批評王帝宇的邏輯思維,你也不要批評周佳萍王帝宇的邏輯思維,我問的是你的邏輯思維!我問你啊!好啦,我告訴你,這個話是王帝宇講的啦!王帝宇講啦!"},{"start":4938.471,"end":4942.952,"text":"我們的醫療可能會嚴重衝擊啦抱歉你也打臉亡定因為你不肯正面回答這個問題我直接跟你講你再不答不出來我真的覺得陸培可以踩車陸培醫青啊一年幾個名額啊"},{"start":4960.803,"end":4982.467,"text":"幾個名額啊現在有排序按照那個先後的登記60個名額都答不出來講那麼長的漏漏騰騰的前提後語你擺明在消耗委員的時間嘛我也懂你的質詢答詢技術請問6年這個每年60個人請問現在排隊排多少人"},{"start":4985.282,"end":5001.341,"text":"連這個都答不出來 上千人啊對啊 幾千人啊 請問您幾千人消耗多少年要申請到多少年 才能把幾千人全部都消耗完我問你喔 六年喔 數學問題啦陸配六年"},{"start":5005.953,"end":5025.086,"text":"每年60人改成4年每年60人排隊幾千人請問會增加一清的消耗健保嗎後面那個部分我先回答你前面的部分我不用我要你回答這個這個政策不是我們實驗暫停實驗暫停我要回答你60個名額的這個政策嘛"},{"start":5028.53,"end":5029.691,"text":"這個民格的設定不是在我們設定的在之前就設定的"},{"start":5057.438,"end":5058.559,"text":"講完了沒有?講完了沒有?"},{"start":5081.633,"end":5084.894,"text":"數學問題等6年一年60個人排隊幾千人改成等4年一年60個人排隊幾千人健保資源會一位醫卿來增加負擔嗎"},{"start":5105.334,"end":5105.675,"text":"打臉別人感謝以上"},{"start":5114.591,"end":5119.754,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員執行那好我跟你 沒關係 周主委我現在給你時間就是一分鐘的時間剛剛就你想回答的憲法的問題還有你剛剛其實已經回答了"},{"start":5137.25,"end":5157.3,"text":"好所以不是召委不給你時間我要給你但是其他委員好非常謝謝謝謝謝謝主委我本來是要給你時間回答但是在場有民進黨的委員說不回答了好OK謝謝"},{"start":5160.316,"end":5162.476,"text":"打斷思維的 連在場的人思維都打亂了"},{"start":5189.445,"end":5194.007,"text":"謝謝主席齁 我們請邱主委好 我們請邱主委 謝謝主委辛苦了齁 這個這個掐頭去尾的這種丟問題不給回答的方法 老實說應該你剛剛還能夠回答我是蠻敬佩的啦 因為我在下面準備諮詢稿我已經整個亂掉了我不知道他剛剛自己要問什麼他都亂掉了所以你剛剛還可以回答我蠻敬佩的啦"},{"start":5216.474,"end":5222.219,"text":"這個如果立法委員質詢當然是我們的天職阿但是如果立法委員的談話齁都只有謾罵或者是只有丟問題丟了就跑我看依然沒有人要做中華民國的官員了啦對啦阿好啦我現在也是在整理我的思維啦"},{"start":5236.637,"end":5237.698,"text":"昨天晚上習近平發表談話了"},{"start":5254.236,"end":5274.66,"text":"昨天在備詢的時候主委你說我現在還無法下論斷當時是在回答我們高級委員的時候你說李強的報告刪除和平統一和平兩個字的時候你說你們還沒有辦法下論斷那現在昨天晚上習近平講話啦那現在你有沒有辦法告訴我們你有什麼看法"},{"start":5275.6,"end":5301.318,"text":"第一個是這樣因為當時我還沒有完整的看完李強縱使他很多人關注到他掃掉所謂和平統一其實他前面那句話是希望能夠和平發展最後才所謂的完成祖國的統一所以他在完成祖國的統一掃掉和平但是他在前面那句話其實已經講希望雙方能夠和平發展那這個是第一個李強的部分但是各位都知道現在"},{"start":5302.319,"end":5317.835,"text":"全中國大陸整個共產黨的領導他是以黨領政所以最後還是要由習主席總書記去做拍板定言那他在下團組在福建的部分他已經做了這樣的一個說明跟指示了所以我想這個爭議已經"},{"start":5319.901,"end":5347.825,"text":"主委你現在的講法其實是跟我等一下要問的其實都是同一個脈絡就是你其實是帶著善意的眼光在看對方是我們台灣一直一直就是用善意的角度在跟希望可以跟中國往來互動喔我們是希望往來互動的喔但是老實講我自己的觀察是這樣啦事實上連昨天的紐約時報都已經說了這個取消總理記者會就是中國關上了最後一扇小窗"},{"start":5348.385,"end":5369.883,"text":"意思是說中國從今以後就更不透明更封閉了因為過往我們大家都知道中國的所有的會議都是已經決定好方向然後才開始在那邊照章演出啊那好比我有個總理記者會就算你知道他期間要問什麼問題但你還是至少可以演一下嘛至少我可以在中間插幾個問題那他現在連這個對外的記者會都沒有了所以外媒一致的評價是中國越來越封閉"},{"start":5374.267,"end":5386.496,"text":"對我們而言的影響是什麼我們的影響是民主的威脅會更大啊因為民主的呈現就是多元的聲音包括像你看剛剛前面那個質詢的和我現在和我們等一下講的每個人意見都不一樣就同一個終極配偶的入籍台灣的這個議題我們每個人10個人可能會有11個意見這就是台灣這就是民主嘛可是中國永遠都只有一種聲音啊"},{"start":5397.523,"end":5397.683,"text":"民主之惡"},{"start":5427.483,"end":5454.117,"text":"但是反而變得多錯啊我覺得這樣很可惜 非常的可惜這是我的論點啦那我們就回來像我剛剛就看你的報告M503講很多了啦跟昨天差很多那我們今天現在來講這個大家都關心的這個中國籍配偶入籍台灣的案主委你能不能夠用最短的狀況來描述一下中國籍配偶要入籍台灣有哪些程序"},{"start":5456.414,"end":5468.9,"text":"基本上當然他結婚之後呢他可以申請來台灣團聚團聚之後就可以說開始進入流程嘛軍居留之後就可以長期居留長期居留之後才有所謂定居所以你看其實我們這邊有很多嘛有好多個關卡我們把每一個關卡的話就用一個黑點點這樣拉起來的話1234中國籍配偶取得身份證的程序有4個關卡"},{"start":5479.926,"end":5496.773,"text":"外配 因為我們台灣特殊國情的狀況我們把所有的外籍配偶又區分為中國籍配偶和中國籍以外的統稱為外配所以在本屆我們會稱之為中配跟外配中配是四個關卡 你看外配要取得身份證有幾個黑點"},{"start":5498.234,"end":5519.726,"text":"太多了吧 這個一看數學問題嘛剛剛不是一直在問數學問題嗎 主委上面有幾個黑點下面有幾個黑點數學問題差很多吧 這個關卡就差很多個啊不管是條件 不管是期限中國籍配偶跟外國籍配偶要取得身份證的關卡從數字就不一樣多條件也不一樣"},{"start":5520.706,"end":5546.018,"text":"那我們剛剛其實這幾天坊間已經幫我們做出了非常多的表格齁這包括了包括了這個欸我們還可以再考一個啦來來來我們下一個下一個下一張圖片主委你看一下這張考卷這張考卷第一問題一中華民國總統是由誰直接投票選舉產生的一中華民國自由地區全體人民二立法委員三直轄縣市長答案是什麼"},{"start":5549.478,"end":5572.189,"text":"一二三四五你覺得這張考卷是在考什麼這不是在考公職委員這張考卷是我們的外籍配偶規劃考試要去考的耶可是這個也不對嗎老實講全世界大部分的國家在你要申請該國國籍規劃考試的時候都有像這樣的筆試"},{"start":5573.49,"end":5589.327,"text":"表彰你對該國的瞭解你對語言的認知已經進入該國生活水平的狀況對不對那甚至有些國家還有口試阿所以這個跟大家都一樣嘛好這是外配阿中配要不要中配不用阿中配不用這個考試阿"},{"start":5592.554,"end":5592.934,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5607.788,"end":5622.445,"text":"最重要因為時代不同我們這個外配中配入籍台灣制度已經推很久了嘛所以依據時間的不同其實大家著重的重點不一樣你知道現在外籍配最看重的條件是哪一件嗎要不要放棄國籍"},{"start":5625.987,"end":5645.098,"text":"他們現在不管任何國家不管中國不管是越南泰國任何國家啦要決定申請要不要申請中華民國身份證也就是取得我國國籍的這一個項目裡面他們考量最大是什麼是考量要不要放棄他的某國國籍啊"},{"start":5647.131,"end":5662.058,"text":"對阿因為現在其他國家東南亞甚至我們常說東南亞他們的國家的經濟水平等等也都越來越好那我為什麼要放棄我的母國國籍差別很大可是誰不用考慮要不要放棄國籍中國籍配偶不用考慮阿"},{"start":5663.134,"end":5691.179,"text":"他只要放棄戶籍就好啦所以剛剛在這裡其他的委員有新住民的委員在說的除了年限 申請年限說中配希望比照外配之外他其實沒有說出口的就是外配也希望比照中配我可以不用放棄國籍啊但是全世界非常多的國家也是是這樣狀況不要說別的中華人民共和國的國籍法第8條就規定中國不允許雙重國籍的啊不是這樣嗎"},{"start":5692.847,"end":5716.548,"text":"不是這樣嗎?中國不允許雙重國籍嗎?對啊那我們呢?所以你覺得到目前為止我們中配和外配的規劃制度你認為如何?基本上我想我要再誠懇的跟委員還有各委員會報告這樣的一個議題呢真的會是攀躲它的盒子它會讓中配跟外配還有其他的"},{"start":5717.388,"end":5723.012,"text":"會有更多的比較進來這一比就比不完啊所以我說這個真的是要比較利弊得失啦不要把這個變成陸配變成是一個國人而且會而且據我的了解我去調的資料我去了解了以後其實我們的外配是10年到8年平均是6.5年所謂60個名額外配是一個都沒有啊一個都沒有啊他要投資一名才可以啊"},{"start":5746.427,"end":5764.666,"text":"所以這個問題很大我們是希望能夠比較利弊得失所以在我剛剛一開始也報告了就是說在101年其實馬政府的時候他就提出了草案但是105又再度提出結果兩次還是都沒有通過所以說他真的需要社會的共識需要比"},{"start":5765.327,"end":5791.424,"text":"不要因為這樣子造成更多的混亂我完全同意這個都可以討論任何制度國家政策都可以討論但是需要有全民共識我完全贊同所以我必須用今天的時間再另外提出一點跟社會討論的部分也聽你的答案現在在野黨在主張這個議題的時候除了剛剛的公平性之外另外一個就是主張說因為我們要向全球搶人才所以人才日期條件要放寬請問你認為搶人才跟本件有關聯性嗎"},{"start":5793.103,"end":5819.134,"text":"沒有吧今天我們這題在討論的是配偶搶人才怎麼會用婚姻來做討論呢我們搶人才我們有我們國發會的這種金庫啊的人才的專案等等啊其實是相當多的嘛所以我覺得所有的議題都可以討論但不應該混為一談而且優劣利益應該要站在一起並且把我們已經提出的善意向社會各界具體的表述那大家來看嘛"},{"start":5820.334,"end":5821.374,"text":"我請先請那個邱主委"},{"start":5849.633,"end":5850.514,"text":"有請邱主委主委我程旭剛剛的這個蘇委員剛剛的問題其實啊"},{"start":5863.948,"end":5886.188,"text":"這個規劃這什麼的問題啊齁我只問一個就是啊我們有很多東南亞的僑生來台灣念書對不對對沒有錯我亞洲大學就很多對那他也不是齁如果我們台灣的年輕人跟我們的東南亞的華人結婚他規劃台灣的國籍的程序跟路配有沒有一樣"},{"start":5886.969,"end":5913.059,"text":"當然不一樣了有沒有一樣這個外配跟陸配是不一樣的不一樣嘛對不對那他是華人喔他是華人我說的是東南亞的華人來台灣念書的很多我們以前還有華僑高中還有什麼特別對這些我們的華僑以前講的華僑那些可能台僑或什麼那我不管他是華人"},{"start":5914.383,"end":5917.204,"text":"如果是東南亞不管哪一個國家我們的華人跟我們的台灣人結婚"},{"start":5943.885,"end":5950.63,"text":"他的規劃跟陸培是不一樣欸對不對這樣的話對他們是不是很不公平啊"},{"start":5951.607,"end":5974.845,"text":"所以感謝委員我確實誠懇的呼籲這個問題真的是稍微大家再溝通一下因為這個利弊得失如果一掀出來的話反而是造成社會上更大的風波所以我們也為什麼說我們陸委會還是審慎保留原因也在這裡因為這個無視起風波真的是潘朵拉的盒子"},{"start":5975.649,"end":5986.801,"text":"對啦除了潘朵拉的盒子之外我覺得很多事情台灣你要在國際上讓人家看到要公平如果說你的條件是一致我覺得這些華人"},{"start":5989.036,"end":6010.138,"text":"你你你把他你也他也是跟其他外配一樣啊這這人家的全全世界怎麼看台灣齁我覺得這個我們要要考慮另外啊昨天啊欸應該是不是3月3月6號啊我們陸委會有公布一個復路就學你不能不知道的八件事這個很早就有了"},{"start":6011.079,"end":6012.14,"text":"每年都會有啦每年都會有啦齁"},{"start":6023.599,"end":6048.699,"text":"所以我想要在這邊請教一下主委目前大概有多少學生附中我們知道嗎?有統計嗎?估算上是這樣子因為過去陸方也有一些統計但是後來他們也不再做統計但是我們從最近大概幾個報導跟幾個資料上來推算那我們這邊教育部大概也有一些基本的估算我們一年大概"},{"start":6049.62,"end":6054.042,"text":"主委中國都對外宣稱我們每年有好幾千人去那邊就學你先聽我講完很多人但我不知道"},{"start":6071.508,"end":6076.233,"text":"但是根據我們教育部的統計應屆高中畢業生附中就學每年大概300人"},{"start":6083.464,"end":6102.109,"text":"每年這是教育部的資料啦每年大概300人那我知道我們附中念書的有可能是我們有台商的子女或什麼在那邊嘛那個不一樣嘛但如果就教育部說每年大概300個人這是教育部的資料啦"},{"start":6103.689,"end":6117.076,"text":"阿跟中國宣傳的每年好幾千人欸這個差很多欸包委員因為有的是大學畢業他去念碩士班或研究所啦那不是只有高中生而已對我知道但"},{"start":6118.157,"end":6139.802,"text":"去那研究所的有好幾...這個300個人而已喔那有好幾千人嗎我覺得這個齁不是要考試的問題我是覺得這個數字也要正確也要讓我們台灣的學子知道那這個到底是...他一直宣傳好幾千人好像去那邊很好啊"},{"start":6140.382,"end":6169.093,"text":"然後就業呢然後還要給你優待阿什麼的阿就畫一個很圓滿的願景給你阿對不對那就是要吸收台灣的人才阿阿然後把台灣人去那邊就業什麼的阿然後到時候有一些你也知道在中國不管哪裡都有思想的讓你慢慢的阿對啊都有思想的問題阿阿所以我覺得這個必須要讓我們的青年學子知道"},{"start":6170.234,"end":6179.367,"text":"數字是多少啦我覺得我們來跟教育部再看怎麼樣的方式包括海基會其實他們也有關心台商那個台生的這個小組"},{"start":6180.82,"end":6207.11,"text":"對阿所以我覺得這個要啦齁不然你看阿他們有實施愛國主義教育法等等的然後還有那到時候他們如果說念完大學要再去國外要繼續留學深造這個利弊得失我覺得要讓我們的年輕人知道這一點啦阿不然齁這個訊息錯誤的話齁我覺得是不好啦齁好這一點可能是要麻煩你們啦齁那"},{"start":6210.644,"end":6215.249,"text":"還有一個我還是要請教一下這一個他們的山中全會是不是都還沒召開我說中國的中國的山中全會"},{"start":6228.55,"end":6248.92,"text":"基本上我們也一直持續在觀察很奇怪到現在都還沒有召開所以這也會影響到我們對他兩會到底報告的內容會有什麼樣的重點第二個人事的問題會不會來積極的注意這個都有一點連動所以我們都在持續在觀察當中"},{"start":6250.918,"end":6268.088,"text":"對啦我為什麼要特別請教這個我覺得這個應該不是只有我們台灣會關心應該是全世界在關心這個是非常不尋常的非常不尋常的連總理的中外記者會取消然後連什麼這一連串的不尋常的我覺得"},{"start":6270.282,"end":6290.757,"text":"他們的怎麼樣我們當然超不上但我們要注意這種些微的這些怪怪的地方在哪裡那我覺得事出必有因有這麼奇怪的動作我覺得我相信你們可能也如果主委說你已經有注意到了我只是要說就是說"},{"start":6291.998,"end":6318.528,"text":"有奇怪的不尋常的動作發生我們可能要提早因應有什麼的我覺得這個可能是全世界關注的我覺得這個大家要小心一點我再跟委員做一個補充其實另外有一個他們的法律的修正才是大概就可以看出未來的一些端倪他這個所謂國務院的組織法的修改裡面有一條是說要接受黨的領導"},{"start":6321.069,"end":6341.264,"text":"事項領導所以很顯然習他不只是黨而已他連國務院他都想要介入這也連動到剛剛您有提到注意到的也就是說為什麼總理李強的記者會也被取消掉了因為恐怕他們所有的政策都是他一人派定你不能隨便詮釋"},{"start":6342.825,"end":6342.925,"text":"解釋了"},{"start":6369.151,"end":6375.595,"text":"好謝謝張宏祿委員的質詢謝謝謝謝也謝謝主委謝謝繼續我們請劉許廷委員來質詢我們等一下投影片好不好謝謝好啦好這個有請陸委會主委邱戴珊還有這個海基會董事長李大維李董事長劉仁豪"},{"start":6405.154,"end":6410.985,"text":"謝謝主席,兩位早安先看一下照片吧"},{"start":6412.092,"end":6435.968,"text":"這位是誰解答一下看起來這個李大輝董事長反應比較快喔主委應該也知道吧這個很重要好不好對外聯絡部沒錯有一個講出單位一個講出名字那是不錯的對阿這個前陣子媒體盛傳他有可能會接掌這個中國大陸這邊的這個外交的一把手"},{"start":6437.389,"end":6454.302,"text":"也講說可能會在中共兩會的時候來做宣布在外媒的詮釋上來講這可能是對中美關係有比較大的影響因為相對王毅來講他可能是一個相對溫和的在各大媒體的解讀上是這樣但是兩會好像已經稍微告一段落"},{"start":6454.962,"end":6473.636,"text":"但這樣子的人事發布並沒有出現感覺中國大陸對外的人事布局沒有太大的變化我們一開始先開放一點我想請問兩位怎麼解讀這樣子的人事安排對於美中關係的變化是什麼一個人30秒好不好我們時間有限"},{"start":6474.636,"end":6495.58,"text":"基本上剛剛有提到大概中國大陸他們的人事雖然最終是要在人大確定但是呢他們原則上以黨領政所以在三中全會我們本來以為他會對未來的經濟政策跟他的人事的佈局三中全會會先開完那再交給人大來做處理這一次沒有說話確實是有一點值得我們後續要"},{"start":6501.602,"end":6526.309,"text":"李大為董事長怎麼詮釋這樣的事情報告業務委員因為海基會的執掌並沒有掌管這個人事的部分我聽聽評估我想劉建超先生他是一個很資深的外交官在過去普遍大家認為他的姿態比較柔軟所以說外媒是採取一個比較樂觀的態度希望他不要再比較戰狼"},{"start":6527.748,"end":6551.654,"text":"所以在這樣子的狀況落空的情況之下這兩位對於這件事情的政治意涵怎麼解讀中國大陸接下來在對外政策上面繼續強硬嗎還是有可能有改變的契機我想委員大家很清楚大概美中才是一個關鍵所在那從去年的舊金山會議之後呢那雙方就希望說能夠建立一個一定階層的這樣的一個工作聯繫匯報那加上"},{"start":6554.776,"end":6571.757,"text":"今年是美國總統的大選大選 敏感中國應該是對於美國的整體的情勢會有比較審慎的處理我們看他最近的態度上面雙方都希望建立工作的對話層級能夠持續不斷以避免意外的出現"},{"start":6572.543,"end":6589.602,"text":"李道遠董事長對於這樣的一個布局這樣的一個走向你是樂觀還是悲觀會不會順利就是中美之間你覺得是會升溫還是會低檔在台灣中華民國外交官是沒有悲觀的權利很好這個回答我願意同意但是呢我們也想到這個最可能壞的這個狀況"},{"start":6592.267,"end":6618.783,"text":"因為局勢的變化為什麼要先從中美關係來切入就是因為大的局勢變化當然會影響我們兩岸關係那我要再問一下再追問一下但時間實在是有點限下一張投影片來這個美國國務卿布林肯本來這一樣是外媒在1月的時候開始去傳可能布林肯要來訪中但有可能就定在春季甚至大家會延伸可能有再一次的所謂的派息會但看起來喔這個兩位覺得成局的機會大嗎"},{"start":6621.415,"end":6644.249,"text":"這我沒有辦法回答那我問李董事長你覺得咧我不能以董事長的身份回答這個問題啊但是啊這個布林肯啊不好意思這個李董事長您今天來這邊的身份是就是沒有問題的我要問的是評估啊不會我問的是評估你可以說私底下跟他回答"},{"start":6644.409,"end":6652.511,"text":"你現在在立法院你不是個人的身份抱歉我提醒你董事長這個我不是要問我們的官方立場但是我要了解我們官方對於中美政治走向的評估我們今天提這樣的質詢的用意是這樣所以您覺得評估是這個有機會中美之間稍微和緩一點所以這個局有可能成還是你覺得恐怕我們應該要審慎一點再觀察"},{"start":6668.914,"end":6684.222,"text":"我想基本上我們是希望看到他們關係走到希望看到關係和緩好謝謝這個喔去談這件事就是因為我剛剛所講的中美關係會影響未來的兩岸關係今天是業務報告我們大家談一些大方向的事情2024的兩岸關係啊"},{"start":6686.911,"end":6712.878,"text":"我希望聽到像李大維這樣李大維董事長這樣子的回答因為兩岸關係目前我們所看到的各種跡象來看其實是山雨欲來從金門海域的局勢升高ECFA取消關稅優惠到我們的團客復入的轉彎感覺沒有樂觀的本錢那當然這個是民進黨政府的政治決策這是你們的執政的方向那我當然就要問一下接下來一些細節上的處理"},{"start":6714.358,"end":6732.772,"text":"邱主委還記得我們在禮拜一的質詢的時候我請你我問了三個問題請你書面答覆嘛你這個到現在書面都還沒有回來是速度是有點慢的我要先講一下金門撞船案的後續啦兩岸是不是有這樣子的默契然後第二個是默契出現起義的時候有沒有處理的機制你今天就直接回答我好了"},{"start":6734.145,"end":6762.842,"text":"現在看起來這個禁限制水域的狀況是被破壞掉的請問遇到這樣子的狀況的時候我們處置的方式是什麼其實那天我想我跟管主委大概有回應了那基本上就是我們對於所謂禁限制水域的執法我們有一套的SOP那這個SOP海巡署我不是問你執法嘛我那天就講了你當然不負責執法但是問題是你負責的是跟對岸的溝通嘛對不對你現在遇到這樣子局勢升溫的情況下我們是透過哪一條管道來處理"},{"start":6764.222,"end":6783.733,"text":"兩個層面其實那天那個周美武署長他大概有提到其實過去兩岸在海上執法的部分大概過去恐怕有30次以上的共同打擊犯罪海上的救助那這個都是兩岸的海巡單位他們本來就有進行我想那天周美武署長應該有跟你報告你不要把問題推給海巡我的問題是你現在作為陸委會你現在跟他溝通面對局勢升溫你透過哪一條管道表達了什麼樣的立場"},{"start":6790.057,"end":6801.248,"text":"你是走降溫呢還是乾脆我們就捍衛我們的立場有什麼降溫的方向但是你對於能夠順利降溫你有多少把握這我想一個銅板敲不響"},{"start":6802.313,"end":6824.067,"text":"所以現在你想降溫對方不想降溫的意思喔我們在等待對方因為談判的過程中當然各有所堅持也各有一些進展但是呢最後有一些他們可能認為有政治敏感或者是其他敏感所以你給這題的答案叫一個巴掌拍不響嘛對不對你希望降溫但是對結果沒有把握當然你有多大把握可以順利降溫然後這個是可以善良"},{"start":6831.332,"end":6854.666,"text":"我們也都持續在關注對海峽的一些反應這一個題目第二個題目是ECFA這個我請李大偉董事長來回答畢竟當初簽的時候還是用海基海協的方式來簽這個1月的時候其實去年的時候他就說要宣布終止12項的優惠關稅並且講說會研究其他項次的取消這當然對台灣的產業來講也許會造成一些的衝擊"},{"start":6857.788,"end":6883.042,"text":"請問李道遠董事長你的評估今年有沒有可能就發生在今年除了這12項以外剩下的項次會被取消如果有可能被取消的話哪一些項次會優先被取消事實上ECFA是互利互惠的不是單方面的也就是說是你取消了以後也可能造成的後果對於台商甚至於對於外商的各種連鎖反應"},{"start":6886.283,"end":6901.07,"text":"以你的評估來講會不會有這樣的狀況我認為陸方會非常的審慎處理這個案子不會憑著一兩個原因就做一個決定所以覺得今年應該不會剩下的項目取消嗎我還是審慎的樂觀"},{"start":6902.19,"end":6921.895,"text":"審慎樂觀好 謝謝本席在這邊要提出這樣的關係的原因是因為如果今天不管是陸委會主委或者是海基會董事長當然就是面對兩岸溝通的第一線你們對於政治局勢的掌握跟政治局勢的判斷跟預判會影響我們中央政府其他部會處理這些事情的具體方式"},{"start":6922.575,"end":6949.544,"text":"所以兩方面的判斷其實是很重要的當你們樂觀你們認為會降溫的時候那大家政府相關的配套就會往這裡對焦但是萬一沒有做到的時候你可能會那個我寧願希望在這樣子的議事堂我們就聽到實話如果中午可能會升溫你乾脆早一點講有可能會升溫我們的關稅優惠有可能如果繼續被取消的話你就提早講至少讓我們政府的其他部會做提早的因應這是本期今天質詢的意義第三個是團客賦入這我跟邱太三主委昨天也講了"},{"start":6950.925,"end":6966.819,"text":"熱臉貼冷屁股這個就是一個很不好的例子嘛對不對因為你當然可以講說啊這個金門的問題是海巡要負責N法問題經濟部要負責團客附路的問題交通部負責可是關鍵是這些跟兩岸相關的跟兩岸的局勢有關兩岸局勢就你們負責嘛"},{"start":6969.061,"end":6986.588,"text":"兩岸局勢你掌握不好轉彎或什麼的時候其實就影響了其他部位的執行績效然後再進一步影響其他產業我們現在在這個地方提質詢2024的兩岸關係本期個人是表達有一點悲觀剛剛我們談中美關係為什麼我先講劉建超為什麼我們提布林肯"},{"start":6987.188,"end":7003.24,"text":"因為看起來本來世界所期待的中美的低檔讓局勢趨於穩定也是我們李大維董事長希望的這樣子的局勢從實際上的發展看起來好像沒有那麼順利嘛劉建超被認定鴿派的人並沒有接任外資部的一把手"},{"start":7004.24,"end":7026.619,"text":"本來希望布林肯訪路現在看起來中國姿態擺得非常高看起來中國大陸會用強硬的單邊主義來處理全世界的局勢也會用相對強硬升溫的方式來處理兩岸的問題所以我希望兩位雖然大家心裡都希望審慎樂觀但是我要提醒未來的政府"},{"start":7027.259,"end":7054.682,"text":"可能要做局勢升溫的全面準備所以今天在這個地方提這個質詢希望我當然希望我們的這個預警不要成真但是如果不幸成真當初大家的預觀希望樂觀希望降溫的狀況沒有發生的時候我不希望我們的政府再發生像團客這樣的事情是本來樂觀預期然後後來滿臉逗話的狀況絕對不能再發生我寧願你們提早做好準備這樣可以嗎"},{"start":7055.602,"end":7055.782,"text":"黃婕委員質詢結束"},{"start":7083.629,"end":7109.017,"text":"好那我們請邱主委有請邱主委好那好謝謝主席因為其實最近我的服務處接到非常多的電話然後包括說地方上的里長也都紛紛來跟我表達說因為最近大家在討論這個中退入籍縮短的事情其實大家都很有反應然後大家其實都蠻擔心的"},{"start":7109.617,"end":7134.921,"text":"那這個擔心其實來自幾個層面第一個是其實最近大家在討論的健保那這個其實當然也有健保署也有說過他們有做過他們整體的評估了就是說如果年長者來這邊繳少用多的情況可能會有爭議那也會有公平性的疑慮那另外一部分還有包括對於民主跟國安的疑慮這個也是很多民眾來跟我反映的"},{"start":7135.541,"end":7156.959,"text":"然後他們很希望說我們陸委會是不是在這件事情上面可以有個態度有個立場然後來把這件事情跟大家講清楚否則大家在這種疑慮當中對於台灣的未來其實是非常擔憂的所以我想要藉這個機會來請教一下主委首先第一個可以幫我放我的比較表格嗎有嗎"},{"start":7162.703,"end":7179.006,"text":"暫停時間請助理麻煩處理一下好那當然因為大家知道說其實中國籍的配偶跟外籍的配偶的依據的法源不同一個是兩岸人民關係條例那外配的依據是國籍法這個是某法的不同"},{"start":7179.867,"end":7202.717,"text":"那因為大家都認為說如果我們要一起討論那就是國籍法跟兩岸人民關係條例一起來討論這樣才公平那這個是我做的比較的表格我想要問一下說如果我們真的要一步一步來討論公平性的話除了現在大家說的年限不同請問中配跟外配在取得身份證的條件上目前還有什麼不同可不可以請主委簡單說明"},{"start":7204.314,"end":7229.703,"text":"基本上委員很用心大概把一般坊間大概或說一般老百姓所關注的這樣的一個差異性已經做了這樣的一個列表那其實事實上可能還有很多不同的面向也都必須要去注意所以我覺得這個是一個利弊得失可能要思考清楚再來做這樣的一個推動所以我想院長大概也在院會裡面"},{"start":7230.724,"end":7236.022,"text":"也講說目前我們還在中整各界的意見那沒有暫時還沒有修法的這樣計畫"},{"start":7237.708,"end":7243.592,"text":"這其實是我想要來督促一下陸委會的就是說你們暫時沒有這樣的計畫但是其實已經有立委提案了然後也送案了那這個是如果我們陸委會都沒有相關的對策這樣是可以的嗎那當然沒關係你先等我講完我們一步一步來討論啦就是真的如果要談公平要談所有新住民的人權那當然我也是一個非常倡議人權要公平然後非常在乎人權的"},{"start":7268.188,"end":7295.547,"text":"民意代表那所以我也很希望說如果真的可以我們就務實的一步一步來討論所以首先我想要請教第一步國籍的部分那其實這張表格也寫得很清楚目前中國籍是不需要放棄中國的國籍那外籍的配偶一定要先放棄原有的國籍甚至是成為無戶籍的國民一陣子那在這種狀態之下接下來才有辦法拿到台灣的身份證的"},{"start":7296.388,"end":7320.921,"text":"所以我想要問如果真的我們要比照國籍法的話是不是有機會來要求中國籍放棄中國的配偶放棄中國籍再拿到台灣的身份證我想一下問一下這樣實務上是可行的嗎這個可能會讓整個的法定的流程又要再重新做調整那這個恐怕就知識體大"},{"start":7322.542,"end":7341.73,"text":"知事體大所以是說這個有辦法從南海人民關係條例裡面來進行修法嗎到底因為委員大家也知道我們在憲法的生修條例上面在所謂的定位上面本來就把不是國與國的關係嗎對那這樣的一個處理上面又怎麼樣所以如果要的話要進行修憲嗎"},{"start":7344.351,"end":7371.478,"text":"是這樣子這個問題就會比較複雜啦所以就是我們認為大家是不是在是好沒有關係因為確實也很多民眾在問說如果中國籍的配偶沒有辦法放棄他們的國籍的話那我們可以怎麼樣透過修法的程序來讓大家清楚的知道那我希望藉由這個機會讓民眾知道說接下來如果可能要面臨的不只是修兩岸人民關係條例然後包括要修憲等等的進程"},{"start":7373.078,"end":7397.26,"text":"那當然我覺得還有另外一種可行的方式是其實可以比較國外的做法例如美國例如澳洲美國做法是什麼呢就是你入籍的時候必須要有一個入籍的宣誓那宣誓的內容包括說我必須要效忠國家我必須要捍衛國家我必須要在國家有需要的時候跟大家一起站在第一線包括軍事上等等"},{"start":7398.081,"end":7422.038,"text":"那這個是他們入籍的宣誓的宣誓詞裡頭寫到的那甚至是澳洲還有入籍的就的入籍儀式必須要去到儀式的現場那是不是有機會就是如果中配他們也可以來就是使用這個就是入籍的儀式並且就是宣誓說我們效忠台灣這是有可能的嗎"},{"start":7423.699,"end":7449.207,"text":"當然我想這個都是整體的配套的一些考量那我們目前陸委會所這個工作的重點方向就是說在他的在台灣的生活工作或者是社會福利上面我們都可以充分的一個照顧那以避免這種講白了真的比較正式性的這種意涵的這種程序或或者是儀式的恐怕這個要在大家求的共識"},{"start":7450.491,"end":7477.059,"text":"這個是我就是想要請主委可以再更積極一點的部分因為說實在其實在你們的報告裡面有寫到說去年中國已經修訂他們新的這個反間諜法那大家不知道也在這邊跟大家報告一下去年中國新修訂的這個反間諜法他們是把這個間諜的行為更擴大然後變得更籠統而且效力是數級既往的什麼意思呢就是你非常有可能無端入罪"},{"start":7477.919,"end":7492.793,"text":"那甚至是我們在報告裡面有寫到啊就是我們台灣級的要出入進中國的時候他們對台灣人的盤查上升到兩倍就因為這個反間諜法甚至是你他會查你的通訊手機是不是有批判中共那在這麼入"},{"start":7494.614,"end":7511.646,"text":"要出入進中國越來越風險越來越高的情況下我們非常是不是會有相關的疑慮這個我覺得必須要正式的去面對而不是說我們避免政治性的爭議啦尤其是現在他們在反分裂國家法以及反間諜法之下"},{"start":7512.466,"end":7512.646,"text":"入籍考試"},{"start":7529.002,"end":7529.382,"text":"臺灣幾年一次選舉公民義務違和"},{"start":7547.588,"end":7560.195,"text":"當然我們都很希望陸配來台灣很快的能夠融入台灣民主法治跟憲政這樣的一個生活跟政治的期待所以在過去大法官也認為說如果期限可以讓他延長一點那融入更久一點那這個也許可能就會有這個跟我們國民同樣的這樣的一個憲政思維"},{"start":7575.623,"end":7576.064,"text":"那最後其實大家都有講到說因為外"},{"start":7590.805,"end":7611.306,"text":"外配入籍是可以4年然後希望中配可以比照那其實如果真的去看這個條文裡面如果同樣是要住183天的話中配反而是4加2是6年外配是3加5反而是8年也就是說在同樣的標準之下外配反而是需要更多的時間才可以拿到身份證是這樣子嗎"},{"start":7614.295,"end":7638.314,"text":"沒有啦 我想感謝您注意到這些相關的差異啦那我們是總結來看是不希望在這個時候把這個議題拿來做不相干的比較這沒有不相干啦 這個其實就是入籍的條件盡量可以趨於一致而已我認為這個也是它就是針對你們說的生活面的保障還有所謂"},{"start":7638.834,"end":7643.755,"text":"我希望所有的條件大家可以一個一個拿來比包括說外籍的配偶他們入籍要經過9個程序中國籍的配偶只需要經過6個程序可以一併的討論啦那當然剛剛健保部分講過了其實也不需要講其實如果這個中級的配偶入籍縮短最直接的影響就是可以更早投票"},{"start":7666.619,"end":7690.343,"text":"那更早投票會有什麼風險或疑慮呢當然我也不希望把外配一貫的來看待但是其實在目前出版上我可以分享兩本書一個是無聲的入侵中國因素在澳洲另外一個是大熊貓的綠爪中國如何滲透加拿大那這個其實裡面就宣示到中國他的魔爪如何在滲透民主的政權那北京的"},{"start":7690.643,"end":7690.843,"text":"謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":7711.013,"end":7711.534,"text":"我們會努力"},{"start":7942.911,"end":7949.078,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會,我們請王美惠委員,最可愛的王美惠委員再持續,謝謝持續,謝謝,感謝我們邱主委和董事長好,有請邱主委跟李董事長,謝謝"},{"start":7966.142,"end":7976.504,"text":"主委董事長在剛才講到現在的時候我才看到董事長不管是什麼人之前他都認真為台灣來泡麵因為這個我們要來討論一下官方就是怎樣"},{"start":7982.666,"end":7990.21,"text":"這樣才是對的,不管是什麼人,就是用心去讓臺灣人民需要的事情做得好在這,主委我先跟你探討一下,我們先講過"},{"start":7999.275,"end":8003.857,"text":"大陸委員會在工作報告裏面本來是有說和平和統一因為當時我什麼的本事請你看因為你是單位寬寬相扣的因為我們也了解說現在目前阿強那邊對台灣是什麼樣的情形在這裏面張主委也有說到說"},{"start":8026.394,"end":8030.336,"text":"和平和統一是因為不同的人職責所以來改變,因為我覺得在小英做伯爵,要靠賴清德來帶領台灣向前走,在這方面我是要請教"},{"start":8046.425,"end":8046.805,"text":"委員我先補充一下"},{"start":8071.175,"end":8078.917,"text":"對台灣不一樣的接種者,我認為他們的抗拒重點是促銅及販毒的兩種差別。第二就是,像報告委員說的,當時李強,國務院總理的工作報告裡面,大家不看前面那一句,現在是持續要推動和平發展。"},{"start":8097.643,"end":8100.526,"text":"主委他這次要讓我們台灣人緊張一下大家說民進黨會走會戰爭他現在若有和平站起來會更加激動其實他是中立的但是最重要的是中國是"},{"start":8118.525,"end":8124.611,"text":"總統說話這麼順暢．所以習近平在說他就說和平同仁本身是要跟你說啊今天那邊說話是沒主意的喔像我們最近稍微找到我們的臉書發生差不多大陣子全世界大家都覺得很緊張的結果才突突"},{"start":8143.607,"end":8143.787,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8173.547,"end":8173.728,"text":"請主委講一下"},{"start":8186.59,"end":8201.398,"text":"當然他也有對台灣推行一些所謂融合措施的優惠方案例如他要跟福建建立融合示範區主委這件事最危險本來要跟你說說得說到現在都沒做完"},{"start":8208.022,"end":8211.106,"text":"你看他在中間會有多少錢,還有多少的量化,可以融合發展的地方,你覺得有沒有錢,有資格做些什麼"},{"start":8223.163,"end":8231.387,"text":"董事長,我認為他們多風格,這單位有說他們有很多人,但他們的素質當然是我們也要進一步的更認真了解,我們想說以前平潭這個地方,到底是怎樣運作到什麼程度,我們有委託一些人來做進一步的了解,這我們也要進一步的了解"},{"start":8247.893,"end":8258.466,"text":"不要吵架不要吵架我們也要努力幫他好了不然這段時間這幾天你看到的有二公二姨女女女女女女女女女女女女女女女女女女女女女女女女女女女女女"},{"start":8267.857,"end":8268.377,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":8289.662,"end":8290.142,"text":"說你這樣是違反香港共同貿易協定的邏輯"},{"start":8308.61,"end":8318.556,"text":"都要看台灣對阿強阿什麼態度阿強阿對台灣什麼態度啦是各自都要看的都要評論的啦在這裏面我們是還要跟你探討一下我們陸森在二月初的開始還可以來加入我們的健保嘛在這裏面完全為之陸森來到台灣最緊要兩千人嘛"},{"start":8336.306,"end":8344.25,"text":"有八百萬人已經加入檢報,來,我要來你請教,因為這檢報不是你的職權啊,但是陸生來我們台灣的生活和種種的問題,你如果想說,是怎樣還會有這麼多人沒有加入,是什麼原因,來,當時地方的諸位你知道嗎?"},{"start":8361.892,"end":8364.553,"text":"因為我們當初檢報檢報的規定就是要來台灣居留"},{"start":8378.26,"end":8383.305,"text":"沒有啦,你簡單的說我...要檢報,要去檢報的資格,我...我...不是我們本國人啦,我也要說...不是本國人...本國人比外人...在台灣居留超過6個月,一直可以檢報但是中國人來台灣的時候,在當年政府開放陸生來台的時候"},{"start":8403.542,"end":8405.563,"text":"在裡面有種種的原因基中就是你剛才說的這個原因是沒有"},{"start":8425.683,"end":8440.227,"text":"來啦來一開始是因為這個名詞沒講所以檢保署就是說我們不報告的規定是要在台灣居留因為我感覺這是我們台灣人的回憶啦也是要照顧他們這裡的孩子來台灣的車大家是互相的啦你看到回來的時候你有去思考台灣孩子去"},{"start":8453.51,"end":8471.496,"text":"大陸阿基隆阿特赤的時候﹐他對那些孩子的照顧﹐包括你的網站﹐在本席收了解﹐你跟教會說﹐阿基隆阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿"},{"start":8474.838,"end":8482.643,"text":"所以說你們這個委員長 要去注意啦那為了正當的告誡 到現在已經是三月了都沒有改過 我也要補充一下 要注意什麼一個 對不對因為他們去到 我們不是反對他去討債 是有時候要去注意的方法啦因為本身 要跟你說的時候 我們就是有了解有什麼 我們也要補充"},{"start":8503.775,"end":8523.825,"text":"我們台灣孩子去那裡踏車或是在那裡爸爸媽媽做生意的在那裡踏車任何發生的事情都有可能再來我請問我們董事長董事長你下令營也幾位未來也要幾位三定位時本身所了解你自己是在中部南部"},{"start":8528.968,"end":8534.032,"text":"都沒幾位啦,因為在這,我要讓董事長跟先辦理員說,嘉義縣嘉義市,南部是一個好地方,有機文化是非常好,所有運盲"},{"start":8545.18,"end":8559.064,"text":"可以去到南部嘉義市尤其嘉義縣有一個阿里山嘉義市是非常豐富的認證名所以你們要納入下去因為我剛才看你們的"},{"start":8560.885,"end":8583.017,"text":"委員報告時．端蓋剉海鮮有剉到牙齒．是撼賣還是怎樣．未來這三位都沒有在南部的牙齒．所以我覺得你們要先去處理．要平衡一下．讓你們了解台灣的自由民主的國家．委員報告一下第一天就算牙齒"},{"start":8589.42,"end":8590.701,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請陸委主委我們有請邱主委"},{"start":8623.118,"end":8639.798,"text":"主委早安早所以平常有沒有在用那個網路搜尋一些資料基本上會啦也用Google查過Google地圖嗎所以你知道路爾會在Google上評分值幾分嗎1.8不過Google很好他把你用兩顆星謝謝啦"},{"start":8642.762,"end":8665.531,"text":"主委其實你在看了裡面的內容之後才發現其實民眾對陸委會很多的不滿 很多的憤慨那這個會後再請主委去了解不過可以看到 主委替林明做事情比較實在民眾一定有需求才會去尋求相關政府的資源跟協助 是的"},{"start":8667.237,"end":8687.837,"text":"本席在這八年裡面發現其實我們入會這八年都來這快八年的時間對台流政策有三宗籌中、聚中跟抵中跟主委來剛好主委早上有提到農業的問題我們就拿鳳梨釋迦這件事情來談就好"},{"start":8690.066,"end":8707.733,"text":"我們去年臺東縣政府臺東的釋迦重新輸往中國大陸那連我們農業部在質詢的時候都說齁他不會放棄大陸的市場我想要請問主委去年一開始恢復輸出中國大陸的時候陸委會的說法還記得嗎你還可以同時我們會說什麼"},{"start":8711.009,"end":8738.395,"text":"我們當然希望說兩岸的所有的貿易最好不要有其他的因素能夠遵照過去的模式去處理所有的農漁產品我們大概都是這樣的一個態度跟主委報告當時陸委會說這一次的台中輸出釋迦的作為是選擇性恢復這樣的行為對其他縣市的農民來講是歧視的對待"},{"start":8739.67,"end":8757.796,"text":"以多年前對臺政治性的採購如出一策利用經濟利益對臺灣進行分化及統戰而且批評陸方這種成就的政策操作手法只會使兩岸的民眾心理隔閡漸行漸遠我們陸夥的台立的部長陳俊濟也表示說我們樂見臺灣優良的水果外銷也強調不會放棄中國的市場"},{"start":8767.877,"end":8782.527,"text":"希望透過海峽兩岸檢疫平台重啟對話,定定符合國際檢驗標準,而不是由地方政府代行。這是本席在總質詢時問的問題。選擇性恢復台中市下的做法,對台灣其他管治的農民是歧視對待。這個事情你認同嗎?"},{"start":8791.755,"end":8792.856,"text":"大陸對台灣的貿易政策"},{"start":8824.44,"end":8840.7,"text":"兩千三百八十一萬四百九十公斤然後臺東縣政府收成的負面施加是兩千三百三十五萬六千零三十七公斤他佔了全臺的百分之九十八高盛的社區都是台東對來的選擇性"},{"start":8843.874,"end":8864.091,"text":"沒有啦 委員 我想委員應該很清楚嘛那他為什麼要特別選定台東因為以水果來看嘛台東占了九成的這樣的一個生產性但是其他縣市也有啊九成都是台東所以是選擇台東比較好台東占九成我大概可以理解可以接受但是問題其他縣市還是有啊"},{"start":8866.305,"end":8867.806,"text":"好主委好主委好主委好主委"},{"start":8886.278,"end":8899.451,"text":"這個希望透過海峽兩岸協議平台重啟對話不是由台東縣政府不是由地方來待會之前主委江文部長是不是會指責我們陸委會指責陸委會施責為什麼是由台東縣政府跟對岸來談而不是兩岸來對談"},{"start":8903.515,"end":8917.308,"text":"道路基本上應該是要跟我們其實不是跟陸委會有關於農產品的檢疫雙方簽了一個協議他其實是由對岸的海關總署這個協議應該是一個法委的協議不是不是不是"},{"start":8920.091,"end":8925.556,"text":"我們兩岸各種的事務有簽了大概26個協議如果是屬於ECFA的有ECFA的處理機制如果是檢疫的有檢疫的處理機制"},{"start":8941.189,"end":8951.348,"text":"就是說按照26項我再跟委員做提供那個26項協議他各有他的處理機制那原則上是由全責機關有一個對口"},{"start":8954.811,"end":8983.337,"text":"我們的權責機關會發文給對岸那對岸大概也會發文給我們對 最終結果還是台東縣政府去談嗎那是因為他選擇台東縣政府那我們有去找他們談過嗎我們有表達希望能夠透過 阿剛才問題出在德維結果後來最簡單的問題就是說從衛生文檢驗的粉屆合同這件事情就從這部分解決而已從國大辦的說法當然我們知道他是在政治上的意涵"},{"start":8984.017,"end":8992.44,"text":"但我們還是還是強烈從一開始講的我們還是希望能夠脫過我們有協議的機制來解決我們的貿易爭端好很好我們這個問題到先到這邊我繼續講的就是說主委你主委之前擔過我們的檢察官對不對對所以我們去年選舉期間不是有很多民眾到大陸去遊玩嗎對"},{"start":9008.612,"end":9014.239,"text":"那回來之後很多人都被帶去徵訊嘛那後來我們這個陳翠被判刑有多少件這個恐怕要問法務部因為這件事情我現在不是當法務部長"},{"start":9025.794,"end":9049.762,"text":"那我的了解當時的緣起應該是法務部的某個單位他們發覺有這個所謂招待的這種情勢出現回來之後成案應該不多啦我記得應該不多多的話應該新聞會報了很多啦所以這個我們再自己了解一下我只是想要表達的是說如果台灣人去大陸玩回來就要被徵訊這個是不是劇終另外"},{"start":9053.646,"end":9066.518,"text":"如果因為這樣子我也建議啦我們今天我們是要訂定一個臺灣人到大陸旅遊指南你可以去哪邊玩不能去哪邊玩你可以跟誰接觸不能去哪邊接觸不然就乾脆直接宣佈我們不要再去大陸了這樣是不是比較好"},{"start":9067.673,"end":9072.995,"text":"因為憲法保障人民遷徙移動的自由我們會提醒復入的時候要注意回來就被調查要去徵訊我只是去大陸玩回來被徵訊"},{"start":9092.859,"end":9109.209,"text":"主委應該是最了解中國大陸的人那主委你還曾經擔任過民進黨兩岸協議監督條例小組召集人所以我們在這次的報告裡面沒有看到要進行兩岸協議監督條例的立法"},{"start":9110.277,"end":9128.937,"text":"每次問到一些問題就說我們已經有修法了我想我們修法的部分是政治協議不是攸關民生經濟那跟主委講你會不會繼續推動相關的地方降低民生經濟的問題恐怕不是只有單純政治只要有政治性的影響的協議都包括在裡面"},{"start":9129.377,"end":9130.357,"text":"本協議兼施兩岸互動要公開透明"},{"start":9151.887,"end":9151.927,"text":"主席"},{"start":9177.429,"end":9183.471,"text":"好 謝謝建民委員質詢 謝謝主委 謝謝先請建民委員暫待一下主席位置好嗎 謝謝您 謝謝好 現在我們請高金素美召集委員的發言"},{"start":9204.684,"end":9207.606,"text":"謝謝召委我們現在請邱主委謝謝我們請邱主委發言好謝謝主委金門撞船事件到現在已經快一個月了我們看到昨天的消息是雙方談判是破裂了請問您清楚知道我們談判幾次時間地點到底有哪一些談判代表然後陸委會的角色是什麼嗎可以簡單回答嗎"},{"start":9234.399,"end":9248.786,"text":"談過了15次也比較破裂因為雙方有達到也幾個項目有一兩個項目可能已經有合資了但是有其他的項目大概在程序法定的程序跟所謂名詞上所以您是樂觀的"},{"start":9253.028,"end":9255.77,"text":"我們能夠用能力或證據達成共識其實也是您深處統籌處理大陸事務組委"},{"start":9273.982,"end":9274.903,"text":"周英明回答我們大家說這個只是一個個案"},{"start":9293.326,"end":9307.258,"text":"你又講了兩岸的溝通管道其實很順暢似乎感覺我沒有講順暢還是有溝通管道好的好溝通管道那我就問你這個溝通管道到底是什麼是誰然後是不是有效"},{"start":9309.52,"end":9329.075,"text":"呃當然委員你要講有效的沒有 我說是誰那基本上我剛剛有提到溝通管道是誰不是市民立委會還是海基會還是還有更神秘的人沒有沒有不是我要整個的回答第一個剛剛提到了我們過去三十幾年來你講太多了之後我現在就問你兩個問題就請你下關問題我剛剛問你到底是誰你就說是誰就好了好嗎"},{"start":9338.442,"end":9352.029,"text":"還是整個行政院最後整理出一個談判的小組所以就是海委會的副署長在去做談判我們國家我們的政府沒有派代表在後面有一個統籌"},{"start":9353.709,"end":9379.795,"text":"我剛剛提到了就是說他有分事務性的個案性的所以你的意思是說談判的代表裡面每一個人都在行政院的所屬的那個單位的代表都在沒有跟他不相關的他不需要在嘛比如說像這一次那有哪一些相關的他原則上大概就是你們一直談到的國家安全跟法律那些人有參加嗎你說什麼你一直在談到的國家的安全或者是法律上的問題我們的國安會有人參加嗎"},{"start":9380.595,"end":9405.203,"text":"他們只是他們是一個所謂的政策的單位不是好啦謝謝好啦好啦我們的海委會說是依法行政當然我也相信必須要依法行政但是呢他們又講了一切的證據都交給檢調了既然我們第一海巡署海委會也好在那邊回答說一直強烈說我們沒有錯然後呢又有有力的證據然後又講人道關懷怎麼講"},{"start":9408.004,"end":9426.429,"text":"我的邏輯判斷這種談判應該是十拿九穩會成功為什麼會破裂為什麼到現在還談不下來主任到底是什麼簡單回答一下就所謂的過分金的部分基本上大概比較接近了但是在名詞上面"},{"start":9426.929,"end":9431.491,"text":"沒有我說我剛剛你沒有聽清楚我的問題我說既然我們說我們沒有錯而且我們又有有利的證據因為你們說說因為海巡署在這邊回答說有利的證據都交給了我們的檢調嘛既然交給了檢調在談判的現場為什麼不把這些東西拿出來然後來談判有利於大家不要再有這麼多的紛爭嗎對"},{"start":9448.66,"end":9456.184,"text":"海巡署講他有利,陸方不一定會接受嗎?沒有啊,他有航跡軌跡圖,然後又有碰撞啊,然後這個碰撞是事實啊那這個就要看海巡署為什麼在談判的時候他不願意提出這個問題,是不是檢察官有做什麼樣的指示嗎?好,謝謝您的回答,好,您的回答也是交給剪掉了,然後可能在談判,所以在談判的時候這些證據就拿不出來,就不拿出來就是了"},{"start":9477.216,"end":9477.897,"text":"海巡署對於政務的程序"},{"start":9497.537,"end":9524.174,"text":"謝謝您好按照我們剛剛談到這些這個這個撞船事件我們看到我們的政府說法好像不太一樣所以呢我待會就要談幾個不太一樣的例子第一個我們來看到就是2月20號我們的陳院長他口頭施政報告的時候他就針對兩岸議題提到即使面對威脅台灣始終會堅持民主多元尊重人權的生活方式那麼在這一次你的業務報告裡面也提到了"},{"start":9524.394,"end":9525.735,"text":"首先我要肯定您的立場還有陳院長的方針"},{"start":9553.638,"end":9569.337,"text":"陳院長一直高喊著人權可是3月1號我們大家都看到了在陸配身份證取得的年限比照外配這一件事情上他又改口了他說知識體大保持保留的態度"},{"start":9570.538,"end":9581.048,"text":"那麼最令人意外的是什麼你知道嗎陸配身份證取得的年限還有比照外配的議題是2020年的時候執政黨也就是民進黨你們提出的我們看一下2022年你們提交行政院提交的相關人權報告裡面你們就怎麼樣落實陸配人權有寫到"},{"start":9591.858,"end":9592.498,"text":"提醒您"},{"start":9621.169,"end":9627.016,"text":"一直到這次大選結束前民進黨的立委在立法院都是絕大多數請問一下這份報告裡面當時陸委會有參與其中嗎"},{"start":9633.013,"end":9656.638,"text":"有好那我要就要問您了當時當時是這樣現在又改口到底是政府給社會大眾或者是給國際上的假資料還是如同麥玉珍委員說的因為2020年當時候是大選他們這些外配也好陸配也好在大選當中被大家搶來搶去請問是哪一個"},{"start":9657.658,"end":9664.58,"text":"我跟委員做一個歷史的回顧報告不要再歷史回顧你剛剛說2020年陸委會也參與其中嘛對不對那為什麼陸委會跟現在你們的看法又不一樣當時2020年的時候就不是知識體大現在就知識體大為什麼因為這個從第一次2010年的時候就已經提出來的"},{"start":9682.335,"end":9688.479,"text":"國民黨政府在101年我只要告訴你為什麼在立法院還是沒有辦法就是因為爭議大爭議大那2020年再大票在大選的時候你們也會出來因為我當然可以理解你擔心立法院但是政府會拿出外配一定來做比較"},{"start":9703.188,"end":9712.71,"text":"好那我現在再跟你講我現在再跟你講剛剛民進黨立委有提出非常多我認為我認為這個都是假消息啦第一外界裡面有提出很多問題我舉三個例子第一個是國安問題請問一下如果是國安問題的話我們有任何任何一個數據可以支持陸配比起外配更容易違反所謂的相關法律嗎如果沒有這個就是假議題對不對好第二個我要講的是健保濫用的問題剛剛有人講"},{"start":9731.573,"end":9759.351,"text":"碳清的陸配的家屬會濫用健保很多人都講目前依照我們的法規陸配的家屬如果要居留6個月以上他才可以使用健保嘛但是我們兩岸人民關係條例的限制是他居留不可以待過6個月超過6個月啊所以我認為這也是假議題啊然後又講陸配70歲的家屬可以有直接定居所以他們會浪費健保"},{"start":9760.491,"end":9769.797,"text":"現在剛剛看到數據的你也說現在每年我們限制60位而已就是70歲或過70歲以上的家屬這樣子一來的話要怎麼樣浪費健保所以健保問題他也是一個假議題啊然後他也提到一個就是剛剛講的陸配不用拋棄國籍而外配是要但是呢陸配必須要放棄他的戶籍現在是如此嘛對不對實質上其實也等同外配放棄國籍這樣子的一個理論"},{"start":9789.369,"end":9803.771,"text":"所以這些民進黨立委他覺得不公平為什麼在當時只剩8年這當中尤其2020年你們也提到的這個人權的部分你們為什麼不修改這些東西呢為什麼要現在造成這麼大的爭議"},{"start":9805.853,"end":9816.062,"text":"委員我想外界各有各的關注點我們沒有辦法評論但是我們總結我們總結就是剛剛過去的經驗101年的草案也好或105年國民黨時代提出的草案也好它為什麼最後還是沒有過那就是因為很多的問題會糾結在一起就像我剛剛提到的它是一個潘朵大的盒子"},{"start":9829.386,"end":9832.289,"text":"知事體大,所以本席認為有非常多兩岸的問題,不要用情緒發言,不要用意識形容"},{"start":9848.524,"end":9848.764,"text":"民進黨人權理念"},{"start":9866.556,"end":9887.802,"text":"同時呢也針對2024年民進黨對於這個人權的理念的跳票感到非常的錯愕我覺得這個又是一個非常明顯蔡英文她在任期宣布又在蔡英文任期裡面沒有辦法完成的案例的一個現實的條件好謝謝您今天的回答謝謝好謝謝我們財經召委也謝謝我們協助委"},{"start":9899.787,"end":9901.189,"text":"謝謝我們請陸委會邱主委"},{"start":9925.679,"end":9926.384,"text":"有請邱主委"},{"start":9930.628,"end":9953.307,"text":"謝謝主委確實這個陸配跟以及其他外配到底這個入籍中華民國國籍需要多少時間真的需要整體性的考量那每一位選區選出來的委員他其實身上都有非常非常多的案例比如說曾經協助過相關的案例那認為怎麼樣可以去改善那或者是我舉兩個案例我一個同學"},{"start":9956.59,"end":9982.692,"text":"他娶了他們去英國留學之後回來跟一個香港女孩結婚結婚的時候才發現當然後來才知道這位在香港長大的女孩就是我同學的老婆她其實是英國籍所以說香港籍跟英國籍要進要入中華民國戶籍的標準就不一樣了對不對好另外一個我的同學嫁到美國"},{"start":9983.732,"end":9998.394,"text":"那他先生在美國工作那進來台灣當然也有討論過小朋友入籍的問題等等的那是不是難度就更大了有更多的問題有一個讓人很感動的例子齁"},{"start":9999.517,"end":10015.008,"text":"一個年輕人那他們也是國外念書之後他跟他老婆結婚那老婆在成都在成都工作那先生也到成都到我們臺灣某大廠也一起工作在那裡生了小孩"},{"start":10015.808,"end":10034.135,"text":"但是包含這個阿公啦他也很堅持說你在小孩在中國出生那要算中國籍嗎那如果不要算中國籍的話他要怎麼樣回來台灣規劃台灣的戶籍而且又遇到疫情期間你知道多辛苦"},{"start":10034.855,"end":10059.214,"text":"在疫情期間呢他就在中國的這個出生證明拿到之後還拿一個未入籍中國的證明拿這個未入籍的中國的證明再拿著一個臨時出入臨時出入海關的這個通行證一次進一次出而且在他短短的這個年假裡面回來台灣父親已經被除籍了先申請入附籍"},{"start":10059.975,"end":10061.883,"text":"然後再來趕快來辦小孩的這個戶籍然後再來趕快把小孩辦護照"},{"start":10067.086,"end":10093.413,"text":"當然這個臺包鎮這個時間我們沒有辦法去協助臺包鎮還是等到他們回到中國去工作的時候在當地的這個當位去辦理臺包鎮未來這一個臺灣 臺灣嬰仔才可以讓他們這樣帶回來臺灣算臺灣人這種種的故事非常多吼包含這個兩岸之間的這些故事包含這個到底這些外國其他的國籍的人"},{"start":10094.333,"end":10119.207,"text":"進入臺灣戶籍的這一些過程裡面其實有非常多的故事但是重點是一個就是我剛剛聽了很多委員做了這個比較之後那邱主委這邊的看法還是一樣就是本國陸籍跟外國籍跟其他國籍我們必須要一併的來做考量來主委這一些通盤的考量當然在這邊可能講不完"},{"start":10119.807,"end":10146.894,"text":"但是確實牽涉到第一個國安第二個健保的議題是必須要不是誰說的對但是我們也把這些問題拿出來讓大家來參考一下讓國人來評斷一下到底這些問題是什麼首先國安反滲透法國安法等等的這些問題確實會讓所有的陸配在台灣會有一點點政治上的一些"},{"start":10147.994,"end":10171.38,"text":"顧忌這個是在香港已經在發生的第二個健保的議題我舉我在2019年曾經在高雄選舉的場合裡面來提出當年國民黨的委員在立法院提案修改兩岸人民關係條例第16條符合強照資格的陸級的陸配的"},{"start":10172.761,"end":10179.454,"text":"父母親可以申請來台灣使用台灣的長照的這些相關的服務等等的"},{"start":10180.189,"end":10205.048,"text":"當然國民黨的這一個案例呢他在提案之後的兩個禮拜內撤案了那我也知道現在國民黨委員也已經又提案了修改兩岸人民關係條例第17條並且拿來跟這個外國人要入籍台灣的外國配偶要入籍台灣的來做相關的比較那我先講我在2019年後來我被告了忘記了"},{"start":10207.523,"end":10224.018,"text":"我被告的當然我們這個臺灣我們是中華民國是法治的國家被告一定是進入司法程序有檢察官叫我去問問說當初為什麼要把這一件案子披露對方說他已經撤案了你為什麼還是要講出來我想"},{"start":10224.983,"end":10235.189,"text":"既然在立法院已經在立法院的公報上面有這個提案有這個緣由也有其他委員簽名那就需要承認這個事實你有這個提案的動機後來在"},{"start":10238.479,"end":10258.326,"text":"得到高雄地檢署的不起訴處分是在選後的3個月內高雄地檢署就給我不起訴處分不起訴處分的我在講他還是繼續告還是繼續告告到高檢署在2020年的8月4號我收到高檢署"},{"start":10260.087,"end":10287.049,"text":"不起訴處分的確定那裡面的內容是這樣子寫的就主管機關臺灣是屬兩岸條例第16條雖然規範大陸地區人民來臺所謂申請制主管機關有權有博准權限也就是剛剛其他委員講到的我們一年60位但是"},{"start":10289.056,"end":10311.527,"text":"我所擔心的就是我是被告所擔心的侵蝕健保的疑慮就是會造成侵蝕健保的疑慮所以給我不起訴處分這個是2020年8月4號我們高檢署對於這一個上一次中國國民黨要提案修改兩岸人民關係條例第16條的記錄在這裡我是當事人"},{"start":10316.069,"end":10335.897,"text":"那所以說對於目前要討論的這個我覺得不一定說走到法院或不一定等到可能下一次選舉是4年之後又有相關的法院的認證我想我們現在就詳實的對於我們在國會公開的把這些利害都說明出來"},{"start":10336.777,"end":10365.679,"text":"讓所有的國人知道修改兩岸人民關係條例的陸配的年限到底造成健保的哪一些影響或者造成國安的哪一些影響甚至我們其他新住民委員認為他們應該有哪一些權益也應該要比照兩岸人民關係條例裡面的陸配等等的我想這些都必須要拿出來做討論的最後其實邱主委在陸委會主委期間我看"},{"start":10366.223,"end":10393.94,"text":"我們不斷地在追求和平不斷地希望用和平的角度用善意的角度來跟對岸有一個溝通的方式但是我們所有遇到的沒有一件是和平的沒有一件是善意的包含金下海域我想這一個過程我們也持續地用和平的方式來跟對岸來做這些溝通跟討論希望不要升高兩岸的局勢最後請主委就"},{"start":10395.02,"end":10415.372,"text":"這個潘朵拉的盒子來評論一下到底這個陸配以及外配最大最大你認為在這一個事件裡面的修法的過程裡面我們要怎麼樣推動可以照顧到陸配而且也可以讓外配覺得我們有相同的權利"},{"start":10417.452,"end":10433.579,"text":"確實感謝委員提供一些過去的一些案例給我們做一些參考不過我要講的就是確實站在陸委會的立場我們希望能夠再凝聚社會更多的共識因為這個特別是我們最擔心的就是比較表一出來"},{"start":10435.319,"end":10438.641,"text":"陸培不是壞人,但是我們希望可以同等照顧他們"},{"start":10456.088,"end":10478.559,"text":"第二個就是說對岸我們當然都理解對岸他要軍事崛起強國那我們當然這是人家的國家政策但是如果他造成大家的緊張採取的手段又是過去所沒有的不管是武力的威脅貿易的報復什麼等等我想這個都不是一個文明國家所所有的應有的作為了"},{"start":10479.519,"end":10490.564,"text":"臺灣還是本質我們不會挑釁當然我們也不會這個現在國際最大的共識就是希望維持兩岸我想蔡總統的所謂的維持現狀這樣的一個路線基本上獲得國際很多的支持所以我想我們會秉持這樣的一個路線繼續的來維護兩岸的這樣的和平"},{"start":10500.689,"end":10519.084,"text":"當然我們也期待中國他能夠重新思考他這樣的一個對台的手法是不是真的會如他所講的希望大家能夠心靈計合能夠贏得台灣的民心我想這是對岸的領導人他自己要去做思考的好謝謝主委及國安團隊謝謝好非常謝謝李博弈委員的質詢謝謝也謝謝主委謝謝繼續我們請丁學中委員質詢"},{"start":10535.407,"end":10539.948,"text":"感謝主席我請邱主委有請邱主委這禮拜議廷都有你臨時三天每一天讓我們委員董事長對議題都非常高興的討論看得出來"},{"start":10559.472,"end":10564.974,"text":"辛苦你了,對兩天我們這個業務的一個過程,我們都在幾個月而已,今天做比較辛苦,今天有30幾個月但是今天我們看起來,我們裡面的內容也是都圍繞在這個大陸對我們的這個不善意的一個對台,對啊,我們內容都在這樣"},{"start":10589.224,"end":10593.387,"text":"我們也沒有說有去說什麼要促進交流還是建立溝通的更積極的一個作為在這要給我們主委請教一下我們應該有認同兩國的往來溝通是一件很重要的事情"},{"start":10613.24,"end":10616.062,"text":"我們現在對我們大陸這方面我們陸委會現在目前對著我們這個兩岸的局勢還有什麼比較積極的一個作為要來捐給我們兩方對外還有什麼方式"},{"start":10630.213,"end":10633.675,"text":"可以對等尊嚴互惠的狀況下 增加兩方的交流嗎?委員我剛才有向其他委員報告過其實兩方30多年來 已經有很多互動的經驗及技術包括簽到26項的協議"},{"start":10652.589,"end":10657.831,"text":"那就是過去這7、8年,坦白說相方也有一些個案發生後,有一些處理上當然一定要互相大家同時來做改觀,所以這都是一個好的經驗和善意的表達,我們希望說過去的機制如果是什麼,大家才有過去的機制,但是我看中國有時候因為你也知道台灣的選舉"},{"start":10678.857,"end":10688.048,"text":"有些期待或是希望或是心思包括最近我們也看到一些案件是要來應用所以我們就變成說一直跟對方說我的錢不要去你那裡你的錢來我這裡這樣好不好"},{"start":10693.183,"end":10694.964,"text":"這應該是都像這個溝通,真的,我們要加強兩方的溝通"},{"start":10717.952,"end":10719.273,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":10736.442,"end":10738.243,"text":"我們的生意比較積極．繼續做溝通的行為我相信主動提出我們的生意．主動來支持．來提出溝通的方針．我相信一定會達到好的結果不然像我們現在這樣．關係惡劣"},{"start":10763.959,"end":10777.847,"text":"受損的也是我們的財政我們主委也知道說我們現在這個不只是觀光集團還造成我們這個理行業者的很多損失聽說我們經常這個事件延伸出來也有說大陸最近廢棄我們的觀光資源去跟我們檢查"},{"start":10788.271,"end":10796.035,"text":"對 發聲後的第幾天因為那個時候是走在他們那邊走在他們那邊過去應該是沒有發聲過啦過去應該是沒有發聲過啦過去是我對外界去的那兩天他們也要跟我們說還是跟我們出題就是說大家互相都應該過去也沒有說會登船去檢查啦"},{"start":10816.266,"end":10824.21,"text":"有的是說我給你驅趕那個意思啦報告我委員報告其實過去有啦但是大家互相都在海邊上就處理到了啦所以這就是大家現在的關係比較後面發生出來的問題我們民眾第一線受到衝擊我們政府也需要做一些比較具體的一個對策來解決我們民眾的問題"},{"start":10843.88,"end":10850.163,"text":"我是希望說兩方的關係,我們不要說路越走越矮,包括我們台灣的一些農產品,我們的觀光、生機、海船、航空船,都去用線索而已,現在都線索而已。走這樣,大家未來的出路,會都受影響,變成是牆壁了,對啦,就請我們主委"},{"start":10872.335,"end":10895.762,"text":"講到這個問題,我們想想看有什麼比較好的方式,我們因應民眾的利益為優先來想,找看有什麼比較好的方式可以來解決。是是是,我們也一直在想,但是主要都是這樣,我們國家的安全和利益,基本上我們要先顧好,這樣。"},{"start":10897.242,"end":10901.043,"text":"其實安全是很重要的,利應也很重要,這兩項是都重要的,我們要把我們接觸到整個溝通的整個友善的關係在內,把我們收回在內,還有怎樣,我們也會影響到處理,"},{"start":10921.69,"end":10934.221,"text":"我聽到有提起宗教交流,我們中華宗教交流已經很久了,但立委會在去年會過年,很認真跟國內"},{"start":10939.622,"end":10950.869,"text":"我們的宗教團體有去辦一些見面會：說有請大家講講時講聽去大陸進行這個宗教交流：還有發佈新聞講大陸對我們國家宗教交流有這個統戰的因素"},{"start":10960.876,"end":10965.379,"text":"說有這個動作的因素,提出說要做學術、在交流、在交活動的我們國人,如果沒有說很重要的,請不要期待,希望我們有去做這個動作。"},{"start":10976.505,"end":10982.451,"text":"議員對於我們國民期待量我們都會把過去發生的一些狀況提供給我們國民瞭解第一當然因為很多發言的修改往往就會造成一些風險"},{"start":10992.059,"end":11002.487,"text":"我坦白跟委員講,我們有人要去團搞,結果被人告起因為你知道中國現在對宗教的控制,跟要求宗教一定要中國化但是問題是有的宗教,他可能會這樣嗎應該是否這樣啊,應該不是這樣,是單純啦委員你如果有什麼資料你可以給我看他我所在的,當然"},{"start":11019.91,"end":11033.233,"text":"主席就是新人就是大陸人都從大陸過來比較古的新人大陸人都從大陸過來對啊大家都會想遭遇在大陸他們會想說要回去進行一個狀況的一個交流對啊這我們在基站我們在地方基站是經常都有發生這個狀況我相信啦我相信說像我剛剛說的"},{"start":11048.206,"end":11049.567,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":11067.97,"end":11071.995,"text":"我相信我們陸委會是會去做這個其實我們也不要把我們的宗教交流想到什麼程度當然他們要過當然一定是經國委員會過有可能說只有單獨幾個要過"},{"start":11088.335,"end":11089.456,"text":"董事長列席報告"},{"start":11105.737,"end":11114.01,"text":"對領域的領地對國家的領地我非常對我們的領域都非常有主心我非常有主心甚至我我家住在芬林我家住在鳳尾我還要怎麼顧的事沒有事我就自己回家"},{"start":11121.881,"end":11122.161,"text":"繼續我們請吳祁銘召委質詢"},{"start":11153.337,"end":11154.498,"text":"有請我們的邱主委"},{"start":11180.595,"end":11185.058,"text":"主委辛苦了主委早上很多人在談論我們的陸配問題其實你說陸配跟我們的新住民大家的比較這都是要讓社會大眾大家了解其實我們也沒有歧視說"},{"start":11197.888,"end":11203.053,"text":"錄配來跟我們台灣起到國際界問題所以你要用同樣的標準社會大眾來了解說我們對中國大陸還是蠻友善的例如說我們的陸生納入健保我們說在2月1號只要學籍超過6個月已經完成註冊你也可以享用我們的老健保"},{"start":11223.711,"end":11239.168,"text":"所以說這可以說是對我們的陸生一大的保障尤其包括我記得我們前幾年都還有補助我們上海的女子學校我們的女子學校我們都有補助嘛"},{"start":11239.948,"end":11248.155,"text":"對,我們大陸有三間台商子弟學校,我們各部都有跟他們做協助,我們來幾位也有跟他們做協助所以說我們對法,我們還是秉持的非常友善,這種我們要讓社會大眾來了解說既然到了台灣,我們也是享用我們自己的健保制度,對這一點,我們跟健保局這邊都有取得聯繫嘛,進行有順利嗎?"},{"start":11269.172,"end":11276.698,"text":"有很順利的,其實是這樣,這個問題坦白說我站在我的角度來說過去我就是認為我們對於陸生其實是有一些不公平的例如健保這些東西,因為外資生有,為什麼陸生沒有這在當初,當年開放的時候,因為意見很多、雜音很多"},{"start":11291.71,"end":11306.561,"text":"對陸生的入台的定義不是寫拘留寫特別停留結果健保署說我們只有拘留才有特別停留的沒有所以我們一直沒辦法解決這個問題所以交流報告我們就想說提供商業保險幫助商業保險但這個介紹到包含的範圍當然有差嘛所以就不一定說公平"},{"start":11317.37,"end":11329.136,"text":"所以我們跟海基委員會議就想說不然這樣我們來補助他的商業保險所以我們今年開始就補助他們一年六百塊但是覺得這樣總是我們都要照顧自己的錢嘛所以我們就再去跟健保署說是不是這樣改觀所以健保署後來他們就想說用一個方法所以他如果能站得好有效證明的時候他也能把他拉進去了"},{"start":11343.863,"end":11346.404,"text":"因為我們是要保障保障他們的醫療嘛再來一點就是我們過去台灣的農產品輸完我們的電化器我們有很多檢驗的問題做成功我們很多農民"},{"start":11373.677,"end":11374.118,"text":"這不可能都要問日本人"},{"start":11391.02,"end":11398.563,"text":"但是我所了解當然我們坦白說我之前有跟中國一邊的人標誌說你這樣等於回到兩邊還有經貿的這種交流其實對你來說不一定比較好因為你逼台灣的政府一定是專銷去外國所以我們要保護動作就是說如果要專銷外國的時候"},{"start":11412.987,"end":11429.35,"text":"他第一個因為我們知道農藝產品的保存期比較長所以農委員他們就去做一個所謂兩鏈的設備及技術的提升這兩鏈的技術設備及提升本來可能一個水果可能一個月的市面上他現在變成可以兩個月三個月這樣想得有助於外銷其他國家所以這也是我們跟中國說你沒台沒市用整體的因素去做這樣對農藝品就不公平了"},{"start":11442.992,"end":11444.994,"text":"所以他們過去 他們都常常說前議有問題 但是我們去東南亞跟日本國家就沒問題所以說在這個部分 我們也是很對話這邊"},{"start":11468.436,"end":11470.438,"text":"是怎麼說我都介意我都堅持說我們陸委會以及海基會我們也要溝通一個管道的暢通是不是可以恢復說農產品的稅率對岸遺產的稅率對岸因為農民跟水產的大家都很辛苦"},{"start":11488.812,"end":11490.494,"text":"所以在這部分是你的我們對法是你的選擇單位這部分你要再加強我會來努力希望對法不要用其他的因素"},{"start":11500.114,"end":11500.394,"text":"有請李董事長"},{"start":11527.335,"end":11531.14,"text":"主委可以休息嗎?主委休息休息辛苦了辛苦了"},{"start":11534.151,"end":11559.283,"text":"吳委員好董事長我看你的經歷以前是外交部長還有駐美代表還有總統府秘書長所以你跟對岸溝通的管道應該還是有你的海基會的管道這一點你來說明一下跟吳委員報告外交就是一個化不可能為可能的藝術"},{"start":11561.064,"end":11581.938,"text":"也就是說是希望能夠劃劍為梨大家都一個和平穩定發展的一個共同的願景我想這也是海峽兩岸的決策當局都是用資深的外交官擔任彼此的對口"},{"start":11583.419,"end":11606.072,"text":"我方當然是我本人在大陸方面這個海協會就是張志軍先生他也是位非常有經驗的資深外交官所以說是我也在不同的場合一再對公開的呼籲希望雙方能夠溝通能夠交流能夠對話"},{"start":11608.435,"end":11623.465,"text":"國人對你的期待都很高因為你是一個外交部長所以你有外交的手腕相信你一定有你的管道這個應該是滿暢通的我們國人還是希望說大家能在穩定和平中台灣的發展所以對我們的董事長期望都很高謝謝我們要一起努力好不好"},{"start":11638.555,"end":11657.952,"text":"總是要打破這個僵局吧當然當然我們共同的願景大家都要和平穩定發展好謝謝謝謝董事長謝謝好謝謝謝謝齊明召委如果每一個人都能夠像你這樣子那麼互示善意的話我想兩岸就不會這樣我們今天的主委就不會這麼樣頭痛了謝謝謝謝好"},{"start":11662.196,"end":11676.123,"text":"好因為剛剛主席有這個宣布這個這個我們的勤民召委結束之後要處理臨時提案那今天因為沒有臨時提案所以這個我們繼續就開會我們請鍾嘉斌委員來做質詢謝謝好沒關係我們暫停時間我們請助理放一下他應該要這個今天播的資料謝謝"},{"start":11697.651,"end":11698.632,"text":"有請邱主委有請邱主委"},{"start":11709.158,"end":11734.545,"text":"主委好 主委好謝謝主委的關心我特別來今天跟您做一個質詢請教這個議題標題寫得很清楚那我想請教一下請問主委目前在台灣有多少中配我強調一下啦當然我是用中配啦因為我們在地方我們稱中國配您可能是陸委問你要叫陸配沒關係就用你的方式在台灣有多少中配人數基本上我們台灣大概新住民總加起來的新住民大概60萬"},{"start":11735.785,"end":11737.206,"text":"中間大概有12萬其實沒有住在台灣"},{"start":11752.193,"end":11768.106,"text":"他通常是台幹的配偶或是執行的他們就大部分長期住在大陸就像我的帳目上有36萬但是有長期定居在中國境內的大概是12萬多大概有24萬多在台灣那請問一下那這當中有多少是擁有台灣的戶籍那有多少只是持續長期居留"},{"start":11777.173,"end":11792.566,"text":"那大概有14萬的人已經拿到我們的定居身份證了那另外有10萬的人大概在三個不同的階段可能來這邊先來說團聚、提親居留或長期居留所以14萬是長期居留那不是10萬"},{"start":11794.758,"end":11818.118,"text":"14萬已經拿到定居了那14萬裡面有14萬已經定居了你的定居跟我的長期居留我怕混淆因為這兩個不一樣長期居留是定居的前身那定居是取得戶籍嘛定居才取得戶籍我是用取得戶籍我的取得戶籍就是你的定居我說的長期居留就是沒有取得戶籍是不是這樣"},{"start":11819.37,"end":11821.273,"text":"請問目前你知道台灣有多少外配嗎"},{"start":11835.059,"end":11838.523,"text":"那請問在這些外配當中中國籍以外的外配當中有多少是有戶籍又有多少是屬於長期居留"},{"start":11853.622,"end":11857.304,"text":"外配跟中配他入籍的流程你看看對不對外配呢他要入籍"},{"start":11879.335,"end":11904.577,"text":"他可以先不入籍他可以取得長期居留對不對要5年嘛是不是這樣子好那取得國籍是3年但是取得國籍呢他不見得能夠做定居還要取得戶籍才能定居對不對所以長期居留對外面來講是一個選項他如果要定居就要設法先取得國籍再來取得戶籍是不是這樣"},{"start":11905.598,"end":11933.041,"text":"很清楚啦齁我沒有誤解吧但是對中配來講呢他可以長期居留要多久要選擇長期居留要多久才能長期居留對啦我想委員你這個表應該很清楚可以看得出來就要4年嘛但是他如果要取得戶籍他沒有取得國籍的問題所以在2年他就可以取得戶籍了就可以定居了定居就是取得戶籍就可以定居那請教一下那中配來台定居會比較嚴格嗎"},{"start":11936.349,"end":11937.39,"text":"為什麼這些人選擇保留原籍沒有來入籍"},{"start":11956.516,"end":11973.083,"text":"你覺得比如說我在我常常飛越南我在飛越南的時候遇到越籍的外配他來台灣嘛帶著小孩坐飛機回越南那我就很好奇我發現說你怎麼不是拿台灣護照你拿越南護照"},{"start":11974.442,"end":11990.929,"text":"因為我知道他如果要在台灣取得台灣的國籍他就要放棄越南的國籍他就不能拿越南護照了他是拿台灣護照我說你怎麼來台灣多久了孩子這麼大了你怎麼沒有取得台灣的國籍跟戶籍拿台灣的護照他說"},{"start":11992.546,"end":12020.046,"text":"我又常常要回娘家啊我拿越南護照比較方便啊是不是這樣而且呢我這個孩子在台灣生的啊我孩子台灣一尊爸爸是台灣人他本來就有台灣的國籍但是我帶他去越南我拿越南話帶他去越南我可以幫他辦越南的國籍而且他未來如果有機會在越南念書也可以在台灣念書也可以兩邊都可以你覺得這個越南媽媽他的這樣的做法是不是很多外配的原因"},{"start":12021.622,"end":12026.947,"text":"我想一定是之一是嘛 是之一嘛就要告訴大家很多外派要選擇長期拘留"},{"start":12028.168,"end":12056.193,"text":"不選擇入國籍或取得戶籍是因為他想要保留原國的國籍保留原國的護照甚至他的孩子已經取得台灣國籍的情況下他覺得帶孩子回母國還蠻方便的這是很多外配的心聲你同意嗎同意嗎那請問一下他沒有取得台灣的戶籍跟國籍之前他如果已經在台灣長期居留了跟他取得戶籍有哪些待遇上的差別他有沒有健保"},{"start":12057.674,"end":12060.5,"text":"有健保嘛那差一張身份證差什麼"},{"start":12062.637,"end":12092.142,"text":"他就是不能投票嘛我都幫你講了嘛月配如果在台灣他沒有拿到身份他不能在台灣投票但是他放棄投票這個權利他取得維持有越南國籍跟越南護照的方便他可以帶他的小孩回去探親他可以帶他小孩回去越南國籍他有時候如果兩邊要念書他小孩在那邊也可以念書是不是這樣這是他們沒有保留原籍的原因嘛好那請問一下往下看那你覺得中配"},{"start":12093.464,"end":12111.245,"text":"是不是也是這樣?這些選擇長期拘留沒有入籍台灣的中配是不是也是這種考量?就跟岳配一樣嘛我要帶孩子回上海我還要回北京欸你要知道啊中國的一線城市的戶籍放棄了要再取得容易不容易?"},{"start":12113.494,"end":12126.684,"text":"小小的是說我知道因為在中國不同的省份你偏僻的省份你要到別一線城市其實你要取得戶籍很難他如果結婚來到台灣你要取得台灣的身份證要放棄哪裡的戶籍"},{"start":12128.789,"end":12142.977,"text":"所以我想你很清楚啦這個就是很多的複雜的東西齁外界不一定那麼清楚啦那你一掀開大家就變成不得不去做一些問題其實這個議題很特別我問過很多外配我問過很多中配"},{"start":12143.917,"end":12171.8,"text":"他們其實很多覺得說因為個人的生活選擇他為了子女他選擇他選擇長期居留他們要入台灣的國籍或者他們要入台灣的戶籍他沒有要在台灣有定居但是他的權益有沒有受損在台灣一樣有健保對不對但是中配不一樣生活工作都OK社會福利都差不多但是你要看一看非本國籍被學生的規定但是外配要來台灣入籍要怎樣要放棄國籍對不對"},{"start":12173.103,"end":12202.037,"text":"中配要不要?沒有嘛那規劃測試,外配要規劃到台灣有國籍,要不要測試?要不要?中配要不要?不用那你覺得中配來台定居比較嚴格嗎?好,往下看,因為時間快到了來,中配的待遇呢,高於外配啦,為什麼?因為外配的父母子女可以來依親,中配可不可以?沒有,說錯了,外配不可以,中配可不可以?"},{"start":12202.841,"end":12218.242,"text":"可以啦可以嘛那健保的負擔外配的父母來台灣可以有健保嗎沒有沒有阿中配呢不知道我看居留時間對啦對我也不會強拗所以只有中配可以讓他的直系血清來移清往下看"},{"start":12219.38,"end":12240,"text":"我現在說外配的配合規劃要測試除了社長有三個選擇嘛要不就選擇就學一年要不就選擇參加課程要不然就要通過測試你覺得外配通過這個方式取得台灣的入籍合不合理?這不是那個業務這是目前 都是這樣嘛那你覺得中配比賽外配是不是要通過規劃測試?"},{"start":12252.902,"end":12270.387,"text":"中配入籍後優於外配的待遇我們社會希望檢討因為現在顯然社會認為說外配的待遇比較好其實相反啊中配比較好啊那檢討啊可不可以檢討一下不要一個國家兩個待遇嘛中配跟外配待遇不一樣嘛中配是你管的嘛可不可以考慮一下檢討考慮檢討"},{"start":12273.023,"end":12294.316,"text":"我想政府院長已經已經通過了他講過了他希望能夠社會多溝通啦多溝通盡量一樣對不對好盡量一樣第二個那我就要求中配入籍可不可以比照外配通過考試可不可以評估評估一下好不好因為這是公平的問題嘛我遇到了越南媽媽跟遇到了中國媽媽為什麼越南媽媽來台灣入籍要經過測試中國媽媽不用"},{"start":12299.554,"end":12319.766,"text":"可不可以評估一下?你們評估後,把你們評估後的一個結論給我,可以嗎?好,我們來參考一下。好,謝謝。好,非常謝謝鍾嘉斌的質詢,謝謝你,謝謝諸董。諸董,我要提醒您齁,其實那個健保的問題,您剛剛應該要再講清楚,我們探親的陸配家屬,他沒有濫用健保的問題。"},{"start":12320.726,"end":12341.06,"text":"因為兩岸人民的這個關係條例限制他們居留不可以超過6個月對不對然後呢我們目前依法陸配家屬要居留6個月以上才能拿到健保嘛但是呢我們這個條例裡面是不會讓他們待的超過6個月你剛剛應該要講清楚所以健保濫用問題不是存在的問題"},{"start":12342.991,"end":12344.212,"text":"楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員不在陳婷菲、陳婷菲、陳婷菲委員不在"},{"start":12361.728,"end":12379.389,"text":"鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在張志倫張志倫張志倫委員提書面報告王宏威王宏威也是提書面不在謝一鳳謝一鳳謝一鳳委員不在"},{"start":12380.45,"end":12401.542,"text":"政政前政政前政政前委員不在林思敏林思敏林思敏委員不在邱志偉邱志偉邱志偉委員不在林俊憲林俊憲林俊憲委員不在林楚英林楚英林楚英委員不在蔡易瑜蔡易瑜蔡易瑜委員不在陳冠廷陳冠廷陳冠廷委員不在"},{"start":12402.142,"end":12427.331,"text":"登記發言的委員除了不在場之外的其餘都已經發言完畢了我們詢答結束委員張志倫還有徐宇貞他們所提出的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢還有未及答覆的部分我們請相關的單位在一週之內以書面來答覆並且要複製本會今天的會議到這裡結束我們現在散會辛苦了大家也謝謝"}]}},{"id":"15703","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15703","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd73b8a2c1b37799c1d705804c03e547953be8d109af184be4843c3f4b6d08d6015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-07","start_time":"2024-03-07T08:32:13+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:41:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14927,"委員發言時間":"08:32:13 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Home跟東森購物目前也都在導入中應該很快了但是當然大家對我們有更多的期許好比像說如果大家去看165的高風險賣場會發現那個Facebook"},{"start":1893.026,"end":1919.816,"text":"這個大型廣告平台平台也還在上面那這部分雖然目前為止都是經濟部主管但是我們也已經主動跟經濟部說經濟部也初步同意把這些大型的這個網路廣告平台也移播給我們讓我們來主管那為什麼呢就是因為我們有提一個電子簽章法的修法那也已經送到了立法院目的就是說之後大家如果再看到上面有那種投資貓蟲名人的那種廣告的話"},{"start":1920.373,"end":1939.39,"text":"那就可以運用這個電子簽章法用一個效力很強的數位簽章去進行這方面的身份確認所以他如果以後不叫這個名字就不能再打著這個名字來進行廣告那這部分我們會盡快的來跟各界說明怎麼做然後也很希望立委們支持我們的新的電子簽章法"},{"start":1940.571,"end":1953.873,"text":"除了這個就是我們自己主管的之外我們也積極的協助檢警調所以像檢警調、攬組這種詐騙的域名、一夜市的詐騙、假電商網站等等我們部成立前一年大概採不到3000件"},{"start":1954.759,"end":1971.299,"text":"我們部成立之後就加速流線化這個做法所以去年一整年就高達3萬多件所以即使你看到這種詐騙的網址點下去你只會看到一個被165扣押的這個警示聲明那這樣子的話也很有效的去阻斷這個詐騙我們再往下"},{"start":1976.848,"end":1998.486,"text":"除了剛剛提到這兩個業別之外我們也是第三方支付的主管機關第三方支付大家了解到雖然可能有上萬家在公司登記的時候說可以經營這個項目因為不是特許實際在經營的其實就那麼40幾家我們現在就是透過一個能量登錄的方式去要求他們都要去做法尊、反洗錢等等"},{"start":1998.886,"end":2022.405,"text":"的這個登錄讓我們查核如果不這樣子做或者沒有做好的話那金管會那邊就不讓他們拿到虛擬賬號所以這是一個聯防的概念那同樣遊戲點數現場遊戲業者也是我們所主管所以我們也可以看到從高峰一個月大概1200多件遊戲點數詐騙現在已經降到了200件左右也是有一個及時攔阻的聯防機制再往下一頁"},{"start":2024.028,"end":2032.093,"text":"那除此之外還有一個狀態是說大家有時候會接到這個簡訊說台水啊或台電啊、繳費啊、按什麼網址等等"},{"start":2032.774,"end":2056.848,"text":"因為這樣子的狀態我們需要從源頭來處理所以同樣的我們推出了111這個平臺目前已經78個機關透過共同供應契約以及採購接近2000萬則的額度實際發送出去大概570萬則年底大概會有一億則所以現在大家如果再看到臺水、臺電等等那從111發送你就知道那個是真的那其他的當然就是假的了再往下"},{"start":2058.403,"end":2077.033,"text":"除了剛剛提到這個數位信任防詐之外我們也負責數位網路的韌性就是受到攻擊要能夠及時回復而且從攻擊當中學習教訓所以無論是如果是海岸碰到一些問題我們透過微波衛星來備援又或者是說如果有一些地方的災害等等"},{"start":2077.573,"end":2105.831,"text":"導致三個基地台的業者有兩個或一個發生問題的話我們都透過像災難漫遊等等的方式然後也透過就是警消確定頻寬的方式來支援我們警消同仁再往下那當然我們不是只是說這個衛星通訊只用在我們自己政府的這個任性備援事實上因為我們也已經核准了包含龍華、艾克康、台亞、中華電等等的這個商用的衛星通訊的這個代理的申請"},{"start":2106.658,"end":2113.801,"text":"所以應該很快到年底我們就會看到這些他們合作的衛星公司也可以推出這些商用的解決方案再往下"},{"start":2114.98,"end":2141.95,"text":"那剛才提到災難漫遊那這邊有一個示意圖意思就是說如果發生比較嚴重的災害那導致我們三大電信有兩大都不能使用的話那至少這個防救災人員以及之後慢慢擴增到就是當地的居民他不論本來的手機是哪一個基地台他還是可以透過災難漫遊的方式能夠連線出去那在這個過程裡面當然大家可以用的頻寬會受限但是我們就好像畫一條路肩出來一樣保障頻寬"},{"start":2143.55,"end":2166.278,"text":"給消防署、警消人員等等。當然大家也了解6GHz包含Wi-Fi 6E、未來的Wi-Fi 7我們現在也都已經開放了如果是有用iPhone Pro或Pro Max的話應該這幾天是已經開通了所以我們在未來也會持續的去準備這個評估然後確保說我們跟國際的規範能夠取得一致再往下"},{"start":2168.139,"end":2179.096,"text":"除此之外我們也跟衛福部合作我們也加入了行政院的生權小組所以說在以前就是政府機關的網站、APP等等它很多是建制之後受到這個生權團體的"},{"start":2180.24,"end":2202.129,"text":"以及意見,然後才慢慢變成完整的無障礙。我們現在就讓它在建制一開始規劃的期間就能夠無障礙。大家如果有領過六千的話會看到說那是我們新的這一套設計方法做出來的那使用起來是非常的便利。那我們也把它變成公共建設所以之後未來幾年不管地方中央政府要發放現金等等的這些做法"},{"start":2202.489,"end":2223.406,"text":"就不用再從頭做建制跟測試可以直接讓我們的公共城市去使用再往下那我們剛剛提到這些做法其實國際上面都相當願意來學習那光是說我們透過全民參與來幫助我們的國科會的這個AI模型台德把它調整成更符合我們台灣當地的需求的這個做法"},{"start":2224.086,"end":2243.332,"text":"就包含OpenAI的共同創辦人：好幾組人：國際上都很希望來跟我們學習所以也因為這樣子的關係我們接到了非常非常多包含雙邊交流、國際組織以及我們所用的這些程式如果是公共程式能不能夠分享出來等等的需求也讓我們拓展了新的數位外交的做法再往下"},{"start":2245.365,"end":2264.525,"text":"當然我們也是open data以及資料自主的這個平台mydata的主管機關有很多的申辦的服務好比像說俗稱良民證的這個形式記錄之前都是要零貴清辦現在就透過線上mydata這個平台辦理然後郵寄到家等等我們協助了非常多的這個線上服務644項都能夠透過這樣的方式來達成"},{"start":2268.686,"end":2289.285,"text":"那除此之外呢大家也發現好比像說大家的這個有個叫健康數據公益運動數據公益運動數據公益平台那就是在全台灣的這些運動的這個場域等等大家如果願意捐出已經不含個資的這些數據統計數據分析讓大家能夠更容易的去找出說怎麼樣子"},{"start":2289.665,"end":2303.307,"text":"提示能狀況怎麽樣子情況的人用怎麽樣的運動比較容易達成效果達到全民運動的這個公益那我們會持續透過我們已經推出的這些指引來強化隱私然後也來促進更多這種公益的數據應用再往下"},{"start":2304.52,"end":2326.062,"text":"那剛也提到說我們已經組成了AI評測中心那從國科會的這個台德模型開始我們也會把各種語言模型的應用來確保它能夠符合我們這個就是社會所能夠接受的準確性啊無害啊等等的這些基本的要求那剛也有提到電子簽章法也是因應AI衝擊非常重要的因為現在"},{"start":2326.721,"end":2352.931,"text":"和成影音和成頁眼和成證件其實都是非常容易的事情那只有數位簽章因為當初發的時候是有一個很強的身份認證那才能夠是確保說不會這個AI換臉就很容易冒充給別人那這些聯邦的方式我們也都及時的透過我們的第三方支付等等跟金管會跟內政部跟吉寶等等這個協作的平臺只要他們這個提出具體的需求我們就提供技術上面的支援再來一下"},{"start":2354.967,"end":2375.624,"text":"除此之外,我們也透過像替代史等等的方式去確保說即使本科系不一定是資訊資管的朋友也能夠進入數位轉型的行列那已經有2400多位跨域的人才那也有190多位國際的人才那國際上面其實現在有非常多的這些數位的人才覺得台灣是他非常認同他願意"},{"start":2376.164,"end":2377.566,"text":"獲得數位領域的就業金卡。已發了261張。再往下。"},{"start":2392.406,"end":2413.537,"text":"在這個過程裏面,我們也帶動國內的這些資訊服務業者。舉例來說,像我們透過雲市集的計劃,就已經帶動超過6萬家次,大概5萬多家中小事業,尤其是比較沒有資本而去投資IT的中小事業來媒合國內的自服廠商,其實已經達到一個很好階段性的效果。"},{"start":2414.217,"end":2428.093,"text":"當然未來在實際的需求像高靈科技、長照或者是一些HIS系統等等就是醫療相關的系統我們都有跟衛福部繼續去凝聚這樣子雲市集的能量在這些垂直的場域裡面再往下"},{"start":2429.661,"end":2455.037,"text":"剛剛提到衛福部當然社家署我們也跟他們合作有個手語視訊轉譯的服務目前已經大概建制差不多完成了是一個公共城市那這個社家署之後會拿去營運就是確保說我們即時的所謂打電話給聽語障的朋友或聽語障的朋友打電話給你的這個流程能夠透過這個數位的技術很容易的來完成當然也包含高齡學習運動數據公寓這個剛剛有提過再往下"},{"start":2458.514,"end":2483.52,"text":"在資安的方面我們資通安全管理法我們的部會已經通過我們布板的草案那應該在這幾天就會送到行政院來審核那裡面非常重要的就是去確保說在重大資安事件發生的時候不會只靠那個機關的4名或2名或1名資安專職人員而是我們可以透過這個調度的方法讓所有旁邊的這些資安專職人員都能夠來支援這個重大事件"},{"start":2484.24,"end":2502.389,"text":"當然聯訪也不是只是在我們公部門裏面我們也透過資安院拓增了我們對民間的就是TW3CCL的服務的能量那我們也邀請了剛剛提到了18個國家的朋友一起來台做跨國的攻防演練那我們也爭取去參加他們國家的實地的實兵演練再往下"},{"start":2504.079,"end":2518.717,"text":"所以在這個過程裏面我們不管是攔截這個惡意的這個電子郵件或者是一些就是資安供給或者是說我們協助這些關鍵基礎設施去提升他們工業控制領域的資安防護這個都相當的有成果再往下"},{"start":2520.27,"end":2539.365,"text":"當然在資安的培訓裡面人才是非常非常重要是必不可少的那剛剛提到的這個調度其實也是一個以戰待訓的概念那包含在待遇上面我們也特別去有這個增值加級然後在人才的來源上面我們也跟考試院協調已經成功的增設了資安考科再往下"},{"start":2540.818,"end":2562.026,"text":"最後跟大家分享就是說我們的基本概念叫做全民數位韌性那在這個社會發展上面我們不能夠因為數位發展所以就把比較弱勢的或比較小型的事業拋在後面使所有人都要一起數位轉型那在這個過程裡面我們就透過我們的數位產業署去培養大家值得信任的像剛剛提到的電子簽章這些雲端服務"},{"start":2562.506,"end":2580.931,"text":"等等的這些新型的發展因為數位是跨國界的所以只要發展出來解決實際的社會問題在全世界就有商機在這個過程裏面當然這個抵禦、資安的威脅我們做了非常多事來保證不會出事這個部分就是我們資安署的工作以上是我們的業務報告謝謝大家的聆聽"},{"start":2587.044,"end":2602.871,"text":"接著報告第二個那我先補充介紹在場的委員廖謙祥委員黃建豪委員林國成委員請部長繼續報告"},{"start":2604.36,"end":2619.481,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝趙薇委員先進那我就接著報告我們就是112年度去年的出國預算辦理成效還有我們今年度的預期效應那書面相信大家都收到了所以我就是就書面做一個簡要的說明"},{"start":2620.841,"end":2640.69,"text":"大家知道我們數位部已成立全世界就是跟數位有關係的我們就要開始建立聯絡特別是在資安聯防上面所以我們去年的很重要的成效就是去確保說這些有紅隊藍隊這個能量的國家透過他們國家派代表隊或者他們的民間或者他們的法人等等"},{"start":2641.09,"end":2656.935,"text":"都能夠來跟我們進行演訓這個是最重要的那我們能夠用線上的大概有18項大概都是用線上辦理但是特別是在資安工坊以及在經貿談判上面基本上對方就會說一定要實體那這個時候我們就會去編列出國的預算"},{"start":2658.055,"end":2675.431,"text":"那剛剛提到美國捷克等等18個國家來台灣這個他們也要變出國預算來進行工房演練那我們也邀請了包含愛沙尼亞、澳洲、阿爾巴尼亞等等來跟我們分享他們最新的資安的做法跟政策那在這個過程裡面其實資安產業也非常重要"},{"start":2675.911,"end":2697.569,"text":"自然產業只要跟國際的標準接軌我們這邊自然產業的廠商就可以很容易賣到國外的市場所以就包含這些標準像CNMC標準所在的美國國家標準技術局我們已經來回互訪了相當多次那這些自然的大廠我們也是第一時間在他們推動什麼標準的時候我們也加入這個標準的討論的程序這個也是非常重要"},{"start":2698.729,"end":2724.899,"text":"剛剛提到衛星的部分因為我們非常需要低軌衛星在我們對外海欄碰到狀況的時候能夠及時的切換所以我就親自到英國拜會OneWeb因為OneWeb的特別股黃金股是在英國政府手上所以我們就要跟他談包含供應鏈安全等等的這些做法我們也很成功的談到了現在不只是對於我們自己的任性需求也包含商用的需求OneWeb應該今年年底前可以來滿足"},{"start":2726.339,"end":2755.525,"text":"除此之外當然剛剛提到電商自服業者帶著150家到各個國家去進行這個交流以及去確保說國際上面現在對於隱私保護的這個強度那像英國大概都很願意跟我們就這個隱私保護數位成長等等這種跨境的數據傳輸來進行談判那這部分其實已經是在台銀ETP的這個談判進程裏面了那除此之外當然大家也非常關心說為什麼臺灣作為一個高度開放的民主國家"},{"start":2756.093,"end":2776.156,"text":"大家都非常擔心這個AI的偽造去破壞社會的互信然後會打亂這個選舉的公信力等等那在臺灣似乎到目前為止是有克服這些問題那我們這些克服的方法的分享我們也透過像自由線上聯盟就是包含美國國務卿彬肯等等各國的這些外交跟數位首長"},{"start":2776.736,"end":2791.966,"text":"我們也是實體的見面來分享這些做法除此之外當然我們也跟一些新興的友好的國家好像說立陶宛等等實際上面測試了電子簽章的互簽互認等等這個對於我們的實質外交都非常的有幫助"},{"start":2792.966,"end":2813.674,"text":"除此之外,今年因為從國發會移撥一些經貿談判的業務過來剛提到的臺英、臺澳盟、臺內的數位經濟論壇等等所以今年會更加努力去確保說我們在談判的時候能夠爭取我們這邊的廠商的權益而且確保我們這邊是能夠扣合國際的標準,不會是我們發展到一半"},{"start":2814.686,"end":2834.425,"text":"發現國際標準換了那這樣子就對我們的產業會有不良的影響那在我們的預期效益方面除了就是繼續擴大資安的聯防之外現在也特別重要一件事情就是我們的線上透過這種包含政府跟非政府組織都有在裡面的這種大型的我們叫Multi-Stateholder多方利害關係人組織"},{"start":2835.906,"end":2864.785,"text":"包括 W3C, ICANN, FIDO等組織都可以讓我們在那邊能夠平起平坐的去跟各國的相當於數位部長的這樣子的人物去進行討論以及去進行我們民主方面在資安跟韌性上面的聯訪那詳細的這個break down就是在附件裡面有執行情形一覽表那我就不在這邊唸細節那很歡迎大家如果待會有興趣的話可以透過質詢的方式我們來加入意見謝謝"},{"start":2874.29,"end":2889.156,"text":"現在要進行詢答先宣告以下事項發言時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記於10點30分截止"},{"start":2892.472,"end":2913.353,"text":"各委員若有提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診現在暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則上不休息現在請登記第一位徐護魁委員發言"},{"start":2924.208,"end":2930.318,"text":"麥克風、麥克風謝謝主席,有請部長請部長你好"},{"start":2936.621,"end":2959.599,"text":"部長 這個謝謝就是您帶領部裡面針對這個打詐這一塊做了很多的努力但是我們在從數據上看起來確實從106年到目前為止不管是打詐的金額跟建樹還是有逐年攀升的一個趨勢那我想包含我自己的辦公室也接到不少我們鄉親的一個"},{"start":2960.96,"end":2988.409,"text":"陳情的案件。包括我自己在基層在跑的時候我們很多的鄉親都在關心我們未來怎麼樣去防堵打詐還有加重罰則的一個處分的部分那我想這也是很多我們的基層的鄉親在關心的一個問題那我想部長您自己認為這個目前打詐案件只欠一個電子簽章的一個三堵的一個程序那我自己個人當然願意配合來修法那這部分"},{"start":2989.369,"end":3006.466,"text":"部長怎麼看這個問題?是,謝謝委員讓我們有機會說明我們是電子簽章法的主管機關那剛才也提到網路廣告的這些線上大型平台像Facebook等等雖然目前還在經濟部但經濟部已經原則同意移給我們只要這兩個都完成我們就可以要求說"},{"start":3007.113,"end":3031.781,"text":"在他們上這些他們要投資廣告他說他是某個名人嘛那現在的問題是說他自己說他名字跟這個名人一樣或很像但是並沒有辦法去驗證說他是不是真的同名同姓那透過數位簽章就是一個高等級好像硬件證明這樣的電子簽章除非他真的跟我同名同姓不然應該是不能夠冒用我的名義喔那好就算他改了名字跟我同名同姓那如果被發現是詐騙他的這個簽章也會被撤銷喔"},{"start":3032.301,"end":3043.634,"text":"好部長那因為我們那個電子簽章的那個打仗打仗成效會定位在未來刊登網路廣告需要簽贊這部分但是我們在這次修法沒有看到任何的一個規劃那針對這部分"},{"start":3047.045,"end":3064.984,"text":"您有提到說希望政府機關能夠有一個三年的緩衝期但是外界會認為太久了那如果說我們把時間壓縮在一年可不可行好謝謝委員詢問剛才我提到投資廣告的這個依據就是不是在我們部是在因為投資是金管會"},{"start":3065.604,"end":3089.863,"text":"有一個投信投估法那在警政署、刑事局有一個執行的這個要點所以其實不需要再去立一個新的投信投估法用既有的投信投估法改這個辦法就可以讓數位前長能夠進來那剛剛委員有問到說政府機關讓人民洽工的時候是不是三年之後都要能夠用電子文件等等"},{"start":3090.644,"end":3113.264,"text":"這個跟我們用來請Facebook或者Google防詐這兩個是兩件事情就這個的日落期跟這個是不一定有關係的但是當然我們是很希望說各部會都能夠加速進行只是各部會告訴我們說有時候要升級一些系統等等他需要經過一個預算編列核定的程序那個程序本身就可能要一年多所以是因為這樣的關係我們才寫三年當然能更快是更好"},{"start":3116.06,"end":3132.014,"text":"要讓民間的企業都能夠使用這個電子簽章大概推供你們預估要多久的時間?我們之前已經有協調現在有一個叫做行動自然人憑證就好像自然人憑證也可以做簽章我們簽公約都用這個但是放在手機裡面"},{"start":3133.214,"end":3157.803,"text":"這個普及的速度就會比較快因為它是安裝一個APP就好的事情那這件事情也很感謝內政部已經同意各行各業包含民間的公司等等只要適用各自法大家都適用各自法就可以來申請這個行動自然憑證的運用所以目前在法規上面已經沒有任何阻止民間來跟內政部申請接下來大概都是一些技術方面的問題所以我們是很期待說只要三讀通過電子槍法給數位簽章"},{"start":3160.104,"end":3165.429,"text":"推定為本人簽簽的這個法律效力我們這個民間技術的配套在那個時候大概就可以ready"},{"start":3166.955,"end":3192.361,"text":"部長我想這個部分我們整個社會的期待還是希望能夠加快這個打詐的這個防堵的速度然後針對這個相關的罰則處分的部分也應該加強化那這部分是不是請部長這邊能夠也帶領我們的同仁加快速度那另外針對我們屏東縣這個老年人口這個已經有20%的比例這個高於全國"},{"start":3193.741,"end":3221.463,"text":"我知道我們數位部也一直在針對所謂一個遠距交取的醫療的部分有在努力那針對這個部分因為我們屏東有很大的地方是所謂一個遠向跟一個偏向那為了針對這個遠距怎麼樣協助屏東縣落實這個醫療資源的一個處理的上面請部長這個做一個說明好的謝謝委員我們當然剛剛提到我們跟衛福部有非常多的合作所以至少確保說"},{"start":3222.103,"end":3223.204,"text":"有些業者他的這個涵蓋率已經到達97%了"},{"start":3243.152,"end":3261.854,"text":"那如果需要詳情的話是不是我們司長這個再跟大家說明一下好,不過因為我們屏東有一個狀況就是我們的所謂的網路系統的一個穩定性的問題啦那因為我們目前屏東還是以4G網路為主那這部分我們怎麼樣去協助我們的業者來做處理好,謝委員"},{"start":3264.336,"end":3285.904,"text":"今年113年,我們針對5G,屏東的台數已經到十幾台。就像我們剛剛部長說的,偏鄉會拉到96%,5G的涵蓋。這邊因為所有包括醫療,包括教育都要靠這個傳輸,不管新網還是固網。所以這邊也請委員放心,我們會積極的拉,包括一些特定的偏鄉地區的鄉鎮,我們都會加強。"},{"start":3288.025,"end":3313.59,"text":"對,但是我們從我們的預算書裡面看得到我們112年有編列所謂的一個遠距離流的一個預算但是113年沒有編列請問是為什麼沒有編列?有很多是我們跟衛福部討論之後我們這邊會提大的公共建設那衛福部會在裡面有一塊但是這個雖然我們是做蒐整還有資料的互通等等但是那個部分預算的編列跟執行會要看衛福部那一本"},{"start":3314.226,"end":3331.196,"text":"好,那我想遠距交學也必須要我們部裡面跟外部部來跨部會整合那這部分還是請部長這邊多費心因為畢竟我們屏東縣這個府院遼闊非常需要這個相關的醫療的資源整合那這部分再麻煩部長一下沒問題,我們全力支持好"},{"start":3332.537,"end":3354.738,"text":"時間因素最後一個大家現在關心所謂一個數位身份證的一個問題那我想目前全世界有128個國家在使用我們的晶片數位身份證那之前我們也一直努力在推動那請教部長目前的問題出在哪裡先看委員報告就是國際組織統計那128裡面是有把我們算在裡面因為我們的自然憑證"},{"start":3355.539,"end":3370.104,"text":"當然以及現在行動自然憑證是算在能夠做簽章的這個晶片的身份那之前的主要的差別只是說有沒有一個獨立的個資機關以及內政部有沒有一個專門的法律來處理說如果每個人都可以讓他選擇說"},{"start":3371.284,"end":3394.982,"text":"要發有簽證能力的晶片身份證．或者當然他也可以選擇不領的這件事情有沒有一個法律來規範以及有沒有一個獨立的各自會我們看各國大概也都是最近就是有獨立的各自會然後來進行這方面的判斷所以我想我們在技術上面我們透過像行動自然憑證這個目前完全是自願的願意來申請的就有那至於全面的任何政策我想都是之後包含跟各自會進行討論"},{"start":3396.641,"end":3397.181,"text":"徐委員發言完畢現在請林國成委員發言"},{"start":3439.38,"end":3442.022,"text":"好,主席請唐部長請唐部長來,唐部長當然你的業務啊說實在的剛成立然後質疑業務的問題確實是很專業但是你的業務也不是當機立斷可以看到成果"},{"start":3462.918,"end":3485.761,"text":"但是當然鬧得風風雨雨啊也就是業務的不章出國平凡這等等那當然這個我想部長有部長的做法那當然每一個單位我們都基本上是尊重但是部長我現在要跟你談有稍微一種政治性的東西是請說二月份的時候"},{"start":3486.843,"end":3511.085,"text":"我從來沒有看過利盈媒體攻擊利盈的政務官這不是只有一篇所以我說實在的我感覺讓我直接覺得部長是得罪什麼人那為什麼通常是利盈媒體應該要正面宣導結果利盈的媒體是打部長"},{"start":3512.809,"end":3520.195,"text":"當然我們將心比心如果是真的那沒話講如果是假的那就是假新聞所以部長我說實在我用一點時間"},{"start":3526.906,"end":3550.477,"text":"我要問你一個問題到底你針對這件問題你認為有沒有證書因素謝謝委員讓我們有時間回答我先很感謝自由時報特別如果您看右邊的你就回答我的問題就好了你什麼不好那個都不要講因為我要代替我要代替你評法把問題把它找出來你有沒有覺得有證書因素"},{"start":3552.317,"end":3580.19,"text":"因為要分兩個層面嘛一個是說像剛剛委員所提到有一些我們的做法要一陣子才看得到成效這個時候就會有政治壓力好比叫說民間對於詐騙覺得說我們主管的地方OK啊但是這些廣告平台怎麼不去管呢等等這個是政治壓力沒有錯啊那這個部分很感謝自由給我們版面去進行回答這第一個那第二個當然如同委員所說的就是我們這個有則改之無則加冕嘛有一些我們看起來也覺得好像跟事實蠻不符的啦說真的"},{"start":3580.691,"end":3587.124,"text":"這一部分我們也透過平衡報導的方式我們自己也發新聞稿來澄清。好啦,我給部長一個建議啦。事實"},{"start":3588.592,"end":3596.455,"text":"我必須要提醒部長在這個部分我為什麼要用我執行的時間讓你去做解釋其實我感覺到好的人才當然不能讓人家猛黑啦"},{"start":3615.142,"end":3635.493,"text":"台灣話講一句話因為你聽得懂嘛人死老賠後死老賣所以這些東西不能因為因為這比較敏感的就是利盈媒體修領利盈的官員這一點我比較納悶的因為我從來沒有看過沒有看過另外一個"},{"start":3636.894,"end":3664.809,"text":"這裡面媒體也報道說你針對媒體的這個做法是中國假信息以及認知作戰及破壞台美相關合作這點是很嚴厲的指控部長你又不是真的而且不是真的不是真的好部長不是真的就是假新聞喔是嗎不是真的也有可能是他誤解我們的意思"},{"start":3665.129,"end":3671.254,"text":"當然誤解 但是你要表示意見啊 不中拜託我民意代表在跟你感動 但是我為你打抱不平欸你知道嗎 可是你從來都不講 這叫做什麼到底是默認 或者說我想不幹了 我也不理你啦"},{"start":3682.961,"end":3707.426,"text":"這個心態你要去調整好我們當天馬上就有澄清這個立即可以澄清我們副院長叫立可白的這個做法那這件事情其實也跟委員報告我非常快速的說明了你不要跟我說明因為我就是替你打抱不平我才談這些事那另外一個你個人事小數位部所有的同仁被抹黑被栽贓這類的東西對他們是不公平的"},{"start":3709.446,"end":3729.097,"text":"博鳳當然因為你是政府官你來氣自如但是你不能讓我們數位部的同仁說一個比較快的這個不擺之煙嘛所以這個博鳳我提供給你你個人事小但是數位部的同仁他的清白是很重要的好不好好來博鳳我跟你談業務啦"},{"start":3733.699,"end":3750.06,"text":"現在我們比較矛盾的地方就是這個像台積電裡面的資訊服務啊那我們有三個單位在做一個是我們樹花部一個是我們經濟部一個是我們國花會"},{"start":3751.101,"end":3773.344,"text":"那通通都是做這些資訊服務請問到底是應該我們做或者國發會做或者經濟部做這個有什麼區別你可以告訴我們好的國發會他是在就是政策上位的高度我們數位部也是國發會的成員就好像我們是國科會的成員一樣所以各個部門要怎麼樣子配合好比方經濟部"},{"start":3774.045,"end":3788.63,"text":"在硬體方面要怎麼樣配合晶片方面怎麼配合我們這邊軟體上面的需求這個是在國發會或國科會來進行協調我們數位部當然就是有什麼差別我要的是我們數位部做的事情有什麼差別是"},{"start":3789.17,"end":3804.127,"text":"我們數位部一成立我們就確保說我們的這些雲端的支付廠商因為這跟以前你一定要裝在一台電腦一不一樣對 完全不一樣我們是用跨境的方式來進行這些支付業者的輔導那經濟部當然是跟硬體有關的部分"},{"start":3806.209,"end":3825.237,"text":"但是這裡面是有三種的編列預算這個不要浪費公帑所以這個部分請部長可能也要注意一下那另外一個我剛才已經強調我們數位部本來就是非常專業的單位當然我也不會去苛責你們一天到晚去出國出國當然是"},{"start":3826.417,"end":3852.823,"text":"稍為吸收一點知識來做交流這個其實從頭開始本席都不會去怪你們這些但是要把成果做出來但是有一點專業單位我們合併以前的支撤會本席接到剪輯說我們資安啊現在未來在台灣是非常重要的喔所以資安是非常重要可是資安守"},{"start":3853.743,"end":3880.159,"text":"他對治安沒有什麼經歷這點我想你回去還是要嘗一下我不要書面你們要你就來問你知道嗎因為這個我還要提供提供就變成剪輯但是有人剪輯我我必須要讓部長知道所以你們所有的這些都不是專業的很多在你們單位這個要把它"},{"start":3880.959,"end":3881.479,"text":"我建議部長"},{"start":3898.826,"end":3922.662,"text":"當一天和尚敲一天鐘把這些清除我可以講一句話就好那資策會裏面本來也有我們的所謂的技術服務中心那是專業的資安工房的人員那我們成立之後基本上大概都到了我們資安院裏面我們有個專門的行政法人那至於資策會資安所現在對於資安產業標準的推廣等等有他的任務讓我們之後拜會委員我同意啦但是還是要盤點一下啦好不好專業單位就是專業單位"},{"start":3926.745,"end":3953.164,"text":"祝謝各法解文件另外一個我們當然因為我們數位部這裡談到我們的這種簡信111這個效果的問題據我了解效果是不彰但是你的報告是效果還不錯但是我要提供給部長千萬不能灌水你給我的資料是70幾個單位使用"},{"start":3955.606,"end":3969.496,"text":"但是我們所投的資料是11個單位在使用那個去年試辦的資料好那這個部分我坦白跟你講跟部長報告這個部分要加強啦因為這種東西統一的這些統一的東西應該"},{"start":3974.48,"end":3992.774,"text":"要去做到大家管用政府機關要管用沒關係那你把正確的資料因為我看到的資料有灌水啦就是舉例一個單位他有分七八個你也把他算一個不是這樣不是這樣沒關係我們在書面提供代會委員的時候也會解釋好不好"},{"start":3996.136,"end":4005.798,"text":"但是我剛才第一個談的政治問題跟這個你要自己該澄清的要澄清好不好好謝謝主席林委員發言完畢現在請許智傑委員發言謝謝主席我們先請部長請部長"},{"start":4028.601,"end":4050.464,"text":"委員好部長好其實我對部長一直寄以厚望因為數位部是一個新的單位那部長也是空前的一個部長所以責任重大人民寄以厚望但是呢"},{"start":4051.719,"end":4060.373,"text":"現在為什麼有很多委員對部長有意見呢?我在想一來就是大家在短時間沒有看到部長的表現"},{"start":4061.547,"end":4085.086,"text":"到底對人民防詐防堵尤其這是人民最關心的但是還是有那麼多的詐騙集團讓人民受害所以會讓人民覺得說我對數位佈置要成立之後我想應該詐騙集團可以減少很多很多啊那為什麼還有這麼多呢所以很多人就會對此不滿意"},{"start":4086.527,"end":4104.662,"text":"當然我是覺得說一來就是說部長也的確是一個新的部跟新的部長那成果不見得馬上看得到但是我覺得部長要加緊腳步讓人民感受到我今天詐騙集團如果說我有10成我已經擋掉了9成擋掉9成5了"},{"start":4106.503,"end":4133.802,"text":"但是我還是有0.5成到1成在欺騙人民還是有這些害到人民所以人民會覺得說數位部到底有沒有做事所以我想這個部分數位部要加緊腳步當然大家對數位部這麼寄以厚望相對的他當然就會用更嚴格的標準來審度我們數位部到底做了哪些我先就數位部的中繼辦公室"},{"start":4135.83,"end":4140.986,"text":"這個人民一看到齁14個月租金7千萬7千萬算起來1個月5百萬"},{"start":4143.385,"end":4170.523,"text":"人民會覺得說為什麼要開這麼多集那真的是會有意見尤其當時就是在中紀辦公室也曾經說要搶東門市場沒有已經完全沒有這件事現在是在行二行三就是也是行政院旁邊所以我的意思就是說在這個過程當中那當然很多人民會有意見那我現在要讓部長希望我能夠確定的就是說這14月的租金7000萬到底要多久"},{"start":4171.463,"end":4194.489,"text":"那將來我們可以避免掉要花這麼多的公帑去租一個地方何況要在星光大樓是不是要在這麼熱鬧的地方花這麼多錢那讓人們有一個不好的感覺所以是不是請部長就我們的辦公室現在的目前使用的地方中紀辦公室跟未來確定了沒有是不是還要花這麼多的租金"},{"start":4195.896,"end":4197.416,"text":"只是已經確定要在行二行三?"},{"start":4217.842,"end":4234.43,"text":"對,那我們目前收到的消息是說大概5年左右可以蓋好但是中間如果國產署給我們任何別的地方我們當然就不會繼續租新光OK,那現在我們先確定就是說未來的地方確定在行二行三那我們這個中紀辦公室的7000萬這麼貴的租金要到什麼時候?"},{"start":4237.113,"end":4255.842,"text":"對,剛剛已經講了就是最多就是五年行二行三蓋好但是中間如果國參署給我們任何其他的地方我們就可以直接從新光過去OK我希望說能夠為人民減少節省公帑希望說那個我們數位部可以盡量的來處理當然所以呢人家又檢視比較嚴格就是說那出國勒"},{"start":4257.023,"end":4268.944,"text":"你看喔出國經費花這麼多錢然後又沒有看到實際的成果我想部長也應該把你的成果為什麼要花這麼多錢讓人民知道我們要核准這個預算我們才核准的下去啊"},{"start":4270.458,"end":4287.771,"text":"謝謝委員當然吸引18國資安來這邊攻防演練這個是以前從來沒有的事情這個本身就是成果但是大家可以看到就是看得見或找到成果很多是好比像說我們吸取國外的一些最新的銀碼技術等等我們在國內的電商推動以至於5個月以來"},{"start":4288.351,"end":4312.724,"text":"這些大型電商都沒有變成高風險賣場等於這個問題已經解決了那這個其實是有感的只是說大家一有感覺這個好像解決了就會馬上期待更多像網路廣告業、Facebook等等那這個也非常需要跟各國談判因為任何一個單一的國家去給Facebook或Google壓力是那個用處比較小的我們一定要聯合包含美國在內所有也有同樣問題的國家一起給他們壓力才能夠獲得談判的結果"},{"start":4313.197,"end":4329.408,"text":"所以我其實私底下也有問過數位部就是說你們的打造網路民主防線你必須跟全世界各國的網路人才資訊人才去做這樣子一個聯防那為什麼一定要出國?不是現在很多視訊會議嗎?"},{"start":4330.549,"end":4349.41,"text":"有啊 所以我們剛剛提到說我們自己辦的或者對方願意用視訊的我們大概會改視訊但是就在剛剛提到兩個就是資安的攻防演練因為那個是非常機密這個手機可能都不一定能帶進去的狀況這種談判以及這個國際的經貿談判他們有時候談判代表就是說一定要見到人那這個時候我們才試這個實體過去"},{"start":4351.002,"end":4380.294,"text":"我想我們的立場就是要看緊人民荷包啦那數位部雖然是一個新的單位那花錢我們當然要特別的注意就是說該花則花該省則省所以也希望數位部在花錢的時候能夠盡量看緊人民荷包以最省的委員者能達到效率盡量不要說人民一看到租金7000萬出國這麼多人家一定會質疑說數位部到底是這個是怎麼花錢的是不是太過於浪費了"},{"start":4380.814,"end":4384.237,"text":"所以我這邊特別提醒我們數位部就是花錢以人民荷包能夠節省為原則好那最嚴重的呢就是打詐"},{"start":4403.772,"end":4424.617,"text":"防堵這個部分坦白講我們人民最關心那我現在也有去了解就是說你們有做電子簽章那這個做了以後可不可以去減少人民被詐騙這個部分其實是整個國家社會最關心的我希望說你們什麼時候可以做出一個成果讓我們人民感受得到"},{"start":4425.017,"end":4449.45,"text":"好 謝謝委員 這個非常重要委員剛剛說假設這個詐騙集團9成被抓了怎麼樣他剩下來的這一成如果他透過AI換臉假帳號等等技術他變成好像10倍20倍的甚至很多這種詐騙我們就是很困擾對就是冒名的狀況那這個就是要靠電子相法修法來解決去年在交委會的時候我就說雖然當時這個廣告平臺並不是本部這個組織是經濟部但我沒有這樣說我是說"},{"start":4451.571,"end":4460.398,"text":"只要交委會支援我們把電子簽約法三讀通過我們願意來當這個網路廣告平台的主管機關那現在已經送到交委會了只要通過我們就來當"},{"start":4461.129,"end":4483.794,"text":"所以將來就是在FB啦在任何的網路平台就他要用的詐騙廣告這些目前是經濟部在主責那數位部也願意把它單下來我們已經跟經濟部說經部也願意讓我們單下來現在是說我們當目的事業主管機關之外我們還需要改電子簽章法才能夠要求這些投資廣告上架前要用這種實名來簽章"},{"start":4485.43,"end":4488.532,"text":"電子簽章是不是簡單讓我們國人瞭解一下什麼叫電子簽章"},{"start":4516.172,"end":4523.049,"text":"電子簽章會不會被仿冒?電子簽章有可能被仿冒但是數位簽章就是我們認定的憑證機構來掛保證"},{"start":4525.239,"end":4549.236,"text":"所以我們只要實施這個電子簽章法數位部可以掛保證不會被仿用我們可以掛保證那如果他剛好跟我真的同名同姓當然也許他可以看一次吧但是被抓到是詐騙之後他這個也會被撤銷掉那是一個身份證字號可以申請一個電子簽章對就是我們像自然憑證來說就是如果換了身份證字號的話本來的那個也失效所以每個人同時就是一個"},{"start":4549.741,"end":4565.379,"text":"就是一個法人或一個自然人都可以只可以有一個電子簽章不會被仿冒自然人是這樣沒有錯那法人的話不是叫自然人憑證是叫工商憑證對就是一個電子還是只有一個憑證只有一個簽章那這個數位部可以保證就不會被仿冒"},{"start":4565.97,"end":4584.759,"text":"我們可以保證就是在技術上面這個是不會被就是資安上面被攻擊當然我們不能排除說有些人會把他的資安憑證交給別人或人頭戶等等但是我要強調就是說他這個只能做一次做完之後就撤銷了最後特別的再要求就是國人對於這個詐騙集團"},{"start":4586.46,"end":4586.74,"text":"現在請葛如君委員發言"},{"start":4630.08,"end":4657.408,"text":"好,有請數位部唐鳳部長備詢請唐部長委員好部長好我想今天是一個我們很好的機會來互相debug一下數位部從111年8月27號接牌到現在已經一年半了部長不知道有沒有越來越得心應手不過上個月有不少部長相關的報導下一頁"},{"start":4658.543,"end":4660.429,"text":"我想從這個報告裡面我們可以看到"},{"start":4665.609,"end":4687.485,"text":"他說呢部長到底是什麼樣的一個角色在這個部會當中他說是好的PM不是好的CEO指出部長缺乏有效領導管理造成與產業署和資安署的互動很少導致最後個性歧視看起來對部長的內部統一能力相當存疑而對外的跨部會溝通尤其電子信項這個法案"},{"start":4688.786,"end":4713.441,"text":"是您擔任部長以來推出的第一個法案似乎對外的業務推展與協調也有待加強想請教一下部長你怎麼看待這個說法你覺得你是個好CEO嗎?謝謝當初在數位部在籌備的時候其實大家就一直在想說是用委員會的形式就是專門用來協調的還是部的形式就是快速執行想要問一下您是不是一個好的領導統一的CEO快速執行政策方面我覺得我表現還不錯"},{"start":4714.261,"end":4741.197,"text":"好,那這很可能就是你的罩門速度其實並不是推行政策唯一的秘法我想請教一下給你一個平反的機會您擔任部長一年半的時間對業務應該非常閒熟這個最近電子簽章法預告完成了近半年這個預告之後半年還有部會在去年下旬提出排除電子簽章法適用的行政命令公告你知道是哪一個部會嗎?"},{"start":4742.175,"end":4749.056,"text":"其實各部會包含行政院、院本部都有有一個部會在您已經預告了以後他就說我不做您知道是哪一個部會嗎?"},{"start":4751.151,"end":4771.531,"text":"我們來看下一頁內政部你們預告完了以後在去年的10月16日內政部締政司排除電子簽章法適用公告我想身為部長對外向行政院申請預算、尋求法案支持還有對各部會的協調其實都非常重要"},{"start":4772.692,"end":4795.389,"text":"我想再給你一個平反的機會想知道一下就是說部長就電子簽商法的部分有沒有向行政院爭取要積極的跨部會溝通我們剛剛已經看到一個不太好的例子我們想問一下有沒有向行政院爭取積極跨部會溝通有的而且不但是在法案審查的過程裡面我們跟各個部會交換意見我們也跨院溝通包含這個司法院等等"},{"start":4796.629,"end":4815.02,"text":"當然我們就有委員手上的這個表就在跨部會溝通的時候大家都有看到這個表我在記者會上面就已經提過了但今天我們特別放一個黃冠在這邊為什麼呢?不只到目前為止有26個部會排除電子簽章法的適用但是我們竟然還有一個部會呢?怎麼樣?"},{"start":4815.74,"end":4830.888,"text":"他是完全在這一次請你們提出來這個兼電子商法草案裡面特別加了一條司法院是不適用的這部分是不是可以請部長說明一下什麼樣的原因司法院可以就不用呢"},{"start":4832.267,"end":4833.027,"text":"我想這個相關的跨部會的溝通"},{"start":4849.975,"end":4857.518,"text":"是會讓外界覺得他們在打臉數位部啦我們都不想看到這樣而你們在送上來條文上面並沒有針對這一個新增的這句話來做說明我想這個溝通或者跨部會都是非常重要的那我們想我們回到電子簽商法本身來講上個星期四的行政院院會通過了電子簽商法"},{"start":4868.863,"end":4891.982,"text":"送到立法院本席表達肯定本席的版本也已經在上週五通過院會的一讀程序我想福國立民的法案我們都非常支持那我們是不是下一頁想要來跟這個部長一起表達我們立法委員不只是立法跟監督我們也還要一起來協力是不是可以跟我一起喊一下這個最重要的這句話大膽擁抱電子簽章好不好部長那我們3月1開始"},{"start":4896.846,"end":4920.829,"text":"大膽擁抱電子簽章吧我想也是喊給這26個部會啦再喊一次對不對好那我就321喔好大膽擁抱電子簽章吧我想這個部長有時候橫向溝通上上下下很辛苦啦那我想我們立委在這裡也跟你一起幫忙啦呼籲各部會一定要一起朝野一起來合作各部會一起來合作"},{"start":4922.13,"end":4934.379,"text":"我想接下來我的版本有一個非常特別的地方也請部長可以理解先喊沒有用,只有喊也沒有用我想我的版本裡面有一個特別的點是"},{"start":4935.546,"end":4962.886,"text":"非常非常的在意電子簽章的核定簽發跟應用的實務現況跟困境有沒有進行過相關的了解到底困難差異在哪裡實務統計是什麼比例用的如何公文書、私文書的比例有沒有做過調查我們新聞去問了沒有任何的資料給我們我在當政委的時候就已經跟經濟部當時還是政法處管機關做過這方面的調查那委員明定說我們要做這個調查我們樂觀啟程願意接受"},{"start":4963.206,"end":4981.565,"text":"好 謝謝那我想這一次為什麼我這個非常非常這個非常重視這樣的一個議題我想大家也都非常重視是因為全世界台灣很可能是碩果僅存的非常尊重硬件章這樣的一件事情我想我們台灣是一個科技之島我們在過去"},{"start":4983.487,"end":4995.978,"text":"我可以刻一個15塊的印章我就可以證明我是我了但是電子簽章只有政府說是你你才是你啦我想這樣子的一個事情我們應該要讓電子簽章的簽發單位更多元啦你最近有寫一本書叫Plurality對吧22年的法案我們這次總算要修法了也呼籲數位部來積極回應產業的訴求"},{"start":5006.167,"end":5033.082,"text":"至於法案當中的緩衝期還要再給三年 這個真的是太久了我想部長可能會很羨慕立法院的自主性我們希望是一年所以不管這個520以後部長還是不是部長還是無論你是不是在臺灣我都非常歡迎你來擔任我的Podcast嘉賓我們一起針對電子錢當的法案再來多做討論好 謝謝之前剛剛許志源我有上他的節目沒有問題 謝謝兩位私底下在聊"},{"start":5036.926,"end":5056.583,"text":"各委員發言完畢現在請黃建豪委員發言好,謝謝主席,我們請唐部長請唐部長委員好"},{"start":5057.438,"end":5076.451,"text":"部長好,我想剛剛經歷了這兩個天才的這個對決,非常的精彩,那我們繼續接續下去。我想這個數法部當初成立的時候有幾個重大的責任,包含說,我要念一下這個強化數位基礎建設、協助企業數位轉型跟打造更高層級的國安聯防體系。"},{"start":5079.827,"end":5097.101,"text":"其實這個東西是當初這個幾個重大目標但是這些三大的政策目標其實坦白講對這個民眾來講距離有點遙遠我把它念完之後其實包含自己當立法委員念完之後我還是不知道這個數位部要怎麼樣落實或具體的哪些政策能夠做到"},{"start":5097.941,"end":5117.63,"text":"之前去年有一個網路媒體針對數位部成立一年的時候你滿意這個單位的表現嗎?發起了網路投票那有4點多萬人參與結果顯示有80%的民眾他認為他自己非常不滿意甚至有8%的網友是認為說不知道有數位部或是說不知道數位部在做什麼"},{"start":5118.71,"end":5134.44,"text":"當然我想這個對數位部來講也是一個委屈我想數位部就像成龍部長剛一開始講的這個數位部的很多的業務他的確沒辦法一開始一觸可及而且這個是一個首創的一個部會我要問部長一件事情"},{"start":5137.769,"end":5151.349,"text":"剛剛這個葛委員也提到類似的概念其實我一直很想問部長請到底數位部對自己的定位在政府的體系裡面你們是一個怎麼樣的角色你們是扮演一個溝通協調的角色還是是"},{"start":5152.49,"end":5176.548,"text":"協助各部會來解決它數位問題的角色好 謝謝委員首先剛剛提到那個應該中式電子報YouTube頻道那當然對我們很關心不過那個並不是真正的民意調查對我說非真實調查對對這個取樣方法不同那但是我確實像這樣子的數字也告訴我們說我們對於這些分眾都要更好的溝通所以像舉例來說像最近電子簽賬法的溝通我們就是先從這個假投資、詐騙、廣告"},{"start":5177.669,"end":5200.192,"text":"怎麼來預防防詐的這個概念來溝通而不是一下子就跳去講什麼演算法、公開經驗那個當然就太過技術了所以我想確實委員勉勵的是很對的就是我們是快速看到民怨在哪裡哪些方法用舊的方法好像已經難以解決我們要快速的創新這裡面當然就有協調各部會的部分但這個快速多元的創新這個才是我們的根本"},{"start":5200.66,"end":5215.656,"text":"好部長謝謝那我們看下一頁為什麼要特別提這個就是問你們到底在這個整個政府系統的這個定位是什麼因為民眾我想今天所有委員都很在意的就是所謂詐騙的問題數位部在剛成立的時候我當然要先講前提啊"},{"start":5216.417,"end":5238.796,"text":"我不會說詐騙案件是因為你們所以才有這個結果但是民眾也期待會因為數位部的成立詐騙案件能夠有相對的減少但是在從這個貴部111年成立到現在111年的時候當年的這個統計數字是2600多件那到了這個113年也是今年初的1月當然中間過程起起伏伏但是你看到"},{"start":5240.051,"end":5246.886,"text":"有一年,這當然是整個台灣社會問題有一年這個數字突然往上飆升之後就再也沒有下去了這個曲線都看得很清楚"},{"start":5248.212,"end":5270.526,"text":"對比到111年8月到現在為止我想整個台灣的詐騙的這個這個比例高達成長了30%到40%所以當然我們期待說數位部要去做防詐的部分那包含說你剛剛提到了這個電子簽章數位簽章法我想阿的確包含部長那時候來來這個來辦公室的時候來談的時候也提到說希望透過這個數位簽章法能夠來解決這個詐騙的問題我想這個數位簽章法數位簽章法的部分"},{"start":5279.266,"end":5283.891,"text":"我們是很肯定說你們很積極在推動這個打詐措施但是我們要問的一件事情是說"},{"start":5285.745,"end":5311.979,"text":"就像你剛剛提到了其實這個跟這個硬件證明是類似的概念就是說把它這個硬件證明把它傳統的硬件證明把它數位化變成這個數位簽章但用什麼樣的技術?區塊鏈嗎?我們現在是用所謂的非對稱加密技術那區塊鏈的那個簽章也是用同一個技術所以您可以是說用區塊鏈等級的技術這沒有問題但是我們目前這個區塊鏈比較不是像硬件證明比較像公證人"},{"start":5312.919,"end":5326.595,"text":"所以如果你簽了一個電子文件你要公示給所有人看到而且是各國都要看到這個時候用公共區塊鏈是很有用但是光是簽的這件事情不是區塊鏈了那部長我想問因為剛剛你提到說這個部分如果用這種技術來講未來"},{"start":5329.761,"end":5355.518,"text":"被偽造的機會相對比較低對就大幅減低因為最主要的還是有一個人別確認的過程就是有人會真的去驗說你是不是叫這個名字而且是如果是以自然憑證來講的話是護證事務所當面來驗證部長那我要跟你分享這民間的擔憂是什麼如果說就像我們今天不談數位問題我們談資本的問題一般的這個人頭賬戶或所謂的這個存摺印章證件等等的他都可能被偽造他都可能有人頭賬戶的這個情況出現那"},{"start":5357.779,"end":5362.401,"text":"但如果有人他自己提供出去或者被騙出去給別人使用那這個問題當然不是純粹的技術問題這是一個社會上的犯罪問題但是我們現在也透過一個聯防機制"},{"start":5379.048,"end":5382.33,"text":"他在這個平台被發現我們就會透過跟165以及所有相關的數位產業來通報這樣他在別的平台投資廣告之後就可以同時來下載"},{"start":5393.12,"end":5421.999,"text":"好,提到投資平台我想部長那時候來拜會誰講過三大平台你們未來也是要推動這相關的數位簽章的部分但是我要提個重點前兩天路透社的報導那今天我看這國內有中文媒體的報導就是說這個澳洲政府跟這個Meta公司已經槓上了因為他們針對這個澳洲政府一些相關政策他們不買單那未來如果我們對於所謂的三大平台不然Google、Meta還有其他的公司如果這種國際跨國企業也是提供相關的法令那他們如果不買單的話"},{"start":5423.18,"end":5447,"text":"那數位部有什麼樣的對策?或是這部分已經開始進行溝通協調了嗎?有的有的。像我去京都的時候就跟Meta的Nick Clegg就是他們的VP專門來討論這個問題我用20秒就是這裡面有一個很重要就是說整份新聞它不一定是call到Meta上現在因為有深層式AI它可以是取那個新聞的意思但是把它變成一首歌、一首影片等等你講的是新聞的內容我現在不是提新聞內容,我要提的是說"},{"start":5448.041,"end":5465.983,"text":"比如說澳洲政府它訂那個相關的法令它希望說Meta要來付費嘛就是你對這種跨國企業政府對跨國企業也有相關的法令產生了包含說這一次我們也希望說你提到說希望對三大平台有所管制它的下廣告它對這個相關的業務範圍它也需要經過我們政府的同意嘛"},{"start":5466.443,"end":5495.396,"text":"那如果他未來不同意這件事情的話我們的溝通機制是什麼首先我剛剛在講的是未來式因為在這一刻他們的主管機關還在經濟部但經濟部已經同意說把這些大型網路廣告業變成我們主管等這件事情發生電子相法也三讀通過我們就多了很多方式來採用那當然我們現在也有參與內政部的打壓專法我們也會在裡面包含大家很關心的境外如果在國內沒有設代理人的這些大型的廣告平台我們能不能要求他設代理人等等這個我們都有在進行"},{"start":5495.936,"end":5509.909,"text":"對阿,因為像Meta前兩天也先講說這個事情就是說未來他要結束所謂代理制的行銷這個合作機會那所以未來像這樣Meta下廣告他直接從比如詐騙集團他直接在海外來執行相關的業務那投放到台灣地區這邊的這個廣告來講的話"},{"start":5512.851,"end":5530.537,"text":"數位部要怎麼去認證所謂的數位簽章這件事情?對,所以就是包含跨國的數位簽章互認這個是我們經貿談判非常重要的一點另外就是設定代理人之後也要給這些平台一個叫做負連帶責任像現在投資廣告如果有人被騙了那而且我們可以證明說是因為Facebook24小時沒下架造成的"},{"start":5530.834,"end":5546.175,"text":"那他被騙多少Facebook要賠多少所以這一部分的做法我們會持續跟相關機關一起來做我想這個不管是數位簽章法還是電子簽章法也好我想現在最重要的目的就是說對民眾來講我們對數位部最重要的期待就是去防堵所謂的網絡詐騙對NCC是電信詐騙"},{"start":5548.018,"end":5570.472,"text":"那對數位部我們期待是防堵所有網絡詐騙所以像你們送進來的電子清張法、數位清張法我們也希望未來在這個法案的立法過程裡面你們能夠去加強去強調說比如說剛剛提到的未來像其他的跨國科技公司你們要怎麼去約束那如果他不同意被我們約束的時候你的談判溝通機是什麼我覺得這個要跟立法院來說明這樣子等於也是對民眾來說明讓大家相信說"},{"start":5572.293,"end":5594.182,"text":"我推了這個法案的時候才能夠真正的解決所謂這種廣告詐騙的問題不然其實過去都說要管理啊都很多管理方式啊但是人家就不買單不買單甚至我們多數臺灣我們臺灣政府也是面對這種跨國企業多數時候是沒有制裁能力的所以這部分為了要怎麼解決我們希望數位部在新的法案裡面如果真的把這個權利移交給你你們要能夠提出相關的做法這個我們責無旁貸謝謝謝謝"},{"start":5597.436,"end":5618.057,"text":"黃委員發言完畢現在請魯明哲委員發言在這邊做個宣告我們到林俊憲委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘請黨團告知其他委員以便他們安排質詢的時間請魯委員發言"},{"start":5625.714,"end":5632.521,"text":"好,謝謝主席。有請唐部長。請部長。委員好。部長好。"},{"start":5634.887,"end":5662.308,"text":"其實打詐防詐已經談了4年今天邁入第5年當然您是最近一年半才加入這個因為大家對於數位部尤其對於我們政府成立的打詐辦公室甚至有打詐國家隊大家的期待是比較深的今天早上我特別看到你的書面報告我也看了一下第二個我也看到你最近的一些的"},{"start":5663.089,"end":5688.036,"text":"對於數位部．對於打詐的一個努力付出了一個成果我感覺今天部長站在舞台上要跟民眾講你們都不懂我的努力都不懂我的心我對打詐已經這個做得做得這麼好了是不是在我們主管的這些行業變商等等這個當然我們成績是不錯但是像線上廣告當然我們在爭取成為主管好"},{"start":5689.611,"end":5707.466,"text":"其實民眾也想跟你說同樣的話所以你不懂民眾的心到底這差距在哪裡說真的啦你們在111年8月成立的數位部帶著民眾的一個期待當然期待很多包括產業領域其中一個希望"},{"start":5708.598,"end":5734.867,"text":"不要再老是是我們的員警同仁在最後那個階段去收拾這個殘局因為他們疲於奔命所以我們希望數位部出來能夠統領這樣的科技的前沿在第一階段在最前面在源頭能夠大量減少或怎麼樣的這個遏止這樣的一個詐騙的一個訊息等等的但是我們現在看到"},{"start":5736.087,"end":5765.267,"text":"這是在尾端。刑事局這五年的統計就是說他看到的訊息那個還不算被詐騙是已經詐到的都不是這些數字然後受害者沒有報案的也沒有統計進來這是被詐到、被騙到、受害又決定去報案的人數我們看到奇怪為什麼大家一直談數位部對大家的期待有那麼一點點的失望的原因是因為你成立之後"},{"start":5766.248,"end":5775.703,"text":"在刑事局那邊詐騙的件數還增加了33%那當然因為量多破案率反而下降"},{"start":5777.25,"end":5803.661,"text":"那你對於這樣的數字的快速的成長你的說法是...好 謝謝我們去年在交友會有說明過就是這一年來有一個很重要的差別就是深層式AI的普及也就是說本來它一個人只能當一個人用現在一個人可以冒充成幾百個人用這個真的不一樣那我們周邊的像新加坡等等它年成長率有的超過百分之百所以這一波是國際的但是我們現在是要把它壓平目前是正在壓平的狀況"},{"start":5804.241,"end":5804.762,"text":"這是第一個看到的數據第二個呢"},{"start":5819.471,"end":5833.82,"text":"最近當我們這個國際的一個反詐騙的一個組織他們在去年年底也算是蠻新的資料啦他針對蠻多的一個國家11個國家常受到詐騙的這些的國家、地區做一個統計"},{"start":5835.973,"end":5864.58,"text":"你看到他上面統計的一個結果我覺得蠻有參考價值的台灣近六成的民眾每一個禮拜至少接觸一次的詐騙我覺得這算保守了這統計算保守了所以這是民眾的感受怎麼詐騙一天到晚來第二個呢真的被騙到了真的受害到了損失追回的比例當然不見得是數位部後面包括我們司法機關、警政機關"},{"start":5865.6,"end":5885.907,"text":"能不能去追回但你也知道你在前言他騙的手法錢匯到哪裡去所以但是我們追回的比例在世界詐騙的一個類似的手法台灣出入的比例只佔13.9元比日本跟新加坡還要低我這樣子講這個原因就是假設我們源頭真的是沒有辦法"},{"start":5886.787,"end":5886.967,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5916.867,"end":5940.984,"text":"包括了電子簽章等等的盡快在法規面讓它能夠上路希望透過你們現在在研究的一些方式真的能夠再度的有效的降低你覺得電子簽章法如果通過之後會不會大概詐騙會怎麼樣降低呢我覺得以這個包含投資廣告在內這種冒充名人的狀況"},{"start":5941.624,"end":5970.447,"text":"他的債範率應該要大幅降低不然就是沒有起到作用我蠻有信心是可以的那現在已經送到大院了所以我想希望這個交友會委員們都支持好的那接下來齁最近啊繞的很熱門的題目啊就是說會身份證吧那我們還特別看到齁因為2000年12月的時候啊你跟阿勇嘛當時的部長啊你們也錄製一個節目啊現在在那個網路啊上面都看得到了"},{"start":5971.187,"end":5995.608,"text":"你特別強調這個數位身份證自然是掛保證 絕對沒有什麼問題在整個節目時間還蠻長的 我聽了一段但你掛完保證之後一個月就喊卡了你跟當時徐部長可以講說是當時數位身份證 兩個重要的後面的一個推手嗎那現在喊卡了 停掉了"},{"start":5997.409,"end":6023.202,"text":"最主要什麼原因?當時大眾對我們主要的期許其實並不是專門技術上面的而是說他們擔心說如果一下子就換發還沒有配套的像個人資料保護的獨立委員會的成立或者內政部的一個專法來保證說就算不用晶片的人也可以用相同的公共服務那他們很擔心說會變成說好像政府可以掌握大家的一舉一動等等這個跟資安是兩件事情"},{"start":6024.96,"end":6045.534,"text":"昨天我看到報導媒體寫說國民黨委員不知道當時的數位身份證剛開始提出這個口號的是我們馬英九政府馬威拉又出來了我就覺得很奇怪我覺得這個公園要蓋一個接待中心我提出這個理念然後到最後你們把它蓋歪了蓋不成了"},{"start":6047.455,"end":6074.743,"text":"居然去指責當時提這個理念的人數位身份證事實上在全球現在確實是一個潮流這個到現在都沒有變嘛兩個原因推不下去第一個資安的餘力就是你當時掛保證資安沒有問題但人民不相信嘛就是覺得資安會外洩的這個部分會外流到哪裡去不知道這是第一個不安心但最不安心的是坦白講是對政府的不信任啦"},{"start":6075.223,"end":6100.728,"text":"是這個資料假設沒有外泄我們政府怎麼樣去內用我覺得這個後端的資料處理擔心極權的這個才是真的沒錯當然啦因為政府可能會換人換誰不知道所以這個兩個例外泄內部如果不正當的一個使用讓民眾覺得非常非常擔心這是停下來最主要的一個原因所以我在想你在去年5月份"},{"start":6102.168,"end":6118.423,"text":"你在專訪的時候在質詢的時候還說有可能繼續推那現在錢都賠了不是這樣講的我說的是這個要等獨立的各自會成立之後那我們跟著獨立各自會包含內政不要不要立專法來進行研擬這是完整的說"},{"start":6118.763,"end":6145.016,"text":"我知道你說獨立的各自會成立之後他決定推不推如果不推那可能就會要去賠償可是各自會沒成立啊現在已經賠了嘛不管有人說那是賠或者不賠那總共花了這麼多錢我不知道因為當時我有請教內政部啦我知道當時你是政務委員你也是主要後面一個重要的一個推手那我們在很多的一個資安的這個餘力之下"},{"start":6146.076,"end":6173.058,"text":"針對於我們資料在國內怎麼樣使用人民不安心可是你看看這件事情總共不是最後的2.8億是整個投入的有可能變成都沒有辦法用所以我覺得非常可惜這對於速發部我覺得也是一個經驗這邊有多少東西還可以留下來如果萬一哪一天數位身份證或者相關的一些device還要再用的還有哪一些"},{"start":6174.338,"end":6176.238,"text":"是可用的設備還是都不能用?"},{"start":6205.982,"end":6208.445,"text":"接下來邀請李昆哲召委發言。謝謝主席陳淑月委員。現在請部長。請唐鳳部長。"},{"start":6220.407,"end":6244.96,"text":"政委好部長好我想數位部國人對於基於眾望當然民眾希望打債要有具體的一個成果第二就是對於公司部門的直通安全民眾的直通安全要有基本的一個保障另外對於數位產業的一個發展也要有給予正面的一個協助那我們來看"},{"start":6246.121,"end":6267.081,"text":"台灣是全球資安威脅的一個重點區域那資安就是等於國安國家的安全的一個重點數位部希望說我們國人希望說數位部能夠改善我們國家的公司部門的資通安全當然"},{"start":6268.123,"end":6282.932,"text":"依據資通安全管理法我們有分層管理的機制包含內部的集合、第二方的集合或者是導入資訊安全管理系統完成公正的第三方驗證"},{"start":6284.412,"end":6307.484,"text":"資安署也有重要的工作就是完成它的集合包括公務機關、非公務機關相關的集合的一個工作我們來看資安署的這些集合的成果包括行政院所屬的公務機關當然都有很多的這些待改善的事項或者是特定非公務機關也有"},{"start":6308.344,"end":6333.104,"text":"將近417個待改善的事項所屬公務機關有700個待改善的事項從集合的成果以及資安事件的件數來看我們公務機關跟非公務機關的資通安全其實它的改善還是有相當大的空間我們來看資安事件的數量"},{"start":6334.164,"end":6362.898,"text":"沒有看到減少啦也都是有增加尤其比較嚴重的像二級的事件跟三級的事件有增加的趨勢那當然部長也知道二級就是非核心的資訊業務他相關的這些遭到洩漏篡改或是停頓等等那三級就是一般公務或是機敏資料遭到洩漏篡改停頓等等那"},{"start":6363.918,"end":6388.507,"text":"這些部分請部長簡單說明一下我們現在目前的資通安全的狀況我們看到這個建築增加有很大一部分原因是因為我們採取鼓勵通報及時聯防這樣子的政策在此之前就是2021年或以前他的資安專職人員他不一定有意識到發生事情意識到之後他並不一定有那麼強的保證說他通報之後立刻會有人來幫他進行應酬"},{"start":6389.267,"end":6414.888,"text":"所以隨著我們應變儲備的能力以及偵測的能力變強本來就會事件的數量變多這是第一個那第二個是說我們現在透過像剛剛提到的巡迴的集合等等的方式我們發現就是攻擊的那個數量以及攻擊的手段的就是先進的程度也不斷的在增加所以其實我們是花了非常非常多的力氣才能夠讓大家看到說最近包含選舉前等等我媽是有其他的一些發現的問題"},{"start":6416.889,"end":6432.977,"text":"依照治安法,治安署他並沒有對所有的公務機關有集合的權限那我們所屬的這些公務機關的治安資料有很多待改善的事項是沒有被治安署掌握的對不對"},{"start":6434.057,"end":6458.956,"text":"我們絕大部分都是集合一定會管考剛剛您如果提到的是像鄉鎮市議會或等等這些這些我們在新版的資安法裡面有做處理那這個草案應該這幾天就會送到現在另外一個問題就是我們一般的非公務機關資安法它沒有去統一要求我們所有的非公務機關的資安相關的資料的這些義務嘛那我們非公務機關的資安維護計畫"},{"start":6461.238,"end":6468.132,"text":"遭受的治安事件還是沒有辦法有效的掌握這也是我們面對的問題那沒有治安法的一個規範"},{"start":6470.435,"end":6495.575,"text":"據如何集合資安資料掌握資安事件這也是數位部未來要處理的一個重要議題來說明一下謝謝當然他如果是非公務機關但是被判成關鍵的基礎設施或資訊系統的話那這部分是在資安法裡面那委員剛剛提到的有些外面大家很多人在用他是上市貴公司那這樣的話現在他也要有資安事件要發表重大訊息要設資安長等等"},{"start":6496.115,"end":6514.866,"text":"那如果又沒有上市櫃的就是普通的這些產業的話那我們現在也透過像TW3CC現在在資安院提供他們24小時每週7天這樣子的即時應出的服務那看署長要不要...部長我還是具體的建議我們現在有的機制還是要強化的我們各單位的內部集合"},{"start":6515.826,"end":6538.036,"text":"現在是一年兩次我是希望能不能調高頻率至少每季一次看有沒有這樣的一個調整的方式另外就是要持續的擴大辦理針對現有的公務機關以及非公務機關它的集合頻率跟次數而且要分為定期跟不定期來做集合來簡單說明一下"},{"start":6539.728,"end":6564.454,"text":"當然我們現在有一個重要政策就是去導入所謂的端點政策系統意思就是說不是只有快集合的時候我們才來看他的這個狀態而是他隨時會回報他實際的狀態那除此之外剛剛委員提的也很好就是像社交工程的演練啊或者我們請紅隊來實際上打打看啊等等這個事情也不會告訴他們到底是用什麼手法來做所以這些我們都有在做那是不是資安署也多說明一下資安署說明一下"},{"start":6565.165,"end":6592.973,"text":"好的謝謝委員其實我們除了資安集合之外我們還有從外部就是從外部去看網路上面的流量去監測是不是有害侵第二個我們也會做攻防就是說他自己說他做得很好但是我們會攻防看看他是不是有沒有問題就是從外面是不是攻得進去所以其實不只做資安集合那另外跟委員報告就是其實我們偵測發現網路上的攻擊真的是變多所以當他有偵"},{"start":6594.013,"end":6607.549,"text":"我們現在是導入那個隨時的監測機制所以他們每隨時有問題我們都是及時要求我還是最後具體的建議除了現行機制的強化我們對治安法的修正我們看到現在非公務機關"},{"start":6608.951,"end":6631.032,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6631.272,"end":6645.501,"text":"數位部現在有一些修正草案資安署具有定期或不定期集合公務機關以及特定會公務機關的權限這個部門也要加強跟行政院來做協調完成行政院的這樣一個公司送到立法院來沒問題謝謝"},{"start":6657.585,"end":6669.034,"text":"好,現在請陳素月委員發言。好,謝謝主席。請主席邀請唐鳳部長。請部長。委員好。"},{"start":6675.806,"end":6693.401,"text":"部長早安,我們知道這個訴發部成立最重要的任務就是這個治安這是大家都非常關心的就是關於防害防詐這是我們主要的重點的這個任務那有關這個防害的這個治安的一個部分"},{"start":6694.202,"end":6711.314,"text":"我們知道就是說在這個資通安全管理法裡面有針對我國的這個關鍵基礎設施的治安有進行規範也有分這個八大領域那這八大領域裡面包括就是能源、水資源、通訊、傳播、交通"},{"start":6711.954,"end":6730.589,"text":"金融、緊急救援與醫院還有政府機關科學園區、工業區這八大領域那我先就這部分請教就是說雖然其中這個通訊傳播主管機關是數位部數發部可是其他不是我們主管的"},{"start":6731.269,"end":6731.529,"text":"謝謝委員讓我們有機會說明"},{"start":6755.983,"end":6774.471,"text":"確實除了通訊傳播以及政府機關的內部網路這兩個是在這一層是我們主責之外我們在上面還有一層國家級的所以這些八大領域的其實都會往這個國家級來進行通報那這個通報我們現在因為由資安院來進行技術上面的分析資安署進行政策上面的規劃"},{"start":6775.351,"end":6791.866,"text":"這一部分我們現在都採取一些整合式分析的方式所以不會像以前那樣子完全說好像是他們八個分別來進行這方面情資的分析現在在資安院我們已經開始去做這方面整合分析那至於就是新的資安法對於關鍵基礎設施的新一步的做法是不是請署長來跟委員說明"},{"start":6795.218,"end":6811.825,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們對到每一個關鍵基礎設施除了說不管的之外每一個我們都很重視所以我們要求第一個平常要聯訪情誌要交換第二個如果遇到事件要怎麼樣通報應酬也有一定的規定那第三個我們會有一個就是"},{"start":6812.725,"end":6812.765,"text":"我們會追蹤。"},{"start":6837.592,"end":6858.52,"text":"是好謝謝署長因為我們知道提升政府資訊安全的防護能力非常的重要因為這個關係到整個國家安全關係到我們國人的一個民生的一個需求因為現在去年我有關心過像彰化的這個肉品市場的一個當機的一個事件本來是懷疑是駭客入侵後來應該是"},{"start":6859.5,"end":6860.141,"text":"通訊傳播主管機關室速發部可是我們看到"},{"start":6888.562,"end":6912.382,"text":"其實在最近幾年也有發生媒體遭受攻擊的這個事件那在這個部分想請教一下部長就是說在這部分我們數話部可以提供媒體什麼樣的一個支援我想首先當然如果是講新聞或什麼內容的話那個不是我們但是我們對他們的資通系統確實是在我們聯防的過程裡面我們會去強化"},{"start":6913.303,"end":6938.585,"text":"一方面就是強化他們的專責人員的這個訓練二方面我們新的資安法裡面特別設了一個調度權就是有這些重大事件發生的時候不會只有他們四個人或兩個人或一個人來負全部的這個應處的責任我們會把附近的就是地點相近的或者說他能夠透過就是相同的共用的系統來支援的這些人把它以戰帶訓把這一次的攻擊當作一個訓練機會一起來支援這個重大事件"},{"start":6939.433,"end":6951.416,"text":"我們知道媒體的傳播無遠弗屆而且速度很快對整個社會安定會造成很大的衝擊我們也看到之前也曾經發生烏龍事件就是新聞台物質跑馬燈後來他們對話說明是物質"},{"start":6958.018,"end":6984.617,"text":"可是我們如果把它想成如果說假設這個是一個駭客入侵新聞媒體的一個事件的話我想這個就非常的一個嚴重那所以根據本席瞭解就是說目前在這個通訊傳播的這個領域除了公廣集團及特定媒體之外多數的新聞單位不在我們的資安管制範圍內是不是這樣就是說它並沒有被指定成關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":6986.397,"end":6996.444,"text":"那這樣子的話可能這部分我們以後有可能去加進嗎?這部分當然我們在新的治安法修法的時候各界都有給這些意見是不是請署長稍微說明一下"},{"start":6997.638,"end":7019.869,"text":"報告委員其實所有的機關除了資安法指定因為它就一定要付出很多代價去做系統的強化但是現在大家都有系統嘛所以我們是採聯房的方式跟情資分享的方式包含我們現在辦的教育訓練那個很多的數位學習的平台我們都開放給所有的那個包含民間機關都可以來使用所以我們就是盡量的協助大家"},{"start":7020.789,"end":7036.926,"text":"是,我想這部分很重要因為我們也曾經看到之前美國的有一個案例雖然這個時間比較早就是在2013年的時候一個就是駭客運用apt攻擊成功接管這個美聯社的官方twitter帳戶"},{"start":7038.147,"end":7051.097,"text":"當時這個事件就造成那時候的美國股市下跌所以這個對整個社會安定就衝擊很大所以這部份我們也希望數位部未來也會要做一個全盤的一個考量"},{"start":7052.289,"end":7079.535,"text":"對,我想我們在自動安全管理法裡面當然我們定義自動安全包含資訊系統的完整性等等但是您剛剛提的比較像是資訊本身的完整性就不一定是系統怎麼樣了但是這個資訊本身能不能及時更正等等那這一部分當然可能比較不是自動安全法這一次修法的狀態但是我們目前也透過像我們的數位產業署透過一些就是審議士民調等等的方式來蒐集民間對於資訊完整性的具體期待"},{"start":7081.149,"end":7103.306,"text":"謝謝部長接下來就是針對有關防炸的部分我想這個也是大家都非常關注的一個議題在這部分因為民眾對於防炸的部分期待也非常的高我們也希望政府要有更具體的一些成效讓民眾可以感受得到"},{"start":7103.806,"end":7129.796,"text":"那對於詐騙打詐其實從源頭的這個防詐是非常的重要那這部分就是跟我們數位部非常的密切關係那在這部分剛剛部長在做報告的時候有提到就是要推動這個數位簽章這部分剛剛很多委員有關心所以我想再請教一下就是這部分未來實施之後是不是可以真的可以發揮它的效果主角這個詐騙的廣告"},{"start":7131.476,"end":7152.983,"text":"謝謝委員給我們時間說明目前這個圖卡上面講的是說他比較在選舉期間如果要登政治或社會類的廣告Facebook他作為就是他的自律的這個做法他是要求你證明說你是本國人而且就是是本人那目前的做法是上傳像身份證反面照片或護照照片等等"},{"start":7153.343,"end":7178.2,"text":"但這個的挑戰是說第一個他可能提供他的身份證正反面的照片是辦別的事情用的然後那個人拿那個照片去幫他申請那這個就比較像是用身份驗證的這種方式去做類似數位簽章的事情但是沒有像硬件證明就是蓋這個章就是我本人所以我們現在把它提升到數位簽章的層級的話那就一定要是那個人為了來看登投資廣告"},{"start":7178.88,"end":7179.02,"text":"謝謝部長的說明 謝謝"},{"start":7206.739,"end":7223.332,"text":"陳委員發言完畢現在請林俊憲委員發言林俊憲委員發言完畢之後我們休息10分鐘謝謝主席本期邀請我們唐鳳部長請部長"},{"start":7228.26,"end":7230.182,"text":"我們已經派人去這個先進調查了"},{"start":7245.554,"end":7266.049,"text":"請問是不是證實確實有機密資料外泄我們目前就是其實中華電信他在那個公開訊息重要訊息裡面已經有講就是說這是在他所看起來是確實是中華電信目前他需要清查就是他到底根本原因是什麼等等那這個我們已經要他限期交根本原因的不改善報告我們收到了馬上跟委員說明"},{"start":7266.98,"end":7292.182,"text":"他不用清查我們就看他賣什麼東西在暗網上這個駭客賣什麼東西大概也知道他有哪些機密資料外洩嘛是不是這樣子很多包括國軍的資料啊像包括海軍啊租用中華電信衛星訊的事情外交部3年前跟現在斷交的諾魯的資通訊合作會議這是列為機密的資料的外洩"},{"start":7293.584,"end":7305.882,"text":"還有中華電信幫海巡署安裝衛星這些資料全部被公開出來也就是說涉及的單位包括軍方包括海巡以及國安部很多單位"},{"start":7307.595,"end":7332.988,"text":"其中還有一張圖,中華電信的電力圖,電信圖那查起來就是在總統府的對面你知道這件事吧?我有看到媒體的報導那中華電信在他的訊息裡面也有說明就是總統本人住的永和官邸的正對面那裡的電路圖都被駭客拿出來賣所以現在證實有這樣的一個機密外洩"},{"start":7336.226,"end":7345.721,"text":"我想要了解的就是說中華電信在我們資訊安全的就是在自動網的規範裡面"},{"start":7347.557,"end":7373.029,"text":"他應該算是特定的非公務機關他是電信的關鍵基礎設施沒有錯對他是關鍵基礎設施他雖然不是公家單位但是特定的非公務機關嘛也就是說他應該是國安非常重要的一部分尤其他基本上有很多業務他是獨佔的就像部長你剛講的他是關鍵的基礎設施嘛但很可惜我們的自通法沒有通過"},{"start":7375.222,"end":7375.603,"text":"當時我記得認為是衛街上的一個爭議吧"},{"start":7392.399,"end":7420.046,"text":"到底資訊安全是要直屬於行政院還是應該要由訴發部來直接管理我記得當時好像是有這樣的一個不好意思我說明一下下我們現在在新的資安法裡面明定行政院設資通安全匯報所以絕對是行政院而且是國家資通安全匯報意思是說就其他寺院或就其他政府都可以由國家資通安全匯報來處理那大概什麼時候會送出來"},{"start":7420.766,"end":7442.591,"text":"我們就這兩天就會簽到行政院那行政院我們會盡快的跟我們的督導政委跟行政醫生對我非常重要啦雖然現在是所謂的cancel next的時候但是事情還是要做啦因為這個法案應該是去年就要通過的啦它通過的差別在哪裡呢現在公務單位都有設立所謂治安長公交機關大概都有啦"},{"start":7443.615,"end":7467.472,"text":"但是很多民間單位就是我剛剛提的有些特定的非公務機關應該要在自動安全法裡面他也有必要要來設立相關的資訊通訊安全的專責單位和主管而且也加重他對於集合通報等等的責任對他就要負起相關的責任像現在中華電信就沒有了"},{"start":7468.297,"end":7485.689,"text":"中央典禮有設立嗎?有,因為它已經知道自然法會修到什麼樣所以它其實是有這方面的編制但是我完全同意委員就是這個我們去年就一直協調包含調讀權什麼然後後來我就跟資安署說如果沒有共識的就下一波了這一波趕快送這樣"},{"start":7486.755,"end":7510.186,"text":"但是中華電信設立有用嗎?這怎麼直接打臉中華電信?這是暗網上賣的他說有1.7個TBA的資料全部都從中華電信裡面駭出來的也就是說中華電信就像部長講的你說他已經有設立一個專責單位因為他知道未來自動安全法的修法方向大概也有設立相關的主管他東西還是被丟出來"},{"start":7514.215,"end":7536.776,"text":"所以這個兩件事情先跟委員說明第一個是說他這個來源是他關鍵措施範圍還是不是等等這個我們根本原因等等二月二十八號就爆發這個事情了今天已經三月七號了確實這第一個今天已經三月七號了所以你說不應該趕快去把它了解清楚對第二個就是說涉及國安的部分我們也及時就是跟國安在通報那我再請教你一件事情"},{"start":7539.608,"end":7561.256,"text":"求指導案就要趕快通過相關的非公務單位的這些特定機關全部要納進來他們要負起相關的權責要建立相關的資訊安全的這樣的一個機制和專責的負責人我希望我們在這方面說話不能加快腳步另外就是抖音的問題"},{"start":7562.386,"end":7570.074,"text":"媒體有報導嘛,抖音在年前啦就過年以前就有來啦抖音的生日還說啦他"},{"start":7571.775,"end":7594.234,"text":"在選舉前就已經就在TikTok的網站說明他已經跟中選會建立直接的溝通通報管道向中選會就是說讓中選會向抖音可以舉報疑似違反台灣選舉法令以及TikTok社群自律公約的在內的相關內容但是我們發現"},{"start":7595.757,"end":7617.378,"text":"選後在抖音上面大肆流傳說什麼做票的這個假訊息非常嚴重有這個中選會及時通報那因為我們公務機關是不能夠連到TikTok這個事情嚴重造成民眾質疑選舉結果你應該知道吧我當然知道那造成民眾的對意"},{"start":7618.839,"end":7644.503,"text":"完全就是中共嚴重傷害到臺灣的民主啊有及時處理的但是我們這邊要強調的就是廣為流傳對導演有負起他的責任嗎要強調的是說他不是普通的廣告平台他現在也被我們界定成危害產品就是境外敵對勢力可能可以實質控制的這個產品你有辦法管理他嗎所以剛剛提到的我在請教部長大家關心詐騙現在詐騙最主要的來源在哪裡"},{"start":7650.014,"end":7667.595,"text":"已經不是臉書了、不是Meta啦是在抖音上面了說C2C直播賣東西之類賣假貨的賣毒品的甚至賣槍的甚至一些色情也有一些很嚴重的兒少色情都在抖音上面校園霸凌"},{"start":7669.059,"end":7691.366,"text":"也是最早從抖音開始的現在台灣很多青少年會被抖音害死他們就霸凌同學要拍影片丟上來都學抖音的最早以前都是一些中國的影片嘛是不是這樣台灣也發生過啊好像兩個還三個屁孩啊把一家很大型的那個超商燒掉好像加入把它燒掉了他筆錄裡面他寫的他學抖音的"},{"start":7693.237,"end":7718.726,"text":"我先說明一下所以現在的一些社群尤其兒少社群、校園霸凌、槍毒、賣假貨、詐騙都在抖音我說明一下就是大型的網路廣告平台當然應該要納管那我剛剛也有提到我們主動跟經濟部說可不可以這部分之後交給我們管所以我們是願意的第一個第二個危害產品的部分在自動安全管理法我們希望能夠看到成果你看美國國會現在就是針對抖音"},{"start":7721.307,"end":7739.579,"text":"他也是說他要求字節跳動一定要跟抖音切割啊就除非TikTok不再被境外勢力控制對要不然他就要他就要他就要查禁禁到抖音啊歐洲很多國家也是啊我們都有注意到這些都是民主國家啊都有注意到為什麼他們發現你抖音嚴重傷害的我認為不是政治啦"},{"start":7740.652,"end":7751.622,"text":"是對於教育啦尤其對一些小孩對一些未成年的這青少年傷害非常嚴重是他作為廣告平台跟作為危害產品我們都會來處理"},{"start":7754.298,"end":7754.918,"text":"您委員發言完畢現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":7792.206,"end":7793.306,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7824.764,"end":7830.169,"text":"二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益．並備質詢。」"},{"start":7846.032,"end":7866.203,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":7866.203,"end":7884.343,"text":"議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":7885.486,"end":7912.073,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":7912.994,"end":7923.404,"text":"議員．1、邀請數位發展部部長．1、邀請數位發展部部長．1、邀請數位發展部部長．1、邀請數位發展部部長．1、邀請數位發展部部長．1、邀請數位發展部部長．1、邀請數位發展部部長．1、邀請數位發展部部長．1、"},{"start":7930.931,"end":7932.392,"text":"主席蔣介石議員、蔣介石議員、蔣介石議員"},{"start":7959.633,"end":7986.254,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":7986.374,"end":7986.394,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":8016.735,"end":8018.337,"text":"議員．一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告．"},{"start":8032.295,"end":8033.375,"text":"議員：一、邀請數位發展部部長"},{"start":8059.906,"end":8083.729,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":8087.789,"end":8111.027,"text":"二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益。」進行專題報告：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益。」進行專題報告：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益。」進行專題報告：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益。」"},{"start":8115.05,"end":8130.615,"text":"社會主席的內容,常常因為刺激到新規的態度,那樣用自然道理去表明發揮。而且發揮因為在南日本的聯會、地理連席、民主黨的開放、民主黨的擁護。所以南日的戰略開放、南日的社會主席、社會主席、社會主席、社會主席、社會主席、社會主席"},{"start":8140.759,"end":8167.551,"text":"議員、議員、議員、議員、議員、議員、"},{"start":8167.831,"end":8185.158,"text":"二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益。」進行專題報告：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益。」進行專題報告：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益。」"},{"start":8192.841,"end":8209.701,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":8209.701,"end":8224.718,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":8224.918,"end":8249.157,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、"},{"start":8251.058,"end":8254.382,"text":"二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益．並備質詢。」"},{"start":8266.032,"end":8275.755,"text":"二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況：完整會議二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況：完整會議三、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況：完整會議"},{"start":8294.641,"end":8309.374,"text":"二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益：完整會議二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益：完整會議二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益：完整會議"},{"start":8323.866,"end":8333.115,"text":"二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益：完整會議二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益。"},{"start":8346.751,"end":8352.895,"text":"二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益．並備質詢。」"},{"start":8363.781,"end":8368.688,"text":"二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就:「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益．並備質詢。」"},{"start":8384.633,"end":8409.855,"text":"議員、議員、議員、議員、議員"},{"start":8421.103,"end":8422.084,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8432.348,"end":8439.13,"text":"委員會主席、委員會主席、委員會主席、委員會主席、委員會主席"},{"start":8465.995,"end":8480.078,"text":"好,繼續開會現在請邱若驊委員發言謝謝主席,有請部長請部長"},{"start":8485.143,"end":8493.425,"text":"法務部紀去年增加了100名檢察官助理今年再增加增聘了150名檢察官助理"},{"start":8503.429,"end":8523.447,"text":"並實施各項改善方案、紓減檢察官工作負荷。請問部長對於去年第一層檢察官典名、金管會、NCC及速發部機構說是否涉及行政怠惰並盼法務部盡快增加檢察官能力?部長有什麼看法?還有什麼解討方案?"},{"start":8526.089,"end":8544.453,"text":"好 謝謝我想委員這個講得非常好因為我們這三個其實是聯房的關係那當時檢察官主要反應的就是說像第三方支付在我們可是金融監理的很多工具在金管會那我們如果不把系統馬上接起來的話那就會變成是說我們第三方支付這邊他們認為說要成為一個破口"},{"start":8544.893,"end":8561.426,"text":"但是這個我們包含洗房在內的這些做法我們立刻就提出能量登錄的方案而且很多是跟檢察官一起討論出來的所以當然我們現在能量登錄當然已經上路了就不會像大家以前坊間說好像有上萬家第三方支付的營業項目跟委員報告現在只有40多家是跟我們有登錄的"},{"start":8561.846,"end":8577.115,"text":"能量登錄是什麼時候的事?能量登錄就是在去年委員提這個漸清漸改的時候我們去年就提出這個方案那我們一路輔導到去年年底那基本上都有來登錄所以到今年呢就是大家如果沒有登錄的這些第三方支付就不能再拿到虛擬帳號了"},{"start":8578.496,"end":8604.965,"text":"那有具體的數據?下降的數據嗎?是的當然我們其實從第三方支付的這個量能可以看到就是之前第三方支付在完全沒有這個能量登錄的情況之下很多的詐欺他都是透過第三方支付的方式可能一層兩層就這樣子轉出去那現在呢我們在跟檢察官合作的時候即時通報的案件的這個處理的速度包含圈存、警示賬戶等等這個速度都有大幅的改善那這部分我們是不是書面在提供委員?"},{"start":8605.305,"end":8626.999,"text":"OK好謝謝部長那我們看第二張簡報那詐騙引進是民怨排行榜的前面可以看到是第三個詐騙詐騙猖獗與資安議題那去年大選期間TPOC臺灣議題研究中心也透過了Quick Seek快息與輿論分析資料庫收集從去年1月到10月的時候網路輿情的聲量數據系統他統計出民進黨政府十大"},{"start":8628.413,"end":8630.294,"text":"提供打造國家對相關部會還有數位治安的科技協助那具體的作為呢針對於源頭"},{"start":8656.954,"end":8678.256,"text":"是的 有一個大家在之前常常收到的就是假冒政府機關那好比像說台水台電說要繳費但是這個點進去就是詐騙嘛那又導致什麼呢有一陣子連地方的國稅局他真的是簡訊訊息都被認為是詐騙變成政府沒有辦法接觸到民眾的情況那這個我們就透過111這個公部門專用的簡訊平台"},{"start":8680.778,"end":8703.202,"text":"現在大家就知道說不是一一發的又是說台水台電要繳錢那個就假的了這就是真正的源頭防詐政府公部門還有剛剛部長提到的國營事業還有一些像電商某某他們我們就發現就是當然就是民間的三大電信等等因為我們一開頭是政府才能夠用的但是三大電信其實他們現在自己都用六碼的這個短碼每一個都已經有了"},{"start":8703.662,"end":8723.752,"text":"五五六六八八其實是無碼的短碼所以大家看到短碼就知道我們希望可以不要觸及到民眾讓就是我們做防堵讓民眾不會接觸到對那針對於是應該是這樣講是說如果你看到國際上面傳來的訊息或者是說一個實碼的他說他是台水這一部分當然有NCC有做一部分的攔阻啦"},{"start":8724.252,"end":8744.591,"text":"但是大家就算看到了一看來不是111不是短碼就知道說絕對就是假的這樣所以這兩個在源頭上面一個是對於他傳訊的本身裡面有附網址等等的去攔阻那二方面是說111把真實的這個部分讓大家知道是部長您提到國際那根據資安大廠趨勢科技發布調查今天總統大選期間中國駭客組織EarthBusca"},{"start":8745.071,"end":8770.8,"text":"他們利用地緣政治敏感議題透過社交工程的手法對台灣發起駭客的活動。訴發部報告還有內容出國成效都有提到國家自動安全發展方案那強化智慧國家數位安全韌性部長您一直提到韌性這兩個字以及跨國聯防對抗治安的威脅掌握全球治安發展脈動還有促進促進跨國治安聯防等數位部隊這種重大駭客的攻擊防護能力如何?"},{"start":8771.48,"end":8795.167,"text":"其實選前像這種社交工程、詐騙、電子郵件真的有一波確實是平常的好幾倍但是不論是這個還是阻斷攻擊等等這個我們是有偵測到而且有擋下來所以事實上沒有出事是因為我們做很多事情第二步就是我們在未來有這樣重要事件的時候我們藉由新的自動安全管理法或一個調度的這個權限所以就讓其他的旁邊的資安專責人員也可以來一起來參與"},{"start":8797.275,"end":8824.757,"text":"想請教部長因為很多詐騙集團他們的機房都設於國外那被害者常常求助無門更助長很多境外的詐騙特別瞄準臺灣人民那臺灣是資訊科技大國有那麼多的高科技人才速發部卻仍然無能為力嗎?不是這樣子我想以境外的這個廣告平台剛剛很多委員在吹詢一方面當然我們有主動跟經濟部說之後是不是這些網路廣告平台也應該移來當我們主管"},{"start":8824.977,"end":8840.455,"text":"那如果真的有移過來之後又推了電子簽章法那他不管是在境內境外他同樣的都收到需要有數位簽章這個規範那未來我們也會參與像打炸專法去說如果他真的在境內都沒有設定代理人的話我們必須要他到一定規模的時候就要設定代理人了"},{"start":8841.555,"end":8862.235,"text":"數法部積極出國參與國際重要的會議還有活動．以掌握各國的數位．技術還有政策．發展情形．對於源頭打炸及治安實際成效如何．請部長說明所以就剛剛提到我們已經主管的部分．他們叫做電商．我們就是跟國外同步去讓銀碼技術．就是電商不用把你的個資．包含手機號碼交給物流"},{"start":8863.536,"end":8864.237,"text":"這是現在Uber正在使用的嗎?"},{"start":8885.346,"end":8908.518,"text":"希望部長還可以繼續再助能力我們希望民眾可以不用接觸到就是被詐騙集團鎖定因為這個部長談到的這個111那感覺還是在針對就是電商只是廣告平台的部分是現在大家最關注的因為很多他並不是電商很多是B2C就是有這個大的平台賣給人"},{"start":8909.438,"end":8931.6,"text":"但是現在很多他移到廣告平臺變C to C就他打個廣告然後他就好像自己直播然後就賣個東西這個時候他並不是商家所以C to C是部長提到就是在臉書上面就是需要用對那這個電子簽商法才能夠給我們就是即使對方賣的這個人是自然人他下一個投資廣告或什麼都可以讓他要數位簽賬那您提到實名制那後續的處理呢就是不只是下架"},{"start":8933.622,"end":8953.575,"text":"對 謝謝我想兩件事一個是說投資廣告當然現在檢舉24小時要下架那我們是希望說他被下架之後不能換個名字再上來這是第一點那第二個是說我們有跨平台的聯防所以他在這邊下架的時候我們就同步通報到其他的包含廣告平台、電商平台、165等等那這個時候他在所有其他別的平台的也可以一起下架"},{"start":8953.715,"end":8954.755,"text":"區委員發言完畢現在請蔡其昌委員發言"},{"start":8989.087,"end":8989.987,"text":"主席好大家好請唐部長請唐部長委員好好部長好這個第一次在諮詢台上跟你來請教"},{"start":9013.923,"end":9042.583,"text":"這些年來其實沒有什麼特別機會可以在諮詢台上講但是跟蔡總統的開會、跟行政院的開會其實我長期以來對三件事情非常關心就是台灣的新山害這個幾乎已經到了大家深惡痛絕已經到了天怒人怨"},{"start":9043.889,"end":9072.515,"text":"這個已經是我已經找不出形容詞來形容這幾年對台灣的危害所以新傷害就是詐騙、認知作戰跟網路的犯罪我想部長你也很清楚完全同意那其實我知道很多人對你批評包括媒體對你批評我認為有一些是對於政府分工的架構過去因為新型態的這個新傷害我們過去的工具也不是太夠"},{"start":9074.396,"end":9088.805,"text":"部會的職責分工過去傳統的分類方式很難有系統有效率的對這個新山派來面對大家處置所以我也知道你做了一些努力包括去調整等等"},{"start":9090.313,"end":9116.758,"text":"但是呢我還是覺得不管我可以理解你的苦衷但是我覺得人民沒有辦法等待當然政府一體啦我們一成立很多就是受到受害的人是直接來找我們說要報案要我們派人去當調查檢察官當然不可能但是我們要必須建立這個機制快速的讓檢警調可以作業沒有錯沒有錯所以我說人民沒有辦法等待所以他就罵政府"},{"start":9117.52,"end":9140.536,"text":"那有時候你就會變成箭靶首當其衝所以我們有很強烈要檢討的部分就我們有一些委屈但我覺得不能談委屈我們要談的是怎麼把問題解決所以你提的包括電子簽章法這個本席是非常支持的因為它等於一定程度的實名制特別在廣告上面一定程度的實名制"},{"start":9141.337,"end":9159.657,"text":"然後這個把業務的規整比如說經濟部原來該管的業務到你到數位速發部來這個我也很支持我們主動承擔嘛對這個我也很支持那除了這個之外其實在防範上面其實你應該要再發揮一點你最厲害的這些創意"},{"start":9160.878,"end":9183.041,"text":"過去我們有很多的這個包括從疫情期間等等一些透過科技來造福大家的方式效率提升的方法防範這個疫情的方式其實都很多大家稱讚你的部分那同時在面對這個所謂的詐騙認知作戰其實還有很多的創意你也可以認真來想一想"},{"start":9183.621,"end":9207.282,"text":"例如說我不是科技專才但過去我也跟陳院長、蘇院長的時代我都提過在跟他們開會的時候我都提過例如說過去還沒有電子簽章的時候我覺得要讓民眾大家對檢舉達人是很負面的例如說一個檢舉達人可能在交通違規上面一年可以檢舉上萬件"},{"start":9209.844,"end":9231.095,"text":"可是我很希望這個檢舉達人在檢舉網路的詐騙的時候他也可以檢舉2萬件、3萬件這個應該要頒獎給他1、2、5現在有一個專門檢舉的網頁但是我還是覺得那個還是太不方便就是有沒有可能有一種譬如說我在看到我看到網路上譬如說現在我還看到譬如說謝金河在招收會員"},{"start":9232.476,"end":9258.927,"text":"這個謝金河很頭痛每天都在一直罵說他一直澄清也沒有用可不可以我看到這個我立刻做一個什麼很簡單一樣在我的手機上不用再打第65也不用再寫email我就直接一點選我剛剛提的是165的網站包含你截圖或165的LINE這個上面有我再事後提供給你其實我的意思說還有沒有更簡便的方式有沒有可能你們研發看看我不知道"},{"start":9260.007,"end":9287.106,"text":"更簡便的方式其實就是電子簽商法我最近也看到很多就是他因為Google現在開始做所謂實名制但他會跟名人的字差一個字但是聲音一樣所以他一下就混過去但他不可能真的叫這個名字吧所以這個就是有沒有數位簽商的差別這我知道所以我說電子簽商之前這個是過去還沒有通過之前我提的那現在當然有電子簽商其實它源頭就可以控管很多就不用再檢舉了對因為你實名了嘛"},{"start":9288.247,"end":9314.697,"text":"所以我的意思只是舉這個例子來解釋說那個創意很重要那譬如說我們知道簡訊的詐騙事實上它跟它是NCC主要在NCC但因為簡訊的詐騙裡面它會連結網路所以它又跟速發布又扯上盤所以NCC現在說如果你付網址那個網址沒註冊乾脆就不讓你發大方簡訊對所以這個你應該想一些方法譬如說我以前就提過後來現在搞了那個111"},{"start":9316.778,"end":9332.217,"text":"那其實不只這樣,像我覺得大型的企業,譬如說銀行,我常常最常接收到銀行的嘛,它是真的啦,它要通知你什麼可是通常喔,自從詐騙這幾年猖獗之後,我都教導老人家,你就不要看了啦"},{"start":9333.615,"end":9353.291,"text":"反正他要你辦的業務他就要直接找到你來辦嘛這其實變成我們的產業在發這個訊息他是效率極低因為我為什麼沒辦法嘛老人家他沒有辦法判別所以乾脆就叫我媽媽都不要打開了可是真的是銀行要通知他要辦什麼業務其實是無效的"},{"start":9354.492,"end":9378.639,"text":"對,那我的意思是說為什麼除了111之外不可以給每一個大型企業比如說遠通他要通知你那些相關的或者銀行像這些大型企業他在發簡訊的時候可不可以一樣有111的數據我們現在三大電信他都有這個6碼的短碼他跟平常10碼不一樣那這個就是他們在幫忙或他自己給會員發簡訊的時候用所以這一套我們跟NCC討論現在三大電信有建置起來了"},{"start":9379.219,"end":9403.288,"text":"那當然是不是說每個企業有自己的短碼像55688那樣那會可能有一些建制費用但至少共用一個六碼短碼這個他們現在都有建制OK就是我的意思說當他有一個你告訴他說上面只要出現比如說上面出現中國信託那就一定中國信託那當然因為他是中文字啦你現在只能用碼用數字的方式如果要字的話當然可以像Who's Call啊Mrs."},{"start":9403.288,"end":9404.829,"text":"Checker啊這些要裝APP"},{"start":9405.449,"end":9426.459,"text":"對,所以我的意思是說這個叫創就是一樣科技帶給我們便利但也帶給我們新的犯罪形態但同樣的我們也應該再把科技有利的部分再數發布再想想再發揮一下創意我委員講得非常好,完全同意那最後一個就是說我今天看到了媒體美國這個聯邦眾議院在這個美中戰略競爭特別委員會裡面"},{"start":9431.201,"end":9458.678,"text":"他們要提了一個法叫做保護美國人免受外國對手控制之應用程式侵害法案簡單講就是他要中國這個自解跳動這個公司也就是抖音啊就要抖音這個公司啊要他切割也就是國際版的抖音不可以跟中國的這個自解跳動而且不是只是什麼持股51%他要證明他不會受實質控制對對對對那你個人覺得"},{"start":9461.224,"end":9482.201,"text":"這個就是我們在資安上面對危害產品我們是完全同一個立場就是危害產品現在並不是說他註冊在哪裡他就算註冊在新加坡在開曼群島等等我們有情資顯示他被實質控制他一樣是危害產品所以換言之臺灣會跟隨如果美國法案這個法案過了我們一樣要求跟隨我們已經做這樣一陣子所以我們的但是我們"},{"start":9484.002,"end":9507.302,"text":"我們要求國際版的抖音你要求過他們嗎?我們現在是這樣子跟委員報告我們現在跟美國的狀況是一樣的我們更早實施就是在政府裡面包含這個公務員貨配的設備等等這些是擋住的TikTok是連不到的當然除非中選會他是需要檢舉我們專門開通那幾台電腦那這個跟美國是同步"},{"start":9509.744,"end":9530.607,"text":"那委員剛剛提到的是說有沒有說要逼著他說一定要設一個境內的這樣子的presence那這個我們事實上有主動的請抖音請TikTok啦從新加坡來台北來進行這方面的討論那這部分因為我們要先取得網路廣告平台業的主管機關的這個狀態所以要先從經濟部移過來我們下一步比較好做"},{"start":9531.827,"end":9557.395,"text":"所以我覺得這個其實美國的動作都會全球裡面我看美國最大他每次都是引領大家因為我們都很清楚知道這個是言論自由跟國家安全之間這個歸根究底就是這兩者之間的想法上的論戰但我覺得美國他作為民主國家的這個領頭羊他每次都是動作最大"},{"start":9559.804,"end":9576.322,"text":"我想這裡還是要分開一點就是在英文他們說freedom of speech就是你的發言跟freedom of reach就是你透過廣告一下擴散到整個社會這兩個還是不一樣的那不是說不讓大家有言論自由但是透過錢來散播到整個社會這另外一回事"},{"start":9576.642,"end":9590.872,"text":"沒錯,其實我們都懂啦只是說我會覺得他每次贊成跟反對的聲音他背後的價值常常是在這一個問題上面來凸顯那所以我的意思就是說如果國際發樓的事情我覺得我們"},{"start":9592.254,"end":9615.494,"text":"至少要跟上,如果能超前當然更好當然,我們盡量以超前為目的因為時間的關係,主席又站起來了所以我們還有很多時間可以跟書發部一起來討論其實我今天講這傷害我都還沒開始提它的內容比如說這網路犯罪我跟部長也提,我前兩年也被駭客把我的電腦整個控管住"},{"start":9616.345,"end":9640.213,"text":"我去報案看起來我們的警政機關也沒有什麼方法我們樂意來拜賀委員對對對最後我還叫這個最後他勒索我要用比特幣去換我的資料所以其實我也是受害者所以我其實有很多的想法有時間我們再來討論我們就找時間拜賀委員謝謝蔡委員發言完畢現在請廖先祥委員發言"},{"start":9653.29,"end":9653.491,"text":"請唐部長"},{"start":9661.881,"end":9687.458,"text":"部長其實我今天一樣跟我們的林國城委員一樣先幫你報區一下這個去年我們在編列今年出國考察預算的時候我們編了3000多萬元被有一些不同的意見大家認為是編太多有浪費公帑的情形很多人都有一些批評但這個在前幾天一樣是浪費公帑的情況下這個2.8億這個數位身份證的賠償金額哇大家都在護航"},{"start":9691.56,"end":9708.932,"text":"你可能心裡會有一點不平衡啊一樣這個可能公帑大的使用上面這個2.8億丟一個水漂下去什麼都沒有結果結果你3000多萬的考察費用就被批評成這樣我是覺得可能心裡會有點不太平衡講一個你可能更不平衡的事情喔這個除了2.8億的賠償經費之外其實我們國家並不只有賠償2.8億的經費"},{"start":9714.375,"end":9734.774,"text":"包括前置的設置費用、硬體設置費用有3.79億已經付給廠商了還有6800萬的一些維護一些耗材的費用6800萬加起來我們國家總共在數位身份證上面實際上給這個廠商的費用大概是7.27億完全是我們3000多萬考察預算的"},{"start":9735.782,"end":9735.802,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":9755.453,"end":9770.478,"text":"計劃而是暫緩預算每年有6300萬的維護費用要再編列支出那我想確認一下部長因為現在是暫緩那未來我們數位身份證的推動在我們訴發部這邊我們的立場是怎麼樣包括剛剛有提到的資安我們訴發部的立場是怎麼樣"},{"start":9774.319,"end":9776.041,"text":"所以您認為在資安上面我們現行的設計是沒有問題的?"},{"start":9795.391,"end":9816.633,"text":"在資安方面其實我們現在用自然人憑證在國際上我們是算有EID的國家就是因為有自然人憑證那我們當然對於自然人憑證以及現在APP行動自然人憑證的資安這個當然我們跟內政部是用最高規格去看待現在只是說這個個資大家希望一個獨立的個資會確保那這裡面有我們書發部的這個角色嗎"},{"start":9817.435,"end":9837.448,"text":"當然我們是資安的主責機關啊但是各自會是獨立的獨立機關的意思就是不會預算變到我們不會變到你們這邊但是在成立這個算各自會的過程當中還是需要我們訴發部的一個協助我有特別就是指定我們的行政法人資安院在技術上面各自會所有需要協助資安院就好我們這邊還是要拜託我們訴發部喔"},{"start":9838.228,"end":9863.941,"text":"在成立這個後續身分證的這個各自委員會的上面我們也要多用點心因為現在我們國家還在每個每年要花費6300萬去做這個設備的維護拖一天工廠就浪費了20萬那再拜託我們的訴發部是那之前還有民間的訴求是內政部應該用一個專法明定說如果不是用數位不想用數位的他不會因此喪失什麼權益那這部分可能就要請內政部"},{"start":9864.881,"end":9889.845,"text":"那大家一起加油那這個考察的部分雖然說這個相較之下我們的金額比較少啦但是也不是沒有這個可以檢討的空間那我肯定我們剛剛有提供的報告包括去年度跟今年度要預計的這個出國考察嘛那在考察的數量上面我先說經費啦去年是1408萬嘛對不對那今年大概是3000變3000多3700然後被砍了600嘛對不對所以原則上預算是增倍的嘛對不對"},{"start":9895.144,"end":9914.688,"text":"但是因為業務也是增倍啊可是我們看我們的考察的這個會議數量去年只有大概28個會議的場次那如果說預算增倍的話那我們要參加的會議的場次應該也是要相對應接近兩倍但是我們看今年的計畫我們目前只有安排34場只有從28變成34但是我們的經費"},{"start":9918.729,"end":9944.381,"text":"我們不算你原本編列的啦就是被砍過了我們是正面的情況下我們只增加六場怎麼那麼多的預算先跟委員說明有一些他是多個不同的就是機關包含像資安署、庶產署等等在資安相關的因為分成就是關鍵基礎跟公部門資安的部分資安研究的部分還有資安產業的部分所以同一個這個會議本來可能只有一小部分人參加那現在會變成比較多人參加這第一個"},{"start":9945.001,"end":9961.303,"text":"第二個是說我們也發現到包含這個機票的這個郵票的費用等等這個是他實際上是有調生所以這部分也有調生那最後就是說我們真正的新興業務委員看到如果是一場經貿談判或是跟對方互訪等等其實一個談判後面是有非常多場會議"},{"start":9962.784,"end":9987.719,"text":"我只是提醒部長我相信公家單位的使用經費絕對有相關的包括自己部門包括城市機關的積合但是既然我們經費增加了一倍但是我們參訪數量卻只增加了六場那大家會認為他在使用上面的合理性我們有沒有浪費工廠是不是從原本的商務艙變頭等艙還是住的飯店要變高級這個是可能單純我們在書面上面看到會懷疑的部分那所以後續可能相關的"},{"start":9989.241,"end":10003.919,"text":"這個成果還是要跟我們的國安來做說明的報告另外一個請教一個比較專業的問題啦你的部長認為我們國家在未來資安風險上面遇到最大的挑戰會是什麼當然是深層SAI深層SAI"},{"start":10005.287,"end":10028.03,"text":"所以你認為深層式AI會對資安系統有破壞因為現在很多的供給它是好像遙控一樣它要有一個人在後面去操縱但是深層式AI它就好像把一個黑帽駭客放到我們的電腦網路裡它自己在這邊用現有的工具自己想出怎麼供給它完全不需要外面遙控那這個的狀態完全不一樣"},{"start":10028.649,"end":10057.929,"text":"因為現在包括我們的資安尤其是銀行的啦那一些資安的一些要破解可能都是要花現行的電腦啦可能都是要花上千年的一個時間的這個運轉的效率才有可能破解嘛那大家現在比較擔心的事情是一件事情就是量子電腦的誕生我們對於現今資安系統的建制如果說未來有任何敵對的國家他發展出了量子電腦他發展出來可以運用絕對不會跟你講嘛"},{"start":10058.709,"end":10077.355,"text":"對不對就像當初這個二戰的時候這個密碼戰的時候一定是先建立好了之後擷取你的很多情報等到你被發現的時候你已經受到了很大的傷害那我們國家對於將來量子電腦如果真的誕生了那我們國安的這個治安要我們怎麼預防"},{"start":10078.189,"end":10104.158,"text":"我們的研究人員其實一直都積極的來參與包含美國在內制定叫後量子密碼學就是不怕量子電腦的加密方式的包含標準的制定啊等等這個我們都積極的參與所以我想這個還有一段時間不像現在現在就很大的威脅了在未來的幾年裡面我們會更新我們的系統到即使量子電腦研發出來他也不能回溯把他們攔截的這些加密訊息加以破解就是導入後量子密碼這個非常重要"},{"start":10104.438,"end":10130.931,"text":"所以部長的意思是說現在我們已經有正視到的這個問題那有在相關的討論當中了但是目前還沒有明確的方案出來他需要一個國際標準包含怎麼樣是跟國際的廠商用相同的標準一起導入所以是不只我們的政府部門包括將來商業的部門可能會有一套防範電子電腦的一個就是後端電子密碼學好那這部分在一樣我們國內絕對是不能夠落後於國際的絕對不會落後好以上這個謝謝部長那今天的時間到這邊謝謝部長謝謝召委"},{"start":10133.803,"end":10139.427,"text":"兩位委員發言完畢現在請謝依鳳委員發言主席好我想要請唐部長請部長委員好我不用問"},{"start":10157.972,"end":10171.232,"text":"我不用問說那個你會不會續任齁我看今天好像交通委員會法人問津喔都沒有人跟我像昨天一樣在搶排隊喔是不是因為昨天我沒有在這邊所以等一下你會不會續任"},{"start":10173.954,"end":10194.108,"text":"當然我們政務官去留是長官來決定是喔那應該是不會續任是不是我剛剛講了長官來決定還有我想要請問一下就是其實我那天也去財政委員會問了就是經管會的主委關於打炸的問題那這是一個跨部會的活動"},{"start":10194.608,"end":10219.53,"text":"那他對於他自己在就是說銀行端的部分攔阻就是金流這個部分他認為他的就是說成效是顯著的卓越我有看到金額的數量包括警示帳戶什麼對金額的數量的確有增加非常多但是民眾就是說一般而言認為政府部門打詐的成效非常低"},{"start":10220.271,"end":10242.268,"text":"那有可能是我們到現在還在接收到就是說不管是簡訊也好不管是在網路上也好都有相關的資訊的就是說很像就是對就是可能假冒就是郵政總局假冒其他單位公部門的單位"},{"start":10243.228,"end":10268.376,"text":"來就是說要求你輸入個資或者是希望你可以的那這個部分為什麼我們目前還沒有辦法有效的攔住謝謝委員讓我們有機會說明我們其實協助檢警調去年每天都下架就是接近上百個就三萬多個這種國外的這種一戰式詐騙的網域但是委員剛剛講得非常好就是說即使我們下架了意思是說你點不會被騙"},{"start":10269.036,"end":10269.216,"text":"而且﹐而且"},{"start":10291.559,"end":10302.445,"text":"而且金管會因為那天大家都在問金管會說為什麼Google跟臉書就是好像Google比較快臉書比較慢臉書說要到6月嘛對 那是什麼樣子的問題"},{"start":10303.988,"end":10322.174,"text":"我想這個有兩個原因啦,一個是說臉書雖然他現在已經對於政治類廣告,比方選舉期間的廣告他有一套KYC就是做身份認證的方法,你要拍身份證正反面等等但他這個並不是像數位簽章一樣快速用機器就可以驗證,他後面有一些人工作業"},{"start":10322.774,"end":10336.865,"text":"所以Facebook會擔心說如果所有投資廣告都要那個量很大的話他受不受得了所以我們現在推電子簽商法就是一方面是在省臉書的麻煩就是他可以用機器直接就驗數位簽商不用再去看這個身份證是不是會合成的等等"},{"start":10337.455,"end":10359.422,"text":"所以他現在是用手動的,是用人工的而不是用那為什麼我們在申請就是說臉書的數位認證的時候你還是就是說你還是好像他還是是用對他好像還是用就是說用感覺上啦因為我們也不知道他後台的作業是怎麼樣子的"},{"start":10361.002,"end":10377.131,"text":"對因為你不知道他到底是用電腦驗還是用人工驗這是無法他當然先用電腦篩過啦就是說如果看起來就是假的當然電腦可以會去判斷但是如果只拍身份證反面他的問題是這樣就是說可能這個人他為了辦別的業務提供身份證反面出去"},{"start":10377.691,"end":10399.745,"text":"那個人把他攔截住了或那個人冒他的名再去跟臉書去申請驗證這就是因為這個身份證反面本身他並不是等於蓋章或者是硬件證明他沒有附著在一個文件上所以這個情況下你不知道他提供是真的他提供還他提供給別人、別人在提供那我們透過電子信用法就可以杜絕這樣的情況他提供就是為了這次的申請來提供"},{"start":10400.86,"end":10429.933,"text":"所以那到底能不能我說這是你說的嘛就是說希望儘快三讀通過可以就是遏止就是說相關的網路上面的詐騙但是喔其實這只是臉書的只是一環其實我們的簡訊手機也是還是收到這樣子的連結啊我也常常收到啊是不是也許我們就是我其實就是不理或者怎麼樣可是一般的民眾呢還有我們就提到了有數位落差嘛"},{"start":10430.433,"end":10445.566,"text":"有一些人是有一些的民眾是有數位落差的有一些的中高領者對於數位落差可能又更高那這個部分根本都沒有相關的就是說作為啊是不是才會導致民眾認為詐騙依然很多"},{"start":10451.051,"end":10467.088,"text":"回答委員的追詢其實像台水、台電或假冒公部門的這個之前是非常猖獗那這部分我們推出111之後用這樣子來詐騙成功的就大幅減少因為大家知道不是111假的這是一個另外一個是說很多接到詐騙簡訊"},{"start":10468.229,"end":10494.747,"text":"在一年前的狀態是說他到某個電商買了東西然後透過物流或什麼有人掌握到說他現在買了這本書或者這個商品然後他馬上傳個簡訊說解除分期付款失敗啊什麼的那因為他裡面會提到這個具體的電話號碼跟什麼時候要送到你家所以這個時候他很容易取信於人那這部分我們也透過讓這個大的電商都導入所謂物流銀碼就是你的手機號碼不會再提供給物流了的這個方式到現在已經基本杜絕這個狀況"},{"start":10496.98,"end":10520.686,"text":"對阿我是說這是你目前認知的情況但是跟民眾認知的情況還是有一段的差距我覺得假冒名人的廣告這個是現在民怨最大的地方除了假冒我是說除了假冒名人以外其實很多還是我還是常常收到那個還是有很多別的啦當然雖然說有一些時候那個我們的手機號碼會告訴你說喔這可能是詐騙的"},{"start":10521.886,"end":10551.168,"text":"但是很多的部分在投資或者是在就是相關的貸款等等的還是層出不窮這才會是就是民眾認為詐騙依然存在民眾對於政府打詐的成效不彰以及大家認為說各部門都覺得自己做得很好那為什麼這個打詐成效民眾還是沒有覺得我一直覺得沒有電子簽案法這個真的是一個大問題就麻煩委員支持如果可以的話謝謝"},{"start":10553.87,"end":10565.474,"text":"謝謝委員發言完畢現在請鍾嘉斌委員發言鍾嘉斌委員不在現在請游浩委員發言"},{"start":10582.363,"end":10585.146,"text":"請部長請唐部長委員好謝謝 部長剛才蠻多的委員那其實也都針對的數位發展部包括部長的許多業務尤其是在這一年多來大家所推動的事情"},{"start":10603.905,"end":10632.213,"text":"大家當然有飽有扁啦那大家是期待甚深但是在於打詐防詐的部分以及包括治安的這個發展那其實許多委員都有期待都有批評那也希望說數位發展部能夠更好能夠加速來改進那對於這些的批評對於許多的質疑那想問一下部長會不會對數位發展部的同仁感到委屈"},{"start":10633.503,"end":10658.236,"text":"謝謝委員讓我們有機會說明我想我們絕對是看到這些批評很多是很有建設性的批評會不會感到委屈會同仁感到委屈我會覺得說同仁做得這麼辛苦但是他就是做到這麼多事實上是大家的感受是確實有些部分沒有再出問題了這個部分我是覺得我很肯定同仁至於建設性的批評"},{"start":10658.336,"end":10676.049,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":10676.229,"end":10697.706,"text":"當然同樣的我就直接延續了不管是打詐防詐的部分其實確實需要去加強因為在南投縣其實之前數位發展部花了幾百億的部分在強調著打詐有多努力還有多大的一個成果但是在民調上的時候其實是有八成的民眾還是不滿意"},{"start":10698.266,"end":10726.429,"text":"那個是就是中時電子報Youtube的對這我知道那沒關係但是未來來講的話我記得在之前上個會期曾經有委員有要求速發部未來可以用這個就是替代役啊數位替代役來協助這個南投啊一些偏鄉的長輩來進行這個這個包括叫他們辨識真假訊息啊還帶到各社區機構啊那這個部分後來有下文嗎"},{"start":10726.989,"end":10755.394,"text":"我們就是透過數位據點的方式喔 這個我們有積極的在辦理但是這個積極辦理的情況之下 難道在民間還有民眾啊那就到最後還被騙了800萬再騙到3000萬那就到最後回頭來講 這個宣導其實是非常的有待加強很多我覺得還是要在源頭啦 像今天反復提到電子簽賬法就是我們宣導是到大家已經收到了 要他不要去點但是可能一開始就不要讓他看這個廣告"},{"start":10756.694,"end":10774.221,"text":"反正是希望說數位發展不能夠加強那同樣的延續了剛才許多委員所提到的這個數位身分證的部分啊那數位身分證的話其實目前來講我們看到暫緩可能暫緩的部分內政部大概一直強調的是資安的問題還是數位的問題那我想問一下"},{"start":10777.122,"end":10788.818,"text":"像吳正勝主委他也直接講說這個過程中他到最後原本是10億到時候調節金額落在2.8億但事實上這是由全民買單但內政部他也強調說這都是在資安的問題他們現在也沒有辦法來去進行這個"},{"start":10792.924,"end":10822.135,"text":"那我想問一下內政部這樣子對於資安以及對於數位發展來講你怎麼看?我想先還原一下就是當時內政部也好或民間的人權團體的期待是有一個獨立的各資保護會各資保護會當然跟資安是有關的但是各資保護會是獨立的意思是說它也必須來監督像我們數位部有沒有過分蒐集各資過分利用那現在這個部分已經成立了所以說未來的數位身份證還要推行嗎?"},{"start":10822.611,"end":10844.72,"text":"就是這個獨立的各自專責機關以及如果內政部要立一個專法這個是當時民間提的兩大條件那數位發展部支持數位身份證繼續推行嗎我們在國際評比上面我們其實已經有數位的身份證件就是自然憑證跟現在行動的自然憑證自然憑證歸自然憑證因為在目前來講有完成到這個數位身份證的國家總共有多少國家"},{"start":10845.26,"end":10861.578,"text":"我剛剛提到120多國裡面包含我們喔1208國嗎包含我們喔但是問題是你說的是那個自然憑證可是問題是數位身份證跟自然憑證是不同的阿他等於有點像自然憑證跟實際判證這不能這不能魚目混珠阿好像貼在一起這是兩卡合一阿這個是兩碼子是因為"},{"start":10863.46,"end":10882.988,"text":"當初在數位身分證原本的構想本來就不是用自然憑證那是一個延伸甚至加強甚至一開始自然憑證還想要再整合T-Load還包括政府機關的資料交換還想整合駕照跟健保卡T-Load我們有在做問題是這個整合的數位身分證未來還要再做推行"},{"start":10883.568,"end":10884.689,"text":"所以說這個身份證就沒有要做了"},{"start":10903.868,"end":10926.909,"text":"我們當時我在院裡擔任政委的時候當時的立場其實就是大家應該要可以自由選擇就是你裡面要有自然憑證規則那所以說所以我就直接就叫部長那內政部他說是職案的問題那你那時候有擔任政務委員那你也在這個過程中曾經都介入協調那所以以現在來講數位發展部的角色就是反對再去推行數位身份證"},{"start":10927.669,"end":10949.791,"text":"剛剛提到的是說我們這邊全力支持包含獨立的各資會的設立現在還沒有那未來如果內政部要訂一個專法也得到這個獨立各資會的同意的話那個時候才有所謂要不要繼續做的問題那時候我記得在相關討論內政部曾經也說他這四五個法規的部分其實目前還可以去補充在數位身份證上面的一個運用嘛"},{"start":10950.211,"end":10962.401,"text":"那所以說現在要等到訂定專法之後才要推行那部分是不是其實應該要問內政部我們這邊看到的是說我們的資安的管理包含現有的自然憑證行動自然憑證他資安無虞這個這個我們負責啊貼肉也是我們負責對那所以說"},{"start":10966.804,"end":10989.68,"text":"現在來講的話因為以前啦以前的話因為在民眾所講當初我記得蘇貞昌在當院長的時候說的意思來講秀才不出門能知天下事要變成秀才不出門能辦天下事那這個是想要我們來陪他對那現在變成說民眾覺得秀才遇到江湖郎中所以到最後把這個數位身分證暫緩了之後他這個東西就無極了"},{"start":10992.062,"end":10996.766,"text":"就是獨立的各自會要先成立這個不管我或者民間也都是相同的立場那這個部分我們全力幫助獨立各自會成立"},{"start":11020.744,"end":11038.154,"text":"我的想法是這樣就是說因為數位發展部大家對於部內是期望甚深那在內政部他一直在這個數位身份證的時候又說都是資安的問題那各自的問題那同時他一邊在印資身份證一邊做規劃的這個過程確實就有資安的餘力沒錯吧"},{"start":11040.555,"end":11042.196,"text":"政府去做額外的利用那變成是政府機關要負責"},{"start":11058.547,"end":11085.489,"text":"所以就變成一個獨立的各自會來監督政府機關那沒關係因為時間有限本期還是希望說在這個目前來講全民買單2.81的這個事情內政部他一直在回說是資安的問題那如果說數位發展部過去來講你也擔任過政務委員那你對這案子也非常的熟悉那你剛才的立場跟態度其實當然說講政人憑證之外其實你是支持這個數位身份證"},{"start":11086.329,"end":11102.18,"text":"我支持獨立個資會先成立至於要不要訂專法這是內政部跟這個獨立個資會沒有時間回答我的問題因為事實上印那個身份證的權責那個法的主管機關並不是我們我知道 這我清楚但是因為內政部他們還是回推到是數位跟資安的問題"},{"start":11103.041,"end":11125.453,"text":"所以所以我還是簡單講時間到那我還是要跟部長講就是說當大家都期待著這個資安跟個資的部分能夠做充分的一個保障的時候那居然有數位發展部我希望部長也能夠拿出gas還能夠讓內政部早日把這個數位身份證信能夠推動不要對不要讓人民再次當這個冤大頭謝謝委員質詢謝謝"},{"start":11128.474,"end":11130.596,"text":"主席,請唐部長上台請唐部長"},{"start":11153.025,"end":11179.62,"text":"委員好唐部長您這份報告寫了69頁然後我蠻辛苦的看完了其實感覺起來蠻不舒服的因為蠻像在作文比賽您剛開始第一段第一頁第一段就充滿了所謂的傳統價值說三發、社發、產發、突發我還覺得說你乾脆說你發我發大家發就好比較快一點像這樣的口號治國然後浪費我們納稅人的錢本席認為其實蠻不妥的"},{"start":11180.4,"end":11202.979,"text":"請在這邊直接很快速的回答你們上面有講你們對社會共融、對提高提升產業轉型跟提升應變韌性的績效在哪裡請給我三項的數據好的第一個我們透過像111這樣子的簡訊平台確保說所有的公部門甚至包含地方的政府他在送簡訊以及其他私訊的傳達的時候都可以很容易的被辨識"},{"start":11203.82,"end":11223.443,"text":"所以不是只有數位部自己或中央機關而已是同時讓所有的包含國營、事業、社會這第1件我們已經發了所有機關加起來570多萬則出去年底會有1億則這第1個數據那第二個呢我們現在透過我們電子簽章法這個修法已經送到貴院我們現在如果經濟部把這個廣告的主管機關過來的話"},{"start":11224.404,"end":11243.611,"text":"我們就可以希望能夠重現我們在電商這邊我們電商這邊在一年多前是高風險賣場在165大概都是我們主管的大型電商現在已經歸零5個月了這第二個數據我其實我另外更關心的是說這幾年間其實我們最關心的這幾年間中華民國國人最關心的是不是能夠成功的打擊詐騙"},{"start":11245.812,"end":11262.651,"text":"唐部長你說你們落實行政院新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版但是老實講本席實在看不出來你們真正的成效在哪裡尤其是說你們通報的通報數從1、2年單月最高1600件下降到今年1月份的時候已經到每月200件這遊戲點數"},{"start":11264.753,"end":11269.896,"text":"這是遊戲點數,你剛那個數據是遊戲點數遊戲點數,那其實這個數據來講的話你說台灣的詐欺人說台灣的受詐騙通報人數只會有兩百千嗎?那是遊戲點數嗎?是我們主管的各個行業裡面的某一個OK,好,那我想請問你們這數據從哪裡來的?這個當然是從165啊,就是遊戲點數跟電話的平台所以說其實是有通報兩百項"},{"start":11290.657,"end":11309.443,"text":"其實委員可能了解就是說現在不管電商還是遊戲點數因為我們這個聯防成功已經不是詐騙集團最愛用的方式了老實說我其實在這邊想要問請問一件事比較像傳理學上的事情就是所謂錯誤的政策比貪污更可怕這件事唐部長您是否認同"},{"start":11310.363,"end":11329.052,"text":"您若是指這個數位身份證的話,我相信這個政策它在推行的時候是因為社會上有更多的期待。請問講起來不是說這錯誤政策,政策面錯誤與否,這我不敢講。只是說數位身份證畢竟來講無論如何嘎然而止。然後目前來講沒有任何一個政府官員為此件事來說,來說聲道歉。花了2.8億,內政部長說這不是賠償,這是耗損的金額。"},{"start":11336.596,"end":11354.028,"text":"然後沒有一個沒有一個官員為這個錯誤的決策做出任何負責道歉而且最後面還是說好像最後面感覺好像是我們這些政府官員們還是有功的那將損耗降到最低然後全民應該給你們拍拍手是嗎這是你們覺得這樣子最後面的態度嗎"},{"start":11354.888,"end":11368.543,"text":"我先正面回答委員的問題我不認為說當時回應社會上面對於專法跟獨立各自會的需求這件事情表示本來的政策就是像您剛講嘎然而止是說我們要先回應社會上對這兩個的需求"},{"start":11370.404,"end":11373.046,"text":"請問部長您到底認為說數位身份證這件事到底是好還是不好?那未來會再執行嗎?要執行如何執行?"},{"start":11386.799,"end":11412.672,"text":"我想身份證這個現在大家用的這個版本他在防衛上面現在碰到非常大的挑戰這個是絕對需要解決的這第一點第二個如果是內政部在換發身份證的時候同時給予自然人憑證的這個選項這個是屬於內政部的權責但是第三個我想在個資會不會因為這樣子被政府收集太多或目的外利用等等需要一個專法跟一個獨立個資會當年民間的這兩個訴求我也是贊成的"},{"start":11414.991,"end":11432.335,"text":"好,那唐部長其實我們都知道說今年的數位部預算多了今天將近多三分之一那足足18億的預算當然在我記得新聞報道上面寫說我們數位發展部的經費雖然多三分之一但是在14個部會裡面還是比較便宜的據說有其他部會的業務會移轉過來請問具體有哪些業務移轉到了數位發展部為什麼移轉過來"},{"start":11443.355,"end":11460.554,"text":"如果現在是從現在往未來講的話我們最重要的一個就是剛才講到的網路的廣告平台業我們爭取從經濟部移過來經濟部已經初步表示同意當然行政院還要做最後的這個裁奪那過來之後我們對Facebook對於Google才具有目的事業主管機關的這個權利"},{"start":11462.436,"end":11490.275,"text":"為什麼問到這個原因就是在這裡因為還是回到全國國人現在最關心的是如何遏止詐騙如何讓詐騙犯能夠獲得應有的懲罰然後如何遏止預防詐騙再度發生而如果這個粉絲專頁是這個粉絲專頁沒有藍勾勾那基本上沒有這個Blue Check就表示說這不是我本身的專頁而這個粉絲專頁現在還在我剛剛在下面在被選的時候我發現這一個假帳號還在"},{"start":11492.196,"end":11513.077,"text":"而再的原因是因為說我1月13日當選國會議員1月18日這個甲反專就成立而到目前為止我已經有甚至這個人數現在還在加那我們也沒有辦法去支持他現在剛剛前一秒10分鐘之內他還在上面那我想像這樣的問題已經不是只有我個人的問題所有的國會議員所有的名人像這樣的名人詐騙已經變成是一個"},{"start":11515.079,"end":11525.453,"text":"詐騙集團最喜歡利用、利用名人的關懷來去操作的目的來去引誘這些不知道的人那想請問唐部長數位發展部在未來如何遏止跟協助打擊此等犯罪行為"},{"start":11526.417,"end":11549.387,"text":"委員講得非常好如果未來我們真的成為網路廣告業的主管機關而且在大院支持底下電子簽章法新版可以三讀通過那我們接下來會做的事情就是會透過數位簽章的方式來驗證說這個人他是不是真的跟您同名同姓或者跟誰同名同姓這樣子那這件事情就可以有效的把這種假冒名人的好評票投資廣告等等可以減到最低"},{"start":11549.887,"end":11568.318,"text":"那現在呢?我現在是完全受害者,不是以國會議員身份之外,還是以一個受害者身份在這邊講這件事情。如果今天不是我有國會殿堂的這個平台可以發聲的話,其他很多人像我一樣的人是無法在這個機會跟數位發展部來去講說我們該怎麼辦的。"},{"start":11569.258,"end":11586.048,"text":"那請問如果現在該怎麼做呢?我們現在是協助165就是刑事局那邊跟這些大的平台有一個快速的通道所以還是要到165的網站或者是到警察去檢舉我也同意這並不是源頭防止的做法這就是為什麼我們要推數位簽章法、電子簽章法以及請經濟部把廣告主管機關移過來"},{"start":11586.949,"end":11615.518,"text":"部長如果說是今天如果是我我是國會議員我有機會跟你這樣講說你有165講到之後然後未來這邊的中央政府會因為我的案子去辦特案辦理但是如果一般的民眾遇到這樣的狀況他是求助我們的時候該怎麼辦這是165的LINE你也可以看到說這邊有點進去這邊另外還有另外一個平台點進去之後另外一個平台會轉送把他們轉送到別的地方去再去做另外一方面的不管是口號也好還是話術上面的剝削那我想請問這個時候你該怎麼去防治呢"},{"start":11616.118,"end":11618.959,"text":"我們去年已經下架了幫助刑事局下架了三萬多件所以這個點擊連到國外網站你會看到被165扣押這件事情這個是我們有做的"},{"start":11638.985,"end":11665.225,"text":"但是我也很同意說光是這樣子是不夠因為這個還不是源頭嘛這個是後面的部分還是要有人發現所以我們現在有做主動的掃描去專門掃描說還沒有被害人的情況下我們先掃到看起來像仿冒的等等我希望這個事情數位發展部未來不知道說唐部長您會不會還在任但是不管怎麼樣數位發展部在未來針對科技詐騙這件事情我覺得應該把它放在first priority源頭房價絕對我們first priority好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":11667.284,"end":11672.831,"text":"好,林委員發言完畢,現在請何欣淳委員發言。謝謝昭緯,那我們請唐鳳部長。請唐部長。"},{"start":11685.537,"end":11711.126,"text":"委員好部長好我想今天很多委員跟本席我一樣都聚焦在這個打詐那打詐呢我想我們國家隊第一部在小英總統曾經也參加過這個一個您主辦的一個典禮就是政府111短碼簡訊系統那現在呢111政府專屬的短碼簡訊系統這個平台已經啟用了那現在目前多少個政府單位採購"},{"start":11711.872,"end":11729.619,"text":"已經70多個機關採購了到年底我們會預期大概會發1億折出去他們採購的大概快2000萬折目前才前3年我現在我拿到的資料比如說我希望數位發展部是不是可以再用各式各樣多元的方式去宣傳、宣導"},{"start":11731.98,"end":11748.507,"text":"教導民眾如何快速的辨別那像我在這個頁面上一個111那當時候是由小英總統參加平台啟用的時候他發出來第一通那在提醒大家牢記111政府專屬的簡訊短碼"},{"start":11751.91,"end":11762.545,"text":"我再請教一次因為要講清楚很多人還是不了解那111這一個三個數字有可能再被copy仿冒嗎?"},{"start":11763.311,"end":11787.341,"text":"不可能,我們不管是國內為何不可能,你要講清楚對,謝謝我們一般人申請一個手機號碼用它來傳簡訊一定是09什麼什麼它是10個號碼那如果是國際的就更長它會加多少多少那在我們這邊的短碼一開頭的只有政府機關可以來使用所以111這個短碼就好像165一樣也不會有人能夠冒充165"},{"start":11789.182,"end":11805.112,"text":"短碼一開頭的只有政府機關可以來申請那其他單位都不能申請對不對所以我們要讓民眾知道這一個重要的訊息這個111的短碼是不可能被申請也不可能被copy所以"},{"start":11806.393,"end":11835.032,"text":"僅此一家就是政府的簡訊平台委員講得太好了就是用紙板的話要讓一般的我們的民眾瞭解他才會幫忙宣傳那也才能有助於我們為什麼要用這個平台嘛那我另外一個要求我希望更多的政府單位相關單位國營事業都要加入我現在有看到兩個是跟我們民生最相關的兩個體系還沒有加入"},{"start":11836.073,"end":11857.2,"text":"一個叫做天然氣公司一個叫做各公司的銀行體系這個來部長第一個天然氣公司是我們退伏會轉投資可不可以請我們事務發布主動跟退伏會來商量來推動所有全國25家的天然氣公司通通加入"},{"start":11857.62,"end":11879.147,"text":"我們可以來主動推動這個共同供應企業看是不是有哪個政府機關當作他們的總代表先從跟一般人生活最相關的這個角度來想起哪些是跟人民生活最相關的政府單位跟國營事業或是相關的體系所以水電再來天然氣再來銀行"},{"start":11883.111,"end":11897.049,"text":"關股的銀行當然我們請財政部可以來幫忙我們民間的銀行民營的銀行也可以請財政部請銀行公會來幫忙大家一起來使用這樣子的一個平台"},{"start":11897.87,"end":11913.526,"text":"可不可以部長民營的銀行以我所知現在他們在想的是另外再用他自己的短盤因為一開頭是表示是政府發的好那如果一開始表示是政府發的那他們銀行體系國營、關股銀行可不可以加入"},{"start":11913.986,"end":11937.634,"text":"這個我們就是用共同供應契約的方式我們盡快來協定那你說的民營銀行沒有辦法用一開頭的簡訊短碼那他另外創一個系統我們在宣傳的力道上是不是都要讓民眾能夠簡單直接就認知知道說這是真的不是假的我想像55688就不是一開頭現在大家都認得了所以我覺得還是短碼這件事情也是可以宣傳的"},{"start":11938.134,"end":11953.896,"text":"好那所以第一個跟退府會商量所有的天然氣公司這個你要去好好的研究一下要去邀他們加入喔第二個我們的關國銀行那明明銀行另外一個體系我們又如何跟銀行公會去要求去"},{"start":11954.577,"end":11974.617,"text":"合作我覺得這很重要我們盡快辦理而且會書面跟委員說我希望是越來越多啦越來越多啦能夠呢建立我們111的這個簡訊平台這叫什麼這也品牌啦對啊就讓民眾知道說這是真的啊你剛剛說僅此一家嘛別無分號僅此一家別無分號啦所以這是真的不是假的啦好不好來第二個"},{"start":11976.939,"end":11997.449,"text":"這兩天大家無啥啥而且搞不清楚狀況Meta大當機甚至連美國政府的關係都緊張短短的那兩個小時我相信很多人都不知道發生什麼事連我自己也不知道為什麼我的這個FB不能用我的帳號被登出部長"},{"start":11998.65,"end":12014.572,"text":"你有沒有站在一般的民眾用戶的感受一下說我被害了是不是我的資料有沒有全部消失了我現在要去哪裡問問個出個所以然來在發生的當下沒有人可以問你知道這件事嗎部長"},{"start":12015.453,"end":12042.245,"text":"我知道這件事而且那是因為我平常有在用X.com就以前的Twitter所以臉書的人還要跑去Twitter上面解釋發生什麼事情對所以最後是由Twitter這邊的X上面才知道這個狀況啊對不對那所以包括IG臉書然後Trade通通甚至還有其他的通通都不能用平台那我就請教一下因為呢這個Meta在台灣沒有落地那如果發生像這樣的事情我們找誰"},{"start":12044.525,"end":12058.109,"text":"在台灣其實是有落地的公司是有落地那接下來就問你了接下來來下一頁那因為這一次的事件聽說祖克伯的淨資產損失了880億但是呢我們消失了那兩個小時所有搭檔機的那兩個小時我們所有的用戶的損失誰來賠償要找誰賠償"},{"start":12065.791,"end":12079.265,"text":"我說的損失不是我們個人在使用也許沒有盈利行為那很多人是用這個平台在盈利做生意在生活的請問那怎麼辦你這是你是專家嘛你可以告訴我怎麼辦"},{"start":12084.489,"end":12110.537,"text":"我想我們現在在跟內政部一起跟各部會一起在你一個叫做打詐的就是專法名字還沒有確定了在這裡面就是在講這些達到一定規模當然臉書已經達到不管什麼規模他都達到了達到一定規模的這個境外的這個廣告平台他必須不是只是設代理人而已還必須要在您剛剛關心的這一些包含他的這個消費者保護防詐等等這一方面要盡到一定的義務"},{"start":12111.417,"end":12135.235,"text":"那這部分我們之前一個挑戰就是說經濟部到目前為止雖然他原德答應但是還沒有真的把廣告平台業的目的數的主管機關移給我們所以我們現在是比較是側面瞭解的狀況那一旦那現在的主管機關是誰那我去找他因為廣告業其實之前沒有分成網路或者是實體所以包含燈箱、扛棒什麼這些東西他登記的時候都還是登記在經濟部商業署"},{"start":12135.896,"end":12156.301,"text":"可是這樣子的一個邏輯是一個好像遠古時代的邏輯欸我們現在台灣已經進步到21世紀了我們的網路世界都已經到上太空了我們的法規制度怎麼還在這樣子的遠古時代本來我們也要把防火電跟電商應該分開嘛 對不對我們政府部門的腳步不夠快嘛"},{"start":12156.841,"end":12186.021,"text":"我們是主動跟經濟部要求我們最近像那個電商的部分我們跟經濟部談妥了我們就說那可不可以盡快就把這個也是同樣無實體網路平台廣告趕快給我們這樣所以第一個請跟經濟部講那現在這個狀況那我的球場我用戶的權益誰來政府可以幫我們人民主張什麼那我們可以讓我們人民知道說欸你如果因為這一次的這一個這個兩個小時消失不見的大蕩機而損失的這個"},{"start":12187.882,"end":12201.51,"text":"該由誰來主張該向誰主張我覺得這個是政府應該有的責任第二個我跟你講我更害怕的是什麼你看到這個標題這個全球大宕機的原因不尋常有三個組織宣稱是他們聯手發動攻擊"},{"start":12206.013,"end":12222.807,"text":"那你看喔全球最高端的這個駭客供給可以讓Meta集團裡面的平台當機了兩個多小時甚至連美國政府都要出面來關心瞭解這是一件非常非常"},{"start":12224.829,"end":12237.924,"text":"非常非常重要是不是所以這裡就是我一直要求我們政府的各個單位不管是在防詐或者是在平台的所有用戶的權益上我們的資安所以你剛剛講的電子簽章法我只提醒一個"},{"start":12238.985,"end":12239.165,"text":"謝謝何委員"},{"start":12265.647,"end":12277.28,"text":"委員發言完畢現在請徐巧欣委員發言謝謝主席我們請唐部長請唐部長委員好"},{"start":12282.541,"end":12305.08,"text":"部長好我想我們本來對數位發展部的想像很多比方說遠端工作、線上開會、線上參與國際會議等等結果沒想到我們的數位發展部的發展好像比其他的單位還要更加的傳統不只被批評花了太多錢出國我們還發現你們花了非常多的錢租用辦公室"},{"start":12305.96,"end":12315.507,"text":"從民國111年8月27日掛牌至今一年半左右我問一下我們的部長我們光是辦公室的搬遷預算總共花了多少錢?"},{"start":12316.828,"end":12320.969,"text":"您說是做簡單的室內裝潢嗎?簡單的室內裝潢齁?那我們整體的包含星光跟顏品我們的裝潢費花了多少錢?"},{"start":12338.895,"end":12352.593,"text":"您這個已經寫在這上面了所以嘛,你看喔,成立1.5年,我們呢整體包含是租金,包含是辦公室的裝修我們花了預算就4.09億,決算是3.9億欸唐鳳部長你會不會覺得這個經費太高了"},{"start":12357.659,"end":12378.592,"text":"不過我們向上集中的積房本來在積房一次性的建置本來各部會積房那我問一個問題我們數位發展部的會議室跟新聞發布室的採購花了多少錢上面有寫但我希望你可以自己講出來是因為我們本來的那個新聞會議室就是用NCC的那不管是麥克風啊收音啊等等大概都有一些要"},{"start":12379.472,"end":12399.669,"text":"麥克風跟收音我問的是我們光是會議室跟新聞發布室花了多少錢您剛剛黃底的這邊是一千萬嘛一千萬然後再加上追加這個65嘛65所以花了一千多萬只做了新聞發布室跟會議室你剛剛說麥克風具體來說這一千萬花到哪裡去了跟大家做個說明吧是"},{"start":12400.349,"end":12426.367,"text":"因為我們本來的用NCC的那個新聞發佈室如果是要做遠距的會議的時候它有包含這個麥克風收音回收還有它的音場等等的問題所以我們發現這個問題之後我們就一次性的把它更新成比較新的設備麥克風換了多少的麥克風你們有幾間會議室啊新聞發佈室跟會議室上面這個花了一千多萬的總共幾間它是在一樓裡面的我們開大的會議的一間然後跟旁邊新聞發佈室另外一間兩個是對面"},{"start":12427.148,"end":12443.71,"text":"只有兩間花一千多萬還有一個記者的這個等待室就三間吧記者的等待室裡面的麥克風等等的也都要重做不只是麥克風包含視訊設備嗎視訊設備但是那為什麼你們現在開會的時候常常你都是自己你們大家預算花了這麼多飛出國去開會"},{"start":12444.531,"end":12469.176,"text":"我也沒很早看到你們說線上會議裡面去做什麼今天大家質疑的是你們不只是花了很多的錢出國開會編了這麼多的預算我們就連只是會議室、新聞發布室兩間我算你三間花一千多萬我回應一下委員我在出國的時候其實公文是照簽我視訊會議照開並不是因為出國所以就不管國內的事情所以這是為什麼需要這種設備"},{"start":12470.676,"end":12492.985,"text":"所以你的意思是說別的單位都沒有這樣子的一個問題我在問一下我們在這個自由民主聯盟的這個出席上面那我們有參加這個自由線上聯盟去年9月20號那因應新技術帶來的風險等等你說AI的應用規範要這個社會同樣的推動然後呢講了很多那我請問一下"},{"start":12493.945,"end":12510.636,"text":"你們在國外說了這麼多AI管制我們在台灣具體目前的法規裡面你們已經推動通過了哪幾項AI相關的管制法規這裡的我們如果是講整個政府的話那在台灣在投資詐騙上面在身為的這個色情影像上面"},{"start":12511.016,"end":12531.63,"text":"在選舉的干預上面等等都有專門針對身為或不一定是身為任何AI去做這一方面的加重處罰那為什麼我們在台灣的資安的問題還這麼多、詐騙的問題還這麼多但是我們卻到國外去跟大家講說我們做了哪一些的相關的這些AI的法規推定但是我們在台灣發現是少的可憐"},{"start":12532.31,"end":12556.853,"text":"我們剛剛講到的這些在其他國家也未必有這第一個第二個像電子簽商法的修法我們已經提到立法院來了很多其他國家也未必有那也是我們董文君委員提了之後現在才跟進的我問一下自由民主聯盟我們是不是有你們有一行人15個人去去開會這個就包含就是美國的國務卿布林肯嗎或者是自由民主聯盟參與的這個目標裡面哪一點跟數位發展有關"},{"start":12558.274,"end":12584.423,"text":"欸 這這裡面講的就是要保護線上的因為AI帶來的身為的威脅啊 這個就是數位的工作啊你們當時所提的計畫的目的叫做參與推動民主合作組織展現台灣跟國際推動民主事務的堅定決心你們都沒有談到所謂的數位沒有 我的意思是說你們今天數位發展部去的應該要上面的目的說明就要跟數位發展的內容有關突然的話我們就補助其他的單位去或者是外交部去不就好了嗎"},{"start":12585.143,"end":12607.578,"text":"但是民主峰會特別是第二次討論就是怎麼因應聲稱是AI啊那你們在寫報告的時候你們目的上面你就應該把這些內容都寫進來而不是讓大家認為說你們花了太多的錢出國但是都沒有做跟數位發展有關的事情這點請你們要必須要改進當然我們會盡可能的來強調好 謝謝謝謝好 許委員發言完畢現在請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":12621.621,"end":12638.615,"text":"主席請唐部長請唐部長委員好部長好在我的選區那有一個本來有一個南門的中繼市場他花了1.8億蓋起來"},{"start":12641.092,"end":12656.404,"text":"但南門市場改建完成之後因為東門市場的也有改建的需求就很希望能夠搬到這個南門市場中繼站嘛結果後來這個我們的中央政府就是不同意"},{"start":12657.372,"end":12677.106,"text":"他就說不行我要把這個南門市場的中繼站拆掉就在南門市場中繼站的隔壁1.8億的拆掉再花個幾千萬蓋一個新的東門市場中繼站你會覺得這事好像跟你沒有關係對不對因為我們沒有要去那邊可是你們行政院回答我是什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":12678.305,"end":12701.224,"text":"他說因為東門市場中繼站那個南門市場中繼站拆掉以後要做蘇發部的辦公大樓應該是去年今年1月已經確定我們是到行二了我跟今天我們行部長說得太好了那行政人在騙我啊當時那是當時的狀況我們今年是因為行二 結果當時的狀況你搞了半天我只問你嘛南門市場中繼站如果給東門市場可以省多少錢省1.8億吧"},{"start":12703.246,"end":12730.645,"text":"那是我們現在被配到的因為我們都是聽行政院的安排喂 你不要那麼緊張我講的不是你我要講的是什麼你蓋辦公室的名聲已經響亮到還要逼著南門市場中繼站拆掉雖然說最後你沒決定在那更好笑你沒有決定在那結果最後還是要拆掉你已經名聲響亮到行政院是拿要蓋速發部辦公大樓為由"},{"start":12732.56,"end":12753.662,"text":"就把南門市場中基站拆掉在隔壁我那時候就說你要蓋為什麼不蓋在隔壁你既然隔壁就是那個地也是國有的為什麼剛剛徐曉鑫講到你的辦公室我跟我們的部長說你們叫數位發展部對不對我看你叫出國發展部好了"},{"start":12754.69,"end":12780.063,"text":"你叫辦公室發展部好了你叫點面先發展部好了你叫數位中介法發展部好了我在問你齁剛南門市場中繼站已經是一個例子齁你的辦公室蓋到出名齁結果害政府公帑1.8億為了你拆掉結果你竟然也沒搬那第二個我要問你啦我想請問你現在大家很關心的那個數位身份證的事情你怎麼看"},{"start":12781.127,"end":12801.599,"text":"剛剛有提到啊就是當時民間的要求是要獨立的個資會跟內政部如果要推要訂專法搞了半天賠了2.8億請問是誰出當然以內政部的跟工程會的這個仲裁納稅人出啦那麼簡單沒有關係你知道你的任內當中齁說真的很多人都搞不清楚我們到底書發部在幹什麼沒錯吧"},{"start":12803.067,"end":12816.317,"text":"沒錯啊,很多民眾搞不清楚啊大家應該,好比像說領大家,大家你的政績有一個大家搞得很清楚大家領六千的時候大家應該知道大家可能知道你的點面現發展部做得很好那個有五萬多個中小的商家請問什麼時候要結束"},{"start":12817.782,"end":12842.128,"text":"五萬多家什麼時候你的點面線平台要結束啦沒有那個平台是轉型去做包含像長照醫療阿等等阿轉型就是今天平台停校的最好的理由啦你3月就要告終了啦然後呢申請率就是三個百分點不能這樣算你是把所有的公司沒關係你要美化數字你提個報告給我我要再跟您說齁"},{"start":12843.803,"end":12862.937,"text":"大家在批評你的出國發展部我想請教您您112年參加27場國際會議跟一場考察嘛 對不對你知道出國寫報告這件事情嘛 對不對外交部寫多少報告出國報告你知道嗎外交部寫13個出國報告"},{"start":12865.199,"end":12889.894,"text":"我們數位發展部真的很適合當外交部啦你寫了26個報告 對不對當然你說報告多你覺得是比較勤勞啦 對不對一時外交部就不勤勞我要告訴你的是今天大家期待數位發展部民眾最期待你做什麼事情就是跨國建立防炸或者是防潮非常好你主動講到防炸了我跟你講你知道嗎"},{"start":12891.155,"end":12914.298,"text":"我的臉書被冒名使用已經十幾次了請問你怎麼解決這個問題啊?要通過電子槍法的修法並且把廣告的主板機對啦都推給未來你部長當幾年了?我們電子槍法已經送到立法院了不是未來啊啊?已經送到立法院你當幾年部長了?一年半一年半部長民進黨執政幾年了?八年八年了"},{"start":12915.66,"end":12938.595,"text":"那你現在跟我講那你跟林國成講說人民如果覺得防詐不利是這是政治壓力這是什麼政治壓力啊?就是民意的壓力啊當然了這就是人民對你不滿的壓力跟政治壓力什麼關係?訴發部再來問你數位中介法現在怎麼樣?誰推的?數位中介法從頭到尾都是NCC在討論的一個案子啊對啊以上好謝謝"},{"start":12942.15,"end":12957.922,"text":"努委員發言完畢現在請李坤成委員發言謝謝主席我們請部長請唐部長委員好部長好"},{"start":12963.974,"end":12980.113,"text":"今天早上媒體大家也很關心就是說關於防炸跟打炸這部分然後部長的回答就是說速發部門的防炸已經有很多的肯定但我認為這可以當作內部的激勵跟鼓勵但是"},{"start":12980.814,"end":13005.251,"text":"跟民眾的一般的期待還是有落差啦。部長你覺得咧?我們前面有講是在我們主管的電商等等方面有一個前提。政府是一體的。政府是一體的。就是說今天這一個防詐打詐這個速發部、內政部、法務部、金管會都有這個責任。所以這個政府是一體的。是聯防。對啊對啊對啊。所以說你自己覺得說你做得很好那是說其他做不好。"},{"start":13006.343,"end":13035.549,"text":"我們是要主動的接過責任像網路廣告我們主動跟經濟部說要不要交給我們來負責就是說現在大家對於這個打炸防炸這個東西是大家都很關心大家也期待說這個速發部能夠做更多的事情這是大家一個期待那你說做得不錯那當然是你業務的部分但是我相信跟民眾的整體的這個期待還是有點落差這個我這個請這個部長大概再想一下那請那個請教一下這個部長"},{"start":13036.509,"end":13050.188,"text":"現在國人最關心的這個三大網路的這個國安的問題齁,包含這個網路詐騙、網路的假新聞、網路的駭客的攻擊齁,那請問一下這個速發部的這個業務報告裡面,這個有哪一個問題沒有琢磨到的?"},{"start":13051.625,"end":13069.963,"text":"當然駭客攻擊是我們資安的主則所以我們寫了非常多關於這方面的事情防詐的部分是源頭防詐來處理那當然因為您提到新聞這個字新聞是新聞業那我們並不是新聞業的主管機關對那所以說假新聞這部分打擊假新聞這部分也不關訴發部的責任業務範疇囉"},{"start":13074.167,"end":13098.628,"text":"因為這個主要還是我們看到的是境外的訊息公式 這個公式它不一定是用新聞的形式來做當然啦 那不一定是新聞的方式 有很多的方式啦它也不一定是假的 它很多是激化仇恨 激化對立 激化什麼它用個人評論的方法做 因此無關真假 但是它讓看到的人心裡非常不舒服但是個人評論也有關 也有假訊息參加在裡面 這也有可能的啊"},{"start":13099.188,"end":13101.29,"text":"對,但是我的意思是說其實現在大部分不是這樣"},{"start":13129.188,"end":13145.678,"text":"不處理新聞是一種訊息嗎新聞也是訊息的一種啊所以我們是分析那個爭議的訊息不是去說他有沒有新聞價值他有沒有採訪報導我不是可以討論有沒有新聞價值就是說這個假新聞有可能是假訊息的一種啦對所以我們只要是爭議訊息先不管真假我們會去分析"},{"start":13146.098,"end":13174.941,"text":"那至於說實際去做事實查核或調查局去調查他們的那個認知戰研究中心等等我們免費的去提供這個工具讓他們來使用這個在速發部掛牌的時候蔡總統有給予許多任務那其中一項就是說這個為了因應境外勢力持續進行的複合式資訊作戰我們要打造更高層級的國家資安聯防體系沒錯這是蔡總統講的沒錯好那請問一下這個部長對這個總統的這一番的這個期許有什麼樣的看法對"},{"start":13176.082,"end":13199.283,"text":"我想總統的期許是說我們不能夠只侷限在對於資訊系統的攻擊包含完整性的、可用性、機密性的攻擊現在光是資訊本身不是資訊系統就是Facebook它就算不當機它在上面還是會有很多挑起堆立等等的這種訊息那尤其是透過廣告的方式如果我們不去阻擋的話我自己認為總統的這一番談話是對於說"},{"start":13203.286,"end":13224.765,"text":"如何面對境外勢力的假訊息進來啦那訴發部要怎麼做啦我還是要強調就是訊息公式大部分是靠不是假的訊息因為假的訊息已經有一套防治方法所以現在大概都是靠半真半假或根本就是真的個人評論去放大那個言論的仇恨所以我們現在是把它叫做訊息干預、訊息公式等等"},{"start":13225.185,"end":13246.404,"text":"沒關係,這是定義上的問題我是說訴發部要怎麼做的問題對,所以我們剛剛講了就是說如果它境外用一個一站式的網站在那邊冒充成好比方新聞網站好了我們去年這個狀況包含詐騙的狀況我們就下架了大概幫助檢警調下架了大概3萬多個我們成立前整年也不到3000個所以這部分我們一直都有聯防"},{"start":13247.465,"end":13272.761,"text":"部長那時候我有聽一段訪問就是說關於假訊息這方面第一個就是說我們有一個事實查核的機制去做處理另外一個呢你說這個可以用幽默來取代謠言就即時澄清啦我是說那當然是部長個人的處理方式但是我們關心的是整個速發部的這個處理方式那就是說我是希望未來速發部在"},{"start":13273.661,"end":13288.791,"text":"假訊息的處理這方面應該要更積極來做因為這也是當初這個總統在期許這個速發部掛牌的時候一個重要的內容但是我認為或是我看到目前所看到的關於這方面速發部是做的比較少啦或是說比較消極啦"},{"start":13289.971,"end":13317.379,"text":"對那這裡面有一個很很真正的問題就是因為沒有像電子簽章法的新的版本這樣子去確保說當初說這個人他是某某個年份出身的這個姓名怎麼樣沒有辦法去核實部長這個跟電子簽章法沒有絕對關係這個在國際上大家都發現只有靠數位簽章才能徹底解決這個問題這個我覺得不是只有電子簽章法的關係他當然他當然占一部分因素但是我認為是你們的心態的關係"},{"start":13319.239,"end":13319.359,"text":"謝謝部長、謝謝主席"},{"start":13347.418,"end":13351.802,"text":"李委員發言完畢,現在請陳冠廷委員發言請部長"},{"start":13369.219,"end":13384.628,"text":"大家好部長其實前天晚上我想大家應該都知道說這個重要的社群軟體突然有一些故障不信通的大型我們還有其他的通訊軟體但是在我們嘉義山區可能就沒有這麼的幸運"},{"start":13385.709,"end":13402.049,"text":"那我們台三線經過中補大補的部分路段是沒有手機訊號,完全沒有那有些時候會遇到受補者求救艱難這個問題我必須要強調我們是部長沒有說過會努力的跟電信業者合作來提供誘因改善便宜的計劃對,對"},{"start":13404.392,"end":13421.658,"text":"我們知道說數法部有建制大補箱防災行動通訊平臺網絡基地臺補助電車經濟經費已經有補助大補販路新建二站中華遠傳大哥大公共的基地臺工程預計在今年11月底動工請問有沒有這樣子的訊息部長有沒有掌握到這個訊息"},{"start":13425.472,"end":13444.58,"text":"剛剛這個司長是跟我說3月底就可以開通3月底就可以開通非常好這是給我們山區民眾非常重要的訊息那我們也是強烈的建議就是部長在其實可以統整我們不是只有單一個案那整個我們台灣本島就好了那很多山區它其實是過的一個路口"},{"start":13445.04,"end":13472.293,"text":"那其實基本上就收不到訊號那有些時候是由地方來去主動來去反饋然後希望能夠來強韌化這個部分那有些地方是沒有辦法反饋的因為曾經發生過事故但是就沒有辦法回應那都是有可能所以我們希望這樣子的部分請這個數位部能夠來去加強這部分的韌性能夠來協助那第二部分是智慧人才就是教育人才的培育那我們非常重視"},{"start":13473.413,"end":13494.251,"text":"部長你應該有聽過T大使計畫有,這我們數位青年很重要的計畫兩千位培訓培訓的這些人主要是在哪一個縣市比較多?六都還是非六都?以我所知我們一直都有一個做社會企業的專門的就是它即使是六都來的我們是派到非六都的地方需要做數位轉型的地方對,那我主要講"},{"start":13494.671,"end":13512.741,"text":"議員提到時的計畫就是說這樣子的訊息我覺得是必須要讓其他的非六都以外的縣市能夠有機會去得到這樣的重要的訊息因為還有很多相關的東西那比如說我們嘉義縣那一些鄉鎮那當然是我們是透過一些大專院校能夠提供這樣子的宣傳"},{"start":13513.541,"end":13531.493,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":13531.653,"end":13548.253,"text":"最後一個部分,我想時間是比較緊迫但是我還是覺得非常重要關於海底電纜基礎的通訊的建設這邊我們是有看到相關的信息還有我們一些數位部的一些官員有接受這些新聞的採訪"},{"start":13549.934,"end":13569.972,"text":"我必須要提醒說臺灣海底電纜在淡水、投誠等地方上岸那全世界都知道那也可能是我們的敵對力量的攻擊的目標選項所以我們現在除了透過分級上岸之外拉一些引力的登陸點之外速發部有沒有研擬其他強化海底電纜韌性的計畫?"},{"start":13572.234,"end":13595.797,"text":"其實分歧商案的意思就是說有些部分是外面知道的而其他的部分是就是不為外界所知那這個其實我們也還包含它的商案點把它變得比較強固比較難用一般的方式來破壞等等那除此之外如果海力電來真的碰到什麼問題的話那剛剛委員提到很多很偏鄉的地方其實商用衛星如果今年年底可以如期來提供服務的話衛星也是一個備援的選項"},{"start":13597.359,"end":13613.591,"text":"謝謝,那我們希望說先做好準備那這樣的準備我們可能不會遇到但是還是一定要做完整的任性上面的強固這是我想是數位部很重要的一個任務也希望部長朝這方面繼續努力你有萬全的準備我想境外敵對事宜就比較不敢攻擊謝謝"},{"start":13617.167,"end":13635.021,"text":"陳委員發言完畢。現在請蘇巧慧委員發言。蘇巧慧委員。蘇巧慧委員不在。現在請張家俊委員。張家俊委員。張家俊委員不在。現在請黃珊珊委員發言。請部長。"},{"start":13649.929,"end":13676.673,"text":"委員好謝謝主席謝謝部長昨天謝謝你來看我所以我們也交換了很多意見那這兩天大家看到就是我們內政部的所謂的數位身份證那要賠償業者2億8千萬的算是補償吧那當然你覺得它原來的問題是出在哪裡就是大家對於政府過度收集各職責會不會做目的外利用所以數位集權的這個大家會很擔心"},{"start":13677.173,"end":13703.084,"text":"也就是說在相關的個人資料保護跟政府的公權力的平衡上面我們忽略掉必須先有配套的法制作業還有嚴格的監管控制一個獨立的各自會嗎沒有錯所以對於接下來部長我們臺灣應該還是必須走向數位身份認證的道路對吧我們已經有自然憑證行動自然憑證等到"},{"start":13704.409,"end":13721.3,"text":"是的,自然憑證是其中一環嘛我最遠想說我們在疫情期間因為沒有數位身份證只能用最原始的健保卡來替代所謂的數位身份證那是因為這是公共使用啦但是如果是民間它比方商務使用健保卡是不能用是,所以我的意思是說"},{"start":13721.8,"end":13722.14,"text":"同意委員的說法"},{"start":13741.644,"end":13757.737,"text":"好,那我想這個部分是我昨天有跟部長說就是臺北通在臺北市政府推動的情況下他可以存活下來大概就是因為配套相關的做法我覺得這個部分你覺得將來有辦法做到臺灣通嗎?"},{"start":13760.46,"end":13786.61,"text":"我想在跟委員交換意見的時候我們也特別聽到包含像主計人員經費核銷等等那個是非常難突破的那確實我們現在就透過公共建設的方法來突破這種數位經費核銷等等那這部分我想是是在必行因為如果不這樣子推的話那就變成是一個民間的受補助的單位他光是隔一個橋不同的縣市不同服貼的這種方法是非常非常的麻煩"},{"start":13787.21,"end":13808.948,"text":"但這個倒不一定是用所謂app臺灣通的方式來做這個也可以用像行動責任憑證等等的方式反正就是說希望在臺灣的是其實應該是數位大國在有數發部的建制雖然你們成立不久但是我相信這個會是臺灣必須要跨出數位轉型最大的一步第一個要有相關的數位身份認證第二個"},{"start":13810.689,"end":13838.772,"text":"公部門應該以公代私引領臺灣走向數位轉型尤其是像公部門裡面的電子核銷還有電子公文這個目前大概只有幾個直轄市的城市有在做但是臺灣不應該感覺現在有那麼差那麼大的城鄉差距更落後這個麻煩這部長可能是你最重要的工作之一另外因為我昨天談到你剛剛我在司法法治委員會討論"},{"start":13840.393,"end":13840.573,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":13857.465,"end":13872.946,"text":"人民其實不在關心詐騙犯抓不抓得到人民關心的是詐騙的錢找不找得回來對吧因為現在大部分大部分的錢都找不回來所以即使抓到人他可能也是血本無悔"},{"start":13873.607,"end":13902.88,"text":"所以現在是資訊交換的速度要比詐騙集團他們轉帳的速度快才能夠抓得到人就表示要是機器對機器不能再用人的那種公文交換了沒錯所以其實我剛剛講除了銀行之外銀行已經現在有很嚴格的監管但是其實現在新興的部分叫做虛擬資產所以虛擬資產的交易平台我希望由數法部剛剛法務部我也講了我們希望政府來協助成立一個虛擬平台"},{"start":13903.36,"end":13916.597,"text":"因為現在所有的業者要自己對調查局、自己對刑事局、自己對派出所一個一個一層一層的通報另外他們通報的方式跑到165去非常非常的原始叫做傳證機"},{"start":13918.8,"end":13934.229,"text":"我們應該很多人很久沒有用過傳證器了所以我覺得這個部分是不是請數位發展部協助法務部成立區域資產的平台他們可以及時凍結裡面異常的帳戶因為他們其實也是有帳戶在做交易"},{"start":13935.349,"end":13959.678,"text":"我想委員的這個詢問我快速說明就是我們之前在輔導第三方支付的時候也碰過一模一樣的問題那後來是跟金管會還有165等等有一個聯方通報的平台包含即時查詢虛擬帳號後面是誰等等這個應該3月底就會做好那您剛提到VASP就是虛擬資產的部分當然是金管會管但是我會願意說因為這一套就是跟金管會一起建立起來的看看金管會怎麼樣引入這一套做法"},{"start":13959.858,"end":13961.959,"text":"黃委員發言完畢現在請翁曉琳委員發言主席有請部長大家好我是翁曉琳委員好"},{"start":13991.2,"end":13996.792,"text":"今天我在來這個詢問部長問題之前其實我也"},{"start":13998.938,"end":14020.612,"text":"閱讀了這個部長您這邊所提出來的報告我這裡呢我有幾個問題那麼特別是我對於數發部底下有一個我認為還蠻奇特的一個單位叫做民主網路司是那這個部分的話我是想請教就是民主網路司在從數發部成立之後他最主要的這個職務"},{"start":14022.613,"end":14041.461,"text":"他所做了些什麼事情是不是可以請部長可以非常簡短的這個向我說明一下民主網絡絲人跟人中間叫網絡電腦跟電腦中間叫網絡民主網絡絲就是透過我們參與國際的包含政府間以及非政府跟政府都參與所謂多方利害關係人的組織"},{"start":14042.421,"end":14067.226,"text":"去看最新的像電子簽章互相採認等等的這些新的技術上面的外交的做法它就可以突破像我們舊的電子簽章法說我們要跟對方簽一個條約啊什麼才能夠互認但是現在其實透過區塊鏈等等的方式我們技術互通就已經可以互認了它等於就是de facto事實上的變成一個互相承認的狀況那這種新的外交的做法就是我們民主網絡司的做法"},{"start":14067.639,"end":14085.138,"text":"好的謝謝因為我看到你們在網頁上面至少現在寫的民主網路司的業務範圍裡面它其實會涉及到各個不同的部會的業務譬如說您剛剛講的電子簽賬它也許是跟經濟部有關又或者是說您在這個又或者是在"},{"start":14086.939,"end":14114.891,"text":"這個業務範圍裡面有一項是涉及到所謂的近鄰策略等等那麼我只是想瞭解就是說當民主網絡司去推動這些業務的時候有跟其他的機關有共同做一些跨部會的聯絡嗎在你們要進行交流之前你們有做到這些事情嗎是當然有電子簽章法確實本來是經濟部主管不過現在已經移撥給我們了我們是電子簽章法的主管機關除了電子簽章法之外呢其他的呢"},{"start":14115.471,"end":14136.611,"text":"像您剛剛提到的數位淨零,就是透過國際的這種像區塊鏈的這種公正的單位去計算它、碳灰啊、淨零等等這種效益,這個部分當然像環境部或者是我們在國際經貿談判的時候跟經貿辦等等,這個都是我們民主網絡司持續在跟大家一起先彙整我們這邊的需求,然後再去爭取國外技術上面的對接。"},{"start":14138.233,"end":14154.492,"text":"我基本上認為說其實很多的業務應該是在其他機關處理就可以了是不是有真的要成立額外多成立一個民主網絡司的必要性就是我之後我也會持續關注這件事情那麼另外接下來就是想請教就是在你們計畫裡面"},{"start":14157.596,"end":14167.389,"text":"對在你們這次所提到報告書裏面其實主要是針對希望能夠提升113年的出國旅費可是事實上我們知道行政院"},{"start":14168.851,"end":14189.97,"text":"它有一個因公派員出國案件編審要點．裡面有特別強調出國人數、天數應該要力求精簡可是事實上你們在這個我們列舉了你們112年跟113年可能有一些都要重要去參加的會議但是你們的人數、天數、金額都擴編不知道這是什麼原因"},{"start":14190.988,"end":14215.042,"text":"感謝委員的詢問先講一個就是民主網絡司在別的部會會叫國際合作司或國際集團合作司所以各個部會都有這樣子的司只是我們是透過像剛剛提到的技術社群、公共城市的方式但是性質上還是跟外交有關這第一個第二個是說我們這邊所提到的就是像經濟合作、國際交流會議等等我們很多在去年的時候還沒有這些業務移撥過來"},{"start":14216.563,"end":14226.125,"text":"臺英的、臺歐盟的、臺美21世紀的等等這些談判那時候都還在國發會是今年才過來好謝謝因為我時間有限那另外我想請部長這邊是不是可以提供給我就是你在去年度所曾經簽過的MOU那麼同時也要請教就是這些MOU有沒有有送給外交部並且送到立法院來進行被查那這個部分的話是我希望部長可以提供"},{"start":14240.788,"end":14265.621,"text":"當然也包含像合作意向書或者是數位貿易支柱的關係協議等等就是跟MOU同性質的啦我們會提供給委員好的好那最後呢就是有關於就是這個在2000年的時候應該是當時有發布一個公務機關禁用Zoom這個還是我想有資訊顯示說他在當時有受到境外敵對實力實質控制"},{"start":14266.698,"end":14267.119,"text":"我是用瀏覽器"},{"start":14282.028,"end":14285.69,"text":"就是Zoom它就算你沒有那個安裝Zoom的軟體你可以用瀏覽器開一個視窗我還是開在無痕虛擬機裡面然後是透過那個網頁連到攝影機好那這個技術的話麻煩請你們也可以告訴我們對因為我相信很多大家不知道會認為說你就是在用Zoom為什麼我們一般老百姓不可以就是"},{"start":14304.582,"end":14306.363,"text":"王委員發言完畢 現在請洪孟楷委員發言謝謝"},{"start":14334.045,"end":14336.611,"text":"主席麻煩請唐鳳部長請唐部長好部長好部長"},{"start":14344.611,"end":14365.603,"text":"在1月初的時候本席很訝異啊看到有這個平面媒體連兩天的報導都對訴發部都對您個人有很多的一個批評啊那尤其是這個是在我們不管講是說這個政治氛圍來講的話很多人都講說是不是唐鳳部長這個位置做得不太穩了不過本席"},{"start":14366.603,"end":14388.312,"text":"對於你們這些官派到底要誰留誰不留沒有那麼多的興趣我比較在乎的是當一天和尚、挑一天忠為人民服務我覺得這比較重要那其中我今天早上看到你有接受媒體報導還是詢問講說防詐已經有很多肯定速發布防詐很多肯定"},{"start":14389.312,"end":14404.407,"text":"會不會覺得自己活在平行時空跟人民的距離太遠啊?我先想請教一下你知道去年的詐騙數跟詐騙量是創新高嗎?總體的增長已經到了歷年來最高的不管是財損數或是案件數"},{"start":14410.543,"end":14437.55,"text":"那已經有那麼多的一個案件都持續的一個升高的一個情況下你說有很多肯定你的利基點來源是哪裡?就是我們所主管的電商的 有做民調嗎?電商的部分 有做民調嗎?電商的部分已經連續5個月沒有出現在165的高層前賣地 有沒有民調人民的感受還是說你的利基點在哪裡?還是說就是在同溫層裡面大家都說哇部長好棒棒"},{"start":14437.83,"end":14453.488,"text":"我們是在用165的通報訊息那是一個客觀的數據就是我們主管的電商或遊戲點數或什麼都大幅下降甚至高風險賣場是歸零欸不是 我們現在講的是說很多肯定我想要問的是肯定是別人給你的還是你自己評估給自己的"},{"start":14456.012,"end":14467.908,"text":"國人對於速發部我就說了從過去到現在我們一直強調每次提到速發部這一點我們不想講但是國人每次提到速發部你要不要問看民間或說問一下你不是童文成的朋友"},{"start":14469.438,"end":14485.081,"text":"問一下一般的老百姓訴發部一年多了將近兩年的時間了你對於訴發部最有感的政策是哪一個你知道訴發部最近過去推的這前十大的政策是什麼你知道訴發部最近做了什麼事情"},{"start":14486.503,"end":14506.317,"text":"要不要去做一下要不要去不要再自我感覺良好了要不要自己真的好好的離開辦公室真的走入民間每一個政務官都不是神每一個政務官都不是說自己在位那一天就高高在上然後只想聽自己想要聽的然後完全不管人民的心聲完全不管人民的感受"},{"start":14507.438,"end":14531.62,"text":"我覺得這才是今天部長本席為什麼今天一定要來跟您做一個質詢跟當面來跟你提醒就是因為我認為現在民進黨政府的官員最嚴重的事情就是每一個人都活在自己的平行時空裡面好像因為老百姓是脫節的當你看到是說今天新聞出來說速發布打詐大家很多肯定的時候你覺得人民心理感受是什麼"},{"start":14532.682,"end":14539.64,"text":"當他的那個詐騙的案件數越來越高當他的詐騙結果越來越多當你生活周遭有沒有朋友被詐騙"},{"start":14541.795,"end":14564.834,"text":"您的生活周遭有沒有朋友被詐騙?所以本席想要強調的就是不要自我感覺良好我覺得這一點才是最重要的事情這一點才是真真正正讓國人覺得是說沒有辦法接受不管我說實在話你說速發部今天編列預算3000萬要出國出差3000萬對於整體的這個預算來講"},{"start":14567.296,"end":14567.316,"text":"好"},{"start":14596.616,"end":14617.919,"text":"不要讓20多萬則才回收1000多份你看光這個事情我就直覺覺得就是人民都對於這個簡訊都不敢點開啦部長自己也講了嘛20多萬則明明是我們官方發出的20多萬則才回收1000多則你都好意思拿出來講我都不好意思說了目前陸續在回收回收率多少有沒有算過"},{"start":14618.419,"end":14645.773,"text":"這就代表是說國人都對於這種簡訊都覺得很莫名簡訊來路不明的簡訊都不敢點開了結果部長居然洋洋自喜站在這裡覺得是說這個是一個政績部長本期真的很希望因為數位發展部是當初我們也期待的部會但是快兩年的時間如果說這樣的話我真的對於數位發展部以及對你的去留我感到非常的擔憂"},{"start":14647.165,"end":14673.051,"text":"部長最後一分鐘的時間我其實簡單請教一個問題我之前有看過北市警說採購相關的這個密錄器配中國電線那速發部說零組件各單位自行評估這是2023年算不算核心元件這部分是那我想請教就到底說密錄器這一個部分這個是真的因為很多的產品其實都是Made in China"},{"start":14673.571,"end":14687.62,"text":"這無庸置疑因為畢竟很多時候會有那有些時候採購的時候我們那時候也有討論過說有資安疑慮的比如說螢幕、顯示器如果說它真的是Made in China那到底會不會如果說它沒有通訊的一個功能它沒有連接斷網可以使用"},{"start":14690.342,"end":14712.441,"text":"那他到底會不會有資安疑慮?就是在斷網的情況下使用的話可以阻絕大部分的供給但是我們還是希望他盡快的來汰換啦是那我想請教說那到底就有一些電子產品好那不要講說螢幕的部分講說有些電子產品他根本沒有就是連接網路的設備沒有通訊的設備沒有通訊的功能那個東西會不會有資安疑慮?"},{"start":14713.289,"end":14741.757,"text":"如果它是會附著透過USB附著在電腦上等等那個就有額外的可能性但如果它是完全斷網使用的話比較不會從外面被攻擊對我現在講就是說如果說這一個產品它是譬如說像密錄器錄影的部分它是只有錄影它沒有任何的這個連接的功能沒有任何的傳輸的功能會不會有自愛疑慮應該是如果是台灣的廠牌然後我們也能夠audit那個廠牌它所使用這一些你剛剛說這個PRC的零組件的狀況的話"},{"start":14742.865,"end":14771.107,"text":"這一部分我們要去看他到底有沒有自己接上通訊功能的可能性啦這是對岸來判斷我們現在建議就是說要用不用要先確定說他不會被境外敵人實施控制好 謝謝我們再說明說明部長真的不要每一次委員諮詢只想要拖過時間拖過時間接受人民的請願接受人民的聲音瞭解地方的需求我覺得這才是數發部現在應該要做的事情謝謝"},{"start":14772.448,"end":14798.037,"text":"數位部跟紅委員來說明清楚謝謝紅委員發言完畢現在請林思明委員、林思明委員、林思明委員不在現在請徐欣盈委員、徐欣盈委員、徐欣盈委員不在現在請鄭振前委員、鄭振前委員、鄭振前委員不在現在請劉許廷委員、劉許廷委員、劉許廷委員不在"},{"start":14800.078,"end":14824.47,"text":"現在請王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。現在請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。現在請林柱英委員、林柱英委員、林柱英委員不在。現在請陳廷飛委員、陳廷飛委員、陳廷飛委員不在。"},{"start":14825.33,"end":14848.066,"text":"現在請蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員不在現在請王洪威委員、王洪威委員、王洪威委員不在現在請陳俊瑜委員、陳俊瑜委員、陳俊瑜委員不在現在請楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員不在好"},{"start":14853.766,"end":14863.458,"text":"做以下宣告登記質詢委員均已發言完畢做以下決定依報告及詢討完畢委員劉建國、楊瓊英所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":14871.127,"end":14884.785,"text":"委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或上未及答覆部分請數位部盡速以書面答覆本日議程處理完畢。散會。"},{"start":14902.21,"end":14928.08,"text":"議員、議員、議員、議員、議員、議員、議員、議員、議員、議員"}]}},{"id":"15702","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15702","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db73b8a2c1b37799c19b5fa2f296a935343be8d109af184be4056e1e98d64889495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-07","start_time":"2024-03-07T08:29:59+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:53:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":15781,"委員發言時間":"08:29:59 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麥克風測試麥克風測試 麥克風測試麥克風測試 麥克風測試麥克風測試 麥克風測試"},{"start":374.365,"end":376.426,"text":"議員提供的報告"},{"start":396.944,"end":397.404,"text":"議員．3月6日及7日"},{"start":415.337,"end":415.497,"text":"韓國獨立委員會議"},{"start":470.247,"end":498.251,"text":"總統總統總統總統總統總統"},{"start":504.838,"end":521.719,"text":"我覺得我們今天應該是旅途昨天好像說未還吧?未還跟旅行不通不通好像旅行交通也很久所以我們今天不防多讓應該大概會到1點、1、2點"},{"start":559.821,"end":570.572,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":601.402,"end":602.683,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":639.07,"end":667.346,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":913.507,"end":915.947,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":1804.245,"end":1813.49,"text":"來我們繼續開會現在進行報告事項請宣讀邀請經濟部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施進行報告並備質詢。宣讀完畢"},{"start":1825.476,"end":1844.506,"text":"好 謝謝那麼本日的議程我們排定經濟部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施進行報告首先請王部長報告"},{"start":1869.926,"end":1871.434,"text":"主席、各位委員那針對"},{"start":1874.586,"end":1881.271,"text":"貴委員會邀請本部跟臺電就電價調漲對產業、民生的衝擊研擬配套措施進行專案報告那以下就相關的情形說明如下那第一個呢電價調整的合理性跟必要性的部分那國際的燃料價格飆漲是臺電虧損的主因那因為在整個俄烏戰爭已經導致了國際燃料價格暴漲"},{"start":1902.405,"end":1908.548,"text":"台電的購煤均價由2020年的每噸64美元漲到2022年的276美元,大約上漲了三倍。中油的統約氣價也由每立方公尺8元漲到16元,上漲了一倍。"},{"start":1921.955,"end":1939.857,"text":"2023年國際的燃料價格雖然有回穩但是仍然處於高檔發購電燃料成本已經連續兩年高達6000億以上是台電整體支出的大宗與二五戰爭前大約是3000億的燃料支出相比增加超過一倍"},{"start":1940.678,"end":1958.856,"text":"相較之下電價過去兩年沒有跟著燃料價格足額的調漲導致產生虧損2023年再生能源的購電支出大概是900億元占總支出的不到10%顯見燃料支出翻倍大增是近年台電虧損的主因各國從2021年就紛紛大漲電價"},{"start":1964.782,"end":1976.789,"text":"因為在這個二無戰爭、國際燃料飆漲的情形下許多國家是直接反映在價格上面韓國、德國、法國、英國等都有大幅的調漲2020年到2023年為例韓國跟德國的電價調幅累積是87%跟34%法國跟英國更高達160跟126百分比"},{"start":1990.373,"end":1997.349,"text":"而台灣的電價調補相對是和緩的那有效的減緩國際燃料價格飆漲的輸入性通膨"},{"start":1999.141,"end":2012.785,"text":"第三個穩定台電的財務那因為台電承擔了減緩通膨的政策任務吸收燃料成本的漲勢因而產生的巨額的虧損到2023年底累計的虧損已經達到3826億元那預估呢2024年將增加虧損1887億元那電價如果不調整或者沒有政府的補助呢"},{"start":2024.469,"end":2027.372,"text":"禁止預估將會減少到228億元政府在2023、2024分別編列預算增資1500億跟1000億並且以特別預算補貼500億元來支持台電的財務但是因為國際燃料價格仍然處於高檔受電的成本仍然高於受電的價格"},{"start":2047.45,"end":2070.278,"text":"所以我們持續來爭取政府的補貼跟電價的合理調整使台電2024年達成損益兩平的目標讓累積的虧損不要再擴大那有關能源政策是不是造成台電虧損的原因那第一個在如果以2015年核能的一到三廠都還在服役中"},{"start":2070.978,"end":2098.84,"text":"那在當時核能發電占比是16%火力發電占比大概80%如果改以2023年的燃料價格來計算的話2015年受燃料成本將由3218億元提升到5871億元那每度的收電成本也將大幅提升至3.93億元跟2023年的實際的4.17億元差距其實不是那麼大"},{"start":2100.04,"end":2125.903,"text":"按照現行的法規和能電廠的運轉執照有效期限最長40年演議的申請需要在執照屆期前的5年提出目前合一二廠的運轉執照都已經屆期了而且因為用過燃料池的這個空間不足乾除的設施興建跟啟用受阻所以造成合一廠兩部機組跟合二廠的一號機都是被迫提前停機"},{"start":2126.844,"end":2145.714,"text":"而河山廠也超過了研議申請的期限除了法規的限制外研議需要凝聚社會的共識跟妥適的處理用過燃料為了確保河岸需要進行整體的安全評估跟耐震檢查並且通過河岸會的安全審查才有研議的可能發展再生能源是國家重要的基礎建設"},{"start":2152.167,"end":2166.976,"text":"將加速推動綠電進入市場交易那綠電是產業外銷出口的基礎建設那我國採取國際推動的再生能源方式先用短鉤制度來扶植產業的發展再逐步推動綠電進入市場交易2023年台電的綠電支出905億僅佔總支出不到10%而且隨著再生能源技術進步"},{"start":2179.023,"end":2184.907,"text":"總購費率也會逐漸下降那更是越來越多的業者會開始選擇賣給民間企業不再懂購的台電所以2023年的綠電轉工已經有17億度較2022年的11億度成長5成以上那我們預估2024年轉工會到37億度那2025年以後競價的離岸風電都是直接投入市場全部轉工給民間企業"},{"start":2207.845,"end":2216.371,"text":"不會等購給台電所以長期而言再生能源業者轉供民間會持續增加可以減少台電購電的支出那現行的電價審議制度呢立法院在2015年通過了電價公式建立了電價審議機制設置那個電價審議委員會2017年本部依照修正後的電業法49條訂定公用受電業電費費率的計算公式"},{"start":2236.264,"end":2238.546,"text":"延續了前述的電價審議機制所以到2015年到現在一年檢討兩次原則上在每年的4月跟10月檢討調整共用售電業的電價那電價的檢討包括當前的燃料價格趨勢的影響以及各項經營成本的規範"},{"start":2257.618,"end":2270.827,"text":"並且兼顧反應成本、節能減碳、照顧民生穩定物價、使用者付費等相關的原則因此電價審議會在審議電價的時候需要評估多重的因素除了考慮電價成本外也會綜合考慮社會經濟的狀況、物價穩定的情形"},{"start":2275.891,"end":2304.462,"text":"民生產業承受的程度、台電公司的虧損狀況等因素來審慎評估電價調整的事宜那在過去的2022、2023的調整的配套簡單說明如下那在這個部分都是在政府補貼跟電價緩漲配套下依照照顧民生穩定物價跟兼顧產業三個大目標來反映成本那在照顧的民生的部分那因為考慮"},{"start":2305.382,"end":2312.068,"text":"原先疫情的影響對民生低級距的用電由台電優先吸收所以只調漲高級距的用電價例如2022年的7月調整每月用電超過1000度以上2023年4月調整每月用電超過700度以上才調漲來鼓勵節能那民生的330度以下級距用電"},{"start":2328.963,"end":2333.105,"text":"從2004年幾乎沒有調漲過那期間甚至還有3次的調降導致現在的單價比20年還低那以住宅120度以下的用電為例2004年每度是2.1元而現在每度僅1.63元那電價已經下跌到成本的4到5成那偏離成本剩元"},{"start":2352.728,"end":2356.392,"text":"那第二個穩定物價對於以內需為主的小商家跟產業的用戶那這個由台電優先來吸收減少電價漲幅或者緩漲來穩定物價讓商家有疫情後復甦的動力那我們經過統計呢2023年的零售餐飲業都已經創歷史新高"},{"start":2374.369,"end":2376.23,"text":"顯見內需市場有顯著復甦在兼顧產業的部分2022年的7月調整考慮到內需產業受到疫情衝擊為了使它順利復甦高壓供電的百貨、電影院、健身房都有動作"},{"start":2390.835,"end":2393.536,"text":"高中以下學校也動仗來照顧學生的上課的環境品質那2023年4月的電價調整為了減緩部分產業景氣衝擊跟照顧社會的服務業所以就2022年下半年用電衰退10%以上的產業"},{"start":2409.583,"end":2434.37,"text":"條幅減半、農漁學校、社福等電價則暫緩調整。針對部分仍然面臨景氣影響的傳統產業和中小企業本部也持續透過議後特別條例採用以大代小或個別廠商的模式來補助業者朝低碳化、智慧化的升級轉型另外今年也持續提供十億元來補助商業服務業更換節能設備"},{"start":2436.211,"end":2440.067,"text":"並且擴大補助的項目也可以降低電價調整的影響。"},{"start":2441.96,"end":2458.294,"text":"那在2022年跟2023年電價調整以後我國的電價跟CPI都低於國際那第一個是你看國際能源總署2023年公布的最新統計那我國的住宅電價是全球排名第5低工業電價是第3低2022到2023兩次電價調整合計的調幅是19.4%那調整後呢我國的住宅電價每度是2.4%"},{"start":2469.263,"end":2470.484,"text":"臺電公司仍然需要仰賴穩健永續的財務支持"},{"start":2497.797,"end":2520.845,"text":"將優先爭取政府的補助電價調整是由電價費率審議委員會決定經過審議會綜合考量後需要調整電價政府人會按照反映成本照顧民生穩定物價節能減碳使用者付費等原則來辦理以上就本次的專報做一個簡單的說明敬請委員支持指教"},{"start":2524.977,"end":2551.924,"text":"好,那我們謝謝王部長的報告現在我們要進行詢答那委員詢答前依照慣例主席台這邊做幾項的宣告每位委員發言的時間本會委員6分鐘必要時加長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘必要時延長1分鐘那我們上午10點半截止發言登記我們首先請第一位登記的陳廷飛委員請詢答"},{"start":2560.114,"end":2564.618,"text":"我們請王部長。部長,我想我們的立場非常清楚。我們絕對是反對我們的電價調漲"},{"start":2581.84,"end":2604.302,"text":"我相信從所有的民意代表到中央絕對這個是我們大家共同的目標我們也希望能夠度過這一波的難關可是現在的重點是在於整個原物料燃料的一個漲價然後再加上二屋漲的一個因素"},{"start":2605.303,"end":2631.445,"text":"到底我們在這幾年光這樣的一個燃料它的一個漲價的幅度到底是多少是那所以我有提到在這個俄烏戰爭之前我們一年購的這個燃料包括台電自己購或者IPP電廠的購的這個燃料算起來其實都沒有到3000億但是俄烏戰爭之後的這兩年我們的這個燃料的購電支出都達"},{"start":2632.005,"end":2632.025,"text":"臺灣的電"},{"start":2658.1,"end":2659.201,"text":"台灣韓國、法國、英國、德國我們來比較一下"},{"start":2688.659,"end":2696.974,"text":"這個到底我們台灣、韓國、法國、英國的所有的這個電價的部分"},{"start":2699.432,"end":2702.014,"text":"來台灣是多少是那所以啊這裡有提出來齁台灣的住宅是2.65工業的部分是3.38齁那韓國呢這個工業的部分是4.53所以台灣的價格比韓國還低一塊超過一塊錢"},{"start":2718.227,"end":2730.138,"text":"那更不要講法國是8.45英國是10.76德國是8.2所以他們的工業用電都遠比台灣高非常多所以以這些工業大國來看台灣目前我們是以2023我們的工業電價來看嘛 對不對所以如依照2023的工業電價"},{"start":2741.28,"end":2758.036,"text":"我們台灣3.38韓國4.53法國8.45英國10.76德國8.2若依照這樣的一個平均我們是最低所以也不是現在外傳說哇"},{"start":2759.978,"end":2787.862,"text":"台灣的工業電價很貴不是吧?因為依照這樣的一個標準是錯的沒錯即使我們的當中我們對於對於工業的部分其實漲了兩次嘛對 對不對漲了兩次是漲了兩次之後目前還是在工業的平均用電是比較低的是那我們現在有這麼大的一個缺口我們為什麼不爭取政府的補助跟補貼有有我們"},{"start":2788.663,"end":2804.185,"text":"因為這非戰之罪啊 因為這是惡巫啊 惡巫的戰爭造成全世界所有燃料一個飛漲嘛 所以這樣的一個前提之下 我們當然應該要由政府來協助啊"},{"start":2805.106,"end":2806.067,"text":"對整個台灣的通膨對民生的影響太大所以我們的確實台電呢"},{"start":2834.029,"end":2858.574,"text":"反漲了非常多那造成了這樣的一個虧損的缺口可是既然我們過去兩次的補貼我們都可以反映在民生的部分因為之前我們在上一次是700度以下沒有漲 對不對那如果是這樣子的話那為什麼這一次在外界傳得沸沸揚揚說哇這次可能要往下拉330度"},{"start":2861.229,"end":2874.623,"text":"那這樣的一個傳言那我們為什麼沒有辦法用補貼的部分在像之前在往我們的民生用電來做補貼直接政府編列預算來補貼我們的民生用電謝謝委員"},{"start":2876.525,"end":2897.454,"text":"對於這一個部分主要是我剛才報告也有講我們在125度以下的目前的電價只有1.6塊1.6 1.6那1.6跟我們現在電的成本是4.17其實差距是非常非常的大那也就是說這樣的情形其實是一個乖離的太多的情形"},{"start":2897.994,"end":2900.357,"text":"但是我們如果在電價審議會調漲的時候我們仍舊會照顧這個小的用電戶等等 這個的大原則我們還是會注意這個用電戶小的用電戶這個比例太高啦"},{"start":2914.451,"end":2941.746,"text":"雖然如果依照我們用電是2比2比6嘛是不是就是說我們的一般住戶大概是兩層然後小店鋪是兩層然後我們的企業工業用電是六層可是如果依照平均他才佔了兩層我們如果在政府的補貼機制往我們的這些一般的民生用電的話我覺得這是OK的啊"},{"start":2943.167,"end":2944.588,"text":"這個部分我們一定會做考量那所以過往在這個家庭的住宅用電部分我們確實就會分這個急劇越高的那調漲比較多急劇越低調漲少甚至有動漲沒有錯"},{"start":2959.299,"end":2976.284,"text":"但是這個整個的部分的代言者我們仍就會提到這個審議會裡面去審查部長我覺得我們既然如果有要考慮到我們要政府編列預算要去做這樣的一個所謂的電的虧損補貼那麼我們就應該focus在我們的民生這個區塊"},{"start":2982.847,"end":2997.547,"text":"我們民生的區塊而且在小店家的部分你也要去考量到這個會直接影響到整個物價因為小店鋪它會直接反映在物價那物價會又直接影響到民生的一些狀態"},{"start":2998.709,"end":3019.158,"text":"我覺得這個都是層層的關卡我們一定要思考到而且現在媒體我們現在因為審議委員會還沒召開我們現在都從媒體可是媒體一宣布出來其實大家都已經慾其心理了有些可能這個房東就開始說哇未來我的固定這個電價這個調漲會把你做一個調整欸這個"},{"start":3023.72,"end":3041.444,"text":"我們的這些租客又開始擔心了所以我們要跟大家說的是到底現在所有媒體都說有可能漲5%、漲10%在民生用電那到底這個5%、10%在我們如果120度以下還有121因為現在都媒體嘛媒體說可能330度以下"},{"start":3048.686,"end":3050.367,"text":"五趴到底是長多少?一個月?"},{"start":3064.818,"end":3073.004,"text":"好 謝謝委員那確實如果假設我們試算過假設是120度的部分我們試算過假設是漲5%一個月是漲9塊錢那如果是330度的部分一個月大概是漲45塊左右一個月330度以下基本上是佔了我們現在總共68%的佔比就是我們民生用電的68%的佔比所以如果依照現在媒體"},{"start":3095.338,"end":3103.521,"text":"講得沸沸揚揚有5%有10%5%你說的有可能一戶你說的是一戶一戶120度一個月有可能漲了9塊錢然後121到330度漲了34塊對就是用最高的330度來賺的話都是滿就是以我用電量到120度跟用電量到330度是不是所以其實"},{"start":3125.608,"end":3145.436,"text":"這種5%、10%跟這個所謂實質到底漲了多少我覺得現在媒體實在是太多版本了這種太多版本引發大家都有預期心理甚至是很多的房東就已經開始說我現在要針對固定費率要調喔然後就是再往上攀升這個我覺得這個對於現在都是傷"},{"start":3148.357,"end":3175.891,"text":"所以我還是認為我們政府補貼這個非戰之罪因為是惡霧戰爭全世界所有的燃料都在飛漲兩倍欸兩倍如果是這樣的話我們補貼就要從民生民生開始嘛民生的部分我們一定要在這個區塊給人民有感這個部分我拜託我們的部長一定要非常把這個關鍵抓住好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":3182.024,"end":3194.581,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請林黛樺委員請做詢問有請部長我們再請王部長"},{"start":3203.028,"end":3222.614,"text":"新冠疫情後我國連續兩年消費者物價指數是超過通膨的警戒線民眾的實質薪資是出現負成長的也就是說民生經濟的耐受度聽好民生經濟的耐受度是低的"},{"start":3223.314,"end":3241.375,"text":"也就是從剛才我們上一位委員質詢的都是從爆派當中去得知到民生用電會調漲那從你的回應也確定民生用電會調漲好那您可不可以再次說明您民生用電調漲的方案是什麼"},{"start":3242.276,"end":3243.057,"text":"我再問一次,民生用電確定會漲對不對?"},{"start":3258.358,"end":3267.047,"text":"民生用電的部分我們會一起考慮相關的情境只是長的方案如何授權審議委員會去做這個都會他們會有小組裡面會去討論所以長或不長現在經濟部尚未有定案我們會提出相關的這個情境讓他們去參考好那就對於您做一個幕僚單位來講"},{"start":3280.179,"end":3280.359,"text":"您的評估又是怎麼樣?"},{"start":3297.179,"end":3297.439,"text":"那你們有沒有跟國發"},{"start":3319.218,"end":3320.999,"text":"您有沒有跟勞動部也做討論?"},{"start":3347.658,"end":3373.857,"text":"那在我們薪資所得竟然已經經濟耐受力這麼低的情況之下有沒有考量要再調高薪水呢?這個跨部會的因應是什麼?今天大家為什麼這麼重視是重點是你調高之後你如果是明天用當然我所支付的電費會增加但是我相信更讓大家感到可怕的是是我後續的通膨"},{"start":3374.938,"end":3393.683,"text":"以及相關的各部會我薪資等等的限縮這才是整個全民關心的對那所以這個的部分對物價什麼的相關的參考因素我們會詢問國發會跟主計總處他們怎麼去算的這個部分然後這個東西會這什麼時候你們會一併的跟對外講你的配套是什麼我們這樣的問的都會讓審議會去來做參考"},{"start":3401.725,"end":3427.558,"text":"我再針對工業用電,工業用電會不會漲?調漲的話應該是會漲你們還是針對離峰跟尖峰的差別定價來做規範嗎?這個還是會存在本席建議要聽聽您的看法,您針對工業用電是不是願意再針對它的用電量的急俱?"},{"start":3428.949,"end":3453.883,"text":"來做考量也就是說你們只分尖峰跟離峰來做課那我這個建議就是說請你也參考韓國這是我們在產業的競爭國他在工業用電的部分他再一次的分集聚再分再更針對他的用電量再分而不是純粹只有尖峰跟離峰不知道這個方案您個人怎麼看"},{"start":3454.805,"end":3458.387,"text":"非常謝謝委員那這個也會作為委員這個意見會作為我們會設算然後提出相關的這個數據的參考資料讓審議會來參考好勞動部今年公告橡膠製品製造業、金屬製品製造業、電子零組件製造業、電腦電子產品及光電製造業"},{"start":3476.096,"end":3495.182,"text":"機械、設備、製造業、其他運輸工具及其他零組件旅行及其他行業等7大行業處於無薪假陰影這個問題會不會因為你們工業用電而產業會撐不下去呢?這個新聞是從今年1月發布的新聞勞動部"},{"start":3496.442,"end":3514.94,"text":"議員．"},{"start":3515.02,"end":3520.202,"text":"所以我不知道針對這些產業是勞動部、工部已經在無薪假的狀態的行業您認為您這樣的工業用電的漲會有不會讓我企業撐不下去呢在過往我們確實在工業電價的時候也有考慮到它的用電的成長或者用電的衰退然後做不同的一個調整所以像上一次就針對"},{"start":3540.01,"end":3543.853,"text":"如果你這個用電衰退10%的部分我們減半調漲。減半調漲?對,在過往的部分有這樣的機制。還會延續?我們會把相關的情形都拿出來參考數據。"},{"start":3556.561,"end":3573.799,"text":"再來我們台電因為配合政策導致虧損政策補貼跟增資當然在你的簡報當中叫做可能的方案那本席想了解你們是到底是會用政策補貼還是增資還是有相關兩個合在一起的組合方案"},{"start":3574.66,"end":3574.961,"text":"我們會用補貼的方式"},{"start":3590.037,"end":3595.879,"text":"在開源跟節流．節流本行想救教天然氣發電將佔5成的電量目前全部都有中油代為採購而中油每個月向部內報告天然氣的價格後再售給台電也就是說所有天然氣的採購成本都是台電買單"},{"start":3612.583,"end":3626.567,"text":"那部長台電的發電用的燃料煤的採購都需要經過煤價審議委員會也就是外部委員的核定而同一機制在中油的天然氣的採購卻沒有"},{"start":3629.284,"end":3637.807,"text":"中郵自己說了算幾個人就說了算了好那也就是呢中郵說多少台電就要吞多少光天然機的採購採賣方包賣包運賣方包運DES的隱性運輸成本就對比我們買方包賣的FOB的機制每年台灣的納稅人就要多花600億的台幣這樣的質詢我上屆就質詢了3次了"},{"start":3658.433,"end":3683.313,"text":"部長中油目前有近三成的天然氣的採購是採取現貨購買的我針對現貨購買的你會不會要求制裁買方包賣也就是FOB的模式進一步來要求國企國印的管理方式呢剛才講到開源你節流你怎麼讓我台灣人民每年省下這600億台幣那請你回應"},{"start":3686.636,"end":3691.4,"text":"不管是燃煤或天然氣其實都是用長約、短約來購買煤價沒有審議會的問題其實也都是按照國際的機制用長約跟短約天然氣的部分確實現在也是長約大概7成左右短約是3成左右這個部分跟這個幾年操作下來"},{"start":3712.703,"end":3717.206,"text":"這樣的一個情形呢他們兩家公司其實都非常專業啦那至於委員講的這個要不要用國這個國輪來運對這個問題呢也就是買方包運有我們"},{"start":3728.192,"end":3728.212,"text":"是。"},{"start":3745.132,"end":3757.784,"text":"所以我如果沒有自己的國家完全是礦組在掌握那你這個只要一個地緣政治就像我們惡霧戰爭所有的天然氣船我就進不進來啦因為根本我們沒有辦法阻擋"},{"start":3760.895,"end":3773.501,"text":"報告委員,我中小公司方正仁有關LNG的採購的部分FOB我們會努力去把FOB的合約佔比提高讓國企國運的部分能夠更落實的在我們國內建立起來以上報告"},{"start":3783.826,"end":3802.224,"text":"那這個部長有一個剛才的訊息我希望您再查證一下分析所了解的台電藍煤的是有一個煤價審議委員剛才你的回覆是說沒有這個可能我們彼此比對一下報告委員齁,台電的煤是我們自己用招標的方式去"},{"start":3804.431,"end":3825.479,"text":"大概八成是長期的契約的方式去策劃我在意的是這個形勢你們有外部審議委員的一起討論嗎只是一個工作小組而已不是一個委員會是一個工作小組嘛全部都是台電自己本身的同仁嗎有外部的嗎那個有"},{"start":3826.049,"end":3852.193,"text":"謝謝,謝謝。"},{"start":3855.963,"end":3856.563,"text":"臺灣到底缺不缺電?"},{"start":3883.874,"end":3908.86,"text":"台灣到底缺不缺電台灣是缺電還是會跳電這問題很簡單但很重要所以我問三次部長請您回答台灣沒有缺電部長您這一句話很重要很重要要講三次台灣沒有缺電而且這個態度是要堅定因為有立法委員會在立法院的議事殿堂裡頭公然造謠"},{"start":3910.16,"end":3926.394,"text":"利用言論免責權公然造謠所以我需要部長您很堅定的態度來回答本席的這個問題台灣到底缺不缺電台灣沒有缺電是好台灣如果不缺電的話那很顯然的台灣在"},{"start":3927.735,"end":3943.591,"text":"確定這件事情上面其實是需要被澄清、被更正而且是要大聲的說出來但是台灣是會跳電表示我們的電網的堅韌度其實是不足的這一點您承認吧"},{"start":3944.352,"end":3947.115,"text":"對於這個相關這麼長的一個電網等等會有相關的故障其實台電在各國的評比上還是名列前茅的那只是因為確實我們的媒體會常常報導那台電呢發生這些的設備故障的時候那去把它維修好的這個"},{"start":3966.935,"end":3967.716,"text":"部長,我要再請教您一個問題"},{"start":3991.278,"end":4017.353,"text":"到底台灣的能源發展政策路線到底是不是正確因為現在我們的在野黨一直不斷的批評就是說台電的虧損這麼高就是因為我們高價收購再生能源而認為蔡英文政府的綠能發展的這個政策是錯誤的這個大概全世界的人都知道RE100是2014年發起的國際倡議活動"},{"start":4018.994,"end":4019.335,"text":"部長,你有沒有看過這個新聞?"},{"start":4036.796,"end":4061.907,"text":"這個是3月3日日本的朝日新聞台的報導這我不是隨便亂講的這是真的日本朝日新聞台的報導它的報導內容是什麼它來讚揚台灣的優質能源政策日本人認為台灣在風力發電在我們的再生能源上面的能源政策是遠遠比日本更優秀"},{"start":4063.015,"end":4089.147,"text":"可是呢在台灣似乎我們不是這樣的看法在台灣台電公司或者是經濟部發展再生能源一直不斷的被辱罵你看一下齁到目前為止台灣已經有283個風力發電的機組日本只有53個我們在法院的設計上面我們2012年就已經把法令完成了日本要到2019年才完成"},{"start":4090.652,"end":4104.362,"text":"所以部長我還想請您再看一下到底要不要漲電價到底漲電價是不是因為你的能源政策的錯誤剛剛前面那一張其實已經很清楚的說明台灣的能源政策並沒有錯誤"},{"start":4105.763,"end":4130.646,"text":"能源漲價燃煤所有的材料成本漲價二污戰爭是一個很重要的因素在過去的兩年其實我們都經過了多次的討論這一個大概是我們把它整理了一下台灣現在是全球住宅用電全世界排名第五低工業用電排名全世界第三低的"},{"start":4132.601,"end":4140.887,"text":"這個看起來全世界各國除掉台灣以外韓國、法國、英國、德國包括法國的工業電價漲幅是160%"},{"start":4144.471,"end":4172.961,"text":"英國的漲幅也到126%甚至德國跟英國您看一下他的住宅用電的價格是比工業用電的價格還要高那你台電現在告訴我你的發電成本是4塊錢可是我們的電價遠遠低於你的發電成本所以台電不虧才奇怪那台電要漲價也要漲一個有"},{"start":4174.805,"end":4201.85,"text":"長一個這個五天十天啦不是隨便你說要漲價就漲價台電要漲價之前呢台電來跟大家說我們有很多的節能政策到底這些節能政策我們的產業或者是家戶他們瞭解到多少你們的這個補助所達到的效應有多少部長我記得你們去年有做過一個統計我們前年漲了住宅大戶"},{"start":4203.01,"end":4206.632,"text":"用電大戶的電價結果你們漲了電價以後反而節電的效果就產生了 對不對這個是經濟部有做過統計吧那你們的這個統計的時程很短是不是能夠把它延長到比如說到去年年底"},{"start":4220.819,"end":4234.595,"text":"因為這個好像是前年做的是不是能夠把去年一整年的這個節電的效果住宅大戶因為漲價之後而產生的節電效果能夠做一個更完整的統計有沒有這樣的能力除了這個之外"},{"start":4239.381,"end":4263.962,"text":"你要漲電價但是你也應該要讓民眾知道我要如何節電我要如何省電我知道現在台電你有分這所謂的時間電價跟累進電價嘛那所以大家有人會講說半夜洗衣服是不是電價會比較便宜可是半夜洗衣服電價要比較便宜的話你沒有裝智慧電表其實是沒有差的"},{"start":4265.066,"end":4265.086,"text":"總經理"},{"start":4296.475,"end":4315.348,"text":"報告委員,裝飾會電表的費用是台電承擔,等於是在我的整體的修電成本裡面來處理的所以你現在要漲電價這是一件事情第二件事情是你要告訴大家我雖然漲了電價但是我能夠做另外一個措施讓你節電"},{"start":4317.309,"end":4346.068,"text":"讓你的花費支出不會因為漲電花費支出太多支出太多你要教大家如何省電你要教大家我有這樣的一個方式我可以協助你來更換智慧電表然後協助你做節電的這樣的一個措施這樣的一個方案讓你的整體荷包即使你會因為漲電價多付了一些些錢比如說剛剛停飛委員問到了300度以上的用電戶一個月大概是漲"},{"start":4347.029,"end":4371.395,"text":"三十幾塊嘛、三十四塊嘛 對不對那如果我裝了智慧電表之後我那個價差是不是又再更縮小然後你的整個發電、除電這個其實也是另外一個方向的除電因為你晚上還是要發電嘛利用離峰的時間把這些電消耗掉而它又能夠獲得比較便宜的電價我覺得台電"},{"start":4372.976,"end":4396.155,"text":"應該要去做這樣的一個教育跟說明的工作您同意嗎?報告委員現在的這個我們的民生用戶的用電大概有兩類一類是用的比較低的比如說300度以下的一類是可能用到500、700甚至更高的比較低的這個部分維持現在的累進電價是比較划算的因為它最低100"},{"start":4396.715,"end":4422.654,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":4422.994,"end":4450.993,"text":"這樣的話就是有效率的用電我想這是未來我們要推動的我覺得是這樣部長這個不要說是委員的指示才去做我覺得你們在推動這些政策說明上面即使漲電價是不得已我們也希望不要漲電價但是現在看起來你的發電成本遠遠高過於你的售價成本所以漲電價已經是不得已那你要漲電價的同時其實你應該要更加的去宣導如何採用節電的措施"},{"start":4451.833,"end":4467.724,"text":"我們甚至包括這兩年都有這個相關的節能的補助你去換那個能消耗的這個冷氣冰箱都有補助那這個部分也確實申請的案子非常多所以部長我一直在講因為你現在的電價相對是便宜"},{"start":4468.985,"end":4469.065,"text":"是是是"},{"start":4501.087,"end":4501.107,"text":"張祺凱委員"},{"start":4533.14,"end":4559.239,"text":"請王部長我們再請王部長委員好部長你辛苦了不過人民也很苦請苦民所苦民生第一電價不要漲特別是民生電價絕對不要漲我先請教你第一個問題你今天報告有聽到嗎?"},{"start":4561.038,"end":4585.784,"text":"你今天有拿錯報告嗎?你看你報告的第4月跟第5月調整電價你強調的都是什麼?包括你剛剛口頭報告都是要照顧民生穩定不給對不對?是可是你的作為這個都是你在強調去年2020年跟2023年做的以前你的努力是可是你今天是要調電價"},{"start":4587.526,"end":4591.188,"text":"所以保定,所以你現在還在努力嗎?沒有像媒體一直在報導的已經確定是要漲了,包括1000度1000度跟連330度的全部都要漲嗎?"},{"start":4617.207,"end":4635.565,"text":"電價審議委員會那邊才會去決定所以現在是應該是媒體的這個意見那最後的情形應該是電價審議會去決定那我在報告裡面講的就是說300度以下特別是120度以下目前的電價 抱歉部長你已經說不下去了不要讓你再重複一次你很辛苦啦我現在只要強調電價不要漲"},{"start":4639.744,"end":4658.188,"text":"特別是民生的不要漲因為它會違反你自己提出來的照顧民生穩定物價另外再強調一個重點來我們看一下下一張圖現在絕對不是漲電價的好時機主計總署剛才廣播對不對他說什麼現在實質性資金這個縮減的幅度是11年來最大"},{"start":4665.336,"end":4693.145,"text":"我們現在在座每一個人的薪水全國每一個人的薪水總平均都追不上物價這時候怎麼可以去漲電價呢我們的薪水已經追不上物價了你還要去讓通膨更往上嗎所以時間點是不對的第二個我們看看這個圖近7年來實質的薪資2018年開始往下降到了去年的時候是負1.04"},{"start":4696.483,"end":4711.409,"text":"當我們實質的薪水在座每一個人、全國每一個民眾實質薪水都追不上物價的時候你們什麼時候火上加油呢?你這不是前功盡棄嗎?你去年跟前年都那麼努力今年為什麼要漲呢?這不是自己打嘴巴嗎?"},{"start":4714.831,"end":4732.984,"text":"我報告也講得很清楚齁那因為台電的目前的累積的虧損跟今年的持續虧損其實是會造成台電很大的一個財務上的一個壓力啦你現在很急啦可是很急不可以只有從人民身上拔毛那個對人民來講對人民來講電價一漲物價跟著漲"},{"start":4737.987,"end":4764.077,"text":"這就撥兩層皮嘛 對不對對政客來講對政客來講可能現在選舉過後了已經三明開始對不對現在漲價不好意思對政客來講可能是最好的一個漲價時間點可是對人民來講物價也要漲電價也要漲情何以堪謝謝委員的意見我們其實是就一個 部長以前阿扁為2004年開始阿扁也不敢去阿"},{"start":4765.896,"end":4765.916,"text":"對不對?"},{"start":4781.118,"end":4809.472,"text":"但是委員對於這樣惡霧戰爭造成了這樣的燃料的歪理也是從來沒有看過的情形所以這樣的一個情形其實是很不一樣的情境下那台電已經在購買連你們執政黨的立委都提說要開源節流對不對我在總執行已經提了很多降低成本開源節流的方法等一下我們進步再來談包括我請你給我資料有太多可以做啊"},{"start":4810.766,"end":4836.807,"text":"所以我從開研降低成本跟開研去節流 讓你可以省下很多錢 台電的董事長在這 欸文森 你們之前是金雞母欸 到底誰把他搞壞的 不是只有單純的國際的這個因素吧 有太多太多問題 所以我現在先提一個重點 第一個連部長跟董事長應該都贊成 這時候漲 物價節約上去 對人民衝擊一定是很大 對不對 時間點又不對"},{"start":4838.451,"end":4861.572,"text":"時間點又不對來進一步我們來看看下一張人民為什麼要生氣欸那個董事長現在就是台電在虧錢人民在付錢對不對結果民間電廠還有能源列車包括太陽能他們賺大錢現在生氣的是不是這個台電虧錢人民付錢民間的電廠跟"},{"start":4863.752,"end":4866.713,"text":"這個部分我們都有非常仔細對民營電廠他的成本跟合理的利潤這個其實都抓得非常嚴格"},{"start":4891.707,"end":4900.314,"text":"我知道,是太陽能,你們去買太陽能買太貴買了一堆弊案出來了這個不用去解決嗎?我跟韋某剛好你說黃偉哲這個案子,這個立揚這樣好不好?"},{"start":4904.028,"end":4925.594,"text":"你把那個立揚、你們跟他買電的、購電那個合約書送到本席的辦公室來也送一份到,欸召委,送一份到我們經濟委員會來我們詳細來看裡面到底有沒有問題,要不然各說各話啊我們是幫人民監督也是幫人民省錢嘛把立揚、把立揚黃偉哲那個案子立揚的那個購電的那個合約書可以送到我們這邊來嗎?"},{"start":4926.454,"end":4929.737,"text":"欸 這個沒有問題沒問題齁 我們詳細 董事長 我們詳細來幫你們檢驗報告員 報告員 其實你是財經專業你完全知道 短購的合約都是標準合約只有公司名稱不一樣 不同年份的"},{"start":4944.051,"end":4946.011,"text":"總諮詢的時候部長我跟你跟院長要了一個資料我們跟民間電廠買電買太貴"},{"start":4969.171,"end":4985.956,"text":"這個都是你們的決算書上面清清楚楚同樣那天你一直在講國際因素我給你看說台電本身也用燃煤你去買電民間的這個電廠也是用燃煤這個你看111年你們台電自己發的用燃煤是多少3.571度"},{"start":4988.362,"end":5015.283,"text":"到了112年是往下降了357變成343結果你到民間電廠去買欸你不只沒有降你要往上啊你從369變成415欸我們不會賺少這個欸不是不是當初李登輝說明天買電欸我聽你聽委員這個有很多因素齁比如說台電的電廠比較舊它的折舊本來就是折舊比較多了那民間的電廠相對是比較新所以這個都有相關的審議的機制很可惜啦最重要的原則是什麼董事長要買電"},{"start":5019.5,"end":5031.601,"text":"那時候定的原則是你們給我的回覆囉台電公司是以避免成本的原則去購電也就是說他購電的價格是什麼不能高於購電當時市場行情"},{"start":5034.735,"end":5036.416,"text":"只是要稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍"},{"start":5063.447,"end":5082.497,"text":"那時候就追效率跟成本要降低嘛 那個時候是認為說 這個就是你提給我的基本價基本的原則 我要講一下給大家聽大家全國的民眾都可以聽得到 台電是以避免成本原則購電也就是說他購買電價不得高於購電當時的市場行情 你已經高了而且高那麼多"},{"start":5083.928,"end":5103.29,"text":"市長還提出的方式是這樣,就是編記一度電的成本,這個您都很清楚,編記成本一定會增加的市長這樣好不好,你把這九家,董事長,你是這九家當初的這個合約我們拿來,你也是財經專家,我們來對一對好不好好,做三件事情,不要急著漲價,特別是民生的電價,至少做這三件事情"},{"start":5104.175,"end":5106.996,"text":"台電你賠錢的時候,你民間電廠是不是賺大錢?"},{"start":5106.996,"end":5121.444,"text":"這個要不要改?從關電跟民間公司。第二個,太陽關電是不是買多買貴?必然重生,要處理。當然,核電是很便宜的,你們不用,這沒關係。現在反正國會三黨不過半。現在柯文哲跟民眾黨已經講了,核二核三演議嘛。"},{"start":5122.404,"end":5135.05,"text":"去總體檢核試然後國民黨也是贊成的啊就到時候立法院如果過了我們一步一步來走好不好不過最重要拜託部長跟董事長苦民所苦不要上電價特別民生電價好不好謝謝"},{"start":5163.193,"end":5172.101,"text":"主席好,我想請王部長我們再請王部長跟那個台電的董事長台電董事長請"},{"start":5174.991,"end":5181.095,"text":"這是台電的資產負債表,我們看到資本去年是3300億,今年度是4815億,我們去年度才編列1500億,讓你們資本增加,導致你們現在不會破產,是不是?"},{"start":5197.981,"end":5218.59,"text":"因為現在累計虧損已經到了3972億嘛是不是那其實我們看到了股東的權益就是淨值是1194億那扣除我還特別去查了一下如果我們核四的賬面上的價值的話是2800多億其實我們現在"},{"start":5224.552,"end":5236.074,"text":"我們這個權益也是好看的啦那其實台電是面臨了非常嚴峻的虧損即便我們補充資本1500億那在這個情況下未來我們怎麼樣子不會讓台電繼續的虧損下去"},{"start":5243.496,"end":5272.665,"text":"就如同剛才有前面有委員說的有一些民眾認為說我們在再生能源的比例這麼高的情況下那有可能未來持續還是會有嚴重的虧損那再來大部分的我們台電的發電成本是來自於火力發電那仰賴於進口的能源那請問一下我們的能源價格未來如果"},{"start":5273.385,"end":5287.067,"text":"不管是烏鵝戰爭或者是以巴的衝突也好如果未來能源持續的還是這樣子的情況下會不會導致發電成本高居不下"},{"start":5291.017,"end":5303.65,"text":"確實惡霧戰爭讓過去的兩三年燃料成本增加非常多那到今年的部分也開始有一點點降低只是這個目前的降低的情形跟戰爭之前比還是在高達那這個就是為什麼我們台電有提出這樣的一個希望"},{"start":5308.955,"end":5308.975,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":5331.445,"end":5331.605,"text":"會越來越少。"},{"start":5358.058,"end":5376.249,"text":"那離岸風電的部分呢2025年病亡的這一些的競價的離岸風電全部全部他都是賣給民間的部分我剛才來諮詢前我還特別去看了今年度的預算書喔那我看到你們去年度的虧損是2784億約啊是不是那個"},{"start":5380.305,"end":5405.586,"text":"那是預算﹖去年﹖報告委員那是預算﹖我說去年﹖你說的沒錯﹖去年﹖2023﹖對﹖2023的預算﹖對﹖那是決算﹖決算是多少﹖決算是1900多﹖1900多﹖那當然這裡面有500億的政府補貼﹖所以我們編的預算是我們多節於就是說少虧損了300多億但不是就是這裡面含了就1900多億是因為含了500億政府補貼"},{"start":5407.227,"end":5410.329,"text":"今年度你們是不是還預計虧損1800多億我們報院的預算是1887億對不對"},{"start":5416.836,"end":5435.89,"text":"所以今年度還是有可能有巨幅度的虧損那請問跟委員報告因為我們在電價的調整上面有一個一年調兩次然後3%的這樣子的一個設算我們是依照這個來設算同時沒有政府補貼的狀況下會虧損1887億那你1887億是有含調整電價還是沒有調整電價3%的設算"},{"start":5443.845,"end":5447.307,"text":"對於4月份電價的漲幅都是用10%來設算那請問會不會調整到10%左右會不會全部"},{"start":5468.45,"end":5478.558,"text":"這個部分就是今天我們會提到就是說假設只有這個兩次都只有漲3%台電整年會虧1887億但是呢台電因為累積的虧損已經3800多億了所以這樣對台電的財務的運作已經產生很大的困難所以我們才會說第一個希望政府來補助那第二個呢可能"},{"start":5490.606,"end":5508.49,"text":"要合理的來調整電價是因為這樣來的那所以是3%還是10%因為我看到其他的就是部門都有就是相關的調漲的一個試算嗎那有你們說你們自己預算書裡面所根據的是3%的漲幅嗎那3%是兩次嗎還是一次"},{"start":5513.171,"end":5534.522,"text":"那時候是兩次的3%那就是6%嘛因為過往在算預算的提的時候都是這樣的提法報告委員那個平均就是3%啦因為4月調一次10月調一次他都沒有逐年所以兩次3%其實反應只有3%所以不是6%是3%對我們報的預算書一向都是這樣子報的"},{"start":5541.018,"end":5568.239,"text":"可是我是說其他大家都預估啦就是說有可能是10%那目前我看到的就是說因為我們目前其他主計單位所預估的今年度的物價的就是上漲的指數是1.85%但是我不知道他這有沒有就是說沒有可能沒有把你們就是漲電價漲幅試算進去那未來如果"},{"start":5569.019,"end":5592.996,"text":"你們是電價上漲的話那對於整個物價影響的層面有多高?你們有試算嗎?這個部分我們都會把相關的背景到審議委員會去讓他們去審那相關的資料包括主計總署的資料、國化會的資料等等我們都會匯到那個裡面讓審議委員會去了解所以那到底4月份"},{"start":5595.73,"end":5623.429,"text":"因為我們優先是希望能夠政府的補助啦齁但是這個就看政府的補助的金額的希望他們可以給我們多少然後來看電價的這個漲幅的情形我看到齁我其實不只看到台電我還看到中油啊那我看到中油的裡面喔你們110年度虧損是這上面沒有啊大概是591億是不是"},{"start":5627.971,"end":5634.337,"text":"總有110年度這個數字我不記得不過112年我們公司虧損是180億110年470億470億嘛那是不是有什麼所謂的你們的雙黃獎的措施就是在2021年的"},{"start":5654.351,"end":5672.185,"text":"2020年沒錯就是在油價的部分那會不會那請問會不會我們今天如果4月份漲電價會不會未來連油價的這個就是亞林最低價或者是這個雙黃漲的措施都拿掉的時候那會不會造成兩個都要漲"},{"start":5673.792,"end":5685.641,"text":"目前油價的機制它是一個既定的機制都按照這個機制在走至於說這個機制會不會去調整當然要看跟政府的政策一起做互相的一個搭配"},{"start":5686.811,"end":5704.383,"text":"對,因為我看到主計總署他預估今年度又上修我們的經濟的成長率是3.43%但是如果我們的電價上漲或者是未來我們的油價也上漲的時候對於這個經濟的預估數字是不是會不會太過於樂觀啊?部長"},{"start":5706.79,"end":5723.161,"text":"這個部分我們整個情形我們都會一起來做斟酌考慮那在這個油價的那個雙平穩機制的下面那亞林最低價在去年前年中油確實是吃了很多虧因為"},{"start":5724.022,"end":5738.075,"text":"日本補貼非常多油價那我們又說我們一定要在亞洲各國裡面是最低價所以在去年前年的部分中油這個部分的油價確實是吸收非常多造成他蠻大的一個虧損那當然天然氣的部分後來降了下來之後我們也逐漸讓他可以"},{"start":5747.223,"end":5755.271,"text":"反映天然氣的價格到台電的部分但是天然氣的部分我們確實還有一部分是沒有漲的包括民生的瓦斯桶還有工業的LNG的部分目前那個部分確實是沒有漲的"},{"start":5765.962,"end":5770.727,"text":"那未來會不會漲?相關的檢討中有這邊會來看它整個的營運的狀況還有這個成本應該怎麼樣反應的部分會全盤的示範那如果兩個都漲的話對於整體的物價"},{"start":5785.544,"end":5787.465,"text":"接下來我們請李玉琳委員請做詢答"},{"start":5816.686,"end":5819.337,"text":"謝謝主席請王部長我們請王部長"},{"start":5825.776,"end":5849.773,"text":"市長,在去年的時候因為有選舉所以我們的審議小組也決定說不漲價那今年因為敵不過台電一直的虧損那本席也要請教部長剛剛大家都在講說今年是一定會漲了雖然說審議小組他們會議還沒有確定但是外面都已經在傳了可能會漲到10%那本席想請教如果漲到10%"},{"start":5855.077,"end":5858.307,"text":"就能夠彌補虧損嗎?那如果不能彌補虧損要漲到多少?你的虧損才會彌補過來?"},{"start":5862.408,"end":5866.391,"text":"第一個去年其實有漲所以去年在去年的4月漲了這個11%所以去年有漲那第二個對台電的這個部分我們確實因為累積的虧損3800多億我們是希望說今年度是不是能夠損益兩平那損益兩平我們確實優先還是會希望政府能夠相關的補貼要漲到多少%才會彌補虧損"},{"start":5891.847,"end":5892.268,"text":"政府要補貼多少?部長?"},{"start":5907.21,"end":5912.774,"text":"在2023年的時候我們已經在這個特別預算裡面已經補了台電500億2023、2024的公務預算也讓他增資了1500加上2024的預備要增資的1000這總共已經補了3000億"},{"start":5925.49,"end":5944.931,"text":"這個都有數字在這邊所以我想請問部長的就是說我們的漲價跟綠電有沒有關係我們最主要還是燃料的成本大漲的問題成本現在我們的能源政策裡面燃料再一個火力發電燃煤還有跟天然氣將近就佔了80%"},{"start":5946.613,"end":5964.804,"text":"議員．"},{"start":5965.271,"end":5973.702,"text":"對於第一個相關的這個燃煤改成燃氣其實就讓碳排可以減少一半這兩個加起來就佔了八成啦你燃氣50%嘛那你燃煤30%綠電的話是20%"},{"start":5983.133,"end":5988.096,"text":"目前綠電還沒有到20%所以現在的這些我們燃天然氣也好燃煤也好都在國外進口所以我們的電價才要一直漲嗎?"},{"start":6004.82,"end":6011.185,"text":"這個部分台灣沒有產天然氣跟煤這個是那其他的綠電呢那我想請問一下除了這些以外你未來的會調整的話是不是為了綠電要鋪路呢不是那綠電的部分事實上現在已經越來越多的綠電直接賣給民間的業者那這樣的話其實我們讓綠電的這個基礎已經有了那他們其實像太陽光店那個大的案場"},{"start":6031.22,"end":6048.012,"text":"﹗"},{"start":6048.312,"end":6048.332,"text":"9.5次"},{"start":6070.413,"end":6091.342,"text":"所以達不到這個時段的話你未來還要調整到都要用綠電為什麼本席要在這邊提醒你就是說現在很多國際的情勢大家都要鼓勵用綠電尤其歐洲跟美國國家的話他們2030年他們還要使用所有的半導體晶圓的話這個整個產業鏈"},{"start":6093.683,"end":6119.021,"text":"都要使用這個綠電他們才拿得到訂單如果說我們的話這個能源配備還不做調整的話那未來我們的半導體我們的這個晶圓我們這個護國神山群啊要怎麼樣去搶購這訂單你說綠電的這個配置建制沒有完成的話你無形之中就讓我們這些廠商不得不出走到有綠電的國家去"},{"start":6119.961,"end":6127.768,"text":"這是讓我們非常認為社會擔心的部分所以委員剛才一直講這個綠電那所以像台積電他們加入RE100那他們也跟我們講那個他們的客戶一直希望他們加快來增加這個綠電那RE100的綠電就是包括這個風啊、光啊、水利等等的這些那所以我們確實這個要增加來綠電的發展"},{"start":6145.905,"end":6168.165,"text":"你現在的綠電的話你那個太陽能的話占比大概是在你綠電的8.95裡面它的占比是差不多有45其他的水跟風的話占比的話也在將近是一半對一半所以我們才會提醒說未來這個綠電你要不要去做調整那支持的漲價到底跟綠電有沒有關係"},{"start":6169.81,"end":6175.011,"text":"綠電原先是賣給台電的短購多沒有錯但是未來這些綠電所以是短購高所以我們的成本就提高所以你這個漲價就跟綠電有關係不是我剛才報告也有講我們確實在去年度買的綠電是900億沒有錯但是這個900億跟台電去年的總支出成本是1兆其實佔不到10%"},{"start":6192.995,"end":6215.196,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":6215.376,"end":6241.043,"text":"部長,您要了解現在我們政府正是為了因應我們淨零排碳的趨勢已經有提出了台灣2050年淨零排碳的路徑跟策略的說明希望在2050年的能源配比可以做一個大調整尤其是再生能源,你們這邊就有提到再生能源要60%到70%"},{"start":6243.024,"end":6257.144,"text":"還有氫氣的話是9%到12%火力的話是20%到27%水力是1%所以這是你們政府提出來的一個願景你就必須調整現在是2024 2050年就要做到啦"},{"start":6258.177,"end":6277.212,"text":"是,那個是原來我們規劃的路徑圖沒有錯所以我剛剛跟部長所談的就是綠電的問題還有能源配比要去做調整就是你們自己提出來的啊那為什麼說現在不行呢沒有,那這個部分就是我們現在要朝這樣的目標趕快去努力的放下所以你要朝這個目標現在2024你的綠電的話達到8.95而已還沒有達到18那你2050年的話"},{"start":6285.419,"end":6306.018,"text":"你要達到60%這差了50%欸那你怎麼去做呢所以在這個部分齁比如說我們這個20%的部分到2026嘛齁那後續的這個部分我們其實都是在陸續盤點怎麼樣來快速增加這個綠點的部分部長你的陸續速度要快一點本席都提醒你2030年"},{"start":6309.083,"end":6327.776,"text":"2020年歐洲美國他們都希望我們整個半導體的這個用電產業鏈都要用綠電所以我們要保住我們台灣的護國神山群們都能夠留下來而且台積電幾乎它的用電量是佔我們所有我們的台電發電的16.5%"},{"start":6330.698,"end":6348.15,"text":"沒有沒有他現在他目前現在應該是8%多目前是佔全全委員講的是所有的辦公室所有啊所有的發電台積電所有的收進來的發電能量啊這沒有錯嘛沒有台積電一家公司的話目前佔我們的發電量是8%多但是他確實佔8%增加沒有錯"},{"start":6357.156,"end":6373.789,"text":"所以台積電剛剛講的所有是16點多趴那台積電就是8趴多了它就佔了一半它就佔了一半的話如果照目前的綠電的話我們的綠電也是8.95那這樣等於是整個台積電都拿走了那大山拿走了的話那我們的一些小山呢"},{"start":6374.77,"end":6392.111,"text":"護國神山的這些小山群們呢?所以部長這要趕快的讓我們的電能夠穩定而且你現在的現在電價漲了你這個整個電價的審議小組裡面他們說不管是工業電、民生電通通沒有集聚的通通要漲"},{"start":6393.012,"end":6395.915,"text":"我們很擔心你只要電價一漲萬物皆漲如果漲到10%的話那物價高漲的話我們如何去穩定我們大家民生的手續呢我們在調整電價的時候在過去兩次也都有非常注意這個民生的部分物價的部分所以相關的漲台灣大概這樣的漲法是"},{"start":6417.353,"end":6433.918,"text":"全世界做的最細膩的一個方案那這個部分我們也會這一次也會注意相關的這個情形然後提到省議會去讓他們去參考所以本期今天提醒請你們要注意到說未來的整個趨勢不是說國際的能源的問題還有這個半導體的這個所有需要用綠電的問題我們要所有建制要"},{"start":6441.96,"end":6443.061,"text":"接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做詢答"},{"start":6500.649,"end":6526.993,"text":"主席我們委員還有我們部長還有請部長好我們再請王部長還有董事長總經理嗎今天請台電董事長總經理請來一位總經理好了請總經理董事長不用謝謝好部長好是委員好好辛苦了這個今天談這個電價調漲"},{"start":6531.377,"end":6544.9,"text":"我們看這個例年電價這個一覽表大家都知道這個平均電價都在提升我們看這個電價漲價的一個過程、歷程這個開會的時間到底審議的時間在10月、4月早期也有在6月也有在7月這個有"},{"start":6561.864,"end":6588.716,"text":"規定在什麼樣的考量嗎?原則上都是在3月跟9月召開會議然後來決定4月跟10月以後的電價的情形3月跟9月對,3月跟9月開會然後來決定4月跟10月以後的這個電價的情形所以今年會在什麼時候開會?都是3月再開會已經開了嗎?"},{"start":6590.717,"end":6608.53,"text":"相關的作業的小組會先開然後再由審議會來召開好那有時候在6月有時候在7月是那個以前沒有比較明確的規定那原則上原則上就是這兩個時間在開會對好這個部分"},{"start":6615.715,"end":6640.253,"text":"這個我們很明顯的通稱這個時候是看守內閣通稱我們都過去部長過去我們都是事務官事務官這個在當知道這個總統換了然後這個院長可能會換或是部長可能會換"},{"start":6641.721,"end":6669.31,"text":"的可能性的時候通常很多的重大政策因為這個是涉及到重大政策都會往後延往後延所以我在看的時候有時候7月有時候4月、6月很可能就是有這樣的一個考量所以這個部分我們必須要去第一個答言者要先請部長跟院長來報告是不是"},{"start":6670.51,"end":6692.401,"text":"還是要考量這個因素不過我跟委員說明因為這一次其實是延續的執政所以也不能完全叫做cancel那個那另外就是說事實上在馬總統2015年的時候他其實也有開會也有去調整2016的時候對我只是給你建議是是謝謝委員這個部分我們看你的理由這個"},{"start":6700.144,"end":6711.154,"text":"國際燃料價格飆漲是臺電虧損主因尤其提到二屋戰爭導致國際燃料價格暴漲臺電購買均價由2020年每噸64美元漲至2022年的276元這是事實沒有錯那請問一下這個我們過電"},{"start":6729.5,"end":6751.461,"text":"我們台電購煤是不是匯後可以提供還是現在就有資料就是說這個購煤的量在這個10年之間有沒有什麼變動這10年之間是一樣還是說有增加"},{"start":6753.498,"end":6779.417,"text":"購買的量不是金額,量大概差不多1億噸左右大概9千萬噸大概就差不多那個位置慢慢慢慢逐步逐步的在降低因為我們的燃煤的佔比從前幾年的那個43%現在已經降到34%左右了所以逐步逐步燃煤的部分在降低"},{"start":6780.718,"end":6804.159,"text":"有一直降嗎?還是說曾經停頓過?也曾經停頓過了,因為那個時候大概10年前那時候我們林口的電廠那些新的燃煤機組還沒上來上來之後當然有稍微幅度上升一點但是整體目前的趨勢都是逐步在這幾年趨勢都是逐步在下降好,這個數字再提供好不好"},{"start":6806.394,"end":6834.915,"text":"我們看這個我現在都先引用你的報告啊經濟部的報告這裡面提到這個2015年核能123廠上在服役中在當時核能發電占比16%火力發電占比約80%所以火力發電的占比也提供10年來的可以嗎"},{"start":6836.569,"end":6862.098,"text":"可以,就會其實跟那個購煤有關係啦購煤有關係火力發電的占比當然這裡面這個我們這樣的數字寫法當然會這樣寫啦我是公務員我也會這樣寫啦但是如果我們要去探討真正要探討的話尤其是台電"},{"start":6863.524,"end":6864.005,"text":"我知道!我知道!"},{"start":6885.17,"end":6911.04,"text":"花了多少千億對不對合適啊如果有合適呢就不是這樣了對不對所以這個部分舊台電的立場舊台電這個事業的立場如果有合適的時候又是怎麼樣所以這個部分因為畢竟已經蓋了花了人民的納稅錢蓋了"},{"start":6915.56,"end":6917.921,"text":"台灣不能一直這樣啊。未來可能要怎麼樣去改變"},{"start":6945.563,"end":6973.935,"text":"政策不是不能改變嗎所以這個部分這個數字的提供很重要好這個經濟部的報告裡面也提到2023、2024分別編列預算增資1500億及1000億元並以特別預算補貼500億以支持台電的財務這個是有需要的這個是有需要的那這一次"},{"start":6976.052,"end":6992.12,"text":"有沒有考慮特別變略預算增資或是特別預算補貼這一次有沒有?有,我們也在爭取當中要強力的爭取所以本席認為不應該調漲電價因為現在這個我們的"},{"start":7004.488,"end":7005.909,"text":"三千六百一十七億元"},{"start":7033.835,"end":7038.88,"text":"但是因為在台灣已經用這個用詞不是我所創的不是我所創的部長"},{"start":7051.661,"end":7057.223,"text":"為了照顧民生、穩定物價、兼顧產業強烈的要去跟行政院、決策者要用超增稅收來去撥補"},{"start":7077.782,"end":7095.761,"text":"非不得已的時候當然我不願意我不希望家庭用電家庭用電會不會漲可不可以不漲當然不要漲啊家庭用電部長"},{"start":7096.445,"end":7096.926,"text":"所以現在有哪些數據家庭"},{"start":7118.649,"end":7140.708,"text":"用電的部分你們一定有幾個評估嗎?我是老公務員知道會有幾個評估嗎?可以講嗎?事實上我的報告也有提像現在我們在120度以下的因為不僅2004到現在沒有漲而且還曾經降過所以現在的120度以下是1.63那這個的價格跟"},{"start":7144.431,"end":7158.018,"text":"現在的成本價大概只有4折左右其實是非常非常的低反正我的強烈的也請你請部長強烈的去爭取台電不應調漲電價好謝謝"},{"start":7178.637,"end":7179.438,"text":"接下來我們請楊瓊英召委質詢。"},{"start":7196.007,"end":7206.833,"text":"昨天國發會本席邀請來做報告他說電價是以照顧民生、穩定物價、節約能源這三點你認同國發會的說法嗎?認同我們繼續討論電價審議委員會預計在這個月來進行換句話說4月份會有答案出來現在外界預估就是要漲價"},{"start":7223.023,"end":7230.147,"text":"但是我們不希望成真所以本期要請教您所送給審議委員會的資料有沒有要漲價他們台電在做相關的模擬的時候其實有好幾個情境那情境不太一樣都不太一樣情境不太一樣有沒有要漲價"},{"start":7245.394,"end":7255.366,"text":"有要漲價有要漲價你還笑得出來世上苦人多阿你認不認同目前台灣的社會裡頭世上苦人多"},{"start":7257.903,"end":7284.673,"text":"這個政府對這樣的一個照顧民生的問題一直是放在心上放在心上要實際在行動上啊你放在心上我們繼續來討論你現在所說的送給審議委員會的台電的資料是要漲價的好 我們就來看現在傳聞說4月份要答案出爐甚至連330度以下的級距也將要調漲"},{"start":7286.534,"end":7294.158,"text":"是不是如此?是不是如此?請教是不是如此?"},{"start":7294.158,"end":7313.866,"text":"330度以下創下紀錄民生用電要漲價是不是如此?你們送的資料是不是如此?我們送的資料有好幾個情境包含這個情境是嗎?也有包含這個情境包含這個情境換句話說就是要調漲那本席要請教在薪資沒有漲現在通膨嚴不嚴重?"},{"start":7316.15,"end":7323.114,"text":"您是經濟部長,通膨嚴不嚴重?大家是關心有沒有感同身受通膨的問題?本期再請教政府努力有沒有成效?現在所呈現的社會層面有沒有通膨?"},{"start":7338.903,"end":7364.475,"text":"通膨嚴不嚴重我們有通膨但是通膨跟很多國家比起來其實相對是空氣比較好請針對我們的情境我們的通膨上漲我們的薪資沒有漲在這個時間連民生330度以下都要漲電價您看您有所謂的照顧民生嗎"},{"start":7366.22,"end":7366.42,"text":"委員沒有講120度的"},{"start":7385.947,"end":7403.78,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7403.78,"end":7403.94,"text":"我不是這樣講"},{"start":7419.94,"end":7421.341,"text":"你剛剛一開始認同本席也認同國發會昨天所做的報告是照顧民生是穩定物價"},{"start":7440.109,"end":7444.511,"text":"所以否決你剛剛的說法你既然已經說你是原則以這個方向所以我們繼續來討論虧損不是一天兩天如果漲價可以解決那你為什麼去年10月決議是動漲是因為選舉的關係嗎因為這個考量嗎因為去年4月我們已經有調漲11%了是"},{"start":7467.48,"end":7491.697,"text":"為什麼過去10月份的時候他是動漲就沒問題現在你喊出不漲價不漲價會有危機是恐嚇人民嗎不是啦這個我們拿出來就是讓委員看得到臺電現在的臺位的狀況如果決定電價的機制你的考量到底是什麼剛剛說的三點原則是照顧民生是穩定物價而且是節約能源"},{"start":7497.26,"end":7499.281,"text":"所以本席請問你你這個電價漲物價會不會漲?"},{"start":7521.133,"end":7528.016,"text":"相關的這個聯動的指數我們都會去跟主計總署跟國防部這邊確定我漲價物價不會漲還是我漲價物價會漲人民會痛苦相關的聯動的部分我們都會注意到注意到什麼注意到到底民眾已經這麼苦了你注意到什麼告訴我們注意到什麼有這幾個因素你有告訴主計總署說如果電費漲價"},{"start":7550.484,"end":7573.456,"text":"價會上漲人民會痛苦嗎有沒有那這個也要讓台電能夠穩定供電有沒有請針對本席的提問那這幾個全部都是我們在電價審議會會去考量的因素啊剛剛本席所說的你也會講嗎會會會都會講我希望你真的會講所以這一個市政長期的問題不應該轉嫁給我們的民眾"},{"start":7578.069,"end":7588.148,"text":"那麼當然你們有你們的成本考量所以本期具體建議330度以下的民生用天是不可以漲尤其在這個階段通膨"},{"start":7590.874,"end":7611.332,"text":"新知部長讓人民這麼苦在這個階段連民生都在漲這是什麼政府啊讓人民怎麼生活讓人民怎麼生活超徵3000多億部長你很有魅力啊你應該要跟我們的行政院繼續我們當你的後盾啊繼續爭取"},{"start":7613.905,"end":7622.11,"text":"建構台電的一個平穩度這才是你部長要做的阿我講藍綠白都做你的後盾阿你能不能答應本席330度以下的民生用電不可以漲拜託你好不好你會不會答應我你跟我同不同調照顧人民330度以下不能漲在這個階段"},{"start":7643.277,"end":7669.94,"text":"你能不能答應我這個代表人民拜託你好不好我們會把我的意見轉告這個審議委員會你轉告你還沒答應我所以本期要再跟你討論台電的虧損原因這麼多台電的員工太辛苦了你作為部長董事長在這邊你們要有擔當這個是國家政策不能拿人民來當提款機"},{"start":7671.701,"end":7675.717,"text":"我要跟你討論的是電力的結構請問核電你會不會研議"},{"start":7679.124,"end":7694.651,"text":"核電的研議其實很多個因素最便宜的電價你會不會研議核電的研議有第一個法規的問題第二個它必須要經過安全檢查你告訴我你會不會研議它這個裡面的問題第一位你要有一個方向你才有辦法去執行跟委員報告好跟委員報告好時空條件不一樣核電能不能研議其實最重要是安全那這個安全的審查會花多久那要怎麼樣來確保"},{"start":7708.036,"end":7715.178,"text":"你有沒有主張?有沒有朝這個方向請他們去研議?有沒有?你要開源啊!你要節流啊!你的節流最便宜的你會不會請他們去研議?研議核電研議的可行性你會不會?請問你會不會考慮研議核電研議的可行性評估?"},{"start":7736.954,"end":7738.655,"text":"會不會?"},{"start":7738.655,"end":7738.995,"text":"請問會不會?"},{"start":7738.995,"end":7741.296,"text":"不知道答案,但是會不會?"},{"start":7741.296,"end":7757.301,"text":"因為核電的演繹的安全性是由核安會來審查的部分 核安會要確認我們台灣的核電是安全的 還有社會要有共識啦 不要拿人民當付款工具"},{"start":7758.528,"end":7769.757,"text":"開源跟節流沒有,節流最便宜的是核電你會不會本題具體建議你你去討論看看去研議核電研議的可行性"},{"start":7770.199,"end":7788.41,"text":"好不好?可不可以?會不會做?相關的立法院的動態我們都會注意本席問你會不會做?我們這邊都會注意相關的動態相關注意動態是什麼?現在的動態我直接講就是很ING啦會不會?要開源節流最便宜的電價會不會?"},{"start":7797.898,"end":7798.298,"text":"謝謝委員的意見最後一個議題"},{"start":7815.39,"end":7831.809,"text":"我們再看到核電是不是會延續,你們去討論要開源跟節流那另外你的節流再生能源購電的成本都是高於你106年到112年的4月底都是高於同期間的平均電價匯率"},{"start":7834.271,"end":7849.302,"text":"再生能源的價格要不要做討論請教大家都有疑慮喔大家都有疑慮喔那請問當人民有疑慮的時候你是不是應當要去討論"},{"start":7851.772,"end":7854.054,"text":"本期請教本期請教未來你購買價格會下降嗎?還是持續上升?未來一段時間之後一定會下降因為它會直接賣給民間"},{"start":7871.489,"end":7898.115,"text":"剛剛也有同仁也在強調大家有質疑我也不希望我們的社會有質疑所以具體建議請你將我們的再生能源購電成本剛剛也有我們大企劃委員也提出請你將這個書面資料詳實給本席也給經濟委員會我相信藍綠白大家都希望能夠清楚怎麼樣來開源節流所以再一次強調在現階段"},{"start":7900.658,"end":7909.3,"text":"事上苦人多通膨心智不漲我們的民生用電不可漲不可漲"},{"start":7921.069,"end":7921.809,"text":"主席,我想請王部長"},{"start":7943.271,"end":7963.801,"text":"部長我想今天到目前為止每一位委員對於電價要調漲都是持反對的意見那我剛剛仔細看了你們的這個報告書你解釋說台電的虧損如此巨大全部的原因都是歸於近年燃料上漲特別是烏鵝戰爭後的飆漲"},{"start":7966.062,"end":7987.044,"text":"五二戰爭是在2022年的2月爆發那我記得同年的3月14號您在經濟委員會您還記得你是怎麼回應那個高金素美委員的嗎可能委員再提示一下我相信你可能不記得了那我放個影片你看一下好不好"},{"start":7989.957,"end":8011.996,"text":"他說你說我們跟俄羅斯天然氣的合約在今年3月到期我們替代俄羅斯的採購方案談得不錯比俄羅斯的還要便宜那為什麼兩年前比俄羅斯天然氣煤炭還要便宜的合約卻變成今天要漲電價的理由呢"},{"start":8012.937,"end":8015.239,"text":"跟委員報告當時的情境講的是第一個我們的長約原來有跟俄羅斯買那後來沒有跟俄羅斯跟別人買那我講的是我們跟別人買的長約的價格比俄羅斯的便宜"},{"start":8027.85,"end":8030.092,"text":"不能這樣講齁因為這個是2月那後來的能源價格是逐月一直在攀升"},{"start":8052.793,"end":8071.362,"text":"你又要跟大家講說國際的能源價格高得不得了所以要漲電價我們還能相信你嗎?我們還能相信你嗎?你會不會已經透支了人民對你的信任?不是 這個採購會其實都可以透明讓委員可以瞭解那我在請教部長經濟部在2019年提出電價調控的三原則是什麼?"},{"start":8078.107,"end":8094.273,"text":"你記得嗎?這個三個原則是什麼?你不記得了?就是照顧民生、穩定物價跟節約能源那這個三個原則今年變成五個原則部長你知道這五個原則是什麼嗎?"},{"start":8095.053,"end":8123.392,"text":"我們也會兼顧產業的情形也不大記得了就是反應成本照顧民生穩定物價節能減碳使用者付費那這個說實在對於我來說我看了實在是也非常的難過就好像剛才趙薇強講的說苦民所苦啊真的不能用口號治國今天今年新增的這兩個原則在本席看來就是我要漲電價"},{"start":8124.913,"end":8125.974,"text":"我想請問你今年假設真的漲電價"},{"start":8143.601,"end":8146.362,"text":"會漲到漁業用電跟農業用電嗎?相關的過往我們會怎麼樣去評估的情形我們今年也會注意我可不可以要求部長農民這麼辛苦漁民這麼辛苦是不是漁業電價跟農業電價可以動漲您可以在這裡跟本席做一個保證嗎?"},{"start":8167.15,"end":8172.214,"text":"電價的部分都是審議會審議那委員的意見我們也會反映給所以部長你支不支持動漲農漁業的用電這個部分應該由審議會來決定不是我能夠決定所以部長你是完全沒有主張嗎你能夠照顧農民照顧漁民嗎能夠動漲農漁用電的這個電價嗎我們對相關的民生的用電我們都會很詳細的來考量"},{"start":8193.45,"end":8200.273,"text":"所以部長是不支持不支持所以你沒有辦法有把握說動漲農業用電或漁業用電嗎相關的這些原則照顧的相關的民生等等我們確實在審議會所以台灣在電價調整的時候都做非常細膩的考量"},{"start":8212.579,"end":8240.464,"text":"我看了你們這本解釋雖然是2022二月發生了二屋戰爭天然氣價格的確是大大上漲但是呢其實天然氣的供需與市場因應的條件相對非常意外的好所以在2023年天然氣的國際軍價幾乎就已經回落到接近戰爭之前但今天寫的專案報告是完全沒有呈現這個事實"},{"start":8241.924,"end":8245.386,"text":"這個部長怎麼解釋?為什麼已經回穩了我們還要漲電價?為什麼?是不是接近戰爭前?我真的是在這裡要求部長一定要苦民所苦不要增漲電價喔那如果假設國際能源已經回穩了那漲電價的理由就不復存在了為什麼我們還要漲電價呢?"},{"start":8270.316,"end":8271.577,"text":"我在這裡在強調在憲政慣例上目前部長你們就是看守內閣你們提的漲價理由並不充分所以基於政治責任看守內閣"},{"start":8285.703,"end":8299.677,"text":"就不應該做如此影響民生經濟的決定和況是之前就做了這麼多的這個判斷錯誤所以呢本席在這裡要求看守內閣不得漲電價不得審議電價應交由新內閣於9月的時候再行研議"},{"start":8306.322,"end":8316.766,"text":"現在其實政權是延續的那所以我們不認為說第一個這個都不能做事情而且我們本來在的時候就應該我再請問你啊主計總數預估今年的CPI是多少你知道嗎他預估是1.85左右那你覺得這個數字是不是已經反映了漲電價之後的數字主計總數是說是沒有算還沒有算嗎還沒有算那是否"},{"start":8335.114,"end":8339.596,"text":"這樣子會超過2%的通膨警戒線有沒有可能這個部分就會看我們爭取的補助的情形還有電價怎麼調整的部分你不能夠拿這個民眾的稅金我們這等於是民脂民膏來補貼"},{"start":8353.402,"end":8354.382,"text":"台灣現在到底是不是缺點?"},{"start":8375.396,"end":8382.441,"text":"沒有缺電那不缺電為什麼要講電價呢?不是說國際能源已經降價了嗎?沒有沒有,像委員講的天然氣的部分事實上現在的天然氣價格跟戰爭錢仍然是高於60%那剛剛楊委員昭偉他有提到說到底有沒有要這個核電、核酸有沒有要研議"},{"start":8399.541,"end":8409.248,"text":"相關的這個部分委員會第一個當然面臨法規的問題那第二個核電最主要是社會要有公司安全的部分相關的部分都是大家社會要來討論的問題你支持核電嗎?"},{"start":8418.035,"end":8441.651,"text":"電力的部分有在運轉我們現在都會讓它安全但是要不要研議這個部分是一個問題你會不會做核電研議的可行性評估你支持做核電評估的可行性評估嗎在電力的核電的安全的維運這個我們都會做相關的評估但是對核電要不要研議的這個部分其實有非常多的議題要討論"},{"start":8443.052,"end":8471.508,"text":"最後本席還是在這裡呼籲啊能夠在看守內閣的期間不要漲電價謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝接下來我們請鄭振前委員請做詢談主席好我想請一下王美花部長我們再請部長"},{"start":8477.946,"end":8503.683,"text":"部長好首先感謝主席今天安排了這個有關於電價調漲的專案報告我在想說在進行這報告之前的時候我昨天看到一個美國能源部最新的一個說帖他說美國能源部建議全美現有的藍煤發電廠都轉型成核能發電廠部長你知道這個新聞嗎?"},{"start":8507.065,"end":8531.921,"text":"我有看到這個新聞坦白說我看到這個新聞我也是有點意外啦因為我在想說我們的政府其實某個部分也很以美國的一個政策為主要的參考的一個狀態那美國內運部竟然會建議全美的燃煤發電廠都改成核電廠那這是一個很重要的一個訊息然後另外一個部分就是在日本"},{"start":8532.501,"end":8545.631,"text":"他們也很清楚他們在2030年預計要讓整個核能的發電量占比提高到兩成天然氣的一個使用從2014年的40%還要降到2030年的27%我想這數字部長應該都很清楚對不對"},{"start":8552.249,"end":8570,"text":"對,各域都有相關的問題我想請教,其實很多委員也都問到這狀態因為我們其實訪談最近有提出一個原子反應器設施管制法的一個修法案希望能夠讓就是合一合二重啟跟合三有延逸的可能性你對於這樣的一個修法方向你支不支持?"},{"start":8571.295,"end":8585.294,"text":"我們尊重委員的提案我們尊重委員提案那委員會在委員的討論所以您認為說台灣目前就是整個在堅持的一個非核路線的時候你覺得是不是要繼續堅持下去"},{"start":8586.964,"end":8613.066,"text":"其實當時講的非核其實就是目前的法規就是運轉到40年所以我們是讓它運轉到40年那事實上核二因為沒有乾除所以它事實上還不到40年所以你意思是說當時講非核狀態只是因為現有核電廠的一個營運的一個時間並不是真正的一個政策不是一個能源政策的一個目標是這樣子嗎?是考慮到就是核一、核二、核三現有的實際狀態而不是一個政策目標"},{"start":8616.108,"end":8643.033,"text":"我意思是說我們講的非核是因為讓這些核電用到40年以後停止那因為核能在台灣跟在美國很大的不同是確實台灣在地震帶台灣很小那核廢料到現在要保住所以非核的能源目前執政黨目前來說對於非核的能源政策還繼續堅持嗎還是說他並不是這樣子不是一個政策堅持他只是因為針對核一核二核三實際運作的狀態"},{"start":8646.074,"end":8669.182,"text":"40年到了所以才變成非核是這個意思嗎?在原來的這個非核確實都讓它運轉到40年沒有錯所以它不是一個政策目標所以說如果說這樣子合一合二合三它的運作可以往後延伸的時候那非核的目標能源政策就可以先把它放在一邊是這個意思但是展演的部分就涉及到非常多的議題"},{"start":8672.344,"end":8692.297,"text":"為什麼特別講這個部分因為我們今天在講說整個電價調漲那我想說如果發電的結構沒有調整的時候台灣的電價永遠會漲不停這是一個很重要的一個關鍵我們來看幾個數字我們在看整個 原本在想說要用綠能來補核能其實目前已經嚴重跳票了"},{"start":8692.857,"end":8716.35,"text":"以天然氣來補核能的時候會讓暖化問題更為嚴重我覺得這是我們在看這一次電費調漲的時候我其實會有一個政策面的考量在這個地方我們往下看一下整個數字來看的時候台電年度的一個發購電量其實我們很清楚看到就是2016跟2023年的一個比較"},{"start":8718.831,"end":8732.568,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8733.114,"end":8733.414,"text":"我們再往下"},{"start":8750.724,"end":8764.775,"text":"我在想說我們這一次整個電價大漲的時候我看我們提出來的報告當中主要沒有提到綠能沒有提到綠能價格的問題沒有提到核能往下佔比的問題主要又提到是國際價格上漲 對不對"},{"start":8767.219,"end":8781.731,"text":"我有提到綠能的部分綠能的部分因為綠能的部分成本其實還是偏高嘛我們看數字來說的時候按照去年的一個發電成本的時候每一度是大概3.49元對不對3.89元"},{"start":8784.873,"end":8805.972,"text":"是這個數字嗎?台電的平均發電成本去年的發電成本稅前是3.95稅後是4.17所以等於是每賣一度電就會虧一點多元的一個這個狀態那我這邊特別來看一個情況就是我們來看整個台灣的一個電價走勢就是"},{"start":8809.675,"end":8818.001,"text":"08年4月的時候每度電價是2.4071元到2016年4月的時候每一度電價是2.5488元就是這8年來的時候上漲5.895.89那麼從2016年到2023年的時候呢到現在每一度的那個電價是到3.1154元上漲22.23%這三個時間點是"},{"start":8836.109,"end":8858.923,"text":"在馬政府時代的時候上漲5.89%在蔡英文政府的時候還沒有下台因為這次還要上漲10%按照之前丟出來的風向的時候已經上漲22.23%所以我們這邊要特別提到一個點就是說在小英政府"},{"start":8860.204,"end":8881.016,"text":"最後一次電價審議的時候如果馬上提高10%的時候他可能就會在卸任之前為台灣留下了一個高電價的一個時代那我們一定不會見這個狀態因為昨天 龔明星主委他在回應我們委員答覆的時候他說如果我們現在電價"},{"start":8883.206,"end":8887.329,"text":"調漲了10%對物價的直接影響大概在0.1%多可是對整體後續延伸的波動效果會超過2%"},{"start":8899.059,"end":8904.244,"text":"這是國民新主委昨天回答我們委員的一個答覆所以說當電價調漲．他說超過2%對,波動效果超過2%2%就是我們通常的一個警戒線"},{"start":8919.52,"end":8921.703,"text":"因為這一次目前經濟部這一次有提出一個電價調整方案是全面調漲"},{"start":8937.044,"end":8963.482,"text":"民生用電調漲、工業用電調漲全部都調漲特高外面調漲那這個部分的時候呢選前的時候全部都動漲選後就一次要調期大家非常的惶恐那我們希望對於民生用電的部分能夠不調就盡量不調那我同時要針對這個部分也提到我們的原署之前都有節能加電補助目前是不是會繼續會續辦"},{"start":8965.983,"end":8986.364,"text":"目前還在辦理當中然後會不會擴大舉辦未來的部分能源署有在爭取未來的經費所以針對今天的質詢本席有兩個主張第一個希望民生用電不要調漲第二個希望能源署節能家電補助能夠續辦能夠擴大辦理好不好是是是謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘謝謝"},{"start":9002.602,"end":9007.705,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9024.889,"end":9026.21,"text":"議員：發言委員：發言委員："},{"start":9055.283,"end":9057.064,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9081.906,"end":9082.367,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":9111.182,"end":9128.508,"text":"我們現在去年已經進行是第339然後今年正推前所以就有做339然後我們上一陣子用原來的工算的能量價格去勝算然後還有用電的那個有一定程度的狀況下算出來"},{"start":9419.619,"end":9448.14,"text":"好 謝謝我們繼續開會我們請邱志偉委員請做詢答 謝謝好 謝謝好 先主席有請經濟部部長我們再請王部長能源署有署長誰能源署有署長能源署"},{"start":9452.503,"end":9472.349,"text":"委員長,離岸風電算是再生能源重要的一個內涵嘛那離岸風電能夠確實達標對這個能源轉型有很大的幫助那這個離岸風電已經執行了三期嘛那現在我們也希望說透過離岸風電的這個能夠協助國內產業能夠國產化對不對"},{"start":9477.625,"end":9483.205,"text":"那中鋼公司也成立一個新的海基新的海基在哪裡你知道嗎?"},{"start":9484.127,"end":9511.898,"text":"在新達港那邊在我那邊,你知道嗎?對,是我達港幫你順耶是所以新達海基肩負著這個南部這個離岸風電的一個重要的這個龍頭他要協助這個在地南部的這個企業廠商能夠達到這個國產化北部已經有一家了嘛,對不對?是那南部、北部嚴重失衡啊你知道那個新達海基目前的狀況你了解嗎?"},{"start":9514.143,"end":9534.877,"text":"有,我們都有密切跟他聯繫,那新的海基﹖你們講一下目前新的海基的狀況要不要說一下部長,你要了解,這個很嚴重我有注意你有注意,但是你不夠了解啊我最了解你投入成本要多少?你要建廠,要不要4、50億?"},{"start":9537.938,"end":9563.934,"text":"那你這個從開始你要有學習曲線學習曲線你每接一個案子不見得會有利潤而且會虧損對不對因為需要長時間的這個學習好這個臥序這個訂 Line 一減再減最後到交出幾件的這個Jacket六座是原先是幾座原先訂單是幾座最早是56座56座後來變成6座"},{"start":9566.462,"end":9595.259,"text":"好,六座,虧多少錢你知道嗎?很多錢啦齁,很多錢你了解了齁虧,了很多錢,再來中能,中能是這個中鋼自己的這個離岸風電,中能幾座?中能的風潮就順利很多了對啦,他也是,你跟我談一下,他還是學習曲線的過程當中嘛,他也了解嘛齁"},{"start":9597.648,"end":9623.643,"text":"再來 這兩件做了你要協助這個國內的特別是中鋼成立這個新的海基要全力來達成這個離岸封電 對不對國燕事業這個伊布隆斯扮演重要角色但你要協助能夠讓這個國產化到位讓這個新的海基有它的競爭力能夠協助能源轉型"},{"start":9627.251,"end":9653.657,"text":"國營事業不是不只配合但是國營事業也要中鋼也是上市公司他也要對股東負責那你後面有沒有訂單我們有讓他跟另外一家一起配合來做這個另外兩家南方聯盟嘛這我比你更清楚了南方聯盟問題是說他們聯盟組成的你訂單也是要下給新達海基啊"},{"start":9655.242,"end":9681.113,"text":"那訂單從哪邊來?臺電、中油在不在?臺電、中油是也在啊,臺電、中油要不要做離岸風電?他們就是有參與這個中能的還有不是啊,他們自己也要,他們兩家公司也跟另外一家公司共同合資要承、要承這個有離岸風電嘛3.1的部分是那離岸風電要不要jacket?要啊要啊那跟誰下?"},{"start":9683.029,"end":9707.942,"text":"台電、中油這個股份也佔了將近50%那這個訂單下給誰?是國內還是國外?還是你照理說我合理的這個邏輯推演國營事業要挺國營事業,對不對?好,你台電、中油你要做Jacket你要做離岸洪水下機組那你訂單為什麼沒有下給這個新的海基?"},{"start":9709.991,"end":9719.584,"text":"應該說還沒有下,不是不下給新台海這個不是正確的答案請教一下,這個署長你的理解是怎麼樣?"},{"start":9720.788,"end":9743.031,"text":"那個有關於整體的供需我們大概就國內整體來看那國內有兩個供應體系那開發商他會去做綜合的評估那所以這個評估 開發商台電終於也算開發商對不對也算開發商好開發商你應該有一定的政策引導能力你如果沒有辦法全部下給南部你就會獨厚北部"},{"start":9743.852,"end":9760.496,"text":"那獨厚北部的原因你要把它找出來應該是南北雙雄 對不對雙引擎結果南部引擎全部熄火那海電中有作為開發商你也大概有50%的股份你沒有決定權把一些訂單交給信達海基嗎我了解是一座都沒有這怎麼會變成這樣你讓國營事業來支持離岸風電那你卻讓它自生自滅"},{"start":9774.315,"end":9785.403,"text":"那離岸封建你要如何達標據我了解 這個訂單都已經下了沒有下給信達海基那個還能做那個總經理都在"},{"start":9786.593,"end":9806.762,"text":"你們兩家公司控股投資大概百分之五十,將近百分之五十台電投資百分之二十,中油投資百分之二十那就四十那四十有一定的影響力吧,比方說你要蓋四十座你能不能用你的控股的影響力,最起碼有十座有二十座給中鋼嘛,給進大海基"},{"start":9810.383,"end":9833.558,"text":"這個部長你知道這個事情嗎目前目前因為這個案子還在公司內還沒有送出去就整個投資案合作案還沒有送出公司所以未來最後的結果可能全部集中在北部啦最後的結果如果沒有政策的引導支持的話如果按照台電中油跟另外一家這個合資的廠商去做決策的話"},{"start":9835.03,"end":9856.068,"text":"一季都沒有可能有新的海基啊那你要怎樣?要重更新的海基?未來3、4年還有多久?連台電、中油、控股的公司、投資40%的公司都沒有支持重更新的海基喔!這樣來啊!那其他台灣省還有可能支持?"},{"start":9857.842,"end":9863.111,"text":"連代理人都有自己欺負你都沒可能收聽啊你其他客戶想要怎麼收聽?要怎麼去跟新來的去頂?"},{"start":9868.215,"end":9892.333,"text":"這個商務部分我們再來好好研究一下那國營事業要收聽吶這個新南海自己也是這個響應政府這個能源展行國營事業帶頭來這個帶動南方聯盟在追求國產化讓離岸風電能夠在南台灣落地生根能夠成長茁壯到現在幾年了2018到現在五年時間你虧損了多少錢你看看"},{"start":9897.605,"end":9907.701,"text":"那未來你還會虧損多少?如果沒有政策的支持、沒有政策的引導的話?這個部長你要做個政策的宣示好不好?"},{"start":9909.294,"end":9927.369,"text":"這個回去我會瞭解一下相關的情形那因為一部分是上業的談判啦齁但是另外委員講的政策可以怎麼樣瞭解跟相關的協助 這個我會來注意一下這個會有示範效果 欸 連國營事業自己兄弟都不需要聽 以開發商"},{"start":9929.931,"end":9953.992,"text":"會不會效法?我會來注意一下相關的情形。要注意很多下,不是注意一下而已。是。是。那另外啊新達電廠這個燃氣這個我們混勤5%那個那個曾市長我們去主持這個這個凍土嘛齁這個我們一起組成凍土2024要提前達標了齁"},{"start":9955.376,"end":9969.686,"text":"那未來這個新達電廠混清燃氣的這部分未來你有沒有什麼更具體的計畫你要達到這個50%國外電廠都可以達到50%那你這個新達電廠什麼時候可以達標到50%"},{"start":9975.646,"end":9996.163,"text":"那個跟委員報告首先你剛才講的第一件事就是打5%以上其實我們現在已經測試過10%的混燒了這是第一件事那第二件事是要達到50%要跟那個機組能夠相匹配那因為新達我們現在在測試主要是氫的供應等等相關周邊的問題那機組本身我們選的是相對來講您知道新達的舊款的機組比較他年齡就是說他設計比較早"},{"start":10004.25,"end":10022.283,"text":"所以我們需要花時間去校正就調出它的數字以後要適合的機組可能才能夠到50%所以這個差的是一個好的起點是的那你們要持續你要請這個經濟部長這個王部長你要請中油台電共同來合作把過去的藍莓的興達電廠"},{"start":10024.423,"end":10039.462,"text":"把他變成永續零碳的示範電廠這是一個對他們居民健康的一個很大的確保這也是追求這個永續零碳的一個示範作用"},{"start":10042.516,"end":10056.409,"text":"這個就是我們在努力的方向我們也希望讓他的燃煤電廠可以怎麼樣去轉型所以你那個舊燃煤1號、2號2023已經除役了嗎?除役他就不會再運轉了嗎?"},{"start":10058.326,"end":10071.465,"text":"還是他這個除役但是他還是備用他是僅備機組他就是除役的原則上都沒有用那我請教你那這個3、4號今年年底也要轉備用"},{"start":10073.39,"end":10098.884,"text":"都轉成緊備機組所以施作都轉成備用 是當初你說的是1號、2號是要除役喔除役是不必盯擋的跟委員報告 事實上我們從除役到現在確實都沒有運轉過都沒有運轉過 因為它的在什麼樣的狀況之下會運轉它的條件非常嚴格才會去啟動它我可不可以這樣說 這個雖然是備用但形同除役"},{"start":10101.024,"end":10109.79,"text":"這個運轉的可能性微乎其微我要回去跟我的鄉親怎樣?你又找理由又攔美了"},{"start":10110.782,"end":10137.733,"text":"不會啦?不會不會原則上都沒有在那個嚴格條件下都不會去用那這個其實是從國家的安全角度來設計的情形是那去年的這個通過了這個疫後這個條例那我們針對這個用電的補貼我們也花了500億嘛對500億嘛是用電補貼那今年有沒有針對這部分也編了預算因為這個條例是到2025年"},{"start":10143.307,"end":10146.891,"text":"議後的總共是317億 這個經費是會用到2025年目前都還在持續受理相關的申請案所以那個增資案會順利完成嗎?"},{"start":10159.045,"end":10160.186,"text":"同樣面對財務問題的這個中友他有這個需求"},{"start":10177.858,"end":10196.789,"text":"中油部分我們會有內部的一些討論的情形公會也在看你改善了台電的這個財務結構財務這個體制那中油的部分也一樣是有財政的困難那他們提出這個政治的需求那為什麼會有不同標準"},{"start":10197.857,"end":10210.55,"text":"我們的做法就是說比如說中油賣給台電的LNG我們就讓它十足的去反映成本那這個部分就可以讓中油不要再一直在虧損那至於其他的措施我們會檢討"},{"start":10213.511,"end":10236.258,"text":"目前我們有跟中友內部討論,我們內部有做一些調整我們內部會詳細的討論方總,你同意部長的說法嗎?是是,報告委員事實上中友公司的虧損也蠻巨大的目前的負債比是90%所以董事會還是希望能夠增資吧所以我們希望還是能夠增資啦但部長不同意啊"},{"start":10239.486,"end":10240.127,"text":"接下來我們請陳昌明委員請做詢答"},{"start":10268.422,"end":10274.013,"text":"主席好首先有請紅胸肌部王部長我們再請王部長"},{"start":10280.267,"end":10302.952,"text":"委員好 王部長好剛剛邱志偉講我們離岸婚禮的國產化我記得在沈仲欽部長的時候我理事都提出來那邱志偉委員講的話是一個很切實的事情56隻只有6隻在台灣做我當時都有提出來你們說不會啦我們怎麼樣現在連訂單都不發給我們國產的產商"},{"start":10308.934,"end":10315.208,"text":"剛剛出座的時候北部那一家的實力政商關係非常好我只跟部長提醒一件事情"},{"start":10317.029,"end":10340.72,"text":"當時為了離岸鋒利我們要趕快去完成五十六隻、六隻在台灣慢慢磨其他的都在韓國湊因為俄系有在韓國有設工廠啊到最後沒有辦法大家就迷迷糊糊這樣過去我們都一清二楚講了你們也不聽以後我們再批評你其實他講的完全是對要注意這樣的一個現象"},{"start":10342.435,"end":10361.645,"text":"因為很多的業界反映出來 國產化 機械設備下來買肉 你們不下訂單 你們被那種大財團 被外國人把台灣當作殖民地的公司這樣你難得好過關於講了好幾次 我希望調查 我們也會去了解好不好"},{"start":10362.485,"end":10365.566,"text":"今天委員會主要是討論我們台電電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊配套的一個措施在"},{"start":10392.472,"end":10403.481,"text":"我看過你們的報告,你們只要講國際燃料價格飆漲是台電虧損的主要原因。接下來在你又談到俄烏戰爭以後,台電過敏從2020年64塊美元到2020年276美元漲了3倍。中油的那個"},{"start":10419.005,"end":10447.736,"text":"那個天然氣每立方由8塊錢漲到16塊錢漲了一倍所謂你裡面2023年國際燃料價格雖然有回穩但是遲於高檔回穩跟高檔你跟我解釋一下回穩是回到以前的樣子還是說我在高檔董事長會給我一個介紹因為早來早去早到現在大家沒有人去"},{"start":10449.686,"end":10451.668,"text":"我第一個要檢討台電的人才都很優秀"},{"start":10478.306,"end":10498.204,"text":"你們台電購買都是長期合約,怎麼這現在突然漲了3倍啊?哇媽,去到太雄啊,你也要去內閣一下,我們是長期合約的夥伴,啊中油也是一樣,長期購買那幾個地方幾個地方,把你去到管你不會跳啊?任人宰割啊?"},{"start":10499.185,"end":10510.334,"text":"跟委員報告齁 那個是平均價 在2022的時候齁 那個現貨曾經漲到400多塊但是因為我們產業價跟現貨有一定的比例啦你用現貨價來比 啊你產業價也要降下來嘛 有有 就是因為有產業價才600、200多塊 再講我時間我那邊 我自己講我時間要多少"},{"start":10526.767,"end":10543.444,"text":"你們說兩年虧錢的六千億好,我算賬給你們聽第一個我們一千五百億的補貼公務預算五百億的特別預算現在你增資又一千億加起來兩千"},{"start":10545.592,"end":10558.507,"text":"啊加起來三千億喔你虧六千億減掉這三千億政府已經負帳給你們了喔這第一點政府沒有負帳政府都是講假的政府沒有負帳你們又不敢講來來來來等一下你不要急著"},{"start":10563.513,"end":10575.655,"text":"你2022年你電價調了8%你說大概會增加300億的收入2023年又調了11%你們報告會增加600億的收入加加壓才要多一兆像這樣加壓給你倒四兆6千億減這個政府補貼還有電費調價的上漲一千億這樣起來你現在跟虧損兩千億"},{"start":10592.912,"end":10611.751,"text":"阿兩千在內地你講齁那個再生能源佔了九百億這裡面如果依照你們收交的成本大概你都付出了四百億這內地你說阿只佔了沒有什麼影響所以在這包括民間的電廠在這裡面現在你給他兩千要給虧損喔"},{"start":10615.768,"end":10643.707,"text":"政府補貼3千億兩次電價的上漲將近1千億除了2千億所以我不知道你這個小安若生那你這個小波塊董事長我很尊敬你尤其你跟我講說跑到我好望角去剛剛發生火災我曉得除了大概只差你兩個小時你對我的承諾你用句子我很感謝你但是一帳一帳歸一帳來算啊"},{"start":10646.269,"end":10666.79,"text":"所以你現在這個小破關是什麼替蔡英文總統匯合政策辯論其實很多錯誤在這邊你是現在我們未來新任的賴清晨總清理戰場拿出來實際算下來你們在包括"},{"start":10668.717,"end":10693.144,"text":"再生能源大概你們兩年多買了一千億剩下只有一千億所以現在跟你講能源政策調配稅喔我給你算一算不是你虧錢國家補貼你說為了穩定民生物價你當削破塊我看不是你是當蔡英文總統的削破塊當未來賴清德的總統清理戰鬥團的削破塊國家稅收來給你補貼吧"},{"start":10698.186,"end":10715.521,"text":"你現在要漲當然要有合理漲的一個程度但是這個都很浮動你幾十年沒在說我核能症會有絕對不會漲價今天一個高了一個段落蔡英文總統也要下台了 好啊"},{"start":10716.321,"end":10728.852,"text":"都是你給我們部長我先把責任虧給他替代得全的全力這個報告裡面你們財務的問題股貼了3000億還有你電價漲價了大概又增加了1000億2000億2000億再生能源大概兩年的話1000億多的支出"},{"start":10742.602,"end":10749.985,"text":"大概只剩下一千億還說為了什麼穩定物價我來看一下你寫的原來反應成本照顧民生穩定物價節能減碳使用者互惠現在你電價"},{"start":10768.919,"end":10782.682,"text":"你天然劑要不要漲?你水要不要漲?那天我看高金素美在質詢我們的陳院長的時候他說三次漲價還講到馬英九總統就是漲價讓國民黨都整個落選現在你們清理戰場用這一套"},{"start":10791.074,"end":10808.965,"text":"什麼人做時代,什麼人擔當啊?你們是在消遲民間的一粒,說到你們很困難。你們現在頂多只負債一千億而已啊。不可以說到,來啦,來承認嘛,人有成本。國家已經三千億海連了嘛。"},{"start":10809.741,"end":10812.685,"text":"對嗎?你2022年漲價8%增加400億2023年電費漲價成本漲價600億你們自己寫的不會一計收入"},{"start":10824.292,"end":10826.333,"text":"我們現在如果是照委員的講法你看我們現在就是累虧3000多億對不對"},{"start":10841.701,"end":10845.004,"text":"因為台電人生財太好每一個人太努力你們被政策所破壞了啦所以你們都苦不堪言大家不要講話而已啊"},{"start":10860.319,"end":10871.406,"text":"我是跟你講的老實話,我這個選份算出來你就知道到底虧損多少好不好?因為你一直急著要來我這邊叫我吵架我要是不是好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝接下來我們請賴瑞榮委員請做詢答謝謝主席齁請王部長"},{"start":10892.888,"end":10911.733,"text":"市長,我想還是要先從這個這20年來其實台灣在進行一個能源政策的一個轉型當然我們核能我們希望降低這個肺核價也是大家草野的共識也到立到了法裡面包括我們看到合一合二的光執政的國民黨的這個地方政府也是在"},{"start":10912.213,"end":10912.233,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":10928.336,"end":10958.336,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":10958.356,"end":10958.876,"text":"對台灣的未來其實不是一件好事情"},{"start":10974.73,"end":10998.508,"text":"那我們來看一下現在台電包括我們遇到了什麼樣的一個問題其實最關鍵的你看這個電價過去以來其實在國民黨時代一樣有漲有跌都有但是民黨政府的時代其實也是但是這樣努力在控制剛剛部長的報告裡也有提到但是現在遇到的最大的一個大概就是這二屋戰爭包括部長的報告裡面的結論也提到了"},{"start":10998.868,"end":11028.16,"text":"而物戰爭造成了這個國際的燃料價格暴漲這個還是虧損主因虧損主因那所以政府這段時間也做了很多的一些撥補那台電是國營事業台電虧損就是國家虧損就是老百姓整整體的虧損所以這個問題當然我們要去面對解決我們也不能夠讓台電持續的虧損那當這個價格原料取得價格跟整個售出有這樣的一個落差的時候當然要適度嘛不然對於"},{"start":11029.461,"end":11031.202,"text":"是,我們這個相關的部分都會一起整體來做考量"},{"start":11055.693,"end":11081.334,"text":"那我也看到你的報告裡面其實也提到了其實我看到你甚至於反映成本是你的一個關鍵性的因素我們來看一下其實在台灣的這個電價的部分其實跟其他世界各國比不管是住宅、工業其實都算是相當控制在一個比較低的狀況所以看到出來其實政府的一個努力希望控制那但是確實是因為整個戰爭的衝突造成價格的漲了之後"},{"start":11083.456,"end":11104.582,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11105.247,"end":11127.316,"text":"這個部分院裡面在涉算那部長你提出來就總是讓大家知道就是說因為接下來要處理的是電價審議了那審議在談這件事情總是先看到政府在這件事情的決心嘛在我的角度上面我認為比較賺錢的或者是高這個應該由他們來補啦你不應該由國家來幫你出這個錢但是對於民生甚至有可能會造成物價波動的這一塊應該由國家再多幫點忙"},{"start":11130.017,"end":11157.894,"text":"那我認為國家在撥補是在補這一塊補民生、補一般的小老百姓可能會影響到甚至物價的波動的那這一塊部長這一塊我們政府做什麼努力至少超過一千億的爭取吧是我們是希望有一千億以上的爭取那現在月裡面正在射算如果能到一千五百億更好嘛就是說我覺得這也是個政府的態度啦如果政府也一樣出來之後那未來如果再對於這些用電比較多的也用"},{"start":11158.114,"end":11184.138,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11184.398,"end":11200.644,"text":"幾乎你看我們特高壓這一塊也很多的半導體產業基本上這幾年的獲利狀況都相當不錯那確實他卻占到了我們34%的一個售電的部分那等於一塊錢幾乎是700戶這些701戶的用掉了793億度的電占34%那如果他沒有去合理的調整這些的話等於由人民來負擔我認為這個確實也不公平"},{"start":11211.267,"end":11232.585,"text":"我也認為他們也應該也願意來承擔這個要不然你電明明成本就這麼高卻要由國家來補貼你所以部長這個方向上是我們都會一起來做委員的意見都會一起來評估拿給審議會來做參考那另外一個當然大家關切的是他對於民生的一個影響包括像現在的CPI的部分到"},{"start":11234.927,"end":11262.268,"text":"1.85那大家預估如果漲10%的話大概會再增加0.12那大概到2左右那我先問一下部長2這樣的數字的話對在全球跟台灣來看來是一個什麼樣的數字2%事實上對全世界來講相對還是比較穩定的一個情形所以政府一直有在注意這件事情我覺得這個也要不斷的讓人民知道我們一方面在抓著國家的大的整體政策方向"},{"start":11263.789,"end":11279.578,"text":"讓電力讓台電整體永續經營但一方面對於民生物價的影響我們也很努力在關切著控制在一個好的範圍內不要造成那這件事情我也希望在未來電價審議委員會也要充分的去討論它對於整個未來的民生"},{"start":11279.838,"end":11299.65,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11300.211,"end":11309.802,"text":"委員剛剛有問過啦假設是用這個120度以下的這個部分他如果假設是漲5%他一個月是增加9塊錢增加9塊錢對那如果是330度的部分那一個月是增加34塊錢好"},{"start":11318.371,"end":11336.085,"text":"我蠻希望不斷的讓外界知道因為有時候講那個趴數大家好像會也會很緊張比較不了解狀況是什麼樣但如果講那個金額的部分的話也許大家了解大概是影響層面是多大然後多少人會受到影響當然這個是它第一個另外當然是對於物價間的波動就是它會產生什麼樣影響因為有可能還有"},{"start":11336.785,"end":11342.348,"text":"接下來剛剛也提到核電的部分看來不是一個好處理的現在包括草野之間也都有這樣的一個共識非核家園所以我想核電應該不是我們現在主要處理這件事情的一個好的方案"},{"start":11364.734,"end":11381.627,"text":"合電的部分當然第一個他有法規的問題那第二個事實上就像委員講的我們目前的情形都是希望他用到40年年限並沒有提早但是呢比如說合一的電廠跟合二的電廠甚至都是因為這個燃料池滿了"},{"start":11383.749,"end":11388.692,"text":"都提早要停機就像剛剛講到了嘛對新北市政府大家其實對一些核電的使用還是有不同的意見他不是一個我們現在的更何況核廢料更何況核安的部分安全的部分是一個最大的關切點而且他只是把相關的成本沒有並沒有那個如果把那些成本大量算進來恐怕他一付出大概就是相當龐大的都要一起"},{"start":11407.961,"end":11424.701,"text":"所以我覺得這一塊應該不是這一個那綠電的部分我導師也要再提一下我覺得2023年的時候台灣的再生能源總發電268億度這是一個很很不錯的一個成就這幾年來大家努力來推展那我也希望部長也希望"},{"start":11425.743,"end":11436.134,"text":"大家都要不斷地去那個綠電是一個趨勢也是一個方向其實大電力用戶一直希望我們那個再生能源再增加因為他們未來到2030年的時候這個需要的這個綠電增加的非常多"},{"start":11440.339,"end":11440.719,"text":"現在請洪森漢委員執行"},{"start":11478.464,"end":11500.196,"text":"請王部長委員好是部長我今天一早當然我也聽了各委員的質詢那我聽到大家有一個說法說尤其是國民黨的委員講到說這個在看守內閣期間這個不該漲電價"},{"start":11504.998,"end":11522.171,"text":"那我聽了這個說法我當然有一點困惑我就請教部長就你知道在2015當時馬政府大概2016一月然後馬政府進入cancel以後這個在那個上半年520之前馬政府有沒有調整電價有有其實有"},{"start":11524.713,"end":11544.348,"text":"其實有調整電價嘛對不對那當然那時候我記得他應該是調降了非常大的比例嘛所以那時候引起社會也很多的紛擾當時很多的專家學者也說你調降這麼大的比例其實是短多長空因為大家都知道你這一次調的降幅這麼大"},{"start":11545.209,"end":11561.341,"text":"接下來要陸陸續續再調上來的時候就會遭到社會很多的阻力所以這是為什麼當時有很多人會說那是短多長空可能不利於長期能源政策的原因在這個地方喔那部長我想先請教就你知道台灣的電價其實我們是偏低還偏高"},{"start":11562.808,"end":11583.487,"text":"國際上?在國際上是偏低的偏低嘛齁那這個大家認知差不多那其實低電價當然我們看到是有一些優勢包括也許可以吸引外資進入台灣穩定民生物價但負面影響也是有的包括可能比較難形成節約的概念造成浪費或低效率的使用也包括國營電力公司入不敷出全民買單"},{"start":11584.688,"end":11592.057,"text":"甚至是全民實質補貼用電大戶也包括這段時間在近鄰的情境裡面國際中都在講這個"},{"start":11594.17,"end":11622.767,"text":"水電的補貼會難以形成健康的綠色經濟市場這其實都是可能帶來的負面的效果但我們大概知道現在因為物業戰爭的原因看起來這一波我們確實有很大要這個調整電價尤其可能是調漲的壓力但我覺得現在因應這個降低衝擊我認為最實質的做法恐怕是政府應該大力的來協助用戶以最有效率跟聰明的方式用電部長你同不同意?"},{"start":11623.107,"end":11645.721,"text":"我完全同意 這個在國際能源總署其實也是提到節能其實是第一個要去優先考慮的項目部長那如果針對這部分我就想來跟部長請教我們看到其實政府花了很大的力氣來去投資所謂的智慧電表那智慧電表目前的進度如何"},{"start":11647.876,"end":11666.994,"text":"報告委員,今年行政院給台電的目標是300萬具,那目前已經達到280幾萬具,所以大概年中的時候就會完成300萬具的目標。但是總經理,這個智慧電表並不是裝了就會節電,對不對?是的。智慧電表要拿來用啊。"},{"start":11668.092,"end":11683.557,"text":"所以我要問現在我要問台電的事情是我們現在裝了這麼多年底可能可以就確實會做到300萬具那我們之後的應用計畫是什麼報告委員我們一直很希望就是全民都能夠有效率的用電"},{"start":11684.477,"end":11706.819,"text":"那所謂有效率的用電就是因應再生能源時代的來臨我們在正中午這個時候的太陽能非常多的狀況之下大家用電的器具就在那個時候來使用然後到了晚上就少用一點大概用這樣的概念但是這樣的概念我現在問的是說智慧電表裝上去以後你希望大家怎麼來應用這個智慧電表"},{"start":11707.239,"end":11736.217,"text":"你要應用它才會有節電的效果才會有效率的能源管理啊那我們後續裝上去以後的應用計畫是什麼我們已經開發了一些APP所以只要用戶已經裝成改成APP之後我們在電費單上面都會通知他你已經改成新的智慧電表了那我們台電有APP可以使用那歡迎你們來安裝這個APP我們現在假設裝了281萬具你知道現在我們使用APP的使用人數都還多少嗎"},{"start":11738.459,"end":11741.182,"text":"總經理我知道數字不是這樣我知道現在在使用APP的數字恐怕不到20萬戶"},{"start":11755.933,"end":11783.775,"text":"也就是我們有很多的住戶他裝了智慧電表可是他並沒有在使用甚至我有很多的朋友他家裡被裝了也許在他地下室換了台電去換了但他根本就不知道自己被換了所以我們有很多是換了裝了但他根本就不知道他還是用原本的能源使用習慣我得知的APP的使用的數字大概不到20萬"},{"start":11785.501,"end":11797.374,"text":"算下來其實目前如果用281萬當作分母的話恐怕不到10%的人真正在使用這個智慧電表跟相關的應用程式啊"},{"start":11799.593,"end":11819.118,"text":"總計你覺得這個數字你滿意嗎我當然不滿意我希望能夠做得更好那更好的原因就是說在誘因方面如何讓民眾更有感那其實我們知道價格訊號事實上在國外是非常好的一個總計所以我花了一些時間我也跟台電這邊來詢問那我們裝完智慧電板以後後續的應用有沒有應用計畫"},{"start":11820.638,"end":11833.981,"text":"台電有沒有提一個應用計畫或者是有沒有推廣計畫可是我聽到的都是只有我們會設計APP可是APP的使用率卻又這麼低不到10%這變成是我們有很多投資的智慧電表可能是亮在那邊的喔"},{"start":11836.563,"end":11855.579,"text":"目前我們已經期望跟第三方合作第三方也正在做這方面就是他們在裝的那個第二條通訊路徑跟家裡的家電可以結合那麼可以參加我們的訓練總經理我覺得我們其實應該要定一個假設APP是使用跟應用的關鍵的話到底我們希望APP的成長的速度跟進程要多少"},{"start":11855.959,"end":11856.239,"text":"接下來我要問齁"},{"start":11884.453,"end":11908.059,"text":"電價的調漲當然我們接下來會最在意的事情其實會對於這些中低收入戶或者是社會底層的影響其實在氣候法裡面其實有46條公正轉型的方案裡面只有說每個主管的機關目的世界主管機關應該針對主管的業務提出公正轉型行動方案來送公正轉型的主辦機關也就是國發會"},{"start":11910.319,"end":11923.694,"text":"照理來說,現在假設我們要漲電價,我們要提出因應衝擊的方案,這是不是就公正轉型的概念?是。那如果這是公正轉型的概念,我們有沒有提出公正轉型的行動方案?我說經濟部的部分。"},{"start":11927.558,"end":11938.721,"text":"報告委員這一個部分是這樣就是說我們這一次是局部的一個議題就是那個但是你提到就是說公正轉型的部分我們都有參加國發會的委員會議那這一個部分我們會一併來做調整但是我們在過去兩年的電價調整方案事實上都有把這樣子的一些價值考慮在裡面我想"},{"start":11950.124,"end":11974.051,"text":"這個部分社會上應該都知道我們都有考慮過這些相關的那個董事長我知道我們當然在調整的方案上有考慮但是現在大家會期待說我們可能需要更多的配套來去協助我們的底層或弱勢來去因應這個事情其實可能要有一個公正轉型的方案不一定是完整的經濟部全部的方案但針對這個部分有一個這樣的方案可以提出來至少對於我們的經濟弱勢或者是社會底層"},{"start":11974.631,"end":11994.88,"text":"他知道我是被政府給協助跟支持的部分除了在我們調整的方案以外我覺得這部分是經濟部應該優先考慮的事情可以嗎?了解 我知道委員提的就是包括協助做事、節電等等這些都是可以做的具體方案是好 這部分就請經濟部再帶回去我覺得現在在討論的時候我覺得要讓大家有信心是政府會支持的"},{"start":11995.4,"end":12013.425,"text":"當然你們在方案的架構下面有考慮可是也許很多弱勢的用戶你需要補助他、汰換他的用電的設備或者是協助他做用電的相關的診斷這些事情是我們可以做的我覺得大家會在這個時間點更期待這件事情謝謝接下來我們請蔡譽委員請做詢談"},{"start":12033.563,"end":12040.312,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是有請部長以及我們台電我們董事長就是次長我們請以上三位謝謝"},{"start":12043.22,"end":12061.344,"text":"好委員好部長那我今天我看了台電2023年事實上這個決算總支出是一兆元畢竟一兆啦9999.78億那燃料支出勒自發燃料的支出是4688億像民營電廠購電支出是1882億那中間燃料是1415億"},{"start":12072.031,"end":12098.233,"text":"所以大概發電的這一個燃料的支出就高達6103億那跟2021年前無二戰爭的燃料的支出是2924億那我想要請教部長就是說因為無二戰爭造成這一個燃料成本的一個提高那這件事情你們覺得會在"},{"start":12100.516,"end":12114.341,"text":"因為現在國際的燃料大概有下滑了所以我們這件我們的燃料成本這麼高的這個狀況大概還要持續多久才能把燃料成本壓到一個比較合理的水位"},{"start":12115.75,"end":12139.727,"text":"現在有慢慢下來但是因為二五戰爭還在持續然後還有以哈戰爭所以國際的這些智庫或者是專業機構的評估就是說它的下來的幅度不會很快那另外一個就是說只要有一點變動因素可能又會影響這個燃料成本那目前我們看到的國際的重要的機構的評估是這個樣子"},{"start":12141.547,"end":12162.478,"text":"好那所以我就要回到剛剛這個一兆元的這樣的一個支出的結構大概6100億是燃料的一個支出綠電是905億就是大概9%氣電大概就是指那個氣燃氣的嘛氣電共生的是255億那其他是2269億所謂的其他是指什麼"},{"start":12169.756,"end":12192.682,"text":"包括折救包括利息包括相關的網路電網等等的全部都算在這個裡面好那所以現在台電因為燃料成本提高嗎這樣的一個虧損這樣的虧損你們要支應利息錢嗎要啊要那一年利息在多少都要借錢所以現在台電一年負擔的利息已經超過300億了"},{"start":12194.434,"end":12219.588,"text":"所以這個利息錢也是算在剛剛講的其他這一欄對,其他的支出其他支出是所以可以看出來就是說至少在燃料還有利息錢這都是現在是看到很大的洞都是壓力對都是壓力啦是所以當然今天說這個漲電價當然是壓力點是來自於這一個燃料的成本台電不能再虧損"},{"start":12221.457,"end":12247.586,"text":"我們也知道說事實上從戰爭發生到現在全世界的物價上漲很高沒錯尤其是像歐洲的國家整個物價是飆漲那物價的飆漲來自於他們的電價上漲是來自於他們的電價上漲所以電價上漲還有其他的糧食的部分也是對包括玉米價格也上漲很多我以前有諮詢過"},{"start":12249.106,"end":12275.489,"text":"但是這樣的一個上漲我們可以看出台灣相對於其他國家我們的物價是平緩的我們大概我們的CPI上漲大概都是2點多趴跟我們比較近的大概就韓國韓國大概3點還是比我們高高的1趴多那如果以歐盟的國家來說哇那個股業可以弄都逼近10趴的非常可怕的漲所以台灣相對物價平緩"},{"start":12277.17,"end":12295.796,"text":"台電甚至中油有負擔了很大的國營事業我們有吸收很大的漲價包括說你如果說中油包括他們的鴨酥湯什麼都動漲嘛事實上都是把這個物價做這樣的一個壓那我們現在當然現在壓力過來了啦我們現在"},{"start":12300.437,"end":12324.042,"text":"這個虧損這麼多這這麼大的一個洞我覺得說除了說我們今天去討論我們未來可能要漲電價讓台灣的電價可以跟可以比較去一個合理的不要讓台電都這樣了結啦不對我覺得還有幾個觀念部長你也應該要督促台電甚至我們台電公司內部也應該要去檢討第一個就是說我們台電負擔的"},{"start":12326.778,"end":12350.805,"text":"議務類事實上也不只是剛剛說平緩護駕喔像我剛才就我之前就有在講台電我們事實上去買了很多很多的電但是我們賣給民間的時候就綠電啦綠電賣給民間的時候我們為了要降低排排碳系數所以台電這台電是賣起來還是沒給台的喔是把它混在一起變成灰電賣出去嘛"},{"start":12351.984,"end":12366.665,"text":"所以這個對台電來說為了降低排碳係數這一個環節我們台電又去承擔了很大的社會義務但是這個社會義務哩如果你對於很多的中小型企業 他們沒有碳排的壓力啊"},{"start":12368.537,"end":12388.855,"text":"當然對於大廠油阿對中小型企業它沒有蛋白壓力阿那為什麼這一塊要由台電來吸收這個是第一個我覺得不合理的那第二個勒我覺得從這個事件上來說我覺得台電應該要面對自己有這麼多叫做民股為什麼台電是國營事業要有民股阿"},{"start":12394.196,"end":12401.059,"text":"因為我們有民股這件事情齁我剛剛了解一下像中油就沒有民股阿"},{"start":12402.844,"end":12417.71,"text":"台電有,這件事情會影響到什麼?影響到了事實上我們像我們去年我們政府的稅收有超徵,超徵了3000多億,這個3000多億來自台灣去賺錢,包括很多科技產業賺錢,他們賺錢本身也來自於台灣因為電價比較低"},{"start":12426.013,"end":12451.318,"text":"所以他們的身份有比較多所以他們有賺錢當然就多繳的稅台灣有這樣的一個稅收事實上我主張啦像去年的超徵稅收目前還沒有決定怎麼用就應該把這些錢也適度的拿來彌補台電跟中油的虧損你如果這裡三千萬元可以補進來哇大補完欸"},{"start":12454.765,"end":12455.826,"text":"是可以很大的補助"},{"start":12485.027,"end":12495.944,"text":"所以我們會建議用補貼的不要用增資的不要用增資的部分就會稀釋那個原來的股權我覺得部長我們考慮啦就是做價錢把他們買回來啦"},{"start":12498.224,"end":12526.089,"text":"那個是另外一個議題是台電的部分我感覺說很多因為台電國營事業嘛他應該是要跟政府的卡簿可以一體嘛就政府我們現在不管是補貼還是增資事實上就是政府有這些稅捐這些錢就可以來彌補台電的虧損很合理大家也都接受但是這一個點卻因為我剛講的這幾個理由事實上無法被執行我覺得很可惜"},{"start":12527.343,"end":12550.14,"text":"我們也知道台電負擔這麼大的國家的為了平緩負價然後讓大家生活這樣好過有負擔這麼大的責任事實上在於一些點的時候我是覺得說適度的適度的要把台電的責任不用全部每天都去收啦像我剛才說的廢電的牌單係數這一個點這台電不用啦不一定一定要台電要負擔牌單係數吧"},{"start":12557.008,"end":12585.434,"text":"排碳係數是國家的責任啦齁那另外就是說確實現在也很多我們准購進來的綠電也慢慢他跟台電分手了直接賣給民間現在他們都直接賣給那個民間企業了而且賣給民間企業的都比台電的准收電價4點多塊還要高欸還要高啊所以事實上這個是有誘因的啊那既然看到了這個的誘因我覺得對台電而言就是一個他們壓力點的釋放"},{"start":12585.954,"end":12590.599,"text":"因為我就不用去控制我的排碳係數嘛 啊你說這個國家好像有點責任 沒錯台電還是要控制啦 這個還是 我們還是被環境部管制 還是要 但是就是說能夠賣給民間的 是我賣給民間還是要盡量去賣"},{"start":12610.218,"end":12614.423,"text":"現在的綠電觀念跟以前不一樣了以前的綠電好像台電賣10顆然後買的綠電好像是壓力很大現在沒有餒現在台電買綠電電到賣乎餒"},{"start":12624.471,"end":12643.665,"text":"買綠電給綠電公司一直去找民營事業他們還可以賣更高的價錢台電就只是卡在排炭係數那這個排炭係數我覺得適度的排炭係數也沒有說每一家企業他都會因為排炭係數他會去影響企業經營未必啦只有大型在做外銷國際企業他們才會有這樣的壓力"},{"start":12647.149,"end":12668.801,"text":"所以適度的我們可以這樣去思考好不好是是是好那我是覺得說這很辛苦啦但是我還是像剛剛深翰委員說的如果漲了電價整體對社會一些物價的一些影響評估我覺得這個要好好的思考然後要做一個比較詳細的一個報告好不好是是好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":12675.094,"end":12675.374,"text":"那我們請部長我們請部長"},{"start":12706.589,"end":12723.757,"text":"部長好,謝謝部長我們剛才都提到電的問題那我現在要針對我們水的問題來跟您請教我們的山區的民眾的自來水的沿管工程或者是簡易自來水工程第一案就是在我們番鹿鄉大湖村1-120"},{"start":12725.518,"end":12745.928,"text":"沒有自來水的這個案件這總共是153戶那這個概估經費是1億餘元那第二案是我們梅山鄉龍眼村1-30那總共63戶這是要做簡易自來水的那第三案是主題龍山村90的部分總共34戶那總共的工程費大概是2000萬元"},{"start":12747.429,"end":12768.103,"text":"第4案是我們竹崎鄉文豐村7-90的自來水沿管工程那有需求93戶那工程費用都是1900萬第5案是中埔鄉三層村那這個部分的需求有21戶這5案的需求總共是364戶那今天我們是希望"},{"start":12768.863,"end":12795.107,"text":"透過這個場合向部長來去傳達說我們有這些需求希望經濟部能夠全力去協助讓我們的山區的民眾能夠得到自來水那我想這個對於我們山區民眾的這些權益還有這些平權這是非常重要的那很多在都會區的民眾可能還沒有辦法想像說還有許多人沒有辦法想用到自來水的這個基礎的人權我希望說部長能夠來全力協助這個部分可不可以"},{"start":12795.789,"end":12821.039,"text":"是 是 那委員具體提到了這個部分 那水利署都有這個在裡面 那我們會來增加這個協助的力道謝謝 謝謝 那也麻煩部長能夠緊盯 儘速的把它完成 因為這是一個基本的權益 我們還是希望能夠儘速的完成它那第二部分就跟電的部分有關 那是在我們嘉義縣中埔的河目地區的高壓電塔的這些地下化"},{"start":12822.013,"end":12836.5,"text":"我們中埔鄉現在是屬於這個河目地區是屬於都市計劃區那附近有未來中埔公館的工業區還在開發那人口未來會很聚集這地的民眾我們都很希望說這些老舊的高壓電腦完全地下化"},{"start":12837.02,"end":12856.873,"text":"那完全地價化第一個是對市種當然是會有幫助那第二個部分是減少地震颱風的倒塌的風險那我想過去我們也一直談到這樣子的經費啦那整個經費可能超過10億元對於地方來講基本上要編列二分之一政府要至少5億元我聽說是已經不只是10億好像經過"},{"start":12857.934,"end":12885.756,"text":"我昨天詢答地方的縣議員他們是答到說可能會到15億所以到目前為止還是停留在我們在反映地方的聲音的階段我們是希望有更新的進度在這個地方那部長其實最大的問題當然就是配合款那你也知道說非六都的這些縣市他的這個預算有限他的經費有限不知道經濟部是否可以同意先採取用專案辦理的方式來協助解決這個問題"},{"start":12887.487,"end":12909.759,"text":"向委員報告,那這個案子陳明文前委員在去年的11月有召開協調會在那個會上有做成決議就是在12月底台電要把相關的這個規劃報告要送出來那這個報告我們也在12月29號送給縣政府、嘉義縣政府了那嘉義政府收到之後那他們會做研議,研議說這個方案"},{"start":12911.32,"end":12916.302,"text":"您剛才提到的那個現在經費已經因為最近這段時間的物價的通膨等等已經漲到14億了14億快要到15億了是現在接近15億才如您所說的"},{"start":12929.707,"end":12929.727,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":12960.128,"end":12961.69,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請王部長跟台電董事長"},{"start":12981.606,"end":13006.091,"text":"部長,我們台電目前虧損得非常嚴重,包含2023年單年虧損1985億,累積虧損達到3820億元,中間我們也還沒有去認列合適的2858億的興建費用,它等同於是一種負債。那台電如果是民間公司早就破產了,我想要問一下部長,我們台電現在是不是面臨到非常嚴峻的財務問題?"},{"start":13008.832,"end":13016.057,"text":"對因為現在台電有還有很多的那個建設工程所以在金流上面因為這樣的虧損呢在像銀行貸款的部分確實是比較困難所以一個公司如果他是遇到財務問題的話那我問一下部長你會不會認為說我們在所有的花費上面都應該要審慎不管他是大錢是小錢"},{"start":13029.566,"end":13044.102,"text":"應該要運用在CP值最高的地方運用在合理的地方讓這些錢能夠發揮效用也才能夠跟我們的國人交代這個部長你同意嗎?是是所以這個是讓我覺得很懷疑的地方就是說我看我們的台電很有錢啊"},{"start":13045.163,"end":13048.585,"text":"因為台電既然財務狀況這麼差可是我們過去看到了台電在針對所謂的廣告採購的部分非常的鬆散我們可以看到112年從107年、108年、109年、110年、112年台電都同樣跟這家叫做放鹽科技傳媒股先有限公司的去做相關的採購每年都給人家50萬"},{"start":13074.62,"end":13088.432,"text":"五十萬雖然不是非常大的金額但是我們要問的是台電既然財政狀況這麼的差財務狀況這麼差是不是要用在刀口上我想有些內容部長或許不知道像我來跟您做一個簡報我們來看一下具體而言我們這個錢是怎麼花的結案報告是怎麼寫的我們先來看2018年的"},{"start":13095.217,"end":13098.738,"text":"2018年我們的結案報告提供的就是一個Banner然後呢我們結案報告這50萬喔50萬只刊在網站上面10天然後呢編輯式廣告兩則每個刊期45天等於說只有4個廣告而已然後走期10到45天這要發我們50萬這在2018年等一下會給你們時間回應2019年的時候一模一樣"},{"start":13122.285,"end":13139.588,"text":"今天每年的狀況一模一樣兩則廣告45天兩則廣告10天隨便給你做一個微宣放上去只要50萬而2020年往後看三篇廣邊新聞就這樣三篇廣邊新聞再花50萬再往下看"},{"start":13140.789,"end":13158.813,"text":"2021��2021年一篇廣告五篇廣編十天的一期而已一檔的Banner 50萬再看下一年2023年終於今年有提供到的是一些相關的KPI但是一樣只走了20天那這些點閱率來講我都幫你們換算好了如果換算出來的話你會發現說其實它的"},{"start":13165.375,"end":13192.635,"text":"112年1月19日到2月7日點閱數只有567112年6月7日到6月21日點閱數只有423等於說是呢你的廣告投放預算非常的差為什麼會有這樣子的情況難道小錢就不是錢嗎難道你們投放廣告的時候不需要考慮他的CP值嗎這樣子的50萬廣告任何一家的大媒體都是比他還要便宜的宣傳效果都還是更好的"},{"start":13193.195,"end":13197.158,"text":"為什麼過去我們會每年向這家公司做相關的媒體採購?你可以下廣告但是你不覺得這樣子的一個CP值太低了嗎?各項的媒體其他家有像這樣子這麼貴CP值這麼低嗎?我直接問您您覺得這樣每年的成效對台電的宣傳效用幫助是高還是低?"},{"start":13222.174,"end":13233.244,"text":"因為我們要做到每一個面向...你沒有回答到我的問題我只問你這樣子的一個專案每年花的50萬到底它對台電的宣傳的幫助是大還是小嗎?"},{"start":13235.805,"end":13243.408,"text":"所以你覺得很棒今年還要繼續執行明年還要繼續執行所以你沒有我今天就把成效都拿出來給你看了嘛從2018到2023嘛我就問如果你覺得下這樣的廣告對台電的宣傳推廣很有幫助那你今年要繼續下啊"},{"start":13254.093,"end":13272.314,"text":"如果你認為推廣沒有幫助、CP值太低的話那你今年不下你就只要回答我這個問題就好你們認為過去從107年到112年針對這家公司去下廣告的成果你覺得合理不合理?你覺得錢有沒有花在包口上?你覺得宣傳的效果是好還是不好?"},{"start":13273.415,"end":13291.842,"text":"我想知道你的看法。我想知道的是政府部門對於下降幅廣告的看法。你覺得宣傳的效果是好還是不好?你不用管我覺得好不好,我只想聽你的答案。"},{"start":13293.763,"end":13298.965,"text":"還有什麼?還有跟媒體人的關係嗎?這點要考慮進來嗎?好,那如果你覺得很棒請你今年繼續下但如果你自己都覺得有點心虛了請你未來在媒體採購上面要注重媒體過去的CP值的表現到底對於台電的宣傳推廣有沒有幫助否則我們會覺得你今天要漲我們的電價"},{"start":13319.755,"end":13345.76,"text":"但是你過去花錢的時候是花得不眨眼隨便亂花CP值很差也花那這次你今天要漲大家電價的時候人民就沒有辦法接受請回去好好檢討謝謝謝謝委員呃徐委員謝謝好接下來我們請賴世保委員賴世保、賴世華委員不在現場我們請王世堅委員請詢答"},{"start":13350.735,"end":13364.379,"text":"經理!不是笑,你要敬禮謝謝主席主席,我請部長我們再請王部長好,問好"},{"start":13373.953,"end":13385.314,"text":"部長其實我現在要問你的問題我剛才啊在財委會問過了那因為他們說這個上位政策是由經濟部"},{"start":13386.997,"end":13389.378,"text":"我又提到了這個很可能就演變成21世紀科技版的木馬塗層劑啦"},{"start":13407.503,"end":13432.045,"text":"就是經濟部這70年來尚未政策擬定的要保護裕隆那這個裕隆汽車我想全民多數都知道大家有一個共識我們保護了裕隆但裕隆其實不怎麼漲進也就是說我們保護了這個阿斗70年"},{"start":13433.7,"end":13446.95,"text":"不曉得還要保護這個阿斗還要保護多久啦那現在很傷腦筋的是怎麼樣呢伊隆藉著我們國家的保護那區隔了所有的進口車"},{"start":13448.578,"end":13468.003,"text":"因為這些關稅、貨物稅它的免徵的這個部分保障來裕隆那裕隆如果說很長進他如果把車子做得很好讓我們可以外銷結果不是他一部也外銷不出去大概10年前吧那時候就想說讓他去進軍中國好了好啦進軍中國結果呢"},{"start":13474.225,"end":13499.725,"text":"到3年前他銷售率零煞雨而歸部長我們要他去反攻大陸他沒辦法現在反而被中共利用來木馬屠城天啊他利用我們對他的保護比方說這兩年來他引進了中共早就買去的MZ"},{"start":13502.943,"end":13523.363,"text":"這個車種我相信你們應該很清楚MT這個車種一進來來因為歐洲的車型大家還不曉得因為低價的關係國產車嘛稅金的優惠低價的關係要賣的大好上百億那部長這很傷腦筋的喔這要我們全民的血汗錢去保護他保護了誰"},{"start":13524.793,"end":13554.23,"text":"掩護了誰?掩護了中共的車子進到台灣不打緊下一個階段現在MD這個是油車下一個階段那就是電動車啦大家都曉得現在全世界最火紅的電動車那就是中國像他們比亞迪他們好多品牌啦那他們價格也低那麼他們打算藉由育農這個模式"},{"start":13555.762,"end":13569.644,"text":"那麼以零組件的方式進來我們台灣在台灣組裝,哎呀它變成國產車了天啊這會造成我們國家另類的國安危機因為電動車徒資的收集"},{"start":13570.984,"end":13592.735,"text":"他盡頭收集的這個圖資這就是為什麼我們國家這幾年來一直禁止採購中共的無人機的原因結果發生無人機進啊現在他用電動車來來收集你的圖資怎麼辦還有我們對自由世界這些友邦們他們"},{"start":13594.636,"end":13610.181,"text":"電動車也發展得很好而且他們品質很好啊我們對人家如何交代因為我們用關稅或誤稅阻隔了他們他們變成高價車輛怎麼來跟這一些在台灣組裝但是中國零件中國出口的車子"},{"start":13611.681,"end":13624.681,"text":"在台灣大行其道收刮我們台灣的車市資源所以我認為部長這個部分齁今天時間有限我希望你帶回去好好的來檢討跟"},{"start":13628.291,"end":13634.355,"text":"各部會檢討這個問題這是國安問題不是嗎我簡單說明一下齁那整車的部分的進口關稅台灣確實是還在齁但是整車在台灣組裝的部分其實現在主要不是裕隆現在主要整車組裝是包括TOYOTA包括福特他們在台灣組裝那重點是在這個組裝的下面齁TOYOTA、福特沒有去引進中共的車種"},{"start":13655.967,"end":13659.248,"text":"但是這些車在台灣組裝假設今天的這個關稅降下來的話那麼這樣的一個組裝包括零組件的生產會受到很大的衝擊所以部長你的意思就是說你就不用做了不是啊那這個部分這個部分我們也因應你中共那邊傾銷而來的化整為零在台灣組裝的車"},{"start":13679.072,"end":13680.593,"text":"這些我們要設限不是嗎?上百億人你認為不是問題?"},{"start":13702.904,"end":13712.292,"text":"目前還沒有這樣的一個困擾那因為業界他自己更在乎所以如果有這樣的一個困擾他自己怎麼會在乎呢他隨便只進一款就賣一萬多輛就上百億他怎麼會沒差現在如果整車進口的他可能是從比如說從泰國生產整車進口到泰國內我跟你說的不是整車中共化整為零把他們的汽車組件"},{"start":13730.567,"end":13730.727,"text":"剛委員報告齁"},{"start":13746.417,"end":13746.657,"text":"王世堅委員 敬禮"},{"start":13777.11,"end":13777.83,"text":"王美花王部長台電楊董事長"},{"start":13795.479,"end":13798.86,"text":"今天我們的報告是針對電價調整對產業和民生衝擊的一個配套措施"},{"start":13813.166,"end":13828.771,"text":"其實我們電價問題要談得非常多但是我們很擔心的因為電價調升對於物價推升的威力實在是太大所以包含國發會主委昨天也承認就是如果電價調升10%的話那麼我們CPI可能調升因此而漲價0.3%或0.4%但我都覺得這只是模型"},{"start":13837.153,"end":13857.767,"text":"因為這事實上對於一般的服務業、小吃店、餐飲業等等之類它的物價推升的威力會更大可是我覺得我們現在整個的內閣今天進入了一個對物價麻木不仁我們今天好像只看到電價"},{"start":13859.4,"end":13888.026,"text":"部長你知道嗎?剛才我在財委會針對什麼呢?因為我們這幾年針對國際的一些原物料價格的上漲擔心衝擊物價所以我們有對一個所謂的關鍵原物料的關稅跟貨物稅的調降部長應該知道是 對不對?是那麼這個到什麼時候結束知道嗎?我們都是3個月左右會檢討一次好那最近是什麼時候會結束?"},{"start":13889.606,"end":13900.394,"text":"你們有很多跟你相關的喔還有相關的油氣類喔他們都會在結束之前我們跨部會就會討論這個會有院的層級來做跨部會討論整個螺絲吼掉光光對於物價衝擊掉光光我剛才講的關鍵原物料價格"},{"start":13914.924,"end":13933.725,"text":"只有在國發會跟財政部提到明明在3月31日這個月底大家渾然不覺反正就是照抄、複製貼上、複製貼少反正到3月31日到目前為止都沒有開會這是其一更可惡的是什麼呢"},{"start":13935.847,"end":13960.717,"text":"剛才會去那個我們未還委員會我問薛部長我說你知道我們CPI大家都知道我們這一年要漲很多第一類大概大家都知道食物類我說第二類你知道嗎他說不曉得欸沒有研究欸第二類是什麼是醫藥保健類醫藥保健類你看這個跟大家息息相關結果這兩天"},{"start":13963.083,"end":13982.114,"text":"他好死不死去宣布這個掛號費上限取消我說你有跟院長報告 沒有我說你有沒有跟管物價的副院長報告 沒有我說你們都這麼輕忽電價對物價上漲的這個推升的可能造成通貨膨脹"},{"start":13983.935,"end":14004.273,"text":"你們都不怕嗎?整個行政院現在大家是怎麼樣呢?每個人在數饅頭等著過日子嗎?到了520可能我就拜拜 Sayonara那還是說有些想辦法再去找什麼位置那我請問你啊為什麼關鍵原物料黃曉玉"},{"start":14005.194,"end":14005.754,"text":"每次漂浮以百分之三為上限"},{"start":14034.656,"end":14061.678,"text":"以前就告訴我們這次為什麼要到10%呢?所以以前的相關的規定是售高嗎?不是委員我也知道那現在這樣惡霧戰爭之後不是只有台灣全世界都有這個燃料大漲的問題你們又把惡霧戰爭拿出來囉這個是事實啊部長當時大家跟你講我們能源政策不能全部都靠天然氣啊因為天然氣佔的比例50%嘛"},{"start":14063.579,"end":14076.326,"text":"你說我們可以買到天然的能源我們可以買到便宜的天然氣可以買到便宜的能源便宜在哪裡若便宜現在怎麼還會這樣子呢如果當時是3%上限就是告訴你我們呢要給我們的業者也好或者給我們消費者一個緩衝空間現在沒有緩衝啊沖天炮"},{"start":14093.018,"end":14111.504,"text":"一下就要調10%我告訴你喔到了今年夏天大家會很有感從去年開始去年沒有調民生用電好多人就跟我反映說夏天的電價好貴喔所以你們是選後之後都無所謂了對不對選前假裝選後呢螺絲掉滿地怎麼會這樣子所以我在這邊鄭重要求"},{"start":14122.474,"end":14129.483,"text":"電價是經濟部的問題但是因為它推升是整個相關的產業跟民生消費物價你趕快回去敲醒鄭文燦敲醒陳建仁你們要趕快開跨部會會議"},{"start":14139.925,"end":14154.131,"text":"電價上漲一旦物價被勾起來甚至有哄抬的時候你要壓制都沒有辦法壓制所以我就問薛瑞媛說你們到底要逼死誰啊連這個連掛號被你的上限到取消早不取消晚不取消這個時候取消你是覺得怎麼樣你們很好過人民很不好過不是這樣好不好"},{"start":14159.654,"end":14170.511,"text":"所以我在這邊我覺得我們今天的報告非常好就是告訴你對產業、對民生衝擊是什麼立法院都這麼在乎行政院不要再掉以輕心謝謝"},{"start":14181.531,"end":14182.392,"text":"馬文君議員、鍾嘉斌議員黃伯昌議員"},{"start":14212.15,"end":14230.34,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩有請那個經濟部的部長跟台電的代理董事長那總經理也可以上來因為有些業務如果董事長不知道總經理可以代打沒有關係好 我也好 是"},{"start":14232.348,"end":14254.062,"text":"三位好時間的關係不一一問候2012年馬政府油電雙漲導致民怨沸騰那個時候我們在檢討電價調整的必要性的時候民主進步黨有一個立法委員叫林佳龍我覺得他那時候質詢的很有道理說"},{"start":14257.084,"end":14276.169,"text":"電價要漲,結果台電還在養肥貓我家榮學長用的字比較重他用堅守制道他那時候批評台電的總經理圖正義退休以後轉任台灣大電力研究試驗中心的董事長他認為這個是台電在養肥貓"},{"start":14279.4,"end":14305.856,"text":"那時候針對這樣子的批評經濟委員會也通過了一個腐敗的決議以後這種退休轉任的事情必須要受到限制那我現在的問題就來了當初台電的總經理退休轉任台灣大電力研究事業中心董事長民進黨那時候在野是強烈批判說這個是台電養肥貓"},{"start":14308.16,"end":14335.197,"text":"現在台電的副總經理退休以後一樣到台灣大電力研究事業中心當董事長算不算是養肥貓他是用他的專業轉任到這邊來所以那個時候是養肥貓現在不是養肥貓標準不一樣就對了這個是委員個別的質詢那對我們來說我們很慎重來看待這個職位我只有一個簡單的要求"},{"start":14336.56,"end":14345.317,"text":"當初怎麼要求人家的怎麼批判人家的現在就不要幹一樣的事情啊別人是養肥貓民進黨幹就不是養肥貓"},{"start":14347.028,"end":14366.729,"text":"第二個問題當初經濟委員會裡面的附帶決議附帶決議的內容說退休了以後不可以到民營事業去做嘛但那個時候沒有規範到經濟部或者是台電所實質控制的財團法人部長認為這個規範有沒有修正的必要"},{"start":14368.339,"end":14371.061,"text":"你砍了以後月薪不是才將近10萬嗎?"},{"start":14391.954,"end":14400.74,"text":"我剛請教那個部長的問題或者是總經理要回答也可以那個時候只有規定說退休了以後轉任是你們下面的子公司的受到限制嘛你們控制的財團法人沒有嗎這個規範有沒有檢討的必要"},{"start":14421.272,"end":14442.287,"text":"當然現在去這些財團法人都是台電因為他是台電投資的嘛所以都是台電的同仁或者是出去的問題很簡單啦一個是公司的形式啦一個是財團法人的形式啦但是從旋轉能條款的意思來講不應該因為這兩個就有區別對待了所以我的問題很具體我拜託台電回去再去思考"},{"start":14443.027,"end":14471.1,"text":"如果針對質公司有這樣的限制針對財團法人需不需要有相同或類似的限制我的要求只有這個樣子時間的關係我邁入第二個主題剛剛也有委員質詢說台電在通過一些廣告標案的時候用限制型的標案去給特定的網媒特定的網媒就預告的放眼"},{"start":14472.281,"end":14483.941,"text":"台電剛剛總經理回答嘛說你們有整體的評估嘛那整體的評估完了以後你剛剛可能時間不夠剛剛那個委員沒有給你具體的回答來你評估完了以後覺得成效率"},{"start":14487.816,"end":14502.231,"text":"現在委員報告齁我們希望的是各個面向的不是嘛!你錢花下去了這個石頭丟到水裡面去了有沒有效果台電花錢總是要有評估嘛"},{"start":14503.496,"end":14518.974,"text":"我這樣說應該沒有錯吧?是那所以我剛問你因為我剛在下面聽你有聽到你評估的結果是什麼所以我現在請教你給你時間回答啊評估的結果怎麼樣因為成效卓著有達到預期的結果所以不斷的給不斷的給繼續給是這樣嗎?"},{"start":14521.917,"end":14548.293,"text":"我們並沒有每一年都給放鹽委員看到這個數字那沒有關係嘛你18年給完了以後你不是19年給嗎你19年給完了以後你20年又給嘛20年給完了以後你21年又給嘛那我的問題很簡單嘛我說你連續幾年每年這樣給有說錯嗎我給你時間欸給你時間解釋欸你的成效是怎麼評估的欸說出來給台灣社會大眾聽一聽啊"},{"start":14550.266,"end":14557.249,"text":"你有關係啊!我現在問的是你怎麼評估的嘛還是反正我就是有這麼多錢錢我就是要花我錢就是掌握在手上我愛給誰就給誰成效都不用評估是這樣嗎?"},{"start":14575.714,"end":14595.726,"text":"沒有 我們都會評估好 評估的結果是什麼解釋給大家聽嘛因為我看不出來啊那主要是因為剛剛提過了我的同樣的一個人他事實上接觸的面向很廣有可能在媒體上接觸不要講空的嘛 剛剛你說有評估嘛我給你講評估的結果請告訴大家我完全沒講話我開放式的給你回答評估的結果是什麼跟大家講啊"},{"start":14603.886,"end":14613.449,"text":"因為這個牽涉到幾十家將近100家的這個媒體 這數字我可能還沒有 一時記不起來沒有啊 我全部都去調了啊 你們剛連續給的啊 沒有成效報告啊 空白啊 在哪裡 我負責任的去調資料回來看欸"},{"start":14624.906,"end":14637.592,"text":"好不容易看到有成效報告的哇我看了大驚失色啊成效非常好啊點閱567次點閱423次錢這樣花的這個是在這個單獨個案我們看到的對這個就是我的問題了嘛這個單獨的個案效果這麼差沒有成效報告每年前還繼續給到底是為了什麼"},{"start":14651.687,"end":14654.428,"text":"幫民進黨養車役嗎?這就是我的問題啊!我的問題很簡單嘛!你的錢!你的錢!都是納稅人的錢!台電需要幫忙!大家需要用電!"},{"start":14680.54,"end":14681.041,"text":"我們台電來檢討一下 是"},{"start":14703.098,"end":14723.751,"text":"接下來我們請林德福委員、林德福、林德福委員不在現場我們請徐欣盈委員、徐欣盈、徐欣盈、徐欣盈委員不在現場我們請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在現場我們請蘇巧慧、蘇巧慧、蘇巧慧委員不在現場我們請莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄委員不在現場"},{"start":14724.651,"end":14731.354,"text":"我們請劉許廷委員不在現場我們請王美惠委員不在現場我們請林俊憲委員不在現場我們請羅志強委員請做詢談主席有請部長我們再請部長"},{"start":14761.32,"end":14781.277,"text":"緊張上漲的電價對於一般人民不論是有固定收入或平日收入不足的人民都是很大的負擔那這句話你認同嗎對電價的部分我們會去考慮相關過往幾次的調整也都會考慮相關的民生跟物價的問題"},{"start":14782.854,"end":14796.74,"text":"這個政府在感受人民的痛苦跟人民的感覺差很遠我覺得很多的漲價要從長計要這麼短時間這麼巨大的漲幅對一般人民來講真的是很大的負擔請問你認同這句話嗎我們會考慮相關的影響這個都會當審議委員會來做參考那你知道這句話誰說的嗎"},{"start":14806.3,"end":14832.172,"text":"是蔡英文總統說的他在2012年4月20日評價馬英九總統的油電雙漲千萬不能漲電價勸他結果他還是蠻幹民進黨一直呼籲馬政府不要漲電價結果他還是蠻幹這句話誰說的這句話是民進黨的前主席蘇貞昌也是前院長蘇貞昌講的"},{"start":14833.871,"end":14859.937,"text":"我想請教部長4月份漲電價是屬實的嗎?有這個方向了嗎?我們確實有規劃是平均漲幅是多少?媒體報導台電說大概10個百分點是對的嗎?目前都還在討論當中那你覺得大概要漲多少?你們的原案是要漲多少?原案我們優先來爭取政府的補貼那補貼之外希望今年台電能夠不要再繼續虧損補貼之外你會漲多少?"},{"start":14861.657,"end":14879.424,"text":"那這個要看補貼的你們是主管機關你臺電跟經濟部總有個想法吧不然你叫大家怎麼去看這個電價審議會臺電他會提出一些相關的幾個方案然後審議會去討論我想請問齁蔡英文總統說過10年不會大漲電價對不對這個有前提那委員二屋戰爭也是沒有人想過的我想請教您他講過這句話10%算不算大漲"},{"start":14893.953,"end":14903.641,"text":"10% 10個百分點算不算大漲這個你要看時空背景還有這個相關的成本的情形那2018年4月漲了3個百分點算不算大漲2018年3%之內其實是授權台電可以去2022年7月漲8.4個百分點算不算大漲"},{"start":14918.306,"end":14943.787,"text":"這個都是在算相關的成本跟...2023年4月齁,漲11個百分點算不算大漲這個是我們的這個電價的成本在反映的問題8年下來不算這一次,漲了22.4百分點請問算不算大漲所以我剛才有跟委員講啊你這個惡霧戰爭的情況是沒有人會...前面都沒有惡霧戰爭喔"},{"start":14945.681,"end":14949.403,"text":"我算過了馬政府有漲有漲八年大概漲了20個百分點你如果不算這一次已經漲了22個百分點"},{"start":14968.695,"end":14981.452,"text":"那如果嘛政府當時是蘇貞昌口中的霸道蔡英文口中的與人民感覺差很遠那我想我不知道現在算不算霸道算不算跟人民感覺差很遠那電價一漲所有東西都會漲嘛 對不對"},{"start":14985.224,"end":15009.821,"text":"所以我們一直都非常謹慎在處理那我問你齁因為我在質詢陳建仁院長的時候問過NCC的人士我說NCC人士是重大的一個人事案齁問他會不會跟賴清德總統當選人商量他說會那我想請問你電價算不算重大的一個事件電價算是重大事件那你會不會跟新政府尊重新政府跟賴清德當選人溝通"},{"start":15011.396,"end":15039.91,"text":"這個我們政府之間有相關的這個部分那因為他本來也是我們的副總統那我想問賴清德總統當選人是同意還是不同意目前都是蔡總統在執政我說你跟他溝通他的意見是親向是同意還是不同意這個部分在內部的討論我想這個總統在賦權我講的是賴總統當選因為我們陳院長講說中大政策要跟他商量啊你有沒有跟他商量"},{"start":15040.953,"end":15066.388,"text":"你剛才有商量啊但是商量總有一個傾向嘛他是贊成還是不贊成大的原則就是說目前的台電的狀況我在請教你你也對電價的歷史很了解嘛這個2008年那時候馬總統有點雙漲嘛可是電價的調漲累積不是他上任才開始嘛是在前任的總統開始可是馬總統什麼時候調漲?看守政府那時候有沒有調漲?"},{"start":15069.603,"end":15089.848,"text":"我講的是2008那一次2016那個都是前期啊那我要現在講就是說這些電價的調漲我覺得你們還是要跟賴清德總統當選人講清楚他是希望你們先幫他拆掉炸彈呢還是他就是非常認同你們現在4月來調漲電價"},{"start":15091.388,"end":15119.07,"text":"你等一個月讓新政府來漲電價讓他來去面對這個民意的檢驗不是更符合看守政府的職份嗎我們政府間之間都會有內部的討論以上謝謝你好謝謝接下來我們請林柱英委員林柱英林柱英委員不在現場"},{"start":15120.475,"end":15146.141,"text":"我們請陳培宇委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員不在現場我們請林楚昀委員林楚昀委員林楚昀委員不在現場我們請李柏毅委員李柏毅委員李柏毅委員不在現場我們請洪孟凱委員請做詢答主席謝謝麻煩請王美花部長我們請王部長"},{"start":15151.752,"end":15173.978,"text":"好,委員好部長,我在就較剛羅志強委員的問題喔您剛剛講是說跟蔡英文總統跟賴清德總統當選這邊有討論過電價調漲等等的那你剛剛到最後突然間漏口講說這都是總統這邊反而會做一個全面的評估我的意思是說現在是蔡總統在執政是蔡總統的任內那所以說電價調漲蔡總統這邊會批准是不是?"},{"start":15177.819,"end":15179.761,"text":"那你這樣子以前都把推脫說電價調漲是電價審議委員會綜合評估判斷考量專業結果現在原來不是啊"},{"start":15196.477,"end":15201.321,"text":"原來真相就是說這是長官要調就調,長官不調就不調啊因為你剛剛已經露口啦大的方向沒有錯但是我現在說的就是每一次都推給說哇3月的時候電價審議委員會委員會開會討論專業評估判斷我們沒有辦法去那個過問9月的時候電價審議委員會動漲的時候就是專業考量現在不動漲要漲的也是專業考量不是嘛"},{"start":15226.201,"end":15231.219,"text":"你剛剛突然講的原來露口了520前要下台前大家誠實了"},{"start":15233.106,"end":15241.111,"text":"就是可以直接講實話了就是長官嘛所以去年為什麼連級長連級長我們動長是因為選舉要到了現在酸計酸料啊選票沒壓力了趕快趁現在補回來各位報告因為我報告也有講我們優先要爭取政府補貼我跟政府補貼我當然要跟長官報告說這個狀況台電的情形那這個當然要跟長官報告所以這不是電價審議委員會他可以獨立專業來評估判斷嗎"},{"start":15259.921,"end":15267.583,"text":"還是有很多的執政黨的壓力或說執政黨的一個push嗎?如果說今天有補助比較多就可以減少比較少漲嗎?是不是?那當然啦所以我們優先還是希望來增加政府的補貼部長,感謝你講實話啦我們一定要長官支持"},{"start":15277.126,"end":15303.248,"text":"在520前這個新舊內閣交替的時候本席越來越希望是說可以多講一些實話讓國人更看得清楚來再來請教今天我們的這一個報告叫做條漲對於產業民生衝擊的研擬配套措施那看起來2024年今年電價條漲應該是漲定了嘛"},{"start":15306.537,"end":15309.159,"text":"就目前的狀況補貼電價的調漲才能夠讓台電的財務平整那漲定了那我們今年的配套措施在哪裡?"},{"start":15316.181,"end":15320.264,"text":"這裡面我們有提到齁我們包括有我們包括說你只有來來來部長來部長本席看得非常清楚喔你這邊只有回顧歷史啊回顧歷史回顧什麼歷史回顧2022年2023年電價調漲的配套你所謂的照顧民生穩定物價以及兼顧產業但說實在話"},{"start":15341.411,"end":15352.385,"text":"都是講得非常的籠統啦而且重點就在於是說政府能做的已經做了但是要漲還是百般無奈啦但是2024年啊之字未提啊"},{"start":15353.722,"end":15376.887,"text":"所以換言之我們如果說現在如果說方向真的已經長定了我覺得今天召委開這個專案報告非常的好啊就重點就是說我們想要知道2024年如果說真的長定了你外面的媒體都已經放話大家都覺得是說就是要漲了海嘯要來了民生物價要調漲了壓力會變更大了成本會增加了我們經濟部或相關部會到底有什麼作為"},{"start":15377.967,"end":15390.055,"text":"第一個我的報告不能這樣講我報告裡面有提到政府的預算在補貼產業你沒有任何的實質的作為所以我們的補貼讓大家可以去購買節能的部分你的結語我真的有看到你的結語是如果說最後會漲啦政府還會依照反應成本照顧民生穩定物價節能減碳使用者付費原則辦理"},{"start":15406.437,"end":15431.263,"text":"所以你通篇今天7月的報告最後結論就是這個你2024年漲價會告訴全國人民說我們現在方案訂了沒有我不知道我們有沒有措施不知道我們有沒有什麼補貼不知道我們有沒有分級劇不知道到底是用戶少用量少的人少漲一點用量多的人多漲一點我們後續的補助方案不知道但是告訴大家啦"},{"start":15432.352,"end":15460.385,"text":"反映成本、照顧民生、穩定物價、節能減碳使用者付費這就是你的結論嗎?我們的報告就是讓大家在過往我們在調漲電價的時候本來就都有這些大顏色讓大家可以清楚那不就又是照本宣科又是沒有照本宣科啊又是跟以往一模一樣我們推大家來購買節能減碳的設備這個不是都是對的方向嗎?部長你這樣講那就跟過馬路要"},{"start":15461.785,"end":15474.776,"text":"綠燈要過馬路紅燈不要過馬路就交通規則就是告訴大家只要大家遵守這個規則就可以減少交通事故只要大家購買節能減碳的物品我們就可以減少用電這不是"},{"start":15475.981,"end":15477.982,"text":"國人跟本席 我想我今天會花那麼多時間其實我討論只有一個重點我們重點就是說經濟部到底準備好了沒"},{"start":15496.233,"end":15517.18,"text":"如果說今年4月就像你講的我今天真的很多東西我準備很多資料我都不想講譬如說大家有講是說你的原物料上漲因為二污戰爭所以原物料上漲所以藍媒的這個價格燃氣的價格等等的但是其實我們也查到資料燃氣從去年初就已經降到跟戰前差不多的一個原物料價格了嗎沒有沒有現在還是"},{"start":15517.5,"end":15518.462,"text":"這些其實都是國人想要去探究的重點"},{"start":15530.02,"end":15554.988,"text":"之前經濟委員會是不是也有要過說我們到底我們藍媒藍企的這個相關採購合約到底採購多少錢但是這些也都是機密也都沒有辦法給提供給我們的媒體代表可以公開的部分就是有隱藏非常多的一個資訊我現在講的是說到底我們如果說今年4月真的要調漲電價我們準備好了沒後續的配套措施出來沒"},{"start":15556.949,"end":15558.63,"text":"分析從開始到現在只想講的是說既然民進黨政府已經確定的方向就一定要調漲電價"},{"start":15584.551,"end":15594.621,"text":"那真的該做準備要做準備那還有最重要的是電價為什麼跟其他比如說接下來我們要問是水費也要漲嗎?瓦斯費也要漲嗎?"},{"start":15596.087,"end":15618.764,"text":"還有最重要電價為什麼那麼重要就是因為它是全部產業最重要的一個核心而且不管是民生不管是一般的老百姓電價一漲人民有感而且那個感受是帶動整個物價通膨上漲最主要的元兇這是簽一法而動全身這一些都是經濟部不可迴避的問題不是說等到520變成"},{"start":15620.145,"end":15620.165,"text":"好"},{"start":15653.2,"end":15657.242,"text":"主要就是人民真的很辛苦通膨"},{"start":15681.75,"end":15703.932,"text":"讓人民非常辛苦,薪水又沒有漲所以在這個階段整個配套未定還好審議委員會還沒有做出決定所以我們透過這樣子的一個討論也給政府部門可以好好的再去研討我們希望能夠以照顧民生穩定物價為基準這是非常重要"},{"start":15704.873,"end":15732.258,"text":"好,我們登記發言的委員除了不在場之外其餘都已經發言完畢,詢答結束我們有委員王美惠委員、劉建國委員、牛許廷委員所提的書面質詢我們列入公報刊登公報那書面質詢以及未答覆的部分請相關單位於一個禮拜之內呢以書面答覆並複製給本會那本週的議程處理完畢現在上會謝謝我們議事組人員謝謝"},{"start":15742.739,"end":15746.8,"text":"議員會議"},{"start":15757.462,"end":15765.412,"text":"議員的簡報筆好像丟在前面。簡報筆?你要馬上拿,有時候委員搞不清楚。你要問那個後面。那個有一個簡報筆,沒有看到。"}]}},{"id":"15701","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15701","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d73b8a2c1b37799c1f02a0ef817a6d1e53be8d109af184be484e75fe23ab2ee8b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-07","start_time":"2024-03-07T08:31:11+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:15:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":13429,"委員發言時間":"08:31:11 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那侯孟凱委員林倩琦委員好然後呢葉元芝委員"},{"start":1777.349,"end":1794.404,"text":"謝謝然後我們像故宮的部分裡面呢有我們的院長蕭宗煌校院長黃永泰副院長于沛景副院長還有主秘兼登錄保存處的處長徐孝德還有我們故宮綜合規劃處的張禪娟處長文獻處的代理處長何妍全"},{"start":1799.537,"end":1827.746,"text":"我們的物器處的吳小雲處長還有副處長是施佩瑩還有我們行銷業務處的王耀峰處長還有展示服務處的代理處長林國平謝謝還有我們南院的彭子誠處長還有我們資訊室的謝俊科主任還有秘書室的王雲芬主任"},{"start":1828.906,"end":1853.806,"text":"還有我們人事室的吳婉華主任祖記室的林美堯主任我們政風室的趙立青主任好那應該都是這樣子吧還有沒有這是我所要的名單OK好非常謝謝那我們現在就會請我們的蕭院長口頭報告現在目前為止這個業務報告報告的時間是12分鐘謝謝"},{"start":1875.035,"end":1885.959,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家早安大家好首先對於大宴教育文化委員會對故宮工作計畫及預算的支持以指證表達誠摯的謝意"},{"start":1888.527,"end":1891.791,"text":"接下來請就本院112年業務概況及113年工作重點作檢要報告一112年度業務概況"},{"start":1901.172,"end":1924.894,"text":"以專業服務營造友善空間建立任性設施積極推動新故宮計劃北部延期擴建計劃跟南部延期二管計劃皆依進度順利執行進度列有超前至於北延至山路口無障礙設施通道興建工程之細部設計也經臺北市都市計劃委員會審議通過"},{"start":1928.769,"end":1947.978,"text":"提供專業服務、精進導覽品質﹚持續精進第一線服務人員教育信念﹚多於導覽及自公培訓﹚增進對文化平淺的認識提供南部縣區嘉義台鐵站及高齡者與障礙者免費接駁服務"},{"start":1950.098,"end":1966.631,"text":"優化官網服務升級治安架構進行使用者回饋與調查機制優化官方網站配置升級治安架構及設備落實防護牆及分區控管提升網路服務品質及資料安全性"},{"start":1968.351,"end":1982.21,"text":"開放包容、創新展覽設計、多元文化轉譯．以觀眾對話進行展覽設計．並採跨國、跨管所文物界展．豐富展覽內容及促進多元文化交流．"},{"start":1983.231,"end":2008.334,"text":"接下來發展共榮教育：深化藝文體驗：落實文化金融前安排偏鄉協子參訪故宮：辦理兒童小志工：青少年大專研校志工及文化大使：徵選這些優秀的人來協助故宮做基層的推廣跟學校的教育：搭配各黨展覽策劃兒童及親自教育推廣活動："},{"start":2010.161,"end":2038.344,"text":"關照身心障礙者低度參與觀眾熱領族群的參觀服務接下來應用數位科技活化展示教育應用開放軟體數位體驗工具辦理跨域共創工作宜將教案行回全國建立學校國教署學科中心教師輔導團等教師培力計畫培養下一代博物館觀眾群"},{"start":2041.015,"end":2067.316,"text":"展示資源巡迴、增進在地對話推出移動博物館、教育箱、行為服務編輯偏鄉與客委會、銅鑼及屏東六堆客家文化園區、國美館、臺史博、彰化美術館、台南美術館甚至萬里區公所、奉天宮等館所合作辦理數位展覽"},{"start":2069.045,"end":2092.635,"text":"永續發展部分智慧庫房管理完備典藏知識112年南部縣區現行導入RFID文物管理系統以完成軟硬體建置及測試112年北部縣區由漆器庫房開始建構希望透過這樣的一個數位系統達成文物出入庫現代化管理作業"},{"start":2094.115,"end":2118.897,"text":"整合簽程及管理系統,讓文物不管是展覽或是修復的出入庫登錄更為精準。磁氣庫房改善違規是我們未來的重點。目前進行文物保存維護專業的執行,計畫改善典藏空間、文物存存及文物包裝方式。"},{"start":2119.958,"end":2134.023,"text":"在永續發展方面開放支援應用全民共享知識南院的部分的話已經推出13支策展人的深度導演那也完成兩支嘻哈的音樂創作那推廣音樂"},{"start":2135.464,"end":2145.476,"text":"以音樂的方式推廣博物館到年輕族群另外的話故宮開放文物的部分open data的話一百萬及六百萬張的話書已經釋出四十萬張會陸續釋出"},{"start":2152.031,"end":2179.55,"text":"至於故宮的podcast公說公有理的一個下載夜聽的措施的話有610萬次那也吃本各種圖錄期刊另外的話在加強安全韌性升級智慧監控的部分為維護文物及院區的安全升級中央電腦控制安全的核心系統監控設備跟儲存的資料設備加強防衛"},{"start":2181.451,"end":2201.906,"text":"加強化國際交流建立專業形象的部分邀請專家協著辦理博物館開放授權與AI應用的國際論壇那也跟法國的紀密博物館、荷蘭國家博物館、日本大阪市立東洋博物館等博物館簽署解密核定然後促進國際文化的交流"},{"start":2203.376,"end":2221.994,"text":"另外在推動智慧建築追求永續發展的部分的話的故宮特別成立國立故宮博物院警官執行小組及永續發展小組以符合生態經營理念規劃延期警官那在北部縣區的新的行政大樓、圖書館、文獻大樓、典藏大樓、私動建築"},{"start":2223.775,"end":2231.524,"text":"整建或新建進一起的立建築、智慧建築的標章候選證書南部延期停車場規劃太陽能發電的設備另外串聯在地資源媒合產官協會"},{"start":2242.656,"end":2264.273,"text":"2023臺北書展、文創博覽會、臺北國際禮展另外以教育部、文化部、交通部等甚至包括民間博物館及長榮文艳酒店共同推動藝文活動另外的話我們在去年的11月以外賣協會共同參與東京的臺灣形象展成果非常良好"},{"start":2266.353,"end":2273.81,"text":"在113年度工作重點的部分專業服務跨域整合行銷"},{"start":2275.663,"end":2295.301,"text":"這個部分特別提出就是專業研究都面向的策展從不同的面向策展然後讓觀眾可以瞭解故宮文物的一個多元面貌那在113年度一季推出神獸現形文物中的奇幻生物現在在南院展出然後看得見的紅綠青宮行堡"},{"start":2299.164,"end":2310.385,"text":"就是破解天之地號一期密碼然後清代金銀事件特展皇帝的移動花園宮廷的花卉跟公主駕到曾經故宮2.0等展覽"},{"start":2312.717,"end":2339.089,"text":"那在快推教培養年輕觀眾的部分就是運用典藏文物形象故宮以民眾生活達成連結﹐促進社會對話交流那以年輕時代辦理故宮校園大使的計畫﹐招募培訓青年大使跟文化志工那提升身心障礙者﹐文化參與辦理故宮自都心自閉症親子家庭博物館探索活動"},{"start":2340.369,"end":2365.689,"text":"聽容共賞所與導覽活動執行策展專業拓展兒少事務持續辦理策展委員會及兒童及青年執行委員會促進世代對話與跨界的實踐那在充實思維內容發展線上應用方面就是故宮應用數位典藏open data專區提供單一檢索的一個服務"},{"start":2367.05,"end":2388.175,"text":"另外在新媒體數位展的部分．我們今年一季會跟國立海洋科技博物館．國立公共自信圖書館臺中．跟桃園中立的人海工多個管所．辦理數位科技的一個應用展覽那在友善共融推動文化平淺部分．營造友善空間提升參觀環境"},{"start":2393.033,"end":2419.862,"text":"這個部分的話就是在北院的徒數文獻大樓的整建工程跟那個研究大樓的話已經在今年的12月今年底完工那另外的話就是113年南院的部分的話就是南院二館就故宮國保館會辦理特殊裝修工程及部展的一個先期規劃然後戶外延期的細部設計跟延期景觀的設置"},{"start":2422.028,"end":2432.445,"text":"在友善平淺關照社群需求部分辦理觀眾意見調查關照不同課群的多元文化需求精進友善平淺服務打造一清淨的全民博物館"},{"start":2434.239,"end":2458.907,"text":"在國際界展拓展文化視野方面今年會以華國﹑日本等國際博物館進行交流合作推出大美無垣﹑國立故宮博物院﹑巴黎裝飾藝術博物館跟幻客亞保的精品展在故宮北院及南院展出南院的部分今年的亞洲藝術節會推出萬國精良東亞海上的琉球特展"},{"start":2460.107,"end":2475.365,"text":"強化各界合作,跨域文化交流的部分,那這個部分的話就是本院典常委中心,然後辦理多管所的屆展,那另外的話我們也會辦理工作坊跟研討會,然後讓故宮的資源可以深化到各界。"},{"start":2476.506,"end":2491.227,"text":"優化保存環境提升庫房的部分就是我們一直持續在努力就是優化文物的庫房管理提升監控管理跟那個效能以維持延期跟那個典藏庫房的安全"},{"start":2492.509,"end":2514.267,"text":"那跨域支援生跟觀眾經營的話就提供多元的廣道與優惠然後開發青年旅館來參訪的意願那另外配合特展及年度的特殊節日辦理文化體驗活動比如說七年底的話我們辦理的那個博物館之夜今年我們也會持續以規劃來辦理"},{"start":2516.529,"end":2531.374,"text":"至於創新行銷策略開拓旅客市場的部分的話我們持續辦理參加國際展會例如說國際書展、文創展、旅展各種不同的展覽來行銷故宮"},{"start":2533.896,"end":2549.818,"text":"此夕辦理亞洲藝術節以多元形式快樂的展覽活動．展現故宮的文化多元性．另外今年會與德國經濟部國貿組合作．在德國柏林參加臺灣形象展"},{"start":2551.159,"end":2574.807,"text":"最後特別感謝貴院對本院的監督與支持完成113度年度預算的審查本會會漸漸讓預算精準有效率的執行最後感謝大院的支持本院將本禮專業服務開放多元友善共融持續發展讓故宮成為一個更有影響力的博物館謝謝大家"},{"start":2578.322,"end":2589.81,"text":"好,非常謝謝蕭院長的報告時間掌握得很好好,我們現在就開始來進行詢答那每位初期委員質詢的時間是8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席的委員質詢時間為4分鐘那發言登記的時間截止是在上午10點30分如果有臨時提案就請於上午10點30分"},{"start":2602.059,"end":2602.479,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請蕭院長"},{"start":2637.113,"end":2637.333,"text":"國民黨籍委員"},{"start":2662.389,"end":2684.651,"text":"講一件事情說我們故宮現在會在南院會有一個展覽是防品是增喉以邊中復制品要來南院的二樓大廳展示那有人馬上就會聯想到就是說2015年那個時候這個成龍影星有捐出十二生肖的授手當時被外界質疑說怎麼會"},{"start":2686.072,"end":2686.613,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2703.027,"end":2718.977,"text":"那一樣本席先講我認為文化可以分當代近代遠代如果說有教育意義文化意義的話我想大家都可以來推廣但現在我們故宮這樣子來這個爭吼以邊中會不會跟過去的這個立場有所不同"},{"start":2721.112,"end":2740.481,"text":"跟委員報告一下當然就是說有些事情時代環境不同整個客觀條件不同的話當然會有差異這也不能講說叫做雙重標準那當時那個搜射手的狀況的話因為我不在任內我不太清楚但是"},{"start":2741.809,"end":2760.856,"text":"這邊的話就是我要澄清的就是第一個曾和宇編宗並不是故宮主動要求的他的情況是因為傳譽中心買了這套編宗1997年買了這套編宗那原來是要作為一個展示因為他傳統藝術中心"},{"start":2762.717,"end":2782.094,"text":"同氣在古代的話除了做了祭氣、禮氣、食氣之外的話它還有一個非常重要的鐘鼎之業就是說它其實是一個業氣那過去的故宮是缺乏這一塊的所以因為因緣際會這一套業氣它行回了中山堂然後國務紀念館"},{"start":2784.056,"end":2804.351,"text":"目前的話是那個國立自然科學博物館之後他們是想找一個地方因為這個編宗的編制很完整需要的空間很大那要表演的時候也需要有一個腹地所以他們看上了故宮來院他們來勘查然後之後後來我了解了之後是問了同事同事說直接找院長"},{"start":2804.991,"end":2806.354,"text":"院長的確有收到他們的電郵我就請藍燕去演出演出的過程經過兩次院長你剛講是說"},{"start":2819.568,"end":2838.501,"text":"歷史博物館傳統藝術中心他們先去勘查了然後之後才來找院長說可不可以擺那他們都已經勘查完畢然後之後才來說他們要來做跟委員報告一下他們去通通看過他們覺得那個地方很滿意所以問了同事同事所以現在是"},{"start":2840.241,"end":2858.129,"text":"最好是直接找院長,所以他們有給我一個email,因為我昨天把這個事情的來龍去魔都查證了是,所以院長現在是那個傳統藝術中心他是文化部下的單位嘛,對不對那你們文化部跟我們故宮兩個單位是完全沒有連結或說完全沒有溝通的管道"},{"start":2859.264,"end":2881.923,"text":"還是沒有公文往返還是現在故宮我覺得最訝異的故宮現在展覽你剛先推給說這個是傳統藝術中心來看的並不是故宮主動邀請但有沒有這件事情有嘛那確實如果說5月就會有展出的話那當然地主是故宮大家一定會認為說這是故宮無論你是主動或是被動那你也是認可這樣的一個展覽嘛"},{"start":2882.903,"end":2901.963,"text":"基本上來講的話現在變成沒有機制還是說故宮沒有審查的機制或是說沒有任何的這種考慮的機制評分的機制還是每一個人都要找院長那就看院長的人情跟誰比較大人脈比較廣還是以前院長當過文化部的主秘所以文化部比較好講話"},{"start":2903.39,"end":2916.178,"text":"跟委員報告不是啦因為基本上來講的話現在的行政慣例的話就好像是生了感冒小病都要去大醫院一樣就是什麼事情的話都會推說上面決定上面決定"},{"start":2919.471,"end":2947.098,"text":"讓本席感到膽戰心驚喔南院的展覽沒有一套的SOP嗎?全部都變成是說委員長拍板定案不是跟委員報告這是一個教育推廣活動那因為這個事情的話當然沒有錯陳理委員講的他牽涉到文化部的相關的關係所以是比較敏感如果是同人自己辦的一個教育推廣活動請一個樂團來表演這些東西的話南院就自己可以做決定了"},{"start":2947.518,"end":2967.996,"text":"所以應該會有SOP嘛或者說他今天有什麼樣的展覽有什麼樣的推廣 有什麼樣的教育符不符合在這個南院的場地因為南院的場地可能沒有場租你國人來看到參觀的民眾不管是外國旅客不管是本國旅客來看到會認為說這個就是故宮呈現的等級的展演嘛"},{"start":2969.037,"end":2990.453,"text":"這是故宮的招牌那我現在在問的是說我們的SOP到底是什麼你現在居然講是說原來是傳統藝術中心的人知道說有院長email我就寫個email問院長說可不可以我自己先偷偷看過了那未來有任何人有院長的email大家都可以主動找你都不用透過我們這些官員"},{"start":2991.744,"end":2993.245,"text":"校長兼壯宗但是大家第一個窗口就要找院長"},{"start":3014.693,"end":3020.396,"text":"院長請聽本席的詢問那您再回答好不好本席只提醒第一我開宗明義講不要雙重標準第二本席也認為說有當代公益之美能夠展演可以展演"},{"start":3041.806,"end":3049.744,"text":"重點是要經過評估重點是經過我們能夠有一個完整的合理的說法而且對外有教育意義"},{"start":3051.141,"end":3078.78,"text":"可以嗎?對對對謝謝蕭學委員的指導基本上來講的話我們會針對這個案子我們召開會議然後請一些專家寫成大家共同來評論院長那再請教現在我們開放的這個疫情之後開放解禁然後剛剛開始觀光會進來了那很多人也會講是說哇來到台灣故宮一定是一個指標的一個展演之一那現在2024年我們參觀的目標人數定到多少人次"},{"start":3079.6,"end":3080.584,"text":"而二臨委員"},{"start":3081.877,"end":3109.493,"text":"北院的話,去年的話我們原來希望可以衝破一百萬但去年的話是一百五十五萬就超過我們原來的預估那今年的話我們會以目標兩百五十萬就再增加一百萬為目標那增加一百萬兩百五十萬為目標對但是我們全盛時期故宮一年可以到多少的觀光人士全盛時期的話故宮當然最高最高的一年的話有到五百多萬"},{"start":3110.894,"end":3129.487,"text":"2015年529萬好那今年疫情之前的話是380萬左右是來本席請教今年有沒有看到說交通部我們觀光的人數要衝多少要衝1200萬去年是600然後現在是1200對1200萬嘛對那我們來比較2015年最高的時候故宮可以有529萬對"},{"start":3138.61,"end":3142.421,"text":"2015年那個時候的觀光人次也不過就是一千萬出頭"},{"start":3143.368,"end":3167.84,"text":"今年既然觀光局也已經喊了交通部也是說要1200萬人次而大家也認為是說國外的旅客來到台灣其實也很希望說能夠來參觀故宮那故宮是不是應該要更有自信更有雄心壯志既然整個中央觀光局交通部都已經喊出1200萬的觀光人次的話那故宮少說也要收一半的觀光人次吧"},{"start":3169.16,"end":3186.334,"text":"有沒有這樣的雄心壯志?根委員報告業我們當然很期待可是那個入境的人數的話沒有辦法直接轉成那個參觀故宮的人數是沒有錯所以說這才是比例推估的問題院長本席要跟你講的是2015年你講說500多萬人次本國級占多少?"},{"start":3190.39,"end":3212.283,"text":"本國籍的話過去的比例的話本國籍的話我現在手上沒有資料沒關係本席直接跟你說我不是要用這個問題考導你我知道大概兩到三成左右來院長本席要告訴你的是委員在這邊質詢都有做功課而且都準備了相關資料比你們備詢都還要準備得完整2015年本國籍是100萬人次"},{"start":3215.385,"end":3235.861,"text":"外國籍人數有高達420萬人次所以加起來529萬而歷年10年下來我們本國籍的人次都差不多最高是100萬上下換言之故宮在2015年能夠衝到529萬有400多萬都是外國觀光客所以一樣的道理嘛你今年喊出了250萬的人次"},{"start":3237.742,"end":3267.008,"text":"本席也認為是說你250萬的話你本國籍你要再怎麼推因為他就有一個天花板所以也差不多是100萬人次但是你的外國觀光客怎麼樣可以成長到一倍150萬而更重要的是今天如果說交通部觀光局都已經喊出了今年要喊1200萬人次要進來的話你150萬只有占十分之一耶換言之你故宮已經自我去打折了認為是說1200萬的觀光人次來到台灣只有十分之一的人會來看故宮"},{"start":3268.51,"end":3292.693,"text":"那不就是跟我們以前的想像是有落差嗎以前大家會認為是說故宮是台灣的寶我們中華民國的寶各地觀光客來都來看故宮因為故宮是一個很重要的景點之一就如同我們去英國大英博物館我們去法國羅浮宮這個是重要的參考指標觀光指標但我們現在已經自我限縮了所以本席時間到了只是想要提醒院長"},{"start":3294.215,"end":3320.675,"text":"這些都是數字這些數據都是各部會應該要互相整合院長要做出來啦不是說只是每一個人都會講我們認真努力但重點是有沒有做那本席今天第一次質詢我們之前也都有其他業務都有互相的接觸過我了解你也是要做事的人"},{"start":3321.155,"end":3336.141,"text":"但最重要是我點出這個數字只是要告訴您說希望用數字管理希望用目標管理希望您以身作則帶領我們故宮所有的這一些一級主管同仁大家好好努力可以嗎好謝謝委員的勉勵好謝謝洪孟楷委員接下來我們請柯臻委員質詢"},{"start":3352.895,"end":3356.978,"text":"好 我們謝謝主席 我們請院長好 我們請蕭院長來 照一照是 院長你曾經在告訴大家說你的這個專業的生涯當中有兩樣事情就是藝術行政跟博物館的專業這是你畢生想做到的那請問你你覺得你目前為止真的有把南北院都做到這樣一個層次嗎"},{"start":3381.539,"end":3400.698,"text":"還在努力之中還在努力當中所以我們有很多東西我們可以好好來做一個檢討那我想身為一個我們就誠如大家所提到的故宮是我們國家之寶一個世界級的博物館它的管理當然是非常的重要當然很多事情都是在你上任之前所做的但是我們還是要瀏覽一下"},{"start":3402.119,"end":3422.314,"text":"我覺得像是過去來說陸續發生的明清這個文物的渾水這個回水呢還要爆出3萬張高階圖檔外流這些都是我們一筆一筆我們公堂所保存下來的然後結果外洩到這個淘寶來做個販售而且重要的是這是民眾來檢舉所以我請問故宮有揪出內鬼嗎目前為止進到什麼程度"},{"start":3427.907,"end":3443.934,"text":"好,如果第一個的話就是有關那個瓷器受損的部分的話我們已經完成修復然後也完成調查報告完成懲處那調查報告的話也分送監察院跟那個行政院"},{"start":3446.67,"end":3468.466,"text":"院長我只是要說你有沒有辦法在這地方跟大家承諾故宮的行政管理資安特別是文物的安全你有辦法向大家來做出承諾未來不會發生因為我要提醒剛剛我所說的事情你們應該是在一小時之內就要做通報你們是違反資安資通的安全的管理辦法你們是9個月之後呢才向數位部來做這樣的一個報告"},{"start":3470.051,"end":3490.149,"text":"所以跟委員報告一下因為所謂的土黨外流的部分是媒體一下報導說有10萬張的土黨外流那這個土黨外流的話我們去檢視的話的確就是那個同仁的話他是為了作為方便把土黨放到外部的區域不是在他內部內網的公園"},{"start":3491.09,"end":3491.55,"text":"目前有達到懲處嗎?目前沒有懲處"},{"start":3521.488,"end":3540.993,"text":"這個同仁基本上來講的話我們也送人憑好如果有確實質詢你就把公文拿給我來看一下好不好公文來拿給我看一下沒有問題然後呢很多的這個狀況裡面我們還是要看我想美醜這個部分每個人都各自有這樣子一個論斷身為民意代表我們對於一些經費還是要提出我們自己的看法南越"},{"start":3541.613,"end":3571.613,"text":"總設計師"},{"start":3573.559,"end":3573.579,"text":"專業評估"},{"start":3578.238,"end":3591.482,"text":"這個部分的話基本上來講的話他所有的程序都是依照採購法公共院長你都會用這個方式另外的話就是說這個計畫的話是在新故宮計畫裡面新故宮我等一下會好好跟你討論新故宮到底是不是華而不實我馬上就可以討論到這一塊我們只是說目前來說的話你們說這個東西可以管中虧月在這個地方我去過"},{"start":3602.526,"end":3629.182,"text":"的確夜晚很漂亮但是你不要忘記了南院晚上也不開幕好不好我今天所要強調的一點就是我們現在目前南院狂打所謂的公共藝術而且呢把這個公共藝術當作是常設的一個展如果你是這樣子的話你反而把你自己南院過去的常設像是玉器展還有嘉義文史中的廳把它撤除而且嘉義文史廳你現在把它變成一個小小的媒體是玉器根本就已經撤除掉了而且我還要問一下"},{"start":3630.123,"end":3648.014,"text":"你們目前的策展人員過去故宮很引以為豪是你們是非常的專業的那我想本來是只有典藏科的研究員才有辦法當成策展員可是南院對不起你的教展科的人也可以辦所以才會上次發生上次泰國展沒有什麼時事東西可以看的而且你們還甚至修改內規讓應該要有研究員身份的人現在來擔任行政高員院長這些事情你都有來做一些的討論跟瞭解嗎"},{"start":3658.43,"end":3681.42,"text":"我想這個部分的話,我舉我在台北館的例子,任何一個主事都要策展。教育推廣組策教育推廣展,典藏組策典藏展。基本上來講的話,只要你是研究職人員的話,基本上來講的話,都有策展的一個領域。專業是你們最重要,今天我們所討論的專業還是還有把你的"},{"start":3683.201,"end":3685.204,"text":"為什麼沒有所謂的研究員背景的人可以擔任你們南院的副處長?"},{"start":3698.84,"end":3699.461,"text":"南苑的兩棵松素聽說要花費相當進口車的價錢"},{"start":3717.177,"end":3732.052,"text":"我只是告訴大家就是說你們過去南院在種植任何的這個植栽的時候都是要符合本土的這樣的一個氣候我只是認為說南院應該投資的都是在你們展覽跟教育如果你今天是一個一個所謂的藝術中心"},{"start":3733.954,"end":3748.301,"text":"就算了但是你像南越是個故宮南越還有他的一個基本的精神存在所以呢不管是我剛所提出來部分裡面還有過去呢你還有還有辦了非常多的活動包括在外面給孩子玩殺等等"},{"start":3749.181,"end":3749.201,"text":"院長："},{"start":3765.758,"end":3780.735,"text":"因為故宮園區的福原廣大除了鎮館之外的話,戶外園區的話當然會有一些景觀那景觀的話當初的規劃他的這些植栽的價錢的話基本上來講也都是當時評估經過一個程序去完成的"},{"start":3781.015,"end":3785.54,"text":"院長我只是強調你身為要以博物館的專業所以說我們強調南院的本館的主體性外面的那些部分如果你把它定位在一般的休閒或是一般的"},{"start":3798.012,"end":3798.032,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":3818.84,"end":3846.174,"text":"我想請問部長1月3日及2月3日兩天有說明會很多人就認為在這個說明會當中很多問題還是沒有釐清過去呢我在第9屆的時候呢我也提出這些的計劃裡面當中有很多不當之處如果你今天是修復漏水等等一些主管裡面的一些修復我沒有意見但是你現在牽涉到我想院長應該看得很清楚那時候大家所看到的就是故宮沒有所謂的入口意向的"},{"start":3846.834,"end":3871.596,"text":"議員．"},{"start":3871.616,"end":3872.757,"text":"國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌"},{"start":3897.819,"end":3905.324,"text":"你認為做一個玻璃的這樣一個大的建築就會讓他的意向的所謂的入口更清晰更明顯嗎這是你所認為的嗎基本上來講他沒有遮蔽主體嗎而且他還具有所謂的你們的建築師還說具有他的可逆性的原則這個是有對"},{"start":3925.498,"end":3940.929,"text":"建築設計是一個實證的科學所以故宮當初的話從第一棟方塊形然後變長方形變摸字形然後總共經過了5次的改建所以裡面的故宮動線大家會認為說故宮的動線很清楚嗎?"},{"start":3945.029,"end":3945.729,"text":"根文報告根文報告"},{"start":3963.499,"end":3986.997,"text":"跟委員報告基本上來講故宮依照文資法的程序然後把他的設計方案送到臺北市文資審議會審議我們會尊重審議的結果因為好部長院長我最後只問了一個這是在你前任院長裡面所設定下來的這是在吳院長所定下來的我最後只問你一個你真的願意為這些整建的計畫來做"},{"start":3988.018,"end":3989.638,"text":"臺北市文資審議委員會審議通過之後我們才會去進行"},{"start":4015.265,"end":4019.048,"text":"但是故宮裏面的動線基本上的確要重整因為當初規劃故宮的時候從來都沒有想到說那個舒嬅完整呈現她只是想說"},{"start":4038.643,"end":4039.103,"text":"接下來我們請萬美玲委員"},{"start":4068.533,"end":4070.934,"text":"謝謝趙偉,我們有請院長院長好,院長好我想院長知道本席是中華民國與捷克國會聯誼會的會長所以一直以來都很關心我們兩國之間各方面的交流跟進展我記得其實好像是在111年9月的時候"},{"start":4093.988,"end":4116.598,"text":"傑克的國家博物館館長盧克斯有來到台灣也跟台灣簽署了很多項備忘錄其中有一項就包括故宮要跟傑克的博物館姊妹館的協議書當中有一個非常重要的算案活動就是要把故宮的收藏品拿到傑克去展出"},{"start":4117.498,"end":4146.371,"text":"那當時我記得那個時間點應該本來講的是今年對不對那後來現在我看起來故宮現在給我的這個期程是明年那明年我們如果是確定現在是要演到明年第一個為什麼演第二個呢明年的9月我們就要赴捷克來做一個國際的一個出展一個借展那也預計是有百件以上的展品要來出國展覽其中非常重要的就是我們的國寶翠玉白菜跟清明上河圖"},{"start":4147.031,"end":4174.217,"text":"好像都有規劃要到捷克來出展那這個部分的話院長能不能回答一下的確就是因為疫情的關係所以故宮原來規劃的有一些國際交流活動的話都是因為這個原因而辭返那捷克的話當然在之前的話有簽過合作備忘錄但是正式的展覽內容的話都還在洽談之中"},{"start":4176.437,"end":4177.357,"text":"院長,我們這麼重要的文物、國寶要出訪"},{"start":4196.224,"end":4215.291,"text":"當然您剛所說的司法免扣押的這個事情非常的重要那據本期瞭解在捷克司法免扣押修法案在今年的2月8號那已經在眾議院一讀了那這個眾議院通過之後那現在要送參議院來審議那大家這個會多久的時間因為是屬於捷克內部我們"},{"start":4216.992,"end":4235.168,"text":"但是我想既然我們要出訪我們也要有準備嘛所以這個進度非常的重要因為如果司法免扣壓這個修法有一些這個狀況或者沒有過那當然我們不能輕易出去所以您有沒有掌握那這個修法的進度能夠趕得及明年的9月我們要出訪前能夠通過嗎"},{"start":4236.79,"end":4262.69,"text":"這個進度的話我們一直透過外交部跟那個駐捷克代表處密切在關注之中基本上來講的話捷克國家博物館他們的表達是非常樂觀的但故宮作為一個展覽的一個策展的團隊我一直告訴我們一副院長他是這個總策展人就是說我們把所有的事情都準備到可以上會機"},{"start":4269.073,"end":4285.501,"text":"院長我想世界各國對於故宮的這個收藏真的都是非常的讚許可以說我們的收藏舉世聞名那有機會到世界各國去做這樣的交流讓全世界的人更多人看到我們的收藏我想這是一件非常好的事情"},{"start":4286.542,"end":4297.937,"text":"我們除了明年的捷克現在在等司法免扣押修法之後我們就都準備好了這很棒那近期我們還沒有這個規劃我們的國寶要到其他的國家去這個展覽"},{"start":4299.912,"end":4322.223,"text":"跟委員報告因為委員問了要不然的話就是對外交流的展覽基本上來講的話我們沒有到那個出發之前的話我們就不會對外去說明那的確我們跟法國的凱利朗利博物館的話也是一樣明年的秋季也有一個展覽在洽談之中"},{"start":4323.584,"end":4346.424,"text":"基本上來講的話我們的運作也都是包括雙方的人員的互訪然後去討論合約的內容跟展品顯件這基本上來講的話都已經到了一個階段了可是因為現在還沒有因為我們程序上的話最後的定版要報給文化部文資及審議然後"},{"start":4348.306,"end":4368.107,"text":"獲得委員會同意後才能確定,所以這個程序的話還在進行之中。好,院長,我想這是非常好,如果明年我們捷克、法國都能夠順利的來出展,那我想其實這對兩國都很好,對於我們故宮收藏讓全世界更多人看見,這都是很棒的一件事情。不過其實本期在這裡要提醒,我想"},{"start":4368.627,"end":4390.684,"text":"不論是我們的國寶翠玉白菜或者清明上河圖都是非常重要的國寶那據本席了解其實故宮的文物到各國展覽最近的一次應該是在2019其實有一點時間了差不多5年多有了那明年我們要到海外去展覽那準備工作您剛剛說隨時都可以上飛機了但是我想不是那麼簡單就是東西上了就好了"},{"start":4391.164,"end":4398.426,"text":"前置作業其實蠻多的我記得在108年1月故宮國寶有一個顏真卿記職文稿等等的一些古物那時候我們到東京日本東京的國立博物館來借展那事後其實被監委發現這個古物狀況的一個檢驗並沒有依照借展合約書相關的規範來執行那造成保管借展國寶這個古物的責任不明而產生很多的糾紛那這樣的狀況"},{"start":4420.632,"end":4443.402,"text":"我想在當時可能故宮也會覺得我們準備好了但準備好絕對不是文物上飛機包好就好那關於這樣的一個事情有沒有可能再發生我們有做任何的防範嗎跟委員報告一下嚴貞卿的記者文稿的話就是他出國的話是有一些不同的觀點但是絕對沒有所謂的爭議因為他是經過文資審議通過文資委員認為說那個物件的狀況"},{"start":4447.924,"end":4447.944,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":4467.847,"end":4489.62,"text":"院長本席其實認為我們要更多的觀光客更多我們的國人來故宮看我們的國寶跟文物這是非常重要的但是本席個人認為能夠出訪讓世界各國做這樣的一個博物館之間交流對故宮來講是正向的但是我們要保護我們的國寶跟我們重要的文物這個先前準備的工作絕對不能輕忽所以這一點要請院長跟團隊多注重"},{"start":4491.741,"end":4505.641,"text":"跟委員報告一下,絕對不是說上飛機就走,而是說我們選舉的會議都要處理。沒關係,院長,我想本時這個就是在這裡跟您做一個戰役提醒,不能有任何的疏忽嘛。那要不你們以前也沒有認為故宮會打破文物啊,但它就打破啦,是不是?"},{"start":4507.583,"end":4509.727,"text":"我們有做了一個明確的調查 那我們也做了很多內部的一個改善措施"},{"start":4522.967,"end":4544.383,"text":"院長我想順著剛才我講的這個就是之前故宮打破這個典藏文物的這個事件我相信大家都不願意不過在那個事件之後我們也發現報出故宮收藏了70萬件的一個文物而大多數都沒有完成文資指定的審議那故宮在94年的時候做戰型的分級4903件這個國寶跟35858件的重要古物那只有在那時候做這樣的分級不過"},{"start":4551.749,"end":4581.749,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":4581.849,"end":4584.53,"text":"委員長,我想要問您的是到底是故宮送件的速度太慢還是數量太少還是文資局審議的速度自己太慢有延宕或者人力太少"},{"start":4606.4,"end":4617.957,"text":"能不能給我們一個原因跟委員報告表列上的話就是9494年暫定國寶就是49000件然後完成指定的話就48205件以比例來講的話他已經完成98%"},{"start":4622.964,"end":4643.315,"text":"重要鼓舞的話是35858然後那個現在完成的話是47%那基本上來講的話故宮是以先國寶先審定為主然後直觸下來因為國寶如果沒有通過國寶的話他就會往下掉然後重新報一次審重要鼓舞"},{"start":4643.835,"end":4672.16,"text":"那之後的話因為一般的古物的話是地方政府所以一定是先處理國寶然後再處理重要古物然後再一般古物的情況這樣子好其實院長因為您也從文化部來那我想不論是故宮這邊在送審或者是文化部那裡的速度我想您都可以做一個這個很好的這個調和這個時間那應該要去催促的趕快催促我們希望讓國寶跟重要文物都可以盡快審議完畢"},{"start":4674.04,"end":4676.342,"text":"最後一點因為時間的關係我只做重點提醒我們的新故宮計劃當中有關於故宮北院的整建計劃還有圖書文獻大樓的整建計劃不過這個整建計劃看起來我們的工程速度是有往後延宕"},{"start":4689.975,"end":4710.768,"text":"那沒有辦法如期去完成那這會有一個問題要提醒您現在很多的公共工程都因為種種原因去延宕了延宕以後我們的預算就必須要增加了所以呢您要做兩個準備第一個把工程的期限能不能如期把它趕上來第二個萬一真的要延宕您的預算在哪裡可能要把它找出來但最重要的是趕快把工程期趕上那這兩點因為時間關係我沒有辦法贅述那我相信院長也明白所以我們趕快把這工程期去趕上來好不好"},{"start":4717.432,"end":4721.234,"text":"好謝謝委員提醒文化會加緊努力好謝謝好我們謝謝萬委員謝謝院長接下來我們請羅廷維委員好謝謝主席有請蕭院長好院長"},{"start":4746.18,"end":4768.496,"text":"院長早 院長我想說跟你討論一下那個主改的問題故宮現在為二級機關跟教育部文化部都同屬一個部會等級他是國家組織層級當中我想這是最高的一個博物館那想近幾年還有人在討論這個部會他們有沒有要討論這個主改的問題我想故宮主改的議題院長你怎麼看"},{"start":4770.58,"end":4791.901,"text":"基本上來講主改的話是行政院的整個對組織編制對整個國立的一個規劃那主改的部分的話基本上來講我過去也曾經講過就是說我在文化部裡面也沒有聽說那個故宮要把它放進到文化部的"},{"start":4792.321,"end":4793.282,"text":"院長,你覺得故宮未來的定位是什麼?"},{"start":4812.236,"end":4828.069,"text":"故宮未來的定位基本上來講作為一個行政組織的架構似乎是有待商榷的因為全世界博物館的話都不見得是一個政府的行政組織的概念而是一個文化機構的專業組織"},{"start":4829.77,"end":4830.871,"text":"我想請問一下新聞媒體有報導過有人在討論說要改名稱華夏博物館博物院對不起那你覺得你認同嗎"},{"start":4852.784,"end":4873.556,"text":"基本上來講我講他有一個菸鹽脈絡驟然改名的話要有更多的社會共識那我想前故宮的院長吳院長曾經說過故宮的人事制度上有一個弱點那就是沒有任期制我想在這一點會跟著政黨輪替的變化那我想你認為應該要有任期制嗎院長"},{"start":4877.839,"end":4891.038,"text":"這個部分的話它跟其他的那個政府主治或是機構不一樣因為它如果是它是一個行政法人或是一個董事會的機制當然有所謂的任期制可是以全世界來講的話"},{"start":4892.961,"end":4893.501,"text":"你支持草法人化經營嗎?"},{"start":4916.55,"end":4932.698,"text":"這個部分的話我想我剛講過就是要有更多的社會共識社會共識好謝謝你這一部分的一個詢問來做一個表態那我想不知道院長知不知道我們故宮曾經擠身全球百大前史成為最多人參觀的博物館展覽2015年4月13日媒體報導根據是英國的藝術報"},{"start":4937.361,"end":4966.033,"text":"他的統計2014年全球最多人參觀的博物館展覽當中台北故宮博物院我們就是有報辦前三名當時觀光人數來到540多萬我們都知道故宮在這前兩年疫情的一個摧殘當中觀光人數真的是慘不忍睹包括我所看到官網統計的數字是北院155萬左右那南院是95萬左右總共大約250萬人次這部分你有掌握嗎"},{"start":4968.3,"end":4997.54,"text":"這部分的話就是一直是我們積極努力的目標那我想為什麼他當時能夠來到540萬我們評估故宮有一半的訪客是入客只有三分之一的人潮是當地的旅客那當時2015年這個精算的話入客沒有到百分之沒有到一半好沒關係那這就是我們各自的一個分析啦但沒關係我尊重你的一個分享但當時我想就我們所知道"},{"start":4998.26,"end":5022.135,"text":"沒有故宮南院南院也是2015年的12月左右才成立的現在兩院加起來250多萬一部分受到疫情的影響當然我們不能夠去怪罪博物館這邊但是一部分受到兩岸關係的惡化我想目前我們疫情後逐漸復甦但是我們兩岸關係觀光旅客已經確定人數不負往日的風光"},{"start":5022.975,"end":5037.1,"text":"我想現在入客進不來我們只能夠期待其他的國家那我想例如韓國日本其他東南亞的國家參訪重觀故宮去年的參觀人數北院院區參觀人數155萬其中國際旅客與韓國36.6%最多日本我記得是27.5G次"},{"start":5045.643,"end":5059.593,"text":"我想昨天網路上流傳一個圖片我想跟你分享一下不知道院長有沒有看過這張圖是左手邊左手邊那我們把它改成了右手邊這樣子我想同理可證我們看到"},{"start":5061.614,"end":5090.098,"text":"國內旅遊真的蠻貴的所以大家都往國外跑反而去日本旅遊好像比較便宜這個問題同樣也反映在故宮的身上這是我們看到日本遊客我們以前很多但在疫情以後情況似乎有些轉變日本遊客不一定這麼愛來台灣也因此我想詢問一下院長目前入客無法前來的情況之下故宮有沒有什麼新的措施吸引更多外國國外的一個觀光旅客來回流"},{"start":5091.805,"end":5108.647,"text":"跟委員報告就是委員資料上也顯示就是說去年故宮參訪的有可以韓國居多那當然就是說剛好也是一個那樣的一個機緣所以故宮博物院增加我們官網的韓語的網站然後另外出版韓語的導覽手冊"},{"start":5110.349,"end":5130.195,"text":"當然此外的話就是故宮南院剛好辦理了朝鮮與清宮的文化特展所以這多多少少都對那個韓國的旅客增加有幫助我想更加友善是我們現在做的但是我們緊接而來有沒有更具體的作為可以把這個國際觀光客再引來我們台灣呢"},{"start":5131.226,"end":5150.067,"text":"因為整個國際疫情的影響,所以觀眾在從事文化交流的次序的話,基本上來講的話稍微緩慢一點。以入境的旅客來講的話,觀光局入境旅客的話,商務跟旅業,旅業的話就是比如說外籍移工,他們的數字比較多。"},{"start":5152.891,"end":5163.847,"text":"在疫情之後都是用一種很快速短程的所以基本上旅遊的部分開放的比較晚所以去年的話我們是跟觀光局合作推出郵輪的專案今年會繼續辦理"},{"start":5165.97,"end":5167.192,"text":"我想本期還是要提醒行政院在107年1月24的新聞稿有提到"},{"start":5184.735,"end":5194.307,"text":"113年新故宮的計畫建設完成後預期創造南北院的參觀人數達800萬那我想門票與文創收入分別成長3.8億及5.6億國際及國內參觀的消費者產生"},{"start":5200.374,"end":5224.599,"text":"會有1.347億元現在的觀光人數我們看到是250萬那800萬怎麼達成當然疫情我們真的都不能夠去怪罪那未來這800萬我們要怎麼去達到這個目標我希望我可以看到有更具體的作為可以會後跟我們討論那第二個我想跟你請教一下如果如何推廣故宮的一個文物在故宮的業務報告第三頁我們有看到"},{"start":5226.16,"end":5244.375,"text":"關網提供展覽主題的網站服務及豐富的線上資源我想就我們看到故宮的YouTube7.15萬人的一個訂閱但裡面所拍攝的文物介紹觀看人數不到400觀看人數這麼少院長你會不會覺得拍攝的人都覺得很心寒"},{"start":5247.841,"end":5266.457,"text":"基本上來講的話社群媒體的話它的流量的話就是要看什麼時候所以我想這個社群媒體的經營有一個比較特殊的議題的話流量就馬上衝高比如說我一個小女生在DECA上面講說那個什麼故宮的那個不能用文化幣然後那天的話我們的流量的話就飆得特別高"},{"start":5268.239,"end":5290.495,"text":"我想故宮在文物介紹推廣我想還是要實際的一個加強當然不是只是花錢買廣告怎麼讓它更有流量更多人點閱我想這是要會後來探討的那我想關切有關2002年的文物損壞的一個問題共有三件典藏的瓷器破損目前的修復狀況如何"},{"start":5292.038,"end":5316.311,"text":"都已經完全修復了然後也做了公開展示根據省紀部的一個查核顯示近10年故宮院長已經抽點了15000餘件文物此修復文件文物約有437件待修復那我想為實際修復的數量只有79件不及兩成比例稍有落差這部分你要怎麼加強"},{"start":5317.752,"end":5317.972,"text":"現在待修復437"},{"start":5338.264,"end":5357.102,"text":"對抽點的情況基本上來講抽點有發現他有變異的時候我們也會要求修復但是如果有一些文物他沒有要應用沒有要展覽所以並不急著修復的時候有時候我們會維持他的一個穩定的狀態"},{"start":5358.243,"end":5377.791,"text":"那我想國人都非常關心文物損壞的一個修復情形尤其是最好不要再有任何的損壞我們也會持續關注這樣的議題但目前我所要強調的是待修復的文件你們已經列出437件我們看到實際修復只有79件不到兩成我想國人也非常關心未來修復的情形能夠再加強"},{"start":5378.471,"end":5379.052,"text":"接下來我們就請葉元智委員"},{"start":5411.539,"end":5435.932,"text":"不好意思請院長好院長院長好根據您的報告裡面有提到就是說我們在故宮的語音導演應該是蠻重要的對不對是語音導演部分應該是蠻重要的因為我看你的報告專業服務的部分有分三項其中除了空間的友善之外第二個重要就是語音的服務了"},{"start":5436.492,"end":5448.724,"text":"語音導覽的話我們有兩種一種的話就是那個現場的志工的那個導覽解說另外的話就是雅凱的一個系統那故宮自己有一個語音導覽系統"},{"start":5450.493,"end":5479.312,"text":"好,我們辦公室有去看資料就是您剛剛講的雅凱系統實際上它包括北院跟南院加起來大概我們給他的預算是經濟總共大概是一千八百多萬嘛對吧總共是一千八百多萬嘛現在都是這個廠商在做嘛沒錯齁但是您剛剛有提到就是說這個語音導覽的人員非常重要可是我們在這個雅凱他在真人的"},{"start":5480.393,"end":5483.994,"text":"跟委員報告因為已經導覽基本上來講的話是系統的建置是後台"},{"start":5499.998,"end":5522.694,"text":"所以他的前台服務人員的話就是說登記然後發那個耳機跟那個播音器而已所以這個部分的話基本上來講的話因為屬於委外單位的我們當然會經過委員的提醒我們會去關心他的一個薪資待遇的狀況所以你說他們這個是負責幫人家在前台掛耳機"},{"start":5524.035,"end":5546.273,"text":"就是架子上面的耳機分配耳機然後登記這些東西那實際上的導覽人員呢實際上的導覽人員第一個如果是現人導覽的話是我們的導覽志工那耳機的部分的話就是這種機械系的導覽就是那個數位導覽的話基本上來講的話都是一個內建的系統"},{"start":5547.751,"end":5569.131,"text":"內建的系統我剛講就是說有一個是故宮自己的內建系統的話是屬於比較長色展的部分那牙改的部分的話它變動性比較高所以是都是事先錄好了然後帶了耳機然後按鍵它就會播放所以跟人眼的導覽不一樣它的人眼的那個要求不一樣"},{"start":5569.952,"end":5589.309,"text":"所以雅凱他做的主要是建制系統嗎建制系統的話是那個經費所以為什麼要有1800多萬基本上來講的話是因為他系統的建制他請人做翻譯做錄音做系統的建制要這個錢那另外的話那個工作人員基本上前台的話只是在做"},{"start":5590.009,"end":5591.15,"text":"我發現說使用的數目我不知道院長你滿意嗎?"},{"start":5610.468,"end":5629.31,"text":"現在112年當然112年那團體機的使用人數是6萬3各導機使用人數是3萬多這可能是受到疫情的影響人數下降所以當然使用這個機器的人數變少可能112年就是去年"},{"start":5630.657,"end":5658.715,"text":"他有回升然後在北院的部分112年團體機使用是36萬但各島機14萬那南院部分又更偏低了我們就講去年112年團島機是10萬人那各島機只有2萬多人那這樣的人數加起來大概是80幾萬我不知道院長你覺得滿不滿意基本上來講的話如果一個好的展覽在歐美地區的話他們的"},{"start":5660.117,"end":5661.258,"text":"國立故宮博物院議員"},{"start":5676.906,"end":5679.868,"text":"對於那個有特殊的需求的話我們當然就是一定還是要準備相當的服務"},{"start":5700.257,"end":5728.256,"text":"因為我們是覺得說東西要花錢去做當然現在院長的感覺是好像是以備不時之需就是說好像他有用到的話我們再給他最好是他不要用到但是實際上我們花團導的話我們會建議用團導機的原因就是說因為用團導機的話他的聲量可以控制他用一個麥克風他就可以讓每個人戴耳機聽到對那沒關係那我們就聚焦在團導機那不知道院長你滿意這個團導機的人數嗎"},{"start":5731.137,"end":5753.327,"text":"基本上來講這是積極於一個觀眾服務的需求如果觀眾服務有需求的話他們就會租用那要不然的話他們李先生帶來的話那個院長我知道你的態度了你的態度就是反正我這個東西算不錯團長其實我也鼓勵但是我們就被動的請他們來他們要用我們就提供嘛所以在人數上你並不會覺得說人數少就怎麼樣"},{"start":5754.467,"end":5776.942,"text":"沒有關係,院長我想問一下因為從這個使用導覽機的人數來看我不知道能不能反映遊客的人數像北院在112年它的使用人數有明顯的回升到36萬但南院就是團導機的部分實際上112年它和111年使用團導機的人數其實並沒有差很多從7萬8變成10萬2千這個是不是代表南院實際上沒有什麼團體課"},{"start":5781.765,"end":5804.954,"text":"不是這樣子,就是比例上來講的話藍燕的就是在地的本地的觀眾比較多,所以他們需要本地比較多,團體比較少團體也是本地的比較多,就故宮藍燕來講的話他的外籍旅客比較少所以外籍旅客比較需要用到這樣的一個導覽工具"},{"start":5806.363,"end":5834.485,"text":"那所以你沒有考慮說針對南院部分針對國際做宣傳嗎沒有南院的部分我們希望說主要都是服務在地客是不是沒有我們希望把北院的客人也可以拉南院所以現在北院的知名度基本上來講的話是相當那就代表說你目前還沒有達到你期望成效嘛因為你也希望說北部的團客可以下去嘛是對吧那院長你繼續加油好不好你繼續加油那下一個議題喔這個"},{"start":5836.346,"end":5850.694,"text":"去年陳建仁院長曾經在院會的時候證實過一件事情就是我們的土黨國保土黨曾經有被大量的駭客入侵過對不對總共被駭了大概10萬多件院長你記得這件事情嗎"},{"start":5851.994,"end":5871.85,"text":"這個害不是害的問題因為他們從來故宮網站都沒有被害禁忌過只是說我們把...被盜取啦好啦好啦被盜取啦因為這不是我講的重點被盜取啦盜取這個事情也不精切因為事實上我們同仁去海撈所有在網路上的包括淘寶包括那個什麼書"},{"start":5873.251,"end":5900.602,"text":"的網站裏面的真正故宮的所謂的高階圖堂資料的話大概不到兩...不到兩截好沒關係因為這個事情其他的話因為我時間快到了因為陳建仁院長在去年大家在院會他也證實有這件事情我所以你說不精確我不知道你是不是打臉陳建仁院長而且當時陳建仁院長也承諾說這個是已經沒有再外流了然後甚至於說會處理要求"},{"start":5901.102,"end":5922.385,"text":"在大陸如果說有淘寶或百度買得到的話會用請律師請他們下架所以理論上來講現在我們在百度跟淘寶應該是找不到可是昨天我助理他就隨便在淘寶又查到了就有關於大家可以看這個圖台北故宮博物院的觀賬圖裡面有3萬餘件故宮的高清圖素材"},{"start":5922.585,"end":5948.889,"text":"而且在去年2月份的時候剛好就被賣掉而且買家的評價很高阿他說這保證贈品阿可以放心他說這個畫質非常清晰然後我們為了要確保說這個東西到底是不是故宮的贈品所以我助理也特別去跟他對話對方講說保證贈品可以放心購買喔然後他說有圖可以看嗎這是高薪的那我想問院長當然你剛剛講說這不一定是真的但對方說是真的"},{"start":5949.349,"end":5966.283,"text":"但是第一個至少可以證實說至少是陳建成院長證實說去年是有的嘛那第二像這種在網路上在淘寶上面還是買得到這個東西你有沒有什麼反制措施然後你去年說會要求他們下架那請問你的具體作為是什麼"},{"start":5967.476,"end":5981.933,"text":"第一個院長說他知道這件事情但是知道這件事情是媒體報導但是土黨外流這個事情的話基本上來講的話這是一個烏龍事件所以沒有土黨外流沒有不是"},{"start":5982.654,"end":5996.004,"text":"國立故宮博物院院長我沒有時間了你不要請你這個問題回答其實我對你都很客氣啦有沒有土黨外流的事情有沒有沒有所以沒有對因為所以院長去年的時候說他知道這個事情而且會處理是院長搞烏龍你的意思是這樣沒關係謝謝你院長"},{"start":6002.148,"end":6024.848,"text":"第二件事情就是如果說沒有外流的話那現在因為淘寶買得到而且買家宣稱說是故宮贈品那這已經影響到故宮的名譽了嘛如果說對岸在賣這個東西然後大家買到高薪以為是故宮贈品那其實品質沒有那麼好那對故宮的聲譽也是有影響那我現在就問你說你是怎麼去處理這個事情我跟委員報告故宮"},{"start":6027.13,"end":6056.169,"text":"一百萬畫素跟六百萬畫素四十萬張都已經是open data出去了所以基本上來講淘寶他抓的就是故宮open data的這些資料那為什麼淘寶抓這個來賣因為大陸他有網路限制他沒有辦法抓所以他就他要抓故宮的網站進故宮的網站的話他要花很多力氣所以淘寶把他打包來賣為什麼建賣如果說真的有那麼重要那麼困難的話那他可以賣貴一點啊"},{"start":6057.47,"end":6069.039,"text":"他就是因為你任何一個人在做任何一個人上Google open data因為你講這個東西跟去年院長講已經不一樣而且當時你們的說法是說這個研究員也被懲處了那如果你調查結果說是一個烏龍事件那我不知道為什麼要懲處他啦而且第一時間你說我跟你講一般委員去年的委員在院會質詢院長的時候院長說知道這個事不會說知道媒體的報導啦"},{"start":6085.592,"end":6102.273,"text":"那如果說是院長都是透過媒體報導才知道行政院發生的事情那院長就你們這件都不用做了啦他直接看新聞就好了所以你今天的講法我覺得是非常的不尊重行政院長陳建仁那我不知道為什麼你會這樣子改口然後你現在你後來的改口你有沒有跟院長報告"},{"start":6103.294,"end":6112.89,"text":"這都是問題,然後結論就是如果你現在認為說其實那是一個烏龍事件但現在我們在淘寶就是買得到這已經影響到故宮聲譽請你做出捍衛故宮聲譽的行動這你有辦法嗎?"},{"start":6117.024,"end":6145.451,"text":"我們有透過一個法律程序我們找了一個什麼法律程序這就是我今天才查的嘛他還在賣嘛那你要你就是沒有做到嘛因為基本上來講的話我們也有花粉沒關係院長因為我時間到了啦這是第一次我質詢你啦可以感覺到好像你對於故宮的國寶的捍衛並沒有決心你對於故宮的名譽的捍衛也沒有決心而且我剛剛問你旅客部分你說對啊我就是要增加團客啊那就是沒辦法啊這個語音建制就是我們建制好了啊"},{"start":6145.691,"end":6150.533,"text":"我不能包牌說你買票的時候沿導覽你要順便買因為這個沒有辦法因為這個是一個商業機制他有需求的話他就沒有辦法對不起喔時間到了沒有那個他還可以繼續講喔召委可以這樣子喔"},{"start":6172.541,"end":6175.904,"text":"院長請尊重我們這個答詢的一個規則當委員已經結束他的發言然後離開的時候也請院長尊重這樣子的一個議事規則謝謝院長我就跟國國博物院院長這種院長都還要來跟委員吵架現在民進黨的行政官員是怎樣啦"},{"start":6198.563,"end":6211.833,"text":"主席我都跟你鞠躬我要下去了然後他還要說我不能保證是不是所以院長請尊重我們這個教文裡面我們這個答詢上面的規則謝謝謝謝好謝謝葉委員謝謝院長好我們接下來我們請陳秀寶陳委員謝謝主席請院長好院長"},{"start":6229.414,"end":6249.645,"text":"院長早安院長首先我先請教我在報道上有看到說我們故宮有規劃在5月的時候會在南院展出針、喉椅、邊中那針對這個部分我想請教一下這個邊中的展示展出它是屬於文物嗎?"},{"start":6253.028,"end":6274.626,"text":"他是一個複製的文物那以故宮你們專業的來看待這樣子的展出他是一個他是複製的文物那他會進展廳來做展覽嗎他在不進展廳他在那個公共的服務區在售票區的前面的一個端角"},{"start":6275.751,"end":6277.534,"text":"在不是在展廳裡面對在二樓的大廳那這個我有聽說這個編宗他是可以實際的來演奏的嗎"},{"start":6287.815,"end":6308.984,"text":"基本上來講的話他雖然是一個複製的文物可是是一個高仿的複製文物所謂高仿的複製文物的話不只是形製編製仿真他連他的聲音他的音力都是一個一個對比出來的所以基本上來講的話他是被認為現在仿製的一個"},{"start":6310.144,"end":6334.105,"text":"院長請教我們這個這個紡織的這個這個邊中他在展出這個期間有有沒有規劃會演出有他固定的話他會有兩場就是說每年會有兩場演出那期間的話他還要不定期的來做檢視所謂不定期來做檢視的話跟"},{"start":6339.209,"end":6352.918,"text":"院長我這邊再請教您關於這一組編宗我再一次請教您它跟你們故宮自己所保管的所展展覽的文物差別在哪裡"},{"start":6354.52,"end":6355.04,"text":"院長,我這邊的..."},{"start":6379.341,"end":6398.263,"text":"院長我在這邊我的問題我再重複我想了解說對於這一組你們會不是你們的但是來你們這邊展出的邊中跟你們自己本身故宮你們的會展覽的文物它的差別"},{"start":6399.264,"end":6421.853,"text":"它不是文物它是仿製的文物那而且它是可以用來實際演奏的那它放在它不是進展廳它是放在你們二樓的大廳的一個通道那我是不是可以解讀為它是一個非文物的一個展示但是可以算是一個實際上可以演奏的一個裝飾甚至是一個藝術品呢"},{"start":6423.894,"end":6451.028,"text":"因為當初跟那個傳譯中心在談的他就是一個教育展示的推廣活動教育展示的推廣根據傳譯中心的話他們其實要推廣的是音樂所以這一套基本上來講的話是作為樂器好了 院長那我懂得您的意思就是說他並不是你們故宮本身自己的文物的展覽他是一個在傳譯中心他們所要推的一個"},{"start":6452.469,"end":6476.58,"text":"演奏的一個因為它傳統音樂中心它就是會探討到不同國家族群然後甚至說中國大陸﹖所以這一次的展出這個編中的展出並不是你們故宮本身去展覽一個房品它是跟傳藝中心一個合作合作的是一個展示一個可以實際演出的一個"},{"start":6478.035,"end":6479.957,"text":"這並不是故宮本身展覽的一個紡織的文物"},{"start":6495.675,"end":6503.781,"text":"來再來院長這邊我要請教您過去在香港故宮成立的時候香港故宮這邊有曾經放話說要跟我國的故宮來合作展出但當時本席也詢問當時時任院長的五院長當時故宮的意思是說完全沒有接受到這樣子的訊息"},{"start":6515.29,"end":6535.006,"text":"但是中國對於我國故宮的想法跟打算其實好像都從來沒有停歇目前中國好像兩會召開在兩會召開前有中國政協提出說要加強中國故宮與我國故宮的合作以促使加深交流等等那我這邊想請教院長"},{"start":6537.308,"end":6551.682,"text":"這位中國的政協還強調說兩岸的故宮博物院原來是一家那一院兩地是因為歷史的緣故那院長這樣子的講法您身為我國故宮的院長您有什麼看法跟態度"},{"start":6553.263,"end":6564.453,"text":"我想歷史它的脈絡基本上來講的話我這邊就不再去談論但是要跟那個兩岸故宮合作的話基本上來講的話我們會審慎來考量"},{"start":6569.278,"end":6583.429,"text":"因為牽涉到的問題非常多因為故宮基本上來講的話作為一個國家的博物館那我們還是要依照政府的兩岸關係條例相關的內涵來進行一個交流合作"},{"start":6583.909,"end":6601.525,"text":"委員長本席在這邊要強調其實近年來中國對我國的文化的統戰一直都沒有停歇那即便中國利用各種的不同的管道或程序要來跟我國的故宮來接洽本席希望說故宮必須要堅守你們該有的態度跟底線這個必須要堅守你同意嗎"},{"start":6604.651,"end":6611.237,"text":"為什麼我會先強調中國的態度?因為本席接下來要請教三個會期教育委員會這邊有質詢故宮關於中國盜用故宮土黨的問題那當時故宮有提出訴訟不會姑息那這個部分請問進展如何?"},{"start":6621.038,"end":6632.694,"text":"基本上今年2月我們已經委託律師然後透過一個資料的彙整然後把資料送到大陸地區的地方法院由他們來處理"},{"start":6633.985,"end":6634.946,"text":"故宮去年11月的時候有辦理一個博物館開放授權與AI"},{"start":6652.461,"end":6652.681,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":6676.596,"end":6677.538,"text":"會不會採納會不會是我們故宮未來的選項之一"},{"start":6690.575,"end":6691.575,"text":"院長您這邊的疑慮同時也是我們這邊所擔憂的"},{"start":6718.063,"end":6733.171,"text":"我先也要提醒啦,針對中國他蓄意的惡意的這個作為我們沒有辦法阻止但是如果有考量說要委託其他機構的話也必須要考量說中國的部分他們比較特殊的這個政治跟法律的因素必須要考慮評估"},{"start":6733.951,"end":6763.951,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":6765.051,"end":6792.624,"text":"我想司法委員扣押的話是一個行政院的政策就是我們還依照這個政策來進行就對於雙方的文化交流的話我們要確保故宮的文物出國緩緩無遺的狀況之下我們才會進行所以現在捷克的司法委員扣押基本上來講的話他們眾議院已經通過現在送到參議院我們會希望說等待他的一個順利通過然後讓"},{"start":6794.405,"end":6799.869,"text":"兩國的一個展出可以順利的來進行好 謝謝院長本席這邊以上提醒我們要加深國際間我們這些民主盟友跟我們國際的關係我也熱見說可以故宮是成為實踐的第一步那故宮的這些收藏品在國際間是享譽盛名所以未來如果有更多的機會可以有跟其他國家合作也希望我們故宮可以更積極的規劃最後在這邊本席要請教"},{"start":6820.543,"end":6835.675,"text":"在故宮的報告裡面有提到說你會持續辦理改箱違規的這個業務那根據故宮過去自己的聲明在113年開始呢會自行製作文物包裝盒來改善包裝那接下來也會逐步的進展成"},{"start":6836.015,"end":6862.551,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6862.813,"end":6891.938,"text":"而RFID的部分就是有關文物典藏管理的一個數位掃碼的這個南院的話完成建置和完成測試那北院的話是以那個七七庫房來先進行那至於改箱違規的話113年就是我們今年開始要進行製作文物包裝那我們也迎聘了專業的人員從英國回來他現在在做規劃之中我們希望說114年起是真的可以進行這樣的一個工作"},{"start":6892.338,"end":6918.147,"text":"好,那本期也希望說我們接下來也會有進行修復計畫的說明會那針對故宮這邊有心將我們產品的收藏環境、參訪環境來進行改善呢本期非常的支持但是希望故宮針對相關人員的待遇是不是也應該拒禁那也希望我們故宮是持續的以國際級的博物館一直這樣的姿態一直走在前端希望我們故宮可以繼續努力謝謝好謝謝委員,謝謝委員指教"},{"start":6921.568,"end":6938.941,"text":"好謝謝委員還有謝謝院長那我們就是在第9位葛如君委員之完畢之後答詢完畢之後我們就先暫時休息5分鐘好不好好那我們現在先由第7位的張雅琳委員我事先預告所以讓後面才會知道好好那麼有請院長謝謝謝謝"},{"start":6948.801,"end":6954.091,"text":"總委很早好謝謝喔那欸這什麼他自己按的沒有反應欸對哪裡啊"},{"start":6960.882,"end":6979.314,"text":"首先因為剛剛其實大家都非常關注就是說我們那個故宮身為一個台灣重要的一個博物館也是世界級的一個博物館那其實是我們台灣作為文化外交一個非常有利的一個武器那我查閱您過去的發言是有提到說你希望可以促進國際的交流打亮故宮這個招牌"},{"start":6980.234,"end":6999.867,"text":"也有說博物館今年是博物館的觀光旅遊年可是我們從這個數據你可以看見到我們國際交流的次數其實是一直持續的在下滑撇除我們前面那兩年因為疫情的影響但是我們到2022年之後我們的這個國際交流還是一直持續的在下滑"},{"start":7001.297,"end":7026.794,"text":"那這樣子要如何去拓展故宮的國際知名度呢?也沒有辦法讓我們國內這麼多優秀的專家學者的博物館軟實力被世界給看見那再來我又看了一個數據就是我查了一下世界博物館的一個人潮數字大家可以看到左邊這個是大英博物館右邊是羅浮宮大家可以看到他跟2022年大英博物館已經他的人潮已經回到2019年的現況那這個2023年的時候抱歉"},{"start":7031.977,"end":7054.404,"text":"在羅浮宮的部分跟2022年相比他們在2023年已經成長了17%我算過這個數字基本上就是回到2019年的水準了所以世界都以人潮回來了那台灣的參觀人數還是持續的在只有過去的一半所以我想問問院長就是說我們對於這樣子的人潮我們有什麼樣的具體的做法"},{"start":7057.09,"end":7078.955,"text":"基本上來講的話就是博物館的話就跟觀光旅遊是接軌的因為以整個國際的觀光旅遊來講的話回到最多的話當然是英國、法國、美國、日本像這些大國的話他們的人潮回流的速度觀光開放的速度會比較快"},{"start":7080.396,"end":7094.41,"text":"台灣基本上來講的話因為入境的人目前的數量還比較低所以我們有時候故宮是依賴國外的旅客為主所以這個部分回流的確是比較慢"},{"start":7098.247,"end":7115.631,"text":"我幫院長想了一個想法 去年底的時候我看到一個新聞我們台北登上了法國的勒索關鍵字 這兩個國際旅遊網站上面法國人非常喜歡來台北 而且他們中外文化探索"},{"start":7116.591,"end":7126.218,"text":"我們在2020年的時候東京奧運曾經有規劃要去出展但是當時因為疫情那這一次我們去巴黎奧運有沒有剛好搭上這陣熱潮要去參展呢?"},{"start":7128.014,"end":7156.295,"text":"基本上來講的話我們會有一個展覽在明年去凱布朗利博物館但是2024年的話原來是一起在2024年去可是因為疫情的關係所以讓兩邊的協商都慢下來對那所以巴黎奧運我們有沒有這個參展今年有沒有沒有好那我想問一下就是說我希望就算時間有限就是在國際交流的這個部分具體的人潮回升的這個部分我希望院長可不可以在兩個禮拜給我一些說明跟規劃"},{"start":7158.016,"end":7178.428,"text":"雖然我們對外的交流是變少但是我也看到院長非常努力的把世界帶回來台灣所以在這幾年其實有在規劃這個李公林展那據我所知李公林的展品是散落於在世界各地有在台灣美國跟日本那我知道好像也有在跟這些場館去做交流了對不對"},{"start":7180.5,"end":7204.541,"text":"這個部分的話基本上我們在持續進行當中所以有像陳理委員講的就是消息很靈通都是國際重要的那個李光麟的作品所以已經有跟美國跟日本交流了對嗎?我們持續在進行之中但是李光麟還有一個作品是在中國故宮這個部分我想要請教一下我們是不是已經也開始做接洽了?"},{"start":7206.068,"end":7209.346,"text":"中國故宮部分我們目前沒有跟他們有什麼互動"},{"start":7210.097,"end":7238.997,"text":"好喔 那就是陳如剛剛那個秀白委員陳秀白委員說的就是說因為政協在就在這個月初喔他在這個政協安庭喔他在政協第14屆二次會議和第14屆全國人大兩次會簡稱兩會提出了一個建議書喔這邊就提到了兩岸原是一家喔而且甚至建立故宮通飄之讓海外旅客對兩岸形成統一的認知把藝術沾染了這個政治的意涵喔我希望院長可以"},{"start":7240.82,"end":7254.641,"text":"雖然在博物館的專業之下希望把這些優秀的作品帶回來台灣但是我希望院長一定要堅持在對等的交流而且要堅持我們台灣的主權 這個院長可以嗎"},{"start":7255.86,"end":7279.338,"text":"我想跟大陸的交流的話基本上來講的話第一個兩岸關係條例我知道 院長我只要想要確認說您可以堅持這個台灣維持台灣的精神第二個司法免扣押那基本上來講的話我們跟大陸的故宮的直接的交流其實還要更審慎的去討論因為目前來講的話是看不到在那個所謂的"},{"start":7282.274,"end":7294.98,"text":"經濟進展繞台的情況下是看不到這樣的一個契機了解謝謝謝謝院長那再來下一個就是說因為我過去在民間一直在推動就是兒童友善那我也非常高興的看到就是過去故宮其實有參與兒資院兒童參這個諮詢的會議那也邀請我過去的團體那"},{"start":7300.743,"end":7303.747,"text":"我看到這個新聞是2018年我們甚至去串聯了台灣15個博物館一起來打造親子友善但是呢我從這之後我就找不到任何的新聞了所以我不想說這個聯盟實際上還有在運作嗎"},{"start":7318.646,"end":7331.015,"text":"這樣一個聯盟的話基本上來講的話是一個倡議倡議之後的話各個管都在辦理所以所謂的這個聯盟的話是不是有實際上存在的必要的話基本上來講的話應該是大家可以"},{"start":7338.507,"end":7358.004,"text":"好,了解。謝謝院長。就是其實院長我必須說,因為其實這幾年故宮在邮校友善這一塊真是做得非常優秀。我自己都受惠良多。那這部分也要非常感謝院長跟所有全體同仁的努力。那但是我希望這不要只有故宮好,然後其他的博物館難以與時俱進。我希望我們應該要一起來打造一個兒童友善的博物館。"},{"start":7358.964,"end":7385.682,"text":"我也想提供一個建議就是國際兒童友善博物館聯盟他們其實是每兩年他們就會一起來開工作坊跟研討會一起來討論如何讓博物館更兒童友善所以我也希望就是說故宮一方面可以走出去跟大家有更多的實質交流也希望可以擔負起台灣領頭羊的任務帶著台灣的博物館一起共學一起共好讓我們的博物館可以讓孩子真正走進去我們的藝術殿堂欣賞這些藝術作品這個部分"},{"start":7389.004,"end":7406.182,"text":"院長我們可以做得到嗎那個跟委員報告一下就是基本上來講的話就是故宮都有參加博物館的一個聯誼的活動比如說518國際博物館日的話我們連會參與然後另外的話教育部主導的"},{"start":7407.203,"end":7407.703,"text":"我們會來評估。"},{"start":7431.357,"end":7443.858,"text":"好那這部分基本上就是希望就是說可以帶著大家一起共學共好那就再麻煩院長了那這個再來下一個就是說還是一樣兒童有效的一個觀展環境"},{"start":7446.217,"end":7466.093,"text":"從這兩張照片我們可以看到就是說我們可以看到這照片裡面這個我們的字幕的位置其實是在一個比較高的位置大概是在人的頭部這個位置那其實呢我們可以看這是國外日本的或者是歐洲他們其實都有在講我們應該要創造一個兒童友善的觀展環境"},{"start":7466.653,"end":7487.935,"text":"他的視線位置應該落在90到110公分這樣子小孩比較看得到那我知道我們有學藝中心那我這個是想要跟提個建議啦我們會後也可以再詳細的討論我們是不是有可能有一些真正的藝術品可以讓他降到這樣子的高度讓孩子可以真正的是欣賞這些藝術的作品這件事情我們是不是可以來討論"},{"start":7489.036,"end":7512.748,"text":"跟委員報告一下故宮目前的展櫃跟未來的展櫃設計的話我們都有採取通用設計讓幼兒盡量都可以從80的高度開始的話我們讓他們可以更方便的欣賞到這些作品所以目前已經是在規劃中了是嗎所以我們未來的展館現在南院的話基本上來講的話都是以80起跳"},{"start":7513.7,"end":7541.811,"text":"那我們臺北的部分呢預計什麼時候會完成這件事情呢臺北基本上來講的話只要是新的空間的展覽規劃的話我們都會依照這個標準但是因為如果說要把所有的展廳通通改的話那變成是一個比較大的變動對我們基本上只是要求我們是不是有一些可能兒童會喜歡的作品如果在做這個展廳的規劃的時候我們往這個方向沒有問題好的那謝謝謝謝院長今天的回覆謝謝"},{"start":7542.971,"end":7543.412,"text":"致謝張偉,有請院長"},{"start":7561.264,"end":7566.168,"text":"委員長去年故宮北院參觀人次超過155萬那其中本國的旅客佔了53.9%那外籍旅客佔了46.1%那其中韓國旅客最多有36.6%日本排第二27.5那港澳中國跟其他地區加總才7.5%"},{"start":7586.526,"end":7602.86,"text":"迎接新的英明的到來許多人都會許下新年心希望我們故宮當然也不例外作為對2024的展望 院長你曾表示說北院希望今年能突破200萬人次南院要突破100萬人次南北院參觀的人次加總希望也達到350萬人次為目標請問院長是不是這樣 你有沒有信心"},{"start":7613.368,"end":7615.529,"text":"我們希望南北院能成為台灣文化觀光發展的雙引擎帶動全台博物館觀光量能的拉台"},{"start":7634.913,"end":7659.403,"text":"另外本席認為同樣值得注目跟鼓勵的就是從2018年就開始推動故宮國寶出遊區這個專案這個專案讓故宮有機會進一步和臺灣本土歷史還有它的文化脈絡做對話跟地方政府攜手合作讓文物可以在全國各地去展出"},{"start":7660.583,"end":7688.1,"text":"此次我們共同見證台南四百的歷史時刻故宮典藏最高人氣的翠玉白菜來到我們台南景深千逢難載故宮國寶在台南展出之列小小宣傳一下這一波展期就到3月10日大家要看要快喔故宮身為台灣博物館龍頭是一座國際知名博物館"},{"start":7689,"end":7709.352,"text":"無論是新年新希望或者是說我們對於觀展者的經營跟開發又或者故宮國寶出遊區這樣專案的辦理這些作為我們除了是對故宮自身定位與角色的尋求外相當程度我們也是代表台灣展現在國際舞台上的態度"},{"start":7710.674,"end":7717.806,"text":"故宮點藏的是全人類的珍貴文化資產因為管理以及維護這樣的資產讓台灣有機會能夠跟各國進行交流"},{"start":7724.428,"end":7745.202,"text":"這是身處所謂我們在這個國家縫間努力創造國際空間的台灣不可或缺的暖實力所以本席真的非常關心這個跨國博物館合作的問題那在實行前其實有跟辦公室有跟故宮做過初步的討論那知道說像今年9月"},{"start":7746.002,"end":7760.541,"text":"我們就跟法國的博物館有合作的計劃要在北院舉辦特展那在明年的9月我們也會跟捷克的國家博物館合作在布拉格舉辦故宮百品以及故事的展覽"},{"start":7761.923,"end":7780.856,"text":"所以未來我看故宮跟國際博物館的合作的計畫是一連串的預期一定相當的精彩跟豐富那談到跨國博物館的合作我們就必須來進一步思考相關的倫理以及剛剛提到的故宮呈現在國際舞台上的態度"},{"start":7781.616,"end":7809.538,"text":"那我想我們先前就我跟進一步請教如果我們要進行跨國博物館的合作我們必須要考量什麼樣的面向那故宮給我們的回應是說第一跨國博物館合作的前提是要司法的保障也就是確保文物借展之後能夠安全返台第二我們要評估它的經濟效益那再來我們要確保文物的運送這個展覽過程中的安全性"},{"start":7810.479,"end":7831.328,"text":"故宮對於文物安全與完整性的重視這一點其實相當重要本席也非常認同不過我們目前跟我們合作的國家並沒有無所不用其極要打壓台灣的國際空間而且高舉對台灣侵略意圖的國家換句話說假設跨國博物館的合作一旦遇到了中國"},{"start":7832.208,"end":7834.149,"text":"關於加強兩岸故宮博物院交流與合作的建議"},{"start":7851.454,"end":7874.726,"text":"他的論述是說兩岸故宮兼務著兩岸同胞講好中國的故事要傳遞文化認同感的時代使命並且希望讓海外客群對兩岸故宮形成統一的認知最終也希望達成所謂經台深度融合與交流再來就要請教院長了"},{"start":7875.97,"end":7890.288,"text":"第一是否認同中國假借文物之名行文化統戰之實把博物館當成是政治工具的行為那第二我們台灣故宮有沒有促進台灣人對"},{"start":7891.63,"end":7918.55,"text":"中國產生認同感的使命第三這個故宮文物到底是屬於中國還是屬於全人類的文化資產最後要請教的是那如果遇到中國這樣單方面的放話那並提出種種要跟我們故宮做交流這樣的計畫那我們到底有沒有實際的作為來捍衛對等跟尊嚴避免其他國家對台灣跟中國之間的關係有誤解"},{"start":7921.792,"end":7938.071,"text":"院長請您回答臺灣是一個自由民主就是既有非常深厚文化軟實力的國家那當然兩岸的文化交流有助於兩岸民眾的相互了解基本上來講的話"},{"start":7939.753,"end":7940.614,"text":"委員長蕭宗煌"},{"start":7960.589,"end":7964.77,"text":"在兩會提出這樣的建議的話基本上來講的話當然也是拋出一個議題"},{"start":7983.695,"end":8011.373,"text":"所以是不是這樣就統戰的話基本上來講的話我想我們也不見得說一定要這樣把他指涉可是他是明明就很清楚的講說這個要透過這樣的一個合作要對這個兩岸故宮形成統一的認知這是他這個這樣子產出的故宮的文物基本上來講的話是屬於台灣這一塊土地為什麼呢因為在"},{"start":8013.135,"end":8019.585,"text":"在那個行政的跨國上面的話這批東西的話是屬於中華民國政府"},{"start":8020.681,"end":8041.426,"text":"我們每年的話要跟財政部去報我們的財產總量那基本上來講另外有文資法管制所以在這個法令涉及的範圍裡面它都是屬於中華民國這是沒有問題屬於中華民國也屬於全人類的文化資產它當然也是全人類的一個文化資產"},{"start":8044.907,"end":8071.801,"text":"謝謝院長的說明我想我們要繼續努力那特別是我剛提及就是說我們怎麼樣把我們故宮那麼漂亮那麼有文化這個意義的這些這些文物透過這個與國外的交流然後讓故宮國寶出遊去讓更多的國家看到這個屬於全人類的文化資產在台灣的這些文物有機會看到這些我想"},{"start":8072.441,"end":8087.019,"text":"故宮繼續加油,OK,謝謝謝謝,謝謝委員好,謝謝,謝謝院長那接下來我們是請葛如君委員我還是說一下,葛如君委員質詢完畢之後呢我們先休息5分鐘,剛剛已經特別預告了,謝謝,不好意思"},{"start":8110.751,"end":8112.132,"text":"主席有請故宮博物院院長蕭院長"},{"start":8132.884,"end":8149.031,"text":"院長早這是我首次進行故宮業務的質詢首先想要向您請教我的辦公室前幾天向故宮索資但是一直等到昨天下午資料才陸續回覆據瞭解也有不少委員遇到類似的情況"},{"start":8150.991,"end":8168.917,"text":"根據我們的理解也收到一些消息說是因為您週二整天待在立院無法簽合公文的緣故雖然中午休息時間據稱您還特地趕回故宮來處理公務但應該有不少的立委辦公室跟我們一樣都非常晚取得資料想請教一下院長這個我們數位的時代"},{"start":8172.578,"end":8193.366,"text":"處理公文應該有不少的數位工具可以來使用加速公文的流程讓立院與故宮的往來可以更加的便利剛剛我也在交通委員會質詢了唐鳳部長有關電子簽章的這個推行想請教部長未來這個公文可不可以更快是難道一定要撤碼回故宮蓋玉席所以才花那麼多時間嗎"},{"start":8195.142,"end":8195.162,"text":"議員報告"},{"start":8206.872,"end":8207.332,"text":"謝謝,不好意思打斷"},{"start":8230.08,"end":8252.35,"text":"我想下一次我想公文的往來希望可以更有效率同時也呼籲希望可以導入電子簽章電子公文還有相關的公文的往返也希望給我們一個更好的一個時間的癒化院長您是博物館學者也是經營博物館的專家我十分的期待用科技壓宅的角度來跟您互動交流也希望透過今天的質詢我們今天彼此都能夠有收穫"},{"start":8253.09,"end":8256.213,"text":"回顧10年來故宮的參觀人數從2014年540萬人到2016年最高峰614萬人2021年參觀人數降到10年來最低只有115萬人降幅達到81%這10年來的參觀人數可以說是巨大的變化"},{"start":8274.006,"end":8292.134,"text":"我們可以看到你們有提出來希望2024年故宮達成350萬參觀人數可是我們可以看到一二月的人數加起來是45萬人如果我們來這個等比例放大來幫你們推估的話大概可能無法達到甚至可能也沒有機會重返或突破2016年的614萬人想確認一下院長這個350萬人的參觀人數的目標還在嗎614萬人有沒有機會突破"},{"start":8300.989,"end":8303.35,"text":"謝謝院長我想我們都一起來努力不過我的態度相對的比較悲觀不管是350萬還是600萬因為近年來"},{"start":8317.641,"end":8342.208,"text":"博物館要吸引民眾入館參觀的難度可以說是越來越高由於這個open gallery open library open museum的世界趨勢我們來看下一張博物館的館藏被認為是具有公共屬性的資料因此被期待能夠加速更加速多元的開放給公共使用目的是促進知識的流通還有大眾的福祉"},{"start":8343.768,"end":8369.094,"text":"相信不遠的將來民眾只要使用電腦手機平板甚至是我手上這一台是Apple剛推出的Vision Pro所謂空間運算的裝置也就是下一個世代的電腦很可能會人手一台每個民眾都可以隨時隨地的穿越任何場域參觀任何的博物館想請問一下院長您認為這樣的現象會促使民眾更有意願親自到博物館看展"},{"start":8369.674,"end":8393.992,"text":"還是民眾透過智慧穿戴裝置看完了就不再想去博物館參觀了我想如果是數位是一個工具的話那基本上來講我們當然期待是觀眾透過數位工具可以了解博物館的內涵之後然後可以親身到博物館裡面去親自這些文物當場去檢視這些文物我想這是我們的期待好很好謝謝我想我們有一致的看法"},{"start":8394.492,"end":8398.795,"text":"不過我想這個其實還是需要經過很多的努力除了擁抱數位以外還要這個做得很好我們看到根據資料2022年故宮曾經與8位原創插畫家合作開發新型態的文化創意生成品NFT我想這個NFT其實是數位商品這個算是一種轉型轉型的規劃方案更多元的"},{"start":8421.79,"end":8441.611,"text":"過去故宮的電商賣了五千多萬還是算不錯那希望還是持續的精進加強這一台這個Vision Pro民眾只要眨個眼就可以買商品了如果眨個眼買的商品如果是數位的商品連運貨都不用但是呢我們2022年的相關的合作跟Rutex這個NFT"},{"start":8442.472,"end":8465.073,"text":"成立故宮精品NFT品牌商城利益良好啦我作為阿宅我還是給予鼓勵但是推出的12款NFT商品只賣出了6款收入只有23.6萬新台幣故宮在NFT這一塊做得早給予鼓勵我是支持的但是做得不夠好如果做得不夠好就沒有辦法達到虛擬世界愛上這些文物的人呢"},{"start":8465.633,"end":8483.974,"text":"來到我們的實體世界來看我們來看幾個例子2021的9月東宮博物館跟幣安NFT合作以NFT的形式來拍賣重量級館藏的數位複製品此次拍賣籌集的45萬的BUSD也就是幣安美元他甚至還接受虛擬貨幣的購買"},{"start":8486.056,"end":8511.181,"text":"2020年9月大英博物館推出了第一個NFT系列拍賣了200張以日本服事會大師葛氏北齋作品我們看一下那個葛氏北齋的作品那三張很漂亮這個浪潮這個電腦看起來可能這個對文化還在吸收當中那不只賣得非常的好甚至在7月進一步和這個所謂的元宇宙遊戲平台Sandbox合作"},{"start":8511.801,"end":8528.314,"text":"大英博物館授權他們來做這個NFT的收藏跟沉浸式的體驗空間我想這個接下來應該要一起來努力希望想請教一下院長關於這樣的一個數位的沉浸的NFT的計畫院方有沒有想要再持續的精進的計畫"},{"start":8530.406,"end":8533.589,"text":"謝謝院長我想我還是鼓勵院長你們做得早但是我想也要做得好"},{"start":8556.127,"end":8573.474,"text":"確實你們有開放相關的文物但是我手上這一台Vision Pro一隻眼睛就是4K兩隻眼睛加起來就是8K但是我們目前故宮用CC0授權的中低階圖檔CC0還不錯但是只有100萬畫素100萬畫素是非常非常的低中階圖檔600萬畫素是CC by name4.0的授權約40萬張但是這在現在的數位內容比起來這解析度實在太低了"},{"start":8584.938,"end":8592.179,"text":"後續有沒有考慮進一步的開放中高階甚至高階的圖檔來供民眾自由免費的禁用使用修改與分享"},{"start":8593.124,"end":8620.431,"text":"跟委員報告我們原先就是有規劃那個中高階2000到3000的一個土檔但是因為前面的所謂的土壤外流事件所以這個部分的話我們現在就暫緩那另外一個原因就是因為如果我們把這個中高階的土檔40萬張PO上去的話那個loading會很慢所以一般的民眾的話不見得都做專業的應用如果要用專業的應用的話可以跟直接跟故宮聯繫然後要有高階土檔"},{"start":8621.071,"end":8638.639,"text":"謝謝院長 我想精神我們都是一致的 兩點建議 第一點希望能夠有開放騎乘 請問有沒有開放的騎乘現在只有暫緩 希望可以趕快來讓我們知道騎乘 同時我想開放才是最重要的 故宮豐富的館藏對這個世界來說非常重要"},{"start":8639.079,"end":8658.568,"text":"如果我們不讓更多的人認識他看到他那就沒有人喜愛他沒有人喜愛他大家就不會來實體世界來參觀最後一個問題我想請教一下院長最近應該有注意到AI的運用與博物館開放授權的議題因為故宮在11月的時候去年11月我們有做很多研究謝謝你們"},{"start":8662.05,"end":8683.285,"text":"目前生成式的AI可以說越來越進化前幾天OpenAI還做了一個短影片生成器叫做 Sora這個能夠依據各種的咒語來生成流暢的影片但是由於生成式AI的訓練跟產出需要大量的素材來產出這些作品的內容某種程度也是一個我們作品分享給全世界的方法"},{"start":8683.945,"end":8705.454,"text":"故宮如果能夠更加的開放數位文物的檔案就可以被深層式AI運用來幫我們宣傳想請教一下院長故宮目前對於深層式AI的運用以及博物館開放授權的議題究竟立場怎麼樣我想一昧的暫緩也不是辦法是不是有針對深層式AI對圖檔的運用有沒有一些演繹相關的規範解析度應該還要再提高這塊想聽一下院長的意見"},{"start":8710.596,"end":8730.267,"text":"跟委員報告,我們這一次在台南美術館的故宮展覽裏面就有AI的餐飲室的作品我們把富春山基圖跟賽尚、莫內他們的作品用一個融合的方式去呈現,這是故宮的一個嘗試"},{"start":8731.388,"end":8749.486,"text":"另外的話在推廣教育上面的話我們也是希望說用AI融入STEM的方式然後推廣到那個基層的學校謝謝我想故宮一直都走得很前面但是也希望能夠走得很好我想今天的質詢我們主要聚焦在OpenGLAM的浪潮之下"},{"start":8749.946,"end":8765.13,"text":"姑宮如何來調整營運模式跟營運策略同時也希望針對深層式AI數位開放能夠更多元的擁抱這個世界的趨勢很高興可以跟院長來交流希望我們未來能夠就更多與博物館有關的數位議題來多多進行討論謝謝"},{"start":8778.695,"end":8789.582,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9177.028,"end":9177.468,"text":"吳佩奕委員蕭院長"},{"start":9195.561,"end":9210.667,"text":"委員長在我開始質詢今天題目之前想要先跟您釐清因為我剛聽前面的委員在質詢當中有幾個事實上面似乎看起來是有落差第一個是說有委員提到過去幾年我們故宮來自港澳中國的旅客有近五成那您說這數字是錯誤的所以實際上數字以去年近幾年來說是多少大約幾成"},{"start":9225.666,"end":9243.032,"text":"基本上來講的話因為我手上沒有精確的數字我不便這樣直接的回應可是五分之一基本上來講的話兩成的話是一定有但是五成的話基本上來講的話是因為他"},{"start":9244.524,"end":9267.29,"text":"亞洲的客人混在一起的話其實沒有辦法精確辨認那兩層的話是因為團客團客是很清楚從大陸來的這個是沒有問題所以五成是一個可能是高於事實的數字對以目前來講的話還是有入客雖然沒有開放兩岸的觀光但是還是有的入客我們自由行還是有的"},{"start":9268.25,"end":9279.914,"text":"剛剛還有一個資訊是由委員來提問說我們的語音的系統也就是我們的導覽機的標案以我們語音導覽的系統的標案來詢問你我們導覽人力的配置而事實上我們故宮的導覽人力有沒有委外由廠商來進行"},{"start":9292.355,"end":9306.775,"text":"基本上導覽的話是由故宮的導覽志工來進行 我們的導覽人力是以導覽志工那另外我們配有導覽機 所以這個表演事實上是導覽機的表演 不是導覽人力的表演 是嗎"},{"start":9309.958,"end":9316.241,"text":"導覽機和系統建設包括文案的翻譯所以院長我要跟您提醒一點就是我認為我們故宮需要來加強跟委員的溝通因為像我剛剛上述我只是列舉兩個其實是客觀數字客觀資訊"},{"start":9332.54,"end":9335.363,"text":"應該是不需要在我們質詢的現場來進行討論在這裡我們要跟你們是進行也許政策的辯論觀點的辯論像這種基礎的資訊我想我們要加強溝通讓委員能夠了解好不好接下來呢"},{"start":9348.54,"end":9353.882,"text":"這個我在網路上面有看到我們故宮有跟我們台灣的嘻哈歌手韓森有一個合作那這個韓森呢也是在我們文化部有補助的大嘻哈時代選秀出來的歌手我認為這是一個很好的嘗試那事實上近幾年我們故宮有"},{"start":9368.988,"end":9373.95,"text":"新故宮計劃裡面除了軟體的行銷之外它一開始其實也是硬體的擴建整建的計劃同樣我想要在這裡請問院長因為我們故宮要來做擴建跟整建當然我們是政府機關文資法的符合這是基本要件我們都是公務員但是我們之所以要做整擴建主要的目的是什麼"},{"start":9394.517,"end":9418.572,"text":"一開始為什麼我們要做這個整庫建的計畫是我們目前故宮的建築體有什麼樣的需求來需要改善跟委員報告就是那個故宮北院的部分因為它經過5次的整建就是說它從那個正方形然後變成長方形變成摸字形總共經歷5次所以它的整個空間的"},{"start":9421.153,"end":9422.674,"text":"露水嚴重 管線老舊 這會造成我們博物館有什麼樣的問題"},{"start":9441.169,"end":9444.952,"text":"對,因為呢在我進來立法院之前我就看到我們立法院其實非常的關心我們故宮文物保存"},{"start":9469.332,"end":9488.59,"text":"因為我們發生過幾次文物碎裂的事件所以大家都非常關心所以我認為這個擴展建的工程是必要的而且是急迫的因為依照我們的博物館法我們的收藏保存維護博物館的基本功能是博物館法對我們的要求"},{"start":9489.631,"end":9493.393,"text":"這一點我也希望我們故宮在對外的說明上面還有社會的溝通上面要說清楚告訴我們的社會大眾為什麼今天我們納稅人必須要來支持故宮的整擴建計畫因為目前我們的建築體的條件對我們的文物保存事實上它在功能性上面是已經不符合需求了"},{"start":9513.041,"end":9515.804,"text":"這一點是迫切的因為我們希望我們故宮這麼珍貴世界級的文物在我們故宮裡面可以被妥善的保存這個漏水等等的問題必須要盡速的解決這一點我希望我們故宮能夠來加強溝通說明可不可以來改善"},{"start":9531.734,"end":9551.941,"text":"對 這個部分的話我們剛剛辦了兩場的說明會我們會跟那個社會各界來管換來說明好院長一樣是我們委員會也剛剛有很多人在關心我們的觀光尤其我們的人次院長我請教你我們故宮作為博物館這個觀光是我們博物館必要要達成的目標嗎"},{"start":9554.742,"end":9566.049,"text":"這是新故宮計畫我們兩項三項子計畫中的最後一項計畫就希望透過一個文化觀光然後吸引更多的國際人士來臺我們要達成觀我們要促進觀光我們最重要的目標是什麼在我看來我們新故宮計畫叫做公共化因為公共性也是博物館法給予我們的要求"},{"start":9578.636,"end":9605.563,"text":"所以我們覺得的確我們故宮富有促進觀光的責任但我們不是在要求你們單純為了提升產值那是因為故宮以台北來說過去我在台北市議會我們常常也希望我們的市政府可以多來跟故宮合作為什麼呢因為故宮是國際旅客來到台北必造訪的前五大景點之一我們都一直希望故宮能夠作為一個觀光的引擎"},{"start":9606.443,"end":9635.683,"text":"當我們國際的旅客好不容易來到台灣好不容易來到台北因為他們想來故宮參觀那我們希望他在故宮參觀之後能夠也接連著來認識我們台北在地我們在地的文化資源等等的所以我看到我們的新故宮計畫裡面除了硬體的改建之外的確也有軟體方面行銷觀光等等的資源但是我們目前跟地方政府合作的計畫包括了哪些呢院長"},{"start":9637.244,"end":9655.237,"text":"跟地方政府合作的計劃當然一個就是跟不同的風景區或是機構他們去做聯名譬如說像101、順義原住民博物館這些都有一個聯名的機制然後跟台北市政府的官傳局我們也有合作"},{"start":9656.317,"end":9676.826,"text":"另外一個的話就是說我們大家很期待所有的觀眾趕快回到故宮可是觀眾沒有辦法一時回到故宮的時候我們現在做的階段性就是把故宮的展覽往外送就是現在目前來講的話有台南美術館然後有那個客家文化六堆文化中心然後接下來的話會這個禮拜的話會到那個宜蘭"},{"start":9680.828,"end":9683.109,"text":"在我看到你們的這個公共化計畫裡面有部分的計畫內容你們是希望能夠跟地方政府來合作的那我從議會過來所以呢以我經驗來說其實我認為我們故宮能夠跟地方政府合作的項目還包含了很多"},{"start":9710.418,"end":9737.855,"text":"例如說明年度我們是不是有一個希望可以來跟日本來合作這個休學的這些學生能夠來到故宮是不是有一個這樣的計畫去年我們跟那個觀光使合作就是遊輪的一個只要遊輪到我們就開館的一個計畫那基本上來講的話就是雙方認為成效都不錯那今年我們想跟他們合作的話就是有關日本的休學旅行休學旅行就是畢業旅行"},{"start":9740.877,"end":9760.391,"text":"對,像這個來吸引外國的學校的休學旅行來到台灣其實也是各個地方政府每年教育局都在推廣的計畫除了日韓以外,包含東南亞的國家我們也都是每年都有洽談合作的所以呢,我認為我們故宮我們的主業是博物館但是我們富有要帶動"},{"start":9761.952,"end":9782.383,"text":"地區甚至全台灣觀光量能這樣子的任務所以我認為我們應該要借力使力各地的地方政府因為都有觀光局都有觀傳局有交通局有交易局有文化局每一年這些地方政府的局處他們也都在努力促進觀光我們故宮要做的角色應該是整合資源"},{"start":9784.284,"end":9784.304,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":9804.156,"end":9814.283,"text":"我認為在台北市我們能夠加強的合作那如果有需要洽談的部分我也很樂意來進行這個幫忙所以我希望說我們故宮是不是能夠在兩個月就台北市我們來加強跟地方政府合作就我們原先希望來以故宮的量能帶動觀光的這個目標來進行合作能不能可以兩個月之內給我一個初步的評估"},{"start":9830.794,"end":9849.846,"text":"好,我們跟那個臺北市觀傳集的話其實我們已經開啟合作了去年的那個故宮博物館之夜海灣故宮其實就是跟觀傳集合作的這非常的好那我也希望說未來有更多的合作讓我們故宮尤其北院區在臺北市能夠帶動更多的觀光發展好不好好,謝謝"},{"start":9858.918,"end":9880.799,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝院長院長在下一個質詢之前我可不可以先請您稍微做一個澄清請問一下南院有沒有副處長這個職缺跟委員報告南院是有副處長的職缺可是目前沒有補是好謝謝我只是要確定剛剛我們在質詢台上面老師我沒有講清楚是好我們互相把這個問題釐定清楚謝謝院長謝謝"},{"start":9883.865,"end":9884.966,"text":"林倩琦委員蕭院長"},{"start":9904.211,"end":9918.507,"text":"委員長很早辛苦了不知道您還記不記得院長跟本席是在什麼樣子的場合下認識的很早了從那個高雄文化高雄縣文化局局長那時候"},{"start":9920.322,"end":9941.817,"text":"所以我對你的印象非常深,是我人生很難忘記的一個人我們第一次,請大家不要多想,我要講的是接下來這才是重點第一次見面其實是在中華民國文化盃的那個週球比賽上"},{"start":9942.93,"end":9960.853,"text":"然後在賽前當然我有同仁已經跟我做一些提醒但是我還不信邪我認為我的整個乒乓球的球技可能沒有那麼差結果沒想到就在你淡定的身影下把我殺得落花流水故宮的高手更多我相信因為在賽前我的同仁們告訴我說"},{"start":9961.875,"end":9982.615,"text":"通常你只要碰到博物館的大概我們都沒有機會了因為他們至少能夠相對比較正常的在早酒晚午的正常上班的情況下那我們這個文化局的大概通常都是不僅要早酒那可能晚酒都還不夠所以呢我後來就非常清楚的認知了這一點所以我對您的印象非常深不過您秋季真的很好"},{"start":9984.716,"end":9997.541,"text":"您記憶也很好 我也很樂見說在這樣子的一個情況中您還能夠很穩健的這樣升遷實在是我們文化界的一個很重要的事情"},{"start":9999.232,"end":10018.599,"text":"接下來我想請教一下院長不曉得您覺得我們故宮最重要的文化商品除了翠玉白菜還有肉形石跟毛公鼎以外在我們印象中最夯的有什麼樣子的文化商品"},{"start":10021.526,"end":10047.991,"text":"故宮基本上來講的話有所謂人氣國寶人氣國寶的話就早期的所謂的什麼故宮三寶那時候教科書上有的就是翠白菜肉形石然後還有毛公頂但是故宮自己認定的北宋三寶的話是宦寬的西山行李圖李堂的萬貨送風跟郭熹的早春圖這三張作品的話其實在繪畫史上的話是無可匹敵的一個重要"},{"start":10048.431,"end":10065.785,"text":"所以那個院長講的應該是韓話那我們知道我們都選過這個故宮三寶那研究員的故宮三寶跟一般民間認知的故宮三寶雖然有落差可是都有它的價值但是呢一般大家可能在這幾年來印象最深的不知道院長有沒有聽過鄭知道了"},{"start":10068.807,"end":10088.927,"text":"有,因為這是屬於文獻列的檔案資料所以它作為一個文創商品是賣得很夯是沒有錯是的,因為我也帶學生去過然後大家也搶購這個東南亞的學生也都搶購這樣子的一個商品那不知道您曉得它的產值大概有多少嗎因為這是院內的資料"},{"start":10091.209,"end":10114.81,"text":"好了就算不知道也沒關係我的PP上面大家看到那個膠袋正知道的膠袋大概200塊那據說兩年內至少已經成功的賣出14萬套所以這樣子的一個龍井在2013年左右讓我們看到了原來文化商品的這樣一個行銷或者是產值是可以達到某一種讓我們期待的"},{"start":10115.836,"end":10118.198,"text":"姑公有沒有像這樣子量能這麼高的文化商品讓大家有記憶的?"},{"start":10139.555,"end":10163.308,"text":"這是一個延伸性的直接由我們的典藏的圖檔資料裡面延伸的可是另外一種延伸商品的話其實在去年引起熱潮的是庫克柏綠克熊就是說基本上來講的話是排隊購買的商品不好意思什麼熊啊抱歉在好沒有關係沒有關係那我想聽起來是一個很可愛的商品對是一個公仔"},{"start":10164.368,"end":10190.61,"text":"對,那是一個公仔但這個部分呢本席沒有像這個正知道的這樣子的一個聽說所以那這個部分我認為正知道的這樣一個很棒的商品在這已經邁入第11年那我覺得這個部分的投入大家可以再省思所以這個部分是不是可以請這個故宮讓我們的文化商品"},{"start":10191.618,"end":10218.788,"text":"能夠將故宮的很重要的華夏文化的價值傳到全世界跟委員報告一下其實我們現在在進行另外一個就是說衍生性的就不見得直接從商品裡面出發所以我們昨天的話譬如說跟台灣的幾家的那個茶葉的廠商然後我們在合作要建立共同的品牌這個部分的話就是聯名品牌的話其實是我們"},{"start":10221.089,"end":10248.302,"text":"簡單的講話叫做目前獲利的主力謝謝講到這個我覺得不僅您好忙那個連我想故宮的同仁都很忙那茶這件事情我們從小就接觸了當然可以是我們在地很重要一項文化那我們知道在南院也把茶打成一個主題但是我覺得大家都非常的辛苦以故宮這樣子一個國際性的定位你們的業務其實還蠻辛苦的"},{"start":10250.263,"end":10272.761,"text":"所以我就耳聞那個院長好忙跟我們同仁好忙但是這個很辛苦的院長我知道您真的很忙但是在這個過程當中我知道您忙的其實是有某一些意義但是這個外傳的跟本席所了解的可能有一些落差我在這邊基本上期待院長這邊可以做一個釐清因為我聽到有人說這個您好忙然後忙著要當文化部長"},{"start":10277.905,"end":10304.409,"text":"您覺得您要怎麼回應我這個問題?報言就是我原來跟陳院長說我要退休陳院長說既然你要退休表示沒有後顧之憂能不能去故宮那邊看看有什麼問題幫忙處理一下我既然答應院長就是故宮是我最後一個公職我不會再有其他的考量"},{"start":10304.969,"end":10326.715,"text":"我想文化界會對你很有期待啦那既然是您最後一個公職我相信一個歷史定位一定對你非常的重要那我也非常的期待當然有些東西會令你覺得很兩難所以我是那個耳聞那個故宮目前的一個狀況大家對你這樣子的一個未來的走向"},{"start":10327.515,"end":10347.79,"text":"有一些傳言那既然您在這邊已經談到如果你目前的規劃故宮會是您最後一個工作但是我期待我相信文化界對你都有期待那未來事情我們不知道但是我在這邊對於您要有一個歷史定位那我猜想我確定抱歉我確定故宮"},{"start":10348.59,"end":10358.626,"text":"成立100年的這樣一個計畫我今天早上在才拿到的這個業務報告裡面沒有看到我想是不是院裡面這邊可以告訴我到底是在哪裡"},{"start":10361.475,"end":10382.036,"text":"故宮百年計畫基本上來講的話它是一個歷程它並不是一個計畫或是一個特別的只是說在我覺得它是蠻重要的啦像我們建國百年也會慶祝然後故宮百年應該非常的重要而且以故宮的脈絡來講這個"},{"start":10383.758,"end":10408.083,"text":"其實故宮最主要就是北京故宮的東西通通都被我們搬來到台灣那所以請問一下故宮的這個100年你們打算慶祝100年還是一甲子應該這樣講就是1925年北京故宮成立然後1965年台北故宮成立然後2015年那個嘉義故宮成立所以一個是100一個是60一個是10"},{"start":10410.784,"end":10432.882,"text":"聽起來很完美啊都正好是一個能大肆慶祝的時間所以我必須提醒故宮在第一筆成立的經費我們都知道羅浮宮也是因為先有人捐贈然後開始因為法國文化大革命之後產生了這樣一個博物館的風潮所以第一筆經費其實我必須幫國民黨講些話"},{"start":10435.144,"end":10448.86,"text":"這是我們蔣介石委員所捐贈的那是在100對不起那個100年前那個故宮也是你們故宮博物院網站寫的10月10日那也是我們的國慶日成立故宮博物院然後公開展覽"},{"start":10449.861,"end":10465.588,"text":"然後後來我們在一甲子之前來到了台灣那我想請問一下那這一個部分不值得慶祝嗎大家講了很多新故宮計畫可是在這樣一個歷史的時間點我們是不是應該正視這件事情那故宮100年"},{"start":10467.429,"end":10492.627,"text":"我深切的期待這個一百年是一個故宮很重要的一個里程碑那我們可以透過這樣一個機會包括我剛才聽到那個院長跟我們本黨的委員在談我們跟國外的交流那如果你們捷克的這個交流目前已經忙得這個這麼灰頭土臉的話那請問故宮一百年尤其是對於華夏文化我作為一個原住民來談談漢人的文化那這個"},{"start":10496.11,"end":10513.07,"text":"這個部分是非常重要至少對我而言我覺得應該是非常重要的那我看不到這個100年也沒有看到任何跟100年有關的相關資訊那這對我們來講對華夏文化來講情何以堪所以我期待那個故宮不要讓這個包括南院"},{"start":10514.211,"end":10540.861,"text":"斷裂了華夏文化我知道茶在台灣是很重要本席其實以前一直學茶對茶的文化有長期的關注所以當然在南院呢我們展示了茶然後以這個宗教為主以整個的主題其實是有點脫離了華夏文化的一個脈絡所以我期待是不是故宮南院不要斷裂了華夏文化的歷史作為一個原住民這樣對你們講我想應該大家不用再吵了嘛吼那"},{"start":10541.861,"end":10554.112,"text":"最後我早上聽到很多人都對你有一些責難那我在這個這幾年過程當中包括您在這個教育推廣上我都覺得其實是真的應該幫你說一句話所以你是不是有可能我們這個"},{"start":10558.656,"end":10573.087,"text":"故宮的指導委員會在107年莫名其妙的也在我們的朋友可能沒有注意到的狀況當中就被廢止了那結果大家的責難通通到你的身上那你這麼樣一個難得在這樣一個動亂情況當中能夠繼續持續穩定升遷的"},{"start":10578.891,"end":10604.068,"text":"我相信文化界都有很大的期待所以你不要一個人擔負這個責任好不好可不可以恢復指導委員會讓大家一起來共同決策那其實很多事情你有你的專業我們知道博物館跟美術館的專業但是呢恢復指導委員會其實是可以讓大家一起來參與故宮的決策那你也不用一個人擔那我相信你對這個地方的心是絕對非常的誠意的所以"},{"start":10604.708,"end":10626.938,"text":"如果沒有辦法用恢復這個指導委員會的一個行政命令的話我可能就要提出這個修改故宮組織法所以這件事情是一定要做的那我不希望你一個人擔太多因為在未來的幾個月當中我相信你應該會有一個很重要的歷史地位所以我期待我知道第一件事情對你很兩難但是作為一個原住民"},{"start":10627.938,"end":10653.986,"text":"這個華夏文化成立這個故宮成立100年的慶祝計畫今年我們一定要看到要不然在預算的部分我們可能就必須要有很大的溝通接下來不要一個人擔負這樣一個責任那你這麼棒的一個藝術家跟行政管理的官員那期待恢復指導委員會讓我們一起來創造故宮100年的龍井好嗎那最後祝福你大滿貫"},{"start":10656.466,"end":10678.333,"text":"謝謝委員我們會來演繹謝謝委員好謝謝我們林委員果然是乒乓球打架好情緣很好謝謝謝謝院長那我們謝謝我們接下來我們請郭育晴委員主席好有請院長好院長院長辛苦了好郭委員早"},{"start":10684.189,"end":10703.762,"text":"我想故宮是我們非常重要的文化的一個聖殿但是其實在整個所有的去年我們可以看到就是雖然由國內國旅其實已經開始回復到就是疫情之前的一個盛況但是我們故宮可能還要再加把勁這個等一下我們待會再談那我先來談一下就是關於我們的新故宮計劃他是一個修"},{"start":10709.466,"end":10732.688,"text":"改善整個所有的修護的一個空間當然其實文物對我們來講是最重要的資產當然在2022年我們也很遺憾的就是在文物當中其實我們有部分就是很少很少的一個部分可能因為它本身在搬運或者是在保存或者是在整個所有的移動的過程當中可能產生了一些所謂的文物保存的一個問題"},{"start":10733.889,"end":10747.965,"text":"今年我們當然也聽說就是我們要改成所謂的以物以和改成為以香為貴這樣子我自己在做修正藝術我其實對我自己本身的作品其實要再加上保存"},{"start":10748.626,"end":10752.45,"text":"請問我們是不是有一個比較明確的保存古物的一個安全的標準我們制定的作業流程又是如何那今年我們有沒有做這方面的一個全面改善"},{"start":10772.971,"end":10799.413,"text":"跟委員報告就是故宮發生了所謂的破瓷事件之後我們把所有的典藏管理的規則跟庫房進出庫的規則通通做了一次的翻新然後就是加強它的整個管理的機制那改相違規的部分的話或是一物一合的話在新故宮計畫裡面雖然葉列提到可是沒有很具體的做法"},{"start":10799.793,"end":10821.047,"text":"我到了之後去盤整整個空間因為改箱違規的話它會增加很多空間以目前來講的話故宮的山洞故房還有1000多箱的紋路在裡面如果改箱違規的話現在的空間是沒有辦法容納的所以我們現在在那個山下的行政園區新蓋了一個行政大樓"},{"start":10821.687,"end":10846.538,"text":"未來會把那個跟典藏文物不相關展覆不相關的同仁都牽到山下來辦公然後把山上的空間地下室的部分盡可能改為標準庫房那這樣的話就可以讓這些山洞裡的文物然後可以得到一個標準庫房的一個待遇那對整個文物的保存的話基本上來講的話會有比較好的一個"},{"start":10849.699,"end":10852.22,"text":"目前來說的話我們在去年徵聘了一位同仁從英國回來因為他有擔任博物館的典藏庫房的經驗所以現在"},{"start":10866.544,"end":10896.544,"text":"﹗"},{"start":10897.325,"end":10912.256,"text":"另外一個部分就是關於谷物修復的這樣子的一個工作我想這個我們整個所有在故宮裡面將近快要70萬件的一個文件應該這麼講就是谷物還有包含一些典藏"},{"start":10913.136,"end":10931.943,"text":"目前聽說只有4類的修復室那這4類的修復室當中其實又包含了我們的修復師的人員的配置那我們知道其實修復的人員因為這方面的專業人員我相信其實一定都是上上之選當然也經過一些很嚴格的挑選"},{"start":10934.524,"end":10942.692,"text":"我想這個人員的養成並不容易但是我們看到我們的修復師其實總共才16人是這樣子的一個編制嗎?"},{"start":10945.06,"end":10964.762,"text":"基本上這樣的編制在國內的博物館裡面已經是最大的編制因為國內的博物館他如果說有辦法配置專業的修護師的話大概其他的博物館的話都不在五人制上所以故宮基本上來講在我們整個人力調配上現在目前的人數是這樣"},{"start":10966.487,"end":10976.499,"text":"他們一年當中其實要修復的都是將近快上百件我們可以從這樣子的一個表格當中可以看到光是在去年其實是修復了這個753件次是嗎?對"},{"start":10981.713,"end":10999.178,"text":"對 沒有錯 他平均的話就是一個人的修復數量的話是47件 所以其實有的文物修復或是檢視的話很快但是有的文物的話一修可能他的等待時間的話就是一兩個禮拜甚至上一個月都需要"},{"start":11000.038,"end":11026.808,"text":"因為我們大概知道其實我們整個所有的典藏的文物包含書畫、歷史文獻、紡織、玉器、銅器、瓷器還有其他的一些不同的材質他們有需要不同的一個專業的領域的修護師那目前台灣其實在這方面的人才的培養在大學裡頭相關科系的大概有哪一些我們是不是也從這個地方已經開始在著手這些修護師的一些培養、培訓"},{"start":11028.308,"end":11057.287,"text":"根委員報告就是表列裡面的話其實真正的國內可以培養修復人才的話是那個南藝大的博物館及古物修復研究所因為他真的培養出來的人才的話可以馬上進到博物館來使用其他的管所的所謂的文資的話大部分都是歷史建築或是古蹟方面真正的古物修復的話大概就是南藝大現在是最強的"},{"start":11058.207,"end":11083.693,"text":"另外 政修大學有一個修護中心 修護中心他自己培養的人才 基本上來講 擁有實務經驗 其實也是很強的一個團隊有 這個新聞其實我也有看到 只是我們沒有表列在其中我希望其實就是我們也鼓勵很多的我們的青年朋友們 如果能夠將來可以投入到這樣子的一個修護師的工作 其實是我們蠻樂見的 就跟教育界的結合"},{"start":11084.753,"end":11089.614,"text":"有沒有可能也跟國外的一些博物館的修護師或者是美術館的修護師有來做一個這樣子的一個比較平凡性的交流"},{"start":11115.276,"end":11141.005,"text":"基本上當然有啦就是我們有跟那個英國的諾桑比亞大學跟美國的德拉克拉瓦大學都有進行這樣的一個文物短期的就是一個教育研習訓練那另外的話我們跟那個日本的那個大阪市立陶瓷美術館也有請他們來協助我們做文物持拿文物保存的一個訓練"},{"start":11142.125,"end":11142.185,"text":"議長蕭茜茜議員"},{"start":11172.048,"end":11172.112,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11173.079,"end":11201.915,"text":"今年的目標我們當然是希望北院250萬、南院100萬然後總共350萬那後續的話我們希望細細的提升因為剛剛也有委員提到就是說新故宮計畫完成之後我們的目標值是800萬當然這個目標值的估計可能當時比較樂觀一點就從500萬加到800萬好像很快現在的話從我們最低的時候是11萬要到800萬是一個很長的距離"},{"start":11202.615,"end":11230.729,"text":"可是我相信故宮會超越我們原來的五百多萬的人次我想八百萬我不敢講但是新故宮計畫完成之後五百萬一定沒有問題其實我希望就是不是只有國外的這個訪客來啦其實我們在光是自己本身國內的很多的單位或者是學校的團體其實也能夠做更多的一些交流跟教育的一個工作讓他們去導覽我覺得這個相信也是對故宮是一些好事喔那"},{"start":11232.301,"end":11250.636,"text":"另外就是在跟國外國際接軌我們現在在今年預計跟哪一些國際的單位有所謂的互相交流跟借展的一個活動是目前確定可以被進行的今年確定了兩個展覽活動的話一個是北院放課雅保"},{"start":11254.119,"end":11268.155,"text":"華國裝飾藝術博物館跟故宮合作的大美部演另外一個在南院辦的一個沖繩夜的琉球海上"},{"start":11270.658,"end":11279.524,"text":"對,對,我們會跟法國跟日本的不同單位不同博物館交流合作好,但是在交流的同時也要注意我們的古物的保存"},{"start":11296.12,"end":11317.779,"text":"這是必要的一個條件好謝謝院長謝謝主席好我們謝謝郭委員謝謝院長那接下來我們請陳培宇委員謝謝主席那有請院長好院長不好意思我還是感冒有點嚴重請允許我戴著口罩謝謝院長謝謝主席"},{"start":11319.261,"end":11346.776,"text":"好,院長早安早那之前其實有非常多題目都跟院長討論過那我們今天蠻多事情的第一個是其實故宮近年來有非常多的計畫讓故宮不只是一個在山上的博物館做了非常多包含百萬學子悠遊博物館包含故宮遊藝司還有移動博物館的教具箱其實這些所有的活動我相信院長你一定非常清楚就是希望讓故宮的典藏故宮的精神故宮的文化"},{"start":11347.256,"end":11374.181,"text":"走進一般人的生活因為博物館要面臨的是所有的觀眾所以我覺得這些事情都非常的重要但是除此之外我們希望故宮可以繼續擴大辦理因為來到現在我們必須要把孩子們目前在學校遇到還有老師們在學校遇到教學的困境我想要跟院長分享108的素養導向課程核心的目標是希望老師可以協助學生發掘問題找到自己不足的地方然後嘗試解決問題這是所謂的素養課程"},{"start":11377.422,"end":11401.589,"text":"數量裡面絕對不會只有從學校從課本上來有更多必須從社會環境還有文化環境當中來那目前我們看到故宮有移動博物館教具箱這個活動可是我們看到相關計畫都只有局限在國中國小有沒有機會可以繼續開發內容讓它延伸到高中甚至是幼兒園擴大故宮的影響力這是第一個部分第二個我剛剛說其實學校老師還有"},{"start":11403.149,"end":11410.294,"text":"高中生國中生國小生他們都很需要認識故宮因為培養年輕的觀眾絕對是故宮很重要的任務所以有沒有機會協助老師辦理增能的課程或者是把相關展覽的內容結合你們有熟悉的學校課程然後讓老師跟讓學生可以在故宮專業的協助下讓他們在學校課程更加豐富"},{"start":11427.125,"end":11451.515,"text":"甚至走進故宮參觀所有的展覽之前孩子們老師們都是已經帶著準備好的現備知識走進故宮不知道這個部分院長您個人的看法是什麼的確那個因為故宮就像個大醫院什麼都要做從那個老的到少的那中間的話的確就是青少年的部分我們過去不只是故宮所有的博物館都漏掉了因為"},{"start":11452.435,"end":11468.834,"text":"大家都認為說那個國高中的話因為要升學所以就讓他們好好念書可是現在的觀念因為多元教學的一個情況已經改變了所以故宮為了處理這一塊的話所以我們成立了兒童暨青少年事務的推動執行委員會"},{"start":11469.855,"end":11490.776,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":11490.916,"end":11491.497,"text":"國立故宮博物院議員"},{"start":11514,"end":11537.023,"text":"這是我們目前都知道已經有的但是我們講的是尤其明年要面對故宮百年這件事情我們認為故宮可以做的更多所以後續我們也會希望除了剛剛院長您所說的要積極進行之外還有更多的事情我相信您剛說的我相信你也認同可以做更多尤其剛剛院長您講到那個親子會我就要跟您請教我們之前在去年的質詢就已經跟院長請教過"},{"start":11538.884,"end":11557.782,"text":"關於親資會委員成員的組成其實是大大的有問題當時院長您給我的回答是說你們可能認為兒童或者是國小生沒有辦法在這樣的場合上適當的發言甚至可能聽不懂你們在說的事情當時您這樣的回答我不知道你記不記得可是讓我印象非常深刻"},{"start":11558.402,"end":11574.724,"text":"但是你就承諾我們說第4屆親資會的委員的聘願程序你們會做一個調整我們看到今天的簡報裡面說課證辦理但是我很好奇你們目前的課證辦理真的把我們之前所提醒的關於未滿18歲兒童這個部分也一起納入了嗎"},{"start":11575.826,"end":11595.912,"text":"根委員報告未滿18歲的是有納入但是兒童沒有納入因為基本上來講的話我們經過評估就是說如果是納入兒童的話的確兒童在整個運作方面的話可能是沒有辦法好院長那我有知道我有答案你剛剛說沒有納入"},{"start":11596.152,"end":11597.613,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":11620.903,"end":11625.968,"text":"當作樣板我覺得這樣的話就沒有必要我覺得院長剛講到一個關鍵如果孩子們沒有適當的訓練跟學習卻是放進會議當中真的很有可能變成樣板而且我們也要必須承認目前確實很多行政機關會把小孩當成樣板但是如果經過適當的訓練跟討論跟學習"},{"start":11639.821,"end":11661.258,"text":"其實很多兒少參與在公共行政事務上院長你一定不知道有非常非常多兒少在各個領域各個行政機關的互動其實都已經有很好的表現甚至目前很多大人們的政策都是來自這些未滿18歲的包含12歲以上的兒童或者是國小端也都有我想要再次跟院長做善意的提醒"},{"start":11661.658,"end":11687.459,"text":"我國當時有簽署CRC兒童權利公約並且我們在2014年台灣已經通過兒童權利公約施行法這裡面提到一個很重要的精神什麼叫兒少表意權並不是說讓他在場合說說話就好這個表意權背後一個非常重要精神就是兒少他可以並且就影響他本身的事物表達他的意見跟權利而且是自由的表達"},{"start":11688.18,"end":11710.732,"text":"因此這個參與我們必須要說真的非常非常的重要當然可能在院長您過去的學術訓練或者是在您的生命經驗當中你可能沒有經驗過類似跟兒少溝通的經驗所以我可以接受你們說你們只是會議討論你們沒有檢討報告也沒有評估報告那是不是可以讓我們進一步的要求你們可不可以再一次去評估甚至"},{"start":11711.092,"end":11711.172,"text":"閱议人員"},{"start":11741.112,"end":11741.253,"text":"最後一個"},{"start":11748.539,"end":11774.051,"text":"關於百年大展我們之前也跟院長您請教過我們從10月份我們從9月份呢院長您來我們辦公室來拜會我們就跟你們提過10月26號的質詢也跟您說過故宮的百年大展必須要有公共化在地化專業化多元化跟國際化跟年輕化到11月29號預算提案的時候當時我們辦公室決定我們可以接受以預算組決議的方法會通過所以我們期待故宮會遵照辦理"},{"start":11775.171,"end":11801.062,"text":"可是我們看到1月份給我們的回覆我整個就是傻眼就是像這個梗圖一樣傻眼到想說為什麼經過三四個月還是一樣的東西不知道院長您手上有沒有你的同仁給我這個回文就在這裡就這樣兩張然後只是告訴我們開了三次會議可是對於會議的內容或者是具體的規劃所謂專業公共在地年輕國際多元這件事情到底故宮的想像是什麼"},{"start":11801.482,"end":11819.005,"text":"我覺得大家都會非常非常期待看到那當然因為今天時間有限而且我猜想故宮可能還有很多事情正在進行討論那如果沒有保密的需求沒有不能先讓大家知道的可能性我們可不可以簡單請院長說明一下包含你們在書面報告中提到何謂故宮100"},{"start":11820.266,"end":11821.687,"text":"請問香港故宮展覽移過來展"},{"start":11847.833,"end":11863.084,"text":"我要說的是其實年輕人沒有不看展喔其實年輕人很願意走進博物館看展走進美術館但是我們辦的展有沒有足夠的吸引力吸引他們我覺得這個是一個很重要的事情那故宮百年這件事情大家所期待的不是看到一個"},{"start":11864.245,"end":11889.422,"text":"老舊的成科的故宮然後只是在把展做一個輪替但是到底我們背後的精神如何跟年輕人對話如何把專業化的精神也呈現出來從此呈現多元國際化公共化在地化其實尤其在地化也非常多立法委員有提到還有關於國際化所以這個部分是不是之後我們可以更加期待故宮的報告因為看起來在今天的書面報告還有剛剛非常多委員的質詢裡面其實我們都看不到"},{"start":11890.242,"end":11890.643,"text":"拜年大展會不會讓大家有點期待落空"},{"start":11908.023,"end":11928.137,"text":"應該不會來,因為跟委員報告一下就是說那個100年的話我們從那個管史然後從那個人物的專訪然後大四季然後一直到展覽的策劃包括文獻商品的規劃基本上來講都在討論之中那這個部分的話當然就是沒有錯我們沒有"},{"start":11928.997,"end":11930.178,"text":"接下來我們請吳春成吳委員"},{"start":11965.135,"end":11966.277,"text":"主席 院長好 請院長謝謝院長"},{"start":11974.193,"end":11999.969,"text":"國務委員早這個院長早辛苦你了我代表民眾黨在教文委員會那這個先說明一下民眾黨是一個講究務實理性科學沒有意識形態的政黨那院長呢這個也被公認是最沒有"},{"start":12001.141,"end":12028.591,"text":"政治包袱的故宮院長所以我想我們應該是可以很能對話的那從剛才這個看到這個很多委員可能對這個故宮對院長這裡提出的一些責難苛求我覺得這是非戰之罪其實這裡就是問題的核心"},{"start":12030.447,"end":12051.975,"text":"所以我是要來幫你的因為為什麼我們有一些核心問題一直不願意面對沒有談好這個核心問題就會有很多的其他問題所以就是我今天的主題是故宮藏品是屬於我們國家的資產嗎?"},{"start":12055.543,"end":12062.612,"text":"請問院長當然是我們國家的資產而且還是世界全人類的資產世界是歸世界我講的是台灣的嗎?"},{"start":12065.42,"end":12089.365,"text":"是台灣的因為我們的財產的話每年都要跟財政部做財產的報告所以故宮這70萬件都是台灣的是很肯定很肯定的這一點因為這一點要肯定以後你後面的整個的經營宗旨目的經營的策略我剛剛看了整份的報告"},{"start":12092.079,"end":12101.711,"text":"其實我是有一點有一點替你們叫屈為什麼呢因為這整份來講其實就是一個博物館的報告"},{"start":12103.271,"end":12126.951,"text":"博物館的報告沒有到故宮國家的這種定位裡面談的不外乎就是網路官網要怎麼展覽倉庫要怎麼管理文物怎麼保管運用資源然後增加他的安全性這就是一個博物館這不是一個國家文化的一個經營者"},{"start":12132.591,"end":12136.058,"text":"這是叫低層次的技術層面的問題那這個技術層面是這個因為上面的定位所以"},{"start":12143.885,"end":12148.829,"text":"問題是,中華文化是我們的嗎?中華文化是我們的,那我等一下你再回答可以有兩種答案,一種是,一種不是"},{"start":12173.486,"end":12196.293,"text":"我先講如果不是的話因為這個跟我們目前文化部的定位好像有一點不太同目前我們台灣主體文化好像不太論述我們是在去中華所以如果中華文化不是我們的那故宮這些寶藏是從哪裡來的這就是外國的那是怎麼來的 是搶來的"},{"start":12200.017,"end":12227.057,"text":"那如果是這樣子的你如果是從這種角度來看那我們看到的故宮就很像阿里巴巴的那個洞穴一樣的就是哇很多的寶藏對不對要進去前還要先喊一個芝麻開門然後那個院長就是阿里巴巴了那裡面珍藏的西式珍寶那這些東西對我們來講是什麼意義是利還是弊"},{"start":12229.424,"end":12231.721,"text":"是利還是弊喔你會想喔"},{"start":12232.932,"end":12261.021,"text":"以前啊 這個大陸啊 很多大陸觀光客來台灣看了以後 看到我們故宮以後 甚感欣慰 為什麼 他們說還好你們把他搬到台灣來 不然的話 我們文化大革命的時候大概都把他砸壞了 所以他是感謝的 為什麼他會感謝 因為他那時候認為兩岸一家親嘛 對不對 所以放在你們這裡 他們不會在乎"},{"start":12263.442,"end":12285.156,"text":"但是我們怎麼看如果兩岸不是一家親的話那你現在14億的大陸人怎麼看故宮在台灣就是他們祖宗的寶物被你搶到台灣來了那這一個"},{"start":12286.226,"end":12286.927,"text":"這個就是從不是的角度"},{"start":12302.133,"end":12324.435,"text":"那我想故宮當然現在應該不是請問院長是是還是不是是中華文化是我們的嗎?中華文化的話是台灣文化中的一個非常重要的一個內涵跟源流這個是無庸置疑的那因為台灣在地的話我們也要尊重原住民族群"},{"start":12325.816,"end":12338.063,"text":"臺灣基本上來講的話除了中華文化之外的話還有原住民文化還有各種不同族群的文化甚至現在的新住民文化當然都是那中華文化的比重在多少"},{"start":12339.967,"end":12358.907,"text":"我不是科學家我沒有辦法計算因為文化的內涵的話沒有辦法用比重在我的管理的脈絡裡面的話那中華文化華夏文化的產品的話當然是在故宮裡面占最重要的地位"},{"start":12363.432,"end":12382.988,"text":"臺灣當然是一個綜合的文化吧不過中華文化應該佔了非常高的比重只是我們現在一直在兩岸對立當中也知道有這些所以在文化論述當中要把它去中化那凸顯臺灣的主體性"},{"start":12386.285,"end":12412.92,"text":"這兩個需要對立嗎?這兩個是融合台灣包括連大陸都認為你繼承了中華文化的正統那我們怎麼看?這裡就是故宮的定位模糊古不古、金不金、中不中、台不台這就是你為什麼會有那麼多困境的原因做什麼都不對白什麼都是人家都有意見"},{"start":12414.702,"end":12425.354,"text":"再來的話昨天的新聞教育部這裡有台美之間的優華語計畫那為什麼人家要來台灣學他來學語也來學文化"},{"start":12426.488,"end":12453.602,"text":"為什麼不去北京學那個自爭槍援的要學那種台灣槍國語我們的國語比較好聽嗎?不是是嗎?所以呢大家把台灣視為華人的文化中正民主的燈塔那這個的概念故宮是一個很重要的核心最後因為我的時間有限我在談的包括我要請問館長你是博物館長還是一個文化的傳承者呢你自己覺得呢?"},{"start":12455.382,"end":12470.087,"text":"我不是從政界出生,我也不是從協界出生我是一個行政出身的行政管理者所以對我來講的話我是博物館館長但我也期待成為一個文化的傳承者"},{"start":12470.532,"end":12480.685,"text":"所以目前你還是把定位自己是一個博物館館長的專業人士當作一個專業人士但是這樣子需要到一個部長級的職務來當博物館館長故宮的地位為什麼到這麼的重要"},{"start":12487.233,"end":12490.115,"text":"最後一個其實整份的這個報告就是技術面的業務報告你們沒有一個"},{"start":12510.385,"end":12525.53,"text":"借文化的高度、文化的戰略報告我要請院長可不可以提出文化交流作為兩岸和平對話的契機故宮可以扮演什麼交流,沒有什麼規劃"},{"start":12526.61,"end":12552.789,"text":"第二個問題是故宮能不能就文化戰略因為你這本都沒有文化戰略只有服務執行項目提出報告可不可以在一個月之內提出提出來這份報告到我們委員會來好報告委員我們嘗試努力嘗試看看但是是不是不要一個月我們三個月可不可以主席要三個月嗎因為"},{"start":12554.554,"end":12577.309,"text":"就由我們委員來決定那折衷一下好不好三個月太久了啦一份這個報告你們這個一個禮拜就可以弄出來了專業人士60年的觀音一個禮拜弄不出來啦不是啦這個不是60年觀音這個就是腦筋想一想就知道其實只要說實話就知道的事情因為我們不一定面對"},{"start":12579.65,"end":12580.33,"text":"我們接下來請范雲范委員"},{"start":12607.361,"end":12610.802,"text":"謝謝趙委有請院長來 院長 謝謝好 院長早安應該叫午安那今天的主題就是要跟您一起檢討我們故宮相關的無障礙參與規劃機制因為無障更有礙文化更平權那我想那個院長應該有聽過這個CRPD這個您知道嗎知道"},{"start":12638.67,"end":12651.503,"text":"國際的身心障礙者權利公約裏面就有講到確保所有人平等享有的人權基本自由然後相關的尊嚴等我們台灣也有身心障礙者權益保障法之前我們俊翰律師過世"},{"start":12658.03,"end":12658.27,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12677.113,"end":12678.374,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":12692.936,"end":12702.61,"text":"故宮一直在努力,因為故宮把友善共榮列為一個文化平淺的目標。您覺得離平等參與的話大概還要幾年?"},{"start":12709.807,"end":12720.994,"text":"您的努力以目前的速度努力,您講個數字好嗎?總要估計一下嘛因為社會的期待不一樣,它會以時計進,所以沒有那個年限的問題說一定會做好沒有說那個慢慢來欸,就是平等欸,那您估計要幾年?您如果有檢視過的話要幾年?"},{"start":12730.563,"end":12741.427,"text":"沒有檢視過沒有檢視過 這就是問題就是我們根據學者的研究英國的博物館就是說他們自己不管是大英不管是什麼就曾經有檢視過說他們通過相關的修法只有10年才能做到"},{"start":12745.948,"end":12760.361,"text":"表示他有在努力一個中長期計劃嘛那我們其實台灣就是沒有喔那伸賬權益又真的是刻不容緩那我們既有的法規就已經說要保障平等的文化的這個參與權喔那我現在先講兩個因為裡面伸賬權益我剛講的國際公寓有很多但是有兩點跟博物館非常相關的第一個"},{"start":12767.748,"end":12792.869,"text":"深藏者本人充分參與你相關的決策有沒有本人充分參與充分參與的意思是過半的人數第二個合理調整跟增加無障礙的軟硬體設施就你的展覽你的常態跟非常態展要合理調整那這邊是我們最近的記者會就是大家不分黨派都讚賞陳俊翰"},{"start":12794.45,"end":12812.635,"text":"律師的人權努力要繼承他的一致那我希望故宮就是就現在就把它做好那剛剛聽起來故宮那個院長您都承認沒有那個就是說檢視過所以呢我想故宮就是還沒有準備好我已經幫你回答了"},{"start":12813.715,"end":12831.409,"text":"因為故宮我們先不要講其他的博物館嘛我們故宮之前幾任院長都說我們是要做就是說我國博物館的最佳示範那你們都沒有準備好了其他的博物館我們就可以不用問了所以故宮這我幫你回答還沒準備好那個院長您同意吧"},{"start":12832.922,"end":12850.957,"text":"的確我們還有很多精進的空間那今天就是跟您一起討論如何精進那我先以就是我們了解到的有一個我最熟的博物館之前我跟你講過我在英國一年的時候剛好住在V&A附近我天天都去那裡因為他們是免費所以那是另外一件事"},{"start":12851.778,"end":12866.796,"text":"那它裡面這個V&A Museum它就有一個主管專責身心障礙與社會參與的這樣子的一個設計而且還有專門的Manager故宮沒有專人在做這件事吧"},{"start":12867.921,"end":12868.662,"text":"國外博物館的編制人力有多大?"},{"start":12896.935,"end":12911.31,"text":"我們故宮有多少專職的人?VMA有多少?基本上來講的話現在我沒有精確的數據我不敢講我們故宮有多少人您知道吧?"},{"start":12911.732,"end":12916.517,"text":"國立故宮總共預算的原額是489元"},{"start":12932.073,"end":12952.568,"text":"≥≥≥≥≥≥"},{"start":12952.808,"end":12970.878,"text":"這只是其中的就是還有更多的VMA它有觸摸專區就是如果你看不到的你可以來這個專區觸摸那我再講一個別的我們如果不講VMA大英博物館的話它有定時定點提供適合的古文物讓視障者可以觸摸"},{"start":12972.238,"end":12998.615,"text":"還有針對生長者還有可吸式的摺疊椅可以借用這個不需要很多錢嘛這個也都是可以做的所以呢參與跟多元我們就不講了比如跟生長團體合作定期辦專屬於他們的活動等等那這部分如果院長有興趣的話國內已經有人研究出來了我發現這個研究是10年前的然後跟現在的情況差異並沒有很大改善沒有很多"},{"start":12999.355,"end":13025.593,"text":"那所以我想詢問的是聽起來故宮我的答案已經看到了並沒有無障礙環境的整體規劃的機制嘛這個院長您承認嗎並沒有嘛你們偶爾會做一些但是沒有沒有專責的就是說專人負責也沒有一個定期的開會的這個制度設計更沒有因為這樣機制出來的中長期計劃吧院長是不是沒有"},{"start":13026.033,"end":13027.054,"text":"關於無障礙環境的規劃的確是沒有但是這個我們是可以"},{"start":13045.009,"end":13045.729,"text":"網站2.0版無障礙化"},{"start":13065.854,"end":13066.054,"text":"議員發言委員會"},{"start":13084.327,"end":13104.16,"text":"所以我想您剛剛這個部分就代表有一些但是真的沒有一個常態性的機制喔第二個那你們這個無障礙相關的規劃決策機制有沒有做到我想是決策機制喔不是說大家來今天給個意見有做到身障者過半的參與嗎決策機制就決定要怎麼做的"},{"start":13105.5,"end":13105.76,"text":"議員長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":13129.585,"end":13131.666,"text":"我們只是還沒有落實在所有的法規中"},{"start":13154.436,"end":13170.247,"text":"那所以這部分努力那我要肯定您剛剛講那個是沒錯啦故宮興建工程的確有邀身障者參與這邊這個照片的確有那就是那個無障礙的通道你們的計畫進行正月核定後"},{"start":13171.007,"end":13185.323,"text":"你們的確有邀請深藏團體參與座談那我也要跟你講深藏團體跟我誠心反映你們應該要在前置作業階段計劃核定前就邀他們了不是核定後"},{"start":13185.964,"end":13187.446,"text":"您剛講的東西的確有值得肯定那我要跟您講身障團體跟我辦公室的詳情跟反應"},{"start":13206.027,"end":13206.047,"text":"院長．"},{"start":13221.146,"end":13239.623,"text":"我想我剛剛已經跟委員回答過了我們馬上會就故宮的所謂的無障礙的一個機制進行一個檢討然後做出一個計畫出來那我很擔心你的檢討是一次性行為那因為時間到了我們就最後一頁所以我要求三件事第一個"},{"start":13240.143,"end":13268.764,"text":"你應該要建立無障礙環境的整體規劃機制你就算現在做不到專人你也告訴我你是兩年三年還是多久可以做到專人因為您是院長您是爭取預算是就是說做的嘛那可不可以你剛講人比你多那你研究一下你們人跟他差多少我們是不是等比例好不好那就是說你們跟他們都有交流嘛問一下他們手下多少人是做這個事第二個就是說如果有這個決策機制的話要確保身障者參與過半"},{"start":13269.625,"end":13270.686,"text":"請問院長幾個月內可以給我提出報告相關的規劃"},{"start":13285.225,"end":13285.745,"text":"接下來我們請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":13306.201,"end":13324.514,"text":"楊瓊瑛委員．楊瓊瑛委員．林德福委員．林德福委員．林德福委員．鍾嘉斌委員．鍾嘉斌委員．鍾嘉斌委員．謝一鳳委員．謝一鳳委員．謝一鳳委員．徐欣盈委員．徐欣盈委員．徐欣盈委員．"},{"start":13326.035,"end":13329.237,"text":"張家俊委員陳亭飛委員麥玉珍委員蘇巧惠委員鄭振淺委員邱志偉委員"},{"start":13355.292,"end":13376.563,"text":"蘇清泉委員蔡奕宇委員關於今天的會議我們做如下的一個決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或是相關的資料我們要列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":13377.583,"end":13390.951,"text":"對於委員質詢要求提供的相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡數以書面的方法來做一個答覆那報告委員會我們今天的議程處理完不現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":13414.754,"end":13415.835,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15700","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15700","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68573b8a2c1b37799c107777c324b69055f3be8d109af184be48831f324297c6f585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健康保險署、食品藥物管理署就「健保藥價調整，藥廠停產慢性病用藥之因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-07","start_time":"2024-03-07T08:31:26+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-4"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-07T13:13:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":16894,"委員發言時間":"08:31:26 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字幕組"},{"start":1716.887,"end":1729.598,"text":"好報告委員會出席委員已經達到法定人數現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年3月6日星期三9時1分至13時33分地點群賢樓801會議室出席委員陳金輝等15人"},{"start":1740.467,"end":1761.222,"text":"列席委員洪孟楷等21人．列席官員勞動部部長許明春等相關人員．主席王兆吉委員喻敏．報告事項．宣讀上次會議議事錄．決定確定．邀請勞動部部長．外交部勞動力發展署．衛生福利部．內政部國家安全局就我國開放印度移工．對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊進行專題報告．並備質詢。．"},{"start":1765.185,"end":1784.795,"text":"本次會議由勞動部部長報告後．委員蘇清泉等24人提出質詢．均經勞動部部長．外交部亞東太平洋司副司長許書智．及衛生福利部長期照顧司司長祝建方．及各相關主管等及其答覆．委員王洪維及陳冠廷所提書面質詢．列入紀錄刊登公報．"},{"start":1785.675,"end":1814.737,"text":"決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其鎖定通過臨時提案四項宣讀完畢好請問委員會上次議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏之處若沒有的話我們議事錄確定那本日會議議程為邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健保署、食品藥物管理署就"},{"start":1816.003,"end":1822.127,"text":"那我們現在介紹今天在場的委員及列席官員陳昭之委員林月琴委員王振旭委員陳金輝委員那我們接下來介紹官員衛福部"},{"start":1844.384,"end":1861.059,"text":"剛進來蘇清泉委員那接下來介紹列席官員衛福部薛瑞元部長中央健保署石崇良署長食藥署吳秀美署長好那接下來我們就請薛部長進行5分鐘的報告"},{"start":1881.341,"end":1894.308,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生本部今日受邀到委員會這邊來進行專案報告,個人深感榮幸以下僅就本部執行健保藥價調整及藥品停產的原因作為"},{"start":1896.269,"end":1916.591,"text":"的因應作為提出報告,進行各位委員指教。現行的藥品支付制度是根據《全民健康保險法》規定由特約醫事服務機構根據《全民健康保險藥物及服務項目及支付標準》所規定的價格向本部健保署申請藥費。"},{"start":1918.112,"end":1941.1,"text":"那健保署透過定期調查各個醫事機構的藥品實際的交易價格取得藥品市場的交易價格那並且依據調查的結果將醫藥雙方議價的結果反映在藥品支付價格的調降以控制藥費在合理的範圍來準決健保費用的支出"},{"start":1942.761,"end":1968.158,"text":"從102年起本部每年辦理全民健康保險藥品費用分配比例目標制也就是所謂的第一梯今年第一梯的藥價調整金額是55.3億元調整的時候已經考慮到基本藥物的品項還有條件的幅度、基本價的保障以及"},{"start":1969.079,"end":1975.806,"text":"藥品供應情形等因素檢討的藥品一共有14000項其中有9500項沒有調整只有4500項的藥品調整調整的品項數是從102年來時是第一梯級那是最少的一次近年來因為"},{"start":1991.26,"end":2017.431,"text":"疫情、二污戰爭、鴻海事件、全球藥品短缺等因素．增加藥品穩定供應的不確定性．國內也因應解封、免疫負債等因素．呼吸道跟腸胃道傳染病的病人增加．如流感、COVID-19、腸病毒等．使用藥需求增加．為了保障民眾用藥的權益．"},{"start":2018.672,"end":2037.243,"text":"我自101年起逐步健全藥品短缺處理的機制包括完善法規的管理、建立通報案件的評估機制強化短缺資訊的傳遞等等對於個別藥品短缺的事件"},{"start":2039.585,"end":2046.853,"text":"結條供應藥品與通報的機構還有公布替代藥品的資訊公開徵求專案輸入或製造並在112年7月委託藥師公會全面會"},{"start":2055.176,"end":2068.394,"text":"協助藥局間的藥品調度112年8月啟動流行性疾病用藥的準備112年11月公告擴大必要藥品清單"},{"start":2069.335,"end":2074.179,"text":"113年1月建制完成藥品供應監測資訊系統並持續鼓勵藥廠增加原料藥籍來源及儲備並推廣國產學名藥健保署從112年起啟動健保藥價藥品政策改革規劃方向包括藥價不偏離國際提升"},{"start":2100.131,"end":2127.084,"text":"提升學名藥的競爭力鼓勵在台製造新藥學名藥及鼓勵使用生物相似性的藥品以及加強健保新藥的收載提升病人用藥的可進性等等變同修正全民健康保險藥物幾乎項目及支付標準跟全民健康保險藥品價格調整的"},{"start":2129.125,"end":2139.489,"text":"作業辦法,針對外界關心的第一批事辦方案,未來也會邀請相關團體來研議,並凝聚共識之後來做調整。"},{"start":2148.446,"end":2166.828,"text":"隨著醫療科技的進步,健保逐年增加預算來加速引進新藥,提高民眾使用新藥的可進性,並透過藥價調整機制,讓健保有餘力收納新藥,確保健保永續,達到全民健康。"},{"start":2169.918,"end":2197.545,"text":"也另外著手推動健保藥品政策的改革．並嚴厲輔導、獎勵國內藥廠投入或擴充生產的措施．以達到合理調整藥品的價格．那扶植國產的學名藥．那確保民眾用藥權益的三顏．所以請大院各委員持續給我們指教及監督在這裡謝謝"},{"start":2199.005,"end":2222.98,"text":"好 謝謝部長的一個報告有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報那現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員會詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於三會前提出預期不受理"},{"start":2223.78,"end":2238.511,"text":"暫定10點30分休息5分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時提案如有提案請盡早提出以立議事進行現在我們就請登記第一位的委員陳昭之委員進行發言有請薛部長好有請部長委員好"},{"start":2253.547,"end":2273.262,"text":"部長我想請教分級醫療還在嗎?健保開辦29年前就開始規劃分級醫療到今天健保署的網站上還有這些宣傳分級醫療處兵好醫書、社區好便宜"},{"start":2274.642,"end":2291.402,"text":"但是分級醫療離事實越來越遠甚至遙不可及我想部長你也心知肚明只是不知道部長你是無心去改變還是無力去改變這個分級醫療本來就是在就是還在部長我為什麼告訴你它是還在嗎下一張"},{"start":2294.98,"end":2313.167,"text":"部長請你看這個示意圖健保開辦的時候1995年醫學中心13家區醫院48家地區醫院568家這是一個正三角形非常健康的醫療結構25年後醫學中心增加兩倍區醫院增加一倍半地區醫院腰斬了"},{"start":2314.395,"end":2316.917,"text":"這是什麼形狀?好我請部長來預測部長在10年20年後您覺得我們會走向哪一個部分?分級醫療少了最底層的一個基層的診所"},{"start":2327.086,"end":2330.207,"text":"我認為健保制度帶動了造成今天的狀況為什麼呢因為健保制度的設計它會誘引醫療行為也會改變民眾的就醫行為往下"},{"start":2358.083,"end":2370.444,"text":"部長,您選醫學中心還不夠多嗎?這一次你一口氣增加了三家醫學中心,引起很大的爭議加速是不是要限制這個是可以討論的"},{"start":2371.377,"end":2377.601,"text":"部長,您不知道一來往的設計是200萬人一家醫學中心嗎?好,你這次有很多的爭議,這有很多的爭議,請你再關懲署,延宕,這不是理由,延宕公布時間,本來在去年年底應該公布,後來到大選後公布第二個,你改變了遊戲規則,說沒有鑑別度,有差距,你沒考過聯考嗎?聯考同分的時候是比其他各位,你這還有差距欸"},{"start":2396.972,"end":2423.844,"text":"你增加了三家醫學中心你增加三家醫學中心你弱化了分級醫療你讓民眾負擔增加你讓健保點子下降你讓這個已經不足的護理人員重新二項的重新分配健保點子下降不是這個原因啦護理人員的這個缺少也不是這個原因啦部長請幾位系出同門全候任的這個重要人物捫心自問"},{"start":2425.205,"end":2438.895,"text":"究竟受益者是誰?一下子參加三家醫學中心臺灣醫務管理學會紅理事長說外服部此舉是模糊的排名概念是為了某些醫院某些體系的怕他們太沒面子了"},{"start":2443.151,"end":2468.216,"text":"藥價調整是有法源依據的它是應該根據市場的交易情形合理調整但是我要請問交易情形交易情形都是能力都一樣嗎?溢價能力都一樣嗎?臺灣400多家醫院的溢價能力都一樣嗎?當然不一樣大者恆大、強者恆強、弱者恆弱什麼叫合理的調整價格呢?每位醫師要是罹患高血壓都會吃麥優麥優15年來降了實現了兩成的藥價"},{"start":2473.275,"end":2483.642,"text":"萬物皆漲,唯有藥品該疊。各行各業,營業額增加,整個都是喜事。唯有藥費,整體藥費增加,說注定是悲劇。好,我們來看,藥價調整的目的達標了嗎?我們先來看藥價差這個問題。曾經在2016年,8年了。"},{"start":2497.495,"end":2522.435,"text":"監察院有過糾正案藥價差為離地明確的合理藥價差比率藥品核佳機制不足執行全民健保藥價調整機制效能不彰這個造成這個也是監察院的文字以藥養育扭曲了醫療生態你到底是要做這個藥價調漲還是實質組長說過這個藥品供應因素很多這個是矛盾的"},{"start":2523.476,"end":2545.433,"text":"但是我也要告訴你們藥費成長也不能單方面歸功於價格藥費成長至少還有人口老化癌重症病人增加通貨膨脹與物料成本提高研發成本提高研發的規格也提高了所以這幾年的這個藥價調降造成很嚴重的後果當然包括缺藥供藥的這個穩定性換藥第一線不斷的換藥這是不對的說法"},{"start":2548.075,"end":2556.843,"text":"你藥價一直調降,能夠維持品質嗎?你跟我講一下哪一個藥品質看力?我請問你,如果我年年砍你的薪水,你還能維持你原來的生活品質嗎?你跟我講說哪一個藥品質看力?你是專家我們來看藥價調整,下一個我們來看目的,藥價調整的目的有沒有達標第一個,縮小藥價差距部長你知道每年的藥價差有多少錢嗎?"},{"start":2575.462,"end":2590.523,"text":"差不多在四五百億左右啦部長不錯你還講出了一個數字我本來想問你是四百億還是五百億還是六百億還是七百億你大概知道我講話不是沒有根據的第一個他達到縮小要加他的目的嗎"},{"start":2591.67,"end":2596.451,"text":"沒有,好,這個沒達標,那個目的有下來,有下來結成了藥費作為給付新藥跟放快藥品給付的裁員抱歉,全台灣只有我有這個完整的數字我們的新藥等待其實越來越長我們的藥品給付是越限越嚴重、越限縮台灣只有台灣發明這個給付方法哎呀,只能用幾個月幾個療程,全世界沒有人這樣做的"},{"start":2614.276,"end":2641.414,"text":"全世界都用到這個要病情惡化為什麼呢?因為錢不夠我知道錢不夠錢不夠那社會委員的主張到底是什麼我實在是聽不出來下一張你是不要調藥價還是要調藥價我在第一張投影片其實有答案了但是來來跑這裡大家都說台灣人愛吃藥我不認為欸大家都在看那個百分比百分之二十五、二十六、二十七、二十八台灣人真的愛吃藥嗎不要比那個好不好整個專業費用服務太低了"},{"start":2642.515,"end":2662.639,"text":"一個扭曲數字翻譜那麼低然後藥品好像佔率很高結果是以藥養醫其實如果我們回到GDP藥品的GDP佔我們才1.1日本1.6南韓1.3如果我再把藥價差再扣掉的話當然實際上不會有這麼理想的狀況只是那0.7以藥養醫部長這個挖東牆補西牆東牆要倒了西牆還能撐住嗎"},{"start":2672.23,"end":2672.49,"text":"這個牆已經快倒了"},{"start":2687.49,"end":2696.899,"text":"這個以藥養醫是過去的這一個部分是比較多的那目前的藥價差是有在下降我已經告訴你藥價差啦你講的414大概是10年前的藥價差是有藥價差,仍然存在是沒有錯這兩張圖我要問衛福部我要問衛福部我一直在追蹤這兩張圖為什麼在去年之前臺灣的醫療衛生支出佔GDP都是6點多"},{"start":2710.971,"end":2738.187,"text":"突然間現在變成7.5這麼巧這麼巧在去年的大選有在野的總統候選人他要求我們把投資健康投資要提高提高到8%剛好你串出來就是7.5這麼多年都是6然後還來一個校正回歸96年到110年全部校正你放了他這麼久你突然間去做修正好一個校正回歸啊"},{"start":2741.92,"end":2747.344,"text":"請問你為什麼在算新藥新科技的財務衝擊時不能夠把這個新藥新科技帶來的可能的長照的費用減少也扣除呢這是兩標標準啊雙標啊請問你這個這兩個你這邊要算這邊就要算部長你不要跟我爭辯我在那個委員會29年好我們看最後一張"},{"start":2773.141,"end":2789.929,"text":"所以要告訴部長有29年錯的都還是錯啦告訴部長齁這個整個醫療支出的占比齁你要算6.1齁你要改成7.5都沒關係我只是要告訴你還是輸人家很多你7.5人家韓南還是9.7你算6.1說韓國是8%"},{"start":2795.905,"end":2819.592,"text":"所以這個是健康投資整個不足健康投資不足我知道部長是部長以上都要去負這個責任好嗎健康投資是不足但是政府還不承認健康投資不足好我們再看右邊管理呢管理有沒有適當醫院評鑑內幕重重分級醫療蕩然無存藥價調整慘不忍睹管理的不當這個要指出事實出來部長可能要根據這個診斷去參考未來怎麼治療怎麼進行好"},{"start":2825.973,"end":2833.421,"text":"健康投資不足、醫療管理不當請別把藥品當作祭品好,謝謝部長好,我們謝謝陳昭之委員的發言接下來我們請陳金輝委員進行諮詢"},{"start":2856.084,"end":2876.623,"text":"大家好先邀請部長跟小署署長好請部長跟署長午安好早安大家好今天先問一個全國家長都滿關心的議題啊因為早上家長群組已經爆了"},{"start":2878.022,"end":2898.821,"text":"這個相信大家早上都已經看到新聞了食藥署告訴我們大家說目前蘇丹紅的風暴不保證市場沒問題不保證市場沒問題變成我們的教育局在關心所有的小朋友教育局已經說三個月所以各位覺得三個月這樣子的時間夠嗎"},{"start":2901.142,"end":2923.358,"text":"跟委員報告,蘇丹紅這件事情其實是他本質是辣椒粉辣椒粉因為在國內的話,國人吃辣的習慣是很普遍的所以我沒有辦法說一下子把所有的辣椒粉通通禁掉是不可能,而中國那邊進口的辣椒粉是佔全部的80%"},{"start":2925.417,"end":2937.87,"text":"最近這幾家有問題的21家它佔了50%以上所以就必須要很細緻的去查還有5家還沒查到嗎?還沒查完啊?我們都還是繼續往下查"},{"start":2940.453,"end":2963.145,"text":"所以這個是必須要這樣做,因為你必須要確定它合格跟不合格,不合格當然就不准上市把它封存,但是合格你還是要讓它出所以署長會覺得3個月夠嗎?我們保護兒童3個月夠嗎?可以,我們會努力在這段時間完成好,那引起軒然大波,署長會覺得需要稍微跟大家道歉一下嗎?"},{"start":2964.953,"end":2985.569,"text":"我想這個跟道歉沒有什麼關係,因為我們都努力,盡力在做這個事情當然這個不完備的地方我們可以再來做修正人力不足,好,了解了解接下來我也滿關心剛剛陳昭芝委員問到的其實今天在這邊跟,署長可以結束了"},{"start":2986.329,"end":3014.833,"text":"今天跟部長在這邊面對面真的很難過因為我跟您跟石三個人長期有這麼多醫護同仁的同學朋友大家都知道問題在哪裡根本不需要講這麼多不管是缺藥五大皆空我們健保就一碗飯你今天兒科的人吃不飽你就給兒科多吃一點別科的人餓得要死現在覺得醫生都好餓喔所以"},{"start":3015.453,"end":3034.743,"text":"剪刀藥價然後這個藥廠吃不飽再來就是護理師吃不飽你就是一樣啊我跟陳昭之委員的想法一樣挖東牆補西牆但是我們三個人其實都完全知道問題在哪裡可是您對於這個有解方嗎"},{"start":3036.837,"end":3059.633,"text":"基本上這是一個必然會存在的一個現象因為如果我們健保收取的這個保費就是固定那一些的話那這個不可避免一定會有互相排擠的現象會出來那現在只是說哪一個部分的話是要讓它比較合理而不是說一定是要把它砍下來"},{"start":3060.934,"end":3088.799,"text":"所以剛剛陳教授委員在問的時候我不太同意的地方就是這樣因為你如果單從藥這一件事情去看的話就會以偏看前所以你今天護病比、缺護理師、想要招收護理師又突然突襲我們、突襲全國人民、漲掛號費其實這些全部都是環環相扣的,您覺得呢?漲掛號費是另外一件事情那是另外一件事情我相信這個問題"},{"start":3090.399,"end":3106.262,"text":"所有人、所有記者都已經問過部長了啦你覺得我們113年、112年的目標你會希望我們的醫療支出達到多少嗎?因為這件事看起來十幾年來就是6點多嘛"},{"start":3107.203,"end":3133.379,"text":"我跟委員報告那如果用GDP去算的話是有風險的因為GDP會高會低那不是永遠都是往上走的那所以一般來講用GDP那只是一個參考的指標那如果說我們有沒有一個面向來看的話就是一個目標來做處理的話我們當然是逐步的能夠上漲那我們希望說未來的3、4年能夠拉到8%"},{"start":3138.003,"end":3157.843,"text":"臺灣人是非常非常倚重健保我們跟其他國家不一樣其他國家也許一個收入以上一定需要商保你看我們臺灣公部門的醫療支出是3.9%表示說我們這個不管你說6還是7還是8很多都是大家自掏腰包自費出來"},{"start":3159.488,"end":3160.108,"text":"你對這個3.9有印象嗎?"},{"start":3187.661,"end":3215.988,"text":"我的印象中現在應該不止3年9所以我們其實不及格只是在比45分還是50分對我們已經從45分不能這樣講因為每一個國家的這個制度不一樣你說像英國這種公益系統他就擺幾乎百分之一百都是公部門的這個是部長您說的你說這個6.6太低了剛剛陳道志有說你後來把它加一加變成7.5然後預計可以到8"},{"start":3217.208,"end":3217.228,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":3228.444,"end":3249.977,"text":"這部分的話,因為我們也正在跟主席總署這邊來做一個調整那另外的話,在今年我們會派一個訪問團到OECD那邊去希望就是說,跟他們的這個數據的來源是可比較性的,能夠比較一致的對,所以您預計要調整到"},{"start":3255.342,"end":3283.706,"text":"就剛那個7.5嘛然後你說年底前完成估算並會推出相關政策過年已經過完年的你的相關政策是就是要成立一個訪問團對我們要先跟OECD因為現在大家在用的都OECD的這一個比較但是OECD跟我們並沒有直接的關係啦所以他所取用的這個data的來源是什麼樣子的話我們並不清楚所以我們必須要跟他能夠接軌接軌才知道"},{"start":3284.686,"end":3286.467,"text":"為何大家不願意用這個資訊平台?"},{"start":3308.127,"end":3320.759,"text":"這沒有什麼理由,因為這個如果對一般人來講的話,可能他是一個比較困難去處理,但是你這個專業人員不能講這樣子我有一些藥我已經長期開不出來了,放棄了,第一"},{"start":3325.383,"end":3347.843,"text":"這個平台他告訴你有什麼替代藥這個我們應該都知道我們自己也知道有什麼替代藥第二我們告訴了這個平台以後呢這個平台就是公開徵求願意供應的廠商大家看這個這個頁面上有這麼多廠商但是你跟我們說沒有缺藥那何必要徵求這些供應的廠商呢"},{"start":3348.463,"end":3367.914,"text":"這時候有缺的,有缺的我們就會公開徵求,那大部分都已經徵求的到了,那現在只有一個藥,這個藥是屬於合一的這個診斷用藥,所以只有這個目前還缺,但是在3月過後的話,合原所都就可以來恢復來供應。"},{"start":3369.522,"end":3396.911,"text":"最後沒關係我只剩2分鐘最後我提出來的疑問還是跟許多我們醫藥界的前輩一樣啊我們看醫院他因為收入不穩定嘛他不知道今年的點數是多少藥價差對他來說是最穩定的所以他就簽合約囤藥因此你們都有一個假象我們沒有缺藥因為藥就在大醫院啊就是剛講到的醫學中心區醫院啊"},{"start":3397.751,"end":3418.334,"text":"那健保調整藥價點值下降所以影響的是最左邊最可憐的基層的診所基層的藥局還有一般民眾大家現在他領不到藥好也許關號費又調整了他可能要打電話打個十幾二十通去看住家附近哪一家比較適合他看因為他也不知道也沒有公告"},{"start":3419.295,"end":3428.128,"text":"然後最後呢他開了一個藥他必須要長途跋涉也許到醫學中心去領所以部長這可能是未來您要面對的一個大衝擊"},{"start":3430.229,"end":3456.596,"text":"這個基層的診所藥局的話的缺藥的話其實他們應該要做通報因為通報我們就有辦法去做處理沒有通報我們怎麼會知道那全國有幾萬家 他們已經自求多福了你知道他們已經自己互相在換藥 為了要自求多福所以要通報啊不然你自己又沒有能力來處理那你跟媒體講有什麼用 媒體又不能幫你調藥今天你的喉嚨看起來不是很舒服所以我們就先這樣子 謝謝部長謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":3460.219,"end":3469.525,"text":"好,請部長多喝水,你看起來今天好像身體微恙。好,那謝謝陳金輝委員。接下來我們請林月琴委員進行質詢。好,請部長。委員好。好。"},{"start":3487.352,"end":3499.915,"text":"部長好,剛剛你有提到有4568項藥品要調整可是你沒有提到的是其中3590項的藥品事實上是國內藥廠生產的佔了78.6%可是金額是佔了35%可是輸入藥品也就是進口的藥品978項可是竟然佔了21.4%"},{"start":3513.015,"end":3539.865,"text":"可是金額佔了65%那這個調整金額如果比同時就反映了一件事情就是說這樣的一個佔比同時反映一種事情就是我們的學民藥跟我們的原廠藥的市場佔有率可是本席認為進口藥商、國內藥商跟通路本來就不應該是對立的那問題出在我們的健保的那個藥費的制度歐美先進國家那的確他們有專業技術"},{"start":3541.038,"end":3554.191,"text":"然後可是專利期過後國內的藥廠生產的學名藥應該是會有更穩定的供應還有呢藥價是比較低的還有他還有個國安問題如果一旦"},{"start":3555.03,"end":3576.873,"text":"有狀況的時候他可以提供用藥可是現行的我們的藥品費用的支出目標制設定我們的健保費用的支出目標每年壓低藥價然後用量越低藥價越低那造成學名藥根本就沒有利潤最後就是退場退場的結果就是反而我們人民可能會用到的是品質價差的藥所以想問部長"},{"start":3578.362,"end":3599.205,"text":"以藥品費用支出目標制來管制我們的藥費的目的在於我們的控制健保的藥費支出可總不能在缺藥的時候產生危機所以不知道健保署這邊有沒有因應的對策對策是什麼我先跟委員說明我非常贊同委員所說的這個會影響到國安因為一旦是"},{"start":3601.226,"end":3624.852,"text":"如果你完全仰賴原廠藥的話那一旦這個輸入的路徑有受到影響的時候我們馬上就缺藥所以國內的廠商要扶植起來做學名藥那現在剛剛委員提的那個比例是對的因為我們現在是對於原廠藥過專利期的是砍得最多"},{"start":3625.792,"end":3643.332,"text":"因為在專利期他已經受到保障了那所以過了專利期應該就是要大幅的去調降那我們對原廠藥的話如果他在這過專利期之後他可以開始來做學名藥的時候我們給他鼓勵所以在健保的合價我們新的制度就是"},{"start":3644.333,"end":3668.062,"text":"當原廠要過專利期,比如說我們從100塊把它砍到60塊的時候,那我們給學名藥、國產學名藥的是66塊,比那個還高。原因就是本來的market share通通給原廠佔走了,那我們希望在短期之內,你不但是國產的這個學名藥能夠製造出來,而且很快的會有market share。"},{"start":3669.383,"end":3687.098,"text":"會佔Market share是在醫院的醫價所以我們必須要給他好一點的這個健保價才能夠在醫價上面有這個好處所以看起來部長是同意的嘛因為我們現在應該要共同來提升就設法提升我們學民要的那個佔有率"},{"start":3687.694,"end":3703.487,"text":"因為市場現在原廠的銷售額遠高過於相較於學民藥它一直是遙遙領先即便事實上是於專利期5年後還是這樣子的一個問題那我就要問部長說台灣沒有能力自備我們的那個就是原廠"},{"start":3704.367,"end":3705.028,"text":"所以我剛剛跟委員報告就是這個樣子"},{"start":3726.218,"end":3742.606,"text":"國產的原廠的市場佔有率太高所以有一個藥如果說原廠的目前這個很普遍他雖然過專利期但是在過專利期5年之內的話他還在市場的市佔率的話是80%"},{"start":3744.307,"end":3762.287,"text":"萬一他就是說沒有辦法供應進來的時候我們國內的廠商縱然有學名藥他只MarketShare只有20%所以他的產線是沒有辦法很快的來補充的這個是真的是一個國安危機所以我們現在正在調整這樣子我們希望說原廠藥"},{"start":3763.408,"end":3791.366,"text":"在過專利期之後馬上就會有國產的藥廠能夠來生產這個學名藥可以來取代而且它的Market share一定要佔一定的規模以上它才能夠有足夠的產線能夠應付臨時的原廠缺藥的時候我們這邊能夠替補上來所以表示是沒問題的嗎不是沒問題現在正在做這個調整因為過去的話並沒有這樣子的一個調整好"},{"start":3794.265,"end":3810.682,"text":"根據健保署這次提供的書面資料那食藥署透過西藥供應平臺網站作為藥品的通路的一個通報機制通報後經調查而提供現有的替代藥品資訊跟公開徵求其他替代藥品"},{"start":3811.503,"end":3834.845,"text":"那替代療法另外一端依我們的法規要求我們的製藥在停或供貨六個月前要告知健保署以提早營業想問的是我們社區藥局依照我們的依令來開藥可是臺灣藥品是用品名來建黨的如果該項缺藥的話那儘管成分相同可是藥局事實上是他不敢使用那怎麼樣解決這個問題"},{"start":3836.155,"end":3854.294,"text":"這部分的話第一個就是我們的規定裡面健保相關規定裡面也說在如果不指定這一個不可替代的話那它藥局是可以把它用同成分的去做直接調劑這是在本來的規定就有"},{"start":3856.476,"end":3869.834,"text":"書面報告也指出未來鼓勵國內藥廠增加除到6個月的用藥意味同時要儲備6個月的一個原料跟藥品的話增加倉儲、溫控這些設施設備"},{"start":3874.181,"end":3903.04,"text":"增加這些設備都是他們的成本喔那他們的成本可是在我們的原廠藥進口的衝擊下如果滯銷就過期銷毀也是風險有沒有一些輔導計畫根本報告這個是所謂的必要藥品的這個品項那我們會要求我們國內的廠商必須原料要儲存是準備6個月啦但是成品就做好的大概2到3個月的這個存量"},{"start":3903.8,"end":3930.997,"text":"因為如果有原料在的話當然隨時他們是可以去做的可是重點是如果今天進口的那個他最後事實上賣不出去那因為國內真的很喜歡是用原廠藥那也不是造成我們國內很大的衝擊嗎這會評估啦這主要是說他如果那個有預期是會就是說短缺的時候他要事先要通報這事先6個月前要通報給我們"},{"start":3933.607,"end":3956.755,"text":"疫情過後我們各國都投入巨資來整對國內的供應鏈韓國五年投資了50億韓元美國花費了26.1億元那法國花了150歐元那臺灣到底有沒有學民藥的產業政策何時制定然後什麼時候公布"},{"start":3958.737,"end":3967.652,"text":"如果說一個整體的所謂的這個政策的話我們目前就並沒有把它彙整但是我們部分已經在進行的"},{"start":3968.969,"end":3969.59,"text":"我們謝謝林月琴委員的質詢"},{"start":3997.486,"end":4020.243,"text":"接下來我們請盧憲一委員進行質詢有請部長好 有請部長委員好部長好"},{"start":4043.757,"end":4047.479,"text":"因為我來自偏鄉,所以我來每次都會提到偏鄉的問題。"},{"start":4049.215,"end":4071.423,"text":"我記得我離開衛生所大概一年多不過屏東一直缺衛生所缺醫師的情況並沒有改善更何況是有些像新竹苗栗比較偏鄉的不是屬於原鄉的也是缺醫師那我希望部長今天能不能給我一個答案或者說你們有沒有再考慮要怎麼樣來我們來招募我們的醫師來進駐我們偏鄉地區"},{"start":4073.904,"end":4094.367,"text":"各位委員報告,大概這樣子以所謂的偏鄉來講,包括像山地原鄉其實我們的調查,山地原鄉現在缺醫師的情況是比較小的最缺的是所謂那種不三不四的,非都會區也不是山區,那些的問題是比較大的"},{"start":4094.687,"end":4110.146,"text":"那我們現在有提出一個偏鄉醫療計畫那已經在行政院那邊應該是快要過了我想知道說他們的薪水有沒有調漲多少就針對不三不四的地區對那這個部分的話我們第一個先要找到人力"},{"start":4111.047,"end":4129.586,"text":"不是你沒有先提供一個待遇讓他們想說他們能不能支撐他們的生活然後去那個地區生活應該是他們最主要的考量是在這裡如果一般市區是7萬多塊的一個本縫的話你是不是用14萬的來招募他們會馬上就很多人來應徵啊不是嗎"},{"start":4130.667,"end":4154.068,"text":"這個部分的話因為委員應該也知道就是說這個衛生所醫師的這個奉給跟他的獎勵金的部分的話其實是在縣市政府的手上沒有錯可是我們是不是可以特別編列預算再從衛福部這裡給他們我們這個是可以來考慮的但是主要還是要看人從哪裡來所以你們可以編預算我們這邊想辦法同意啊"},{"start":4154.648,"end":4155.349,"text":"不然永遠都缺。"},{"start":4177.345,"end":4198.535,"text":"所以我們覺得不能一直把問題放在那裡,要想辦法解決,我再替我們偏鄉的,不是指原鄉,不只原鄉而已,對不對?不過像剛剛委員提到這種像東港啦,或者潮州這一種,大概是因為當地有一些醫療院所,所以衛生所的醫療業務本來就少啦"},{"start":4198.835,"end":4199.756,"text":"我們回到今天的主題"},{"start":4221.127,"end":4231.973,"text":"我們現在的用藥一直在我們的那個保險的比例是從26到現在大概是28左右那我想知道說你們調整這次調整的主要的目的是什麼"},{"start":4233.732,"end":4261.408,"text":"現在在講委員在講的調整應該是第一梯的調整那現在第一梯的調整主要的目的就是讓這個專利剛剛過期的那它的藥價就可以把它壓下來像你常常在遇到我們在偏鄉服務或者是在比較就是老人家比較多的地方其實你在改藥或者是用藥選擇上面如果一改再改的時候你光叫長者來認這個藥就非常的困難"},{"start":4262.268,"end":4287.326,"text":"甚至有些藥廠他也不會考慮說原來的藥是什麼顏色他改顏色他就不敢吃了很多都是因為這樣他說怎麼藥又改了這個醫師本來就有這個我的意思是說頻率不要那麼頻繁尤其是他的慢性病藥但是你說原廠藥通通都保障它的話也不對啦當然我知道我的意思是說盡量如果以後我們國內有生產原廠藥的話盡量它的形狀跟顏色要一樣不然"},{"start":4291.836,"end":4320.976,"text":"幾乎要一致,不然常常會有困難沒有錯,可是盡量因為老人家就是認那個顏色啊認那個大小啊但是藥廠在出製造這個藥的時候我是說那個,我說你要替一些我們老人家在山上但是藥廠在出的時候,他通常都是用他們的同一個系列的會有那有他們的是啦,我說你要普遍請他們略入考量好不好這是有一點困難,要做的話有點困難"},{"start":4323.017,"end":4323.037,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":4339.161,"end":4353.198,"text":"正常或是說健康的方向來想嗎?對不對?對,而且公委報告現在有一些新藥是蠻貴的我知道啊,有爭議的我也知道啊那我意思是說我們目前的水準大概是跟土耳其差不多"},{"start":4354.406,"end":4375.092,"text":"現在按照這個他的藥費的比例土耳其然後墨西哥那如果我們跟美國來比是12英國是12韓國是23那我覺得我們的方向是如果以後是越來越低的話你是不是要一個配套措施你要怎麼樣去教育民眾你有一系列的教育的計畫嗎這差異是在母樹"},{"start":4377.053,"end":4392.507,"text":"是嗎?這個不是武術喔?OK,那我們不要看美國,我們就看墨西哥就好啦,或者是說看土耳其是不是?所以我的意思是說,如果以後是越來越低,你要相對花很大的成本在教育民眾"},{"start":4393.468,"end":4416.606,"text":"用這個比例來看的話是不準的,土耳其可能整個醫療費用很少,所以藥費的比例就高了我們是期待是往健康的方向走,而不是支出越來越多的一個方向,不是嗎?所以我的意思是說藥費去佔GDP的這個比例的話,這種比較的話是不很恰當我們的GDP是佔1.1"},{"start":4417.987,"end":4434.3,"text":"我們應該是自己跟自己比啦左手邊是1.1,藥費這樣1.1也就是說我們是在這裡面的倒數第6名沒有,這個比較沒有太大的意義啊我剛剛講嘛,那個base是不一樣,那GDP是不同的你說GDP很少的,那大家藥費就是那麼多那是這樣整體醫療的話這邊就有一個"},{"start":4436.201,"end":4465.013,"text":"右手邊這邊是整體醫療的費用支出這邊是佔GDP的費用支出那我們台灣大概就是倒數第6名那個GDP的比例啊費用的話是在前面就整體醫療費用去佔GDP的比例這個比較有它的基礎但是用醫療費去比的話讓國員理解說目前的狀況是在哪裡那如果國家的政策以後是越來越少的話你們應該要有個想辦法10年的一個計畫怎麼來教育我們全國的民眾好不好"},{"start":4465.533,"end":4488.591,"text":"基本上如果我們的base沒有辦法擴大的話那我們這一個藥費所佔的比例會越來越高其實我們在整間其實花最多的時間就是在解釋藥的部分尤其在改藥的時候我曾經在兩年前在訪療的時候他們常常就缺了一個藥叫Adalat或者說氧化酶然後氧化酶甚至缺了半年之久"},{"start":4489.372,"end":4518.169,"text":"那我想知道當初缺藥跟後來進了藥的時候那樣的一個窗口是怎麼樣來運作的?氧化鎂的部分的話事實上是因為的確啦這個健保價是已經殺到很低所以那個廠商要推出啦那後來我們就給他一個保障價地板的保障價那他廠商就恢復供應了所以這是氧化鎂的部分我想知道部長知道怎麼樣來訂價格是最合理的嗎?"},{"start":4519.502,"end":4520.845,"text":"下一張再給我一分鐘"},{"start":4530.851,"end":4550.156,"text":"這就Value-Based Pricing也就是說你先教育就是說你先要理解我們消費者這個產品的價值在哪裡這是對這個長期價格的一個取向的一個最好的一個指標希望你能夠上網看一下 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 我們謝謝盧憲義委員的質詢接下來我們請邱振軍委員進行質詢"},{"start":4568.41,"end":4597.736,"text":"好我們一樣有請部長好請部長部長請問那個蘇丹紅的事件我想這兩天又上頭版最近又爆出11家的餐飲以及食品業者都中標了這是今天早上的一個兩大報的一個頭版大家可以看一下"},{"start":4601.448,"end":4624.204,"text":"部長有看到嗎?有,我知道我想兩大報我們先談聯合報講的食藥署不保證市場沒有問題這是真的嗎?根本報告目前這會往下再查那因為他這個辣椒粉做成很多成品所以我們現在是你多久可以查?"},{"start":4625.377,"end":4637.43,"text":"現在陸陸續續都一直在講你可以給我一個時間嗎?我覺得這樣一直等,拖的時間太久,我們國內的安全誰負責?一個月內應該是可以把這些統統查完"},{"start":4638.736,"end":4666.444,"text":"從今天開始?對,校期之內的這些產品那你查的方式勒?你現在怎麼查?因為現在從原料開始往下第二層加工的然後再第三層的話就是這個零售的這部分因為我覺得啦,我們民眾食安的問題不能拖不能等尤其是在我們16縣市的營養午餐這個部分部長可不可以承諾先可以處理?"},{"start":4667.894,"end":4697.257,"text":"營養午餐的部分我們尊重地方的決定因為小孩子吃辣的習慣是比較少的所以營養午餐要去禁這個我覺得營養午餐這部分應該是不是我們這邊要嚴格先禁止先預防性的這些下架因為營養午餐的業務並不是說由衛福部這邊來控制的但你可以通知各縣市吧"},{"start":4698.493,"end":4722.45,"text":"那個辣椒粉這個我們是可以來跟教育部這邊再來討論一下我們這個問題預防性的下架也不敢那暫時下架待檢驗的全部可以因為有問題的是預防性下架本來就要做你上次講的啦你上次講的我們只抽了大概20%、50%我們關心的是那沒有驗的50%"},{"start":4724.754,"end":4728.517,"text":"對,所以我們現在就循先在打麥克風所以應該要照著這個部分要盡快,好不好?"},{"start":4731.977,"end":4757.302,"text":"另外第二個我們今天談的議題就是藥價的我們今年總共有4568項藥品的價格異動那其中調降了4551項調升17項那當然這是我們2013年以後調整最少的一個紀錄那表示說我們醫界跟藥界的他們的聲音有被聽到那我想請問部長那這次藥價"},{"start":4760.526,"end":4789.72,"text":"被砍最多的前三類藥品是什麼我是不是這個問題我是不是可以請我們健保署長來回答委員好 跟委員報告大概還是以這個慢性病的用藥高血壓還有這個神經用藥還有這個血糖的藥這幾類為主就是心血管藥嘛神經系統的還有全身性抗感染劑用藥那這4000多項裡的調整藥品裡面的慢性病占了多少"},{"start":4790.485,"end":4806.769,"text":"慢性病大概是八成那涉及到這個慢性處方籤的大概是七成我們以聯合報2023年8月有一篇關於慢性病共同防治的報導說2022年我們慢性病就醫人數高達1286萬人超過700萬人罹患兩種以上的慢性病以臺灣的人口結構來看"},{"start":4816.531,"end":4819.694,"text":"跟委員報告目前拿慢性處方籤的人數大概近800萬人"},{"start":4835.187,"end":4852.893,"text":"那我們在這個用藥上呢這一次調降的時候有特別也宣布說如果我們公告之後是4月1號才實施但是在3月8號之前提出那麼如果有不敷成本我們都會重新的調整價格到目前為止提出的只有5項藥對那些藥萬一沒有了怎麼辦"},{"start":4855.775,"end":4880.479,"text":"到目前為止提出不敷成本的有5項的藥而已啦那我們這5項就會暫時不會調降他的這個藥價讓他這個確保能夠繼續供藥好啦因為我據本席了解齁我們慢性病的用藥的習慣齁你如果換藥的話大家都會有抱怨聲啦齁而且對藥會沒有信心好那我希望剛剛呃我們呃次長吶呃署長"},{"start":4885.458,"end":4914.383,"text":"你這邊在這個有這個問題的話請你們就一定要慎重來處理好不好這替代性還是我們必須要有這藥的替代性不然的話這會被原廠把我們的整個的健保掐死當然啦我也不是說你們沒有一定要用一種藥就是說我盡量能夠降低這個我們民眾用的用藥的一個疑慮那再來就是"},{"start":4915.97,"end":4939.41,"text":"我們的醫院的分級我們的醫療落實成相這個醫療差距那麼原本臺灣社區醫院協會在2月21號在國民黨團開記者會說要在3月8日上街遊行表達訴求到3月4號我們行政院才進行溝通那我想知道為什麼每次都要準備抗爭的時候我們才要進行溝通呢"},{"start":4940.351,"end":4966.993,"text":"本來這個溝通就是有的只是說當時他們對於這個結果並不滿意所以才有這樣子的一些舉動我看到3月4號會議裡面達成的一個共識其中一個就是檢討我們健保藥價的政策來協助解決社區醫院用藥的採購困難你們每年說調整藥價是這個例行行業每年都看不到地區醫院的困難"},{"start":4968.803,"end":4983.085,"text":"都要走上街頭才來處理我希望部長這邊能夠認真來看待這個事情第7院經營的一些困難的情形我們有跟他們已經有我們推動醫療分級的時候是從什麼時候開始"},{"start":4984.225,"end":5010.846,"text":"醫療分級是很早,從醫療網計畫在民國差不多74年左右的時候就開始但是時空環境的一些演變,這中間也必須要去做一些調整。我不知道部長有沒有想過,就是說就算是費用高一點,我們像我們苗栗縣,苗栗縣民來講有碰到什麼問題,他還是願意多花一點錢到大醫院跑,你知道這為什麼嗎?"},{"start":5012.528,"end":5039.257,"text":"當然有一些是品牌的迷思啦大醫院這醫師是對啦像我們苗栗醫院都是區域醫院跟地區醫院這幾年在醫院縣府我們中央相互的合作做了策略聯盟那當然慢慢的會有提升那我們當然有別的想法就是希望說如果苗栗現有的醫院裡我們就地升級的可能性大不大"},{"start":5040.037,"end":5059.815,"text":"這就是我們鼓勵的方向我們希望說在地的醫院都能夠提升它的品質讓建立這個品牌的形象讓我們的民眾有這個信心像布苗醫院像集中症大樓跟我們的癌症中心兩個大樓沒有辦法主席再給我一分鐘"},{"start":5064.019,"end":5088.893,"text":"因為你知道除了是費用的關係是費用的問題還有沒有其他問題主要還是費用的問題所以我們現在已經工程費用已經有追加了對我這樣講我是有聽到就是說我們的設計跟這個部分我希望部長也能夠去了解一下是不是有一些問題讓廠商不敢去投標"},{"start":5089.833,"end":5090.793,"text":"我們謝謝邱政軍委員的質詢接下來我們請廖偉祥委員進行質詢"},{"start":5129.693,"end":5156.349,"text":"有請部長好部長請委員好部長好部長衛福部在前天突然無預警的宣布掛號費的取消上限請教部長你在做這個行為之前你沒有做所謂的啟動社會溝通以及邀請學者專家研議或評估嗎在做這個政策之前"},{"start":5157.849,"end":5183.399,"text":"倒是沒有說有這樣大規模的去作證如果沒有政策沒有評估就上路完全沒有考慮到取消上限後會造成的任何的影響包含醫療可進性包含醫療階級化或者醫療體系長期上會有發生什麼狀況有沒有可能不利這個醫療分級等等的影響喔我在想這樣子的取消上限我想請問部長你覺得對百姓的醫療負擔會長幾成呢"},{"start":5185.72,"end":5208.307,"text":"以目前來講的話,第一個我要講,我們在做這個公告之前,其實有一些...你知道會長幾層嗎?你們有研究過會長幾層嗎?這個沒有辦法去做這個...所以其實你們沒有審慎的評估研究,也沒有足夠的溝通,對不對?應該不是說這樣,因為...部長,政策是不能隨性的,我覺得很多政策你們必須要經過審慎的評估才可以喔"},{"start":5209.207,"end":5227.884,"text":"尤其是這個對於長期的影響所以你們聽起來就是沒有評估而且看起來的行為就是用甩鍋給地方政府面對這樣的問題你們選擇偏移一下形式的方式我知道學界或者是醫藥界對這件事情普遍是積極的看法可是"},{"start":5228.844,"end":5245.622,"text":"這幾年來對於百姓來講你從去年提高部分的負擔增加醫學中心的名額讓百姓、民眾看病變得更貴之外現在這一次直接拿掉我們所謂的掛號費上限對百姓而言就是漲漲漲所以對於人民而言是被剝了三層皮"},{"start":5246.443,"end":5263.209,"text":"部長我想要請問你這樣拿掉掛號費上線就解決問題了嗎?因為掛號費不是只是行政費用而已嗎?事實上對問題的核心不就是因為健保點值長期的不公而且過低所以才造成這個醫事人員被政府拗作功德"},{"start":5264.149,"end":5287.43,"text":"各位委員報告醫護低薪與過勞並且人力流失所以才造成我們醫療體系可能崩潰所以我覺得你們倉促做這件事情又沒有充分的溝通也沒有充分的去評估你們造成的事情也沒有評估說那這樣對百姓可能造成多少負擔有沒有對於這些比較低薪的百姓或者是比較收入較低的配套方案也沒有做"},{"start":5288.513,"end":5307.701,"text":"我們看起來就是你不去思考怎麼改革健保總額的制度要怎麼改革不去解決問題這樣是一個治標不治本的狀況而且也沒有根治的問題這樣的做法還可能衍生更多的這個對於社會的影響我想這個部分部長你們是不是不夠的嚴謹"},{"start":5309.142,"end":5324.184,"text":"所以看起來你們衛福部的做法就是把這個責任推到推得一乾二淨也把你們對於健保應該改革的問題推得一乾二淨健保的改革是健保的改革這是一樣但是你們現在看起來就是急救張馬"},{"start":5325.816,"end":5350.489,"text":"那個瓜費的這一個部分的話因為瓜費本來就是行政費用那我想請問部長那你健保的總和制度改革你什麼時候要提出現在都逐漸的在進行當中那下次期待你提出一個更完整的方案而不是急救張的方式來做這件事情好嗎跟委員報告因為整個的話是最後健保的改革會在修法的這一個部分真正的問題是健保點值長期不公你認不認同"},{"start":5352.03,"end":5357.735,"text":"你認不認同?你認不認同這件事?這個簡報現在是寫的這樣子所以你認同還不認同?我沒有要你解釋,我問你yes or no"},{"start":5367.966,"end":5381.959,"text":"我是認為說這一個沒有去講到核心沒有講到核心那你會改革健保點子的問題嗎那這個是知識體態因為健保所謂的點子是跟量是有關的那如果說好部長"},{"start":5382.68,"end":5404.207,"text":"我們現在進行下一題部長過年前今天的重點過年前這個傳出缺藥時你說堅持品牌迷思堅持原廠藥只能等死喔恕我不能同意你這樣的看法因為官員存在的目的不就是應該解決百姓的問題嗎為什麼可以說只有人民只能等死呢你承不承認這句話是失言"},{"start":5405.587,"end":5432.633,"text":"沒有,因為只有一個病人,如果你堅持這個藥但是缺藥,失明重要的民生一級,攸關人民的健康,可以這樣子講話嗎?因為你可以只講堅持品牌迷失是會造成問題,你不能說民眾只能等死啊,對吧?委員,我想齁,這個遣食用字是沒有好,部長,今天要討論的這個健保藥價調整以及藥廠慢性病用藥的因應作為,我想要請問"},{"start":5433.853,"end":5455.858,"text":"這兩年的缺藥問題很嚴重有些是真的缺藥有些是假的缺藥但是近半年缺藥問題是越來越嚴重包含這個媒體人我們陳文茜女士也在臉書說現在健保制度下卻買不到一粒一元的口服劑型的類固醇所以他還請人從美國代購甚至現在也傳出"},{"start":5457.599,"end":5472.332,"text":"這個藥局為了留住客戶而開始賠錢加價囤一些常用的慢性藥品例如我們調整心跳速率的這個康克我想要請教部長包含著這個我們的"},{"start":5473.846,"end":5501.624,"text":"愛敏氏也已經長期一年多缺藥了我想請問部長喔你有沒有掌握到這樣的狀況這個都有替代的或者是說同成分的一個品牌沒有我剛剛講的事情是現在的藥局為了留住客戶開始賠錢加價存一些常用的慢性藥品你有沒有掌握到這樣的狀況那個委員要不要聽我稍微這一點做一點解釋他現在在抱怨的是我們現在把藥價調下來"},{"start":5502.725,"end":5525.588,"text":"但是當初他禁的藥部長你沒有聽清楚我的問題我剛說你有沒有掌握到這樣的狀況有你不用解釋對好有對不對總是要讓你解釋一下吧那這種類似沒有我只問你有沒有掌握到有我沒有說這個事情發生就是我只想問你有沒有掌握到有所以這類似overbooking的做法是不是只會讓缺藥的問題雪上加霜那我想要請教部長你們衛福部是不是要公開呼籲藥局不要囤貨"},{"start":5528.427,"end":5545.713,"text":"沒有啊,這所謂的囤貨我剛剛...你會公開呼籲嗎?我剛剛解釋,委員就沒有時間給我解釋嘛這個不是囤貨,是他已經買進來了啦但是現在藥局...但是當時的價格是比較高的那所以你是說你不會公開呼籲他們不要囤貨?"},{"start":5547.327,"end":5549.968,"text":"我整理出缺藥的原因在供應或是製造端方面有4點"},{"start":5572.572,"end":5589.426,"text":"製造品質或法規要求改變原料藥的供應不及跟物流運送的延遲還有這個藥廠商業考量或是製造排成延遲或停止製造這個預專利很久的藥品而另外在輸入端也就是需求端的部分"},{"start":5590.676,"end":5608.874,"text":"複存量的管理不佳和我們突然增加的需求以及季節需求因素都會造成缺藥我們想請問這些所有可能缺藥的因素我們點出來那食藥署除了建置一個缺藥通報平台之外有沒有針對這些因素預先去因應或是做危機的管控"},{"start":5609.774,"end":5630.41,"text":"如果是在這所謂的必要藥品的項目裡面的話那我們要求是6個月之前若可以是部長我知道藥界都很清楚食藥署只是控藥就是發生缺藥的時候要求這個優先提供給大醫院所以為何食藥署不能夠從製造端或服務端常態性的去了解未來一年未來一年的供應狀況"},{"start":5632.728,"end":5654.765,"text":"好因為時間有限下一題請教部長和我們的健保署的時署長現在缺藥問題涉及的層面很廣所以外界普遍的看法因為藥價不斷被砍鎖導致所以這個藥品的支付改革也是我們缺藥的重要的一環對不對所以請教署長已經開了無數次的這個健保藥品政策改革方案溝通會議何時會定案"},{"start":5656.819,"end":5684.705,"text":"跟委員報告我們近期還會再開一次那包含一些保障的措施還有鼓勵在台製造的政策來確定溝通之後然後接著進行法規的預告好因為已經開了很多次了所以還是請這個我們食藥署的部分還不是請我們健保署的部分可以趕快的進行還有另外因為藥價改革也涉及到修正全民健康保險藥物給付項目跟支付標準我想要請教部長和署長何時會預告何時會公告"},{"start":5686.186,"end":5704.726,"text":"都會在快的話大概在4月份我們就會進行預告了好因為我在面對缺藥問題的時候我一個星期前有公開主張過同時符合三個這個條件我們該的各該品項的藥價就可以排除在每年藥價調整之外或者不受藥價調整的影響"},{"start":5705.447,"end":5732.828,"text":"那這三個條件分別是臨床上有需求臨床上有需求也是也就是要必須經過我們的醫學會的認證第二個是鼓勵在地製造希望可以穩定供應鏈第三個是三張以下的稀缺藥證這三個具體的項目這個提議的背後就是希望尊重各醫學會他們最清楚藥的需求然後第二個是希望鼓勵在地製造希望可以穩定我們的藥品供應"},{"start":5733.809,"end":5755.876,"text":"更加我們的就業機會第三個是希望稀缺藥證就是誠如部長說的替代性的藥品盡量不要調整這三個方案是否可行所以請你們好好的評估根本報告這方向上面我們是贊同但是要醫學會認證這件事情要保留請你們回去好好的評估因為醫學會他們在臨床上有他們的需求這部分請你們相加"},{"start":5758.217,"end":5778.036,"text":"所以我知道你會這樣講沒關係下一題因為時間快到了最後一題我們要回到我們人民最關心的食安問題最近蘇丹紅的事情越演越烈已經是一個系統性的問題而且辣椒原料從禮拜一的時候你們說查出2萬多公斤到今天3天後已經查出6.4萬公斤"},{"start":5780.154,"end":5795.468,"text":"而且我去調了海關進口這個所謂的辣椒製品在2023年也就是112年的時候總共進口了276萬公斤啊部長你知道嗎但是他不是通通都不合格"},{"start":5796.189,"end":5813.024,"text":"不是通通不合格但是我告訴你這276萬公斤進來了對不對你已經查到了6.4萬公斤了你查到了6.4萬公斤了已經2點多趴將近3趴了依照你民進黨陳建仁和你部長的統計學我可不可以說這276萬公斤很多都有問題"},{"start":5814.065,"end":5826.554,"text":"你敢保證都沒問題嗎?我依照你們統計學說的我依照你們統計學說的因為你們上次說這個3%不能夠代表你現在已經驗出了這麼多了你有多少量你還有沒有掌握到?"},{"start":5827.253,"end":5854.815,"text":"我們現在就是對於那些沒有掌握到的我們足皮的再往下你剛才說一個多月然後現在人民已經暴露在這樣系統性的食安風暴裡面部長我只是把這數據提供給你讓你好好的嚴加嚴加的去查276萬多公斤會影響台灣多少的食品而且你們食藥署也說不保證市場沒有問題所以你這276萬公斤很可怕請你們好好的把皮繃緊一點"},{"start":5857.057,"end":5872.952,"text":"而且現在縣市政府都跟進我們的很多這個團戰包含我們六都裡面全部在野黨執政的縣市地方政府縣市都宣布說不准營養午餐用這個辣椒粉那"},{"start":5874.093,"end":5897.604,"text":"反而是我看到中央好像把關不利變成地方很努力的在為你們擋然後也要求縣市政府說營養午餐、團餐不可以使用可是看起來民進黨執政的縣市沒有跟進我想請問部長有什麼看法我們是不反對說地方政府對於這個小孩子吃辣的習慣是少的"},{"start":5898.084,"end":5915.92,"text":"你不能夠說吃他習慣少那他任何可能知道的風險呢所以那個部分你要你去說禁止我們並不反對你並不反對那為什麼你不可以說你建議你建議這些縣市可以先不要用因為你現在查不到嘛276萬公斤你沒辦法馬上查完嘛那你是不是應該衛福部中央應該要有點尬詞"},{"start":5918.082,"end":5930.631,"text":"擔當起來現在看起來就是現在看起來就是地方為你們把關的很嚴謹中央發生的這個事情好像不管你們是全部推給地方這有前者的分工部長"},{"start":5931.932,"end":5956.05,"text":"食安的預警溯源10年來都沒有進步所以我們星期一的時候也請教你跟徐副主任有關食安匯報的狀況你們本來說今年1月份要召開但是因為選舉因素現在還沒有確定日期大家都說食安不能有假期但是看起來你們民進黨政府選舉最大食安匯報一拖再拖也沒有關係我想問這是你們對食安的態度嗎"},{"start":5958.632,"end":5975.206,"text":"應該我所知道的應該是這一個月會召開那我問部長最後我還是要問你你到底重不重視食安我當然重視你很重視食安對不對你很重視好但是上次我問你的時候你缺席去年食安會報你告訴我說因為你要接受立法院的質詢"},{"start":5976.207,"end":5988.834,"text":"但是我去查了你的食安會報那一次是下午3點召開可是我們的委員會1點22就散會了中間還有一個半小時你說你很重視食安的話你有充分的時間可以去參加食安會報但你卻選擇出席而且面對國會議員的公開質疑你卻選擇說謊不去參加的理由"},{"start":5996.198,"end":5996.679,"text":"我跟委員解釋一下第一個"},{"start":6014.76,"end":6025.384,"text":"當我知道隔天要食安會議報告和解釋不用解釋我沒有要你解釋那件事情我要跟你講的事情是你因為這樣子導致現在臺灣喔不是說你的這個態度喔你這個態度讓現在這個276萬公斤流竄在我們的社會裡面你要不要因為這個系統性的食安問題你要不要因為這個系統性的食安問題跟全國人民道歉"},{"start":6041.189,"end":6042.17,"text":"好 謝謝大家好 謝謝廖偉祥委員的質詢"},{"start":6072.574,"end":6081.838,"text":"那主席在這邊宣告一下等王玉敏委員質詢完之後我們休息5分鐘好接下來我們請黃秀芳委員進行質詢謝謝主席我們請部長好有請部長"},{"start":6096.775,"end":6116.793,"text":"委員好部長好部長我想剛剛那個廖委員質詢的我給你一分鐘的說明時間我看你想要說明可是這個委員不聽所以我一分鐘讓你說明一下兩點第一點的話就是說我們每一次在委員會開完會議之後我會找我"},{"start":6117.614,"end":6137.759,"text":"回到部裡面我會找我們的幕僚討論一下那到底這委員的給我們的一些指教或者我們答應委員要做的事情要怎麼樣進行所以那個時間並不是說我不是在耍花樣我沒有請民意代表要去糟蹋那種行我們很多事情還要去做去做所以"},{"start":6138.419,"end":6153.563,"text":"第二個,就是說當天那個食安會議的時候那因為我預期到有委員會要開,所以一定是預先請教,而且指派代表我沒有辦法去預期說,委員會幾點會結束,因為那個是召委的權責"},{"start":6156.424,"end":6179.198,"text":"這個部分的話我已經請了代理那當然我就照我的schedule講那剛剛也是提到我們委員會開完我不是就沒事了所以我還是必須要回去做一些準備那怎麼樣來處理這些相關的問題那當然國人關心的這個食安的這個議題食品安全那我們希望就是說在這個"},{"start":6180.979,"end":6196.421,"text":"第一線 食藥署這個在第一線就要去把關那後市場後市場的部分我相信你們應該也有通知各個縣市這個所有後市場的部分你們應該也要在短時間內趕快去把它查清楚要不然"},{"start":6197.402,"end":6224.567,"text":"現在大家就疑慮啊各縣市有的縣市會認為就是說在這個時燈平台已經可以很清楚那有的縣市可能會有疑慮那就停了這個營養午餐使用辣椒粉或者是咖哩粉那這樣子會造成很多人就是會恐慌所以我是不是在這邊要要求食藥署針對後市場的部分應該要在短時間內要趕快把它釐清"},{"start":6225.547,"end":6244.756,"text":"根本報告就是第一層進口的廠商那被查到有問題的這個我們已經能夠掌握然後他往下走賣給哪一些廠商這個我們也能夠掌握那第二層的這些加工廠做出來之後的成品賣到哪裡去的話"},{"start":6245.276,"end":6271.076,"text":"在我們的非追系統裡面是沒有辦法完全都查到的所以我們就變成要每一家每一家去查看你賣到哪裡去那賣到哪裡去的時候我們就到那個他所指出來的這個廠商去看他的這些使用這個辣椒粉到底是有哪一些產品那這些我們還要把它抽回來去做檢驗因為如果沒有"},{"start":6271.536,"end":6287.428,"text":"沒有這個違規的我們也不能就把人家禁掉所以還必須要把它抽回來那再做進一步的一個檢驗確定是這個沒有了那我們才能夠把它封存銷毀所以這個事情就是變成是比較細"},{"start":6289.489,"end":6313.447,"text":"當然如果說一個違規的產品如果它的那個風險是非常非常的高我們大概一下子就禁止然後全部都下架但是這個東西的話事實上是致癌致癌物的第三級風險並不如想像那麼高而我們這個整個的民間在使用這種辣椒粉"},{"start":6314.187,"end":6336.12,"text":"又是那麼多我人有這種習慣所以我們沒有辦法說一下子全部通通所有的辣椒粉或者相關製品通通要下架這個我們做不到當然就是說食品安全的這個議題我們希望就是說那個食藥署這邊後市場的部分真的要趕快趕快去積極去查就循線然後積極趕快把它處理掉"},{"start":6339.122,"end":6348.971,"text":"那部長我想說針對這個早產兒育兒津貼養育津貼的這個部分因為在去年我們也有開過記者會就是我幾位委員開過記者會我想說這個兒童節也快到了"},{"start":6356.257,"end":6377.851,"text":"這個早產兒的養育津貼因為家裡面如果有一個早產兒的話在前6個月其實健康照護的這個支出比健康逐月生出來的這個寶寶所支出的可能要多4倍那我想請教就是說我們現在整個少子化在2023年所有新生兒的這個出生率"},{"start":6378.551,"end":6396.321,"text":"出生就只有剩下13萬那一個都不能少那尤其是這個早產兒的養育真的是更辛苦我不知道說部長針對這部分是不是認同或者是未來我們可以怎麼樣來協助家裡面有早產兒的這個家庭"},{"start":6396.823,"end":6423.892,"text":"我們就這一點我們正在找一些相關的團體大家來做討論第一個就是說這個所謂早產的他的這個健康照護的支出是比較高的到底高在哪一些項目上面那如果可能的話我們會用十五幾戶的方式我們比較不想用發現金的方式因為發現金之後父母會拿去做什麼你不知道結果這個小孩子還是沒照顧到這個是我們要避免的"},{"start":6424.992,"end":6454.145,"text":"所以不論是早產的他可能是需要一些營養品或者是眼睛可能會有一些問題或者是肺部會有一些問題那像針對這一部分我剛我也認同部長的這個所說的就是可能用實際的這個補助他需要的這個營養品的一個補助或者是藥品的這個補助我認同那是不是說可以盡速趕快去做一個整理好 謝謝那另外就是說"},{"start":6456.206,"end":6481.946,"text":"這個我們國家挹注的這個兒童專科醫院其實是沒有國家支援挹注的這個兒童的專科醫院像臺大醫院他也算他只是有一個這個兒童醫院他只是有一個建築那很多還是跟成人的一起使用那他也算是只是兒科的一部分就是兒科"},{"start":6483.106,"end":6508.163,"text":"對阿像往南的話就剩下這個還有最南就是彰化基督教醫院有一個兒童醫院嗎應該高雄那邊還有高雄現在有嗎沒有阿目前我們看到是沒有阿高一高一現在是有好那我想請教就是說其實我們看到從這個南部或者是東部其實兒童的這個新生兒的這個死亡率其實一直都沒有"},{"start":6508.863,"end":6537.172,"text":"就是覺得都比例都還是偏高那會不會跟我們沒有這個兒童的這個專科專科的這個醫療會不會是有關跟我們報告就針對這一點的話我們就是也注意到所以這我們推出了一個優化兒童醫療照護的計畫那這個計畫的話在原來的前三年的話是經費是比較少那今年是第四年我們把預算增加了"},{"start":6538.353,"end":6563.008,"text":"明年可能還會繼續再推這第二期這一個部分的話我們會有所謂的核心醫院跟重點醫院另外一個又有專職醫師核心醫院就是比較高的能夠去訓練人力然後來做重男罕症的治療這個部分"},{"start":6564.895,"end":6578.049,"text":"重點醫院的部分就我們希望一個縣市至少要有一家他要做什麼他必須要提供24小時有兒科的專科醫師能夠來看急診或是cover急診"},{"start":6579.881,"end":6600.823,"text":"第二就是他必須要早產能夠做照顧也就是要有新生兒的加護病房當然更好的是說有兒童加護病房會有分級所以這部分的話我們都會給他補助其中對兒科醫師的話大概重點醫院跟核心醫院的部分的話我們會給"},{"start":6602.924,"end":6628.83,"text":"一個月一萬元因為我們看到其實要醫院要招募這個兒科醫師其實也不容易像臺大他連那個兒科醫師的招募都不足所以我覺得說應該要放更多的資源在這個而且這都是公務預算都沒有遲到健保那剛剛最後因為時間的關係最後我想請教就是說很多委員在關心就是我們的這個掛號費"},{"start":6631.731,"end":6653.658,"text":"就是沒有去這個有關這個掛號費這個上限那也沒有去做一個這個備查的這個制度所以我想請教就是說未來如果說是經濟弱勢的民眾那他可能會考慮到這個掛號費真的太貴了那可能會影響到他的整個就醫的這個權利所以我想請教部長就針對這些經濟弱勢的民眾怎麼處理"},{"start":6656.039,"end":6676.274,"text":"跟委員報告,其實經濟弱勢的民眾的話,我們有公財的回饋金是分配給各個縣市政府本來就是公財的回饋金裡面的使用,就有包括這一個經濟弱勢的他就醫的時候的掛號費等等這些,他就可以給他補助"},{"start":6677.535,"end":6703.656,"text":"所以我也想請部長針對目前我們這個公號費的這個上限就是你們沒有特意去就是說要有一個公號費的上限那你們是不是也要有一個一段時間去觀察到底這些診所、診所、醫院、區域醫院、地區醫院或者是醫學中心這個調整之後會有什麼對民眾有什麼樣的影響我覺得你們應該也要有一個配套"},{"start":6704.156,"end":6726.495,"text":"不過可能就是說我們會從那個公立醫院開始公立醫院大概不會去醫院馬上就做調整所以公立醫院應該是暫時不會長所以公立醫院目前這個掛號費應該不會有所調整對那其他的醫院或者診所如果有調整的話如果有聯合行為那就是要交給公平會去"},{"start":6726.735,"end":6727.316,"text":"黃秀芳委員質詢"},{"start":6752.474,"end":6761.339,"text":"謝謝主席。部長,我看到你睡著了。我看你都不醒了。我們請石崇亮署長,還有我們吳署長。好,來請兩位署長。委員長。我將吳署長先回答一個問題。"},{"start":6771.864,"end":6785.841,"text":"這個是媒體要知道的今天早上都談很多了那些蘇丹紅、辣椒粉因為辣椒我們前幾天部長就講說這次出包是辣椒粉蘇丹紅沾在辣椒裡面 對不對"},{"start":6788.364,"end":6808.906,"text":"原頭是大陸嘛所以現在的一級、二級一直分裝一直出去我上次跟部長請教聽說現在十幾萬公斤啊部長又說沒多少你看越拼越多原來三家那我請問今天又查出來幾家"},{"start":6810.097,"end":6811.358,"text":"另外一個有媒體說這個東西已經進來3年了"},{"start":6836.792,"end":6863.19,"text":"三年了?真的有那麼久嗎?還是十年了?因為我們過去一直都有在驗那有一些業者像我們這一次針對的21家全部都禁他的就是只要有不管是農藥啊或者是曾經有驗出蘇丹紅的我們就全部都禁止他再說問題在這裡這一次是雲林查出來嘛雲林是人家檢舉嘛所以你說你邊境你海關要進來你這幾年都有驗嗎?這第一個問題"},{"start":6866.932,"end":6884.631,"text":"第二問題,藥師沒有人檢舉,這件事情又沒人挑起來,就繼續吃?確實是需要全民監督,因為我們的檢驗在邊境不可能百分之百,我們再怎麼做都沒有辦法到百分之百你是不是完全沒有在檢驗?我們每一年都有驗,像去年我們驗的就有87件"},{"start":6886.471,"end":6886.611,"text":"所以你們"},{"start":6905.819,"end":6932.902,"text":"我們美國進,我們就進,但是中央這邊不該積極,那我們現在各縣市政府都非常的努力,小年來的妻兒園大家都很認真,這要敢鼓勵,要敢獎勵啦,要鼓勵,你就是說裝上地方,像部長講的,要合作嘛,所以這個不能有互相在那邊推脫,在那邊塞進去,這完全不行喔,"},{"start":6934.301,"end":6955.527,"text":"有嗎有這個 有有齁 是明天是婦女節啦婦女節 三八婦女節這是要很快樂的 孩子要很快樂的這個營養午餐什麼倫巴的 孩子都在吃這些東西部長說的我聽下去他說孩子他就是吃比較辣的東西所以有可能比較沒汙量那但是要還是要小心不要"},{"start":6956.983,"end":6972.881,"text":"婦女節明天就變樣了好不好這個很重要我看食藥署不夠不夠認真好那再來請崇良兄這個第一梯"},{"start":6974.249,"end":6991.803,"text":"就是上次第8屆的時候那個康照桌康照桌這個署長的時候就以前叫做PVS嘛這個是根據健保法46條衍生出來藥價那這個第一批做到現在10年喔差不多喔10年喔"},{"start":6996.241,"end":7013.721,"text":"國產藥藥廠在幹掉進口也沒問題藥借也沒問題衣蓋也沒問題賠償六百萬也沒辦法吃這個方這個辦法是不是該廢止或者是要重新檢討可以玩得差不多了啦"},{"start":7015.525,"end":7040.28,"text":"跟委員報告這個第一梯是從102年開始實施的它最主要當時候提出來是要解決第一個是藥價差當時候初步的剛啟動這個機制的時候一年的藥價差大概有30%為了要解決這個藥價差同時也不要每年的調動的幅度太大所以才訂出一個目標制讓它調整的幅度不要那麼大"},{"start":7041.341,"end":7062.954,"text":"幾年下來大概現在藥價差已經縮小到差不多24、25%那麼也需要到整個要來檢討的時候所以委員的指教我們從去年就開始跟大家在討論應該今年上半年我會提出一些法規的修訂我要這裡要說明一下我是做第一線的重症醫師"},{"start":7065.66,"end":7075.133,"text":"什麼以藥養醫啦什麼藥價差很多啦我跟大家報告我第一線我才做重症我們現在的藥價差搞不好連10%、15%都很難"},{"start":7079.819,"end":7103.754,"text":"現在每年被砍藥一直砍一直砍我們現在根本不會去care藥價差這一塊我想大的醫院或許像長庚體系像北醫體系他的盡量非常大可以用價量來製衡或許他們的藥價才會多一點但是你說基層診所這裡要替他們講講話基層診所要去買藥"},{"start":7107.472,"end":7116.98,"text":"跟健保價的合價是一樣的,甚至於比健保價的合價還高,這樣一個心力不整藥,要健保合價合一點點,然後他們要買要買,比他高。所以不要汙名化我們醫界,這裡我要替他們講話。"},{"start":7130.56,"end":7141.781,"text":"那再來我們一天到晚說停藥啦、COVID的關係啦、打仗的關係所以有些藥都進不來那我要這裡要跟署長講"},{"start":7143.339,"end":7163.774,"text":"我們的用賢明藥的藥我們也同意那賢明藥進來有本國的賢明藥有進口的賢明藥那我們對本國的賢明藥有沒有信心的第一個第二個如果有信心的話要如何保障賢明藥第三個我們的"},{"start":7165.275,"end":7178.425,"text":"學民要的原料台灣有沒有在開發如果開發的話我們真的要保護不然的話真的打起仗來或是封鎖起來我們現在很多原料都從中國大陸跟印度進來的"},{"start":7179.753,"end":7207.375,"text":"所以如果到時候一停那怎麼辦?跟委員報告我們已經在研議中接下來會修訂這個支付標準那在定價的時候如果用到的是臺灣製造的原料藥可以加到20%最高的價格那另外如果是在臺灣製造的學民藥那我們會看他的那個藥證的章數還有他的這個臨床使用缺口最高可以加到15%"},{"start":7209.683,"end":7209.946,"text":"主席"},{"start":7211.994,"end":7240.593,"text":"那所以你有保護的機制啦不要一天到晚停藥一天到晚沒有藥用這個是很糟糕我去年給大家統計一下我們那個體系的藥就缺了21種21種就真的是藥廠缺藥所以我們對這個非常敏感那這另外一個問題就是以前用PVS就是用Price Volume Survey那你現在用DET這差不多都大同小異啦"},{"start":7242.518,"end":7270.353,"text":"這個還要改變嗎?我今天有一個提案要廢止我們重來不過跟委員報告這個是牽涉到整個健保的總額因為每年的健保的總額有一定的成長那麼第一梯是它的目標藥費支出的成長是跟著總額的成長浮動所以如果說這個藥費的第一梯制度"},{"start":7271.013,"end":7296.703,"text":"目標沒有的時候那怎麼樣去適當的管控這個藥費的成長避免排擠到醫療費用這個也是需要來一併思考的還有這裡我要跟署長報告的就是說我給你請教我們一直講說藥會佔了我們健保費用的25%差不多25、26%如果沒有這個調整前的話是到28%"},{"start":7299.241,"end":7307.615,"text":"為什麼我們的藥費的比例佔比會那麼高是因為我們其他的醫療行為的價格太低啦"},{"start":7308.533,"end":7329.871,"text":"就是說點數太低在國外、在美國、在日本他們不太去care藥費所佔的比例那因為台灣便宜啦,大家都很便宜開桌也便宜、醫生也便宜,包括你也很便宜所以這樣是不對的一定要讓這些醫生做醫生要做的有時候做有時候要做的那這樣"},{"start":7330.812,"end":7330.832,"text":"致詢"},{"start":7351.343,"end":7356.225,"text":"所以部長你也是臨床醫師轉過來我們的署長你也是臨床醫師、急診醫師所以要如何讓這個醫界的"},{"start":7381.429,"end":7397.798,"text":"有價量要同等所以這塊要往上加我完全不反對你這個藥品的第一梯什麼要重新檢討但是這個地方的一定要當然volume增加這個很重要不然你當臨床醫師這裡追臨床醫療這樣是"},{"start":7402.215,"end":7426.3,"text":"這目前我們也是在想辦法改善當中那整個健保的基金我們看能不能適度的予以擴充大概是這位不行的就用公務預算來挹注公務預算也是挹注到健保所以我剛剛講是健保基金不夠就是整個volume要增加不用怕大家一起努力好不好謝謝"},{"start":7431.181,"end":7434.063,"text":"好 我們謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢好 接著我們請王一鳴委員質詢好 謝謝主席那我們請部長跟食藥署署長部長請還有署長"},{"start":7464.466,"end":7478.871,"text":"這次蘇丹紅事件我覺得它不只是一個系統性事件而且還是一個重大實案事件為什麼本席要說它是重大這次整個輻射的範圍坦白講是非常的大"},{"start":7479.611,"end":7483.513,"text":"食藥署本來是預定這個禮拜一你們說你們會查完結果昨天對外說沒有辦法那也告訴大家說不保證市場沒有問題所以本席已經看到這次的蘇丹紅事件他的規模可能會有點像2013年的毒澱粉事件"},{"start":7500.063,"end":7519.92,"text":"就是說所波及的很多的這些食品其實滲透的範圍非常的廣泛所以在這樣的一個情況底下我有兩個具體的建議第一個具體的建議因為是重大食安事件目前我們看到16個縣市是由地方政府他主動發起說這個"},{"start":7522.423,"end":7545.737,"text":"暫時禁用辣椒粉暫時停止辣椒粉進到營養午餐不管他用了多少但是先禁用我覺得這個是一個對的我看到有一些地方政府有點後知後覺包括像嘉義縣政府教育局他說什麼他說我們沒有問題的品項流入嘉義縣所以可以不用"},{"start":7547.109,"end":7563.9,"text":"兩位敢保證嗎沒有問題的品項流入嘉義縣昨天你們公布的就有兩家廠商各有3612公斤跟2439公斤兩家食品廠這個時候誰敢保證沒有蘇丹紅色素流入任何一個縣市部長你敢保證嗎"},{"start":7566.447,"end":7584.158,"text":"當然因為它銷到哪一個縣市去的話,我們還是要循線去追查是啊,還在追查中啊,所以我有點擔心的就是說,各縣市的教育人員他們的判斷有點失準那有的縣市人員竟然說,我們那個有問題的都已經下架了,所以呢我們這個縣市沒問題"},{"start":7586.9,"end":7607.901,"text":"連衛福部都不敢保證現在市場的產品就是不敢保證市場上面沒問題但是有的教育人員竟然說我們這個管制我們沒問題我覺得不可以各行其事所以第一個我具體給部長的建議因為這是重大系統性的食安事件所以有一致性的標準不要讓各個縣市他們各自解讀"},{"start":7608.462,"end":7629.204,"text":"而這件事情更沒有藍綠線式的問題我覺得應該就是一致性的標準就像剛剛部長你講的因為辣椒粉學校營養午餐它不見得使用很大量就是因為這樣子也不會有任何的影響那你直接這一段時間在你們還未查明之前我們就把它禁掉是不是讓所有的家長更安心"},{"start":7630.117,"end":7642.04,"text":"部長你覺得有沒有道理這是可以考慮的因為我剛剛講過嘛因為在血統的部分的話其實吃辣的並不是一個很普遍的習慣對但是他可能還是會誤食所以我覺得啦本期具體件我當然也會有領提我們來討論我主張應該因為它是重大系統性的食安事件暫停一段時間也不會對任何的這個營養午餐供應商產生任何的問題所以我覺得這個是"},{"start":7657.083,"end":7673.954,"text":"讓學童讓家長更安心的一個做法應該全國一致第二個我認為應該比照2013年的這個毒澱粉事件後來衛生署所頒定的這件事情剛剛部長一直說我們是由上而下一直查我們從原料加工到零售"},{"start":7674.574,"end":7694.717,"text":"但是這樣的一個速度坦白講是緩慢的我們到目前查了一個月還有很多的漏網之魚在市面上就是繼續在賣那這件事情我覺得比照2013年毒澱粉事件後來衛生署的處理我覺得很好他就下令要求各個你現在要供應這個辣椒粉"},{"start":7695.197,"end":7714.242,"text":"就是食物的廠商你自行自清就是說本店所使用的辣椒粉不含蘇丹紅色素那業者他可以有兩種做法大型的連鎖店你自己趕快去驗你現在所使用的你要確定你這個本身沒有蘇丹紅色素"},{"start":7714.782,"end":7724.473,"text":"那你透過這種大型的連鎖店他們自己願意自主送驗會加快你的速度昨天本席就接到辦公室就接到這個連鎖的這個早餐店我覺得應該要嘉獎這位人員他說"},{"start":7729.679,"end":7755.624,"text":"他發現他們總公司現在呢就只有告訴他說如果你有用到蘇丹紅就不要用就這樣但是呢他們也沒有一個督導制度也沒有一個強制性的做法那所以他認為現在這樣子只是說用呼籲的這樣子的說法可能會有很多這個食安上面的風險我覺得這一位從業人員真的要獎勵他他自己有這樣的sense"},{"start":7756.444,"end":7775.029,"text":"所以他認為說像是這些聯鎖加盟的業者他們應該要發揮業者的這個主動的精神那他現在發現說有的地方政府他反映這件事情他就說那這個就是等上面通知啊他們是等時要數你們公告之後哪些有問題他才可以再往下查"},{"start":7775.609,"end":7793.789,"text":"所以剛剛也有委員在說那我們現在後市場主動去查驗的量夠不夠就現有的產品或者是說它本身是這一種加盟店的店我們主動去查驗看起來沒有現在都是等著食藥署公告上游廠商之後從這邊往下查那所以本期具體建議就是說其實可以比照2013年的這樣的做法"},{"start":7797.593,"end":7824.04,"text":"讓大型的這一些供應的食品廠自主再去加驗然後去貼公告本店就是經過你有拿到那個證書就是說你使用你可以繼續使用你這個含有辣椒的產品但是他不含蘇丹紅我覺得這個是一個加快速度的做法那另外一個也讓下游的這一些廠商他可以往上去要求就是你今天供應商你要供應給我對不對你出去證明"},{"start":7825.24,"end":7854.66,"text":"證明說你的辣椒粉不含蘇丹紅所以他也可以拿著上游的廠商給他這個證明因為他店比較小他不可能自己驗就是說你上面你要供應給我的中韓商你就出去這個證明我就可以貼出來這個在座我不曉得大家有多少人經歷那個當時那個毒澱粉事件後來你去看那個珍珠奶茶那個肉圓店小到小吃攤他都會掛一個公告他在告訴消費者說本店不使用申訂希爾酸"},{"start":7855.22,"end":7875.691,"text":"所以我覺得這個才是一個我們目前可以加快速度的做法我很怕你們繼續這樣由上而下慢慢查坦白講再一個月可能查不完量太大了報告委員其實一開始的時候我們就有這一個措施我們也通知了一些食品業者那我想這我們宣導不夠我們再加強宣導就讓他們自主檢驗"},{"start":7876.431,"end":7894.336,"text":"而且你要要求 而且給他們一段時間當時是加上你們的行政裁罰就是說如果你公告了之後再被驗出來也是有事情的就是說你等於是雙重然後呢 因為這次爆發的我發現業者的自主查驗做得真的很不好幾家大廠"},{"start":7895.296,"end":7912.531,"text":"我就想說如果上面的供應商是有問題的我們不是食安法有規定嗎你達到一定規模的你是要自主去檢驗你這些原料半成品的結果我發現他們都沒有做啊他們都是被動等你們通知那你們通知有的還第一時間否認說沒有我的沒問題然後再突然又改口說我的有問題有的還是上市上櫃"},{"start":7918.737,"end":7942.055,"text":"那個你們回去查你們針對上市上櫃的要求他有的還要自設實驗室就是那個規模結果我覺得現在好像通通都沒有落實所以守護食安政府有絕對的責任但是如果整個食安要做好你必須把業者他的這種自主性也要拉進來而且要求他要到位"},{"start":7942.475,"end":7970.811,"text":"要不然我們的這個食安你看這一次這個系統性的風暴一出現之後你就會發現說食藥署你的人力加上地方的人力你這樣子由上而下一直查那個的速度是不夠的所以由下而上就是在加這一道力量你才可以用最快的時間把這一次的蘇丹紅的風暴就是盡快的收尾要不然你們說這個禮拜我就會查完我敢保證啦"},{"start":7972.092,"end":7997.831,"text":"還沒有啦因為這一次的這個辣椒粉它的特殊性太高了隨隨便便就是大家都會用到它擴散的我們台灣這麼多小吃其實都有可能已經沾染到了那你現在只能就是把它劃一個最後就是處理你所有的邊境已經都禁止了那你現在就是要把已經在市場流竄的這一些趕快透過加入業者的自主檢驗"},{"start":7998.792,"end":8007.606,"text":"然後雙重的讓這一個趕快就是可以順利的收尾部長你同意這我們就來加強這個推動跟宣導"},{"start":8008.612,"end":8026.09,"text":"好,不是宣導喔,還要加上你的行政要求喔,你們回去看一下當時毒澱粉事件,它最後的處理方法本期是覺得這一次的事件跟那個有相近性,當時澱粉也是我們應用性非常廣這一次是辣椒粉,也是使用的非常廣泛,所以當時2013年的這個最後衛生署想出來的這個處理模式"},{"start":8030.755,"end":8030.855,"text":"謝謝王委員、謝謝部長"},{"start":8066.602,"end":8067.102,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8085.544,"end":8085.905,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8528.476,"end":8552.393,"text":"好 那我們繼續開會接下來我們請圖全級委員進行諮詢好 那請一下我們薛部長好 有請部長"},{"start":8557.837,"end":8584.149,"text":"委員好部長那今天因為今天我看今天大家也是針對我們蘇丹紅的事件因為媒體一直在報導那記得在那天委員會的時候有詢問就是說這個部分其實在去年我們邊境查驗就已經查獲9件查獲9件那我說為什麼行政院3次的食安匯報還有一次的我們食安專報總檢討都沒有提到這個問題"},{"start":8587.31,"end":8607.73,"text":"那我記得我們部長好像回覆說,你說這個問題是需要累積的,是不是這樣?對,因為其實是七件啦,去年是七件,七件是分布在不同的月份那我們納悶的是,其實他短短不到一年的時間就已經查獲了九件,那九件這樣子累積數量還不夠嗎?"},{"start":8609.582,"end":8629.507,"text":"對,所以到後來我們就是變成100%的抽菸的原因就在所以今天我也是提醒一下部長像這個你看即使已經查過那麼多件當下如果我們趕快超前部署趕快處理我覺得這個蘇丹雄事件應該不會爆發到這種程度前面第一時間沒有處理好你看後來到後市場端"},{"start":8630.167,"end":8643.741,"text":"現在到已經一發不可收拾而且到底有多少食品我相信一定是陸陸續續爆發已經變成不是辣椒粉咖哩粉連很多的食品只要有染色顏色的問題我看都有摻這個蘇丹紅"},{"start":8646.183,"end":8660.17,"text":"所以我們現在準備要做的一件事情就是我們會把特點像蘇丹紅這類的不應該出現在食品裡面的這種工業燃料、工業原料的話我們會把它列為所謂的高危的這一個"},{"start":8663.753,"end":8669.276,"text":"那我想請問一下你們民進黨高層有沒有受益說我們520之後我們部長還有我們的食藥署署長有沒有機會繼續留任?署長是事務官那所以520會影響到的是我"},{"start":8689.624,"end":8714.896,"text":"那部長你自己的看法呢?所以部長還是如果有機會還是繼續留任嗎?那署長有沒有意願繼續留任?還是看上面的意思?因為今天國民黨有召開記者會要求我們吳署長應該要下台負責我想了解一下署長對自己這件事情的看法"},{"start":8715.814,"end":8716.414,"text":"圖委員好"},{"start":8744.265,"end":8763.352,"text":"市署長我最近因為針對那個陸配入籍的問題有影響到健保的問題那我想請問一下我們外籍人士在臺灣他來有持居留文件之後他什麼條件下可以參加健保"},{"start":8765.134,"end":8786.668,"text":"我們是根據這個健保法第9條的規定如果有居留證明文件之後那麼分成三種樣態一種是如果是受僱受聘的話那麼立刻就可以加入健保沒關係我們簡單回答那正常有居留文件數滿6個月就可以參加健保如果是受僱的話馬上就可以加入健保"},{"start":8787.108,"end":8815.903,"text":"那如果沒有受雇的情形下的話就要有6個月那我請問一下這些外籍人士他有包含這個入港澳嗎?就是像大陸啊澳門啊香港這些都是履照辦理所以所有的外籍人士包含入配包含入港澳這些都是在外籍人士所以他正常來講規範都是一樣的嘛"},{"start":8816.463,"end":8833.952,"text":"我們是在健保法第8條規定具有中華民國國籍我國國籍第9條是沒有國籍的所以這個參加健保並不會因為他陸配入籍6年或4年其實他的規範是一樣的只要來台居留滿他的規範是一樣的對不對"},{"start":8835.472,"end":8863.733,"text":"這個條件是一個是居留證明文件那這個陸配的並不會因為陸配6年4年的關係影響陸配沒有影響對所以都是一樣的對好那所以我們就說陸港澳及外籍人士只要持有居留文件並在台居留滿6個月他的條件是一樣都可以參加健保而且我們的準總統當選人賴清德之前也有講他說健保牽涉的是我們的健康人權"},{"start":8864.594,"end":8893.68,"text":"所以人權是沒有國界的那當然包含我們的外配陸配等等他居然已經嫁來臺灣我覺得嫁來臺灣他就是我們的家人那居然是我們的家人我們就不應該要有所歧視對不對目前的話外籍配偶的條件都一致沒有錯對嘛所以基本上他這個參加健保還有我們賴清德有講這個人權無國界然後我覺得說嫁來臺灣大家都是平等的對待那所以我們"},{"start":8894.96,"end":8922.327,"text":"針對我們民進黨政府他在兩公約第三次國家報告的時候都會講大陸配偶來台取得身份證的年限調整與外籍配偶一致已經拧聚臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第17條的新修正草案現在就等立法院完成這個立法的程序所以這個當初就是我們民進黨提出的那我們來講政黨在政策的"},{"start":8923.007,"end":8941.404,"text":"延續上是沒有分政黨的所以當初民進黨提出這個還沒有完成那我請問一下我們國民黨接續完成哪裡有什麼不對不過跟委員報告剛剛講的是在配偶本身那麼權益不論是哪個國籍大家權益相當不過呢是最主要是在"},{"start":8942.385,"end":8964.741,"text":"陸配的依親的規定上呢那麼跟其他是有不一樣那依親的那一塊確實因為年紀都是比較大的那對健保的影響那當然就是會涉及到繳少用多的問題所以我說這個目標其實大家是一致的嘛既然嫁來台灣就是我們家人我們就不應該有所歧視嘛那我請問一下據我們"},{"start":8965.862,"end":8972.794,"text":"署長你這邊來了解一般外籍配偶來台他大部分的年齡 大部分年齡大概在什麼年齡層"},{"start":8975.113,"end":8995.032,"text":"當然都是比較年輕的啦這個根據當然在健保裡面是不會去特別去註記你是外籍配偶啦但是勾結起來當然他的這個對啊所以一般就是比較年輕的嘛那我們以正常常態我們可以知道一般比較年輕力壯其實他看病的機會數是會比年長人少"},{"start":8996.243,"end":9008.57,"text":"比例來講以我們現在就入籍配偶來講他現在的繳的保費跟醫療的支出大概是平衡的對啊所以我的意思是說還有就是說醫輕的問題像我們醫輕"},{"start":9011.551,"end":9036.617,"text":"據我們了解他這來台一清一年的名額也大概只有60個所以我們針對最近有一些很多的問題尤其我們民進黨政府還有我們這個主管單位我們常常針對假新聞假訊息我們都說要澄清要來打擊這假新聞假訊息可是我剛剛問了很多的問題目前這很多的假新聞假訊息都在流竄"},{"start":9037.577,"end":9059.717,"text":"不知道我們健保署針對這些很多的假新聞假訊息你們看到之後有沒有針對這些做一些調整跟委員報告現在的正義點主要可能在醫輕的部分因為醫輕剛剛也提到他的年齡上是比較高的醫療的使用率是高但是跟國人不同的是他是從加入健保之後才開始繳款"},{"start":9060.317,"end":9069.149,"text":"有關係我希望我們比照辦理來有時候主管單位針對假新聞假訊息我覺得還是要提出嚴正的說明那我們針對現在我們健保砍這個藥價我請問一下我們這個去年也爆發這個缺藥風波"},{"start":9077.66,"end":9102.414,"text":"那現在我們要調降這個藥價那會不會也造成大缺藥之亂跟我們報告這一次調價的時候我們都有通知廠商那麼可以在3月8號之前提出來如果有成本不敷那我們會重新調整到目前為止只有5個藥品提出來而已那我們也會暫時不調整它據我們了解現在好像調降的大部分都是慢性用藥對不對"},{"start":9103.234,"end":9103.334,"text":"好,謝謝委員好,謝謝"},{"start":9130.674,"end":9134.256,"text":"主席好,有請薛部長還有吳署長好,請薛部長、吳署長部長好、署長好"},{"start":9159.244,"end":9181.895,"text":"我們今天要談的就是缺藥問題嘛那我來自醫界所以對於這個缺藥問題也是感同身受不過我想大家更重視的就是如何能夠解決這樣的困境跟問題不過本席也認同也知道說其實健保缺藥的這個問題大家把它歸咎在健保藥價調整"},{"start":9184.216,"end":9207.691,"text":"這個不是唯一的因素這可能是其中一個因素可是並不是唯一的因素那我們也從這個貴組委的報告裡面知道其實缺藥的原因是相當相當的多包括我們目前所能夠了解的生產問題、供應問題還有國內需求增加的部分尤其是在後疫情的時代"},{"start":9208.291,"end":9221.909,"text":"很多的這些民眾尤其是兒童們會因為免疫負債造成某一些藥物的需求增加除了一些慢性病以外那這一部分因為三呼吸道感染所需要的這個藥物"},{"start":9223.629,"end":9246.529,"text":"某些抗生素真的是特別增加包括像這個部長很辛苦受到影響所以我想應該是通盤的來了解那如果針對某一類比較會容易造成這個市場需要而受影響的藥物希望能夠有更有效的方式來做處理所以的確缺藥是我們要非常重視而且要去努力解決的部分"},{"start":9247.691,"end":9261.827,"text":"我們也了解藥品短缺因素是非常非常多元的其中有一項就是會不會藥商有預期的心理希望能夠囤積原料用下一次要做調整的部分"},{"start":9262.427,"end":9288.939,"text":"那我們當然不希望不希望說藥商在這種情形之下他有進口的這個原料或者是生產的原料而不去生產那其實我們很希望說落實藥品的原料的進口管理是要有一個更好的方式請問一下部長或署長針對國內藥商進口原物料的相關數據這邊有沒有適當的掌握尤其是好請"},{"start":9291.664,"end":9292.685,"text":"囤積的可能性大概不大,因為這些都有效期的問題"},{"start":9311.119,"end":9337.247,"text":"是 了解 所以我們也希望這部分不是一個因素之一啦 能夠造成這種不當的影響的因素 盡量把它排除那我們如何針對這個有效解決缺藥的部分本席有下列的一些想法 包括強化藥品的這個供應的主動監控那其實在去年監察院的報告裡面就告訴我們說"},{"start":9338.787,"end":9357.034,"text":"藥商是否能依據必要通報來處置?檢察院發現,欠缺主動監測、查核和管理機制。不知道到目前為止已經半年的時間,有沒有再擬定改善計畫?"},{"start":9359.086,"end":9374.993,"text":"這部分的話齁那其實是在必要藥品我們的品齁那個一共是多少的品項?有481 481項的品項這我們有做但是全國在用的藥那幾萬項的話大概沒有辦法全部都去看啦"},{"start":9375.553,"end":9391.08,"text":"是,所以如果已經有一些計畫的話那能不能夠提供免息素面資料以作為後續的追蹤那我們也知道其實推展國產的學民藥是一個未來的期待"},{"start":9391.98,"end":9392.16,"text":"請問目前所謂"},{"start":9409.76,"end":9433.233,"text":"預注適當資源有沒有安排哪一些的適當資源在裡面?該委員報告這有關於我們在鼓勵學民藥的這一個部分的話當然也會牽涉到經濟部經濟部他對於這個比方說CDMO或其他的這個我們國內的藥廠的一些鼓勵的措施在那個"},{"start":9434.474,"end":9448.541,"text":"也相關的法規裡面有那在衛福部這邊的話大概就是用健保的這個方法在健保上面的一些規範來做處理也就是說我們給予這個新發展的學民藥我們會給他這個比較好的一個合價的一個"},{"start":9457.705,"end":9458.706,"text":"再過來就是有關於庫存的部分"},{"start":9480.999,"end":9494.838,"text":"我們也了解建制中盤藥商的藥品監測機制是有他主動監測的部分請問除了主動監測以外我們還有沒有其他可以主動的作為"},{"start":9496.48,"end":9517.922,"text":"這部分是一個我們新的措施,那要處理的對象主要是社區的藥局還有我們一些診所因為這些診所和社區藥局大概很少能夠直接跟廠商直接訂貨,因為量不夠大"},{"start":9518.442,"end":9538.31,"text":"所以很多都是透由中盤商來做處理所以中盤商他就會有調度的這種可能性所以在這裡的話我們新的措施裡面就是我們去監測中盤商那哪一些藥如果被通報這一個有缺藥的時候我們就去看中盤商的"},{"start":9541.155,"end":9548.892,"text":"中環商進出狀況沒有異常的話,我們會請中環商就直接去分配,因為大概就會分配出問題"},{"start":9550.066,"end":9569.714,"text":"OK 好 謝謝部長的說明和這方面的努力那我們再過來可以瞭解藥品供應通報處理中心那這一部分不知道這個中心有沒有被賦予什麼樣的具體任務因為去年就是2023年4月11號貴單位為了要因應全球性缺藥問題而啟動了這個通報中心"},{"start":9572.815,"end":9599.233,"text":"所以這個中心我們所看到的就是這是一個平台那把五個平台的這個網路連結在這個我們的網路上面我們看到的就是包括有西藥供應平台、中藥還有公費傳染疫苗、兒童困難取得、罕病等等那這部分不曉得有沒有具體任務要透過這個處理中心來處理哪一些的事情"},{"start":9600.827,"end":9621.092,"text":"這部分的話那每一個這五大類的話都有一些特殊性的比方說那個罕見疾病的這個部分的話這物流中心他會去監測到底我們整個國內的剩下存量是不是對於這罕病所需要的是夠不夠如果不夠的話就要去採購那"},{"start":9626.819,"end":9640.771,"text":"業務比較大的應該是在西藥的這個部分是的確那我們可以往下看可以瞭解說目前這個平臺的運作狀況西藥供應平臺的確是隨時在滾動對不起我再多兩分"},{"start":9642.208,"end":9664.344,"text":"有在做這個即時更新可是中藥到目前一年都沒有更新還有其他的部分所以我們很期待這個運作還可以能夠更及時去反映出這個供應的這些問題我們可以往下看就知道說依照這個西藥供應平台他已經很努力的在作業那也透過這個通"},{"start":9665.825,"end":9679.291,"text":"包括缺藥來執行相關透過食藥署的評估進入到有替代方案、無替代方案還有其他廠商的這個輸入來辦理如果有缺藥的時候可以作業的模式那我們可以再往下看"},{"start":9680.575,"end":9702.848,"text":"那其中有一個問題,一個實務的困境就是當藥品短缺現象透過這個平台去緩解以後那曾經為了要緩解幫助緩解的這個廠商他如果提供了藥物那這種狀況造成說新的要來幫助緩解這個藥物不足的部分結果他進來了"},{"start":9704.249,"end":9704.689,"text":"我是請食藥署署長來回答"},{"start":9728.066,"end":9755.893,"text":"因為通報的業者其實都會跟我們說他大概是有多少時間他需要等於是有一些藥品的短缺所以我們在徵求專案製造或專案輸入的時候也會保障這一些來協助我們的業者他們不至於做了以後結果本來在賣那個藥品進來了就沒有人要買他的所以我們有這樣的時間之內不會讓那個藥品再輸入就是你已經跟我說不能輸入了所以已經有其他出來要做專案輸入的"},{"start":9756.673,"end":9757.293,"text":"好,那了解了,謝謝"},{"start":9784.056,"end":9791.521,"text":"好,我們謝謝王振旭委員的質詢接下來我們請林德福委員質詢謝謝主席,是不是請薛部長好,有請部長"},{"start":9811.397,"end":9835.356,"text":"委員好部長你好部長因為麻疹傳染力高那被我國歸類在第二類的傳染病可藉由空氣包括灰末傳染那根據媒體的報導世界衛生組織這個在今年2月示警除非採取緊急防範的措施否則到了今年年底"},{"start":9836.337,"end":9853.912,"text":"全球有差不多超過半數的國家會面臨麻疹的疫情那爆發的風險將達到高或非常高的程度那請問薛部長我國今年面臨麻疹疫情爆發的風險比例"},{"start":9855.316,"end":9856.837,"text":"所以說我希望說衛福部要有所準備去因應"},{"start":9879.957,"end":9907.217,"text":"所以在這個部分我們主要的是疫苗要開疫苗來去做阻擋那目前的公費疫苗大概庫存還有5萬支那我們優先是會打在醫護人員因為我知道那個當然是應該優先因為最近本席的選區裡面包括中和永和有病例發生那曾有專家建立1981年後出生的"},{"start":9908.118,"end":9911.081,"text":"請問衛福部目前麻疹疫苗供應北北基桃醫療單位的情況"},{"start":9929.679,"end":9943.146,"text":"目前如何目前的話我剛剛報告過目前的公費疫苗大概庫存還有5萬支只有5萬支而已但是在封建檢驗中的有6萬所以加起來會有11萬那以北北基島應該的這個醫護人員的使用"},{"start":9946.167,"end":9958.784,"text":"議務人員對那未來是否會有缺貨的問題呢?你們有沒有去規劃?所以我們現在正在爭取那國際的這個疫苗廠商那我希望他們要及早供應給我們這個我們正在跟他們洽談"},{"start":9961.468,"end":9980.689,"text":"因為這個我是擔心說會不會排擠一些新生兒接種這個麻疹的疫苗因為你用在醫護人員身上那當然還有一些必要的那這個新生兒有時候需要接種這些麻疹疫苗的時候他等於是會排擠到他們本來可以用的"},{"start":9981.129,"end":9983.37,"text":"若民眾要是有感染麻疹,依目前整個治療方式以支持"},{"start":10009.636,"end":10010.096,"text":"這部分的話是"},{"start":10026.543,"end":10052.698,"text":"因為本期以公會流感疫苗為例去年採購數量為698萬劑但是病毒株不同所以WHO建議每年都要施打一次反觀麻疹疫苗的效率注射是15年後才開始下降"},{"start":10053.618,"end":10069.721,"text":"接種一次它的保護力可以有這個好多好多年不需要每年環顧的去施打那請問衛福部有沒有考量要以專案的方式來處理全民啊補接種這些麻疹疫苗有沒有"},{"start":10070.982,"end":10093.05,"text":"目前的話全民去補接種的話是比較不切實際的因為這還是有疫情的高低起伏的一個問題但是現在的小孩子他的常規疫苗的施打裡面其實麻疹疫苗這個是算在裡面的我希望衛福部在這方面要及早的去因應去規劃好不好好謝謝"},{"start":10094.854,"end":10106.777,"text":"好 謝謝林德福委員的質詢那等一下委員會等林淑芬委員質詢完畢之後我們處理臨時提案麻煩通知各位委員接下來我們請王紅薇委員進行質詢好 謝謝主席我請薛部長好 請部長"},{"start":10124.613,"end":10129.294,"text":"今天在經濟委員會有關電價上漲的專案報告大家都非常非常關心電價上漲會引發通膨、物價上漲"},{"start":10148.678,"end":10165.943,"text":"那我想請教部長你知不知道在我們各類消費物價上漲大家都知道食物類是上漲最多的食物類以外排名第二的類別您知道嗎這我倒是不清楚你不知道"},{"start":10167.671,"end":10179.101,"text":"所以我說現在整個的行政院對於未來可能物價上漲尤其電價帶動的通膨的壓力跟危機現在是麻木不仁的狀態好我給你看一個圖片"},{"start":10182.616,"end":10208.05,"text":"這個圖片不是我做的是我們國發會這兩天他也來這個立法院報告可以看到一月份CPI各類指數年增率食物類上漲最多排名第二的就是醫藥保健類了所以就是說在民眾整個的對於物價上漲的壓力裡面醫藥保健類是其中非常重要的一環可是啊部長"},{"start":10209.051,"end":10230.752,"text":"你們卻非常天才地選在這個時候要取消掛號費的上限我真的要請問你們到底要逼死誰啊怎麼會在這個時候這個節骨眼去取消掛號費上限然後說沒有關係啊你們各縣市啊自己去決定啊"},{"start":10232.613,"end":10255.191,"text":"部長,請問這個決策你有跟院長報告過嗎?這是我們本來做的所以不用跟部長報告那我們物價督導匯報的主持人應該是副院長因為這個取消上限也都不用跟副院長報告並不一定就是會漲價這要把它認出來什麼叫不會漲價?現在都已經在漲價了你到底在說什麼?來我們看"},{"start":10256.732,"end":10258.054,"text":"現在不都在漲價嗎?為什麼這些醫師一直不停的遊說呢?說我們成本升高了,不可以再管我們的掛號費了"},{"start":10269.795,"end":10293.375,"text":"你看現在包含民間監督、健保聯盟說未來可能連掛澳費都繳不出來沒有生命的權利然後蘇伊鳳醫師說快倒閉的醫生診所不可能漲價自救沒人選的賠錢科也不可能因此熱門只是打假球然後很多民眾說你主動去吃飯去政府化嗎這邊還沒有什麼消極會消極會也說他"},{"start":10295.917,"end":10318.277,"text":"一般來講當醫院或診所你的行政成本升高可以容許你可以提高但是你現在完全取消上限是什麼意思我們現在有一些私人的醫院這個掛號費是上千兩千多塊所以老實講我為什麼今天一定要來我是覺得我們今天政府是怎麼回事啊"},{"start":10320.8,"end":10331.895,"text":"經濟部要漲電價然後這個國發會已經告訴你了我們現在呢今年的這個CPI一定會超過2%2%是全世界認為一個物價通膨的一個指數超過就是物價通膨了"},{"start":10338.264,"end":10356.174,"text":"1.8再加上物價上漲然後你現在醫藥保健類已經是排名第二了這個時候你給我在那邊說漲就漲部長部長我要求我要求你收回成命啊你為一些廣大的這些消費者好好想一想好不好"},{"start":10357.284,"end":10383.93,"text":"他們面臨有一些他們是長期在那邊看病的你以為他們可以轉來轉去啊?我們沒有政府了嗎?我們是完全資本主義了嗎?我們對於物價上漲一點感覺都沒有嗎?我們這個政府麻木不仁嗎?認為這個物價上漲沒有關係嗎?然後你們自己衛福部自己做決定我今天會覺得奇怪,院長現在你們是整個整個的看守內閣然後是怎麼樣?想去"},{"start":10384.79,"end":10405.239,"text":"想去數饅頭的數饅頭想要去求官的求官怎麼會對一個醫藥保健類上長如此無感你無感民眾很有感啊民眾很痛苦所以部長我在這邊正式要求你們要收回成名你可以去研究怎麼樣比較合理而不是說我通通不管了我殺手不管了我要政府幹什麼啊"},{"start":10411.321,"end":10414.703,"text":"不能這樣講那你為什麼要取消三線有這樣子取消三線嗎你除了跟診所醫院去討論你有跟消費者討論過嗎你跟哪一個民間團體討論過"},{"start":10427.231,"end":10431.857,"text":"有跟看病的病人討論過嗎?你是醫生診所的醫院的衛福部嗎?怎麼會到這種地步?所以我這兩天看到這個覺得太莫名其妙了所以請你去跟陳介仁院長報告"},{"start":10445.672,"end":10474.548,"text":"你們把國發會找來你們把鄭文燦找來你們把所有跟物價相關經濟部找來說如果這個會造成物價更加上漲的話我們是不是應該改變我們是不是應該收回成命怎麼會政府這麼麻木到時候一定大亂哪有這個樣子我們不要政府啊政府該做的事情就應該要做我們會監測啦這一個瓜匯的情形我跟你講你不做你可能覺得現在沒有選舉你選選你敢做看"},{"start":10475.35,"end":10476.271,"text":"謝謝主席,有請衛福部部長"},{"start":10504.929,"end":10527.97,"text":"好 部長請 水帶著委員好部長你好 我想我本身也是接獲到選情許多的電話一直在跟我們抗議這件事情衛福部你取消掛號費上限這件事情對我們來說基層影響非常深那剛剛聽到部長你一直咳嗽 最近有去看醫生嗎還是看診所沒有 我自己處理"},{"start":10529.051,"end":10556.338,"text":"自己就處理了我想那我要跟你科普一下基本上台中我們的診所掛號費大概150甚至有的會部分減免50那台北就所調查大概250左右那我想就這樣子的掛號費來說我想民間都非常非常的希望衛福部應該重新思考審視廢除這樣子的規定我想政策政府的政策不應該是有錢人才有資格生病雖然這不是本席"},{"start":10556.718,"end":10577.873,"text":"今天總要質詢的一個內容範圍但是我要表達我的抗議那另外呢我想跟本席有一個重要議題想跟你探討一下部長第一梯事辦超過10年遇到缺藥就說要檢討第一梯請問過去10年是否跟藥界討論第一梯的一個檢討事項若有跟誰討論能不能跟現場每位委員來說"},{"start":10580.16,"end":10601.149,"text":"這都每年都有跟這一些藥界在做討論那至於對象是誰我是不是請我們署長來回答好是委員好跟委員報告那麼我們從去年開始就在討論這個第一梯的修正那跟這個九大工協會九大工協會包含進口商的還有在台學民要的大概都有在討論"},{"start":10601.789,"end":10628.562,"text":"那會後是不是可以提供會議紀錄呢?可以可以那我還是要跟您分享我所了解到的一些相關資訊跟你分享那我有幾個時間走想跟你分享106年3月劉建國委員受藥界八大工協會請理事長請託邀集健保署召開協調會我想原本答應但最後會後健保署是反悔那建國委員只好請陳時中部長自己向藥界八大工協會理事長來解釋"},{"start":10631.123,"end":10645.591,"text":"106年4月10日陳時中部長特別宴請八大工協會在北海漁村參宴我想當時參宴就有跟陳時中部長就有說明同意藥界要求近期召開修正的第一批會議"},{"start":10646.631,"end":10668.538,"text":"那108年3月我們也看到有這樣的新聞稿建保署發佈建保署依法調整藥價願積極與藥界檢討第一梯的計算公式我想112年2月27日我們也看到缺藥潮的一直在延燒衛福部又提出短中長期的因應策略在中期的部分食藥署跟健保署也都說要第一梯的檢討"},{"start":10669.778,"end":10693.104,"text":"我想這樣子一連串一直都說要檢討檢討到113年2月27日中國時報的報導健保砍藥價半年後恐缺藥草我想本席就自己本身有去請教過幾位藥界的大佬他們一致的都跟我說DET的事辦至今超過10年從來都沒有正式的跟開會跟藥界討論也沒有調整過我想部長我想請"},{"start":10697.465,"end":10710.935,"text":"聽清楚他們所說的是他們認為從來都沒有跟藥界討論過因此本席不僅要問106年陳時中部長近期所召開的修正研討第一題的會議何時會開會108年積極討論計算公式何時會開會112年食藥署健保署檢討的第一題制度什麼時候會開會"},{"start":10720.121,"end":10738.686,"text":"顯然我個人認為在我所探討的這些藥界大佬他們沒有覺得有一個固定的確定時間僅僅只是官方的一個美化我想這個部分本席希望主席能夠才是請衛福部確定究竟是一個月兩個月三個月還是半年一年還是四年兩年"},{"start":10740.926,"end":10765.733,"text":"來檢討召開這個第一梯的一個會議是不是能夠有一個確切的一個時間能夠建議邀請醫藥界的消費者代表還有相關的團體就召開第一梯的檢討會議創造三贏的第一梯會議讓藥價回到正常的醫療經濟學讓民眾可以用到高品質的藥物最後我想為免除民眾的恐慌請衛夫允諾"},{"start":10767.073,"end":10767.553,"text":"委員我可以回答嗎?"},{"start":10796.216,"end":10819.441,"text":"我稍微說明一下因為剛剛有講到那其實去年有關於第一批的會議已經開了5、6次那最近一次會在1月13日3月13日召開啦所以說有關於會議紀錄我們都可以來做提供至於說開會的時候立委是不是可以參加我想這我們再研議看看"},{"start":10820.936,"end":10823.558,"text":"我可不可以邀請部長跟時署長好請部長跟時署長"},{"start":10852.374,"end":10865.339,"text":"部長辛苦了我們2月26號上個月開的那個藥價的那個調整會議的結果我們新的藥價是什麼時候生效?4月1號"},{"start":10867.901,"end":10893.594,"text":"當然今天召委特別排這個專案報告其實一定有它的意義在我們從各層面聽到各種不同的聲音包括藥師全聯會的黃金順理事長說預估半年後有可能發生缺藥潮也就是我看到媒體媒體在問你說會不會有缺藥的狀況發生部長你的回應說至今還沒接受到任何的資訊"},{"start":10895.035,"end":10911.847,"text":"今天沒有收到任何資訊不代表你藥價調整之後半年不會有問題我這樣講對不對這應該是說因為我們有這樣子一個通報的機制在那裡所以6個月前就必須必要藥品就是要做缺藥的一個通報所以"},{"start":10912.688,"end":10936.74,"text":"我們可以說那些必要的藥品有400多個部長今天專委排這個專案報告也就代表著你過去因為我們每一年都是二月份開藥價調整會議那也差不多如果有調整的話也差不多是類似像4月1號我們為什麼會排這樣的專案會議也就是說過去我們衛福部這個後面缺藥的處理的機制"},{"start":10938.301,"end":10959.91,"text":"顯然是有問題的我為什麼會這樣子說監察院在去年11月份的調查報告也有講啊就是說你的食藥署是勸缺主動稽查的管理機制不只是地區醫院社區醫院還有包括我們社區藥局事實上是有嚴重的缺藥問題這件事情以前沒有發生過"},{"start":10963.251,"end":10965.552,"text":"社區藥局剛好沒有這個藥不叫缺藥社區藥局就沒有買這個我能夠逼他買嗎?"},{"start":10982.761,"end":10988.163,"text":"這個部長你不應該這樣跟我講那我覺得 因為跟地區醫院跟社區醫院溝通部長是你的責任喔施出處方簽之後民眾拿個處方簽到藥局去做調查部長那我就要說你大數據的管理要做得更好啊你應該跟教學醫院、社區醫院、地區醫院所有社區藥局你應該有一個雲端的管理部長"},{"start":11008.21,"end":11009.351,"text":"部長今天身體微漾,你先聽一下委員講"},{"start":11025.222,"end":11041.936,"text":"我覺得在管理系統顯然出現問題不管是社區醫院、社區藥局顯然大家都有可以調整的一個SOP的空間民眾買不到藥是會憤怒的這個憤怒端後面是你要去做承擔我這樣講沒錯吧"},{"start":11043.597,"end":11063.248,"text":"所以我覺得應該有一套更好的管理系統所以去年10月份監察院也提出報告就是說你應該在某一塊某幾塊你要去盡速的去做調整當然去年我也關注到你說有一定的比例要留給社區醫院因為他們採購會有問題那一定的比例包括你在2月24號在媒體採訪的時候你也提出來說我們要統一採購"},{"start":11067.33,"end":11092.768,"text":"那後來又說統一採購可能不是最好的方法這是你去年跟今年講的都不一樣的版本那現在解決的具體做法你可不可以告訴我是什麼本來統一採購就不是一個辦法本來要統一採購去年是你說的啊你去年的你今年的部長打去年的部長都是你說的我沒有要責罵你你可不可以告訴我你具體的解決方案是什麼"},{"start":11094.957,"end":11100.442,"text":"這個所謂的缺藥的話是主要有兩種情形一個是真正缺藥一個是調度的問題"},{"start":11101.314,"end":11125.794,"text":"那在調度的問題我同意有調度的問題所以調度的問題你要怎麼處理調度的問題我們現在是對於基層的這些社區藥局還有這個診所的部分我們藉由去監測中盤商那他的這個藥的進出的情況如果說有這種所謂的通報缺藥過來的話我們就會去檢測這個中盤商部長你後面要書面回答我"},{"start":11128.516,"end":11145.617,"text":"因為我覺得可以用大數據的分析包括近三年疾病跟用藥的趨勢然後未來推估接下來兩年可能熱門用藥的品項你怎麼樣去跟他們互動把大數據管理好那我覺得這是你未來要做的工作我希望可以做得好然後我快速的"},{"start":11146.658,"end":11166.154,"text":"馬整的疫情升溫我們當然我們現在優先因為你現在是控管這些所有可以施打的因為民間想自費買也買不到我尊重你我們現在有123項我們公費接種的對象那MMR的疫苗現在廠商控貨那要優先他優先供貨也會優先供貨給我們機關署"},{"start":11169.036,"end":11194.544,"text":"但是國際藥廠他現在跟我們回答的是說如果要買也排單也要半年後才有貨是典型的有藥但是民間是買不到甚至診所我為什麼這麼說有一些高風險群譬如說他必須常出國或必須跟外國人長期接觸的我們也希望這一類的高風險群有機會我不要說排在公費裡面他們自費但是他們有機會注射到"},{"start":11195.584,"end":11199.588,"text":"這部分的話在智慧疫苗的部分本來就還有一些庫存兩萬多那封面檢驗中的還有兩萬多支那四萬多支如果對這些經常要出國的他是夠啦"},{"start":11214.202,"end":11237.302,"text":"沒關係部長我只是提醒你有這一塊我接受到陳情有這一塊自費那他們也希望有機會他們常出國常接觸外國人去高風險群的國家感染者的國家我希望這一塊他們有機會注射到那這一塊怎麼處理給我一個書面更明確的答覆可能我們會藉由這一些所謂的理由醫院來處理這一塊好的謝謝謝謝部長好謝謝李燕秀委員的資訊"},{"start":11243.342,"end":11261.914,"text":"接下來我們請林淑芬委員進行質詢林委員質詢結束我們處理臨時題案主席各位大家午安了是不是還是請我們薛部長好部長請"},{"start":11266.335,"end":11294.468,"text":"委員好部長其實我還有那個蘇丹紅事件要跟你就教但是因為藥價的問題我跟我們新北市工會也稍微溝通了一下所以有幾個幾個簡單的問題也先再一次的這個反應我必須要說如果幾種藥品缺貨去換藥我覺得對市場或對用藥人來講這個影響這是無法避免的就沒有如果是幾種而已可是如果"},{"start":11295.809,"end":11319.297,"text":"在藥局看到的現象是缺藥而民眾退單的比例高達30%以上那它可能就不是這簡單的幾個問題所以變成換藥草的話那我們的確是要正視這個問題但你們一直講說是缺貨而不是缺藥或者是你們在談說三同等同的狀況就可以治療可是第一線的藥局的確發現"},{"start":11323.14,"end":11338.014,"text":"換藥時,比如說這個血壓藥為例,他們發現患者會反應說用以前的藥大概可以血壓控制維持在110可是你換了藥以後,他總是在怎麼控制都是180所以他只能夠回到大醫院裡面去領原廠藥或是原來的藥,他們的確是觀察到這個現象"},{"start":11344.761,"end":11365.274,"text":"另外一種就是管制性的藥品那因為管制性藥品的用藥人他本身就是很敏感的那你換藥的時候他的確就更敏感有可能是這樣子那特別排斥所以的確我們也有一些藥廠過去做了很多不應該做的事比如說很多年以前我揭發過的"},{"start":11367.475,"end":11367.996,"text":"所以我今天是希望說"},{"start":11392.618,"end":11411.032,"text":"這個部長這個你說三童三童這個東西要宣傳啊然後另外就藥局也一直老是講說因為社區藥局是我們分級醫療然後醫藥分業要專業化那我們也鼓勵嘉醫也鼓勵社區藥局"},{"start":11412.173,"end":11426.779,"text":"可是藥局面臨大很大的這個困難我們也是要想到比如說分配不均有藥的先分配大院他們就一定沒有嘛那再來他們都是跟盤商要的可是盤商因為這個很多種種因素他不供藥了或是最小出貨量你在藥廠裡面某些藥物是1000粒為一瓶的基本包裝他就沒用得多你怎麼所以這個都是可解決的啊"},{"start":11438.604,"end":11438.884,"text":"保定對不對"},{"start":11457.02,"end":11471.836,"text":"我們剛剛有提到的幾個我們都非常的贊同,比方說山桐這一個學名要需要去做promote,讓民眾比較能夠接花很多錢在宣導,但這種東西都沒看到你們的宣導"},{"start":11473.853,"end":11499.034,"text":"這我們會持續而且會加強去做因為這個會關係到國內的一些命脈那第二個部分的話那剛剛委員有提到那這個藥物調度的問題比如說社區藥局他要調度跟盤商那這個部分的話因為新的制度我們剛剛才建立起來對盤商的一個監測那幸好這個國內的大的盤商他們都願意來做配合"},{"start":11499.694,"end":11521.689,"text":"所以這個部分的話我們就可以來監測在社區藥局這邊如果是缺貨的時候我們到底是不是可以來請盤商來做調度那如果說中盤商沒有辦法調度的話那我們就找藥商中盤商不能調度的理由和原因很多啦所以你們也是要去了解合不合理嘛因為這個部分的話其實是他們最常講的一個理由是說現在進貨的藥價到未來賣的時候都賠本"},{"start":11525.231,"end":11542.024,"text":"我的意思是說這是其中一個理由我知道但是那個是在這種藥價調漲的這個時間當然中環社會的大理由就是因為我們的PIX GMP裡面還包含這個冷鏈的系統所以他們冷鏈不合格是不是也應該繼續輔導趕快輔導好這部分我會理解"},{"start":11546.087,"end":11559.181,"text":"那我還是要談蘇丹紅事件蘇丹紅事件很嚴重是因為你說你不能保證在架上的都是安全的沒有漏網之魚我現在看一下第8章這個產品而且這個海順公司的產品"},{"start":11566.26,"end":11594.108,"text":"然後你看他的下一頁香麻辣粉現在大家上Google到MOMO網站現在還在架上3月7號現在還在架上初一十五海順而你們知道嗎衛生局也知道海順署長他為什麼還在架上你們的所謂的檢出辣椒粉含蘇丹紅的專區裡面也沒有這種產品"},{"start":11596.173,"end":11619.621,"text":"這個部分我們會查它的批次到底現在的狀況是什麼海順公司是一個算是進口不要講批次的問題這個部長我就回到我們的第二頁第三頁的故事說給你聽一下批次我們什麼時候100%逐批查驗應該是去年的12月12月之後還有沒有人繼續進含有蘇丹紅產品的"},{"start":11624.022,"end":11634.611,"text":"這個辣椒粉,馬上給你看,這個馬上給你看,部長,這是你們自己說的,我這一份拿錯了,你看它,編進受理時間1月6號,今年的,我們本來是"},{"start":11645.742,"end":11650.144,"text":"我再問你,去年12月11號已經百分之100的在查驗了為什麼這些廠商仍然有恃無恐繼續進口大量含蘇丹紅的辣椒粉?我不在講查到被退,他當然沒有成...我上禮拜就跟你講啊查到沒關係,沒死也沒了結你就叫他退官,退回去中共而已沒有啦,那退就已經是了結了"},{"start":11674.694,"end":11676.738,"text":"後來我還沒再跟你說為什麼這間家館都所有這幾天都跟這個公司他百分之一百逐批查驗了他在1月6號"},{"start":11690.27,"end":11698.419,"text":"仍然在繼續進口,而且進口量有多高呢?據我所知,好像是1月6號的是13696公斤。好,來第二張。但不是1月6號,它被退了!如你們所說,被退了!"},{"start":11711.943,"end":11729.609,"text":"1月30查出不額個備退要求他退他1月30之後仍然還繼續進1月28OK沒關係他在你們百分之一百去年12月11就發布百分之一百逐批查驗的時候他仍然進我都中三張了"},{"start":11731.469,"end":11736.953,"text":"因為他的出口商不是Kevin Shipping,是這間啦你們沒有在調查,我都幫你們查好了,其實你們都知道"},{"start":11760.871,"end":11771.814,"text":"她的出口商從中國出來荷蘭的,是龍海銅製你別以為這是中國廠商,這是他們自己因為台灣李彥廷也有登記一家龍海銅製他們自己,剛才那些是中國人,你看中國登記的他1997年就成立了"},{"start":11783.848,"end":11808.84,"text":"他1997年就食品原料、食品加工然後為什麼他在溯源追蹤系統他會登記的是什麼Kevin Shipping因為他的裡面的真正的出口商是龍海同志你退關退回去也是他們自己的公司啦退回去他們中國也是他們自己的公司啦"},{"start":11810.734,"end":11820.142,"text":"所以你看這個葉澤,我們看他有幾家公司啊?沒錯,我剛才說的那個初一十五是哪一家公司?是海順我拜他就說他有四間啊,現在再多一個海順"},{"start":11828.126,"end":11845.936,"text":"事實上他不是啦 你看他多少金湛、釜山、廣源、龍海、節展、加廣、初一、十五、食品有限公司、素食業、淪陷、頂紀、海順、國際我剛才講了這個龍海同紀他台灣也有登記第一次看起來 整間 九間"},{"start":11855.831,"end":11871.242,"text":"已經出包了,你9家有沒有全部都查?食藥署署長,你有沒有全部都查?我想這部分的話,對於個別的這些廠商如果是有輸入到違規的,我們就進行進口沒有啦,保證我不是在說如果的問題啦"},{"start":11874.423,"end":11893.262,"text":"至少經戰加廣都已經爆發食安事件了至少我禮拜一都已經跟你們說過他們的人頭公司很多這個經營者他們至少有很多家的經營者有很多家的公司的時候"},{"start":11894.48,"end":11897.483,"text":"因為它是個別登記的公司所以我們還是必須要掌握那為什麼立委Google就有了"},{"start":11914.318,"end":11931.712,"text":"你整個食藥署專業的人力咧一千多人欸那你只是負責你政策責付出去地方政府也有人力欸那今天在這裡我覺得行政部門有道德風險啊你們食藥署的人有一種道德風險是什麼你知道嗎你們有辦法查好查滿嗎你查好查滿會不會像滾雪球一樣越滾越大"},{"start":11942.063,"end":11957.242,"text":"當你們為了避免越滾越大的時候是不是就不能太認真所以不做不做多做多錯我現在看到的就是這樣子啊我Google就可以知道他有9家公司你知道他還有1家"},{"start":11961.061,"end":11972.711,"text":"那個工廠登記嗎?來看一個工廠登記我...我...這個來鐵皮屋工廠來我會講公司登記喔工廠登記你們有去查過廠嗎?這個地方有去查過廠嗎?"},{"start":11975.543,"end":11994.432,"text":"因為所有要餐蘇丹紅都是辣椒要磨成粉以外是要加工餐入的加工過程才餐入的他現在有一種是邊境就餐入那還有加工廠這個我跟他簡單問你這間工廠登記證他名字他是哪一家工廠工廠登記證嗎名字叫什麼FDA知道嗎你不知道他有高經公司你也不知道"},{"start":12005.876,"end":12023.545,"text":"從委員的資料裡面看的話,一看就是用那個地址去查的吧,就同指的...沒有啊,我們的公司登記毛那個吳克民三年也可以的啊我沒有辦法用這樣去查啦你為...我不用去查耶,我只是Google就有了耶"},{"start":12025.182,"end":12043.508,"text":"Google台灣公司網就有阿你Google一個加廣金站Google一個加廣他就告訴你加廣還有其他的這個分公司有沒有你Google這個加廣兩個字就全部找到連他的工廠登記都有我這就是工廠登記來的"},{"start":12045.068,"end":12053.496,"text":"不過因為行政機關在做事情的時候,它還是一個一個的公式要去做處理我現在說行政機關入圍谷歌就有了,你們沒辦法做,那就是你們的道德風險嘛你如果怕差太多,滾雪球啦"},{"start":12060.463,"end":12076.82,"text":"這個會報的一定會報啦尤其是這種那我現在再告訴你不是會報的就會報都沒有報啊林淑芬今天沒有講這9家公司你會去查9家嗎沒有我今天講初一15素食食品公司3月7號現在MOMO網站上還有"},{"start":12077.921,"end":12095.846,"text":"現在大家Google進去都還有3月他還有特價3月1號到3月7號想最低價格八三折好我現在要再講喔我我覺得你們這個東西很離譜以外我們整個事件喔我覺得查到最後非常可惡的是因為"},{"start":12097.026,"end":12116.689,"text":"如果我們整個食品安全的管理是仰賴業者自律,然後當初我們建置一個食品溯源系統,追蹤追溯系統,我們都這麼講,我們政府不斷跟大家講,你要來登錄,然後你要自律,如果你被我查到了,我要重罰。"},{"start":12118.53,"end":12139.306,"text":"今天查到了你也說重罰但是我現在問你業者查到要重罰但是如果政府被人民查到政府被立委查到你們就沒有在管要不要重罰因為現在上游的廠商登錄的是虛偽下游的廠商把青菜蝦蝦蝦沒多轉"},{"start":12141.485,"end":12164.095,"text":"你這樣,你根本就都沒在查,所以讓那個溯源追蹤追溯制度,淪於假的形式,讓我們食安五環破功,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講"},{"start":12174.239,"end":12196.825,"text":"他在測試你政府的底線啊他在測試你政府可以容許會不會查嘛然後你的下游高雄市政府說他提供不出完整的下游名單他也沒有嘛我現在再問你在幾天拜議的時候食藥署署長說他們都有登錄他們是登錄第23類"},{"start":12198.525,"end":12212.654,"text":"署長我現在跟問你啦我們是7萬家的公司需要強制登錄的只有一萬家這一萬家裡面是在25個品項裡面他到底是基於哪一個品項所以必須要強登"},{"start":12215.932,"end":12228.379,"text":"因為25項大多數都是鎖定在3000萬以上的食品公司、食品工廠才必須啊我現在這樣問你,他是多一項,你告訴我他必須強登的規定是第幾個品項23萬"},{"start":12232.284,"end":12237.987,"text":"我現在要說的是你們的科長告訴我們登載不實他要登錄一個登了原因是他是第24類不是23類"},{"start":12260.979,"end":12279.235,"text":"到底23還是24 您課長說的跟您書長說的不一樣再來 再來說以這種業者自律嚴重的被查到我要重罰那政府現在發現政府就不在管啊這樣人民發現你嚴重的疏失不在管要不要重罰事務官、公務員要懲處啊"},{"start":12284.093,"end":12284.854,"text":"所以由此可知啊,瀆職的很嚴重"},{"start":12309.999,"end":12320.03,"text":"這個指控的話需要有一些證據的沒有證據嗎?他登錄了凱文需品作為上游公司這不是證據嗎?我現在在說的是你們沒有在查"},{"start":12324.935,"end":12330.279,"text":"你們有沒有一個定期檢視?112年逐批拖延到100%了,你可以不用查嗎?如果他過去的紀錄在邊境都查到,還有蘇丹紅而且屢次的被發現,你不用去食品雲查嗎?"},{"start":12350.069,"end":12366.46,"text":"你不用去食品雲茶嗎?如果他是累犯,如果是鋁鋁,如果他是這樣子,我現在講說這一群人喔這一群人是不是故意的、組織性的在做啊?你看,他根本就是...我只要跟你講,他在台灣也有工廠登記也有公司高競,然後在中國也有,你如果他輸出"},{"start":12377.667,"end":12404.028,"text":"中國輸出廠商寫龍海同濟,他如果去抓到禁止輸入,這樣他這間就破錢了,就沒好啊,但是他都把你用Kevin Shipping所以你還敢說我禁止了21家中國廠商,你禁止的是Kevin Shipping你禁止的不是吳彥廷、吳克敏他們的龍海同濟,叫Eastrong"},{"start":12406.704,"end":12431.677,"text":"而且你們還有一個我搞不懂的你們的新聞稿專區裡面這21家被中國中國被禁的廠商名稱21家在你們的新聞稿裡面沒有放上來沒有放21家的名稱而是隱藏在一個大家都看不到的地方苦心的一直問的去查才查得到這21家所以我很懷疑的"},{"start":12432.777,"end":12455.3,"text":"您為什麼都不公布在您的新聞稿專區新聞稿專區沒有放上去過這是不是有貓膩我們就不得而知了好謝謝林委員的質詢那請這個衛福部要積極的去查緝剛剛委員提供這麼多的資料積極去查接下來我們就處理臨時提案那現在臨時提案總共有6案請一併宣讀"},{"start":12456.859,"end":12473.673,"text":"臨時提案第一案衛生福利部為因應日益嚴重之藥品短缺問題於112年成立跨部門藥品供應通報處理中心為目前作法人偏向個案危機處理模式使藥署對於嚴重缺藥時的藥品分配或調度機制為制度化"},{"start":12474.573,"end":12500.591,"text":"針對健保藥價調整等重大政策可能影響藥品供應狀況亦缺乏風險管理及資訊透明原要求衛福部食藥署應就各項藥品缺藥風險及對疾病治療影響程度建立完整缺藥預防和藥品調度機制並以數據化和透明化方式防止缺藥引發民眾恐慌提案人委員王育敏、陳金輝、蘇清泉"},{"start":12504.974,"end":12521.606,"text":"第二案經查社區藥局目前佔整體藥品市場比例約一成市佔率偏低導致藥品供應與社區藥局難以簽訂藥品穩定供應契約一旦發生缺藥狀況或是健保藥價調整時社區藥局藥品缺"},{"start":12524.568,"end":12525.209,"text":"第三案有鑑於臺灣當前的"},{"start":12554.752,"end":12582.064,"text":"藥品費用分配比率目標制第一梯實施過程中第一大類藥品新藥專利期內藥品費用成長幅度較高但藥價削減的重點卻落在第三大類藥品上這種不平衡的做法不僅對學民藥市場造成不利影響也可能阻礙整體藥品市場的健康發展藥品第一梯辦法已經實施10年這個制度要重新檢討或者是廢止另提辦法"},{"start":12582.904,"end":12595.357,"text":"原要求衛福部於一個月內研擬改善方案．並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出解決辦法提案人委員蘇清泉聯署人委員廖偉祥、王育敏第4案"},{"start":12596.516,"end":12615.688,"text":"要徹底解決缺藥困境需同時以滿足醫師最佳處方選擇及照顧病患用藥權益的為基礎另外避免全球性藥品供應不穩定或兩岸關係影響導致救命藥品無法順利進口強化臨床需求必要性藥品在地生產能力"},{"start":12616.228,"end":12633.341,"text":"確保所有疾病患者有藥可用．以維護民眾生命權．原要求衛福部在同時符合以下三項要件．各該品項之藥價不受藥價調整影響．或排除在每年藥價調整之外．一、臨床上有需求醫學會認證．二、鼓勵在地製造"},{"start":12636.483,"end":12655.089,"text":"領有食藥署合發臺灣製造藥品許可證、三、三章以下的稀缺藥證提案人委員廖偉祥、聯署人委員陳金輝、王育敏、邱振軍、蘇清泉、盧憲一。第五案長期以來健保費率調漲相當困難在先節流後開源的要求下"},{"start":12656.977,"end":12681.878,"text":"忽視醫療人員的服務價值另外在總額制度控管之下醫治機構應得的給付長期被打9折甚至8折長期管控與節流也讓醫療能力與資源只能勉強維持堪用的狀態建請政府撥補裁員以合理之意補充我國醫療品質一、西醫、牙醫及中醫基層浮動點值保障一點0.95元"},{"start":12684.601,"end":12700.934,"text":"2.醫院浮動點值保障1.0.9元提案人委員黃秀芳、林俊憲連署人委員林月琴、王振旭第6案113年食品藥物管理署查獲大量進口中國製辣椒粉含致癌物蘇丹色素3號"},{"start":12701.795,"end":12729.022,"text":"目前中國製辣椒粉已進入市場並大規模利用於加工食品危害國人食安甚具食藥署也無法保證市場完全沒有問題經查我國國中小學約165萬名學生食用營養午餐若含蘇丹紅辣椒粉用於營養午餐恐危害多數孩童健康原要求衛福部於市場內蘇丹紅辣椒粉清查完畢前應限制全國學校營養午餐食材添加辣椒粉"},{"start":12730.114,"end":12737.199,"text":"提案人委員王育敏、蘇清泉、屠權吉宣讀完畢好 謝謝來請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見主席有關第一案的部分有文字的修正那修正的是在第二行還有第三行有這個部分我們是建議要刪掉然後更換文字由中盤藥商這裡到第三行的"},{"start":12758.769,"end":12760.57,"text":"並以建立藥品短缺通報及評估處理程序"},{"start":12770.97,"end":12800.559,"text":"那到第二段的部分有幾個很簡單的一些字要希望可以劃掉的就是在我們第一句話之後竇點那裡可以劃掉對疾病治療影響程度這句話希望可以劃掉然後在後面的部分並以數據化的這個這個我們要劃掉是並以透明化方式防止缺藥引發民眾恐慌"},{"start":12801.823,"end":12824.46,"text":"好 那就按照修正後通過來 謝謝好 那第二案也是有文字的修正那在第二段第二段這裡第二段倒數第二行就是我們是倒數第三行那裡寫研擬社區藥局然後開始是與物流業合作方式這裡我們劃掉還有下一句話"},{"start":12824.94,"end":12825.22,"text":"好,好,謝謝"},{"start":12844.54,"end":12861.888,"text":"主席跟各位報告有關第三案檢討第一梯的提案我們會積極來進行不過因為還需要有一些法規預告等等是不是可以從一個月延長成三個月內研擬改善的方案提出解決辦法"},{"start":12864.4,"end":12884.231,"text":"那另外那個剛剛有委員提到說你們開相關會議的時候希望委員可以參與這個部分可以嗎?可以可以沒問題那就拜託你們開相關檢討會議的時候同時通知立法院關心的委員通知委員辦公室關心的委員他就可以去列席好謝謝好來第四案"},{"start":12893.074,"end":12908.249,"text":"有關第4案提到對於一些稀缺藥證的藥品在調藥價的時候能夠予以排除這個精神上我們都支持不過就是說我們略做一些文字的調整"},{"start":12910.813,"end":12934.504,"text":"這個原要求衛福部於本次修法時必須參裁同時符合以下三項要件各該品項之藥價不受藥價調整影響或排除在每年藥價調整之外一、臨床上有需求醫醫學會認證或我們後面加一個另外一個同時可以考量的"},{"start":12934.744,"end":12947.575,"text":"或依要釋法第27之2條必要藥品清單那以下都是照列好請問廖委員可以嗎好來那就按修正通過來第五案"},{"start":12951.02,"end":12974.777,"text":"第5案是林俊憲黃秀芳委員提案有關於要政府撥補裁員那因為這個還有很多的層級要討論所以建議加兩個字就建請政府研議撥補裁員黃秀芳委員可以嗎?可以齁,好來修正通過第6案"},{"start":12977.257,"end":12990.037,"text":"報告委員第6案有修正文字那在第一行的部分最後那邊寫含致癌物這裡我們建請可以修改為含具有潛在致癌性"},{"start":12992.854,"end":13013.331,"text":"第二段的第二行是原要求衛福部我們希望可以增加原要求衛福部協調教育部於市場內蘇丹紅辣椒粉為這個地方改成為為清茶上位那個為為清茶完畢前"},{"start":13015.008,"end":13022.711,"text":"應通知團散業者暫停使用加辣椒粉應通知營養午餐業者暫停使用加辣椒粉"},{"start":13045.154,"end":13048.376,"text":"因通知全國營養午餐業者。"},{"start":13069.258,"end":13070.599,"text":"黃健豪委員"},{"start":13104.229,"end":13107.945,"text":"好,謝謝主席,那我們是請薛部長好,有請部長"},{"start":13114.81,"end":13140.949,"text":"委員好部長好部長今天我想當然大家主要討論到這個健保藥價的部分那其實我想這個健保涉及到我們這個醫療機構相關這個營收一般來講就所知一般的醫療機構不管大的小的它的這個收入來源一方面是這個健保的這個給付另外一個很重要當然就是所謂的門診的這個掛號費的收入所以說其實我剛剛看到這個報告的第一頁就提到說"},{"start":13142.25,"end":13168.461,"text":"主要是希望說能夠來這個反映藥品支付的價格調降來控制藥費在合理範圍裡面來尊潔健保的支出那包含剛剛的委員的臨時提案裡面也提到這個健保的支出當然健保可能現在入不敷出所以是不是有可能考慮用這個公務預算來撥補因為像其他的這個其他像比如說勞保或其他的這些保險的這個公務的保險如果他在保險的經費不夠的時候都會使用這個公務預算來撥補來擬貧這個可能虧損的部分"},{"start":13171.143,"end":13172.046,"text":"那在健保這部分"},{"start":13173.442,"end":13199.799,"text":"當然健保要不要勃勃這部分我們未來再討論那我今天想要講的是這個提到這個那個什麼掛號費提升的問題解開解封的問題其實我想跟這個部長來討論就是說部長說這個是市場機制但是我想這個醫療行為很難用這個市場機制來認定如果今天醫療行為要用市場機制來認定的話那我想醫院他的管理單位就不是衛福部可以把它移去經濟部了所以我想這個部長"},{"start":13201.44,"end":13226.89,"text":"我還是希望說這個在調整因為你今天受訪的時候也是很肯定的說這件事情一定會執行但在執行之前我想問部長有沒有可能至少你要召開一個公聽會來瞭解除了醫界的意見之外我想使用者、各民間團體、民眾的意見也很重要就是我願意能夠花多少錢來看一般的診所那願意花多少錢去掛特別的門診的這個健保這個購入費我想這是不一樣的這個結構"},{"start":13228.93,"end":13247.237,"text":"一刀切的說啊,全面性的都可以去調整,都可以去調漲,我想對這個名稱衝擊會非常大,尤其現在這幾年啊,這幾個月來我想很多的這個費用都在調漲,不管是物價也好,電費也好,如果連現在這個掛號費也要調漲的話,我想對一般的民眾的衝擊會非常大。部長對這件事有什麼看法?有沒有"},{"start":13248.237,"end":13270.212,"text":"延後實施的可能性有沒有可能再徵詢更多的意見再去執行這件事情首先跟我們報告其實對於掛號費這種行政費用的管制法律上是沒有根據的我知道那所以這一個解既然說醫界有這樣子的提出來這樣的質疑的時候我們就必須要去做處理"},{"start":13270.712,"end":13296.826,"text":"我想醫界在質疑當然主要還是因為說這個收入的問題啦所以要提到說這健保的幾負點是不是也是很重要的一個環節那健保的部分是另外一件事情那健保事實上對於所謂的這一些營運成本包括說租金、水電等等這些還有人員薪資的上漲的壓力的話健保沒有辦法完全去cover但是那個是行政成本"},{"start":13297.746,"end":13312.18,"text":"所以我們其實是解開那個管制並不是說他一定就會調整比如說我們現在對於我們可以掌握的公立醫院的話我們可能就是讓他先不掌公立醫院先不掌對"},{"start":13312.901,"end":13338.004,"text":"好部長謝謝喔晚上就是說其實這東西的確就是說這個是民眾多數民眾一看到說這個過號費可能會調會調漲的時候其實大家這個心理壓力其實也蠻大的那當然整個醫療收入的支出醫療收入的部分到底是這個這個過號費比較重要還是這個健保的費用比較重要因為今天時間不太夠所以我有有有機會再跟部長討論那最後一點喔另外一個話題就是這個大家很在注重這個蘇丹紅的議題"},{"start":13339.585,"end":13342.167,"text":"蘇丹紅的原料他好像是工業產品所以這是不是不在目前的食安五環的管制範圍裡面應該說他作為食品添加物是一個不合法的這樣我們還是要管"},{"start":13364.301,"end":13386.587,"text":"因為他理論上進來他申報不會說我要加到食品裡面去嘛他進來申報的時候他一定是用什麼其他的名義可能工業製品所以他申報要進入台灣然後在台灣來加工目前的狀況不是這樣目前的狀況是他在國外的話就是已經已經是加到這個辣椒粉裡面所以我們看到的是辣椒粉我們做出來看到成品就對了蘇丹侯"},{"start":13388.027,"end":13415.356,"text":"那並不是說蘇丹紅另外進來然後在國內去攬那並不是這個樣子那如果是成品進來的話理論上應該在這個邊境管制的時候就應該查到才對所以我們現在會提升那個管制的一個措施也就是說像這一類的我們會跟那個環境部一起來討論由哪一些工業產品工業的使用的這些原料"},{"start":13415.976,"end":13439.955,"text":"它不可以加在食品裡面,我們會把它找出來一旦驗到的話,那就是100%去擋了部長還有這個食藥署,我想提供一個民間的建議因為我們家以前自己做食品業的很清楚其實這個食品哪些不肖業者會把不該加在食品裡面的東西放進食品的添加物裡面這些我想食藥署去業界了解一下就很清楚那我想這個部分"},{"start":13440.896,"end":13462.282,"text":"不能用善良民眾的心的想法去想這個事情要去從不肖廠商的想法節省成本的想法去想這個事情哪些工業製品會被添加到食物裡面包含在這個境外管制的包含在這個港口管制的時候就應該要去處理不是進來之後食安風暴才去查緝所以部分我是希望說部長跟我們署長"},{"start":13462.802,"end":13481.869,"text":"要辛苦一點去瞭解一下業界實際上面它會被拿來添加的工業物質有哪些那也把它列出清單這個可能不是你們衛福部第一線的管這不是你們直接的業務但是可能是經濟部或財政部的業務那這部分你們也要提供清單在進出口的時候就應該有一個有效的管制好 謝謝"},{"start":13504.775,"end":13508.317,"text":"接下來我們請謝一鳳委員進行質詢"},{"start":13523.099,"end":13541.648,"text":"謝謝主席。我想要請我們薛部長。好,來,有請薛部長。委員好。部長好。我想請問一下,去年我們補健保多少錢?去年中央政府預算補健保多少錢?去年的話是240億。是不是?240億。240億。今年是200億。"},{"start":13548.011,"end":13565.291,"text":"對阿,我們每年都在補健保的錢,然後你們又給人家調漲那個掛號,不是取消不是調漲,你們比較符合原意叫做取消掛號費的上限嘛那如果,好了醫療機構就是這樣子"},{"start":13568.054,"end":13568.974,"text":"對於整個健保的結構有沒有改善?"},{"start":13589.595,"end":13612.686,"text":"當然有一些在行政成本提升的部分的話那醫療機構可能會有這種調漲花費來支應的這樣的情形但是健保是歸健保因為健保指的是醫療費用醫療費用的這一個部分的話那在總額預算制度之下仍然還是必須要另外去做處理"},{"start":13614.086,"end":13632.224,"text":"委員剛剛提到的這個公務預算補助的部分其實我們是用於在這個癌症新藥的這個部分還有就是護理人員他的待遇提升了這個部分那也是健保支出的是不是?你說去年的今年的200億跟去年的240億"},{"start":13633.825,"end":13652.752,"text":"去年的240億同時也去處理到所謂的補點子的問題因為這個COVID-19的停止之後的話那整個的整個的這一個三呼吸道感染的這種case大增那這部分的話讓這整個的點子是下降的所以去年的240億也同時在處理這個問題"},{"start":13655.533,"end":13679.026,"text":"因為我實在很納悶就是說當我們的中央政府總預算一直在就是說預注健保但是健保第一個醫院也沒拿到錢然後我們又要多花錢也沒有拿到足額的錢嘛我們又要多花錢然後這是三輸耶就是社會大眾也沒有覺得整體的"},{"start":13680.487,"end":13691.007,"text":"就是我們整體的醫療的那個就是改善了那是不是有點刪除啊?那已經有多年都不用再去調保費了這個是其實是這樣"},{"start":13693.805,"end":13716.837,"text":"我有點怕說你說你不要續任我現在質詢你了你講的也不代表未來的就是說未來的部長說不定你會不會騙我們你會不會騙我們你說你不續任最後部長還是你那個不是我決定的對啊所以你也沒有辦法說啊你現在你也沒有鎖匙嘛所以我的意思就是不用再質詢我"},{"start":13718.024,"end":13738.792,"text":"我怎麼...不是啦還是要討論出一個解決的方案啦因為我認為說第一個中央政府的總預算一直在挹注健保然後你們取消這個上限的問題讓民眾覺得說好即便是你們改善了就是醫療診所的行政費用但是沒有改善整個健保的結構嘛"},{"start":13740.012,"end":13755.242,"text":"但是對醫療院所來講,他可以改善他的醫療品質,包括說可以聘用更多的這些護理人員來處理病人,所以這個是非常馬上就要去面對的問題"},{"start":13756.796,"end":13770.383,"text":"對可是民眾就會覺得他們就醫的那個然後你們同樣的在其他的政策方面好我們說當然我們取消陸配那你們也知道說明明就是一年的上限就是60個還70"},{"start":13772.544,"end":13795.895,"text":"這個因為沒有寫到法律上面去啦所以以後會不會又要做調整這個我們實在是沒有辦法所以現在我們沒有辦法去講說這個陸配的這個年限是減短了之後的話依親的人是否會有影響陸配本身不會有影響但是他依親的這個部分是否有影響這個我們不知道"},{"start":13801.579,"end":13817.127,"text":"每年60個,這是寫在一個表上面,算是一個行政命令的一環而已你是擔心取消了,說有影響,是不是?你是擔心說上限取消了會影響?沒有的話,600個、6000個、6萬個,我們健保就受不了了"},{"start":13824.6,"end":13844.278,"text":"可是我是說其實我們健保的問題你也清楚啦還不是不用算到這一塊不用算到那一塊其實我們目前的結構性的問題就存在了啦然後我們一直挹注健保資源其實都沒有辦法改善整個健保的結構啦"},{"start":13845.179,"end":13845.419,"text":"我們還是會監測啦"},{"start":13868.27,"end":13895.036,"text":"你怎麼監測主席站起來了我只是覺得說好像還是沒有改善主要是說有一些地區的話他的資源是比較不足的這部分的話那個關會我們就要注意因為他已經事實上的一個獨佔或者是一個寡佔的情形這個就要特別要去注意了好謝謝好我們謝謝謝一鋒委員的質詢接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員進行質詢"},{"start":13906.189,"end":13934.386,"text":"主席、在場委員、先進、列席的政府機關長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生有請薛部長跟吳署長好,請部長跟署長委員好部長好、署長好今天這個題目在這之前可能怕很多人都關心也問過了但是我還是要請教一下報載說年底恐怕會缺藥,六百萬人無藥可用那個標題包括說什麼年底會有缺藥潮啦六百萬人沒有藥啦,年底會缺藥嗎?"},{"start":13936.286,"end":13955.57,"text":"這事實上是你怎麼定義缺藥的問題你聽聽部長的定義如果是缺藥講的是比較正確的一個定義的話是國內都沒有辦法提供而不是說某一家醫院診所或者是當然我們關心的是國內這個藥拿不到嘛那國內拿不到這個藥就嚴重囉是不是這樣"},{"start":13960.831,"end":13988.808,"text":"好 那我們來看一下這次因為都說缺藥的原因是因為我們把藥品的採購的調降幅度嘛比如說第一名的他從這個2500降到1600降幅35%第二名的乳癌從36降到26降了28%第三名是胃潰瘍從36降到26也是降了27%那好 那我們再往下看降幅最大的包括心血管、神經系統、抗感染的請問需要用到這些項目的病患他會不會受到影響呢"},{"start":13990.461,"end":14000.231,"text":"這基本上不會因為他都有都有這個替代的藥品替代藥品是的好但是有人提到說因為藥局怕被砍藥價就不禁藥"},{"start":14001.226,"end":14023.878,"text":"那就是包括藥局在備藥啊等醫生開處方啊那3月30日前備的藥好事業藥調降了那因為他怕被砍掉他就不再進了會不會有這樣的事情發生比如說空中拿不到藥他就不進了會不會有這樣的情況他是基本上利潤會稍微減少在這一段時間因為他原來進藥的時候的成本可能是比較高因為預期的藥價是比較高是的"},{"start":14024.858,"end":14049.364,"text":"現在藥價調降下來所以會壓縮到他的利潤空間但是只有在一段時間因為他就可以再跟那個藥廠再去就是說這是過渡時間啊就是未來他再進藥的成本也就也降低了賣的藥價也低了好那開始呢我們我想最近很多的相關醫事團體藥廠他們就在聚集在討論這個事情那有人提出說如果在台灣製造藥品並給國產的"},{"start":14051.783,"end":14052.843,"text":"我們希望說有一些專利過期的話那可以讓這個國產能夠來製造"},{"start":14069.411,"end":14094.662,"text":"如果是原料藥的這個部分的話使用的是國產的原料我們會再讓它核價更高一點所以你們已經往這個方向有在研議了好很好那另外呢比如說我們舉例啦齁所謂的這個軟便劑只剩下藥廠願意生產它是很簡單的一個氧化酶嘛一顆才兩塊錢人家說是糖果價、地板價再砍一次到醫院再砍一次廠商說現在一顆剩八毛那目前呢這個藥證有五張"},{"start":14096.403,"end":14097.944,"text":"所以本來他就按照規則的話就會一直砍一直砍下來"},{"start":14125.297,"end":14149.852,"text":"但是後來因為有這個缺藥而且這個藥的確還是好用所以我們現在已經調升它的價格而且給它保護了那所以這個就是說類似像剛剛說的藥證藥證如果有限這些藥廠願意生產的藥或有這個藥廠就要很小心的把它保住嘛很怕它一時打個噴嚏它就不生產了那病患就麻煩了你們有在注意啦"},{"start":14150.592,"end":14170.335,"text":"所以有人提出說稀缺藥證像剛剛那種只有5張或只有2張3張的供應有限而且臨場需求的藥物不列入每年調價範圍你說如果有人提出這個主張有沒有有助於避免斷藥應該是有有助於所以你們會評估對我們現在就往這一方面來做處理所以最後我就兩個訴求"},{"start":14172.457,"end":14194.733,"text":"針對剛剛那兩個訴求在臺製造藥品並使用國產原料藥品給予適當的價格保護請你們分析它對藥品供應的影響三個月內提出一個書面報告可以嗎?那同樣的對於稀缺的藥證或供應有限且有臨場需求的藥物不再列入每年調教的範圍請你們也分析一下這對藥品供應的影響好不好?一樣在三個月內提供給本席跟委員會好謝謝部長謝謝署長找錯了應該是找了"},{"start":14199.847,"end":14206.388,"text":"好,謝謝中嘉賓委員的質詢接下來我們請林益君委員進行質詢主席好,有請薛部長及石署長,謝謝好,請部長跟石署長"},{"start":14230.765,"end":14258.812,"text":"委員好有請薛部長你知道針對藥價的問題是本席長期關心的議題本席必須要用自己的專業向部長指出幾個問題的嚴重性因為藥價的調整不但涉及民眾的用藥權益甚至造成缺藥的情況會發生那更是危及國人的生命、身體及健康甚至可能會是國安的問題"},{"start":14259.952,"end":14278.285,"text":"而且藥局根本沒有囤藥的問題只有缺藥的問題最近有許多醫事人員反應不合理的狀況就是想請教部長一個問題如果有一個慢性患者他在3月1號就醫後拿到醫生開出的慢性處方簽三個月他原來已經領了一個月了"},{"start":14280.547,"end":14302.166,"text":"但是健保署卻公告說藥價準備在4月1號要將健保價調降所以請問當這個患者4月2號要第二次領藥的時候是不是應該要以就一期日計算呢還是請問健保署對於這個藥價的計算覺得要用哪一天來計算才合理呢"},{"start":14304.573,"end":14311.401,"text":"這基本上他已經有這一個處方了他就讓他處方去拿藥拿了藥之後再申報"},{"start":14313.584,"end":14327.774,"text":"是部長你知道嗎?如果依照4月1號計算藥價在目前這樣的制度執行對於給藥的醫療機構實在是非常的不公平因為這個基層醫療的機構紛紛在反映說並不是說政府已經有預告何時調整藥價醫療機構就馬上要隨時的配合多出的成本反映的"},{"start":14338.041,"end":14348.33,"text":"今天如果一個弱勢的醫療機構他平常在進藥品的時候他的藥通常都贏不了大型醫院所以北行是不是可以趁部長今天來備詢這個機會我們把基層醫療的問題來釐清"},{"start":14353.334,"end":14367.07,"text":"所以本席在此想針對藥價調整的問題為民眾及基於藥食法則那就是過去就有一個就有一些案例是已經確定的就是說有一個有關慢性病連續處方簽對於健保藥價調整金額後"},{"start":14371.275,"end":14394.745,"text":"而因為換藥情況導致缺藥的可能而先前就是因為健保代碼支付價格歸零或藥品取消健保給付的問題健保署就有實施以原處方就是就醫期日或者治療的結束日支付該藥品的健保費"},{"start":14396.079,"end":14412.481,"text":"這個大概不太可行不是這個是已經是確定執行的只是我想要把剛才這樣的例子看看有沒有辦法套用例子來講第一個就是藥已經開出去了就是那一個藥所以處方箱裡面就是那一個藥"},{"start":14413.742,"end":14431.627,"text":"這一個藥的話去做調劑不管是怎麼樣回原業運手去做調劑還是收到社區藥局去做調劑那調劑完之後跟健保申報費用的時候那本來就是按年薪的啊至少在年度例行這個問題就是出在於藥品支付價格之後民眾領導"},{"start":14433.007,"end":14449.595,"text":"會有接受到領藥的衝擊還有在幫助緩解基層診所和社區藥局備藥的壓力所以既然慢性處方簽是3月開出的新藥價生效日是不是就應該以醫生處方日認定呢這個的話我想說想健保署可以"},{"start":14450.095,"end":14453.44,"text":"演繹一下看看有沒有辦法因為在慢性處方針開立後藥價調整其實導致非常多的病人難以取得藥物這是因為行政程序所以卻導致了病人權益的完全受損"},{"start":14465.758,"end":14479.344,"text":"所以這個的話我想說沒關係可以請部長一個星期內給本席正面的滿意回覆可以嗎這個跟病的權益沒有影響這個是跟藥局跟健保署沒關係這個的話再書面報告一下"},{"start":14484.726,"end":14495.792,"text":"主席可以再一分鐘OK好部長你同意支持三同藥物嗎來協助國人度過這個缺藥的危機嗎這我們當然就是政策目標就這樣做"},{"start":14496.331,"end":14523.365,"text":"那你們過去一年來宣傳學名藥的預算還執行率有多少呢?這一個部分的話到我手上是沒有這個資料啦那預算的部分好 因為我有請我們的助理跟你們食藥署索取資料但是索取了兩次之後到現在依舊沒有回覆然後這是不是藐視國會議員啊?沒有 對不對衛福部針對是否有三通藥物做宣導是不是宣傳的力道太弱了呢?然後"},{"start":14524.065,"end":14538.661,"text":"以致缺藥大家又沒有辦法接受學民藥這樣的話我們是不是應該要來編列預算然後積極作為呢以免缺藥造成民眾之間的恐慌這是不是衛福部的責任呢"},{"start":14539.762,"end":14557.695,"text":"所以我們今年在這一個部分的宣導的費用我們會增加但是我們經常這個宣導費用到了那個立法院：好沒關係部長是否可以在此承諾重新檢討一個跨部會的我們學民藥的政策把它分成短中長的目標短程就是宣導中程就是穩定生產的供應長程就是扶植我國MIT的製造的指示藥學民藥產業那可以嗎"},{"start":14567.142,"end":14570.965,"text":"好,謝謝部長。好,我們謝謝林益君委員的質詢。接下來我們請劉建國委員進行質詢。好,謝謝周委。有請部長。好,有請薛部長。"},{"start":14588.462,"end":14602.913,"text":"市長也一起來,食藥署署長好來,食藥署署長部長好部長我剛剛看到王釗瑋最後一個提案,我本人也是競表同意但是從這個案我要去延伸很多問題"},{"start":14604.178,"end":14607.18,"text":"這個案過了,它會延伸什麼問題?你有思考過嗎?"},{"start":14634.287,"end":14654.237,"text":"就像前幾天在講,那個所謂的零食嘛,然後火鍋店的壓血。現在這種天氣,台灣的餐飲業者火鍋店所佔的比例多高。那火鍋店的使用者,小朋友會不會去?也一定會去嘛。"},{"start":14655.307,"end":14675.252,"text":"要不要處理?小朋友的事情我們要特別重視但臺灣任何一個消費者的事情我們更加重視衛生部的官員我剛剛看到是吃了很大塊的雞排雞腿飯那雞腿有沒有外加辣椒粉?要不要進?"},{"start":14677.529,"end":14705.161,"text":"所以跟我們報告這一個辣椒粉的問題之所以不好解決就原因就在這對所以第一天禮拜四我就特別講說其實食安風暴像這種添加物它不是單一的成品它不像以前的毒奶粉對不對它是一個添加物你們要非常慎重嚴謹的積極的甚至也就是說阻絕中國"},{"start":14707.297,"end":14716.664,"text":"進到臺灣的這些東西,就是要馬上當機立斷,不能有錢就不能再有錢委員,這個問題就是這樣,我們現在目前的辣椒粉,都是大部分的仰賴進口那中國大陸那邊有80%,佔80%阿現在這些違規的是50%"},{"start":14728.573,"end":14737.116,"text":"所以你一下子通通禁的話我們會沒有辣的可以吃啦對國人的飲食習慣來講還是會有一個影響不是這樣啦部長80%是全部仰賴中國進口出的問題是50%"},{"start":14746.809,"end":14766.866,"text":"這個在80%裡面的50%出的問題就已經佔了一半了嘛?對,但是出那個你也是要讓人家來啦,不可以看到中間就一直進入進口,這個就不太好的一個管制措施。所以你們要更加嚴謹的看怎麼去做相關的意義,什麼地方該進你就該進嘛對不對?"},{"start":14768.587,"end":14793.338,"text":"包含因為前幾天有些縣市是針對營養午餐就已經禁了嘛那有些縣市是還沒有嘛那裡是禁表尊重嘛不對啊不對啊就不對嘛那今天王昭偉提出的這個案就是全國通用了嘛我要表達的就是說可能有些事情你要事先的就去展現該怎麼做就怎麼做了啦這個時間會很長嗎就看"},{"start":14795.697,"end":14815.437,"text":"可能食品主要辛苦一點,積極的看怎麼去做相關的查緝、比對、檢驗對一些可能會發生的還是比喻比較高的地方,可能你們依序的就必須直接的去對外做公告、對外做表示這可能比較危險、這比較高風險,我們先處理掉,先吃飯不可以"},{"start":14819.94,"end":14836.905,"text":"現在往下追查就是這個原則,委員說的如果他的下游廠商產品量是大的,那我們就要先處理部長跟署長都沒有經歷過過去的神風暴這不會是有這項東西發生,這嚴重,後來會再對一項來會再對一項來,一直來,會被刷到你不要把這個"},{"start":14847.852,"end":14853.735,"text":"我聽你們感到非常憂心甚至也很擔心真的啦因為我剛來的時候看到林委員在質詢其實他那些追查的方向"},{"start":14871.227,"end":14891.739,"text":"是沒有問題的喔?那一個部分的話其實是有一個困難點是說我們如果要個別的公司去做查、積查而且這個要把它是不是有相關的這些子公司或分公司要一起查出來我們就變成經濟部的商業司啊"},{"start":14897.602,"end":14909.128,"text":"但是遇到重大食安的事情基本上就是跨部會的一個合作嘛這基本上是這樣嘛因為我不希望它持續的流竄持續的被使用嘛"},{"start":14909.448,"end":14910.148,"text":"今天主題還是缺藥問題"},{"start":14935.205,"end":14962.326,"text":"那剛剛議員委員特別問部長嘛在議會的時候那部長有用這個說法嘛我是覺得部長在講一些話是蠻重點的蠻經典的啊這個會讓人家特別記憶清楚未嘗不是一件好事啦因為若堅持用原廠藥只能等死嘛就部長的講法嘛對不對但是但是他在前面如果再配一句話就會表達今天召委排的這個議題嘛"},{"start":14963.632,"end":14969.394,"text":"政府怎麼會讓人民搞到沒有這個藥可以來用,然後我們要去跟病患講說,你就要跟病患講,所以你只有丹氏。"},{"start":14989.036,"end":14996.725,"text":"這句話不是,但這句話要有底氣的,不是,對我知道啦,我現在齁,這句話你講到是一個重點嘛,也能讓人記得很清楚,就是部長你要討論很多問題嘛,有八款藥物可以用你不用,你要單這個藥物,當然你只有單四嘛,你藝術是要表達這樣嘛對不對,另外一個角度也是希望"},{"start":15010.72,"end":15038.635,"text":"國人可以對自己的國內的這些學民藥有一定程度的信心嘛對不對應該是這樣講嘛但是我看我讓部長看一個數據我說講這句話很重點大家記得起來但是這個講話也有底氣嘛2018台灣學民血壓藥被驗出致癌物300萬顆下架回收19就累積四起學民藥在安定性試驗後組成分不符標準而回收事件這個都不是在部長的論內啦但是在署長的論內喔"},{"start":15041.464,"end":15067.474,"text":"2023未達化學資料在三個月內出發三次八款藥回收同年發現台灣這個學名藥前列腺癌的這個膠囊已是組成混融解不全導致囊內的出現白色顆粒7月5號宣布回收這是在部長任內這是我簡單調出幾個啦這中間還有沒有書長應該比我更清楚嘛好"},{"start":15068.544,"end":15069.752,"text":"那你要怎麼建立國人對這個信心?"},{"start":15072.607,"end":15099.925,"text":"這個部分有一些是廠商主動他自己的來通報然後這個下架的所以我們其實是當然如果要建立國產藥的信心的話那食藥署這邊還是必須要加強那對於後市場的一個稽查包括說那是不是都能夠這一些藥都一直符合能夠符合我們的安全標準跟它的這個劑量的一個標準這個我們"},{"start":15101.926,"end":15121.798,"text":"後市場一定要繼續來做追蹤但是其實以現在的機制來看的話那廠商他的主動性也是有的啦所以這可以建立信心嗎因為他只能夠上市的時候已經都符合PIX GMP的標準了"},{"start":15122.378,"end":15146.707,"text":"那就是後市場以後繼續再製造到底是不是仍然符合當初做這個查案登記的這個標準這個我們必須要去後市場我把這個過程這件事情提出來我並不是講說全部都是這個樣子但是也因為有這些事情當然有的是廠商主動提出來就像蘇丹農現在有廠商自己去檢驗發現有問題"},{"start":15149.188,"end":15149.208,"text":"致詢問題"},{"start":15168.463,"end":15188.763,"text":"這樣跟原廠藥都是一致的對好我們怎麼你們也有做宣導啊你們有很多的相關的預算都有在推廣嘛對不對對但顯然好像力道不是很足對所以我們今年呢在這方面的話必須要增加這個預算但是不是現在發生這個事情我們現在才在做嗎之前為什麼會做到這個效益這麼不好這個有需檢討吧"},{"start":15192.066,"end":15218.515,"text":"對啦,食藥署這邊在明年度的預算一定這部分會增加,但是我想委員也知道嘛我們的宣導費用經常在立法院的話就會被殺掉一部分啦所以在這部分還要請委員來協助,那能夠來支持我過去還在這邊的時候幾乎沒有去刪你們什麼宣導費用是哪一個你可以試一下跟我講省綠算的時候我們好好地跟他溝通一下"},{"start":15220.508,"end":15235.174,"text":"對不對?但是山可能也一次兩次也不會全部爬也全部拿掉嗎?每年都會通山一個爬樹啦還好吧你這麼講這個會期沒有在審預算你在審預算的時候你講這樣很危險"},{"start":15240.777,"end":15263.638,"text":"因為委員剛好在問,所以我講一下,就是希望說委員能夠支持我當然是支持,但是有時候也不是只有靠宣導就可以解決這個事情,對不對?國人對這個學品藥的信心,除了你怎麼鼓勵這些學品藥的廠家,然後制定更完整的配套還有相關的一些政策,我想不只是宣導,是講到這個地方,對不對?"},{"start":15265.585,"end":15283.412,"text":"我時間到了啦,我最後還是要提供幾個訊息啦齁,因為當然過去來講是有,這也是從部長所講的嘛,航運受阻嘛,所謂的鴻海危機嘛齁,過去還有巴拉園運河的事件等等等,但是這個缺藥不單止這個原因啦,"},{"start":15285.701,"end":15309.33,"text":"最近的情形是這個原因是主要的因素這不是只有臺灣那是國際性的這種特別的一個缺藥草社區藥局要所謂的這個成立藥品合作社還有與物流藥水合作這個有什麼問題嗎?為什麼要把它拿掉?"},{"start":15310.031,"end":15315.035,"text":"不是這兩項完全你們都沒有辦法處理?不會這樣吧?你說物流業者還是可以溝通啊?還是可以"},{"start":15338.485,"end":15346.109,"text":"對啦,但是這個溝通的時候,我們就必須要找人來,因為我們不是主管機關,人家不一定會聽我們的啦。沒有啦,欠有聘是什麼問題?這絕對都是看不回可以處理的事情嗎?"},{"start":15357.155,"end":15380.862,"text":"這應該不是,我感覺不對,你說的話我會,你給我的感覺就不是這樣做的人啦,你這樣說不出,我覺得這有問題餒。不是這樣啦。這要讓我們的,像食藥署這個單位的話,能夠讓他可以,因為這個決議的執行都是有時間性的嘛。因為你們對外講說只有酒,像這個藥品嘛對不對,其實不只嘛。"},{"start":15386.083,"end":15387.745,"text":"其實是不止嗎?你沒說9項嗎?社區藥局連這9項都沒有啊?"},{"start":15393.7,"end":15420.475,"text":"市區藥局的缺藥不是真正的缺藥,它是剛好是沒藥啦一個是他可能他沒有採購,另外一個就是剛好是斷藥,這個個別的狀況他沒有採購,剛好是斷藥,他跟他的上個廠家跟這個藥廠都訂不到資訊貨的情況之下那市區藥局...所以他要通報嘛,我們可以幫他來做協調嘛,我們可以去調度嘛現在的問題就...市區藥局都沒有通報?"},{"start":15421.976,"end":15442.626,"text":"很多都沒有通報阿 很多都沒有通報也代表是有通報嘛 很多都沒有通報畢竟還是有通報嘛 有通報我們都有處理了沒有通報的我們就無從知道阿 為什麼會有的藥都沒有通報 我不知道阿 他就通報媒體 沒啦 不然你不會知道 硬公不知道啦你可能不知道 署長應該會知道 我沒有要跟他阿"},{"start":15445.627,"end":15469.821,"text":"不是你把他騙,是怎麼有的會去跟你們通報,有的不會跟你們通報,是什麼問題?我們在管理這整個藥品的供應無虞情況之下。一點點說明,有一些他自己是可以處理的,碰到他自己在業界之間互相調貨,大部分都是這樣處理掉,少部分的話就是沒有,但是他就不通報,我真的也不知道為什麼。市長也不知道為什麼?"},{"start":15474.241,"end":15474.361,"text":"目前為止"},{"start":15496.131,"end":15513.6,"text":"有些比較特殊的用藥還是說他這些藥源基本上是病患特別需要使用的然後我們也會因為像鴻海的這種事件嘛對不對還是一些一些緊急事件我們自己向農業去建立這種冷鏈的系統"},{"start":15514.48,"end":15541.386,"text":"然後把這些藥可以妥善的剛剛委員講的這一類的藥的話因為他會通報大部分都是因為藥廠來通報所以我們就會緊急來開始做專案的採購專案的輸入或專案的製造如果國內自己能夠製造所以這個部分的話都有處理的機制那現在是有一些是個別的像社區藥局這樣他自己沒有備這個藥"},{"start":15543.434,"end":15552.402,"text":"那這個部分結果人家拿處房間來了那他就要調劑嘛啊都沒有這個藥沒有這個藥的時候有幾種解決的方式第一個就是"},{"start":15553.386,"end":15573.637,"text":"業界之間互相去調要第二種情形的話就是請病人把這個處方錢拿回去原來的這個醫療院所看是要改處方還是說就在那個醫療院所去做調劑這個是這樣另外除此之外的case為什麼他就不通報我就不知道了"},{"start":15576.033,"end":15602.986,"text":"時間到了我這邊有一些具體的建議我先順便給部長跟署長做參考好不好但是我覺得部長剛剛這種說明還是有點不太能夠理解你現在講到第二點在社區疫情裡面有然後再回到原有的醫院那不是去到原有醫院又造成排擠的相關的一些情況又會發生所以我們不希望是這樣對嘛我們就在做這樣的一個分歧的怎麼還讓社區的這邊領不到藥然後又再回到原有的醫院"},{"start":15604.101,"end":15620.228,"text":"這個顯然制度上是有問題的啊好謝謝謝謝專委謝謝謝謝劉建國委員的質詢接下來我們請徐欣穎徐欣穎徐欣穎委員不在張家俊張家俊張家俊委員不在鄭振前鄭振前鄭振前委員不在我們請陳瑩委員進行質詢"},{"start":15630.645,"end":15657.664,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請衛福部部長還有健保署署長好,請部長跟署長部長好部長好,署長好部長這個是你去年9月8號受訪的時候有提到明年將要規劃65歲以上的經濟弱勢長者那如果是健保第6類的話,就可以免付保費"},{"start":15658.484,"end":15672.236,"text":"那去年呢我也要你們在這個長者的年齡規定上呢就原住民的部分應該要下修到55歲我想要請教一下部長這個目前規劃的進度如何那所需要的經費大概是多少"},{"start":15675.517,"end":15697.196,"text":"這部分的話我想我現在手上是沒有資料因為規劃是在社家署今天我們沒有來出席所以我想會後是不是我再把資料給委員另外接下來我想在這邊先跟部長說明一下再講一下就是"},{"start":15700.27,"end":15729.169,"text":"就是我是屬於那個山要管海也要管然後台灣本島要管外島也要管的這個管很大的原住民選區的立委但是我沒有要選金門縣長但是特別報告一下在所有這個離島的這個涉及的原住民其實已經超過2000多位了那首先呢我要在這邊特別感謝這個衛福部去年在選舉完之後呢"},{"start":15732.071,"end":15755.243,"text":"金門縣政府有向我澄清希望說我來協助爭取提高金門的醫療給付效益提升計畫也就是所謂的IDS的部分我接到他們的澄清之後也馬上召開了協調會"},{"start":15758.025,"end":15761.91,"text":"很感謝衛福部還有臺北榮總的幫忙在過年之後你們就有同意我的建議增加了400萬元的補助給金門這個部分真的非常感謝"},{"start":15773.904,"end":15802.403,"text":"這件事情我另外要講另外一個層面的問題我在協助爭取金門縣的IDS補助之後縣府有發了新聞稿我想在這個新聞稿上面金門縣政府也特別記錄了整個過程從去年我到金門去拜會我的選民拜會金門縣政府"},{"start":15804.405,"end":15828.019,"text":"現場也很認真也整理了這個他們金門的醫療問題然後後來我們辦公室我在回到臺北之後我們辦公室也非常積極的跟衛福部開協調會協助金門縣政府那在這個過程當中呢多次金門縣政府的同仁也到立法院來我們也在繼續的討論所以這個部分"},{"start":15833.424,"end":15846.478,"text":"現府有發新聞稿在特別把這個整個過程去還原那也特別感謝部長的幫忙也謝謝衛福部那也謝謝我們協助金門縣政府來爭取只是說"},{"start":15849.361,"end":15857.991,"text":"這個新聞出來這個新聞出來之後呢有某委員辦公室就打電話去臭罵了你們一頓據說罵了30幾分鐘那這個"},{"start":15864.7,"end":15881.358,"text":"責備你們的內容主要是因為說為什麼這個金門的事情沒有跟他們辦公室說明啦那這個部分我是覺得說這樣子的責備其實有一點很好笑那為什麼好笑是因為我剛剛講了嘛就是說"},{"start":15883.641,"end":15899.759,"text":"這個原住民立委爭取政策或者是推動這個建設這個行政機關有義務要跟該選區的這個漢人立委做說明嗎那如果按照這樣子的邏輯來講那不管就是說"},{"start":15900.66,"end":15920.743,"text":"任何哪一位立委的跟你們建議或爭取的政策那你們這個全部的人都要來跟我講啊都要來跟我回報啊因為我就跟你說我的選區是全國嘛好同理可證對不對這樣你們不就很累我就打電話去罵你們說為什麼那個南投的沒有跟我講屏東的沒有跟我講"},{"start":15922.224,"end":15947.517,"text":"那所以我也要在這邊呼籲一下我們也是當然就是說很熱心的這些同仁們那我想說自己想要爭取的政見大家就是各自去努力不要為難這個行政機關那部長我還想再提一下就是說我記得你有曾經跟我講過這句經典名言我記得非常清楚"},{"start":15948.177,"end":15954.064,"text":"你有說這個好的政策就不需要去強調著作權了那因為這個離島交通的問題導致這個"},{"start":15959.845,"end":15979.133,"text":"這個離島的這個醫療成本明顯高於本島的這個醫療院所那去年9月我有在這邊質詢要求請你們研議將離島的健保點數加成那而且這件事情我後來我們也是開了好幾場的這個協調會我想這個不曉得你們昨天好像也是有開了針對這個問題又有開會"},{"start":15983.674,"end":16004.124,"text":"聽說有一些好的結果,不曉得你們目前這個狀況是怎麼樣?那這部分是請署長來回答,因為他有比較是經營基金的。謝謝委員關心這個離島的經營成本。那在昨天的醫院總額部門的協商裡面呢,那麼有"},{"start":16005.024,"end":16031.65,"text":"得到同意在這個今年的這個總額裡面有關於這個離島包含這個連江包含這個金門跟澎湖都適用那麼在住院部分那麼加成30%就是加三成這個後面的程序還要再經過共理會然後再爭過預告所以最快的話應該會是在5月1號以後實施"},{"start":16032.568,"end":16051.997,"text":"好謝謝那我想我也很高興聽到有我們初步有這樣子的一個好消息那這個我理解本期理解就是說或許在這樣子的提議要求如果沒有衛福部的這個很強力的這個支持"},{"start":16053.178,"end":16053.638,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16067.694,"end":16085.53,"text":"我幫這個金門爭取到這個IDS400萬元經費的新聞是2月22號見報的那因為這個報紙被其他同仁看到了所以打電話去罵完你們之後呢2月24號"},{"start":16088.642,"end":16116.538,"text":"這個內容呢這件爭取這件事情我們就把我爭取這個提高就是離島健保點數的這件事情拿去做新聞然後寫成是他們辦公室爭取的那我是說我只是想心裡有一個疑惑啦會不會是他們打完電話罵完你們之後我也很想了解說是有哪一位有特別提醒"},{"start":16121.45,"end":16135.562,"text":"陳穎有在幫離島爭取健保點數的加成所以被拿去做新聞我希望我這個情況如果說是我剛剛講的那個樣子的話"},{"start":16138.965,"end":16139.005,"text":"主席"},{"start":16155.097,"end":16155.897,"text":"民眾有知的權利我們這個部分還是要"},{"start":16176.363,"end":16204.57,"text":"長長就是讓民眾很清楚的知道這個過程我們要去還原那因為本席我們辦公室所有同仁的努力也是常常被收割所以呢在經過多年的這個領悟之後呢我覺得未來遇到這種事情我就是要在這裡講清楚那大概是這樣子一起爭取是好事但是馬後炮、移花接木、收割這樣子就不太好"},{"start":16205.766,"end":16223.665,"text":"委員的努力結果大家都看得見但是難免會有這種被收割的一個情況不過我們的同仁被罵也是很習慣好啦 那我們在這邊也是再一次謝謝大家的努力 謝謝"},{"start":16225.96,"end":16226.661,"text":"主席,我請一下部長"},{"start":16254.909,"end":16255.36,"text":"好啊,部長請"},{"start":16260.247,"end":16266.87,"text":"部長我們談缺藥的問題之前有個問題我想要先跟部長做個探討就是為什麼我們民國70幾年就有掛號費的上限的規定那時候沒有那從什麼時候開始有"},{"start":16288.516,"end":16316.408,"text":"我記得是一百零幾年的時候才有這個公告那為什麼會突然想要取消因為我跟委員報告因為從七十幾年的時候那時候的衛生署就有一個解釋這一個所謂的醫療機構的括號費那不是屬於醫療費用是屬於行政費用"},{"start":16317.448,"end":16344.733,"text":"他的目的就是說他不在醫療法的收費標準必須要到衛生局去備查範圍之內所以本來都是這個樣子但是一百零幾年我不知道當時的背景是怎麼樣就突然有一個公告說醫療費的話醫療機構的掛號費如果超出什麼樣的上限之後的話"},{"start":16345.433,"end":16369.849,"text":"那就必須要到衛生局去備查那後來地方的衛生局大部分就拿了這一個公告就去做審查而不是備查就是說那個送過來的我就看如果說超出我們的所謂的一個參考標準的話通通都不准變成實質審查那這樣子就是違反法律的規定"},{"start":16371.97,"end":16397.367,"text":"因為法律沒有規定花費這種行政費用的話必須要去做審查沒有授權行政機關可以做這樣子部長講的我覺得是很有道理可是會不會有一個情形就是說因為他原本可能假如當初就沒有上線的規定"},{"start":16398.53,"end":16416.204,"text":"部長現在講的 我覺得立場上完全認同因為現在有上限 有上限的標準那現在突然取消了 有沒有可能所有的醫院"},{"start":16418.482,"end":16445.194,"text":"如果是聯合的話,那就是公平會會介入,以前曾經有過某一個地區的幾家診所,他們講好了就同時把這瓜費調高,那這公平會就進去了,所以聯合行為是絕對不可以的。我知道啦,可是他總是會有規避的方式,因為大概就是各"},{"start":16448.602,"end":16451.245,"text":"醫療層級相同的他的行政費用其實"},{"start":16454.244,"end":16455.744,"text":"聯合行為最怕的就是同一個區域?"},{"start":16484.731,"end":16499.967,"text":"如果不同區域去聯合的話沒有太大意義因為病人都是會就近去就醫嘛所以如果他同一個區域有幾家的醫療院所同時都長起來的話那我們就請公平會去查"},{"start":16502.011,"end":16504.013,"text":"所以這個問題我覺得最容易發生在醫學中心"},{"start":16523.727,"end":16548.849,"text":"醫學中心因為醫學中心呢就是大家沒得選啦應該也不會啦他已經到最高層級了啦那假如說大家但是要看什麼病啦有些病可能是醫學中心才會處理的那但是大部分的病不會因為醫學中心他也可能可能就是就是以以價自量啦我現在怕產生這個問題啦"},{"start":16551.431,"end":16577.436,"text":"部長你懂我的意思嗎?我知道因為醫學中心他假如說覺得他的病患病患太多他可能當他所有的醫學中心一起一起漲價的時候其實他區域是分散的啦那這當然我們也會監測啦因為情況當然是不一樣不是用區域去看這個"},{"start":16580.939,"end":16604.99,"text":"其實我要來質詢的時候我就知道部長會怎麼回答,我也認同你的觀點不過就是有一些後續的問題我們還是要特別是漲價以後對於經濟比較弱勢的人的權益,這個後續可能要觀察一下"},{"start":16605.75,"end":16623.913,"text":"這個部分的話也跟委員報告,其實我們是在這一個所謂的公財的回饋金的部分的話,有分給各個縣市那他其中要補貼的就是一些低收中低收,他的醫療費、就醫的這個括號費那個是已經寫在那裡?這個有?對對對好,謝謝部長還沒問完藥的部分呢"},{"start":16635.305,"end":16649.157,"text":"我們缺藥的因素大概可以分為三個可能性一個是國際情勢的影響一個原物料的短缺一個國內用藥需求的激增"},{"start":16650.678,"end":16671.506,"text":"請問部長這三個因素哪一個因素對於臺灣影響最大?發生的時候其實是影響最大是第一個啦就是國際情勢國際情勢影響就是找不到了全世界都找不到了全世界都找不到或者說臺灣人家都不會提供到臺灣"},{"start":16673.463,"end":16701.668,"text":"這比方說那有這所謂的封鎖等等這類的情形那假如發生的話怎麼因應?所以我們就必須要在反應要在前面要去做這種預防措施預防措施就是我們會把必要的一些藥品的項目把它列出來然後我們這些藥品的項目的話要增加它的庫存、占備庫存那第二個就是要"},{"start":16703.122,"end":16716.738,"text":"鼓勵國內自己生產,不然的話到時候一封鎖的話,那原廠就進不來了。那自己又沒有辦法製造,這個就會有風險。也就是必須要準備盤點、監控相關的庫存?我們現在有480多項。"},{"start":16722.504,"end":16745.046,"text":"那另外像國內用藥需求激增的話,我們還可以透過加速進口來做處理。我最後再問一個問題就是,我們實施藥品費用分配比例目標"},{"start":16747.491,"end":16770.257,"text":"每年檢討以及調整藥價以後藥商必須要事先跟醫事機構重新議價藥品市場的穩定性會不會比之前兩年調整一次"},{"start":16772.028,"end":16798.525,"text":"會不會不穩定?其實如果他習慣了就會穩定簡單來講這個答案還不錯就可預期可預期的話所有的廠商跟醫療院所都會先預作準備所以這部分的話是如果是他形成一個規則的一個制度的話那應該就會相對是因為之前兩年兩年一次比較可能產生藥價黑洞"},{"start":16800.846,"end":16818.461,"text":"那個幅度會變大,其實對藥廠來講的話也不是我那一年,部長的回答就是只要有預期,大家就會做準備,所以就不會有太大的變化好,謝謝部長、謝謝主席"},{"start":16820.694,"end":16846.011,"text":"好 謝謝楊耀委員的質詢本日會議詢答全部結束委員楊耀、楊瓊英所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":16850.695,"end":16851.457,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16866.316,"end":16866.517,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"15699","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15699","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e73b8a2c1b37799c16979f8fa869aae4d3be8d109af184be4b4e35386cc58d74f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-07","start_time":"2024-03-07T08:30:56+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:29:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14284,"委員發言時間":"08:30:56 - 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那我們原例先介紹在場委員首先我們介紹我們財政委員資深委員吳秉瑞吳委員接著我們介紹與會官員我們的部長財政部部長莊翠雲莊部長綜合規劃師李瓊林司長國際財政司丁碧蓮丁司長"},{"start":1801.026,"end":1809.951,"text":"處參司李健賢師長人事處游梅子處長會計師李秋威處長統計處蔡美娜處長政風是張宏俊處長法制處處長沒有來嘛那我們黃惠玲副處長律師處楊金亨楊處長國庫署陳伯承陳署長"},{"start":1832.338,"end":1858.578,"text":"稅務屬宋秀琳、宋署長官務屬彭英偉、彭署長國財安屬曾國基、曾署長我們財政資訊中心張文希、張主任財政人員訓練所、許玲佑、許所長台北國稅局、吳蓮英、吳局長高雄國稅局、翁培佑、翁局長"},{"start":1860.034,"end":1886.661,"text":"中區國稅局樓美中樓局長南區國稅局李亞金理局長北區國稅局局長李怡惠理局長我們臺灣金融控股有限公司董事長沈榮金 沈董事長總經理魏江林 魏總經理"},{"start":1889.1,"end":1905.606,"text":"臺灣營養董事長與傑琴呂董事長司馬力總經理臺韓人壽有限公司董事長張志宏張董事長總經理劉啟勝劉總經理臺韓綜合證券董事長許慈美許董事長謝秀賢謝總經理"},{"start":1917.992,"end":1942.522,"text":"臺銀證券有限公司董事長許石美徐董事長臺灣綜合保險經濟有限公司董事長歐新祥歐董事長總經理何明堯何總經理臺灣土銀公司董事長謝娟娟薛董事長何英明總經理"},{"start":1945.168,"end":1972.94,"text":"趙鋒、金控、雷仲達董事長、蕭玉梅總經理第一金控董事長、邱月琴、邱董事長趙鋒銀行總經理、胡光華、胡總經理第一金控董事長、邱月琴、邱董事長"},{"start":1974.717,"end":2000.478,"text":"陳芬蘭總經理第13銀行總經理李嘉祥李總經理華南金礦董事長張迎鵬張董事長總經理李耀清李總經理合作金庫金礦董事長董瑞兵董董事長好我待會補我待會補董事長還有華南銀行總經理黃俊志黃總經理"},{"start":2004.09,"end":2031.138,"text":"合作金庫合作金庫的總經理陳美竹陳總經理合作金庫商業銀行董事長林衍茂林董事長總經理蘇佐正蘇總經理張瑩董事長林中元林董事長總經理周曹崇周總經理台灣中小企銀董事長劉佩金劉董事長張智堅總經理"},{"start":2035.865,"end":2062.182,"text":"中國輸入銀行理事主席戴登山戴主席總經理謝富華、謝總經理台灣研究公司董事長丁彥哲、丁董事長總經理林士傑、林總經理財政部印刷廠長王國榮、王廠長官網網路公司董事長張璐生、張董事長總經理高國豐、高總經理"},{"start":2065.953,"end":2094.907,"text":"中央債保公司董事李一芬臺灣金聯公司董事長施俊吉斯董事長臺灣金融資產服務有限公司董事長陳美如陳董事長臺北金融大樓總經理朱立文總經理臺灣金融聯合都跟有限公司董事長林旺根人董事長"},{"start":2098.357,"end":2102.703,"text":"好以上按照今日的議程安排由財政部業務報告現在請財政部莊部長進行業務報告"},{"start":2112.813,"end":2135.972,"text":"主席、各位委員先進、大家早安今天貴委員會召開第11屆第1會期全體委員的會議本人應邀率本部主管同仁列席並提出業務報告以下請就中央政府總預算、收入的編列還有執行情形以及近半年重要的施政績效和未來的施政方向以及重點來進行報告"},{"start":2137.893,"end":2144.835,"text":"有關中央政府總預算112年度的執行情形在稅路部分我們實收數有2兆8993億元達成預算數的112.4%那就這個稅路來源的部分我簡要做一個說明最大宗的就是稅客收入我們實收數有2兆4883億元達成預算數的113.4%"},{"start":2163.22,"end":2174.684,"text":"主要是綜合所得稅、營業稅、政交稅、營利事業所得稅以及關稅增加的緣故在營業營餘及事業收入的部分時收數達到2541億元達成預算數的是96%"},{"start":2180.486,"end":2182.107,"text":"至於在規費、罰賠款、財產收入還有其他收入實收數達到1569億達成預算數的是130.8%在融資性的財源部分我們舉借債務的預算數是1732億元由於稅務執行優於一期所以我們全數並沒有舉借債務還本原來的預算數是1110億元"},{"start":2206.409,"end":2222.362,"text":"我們也全數執行完畢並且增加還本150億元全年總共還本1260億元中央政府總預算在113年度的編列情形做以下報告在稅路的編列是兩兆7252億元稅出編列兩兆8519億元稅出稅路的差短有1267億元加計債務還本1150億元以及融資需"},{"start":2233.43,"end":2233.991,"text":"總預算舉債佔稅出比例5.5%"},{"start":2250.649,"end":2253.231,"text":"我們並記當年度的前瞻基礎建設計劃等四項特別預算那麼合計的舉債的預算數是3569億元預估113年底中央政府一年以上公共債務未償餘額是6兆8092億元"},{"start":2267.422,"end":2272.243,"text":"一年以上公共債務未償餘額的實際數是五兆九千六百三十八億元占前三年度明目GDP的平均數是百分之二十六點四"},{"start":2295.45,"end":2309.675,"text":"接續報告本部近年重要的一個施政績效陳蒙貴委員會的協助我們順利完成了所得稅法第17條防誤稅條例的部分條文等修正案我們透過不斷的優化稅制減輕民眾的租稅負擔同時也完成全民共享普發現金6000元還有強化國有財產管理以及運用多元引導推動促進民間參與公共建設"},{"start":2320.718,"end":2336.563,"text":"以及推展國際財政以及官務的合作並且在兼顧便捷以及效能之下我們提供安全快速通關服務都具有相當的成效相關的資料也請各位委員參閱我們的書面報告第三頁到第二十頁"},{"start":2337.463,"end":2362.668,"text":"最後我要跟各位報告我們未來的施政方向以及重點首先國庫業務的部分在多元籌措財源維持財政穩健方面我們會橫租國內外的財經情勢多元籌措預算的資源支應政府各項的施政以及建設我們會克遵公共債務法以及財政紀律法嚴格控管年度稅率稅數的差短以及財務的比例維持財政的穩健"},{"start":2365.709,"end":2380.014,"text":"在加強地方債務控管方面我們會按月監管債務的情形敦促地方政府改善債務的狀況同時我們會透過考核輔導以及教育研習等等方式來協助爭域地方的"},{"start":2381.041,"end":2395.036,"text":"自治財源在強化公股股權的管理方面持續督導落實執行ESG的倡議平台執行方案包括經濟金融服務業公平代課的原則並且以貨品前20%為目標"},{"start":2397.498,"end":2422.608,"text":"以及多元開發優質普惠金融商品等等達成金融永續發展政策目標在督導公益彩券發行方面除了適時辦理相關活動來提升銷售來增育社福的財源以及穩定經銷商收入之外我們並且要落實發行銷售等等的規範來健全市場的一個秩序維護公益的形象"},{"start":2423.228,"end":2440.952,"text":"在付稅業務方面我們會營造友善的付稅環境為了增進扣繳義務人的權益保護等需要我們修正所得稅法為了掌握營業人開立電子發票的情形保障交易相對人取得合法憑證以及維護消費者對講的權益修正營業稅法"},{"start":2445.013,"end":2468.892,"text":"為了落實納稅者權利保護法的意旨我們會修正煙酒稅法等這些法律有關財閥倍數的一些規定在優化報稅繳稅服務措施方面我們今年5月會進一步的精進綜合所得稅網路申報附件上傳的服務另外在今年11月起我們會新增房屋稅、地價稅還有使用牌照稅補徵案件線上繳稅的服務"},{"start":2472.054,"end":2479.138,"text":"在促進國際財政合作的交流方面持續地會推動與經貿關係密切國家來洽簽租稅協定並且擴展我國執行稅務用途資訊交換的網絡以及透過參與國際組織還有與理念相近的國家積極的合作提升我們的國際能見度"},{"start":2492.446,"end":2501.215,"text":"在關務業務的部分我們要持續的推動關務法規的合理化以及配合我國和馬紹爾經濟合作協定關稅減讓的承諾等修正海關進口稅責並且發展AI稅責分類的服務方面從113年在114年我們會建置完成有關稅責分類輔助系統以及"},{"start":2515.969,"end":2518.55,"text":"以及稅責查詢系統減少徵納雙方的爭議。在深化雙邊以及多邊官務合作部分配合臺美21世紀貿易倡議的首批協定定定相關的行政規則並且和經貿關係密切的國家"},{"start":2531.736,"end":2548.891,"text":"恰簽稅務付諸協定,促進跨境貿易的安全以及便捷。在國產業務的部分,我們會積極推動國有、非公用、不動產、接管、管理、改良利用等各項的業務增進管理效能,並且以多元的方式活化運用資產,帶動相關產業以及公共建設的發展。"},{"start":2552.754,"end":2560.739,"text":"在促餐業務的部分我們會適時檢討相關的法規命令並且研修作業手冊以及範本等來完備促餐2.0的法制環境並且透過強化輔導以及考核作業提升促餐推動的量能以上是財政工作的重點報告承蒙貴委員會的協助以及督促讓本部的各項業務可以順利的推展並且能夠有所成效"},{"start":2578.47,"end":2596.719,"text":"去年的瑞士洛杉瓦管理學院公布的2023年世界競爭力年報我國的財政情勢進步了4名而達到了第6名主要是反映政府持續減少舉債以及增加還本顯見近年我國的財務管控良好"},{"start":2597.239,"end":2620.284,"text":"落實財政健全受到國際的肯定未來本部將會持續秉持著為民服務的精神在兼顧財政穩健以及經濟發展的需求下努力推動各項財政的業務共同為我國長遠的發展打下堅韌的基礎敬請各位委員支持以及指教使財政工作能夠更真完善謝謝大家"},{"start":2621.164,"end":2641.601,"text":"好 謝謝總部長現在開始詢答先做以下宣告每位初期委員發言的時間為8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言的時間為5分鐘必要時的延長1分鐘那今日上午10點30分呢截止發言登記現在依照登記順序請登記第一位的林德福委員質詢"},{"start":2658.466,"end":2674.117,"text":"謝謝主席與會的莊部長還有這個所有與會的官員各位董事長、總經理還有我們各位同仁以及媒體記者、女士先生是不是請那個莊部長有請莊部長委員好部長你好部長我請教因為對於娛樂稅、貨物稅、印花稅"},{"start":2686.124,"end":2709.564,"text":"有很多委員在院會執行的時候都表示這三種稅務是不合時宜的稅制那對此行政院長陳建仁回應說任何稅制的改革都需要中央以及地方一起來研議那財政部的理由則是影響地方的財政那我請問部長"},{"start":2711.666,"end":2737.256,"text":"對這三種稅制的檢討財政部是不是認為三種稅務完全沒有修改的空間是不是跟委員一項一項說明第一個就是印花稅的部分那印花稅是屬於地方稅那是屬於器具的稅那麼它的一年收入大概有170億是地方非常重要的財源我們邀請地方政府來開會他們認為說這個地方是他們非常重要的一個自籌財源他們反對廢紙"},{"start":2738.977,"end":2744.759,"text":"這是地方稅,我們必須要尊重地方自治以及它的財政自主那至於娛樂稅的部分當然隨著經濟發展以及娛樂活動的項目總統有些改變是可以檢討那當然我們也認為說在項目上也許可以做一些檢討在稅率的上限上也可以檢討或者是說我們授權給地方政府的某種逃避但是行之有年財政部幾乎是奴奴不動"},{"start":2762.785,"end":2768.146,"text":"我們其實都很積極一直跟地方政府在討論你認為在哪些條件下才有檢討的空間呢我想這個分開來談比如說委員提到貨物稅的部分貨物稅的部分其實現在的一個課徵是有一些導正一些消費行為比如說在汽機車的部分或者是節能電器的部分買節能家電其實貨物稅可以減徵然後在電動車跟電動機車貨物稅其實前面"},{"start":2790.811,"end":2810.787,"text":"希望引導消費者走向節能減碳當然貨物稅我們會看著整個碳費的執行情形我瞭解我等下就需要跟你探討這些這個來做研究對那個部長因為時空環境不一樣你不能把過去那一套一定會得用到現在不可是"},{"start":2812.208,"end":2837.204,"text":"應該要調整要改進部長國際在推動全球最低的稅賦制財政部互稅署署長去年也表示說因為因應全球稅改方案以及兩大支柱的進展財政部滾動式的檢討這些相關的稅制那我請問部長全球最低稅賦制的推動是不是只會影響跨國企業呢"},{"start":2838.104,"end":2856.019,"text":"全球最低稅負值主要是在於跨國企業的集團他必須要達到一定的一個稅率否則他就可以補徵稅那在這個部分財政部也在關注世界各國的一個推動情形那我們也在研擬相關的方案那你認為我們中小企業會不會受到影響他全球最低稅負值他有一個門檻應該是全球的稅達到"},{"start":2861.069,"end":2882.183,"text":"對以及還對對中小企業這個部分我們在研擬方案的時候也會再考慮那個部長因為媒體報導財政部考慮差別的稅率可行性也就是年營收達到GMT門檻門檻者再調高稅率以保障中小企業不受影響那"},{"start":2885.978,"end":2912,"text":"請問部長採用GMT門檻作為全球最低的稅務制的適用的做法你認為會不會扼殺有競爭力的中小企業壯大的可能會不會我覺得我們在研擬相關的方案的時候我們會根據各國的一個推動情形以及各個企業的一個體質以及他的狀況來做一些研擬然後避免有所衝擊"},{"start":2913.061,"end":2932.311,"text":"因為本席認為說目前在全球化發展下中小企業所處的環境除了要生存要成長還要面臨各種的挑戰那政府應該對行之有年的稅制要有重新檢討的必要因為"},{"start":2933.411,"end":2955.445,"text":"財政健全不只是只有節流更要有創造開源的這些精神才有永續發展的可能你認為呢認同委員的一個意見那我覺得稅制當然也要與時俱進對啊你要時空環境不一樣當然要與時俱進那當然地方政府的意見依然是要我們要參考"},{"start":2957.438,"end":2976.128,"text":"我們整個臺灣經濟尤其是我們經濟研究院院長張建一去年表示說影響明年景氣互輸最大不確定的因素是通膨那臺灣景氣要完整而且要全面性互輸預估要等到明年的上半年那部長"},{"start":2977.048,"end":2991.532,"text":"我請問你因為媒體有報導財政部累計前2月出口估計、估算將正成長6.6%至8.6%而且財政部認為景氣復甦的趨勢是不變出口春暖花開的時間點是落在3月到5月那我請問部長媒體報導"},{"start":3003.995,"end":3024.17,"text":"財政部認為景氣復甦的趨勢不變本期再確認一次財政部是不是認定景氣已經脫離谷底了是不是已經脫離谷底了跟委員報告我們的景氣跟我們的出口值會息息相關那從去年的第4季開始我們的出口已經成為正成長"},{"start":3025.331,"end":3027.832,"text":"今年1月出口值也達到371.9億美元那是歷年同月的次高在1月份那你認為是不是脫離谷底我們認為已經從谷底上來了那3月開始就會好轉是不是應該會逐步的好轉那當然國際間的一個情勢仍然它有一個不可預測的因素在裡面"},{"start":3050.297,"end":3065.126,"text":"對,所以說本期要請教說到底這個好轉是短期的現象還是全面性的復甦呢?以目前來看它是一個平穩而且溫和的一個復甦部長,因為台金院民間預測機構認為國內應該會呈現U型的這個復甦但U型底部會持續稍微久一點的時間而且復甦啊"},{"start":3076.67,"end":3093.834,"text":"還要看整個國際到底有沒有這些需求所以說部長國際主要預測機構都認為說今年的經濟將會受到美國跟中國不足啊美中不足全球受累的影響那美中兩大經濟體分別"},{"start":3096.135,"end":3105.743,"text":"面臨消費以及投資的不利因素的困擾呈現美跟中不足請問部長你認為美中經濟體的負面狀況對台灣到底有沒有影響"},{"start":3115.441,"end":3138.296,"text":"當然會有因為我們是以出口導向的國家那美國也好中國大陸也好都是我們出口國家那當然這兩個國家的一些科技的角力還有地緣政治的緊張都會影響到我們的出口但是目前來看全球的貿易值是往上平穩的上升那這對我們的出口是正面而且我們對美國跟東歐洲國家的出口其實也一直在增長"},{"start":3139.161,"end":3164.912,"text":"那你認為從財政部進出口統計的面向來看臺灣對美國中國的這些經貿統計是不是有受到衝擊有沒有在美國其實是成長的而且尤其是我們的AI電子車用的電子等等這些新興科技其實在美國部分我們是成長蠻多的一個比例那如果要是沒有衝擊那是不是代表臺灣可以置身事外"},{"start":3166.64,"end":3187.995,"text":"在這個國際的經濟情勢裡面沒有任何可以置身事外的那如果要是有衝擊你認為政府企業要怎麼樣來因應美國跟中國經濟體的變局呢其實美國跟中國的經濟體的一個角力這個時間已經有一段時間那我們的各個企業其實他們都已經有在做一些應變的一些措施包括這個"},{"start":3188.835,"end":3211.288,"text":"有關這個供應鏈的布局然後再都有一些改變我相信這個部分大家都會有一些觀察以及應變的措施這樣齁部長根據財政統計的通報112年出口前50名的廠商占差不多一半以上的數啊都是出口五年來集中度提升12.6%齁"},{"start":3213.709,"end":3226.868,"text":"的百分比那部長前50大含瓜、晶圓代工、IC設計、封測等這些電子業那石化、鋼鐵、筆電、面板"},{"start":3229.251,"end":3235.435,"text":"這些產業大廠及運輸物流出口的占比已經從38.9%提升到51.5%那我請問你認為出口持續集中這些特定產業讓我們整個對這個國內經濟發展"},{"start":3247.102,"end":3252.745,"text":"您認為這是好現象嗎?根委員報告確實我國在國際間的競爭優勢是以電子資通訊的產業是最強的因此我們的出口結構就高度集中在電子零組件還有資通訊產品那再加上這幾年的因為這近年的AI的新興應用的商機蓬勃所以我們的出口就會集中在這個部分那當然產業是不是過度的一個集中是不是一個好的現象"},{"start":3273.556,"end":3301.112,"text":"當然是目前來說是也非常好的也非常那個持續的延燒對我們出口值的成長有很大的幫助但是會不會承受相關的一些風險也會高那我想這個部分經濟部跟國發會都有在評論那個部長央行理監事會曾經討論產業結構過度集中啊這些問題如果由出口集中現象來看請問部長在解決產業結構過度集中的問題上政府是不是做得不夠"},{"start":3303.916,"end":3323.968,"text":"這部分經濟部一直都在輔導相關的產業轉型跟升級然後提升國際的競爭力都一直持續都在做那你認為這些對整個國內經濟成長未來會不會產生一些衝擊呢當然會有一些正面的效應喔這樣喔 是好 我時間到 其他下次再問 謝謝是 謝謝委員謝謝林德福委員的質詢接著我們請吳秉二委員質詢"},{"start":3342.97,"end":3347.313,"text":"主席麻煩請財政部莊部長有請莊部長委員早部長早因為臺灣雖然現在的這個電子產業尤其是晶片這個AI產業等等非常的發達可是我們臺灣從過往的歷史來看我們中小企業"},{"start":3372.349,"end":3398.965,"text":"的穩健跟成長一直是我們台灣經濟的一個亮點如果跟韓國這種國家比起來的話在蘇貞昌院長當行政院長的任內他改變了這個對於銀行公股銀行的考評其中有一個很重要的就是對中小企業的放款因為以前可能說我對大企業"},{"start":3400.117,"end":3414.24,"text":"一次借幾十億小企業、中小企業可能借幾百萬幾千萬那我還不如這個大企業做一家所放款的金額比中小企業做上百家還要大"},{"start":3415.558,"end":3439.49,"text":"所以以前如果是用金額來作為評估績效的時候那會政策上面引導就使得大家比較忽視相對起來會比較忽視中小企業的貸款那我想請問喔 孫政院長離院之後現在是陳建仁院長在當行政院長這樣子的政策跟這樣的評估有改變嗎?"},{"start":3441.206,"end":3469.6,"text":"跟委員報告確實您提到蘇院長那個時候對我們公股、行庫各個銀行對於中小企業的金融資源是非常支持不能只是以金額而是以件數因為跟大客戶做一件可能小做100件可能大家都不願意去做這個小額的所以有這樣考評而且甚至用秘密課的方式來做來做偵測那其實財政部對於中小企業的一個金融資源持續在做我們推出了千億振興方案以這個我們的以公股、行庫自有資金以6000億"},{"start":3470.7,"end":3470.9,"text":"總共有33700多戶"},{"start":3484.585,"end":3508.484,"text":"部長我現在要問的是說跟那個時候比起來你現在的這個評比的標準有改變嗎?沒有變大家的成績有比以前更好嗎?我們在這邊當這個成績的比較我剛剛提到就是我們的一個總數以及加數也非常的多而且我們是以中小企業還是微型轉型升級這個我想這個部分這個對象是非常明確的"},{"start":3509.229,"end":3526.158,"text":"好 那先暫停一下主席是不是請公股行庫的董事長上台說明一下他們請時間暫停 請各公股行庫董事長上台說明目前放貸的情形對中小企業放貸的情形跟以前的比較"},{"start":3554.341,"end":3577.411,"text":"來,哪一位先?台營要不要先?我想我就不一一針對我就這樣子請教各位董事長以前在對中小企業的這個放款有一段時間我知道是很受到中小企業的稱讚那比例也真的增加很多那現在跟那一段"},{"start":3578.467,"end":3589.247,"text":"放款對中小企業比例很高的那段時間比起來你認為你現在對中小企業的放款仍然持續這個政策而且有增加的可不可以拜託請你舉手看看"},{"start":3593.247,"end":3606.921,"text":"請放下來那就是大家都認為說自己的行庫對於中小企業的放款持續關心而且持續認真在做而不以金額作為標準那這樣很好謝謝你們請回座謝謝"},{"start":3616.035,"end":3631.26,"text":"我想我要這樣問的原因是因為我們台灣這兩三年來尤其是電子業方面的欣欣向榮還有各項的產業其實有的增加了包括在綠能包括在生技"},{"start":3632.16,"end":3646.748,"text":"當然因為有中國這個他只管生產沒有管競爭的那一些鴻海的競爭的產業這幾年是相當相當不好那中國產能一開出來台灣的跟他因為那都後面有很大的政府補貼那一部分是辛苦的"},{"start":3648.018,"end":3668.957,"text":"除了那個不論之外其他的行業我是覺得都很不錯不過我們在整個行業很不錯的時候我們就是要重視要讓中小企業能夠得到更強健穩固因為大部分的就業機會是在中小企業這個行業上面部長不知道你贊不贊成這樣的想法沒有錯是的中小企業是我們非常重要的一個經濟發展的主幹"},{"start":3671.879,"end":3692.788,"text":"既然這樣台灣這幾年經濟有成長經濟的成果我們政府施政都是希望能夠讓更多人能夠來共同享受所以我們以前有一個中小企業發展條例它對於這個經濟指數達到一定的狀況之下如果對於本國級現職基層員工加薪"},{"start":3695.728,"end":3721.361,"text":"那它加薪的部分扣底可以到130%嘛對不對可是這個今年就要到期了先請教財政部對於這個經濟部的想法說要延長它的適用期間不知道你贊不贊成這個部分我們跟經濟部已經討論也會第一個會同意而且對於相關的門檻跟條件認為也應該要放寬讓更多的企業可以適用"},{"start":3722.833,"end":3747.316,"text":"其實重點是在這邊,因為以前訂那個法律的時候很奇怪是訂一個事業比例要高達多少以上那事實上台灣這幾年來的經濟成長是我們的失業率很難達到那個標準只有在民國2006年2007年就是民國95年民國96年的時候曾經有這樣的使用以此的"},{"start":3748.893,"end":3767.107,"text":"條例實施了這麼久總共金額才六千萬然後因為百分之百三十獲得利益才一千五百多萬一千七百多萬所以這個有定跟沒定一樣幾乎用得到的人實在太少了所以你說這個放寬的條件第一個"},{"start":3768.488,"end":3781.477,"text":"這個要失業率達到多少以上這個比例是不是要拿掉因為跟我們剛剛講的我們是希望經濟發展的果實大家共享如果你還定說一定要失業多少以上的時候我這個才能啟動那這個達不到我剛剛這樣講的目的這個不知道你贊不贊成"},{"start":3785.28,"end":3785.74,"text":"財政部提供相關的意見"},{"start":3804.959,"end":3833.409,"text":"據我內部的瞭解原來加薪可以折算企業成本的130%你們也打算折算到150%嗎?那台灣就業尤其是領薪水的這個階層常常抱怨就是說薪資他們認為是不夠的但是我們同一個時間企業卻在大幅的獲利包括我們的稅收都大幅增加你看你今年的報告今年光是"},{"start":3834.989,"end":3853.58,"text":"昨年光是跟預算數相比光稅負的部分又多增了2900多億對不對那可見還在蓬勃發展那今年開春以來股市也一直成交量一直放大那個交易稅也會增加所以我是覺得"},{"start":3854.821,"end":3870.452,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":3871.427,"end":3890.186,"text":"讓員工能夠加薪讓壽星階級的稀水能夠增加這樣子的話所以我希望你們在訂這個政策什麼時候會送到立法院來審目前在那個經濟部正在預告當中那預告完他會送到行政院然後再送立法院因為4月底就要截止嘛所以一定要在這個時間以前"},{"start":3891.207,"end":3918.501,"text":"那送來這個會期來得及嗎?因為你那個5月19屆期你這個屆期是5月幾欸那你送到立法院來立法的時間這樣子是否夠充裕我們會讓他追溯然後做一個接續這樣那趕快跟各界溝通啦好最後就你的報告我有一個第二頁你今年的收入比預算數多很多去年啦提供最多的"},{"start":3919.491,"end":3926.498,"text":"是歸費、罰賠款還有財產其他收入你的預算是1200億結果實際收1569億超過369億達到130.8%這裡面增加的主要是哪裡?如果是罰賠款那原因在哪裡?"},{"start":3943.242,"end":3960.582,"text":"這個部分我們是不是在了解因為有時候罰賠款它是一個不確定的一個因素那增加最多的是事實上是財產收入財產收入增加最多的原因是什麼財產收入國產署的地上權的標售地上權的權利金的收入"},{"start":3961.448,"end":3979.218,"text":"如果是這個話那還可以接受啦但是我們大台北地區超過500平方公尺上的土地現在其實不能飆售了是不飆售的對但是因為知識收入也是屬於財產收入的一項那地方政府跟中央政府這個態度之間的差距就變成地方政府可以賣中央政府不能"},{"start":3980.615,"end":4004.857,"text":"會不會有這樣的問題內政部現在正在協調內政部正在協調地方政府因為那屬於受締當然是屬於地方自治的事項內政部會去跟他們協調另外還有一個常常被詬病的就是說您標售土地的時候您那個市讓得標的價格都遠比原來的市價要高造成房地產不停地在拉高因為成本墊高就會拉高這個價格這個問題有沒有想過要怎麼樣解決"},{"start":4007.799,"end":4021.37,"text":"對啦,那個標售底價有的時候會就是說,因為他一定要拿到底價高才能買得到嘛,所以有時候這個公有土地的標售會成為一個定貓的效果。但是那個制度,制度你如果是用標的,在競標的時候本來就會加價才標得到。"},{"start":4023.331,"end":4041.617,"text":"我們現在國有土地幾乎都不標售了都不標售那因為大面積不標了嘛然後以設定地上權的方式那目前設定地上權的方式國產署也開始用比較主動的方式也就是設定產業配合國家政策比如說我設定這個產業而不是過往只是按權利金的高低來做競標這個如果要改變"},{"start":4044.741,"end":4045.341,"text":"謝謝吳秉仁委員的質詢 接著我們請賴氏保留委員質詢"},{"start":4075.861,"end":4082.065,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進我們有請財政部的莊部長有請莊部長委員好你早啊我想先請問你啊這個稍微停一下吧這電腦把我問出來等一下喔等一下我們時間暫停"},{"start":4135.805,"end":4137.186,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4163.939,"end":4165.72,"text":"財政部的立場是怎麼樣?是說要繼續維持這樣子"},{"start":4186.577,"end":4189.74,"text":"跟委員報告是在營業稅法裡面是規定那個2%的金融營業稅"},{"start":4202.611,"end":4203.031,"text":"提供的資料"},{"start":4224.164,"end":4228.887,"text":"因為在103年為了財政健全方案的時候說這個3%部分結繳國庫那在討論我想這個部分呢我們跟金管會也都一直在密切的一些討論因為這個稅額稅制的部分第一個我們會收集國際間對於金融這個業的一個相關的稅收不管是營業稅或其他的稅整個加錢整個目前來說它稅務是怎麼樣這個各個金融業的一個稅負的負擔"},{"start":4250,"end":4250.44,"text":"主席李卓人議員"},{"start":4270.253,"end":4289.218,"text":"這部份就是我們必須還要再跟金管會的聯誼因為他今年底﹖你找他你找他不會啦我們兩個都是互相的在密切的討論外面有兩種聲音啦外面有兩種聲音啦第一個聲音說他說營業稅都5%為什麼金融業要退回去給他講可是金融業有講說"},{"start":4295.792,"end":4309.828,"text":"全世界金融業的營業稅沒有這麼高因為它沒有鏡像可以扣那個5%是因為有鏡像可以扣它沒有鏡像所以不應該這麼高這兩個稅你怎麼樣對 所以跟委員報告我們會跟國際間的其他的他們的稅賦來做一個比較什麼時候會有答案"},{"start":4317.476,"end":4344.743,"text":"會有答案啦那我想我們會跟金管會持續的努力還是還是因為你現在是看守那個你不要做決定了就拖給下一任部長沒有我們一直都在相關的資料收集跟討論那我問你之前可以出來嗎這個我沒有辦法做這樣的一個確定討論的不要那麼久啦討論這是很大的事情欸是這是很大的事情欸對但是因為時間一直到12月底嘛嗯"},{"start":4347.022,"end":4370.45,"text":"我們看到美國眾議院在1月1通過了台灣租稅的協定就是讓台美關係往上升台美可以互相免重複課稅的事情這個事情你掌握得怎麼樣參議院還要通過、眾議院通過、參議院還要通過再總統簽署"},{"start":4374.111,"end":4383.379,"text":"是,我們一直持續的密切關注跟駐美代表處以及外交部那這個部分就如同委員的簡報上1月31號美國眾院已經通過了那還要經過參院的通過那參院通過以後要經過總統簽署以後我們跟美國還要做一個國際文書的交換我們要承諾我們提供"},{"start":4394.329,"end":4423.24,"text":"互惠平等的一個租稅減免那這樣就可以生效那當然因爲參院這個地方還在做研議所以審議當中所以並沒有時間上我們當然會密切的一個關注那我們的駐美組表會議在溝通這個事情竟然中院通過了而且老實講這也是美國對外對台灣的一個承諾我的猜測在他們的總統大選今年11月之前應該可以搞定"},{"start":4424.23,"end":4449.11,"text":"有同意嗎?你同意董災社嗎?我們希望,我們也非常希望這樣,是。非常希望就是說這個事情?對。因為這個審議老實講也沒有什麼太了不起的,因為它是放在其他的案子裡面,它不是,它並不是寫你是中院這樣子可是參院出來的,不是是什麼勞工什麼法案裡面租稅的減免什麼之類的,放在那個。"},{"start":4451.052,"end":4470.253,"text":"對對放在那個案子裡面的裡面才談到這一段也談一小段對對有是其中的項目啦但是目前它並不是說有一個法案是這個法案不是那個是美國有一個法案但是呢會牽涉到有關於台灣的這個要租稅的相關的這個"},{"start":4471.855,"end":4480.859,"text":"免重複課稅放在裏面他是一個專章他們的國內稅法裏面有個專章還有一個授權法所以我們會持續的關注也會跟住美代表處跟美國財政部再鋪許一下吧我想他們選舉也需要這個要華人的票嘛這個東西董事長是蠻重要的好我們再看這個二位有關心的這個"},{"start":4501.138,"end":4524.587,"text":"根據我關入署查的資料現在最夯的一個慈安的一個庭屋叫蘇丹宏結果我一看嚇一跳沒有看的不知道 看了嚇一跳一百一十一年 一百二十二年一百一十二年你看蘇丹宏一號到四號總共數量多少一百六十公克啊一點點啊這麼少"},{"start":4527.697,"end":4540.205,"text":"我再查另外一個資料才看到了番薑酥就是等於辣椒粉啦辣椒粒啦這個呢就不一樣喔3000多公噸等於300"},{"start":4543.607,"end":4564.474,"text":"三百萬公斤了因為一公噸等於一千公斤了所以然後現在看到有高雄關的地檢署查哇不得了查兩家公司有三萬結果查到三萬這是多少這是三百零一萬公斤了他只有查三萬公斤而已我現在問你這個你沒吃到多餘喔"},{"start":4565.52,"end":4584.762,"text":"海關來的話從海關大盤商、大盤小盤商到食品業者每一個階段都有發票對吧來來來部長是不是如果正式的正常應該有發票這個部分我是關於署跟或者是複稅署回答一下複稅署來來來回答一下"},{"start":4585.814,"end":4593.949,"text":"都會發表對不對?大概委員如果他進口他有去申報我們講的業缺關稅我們就會有發表他進口進來絕對是有申報啊然後大盤商他賣給"},{"start":4599.656,"end":4599.836,"text":"李中階﹖對﹖"},{"start":4617.446,"end":4633.522,"text":"我覺得現在的衛福部還有所謂的死案集團這個迷思其實我們財政部可以提供很大的幫助給他發票給衛福部相關的發票資料給我們地方政府的衛生局發票的資料"},{"start":4635.283,"end":4653.683,"text":"他們幫忙攻擊,很快就抓到了,否則現在人心惶惶啊,大家想說哎喲我整個天去吃那個大方銀雞啊,去吃三回,啊裡面會有辣油,吃一包一包,吃到肝就不知道要怎麼樣,而且保留發票,他說消費者保留發票啊,他說球場用的"},{"start":4655.465,"end":4673.336,"text":"委員我想這個部分 委員很重要 所以發表資料我們可以提供給衛福部去做事可以吧 請你主動提供給衛福部 主動提供給各縣市政府告訴他們說 這個可以幫助你攻擊去抓到還有哪一些蘇丹農"},{"start":4675.737,"end":4698.994,"text":"可以嗎?馬上做喔!就是回去就做了喔!這個絕對是有幫助的喔!要不然呢現在檢察官查了半天就查了3萬你現在3千有301萬公斤勒不要去看那個只有什麼蘇丹農蘇丹農今天一點點而已我們看下一頁那品名的部分我們跟衛生部再討論"},{"start":4702.123,"end":4709.065,"text":"過去大家有關心的有很多國家隊我就舉3個雞蛋國家隊補助了34億綠門國家隊補助了256億電動大客車國家隊補助了600億請問這些帶給國家多少的銀索稅"},{"start":4723.541,"end":4745.949,"text":"我沒有做這方面的統計你統計一下可以嗎?回去統計國家對我們要去了解一下這個補助出來疫情期間他沒有免稅喔還是要繳稅的喔我們去了解一下這個行業別是什麼來了解一下可以嗎?我再告訴你們資料其實你們財政部都有資料"},{"start":4747.009,"end":4763.174,"text":"按照如果沒有那個的話就按照書面你們抓他的獲利是8%因所所以20%所以就是1.6%這個呢Google一下都有這樣的資料我就告訴你你們是可以這樣懲罰的就1.6%最後一題最後一題你那個剛剛那個資料啊"},{"start":4767.735,"end":4776.761,"text":"部長,剛剛那個資料兩個禮拜內給我可以嗎?可以好了好,最後一點也是很重要的今天八大航庫都在這裡我們軍公教加4%義營、台積營、核庫、華營都是4%張營張營沒有4%喔"},{"start":4794.844,"end":4811.224,"text":"他用搶金的方式指揮張雲董事長在不在啊?你們來一下我證明我怎麼知道?趙鋒他平均要4.5%比Average高了24%台銀跟土林是因為另外的制度那就不在這裡面了張雲"},{"start":4814.405,"end":4830.655,"text":"這個就不調底薪我就請問部長要不要責成章文啊真的這些老公員工都很辛苦啊大家打拼了你就不要用什麼獎金高手那個另外算但是你調薪就調底薪可不可以這個是不是我們讓董事長說明一下可不可以"},{"start":4833.648,"end":4855.566,"text":"報告委員其實我們每一年都有調薪因為我們的薪資的制度跟其他的行庫的標準不太一樣因為其他的行庫他們都是用這個直擊的方式那每年就會自動調薪但是我們是整體性的調薪另外我們也希望說透過獎金的方式對同仁的那個獎金公會在意的很簡單大家都很清楚"},{"start":4856.704,"end":4884.661,"text":"你不要放底薪會影響到他的退休金啦就是這樣而已啦 差在這啦所以你回去研究一下好不好這是很多的 其實是不僅僅只有張穎啦大家所有的航空的勞工都有這樣的心聲啦你今年的話其他的航空都調四包 下一次說不定委員會看贏嗎下一次看張穎這樣子他學張穎來個通通調獎金那感覺不好 感覺不好好不好 謝謝"},{"start":4887.052,"end":4888.673,"text":"主席有請莊部長請財政部莊部長"},{"start":4908.157,"end":4922.456,"text":"委員好部長好部長在您的這個報告書像說未來的一個施政的重點當中呢有特別提到優化報稅的一個服務嗎還說推動官務合理化法規合理化"},{"start":4923.317,"end":4949.605,"text":"昨天本席剛好有去台北關去進行這個考察在考察的過程當中我們就發現了一些相關的問題就教於部長特別現在呢這個國貿網路公司自從這個1億位實名制之後已經高達526萬那也整個電商產業的這個數字跟金額也是攀升的速度非常之快非常之高這種情況底下我們卻發現一個問題就是說呢"},{"start":4952.466,"end":4977.854,"text":"在跨境電商民眾在進行消費的時候有三種狀況的情況底下他必須要退貨一個是商品損害第二個呢他呢基本上呢是建廠期裡頭不滿要退貨第三呢是受到詐騙的這種情況但是這裡頭都出現一個問題當他已經被磕碎的時候他進行退稅的時候欸手續都非常的繁瑣這手續多少多繁瑣嗎那個部長"},{"start":4980.65,"end":5006.763,"text":"總共要填寫8份表格包括調換、進貨、免稅、申請書、委任書、身份證、政法面具、竊結書等等總共要8份之多那8份之多還要繳一筆公證費用高達6千你也知道這種B2C的電商產業所消費的金額都不太多往往幾千塊你還要繳6千還要填8份然後"},{"start":5007.463,"end":5020.992,"text":"往往有一些民眾去問相關單位的時候說這沒有辦法這是國外的快遞公司的問題這沒有辦法部長真的沒有辦法嗎目前電商產業已經發展這種情況沒有什麼辦法來面對從B2B的狀況變成B2C的一個狀況對於這麼多500多萬在銷售這種狀況沒有辦法嗎你不是要優化你的AI優化這個報稅沒有優化退稅嗎你不是要把這個報關的部分合理化嗎那這個部分"},{"start":5037.202,"end":5037.382,"text":"主席"},{"start":5046.529,"end":5070.999,"text":"報告召委有關於這部分謝謝委員的提點那的確誠如委員說的這個快遞貨物因為它量很大但是它的金額非常小我們不能跟一般的海運貨櫃那種形態提名又再過去B2B的概念嘛對不對因為一般的公司行號人員配置多對不對它有辦法這樣相當的人力跟人才可以進行這些業務的申請"},{"start":5072.179,"end":5080.806,"text":"可是呢一般的民眾哪有辦法你一大堆方式你報稅可以減稅你通關可以減化但是你退稅就是沒有減化"},{"start":5082.708,"end":5107.139,"text":"市長,我另外也請你好好去了解一下這幾年來關於這些電商產業他因為他退貨沒有辦法退稅你預估一下多少好不好?怪不得我們的整個這個稅收會超過113%我們綜合所得稅剛剛部長你在報告的時候你的科稅收入會這麼高這恐怕也是原因之一啦"},{"start":5108.26,"end":5126.685,"text":"整個產業形態的轉變你們並沒有跟著轉變你們只有繳稅A化A化繳稅變節化但是退稅沒有變節化恐怕部長如果說你要站在這個角度來思考的話你應該把所有關於退稅的這個變節化都要一併思考而不是只有繳稅變節化部長你能不能承諾本席"},{"start":5127.598,"end":5129.499,"text":"市長請回部長我就教你一部分"},{"start":5147.33,"end":5170.329,"text":"你知道最近的這個勞工個人賬戶制在整個股票的部分每一個勞工可以增加5萬元的收入因為股市的擁擠那有許許多多的這個相對高薪的勞工原來提撥6%要加了6%所謂的這個個人賬戶制開過一個投資賬戶的方式長期持有方式在日本的部分叫NISA"},{"start":5170.749,"end":5187.529,"text":"這VISA的制度當中他們已經行之多年從2014到現在而且經過三次調整金額越來越大本席又看到今年你報告的當中你這一個那個主席我們資深委員吳秉仁這位說不要抄真我用抄收好了你抄收的113%每年抄收這麼多"},{"start":5190.112,"end":5208.012,"text":"我們能不能在整個面對超高齡化在明年超高齡化的社會來臨而且我們2050年我們的超高齡化程度可能會比日本更加嚴重而我們的社會安全體系需要一個更完整的架構特別是個人理財的部分比較缺乏的情況底下有沒有可能引起這一套制度?部長"},{"start":5210.195,"end":5233.853,"text":"謝謝委員日本為了鼓勵個人的長期投資跟資產累積他實施這個NISA而且有一段時間那2024開始新制那對於這個新制呢我們和我們國內的一個相關的一個稅制都做了一個比較比如說投資的額度資本利得的怎麼課稅鼓勵所得課稅我們做一個比較但是比較以後我們發現其實我們現行的稅制一般的稅制這個部分其實是比日本更為優化"},{"start":5234.634,"end":5235.034,"text":"與此各別的投資人"},{"start":5253.406,"end":5277.629,"text":"本期是要跟你談制度面的喔。是制度面。就是說簡單的講以個人 賬戶制的部分它適用於目前的一般的受僱者可是一般而言非是一般的受僱者當中並沒有一個長期的賬戶account在那邊放在那邊固定存款而透過類似這一種基金代鈔的一種概念變成一種定期定額的這個概念的方式而達到這個免稅的一個效果"},{"start":5279.57,"end":5288.977,"text":"目前為止只有我們6%裡頭有免稅6加6部分有免稅其他的部分的投資者當中他如果透過長期的部分有沒有辦法有這樣的優惠"},{"start":5291.618,"end":5317.797,"text":"你們之前的說法是除稅除虛的部分有免稅你們對外回答的說法是這樣子所以說你們不想要辦這個制度我想這樣子好不好那個我們第一個我們現在做一個比較當委員提供提的是制度面的也就是說我存了以後有貸鈔的基金類是貸鈔的部分我想這個部分我們是不是再來做一個進一步的研議麻煩你進一步很清楚的研議而不是呢站在一個只想要增加這個稅收的一個角度"},{"start":5318.337,"end":5341.553,"text":"不論財政部本位思考我再跟你講一下你這幾年的綜合所得稅的達成率每年都超收你看到去年為止還128%所以說這種情況底下我們是不是一定要透過這種制度我們是不是應該思考一下透過這種制度的方式來減輕人民的一個負擔而增加這個社會安全體制的一個建構"},{"start":5342.173,"end":5353.165,"text":"是,我想這個委員這個建議我們來做進一步的詳細演繹來提出那個多久時間要給本席?是不是容許我們兩個月好嗎?好,兩個月,OK好,接著那個"},{"start":5354.955,"end":5372.123,"text":"部長最近有三家公股銀行聽說要進行董事改選一個是第一銀行、兆豐還有台企銀那三位董事長都在這邊嘛董事長三位董事長能不能請一下好像是剛好這三家都是6月14號嘛"},{"start":5373.463,"end":5399.549,"text":"那是比較巧的是6月14日如果開董事會的話那個部長根據公司法192之1條董事會必須在25天前公告董事候選的資訊那財政部最晚就是等於是在520要提出人選等於是新內閣就任的時候人選都已經出來了你確定那個新內閣對一個董事的這個人選沒有一個政策上的指示或一個做一個調整嗎我不是說個別的人選"},{"start":5400.469,"end":5426.951,"text":"我了解委員這個6月14日要改選所以要提出相關的名單那我們部裡面也已經把現任的董事的名單就把它籌集以後那未來要怎麼提新的名單因為有時間的限制而且要公告嘛時間的限制我們會一定當然不能因為說520要改組就不提還是會要提的剛好就是520欸可是我要說的是如果依照公司法第170條你知道今年6月底前開股東大會就好為什麼一定要6月14號呢"},{"start":5429.332,"end":5445.106,"text":"6月14日是好像原來就定了對啊為什麼一定要6月14日呢你依照公司法你知道6月底以前就可以啦所以我意思是說你現階段而言而且依照證交署的公告你3月15日以前你都還可以變更董事會好"},{"start":5448.408,"end":5470.553,"text":"是不是要更改6月14日?你們應該思考一下在法的規定當中6月底前就可以召開你為什麼6月14日?6月14日剛好報的名單就是520就是完全沒有一個轉圜的空間你不覺得應該有一些阿索比讓新內閣當中對董事的人選是一個統一的標準的調整有一個政策上的思考轉圜的空間是不是有可能?"},{"start":5471.453,"end":5472.634,"text":"三位董事長請三位董事長上台"},{"start":5502.866,"end":5504.95,"text":"那個趙鋒你們是6月14"},{"start":5507.588,"end":5533.777,"text":"6月21然後你們提報什麼時候提報提報那個我們董事的人選可能更早是可能更早就要提報囉所以說也不一定可以依照日期你們是提早作業啦是如果推估的話也不一定要這麼早嘛對不對那這個部分是不是還有一些容許有一些調整的空間我們來檢討看看好不好檢討看看好不好那其他兩位董事長呢"},{"start":5538.055,"end":5540.537,"text":"我們的董事會也是在6月21日6月21日股東會議員也是21台慶"},{"start":5550.251,"end":5571.619,"text":"報告委員我們也是6月21日那所以說我是提早一個禮拜了那事實上還有將近10天的一個阿蘇比的空間嘛你請部長回去思考一下最後我再暫用半分鐘部長你知道那個台我們現在的CPI核心CPI的數字還是居高不下這種居高不下的情況底下我們這個黃小玉的部分有沒有可能繼續延長這個關稅上的優惠"},{"start":5573.8,"end":5600.03,"text":"現在有關的關稅、貨物稅跟營業稅有一些免徵的部分到3月底那是不是在持續延長這個行政院的穩定物價小組會做討論如果確定以後財政部就配合辦理什麼時候討論?現在3月底呢?剩下沒多久?這個日期我還沒有,手上還沒有你們趕快處理一下好不好?現在已經上旬了,快中旬了謝謝謝謝郭國文國委員下一位請李燕秀理委員質詢"},{"start":5610.333,"end":5611.258,"text":"謝謝,我是不是可以請莊部長?有請莊部長"},{"start":5618.464,"end":5642.976,"text":"委員好部長早安昨天我關注總質詢的時候陳建仁陳院長有回應說我們今年超增稅收是3617億元決定要做一些台電跟勞保健保的優先規劃要撥補這樣的規劃跟政策方向部長你到底清不清楚"},{"start":5645.566,"end":5664.616,"text":"到底有沒有討論過跟委員報告有關我們的稅收超過預算數的部分就我們財政部來說第一個就是減少舉債第二個就是增加還債其他就累積到稅基剩餘至於這個到稅基剩餘或在國庫裡面有多少錢去怎麼配置的話部長我時間不多你直接回應我到底因為昨天院長已經講了在院會已經有宣布要撥補台電勞健保"},{"start":5672.26,"end":5680.828,"text":"這個政策方向是不是真的?院裡面到底有沒有開過會?你到底知不知道?我們是籌編稅路的部分你完全不知道方向?今天已經3月7日"},{"start":5688.734,"end":5694.378,"text":"昨年我們普發現金的時候1月12日就已經決定這個超徵的稅收要怎麼花今天已經3月份了你到現在還不知道?還是說有前幾年的時候決定要普發現金我們1月份就可以知道超徵的稅收要怎麼處理"},{"start":5710.467,"end":5723.895,"text":"但那今年因為沒有選舉年到現在到底這個超生稅收明年要怎麼去處理是邊路稅入剩餘在做後續的處理還是要你完全沒有方向嗎還是要跟委員報告稅出的部分是主計總處的執掌部長我覺得因為這個我為什麼會這樣子問所以你完全也不知道說到底要撥補多少你完全沒有方向也不知道"},{"start":5739.773,"end":5768.586,"text":"那你台電要撥補多少錢?沒有討論過,你連聽都沒聽過這是行政院會在討論的,是你都沒有參與相關的會議我沒有參加部裡面沒有任何一個人參加那難道陳建仁院長在質詢台上講出來的話都沒有找過主計處財政部開過會嗎?跟委員報告主計總處的執掌至於主計總處有沒有參加那是要主計總處才知道"},{"start":5770.685,"end":5790.25,"text":"部長也就是說你完全不知道那我知道啦就選舉年的時候決定那個那個普發現金的時候才會找你們競速的跟委員報告普發現金那是整個強化社會韌性跟經濟韌性那當時有個特別條例以及特別預算的排列那今年113年的預算已經都籌編完畢了"},{"start":5791.73,"end":5812.819,"text":"今年整體上來說人民也講說這兩三年都是過去20年來經濟成果最好的時刻人民可能不這麼想今年決定要怎麼做大家都在看我為什麼這麼說因為今年下個月開始我們就要經濟部要開始開這個電價審議委員會剛剛有前一個委員郭委員有討論到我們CPI的物價指數其實已經高到1.85你知道人民CPI人"},{"start":5819.082,"end":5831.796,"text":"民眾忍受的最高的期限是多少嗎我想民眾對民眾來說物價的穩定是非常重要的那人民的忍受度最高你都不知道這個忍受度每一個人也不一樣"},{"start":5834.179,"end":5836.32,"text":"你是財政部部長欸這個數據現在是1.85人民CPI忍受的期限是2.0你知道一個電價如果按照過去大概維持電價調整10%的話你知道對於整體CPI影響大概多大嗎?"},{"start":5852.606,"end":5858.631,"text":"當然會有影響因為電價調整尤其對於所謂的部長你如果身為財政部部長對於這些重要的數據統計跟相關的預測數據你都不清楚的話如果在討論這些相關電價到底調10%、15%、20%對人民稅收還有包括剛剛在討論的負稅、關稅今年要不要持續的有優惠的減免"},{"start":5877.885,"end":5887.831,"text":"這些都是環環相控的議題你現在回答我不知道我覺得這件事情讓我不可置信你知道嗎接下來回答我時間不多我還是要問你說3月底到底要討論的電價的這個議題到底你認為撥補多少是一個合理的數據跟委員說明有關電價的調整還有審議委員會在審議那他們會根據相關的數據來做討論"},{"start":5907.703,"end":5929.339,"text":"但是撥補多少都會影響CPI的指數你同意我講這句話嗎?撥補多少第一會影響到電價審議委員會到底要調整多少對不對那這後續也會影響到CPI的指數我這個邏輯你同意嗎?同意你可以不了解這個相關的經濟預測指數但是這個是環環相扣的數據影響所以部長你要搞清楚不是520之前"},{"start":5936.804,"end":5955.214,"text":"大家都等著結束然後什麼都不管放的都不管欸部長我覺得今天你在這邊你跟我講這個是主計處的時候你不知道第一我覺得有一個可能你沒有說實話第二個大家都等著520下班什麼都放的不知道因為我覺得"},{"start":5957.511,"end":5979.651,"text":"第一決定撥補台電多少這會影響到電價審議委員會決定調整多少第二第三後面接著就會影響CPI的指數所以照你今天回答的方式我非常的不滿意因為我認為大家都不夠用心還是大家混著等著520下榜我覺得委員這樣說是不公平每一位在職的都是用心盡心盡力的在工作"},{"start":5980.091,"end":5983.692,"text":"至於我覺得這個數據跟你後續有關係我覺得你應該更主動的去了解就你今天回應我的我個人我是不滿意啦但是我覺得部長要更用心去了解到底要撥補多少因為到底健保要撥補多少"},{"start":5998.436,"end":6025.477,"text":"老闆要撥補多少台電要撥補多少因為這個後續對於CPI的預測影響台電要漲多少對於你後面CPI的影響其實也是有影響的所以我覺得這些經濟數據我覺得無分組技術你這邊其實都要精準的掌握住才對這才會拿到人民的感受度到底多少你們應該是長記在心裡部長因為我今天有第二個問題要問也非常重要部長你住在新北市對不對"},{"start":6027.252,"end":6034.48,"text":"我是好那個你有沒有朋友或你自己了不了解我們現在的包租代管"},{"start":6037.619,"end":6061.718,"text":"社會正義裏面含居住正義居住正義裏面的包租貸款是我們現在我們社宅很重要的一環因為我們不可能有那麼多的土地去蓋社宅你同意嗎包租貸款政策做得好像很重要好你知不知道賴清德跟蔡英文他們個別當時承諾的社會自主住宅到底有多少戶應該達到多少戶18年是20萬戶有自有興建賴清德要達到多少"},{"start":6066.542,"end":6068.203,"text":"現在總共多少戶?這個數據第一個就財政部來說包租代管我們全力的協助"},{"start":6081.971,"end":6085.212,"text":"臺北市包租代管的業務的戶數遠低於其他的直轄市原因在哪裡?部長你知道現在一坪在新北跟臺北租金"},{"start":6109.946,"end":6121.373,"text":"你住新北,那你知道新北的租金一坪大概是多少錢嗎?這個我沒有數據。一坪大概在新北是902塊,在台北的租金一坪是1603塊,在桃園是702塊,台南我就不再念了,我的PPT上面有。所以我們現在是一萬五千塊以下可以免所得稅、課稅的部分。"},{"start":6137.964,"end":6166.337,"text":"所以我更認為如果居住正義要更落實的更好包租代管的業務非常非常的重要所以我認為在所謂一萬五千塊免所得稅的課稅的這個政策是我覺得應該要有各縣市差異的不同你同意吧因為我剛才講的在台北市你可能一萬五你可能只可以租到九坪到十坪嘛"},{"start":6168.317,"end":6186.828,"text":"在新北你可能可以出更多但是你的包租代管業務就沒有辦法做得更好我覺得居住正義是所有政黨都在推動如何去落實無論賴清德或蔡英文的政策落實社會正義居住正義我覺得在這一件政策上"},{"start":6187.918,"end":6211.845,"text":"我覺得我們就要各縣市差異化的政策來推出來課稅每一個縣市不一樣你同意我的邏輯嗎跟委員在這裡包租貸款除了房東的每個月有15000塊的所得稅免報繳所得稅之外另外還有就是他的費用的就是裝修費用的部長也提高他的比例我只剩下15秒另外房屋稅跟地價稅也有減薪我現在在幫助"},{"start":6215.226,"end":6240.023,"text":"蔡英文跟賴清德落實居住正義我們怎麼樣把包租代管政策落實得更好所以我提出來在課稅的政策上應該要有各縣市的差異化的處理方向你同意我的說法嗎目前來說是一萬五那至於這個部分要不要做各縣市的差異化我覺得我們可以跟內政部來做討論"},{"start":6241.775,"end":6245.037,"text":"因為這個在住宅房裏面規定因為這個在住宅房裏面規定因為這個在住宅房裏面規定"},{"start":6268.232,"end":6288.061,"text":"請財政部跟內政部會後討論之後送給李委員一份資料好不好你同意這個方向我要演繹嘛好你演繹好那我就告訴你我下個禮拜我會提出相關的政策法律上的調整我也希望有機會讓你們來支持謝謝委員謝謝李燕秀委員的質詢接著我們請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":6306.194,"end":6312.715,"text":"麥克風謝謝主席我請財政部有請莊部長我今天要問你的問題其實那天你來我研究室禮貌性拜訪的時候我有跟你還有幾位署長都有提到過我認為這個上位政策"},{"start":6334.9,"end":6353.832,"text":"必須先談清楚那因為你是執行單位我當然是必須問你也就是說關於裕隆汽車那麼這兩年來他們大量進口中國籍零件拼裝而成的"},{"start":6355.928,"end":6369.134,"text":"這個MG車輛那這個MG的品牌大家都曉得它本來是歐洲英國的車輛那十幾年前這早就被中共那邊買去啦那買去了之後我先談我們裕隆啦"},{"start":6370.305,"end":6396.196,"text":"玉龍這70年來受到我們政府的保護那麼我們一直期待玉龍能夠當我們國家我們產業我們工業的龍頭帶領我們那麼能夠工業升級那至少能夠有做出好的引擎、好的車輛能帶領我們供應國人以外還能夠去外銷"},{"start":6397.932,"end":6422.233,"text":"但是讓我們覺得很難過的是這70年來玉龍的表現那我相信多數民眾都很清楚嘛那麼在政府重重的保護之下我們希望他能夠帶領我們去外銷結果他完全外銷不出去任何一部車好啦"},{"start":6423.502,"end":6449.093,"text":"七八年前開始說那要不然去賣賣賣給中國好了中國那邊的市場可能要求當時也沒那麼高那玉榮也想方設法也去了結果部長我們希望玉榮帶領我們反攻大陸結果反攻不成他現在反而幫中共來木馬屠城天吶"},{"start":6451.308,"end":6480.507,"text":"他竟然把中國零件在我們台灣來拼裝組合出來假借這個是國產車的名義大肆的幫中共的汽車來傾銷那這也是敗財政部之事你們可能背後有什麼政策啦要求你們哪後這我等一下請你說明一下"},{"start":6481.834,"end":6498.887,"text":"就是說因為你們保護裕隆那只對其他的進口車來加徵關稅、貨物稅幾十年來都這樣了我們藉由"},{"start":6500.29,"end":6517.984,"text":"加徵其他國家進口車的關稅或戶稅來保護裕隆結果裕隆這個阿斗保護了他70年我現在就要問你們了我們還要保護這個阿斗保護多久啦不是很奇怪嗎那更可怕的是什麼"},{"start":6522.915,"end":6550.543,"text":"更可怕的是什麼現在不只是MZ這個品牌我覺得這個可能中共藉由裕隆他牛刀小事試水溫投石問路看看這樣子銷售的怎麼樣能不能蒙混過我們國家我們台灣的政府跟我們台灣的消費者蒙混過了之後"},{"start":6551.892,"end":6580.646,"text":"我相信他們實隨之謂後續還有更可怕的事情要發生就是電動車現在電動車當道未來也是個趨勢這是好的那中國別的不敢說他真的電動車啊他現在在世界的產量他是獨佔凹頭啦光是這個比亞迪他佔盡市場的優勢跟便宜所以"},{"start":6581.687,"end":6592.571,"text":"我們很強烈的很畏懼就是說如果藉由裕隆引進MG中共車輛這個模式未來啊"},{"start":6596.616,"end":6620.945,"text":"大量的引進中國的電動車就是這樣中國這個電動車的零件進口然後在台灣組裝在台灣組裝說這個國產車那我們要保護我們的國產車啦所以啦這樣又一保護二保護保護到中共他們製造的車輛幫中共賺錢就對了"},{"start":6627.359,"end":6653.956,"text":"幫中共賺錢賺這個錢給我們的敵人中共去買更多的飛彈來對準台灣來威脅台灣嗎?這是很荒唐很奇怪的事情嗎?所以部長你先談一下到底我們面對我們長期以來保護的禦龍他現在大量的引進中國車的零件"},{"start":6655.237,"end":6671.027,"text":"在我們台灣組裝假借它是國產車的名義來躲避關稅或誤稅得到這樣的保護占盡了這樣的便宜以後這個模式你認為對或是不對再來那我們如果讓它繼續引進中國的電動車那怎麼辦?你的看法呢?"},{"start":6682.645,"end":6702.125,"text":"委員確實對於關稅的部分他主要還是有涉及到產業政策就是剛剛委員一直提的就是說對產業的一個避免我們國內產業受到衝擊所以有這個那至於現在我們的進口車的關稅是我們因為我們是WTO的會員所以我們在加入WTO的時候我們有做一個關稅"},{"start":6703.687,"end":6708.291,"text":"檢讓的一個承諾所以我們從入會的民國91年從稅率調為29%到10年後逐年調降到17.5%所以稅率一直維持到現在稅率一直維持到現在那至於您剛剛提到就是說這個汽車的一個關稅是不是要討論這個部分我們也"},{"start":6723.888,"end":6728.351,"text":"請教了產業的主管機關經濟部那經濟部的意見是認為進口的小汽車的關稅稅率我們相對的17.5%以及比鄰近沒有自由品牌車輛製造的一些國家來比較低了而且我們的整車零組件的製造產業的程序的一個發展是有些影響所以他們認為說目前的關稅稅率要維持我想這個部分是產業主管機關的一個意見"},{"start":6754.209,"end":6763.247,"text":"要保護裕隆這個不是另類的保護裕隆的方式嗎那如果裕隆自己生產製造我們沒話講喔"},{"start":6764.639,"end":6783.092,"text":"不是嘛!他完全大量的引進中國汽車的零件在台灣組裝所以啊部長我再正式再問你一下那我們所謂的國產車的定義啦定義是什麼現在的定義很鬆散啊"},{"start":6784.553,"end":6806.679,"text":"欸零件沒關係哪邊來的不管就是在台灣組裝就叫做國產車欸那這個這個定義太鬆散不打起這個圖利了裕隆不是這樣嗎那現在圖利裕隆他大量的引進中國製的車子等於也圖利了中共欸還有這個未來這個電動車電動車非比油車欸"},{"start":6813.571,"end":6840.371,"text":"電動車有投資的問題他車輛鏡頭收集的投資部長我們國家為什麼禁止向中共採購無人機這就是為了國家安全不是嗎同樣啊如果裕隆以AMG這個品牌的模式再大量的引進中國電動車類似比方說BRD好幾個品牌啦"},{"start":6841.873,"end":6855.476,"text":"然後他們的電動車進來這暴露了我們國家的徒資這涉及國家安全問題而且還傷腦筋的嘿!現在比亞迪最大的死敵是誰?"},{"start":6856.98,"end":6879.895,"text":"當然就是自由世界這些我們自由世界製造的電動車啊不是嗎?結果我們高關稅高貨物稅對進口自由世界國家我們這些友邦的車啊用這些把他擋住品質好的友邦的車擋住然後我們對於裕隆的保護讓他來引進我們的敵人中共他們的車輛"},{"start":6881.832,"end":6898.004,"text":"這不是荒唐嗎這是另類的經濟的國安危機所以我在這邊預言如果部長你如果沒有守住這條底線你如果不跟經濟部行政院把這件事情談清楚的話我認為這會是21世紀科技版的木馬圖層記發生了就在我們台灣上演了這還了得"},{"start":6911.089,"end":6933.275,"text":"委員第一個零組件進口也是要課徵關稅至於剛剛委員另外就大陸汽車的電動車並沒有在經濟部的貿易局並沒有開放進口那您剛剛的意見我們會跟轉給經濟部然後一起來研議好不好來關注這個事情好不好然後那個主席我最後強調一點然後假使我剛剛說的那個情況真的發生的話中國電動車大肆進取來台灣的話那"},{"start":6940.12,"end":6941.241,"text":"謝謝王世堅委員的質詢接著我們請王鴻薇委員質詢"},{"start":6980.421,"end":6984.885,"text":"這幾天在立法院裡面除了金夏之間的爭議之外金夏海域爭議還有淘機的糾紛之外"},{"start":7004.463,"end":7018.915,"text":"另外就是現在經濟委員會就有關於電價的部分所以現在大家最關心的電價是不是會帶來了一個物價上漲的壓力剛才李燕秀委員也特別提到"},{"start":7019.736,"end":7022.337,"text":"昨天國發會來報告特別提到就是當時我們為了要穩定物價所以我們從110年的年底開始我們針對了好多項的關鍵的原物料進口包含不管是關稅也好貨物稅也好有做減免我看我們的關務署的署長已經在旁邊"},{"start":7046.627,"end":7050.257,"text":"這個時間是只有到今年的3月31日,就這個月底而已"},{"start":7053.288,"end":7079.878,"text":"大家都知道以今年來說我們這個消費物價上漲超過2%幾乎已成定局因為電價要調超過10%那個對於物價推升推波助瀾的威力是非常大的所以我想請問一下我們關鍵原物料的進口減稅會不會繼續的延續因為只有到這個月月底而已是不是應該要繼續延續請回答"},{"start":7082.919,"end":7102.741,"text":"是,跟委員報告這個機動降稅的部分是到這個月底然後行政院有一個穩定物價小組會就物價的這個情況來做討論那如果是要繼續延長的話那財政部就配合辦理會不會延長這個要等到那個行政院的穩定物價小組討論"},{"start":7104.141,"end":7125.608,"text":"好,我在這邊因為我今天質詢我做做具體的建議和要求我認為要繼續延長而且你們時間應該要早一點講因為已經到這個月月底老師說啦我覺得現在整個的行政院因為在看守內閣因為很多人在搶位子不曉得現在在幹什麼"},{"start":7127.249,"end":7137.538,"text":"對於物價問題你看這個到3月底到現在還沒有討論待會我還會去那個未還那個未服部真的是非常混蛋你知道嗎"},{"start":7138.976,"end":7162.068,"text":"在現在物價大家壓力這麼大的狀況之下還要取消這個掛號費的上限現在怎麼樣要逼死大家是不是所以我在這邊因為那個不關你財政部的事情那我要求關鍵原物料進口以這個減稅應該要延續這段時間正好是關鍵的時候如果配合電價的上漲配合掛號費的上漲"},{"start":7164.309,"end":7188.637,"text":"然後整個的物價蠢蠢欲動一旦勾起整個大家競相上漲那個壓力是非常非常大的是好不好委員這一點我們一定會轉達好那個那個署長你可以先回去好接著齁時間暫停一下我應該走應該還是還是那個部長齁國庫署國庫署署長"},{"start":7202.878,"end":7227.989,"text":"部長你上次有來拜訪我我告訴你我為什麼要進財委會就是我在去年補選擔任立法委員之後我接到很多的投訴是來自於我們的公股事業在我們的公股監控公司我接到最多的投訴就是核庫監控旗下的這個相關的這些機構"},{"start":7229.568,"end":7250.521,"text":"我在最早曾經踢爆核酷AMC案我講過一個董事長把他的什麼侄子啦事業夥伴女兒啊條阿咖阿小三全部都弄進去當然最後呢就全部都走人我想部長非常清楚然後接下來"},{"start":7251.653,"end":7269.363,"text":"我又提報合庫投信他有違反公司治理這個董事長林柏鈺還有當時行銷長有涉嫌違法接受國外基金公司的招待到東京根本不符合相關的規定"},{"start":7270.629,"end":7293.115,"text":"而且相關的人士世上是不停的投訴從核庫的總公司到金管會沒人問問每一次都說沒問題每一次都說沒問題在前兩天金管會主委在這邊他非常清楚的答覆我他們認為有問題因為他們去做專案精簡那麼對於核庫投信他們認為確實有違規的問題"},{"start":7295.896,"end":7323.975,"text":"然後甚至合庫金控我知道今天金控董事長也在這邊合庫金控的集合也有問題同樣一批人查了又查查了又查都說沒有問題廢話如果你要包庇的話你查100次都是沒有問題啊但是一直到金管會去精檢之後發現有問題所以不但合庫投信你要提出報告連合庫金控"},{"start":7324.858,"end":7346.596,"text":"的經檢董事長、總經理你們也可以在這邊聽好怎麼會一個核庫金空會這樣子的濫法呢這個還是我提出來的沒有辦法提出來的還不曉得有多少所以以下這是我的重點來"},{"start":7349.858,"end":7372.173,"text":"在去年我們在審預算的時候我就要求就是說我們這個我們監控過去公股銀行大家都視為金飯碗我知道現場很多都是過去考進去的金飯碗,考進去就金飯碗那其實這個考試呢其實也很激烈"},{"start":7373.598,"end":7401.547,"text":"可是呢我們現在公股機構下面銀行的部分做公開招考比較公開跟透明但是剩下來其他的子公司因為後來才開始衍生的嘛子公司就開始隨便了沒有做任何的公開招考裡面我甚至還被抓出來連筆試沒有筆試啦連考試都沒有經過然後就直接任用了甚至我還聽說"},{"start":7403.571,"end":7429.796,"text":"兩家公司過去我們有一子而食一子而教現在還有什麼呢一子而用我讓大家知道有人在那邊偷笑很清楚啦比如說部長你有小孩我有小孩我用我的小孩進來不好看所以你小孩給我用我的小孩給你用他用這種方式很丟臉很難看"},{"start":7431.181,"end":7455.447,"text":"下面基層怨聲載道今天這麼多的董事長、總經理我若要規劃讓你們全部在後面排排站所以我要從制度上要求我們財政部做制度上的改變所以我上次在組結議的時候就說既然金控你的銀行要做公開招考請問你其他子公司為什麼不要"},{"start":7456.874,"end":7483.977,"text":"其他職公司為什麼不要所以才會有這種任用私人甚至呢一窩子都是你同一個派系一個董事長小三都可以進來耶小三護士來可以進來當副理像樣嗎怎麼會淪落至此所以我在這邊具體的要求我現在財委會這一年我就是要推動這個事情金控下面各位董事長、總經理聽好了"},{"start":7485.905,"end":7501.135,"text":"金控下面銀行公開招考以招公信其他的子公司也應該公開招考以招公信我告訴你裡面的人銀行的人看不起其他子公司的人"},{"start":7502.423,"end":7523.332,"text":"因為人家說我是憑實力進來的啊啊你是憑什麼搞不好是有的人可能是憑實力啊很多人是憑實力啊但有一些是憑關心進來的你為什麼搞成這樣呢我們要讓建立一套制度這個制度不要再發生這樣子的醜聞太難看了可不可以"},{"start":7523.677,"end":7527.219,"text":"對委員的部分我很認同我想委員也知道上次有關核庫的AMC還有投信的事財政部立場就是誠實面對嚴正的處理第一個我們把相關的缺失我們並不隱瞞全部查出來而且要求改善"},{"start":7540.126,"end":7561.379,"text":"那除了這個部分之外而且不是只有這個公司而且其他的全部的公股行庫都要有做制度性的改善那委員特別提到有關用人的部分我跟委員特別說明我們要求各所有的金控或者是銀行下面不管指公司也好他都要用公開公正透明的方式來選用然後用甄選然後你對一個職"},{"start":7565.802,"end":7594.18,"text":"各職級的他要用的經歷學歷都要把標準定出來這個部分都有要求而且做全面性的制度的一個要求所以這個部分委員提的都已經在做了我保證你不用數集記網我這個人不會追殺到底因為現在也有那個非常那個什麼沾沾津津的本分的你未來你用公開招考的部分第一個你的人員的數值提高第二個你防度這些弊端和樂不為"},{"start":7595.04,"end":7598.324,"text":"我請台灣煙酒公司董事長、總經理有請丁董事長跟林總經理"},{"start":7624.26,"end":7643.256,"text":"董事長、總經理 我用快速的你們也很清楚知道我要問什麼就是你們建國啤酒廠改建的部分因為在行政院副院長鄭文燦副院長的主導下你們把原來已經經過從內政部到台北市都審會全部通過的這個"},{"start":7645.838,"end":7662.035,"text":"議案撤回重新來做開發那然後呢把一塊地呢割給了北科大對不對那這個呢引起我們地方的居民周圍居民強烈反彈他們今天下午還在繼續做說明會"},{"start":7663.997,"end":7692.909,"text":"包括文資團體包括員工工會強力反彈我只有跟教育部長說北科大不能做惡靈居不好看但這件事情我知道台九是聽命行事但是我要讓董事長、總經理知道這個案子在地方上極為強烈反彈而且反而會拖延甚至影響你們的改建所以我認為你們還是要好好的處理"},{"start":7693.809,"end":7694.49,"text":"謝謝黃宏威委員的質詢接著我們請賴惠元委員質詢"},{"start":7722.948,"end":7736.423,"text":"謝謝主席我們請部長有請中央部長還有國庫署署長國庫署署長第一金礦第一金礦董事長造風金礦有被點名到請大家主動上來部長早安"},{"start":7743.117,"end":7766.307,"text":"部長我想這個延續在禮拜一就是我們的租賃公司的這個議題那我請教就是部長就是8家的公股、行庫借了租賃業多少錢你有掌握嗎跟委員報告到2月底8家公股、行庫對於融資公司的租賃公司貸款餘額總共是1246億"},{"start":7768.568,"end":7784.198,"text":"一千兩百四十六億那我的資料是一千兩百六十八億那總反正因為總資就是一千兩百多億對不對那這八家公股銀行行庫代給融資公司我們知道他們做了什麼嗎"},{"start":7785.697,"end":7802.325,"text":"我們可以看到了就是說這個貸款的餘額我們把它統計了出來那請問國庫署對於融資的一個主任公司拿了這些一千多億的錢做了什麼有沒有辦法還款你是不是有掌握呢"},{"start":7804.383,"end":7824.623,"text":"根委員報告因為對於銀行在放貸給融資公司的時候他們都會做好落實他們的貸貸後管理所以除了差別借款人貸款資金的實力用途以外也會防止銀行那個資金流入所以就是說基本上他們都是有符合到我們金融業的ESG的一個標準嗎是啊"},{"start":7825.865,"end":7837.899,"text":"這個他們會去檢視沒有錯嘛 對不對所以就是說我們基本上就是說所有就是ESG的一個標準我們銀行的授信以前我們必須要嚴格的去審查"},{"start":7838.953,"end":7865.052,"text":"好,部長,嚴格的去審查在這裡頭我們從這個低金控公告的ESG裡頭有特別特別的強調就是說在授信前的一個那個審查的一個機制的一個流程圖裡頭特別強調公司內控的一個負面的一個議題還有是不是乘坐高爭議性的一個產業我們都要納入風險的評估"},{"start":7866.814,"end":7869.647,"text":"是的是的那個第一金控董事長 對不對"},{"start":7871.784,"end":7900.198,"text":"這是你們自己做的?是,回答委員是的沒有問題?是好那還是一樣再請教部長跟署長目前就是八大公股銀行行庫裡頭是不是都採用相同或是相近標準的做授信前的一個審查?所有公股行庫在授信前都有一定的審查而且它必須符合金管會以及銀行公會所有的授信審查原則都要符合的是,部長"},{"start":7900.97,"end":7912.287,"text":"我跟你講你只要打開你的手機用一個關鍵字只要一個貸款的貸那你全部跳出來的是什麼一台摩托車可以"},{"start":7913.803,"end":7942.28,"text":"借30萬輕輕鬆鬆不用財力證明然後一台超過15年的汽車可以借到80萬你試著操作看看就是業者在換款的額度的一個輕鬆給這些學生然後給這些沒有資產能力比較下階層的這些人那是不是就是禁止乘坐高正義性這個是不是高正義性的產業"},{"start":7944.45,"end":7969.292,"text":"委員是基於保護年輕人他有時候就因為覺得便利就去貸款結果讓自己身上背了一堆債然後造成自己的信用整個就不好了對他人生未來是有影響那這個部分我們在貸出去的時候是給企業戶那至於這個企業戶您可能關心的是企業戶貸到以後錢拿去做什麼用八大公股銀行他們借出去的錢你們做了什麼"},{"start":7970.453,"end":7990.942,"text":"你們說你們都有監控結果租賃公司是從銀行搬了錢然後再做地下錢莊的工作那我們為什麼不管呢為什麼不管我想這個部分讓我們各個銀行在貸款出去以後對的資金用途都會有做貸後管理"},{"start":7992.827,"end":8010.717,"text":"那事實上顯現出來在下一頁部長我再讓你看目前的在這個整個租賃業裡頭的龍頭的話就是我們中租中租的一個財報來看的話我們中租2023年12月底在我們台灣的債權研製力高達2.3"},{"start":8012.498,"end":8020.649,"text":"那這樣換算的話他總金額是90億相較之下的銀行去年12月底的預放率他僅0.1%這個超過23%你怎麼解釋呢?"},{"start":8026.325,"end":8054.521,"text":"跟委員報告那金管會我們跟金管會瞭解他也會將來會約他也會約已經約談了中租、合潤跟裕隆三家租賃業者那麼我們會進一步的會去了解銀行跟這些租賃業者的風險管理那這些公管銀行那個這些公股銀行是歸你管的然後這些人這些銀行提供了錢給租賃公司然後去做這麼多事情那"},{"start":8058.924,"end":8076.838,"text":"委員提出這個問題也是非常重要我們接下來會請我們公股、航空對這些租賃公司的一個融資貸款去全盤了解它的一個資金用途部長,你所有的回答其實基本上都是非常空的土地銀行在下一頁"},{"start":8078.356,"end":8102.14,"text":"土地銀行在2024年統籌就是你們租給那個中租的一個年代案有沒有將中租抵合放高利貸及高顏值的一個顏值利納入風險的評估呢我想這個個案是不是可以由土地銀行來做說明的個案我剛就有請土地銀行要出列了"},{"start":8108.396,"end":8133.531,"text":"所以喔土地銀行你在這裏去年的11頁你統籌主辦了中租抵合三年期那就是貸給他71億那你們講了說支持歷電產業可是你這裏頭連帶的還有兆豐還有和庫還有華蘭對不對是那你有沒有去追蹤呢報告委員這些錢是真的放在歷電產業還是"},{"start":8135.948,"end":8149.524,"text":"送到中國大陸去了報告委員我們當初籌組這筆聯貸案它的主要資金用途去它是去建立這個太陽能的電廠所以是完全符合綠色綠電的一個產業你有追嗎當然是這是貸貨管理最重要的一部分"},{"start":8154.229,"end":8177.981,"text":"是,好,那這樣子我跟你講甚至我在土銀我下一次再請教你所有你借出去的錢你借給租賃公司的錢它是不是有到中國去這個也是要再跟你特別再做一個我們再做一個探討所以在這裡我要跟所有在現場的我們所有的這個相關在金融的一個機構裡頭"},{"start":8179.963,"end":8196.881,"text":"一、S、G這個S就是社會責任我們是不是有幫世界人小民就是在擋呢他們背著一個高利貸一台摩托車可以借到30萬一個學生他在他需要買手機他需要買"},{"start":8198.41,"end":8225.499,"text":"好的包包他需要怎麼樣怎麼樣的時候然後他輕易的借到了這些錢然後他的銀行的信用就是變成是這樣的一個負債永遠還不完這個ESG我們有沒有盡到這個社會責任啊顯然就是說在每一個每一個領域裡頭你們全部都講說那個推來推去推來推去那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":8226.899,"end":8251.946,"text":"這個租賃公司越來越大尾他也可以是當鋪也可以是銀行那從銀行搬錢了那你們在這個錢授權給他的時候你們也非常的慷慨那他輕鬆的在公股銀行搬到錢了然後就做這些高利貸的工作那怎麼辦啊無法可管"},{"start":8255.387,"end":8284.8,"text":"部長回答我是謝謝委員的提示我想這個部分代後的管理非常重要也就是資金的流向我們銀行有時候會專款專用對成立一個專戶做一定的資金用途那這個要至於您剛剛提到就是說租賃公司有沒有把這個錢拿去以後去放高利貸讓許多年輕人不小心就是帶了錢然後造成他一輩子的信用上的一些影響我想我們這個部分會請公股航空特別注意然後對代後管理資金流向都要有所進一步的理解"},{"start":8285.06,"end":8285.08,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":8315.881,"end":8342.96,"text":"我想就是說最後一頁這個部長我想這樣子建議就是說你要檢討公股行庫ESG的一個認定標準那將專業對民眾的一個換款的利率還有就是換款的標準還有顏值利等納入授信的標準以外你千萬千萬不能讓公股銀行成為合法高利貸的一個幫兇顯然你們現在就是幫兇了而你們不自覺"},{"start":8343.78,"end":8364.641,"text":"你們還一直一而再再而三的一直在協助他們公股行庫若是發現以放貸的租賃業從事對學生的放高利貸的一個行為的時候你們是不是可以依契約收回貸款的款項有沒有辦法還有日漸升溫的中國經濟泡沫的一個問題"},{"start":8365.842,"end":8383.626,"text":"公股行戶除了減少在中國的曝險機制以外是不是應該嚴格的追蹤就是我們所有換款的對象是不是有轉投資到中國希望一個業內給我這樣子的一個素面報告謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝大會委員的質詢待我們顏寬文委員質詢之後呢我們休息10分鐘接著我們請顏寬文委員質詢"},{"start":8404.896,"end":8411.341,"text":"主席各位委員同仁主席我想請財政部長有請莊部長委員好部長"},{"start":8420.783,"end":8440.129,"text":"企業紓困貸款分為振興資金貸款、營運資金貸款就有貸款展延我贊成這些政策對於許多企業度過疫情期間的一些幫助營運資金貸款可以暫時解決員工"},{"start":8442.778,"end":8463.402,"text":"新資以及廠房的一些租金的燃眉之急正新資金貸款能夠幫助受影響企業所需要之周轉性的支出資本性的支出然而營運資金貸款含寬限期僅有3年正新資金貸款含寬限期僅有5年以營運資金貸款為例110年開始貸款的企業必須在今年113年必須要還款"},{"start":8470.205,"end":8496.577,"text":"那112年疫情才逐漸解封等於復甦那等於是說112年開始貸款的中小企業今年他就必須要把他的貸款還清那他所剩下一年的時間這樣子的一個貸款期限是不是對才剛走出疫情的這樣子的一個企業衝擊太大那可不可以請部長先回答"},{"start":8498.154,"end":8515.587,"text":"跟委員報告確實為了要讓企業能夠紓困貸款這個期限目前是延長到113年12月31號那這個部分政府是基於讓他們可以走度過難關所以透過這樣的一個方式讓他們可以鬆一口氣這樣延緩對"},{"start":8519.448,"end":8542.43,"text":"我要跟部長說就是因為像我手上這個部分剛剛過來的時候就在我研究室過來這一邊那就接受了這個業者的陳情那現在變成說因為還款的期限這麼短那許多業者其實在疫情期間他就是咬牙苦撐能夠損益平衡已經是"},{"start":8543.231,"end":8565.319,"text":"非常萬幸了那現在還不容易開始復甦但是時間這麼短所以說已經是挖東搶補西搶先去跟別人借貸來還清要想辦法先跟別人借貸來還清這樣子的一個貸款所以這個部分我想這是目前發生的這是目前正在發生的這是一個非常嚴肅的議題"},{"start":8566.92,"end":8588.966,"text":"那我想希望說有立即的改善的方案這個貸款含寬限期是否可否延長作為通安性的問題來做處理大家都不希望說會再碰到一個大規模的經濟衰退的狀況發生必須要站在百姓跟業者的立場來鑿定政策可不可以"},{"start":8589.52,"end":8609.231,"text":"好 謝謝委員這個部分也跟委員再做一個補充就是說原來是到100今年的年底那如果說他還是有需要展延的話就是要展延腳本金還可以再延長6個月那如果還有這有相關的困難的話我們的公股行庫呢其實持續有下面的一個包含"},{"start":8610.131,"end":8635.065,"text":"協議的償還機制就是企業原來的借款還有續月斬金或分期貪還的需求的話可以和原來的銀行再做一個協議就是個案的協議那另外呢經濟部他也有一個協商的機制那可以協助有營運困難的企業然後紓解他金融機構還款的壓力那防止資金周轉不靈影響到的持續性我想這個部分政府也非常重視那提出相關的機制這樣子跟委員做報告"},{"start":8637.049,"end":8659.839,"text":"再請問消費者物價指數CPI一般定義超過3%就是通貨膨脹那超過5%就是比較嚴重的通貨膨脹根據112年主計總署公布的消費者CPI指數較前次中所稅免稅額扣除這個調整的累計幅度達5.5%"},{"start":8664.742,"end":8673.353,"text":"遠超過調整基準的3%那預計今年度的中手稅免稅額將調升5000至9.7萬元標準扣除額將調升7000至13.1萬元"},{"start":8679.074,"end":8694.199,"text":"我想在這個物價飛漲的年代那減輕人民的付稅是非常必要要做的近兩次調整的時間上上次調整年度是106年111年度適用之平均CPI指數與106年適用之指數相較"},{"start":8699.389,"end":8726.898,"text":"上漲了4.17%再來是本次的113年度那平均CPI指數與111年度適用值指數相較上漲5.5%近兩次的調整累積幅度都超過所得稅法所規定的3%那部長請說明那在這個這樣子的情況要怎麼樣去做改善怎麼樣去做制定跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":8727.978,"end":8742.722,"text":"我們的綜合所得稅裡面的免稅額跟標準扣除額還有薪資所得特別扣除額這些都會隨著物價指數長到某一個時候就必須要做調整所以在我們去年底的時候已經公告了在113年適用的免稅額、標準扣除額以及相關的扣除額一個調整數據都有做調整"},{"start":8748.823,"end":8773.966,"text":"那個會在明年的5月報稅的時候就可以納入那今年呢我們還調高了基本生活費這個基本生活費如果調高的話你的相關扣除額沒有達到這個基本扣除額的基本生活費的話都還可以要到比較高的數據來做扣除所以這個部分對於物價指數的一個調升我們必須要去減輕民眾在出稅上的一個負擔所以我們按照所得稅法的規定都有在做調整"},{"start":8775.553,"end":8799.055,"text":"要減輕租稅的負擔所以我們就是說物價的波動是每小時每天在進行的但是我們免稅的核算是你年度去計算的所以說不論是烏鴉戰爭、以巴衝突還是接下來4月份的電價上漲這些東西都是會帶動CPI指數的一個重要的關係那所以我想"},{"start":8799.877,"end":8807.914,"text":"請財政部在這部分研擬新的方案讓免稅額能夠在最即時的狀況即時的狀況來每年檢討"},{"start":8810.188,"end":8817.251,"text":"因為稅法裡面是有規定要累計達到3%的時候可以做調整這個部分是稅法裡面對,超過了就調所以已經調了那另外跟委員報告為了穩定物價那這個部分在穩定物價小組裡面我們從兩年前就已經對於這個大宗物資的進口像黃豆小玉的進口營業進口的"},{"start":8834.999,"end":8835.98,"text":"關稅、貨物稅這部分每個家庭息息相關的這個"},{"start":8863.114,"end":8867.355,"text":"我們車價的組成包括關稅、貨物稅、營業稅以最近的中國中國大陸整車進口關稅15%南韓8%全球汽車龍頭的日本它關稅零至之美國也僅僅只有2.5%但是台灣要17.5%"},{"start":8893.392,"end":8911.506,"text":"我們的整車關稅是早期政府為了要扶植本土汽車產業要保護本土產業所設下的一個高昂進口關稅但是從2002年加入世貿組織然後一直到2010年調降到現在17.5%17.5%那另外以汽車零件關稅的部分"},{"start":8920.578,"end":8932.303,"text":"要使國產車能夠提高國產車的自製比例而課稅但是如果國產車國產製造商沒有辦法使用國產零件必須要從國外進口然後再來組裝一樣會被課到10%至17.5%的不同的關稅"},{"start":8936.738,"end":8953.485,"text":"那想要請教部長在關稅保護的立場上這個稅率已經不合時宜而且對我國要加入CPTPP這樣的國際組織也會造成阻礙所以對於這個關稅的部分本席認為應該要調整而且要大幅度的調整部長你的看法"},{"start":8955.217,"end":8978.547,"text":"委員非常清楚關稅的一個調整的歷史從加入WTO我們做關稅減讓到現在17.5%一直維持當然關稅的政策除了我們的稅收之外還涉及到產業的政策剛剛委員所提到的幾個國家的關稅非常低甚至是零基本上他們都是自己是製造車的自由品牌的國家"},{"start":8979.147,"end":8982.289,"text":"所以這個部分他們的關稅很低那我們的涉及到產業政策的部分我們也去徵詢過經濟部的意見那經濟部是認為說以我們這個17.5來看的話比鄰近國家他沒有自由品牌車輛的製造的國家來已經來的算的比較低的那如果我們再降低的話可能會衝擊到"},{"start":8999.679,"end":9013.268,"text":"我們整車還有整車零組件的一個製造產業的一個發展永續所以認為是要維持那當然委員您知道就是說如果我們自發性的把它調降那對所以我們必須要適用所有WTO會員國都要讓他們關稅調降那這樣的話是不是對我們國內有相關的衝擊這都要審慎的評估"},{"start":9020.575,"end":9033.829,"text":"我這邊做一個比較那以如果以一台100萬的定價為100萬的進口車那以我國零件製造作為成本計算在加付所有的稅負之後進口車會高達154到160萬那如果說國產車的售價會在131到135萬所以"},{"start":9043.439,"end":9059.379,"text":"以原定價同樣100萬的來做一個比較買一台進口車需要比國產車的稅務增加24萬左右但是又以另外一個來做一個比較以現在市場上賣的最夯的那個TOYOTA的RAV4來比較"},{"start":9060.933,"end":9078.347,"text":"我太太跟女兒都開這種車啦那在美國的報價是2.9萬美金到3.9萬那在日本的話是大概85萬台幣390萬日元那在台灣的話大概是100萬到137萬那以國產車那字節75萬到110萬來做一個比較雖然比進口車便宜但是它等於是可以買到進口車的中階或中高階的車型"},{"start":9090.356,"end":9109.018,"text":"所以大家就是會多數會選擇購買進口車所以現在台灣的進口車的比例還是超過一半以上所以我想再請部長說要跟部長希望說財政部能夠在這個問題來做一個深切的思考來做一個調整這會是一個得證好不好"},{"start":9111.57,"end":9117.873,"text":"謝謝委員,我們可以把相關的資料提供委員做一個參考。謝謝。好,謝謝顏匡恩委員的質詢。那我們現在休息10分鐘。謝謝。"},{"start":9152.005,"end":9181.817,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":9182.541,"end":9199.326,"text":"財政委員會第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期"},{"start":9220.947,"end":9246.732,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":9251.061,"end":9251.722,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9286.783,"end":9286.923,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9421.747,"end":9422.088,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9447.984,"end":9448.265,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9491.463,"end":9491.723,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9550.219,"end":9558.375,"text":"好啊!好啊!好啊!好啊!多年啊!多年啊!哎呀!哎呀!好!好!好!感謝!好!好!過幾年了!好!過幾年了!好!謝謝!"},{"start":9593.679,"end":9594.342,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9669.806,"end":9670.006,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9721.194,"end":9723.455,"text":"好 我們繼續開會"},{"start":9759.463,"end":9769.293,"text":"接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢請公股銀行各位董事長趕快回座"},{"start":9775.472,"end":9778.675,"text":"好的謝謝我請莊部長有請莊部長委員好是部長我想我們在總質詢的時候我提出幾個問題當然跟財政部有很大的關係第一個當然是所謂的稅制改革包括當天我所提出印花稅、娛樂稅、貨物稅那我最關心的大家也是你知道的"},{"start":9802.847,"end":9823.368,"text":"碳稅這個定價機制當天院長承諾說會針對這個部分提出相關的研議那我想知道目前這個部分你大概什麼時候會給本席一個完整的相關的規劃報告跟委員報告對委員關心的稅制改革我們都很佩服那有關這個"},{"start":9824.737,"end":9852.972,"text":"綠色也就是說碳稅的部分那天也提過就是碳費先行是那後面碳稅那委員也特別提到就是說我們現在我們不能以後再研議應該現在就要研議那這個部分特別跟委員報告我們也一直在收集這個有關國際間對於能源稅課徵能源稅跟碳稅的國際資料所以我需要的是時間對另外我們也委託了台北大學進行一個就是說碳稅接碳費"},{"start":9853.872,"end":9881.851,"text":"然後檢討貨物稅制的一個可行性的研究那這個研究呢預估會在今年的11月30會完成我相信這個研究可以對我們提出很具體的建議你現在在做的事情給我一個時間表我只要你的時間表內容的東西我都知道你們在做些什麼是所以我需要的是什麼時候可以提出這個報告給我第二個就是有關碳稅目前為止去年環境部有答應一個月提出來但是用了200個字那我不知道你的報告會不會只有100個字"},{"start":9883.331,"end":9910.425,"text":"那我是不是這樣子好不好因為這個可行性研究的報告會在11月30完成如果委員需要一個比較完整的話可能要到年底那您如果要知道我們現在在做什麼我們可以把現在的進行的情形跟您做探稅跟探費的過渡期我們沒有時間在等所以第一個你年底要出來如果按照這個時程的確是有點慢了但是我還是認為說稅是國家的工具之一"},{"start":9911.305,"end":9935.574,"text":"碳費、碳稅那是當然跟環境有關但是如果可能在這之前我們有很多的稅制上面是可以同步來做一些相關的規劃可能會更好一點部長我希望在年底的時候會有完整的計劃但是我希望你一個月出來至少把相關的時程表時間表不會是3年5年才會完成碳稅的規範不會吧"},{"start":9938.123,"end":9959.452,"text":"碳稅今年課徵今年才開始明年課徵這個部分環境部也正在做相關的細節的一些我同意財政部雖然不是氣候變遷的主責機關但是我認為碳稅本身就是一種工具像我們在產創條例的部分我們可以用稅額扣抵來引導產業轉型同樣的產創條例對於目前碳減碳"},{"start":9964.847,"end":9990.266,"text":"也成為所謂的減稅的項目之一就好比居住正義用房屋稅各種稅制來協助居住正義的完成也就是說稅在你的手上你可以協助各機關達到他的政策目標的效益會比其他各機關自己在申收他相關的碳費也好會來得更有效你同意嗎我想租稅確實也是一個政策功績所以"},{"start":9991.067,"end":10012.002,"text":"今天第一個就是時間我希望一個月之內給我一個完整的你的時程表不管你要做什麼請把時程表給我我們把我們想要我們要做的事情可以把跟相關的時程提給委員第二個就我剛剛講當稅制成為你的工具之一在企業檢探的活動裡面這些所謂的投資"},{"start":10013.183,"end":10014.564,"text":"委員會提供的方式。我的意思就是說"},{"start":10032.679,"end":10050.545,"text":"激凌碳排、氣候邊遷不會只是環境部的工作財政部作為稅制的主管機關它應該有相當的武器相當的工具可以來協助更多的企業在產業轉型上面在激凌碳排上面而不是只是單純等環境部提出需求"},{"start":10051.225,"end":10076.777,"text":"這件事情我相信部長以你的遠見應該可以往這個方向去做規劃另外慘狀條例的部分經濟部也正在考慮就是把這一部分引進去然後把有關投資抵減把它放進去我們也會一起參與那我想這個部分都是同樣的東西這個也納進來在你的未來稅制改革在氣候變遷跟企業抵減上面應該"},{"start":10077.657,"end":10103.609,"text":"有一個整套有一個只有環境部一個人在講這個部分麻煩也是是不是兩個禮拜之內也可以給我一個跟這個企業減稅、投資、抵減的部分有一個相關的規劃我們因為是產創條例是經濟部主政我們可以跟他聯繫以後看有什麼資料可以提供給委員我的意思是說財政部在金鈴碳排的路徑上"},{"start":10104.429,"end":10130.006,"text":"你可能要更主動一點你用你的稅制的工具可以協助各機關他們在這條道路上面成為一個因為你的稅制的幫助他的推動業務會更方便這第一個第二個就是今天有很多的公股航空都在現場我想部長我們現在在全世界的相關的比較裡面我們的"},{"start":10131.397,"end":10140.406,"text":"台灣的銀行目前為止目前有一個原則是金融控股公司的資產越大它是不是競爭力越強"},{"start":10142.548,"end":10163.297,"text":"當然目前來說國際間確實有大手很大沒錯而且目前為止我們中華徵信所好像提出過臺灣的金控只需要9家然後呢我們現在所有的銀行都沒有辦法排到全球前百大主要是因為我們資產狀況"},{"start":10165.461,"end":10190.379,"text":"超過10兆的只有兩家只有富邦跟國泰那現在我們的公營行庫最好的最大的大概就是台銀但是現在台灣公股銀行的資產市佔率跟民營的銀行民營的金控差很多對吧所以國庫署是所以我們現在的公營的金控"},{"start":10191.923,"end":10195.416,"text":"我們有14間獲利前三名的都是謎"},{"start":10196.889,"end":10223.026,"text":"也就是說公股銀行裡面表現最好是兆豐但是他的成績只有富邦的一半部長如果照這樣的情況下我們的公銀行庫不要說國際競爭了我們現在連國內競爭好像都已經輸了你有什麼樣的看法有什麼樣的解方跟委員報告這有關獲利的部分我們也一直在督促我們的公股行庫能夠做努力所以不管是"},{"start":10223.886,"end":10250.436,"text":"金控的雙引擎還有銀行的雙翅膀都希望他們在現有的一個強項裡面能夠再拓展另外一個強項然後提高獲利但是我們也不可否認的我們的公股行庫也擔負著相關的國家政策的一些任務比如說其他代管所以公營行庫有不同的面向有不同的政策責任但是同樣它還是必須要爭取到更多的獲利跟相關的市占率那現在我們輸給民間的金控"},{"start":10252.777,"end":10272.418,"text":"然後我們又不斷地推動民間的監控並監控所以富邦併了日盛那我們的公營行庫就會可能又他就更大那我們的競爭力又會更弱這種狀況有沒有考慮過或者是說讓我們的公營行庫他有聯盟、連線"},{"start":10275.39,"end":10288.335,"text":"各自不同的長處去做配搭甚至在保障員工權益的情況下考慮公共合併呢?是委員說得很好就是因為其實公股、行戶他們各有不同的強項那跟他們長久以來的一個歷史跟一些專業的投注有關係可以做聯盟、公共合併的方向那至於公股"},{"start":10299.639,"end":10317.41,"text":"公共合併的部分我們認為這個就是要看雙方的一些企業文化經營策略還有優勢的復補及市場定位員工的安置以及據點的採摘等等要從各個面向來討論不管怎麼樣但是都必須要公開透明而且要符合市場的機制我想這個方向是要確定的從國內競爭的角度國際競爭的角度我們的公營的行庫還有公營的這個監控我們的"},{"start":10326.916,"end":10352.439,"text":"競爭力現在遠遠不如民間所以這件事情我覺得如果在財政部的立場幫國家多賺點錢增加我們公營航庫的國際跟國內的競爭力可能會是財政部很重要的任務之一所以公共合併之前有討論過嘛所以是不是也一樣給我一個目前我們針對所謂公營航庫、公營金控我們有可能在不同的"},{"start":10353.32,"end":10353.48,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10369.724,"end":10370.165,"text":"李坤成委員質詢"},{"start":10397.104,"end":10401.287,"text":"謝謝主席請我們財政部莊部長有請莊部長委員好部長好在這個禮拜二的時候呢這個複稅署的宋署長還有跟這個五區的國稅局局長有到我的辦公室來那我有提到一個現象那就是在過年之後呢"},{"start":10418.346,"end":10445.439,"text":"這個好像這個國稅局會針對生意比較好的一些小吃店去做查核但是這個局長都說沒有啦那這個我是認為這個現在的這個統一發票的這個銷售額每月20萬的標準請教一下這個部長你知道這個標準是哪時候訂定的嗎英國75年的時候英國75年訂定的啊到現在有多少年了"},{"start":10446.237,"end":10452.921,"text":"38年了38年定20萬跟現在的20萬價值有沒有差很多我們實施新制的營業稅制以後它是競銷項的稅額必須要做勾結以及扣抵所以我們使用花票是有一個很重要的功能這個我知道我只問你說38年前的20萬跟現在的20萬"},{"start":10472.338,"end":10479.11,"text":"是不是差很多了那當然差很多請教一下部長你知道38年前一碗滷肉飯大概多少錢"},{"start":10482.608,"end":10509.976,"text":"三十八年前的滷肉飯一碗是賣十塊那你知道現在一碗賣多少錢了嗎?我覺得大概都有到五十塊的都有啊對你也知道啊這個三十八年前的二十萬跟現在的十萬差很多三十八年前滷肉飯一碗才十萬塊現在要大概四十到五十啦那結果你這個二十萬的免稅額都還是定在二十萬"},{"start":10511.428,"end":10513.256,"text":"這難道沒有這個要調整的一個空間嗎?"},{"start":10514.687,"end":10536.932,"text":"委員當時訂20萬是因為我們其實應該是以客家執行的營業稅然後用使用發票來做勾結但是如果我們當時又考慮到一些小規模的營業人或特殊營業性質的湯湯水水賣那個什麼豆漿飲料的因為他開發票有點困難所以我們訂了一個平均銷售額每個月20萬這樣的一個標準但是長期以來我們一直是輔導我們的營業人去使用發票因為是去使用發票這個很重要"},{"start":10543.314,"end":10567.927,"text":"那如果說我們把標準如果調高的話第一個對消費者來說消費者長期以來他已經養成一個就是說我消費我就要索取發票那你把他調高那他相對的開發票的商家就少了那民眾減少他可以對講的一個機會這是一個對比要從兩方面來著想一個是民眾拿發票那另外一個對電價來講也是一個困擾啊我已經說過了嘛就當時候的20萬或許來講是高的那現在20萬"},{"start":10572.029,"end":10580.4,"text":"其實很容易就達到了跟委員如果說不開發票他是用查訂銷售額來我沒有說不開發票我是說這個20萬38年前訂的20萬跟現在20萬有沒有調整的空間如果要調整的話那會有我們講的影響嘛"},{"start":10589.312,"end":10589.853,"text":"所以按照部長這樣講就20萬"},{"start":10607.294,"end":10624.89,"text":"會繼續一直延續下去就對了這個沒有調整的空間就對了我們認為應該是維持這樣子會比較合理然後對於整個激增人力的查核上也可以節省剛剛您委員也提到這個38年前的20萬跟現在的20萬標準一樣結果財政部也沒有做任何的調整"},{"start":10626.491,"end":10651.591,"text":"這個已經造成很多小吃店的商家非常大的困擾這個是我們身為民意代表必須要來跟你們反映的那我再請教一下營業稅的起徵點分別是貨物的8萬然後跟勞務的4萬塊那這是95年12月修正的在上一次的修正是在76年的7月到現在95年到現在又隔了19年了"},{"start":10652.071,"end":10672.929,"text":"那當時候調整的理由是說避免通貨膨脹導致小吃戶納稅人稅負加重那所以呢財政部決定參考眾所稅的免稅額至81年到95年的條幅修正小店戶營業稅的課徵這個課稅的起徵點那就是按照這一個免稅額眾所稅的免稅額的調整"},{"start":10675.299,"end":10680.12,"text":"同樣又隔了19年了那這19年調整到第一次75年到現在38年的時間物價指數成長了85%我們眾所遂的免稅額成長了206那我再請教一下這個部長"},{"start":10694.346,"end":10707.884,"text":"這個是不是能夠按照制度化每5年或是10年按照這個物價指數或是這個免稅的成長率檢討營業稅的免徵標準或是我剛提到的免用同意發票銷售的標準"},{"start":10709.378,"end":10725.189,"text":"能不能提出一個公式出來 比如說你現在就38年不調整 那未來10年你也不調整 那總是不調整也是要有個理由出來嘛 不 跟委員報告 這個部分我們已經在研議調整了 要研議調整 對 你就是說這個營業稅免證的4萬跟8萬嗎 就是免證那個8萬跟4萬那個部分 我們會來做一個調整 這要怎麼樣的調整"},{"start":10733.394,"end":10758.211,"text":"這個部分我們會審慎的配合比如CPI的那個上漲情形調整對一樣啊就是跟19年前調整一樣嘛物價指數啊免稅額的這個額度嘛對那查訂的方式也會做一些調整是好謝謝委員我們這個部分會再正在做這很多小吃店跟我們反映的還是要跟你們財政部的所有的官員要再反映一下好謝謝委員的提示好那我再問一下這個跟這個促餐有關係的齁"},{"start":10759.468,"end":10760.888,"text":"市長請教一下我問你這個合約應不應該公開"},{"start":10790.351,"end":10817,"text":"報告委員其實按照合約呢按照所謂的政府資訊公開法是可以來公開的應該要公開按照你們的一個作業指引的規定主辦機關按照政府資訊公開法第7條的規定應該要公開投資契約嘛對不對是的但是同樣在第7條有提到如果符合該法第18條的一些規定好那我問你這個案子應不應該公開"},{"start":10818.673,"end":10839.278,"text":"我們覺得如果能夠把它公開的話呢 可以讓社會大眾比較容易來瞭解那應該要公開嘛 它到現在公開了沒有但是我想也要尊重一下基隆市政府的一個權利啦 這沒有什麼尊重基隆市政府這該公開的資訊就應該公開啊 那你在蘇財政是做什麼的這所有的資訊不是應該公開嗎"},{"start":10841.352,"end":10866.862,"text":"因為基隆市政府我想他我只問你說這個資訊應該不應該公開我到現在書面資料有沒有拿到那我可不可以在網站上面看得到網站上面除非基隆市政府自行上傳否則應該是看不到的所以你一點約束力都沒有剛剛不是講了嗎按照這個政府的資訊公開法他應該要公開嘛對不對"},{"start":10868.001,"end":10880.072,"text":"但是在同樣那一條在第18條也有去提到所以你數三四沒有用啊你沒有用啊我跟你講這個按照這個政府秩序公開法就應該公開你還幫基隆市政府講話"},{"start":10882.234,"end":10909.144,"text":"委員這個部分因為投資契約是假以雙方簽訂的如果他們基隆市政府公開的話該公開的資訊就應該公開部長認為應該要不要公開該不該公開這個要看有沒有涉及到營業機密如果涉及到營業機密當然不用公開對涉及到營業機密的話他就也可以不公開營業機密的部分我沒有說要公開但是應該公開給基隆市議員的部分就應該要公開對不對他現在有沒有給基隆市議員了"},{"start":10913.269,"end":10923.659,"text":"報告委員從昨天的新聞報導裡面他們已經把這些資訊呢公開給委員而且基隆市政府也同意給基隆市議員公開上網公開你是說現在嗎還是未來的所有的出差案至少這個案子啊"},{"start":10932.465,"end":10948.896,"text":"這個案子他們現在已經同意來公開了 所以我們會趕快來做這件事情所以我說嘛 我跟你們要資料要不到 請藉由是政府公開 你們也不敢要求按照政府資訊公開法也應該要公開 到現在蔡先生沒有任何的作為 我現在最後我只要求一點"},{"start":10949.932,"end":10965.646,"text":"你們在2023年有給他這一個基隆市政府關於東岸新的這個ROT案還有訓惡停車場的這一個前置作業有315萬的補助費有沒有包括我有的現在有爭議了現在有爭議了"},{"start":10968.905,"end":10980.817,"text":"那我要求這個第一階段他們90萬已經拿了第二階段跟第三階段的220萬在這個爭議處理結束之前暫緩撥付可不可以做到"},{"start":10982.3,"end":11006.5,"text":"報告委員我想有關這個補助要點的一些規定包括暫停來這個撥款我們有相關的規定我的意思是說現在已經進入司法爭議了那你還要給他嗎委員的意見我們回去再檢討因為其實他是兩個案件一個是東岸停車場一個是東岸一個是新二對所以新二的部分其實如果他還是新二也是有問題啦"},{"start":11008.603,"end":11036.579,"text":"呃...目前並沒有看到有什麼...也一樣啊!簽了20年長約啊!前置是東岸的前置所以齁,處三司啊!到現在為止,一個立法委員跟你們要資料要不到!阿基隆市議員的這個資料已經拿到了我問你說可不可以上網公開你說還要看基隆市政府那當然在現在為止沒有拿到任何的資料所以我要求你這個是有爭議的案件中央的補助部應該下去能不能做到?"},{"start":11038.141,"end":11055.277,"text":"委員報告就這個案子來說目前來說就東岸的部分他有申請前置作業的補助款那前置作業補助款的撥補的方式是有一定的進度一定的進度第一階段已經給了阿對那第二階段的話要看他辦理的一個進度來申請現在就是有爭議阿"},{"start":11057.146,"end":11079.572,"text":"懷疑是前一個案子前一個案子他們跟基隆市政府的一個產權爭議目前已經現在這個違封這個案子也有爭議不是前一個案子是違封這個案子有爭議他現在做的就是違封這個案子的啊違封是另外一個對啊他是另外一個就是這個案子啊你們給他的就是這個案子啊對就是這個案子啊對啊那現在有爭議啊所以本席要求在有爭議的時候就不應該撥補"},{"start":11080.712,"end":11090.961,"text":"我想這個部分我們有相關的要點我們再來檢視一下我們的要點請部長會後跟李委員好好溝通一下好不好相關文件備起好謝謝委員謝謝李委員的質詢那接下來我們請伍麗華委員質詢"},{"start":11108.413,"end":11111.776,"text":"主席好,有請財政部長有請莊部長委員好部長好我這邊有提供一個表格它是去年2023年國內各家銀行的字節營收我們可以看得到我們的公股、行庫"},{"start":11132.853,"end":11157.797,"text":"他的EPS每股盈餘的績效其實並不是最頂尖的但是我們也看到ANF國際貨幣基金組織他有一個報告他提到說各國的公共銀行不僅僅是在金融危機的時候協助穩定金融甚至是在疫情的時候承擔紓困放寒也比一般的銀行吃重"},{"start":11158.377,"end":11172.231,"text":"也就是說擁有一個穩定的公共銀行體系對於金融弱勢者的保障或公共政策的達成都會有正面的注意所以想請教部長你是不是認同這段話"},{"start":11173.733,"end":11202.452,"text":"是的,我們公股銀行常擔負著國家的一個政策任務好,謝謝部長星期一金管會也是來這邊備詢那當時我有特別去介紹原住民保留地的困境在我國私有的原保地大概有13萬公頃但是他有一個困境也就是說他到銀行要去承貸的時候他會發現被拒絕"},{"start":11203.693,"end":11220.832,"text":"而且一般都是用市場建價我們卻被採取公告限制那實際上他到了地下市場他的價值其實蠻高的流通性也很高那在這裡我是覺得"},{"start":11221.372,"end":11247.068,"text":"我們銀行常常會落入一個刻板印象他看到了原計法的規定他看到了山坡地保育利用條例的規定認為他的流通性很低所以呢作為擔保品他會覺得承擔比較高的風險所以承擔的意願很低那怎麼辦呢既然正規銀行我們求貸無門呢就很多都只能去找私人的當鋪"},{"start":11248.349,"end":11272.338,"text":"結果呢也搞不清楚什麼叫做利率多少會產生怎麼樣的債務關係所以呢到最後其實最後都是他的不動產被拍賣他的原保地被拍賣然後用非常低的價格然後又流落到市場去這是一個惡性循環也是原住民沒有辦法做事業的一個困境"},{"start":11273.618,"end":11288.644,"text":"我們長期以來也關心這個問題我知道去年的10月財政部國庫署有召開一個元寶地貸款建價會議那我長期以來也都很關心那部長您覺得元寶地的建價您怎麼看"},{"start":11291.262,"end":11306.828,"text":"剛剛委員所說的是一個就是說因為原保地它的承受人必須是我們的原住民所以它的承受對象是有受限制所以銀行在提供貸款的時候這個原保地做擔保就會有一些困難假設他要實行抵押權的時候而這個原保地也沒有辦法移轉到我們的銀行"},{"start":11312.01,"end":11340.501,"text":"也轉到銀行所以銀行在做這個元寶地的一個底壓貸款的時候確實有困境另外也跟委員報告其實原住民有一個綜合發展基金那在這個基金裡面他有筆基金是委託我們公股行庫有在做貸款人民會會做信保但是依舊有所謂的擔保品那我現在部長我是問您說元寶地來去做一個建架您怎麼看我不知道您知不知道這個會議內容"},{"start":11341.581,"end":11356.181,"text":"我知道那元寶地的建架當然是因為他第一個他的流通性的問題所以他的建架就會受到一些限制那我們就知道就是說我們金管會的黃主委那天也有回復我們委員有特別提到所以他也有"},{"start":11357.603,"end":11372.682,"text":"對,他也會說請銀行工會研究以元寶地作為單薄品的可行性以及如何的建架我想這個部分我們可以協同金管會一起來做這個部分的一些討論那我們的公股行會如果金管會訂出一定的規則那我們當然可以以循這個規則來做處理好,謝謝部長"},{"start":11375.245,"end":11395.379,"text":"因為我多次的會議其實我聽到的就是有點傷心啦因為可能會去談到一些話例如我們要為全民股東負責啊我們要賺錢啊但是為什麼我一開始會問您就是關於公股行庫的一個社會責任也好它的使命也好您也很認同嘛"},{"start":11396.279,"end":11417.926,"text":"所以我想這個部分我希望大家對於元寶地建架或者是未來我們的公股、行庫能不能夠來接收元寶地貸款這件事情我希望要有個正面積極的態度可以嗎?可以,我們會遵循經管會最後的一個規範我希望財政部可以提出更好的解方第一個我希望"},{"start":11418.486,"end":11441.193,"text":"我們的八家公股銀行可以帶頭乘坐甚至是去制定一些政策性的專案貸款那第二個呢我當然希望要來財政部增加公股的誘因嘛舉個例子來說如果公股行庫他願意乘坐元寶地的時候是不是他的董事長總經理的評鑑可以給予加分啊"},{"start":11441.813,"end":11470.814,"text":"又或者說參考紐西蘭的做法就是要去建立一個元寶地的建架系統因為其實元寶地並沒有那麼不值錢與特定的銀行合作給予我們部落族人應有的一個金融服務我是希望說部長您就帶回去研議也能夠比照金管會所說的希望可以遵照本席的一個建議方向提出一些對策跟可行性兩個月內給予回覆可以嗎"},{"start":11471.334,"end":11490.103,"text":"可以謝謝委員是那為什麼我這樣講因為我們原住民我們其實都沒有辦法貸款然後蓋房子所以有10萬賺個10萬就蓋一片廁所再有個50萬幫孩子蓋一個新房所以那個房子都長得古裡古怪所以像紐西蘭他們也是跟我們一樣"},{"start":11490.683,"end":11519.223,"text":"因為毛利的土地呢他們其實也跟我們一樣有困境可是他們會去針對去做一些專案像這個土地上的這個就是有24戶人家要蓋房子那銀行政府呢就幫他們辦理一個專案的貸款計畫我希望未來我們部長都可以來做這樣的一個鼓勵好不好好謝謝您吼那我們也知道我們政策金融永續金融普惠金融長期以來是受到重視的"},{"start":11519.963,"end":11535.645,"text":"我希望未來原名友善這個部分也能夠列入一個考量那像我們看到新聞說第一金、兆豐金、台企銀他們6月可能會有一個改選我希望未來的這個人選人對了事情就會對了都能夠來考量好嗎"},{"start":11538.808,"end":11563.467,"text":"為什麼我很關心這個問題其實2005年我們談到原住民基本法出來了之後他有一個要做原住民自治可是談了這麼多年大家都不知道要怎麼做所以呢我一直希望說我們原住民的土地可以活化利用那未來呢最重要的就是要有財源的一個自主所以我想要請教一下部長因為我看到這一次的院會質詢部長有允諾就是應該會來修"},{"start":11567.029,"end":11591.773,"text":"財化法對嗎對財化法的部分我們目前來徵詢意見然後我們要凝聚共識那何時會送進立法院這個部分當然要看共識能夠什麼時候能夠把那個距離縮到最小然後有個共識情況下來推動各位委員知道在101年也曾經有一個財化法的修正送到立法院但是因為地方政府各有不同的意見最後也就沒有修法成功"},{"start":11592.373,"end":11615.881,"text":"所以意思就是說要有共識才有可能?對,因為這涉及到地方的...那版本已經有了嗎?沒有,因為目前還在共識,我們還要再做討論我其實是要關心一個問題因為在這25年當中,地質法已經做過15次的修正那我們的兩都都已經變六都了"},{"start":11616.621,"end":11639.737,"text":"那我不知道部長您知不知道我們直轄市合併之後原住民鄉就變成原住民區那一度失去公法人地位引起嘩然所以在2014年4年之後馬上又修法改回讓原民區具有部落公法人地位那我現在想要說如果我們有去做"},{"start":11640.417,"end":11651.605,"text":"財化法的修正這個草案期間有沒有跟我們的這些關係機關開會財政部我們有跟相關機關開會但是到縣市直轄市縣市部長您就知道我想問的為什麼沒有跟鄉鎮市公所開會當然第一個目前鄉鎮市公所有198個相當多"},{"start":11662.912,"end":11683.041,"text":"因為其實縣市裡面應該他要去收集這個鄉鎮市的意見這個很重要然後一起來做中央的反應但是我相信你們跟縣市他們只會關心直轄市跟縣市政府要均一那土地面積要納入可能就討論他們關心的啦那為什麼我這樣講因為"},{"start":11685.422,"end":11699.652,"text":"我們的財化法其實有規定就是關於我們的財化法第8條財政部由於鄉鎮市它有一些是跟鄉鎮市有關的就是不是不能違是不作為"},{"start":11700.993,"end":11717.291,"text":"那為什麼我這樣講因為以我們這些合併之後的原民屈公所來講你應該很清楚像他們合併之前稅客收入是70%可是呢之後整併稅客收入是0%那我要說的是"},{"start":11717.992,"end":11733.837,"text":"重點在我們2014年在修地治法的時候寫得很清楚直轄市的區山地鄉改治者他是地方自治團體準用鄉鎮市的規定而且財政部當年你看他的第83條"},{"start":11736.779,"end":11760.499,"text":"這邊也有提到他的原住民區的財政是自治的所以未來這個財化法修正絕對至少需要跟合併之後直轄市的原民區公所來開會聽起意見部長可以嗎我們這個部分我想原民區的也非常重要的意見也非常重要因為他們地位很特別地位很特別現在就變得很尷尬"},{"start":11761.9,"end":11781.453,"text":"也就是說他們也沒有比以前更好所以至少跟他們開會聽取意見可以嗎?我們聽取意見是應該的好 那我下一次會繼續來問一個進度那我是希望說就是至少要針對這個部分來去做一個跟他們的溝通是 謝謝委員好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝吳麗華委員的質詢接著我們請謝伊鳳委員質詢提醒列席委員有5加1的時間"},{"start":11793.004,"end":11794.284,"text":"不客氣謝謝主席我現在想請我們部長請莊部長委員好莊部長請問你會不會續任"},{"start":11818.626,"end":11844.667,"text":"跟委員報告五一九我們都會隨同陳院長總辭你覺得你現在還有什麼想要做然後沒有做到的事情我每天都努力在做我每天都努力在做啊沒有做到剛才吳委員也說了我們公股銀行的經營好像看起來不如預期那請問我們公股銀行的董事長現在平均年齡幾歲"},{"start":11848.537,"end":11871.677,"text":"年齡啊 這個平均的部分應該都是65歲左右問年齡很尷尬是不是對啊問年齡那你是首長嘛你應該都有我想委員也想提的就是說我們公股航空的董事長大概年齡應該都有差不多65歲因為大部分的我們的董事長、總經理都是從基層做起那做到一段這麼長的時間在經歷部分都相當的豐富是"},{"start":11875.08,"end":11892.87,"text":"我也很客氣我都沒有去把每一個人的年齡查出來然後放在這個後面然後告訴你我也可以這樣做但是我們公股銀行是不是應該要多禁用專業的人士以及年輕化這是一個未來怎麼樣子培養我們的財經的這個相關專業的人才是不是"},{"start":11900.695,"end":11905.721,"text":"是的,委員當然第一個我們要禁用專業那是一定的然後剛剛在那個王委員也提到我們一定會透過公開透明然後按照不同的職級要求不同的學歷跟經歷的一個標準所以專業是一定的那至於年輕化當然也是要做"},{"start":11919.818,"end":11945.449,"text":"但是我覺得相關的質疾裡面有關的他的經驗、高度、廣度都是需要時間的累積的那年輕朋友進來以後應該給予最好的一個培育讓他們成長我覺得這都是要併進啦要併進的你不能說這麼多然後做得很少啊事實上我們公國王府招考很多每年都有招考許多心血進來"},{"start":11947.41,"end":11969.867,"text":"還有去年我們的稅收也是又超徵超過3000億那現在目前行政院有沒有討論未來要怎麼樣用這個超徵的稅額以及到底是不是會發現金我看到我今天看到經濟部的王美花部長他說台電的虧損今年是3900多億"},{"start":11972.589,"end":11986.622,"text":"然後呢他們的那個什麼他的資本額已經快要不服他的那個已經是破產了到底要不要再易註台電要不要補他的資本那補了資本以後會不會漲電價"},{"start":11988.283,"end":12005.641,"text":"那如果你又補資本又漲電價等於是一頭牛剝了兩層皮嘛那我們的健保呢健保的隱藏的怎樣隱藏的負債是多少預估是10兆欸"},{"start":12006.902,"end":12023.688,"text":"過去我們看到老保的這個精算報告他的潛藏負債是10兆那到底要不要保老保呢還是讓他就是這樣子財務的結構一直惡化下去"},{"start":12024.708,"end":12041.781,"text":"還有健保呢?健保這個禮拜取消了掛號費的上限那是不是變相的長健保那如果我們在挹注健保的財源的時候是不是同樣的都是"},{"start":12042.842,"end":12055.743,"text":"第一個他沒有改善他的財務結構啊卻是還是同樣的未來我們還是要解決整個財務的赤字問題所以我想請問你超生稅額補誰"},{"start":12058.057,"end":12066.342,"text":"跟委員報告我們的稅客收入的實收數大於預算數這個部分那並不是超徵每一徵都是按照法律來徵收的那在我們財政部我們因為稅務執行的好我們就用公共債務法的規定第一個我今年112年的總預算的舉借的1732億的預算數我沒有舉借然後我錢也還"},{"start":12081.75,"end":12101.026,"text":"這不是我問的問題啦那至於有剩餘我們會到累計到設計剩餘那至於這個用途怎麼用我會認為是這個部分第一個涉及到國家整體的政策那主計總書跟行政會做討論好所以你也不知道就對了這個部分財政部是就稅務的部分來做說明好我問一個你們主政的"},{"start":12102.146,"end":12123.983,"text":"綠能稅我問你地方政府可不可以科綠能稅過去財政部說明綠能稅可以增加地方的財政但是不符合綠色租稅的範疇可能造成參與再生能源設置的意願降低所以不"},{"start":12126.206,"end":12134.839,"text":"與政府鼓勵綠能發展的方向不同所以到底地方政府可不可以來課徵綠能稅"},{"start":12138.793,"end":12158.427,"text":"委員報告有關地方稅跟國稅的部分財政事務法規定那另外哪一些稅地方可以課特別稅或者是附加稅這個部分在地方稅的知識通則裡面也都有規定那至於綠能稅的部分地方是不是有課我們負稅署說明一下好嗎可以嗎委員好"},{"start":12159.387,"end":12172.196,"text":"實際上地方稅法通則裏面有授權地方政府他可以在符合規定之下去開徵他的臨時稅或是一些我們叫特別稅那目前我們手上知道並沒有地方政府開徵綠能稅"},{"start":12175.174,"end":12202.646,"text":"對,我現在在問的是你們財政部的那財政部說了那中央可不可以課綠能稅呢目前沒有這個稅目那目前來說就碳的部分減碳的部分是碳費先行對啊,那是環境部的嘛那是環境部的碳費我講的是綠能稅喔我現在講的是綠能稅那個綠能稅目前沒有這個稅目"},{"start":12205.757,"end":12206.218,"text":"接下來我們請黃國昌委員質詢"},{"start":12241.322,"end":12259.573,"text":"謝謝主席是不是麻煩有請財政部的部長請莊部長第一銀行董事長邱有請邱董事長合作金庫董事長林衍茂林董事長三位有請林董委員好時間暫停"},{"start":12274.411,"end":12277.663,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12281.309,"end":12306.73,"text":"三位好時間的關係不一一問候2018年開始在追慶富烈爐建壁案的時候發現非常多公股行庫的基本上沒有什麼金融專業當董事長只要抱對掌權者的大腿就可以當董事長了那個時候因為慶富烈爐建壁案下台的我們現在的廖燦昌"},{"start":12308.561,"end":12327.017,"text":"那個時候負責下台蘇貞昌重新任用他的時候跟大家說阿他這個叫做用人為財阿我那時候痛批阿這種人事任用我痛批這種人事任用結果蘇貞昌口中用人為財的廖燦昌後來繼續爆發了什麼綠眼炸彈案"},{"start":12333.253,"end":12335.135,"text":"請合戶跟議員來說明可以嗎?"},{"start":12363.769,"end":12380.97,"text":"當然啊 所以我才請兩位董事長上來 不要浪費時間啊目前沒有為什麼沒有 可以不求償喔放水打假球喔為什麼可以不求償 說個道理跟大家講因為是老長官 官官相護"},{"start":12390.675,"end":12407.73,"text":"報告委員我們是刑事案件有刑事案件附帶民事的球場球場多少錢沒有限定的金額怎麼可能沒有限定的金額你要提民事訴訟要球場沒有限定的金額那我先問你啦你們組織多少錢"},{"start":12409.837,"end":12413.599,"text":"跟委員報告是15億15億來議員損失多少錢?15萬的部分大概是57億57億15億的有球場57億的沒有球場 來來來損失15億的講清楚球場多少錢?"},{"start":12435.224,"end":12444.398,"text":"欸不好意思董事長我在問你問題欸損失15億的球場多少錢那個您上來不是在上面打坐我請問你問題要請你回答"},{"start":12448.697,"end":12475.191,"text":"沒關係啦我今天問題點出來了齁請兩家銀行的董事長回去準備書面資料回答兩個問題第一個有沒有球場如果沒有球場理由是什麼第二個有沒有進行假扣押有沒有進行財產的保全要不然官司打多久等到判決確定了以後全部脫廠脫得乾乾淨淨的拿債權憑證回家要幹嘛這兩件事情兩位董事長可以承諾可以做到嗎"},{"start":12478.036,"end":12489.276,"text":"應該可以吧沒有這麼複雜吧是不是可以請兩位董事長回答請兩位董事長用麥克風回答這個我們會再跟委員回報另外一位董事長"},{"start":12490.674,"end":12519.513,"text":"我想我們目前是對借戶在球場之中那對於董事長借戶在球場?你的借戶是誰啊?我們的借戶就是慶富跟這個球場的大嗎?目前還在執行中對嘛!你執行的多少錢?目前執行中的部分大概十來億啦收回五十七億快五十七億收回的部分有二十二億"},{"start":12520.615,"end":12529.422,"text":"所以現在到底多少錢?還有30幾億沒有追?對嘛!你還有57億沒有追嘛!可以這樣放水喔?來請部長是委員你倆在野的時候都說要修財政收支劃分法蘇貞昌說2012年批判得很嚴重喔說"},{"start":12545.595,"end":12573.234,"text":"那個時候要求要修財化法看到這些縣市編不出預算嗷嗷待哺米缸空空的心裡很難過我不曉得現在的行政院院長會不會體會到地方政府現在的心情然後愛心德2018年當行政院院長的時候他也承諾要修財化法到現在2024年持續跳票持續跳票"},{"start":12574.878,"end":12597.287,"text":"民進黨執政了以後享受到了錢跟錢一把抓的滋味財化法不斷的上懷沒有下文部長一直說你要凝聚各縣市的共識我先問兩個基本的問題第一個垂直分配不均的問題"},{"start":12599.007,"end":12623.4,"text":"統籌分配款規模太低不管是民進黨執政、國民黨執政、民進黨在野、國民黨在野所有的學者專家大家點出來的問題都一樣針對目前民進黨政府針對垂直分配不均的問題因為我先不跟你扯水平分配的問題要不然你又推給地方政府沒有共識啦沒有辦法修啦你去年五月的說辭到現在"},{"start":12624.921,"end":12644.221,"text":"一模一樣從來沒改變過我去查過了所以我繼續在聽你說要等社會共識或各界事業共識沒有意義啦我們先處理隨時分配不均的問題依照目前財政部規劃的版本就擴大統籌分配款的規模目前的規劃方案是什麼"},{"start":12645.383,"end":12664.221,"text":"跟委員報告啊怎麼樣就是所謂的垂直分配擴大統籌分配稅款的規模這個確實是我們在在研議過程當中的一個方向目前研議的結果是什麼那這個部分都需要試算都需要試算試算出來的沒有中央跟地方這幾年的財政變化也很大所以試算出來的沒有目前沒有"},{"start":12665.712,"end":12679.918,"text":"你從什麼時候開始試算?這個部分因為一直在變動一直在變動大部分不會啊你看沒有你們的data欸我2021年、2022年、2023年的我全部都試算出來啦講空話"},{"start":12681.365,"end":12702.139,"text":"地方政府沒共識連全職分派不均的問題問題試算出來了沒有還沒有開始試算欸呃 各位報告持 持續的都在做試算的工作持 持續都在做事啊沒關係不要再黑話今天會後以後把你們到目前此時此刻試算的結果給我可以嗎"},{"start":12703.34,"end":12725.839,"text":"這個部分我們要看一下資料的一個...剛剛你不是說持續的在試算嗎?那手上應該有數字啦!壞貨提供給我可不可以?我想這個部分我們還是需要審慎的研議,對請你給我試算的結果,你要研議什麼?研議這個試算的結果這麼正確回去重新打計算機嗎?不會的,我們...那水里壞貨把試算的結果給我可以嗎?部長你給個時間啦,給個時間比較好給個時間所以要給委員長一個月可以嗎?"},{"start":12731.523,"end":12745.211,"text":"一個月我們給好謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢接著我們請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在所以我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員也不在接著我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":12780.579,"end":12796.771,"text":"主席有請部長有請中央部長有請國產署署長有請曾署長委員好部長辛苦了首先"},{"start":12798.149,"end":12815.821,"text":"要謝謝財政部還有國產署針對本席在109年3月24日開始協調、質詢針對原住民曾租國有土地、申請原住民保留地經過申請"},{"start":12818.863,"end":12821.245,"text":"董事長：立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":12832.886,"end":12861.792,"text":"國產署辛苦的來完成修正財政部在112年10月4日修正發布這個國有非公用不動產出租管理辦法第28條然後開始執行這個國產署的主要是花蓮台東的辦事處這個非常辛苦這個也辦了很多場的"},{"start":12863.134,"end":12890.655,"text":"說明會辦了很多場說明會本席也盡可能去參加然後去了解這個我們這個公部門然後我們民眾的一些這個一個意見現在就是說很多的意見就是因為一開始你們希望的提供的就是所有的收集過去繳"},{"start":12893.912,"end":12919.427,"text":"這個繳稅的收集所以這個部分因為已經這個辦了好幾場這一段時間已經退還的租金到底有多少這個提供這個素面資料那我所知道的只有一個八十幾歲的老太太"},{"start":12920.865,"end":12934.779,"text":"他全部的收據都留著只有一個啦我所見到的是這樣其他的事實上這很難大家也是一樣不會一直把收據留存所以我也開過協調會請國產署"},{"start":12938.342,"end":12938.963,"text":"財政部莊部長翠雲率"},{"start":12963.618,"end":12974.706,"text":"提供一些不是長期的人力、階段時間的一些臨時的人力給他們。這是我自己從顧問員的角度來去考量這個部分。"},{"start":12976.116,"end":12995.63,"text":"就是把這些過去因為租約啦最起碼租約租約有土地地號嘛然後這個從這個地號然後歷年的公告限值就可以換算他的租金所以然後怎麼樣去有效的退還就不會讓這個"},{"start":12999.004,"end":13014.958,"text":"現在的公務員他本來工作就很忙了還要去做這個我看了也是不太忍心但是一不得不做所以這個部分這個給部長還有署長因為主要就是花蓮台東的辦事處了這個部分可以嗎"},{"start":13016.432,"end":13033.845,"text":"謝謝委員反映民眾的心聲我想這個部分前面的辦法修了後面的執行方式也定了最後就是在執行的時候讓民眾可以更快速的拿到退還的租金我想這個部分國產署已經在研議一個方式我是不是請署長來做一個辨明的說明好"},{"start":13037.305,"end":13052.416,"text":"報告委員,剛剛委員提到過有很多人可能收據都不見了那上一次也在委員那邊協調就是由我們國產署現有的資料庫裡面包括過雖然有些租約可能都換約過了但我們會用追溯的"},{"start":13053.016,"end":13061.49,"text":"例如現在的租約資料裡面也可以調出來然後他上一次的租約的資料也可以調出來那從這個租約裡面剛剛委員講的按照我們當時候寄收的一個標準是用公告地價"},{"start":13068.46,"end":13095.322,"text":"在每一年的公告計價的資料也都存在那我們會來核算我想以這個簡便辨明的方式說實在的有些要他拿10年20年的資料可能有他的困難性那我們就用既有的這些資料來核算那核算的結果我們會通知這個申請人到底對這樣的核算的這個計價的結果是不是同意如果同意就作為一個退還的一個標準"},{"start":13096.172,"end":13105.083,"text":"好,非常謝謝,這個剛才能力的部分如果車輪有不足還是要提供好,謝謝,也請委員支持另外就是說這個"},{"start":13107.182,"end":13127.263,"text":"您們定期,不要說每年,不用每個月,半年能夠提供一下這個辦理的情形。好,我們把那個成果是不是每一季提供給委員,把我們的成果。對,另外就是說很重要的就是有關緩收、免收的部分,就是要"},{"start":13129.4,"end":13156.857,"text":"最主要就是其實是要讓這個鄉鎮公所第一線的鄉鎮公所的人員要請他們協助主動協助跟國產署辦事處那邊因為民眾不清楚然後有的新說的案件之類的這個部分的協調那另外這個我已經執行過很多次了這個退伍會的部分我們好像有簽過 跟他們一起簽"},{"start":13157.697,"end":13184.09,"text":"部長、署長其實我沒有求的很多我只要限收我們就先限收好了先限收原住民申請原住民保留地的案件就先限收在這邊就是說屬於退伍會管理的"},{"start":13185.28,"end":13207.65,"text":"屬於退府會管理的部分但是是原住民在使用它符合增化邊緣住民保留地的條件的先處理這個部分就很少了所以你要請財政部國常署跟延民會還有退府會"},{"start":13209.797,"end":13211.498,"text":"謝謝鄭天才委員的質詢 接著我們請羅廷偉委員質詢"},{"start":13239.989,"end":13243.292,"text":"謝謝主席有請財政部莊部長有請莊部長委員好"},{"start":13250.114,"end":13276.888,"text":"好部長你好我想我們即將會面對電價要上漲健保費也有可能會上漲而現在呢我想民眾苦不堪言今天我要為民發聲要為民轉達一些事物我想就本席所知現行的所得稅法第5條第1項免稅額免預消費者物價指數叫上次調整年度的指數上漲累積達3%按上漲的幅度調整之部長"},{"start":13277.668,"end":13286.824,"text":"台灣的央行、美國的央行、日本的央行還有很多國家的央行都是以通膨2%為警戒值為什麼所得稅法財政部主管的法規是3%"},{"start":13291.696,"end":13317.757,"text":"就經濟學來看財政部是一國國政財政政策的一個表徵央行是一國貨幣財政政策的一個表徵兩個單位就像國家的左手右手都是同一個身體的組織為什麼會一國兩個體制不同分別央行2%以上就有可能考慮啟動利率的政策或其他的相關政策而財政部要3%才會啟動租稅政策這樣子的調整呢"},{"start":13320.254,"end":13346.4,"text":"第一個央行是考量有關就是2%的時候他可能調整有所相關的政策利率但是我們的稅的部分定為3%當時可能是考慮就是說避免過度的一個平凡的調整我想這個部分委員的提議蠻好的我覺得我們也許可以去了解一下為什麼當時定3%我想這應該我們說的滾動式調整當年度我們不知道是什麼樣的狀況但現在"},{"start":13348.424,"end":13375.692,"text":"民眾苦不堪言我希望這個部分免稅額的部分能不能給我們一點小確信所以本席在這邊提出這個問題我想大家要知道如果連續兩年都1.5%累積才有3%只要一年就發生3%院長你覺得對每一個像這樣子的納稅人結果會一樣嗎或者是跟溫水煮青蛙前兩年的通膨如果1.5 1.4到了第三年才因為新的通膨超過3%"},{"start":13377.492,"end":13391.668,"text":"我們要知道前兩年沒有調高免稅額第三年才宣布要調高的時候請問是第三年嗎不是是最快第四年才可以申請第三年的年所得享受受調高的這一個部分這結果"},{"start":13392.549,"end":13416.552,"text":"我們累積了4年才超過3%到第5年才有可能到第4年享受調高的結果您懂我的意思嗎?了解那跟委員報告就是不是一年一年我們是用累積就是說比上一次調整累積超過3%不是一年看單一年度的3%對所以是累積嘛我現在我們的問題就是累積讓我們享受不到及時的一個救援"},{"start":13417.032,"end":13441.119,"text":"我想通膨對一個經濟體系來說就很多的情況我們就像人類發燒拜託我們這樣發燒以後我們的貨幣政策財政政策就像退燒藥我們應該見急忌急啊我們應該結果通膨已經燒起來了結果你這個淨火你沒有用淨水來澆洗你要等到兩三年以後甚至是三四年四五年以後的原水來澆我想這樣子的一個法條"},{"start":13442.259,"end":13463.426,"text":"我們應該要適時的做一個調整我想您對於我的一個論述您覺得怎麼樣?您委員的論述我了解那我們也回去了解一下為什麼所得稅法當時這樣訂以及您的一個論述是不是可以納入我們的一個參考是不是容我們回去研議那您願意朝向苦民所苦的一個方向來"},{"start":13464.746,"end":13493.716,"text":"苦民所苦一致是我們努力在做的至於演繹的可行性我們要看結果是怎麼樣部長我真的是要為民拜託請託台灣飽受通膨之苦多少的企業公司倒著倒財源的財源減薪的減薪失業的失業多少薪水階級工作根本遭不保釋我們現在看到結果還有工作的人通膨已經打擊他申報眾所遂名目遂附"},{"start":13494.136,"end":13520.775,"text":"沒有降,實質的稅負卻增加了等到按法條終於可以調高免稅額扣除額等等的時候多少的上班族和公司行號早就已經陣亡了他們在等待調高的半路上我想真的是非常的辛苦本席在此建議修改所的稅法還有納稅者權利保護法採取逐年滾動式的一個做法每年多少通膨就調高多少的幅度我想這會很難嗎您覺得"},{"start":13523.157,"end":13541.153,"text":"除了免稅額跟那個扣除額之外那在納稅者保護法裡面還有一個基本生活費那個是每一年都在調整的就已經做適度的反應了就本期剛剛所提出整個論述我希望你能夠好好適時去做一個我們研議啦因為我覺得不會難啦"},{"start":13541.914,"end":13542.914,"text":"委員 這個涉及到法律的修正"},{"start":13569.766,"end":13598.425,"text":"對,但是我說就實務面法律修正當然剛剛我們說的嘛我們苦民所苦我們去研議看看嘛但是實際上如果法律修正完以後它實際在我們的相關軟體當中它是實際可以改數值的那法律修正完當然我們就按照法律的規定來做好最後我想再請問我想因為我本身來自台中我想台中儒學院市長長期也在這個委員會有做一個相關的一個問證但我就台中來說財政劃分收支法"},{"start":13599.366,"end":13619.608,"text":"在520之前你有辦法提出草案嗎?我想這個委員知道各地方政府的意見還相當的分歧所以在520之前應該是提出來事實上是有困難的我們期許有機會520之後還看得到你那520之後你有辦法在這一年度提出草案嗎?520之後那當然會有新政府"},{"start":13620.848,"end":13622.008,"text":"謝謝羅廷文委員的質詢 接著我們請陳佩瑜委員質詢"},{"start":13654.889,"end":13656.898,"text":"謝謝主席 有請財政部長 有請中央部長"},{"start":13663.957,"end":13679.69,"text":"部長午安時間有限我快速跟您請教關於台皮籃球隊長期沒有勞健保的問題去年一整年有非常多立法委員一起關心我們報告是從10月3日去年的10月3日我們就先跟陳建然院長討論過這個狀況當時在10月18日的財政委員會也跟部長您質詢過相關的檢討跟進度部長您的回應非常的正向10月25日我們還特地跑去慰問委員會"},{"start":13692.64,"end":13697.763,"text":"跟勞動部確定這個相關的關係來協助台皮離親總算在11月30號我們收到一個很棒的回文財政部回文說即將在2024年7月1號將以台皮籃球協會作為簽約跟投保單位我念這麼刻意我想要請部長給予正面的回應這個消息是真的嗎?"},{"start":13717.598,"end":13729.688,"text":"投保這個部分我們還跟藍協再來做一個討論也跟勞動部在討論確實還需要討論但是我們可以即將期待7月1日全面換月這件事情一定會如期的發生對嗎沒有問題好謝謝部長的回應"},{"start":13732.811,"end":13755.281,"text":"那這整件事情其實當然還有更多很好的處理方法不過我們真的要說在公開的場合說台皮現在這個狀態擺脫過去長期被球迷詬病的包含簽約的問題、勞健保的爭議還有不再由顧問作為合約的甲方也不用再讓球員自己去找職業公會來投保這件事情我要再次的公開謝謝部長跟董事長你們願意改革長期以來存在這個問題非常非常的困難但是"},{"start":13760.683,"end":13776.501,"text":"我要代表球員再次感謝財政部跟董事長這邊給予的相關的回應但是我們也要拜託財政部如同剛剛也有委員問了不管520以後您在不在這個位置上都希望財政部可以緊盯台皮要落實給我們看到這個報告的做法可以嗎這個部分可以請部長回應嗎"},{"start":13780.405,"end":13798.224,"text":"我們有關這個落實的一個執行的情形可以給委員一個報告好謝謝謝謝那我們辦公室當然也會持續追蹤喔那接下來跟部長快速討論一下關於去年籃球假球事件的後續我們知道財政部有兩支球隊那即使在休會的期間我們看到有很多工作跟討論跟會議都在進行"},{"start":13800.506,"end":13809.135,"text":"我們看到媒體上甚至還有提到台銀跟台酒期望建立防堵信託這個部分之前也跟部長林在財政委員會上討論過林楚英委員也問過這個題目後續我們看到藍協的副秘書長張誠"},{"start":13815.822,"end":13833.878,"text":"中他說:「這件事情可以參考棒球經驗,由工會來處理更為恰當。同時他也提到球隊對於參與提撥的部分也是有意願的。這邊我想跟部長快速確認一下目前台營在防堵信託的建立機制進度如何?」"},{"start":13835.425,"end":13860.623,"text":"委員報告台灣銀行還有我們鷹九公司都向藍鞋去提案了我們建議比照職棒來成立職藍球員房賭信託基金以及職藍球員簽約金的一個信託那我們來保障球員退役後的一個生活我想這個部分我們持續的會跟藍鞋來做溝通我們正式行文給藍鞋了兩家公司都正式行文已經正式行文給藍鞋了"},{"start":13862.905,"end":13878.271,"text":"因為我們之前確認到進度是台銀只有打過兩次的電話那如果如同部長您說的已經正式行為有打算開啟相關的討論跟後續的會議我們辦公室也會持續來追蹤那這邊也要拜託財政部部長這邊您也要加緊幫忙盯著好的謝謝委員的協助"},{"start":13879.511,"end":13891.745,"text":"那所以最後我們要再確認一下兩支球隊是不是真的如同新聞中藍鞋所提到的他們真的也有意願一起參與共同強化整個防堵機制就如同您剛剛說的是有意願的而且也有相關公文然後要開啟相關的討論對嗎是啊好這兩支球隊"},{"start":13895.129,"end":13900.573,"text":"最後我們就簡單的說明我們要感謝部長的重視跟支持在這邊我要拜託部長、拜託所有的相關的人員由財政部來責成臺灣銀行跟球員公會進行討論我們希望目標在2024年啟動籃球版本的球員防堵信託基金第二個有關於所屬球隊臺銀跟台平提撥信託基金的細節"},{"start":13920.47,"end":13945.527,"text":"我們希望可以在3個月內看到跟求員工會開始進行討論那上面的工作進度因為時間的關係可不可以在3個月內給立法院一個相關報告當然也要給我們辦公室好的好謝謝部長謝謝董事長謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳佩玉委員的質詢接著我們請蔓玉珍委員蔓玉珍委員蔓玉珍委員不在接著我們請徐欣怡委員徐欣怡委員徐欣怡委員也不在陳廷輝委員陳廷輝委員陳廷輝委員也不在"},{"start":13947.429,"end":13971.18,"text":"張嘉峻委員、張嘉峻委員、張嘉峻委員也不在鄭振賢委員、鄭振賢委員、鄭振賢委員也不在楊瓊瑩委員、楊瓊瑩委員、楊瓊瑩委員也不在邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員也不在林柱英委員、林柱英委員、林柱英委員也不在侯孟凱委員、侯孟凱委員、侯孟凱委員也不在蔡宇文、蔡宇文、蔡宇文委員、蔡宇文也不在今日登機發言委員均已巡討完畢我們現在處理臨時提案共兩案請議事人員"},{"start":13977.625,"end":13991.218,"text":"按由一,臺灣消費者從事海外網購交易頻繁根據一一位注冊人數截至目前已多達五百萬人可知,碰到詐騙或交換分請各位備詢列席人員請安靜,現在還在議事宣讀當中"},{"start":13995.342,"end":14023.028,"text":"財政部官務署目前針對消費者受詐救濟程序措施效果不彰另有退換或需求之消費者申請退稅程序需耗費大量金錢成本請財政部官務署針對海外購物詐騙退稅救濟程序以及退換或退稅程序簡化提出相關修法制度改善辦法並於一個月內提出報告提案人郭國文、吳秉瑞、王世堅、李坤誠"},{"start":14024.67,"end":14043.915,"text":"案由2根據國際組織推估台灣2050老年人口占比恐怕超越鄰國日本老年化為台灣未來發展重要課題其中退休金制度的優化就顯重要參照日本從2014年推動NISA制度"},{"start":14044.695,"end":14071.964,"text":"期間更兩度放寬NISA的限制台灣目前做法相對落後經查財政部過去五年眾所遂達成率皆破百推動台灣TISA可預期有成長空間請財政部重新評估台灣引進個人投資儲蓄帳戶制度之可能性並於一個月內提出報告提案人郭國文、吳秉瑞、王世堅、李坤誠宣讀完畢"},{"start":14074.028,"end":14101.153,"text":"我們稍作休息,我先請財政部這邊表述意見我們還有一位委員還沒到,你先表述一下意見跟看法報告委員,我可以先說嗎?你先說你先說沒關係好,那就按由一的部分是不是請委員容許我們是不是做一個修正,建議一個修正並於一個月內提出書面報告,就增加書面兩個字"},{"start":14102.54,"end":14127.445,"text":"一個月嗎?一個月內按由二的部分是不是我們有一個調整的一個建議就是說最後一句就是並於兩個月就一個月是不是建議修正為兩個月內提出書面報告就增加書面兩個字以上的建議這主要是時間修正內我們有什麼意見嗎?內門就加一個書面兩個字加書面兩個字請稍等一下我們等一下賴委員"},{"start":14168.058,"end":14184.409,"text":"就照學生結婚,修正他們的單位,如果他們有跟他提案就照學生結婚就是因為他沒來"},{"start":14226.623,"end":14247.396,"text":"內委員已經到場我想請問現場兩位委員對剛剛的臨體有沒有什麼意見沒有意見我們就照協商結論修正通過本會議就如下決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員諮詢及未答覆或補充資訊請財政部一周內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限者從其所定"},{"start":14247.976,"end":14258.74,"text":"委員羅明財、陳玉貞所提書面質詢列入記錄、刊登公報並請財政部以書面答覆本次會議議程已進行完畢。堂友不在場委員補書面質詢一併列入記錄、刊登公報並請藝術人協助處理。上會"}]}},{"id":"149594","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149594","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe179b65eae6e3c4cddc62c46c87ca327ff8ba9b0039caa7a69ce1b1fe81fa1c0a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"13:02:14 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"text":"鼓勵國內自己生產,不然的話到時候一封鎖的話,那原廠就進不來了。那自己又沒有辦法製造,這個就會有風險。也就是必須要準備盤點、監控相關的庫存。我們現在有480多箱。"},{"start":476.227,"end":480.771,"text":"我最後再問一個問題就是我們實施藥品費用分配比例目標"},{"start":502.307,"end":525.089,"text":"每年檢討以及調整藥價以後藥商必須要事先跟醫事機構重新議價藥品市場的穩定性會不會比之前兩年調整一次"},{"start":526.823,"end":530.425,"text":"之前兩年兩年一次比較可能產生藥價黑洞"},{"start":554.622,"end":573.584,"text":"對,那個幅度會變大,其實對藥廠來講的話也不是太大部長的回答就是只要有預期,大家就會做準備所以就不會有太大的變化好,謝謝部長、謝謝主席好,謝謝楊耀文的質詢"}]}},{"id":"149593","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149593","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbeb79546f07e693e40dc62c46c87ca327ff8ba9b0039caa7a67e19a66d38e060955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:51:49 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麻煩請衛福部部長還有健保署署長好 請部長跟署長部長好部長好 署長好部長這個是你去年9月8號受訪的時候有提到明年將要規劃65歲以上的經濟弱勢長者那如果是健保第6類的話就可以免付保費"},{"start":36.914,"end":50.668,"text":"那去年呢我也要你們在這個長者的年齡規定上呢就原住民的部分應該要下修到55歲我想要請教一下部長這個目前規劃的進度如何那所需要的經費大概是多少"},{"start":53.929,"end":75.599,"text":"這部分的話我想我現在手上是沒有這個資料那因為規劃是在社家署他今天我們沒有來出席所以我想會後是不是我再把資料給委員好 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謝謝那我想我也很高興聽到有我們初步有這樣子的一個好消息那這個我理解本席理解就是說或許在這樣子的提議要求"},{"start":426.714,"end":426.915,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":446.115,"end":463.946,"text":"我幫這個金門爭取到這個IDS400萬元經費的新聞是2月22號見報的那因為這個報紙被其他同仁看到了所以打電話去罵完你們之後呢2月24號"},{"start":467.051,"end":494.936,"text":"這個內容呢這件爭取這件事情我們就把我爭取這個提高就是離島健保點數的這件事情拿去做新聞然後寫成是他們辦公室爭取的那我是說我只是想心裡有一個疑惑啦會不會是他們打完電話罵完你們之後我也很想了解說是有哪一位有特別提醒"},{"start":499.864,"end":513.953,"text":"陳瑩有在幫這個離島爭取健保點數的加成所以被拿去做新聞我希望我這個情況如果說是我剛剛講的那個樣子的話"},{"start":516.374,"end":533.387,"text":"陳瑩"},{"start":533.527,"end":553.516,"text":"您的人很好那覺得說好的政策不需要去強調這個著作權但是呢因為我們還是我還是覺得就是說誰在做事誰有做事民眾有知的權利我們這個部分還是要"},{"start":554.036,"end":583.763,"text":"陳瑩議員"},{"start":584.179,"end":602.835,"text":"委員的努力結果大家都看得見但是難免會有這種被收割的一個情況不過我們的同仁被罵也是很習慣好啦那我們在這邊也是再一次謝謝大家的努力謝謝好謝謝陳委員的質詢接下來我們請楊瓊英"}]}},{"id":"149592","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149592","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe74ac6a1e04035d69dc62c46c87ca327ff8ba9b0039caa7a6f51543f03295d4945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"12:34:27 - 12:51:38","影片長度":"00:17:11","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健康保險署、食品藥物管理署就「健保藥價調整，藥廠停產慢性病用藥之因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":1031,"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:51:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T12:34:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1250,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時34分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["劉委員建國：食藥署的署長也一起來。"],["主席：食藥署署長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。部長，我剛剛看到王召委最後一個提案，原本我也是敬表同意，但是從這個案我要去延伸很多問題。王召委的提案是針對小朋友在學校的營養午餐，對不對？所以我們現在要做這件事情就是避免小朋友吃到蘇丹紅釋出的添加物，因為它有引起致癌成分的存在，對不對？這個事情、這個案過了，它會延伸出什麼問題，你有思考過嗎？就像前幾天王召委也提了關於零食、火鍋店的鴨血，現在這種天氣，臺灣的餐飲業者中火鍋店所占的比例多高？火鍋店的食用者會不會有小朋友？他們也一定會去，要不要處理？小朋友的事情我們要特別重視，但臺灣任何一位消費者的事情我們更加重視。我剛剛看到衛福部的官員吃很大塊的雞排、雞腿飯，那個雞腿有沒有外加辣椒粉？要不要禁？衛福部官員的命也是命啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，這個辣椒粉的問題之所以不好解決，原因就在這裡。"],["劉委員建國：對，所以禮拜一我就特別講到，其實食安風暴，像這種添加物不是單一的成品，不像以前的毒奶粉，對不對？它是一個添加物。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：你們要非常慎重、嚴謹的、積極的，甚至是阻絕中國進到臺灣的這些東西，馬上當機立斷，不能讓它進來的就不能再讓它進來。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，這個問題就是這樣，目前我們的辣椒粉大部分都是仰賴進口，中國大陸那邊佔了80%。"],["劉委員建國：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：現在這些違規的是50%，如果一下子通通禁了，我們會沒有辣的可以吃，對於國人的飲食習慣來講還是會有一個影響。"],["劉委員建國：不是這樣啦！部長，80%全部仰賴中國進口，出問題的是50%，在80%裡面的50%出了問題就已經占了一半，以100%來講就是占了一半了。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是剩下的還是要讓它進來，不能看到是中國的就一律禁止進口，這樣是不太好的一個管制措施。"],["劉委員建國：所以你們要更加嚴謹，看要如何去做相關的因應，什麼地方該禁就該禁，對不對？包括前幾天有些縣市針對營養午餐的部分就已經禁了、有些縣市是還沒有，而你是敬表尊重嘛！不對啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：不對啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：為什麼？"],["劉委員建國：就不對嘛！今天王召委提出這個案子，是不是就全國通用了嘛！我要表達的是，可能有些事情你要事先展現該怎麼做就怎麼做。這個時間會很長嗎？可能就是食藥署要辛苦一點，積極地看要怎麼做相關的查緝、比對、檢驗。對於一些可能發生的或是比例比較高的地方，你們就必須持續的對外公告、對外表示，這裡可能比較危險、這裡是高風險，所以你們就先處理掉，暫時就不可以嘛！我覺得你們應該是要做這些事情。"],["薛部長瑞元：有啦！現在往下追查就是這個原則，誠如委員剛才講的，如果下游廠商的產品量是大的，我們就要先處理啊！"],["劉委員建國：部長與署長都沒經歷過過去的食安風暴，就像發生了這麼嚴重的東西之後，後面還會再跟著其他東西一直出現，不會結束。你不要把這個蘇丹紅事件變成一個沙塵暴，讓風飛沙飛得到處都是。"],["薛部長瑞元：應該不會啦！"],["劉委員建國：不會？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個已經是在收斂當中了。"],["劉委員建國：我替你們感到非常憂心，甚至也很擔心，真的啦！剛才我來的時候看到林委員在質詢，其實那些追查的方向是沒有問題的喔！"],["薛部長瑞元：那個部分其實是有一個困難點，如果我們要針對個別的公司去稽查，看他們是不是有相關的子公司或分公司，這些就要一起查出來，這樣我們就變成經濟部的商業司了，其實我們的困難就在這裡，做這件事情大概是很困難的。"],["劉委員建國：但是遇到重大食安的事情，基本上就是跨部會的合作，最起碼是這樣嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：是啊！是沒有錯啦！"],["劉委員建國：因為我們不希望它持續地流竄、持續的被使用嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：但是這種牽連的情形可能是有一些困難，不過我們會努力進行跨部會的協調。"],["劉委員建國：我就是建議部長、提醒部長，包括署長在內，對於這件事情的因應可能要更有智慧、更積極、更展現一些魄力，這樣才能快速解決掉這場風暴。","今天的主題是缺藥問題，剛剛也有委員特別問部長，在1月份的時候部長有用這個說法，有時候我覺得部長說的話是蠻重點的、蠻經典的，這個會讓人家記得特別清楚，未嘗不是一件好事。如果堅持用原廠藥只能等死，這是部長的講法，對不對？但是它的前面如果再配一句話就能表達出召委今天排的這個議題，沒藥醫當然是要等死。你的意思是如果要選擇這個藥、如果只想選這個藥，沒這個藥就當然是要等死，你的意思是這樣嘛！對不對？但是政府怎麼會讓人民搞到沒有這個藥可以用？我們還要去告訴病患，你只挑這個藥，所以你就只能等死！但是講這句話要有底氣耶！"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我們有藥能用啊！"],["劉委員建國：你講的這句話是重點，也能讓人記得很清楚，就是部長要討論一個問題嘛！有別款藥可以用，你不用，只想等這個藥，當然只有等死，你的意思是要表達這個，對不對？另外一個角度也是希望國人可以對自己國內的學名藥有一定程度的信心，對不對？應該是這樣講嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["劉委員建國：但是我讓部長看一個數據，我說講這句話很重點，大家也記得起來，但是講這個話要有底氣。2018臺灣學名血壓藥被驗出致癌物，300萬顆下架回收；2019就累計4起學名藥在安定性試驗後，主成分不符標準而回收的事件，這個都不是在部長的任內，但是在署長的任內喔！2023衛達化學製藥在三個月內出包3次，8款藥回收；同年發現臺灣製學名藥前列腺癌膠囊疑似主成分溶解不全，導致膠囊內出現白色顆粒，7月5日全部回收，這是在部長任內。以上是我簡單調出幾個例子，除此之外還有沒有，署長應該比我更清楚，你要怎麼建立國人的信心？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分有一些是廠商自己主動通報而下架，如果我們要建立對國產藥的信心，食藥署這邊還是必須要加強對後市場的稽查，包括這些藥是不是能夠符合我們的安全標準及劑量標準，我們一定要針對後市場繼續追蹤。其實以現在的機制來看，廠商的主動性也是有的，應該是可以建立信心，既然它能夠上市也就是符合PIC/S GMP的標準，問題在於後市場之後繼續製造的到底是不是仍然符合當初查驗登記的標準，我們就必須要在後市場繼續追蹤。"],["劉委員建國：我在這邊將這個過程提出來，並不是說全部都是這樣，但是也因為有這些事情，當然有的是廠商主動提出來，就像也是有下游廠商自己去檢驗出蘇丹紅而告訴供應商這個東西是有問題的，供應商還在那邊遲遲不作為，對不對？就是類似這個樣子嘛！這樣當然會讓使用者的信心降低，我們該怎麼提升？我相信很多廠家沒有這些問題，而且長久以來它的三同與原廠藥都是一致的，你們也有做宣導、你們也有相關的預算在推廣，對不對？但是顯然力道好像不是很足。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以我們今年在這方面必須要增加預算。"],["劉委員建國：可是這不是現在發生這個事情，我們現在才在做嘛！之前為什麼沒做到？這個效益這麼不好，這個有需檢討吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦！明年度食藥署在這個部分的預算一定會增加，我想委員也知道，我們的宣導費用經常在立法院被刪掉一部分，所以這個部分還要請委員協助、支持。"],["劉委員建國：過去我還在這邊的時候，幾乎沒刪你們什麼宣導費用，是哪一位委員，你可以私底下告訴我。"],["薛部長瑞元：通刪啊！"],["劉委員建國：審預算的時候我們可以好好的與他溝通一下，對不對？但是刪一次、兩次，也不會全部都拿掉。"],["薛部長瑞元：每年都會通刪一個比例。"],["劉委員建國：還好吧！也還好吧！你這麼講，還好這個會期沒有審預算，如果要審預算的話，你講這樣很危險。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為委員剛好提問，所以我講一下，就是希望委員能夠支持。"],["劉委員建國：我當然是支持啊！但是有時候也不是靠宣導就可以解決這件事情，對不對？國人對於學名藥的信心，除了你如何鼓勵這些學名藥的廠家，還要制定更完整的配套以及相關的政策，我想不只是宣導啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦！"],["劉委員建國：我的時間到了，最後還是要提供幾個訊息，當然過去也是誠如部長所講的，航運受阻，所謂的紅海危機，以及巴拿馬運河事件等等，但是缺藥不單只是這個原因、不單只是這個原因。"],["薛部長瑞元：最近的情形是這個原因為主要的因素，不是只有臺灣，而是國際性的一個特別缺藥潮。"],["劉委員建國：剛剛應該也是王召委提的，社區藥局要成立所謂的藥品合作社，而且要與物流業者合作，這個有什麼問題嗎？為什麼要把它拿掉？"],["薛部長瑞元：事實上，因為這個牽涉比較大，像物流業者也不是歸我們管轄，藥局成立合作社也不是我們能夠主導的，如果要執行這樣的決議我們會有困難，所以可操之在我的我們就會先做。"],["劉委員建國：這兩項你們都完全沒辦法處理？不會這樣吧？物流業者的部分，還是可以溝通啊！還是可以……"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦！但是溝通就變成我們要找他們過來，問題是我們又不是他們的主管機關，人家也不一定會聽我們的。"],["劉委員建國：缺藥這個問題絕對是跨部會能處理的事情，對於部長剛剛的回答，讓我感覺你並不是這樣作為的人，這樣講有問題耶！不是這樣啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：這要讓食藥署能夠去執行，因為決議的執行都是有時間性的……"],["劉委員建國：你們對外講只有9項藥品，對不對？其實不只嘛！其實不只嘛！社區藥局連這9項通通都沒有啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：社區藥局的缺藥不是真正的缺藥，它是剛好沒藥啦！一個可能是它沒有採購、另外一個是剛好斷藥，這是個別的狀況。"],["劉委員建國：它沒有採購，剛好是斷藥，但是它向上游廠商、藥廠都訂不到這些貨的情況之下，社區藥局……"],["薛部長瑞元：所以它要通報，我們可以幫它協調、我們可以去調度，現在的問題是……"],["劉委員建國：社區藥局通通沒有通報？"],["薛部長瑞元：很多都沒有通報啊！沒有通報過來，我們怎麼會知道。"],["劉委員建國：很多都沒有通報表示也是有通報的嘛！很多都沒有通報，畢竟還是有通報的吧！"],["薛部長瑞元：有通報的我們都有處理了，沒有通報的我們就無從得知啊！"],["劉委員建國：為什麼有的沒藥卻不通報？"],["薛部長瑞元：我不知道，它就……"],["劉委員建國：部長，你不能說不知道，可能你不知道，但是署長應該會知道。"],["薛部長瑞元：它不通報，我們要怎麼去押它？"],["劉委員建國：不是要你去押它，而是為什麼有的會向你們通報、有的卻不會向你們通報？是什麼問題？我們在管理整個藥品供應無虞的情況之下……"],["薛部長瑞元：有一些是自己可以處理。"],["劉委員建國：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：碰到了就自己在業界之間互相調貨，大部分都是這樣處理的，少部分就是沒有，但是它就真的不通報，我也不知道為什麼。"],["劉委員建國：署長也不知道為什麼？你們通通不知道為什麼，我們也就不知道為什麼啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：但是媒體知道啊！很奇怪就是這樣子！媒體知道哪一個藥是缺的，還說什麼社區藥局沒有，但我們就是沒有接收到通報。"],["劉委員建國：目前為止，有一些比較特殊的用藥，還是這些藥源基本上是病患特別需要使用的，可能會因為譬如紅海事件或一些緊急的事件，我們自己像農業那樣建立冷鏈系統，可以妥善地把這些藥……"],["薛部長瑞元：剛剛委員講的那一類的藥，大部分都是因為藥廠來通報，所以我們就會緊急進行專案採購、專案輸入，或是專案製造，如果國內自己能夠製造，所以這個部分都有處理的機制。現在有一些是個別的，像是社區藥局自己沒有備這個藥，結果人家拿處方箋來領藥，它調劑時就沒有這個藥，這個時候有幾種解決的方式，第一個是業界之間互相調藥、第二個就是請病人把處方箋拿回原來的醫療院所，看是要改處方或是就在醫療院所調劑；另外，除此之外的case，為什麼它不通報，我就不知道了。"],["劉委員建國：因為時間到了，我這邊有幾點具體建議就以書面給部長及署長做為參考，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：但我對於部長剛才的說明還是有點不太能夠理解，你講的第二點，社區藥局沒有再回到原來的醫院，豈不是又會造成醫院相關的排擠情況再度發生。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我們並不希望是這樣。"],["劉委員建國：我們就在做這樣的分流了，怎麼還讓社區這邊領不到藥，又要再回到原來的醫院，顯然制度上是有問題的啊！好啦！謝謝召委、謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的質詢。","接下來請徐委員欣瑩、徐委員欣瑩、徐委員欣瑩不在。","張委員嘉郡、張委員嘉郡、張委員嘉郡不在。","鄭委員正鈐、鄭委員正鈐、鄭委員正鈐不在。","我們請陳瑩委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-4","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","林德福","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","李彥秀","林淑芬","黃健豪","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","林憶君","劉建國","陳瑩","楊曜","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健康保險署、食品藥物管理署就「健保藥價調整，藥廠停產慢性病用\n藥之因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.92471875,"end":5.785343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.122843750000001,"end":6.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.96221875,"end":8.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.278468750000002,"end":11.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.77596875,"end":12.855968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.26096875,"end":14.087843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.087843750000001,"end":14.189093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.189093750000001,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.222843750000003,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.560343750000001,"end":14.610968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.47159375,"end":15.910343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.41221875,"end":21.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.71096875,"end":24.870968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.59659375,"end":25.832843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.42346875,"end":26.828468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.18284375,"end":27.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.92534375,"end":32.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.970968750000004,"end":34.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.77659375,"end":37.088468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.54409375,"end":38.337218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.60721875,"end":40.041593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.59846875,"end":41.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.16784375,"end":45.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.68596875,"end":48.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.96846875,"end":49.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.85846875,"end":51.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00",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對不對所以我們現在要做這個事情就是避免小朋友去吃到這個蘇丹農四處三道的添加物嘛因為他會引起這個致癌的這個成分的存在嘛 對不對那這個事情這個案過了他會延伸什麼問題你有思考過嗎"},{"start":55.096,"end":77.002,"text":"就像前幾天在講,網友提那個所謂的零食嘛,然後火鍋店的壓血。現在這種天氣,台灣的餐飲業者火鍋店所佔的比例多高?那火鍋店的使用者,小朋友會不會去?也一定會去嘛。要不要處理?"},{"start":80.378,"end":96.719,"text":"小朋友的事情我們要特別重視但台灣論的一個消費者的事情我們更加重視衛生部的官員我剛剛看到是吃了很大塊的雞排雞腿飯那雞腿有沒有外加辣椒粉要不要進"},{"start":98.979,"end":123.42,"text":"所以跟我們報告這一個辣椒粉的問題之所以不好解決就原因就在這對所以第一天禮拜四我就特別講說其實食安風暴像這種添加物它不是單一的成品它不像以前的毒奶粉對不對它是一個添加物你們要非常慎重嚴謹的積極的甚至也就是說阻絕中國"},{"start":128.747,"end":138.116,"text":"進到臺灣的這些東西,就是要馬上當機立斷,不能再有機會委員,這個問題就是這樣,我們現在目前的辣椒粉,都是大部分的仰賴進口,那中國大陸那邊有80%,佔80%,現在這些違規的是50%"},{"start":150.027,"end":158.573,"text":"所以你一下子通通禁的話我們會沒有辣的可以吃啦對國人的飲食習慣來講還是會有一個影響不是這樣啦部長80%是全部仰賴中國進口出的問題是50%"},{"start":168.259,"end":183.012,"text":"這個在巴士裡面的保險措施出的問題就已經佔了一半了嘛一百趴來講就佔了一半嘛但是出那個你也是要讓他進來啦 不能看到中間他進不進去大概就不太好的一個管制措施"},{"start":184.313,"end":203.885,"text":"所以你們要更加嚴謹的看怎麼去做相關的意義,什麼地方該禁你就該禁嘛對不對,包含因為前幾天有些縣市是針對營養午餐就已經禁了嘛,那有些縣市是還沒有嘛,那裡是禁表尊重嘛,不對啊,不對啊,那就不對嘛,那今天王昭偉提出來這個案,就是全國通用了嘛"},{"start":206.11,"end":223.192,"text":"我要表達的就是說可能有些事情你要事先的就去展現該怎麼做就怎麼做了啦啊這個時間會很長嗎就看可能就食品主要辛苦一點啊積極的看怎麼去做相關的這樣的一個查緝比對嘛檢驗嘛"},{"start":225.876,"end":238.114,"text":"對一些可能會發生的還是比喻比較高的地方可能你們就依序的就必須直接的去對外做公告、對外做表示這可能比較危險、這比較高風險我們就先處理掉先檢視不可以"},{"start":241.397,"end":261.341,"text":"現在往下追查就是這個原則,委員說的如果他的下游廠商產品量是大的,那我們就要先處理部長跟署長都沒有經歷過過去的那個神風暴這不會是有這行東西發生,這嚴重,後來會再對一行來會再對一行來,一直來,會死就對了你不要把這個"},{"start":269.303,"end":275.186,"text":"我聽你們感到非常憂心甚至也很擔心真的啦因為剛來的時候看到林委員在諮詢其他那些追查的方向"},{"start":292.661,"end":313.192,"text":"是沒有問題的喔?那一個部分的話其實是有一個困難點是說我們如果要個別的公司去做查、積查而且這個要把它是不是有相關的這些子公司或分公司要一起查出來我們就變成經濟部的商業司啊"},{"start":319.034,"end":330.579,"text":"但是遇到中大食安的事情基本上就是跨部會的一個合作嘛這基本上是這樣嘛因為我不希望它持續的流竄持續的被使用嘛"},{"start":330.939,"end":355.054,"text":"但是這種牽連的情形的話可能是有一些困難不過我們會努力來跟外部會來做一些協調我就是建議部長提醒部長當然署長對這件事情的因應可能要更有智慧更積極的然後更展現一些魄力這樣才會把這個風暴快速解決掉今天的主題還是這個就缺藥問題"},{"start":356.636,"end":383.767,"text":"那剛剛也有委員特別問部長嘛在議會的時候那部長有用這個說法嘛我是覺得部長在講一些話是蠻重點的蠻經典的那這個會讓人家特別記憶清楚為啥不是一件好事啊因為若堅持用原廠藥只能等死嘛就部長的講法嘛對不對但是但是他在前面如果再配一句話就會表達今天召委排的這個議題嘛"},{"start":385.063,"end":390.844,"text":"政府怎麼會讓人民搞到沒有這個藥可以來用,然後我們要去跟病患講說,你就要跟病患講,所以你只有丹氏。"},{"start":410.489,"end":418.173,"text":"這句話不是,但這句話有底氣的,不是,對我知道啦,我現在齁,這句話你講到是一個重點嘛齁,也能讓人記得很清楚,就是部長你要討論一個問題嘛,有八款藥好用你不用,你自己要丟這個藥,當然你只有丟四嘛,你藝術是要表達這樣嘛對不對,另外一個角度也是希望"},{"start":432.161,"end":460.069,"text":"國人可以對自己的國內的這些學民藥有一定程度的信心嘛對不對應該是這樣講嘛但是我看我讓部長看一個數據我說講這句話很重點大家記得起來但是這個講話也有底氣嘛2018台灣學民血壓藥被驗出致癌物300萬顆下架回收19就累積四起學民藥在安定性試驗後組成分不符標準而回收事件這個都不是在部長的論內啦但是在署長的論內喔"},{"start":462.915,"end":481.83,"text":"2023未達化學資料在三個月內出發三次八款藥回收同年發現台灣這個學名藥前列腺癌的這個膠囊已是組成混融解不全導致囊內的出現白色顆粒7月5號宣布回收這是在部長任內"},{"start":484.011,"end":510.928,"text":"這是我簡單調出幾個啦齁 這中間還有沒有 署長應該比我更清楚嘛好 那你要怎麼建立國人對這個信心這個部分有一些是廠商主動他自己的來通報然後這個下架的所以我們其實是當然如果要建立國產藥的信心的話那食藥署這邊還是必須要加強啦齁那對於後市場的一個稽查"},{"start":511.688,"end":533.355,"text":"包括說那是不是都能夠這一些藥都一直符合能夠符合我們的安全標準跟它的這個劑量也有標準這個我們後市場一定要繼續來做追蹤但是其實以現在的機制來看的話那廠商的他的主動性也是有的"},{"start":534.395,"end":562.224,"text":"所以這可以建立信心嗎?因為它只能夠上市的時候已經都符合PIX GMP的標準了那就是後市場以後繼續再製造到底是不是仍然符合當初做這個查案登記的這個標準這個我們必須要去後市場我把這個過程這件事情提出來我並不是講說全部都是這個樣子"},{"start":562.884,"end":591.944,"text":"但是也因為有這些事情當然有的是長商主動提出來就像蘇丹農也有像有廠商自己去檢驗發現有問題把供應商講說你這個東西是有問題的那供應商還在那邊遲遲不作為對不對類似也類似這個樣子嘛那這樣當然就會讓使用者的信心會降低嘛那我們怎麼提升我相信很多的廠家沒有這些問題而且長久以來他的山童的這樣跟原廠藥都是一致的好"},{"start":592.899,"end":610.216,"text":"我們整個 你們也有做宣導啊 你們有很多的相關的預算都有在推廣嘛 對不對對 但顯然好像力道不是很足對 所以我們今年呢 在這方面的話必須要增加這個預算但是不是現在發生這個事情我們現在才在做嗎之前為什麼會做到這個效益這麼不好 這個有需檢討吧"},{"start":613.499,"end":639.949,"text":"對啦,食藥署這邊在明年度的預算一定這部分會增加但是我想委員也知道嘛我們的宣導費用經常在立法院的話就會被殺掉一部分啦所以在這部分還要請委員來協助那能夠來支持我過去還在這邊的時候幾乎沒有去刪你們什麼宣導費用是哪一部分你可以私底下跟我講省綠算是說我們好好的跟他溝通一下"},{"start":641.959,"end":656.189,"text":"對不對?但是山可能也一次兩次也不會全部爬也全部拿掉嗎?差不多每年都會通山一個爬樹啦還好吧,你這麼講這個會期沒有在省預算"},{"start":659.071,"end":685.086,"text":"你要審慮預算的時候,你講這樣很危險因為委員剛好在問,所以我講一下,就是希望說委員能夠支持我當然是支持,但是有時候也不是只有靠宣導就可以解決這個事情,對不對?我能對這個學品藥的信心,除了你怎麼鼓勵這些學品藥的廠家然後制定更完整的配套,還有相關的一些政策我想不只是宣導,是講到這個地方,對不對?"},{"start":687.038,"end":704.846,"text":"我時間到了啦,我最後還是要提供幾個訊息啦齁,因為當然過去來講是有,這也是從部長所講的嘛,航運受阻嘛,所謂的鴻海危機嘛齁,過去還有巴拉雷嘛,運河的事件等等等,但是,但是這個缺藥不單止這個原因啦,"},{"start":707.151,"end":730.777,"text":"最近的情形是這個原因是主要的因素啦這不是只有臺灣嘛這是國際性的這種特別的一個缺藥草社區藥局要所謂的這個成立藥品合作社還有與物流藥水合作這個有什麼問題嗎為什麼要把它拿掉"},{"start":731.482,"end":736.844,"text":"不是這兩項完全你們都沒有辦法處理不會這樣吧你說物流業者還是可以溝通啊還是可以"},{"start":759.935,"end":772.598,"text":"對啦,但是這個溝通的時候,我們就必須要找人來,因為我們不是主管機關,人家不一定會聽我們的啦沒有啦,有聘,欠有聘"},{"start":773.097,"end":773.437,"text":"這個決議的執行都有時間性"},{"start":802.427,"end":809.195,"text":"因為你們對外講說只有9項這個藥品嘛對不對其實不止嘛其實是不止嘛你們說9項嘛社區藥局連這9項都沒有啊"},{"start":815.153,"end":841.927,"text":"市區藥局的缺藥不是真正的缺藥它是剛好是沒藥啦一個是他可能他沒有採購另外一個就是剛好是斷藥這個個別的狀況對阿他沒有採購阿剛好是斷藥阿他跟他的上個廠家跟這個藥廠都訂不到這些貨的情況之下那市區藥局有沒有阿所以他要通報嘛我們可以幫他來做協調嘛我們可以去調度嘛阿現在的問題就市區藥局都沒有通報"},{"start":843.167,"end":860.998,"text":"很多都沒有通報阿 很多都沒有通報也代表是有通報嗎?很多都沒有通報畢竟還是有通報嗎?有通報我們都有處理了沒有通報的我們就無從知道阿為什麼會有的藥都沒有通報?我不知道阿 他就通報媒體阿你可能不知道 署長應該會知道"},{"start":867.061,"end":891.252,"text":"不是你把他騙,是怎麼有的會去跟你們通報,有的不會跟你們通報,是什麼問題?我們在管理這整個藥品的供應無虞情況之下。一點點說明,有一些他自己是可以處理的,碰到他自己在業界之間互相調貨,大部分都是這樣處理掉,少部分的話就是沒有,但是他就不通報,我真的也不知道為什麼。市長也不知道為什麼?"},{"start":895.714,"end":895.894,"text":"目前為止"},{"start":917.562,"end":935.047,"text":"有些比較特殊的用藥還是說他這些藥源基本上是病患特別需要使用的然後我們也會因為像鴻海的這種事件嘛對不對還是一些一些緊急事件我們自己向農業去建立這種冷鏈的系統"},{"start":935.947,"end":962.834,"text":"然後把這些藥可以妥善的...剛剛委員講的這一類的藥的話因為他會通報大部分都是因為藥廠來通報所以我們就會緊急來開始做專案的採購專案的輸入或專案的製造如果國內自己能夠製造所以這個部分的話都有處理的機制那現在是有一些是個別的像社區藥局這樣他自己沒有備這個藥"},{"start":964.884,"end":975.953,"text":"那這個部分結果人家拿處房間來了那他就要調劑嘛啊都沒有這個藥沒有這個藥的時候有幾種解決的方式第一個就是業界之間互相去調藥"},{"start":976.943,"end":995.125,"text":"第二種情形就是請病人把處方錢拿回去原來的醫療院所看是要改處方還是說就在醫療院所去做調劑另外除此之外的case為什麼他就不通報我就不知道了"},{"start":996.636,"end":1024.439,"text":"好 時間到了我這邊有一些具體的建議我先順便給部長跟署長做參考啦好不好但是我覺得部長剛剛這種說明還是有點不太能夠理解齁你現在講到第二點在社區疫情裡面有然後再回到原有的醫院那不是去到原有醫院又造成排擠的相關的一些情況又會發生所以我們不希望是這樣對嘛 那變於我們就在做這樣的一個分歧的怎麼還讓社區的這邊領不到藥然後又要再回到原有的醫院"},{"start":1024.991,"end":1025.031,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員"}]}},{"id":"149591","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149591","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe7d5b31d754e60fb43ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a680d52c9929101f6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:42:16 - 12:50:54","影片長度":"00:08:38","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":518,"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:50:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T12:42:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1172,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時42分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請王美花部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我再就教剛剛羅智強委員的問題。你剛剛講的是你跟蔡英文總統、跟賴清德總統當選人這邊討論過電價調漲等等，但到最後突然漏口說這些都是總統這邊反正會做全面評估跟考量。"],["王部長美花：我的意思是指現在是蔡總統在……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，執政。"],["王部長美花：執政，是蔡總統的任內。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以對於電價調漲，蔡總統這邊會批准是不是？"],["王部長美花：對於大的方向，包括台電的財務狀況、電價狀況、國際情形等，我們都有向長官報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：以前都推託電價調漲是電價審議委會綜合評估判斷、考量專業決定，結果現在發現原來不是啊！原來真相就是長官要調就調，長官不調就不調啊！"],["王部長美花：不是、不是，大的方向……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為你剛剛已經漏口啦！"],["王部長美花：大的方向是由審議委員會決定。"],["洪委員孟楷：大的方向是這樣沒有錯，但我現在就是說每次都推說3月的時候電價審議委員會開會討論、專業評估判斷，你們沒辦法過問；9月電價審議委員會凍漲的時候是專業考量，現在不凍漲、要漲了也是專業考量。但不是嘛！你剛才突然講的，原來是漏口了，520前、要下臺前，大家誠實了，這次可以直接講實話了，就是看長官嘛！所以去年為什麼連幾漲、連幾漲，你們凍漲是因為選舉要到了，現在選舉選完了、沒有選票壓力了，趕快趁現在補回來，是不是這樣？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，我在報告裡也有講，我們優先爭取政府補貼，跟政府爭取補貼當然要向長官報告這個狀況、台電的情形，所以當然要跟長官報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以就不是電價審議委員會可以獨立、專業評估判斷嘛！還是有很多執政黨壓力，或說執政黨的push嘛！如果補助比較多，就可以少漲嘛！是不是？"],["王部長美花：當然啊！所以我們還是優先希望增加政府的補貼，而這一定要長官支持。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，感謝你講實話啦！感謝你大白話，在520前新舊內閣交替的時候……"],["王部長美花：電價漲價當然是審議會決定的。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席愈來愈希望你可以多講一些實話，讓國人看得更清楚。","再來請教，今天你們的報告叫做「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」。看起來2024年（今年）電價調漲應該是漲定了嘛！是不是？"],["王部長美花：就目前的狀況，要補貼與電價調漲才能讓台電的財務平整。"],["洪委員孟楷：既然漲定了，今年的配套措施在哪裡？"],["王部長美花：我們在這裡面有提到，包括……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有啊！"],["王部長美花：有，包括……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有啊！只有……"],["王部長美花：疫後條例大帶小這些補貼……"],["洪委員孟楷：來來來！部長，本席看得非常清楚，在這邊只回顧歷史啊！回顧什麼歷史？回顧2022年、2023年電價調漲的配套，你所謂的照顧民生、穩定物價以及兼顧產業，說實在話都講得非常籠統啦！而且重點在於政府能做的已經做了，要漲還是百般無奈。但是2024年隻字未提啊！換言之，如果方向是真的已經漲定了，我覺得召委今天開這個專案報告真的非常好啊！重點就是我們想要知道2024年如果真的漲定了，你也都對外面媒體放話，大家都覺得就是要漲了、海嘯要來了、民生物價要調漲了、壓力會變得更大、成本會增加，經濟部或相關部會到底有什麼作為？今天都看不到啊！今天看不到！"],["王部長美花：不能這樣講，我在報告裡提到，政府預算在補貼產業……"],["洪委員孟楷：你沒有任何實質作為，我們今天要看的……"],["王部長美花：有，就是我們的補貼讓大家可以購買節能產品。"],["洪委員孟楷：你的結語是什麼？我真的有看到，你的結語是如果最後會漲，政府還會依照反映成本、照顧民生、穩定物價、節能減碳、使用者付費原則辦理，所以你今天通篇7頁報告的最後結論就是這個啊！2024年漲價，你會告訴全國人民我們現在的方案定了沒有？我不知道。我們有沒有措施？不知道。我們有沒有什麼補貼？不知道。有沒有分級距？不知道。到底是不是用量少的人少漲一點、用量多的人多漲一點，以及後續的補助方案？不知道。但是告訴大家啦！反映成本、照顧民生、穩定物價、節能減碳、使用者付費，這就是你的結論嘛！"],["王部長美花：所以我們的報告就是讓大家了解過往我們在調漲電價的時候，本來就都有這些大原則，讓大家可以清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：那不就又是照本宣科、又是……"],["王部長美花：沒有照本宣科啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：又是跟以往一模一樣，所以這個就是……"],["王部長美花：我們推動大家來購買節能減碳設備，這不都是對的方向嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你這樣講，就好比綠燈要過馬路，紅燈不要過馬路，這是交通規則，就是告訴大家只要大家遵守這個規則，就可以減少交通事故。"],["王部長美花：沒有啊！所以我們做了很多……"],["洪委員孟楷：只要大家購買節能減碳物品，就可以減少用電，說實在的，這不是廢話嗎？"],["王部長美花：可是這不是有效的嗎？而且購買高效能產品以後，用電也確實會減下來。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我今天會花這麼多時間，其實討論的只有一個重點，就是經濟部到底準備好了沒，如果今年4月就像你講的……我今天真的準備了很多資料，但我都不想講。例如你提到原物料上漲是因為俄烏戰爭、原物料上漲，所以影響燃煤價格、燃氣價格等等，但是其實我們也查到資料，燃氣從去年初就已經降到跟戰前差不多的原物料價格了嘛！"],["王部長美花：沒有，現在還是……"],["洪委員孟楷：為什麼國際上的市場價格已經調回來了，你們還是一直推託，指稱燃氣價格、燃煤價格高漲，因此要調漲，這些其實都是國人想要探究的重點。之前經濟委員會是不是也要過燃煤、燃氣的相關採購合約，到底採購多少錢？但這些也都是機密，沒辦法提供給民意代表。"],["王部長美花：在可以公開的部分，我們可以提供。可以提供，沒有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：「可以公開的部分」就代表隱藏非常多資訊嘛！"],["王部長美花：不會，我們可以公開。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在講的是，如果今年4月真的要調漲電價，經濟部準備好了沒、後續配套措施出來沒？到底有沒有討論？"],["王部長美花：這些我們都會做，等審議會做了決定之後，這裡面的相關部分我們都會考量。但因為現在電價調整方式一定是由審議會做決定，所以在決定沒有出來之前，沒有辦法再跟大家講細節。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席從開始到現在只想講的是民進黨政府既然已經確定方向就是一定要調漲電價，那真的該做準備就要做準備。還有最重要的是電價為什麼跟其他有關？譬如說接下來我們要問：是水費也要漲嗎？瓦斯費也要漲嗎？電價為什麼那麼重要？就是因為它是全部產業中最重要的核心，而且不管是民生、不管是一般老百姓，電價一漲，人民有感，而且那種感受是帶動整個物價通膨、上漲最主要的元凶，牽一髮而動全身，這些都是經濟部不可迴避的問題，不是等到520變成……我不知道您會不會離開，但不是您可能拍拍屁股離開之後就了事、不當一個責任或不當自己的事。國人要看到的是我們國家是真正能拿出辦法的政府，而不是今天來……"],["王部長美花：沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：召委排了這場專案報告，我們都很重視，做了很多功課，但是對於今天送來這樣的資料，說實在話，國人看到只會覺得很失望。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。部長剛剛有一句話提到授權3%漲電價，這句話可能要斟酌，沒有人會授權。","今天之所以會排定這樣的議程，主要就是因為人民真的很辛苦，通膨讓人民非常辛苦，薪水又沒有漲，在這個階段整個配套措施未定。還好審議委員會也還沒做出決定，所以我們透過這樣的討論也讓政府部門可以再好好研討，希望能夠以照顧民生、穩定物價為基礎，這非常重要。","登記發言委員除不在場之外，其餘都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。王美惠委員、劉建國委員、牛煦庭委員所提書面質詢列入公報、刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra 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麻煩請王美花部長我們請王部長好 委員好部長是"},{"start":19.502,"end":39.917,"text":"我在就較剛羅志強委員的問題喔您剛剛講是說跟蔡英文總統跟賴金德總統當選這邊有討論過電價調漲等等的那你剛剛到最後突然間漏口講說這都是總統這邊反而會做一個全面的評估我的意思是說現在是蔡總統在執政是蔡總統的任內那所以說電價調漲蔡總統這邊會批准是不是"},{"start":43.732,"end":45.673,"text":"那你這樣子以前都把推脫說電價調漲是電價審議委員會綜合評估判斷考量專業結果現在原來不是啊"},{"start":62.398,"end":67.521,"text":"原來真相就是說這長官要調就調,長官不調就不調啊大的方向 因為你剛已經漏口啦大的方向齁大的方向沒有錯 但是我現在說的就是每一次都推給說哇3月的時候電價審議委員會委員會開會討論專業評估判斷我們沒有辦法去那個過問9月的時候電價審議委員會動漲的時候就是專業考量現在不動漲要漲的也是專業考量不是嘛"},{"start":92.136,"end":97.121,"text":"你剛剛突然講的原來露口了520前要下台前大家誠實了"},{"start":99.028,"end":107.033,"text":"就是可以直接講實話了就是長官嘛所以去年為什麼連級長連級長我們動長是因為選舉要到了現在酸計酸料啊選票沒壓力了趕快趁現在補回來各位報告因為我報告也有講我們優先要爭取政府補貼我跟政府補貼我當然要跟長官報告說這個狀況台電的情形那這個當然要跟長官報告所以這不是電價審議委員會他可以獨立專業來評估判斷嗎"},{"start":125.846,"end":133.509,"text":"還是有很多的執政黨的壓力或說執政黨的一個push嗎?如果說今天有補助比較多就可以減少比較少漲嗎?是不是?那當然啦所以我們優先還是希望來增加政府的補貼部長感謝你講實話啦我們一定要長官支持大白話齁在520前這個"},{"start":144.813,"end":169.145,"text":"新舊內閣交替的時候本席越來越希望是說可以多講一些實話讓國人更看得清楚來再來請教今天我們的這一個報告叫做條漲對於產業民生衝擊的研擬配套措施那看起來2024年今年電價條漲應該是漲定了嘛"},{"start":171.738,"end":175.081,"text":"是不是?就目前的狀況補貼電價的調漲才能夠讓台電的財務平正那漲定了那我們今年的配套措施在哪裡?"},{"start":182.103,"end":184.965,"text":"這裡面我們有提到齁我們包括有我們包括就是說你只有來來來部長部長來部長本席看得非常清楚喔你這邊只有回顧歷史啊回顧歷史回顧什麼歷史回顧2022年2023年電價調漲的配套你所謂的照顧民生穩定物價以及兼顧產業但是說實在話"},{"start":207.332,"end":218.322,"text":"都是講得非常的籠統啦而且重點就在於是說政府能做的已經做了但是要漲還是百般無奈啦但是2024年啊之字未提啊"},{"start":219.646,"end":242.825,"text":"所以換言之我們如果說現在如果說方向真的已經長定了我覺得今天召委開這個專案報告非常的好啊就重點就是說我們想要知道2024年如果說真的長定了你外面的媒體都已經放話大家都覺得是說就是要漲了海嘯要來了民生物價要調漲了壓力會變更大了成本會增加了我們經濟部或相關部會到底有什麼作為"},{"start":243.886,"end":256.195,"text":"第一個我的報告不能這樣講我報告裡面有提到政府的預算在補貼產業你沒有任何的實質的作為所以我們的補貼讓大家可以購買節能的部分你的結語我真的有看到你的結語是如果說最後會漲啦政府還會依照反應成本照顧民生穩定物價節能減碳使用者付費原則辦理"},{"start":272.355,"end":297.216,"text":"所以你通篇今天7月的報告最後結論就是這個你2024年漲價會告訴全國人民說我們現在方案訂了沒有我不知道我們有沒有措施不知道我們有沒有什麼補貼不知道我們有沒有分級劇不知道到底是用戶少用量少的人少漲一點用量多的人多漲一點我們後續的補助方案不知道但是告訴大家啦"},{"start":298.274,"end":326.307,"text":"反映成本、照顧民生、穩定物價、節能減碳使用者付費這就是你的結論嗎?我們的報告就是讓大家在過往我們在調漲電價的時候本來就都有這些大原則讓大家可以清楚那不就又是照本宣科又是沒有照本宣科啊又是跟以往一模一樣我們推大家來購買節能減碳的設備這個不是都是對的方向嗎?部長你這樣講那就跟過馬路要"},{"start":327.347,"end":327.367,"text":"拜訪議員．"},{"start":341.903,"end":343.904,"text":"國人跟本席 我想我今天會花那麼多時間其實我討論只有一個重點我們重點就是說經濟部到底準備好了沒"},{"start":362.154,"end":382.4,"text":"如果說今年4月就像你講的我今天真的很多東西我準備很多資料我都不想講譬如說大家有講是說你的原物料上漲因為二污戰爭所以原物料上漲所以藍媒的這個價格燃氣的價格等等的但是其實我們也查到資料燃氣從去年初就已經降到跟戰前差不多的一個原物料價格了嗎"},{"start":383.3,"end":394.827,"text":"為什麼國際上的一個市場價格已經有調回來了但是我們還是一直推脫是說藍企業價格藍媒價格高漲也因此我們要調漲這一些其實都是國人想要去探究的重點那"},{"start":395.942,"end":414.069,"text":"之前經濟委員會是不是也有要過說我們到底我們藍媒藍企的這個相關採購合約到底採購多少錢但是這些也都是機密也都沒有辦法給提供給我們的媒體代表可以公開的部分就是有隱藏非常多的一個資訊我現在講的是說到底我們如果說今年4月真的要調漲電價我們準備好了沒後續的配套措施出來沒"},{"start":422.807,"end":423.828,"text":"從開始到現在只想講的是說既然民進黨政府已經確定的方向就一定要調漲電價"},{"start":450.472,"end":479.912,"text":"那真的該做準備要做準備那還有最重要的是電價為什麼跟其他比如說接下來我們要問是水費也要漲嗎瓦斯費也要漲嗎還有最重要電價為什麼那麼重要就是因為它是全部產業最重要的一個核心而且不管是民生不管是一般的老百姓電價一漲人民有感而且那個感受是帶動整個物價通膨上漲最主要的元兇這是簽一法而動全身"},{"start":480.912,"end":499.402,"text":"這些都是經濟部不可迴避的問題不是說等到520變成我不知道你會不會離開但是不是說你之後有可能離開之後就拍在屁股了是不當一個責任或是不當自己的事情我覺得國人要看到的是我們的國家是能夠拿出真正辦法的一個政府而不是今天來"},{"start":501.877,"end":501.897,"text":"好﹗"}]}},{"id":"149590","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149590","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe974f7e64a21bf1813ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a6cc2b0f4ec76c4ee15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:35:44 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對不對"},{"start":242.528,"end":267.125,"text":"所以我們一直都非常謹慎在處理這個國家問題那我問你齁因為我在質詢陳建仁院長的時候問過NCC的人士我說NCC人士是重大的一個人事案齁我問他會不會跟賴清德總統當選人商量他說會那我想請問你電價算不算重大的一個事件電價算是重大事件那你會不會跟新政府尊重新政府跟賴清德當選人溝通"},{"start":268.7,"end":297.217,"text":"這個我們政府之間有相關的這個部分那因為他本來也是我們的副總統那我想問賴清德總統當選人是同意還是不同意目前都是蔡總統在執政我說你跟他溝通他的意見是親向是同意還是不同意這個部分在內部的討論我想這個總統在賦權我講的是賴總統當選因為我們陳院長講說重大政策要跟他商量啊你有沒有跟他商量"},{"start":298.257,"end":323.7,"text":"你剛才有商量啊但是商量總有一個傾向嘛他是贊成還是不贊成大的原則就是說目前的台電的狀況我在請教你你也對電價的歷史很了解嘛這個2008年那時候馬總統有點雙漲嘛可是電價的調漲累積不是他上任才開始嘛是在前任的總統開始可是馬總統什麼時候調漲?看守政府那時候有沒有調漲?"},{"start":326.907,"end":347.152,"text":"我講的是2008那一次2016那個都是前期啊那我要現在講就是說這些電價的調漲我覺得你們還是要跟賴清德總統當選人講清楚他是希望你們先幫他拆掉炸彈呢還是他就是非常認同你們現在4月來調漲電價"},{"start":348.712,"end":359.439,"text":"你等一個月讓新政府來漲電價讓他來去面對這個民意的檢驗不是更符合看守政府的職份嗎?我們政府之間都會有內部的討論以上謝謝你"}]}},{"id":"149589","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149589","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbef87b1305632b3a98afe835f95dd6e817f8ba9b0039caa7a6a41d5c05e5ec44ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:31:09 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12:38:32","影片長度":"00:07:23","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":443,"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:38:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T12:31:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":997,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時31分）主席，麻煩請唐鳳部長。"],["主席：請唐部長。"],["唐部長鳳：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好，部長，一月初的時候，本席很訝異看到有平面媒體連兩天的報導，都對數發部和您個人有很多的批評，尤其不管是我們講的政治氛圍，很多人都會說唐鳳部長這個位置是不是坐得不太穩了。不過本席對於你們這些官派到底留不留沒有那麼多興趣，我比較在乎的是一天和尚敲一天鐘，為人民服務，我覺得這比較重要。"],["唐部長鳳：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：我今天早上看到你有接受媒體報導還是詢問，講說數發部的防詐有很多肯定，會不會覺得自己活在平行時空，跟人民的距離太遠啦？"],["唐部長鳳：那個是在講我們主管的電商等等的作為。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在想請教一下，你知道去年的詐騙數跟詐騙量是創新高嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：總體大概有增長大概百分之二、三十。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以說總體的增長已經到了歷年來最高，不管是財損數或是案件數，已經有那麼多的案件都持續升高的情況下，你說有很多肯定，你的立基點來源是哪裡？"],["唐部長鳳：就是我們所主管的電商……"],["洪委員孟楷：有做民調嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：電商的部分已經連續5個月沒有出現在165的高風險賣場。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有民調？人民的感受，還是說你的立基點在哪裡？還是說就是在同溫層裡面，大家都說哇！部長好棒棒？"],["唐部長鳳：我們是在用165的通報訊息，那是一個客觀的數據，就是我們主管的電商或遊戲點數等都大幅下降，甚至高風險賣場是歸零。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，我們現在講的是說「很多肯定」，我想要問的是肯定是別人給你的，還是你自己評估給自己的？"],["唐部長鳳：我在講的是參加我們聯防的這些……"],["洪委員孟楷：國人對於數發部，我就說了，從過去到現在我們一直強調，每次提到數發部，這一點我們不想講，但是國人每次提到數發部，你要不要問問看民間，或者問一下不是你同溫層的朋友，問一下一般的老百姓？數發部一年多將近兩年的時間了，你對於數發部最有感的政策是哪一個？你知道數發部過去、最近推的前十大的政策是什麼？你知道數發部最近做了什麼事情？要不要去做一下？"],["唐部長鳳：現在很多會說111簡訊……"],["洪委員孟楷：不要再自我感覺良好了，要自己真的好好離開辦公室走入民間，每一個政務官都不是神，每一個政務官不是自己在位那一天就高高在上，然後只想聽自己想要聽的，完全不管人民的心聲，不管人民的感受，我覺得這才是今天……部長，本席為什麼今天一定要來跟您做一個質詢，當面來跟你提醒，就是因為我認為現在民進黨政府的官員最嚴重的事情，每一個人都活在自己的平行時空裡，好像跟一般老百姓是脫節的。當你看到今天新聞出來說，大家對數發部打詐很多肯定的時候，你覺得人民心裡的感受是什麼？"],["唐部長鳳：在說的是電商防詐。"],["洪委員孟楷：當詐騙的案件數越來越高，詐騙金額越來越多，你生活周遭有沒有朋友被詐騙？"],["唐部長鳳：我可不可以先回應委員稍早的一些問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：你的生活周遭有沒有朋友被詐騙？"],["唐部長鳳：當然我們收到詐騙訊息是都有收到。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以本席想要強調的就是，不要自我感覺良好，我覺得這一點才是最重要的事情。"],["唐部長鳳：我們有做……"],["洪委員孟楷：這一點才是真真正正讓國人覺得沒有辦法接受，我說實在話，你說數發部今天編列預算3,000萬元要出國出差，3,000萬元對於整體的預算來講不高，但為什麼人民對於數發部要出國出差，會完全用焦點、完全在鎖定看待？就是因為如果你拿不出一個相當的成績，或拿不出一個具體的成績，你們還編列那麼多預算，當然人家會有這種相對剝奪感啊！"],["唐部長鳳：委員剛剛問我們有沒有做有統計代表性的民調，我們現在事實上正在做。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，拿出來，什麼時候會做出來？"],["唐部長鳳：我們現在發了大概20萬則簡訊出去，現在陸續回收大概一千多份，一個月之內給委員一個書面報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：你看二十多萬則才回收一千多份。"],["唐部長鳳：簡訊要大家看到點開……"],["洪委員孟楷：光這個事情我就直覺認為，人民對於簡訊都不敢點開了，部長自己也講了嘛！二十多萬則明明是我們官方發出的，二十多萬則才回收一千多則，你都好意思拿出來講，我都不好意思說了。"],["唐部長鳳：目前陸續在回收。"],["洪委員孟楷：回收率多少？有沒有算過？"],["唐部長鳳：就目前到現在一千多則。"],["洪委員孟楷：代表國人對於這種莫名簡訊、來路不明的簡訊都不敢點開了，結果部長居然洋洋自喜沾沾自喜覺得這個是一個政績。部長，本席真的很希望，因為數位發展部是當初我們也期待的部會，但是快兩年的時間，如果說這樣的話，我真的對於數位發展部，以及對您的去留感到非常的擔憂。部長，最後一分鐘的時間，我只簡單請教一個問題，我之前有看過北市警採購相關的密錄器配中國電線，數發部說零組件各單位自行評估，這是2023年……"],["唐部長鳳：它算不算核心元件這部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，那我想請教，到底說密錄器這個部分，因為真的很多產品其實都是Made in China，這毋庸置疑，因為畢竟很多時候會有。那有些採購的時候，我們那時候也有討論過，說有資安疑慮的譬如說螢幕顯示器，如果它真的是Made in China，那到底會不會？如果說它沒有通訊的功能……"],["唐部長鳳：對，它斷網可以使用。"],["洪委員孟楷：斷網可以使用？"],["唐部長鳳：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那它到底會不會有資安疑慮？"],["唐部長鳳：就是在斷網情況下使用的話，可以阻絕大部分的攻擊，但我們還是希望他儘快地汰換。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，那我想請教，有一些電子產品，不要講說螢幕部分，有些電子產品根本沒有連接網路的設備，沒有通訊的設備，沒有通訊的功能，那個東西會不會有資安疑慮？"],["唐部長鳳：如果它是比方說會透過USB附著在電腦上等等，那個就有額外的可能性，但如果是完全斷網使用的話，比較不會從外面被攻擊。"],["主席：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在講就是，如果說這個產品，譬如說像密錄器錄影的部分，它是只有錄影，沒有任何連接的功能，沒有任何的傳輸的功能，會不會有資安疑慮？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["唐部長鳳：應該是如果是臺灣的廠牌，然後我們也能夠audit那個廠牌，他所使用的這些您剛剛說的PRC零組件的狀況，這個部分我們要去看到底有沒有自己接上通訊功能的可能性，這是個案來判斷。"],["洪委員孟楷：那你們現在建議是什麼？要用不用？"],["唐部長鳳：我們現在建議要先確定它不會被境外敵對勢力實質控制。"],["主席：好，謝謝，請數位部再跟洪委員來做說明，謝謝。"],["唐部長鳳：我們再書面說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，真的不要每次委員質詢只想要拖過時間，想要頭過身就過。"],["唐部長鳳：我沒有拖延時間。"],["洪委員孟楷：接受人民的請願。"],["唐部長鳳：我都是實問實答。"],["洪委員孟楷：接受人民的聲音，瞭解地方的需求。"],["唐部長鳳：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：我覺得這才是數發部現在應該要做的事情。"],["唐部長鳳：完全同意。"],["主席：請數位部跟洪委員說明清楚，謝謝，洪委員發言完畢。","請林思銘委員、林思銘委員、林思銘委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭委員不在。","請王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。","請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","請陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在。","請陳俊宇委員、陳俊宇委員、陳俊宇委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","好，作以下宣告，登記質詢委員均已發言完畢。作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員劉建國、楊瓊瓔所提書面質詢，列入紀錄並刊登公報。委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或尚未及答復部分，請數位部儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","許智傑","葛如鈞","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","游顥","林沛祥","何欣純","徐巧芯","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","黃珊珊","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭"],"page_start":349,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就\n「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.3209687500000005,"end":9.480968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.223468750000002,"end":54.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.26909375,"end":42.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.97596875,"end":59.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.56596875,"end":62.265968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.02159375,"end":64.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.70846875000001,"end":66.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.10909375,"end":69.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.11721875,"end":69.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.96096875,"end":75.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.20471875,"end":81.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.06034375,"end":84.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.55346875000001,"end":87.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.88659375,"end":87.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.93284375,"end":90.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.14784375,"end":90.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.75096875,"end":95.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.18096875,"end":103.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.19284375000001,"end":100.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.44096875000001,"end":112.48596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.58721875,"end":112.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.60409375,"end":113.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.02596875,"end":120.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.55221875000001,"end":120.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.97409375000001,"end":121.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.22721875,"end":131.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.42971875,"end":123.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.52096875,"end":133.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.96346875,"end":136.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.57909375,"end":151.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.65284375000002,"end":152.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.12534375,"end":152.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.19284375,"end":153.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.23909375000002,"end":154.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.18409375000002,"end":161.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.47409375,"end":172.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.08409375000002,"end":174.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.69971875000002,"end":205.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.14346875,"end":199.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.41221875000002,"end":208.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.61034375000003,"end":209.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.75346875000002,"end":212.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.03159375,"end":232.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.00971875000002,"end":217.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.72659375,"end":219.89534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.90596875000003,"end":241.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.5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有做民調嗎?電商的部份已經連續5個月沒有出現在165的高分前賣市 有沒有民調、人民的感受還是說你的利基點在哪裡?還是說就是在同溫層裡面大家都說 哇部長好棒棒"},{"start":103.55,"end":119.208,"text":"我們是在用165的通報訊息那是一個客觀的數據就是我們主管的電商或遊戲點數或什麼都大幅下降甚至高風險賣場是歸零欸不是 我們現在講的是說很多肯定啊我想要問的是肯定是別人給你的還是你自己評估給自己的"},{"start":121.73,"end":133.605,"text":"國人對於速發部我就說了從過去到現在我們一直強調每次提到速發部這一點我們不想講但是國人每次提到速發部你要不要問問看民間或說問一下你不是童文成的朋友"},{"start":135.154,"end":150.782,"text":"問一下一般的老百姓訴發部一年多了將近兩年的時間了你對於訴發部最有感的政策是哪一個你知道訴發部最近過去推的這前十大的政策是什麼你知道訴發部最近做了什麼事情"},{"start":151.522,"end":172.028,"text":"現在很多會說要不要去做一下要不要去不要再自我感覺良好了要不要自己真的好好的離開辦公室真的走入民間每一個政務官都不是神每一個政務官都不是說自己在位那一天就高高在上然後只想聽自己想要聽的然後完全不管人民的心聲完全不管人民的感受"},{"start":173.157,"end":197.322,"text":"我覺得這才是今天部長本席為什麼今天一定要來跟您做一個質詢跟當面來跟你提醒就是因為我認為現在民進黨政府的官員最嚴重的事情就是每一個人都活在自己的平行時空裡面好像跟因為老百姓是脫節的當你看到是說今天新聞出來說速發布打詐大家很多肯定的時候你覺得人民心理感受是什麼"},{"start":198.403,"end":205.334,"text":"當他的那個詐騙的案件數越來越高當他的詐騙竟然越來越多當你生活周遭有沒有朋友被詐騙"},{"start":207.712,"end":230.55,"text":"您的生活周遭有沒有朋友被詐騙所以本席想要強調的就是不要自我感覺良好我覺得這一點才是最重要的事情這一點才是真真正正讓國人覺得是說沒有辦法接受不管我說實在話你說速發部今天編列預算3000萬要出國出差3000萬對於整體的這個預算來講"},{"start":233.012,"end":233.032,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":262.332,"end":283.63,"text":"不要讓20多萬則才回收一千多份你看光這個事情我就直覺覺得就是人民都對於這個簡訊都不敢點開啦部長自己也講了嘛20多萬則明明是我們官方發出的20多萬則才回收一千多則你都好意思拿出來講我都不好意思說了目前陸續在回收回收率多少有沒有算過"},{"start":284.13,"end":311.481,"text":"這就代表是說國人都對於這種簡訊都覺得很莫名簡訊來路不明的簡訊都不敢點開了結果部長居然洋洋自喜站在這裡覺得是說這個是一個政績部長本期真的很希望因為數位發展部是當初我們也期待的部會但是快兩年的時間如果說這樣的話我真的對於數位發展部以及對你的去留我感到非常的擔憂"},{"start":312.881,"end":338.791,"text":"部長最後一分鐘的時間我只是簡單請教一個問題我之前有看過北市警說採購相關的這個密錄器配中國電線那速發部說零組件各單位自行評估這是2023年算不算核心元件這部分是那我想請教就到底說密錄器這一個部分這個是真的因為很多的產品其實都是Made in China"},{"start":339.291,"end":353.357,"text":"這無庸置疑因為畢竟很多時候會有那有些時候採購的時候我們那時候也有討論過說有資安疑慮的比如說螢幕、顯示器如果說它真的是Made in China那到底會不會如果說它沒有通訊的一個功能它沒有連接斷網可以使用"},{"start":356.058,"end":378.297,"text":"那他到底會不會有自然疑慮?就是在斷網的情況下使用的話可以阻絕大部分的供給但是我們還是希望他盡快的來汰換啦是那我想請教說那到底就有一些電子產品好那不要講說螢幕的部分講說有些電子產品他根本沒有就是連接網路的設備沒有通訊的設備沒有通訊的功能那個東西會不會有自然疑慮?"},{"start":379.006,"end":407.477,"text":"如果他是會附著透過USB附著在電腦上等等那個就有額外的可能性但如果他是完全斷網使用的話比較不會從外面被攻擊對我現在講就是說如果說這一個產品他是譬如說像密錄器錄影的部分他是只有錄影他沒有任何的這個連接的功能沒有任何的傳輸的功能會不會有自愛疑慮應該是如果是台灣的廠牌然後我們也能夠audit那個廠牌他所使用這一些你剛剛說這個PRC的零組件的狀況的話"},{"start":408.584,"end":420.068,"text":"這一部分我們要去看他到底有沒有自己接上通訊功能的可能性。這是對岸來判斷。我們現在建議就是說要先確定說他不會被境外敵人實力實質控制。謝謝。我們再說明說明。接受人民的請願、接受人民的聲音、瞭解地方的需求。我覺得這才是數發部現在應該要做的事情。謝謝。"},{"start":438.155,"end":440.548,"text":"數位部跟洪委員來說明清楚。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149588","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149588","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe26192a0cbd4b7dd2afe835f95dd6e817f8ba9b0039caa7a6f9795706fb47d6f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"12:25:15 - 12:30:48","影片長度":"00:05:33","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":333,"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:30:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T12:25:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":967,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時25分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請唐部長。"],["翁委員曉玲：大家好，我是翁曉玲。"],["唐部長鳳：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：今天我來詢問部長之前，其實我也閱讀了部長您這邊所提出來的報告，在這裡我有幾個問題，特別是我對於數發部底下有一個我認為還蠻奇特的單位，叫做民主網絡司。"],["唐部長鳳：我們副司長在這裡。"],["翁委員曉玲：我是想請教民主網絡司在數發部成立之後，最主要的職務，做了些什麼事情，是不是可以請部長可以非常簡短的說明一下？"],["唐部長鳳：好的，人跟人中間叫網絡，電腦跟電腦中間叫網路，民主網絡司就是透過我們參與國際的，包含政府間以及非政府跟政府都參與，所謂多方利害關係人的組織，像是最新的電子簽章互相採認等等，這些新技術上的外交作法，就可以突破我們舊的電子簽章法，要跟對方簽一個條約才能夠互認。但其實現在透過區塊鏈等等的方式，我們技術互通就已經可以互認了，等於就是De facto，事實上的變成互相承認的狀況，這種新的外交作法就是我們民主網絡司的作法。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，謝謝。因為我看到你們在網頁上，至少現在寫的民主網絡司的業務範圍裡，其實會涉及到各個不同部會的業務。譬如您剛剛講的電子簽章，也許是跟經濟部有關，又或者是在業務範圍裡面有一項是涉及到所謂的淨零策略等等。那麼我只是想瞭解，當民主網絡司去推動這些業務的時候，有跟其他的機關共同做一些跨部會的聯絡嗎？在你們要進行交流之前，有做到這些事情嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：是，當然有，電子簽章法確實本來是經濟部主管，不過現在已經移撥給我們了，我們是電子簽章法的主管機關，所以我們做電子簽章……"],["翁委員曉玲：除了電子簽章法之外呢？其他的呢？"],["唐部長鳳：像您剛剛提到的數位淨零，就是透過國際像區塊鏈的這種公正單位，去計算碳匯、淨零等等這種效益，這部分當然像環境部，或是我們在國際經貿談判的時候跟經貿辦等等，都是我們民主網絡司持續跟大家一起先彙整我們這邊的需求，然後再去爭取國外技術上面的對接。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我基本上還是認為，其實很多的業務，應該是在其他機關處理就可以了，是不是真的有額外多成立一個民主網絡司的必要性，這是我之後也會持續關注的事情。","接下來想請教，你們這次所提的報告書裡，主要是針對希望能夠提升113年的出國旅費，但我們知道行政院有一個因公派員出國案件編審要點，裡面有特別強調出國人數、天數應該力求精簡。可是事實上我們列舉了你們112年跟113年可能都要去參加的會議，你們的人數、天數、金額都擴編，不知道這是什麼原因？"],["唐部長鳳：感謝委員的詢問，民主網絡司在別的部會會叫國際合作司或國際及兩岸合作司，所以各個部會都有這樣子的司，只是我們是透過像剛剛提到的技術社群、公共城市的方式，但是性質上還是跟外交有關，這是第一個。第二個是我們這邊所提到的像經濟合作、國際交流會議等等，很多在去年的時候，還沒有這些業務移撥過來，臺英的、臺歐盟的、臺美21世紀等等的這些談判，那時候都還在國發會，是今年才過來。"],["翁委員曉玲：好瞭解，謝謝。因為我時間有限，我想請部長這邊是不是可以提供給我，你在去年度所曾經簽過的MOU，同時也要請教這些MOU有沒有送給外交部，並且送到立法院來進行備查？這個部分我希望部長可以之後能夠提供給我們。"],["唐部長鳳：當然，也包含像合作意向書或數位貿易支柱的關係協議等等，就是跟MOU同性質的我們會提供給委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，最後應該是在2000年的時候，當時有發布一個公務機關禁用ZOOM這個函釋，我想……"],["唐部長鳳：因為當時確實有資訊顯示ZOOM當時有受到境外敵對勢力實質控制。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以部長當時也支持這樣的一個做法嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：當時就是一收到這個情資就通報。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是部長您知道嗎？您卻在跟英國有交流的時候，你同樣也是使用ZOOM。"],["唐部長鳳：我是用瀏覽器。"],["翁委員曉玲：這有什麼差別？瀏覽器不是也是用ZOOM嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：不，就算你沒有安裝ZOOM的軟體，你可以用瀏覽器開一個視窗，我還是開在無痕虛擬機裡面，然後是透過那個網頁連到攝影機，不是ZOOM的軟體。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，這個技術麻煩請你們也可以告訴我們，因為我相信很多人不知道，會誤認為你就是在用ZOOM，為什麼我們一般老百姓不可以，但部長卻可以用。"],["唐部長鳳：用瀏覽器的方式，我們有一個操作規則，我們給委員好不好？"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝。"],["主席：翁委員發言完畢，現在請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","許智傑","葛如鈞","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","游顥","林沛祥","何欣純","徐巧芯","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","黃珊珊","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭"],"page_start":349,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就\n「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.60471875,"end":1.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.70159375,"end":2.9334687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.9672187500000002,"end":4.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":6.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.54034375,"end":7.5572187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.181593750000001,"end":8.586593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.704718750000001,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.57346875,"end":12.164093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.484718750000003,"end":13.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.51409375,"end":14.070968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.695343750000003,"end":24.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.887843750000002,"end":45.728468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.11471875,"end":32.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.91409375,"end":46.572218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.63971875,"end":47.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.70284375,"end":86.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.242218750000006,"end":52.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.66721875,"end":123.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.35846875000001,"end":118.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.71221875,"end":122.83034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.40409375,"end":155.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.87534375,"end":134.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.95596875,"end":174.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.92346875,"end":175.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.64909375000002,"end":186.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.91721875000002,"end":198.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.05471875,"end":205.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.38284375,"end":209.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.77034375000002,"end":241.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.21284375000002,"end":260.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.66971875,"end":268.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.05659375,"end":281.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.08846875,"end":285.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.74159375,"end":289.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.94784375,"end":291.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.09096875,"end":296.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.45284375,"end":299.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.34284375000004,"end":300.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.03034375000004,"end":302.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.05971875,"end":314.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.75159375000004,"end":304.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.85534375000003,"end":328.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.52159375,"e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facto事實上的變成一個互相承認的狀況那這種新的外交的做法就是我們民主網絡司的做法"},{"start":86.718,"end":101.491,"text":"好的謝謝因為我看到你們在網頁上面至少現在寫的民主網路司的業務範圍裡面它其實會涉及到各個不同的部會的業務譬如說您剛剛講的電子簽賬它也許是跟經濟部有關又或者是說您在這個"},{"start":103.613,"end":103.793,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":124.009,"end":143.691,"text":"當然有。電子簽賬法確實本來是經濟部主管,不過現在已經移撥給我們了。我們是電子簽賬法的主管機關。除了電子簽賬法之外呢?其他的呢?像您剛剛提到的數位淨零,就是透過國際的這種像區塊鏈的這種公正的單位去計算它、碳匯、淨零等等這種效益。"},{"start":144.271,"end":162.348,"text":"這個部分當然像環境部或者是我們在國際經貿談判的時候跟經貿辦等等這個都是我們民主網絡司持續在跟大家一起先彙整我們這邊的需求然後再去爭取國外技術上面的對接我基本上認為說其實很多的業務應該是在其他機關處理就可以了"},{"start":162.688,"end":186.468,"text":"是不是有真的要成立額外多成立一個民主網絡司的必要性就是我之後我也會持續關注這件事情那麼另外好接下來就是想請教就是在你們計劃裡面對在你們這次所提的報告書裡面其實主要是針對希望能夠提升113年的出國旅費可是事實上我們知道行政院"},{"start":187.93,"end":195.797,"text":"他有一個因公派員出國案件編審要點．裡面有特別強調出國人數、天數應該要力求精簡可是事實上你們在這個我們列舉了你們112年跟113年可能有一些都要重要去參加的會議但是你們的人數、天數、金額都擴編不知道這是什麼原因"},{"start":210.07,"end":234.016,"text":"感謝委員的詢問先講一個就是民主網絡司在別的部會會叫國際合作司或國際集團合作司所以各個部會都有這樣子的司只是我們是透過像剛剛提到的技術社群、公共城市的方式但是性質上還是跟外交有關這第一個第二個是說我們這邊所提到的就是像經濟合作、國際交流會議等等我們很多在去年的時候還沒有這些業務移撥過來"},{"start":235.496,"end":242.818,"text":"台英的、台歐盟的、台美21世紀的等等這些談判那時候都還在國發會是今年才過來好,謝謝因爲我時間有限那另外我想請部長這邊是不是可以提供給我就是你在去年度所曾經簽過的MOU那麼同時也要請教就是這些MOU有沒有有送給外交部並且送到立法院來進行被查那這個部分的話是我希望部長可以提供"},{"start":259.844,"end":284.699,"text":"當然也包含像合作意向書或者是數位貿易支柱的關係協議等等就是跟MOU同性質的啦我們會提供給委員好的好那最後呢就是有關於就是這個在2000年的時候應該是當時有發布一個公務機關禁用Zoom這個想這個還是我想有資訊顯示說他在當時有受到境外敵對實力實質控制"},{"start":285.856,"end":299.717,"text":"是,所以部長當時是也支持這樣子的一個做法嗎?當時就是一收到這個請字就通報了。好好好,是,可是部長您知道嗎?您卻跟這個在英國有交流的時候,你同樣也是使用…我是用瀏覽器。"},{"start":301.067,"end":303.669,"text":"拜託你們也可以告訴我們因為我相信很多大家不知道會認為說你就是在用Zoom為什麼我們一般老百姓不可以就是"},{"start":323.843,"end":330.694,"text":"可是部長就可以用嗎?我們用瀏覽器的那個方式我們有一個操作要點不是要點,一個規則我們可以留言好不好?好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149587","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149587","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe21ccc1aba04af8b0afe835f95dd6e817f8ba9b0039caa7a663514bac7a6078665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:19:42 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12:25:04","影片長度":"00:05:22","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":322,"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:25:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T12:19:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":938,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（12時19分）請部長。"],["唐部長鳳：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝主席、謝謝部長。昨天謝謝你來看我，所以我們也交換了很多意見，這兩天大家看到我們內政部的數位身分證，要賠償業者2億8,000萬元，算是補償吧！你覺得它原來的問題是出在哪裡？"],["唐部長鳳：就是大家對於政府過度蒐集個資之後，會不會做目的外利用，所謂的數位極權大家會很擔心。"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是說在相關的個人資料保護，跟政府的公權力平衡上，我們忽略掉必須先有配套的法制作業，還有嚴格的監管控制。"],["唐部長鳳：就是一個獨立的個資會。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有錯，接下來我們臺灣應該還是必須走向數位身分認證的道路對吧？"],["唐部長鳳：我們已經有自然人憑證、行動自然人憑證等等。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，自然人憑證是其中一環，我特別想說我們在疫情期間，因為沒有數位身分證，只能用最原始的健保卡來替代所謂的數位身分證。"],["唐部長鳳：那是因為這是公共使用，但是如果是民間，比方說商務使用，健保卡是不能那樣用的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我的意思是說，接下來要推這個部分，一定要先建置好相關的配套，還有人民可能擔心、疑慮的時候，而不是先去招標，讓廠商做了可能將來做不到的東西，然後事後再來賠好幾億的高額學費吧！"],["唐部長鳳：同意委員的說法。"],["黃委員珊珊：我昨天有跟部長說，台北通在臺北市政府推動的情況下可以存活下來，大概就是因為配套相關的作法，你覺得這個部分將來有辦法做到臺灣通嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：我想在跟委員交換意見的時候，我們也特別提到包含像主計人員、經費核銷等等是非常難突破的，確實我們現在就透過公共建設的方法，來突破這種數位經費核銷等等。這部分我想是勢在必行，因為如果不這樣推的話，那就變成是一個民間的受補助單位，光是隔一個橋、不同的縣市、不同的浮貼方法非常麻煩。這個倒不一定是用所謂app臺灣通的方式來做，也可以用像行動自然人憑證等等的方式。"],["黃委員珊珊：反正就是說，臺灣其實應該是數位大國，再有數發部的建置，雖然你們成立不久，但是我相信這個會是臺灣必須要跨出數位轉型最大的一步。第一個，要有相關的數位身分認證、第二個，公部門應該以公帶私，引領臺灣走向數位轉型。尤其是像公部門裡面的電子核銷還有電子公文，這個目前大概只有幾個直轄市在做，但是臺灣感覺不應該有像現在那麼大的城鄉差距跟落後，麻煩部長這可能是你最重要的工作之一。","另外就是我昨天談到，剛剛我也在司法及法制委員會討論，詐騙已經多到幾乎每個人都被詐騙過，沒有真的被得逞，但是一定都接過電話。被詐騙的人為什麼會一直詐騙呢？因為你抓到的那些可能只是車手、只是人頭帳戶的人，人民其實不太關心詐騙犯抓不抓得到，人民關心的是詐騙的錢找不找得回來，對吧？"],["唐部長鳳：對，及時凍結、及時警示。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為現在大部分的錢都找不回來，所以即使抓到人，他可能也是血本無歸，所以現在是資訊交換的速度要比詐騙集團他們轉帳的速度快，才能夠抓得到人。"],["唐部長鳳：就表示要是機器對機器，不能再用人的那種公文交換。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，除了銀行之外，銀行已經下了很嚴格的監管，但其實現在新興的部分叫做虛擬資產，所以虛擬資產的交易平臺，我希望由數發部，剛剛法務部我也講了，我們希望政府來協助成立一個虛擬平臺。因為現在所有的業者要自己對調查局、刑事局和派出所，一個一個、一層一層的通報。另外他們通報的方式跑到165去，非常非常的原始，叫做傳真機，我們應該很多人很久沒用過傳真機了，所以這個部分是不是請數發部協助法務部，成立虛擬資產的平臺，他們可以即時凍結裡面異常的帳戶，因為他們其實也是有帳戶在做交易，好不好？"],["唐部長鳳：委員的詢問我快速說明，我們之前在輔導第三方支付的時候，也碰過一模一樣的問題。後來是跟金管會還有165等有一個聯防通報的平臺，包含即時查詢虛擬帳號後面是誰等等，這個應該3月底就會做好。您剛剛提到VASP，就是虛擬資產的部分，當然是由金管會管，但是我會願意，因為這一套就是跟金管會一起建立起來的，看看金管會怎麼樣引入這一套作法。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以把它介接出來，你可不可以給我一個可能作法的規劃跟相關的時程報告？"],["唐部長鳳：我們一個月之內給委員報告。"],["黃委員珊珊：好的，謝謝。"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝。"],["主席：黃委員發言完畢，現在請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","許智傑","葛如鈞","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","游顥","林沛祥","何欣純","徐巧芯","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","黃珊珊","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭"],"page_start":349,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就\n「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.30909375,"end":2.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.06846875,"end":17.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.59784375,"end":18.762218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.70721875,"end":22.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.352218750000002,"end":29.460968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.47784375,"end":35.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.721593750000004,"end":36.126593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.39659375,"end":38.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.759093750000005,"end":43.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.97346875,"end":44.580968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.580968750000004,"end":44.783468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.783468750000004,"end":44.867843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.867843750000006,"end":47.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.922218750000006,"end":53.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.13221875,"end":56.680343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.680343750000006,"end":67.61534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.30721875,"end":73.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.64409375000001,"end":89.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.04221875,"end":90.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.29096875,"end":92.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.79284375,"end":93.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.99096875000001,"end":94.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.86846875,"end":111.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.89534375000001,"end":145.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.76346875000002,"end":162.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.00971875000002,"end":171.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.51471875000001,"end":179.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.69909375,"end":181.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.23034375,"end":182.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.00659375,"e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12:19:11","影片長度":"00:04:14","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":254,"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:19:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T12:14:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":917,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時14分）好，謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["唐部長鳳：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，其實我想大家應該都知道說前天晚上一個重要的社群軟體突然有一些故障，不幸中的大幸是我們還有其他的通訊軟體，但是在我們嘉義山區可能就沒有這麼的幸運，那我們台3線經過中埔、大埔的部分路段是沒有手機訊號，完全沒有，有些時候會遇到受困者求救艱難。針對這個問題，我必須要強調，部長你有說過會努力的跟電信業者合作提供誘因來改善偏遠地區的……"],["唐部長鳳：就是經費的部分可以補助。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，我們知道說數發部有建置大埔鄉防災行動通訊平台、網路基地台補助電信建設經費，也已經有補助大埔、番路興建二站，中華、遠傳、大哥大共構基地台，工程預計在今年11月底動工，請問有沒有這樣子的訊息？部長有沒有掌握到這個訊息？"],["唐部長鳳：剛剛司長是跟我說3月底就可以開通。"],["陳委員冠廷：3月底就可以開通？3月底就可以開通，非常好，這是給我們山區民眾非常重要的訊息，那我們也是強烈的建議，部長其實可以統整，因為我們不是只有單一個案，光是我們臺灣本島就好，很多山區其實是過了一個路口基本上就收不到訊號。有些時候是由地方主動反饋，然後希望能夠來強韌化這個部分；有些地方卻是沒有辦法反饋的，因為曾經發生過事故，但是就沒有辦法回應，那都是有可能的，所以我們希望請數位部能夠去加強這部分的韌性，並加以協助。"],["唐部長鳳：沒有問題。"],["陳委員冠廷：第二個部分是智慧人才，就是教育人才的培育，我們非常重視，部長應該有聽過T大使計畫？"],["唐部長鳳：有，這是我們數位青年很重要的計畫，培訓2,000位。"],["陳委員冠廷：培訓的這些人員主要是在哪一個縣市比較多？六都還是非六都？"],["唐部長鳳：以我所知，我們一直都有一個專門做社會企業的，就是他即使是六都來的，我們是派到非六都中需要做數位轉型的地方。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，我講到T大使的計畫主要就是說，我覺得這樣子的訊息是必須要讓六都以外的其他縣市能夠有機會去得到這樣的重要訊息，因為還有很多相關的東西。譬如說我們嘉義縣一些鄉鎮，當然我們是透過一些大專院校能夠提供這樣子的宣傳，我是希望說它的宣傳能夠更廣一點、更頻繁一點，讓大家知道有這個機會可以去申請。申請評比上的話，我還是希望能夠儘量不要用齊頭平等的方式，並考慮到我們各個縣市的特殊性，然後給予這些弭平城鄉落差的可能。","最後一個部分，時間是比較緊迫，但我還是覺得非常重要，關於海底電纜、基礎的通訊建設部分，這邊我們是有看到相關的訊息，還有我們數位部一些官員接受這些新聞的採訪，我必須要提醒一點，臺灣的海底電纜在淡水、頭城等地方上岸，全世界都知道，那也可能是我們敵對力量攻擊的目標選項，所以我們現在除了透過分歧上岸、拉一些隱匿的登陸點之外，數發部有沒有研擬其他強化海底電纜韌性的計畫？"],["唐部長鳳：是，其實分歧上岸的意思就是說有些部分是外面知道的、而其他的部分就是不為外界所知。這個其實我們也還包含把它的上岸點變得比較強固、比較難用一般的方式來破壞等等，除此之外，如果海底電纜真的碰到什麼問題的話，剛剛委員提到很多很偏鄉的地方，其實商用衛星如果今年年底可以如期來提供服務的話，衛星也是一個備援的選項。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。我們希望說先做好準備，這樣的準備我們可能不會遇到，但還是一定要做完整的韌性上的強固，我想這是數位部很重要的一個任務，也希望部長朝這方面繼續努力。"],["唐部長鳳：我們有萬全的準備的話，我想境外敵對勢力就比較不敢攻擊。謝謝。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。"],["主席：陳委員發言完畢。","現在請蘇巧慧委員發言，蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧委員不在。","現在請張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","現在請黃珊珊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","許智傑","葛如鈞","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","游顥","林沛祥","何欣純","徐巧芯","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","黃珊珊","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭"],"page_start":349,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就\n「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.10659375,"end":2.9672187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.7134687500000005,"end":7.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.02971875,"end":15.724718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.53471875,"end":32.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.80221875,"end":40.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.501593750000005,"end":40.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.37909375,"end":40.969718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.969718750000006,"end":59.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.05409375,"end":41.087843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.641593750000006,"end":62.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.35034375,"end":65.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.97846875,"end":96.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.23534375000001,"end":110.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.00096875000001,"end":111.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.03471875000001,"end":116.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.04221875,"end":118.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.49346875,"end":118.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.52721875,"end":118.57784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.57784375000001,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.02909375,"end":120.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.97409375000001,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.02471875,"end":121.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.90221875,"end":130.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.54221875000002,"end":182.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.42659375,"end":141.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.45409375,"end":154.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.97284375,"end":208.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.60159375,"end":233.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.40784375,"end":248.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.19471875000002,"end":252.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.65409375000002,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.18534375000002,"end":254.86034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAK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有請薛部長及石署長謝謝好 請部長跟石署長委員好"},{"start":27.423,"end":51.631,"text":"有請薛部長你知道針對藥價的問題是本席長期關心的議題本席必須要用自己的專業向部長指出幾個問題的嚴重性因為藥價的調整不但涉及民眾的用藥權益甚至造成缺藥的情況會發生那更是危及國人的生命、身體及健康甚至可能會是國安的問題"},{"start":52.771,"end":71.104,"text":"而且藥局根本沒有囤藥的問題只有缺藥的問題最近有許多醫事人員反應不合理的狀況就是想請教部長一個問題如果有一個慢性患者他在3月1號就醫後拿到醫生開出的慢性處方簽三個月他原來已經領了一個月了"},{"start":73.366,"end":94.982,"text":"但是健保署卻公告說藥價準備在4月1號要降 健保價調降所以請問當這個患者4月2號要第二次領藥的時候 是不是應該要以就一期日計算呢還是請問健保署對於這個藥價的計算 覺得要用哪一天來計算才合理呢"},{"start":97.389,"end":104.227,"text":"這基本上他已經有這一個處方了他就讓他處方去拿藥拿了藥之後再申報"},{"start":106.399,"end":120.584,"text":"是,部長你知道嗎?如果依照4月1號計算藥價在目前這樣的制度執行對於給藥的醫療機構實在是非常的不公平因為這個基層醫療的機構紛紛在反映說並不是說政府已經有預告何時調整藥價醫療機構就馬上要隨時的配合多出的成本反映的"},{"start":130.868,"end":141.162,"text":"今天如果一個弱勢的醫療機構他平常在進藥品的時候他的藥通常都贏不了大型醫院啊所以北行是不是可以趁部長今天來備詢這個機會我們把基層醫療的問題來釐清"},{"start":146.149,"end":159.886,"text":"所以本席在此想針對藥價調整的問題為民眾及基於藥食法則那就是過去就有一個就有一些案例是已經確定的就是說有一個有關慢性病連續處方簽對於健保藥價調整金額後"},{"start":164.091,"end":187.58,"text":"而因為換藥情況導致缺藥的可能而先前就是因為健保代碼支付價格歸零或藥品取消健保給付的問題健保署就有實施以原處方就是就醫期日或者治療的結束日支付該藥品的健保費"},{"start":188.975,"end":205.28,"text":"這個大概不太可行不是這個是已經是確定執行的只是我想要把剛才這樣的例子看看有沒有辦法套用例子來講第一個就是藥已經開出去了就是那一個藥所以處方箱裡面就是那一個藥"},{"start":206.56,"end":224.462,"text":"這一個藥的話去做調劑不管是怎麼樣回原業運手去做調劑還是收到社區藥局去做調劑那調劑完之後跟健保申報費用的時候那本來就是按年薪的啊至少在年度例行這個問題就是出在於藥品支付價格之後民眾領導"},{"start":225.623,"end":226.744,"text":"新藥價生效日是不是就應該以醫生處方日認定呢?這個的話我想說想健保署可以"},{"start":242.911,"end":243.572,"text":"請部長一個星期內給本席正面的滿意"},{"start":266.165,"end":288.625,"text":"這個跟病的權益沒有影響這個是跟藥局跟健保署沒關係這個的話再書面報告一下好主席可以再一分鐘OK好部長你同意支持三同藥物嗎來協助國人度過這個缺藥的危機嗎這我們當然就是政策目標就這樣做"},{"start":289.145,"end":316.18,"text":"那你們過去一年來宣傳學名藥的預算還執行率有多少呢?這一個部分的話當然我手上是沒有這個資料啦那預算的部分好 因為我有請我們的助理跟你們食藥署索取資料但是索取了兩次之後到現在依舊沒有回覆然後這是不是藐視國會議員啊?沒有 對不對衛福部針對是否有三通藥物做宣導是不是宣傳的力道太弱了呢?然後"},{"start":316.88,"end":331.477,"text":"以致缺藥大家又沒有辦法接受學民藥這樣的話我們是不是應該要來編列預算然後積極作為呢以免缺藥造成民眾之間的恐慌這是不是衛福部的責任呢"},{"start":332.578,"end":350.511,"text":"所以我們今年在這一個部分的宣導的費用我們會增加但是我們經常這個宣導費用到了那個立法院：好沒關係部長是否可以在此承諾重新檢討一個跨部會的我們學民藥的政策把它分成短中長的目標短程就是宣導中程就是穩定生產的供應長程就是扶植我國MIT的製造的指示藥學民藥產業那可以嗎"},{"start":359.957,"end":360.158,"text":"林憶君委員"}]}},{"id":"149584","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149584","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe55071e6ec59436a83ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a668624459ca2ade4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:26:34 - 12:35:03","影片長度":"00:08:29","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":509,"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:35:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T12:26:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1068,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時26分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部部長、台電代理董事長。總經理也可以上來，因為有些業務如果董事長不知道，總經理可以代答，沒有關係。"],["主席：請以上三位。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：三位好。2012年馬政府油電雙漲導致民怨沸騰，那個時候我們在檢討電價調整必要性，民主進步黨有一位立法委員叫林佳龍，我覺得他那時候質詢得很有道理耶！他說電價要漲，結果台電還在養肥貓！其實佳龍學長用的字比較重啊！他是用「監守自盜」。他那時候批評台電總經理涂正義退休以後轉任台灣大電力研究試驗中心董事長，他認為這是台電在養肥貓。那時候針對這樣的批評，經濟委員會也通過一項附帶決議，要求以後這種退休轉任的事情必須受到限制。那我現在的問題就來了，當初台電總經理退休後轉任台灣大電力研究試驗中心董事長，民進黨那時候在野，強烈批判，說這是台電養肥貓啊！那現在台電副總經理退休以後，一樣到台灣大電力研究試驗中心當董事長，這樣是不是養肥貓？"],["王部長美花：他是用他的專業轉任到這邊來。"],["黃委員國昌：所以那時候是養肥貓，現在不是養肥貓？標準不一樣就對了？"],["王部長美花：這是委員個別的質詢。對我們來說，我們很慎重地看待這個職位。"],["黃委員國昌：我只有一個簡單的要求啊！當初怎麼要求人家的、怎麼批判人家的，現在就不要幹一樣的事情嘛！別人是養肥貓，民進黨幹就不是養肥貓？","第二個問題，當初經濟委員會的附帶決議內容提到退休以後不可以到民營事業去做，但那時沒有規範到經濟部或台電所實質控制的財團法人。部長認為這個規範有沒有修正的必要？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，其實台電一直在檢討相關工作，包括這件事情。對於這件事情，次長兼我們董事長之後也看到這個問題，所以他已經要求這些出去的同仁薪水絕對要砍下來、絕對不能超過台電總經理的薪水。"],["黃委員國昌：砍了以後，月薪不是還將近20萬元嗎？特別費不是4萬元嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：應該沒有到20萬元，根據新的規定都已經降下來了，次長、也就是我們董事長已經要求這些費用都降下來了，包含所有費用。"],["黃委員國昌：我剛才請教部長一個問題，總經理要回答也可以。那個時候規定退休以後轉任者，只有你們下面的子公司受到限制，你們控制的財團法人沒有嘛！這個規範有沒有檢討的必要？"],["王總經理耀庭：當然，因為這些財團法人都是台電投資的，所以現在去這些財團法人的都是台電的同仁或台電出去的。"],["黃委員國昌：我的問題很簡單啦！一個是公司形式，一個是財團法人的形式，但是從旋轉門條款的例子來講，不應該因為是兩者就有區別對待。所以我的問題很具體，拜託台電回去之後再思考，如果針對子公司有這樣的限制，針對財團法人需不需要有相同或類似限制？我的要求只有這樣。","時間的關係，我邁入第二個主題。剛剛也有委員質詢，台電在通過一些廣告標案的時候用限制性標案給特定網媒，包括周玉蔻的放言，台電剛剛由總經理回答，說你們有整體的評估。至於整體評估完之後如何，可能因為時間不夠，剛才那個委員沒有讓你具體回答，來！你們評估完以後覺得成效如何？"],["王總經理耀庭：向委員報告，我們希望觸及的是各個面向閱聽民眾。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！錢花下去了，這個石頭丟到水裡去了有沒有效果？台電要花錢總是要有評估嘛！我這樣說應該沒有錯吧？"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["黃委員國昌：可是我剛剛在下面聽，沒有聽到你們評估的結果是什麼，所以我現在請教你，給你時間回答啊！評估的結果怎麼樣？若是成效卓著、有達到預期結果，就要不斷地給、不斷地給、繼續給，是這樣嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們並沒有每一年都給放言。委員也看到這個數字，就是2018年、2019年、2020年、2021年，2022年沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：那沒有關係嘛！2018年給完以後，不是2019年也給；2019年給完，2020年又給嘛！2020年給完以後，2021年又給。那我的問題很簡單嘛！我說你連續幾年、每年這樣給有說錯嗎？我還給你時間解釋耶！你的成效是怎麼評估的？說出來給臺灣社會大眾聽一聽啊！"],["王總經理耀庭：因為我們整體投放廣告的媒體數量，如果我數字沒記錯的話，大概接近100家，如同剛剛提到的報紙廣告等等。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啊！我現在問的是你是怎麼評估的嘛！還是反正就是有這麼多錢，而錢就是要花，錢掌握在手上，愛給誰就給誰，成效都不用評估，是這樣嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：不，我們都會評估。"],["黃委員國昌：好，評估的結果是什麼，解釋給大家聽嘛！因為我看不出來啊！"],["王總經理耀庭：剛剛提過了，因為同樣一個人接觸的面向很廣，有可能在媒體上接觸、也可能在電視……"],["黃委員國昌：不要講空的嘛！剛剛你說有評估，那我讓你講評估的結果，請告訴大家。我完全沒講話，我開放式地給你回答，評估的結果是什麼？跟大家講啊！"],["王總經理耀庭：因為這牽涉到幾十家、將近一百家媒體，數字我可能一時記不起來。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啊！我全部都調啦！你們剛才連續給的啊！但沒有成效報告啊！空白啊！在哪裡？我負責任地調資料回來看耶！好不容易看到有成效報告，一看卻大驚失色啊！成效非常好啊！點閱567次、點閱423次。錢是這樣花的喔？"],["王總經理耀庭：這是我們在這個單獨個案看到的……"],["黃委員國昌：對！這就是我的問題了嘛！這個單獨個案效果這麼差、沒有成效報告，每年錢還繼續給，到底是為了什麼？幫民進黨養側翼嗎？這就是我的問題啊！"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，台電的意思是這個廣告的廠商其實有100家左右，委員有這樣的意見，台電會再檢討一下，看看這100家……"],["黃委員國昌：我的問題很簡單嘛！你們的錢都是納稅人的錢，台電需要幫忙，大家需要用電，我們必須認真地去看現在的狀況，理性地討論，我相信大家都同意。但我現在不管是50家、100家還是10家，錢不能這樣花，這是我的立場。"],["王部長美花：我們請台電檢討一下。"],["主席：林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員不在場。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在場。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在場。","蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧委員不在場。","莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員不在場。","牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭委員不在場。","王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在場。","林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員不在場。","請羅委員智強發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra 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我們都會評估好 評估的結果是什麼解釋給大家聽嘛因為我看不出來啊那主要是因為剛剛提過了我的同樣的一個人他事實上接觸的面向很廣有可能在媒體上接觸不要講空的嘛剛剛你說有評估嘛我給你講評估的結果請告訴大家我完全沒講話我開放式的給你回答評估的結果是什麼跟大家講啊"},{"start":410.749,"end":420.312,"text":"因為這個牽涉到幾十家將近100家的媒體 這數字我可能還一時記不起來沒有啊 我全部都去調了啊 你們剛連續給的啊 沒有成效報告啊 空白啊 在哪裡 我負責任的去調資料回來看欸"},{"start":431.749,"end":444.799,"text":"好不容易看到有成效報告了哇我看了大驚失色啊成效非常好啊點閱567次點閱423次錢這樣花的這個是在這個單獨個案我們看到的齁對這個就是我的問題了嘛這個單獨的個案效果這麼差沒有成效報告每年前還繼續給到底是為了什麼幫民進黨養車役嗎這就是我的問題啊"},{"start":464.864,"end":477.934,"text":"跟委員報告臺電的意思是說我們的這個廣告其實有100家左右啦齁那委員的有這樣意見臺電會去再檢討一下那看這樣的每一個的我都問你很簡單嘛100家你的錢你的錢都是納稅的錢臺電需要幫忙大家需要用電"},{"start":487.403,"end":487.884,"text":"我們台電來檢討一下 是"}]}},{"id":"149583","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149583","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe846501631dacb691aaa95e40c3cff622f8ba9b0039caa7a6d11de6715aabe0185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:23:53 - 12:34:40","影片長度":"00:10:47","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":647,"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:34:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T12:23:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1653,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時23分）主席，有請部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長，想請問法務部有沒有自己的統計，全臺有多少通緝犯還沒有落網、逍遙法外的？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們有我們的統計。"],["羅委員智強：多少呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：目前是總共是5.5萬人通緝中，包括偵查中的有二點九萬多人，然後審判中的是九千多人，執行中的是1.7萬人，所以加起來是5.5萬人。"],["羅委員智強：那潛逃出境大概有多少人？"],["蔡部長清祥：潛逃出境的話法務部沒有做更詳細的統計。"],["羅委員智強：警政署的統計我看起來跟你有點不太一樣，警政署統計是8萬人，為什麼會有落差？"],["蔡部長清祥：8萬他可能是累計的，有些已經緝獲了……"],["羅委員智強：你講的是2019年到2023年嘛，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：我講的數據是目前在通緝中，法務部的統計是目前通緝中的，那累計的話當然是另外一個，就是抓到又放掉了，才會有八萬多這樣的一個數字，也許這個行政……"],["羅委員智強：那真正在外面多少？真正在外面是5萬8還是8萬？"],["蔡部長清祥：5.5萬人。"],["羅委員智強：真正在外面是5.5萬人。"],["蔡部長清祥：在外面就是我們知道的在審判中或是在偵查中、在執行中被通緝的數字。"],["羅委員智強：警政署的統計潛逃出境大概8,000人，為什麼法務部沒有統計呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為我們沒有做這個境管。"],["羅委員智強：沒有做境管。游毓蘭委員去年10月曾經向法務部、司法院索取資料，那當時就說沒有統計潛逃出境的部分，對不對？可是在犯罪防治當中這一點不重要嗎？潛逃出境的人數要掌握。"],["蔡部長清祥：當然很重要，但是還要進一步去瞭解通緝時人在哪裡，他是不是出境了，那當然……"],["羅委員智強：我具體建議啦，因為已經有人具體建議應該把逃出境外的人數加入法務部統計月報裡面，因為犯罪偵防資訊不夠要怎麼樣做犯罪偵防呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：這個要全盤瞭解有困難，如果大家知道說他在國外，要透過法務部來做司法互助的話……"],["羅委員智強：只要跨部會協調，潛逃出境應該找得出一個SOP去統計數字，為什麼做不到呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為通緝的機關不同，而且每個案子他到底在國內還是國外……"],["羅委員智強：警政署的統計基礎在哪裡？"],["蔡部長清祥：那要請教他們呀，他們內政部……"],["羅委員智強：我覺得你們還是要連線一下。"],["蔡部長清祥：好。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教我國目前矯正機關收容人數大概是多少？最多可以收容多少人？"],["蔡部長清祥：目前我們知道是……"],["羅委員智強：我看到數據是5萬5,000人，5萬5,426人嘛。這就有點奇怪了，現在你說5.5萬人棄保潛逃嘛，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：通緝中。"],["羅委員智強：通緝中啦，5.5萬人通緝中，那你現在監獄就只有5.5萬的容量啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：容量應該不只，我們現在整個容量比……"],["羅委員智強：收容多少人？"],["蔡部長清祥：比現行收容的好，我們比現行收容的容量還更大。"],["羅委員智強：更大，所以如果說把這5.5萬通緝犯都抓到，基本上收容的空間還是夠？"],["蔡部長清祥：通緝犯抓到……"],["羅委員智強：都抓到或自首。"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明，抓到以後如果在偵查中，檢察官認為都問清楚了，根本不需要羈押，就不會送到矯正署去；審判中，法官也是一樣，通緝捉回來了，這個人說明清楚……"],["羅委員智強：所以你認為是夠的就對了？"],["蔡部長清祥：被通緝人說明清楚了，也可能交保、也可能釋回，所以不一定要全部都要送到矯正機關。"],["羅委員智強：我意思是如果扣掉這些，你覺得還是夠的？"],["蔡部長清祥：收容矯正機關有分兩個，一個是看守所是在……"],["羅委員智強：我不管看守所或是其他矯正機關，基本上你覺得現在空間是夠的，就算全部通緝犯都抓到。"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有問題啦，因為還有法官、檢察官可能當場就釋放，就會交保或是施以電子監控等等，不一定全部都送到矯正機關來。"],["羅委員智強：部長，我要請教一個問題，其實我也要感謝，因為我看到棄保潛逃罪已經列在立法計畫裡面，我想請問你要怎樣去推動這個棄保潛逃罪，重點是什麼？這個立法計畫為什麼重要？"],["蔡部長清祥：當然我們也順應民意的要求，事實上我們確實很早就體會到拒保的被告或是嫌疑犯有出庭的義務，否則整個案件沒辦法繼續進行下去，那要用什麼樣的方式，當然除了刑事罰之外，也有其他的方式共同來確保整個刑事訴訟程序能夠順利的進行。"],["羅委員智強：就如同部長說其實這個立法非常重要，這也是這會期，我是第一個參與推動棄保潛逃罪的，我也看到過去長期推動這個法案的黃國昌委員，他也領銜民眾黨提出了法案，所以目前看起來在野黨已經有共識，連法務部基本上都是贊成立法嘛。但我想請問為什麼從2019年9月提報行政院審查之後，到目前召開11次會議審查，拖了四年多的時間，目前程序到底是卡在哪裡？"],["蔡部長清祥：那因為行政院還繼續……"],["羅委員智強：所以還沒通過行政院院會，是嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：當然如果要由行政院來提案，當然要經過院會才會送到大院。"],["羅委員智強：你覺得用什麼送過來的方式比較好？怎麼送比較好？"],["蔡部長清祥：都可以啊，委員如果急著要提案的話，我們也可以來參與。"],["羅委員智強：因為已經在行政院審查的會議當中，其實拖了4年時間，那到底是卡在什麼地方？有什麼反對的論點？"],["蔡部長清祥：各界有不同的看法。"],["羅委員智強：好。那另外我想請教，因為我看到羅秉成政委回應棄保潛逃罪的修法，他說這種被告犯罪刑期很高，根本不在乎棄保潛逃罪2到3年刑期，所以對這個效力跟效果存疑，那我想請問你認同這個說法嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：這也是考量之一。"],["羅委員智強：所以接下來你考量了羅秉成政委的說法之後，對棄保潛逃罪你有什麼樣的一個方向，或是你覺得可以把他的意見考量進去的？"],["蔡部長清祥：很多方法啦，您說提高刑度也許大家覺得這個很好，但是要真正能夠落實，刑度高，法官要判得下去，然後刑法也不是唯一的方法，每一個都要用重刑來處罰，是不是能達到效果……"],["羅委員智強：所以法案上比例原則要考慮進去。我的看法很簡單，你今天犯的本刑跟棄保潛逃，基本上侵害的法益是不相同的，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：對，因為可能它每一個涉及的個案不一樣，他的刑罰不同。"],["羅委員智強：對，因此我覺得本來就是應該要課以所謂的棄保潛逃罪，這個論點基本上我跟法務部的看法是相同的。","但是我現在要問你另外一個問題，因為大家這段時間都很關心詐欺的問題，我想請問目前根據最高檢察署的統計，2018年迄今詐欺犯是高居各地檢察署收件案件之首，是吧？"],["蔡部長清祥：應該是。"],["羅委員智強：那平均累計已經到75萬件，請問平均的年增率達多少？"],["蔡部長清祥：年增率就是看跟過去的……"],["羅委員智強：我這邊的數據是28，我想請問詐騙橫行創新高，財損也不斷的創新高，可是目前判決有罪定讞的詐欺犯大概是7萬人，那重刑3年以上大概是多少人？355人對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：我也曾經回答過委員的質詢，我也認為說確實判決的刑度是偏低的。"],["羅委員智強：所以也請你這個一併考慮，好不好？在修法上一併考慮，說真的詐騙已經變國恥了，大家實際上對詐騙已經是有點忍無可忍。","另外，我也看到一個狀況，就是詐欺的態樣也開始有一點點不太一樣，除了詐欺之外，也開始出現很多對民眾施虐、控制、拘禁、妨害自由這些伴隨的行為模式，我看到從2016年到2023年妨害自由的發生件數，從7,136件增加到1萬5,158件，漲了將近兩倍，你覺得到底發生了什麼事情？"],["蔡部長清祥：這個統計應該是妨害自由的案件啦，但是不是跟詐欺有關聯這還是要再……"],["羅委員智強：當然，這是不同的議題，但是我要講的是說我們確實看到許多詐欺，包括之前像青埔、淡水都發生了，而且很嚴重，後來造成民眾死亡嘛，像這種所謂的詐欺的型態，伴隨拘禁跟妨害自由的型態確實有增加嗎？還是在你看起來沒有增加？"],["蔡部長清祥：是有發生啦，過去大概……"],["羅委員智強：有沒有統計大概的狀況？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們可以再進一步瞭解。"],["羅委員智強：我這邊給部長一個建議，很多的犯罪態樣、形式跟數字，我覺得可能要與時俱進，就是說若能夠掌握得更好、更精確的話也有助於犯罪偵防。以上。"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員指教，剛剛提到發生妨害自由，我們在刑法的修正上也有把它納進來，對於這種囚禁，就是詐欺的案子他把人囚禁起來，我們都已經立法修正了，這也是大院支持的，未來的各種新型態需要再加刑法構成要件的話，我們也很樂意馬上來修法。"],["羅委員智強：好，感謝部長，謝謝。"],["主席：今日所有委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請儘速送交個別委員及本會。本次會議到此結束。","另外，再麻煩法務部、麻煩部長就本席剛剛發言的那幾件事情幫忙弄清楚，我一定會持續的追，我個人認為這幾個點對檢方現在以及將來的發展都有很大的關聯性，請法務部一定要幫忙處理這個部分，謝謝。","今天會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（12時35分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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全台有多少通緝犯還沒有落網 逍遙法外的"},{"start":12.986,"end":33.511,"text":"我們有我們的統計目前總共是5.5萬目前通緝中的包括偵查中的有2.9萬多然後審判中的是9千多執行中的是1.7萬所以加起來是5.5萬那潛逃出境大概有多少人"},{"start":38.792,"end":39.112,"text":"請證書統計說是8萬為什麼會有落差"},{"start":51.208,"end":77.202,"text":"8萬他可能是累計的有些他已經棄貨的你講的是2019年到2023年嘛對不對我講的數字是目前在通緝中法務部的統計中目前通緝中那累計的話當然那是另外一個就是說你抓到了又放掉了才會有8萬多這樣的一個數字我以為也許這個行政他真的在外面多少真的在外面是5萬8還是8萬"},{"start":78.843,"end":81.826,"text":"警政署統計說潛逃出境大概8000人,為什麼法務部沒有統計呢?沒有做盡管"},{"start":100.254,"end":113.723,"text":"劉玉蘭委員去年10月曾向法務部司法院索取資料那當時就說沒有統計潛逃出境的部分 對不對可是我覺得在犯罪防治當中這一點不重要嗎"},{"start":115.767,"end":135.102,"text":"當然很重要但是還要進一步去了解他通緝人在哪裡他是不是出境了那當然我具體建議啦因為已經有人具體建議就是說你是不是應該把逃出境外的人數加入法務部的統計月報裡面因為犯罪偵訪你資訊都不夠你怎麼樣做犯罪偵訪呢這個"},{"start":138.24,"end":138.92,"text":"警政署統計基礎在哪裡?"},{"start":162.538,"end":186.864,"text":"那要請教他們啦我覺得你們還是要連線一下我想請教一下就是我國目前矯正機關收容人數大概是多少?最多可以收容多少人?目前我們知道是我看到數據是五萬五千人五萬五千四百二十六人那這就有一點奇怪了你現在跟我講說五點五萬的氣泡潛逃對不對?"},{"start":190.927,"end":215.361,"text":"通緝中5.5萬通緝中那你你現在監獄就只有5.5萬的容量啊容量應該不止啊我們現在整個容量收容多少人比現行收容的好我們的容量還更大更大所以如果說把這個5.5萬的你講說通緝犯都抓到基本上還是收容的那個空間還是夠"},{"start":217.679,"end":238.352,"text":"通緝犯抓到以後抓到以後如果在偵查中跟委員說明如果偵查中檢察官認為問清楚了根本不需要羈押就不會送到矯正署去了審判中法官也是一樣通緝來了這個人說明清楚了也可能交保也可能賜回所以不一定要全部都要送到對我意思說如果扣掉這些你覺得還是夠就對了"},{"start":240.322,"end":249.679,"text":"收容矯正機關有兩個一個是看守所是在我不管看守所或其他矯正機關基本上你覺得現在空間是夠的就算全部通緝犯都抓到"},{"start":251.351,"end":270.777,"text":"沒有問題啦 因為還有法官檢察官他可能當場就釋放他就會交保或是施以電子監控等等不一定全部都會送到矯正機關來那部長我想請教一個問題就是說因為其實我也要感謝啦因為我看到七毛潛逃罪已經你們列在那個立法計畫裡面嘛 對不對"},{"start":272.079,"end":278.608,"text":"那我想請問你要怎麼樣去來推動這個棄保潛逃罪重點是什麼重要在哪裡為什麼這個立法計畫為什麼重要"},{"start":283.068,"end":309.564,"text":"當然我們也順應民意的要求事實上我們很早就有體會到說這個是確實對於拒保的這些被告或是嫌疑犯他是有出庭的義務或者整個案件沒辦法繼續的進行下去那我們要用什麼樣的方式當然除了刑事法之外也有其他的方式大家能夠共同來確保整個刑事訴訟程序能夠順利的進行"},{"start":314.811,"end":332.268,"text":"這也是我這會期我是第一個參議要推動棄保潛逃罪的那我也看到那個過去長期推動這個法案的黃國昌委員他也領先民眾黨也提出了法案所以目前看起來在野黨已經有共識連法務部基本上都是贊成這個立法"},{"start":333.109,"end":358.815,"text":"那我想請問一下為什麼從2019年9月提報行政院審查之後目前召開11次會議審查拖了4年多的時間那現在目前到底程序是卡在哪裡那因為行政院還繼續的來看還沒通過行政院院會是嗎當然如果要由行政院來提那當然要經過院會才會送到大院來"},{"start":360.752,"end":380.688,"text":"你覺得有什麼送過來的方式比較好?什麼送比較好?都可以啊 委員如果急著要提案的話 那我就問 因為已經在行政院審查的會議當中其實拖了4年時間 那到底是卡在什麼地方 有什麼反對的論點是什麼?那各界有不同的看法啦"},{"start":382.93,"end":410.505,"text":"我看到羅秉成政委回應七寶潛逃罪的修法他說被告犯罪重刑期很高根本不在乎七寶潛逃罪二到三年刑期所以對效力跟效果存疑那我想請問你認同這個說法嗎這也是考量之一可是基本上接下來你考量了羅秉成政委的說法之後我們的七寶潛逃罪你有什麼樣"},{"start":411.687,"end":437.757,"text":"的一個方向會說你覺得可以可以把他意見考量進去的很多方法啦你說把他提高刑度也許大家覺得喔這個很好但是要真正能夠落實你刑度高法官要判得下去然後刑法也不是唯一的方法而已每一個都是要用重刑來處罰那是不是能得到效果"},{"start":438.257,"end":450.646,"text":"所以法案上比例原則也要考慮進去嘛我看法很簡單啦就是說基本上你今天犯的本行跟棄保潛逃基本上他那個侵犯的法義是不相同的嘛 對不對"},{"start":451.704,"end":452.004,"text":"法務部長羅智強"},{"start":472.293,"end":492.51,"text":"目前根據最高檢察署的統計2018年迄今詐欺犯是高居各地檢察署收件案件之首是吧應該是那平均累計已經到75萬件那我想請問你平均的年增率達多少"},{"start":493.673,"end":513.927,"text":"我這邊數據是28啦那我想請問齁 就詐騙橫行這個創新高我們財損也不斷的創新高齁可是目前我們是判決有罪定業的詐欺犯齁這個大概是7萬人嘛 對不對那重刑3年以上大概是多少人?355人 對不對呃 我"},{"start":518.314,"end":531.291,"text":"也曾經回答過委員的質詢我也認為說確實判決的刑度是偏低的所以也請你這個一併考慮好不好在修法上一併考慮因為說真的詐騙已經變國恥了"},{"start":533.974,"end":551.959,"text":"實際上對詐騙已經是有點忍無可忍另外其實我也看到另外一個狀況就是說基本上除了詐欺的態樣也開始有一點點不太一樣因為現在詐欺之外也開始出現了很多對民眾肆虐控制拘禁妨礙自由的這些"},{"start":552.839,"end":553.7,"text":"你覺得到底是發生什麼事情?"},{"start":572.27,"end":599.099,"text":"這個是統計應該是防害自由的案件但是是不是跟詐欺有關聯當然這是不同的議題但是我要講的說確實我們在看到許多詐欺包括之前包括像那個青埔淡水對不對都發生而且很嚴重會造成就是有民眾死亡那像這種所謂的詐欺的形態伴隨拘禁跟防害自由的形態確實有增加嗎還是在你看起來沒有增加"},{"start":599.858,"end":600.078,"text":"主席"},{"start":622.098,"end":645.873,"text":"謝謝委員指教但剛剛提到就是說發生妨礙自由我們在刑法的修正上也有把他納進來了對於這種囚禁辦這個詐欺的案子他把人囚禁起來這個我們都已經立法把他修正了這也是大院支持的那將來未來的各種新型態需要再加這個刑法構成要件的話我們也很樂意馬上來修法是好感謝部長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149582","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149582","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbefc0d658ae5f9d49edc62c46c87ca327ff8ba9b0039caa7a605e24b27dc4653105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:23:05 - 12:28:10","影片長度":"00:05:05","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健康保險署、食品藥物管理署就「健保藥價調整，藥廠停產慢性病用藥之因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":305,"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:28:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T12:23:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1162,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時23分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關長官、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請薛部長及吳署長。"],["主席：請部長及署長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好。今天這個題目在此之前恐怕很多人都很關心、也都問過了，但我還是要請教一下，報載說年底恐怕會缺藥，將有600萬人無藥可用，甚至標題包括年底會有缺藥潮啦！600萬人沒有藥啦！年底會缺藥嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：事實上是你怎麼定義缺藥的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：聽聽部長的定義。"],["薛部長瑞元：如果缺藥講的是比較正確的定義，應該是國內都沒有辦法提供，這樣才稱為缺藥。"],["鍾委員佳濱：國內沒有辦法提供。"],["薛部長瑞元：不是某一家醫院、診所或藥局……"],["鍾委員佳濱：了解，當然我們關心的是在國內拿不到這個藥嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：國內拿不到這個藥就嚴重囉！是不是這樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這次都說缺藥的原因是藥品採購的調降幅度，譬如第一名是從2,500降到1,600，降幅是35%，第二名的乳癌用藥從36降到26，降幅是28%，第三名是胃潰瘍藥，從36降到26，也是降了27%。我們再往下看，降幅最大的，包括心血管、神經系統、抗感染的，請問需要用到這些項目的病患是否會受到影響呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：基本上不會，因為它都有替代的藥品。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都有替代的藥品？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是有人提到因為藥局怕被砍藥價就不進藥，也就是說藥局備藥、等醫生開處方，在3月31日之前備的藥在4月1日調降了，因為它怕被砍藥價就不再進了，會不會有這樣的事情發生？譬如空窗期拿不到藥，因為藥局不進了，會不會有這個情況？"],["薛部長瑞元：基本上這一段時間的利潤會稍微減少，原本它進藥時的成本可能是比較高，因為預期的藥價是比較高嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：現在藥價調降下來就會壓縮到它的利潤空間。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是只有這一段時間，因為它可以再與藥廠……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是過渡時間。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：未來它再進藥的成本也降低了、賣的藥價也低了。"],["薛部長瑞元：會降低。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最近很多相關醫事團體、藥廠聚集討論這件事情，有人提出，如果在臺灣製造藥品並給國產原料藥藥品適當價格保護會不會避免斷藥？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們目前就是要做這件事情，譬如有一些專利過期，可以讓國產能夠製造。如果是原料藥的部分，使用的是國產的原料藥，我們會讓它核價更高一點。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們已經往這個方向研議了？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，很好。另外，我們舉例，軟便劑只剩一家藥廠願意生產，它是很簡單的一個氧化鎂，1顆才2元，人家說是糖果價、地板價，再砍一次，到了醫院再砍一次，廠商說現在1顆剩8毛。目前這個藥證有5張，也就是國內有5家藥廠在生產，應該說是有資格生產、有許可生產，但是只有一家願意生產，這樣會不會有危險性啊？只剩一家在生產，萬一它認為不划算也不做了，這樣會不會斷藥？"],["薛部長瑞元：關於這個部分，我向委員解釋一下，因為氧化鎂已經是OTC的藥，也就是指示用藥。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：按照規則，它本來就會一直砍一直砍下來，但是後來因為缺藥，而且這個藥還是好用……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不可或缺。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我們現在已經調升它的價格，而且給予它保護了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果藥證有限，這些藥廠願意生產的藥或有資格生產的藥廠，我們就要很小心地把它保住嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很怕它一時打個噴嚏就不生產，病患就麻煩了，所以你們有在注意？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有人提出，稀缺藥證像剛剛那種只有5張或2張、3張，供應有限而且有臨床需求的藥物，不列入每年調價範圍。如果有人提出這個主張，你認為是否有助於避免斷藥？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有幫助，所以你們會評估？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們現在就往這方面做處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後我有2個訴求，針對剛剛那兩個訴求，在臺製造藥品並使用國產原料藥藥品給予適當價格保護，請你們分析它對藥品供應的影響，3個月內提出書面報告，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：同樣的，針對稀缺藥證或供應有限且有臨床需求之藥物不再列入每年調價的範圍，請你們也分析這個對於藥品供應的影響，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一樣在3個月內提供給本席及本委員會。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的質詢，接下來請林憶君委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-4","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","林德福","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","李彥秀","林淑芬","黃健豪","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","林憶君","劉建國","陳瑩","楊曜","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健康保險署、食品藥物管理署就「健保藥價調整，藥廠停產慢性病用\n藥之因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.177218750000002,"end":16.129718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.05784375,"end":18.711593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.79971875,"end":38.134718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.72534375,"end":42.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.84721875,"end":44.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.12534375,"end":44.142218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.159093750000004,"end":44.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.85096875,"end":59.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.17909375,"end":52.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.15346875,"end":53.524718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.000968750000006,"end":75.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.34221875,"end":61.118468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.05284375000001,"end":92.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.06284375,"end":96.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.03284375000001,"end":103.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.24346875,"end":98.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.28471875000001,"end":113.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.53221875000001,"end":117.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.36284375000001,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.69471875,"end":127.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.21784375000001,"end":136.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.90909375,"end":132.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.51596875,"end":153.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.79846875,"end":138.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.89284375,"end":156.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.96846875,"end":157.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.71096875,"end":158.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.04409375,"en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那我們來看一下這次因為都說缺藥的原因是因為我們把藥品的採購的調降幅度嘛比如說第一名的他從這個2500降到1600降幅35%第二名的乳癌從36降到26降28%第三名是胃潰瘍從36降到26也是降27%那好 那我們再往下看降幅最大的包括心血管、神經系統、抗感染的請問需要用到這些項目的病患他會不會受到影響呢"},{"start":93.584,"end":103.377,"text":"這基本上不會因為他都有都有這一個替代的藥品都替代藥品是的好但是有人提到說因為藥局怕被砍藥價就不禁藥"},{"start":104.349,"end":126.998,"text":"那就是包括藥局在備藥啊等醫生開處方啊那3月30日前備的藥好事業藥調降了那因為他怕被砍掉他就不再進了會不會有這樣的事情發生比如說空中拿不到藥他就不進了會不會有這樣的情況他就基本上利潤會稍微減少在這一段時間因為他原來進藥的時候的成本可能是比較高因為預期的藥價是比較高是的"},{"start":127.998,"end":151.906,"text":"現在藥價調降下來所以會壓縮到他的利潤空間但是只有在一段時間因為他就可以再跟那個藥廠再去就是說這是過渡時間啦就是未來他再進藥的成本也降低了賣的藥價也低了好那開始呢我們我想最近很多的相關醫事團體藥廠他們就聚集在討論這個事情那有人提出說如果在臺灣製造藥品並給國產的"},{"start":154.926,"end":155.967,"text":"我們希望說有一些專利過期的話那可以讓這個國產能夠來製造"},{"start":172.558,"end":197.821,"text":"如果是原料藥的這個部分的話使用的是國產的原料我們會再讓它合價更高一點所以你們已經往這個方向有在研議了好很好那另外呢比如說我們舉例啦齁所謂的這個軟便劑只剩下藥廠願意生產它是很簡單的一個氧化酶嘛一顆才兩塊錢人家說是糖果價、地板價再砍一次到醫院再砍一次廠商說現在一顆剩八毛那目前呢這個藥證有五張"},{"start":199.542,"end":201.063,"text":"所以本來他就按照規則的話就會一直砍一直砍下來"},{"start":228.76,"end":252.995,"text":"但是後來因為有這個缺藥而且這個藥的確還是好用所以我們現在已經調升它的價格而且給它保護了那所以這個就是說類似像剛剛說的藥證藥證如果有限這些藥廠願意生產的藥或有這個藥廠就要很小心的把它保住嘛很怕它一時打個噴嚏它就不生產了那病患就麻煩了你們有在注意啦"},{"start":253.715,"end":273.394,"text":"所以有人提出說稀缺藥證像剛剛那種只有5張或只有2張3張的供應有限而且臨場需求的藥物不列入每年調價範圍你說如果有人提出這個主張有沒有有助於避免斷藥應該是有有助於所以你們會評估對我們現在就往這一方面來做處理所以最後我就兩個訴求"},{"start":275.596,"end":298.133,"text":"針對剛剛那兩個訴求在臺製造藥品並使用國產原料藥品給予適當的價格保護請你們分析他對藥品供應的影響三個月內提出一個書面報告可以嗎?那同樣的對於稀缺的藥證或供應有限且有臨場需求的藥物不再列入每年調教的範圍請你們也分析一下這對藥品供應的影響好不好?一樣在三個月內提供給本席和委員會好謝謝部長謝謝署長找錯了應該是找了好謝謝鍾佳濱"}]}},{"id":"149581","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149581","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe466e7a605e3888773ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a602758f09c82f6d575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:19:40 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沒有我說你有沒有跟管物價的副院長報告 沒有我說你們都這麼輕忽電價對物價上漲的這個推升的可能造成通貨膨脹啊你們都不怕嗎整個行政院現在大家是怎麼樣呢"},{"start":210.931,"end":225.537,"text":"每個人在數饅頭等著過日子嗎?到了520可能我就拜拜 Sayonara那還是說有些想辦法再去找什麼位置那我請問你啊為什麼關鍵原物料黃小玉"},{"start":226.357,"end":227.037,"text":"每次漂浮以百分之三為上限。"},{"start":255.939,"end":282.958,"text":"以前就告訴我們這次為什麼要到10%呢?所以以前的相關的規定是SOGA嗎?不是委員也知道那現在這樣惡霧戰爭之後不是只有台灣全世界都有這個燃料大漲的問題你們又把惡霧戰爭拿出來了這個是事實啊部長當時大家跟你講我們能源政策不能全部都靠天然氣啊因為天然氣佔的比例50%嘛"},{"start":284.859,"end":297.329,"text":"你說我們可以買到天然的能源我們可以買到便宜的天然氣可以買到便宜的能源便宜在哪裡若便宜現在怎麼還會這樣子呢如果當時是百分之三回上線百分之三回上線就是告訴你我們呢要給我們的業者也好或者給我們消費者一個緩衝空間現在沒有緩衝啊沖天炮"},{"start":314.298,"end":332.706,"text":"一下就要調10%我告訴你喔,到了今年夏天大家會很有感從去年開始,去年沒有調民生用電好多人就跟我反應說,夏天的電價好貴喔所以你們是選後之後都無所謂了對不對選前假裝選後呢螺絲掉滿地怎麼會這樣子所以我在這邊鄭重要求"},{"start":343.753,"end":350.756,"text":"電價是經濟部的問題但是因為它推升是整個相關的產業跟民生消費物價你趕快回去敲醒鄭文燦敲醒陳建仁你們要趕快開跨部會會議"},{"start":359.824,"end":360.104,"text":"不是這樣子"},{"start":380.976,"end":391.547,"text":"所以我在這邊我覺得我們今天的報告非常好就是告訴你對產業對民生衝擊是什麼立法院都這麼在乎行政院不要再掉以輕心謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149580","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149580","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbedb5631403ba71df6aaa95e40c3cff622f8ba9b0039caa7a60436e44e2df3ed965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"12:12:40 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謝謝主席部長午安委員好首先我先感謝我們法務部檢察司這次幫忙協調有關這次律師的基礎訓因為報名名額的關係我們名額開只開810個今年大概有將近1000人報名"},{"start":29.926,"end":52.435,"text":"那所以因為這個這個你一年如果說沒這個基礎訓沒有辦法再延一年就對對每一個這個律師都來這個新科律師來講都是生涯規劃的一個很大的影響啊那我們感謝這個那個檢查檢查室跟這個全聯會齁這是積極協調會確認是不是我們確認在第6提次會加開原額是加開原額但是現在"},{"start":59.127,"end":87.23,"text":"我看到的這只有原則啦原則會加開原應該會在今年都會讓他們完訓但是具體的場地時間規劃通知都還沒有收到啦齁那這部分是不是請我們能夠盡快的作業讓這個確保考生這些考生我們要給他們公平的對待跟這個善盡告知的義務希望說是不是能夠我們能夠盡快的把這個"},{"start":88.251,"end":88.371,"text":"對,這個是比較大"},{"start":107.349,"end":121.869,"text":"再來就是說明年度是不是不要再發生類似的情況我們在預算的編列上面在計畫上面看起來都是比較保守不過跟委員說明這個是全立會他們是"},{"start":123.231,"end":123.371,"text":"主席"},{"start":149.844,"end":176.605,"text":"那接下來齁我看今天早上大家各每一個委員質詢大概都最關心都是這個這個詐騙案啦齁有關這個詐騙案的這個相關的這個辦理那這個為什麼這麼多委員會關心這個這顯然這個這個在台灣這個民意齁大家都已經認為說台灣的這個這個詐騙案件齁是已經是相當的嚴重了包括每一個人的個人生活經驗裡面都多少會收到啦齁"},{"start":177.846,"end":204.017,"text":"大概我們包括我們這個剛剛所講的這些檢察檢察官助理這些等等這些相關的人士編織這些部長大概早上都已經做了說明我這邊就不再重複詢問了問題是這個部長是不是能夠讓大家知道瞭解說目前像我知道說目前這些這個我們的這個這些詐騙案件齁這個還有包括這些這個"},{"start":208.084,"end":226.313,"text":"暴力妨礙自由等等這些相關的案件的不起訴處分的這個比率好像相當的高將近到七成不起訴處分那這個在實務上面他到底最大的困難是在哪裡"},{"start":227.924,"end":248.604,"text":"當然就是證據上的問題,那很多詐騙他的手腕也不斷的翻新,那有些被告的辯解,那有時候我們沒辦法去找到證據來跟我...這個部分就是一般民眾大家所不解的地方"},{"start":250.12,"end":261.328,"text":"人家說道高一尺謀高一丈但是我們我們是應該要謀高一尺道高一丈這些手法不斷的翻新沒有錯每次都有新型態的尤其是這個在現在的這個這個通訊詐騙上面這個"},{"start":266.838,"end":294.666,"text":"當然它會有一些新的形態的詐騙我們每針對一個形態我們去破解之後它會有一些新的形態那最重要就是這個現在因為它又牽涉到第三方支付又牽涉到虛擬貨幣又牽涉到這些通訊平台這些網路的這些詐欺這些部分上面在舉證上面目前我們應該是要我們不能說因為形態新的所以我們雙手一攤說這個現在實在犯罪形態"},{"start":295.606,"end":325.306,"text":"更新我們政府沒有辦法很抱歉大家自己小心這個不管怎麼樣也不是這個態度吧是所以我們這個這個這個部分我們是不是能夠在包括說現在我們跟這些相關的這些通訊平台上面有什麼樣司法上面我們有跟他們什麼樣的協議那有哪一些平台是能有跟我們這個我們國家司法單位司法跟警察單位合作有哪一些平台是沒有到目前為止沒有辦法取得他們的協助的"},{"start":326.307,"end":327.728,"text":"我看到這個111年行政院有公布這個詐騙目前"},{"start":352.285,"end":378.238,"text":"這個前三名大概第一名是這個假網路拍賣這個是第一名第二名是投資詐欺第三名是解除分期付款的詐欺112年有沒有統計我們現在新型態的這個我們現在112年已經過了過去的這一年我們的這個相關的這些這些詐騙案件他的類型他的成長案件數的成長我們有沒有做統計"},{"start":379.478,"end":401.074,"text":"我們把各類型有做一個分析哪個單位能夠調查局看看手邊有沒有這樣的分析但是他的形態他們有收集你們有沒有相關的統計跟委員報告因為我們調查局所處理的大概是比較"},{"start":403.223,"end":403.343,"text":"這個這個這個不用"},{"start":420.327,"end":436.545,"text":"我希望能夠看到像這個111年度行政院所發布這樣子的統計就是我們的相關不同類型的詐欺案件它的成長它的這個數字的消長這樣子會有利於這個這個我們掌握目前這個詐欺犯罪他們的這個形態跟宣導"},{"start":437.926,"end":458.092,"text":"我們以電話局處理的案件為例就是我們從111年的6月到112年的6月那我們處理的最多的應該是投資型的詐欺案件這差不多佔了75%投資型的那另外還有這個戀愛型的詐騙案件他大概是佔10%"},{"start":460.313,"end":469.042,"text":"那剩下的還有一些是假冒公務單位、檢察官或法官的這種詐騙案件你是不是會後能夠做一個統計數字給我"},{"start":475.27,"end":499.223,"text":"我想這個還是在目前這個包括這個剛剛也很多委員提到這個相關詐欺這些所得金額的這些查扣的部分我們現在目前這個在查扣動作上面都有一些問題這個是一般大概受害者最詬病的地方這部分希望我們這個法務部能夠跟這個"},{"start":500.484,"end":521.597,"text":"司法院這邊齁大家能夠在這方面齁能夠做一些協調啦齁能夠阻斷這樣子他們的這個能夠讓這個查扣的金額能夠這個時間能夠加快啦好不好那另外齁這還在一點時間我這個這個請問一下目前這個有關齁我們現在立法院大家在談這個"},{"start":524.195,"end":549.527,"text":"國會調查權的問題這部分我看到我們法務部的態度當然是說尊重立法院我們自己對立法院的尊重但是事實上這個有關於牽涉到偵查不公開的部分司法進行中的案件的這些部分我想這個跟我們法務部有極大的相關過去大法官也做了"},{"start":550.387,"end":567.978,"text":"三次的解釋有關於這個調查權跟這個我們現在正正辦中的司法案件他的相關的這些這些憲法的解釋這部分部長我是希望部長你除了尊重立法院以外齁因為這個東西不要立法院立出來之後然後大家再來爭執說你這個調查權跟"},{"start":570.697,"end":570.817,"text":"沈發惠"},{"start":592.959,"end":604.963,"text":"立法院的調查權是根據立法院的職權刑事法還有相關的規定所訂定的我們當然要尊重但是涉及到如果是還在偵查中的案件"},{"start":605.563,"end":631.635,"text":"那大法官的解釋也有說要保障檢查機關的獨立行使職權就是不能夠來要求我們在偵查中案件的一個提供相關的證據這個是應該是很清楚的這個部分在我希望說在未來因為我想在未來這段時間這個議題他還會在立法院繼續進行希望說我們法務部能夠就這個部分能夠表達我們這個實務上面"},{"start":634.036,"end":634.076,"text":"法務部長"}]}},{"id":"149579","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149579","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe6c167d259083369ef84c29b94b9165f0f8ba9b0039caa7a65378fc16f52fc0c15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:18:44 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12:23:23","影片長度":"00:04:39","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":279,"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:23:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T12:18:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":987,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時18分）謝謝主席，有請財政部長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，午安。時間有限，我快速向你請教。關於臺啤籃球隊長期沒有勞健保的問題，去年一整年有非常多立法委員都很關心，我們辦公室從去年10月3日就先與陳建仁院長討論過這個狀況，當時在10月18日的財政委員會也向部長質詢過相關的檢討及進度，部長的回應非常正向，10月25日我們還特地跑去衛環委員會與勞動部確定相關的關係，希望能協助臺啤釐清，總算在11月30日我們收到一個很棒的回文，財政部回文表示即將在2024年7月1日以臺啤籃球協會作為簽約與投保單位，我念得這麼刻意是想請部長給予正面的回應，這個消息是真的嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：投保這個部分，我們還要再與籃協做一個討論，也與勞動部再討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，確實還需要討論，但是我們可以期待7月1日全面換約這件事一定會如期發生，對嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有問題，全面換約沒問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長的回應。其實這整件事情當然還有更多更好的處理方法，不過我們真的要說，在公開的場合說，臺啤現在的這個狀況，擺脫過去長期被球迷詬病的部分，包含簽約的問題、勞健保的爭議，以及不再由顧問作為合約的甲方，也不用再讓球員自己去找職業工會投保，我要為這件事情再次公開謝謝部長及董事長，你們願意改革長期以來存在的問題，非常非常非常地困難，所以我要代表球員再次感謝財政部與董事長給予的相關回應。但是我們也要拜託財政部，如同剛剛也有委員問過，無論520之後你在不在這個位子上，都希望財政部可以緊盯臺啤要落實，讓我們看到這個報告的做法，可以嗎？這個部分可以請部長回應嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：關於落實的執行情形，可以給委員一個報告。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝，我們辦公室當然也會持續追蹤。","接下來要與部長快速討論一下，關於去年籃球假球事件的後續，我們知道財政部有2支球隊，即使在休會的期間，我們看到有很多工作與討論的會議都在進行，甚至還有媒體提到臺銀與臺酒期望建立防賭信託，這個部分之前也與部長在財政委員會討論過，林楚茵委員也問過這個題目，後續我們看到籃協副秘書長張承中表示這件事情可以參考棒球經驗，由工會來處理更為恰當，同時他也提到球隊對於參與提撥的部分也是有意願的。這邊我想與部長快速確認一下，目前臺銀在防賭信託的建立機制進度如何？"],["莊部長翠雲：報告委員，臺灣銀行以及我們菸酒公司都向籃協提案了，我們建議比照職棒成立職籃球員防賭信託基金，以及職籃球員簽約金的一個信託，讓我們保障球員退役後的生活，這個部分會持續與籃協進行溝通。我們也正式行文給籃協，兩家公司都正式行文了。"],["陳委員培瑜：已經正式行文了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：已經正式行文給籃協了。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為我們之前確認到的進度是臺銀打過2次電話，如果如同部長所說的已經正式行文，打算開啟相關的討論及後續的會議，我們辦公室也會持續追蹤，同時也要拜託財政部部長，請你也要加緊幫忙盯著，好嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，謝謝委員的協助。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後我們再確認一下，2支球隊是不是真的如同新聞中籃協所提到的，他們真的也有意願一起參與共同強化整個防賭機制，如同你剛剛說的，確實是有意願的，而且有相關的公文，也要開啟相關的討論，對嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊！"],["陳委員培瑜：最後就簡單地說明，我們要感謝部長的重視與支持，在這邊我要拜託部長、拜託所有的相關人員，由財政部責成臺灣銀行與球員工會進行討論，我們的希望目標是在2024年啟動籃球版本的球員防賭信託基金。第二個，關於所屬球隊，臺銀與臺啤，提撥信託基金的細節，我們希望可以在3個月內看到與球員工會開始進行討論。上面的工作進度因為時間的關係，可不可以在3個月內給立法院一個相關報告，當然也要給我們辦公室？"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長、謝謝董事長、謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員的質詢。","請麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員不在。","請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢，我們現在處理臨時提案，共計2案，請議事人員宣讀。","一、","臨時提案","案由：","台灣消費者從事海外網購交易頻繁，根據EZ 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1.4到了第三年才因為新的通膨超過3%"},{"start":131.297,"end":145.473,"text":"我們要知道前兩年沒有調高免稅額第三年才宣布要調高的時候請問是第三年嗎不是是最快第四年才可以申請第三年的年所得享受受調高的這一個部分這結果"},{"start":146.334,"end":165.295,"text":"我們累積了4年才超過3%到第5年才有可能到第4年享受調高的結果您懂我的意思嗎?了解那跟委員報告就是不是一年一年我們是用累積就是說比上一次調整累積超過3%不是一年看單一年度的3%對所以是累積嘛是用累積"},{"start":166.876,"end":177.22,"text":"拜託我們這樣發燒以後我們的貨幣政策財政政策就像退燒藥我們應該見急祭急啊我們應該結果通膨已經燒起來了結果你這個進火你沒有用進水來澆洗你要等到兩三年以後甚至是三四年四五年以後的原水來澆我想這樣子的一個法條"},{"start":196.067,"end":217.234,"text":"我們應該要適時的做一個調整我想您對於我的一個論述您覺得怎麼樣?您委員的論述我了解那我們也回去了解一下為什麼所得稅法當時這樣訂以及您的一個論述是不是可以納入我們的一個參考是不是容我們回去研議那您願意朝向苦民所苦的一個方向來"},{"start":219.495,"end":247.518,"text":"苦民所苦一致是我們努力在做的至於演繹的可行性我們要看結果是怎麼樣部長我真的是要為民拜託請託台灣飽受通膨之苦多少的企業公司倒的倒財源的財源減薪的減薪失業的失業多少薪水階級工作根本遭不保戲我們現在看到結果還有工作的人通膨已經打擊他申報眾所遂名目遂附"},{"start":247.918,"end":274.704,"text":"沒有降,實質的稅負卻增加了等到按法條終於可以調高免稅額扣除額等等的時候多少的上班族和公司行號早就已經陣亡了他們在等待調高的半路上我想真的是非常的辛苦本席在此建議修改所的稅法還有納稅者權利保護法採取逐年滾動式的一個做法每年多少通膨就調高多少的幅度我想這會很難嗎您覺得"},{"start":276.965,"end":294.939,"text":"除了免稅額跟扣除額之外那在納稅者保護法裡面還有一個基本生活費那個是每一年都在調整的就已經做適度的反應了就本期剛剛所提出整個論述我希望你能夠好好適時去做一個我們研議啦因為我覺得不會難啦"},{"start":295.64,"end":318.878,"text":"因為現在才3月,竹記總署已經將全年官方的通膨CPI都已經試算出來報稅是5月,財政部最少有兩個月時間打開程式和報稅軟體馬上就程式和軟體的一個適當處把該個年度的CPI數值輸入電腦馬上就可以算出當年度調整通膨的實質免稅額還有各項的一個扣除額我想這應該不困難吧"},{"start":320.559,"end":339.362,"text":"委員這個涉及到法律的修正。對,但是我說就實務面啊。法律的修正當然剛剛我們說的嘛我們苦民所苦我們去研議看看嘛但是實際上如果法律修正完以後它實際在我們的相關軟體當中它是直接可以改數值的。那法律修正完當然我們就按照法律的規定來做。"},{"start":340.263,"end":355.48,"text":"最後我想再請問因為我本身來自台中我想台中盧學院市長長期也在這個委員會有做一個相關的一個問政但我就台中來說財政劃分收支法在520之前您有辦法提出草案嗎?"},{"start":356.651,"end":359.012,"text":"五二零之後當然會有新政府"},{"start":374.656,"end":375.437,"text":"羅廷瑋委員的質詢接著陳佩瑜委員"},{"start":408.684,"end":408.928,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"149575","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149575","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbeeb6061b2fbd3e300f84c29b94b9165f0f8ba9b0039caa7a62adc72964e9d38b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:03:31 - 12:11:37","影片長度":"00:08:06","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":486,"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:11:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T12:03:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":928,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時3分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：也請國產署署長。"],["主席：請曾署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長辛苦了。首先要謝謝財政部還有國產署，針對本席在109年3月24號開始協調、質詢，針對原住民承租國有土地申請原住民保留地，在經過申請、核定，然後要緩收、免收、退還租金的這個部分，經歷了非常長的時間，終於由國產署辛苦地完成修正，財政部也在112年 10月4日修正發布國有非公用不動產出租管理辦法第28條，然後開始執行。國產署花蓮辦事處和臺東辦事處非常辛苦，辦了很多場的說明會，本席也儘可能去參加，去瞭解我們公部門和我們民眾的一些意見。","一開始你們希望提供所有的收據，就是過去繳稅的收據，這部分因為已經辦了好幾場，在這段時間已經退還的租金到底有多少，請提供書面資料。就我所知道的，只有一個八十幾歲的老太太將全部收據都留著，我所見到的是這樣，事實上這也很難啦，大家都一樣，不會一直把收據留存啦，所以我也開過協調會，請國產署看看要怎麼樣去解決這個問題。因為我是老公務員，也瞭解到電腦化是後來才有的，所以在電腦化之前的資料就有它的困難，但也不是不能解決，只是要花時間，這必須要部長能夠支持國產署，增加一些不是長期的人力，就只是這段時間的一些臨時人力給他們，這是我自己從公務員的角度來考量的這個部分，也就是把過去這些，最起碼要有租約、土地地號，從這個地號去查歷年的公告現值，就可以換算他的租金，然後怎麼樣去有效地退還。現職的公務員本來工作就很忙了，還要去做這個工作，我看了也是不太忍心，但是又不得不做，主要就是花蓮、臺東的辦事處，請教部長、署長可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員反映民眾的心聲，這個部分前面的辦法修了，後面的執行方式也訂了，最後就是在執行的時候，讓民眾可以更快速地拿到退還的租金。針對這個部分，國產署已經在研議一個方式，我是不是請署長來做一個便民的說明？"],["曾署長國基：報告委員，剛剛委員提到過有很多人可能收據都不見了，上一次也在委員那邊協調，就是由我們國產署現有的資料庫裡面，雖然有些租約可能都換約過了，我們會用追溯的方式，比如從現在的租約資料裡面可以調出來的，或是他上一次的租約資料也可以調出來，從這個租約裡面，就如剛剛委員講的，按照我們當時計收的一個標準是用公告地價，而每一年的公告地價的資料也都存在，我們會來核算，我想就以這個簡便、便民的方式。說實在話，有些要他拿10年、20年的資料，可能有他的困難性，我們就用既有的這些資料來核算；核算的結果，我們會通知這個申請人，對這樣的核算、計價結果是不是同意，如果同意，就作為退還的一個標準。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，非常謝謝。剛才提到人力的部分，如果真的有不足，還是要提供啦。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝，也請委員支持。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：另外，就是請你們定期，不用每個月，半年能夠提供一下辦理的情形。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們是不是把每一季的成果提供給委員。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：另外，很重要的就是緩收、免收的部分，其實最主要就是第一線的鄉鎮公所人員，要請他們協助，跟國產署辦事處那邊主動協助。主動協助跟國產署辦事處那邊，因為民眾不清楚，可能有些是新收的案件之類，這個部分的協調。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["鄭天財Sra kacaw委員：另外，關於退輔會的部分，我已經質詢過很多次了，部長、署長，其實我沒有求得很多，只要限收，我們就先限收好了，先限收原住民申請原住民保留地的案件，就先限收這個部分。屬於退輔會管理的部分，但是是原住民在使用，符合增劃編原住民保留地的條件者，先處理這個部分，這樣就很少了。你要請財政部國產署與原民會、退輔會討論，因為它確實是違反了國產法第三十九條的這三款，但是我們限收，不然就太大了。"],["主席：鄭委員，能否請曾署長會後再向你做進一步的補充說明？"],["鄭天財Sra kacaw委員：因為這個質詢過了，我們現在只要將這個限收，可以吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢。","接著請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","王世堅","王鴻薇","賴惠員","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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素面資料那我所知道的只有一個80幾歲的老太太"},{"start":167.162,"end":181.071,"text":"他全部的收據都留著只有一個我所見到的是這樣其他的事實上這很難大家也是一樣不會一直把收據留存所以我也開過協調會請國產署"},{"start":184.639,"end":184.779,"text":"國產署 國產部長"},{"start":209.916,"end":221.011,"text":"提供一些不是長期的人力,階段時間的一些臨時的人力給他們。這是我自己從公務員的角度來去考量這個部分。"},{"start":222.433,"end":241.924,"text":"就是把這些過去因為租約啦最起碼租約租約有土地地號嘛然後這個從這個地號然後歷年的公告限值就可以換算他的租金所以然後怎麼樣去有效的退還就不會讓這個"},{"start":245.301,"end":261.258,"text":"現職現在的公務員他本來工作就很忙了還要去做這個我看了也是不太忍心但是一不得不做所以這個部分這個給部長還有署長因為主要就是花蓮台東的辦事處了這個部分可以嗎"},{"start":262.729,"end":280.145,"text":"謝謝委員反映民眾的心聲我想這個部分前面的辦法修了後面的執行方式也定了最後就是在執行的時候讓民眾可以更快速的拿到退還的租金我想這個部分國產署已經在研議一個方式我是不是請署長來做一個辨明的說明好"},{"start":283.439,"end":298.713,"text":"報告委員剛剛委員提到過有很多人可能收據都不見了那上一次也在委員那邊協調就是由我們國產署現有的資料庫裡面包括過雖然有些租約可能都換約過了但我們會用追溯的"},{"start":299.153,"end":299.714,"text":"委員會提供財政委員會財政委員會"},{"start":314.774,"end":341.636,"text":"在每一年的公告計價的資料也都存在那我們會來核算我想以這個簡便辨明的方式說實在的有些要他拿10年20年的資料可能有他的困難性那我們就用既有的這些資料來核算那核算的結果我們會通知這個申請人到底對這樣的核算的這個計價的結果是不是同意如果同意就作為一個退還的一個標準"},{"start":342.469,"end":351.386,"text":"好,非常謝謝。這個剛才能力的部分如果車輪有不足還是要提供好,謝謝,也請委員支持另外就是說這個"},{"start":353.479,"end":373.56,"text":"您們定期不要說每年不用每個月半年能夠提供一下這個辦理的情形好我們把那個成果是不是每一季提供給委員把我們的成果對另外就是說很重要的就是有關緩收、免收的部分就是要"},{"start":375.857,"end":403.413,"text":"這主要就是其實是要讓這個鄉鎮公所第一線的鄉鎮公所的人員要請他們協助主動協助跟國產署辦事處那邊因為民眾不清楚然後有的新說的案件之類的這個部分的協調那另外這個我已經執行過很多次了這個退伍會的部分我們好像有簽過跟大家沒幾次嘛"},{"start":403.993,"end":430.394,"text":"部長、署長其實我沒有求的很多我只要限收我們就先限收好了先限收原住民申請原住民保留地的案件就先限收在這邊就是說屬於退伍會管理的"},{"start":431.437,"end":453.967,"text":"所屬於退府會管理的部分但是是原住民在使用它符合真化邊原住民保留地的條件的先處理這個部分就很少了所以你要請財政部國常署跟延民會還有退府會"},{"start":456.094,"end":457.915,"text":"謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢。接著我們請羅廷惟委員質詢。"},{"start":485.746,"end":485.767,"text":"好!謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"149574","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149574","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe46d9b56a9c831c48f84c29b94b9165f0f8ba9b0039caa7a6d6f935e5ba50cb3a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:54:55 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data，我把2021年、2022年、2023年的，全部都試算出來啦！講空話，說地方政府沒共識！連垂直分配不均的問題，問你試算出來了沒有，都還沒有開始試算！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，持續都在做試算的工作……"],["黃委員國昌：持續都在做試算？好，沒關係……"],["莊部長翠雲：它會變動……"],["黃委員國昌：不要說空話，今天會議結束後，把你們到此時此刻試算的結果給我，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，我們要看一下資料的情況。"],["黃委員國昌：你剛剛不是說持續地在試算嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊！"],["黃委員國昌：那麼手上應該有數字啦，會後提供給我，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分，我們還是需要審慎地研議。"],["黃委員國昌：我請你給我試算的結果，你要研議什麼？研議這個試算的結果正不正確，回去重新打計算機嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會啦，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：所以，會後把試算的結果給我可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們看一下內容……"],["主席：我想你給委員一個時間會比較好。"],["黃委員國昌：一個月可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：一個月我們給。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢。","接著請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","接著請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員也不在。","接著請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","王世堅","王鴻薇","賴惠員","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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所以我才請兩位董事長上來 不要浪費時間啊目前沒有為什麼沒有 可以不求償喔放手打假球喔為什麼可以不求償 說個道理跟大家講因為是老長官 官官相護"},{"start":154.147,"end":170.999,"text":"我們是刑事案件有刑事案件附帶民事的求償求償多少錢沒有限定的金額怎麼可能沒有限定的金額你要提民事訴訟要求償沒有限定的金額那我先問你啊你們主持多少錢"},{"start":172.65,"end":176.553,"text":"跟國營報告是15億15億來議員損失多少錢?請勿按請勿按的部分代表是57億57億15億的有球場57億的沒有球場 來來來損失15億的講清楚球場多少錢"},{"start":198.057,"end":207.211,"text":"欸不好意思董事長我在問你問題欸損失15億的球場多少錢那個您上來不是在上面打坐我請問你問題要請你回答"},{"start":211.53,"end":238.006,"text":"沒關係啦!我現在問題點出來了齁請兩家銀行的董事長回去準備書面資料回答兩個問題第一個有沒有球場?如果沒有球場理由是什麼?第二個有沒有進行假扣押?有沒有進行財產的保全?要不然官司打多久?等到判決確定了以後全部脫廠脫得乾乾淨淨的拿債權憑證回家要幹嘛?這兩件事情兩位董事長可以承諾可以做到嗎?"},{"start":240.852,"end":252.109,"text":"應該可以吧沒有這麼複雜吧是不是可以請兩位董事長回答請兩位董事長用麥克風回答這個我們會再跟委員回報另外一位董事長"},{"start":253.49,"end":282.329,"text":"我想我們目前是對借戶在球場之中那對於董事長借戶在球場?你的借戶是誰啊?我們的借戶就是慶富跟這個球場的大嗎?目前還在執行中那對嘛!你執行的多少錢?目前執行中的部分大概十來億啦收回五十七億!快五十七億!收回的部分有二十二億"},{"start":283.427,"end":292.254,"text":"所以現在到底多少錢?還有30幾億沒有追?對嘛!你還有5、7億沒有追嘛!可以這樣放水喔?來請部長是委員你倆在野的時候都說要修財政收支劃分法蘇貞昌說2012年批判得很嚴重喔說"},{"start":308.41,"end":336.07,"text":"那個時候要求要修財化法看到這些縣市編不出預算嗷嗷待哺米缸空空的心裡很難過我不曉得現在的行政院院長會不會體會到地方政府現在的心情然後在新德2018年當行政院院長的時候他也承諾要修財化法到現在2024年持續跳票持續跳票"},{"start":337.691,"end":360.12,"text":"民進黨執政了以後享受到了錢跟錢一把抓的滋味財化法不斷的上懷沒有下文部長一直說你要凝聚各縣市的共識我先問兩個基本的問題第一個垂直分配不均的問題"},{"start":361.82,"end":386.213,"text":"統籌分配款規模太低不管是民進黨執政、國民黨執政、民進黨在野、國民黨在野所有的學者專家大家點出來的問題都一樣針對目前民進黨政府針對垂直分配不均的問題因為我先不跟你扯水平分配的問題要不然你又推給地方政府沒有共識啦沒有辦法修啦你去年五月的縮詞到現在"},{"start":387.754,"end":407.031,"text":"一模一樣從來沒改變過我去查過了所以我繼續在聽你說要等社會共識或各界事業共識沒有意義啦我們先處理隨時分配不均的問題依在目前財政部規劃的版本就擴大統籌分配款的規模目前的規劃方案是什麼"},{"start":408.198,"end":427.034,"text":"跟委員報告啊怎麼樣就是所謂的垂直分配擴大統籌分配稅款的規模這個確實是我們在在研議過程當中的一個方向目前研議的結果是什麼那這個部分都需要試算都需要試算試算出來了沒有中央跟地方這幾年的財政變化也很大所以試算出來了沒有目前沒有"},{"start":428.525,"end":441.12,"text":"你從什麼時候開始試算?這個部分因為一直在變動一直在變動大部分不會啊你看我沒有你們的data欸我2021年、2022年、2023年的我全部都試算出來啦"},{"start":442.715,"end":464.972,"text":"講空話!地方政府沒共識!連隨時分配不均的問題問你試算出來了沒有?還沒有開始試算欸!呃,各位報告,持續的都在做試算的工作。持續都在做事,啊沒關係!不要再開話!今天或後以後,把你們到目前此時此刻試算的結果給我可以嗎?"},{"start":466.153,"end":486.794,"text":"這個部分我們要看一下資料的一個...剛剛你不是說持續的在試算嗎?那手上應該有數字啦!會後提供給我可不可以?我想這個部分我們還是需要審慎的研議,對請你給我試算的結果你要研議什麼?研議這個試算的結果這麼正確回去重新打計算機嗎?不會的,我們...那所以會後把試算的結果給我可以嗎?"},{"start":487.755,"end":493.159,"text":"市長給個時間給個時間給個時間一個月可以嗎一個月我們給好謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢接著我們請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在所以我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員也不在接著我們請鄭天才委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"149573","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149573","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe96e322bc81181bc3f84c29b94b9165f0f8ba9b0039caa7a6f142c201840b90755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:47:56 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Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:36:07 - 11:47:32","影片長度":"00:11:25","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":685,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:47:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:36:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":773,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時36分）主席好，有請財政部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。我提供一個表格，是2023年國內各家銀行的自結營收，我們可以看得到，我們的公股行庫的EPS每股盈餘的績效其實並不是最頂尖的，但是我們也看到IMF國際貨幣基金組織有一個報告提到，各國的公共銀行不僅僅是在金融危機的時候協助穩定金融，甚至是在疫情的時候承擔紓困放款，也比一般的銀行吃重，也就是說，擁有一個穩定的公共銀行體系，對於金融弱勢者的保障或公共政策的達成，都會有正面的助益。所以想請教部長，你是不是認同這一段話？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，我們公股銀行常常擔負著國家的政策任務。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長。星期一金管會也是來這邊備詢，當時我有特別去介紹原住民保留地的困境，在我國，私有的原保地大概有13萬公頃，但是有一個困境，也就是說，地主到銀行去貸款的時候會被拒絕，而且一般都是用市場鑑價，這類地卻被採取公告現值，實際上，這類地到了地下市場，價值其實滿高的，流通性也很高，我覺得我們銀行常常會落入一個刻板印象，銀行看了原基法的規定，看了山坡地保育利用條例的規定，認為這類地的流通性很低，所以他們會覺得，這類地作為擔保品，會讓他們承擔比較高的風險，所以承貸的意願很低。那怎麼辦呢？既然我們原住民到正規銀行求貸無門，就有很多都只能去找私人的當舖，結果也搞不清楚利率多少會產生怎麼樣的債務關係，所以到最後都是他的不動產被拍賣，他的原保地被拍賣，然後用非常低的價格流落到市場去，這是一個惡性循環，也是導致原住民沒有辦法做事業的一個困境。我們長期以來也關心這個問題，我知道去年10月財政部國庫署有召開一個原保地貸款鑑價會議，我長期以來也都很關心，部長，對於原保地的鑑價，您怎麼看？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，因為原保地的承受人必須是原住民，承受的對象有受限制，所以銀行在提供貸款的時候，用原保地做擔保就會有一些困難，假設要實行抵押權的時候，這個原保地也沒有辦法移轉到銀行，所以銀行在做原保地的抵押貸款的時候，確實有卻步。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這就是我們的困境。"],["莊部長翠雲：另外也跟委員報告，其實原住民有一個綜合發展基金，在這個基金裡面，有一筆基金是委託我們公股行庫在做貸款，這就是原民基金。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：原民會會做信保。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是依舊有所謂的擔保品。部長，我現在是問您說，原保地去做鑑價，您怎麼看？我不知道您知不知道這個會議內容。"],["莊部長翠雲：我知道，原保地的鑑價當然是因為幾個因素，第一個是流通性的問題，所以鑑價就會受到一些限制，金管會黃主委那一天也有回復委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，他給我的答復是很正向的。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，他也說會請銀行公會研究以原保地作為擔保品的可行性及如何鑑價，這個部分我們可以協同金管會一起來就這個部分進行一些討論，如果金管會訂出一定的規則，那我們的公股行庫當然可以循這個規則來處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝，部長，我多次在會議聽到的讓我有點傷心，因為可能會聽到公股行庫說一些話，例如：他們要為全民股東負責，他們要賺錢。但是為什麼我一開始會問您，就是公股行庫有社會責任也好，有使命也好，您也很認同嘛。所以我希望大家對於原保地鑑價，或者是未來我們的公股行庫能不能夠接收原保地貸款這件事情，要有一個正面、積極的態度，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：可以，我們會遵循金管會最後的規範。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我就先拋磚引玉，我希望財政部可以提出更好的解方。第一個，我希望我們的八家公股銀行可以帶頭承作，甚至是去制定一些政策性的專案貸款。第二個，我當然希望財政部增加公股行庫承作的誘因，舉個例子來說，如果公股行庫願意承作原保地貸款，是不是可以在進行董事長、總經理的評鑑時給他們加分？又或是參考紐西蘭的做法，就是要去建立一個原保地的鑑價系統，因為其實原保地並沒有那麼不值錢，與特定的銀行合作，給予我們部落族人應有的金融服務，我希望部長帶回去研議，也能夠比照金管會所說的，希望可以遵照本席建議的方向，提出一些對策跟可行性，在兩個月內給予回復，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：可以，謝謝委員，是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：為什麼我這樣講？因為我們原住民其實都沒有辦法貸款來蓋房子，所以有10萬就蓋一間廁所，再有個50萬，就幫孩子蓋一間新房，所以那個房子都長得古里古怪。像紐西蘭，他們也是跟我們一樣，因為毛利人的土地貸款其實也有一樣的困境，可是他們會去做一些專案，像我說的這塊土地，上面有24戶人家要蓋房子，政府就讓銀行幫他們辦理一個專案的貸款計畫，我希望未來部長也可以鼓勵銀行來做這樣的專案，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝您。","我們也知道，我們的政策金融、永續金融、普惠金融，長期以來是受到重視的，我希望未來原民友善這個部分也能夠列入考量，像我們看到新聞說，第一金、兆豐金、臺企銀6月可能會有改選，我希望未來的人選是對的，人對了，事情就會對了，請都來考量，好嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：為什麼我很關心這個問題？其實2005年原住民基本法出來了之後，有一個部分是要做原住民自治，可是談了這麼多年，大家都不知道要怎麼做，所以我一直希望我們原住民的土地可以活化利用，未來最重要的就是要有財源的自主，所以我想要請教一下部長，因為我看到這一次院會質詢中，部長有允諾會來修財劃法，對嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，財劃法的部分，我們目前來徵詢意見，然後我們要凝聚共識。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：何時會送進立法院？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分當然要看共識什麼時候能夠把距離縮到最小，然後形成一個共識，在這個情況下來推動。委員知道，在101年曾經有一個財劃法的修正案送到立法院，但是因為地方政府各有不同的意見，最後也就沒有修法成功。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以意思就是說要有共識才有可能？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，對，因為這涉及到地方的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：版本已經有了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，因為目前我們還要再討論。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我其實是要關心一個問題，在這25年當中，地制法已經做過15次修正，我們的兩都都已經變六都了，那我不知道部長您知不知道，我們直轄市合併之後，原住民鄉就變成原住民區，一度失去公法人地位，引起譁然，所以在4年之後的2014年馬上又修法改回，讓原民區具有部落公法人地位。我現在想要說，如果我們去做財劃法的修正，在擬訂草案期間，財政部有沒有跟關係機關開會？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們有跟相關機關開會，但是到直轄市和縣市，沒有……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，那部長您就知道我想問的，為什麼沒有跟鄉（鎮、市）公所開會？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，目前鄉（鎮、市）公所有198個，相當多，縣市應該去收集鄉（鎮、市）的意見，一起來向中央反映，這個很重要。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，很重要，但是縣市他們只會關心直轄市跟縣市政府要均一，土地面積要納入，可能就只討論他們關心的議題。為什麼我這樣講？我們的財劃法第八條有規定，財政部有一些工作是與鄉（鎮、市）有關的，所以財政部不是不能為，而是不作為。為什麼我這樣講？因為以縣市合併之後的原民區區公所來講，你應該很清楚，合併之前，他們的稅課收入是70%，可是合併之後整併，他們的稅課收入是0%。我要說的是，重點是2014年修地制法的時候寫得很清楚，直轄市區內山地鄉改制者是地方自治團體，準用鄉（鎮、市）的規定，而且當年第八十三條也有提到，原住民區的財政是自治的，所以未來財劃法修正，絕對需要跟合併之後的直轄市原民區公所來開會，聽取意見，部長，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：關於這個部分，原民區的意見也非常重要，我們可以來聽取。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為他們地位很特別，現在就變得很尷尬，也就是說，他們也沒有比以前更好，所以至少跟他們開會，聽取意見，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們聽取意見是應該的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我下一次會繼續來問進度，我希望至少要針對這個部分去跟他們溝通。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢。","接下來請謝衣鳯委員質詢。並提醒列委員，有5加1的時間。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","王世堅","王鴻薇","賴惠員","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","羅明才","陳玉珍"],"page_start":323,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公股代\n表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.00534375,"end":2.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.945343750000001,"end":9.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.18971875,"end":63.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.44284375000001,"end":69.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.37034375,"end":69.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.43784375,"end":69.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.97784375,"end":92.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.11346875000001,"end":93.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.56471875000001,"end":109.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.61721875,"end":126.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.30659375,"end":179.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.74534375000002,"end":220.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.10409375,"end":209.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.54096875000002,"end":221.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.34659375,"end":221.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.43096875,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.49846875,"end":222.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.42534375000002,"end":230.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.03284375,"end":265.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.08534375000002,"end":248.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.03659375,"end":261.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.52971875000003,"end":457.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.57034375,"end":304.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.42846875000004,"end":426.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.36909375000005,"end":428.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.02284375000005,"end":458.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.81159375000004,"end":459.03096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.03096875000006,"end":464.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.66721875,"end":464.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.73471875,"end":494.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.40784375000004,"end":477.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.18721875000006,"end":486.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.89159375,"end":488.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.45159375000003,"end":535.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.19471875,"end":518.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.0359687499999,"end":542.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.43159375,"end":542.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.96721875,"end":543.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.0347187500001,"end":543.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.96284375,"end":544.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.0303437499999,"end":544.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.9753437500001,"end":545.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.02596875,"end":545.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.9709687500001,"end":546.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.03846875,"end":562.2722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.82221875,"end":553.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.0447187500001,"end":560.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.39909375,"end":608.5772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.6459687500001,"end":573.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.19596875,"end":591.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.43221875,"end":591.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.6953437500001,"end":641.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.0278437500001,"end":650.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.60909375,"end":648.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.96721875,"end":651.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.36784375,"end":653.1103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.7222187500001,"end":654.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.0678437500001,"end":655.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":655.13534375,"end":656.6203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.4053437499999,"end":674.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.2278437500001,"end":657.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.64096875,"end":659.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.65596875,"end":671.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.3559687500001,"end":680.0090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.89034375,"end":684.3797187499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":2.692,"text":"有請財政部長有請莊部長委員好部長好我這邊有提供一個表格它是去年2023年國內各家銀行的字節營收我們可以看得到我們的公股、行庫"},{"start":23.792,"end":48.724,"text":"他的EPS每股盈餘的績效其實並不是最頂尖的但是我們也看到ANF國際貨幣基金組織他有一個報告他提到說各國的公共銀行不僅僅是在金融危機的時候協助穩定金融甚至是在疫情的時候承擔紓困放寒也比一般的銀行吃重"},{"start":49.304,"end":63.151,"text":"也就是說擁有一個穩定的公共銀行體系對於金融弱勢者的保障或公共政策的達成都會有正面的注意所以想請教部長你是不是認同這段話"},{"start":64.654,"end":91.932,"text":"是的 我們公股銀行常擔負著國家的一個政策任務好 謝謝部長星期一金管會也是來這邊備詢那當時我有特別去介紹原住民保留地的困境在我國私有的原保地大概有13萬公頃但是他有一個困境也就是說他到銀行要去承貸的時候他會發現被拒絕"},{"start":94.614,"end":109.032,"text":"而且一般都是用市場建價我們卻被採取公告限制那實際上他到了地下市場他的價值其實蠻高的流通性也很高"},{"start":109.753,"end":109.893,"text":"議員提出議案"},{"start":126.414,"end":150.41,"text":"他會覺得承擔比較高的風險所以承貸的意願很低那怎麼辦呢既然正規銀行我們求貸無門呢就很多都只能去找私人的當鋪結果呢也搞不清楚什麼叫做利率多少會產生怎麼樣的債務關係所以呢到最後其實最後都是他的不動產被拍賣"},{"start":151.371,"end":179.586,"text":"他的元寶地被拍賣然後用非常低的價格然後又流落到市場去這是一個惡性循環也是原住民沒有辦法做事業的一個困境那我們長期以來也關心這個問題我知道去年的10月財政部國庫署有召開一個元寶地貸款建價會議那我長期以來也都很關心那部長您覺得元寶地的建價您怎麼看"},{"start":182.183,"end":200.77,"text":"剛剛委員所說的是一個就是說因為原保地它的承受人必須是我們的原住民所以它的承受對象是有受限制所以銀行在提供貸款的時候這個原保地做擔保就會有一些困難假設他要實行抵押權的時候而這個原保地也沒有辦法移轉到我們的銀行"},{"start":203.571,"end":231.423,"text":"所以銀行在做這個元寶地的一個底壓貸款的時候確實有困境另外也跟委員報告其實原住民有一個綜合發展基金那在這個基金裡面他有筆基金是委託我們公股行庫有在做貸款人民會會做信保但是依舊有所謂的擔保品那我現在部長我是問您說元寶地來去做一個建架您怎麼看我不知道您知不知道這個會議內容"},{"start":232.523,"end":247.09,"text":"我知道那元寶地的建架當然是因為他第一個他的流通性的問題所以他的建架就會受到一些限制那我們就知道就是說我們金管會的黃主委那天也有回復我們委員有特別提到所以他也有"},{"start":248.531,"end":263.607,"text":"對,他也會說請銀行工會研究以元寶地作為單薄品的可行性以及如何的建架我想這個部分我們可以協同金管會一起來做這個部分的一些討論那我們的公股行會如果金管會訂出一定的規則那我們當然可以以循這個規則來做處理好,謝謝部長"},{"start":266.169,"end":285.82,"text":"因為我多次的會議其實我聽到的就是有點傷心啦因為可能會去談到一些話例如我們要為全民股東負責啊我們要賺錢啊但是為什麼我一開始會問您就是關於公股行庫的一個社會責任也好它的使命也好您也很認同嘛"},{"start":287.202,"end":308.864,"text":"所以我想這個部分我希望大家對於元寶地建架或者是未來我們的公股行庫能不能夠來接收元寶地貸款這件事情我希望要有個正面積極的態度可以嗎可以我們會追經常會最後的一個規範我希望財政部可以提出更好的解方第一個我希望"},{"start":309.404,"end":332.14,"text":"我們的八家公股銀行可以帶頭乘坐甚至是去制定一些政策性的專案貸款那第二個呢我當然希望要來財政部增加公股的誘因嘛舉個例子來說如果公股行庫他願意乘坐元寶地的時候是不是他的董事長總經理的評鑑可以給予加分啊"},{"start":332.6,"end":361.733,"text":"那又或者說參考紐西蘭的做法就是要去建立一個原保定的建價系統因為其實原保定並沒有那麼不值錢啦那與特定的銀行合作給予我們部落族人應有的一個金融服務那我是希望說部長您就帶回去研議那也能夠比照金管會所說的希望可以遵照本席的一個建議方向那提出一些對策跟可行性那兩個月內給予回覆可以嗎"},{"start":362.253,"end":385.778,"text":"可以謝謝委員是那為什麼我這樣講因為我們原住民我們其實都沒有辦法貸款然後蓋房子所以有10萬賺個10萬就蓋一片廁所再有個50萬幫孩子蓋一個新房所以那個房子都長得古裡古怪所以像紐西蘭他們也是跟我們一樣因為毛利的土地呢他們其實也跟我們一樣有困境可是"},{"start":386.198,"end":415.043,"text":"他們會去針對去做一些專案像這個土地上的這個就是有24戶人家要蓋房子那銀行政府呢就幫他們辦理一個專案的貸款計畫我希望未來我們部長都可以來做這樣的一個鼓勵好不好好好謝謝您吼那我們也知道我們政策金融永續金融普惠金融長期以來是受到重視的我希望未來原民友善這個部分也能夠列入一個考量"},{"start":415.943,"end":440.458,"text":"我們看到新聞說第一金、兆豐金、台企銀他們6月可能會有一個改選我希望未來的人選人對了事情就會對了都能夠來考量好嗎那為什麼我很關心這個問題其實2005年我們談到原住民基本法出來了之後他有一個要做原住民自治可是談了這麼多年大家都不知道要怎麼做"},{"start":441.238,"end":463.859,"text":"所以我一直希望說我們原住民的土地可以活化利用那未來最重要的就是要有財源的一個自主所以我想要請教一下部長因為我看到這一次的院會質詢部長有允諾就是應該會來修財化法對嗎對財化法的部分我們目前來遵循意見然後我們要凝聚共識"},{"start":464.98,"end":482.695,"text":"那何時會送進立法院?這個部分當然要看共識能夠什麼時候能夠把那個距離縮到最小然後有個共識情況下來推動各位委員知道在101年也曾經有一個財化法的修正送到立法院但是因為地方政府各有不同的意見最後也就沒有修法成功"},{"start":483.295,"end":506.823,"text":"所以意思就是說要有共識才有可能?對,因為這涉及到地方的...那版本已經有了嗎?沒有,因為目前還在共識我們還要再做討論我其實是要關心一個問題因為在這25年當中地制法已經做過15次的修正那我們的兩都都已經變六都了"},{"start":507.563,"end":530.675,"text":"那我不知道部長您知不知道我們直轄市合併之後原住民鄉就變成原住民區那一度失去公法人地位那引起嘩然所以在2014年4年之後馬上又修法改回讓原民區具有部落公法人地位那我現在想要說如果我們有去做"},{"start":531.335,"end":550.771,"text":"財化法的修正這個草案期間有沒有跟我們的這些關係機關開會財政部我們有跟相關機關開會但是到縣市直轄市縣市部長您就知道我想問的為什麼沒有跟鄉鎮市公所開會當然第一個目前鄉鎮市公所有198個相當多"},{"start":553.833,"end":573.962,"text":"因為其實縣市裡面應該他要去收集這個鄉鎮市的意見這個很重要然後一起來做中央的反應但是我相信你們跟縣市他們只會關心直轄市跟縣市政府要軍醫那土地面積要納入可能就討論他們關心的啦那為什麼我這樣講因為"},{"start":576.343,"end":590.573,"text":"我們的財化法其實有規定就是關於我們的財化法第8條財政部由於鄉鎮市它有一些是跟鄉鎮市有關的就是不是不能違是不作為"},{"start":591.914,"end":608.21,"text":"那為什麼我這樣講因為以我們這些合併之後的原民區公所來講你應該很清楚像他們合併之前稅客收入是70%可是呢之後整併稅客收入是0%那我要說的是"},{"start":608.931,"end":624.766,"text":"重點在我們2014年在修地治法的時候寫得很清楚直轄市的區山地鄉改治者他是地方自治團體準用鄉鎮市的規定而且財政部當年你看他的第83條"},{"start":627.708,"end":651.418,"text":"這邊也有提到他的原住民區的財政是自治的喔所以未來這個財化法修正絕對至少需要跟合併之後直轄市的原民區公所來開會聽起意見部長可以嗎我們這個部分我想原民區的也非常重要的意見也非常重要因為他們地位很特別地位很特別現在就變得很尷尬"},{"start":652.738,"end":653.639,"text":"謝謝吳立華委員的質詢接著我們請謝伊鳳委員質詢提醒列席委員有5加1的時間"},{"start":683.943,"end":684.045,"text":"不客氣。"}]}},{"id":"149571","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149571","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbeff3988e15cddaf05f84c29b94b9165f0f8ba9b0039caa7a66a92922fd67a804f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:24:19 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11:36:00","影片長度":"00:11:41","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":701,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:36:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:24:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":680,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時24分）謝謝主席，請我們財政部莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好。在這個禮拜二的時候，賦稅署的宋署長還有五區的國稅局局長有到我的辦公室來，我有提到一個現象，就是在過年之後，國稅局好像會針對生意比較好的一些小吃店做查核，但是局長們都說沒有啦！我是認為，現在的統一發票銷售額每月20萬的標準，請教一下部長，你知道這個標準是哪時候訂定的嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：民國75年的時候。"],["李委員坤城：民國75年訂定的，到現在有多少年了？"],["莊部長翠雲：應該有超過……"],["李委員坤城：38年了，在38年前訂20萬，跟現在的20萬，價值有沒有差很多？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們實施新制的營業稅制以後是進項稅，進銷項的稅額必須要做勾稽以及扣抵，所以發票是一個很重要的功能。"],["李委員坤城：這個我知道，我只問你，38年前的20萬跟現在的20萬是不是差很多了？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然差很多了。"],["李委員坤城：請教一下部長，你知道38年前一碗滷肉飯大概多少錢嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：38年前一碗滷肉飯大概10元吧！"],["李委員坤城：大概10元左右，我去查了一下資料，那時候的鬍鬚張一碗滷肉飯是賣10元，你知道現在一碗賣多少錢了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得現在大概賣到50元的都有啦！"],["李委員坤城：對，你也知道，38年前的20萬跟現在的20萬差很多，38年前滷肉飯一碗才賣10元，現在要大概40元到50元啦！結果現在免稅額都還是定在20萬，難道沒有要調整的空間嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，當時定20萬是因為我們其實應該是課加值型的營業稅然後使用發票做勾稽，但是我們當時又考慮到一些小規模的營業人或特殊營業的性質，湯湯水水、賣豆漿飲料等一直開發票會有點困難，所以我們才訂了一個平均銷售額每個月20萬的標準。長期以來，我們一直輔導營業人使用發票，因為使用發票很重要。如果我們把標準調高的話，第一個，對消費者來說，消費者長期以來已經養成消費就要索取發票的習慣，如果把免稅額標準調高，相對地，開發票的商家就少了，民眾也減少可以兌獎的機會，這是對民眾而言。"],["李委員坤城：你這要從兩方面來著想，一個是民眾拿發票，另外一個是對店家而言也是一種困擾啊！我已經說過了嘛！當時候的20萬或許算高，現在20萬其實很容易就達到了！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，如果不開發票，是用查定銷售額來……"],["李委員坤城：我沒有說不開發票，我是說38年前訂的20萬跟現在的20萬，有沒有調整的空間？"],["莊部長翠雲：如果要調整的話，會有我們講的影響，跟原來要推動使用統一發票的目的是相違背的嘛！所以這個部分應該是要輔導商家使用統一發票，尤其現在開統一發票已經越來越便利了！包括我們推動所謂的雲端發票，所以是越來越便利的。"],["李委員坤城：按照部長這樣講，20萬會繼續一直延續下去就對了？沒有調整的空間就對了？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們認為應該是維持這樣子會比較合理，對於整個稽徵人力的查核上也可以比較節省，剛剛您、委員提到……"],["李委員坤城：38年前的20萬跟現在的20萬的標準一樣，結果財政部也沒有要做任何的調整，造成很多的小吃店商家非常大的困擾，這是我們身為民意代表必須要來跟你們反映的啦！","我再請教一下，營業稅的起徵點分別是貨物的8萬跟勞務的4萬，這是95年12月修正的，再上一次的修正是在76年的7月，從95年到現在又隔了19年了。當時調整的理由是為避免通貨膨脹導致小吃戶納稅人稅賦加重，所以財政部決定參考綜所稅免稅額自81年到95年的調幅，修正小店戶營業稅的課徵，課稅的起徵點就是按照綜所稅的免稅額調整，那一樣啊！就又隔了19年了！這是19年的調整，而第一次調整，也就是從75年到現在總計38年的時間，物價指數成長了85%，我們綜所稅的免稅額成長了206%。","我再請教一下部長，是不是能夠制度化，以每5年或10年，按照物價指數或免稅成長率，檢討營業稅的免徵標準？或者我剛才提到的，免用統一發票銷售額的標準，能不能提出一個公式？而不是38年都不調整，未來10年也不調整，即使不調整也是要有理由嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，這個部分我們已經在研議調整了。"],["李委員坤城：就是要調整營業稅免徵4萬元跟8萬元嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：就是8萬跟4萬那個部分，我們會做一個調整。"],["李委員坤城：是要做怎麼樣的調整？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們會審慎地配合比如CPI的上漲情形進行調整。"],["李委員坤城：一樣啊，就是跟19年前的調整一樣，參考物價指數、免稅額的額度。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，查訂的方式也會做一些調整，是，好，謝謝委員，我們這個部分正在做。"],["李委員坤城：很多小吃店跟我們反映，我還是要跟你們財政部所有官員再反映一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["李委員坤城：好，那我再問一下跟促參有關係的問題。關於基隆東岸商場的爭議，我要這個合約，身為一個立法委員，基隆市議員跟我講說他們要不到基隆市政府的合約，所以我也發文請財政部去要了，我是2月29日發文，到現在3月7日，我也還沒拿到啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：基隆的那個合約是嗎？"],["李委員坤城：對啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：我請司長說明一下。"],["李委員坤城：司長，請教一下，我問你，這個合約應不應該公開？"],["李司長建賢：報告委員，其實按照政府資訊公開法是可以來公開合約的。"],["李委員坤城：應該要公開，按照你們的作業指引的規定，主辦機關按照政府資訊公開法第七條的規定，應該要公開投資契約嘛，對不對？"],["李司長建賢：是的，但是同樣在第七條也有提到，如果符合該法第十八條的一些規定……"],["李委員坤城：好，那我問你，這個案子應不應該公開？"],["李司長建賢：我們覺得，如果能夠把它公開的話，可以讓社會大眾比較容易瞭解整個案情。"],["李委員坤城：應該要公開嘛，然後到現在公開了沒有？"],["李司長建賢：但是我也要尊重一下基隆市政府的權力。"],["李委員坤城：這沒有什麼尊重基隆市政府，應該公開的資訊就應該公開，那你在促參司是做什麼的啊？這所有的資訊不是都應該公開嗎？"],["李司長建賢：因為基隆市政府……"],["李委員坤城：我只問你這個資訊應該不應該公開，到現在我要的書面資料也沒有拿到，那我可不可以在網站上看得到？"],["李司長建賢：除非基隆市政府自行上傳，否則網站上面應該是看不到的。"],["李委員坤城：所以你一點約束力都沒有？剛剛不是講了嗎，按照政府資訊公開法，應該要公開嘛，對不對？"],["李司長建賢：但是同一條的第十八條也有……"],["李委員坤城：所以你促參司沒有用啦，你沒有用啦，我跟你講，按照政府資訊公開法就應該要公開，你還幫基隆市政府講話。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，這個部分，因為投資契約是甲、乙雙方簽訂的，如果他們基隆市政府公開的話，就可以公開。"],["李委員坤城：應該公開的資訊就應該公開，部長認為要不要公開？該不該公開？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個要看有沒有涉及營業機密，如果涉及營業機密……"],["李委員坤城：營業機密當然不用公開。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，涉及營業機密的話就可以不公開。"],["李委員坤城：營業機密的部分我沒有說要公開，但是應該公開給基隆市議員的部分就應該要公開，對不對？它現在有沒有給基隆市議員？"],["李司長建賢：報告委員，昨天的新聞報導裡面提到，他們已經把這些資訊公開，而且基隆市政府也同意把契約來公開了。"],["李委員坤城：對，給基隆市議員，但是不能上網公開嗎？"],["李司長建賢：你是說現在嗎？還是未來所有的促參案？"],["李委員坤城：至少這個案子啊。"],["李司長建賢：這個案子他們現在已經同意來公開了，所以我們會趕快來做這件事情。"],["李委員坤城：所以我說嘛，我跟你們要資料要不到，請基隆市政府公開，你們也不敢要求，按照政府資訊公開法，也應該要公開，到現在促參司沒有任何的作為，我現在最後只要求一點，你們在2023年有給基隆市政府關於東岸新的ROT案和信二停車場前置作業有315萬的補助費，有沒有？"],["李司長建賢：報告委員，有的。"],["李委員坤城：現在有爭議了，第一階段的94萬他們已經拿了，第二階段跟第三階段的220萬，在這個爭議處理結束之前暫緩撥付，可不可以做到？"],["李司長建賢：報告委員，有關補助要點的一些規定，包括暫停撥款，我們有相關的規定。"],["李委員坤城：我的意思是說，現在已經有司法爭議了，那你們還要給嗎？"],["李司長建賢：委員的意見，我們回去再檢討，因為其實這部分是兩個案件，一個是東岸停車場……"],["李委員坤城：一個是東岸，一個是信二。"],["李司長建賢：對，所以信二的部分如果還是……"],["李委員坤城：信二也是有問題啦。"],["李司長建賢：目前並沒有看到有什麼樣的問題。"],["李委員坤城：也一樣啊，簽了二十年長約啊。所以促參司啊，到現在為止，一個立法委員跟你們要資料要不到，基隆市議員要的資料已經拿到了，我問你說可不可以上網公開，你說還要看基隆市政府，到現在為止，沒有拿到任何的資料，這個是有爭議的案件，所以我要求你，中央的補助不應該下去，能不能做到？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，就這個案子來說，目前東岸的部分有申請前置作業的補助款，前置作業補助款的撥補方式是有一定的進度，我們按一定的進度來辦理。"],["李委員坤城：第一階段你們已經給了啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，那第二階段的話，要看辦理的進度來申請。"],["李委員坤城：現在就是有爭議啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：爭議是前一個案子，是他們跟基隆市政府的產權爭議，目前已經進入司法程序。"],["李委員坤城：微風這個案子有爭議，不是前一個案子，是微風這個案子有爭議，他現在做的就是微風這個案子的。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，是另外一個契約雙方。"],["李委員坤城：就是這個案子，你們給他的就是這個案子啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，就是這個案子。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，現在有爭議啊，所以本席要求在有爭議的時候就不應該撥補。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們有相關的要點，我們再來檢視一下我們的要點。"],["主席：請部長會後跟李委員好好溝通一下，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，是。"],["主席：相關文件備齊。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李委員的質詢。","接下來我們請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","王世堅","王鴻薇","賴惠員","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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可以讓社會大眾比較容易來了解那應該要公開嘛 它到現在公開了沒有但是我想也要尊重一下基隆市政府的一個權利啦 這沒有什麼尊重基隆市政府這該公開的資訊就應該公開啊 那你在蘇珊市是做什麼的這所有的資訊不是應該公開嗎"},{"start":442.268,"end":465.514,"text":"我只問你說這個資訊應該不應該公開我到現在書面資料有沒有拿到那我可不可以在網站上面看得到網站上面除非基隆市政府自行上傳否則應該是看不到的所以你一點約束力都沒有剛剛不是講了嗎按照這個政府的資訊公開法他應該要公開嘛對不對"},{"start":466.633,"end":478.724,"text":"但是在同樣那一條在第18條也有去提到所以你數三四沒有用啊你沒有用啊我跟你講這個按照這個政府秩序公開法就應該公開你還幫基隆市政府講話"},{"start":480.872,"end":507.795,"text":"委員這個部分因為投資契約是假以雙方簽訂的如果他們基隆市政府公開的話該公開的資訊就應該公開部長認為應該要不要公開該不該公開這個要看有沒有涉及到營業機密如果涉及到營業機密當然不用公開對涉及到營業機密的話他就也可以不公開營業機密的部分我沒有說要公開但是應該公開給基隆市議員的部分就應該要公開對不對他現在有沒有給基隆市議員了"},{"start":511.904,"end":530.058,"text":"報告委員從昨天的新聞報導裡面他們已經把這些資訊呢公開給委員而且基隆市政府也同意對給基隆市議員但是不能上網公開嗎上網公開你是說現在嗎還是未來的所有的出差案至少這個案子啊"},{"start":531.099,"end":547.536,"text":"這個案子他們現在已經同意來公開了所以我們會趕快來做這件事情所以我說嘛,我跟你們要資料要不到請藉由是政府公開你們也不敢要求按照政府資訊公開法也應該要公開到現在蔡先生沒有任何的作為我現在最後我只要求一點"},{"start":548.567,"end":564.283,"text":"你們在2023年有給他這個基隆市政府關於東岸新的這個ROT案還有性惡停車場的這個前置作業有315萬的這個補助費有沒有包括我有的現在有爭議了現在有爭議了"},{"start":567.54,"end":579.449,"text":"那我要求這個第一階段他們90萬已經拿了第二階段跟第三階段的220萬在這個爭議處理結束之前暫緩撥付可不可以做到"},{"start":580.795,"end":605.094,"text":"報告委員我想有關這個補助要點的一些規定包括暫停來這個撥款我們有相關的規定我的意思是說現在已經進入司法爭議了那你還要給他嗎委員的意見我們回去再檢討因為其實他是兩個案件一個是東岸停車場一個是東岸一個是新二對所以新二的部分其實如果他還是新二也是有問題"},{"start":607.238,"end":635.208,"text":"呃...目前並沒有看到有什麼...也一樣啊!簽了20年長約啊!前置是東岸的前置...所以喔!處三司啊!到現在為止一個立法委員跟你們要資料要不到!阿基隆市議員的這個資料已經拿到了我問你說可不可以上網公開你說還要看基隆市政府那當然在現在為止沒有拿到任何的資料所以我要求你這個是有正義的案件中央的補助部應該下去能不能做到?"},{"start":636.796,"end":653.912,"text":"委員報告就這個案子來說目前來說就東岸的部分他有申請前置作業的補助款那前置作業補助款的撥補的方式是有一定的進度一定的進度第一階段已經給了阿對那第二階段的話要看他辦理的一個進度來申請現在就是有爭議阿"},{"start":655.418,"end":659.844,"text":"現在這個違封這個案子也有爭議不是前一個案子是違封這個案子有爭議他現在做的就是違封這個案子的啊"},{"start":668.65,"end":689.495,"text":"李坤是另外一個就是這個案子啊你們給他的就是這個案子啊對就是這個案子啊對啊但現在有爭議啊所以本席要求在有爭議的時候就不應該撥補我想這個部分我們有相關的要點我們再來檢視一下我們的要點請部長會後跟李委員好好溝通一下好不好相關文件備起好謝謝委員謝謝李委員的質詢那接下來我們請武力華委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"149570","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149570","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe2b7cf153da9a563bf84c29b94b9165f0f8ba9b0039caa7a6091ed520d06e93fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:14:13 - 11:24:12","影片長度":"00:09:59","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":599,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:24:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:14:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":623,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時13分）好的，謝謝，我請莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，部長好。我們在總質詢的時候，我有提出幾個問題，跟財政部有很大的關係。第一個就是稅制改革，包括當天我所提出的印花稅、娛樂稅、貨物稅，以及我最關心的，大概也是你知道的，碳稅定價機制。當天院長承諾會針對這個部分提出相關研議，我想知道目前這個部分你大概什麼時候可以給本席一個完整的相關的規劃報告？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，對於委員關心的稅制改革，我們都很佩服。有關綠色也就是碳稅的部分，那天也提過碳費先行碳稅在後，委員也特別提到不能以後再研議，應該現在就要研議，這部分特別跟委員報告，我們也一直在收集有關國際間對於課徵能源稅跟碳稅的國際資料。"],["黃委員珊珊：我需要的是時間。"],["莊部長翠雲：另外我們也委託了臺北大學進行碳稅銜接碳費、併同檢討貨物稅制可行性的研究。這個研究預估會在今年的11月30日完成，我相信這個研究可以對我們提出很具體的建議。"],["黃委員珊珊：你先把你現在在做的事情給我一個時間表，我只要你的時間表，內容的部分我都知道你們在做些什麼。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我需要的是什麼時候可以提出這個報告給我？第二個就是有關碳稅，到目前為止，去年環境部有答應1個月提出來，但是只用了200個字，我不知道你的報告會不會只有100個字？"],["莊部長翠雲：可行性研究的報告會在11月30日完成，如果委員需要一個比較完整的報告，可能要到年底。您如果要知道我們現在在做什麼，我們可以把現在進行的情形跟您……"],["黃委員珊珊：碳稅跟碳費的過渡期，我們沒有時間再等，所以你說報告要到年底才能出來，如果按照這個時程，的確是有點慢了，但是我還是認為稅是國家的工具之一，碳費、碳稅是當然跟環境有關，如果可能，在這之前我們有很多的稅制可以同步做一些相關的規劃可能會更好一點。部長，我希望在年底的時候會看到完整的計畫，但是我希望1個月內先至少把相關的時程表，不會是需要3年、5年才能完成碳稅的規範，不會吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：碳稅今年才開始，明年課徵，這個部分環境部也正在做相關細節的一些作業。"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意，財政部雖然不是氣候變遷的主責機關，但是我認為碳稅本身就是一種工具，像我們在產創條例的部分，可以用稅額扣抵來引導產業轉型，同理產創條例，目前減碳也可以成為所謂的減稅項目之一，就好比居住正義用房屋稅、各種稅制來協助居住正義的完成。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是說，稅在你的手上，你可以協助各機關達到政策目標的效益，會比其他各機關自己徵收相關碳費來得更好也會更有效，你同意嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：租稅確實也是一個政策工具。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以今天第一個重點就是時間，我希望能在1個月之內給我一個完整的時程表，不管你們要做什麼，請把時程表給我。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會把要做的事情跟相關的時程提給委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個就是我剛剛講的，當稅制成為你的工具之一，在企業減碳的活動裡，這些所謂的投資抵減，或者把減碳的成果當成在稅制上比照居住正義、比照其他的稅制改革可以給企業相關的優惠，成為一個獨立的項目來提供企業朝向減稅的方式，我的意思是，淨零碳排氣候變遷不會只是環境部的工作，財政部作為稅制的主管機關，應該有相當的武器、相當的工具可以協助更多企業進行產業轉型及淨零碳排，而不是只是單純等環境部提出需求，這件事情我相信部長，以你的遠見，應該可以往這個方向做規劃。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。另外，經濟部也在考慮引進產創條例，然後把有關投資抵減放進去，我們也會一起參與，我想這個部分都是大家共同努力。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望這個也納入在你未來的稅制改革裡，在氣候變遷跟企業抵減方面應該有一個整套的辦法啦！不會只有環境部一個部門在講啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，有一個聯結性，瞭解。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個部分，麻煩也請在2個禮拜之內給我一個跟企業減稅、投資抵減相關的規劃。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，因為產創條例是經濟部主政，我們可以跟他們聯繫以後看有什麼資料可以提供給委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是，財政部在淨零碳排的路徑上有可能要更主動一點。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：你用你的稅制工具，可以協助各機關，在這條道路上因為稅制的幫助，推動業務會更方便。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，瞭解。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個就是，今天有很多的公股行庫都在現場，我想請問部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在全世界相關的比較裡，我們臺灣的銀行，目前為止有一個原則是金融控股公司的資產越大競爭力就越強，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前來說國際間確實有，大者恆大。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，而且目前為止我們中華徵信所好像提出過，臺灣的金控只需要9家，而我們現在所有的銀行都沒有辦法排到全球前百大，主要是因為資產狀況超過10兆的只有2家，只有富邦跟國泰。現在我們的公營行庫最好的、最大的大概就是臺銀，但是現在臺灣公股銀行的資產市占率跟民營的銀行、民營的金控差很多對吧？","臺灣現在的金控有14間，獲利前三名的都是民營，公股銀行裡面表現最好是兆豐，但是成績只有富邦的一半。部長，如果照這樣的情況下，我們的公營行庫不要說國際競爭了，現在連國內競爭好像都已經輸了，你有什麼樣的看法？有什麼樣的解方？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關獲利的部分，我們也一直在督促我們的公股行庫能夠做努力。不管是金控的雙引擎、銀行的雙翅膀，我們都希望他們在現有的強項裡能夠再拓展另外一個強項，然後提高獲利。但是我們也不可否認，公股行庫也擔負相關國家政策的一些任務，譬如青安貸款。"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意，所以公營行庫有不同的面向、有不同的政策責任。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是同樣還是必須要爭取到更多的獲利跟相關的市占率。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在公營行庫輸給民間的金控，然後我們又不斷地推動民間金控併金控，所以富邦併了日盛，民營就更大，我們的公營行庫競爭力又會更弱，這種狀況有沒有考慮過或者讓我們的公營行庫有聯盟連線，各自不同的長處做配搭，甚至在保障員工權益的情況下考慮公公合併呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員說得很好，其實因為公股行庫他們各有不同的強項，是跟他們長久以來的歷史跟一些專業的投注有關係，可以做聯盟，也可以做連線。"],["黃委員珊珊：公公合併的規劃呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：至於公股公公合併的部分，我們認為就是要看雙方的企業文化、經營策略、優勢的互補以及市場定位、員工的安置以及據點的裁撤等等，要從各個面向來討論。"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：不管怎麼樣，但是都必須要公開透明，而且要符合市場機制，這個方向要確定。"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意，從國內競爭的角度、國際競爭的角度來看，我們的公營行庫還有公營金控競爭力現在遠遠不如民間，所以這件事情，我覺得如果站在財政部的立場，幫國家多賺點錢，增加我們公營行庫的國際跟國內競爭力，可能會是財政部很重要的任務之一。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我覺得是。"],["黃委員珊珊：公公合併之前有討論過嘛！所以也一樣請給我一份針對目前所謂公營行庫、公營金控尚未合併之前，在各自不同的戰略合作上、各自不同的強項方面如何發揮綜效的規劃。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個就是假設要合併，我們有什麼比較好的方案？在保障剛剛講的員工權益、符合政府的政策前提之下，其實我們要增加一個可以跟民間金控競爭的公營行庫。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，好，這個部分我們會提出報告給委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：1個月之內給我初步的報告，好嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員質詢，接著我們請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","王世堅","王鴻薇","賴惠員","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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同樣的產創條例對於目前減碳"},{"start":170.089,"end":170.169,"text":"所以﹐"},{"start":196.306,"end":217.241,"text":"今天第一個就是時間我希望一個月之內給我一個完整的你的時程表不管你要做什麼請把時程表給我我們把我們想要我們要做的事情可以把跟相關的時程提給委員第二個就我剛剛講當稅制成為你的工具之一在企業減碳的活動裡面這些所謂的投資"},{"start":218.502,"end":218.642,"text":"議員提供"},{"start":237.898,"end":255.767,"text":"近林碳排氣候邊遷不會只是環境部的工作財政部作為稅制的主管機關他應該有相當的武器相當的工具可以來協助更多的企業在產業轉型上面在近林碳排上面而不是只是單純等環境部提出需求"},{"start":256.467,"end":282.009,"text":"這件事情我相信部長以你的遠見應該可以往這個方向去做規劃另外產創條例的部分經濟部也正在考慮就是把這一部分引進去然後把有關投資抵減把它放進去我們也會一起參與那我想這個部分都是同樣的東西這個也納進來在你的未來稅制改革在氣候變遷跟企業抵減上面應該"},{"start":282.89,"end":308.848,"text":"有一個整套有一個只有環境部一個人在講這個部分麻煩也是是不是兩個禮拜之內也可以給我一個跟這個企業減稅投資抵減的部分有一個相關的規劃我們因為是產創條例是經濟部主政我們可以跟他聯繫以後看有什麼資料可以提供給委員我的意思是說財政部在金鈴碳排的路徑上"},{"start":309.648,"end":335.234,"text":"你可能要更主動一點你用你的稅制的工具可以協助各機關他們在這條道路上面成為一個因為你的稅制的幫助他的推動業務會更方便這第一個第二個就是今天有很多的公股航空都在現場我想部長我們現在在全世界的相關的比較裡面我們的"},{"start":336.618,"end":345.648,"text":"台灣的銀行目前為止目前有一個原則是金融控股公司的資產越大它是不是競爭力越強"},{"start":347.787,"end":368.517,"text":"當然目前來說國際間確實有大則恆大沒錯而且目前為止我們中華徵信所好像提出過臺灣的金控只需要9家然後呢我們現在所有的銀行都沒有辦法排到全球前百大主要是因為我們資產狀況"},{"start":370.703,"end":376.727,"text":"臺灣公股銀行的資產市佔率跟民營的金控差很多對吧所以國庫署是所以我們現在的公營的金控"},{"start":397.145,"end":420.053,"text":"我們有14間獲利前三名的都是民營也就是說公股銀行裡面表現最好是兆豐但是他的成績只有富光的一半部長如果照這樣的情況下我們的公營行庫不要說國際競爭了我們現在連國內競爭好像都已經輸了你有什麼樣的看法有什麼樣的解方"},{"start":420.813,"end":428.116,"text":"跟委員報告這有關獲利的部分我們也一直在督促我們的公股行庫能夠做努力所以不管是金控的雙引擎還有銀行的雙翅膀都希望他們在現有的一個強項裡面能夠再拓展另外一個強項然後提高獲利但是我們也不可否認的我們的公股行庫也擔負著相關的國家政策的一些任務比如說其他貸款所以公營行庫有不同的面向有不同的政策責任"},{"start":448.323,"end":462.63,"text":"但是同樣他還是必須要爭取到更多的獲利跟相關的市佔率那現在我們輸給民間的金控然後我們又不斷的推動民間的金控並金控"},{"start":463.194,"end":477.639,"text":"所以富邦併了日盛那我們的供應行庫就會可能又他就更大那我們的競爭力又會更弱這種狀況有沒有考慮過或者是說讓我們的供應行庫他有聯盟連線"},{"start":480.629,"end":500.299,"text":"各自不同的長處去做配搭甚至在保障員工權益的情況下考慮公共合併是委員說得很好就是因為其實公股、航股他們各有不同的強項各有不同的強項那跟他們長久以來的一個歷史跟一些專業的投注有關係對那可以做公共合併的我覺得是一個方向那至於公股"},{"start":504.881,"end":530.714,"text":"公共合併的部分我們認為這個就是要看雙方的一些企業文化經營策略還有優勢的復補及市場定位員工的安置以及據點的採摘等等要從各個面向來討論不管怎麼樣但是都必須要公開透明而且要符合市場的機制我想這個方向是要確定的從國內競爭的角度國際競爭的角度我們的公營的行庫還有公營的這個金控我們的"},{"start":531.975,"end":557.678,"text":"國際財政部財政部的立場幫國家多賺點錢增加我們公營行庫的國際跟國內的競爭力可能會是財政部很重要的任務所以公共合併之前有討論過所以是不是也一樣給我一個目前我們針對所謂公營行庫公營金控我們有可能在不同的"},{"start":558.539,"end":558.579,"text":"主席"},{"start":574.963,"end":575.263,"text":"李坤誠委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"149569","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149569","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe10be6e8c4c9812eaafe835f95dd6e817f8ba9b0039caa7a6a776b5aef8effbec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:08:15 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這個公式它不一定是用新聞的形式來做當然啦 那不一定是新聞的方式 有很多的方式的它也不一定是假的 它很多是激化仇恨、激化對立、激化什麼它用個人評論的方法做 因此無關真假 但是它讓看到的人心裡非常不舒服但是個人評論也有關 也有假訊息參加在裡面 這也有可能的啊"},{"start":138.129,"end":140.891,"text":"對,但是我的意思是說其實現在大部分不是這樣"},{"start":168.389,"end":171.172,"text":"對,所以我們只要是爭議訊息,先不管真假,我們會去分析"},{"start":185.166,"end":213.984,"text":"那至於說實際去做事實查核或調查局去調查他們的那個認知戰研究中心等等我們免費的去提供這個工具讓他們來使用這個在速發部掛牌的時候蔡總統有給予許多任務那其中一項就是說這個為了因應境外勢力持續進行的複合式資訊作戰我們要打造更高層級的國家資安聯防體系沒錯這是蔡總統講的沒錯好那請問一下這個部長對這個總統的這一番的這個期許有什麼樣的看法對"},{"start":215.144,"end":238.341,"text":"我想總統的期許是說我們不能夠只侷限在對於資訊系統的攻擊包含完整性的、可用性、機密性的攻擊現在光是資訊本身不是資訊系統就是Facebook它就算不當機它在上面還是會有很多挑起堆立等等的這種訊息那尤其是透過廣告的方式如果我們不去阻擋的話我自己認為總統的這一番談話是對於說"},{"start":242.364,"end":263.844,"text":"如何面對境外勢力的假訊息進來啦那訴發部要怎麼做啦我還是要強調就是訊息攻勢大部分是靠不是假的訊息因為假的訊息已經有一套防治方法所以現在大概都是靠半真半假或根本就是真的個人評論去放大那個言論的仇恨所以我們現在是把它叫做訊息干預訊息攻勢等等"},{"start":264.264,"end":285.461,"text":"沒關係,這是定義上的問題我是說訴發部要怎麼做的問題啦對,所以我們剛剛講了啊就是說如果他境外用一個一站式的網站在那邊冒充成好比方新聞網站好了我們去年這個狀況包含詐騙的狀況我們就下架了大概幫助檢警調下架了大概3萬多個我們成立前整年也不到3000個所以這一部分我們一直都有聯防"},{"start":286.526,"end":311.839,"text":"部長那時候我有聽一段訪問就是說關於假訊息這方面第一個就是說我們有一個事實查核的機制去做處理另外一個呢你說這個可以用幽默來取代謠言就即時澄清啦我是說那當然是部長個人的處理方式但是我們關心的是整個速發部的這個處理方式那就是說我是希望未來速發部在"},{"start":312.739,"end":327.849,"text":"假訊息的處理這方面應該要更積極來做因為這也是當初這個總統在期許這個速發部掛牌的時候一個重要的內容但是我認為或是我看到目前所看到的關於這方面速發部是做的比較少啦或是說比較消極啦"},{"start":329.029,"end":356.441,"text":"對,那這裡面有一個很很真正的問題就是因為沒有像電子簽章法的新的版本這樣子去確保說當初說這個人他是某某個年份出身的這個姓名怎麼樣沒有辦法去核實,所以這部分必須要這個跟電子簽章法沒有絕對關係這個在國際上大家都發現只有靠數位簽章才能徹底解決這個問題這個我覺得不是只有電子簽章法的關係他當然他當然占一部分因素但是我認為是你們的心態的關係"},{"start":358.301,"end":358.421,"text":"謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"},{"start":386.502,"end":386.725,"text":"李委員．"}]}},{"id":"149568","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149568","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbeee66370512694fffafe835f95dd6e817f8ba9b0039caa7a6e2ce94d99c1cf0755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:02:34 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你不要那麼緊張我講的不是你我要講的是什麼你蓋辦公室的名聲已經響亮到還要逼著南門市場中繼站拆掉雖然說最後你沒決定在那更好笑你沒有決定在那結果最後還是要拆掉你已經名聲響亮到行政院是拿要蓋速發部辦公大樓為由"},{"start":112.95,"end":134.054,"text":"就把南門市場中基站拆掉在隔壁我那時候就是說你要蓋為什麼不蓋在隔壁你既然隔壁就是那個地也是國有的為什麼剛剛徐曉鑫啊講到你的辦公室我跟那個我們的部長說啊你們叫數位發展部對不對是啊我看你叫出國發展部好了"},{"start":135.083,"end":160.476,"text":"你叫辦公室發展部好了你叫點面先發展部好了你叫數位中介法發展部好了我在問你齁剛南門市場中介站已經是一個例子了你的辦公室蓋到出名齁結果害政府公帑1.8億為了你拆掉結果你竟然也沒搬那第二個我要問你啦我想請問你現在大家很關心的那個數位身份證的事情你怎麼看"},{"start":161.517,"end":182.012,"text":"剛剛有提到啊就是當時民間的要求是要獨立的個資會跟內政部如果要推要訂專法搞了半天賠了2.8億請問是誰出當然以內政部的跟工程會的這個仲裁納稅人出啦那麼簡單沒有關係你知道你的任內當中齁說真的很多人都搞不清楚我們到底書發部在幹什麼沒錯吧"},{"start":183.339,"end":196.71,"text":"沒錯啊,很多民眾搞不清楚啊大家應該好比像說大家大家你的政績有一個大家搞得很清楚大家領六千的時候大家應該知道大家很知道你的點面線發展部做得很好那個有五萬多個中小的商家請問什麼時候要結束"},{"start":199.011,"end":214.159,"text":"什麼時候你的點面線平台要結束啦?沒有,那個平台是轉型去做包含像長照、醫療啊等等啊轉型就是今天平台停校的最好的理由啦你3月就要告終了啦然後呢,申請率就是3個百分點沒關係,你那美化數字你提個報告給我我要再跟您說齁"},{"start":224.192,"end":243.346,"text":"大家在批評你的出國發展部我想請教您您112年參加27場國際會議跟一場考察嘛 對不對你知道出國寫報告這件事情嘛 對不對外交部寫多少報告出國報告你知道嗎外交部寫13個出國報告"},{"start":245.592,"end":270.284,"text":"我們數位發展部真的很適合當外交部啦你寫了26個報告 對不對導演可能說報告多你覺得比較勤勞啦 對不對一直外交部就不勤勞我要告訴你的是今天大家齊聚在數位發展部民眾最期待你做什麼事情就是跨國建立防炸或者是防炸非常好你主動講到防炸了我跟你講你知道嗎"},{"start":271.545,"end":294.691,"text":"我的臉書被冒名使用已經十幾次了請問你怎麼解決這個問題啊?要通過電子槍法的修法並且把廣告的主覽機對啦都推給未來啊你部長當幾年了?我們電子槍法已經送到立法院了不是未來啊啊?已經送到立法院你當幾年部長了?一年半一年半部長民進黨執政幾年了?八年八年了"},{"start":296.052,"end":318.977,"text":"那你現在跟我講那你跟林國成講說人民如果覺得防詐不利是這是政治壓力這是什麼政治壓力啊?就是民意的壓力啊當然了這就是人民對你不滿的壓力跟政治壓力什麼關係?速發布再來問你數位中介法現在怎麼樣?誰推的?數位中介法從頭到尾都是NCC在討論的一個案子啊對啊以上好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149567","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149567","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe98fe3f990814237eafe835f95dd6e817f8ba9b0039caa7a631f66945a42017395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"11:56:50 - 12:02:21","影片長度":"00:05:31","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":331,"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:02:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:56:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":760,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時56分）謝謝主席，請唐部長。"],["主席：請唐部長。"],["唐部長鳳：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好，我想我們本來對數位發展部的想像很多，比方說遠端工作、線上開會、線上參與國際會議等等，結果沒想到數位發展部的發展好像比其他單位還要更加的傳統，不只被批評花了太多錢出國，我們還發現你們花了非常多的錢租用辦公室，從民國111年8月27日掛牌至今，一年半左右，我問一下部長，光是辦公室的搬遷預算總共花了多少錢？"],["唐部長鳳：如果是把租金算進去的話，在新光的部分，我們的租金在前一年半是剛剛有委員提到7,000萬元左右，但是如果是講延平的話，其實本來NCC就已經裝修過，我們只是做簡單的室內裝潢。"],["徐委員巧芯：哦！你說是做簡單的室內裝潢嘛！簡單的室內裝潢！那我們整體的，包含新光跟延平，裝潢費花了多少錢？"],["唐部長鳳：您這個已經寫在這上面了，預算4億元，決算3.9億元。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以嘛！你看喔！成立1.5年，整體包含是租金、辦公室的裝修，我們花了預算就4.09億元，決算是3.9億元，唐鳳部長，你會不會覺得這個經費太高了？"],["唐部長鳳：不會，我們向上集中的機房，本來機房一次性的建置，本來各部會就是這個樣子。"],["徐委員巧芯：機房，那我問一個問題，數位發展部會議室跟新聞發布室的採購花了多少錢？上面有寫，但我希望你可以自己講出來。"],["唐部長鳳：是，因為我們本來的那個新聞會議室就是用NCC的，那不管是麥克風、收音等等，大概都有一些要……"],["徐委員巧芯：麥克風跟收音，我問的是光是會議室跟新聞發布室花了多少錢？"],["唐部長鳳：您剛剛黃底的這邊是1,000萬元，然後再加上追加這個65。"],["徐委員巧芯：65，所以花了一千多萬元，只做了新聞發布室跟會議室，你剛剛說麥克風，具體來說這1,000萬元花到哪裡去了？跟大家做個說明吧！"],["唐部長鳳：是，因為我們本來用NCC的那個新聞發布室，如果是要做遠距會議的時候，它有包含這個麥克風、收音回授，還有它的音場等等的問題，所以我們發現這個問題之後，就一次性的把它更新成比較新的設備。"],["徐委員巧芯：換了多少個麥克風？你們那有幾間會議室啊？新聞發布室跟會議室上面，這個花了1,000多萬元，總共幾間？"],["唐部長鳳：它是在一樓裡面的，我們開大的會議的一間，然後旁邊新聞發布室是另外一間，兩個是對面。"],["徐委員巧芯：只有2間，花1,000多萬元。"],["唐部長鳳：然後一個記者的等待室，就3間吧！"],["徐巧芯委員：記者的等待室裡面的麥克風等等的也都要重做？"],["唐部長鳳：不只是麥克風，包含視訊設備嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：視訊設備，但是為什麼你們現在開會的時候，常常你都是自己，你們大家預算花了這麼多，飛出國去開會，我也很少看到你們線上會議裡面去做什麼，今天大家質疑的是你們不只是花了很多的錢出國開會，編了這麼多的預算，就連只是會議室、新聞發布室2間，我算你3間，我算你3間花了一千多萬元。"],["唐部長鳳：我回應一下委員，我在出國的時候，其實公文是照簽喔，我視訊會議照開喔！並不是因為出國就不管國內的事情，所以這也是為什麼需要這種設備啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你的意思是說別的單位都沒有這樣子的一個問題？"],["唐部長鳳：特別……公文在我們這邊是線上簽核。"],["徐委員巧芯：在自由民主聯盟的出席上面，去年9月20號我們有參加這個自由線上聯盟，因應新興技術帶來的風險等等，你說AI的應用規範，社會也要同樣的來推動，然後講了很多，我請問一下，你們在國外說了這麼多AI管制，我們在臺灣目前的法規裡面，你們已經具體通過了哪幾項AI相關的管制法規？"],["唐部長鳳：我們如果是講整個政府的話，那在投資詐騙上面、在深偽的色情影像上面、在選舉的干預上面等等，都有專門針對深偽或甚至是生成式，也不一定是生成式，甚至是任何AI去做這方面的加重處罰或管制。"],["徐委員巧芯：那為什麼我們臺灣的資安問題還這麼多、詐騙的問題還這麼多？你們到國外去跟大家講說我們做了哪一些AI的相關法規規定，但是我們在臺灣發現的卻是少的可憐。"],["唐部長鳳：我們剛剛講到這些，在其他國家也未必有，這是第一個。第二個，像電子簽章法修法，我們已經提到立法院來了，很多其他國家也未必有，這也是我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：那也是我們葛如鈞委員提了之後，你們現在才跟進的。我問一下，關於自由民主聯盟的部分，你們是不是一行15個人去開會？"],["唐部長鳳：就是包含美國的國務卿布林肯……"],["徐委員巧芯：自由民主聯盟參與的目標裡面，哪一點跟數位發展有關？"],["唐部長鳳：這裡面講的就是要保護線上的、因應AI帶來的深偽的威脅，這就是數位的工作啊……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們當時所提的計畫的目的叫做「參與推動民主合作組織、展現臺灣跟國際推動民主事務的堅定決心」，裡面都沒有談到所謂的數位……"],["唐部長鳳：難道我們要跟專制國家學怎麼用電子簽章嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，我的意思是說你們今天數位發展部去參加的目的說明就要跟數位發展的內容有關。"],["唐部長鳳：當然。"],["徐委員巧芯：不然的話，我們就補助其他的單位去或者是外交部去不就好了嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：但是，民主峰會特別是第二次討論就是討論怎麼因應生成式AI，我們的paper就是講這個。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們在寫報告的時候，就應該把這些內容都寫進目的裡面，而不是讓大家認為說你們花了太多的錢出國但是都沒有做跟數位發展有關的事情。這點請你們必須要改進。"],["唐部長鳳：當然是有關的事情、當然我們會盡可能的來強調。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。謝謝。"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝。"],["主席：好，徐委員發言完畢。","現在請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","許智傑","葛如鈞","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","游顥","林沛祥","何欣純","徐巧芯","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","黃珊珊","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭"],"page_start":349,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就\n「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.58784375,"end":3.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.18659375,"end":3.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.2915937500000005,"end":6.764093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.949718750000001,"end":40.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.17221875,"end":54.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.53721875,"end":63.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.59909375,"end":66.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.26971875000001,"end":65.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.75471875000001,"end":82.33034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.38096875000001,"end":87.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.73471875,"end":96.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.15096875,"end":104.50409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.94721875,"end":110.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.08596875,"end":107.62596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.03096875,"end":108.26721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.45284375000001,"end":109.12784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.34284375,"end":115.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.87409375,"end":113.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.03409375000001,"end":124.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.58534375,"end":140.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.44409375,"end":138.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.03034375000001,"end":146.387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謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149566","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149566","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe4cf030d5fc7afcf8afe835f95dd6e817f8ba9b0039caa7a68543b75889b48ec65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:46:52 - 11:56:40","影片長度":"00:09:48","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":588,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:56:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:46:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":696,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時46分）謝謝召委，請唐鳳部長。"],["主席：請唐部長。"],["唐部長鳳：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：部長好，我想今天很多委員跟本席一樣，都聚焦在這個打詐，打詐呢？我們國家隊的第一步，小英總統曾經也參加過您主辦的一個典禮，就是政府111短碼簡訊系統，現在111政府專屬的短碼簡訊系統平臺已經啟用了，現在目前有多少個政府單位採購？"],["唐部長鳳：已經七十多個機關採購了，到年底我們預期大概會發1億則出去，他們採購的大概快2,000萬則，以目前，前3個月。"],["何委員欣純：我現在拿到的資料，譬如我希望數位發展部是不是可以再用各式各樣多元的方式去宣傳、宣導，教導民眾如何快速的辨別，像我在這個頁面上有一個111簡訊，當時候是由小英總統參加平臺啟用的時候，她發出了第一通，在提醒大家牢記111政府專屬的簡訊短碼，對不對？我再請教一次，因為要講清楚，很多人還是不了解，111這3個數字有可能再被copy仿冒嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：不可能，我們不管是國內……"],["何委員欣純：為何不可能？你要講清楚。"],["唐部長鳳：對，謝謝。我們一般人申請一個手機號碼，用它來傳簡訊，一定是09什麼什麼，它是10個號碼，如果是國際的就更長，它會+多少多少，在我們這邊的短碼，1開頭的只有政府機關可以來使用，所以111這個短碼就好像165一樣，也不會有人能夠冒充165。"],["何委員欣純：短碼能不能被申請？"],["唐部長鳳：短碼1開頭的只有政府機關可以來申請。"],["何委員欣純：其他單位都不能申請對不對？"],["唐部長鳳：對，正確。"],["何委員欣純：所以我們要讓民眾知道這一個重要的訊息，這個111的短碼是不可能被申請，也不可能被copy，所以僅此一家，就是政府的簡訊平臺，是不是？"],["唐部長鳳：委員講得太好了，就是這樣。"],["何委員欣純：就是用直白的話讓一般的民眾了解，他才會幫忙宣傳，也才有助於我們為什麼要用這個平臺嘛！我另外一個要求，我希望更多的政府單位、相關單位、國營事業都要加入，我現在有看到兩個是跟我們民生最相關的兩個體系還沒有加入，一個叫做天然氣公司，一個叫做各公司的銀行體系。部長，第一個天然氣公司是我們退輔會轉投資，可不可以請數發部主動跟退輔會來商量，來推動所有全國25家的天然氣公司通通加入。"],["唐部長鳳：我們可以來主動推動這個共同供應契約，看是不是有哪個政府機關當作它們的總代表，然後幫它們採購。"],["何委員欣純：從跟一般人生活最相關的角度來想起，哪些是跟人民生活最相關的，政府單位跟國營事業或是相關的體系，所以水電、天然氣，再來銀行。"],["唐部長鳳：就是公股的銀行。"],["何委員欣純：公股的銀行，當然我們請財政部可以來幫忙，民營的銀行也可以請財政部，請銀行公會來幫忙，大家一起來使用這樣子的一個平臺，可不可以？部長。"],["唐部長鳳：民營的銀行，以我所知，現在他們在想的是另外再用它自己的短碼，因為1開頭是表示是政府發的，但是同樣是短碼。"],["何委員欣純：好，如果1開頭表示是政府發的，那他們銀行體系、國營官股銀行可不可以加入？"],["唐部長鳳：這個我們就是用共同供應契約的方式儘快來協調。"],["何委員欣純：你說民營銀行沒有辦法用1開頭的簡訊短碼，那它另外創一個系統，我們在宣傳的力道上是不是都要讓民眾能夠簡單直接就知道這個是真的，不是假的。"],["唐部長鳳：像55688就不是1開頭，現在大家都認得了嘛！所以我覺得還是就短碼這件事情，也是可以宣傳的。"],["何委員欣純：好，所以第一個跟退輔會商量，所有的天然氣公司，這個你要去好好的研究一下，去邀他們加入。"],["唐部長鳳：我們馬上請數政司來辦理。"],["何委員欣純：第二個，我們的官股銀行、民營銀行是另外一個體系，我們又如何跟銀行公會去要求、合作，我覺得這很重要。"],["唐部長鳳：我們儘快辦理，而且會書面跟委員說。"],["何委員欣純：我希望是越來越多。"],["唐部長鳳：當然。"],["何委員欣純：能夠建立111簡訊平臺這個品牌，就讓民眾知道這是真的。"],["唐部長鳳：對，你剛剛說的，就僅此一家，別無分號。"],["何委員欣純：僅此一家，別無分號，所以這是真的，不是假的，好不好？","第二個，這兩天大家傻眼，而且搞不清楚狀況，Meta大當機，甚至連美國政府都關心、緊張，短短的那兩個小時，我相信很多人都不知道發生什麼事，連我自己也不知道為什麼，我的FB不能用，我的帳號被登出，部長，你有沒有站在一般人、民眾用戶的感受說，我被駭了是不是？我的資料有沒有全部消失了，我現在要去哪裡問出個所以然來，在發生的當下，沒有人可以問，你知道這件事嗎？部長。"],["唐部長鳳：我知道這件事，而且那是因為我平常有在用X.com，就是以前的Twitter，所以臉書的人還要跑去Twitter上面解釋發生什麼事情。"],["何委員欣純：所以最後是由Twitter，變成X上面才知道這個狀況啊！對不對？"],["唐部長鳳：對，是這樣。"],["何委員欣純：所以包括IG、臉書，然後Threads，甚至還有其他的，統統都不能用平台。我就請教一下，因為Meta在臺灣沒有落地，如果發生像這樣的事情，我們找誰？找誰問？"],["唐部長鳳：Meta在臺灣其實是有落地的，有公司，是有設代理人了。"],["何委員欣純：是有喔？是有落地，那接下來就問你了，因為這一次的事件，聽說祖克柏的淨資產損失了880億元，但是我們消失那2個小時，所有大當機的那2個小時，我們所有用戶的損失，誰來賠償？要找誰賠償？我說的損失不是我們個人在使用，也許沒有營利行為。"],["唐部長鳳：對，可能是廣告主才……"],["何委員欣純：很多人是用這個平台在營利、做生意、在生活的。"],["唐部長鳳：可能廣告主比較有，比較能量化他的損失啦！"],["何委員欣純：請問那怎麼辦，這個你是專家，你可以告訴我怎麼辦？"],["唐部長鳳：是，我們現在在跟各部會一起擬一個叫做打詐的專法，名字還沒有確定，在這裡面就是在講這些達到一定規模，當然臉書已經達到，不管什麼規模，它都達到了，達到一定規模的境外廣告平台，它必須不是只是設代理人而已，還必須要在您剛剛關心的這些，包含它的消費者保護、防詐等等這方面，要盡到一定的義務啦！這部分我們之前的一個挑戰，就是經濟部到目前為止，雖然它原則答應，但是還沒有真的把廣告平台業的目的事業主管機關移給我們，所以我們現在是比較側面了解的狀況，一旦真的交給我們……"],["何委員欣純：現在的主管機關是誰？我去找他。"],["唐部長鳳：因為廣告業其實之前沒有分成網路或者是實體，所以包含燈箱、招牌什麼這些東西，它登記的時候，都還是登記在經濟部商業署。"],["何委員欣純：可是這樣子的一個邏輯，好像是遠古時代的邏輯，現在臺灣已經進步到21世紀了，我們的網路世界都已經在上太空了，我們的法規制度怎麼還在遠古時代。"],["唐部長鳳：這個我也同意啊！就好像本來我們也要把雜貨店跟電商應該分開。"],["何委員欣純：所以我們政府部門的腳步不夠快嘛！"],["唐部長鳳：我們是主動跟經濟部要求，我們最近像電商的部分，我們跟經濟部談妥了，我們就說可不可以儘快把這個也是同樣無實體的網路平台廣告，趕快給我們這樣。"],["何委員欣純：所以第一個，請跟經濟部講，現在這個狀況，我的求償、用戶的權益是誰來，政府可以幫我們人民主張什麼，可以讓我們人民知道你如果因為這一次的2個小時消失不見的大當機，而損失的權益該由誰來主張、該向誰主張，我覺得這個是政府應該有的責任。","第二個，我跟你講喔！我最害怕的是什麼，你看到這個標題喔！這個全球大當機的原因不尋常喔！有3個組織宣稱是它們聯手發動攻擊喔！你看喔！全球最高端的駭客攻擊可以讓Meta集團裡面的平台當機了2個多小時，甚至連美國政府都要出面來關心了解，這是一件非常非常……","這個資安多重要，你就知道。"],["唐部長鳳：非常非常重要。"],["何委員欣純：是不是？所以這裡就是我一直要求，我們政府的各個單位，不管是在防詐或者是在平台所有用戶的權益上，我們的資安……","所以你剛剛講的電子簽章法，我只提醒一個，不是只有電子簽章法通過之後，所有的詐騙就能夠防堵，還需要有積極的對策跟作為，最重要的是電子簽章法通過了之後，未來數位簽章的憑證，誰來認定，目前全臺灣只有兩家。"],["主席：謝謝何委員。"],["唐部長鳳：都是民間的，但政府也可以發。"],["何委員欣純：好，所以請給我一個書面資料，這是一個問題。"],["主席：趕快書面資料給何委員。"],["唐部長鳳：我們書面補充給何委員。"],["主席：謝謝何委員，何委員發言完畢，現在請徐巧芯委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","許智傑","葛如鈞","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","游顥","林沛祥","何欣純","徐巧芯","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","黃珊珊","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭"],"page_start":349,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就\n「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":2.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.6634687500000003,"end":3.7772187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.915968750000001,"end":7.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00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跟一般人生活最相關的這個角度來想起哪些是跟人民生活最相關的政府單位跟國營事業或是相關的體系所以水電再天然氣再來銀行"},{"start":203.197,"end":220.896,"text":"就是關股的銀行關股的銀行當然我們請財政部可以來幫忙我們民間的銀行民營的銀行也可以請財政部請銀行公會來幫忙大家一起來使用這樣子的一個平台可不可以"},{"start":221.437,"end":238.272,"text":"部長民營的銀行以我所知現在他們在想的是另外再用他自己的短盤因為一開頭是表示是政府發的好那如果一開始表示是政府發的那他們銀行體系國營、關股、銀行可不可以加入這個我們就是用共同供應契約的方式我們盡快來協調"},{"start":239.293,"end":259.989,"text":"你說的民營銀行沒有辦法用一開頭的簡訊短碼但他另外創一個系統我們在宣傳的力道上是不是都要讓民眾能夠簡單直接就認知知道說這是真的不是假的我想像55688就不是一開頭現在大家都認得了所以我覺得還是短碼這件事情也是可以宣傳的"},{"start":260.489,"end":276.251,"text":"好那所以第一個跟退府會商量所有的天然氣公司這個你要去好好的研究一下去邀他們加入第二個我們的關國銀行那明明銀行另外一個體系我們又如何跟銀行公會去要求去"},{"start":276.932,"end":296.957,"text":"合作我覺得這很重要我們盡快辦理而且會書面跟我們說我希望是越來越多啦越來越多啦能夠呢建立我們111的這個簡訊平台這叫什麼這也品牌啦對啊就讓民眾知道說這是真的啦你剛剛說僅此一家嘛別無分號僅此一家別無分號啦所以這是真的不是假的啦好不好來第二個"},{"start":298.957,"end":302.46,"text":"我相信很多人都不知道發生什麼事連我自己也不知道為什麼我的這個FB不能用我的帳號被登出"},{"start":319.773,"end":336.907,"text":"部長你有沒有站在一般的民眾用戶的感受一下說我被害了是不是我的資料有沒有全部消失了我現在要去哪裡問問個出個所以然來在發生的當下沒有人可以問欸你知道這件事嗎部長"},{"start":337.788,"end":364.6,"text":"我知道這件事而且那是因為我平常有在用X.com就以前的Twitter所以臉書的人還要跑去Twitter上面解釋發生什麼事情對所以最後是由Twitter這邊的X上面才知道這個狀況啊對不對那所以包括IG臉書然後Trade通通甚至還有其他的通通都不能用平台那我就請教一下因為呢這個Meta在台灣沒有落地那如果發生像這樣的事情我們找誰"},{"start":366.88,"end":382.667,"text":"在台灣其實是有落地的公司是有落地那接下來我就問你了接下來來下一頁那因為這一次的事件聽說祖克伯的淨資產損失了880億但是呢我們消失了那兩個小時所有搭檔機的那兩個小時我們所有的用戶的損失誰來賠償要找誰賠償"},{"start":388.149,"end":396.716,"text":"我所謂損失不是我們個人在使用也許沒有盈利行為那很多人是用這個平台在盈利做生意在生活的請問那怎麼辦你這是你是專家嘛你可以告訴我怎麼辦"},{"start":406.844,"end":432.875,"text":"我想我們現在在跟內政部一起跟各部會一起在你一個叫做打詐的就是專法名字還沒有確定了在這裡面就是在講這些達到一定規模當然臉書已經達到不管什麼規模他都達到了達到一定規模的這個境外的這個廣告平台他必須不是只是設代理人而已還必須要在您剛剛關心的這一些包含他的這個消費者保護防詐等等這一方面要盡到一定的義務"},{"start":433.775,"end":457.671,"text":"那這部分我們之前一個挑戰就是說經濟部到目前為止雖然他原德答應但是還沒有真的把廣告平台業的目的數也主管機關移給我們所以我們現在是比較是側面了解的狀況那一旦那現在的主管機關是誰那我去找他因為廣告業其實之前沒有分成網路或者是實體所以包含燈箱、扛棒什麼這些東西他登記的時候都還是登記在經濟部商業署"},{"start":458.251,"end":478.656,"text":"可是這樣子的一個邏輯是一個好像遠古時代的邏輯欸我們現在台灣已經進步到21世紀了我們的網路世界都已經到上太空了我們的法規制度怎麼還在這樣子的遠古時代本來我們也要把防火電跟電商應該分開嘛 對不對我們政府部門的腳步不夠快嘛"},{"start":479.196,"end":508.376,"text":"我們是主動跟經濟部要求我們最近像那個電商的部分我們跟經濟部談妥了我們就說那可不可以盡快就把這個也是同樣無實體網路平台廣告趕快給我們這樣所以第一個請跟經濟部講那現在這個狀況那我的球場我用戶的權益誰來政府可以幫我們人民主張什麼那我們可以讓我們人民知道說欸你如果因為這一次的這一個這個兩個小時消失不見的大蕩雞而損失的這個"},{"start":509.336,"end":523.85,"text":"的權益該由誰來主張該向誰主張我覺得這個是政府應該有的責任第二個我跟你講我更害怕的是什麼你看到這個標題這個全球大宕機的原因不尋常有三個組織宣稱是他們聯手發動攻擊"},{"start":528.354,"end":545.161,"text":"那你看喔全球最高端的這個駭客供給可以讓Meta集團裡面的平台當機了兩個多小時甚至連美國政府都要出面來關心瞭解這是一件非常非常"},{"start":546.301,"end":547.382,"text":"非常非常重要。"},{"start":561.147,"end":561.367,"text":"謝謝何委員"}]}},{"id":"149565","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149565","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe645904e3448840b0afe835f95dd6e817f8ba9b0039caa7a6103f035c999116f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"11:38:01 - 11:46:41","影片長度":"00:08:40","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":520,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:46:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:38:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":651,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（11時38分）主席，請唐部長上台。"],["主席：請唐部長。"],["唐部長鳳：委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：唐部長，您這份報告寫了69頁，本席滿辛苦的看完，但感覺起來滿不舒服的，因為就像在參加作文比賽。一開始的第一頁第一段就充滿所謂的傳統價值，說三發──社發、產發、突發，本席覺得你們乾脆說你發、我發、大家發就好，這樣比較快。像這樣的口號治國是在浪費我們納稅人的錢，本席認為滿不妥的。請你很快速的回答，你們的報告說到對社會共榮、協助產業轉型和提升應變韌性的，績效在哪裡？請給本席這三項數據。"],["唐部長鳳：第一個，我們透過像111這樣的簡訊平臺，確保所有的公部門，包含地方政府，當他們傳送簡訊及傳達其他資訊的時候，都可以很容易被辨識，這部分不是只有數位部或中央機關而已，是同時讓包含國營事業等單位都受惠，這是第一件。所有機關加起來，我們已經發送五百七十多萬則，到年底會有一億則，這是第一個數據。","第二個，我們現在透過電子簽章法，這個法案已經送到貴院，如果廣告的主管機關從經濟部移到數位部，我們希望可以重現電商的改變。一年多前，165專線的高風險賣場大概都是我們主管的大型電商，現在已經歸零5個月，這是第二個數據。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝部長。其實本席更關心的，也是這幾年中華民國國人最關心的，就是是否能夠成功打擊詐騙。"],["唐部長鳳：對啊！"],["林委員沛祥：部長，你說你們落實行政院新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版，但是老實說，本席實在看不出來你們真正的成效在哪裡，尤其是你們的通報數從112年單月最高的1,600件，下降到今年1月份的時候，已經到每月200件。"],["唐部長鳳：這是遊戲點數，這部分。"],["林委員沛祥：只有針對遊戲點數？"],["唐部長鳳：這是遊戲點數，你剛剛那個數據是遊戲點數。"],["林委員沛祥：遊戲點數，其實這個數據來講的話，你說臺灣的詐騙通報人數只會有200件。"],["唐部長鳳：那是遊戲點數，是我們主管的各個行業裡面的某一個。"],["林委員沛祥：OK，好。我想請問你們這個數據從哪裡來的？"],["唐部長鳳：這個當然是從165，就是遊戲點數……的平台。"],["林委員沛祥：165詐騙，所以就是說其實是有通報200件，但是如果沒有被通報，其實還不知道。"],["唐部長鳳：其實委員可能了解，就是說現在不管電商還是遊戲點數，因為我們這個聯防成功，已經不是詐騙集團最愛用的方式了。"],["林委員沛祥：OK，好，老實說我其實在這邊想請問一件事，比較像管理學上的事情，就是所謂錯誤的政策比貪污更可怕，這件事唐部長是否認同？"],["唐部長鳳：您若是指這個數位身分證的話，我相信這個政策在推行的時候，是因為社會上有更多的期待。"],["林委員沛祥：結論講起來，不是說這個是錯誤政策，政策面錯誤與否，這我不敢講，只是說數位身分證畢竟來講無論如何戛然而止，然後目前來講沒有任何一個政府官員為此件事來說一聲道歉，花了2.8億元，內政部長說這不是賠償，這是耗損的金額，然後沒有一個官員為這個錯誤的決策做出任何負責道歉，而且最後面還是感覺好像是我們這些政府官員們還是有功的，將損耗降到最低，然後全民應該給你們拍拍手，是嗎？這是你們覺得這樣子最後面的態度嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：我先正面回答委員的問題，我不認為當時回應社會上面對於專法跟獨立個資會的需求，這件事情表示本來的政策就是像您剛講戛然而止，是說我們要先回應社會上對這兩個的需求。"],["林委員沛祥：好，我想最後面，剛剛已經有差不多十幾位同仁都已經詢問過這句話，請問部長，您認為數位身分證這件事到底是好還是不好？未來你會再執行嗎？要執行，如何執行？"],["唐部長鳳：是，我想身分證現在大家用的這個版本，它在防偽上面現在碰到非常大的挑戰，這個是絕對需要解決的，這是第一點。第二個，如果是內政部在換發身分證的時候，同時給予自然人憑證的這個選項，這個是屬於內政部的權責。但是第三個，我想在個資方面，會不會因為這樣子被政府收集太多或目的外利用等等，需要一個專法跟一個獨立個資會，當年民間的這兩個訴求，我也是贊成的。"],["林委員沛祥：好，唐部長其實我們都知道今年的數位部預算多了將近三分之一，足足18億元的預算，當然我記得新聞報導上面寫說，數位發展部的經費雖然多三分之一，但是在14個部會裡面還是比較低的。"],["唐部長鳳：倒數，數一數二。"],["林委員沛祥：同時也有說，據說有其他部會的業務會移轉過來，請問具體有哪些業務移轉到數位發展部？為什麼移轉過來？"],["唐部長鳳：如果從現在往未來講的話，我們最重要的一個就是剛才講到的網路廣告平台業，我們爭取從經濟部移過來，經濟部已經初步表示同意，當然行政院還要做最後的裁奪，過來之後我們對Facebook、Google才具有目的事業主管機關的權力。"],["林委員沛祥：為什麼問到這個原因就是在這裡，因為我還是回到全國國人現在最關心的是如何遏止詐騙，如何讓詐騙犯能夠獲得應有的懲罰，然後如何預防詐騙再度發生，而如果這個粉絲專頁沒有藍勾勾，基本上沒有這個blue check，就表示這不是我本身的專頁，而這個粉絲專頁現在還在，我剛剛在下面備詢的時候，我發現這一個假帳號還在，而在的原因是因為我1月13日當選國會議員，1月18日這個假粉專就成立了，而到目前為止，甚至這個人數現在還在加，我們也沒有辦法去制止它，剛剛前一秒，10分鐘之內它還在上面，我想像這樣的問題已經不是只有我個人的問題，所有的國會議員、所有的名人，像這樣的名人詐騙已經變成是一個詐騙集團最喜歡利用，利用名人的光環來去操作的目的，來去引誘這些不知道的人，想請問唐部長，數位發展部在未來如何遏止跟協助打擊此等犯罪行為？"],["唐部長鳳：委員講得非常好，如果未來我們真的成為網路廣告業的主管機關，而且在大院支持底下，電子簽章法新版可以三讀通過，我們接下來會做的事情就是會透過數位簽章的方式，來驗證這個人他是不是真的跟您同名同姓，或者跟誰同名同姓這樣子，這件事情就可以有效的把這種假冒名人的、投資廣告等等減到最低。"],["林委員沛祥：那現在呢？"],["唐部長鳳：現在是協助165做快速通報。"],["林委員沛祥：我現在是個受害者，不是以一個國會議員身分，而是以一個受害者身分在這邊講這件事情，如果今天不是我有國會殿堂這個平台可以發聲的話，其他很多像我一樣的人，是無法有這個機會跟數位發展部來講說我們該怎麼辦的，請問如果現在該怎麼做呢？"],["唐部長鳳：我們現在是協助165刑事局，跟這些大的平台有一個快速的通道，所以還是要到165的網站或者是到警察局去檢舉，我也同意這並不是源頭防止的做法，這就是為什麼我們要推電子簽章法，以及請經濟部把廣告主管機關移過來。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，今天我是國會議員，我有機會在這邊跟你這樣講，你講到165之後，然後未來中央政府會因為我的案子去特案辦理，但是如果一般的民眾遇到這樣的狀況，他是求助無門的時候，怎麼辦？"],["唐部長鳳：就是165的LINE或是網頁。"],["林委員沛祥：我也可以看到這邊點進去，這邊另外還有一個平台，點進去之後，另外一個平台會把他們轉送到別的地方去，再去做另外一方面的，不管是口號也好，還是話術上面的剝削，我想請問這個時候，你該怎麼防制呢？"],["唐部長鳳：這個也還是在Facebook嗎？"],["林委員沛祥：Facebook之後，因為再點進去之後，它會說你到另外一個平台，因為我知道，我們有人實驗過，你到另外一個平台，再跟我們去做另外一個方面資訊確認。"],["唐部長鳳：如果那個平台是，好比說一站式詐騙等等，這個我們去年已經下架了，幫助刑事局下架了三萬多件，這個點擊連到國外網站，你會看到被165扣押這件事情，這個是我們有做的，但是我也很同意光是這樣子是不夠，因為這個還不是源頭，這個是後面的部分，還是要有人發現，所以我們現在有做主動的掃描，去專門掃描，還沒有被害人的情況下，我們先掃到看起來像仿冒的等等。"],["林委員沛祥：我希望這個事情數位發展部未來，不知道唐部長你會不會還在任，但是不管怎麼樣，數位發展部在未來針對科技詐騙這件事情，我覺得應該把它放在first priority。"],["唐部長鳳：源頭防下絕對是我們的first priority。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝。"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝。"],["主席：好，林委員發言完畢，現在請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","許智傑","葛如鈞","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","游顥","林沛祥","何欣純","徐巧芯","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","黃珊珊","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭"],"page_start":349,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就\n「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.6890937500000001,"end":3.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.03846875,"end":8.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.51909375,"end":11.219093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.594718750000002,"end":10.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.72534375,"end":15.977843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.43346875,"end":45.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.89721875,"end":89.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.50659375000001,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.61034375000001,"end":99.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.36284375000001,"end":118.15596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.79721875000001,"end":120.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.86471875000001,"end":118.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.96596875,"end":122.39159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.39159375000001,"end":125.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.61471875000001,"end":131.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.94721875000002,"end":134.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.72721875000002,"end":137.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.71409375000002,"end":137.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.98409375,"end":141.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.00096875,"end":138.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.03471875,"end":138.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.38471875000002,"end":142.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.74284375000002,"end":145.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.39659375000002,"end":152.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.76659375,"end":152.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.91846875000002,"end":153.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.30659375000002,"end":153.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.94784375,"end":153.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.09971875000002,"end":163.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.08971875,"end":171.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.60784375,"end":205.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.83846875,"end":208.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.40346875,"end":223.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.23221875000002,"end":240.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.54784375000003,"end":229.56471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.16221875000002,"end":240.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.41534375,"end":268.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.81596875,"end":269.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.60909375,"end":296.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.38721875000005,"end":285.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.87909375000004,"end":315.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.91409375,"end":379.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.73221875,"end":346.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.24159375000005,"end":407.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.86221875,"end":424.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.26846875,"end":440.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.72159375,"end":454.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.01909375,"end":454.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.12034375,"end":469.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.15409375,"end":454.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.99784375,"end":456.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.45971875000004,"end":471.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.24846875000003,"end":479.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.28221875,"end":471.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.90971875,"end":505.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.65659375,"end":514.8872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.0559687499999,"end":516.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.4397187500001,"end":518.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.9709687500001,"end":519.1059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.1059687500001,"end":519.29159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.874,"end":2.498,"text":"主席,請唐部長上台。請唐部長"},{"start":6.916,"end":33.511,"text":"委員好唐部長您這份報告寫了69頁然後我蠻辛苦的看完了其實感覺起來蠻不舒服的因為蠻像在作文比賽您剛開始第一頁第一段就充滿了所謂的傳統價值說三發、社發、產發、突發我還覺得說你乾脆說你發我發大家發就好比較快一點像這樣的口號治國然後浪費我們納稅人的錢本席認為其實蠻不妥的"},{"start":34.291,"end":56.873,"text":"請在這邊直接很快速的回答你們上面有講你們對社會共融對提高提升產業轉型跟提升應變韌性的績效在哪裡請給我三項的數據第一個我們透過像111這樣子的簡訊平台確保說所有的公部門甚至包含地方的政府他在送簡訊以及其他私訊的傳達的時候都可以很容易的被辨識"},{"start":57.714,"end":77.333,"text":"所以不是只有數位部自己或中央機關而已是同時讓所有的包含國營、事業、社會這第1件我們已經發了所有機關加起來570多萬則出去年底會有1億則這第1個數據那第二個呢我們現在透過我們電子簽章法這個修法已經送到貴院我們現在如果經濟部把這個廣告的主管機關過來的話"},{"start":78.294,"end":97.539,"text":"我們就可以希望能夠重現我們在電商這邊我們電商這邊在一年多前是高風險賣場在165大概都是我們主管的大型電商現在已經歸零5個月了這第二個數據我其實我另外更關心的是說這幾年間其實我們最關心的這幾年間中華民國國人最關心的是不是能夠成功的打擊詐騙"},{"start":99.72,"end":116.531,"text":"唐部長你說你們落實行政院新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版但是老實講本席實在看不出來你們真正的成效在哪裡尤其是說你們通報的通報數從1、2年單月最高1600件下降到今年1月份的時候已經到每月200件這遊戲點數"},{"start":118.592,"end":123.997,"text":"這是遊戲點數,你剛那個數據是遊戲點數遊戲點數,那其實這個數據來講的話你說臺灣的詐欺人,說臺灣的受詐騙通報人數只會有兩百千嗎?那是遊戲點數嘛,是我們主管的各個行業裡面的某一個OK,好,那我想請問你們這數據從哪裡來的?這個當然是從165啊,就是遊戲點數跟聯邦的平台所以說其實是有通報兩百下"},{"start":144.538,"end":163.358,"text":"其實委員可能瞭解就是說現在不管電商還是遊戲點數因為我們這個聯邦成功已經不是詐騙集團最愛用的方式了老實說我其實在這邊想要問請問一件事比較像傳理學上的事就是所謂錯誤的政策比貪污更可怕這件事唐部長你是否認同"},{"start":164.259,"end":186.566,"text":"您若是指這個數位身份證的話我相信這個政策它在推行的時候是因為社會上有更多的期待。前面講起來不是說這錯誤政策政策面錯誤與否這我不敢講只是說數位身份證畢竟來講無論如何嘎然而止然後目前來講沒有任何一個政府官員為此為此件事來說道來說聲道歉花了2.8億內政部長說這不是賠償這是耗損的金額"},{"start":190.487,"end":207.919,"text":"然後沒有一個沒有一個官員為這個錯誤的決策做出任何負責道歉而且最後面還是說好像最後面感覺好像是我們這些政府官員們還是有功的那將損耗降到最低然後全民應該給你們拍拍手是嗎這是你們覺得這樣子最後面的態度嗎"},{"start":208.78,"end":222.441,"text":"我先正面回答委員的問題我不認為說當時回應社會上面對於專法跟獨立各自會的需求這件事情表示本來的政策就是像您剛講嘎然而止是說我們要先回應社會上對這兩個的需求"},{"start":224.295,"end":226.937,"text":"請問部長您到底認為說數位身份證這件事到底是好還是不好?那未來會再執行嗎?要執行如何執行?"},{"start":240.69,"end":266.56,"text":"我想身份證這個現在大家用的這個版本他在防衛上面現在碰到非常大的挑戰這個是絕對需要解決的這第一點第二個如果是內政部在換發身份證的時候同時給予自然人憑證的這個選項這個是屬於內政部的權責但是第三個我想在個資會不會因為這樣子被政府收集太多或目的外利用等等需要一個專法跟一個獨立個資會當年民間的這兩個訴求我也是贊成的"},{"start":268.865,"end":286.213,"text":"好,那唐部長其實我們都知道說今年的數位部預算多了今天將近多三分之一那足足18億的預算當然在我記得新聞報道上面寫說我們數位發展部的經費雖然多三分之一但是在14個部會裡面還是比較便宜的據說有其他部會的業務會移轉過來請問具體有哪些業務移轉到了數位發展部為什麼移轉過來"},{"start":297.246,"end":314.519,"text":"如果現在是從現在往未來講的話我們最重要的一個就是剛才講到的網路的廣告平台業我們爭取從經濟部移過來經濟部已經初步表示同意當然行政院還要做最後的這個裁奪那過來之後我們對Facebook、對於Google才具有目的事業主管機關的這個權利"},{"start":316.327,"end":340.043,"text":"為什麼問到這個原因就是在這裡因為還是回到全國國人現在最關心的是如何遏止詐騙如何讓詐騙犯能夠獲得應有的懲罰然後如何遏止預防詐騙再度發生而如果這個粉絲專頁是這個粉絲專頁沒有藍勾勾那基本上沒有這個Blue Check就表示說這不是我本身的專頁而這個粉絲專頁現在還在我剛剛在下面在備詢的時候我發現這一個假帳號還在"},{"start":346.087,"end":366.965,"text":"而再的原因是因為說我1月13日當選國會議員1月18日這個加凡專就成立而到目前為止已經有甚至這個人數現在還在加那我們也沒有辦法去支持他現在剛剛前一秒10分鐘之內他還在上面那我想像這樣的問題已經不是只有我個人的問題所有的國會議員所有的名人像這樣的名人詐騙已經變成是一個"},{"start":368.966,"end":389.014,"text":"詐騙集團最喜歡利用、利用名人的光環來去操作的目的．來去引誘這些不知道的人那想請問唐部長數位發展部在未來如何遏止跟協助打擊此等犯罪行為?是,委員講得非常好如果未來我們真的成為網路廣告業的主管機關而且在大院支持底下電子簽章法新版可以三讀通過"},{"start":389.794,"end":404.481,"text":"我們接下來會做的事情就是會透過數位簽章的方式來驗證說這個人他是不是真的跟您同名同姓或者跟誰同名同姓這樣子那這件事情就可以有效的把這種假冒名人的好評票投資廣告等等可以減到最低那現在呢?"},{"start":407.642,"end":421.428,"text":"我現在是個受害者,不是以國會議員身份之外,他是一個受害者身份在這邊講這件事情。如果今天不是我有國會殿堂的這個平台可以發聲的話,其他很多人像我一樣的人是無法在這個機會跟數位發展部來去講說我們該怎麼辦的。"},{"start":423.149,"end":439.936,"text":"那請問如果現在該怎麼做呢?我們現在是協助165就是刑事局那邊跟這些大的平台有一個快速的通道所以還是要到165的網站或者是到警察去檢舉我也同意這並不是源頭防止的做法這就是為什麼我們要推數位簽賬法、電子簽賬法以及請經濟部把廣告主管機關移過來"},{"start":440.856,"end":469.44,"text":"部長如果說是今天如果是我我是國會議員我有機會跟你這樣講說你有165講到之後然後未來這邊的中央政府會因為我的案子去辦特案辦理但是如果一般的民眾遇到這樣的狀況他是求助我們的時候該怎麼辦這是165的你也可以看到說這邊有點進去這邊另外還有另外一個平台點進去之後另外一個平台會轉送把他們轉送到別的地方去再去做另外一方面的不管是口號也好還是話術上面的剝削那我想請問這個時候你該怎麼樣去防治呢"},{"start":470.761,"end":476.405,"text":"對,如果那個平台是好比方一站式詐騙等等 這個我們去年已經下架了幫助刑事局下架了三萬多件所以這個點擊連到國外網站你會看到被165扣押這件事情這個是我們有做的"},{"start":492.876,"end":519.336,"text":"但是我也很同意說光是這樣子是不夠因為這個還不是源頭這個是後面的部分還是要有人發現所以我們現在有做主動的掃描去專門掃描說還沒有被害人的情況下我們先掃到看起來像仿冒的等等我希望這個事情數位發展部未來不知道說唐部長您會不會還在任但是不管怎麼樣數位發展部在未來針對科技詐騙這件事情我覺得應該把它放在first priority源頭房價絕對我們first priority好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149564","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149564","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe57857a0cdcdde768afe835f95dd6e817f8ba9b0039caa7a6d9703f2b8768d29e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"11:28:32 - 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這個我們有積極的在辦理但是這個積極辦理的情況之下 難道在民間還有民眾啊那就到時候還被騙了800萬再騙到3000萬那就到時候回頭來講這個宣導其實是非常的有待加強很多我覺得還是要在源頭啦 像今天反復提到電子簽賬法就是我們宣導是到大家已經收到了 要他不要去點但是可能一開始就不要讓他看這個廣告"},{"start":179.172,"end":198.871,"text":"反正是希望說數位發展不能夠加強那同樣的延續了剛才許多委員所提到的這個數位身分證的部分啊那數位身分證的話其實目前來講我們看到暫緩可能暫緩的部分內政部大概一直強調的是資安的問題還是數位的問題那我想問一下"},{"start":199.591,"end":208.554,"text":"像吳正勝主委他也直接講說這個過程中他到最後原本是10億到時候調節金額落在2.8億但事實上這是由全民買單但內政部他也強調說這都是在資安的問題他們現在也沒有辦法來去進行這個"},{"start":221.778,"end":244.606,"text":"我想先還原一下就是當時內政部也好或民間的這個人權團體的期待是有一個獨立的各資保護會各資保護會當然跟資安是有關的但是各資保護會是獨立的意思是說他必須來監督像我們數位部有沒有過分收集各資過分利用那現在這個部分已經成立了那所以說未來的數位身份證還要推行嗎"},{"start":245.086,"end":267.195,"text":"就是這個獨立的各自專責機關以及如果內政部要立一個專法這個是當時民間提的兩大條件那數位發展部支持數位身份證繼續推行嗎我們在國際評比上面我們其實已經有數位的身份證件就是自然憑證跟現在行動的自然憑證自然憑證歸自然憑證因為在目前來講有完成到這個數位身份證的國家總共有多少國家"},{"start":267.715,"end":284.02,"text":"我剛剛提到一百二十多國裡面包含我們喔?一百二十八國嗎?包含我們喔?但是問題是你說的是那個自然憑證 對啊但是問題是數位身份證跟自然憑證是不同的阿他等於有點像自然憑證跟實際身份證這不能這不能語目混珠阿好像貼在一起這是兩卡合一這是兩碼子是兩卡合一"},{"start":285.92,"end":305.456,"text":"當初在數位身分證原本的構想那本來就不是用自然的品證那是一個延伸甚至加強甚至一開始還自然品證還想要再整合T-Roll還包括政府機關的資料交換還想整合駕照跟健保卡T-Roll我們有在做對那問題是這個整合的數位身分證未來還要再做推行"},{"start":306.036,"end":307.156,"text":"所以說這個身份證就沒有要做了"},{"start":326.343,"end":349.367,"text":"我們當時我在院裡擔任政委的時候當時的立場其實就是大家應該要可以自由選擇就是你裡面要有自然平正規則那所以說所以我就直接就叫部長那內政部他說是職案的問題那你那時候有擔任政務委員那你也在這個過程中曾經都介入協調那所以以現在來講數位發展部的角色就是反對再去推行數位身份證"},{"start":350.147,"end":372.251,"text":"剛剛提到的是說我們這邊全力支持包含獨立的各自會的設立現在還沒有那未來如果內政部要訂一個專法也得到這個獨立各自會的同意的話那個時候才有所謂要不要繼續做的問題那時候我記得在相關討論內政部曾經也說他這四五個法規的部分其實目前還可以去補充在數位身份證上面的一個運用嘛"},{"start":372.671,"end":384.757,"text":"那所以說現在要等到訂定專法之後才要推行那部分是不是其實應該要問內政部我們這邊看到的是說我們的資安的管理包含現有的自然憑證行動自然憑證他資安無虞這個這個我們負責啊貼肉也是我們負責對那所以說"},{"start":389.259,"end":412.158,"text":"現在來講的話因為以前啦以前的話因為在民眾所講當初我記得蘇貞昌在當院長的時候說的意思來講秀才不出門能知天下事要變成秀才不出門能辦天下事那這個是想要我們來陪他對但是現在譬如說民眾覺得秀才遇到江湖郎中所以到最後把這個數位身分證暫緩了之後他這個東西就無極了"},{"start":414.54,"end":418.743,"text":"只是獨立的各自會要先成立這個不管我或者民間也都是相同的立場那這個部分我們全力幫助獨立各自會成立"},{"start":442.981,"end":460.606,"text":"我的想法是這樣就是說因為數位發展部大家對於部內是期望甚深那在內政部他一直在這個數位身份證的時候又說都是資安的問題那各自的問題那同時他一邊在印資身份證一邊做規劃的這個過程確實就有資安的餘力沒錯吧"},{"start":463.069,"end":464.67,"text":"政府去做額外的利用那變成是政府機關要負責"},{"start":481.021,"end":507.523,"text":"所以就變成一個獨立的各執會來監督政府機關那沒關係因為時間有限本期還是希望說在這個目前來講全民買單2.81的這個事情內政部他一直在回說是治安的問題那如果說數位發展部過去來講你也擔任過政務委員那你對這案子也非常的熟悉那你剛才的立場跟態度其實當然說講自然憑證之外其實你是支持這個數位身份證"},{"start":508.804,"end":524.654,"text":"我支持獨立個資會先成立至於要不要訂專法就是內政部跟這個獨立個資會但是沒有人去回答我的問題啊因為事實上印那個身份證的權責那個法的主管機關並不是我們啊我知道 這我清楚但是因為內政部他們還是回推到是數位跟資安的問題"},{"start":525.495,"end":545.523,"text":"所以所以我還是簡單講時間到那我還是要跟部長講就是說當大家都期待著這個資安跟個資的部分能夠做充分的一個保障的時候那居然有數位發展部我希望部長也能夠拿出gas還能夠讓內政部早日把這個數位身份證的事情能夠推動對不要讓人民再次當這個冤大頭謝謝委員質詢謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149563","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149563","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbeadf8331e4588e7d2dc62c46c87ca327ff8ba9b0039caa7a63b03e28eaf265d4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"12:09:49 - 12:16:20","影片長度":"00:06:31","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健康保險署、食品藥物管理署就「健保藥價調整，藥廠停產慢性病用藥之因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":391,"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:16:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T12:09:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1092,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（12時9分）謝謝主席。我們是不是請薛部長？"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。部長，今天我想大家主要是討論到健保藥價的部分，其實健保涉及到我們醫療機構相關的營收。就我所知，一般的醫療機構不管大的小的，它的收入來源一方面是健保的給付，另外一個很重要的當然就是所謂門診掛號費的收入，所以我剛剛看到你的報告第1頁就提到，主要是希望能夠反映藥品支付價格調降來控制藥費，在這合理範圍裡面來撙節健保的支出，包含剛剛委員的臨時提案裡面也有提到健保的支出，當然健保現在可能是入不敷出，所以是不是有可能考慮用公務預算來撥補？因為像其他的勞保或公務的保險，如果在保險經費不夠的時候都會使用公務預算來撥補、來彌平可能虧損的部分。","在健保這部分，當然健保要不要撥補我們未來再討論，我今天想要講的是掛號費提升的問題、解封的問題，其實我想跟部長討論，部長說這個是市場機制，但是我想醫療行為很難用市場機制來認定，如果今天醫療行為要用市場機制來認定的話，那醫院的管理單位就不是衛福部，可以把它移去經濟部了。","部長，我還是希望這個可以再調整，因為你今天受訪的時候，就很肯定的說這件事情一定會執行，但在執行之前，我想問部長，有沒有這個可能……至少你要召開一個公聽會來瞭解，除了醫界的意見之外，我想使用者、各民間團體、民眾的意見也很重要，就是我願意、能夠花多少錢來一般的診所看診、願意花多少錢去掛特別門診的掛號費，我想這是不一樣的結構，所以一刀切的說全面性都可以去調整、調漲，這對民生衝擊會非常大。尤其這幾個月來很多的費用都在調漲，不管是物價也好，電費也好，如果現在連掛號費也要調漲的話，我想對一般的民眾的衝擊將會非常大。部長，你對這件事情有什麼看法？有沒有延後實施的可能性？有沒有可能再徵詢更多的意見再去執行這件事情？"],["薛部長瑞元：首先跟委員報告，其實對於掛號費這種行政費用的管制，法律上是沒有根據的。"],["黃委員健豪：我知道。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以既然醫界提出來這樣質疑的時候，我們就必須要去做處理。"],["黃委員健豪：醫界在質疑，當然主要還是因為收入的問題，所以才會提到健保的給付點值是不是也是一個很重要的環節？"],["薛部長瑞元：健保的部分是另外一件事情，健保事實上對於所謂的營運成本，包括租金、水電，還有人員薪資上漲的壓力等等，健保沒有辦法完全去cover，但是那個是行政成本，所以我們其實是解開那個管制，並不是說它一定會調漲，比方說，我們現在對於我們可以掌握的公立醫院，我們可能就是讓它先不漲。"],["黃委員健豪：公立醫院先不漲？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝部長。這個東西的確就是如此，多數民眾一看到掛號費可能會調漲的時候，大家心理壓力其實也滿大的，當然整個醫療收入的部分，到底是掛號費比較重要，還是健保的費用比較重要，因為今天時間不太夠，所以我有機會再來跟部長討論。","最後有一個話題，就是大家很注重的蘇丹紅議題，我想食安五環有一件事很重要，就是所謂進口的階段能夠進行稽查，但是海關在稽查的時候，食安五環針對的是食品，但蘇丹紅這個原料好像是工業產品，所以它是不是不在目前食安五環的管制範圍裡面？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是說，它作為食品添加物是一個不合法的，所以我們還是要管。"],["黃委員健豪：理論上它進來時的申報，不會說這是要加到食品裡面去。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員健豪：它進來申報的時候，一定是用什麼其他的名義，可能是以工業製品等等名義申報進入臺灣，然後在臺灣加工。"],["薛部長瑞元：目前的狀況不是這樣，目前的狀況是它在國外就已經是加到辣椒粉裡面，所以我們看到的是辣椒粉，我們……"],["黃委員健豪：看到成品就對了？"],["薛部長瑞元：並不是說蘇丹紅另外進來，然後在國內去添加，並不是這樣子。"],["黃委員健豪：如果是成品進來的話，理論上應該在邊境管制的時候就應該查到才對啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以我們現在會提升管制的一個措施，也就是說，像這一類的我們會跟環境部一起來討論，包括哪一些工業產品、工業使用的原料，它不可以加在食品裡面，我們會把它找出來，一旦驗到的話，那就是100%去擋了。"],["黃委員健豪：部長還有食藥署，我想提供一個民間的建議，因為我們家以前就是做食品業的所以很清楚，其實哪些不肖業者會把不該加在食品裡面的東西放進食品添加物裡面，食藥署去業界瞭解一下就會很清楚。這個部分不能用善良民眾的心、想法去想這個事情，要從不肖廠商的想法、節省成本的想法去想這個事情，哪些工業製品會被添加到食物裡面，包含在境外管制、港口管制的時候就應該去處理，不是進來發生食安風暴後才去查緝，所以這部分我希望部長跟我們署長要辛苦一點，去瞭解一下業界實際上面會被拿來添加的工業物質有哪些，同時也把它列出清單，這可能不是你們衛福部第一線在管，這不是你們直接的業務，可能是經濟部或財政部的業務，這部分你們也要提供清單，在進出口的時候就應該有一個有效的管制，好，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請謝衣鳯委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-4","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","林德福","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","李彥秀","林淑芬","黃健豪","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","林憶君","劉建國","陳瑩","楊曜","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健康保險署、食品藥物管理署就「健保藥價調整，藥廠停產慢性病用\n藥之因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.15284375,"end":5.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.24096875,"end":7.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.755343750000002,"end":8.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.73346875,"end":40.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.10471875,"end":71.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.23909375000001,"end":84.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.92909375,"end":108.72284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.77346875,"end":146.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.09659375,"end":147.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.00784375,"end":151.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.99034375000002,"end":160.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.82034375,"end":160.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.88346875000002,"end":169.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.59096875,"end":176.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.21034375000002,"end":195.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.40534375000001,"end":201.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.61971875,"end":210.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.37784375,"end":211.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.40721875000003,"end":211.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.50846875000002,"end":211.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.59284375000001,"end":211.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.71096875,"end":216.08159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.21721875,"end":212.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.31784375,"end":218.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.30909375000002,"end":244.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.78159375,"end":256.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start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謝謝主席 那我們是不是部長不在嘛 那我們是不是請次長現在最大的是副部長喔 確定要次長嗎好 副部長好 那個博副部長請"},{"start":15.487,"end":32.569,"text":"副部長好副部長好這個我很少來這邊當然是有一些是屬於陳情陳情要知道一些狀況是就是說因為現在我們叫招然後禁食的叫招都是7天以上那"},{"start":33.93,"end":59.57,"text":"不少來參加教召的人後來有跟我反應說因為這些教召當然有涉及到要吃肉吃肉比較有賺錢比較有訓練然後他們是認為說普遍的現在如果每一天大概就是99塊跟112年有七兩塊但是我們也知道現在整個物價是上漲的所以如果你抓美人每日99塊這樣的金額勒"},{"start":62.772,"end":77.742,"text":"我們有辦法確保說,他們叫招的時候,他們這樣一日煮副食,一日三餐,有辦法確保他們裡面的伙食可以讓他們吃得飽嗎?"},{"start":82.039,"end":109.822,"text":"可不可以說明一下謝謝委員關心我想這個問題我們也關注到了所以在114年的時候我們火事費也調高都調高了那我們現在跟一般的官秘是一樣的那我也希望就是說像在叫召的這個每一次這個結束以後我們都會說相關的意見調查那我們的聯市有關火事的部分他都拉入意見所以在今年他已經調高了今年有調高是的是的對因為"},{"start":110.703,"end":119.85,"text":"因為我沒去交召我不知道怎麼辦所以我也不方便講到講的沒問題報問謝民的關心他們有跟我們反映就是說第一個是火死然後第二個就是說"},{"start":121.226,"end":146.272,"text":"因為我們現在叫招嘛,他們大概都有野地訓練,那野地訓練就是都會帶那個喉嚨,喉嚨照空間,或是喉嚨照空間,學校是比較沒有問題齁,可是如果跟喉嚨照空間的時候,但是那個廟宇啦,他們的洗手空間,那個要便宜的地方,不足啊。"},{"start":148.504,"end":162.422,"text":"或是說沒關係,歡迎野地訓練的大家進來找好像也真的不是很好啦不是,不能這樣子,是對啊,可是就變成說我們在規劃他們訓練當然說,如果是真的發生要到野外去那當然又有野外比較嚴苛的條件"},{"start":164.204,"end":177.675,"text":"但是如果我們是跟廟宇合作,阿廟當然就是以他現有的設備,以黑壓克頂平庸設備,阿現有的設備如果在這個洗手間不足"},{"start":178.683,"end":179.203,"text":"那這部分怎麼辦?"},{"start":203.158,"end":204.861,"text":"這我們應該要做的,是的。"},{"start":219.341,"end":245.492,"text":"就是說我們知道現在如果君子如果過世那他的另一半夫妻就可以領這個所謂伴奉這個應該是屬於這個善養撫慰金但是我最近也是接到有陳情跟我說的一個狀況就是說假如這一個夫妻兩個都是君子"},{"start":247.402,"end":271.483,"text":"兩個同為君子那如果其中一個假如因為服役期間過世了那這個他老婆會不會有這樣這個半縫的這個服衛金的福利會有嗎?理論上是不行的他告訴我是沒有啦但是這中間有一個不合理的地方因為我想在這裡替國軍爭取一下"},{"start":273.385,"end":287.57,"text":"如果這個昂阿某他不是兩個都君子他如果昂是軍人某是一般公務員比如說他是老師那這個君子的過世的這個老師還是有半封喔"},{"start":290.009,"end":309.893,"text":"關於這個我想就退輔制度這樣輔續的條例上來講它本身來講它有它的限制因素就是說就是過去的概念是單一信奉的概念但是如果說都是從公職那在比如說同樣都是君子有一個往生同樣君子的話就沒有嘛因為它就說你已經有自己的奉旨了所以就找了這一個"},{"start":314.614,"end":338.89,"text":"但是我要舉例子,我舉的例子就是很明顯他同樣都是公務員,公務員也是有他的婦婿的金額,但是他因為兩個都是君子,所以就沒有我覺得這你們可以思考看看,在公平性而言,他會覺得我們阿嬤們都是君人,這更應該要獎勵他"},{"start":340.211,"end":340.451,"text":"蔡易餘"}]}},{"id":"149561","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149561","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbee4f1faf5becfedc5a2c0e3c4ee948455f8ba9b0039caa7a67c441aaa3034334b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:01:19 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12:12:55","影片長度":"00:11:36","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":696,"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:12:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T12:01:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":605,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時1分）謝謝召委，有請院長。"],["主席：來，院長，謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：委員早。"],["范委員雲：院長早安，應該是要午安了。今天的主題是要跟您一起檢討故宮相關的無障礙參與規劃機制，因為「無障更有愛，文化更平權」，我想院長應該有聽過CRPD，這個您知道嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["范委員雲：好，知道。它就是國際的身心障礙者權利公約，裡面就有講到確保所有人平等享有的人權及基本自由，然後相關的尊嚴等。臺灣也有身心障礙者權益保障法，之前俊翰律師過世，他就是在推動修法如何能夠讓我們身心障礙者權益保障法能夠符合這個國際公約的精神。就算還沒有修，我們應該很快就會修，可是在原本的第一條裡面就有身心障礙者權益的平等，保障他的「文化等之機會」，「文化等之機會」就母法而言，博物館絕對是文化平等參與的機會。院長，你覺得現在有平等參與嗎？以故宮為例身障者有平等看到博物館嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮一直在努力，因為故宮把友善、共融列為文化平權的一個目標。基本上來講，我們就是……"],["范委員雲：好，我知道你們在努力，那您覺得離平等參與大概還要幾年？以你們目前的努力速度，您講個數字好嗎？總要估計一下嘛！"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為社會的期待不一樣，它會與時俱進，所以沒有年限的問題，一定會做好。"],["范委員雲：我們這個法是講平等，沒有說慢慢來耶！就是平等耶！您估計要幾年？您如果有檢視過的話，要幾年？"],["蕭院長宗煌：沒有檢視過。"],["范委員雲：沒有檢視過，這就是問題。我們根據學者的研究，英國的博物館不管是大英博物館或什麼，曾經有檢視過他們通過相關的修法之後，10年才能做到，表示它有在努力，有個中長期計畫嘛！其實臺灣就是沒有，所以身障權益真的是刻不容緩，我們既有的法規就已經說要保障平等的文化參與權。","我現在先講兩個，因為身障權益在我剛剛講的國際公約裡面有很多，但是有兩點跟博物館非常相關，第一個，身障者本人充分參與，你相關的決策有沒有本人充分參與？充分參與的意思是過半的人數。第二個，合理調整及增加無障礙軟硬體設施，就是你的展覽，包含常態及非常態展要合理調整。這邊是我們最近開記者會的照片，大家不分黨派都讚賞陳俊翰律師對人權的努力，要繼承他的遺志，所以我希望故宮現在就把它做好。","剛剛聽起來，院長您都承認沒有檢視過，所以我想故宮就是還沒有準備好，我已經幫你回答了。我們先不要講其他的博物館，故宮之前幾任院長都說故宮要做我國博物館的最佳示範，連你們都沒有準備好，其他的博物館我們就可以不用問了，所以這個問題我幫你回答，故宮還沒準備好，院長您同意吧？"],["蕭院長宗煌：的確，我們還有很多精進的空間。"],["范委員雲：好，今天就是跟您一起討論如何精進。我先以我們瞭解到的一個我最熟的博物館，之前我跟您講過，我在英國一年的時候剛好住在V&A附近，我天天都去那裡，因為他們是免費，那是另外一件事。這個V&A Museum有一個主管、專責身心障礙與社會參與的設計，而且還有專門的manager，故宮沒有專人在做這件事吧？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們展服處有在做這一部分的工作，但是沒有單獨一個……"],["范委員雲：但是沒有一個專門……"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，沒有一個專門的單位。"],["范委員雲：譬如說人家叫做access and equality的manager，我們沒有這樣的人嘛？"],["蕭院長宗煌：沒有。"],["范委員雲：所以你看，我們連這個人事都沒有。V&A的博物館……"],["蕭院長宗煌：可是V&A整個人員編制跟故宮比起來，他們比故宮大很多，因為大家都不曉得國外博物館的編制人力有多大。"],["范委員雲：故宮有多少專職的人？V&A有多少？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上來講，現在我沒有精確的數據，我不敢講，但是我……"],["范委員雲：您知道故宮有多少人吧？"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮的預算員額總共是489，原來493，現在489。"],["范委員雲：那V&A是我們的2倍還是10倍？我們也是要公平來看。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，這個部分我可能還要再查資料。"],["范委員雲：好，因為您剛剛講到的話，之後給我們這個資料，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["范委員雲：我想不管它是2倍，我們也要做到二分之一嘛！它那個manager手下如果10個人，我們手下是不是也打折一下，5個人？所以我們要講人力的話，也是要等比例的看。","好，我們回來講V&A的策略是什麼？第一個是可近性，譬如說視障者透過Seeing AI發展，然後聽障者可以透過共感穿戴裝置，這只是其中的幾項，它還有更多，V&A有觸摸專區，就是如果你看不到，你可以來這個專區觸摸。我再講一個別的，如果不講V&A，講大英博物館的話，它有定時定點提供適合的古文物讓視障者可以觸摸，然後針對身障者還有可攜式的折疊椅可以借用，這個不需要很多錢，也都是可以做的。","參與跟多元我就不講了，譬如和身障團體合作，定期辦專屬於他們的活動等等，這部分如果院長有興趣的話，國內已經有人研究出來了，我發現這個研究是10年前的，但和現在的情況並沒有差異很大，改善沒有很多。我想問的是，故宮的答案我已經看到了，並沒有無障礙環境整體規劃的機制，院長您承認嗎？並沒有嘛！你們偶爾會做一些，但是沒有專責的，沒有專人負責，也沒有一個定期開會的制度設計，更沒有因為這樣的機制出來的中長期計畫吧？院長，是不是沒有？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，我們有提升服務品質的，也就是一個觀眾服務的定期檢討會議，這是由副院長召開的。當然沒有錯，我們並沒有一個完整的計畫報告書，關於無障礙環境的規劃的確是沒有，但是這個我們可以來做。"],["范委員雲：好，我知道你們有那個，因為你們都有給我相關的資料，不過真的很遺憾，這裡面提到軟硬體，但軟體只有兩行字，就是「網站2.0版無障礙化」，硬體是稍微多一點，可是常態、非常態你們自己也不清楚，「器物展廳多設有點字輸出」，「多」也不知道是百分之多少，沒關係！但是非常態的這種展覽就只能講出一個，然後我們也曾經做過大字版說明，只是曾經有過，但都不是一個系統性的，所以我想剛剛這個部分就代表有一些，但是真的沒有一個常態性的機制。","第二個，你們這個無障礙相關的規劃決策機制有沒有做到？我講的是決策機制哦！不是說大家今天來給個意見，有做到身障者過半的參與嗎？決策機制就是決定要怎麼做的。"],["蕭院長宗煌：過半參與當然這是一個高標準，譬如說我們要做無障礙的連通道，從至善路二段的公車亭那邊直接做一個電扶梯上去，這個我們就有找身心障礙的朋友來……"],["范委員雲：院長，抱歉！我給你打斷，因為你剛剛那個例子我等一下會講，我們有看了你們這個例子。你剛剛講高標準，我現在要跟你說，不能再講高標準了，我們這一次修法以後……"],["蕭院長宗煌：但是我們那時候就是有……"],["范委員雲：CRPD就是國際……"],["蕭院長宗煌：7個委員裡面有5個是身心障礙者，所以基本上來講，應該也是有達到……"],["范委員雲：但那個是不是決策會議？你事後把資訊給我，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["范委員雲：我剛剛要講的事情是，臺灣簽的那個公約是馬英九總統時代簽的國際公約，是過半……"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，兩公約。"],["范委員雲：所以不能說高標準，我們只是還沒有落實在所有的法規中，所以這部分要努力。","那我要肯定您，您剛剛講那個例子是沒錯啦！故宮新建工程的確有邀身障者參與，這邊有照片，的確有。你們的無障礙通道計畫經行政院核定後，你們的確有邀請身障團體參與座談，但我也要跟您講，身障團體向我陳情反映，你們應該要在前置作業階段、計畫核定前就邀他們了，而不是核定後，核定後你的預算跟什麼都固定了，你還能夠再花多少資源？他們覺得太晚了，發現不符合之處也沒有辦法改，會浪費國家公帑，反而失去了你們想要關心服務身障朋友的美意。您剛剛講的東西的確值得肯定，但我要跟您講身障團體向我辦公室陳情反映，這個還是太晚了，是在計畫核定後，應該在計畫核定前就要有，如果你有一個系統性的機制才有可能做到。最後，我知道你們有一些無障礙服務，可是有沒有定期的檢討機制？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我想我剛剛已經跟委員回答過了，我們馬上會就故宮的無障礙機制進行檢討，然後做一個計畫出來。"],["范委員雲：好，但我很擔心你的檢討是一次性行為。因為時間到了，我要求三件事，第一個，你應該要建立無障礙環境的整體規劃機制，你就算現在做不到專人，你也要告訴我是2年、3年還是要多久可以做到專人，因為您是院長，您是要爭取預算來做的，這可不可以？你剛剛講V&A的人比你多，那你研究一下你們的人跟它差多少，我們是不是等比例？好不好？你們跟他們都有交流，問一下他們手下有多少人在做這個事。第二個，如果有這個決策機制的話，要確保身障者參與過半，因為這個是CRPD國際公約的精神，是我們簽過的。第三個，你有了之後，這個服務要定期檢討，好不好？包括這個東西怎麼規劃、怎麼檢討，請問院長，幾個月內可以提出相關的規劃報告給我？"],["蕭院長宗煌：委員，3個月。"],["范委員雲：好，我就聽你的，雖然3個月有點長，但是我會追這件事，3個月不能給我2頁很空洞、沒有實質東西的內容，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝院長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝范委員，謝謝院長。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員。","林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員。","謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員。","張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員。","陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員。","麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員。","蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員。","關於今天的會議，我們作如下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員所提書面質詢或相關資料，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。對於委員質詢要求提供的相關資料或未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","陳冠廷"],"page_start":323,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130801_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.63846875,"end":4.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.586593750000002,"end":8.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.82284375,"end":9.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.56534375,"end":85.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.85721875,"end":91.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.65784375000001,"end":97.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.66159375000001,"end":101.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.17096875,"end":108.50346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.50346875000001,"end":115.27034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.34721875000001,"end":109.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.12721875000001,"end":120.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.83909375,"end":122.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.92721875000001,"end":125.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.83846875,"end":160.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.96784375000001,"end":222.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.52784375000002,"end":225.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.02096875,"end":228.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.43409375000002,"end":257.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.96534375,"end":260.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.27284375,"end":262.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.70721875000004,"end":271.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.92596875000004,"end":280.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.45221875000004,"end":274.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.39659375,"end":289.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.21784375000004,"end":289.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.04471875,"end":291.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.35659375,"end":293.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.63471875000005,"end":295.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.79471875,"end":303.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.53221875,"end":304.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.14784375,"end":312.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.39159375,"end":316.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEA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and Equality的這個Manager我們沒有這樣的人嗎沒有所以你看我們連人事號這個東西都沒有可是那個VNA的整個人員編制跟故宮比起來說他們大故宮大很多因為大家都不曉得國外博物館的編制人力有多大"},{"start":290.345,"end":304.723,"text":"我們故宮有多少專職的人?VMA有多少?基本上來講的話,現在我沒有精確的數據,我不敢講。我們故宮有多少人,您知道吧?"},{"start":306.066,"end":324.5,"text":"總共預算額是489元原來9393那B&A是我們的兩倍還是十倍我們也是要公平來看嗎對 這個部分我可能還要再查資料那因為您剛剛講的話那你之後給我們這資料好不好那我想不管他是兩倍那我們也要做到我們的二分之一嘛"},{"start":325.401,"end":344.917,"text":"他那個Manager手下如果10個人我們手下是不是也打折一下5個人所以我想我們要講人力的話也是要等比例的看好那我們回來講那他這個V&A他的策略是什麼就是第一個可敬性譬如說視障者透過Seeing AI發展然後聽障者可以透過共感穿戴裝置"},{"start":346.218,"end":364.289,"text":"這只是其中的就是還有更多的VMA它有觸摸專區就是如果你看不到的你可以來這個專區觸摸那我再講一個別的我們如果不講VMA大英博物館的話它有定時定點提供適合的古文物讓視障者可以觸摸"},{"start":365.649,"end":392.025,"text":"還有針對生長者還有可吸式的摺疊椅可以借用這個不需要很多錢嘛這個也都是可以做的所以呢參與跟多元我們就不講了比如跟生長團體合作定期辦專屬於他們的活動等等那這部分如果院長有興趣的話國內已經有人研究出來了我發現這個研究是10年前的然後跟現在的情況差異並沒有很大改善沒有很多"},{"start":392.765,"end":419.006,"text":"那所以我想詢問的是聽起來故宮我的答案已經看到了並沒有無障礙環境的整體規劃的機制嗎這個院長您承認嗎並沒有嗎你們偶爾會做一些但是沒有沒有專責的就是說專人負責也沒有一個定期的開會的這個制度設計更沒有因為這樣機制出來的中長期計劃吧院長是不是沒有"},{"start":419.446,"end":420.707,"text":"關於無障礙環境的規劃的確是沒有但是這個我們是可以來做的"},{"start":438.473,"end":438.513,"text":"范雲 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說明沒關係 我要知道你們開了幾次會 給我大事記就好了"},{"start":152.298,"end":152.358,"text":"打詐：打詐"},{"start":176.144,"end":176.905,"text":"我同意就是要全面性的來防堵啦"},{"start":195.043,"end":195.403,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":216.51,"end":243.712,"text":"虛擬貨幣"},{"start":244.053,"end":244.073,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":266.523,"end":292.423,"text":"他們現在的方式是用傳真機傳真機我們好像很久已經沒有用到傳真機了部長我現在就有一個問題詐欺犯能不能抓到是一個狀況其實民眾更關心的是我被詐騙的金額能不能要回來抓到他然後他兩手一攤一毛錢也沒有強制執行也不可能有錢錢抓不回來這個詐騙"},{"start":294.926,"end":296.007,"text":"昨天我有跟蘇巴部長、唐鳳部長討論其實政府"},{"start":324.121,"end":324.241,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":342.552,"end":342.732,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":360.595,"end":361.656,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":381.96,"end":382.14,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":407.305,"end":429.954,"text":"通報完了還是到我們的165這邊他還是一個比較傳統的路徑要花很多時間然後再去凍結的時候可能已經來不及了所以部長對於這個部分的是不是可以請你跟速發部來合作研議一下這些業者也願意來配合怎麼樣把錢能夠及早凍結我想才是打詐讓詐騙集團沒有辦法那麼快的得逞"},{"start":434.369,"end":434.709,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":454.8,"end":469.641,"text":"這三個東西他們想做但是可能需要公部門的協助謝謝委員的建議我們很樂意跟速發部甚至內政部大家一起來內政部所屬的刑事警察局還有我們服務部調查局"},{"start":470.242,"end":471.522,"text":"有實際國人在使用的虛擬資產平臺然後發生過詐騙的"},{"start":499.482,"end":501.883,"text":"所以部長拜託我希望這個狀況是不是可以在一個月左右給我一個初步的你們"},{"start":526.556,"end":527.478,"text":"請你一個月內給我一個初步的規劃跟回報謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149559","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149559","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe4c4ae2d14c8a2abf3ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a60f1c420776665bfc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"12:06:02 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50萬。再看下一年、2023年，終於今年有提供到的是一些相關的KPI，但是一樣只走了20天。這些點閱率來講，我都幫你們換算好了，如果換算出來的話，你會發現其實112年1月19到2月7號的點閱數只有567，112年6月7日到6月21日點閱數只有423，等於是你的廣告投放預算非常的差，為什麼會有這樣子的情況？難道小錢就不是錢嗎？難道你們投放廣告的時候不需要考慮它的CP值嗎？這樣子的50萬廣告，任何一家的大媒體都比它還要便宜、宣傳效果都還要更好的，為什麼過去我們會每年向這家公司做相關的媒體採購？"],["王總經理耀庭：向委員報告，台電為什麼要下廣告，主要是因為我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：你可以下廣告，但是你不覺得這樣子的一個CP值太低了嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們事實上在各項的媒體都有做了，包括廣播、電視、報紙……"],["徐委員巧芯：各項的媒體，其它家有像這樣子這麼貴、CP值這麼低嗎？我直接問你，你覺得這樣每年的成效對台電的宣傳效用幫助是高還是低？"],["王總經理耀庭：因為我們要做到每一個面向，不同的……"],["徐委員巧芯：你沒有回答到我的問題，我只問你這樣子的一個專案每年花50萬，到底它對台電宣傳的幫助是大還是小嘛？"],["王總經理耀庭：因為每一個面向的群眾我們都要照顧到。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你覺得很棒，今年還要繼續執行，明年還要繼續執行？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們會檢討那個執行的成效，然後再來……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，我今天就把成效都拿出來給你們看了嘛，從2018到2023，我就問如果你覺得下這樣的廣告對台電的宣傳推廣很有幫助，那你今年要繼續下啊！如果你認為推廣沒有幫助、CP值太低的話，那你今年不要下啊！你就只要回答我這個問題就好，你們認為過去從107年到112年，針對這家公司去下廣告的成果你覺得合理不合理？你覺得錢有沒有花在刀口上？你覺得宣傳的效果是好還是不好？"],["王總經理耀庭：好，我想這樣子啦，就是因為我們之前是要考慮的面向不一樣，因為參數會有很多種，如果委員認為在未來……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，我想知道你的看法，我想知道的是政府部門對於下這樣子廣告的看法，你覺得宣傳的效果是好還是不好？你不用管我覺得好或不好，我只想聽你的答案。"],["王總經理耀庭：對，因為我們剛剛講不是只有點閱率的參數……"],["徐委員巧芯：它還有什麼？還有跟媒體人的關係嗎？這一點要考慮進來嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：不是，對於不同群面向的群眾，我們都希望能夠接觸到。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，如果你覺得很棒，請你今年繼續下；但如果你自己都覺得有點心虛了，請你未來在媒體採購上面要注重媒體過去CP值的表現，到底對於台電的宣傳推廣有沒有幫助，否則我們會覺得你今天要漲我們的電價，但是你過去花錢的時候是花得不眨眼，隨便亂花，CP值很差也花，這樣子你今天要漲大家電價的時候，人民就沒有辦法接受，請回去好好檢討。謝謝。"],["王總經理耀庭：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員。","接下來我們請賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員不在場。","請王世堅委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra 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行的成效所以我今天就把成效都拿出來給你看了從2018到2023我就問如果你覺得下這樣的廣告對台電的宣傳推廣很有幫助那你今年要繼續下"},{"start":293.155,"end":311.368,"text":"如果你認為推廣沒有幫助CP值太低的話那你今年不下你就只要回答我這個問題就好你們認為過去從107年到112年針對這家公司去下廣告的成果你覺得合理不合理你覺得錢有沒有花在包口上你覺得宣傳的效果是好還是不好"},{"start":312.469,"end":330.909,"text":"我想知道你的看法。我想知道的是政府部門對於下降幅廣告的看法。你覺得宣傳的效果是好還是不好?你不用管我覺得好不好,我只想聽你的答案。"},{"start":332.671,"end":338.036,"text":"還有什麼?還有跟媒體人的關係嗎?這點要考慮進來嗎?好,那如果你覺得很棒請你今年繼續下但如果你自己都覺得有點心虛了請你未來在媒體採購上面要注重媒體過去的CP值的表現到底對於台電的宣傳推廣有沒有幫助粉粉有沒有會覺得你今天要漲我們的電價"},{"start":358.834,"end":359.014,"text":"徐巧芯"}]}},{"id":"149558","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149558","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbedb68dee72883e67252afbb2d65d0dae1f8ba9b0039caa7a60f1c420776665bfc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"12:03:20 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請介紹國防部來 哪一位 我們請副部長嗎副部長副部長好 來 副部長黃議員好副部長好 副部長那個本席在上次總質詢時候有特別提到關於台東關山戰備道的事情那副部長大概知道這個規劃嗎知道"},{"start":26.104,"end":41.625,"text":"副部長你們有編列相關的預算要去討論未來怎麼執行嗎目前都在評估因為這個還是要跟交通部來配合所以是評估階段是他還沒有編列預算沒有部長你們預算都還沒有編列怎麼評估"},{"start":42.708,"end":61.752,"text":"因為這個是在交通部在初始規劃的時候有邀請我們國防部來商討就未來道路規劃尤其是戰備道關山段過去我們空軍有提出這樣的規劃但是基於這個主管權責機關是交通部所以我們是受邀的單位去參與評估的工作"},{"start":61.932,"end":81.694,"text":"所以據本席上次在院會質詢的時候部長是說還在規劃中嘛對我想說規劃中應該是你們也做好相關的準備了包括說你們跟農民跟當地鄉鎮公所的溝通跟討論應該都做了嘛可是聽起來好像你們連預算都還沒有編列不是嗎"},{"start":82.913,"end":110.818,"text":"是的,我跟委員報告有關於這個所有的戰備道的規劃事實上來講在全國的戰備道在初始規劃階段的時候都是由交通部主導的那預算的編列有他們統出來辦理那至於說跟地方上去協調要等環評或是所有評估告一個段落以後我們相關的部會會跨部會合作來去跟這個地方來所以這個案子還不確定會做,是這個意思"},{"start":111.938,"end":136.806,"text":"目前都在評估當中那跟部長請教一下就是說專輩跑到施作之後有沒有限限的問題報委員當然有因為這個牽涉到周邊的所有環境對我們戰機的起降的影響好的那我跟部長報告一下在我們未來要施作的專輩跑到旁邊有一個關山鎮農位的穀倉它的高度是27公尺那依照我們限限的標準它一定要拆除對不對"},{"start":137.642,"end":140.383,"text":"所以你們有查到有一個故鄉在旁邊嗎?有,當然有所以你們跟農委討論過了嗎?"},{"start":164.369,"end":185.829,"text":"到目前為止還沒討論還沒討論之前所以還沒討論只是未來要準備規劃這件事情可是部長你有發現你可能沒有跟你們有跟鄉鎮公所討論過這件事嗎現在觀山鎮農會包括觀山鎮的這些農民人心惶惶他們擔心說未來這要怎麼辦第二件事情我們時間不多我們大概簡單講到就是說"},{"start":187.574,"end":205.094,"text":"接下來正面跑到未來如果真的興建之後他周邊兩邊我們看圖表這邊周邊兩邊都是糧田那農民的在耕作的時候他必須要施肥撒藥那現在都是用無人機的方式來操作那這個部分會不會受到限制"},{"start":206.493,"end":207.314,"text":"所以部長你們到底有沒有跟"},{"start":233.996,"end":237.627,"text":"關山政農會跟關山政工所來協商我們空軍有跟他做什麼時候來請空軍參謀長"},{"start":239.963,"end":242.205,"text":"市會或可以把你們相關的資料再可以交給本席"},{"start":270.523,"end":289.928,"text":"民以食為天,稻米是我們吃飯最重要的,稻米也是我們的戰備物資。我們還是在重新強調一件事情,我們要吃飽飯才能,假設未來真的不幸要打仗,我們要吃飽飯才能夠上戰場,而不是挨餓上戰場。"},{"start":292.549,"end":292.589,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"149557","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149557","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbecb4878d172f5e4263ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a667be5a84947bdd715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:01:21 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是 那委員具體提到了這個部分 那水利署都有這個在裡面 那我們會來增加這個協助的力道謝謝 謝謝 那也麻煩部長能夠緊盯 儘速的把它完成 因為這是一個基本的權益 我們還是希望能夠儘速的完成它那第二部分就跟電的部分有關 那是在我們嘉義縣中埔的河目地區的高壓電塔的這些地下化"},{"start":142.392,"end":156.894,"text":"我們中埔鄉現在是屬於這個河目地區是屬於都市計劃區那附近有未來中埔公館的工業區還在開發那人口未來會很聚集在地的民眾我們都很希望說這些老舊的高壓電腦完全地下化"},{"start":157.295,"end":157.495,"text":"國際貿易夥伴委員會議"},{"start":178.332,"end":206.135,"text":"我昨天詢答地方的縣議員他們是答到說可能會到15億所以到目前為止還是停留在我們在反映地方的聲音的階段我們是希望有更新的進度在這個地方那部長其實最大的問題當然就是配合款那你也知道說非六都的這些縣市他的這個預算有限那他的經費有限不知道經濟部是否可以同意先採取用專案辦理的方式來協助解決這個問題"},{"start":207.862,"end":230.135,"text":"向委員報告那這個案子陳明文前委員在去年的11月有召開協調會在那個會上有做成決議就是在12月底台電要把相關的這個規劃報告要送出來那這個報告我們也在12月29號送給縣政府加一縣政府了那加一縣政府收到之後那他們會做研議研議說這個方案"},{"start":231.696,"end":232.096,"text":"﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚"},{"start":250.069,"end":250.089,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"149556","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149556","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe33326baa5840e18aaaa95e40c3cff622f8ba9b0039caa7a6b927b96357d7ed705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:54:13 - 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做這個質詢坐下來火氣就減了一半加上部長我們又是舊式另外一半也不見了所以我們今天就好好來討論一個問題"},{"start":23.973,"end":48.071,"text":"那你在法務部也7年了大概任期最長的部委首長你可能是最久的就是關於棄保潛逃的這件事情那麼尤其這些重大的犯罪重大不管是經濟犯罪或其他犯罪這是社會最無法接受的事情我就講朱國榮這件案子"},{"start":49.652,"end":57.502,"text":"你看去年他判刑十幾年他那麼多條罪那麼社會眾目睽睽之下"},{"start":58.905,"end":83.445,"text":"那他竟然繳交了五億元的重寶之後那氣泡潛逃他還不是做那個鐵殼 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贖罪券買了以後我們就讓他可以自由進出如入無人之境"},{"start":114.579,"end":135.175,"text":"那我八個字形容我們在這一個部分法務部在如何防逃機制的建立這個部分我八個字形容就是束手無策一籌莫展"},{"start":137.029,"end":165.834,"text":"數所無策一籌募債那稍微可以用的你們又顧忌說啊有聲音啊人權團體在講電子繳還就好你們又說這個人權的問題奇怪啦我們政府這麼多年來都重視加害者的人權啊那被害者還有我們無辜的民眾們是如何的看法他捲款上百億跑掉"},{"start":167.958,"end":195.591,"text":"這個損失的除了直接受害者以外還有間接的我們2300萬國民所以類似這種重大的經濟罪犯潛逃出國的話這不但扼傷了司法威信這更是讓我們全民對司法正義的期待徹底的幻滅徹底的幻滅"},{"start":196.997,"end":214.903,"text":"如果我們能夠建立好這個機制那至少給全民看到說司法是有正義的法律要對強者有效社會才有公平正義法律要能夠制裁懲戒這些惡劣者"},{"start":222.538,"end":249.9,"text":"社會才有公平正義不是這樣嗎?法律不是用來對付生抖小民對付那個手無縛肌之力的弱小者不是這樣欸但是我們在層層的所謂人權吶還有大家的怠惰之下啊跑了就跑了不然要怎樣啊竟然過去竟然有說對啦跑了啦吼但是啊這個吼"},{"start":251.431,"end":275.865,"text":"人總是會死的嘛他早晚也會老死啦天啊司法的正義要靠這些犯罪者讓天處罰說吃到老老死去那不是廢話嗎那何謂司法正義所以我認為這個部分我希望那個部長第一點"},{"start":279.622,"end":295.268,"text":"你看過很多這些防逃機制很可能我們各黨各派都有相對的提案我希望看到部長以你主導之下願版的防逃機制法案是什麼比方說我們對這個所謂有人權爭議的這個電子腳環那我們的態度是什麼"},{"start":304.85,"end":331.722,"text":"至少加了這個他沒辦法去上豪華遊艇吧不是嗎那這個部分我希望看到說院版的法案是什麼對策是什麼第二點對這麼多還可能在審理中或者已經判決的極可能有潛逃出國疑慮者"},{"start":333.052,"end":351.282,"text":"那是不是你們要想方設法趕快有一個積極的做法對應因為法務部以你們的權責你們可以指揮全國的檢調全國的警察甚至可以要求海巡來配合來幫忙"},{"start":352.623,"end":376.366,"text":"天吶我看那天你們可能這種通令根本不夠也疏忽掉我看朱國榮搭著豪華潛艇出國的時候海星看到他也不知道搞不好還跟他打招呼勒因為他不是中共的黑船嗎不是嗎所以這是這個事情已經到了荒唐的地步啦荒唐的地步所以我再一次的強調"},{"start":378.166,"end":379.046,"text":"法務部還有一個聲音喔還有一個聲音說"},{"start":393.52,"end":416.238,"text":"這個反正他繳了嘛 繳了無益了齁 這個已經把他懲罰了本來啊 我們民間一直有一個呼聲說 欸 希望來推動有一個棄保潛逃罪加重他的刑責 結果會反對的竟然我聽到的是法務部部分的聲音說 一罪不兩罰還都已經把他沒收保金了 還罰什麼罰呢那就我講的嘛"},{"start":419.676,"end":439.986,"text":"那這些保金不管多重金額多大那就是買贖罪券的觀念喔天啊那這個司法正義在哪裡所以部長我希望這一點你能夠積極的有作為有回應那我也拜託主席不好意思是不是幾十秒給部長回應一下好嗎"},{"start":442.51,"end":463.704,"text":"謝謝委員的指教委員關心的這個議題我們其實很早不管在法制面或是在執行面都有採取一些相關的措施法制面棄保潛逃罪我們在108年就提出了一個草案出來了108年就已經送到行政院去審查那執行面在"},{"start":464.505,"end":487.811,"text":"法律還沒有有效的遏止之前我們也是有電子監控這樣的措施那朱國隆的個案因為是在法院審理中嘛這個當然我們可以建議法院應該要多採取如果交保的話多採取電子監控因為他原來是只有報導而已啦報導是不夠的能夠再施以電子監控那是更好"},{"start":488.131,"end":488.891,"text":"我希望重建我們的司法威信謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149555","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149555","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe169598fa755878f152afbb2d65d0dae1f8ba9b0039caa7a6a780272794d7ccdd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:56:30 - 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12:01:14","影片長度":"00:10:53","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":653,"end_time":"2024-03-07T12:01:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:50:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":913,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時50分）謝謝主席，有請部長和台電董事長。"],["主席：請以上說明。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我今天看了台電2023年決算，總支出是逼近1兆元，9,999.18億元，自發的燃料支出是4,688億元，向民營電廠購電支出1,882億元，中間燃料是1,415億元，所以發電燃料支出大概就高達6,103億元，而2021年烏俄戰爭前的燃料支出是2,924億元。請教部長，因為烏俄戰爭造成燃料成本提高，因為現在國際燃料大概有下滑，你們覺得燃料成本這麼高的狀況大概還要持續多久才能把燃料成本壓到一個比較合理的水位？"],["王部長美花：現在有慢慢下來，但是因為俄烏戰爭還在持續，還有以哈戰爭，所以國際智庫或專業機構評估下來的速度不會很快，另外一點，只要有一點變動因素，可能又會影響燃料成本，目前我們看到國際重要機構的評估是這個樣子。"],["蔡委員易餘：我再回到剛剛提到1兆元這樣的支出結構，大概6,100億元是燃料支出，綠電是905億元，大概是9%；汽電大概就是指燃氣的？"],["王部長美花：汽電共生。"],["蔡委員易餘：汽電共生是255億元，其他是2,269億元，所謂的其他是指什麼？"],["王部長美花：包括折舊、利息、相關的電網等等都算在這裡面。"],["蔡委員易餘：現在台電因為燃料成本提高而虧損，這樣的虧損你們要支應利息錢嗎？"],["王部長美花：要啊！"],["蔡委員易餘：1年的利息大概多少？"],["王部長美花：都要借錢，所以現在台電1年負擔的利息已經超過300億元了。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這個利息錢也是算在剛剛講的其他這欄，300億元？"],["王部長美花：對，其他的支出。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以可以看得出來，至少在燃料和利息支出都是目前看到很大的洞。"],["王部長美花：對，都是壓力。"],["蔡委員易餘：今天討論漲電價的壓力點大概是來自於燃料成本，台電不能再虧損，我們也知道從戰爭發生到現在，全世界的物價上漲很高，尤其像歐洲國家整個物價飆漲，物價的飆漲來自於他們的電價上漲。"],["王部長美花：是，還有糧食的部分也是。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，包括玉米價格也上漲，我以前有質詢過。但是這樣的上漲，我們可以看出臺灣相對於其他國家，我們的物價是平緩的，我們CPI上漲大概都是百分之二點多，跟我們比較近的大概是韓國的百分之三點多，還是比我們高，高了百分之一點多。如果以歐盟國家來說，有的可能逼近10%，非常可怕的漲幅。"],["王部長美花：對，非常可怕。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以臺灣相對物價平緩，台電甚至中油負擔很大，國營事業扮演……"],["王部長美花：我們吸收很大的漲價。"],["蔡委員易餘：包括中油的瓦斯桶也都凍漲，都把物價壓住，當然現在壓力鍋來了，現在虧損這麼多，這麼大的一個洞，除了今天討論的未來可能要漲電價，臺灣的電價可以比較趨於合理，不要讓台電一直虧錢。但是我覺得還有幾個觀念，部長也應該要督促台電，甚至台電公司內部也應該去檢討。第一，台電負擔的義務，事實上也不只剛剛說的平緩物價，就我之前所講的，台電買了很多綠電，但是我們賣給民間的時候，為了要降低排碳係數，所以台電這些電買起來是沒有價值的，是把它混在一起變成廢電賣出去，這對台電來說，為了降低排碳係數這一個環節，台電承擔了很大的社會義務。雖然對大廠有壓力，但是很多中小型企業沒有碳排的壓力，為什麼這一塊要由台電來吸收？這是第一個我覺得不合理的。第二，我覺得從這個事件上來說，台電應該要去面對自己有這麼多民股，為什麼台電是國營事業卻有民股？"],["王部長美花：早期的時候，民國六十幾年當時……"],["蔡委員易餘：我剛了解了一下，像中油就沒有民股啊！台電有！這件事情會影響到什麼？像去年政府稅收有超徵三千多億元，這三千多億元來自於臺灣企業賺錢，包括很多科技產業賺錢，他們賺錢也來自臺灣因為電價比較低，所以成本比國外低一點。他們有賺錢當然就多繳了稅，臺灣有這樣的稅收，事實上我主張，像去年的超徵稅收目前還沒決定怎麼用，就應該把這些錢也適度的拿來彌補台電和中油的虧損，如果這三千多億元能補進來，那可是大補丸，可以有很大的補助。"],["王部長美花：三千多億元是包括中央和地方，中央其實才二千多億元。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒關係，當然也不可能到全部，至少可以挪個500億元，看中油要多少，事實上這就是一個很大的幫忙，可是又卡在台電並不是100%的國營，就只有幾%的民股，變成這個錢進去以後又會產生問題，中油是沒有這個問題，但是台電有。"],["王部長美花：所以我們會建議用補貼的，不要用增資，增資就會稀釋原來的股權。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我覺得我們作價把它們買回來。"],["王部長美花：那是另外一個議題，台電的部分……"],["蔡委員易餘：因為台電是國營事業，它應該是要跟政府的腳步一致，現在不管是補貼或增資，事實上就是政府有這些錢來彌補台電的虧損，這很合理，大家也都接受，但是這個點卻因為我剛講的幾個理由而無法執行，我覺得很可惜。我們也知道台電負擔這麼大的責任，為了平緩物價讓大家生活好過，我覺得在一些點應該要適度的不要讓台電全部吸收，就像我剛講的排碳係數這個點，台電不一定要負擔排碳係數嘛！"],["王部長美花：排碳係數是國家的責任，另外，我們現在躉購進來的綠電也慢慢跟台電分手了，直接賣到民間。"],["蔡委員易餘：現在很厲害，它們都直接賣給民間企業，而且賣給民間企業都比台電的躉售電價4塊多還高。"],["王部長美花：還要高一點。"],["蔡委員易餘：事實上這是有誘因的，既然看到了這個誘因，我覺得對台電而言，就是一個壓力點的釋放、解脫，以後這些電就讓民營去接洽，我們可以減少台電買綠電，因為就不用去控制我的排碳係數嘛！你說國家好像有點責任……"],["王部長美花：台電還是要控制，我們還是被環境部管制，但是能夠賣給民間的還是儘量去賣。"],["蔡委員易餘：不用負擔那麼大的義務啊！現在的綠電觀念跟以前不一樣了，以前的綠電好像台電買10元，壓力很大，現在沒有耶！現在台電買綠電反而不划算，讓綠電公司自己去找民營事業，它們還可以賣更高的價錢，台電就只是卡在排碳係數，我覺得適度的排碳係數，也不是說排碳係數就會影響到企業的經營，未必啦！只有大型、做外銷、國際企業才有這樣的壓力。所以我們可以適度的去這樣思考，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得這很辛苦，但還是像剛剛申翰委員說的，如果漲了電價，對社會物價的影響評估要好好思考，要做比較翔實的報告，謝謝。"],["王部長美花：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。部長你看，藍綠白都不贊成。","接下來請陳委員冠廷質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra 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大補完"},{"start":436.63,"end":461.028,"text":"不過3000多億是包括中央跟地方的所以如果中央其實才2000當然也不可能到全部嘛至少可是如果你可以挪挪個五百億啊中油化多少啊事實上這個就是一個很大的幫忙可是勒又卡在說台電又不是百分之百國營就只有那幾%的民營會變得說你這個錢進去的時候哇又會產生問題"},{"start":466.054,"end":476.945,"text":"所以我們會建議用補貼的不要用增資的不要用增資的部分就會稀釋那個原來的股權我覺得部長我們考慮啦就是做價錢把他們買回來啦"},{"start":479.248,"end":507.119,"text":"那個是另外一個議題是臺電的部分 我覺得很多因為臺電國營事業嘛他應該是要跟政府的卡簿可以一體嘛就政府我們現在不管是補貼還是增資事實上就是政府有這些稅捐這些錢就可以來彌補臺電的虧損很合理大家也都接受但是這一個點卻因為我剛講的這幾個理由事實上無法被執行我覺得很可惜"},{"start":508.307,"end":535.768,"text":"我們也知道台電負擔這麼大的國家的為了平緩負價然後讓大家生活這樣好過有負擔這麼大的責任事實上在於一些點的時候我是覺得適度的適度的要把台電的責任不用全部都去收啦像我剛才說的廢電的排氮係數這一個點這台電不用啦不一定一定要台電要負擔排氮係數吧"},{"start":538.035,"end":549.122,"text":"排碳係數是國家的責任吶吼那另外就是說確實現在也很多我們准購進來的綠電也慢慢他跟台電分手了直接賣給民間現在他們都直接賣給那個民間企業了而且賣給民間企業的都比台電的准收電價4點多塊"},{"start":556.767,"end":575.775,"text":"還要高耶!還要高阿!所以事實上這個是有誘因的阿!那既然看到了這個誘因我覺得對台電而言就是一個他們壓力點的釋放、的解脫!一天一天讓他們民營去接車!我們就不用去我們可以減少台電買綠電因為我就不用去控制我的排碳係數嘛!"},{"start":579.277,"end":589.126,"text":"台電還是要控制啦我們還是被環境部管制還是要但是就是說能夠賣給民間的我們賣給民間還是會盡量去賣現在的綠電觀念跟以前不一樣了以前的綠電好像台電有買10顆然後買的綠電好像是壓力很大現在沒有餒現在台電買綠電電到不會好餒"},{"start":605.475,"end":624.689,"text":"買綠電給綠電公司一直去找民營事業他們還可以賣更高的價錢台電就只是卡在排炭係數那這個排炭係數我覺得適度的排炭係數也沒有說每一家企業他都會因為排炭係數他會去影響企業經營未必啦只有大型在做外銷國際企業他們才會有這樣的壓力"},{"start":628.172,"end":650.288,"text":"所以適度的我們可以這樣去思考好不好是是好那我是覺得說這很辛苦啦但是我還是像剛剛深漢委員說的如果漲了電價整體對社會一些物價的一些影響評估我覺得這個要好好的思考然後要做一個比較詳細的一個報告好不好是是好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149553","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149553","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe0a99db5a65541718a2c0e3c4ee948455f8ba9b0039caa7a662af07d6823bbab05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:50:23 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院長好 請院長謝謝院長"},{"start":24.296,"end":50.071,"text":"吳委員早這個院長早辛苦你了我代表民眾黨在教文委員會那這個先說明一下民眾黨是一個講究務實理性科學沒有意識形態的政黨那院長呢這個也被公認是最沒有"},{"start":51.243,"end":78.673,"text":"政治包袱的故宮院長所以我想我們應該是可以很能對話的那從剛才這個看到這個很多委員可能對這個故宮對院長這裡提出的一些責難苛求我覺得這是非戰之罪其實這裡就是問題的核心"},{"start":80.552,"end":102.079,"text":"所以我是要來幫你的因為為什麼我們有一些核心問題一直不願意面對沒有談好這個核心問題那就會有很多的其他問題所以就是我今天的主題是故宮產品是屬於我們國家的資產嗎?"},{"start":105.645,"end":113.636,"text":"請問院長當然是我們國家的資產而且還是世界全人類的資產世界是歸世界我講的是台灣的嗎?"},{"start":115.523,"end":139.468,"text":"是台灣的因為我們的財產的話每年都要跟財政部做財產的報告所以故宮這70萬件都是台灣的是很肯定很肯定的這一點因為這一點要肯定以後你後面的整個的經營宗旨目的經營的策略我剛剛看了整份的報告"},{"start":142.165,"end":151.794,"text":"其實我是有一點有一點替你們叫屈為什麼呢因為這整份來講其實就是一個博物館的報告"},{"start":153.376,"end":177.04,"text":"博物館的報告沒有到故宮國家的這種定位裡面談的不外乎就是網路官網要怎麼展覽倉庫要怎麼管理文物怎麼保管運用資源然後增加他的安全性這就是一個博物館這不是一個國家文化的一個經營者"},{"start":182.676,"end":185.721,"text":"這是叫低層次的技術層面的問題那這個技術層面是因為上面的定位"},{"start":193.971,"end":198.693,"text":"問題是,中華文化是我們的嗎?中華文化是我們的,那我等一下你再回答可以有兩種答案,一種是一種不是"},{"start":223.591,"end":246.398,"text":"我先講如果不是的話因為這個跟我們目前文化部的定位好像有一點不太同目前我們台灣主體文化好像不太論述我們是在去中華所以如果中華文化不是我們的那故宮這些寶藏是從哪裡來的這就是外國的那是怎麼來的 是搶來的"},{"start":250.12,"end":277.151,"text":"那如果是這樣子的,你如果是從這種角度來看那我們看到的故宮就很像阿里巴巴的那個洞穴一樣的就是很多的寶藏對不對要進去前還要先喊一個芝麻開門然後那個院長就是阿里巴巴了那裡面珍藏的西式珍寶那這些東西對我們來講是什麼意義是利還是弊"},{"start":279.505,"end":281.79,"text":"是利還是弊喔你會想喔"},{"start":283.015,"end":310.763,"text":"以前啊 這個大陸啊 很多大陸觀光客來台灣看了以後 看到我們故宮以後 甚感欣慰為什麼 他們說還好你們把他搬到台灣來 不然的話 我們文化大革命的時候大概都把他砸壞了 所以他是感謝的 為什麼他會感謝 因為他那時候認為兩岸一家親嘛 對不對 所以放在你們這裡 他們不會在乎"},{"start":313.527,"end":335.266,"text":"但是我們怎麼看如果兩岸不是一家親的話那你現在14億的大陸人怎麼看故宮在台灣就是他們祖宗的寶物被你搶到台灣來了那這一個"},{"start":336.331,"end":337.012,"text":"這個就是從不是的角度"},{"start":352.216,"end":366.435,"text":"那我想故宮當然現在應該不是請問院長是是還是不是是中華文化是我們我們的嗎中華文化的話是台灣文化中的一個非常重要的一個"},{"start":367.376,"end":368.096,"text":"中華文化的比重在多少?"},{"start":390.073,"end":409.01,"text":"我不是科學家我沒有辦法計算因為文化的內涵的話沒有辦法用比重在我的管理的脈絡裡面的話那中華文化華夏文化的產品的話當然是在故宮裡面占最重要的地位"},{"start":413.514,"end":433.331,"text":"臺灣當然是一個綜合的文化吧不過中華文化應該佔了非常高的比重只是我們現在一直在兩岸對立當中也知道有這些所以在文化論述當中要把它去中化那凸顯臺灣的主體性"},{"start":436.369,"end":462.995,"text":"這兩個需要對立嗎?這兩個是融合台灣包括連大陸都認為你繼承了中華文化的正統那我們怎麼看?這裡就是故宮的定位模糊古不古、金不金、中不中、台不台這就是你為什麼會有那麼多困境的原因做什麼都不對白什麼都是人家都有意見"},{"start":464.783,"end":488.84,"text":"再來的話昨天的新聞教育部這裡有台美之間的優華語計畫那為什麼人家要來台灣學他來學語也來學文化為什麼不去北京學那個自爭槍援的他學那種台灣槍國語我們的國語比較好聽嗎不是是嗎所以呢大家把台灣視為華人的文化中正民主的燈塔"},{"start":489.58,"end":503.708,"text":"那這個的概念故宮是一個很重要的核心最後因為我的時間有限我在談的包括我要請問館長你是博物館長還是一個文化的傳承者你自己覺得呢"},{"start":505.489,"end":520.209,"text":"我不是從政界出生,我也不是從協界出生我是一個行政出身的行政管理者所以對我來講的話我是博物館館長但我也期待成為一個文化的傳承者"},{"start":520.635,"end":530.766,"text":"所以目前你還是把定位自己是一個博物館館長的專業人士當作一個專業人士但是這樣子需要到一個部長級的職務來當博物館館長故宮的地位為什麼到這麼的重要"},{"start":537.333,"end":540.215,"text":"最後一個其實整份的這個報告就是技術面的業務報告你們沒有一個"},{"start":560.767,"end":575.615,"text":"文化的高度、文化的戰略報告我要請院長可不可以提出文化交流作為兩岸和平對話的契機故宮可以扮演什麼交流,沒有什麼規劃"},{"start":576.696,"end":603.095,"text":"第二個問題是故宮能不能就文化戰略因為你這本都沒有文化戰略只有服務執行項目提出報告可不可以在一個月之內提出提出來這份報告到我們委員會來報告委員我們嘗試努力嘗試看看但是是不是不要一個月我們三個月可不可以主席要三個月嗎因為"},{"start":604.656,"end":628.974,"text":"這是由我們委員來決定那折衷一下好不好三個月太久了啦一份這個報告你們這個一個禮拜就可以弄出來了專業人士60年的觀音一個禮拜弄不出來啦不是啦這個不是60年觀音這個就是腦筋想一想就知道其實只要說實話就知道的事情因為我們不一定面對所以"},{"start":630.095,"end":630.115,"text":"謝謝院長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149552","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149552","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe29858fd39bf9ddaddc62c46c87ca327ff8ba9b0039caa7a695517a371d75927e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:38:55 - 11:58:59","影片長度":"00:20:04","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健康保險署、食品藥物管理署就「健保藥價調整，藥廠停產慢性病用藥之因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":1204,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:58:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:38:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":917,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時39分）主席、各位，大家午安。是不是還是請薛部長？"],["主席：部長請。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，其實我還有蘇丹紅事件要跟你就教，但是因為藥價的問題，我跟新北市公會也稍微溝通了一下，所以有幾個簡單的問題先再一次地反映。","我必須要說，如果幾種藥品缺貨去換藥，我覺得在市場或者對用藥人來講，這個影響是無法避免的，如果是幾種而已。可是如果在藥局看到的現象是缺藥，民眾退單的比例高達30%以上，它可能就不是簡單的幾個問題，所以變成換藥潮的話，則我們的確要正視這個問題。但你們一直說是缺貨而不是缺藥，或者是你們在談的，三同、等同的狀況就可以治療，可是第一線的藥局的確發現，在換藥時，比如說以血壓藥為例，他們發現患者的反映是，用以前的藥大概血壓可以控制、維持在110，可是換了藥以後，再怎麼控制都總是在180，變成他只能夠回到大醫院去領原廠藥或是原來的藥，所以他們的確是有觀察到這個現象。","另外一種就是管制性的藥品，因為管制性藥品用藥人他本身就是很敏感的，當換藥的時候，他的確就更敏感了，有可能會特別的排斥。的確，過去我們也有一些藥廠做了很多不應該做的事，比如說很多年以前我揭發過的，就是沒有做BE測試，幾千份的藥品BE測試連做都沒做，你說學名藥藥效都是一樣的，可是後來發現他們有的藥甚至連藥證都沒有，而且還有幾千張的藥證是BE等同測試都沒做的，這些都是歷歷在目的，都是曾經發生過的，而且都是事實。","部長，你說三同，三同這個東西要宣傳。另外，我們採分級醫療，醫藥分業要專業化，然後我們鼓勵家醫也鼓勵社區藥局，可是藥局面臨了很大的困難，所以我們也是要想到，比如說分配不均，有藥要先分配給大醫院，他們一定就沒有了；再來，他們都是跟盤商要的，可是盤商因為種種因素不供藥了，或是有所謂的最少出貨量，像在藥廠裡面某些藥物是以1,000粒為一瓶的基本包裝，但藥局沒用到那麼多，所以這些都是可以解決的。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員淑芬：而且人家的反映你們要聽也要解決啊！然後學名藥及三同的替代你們也是要宣導啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員淑芬：的確也存在的藥商只注重經濟效益高的產品，這個是事實，部長，是吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。委員剛才提到的幾個我們都非常的贊同，比如說三同的學名藥需要去做promote，讓民眾比較能夠接……"],["林委員淑芬：花很多錢在宣導，但這種東西都沒看到你們的宣導。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們會持續而且會加強去做，因為這會關係到國內的一些命脈；第二個部分，剛剛委員有提到，就是藥物調度的問題，比方說社區藥局的藥物調度，還有盤商等等，關於這個部分，因為新的制度我們才剛剛建立起來，包括對於盤商的一個監測，幸好國內大的盤商他們都願意來做配合，所以這個部分我們就可以來做監測，像社區藥局如果是缺貨的時候，我們是不是可以請盤商來做調度；如果中盤商沒有辦法調度的話，我們就找藥商……"],["林委員淑芬：中盤商不能調度的理由和原因很多，所以你們也是要去瞭解這個合不合理。"],["薛部長瑞元：對！對！對！因為這個部分的話……"],["林委員淑芬：他們最常講的一個理由是，現在進貨的藥價到未來賣的時候都是賠本的，我的意思是說，這是其中一個理由啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：對！我知道，但是那個是在藥價調漲的時間……"],["林委員淑芬：當然中盤商還有一個大理由，就是因為我們PIC/S GDP裡面還包含冷鏈的系統，所以他們冷鏈若有不合格，是不是也應該繼續輔導、趕快輔導？"],["薛部長瑞元：好，這部分我會處理。"],["林委員淑芬：好。我還是要談蘇丹紅事件，蘇丹紅事件很嚴重，因為你說你不能保證在架上的都是安全的、沒有漏網之魚。現在看一下第8頁，這個是海順公司的產品，然後你看它的下一頁就是「香麻辣粉」，現在大家上momo網站，這個產品現在還在架上，3月7號、現在都還在架上……"],["薛部長瑞元：這應該要下架……"],["林委員淑芬：初衣食伍、海順，你們知道嗎？衛生局也知道海順，署長，它為什麼還在架上？你們所謂的檢出辣椒粉含蘇丹紅專區裡面，也沒有這種產品！"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分我們會查它的批次，到底現在的狀況是什麼，海順公司算是一個進口的……"],["林委員淑芬：不要講批次的問題。部長，我就把第2頁、第3頁的故事說給你聽一下，關於批次，我們什麼時候100%逐批查驗？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是去年的12月。"],["林委員淑芬：12月之後還有沒有人繼續進含有蘇丹紅產品的辣椒粉？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該不會有，因為在邊境就會被阻斷掉。"],["林委員淑芬：我馬上拿給你看，部長，這是你們自己公告的，你看，邊境受理的時間是今年1月6號……"],["薛部長瑞元：查到就退運銷毀了啊！"],["林委員淑芬：我再問你，去年12月11號已經100%在查驗了，為什麼這些廠商仍然有恃無恐，繼續進口大量含蘇丹紅的辣椒粉？"],["薛部長瑞元：它進來被查到就會退了。"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在講查到被退，我上禮拜就跟你們說了，查到沒關係、不會死，也不會賠錢，你就叫它退關、退回去中國而已。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦！退了就已經是賠錢了。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有賠錢啦！我稍後再跟你說原因是什麼，這間是佳廣，這幾天講的同樣都是這一家公司，100%逐批查驗了，但它在1月6號仍然繼續進口，而且進口量有多高呢？據我所知，好像1月6號有進口1萬3,696公斤；後來它被退了，如你們所說被退了，1月30號被查出不合格，要求它退，但它1月30號之後卻還繼續進口，不是，是1月28號，沒關係。","在去年12月11號你們發布100%逐批查驗的時候，它仍然在進口，我這裡總共有三張，都是今年才進口的，這三張分別是1萬5,000公斤、1萬3,000公斤不等，加起來大概4、5萬公斤，仍然都被驗出含有蘇丹紅然後被退關，為什麼它被退了不要緊，你知道嗎？","我們來看龍海同記，因為它的出口商不是Kavin Shipping而是這間，你們沒本事查，我都查好了，其實你們都知道，它從中國出口到我們這裡的出口商是龍海同記，你不要以為這是中國廠商，這就是他們自己，因為臺灣李彥廷也有登記一家「龍海同記」，這就是他們自己，而剛才中國的那間、在中國登記的，1997年就成立了，1997年就有食品原料、食品加工等等；為什麼它在溯源追蹤系統中登記的是Kavin Shipping？因為裡面真正的出口商是龍海同記，你退關退回去也是退到他們自己的公司，退回去中國也是退回他們自己的公司。","所以我們看一下這個業者它有幾家公司，部長，我剛才提到初衣食伍是哪一家公司？是海順。我禮拜一就已經說它有4間了，現在又多了一個海順，事實上不只如此，你看他們還有多少？還有津棧、釜山、廣元、龍海、杰展、佳廣、初衣食伍素食食品有限公司，素食業淪陷了！還有鼎記海順國際，我剛才講的龍海同記，它在臺灣也有登記，整個看起來就有9間了，現在已經出包了，這9家你有沒有全部都查？食藥署署長，你有沒有全部都查？"],["薛部長瑞元：我想這個部分的話，對於個別的廠商如果有輸入這種違規的東西，我們就會禁止他們進口。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，我不是在說「如果」的問題啦！我跟你說，至少津棧、佳廣都已經爆發食安事件了，至少我禮拜一都已經跟你們說過他們的人頭公司很多，這個經營者他們至少有很多家公司的時候，起碼你要啟動真正的調查啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們會來做調查。"],["林委員淑芬：不是現在啦！部長、署長，怎麼是立委爆了你們才調查？"],["薛部長瑞元：不是！不是！因為它是個別登記的公司，所以我們還是必須要掌握……"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼立委google就有了？整個食藥署專業的人力有一千多人，你政策責付出去，地方政府也有人力，今天在這裡，我覺得行政部門是有道德風險的，你們食藥署的人有一種道德風險是什麼你知道嗎？你們有辦法查好查滿嗎？查好查滿後會不會像滾雪球一樣越滾越大？當你們為了避免越滾越大的時候，是不是就不能太認真？所以不做不錯、多做多錯。"],["薛部長瑞元：不會有這種問題發生。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在看到的就是這樣子啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦！委員這應該是誤會啦！"],["林委員淑芬：我google就可以知道它有9家公司，你知道它還有一家工廠登記嗎？好，來看這個鐵皮屋工廠，我不是講公司登記，而是工廠登記，你們有去查廠嗎？你們有去這個地方查過廠嗎？因為所有要摻蘇丹紅的除了將辣椒磨成粉末以外，那是要加工摻入的，是加工過程才摻入的，它現在有一種是邊境就摻入，還有加工廠等等，我只簡單問你這間工廠登記證是哪一家工廠登記證？名字叫什麼？FDA知道嗎？你不知道！它有9間公司，你也不知道！部長你不知道。"],["薛部長瑞元：從委員的資料來判斷，你應該是用地址去查的……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啊！公司登記用「吳克敏」3字來查也可以啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：我沒辦法用這樣的方式去查啦！"],["林委員淑芬：我不用去查，我只要google就有了，google臺灣公司網就有了，google「佳廣」，它就會告訴你佳廣還有其他的分公司，有沒有？你google「佳廣」兩個字就可以找到全部，連它的工廠登記都有，我這個就是從工廠登記來的。"],["薛部長瑞元：不過，行政機關在做事情的時候，還是要一個、一個公司去做處理。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在是說立委google就有了，但行政機關你們沒辦法做，那就是你們的道德風險嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：不是這樣子啦！"],["林委員淑芬：你們怕查太多會像滾雪球啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：會爆的就一定會爆，尤其是這種……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在再告訴你，不是會爆了就會爆了，而是都沒有爆啊！林淑芬今天沒有講這9家公司，你會去查這9家嗎？沒有！我今天講出初衣食伍素食食品公司，3月7號、現在在momo網站上都還有，現在大家google進去都還有，它還有特價，從3月1號到3月7號享最低價格八三折。","再來，我覺得你們這個東西很離譜以外，整個事件我覺得查到最後非常可惡的是，如果我們整個食品安全的管理是仰賴業者自律，然後當初我們建置一個食品溯源系統、追蹤追溯系統的時候，我們政府不斷地跟大家講，你要來登錄；你要自律；如果你被我查到了，我要重罰。今天查到了，你也說要重罰，但是我現在問你，業者查到要重罰，但是如果政府被人民查到、政府被立委查到，你們都沒有在管，要不要重罰？它現在上游的廠商登錄的名稱是虛偽的，下游的廠商隨便寫一寫、寫不齊全，然後你們根本都不查，所以讓那個溯源、追蹤追溯制度淪於假的形式，讓我們食安五環破功……"],["薛部長瑞元：不能這樣講……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，部長，不然你跟我說為什麼？我問你，它隨便說說它的供貨商是Kavin Shipping，你們新聞稿也登錄了，你們也承認了……"],["薛部長瑞元：這是事實，它申報的時候就是這個樣啊。"],["林委員淑芬：它申報是Kavin Shipping啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：是啊！"],["林委員淑芬：它都報假的，它在測試你政府的底線，它在測試你政府可不可以容許、會不會查嘛！然後下游的部分，高雄市政府說它提供不出完整的下游名單，它也沒有嘛！我現在再問你，星期一的時候食藥署署長說，他們都有登錄，他們是登錄第23類，署長，我現在再問你，我們47萬家的公司需要強制登錄的只有1萬家，這1萬家在25個品項裡面，它到底是基於哪一個品項所以必須要強登？因為這25項大多數都是鎖定在3,000萬以上的食品公司、食品工廠才必須要強登。"],["薛部長瑞元：輸入業者都一定要啦！"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你，它是哪一個品項？你跟我講，它是第幾個品項所以必須強登？"],["薛部長瑞元：第23類！"],["林委員淑芬：第23類嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：輸入業者。"],["林委員淑芬：所有、每個輸入業者都要嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員淑芬：這樣我跟你說，好，剛才我說的那9家你們都還沒有查……"],["主席：請衛福部要積極去查。林委員，時間……"],["林委員淑芬：抱歉，我把它講完，我儘快講。"],["主席：再1分鐘，好不好？"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要說的是，你們的科長告訴我們，這有登載不實，原因是它是第24類，不是第23類，到底是23還是24，你科長說的跟你署長說的不一樣。","再來，關於業者自律，嚴重的、被查到的要重罰，現在發現政府都沒有在管，人民發現你有嚴重的疏失、都沒有在管，這樣要不要重罰？事務官、公務員要懲處啊！部長，會不會懲處？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有……"],["林委員淑芬：他要不要繼續當署長是政治議題，我要問你的是，整個事件爆發後發現它虛偽登載，我們整個的食品雲系統、溯源系統都是亂寫的，政府沒有在管，業者也不怕，100%逐批查驗了，它還繼續進口4、5公斤含有蘇丹紅的辣椒粉，所以由此可知，瀆職得很嚴重！"],["薛部長瑞元：這個指控需要有一些證據的。"],["林委員淑芬：我沒有證據嗎？它登錄了Kavin Shipping作為上游公司，這不是證據嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：它是欺騙、是登錄不實……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在說的是你們沒有去查。"],["薛部長瑞元：查歸查，那是另外一回事。"],["林委員淑芬：你們有沒有定期檢視？"],["薛部長瑞元：若每一樣登錄上去我都要去查到最後的結果出來……"],["林委員淑芬：112年逐批抽驗到100%了，你可以不用查嗎？如果以它過去的紀錄，在邊境都有查到含有蘇丹紅，而且屢次的被發現，你不用去食品雲查嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：兩個不一樣的事情，我們對產品會去查，但是對公司要我們去查，我們沒有這個義務嘛！"],["林委員淑芬：你不用去食品雲查嗎？如果它是累犯，如果是屢屢發生，如果它是這樣子，我現在要說，這一群人是不是故意的、組織性的在做呢？你看……"],["薛部長瑞元：我們可以交由檢調來處理，如果是組織犯罪的話。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在跟你說，它在臺灣也有工廠登記，也有公司9間，然後在中國也有，中國輸出廠商寫「龍海同記」，如果被抓到禁止輸入，它這間就被打槍、就沒用了，但是它還是用Kavin Shipping，所以……"],["主席：林委員，這個案子……"],["林委員淑芬：你還敢說你禁止了21家中國廠商，但你禁止的是Kavin Shipping……"],["主席：這個案子剛才部長有回答送檢調，我們支持如果有組織犯罪就送檢調……"],["林委員淑芬：你禁止的不是李彥廷、吳克敏他們的龍海同記，叫Eastrong，而且你們還有一個……"],["主席：委員，還有很多委員等著質詢……"],["林委員淑芬：我也搞不懂，因為在你們的新聞稿專區裡面，關於這21家中國被禁的廠商名稱，在你們的新聞稿裡面沒有放上來，沒有放上這21家的名稱，而是隱藏在一個大家都看不到的地方，要苦心地一直去問、去查，才查得到這21家，所以我很懷疑你們為什麼都不公布在你們的新聞稿專區，新聞稿專區沒有放上去過，這是不是有貓膩我們就不得而知了。"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員的質詢。請衛福部要積極地查緝，剛剛委員提供這麼多的資料，請積極去查。","接下來我們處理臨時提案，現在臨時提案總共有6案，請一併宣讀。","一、","衛生福利部為因應日益嚴重之藥品短缺問題，於去（112）年成立跨部門「藥品供應通報處理中心」，由中盤藥商定期通報藥品庫存資料，並通報藥品缺藥狀況，針對缺貨藥品再由食藥署公告替代藥品。惟目前做法仍偏向個案危機處理模式，食藥署對於嚴重缺藥時的藥品分配或調度機制未制度化，針對健保藥價調整等重大政策可能影響藥品供應狀況，亦缺乏風險管理及資訊透明，顯然仍有改進空間。爰要求衛福部食藥署應就各項藥品缺藥風險，及對疾病治療影響程度，建立完整缺藥預防和藥品調度機制，並以數據化和透明化方式，防止缺藥引發民眾恐慌。","提案人：王育敏　　陳菁徽　　蘇清泉","二、","我國社區藥局缺藥問題日益嚴重，包括慢性病處方箋用藥、三高常用血壓藥、抗生素等常用藥品常有缺貨情形，難以保障慢性病患用藥權益。經查，社區藥局目前佔整體藥品市場比例約一成，市佔率偏低，導致藥品供應與社區藥局難以簽訂穩定藥品穩定供應契約，一旦發生缺藥狀況，或是健保藥價調整時，社區藥局藥品缺貨風險也較高。","為確保社區藥局藥品供應穩定，及保障民眾用藥權益，爰要求衛福部食藥署針對如何提高社區藥局因應缺藥之應變能力，研擬社區藥局與物流業合作方式，以及成立藥品供應合作社等因應作為，於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：王育敏　　陳菁徽　　蘇清泉","三、","有鑑於台灣當前的「藥品費用分配比率目標制（DET）」實施過程中，出現了一個明顯的不公平現象，第一大類藥品（新藥、專利期內藥品）費用成長幅度較高，但藥價削減的重點卻落在第三大類藥品上。這種不平衡的做法不僅對學名藥市場造成不利影響，也可能阻礙整體藥品市場的健康發展。藥品DET辦法已經實施10年問題一大堆，醫界反對，藥界反對，原開發廠反對，國產也反對，百姓也不滿意，這個制度要重新檢討或者是廢止，另提辦法。爰要求衛生福利部於一個月內研擬改善方案，並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出解決辦法。","提案人：蘇清泉","連署人：廖偉翔　　王育敏","四、","缺藥問題嚴重並持續2年，醫師、藥師不斷呼籲政府應重視並提出解決之道，以保障人民健康權益！藥品穩定供應攸關人民健康權益甚鉅，「沒藥醫」將會直接衝擊生命安全，為政者不可輕忽。「缺藥議題」已經是公共政策中的沉痾，而藥價改革是解決缺藥問題之重要手段，故解決缺藥問題，必須基於維持藥品供應鏈韌性的前提下，確保藥品供應無虞，不能只是頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，只針對部分缺藥通報的品項專案進口交差了事。再者，醫師反映很多病患對藥品的療效反應不同，要有足夠的用藥選擇才能讓醫師有足夠的武器幫助病患治療疾病，故要徹底解決缺藥困境，須同時以滿足醫師最佳處方選擇及照顧病患用藥權益為基礎；另為避免全球性藥品供應不穩定或兩岸關係影響，導致救命藥品無法順利進口、強化臨床需求必要性藥品在地生產能力，確保所有疾病患者有藥可用，以維護民眾生命權。爰要求衛福部在同時符合以下三項要件，各該品項之藥價不受藥價調整影響或排除在每年藥價調整之外：","(一)臨床上有需求─醫學會認證。","(二)鼓勵在地製造─領有食藥署核發「臺灣製造」藥品許可證。","(三)3張以下的稀缺藥證。","提案人：廖偉翔","連署人：陳菁徽　　邱鎮軍　　蘇清泉　　盧縣一　　王育敏","五、","案由：近年來醫事人員逐漸不堪壓榨，人力持續出走，開始影響醫療照護的品質。目前台灣的「經常性醫療保健支出占GDP百分比」只有6.1%，低於OECD國家平均的百分之九點六。其中健保費用占GDP的3.3%、藥品支出占GDP的1.1%，占比都明顯不足。長期以來，健保費率調漲相當困難。為維持現有的健保制度，健保署採取的手段往往都是要「省錢或節流」，所以有「健保總額支付制度」、「精進雲端醫療資訊」減少重覆用藥或檢查、藥價管控等。在「先節流、後開源」的要求下，管理者無止盡地擠壓醫療現場的合理作為，把省錢視為最高目標，反而忽視醫療人員的服務價值。另外在總額制度控管之下，醫事機構應得的給付長期被打九折甚至八折。長期管控與節流也讓醫療人力與資源只能勉強維持堪用的狀態，一旦遇到疫情甚至戰事，就會面臨醫療崩潰，醫療支出不應該視作成本，反而是對於國民健康的投資。","建請政府撥補財源以合理支應補充我國醫療品質：","(1)西醫、牙醫及中醫基層浮動點值保障一點0.95元。","(2)醫院浮動點值保障一點0.9元。","提案人：林俊憲　　黃秀芳","連署人：林月琴　　王正旭","六、","今(113)年食品藥物管理署查獲大量進口中國製辣椒粉，含致癌物「蘇丹色素三號」，目前中國製辣椒粉已進入市場，並大規模利用於加工食品，危害國人食安甚鉅，食藥署也無法保證市場完全沒有問題。","經查我國國中小學約一百六十五萬名學生食用營養午餐，若含蘇丹紅辣椒粉用於營養午餐，恐危害多數孩童健康，爰要求衛福部於市場內蘇丹紅辣椒粉為清查完畢前，應限制全國學校營養午餐食材添加辣椒粉。","提案人：王育敏　　蘇清泉　　涂權吉"],["主席：好，謝謝。請問第1案行政單位有沒有意見？"],["吳署長秀梅：主席，有關第1案的部分有文字的修正，修正的部分是在第2行還有第3行，這個部分我們是建議要刪掉，然後更換文字，即從「由中盤藥商……」到第3行的「……替代藥品」，這個要劃掉。我們希望可以改成「並已建立藥品短缺通報及評估處理程序」。","第2段的部分，有幾個簡單的字是希望可以劃掉的，就是第一句話後的「，……」那裡可以劃掉，就是「，及對疾病治療影響程度」這句話希望可以劃掉；然後，後面的「並以數據化和透明化方式……」我們要改成「並以透明化方式，防止缺藥引發民眾恐慌」。"],["主席：好，就按照修正後通過。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝。"],["主席：處理第2案。"],["吳署長秀梅：第2案也是有文字的修正，第2段倒數第2行的「與物流業合作方式」我們希望劃掉；還有下一句話「，以及成立藥品供應合作社等」這句話也都劃掉，所以就是修正為「研擬社區藥局取得藥品之相關因應作為」。謝謝。"],["主席：好，照修正文字通過。","處理第3案。"],["石署長崇良：跟主席還有各位員報告，有關第3案檢討DET的提案，我們會積極來進行，不過，因為還需要有一些法規預告等等，是不是可以從1個月延長為3個月內研擬改善方案，提出解決辦法？"],["主席：好，另外剛剛有委員提到你們開相關檢討會議的時候，希望委員可以參與，這個部分可以嗎？"],["石署長崇良：可以！可以！沒有問題。"],["主席：那就拜託你們開相關檢討會議的時候，同時通知立法院委員辦公室，這樣關心的委員他就可以去列席。"],["石署長崇良：好，沒有問題。"],["主席：謝謝。處理第4案。"],["石署長崇良：跟主席還有各位委員報告，有關第4案提到對於一些稀缺藥證的藥品在調藥價的時候能夠予以排除，這個在精神上我們都支持，不過，我們希望略做一些文字的調整，就是「爰要求衛福部，於本次修法時必須參採同時符合以下三項要件，各該品項之藥價不受藥價調整影響或排除在每年藥價調整之外：一、臨床上有需求─醫學會認證或依藥事法第二十七條之二必要藥品清單。」；以下的文字就是照列。"],["主席：請問廖委員，可以嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：可以。"],["主席：好，就按修正通過。"],["石署長崇良：謝謝委員。"],["主席：進行第5案。"],["石署長崇良：第5案林俊憲、黃秀芳委員的提案，有關於要政府撥補財源的部分，因為這還有很多的層級要討論，所以建議加二個字，就是建請政府「研議」撥補財源。"],["主席：黃秀芳委員，可以嗎？"],["黃委員秀芳：可以。"],["主席：好，修正通過。"],["石署長崇良：謝謝委員。"],["主席：處理第6案。"],["吳署長秀梅：報告委員，第6案有修正文字，第1行最後的「含致癌物」，我們建請修改為「含具有潛在致癌性」。"],["主席：好。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝。還有第2段的部分，第2段第2行的「爰要求衛福部」，我們希望可以增加文字，就是修正為「爰要求衛福部協調教育部於市場內蘇丹紅辣椒粉未清查完畢前，應通知團膳業者，暫停使用加辣椒粉」。"],["主席：不只是團膳業者，有一些是自辦廚房啊！所以你這樣子的寫法反而會漏掉一些。"],["吳署長秀梅：所以我們就修正為「通知營養午餐」，這樣應該就涵蓋全部了。"],["主席：對！對！對！"],["吳署長秀梅：修正為「應通知營養午餐業者，暫停使用加辣椒粉」。"],["主席：「應通知全國營養午餐業者」，按原來的文字就好，有什麼問題嗎？"],["吳署長秀梅：因為前面是寫到限制，我們這裡則是用「通知」他們暫停使用。"],["主席：通知暫停使用跟限制不是差不多嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為我們不是主管機關。"],["主席：好，但語意要對。你剛剛那個語意怪怪的。"],["吳署長秀梅：我們就修正為「應通知全國營養午餐……"],["主席：沒關係，你們再研議一下，好不好？比較精確一點，然後再給本席看一下，因為還有時間，待會先讓委員質詢，好不好？"],["吳署長秀梅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：這一案原則通過，就是文字要修正，食藥署把再修正的文字再給本席。"],["吳署長秀梅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們的臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來我們請黃健豪委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-4","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","林德福","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","李彥秀","林淑芬","黃健豪","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","林憶君","劉建國","陳瑩","楊曜","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健康保險署、食品藥物管理署就「健保藥價調整，藥廠停產慢性病用\n藥之因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":2.1234687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.805968750000002,"end":13.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.35784375,"end":15.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.93096875,"end":19.605968750000002},{"speaker":"S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今年的"},{"start":399.308,"end":417.081,"text":"我再問你去年12月11號已經百分之100的在查驗了為什麼這些廠商仍然有恃無恐繼續進口大量含蘇丹紅的辣椒粉他進來後被查到就退了啊我不再講查到被退他當然沒有成我上禮拜就跟你說啊查到沒關係沒事也沒了結你就叫他退官退回去中共而已沒有啦那退就已經是了結了"},{"start":427.008,"end":429.51,"text":"沒有了我唸完再跟你說為什麼這間家館都所有這幾天都跟這個公司他百分之一百逐批查驗了他在1月6號"},{"start":443.055,"end":451.202,"text":"仍然在繼續進口,而且進口量有多高呢?據我所知,好像是1月6號的是13696公斤。好,來第二張。但不是1月6號,它被退了!如你們所說被退了!"},{"start":464.725,"end":481.83,"text":"1月30查出布爾葛被退要求他退他1月30之後仍然還繼續進1月28OK沒關係他在你們百分之一百去年12月11就發布百分之一百逐批查驗的時候他仍然進我都說錯了"},{"start":484.411,"end":486.533,"text":"林淑芬 林淑芬 林淑芬"},{"start":513.632,"end":524.154,"text":"她的出口商從中國出來給我們的是龍海銅製你不要以為這是中國廠商,這是他們自己因為台灣李彥廷也有登記一家龍海銅製他們自己,剛才那些中國人,你看中國登記的他1997年就成立了"},{"start":536.63,"end":561.599,"text":"他1997年就食品原料、食品加工然後為什麼他在溯源追蹤系統他會登記的是什麼Kevin Shipping因為他的裡面的真正的出口商是龍海同志你退關退回去也是他們自己的公司啦退回去他們中國也是他們自己的公司啦"},{"start":563.493,"end":572.677,"text":"所以你看這個葉哲,我們看他有幾家公司啊?沒錯,我剛才說的那個初一十五是哪一家公司?是海順我拜他就說他有四間啊,現在再加一個海順"},{"start":580.908,"end":599.345,"text":"事實上他不是啦,你看他多少?金鎮、釜山、廣元、龍海、節展、嘉廣、初一、十五、食品有限公司、素食業、輪線、頂紀、海順、國際我剛才講了這個龍海同紀,他台灣也有登記在這裡看看,整間,九間"},{"start":608.615,"end":624.026,"text":"已經出包了,你酒家有沒有全部都查?食藥署署長,你有沒有全部都查?我想這部分的話,對於個別的這些廠商,如果是有輸入這種違規的,我們就禁止進口沒有啦,保證我不是在說如果的問題啦"},{"start":627.188,"end":646.049,"text":"至少經戰加廣都已經爆發食安事件了至少我禮拜一都已經跟你們說過他們的人頭公司很多這個經營者他們至少有很多家的經營者有很多家的公司的時候"},{"start":647.284,"end":649.026,"text":"為什麼立委Google就有了?"},{"start":667.079,"end":685.945,"text":"你整個食藥署專業的人力咧一千多人欸那你只是負責你政策責付出去地方政府也有人力欸那今天在這裡我覺得行政部門有道德風險啊你們食藥署的人有一種道德風險是什麼你知道嗎你們有辦法查好查滿嗎你查好查滿會不會像滾雪球一樣越滾越大"},{"start":694.828,"end":717.597,"text":"當你們為了避免越滾越大的時候是不是就不能太認真所以不做不錯多做多錯我現在看到的就是這樣子啊我Google就可以知道他有9家公司你知道他還有1家那個工廠登記嗎來看一下工廠登記我我這個"},{"start":720.21,"end":725.484,"text":"來 鐵皮屋工廠來我會講公司登記喔工廠登記你們有去查廠嗎?這個地方有去查過廠嗎?"},{"start":728.308,"end":749.776,"text":"因為所有要餐蘇丹紅都是辣椒要磨成粉以外是要加工餐入的加工過程才餐入的他現在有一種是邊境就餐入那還有加工廠這個我跟大家簡單問你這間工廠登記證他名字他是哪一家工廠工廠登記證嗎?名字叫什麼?FDA知道嗎?你不知道他有高經公司你也不知道"},{"start":758.661,"end":776.089,"text":"從委員的資料來看,我一看是用那個地址去查的,就通知的沒有啊,我們的公司登記毛,那個吳克銘三年也可以的啊我沒有辦法用這樣去查啦你為我不用去查捏,我只是google就有了捏"},{"start":777.964,"end":796.612,"text":"Google台灣公司網就有阿你Google一個加廣金站Google一個加廣他就告訴你加廣還有其他的這個分公司有沒有你Google這個加廣兩個字就全部找到連他的工廠登記都有我這就是工廠登記來的"},{"start":797.552,"end":800.314,"text":"林淑芬今天沒有講這9家公司你會去查9家嗎?沒有我今天講初一15素食食品公司"},{"start":827.55,"end":848.629,"text":"3月7號現在某某網站上還有現在大家Google進去都還有3月他還有特價3月1號到3月7號想最低價格八三折好我現在要再講喔我 我覺得你們這個東西很離譜以外我們整個事件喔我覺得查到最後非常可惡的是因為"},{"start":849.81,"end":869.444,"text":"如果我們整個食品安全的管理是仰賴業者自律,然後當初我們建置一個食品溯源系統,追蹤追溯系統,我們都這麼講,我們政府不斷跟大家講,你要來登錄,然後你要自律,如果你被我查到了,我要重罰。"},{"start":871.314,"end":892.091,"text":"今天查到了你也說重罰但是我現在問你業者查到要重罰但是如果政府被人民查到政府被立委查到你們就沒有在管要不要重罰因為現在上游的廠商登錄的是虛偽下游的廠商把青菜蝦蝦蝦沒多轉"},{"start":894.269,"end":911.506,"text":"你這樣,你根本就都沒在查,所以讓那個溯源追蹤追溯制度,淪於假的形式,讓我們食安五環破功。不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,"},{"start":917.432,"end":919.154,"text":"他在測試你政府的底線啊他在測試你政府可以容許會不會查嘛"},{"start":934.474,"end":949.608,"text":"然後你的下游,高雄市政府說他提供不出完整的下游名單,他也沒有嘛我現在再問你,在幾天拜議的時候,市屋署署長說,他們都有登錄,他們是登錄第23類"},{"start":951.449,"end":965.557,"text":"蘇長我現在更問你啦我們是7萬家的公司需要強制登錄的只有一萬家這一萬家裡面是在25個品項裡面他到底是基於哪一個品項所以必須要強登"},{"start":968.713,"end":981.168,"text":"因為25項大多數都是鎖定在3000萬以上的食品公司、食品工廠才必須啊我現在這樣問你,他是多一項啦,你告訴我他必須強登的規定是第幾個品項23萬"},{"start":985.049,"end":990.272,"text":"我現在要說的是你們的科長告訴我們燈仔不實他要登錄一個燈的原因是他是第24類不是23類"},{"start":1013.743,"end":1032.018,"text":"到底23還是24 林科長說的跟林書長說的不一樣再來說以這種業者自律嚴重的被查到我要重罰那政府現在發現政府就沒在管啊這樣人民發現你嚴重的疏失沒在管要不要重罰事務官、公務員要懲處啊"},{"start":1036.874,"end":1037.615,"text":"所以由此可知啊,瀆職的很嚴重"},{"start":1062.079,"end":1064.101,"text":"我現在在說的是你們沒有在查"},{"start":1077.153,"end":1080.796,"text":"112年逐批拖延到100%了你可以不用查嗎?如果他過去的紀錄在邊境都查到還有蘇丹紅而且屢次的被發現你不用去食品雲查嗎?"},{"start":1102.831,"end":1119.243,"text":"你不用去食品雲茶嗎?如果他是累犯,如果是鋁鋁,如果他是這樣子,我現在講說這一群人喔這一群人是不是故意的、組織性的在做啊?你看,他根本就是...我只要跟你講,他在台灣也有工廠登記也說是高競,如果在中國也有,你如果他輸出"},{"start":1130.451,"end":1139.473,"text":"中國輸出廠商寫龍海同濟他如果去抓到禁止輸入這樣他這間就壞了就不好啊但是他都把你用凱文虛品所以你還敢說我禁止了21家中國廠商你禁止的是凱文虛品你禁止的不是吳彥廷、吳克敏他們的龍海同濟叫Eastrong"},{"start":1159.465,"end":1184.406,"text":"而且你們還有一個我搞不懂的你們的新聞稿專區裡面這21家被中國中國被禁的廠商名稱21家在你們的新聞稿裡面沒有放上來沒有放21家的名稱而是隱藏在一個大家都看不到的地方苦心的一直問的去查才查得到這21家所以我很懷疑的"},{"start":1185.547,"end":1202.891,"text":"您為什麼都不公布在您的新聞稿專區新聞稿專區沒有放上去過這是不是有貓膩我們就不得而知了好謝謝林委員的質詢那請這個衛福部要積極的去查緝剛剛委員提供這麼多的資料積極去查"}]}},{"id":"149551","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149551","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe137583336616f8bd35d7358300cbb288f8ba9b0039caa7a612eae036270d068b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:46:25 - 11:57:05","影片長度":"00:10:40","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":640,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:57:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:46:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":969,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時46分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府首長官員、會場工作伙伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請邱主委。"],["主席：有請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員太三：鍾委員好！"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好！謝謝主委的關心，我今天要特別的來和你質詢、請教這個議題，這個議題的標題寫得很清楚，我想請教一下，請問主委，目前在臺灣有多少中配？我強調一下，當然，我是用中配，因為我們在地方是稱「中國配偶」，但是你是陸委會，你叫「陸配」，沒關係，就用你的方式，目前在臺灣有多少中配？人數？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上，臺灣的新住民總加起來大概有60萬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是問中配。"],["邱主任委員太三：這裡面中配大概是三十五萬多、將近36萬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：將近36萬。"],["邱主任委員太三：三十五萬多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我的資料大概是36萬。"],["邱主任委員太三：第二個，我還是要做幾個區別，因為有的委員不太清楚，這中間大概有12萬沒有住在臺灣，這些通常是臺幹的配偶或是子女，他們大部分都長期住在大陸，就像我的堂弟的太太。"],["鍾委員佳濱：帳面上有36萬，但是長期定居在中國境內的有十二萬多？"],["邱主任委員太三：大概12萬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。"],["邱主任委員太三：大概還有二十四萬多住在臺灣，這24萬裡面大概……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那請問一下，這當中有多少擁有臺灣的戶籍？有多少是屬於長期居留？"],["邱主任委員太三：大概有14萬人已經拿到我們的定居身分證，另外有10萬人在三個不同的階段，可能是先來這邊團聚、依親居留或長期居留。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以14萬是長期居留？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，14萬已經拿到定居了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：14萬是定居？"],["邱主任委員太三：24萬裡面有14萬已經定居了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，你的定居和我的長期居留我怕混淆，我說的是取得戶籍。"],["邱主任委員太三：這2個不一樣，長期居留是定居的前身，長期居留之後才是定期居留。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，定居就是取得戶籍嘛？定居是不是就取得戶籍？"],["邱主任委員太三：定居才取得戶籍。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是用取得戶籍，我的取得戶籍是你的定居，我說的長期居留就是沒有取得戶籍，是不是這樣？很清楚，我問的是有多少有戶籍？就是屬於定居的14萬。有多少是長期居留？11萬，這樣對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為我用的term跟你用的term不太一樣。好，那我請教一下，請問你知道目前臺灣有多少外配嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：剛剛提到大概有60萬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委，你不要再跟我算加法，我直接告訴你好了，我感覺你是要用60萬讓我減，我減得都頭昏腦脹。來，大概有快21萬，是不是這樣？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那請問在這些外配當中，中國籍以外的這些外配中，有多少有戶籍？又有多少是屬於長期居留？"],["邱主任委員太三：這個部分要問移民署。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們沒有這個資料對不對？要問移民署，好，我幫你查出來了，有14萬有戶籍；有6萬8,000人屬於長期居留。主委，你非常清楚什麼是有戶籍、什麼是長期居留，我也很清楚。接下來我要再問外配和中配的入籍流程，你看這個對不對？外配不入籍可以取得長期居留，對不對？要5年嘛！是不是這樣子？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：取得國籍是3年，但是他取得國籍不見得能夠定居，還要取得戶籍才能定居對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以長期居留對外配來講是一個選項，如果他要定居，就要設法先取得國籍，然後再來取得戶籍，是不是這樣？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很清楚，我沒有誤解吧！但是對中配來講呢！他長期居留要多久？他要多久才可以選擇長期居留？"],["邱主任委員太三：對啦！委員，我想你這個表應該很清楚，可以看得懂。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是4年嘛！但是如果他要取得戶籍，因為他沒有取得國籍的問題，所以再2年他就可以取得戶籍定居，定居就是取得戶籍，那請教一下，中配來臺定居有比較嚴格嗎？你覺得這個表？"],["邱主任委員太三：因為各自的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：解讀不同？"],["邱主任委員太三：因為各自的定位不同。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，沒關係。因為長期居留跟永久居留都可以無限期居留，就算沒有定居也可以無限期居留，是不是這樣？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，接下來這個問題我要請教你，往下看，為什麼這些人選擇保留原籍，沒有來入籍？你覺得？譬如我常飛越南，我在飛越南時遇到越籍的外配來臺灣，他帶著小孩坐飛機回越南，我就很好奇，因為我發現他不是拿臺灣護照，而是拿越南護照，因為我知道，如果他來臺灣取得臺灣的國籍，那他就要放棄越南的國籍，他就不能拿越南的護照，他要拿臺灣的護照。我問他來臺灣多久了？孩子都這麼大了，你怎麼沒有取得臺灣的國籍和戶籍來拿臺灣的護照？他說，我常常要回娘家，我拿越南的護照比較方便，是不是這樣？而且我這個孩子是在臺灣出生，他的爸爸是臺灣人，他本來就有臺灣的國籍，但是我帶他去越南，我拿越南的護照就可以幫他辦越南的國籍，未來有機會他可以在越南唸書，也可以在臺灣唸書，兩邊都可以，你覺得這位越南媽媽這樣的作法是不是也是很多外配的原因？"],["邱主任委員太三：我想一定是之一。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！之一嘛！所以我要告訴大家，很多外配選擇長期居留而不選擇入國籍或取得戶籍，是因為他想要保留原國的國籍和護照，甚至在他的孩子已經取得臺灣國籍的情況下，他覺得帶孩子回母國還滿方便的，這是很多外配的心聲，你同意嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：我想情理之中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那請問一下，在他沒有取得臺灣的戶籍跟國籍之前，如果他已經在臺灣長期居留了，那這跟他取得戶籍會有哪些待遇上的差別？他有沒有健保？有健保嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：差一張身分證差什麼？就是他不能投票，我都幫你講了，如果越配在臺灣沒有拿到身分證就不能投票，但是他放棄投票這個權利，維持擁有越南國籍和護照的方便，他可以帶他的小孩回去探親，他也可以讓他的小孩入越南的國籍，這樣他的小孩兩邊都可以唸書，是不是這樣？這是他們保留原籍的原因嘛！那請問一下，往下看，你覺得中配是不是也是這樣？這些選擇長期居留沒有入籍臺灣的中配，是不是也有這種考量？就跟越配一樣，我要帶孩子回上海或北京，你要知道，中國一線城市的戶籍如果放棄了要再取得容不容易？你笑笑的，我知道，因為在中國不同的省分，偏僻的省分要到一線城市取得戶籍很難，他如果結婚後來到臺灣，他要取得臺灣的身分證要放棄哪裡的戶籍？"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我想你很清楚，這有很多複雜的東西，外界不一定那麼清楚，你一掀開就變成大家不得不去面對這些問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，我要說的是，其實這個議題很特別，我問過很多外配和中配，其實他們都覺得這是個人生活的選擇，有人為了子女，所以他選擇長期居留，他沒有要入臺灣的國籍或戶籍，他沒有要在臺灣定居，但是這樣他的權益有沒有受損？他在臺灣一樣有健保，對不對？但是中配不一樣。"],["邱主任委員太三：生活、工作、社會福利都差不多一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都OK！但是要看一看非本國籍配偶取得身分證規定，外配要入籍臺灣要怎樣？要放棄國籍對不對？中配要不要？沒有嘛！那歸化測試？外配要歸化到臺灣有國籍要不要測試？要不要？根據你所知的，內政部是要嘛！中配要不要？"],["邱主任委員太三：不用。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你覺得中配來臺定居有比較嚴格嗎？好，往下看，因為時間快到了。中配的待遇高於外配，為什麼？因為外配的父母、子女不可以來臺依親，中配可不可以？"],["邱主任委員太三：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嘛！那健保的負擔？外配的父母來臺灣可以有健保嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：中配呢？不知道，要看居留的時間。"],["邱主任委員太三：對啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我也不會強拗，所以只有中配可以讓他的直系血親來臺依親。往下看，外籍配偶歸化要測試，這有3個選擇：就學一年、參加課程或通過測試，你覺得外配通過這個方式取得入籍臺灣合不合理？這不是……"],["邱主任委員太三：很多國家對於外配大部分都是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都是這樣嘛！那你覺得中配比照外配是不是要通過歸化測試？類似的測試？"],["邱主任委員太三：我希望社會能夠有比較多的討論和共識。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以結論就讓你評估了，最後的結論，訴求一，中配入籍後優於外配的待遇，我們社會希望檢討，因為現在顯然社會都認為外配的待遇比較好，其實相反，中配比較好，那要檢討，可不可以檢討一下？不要一個國家兩個待遇，中配和外配的待遇不一樣，中配是你管的，可不可以考慮檢討？"],["邱主任委員太三：我想院長已經講過，他希望社會能夠多溝通，後續再來看要怎麼做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多溝通，儘量一樣，對不對？第二個，我要求中配入籍可不可以比照外配通過考試？可不可以評估？先評估一下好不好？因為這有公平的問題，我遇到的越南媽媽和中國媽媽，為什麼越南媽媽來臺入籍要經過測試，中國媽媽不用？可不可以評估一下？"],["邱主任委員太三：委員的建議我們都會參考。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們評估後，把你們評估的結論給我可以嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：好，我們來參考一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝鍾佳濱的質詢，謝謝您！謝謝主委！主委，我要提醒您，其實健保的問題你剛才應該要再講清楚，探親的陸配家屬沒有濫用健保的問題，因為兩岸人民關係條例限制他們居留不可以超過6個月，對不對？目前依法陸配家屬要居留6個月以上才能夠拿到健保，但是這個條例不會讓他們待超過6個月，你剛應該要講清楚，所以健保濫用的問題是不存在的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我剛剛沒有問，所以他沒有回答。"],["主席：我現在要提醒，因為這個問題召委剛剛有提，但是你沒有時間回答，所以我現在補充回答，謝謝。","我們繼續請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員質詢，不在。","陳亭妃、陳亭妃、陳亭妃委員，不在。","鄭天財、鄭天財、鄭天財委員，不在。","張嘉郡、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員，不在。","張智倫、張智倫、張智倫委員，提書面報告。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員，不在。","謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯委員，不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員，不在。","林思銘、林思銘、林思銘委員，不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員，不在。","林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員，不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員，不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員，不在。","陳冠廷、陳冠廷、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是之一嘛就要告訴大家很多外派要選擇長期拘留"},{"start":347.54,"end":375.581,"text":"不選擇入國籍或取得戶籍是因為他想要保留原國的國籍保留原國的護照甚至他的孩子已經取得台灣國籍的情況下他覺得帶孩子回母國還蠻方便的這是很多外配的心聲你同意嗎同意嗎那請問一下他沒有取得台灣的戶籍跟國籍之前他如果已經在台灣長期居留了跟他取得戶籍有哪些待遇上的差別他有沒有健保"},{"start":377.042,"end":379.849,"text":"有健保嘛那差一張身份證差什麼"},{"start":382.005,"end":382.045,"text":"中佩"},{"start":412.833,"end":430.604,"text":"是不是也是這樣?這些選擇長期拘留沒有入籍台灣的中輩,是不是也是這種考量?就跟岳配一樣嘛,我要帶孩子回上海,我要帶孩子回北京,欸你要知道啊,中國的一線城市的戶籍放棄了,要再取得容易不容易?"},{"start":432.702,"end":446.055,"text":"小小的是說我知道因為在中國不同的省份你偏僻的省份你要到畢業一線城市其實你要取得戶籍很難他如果結婚來到台灣你要取得台灣的身份證要放棄哪裡的戶籍"},{"start":448.157,"end":462.346,"text":"所以我想你很清楚啦這個就是很多的複雜的東西齁外界不一定那麼清楚啦是那你一掀開大家就變成不得不在外面做一些問題所以我要說的是說其實這個議題很特別我問過很多外配很多中配"},{"start":463.286,"end":491.172,"text":"他們其實很多覺得說因為個人的生活選擇他為了子女他選擇他選擇長期居留他們要入台灣的國籍或者他們要入台灣的戶籍他沒有要在台灣有定居但是他的權益有沒有受損在台灣一樣有健保對不對但是中配不一樣生活工作都OK社會福利都差不多但是你要看一看非本國籍被學生的規定但是外配要來台灣入籍要怎樣要放棄國籍對不對"},{"start":492.472,"end":521.389,"text":"中配要不要?沒有嘛那規劃測試 外配要規劃到台灣有國籍 要不要測試?要不要?你所指的那這麼要嘛中配要不要?不用那你覺得中配來台定居比較嚴格嗎?好往下看 因為時間快到了來 中配的待遇呢高於外配啦 為什麼?因為外配的父母子女可以來依親 中配可不可以?沒有 說錯了 外配不可以 中配可不可以?"},{"start":523.568,"end":537.595,"text":"建保的負擔 外配的父母來台灣可以有健保嗎沒有 中配呢 不知道看居留時間所以只有中配可以讓他的直系血清來移清往下看"},{"start":540.19,"end":555.422,"text":"那我現在說那外配的配偶規劃要測試除了社長有三個選擇嘛要不就選擇就學一年要不就選擇參加課程要不然就通過測試你覺得外配通過這個方式取得台灣的入籍合不合理那你覺得中配比賽外配是不是要通過規劃測試"},{"start":572.277,"end":589.79,"text":"中配入籍後優於外配的待遇我們社會希望檢討因為現在顯然社會認為說外配的待遇比較好其實相反啊中配比較好啊那檢討啊可不可以檢討一下不要一個國家兩個待遇嘛中配跟外配待遇不一樣嘛中配是你管的嘛可不可以考慮一下檢討考慮檢討"},{"start":592.394,"end":613.662,"text":"我想政府院長已經通過了他講過了他希望能夠社會多溝通多溝通盡量一樣對不對好盡量一樣第二個那我就要求中配入籍可不可以比照外配通過考試可不可以評估評估一下好不好因為這是公平的問題嘛我遇到了越南媽媽跟遇到了中國媽媽為什麼越南媽媽來台灣入籍要經過測試中國媽媽不用"},{"start":618.922,"end":619.442,"text":"鍾佳濱主席鍾佳濱主席"}]}},{"id":"149550","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149550","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbec50b8e7304548acc35d7358300cbb288f8ba9b0039caa7a68773759d3bad123a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"11:37:48 - 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今年2月才開始所以現在有八百多人已經到那裡了這樣結束了因為這人是要保障保障他們的醫療再來一點就是我們過去台灣的農產品輸了我們的電話機我們有很多檢驗的問題做成功的很多農民"},{"start":209.662,"end":214.249,"text":"他們的信心,你這裡的經濟就介紹就都農民都很慘淡,我們消防方的東南亞國家跟日本,現在進行得怎麼樣?"},{"start":223.571,"end":231.714,"text":"這個部門可能要問農業部但是我所了解當然我們坦白說我之前有跟中國一邊的人標籤說你這樣等於當掉兩邊還有經貿的這種交流其實對你們來說不一定比較好因為你逼台灣的政府一定是專銷去外國"},{"start":245.679,"end":256.088,"text":"吳琪銘的動作就是如果要專銷外國的時候他第一個因為我們知道農業產品的保存期比較長所以農委員會去做一個所謂兩鏈的設備及技術的提升這兩鏈的技術設備及提升本來可能一個水果可能一個月的市面期他現在變成可以兩個月三個月這樣有助於外銷其他國家"},{"start":271.221,"end":273.584,"text":"所以他們過去他們都常常說前議有問題但是我們去東南亞跟日本國家就沒問題"},{"start":289.284,"end":293.429,"text":"講一個規模喔 日本說 新加坡說不 只有中國說有 這是 獨立說不會過講一個形容 再追上酒班啦所以說在這個部分喔 我們也是相對化齁 這邊 為什麼說我都介意 我都堅持說喔"},{"start":307.223,"end":317.227,"text":"我們陸委會以及海基會我們也要溝通一個管道的暢通是不是可以恢復說農產品的思路對岸遺產的稅路對岸因為農民跟水產的大家都是很辛苦所以在這部分是你的我們對立法是你的譴責單位這部分你要再加強我會來努力希望立法也要用其他的因素"},{"start":335.981,"end":336.281,"text":"有請李董事長"},{"start":363.222,"end":367.028,"text":"主委可以休息嗎?好,主委休息休息,辛苦了辛苦了"},{"start":370.041,"end":394.433,"text":"吳委員好董事長我看你的經歷以前是外交部長還有駐美代表還有總統府秘書長所以你跟對岸溝通的管道應該還是有你的海基會的管道這一點你來說明一下跟吳委員報告外交就是一個化不可能為可能的藝術"},{"start":396.954,"end":417.826,"text":"也就是說是希望能夠劃劍為梨大家都一個和平穩定發展的一個共同的願景我想這也是海峽兩岸的決策當局都是用資深的外交官擔任彼此的對口"},{"start":418.766,"end":441.987,"text":"那我方呢當然是我本人在大陸方面呢這個海協會就是張志軍先生他也是位非常有經驗的資深外交官所以說是啊我也在不同的場合啊一再啊對公開的呼籲啊希望雙方啊能夠溝通能夠交流能夠對話"},{"start":444.323,"end":459.353,"text":"國人對你的期待都很高因為你是一個外交部長所以你有外交的手腕相信你一定有你的管道這個應該是滿暢通的我們國人還是希望說大家能在穩定和平中台灣的發展所以對我們的董事長期望都很高謝謝我們要一起努力好不好"},{"start":473.542,"end":473.682,"text":"主席主席"}]}},{"id":"149549","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149549","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe10a7c1756a8ef0c835d7358300cbb288f8ba9b0039caa7a6c5814b0a7dced5285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"11:27:17 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增加兩方的交流嗎?委員我剛才有向其他委員報告過其實兩方30多年來 已經有很多互動的經驗及技術包括簽到26項的協議"},{"start":119.093,"end":124.435,"text":"那就是過去這7、8年 坦白說相方也有一些個案發生後有一些處理上當然一定要互相大家當時來做改觀所以這都是一個好的經驗和善意的標託我們希望說過去的機制如果是什麼大家就才有過去的機制但是我問中國有時候因為你也知道台灣的選舉"},{"start":145.342,"end":145.462,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":159.668,"end":161.469,"text":"這應該是都像這個溝通,我們要加強我們兩方的溝通"},{"start":184.894,"end":189.077,"text":"一直以為對方比較負友善來對待我們,我們總要用這個負友善的方式來擴大兩方的關係。我是希望我們可以比較積極地提出"},{"start":202.944,"end":204.865,"text":"我們的生意比較積極：繼續做溝通的行為我相信主動提出我們的生意：主動來支持：來提出溝通的方針我相信一定會達到好的結果不然像我們現在這樣：關係惡劣"},{"start":230.461,"end":244.348,"text":"受損的也是我們的財政我們主委也知道說我們現在這個不只是觀光集團還造成我們這個理行業者的很多損失聽說我們經常這個事件延伸出來也有說大陸最近廢棄我們的觀光資源去跟我們檢查"},{"start":254.773,"end":262.536,"text":"對,發聲後的第幾天,因為那個時候是走在他們那邊,走在他們那邊過去應該是沒有發聲過啦過去應該是沒有發聲過啦過去是我對外界去的那兩天,他們也要跟我們說還是跟我們出題啦就是說大家互相都...應該過去也沒有說會登船去檢查啦"},{"start":282.202,"end":287.586,"text":"有時說我給你驅趕那個意思啦報告我委員報告其實過去有啦但是大家互相都在海面上就處理到了啦所以這就是大家現在關係比較後面發生出來的問題我們民眾第一上市就衝擊我們政府也需要做一些比較具體的一個對策來解決我們民眾的問題"},{"start":310.382,"end":316.664,"text":"我是希望說兩方的關係,我們不要說路越走越低,包括我們台灣的一些農產品,我們的觀光、生機、海船、航空船,都去用線索而已,現在都線索而已。走這樣,大家未來的出路,會都受影響,變成是牆壁了,對啦,就請我們主委,"},{"start":339.177,"end":362.279,"text":"講到這個問題,我們想想看有什麼比較好的方式,我們因應民眾的利益為優先來想,找看看有什麼比較好的方式可以來解決。是是是,我們也一直在想,但是主要都是這樣,我們國家的安全和利益,基本上我們是要先顧好,這樣。"},{"start":363.76,"end":369.302,"text":"其實安全是很重要的,利應也很重要,這兩項是都重要的,我們自己把我們接觸到整個溝通的整個友善的原因在內,把我們收回在內,還有怎樣,我們應該就怕不出來,"},{"start":387.108,"end":391.432,"text":"我聽到有提起中華中教交流已經很久了,但我們陸委會每年會過年,很認真跟國內"},{"start":406.124,"end":417.371,"text":"我們的宗教團體有去辦一些見面會：說有請大家講講時講聽去大陸進行這個宗教交流：還有發佈新聞講大陸對我們國家宗教交流有這個統戰的因素"},{"start":427.378,"end":431.881,"text":"說有這個動作的因素,提出說要做學術、在交流、在交活動的我們國人,若沒有說很重要的,請不要期待,希望我們有去做這個動作。"},{"start":443.007,"end":453.85,"text":"議員對於我們國民去大陸我們都會把過去發生的一些狀況提供給我們國民了解第一當然他們很多發言的修改往往就會造成一些風險我坦白跟委員講我們有人要去團搞結果被人扣棄因為你知道中國現在對宗教的控制跟要求宗教一定要中國化但是問題是有的宗教"},{"start":471.716,"end":472.057,"text":"丁學忠委員"},{"start":486.411,"end":500.655,"text":"事實就是信仰就是大陸人都從大陸過來比較古的信仰大國府都從大陸過來大家都會想遭遇在大陸他們會想說要回去進行一個宗教的一個交流我們在基站我們在地方基站常常都有發生這個狀況我相信啦我相信像我剛剛說的"},{"start":514.707,"end":516.069,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":534.471,"end":538.496,"text":"我相信我們陸委會是會去做這個其實我們也不要把我們的宗教交流想到什麼程度當然他們要過當然一定是經國委員會過有可能說單獨幾個要過"},{"start":554.835,"end":562.318,"text":"總搞交流就是我們把它當作是一個… 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Kacaw委員：（11時46分）主席、各位委員、部長、法務部所有官員。法務部的業務報告通常都會比較少著墨原住民的部分，原住民族基本法第三十條是在民國94年2月5日公布施行，施行到現在已經非常、非常久了，裡面特別提到，政府處理原住民族事務、制定法律或實施司法與行政救濟程序、公證、調解、仲裁或類似程序，應尊重原住民族之族語，尊重族語的部分都非常落實，唯一落實的就是族語，通譯的部分都很落實；接下來還有尊重傳統習俗、文化及價值觀，保障其合法權益，這部分亟待加強。同條第二項是政府為保障原住民族之司法權益，得設置原住民族法院或法庭，當然這個都沒有；但是專庭的部分，我在101年開始擔任立法委員，我那時候就質詢當時的司法院秘書長，就設了專庭，沒有設原住民族法院，就設了原住民族的專庭，如果有涉及到原住民族案件，就有一個專庭，法務部也配合原住民族案件，設有專責檢察官。實施了這麼多年，從101年開始實施到現在，這個原住民案件專責檢察官的部分亟待加強，我們知道檢察官都很忙，所以相關的訓練、對原住民族的傳統習俗及文化價值觀的瞭解，這個部分一直做得不夠。我之前曾經針對一個案子，不知道部長當時在不在場？這個案子是兩年前一個八十幾歲的老先生，他從小父母親就留下來的土地、從小跟著父母親一起耕種的土地，而且那塊土地是原住民保留地，因為鄉公所的一個錯誤，把地出租給瑞穗牧場，結果打官司，提出訴訟，檢察官起訴，然後一審判他敗訴，要服有期徒刑，他一看這個判決，不到一個禮拜就過世了，他原本身體很好，看了判決不到一個禮拜就過世了。現在上網看還是看得到這個案子，結果這個判決是錯誤的，後來發現是錯誤的，是怎麼樣的錯誤？法官是用山坡地保育利用條例第三十七條來判他有期徒刑，結果一查，他的地不是行政院所核定公告的山坡地，因為山坡地跟山坡地保育區不一樣，山坡地保育區不等於山坡地，何況那個又是原住民保留地，所以這個就是因為不瞭解才會這樣判，這個部分也沒辦法上訴，因為他過世了，不能上訴，說要再審，也不讓他再審，這個人就揹了一生的污名。這個部分是一個需要解決的部分，所以加強原住民族案件專案檢察官的訓練這個部分一直做得不夠，針對這個部分，請法務部針對這5年來對原住民族案件專責檢察官，你們到底有辦怎麼樣的訓練，提供這部分的資料，可以嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員的指教。其實我們也有在辦，都有在辦，但是可以再加強，尤其可以請對原住民文化有深入瞭解的專家學者來跟我們上課，我們會再加強。"],["鄭天財Sra 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今天法務部的業務報告當然通常都會比較少著墨原住民的部分"},{"start":19.59,"end":46.312,"text":"原住民族基本法第30條是在民國94年2月5日公布施行施行到現在已經非常非常久了這裡面特別提到政府處理原住民族事務制定法例或實施司法與行政救濟程序公正調解仲裁或劣勢程序應尊重原住民族的族裔"},{"start":47.276,"end":65.334,"text":"主義的部分都非常落實唯一落實的就是主義通義的部分都很落實接下來的傳統習俗文化及價值觀保障其合法權益這部分就是期待加強"},{"start":66.667,"end":95.241,"text":"那這個第二項政府為保障原住民組織司法權益得設置原住民組法院或法庭當然這個都沒有但是專庭的部分我在101年開始擔任這個立法委員所以我那時候就質詢當時的司法院的秘書長就設了專庭就沒有到這個法院是專庭原住民組的專庭"},{"start":96.212,"end":124.532,"text":"如果涉及到原住民族案件就有一個專庭那法務部也配合原住民族案件的專責的檢察官這個也有那現在就是實施這麼多年101年開始實施到現在這個原住民族案件的專責的檢察官的部分即待加強"},{"start":126.311,"end":154.41,"text":"當然我們都知道檢察官都很忙所以相關的訓練相關的對原住民族的傳統習俗文化價值觀的了解這個部分呢一直做得不夠一直做得不夠這個我之前我不知道部長在不在場啦之前我曾經針對一個案子"},{"start":155.785,"end":182.198,"text":"一個老先生八十幾歲兩年前八十幾歲的老先生他從小就在他父母親留下來的土地從小就跟著父母親在那邊耕種的土地而且是原住民保留地因為這個相公所的一個錯誤也把他出租給這個出租給這個這個瑞穗牧場"},{"start":186.985,"end":214.11,"text":"打官司訴訟一審判決當然檢察官起訴一審判決拜書要有期徒刑八十幾歲一看判決不到一個禮拜就過世身體很好不到一個禮拜就過世你現在上網看還是有"},{"start":215.458,"end":242.418,"text":"但是他 結果這個判決是錯誤的後來是發現錯誤的是怎麼樣錯誤的他是用山坡地保育利用條例上的7條來去判他有期徒刑山坡地保育利用條例去判他山坡地 結果一查他不是行政院所核定公告的山坡地"},{"start":243.84,"end":261.511,"text":"因為山坡地跟山坡地保育區不一樣山坡地跟山坡地保育區它是山坡地保育區它不等於山坡地何況那個又是原住民保留地所以這個就是不了解所以這個部分是這個"},{"start":264.022,"end":264.282,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":292.34,"end":321.117,"text":"這幾年來五年來好了這五年來對專責案件的原住民主案件的專責檢察官的到底你們有辦什麼樣的一個訓練這個部分請提供可以嗎?謝謝委員的指教那其實我們也有在辦都有在辦但是可以再加強尤其也可以請對原住民文化深入了解的專家學者來跟我們上課我們會再加強"},{"start":322.657,"end":350.576,"text":"好接下來就因為時間的關係行事訴訟法95條也是我在101年開始當立法委員我正好在司法法制委員會當初提出修正特別增加了這個得選任辯護人就是原住民的部分可以得選任辯護人續任被告的時候要選任辯護人現在要去加強的部分是什麼呢"},{"start":351.926,"end":378.934,"text":"因為現在你們回去可以統計這5年來統計這5年來因為依刑事適用法95條徇運被告無論是這個警戒可能裡面比較沒有最起碼檢察官的部分很少 為什麼同時來因為警察警方移送過去時間很短"},{"start":380.571,"end":396.377,"text":"時間很短,要不要申請律師,還要等,大概都是簽不用,這條條文的就沒有辦法落實,這個就是怎麼樣去檢討這個過程,有的東西其實沒有那麼擠,"},{"start":407.411,"end":432.198,"text":"這非得要從警方那邊直接就送過去其實可以讓他先回去先把檢察官的這些檢察官也不是那麼容易那個律師也不是那麼容易那麼容易就可以請來還有一些程序所以這個部分一直沒有辦法落實這個部分是不是也去檢討好不好"},{"start":433.203,"end":452.478,"text":"好 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plus緊張你看大家有在緊張有些還不緊張啊但我就軍方主委來講的話這已經瀕臨這狀態但並沒有變的兩岸的狀況是很嚴峻的我每天停吊膽的這沒有變的A級B級我覺得好像每個人界定不同但還是不離這個這個這個原意嘛就是是很緊張的就我主委來看一直很緊張的"},{"start":121.296,"end":141.965,"text":"請問你一直很緊張是一直上來緊張一直上來還是說是頻頻的都是緊張是哪一個就看狀況嘛因為最近這些狀況不就上來一點嗎等下這狀況過以後會不會有其他狀況是往上提或往下降我不知道啊但我們就以現實來講的話現在狀況的確是很緊張一個處理不當的話我很擔憂是不是擦槍走火了會不會擦槍走火"},{"start":149.068,"end":168.237,"text":"我們就不樂見會不會我也不知道你在2022你也講過2025年中國大陸具備全面犯台的能力這句話你講過這句話那現在還成立嗎?一樣成立他要犯台他隨時才一個沒有衡量所以我還強調一句話要慎戰謹慎的慎要謹慎他有這個能力了"},{"start":175.8,"end":199.492,"text":"藝人他講說已經錯估了反正我打我給你教訓他沒什麼不能的這我支持不了我是認為他近幾天不會打啦我是這樣看的我怎麼看他都不會打會打的話就不是這個樣子這個倒是不需要太緊張然後你說緊張好你晚上睡著好不好"},{"start":200.473,"end":219.739,"text":"我就緊張啊,老百姓不緊張,我沒有一個性虐的喔今天假如國防部長他一點都不緊張的話,大副委員你就要緊張啦,這要為了緊張我真的很緊張,但我不是一個性虐的話緊張,晚上是睡得好,晚上睡得好嗎?我睡得不好睡得不好,需要吃藥囉,電視剛才委員我說需要到吃藥的程度嗎?沒有沒有吃藥"},{"start":227.964,"end":230.568,"text":"我才不是要我來echo一下你緊張了513區我的選區"},{"start":240.629,"end":264.32,"text":"空軍閒置用地,憲兵開始搬進去啦!要成立一個憲兵營,500人的在我的選區裡面,原來是空軍不要用了馬政府就這個地啊,不要用了這個空軍都搬走了,是空地現在呢,回來了,憲兵回來了開始,車輛要進來槍械要進來,炮彈要進來,油要進來"},{"start":270.948,"end":298.59,"text":"開始準備要打仗了不是嗎這個我公務都有我公務都有你們這個要不要說明一下有這麼緊張嗎這怎麼會原來空地我們原來的我們的居民都好高興啊這裡面文山區有山多啦魂木多電線桿多軍營多啦啊軍營呢好不容易清了差不多啦好高興結果又跑回來了"},{"start":300.337,"end":318.466,"text":"當然要緊張阿 我都聽你緊張阿來解釋一下請憲兵跟委員做為什麼要這樣什麼原因阿委員好 跟委員報告我們這個新德里營區這個部分是配合我們新興殯儀的一個編程那我們來做這個規劃來做進駐是不是增加一個憲兵營在這裡沒有到一個憲兵營"},{"start":321.348,"end":322.089,"text":"邱國正報告業務概況：賴士葆"},{"start":344.466,"end":344.646,"text":"賴主席"},{"start":364.113,"end":385.615,"text":"怎麼會這個樣子的,本來不要用的,本來我們居民好高興,有塊地好幾公頃,這麼大的一塊地,結果你們又用了,又拿去用了,當然緊張啊,怎麼不緊張呢?我跟委員報告,我請憲兵啊。你不是很清楚,我覺得。你做說明好了,加上物資進出的話,也不要講要打仗,打仗的話就槍砲進出啦。"},{"start":388.157,"end":388.337,"text":"各位請請回"}]}},{"id":"149546","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149546","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe09cc0107abf97f6f3ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a604e63636352635c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:41:08 - 11:50:19","影片長度":"00:09:11","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":551,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:50:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:41:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":875,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時41分）請王部長。"],["主席：請經濟部王部長說明。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我今天一早也聽了各位委員的質詢，我聽到大家有一個說法，尤其是國民黨的委員講到看守內閣期間不該漲電價，我聽了這個說法當然有一點困惑。請教部長，就你知道的，2016年1月馬政府進入看守以後，在上半年520之前，馬政府有沒有調整電價？"],["王部長美花：有，其實有。"],["洪委員申翰：當然，我記得那時候應該是調降了非常大的比率，所以當時也引起社會很多的紛擾，當時很多的專家學者也說調降這麼大的比率其實是短多長空，因為大家都知道這次降幅這麼大，接下來要陸陸續續調上來就會遭到社會很多的阻力，所以這是為什麼當時有很多人說那是短多長空，可能不利於長期能源政策。先請教部長，就你知道的，臺灣的電價在國際上是偏低或偏高？"],["王部長美花：在國際上是偏低的。"],["洪委員申翰：偏低的，大家的認知差不多，其實低電價我們看到有一些優勢，包括也許可以吸引外資進入臺灣、穩定民生物價，但負面影響也是有的，包括比較難形成節約的概念、造成浪費或低效益的使用，也包括國營電力公司入不敷出、全民買單，甚至是全民實質補貼用電大戶，也包括在這段時間在淨零的情境中，國際上都在講水電的補貼會難以形成健康的綠色經濟市場，所以都是可能帶來的負面效果。當然我們知道現在因為烏俄戰爭的原因，看起來這波確實有很大的調整電價，尤其可能是調漲的壓力，但我覺得現在因應降低衝擊方面，最實質的做法恐怕是政府應該大力協助用戶以最有效率和聰明的方式用電，部長同不同意？"],["王部長美花：我完全同意，國際能源總署其實也提到，節能其實是第一個要優先考慮的項目。"],["洪委員申翰：針對這個部分想請教部長，我們看到政府其實花了很大的力氣投資智慧電表，目前的進度如何？"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，今年底行政院給台電的目標是300萬具，目前已經達到二百八十幾萬具，所以大概年中的時候就會完成300萬具的目標。"],["洪委員申翰：智慧電表並不是裝了就會節電，對不對！"],["王總經理耀庭：是的。"],["洪委員申翰：智慧電表要拿來用啊！所以現在我要問台電的是，我們現在裝了這麼多，年底確實會做到300萬具，我們之後的應用計畫是什麼？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們一直很期望全民都能夠有效率的用電，所謂有效率的用電就是因應再生能源時代的來臨，我們在正中午太陽能非常多的情況下，大家用電的器具就在那個時候使用，到了晚上就少用一點，大概是這樣的概念，但是這樣的概念……"],["洪委員申翰：我現在問的是智慧電表裝上去以後，你希望大家怎麼應用智慧電表？你要應用它才會有節電的效果，才會有效率的能源管理，我們裝上去以後的應用計畫是什麼？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們已經開發了一些app，所以只要用戶已經改成app之後，我們在電費單上面都會通知他，你已經改成新的智慧電表了，我們台電有app可以使用，歡迎你們來安裝這個app。"],["洪委員申翰：總經理講得很好，我們現在假設裝了281萬具，你知道現在app的使用人數大概多少嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：高壓已經全部都使用，而且使用得非常好。"],["洪委員申翰：我現在說的是低壓。"],["王總經理耀庭：低壓的部分已經有160萬戶使用。"],["洪委員申翰：總經理，我知道的數字不是這樣，我知道現在使用app的數字恐怕不到20萬戶，也就是我們有很多的住戶裝了智慧電表，可是他並沒有使用，甚至我有很多朋友的家裡裝了，也許在地下室台電去換了，但是他根本不知道自己被換了，所以我們有很多是換了、裝了，但是他根本就不知道，還是依原本的能源使用習慣，我得知的app使用數字大概不到20萬，如果用281萬當作分母的話，恐怕不到10%的人真正使用智慧電表和相關應用程式。總經理，這個數字你覺得滿意嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：我當然不滿意，我希望能夠做得更好，更好的原因就是在誘因方面如何讓民眾更有感，其實我們知道價格信號在國外是非常好的一個……"],["洪委員申翰：總經理，所以我花了一些時間，也跟台電詢問我們裝完智慧電表以後後續有沒有應用計畫，台電有沒有提一個應用計畫或推廣計畫，可是我聽到的都只有我們有設計app，可是app的使用率卻又這麼低，不到10%，這變成我們有很多投資的智慧電表可能是晾在那邊的。"],["王總經理耀庭：目前我們已經跟第三方合作，第三方也正在做這方面，他們在裝了第二條通訊路徑跟家裡的家電可以結合，可以參加我們……"],["洪委員申翰：假設app是使用和應用的關鍵的話，到底我們希望app的成長速度和進程要多少，這要有一個目標，而不是現在這不到10%的數字，我們這樣會被懷疑投資智慧電表的效益到底在什麼地方。"],["王總經理耀庭：是，我們來加速這方面的訓練和推廣。"],["洪委員申翰：可不可以在1個月內提出一個應用計畫跟提供使用擴大滲透率的進程和目標，而不是停留在現在的數字？可以嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：可以。"],["洪委員申翰：對於電價的調漲，我們接下來最在意的事情其實是對這些中低收入戶或社會底層的影響，其實在氣候法第四十六條公正轉型裡面有規定每個目的事業主管機關應該針對主管的業務，提出公正轉型行動方案送公正轉型的主辦機關，也就是國發會。照理來說，假設現在我們要漲電價，我們要提出因應衝擊的方案，這是不是就是公正轉型的概念？"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["洪委員申翰：如果這是公正轉型的概念，我們有沒有提出公正轉型的行動方案？我說的是經濟部的部分。"],["曾次長文生：報告委員，我們這次是局部的議題，但是你提到所有公正轉型的部分，我們都有參加國發會的委員會議，這個部分我們會一併來調整，但是我們在過去兩年的電價調整方案都有把這個價值考慮在裡面，我想這個部分社會上應該都知道我們都有考慮過相關的作法。"],["洪委員申翰：我當然知道我們在調整的方案上有考慮，但是現在大家會期待的是可能需要更多的配套來協助我們的底層、弱勢來因應這件事，其實可能要有個公正轉型的方案，不一定是完整的經濟部全部的方案，但是針對這個部分若有這樣的方案可以提出，至少對於經濟弱勢或社會底層，他會知道他是被政府所協助與支持的，除了在我們調整的方案以外，我覺得這部分應該是經濟部優先考慮的事情，可以嗎？"],["曾次長文生：了解，我知道委員提的，包括協助弱勢節電等等都是可以做的具體方案。"],["洪委員申翰：這部分請經濟部再帶回去，現在討論的時候，我覺得要讓大家有信心是政府會支持的，當然，你們在方案的架構下面有考慮，可是也許很多弱勢的用戶，你需要補助他汰換用電的設備或協助他用電的診斷，這些事情是我們可以做的，我覺得大家在這個時間點會更期待這件事情，謝謝。"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔）：謝謝。接下來請蔡委員易餘質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra 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這個在國際能源總署其實也是提到節能其實是第一個要去優先考慮的項目部長那如果針對這部分我就想來跟部長請教我們看到其實政府花了很大的力氣來去投資所謂的智慧電表那智慧電表目前的進度如何"},{"start":181.426,"end":200.547,"text":"報告委員,今年行政院給台電的目標是300萬具,目前已經達到280幾萬具,所以大概年中的時候就會完成300萬具的目標。但是總經理,智慧電表並不是裝了就會節電,對不對?是的。智慧電表要拿來用啊。"},{"start":201.638,"end":217.107,"text":"所以我要問現在我要問台電的事情是我們現在裝了這麼多年底可能就確實會做到300萬具那我們之後的應用計畫是什麼報告委員我們一直很希望就是全民都能夠有效率的用電"},{"start":218.027,"end":218.227,"text":"我現在問的是說﹖"},{"start":235.396,"end":258.422,"text":"智慧電表裝上去以後你希望大家怎麼來應用這個智慧電表你要應用它才會有節電的效果才會有效率的能源管理那我們後續裝上去以後的應用計畫是什麼我們已經開發了一些APP所以只要用戶已經裝成改成APP之後我們在電費單上面都會通知他你已經改成新的智慧電表了"},{"start":259.282,"end":286.908,"text":"我們台電有APP可以使用歡迎你們來安裝這個APP總經理你講得很好我們現在假設裝了281萬具你知道現在我們使用APP的使用人數到底多少嗎?高壓已經全部都使用而且用得非常好我現在說低壓低壓的話已經有160萬戶已經使用了那個總經理我知道數字不是這樣我知道現在在使用APP的數字恐怕不到20萬戶"},{"start":289.502,"end":317.309,"text":"也就是我們有很多的住戶他裝了智慧電表可是他並沒有在使用甚至我有很多的朋友他家裡被裝了也許在他地下室換了台電去換了但他根本就不知道自己被換了所以我們有很多是換了裝了但他根本就不知道他還是用原本的能源使用習慣我得知的APP的使用的數字大概不到20萬"},{"start":319.048,"end":330.92,"text":"算下來其實目前如果用281萬當作分母的話恐怕不到10%的人真正在使用這個智慧電表跟相關的應用程式阿"},{"start":332.542,"end":352.667,"text":"總計你覺得這個數字你滿意嗎我當然不滿意我希望能夠做得更好那更好的原因就是說在誘因方面如何讓民眾更有感那其實我們知道價格訊號事實上在國外是非常好的所以我花了一些時間我也跟台電這邊來詢問那我們裝完智慧電板以後後續的應用有沒有應用計畫"},{"start":354.187,"end":367.53,"text":"台電有沒有提一個應用計畫或者是有沒有推廣計畫可是我聽到的都是只有我們會設計APP可是APP的使用率卻又這麼低不到10%這變成是我們有很多投資的智慧電表可能是亮在那邊的喔"},{"start":370.112,"end":389.125,"text":"目前我們已經期望跟第三方合作第三方也正在做這方面就是他們在裝了那個第二條通訊路徑跟家裡的家電可以結合那麼可以參加我們的訓練總之我覺得我們其實應該要定一個假設APP是使用跟應用的關鍵的話到底我們希望APP的成長的速度跟進程要多少"},{"start":389.505,"end":389.785,"text":"接下來我要問"},{"start":418.322,"end":442.489,"text":"電價的調漲當然我們接下來會最在意的事情其實會對於這些中低收入戶或者是社會底層的影響其實在氣候法裡面其實有46條公正轉型的方案裡面只有說每個主管的機關目的世界主管機關應該針對主管的業務提出公正轉型行動方案來送公正轉型的主辦機關也就是國發會"},{"start":443.869,"end":457.237,"text":"照理來說現在假設我們要漲電價我們要提出因應衝擊的方案這是不是就公正轉型的概念是那這如果這是公正轉型的概念我們有沒有提出公正轉型的行動方案我說經濟部的部分"},{"start":461.104,"end":467.847,"text":"報告委員這一個部分是這樣就是說我們這一次是局部的一個議題就是那個但是你提到就是說公正轉型的部分我們都有參加國發會的委員會議那這一個部分我們會一併來做調整但是我們在過去兩年的電價調整方案事實上都有把這樣子的一些價值考慮在裡面我想"},{"start":483.693,"end":507.621,"text":"這個部分社會上應該都知道我們都有考慮過這些相關的那個董事長我知道我們當然在調整的方案上有考慮但是現在大家會期待說我們可能需要更多的配套來去協助我們的底層或弱勢來去因應這個事情其實可能要有一個公正轉型的方案不一定是完整的經濟部全部的方案但針對這個部分有一個這樣的方案可以提出來至少對於我們的經濟弱勢或者是社會底層"},{"start":508.181,"end":528.432,"text":"他知道我是被政府給協助跟支持的部分除了在我們調整的方案以外我覺得這部分是經濟部應該優先考慮的事情可以嗎?了解 我知道委員提的就是包括協助做事、節電等等這些都是可以做的具體方案是好 這部分就請經濟部再帶回去我覺得現在在討論的時候我覺得要讓大家有信心是政府會支持的"},{"start":528.592,"end":528.812,"text":"謝謝委員提到"}]}},{"id":"149545","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149545","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe7fa210bf886768d8a2c0e3c4ee948455f8ba9b0039caa7a63d00db2279bb929c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:39:40 - 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謝謝院長謝謝委員 謝謝教委"}]}},{"id":"149544","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149544","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe9c45192796cd510d52afbb2d65d0dae1f8ba9b0039caa7a6ab0d6644c104b4b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:43:47 - 11:48:57","影片長度":"00:05:10","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-3"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":310,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:48:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:43:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":688,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時43分）主席、各位列席官員、各位委員以及在場人員，大家好。有請邱部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長國正：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。","現在蘇丹紅造成的食安危機已經嚴重得讓社會非常恐慌，今天報紙的頭條也看到有16縣市地方政府已經要求學校營養午餐禁止使用辣椒粉跟咖哩粉。國軍弟兄的健康也是我們高度重視的，我們也不希望外面不賣的辣椒粉跟咖哩粉變成國軍弟兄餐桌上的食材。所以本席首先要在這裡請教部長，國防部在這個食安危機的情況下，有沒有下令禁止使用辣椒粉跟咖哩粉？"],["邱部長國正：我先跟委員報告。我們國軍大概有25個副供站，還有四十多個福利站，在作業流程上，第一是一定依據政府……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我只請教您，在這部分國防部有沒有措施？有沒有下令禁止？"],["邱部長國正：有下令，只要……"],["徐委員欣瑩：已經確定也不用？"],["邱部長國正：絕對拿掉了嘛！"],["徐委員欣瑩：絕對拿掉了？很好。"],["邱部長國正：不管是福利站，都希望把它拿掉。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，本席非常關心這個問題。針對這起蘇丹紅事件，部長在這邊宣示，我們也放心。"],["邱部長國正：是的，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：第二，本席想請教部長，關於3月5日中菲南海衝突，我們看到媒體報導部長非常、非常擔憂、非常、非常憂心。這種衝突是不是可能也發生在我們臺灣的海巡與大陸海警船之間、也可能造成兩岸的衝突？部長怎麼看這件事？以您的憂心，那您怎麼看待，以及有什麼是您覺得可以努力的？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，憂心的原因在哪裡？這種案例可能隨時會發生在我們身上，我擔憂這個。但是我們又要看很多所謂「他山之石，可以攻錯。」，既然有案例，那麼要怎麼樣防處，反而也是給我們一個課題。這幾年當中，不管從俄烏戰爭也好、最近已經5個月的以巴衝突，還有現在的狀況……"],["徐委員欣瑩：可不可以簡答，您覺得接下來是不是誰應該去跟對岸降溫？您的看法怎麼樣？"],["邱部長國正：降溫不是由我們來做……"],["徐委員欣瑩：是陸委會嘛！"],["邱部長國正：但我們有做最壞的打算。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你有跟陸委會反映嗎？在橫向聯繫上有跟陸委會、在行政院院會會報上討論這件事，或是提出您的憂心嗎？"],["邱部長國正：沒有，因為這個問題還是法的問題、政治層面問題，還沒有牽涉到我這邊來。但大家都有一個共識，就是避免惡化。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是對於您的憂心，您有沒有反映？本席的問題是對於您的憂心，您有沒有跟陸委會、甚至在行政院裡表達我們應該解決這種僵化、還有解決您也提到您很擔心的惡性螺旋上升這樣的情況？"],["邱部長國正：我想，不光是我去講，大家都已經有這個共識啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：今天本席在內政委員會時，陸委會好像還沒有這種共識啊！"],["邱部長國正：大概因為他們的著眼跟我不一樣吧！"],["徐委員欣瑩：對！所以我們就發現「兩邱」的立場還有看待不同，邱主委跟邱部長的看待不同。但是我想，您在整個軍事、戰略等各方面，還有兩岸情勢的研判上有您的專業，也代表軍方，所以我們很希望您也可以做這樣的溝通，各部會之間應該有橫向的聯繫。"],["邱部長國正：部會平常在一道協調事情當然會有，但還沒有針對這個議題做這樣直接的溝通。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以對於這個政治問題，您也認為應該是陸委會要去溝通？"],["邱部長國正：不光是哪個部會，這我不管。"],["徐委員欣瑩：您不敢講？"],["邱部長國正：不是不敢講……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不好講？"],["邱部長國正：不是，如同所謂術業有專攻嘛！就是分層負責。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是，這應該考慮權責。"],["邱部長國正：對，我的權責就是怎麼強化我們的準備。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是，及早預防、準備嘛！"],["邱部長國正：對，我們能做的就是這個。"],["徐委員欣瑩：您也認同？"],["邱部長國正：我認同。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席非常欣賞。好，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請賴委員士葆發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-3","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","馬文君","陳永康","洪申翰","林楚茵","林憶君","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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11:43:33","影片長度":"00:05:52","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-3"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":352,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:43:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:37:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":669,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時37分）好，謝謝主席，我請邱部長。"],["主席：來，部長請。"],["邱部長國正：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好。今天大家應該都在問你有關於金廈海域的爭議問題，但是我這邊要直接跟部長來談，就是有關於我們國防部相關採購的問題。因為大家都知道，在去年的年底，我們不是有弟兄從艦艇上落海？在短短1個月後，我們的海軍就採購落海警示器。這個事實上不只是海軍需要，空軍、陸軍事實上都有需要，而且幾乎在同一個時間，陸軍跟空軍也都做了採購。","但是，我給部長看一下，同樣的落海警示器，當然可能你們的名字有點不一樣啦！什麼個人定位信標等等之類的，其實都是類似。在陸軍和空軍採用公開徵求、公開的採購，但是在海軍的部分採用的是限制性招標，而且以這個有「急迫性」來做限制性招標，這就有點奇怪了！三軍都有同樣的需求採購，也幾乎在同樣的時間分別地要招標，為什麼獨獨海軍要採取限制性招標？這個是一個部分。","另外，我也接獲投訴，他寫得非常非常清楚，說我們海軍採購是1萬2,000個，因為這個在媒體都有報導，是TB-520。那麼TB-520一般運轉時間是36小時，但他覺得很奇怪，我們一般不是說救難時間是72小時、「黃金72小時」？怎麼這個只有36小時？事實上，現在市面上是有時間更多的。另外更重要的是你也能看到的，右邊的是我們採購的TB-520，其官網上的採購價格跟我們事實上、實際採購價格差了大概六、七千塊錢，都是美金啦！這是用美金計。TB-520不是軍規，在網站上可以看到根本是一般商用性的。就網站上的價格，我們採購1萬2,000個，採購的價格又顯然比官網價格多很多，才讓整個採購金額多了六、七千萬。在這邊，因為我的質詢時間非常有限，我想請部長到時候問問包含陸軍、空軍，你們是怎麼採購的？為什麼你們都公開招標？我認為陸軍、空軍的程序比較正常啦！海軍的招標是怎麼回事？很多招標資訊，事實上媒體都有相關報導，當然在數量部分你們沒有對外很詳細地說明，大概是一萬多個，我接獲的爆料裡面寫得非常詳細，說是採購1萬2,000個，所以就非常質疑海軍這次採購為什麼空軍、陸軍等其他單位不一樣。部長在這邊能不能承諾我，你回去可以找他們來談，如果這裡面確實招標有問題，甚至有人謀不臧的問題，該調查就調查、該處理就處理？可不可以？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，首先很感激委員提供這些資料。事實上，國防部在做任何事情之前，累積以往經驗得到一個答案：一切一定要依法作為、作程序推動。至於這裡可能有原因，我也不是很清楚狀況，但我……"],["王委員鴻薇：事實上，我覺得如果海、陸、空都要，為什麼不可以一起採購？"],["邱部長國正：是，但也是在案子突然發生以後緊急採購，但又有一項規則。對於委員剛才所提幾個疑點，我們絕對不推諉，把問題搞清楚以後，我會請陸海空、甚至由國防部派員搞清楚，再向委員作報告。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，搞清楚之後報告。但重點是絕對不要護短喔！"],["邱部長國正：不會、不會，絕對不會。"],["王委員鴻薇：該處理就處理、該改進就要改進，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：絕對這樣。"],["王委員鴻薇：不要讓人家覺得有鬼。這一定是從你們內部傳出來的，裡面寫得非常、非常詳細。"],["邱部長國正：是。我多講一句話，國防部現在任何案子只要違法的話，我第一個動作就是送法辦，其他程序照走。送法辦的原因在哪裡？代表我們國防部不吃案。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，絕對不能吃案，這是原則問題。"],["邱部長國正：到目前為止，我有這個信心，一切要合法。謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員、邱部長，各位請回。","請徐委員欣瑩發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-3","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","馬文君","陳永康","洪申翰","林楚茵","林憶君","鄭天財Sra 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部長請王委員好好 部長好今天大概應該很多都在問你有關於驚嚇海域的爭議的問題但是呢我這邊要直接跟部長來談就是有關於"},{"start":25.41,"end":47.268,"text":"我們這個國防部相關的採購的問題因為大家都知道在去年的年底我們不是有弟兄從那個艦艇上從洛海那在短短一個月後我們的海軍就採購這個洛海警示器洛海警示器"},{"start":48.63,"end":65.908,"text":"這個事實上不只是海軍需要因為空軍陸軍事實上都有需要而且幾乎在同一個時間陸軍跟空軍也都做了採購但是我給部長看一下"},{"start":67.096,"end":96.149,"text":"同樣的這個落海警示器那當然他可能你們的名字有點不一樣啦什麼個人定位信標什麼等等之類其實都是類似在陸軍和空軍採了公開徵求公開的採購但是在海軍的部分呢採用的是限制性招標而且以說這個有急迫性有急迫性來做限制性招標"},{"start":97.54,"end":122.233,"text":"那這就有點奇怪了三軍都有同樣的需求採購也幾乎在同樣的時間分別的要招標為什麼獨獨海軍他要採取限制性招標這個是一個部分另外我也接獲投訴他寫得非常非常清楚"},{"start":123.473,"end":123.794,"text":"說我們海軍採購是一萬兩千個"},{"start":129.827,"end":157.512,"text":"那這裡採貢因為這個都已經是你們甚至都在媒體都報導是TB520那麼TB520呢他說一般的預轉時間是36小時他覺得很奇怪一般我們不說我們的救難時間是72小時黃金72小時那怎麼我們這個只有36小時因為現在市面上事實上是有這個時間更多的"},{"start":158.852,"end":173.721,"text":"另外更重要的是,你可以看到在右邊的是我們採購的TB520,他在他的官網上,他的採購的價格,跟我們事實上呢,跟我們的實際的採購價格,價格差了。"},{"start":177.059,"end":202.085,"text":"他都是美金啦他就是用美金差了大概六七千塊錢差六七千塊因為這個TB520他不是軍規他在網站上可以看到他根本是一般商用性的那所以在網站上價格比我們如果我們是採購一萬兩千個這個價格呢顯然我們是比他官網的價格多很多"},{"start":203.311,"end":231.658,"text":"所以這樣子整個的採購的金額變成是多了六七千萬所以我在這邊因為我的質詢時間非常有限我想請部長能夠到時候可以問問包含陸軍空軍你們是怎麼採購的為什麼你們都公開招標我認為陸軍空軍的程序比較正常那海軍這個招標是怎麼回事"},{"start":233.619,"end":252.937,"text":"因為很多這個招標相關的他都已經事實上媒體都有在相關的報導那當然數量的部分你們沒有對外很詳細的說明大概是一萬多個那我接獲爆料裡面寫的非常詳細他說是採購一萬兩千個就非常質疑這次採購為什麼"},{"start":254.679,"end":274.723,"text":"海軍跟其他空軍陸軍不一樣所以部長在這邊能不能承諾我你回去可以找他們來談如果這裡面確實有這個招標有問題甚至上有人模不章的問題那麼該調查就調查該處理就處理可不可以"},{"start":275.402,"end":295.657,"text":"報告委員報告,首先很感激委員提供這些資料,事實上國防部在做任何事情之前,累計以往經驗,得到一個答案,一切一定要按照依法程作為來做一個程序推動,這裡可能有原因,我也不是很清楚狀況。其實事實上我覺得海陸空如果都要的話根本不是不可以一起採購的。"},{"start":296.257,"end":297.558,"text":"對,搞清楚之後,但是重點是絕對不要護短"},{"start":319.058,"end":342.588,"text":"該處理就處理,該改進就改進,好不好?不要讓人家覺得很有鬼,不然這個一定是你們內部傳出來的,裡面寫得非常非常的詳細我跟你們報告的話,我多講一句話,我們國防部現在任何一個案子只要有違法的話我第一個動作,送法辦,其他程序照走,送法辦原因在哪裡?在我們國防部不吃案"},{"start":343.268,"end":343.408,"text":"邱國正報告業務概況"}]}},{"id":"149541","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149541","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbefd4f04cbedcc6b433ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a6530e3db8d85c974a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:31:20 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11:41:03","影片長度":"00:09:43","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":583,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:41:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:31:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":829,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時31分）謝謝主席，請王部長。"],["主席：請經濟部王部長說明。"],["王部長美花：賴委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長辛苦了，這20年來臺灣進行能源政策的轉型，我們希望降低核能，非核家園是大家朝野的共識，也立到法裡面，包括我們看到核一、核二，光國民黨執政的地方政府不管是從貯存、核廢都一直有很多的意見，所以我覺得這個大概是國家大家的高度共識，往非核家園的方向走，包括大家也希望朝降低燃煤、減少空污的方向。增加綠能不僅是臺灣的目標，也是國際的趨勢，所以現在綠能到2023年也增加到10%左右，這也是非常好的成績，我們採用的方式也是入法，也是朝野共同努力入法，採用德國躉購費率的方式，初期用比較高的費率去支持補貼，讓更多人參與進來，所以才有這麼快速的發展。當然，這個政策方向是對的，執行上面有的問題，該怎麼辦就怎麼辦，有證據、有司法的部分都在處理，當然不要把這兩個混在一起。"],["王部長美花：沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我剛剛這樣論述，部長同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["王部長美花：非常謝謝委員，非常完整，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我想這個部分要不斷的跟國人說明，這樣才不會混在一起，因為混在一起會變成沒辦法理性談論事情，這對臺灣的未來其實不是一件好事情。我們來看一下包括台電遇到什麼問題，最關鍵的，你看電價從過去以來，其實國民黨時代也一樣有漲有跌，但是民進黨政府的時代儘量努力在控制，當然部長的報告裡面也有提到，但是現在遇到最大的變數就是俄烏戰爭，包括部長報告的結論也提到，俄烏戰爭造成國際燃料價格暴漲，這大概是虧損主因，所以政府這段時間也做了很多撥補。台電是國營事業，台電虧損就是國家虧損，就是老百姓整體的虧損，這個問題我們當然要去面對解決，不能讓台電持續虧損。當原料取得價格跟售出有落差的時候，當然要適度調整，甚至很多用電大戶，包括半導體產業發展得很好、賺很多錢，但是它的電卻可能還要國家去補貼，我們進的成本可能是4塊錢，但可能只賣3塊，這1塊的成本由台電、由人民來吸收，這其實是不公平的，部長同意吧！這些問題應該要這樣來解決吧！"],["王部長美花：是，相關的部分都會一起整體來考量。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我看到你的報告其實也提到反映成本是一個關鍵性的因素，我們來看一下，臺灣的電價跟世界各國比，不管是住宅、工業，其實都算是控制在一個比較低的狀況。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以看得出來政府的努力，希望控制電價，但確實是因為整個戰爭的衝突，造成價格漲了之後，虧損確實也造成一定的影響，我覺得台電也努力了，我們持續爭取撥補，我第一個想問的是，部長在報告裡面也提到結論第一點是將優先爭取政府的補助。部長，這個有沒有提出請求了？"],["王部長美花：有，我們有跟院裡面請求。"],["賴委員瑞隆：多少金額？1,000億元？還是1,500億元？"],["王部長美花：這個部分院裡面在設算。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長你覺得呢？總是要讓大家知道，因為接下來要處理的是電價審議，審議在談這件事情總是要先看到政府在這件事情的決心，在我的角度上面，我認為比較賺錢的，這應該要由他們來補，不應該由國家來出這個錢。但是對於民生甚至可能造成物價波動的這一塊，應該由國家再幫點忙，我認為國家撥補是在補這一塊，補民生、補一般的小老百姓，甚至可能會影響到物價波動的這一塊。部長，政府在這一塊做了什麼努力？至少超過1,000億元的爭取吧！"],["王部長美花：是，我們希望爭取1,000億元以上，現在院裡面正在設算。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果能到1,500億元更好，我覺得這也是政府的一個態度，如果政府也一樣出來之後，未來對於用電比較多的也調整價格，我覺得一般老百姓的接受度會好一些。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：其實剛剛也提到用電大戶的部分，如果我們不做一些處理其實也不合理，你看我們之前撥補過後，整個電價才達到3.95元，如果沒有算撥補的錢，其實成本等於4.17元，特高壓這一塊有很多是半導體產業，基本上這幾年的獲利都相當不錯，它卻占到我們34%的售電量，等於這701戶用掉了793億度電，占34%，如果它沒有合理調整，而由人民負擔，我認為這確實也不公平，我也認為它們應該也願意來承擔這個，不然電的成本明明就這麼高，卻要由國家來補貼你。部長，這個方向是……"],["王部長美花：是，委員的意見我們都會一起來評估，拿給審議會來參考。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外一個大家關切的當然是對民生的影響，包括像現在CPI是1.85%，大家預估如果漲10%的話，大概會再增加0.12%，大概到2%左右。我先問一下部長，2%這樣的數字就全球和臺灣來看是怎樣的數字？"],["王部長美花：2%事實上對全世界來講相對還是比較穩定的情形。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以政府一直有在注意這件事情。"],["王部長美花：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我想這也要不斷的讓人民知道，我們一方面在抓著國家大的整體政策方向，讓台電永續經營；一方面對於民生物價的影響，我們也很努力關切著，控制在一個好的範圍內，這件事情我也希望未來電價審議委員會能夠充分討論，對於整個未來民生的物價波動會產生的影響，如果照現在所有可能的狀況，我舉例，例如民生的用戶330度以下有可能漲的話，這個金額大概是多少？1個月是30塊？35塊？40塊？是這樣左右的金額嗎？"],["王部長美花：委員剛剛有問過，假設是用120度以下的部分，假設漲5%，1個月是增加9塊錢。"],["賴委員瑞隆：1個月增加9塊錢？"],["王部長美花：對。如果是330度的部分，1個月是增加34塊錢。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望不斷的讓外界知道，因為有時候講百分比率，大家好像會很緊張。"],["王部長美花：比較不了解狀況。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果講金額的話，也許大家會了解影響層面大概多大、多少人會受到影響，這是第一個。另外當然是對物價間的波動會產生什麼樣的影響，因為可能還會有間接或延遲性的效果產生，當整個整體性都思考到，也跟人民做了說明，我相信人民比較會理解政府現在的作為。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：剛也提到核電的部分，看來不是一個好處理的，包括朝野之間也都有非核家園的共識，我想核電應該不是我們現在處理這件事情的好方案。"],["王部長美花：核電的部分，第一個是有法規的問題。第二個，誠如委員講的，我們目前是希望它用到40年的年限，並沒有提早，但是核一的電廠和核二的電廠都是因為燃料池滿了，都提早要停機。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就像剛剛講到的，新北市政府也都停了。"],["王部長美花：所以大家對於核電的使用還是有不同的意見。"],["賴委員瑞隆：更何況核廢料、核安的部分，大家還是有一定的疑慮。"],["王部長美花：安全的部分是一個最大的關切點。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，而且它只是沒有把相關的成本納入，如果把那些成本大量算進來，恐怕它付出的代價是相當龐大的。"],["王部長美花：都要一起算在內。"],["賴委員瑞隆：綠電的部分我倒是要再提一下，2023年臺灣的再生能源總發電量268億度，這是一個很不錯的成績，這幾年大家努力推展，我也希望部長在各方面大家都要不斷去推動，綠電是一個趨勢，也是一個方向。"],["王部長美花：其實大電力用戶一直希望我們再生能源再增加，因為他們未來到2030年的時候，需要的綠電增加非常多。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我想國際都喜歡綠電，也是一個很正向的，甚至未來我們2050也是朝淨零碳排的目標，也希望經濟部要加大推動的力道，同時也要加強對社會各界的說明，不要被污名化，綠電不應該被污名化，謝謝部長。"],["王部長美花：是，沒有錯。"],["主席（陳委員超明代）：現在請洪委員申翰質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra 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請往往部長"},{"start":12.828,"end":32.894,"text":"部長辛苦了我想還是要先從這個這20年來其實台灣在進行一個能源政策的一個轉型當然我們核能我們希望降低這個非核價也是大家草野的共識也到立到了法裡面包括我們看到合一合二的光執政的國民黨的這個地方政府也是在"},{"start":33.595,"end":33.615,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":49.497,"end":79.497,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":79.517,"end":80.658,"text":"對台灣的未來其實不是一件好事情"},{"start":95.891,"end":119.669,"text":"那我們來看一下現在台電包括我們遇到了什麼樣的一個問題其實最關鍵的你看這個電價過去以來其實在國民黨時代一樣有漲有跌都有但是民黨政府的時代其實也是但是這樣努力在控制剛剛部長的報告裡也有提到但是現在遇到的最大的一個大概就是這二屋戰爭包括部長的報告裡面的結論也提到了"},{"start":120.029,"end":149.1,"text":"而物戰爭造成了這個國際的燃料價格暴漲這個還是虧損主因虧損主因那所以政府這段時間也做了很多的一些撥補那臺電是國營事業臺電虧損就是國家虧損就是老百姓整整體的虧損所以這個問題當然我們要去面對解決我們也不能夠讓臺電持續的虧損那當這個價格原料取得價格跟整個售出有這樣的一個落差的時候當然要適度不然對於"},{"start":150.621,"end":152.382,"text":"是,我們這個相關的部分都會一起整體來做考量"},{"start":176.853,"end":202.487,"text":"那我也看到你的報告裡面其實也提到了其實我看到你甚至於反映成本是你的一個關鍵性的因素我們來看一下其實在台灣的這個電價的部分其實跟其他世界各國比不管是住宅、工業其實都算是相當控制在一個比較低的狀況所以看到出來其實政府的一個努力希望控制那但是確實是因為整個戰爭的衝突造成價格的漲了之後"},{"start":204.728,"end":223.526,"text":"那虧損確實也造成了一定的影響那台電很努力啦我就認為努力我們持續的爭取了撥補那我第一個也想問啦因為部長的報告裡也提到你的結論第一點將優先來爭取政府的補助是那部長這個有沒有提出請求了有有我們有跟院長請求多少的金額1000億還是1500億"},{"start":226.387,"end":250.558,"text":"這個部分院裡面在涉算那部長你提出來就總是讓大家知道就是說因為接下來要處理的是電價審議了那審議在談這件事情總是先看到政府在這件事情的決心嘛在我的角度上面我認為比較賺錢的或者是高這個應該由他們來補啦你不應該由國家來幫你出這個錢但是對於民生甚至有可能會造成物價波動的這一塊應該由國家再多幫點忙"},{"start":251.378,"end":262.391,"text":"我認為國家在撥補是在補這一塊補民生、補一般的小老百姓可能會影響到甚至物價的波動的那這一塊部長這一塊我們政府做什麼努力至少超過一千億的爭取吧"},{"start":263.762,"end":284.883,"text":"是,我們是希望有1000億以上的爭取,那現在月裡面正在射算,如果能到1500億更好,就是說我覺得這也是一個政府的態度,如果政府也一樣出來之後,那未來如果再對於這些用電比較多的也用它的這個價格做一些的話,我覺得這個一般老百姓的接受度上會來得比較好一些。"},{"start":286.304,"end":298.132,"text":"再來我也請教,剛剛也提到用電大戶的部分如果我們不做一些處理的話其實不合理你看幾乎我們之前都還撥補夠了以後這個整個電價才到了3.95那如果沒有算這個撥補的錢其實成本等於4.17"},{"start":305.556,"end":321.761,"text":"幾乎你看我們特高壓這一塊也很多的半導體產業基本上這幾年的獲利狀況都相當不錯那確實它卻占到了我們34%的一個售電的部分那等於一塊錢幾乎是700戶這些701戶的用掉了793億度的電占34%那如果它沒有去合理的調整這些的話等於由人民來負擔我認為這個確實也不公平"},{"start":332.424,"end":353.75,"text":"我也認為他們也應該也願意來承擔這個要不然你電明明成本就這麼高卻要由國家來補貼你所以部長這個方向是我們都會一起來做委員的意見都會一起來評估拿給審議會來做參考那另外一個當然大家關切的是他對於民生的一個影響包括像現在的CPI的部分到"},{"start":356.091,"end":383.431,"text":"1.85那大家預估如果漲10%的話大概會再增加0.12那大概到2左右那我先問一下部長2這樣的數字的話對在全球跟台灣來看來是一個什麼樣的數字2%事實上對全世界來講相對還是比較穩定的一個情形所以政府一直有在注意這件事情我覺得這個也要不斷的讓人民知道我們一方面在抓著國家的大的整體政策方向"},{"start":384.953,"end":400.735,"text":"讓電力讓台電整體永續經營但一方面對於民生物價的影響我們也很努力在關切著控制在一個好的範圍內不要造成那這件事情我也希望在未來電價審議委員會也要充分的去討論對於整個未來的民生"},{"start":401.015,"end":420.811,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":421.352,"end":431.121,"text":"委員剛剛有問過啦假設是用這個120度以下的這個部分他如果假設是漲5%他一個月是增加9塊錢增加9塊錢對那如果是330度的部分那一個月是增加34塊錢好"},{"start":439.209,"end":457.246,"text":"就是我蠻希望不斷的讓外界知道因為有時候講那個趴數大家好像會也會很緊張比較不了解狀況是什麼樣但如果講那個金額的部分的話也許大家了解大概是影響層面是多大然後多少人會受到影響當然這個是它第一個另外當然是對於物價間的波動就是它會產生什麼樣影響因為有可能還有"},{"start":457.466,"end":485.401,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":485.755,"end":485.915,"text":"賴瑞隆議員"},{"start":504.91,"end":509.852,"text":"都提早要停機就像剛剛講到了嘛對新北市政府大家其實對一些核電的使用還是有不同的意見他不是一個我們現在的更何況核廢料更何況核安的部分安全的部分是一個最大的關切點而且他只是把相關的成本沒有並沒有那個如果把那些成本大量算進來恐怕他一付出大概就是相當龐大的都要一起"},{"start":529.099,"end":545.861,"text":"所以我覺得這一塊應該不是這一個那綠電的部分我導師也要再提一下我覺得2023年的時候台灣的再生能源總發電268億度這是一個很很不錯的一個成就這幾年來大家努力來推展那我也希望部長也希望"},{"start":546.882,"end":555.991,"text":"大家都要不斷的去那個綠電是一個趨勢也是一個方向其實大電力用戶一直希望我們那個再生能源再增加因為他們未來到2030年的時候這個需要的這個綠電增加的非常多"},{"start":561.596,"end":561.756,"text":"謝謝部長 辛苦 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149540","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149540","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe7834ffceac921c2aa2c0e3c4ee948455f8ba9b0039caa7a6530e3db8d85c974a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:29:02 - 11:39:34","影片長度":"00:10:32","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":632,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:39:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:29:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":510,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時29分）主席好，有請院長，院長辛苦了。"],["主席：請院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：郭委員早。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想故宮是我們很重要的一個文化聖殿，去年我們可以看到雖然國旅已經開始回復到疫情之前的一個盛況，但是故宮可能還要再加把勁，這個我們待會再談。我先來談關於新故宮計畫，它是為了改善整個修護的空間，當然文物對我們來講是最重要的資產，在2022年我們也很遺憾的在文物當中有很少很少的部分，可能因為本身在搬運、保存或是在所有移動的過程當中產生了一些文物保存的問題。今年我們也聽說要改成所謂的一物一盒，改箱為櫃這樣子，我自己在做袖珍藝術，我對自己本身的作品要再加上保存，包含空間的除溼、放在什麼樣的溫度、什麼樣的燈光，其實我自己本身就算是做袖珍藝術也都很在意這些事情，那更何況是我們這樣子的歷史古物。請問我們是不是有比較明確的保存古物安全標準？制定的作業流程又是如何？今年我們有沒有做這方面的全面改善？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，故宮發生了所謂的破瓷事件之後，我們把所有典藏管理的規則跟庫房進出的規則統統做了一次翻新，加強整個管理機制。改箱為櫃的部分或是一物一盒的話，在新故宮計畫裡面雖然約略提到，可是沒有很具體的做法。我到了之後，去盤整整個空間，因為改箱為櫃會增加很多空間，以目前來講，故宮的3棟庫房還有一千多箱的文物在裡面，如果改箱為櫃，現在的空間是沒有辦法容納的，所以我們在山下的行政園區新蓋了一個行政大樓，未來會把跟典藏文物及展服不相關的同仁都遷到山下來辦公，然後把山上空間、地下室的部分盡可能改為標準庫房，這樣就可以讓這些山洞裡的文物可以得到標準庫房的待遇，對整個文物的保存會有比較好的一個……"],["郭委員昱晴：比較好的措施。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，比較好的環境、措施。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，那這個環境、措施預計什麼時候可以完工？"],["蕭院長宗煌：目前來講，我們在去年增聘了一位同仁，他從英國回來，因為有大英博物館典藏庫房的經驗，所以現在他在做規劃。目前我們會開始試做一物一盒的盒子，因為原來是採用藍布盒子，藍布盒子在臺灣已經沒有老匠師了，變成要去大陸製作，可是大陸製作的品質非常不理想。所以現在我們想說用新式博物館的概念，以無酸紙盒來代替傳統的藍布盒子，現在正在進行這樣的規劃。"],["郭委員昱晴：另外一個部分就是關於古物修復的工作，故宮將近70萬件的文件，應該這麼講，包含古物和典藏，目前聽說只有4類的修復室，這4類的修復室當中又包含了修復師的人員配置。我們知道修復方面的專業人員一定都是上上之選，當然也經過很嚴格的挑選，我想人員的養成並不容易，但是我們看到修復師總共才16人，是這樣子的一個編制嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上這樣的編制在國內的博物館已經是最大的編制了，因為國內的博物館如果有辦法配置專業的修復師的話，其它的博物館都不在5人之上，所以故宮基本上來講，在整個人力調配上目前的人數是這樣。"],["郭委員昱晴：他們一年當中要修復的都是將近上百件，我們可以從表格看到，光去年就修復了753件次，是嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，沒有錯，平均一個人的修復數量是47件，其實有的文物修復或是檢視很快，但是有的文物一修，等待時間可能就是一、兩個禮拜，甚至一個月都需要。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，因為我們大概知道所有的典藏文物，包含書畫、歷史文獻、紡織、玉器、銅器、瓷器，還有其它的一些不同材質都需要不同專業領域的修復師，目前臺灣其實在這方面的人才培養，在大學裡頭的相關科系的大概有哪些？我們是不是也已經從這個地方開始著手修復師的培養、培訓？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，在表列裡面，國內真正可以培養修護人才的是南藝大的博物館學與古物維護研究所，因為它培養出來的人才可以馬上進到博物館來使用，其它館所所謂的文資大部分都是歷史建築或是古蹟方面，真正的文物修復現在大概就是南藝大是最強的。另外正修科大有一個修復中心，修復中心自己培養的人才基本上擁有實務經驗，其實也是很強的一個團隊。"],["郭委員昱晴：這個新聞其實我也有看到，只是我們沒有表列在其中，我們也鼓勵很多的青年朋友，如果將來能夠投入到修護師的工作，我們是滿樂見的，可以跟教育界結合。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，在南院國寶館，也就是南院的第二展覽館裡面，我們有特別規劃一個完整的修護空間，這個修護空間除了文物修護及織品修護之外，我們會跟南藝大建教合作，讓南藝大的學生可以進到博物館來，進行他們的專業歷程。"],["郭委員昱晴：有沒有可能也跟國外一些博物館的修護師或者美術館的修護師來做一個比較頻繁性的交流？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上當然有，我們有跟英國的諾桑比亞大學和美國的德拉瓦大學都有進行短期的文物教育研習訓練。另外我們跟日本大阪市立陶瓷美術館也有請他們來協助我們做文物持拿、文物保存的訓練。"],["郭委員昱晴：接下來我想要請教的是，在疫情過後我們當然也希望人潮可以慢慢的回流，我相信有很多人其實已經都出國去旅遊了，但是在我們整個所有的參觀人次上面，去年的統計是155萬左右的人次，相較於前幾年是大不如於以往，這個部分我們是不是在今年有什麼可以往前的目標？"],["蕭院長宗煌：今年的目標我們是希望北院250萬人次，南院100萬人次，總共350萬人次，後續的話希望繼續提升。剛才有委員提到新故宮計畫完成之後，我們的目標值是800萬人次，當時這個目標值的估計可能比較樂觀一點，從500萬加到800萬好像很快，我們最低的時候好像是41萬，到800萬是一個很長的距離，可是我相信故宮會超越我們原來的五百多萬人次，800萬人次我不敢講，但新故宮計畫完成之後，500萬人次一定沒有問題。"],["郭委員昱晴：其實我希望不是只有國外的訪客來，我們光是自己國內本身很多的單位或是學校團體，也能夠做更多的交流跟教育的工作，讓他們去導覽，我相信這對故宮也是一件好事。","另外是跟國外、國際接軌，今年預計跟哪一些國際單位有所謂的互相交流跟借展的活動是目前可以確定被進行的？"],["蕭院長宗煌：今年確定的2個展覽活動，一個是故宮北院、梵克雅寶跟法國裝置藝術博物館合作的「大美不言」，另外一個是在南院辦的沖繩月的「萬國津梁：東亞海上的琉球」，這兩個展覽。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以我們將在近期可以看到這個部分互相的交流跟機會，對不對？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，我們會跟法國和日本的不同單位、不同博物館交流合作。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，但是在交流的同時也要注意我們古物的保存。"],["蕭院長宗煌：這是必要的一個條件。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝院長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員，謝謝院長。","接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","陳冠廷"],"page_start":323,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130801_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.7565937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.629093750000001,"end":7.1353437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.45596875,"end":9.801593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.09221875,"end":14.290343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.99909375,"end":33.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.017218750000005,"end":34.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.08471875,"end":40.564718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.73346875,"end":41.391593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.627843750000004,"end":43.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.838468750000004,"end":54.351593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.43596875,"end":61.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.35471875,"end":86.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.51534375,"end":103.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.06534375000001,"end":179.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.06596875000002,"end":182.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.75784375,"end":185.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.02346875,"end":183.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.28471875000002,"end":189.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.63909375,"end":185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end":330.559,"text":"對,沒有錯。平均的話就是一個人的修復數量的話是47件所以其實有的文物修復或是檢視的話很快但是有的文物的話一修可能他的等待時間的話就是一兩個禮拜甚至上一個月都需要"},{"start":331.42,"end":358.198,"text":"因為我們大概知道其實我們整個所有的典藏的文物包含書畫、歷史文獻、紡織、玉器、銅器、瓷器還有其他的一些不同的材質他們有需要不同的一個專業的領域的修護師那目前台灣其實在這方面的人才的培養在大學裡頭相關科系的大概有哪一些我們是不是也從這個地方已經開始在著手這些修護師的一些培訓"},{"start":359.679,"end":388.655,"text":"根委員報告就是表列裡面的話其實真正的國內可以培養修復人才的話是那個南藝大的博物館及古物修復研究所因為他真的培養出來的人才的話可以馬上進到博物館來使用其他的管所的所謂的文資的話大部分都是歷史建築或是古蹟方面真正的古物修復的話大概就是南藝大現在是最強的"},{"start":389.155,"end":404.172,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":404.472,"end":432.224,"text":"我希望其實就是我們也鼓勵很多的我們的青年朋友們如果能夠將來可以投入到這樣子的一個修護室的一個工作其實是我們蠻樂見的就跟教育界的結合跟委員報告在南岩的那個國報館就南岩的第二展覽館裡面我們有特別規劃一個完整的一個修護空間這個修護空間的話基本上除了文物修護之外製品修護之外的話我們會跟南藝大建教合作"},{"start":436.348,"end":445.178,"text":"有沒有可能也跟國外的一些博物館的修護師或者是美術館的修護師有來做一個這樣子的一個比較平凡性的交流?"},{"start":446.658,"end":472.367,"text":"基本上當然有啦就是我們有跟那個英國的諾桑比亞大學跟美國的德拉克拉瓦大學都有進行這樣的一個文物短期的就是一個教育研習訓練那另外的話我們跟那個日本的那個大阪市立陶瓷美術館也有請他們來協助我們做文物持拿文物保存的一個訓練"},{"start":474.748,"end":503.147,"text":"稍後我想要請教的就是因為其實在疫情過後我們當然也希望人潮可以慢慢的回流我相信有很多人其實已經都出國去旅遊了但是其實在我們的整個所有的參觀人次上面其實我們在去年的統計是155萬左右的一個人次當然相較於前幾年是大不如以往那這個部分其實我們是不是也在今年有什麼樣的一個目標其實是可以往前"},{"start":503.387,"end":503.626,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":504.441,"end":533.303,"text":"今年目標我們當然是希望北院250萬南院100萬然後總共350萬那後續的話我們希望繼續的提升因為剛剛也有委員提到就是說新故宮計畫完成之後我們的目標值是800萬當然這個目標值的估計可能當時比較樂觀一點就從500萬加到800萬好像很快現在的話從我們最低的時候是11萬要到800萬是一個很長的距離"},{"start":533.983,"end":562.088,"text":"可是我相信故宮會超越我們原來的五百多萬的人次我想八百萬我不敢講但是新故宮計畫完成之後五百萬一定沒有問題其實我希望就是不是只有國外的這個訪客來啦其實我們在光是自己本身國內的很多的單位或者是學校的團體其實也能夠做更多的一些交流跟教育的一個工作讓他們去導覽我覺得這個相信也是對故宮是一些好事喔那"},{"start":563.666,"end":587.286,"text":"另外就是在跟國外國際接軌我們現在在今年預計跟哪一些國際的單位有所謂的互相交流跟借展的一個活動是目前確定可以被進行的今年確定了兩個展覽活動的話一個是北院放課雅寶那法國裝飾藝術博物館然後跟故宮合作的"},{"start":588.827,"end":591.488,"text":"所以我們也將在近期都可以看到這個部分的互相的一個交流跟機會對不對"},{"start":616.015,"end":616.796,"text":"謝謝院長,謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"149539","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149539","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe5062b51b49e93351dc62c46c87ca327ff8ba9b0039caa7a6b52d3f1a881be2f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:32:03 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能我說這是你說的嘛就是說希望儘快三讀通過可以就是遏止就是說相關的網路上面的詐騙但是喔其實這只是臉書的只是一環其實我們的簡訊手機也是還是收到這樣子的連結啊我也常常收到啊是不是也許我們就是我其實就是不理或者怎麼樣可是一般的民眾呢還有我們就提到了有數位落差嘛"},{"start":282.29,"end":297.421,"text":"有一些人是有一些的民眾是有數位落差的有一些的中高領者對於數位落差可能又更高那這個部分根本都沒有相關的就是說作為啊是不是才會導致民眾認為詐騙依然很多"},{"start":302.925,"end":325.488,"text":"回答委員的詢詢其實像台水、台電或假冒公部門的這個之前是非常猖獗那這部分我們推出111之後用這樣子來詐騙成功的就大幅減少因為大家知道不是111假的這是一個另外一個是說很多接到詐騙簡訊在一年前的狀態是說他到某個店商買了東西然後透過物流或什麼有人掌握到說"},{"start":326.088,"end":346.627,"text":"他現在買了這本書或者是這個商品然後他馬上傳個簡訊說解除分期付款失敗啊什麼的那因為他裡面會提到這個具體的電話號碼跟什麼時候要送到你家所以這個時候他很容易取信於人那這部分我們也透過讓這個大的電商都導入所謂物流銀碼就是你的手機號碼不會再提供給物流了的這個方式到現在已經基本杜絕這個狀況"},{"start":348.86,"end":372.579,"text":"對阿我是說這是你目前認知的情況但是跟民眾認知的情況還是有一段的差距我覺得假冒名人的廣告這個是現在民怨最大的地方除了假冒我是說除了假冒名人以外其實很多還是我還是常常收到那個還是有很多別的啦當然雖然說有一些時候那個我們的手機號碼會告訴你說喔這可能是詐騙的"},{"start":373.72,"end":395.058,"text":"但是很多的部分在投資或者是在就是相關的貸款等等的還是層出不窮這才會是就是民眾認為詐騙依然存在民眾對於政府打詐的成效不彰以及大家認為說各部門都覺得自己做得很好那為什麼"},{"start":395.759,"end":395.819,"text":"謝委員發言完畢"}]}},{"id":"149536","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149536","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe914e5d8232f3a9e4afe835f95dd6e817f8ba9b0039caa7a6f8c22822b047f7c05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:13:06 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包括剛剛有提到的資安我們訴發部的立場是什麼樣"},{"start":123.722,"end":125.444,"text":"所以您認為在資安上面我們現行的設計是沒有問題的?"},{"start":144.794,"end":166.021,"text":"在資安方面其實我們現在用自然人憑證在國際上我們是算有EID的國家就是因為有自然人憑證那我們當然對於自然人憑證以及現在APP行動自然人憑證的資安這個當然我們跟內政部是用最高規格去看待現在只是說這個個資大家希望一個獨立的個資會確保那這裡面有我們書發部的這個角色嗎"},{"start":166.838,"end":186.31,"text":"當然我們是資安的主責機關啊但是各自會是獨立的獨立機關的意思就是不會預算變到我們不會變到你們這邊但是在成立這個算各自會的過程當中還是需要我們訴發部的一個協助我有特別就是指定我們的行政法人資安院在技術上面各自會所有需要協助資安院就好我們這邊還是要拜託我們訴發部喔"},{"start":187.631,"end":213.344,"text":"在成立這個後續身分證的這個各自委員會的上面我們也要多用點心因為現在我們國家還在每個每年要花費6300萬去做這個設備的維護拖一天工廠就浪費了20萬那再拜託我們的數發部是那之前還有民間的訴求是內政部應該用一個專法明定說如果不是用數位不想用數位的他不會因此喪失什麼權益那這部分可能就要請內政部"},{"start":214.284,"end":239.095,"text":"那大家一起加油那這個考察的部分雖然說這個相較之下我們的金額比較少啦但是也不是沒有這個可以檢討的空間那我肯定我們剛剛有提供的報告包括去年度跟今年度要預計的這個出國考察嘛那在考察的數量上面我先說經費啦去年是1408萬嘛對不對那今年大概是3000變3000多3700然後被砍了600嘛對不對所以原則上預算是增倍的嘛對不對"},{"start":244.544,"end":264.111,"text":"但因為業務也是增備啊可是我們看我們的考察的這個會議數量去年只有大概28個會議的場次那如果說預算增備的話那我們要參加的會議的場次應該也是要相對應接近兩倍但是我們看今年的計畫我們目前只有安排34場只有從28變成34但是我們的經費"},{"start":268.132,"end":293.79,"text":"我們不算你原本編列的啦就是被砍過被砍過了我們是正面的情況下我們只增加六場怎麼那麼多的預算先跟委員說明有一些他是多個不同的就是機關包含像資安署、數產署等等在資安相關的因為分成就是關鍵基礎跟公部門資安的部分資安研究的部分還有資安產業的部分所以同一個這個會議本來可能只有一小部分人參加那現在會變成比較多人參加這第一個"},{"start":294.39,"end":310.826,"text":"第二個是說我們也發現到包含這個機票的這個油料的費用啊等等這個是他實際上是有調升啦所以這部分也有調升那最後就是說我們真正的新興業務委員看到如果是一場經貿談判或是跟對方互訪等等其實一個談判後面是有非常多場會議喔"},{"start":311.887,"end":337.121,"text":"所以我只是提醒部長我相信公家單位的使用經費絕對有相關的包括自己部門包括城市機關的積合但是既然我們經費增加了一倍但是我們參訪數量卻只增加了六場那大家會認為他在使用上面的合理性我們有沒有浪費工廠是不是從原本的商務艙變頭等艙還是住的飯店要變高級這個是可能單純我們在書面上面看到會懷疑的部分那所以後續可能相關的"},{"start":338.642,"end":353.318,"text":"這個成果還是要跟我們的國安來做說明的報告另外一個請教一個比較專業的問題啦你的部長認為我們國家在未來資安風險上面遇到最大的挑戰會是什麼當然是深層SAI深層SAI"},{"start":354.69,"end":377.416,"text":"深層式AI?所以你認為深層式AI會對資安系統有破壞?因為現在很多的供給它是好像遙控一樣它要有一個人在後面去操縱但是深層式AI它就好像把一個黑帽駭客放到我們的電腦網路裡它自己在這邊用現有的工具自己想出怎麼供給它完全不需要外面遙控那這個的狀態完全不一樣"},{"start":378.052,"end":407.332,"text":"因為現在包括我們的資安尤其是銀行的啦那一些資安的一些要破解可能都是要花現行的電腦啦可能都是要花上千年的一個時間的這個運轉的效率才有可能破解嘛那大家現在比較擔心的事情是一件事情就是量子電腦的誕生我們對於現今資安系統的建制如果說未來有任何敵對的國家他發展出了量子電腦他發展出來可以運用絕對不會跟你講嘛"},{"start":408.112,"end":425.613,"text":"對不對就像當初這個二戰的時候這個密碼戰的時候一定是先建立好了之後擷取你的很多情報等到你被發現的時候你已經受到了很大的傷害那我們國家對於將來量子電腦如果真的誕生了那我們國安的這個治安要我們怎麼預防"},{"start":427.592,"end":453.58,"text":"我們的研究人員其實一直都積極的來參與包含美國在內制定叫後量子密碼學就是不怕量子電腦的加密方式的包含標準的制定啊等等這個我們都積極的參與所以我想這個還有一段時間不像現在現在就很大的威脅了在未來的幾年裡面我們會更新我們的系統到即使量子電腦研發出來他也不能回溯把他們攔截的這些加密訊息加以破解就是導入後量子密碼這個非常重要"},{"start":453.84,"end":480.344,"text":"所以部長的意思是說現在我們已經有正視到的這個問題那有在相關的討論當中了但是目前還沒有明確的方案出來他需要一個國際標準包含怎麼樣是跟國際的廠商用相同的標準一起導入所以是不只我們的政府部門包括將來商業的部門可能會有一套防範電子電腦的一個就是後端電子密碼學好那這部分在一樣我們國內絕對是不能夠落後於國際的絕對不會落後好以上這個謝謝部長那今天的時間到這邊謝謝部長謝謝召委"}]}},{"id":"149535","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149535","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe1382ae2ee9a7ab41afe835f95dd6e817f8ba9b0039caa7a6ecfde8b3afd21a0f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:02:11 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11:12:49","影片長度":"00:10:38","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":638,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:12:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:02:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":450,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時2分）主席好，大家好，請唐部長。"],["主席：請唐部長。"],["唐部長鳳：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長好，第一次在質詢台上請教。這些年來，其實沒有什麼特別的機會可以在質詢台上說這些事，但是和蔡總統、行政院開會時經常提到。其實本席長期以來對三件事情非常關心，就是臺灣的新三害，這三害幾乎已經到了大家深惡痛絕、天怒人怨的地步，本席已經找不出形容詞，可以形容它這幾年對臺灣的危害，新三害就是詐騙、認知作戰和網路犯罪，部長也很清楚。"],["唐部長鳳：確實，完全同意。"],["蔡委員其昌：本席知道很多人對你有所批評，包括媒體，本席認為部分是因為政府分工架構的問題，而且因為這是新型態的新三害，所以我們過去的工具也不是很完備，以部會的職責分工來說，過去傳統的分類方式很難有系統、有效率的面對、處置新三害。本席也知道你有做一些努力，包括調整方法等等，本席可以理解你的苦處，但是本席覺得人民沒有辦法等待。"],["唐部長鳳：當然，政府是一體的啦！"],["蔡委員其昌：這是事實。"],["唐部長鳳：我們一成立，很多受害者就直接找我們報案，要我們派人去調查、當檢察官，這是不可能的，所以我們必須建立相關機制，讓檢警調可以快速作業。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有錯。但人民沒有辦法等待，所以他就罵政府，有時候你就會首當其衝變成箭靶，而且政府的確也有強烈需要檢討的部分。雖然有一些委屈，但是本席認為政府不能談委屈，我們要談的是怎麼解決問題，所以你提出的，包括電子簽章法，本席非常支持。"],["唐部長鳳：當然。謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為它等於一定程度的實名制，特別是廣告方面。還有歸整業務，例如原來經濟部管的業務移到數發部，這部分本席也很支持。"],["唐部長鳳：我們主動承擔。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，這個本席也很支持。除了這個之外，其實在防範方面，你也應該有所發揮一點你最厲害的創意。過去我們有很多措施，包括疫情期間透過科技的方式造福大家，提出讓效率提升的方法，而且還能防範疫情，其實很多方面大家對你都很稱讚。所以在面對所謂的詐騙、認知作戰和網路犯罪時，其實還可以有很多創意的作為，你也可以認真想一想。"],["唐部長鳳：有的。"],["蔡委員其昌：本席不是科技專才，但是在陳院長、蘇院長的時代，本席和他們開會時都提過，例如過去還沒有電子簽章時，大家對檢舉達人的印象是很負面的，例如一個檢舉達人一年可能可以檢舉上萬件交通違規，本席是希望檢舉達人在檢舉網路詐騙時，也可以檢舉兩萬件、三萬件，這樣政府應該要頒獎給他。"],["唐部長鳳：165專線現在有一個專門檢舉的網頁。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，但本席覺得那個網頁還是不太方便。有沒有可能再簡便一點？例如我們在網路上看到謝金河在招收會員，其實謝金河本人也很頭痛，每天都在罵這類的廣告，因為他一直澄清都沒有用。如果看到這樣的訊息，是否可以立刻使用手機，用一個很簡單的方式反映？不用再打165專線，也不用再寫email，直接點選就可以檢舉。"],["唐部長鳳：對。我剛才提的是165專線的網站，包含截圖檢舉，或是利用165專線的LINE檢舉，這上面都有介紹，會後我再提供給委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：本席的意思是說，還有沒有更簡便的方式？你們有沒有可能研發看看？本席不知道你們能不能做到。"],["唐部長鳳：更簡便的方式其實就是電子簽章法。我最近也看到很多例子，例如Google現在開始在做所謂的實名制，但是有些人登記的名字和名人的名字就差一個字，但是聲音一樣，所以就能混過去，事實上他不可能真的叫這個名字，這就是有沒有數位簽章的差別。"],["蔡委員其昌：這一點本席知道，這是過去沒有電子簽章的狀況，本席提的，現在有電子簽章了，那我們就可以在源頭控管。"],["唐部長鳳：這樣就不用再檢舉了。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，因為實名嘛！本席只是舉這個例子解釋創意很重要。例如我們知道簡訊詐騙的部分主要是由NCC負責，但因為簡訊詐騙會連結網路，所以又和數發部扯上關係。"],["唐部長鳳：所以現在NCC的做法就是如果有附網址，但是網址沒有註冊，就乾脆不讓你發大宗簡訊。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，你們應該也要想一些方式因應。"],["唐部長鳳：有，我們有聯防。"],["蔡委員其昌：本席以前就提過，現在有111短碼簡訊嘛！"],["唐部長鳳：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：其實不只這樣，本席覺得大型的企業，例如銀行，因為我們最常接到銀行的簡訊，他們是真的要通知你一些訊息，可是自從這幾年詐騙猖獗之後，本席都教導老人家不要看，反正銀行要你辦的業務，本來就是要直接找到你才能辦。這麼一來，我們的產業發這類型訊息的效率就變得極低，為什麼？因為我們也沒辦法，老人家沒有辦法判別，所以乾脆叫媽媽都不要打開簡訊，可是有時候真的是銀行通知他辦什麼業務，這時候卻讓簡訊變得無效。","本席的意思是說，除了111短碼簡訊之外，為什麼不能針對每一個大型企業給予這樣的服務？例如遠通公司或銀行要通知相關訊息，像這些大型企業發簡訊的時候，可不可以一樣運用111短碼簡訊？"],["唐部長鳳：是，現在三大電信業者都有6碼的短碼，和平常的10碼不一樣，這個就是他們幫忙發簡訊，或是自己給會員發簡訊的時候使用，這一套我們和NCC討論過，現在三大電信已經建置起來。當然，是不是每一個企業都能有自己的短碼，就像「55688」那樣？因為那樣做可能有些建置費用。但現在至少都能共用一個6碼短碼，這部分他們現在都有建置。"],["蔡委員其昌：好的。本席的意思是說，你們可以告訴民眾，當簡訊中出現某些訊號，例如中國信託，那就一定是中國信託發的訊息，當然，這是中文字，你們現在只能用數字的方式呈現。"],["唐部長鳳：如果要用文字的方式呈現，其實可以使用Whoscall、Message Checker，這些要裝app。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，本席的意思是說，一樣，科技帶給我們便利，但也帶來新的犯罪型態，同樣的，針對科技有利的部分，數發部再想想，再發揮一下創意。"],["唐部長鳳：委員說的非常好，我們完全同意。"],["蔡委員其昌：最後，本席今天看到媒體報導，美國聯邦眾議院要在美中戰略競爭特別委員會中提一部法案，叫做保護美國人免受外國對手控制之應用程式侵害法案。"],["唐部長鳳：沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：簡單說就是他們要求中國的字節跳動公司切割，也就是國際版的抖音不可以和中國的字節跳動……"],["唐部長鳳：而且不只是持股51%，它要證明不會受實質控制。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，你個人覺得這個法案如何？"],["唐部長鳳：這就是在資安方面對有危害產品的防範，我們完全同意。對於有危害的產品，其實問題點不在於它在哪裡註冊，就算它在新加坡、開曼群島等地註冊，如果我們有情資顯示它被實質控制，那它一樣是危害產品。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以換言之，臺灣會跟隨？如果美國這個法案通過，我們一樣會跟進？"],["唐部長鳳：不是跟隨，我們已經這樣做一陣子了。"],["蔡委員其昌：你們有要求國際版抖音這樣做嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：現在是這樣子，我們和美國的狀況一樣，但是我們更早實施，在政府裡面，包含公務員獲配的設備等等，這些是連不到TikTok的、是擋住的，當然，除非中選會提出他們因應檢舉的需要，我們才會專門開通那幾台電腦啦！這部分的做法和美國是同步的。","委員剛才提到的是，是否逼他們一定要設一個境內的presence？事實上針對這個部分，我們有主動請TikTok從新加坡來臺北進行這方面的討論，但我們要先成為網路廣告平台業的主管機關才行，所以要先把業務從經濟部移過來，這樣我們下一步比較好做。"],["蔡委員其昌：以全球來說，一向都是美國的動作最大，他們每次都是引領大家跟隨。我們都很清楚，歸根究柢這就是言論自由和國家安全之間想法上的論戰，但美國做為民主國家的領頭羊，他們每次都是動作最大的國家。"],["唐部長鳳：我想這裡還是要分開論述，以英文來說，他們說freedom of speech，就是你的發言，和freedom of reach，就是你透過廣告一下子擴散到整個社會，這兩者還是不一樣的，不是不讓大家有言論自由，但是透過錢散播到整個社會，這是另外一回事。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯。其實我們都懂啦！只是每次贊成和反對的聲音都有，而其背後的價值又常常是在這個問題上突顯。所以本席的意思是說，國際上正在做的事情，我們至少要跟上，如果能超前，那當然更好。"],["唐部長鳳：當然，我們儘量以超前為目標。"],["蔡委員其昌：主席又站起來了，發言時間到了，之後我們還有很多時間可以和數發部一起討論。本席今天說的這三害，其實都還沒有提到它們的內容，例如網路犯罪，我跟部長也提過，本席前兩年也被駭客駭入電腦控制，雖然有報案，但我們的警政機關也沒有好的方法可以處理。"],["唐部長鳳：我們樂意來拜會委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：最後對方勒索，要給比特幣才能換回本席的資料。本席是受害者，也有很多想法，有時間我們再來討論。"],["唐部長鳳：我們找時間拜會委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。蔡委員發言完畢。現在請廖委員先翔發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","許智傑","葛如鈞","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","游顥","林沛祥","何欣純","徐巧芯","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","黃珊珊","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭"],"page_start":349,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就\n「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.3134687500000002,"end":4.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.48596875,"end":4.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.97534375,"end":5.262218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.1353437500000005,"end":7.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.67096875,"end":9.227843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.73409375,"end":14.695343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.589718750000003,"end":16.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.766593750000002,"end":23.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.49971875,"end":28.515968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.988468750000003,"end":29.460968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.16971875,"end":34.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.805968750000005,"end":38.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.14721875,"end":40.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.69971875,"end":42.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.471593750000004,"end":44.462843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.002843750000004,"end":46.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.65221875,"end":49.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.62221875,"end":54.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.82409375,"end":59.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.71784375,"end":59.768468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.768468750000004,"end":61.236593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.236593750000004,"end":61.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.02971875,"end":75.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.74096875000001,"end":73.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.71534375,"end":77.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.06971875,"end":76.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.79096875,"end":80.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.40659375,"end":89.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.99159375,"end":93.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.07596875,"end":90.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.43034375,"end":90.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.84784375000001,"end":91.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.75471875000001,"end":98.83409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.22221875000001,"end":101.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.60159375,"end":116.68784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.88409375,"end":103.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.67221875000001,"end":109.80284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.69721875,"end":111.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.58659375,"end":120.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.00784375,"end":121.12596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.48034375,"end":134.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.55096875,"end":129.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.65971875,"end":135.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.71034375000002,"end":152.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.49659375000002,"end":153.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.62721875,"end":154.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.23034375,"end":164.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.44409375,"end":178.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.31096875,"end":187.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.10721875000002,"end":187.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.52909375000002,"end":192.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.62534375,"end":198.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.88596875000002,"end":207.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.17159375,"end":212.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.82034375,"end":217.31346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.51596875,"end":220.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.11034375000003,"end":222.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.426593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所以我的意思只是舉這個例子來解釋說那個創意很重要那譬如說我們知道簡訊的詐騙事實上它跟它是NCC主要在NCC啦但因為簡訊的詐騙裡面它會連結網路所以它又跟速發布又扯上來所以NCC現在說如果你付網址那個網址沒註冊乾脆就不讓你發大方簡訊對對所以這個你應該想一些方法譬如說我以前就提過後來現在搞了那個111嘛"},{"start":320.822,"end":336.249,"text":"那其實不只這樣,像我覺得大型的企業,譬如說銀行,我常常最常接受到銀行的嘛,他是真的啦,他要通知你什麼可是通常喔,自從詐騙這幾年猖獗之後,我都教導老人家,你就不要看了啦"},{"start":337.642,"end":357.339,"text":"反正他要你辦的業務他就要直接找到你來辦嘛這其實變成我們的產業在發這個訊息他是效率極低因為我為什麼沒辦法嘛老人家他沒有辦法判別所以乾脆就叫我媽媽都不要打開了可是真的是銀行要通知他要辦什麼業務其實是無效的"},{"start":358.54,"end":378.447,"text":"對,那我的意思是說為什麼除了111之外不可以給每一個大型企業比如說遠通他要通知你那些相關的或者銀行像這些大型企業他在發簡訊的時候可不可以一樣有111的使用我們現在三大電信他都有這個6碼的短碼他跟平常10碼不一樣那這個就是他們在幫忙或他自己給會員發簡訊的時候用"},{"start":379.767,"end":407.35,"text":"所以這一套我們跟NCC討論現在三大電信有建置起來了那當然是不是說每個企業有自己的短碼像55688那樣那可能有一些建置費用但至少共用一個六碼短碼這個他們現在都有建置OK就是我的意思說當他有一個你告訴他說上面只要出現比如說上面出現中國信託那就一定中國信託那當然因為他是中文字啦你現在只能用碼用數字的方式如果要字的話當然可以像Who's Call啊Mr."},{"start":407.35,"end":408.871,"text":"Checker啊這些要裝APP"},{"start":409.493,"end":430.503,"text":"對,所以我的意思是說這個叫創就是一樣科技帶給我們便利但也帶給我們新的犯罪形態但同樣的我們也應該再把科技有利的部分在數法部再想想再發揮一下創意對,委員講得非常好,完全同意OK那最後一個就是說我今天看到了媒體美國這個聯邦眾議院在這個美中戰略競爭特別委員會裡面"},{"start":435.245,"end":462.537,"text":"他們要提了一個法叫做保護美國人免受外國對手控制之應用程式侵害法案簡單講就是他要中國這個自解跳動這個公司也就是抖音啊就要抖音這個公司啊要讓他切割也就是國際版的抖音不可以跟中國的這個自解跳動而且不是只是什麼持股51%他要證明他不會受實質控制對對對對那你個人覺得"},{"start":465.254,"end":493.934,"text":"這個就是我們在資安上面對危害產品我們是完全同一個立場就是危害產品現在並不是說他註冊在哪裡他就算註冊在新加坡在開曼群島等等我們有情資顯示他被實質控制他一樣是危害產品所以換言之臺灣會跟隨如果美國法案這個法案過了我們一樣要求跟隨我們已經做這樣一陣子所以我們的但是我們我們要求我們要求字節我們要求國際版的抖音"},{"start":494.794,"end":513.479,"text":"你要求過他們嗎?我們現在是這樣子跟委員報告我們現在跟美國狀況是一樣的我們更早實施就是在政府裡面包含這個公務員貨配的設備等等這些是擋住的TikTok是連不到的當然除非中選會他是需要檢舉我們專門開通那幾台電腦啦那這個跟美國是同步"},{"start":514.059,"end":534.631,"text":"委員剛剛提到是說有沒有說要逼著他說一定要設一個境內的這樣子的presence那這個我們事實上有主動的請TikTok從新加坡來台北來進行這方面的討論那這部分因為我們要先取得網路廣告平台業的主管機關的這個狀態所以要先從經濟部移過來我們下一步比較好做"},{"start":535.051,"end":561.446,"text":"好 所以我覺得這個其實美國的動作都會全球裡面我看美國最大他每次都是引領大家因為我們都很清楚知道這個是言論自由跟國家安全之間這個歸根究底就是這兩者之間的想法上的論戰但我覺得美國他作為民主國家的這個領頭羊他每次都是動作最大"},{"start":563.848,"end":580.366,"text":"我想這裡還是要分開一點就是在英文他們說freedom of speech就是你的發言跟freedom of reach就是你透過廣告一下擴散到整個社會這兩個還是不一樣的那不是說不讓大家有言論自由但是透過錢來散播到整個社會這另外一回事"},{"start":580.666,"end":594.895,"text":"沒錯,其實我們都懂啦只是說我會覺得他每次贊成跟反對的聲音他背後的價值常常是在這一個問題上面來凸顯那所以我的意思就是說如果國際發樓的事情我覺得我們"},{"start":596.276,"end":619.682,"text":"至少要跟上,如果能超前那當然更好當然,我們盡量以超前為目的那因為時間的關係主席又站起來了所以呢這個我們還有很多時間可以跟書發部一起來討論其實我今天講這傷害我都還沒開始提它的內容比如說這網路犯罪我跟部長也提,我前兩年也被駭客把我的電腦整個控管住嘛"},{"start":620.39,"end":620.83,"text":"我們就找時間拜賀委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149534","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149534","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe0f7f906b27840c54afe835f95dd6e817f8ba9b0039caa7a6333f0a6540d534985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"10:53:41 - 11:01:52","影片長度":"00:08:11","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":491,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:01:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T10:53:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":409,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（10時53分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["唐部長鳳：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長好。部長，詐欺犯罪猖獗不僅已經是民怨了，連基層的檢察官也反彈了，法務部繼去年增加了100名檢察官助理，今年再增加增聘了150名檢察官助理，並實施各項的改善方案、紓減檢察官的工作負荷，這邊要請問部長，對於去年基層檢察官點名金管會、NCC還有數發部等機構是否涉及行政怠惰，並盼法務部儘快增加檢察官人力。部長，有什麼看法？還有什麼樣的檢討方案？"],["唐部長鳳：好，謝謝，我想委員這個講得非常好，因為我們這3個其實是聯防的關係，當時檢察官主要反映的是，像第三方支付在我們，可是金融監理的很多工具在金管會，我們如果不把系統馬上接起來的話，那就會變成我們第三方支付這邊他們認為成為一個破口，但是包含洗防在內的這些作法我們立刻就提出能量登錄的方案，而且很多是跟檢察官一起討論出來的，現在能量登錄當然已經上路了，就不會像以前坊間說的，好像有上萬家第三方支付，跟委員報告，其實現在只有40多家跟我們有登錄。"],["邱委員若華：能量登錄是什麼時候的事？"],["唐部長鳳：能量登錄是在去年，就是委員提到的這個「劍青檢改」，所以我們去年就提出這個方案，一路輔導到去年年底，基本上都有來登錄，所以到今年如果沒有登錄的這些第三方支付，就不能再拿到虛擬帳號了。"],["邱委員若華：那有具體的下降數據嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：是的，當然，我們其實從第三方支付的量能可以看到，之前第三方支付在完全沒有能量登錄的情況之下，很多詐欺都是透過第三方支付的方式，可能一層、兩層就這樣子轉出去，那現在我們在跟檢察官合作的時候，即時通報案件的處理速度，包含圈存、警示帳戶等等速度都有大幅的改善，那這部分我們是不是書面再提供委員？"],["邱委員若華：OK，好，謝謝部長。","詐騙已經位居民怨排行榜的前面，可以看到「詐騙猖獗與資安議題」是民怨排行第3名，去年大選期間TPOC台灣議題研究中心也透過了QuickseeK快析輿情資料庫蒐集去年1月到10月的網路輿情聲量數據系統，我們可以看到它統計出民進黨政府十大民怨，那也可以看到詐騙猖獗與資安的問題，政府雖然一直在做宣傳，但詐騙案件和資安事件一直頻傳。數發部應該正視民眾遭詐騙的困擾，這邊我們談到是民眾，從源頭就防堵詐騙，還有強化資安管理，數發部應該好好運用數位科技的專長提供打詐國家隊相關部會還有數位資安的科技協助，針對於源頭的具體作為呢？"],["唐部長鳳：是的，有一個大家在之前常常收到的就是假冒政府機關，好比像說台水、台電說要繳費，但是點進去就是詐騙嘛，導致什麼呢？有一陣子連地方國稅局真的簡訊訊息都被認為是詐騙，變成政府沒有辦法接觸到民眾的情況，那這個我們就是透過111公部門專用的簡訊平臺，那現在大家就知道，不是111發的、又是說台水、台電要繳錢，那個就假的啦，這就是真正的源頭防詐。"],["邱委員若華：針對政府公部門，然後還有剛剛部長提到的就是……"],["唐部長鳳：國營事業這些。"],["邱委員若華：國營事業，然後還有一些像電商momo它們……"],["唐部長鳳：當然，就是民間的三大電信等等，因為我們1開頭是政府才能夠用的。"],["邱委員若華：那針對民眾呢？"],["唐部長鳳：但是三大電信其實它們現在自己都用6碼的短碼，每一個都已經有了，好比55688其實是5碼的短碼，所以大家看到短碼就知道。"],["邱委員若華：我們是希望可以不要觸及到民眾，你們做防堵，讓民眾不會接觸到。"],["唐部長鳳：對。"],["邱委員若華：那針對於這個呢？"],["唐部長鳳：應該是這樣講，如果你看到國際上面傳來的訊息或者是一個10碼的，它說它是台水，這部分當然NCC有做一部分的攔阻，但是大家就算看到了，一看不是111、不是短碼，就知道絕對是假的，所以這2個在源頭上面，一個是對於它傳訊的本身裡面有附網址等等的去攔阻；二方面是說111把真實的這個部分讓大家知道。"],["邱委員若華：是，部長您提到國際，那根據資安大廠趨勢科技發布調查，今年總統大選期間，中國駭客組織Earth Lusca利用地緣政治敏感議題，透過社交工程的手法對臺灣發起駭客的活動。數發部報告內容還有出國成效都有提到「國家資通安全發展方案」，強化智慧國家數位安全韌性。部長，您一直提到韌性這2個字；以及跨國聯防對抗資安的威脅、掌握全球資安發展脈動，還有促進跨國資安聯防等，數位部對這種重大駭客攻擊的防護能力如何？"],["唐部長鳳：其實選前像這種社交工程詐騙電子郵件，真的有一波，確實是平常的好幾倍，不論是這個還是阻斷攻擊等等，這個我們是有偵測到而且有擋下來，所以事實上沒有出事是因為我們做很多事情；第二步，我們未來有這樣重大事件的時候，我們藉由新的資通安全管理法會有一個調度的權限，所以就讓其他旁邊的資安專責人員也可以一起來參與。"],["邱委員若華：是。想請教部長，因為很多詐騙集團它們的機房都設於國外，被害者常常求助無門，更助長很多境外的詐騙特別瞄準臺灣人民，而臺灣是資訊科技大國，有那麼多的高科技人才，數發部卻仍然無能為力嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：不是這樣子，我想以境外的這個廣告平臺，剛剛很多位委員在垂詢，一方面當然我們有主動跟經濟部說，之後是不是這些網路廣告平臺也應該移來讓我們主管，那如果真的有移過來之後，又推了電子簽章法，那它不管是在境內、境外同樣都需要受到數位簽章的這個規範，未來我們也會參與像打詐專法，如果它真的在境內都沒有設定代理人的話，我們必須要它到一定規模的時候就要設立代理人。"],["邱委員若華：OK。數發部積極出國參與國際重要的會議還有活動，已掌握各國的數位技術還有政策發展情形，對於源頭打詐及資安的實際成效如何？請部長說明。"],["唐部長鳳：所以就剛剛提到我們已經主管的部分，好比說電商，我們就是跟國外同步去運用這個隱碼技術，就是電商不用把你的個資交給物流，包含手機號碼也是一樣，物流掃一個QR Code就可以聯絡到你，而你看到的號碼是一個代表號，就是那個電商的代表號，這樣雙方都不會留下彼此的個資，那是個非常有效的方法。"],["邱委員若華：這是不是現在Uber正在使用的方式？"],["唐部長鳳：還包括Friday購物、博客來，現在五大電商都有使用，另外PChome和東森正在測試，很快會上路。"],["邱委員若華：好，請部長繼續努力，我們希望民眾可以不被詐騙集團鎖定，因為部長談到的111短碼簡訊，感覺上還是針對電商，服務用於電商。"],["唐部長鳳：只是廣告平台的部分，對，廣告平台的部分是大家現在最關注的，因為電商很多是B2C，就是由大品牌賣給民眾，但是現在很多都移到廣告平台變成C2C，就是他們打個廣告，自己直播賣東西，這時候他並不是商家。"],["邱委員若華：對，部長提到的C2C，例如在臉書上面就是有需要……"],["唐部長鳳：對，這個就需要電子簽章法才能夠給予保障，即使賣的人是自然人，由他下投資廣告等等，還是可以讓他用數位簽章。"],["邱委員若華：至於您提到的實名制，後續會如何處理呢？應該不只是下架。"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝。這部分有兩件事，一個是投資廣告，現在是檢舉後24小時要下架，我們是希望它被下架之後，不能換個名字再上廣告，這是第一點。第二個，我們有跨平台的聯防，也就是它在這邊下架之後，我們就會同步通報其他通路，包含廣告平台、電商平台、165專線等等，這時候它在所有平台的產品也會一起下架。"],["邱委員若華：實名制需要登錄他的身分證字號嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：是數位簽章啦！數位簽章有一點很重要，投信投顧法已經要求登廣告的這個人必須要做揭露，這部分法有授權，除非他剛好和我同名同姓。所以他可以刊登一次，但當他的廣告被下架，之後就不能再冒充我了。"],["邱委員若華：好的，謝謝部長。"],["主席：邱委員發言完畢。現在請蔡委員其昌發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","徐富癸","林國成","許智傑","葛如鈞","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","邱若華","蔡其昌","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","游顥","林沛祥","何欣純","徐巧芯","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","黃珊珊","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭"],"page_start":349,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請數位發展部部長唐鳳就\n「112年度出國預算辦理成效及113年度預計效益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.29659375,"end":1.8872187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.14034375,"end":3.6759687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.9797187500000004,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.19471875,"end":11.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.590343750000002,"end":12.805343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.73346875,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.29846875,"end":18.812843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.21784375,"end":37.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.66221875,"end":39.602843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.62409375,"end":38.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.602843750000005,"end":75.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.36096875,"end":76.00221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.00221875000001,"end":91.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.05284375000001,"end":76.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.98284375,"end":94.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.41284375000001,"end":118.81409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.81409375000001,"end":125.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.66534375,"end":130.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.50409375,"end":136.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.75221875,"end":138.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.70971875,"end":140.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.91596875000002,"end":170.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.33346875,"end":200.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.79846875,"end":192.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.43034375000002,"end":199.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.60721875000002,"end":206.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.41284375,"end":204.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.47159375,"end":204.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.15909375,"end":221.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.55096875,"end":209.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.23846875,"end":211.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.03159375,"end":212.28471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.89596875,"end":216.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.05159375000002,"end":220.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.84034375000002,"end":225.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.81471875000003,"end":223.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.48534375000003,"end":224.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.53159375,"end":251.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.30346875,"end":227.42159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.92409375000003,"end":267.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.02284375,"end":284.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.94846875,"end":309.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.26096875,"end":318.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.03596875,"end":319.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.79534375000003,"end":326.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.89971875000003,"end":354.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.33846875,"end":360.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.85221875,"end":365.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.71221875000003,"end":386.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.53284375000004,"end":379.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.91596875000005,"end":388.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.22346875000005,"end":398.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.37471875,"end":392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謝謝我想委員這個講得非常好因為我們這三個其實是聯房的關係那當時檢察官主要反應的就是說像第三方支付在我們可是金融監理的很多工具在金管會那我們如果不把系統馬上接起來的話那就會變成是說我們第三方支付這邊他們認為說要成為一個破口但是這個我們包含洗房在內的這些做法我們立刻就提出能量登錄的方案而且很多是跟檢察官一起討論出來的"},{"start":65.561,"end":90.697,"text":"所以當然我們現在能量登錄當然已經上路了就不會像大家以前坊間說好像有上萬家第三方支付的營業項目跟委員報告現在只有40多家是跟我們有登錄的能量登錄是什麼時候的?是,能量登錄就是在去年委員提這個漸清漸改的時候我們去年就提出這個方案那我們一路輔導到去年年底那基本上都有來登錄所以到今年呢就是大家如果沒有登錄的這些第三方支付就不能再拿到虛擬賬號了"},{"start":92.042,"end":118.531,"text":"那有具體的數據?下降的數據嗎?是的當然我們其實從第三方支付的這個量能可以看到就是之前第三方支付在完全沒有這個能量登錄的情況之下很多的詐欺他都是透過第三方支付的方式可能一層兩層就這樣子轉出去那現在呢我們在跟檢察官合作的時候即時通報的案件的這個處理的速度包含圈存、警示賬戶等等這個速度都有大幅的改善那這部分我們是不是書面在提供委員?"},{"start":118.871,"end":140.546,"text":"OK好謝謝部長那我們看第二張簡報那詐騙已經是民怨排行榜的前面可以看到是第三個詐騙詐騙猖獗與資安議題那去年大選期間TPOC臺灣議題研究中心也透過了Quick Seek快息與輿論分析資料庫收集從去年1月到10月的時候網路輿情的聲量數據系統他統計出民進黨政府十大"},{"start":141.98,"end":169.537,"text":"十大民怨我們可以看到那也可以看到那個倉爵治安的問題政府雖然一直在做宣傳但詐騙案件和治安事件一直頻傳那訴發部應該正式民眾這邊我們談到是民眾遭詐騙的困擾從源頭源頭就防堵詐騙還有強化治安管理那訴發部應該好好運用數位科技的專長那提供打造國家對相關部會還有數位治安的科技協助那具體的作為呢針對於源頭"},{"start":170.518,"end":192.004,"text":"是的 有一個大家在之前常常收到的就是假冒政府機關那好比像說台水台電說要繳費但是這個點進去就是詐騙嘛那又導致什麼呢有一陣子連地方的國稅局他真的是簡訊訊息都被認為是詐騙變成政府沒有辦法接觸到民眾的情況那這個我們就透過111這個公部門專用的簡訊平台"},{"start":194.345,"end":216.765,"text":"現在大家就知道說不是一一發的又是說台水台電要繳錢那個就假的了這就是真正的源頭防詐政府公部門然後還有剛剛部長提到的國營事業然後還有一些像電商某某他們我們就發現就是當然就是民間的三大電信等等因為我們一開頭是政府才能夠用的但是三大電信其實他們現在自己都用六碼的這個短碼每個都已經有了"},{"start":218.226,"end":237.319,"text":"5、5、6、8、8其實是無碼的短碼所以大家看到短碼就知道我們希望可以不要觸及到民眾就是我們做防堵讓民眾不會接觸到對那針對於是應該是這樣講是說如果你看到國際上面傳來的訊息或者是說一個實碼的他說他是台稅這一部分當然有NCC有做一部分的攔阻啦"},{"start":237.819,"end":258.144,"text":"但是大家就算看到了一看了不是111不是短碼就知道說絕對就是假的這樣所以這兩個在源頭上面一個是對於他傳訊的本身裡面有附網址等等的去攔阻那二方面是說111把真實的這個部分讓大家知道是部長您提到國際那根據資安大廠趨勢科技發布調查今天總統大選期間中國駭客組織EarthBusca"},{"start":258.624,"end":284.386,"text":"他們利用地緣政治敏感議題透過社交工程的手法對臺灣發起駭客的活動。訴發部報告還有內容出國成效都有提到國家自動安全發展方案那強化智慧國家數位安全韌性部長您一直提到韌性這兩個字以及跨國聯防對抗治安的威脅掌握全球治安發展脈動還有促進促進跨國治安聯防等數位部隊這種重大駭客的攻擊防護能力如何?"},{"start":285.046,"end":308.731,"text":"其實選前像這種社交工程、詐騙電子優先真的有一波﹖確實是平常的好幾倍喔那但是不論是這個還是阻斷攻擊等等這個我們是有偵測到而且有擋下來所以事實上沒有出事是因為我們做很多事情那第二步就是我們在未來有這樣重要事件的時候我們藉由新的自動安全管理法或一個調度的這個權限所以就讓其他的旁邊的資安專責人也可以來一起來參與"},{"start":310.822,"end":338.309,"text":"想請教部長因為很多詐騙集團他們的機房都設於國外那被害者常常求助無門更助長很多境外的詐騙特別瞄準臺灣人民那臺灣是資訊科技大國有那麼多的高科技人才速發部卻仍然無能為力嗎?不是這樣子我想以境外的這個廣告平台剛剛很多委員在追詢一方面當然我們有主動跟經濟部說之後是不是這些網路廣告平台也應該移來當我們主管"},{"start":338.809,"end":354.004,"text":"如果真的有移過來之後又推了電子簽章法那他不管是在境內境外他同樣的都收到需要有數位簽章這個規範那未來我們也會參與像打造專法去說如果他真的在境內都沒有設定代理人的話我們必須要他到一定規模的時候就要設定代理人了"},{"start":355.22,"end":375.648,"text":"蘇發部積極出國參與國際重要的會議還有活動．以掌握各國的數位．技術還有政策發展情形．對於源頭打炸及治安實際成效如何．請部長說明所以就剛剛提到我們已經主管的部分．他比方說電商．我們就是跟國外同步去讓銀碼技術．就是電商不用把你的個資．包含手機號碼交給物流．"},{"start":377.088,"end":377.528,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":398.912,"end":422.059,"text":"希望部長還有可以繼續再助能力我們希望民眾可以不用接觸到就是詐騙被詐騙集團鎖定對因為這個部長談到的這個111那感覺還是在針對就是電商只是廣告平台的部分對廣告平台的部分是現在大家最關注的因為很多他並不是電商很多是B2C嘛就是有這個大的平台賣給人"},{"start":422.999,"end":445.147,"text":"但是現在很多他移到廣告平台變C to C就他打個廣告然後他就好像自己直播然後就賣個東西這個時候他並不是商家。對C to C是部長提到就是在臉書上面就是需要用這個。對那這個電子簽商法才能夠給我們就是即使對方賣的這個人是自然人他下一個投資廣告或什麼都可以讓他要數位簽賬。那您提到實名制那後續的處理呢?就是不只是下架。"},{"start":447.188,"end":467.141,"text":"對 謝謝我想兩件事一個是說投資廣告當然現在檢舉24小時要下架那我們是希望說他被下架之後不能換個名字再上來這是第一點那第二個是說我們有跨平台的聯防所以他在這邊下架的時候我們就同步通報到其他的包含廣告平台、電商平台、165等等那這個時候他在所有其他別的平台的也可以一起下架"},{"start":467.281,"end":488.772,"text":"那實名制會需要他的身份證紙好嗎?是數位簽章了數位簽章對那數位簽章裏面很重要的是因為投信投顧法裏面已經講了說登廣告這個人他必須要來做揭露這個是法有授權所以除非說他跟我剛好同名同姓那當然就是他可以看一次吧但是如果他被下架之後他也不能再冒充我了OK好謝謝部長好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149533","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149533","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe0f880c4b77b11683dc62c46c87ca327ff8ba9b0039caa7a61307287ca052fc045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"11:26:23 - 11:31:55","影片長度":"00:05:32","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健康保險署、食品藥物管理署就「健保藥價調整，藥廠停產慢性病用藥之因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":332,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:31:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:26:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":839,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時26分）謝謝主席，有請衛福部部長。"],["主席：部長請，水帶著。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長你好。我本身也是接獲到陳情，許多的電話一直在跟我們抗議這件事情，衛福部擬取消掛號費上限這件事情對我們來說，基層影響非常深。剛剛聽到部長您一直咳嗽，最近有去看醫生嗎？還是看診所？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，我自己處理。"],["羅委員廷瑋：自己就處理了，那我要跟你科普一下，基本上，臺中的診所掛號費大概150元、100元，甚至有的會部分減免，50元；臺北就我所調查，大概250元左右。就這樣子的掛號費來說，民間都非常非常地希望衛福部應該重新思考審視，廢除這樣子的規定，我想政府的政策不應該是有錢人才有資格生病，雖然這不是本席今天主要質詢的內容範圍，但是我要表達我的抗議。","另外，本席有一個重要的議題想跟你探討一下，部長，DET試辦超過10年，遇到缺藥就說要檢討DET，請問過去10年是否有和藥界討論DET的檢討事項？若有，和誰討論？能不能跟現場每一位委員來說？"],["薛部長瑞元：每年都有和藥界在做討論，至於對象是誰，我是不是請署長來回答？"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，是。"],["石署長崇良：委員好。跟委員報告，我們從去年開始就在討論DET的修正，跟九大公協會……"],["羅委員廷瑋：跟誰？"],["石署長崇良：九大公協會。"],["羅委員廷瑋：九大公協會。"],["石署長崇良：包含進口商的，還有在臺學名藥的，大概都有在討論。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，會後是不是可以提供會議紀錄？"],["石署長崇良：可以、可以。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，那我還是要跟您分享我所瞭解到的一些相關資訊，我有幾個時間軸想跟你分享。106年3月，劉建國委員受藥界八大公協會理事長請託，邀集健保署召開協調會，原本是答應，但會後健保署是反悔，建國委員只好請陳時中部長自己向藥界八大公協會理事長來解釋。","106年4月10日，陳時中部長特別宴請八大公協會在北海漁村餐宴，當時餐宴陳時中部長就有說明，同意藥界要求，近期內召開修正DET的會議。","108年3月，我們也看到有這樣的新聞稿，健保署發布「健保署依法調整藥價，願積極與藥界檢討DET之計算公式」。","112年2月27日，我們看到缺藥潮一直在延燒，衛福部又提出短中長期的因應策略，在中期的部分，食藥署與健保署也都說要做DET的檢討。","這樣子一連串，一直都說要檢討、檢討，到113年2月27日，中國時報報導：「健保砍藥價半年後恐掀缺藥潮」。","本席就自己本身有去請教過幾位藥界的大老，他們都一致地跟我說DET試辦至今超過10年，從來都沒有正式地開會和藥界討論，也沒有調整過。部長，請聽清楚，他們所說的是，他們認為從來都沒有和藥界討論過，因此本席不僅要問：106年陳時中部長承諾近期內召開修正研討DET的會議，何時會開會？108年積極討論計算公式，何時會開會？112年食藥署、健保署檢討的DET制度，什麼時候會開會？","顯然我個人認為在我所探討的這些藥界大老，他們不覺得有一個固定的確定時間，僅僅只是官方的美話，所以本席希望主席能夠裁示，請衛福部確定究竟是1個月、2個月、3個月，還是半年、1年，還是4年、2年來召開DET檢討會議，是不是能夠有一個確切的時間？建議能夠邀請醫藥界、消費者代表還有相關的團體。召開DET檢討會議，創造三贏的DET會議，讓藥價回到正常的醫療經濟學，讓民眾可以用到高品質的藥物。","最後，為免除民眾的恐慌，請衛福部允諾，113年2月27日食藥署公布近期短缺的15項藥品及其他藥品，在6個月或1年、2年不會有缺藥的情況發生，能夠就這樣子來做一個探討、允諾。","這個部分最後再請主席，因為我不是衛環委員會的委員，如果衛福部召開DET的檢討會議，是不是也可以讓我們來參加？這個也請主席裁示，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，我可以回答嗎？我稍微說明一下，因為剛剛有講到，其實去年有關於DET的會議已經開了5、6次，最近一次會在3月13日召開，有關於會議紀錄我們都可以來提供。至於開會的時候立委是不是可以參加，我們再研議看看。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。"],["主席：那就請部長研議，因為待會也會有一個臨提，關於檢討DET的臨提，那就一併來處理。","接下來請李彥秀委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-4","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","林德福","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","李彥秀","林淑芬","黃健豪","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","林憶君","劉建國","陳瑩","楊曜","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健康保險署、食品藥物管理署就「健保藥價調整，藥廠停產慢性病用\n藥之因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.61221875,"end":8.654093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.375343750000003,"end":12.231593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.560343750000001,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.859718750000003,"end":32.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.009093750000005,"end":34.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.40534375,"end":84.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.89534375000001,"end":92.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.20221875,"end":107.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.42034375,"end":101.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.49596875,"end":102.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.58034375000001,"end":102.98534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.98534375000001,"end":103.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.33909375,"end":107.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.37284375,"end":107.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.50784375,"end":245.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.35971875,"end":255.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.31159375000004,"end":296.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.46971875,"end":299.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.70971875000004,"end":325.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.23971875,"end":311.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.72909375,"end":312.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.97159375,"end":325.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.41034375000004,"end":332.55284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.479,"end":10.443,"text":"有請衛福部部長委員好"},{"start":15.933,"end":33.5,"text":"好部長你好我想我本身呢也是接獲到選情許多的電話一直在跟我們抗議這件事情衛福部你取消掛號費上限這件事情對我們來說基層影響非常深那剛剛聽到部長你一直咳嗽最近有去看醫生嗎還是看診所沒有我自己處理"},{"start":34.6,"end":55.08,"text":"自己就處理了我想那我要跟你科普一下基本上台中我們的診所掛號費大概150甚至有的會部分減免50那台北就我所調查大概250左右那我想就這樣子的掛號費來說我想民間都非常非常的希望衛福部應該重新思考審視廢除這樣子的規定"},{"start":57.102,"end":83.402,"text":"我想政策喔政府的政策不應該是有錢人才有資格生病雖然這不是本席今天總要質詢的一個內容範圍但是我要表達我的抗議那另外呢我想跟本席有一個重要的議題想跟你探討一下部長第一梯事辦超過10年遇到缺藥就說要檢討第一梯請問過去10年是否跟藥界討論第一梯的一個檢討事項若有跟誰討論能不能跟現場每位委員來說"},{"start":85.706,"end":106.698,"text":"這都每年都有跟這一些藥界在做討論那至於對象是誰我是不是請我們署長來回答好是委員好跟委員報告那麼我們從去年開始就在討論這個第一梯的修正那跟這個九大工協會九大工協會包含進口商的還有在台學名藥的大概都有在討論"},{"start":107.318,"end":134.111,"text":"那會後是不是可以提供會議紀錄呢?可以可以那我還是要跟您分享我所了解到的一些相關資訊跟你分享那我有幾個時間軸想跟你分享106年3月劉建國委員受藥界八大工協會請理事長請託邀集健保署召開協調會我想原本答應但最後會後健保署是反悔那建國委員只好請陳時中部長自己向藥界八大工協會理事長來解釋"},{"start":136.653,"end":155.215,"text":"106年4月10日陳時中部長特別宴請八大工協會在北海漁村參宴我想當時參宴就有跟陳時中部長就有說明同意藥界要求近期召開修正的第一批會議那108年3月我們也看到有這樣的新聞稿"},{"start":155.836,"end":174.084,"text":"健保署發布《健保署依法調整藥價》願積極與藥界檢討第一梯的計算公式我想112年2月27日我們也看到缺藥潮的一直在延燒衛福部又提出短中長期的因應策略在中期的部分食藥署跟健保署也都說要第一梯的檢討"},{"start":175.325,"end":199.053,"text":"我想這樣子一連串一直都說要檢討檢討到113年2月27日中國時報的報導健保砍藥價半年後恐缺藥草我想本席就自己本身有去請教過幾位藥界的大佬他們一致的都跟我說DET的試辦至今超過10年從來都沒有正式的跟開會跟藥界討論也沒有調整過我想部長我想請"},{"start":203.015,"end":216.429,"text":"聽清楚他們所說的是他們認為從來都沒有跟藥界討論過因此本席不僅要問106年陳時中部長近期所召開的修正研討第一題的會議何時會開會108年積極討論計算公式何時會開會112年食藥署健保署檢討的第一題制度什麼時候會開會"},{"start":225.658,"end":244.231,"text":"顯然我個人認為在我所探討的這些藥界大佬他們沒有覺得有一個固定的確定時間僅僅只是官方的一個美化我想這個部分本席希望主席能夠才是請衛福部確定究竟是一個月兩個月三個月還是半年一年還是四年兩年"},{"start":246.473,"end":271.993,"text":"來檢討召開這個第一梯的一個會議是不是能夠有一個確切的一個時間能夠建議邀請醫藥界的消費者代表還有相關的團體就召開第一梯的檢討會議創造三贏的第一梯會議讓藥價回到正常的醫療經濟學讓民眾可以用到高品質的藥物最後我想為免除民眾的恐慌請衛夫允諾"},{"start":273.274,"end":299.193,"text":"113年2月27日食藥署公布近期短缺的15項藥品及其他藥品在6個月或1年、2年不會有缺藥的情況發生能夠就這樣子來做一個探討允諾這部分最後再請我們那個主席因為我不是衛環委員會的委員如果衛福部召開第一梯的檢討會議是不是也可以讓我們來參加我想這個也請主席才是 謝謝好 委員我可以回答嗎"},{"start":301.766,"end":325.007,"text":"我稍微說明一下因為剛剛有講到那其實去年有關於第一批的會議已經開了5、6次那最近一次會在1月13日3月13日召開啦所以這位有關於會議紀錄我們都可以來做提供至於說開會的時候立委是不是可以參加我想這我們再研議看看"},{"start":326.469,"end":326.81,"text":"關於要檢討"}]}},{"id":"149532","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149532","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe44918ba70bac059daaa95e40c3cff622f8ba9b0039caa7a66348e1de93919e675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:16:09 - 11:32:08","影片長度":"00:15:59","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":959,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:32:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:16:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1495,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時16分）部長、各位司、處、署長，大家好。我想在本會期的委員裡面，我應該是對檢方最瞭解的人，在修法上面能協助檢方的，我當然都會儘量去協助；當然有一些問題，我也希望能提出來，畢竟在這個環境做了快20年，瞭解是比較多，當然我也知道有一些東西。如果是無端的要求，要求你們做一個做不到的事情，其實也是沒有意義的。","我先提第一個東西，其實是延續總召剛剛所提的問題，就是人民對司法信任度的這個部分，當然很多時候民眾對於司法的信任與否，可能是從電視上面，甚至是一些電視劇，讓他對司法有一些誤解；但很多時候是不是我們自己搞出來的問題？請問部長知不知道高虹安有一個跟助理有關的案子，在訊問的時候，中間中斷了16分鐘的錄音？"],["蔡部長清祥：這個案情的內容我不清楚。"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有問案情的內容，我單純就是問知不知道有16分鐘的錄音不見了，不是不見，是中斷了16分鐘的錄音。"],["蔡部長清祥：我也是看報導的。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。依據刑事訴訟法第一百條之一，已經規定的非常明確，應該要全程錄音；另外，在檢察機關及司法警察機關錄音錄影資料保管辦法第三條也規定的非常清楚，一定要全程錄音。今天當事人對這個部分有意見，結果我們公訴檢察官竟然當庭，我不要說嗆他啦，這位公訴檢察官竟然說，中斷16分鐘是在與被告跟辯護律師做法律上定義的溝通，無關案件內容，不明白被告申請勘驗的意義是什麼。請問一下部長，對於檢察官自己違反刑事訴訟法以及保管辦法的規定，讓中間16分鐘沒有錄音，公訴檢察官的這個說法，你認同嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果整個訴訟程序在進行當中，當然要連續錄音錄影，如果是中間休息或是做其他的，整個訴訟程序中斷，那當然就停止錄音，對於每個案件，檢察官本來就可以來做整個案件處理的流程，所以要分辨它的情形如何。"],["吳委員宗憲：今天問題就出在這裡，其實我今天提這個並不是要找誰的麻煩，而是希望我們對一些問題可以把它補足，不要因為一些疏失，讓外界對我們產生很大的誤解。今天當事人說在這16分鐘裡面，承辦的檢察官跟他說上面交代要起訴他，講了這句話；但因為沒有錄這16分鐘，導致現在就是各說各話，沒有辦法再查下去。所以我認為這種事情非同小可，因為這個對檢察界的傷害是很大的。當然我在這邊，我沒有說那一位承辦的檢察官真的會去恐嚇被告，我沒有做這樣的結論，但是是不是因為這16分鐘沒有錄音，讓外界對這件事情認為現在就是羅生門了。是不是說我們將來可以要求檢察官在訊問的時候，一定要連續全程錄音、錄影，如果說真的有一些狀況需要中斷的話，務必要載明筆錄中斷的原因是什麼，這一次的問題是出在沒有載明筆錄，結果後來被發現他的錄影是分成兩個不同的檔案，中間有16分鐘不見了，這16分鐘就發生了這樣子的糾紛，所以是不是麻煩法務部一定要通告各地檢、高檢，將來在做相關訊問的時候，錄音能夠連續，好不好？我想這個應該是沒有問題，而且依法我們就該這麼做。所以我沒有辦法理解的是，這個公訴檢察官竟然還好意思去嗆那個當事人，我認為自己不對在先，如果被抓包了，在態度上還是不要去跟人家這樣子強硬地頂回去，因為是自己不對嘛，依法就要全程錄影嘛。請問部長，這一塊能不能夠做到？"],["蔡部長清祥：好。謝謝委員的指教。我們願意來重申，要求承辦的檢察官或是公訴的檢察官，在行使任何刑事訴訟程序職權的時候，依照規定，如果應該要全程錄音、錄影，就要照做，那我們會願意來做函示，來做重申。"],["吳委員宗憲：是。尤其是那種有高度爭議性的案件或高度政治性案件的時候，麻煩這個一定要做到，這樣子才能重拾民眾對我們的信心。否則今天這件事情，我不知道當事人說的是真是假，我也不知道檢察官說的是真是假，但是民眾可能就會開始對司法產生質疑，這一塊再麻煩部長能夠多處理。","接下來我想要請教的是人力的部分，最近大家都一直在講檢察官助理，其實我常常聽到以前的同事抱怨說工作量現在真的太多了，所以你們說希望爭取檢察官助理，這當然是善意，可是你們有沒有想過，檢事官現在沒有補滿的比例還滿高的？"],["蔡部長清祥：我跟委員說明一下，檢事官要經過考試，考試及格以後，還要參加職前訓練，所以雖然有缺額，但是都是預空給這些要考試、要受訓的人用，並不是完全就擺在那裡不用，但是要一段時間，而現在立即要處理的就是打詐缺乏的人力，所以我們才會用檢察官助理來立即補足。何況法官都有法官助理，檢察官本來就應該也要有，法院組織法也規定要有檢察官助理，所以我們在法制化之前，希望爭取行政院的支持，確實行政院也支持。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們看一下偵查的四個核心好了，其實偵查的四個核心就是內勤、外勤、開庭跟寫書類這四個，我想這這四個是重點，那請問一下，檢察官助理能夠做到這幾個的哪一件事情？"],["蔡部長清祥：他只是輔助檢察官做行政事務的一個工作，所以是有範圍限制的，不像檢事官，檢察事務官具有司法警察的身分，他可以行使的職權更寬廣；檢察官助理沒有，他只是純粹一個行政事務的協助而已，所以當然要求是不同的，工作的內容也不同。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝部長，這樣的話，我大概瞭解。但是我必須跟部長說明一件事情，部長，你要注意一個點，就是這幾年離職率太高了，檢事官離職率也高，檢察官離職率也高，我先從檢事官這邊開始說起，我現在說的每一個東西都不是聽說，而是我自己經歷過的，還有我自己以前的同事私下會跟我講一些。其實檢事官離職率這麼高，有一個非常核心的問題是沒有成就感，雖然我們有簡任的職缺，有主任檢察事務官，但是目前都沒有，已經25年了，都沒有派。我當然知道原因，我也去思考過派了之後會不會造成簡任大增，或者是有人占了那個職缺就不走，但是除了這些問題之外，是不是也要考量看要怎麼解決士氣低落的問題？因為檢事官確實工作範圍非常廣，而且能夠幫助檢察官很多，但是像現在的狀況，他們士氣不高，我們是不是有辦法用其他制度？像我昨天在跟人事長談的時候，我說像日本的副檢察官制度，是不是就是一個鼓勵他們繼續做下去的動力？或是部長有一個非常好的德政，就是讓他們能夠轉任檢察官，我真的絕對肯定部長這個決策。所以說可不可以再有別的鼓勵方式？譬如說，副檢察官這個制度，副檢察官當然可以類似院方的司法事務官，他做的某些東西有一定的法律上效果，不會像現在的檢事官，可能沒有辦法取得完全的司法官權責，所以這部分再麻煩研議一下。其實這都只是為了讓他們能夠更有動力。","另外還有一個，就是檢察官離職很多。部長可能位高權重久了，聽不到外界的一些聲音，我以前的同事總是說，三專、二專制及輪調制是他們想離職的主因。部長應該知道，最近士檢有一個我們以前的好同事，好像是下個月還是下下個月就要離職了，其實大家背後的原因都一樣，你叫一個已經是主治醫師的醫生又回去做住院醫師，或是叫銀行的經理最後又回去坐櫃台，這樣的制度是不是違反人性？它也許解決了A這個問題，但是它創造了B那個問題。結果走的是我們最堅強的偵查力量，雖然他走了會有新人補進來，但是新人的能力遠遠不及這些走掉的，這是我自己觀察以後很憂心的一個問題，這樣是不是會讓檢察的戰力弱化？部長，你對這個有什麼看法？"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員的關心。委員你非常瞭解我們檢察體系人力的狀況，檢察官離職，當然每個人有他的生涯規劃，像委員你離職以後就有很多很好的成就，有些人有另外的規劃，我們都予以尊重。至於二專生、三專生這個制度，在我上任之前就已經定案了，我只是讓它執行一段時間以後，適時來檢討，也許在該檢討的時候，我們會立即檢討，讓大家看到自己的遠景。","至於檢事官的部分，我們也給予很多鼓勵措施，包括讓具有律師資格的能夠轉任為檢察官，沒有律師資格的，我們也需要有一些鼓勵，未來派任組長，擔任組長一段時間後有經驗了，未來也可能派任主任，我們有一套時程、有一套規劃來鼓勵他們，不管是檢察官或檢察事務官。謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：另外還有一個，書類的製作上，因為書類一直是這些檢察官工作量非常大的負荷之一，起訴的案子現在可能只有10%上下，不起訴處分的部分，是不是還是要用力去推廣做檢事？現在訓練所裡面沒有教很多檢事的部分，他們出了訓練所，分發之後，大家也沒有走檢事的路，書類還是寫得落落長，這個對於檢察官的偵查能量是會有影響的。花很多時間在起訴書的製作，我舉雙手贊成，但是我覺得不起訴處分書或簽結應該要簡化，在不影響確定力的情況下，不起訴處分，事實部分儘量記載，才不會造成確定力受不起訴處分的影響，能簡化的儘量簡化，麻煩部長用力推。因為現在檢察官負荷不了，一堆檢察官來拜託我，請我一定要幫忙，我在這個會期接下來幾年也一定會全力協助檢察官降低工作量，強化偵查品質，但是也是要麻煩部裡面多幫忙。","最後就是要跟部長說明一下，我覺得有時候檢察官離開，真的不是隨波逐流或追求金錢權位，不是這樣啦！部長有一次說了一些話，部長知不知道這個新聞？"],["蔡部長清祥：我要說明一下，我當時這樣的說法是在鼓勵留下來的人，因為大部分是留下來的，少數離開了，就一直在批評現在環境不好等等，我為了要鼓勵真正留下來並願意再為檢察體系奮鬥的人，我是這樣來鼓勵他們，他們把我的話解釋成是在批評那些離開的人，像委員你這麼高成就，我是引以為榮啊，我為什麼會去批評他們？他們每個人有自己的生涯規劃，但是外面曲解為我好像是對這些離開的人指責，不是，我是在鼓勵留下來的人，所以他們要珍惜，這個是做很有意義的事，為社會貢獻，雖然工作環境或是所得報酬跟外界其他職務不成比例，但是我們有使命感，我們要靠我們的熱忱來為社會服務，我的重點是在這裡，但是大家曲解為我是對那些人不滿，不是這樣，是他們在批評我們，我反而是告訴留下來的人。謝謝委員給我機會說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我不是指責部長，因為有人一直講，所以我讓部長有機會跟大家談一下部長的想法，就是希望部長儘量多聽真話，少偏聽，這是我聽到的一些話，在這邊跟部長說明一下。謝謝各位。"],["主席：謝謝吳召委的詢答。","接下來依照主席之前的宣告，我們先休息5分鐘。","休息（11時32分）","繼續開會（11時39分）"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：現在繼續開會。","請楊委員瓊瓔進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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個訴訟程序中斷那當然就停止錄音這是如果每個案件檢察官本來就是可以來做整個案件處理的流程所以要分辨它的情形如何"},{"start":185.68,"end":185.7,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":207.164,"end":227.216,"text":"檢察辦的檢察官跟他說上面交代要起訴他講這句話那因為沒有錄這16分鐘就導致現在各說各話沒有辦法再查下去所以我認為這種事情非同小可因為這個對檢察界的傷害是很大的"},{"start":228.107,"end":248.283,"text":"當然我在這邊我沒有說那位陳辦的檢察官真的會去恐嚇被告我沒有做這樣的結論但是是不是因為有這16分鐘沒有錄音讓外界對這件事情現在就是羅生門了是不是說我們將來可以要求"},{"start":249.229,"end":250.47,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":265.686,"end":285.593,"text":"中斷的原因是什麼?這一次的問題是出在沒有展明筆錄結果後來被發現他的錄影是分成兩個不同的檔案中間有16分鐘不見了那這16分鐘就發生了這樣子的糾紛所以是不是麻煩法務部一定要通告各院"},{"start":287.148,"end":288.049,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":311.804,"end":320.133,"text":"就我覺得態度上還是不要去跟人家這樣子強硬的頂回去因為自己不對嘛依法我們就要全程錄影嘛"},{"start":322.541,"end":342.699,"text":"請問部長這塊能不能夠做到?好,謝謝委員的指教。我們願意來重申要求承辦的檢察官或是公訴的檢察官,那你在任何在行使行事訴訟程序的職權的時候,依照規定,如果應該要全程錄音錄影的,就要照做。"},{"start":343.88,"end":343.9,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":365.72,"end":388.098,"text":"他可能就會開始對司法產生質疑這一塊再麻煩部長能夠多處理好那再一些我想要請教的是人力的部分因為最近大家都一直在講警察官助理當然我知道我其實我常聽到以前的同事在抱怨說工作量真的現在太多了那所以說"},{"start":389.577,"end":417.922,"text":"有希望爭取檢察官助理這當然是善意可是你們有沒有想過就是檢視官現在沒有補滿的比例還蠻高的跟委員說明一下檢視官他要經過考試考試及格以後還要參加職權訓練所以雖然有缺額但是都是預控在要給這些要考試的要受訓的人用並不是說完全就擺在那裡不用但是他要一段時間"},{"start":418.962,"end":444.47,"text":"那現在立即要處理的就是打詐缺乏的人力所以我們才會用檢察官助理這樣來立即補足何況法官都有法官助理檢察官本來就應該也要在法院組織法要規定有檢察官助理所以我們在法制法之前希望就爭取行政院的支持確實行政院也支持我們看一下偵查的四個核心好了其實偵查四個核心就是"},{"start":445.55,"end":455.924,"text":"內勤外勤開庭跟寫書類這四個我想這四個是重點那請問一下夾關助理能夠能夠做到這幾個的哪一件事情"},{"start":457.214,"end":486.073,"text":"他只是一個輔助檢察官做行政事務的一個工作所以他是有範圍的限制的不像檢事官檢察事務官他是具有司法警察的身份他可以行使的職權是更寬廣那檢察官助理沒有他只是純粹的一個行政事務的協助而已所以當然要求是不同的工作的內容也不同"},{"start":488.154,"end":491.598,"text":"這幾年的離職率太高檢視官離職率也高檢察官的離職率也高我現在說的每一個東西我都不是"},{"start":514.421,"end":530.571,"text":"剪事觀的離職率這麼高有一個非常核心的問題是在於說沒有成就感因為剪事觀他雖然我們有有檢認檢認的那個職缺有主任檢察事務官但是目前都沒有25年了都沒有派嗎"},{"start":532.165,"end":552.379,"text":"那是不是說我當然知道了我也去思考過說派了之後會不會造成那個檢認的檢認的那個大增或者是說在人那個職缺就不走的這些問題但是除了這個之外是不是也要考量看要怎麼解決士氣低落的問題"},{"start":555.602,"end":570.049,"text":"檢視官的工作範圍確實很廣 而且能夠幫助警察官很多但是如果說像現在的狀況 他們士氣不高是不是我們有辦法去用其他制度 像我昨天在跟那個"},{"start":571.51,"end":571.53,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":593.781,"end":622.517,"text":"讓他能夠像譬如說副檢察官的這個制度那副檢察官制度當然可以類似像院方的那個司法事務官他做的某些東西他有一定的法律上效果他不會說像現在的檢事官他可能在沒有辦法取得這個完全的司法官的這個這個權責所以這部分再麻煩也能夠研議一下其實這個都只是為了要讓他們能夠更有更有動力"},{"start":624.246,"end":625.046,"text":"剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯"},{"start":649.872,"end":649.912,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員"},{"start":676.67,"end":678.892,"text":"謝謝委員的關心你非常了解我們檢查系統體系能力的狀況"},{"start":706.63,"end":706.664,"text":"本集完"},{"start":706.926,"end":736.015,"text":"那對於檢察官離職當然每個人他有他的生涯規劃像委員他離職了你就有很多很好的成就那有些人他有另外的規劃我們都予以尊重那至於說二專生三專生這個制度是在我上任之前就已經定案的我只是讓他執行一段時間以後適時的時候來做檢討那也許時間該檢討的時候我們會立即的檢討讓大家有看到自己的遠景"},{"start":736.935,"end":761.859,"text":"那至於這個檢視官的部分我們也給他有很多的鼓勵措施包括可以具有律師資格的讓他能夠轉任為檢察官那沒有律師資格我們也需要有一些鼓勵那未來像組長派的派組長組長一段時間有經驗的未來也可能派主任"},{"start":762.279,"end":765.601,"text":"蘇磊的製作上,蘇磊一直是檢察官工作量非常大的負荷之一"},{"start":784.431,"end":812.63,"text":"起訴的案子現在可能只有10%上下是不是說不起訴處分還是要用力去推廣做檢視因為現在訓練所裡面他沒有交很多檢視的部分那出來分發之後大家也沒有走檢視還是寫的漏漏等但是這個對於檢察官的偵查能量是會有影響的那你花很多時間在起訴書的製作我覺得這是舉雙手站著但是如果不起訴處分書"},{"start":814.111,"end":814.131,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":830.985,"end":857.885,"text":"有影響之外其實能簡化的就是要麻煩部長要用力推盡量簡化因為現在是檢察官負荷不了一堆檢察官來拜託我說一定要幫忙做那我這個會期接下來幾年我也一定會全力協助檢察官能夠降低一些工作量強化偵查品質但是也是要麻煩部裡面能夠多幫忙最後一張跟那個部長說明一下我覺得"},{"start":859.727,"end":878.848,"text":"這個有時候離開這個檢察官真的不是說隨波逐流或追求金錢權威啦不是這樣啦所以部長有一次在這個部長知道這個新聞我要說明一下啦因為我當時的這樣的說法我是在鼓勵留下來的人"},{"start":879.429,"end":894.301,"text":"因為大部分人是留下來的少數離開了他就一直在批評現在環境不好怎麼樣那我為了要鼓勵真正留下來願意在衛檢查體系來奮鬥的人我是這樣來鼓勵他們的那他們把解釋成我是在批評那些離開的人"},{"start":896.054,"end":896.194,"text":"委員吳宗憲"},{"start":918.952,"end":918.972,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":938.136,"end":938.497,"text":"謝謝委員給我機會說明"}]}},{"id":"149531","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149531","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe9ed3d8bdccb12c0c52afbb2d65d0dae1f8ba9b0039caa7a675552f8ea93320f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:25:24 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部長請"},{"start":11.601,"end":34.699,"text":"各位好部長好前幾天您到立法院來備詢那受訪時對外表示你說坦言擔憂兩岸敵意螺旋升高所以希望能夠避免戰爭嘛那因此從未挑起或挑釁不過如何用平和的方式來處理不光是軍方做決定還涉及政治跟外交"},{"start":36.12,"end":65.1,"text":"軍事是政治的延長,那政治有很多作為軍事不宜貿然躁進那我認同部長您說的這一段話那最近大家確實有很多人擔心兩岸的敵意不斷的升高我看到那個趙春山教授也說拖越久兩岸敵意螺旋持續上升所以如果大陸要對台灣動我一點也不驚訝那我想請教部長你為什麼覺得兩岸敵意會升高呢"},{"start":66.321,"end":81.459,"text":"因為我是多年看到這個狀況,當年我在自己做內心一個衡量比較以前沒有的現在都發生了,而且以前他也沒有講不承認中信,不承認這個那個,他現在竟然講出來,那這不就是一個"},{"start":84.08,"end":98.934,"text":"對﹖所以換言之就是先不管先把就是您在國防部的業務上所看到的吧你就覺得過去有些他們沒有做的現在都做了是不是那比方說第一個是什麼比方說具體的哪些"},{"start":107.947,"end":107.967,"text":"羅智強"},{"start":126.733,"end":144.626,"text":"所以我想部長也是在等於是為國家守衛安全的第一線所以親身感受到這一個敵意螺旋上升的一個激戰那我想請問您就是說您覺得目前政府端有哪些方式還有可能去降低敵意螺旋的呢"},{"start":145.89,"end":168.095,"text":"我講了軍事政治延長政治層面有很多問到我我提供意見沒有問到我的話我就強化我的戰備但是一切我們還是那句話就算提出意見他們也很清楚接受我提意見的人也很清楚不宜貿然挑起任何戰端這是大家共有共識這是絕對沒問題的"},{"start":170.08,"end":195.747,"text":"那趙春山教授所擔心的話就是動武也不意外你覺得目前的走向會有這個跡象嗎往動武的方向走嗎趙教授我也很敬佩他以前也接觸過他就按照這個常理來推嘛因為羅智強辦案升高了而且很多的意外的狀況萬一擦槍走火雖然再克制但難免萬一擦槍走火的話"},{"start":196.787,"end":197.247,"text":"我有一個感觸,我剛才從質詢陸委會過來"},{"start":223.789,"end":245.787,"text":"那我真的是這邊誠摯的希望就是說我們政府其他尤其跟兩岸有關的部門的部會能夠多跟我們的邱部長你請教因為我覺得事實上您的很多比較能夠去比較和緩收縮就是說能夠去當然也要顧住我們的國家安全的尊嚴的前提之下"},{"start":246.508,"end":271.779,"text":"那我覺得您的一些擔憂能不能也適時的傳遞給我們現在的行政團隊那我覺得目前看到有些做法上的話我覺得我是蠻肯定您目前對於就是兩岸之間的問題的一個處理的態度那我希望能夠也讓你這個態度不會是只有國防部或是您個人的態度也希望是政府來處理現在兩岸不斷衝突的一個態度那希望部長您能夠再加油一下"},{"start":272.039,"end":279.982,"text":"因為以前實際上比較沒有面對所謂第一級的問題因為兩岸關係在之前相對比較和緩所以那種所謂的越來越拉近這個所謂我們講的緩衝越來越小的情況比較少那我也聽到您說我們的第一級要件也改變了不等對方開槍開炮"},{"start":301.189,"end":319.2,"text":"那我想說這第1集要件有沒有辦法更明確告訴我們什麼情況之下我們會第1集我跟委員報告當初的定第1集要由部長來決定要反制的這個命令是當初在湯部長他會要承擔責任但我們現在改這個第1集他通常一聽到第1集"},{"start":321.221,"end":335.606,"text":"在目前環境的變化,灰色地帶的洗澡,我們看到方法很多,不見得開槍開炮,所以我就把它界定為一個航空器材,或者海航的一個實體"},{"start":337.262,"end":338.443,"text":"謝謝羅智強委員：部長請回"}]}},{"id":"149530","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149530","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe3b035a476e2c179a3ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a68a83d6b4086f51895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:21:01 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王部長好剛剛邱志偉講我們離岸婚禮的國產化我記得在沈中興部長的時候我理智都提出來那邱志偉委員講的話是一個很切實的事情56隻只有6隻在台灣做我當時都有提出來你們說不會啦我們怎麼樣現在連訂單都不發給我們國產的產商"},{"start":49.702,"end":55.95,"text":"剛剛出座的時候北部那一家的實力政商關係非常好我只跟部長提醒一件事情"},{"start":57.801,"end":81.502,"text":"當時為了離岸風力我們要趕快去完成五十六隻、六隻在台灣慢慢磨其他的都在韓國湊因為渥西有在韓國有設工廠啊到最後沒有辦法大家就迷迷糊糊這樣過去我們都一清二楚講了你們也不聽以後我們再批評你其實他講的完全是對要注意這樣的一個現象"},{"start":83.203,"end":102.393,"text":"因為很多的業界反映出來國產化機械設備下來買肉你們不下定餐你們被那種大財團被外國人把台灣當作殖民地的公司這樣你難得好過關於講了好幾次我希望調查我們也會去了解好不好"},{"start":102.912,"end":104.852,"text":"今天委員會主要是討論我們台電電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊配套的一個措施在"},{"start":133.223,"end":144.25,"text":"我看過你們的報告你們只要講國際燃料價格飆漲是台電虧損的主要原因這台電你又談到二五戰爭以後台電過敏從2020年64塊美元到2020年276美元漲了3倍中油的那個"},{"start":159.776,"end":188.81,"text":"那個天然氣每立方由8塊錢漲到16塊錢漲了一倍啊所以裡面2023年國際燃料價格雖然有回穩但是遲於高檔回穩跟高檔你跟我解釋一下回穩是回到以前的樣子還是說我在高檔董事長會給我一個介紹因為打來打去打到現在大家沒有人去啊"},{"start":189.974,"end":192.116,"text":"我第一個要檢討台電的人才都很優秀"},{"start":219.082,"end":238.953,"text":"你們台電購買都是長期合約,怎麼這現在突然漲了3倍啊?哇媽,去掉太雄啊,你也要去捏果魚蝦!我們是長期合約的夥伴,啊中油也是一樣!長期購買那幾個地方幾個地方,把你氣到管你不會跳啊!任人宰割啊!"},{"start":239.953,"end":242.434,"text":"跟委員報告齁,那個是平均價在2022的時候齁,那個現貨曾經漲到400多塊但是因為我們產業價跟現貨有一定的比例啦你用現貨價來比,啊你產業價也要降下來嘛有有,就是因為有產業價才200多塊是"},{"start":267.521,"end":284.172,"text":"你們說兩年虧錢的六千億好,我算賬給你們聽第一個我們一千五百億的補貼公務預算五百億的特別預算現在你增資又一千億加起來兩千"},{"start":286.343,"end":287.544,"text":"你2022年你電價調了8%你說大概會增加300億的收入"},{"start":312.594,"end":319.478,"text":"2023年又調了11%．你們報告會增加600億的收入．加加押才要多少錢．這樣加押給你到4千6千億減這個政府補貼．還有定位調價的上場．1千億這樣起來您現在才虧損兩千億"},{"start":333.68,"end":353.733,"text":"阿兩千要來得你講齁那個再生能源佔了九百億這裡面如果依照你們收價的成本大概你多付出了四百億這來得你說阿只佔了沒有什麼影響所謂的價包括民間的電廠在這裡面現在你給他兩千要給虧損喔"},{"start":356.516,"end":384.475,"text":"政府補貼3千億兩次電價的上漲將近1千億除了2千億所以我不知道你這個小安若生那你這個小波塊董事長我很尊敬你尤其你跟我講說跑到我好望角去剛剛發生火災我曉得除了大概只差你兩個小時你對我的承諾好你有機智我會很感謝你但是這樣一帳一帳歸一帳來算啊"},{"start":387.037,"end":407.555,"text":"所以你現在這個小破怪是什麼替蔡英文總統匯合政策辯論其實很多錯誤在這邊你是現在我們未來新任的賴清晨總清理戰場拿出來實際算下來你們在包括"},{"start":409.485,"end":433.953,"text":"再生能源大概你們兩年多買了一千億剩下只有一千億所以現在要跟你說能源政策調不適用我給你算一算不是你虧錢國家補貼你說為了穩定民生物價你當小破塊我看不是你是當蔡英文總統的小破塊當未來賴清德的總統清理戰鬥團的小破塊所以說來給你補貼吧"},{"start":438.954,"end":461.299,"text":"你現在要漲當然要有合理漲的一個程度但是這個都很浮動你幾十年沒在說我核能證會有絕對不會漲價跟今天一個高了一個段落蔡英文總統也要下台了好啦都是你給我們不漲我先把責任歸給他替他得錢得錢得錢這個報告裡面你們財務的問題"},{"start":466.04,"end":486.594,"text":"補貼了三千億還有你電價漲價了大概又增加了一千億兩千億兩千億再生能源大概兩年的話一千億多的支出大概只剩下一千億還講得很子逆道德我說為了什麼穩定物價"},{"start":496.952,"end":507.877,"text":"我來看一下你寫的原來反應成本、照顧民生、穩定物價、節能減碳、使用者互惠我可以講十多大句現在你電價"},{"start":509.69,"end":529.357,"text":"你天然劑要不要漲?你水要不要漲?那天我看高金素美在質詢我們的陳院長的時候他說三次漲價還講到馬英九馬英九總統就是漲價讓國民黨都整個落選現在你們清理戰場用這一套"},{"start":530.421,"end":532.905,"text":"你們現在頂多只負債一千億而已啊!"},{"start":543.254,"end":547.939,"text":"你2022年漲價8%增加400億2023年電費漲價、成本漲價600億你們自己寫的不會預計收入"},{"start":565.36,"end":574.905,"text":"那個跟委員報告那個增資的2500億不是補貼啦這個要跟您報告這個在虧損上面他沒有辦法打累虧我們現在如果是照委員的講法你看我們現在就是累虧3000多億對不對"},{"start":582.469,"end":600.189,"text":"你累計3000多月我現在算一月就這賬面成本你有兩次漲價大概你們台電多收了一千億因為台電人生財太好每一個人太牡蠣你們被政策所迫害的啦所以你們都苦不堪言大家不要講話而已啊"},{"start":601.07,"end":611.778,"text":"我是跟你講的老實話我這個選民生產你就知道到底虧損多少好不好因為你一直急著要來我這邊叫我朝廷我要說什麼說好 謝謝 謝謝謝謝 接下來我們請賴瑞榮"}]}},{"id":"149529","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149529","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe1bca7f6f82b8b536a2c0e3c4ee948455f8ba9b0039caa7a6396dcc70422ddb965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"11:16:00 - 11:28:57","影片長度":"00:12:57","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":777,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:28:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:16:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":477,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（11時16分）請蕭院長。"],["主席：好，請院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：林委員早。"],["林委員倩綺：辛苦了，不曉得您還記不記得院長跟本席是在什麼樣的場合下認識的？"],["蕭院長宗煌：很早了，從高雄縣文化局局長開始，你換到了新北市文化局局長也是，我們都有互動往來。"],["林委員倩綺：是，所以我對您的印象非常深，是我人生很難忘記的一個人，請大家不要多想，我接下來要講的才是重點。我們第一次見面是在中華民國文化盃桌球比賽上，賽前有同仁跟我做了一些提醒，但我不信邪，我認為我的乒乓球球技可能沒有那麼差，結果沒想到就在你淡定的身影下把我殺得落花流水。"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮的高手更多。"],["林委員倩綺：賽前我同仁們告訴我說通常只要碰到博物館的，大概我們都沒有機會了，因為他們至少能夠相對比較正常在朝九晚五的上班情況下，文化局的通常不僅要朝九，可能晚九都還不夠，所以我後來就很清楚的認知了這點，因此對您印象非常深，不過您的球技真的很好，您的記憶也很好。我也很樂見在這樣的情況中您還能夠很穩健的這樣升遷，實在是文化界一件很重要的事情。","接下來我要請教院長，不曉得您覺得故宮最重要的文化商品除了翠玉白菜、肉形石和毛公鼎外，我們印象中最夯的有什麼樣的文化商品？"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮基本上來講有所謂的人氣國寶，人氣國寶就是早期所謂的故宮三寶，那時教科書上的就是翠玉白菜、肉形石和毛公鼎，但故宮自己認定的北宋三寶是范寬的谿山行旅、李唐的萬壑松風和郭熙的早春圖，這三張作品在繪畫史上是無可匹敵的重要。另外……"],["林委員倩綺：院長講的應該是行話，我們知道我們都選過故宮三寶，研究員的故宮三寶和一般民間認知的故宮三寶雖然有落差，可是都有它的價值。這幾年來大家印象最深的，不知道院長有沒有聽過「朕知道了」？"],["蕭院長宗煌：有，這是屬於文獻類的檔案資料，它作為一個文創商品是賣得很夯，是沒有錯。"],["林委員倩綺：是的，我有帶學生去過，東南亞的學生也都搶購這樣的商品，您曉得它的產值大概有多少嗎？因為這是院內的資料。就算不知道也沒有關係，我的PTT上面，大家看到「朕知道了」那個膠帶大概200塊，據說兩年內至少已經成功的賣出14萬套，這樣的榮景在2013年左右讓我們知道原來文化商品的行銷和產值可以達到讓我們期待的量能。先不要講這200塊的「朕知道了」膠帶，其它的再乘起來應該是非常多，如果有可能，我也期待知道這樣的一個數量。在「朕知道了」之後，不知道故宮有沒有像這樣量能這麼高的文化商品並讓大家有記憶的？"],["蕭院長宗煌：這是一個衍生性的、直接由我們典藏的圖檔資料裡面衍生的，另外一種衍生商品在去年引發熱潮的是庫柏力克熊，基本上來講是排隊購買的商品，在故宮過去是沒有的。"],["林委員倩綺：不好意思，什麼熊？沒有關係，聽起來是一個很可愛的商品。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，是一個公仔。"],["林委員倩綺：但這部分本席沒有像「朕知道了」這樣的聽說，我認為像「朕知道了」這樣一個很棒的商品已經邁入第11年，這個部分的投入大家可以再省思，是否可以請故宮透過我們的文化商品將故宮很重要的華夏文化的價值傳到全世界？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告一下，其實我們現在在另外進行一個衍生性的，不見得直接從商品裡面出發，比如昨天我們跟臺灣幾家茶葉廠商合作，要建立共同的品牌，聯名品牌的話，簡單的講法其實是我們目前獲利的主力。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，講到這個我覺得不僅您很忙，連故宮的同仁都很忙。茶這件事情我們從小就接觸了，它當然可以是在地很重要的一項文化，我們知道南院也將茶打成一個主題，但是我覺得大家都非常辛苦，以故宮這樣一個國際性的定位，你們的業務其實還滿辛苦的。我耳聞院長好忙跟我們的同仁好忙，很辛苦的，我知道您真的好忙，但在這個過程中我知道您忙得其實是有一些意義，但外傳的跟本席所瞭解的可能有一些落差，我在這邊基本上期待院長可以做一個釐清，我聽到有人說您好忙，忙著要當文化部長，您覺得要怎麼回應這個問題？"],["蕭院長宗煌：報告委員，我原來跟陳院長說我要退休了，陳院長說既然你要退休表示沒有後顧之憂，能不能去故宮那邊看看有什麼問題，幫忙處理一下。我既然答應院長，故宮就是我最後一個公職，不會再有其他考量。"],["林委員倩綺：我想文化界對您很有期待，既然這是您最後一個公職，我相信一個歷史定位對您一定非常重要，我也非常期待，當然有些東西會令您覺得很兩難，我是耳聞故宮目前的狀況，大家對您未來的走向有一些傳言，既然您在這邊已經談到您目前規劃故宮會是您最後一個工作，但我期待，我相信文化界對您都有期待，未來的事情我們不知道，但是對於您要有一個歷史定位，有關故宮成立100年的計畫，我在今天早上才拿到的業務報告中沒有看到，院裡這邊是不是可以告訴我到底是在哪裡？"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮百年計畫基本上是一個歷程，並不是一個計畫或是其他特別的，只是說在……"],["林委員倩綺：我覺得它是滿重要的。"],["蕭院長宗煌：是，很重要。"],["林委員倩綺：就像我們建國百年也會慶祝，故宮百年應該非常重要，而且以故宮的脈絡來講，其實故宮最主要就是北京故宮的東西統統都被我們搬來到臺灣。"],["蕭院長宗煌：沒有統統。"],["林委員倩綺：所以請問一下故宮的100年，你們打算慶祝100年，還是一甲子？"],["蕭院長宗煌：應該這樣講，1925年北京故宮成立，1965年臺北故宮成立，2015年嘉義故宮成立，所以一個是100年，一個是60年，一個是10年。"],["林委員倩綺：聽起來很完美，都正好是一個能大肆慶祝的時間。我必須提醒故宮第一筆成立的經費，我們都知道羅浮宮也是因為先有人捐贈，後來開始法國文化大革命之後，產生這樣的一個博物館風潮，所以第一筆經費我必須幫國民黨講一些話，是蔣介石委員所捐贈的，也是你們故宮博物院網站所寫的，在100年前10月10日，也是我們的國慶日，成立故宮博物院並公開展覽，後來我們在一甲子之前來到臺灣，我想請問這個部分不值得慶祝嗎？大家講了很多新故宮計畫，可是在這樣的一個歷史的時間點，我們是不是應該正視故宮100年這件事情？我深切的期待，這個100年是故宮很重要的一個里程碑，我們可以透過這樣的機會，包括我剛剛聽到院長跟本黨的委員在談我們跟國外的交流，那如果跟捷克的交流目前已經忙得這麼灰頭土臉的話，請問故宮100年呢？尤其對於華夏文化，我作為原住民來談談漢人的文化，這個部份是非常重要的，至少對我而言應該是非常重要的，我看不到這個100年，也沒有看到任何和這個100年相關的資訊，這對我們來講、對華夏文化來講，情何以堪？所以我期待故宮，包括南院，不要斷裂了華夏文化。我知道茶在臺灣是很重要的，本席其實以前一直學茶，對於茶的文化有長期的關注，所以在南院我們展示了茶，然後以宗教為主，整個主題其實是有點脫離華夏文化的一個脈絡，所以我期待故宮南院不要斷裂華夏文化的歷史，作為一個原住民這樣對你們講，我想大家應該不用再吵了吧？","最後，早上聽到有很多人對你有一些責難，我在這幾年的過程當中，包括您在教育的推廣上，我覺得其實是真的要幫你說句話。故宮的指導委員會在107年莫名其妙地在我們可能沒有注意到的狀況當中被廢止了，結果大家的責難統統到你身上，你是難得在這樣一個動亂的情況當中，能繼續穩定升遷的官員，我想文化界都有很大的期待，所以你不要一個人擔負這個責任，好不好？可不可以恢復指導委員會，讓大家一起來共同決策？其實很多事情，你有你的專業，我們知道有博物館跟美術館的專業，但是恢復指導委員會可以讓大家一起來參與故宮的決策，你也不用一個人擔，我相信你對地方的新制絕對非常有誠意的，但如果沒有辦法用行政命令恢復指導委員會的話，我可能就要提出修改故宮組織法。所以這件事情是一定要做的，我不希望你一個人擔太多，因為在未來的幾個月當中，我相信你應該會有一個很重要的歷史地位，我知道第一件事情對你很兩難，但是作為一個原住民，故宮成立100年的慶祝計畫，今年我們一定要看到，要不然在預算的部分，我們可能就必須要有很大的溝通。接下來，不要一個人擔負這樣的責任，你這麼棒的一個藝術家跟行政管理的官員，我期待恢復指導委員會，讓我們一起來創造故宮100年的榮景，好嗎？最後祝福你大滿貫。"],["蕭院長宗煌：謝謝委員，我們會來研議。"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員。果然是兵乓球打下好情緣，很好！謝謝院長。","請郭委員昱晴。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","陳冠廷"],"page_start":323,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130801_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.814093750000001,"end":12.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.14721875,"end":13.058468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.011593750000003,"end":18.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.180343750000002,"end":16.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.44159375,"end":23.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.85846875,"end":23.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.28034375,"end":31.047218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.29596875,"end":38.978468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.978468750000005,"end":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我也很樂見說在這樣子的一個情況中您還能夠很穩健的這樣升遷實在是我們文化界的一個很重要的事情"},{"start":111.382,"end":130.732,"text":"接下來我想請教一下院長不曉得您覺得我們故宮最重要的文化商品除了翠玉白菜還有肉形石跟毛公鼎以外在我們印象中最夯的有什麼樣子的文化商品?"},{"start":133.659,"end":160.124,"text":"故宮基本上來講的話有所謂人氣國寶人氣國寶的話就早期的所謂的什麼故宮三寶那時候教科書上有的就是翠白菜肉形石然後還有毛公頂但是故宮自己認定的北宋三寶的話是宦寬的西山行李圖李堂的萬貨送風跟郭熙的早春圖這三張作品的話其實在繪畫史上的話是無可匹敵的一個重要"},{"start":160.784,"end":177.913,"text":"所以那個院長講的應該是韓話那我們知道我們都選過這個故宮三寶那研究員的故宮三寶跟一般民間認知的故宮三寶雖然有落差可是都有它的價值但是呢一般大家可能在這幾年來印象最深的不知道院長有沒有聽過鄭知道了"},{"start":180.934,"end":201.042,"text":"有,因為這是屬於文獻列的檔案資料,所以它作為一個文創商品是賣得很夯是嗎?是的,因為我也帶學生去過,然後東南亞的學生也都搶購這樣子的一個商品。不知道您曉得它的產值大概有多少嗎?因為這是院內的資料。"},{"start":203.343,"end":226.946,"text":"好了就算不知道也沒關係我的PP上面大家看到那個膠袋正知道的膠袋大概200塊那據說兩年內至少已經成功的賣出14萬套所以這樣子的一個龍井在2013年左右讓我們看到了原來文化商品的這樣一個行銷或者是產值是可以達到某一種讓我們期待的"},{"start":227.97,"end":230.332,"text":"姑公有沒有像這樣子量能這麼高的文化商品讓大家有記憶的?"},{"start":251.691,"end":275.441,"text":"這是一個衍生性的直接由我們的典藏的圖檔資料裡面衍生的可是另外一種衍生商品的話其實在去年引起熱潮的是庫克柏利克熊就是說基本上來講的話是排隊購買的商品不好意思什麼熊啊抱歉在好沒有關係沒有關係那我想聽起來是一個很可愛的商品對是一個公仔"},{"start":276.501,"end":302.743,"text":"對,那是一個公仔但這個部分呢本席沒有像這個正知到了這樣子的一個聽說所以那這個部分我認為正知到了這樣一個很棒的商品在這已經邁入第11年那我覺得這個部分的投入大家可以再省思所以這個部分是不是可以請這個故宮讓我們的文化商品"},{"start":303.752,"end":330.932,"text":"能將故宮的很重要的華夏文化的價值傳到全世界跟委員報告一下其實我們現在在進行另外一個就是說衍生性的就不見得直接從商品裡面出發所以我們昨天的話譬如說跟台灣的幾家的那個茶葉的廠商然後我們在合作要建立共同的品牌這個部分的話就是聯名品牌的話其實是我們"},{"start":333.233,"end":360.432,"text":"簡單的講話叫做目前獲利的主力謝謝講到這個我覺得不僅您好忙那個連我想故宮的同仁都很忙那茶這件事情我們從小就接觸了那它當然可以是我們在地很重要一項文化那我們知道在南院也把茶打成一個主題那但是我覺得大家都非常的辛苦以故宮這樣子一個國際性的定位你們的業務其實還蠻辛苦的"},{"start":362.392,"end":384.617,"text":"所以我就耳聞那個院長好忙跟我們同仁好忙但是這個很辛苦的院長我知道您真的很忙但是在這個過程當中我知道您忙的其實是有某一些意義但是這個外傳的跟本席所了解的可能有一些落差我在這邊基本上期待院長這邊可以做一個釐清因為我聽到有人說這個您好忙然後忙著要當文化部長"},{"start":390.038,"end":416.542,"text":"您覺得您要怎麼回應我這個問題?報告委員我原來跟陳院長說我要退休陳院長說既然你要退休表示沒有後顧之憂能不能去故宮那邊看看有什麼問題幫忙處理一下我既然答應院長就是故宮是我最後一個公職我不會再有其他的考量"},{"start":417.102,"end":438.848,"text":"我想文化界會對你很有期待啦那既然是您最後一個公職我相信一個歷史定位一定對你非常的重要那我也非常的期待當然有些東西會令你覺得很兩難所以我是那個耳聞那個故宮的這個目前的一個狀況大家對你這樣子的一個未來的走向"},{"start":439.648,"end":456.641,"text":"有一些傳言那既然您在這邊已經談到如果你目前的規劃故宮會是您最後一個工作但是我期待我相信文化界對你都有期待那未來事情我們不知道但是我在這邊對於您要有一個歷史定位那我猜想"},{"start":458.022,"end":470.759,"text":"我確定故宮成立100年的這樣一個計畫我今天早上才拿到的這個業務報告裡面沒有看到我想是不是院裡面這邊可以告訴我到底是在哪裡"},{"start":473.608,"end":494.167,"text":"故宮百年計畫基本上來講的話它是一個歷程它並不是一個計畫或是一個特別的只是說在我覺得它是蠻重要的啦像我們建國百年也會慶祝然後故宮百年應該非常的重要而且以故宮的脈絡來講這個"},{"start":495.888,"end":520.235,"text":"其實故宮最主要就是北京故宮的東西通通都被我們搬來到台灣那所以請問一下故宮的這個100年你們打算慶祝100年還是一甲子應該這樣講就是1925年北京故宮成立然後1965年台北故宮成立然後2015年那個嘉義故宮成立所以一個是100一個是60一個是10"},{"start":522.917,"end":543.872,"text":"聽起來很完美啊都正好是一個能大肆慶祝的時間所以我必須提醒故宮在第一筆成立的經費我們都知道羅浮宮也是因為先有人捐贈然後開始因為法國文化大革命之後產生了這樣一個博物館的風潮所以第一筆經費其實我必須幫國民黨講些話"},{"start":547.274,"end":560.99,"text":"這是我們蔣介石委員所捐贈的那是在100對不起那個100年前那個故宮也是你們故宮博物院網站寫的10月10日那也是我們的國慶日成立故宮博物院然後公開展覽"},{"start":561.991,"end":577.724,"text":"然後後來我們在一甲子之前來到了台灣那我想請問一下那這一個部分不值得慶祝嗎大家講了很多新故宮計畫可是在這樣一個歷史的時間點我們是不是應該正視這件事情那故宮100年"},{"start":579.545,"end":604.78,"text":"我深切的期待這個一百年是一個故宮很重要的一個里程碑那我們可以透過這樣一個機會包括我剛才聽到那個院長跟我們本黨的委員在談我們跟國外的交流那如果你們捷克的這個交流目前已經忙得這個這麼灰頭土臉的話那請問故宮一百年尤其是對於華夏文化我作為一個原住民來談談漢人的文化那這個"},{"start":608.243,"end":625.2,"text":"這個部分是非常重要至少對我而言我覺得應該是非常重要的那我看不到這個100年也沒有看到任何跟100年有關的相關資訊那這對我們來講對華夏文化來講情何以堪所以我期待那個故宮不要讓這個包括南院"},{"start":626.341,"end":652.723,"text":"斷裂了華夏文化我知道茶在台灣是很重要本席其實以前一直學茶對茶的文化有長期的關注所以當然在南院呢我們展示了茶然後以這個宗教為主以整個的主題其實是有點脫離了華夏文化的一個脈絡所以我期待是不是故宮南院不要斷裂了華夏文化的歷史作為一個原住民這樣對你們講我想應該大家不用再吵了嘛"},{"start":654.004,"end":666.248,"text":"最後我早上聽到很多人都對你有一些責難我在這幾年的過程當中包括您在教育推廣上我都覺得其實是真的應該幫你說一句話所以你是不是有可能我們這個"},{"start":670.789,"end":685.22,"text":"故宮的指導委員會在107年莫名其妙的也在我們的朋友可能沒有注意到的狀況當中就被廢止了那結果大家的責難通通到你的身上那你這麼樣一個難得在這樣一個動亂情況當中能夠繼續持續穩定升遷的"},{"start":690.143,"end":690.163,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":705.845,"end":723.511,"text":"回復指導委員會其實是可以讓大家一起來參與故宮的決策那你也不用一個人擔那我相信你對這個地方的心是絕對非常的誠意的所以如果沒有辦法用回復這個指導委員會的一個行政命令的話我可能就要提出這個修改故宮組織法"},{"start":724.791,"end":739.087,"text":"所以這件事情是一定要做的那我不希望你一個人擔太多因為在未來的幾個月當中我相信你應該會有一個很重要的歷史地位所以我期待我知道第一件事情對你很兩難但是作為一個原住民"},{"start":740.068,"end":766.12,"text":"華夏文化故宮成立100年的慶祝計畫今年我們一定要看到要不然在預算的部分我們可能就必須要有很大的溝通接下來不要一個人擔負這樣一個責任你這麼棒的一個藝術家跟行政管理的官員期待恢復指導委員會讓我們一起來創造故宮100年的榮景好嗎那最後祝福你大滿貫"},{"start":768.555,"end":775.325,"text":"謝謝委員 我們會來演繹 謝謝委員好 謝謝我們林委員 果然是乒乓球打架好情緣很好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149528","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149528","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe0ae36045e7e602ebdc62c46c87ca327ff8ba9b0039caa7a6de18489586e083145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:19:53 - 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我們請陸委會邱主委好 我們有請邱主委 謝謝"},{"start":11.734,"end":34.418,"text":"謝謝主委 確實這個陸配跟以及其他外配到底這個入籍中華民國國籍需要多少時間真的需要整體性的考量那每一位選區選出來的委員他其實身上都有非常非常多的案例比如說曾經協助過相關的案例那認為怎麼樣可以去改善那或者是我舉兩個案例我一個同學"},{"start":37.699,"end":63.814,"text":"他娶了他們去英國留學之後回來跟一個香港女孩結婚結婚的時候才發現當然後來才知道這位在香港長大的女孩就是我同學的老婆她其實是英國籍所以說香港籍跟英國籍要進要入中華民國戶籍的標準就不一樣了對不對好另外一個我的同學嫁到美國"},{"start":64.841,"end":79.497,"text":"那他先生在美國工作那進來台灣當然也有討論過小朋友入籍的問題等等的那是不是難度就更大了又有更多的問題有一個讓人很感動的例子齁"},{"start":80.626,"end":96.137,"text":"一個年輕人那他們也是國外念書之後他跟他老婆結婚那老婆在成都在成都工作那先生也到成都到我們臺灣某大廠也一起工作在那裡生了小孩"},{"start":96.937,"end":115.265,"text":"但是包含這個阿公啦他也很堅持說你在小孩在中國出生那要算中國籍嗎那如果不要算中國籍的話他要怎麼樣回來台灣規劃台灣的戶籍而且又遇到疫情期間你知道多辛苦"},{"start":115.985,"end":136.198,"text":"在疫情期間呢他就在中國的這個出生證明拿到之後還拿一個未入籍中國的證明拿這個未入籍的中國的證明再拿著一個臨時出入臨時出入海關的這個通行證一次進一次出而且在他短短的這個年假裡面回來台灣"},{"start":137.78,"end":146.22,"text":"父親已經被除籍了先申請附籍然後再來趕快來辦小孩的這個戶籍然後再來趕快把小孩辦護照"},{"start":148.215,"end":174.554,"text":"當然這個臺胞證這個時間我們沒有辦法去協助臺胞證還是等到他們回到中國去工作的時候在當地的這個當位去辦理臺胞證未來這個臺灣 臺灣嬰仔才可以讓他們這樣帶回來臺灣算臺灣人這種種的故事非常多吼包含這個兩岸之間的這些故事包含這個到底這些外國其他的國籍的人"},{"start":175.454,"end":200.314,"text":"進入臺灣戶籍的這一些過程裡面其實有非常多的故事但是重點是一個就是我剛剛聽了很多委員做了這個比較之後那邱主委這邊的看法還是一樣就是本國陸籍跟外國籍跟其他國籍我們必須要一併的來做考量來主委這一些通盤的考量當然在這邊可能講不完"},{"start":200.934,"end":228.023,"text":"但是確實牽涉到第一個國安第二個健保的議題是必須要不是誰說的對但是我們也把這些問題拿出來讓大家來參考一下讓國人來評斷一下到底這些問題是什麼首先國安反滲透法國安法等等的這些問題確實會讓所有的陸配在台灣會有一點點政治上的一些"},{"start":229.103,"end":252.494,"text":"顧忌這個是在香港已經在發生的第二個健保的議題我舉我在2019年曾經在高雄選舉的場合裡面來提出當年國民黨的委員在立法院提案修改兩岸人民關係條例第16條符合強照資格的陸級的陸配的"},{"start":253.875,"end":260.562,"text":"父母親可以申請來台灣使用台灣的長照的這些相關的服務等等的"},{"start":261.298,"end":286.146,"text":"當然國民黨的這個案例呢他在提案之後的兩個禮拜內撤案了那我也知道現在國民黨委員也已經又提案了修改兩岸人民關係條例第17條並且拿來跟這個外國人要入籍台灣的外國配偶要入籍台灣的來做相關的比較那我先講我在2019年後來我被告了忘記了"},{"start":288.629,"end":305.144,"text":"我被告的當然我們這個臺灣我們是中華民國是法治的國家被告一定是進入司法程序有檢察官叫我去問問說當初為什麼要把這一件案子披露對方說他已經撤案了你為什麼還是要講出來我想"},{"start":306.092,"end":331.719,"text":"既然在立法院已經在立法院的公報上面有這個提案有這個緣由也有其他委員簽名那就需要承認這個事實你有這個提案的動機後來在得到高雄地檢署的不起訴處分是在選後的三個月內高雄地檢署就給我不起訴處分不起訴處分的我在講他還是繼續告"},{"start":333.079,"end":359.975,"text":"還是繼續告告到高檢署在2020年的8月4號我收到高檢署不起訴處分的確定那裡面的內容是這樣子寫的就主管機關台灣是屬兩岸條例第16條雖然規範大陸地區人民來台所謂申請制主管機關有權"},{"start":361.877,"end":368.177,"text":"有博准權限也就是剛剛其他委員講到的我們一年60位但是"},{"start":370.185,"end":392.654,"text":"我所擔心的就是我是被告所擔心的侵蝕健保的疑慮就是會造成侵蝕健保的疑慮所以給我不起訴處分這個是2020年8月4號我們高檢署對於這一個上一次中國國民黨要提案修改兩岸人民關係條例第16條的記錄在這裡我是當事人"},{"start":397.199,"end":417.006,"text":"那所以說對於目前要討論的這個我覺得不一定說走到法院或不一定等到可能下一次選舉是4年之後又有相關的法院的認證我想我們現在就詳實的對於我們在國會公開的把這些利害都說明出來"},{"start":417.886,"end":446.782,"text":"讓所有的國人知道修改兩岸人民關係條例的路配的年限到底造成健保的哪一些影響或者到底國安造成國安的哪一些影響甚至我們其他新住民委員認為他們應該有哪一些權益也應該要比照兩岸人民關係條例裡面的路配等等的我想這些都一併的必須要拿出來做討論的最後其實邱主委在這個陸委會主委期間我看"},{"start":447.332,"end":447.772,"text":"最後請主委就"},{"start":476.126,"end":496.558,"text":"這個潘朵拉的盒子來評論一下到底這個陸配以及外配最大最大你認為在這一個事件裡面的修法的過程裡面我們要怎麼樣推動可以照顧到陸配而且也可以讓外配覺得我們有相同的權利"},{"start":498.579,"end":514.687,"text":"確實感謝委員提供一些過去的一些案例給我們做一些參考不過我要講的就是確實站在陸委會的立場我們希望能夠再凝聚社會更多的共識因為這個特別是我們最擔心的就是比較表一出來"},{"start":516.648,"end":534.516,"text":"陸培不是壞人,但是我們希望可以同等照顧他們所以我們不希望把陸培拿來當大家變成是無樣的第三者所以這也就是說我們第一個希望大家審慎要評估利弊得失因為這個連動下去還有很多的法制也要跟著修這個是知識體大"},{"start":537.377,"end":558.696,"text":"對岸我們當然都理解對岸他要軍事崛起強國那我們當然這是人家的國家政策但是如果他造成大家的緊張採取的手段又是過去所沒有的不管是武力的威脅貿易的報復什麼等等我想這個都不是一個文明國家所所有的應有的作為"},{"start":560.637,"end":571.667,"text":"臺灣還是本質我們不會挑釁當然我們也不會這個現在國際最大的共識就是希望維持兩岸我想蔡總統的所謂的維持現狀這樣的一個路線基本上獲得國際很多的支持所以我想我們會秉持這樣的一個路線繼續的來維護兩岸的這樣的和平"},{"start":581.795,"end":582.015,"text":"丁薛忠委員"}]}},{"id":"149526","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149526","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe40f40daba5d77b5552afbb2d65d0dae1f8ba9b0039caa7a6482c983ede377c945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:16:05 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重要的我想這也是國防部這幾年很努力在做到的居民溝通那這一次的質詢也是居民溝通的一個很重要的部分那很多民眾關心國防的民眾也會透過這樣子的方式來知道國防部未來對我們戰略的一些具體的做法"},{"start":67.43,"end":88.979,"text":"還有一些國防部跟我們民眾生活相關的部分我們也希望再透過這次質詢能夠得到一些意見首先我是想針對國防部的這些跟對國家的警報的具體做法我想大家應該很清楚的知道說去年的今年的1月9號那中共有發射衛星"},{"start":89.739,"end":90.079,"text":"﹚陳冠廷"},{"start":107.546,"end":125.077,"text":"向人民說明警報的標準是什麼統一的應變程序是什麼讓民眾能夠更加清楚的知道相關的資訊接收到資訊之後相關的導引也非常重要他知道民眾下一步要做什麼這方面是不是可以請部長來簡單跟我們說明一下"},{"start":126.698,"end":156.238,"text":"我跟委員報告,雖然1月份發生這個事情造成很大的誤解,我們也依據實況來做一個檢討改進的,以後發布,我們現在有改變最具體的做法,只要美方它有聯邦太空單位,它一公布了,我們也接公告,但我們要不要發警報就看,因為它公告是一個經緯度,發射地點經過哪裡,它有經緯度,如果逾越這個範圍了,跟我們研判有偏差了,"},{"start":156.978,"end":184.971,"text":"我們就發警報,這個做法沒有變,內容我們也在強化,這是第一個。第二個,發了以後,至於這個一般的民眾要怎麼做,這個我想我們為了要成立這個全民防衛動員署的,這是一個災害防救一種作為,因為有災害來了,民眾要怎麼處理,所以這個警告就等於已經可以表達加劇化,請民眾進入什麼掩蔽物啊等等,這個我們可以加進去了,但是要考量到"},{"start":187.182,"end":191.984,"text":"謝謝部長我之所以問這個問題是因為國家警報的這個重要度還有它的這個平凡性可能會引起民眾的一些擔憂所以"},{"start":204.409,"end":231.616,"text":"我們必須要在真正在迫切需要立即做處置的時候才有相關的指引這樣民眾才不會過於擔心我想這方面不僅是國防部跟其他的部門跟防災相關的應變天災也都在裡面那我希望是能夠有更完整的跨部會的討論那未來在防災指引上面警報後續的指引我想這個也不是國防部一個部門就要處理的事情那是要跨部會的也希望未來"},{"start":232.056,"end":232.256,"text":"國防創新委員會主席"},{"start":255.883,"end":275.67,"text":"提供美國國防部長相關的建議的一個委員會那他的組成包含商業啊研究機構啊學界一些重要的像Google的前執行長那個艾力克史密特也是其中的一員那這些重要的商業科技巨頭我認為是可以提供國防部非常及時的質詢"},{"start":276.73,"end":299.365,"text":"為什麼這麼說?因為我們也知道說現在的資訊的傳播還有這些技術的這些進步已經是超越我們想像的那國防部包含美國國防部也是一樣那他們想要做革新想要更快速的裝備想要更快速的採用民間的技術或者釋出軍用的技術給民間其實都是需要更快速的方式快速裝備快速部署"},{"start":300.726,"end":327.137,"text":"作為一個公民一個平民因為我們不是軍人那我們當然是希望說國防部能夠用更快的速度來去協助我們相關的商業科技人才的組合所以我想要請教部長您怎麼看這樣子的委員會我覺得這一個很好的委員會他不管怎麼樣他從不同的角度提供他的國防部跟我們一樣我們有很多智庫但能夠提供給國防部的話一定是有所本的"},{"start":327.717,"end":336.253,"text":"那我們依據這個他研究出來的結果我們要中盤來檢討但對我們整體來講一定是正面幫助的多方的意見"},{"start":338.095,"end":363.882,"text":"會發覺我哪邊有不足的地方共同來改進這都是一個正面的我樂意見到這種意見部長謝謝可是因為我看到我們過去好像有類似的像國防科技發展的這個推行會那他好像是由副部長來做召集那他是要結合民間發動這一種國防科技的工業加速這些國防的這些自主等等的"},{"start":364.182,"end":388.84,"text":"可是他好像在109年就沒有運作了,可以請問一下原因嗎?還有運作嗎?有沒有運作?109年就沒運作了。報告委員,我是軍備局副局長。各位報告,我們現在國防部有結合這個國科會、經濟部推動這個先進科技。對這些基礎的研究,我們都有結合七大學院中心,持續在推展中。"},{"start":389.741,"end":389.881,"text":"國防創新委員會議員"},{"start":405.325,"end":421.738,"text":"其實在這個美國的這個國防創新委員會裡面,他不僅是有AI相關,包括生物化學的技術等等,這一些不只是商業,不只是研究,等於是各行各業的最top的人才都有機會給國防部部長諮詢。"},{"start":422.859,"end":450.2,"text":"那我認為這對國防部的創新也好或者是一些把這些最新的資訊納入我都認為是有幫助的所以很誠摯的希望部長能夠思考一下有沒有相關的可能性那特別是台灣現在的這個台海的戰略我們的台灣的重要性是增高的所以國防部不僅僅是國防的一環還有其他的相關產業其實都是很重要的一環是不是可以請國防部部長來相關的這些討論可以開始"},{"start":451.621,"end":469.075,"text":"是,絕對啊,因為剛剛我一開始表達,各方的意見或資料提供給我們,都是多方面參考的一個依據嘛。有做多段參考,它自然會有進步。那剛剛那個軍備局副局長講的,它雖然好像可能國防部在某一方面沒有主導,但還是一直在參與的。"},{"start":470.636,"end":499.085,"text":"現在因為大家資源共用嘛不要各部委都成立一個好像什麼智庫這智庫只要有關的大家都能夠相互參考委員剛剛提的我絕對願意啊能夠幫助能夠參與我絕對參與然後得到資料以後我們做一個參考非常感謝部長因為我們希望有快速的去創新是我們對於挑戰的一個最好的方式那因為我們加哈伊地區有民雄航太園區所以對於這樣子的我們國防"},{"start":499.785,"end":525.268,"text":"這采用最新的科技最新的技術還有就是民間的這些裝備我們都非常重視那我也非常肯定就是像是業務報告你們提及說在國防發展的時候你們舉辦了11場的說明會那我是希望未來特別針對重大的都市就六都以外的這些縣市能夠多辦這些說明會其實很多的這些產業產商都不見得是在六都裡面"},{"start":526.289,"end":534.919,"text":"多有這樣的說明會他們才有機會參與國防產業那對於民間跟軍中的這樣的合作能夠加強那我想國防不是國防部的事情而已"}]}},{"id":"149525","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149525","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe3eada15fc7120695dc62c46c87ca327ff8ba9b0039caa7a6cb827e0de0bb25275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"11:14:52 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11:20:59","影片長度":"00:13:52","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":832,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:20:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:07:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":703,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時7分）謝謝主席，請經濟部王部長，能源署游署長。"],["主席：請王部長和能源署。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，離岸風電算是再生能源重要的內涵，如果離岸風電能夠確實達標，對能源轉型有很大的幫助。目前離岸風電已經執行三期，我們也希望透過離岸風電協助國內產業，讓它國產化，對不對？中鋼公司成立一家興達海基，你知道在哪裡嗎？"],["王部長美花：是！在興達港那邊。"],["邱委員志偉：就在本席的選區，本席每天都會去幫你巡視。興達海基肩負南部離岸風電的重要龍頭責任，還要協助南部在地廠商做到國產化。北部已經有一家了，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：所以現在南部、北部嚴重失衡。你了解興達海基目前的狀況嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們有密切和他們聯繫，興達海基……"],["邱委員志偉：請你說一下目前興達海基的狀況。部長，你要了解，這個問題很嚴重。"],["王部長美花：我有注意。"],["邱委員志偉：你有注意，但是你不夠了解啊！這件事本席最了解。例如要投入多少成本？設立電廠是不是需要四、五十億元？差不多嘛！"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：一開始會有學習曲線，每接一個案子不見得會有利潤，也有可能會虧損，對不對？因為還需要長時間學習。但沃旭的訂單卻一減再減，最後是交幾件Jacket？"],["王部長美花：6座。"],["邱委員志偉：原先的訂單是幾座？"],["王部長美花：最早是56座。"],["邱委員志偉：從56座變成6座，你知道虧損多少錢嗎？虧損很多錢啦！再來，中能是中鋼集團的離岸風電公司，中能有幾座？"],["王部長美花：中能的風場就順利很多。"],["邱委員志偉：他們有賺錢嗎？因為他們還在學習曲線的過程，所以他們也是虧損。這兩件做完之後，你們要協助國內的企業，特別是中鋼成立的興達海基，全力達成離岸風電的目標，其中國營事業義不容辭扮演重要的角色，所以你們要協助他們，讓國產化的目標到位，讓興達海基有競爭力，這樣才能協助我國能源轉型。但國營事業也不能只配合，因為中鋼是上市公司，它也要對股東負責。"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：之後有沒有訂單？"],["王部長美花：我們有讓他們和另外一家一起配合，來做結合。"],["邱委員志偉：另外兩家啦！就是南方聯盟嘛！這些本席比你更清楚。"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：南方聯盟的問題是，雖然他們這個聯盟組成了，但訂單一樣要給興達海基啊！訂單從哪邊來？台電、中油的代表在不在？也在啊！台電、中油要不要做離岸風電？"],["王部長美花：他們有參與中能，還有去找……"],["邱委員志偉：他們兩家公司也和另外一家公司共同合資，要做離岸風電。"],["王部長美花：就是3.1的部分。"],["邱委員志偉：離岸風電是否需要Jacket？"],["王部長美花：要啊！"],["邱委員志偉：他們向誰下單？因為台電、中油的股份占了將近50%，這個訂單給誰？是國內還是國外？照理說，以合理的邏輯推演，國營事業要挺國營事業，對不對？台電、中油要做Jacket，做離岸風電的水下機組，訂單為什麼沒有給興達海基？"],["王部長美花：應該說還沒有下訂單，不是不給興達海基做。"],["邱委員志偉：這不是正確答案喔！請教署長，你的理解是什麼？"],["游署長振偉：這有關整體的供需，我們是從國內整體來看，國內有兩個供應體系，開發商會去做綜合評估，評估完就會下單。"],["邱委員志偉：台電、中油也算開發商，對不對？"],["游署長振偉：是的，也算開發商。"],["邱委員志偉：開發商應該要有一定的政策引導能力，因為如果沒有辦法將全部訂單都給南部的公司，就會變的獨厚北部，你們要把獨厚北部的原因找出來。現在應該是要發展成南北雙雄，是雙引擎，結果南部引擎全部熄火。台電、中油做為一個開發商，大概也占了50%的股份，你們沒有決定權把一些訂單交給興達海基嗎？據本席的了解是連一座都沒有，怎麼會變成這樣？"],["游署長振偉：現在海……"],["邱委員志偉：你們要國營事業支持離岸風電，現在卻讓他們自生自滅，離岸風電的計畫如何達標？據本席了解，他們都已經下訂單了，但是沒有給興達海基。台電、中油的總經理都在，你們兩家公司的投資將近50%。"],["王總經理耀庭：台電投資20%，中油投資20%。"],["邱委員志偉：這樣就是40%。有40%的股份應該有一定的影響力吧？例如要蓋40座，你們能不能用控股的影響力，最起碼撥10座、20座給中鋼的興達海基？部長，你知道這件事情嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：目前這個投資合作案還在公司內，還沒有送出去，所以未來……"],["邱委員志偉：最後的結果可能就是全部集中在北部啦！如果沒有政策引導、支持，如果按照台電、中油和另外一家合資廠商的決策，一座都不可能給興達海基做啦！怎麼辦？中鋼的興達海基未來3、4年會有訂單嗎？連台電、中油加起來投資40%的公司，都不支持中鋼的興達海基，那麼問題來了，其他開發商有可能支持嗎？連自己的兄弟台電、中油都不相挺，其他開發商要怎麼相挺？他們會向興達海基下單嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：商務的部分我們再好好研究一下。"],["邱委員志偉：國營事業要相挺啦！成立興達海基也是為了響應政府能源轉型，由國營事業帶頭成立南方聯盟，追求國產化，讓離岸風電能在南臺灣落地生根、成長茁壯，到現在幾年了？從2018年到現在，你想想看5年虧損了多少錢？未來還要虧損多少？如果沒有政策支持、引導的話。部長，請你做政策宣示。"],["王部長美花：回去後我會了解一下相關情形，因為部分取決於商業談判。至於委員說的，如何提供相關的政策協助，這部分我會注意。"],["邱委員志偉：這會有示範效果，連國營事業都不相挺，其他離岸風電的開發商會不會效法？"],["王部長美花：我會注意一下相關情形。"],["邱委員志偉：要很注意，不是注意一下而已。"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，興達電廠燃氣將混5%氫氣發電，曾次長，我們有一起去主持動土典禮，如果2024年興達電廠混氫燃氣要提前達標，你們有沒有更具體的計畫？國外電廠都可以達到50%，興達電廠什麼時候也可以達到？"],["曾次長文生：你剛才說的第一件事，就是達到5%以上，其實我們現在已經測試過10%的混燒，這是第一件事。第二件事是要達到50%，這要和那個機組能夠相匹配，因為在興達電廠，我們現在主要是測試氫的供應等相關的周邊問題。以我們的機組來說，您也知道興達舊款的機組設計時間比較早，所以我們需要花時間去校正，調整出數字以後，必須是適合的機組才能達到50%的目標。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這是一個好的起點，你們要持續去做。王部長，你要請中油、台電共同合作，把過去燃煤的興達電廠變成永續零碳的示範電廠，這樣才能確保茄定、湖內、路竹等當地居民的健康，也才能達到追求永續零碳的示範作用。部長，你有沒有什麼……"],["王部長美花：這個就是我們在努力的方向，我們也希望讓這個燃煤電廠轉型。"],["邱委員志偉：所以舊燃煤1號、2號機組，2023年已經除役，是除役後就不會再運轉？還是雖然除役，但還是備用？"],["王部長美花：它是警備機組，就是除役了，原則上沒有使用。"],["邱委員志偉：請教你，3、4號機組今年年底也要轉備用嗎？"],["王部長美花：都轉成警備機組。"],["邱委員志偉：所以四座都轉成備用機組？"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：當初你說的是1號、2號除役喔！除役就是不使用了。"],["王部長美花：事實上從除役到現在，確實都沒有運轉過，因為它的……"],["邱委員志偉：什麼樣的狀況下會運轉？"],["王部長美花：條件非常嚴格，只有符合條件才會啟動。"],["邱委員志偉：本席可不可以這樣說，這些機組雖然是備用，但是形同除役，運轉的可能性微乎其微。因為本席必須回去向鄉親說明，他們很怕你們又找理由燃煤。不會吧？"],["王部長美花：不會。原則上如果不符合那個嚴格的條件，這些機組就不會使用，這其實是從國家安全角度設計的。"],["邱委員志偉：去年通過的疫後條例，我們針對用電的補貼也花了500億元。"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：今年有沒有針對這部分編列預算？因為這個條例是到2025年。"],["王部長美花：疫後的經費總共是317億元，這筆經費會用到2025年，目前都還在持續受理相關的申請案。"],["邱委員志偉：主席站起來了，再1分鐘。所以那個增資案會順利完成嗎？"],["王部長美花：台電的通過了。"],["邱委員志偉：台電的董事會通過，部裡面也同意了？"],["王部長美花：對，500億元那部分通過了。"],["邱委員志偉：明年還會繼續增資嗎？"],["王部長美花：明年我們會爭取補貼。"],["邱委員志偉：同樣面對財務問題的中油也有這個需求啊！你們還是要審慎考量。"],["王部長美花：中油的部分，我們內部也會討論。"],["邱委員志偉：工會也在看。因為你們改善了台電的財務結構、財務體質，中油也一樣財政困難，他們也提出增資的需求，為什麼會有不同標準？"],["王部長美花：我們的做法是例如中油賣LNG給台電，我們就讓他們十足反映成本，這個部分就可以讓中油不要再一直虧損，至於其他的措施，我們會檢討。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這次就沒有增資的必要？"],["王部長美花：目前我們有和中油內部討論，我們內部也有做一些調整，這些我們內部都會詳細討論。"],["邱委員志偉：方總，你同意部長的說法嗎？"],["方總經理振仁：事實上中油公司的虧損也滿巨大的，目前的負債比是90%，所以我們還是希望能夠增資啦！"],["邱委員志偉：所以董事會還是希望能夠增資嘛！但部長不同意啊！"],["王部長美花：不是不同意。確實，對於台電、中油，我們都希望他們可以財務穩健，所以我們會做整體的考量。"],["邱委員志偉：用什麼方法都沒有關係啦！但也要改善財務結構，因為財務穩健最重要啦！"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝。"],["主席：請部長提供詳細的資料給委員，謝謝。","接下來請陳委員超明發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra 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王國興議員王國興議員"},{"start":27.11,"end":32.232,"text":"議長,離岸風電算是再生能源重要的一個內涵。離岸風電能夠確實達標對能源轉型有很大的幫助。離岸風電已經執行了三期。現在我們希望透過離岸風電能夠協助國內產業能夠國產化。"},{"start":52.213,"end":57.792,"text":"那中鋼公司也成立一個新的海基新的海基在哪裡你知道嗎?"},{"start":58.737,"end":86.857,"text":"在新達港那邊在我那邊,你知道嗎?對,是我達港幫你順耶是所以新達海基肩負著這個南部這個離岸風電的一個重要的這個龍頭它要協助這個在地南部的這個企業廠商能夠達到這個國產化北部已經有一家了嘛,對不對?是它南部、北部嚴重失衡啊你知道那個新達海基某間的狀況,你了解嗎?"},{"start":88.73,"end":109.562,"text":"有,我們都有密切跟他聯繫,那新的海基...你們講一下目前新的海基的狀況。要不要說一下?對。部長,你要了解,這個很嚴重。我有注意,我有注意。你有注意,但是你不夠了解啊。我最了解。你投入成本要多少?你要建廠,要不要4、50億?"},{"start":112.545,"end":138.523,"text":"那你這個從開始你要有學習曲線學習曲線你每接一個案子不見得會有利潤而且會虧損對不對因為需要長時間的這個學習好 這個臥序這個訂單一撿再撿最後到交出幾件的這個Jacket6座是原先是幾座原先訂單是幾座最早是56座56座後來變成6座"},{"start":141.072,"end":169.864,"text":"好,六座快多少錢你知道嗎?很多錢啦齁,很多錢你了解啦齁,花了很多錢再來,中能,中能是這個中鋼自己的這個離岸風電,中能幾座?欸,中能的風潮就順利很多了對啦,他也跟我談及,他還是學習曲線的過程當中嘛,他也了解嘛齁"},{"start":172.234,"end":198.268,"text":"再來 這兩件資料你要協助這個國內的特別是中鋼成立這個新的海基要全力來達成這個離岸封電對不對 國營事業這個一不容死扮演重要角色但你要協助能夠讓這個國產化到位讓這個新的海基有它的競爭力能夠協助能源轉型"},{"start":201.861,"end":228.248,"text":"國營事業不是物質配合但是國營事業也要中鋼也是上市公司他也要對股東負責那你後面有沒有訂單我們有讓他跟另外一家一起配合來做這個結合另外兩家啊南方聯盟嘛這我比你更清楚啦南方聯盟問題是說他們聯盟組成的你訂單也是要下給新達海基啊"},{"start":229.732,"end":255.704,"text":"那訂單從哪邊來?台電、中油在不在?台電、中油是。也在啊。台電、中油要不要做離岸風電?他們就是有參與這個中能的,還有...不是啊,他們自己也要...他們兩家公司也跟另外一家公司共同合資要...這個...有離岸風電嘛。3.1的部分,是。那離岸風電要不要有jacket?要啊,要。那跟誰下?"},{"start":257.619,"end":282.546,"text":"海淀中油這個股份也佔了將近50%這個訂單下給誰?是國內還是國外?還是你照理說我合理的這個邏輯推演國營事業要挺國營事業 對不對?你海淀中油你要做Jacket你要做離岸洪水下機組那你訂單為什麼沒有下給這個新的海基?"},{"start":284.578,"end":294.174,"text":"應該說還沒有下,不是不下給新台海這個不是正確的答案請教一下,署長您的理解是怎麼樣?"},{"start":295.816,"end":317.622,"text":"有關於整體的供需我們大概就國內整體來看那國內有兩個供應體系那開發商他會去做綜合的評估那所以這個評估完成他會做的下單 開發商台電終於也算開發商對不對也算開發商好開發商你應該有一定的政策引導能力你如果沒有辦法全部下給南部你就會獨厚北部"},{"start":318.442,"end":335.008,"text":"他讀後北部的原因你要把他找出來應該是南北雙雄 對不對雙引擎結果南部引擎全部熄火那台電中有做一個開發商你也大概有50%的股份你沒有決定權把一些訂單交給信達海基嗎我了解是一座都沒有這怎麼會變成這樣你讓國營事業來支持離岸風電那你卻讓他自生自滅"},{"start":348.902,"end":360.008,"text":"那離岸風電你要如何達標?據我瞭解 這個訂單都已經下了沒有下給信達海基 那個還能做那個總經理都在"},{"start":361.201,"end":381.31,"text":"你們兩家公司控股投資大概百分之五十,將近百分之五十台電投資百分之二十,中油投資百分之二十那就四十那四十有一定的影響力吧不要說你要蓋四十座你能不能用你的控股的影響力最起碼有十座有二十座給中鋼嘛,給進大海基"},{"start":386.453,"end":408.145,"text":"目前目前因為這個案子還在公司內還沒有送出去就整個投資案合作案還沒有送出公司所以未來最後的結果可能全部集中在北部啦最後的結果如果沒有政策的引導支持的話如果按照台電中油跟另外一家這個合資的廠商去做決策的話"},{"start":409.62,"end":430.678,"text":"一季都沒有可能有新的海基啊那你要怎樣?要重更新的海基?未來3、4年還有長短嗎?連台電、中油、控股的公司、投資40%的公司都沒有支持重更新的海基喔!這樣來啊!那其他台灣省有沒有可能支持?"},{"start":432.454,"end":437.946,"text":"連台灣電力股份有限公司董事長都沒可能消停你其他公司要怎麼消停?要怎麼把新台幣停?"},{"start":442.822,"end":466.614,"text":"這個商務部分我們再來好好研究一下那國營事業要收聽吶這個新唐海自己也是這個響應政府這個營業展行國營事業帶頭來這個帶動南方聯盟在追求國產化讓離岸風電能夠在南台灣落地生根能夠成長茁壯到現在幾年了2018到現在五年時間你虧損了多少錢你看看"},{"start":472.356,"end":477,"text":"未來你還會虧損多少?如果沒有政策的支持、沒有政策的引導的話這個部長你要做個政策的宣示好不好?"},{"start":483.884,"end":501.956,"text":"這個回去我會瞭解一下相關的情形那因為一部分是上業的談判啦齁但是另外委員講的政策可以怎麼樣瞭解跟相關的協助 這個我會來注意一下這個會有示範效果 欸 連國營事業自己兄弟都不修聽以開發商"},{"start":504.537,"end":528.589,"text":"會不會效法?我會來注意一下相關的情形。要注意很多下,不是注意一下而已。是。是。那另外啊新達電廠這個燃氣這個我們混清5%那個那個曾市長我們去主持這個這個凍土嘛齁這個我們一起組成凍土2024要提前達標了齁"},{"start":529.966,"end":544.275,"text":"那未來這個新達電廠混清燃氣的這部分,未來你有沒有什麼更具體的計畫?你要達到這個50%,國外電廠都可以達到50%,那你這個新達電廠什麼時候可以達標到50%?"},{"start":550.233,"end":562.699,"text":"那個跟委員報告首先你剛才講的第一件事就是打5%以上其實我們現在已經測試過10%的混燒了這是第一件事那第二件事是要達到50%要跟那個機組能夠相匹配那因為新打我們現在在測試主要是氫的供應等等相關周邊的問題"},{"start":570.402,"end":597.051,"text":"那機組本身我們選的是相對來講您知道新達的舊款的機組比較他年齡就是說他設計比較早所以我們需要花時間去校正就調出他的數字以後要適合的機組可能才能夠到50%所以這個差的是一個好的起點是的那你們要持續你要請這個經濟部長這個王部長你要請中油台電共同來合作把過去的藍媒的新達電廠"},{"start":599.014,"end":614.075,"text":"把他變成永續零碳的示範電廠這是一個對他們居民健康的一個很大的確保這也是追求這個永續零碳的一個示範作用"},{"start":617.105,"end":631.017,"text":"這個就是我們在努力的方向。我們也希望讓他的燃煤電廠可以怎麼樣去轉型。所以你那個舊燃煤1號、2號2023已經除役了嗎?除役他就不會再運轉了嗎?"},{"start":632.793,"end":634.916,"text":"那這個3、4號今年年底也要轉備用?"},{"start":648.001,"end":673.485,"text":"都轉成警備機組所以事做都轉成備用是當初你說的是1號、2號是要除役喔除役是沒辦法跟委員報告事實上我們從除役到現在確實都沒有運轉過都沒有運轉過因為他的在什麼樣的狀況之下會運轉他的條件非常嚴格才會去啟動他我可不可以這樣說這個雖然是備用但形同除役"},{"start":674.67,"end":684.395,"text":"他這個運轉的可能性微乎其微我要回去跟我的這個鄉親是這樣你又找理由又攔美了"},{"start":685.393,"end":689.914,"text":"我們針對這個用電的補貼我們也花了500億嘛所以用電補貼那今年有沒有針對這部分也編了預算因為這個條例是到2025年"},{"start":717.915,"end":721.501,"text":"議後的總共是317億,這個經費是會用到2025年目前都還在持續受理相關的申請案所以那個曾志案會順利完成嗎?"},{"start":733.66,"end":734.78,"text":"同樣面對財務問題的這個忠友他有這個需求"},{"start":752.448,"end":771.639,"text":"中油部分我們會有內部的一些討論的情形公會也在看你改善了台電的這個財務結構財務這個體制那中油的部分也一樣是有財政的困難那他們提出這個政治的需求那為什麼會有不同標準"},{"start":772.347,"end":773.068,"text":"所以就沒有政治的必要?"},{"start":788.102,"end":810.891,"text":"目前我們有跟中友內部討論我們內部有做一些調整我們會內部會詳細的討論那個方總你同意部長的說法嗎是是報告委員事實上中友公司的虧損也蠻巨大的目前的負債比是90%所以董事會還是希望能夠增資所以我們希望還是能夠增資那部長不同意啊"},{"start":813.953,"end":814.193,"text":"您的資料給委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149523","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149523","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbea3d2b0daaba3d04b35d7358300cbb288f8ba9b0039caa7a6f0769d76712aaaab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"11:05:02 - 11:16:43","影片長度":"00:11:41","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":701,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:16:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:05:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":772,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（11時5分）謝謝召委，我們現在請邱主委。"],["主席：請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員太三：高金委員你好。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝主委。金門撞船事件到現在已經快1個月了，我們看到昨天的消息是雙方談判破裂了，請問您清楚知道我們談判幾次？時間、地點、到底有哪一些談判代表，然後陸委會的角色是什麼嗎？可以簡單回答嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：談過了15次，也不叫破裂啦，因為雙方有一、兩個項目可能已經有合致了，但是有其他的項目大概在法定的程序跟所謂的名詞上，大家各自回去解釋。"],["高金委員素梅：所以您是樂觀的？"],["邱主任委員太三：我不悲觀啦，我不能講樂觀，因為這是雙方都要有一定程度的妥協（compromise）。"],["高金委員素梅：瞭解，談判其實就是雙方的角力嘛，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：也是妥協啦。"],["高金委員素梅：對。"],["邱主任委員太三：是角力也是妥協。"],["高金委員素梅：很好，對，我們能夠用能力或證據達成共識，其實也是您身處統籌處理大陸事務主委……","如果談判破裂的話，就如您剛剛講的，可能還有一些問題存在，達不了共識，其實你是最緊張也是最擔心的，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：當然，我一定會持續關注，也戒慎恐懼。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。週一您在這邊回答我們說，這只是一個個案，你又講了兩岸的溝通管道其實很順暢，似乎感覺到……"],["邱主任委員太三：我沒有講順暢，是有溝通管道。"],["高金委員素梅：好的，溝通管道，那我就問您，這個溝通管道到底是什麼？是誰？是不是有效？"],["邱主任委員太三：當然，委員講有效的概念會比較抽象。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，我問說是誰？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上我剛剛有提到……"],["高金委員素梅：溝通管道是誰？是陸委會還是海基會，還是有更神祕的人？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，我要整個回答。第一個，剛剛提到了，我們過去三十幾年來……"],["高金委員素梅：你講太多了，我現在就問你兩個問題，就請你回答相關問題，我剛問你到底是誰？"],["邱主任委員太三：這個都是溝通管道，因為有一些是業務主管機關的……"],["高金委員素梅：你就說是誰就好了嘛，還是整個行政院最後會整理出一個談判的小組？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，基本上……"],["高金委員素梅：沒有？所以就是海委會的副署長去談判，我們的國家，我們的政府沒有派代表在後面統籌？"],["邱主任委員太三：我剛剛提到了，它有分事務性的、個案性的、政策性的，會按照不同的……"],["高金委員素梅：所以你的意思是說談判的代表裡面，行政院的那個所屬單位的代表都在？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，跟它不相關的它不需要在。"],["高金委員素梅：那有哪些相關的？"],["邱主任委員太三：譬如這一次這個事件，原則上大概就是海巡署跟我們和海基會。"],["高金委員素梅：你們一直談到的國家安全跟法律，這些人有參加嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：你說什麼？"],["高金委員素梅：你一直談到的國家安全，或者是法律上的問題，我們的國安會有人參加嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：他們是一個政策單位，不是執行單位。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦，謝謝。我們的海委會說是依法行政，當然我也相信必須要依法行政，但是他們又講一切的證據都交給檢調了，既然第一，海巡署、海委會也好，在那邊一直強烈回答說我們沒有錯，又有有利的證據，然後又講人道關懷，怎麼講？以我的邏輯判斷啦，這種談判應該是十拿九穩，會成功嘛，為什麼會破裂？為什麼到現在還談不下來？原因到底是什麼？簡單回答一下。"],["邱主任委員太三：第一個是這樣，慰問金的部分基本上大概比較接近了，但是在名詞上面可能各有所堅持。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，剛剛你沒有聽清楚我的問題，我說既然我們說我們沒有錯，而且又有有利的證據，因為海巡署在那邊回答說有利的證據都交給了我們的檢調，既然交給了檢調，在談判的現場，為什麼不把這些東西拿出來，然後來談判？有利於大家不要再有這麼多的紛爭嘛。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，因為……"],["高金委員素梅：有沒有拿出來？"],["邱主任委員太三：我知道，海巡署講證據有利，陸方不一定會接受。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：就我們而言……"],["高金委員素梅：它說它有航跡軌跡圖，然後又有碰撞，這個碰撞是事實啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：這個就要看海巡署為什麼在談判的時候不願意提出證據，是不是檢察官有作什麼樣的指示。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦，我不再問這件事情了，謝謝您的回答，您的回答也是交給檢調。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，我們臺灣所有的事實真相是司法來做最後的確定。"],["高金委員素梅：所以在談判的時候，這些有利證據就不拿出來就是了。"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，我相信檢察官，他請專家來鑑定的時候，相關的證據……"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，這是邏輯的問題，兩個事情是不一樣的。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，已經很……"],["高金委員素梅：一個是相關的證據在談判的時候，如果對我們有利的話，你把這些東西拿出來不是更有證據、更有說服力嗎？我的問題是這個。"],["邱主任委員太三：那是海巡署它對於證物程序的問題……"],["高金委員素梅：好了，不用再回答了，謝謝。","按照我們剛剛談到撞船事件，我們看到政府說法好像不太一樣，所以我待會就要談幾個不太一樣的例子，第一個，我們看到2月20號陳院長他口頭施政報告的時候，就針對兩岸議題提到，即使面對威脅，臺灣始終會堅持民主、多元、尊重人權的生活方式；那麼在這一次你的業務報告裡面也提到了，要秉持「保障權益、照顧輔導」為原則，持續會關懷還有檢討大陸配偶在臺灣的生活權益還有法規。","請問一下主委，在處理兩岸跟陸配的議題上面，我們的行政團隊採取所謂民主、多元、尊重人權跟保障權益和照顧輔導立場，是不是這樣子？對嗎？你的報告是這樣嘛？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。首先，我要肯定您的立場還有陳院長的方針，那麼陳院長他一直高喊著人權，可是3月1號我們大家都看到了，在陸配身分證取得的年限比照外配這一件事情上他又改口了，他說茲事體大，保持保留的態度。最令人意外的是什麼你知道嗎？陸配身分證取得的年限還有比照外配的議題，是2020年的時候執政黨，也就是民進黨你們提出的。","我們看一下，2020年行政院提交的相關人權報告裡面，你們就怎麼樣落實陸配人權有寫到，政府擬具兩岸人民關係條例第十七條修正草案，你們要將大陸配偶取得身分證的年限由現行的6年調整到4年到8年，然後你們也寫到大陸配偶來臺取得身分證的年限必須要調整跟外籍配偶是一致的，而且你們也已經擬具兩岸人民關係條例第十七條修正草案，尚待立法院完成立法程序。提醒您喔！一直到這次大選結束前，民進黨的立委在立法院都是絕大多數喔！請問一下這份報告裡面，當時陸委會有參與其中嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：有。"],["高金委員素梅：有，好，那我就要問您了，當時是這樣，現在又改口，到底是政府給社會大眾或者是給國際上的假資料，還是如同麥玉珍委員說的，因為2020年那時候是大選，他們這些外配也好、陸配也好，在大選當中被大家搶來搶去，請問是哪一個？"],["邱主任委員太三：我跟委員做一個歷史回顧報告……"],["高金委員素梅：簡單……不要再歷史回顧！我已經……"],["邱主任委員太三：因為我要告訴你的就是在於說……"],["高金委員素梅：你剛剛說2020年陸委會也參與其中嘛！對不對？那為什麼陸委會跟現在你們的看法又不一樣？當時2020年的時候就不是茲事體大，現在就茲事體大，為什麼？"],["邱主任委員太三：因為這個從第一次2010年的時候就已經提出來了，國民黨政府在101年跟105年……"],["高金委員素梅：你不要講歷史背景了，我都知道，你在浪費我的時間。"],["邱主任委員太三：我只要告訴你說為什麼在立法院還是沒有辦法……"],["高金委員素梅：為什麼？"],["邱主任委員太三：就是因為爭議大嘛！利弊得失要比較。"],["高金委員素梅：爭議大，那2020年在大選的時候你們也提出來啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我當然可以理解擔心陸配，但是這個一定會拿出外配來做比較，茲事就體大了。"],["高金委員素梅：我現在就跟你講，剛剛民進黨立委有提出非常多，我認為……"],["邱主任委員太三：麥玉珍委員也提出來了啊！"],["高金委員素梅：我認為這都是假消息啦！第一，外界有提出很多問題，我舉三個例子，第一個是國安問題，請問一下如果是國安問題的話，我們有任何一個數據可以支持陸配比起外配更容易違反所謂的相關法律嗎？如果沒有，這個就是假議題，對不對？好，第二個，我要講的是健保濫用的問題，剛剛有人講探親的陸配家屬會濫用健保，很多人都講，目前依照我們的法規，陸配的家屬如果居留6個月以上，他才可以使用健保嘛！但是我們兩岸人民關係條例的限制是他居留不可以超過6個月啊！所以我認為這也是假議題啊！然後又講陸配70歲的家屬可以直接定居，所以他們會浪費健保，剛剛看到數據，你也說現在每年我們限制60位而已，就是超過70歲以上的家屬，這樣子一來的話要怎麼樣浪費健保？所以健保問題也是一個假議題啊！然後他又提到一個就是剛剛講的，陸配不用拋棄國籍，而外配是要，但是陸配必須要放棄他的戶籍，現在是如此嘛！對不對？實質上其實也等同外配放棄國籍這樣子的一個理論嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：不一樣，國籍跟戶籍不一樣。"],["高金委員素梅：所以這些民進黨立委覺得不公平，為什麼在當時執政8年這當中，尤其2020年你們也提到這個人權的部分，你們為什麼不修改這些東西呢？為什麼要現在造成這麼大的爭議？"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我想外界各有各的關注點，我們沒有辦法評論，但是我們總結……"],["高金委員素梅：所以你們不能夠評論，但是……好，你總結。"],["邱主任委員太三：就是看看過去的經驗，101年的草案也好或105年國民黨時代提出的草案也好，它為什麼最後還是沒有過？那就是因為很多的問題會糾結在一起……"],["高金委員素梅：好，很好，你剛剛說茲事體大嘛！對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：就像我剛剛提到的，它是一個潘朵拉的盒子……"],["高金委員素梅：好，我知道了。"],["邱主任委員太三：所以我們陸委會向來不對外講到底是什麼樣的因素，但是我們主要是注重他們在臺的生活、工作跟他們的照顧。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝主委您的回應，茲事體大，所以本席認為有非常多兩岸的問題不要用情緒發言、不要用意識形態發言……"],["邱主任委員太三：對，我們陸委會絕對不會這樣。"],["高金委員素梅：所以我們剛剛談到的這些，包括一些民進黨立委提的一些數據，我認為這都是假消息，所以真正的問題點是剛剛主委您說的……","我必須回到我的結論，最後我要講的是我完全支持2020年民進黨的人權理念，同時也針對2024年民進黨對於這個人權理念的跳票感到非常的錯愕，我覺得這個又是一個非常明顯蔡英文在任期宣布，又在蔡英文任期裡面沒有辦法完成的一個現實的案例。謝謝您今天的回答，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員太三：人權的理想不斷的要追求。"],["主席：好，謝謝我們高金召委，也謝謝邱主委。","接下來我們請李柏毅委員發言，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":268,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-4","speakers":["高金素梅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","羅智強","王美惠","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","張智倫","許宇甄"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.6334687500000005,"end":5.734718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.734718750000001,"end":5.785343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.785343750000001,"end":5.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.51096875,"end":9.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.26534375,"end":13.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.78784375,"end":16.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.82159375,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.024093750000002,"end":17.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.10846875,"end":35.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.58096875,"end":18.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.58346875,"end":29.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.33346875,"end":43.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.58534375,"end":52.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.68534375,"end":53.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.06909375,"end":53.102843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.60909375,"end":59.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.05971875,"end":59.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.970968750000004,"end":84.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.68346875,"end":65.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.37221875,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.96221875,"end":106.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.32346875,"end":100.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.40659375000001,"end":109.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.44034375000001,"end":107.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.02659375,"end":109.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.39346875000001,"end":110.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.11909375,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.16096875000001,"end":114.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.11409375000001,"end":117.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.41346875,"end":117.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.70034375,"end":117.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.71721875,"end":117.80159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.80159375000001,"end":121.54784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.54784375000001,"end":122.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.34096875,"end":122.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.61096875000001,"end":122.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.93159375,"end":122.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.94846875,"end":127.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.97721875000002,"end":130.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.14159375,"end":138.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.67284375,"end":137.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.55784375000002,"end":154.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.64971875,"end":145.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.91534375,"end":146.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.96034375000002,"end":155.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.31471875,"end":155.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.36534375000002,"end":159.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.12846875,"end":166.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.56721875000002,"end":160.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.84534375,"end":163.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.80659375000002,"end":172.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.75534375,"end":171.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.96596875,"end":177.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.11721875,"end":177.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.47159375,"end":182.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.38221875000002,"end":187.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.61784375000002,"end":187.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.98471875,"end":188.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.37284375000002,"end":188.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.40659375,"end":191.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.44034375,"end":188.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.64659375000002,"end":217.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAK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陸方不一定會接受嗎他有航機軌跡一圖然後又有碰撞啊 然後這個碰撞是事實啊那這個就要看海巡署為什麼在談判的時候他不願意提出這個事情是不是檢察官有做什麼樣的指示嗎好 謝謝您的回答好 您的回答也是交給檢調的然後可能在談判 所以在談判的時候這些證據就拿不出來就不拿出來就是了"},{"start":279.059,"end":279.86,"text":"海巡署對於政務的程序"},{"start":300.541,"end":326,"text":"按照我們剛剛談到這些這個這個撞船事件我們看到我們的政府說法好像不太一樣所以呢我待會就要談幾個不太一樣的例子第一個我們來看到就是2月20號我們的陳院長他口頭施政報告的時候他就針對兩岸議題提到即使面對威脅台灣始終會堅持民主多元尊重人權的生活方式那麼在這一次你的業務報告裡面也提到了"},{"start":326.22,"end":327.581,"text":"首先我要肯定您的立場還有陳院長的方針"},{"start":355.471,"end":371.18,"text":"陳院長一直高喊著人權可是3月1號我們大家都看到了在陸配身份證取得的年限比照外配這一件事情上他又改口了他說知識體大保持保留的態度"},{"start":372.641,"end":382.893,"text":"最令人意外的是什麼你知道嗎陸配身份證取得的年限還有比照外配的議題是2020年的時候執政黨也就是民進黨你們提出的我們看一下2022年你們提交行政院提交的相關人權報告裡面你們就怎麼樣落實陸配人權有寫到"},{"start":393.704,"end":394.604,"text":"提醒您喔一直"},{"start":423.213,"end":423.253,"text":"主席"},{"start":434.847,"end":456.7,"text":"有好那我要就要問您了當時當時是這樣現在又改口到底是政府給社會大眾或者是給國際上的假資料還是如同麥玉珍委員說的因為2020年當時候是大選他們這些外配也好陸配也好在大選當中被大家搶來搶去請問是哪一個"},{"start":459.501,"end":466.404,"text":"我跟委員做一個歷史的回顧報告不要再歷史回顧你剛剛說2020年陸委會也參與其中嘛對不對那為什麼陸委會跟現在你們的看法又不一樣當時2020年的時候就不是知識體大現在就知識體大為什麼因為這個從第一次2010年的時候就已經提出來的"},{"start":484.161,"end":490.324,"text":"國民黨政府在101年我只要告訴你為什麼在立法院還是沒有辦法 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Kacaw委員：所以，很好！你回答得很好！"],["邱部長國正：不要反過來了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：剛才你要這樣講，要很好，要回答。所以我的具體建議就是，有了花東快速道路之後，再來，很適合！新建花東快速道路之後，就一併考量，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：我大概不會講那麼多，因為花東快速道路跟我是沒有關聯。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以當然沒有關係，我知道，現在因為交通部正在做規劃，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：是，了解。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為你不知道，所以我讓你知道。"],["邱部長國正：這個問題我也來做答復。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。我提了很多次，志願役士兵實領的薪資待遇真的是偏低了，不能只是靠軍公教調薪的時候，不能只靠這個，要具體地解決，要提出一個新的薪資待遇計畫，要特別提出來，我已經提了好幾次。所以這個部分，你再一直軍購、軍購，軍購我不反對啦！但是再怎麼精良的，不管是飛機，還是什麼槍砲彈藥，還是什麼艦艇都一樣，都要有非常精良的士兵才有辦法。所以那個義務役1年也不夠啦！以前我們2年也不夠啊！現在何況才1年，所以志願役的薪資非常地重要。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個部分真的是比勞工平均薪資都不如啊！這個我已經提過很多次，相關的部門真的要提出來。部長你要交代啊！不然的話，一直停擺在這邊，志願役軍人的薪資很重要。我們看這個數字，你自己都看了，最後，提供數字就好，因為召委已經站起來了。","噪音管制法第十七條，110年1月20號公布施行，這個部分我就以志航機場為例，本來我們的部落在裡面，因為要蓋志航機場，所以把它移到志航機場的周邊，每天要聽噪音，所以補償啊！過去只有弄隔音設備那些，而且是十幾年隔音設備才補助一次。現在改了哦！可以用補償、可以用補貼，用經費直接補，而且應該每年補啊！噪音是每天啊！不是10年以後啊！所以這個部分你把數字……"],["主席：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個法召委最知道，當初我們一起推的。"],["主席：我們兩個一起修的，謝謝鄭委員。"],["鄭天財Sra 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可以用補貼 用經費直接補而且應該每年補啊 照例是每天啊所以不是10年以後所以這個部分你把數字 這個法這個張偉知道當初我們一起的我們兩個一起修的謝謝鄭委員這個法公佈施行到現在到底執行的情況怎麼樣提供素面資料謝謝鄭天財委員我請郭君跟委員做說明"}]}},{"id":"149521","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149521","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbeb695c586b9953794a2c0e3c4ee948455f8ba9b0039caa7a66aa26ffaefb95c7f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"11:04:14 - 11:15:27","影片長度":"00:11:13","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":673,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:15:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:04:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":434,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（11時4分）謝謝主席，我請蕭院長。"],["主席：好，院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：吳委員早。"],["吳委員沛憶：院長好，在我開始今天質詢題目之前想要先跟您釐清，因為我剛聽前面的委員在質詢當中有幾個事實上面是不是看起是來有落差？第一個是有委員提到過去幾年故宮來自港澳、中國的顧客有近五成，您說這個數字是錯誤的，所以實際上數字以去年和近幾年來說是多少？大約幾成？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上來講，我手上沒有精確的數字，我不便這樣直接的回應，可是五分之一、兩成是一定有，但是五成的話，亞洲的客人混在一起其實沒有辦法精確辨認，兩成的話是因為團客，團客是很清楚從大陸來的，這個是沒有問題。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以五成可能是高於事實的數字？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，目前來講還是有陸客，雖然沒有開放兩岸觀光，但是還是有陸客。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們自由行還是有的。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：剛剛還有一個資訊是有委員提問我們的語音系統，也就是導覽機的標案，以語音導覽系統的標案詢問您關於導覽人力的配置，事實上，故宮的導覽人力有沒有委外由廠商進行？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上導覽是由故宮的導覽志工進行。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有嘛？"],["蕭院長宗煌：數位的部分……"],["吳委員沛憶：我們的導覽人力是以導覽志工？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：另外配有導覽機，所以這個標案事實上是導覽機的標案而不是導覽人力的標案，是嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：導覽機和系統的建置，包括文案的翻譯，因為撰寫的話我們會……"],["吳委員沛憶：我要提醒院長一點，我認為故宮需要加強和委員的溝通，我剛剛上述只是列舉兩個客觀數字、客觀資訊，應該不需要在質詢現場進行討論，在這裡我們跟你們應該進行的是政策辯論、觀點的辯論，像這種基礎的資訊，我想我們要加強溝通。"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：讓委員能夠瞭解，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好。"],["吳委員沛憶：接下來，我在網路上有看到故宮跟臺灣嘻哈歌手韓森合作，韓森是文化部補助的大嘻哈時代選秀出來的歌手，我認為這是一個很好的嘗試。事實上近幾年故宮有新故宮計畫，除了軟體的行銷外，它一開始其實也是硬體的擴建、整建計畫。我要在這裡請問院長，因為故宮要做擴建和整建，我們是政府機關，符合文資法是基本要件，我們都是公務員，之所以要做整擴建的主要目的是什麼？一開始為什麼我們要做整擴建計畫？是不是目前故宮的建築體有什麼樣的需求需要改善？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，故宮北院的部分經過5次整建，就是它從正方形然後變成長方形、變成ㄇ形，總共經過5次整建，它整個空間銜接、配置的流暢性不足，所以要做整建，這是第一個。第二個就是因為它的屋頂漏水嚴重，管線老舊，歷史博物館剛剛完成整建所以故宮……"],["吳委員沛憶：漏水嚴重、管線老舊，這會造成博物館有什麼樣的問題？"],["蕭院長宗煌：每次遇到颱風大雨的時候，基本上同仁都兢兢業業，不敢回家，兩個鐘頭就要巡一次，甚至要緊急到屋頂處理排水的狀況，所以這部分已經到了要整體處理的地步。"],["吳委員沛憶：在我進入立法院之前，我就看到立法院非常關心故宮文物的保存，因為發生過幾次文物碎裂的事件，所以大家都非常關心，我認為擴整建的工程是必要且急迫的。依照博物館法，我們要收藏、保存、維護，博物館的基本功能是博物館法對我們的要求，這點我也希望故宮在對外的說明上面以及和社會的溝通上面要說清楚，告訴社會大眾為什麼納稅人必須支持故宮的整擴建計畫，因為目前我們建築體的條件在文物保存的功能上已經不符合需求了，這點是迫切的。我們希望這麼珍貴、世界級的文物在故宮裡面可以被妥善的保存，漏水等問題必須儘速解決，我希望故宮對這點能夠加強溝通、說明，可不可以改善？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，這部分我們剛辦了兩場說明會，我們會跟社會各界廣泛說明。"],["吳委員沛憶：院長，一樣是我們委員會，剛剛有很多人在關心我們的觀光，尤其是人次，我請教院長，故宮作為博物館，觀光是我們博物館必要達成的目標嗎？你覺得呢？在您的想法中。"],["蕭院長宗煌：這次新故宮計畫的三項子計畫中，最後一項就是希望透過文化觀光吸引更多國際人士來台。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯，我們促進觀光最重要的目標是什麼？在我看來，新故宮計畫叫做公共化，因為公共性也是博物館法給予我們的要求，所以故宮的確負有觀光的責任，但我們不是要求你們單純為了提升產值，以臺北來說，過去我在臺北市議會，我們常常也希望臺北市政府可以多跟故宮合作，為什麼呢？因為故宮是國際旅客必造訪的前五大景點之一，我們一直希望故宮能夠作為一個觀光引擎，當國際旅客好不容易來到臺灣、來到臺北，他們想來故宮參觀，我們希望他們在參觀完故宮之後能夠接連著認識臺北在地的文化資源等等，所以我看到新故宮計畫裡面除了硬體改建之外，的確也有軟體方面行銷、觀光等等資源，目前我們和地方政府合作的計畫包括哪些？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟地方政府合作的計畫其中一個就是跟不同的風景區或機構作聯名，比如101、順益原住民博物館等都有聯名的機制，另外跟臺北市政府的觀傳局也有合作。我們當然很期待所有的觀眾趕快回到故宮，但在觀眾一時沒有辦法回到故宮時，我們現在做的階段性就是把故宮的展覽往外送，目前來講有臺南美術館、客家六堆文化中心，接下來這個星期會到宜蘭蘭陽博物館，之後還有，太多了。就是說我們會陸續推不同的展覽到各個縣市不同的文化單位去展覽。"],["吳委員沛憶：我看到你們的公共化計畫裡面有部分的計畫內容是希望能跟地方政府合作，我從議會過來，以我的經驗來說，故宮能夠和地方政府合作的項目還包含很多，例如明年度有個和日本的合作，希望修學的學生能夠來到故宮，是不是有這樣的計畫？"],["蕭院長宗煌：去年我們和觀光署合作，只要油輪到我們就開館的計畫，雙方都認為效果不錯，今年我們想合作的就是日本的修學旅行，也就是畢業旅行，讓他們到臺灣來，這個我們會儘速處理。"],["吳委員沛憶：像這樣吸引外國學校的修學旅行來到臺灣其實也是各個地方政府教育局每年都在推廣的計畫，除了日韓以外，東南亞國家也是每年都有洽談合作。我認為故宮的主業是博物館，但負有要帶動地區甚至全臺灣觀光量能的任務，所以我認為我們應該借力使力，各地方政府都有觀光局、觀傳局，有交通局、教育局、文化局，每年這些地方政府的局處也都在努力促進觀光，故宮要做的角色應該是整合資源，我相信比起一個一個去洽談會更加快速，也能夠讓資源達到有效利用。就臺北市的部分來講，除了我剛才講的修學旅行外，大眾交通的接駁、觀光的宣傳，例如網站上面的社群行銷等等相關的通路，我認為是臺北市能夠加強的合作，如果有需要洽談的部分，我也很樂意進行幫忙，所以我希望故宮是不是能夠在兩個月就臺北市加強跟地方政府的合作？就我們原先希望以故宮的量能帶動觀光的目標進行合作，是不是能夠在兩個月內給我一個初步的評估？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，其實我們已經和臺北市觀傳局開啟合作了，去年的故宮博物館之夜和嗨翻故宮就是跟觀傳局合作的。"],["吳委員沛憶：這非常的好，我也希望未來有更多的合作，讓故宮尤其是北院區能夠在臺北市帶動更多的觀光發展，好不好？謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：好。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員，謝謝院長。院長，在下一個質詢之前我可不可以先請您稍微做一個澄清，請問南院有沒有副處長這個職缺？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，南院是有副處長的職缺，可是目前沒有補。"],["主席：好，謝謝，我只是要確定，剛剛我們在質詢台上面……"],["蕭院長宗煌：我沒有講清楚。"],["主席：是，我們互相把這個問題釐定清楚，謝謝院長。","接下來請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-2","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","陳冠廷"],"page_start":323,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130801_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.45596875,"end":9.396593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.497843750000001,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.290343750000002,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.134093750000002,"end":41.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.84721875,"end":42.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.462843750000005,"end":52.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.75346875,"end":48.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.23784375,"end":62.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.03034375,"end":58.283468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.07596875,"end":72.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.54284375,"end":80.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.91784375,"end":76.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00",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"start":331.917,"end":334.66,"text":"這一點是迫切的因為我們希望我們故宮這麼珍貴世界級的文物在我們故宮裡面可以被妥善的保存這個漏水等等的問題必須要盡速的解決這一點我希望我們故宮能夠來加強溝通說明可不可以來改善"},{"start":350.612,"end":370.813,"text":"對 這個部分我們剛剛辦了兩場的說明會我們會跟那個社會各界來管換來說明好 院長一樣是我們委員會也剛剛有很多人在關心我們的觀光尤其我們的人次院長我請教你我們故宮作為博物館這個觀光是我們博物館必要要達成的目標嗎"},{"start":373.595,"end":383.744,"text":"這是新故宮計畫我們兩項三項子計畫中的最後一項計畫就希望透過一個文化觀光然後吸引更多的國際人士來臺我們要達成觀我們要促進觀光我們最重要的目標是什麼在我看來我們新故宮計畫叫做公共化因為公共性也是博物館法給予我們的要求"},{"start":397.495,"end":424.44,"text":"所以我們覺得的確我們故宮負有促進觀光的責任但我們不是在要求你們單純為了提升產值那是因為故宮以台北來說過去我在台北市議會我們常常也希望我們的市政府可以多來跟故宮合作為什麼呢因為故宮是國際旅客來到台北必造訪的前五大景點之一我們都一直希望故宮能夠作為一個觀光的引擎"},{"start":425.14,"end":425.32,"text":"國際的旅客﹚"},{"start":456.101,"end":474.091,"text":"跟地方政府合作的計畫當然一個就是跟不同的風景區或是機構他們去做聯名譬如說像101、順義原住民博物館這些都有一個聯名的機制然後跟台北市政府的官傳局我們也有合作"},{"start":475.171,"end":495.96,"text":"另外一個的話就是說我們當然很期待所有的觀眾趕快回到故宮可是觀眾沒有辦法一時回到故宮的時候我們現在做的階段性就是把故宮的展覽往外送就是現在目前來講的話有台南美術館然後有那個客家文化六堆文化中心然後接下來的話會這個禮拜的話會到那個宜蘭"},{"start":499.701,"end":500.381,"text":"在我看到你們的公共化計畫裡面"},{"start":516.247,"end":519.748,"text":"有部分的計畫內容你們是希望能夠跟地方政府來合作的那我從議會過來所以呢以我經驗來說其實我認為我們故宮能夠跟地方政府合作的項目還包含了很多例如說我們明年度我們是不是有一個希望可以來來跟日本來合作這個修學的這些學生能夠來到故宮是不是有一個這樣的計畫"},{"start":539.916,"end":557.078,"text":"去年我們跟那個觀光使合作就是遊輪的一個只要遊輪到我們就開館的一個計畫那基本上來講的話就是雙方認為成效都不錯那今年我們想跟他們合作的話就是有關日本的休學旅行休學旅行就是畢業旅行"},{"start":559.739,"end":575.406,"text":"對,像這個來吸引外國的學校的休學旅行來到台灣其實也是各個地方政府每年教育局都在推廣的計畫除了日韓以外,包含東南亞的國家我們也都是每年都有洽談合作的所以呢,我認為我們的主業是博物館但是我們富有要帶動"},{"start":580.788,"end":580.808,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":603.16,"end":603.28,"text":"﹚吳沛憶委員"},{"start":622.697,"end":627.199,"text":"我認為在台北市我們能夠加強的合作那如果有需要洽談的部分我也很樂意來進行這個幫忙所以我希望說我們故宮是不是能夠在兩個月就台北市我們來加強跟地方政府合作就我們原先希望來以故宮的量能帶動觀光的這個目標來進行合作能不能可以兩個月之內給我一個初步的評估"},{"start":649.671,"end":668.606,"text":"好,我們跟那個臺北市觀傳集的話其實我們已經開啟合作了去年的那個故宮博物館之夜海灣故宮其實就是跟觀傳集合作的這非常的好那我也希望說未來有更多的合作讓我們故宮尤其北院區在臺北市能夠帶動更多的觀光發展好不好好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149520","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149520","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbeb0b21e542d344be2dc62c46c87ca327ff8ba9b0039caa7a66aa26ffaefb95c7f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:03:44 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了解 所以我們也希望這部分不是一個因素之一啦能夠造成這種不當的影響的因素 現在把它排除那我們如何針對這個有效解決缺藥的部分本席有下列的一些想法 包括強化藥品的這個供應的主動監控那其實在去年監察院的報告裡面就告訴我們說"},{"start":202.712,"end":220.961,"text":"藥商是否能依據必要通報來處置?檢察院發現,欠缺主動監測、查核和管理的機制。不知道到目前為止已經半年的時間,有沒有再擬定改善計畫?"},{"start":222.994,"end":238.901,"text":"這部分的話齁那其實是在必要藥品我們的品齁那個一共是多少的品項481 481項的品項這我們有做但是全國在用的藥那幾萬項的話大概沒有辦法全部去看啦"},{"start":239.481,"end":255.004,"text":"是,所以如果已經有一些計畫的話那能不能夠提供免息素面資料以作為後續的追蹤那我們也知道其實推展國產的學民藥是一個未來的期待"},{"start":255.905,"end":256.906,"text":"請問目前所謂的"},{"start":273.522,"end":297.141,"text":"益助適當資源有沒有安排哪一些的適當資源在裡面?該委員報告這有關於我們在鼓勵學民藥的這一個部分的話當然也會牽涉到經濟部經濟部他對於這個比方說CDMO或其他的這個我們國內的藥廠的一些鼓勵的措施在那個"},{"start":298.402,"end":312.447,"text":"也相關的法規裡面有那在衛福部這邊的話大概就是用健保的這個方法在健保上面的一些規範來做處理也就是說我們給予這個新發展的學民藥我們會給他這個比較好的一個合價的一個"},{"start":321.61,"end":322.591,"text":"再過來就是有關於這個庫存的部分"},{"start":344.927,"end":358.743,"text":"我們也瞭解建制中盤藥商的藥品監測機制是由他主動監測的部分請問除了主動監測以外我們還有沒有其他可以主動的作為"},{"start":360.405,"end":380.866,"text":"這部分是一個我們新的措施,那要處理的對象主要是社區的藥局還有我們一些診所因為這些診所和社區藥局大概很少能夠直接跟廠商直接訂貨,因為量不夠大"},{"start":382.367,"end":402.238,"text":"所以很多都是透由中盤商來做處理所以中盤商他就會有調度的這種可能性所以在這裡的話我們新的措施裡面就是我們去監測中盤商那哪一些藥如果被通報這一個有缺藥的時候我們就看去看中盤商的"},{"start":404.779,"end":412.804,"text":"如果中環商進出狀況沒有異常的話,我們會請中環商就直接去分配,因為那個大概就會分配出問題"},{"start":413.971,"end":433.659,"text":"OK 好 謝謝部長的說明和這方面的努力那我們再過來可以瞭解藥瓶供應通報處理中心那這一部分不知道這個中心有沒有被賦予什麼樣的具體任務因為去年就是2023年4月11號貴單位為了要因應全球性缺藥問題而啟動了這個通報中心"},{"start":436.72,"end":463.135,"text":"所以這個中心我們所看到的就是這是一個平台那把五個平台的這個網路連結在這個我們的網路上面我們看到的就是包括有西藥供應平台、中藥還有公費傳染疫苗、兒童困難取得、罕病等等那這部分不曉得有沒有具體任務要透過這個處理中心來處理哪一些的事情"},{"start":464.736,"end":485.015,"text":"這部分的話那每一個這五大類的話都有一些特殊性的比如說那個罕見疾病的這個部分的話這物流中心他會去監測到底我們整個國內的剩下存量是不是對於這個罕病所需要的是夠不夠若不夠的話就要去採購那"},{"start":490.747,"end":497.615,"text":"業務比較大的應該是在西藥的這個部分是的確那我們可以往下看可以瞭解說目前這個平台的運作狀況西藥供應平台的確是"},{"start":502.428,"end":528.269,"text":"隨時在滾動,對不起我再多兩份都有在做這個即時更新可是中藥到目前一年都沒有更新還有其他的部分所以我們很期待這個運作還可以能夠更即時去反映出這個供應的這些問題我們可以往下看就知道說依照這個西藥供應平台他已經很努力的在作業那也透過這個通"},{"start":529.75,"end":543.232,"text":"包括缺藥來執行相關透過食藥署的評估進入到有替代方案、無替代方案還有其他廠商的這個輸入來辦理如果有缺藥的時候可以作業的模式那我們可以再往下看"},{"start":544.5,"end":566.773,"text":"那其中有一個問題,一個實務的困境就是當藥品短缺現象透過這個平台去緩解以後那曾經為了要緩解幫助緩解的這個廠商他如果提供了藥物那這種狀況造成說新的要來幫助緩解這個藥物不足的部分結果他進來了"},{"start":568.154,"end":568.614,"text":"我是請食藥署署長來回答"},{"start":591.994,"end":620.238,"text":"因為通報的業者其實都會跟我們說他大概是有多少時間他需要等於是有一些藥品的短缺所以我們在徵求專案製造或專案輸入的時候也會保障這一些來協助我們的業者他們不至於做了以後結果本來在賣那個藥品進來了就沒有人要買他的所以我們有這樣的時間之內不會讓那個藥品再輸入就是你已經跟我說不能輸入了所以已經有其他出來要做專案輸入的"},{"start":620.578,"end":621.219,"text":"我們謝謝王正旭委員"}]}},{"id":"149519","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149519","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe5cc6d6f998b7a4feaaa95e40c3cff622f8ba9b0039caa7a60286c07e1faf730b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"10:59:48 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11:12:23","影片長度":"00:12:35","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":755,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:12:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T10:59:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1444,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（10時59分）部長早。"],["蔡部長清祥：總召好。"],["傅委員崐萁：現在是打詐、打詐，越打越詐！已經從102年的1萬8,000件到去年的3萬7,900件，財務損失也從102年的37億到去年的88.79億，被害人數從102年的2萬4,000人到去年的5萬9,000人，難道法務部對打詐都拿不出相關的辦法來嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明，在法務部的職掌範圍內，我們也提出了相關法律的修正，在執行面上，我們也要求檢警調大家要全力以赴，來做一個有效的打擊還有偵辦。"],["傅委員崐萁：這樣啦！對於提高刑度的部分，是不是法務部可以直接提出來？"],["蔡部長清祥：刑度的提高還有構成要件的更嚴謹，各種新型態的詐騙，我們都有提出修法的建議。"],["傅委員崐萁：因為不能老是說這個是車手，對車手就從輕，其實為什麼當一個車手就有這麼高的所得，他難道沒有一點基本常識嗎？對不對？所以基本上這就是共犯之一。這個部分可能也要跟司法院溝通一下，因為對車手一切從輕，所以現在外役監幾乎都是詐騙團，詐騙團現在都在外役監，而害臺灣害得最慘的就是這群人！不說一般百姓，光我就接過不曉得多少次的詐騙電話，我接過很多次，所以法務部應該拿出辦法，去跟NCC及所有這些單位，大家一起商討出一個應對的辦法，不然我們一天到晚接到詐騙電話，這真的很奇怪。所以部長不要越打越詐，該加重刑度就加重刑度，讓這個問題至少趨勢是下降的，不要每年逐步都在上升，我們喊打詐喊了多少年！所以這個東西請部長多留意，好不好？"],["蔡部長清祥：好，謝謝。"],["傅委員崐萁：另外，我要特別請教一下，昨天臺南又出現一個天坑，在臺南中西區的五妃街，這個建設公司叫皇龍建設，也是賴清德總統當選人跟黃偉哲市長競選總部的提供者。對昨天發生的這個天坑，是不是比照一下新竹縣？貴部約談楊文科縣長還要交保，而且是重金交保，法務部是不是要硬起來給大家看一下，一樣是天坑事件，辦的方法有沒有不一樣，可以嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明，因為每一個案件它的事實內容如何是不一樣……"],["傅委員崐萁：那就趕快啟動嘛！不要跟我講個案不同，好不好？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果有涉及刑事責任的話，當然檢察官他們會依法處理。"],["傅委員崐萁：你既然講到刑事責任，那麼一樣的事情，我再請教一下，臺南市經發局陳凱凌前局長是貪污的累犯、慣犯，為什麼法務部在2022年九合一大選前，有人在臺南市當街開了88槍，88槍開完以後，又開了10槍，10槍開完，又再一個當街槍擊爆頭身亡，全國矚目這麼重大的事情！而這個陳凱凌局長本身就是貪污的累犯、慣犯，去年3月6號搜索完約談員工，員工已經講得很清楚、科員講得很清楚，陳凱凌說是上級指示的，在資料不齊備的情況之下，還要為這個光電業者來申辦。為什麼去年3月6號就搜索約談，卻要到今年的2月29號才約談黃偉哲市長，這是很奇怪的事情。這在藍營的縣市，科員講完後，隔天就搜索約談了，為什麼可以躲過這麼長的總統大選期間，隔了將近一年才來約談？部長是不是能告訴我一下？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為每一個案件，它的案情不同……"],["傅委員崐萁：不要再講每一個案件了……"],["蔡部長清祥：我沒辦法……"],["傅委員崐萁：這科員就已經講得很清楚了嘛……"],["蔡部長清祥：案件也不是我在處理的嘛！"],["傅委員崐萁：當然不是你在處理，也不是我在處理嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：但司法要讓人家信服，對不對？為什麼山水民調做出來的民調，有85%的人不相信檢察官，這個資料我發給你，你可以瞭解一下。這是創新高啊！有85%的人不相信！"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有啦！沒有那麼多啦！"],["傅委員崐萁：山水民調做的調查，你可以google一下，自己看完，下一次我再請教部長，好不好？為什麼科員都已經公開講陳凱凌局長告訴他是上級指示，局長的上級是誰？秘書長、副市長、市長？一個科員講的話，再加上他面對的這個東西，明明就是資料不全，不能辦的，為什麼可以承辦？而且又是光電案，這麼敏感的事情！然後經過將近一年才約談他的市長。局長說是上級指示，那麼上級在哪裡？這如果在藍營的縣市，我看可能隔天就約談，不認的話，就押人取供了。","所以，司法要如何讓人信服，這是非常重要的事情，這是皇后的貞操，現在還有人記得這句話嗎？皇后的貞操是怎麼樣？值多少錢？是值多少代價就可以交易的嗎？還是值多少官位就可以交易的嗎？你們應該秉公辦到底嘛！為什麼在新竹市，高虹安的事情選前就如火如荼？為什麼在臺南市發生這麼嚴重全國矚目的事情，科員也公開講了，局長告訴他上級指示，卻可以延宕一年才來約談？部長，我們要將心比心，司法是我們社會正義防線的最後一道底線，如果司法都不能正義，還談什麼國家正義？司法沒有正義，何有社會的互信？山水民調也是比較親綠的，你可以google一下，看一下它公布出來的數據，這是台灣公民聯盟請他們去做的民調。部長是在位最久的法務部長，當然我也預祝你能夠連任是最好，但這個部分至少要讓大家瞭解，85%什麼時候可以降下來？臺灣人民有85%的人認為政治辦案對檢察官有巨大影響，所以這個東西要怎麼樣把它降下來，請部長的腰桿要挺直，千萬不要有顏色辦案。","另外，本席再請教一個問題，今天你能回答就回答，不然就下一次回答。有關言論免責的部分，雖然有大法官第509號解釋，但是現在不管是網軍側翼或特定顏色的媒體，還有一般民眾，我們可以區分得出來，他就是網軍，法務部不能永遠都講因為他的IP設在國外，然後就沒有辦法。現在網軍已經起起都在國外，天天在帶風向、在洗腦、在做人身攻擊，法務部的辦法到底是什麼？能做什麼？不能永遠兩手一攤，說IP在國外，所以沒有辦法查。","再來，特定政治立場、側翼媒體，鏡電視的事情，本席在去年7月19日已經質詢過了，NCC有條件通過鏡電視的時候，已經很清楚在去年2月28日有條件通過它上架，大股東、原始股東在6年之內不得移轉。陳建平已經出來講了這麼多次，本席在去年院會質詢也請教過部長，裴偉的帳號公然匯錢給這些股東，陳耀祥也是貪污被告，你們還在用他字案，「他」到現在多久了，你們到底是辦還是不辨？一個媒體公器，一張執照價值連城，它關係到所有全國的閱聽人，但你們辦到哪裡去了？陳耀祥都要下臺了，你們辦到哪裡去了？有像辦高虹安案這麼快嗎？你們的理由是什麼？這關係到2,300萬閱聽人知的權利啊！鏡電視可以用這種態度？他的大股東早就已經移轉了。本席也告訴你，檢舉人已經具名告訴，就是在裴偉的帳號已經把錢匯給這些原始股東，查到現在查了多久了？你們清楚的去查一下，這不是個案，是重大的公共議題。本席去年請教到現在，部長，你辦一次給大家看一下嘛，好不好？我們熱烈期待你，可以回答嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：委員的指教，我都很仔細的聆聽，我們能夠做的，我一定會盡力的趕快把它完成。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，你就最大了，什麼叫作你能夠做？你當然可以做，對不對？社會矚目的案件可以不用辦嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我還是有我職權上的限制。"],["傅委員崐萁：社會矚目的案件，本來就是要立刻來處理，部長這個時候不能卸責，你是法務界的大家長，對於全國矚目的案子能夠不處理嗎？光查一個資金流程要查2年、3年、5年嗎？部長，這個事情請儘快將真相讓全國國人能夠瞭解，可以嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝指教。"],["傅委員崐萁：去年你也是跟我講謝謝指教，但我不曉得我們要指教到什麼時候，請給大家一個真相，讓全國國人能夠瞭解。謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在開始處理臨時提案1案。宣讀後再進行處理，請宣讀。","近年來檢察機關新收案數量不斷攀升，特別是暴增的詐騙案件，使原本就人力不足的檢察體系雪上加霜。基層檢察官團體大聲疾呼，許多檢察官每月新收案件數量破百，巨量案件使檢察體系偵辦案件的能量瀕臨癱瘓，籲請法務部體恤基層儘速增補人力。","此外，檢察機關人力結構設計不良，工作負擔落差巨大，再加上檢察官人力與輔佐辦案其他人員的人力數不成比例，亟待從結構面重新檢討、有效改革。","為強化犯罪偵查效能，同時避免基層人力過勞，建請法務部針對檢察官、檢察事務官、書記官、檢察官助理、法警之人力配置、職掌分工與工作負擔，進行全面檢討評估，並針對增加各類員額之必要性與具體規畫期程、人力如何重新調整配置等關鍵問題，提出完整檢討規劃報告，於一個月內送交司法及法制委員會。","提案人：黃國昌　　傅崐萁　　謝龍介　　吳宗憲　　羅智強　　林思銘　　翁曉玲　　"],["主席：請問提案委員有無補充說明？黃委員要補充說明嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：我覺得這個事情已經談滿久了，相關提案委員還有社會上面最近這段時間的討論，基層檢察官團體也發聲，他們現在面臨的辦案壓力，我們不能要馬兒跑又要馬兒不吃草，因此針對相關合理的提案，包括法律的修正，我們基本上都支持。","但問題是，在面對有關的人力需求時，請重新針對目前的人力狀況好好盤整，是不是有勞逸不均的情形，其他的輔助人員是不是有必要一併在什麼樣的程度範圍內增加？我相信行政部門會負責任的去盤點現在的狀況，提出你們的需求。因為在司法院的立法計畫裡面，已很具體的在法院組織法要增加檢察官助理，禮拜一的時候，在他們的立法計畫報告中都已經寫出來了。至於其他辦案輔助人力的部分，現在面臨的狀況到底如何，請法務部能夠一併的盤整。"],["主席：請問法務部照案辦理有沒有意見？"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝各位委員的關心，人力的需求，我們確實需要及早補充；不過要做一個全盤的盤整，請給我們多一點時間來做評估，因為一個月的時間，包括要對各種人力的職掌，還有人員的需求如何等等，是不是再長一點的時間來做規劃？"],["黃委員國昌：我們從善如流，就延到兩個月好不好？當然我也要尊重其他提案委員，包括主席在內的想法。"],["主席：我是沒意見。請問總召，本件如果延到兩個月，有無意見？"],["傅委員崐萁：法務部提出，我們敬表同意。"],["主席：請問法務部，如果改為兩個月，有沒有問題？"],["蔡部長清祥：好，可以接受。"],["主席：沒有問題的話，本件就照修正後通過。","接下來要麻煩翁曉玲委員代理主席。"],["主席（翁委員曉玲代）：接下來請吳召集委員宗憲進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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11:04:42","影片長度":"00:09:28","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":568,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:04:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T10:55:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":694,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時55分）謝謝主席，請陸委會主委。"],["主席：有請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員太三：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：主委早安。主委平常有沒有用網路搜尋一些資料？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上會，都從Google……"],["黃委員建賓：有用Google查過Google地圖嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：對，Google。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，你知道陸委會在Google上的評分是幾分嗎？1.8分！不過Google很好，它給你兩顆星。"],["邱主任委員太三：真的喔？謝謝啦！"],["黃委員建賓：主委，其實看了裡面的內容後才發現民眾對陸委會有很多不滿、很多憤慨，這個會後再請主委去瞭解。"],["邱主任委員太三：好。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，替人民做事情要實在一點，民眾一定有需求才會去尋求相關的政府資源跟協助嘛？"],["邱主任委員太三：是的。"],["黃委員建賓：本席發現陸委會在這快8年的時間裡面對大陸的政策就是「三中」：仇中、拒中跟抵中。剛好主委早上提到農業的問題，我們就拿鳳梨釋迦這件事情來談就好，去年臺東的釋迦重新輸往中國大陸，連農業部在質詢的時候都說不會放棄大陸的市場，請問主委，去年一開始恢復輸出中國大陸的時候，陸委會的說法還記得嗎？你還記得當時陸委會說什麼話嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：我們當然希望兩岸所有的貿易最好不要有其他的因素，能夠遵照過去的方式去處理。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝主委……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們對所有的農漁產品大概都是這樣的態度。"],["黃委員建賓：跟主委報告，當時陸委會說這次臺東輸出釋迦的作為是選擇性恢復，這樣的行為對其他縣市的農民來講是歧視的對待，與多年前對臺政治性的採購如出一轍，利用經濟利益對臺灣進行分化及統戰，而且批評陸方這種陳舊的政治操作手法只會使兩岸民眾的心理隔閡、漸行漸遠。農業部的代理部長陳駿季也表示，我們樂見臺灣優良的水果外銷，且強調不會放棄中國的市場，希望能透過海峽兩岸檢疫平臺來重啟對話，訂定符合國際的檢驗標準，而不是由地方政府來代行。這是本席在總質詢的時候問的問題。主委，先前陸委會說選擇性恢復臺東釋迦輸出的作法對臺灣其他縣市的農民是歧視對待，這個事情你認同嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，基本上我們期待大陸對臺灣的貿易政策就按照過去就好了。"],["黃委員建賓：主委、主委……"],["邱主任委員太三：它這樣繞過去，它為什麼只選擇幾個縣市？"],["黃委員建賓：是，主委，你這樣講是不能用選擇性嘛，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，你是否有瞭解……"],["邱主任委員太三：因為所有的貿易基本上大家都能一致性。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，我跟你說一個數據，民國110年全臺灣的鳳梨釋迦總產量是2,381萬490公斤，臺東縣政府收成的鳳梨釋迦是2,335萬6,037公斤，占全臺的98%，9成的釋迦都是臺東的，哪裡來的選擇性？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，我想委員應該很清楚它為什麼要特別選定臺東，除了你講的……"],["黃委員建賓：沒有，以水果來看嘛。"],["邱主任委員太三：臺東占9成這樣的一個生產性，但是其他縣市也有啊！這樣不是對其他縣市……"],["黃委員建賓：9成都是臺東，所以是選擇對臺東比較好？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，你剛剛提到臺東占9成，我大概可以理解、可以接受，但問題是其他縣市還是有，對不對？"],["黃委員建賓：主委，這就是仇中啦！"],["邱主任委員太三：第二個，它的選擇只有那幾個所謂的集散場，坦白講，這應該不需要再去選擇，只要是政府檢驗合格的應該都可以。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，我們再談到農業部代理部長陳駿季所說的，希望透過海峽兩岸檢疫平臺重啟對話，這不是由臺東縣政府，不是由地方來代為執行，主委，這樣農業部部長是不是在指責陸委會失責？"],["邱主任委員太三：什麼？"],["黃委員建賓：為什麼是由臺東縣政府跟對岸來談，而不是兩岸來對談？這是不是在指責陸委會失責？"],["邱主任委員太三：對，所以大陸基本上應該是要跟我們，其實不是跟陸委會啦，委員，有關於農產品的檢疫，雙方簽有一個協議，它其實是由對岸的海關總署跟臺灣的……"],["黃委員建賓：這個協議應該是ECFA的5項協議嘛？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是、不是、不是。"],["黃委員建賓：ECFA裡面不是有……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們兩岸的各種事務有簽了大概26個協議，有關農漁產品的檢疫。"],["黃委員建賓：是，如果我們有貿易爭端的時候，是不是有一個協調爭議的機制可以處理？"],["邱主任委員太三：如果是屬於ECFA的，有 ECFA的處理機制，如果是檢疫的，有檢疫的處理機制，就是按照那26項，我再提供委員那26項協議，它各有各的處理機制。原則上是權責機關有一個對口，我們的權責機關會發文給對岸，對岸大概也會發文給我們。"],["黃委員建賓：這個最終結果還是由臺東縣政府去談嘛。"],["邱主任委員太三：那是因為它選擇臺東縣政府。"],["黃委員建賓：那我們有去找他們談過嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：我們有表達希望能夠透過……"],["黃委員建賓：那知道問題出在哪裡嗎？結果後來最簡單的問題就是從微生物檢驗的粉介殼蟲這件事情，就從這個部分解決而已。好，主委，我們不要……"],["邱主任委員太三：從國台辦的說法，當然我們知道它是有政治上的意涵。"],["黃委員建賓：但我還是強調一開始講的，我們還是希望能夠透過協議的機制來解決貿易爭端。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，很好。"],["黃委員建賓：好，這個問題我們先到這邊，我繼續要講的是，主委其實之前當過我們的檢察官對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["黃委員建賓：去年選舉期間我們不是有很多民眾到大陸去遊玩嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["黃委員建賓：他們回來之後有很多人都被帶去偵訊，就是村里長都被偵訊嘛。"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["黃委員建賓：後來成罪被判刑的有多少件？"],["邱主任委員太三：這個恐怕要問法務部，因為這件事情……"],["黃委員建賓：比例多嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：我不知道，因為我現在不是當法務部長，就我的瞭解，當時的緣起應該是法務部的某個單位發覺有所謂招待的這種情事出現，所以才會提。"],["黃委員建賓：回來之後成案的應該不多啦，我記得應該不多，多的話新聞應該就會報很多。主委，這個會後你再自己瞭解一下。"],["邱主任委員太三：選完大概就低調處理。"],["黃委員建賓：我只是想要表達，如果臺灣人去大陸玩回來就要被偵訊，這個是不是拒中？另外，我也建議啦，如果因為這樣子，我們是不是要訂定一個臺灣人到大陸旅遊的指南？你可以去哪邊玩，不能去哪邊玩，你可以跟誰接觸，不能跟哪邊接觸，不然就乾脆直接宣布我們不要再去大陸，這樣是不是比較好？"],["邱主任委員太三：因為憲法保障人民遷徙移動的自由，所以我們沒有辦法去規範。"],["黃委員建賓：這樣出去玩的人會緊張啊！他回來之後……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們會提醒，就像您剛剛提到的，我們的網站確實真的要加強，我們會提醒赴陸的時候大概要注意哪些事。"],["黃委員建賓：對嘛，因為你看，回來就被調查站叫去偵訊，他只是去大陸玩，回來就被偵訊，所以我還是提醒主委啦，陸委會應該是最瞭解中國大陸的人，主委你還曾經擔任過民進黨兩岸協議監督條例小組的召集人，我們在這次的報告裡面沒有看到要進行兩岸協議監督條例的立法，每次問到這些問題你們就會說已經有修法了，我想我們修法的部分是政治協議，不是攸關民生經濟。主委，你會不會繼續推動相關的立法，針對民生經濟的問題？"],["邱主任委員太三：恐怕不是只有單純的政治因素，只要是有政治性影響的協議都包括在裡面。第二個大概就是如果有涉及法律或法令修改的，也要再到立法院來，那個當時的機制是這樣。當然，政治性的協議就更繁瑣了，後面的程序就更多了。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委的說明，本席還是堅持兩岸的互動就是要公開透明，而且要站在一個建立法制的基礎上面，所以推動兩岸協議監督條例是刻不容緩的重大政策，請主委再加油，也可以解決我們未來兩岸的問題。"],["邱主任委員太三：好，我們再來檢視過去所有的狀況，是不是如委員建議的有修法的必要，我們來檢視一下。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝主委。"],["邱主任委員太三：謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝建賓委員的質詢，謝謝主委。","現在請建賓委員暫代一下主席的位置，謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員建賓代）：現在我們請高金素梅召集委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":268,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-4","speakers":["高金素梅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","羅智強","王美惠","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","張智倫","許宇甄"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.03034375,"end":5.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.042843750000001,"end":5.684093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.81909375,"end":6.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.000343750000001,"end":8.063468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.337218750000002,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.46784375,"end":13.058468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.058468750000003,"end":13.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.52659375,"end":18.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.762218750000002,"end":20.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.926593750000002,"end":21.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.93909375,"end":22.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.74471875,"end":25.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.23784375,"end":26.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.53721875,"end":29.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.55784375,"end":31.097843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.127218750000004,"end":34.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.70909375,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.438468750000006,"end":38.877218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.282218750000006,"end":39.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.48471875,"end":40.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.205968750000004,"end":43.180343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.53471875,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.43721875,"end":46.875968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.213468750000004,"end":49.525343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.87971875,"end":50.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.11596875,"end":50.149718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.18346875,"end":54.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.32596875,"end":58.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.09346875000001,"end":60.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.73034375,"end":61.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.62034375,"end":64.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.64096875,"end":66.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.65346875,"end":67.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.71659375,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.12534375,"end":74.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.36534375000001,"end":74.95596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.76596875,"end":77.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.42784375000001,"end":80.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.25034375,"end":84.45659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.91221875000001,"end":95.61096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.55596875,"end":98.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.99846875,"end":100.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.31909375000001,"end":113.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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很多的憤慨那這個會後再請主委去了解不過可以看到 主委替林明做事情比較實在民眾一定有需求才會去尋求相關政府的資源跟協助 是的"},{"start":56.64,"end":77.226,"text":"本席在這八年裡面發現其實我們入會這八年都來這快八年的時間對台流政策有三宗籌中、聚中跟抵中跟主委來剛好主委早上有提到農業的問題我們就拿鳳梨釋迦這件事情來談就好"},{"start":79.468,"end":97.135,"text":"我們去年臺東縣政府臺東的釋迦重新輸往中國大陸那連我們農業部在質詢的時候都說齁他不會放棄大陸的市場我想要請問主委去年一開始恢復輸出中國大陸的時候陸委會的說法還記得嗎你還可以同時我們會說什麼"},{"start":100.411,"end":127.629,"text":"我們當然希望說兩岸的所有的貿易最好不要有其他的因素能夠遵照過去的模式去處理所有的農漁產品我們大概都是這樣的一個態度跟主委報告當時陸委會說這一次的台中輸出釋迦的作為是選擇性恢復這樣的行為對其他縣市的農民來講是歧視的對待"},{"start":129.073,"end":147.197,"text":"一多年前對臺政治性的採購如出一策利用經濟利益對臺灣進行分化及統戰而且批評陸方這種成就的政策操作手法只會使兩岸的民眾心理隔閡漸行漸遠我們陸夥的台立的部長陳俊濟也表示說我們樂見臺灣優良的水果外銷也強調不會放棄中國的市場"},{"start":157.279,"end":171.771,"text":"希望透過海峽兩岸檢疫平台重啟對話,定定符合國際檢驗標準,而不是由地方政府代行。這是本席在總質詢時問的問題。選擇性恢復台中市下的做法,對台灣其他管治的農民是歧視對待。這個事情你認同嗎?"},{"start":181.798,"end":182.779,"text":"主委我跟您說一個數據"},{"start":202.947,"end":219.756,"text":"如果110年全台灣的鳳梨施加的總產量是2381490公斤然後台東縣政府收成的鳳梨施加是23356037公斤它佔了全台的98%高盛的社區都是台東對來的選擇性"},{"start":233.237,"end":253.494,"text":"沒有啦,委員,我想委員應該很清楚嘛那他為什麼要特別選定台東因為以水果來看嘛台東佔了九成的這樣的一個生產性但是其他縣市也有啊九成都是台東所以是選擇台東比較好台東佔九成我大概可以理解可以接受但是問題其他縣市還是有啊"},{"start":255.728,"end":256.068,"text":"農業代理部長陳俊基說的"},{"start":275.678,"end":288.87,"text":"這個希望透過海峽兩岸協議平台重啟對話不是由台東縣政府不是由地方來待會之前主委江文部長是不是會指責我們陸委會指責陸委會施責為什麼是由台東縣政府跟對岸來談而不是兩岸來對談"},{"start":292.914,"end":297.958,"text":"道路基本上應該是要跟我們其實不是跟陸委會有關於農產品的檢疫雙方簽了一個協議他其實是由對岸的海關總署"},{"start":309.718,"end":314.962,"text":"我們兩岸各種的事務有簽了大概26個協議如果是屬於ECFA的有ECFA的處理機制如果是檢疫的有檢疫的處理機制"},{"start":330.592,"end":341.699,"text":"就是說按照26項我再跟委員做提供那個26項協議他各有他的處理機制那原則上是由權責機關有一個對口我們的權責機關會發文給對岸那對岸大概也會發文給我們對最終結果還是董事長跟我們去談嗎"},{"start":352.952,"end":379.409,"text":"那是因為他選擇臺東縣政府那我們有去找他們談過嗎?我們有表達希望能夠透過...阿剛才問題出在哪裡?結果後來最簡單的問題就是說從維生物檢驗的粉芥和蟲這件事情就從這個部分解決而已好主委從國大辦的說法當然我們知道他是在政治上的意涵但我們還是還是強烈從一開始講的我們還是希望能夠透過我們有協議的機制來解決我們的貿易爭端很好"},{"start":383.829,"end":402.223,"text":"好,我們這個問題先到這邊,我繼續講的就是說主委你,主委之前擔過我們的檢察官對不對?對所以我們去年選舉期間不是有很多民眾到大陸去遊玩嗎?對那回來之後很多人都被帶去徵訊嗎?嗯那後來我們這個陳翠被判刑有多少件?"},{"start":407.421,"end":413.667,"text":"這個恐怕要問法務部因為這件事情我現在不是當法務部長那我的了解當時的緣起應該是法務部的某個單位他們發覺有這個所謂招待的這種情勢出現"},{"start":424.079,"end":424.179,"text":"另外："},{"start":443.069,"end":455.949,"text":"如果因為這樣子我也建議啦我們今天我們是要訂定一個臺灣人到大陸旅遊指南你可以去哪邊玩不能去哪邊玩你可以跟誰接觸不能去哪邊接觸不然就乾脆直接宣佈我們不要再去大陸了這樣是不是比較好"},{"start":457.156,"end":485.458,"text":"因為憲法保障人民遷徙移動的自由我們會提醒就像您剛剛提到我們網站真的確實要加強但是我們大概會提醒復入的時候大概要注意啦對啦因為委員回來回來就被調查要去徵訊我只是去大陸玩回來被徵訊所以我想還是要提醒主委啦主委應該是最了解中國大陸的人"},{"start":487.19,"end":498.611,"text":"主委你還曾經擔任過民進黨兩岸協議監督條例小組的召集人所以我們在這次的報告裡面沒有看到要進行兩岸協議監督條例的立法"},{"start":499.42,"end":518.343,"text":"我們每次問到一些問題就說我們已經有修法了我想我們修法的部分是政治協議不是攸關民生經濟那跟主委講你會不會繼續推動相關的地方降低民生經濟的問題恐怕不是只有單純政治性只要有政治性的影響的協議都包括在裡面"},{"start":518.883,"end":519.744,"text":"本協議堅持兩岸互動要公開透明"},{"start":541.284,"end":541.464,"text":"主席主席"}]}},{"id":"149517","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149517","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbea74c4ab8b6a0233735d7358300cbb288f8ba9b0039caa7a60f88cedc769e972e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:44:14 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主委這個最要緊本來要跟你說說的說到現在都沒做完"},{"start":257.603,"end":258.164,"text":"王美惠議員"},{"start":273.259,"end":281.485,"text":"董事長,我認為他們多方監督,這單位有說他們有很多人去,但是他們的授意當然是我們要進一步的更認真了解,我們想說以前平潭這個地方,到底是這種運作到什麼程度,我們有委託一些人來幫我們做進一步的了解,這我們也要進一步的了解"},{"start":297.975,"end":305.524,"text":"不要吵架不要吵架,我們也要努力,改善它好,不然這段時間這幾天你看到的有利空、利銀行,鳳梨、水果、魚、有的沒的、黑白金、金跟藏水金的"},{"start":317.959,"end":319.279,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":339.764,"end":340.004,"text":"說你這樣是違反民主黨法律．對的．．．．．．．．"},{"start":358.715,"end":366.739,"text":"都要看台灣對阿強阿什麼態度阿強阿對台灣什麼態度啦是各自都要看的都要評論的啦在這裏面我們還要跟你探討一下我們陸森在二月初的開始還可以來加入我們的健保嘛在這裏面目前為止陸森來到台灣最緊要兩千人嘛"},{"start":386.808,"end":394.033,"text":"有八百萬人已經加入檢報,來,我要來你請教,因為這檢報不是你的職權啊,但是陸生來我們台灣的生活和種種的問題,你如果想說,是怎麼還有這麼多人沒有加入,是什麼原因?來,當時地方的諸位你知道嗎?"},{"start":411.994,"end":414.637,"text":"因為我們當初檢報檢報的規定就是要來台灣居留"},{"start":428.211,"end":428.471,"text":"王美惠議員主席"},{"start":453.641,"end":455.663,"text":"在裡面有種種的原因基中就是你剛才說的這個原因是沒有"},{"start":475.786,"end":488.049,"text":"來啦來一開始是因為這個名詞沒講所以檢保署就是說我這樣不可以因為我感覺這是我們台灣人的危機啦也是要照顧他們這裡的孩子來台灣的車大家是互相的啦你看到回來的時候你有去思考台灣孩子去"},{"start":503.612,"end":519.624,"text":"大陸阿基隆阿塔塞的時候,他對那些孩子的照顧,包括你們的網站,在本省所了解的,你們告訴我,阿基隆孩子怎麼主委,三八點出來,本省的感覺,你三八八點,就很害了。"},{"start":524.941,"end":532.745,"text":"所以說你們這個晚上,要去注意啦!那為了正當的報告,現在已經是三月了都沒有改過,我們也要補充一下,要注意什麼一個,對不對?因為孩子去到,我們不是反對他去那裡讀書,是有時候要去注意的方法啦!因為本身,要跟你說的時候,我們就是有了解有什麼,我們也要補充"},{"start":553.877,"end":573.928,"text":"我們台灣孩子在那裡踏車或是在那裡爸爸媽媽做生意的在那裡踏車任何發生的事情都很可能再來我請問我們董事長董事長你下令營也幾位未來也要幾位三定位時本身所了解應該是在中部、南部"},{"start":579.071,"end":584.134,"text":"都沒幾位啦,因為在這,我要讓董事長跟先辦理員說,嘉義關、嘉義市、南部是一個好地方,有機文化是非常好,所有運盲"},{"start":595.279,"end":609.167,"text":"可以去到南部嘉義市尤其嘉義縣有一個阿里山嘉義市是非常豐富的認證米所以你們要納入下去因為我剛才看你們的"},{"start":610.968,"end":633.262,"text":"委員報告時．該做的事有做到自己．是好壞還是怎樣．未來這三位都沒有在南部的自己．所以我覺得你們要先去處理．要平衡一下．讓他們了解台灣的自由民主的國家．委員報告一下第一天就算自己．"},{"start":639.509,"end":640.576,"text":"麻煩用輸入報告提問"}]}},{"id":"149516","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149516","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe6f318ec0762af5ed52afbb2d65d0dae1f8ba9b0039caa7a69d885b65af5a7bb55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"10:58:44 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11:08:04","影片長度":"00:09:20","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-3"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":560,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:08:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T10:58:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":505,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時58分）主席好，有請部長上臺。"],["主席：來，部長請。"],["邱部長國正：林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：部長好。部長長年擔任保家衛國的重責，年輕的時候留美，又留學非洲，擔任過退輔會的主委以及國安局的局長，現在你擔任國防部長，所以都在守護臺灣人民的安全，相信全國的人民都是有目共睹的，然而目前國際的局勢其實十分的危險不安，臺灣的國防安全更是危機重重。我想請問部長，全臺灣現在有幾條可以讓戰機起降的戰備道？"],["邱部長國正：高速公路上大概有五個還是六個點，臺中那邊其實可能委員要問臺中，但我不預設了，我大概就五個，有包含佳冬。"],["林委員憶君：好，再請問部長，這五條戰備道過去進行了幾次實際的起降演練呢？"],["邱部長國正：大概每一個都有做過一次或兩次，每一個點上都做過了，這個我肯定的。"],["林委員憶君：好，在臺海防衛戰中，戰備道對於空軍的戰力有非常重要的意義，因為每次戰備道的開設，其實都是非常的不容易。然後國軍的軍事演練當中，每次的演習基本上都是3種型號的主力戰機各1架，加上鷹眼預警機，其實都還停留在跑道上的驗證階段。部長，這樣對嗎？"],["邱部長國正：當然有機會我們還是要把握，就演練來說，演練還是必要的啦！"],["林委員憶君：一般我們談到戰備道的起降，就會想到瑞典、芬蘭和瑞士，其實波蘭去年的時候，有為期4天的軍事演習，當中有4種不同的航空聯隊，輪流在波蘭一條的戰備道上，至少演練了12次的起降，這跟臺灣的過去戰備道起降的演練相比，好像更加貼近實戰化。請問部長同意嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我同意啊，但是我們國情的狀況，委員也應該能夠瞭解。我們國軍從來不規避或認為麻煩不做，越麻煩我們越要做，因為麻煩當中就磨練、訓練出我們怎麼樣來從事準備的項目，這都是正面的。"],["林委員憶君：好，國防部的努力和難處，其實本席都可以瞭解，但是本席還是希望，國防部要努力讓這種演練，盡可能的貼近實際的情況。像國防部昨天開始執行跨子夜的飛行訓練，不是也頂著可能被居民罵的壓力，來做了夜間的作戰訓練嗎？雖然本席也曾經被民眾陳情反映過，但是針對這件事情，本席還是非常支持國防部的作法，只是如何讓民眾瞭解還有做好敦親睦鄰的工作，這個可能就是要考驗國防部的智慧了。"],["邱部長國正：是，的確我們還要強化跟持續民間的溝通、地方的諒解，但我們也會儘量減少對民眾的干擾。"],["林委員憶君：好，在這邊還有兩點要呼籲部長，第一個，就是戰備道的起降，應該要常態化的納入軍事演習，不要怕麻煩，因為平常多流汗，戰爭的時候就會少流血。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["林委員憶君：第二個，戰備道起降的演練，要盡可能貼近實戰化，往最壞的狀況去想定、去演練，不要永遠都是一樣的劇本在重操演練。"],["邱部長國正：這個是一定的，我們只要環境許可，哪怕方向不同來起降，或者準備時間越來越短的起降，這都是訓練的範疇啦！"],["林委員憶君：另外想請問部長，我們東部第6條的戰備道已經傳聞很久了，但為何到現在都還是紙上談兵呢？直到前2天，開始又傳出有新的路段，請問部長，這一次是不是真的會去做呢？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，剛好也跟所有在場人員做說明，國軍戰備跑道不是因為要建戰備跑道才要建這個路，而是因為地方政府或相關部會要建一條路，而我們國軍參與，覺得這一條路還蠻平整的，稍微拓寬，然後土質把它給改善一下，就可以列為戰備跑道，所以這個工作沒有停。假如地方政府或者哪一部會，覺得這個地方大概環評有問題或如何，它停了，我們也就停了。"],["林委員憶君：好，沒有關係，在東部開設戰備跑道有兩個好處，因為有中央山脈的屏障，所以戰時相對西部的戰備道，其實存活性會比較高。第二，因為人口的密度低，所以演習時間開設戰備道，對交通的影響也比較小。所以想請部長，一定要努力促成花東地區戰備跑道的建設。"],["邱部長國正：好的，我絕對努力，對國軍有利嘛！"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。部長，最近我國有第一艘自建的潛艦海鯤號，終於在移動到台船乾塢的過程中露出了它的全貌，我們臺灣可以自行研發潛艦，其實這是非常辛苦的，肯定是我們外界很難想像的。想請問部長，海鯤軍艦的潛望鏡、桅桿，還有電瓶的安裝完成了嗎？"],["邱部長國正：完成才能夠做泊港……"],["林委員憶君：海鯤艦現在的進度，到底是在建造階段的末端，還是已經……"],["主席：本席提醒一下，如果涉及機敏報告的話，不可以在這邊討論喔！"],["邱部長國正：是，但是有些工作它已經封殼，就代表它的功能已經具備了。"],["林委員憶君：OK，好，我就是說一下，我們海鯤艦的測試工作就是要穩穩的做，千萬不要受到任何的政治干擾，可以嗎？"],["邱部長國正：絕對不會受到干擾，我們一切以安全，而且的確要通過測評，我們才能夠啟用它，這是絕對的，畢竟人命關天，謝謝委員。"],["林委員憶君：OK。自製潛艦開始形成戰力之前，我們最重要有一個水下戰力，就是兩艘的劍龍級。所以想請教部長，去年海虎軍艦人員落水的意外，已經完成事故調查了，是嗎？"],["邱部長國正：人員還在搜尋當中，但是有初步調查，海軍要不要說明一下？"],["林委員憶君：好，沒關係，請問部長，你同不同意國防部有責任必須向社會做一個完整的交代呢？"],["邱部長國正：我先跟委員報告，任何事情發生都是遺憾，國防部難辭其咎，但我們檢討問題應從三方面：環境、機械跟人為，環境，當時環境不好；機械，它的確出了問題，因此我們就看人為，人為方面，它這個程序處理都得當的，所以我們當初沒有對艦長或相關人員做一個懲處，是這個原因……"],["林委員憶君：沒關係，軍艦人員落水事件，我覺得來龍去脈要好好交代清楚。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["林委員憶君：因為美國海軍在過去幾年，比較嚴重的海上事故，都有公開非常詳細的事故調查報告。我覺得像美軍這一種透明公開的作法，其實可以破除很多質疑，也可以讓社會還有讓大家更相信軍隊。"],["邱部長國正：好，這個我們應該做的。"],["林委員憶君：所以本席還是呼籲部長，試著出一份事故調查報告，內容長短沒有關係，至少要能夠更清楚地破除所有的質疑，這樣民眾才會對軍隊更加的信任。"],["邱部長國正：是，我們調查以後，經過一個公正單位他們認定了，我們自然會公開，委員急著需要的話，我請海軍現在跟委員說明。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝，最後本席還要提醒部長一下，我們對美國採購的400枚陸基魚叉飛彈，為何到目前還是延遲交貨的狀況呢？可不可以請部長，務必持續向美國方面傳達臺灣防衛需求的急迫性呢？"],["邱部長國正：是，我跟委員報告，我們軍購的案子有些的確有延宕，我們不但追著美方，也透過很多管道，不光是國防部、駐外人員還有外交部，各管道都有在做。戰規司司長他很清楚，到目前的狀況，我讓他簡單做說明，好不好？"],["主席：請摘要說明。"],["李司長世強：有關魚叉飛彈的部分，它一直都按照現在的進度在走，但是包含接裝的訓練還有其他的部分，我們也跟美方一直在積極爭取。"],["主席：進度有沒有延遲？"],["李司長世強：報告沒有延遲。"],["林委員憶君：好，如果國防部一直在努力，到時候看看進度的情況，然後再來書面報告……"],["邱部長國正：好的。"],["林委員憶君：還是我們再來討論一下，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝林憶君委員，部長請回。林委員如果關心海昌，我們未來也許海昌可以用祕密專報的方式瞭解，現在海昌就是海鯤號那一個工廠的進度，到時候再跟你匯報，謝謝。好，部長請坐。","接下來進行詢答的委員是鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員，時間5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-3","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","馬文君","陳永康","洪申翰","林楚茵","林憶君","鄭天財Sra 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這個的確我們還是要強化跟持續民間的溝通地方的諒解但我們也會來把我們儘量的減少對這個民眾的干擾好不好在這邊還有兩點"},{"start":206.934,"end":222.918,"text":"要呼籲部長的就是第一個就是戰備道的起降應該要長化性的納入軍事演習不要怕麻煩因為平常多流汗戰爭的時候就會少流血第二個是戰備道的起降的演練要盡可能貼近實戰化盡可能往最壞的狀況去想定去演練不要永遠都是一樣的劇本在重操演練"},{"start":232.213,"end":234.835,"text":"另外想請問部長,我們東部第6條的戰備道聽說已經開始傳聞很久了,但為何到現在都還是紙上談兵呢?直到前兩天開始又傳出有新的路段,請問部長這一次是不是真的會去做呢?"},{"start":264.522,"end":288.088,"text":"國軍戰備跑道不是因為要建戰備跑道才要建這個路而是因為地方政府相關部會要建一條路我們國軍參與HAC聯盟還蠻平整的稍微拓寬土質把它給改善一下就可以列為戰備跑道所以這個工作沒有停加上地方政府或者哪一部會覺得這個地方在環評有問題他停了我們也就停了"},{"start":288.308,"end":288.668,"text":"我絕對努力,對國軍有利。"},{"start":315.543,"end":334.854,"text":"部長最近我們有我國有第一艘自建的潛艦海昆號終於在移動到臺船的乾污的過程中露出了它的全貌那我們臺灣其實可以自行研發潛艦其實這是非常辛苦的肯定是我們外界很難想像的想請問部長海昆軍艦的潛望鏡還有軌桿還有電瓶的安裝完成了嗎"},{"start":346.478,"end":358.631,"text":"那海昆建現在的進度到底是在建造階段的末端,還是已經...是,但是有些工作他已經以風格就代表他的功能已經具備了"},{"start":359.332,"end":377.626,"text":"那我就是說一下就是我們海昆縣的測試工作就是要穩穩的做千萬不要受到任何的政治干擾可以嗎?絕對不會受到干擾我們一切以安全而且的確要通過測評我們才能夠啟用它這絕對的畢竟人命關天啊是謝謝委員OK"},{"start":387.433,"end":402.702,"text":"致致潛艦中開始形成戰力之前,我們最重要有一個水下戰力,就是現兩艘的艦龍級,所以想請教部長,去年海虎軍艦人員落水的意外,已經完成事故調查了是嗎?"},{"start":403.662,"end":431.033,"text":"人員還在搜尋當中但是有調查處調查海軍要說明一下好沒關係那請問部長你同不同意國防部有責任必須向社會做一個完整的交代呢所以我先跟委員報告任何事情發生都是遺憾國防部難辭其咎但我們檢討問題是從三方面環境機械跟人為環境當時環境不好"},{"start":432.073,"end":433.634,"text":"軍艦人員落水事件來龍去脈要好好交代清楚"},{"start":453.289,"end":470.367,"text":"美國海軍在過去幾年啊比較嚴重的海上事故都有公開非常詳細的事故調查報告我覺得像美軍這種透明公開的做法其實可以破除很多質疑也可以讓社會還有讓大家更相信軍隊"},{"start":472.535,"end":494.928,"text":"所以本席還是呼籲部長試著出一份事故調查報告內容長短沒有關係至少要能夠更清楚的破除所有的質疑這樣民眾才會對軍隊更加的信任所以我們有調查以後經過一個公正單位他們認定的我們是自然會公開但委員那邊其實需要的話我請海軍跟委員做說明"},{"start":495.268,"end":497.469,"text":"最後本席還有要提醒部長一下我們對美國採購的400枚陸基魚車飛彈為何到目前還是延遲交貨的狀況呢?可不可以請部長務必持續向美國方面傳達台灣防衛需求的急迫性呢?"},{"start":514.597,"end":514.737,"text":"有關魚叉飛彈的部分"},{"start":535.822,"end":536.022,"text":"謝謝林憶君委員"}]}},{"id":"149515","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149515","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe9436fe8230295246dc62c46c87ca327ff8ba9b0039caa7a613fc10165ccd88f95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:53:42 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那請一下我們薛部長好 邀請部長"},{"start":23.369,"end":49.478,"text":"委員好部長那今天因為今天我看今天大家也是針對我們蘇丹紅的事件因為媒體一直在報導那記得在那天委員會的時候有詢問就是說這個部分其實在去年我們邊境查驗就已經查獲9件查獲9件那我說為什麼行政院3次的食安匯報還有一次的我們食安專報總檢討都沒有提到這個問題"},{"start":52.819,"end":73.236,"text":"那我記得我們部長好像回覆說,你說這個問題是需要累積的,是不是這樣?對,因為其實是七件啦,去年是七件,七件是分布在不同的月份那我們納悶的是,其實他短短不到一年的時間就已經查獲了九件,那九件這樣子累積數量還不夠嗎?"},{"start":75.097,"end":100.876,"text":"對,所以到後來我們就是變成100%的抽菸的原因就在所以今天我也是提醒一下部長像這個你看即使已經查過那麼多件當下如果我們趕快超前部署趕快處理我覺得這個蘇丹雄事件應該不會爆發到這種程度前面第一時間沒有處理好你看後來到後市場端現在到已經一發不可收拾而且到底有多少食品我相信一定是陸陸續續爆發"},{"start":102.737,"end":125.683,"text":"已經變成不是辣椒粉 咖哩粉 連很多的食品只要有染色顏色的問題我看都有參這個蘇丹紅所以我們現在準備要做的一件事情就是我們會把這個特點像蘇丹紅這類的不應該出現在食品裡面的這種工業染料工業原料的話我們會把它列為所謂的高危的這一個"},{"start":129.284,"end":134.807,"text":"那我想請問一下,你們民進黨高層有沒有受益說我們520之後,我們部長還有我們的食藥署署長有沒有機會繼續留任?署長是事務官,所以520會影響到的是我"},{"start":155.135,"end":180.425,"text":"那部長你自己的看法呢?所以部長還是如果有機會還是繼續留任嗎?那署長有沒有意願繼續留任?還是看上面的意思?因為今天國民黨有召開記者會要求我們吳署長應該要下台負責我想了解一下署長對自己這件事情的看法"},{"start":182.185,"end":203.751,"text":"因為他是事務官事務官有事務官的體制所以我想他個人這一個的話不表示意見不需要表示意見所以部長跟署長針對這事情就是順勢啦看上面怎麼安排就怎麼做那是我那請部長跟吳署長回答那我請問健保署的署長好謝謝涂委員好"},{"start":209.777,"end":228.867,"text":"市署長我最近因為針對那個陸配入籍的問題有影響到健保的問題那我想請問一下我們外籍人士在臺灣他來有持居留文件之後他什麼條件下可以參加健保"},{"start":230.646,"end":252.194,"text":"我們是根據這個健保法第9條的規定如果有居留證明文件之後那麼分成三種樣態一種是如果是受僱受聘的話那麼立刻就可以加入健保有關係我們簡單回答正常有居留文件數滿6個月就可以參加健保如果是受僱的話馬上就可以加入健保"},{"start":252.614,"end":281.435,"text":"那如果沒有受雇的情形下的話就要有6個月那我請問一下這些外籍人士他有包含這個入港澳嗎?就是像大陸啊澳門啊香港這些都是屬於那個第9條的規定所以所有的外籍人士包含入配包含入港澳這些都是在外籍人士所以他正常來講規範都是一樣的嘛"},{"start":281.975,"end":299.464,"text":"對,我們是在健保法第8條規定具有中華民國國籍,我國國籍,第9條是沒有國籍的所以這個參加健保並不會因為他陸配入籍6年或4年,其實他的規範是一樣的只要哪一台居留滿他的規範是一樣的,對不對"},{"start":301.004,"end":322.269,"text":"這個條件是一個是居留這名文件那這個陸配的並不會因為陸配6年4年的關係影響陸配沒有影響對所以都是一樣的對好那所以我們就說陸港澳及外籍人士只要持有居留文件並在台居留滿6個月他的條件是一樣都可以參加健保而且我們的"},{"start":324.35,"end":342.588,"text":"總統當選人賴清德之前也有講他說健保牽涉的是我們的健康人權所以人權是沒有國界的那當然包含我們的外配、陸配等等他居然已經嫁來台灣我覺得嫁來台灣他就是我們的家人那居然是我們的家人我們就不應該要有所歧視對不對"},{"start":343.709,"end":370.382,"text":"目前的話外籍配偶的條件都一致沒有錯對嘛所以基本上他這個參加健保還有我們賴清德有講這個人權無國界然後我覺得說嫁來台灣大家都是平等的對待那所以我們針對我們民進黨政府他在兩公約第三次國家報告的時候都會講大陸配偶來台取得身份證的年限調整與外籍配偶一致"},{"start":370.862,"end":397.402,"text":"已經擬聚臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第17條的新修正草案現在就等立法院完成這個立法的程序所以這個當初就是我們民進黨提出的那我們來講政黨在政策的延續上是沒有分政黨的所以當初民進黨提出這個還沒有完成那我請問一下我們國民黨接續完成哪裡有什麼不對"},{"start":398.163,"end":422.977,"text":"不過跟委員報告剛剛講的是在配偶本身那麼權益不論是哪個國籍大家權益相當不過呢是最主要是在陸配的依親的規定上呢那麼跟其他是有不一樣那依親的那一塊確實因為年紀都是比較大的那對健保的影響那當然就是會涉及到較少用多的問題所以我說這個目標其實大家是一致的嘛"},{"start":423.377,"end":438.34,"text":"既然嫁來臺灣就是我們家人我們就不應該有所歧視嗎那我請問一下據我們署長這邊來瞭解一般外籍配偶來臺他大部分的年齡大部分年齡大概在什麼年齡層"},{"start":440.625,"end":460.544,"text":"當然都是比較年輕的啦這個我根據當然在健保裡面是不會去特別去註記你是外籍配偶啦那這是勾結起來當然他的這個對啊所以一般就是比較年輕的嘛那我們以正常常態我們可以知道一般比較年輕力壯其實他看病的機會數是會比年長人少"},{"start":461.752,"end":474.305,"text":"比例來講以我們現在就入籍配偶來講他現在的繳的保費跟醫療的支出大概是平衡的對啊所以我的意思是說還有就是說醫輕的問題像我們醫輕"},{"start":477.068,"end":502.148,"text":"我們據我們了解他這來台一清一年的名額也大概只有60個所以我們針對最近有一些很多的問題尤其我們民進黨政府還有我們這個主管單位我們常常針對假新聞假訊息我們都說要澄清要來打擊這假新聞假訊息可是我剛剛問了很多的問題目前這很多的假新聞假訊息都在流竄"},{"start":503.089,"end":525.052,"text":"不知道我們健保署針對這些很多的假新聞假訊息你們看到之後有沒有針對這些做一些調整跟委員報告現在的正義點主要可能在醫輕的部分因為醫輕剛剛也提到他的年齡上是比較高的醫療的使用率是高但是跟國人不同的是他是從加入健保之後才開始繳費"},{"start":525.832,"end":539.716,"text":"有關係我希望我們比照辦理有時候主管單位針對假新聞假訊息我覺得還是要提出嚴正的說明那我們針對現在我們健保砍這個藥價我請問一下我們這個去年也爆發這個缺藥風波那現在我們要調降這個藥價那會不會也造成大缺藥之亂跟委員報告這一次調價的時候我們都有通知廠商"},{"start":553.499,"end":554.881,"text":"據我們了解現在好像調降的大部分都是慢性用藥對不對?"},{"start":569.003,"end":569.444,"text":"好,謝謝委員,好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149514","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149514","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe394d711c84b909d4f84c29b94b9165f0f8ba9b0039caa7a6d83dd2eb1f7004fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:51:01 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11:03:05","影片長度":"00:12:04","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":724,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:03:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T10:51:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":593,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時51分）主席、各位委員同仁。主席，我想請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：部長好。部長，企業紓困貸款分為振興資金貸款、營運資金貸款還有舊有貸款展延，我贊成這些政策對於許多企業度過疫情期間的一些幫助，營運資金貸款可以暫時解決員工薪資以及廠房租金的燃眉之急，振興資金貸款能夠幫助受影響企業所需要之周轉性支出、資本性支出，然而，營運資金貸款含寬限期僅有3年，振興資金貸款含寬限期僅有5年。以營運資金貸款為例，110年開始貸款的企業必須在今（113）年還款，112年疫情才逐漸解封，得以復甦，等於是110年開始貸款的中小企業，今年就必須要把它的貸款還清，只剩下1年的時間，這樣子的貸款期限是不是對才剛走出疫情的企業衝擊太大？可不可以請部長先回答？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，確實為了要讓企業能夠紓困貸款，這個期限目前是延長到113年12月31號，這個部分政府是基於讓他們可以度過難關，所以透過這樣的方式讓他們可以鬆一口氣來延緩。"],["顏委員寬恒：我要跟部長說，像我手上的這個部分，剛剛從我的研究室過來的時候，就接受了業者的陳情。因為現在還款的期限這麼短，許多業者其實在疫情期間就是咬牙苦撐，能夠損益平衡已經是非常萬幸，現在好不容易開始復甦，但是還款時間這麼短，他們已經是挖東牆補西牆，先去跟別人借貸來還清，要想辦法先跟別人借貸來還清這個貸款。這個是目前正在發生的，這是一個非常嚴肅的議題。我希望能夠有立即的改善方案，有關貸款含寬限期可否延長，作為通案性的問題來做處理，大家都不希望再碰到一個大規模的經濟衰退的狀況，必須要站在百姓跟業者的立場來酌定政策，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員，這個部分也跟委員再做一個補充，原來是到今年的年底，如果它還是有需要展延繳本金的話，可以再延長6個月；如果還是有相關困難的話，我們的公股行庫其實有一個協議的償還機制，就是企業原來的借款，它有續約、展延或分期攤還的需求的話，可以和原來的銀行再做個案的協議。另外，經濟部也有一個協商的機制，可以協助有營運困難的企業，紓解它的金融機構還款的壓力，防止資金周轉不靈影響到的持續營運。我想這個部分政府也非常重視，並提出相關的機制，以上跟委員做報告。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。接著再請問，消費者物價指數 CPI一般定義超過3%就是通貨膨脹，超過5%就是比較嚴重的通貨膨脹，根據112年主計總處公布的消費者CPI指數，較前次綜所稅免稅額調整的累計幅度達5.5%，遠超過調整基準的3%，預計今年度的綜所稅免稅額將調升5,000至9.7萬元，標準扣除額將調升7,000至13.1萬元。我想在這個物價飛漲的年代，減輕人民的賦稅是非常必要要做的，近兩次調整的時間，上上次調整年度是106年，111年度適用之平均CPI指數與106年適用之指數相較，上漲了4.17%；再來是本次的113年度，平均 CPI指數與111年度適用之指數相較，上漲5.5%，近兩次的調整，累積幅度都超過所得稅法所規定的3%。部長請說明，這樣的情況要怎麼樣去做改善？怎麼樣去做制定？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，綜合所得稅裡面的免稅額、標準扣除額還有薪資所得特別扣除額，這些都會隨著物價指數調整，物價指數漲到某個程度時，就必須要做調整。所以我們去年底已經公告113年適用的免稅額標準扣除額以及相關的扣除額調整數據，這些都有做調整，在明年5月報稅時就可以納入；而今年我們還調高了基本生活費，如果相關扣除額沒有達到這個基本生活費的話，都還可以要到比較高的數據來做扣除。對於物價指數的調升，我們必須要去減輕民眾在租稅上的負擔，所以我們按照所得稅法的規定都有在做調整。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。要減輕租稅的負擔，物價的波動是每小時、每天都在進行的，但是免稅額的核算是以年度去計算的。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以不論是烏俄戰爭、以巴衝突，還是接下來4月份的電價上漲，這些都是會帶動CPI指數的重要因素，所以我想請財政部在這部分研擬新的方案，讓免稅額能夠在最即時的狀況每年檢討，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為稅法裡面是有規定要累計達到3%可以做調整，這個部分是所得稅法裡面……"],["顏委員寬恒：那已經都超過了啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，超過了就調，所以已經調了。另外跟委員報告，為了穩定物價，在穩定物價小組裡面從2年前就已經對於大宗物資的進口，像黃小玉的進口物資的營業稅都全免；另外對於貨物稅及關稅也都減免，讓物價能夠穩定下來，讓廠商的成本能夠控制住，讓消費者不受到漲價的侵蝕。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。接下來，有關於關稅、貨物稅的部分，跟每個家庭息息相關的汽車，也就是買車，不管是進口車或者是國產車，車價的組成包括關稅、貨物稅、營業稅，以最近的中國為例，中國大陸整車進口關稅15%，南韓8%，全球汽車龍頭的日本，它的關稅是零，美國次之，僅僅只有2.5%，但是臺灣要17.5%。我們的整車關稅是早期政府為了要扶植本土汽車產業、保護本土產業所設下的高昂進口關稅，但是從2002年加入世貿組織，一直到2010年調降到現在的17.5%。另外，汽車零件關稅的部分，是為了要使國產車能夠提高自製比例而課稅，但是如果國產製造商沒有辦法使用國產零件，而必須要從國外進口再來組裝，一樣會被課到10%至17.5%的不同關稅。想要請教部長，在關稅保護的立場上，目前稅率已經不合時宜，而且對於我國要加入CPTPP這樣的國際組織也會造成阻礙，所以對於關稅的部分，本席認為應該要調整，而且要大幅度的調整。請問部長您的看法？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員非常清楚關稅調整的歷史，就是從加入WTO開始，我們做關稅減讓，到現在一直維持17.51%。關稅的政策，除了我們的稅收之外，還涉及到產業的政策。剛剛委員所提到的幾個國家的關稅非常低，甚至是零，基本上他們都是自己有製造車，是自有品牌的國家，所以這個部分他們的關稅很低。","而我們這裡涉及到產業政策的部分，也有徵詢過經濟部的意見，經濟部是認為，比起鄰近沒有自有品牌車輛製造的國家而言，我們的17.5%關稅已經算是比較低，如果再降低，可能會衝擊到整車還有整車零組件製造產業的發展永續，所以經濟部認為還是要維持原稅率。","委員您知道，如果我們自發性地調降關稅，我們也必須要適用於WTO所有的會員國，都要讓他們調降關稅，是不是會對我們國內有相關的衝擊，這都需要審慎的評估。"],["顏委員寬恒：我在這裡舉例做比較。如果以一台定價100萬的進口車為例，以我國零件製造作為成本計算，再加附所有的稅負之後，進口車的價額會高達154萬到160萬左右；如果國產車的售價在131萬到135萬左右，以原定價100萬的進口車做為比較，比起購買國產車而言，購買一台進口車的稅負會增加24萬左右。","再舉另外一個例子，以現在市場上賣得最夯的TOYOTA RAV4為例，我太太和女兒都開這種車，在美國的報價是2.9萬美金到3.9萬美金，在日本大概是臺幣85萬，也就是390萬日圓，在臺灣大概是100萬到137萬，以國產車納智捷75萬到110萬來做比較，雖然比進口車便宜，但同價位等於可以買到進口車的中階或中高階車型，所以大家多數還是會選擇購買進口車，導致現在臺灣的進口車比例還是超過一半以上。","所以我想跟部長說，希望財政部能夠針對這個問題深切地思考並做出調整，這會是一個德政。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員，我們可以把相關的資料也提供委員做參考。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝顏寬恒委員的質詢。我們現在休息10分鐘，謝謝。","休息（11時2分）","繼續開會（11時13分）"],["主席：好，我們繼續開會。接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。請公股銀行各位董總趕快回座。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","王世堅","王鴻薇","賴惠員","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝委員 這個部分也跟委員再做一個補充就是說原來是到一百今年的年底那如果說他還是有需要展延的話就是要展延繳本金還可以再延長6個月那如果還是有相關的困難的話我們的公股行庫呢其實持續有下面的一個包含協議的償還機制就企業原來的借款還有續月展延或分期貪還的需求的話"},{"start":212.048,"end":233.717,"text":"可以和原來的銀行再做一個協議就是割案的協議那另外呢經濟部他也有一個協商的機制那可以協助有營運困難的企業然後紓解他金融機構還款的壓力那防止資金周轉不靈影響到的持續性我想這個部分政府也非常重視那提出相關的機制這樣子跟委員做報告好那再請問"},{"start":236.351,"end":256.475,"text":"消費者物價指數CPI一般定義超過3%就是通貨膨脹那超過5%就是比較嚴重的通貨膨脹那根據112年主計總署公布的消費者CPI指數較前次中所稅免稅額扣除這個調整的累計幅度達5.5%"},{"start":261.381,"end":268.953,"text":"遠超過調整基準的3%那預計今年度的中手稅免稅額將調升5000至9.7萬元標準扣除額將調升7000至13.1萬元"},{"start":275.512,"end":290.848,"text":"那我想在這個物價飛漲的年代那減輕人民的付稅是非常必要要做的近兩次調整的時間上上次調整年度是106年111年度適用之平均CPI指數與106年適用之指數相較"},{"start":296.027,"end":321.869,"text":"上漲了4.17%再來是本次的113年度那平均CPI指數與111年度適用之指數相較上漲5.5%近兩次的調整累積幅度都超過所得稅法所規定的3%那部長請說明那在這個這樣子的情況要怎麼樣去做改善怎麼樣去做制定"},{"start":322.669,"end":340.566,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們的綜合所得稅裡面的免稅額跟標準扣除額還有薪資所得特別扣除額這些都會隨著物價指數長到某一個時候就必須要做調整所以在我們去年底的時候已經公告了在113年適用的免稅額標準扣除額以及相關的扣除額一個調整數據都有做調整"},{"start":345.45,"end":371.048,"text":"那個會在明年的5月報稅的時候就可以納入那今年呢我們還調高了基本生活費這個基本生活費如果調高的話你的相關扣除額沒有達到這個基本扣除額的基本生活費的話都還可以要到比較高的數據來做扣除所以這個部分對於物價指數的一個調升我們必須要去減輕民眾在出稅上的一個負擔所以我們按照所得稅法的規定都有在做調整"},{"start":371.51,"end":371.69,"text":"議員提供財政委員會議"},{"start":396.514,"end":401.697,"text":"請財政部在這部分研擬新的方案讓免稅額能夠在最即時的狀況即時的狀況來每年檢討"},{"start":406.607,"end":414.07,"text":"我因為稅法裡面是有規定要累計達到3%的時候可以做調整這個部分是稅法裡面對超過了就調所以已經調了所以已經調那另外跟委員報告為了穩定物價那這個部分在穩定物價小組裡面我們從兩年前就已經對於這個大宗物資的進口像黃豆小玉小黃小玉的進口營業進口的"},{"start":431.637,"end":431.937,"text":"稅務報告．顏寬恒稅務報告"},{"start":459.813,"end":485.219,"text":"企車競買買車啦不管是進口車或者是國產車那我們車價的組成包括關稅、貨物稅、營業稅那以最近的中國中國大陸整車進口關稅15%南韓8%那全球汽車龍頭的日本他關稅零那以次之美國也僅僅只有2.5%但是台灣要17.5%"},{"start":489.229,"end":504.794,"text":"那我們的整車關稅是早期政府為了要扶植本土汽車產業要保護本土產業所設下的一個高昂進口關稅但是從2002年加入世貿組織然後一直到2010年調降到現在17.5%17.5%那另外以汽車零件關稅的部分"},{"start":517.216,"end":528.945,"text":"要使國產車能夠提高國產車的自治比例而課稅但是如果國產車國產製造商沒有辦法使用國產零件必須要從國外進口然後再來組裝一樣會被課到10%至17.5%的不同的關稅"},{"start":533.376,"end":550.123,"text":"那想要請教部長在關稅保護的立場上這個稅率已經不合時宜而且對我國要加入CPTPP這樣的國際組織也會造成阻礙所以對於這個關稅的部分本席認為應該要調整而且要大幅度的調整部長你的看法"},{"start":551.838,"end":575.185,"text":"委員非常清楚這個關稅的一個調整的一個歷史就是從加入WTO我們做關稅減讓到現在17.5%一直維持那當然關稅的這個政策除了我們的稅收之外還涉及到產業的政策剛剛委員所提到的幾個國家的關稅非常低甚至是0那基本上他們都是自己是製造車的自由品牌的國家"},{"start":575.805,"end":579.227,"text":"所以這個部分他們的關稅很低那我們的涉及到產業政策的部分我們也去徵詢過經濟部的意見那經濟部是認為說以我們這個17.5來看的話比鄰近國家他沒有自由品牌車輛的製造的國家來已經來的算的比較低的那如果我們再降低的話可能會衝擊到"},{"start":596.317,"end":609.887,"text":"我們整車還有整車零組件的一個製造產業的一個發展永續所以認為是要維持那當然委員您知道就是說如果我們自發性的把它調降那對所以我們必須要適用所有WTO會員國都要讓他們關稅調降那這樣的話是不是對我們國內有相關的衝擊這都要審慎的評估"},{"start":617.213,"end":631.357,"text":"我這邊做一個比較那以如果以一台100萬的定價為100萬的進口車那以我國零件製造作為成本計算在加付所有的稅負之後進口車會高達154到160萬那如果說國產車的售價會在131到135萬所以"},{"start":640.086,"end":655.996,"text":"以原定價同樣100萬的來做一個比較買一台進口車需要比國產車的稅務增加24萬左右但是又以另外一個來做一個比較以現在市場上賣的最夯的那個TOYOTA的RAV4來比較"},{"start":657.554,"end":684.713,"text":"我太太跟女兒都開這種車啦那在美國的報價是2.9萬美金到3.9萬那在日本的話是大概85萬台幣390萬日元那在台灣的話大概是100萬到137萬那以國產車那字節75萬到110萬來做一個比較雖然比進口車便宜但是它等於是可以買到進口車的中階或中高階的車型"},{"start":686.974,"end":705.641,"text":"所以大家就是會多數會選擇購買進口車所以現在台灣的進口車比例還是超過一半以上所以我想再請部長說要跟部長希望說財政部能夠在這個問題來做一個深切的思考來做一個調整這會是一個得證好不好"},{"start":707.688,"end":714.511,"text":"是,謝謝委員,我們可以把相關的資料提供委員做一個參考,是,謝謝好,謝謝顏寬恒委員的質詢,那我們現在休息10分鐘,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149513","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149513","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbef84ee806b29eac51f84c29b94b9165f0f8ba9b0039caa7a6efa4b89b7a34049c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:39:49 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"end":53.515,"text":"一千兩百四十六億那我的資料是一千兩百六十八億那總反正因為總資就是一千兩百多億對不對那這八家公股銀行行庫代給融資公司我們知道他們做了什麼嗎"},{"start":55.014,"end":71.642,"text":"我們可以看到了就是說這個貸款的餘額我們把它統計了出來那請問國庫署對於融資的一個主任公司拿了這些一千多億的錢做了什麼有沒有辦法還款你是不是有掌握呢"},{"start":73.7,"end":92.81,"text":"根委員報告因為對於銀行在放貸給融資公司的時候他們都會做好落實他們的貸貸後管理所以除了差和借款人貸款資金的實力用途以外也會防止銀行那個資金流入所以就是說基本上他們都是有符合到我們金融業的ESG的一個標準嗎?"},{"start":93.67,"end":107.198,"text":"是啊 這個他們會去檢視沒有錯嘛 對不對所以就是說我們基本上就是說所有就是ESG的一個標準我們銀行的授信以前我們必須要嚴格的去審查"},{"start":108.271,"end":134.366,"text":"好,部長,嚴格的去審查在這裡頭我們從這個低金控公告的ESG裡頭有特別特別的強調就是說在授信前的一個那個審查的一個機制的一個流程圖裡頭特別強調公司內控的一個負面的一個議題還有是不是乘坐高爭議性的一個產業我們都要納入風險的評估"},{"start":136.128,"end":138.862,"text":"是的!是的!那個第一金控董事長 對不對?"},{"start":141.102,"end":168.344,"text":"這個是你們自己做的?是,回答委員是的沒有問題?是好那還是一樣再請教部長跟署長目前就是八大公股銀行行庫裡頭是不是都採用相同或是相近標準的做受信錢的一個審查?所有公股行庫在受信錢都有一定的審查而且它必須符合金管會以及銀行公會所有的受信審查原則都要符合的"},{"start":168.945,"end":181.601,"text":"市部長我跟你講你只要打開你的手機用一個關鍵字只要一個貸款的貸那你全部跳出來的是什麼一台摩托車可以"},{"start":183.12,"end":211.595,"text":"借30萬輕輕鬆鬆不用財力證明然後一台超過15年的汽車可以借到80萬你試著操作看看就是業者在換款的額度的一個輕鬆給這些學生然後給這些沒有資產能力比較下階層的這些人那是不是就是禁止乘坐高正義性這個是不是高正義性的產業"},{"start":213.767,"end":238.629,"text":"委員是基於保護年輕人他有時候就因為覺得便利就去貸款結果讓自己身上背了一堆債然後造成自己的信用整個就不好了對他人生未來是有影響那這個部分我們在貸出去的時候是給企業戶那至於這個企業戶您可能關心的是企業戶貸到以後錢拿去做什麼用八大公股銀行他們借出去的錢你們做了什麼"},{"start":239.77,"end":260.265,"text":"你們說你們都有監控結果租賃公司是從銀行搬了錢然後再做地下錢莊的工作那我們為什麼不管呢?為什麼不管?我想這個部分讓我們各個銀行在貸款出去以後對的資金用途都會有做貸後管理"},{"start":262.365,"end":280.034,"text":"事實上顯現出來在下一頁部長我再讓你看目前的在這個整個租賃業裡頭的龍頭的話就是我們中租中租的一個財報來看的話我們中租2023年12月底在我們台灣的債權研製力高達2.3"},{"start":281.815,"end":289.967,"text":"那這樣換算的話他總金額是90億相較之下的銀行去年12月底的預放率他僅0.1%這個超過23%你怎麼解釋呢?"},{"start":295.643,"end":323.838,"text":"跟委員報告那金管會我們跟金管會了解他也會將來會約他也會約已經約談了中租、合潤跟裕隆三家租賃業者那麼我們會進一步的會去了解銀行跟這些租賃業者的風險管理那這些公管銀行那個這些公股銀行是歸你管的然後這些人這些銀行提供了錢給租賃公司然後去做這麼多事情那"},{"start":324.838,"end":345.957,"text":"你們怎麼講?你們把他推給...不是,我想跟委員報告一下,那委員提出這個問題也是非常重要那我們接下來會請我們公股、航空對這些租賃公司的一個融資貸款去全盤了解它的一個資金用途部長,你所有的回答其實基本上都是非常空的土地銀行在下一頁"},{"start":347.674,"end":371.454,"text":"土地銀行在2024年統籌就是你們租給那個中租的一個年代案有沒有將中租抵合放高利貸及高研製的一個研製力納入風險的評估呢我想這個個案是不是可以由土地銀行來做說明的個案我剛就有請土地銀行要出列了"},{"start":377.714,"end":402.853,"text":"所以土地銀行在去年的11頁你統籌主辦了中租抵合三年期那就是貸給他71億那你們講了說支持歷電產業可是你這裡頭連帶的還有兆豐還有和庫還有華蘭對不對是那你有沒有去追蹤呢報告委員這些錢是真的放在歷電產業還是"},{"start":405.265,"end":418.829,"text":"送到中國大陸去了報告委員我們當初籌組這筆聯貸案它的主要資金用途去它是去建立這個太陽能的電廠所以是完全符合綠色綠電的一個產業你有追嗎當然是這是貸貨管理最重要的一部分"},{"start":423.53,"end":447.297,"text":"是,好,那這樣子我跟你講甚至我在土銀我下一次再請教你所有你借出去的錢你借給租賃公司的錢它是不是有到中國去這個也是要再跟你特別再做一個我們再做一個探討所以在這裡我要跟所有在現場的我們所有的這個相關在金融的一個機構裡頭"},{"start":449.281,"end":466.196,"text":"一SG這個S就是社會責任我們是不是有幫世紀人小明就是在擋呢他們背著一個高利貸一台摩托車可以借到30萬一個學生他在他需要買手機他需要買"},{"start":467.705,"end":495.776,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":496.216,"end":521.264,"text":"這個租賃公司越來越大尾他也可以是當鋪也可以是銀行那從銀行搬錢了那你們在這個錢授權給他的時候你們也非常的慷慨那他輕鬆的在公股銀行搬到錢了然後就做這些高利貸的工作那怎麼辦啊無法可管"},{"start":524.704,"end":554.122,"text":"部長回答我是謝謝委員的提示我想這個部分代後的管理非常重要也就是資金的流向我們銀行有時候會專款專用對成立一個專戶做一定的資金用途這是您剛剛提到的就是說租賃公司有沒有把這個錢拿去以後去放高利貸讓許多年輕人不小心就是帶了錢然後造成他一輩子的信用上的一些影響我想我們這個部分會請公股航空特別注意然後對代後管理資金流向都要有所進一步的理解"},{"start":554.582,"end":554.682,"text":"這是絕對不行的"},{"start":584.634,"end":614.057,"text":"是我想就是說最後一頁這個部長我想想這樣子建議就是說你要檢討公股行庫ESG的一個認定標準那將主任業對民眾的一個換款的利率還有就是換款的標準還有顏值利等納入授信的標準以外你千萬千萬不能讓公股銀行成為合法高利貸的一個幫兇顯然你們現在就是幫兇了而你們不自覺你們還一直"},{"start":614.857,"end":633.956,"text":"一而再再而三的一直在協助他們公股行庫若是發現以放貸的租賃業從事對學生的放高利貸的一個行為的時候你們是不是可以依契約收回貸款的款項有沒有辦法還有日漸升溫的中國經濟泡沫的一個問題"},{"start":635.157,"end":653.245,"text":"公股行戶除了減少在中國的曝險機制以外是不是應該嚴格的追蹤就是我們所有換款的對象是不是有轉投資到中國希望一個業內給我這樣子的一個素面報告謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝賴惠惠委員的質詢待我們顏寬文委員質詢之後呢我們休息10分鐘接著我們請顏寬文委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"149512","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149512","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe6a5d2d09dc70693ff84c29b94b9165f0f8ba9b0039caa7a649b407c8523db5195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:27:27 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10:39:41","影片長度":"00:12:14","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":734,"end_time":"2024-03-07T10:39:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T10:27:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":513,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時27分）謝謝主席。我想先請我們部長。"],["主席：先請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，這幾天在立法院裡面，除了金廈海域之間的爭議之外，還有桃機的糾紛之外，另外就是現在經濟委員會就有關於電價的部分，現在大家最關心的是電價是不是會帶來一個物價上漲的壓力，剛才李彥秀委員也特別提到，昨天國發會來報告時特別提到，當時我們為了要穩定物價，所以我們從110年的年底開始，針對好多項關鍵原物料的進口，不管是關稅也好，貨物稅也好，都有做減免，我看我們關務署署長已經站在旁邊了，而這個時間只有到今年的3月31號，就這個月底而已。","大家都知道，以今年來說，我們消費物價上漲超過2%，幾乎已成定局，因為電價要調超過10%，對於物價推升、推波助瀾的威力是非常大的。所以，我想請問一下，我們關鍵原物料的進口減稅會不會繼續的延續？因為只有到這個月月底而已，是不是應該要繼續延續？請回答。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，機動降稅的部分是到這個月底，然後行政院有一個穩定物價小組，會就物價的情況來做討論，如果要繼續延長的話，財政部就配合辦理。"],["王委員鴻薇：會不會延長？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個要等到行政院的穩定物價小組討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，因為我今天在這邊質詢，所以我作具體的建議和要求，我認為要繼續延長，而且你們時間應該要早一點講，因為是到這個月月底，老實說，我覺得現在整個行政院，因為是看守內閣、因為很多人在搶位子，所以不曉得現在在幹什麼！對於物價問題，你看這個時間是到3月底，但到現在都還沒有討論，待會我還會去衛環委員會，衛福部真的是非常混蛋，你知道嗎？在現在物價壓力這麼大的狀況之下，還要取消掛號費的上限，現在是怎麼樣，要逼死大家是不是？因為那個不關你財政部的事情，我在這邊要求，關鍵原物料進口減稅應該要延續，這段時間正好是關鍵的時候，如果配合電價的上漲、配合掛號費的上漲，然後整個物價蠢蠢欲動，一旦勾起大家競相上漲，那個壓力是非常非常大的。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員這個意見我們一定會轉達。"],["王委員鴻薇：署長，你可以先回去。","接著，我要找國庫署署長。部長，你上次有來拜訪我，我告訴你我為什麼要進財委會，就是我在去年補選擔任立法委員之後，我接到很多來自於公股事業的投訴，在我們的公股金控公司中我接到最多的投訴就是合庫金控旗下的相關機構，我在最早曾經踢爆合庫AMC案，我講過，一個董事長把他的侄子、事業夥伴女兒、樁腳、小三全部都弄進去，當然最後全部都走人，我想部長非常清楚。接下來我又踢爆合庫投信違反公司治理，董事長林柏裕、行銷長涉嫌違法接受國外基金公司的招待到東京，根本不符合相關的規定。而且相關的人士事實上是不停的投訴，從合庫的總公司到金管會沒人聞問，每一次都說沒問題，每一次都說沒問題。前兩天金管會主委在這邊，他非常清楚地答復我，他們認為有問題，因為他們去做專案金檢，對於合庫投信他們認為確實有違規的問題。我知道今天金控董事長也在這邊，甚至合庫金控的稽覈也有問題。同樣一批人查了又查，查了又查，都說沒有問題。廢話！如果你要包庇的話，你查100次都是沒有問題。但是一直到金管會去金檢之後發現有問題，所以不但合庫投信要提出報告，連合庫金控的金檢，董事長、總經理，你們也可以在那邊聽好，怎麼會一個合庫金控會這樣子的爛法呢？這個還是我提出來的，沒有辦法提出來的還不曉得有多少。","以下是我的重點，去年我們在審預算的時候，我就要求我們的金控，過去公股銀行大家都視為金飯碗，我知道現場很多都是過去考進去的，考進去就是金飯碗，這個考試其實也很激烈，可是現在公股金控下面，銀行的部分做公開招考，比較公開跟透明，但是剩下來其他的子公司因為是後來才開始衍生的，子公司就開始隨便了，沒有做任何的公開招考，裡面甚至還被抓出來，沒有筆試，連考試都沒有經過就直接任用了。甚至我還聽說，兩家公司，過去我們有易子而食，易子而教，現在還有什麼呢？易子而用，我讓大家知道，有人在那邊偷笑，很清楚啦！比如說，部長，你有小孩，我有小孩，我用我的小孩進來不好看，所以你的小孩給我用，我的小孩給你用，他用這種方式，很丟臉、很難看，下面基層怨聲載道。今天這麼多的董事長、總經理在場，我如果要問的話讓你們全部在後面排排站，所以我要從制度上要求我們財政部做制度上的改變，我上次在主決議的時候就說，既然金控的銀行要做公開招考，請問你其他子公司為什麼不要？所以才會有這種任用私人，甚至一窩子都是你同一個派系，一個董事長的小三都可以進來，小三護士可以進來當副理，像樣嗎？怎麼會淪落至此？","所以我在這邊具體的要求，我現在在財委會這一年就是要推動這個事情，各位董事長、總經理聽好了，金控下面銀行公開招考，以昭公信，其他的子公司也應該公開招考，以昭公信。我告訴你，裡面的人、銀行的人看不起其他子公司的人啦！因為人家說我是憑實力進來的，你是憑什麼？搞不好有的人可能是憑實力，很多人是憑實力，但有一些是憑關係進來的。你為什麼要搞成這樣呢？我們要建立一套制度，這個制度不要再發生這樣子的醜聞，太難看了，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，對委員說的這個部分我很認同，我想委員也知道，上次有關合庫的AMC還有投信的事，財政部的立場就是誠實面對、嚴正的處理，第一個，相關的缺失我們並不隱瞞，全部查出來，並要求改善，除了這個部分之外，而且不是只有這個公司，其他全部的公股行庫都要做制度性的改善。委員特別提到有關用人的部分，我也跟委員特別說明，我們要求所有的金控或者是銀行下面不管子公司也好，都要用公開、公正、透明的方式來選用，用徵選的方式，然後對於各職級的經歷、學歷都要把標準訂出來，這個部分都有要求，而且做全面性制度的要求。"],["王委員鴻薇：都用公開招考之後……"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分委員提的都已經在做了。"],["王委員鴻薇：我保證你不用溯及既往，我這個人不會追殺到底，因為現在也有非常戰戰兢兢的、守本分的，未來用公開招考之後，第一個，你的人員的素質提高，第二個，防堵這些弊端，何樂不為，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：對不起主席，我占用1分鐘的時間，請臺灣菸酒公司董事長、總經理。"],["主席：有請丁董事長跟林總經理。"],["王委員鴻薇：董事長、總經理，我很快速地，你們也很清楚知道我要問什麼，就是建國啤酒廠改建的部分，因為在行政院鄭文燦副院長的主導下，你們把原來已經經過從內政部到臺北市都審會全部通過的都更案撤回，重新來做開發，把一塊地割給了北科大，對不對？這個引起地方周圍居民強烈反彈，他們今天下午還在繼續做說明會，包含文資團體、包含員工工會，強力反彈。我也有跟教育部長說北科大不能做惡鄰居啊！不好看。這件事情我知道臺酒是聽命行事，但是我要讓董事長、總經理知道，這個案子在地方上極為強烈反彈，而且反而會拖延，甚至影響你們的改建，所以我認為你們還是要好好地處理，不是去跟下面溝通，是去跟上面溝通。你說你們這樣的搞法，我們真的很難做下去，好不好？因為時間關係，這個案子我會一直追蹤，但是我覺得要讓董事長、總經理知道這個事情的嚴重性。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，加強溝通。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢。","接著我們請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","王世堅","王鴻薇","賴惠員","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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考進去就金飯碗那其實這個考試呢其實也很激烈"},{"start":384.639,"end":412.59,"text":"可是呢我們現在公股機構下面銀行的部分做公開招考比較公開跟透明但是剩下來其他的子公司因為後來才開始衍生的嘛子公司就開始隨便了沒有做任何的公開招考裡面我甚至還被抓出來連筆試沒有筆試啦連考試都沒有經過然後就直接任用了甚至我還聽說"},{"start":414.612,"end":438.697,"text":"兩家公司過去我們有一子而食一子而交現在還有什麼呢一子而用我讓大家知道有人在那邊偷笑很清楚啦比如說部長你有小孩我有小孩我用我的小孩進來不好看所以你小孩給我用我的小孩給你用還用這種方式"},{"start":439.943,"end":466.488,"text":"很丟臉很難看下面精神怨聲載道今天這麼多的董事長、總經理我如果要問話讓他們全部在後面排排站所以我要從制度上要求我們財政部做制度上的改變所以我上次在組結議的時候就說既然金控你的銀行要做公開招考請問你其他子公司為什麼不要"},{"start":467.915,"end":494.875,"text":"其他子公司為什麼不要?所以才會有這種任用私人甚至呢一窩子都是你同一個派系一個董事長小三都可以進來耶小三護士來可以進來當副理像樣嗎?怎麼會淪落至此?所以我在這邊具體的要求我現在財委會這一年我就是要推動這個事情金控下面各位董事長、總經理聽好了"},{"start":496.946,"end":512.174,"text":"金控下面銀行公開招考以招公信其他的子公司也應該公開招考以招公信我告訴你裡面的人銀行的人看不起其他子公司的人"},{"start":513.444,"end":533.162,"text":"因為人家說我是憑實力進來的啊啊你是憑什麼搞不好是有的人可能是憑實力啊很多人是憑實力啊但有一些是憑關心進來的你為什麼搞成這樣呢我們要讓建立一套制度這個制度不要再發生這樣子的醜聞太難看了"},{"start":535.712,"end":557.325,"text":"對委員的部分我很認同我想委員也知道上次有關核庫的AMC還有投信的事財政部立場就是誠實面對嚴正的處理第一個我們把相關的缺失我們並不隱瞞全部查出來而且要求改善那除了這個部分之外而且不是只有這個公司而且其他的全部的公股行庫都要有"},{"start":557.625,"end":584.791,"text":"要有做制度性的改善那委員特別提到有關用人的部分我跟委員特別說明我們要求各所有的金控或者是銀行下面不管子公司也好他都要用公開公正透明的方式來選用然後用甄選然後你對於各職級的他要用的經歷學歷都要把標準定出來這個部分都有要求而且做全面性的制度的一個要求"},{"start":585.131,"end":605.464,"text":"主要講這個部分委員都已經在做了我保證你不用訴及既往我這個人不會追殺到底啦因為現在也有那個非常那個什麼戰戰兢兢的啊本分的你未來你用公開招考的部分第一個你的人員的數值提高第二個你防篤這些弊端和樂不為"},{"start":606.084,"end":608.526,"text":"有請丁董事長跟林總經理"},{"start":635.284,"end":654.277,"text":"董事長、總經理 我用快速的你們也很清楚知道我要問什麼就是你們建國啤酒廠改建的部分因為在行政院副院長鄭文燦副院長的主導下你們把原來已經經過從內政部到台北市都審會全部通過的這個"},{"start":656.579,"end":656.899,"text":"主席王鴻薇"},{"start":675.012,"end":701.871,"text":"包括文資團體包括員工工會強力反彈我只有跟教育部長說北科大不能做惡靈居不好看但這件事情我知道台九是聽命行事但是我要讓董事長、總經理知道這個案子在地方上極為強烈反彈而且反而會拖延甚至影響你們的改建所以我認為你們還是要好好的處理"},{"start":704.853,"end":705.013,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"149511","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149511","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbeafa896d1ddfb02f8f84c29b94b9165f0f8ba9b0039caa7a62b572682c7da76a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"10:16:10 - 10:27:12","影片長度":"00:11:02","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":662,"end_time":"2024-03-07T10:27:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T10:16:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":489,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（10時16分）謝謝主席，我請財政部。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：莊部長，我今天要問你的問題，其實那天你來我研究室禮貌性拜訪時，我有跟你還有幾位署長都有提到過，我認為這個上位政策必須先談清楚。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["王委員世堅：因為你是執行單位，我當然必須問你。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["王委員世堅：關於裕隆汽車，這2年來他們大量進口中國籍零件拼裝而成 MG 車輛，這個 MG 的品牌大家都曉得，它本來是歐洲英國的車輛，10幾年前早就被中共買去了，買去了之後……我先談我們裕隆，裕隆這70年來受到我們政府的保護，我們一直期待裕隆能夠當作國家產業、工業的龍頭，帶領我們工業升級，至少能夠做出好的引擎、好的車輛能帶領我們，除供應國人以外還能夠外銷，但是讓我們覺得很難過的是，這70年來裕隆的表現，我相信多數民眾都很清楚，在政府重重的保護之下，我們希望他能夠帶領我們外銷，結果他完全外銷不出去任何一部車。","7.8年前開始說：要不然去賣給中國好了！可能當時中國那邊的市場要求沒那麼高，裕隆也想方設法的去了。部長，我們希望裕隆帶領我們反攻大陸，結果反攻不成，他現在反而幫中共來木馬屠城，天啊！他竟然把中國零件在臺灣拼裝組合出來，假借是國產車的名義，大肆地幫中共的汽車來傾銷，這也是拜財政部之賜，可能背後有什麼政策要求你們，這我等一下請你說明一下。","你們保護裕隆，只對其他的進口車加徵關稅、貨物稅，幾10年來都這樣嘛！藉由加徵其他國家進口車的關稅、貨物稅來保護裕隆，結果保護裕隆這個阿斗70年，我現在就要問你們，我們還要保護這個阿斗保護多久啦？不是很奇怪嗎？更可怕的是什麼？更可怕的是，現在不只是MG這個品牌，我覺得可能中共藉由裕隆牛刀小試試水溫，投石問路，看看這樣子的銷售狀況怎麼樣，能不能矇混過我們的國家、我們臺灣的政府跟我們臺灣的消費者，矇混過了之後，我相信他們食髓知味，後續還有更可怕的事情要發生，就是電動車！現在電動車當道，未來也是個趨勢，這是好的，中國別的不敢說，它的電動車現在在世界的產量上是獨佔鰲頭，光是比亞迪，就佔盡市場的優勢跟便宜，所以我們很畏懼，如果藉由裕隆引進MG中共車輛這個模式，未來大量引進中國的電動車，就是這樣啊！中國電動車的零件進口，然後在臺灣組裝，這個就是國產車，而我們要保護我們的國產車，所以這樣一保護、二保護，就保護到了中共他們製造的車輛，幫中共賺錢就對了！幫中共賺錢，賺這個錢給我們的敵人中共去買更多的飛彈來對準臺灣、來威脅臺灣嗎？這不是很荒唐、很奇怪的事情嗎？","所以部長你先談一下，到底面對我們長期以來保護的裕隆，它現在大量引進中國車的零件在我們臺灣組裝，假借它是國產車的名義來躲避關稅和貨物稅，得到這樣的保護，佔盡了這樣的便宜，則這個模式你認為對或是不對？再來，我們如果讓它繼續引進中國的電動車，那要怎麼辦？你的看法呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，確實，對於關稅的部分，主要還是有涉及到產業政策，就是剛剛委員一直提的，就是為避免我們國內產業受到衝擊，所以有了這個。至於現在我們進口車的關稅，因為我們是WTO的會員，我們在加入WTO的時候，我們有做一個關稅減讓的承諾，所以我們從民國91年入會時稅率調為29%，到10年後逐年調降到17.5%，所以這個稅率一直維持到現在。至於您剛剛提到汽車的關稅是不是要討論，這個部分我們也請教了產業的主管機關經濟部，經濟部的意見是認為進口小汽車的關稅稅率，我們是17.5%，已經比鄰近沒有自有品牌車輛製造的一些國家都來得比較低了，而且對我們的整車零組件的製造產業的程序、發展是有一些影響，所以他們認為目前的關稅稅率要維持，我想這個部分是產業主管機關的意見。"],["王委員世堅：關稅的部分，他們是要藉由要保護裕隆，而這個不是另類保護裕隆的方式嗎？如果裕隆自己生產製造，我們沒話講喔！不是嘛！它完全大量引進中國汽車的零件在臺灣組裝，所以，部長，我再正式問你一下，我們所謂國產車的定義是什麼？現在的定義很鬆散，零件哪邊來的沒關係、不管，在臺灣組裝的就叫做國產車，這個定義太鬆散不打緊，這個圖利了裕隆，不是這樣嗎？現在圖利了裕隆，它大量引進中國製的車子，等於也圖利了中共。","還有，未來的電動車，電動車非比油車，還有圖資的問題，包括車輛鏡頭收集的圖資，部長，我們國家為什麼禁止向中共採購無人機，就是為了國家安全，不是嗎？同樣的，如果裕隆以MG這個品牌的模式，再大量引進中國電動車，比方說比亞迪等等好幾個品牌，他們的電動車進來後，會暴露了我們國家的圖資，這涉及國家安全問題，而且還傷腦筋的是，現在比亞迪最大的死敵是誰？當然就是我們這些自由世界製造的電動車，不是嗎？結果我們對進口自由世界國家、對我們這些友邦的車，用高關稅、高貨物稅來把它擋住，把品質好的友邦的車擋住，然後我們對於裕隆的保護，讓它來引進我們的敵人、中共他們的車輛，這不是荒唐嗎？這是另類的、經濟的國安危機。","所以我在這邊預言，部長，如果你沒有守住這條底線，你如果不跟經濟部、行政院把這件事情談清楚的話，我認為這會是21世紀科技版的木馬屠城記，就要在我們臺灣發生了、上演了，這還了得！"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，第一個，零組件進口也是要課徵關稅，至於剛剛委員另外所提大陸汽車的電動車，經濟部貿易局並沒有開放進口，您剛剛的意見，我們會轉給經濟部，然後一起來研議、來關注這個事情。"],["王委員世堅：主席，我最後再強調一點，假使我剛剛說的那個情況真的發生的話，中國電動車大肆進舉臺灣的話，不但對我們造成國家危機，而且如果還讓它拿綠能補助，那我們大家不就一頭撞死，不是嗎？它的電動車你還要綠能補助啊！天啊！主席，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：部長，你回去後好好去商量、商量，能夠給我一個具體的答復。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["王委員世堅：這個問題我還會去找經濟部談個清楚。謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員的質詢。","接著我們請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","王世堅","王鴻薇","賴惠員","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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那個主席我最後強調一點假使我剛剛說的那個情況真的發生的話中國電動車大肆進取來台灣的話那"},{"start":627.962,"end":655.544,"text":"對我們造成國家危機而且如果還讓他拿綠能補助那我們大家不就一頭撞死不是嗎他電動車你要綠能補助啊天啊那個主席謝謝那部長你們幫我商量商量那能夠給我一個具體的答覆這個問題我還會去找經濟部談個清楚啦謝謝委員謝謝王世堅委員的質詢接著我們請王宏威委員質詢"},{"start":660.998,"end":662.056,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"149510","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149510","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe6f93f7b23a5e01a1f84c29b94b9165f0f8ba9b0039caa7a6686bf1ce6383841d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:04:39 - 10:15:54","影片長度":"00:11:15","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":675,"end_time":"2024-03-07T10:15:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T10:04:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":402,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時4分）謝謝。我是不是可以請莊部長？"],["主席（郭委員國文）：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：部長早安。昨天我關注到總質詢的時候陳建仁陳院長有回應說，我們今年超徵的稅收是3,617億元，決定要做一些台電和勞保、健保的優先規劃、要撥補。對於這樣的規劃和政策方向，部長到底清不清楚？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告……"],["李委員彥秀：院裡面到底有沒有討論過？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關我們的稅收超過預算數的部分，就我們財政部來說，第一個就是減少舉債，第二個就是增加還債，其他就累計到歲計賸餘，至於到歲計賸餘以後，在國庫裡面有多少錢去怎麼配置的話，是由……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我時間不多，你直接回應我……"],["莊部長翠雲：是主計總處參與。"],["李委員彥秀：因為昨天院長在院會已經講了，他宣布要撥補台電、勞健保，這個政策方向是不是真的？院裡面到底有沒有開過會？你到底知不知道？"],["莊部長翠雲：這裡面是主計總處在參與討論。"],["李委員彥秀：你完全不知道？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們是籌編歲入的部分。"],["李委員彥秀：你完全不知道方向？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分……"],["李委員彥秀：今天已經是3月7日，去年我們普發現金的時候是1月12日就已經決定超徵的稅收要怎麼發，今天已經是3月份了，你到現在還不知道哦？"],["莊部長翠雲：去年有關疫後強化靭性的條例是以特別條例和特別預算……"],["李委員彥秀：還是說選舉年的時候決定要普發現金，1月份就可以知道超徵的稅收要怎麼處理，但是今年因為不是選舉年，到現在超徵稅收明年到底要怎麼處理，是編入歲計賸餘再做後續的處理，還是有其他的做法，你完全沒有方向嗎？行政院長已經講了啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，我還是要跟委員報告，歲出的部分是主計總處的職掌。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我為什麼會這樣子問？所以你完全不知道到底要撥補多少，你完全沒有方向，也不知道？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分行政院會做討論。"],["李委員彥秀：到底撥補台電多少錢，沒有討論過，你連聽都沒聽過？"],["莊部長翠雲：行政院會再討論。"],["李委員彥秀：你都沒有參與相關的會議？"],["莊部長翠雲：我沒有參加。"],["李委員彥秀：部裡面也沒有任何一個人參加？"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊！"],["李委員彥秀：難道陳建仁院長在答詢台上講出來的話都沒有找過主計總處、財政部開過會嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，那是主計總處的職掌，至於主計總處有沒有參加，那要主計總處才知道。"],["李委員彥秀：好，部長，也就是說你完全不知道。那我知道啦，就是選舉年決定普發現金的時候才會找你們，而且儘速在1月份就決定了。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，普發現金那是整個強化社會韌性跟經濟靭性，當時有個特別條例以及特別預算的編列……"],["李委員彥秀：對！"],["莊部長翠雲：那今年113年的預算已經都籌編完畢了……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，整體上來說，你們説這兩三年是過去20年來經濟成果最好的時刻，但人民可能不這麼想，所以今年決定要怎麼做，大家都在看。我為什麼這麼說？因為下個月開始，經濟部就要開始開電價審議委員會，剛剛郭委員也有討論到我們的CPI指數，其實我們的物價指數已經高到1.85了，你知道民眾可以忍受的最高極限是多少嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想對民眾來說，物價的穩定是非常重要的。"],["李委員彥秀：人民的最高忍受度你都不知道哦？"],["莊部長翠雲：忍受度每個人不一樣。"],["李委員彥秀：蛤？你是財政部部長耶！這個數據現在是1.85，人民對CPI的忍受極限是2.0，你知道電價如果調整10%的話，對於整體CPI的影響大概多大嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然會有影響，因為電價調整尤其對於所謂的外食族有很大的影響。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，你身為財政部長，對於這些重要的統計數據和相關的預測數據都不清楚，包括電價到底要調10%、15%、20%，對人民稅收還有包括剛剛討論的賦稅、關稅今年要不要持續有優惠的減免等等，這些都是環環相扣的議題，但你現在卻回答我說你不知道，我覺得這件事情讓我不可置信，你知道嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明……"],["李委員彥秀：我時間不多。我還是要問你，3月底要討論的電價議題，到底你認為撥補多少是一個合理的數字？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明，有關電價的調整，它是由審議委員會在審議，他們會根據相關的數據來做討論。"],["李委員彥秀：但是撥補多少都會影響CPI指數，你同意我講這句話嗎？撥補多少第一會影響到電價審議委員會到底要調整多少，對不對？後續也會影響到CPI指數。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["李委員彥秀：我這個邏輯你同意嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：同意，環環相扣。"],["李委員彥秀：你可以不瞭解相關的經濟預測指數，但這個是環環相扣的數據影響。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯啊！"],["李委員彥秀：所以部長，你要搞清楚，不是520之前大家都等著結束，什麼都不管、放著都不管耶！部長，我覺得今天你在這邊跟我講這個是主計處的事、你不知道，第一個，我覺得你可能沒有說實話；第二個，大家都等著520下班，什麼都放著不知道，首先我覺得決定撥補台電多少會影響到電價審議委員會決定調整多少，後面接著就會影響CPI的指數，所以照你今天回答我的方式，我非常不滿意，因為我認為大家都不夠用心，還是大家混著、等著520下班？"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得委員這樣說不公平，每一位在職的都是用心、盡心盡力的在工作，至於有一些非屬財政部的職掌……"],["莊部長翠雲：這個數據跟後續有關係，我覺得你應該更主動的去瞭解，就你今天回應我的，我個人是不滿意，但是我覺得部長要更用心去瞭解，到底要撥補多少？到底健保要撥補多少，勞保要撥補多少，台電要撥補多少？因為這個後續對於CPI的預測影響，台電要漲多少，對於後面CPI其實也是有影響的，所以我覺得這些經濟數據，無論主計處或是你們這邊其實都要精準的掌握才對，這才會拿到人民的感受度到底多少，你們應該長記在心裡。","部長，我今天有第二個問題要問，也非常重要。部長，你住在新北市對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["李委員彥秀：好，你有沒有朋友或你自己瞭不瞭解我們現在的包租代管？"],["莊部長翠雲：包租代管目前……"],["李委員彥秀：社會正義裡面含居住正義，居住正義裡面的包租代管是現在社宅很重要的一環，因為我們不可能有那麼多的土地去蓋社宅，你同意嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然啦！"],["李委員彥秀：包租代管政策做得好很重要，你知不知道賴清德跟蔡英文他們當時個別承諾的社會住宅到底有多少戶？應該達到多少戶？"],["莊部長翠雲：8年是20萬戶，有自有興建也有包租代管。"],["李委員彥秀：賴清德要達到多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：應該是……"],["李委員彥秀：好，我不考你，是100萬戶。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["李委員彥秀：現在總共有多少戶社宅？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，關於這個數據，第一個就財政部來說，包租代管我們全力的協助，包含在國有財產的國有房屋也做……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，當然這不是你的主要業務，但是後面我會問你，因為現在是12.8戶，來看一下相關的數據，現在臺北市3,296戶，臺北市包租代管業務的戶數遠低於其他的直轄市，原因在哪裡？部長，你知道現在1坪在新北跟臺北租金是多少？你住新北，那你知道新北的租金1坪大概是多少錢嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個我沒有數據。"],["李委員彥秀：好，1坪在新北市大概是902塊，在臺北的租金1坪是1,603塊，在桃園是702塊，臺南……我就不再念了，我的PPT 上面有。我們現在是1萬5,000塊以下可以免課所得稅，所以我更認為，如果居住正義要落實的更好，包租代管業務非常非常的重要，針對1萬5,000塊免課所得稅的政策，我覺得應該要有各縣市差異的不同，你同意吧？因為我剛才講的，在臺北市1萬5,000塊可能只可以租到9坪到10坪，在新北可能可以租更多，但是你的包租代管業務就沒有辦法做得更好。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得居住正義是所有政黨都在推動的，如何去落實，無論賴清德或蔡英文的政策，落實社會正義、居住正義，在這一件政策上，我覺得各縣市就要以差異化的政策來推出、來課稅，每一個縣市不一樣，你同意我的邏輯嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，這裡包租代管除了房東每個月有1萬5,000塊免報繳所得稅之外，另外還有他的裝修費用，其實也提高它的比率……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，因為我只剩下15秒……"],["莊部長翠雲：另外，房屋稅跟地價稅也有減徵……"],["李委員彥秀：我現在在幫助蔡英文跟賴清德落實居住正義，我們怎麼樣把包租代管政策落實得更好，所以我提出來在課稅的政策上應該要有各縣市的差異化處理方向，你同意我的說法嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，目前來說是1萬5,000，至於這個部分要不要做各縣市的差異化，我覺得我們可以跟內政部來做討論。"],["李委員彥秀：這個主責方向，在課稅要不要……"],["莊部長翠雲：因為這個在住宅法裡面規定。"],["李委員彥秀：以臺北市來說，譬如我們要給一個家庭18坪，在新北也可以租18坪，那個租金金額就是不一樣嘛！你不能去處罰臺北市願意加入包租代管業務的人，所以我才提出來這樣子的政策，應該要有各縣市差異化的課稅標準出來。"],["主席：請財政部跟內政部會後討論之後送給委員一份資料，好不好？"],["李委員彥秀：你同意這個方式？你有沒有同意這個方向？"],["莊部長翠雲：我要研議嘛！"],["李委員彥秀：好，你研議，那我就告訴你，下個禮拜我會提出相關的政策、法令上的調整，我也希望有機會讓你們來支持。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢。","接著我們請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","王世堅","王鴻薇","賴惠員","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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我覺得我們就要各縣市差異化的政策來推出來課稅每一個縣市不一樣你同意我的邏輯嗎跟委員在這裡包租貸款除了房東的每個月有一萬五千塊的所得稅免稅之免報繳所得稅之外另外還有就是他的費用的就是裝修費用的部長也提高他的比例我只剩下15秒因為房屋稅跟地價稅我現在在幫助"},{"start":593.639,"end":618.696,"text":"蔡英文跟賴清德落實居住正義我們怎麼樣把包租代管政策落實得更好所以我提出來在課稅的政策上應該要有各縣市的差異化的處理方向你同意我的說法嗎目前來說是一萬五那至於這個部分要不要做各縣市的差異化我覺得我們可以跟內政部來做討論"},{"start":620.205,"end":621.406,"text":"因為這個在住宅房裏面規定因為這個在住宅房裏面規定"},{"start":646.485,"end":646.765,"text":"王世堅委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"149509","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149509","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbea35349952cad8899f84c29b94b9165f0f8ba9b0039caa7a650b48a977d456e315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:52:43 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10:04:25","影片長度":"00:11:42","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":702,"end_time":"2024-03-07T10:04:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T09:52:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":318,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時52分）主席，有請莊部長。"],["主席：請財政部莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長好。在您的這個報告書，像是未來的施政重點當中特別提到優化報稅的服務，還說要推動關務法規合理化。昨天本席剛好去臺北關進行考察，在考察的過程當中我們就發現了一些相關的問題，來就教於部長。特別是關貿網路公司自從EZWay實名制之後，已經高達526萬，整個電商產業的數字跟金額攀升的速度也非常之快、非常之高。這種情況底下我們卻發現一個問題，就是跨境電商，民眾在進行消費的時候有三種狀況底下他必須要退貨，一個是商品損害；第二個，基本上是鑑賞期內他不滿要退貨；第三是受到詐騙的這種情況。但是這裡頭都出現一個問題，當他已經被課稅，他要進行退稅的時候，手續都非常繁瑣。","你知道手續多繁瑣嗎？部長，總共要填寫8份表格，包括調換貨進口免稅申請書，委任書、身分證正反面、具切結書等等，總共要8份之多，還要繳一筆公證費用，高達6,000。你也知道B2C這種電商產業所消費的金額都不太多，往往幾千塊，你還要繳6,000，還要填8份。往往有一些民眾去問相關單位的時候，說這沒有辦法，這是國外快遞公司的問題，這我們沒有辦法。部長，真的沒有辦法嗎？目前電商產業已經發展到這種情況，沒有什麼辦法來面對從B2B變成B2C的狀況，而對這麼多、五百多萬人，對於銷售的這種狀況，沒有辦法嗎？你不是要優化？你的AI優化，這一個報稅沒有優化退稅嗎？你不是要把報關的部分合理化嗎？這個部分要不要改？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員的指教，這個部分我們會請關務署來作業。"],["郭委員國文：署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：一定要改，我想這個部分……"],["郭委員國文：要怎麼改？"],["彭署長英偉：報告召委，有關於這部分，謝謝委員的提點。的確誠如委員說的，這個快遞貨物因為它量很大，但是它的金額非常小，我們不能跟一般的海運貨櫃那種型態去做比較。"],["郭委員國文：停留在過去B2B的概念，對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["郭委員國文：因為一般的公司行號人員配置多，對不對？他有辦法這樣，相當的人力跟人才可以進行這些業務的申請，可是一般的民眾哪有辦法！你一大堆方式，你報稅可以減稅，你通關可以簡化，但是你退稅就是沒有簡化。另外也請你好好去瞭解一下，這幾年來關於電商產業，因為他退貨而沒有辦法退稅的，你預估一下是多少，好不好？"],["彭署長英偉：好的。"],["郭委員國文：怪不得我們的整個稅收會超過113%。綜合所得稅，剛剛部長在報告的時候，你的課稅收入會這麼高，這恐怕也是原因之一，整個產業型態的轉變，你們並沒有跟著轉變，你們只有繳稅AI化、繳稅便捷化，但是退稅沒有便捷化，恐怕部長，如果你要站在這個角度思考的話，你應該把所有關於退稅的便捷化都要一併思考，而不是只有繳稅便捷化，部長能不能承諾本席？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們一定會這樣做。"],["郭委員國文：不是這件事情而已。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我知道。第一個，這個事情呈現出這樣的一個情況，所以我們第一個要趕快去做這部分的調整跟修正。至於其他退稅的部分是不是能夠更便捷化，我們來通盤研議。"],["郭委員國文：通盤研議，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝。那署長請回。部長，我就教你一個部分，你知道最近的勞工個人帳戶制，在整個股票的部分，每一個勞工可以增加5萬元收入，因為股市的榮景。也有許許多多相對高薪的勞工原來提撥6%，又加了6%。所謂的個人帳戶制，以開立一個投資帳戶且長期持有的方式，在日本的部分叫NISA，這個NISA的制度他們已經行之多年，從2014到現在，而且經過3次調整，金額越來越大。本席又看到今年你報告當中，我們資深委員吳秉叡特別說不要用超徵，我用超收好了，你超收了113%，每年超收這麼多，我們面對明年超高齡化的社會來臨，而且2050年我們的超高齡化程度可能會比日本更加嚴重，而我們的社會安全體系需要一個更完整的架構，特別是個人理財部分比較缺乏的情況底下，有沒有可能引進這一套制度？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。日本為了鼓勵個人的長期投資跟資產累積，它實施NISA，而且有一段時間，2024開始新制。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：對於這個新制，我們和我們國內的相關稅制都做了一個比較，比如投資的額度、資本利得怎麼課稅、股利所得課稅，我們做一個比較，但是比較了以後發現，其實我們現行的稅制，一般的稅制這個部分其實是比日本更為優化。為什麼？我們沒有對象的限制、我們沒有期間的限制，這個部分事實上是更好。我想這個部分，我們可以做一個對照跟比較提供給委員做參考，譬如我們資本利得的證所稅沒有……"],["郭委員國文：你說的是個別的投資人……"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有課。"],["郭委員國文：那是屬於個別的，本席是在跟你談制度面。"],["莊部長翠雲：是制度面。"],["郭委員國文：比如簡單地講，以個人帳戶制的部分，它適用於目前的一般受雇者，可是一般而言，非一般受雇者當中並沒有一個長期的帳戶（account）在那邊，放在那邊固定存款，而透過類似基金代操的概念，變成一種定期定額的這個概念的方式，而達到免稅的效果。目前為止只有我們的6%裡頭有免稅，6加6的部分有免稅，其他部分的投資者當中，他如果透過長期的部分，有沒有辦法有這樣的優惠？你們之前的說法是儲蓄的部分有免稅。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["郭委員國文：你們對外回答的說法是這樣子，所以你們不想要辦這個制度……"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這樣子好不好？第一個，我們現在做一個比較，當然委員提的是制度面，也就是我存了以後有代操的基金，類似代操的部分，我想這個部分我們是不是再做進一步的研議？"],["郭委員國文：麻煩你進一步很清楚地研議。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["郭委員國文：而不是站在只想要增加稅收的一個角度，不能有財政部的本位思考。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["郭委員國文：我再跟你講一下，你這幾年綜合所得稅的達成率每年都超收，你看到去年為止還有128%，所以這種情況底下，我們是不是應該思考一下透過這種制度的方式來減輕人民的負擔，增加社會安全體制的建構？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員這個建議我們來做進一步的詳細研議。"],["郭委員國文：多久可以給本席？"],["莊部長翠雲：2個月好嗎？"],["郭委員國文：2個月？OK。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：接下來要就教部長，聽說最近有3家公股銀行要進行董事改選：第一銀行、兆豐，還有臺企銀。今天3位董事長都在這邊，改選日期好像剛好都是6月14日，比較巧的是，如果6月14日開股東會的話，部長，根據公司法第一百九十二條之一，股東會必須在25天前公告董事候選人資訊，等於是財政部最晚要在520要提出人選，也就是新內閣就任的時候人選都已經出來了，你確定新內閣對董事人選沒有一個政策上的指示或調整嗎？我不是說個別的人選。"],["莊部長翠雲：我瞭解。委員，6月14日要改選，所以要提出相關的名單，我們部裡面把現任董事名單籌集好以後，未來要怎麼提新的名單，因為有時間的限制，而且要公告嘛……"],["郭委員國文：時間的限制其實是還有……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們當然不能因為520要改組就不提名單，還是要提的。"],["郭委員國文：部長，剛好就是520耶！可是……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會更早……"],["郭委員國文：我要說的是，如果依照公司法第一百七十條，只要今年6月底前開股東大會就好，為什麼一定要6月14日呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：6月14日好像是原來就訂的。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！為什麼一定要6月14日呢？依照公司法，只要6月底以前就可以了啊！所以我的意思是說，就現階段而言，而且依照證交所的公告，3月15日以前都還可以變更股東會資訊。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以是不是要更改6月14日的……"],["郭委員國文：你們應該思考一下！"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["郭委員國文：在法的規定當中，6月底以前召開就可以，為什麼一定要6月14日？"],["莊部長翠雲：就是不要卡在……"],["郭委員國文：6月14日剛好提報名單就是520，完全沒有轉圜的空間，你不覺得應該要有一些あそび，看看新內閣對董事人選是不是有一個統一標準的調整、有一個政策上思考轉圜的空間？是不是有可能？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我想這個部分我們來看有沒有可能。"],["郭委員國文：不然我問一下3位董事長，兆豐金、第一銀行還有臺企銀，有沒有非6月14日不可。"],["主席：請3位董事長上台。"],["郭委員國文：兆豐，你們是不是6月14日？"],["雷董事長仲達：我們是6月21日。"],["郭委員國文：然後你們提報是什麼時候提報？"],["雷董事長仲達：提報我們董事的人選可能更早，可能更早就要提報了。"],["郭委員國文：所以也不一定依照日期，你們是提早作業啦！如果推估的話，也不一定要這麼早嘛，對不對？這個部分是不是容許有一些調整的空間？"],["雷董事長仲達：我們來檢討看看好不好？"],["郭委員國文：嗯，檢討看看好不好？"],["雷董事長仲達：是。"],["郭委員國文：其他2位董事長呢？"],["邱董事長月琴：報告委員，我們的股東會也是在6月21日。"],["郭委員國文：好，一銀也是21日。那臺企銀呢？"],["劉董事長佩真：報告委員，我們也是6月21日。"],["郭委員國文：所以說我是給你們提早一個禮拜了。事實上還有將近10天的あそび的空間嘛，請部長回去思考一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["郭委員國文：最後請教部長，你知道我們現在核心CPI的數字還是居高不下，在這種居高不下的情況底下，「黃小玉」的部分有沒有可能繼續延長關稅上的優惠？"],["莊部長翠雲：現在有關的關稅、貨物稅和營業稅有一些免徵的部分是到3月底，是不是再持續延長？行政院的穩定物價小組會做討論，如果確定以後，財政部就配合辦理。"],["郭委員國文：什麼時候討論？什麼時候回復？什麼時候公布？只到3月底，剩下沒多久了。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個日期我手上還沒有。"],["郭委員國文：你們趕快處理一下好不好？現在已經3月上旬、快中旬了。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文郭委員。","下一位請李彥秀李委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","王世堅","王鴻薇","賴惠員","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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小我們不能跟一般的海運貨櫃那種形態提謀在過去B2B的概念對不對因為一般的公司人員配置多對不對它有辦法這樣相當的人力跟人才可以進行這些業務的申請"},{"start":167.313,"end":175.943,"text":"可是呢一般的民眾哪有辦法你一大堆方式你報稅可以減稅你通關可以減化但是你退稅就是沒有減化"},{"start":178.245,"end":202.264,"text":"市長,另外也請你好好去了解一下這幾年來關於這個電商產業他因為他退貨沒有辦法退稅預估一下多少好不好?好的怪不得我們的整個這個稅收會超過113%我們綜合所得稅剛剛部長你在報告的時候你的科稅收入會這麼高這恐怕也是原因之一啦"},{"start":203.376,"end":221.805,"text":"整個產業形態的轉變你們並沒有跟著轉變你們只有繳稅A化A化繳稅變節化但是退稅沒有變節化恐怕部長如果說你要站在這個角度來思考的話你應該把所有關於退稅的這個變節化都要一併思考而不是只有繳稅變節化部長你能不能承諾本席"},{"start":222.718,"end":223.799,"text":"市長請回部長我就教你部分"},{"start":242.466,"end":265.442,"text":"你知道最近的這個勞工個人賬戶制在整個股票的部分每一個勞工可以增加5萬元的收入因為股市的榮景那有許許多多的這個相對高薪的勞工原來提撥6%要加了6%所謂的這個個人賬戶制開過一個投資賬戶的方式長期持有方式在日本的部分叫MISA"},{"start":265.882,"end":282.65,"text":"這VISA的制度當中他們已經行之多年從2014到現在而且經過三次調整金額越來越大本席又看到今年你報告的當中呢你這一個那個主席我們資政委員吳秉樂這位說不要抄真我用抄收好了你抄收的113%每年抄收這麼多"},{"start":285.251,"end":303.129,"text":"我們能不能在整個面對超高齡化在明年超高齡化的社會來臨而且我們2050年我們的超高齡化程度可能會比日本更加嚴重而我們社會安全體系需要一個更完整的架構特別是個人理財的部分比較缺乏的情況底下有沒有可能引起這一套制度部長"},{"start":305.331,"end":329.024,"text":"謝謝委員日本為了鼓勵個人的長期投資跟資產累積他實施這個NISA而且有一段時間那2024開始新制那對於這個新制呢我們和我們國內的一個相關的一個稅制都做了一個比較比如說投資的額度資本利得的怎麼課稅鼓勵所得課稅我們做一個比較但是比較以後我們發現其實我們現行的稅制一般的稅制這個部分其實是比日本更為優化"},{"start":329.764,"end":330.225,"text":"你指個別的投資人喔?"},{"start":348.524,"end":372.75,"text":"本期是要跟你談制度面的喔。是制度面的。比如說簡單的講以個人賬戶制的部分它適用於目前的一般的受僱者可是一般而言非是一般的受僱者當中並沒有一個長期的賬戶account在那邊放在那邊固定存款而透過類似這一種基金代鈔的一種概念變成一種定期定額的這個概念的方式而達到這個免稅的一個效果。"},{"start":374.687,"end":384.116,"text":"目前為止只有我們的6%裡頭有免稅6加6的部分有免稅其他的部分的投資者當中他如果透過長期的部分有沒有辦法有這樣的優惠"},{"start":386.735,"end":412.91,"text":"你們之前的說法是除稅除虛的部分有免稅你們對外回答的說法是這樣子所以說你們不想要辦這個制度我想這樣子好不好那個我們第一個我們現在做一個比較當委員提供提的是制度面的也就是說我存了以後有貸鈔的基金類是貸鈔的部分我想這個部分我們是不是再來做一個進一步的研議麻煩你進一步很清楚的研議而不是呢站在一個只想要增加這個稅收的一個角度"},{"start":413.47,"end":436.67,"text":"不論有財政部本位思考我再跟你講一下你這幾年的綜合所得稅的達成率每年都超收你看到去年為止還128%所以說這種情況底下我們是不是一定要透過這種制度我們是不是應該思考一下透過這種制度的方式來減輕人民的一個負擔而增加這個社會安全體制的一個建構"},{"start":437.57,"end":437.71,"text":"主席"},{"start":450.092,"end":467.261,"text":"部長,最近有三家公股銀行聽說要進行董事改選一個是第一銀行、兆豐還有台企銀那三位董事長都在這邊董事長,三位董事長能不能請一下好像是剛好這三家都是6月14日"},{"start":468.602,"end":494.705,"text":"那是比較巧的是6月14日如果開董事會的話那個部長根據公司法192之1條董事會必須在25天前公告董事候選的資訊那財政部最晚就是等於是在520要提出人選等於是新內閣就任的時候人選都已經出來了你確定那個新內閣對一個董事的這個人選沒有一個政策上的指示或一個做一個調整嗎我不是說個別的人選"},{"start":495.365,"end":522.076,"text":"我瞭解委員這個6月14日要改選所以要提出相關的名單那我們部裡面也已經把現任的董事的名單就把它籌集以後那未來要怎麼提新的名單因為有時間的限制而且要公告時間的限制其實我們會一定當然不能因為說520要改組就不提還是會要 剛好就是520可是我要說的是如果依照公司法第170條你知道今年6月底前開股東大會就好為什麼一定要6月14號呢"},{"start":524.469,"end":540.217,"text":"6月14日是好像原來就訂了對啊為什麼一定要6月14日呢你依照公司法你知道6月底以前就可以啦所以我意思是說你現階段而言而且依照證交署的公告你3月15日以前你都還可以變更董事會好"},{"start":543.539,"end":567.915,"text":"是不是要更改6月14日?你們應該思考一下在法的規定當中6月底前就可以召開你為什麼6月14日?而6月14日剛好報的名單就是520就是完全沒有一個轉圜的空間你不覺得應該有一些阿索比讓新內閣當中對董事的人選是不是一個統一的標準的調整有一個政策上的思考轉圜的空間是不是有可能?我想這個部分我們來看有沒有可能?"},{"start":573.778,"end":600.527,"text":"三位董事長請三位董事長上台那個趙鋒你們是不是六月十四"},{"start":602.725,"end":628.914,"text":"六月二十一然後你們提報什麼時候提報提報那個我們董事的人選可能更早是可能更早就要提報囉所以說也不一定可以依照日期你們是提早作業啦是如果推估的話也不一定要這麼早嘛對不對那這個部分是不是還有一些容許有一些調整的空間我們來檢討看看好不好檢討看看好不好那其他兩位董事長呢"},{"start":633.012,"end":644.735,"text":"臺慶"},{"start":645.37,"end":666.431,"text":"報告委員我們也是6月21日那所以說我是提早一個禮拜了那事實上還有將近10天的一個阿蘇比的空間嘛你請部長回去思考一下最後我再暫用半分鐘部長你知道那個台我們現在的CPI核心CPI的數字還是居高不下這種居高不下的情況底下我們這個黃小玉的部分有沒有可能繼續延長這個關稅上的優惠"},{"start":668.913,"end":695.147,"text":"現在有關的關稅、貨物稅跟營業稅有一些免徵的部分到3月底那是不是在持續延長這個行政院的穩定物價小組會做討論如果確定以後財政部就配合辦理什麼時候討論?現在3月底呢?剩下沒多久?這個日期我還沒有手上還沒有你們趕快處理一下好不好?現在已經上旬了快中旬了謝謝謝謝郭國文、郭委員下一位請李燕秀、李委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"149508","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149508","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe0c9902952b63f99ff84c29b94b9165f0f8ba9b0039caa7a6604f80897a2691b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:38:57 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09:52:32","影片長度":"00:13:35","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":815,"end_time":"2024-03-07T09:52:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T09:38:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":215,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時38分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。我們有請財政部的莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你早。我想先請問你……稍微停一下，電腦跑不出來。"],["主席：等一下，我們時間暫停。"],["主席（吳委員秉叡代）：賴委員，抱歉，不然今天你就先質詢啦！"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！就繼續修。","金融營業稅5%，它的處理方式到年底到期嘛！財政部的立場是怎麼樣？是要繼續維持這樣子，3%營業稅、2%放在它的特別準備金那邊，那裡已經有兩、三千億了啦！你要怎麼處理？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，在營業稅法裡面是規定2%的金融營業稅免進入金融營業特別準備金，這是這個部分，並不是5%要落日。至於銀行業跟保險業經營專屬銀行保險本業的部分有一個5%，3%是歸國庫，2%還是進入金融營業稅，但是到今年底以後，這些金融營業稅都不進入特別準備金裡面，所以各界就開始討論這個5%的部分是不是要調整，因為在103年為了財政健全方案的時候說這個3%部分解繳國庫。","我想這個部分，我們跟金管會也都一直密切地做一些討論，因為稅額、稅制的部分，第一個，我們會蒐集國際間對於金融業的相關稅收，不管是營業稅或其他的稅整個加起來，目前它的稅目是怎麼樣，將各個金融業的稅賦負擔跟我們的金融營業稅做一個比較，我們應該要讓我們的金融業有國際的競爭力。"],["賴委員士葆：你的方向跟我們講一下吧！因為我問了黃天牧，黃天牧說問你，現在我問你，你又不知道在講一些什麼東西，我都不知道，到底是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，我想這個部分……"],["賴委員士葆：黃天牧就說問你，但你講一堆我都聽不懂。"],["莊部長翠雲：這部分我們必須還要再跟金管會做詳細的研議……"],["賴委員士葆：你又要找他？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為今年底……"],["賴委員士葆：他說你決定，但你又要找他，怎麼會變成這樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會啦！我們兩個都互相地在密切討論，我們兩部都在……"],["賴委員士葆：外面有兩種聲音啦！第一個聲音說大家營業稅都5%啊！為什麼金融業要特別去給它降？可是金融業就表示，全世界金融業的營業稅沒有這麼高，因為它沒有進項可以扣，那個5%是因為有進項可以扣，因為它沒有進項，所以不應該這麼高。對於這兩個聲音，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們會跟國際間的稅賦來做一個比較……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候會有答案？"],["莊部長翠雲：會有答案啦！我們會跟金管會持續地努力。"],["賴委員士葆：還是因為你現在是看守內閣，你不要做決定了，就拖給下一任部長？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，我們一直都在做相關資料的蒐集跟討論。"],["賴委員士葆：520之前可以出來嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我沒有辦法做這樣的一個確定。"],["賴委員士葆：討論也不要那麼久啦！這是很大的事情耶！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["賴委員士葆：這是很大的事情耶！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，但是因為時間一直到12月底嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：我們看到美國眾議院在1月底通過了臺灣租稅協定，就是讓臺美關係往上升，臺美可以互相的免重複課稅，這個事情你掌握的怎麼樣？眾議院通過，參議院還要通過，再送總統簽署。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們跟駐美代表處以及外交部一直持續密切關注，這個部分就如同委員簡報上的資料，1月31號美國眾議院已經通過了，還要經過參議院的通過，參議院通過以後要經過總統簽署，之後我們跟美國還要做一個國際文書的交換，我們要承諾我們提供互惠平等的租稅減免，這樣就可以生效。因為參議院還在做研議、審議當中，所以並沒有確定的時間，我們當然會密切地關注，我們的駐美代表處也持續努力在溝通。"],["賴委員士葆：這個事情既然眾議院通過了，而且老實講，這也是美國對外、對臺灣的一個承諾，我的猜測，在他們的總統大選今年11月之前應該可以搞定，你同意嗎？你同意這種猜測嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們希望，我們也非常希望這樣。"],["賴委員士葆：非常希望這個事情？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["賴委員士葆：這個審議老實講也沒有什麼太了不起，因為它是放在其他的案子裡面，它並不是寫你是眾議院這樣子，可是參議院出來的，不是！是勞工法案裡面的租稅減免之類的，放在那個……"],["莊部長翠雲：對，勞工家庭員工的租稅減免。"],["賴委員士葆：對，放在那個案子裡面，裡面才談到這一段，有談一小段，對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，是其中的項目啦！"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：但是目前……"],["賴委員士葆：它並不是有一個法案是這個法，不是的，是美國有一個法案，但是會牽涉到有關於臺灣租稅相關的免重複課稅，所以放在裡面。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，它有兩個，一個就是……"],["賴委員士葆：它是一個專章。"],["莊部長翠雲：一個專章，是修國內稅法的部分……"],["賴委員士葆：對，他們的國內稅法裡面有個專章。"],["莊部長翠雲：另外還有一個授權法的法。"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：大概是這樣，所以我們會持續地關注，也會跟駐美代表處跟美國財政部……"],["賴委員士葆：再push一下嘛！我想他們選舉……"],["莊部長翠雲：當然、當然。"],["賴委員士葆：選舉也需要華人的票嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["賴委員士葆：這個東西老實講是蠻重要的。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["賴委員士葆：我們再看外面所關心的，根據關務署所查的資料，現在最夯的食安題目叫蘇丹紅，結果我一看嚇一跳，沒有看都不知道，看了嚇一跳，111年、112年，你看，蘇丹紅1號到4號總共數量多少？160公克，一點點啦！怎麼這麼少？我再查另外一個資料才看到，番椒屬就等於是辣椒粉、辣椒粒，這個就不一樣囉！三千多公噸喔！等於300萬公斤啦！因為1公噸等於1,000公斤，然後現在看到高雄地檢署在查，哇！不得了，查兩家公司，只有查到3萬，這是多少？這是301萬公斤啊！它只有查3萬公斤而已。我現在問你這個，你們資料都有，海關來的話，從海關、大盤商、小盤商到食品業者，每一個階段都有發票，對吧？部長，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：如果正常應該有發票，這部分……"],["賴委員士葆：都有發票啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：我是不是請我們關務署或者是賦稅署回答一下？"],["賴委員士葆：賦稅署來回答一下，都有發票，對不對？"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，如果它進口有去申報我們講的營業稅、關稅，就會有發票。"],["賴委員士葆：它進口進來絕對是有申報啊！然後它領出來給大盤商絕對有發票啊！"],["宋署長秀玲：它如果……"],["賴委員士葆：大盤給小盤也有發票啊！小盤給這些食品業者也是有發票啊！"],["宋署長秀玲：如果它每一環都沒有斷鏈，就是每一環都有開立發票，確實在我們的發票資料上會有。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！以現在來講的話，我覺得現在的衛福部還有所謂的食安幾環有這個迷思，其實我們財政部可以提供很大的幫助，給它發票、給衛福部相關的發票資料、給我們地方政府的衛生局發票資料，他們幫忙勾稽，很快就抓到了，否則現在人心惶惶啊！大家想說之前好像有去吃八方雲集或其他什麼的，裡面有辣油，一次吃一包，不知道吃進肚會怎麼樣？而且還要保留發票，消費者要保留發票，到時候求償要用的啦！你要補充嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，我想這個部分……"],["賴委員士葆：我就問你……"],["莊部長翠雲：食安溯源很重要，所以發票資料我們可以提供給衛福部去做……"],["賴委員士葆：可以吧！請你主動提供給衛福部、主動提供給各縣市政府，告訴他們這個可以幫助勾稽，去抓到還有哪一些有蘇丹紅，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：可以，我們可以提供發票，請他們去溯源。"],["賴委員士葆：馬上做、馬上做喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["賴委員士葆：回去就做了，這個絕對是有幫助的。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["賴委員士葆：要不然的話，現在檢察官查了半天就只查了3萬，現在有301萬公斤耶！你要想這樣耶！不要只有去看蘇丹紅，蘇丹紅只有一點點而已啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：品名的部分我們跟衛福部再討論。"],["賴委員士葆：好。過去大家也關心的，有很多國家隊啦！我就舉三個，雞蛋國家隊，補助了34億；綠能國家隊，補助了256億；電動大客車國家隊，補助了600億。請問這些帶給國家多少的營所稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有做這方面的統計。"],["賴委員士葆：你統計一下可以嗎？回去統計國家隊。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們要去瞭解一下……"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！這也不用補助，除了疫情期間，他沒有免稅，還是有繳稅的喔！要繳稅。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們去瞭解一下這個行業別是什麼，來瞭解一下，可以嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：去瞭解。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["賴委員士葆：其實你們財政部都有資料，沒有那個的話就按照書面，你們抓他的獲利是8%，營所稅20%，所以就是1.6%，Google一下都有這樣的資料，我就告訴你，是可以這樣陳報，就是1.6%。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，剛剛那個資料2個禮拜內給我，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們……"],["賴委員士葆：1個月好了。"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我們要先確認那個資料要有用，就是什麼把它挑出來……"],["賴委員士葆：好，最後一點也是很重要的，今天八大行庫都在這裡，軍公教加10%，一銀和臺企銀、合庫、華銀都是4%，彰銀沒有4%，他用獎金的方式給付。彰銀董事長在不在，能不能來一下？兆豐平均有4.5%，比average高，都是4%，臺銀跟土銀是因為另外的制度，那就不在這裡面。彰銀就不調底薪，我就請問部長要不要責成彰銀，真的這些勞工、員工都很辛苦，大家打拚了，你就不要用什麼獎金方式，那個另外算，但是你調薪就調底薪，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個是不是我們讓董事長說明一下？"],["賴委員士葆：董事長說明一下，可不可以？"],["凌董事長忠嫄：報告委員，其實我們每一年都有調薪了，因為我們薪資的制度跟其他行庫的標準不太一樣，其他的行庫他們都是用職級的方式，每年就會自動跳薪，但是我們是整體性調薪。另外我們也希望透過獎金的方式，對於同仁的獎勵……"],["賴委員士葆：那個獎金，公會在意的很簡單，大家都很清楚，沒有放底薪會影響到他的退休金，就是這樣而已，差在這裡啦！所以你回去研究一下，好不好？"],["凌董事長忠嫄：好。"],["賴委員士葆：其實不僅僅只有彰銀，所有行庫的勞工都有這樣的心聲。今年的話，其他的行庫都調4%，下一次說不定有樣看樣啊！下一次看彰銀這樣子，他也學彰銀，都通通調獎金，那樣感覺不好、感覺不好。好不好？謝謝。"],["凌董事長忠嫄：好。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員。","下一位請郭國文委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","王世堅","王鴻薇","賴惠員","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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他每一環都沒有斷鏈就每一環都沒有開立發票確實讓我們發票會有我覺得現在的衛福部還有所謂的死安擠環這個迷思其實我們財政部可以提供很大的幫助給他發票給衛福部相關的發票資料給我們地方政府的衛生局發票的資料"},{"start":555.234,"end":573.652,"text":"他們幫忙攻擊,很快就抓到了,否則現在人心惶惶啊,大家想說哎喲我整個感覺去吃那個包放飲料,去吃三回,啊裡面會有辣油,吃一包一包,應該吃得到就不知道要怎樣,而且保留包票,他說消費者保留包票,他說球場用的。"},{"start":574.552,"end":593.302,"text":"你還沒有補充嗎?委員我想這個部份 呃 呃 這個我實在安理說做員很重要 所以發派資料我們可以提供給衛福部去做事可以吧 請你主動提供給衛福部 主動提供給各縣市政府告訴他們說 這個可以幫助你攻擊去抓到海耳那一些蘇丹農"},{"start":595.703,"end":618.957,"text":"可以嗎?馬上做喔!就是回去就做了齁!這個絕對是有幫助的喔!要不然呢現在檢察官查了半天就查到3萬你現在3千有301萬公斤勒!你要想這樣勒!不要去看那個只有什麼蘇丹農蘇丹農今天一點點而已啦!我們看下一頁那品名的部分我們跟那個衛生部再討論"},{"start":622.089,"end":630.872,"text":"過去大家有關心的有很多國家隊啦我就舉3個雞蛋國家隊補助了34億綠能國家隊補助了256億電動大客車國家隊補助了600億請問這些帶給國家多少的營所稅有沒有"},{"start":643.507,"end":665.914,"text":"我沒有做這方面的統計你統計一下可以嗎?合計統計國家對我們要去了解一下這個補助出來疫情期間他沒有免稅喔還是要繳稅的喔我們去了解一下這個行業別是什麼來了解一下可以嗎?去了解我再告訴你們資料其實你們才這麼多資料"},{"start":666.974,"end":667.134,"text":"拜訪委員會議長"},{"start":687.698,"end":696.562,"text":"部長,剛剛那個資料兩個禮拜內給我可以嗎?可以好了。好,最後一點也是很重要的今天八大航庫都在這裡我們軍工教加4%一營、台切一營、核庫、華營都是4%張營張營沒有4%"},{"start":714.81,"end":732.138,"text":"他用搶金的方式幾乎：章雲董事長在不在啊?你們來一下我證明我都知道趙鋒還拼了4.5%比Average高了24%台銀跟土銀是因為另外的制度那就不在這裡面了章銀"},{"start":734.351,"end":750.784,"text":"這個就不調底薪我就請問部長要不要責成張文啊真的這些老公員工都很辛苦啊大家打拼了你就不要用什麼獎金高手那個另外算但是你調薪就調底薪可不可以這個是不是我們讓董事長說明一下可不可以"},{"start":753.614,"end":775.529,"text":"報告委員其實我們每一年都有調薪因為我們的薪資的制度跟其他的行庫的標準不太一樣因為其他的行庫他們都是用這個直擊的方式那每年就會自動調薪但是我們是整體性的調薪另外我們也希望說透過獎金的方式對同仁的獎金公會在意的很簡單大家都很清楚"},{"start":776.71,"end":776.95,"text":"主席"},{"start":807.14,"end":811.906,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝賴士葆的委員下一位請郭國文郭委員"}]}},{"id":"149507","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149507","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbea83ebf3315ed27d8f84c29b94b9165f0f8ba9b0039caa7a635932578338c4f7e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:26:42 - 09:38:45","影片長度":"00:12:03","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":723,"end_time":"2024-03-07T09:38:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T09:26:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":155,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時26分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長早。臺灣雖然現在電子產業尤其是晶片、AI產業等等非常發達，可是我們臺灣從過往的歷史來看，我們中小企業的穩健跟成長，一直是我們臺灣經濟的一個亮點，如果跟韓國這種國家比起來的話，在蘇貞昌院長當行政院長的任內，他改變了對於公股銀行的考評，其中有一個很重要的就是對中小企業的放款，因為以前可能我對大企業一次就借幾十億，小企業、中小企業可能我只有借幾百萬、幾千萬，那我還不如大企業做1家，所放款的金額比中小企業做上百家還要大。所以以前如果是用金額來作為評估績效的時候，政策上面引導就使得大家比較忽視，相對起來會比較忽視中小企業的貸款。我想請問，蘇貞昌院長離任之後，現在是陳建仁院長在當行政院院長，這樣的政策跟這樣的評估有改變嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，確實您提到蘇院長那個時候，對我們公股行庫、各銀行對於中小企業的金融支援是非常支持，不能只是以金額而是以件數，因為跟大客戶做1件，小的要做100件，可能大家都不願意去做這個小額的，所以有這樣的考評，而且甚至用秘密客的方式來做偵測。其實財政部對於中小企業的金融支援是持續在做，我們推出了千億振興方案，以我們公股行庫自有資金總數6,000億來支援我們的中小企業，支持他們能夠做更好的轉型、升級。到目前為止，到1月31號已經核貸了3,000億，總共有三萬三千七百多戶。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長，我現在要問的是，跟那個時候比起來，你現在的評比標準有改變嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有變，而且……"],["吳委員秉叡：大家的成績有比以前更好嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然這個成績的比較，我剛剛有提到，就是我們的總數以及家數也非常多，而且我們是以中小企業還是微型轉型升級，我想這個部分的對象是非常明確的。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，先暫停一下。主席，是不是請公股行庫的董事長上臺說明一下……"],["主席：時間暫停，請各公股行庫董事長上臺說明目前放貸的情形。"],["吳委員秉叡：對中小企業放貸的情形跟以前的比較。"],["主席：哪一位要先？臺銀要不要先？"],["吳委員秉叡：沒關係，我想我就一一針對……我就這樣子請教，各位董事長以前有一段時間對於中小企業的放款，我知道很受到中小企業的稱讚，比例也真的增加很多，現在跟對於中小企業放款比例很高的那段時間比起來，你認為你現在仍然持續對中小企業放款的這個政策而且有增加的，可不可以拜託請你舉手看看？請放下來，那就是大家都認為說自己的行庫對於中小企業的放款有持續關心而且持續認真在做，而不以金額作為標準，這樣很好，謝謝你們，請回座，謝謝。","我要這樣問的原因是因為臺灣這兩、三年來，尤其是電子業方面的欣欣向榮，還有各項的產業也都增加了，包括在綠能、包括在生技，當然因為中國只管生產沒有管競爭的那一些鴻海的競爭產業這幾年是相當不好，中國產能一開出來，因為那後面都有很大的政府補貼，臺灣在那一部分是辛苦了，除了那個不論之外，其他的行業我是覺得都很不錯，不過整個行業很不錯的時候，我們就是要重視、要讓中小企業能夠更強健、更穩固，因為大部分的就業機會是在中小企業這個行業上面，不知道部長你贊不贊成這樣的想法？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯，是的，中小企業是我們經濟發展非常重要的一個主幹。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，既然這樣，臺灣這幾年經濟有成長，政府施政都希望能夠讓更多人來共同享受經濟的成果，所以我們以前有一個中小企業發展條例，其對於經濟指數達到一定的狀況之下，本國籍現職基層員工如果加薪，他加薪的部分扣抵可以到130%嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：可是這個今年就要到期了，先請教財政部，經濟部的想法是要延長它的適用期間，不知道你贊不贊成？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們已經跟經濟部討論了，第一個我們會同意，而且對於相關的門檻跟條件也認為應該要放寬，讓更多的企業可以適用。"],["吳委員秉叡：其實重點是在這邊啦！因為以前訂法令的時候就訂一個失業比例要高達多少以上，很奇怪，事實上臺灣這幾年來的經濟成長使我們的失業率很難達到那個標準，只有在民國2006年、2007年，就是民國95年、民國96年的時候曾經有這樣適用，這個條例實施了這麼久，金額總共才6,000萬。"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊！"],["吳委員秉叡：因為130%獲得利益的才一千七百多萬，所以這個有訂跟沒訂一樣，用得到的人實在太少了，所以你說這個放寬的條件，第一個，失業率要達到多少以上，這個比例是不是要拿掉？因為就我們剛剛講的，我們是希望經濟發展的果實能讓大家共享，如果你還訂說一定要失業多少以上的時候這個才能啟動，這樣達不到我剛剛講的目的，不知道你贊不贊成？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，這個部分贊成，因為當時訂的時候的失業率高，為了要促進就業所以訂了一個門檻，我覺得這個部分應該增僱我們相關的員工，然後給予加薪，應該都要給予企業鼓勵，這個部分經濟部已經跟我們討論修正草案，我們財政部也提供相關的意見了。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，就我內部的瞭解，原來加薪可以折算企業成本的130%，你們也打算折算到150%嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：臺灣的就業情況，尤其是領薪水的階層常常抱怨薪資不夠，但是同一時間企業卻在大幅獲利，包括我們的稅收都大幅增加，你看你今年的報告，今年跟去年的預算數相比，光稅負的部分又多增了二千九百多億，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：可見還在蓬勃發展，今年開春以來，股市的成交量一直放大，交易稅也會增加，所以我覺得如果今年這樣的狀況持續下去，很可能今年的稅收還是會超過預算數很多，在這樣的狀況之下，我們應該儘量鼓勵企業、鼓勵各方讓員工能夠加薪，讓受薪階級的薪水能夠增加，所以你們在訂的這個政策什麼時候會送到立法院來審？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前經濟部正在預告當中，預告完它會送到行政院，然後再送立法院，因為4月底就要截止了，所以一定要在這個時間以前。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個會期來得及嗎？因為你那個……"],["莊部長翠雲：5月19日屆期。"],["吳委員秉叡：你這個屆期是5月底，你送到立法院來，立法的時間這樣是否夠充裕……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會讓它追溯……"],["吳委員秉叡：那趕快……"],["莊部長翠雲：然後做一個接續這樣子……"],["吳委員秉叡：趕快跟各界溝通啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：最後就你報告的第2頁，你去年的收入比預算數多很多。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，112年。"],["吳委員秉叡：其中最多的是規費、罰賠款還有財產其他收入，你的預算數1,200億，結果實際收1,569億，超過369億，達到130.8%，這裡面增加的主要是哪裡？如果是罰賠款，其原因在哪裡？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們是不是可以再瞭解？因為有時候罰賠款是一個不確定的因素，增加最多的事實上是財產收入。"],["吳委員秉叡：財產收入增加最多的原因是什麼？"],["曾署長國基：有一些地上權的……"],["吳委員秉叡：地上權的標售……"],["莊部長翠雲：地上權權利金的收入。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果是這個的話，那還可以接受啦！但是大臺北地區超過500平方公尺以上的土地現在已經是不能標售了。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，是不標售的，但是因為孳息收入也是屬於財產收入的一項。"],["吳委員秉叡：地方政府跟中央政府這個態度之間的差距就變成地方政府可以賣，但中央政府不能，會不會有這樣的問題呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：內政部正在協調地方政府，因為售地當然是屬於地方自治的事項，內政部會去跟他們協調。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外還有一個常常被詬病的是你們標售土地的時候，事實上得標的價格都遠比原來的市價要高，造成房地產不停的在拉高，因為成本墊高就會拉高這個價格，這個問題有沒有想過要怎麼樣解決？"],["莊部長翠雲：對啦！標售底價有的時候會……因為他一定要比底價高才能標得到嘛，所以有時候公有土地的標售會成為定錨的效果……"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊！但是那個制度如果是用標的，在競標的時候本來就會加價才標得到，所以……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們現在的國有土地幾乎都不標售了，因為大面積不標了，然後以設定地上權的方式，目前設定地上權的方式，國產署也開始用比較主動的方式，也就是設定產業並配合國家的政策，比如說設定這個產業，而不是像過往一樣只是按權利金的高低來做競標，是以產業面……"],["吳委員秉叡：這個如果要改變一直墊高的情況，可能標售或是標租的整個制度要去做一個思考，看要如何做一個改變，如果你是用競標的方式，這個都是無法避免的。"],["莊部長翠雲：就會存在這樣的情形。"],["吳委員秉叡：謝謝你，加油！"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員的質詢。","接著我們請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","王世堅","王鴻薇","賴惠員","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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孫政院長離院之後現在是陳建仁院長在當行政院長這樣子的政策跟這樣的評估有改變嗎"},{"start":96.872,"end":125.268,"text":"跟委員報告確實您提到蘇院長那個時候對我們公股、行庫各個銀行對於中小企業的金融資源是非常支持不能只是以金額而是以件數因為跟大客戶做一件可能小做100件可能大家都不願意去做這個小額的所以有這樣考評而且甚至用秘密課的方式來做來做偵測那其實財政部對於中小企業的一個金融資源持續在做我們推出了千億振興方案以這個我們的以公股、行庫自有資金以6000億"},{"start":126.369,"end":126.57,"text":"總共有33700多戶"},{"start":140.27,"end":164.149,"text":"部長我現在要問的是說跟那個時候比起來你現在的這個評比的標準有改變嗎?沒有變大家的成績有比以前更好嗎?我們在這邊當這個成績的比較我剛剛提到就是我們的一個總數以及加數也非常的多而且我們是以中小企業還是微型轉型升級這個我想這個部分這個對象是非常明確的"},{"start":164.895,"end":181.823,"text":"好 那先暫停一下主席是不是請公股行庫的董事長上台說明一下他們請時間暫停 請各公股行庫董事長上台說明目前放貸的情形對中小企業放貸的情形跟以前的比較"},{"start":210.024,"end":233.074,"text":"來,哪一位先?台營要不要先?我想我就不一一針對我就這樣子請教各位董事長以前在對中小企業的這個放款有一段時間我知道是很受到中小企業的稱讚那比例也真的增加很多那現在跟那一段"},{"start":234.133,"end":244.912,"text":"放款對中小企業比例很高的那段時間比起來你認為你現在對中小企業的放款仍然持續這個政策而且有增加的可不可以拜託請你舉手看看"},{"start":248.915,"end":262.708,"text":"請放下來那就是大家都認為說自己的航庫對於中小企業的放款持續關心而且持續認真在做而不以金額作為標準那這樣很好謝謝你們請回座謝謝"},{"start":271.701,"end":286.944,"text":"我想我要這樣問的原因是因為我們台灣這兩三年來尤其是電子業方面的欣欣向榮還有各項的產業其實有的增加了包括在綠能包括在生技"},{"start":287.825,"end":302.411,"text":"當然因為有中國這個他只管生產沒有管競爭的那一些鴻海的競爭的產業這幾年是相當相當不好那中國產能一開出來台灣的跟他因為那都後面都很大的政府補貼那不是辛苦了"},{"start":303.683,"end":324.622,"text":"除了那個不論之外其他的行業我是覺得都很不錯不過我們在整個行業很不錯的時候我們就是要重視要讓中小企業能夠得到更強健穩固因為大部分的就業機會是在中小企業這個行業上面部長不知道你贊不贊成這樣的想法沒有錯是的中小企業是我們非常重要的一個經濟發展的主幹"},{"start":327.544,"end":348.476,"text":"既然這樣台灣這幾年經濟有成長經濟的成果我們政府施政都是希望能夠讓更多人能夠來共同享受所以我們以前有一個中小企業發展條例它對於這個經濟指數達到一定的狀況之下如果對於本國級現職基層員工加薪"},{"start":351.394,"end":377.023,"text":"那他加薪的部分扣底可以到130% 對不對可是這個今年就要到期了先請教財政部對於這個經濟部的想法說要延長它的適用期間不知道你贊不贊成這個部分我們跟經濟部已經討論也會第一個會同意而且對於相關的門檻跟條件認為也應該要放寬讓更多的企業可以適用"},{"start":378.499,"end":402.965,"text":"其實重點是在這邊啦因為以前訂那個法令的時候很奇怪是訂一個事業比例要高達多少以上那事實上台灣這幾年來的經濟成長是我們的失業率很難達到那個標準只有在民國2006年2007年就是民國95年民國96年的時候曾經有這樣的使用以此的"},{"start":404.138,"end":423.797,"text":"議員．吳秉叡議員"},{"start":424.157,"end":439.865,"text":"這個要失業率達到多少以上這個比例是不是要拿掉因為跟我們剛剛講的我們是希望經濟發展的果實大家共享如果你還定說一定要失業多少以上的時候我這個才能啟動那這個達不到我剛剛這樣講的目的這個不知道你讚不讚成"},{"start":440.946,"end":441.526,"text":"財政部提供相關的意見"},{"start":460.625,"end":489.075,"text":"據我內部的了解原來加薪可以折算企業成本的130%你們也打算折算到150%嗎?那台灣就業尤其是領薪水的這個階層常常抱怨就是說薪資他們認為是不夠的但是我們同一個時間企業卻在大幅的獲利包括我們的稅收都大幅增加你看你今年的報告今年光是"},{"start":490.656,"end":509.455,"text":"昨年光是跟預算數相比光稅負的部分又多增了2900多億對不對那可見還在蓬勃發展那今年開春以來股市也一直成交量一直放大那個交易稅也會增加所以我是覺得"},{"start":510.469,"end":524.855,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":525.043,"end":546.766,"text":"議員．吳秉叡"},{"start":546.886,"end":552.247,"text":"五月十九屆期五月十九屆期五月十九屆期五月十九屆期五月十九屆期五月十九屆期五月十九屆期五月十九屆期"},{"start":575.154,"end":582.338,"text":"是歸費、罰賠款還有財產其他收入你的預算是1200億結果實際收1569億超過369億達到130.8%這裡面增加的主要是哪裡?如果是罰賠款那原因在哪裡?"},{"start":598.891,"end":616.243,"text":"這個部分我們是不是在了解因為有時候罰賠款它是一個不確定的一個因素那增加最多的是事實上是財產收入財產收入增加最多的原因是什麼財產收入國產署的地上權的標售地上權的權利金的收入"},{"start":617.113,"end":617.693,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":636.261,"end":660.523,"text":"會不會有這樣的問題呢?內政部正在協調地方政府因為那屬於授地當然是屬於地方自治的事項內政部會去跟他們協調另外還有一個常常被詬病的就是說你們標售土地的時候你那個市讓得標的價格都遠比原來的市價要高造成房地產不停地在拉高因為成本墊高就會拉高這個價格這個問題有沒有想過要怎麼樣解決?"},{"start":663.465,"end":676.004,"text":"對啦,那個標售底價有的時候會就是說因為他一定要拿到底價高才能買得到嘛所以有時候這個公有土地的標售會成為一個定貓的效果但是那個制度你如果是用標的在競標的時候本來就會加價才標得到對所以"},{"start":678.988,"end":697.284,"text":"我們現在國有土地幾乎都不標售了都不標售那因為大面積不標了嘛然後以設定地上權的方式那目前設定地上權的方式國產署也開始用比較主動的方式也就是設定產業配合國家政策比如說我設定這個產業而不是過往只是按權利金的高低來做競標這個如果要改變"},{"start":700.367,"end":701.008,"text":"謝謝吳秉叡委員的質詢 接著我們請賴氏寶委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"149506","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149506","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe4edbb572ef2a2037f84c29b94b9165f0f8ba9b0039caa7a6693249bd99c552a55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:15:21 - 09:26:32","影片長度":"00:11:11","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月4日及7日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-2"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":671,"end_time":"2024-03-07T09:26:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T09:15:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":100,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時15分）謝謝主席，與會的莊部長、所有與會的官員、各位董事長和總經理、還有各位同仁以及媒體記者女士先生。是不是請莊部長？"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["林委員德福：部長，你好！部長，我請教你，因為對於娛樂稅、貨物稅、印花稅有很多委員在院會質詢的時候都表示這三種稅目是不合時宜的稅制，對此行政院長陳建仁回應說任何稅制的改革都需要中央以及地方一起來研議，財政部的理由則是會影響地方的財政，那我請問部長，對這三種稅制的檢討，財政部是不是認為三種稅目完全沒有修改的空間？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員一項一項說明，第一個就是印花稅的部分，印花稅是屬於地方稅。"],["林委員德福：我知道。"],["莊部長翠雲：這是屬於契據的稅，它1年的收入大概有170億，是地方非常重要的財源，我們有邀請地方政府來開會，他們認為這個是他們非常重要的一個自籌財源，他們反對廢止，這是地方稅，我們必須要尊重地方自治以及它的財政自主。","至於娛樂稅的部分，當然隨著經濟發展以及娛樂活動的項目有一些改變，是可以檢討，我們也認為在項目上也許可以做一些檢討，在稅率的上限上也可以檢討，或者是我們授權給地方政府有某種彈性，在這個部分是可以……"],["林委員德福：但是行之有年，財政部幾乎是如如不動啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，我們其實都很積極，有一直在跟地方政府討論。"],["林委員德福：那你認為在哪些條件下才有檢討的空間呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個分開來談，譬如說委員提到的貨物稅，貨物稅的部分其實現在的課徵是有導正一些消費行為，比如說在汽機車的部分或者是節能電器的部分，買節能家電其實貨物稅可以減徵，然後電動車跟電動機車的貨物稅其實有減免，就是希望引導消費者走向節能減碳。那當然對貨物稅我們會看著整個碳費的執行情形，會來協徵碳稅，我們來做討論、來做研究。"],["林委員德福：我瞭解，我等一下就是要跟你探討這些。部長，因為時空環境不一樣，你不能把過去那一套一定非得用到現在不可，應該要調整、要改進。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["林委員德福：部長，國際在推動全球最低稅負制，財政部賦稅署署長去年也表示因為因應全球稅改方案以及兩大支柱的進展，財政部滾動式的檢討這些相關的稅制，那我請問部長，全球最低稅負制的推動是不是只會影響跨國企業呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：全球最低稅負制主要是對於跨國企業的集團，它必須要達到一定的稅率，否則對它就可以補徵稅，在這個部分財政部也一直在關注世界各國的推動情形，我們也正在研擬相關的方案。"],["林委員德福：那你認為我們中小企業會不會受到影響？"],["莊部長翠雲：全球最低稅負制有一個門檻，應該是全球的稅負達到……對中小企業這個部分，我們在研擬方案的時候也會考慮。"],["林委員德福：部長，根據媒體報導，財政部考慮差別稅率可行性，也就是年營收達到GMT門檻者再調高稅率，以保障中小企業不受影響，請問部長，採用GMT門檻作為全球最低稅負制適用的作法，你認為會不會扼殺有競爭力的中小企業壯大的可能？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們在研擬相關方案的時候會根據各國的推動情形、各個企業的體質以及它的狀況來做一些研擬，然後避免有所衝擊。"],["林委員德福：本席認為目前在全球化發展下，中小企業所處的環境除了要生存、要成長，還要面臨各種的挑戰，政府對行之有年的稅制應該有重新檢討的必要，因為財政健全不是只有節流，更要有創造開源的這些精神，才有永續發展的可能，你認為呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：認同委員的意見，我覺得稅制當然也要與時俱進。"],["林委員德福：對啊，時空環境不一樣，當然要與時俱進啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：當然地方政府的意見，我們依然要參考。"],["林委員德福：部長，整個臺灣經濟，尤其是我們經濟研究院院長張建一去年曾表示，影響明年景氣復甦最大不確定因素是通膨，臺灣景氣要完整且全面性復甦預估要等到明年上半年。部長，我請問你，因為媒體有報導財政部累計前2月出口，估算將正成長6.6%至8.6%，而且財政部認為景氣復甦的趨勢是不變，出口春暖花開的時間點是落在3月到5月。那我請問部長，媒體報導財政部認為景氣復甦的趨勢不變，本席再確認一次，財政部是不是認定景氣已經脫離谷底了，是不是已經脫離谷底了？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們的景氣跟我們的出口值會息息相關，從去年的第四季開始，我們的出口已經成為正成長，在今年1月，出口值也達到371.9億美元，是歷年同月（1月份）的次高。"],["林委員德福：那你認為是不是脫離谷底了？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們認為已經從谷底上來了。"],["林委員德福：從谷底上來？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["林委員德福：3月開始就會好轉是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：應該會逐步好轉，當然國際間的情勢仍然有一個不可預測的因素在裡面，我們會持續的關注。"],["林委員德福：對，所以本席要請教，到底這個好轉是短期的現象還是全面性的復甦？"],["莊部長翠雲：以目前來看，它是一個平穩而且溫和的復甦。"],["林委員德福：部長，因為台經院民間預測機構認為，國內應該會呈現U型復甦，但U型底部會持續稍微久一點的時間，而且復甦還要看整個國際到底有沒有這些需求。所以部長，國際主要預測機構都認為，今年的經濟將會受到美國和中國不足，美中不足，全球受累的影響。美中兩大經濟體分別面臨消費及投資的不利因素困擾，呈現美和中不足。請問部長，你認為美中經濟體的負面狀況，對臺灣到底有沒有影響？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然會有，因為我們是出口導向的國家，美國也好，中國大陸也好，都是我們出口國家，當然這兩個國家的一些科技的角力，還有地緣政治的緊張等，都會影響到我們的出口，但是目前來看，全球的貿易值是往上平穩的上升，這對我們的出口是正面的，而且我們對美國跟歐洲國家的出口，其實也一直在增長。"],["林委員德福：從財政部進出口統計的面向來看，臺灣對美國、中國的這些經貿統計，是不是有受到衝擊，有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：在美國其實是成長的，尤其是我們的AI、車用的電子等等，這些新興科技其實在美國的部分，我們是成長滿多的比例。"],["林委員德福：如果要是沒有衝擊，那是不是代表臺灣可以置身事外，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：在國際的經濟情勢裡面，沒有任何可以置身事外的。"],["林委員德福：如果要是有衝擊，你認為政府、企業要怎麼樣來因應美國跟中國經濟體的變局呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：其實美國跟中國的經濟體的角力已經有一段時間，我們的各個企業其實都已經有在做一些應變的措施，包括有關供應鏈的布局，都有一些改變，我相信這個部分大家都會有一些觀察以及應變的措施。"],["林委員德福：部長，根據財政統計通報，112年出口前50名廠商約占逾半數出口，5年來集中度提升12.6個百分點。部長，前50大含括晶圓代工、IC設計、封測等電子業，石化、鋼鐵、筆電、面板等產業大廠及運輸物流出口占比已經從38.9%提升到51.5%，那我要請問你，出口持續集中這些特定產業，對於國內經濟發展，你認為這是好現象嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，確實我國在國際間的競爭優勢是電子、資通訊的產業是最強的，因此我們的出口結構就高度集中在電子零組件，還有資通訊產品，再加上這幾年、近年AI新興應用的商機蓬勃，所以我們的出口就會集中在這個部分。當然產業是不是過度的集中，是不是一個好的現象？當然目前來說是非常好的，也非常持續的延燒，對我們出口值的成長有很大的幫助，但是會不會承受相關的風險也會高？我想這個部分經濟部跟國發會都有在評估。"],["林委員德福：部長，央行理監事會曾經討論產業結構過度集中這些問題，如果由出口集中現象來看，請問部長，在解決產業結構過度集中的問題上，政府是不是做得不夠？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分經濟部一直都在輔導相關的產業轉型跟升級，然後提升國際的競爭力，都一直持續在做。"],["林委員德福：你認為這些對整個國內經濟成長未來會不會產生一些衝擊？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然會有一些正面的效益。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["林委員德福：好，我的時間到了，其他的下次再問，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員的質詢。","接著我們請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-2","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","王世堅","王鴻薇","賴惠員","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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d":328.869,"text":"我請問你因為媒體有報導財政部累計前2月出口估計估算將正成長6.6%至8.6%而且財政部認為景氣復甦的趨勢是不變出口春暖花開的時間點是落在3月到5月那我請問部長媒體報導"},{"start":341.352,"end":362.006,"text":"財政部認為景氣復甦的趨勢不變本期再確認一次財政部是不是認定景氣已經脫離谷底了是不是已經脫離谷底了跟委員報告我們的景氣跟我們的出口值會息息相關那從去年的第4季開始我們的出口已經成為正成長"},{"start":362.686,"end":365.188,"text":"在今年1月出口值也達到371.9億美元那是歷年同月的次高在1月份那你認為是不是脫離谷底我們認為已經從谷底上來了那3月開始就會好轉是不是應該會逐步的好轉那當然國際間的一個情勢仍然它有一個不可預測的因素在裡面"},{"start":387.643,"end":402.467,"text":"對,所以說本期要請教說到底這個好轉是短期的現象還是全面性的復甦呢?以目前來看它是一個平穩而且溫和的一個復甦部長,因為台金院民間預測機構認為國內應該會呈現U型的這個復甦但U型底部會持續稍微久一點的時間而且復甦啊"},{"start":414.008,"end":436.915,"text":"還要看整個國際到底有沒有這些需求所以說部長國際主要預測機構都認為說今年的經濟將會受到美國跟中國不足美中不足全球受累的影響那美中兩大經濟體分別面臨消費以及投資的不利因素的困擾"},{"start":438.275,"end":443.382,"text":"呈現美跟中不足請問部長你認為美中經濟體的負面狀況對台灣到底有沒有影響"},{"start":452.776,"end":475.654,"text":"當然會有因為我們是以出口導向的國家那美國也好中國大陸也好都是我們出口國家那當然這兩個國家的一些科技的角力還有地緣政治的緊張都會影響到我們的出口但是目前來看全球的貿易值是往上平穩的上升那這對我們的出口是正面而且我們對美國跟東歐洲國家的出口其實也一直在增長"},{"start":476.519,"end":502.267,"text":"那你認為從財政部進出口統計的面向來看台灣對美國中國的這些經貿統計是不是有受到衝擊有沒有在美國其實是成長的而且尤其是我們的AI電子車用的電子等等這些新興科技其實在美國部分我們是成長蠻多的一個比例那如果要是沒有衝擊那是不是代表台灣可以置身事外"},{"start":503.974,"end":525.347,"text":"在這個國際的經濟情勢裡面沒有任何可以置身事外的那如果要是有衝擊你認為政府企業要怎麼樣來因應美國跟中國經濟體的變局呢其實美國跟中國的經濟體的一個角力這個時間已經有一段時間那我們的各個企業其實他們都已經有在做一些應變的一些措施包括這個"},{"start":526.187,"end":548.622,"text":"有關這個供應鏈的布局然後再都有一些改變我相信這個部分大家都會有一些觀察以及應變的措施這樣齁部長根據財政統計的通報112年出口前50名的廠商占差不多一半以上的數啊都是出口五年來集中度提升12.6%齁"},{"start":551.064,"end":564.225,"text":"的百分比那部長前50大含瓜、晶圓代工、IC設計、封測等這些電子業那石化、鋼鐵、筆電、面板"},{"start":566.588,"end":572.772,"text":"這些產業大廠及運輸物流出口的占比已經從38.9%提升到51.5%那我請問你認為出口持續集中這些特定產業讓我們整個對這個國內經濟發展"},{"start":584.44,"end":590.102,"text":"你認為這是好現象嗎?根委員報告確實我國在國際間的競爭優勢是以電子資通訊的產業是最強的因此我們的出口結構就高度集中在電子零組件還有資通訊產品那再加上這幾年的因為這近年的AI的新興應用的商機蓬勃所以我們的出口就會集中在這個部分那當然產業是不是過度的一個集中是不是一個好的現象"},{"start":610.888,"end":638.47,"text":"當然是目前來說是也非常好的也非常那個持續的延燒對我們出口值的成長有很大的幫助但是會不會承受相關的一些風險也會高那我想這個部分經濟部跟國發會都會再評那個部長央行理監事會曾經討論產業結構過度集中這些問題如果由出口集中現象來看請問部長在解決產業結構過度集中的問題上政府是不是做得不夠"},{"start":641.254,"end":661.333,"text":"這部分經濟部一直都在輔導相關的產業轉型跟升級然後提升國際的競爭力都一直持續都在做那你認為這些對整個國內經濟成長未來會不會產生一些衝擊呢當然會有一些正面的效應這樣喔我時間到 其他下次再問 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林德福委員的質詢接著我們請吳秉二委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"149505","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149505","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbeaaf4772a920363abaaa95e40c3cff622f8ba9b0039caa7a606c82363fbb529205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:43:13 - 10:59:28","影片長度":"00:16:15","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":975,"end_time":"2024-03-07T10:59:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T10:43:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1406,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時43分）部長、各位司長、處長，大家好，我是翁曉玲。今天針對司法院所提出來的立法計畫及業務報告，我在這裡提出一些問題想要就教部長，首先，這次部長所提出來的立法計畫裡面，有很大一部分是為了要執行打詐綱領，必須要增加檢察官助理。就增加檢察官助理的部分，其實從去年就開始要增加，今年又提出150位員額，我看了一些報告、新聞，部長預計在2025年大概要增加到600位，請部長針對準備要增加檢察官助理的計畫做個說明，謝謝。"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員的關心，去年行政院核給我們100位檢察官助理，這是臨時人員，今年再補充另外增加150位，這是暫時性的來解決現在我們需要的打詐人力，我們希望讓它能夠明文規定在法律上，在法院組織法裡面明文增加可以有檢察官助理，這是第一個說明；第二個部分，600位是整個檢察機關所有的相關人力，包括檢察官、檢察事務官、觀護人、法警等等所有的檢察人力，我們是4年，行政院人事總處核定給我們600位，所以跟檢察官助理是兩回事。"],["翁委員曉玲：OK，好的，謝謝部長的說明，現在在這個PPT裡面可以看出來，其實就目前檢察官的編制、檢察事務官、書記官以及其他輔助人力的部分其實是還有缺額的，想請問部長為什麼在編制還有缺額沒有補足的情況之下，還需要再額外增加人力？"],["蔡部長清祥：不管是檢察官還是檢察事務官，他們如果要錄用的話，經過考試及格後還要經過一段時間的訓練，檢察官需要2年，檢察事務官需要9個月，所以緩不濟急，現在打詐需要的人力是即時的，因此行政院才先給我們一些臨時人力專門在負責打詐的輔助。當然我們現在有缺額並不是說沒有在使用，而是在受訓當中、還沒有分發的，這都已經規劃在裡面了，不是說沒有用，未來還要再增加的話，必須再增加員額，這是兩回事。"],["翁委員曉玲：因為你們從去年開始就已經增加了100位的檢察官助理，可是我們可以看到，其實整個電信詐騙的件數是居高不下，看起來好像增加檢察官助理並沒有真正的去協助檢察官，然後做更好的工作協助，就這個部分來說，我個人想要提出一個問題就是檢察官助理跟檢察事務官，畢竟他們的性質還有他們的專業能力是有明顯不足的，就是他們中間的落差很大，就檢察官助理來說，目前應該是由各個地方檢察機關自己去招聘。"],["蔡部長清祥：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：就他法律的專業能力各方面，不知道你們未來有準備了怎麼樣的遴選方式，因為我不希望檢察官助理沒有什麼專業能力，只是占了這個位置，卻沒有辦法提供檢察官更好的協助，就這部分，檢察官助理有沒有可能未來也採取統一的遴選方式，然後讓他們建立起一定的法律素養，而不是只是在檢察官旁邊做個小助理，處理一些無關痛癢的事情。"],["蔡部長清祥：將來如果規定很明確法制化以後，當然會透過一定的法律程序，還要經過嚴格的訓練培育以後才會分發，這個跟檢察官跟檢察事務官一樣，但現在是因為要馬上來解決打詐的能力需求，所以我們就分配給各地檢自己來招考，招考當然有相當的條件，因為去年才開始實施，所以從這個數字看起來還看不出它顯著的效果，去年各地的反應都非常好，認為可以幫助檢察官處理一些事務性的東西，包括詐騙案件附表的製作、資料的彙整，幫助很大的，所以他們是可以負擔他們的工作、是可以勝任的，將來如果法制化以後，當然要求會更嚴格，會做統一的規定。"],["翁委員曉玲：其實這個部分，就法制面涉及到編制內、編制外，涉及到整個國家人事經費成本的增加，請問人事行政總處有同意你們增加這個員額嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：現在就是在協調，基本上應該同意了。"],["翁委員曉玲：是嗎？可是我聽到的好像不是這樣。"],["蔡部長清祥：當然他們有不同的考慮。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，因為這個……"],["蔡部長清祥：我不曉得委員指的是法制化還是指臨時再增加的150位，這兩個方向他們其實都是贊同的，當然有一些細節的東西、經費的來源還有整個總員額法的限制等等，他們會提出一些看法啦！我們……"],["翁委員曉玲：因為整個政府機關都在瘦身，所以組織精簡這件事其實很重要，當然我也瞭解關於現在檢察人力的一些配置問題，其實就目前來說，有檢察事務官、有書記官還有其他相關的檢察人力，如果能夠在整個檢察程序中讓它更建立起SOP，而且讓它能夠精簡化、數位化，我覺得可以減少檢察官的負擔。","接下來，另外一個問題是我們可以看到，其實近年來法官跟檢察官的離職比例有逐年的提高，不知道部長可不可以回應一下為什麼會有這樣的狀況？以及檢察官如果是自願離職的話，通常大概會是在什麼樣的資歷、在什麼樣的位置上面他們會離職？"],["蔡部長清祥：這是每個人的生涯規劃，他也許擔任過檢察官、法官一段時間以後想要換個跑道，我們都予以尊重，當然我們工作環境的改善也是他的考量之一，我們也盡最大的能量來改善大家的工作環境，像檢察官助理就是能夠解決他一些工作負擔的壓力，所以這個每個人的思考不一樣，但是我們會注意到這件事情。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，我想要講的是，我希望部長這邊可以更積極的改善有關於現在各地方檢察機關的工作環境，畢竟培養一個資深的檢察官是很不容易的，我們國家花了很多的經費來培養這樣一位非常有經驗的人才，可是讓他們在最有經驗、最能夠發揮的時候離開，對於整個司法其實是不好的。","接下來我想要講一個問題，就是其實我很關心受刑人健康權的問題，在聯合國受刑人處遇最低標準規則，又俗稱所謂的「曼德拉規則」，裡面有提到為受刑人提供健康照護是國家的責任，受刑人應該享有健康照護標準等等，並且要能夠獲得必要的照顧，不因其法律地位而受到歧視，當然我們知道現在受刑人已經可以享有健保的醫治，可是在對於受刑人可以申請戒護、保外就醫的部分，目前各地方的監獄還有矯正署其實看起來都是審查滿嚴格的。","我們看一下矯正署，監察院曾經在109年的時候針對矯正署在有關受刑人保外就醫的處理部分提出了糾正案，在這個糾正案裡面，最重要的還是認為監獄還有矯正署並沒有給予需要保外醫治的受刑人即時的治療，就這個部分來說，大家可以看一下，在監察院的調查報告裡面，它其實針對了一些受刑人提出申請要保外就醫的例子，我們看到這些提出要申請保外就醫的狀況其實都滿嚴重的，可是矯正署和監獄並沒有同意，因此矯正署在這個部分就被提出了糾正案，希望未來矯正署跟監獄能夠更重視受刑人的健康及醫治權。","我們可以看到其實監察院提出這個報告就代表矯正署跟監獄對於受刑人到底能不能申請戒護就醫或是保外就醫這些事情審查得非常嚴格，可是在這些年來，我們卻看到陳水扁不斷地去踩保外就醫的底線，他從2015年開始到現在，已經保外就醫9年的時間，請問部長，您對於陳水扁在9年的時間保外就醫，他的健康狀況有沒有改善？請您說明。"],["蔡部長清祥：每三個月矯正署還有他的所屬監獄，他們都會訪視，看他是不是還維持一個需要保外就醫的狀況？都是經過醫生的評估提出一些報告，他們才做最後的判斷。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，可不可以請你提供他這些年來每三個月都要進行訪視，有訪視報告吧？"],["蔡部長清祥：有，我想矯正署……"],["翁委員曉玲：按照SOP的話，應該都有訪視報告，麻煩請您這邊可以把……"],["蔡部長清祥：不過這涉及到個資的問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：這也沒有什麼個資的問題吧，這應該就是很重要的公文書，是訪視他健康改善的狀況。"],["蔡部長清祥：矯正署長在這邊。"],["翁委員曉玲：我實在是認為陳水扁以他現在看起來的健康狀況已經恢復到一般正常人的狀態，他既可以參加造勢活動，也可以擔任他女兒的訴訟代理人，我不太知道為什麼像這樣的一個狀況還可以容許他繼續在外保外就醫，請問部長，您認為臺灣的醫療水準如何？是不是很高？"],["蔡部長清祥：很好、很高，社會肯定。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，那為什麼對於像陳水扁的醫療狀況，這幾年來我們的醫院、醫生都沒有好好的醫治、都沒有改善嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：那也是我們有請他提出一個醫療評估的報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想請教的就是，很明顯這樣的醫療報告違反一般的經驗常識，基本上從一般客觀上來看，他就像是一般的正常人，我相信他的健康狀況絕對比現在受刑人要好很多，不知道為什麼在這件事情上面，法務部矯正署卻沒有作為？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們請矯正署說明一下。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，有關阿扁的醫療是交由高雄長庚還有義大，因為他最近有一些爭議的事情發生，所以我們又指定第三家臺南的奇美醫院來做一些相關專業的診斷，依據我們保外醫治的審核規定，這是一種，我們要依照規定，臺中監獄會固定去跟他做訪查。另外一種是說我們要尊重醫療專業，由這三家醫院醫師的診斷來看准不准予他核准。跟委員報告，一般的受刑人保外醫治是只要提一家醫院就夠了。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我希望你們可以將醫院所提出來的醫療報告，再進行第三人的專家鑑定。我懷疑這些醫生、這些醫院所提出的醫療報告有沒有偽造、有沒有提出假證明。這部分的話，我想這是全臺灣民眾都在看的事情，剛剛吳思瑤委員講得很好，我們要反歧視、我們要平等，我希望在這件事情上面，我們應該要做到平等，不管他之前的身分是如何，所有的人都應該要享受到同樣的健康治療權，同樣的，他們的受刑及應該要被處罰的這些事情，不應該有這麼明顯的差別待遇，我相信在臺灣的社會大家真的都不相信我們的司法，覺得司法基本上已經沒有公平正義，如果陳水扁他的身體健康已經恢復，應該要回到監獄，矯正署應該要依法行政，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。稍後在傅委員崐萁詢答之後，我們先依照開會前宣告的，會先處理臨時提案。在本席詢答完畢之後我們休息5分鐘。","現在先請傅委員崐萁進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-4","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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原本在想說要用綠能來補核能其實目前已經嚴重跳票了"},{"start":235.427,"end":258.946,"text":"以天然氣來補核能的時候會讓暖化問題更為嚴重我覺得這是我們在看這一次電費調漲的時候我其實會有一個政策面的一個考量在這個地方我們往下看一下整個數字來看的時候台電年度的一個發購電量其實我們很清楚看到就是2016跟2023年的一個比較"},{"start":261.688,"end":262.489,"text":"韓文如果說能夠下降而我們還是有足夠的"},{"start":275.674,"end":275.994,"text":"我們再往下"},{"start":293.301,"end":307.357,"text":"我在想說我們這一次整個電價大漲的時候我看我們提出來的報告當中主要沒有提到綠能沒有提到綠能價格的問題沒有提到核能往下佔比的問題主要又提到是國際價格上漲 對不對"},{"start":309.799,"end":324.307,"text":"我有提到綠能的部分綠能的部分因為綠能的部分成本其實還是偏高嘛我們看數字來說的時候按照去年的一個發電成本的時候每一度是大概3.49元對不對3.89元"},{"start":327.449,"end":347.688,"text":"是這個數字嗎?台電的平均發電成本?去年的發電成本稅前是3.95稅後是4.17所以等於是每賣一度電就會虧一點多元的一個狀態那我這邊特別來看一個情況就是我們來看整個台灣的一個電價走勢"},{"start":352.252,"end":360.557,"text":"08年4月的時候每度電價是2.4071元到2016年4月的時候每一度電價是2.5488元就是這8年來的時候上漲5.895.89那麼從2016年到2023年的時候呢到現在每一度的那個電價是到3.1154元上漲22.23%這三個時間點是"},{"start":378.686,"end":401.5,"text":"在馬政府時代的時候上漲5.89%在蔡英文政府的時候還沒有下台因為這次還要上漲10%按照之前丟出來的風向的時候已經上漲22.23%所以我們這邊要特別提到一個點就是說在小英政府"},{"start":402.781,"end":423.596,"text":"最後一次電價審議的時候．如果馬上提高10%的時候．他可能就會在卸任之前．為台灣留下了一個高電價的一個時代．那我們一定不會見這個狀態．因為昨天．他在回應我們委員答覆的時候．他說如果我們現在電價．"},{"start":425.782,"end":429.907,"text":"調漲了10%對物價的直接影響大概在0.1%多可是對整體後續延伸的波動效果會超過2%"},{"start":441.639,"end":446.823,"text":"這是國民新主委昨天回答我們委員的一個答覆所以說當電價調漲．他說超過2%對,波動效果超過2%2%就是我們通常那個警戒線"},{"start":462.073,"end":479.514,"text":"﹗"},{"start":479.614,"end":506.052,"text":"民生用電調漲、工業用電調漲全部都調漲特高外面調漲那這個部分的時候呢選前的時候全部都動漲選後就一次要調期大家非常的惶恐那我們希望對於民生用電的部分能夠不調就盡量不調那我同時要針對這個部分也提到我們的原署之前都有節能加電補助目前是不是會繼續會續辦"},{"start":508.554,"end":528.91,"text":"目前還在辦理當中然後會不會擴大舉辦未來的部分能源署有在爭取未來的經費所以針對今天的質詢本席有兩個主張第一個希望民生用電不要調漲第二個希望能源署節能家電補助能夠續辦能夠擴大辦理好不好是是是謝謝謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘"}]}},{"id":"149503","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149503","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe43fa48eb7581ed2d52afbb2d65d0dae1f8ba9b0039caa7a66e64d1a1634640805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:48:16 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10:57:38","影片長度":"00:09:22","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-3"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":562,"end_time":"2024-03-07T10:57:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T10:48:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":469,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時48分）謝謝主席。主席，有請邱部長。"],["主席：來，邱部長，請。"],["邱部長國正：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長早。在跟您詢答之前，我想先問一個ABC的問題，但請您放心，這不是一個什麼陷阱題。因為我認真看了你的業務報告，知道你們有特別提到要反認知作戰，要堅定軍民的心防，其實剛剛前面很多委員問到非常多的部分，包括要增強我們的實力，所謂實力當然就是軍備的部分，軍備實力要堅強，所謂備戰才能止戰。另外當然就是國軍的素質要提升，這樣在新式作戰當中才能夠搶得機先，但是我對你剛剛講的一句話非常感動，就是這些受訓的軍人最後要回頭想想自己站在哪裡，我覺得這是最重要的。我相信政黨會輪替，從我以前在跑新聞的時候，大家就講了，軍隊國家化，軍隊是國家的，所以說現在民進黨執政，軍隊不是民進黨的，未來如果換了另外一個政黨，他當選了總統，軍隊也不是那一個政黨的。所以軍隊是國家的，不知道部長您認不認同？"],["邱部長國正：我完全認同，而且我跟委員多講幾句，我一直很感激，感激什麼？感激、慶幸我自己身為軍人，軍人沒有黨派的問題，我是一直從這個方面去走的。"],["林委員楚茵：但是我想問的這個ABC的問題出現了喔！這個國家是中華民國，對吧？"],["邱部長國正：對啊！中華民國啊！"],["林委員楚茵：無庸置疑，對吧？"],["邱部長國正：無庸置疑，中華民國，我是中華民國國軍啊！"],["林委員楚茵：好，不知道您有沒有看過這張字條？這是一位現役軍人（現在當然他已經不是了），他曾經寫下的字條，他說：「在此宣誓支持兩岸和平統一，效忠祖國，一旦兩岸發生戰爭，本人會在自己的工作崗位上，盡自己能力為祖國效力，完成和平統一的光榮使命」。他姓向，部長，您知道他是誰嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我知道他是誰。"],["林委員楚茵：好。"],["邱部長國正：不管委員有沒有問，我先下定論，無恥！可恥！"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為這個完全是打擊了國軍的信心，而且就像您剛講的，這一位在服役的過程當中，他竟然可以立下誓約，就你所說的就是個無恥之徒，但是當法院起訴他的時候，竟然用的是貪污治罪條例，他向中共宣誓，但是大家想這個判決，天啊！是不是我們的檢察官不知道，用錯了法令？不是！而是因為如果他對對方宣示了投降承諾書，但是這張投降承諾書只能用貪污治罪條例才能判他重罪，因為我們現行的法規當中，不論我們收了多少，相關國安法，頂多就是只能用一個5年以下的有期徒刑。其實我時間有限，我想問部長，看到像這樣的狀況的時候，只能用貪污來辦他，我知道我們民進黨也有一些委員在接受訪問問到這個案子的時候，他提到的是，其實不只是國軍會被簽署所謂的投降同意書，效忠別的國家、效忠我們的敵對國家，但是我想請問的是，如果部長也覺得可恥的時候，是不是表示我們國軍的法令相關的陸海空刑法必須要有所修正？不然事實上，這恐怕不是只是貪污，而是一個站在我們這裡、接受我們的訓練，但是未來一旦戰事發生的時候，他是立刻就投降，而且在過程當中，他確實是有收受一些對方的款項。所以我想要問部長的就是，如果貪污治罪條例……雄檢為什麼這樣辦？法界人士就直接講了，因為用貪污治罪條例可以處以無期徒刑到10年以上，但是如果用陸海空軍刑法，只能處6個月以上5年以下的有期徒刑，那麼刑期不夠重，當然就有人膽敢立下這種誓約。所以部長您怎麼來看，是不是陸海空軍刑法也必須要有所修正？我特別看了這一次的業務報告，在第19頁跟第20頁有提到，目前為止只打算修正的是陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案，以及軍人權益相關的處理法案，在我指出這樣的問題之後，部長覺得我們國防部是不是也應該要拿出應有的態度呢？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，剛剛講到無恥、可恥是很心痛的一件事，但是這個法規定在那個地方，我覺得無奈，我們也很期望軍刑法能夠恢復、執行，像剛才講到這一條，它前面一開始有個前提，他未遂的才會處以5個月以上5年以下，他假如已遂，我剛一眼看到，是槍決、處死刑，但我不能講因為我自己個人認為，我就咬定，法有一定程序，我們要一步一步改，我們也期望這些人員受到最嚴厲的制裁，不但有懲罰他的作用，還有警告我們國軍同仁大家要齊心一意，而且更讓國人知道我們國軍的向心力是絕對基於法，而且基於本身內心發出來效忠國家的，不會再有這種事情。"],["林委員楚茵：部長，我們都不希望戰爭發生，因為這個犯行如果一旦發生，就以這個案例來講，那就是戰爭發生的時候，他才會被處以死刑，否則他現在立這個誓約，因為戰爭沒有發生，所以他就是預備犯，頂多就是這樣，所以為什麼我提醒你國軍必須要拿出態度來、必須要去修正相關的法令，因為如果你用所謂的預備、預謀，只有6個月以上5年以下有期徒刑，我想在這裡包括在場的大家也都不希望戰爭發生，對不對？所以我特別提到的是，過去國軍對於陸海空軍刑罰當中，因為酒駕、因為毒駕、因為軍事造謠、因為霸凌、因為軍中賭博，我們都可以來做修正，這宣示著軍中對於這些行為，他們所不能接受跟不能容忍。但是就像剛剛我大前提的A、B、C，我也請您回答的，就是如果國家的軍隊所效忠的是另外一個國家，不是中華民國而是中華人民共和國的時候，我覺得它的嚴重性肯定是放在第一個優先順序。所以今天這個議題討論了之後，我期望部長回去研擬，是不是國防部要拿出態度，因為沒有態度就是鼓勵、就是縱容，我相信您的重話也放在前面了，但是至少行政院要有版本、國防部要有版本，至少重視這個命題好嗎？"],["邱部長國正：好的。"],["林委員楚茵：因為我相信這個才是真正我們剛剛前面所講的，不論是在戰備、戰力、武器、人員素質的提升，心最重要，不然回到剛剛我想要強調的，沒錯！一旦真的投敵會處以死刑，但是我必須強調我們不希望戰爭發生，真的出現投敵的狀況，所以請部長把這樣的一個想法帶回去研擬可以嗎？"],["邱部長國正：絕對要這樣做。我跟委員報告，我們真的很心痛，有時候礙於法的規章，我們眼看好像沒轍，其實我個人跟同仁講好多次，我最痛恨就看這個人犯錯以後，可是我們好像沒有辦法，這口氣我都嚥不下，所以我絕對密切配合，而且從重來處理這些人員，因為這是最基本的，軍人要有這個品德，軍人的武德在哪裡？就在這個地方，這都守不住，一切免談！"],["林委員楚茵：好。最後不好意思，主席，我用最後一點時間，今天早上因為有將領同車，無法抵達現場的狀況，其實最新的即時新聞已經出來了，那麼媒體朋友他們當然很專業，不過他們點出了一個問題，國防部的bus在大直有出了一點狀況，以至於他們看出了一個問題是，讓這麼多重要的國軍將領在同一個bus上，那麼會不會有所謂在同一個bus上面同車，然後有危險，這樣的一個狀況？"],["主席：你是擔心團滅的問題？"],["林委員楚茵：是，有沒有可能這樣子？以後是不是就像剛剛因為腳比較不舒服的副部長就可以先行到場，因為安全的問題，所以未來以後是不是考慮不要同車？媒體很想問這個問題。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我們也很想分批，但分批以後有個問題，每個人一輛車或幾個人一輛車，你看這個交通流量為何？"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["邱部長國正：多方面考量，這個好意我也很感激，我們以後會斟酌，好不好？看怎麼樣場合，哪些人沒有必要來就不要來了，來的話他一定有他的功能，好不好？我們或者分批來，這些都可以考量的。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員提醒，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員，謝謝部長。","你叫他不要來的，他會非常忐忑，不過這倒是一個問題，也許分成兩巴，就是折衷啦，單一架的話，各位都是重要的軍事將領，結果到最後只有一個腳受傷的存活下來，這個問題很大。"],["邱部長國正：昨天晚上……"],["主席：對，剛才提到這是一個好問題，安全是時刻需要啦！","我跟在場同仁、跟國防部大家討論一下，因為剛才說林憶君委員詢答完，我們要休息5分鐘，因為陳冠廷委員是我們本會委員，他到了，我不知道部長需要不要休息，我是不是把這休息5分鐘取消掉，我們繼續，各位有沒有意見？"],["邱部長國正：沒有問題。"],["主席：你沒有問題，如果沒有問題，我們把剛才宣告的休息5分鐘取消掉，經在場的同仁同意。","現在進行詢答的委員是林憶君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-3","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","馬文君","陳永康","洪申翰","林楚茵","林憶君","鄭天財Sra 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隊不是民進黨的"},{"start":66.536,"end":87.166,"text":"未來如果換了另外一個政黨他當選了總統軍隊也不是那個政黨的所以軍隊是國家的不知道部長您認不認同我完全認同而且我跟委員多講幾句我一直很感激感激什麼感激慶幸我自己身為軍人因為軍人沒有這個黨派的問題我一直從這一方面去走的"},{"start":87.366,"end":88.006,"text":"這是一位現役 現在當然他已經不是了"},{"start":106.818,"end":125.4,"text":"他曾經寫下的字條他說他在此宣誓支持兩岸和平統一效忠祖國一旦兩岸發生戰爭本人會在自己的工作崗位上盡自己的能力為祖國效力完成和平統一的光榮使命他信向"},{"start":126.803,"end":149.819,"text":"部長您知道他是誰嗎?我知道他是誰好我只能先委員官有沒有問我先下定論是無恥可恥好因為這個完全是打擊了國軍的信心而且就像您剛講的這一位在服役的過程當中他竟然可以立下誓約就您所說的就是個無恥之徒但是"},{"start":151.563,"end":180.106,"text":"當法院起訴他的時候竟然用的是貪污治罪條例他向中共宣誓但是大家就想這個判決天哪是不是我們的檢察官不知道用錯了法律不是是因為如果說他對對方宣誓了投降承諾書但是這張投降承諾書只能用貪污治罪條例才能判他重罪因為我們現行的法規當中不論我們收了多少的國安法"},{"start":181.766,"end":205.254,"text":"他頂多就是只能用一個5年以下的有期徒刑所以其實我時間有限我想問部長看到像這樣的狀況的時候只能用貪汙來辦他我知道我們民進黨也有一些委員在接受訪問問到這個案子的時候他提到的是說其實不只是國軍會被簽署所謂的這個投降同意書效忠別的國家"},{"start":205.674,"end":223.626,"text":"﹗"},{"start":223.626,"end":223.926,"text":"：林楚茵"},{"start":242.831,"end":258.605,"text":"用貪污治罪條例可以除以無期徒刑到10年以上但是如果用陸海空軍刑罰的話只能除6個月以上5年以下的有期徒刑那麼刑期不夠重當然就有人膽敢立下這種誓約"},{"start":259.306,"end":285.393,"text":"所以部長您怎麼來看是不是陸海空軍刑罰也必須要有所修正我特別看了這一次的業務報告在第19跟21也有提到現在目前為止只打算修正的是陸海空軍的懲罰修法草案以及軍人權益的相關的處理法案在我指出這樣的問題之後部長覺得我們國防部是不是也應該要拿出應有的態度呢"},{"start":286.201,"end":309.987,"text":"我跟委員報告,剛剛講到無恥可恥是很心痛的現實,但法規定在這個地方,我不想無奈,我們也很期望去講說軍刑法能夠恢復然後執行,像剛才講到這一條,它前面一開始有個前提,它未遂的才會5個月以上,5年以下,它以遂的話,我剛剛一眼看到槍決,處死刑案。"},{"start":311.526,"end":340.658,"text":"對,但我不能講,因為我自己個人認為,我就好像咬地,法有一定程序,我們要一步一步趕,我們也期望講說這些人民受到最嚴厲的制裁,不但有懲罰他的作用,還有警告我們國軍同仁,大家要齊心一意,而且更讓國人知道我們國軍的向心力是絕對基於法,而且基於本身內心發出來的,效忠國家的,不會再有這種事情。"},{"start":341.152,"end":360.664,"text":"國防部長,我們都不希望戰爭發生,因為這個犯行如果一旦發生,就以這個案例來講的話,那就是戰爭發生的時候,他才會被處以死刑,否則的話他現在立這個誓約,因為戰爭沒有發生啊,所以說他就是預備犯,頂多就是這樣,所以為什麼我提醒你說國軍必須要拿出態度來,必須要"},{"start":363.306,"end":372.862,"text":"去修正相關的法令因為如果你用所謂的預備預謀只有6個月以上5年以下有基督心我想在這裡包括在場的大家也都不希望戰爭發生嘛對不對"},{"start":374.966,"end":401.974,"text":"那所以我特別提到的是說過去國軍對於陸海空軍的刑罰當中因為酒駕因為獨駕因為軍事造謠因為霸凌因為軍中賭博我們都可以來做修正這宣示著軍中對於這些行為他們所不能接受跟不能容忍但是就像剛剛我大前提的ABC我也請您回答的就是說如果國家的軍隊"},{"start":403.715,"end":422.726,"text":"他所效忠的是另外一個國家不是中華民國是中華人民共和國的時候我覺得他的嚴重性肯定是放在第一個優先順序所以我期望部長今天這個議題討論了之後回去來演你是不是"},{"start":423.306,"end":447.41,"text":"國防部要拿出態度因為沒有態度就是鼓勵就是縱容我相信您的重話也放在前面了但是至少行政院要有版本國防部要有版本至少重視這個命題好嗎因為我相信這個才是真正的我們剛剛前面講的不論是在戰備戰力武器人員素質提升心最重要不然"},{"start":448.11,"end":464.078,"text":"我回到我剛剛我想要強調的是沒錯一旦真的投敵會處於死刑但是我必須強調我們不希望戰爭發生真的出現投敵的狀況所以請部長把這樣的一個想法帶回去演你可以嗎"},{"start":465.15,"end":493.317,"text":"絕對要這樣做我跟委員報告我們真的很心痛有耐於法的規章我們好像眼看好像就是沒轍其實我個人我跟同仁講好多次我最痛恨就看這個人犯錯以後而我還沒有辦法我這口氣我都咽不下所以我絕對密切配合而且從眾來處理這些人員因為這最基本軍人要有一個品德軍人的武德要在哪裡就在這個地方這人守不住一切免難"},{"start":494.177,"end":502.361,"text":"最後不好意思主席我用最後一點時間是因為今天早上因為有因為將領同車然後無法抵達現場的狀況其實最新的即時新聞已經出來了那麼媒體朋友呢他們當然很專業不過呢他們點出了一個問題就是說這個國防部的BUS在大直有出了一點狀況那麼以至於呢他們看出了一個問題是說讓這麼多重要的國軍將領在同一個BUS上那麼會不會有所謂在同一個BUS上面"},{"start":522.549,"end":524.369,"text":"每個一輛車或幾個一輛車你看這個交通流量為何多方面考量這個好意我也很感激我們以後會斟酌"},{"start":551.119,"end":551.219,"text":"主席"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}