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"第二名就是管碧玲主委管碧玲主委就是反反覆覆答非所問然後當然態度比較溫和所以他只能拿到第二名來大家猜猜看第一名是誰第一名就是我們的陸委會主委邱泰山邱泰山的阿爸在什麼地方"},{"start":2110.095,"end":2134.194,"text":"他不斷的打斷、插話、干擾委員的質詢最糟糕的是他還說謊他還搬出不存在的立法院的議事規則跟立法委員職權行使法我在這邊要跟邱太三委員講啊憲法徵修條文第三條第二項第一款就明定"},{"start":2135.236,"end":2162.332,"text":"立委有向行政院院長各部會首長質詢之權。憲法沒有規定你插話權。他竟然說我錯了。他說因為立法院質詢行使法規定可以疾問疾答所以他有三分之一的時間。我們的質詢時間五分鐘八分鐘要分他三分之一的時間讓他講。我就問我們的邱主委"},{"start":2163.376,"end":2167.306,"text":"立法院職權行使法有哪一個條文規定你有誰三分鐘時間?"},{"start":2169.127,"end":2194.998,"text":"立法院職權行使法第18條規定 質詢是即問即答就是我問你你就要立刻答 我沒問你就不能答 質詢權不管是在民間在立法院在憲政上 質詢權就是為了賦予我們立法委員充分監督政府的職能 在邱太太口中竟然是要分三分之一時間給他"},{"start":2196.759,"end":2198.44,"text":"謝謝羅委員志強。接下來請登記第二位,圖委員全級發言。"},{"start":2237.56,"end":2258.225,"text":"重建家園確招牌付 航空城搬遷戶合估重建家園確招牌付 航空城搬遷戶合估韓院長 各位立委同仁 還有我們陳院長以及各部會首長 以及我們各位媒體朋友先進 大家早安 大家好"},{"start":2259.218,"end":2263.801,"text":"自2009年國際機場園區發展條例通過以來,桃園航空城的都市計畫歷時15年,面積高達4,564公頃,區段徵收更是突破紀錄的達到3,148公頃,為我們中華民國史上區段徵收最大的開發案。"},{"start":2287.773,"end":2316.485,"text":"航空城數萬戶的搬遷戶經過十多年的漫長等待直到近日終於等到安置接擴的權狀陸續到手重建家園還尚未開工砌上一磚一瓦不料卻成為老農津貼還有國民年金中老年基本保障年金的牌附對象"},{"start":2317.674,"end":2345.134,"text":"本席認為,航空城搬遷戶為配合國家的重大建設與政策,被迫流離失所,因應期盼準備重建家園,卻因為名下不動產的變動而衍生資歷不符的情勢,最後失去原有勤領社會福利的資格,實難為合乎人情義理。"},{"start":2346.581,"end":2367.149,"text":"本席由衷的希望我們行政院、農業部、衛福部以及勞動部等相關部會聽到桃園航空城搬遷戶的委屈與無奈並在下週3月11日的行政院航空城計畫專案推動小組的會議中認真審視類似處域下執行"},{"start":2374.026,"end":2396.053,"text":"還付條款的正當性與合理性,讓航空城的拆遷戶多年來所受到的犧牲能夠得到最起碼的尊重與保障。謝謝。謝謝土委員全集的發言。接下來我們請登記第三位紅委員孟凱發言。"},{"start":2406.656,"end":2434.061,"text":"主席、各位委員同仁今天是三八婦女節感謝剛剛非常暖心的韓國瑜院長率領我們所有的部會官員以及立法委員一起跟我們全國的婦女來致上最高的敬意孟凱也以國民黨團書記長的身份向所有全天下最偉大的女性致上最高的敬意感謝你們無怨無悔的為國家、家庭、社會付出我們一起努力"},{"start":2434.841,"end":2454.976,"text":"但我們也要說三八婦女節我們希望婦女是真真正正的快樂。過去到現在這段時間又發生了社會上許多重要議題讓婦女真的沒有辦法快樂起來。尤其是物價上漲兩岸緊張以及現在食安風暴持續擴大。我們真的要問民進黨政府你們準備好了嗎?"},{"start":2456.059,"end":2473.717,"text":"時安風暴到現在越演越烈,尤其是蘇丹紅的事件。兩個禮拜前我們才記得行政院長在這邊做8年的時安總檢討報告的時候,當時書面報告寫的信誓旦旦,過去8年沒有發生過系統性的時安問題。"},{"start":2475.338,"end":2492.543,"text":"兩個禮拜不到馬上被打臉。 衛福部長在委員會裡面親口證實了這個是系統性的問題。 那我們要問到底中間環節出了什麼差錯。 尤其是源頭管理現在沒有辦法做好。 更重要的是居然還推說是國人愛吃辣所以說很難禁止。"},{"start":2493.163,"end":2507.464,"text":"拜託請了解一下蘇丹紅並不是辣他是食品添加物而且是非法添加物也因此現在現在沒有辦法來證實說到底我們的範圍多廣多大多深影響多全面"},{"start":2508.755,"end":2534.541,"text":"政府部門真的螺絲鬆了再者另外一個部分萬物皆漲唯有薪水不漲尤其是現在4月蠢蠢欲動的電價也要調漲經濟部長也已經暗示了可能連這一次330度以下的民生優點會跟著漲我們要說電價在漲並不是每個家庭每個月多負擔幾十塊幾百塊就了事而是它是全面性的造成物價的上漲"},{"start":2535.666,"end":2542.212,"text":"均不見彈價上漲的時候到現在彈價沒有辦法回去了就是最明顯的道理"},{"start":2543.137,"end":2566.494,"text":"我們希望院長真的把國人心裡的話以及婦女的擔憂記在心裡。最後我要用30秒的時間也要再講一下昨天中華男竹有發表21號禮拜四世界盃亞洲區的資格賽對上吉爾吉斯居然不是在我們熟悉的臺北田地場的場地或是高雄的國家體育館而是居然"},{"start":2567.695,"end":2589.528,"text":"選擇在男子足球場而且是下午4點鐘開打只有千人不到的觀眾席我們要問這明明是我們國家的主場為什麼會去安排一個禮拜四下午4點鐘上班時間還只有千人的觀眾席不讓我們球迷進來進場為球員加油嗎?無論如何主管機關難辭其咎"},{"start":2594.571,"end":2600.103,"text":"謝謝紅委員孟凱的發言。接下來我們請登記第四位吳委員春晨發言。"},{"start":2623.493,"end":2636.525,"text":"主席今天是婦女節祝天下的女性同胞婦女節快樂也向50年來的女性解放運動者致敬"},{"start":2637.509,"end":2664.372,"text":"你們的努力改變了一半人口的宿命,讓數千年來以男尊女卑的文化徹底的改變,讓女性解開了層層的束縛,獲得自由、平等的地位,展現她們的才幹,為社會各個層面貢獻巨大的創造力、經濟力,並在政治上展現她們不讓虛美的實力。"},{"start":2666.68,"end":2679.028,"text":"這麼偉大的成就來自一場女性解放運動。 在這裡我們也不忘向當代台灣女性主義的先鋒呂秀蓮前副總統表達敬意。"},{"start":2680.388,"end":2698.428,"text":"現代時代的巨輪已經進入了高齡社會,戰後嬰兒潮都邁向高齡了。 這群龐大人口是史上未曾出現的新人種,具有高壽、高能力、高資產,跟過去的老人完全不同。"},{"start":2699.289,"end":2721.149,"text":"明年臺灣正式進入了超高齡社會。2030年臺灣一半的人口超過50歲。2045年臺灣的一半人口超過60歲。但行政院主導的引法政策依然依循舊思維,讓整個高齡人生欠缺方向陷入了一片混亂。"},{"start":2722.57,"end":2736.439,"text":"50年前老人占5%,軍命60幾歲。現在老人占20%,軍命80幾歲。請問現在政府的社福思維跟50年前有什麼不同?"},{"start":2737.591,"end":2750.182,"text":"本席認為沿用老人、銀髮族、勒林族等舊稱是一種文化的制約,應該給他們一個新的身份,叫做壯世代,否則錯誤的人設導致錯誤的生涯規劃,錯誤的社福政策導致錯誤的產業方向。"},{"start":2757.108,"end":2786.408,"text":"本席呼籲各部會必須與壯世代觀點重新定義高齡者。壯世代有健康的第三人生,長達30年,掌握臺灣三分之二的財富,這麼大的市場,但是整個社會認知系統卻沒有新的想像。他們需要新市場、新思潮、新社會、新的生活方式。可惜銀髮產業一直沿用對待5%老弱病窮的態度來看待這一群掌握未來的壯世代。"},{"start":2787.128,"end":2813.172,"text":"同樣是大時代的身份認同的變革,女性解放運動創造了女力崛起的光輝歷史,長壽社會來臨,我們也需要一場高齡解放運動,把原本是一場災難的引髮海嘯轉變為國家發展的動力。謝謝吳委員春晨的發言。接下來我們請登記第5號,林委員施民發言。"},{"start":2838.682,"end":2847.609,"text":"國家發生重大事故,全民要的是一個真相。 要的是一個公開、透明且能解決問題的處理方式。"},{"start":2848.891,"end":2856.589,"text":"日前驚嚇漁船翻覆事件國民黨的立場很清楚就是支持海巡人員的執法"},{"start":2857.472,"end":2885.957,"text":"但是沒有按照執法SOP及相關的缺失這些問題必須究責海巡署與海委會在相關事件上的失職必須被監督在我國海巡單位規定的執法流程很明確規定就是要有密錄器的使用與影像的保存一方面保全證據一方面也保護我們基層執法人員以釐清責任"},{"start":2887.057,"end":2900.868,"text":"可是這一次卻發生這樣沒有執法影像的疏失,到現在還是有理說不清,而執政黨更是第一時間就抹紅在野黨,這樣的態度讓人覺得憤怒。"},{"start":2903.88,"end":2916.253,"text":"過去立法院早已決議要讓海巡同仁購置足量的密錄器設備,結果在民進黨完全執政之下完全擺爛。"},{"start":2917.816,"end":2936.571,"text":"後來行政院陳院長雖指示動用第二預備金2150萬購置3061具密錄器,但是過去所造成的錯誤誰該負責,現在竟然還可以大言不慚的撇清責任。"},{"start":2937.592,"end":2965.172,"text":"為了繼續護航專業極度的不足海委會管碧玲主委就是明顯酬庸的主委民進黨黨團還能是非顛倒混淆視聽推說在野黨依法監督是違憲亂政根據憲政者治理設計立法委員對於行政權的監督是天經地義這是"},{"start":2966.591,"end":2982.3,"text":"內政委員會提案要行使調閱權的對象是行政院的海委會以及海巡署並不是法國部調閱是向海委會調閱相關事故的報告資料不是向地檢署"},{"start":2983.18,"end":3009.78,"text":"立法院依憲法行使調閱權沒有違憲的問題。 民進黨的說法真的是魚目混珠。 真的是滴鍋到菜都非常的不適當。謝謝林委員施明的發言。 報告委員會,現在登記國是論壇發言的委員均已發言完畢。 謝謝大家,現在休息。"},{"start":5413.926,"end":5432.613,"text":"現在我們請祕書長報告出席人數。報告宴會出席委員74人已足法定人數。好,現在開會進行報告事項。請祕書長宣讀第一會期第三次會議意思錄。宣讀立法院第11屆第一會期第三次會議"},{"start":5434.073,"end":5436.437,"text":"議事錄時間中華民國113年3月1日上午9時至9時33分時時至12時7分下午2時30分至5時19分3月5號"},{"start":5445.816,"end":5466.574,"text":"三月5日上午9時3分至12時3分．下午2時30分至5時26分．地點本院議場出席委員、陳委員、昭芝等113人．列席官員、行政院院長陳建仁等40人．主席、院長韓國瑜．報告事項第一案宣讀本院第11屆第1會期第2次會議意思錄決定．確定"},{"start":5470.814,"end":5473.336,"text":"第2次22案、第2次4次81案、第8次3次104案、第109案、第110案、第114"},{"start":5480.699,"end":5496.565,"text":"17案、第119案至132案均決定交互相關委員審查處理。第2、3案、第82案均決定退委程序委員會重新提出。第105至108案、第111至113案、第118案均決定另定其處理。第133案委員事處所提出報告案執行事項本院委員執行部分五件。"},{"start":5509.472,"end":5528.575,"text":"對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢．決定．下次會議繼續進行施政方針及施政報告之質詢．討論事項．第一案決議定定期處理．其他事項．一、本市會議事務層照原編擬議程草案通過．二、主席宣告一項．宣讀完畢。"},{"start":5530.544,"end":5556.784,"text":"報告院會,針對第一會期第三次會議一事錄,並無委員或黨團提出錯誤或遺漏之處,作以下之決定。第一會期第三次會議一事錄確定。現在我們宣讀第二案。第二案本院委員林千琦的21人離聚、學校午餐及營養促進條例草案請水案、小休園會見、聯席委員會教育及文化委員會審查,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":5558.144,"end":5576.527,"text":"報告委員會有無異議,無異議,通過。繼續,下一案。第三案,本院委員林倩琦的21人離聚,文化資產保存法第6條及第98條條為疏散草案請審案。陳勛委員會見,你請會交教育及文化委員會審查。宣布完畢。無異議,通過,下一案。"},{"start":5577.216,"end":5605.135,"text":"第四案,本院委員徐宇珍等22人離聚,老人福利法增令第22條之一條文草案請水案,採訊委員會見,你請會交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。 宣傳完畢五議議通過下一案第五案,本院委員徐宇珍等22人離聚,就業保險法第11條條文修正草案請水案,採訊委員會見,你請會交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。 宣傳完畢五議議通過下一案"},{"start":5605.694,"end":5631.471,"text":"第六案,本院委員徐宇珍等二選人領去老年農民福利津貼專行條例第四條條維修正常案請水案。陳秀園會見,立即會交社會福利及物質環境經濟內政三委員會審查,宣讀外閉。無異議通過,下一案。第七案,本院委員徐宇珍等十七人領去臺灣內區道路地區人民關係條例第十七條條維修正常案請水案。陳秀園會見,立即會交內政委員會審查,宣讀外閉。"},{"start":5634.386,"end":5663.07,"text":"無異議通過下一案。第八案本院委員陳金輝等17人離聚總統副總統徐居邦免法第13條條維修政策案請誰案陳秀元會見立行院會長內政委會審查宣言完畢。無異議通過下一案。第九案本院委員劉許廷等18人離聚環境影響評估法第8條之一第9條及第12條條維修政策案請誰案陳秀元會見立行院會長社會福利及衛生環境委會審查宣言完畢。"},{"start":5664.108,"end":5689.651,"text":"無異議通過下議案。第10案本月委員劉許廷等17日離聚使用牌照稅法第7條談文修正草案請審議案。程式委員會見議請會交財政委員會審查。宣讀完畢。無異議通過下議案。第11案本月委員劉許廷等18日離聚不在即投票法草案請審議案。程式委員會見議請會交內政委員會審查。宣讀完畢。無異議通過下議案。"},{"start":5690.27,"end":5717.899,"text":"第12案本院委員復婚期等33人離聚,國家通訊宣佈委員會組織法第4條條文修正草案請審議案,財修委員會見,立行會交司法及法律交通兩委員會審查,宣言完畢。無異議通過下一案第13案本院委員復婚期等33人離聚,花東快速公路建設特別條例草案請審議案,財修委員會見,立行會交交通委員會審查,宣言完畢。無異議通過下一案"},{"start":5718.442,"end":5744.287,"text":"第14案本院委員復婚期等33人離聚全民健康保險法第10條條文修正草案請水案。陳秀元會見你請會加入社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。宣讀完畢五議通過下一案第15案本院委員徐曉新等16人離聚中華民國刑法第339條及第339條之4條文修正草案請水案。陳秀元會見你請會加入司法及法制委員會審查。宣讀完畢"},{"start":5745.373,"end":5749.096,"text":"五、二、通過下一案五、二、通過下一案五、二、通過下一案"},{"start":5774.966,"end":5777.367,"text":"五、一、通過下一案五、一、通過下一案五、一、通過下一案"},{"start":5804.124,"end":5827.922,"text":"第20案本院委員邱善軍的20人聯聚文明教育法第3條及第4條條文修正常情緒一案陳秀元會見立行會交教育及文化委員會審查。 宣讀完畢第21案本院委員副官企等52人聯聚立法院組織法第3條條文修正常情緒一案陳秀元會見立行會交司法及法律委員會審查。 宣讀完畢"},{"start":5828.871,"end":5856.77,"text":"無異議通過下一案。第二十二案本院委員副官期等五宣人聯聚立法院自宣行事法部分條文修正草原井水案陳秀揚會見李景輝交司法及法律委員會審查宣言完畢。無異議通過下一案第二十三案本院委員副官期等五宣人聯聚立法院自宣行事法第15條之一、第15條之二及第15條之四條文修正草原井水案陳秀揚會見李景輝交司法及法律委員會審查宣言完畢。"},{"start":5857.694,"end":5872.437,"text":"無異議通過下議案。）第二十四案本院委員副官級等50人聯聚立法院職權限制法不分條文修正草案請申案陳修揚會見理情委員會交付司法及法律委員會審查宣讀完畢。）無異議通過下議案。"},{"start":5872.981,"end":5887.716,"text":"第二十五案本院委員復婚期等五十二年連續中華民國刑法增令第五章之一章明,第141條之一及第141條之二條文草案請選一案。 前衆委員會見,立行會交司法及法治委員會審查。 宣傳完畢"},{"start":5888.766,"end":5891.448,"text":"五、一通過下一案五、一通過下一案五、一通過下一案"},{"start":5916.451,"end":5918.953,"text":"五一通過下議案五一通過下議案五一通過下議案"},{"start":5945.868,"end":5973.835,"text":"第三十案本院委員翁曉琳的16人聯聚立法院職權刑事法第15條之一、第15條之二及第15條之四條維修正常案請選一案。陳秀元會見立行會交司法及法律委員會審查。 宣讀完畢五議議通過下議案第三十一案本院委員翁曉琳的18人聯聚總統、副總統、學習法、民法部分條維修正常案請選一案。陳秀元會見立行會交內政委員會審查。 宣讀完畢五議議通過下議案"},{"start":5974.346,"end":5998.356,"text":"第三十二案本院委員翁曉琳等17人聯聚施民安全衛生管理法第22條條維修站草原侵水案財修委員會見立警會交生衛福利及衛生環境委員會審查。 宣讀完畢無異議通過下一案第三十三案本院委員徐曉琳等16人聯聚海岸局防法第13條條維修站草原侵水案財修委員會見立警會交內政委員會審查。 宣讀完畢"},{"start":5999.485,"end":6003.267,"text":"五、一、通過下一案五、一、通過下一案五、一、通過下一案"},{"start":6027.861,"end":6048.939,"text":"第三十六案,本院委員吳立華等16人聯聚,延伸動物保育法部分條文修正草案請水案,陳秀園會見,臨時委員會交經濟委員會審查,宣讀完畢。無異議通過下一案第三十七案,本院委員吳立華等16人聯聚,資商及取得原住民族或部落同意或參與條例草案請水案,陳秀園會見,臨時委員會交內政委員會審查,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6052.441,"end":6055.984,"text":"五、一、通過下一案五、一、通過下一案五、一、通過下一案"},{"start":6078.049,"end":6078.749,"text":"第40議案．第40議案．"},{"start":6099.261,"end":6126.533,"text":"第42案（行政院行為修正推廣貿易基金收支保管及運用辦法部分條文﹐財修委員會見臨行外交經濟委員會﹐宣讀完畢無異議通過下一案﹐第43案（行政院行從112年7月至12月﹐中央政府營業基金3億元以上及非營業特種基金1億元以上補充預算或先行辦理數額表﹐財修委員會見臨行外交經濟交通外交及國防交易及文化思維委員會﹐宣讀完畢"},{"start":6127.842,"end":6130.464,"text":"御異議通過下一案。御異議通過下一案"},{"start":6153.686,"end":6174.26,"text":"五、一、通過下一案。）第45案,行政院海外修正公清污染防水精心收拾保管及運用辦法部分條文,陳述委員會見臨時委員會交社會福祉及衛生環境委員會,宣讀外閉。五、一、通過下一案。）第46案,內政部函宋消防財團法人適用財團法人法第21條第2項第3環制一定金額,陳述委員會見臨時委員會交內政委員會,宣讀外閉。"},{"start":6179.127,"end":6180.629,"text":"無異議通過下一案。"},{"start":6198.083,"end":6217.999,"text":"無異議通過下議案。第四十八日．內政部還為本月修正入出國際移民法部份條文通過附帶決議解送移民署應訂定資料管理利用辦法及有關蒐集與五年資料相關解封條件書面報告陳秀遠會見例請回交內政委員會。 宣讀完畢。無異議通過下議案。"},{"start":6218.922,"end":6242.441,"text":"第49 海洋委員會行為指定從事由輸送行為之公司闖鎖名稱桌稱為從事由輸送行為之規模並修正廣告。財修委員會屆臨時會交內政委員會。 宣讀完畢五一議通過下一案。第五十二 內政部行為修正辦理政策性農業專案代管辦法部分條文及第24條附表22、附表23。財修委員會屆臨時會交經濟委員會。 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6247.728,"end":6250.471,"text":"五一通過下一案五一通過下一案"},{"start":6263.206,"end":6275.473,"text":"第52案 農業部委員會 行政院農業委員會 野生動物保育諮詢委員會 施政辦法 名稱修正為 農業部陸域野生動物保育諮詢委員會 施政辦法 並修正條文 陳書遠會見 理行會教經濟委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6279.358,"end":6281.119,"text":"無異議通過下一案無異議通過下一案"},{"start":6302.129,"end":6302.71,"text":"無異議通過下議案"},{"start":6317.029,"end":6317.67,"text":"五一通過下議案"},{"start":6336.038,"end":6346.09,"text":"第五十六案 金融金融管理委員會還未修正,也好賣禮購資產,客戶適用是金融商品及服務管理辦法第五條及第七條條文,財修委員會屆臨時會交財政委員會。 宣讀完畢無異議通過下一案"},{"start":6351.89,"end":6352.511,"text":"無異議通過下一案"},{"start":6369.909,"end":6397.564,"text":"第58日金融監督管領委員會還未修正,金融監督管領委員會銀行舉出規審第五條基地包條條文,採訪委員會見,立行會交司法及法律財政兩委員會,宣讀完畢五一通過下議案第59日教育部還未修正國民小學及國民中學常態編班級分組學習準則,採訪委員會見,立行會交教育及文化委員會,宣讀完畢五一通過下議案"},{"start":6398.1,"end":6420.845,"text":"第六十二（就一部海外修正職場實習縣市主管機關辦理特殊教育縣校評鑒辦法採修委員會見你請和教育界文化委員會宣讀完畢。無異議通過下一案。第六十一案（就一部海外修正特殊教育學生調整入學年齡及修業連線實施辦法採修委員會見你請和教育界文化委員會宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6422.219,"end":6449.986,"text":"無異議通過下一案．第62案．交通部海維修陣航空氣登機規則第12條之一．第34條條文及第7條附件二．財修委員會見立行會交交通委員會．宣讀完畢無異議通過下一案．第63案．司法院海維修陣法院庭長臨時辦法提包條第9條及第10條條文．財修委員會見立行會交司法及法制委員會．宣讀完畢無異議通過下一案．"},{"start":6450.626,"end":6477.674,"text":"第64案,法務部衛修正法務部處規審第7條條文,財修委員會見立行和交司法及法治委員會,宣讀完畢。無異議,通過下一案。第65案,衛生福利部韓送公共113年,全民健康保險保險對象住院因自行負擔費用之最高金額並自113年1月1日申訴,財修委員會見立行和交社會福利及衛生環境委員會,宣讀完畢。無異議,通過下一案。"},{"start":6478.237,"end":6478.998,"text":"第66案．第67案．無異議通過下案．"},{"start":6506.786,"end":6536.13,"text":"第60方案 衛生福利部海外修正中華民國輸送規定F-01、F-02貨品分類表及輸送規定508貨品分類號列表並自112年12月15日生效。 財修委員會見。 立行外交、社會福利及衛生環境委員會。 宣讀完畢第69案 環境部海總本院制定環境部組織法通過負擔決議。 第一項是辦理進行。 財修委員會見。 立行外交、司法及法制、社會福利及衛生環境委員會。 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6538.709,"end":6542.13,"text":"五一通過下一案五一通過下一案五一通過下一案"},{"start":6567.469,"end":6568.249,"text":"無異議通過下一案。"},{"start":6584.517,"end":6612.521,"text":"第73案,環境部行為廢止排放管道中二氧化硫自動檢測方法,非分散性核瘟外光法、紫外光法、螢光法,案案一二一四一三點七五C,陳秀妍會見理情會交,社會福利及優先環境委員會。 宣讀完畢五一通過下一案第74案,環境部行為廢止,奚落果菜市場電動蔬果運輸車補助辦法,陳秀妍會見理情會交,社會福利及優先環境委員會。 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6613.567,"end":6616.49,"text":"五、一、通過下一案五、一、通過下一案"},{"start":6632.386,"end":6660.182,"text":"第七十六案 環境暮海送盤放管道中隱形安能會發行有機物檢測方法。 跡象採取局部依法NIEA-764.70B。 財修委員會見理事委員會交 社會福利及衛生環境委員會。 宣讀完畢無異議通過下一案 第七十七案 環境暮海送機動車輛行駛噪音量測方法影像輔助法NIEA-P211.81B。 財修委員會見理事委會交 社會福利及衛生環境委員會。 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6661.567,"end":6665.189,"text":"無異議通過下議案。．第70班案．無異議通過下議案。"},{"start":6678.291,"end":6691.456,"text":"第七审 環境衛生中介空氣中鼻息腥胺等有機化合物檢測方法一項採信率聯繫植物儀法NIA-813.12b求修委員會見理行委員會教育社會福利及衛生環境委員會 宣布完畢"},{"start":6692.615,"end":6703.979,"text":"無異議通過下議案。第82 環境部行為廢止周介空其中比錫新安的有機化合物檢測方法 意向詮釋串聯式植物儀法 傳訊委員會 進行回交 社會福利事務 向環境委員會 宣告完畢"},{"start":6709.249,"end":6735.015,"text":"無異議通過下一案。第八十議案環境環境委員會實施解量及管理法施行細則名稱修正為《氣候變遷因應法》施行細則並修正條文。陳修緣會見你請會交社會福利及衛生環境委員會。宣討完畢。報告院會本案國民黨團提議改交審查因此我們交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。無異議通過繼續下一案"},{"start":6737.267,"end":6762.466,"text":"第82案（環境牧海維修生土壤及地下水污染轉資費收費頒發部分條文及第三條附表一）前庶委員會見你請回家翁省衛福地區衛生環境委員會）宣讀完畢五一通過下一案）第83案（環境牧海維修生人口分余備和人工作許可及管理頒發前庶委員會見你請回家翁省衛福地區衛生環境委員會）宣讀完畢五一通過下一案）"},{"start":6763.291,"end":6776.368,"text":"第84案 勞動部含送地方主管警官受理工作場所性騷擾事件申訴處理辦法。 採取委員會見,也請會交社會福利及外相環境委員會。 宣讀完畢。 無異議通過下一案。"},{"start":6776.943,"end":6790.971,"text":"第85案 勞動部喊為修正外國人受聘僱 重申就業服務法 第46條 第一項提搬款 制定許一款規定工作之 轉換僱主或工作程序準則 第29條 第36條條文 及第13條附表1 第22條附表2 採訊委員會見 立請回交 社會福利及歐洲環境委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6797.932,"end":6826.906,"text":"五、一通過下一案。）第八十六案,外交部還從中華民國臺灣政府與瓜地馬拉共和國政府推動瓜地馬拉防災預警系統計劃合作協定中心委員本。陳修援會見,議請外交部加記國防委員會。 宣讀完畢。五、一通過下一案。）第八十七案,外交部還從中華民國臺灣政府與瓜地馬拉共和國政府基本合作協定中心委員本。陳修援會見,議請外交部加記國防委員會。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6828.359,"end":6832.042,"text":"五一通過下議案五一通過下議案五一通過下議案"},{"start":6851.69,"end":6875.041,"text":"報告委員會本案國民黨黨團提議改交審查,因此本案交外交及國防委員會審查。無異議通過下一案。第92國防部海外修正國防事務財團法人率領選考期間入辦法定時調查文,採訪委員會前您請回答國家及國防委員會。 宣傳完畢。無異議通過下一案。"},{"start":6875.728,"end":6888.582,"text":"第九十一案,強污委員會,含為112年度永久居留權取得困難之國家或地區及其居留資格認定期準施行期間,已於中華民國112年12月31日屆滿單元廢止。 強污委員會屆臨行會長或交集國防委員會。 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6894.144,"end":6898.605,"text":"無異議通過報告委員會第92案至第230案請依序宣讀其中第149案、158案、159案、161案、162案、177案、178案、179案、181案臺灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查宣讀後以上"},{"start":6922.185,"end":6934.183,"text":"提案均交相關委員會審查其餘的議案均照程序委員會意見通過請問院會有無異議無異議後宣讀後通過請宣讀"},{"start":6935.25,"end":6959.662,"text":"第九二案﹚第11三案﹚外交部﹚第11四案﹚第127案﹚國軍退出官兵輔導委員會﹚第12班案﹚第136案﹚國家安全局﹚第137案﹚第147案﹚審計部﹚第14班案﹚第192案﹚財政部﹚第193案﹚第213案﹚勞動部﹚第214案﹚第230案﹚衛生福利部﹚韓文113年度中央政府總運算等預算決議﹚分別檢送相關報告﹚宣讀完畢"},{"start":6965.686,"end":6993.896,"text":"發言委員會第231案及質詢事項請一併宣讀。宣讀後,第231案准予被查。請宣讀。第231案為本院委員吳宗憲選發會當選第11屆第一會期程序委員會召集委員。質詢事項,本院委員質詢部分,本院羅委員志強等向行政院提出質詢公報件。宣讀完畢。五一通過。"},{"start":6994.983,"end":7000.906,"text":"報告委員會現在對行政院院長施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。現在我們請黃委員建豪質詢。"},{"start":7030.097,"end":7035.859,"text":"好,謝謝主席。那今天先請我們院長備詢。麻煩請陳院長備詢。黃委員早,國慶禮當選立委。謝謝院長,院長早。院長今天是這個國際三八婦女節,所以本席今天也贈送了在場的女性閣員一束花。"},{"start":7054.916,"end":7079.343,"text":"並祝賀所有女性的國人、婦女同胞、婦女節快樂當然今天也是這個《性平三法》修正後全面施行的上路的首日昨天行政院在推行修法上也付出許多努力我昨天看到這個院長的一些影片所以待會院長我現在也要送你一束花感謝行政團隊在這個期間對於《性平三法》的付出"},{"start":7081.107,"end":7088.383,"text":"這件事也要謝謝大院,大院很快的通過了《性平商法》,所以立法行政合作可以達到很好的目標。謝謝。"},{"start":7100.697,"end":7130.457,"text":"我想這個回到主題今天還是談到今天竟然是信憑三法第一天上路首日所以談到信憑行政院當然是引導各部會在擬定政策計劃跟措施的時候都要來融入所謂的信憑的觀點那也要定期的進行相關的輔導考核那包含院長我也是你的這個粉絲我昨天看到你的網路平台上面有發布一支影片也提到說在信憑這議題上面公部門也應該作為表率"},{"start":7130.657,"end":7131.838,"text":"在32個受評鑑的相關單位裡面各部會裡面有11個單位"},{"start":7160.333,"end":7173.439,"text":"議員："},{"start":7173.985,"end":7196.14,"text":"昨天影片上面真的提到說希望說我們公部門作為這個信憑三法的表率那院長看到這樣子的成績你有什麼樣的想法我想公部門確實應該作為民間機構的這個表率那這一個不列等的這一些我想我們要來了解它的原因但是我們一定會努力的"},{"start":7196.98,"end":7214.807,"text":"來做好這個信評的這樣的業務,各個部會都要努力來加強。即使是優等以上的,我們也要再繼續精進。好,院長謝謝。我們期待信評三法上路之後,本來這些不列等的或是本來連續兩年一等的,明年再評鑑的時候,是不是能夠有個明確的改善?院長你們做得到嗎?"},{"start":7215.387,"end":7231.885,"text":"好,我們會來督促各個部會來加緊努力因為這是全國都要做的而且更重要的確實空部門應該作為事務部門的表率院長謝謝接下來我要跟院長來探討我們台中的捷運建設"},{"start":7236.909,"end":7261.196,"text":"我們作為臺中選出來的區議員我們特別地重視臺中的捷運建設整體來說我們當然希望臺中的捷運能夠加速合併增加補助我們看到臺中捷運現在最重要的工程是藍線2014年第一次來送出這個可行性報告到今年1月終於來合併所謂的綜合股票報告中間歷時了將近10年的時間"},{"start":7263.857,"end":7291.177,"text":"院長跟部長在這邊,我要在這邊先簡單的跟你們拜託,從書面審查,從第一階段的所謂的可敵性規劃到綜合規劃報告的核定,這個叫做書面審查。光是書面、文書來來往往,就將近10年的時間。 合定之後,院長之前在受訪的時候也講過,因為中央地方一起合作,這條捷運動工還要再10年。"},{"start":7292.037,"end":7309.507,"text":"所以我們當然希望在10年真的等太久因為光前面的文書作業就將近了10年後面如果再蓋10年真的是10年後我想很多這個民眾也等都等不到他等了一輩子終於等到核定但是他還要再等10年如果中間又經歷過一些"},{"start":7310.708,"end":7335.418,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":7335.578,"end":7337.379,"text":"事實上交通部送來是去年的4月18日"},{"start":7362.197,"end":7380.784,"text":"您這邊也有嘛,所以我們...對啊,就經歷286天啊。對對,但是後來行政院來的時候,我們利用最短的時間內,中間有一些些疑慮啦,那也透過交通部跟市政府這邊有做了溝通討論,那釐清以後就很快的核定。好,那我就這樣講嘛,希望這個釐清的速度會快一點。"},{"start":7381.744,"end":7405.272,"text":"因為既然交通部審查通過,我相信部長很專業,審查委員也專業,大家都很專業,送到行政院,如果經費上沒有太大問題,錢也夠,就趕快同意,趕快幹。我們請部長簡單再說一下。我想國會是在審查也提供一個很好的提醒,就是我們煞路鐵路高架跟他的關係。沒關係這段細節我知道,我們就不用再討論了。我們只拜託未來早點討論。專業考量。對,溝通了,市政府也"},{"start":7409.773,"end":7412.375,"text":"臺中捷運看起來地方的負擔比例比較高,工程時間比較長。"},{"start":7440.094,"end":7459.394,"text":"為什麼會這樣講?因為在交通部的這個業務報告裡面當初那一份紙本的文件裡面有12加6條,12加6條全國各地的捷運建設陸陸續續都在興建。那本席也看了那份報告,去多數的捷運的速度興建的期程相對的都相對比較快一點。"},{"start":7459.955,"end":7478.608,"text":"那台中的這個結餘地方負擔比例比較高工程時間比較拉長當然這是牽涉到你們說這是各縣市的政府政府的財政財力不同所以有這樣的這個轉變但是我們來看到這個下一頁我們看到各地方政府的自償率跟非自償經費的補助比例表啊"},{"start":7480.353,"end":7492.656,"text":"一級的財政是台北市二級的話台中跟新北桃園、台南、高雄屬於三級在這一份的財力分配表上面我們會覺得一件事情院長"},{"start":7494.224,"end":7520.317,"text":"好像財政能力越好的地方政府得到的補助反而會比較少這會變相的有一種鼓勵大家財政上不用太積極反正中央會補助而如果積極的改善了我們地方的財政但是因為你相對經濟比較寬裕所以說中央在軌道建設上面在捷運建設上面的補助比較少那當然這個財政劃分的部分是依據這個"},{"start":7522.478,"end":7544.735,"text":"地方制度法跟這個財政收支劃分法那這個財政收支劃分法跟地方制度法有一個落差地方制度法從這個民國88年以後到現在激勵了14次的修正14次那財政收支劃分法從民國88年到現在一次都沒有修所以依據這兩套法律定出來的分期的標準"},{"start":7546.067,"end":7568.938,"text":"一句這樣法律定出來的分級標準一個法律已經變了14次了一個法律都還沒有修過今天部長我今天沒有要討論這個財政收支劃分法的這個整體的規劃這個以後我們再來跟討論我們今天先針對捷運的部分但是我要拜託院長是不是可能往這個方向來修正同不同意財政收支劃分法跟這個分級制度應該要有所調整"},{"start":7569.798,"end":7574.18,"text":"我想財政化文化剛才您也提過那這個確實有討論過好多次但是都沒有通過那這裡面的原因很多那最近財政部已經訂出六項原則我想我們在做同盤的考慮"},{"start":7589.989,"end":7609.019,"text":"不過在這裏我也要跟委員做報告,那個自償率的部分呢就是當時都已經是這樣定下來,那剛才你前一個表裏面這個臺中的負擔的比例比較高,實際上是自償的部分你也給他放在裏面,那自償本來就是這一個地方政府他會從這裏"},{"start":7619.251,"end":7628.743,"text":"議員長,當然沒問題啦,如果說市場比例比較高,當然地方政府會需要負擔一些,但是我們提到是工程面,在第一階段工程面,像這個新建費我簡單說明一下,"},{"start":7630.064,"end":7651.23,"text":"臺中市我當過議員我們一年的財政的這個預算大概兩千億但是該條藍線當然他是分T4但是這占臺中市政府的這個這個比例蠻高的一年預算才兩千億該條捷運臺中市就要負擔一千多億我想這個對臺中市的財政的確是會有一定很大程度的困難但這個對中央政府啊我想這不是"},{"start":7651.77,"end":7651.81,"text":"主席總書長"},{"start":7676.548,"end":7701.958,"text":"有給他3億元的獎勵金,分3億,第一年1.5,第二年1億,第三年0.5,而且我們已經在撥款中,謝謝。好啦,主席長,謝謝啦,沒關係啦,3億實在是不太夠啦,我還是希望我們針對捷運建設本身,我們還是希望經費上能夠有比較明顯的這個增加來補貼,來補助這地方財政,我想台中的人口非常非常的多啊。"},{"start":7702.478,"end":7722.588,"text":"對,因為報告委員如果有自償的部分,他就將來會有收入嘛,所以我們是為什麼鼓勵地方政府都開發自償的部分,所以在自償如果增加的話,我們補助也會提高,您剛剛有一個表,第二個表那邊就可以看到,所以我們也是鼓勵自償,那因為台中他的自償事實上他"},{"start":7723.575,"end":7727.357,"text":"那接下來我們看到這個局限我想這個台中在下禮拜一要來巨蛋要來正式的來準備動工興建台中3月11即將動工那這個捷運局限2023年的9月14號也送進了這個可能性研究來報部審查"},{"start":7753.363,"end":7772.878,"text":"我們想問的是院長還有我們部長如果3月11要動工那巨蛋蓋也需要時間那這個臺中捷運局線它也會經過相關的這個站體也會經過這個地方所以我們有沒有可能期待的是未來臺中在捷運局線上面它的審查能夠加速不要再像是我剛提到的當藍線送進去2014年出來2024年了"},{"start":7786.285,"end":7805.696,"text":"我講可行性研究的過程如果路線規劃的合適那交通部當然會審查審查會比較快那如果審查有一些意見那當然會回去到市政府市政府也要趕快回覆所以這個是我你剛才講的很好就中央地方一定都要加緊程序"},{"start":7806.116,"end":7820.264,"text":"如果地方有稍微嚴苛也會可行性也會比較長那這個部分我請交通部來說簡單說一下我們事實上9月14號我們在今年的1月23號已經把意見給台中市政府"},{"start":7821.204,"end":7836.956,"text":"主要的意見就是說橘線跟藍線是共用系統,然後共用龍井機場,它的購軌有一點問題,怎麼轉到藍線這個部分,所以我們從技術上給他一些建議,那他送上來我們就按照行政程序趕快來審查。"},{"start":7837.717,"end":7855.529,"text":"所以現在委員你可以請地方政府也趕快研議我們都會請啊,雙方那邊要研議加速,這邊也要拜託進入實質審查文件往返少一點,大家趕快見面談一談,把有爭議的地方趕快談完,有問題的地方"},{"start":7856.67,"end":7885.828,"text":"技術面、工程面兩邊都有專家現場如果能夠把台灣趕快解決就不用公文往返這麼多事因為想過去不管是捷運藍線也好還是捷運綠線也好都是因為書面的往返公文上面有一些這個延宕所以大家各自有各自的意見各自有各自的專業當然這過去當作經驗未來我們希望這種往返公文往返的程序能夠少一點這也是民眾對於行政院對政府部門的期待對政府部門的效率的期待"},{"start":7886.528,"end":7902.68,"text":"因為這個臺灣的公共工程為什麼做一條捷運或是做一條公共工程要拖這麼久就像我剛剛提到的如果光書面審查都要過10年我想這工程它是有硬體的限制沒辦法它可能真的要花點時間但是書面審查上面文字的來往"},{"start":7903.08,"end":7924.531,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":7925,"end":7950.594,"text":"在這個媒體上面有兩種不同的說法一種是說這個捷運綠線延伸到這個大坑需要同步完成張東的擴大都市計畫的核定但後來又講說核定可行性研究後未來就是現在啦現在綜合規劃不會受到彰化段的影響所以如果審定就可以進行下一階段我想要在這個大院裡面來確定一件事情到底"},{"start":7952.135,"end":7962.723,"text":"結綠線延伸大坑的部分有沒有要配合延伸到彰化的那個彰多都市企劃區還是以及兩段可以分開的同步的進行"},{"start":7964.255,"end":7964.355,"text":"臺中市長"},{"start":7993.174,"end":8019.439,"text":"規劃的情況,預計的情形是你上面的那一個。所以要等?對,基本上我們也希望彰化縣政府能夠加緊腳步,因為在整個綜合規劃的過程當中,如果前面那一段做好了,後面那一段沒有的話,那整個的介紹的經費等等規劃的情況,還有怎麼樣劃分那一個兩邊的捷運的經費,"},{"start":8024.319,"end":8042.143,"text":"院長我確認一下你的說法,所以你意思是說在現階段以捷運綠線延伸到大坑和彰化這兩段,他是要必須等待彰東都市計畫完成之後我才能夠進行綜合規劃嗎?不是不是,綜合規劃核定前要做完,綜合規劃就是現在大家都在做的,差不多就一年嘛。"},{"start":8045.624,"end":8073.433,"text":"發言委員就是原則上因為可行性分析是整段合併所以原則上應該是整段的綜合規劃送上來我們來審但是也不排除必要的時候但是這個還是要審查是否可以把它切成兩段來做綜合審查在時程上面我們當然希望盡快的來審查這個相關的所以說我們也要來拜託總統管政部要考慮你去拜託我沒辦法再來"},{"start":8075.073,"end":8098.482,"text":"來我們看到為什麼今天特別把捷運放在我這個重要的這個職區裡面我給大家看一下這個人口結構我想院長你根據你的這個財產申報你的這個住家應該是位在所謂中正區那在全台灣的人口比例上面我排除了前20名人口密度高的這個地區以行政區來劃分前20名不管在新北在高雄在台北"},{"start":8100.006,"end":8111.572,"text":"這些都會區都是人口密集區。臺中在全國前20名人口密集區也佔了3個。但是什麼特點呢?就是前20名的其他城市它都有捷運建設。"},{"start":8112.674,"end":8112.874,"text":"拜託院長"},{"start":8135.97,"end":8151.669,"text":"未來在這個施政上面雖然你一直強調說你5月19就要離職啦但是我想希望這個政策如同你講的行政院的工作不會停下來一棒接一棒所以未來行政院的政策上面在捷運政策上是不是能夠多照顧我們台中市不管經費上也好"},{"start":8152.09,"end":8153.511,"text":"我們落後很多啦,所以拜託好不好。"},{"start":8182.161,"end":8208.468,"text":"接下來有一個實事題要來請教一下我們院長這個現在我們這個健保費對不起不是健保費醫療的光耗費要漲電費要漲那我想三月的CPI指數也不是很好看那我想預計下週也要來召開所謂的物價的會議我想問一下院長會不會在520之前把該漲的全部漲一漲或者是院長能不能跟民眾跟國人來報告"},{"start":8209.628,"end":8222.84,"text":"到底從現在開始到520之前還有什麼要漲要不要一次預告完讓這個市場上預期心理不要一直今天說要漲電價我先調一次改天說要漲掛號費我再調一次後天又說要漲別的價錢再調一次"},{"start":8226.206,"end":8231.349,"text":"五五零之前該漲會全部把它漲完那五五零之前還有什麼要漲?"},{"start":8231.349,"end":8255.183,"text":"院長可以跟這邊大家報告一下我想這個括號會說是要漲不完全正確啦實際上這個部分正確啦因為衛福部他只是把上限拿開然後呢地方政府地方衛生局不必要做這個審查報備的工作但是呢現在有很多的五大的這個醫院的"},{"start":8255.503,"end":8275.435,"text":"應該"},{"start":8275.816,"end":8289.126,"text":"不會吧?應該不會還是不會?你講大宗物資在漲齁?大宗物資在漲,對啊。大宗物資跟著電價可能要漲,所以期待。所以我在問說會漲什麼?是不是一次?"},{"start":8290.373,"end":8317.271,"text":"先預告清楚,市場上也不會有這麼事情的外販運行。現在國際間大宗物資是在往下的,是在往下,所以國內不會漲。確定喔?確定確定,這是黃小玉、黃鄧小麥。主委長謝謝齁,謝謝承諾。所以520之前不會漲了齁?所以我剛才才說大宗物資好像不是這樣啦。好沒關係,院長這個我們數字我們再確認一下,但是我們要得到你一個確認是說520之前是不是不會再漲?"},{"start":8318.452,"end":8336.489,"text":"我想520之前電費的這一個部分確實需要經過...現在我就講除了電費跟像這個公安費即將解封之外嘛,現在民眾已經知道這兩件事情了,那還有什麼?還是沒有了?對,那如果是公營事業的這個部分,沒有。我不能夠保證私營的..."},{"start":8338.362,"end":8366.121,"text":"像比如說外食費會不會漲這個我想我們不能夠保證但是以這個我們的公營事業部分應該電費是我們現在在考慮的唯一的項目。好院長謝謝那接下來要跟他討論很多民眾有關心的我們社會住宅的政策問題這個我想跟院長確認一個概念先進國家的低標社會住宅佔住宅整體存量應該達到15%這句話你認同嗎?"},{"start":8369.322,"end":8392.889,"text":"我想要看那個國家的土地的價格還有房屋的價格。 那我國,我國就好,不管別人,我國。 我想以5%是應該算是基本啦。 好,那我們看到現在的這個存量,現在全國社會住宅新辦的進度,這是從來自於內政部股東產資訊中心的統計,"},{"start":8394.249,"end":8417.907,"text":"實際上現在可以入住的是大概3萬戶左右,29182,大約3萬戶左右,所以距離我想至於5%還是有一段這個落差。那當然過去的事情一樣,我的立場是過去的事情就算了,我們就是過去大家努力,但未來要繼續來合作。那我想從這個數字上來看,地方政府非常努力,中央政府有一點努力,但是還有一件事情,"},{"start":8418.991,"end":8424.985,"text":"除了中央政府跟地方政府來興建社會住宅之外有一條路徑我不知道各位還記不記得"},{"start":8426.94,"end":8455.784,"text":"住宅法是在民國100年施行公佈其中有一條叫做民間興建社會住宅我想請問一下院長你知不知道說這13年了民間興建社會住宅的數量有多少?興建這個確實現在有民間興建社宅的這個部分那我們請內政部林部長來回答已經有一些很好的案例我有說興建喔我是在到處待管喔那個我跟委員來回覆民間興拜社會住宅的部分"},{"start":8456.603,"end":8482.555,"text":"目前是沒有了。不過我要講的是說社會住宅其實最重要的一個困難是在土地的取得。目前我們政府在興建社會住宅的時候現在其實都是用公家的一個土地所以土地的取得是一個先決的一個條件。這一部分我們在去年的時候也跟比如說包括"},{"start":8483.395,"end":8484.319,"text":"有一些宗教團體或社會福利團體"},{"start":8488.424,"end":8513.266,"text":"我們現在正主動積極的跟他們做聯繫,因為這個對象必須處理。謝謝,這些新聞上我也看到了,你們非常努力,我知道。我知道提醒說,除了公部門,不管中央地方之外,還有一條路徑叫做民間新辦。那怎麼樣鼓勵民間新辦,在各位在這個法令裡面,其中有一條我提醒大家,還有一個叫行政法人新辦社會住宅使用非公共土地,它可以獲得1.5倍容體獎勵,這或許就是一個方向。"},{"start":8515.888,"end":8517.049,"text":"為什麼民間不願意改?"},{"start":8517.049,"end":8542.102,"text":"我想最明確的原因是他沒有誘因。沒有誘因我講坦白的公部門當然不用談論利潤不用談論這個利益的問題但是你要鼓勵民間興辦社會住宅住宅法裡面有這個相關的規定那要怎麼樣鼓勵民間興辦社會住宅如果今天行政法人有這樣子的榮基獎勵民間興辦你要給他多少的榮基獎勵你要給他多少的誘因我覺得這是接下來施政上面"},{"start":8542.602,"end":8543.182,"text":"這個當然是一條路徑,不過剛剛提到就是說"},{"start":8566.531,"end":8568.412,"text":"政府都有在研議考慮相關土地資源的一個合理使用。"},{"start":8592.145,"end":8608.72,"text":"好部長謝謝院長接下來還有別的題目時間不多了接下來這個想問一下院長還有跟我們在座的閣員有聽過這個故宮一百家的可以舉手一下嗎好都沒有"},{"start":8615.541,"end":8618.425,"text":"院長請問一下你有沒有帶手機在身上嗎?"},{"start":8618.425,"end":8630.841,"text":"有。 院長我麻煩你可不可以搜尋一下Google100加這個幾個字。 這個我搜尋一下。 你搜尋看看。 那你搜尋的結果跟我的搜尋結果有沒有一樣?"},{"start":8649.637,"end":8672.246,"text":"收訊的結果是不是都是北京故宮為主?顯示故宮一百家是故宮一百是中國大陸G2003以後錄製的。好,院長謝謝,院長沒關係。我要提出來的原因是什麼?因為這個故宮一百家是明年我們台北故宮一百週年的活動系列活動的這個名稱。"},{"start":8673.755,"end":8699.776,"text":"所以今年已經2024年了明年台北故宮要滿100週年但是如果一個100週年的大活動來講理論上來講現在的行銷宣傳應該開始了但是這個Google100家也是官方的名稱但到目前為止如果搜尋如果外國觀光客想要訂機票想要來了解台北故宮100週年的系列活動他用Google搜尋是找不到相關的紀錄的"},{"start":8701.861,"end":8725.96,"text":"我們提到我們來跟這個故宮也要顧相關的資料回覆我們裡面也提到說明年一百週年包含說要展出什麼宋版畫西文雅集那這個都是之前就展過了那也提到說要去這個法國跟捷克來參展但是我昨天看這個故宮昨天在質詢的時候抱歉"},{"start":8726.96,"end":8748.943,"text":"昨天故宮在質詢的時候提到說這個去捷克參展是因為疫情的關係所以延後,那表示你等於在另外一個場合的回答,意思就是說這個跟100週年其實沒有明確的相關性。那故宮100週年理論上我們是應該吸引國人之外各國觀光客能夠來故宮來看所謂的故宮100年,有什麼樣的特展也好,有什麼樣的展品也好。"},{"start":8749.423,"end":8762.858,"text":"但是我們卻把這個所謂的去法國參展去捷克參展當成故宮100周年的這個系列活動之一。那就讓人家開玩笑講說那是不是故宮要鼓勵大家法捷首選行程保覽故宮百年院。"},{"start":8764.216,"end":8792.866,"text":"我想不是這樣。我想故宮跟世界上大的這些展示機構來合作實際上相當重要。比如說我們到日本去展示相關的故宮的這個古物以後,哇!很多的日客就會來到台灣。那到法國展出的時候也是一樣,因為我就有朋友從日本跟法國來。我想這也是其中的一部分,但是需要更大的加強。我想要強調的是例行性的去國外參展,我們非常支持。"},{"start":8793.286,"end":8811.792,"text":"但是到底故宮100週年的展覽,就像我剛剛提到的,昨天我們故宮在答詢的時候提到這個節課其實不是針對100啊,它是剛好明年100年。所以我希望在規劃100週年的時候能夠更細緻一點,包含說我們的參展觀光人數啊,最高峰的時候有達到529萬人。"},{"start":8814.214,"end":8832.35,"text":"去年是150多萬人,那你希望明年能夠達到250萬的觀光人口,來院人口,所以等於今年跟去年你要增加100萬,那這100萬到底哪來?我想這是非常嚴肅的話題,我們希望故宮100周年能夠把它辦好,可以嗎?"},{"start":8833.682,"end":8858.384,"text":"報告委員,我可以回答。報告委員,故宮100的話基本上是我在去年1月上任之後我開始規劃的。那這個部分的話就從管事、大司機。跟黃委員報告,因為時間關係可不可以請故宮博物院送相關書面資料給您好嗎?"},{"start":8859.892,"end":8863.274,"text":"非常感謝黃委員建豪的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的答詢。接下來我們請登記第47號,沈委員發會質詢。"},{"start":8889.295,"end":8917.815,"text":"好,院長我們請,是不是請這個陳院長麻煩再請陳院長備選首編早安陳院長早安齁這個我想齁今天早上齁我們這個台灣台股開盤過兩萬點是這是一個真的這是一個里程碑啦齁對台灣的股市來講是一個里程碑啦齁我想這個也是也這個"},{"start":8919.565,"end":8947.503,"text":"我們從過去在馬英九總統時代就喊股市2萬點喊到現在我們到今天早上股市開盤終於破2萬點我們蔡總統從上任的時候股市8000點到今天能夠到開盤到2萬點當然對我們的股市來講當然是一個好消息在這個時候是不是院長對於這個"},{"start":8949.124,"end":8954.547,"text":"委員您講得很對,實際上大家都在講股市是一個國家經濟最好的櫥窗所以我們現在股市進入了2萬點,確實在這8年來臺灣雖然面臨了很多的挑戰可是在COVID-19的時間因為我們2300萬人民大家很努力"},{"start":8974.238,"end":9000.72,"text":"在政府的領導下做了很好的防疫的工作那一段時間我們的經濟既然是逆勢成長所以也使得台灣的經濟相當的不錯雖然去年有因為國際的趨勢的關係有稍微下降但是整體我們GDP都有大幅的成長而且更重要的稅入稅出盈餘也很多那也是我們全民大家的努力希望未來中央跟地方政府一起努力還有"},{"start":9001.801,"end":9026.979,"text":"我們公部門跟私部門一起努力讓臺灣的經濟越來越好。謝謝院長當然我們做一個這個執政團隊我們在這個現在目前這樣子的股市榮景之下我們還是要更加的去注意這個經濟成長的成果能夠讓這個這個全民大家能夠共享能夠讓這樣子的這個所得分配能夠能夠這個"},{"start":9029.349,"end":9049.441,"text":"注意這個抑制這個通貨膨脹跟這個評議物價的相關問題對,我們全力以赴但是這整個我想我所關注的在這個整個台灣股市的這個過程中比較關注的是說這個有關於外資的部分外資這個我這邊有做一個統計我們外資外資的這個淨匯入"},{"start":9051.147,"end":9077.707,"text":"事實上從我這邊統計從2017年到去年到去到到甚至到今年的1月到今年的1月底除了這個這個2022年因為疫情開始的時候我們在這個這個外資持有這個股票的這個市值總市值有那個比例上面有有所降低的絕對只是一直一直提高了從86從86億美元到去年已經到294294億美元了這樣子成長了"},{"start":9081.394,"end":9108.841,"text":"我們這個2022年之後也一直成長到今年1月已經將近快要回復到快要4成的比例了這個部分是是這個對台灣這個經濟來講這個外資事實上是看好台灣的經濟是看好台灣的經濟那我們這個台灣公司的這個這個今年其實在台灣這個亞洲公司治理協會這個ACGA的部分他評比台灣的這個公司治理能力"},{"start":9109.488,"end":9131.75,"text":"我們臺灣今年也在越居到第三名就是跟新加坡並列第三名這僅次於這個澳洲跟日本那這個這個對我們來講我們要如何政府要如何在這樣的情況之下更進一步擴大吸引外資更大吸引更更更擴大吸引外國資金這是我所關注的部分尤其是我們這個"},{"start":9133.789,"end":9149.146,"text":"我們黃竺偉現在正好在臺上黃竺偉在今年的這個團拜的時候提到說這個新春團拜的時候提到說在這個領域你要跑得比別人快你用那個愛麗絲夢遊仙境來講說要跑得比別人快快兩三倍才能超前別人"},{"start":9150.327,"end":9179.109,"text":"你在那時候提出的這個五個發展的方向你特別提到就是說邁向國際推展台灣資本市場的成果重點是要接近主要國家增加跟外國資本市場的連結接近主要國家這個就是我今天大概要關注的焦點在接近主要國家的部分我想是不是請黃主委大概有什麼樣的接近主要國家的想法"},{"start":9182.551,"end":9209.565,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我想大家都希望臺灣在資產管理上面在區域上有一席之地那所以過去這四年其實我們也在高端資產方面有一些成長現在銀行累計資產規模大概在9000億左右那我們現在因為賴副總統他在競選政見中有提到亞洲資產管理中心的概念所以在1月13號之後我有交代同仁"},{"start":9210.866,"end":9232.649,"text":"從他的政見上面要積極去努力尤其是接近新加坡或是日本或是中東他一些資產管理中心的一些做法我們這個這個賴清德副總統他在政見裡面有提到說希望讓臺灣成為亞洲的資產管理中心資產管理中心那我就也提到接近主要國家主委也提到新加坡跟日本那我這裡"},{"start":9233.621,"end":9256.913,"text":"特地就我們日本我看到這個日本這幾年來他們在於怎麼樣引進外資活化國內的資產增加這個經濟成長的動能的部分他們所做的做的一些方式我覺得頗值得借鏡在這裡也特別跟院長跟這個主委來分享這個日本他們這個金融廳他們有一個他們有一個上位的岸田首相提出這個上位的"},{"start":9257.892,"end":9283.865,"text":"計劃是叫做新形式的資本主義他所提出來他有一個上位的計劃叫做資產運用立國實現計劃在這個資產運用立國實現計劃之下他大概整個最重要的他有很多種很多的做法那比較主要的跟我們這邊差別就是我們可以接近的包括他們有一個設置的一個次官級就是次長級的一個叫做金融國際審議官"},{"start":9286.465,"end":9313.434,"text":"設立一個金融國際審議官之後在這個金融國際審議官他來成立一個行政法人叫做日本金融的日本金融廳的一個國際金融中心在這個金融廳下面在設這個一個金融市場准入辦公室一個financial market entrance office他就是讓專門在外資要進入的時候進入金融市場的時候他的一個一個核准的一個辦公室那這個辦公室呢"},{"start":9314.363,"end":9340.869,"text":"他的有很多的作為主要大概在我整個把它整理大概就是最重要的一個就是一條龍單一窗口所有外資要進入日本他就單一窗口他不必跑很多的這個單位他就單一窗口另外一個跟台灣最大的差別是他們可以全英文他所有的公文申請的公文所有的流程他所有的都全英文"},{"start":9341.841,"end":9370.077,"text":"由我們政府來處理這個全英文的公文,不用他們外資要來這個日本之後,他們還要必須要透過文字的翻譯,透過把文件還要再做這個法令等這些,他們沒有,他們全部,第一個一個單一窗口,第二個就是全英文的審查。這些全英文的審查,他這個甚至不只是在你相關的行政機關,他包括各個工會,他們都要求各個工會就是直接用英文可以審查他們的這個外資。"},{"start":9371.038,"end":9399.819,"text":"所以在這樣子的努力之下他們事實上從2021年他們金融廳來開始推動到現在他們有34個外資系統機構在日本設立據點那我們台灣呢我們從2019到現在大概只有3家來所以這部分是很值得借鏡這部分是不是請院長但這裡面有很多事實上要跨部會不只是我們金管會的部分這是不是先請院長就這個部分來"},{"start":9400.475,"end":9402.798,"text":"我舉一個很簡單的回應,就是像科學園區會發展得很好,他就是One Stop Services"},{"start":9416.454,"end":9418.695,"text":"包括資本市場雙語化還有便利外資投入都有很多做法"},{"start":9437.259,"end":9466.424,"text":"不過很謝謝委員提示這個日本的這個做法我們會立刻交辦同仁去研究那看有什麼方式可以強化這個部分我本來還可以再跟院長再進一步談不過院長剛剛提到這個科學園區這個接下來我想要想要這個跟院長討論這個我們看到這個我們說接近日本的經驗我們看到這次台積電台積電在熊本設廠他事實上在他"},{"start":9467.244,"end":9493.181,"text":"不只是台積電在熊本社場,它帶動了整個這個熊本縣包括它周圍,周邊的這個熊本市、月資市、橘黛町、大津町等這些相關帶動在當地可以創造7000個就業機會創造4.3兆日元的財富這個是台積電在熊本社場我們所看到它對於這個日本熊本縣周邊所帶來的這個相關的效應"},{"start":9497.992,"end":9525.578,"text":"其實臺灣這幾年科學園區的設置我們也很希望說這樣子的我們科學園區的設置能夠帶動除了這個園區本身它也可以對周邊帶動這個相關的這些成長那這個我們也知道說我們這個有在2月22號我們有通過這個桃竹苗大細股推動方案桃竹苗大細股推動方案這個部分桃園跟新竹他們都有發展既定的基礎"},{"start":9526.513,"end":9544.494,"text":"我特別關心就是我們桃竹苗的這個大矽谷推動方案裡面苗栗所扮演的角色苗栗所扮演的角色這個部分我希望說現在當然我們在現有的這個桃竹苗大矽谷的推動"},{"start":9546.718,"end":9574.908,"text":"目前這個地方政府就我知道我們現在目前科學園區我們有竹南科學園區竹南跟那個銅鑼銅鑼兩個科學園區在這兩個科學園區之間現在大家對於桃竹苗苗栗對於這個桃竹苗的這個大矽谷的推動最關心的是是不是有可能在後龍再設一個科學園區因為後龍他的相關的條件包括他的這個交通他的交通的條件"},{"start":9575.418,"end":9601.681,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":9602.048,"end":9628.677,"text":"竹南科學園區到這個這個銅鑼科學園區再加上厚隆科學園區把整個苗栗的這個這個產業經濟產值把它帶動起來這部分是能夠去那個吳主委我跟那個委員報告事實上那個上個月的那個院會通過行政院院會通過的這個桃竹苗大細股計畫裡面這苗栗就有包括在裡面"},{"start":9629.637,"end":9629.817,"text":"事實上"},{"start":9651.397,"end":9670.125,"text":"我看到我們其實整個桃竹苗大市一股的計畫相關的這些交通其實有相關配套的這些交通建設事實上都已經開始了都已經在做了都已經在做但是在這個科學園區的設置上面這個到目前這個一方面沒有定案另一方面這個可以說"},{"start":9672.861,"end":9698.106,"text":"以我個人的了解目前苗栗的這些科學園區的設置確實在土地取得上面以及相關法令上面是厚隆設置科學園區是最是他的困難度可能是最低這部分我希望說我們行政院在未來這個整個這個納入這個我們桃竹苗大細股推動方案這能夠做一個審慎的評估全面的考量好不好"},{"start":9699.881,"end":9714.986,"text":"院長是不是我想我們會來努力檢討協調包括國發會地方政府其實也扮演蠻重要的角色就是說因為苗栗縣政府這邊跟這個國科會這邊的科學研究管理局"},{"start":9715.566,"end":9742.376,"text":"我想這個地方政府當然扮演一個重要的角色,那地方政府他的評估他一定是比較區域性的去評估,那我們中央政府一定是這個以整個桃竹苗矽谷計畫他整體的配置來下來考量,所以這個部分當然要協調,跟地方政府積極的協調,那我們自己本身我們在評估上面我們也要我們自己的看法好不好。院長謝謝,謝謝大家辛苦了。"},{"start":9749.489,"end":9754.634,"text":"謝謝,非常感謝我們省委員發會的質詢,謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第48號,我們柯委員智恩質詢。我們謝謝韓院長,我們是不是請我們的陳院長。好,再請陳院長備詢。"},{"start":9778.452,"end":9804.065,"text":"會員早安,恭喜你當選立委,而且祝你婦女節快樂。謝謝院長,我想今天在所有立法院裡面的女性都應該已經被祝福過也很快樂,但是還是要提醒我們還有很多廣大的婦女勞工朋友,他們不管在薪資,不管在勞動時數上面是需要我們政府共同來協助他們的,這是非常重要的。對,我們會全力以赴,讓婦女的工作條件還有工作環境都能夠改善。"},{"start":9804.485,"end":9833.462,"text":"是,那我想院長我們這蘇丹紅的事件可以說是蔓延全台的一發不可收拾還有前者所發生的禁獄事件家屬是哭著回去然後路方的代表也說後果自負這麼一連串的事情可是我們的蔡總統他除了接見外賓之外目前為止我們都沒有看到他跟社會對話也一直神隱我想請問3月5號談判破裂之後蔡總統還有你還有國安的高層有彼此對這一連串的事情做過一些討論嗎"},{"start":9834.403,"end":9857.812,"text":"有。我們一向府院都有很密切的在討論。那蔡總統講什麼?實際上我們很重要的就是對於這一個兩岸的溝通要繼續來加強。那這個金下水域這個事件,那我們當然要來支持我們海巡署的這個合法執法的這樣的過程。謝謝。那個院長最主要的原因是因為蔡總統沒關係那個"},{"start":9859.633,"end":9887.282,"text":"關主委我現在目前為止還有邱主委目前為止還不需要有需要你們的話我會請你們上臺謝謝好我現在就跟院長做因為蔡總統都不跟我們對話我只好透過你來做一個傳話這個部分來說的話那顯然到目前為止整個事件看起來我只看到我們的國防部長每天就是嚇得要死每天是驚心膽跳的然後都睡不著我想不要誤解他的意思我了解但是他是很擔心這個態度是對的因為他擔心"},{"start":9888.402,"end":9888.622,"text":"我只是要強調"},{"start":9914.761,"end":9939.461,"text":"目前為止我們G520還有74天的時間很多的人都已經做好不同的一個心態我想請問院長因為你是我們蔡總統的第一任副總統你同時也是最後一任的行政院長下台的身影要漂亮你覺得你為蔡總統留下什麼你又要交什麼給我們的新任總統我想我可以回答了嗎"},{"start":9940.399,"end":9940.659,"text":"我現在想要"},{"start":9969.359,"end":9969.599,"text":"主席"},{"start":9990.546,"end":10016.327,"text":"我剛特別問到因為我們要很具體的一個回應到底留給我們的這個新的賴總統會是什麼我們先來問一下請問過去蔡總統這樣子的執行的八年當中我們執行的幾項死刑你準備把多少死刑犯交給我們的新任總統我印象中是大概有執行過兩項兩次你在520之前還會再執行死刑嗎我想這個目前"},{"start":10018.435,"end":10046.425,"text":"沒有這樣的規劃而且很多的這些死刑案您比我還清楚嘛現在都在等待這一個大法官的釋憲院長這就是問題所在我剛特別提到你要留給什麼為什麼執政8年卻要在4月23號才對於大法官的釋憲做出答辯而且在未來不管在7月或在9月大法官做完釋憲之後呢其實不管如何你留給了我們的"},{"start":10047.245,"end":10067.282,"text":"新的我們的賴總統卻是一個非常大的一個難題這已經都是三審定讞了這些死刑犯大家不想死可是被害人也不想死這是司法正義但是呢你們卻不斷的配合一些的民間的團體他們不斷的透過視線再審等等之類的我想請問"},{"start":10068.363,"end":10071.706,"text":"難道這些深層敵人你們是認為這些法官都是亂判嗎?"},{"start":10071.706,"end":10083.515,"text":"我們台灣的民意是八成八是認為支持還要執行死刑的。 我的重點在就是為什麼留下這些的攤子給我們的新任總統你送了他38個死刑犯給他。"},{"start":10084.497,"end":10088.72,"text":"時間點的問題而且我要特別強調如果Face是民進黨的一張神主牌我覺得就勇敢的把它說出來"},{"start":10114.42,"end":10135.827,"text":"不要以拖待變,然後把廢死的一些配套好好地把它完整出來,否則我說過你留給新政府是什麼?第一個你留給他的就是38位死刑犯,這是第一個。第二個我們再來看一下,能源的政策是非常多人,來我們的法務部長可以先請回去,等一下他會有機會。我們的能源的政策我還是要特別強調一下,"},{"start":10137.688,"end":10139.01,"text":"相關的執法各部會都有認真在訂定那有些的執法已經公佈有些還在進行當中應該是這樣"},{"start":10156.957,"end":10163.162,"text":"所以是520之前有辦法把這些的修正的法案包括執法全部送到我們立法院來嗎?"},{"start":10163.162,"end":10179.477,"text":"這可以以事負責嗎?這個我要再盤點一下因為你問到執法這個太細了。經濟部的那個災生人員管理條例的執法我們最近就會趕快確定。所以你們在520之前我剛剛所條例的這些的項目當中到底有多少項可以送到我們立法院來做審?"},{"start":10180.137,"end":10206.735,"text":"這是一個對於你能源政策負責的一個表現。執法的部分是到立法院來做備案。那執法的部分我們最近最主要是屋頂太陽光墊的部分。是,我們非常關心有關於碳費收費的這些草案。那我要告訴大家就是說在520之前這些法案不送進來但是我們卻急著要來做電價的漲調。我覺得這部分是全民非常關切的。我先請問一下。"},{"start":10207.495,"end":10211.437,"text":"目前來說我們當然知道這個臺電我們即使是在2023年虧損我們補了500億但是呢他還是預估有1985億的虧損而且今年預估可能還會再繼續還要再虧損1000多億是不是這樣子"},{"start":10224.284,"end":10241.953,"text":"是,原因就是因為這個國際燃料價格上漲嘛,那如果你講到所謂的綠電,它在我們所有現在發電的比例不高,那所以呢如果我們要看電價的高低呢,實際上要看現在佔大部分的燃氣跟燃煤的比例。"},{"start":10242.133,"end":10266.709,"text":"有有有來來我們院長我們馬上的這馬上就有臺電的這個財報來了我們馬上就可以來做一些檢討了而且我覺得院長你不但在強調很多的部分大家問他為什麼會虧損你特別提到的惡霧戰爭我要提醒院長去年7月的時候惡霧戰爭已經開打了不過你在同樣的地方你告訴我們可能預估不會漲價這是你去年7月所特別提到的那我們來看看我們臺電的這個財報好了這個購入的這個所謂的電價裡面當中的確院長你所提到的"},{"start":10271.732,"end":10294.087,"text":"﹗"},{"start":10294.167,"end":10319.574,"text":"你看看我們要達到這個配比不好意思2025我們所預定的50、30、20已經確定是跳票的因為我們的部長已經說2026年才有機會達到但是我們再來看看數據你看我們要如何達到這樣的配比即使已經跳票的2026來說的話我們的再生能源還要增加11%然後呢我們的燃煤要降低4我只想請問以這樣的配比來看的話以購入電力的價格來去看"},{"start":10322.975,"end":10323.015,"text":"二、三、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":10345.592,"end":10347.214,"text":"好,沒關係我們談到民間企業,我們就繼續來討論臺電的一個虧損的一個問題,我們來看一下,你看"},{"start":10364.93,"end":10386.861,"text":"如果臺電的虧損問題我想請問一下因為我這跟臺電要資料他們說這是機密我不曉得機密在哪裡那目前為止我想請問院長你知不知道有關於我們要提到的這個離岸封店的這個問題目前中油投資40億然後臺電是67億超過合計才會100多億然後目前已經受到這個行政院同意這是事實吧"},{"start":10388.491,"end":10410.263,"text":"投資我們的這些離岸風電的問題我們討論這個是經濟部這邊來決定那目前還在走程序那原則上我們會同意他來投資那好了那同意的話那很多的相關的官員還指出來我們投資風場內部的投資報酬力就是IRR是非常穩定的這也是一個事實吧你所得到訊息也是事實吧那如果是這麼樣的穩定的話那為什麼"},{"start":10412.904,"end":10431.898,"text":"我們還要拉這個大費做到這個八大行會做信用擔保呢?這個一定需要齁,這個不是只有臺灣,所有國家在風場的建置的部分,他一定都會需要這個財團的部分。那如果說需要來做這樣的一個擔保的話,那我們來看看這個投資到底有沒有什麼一個必要性喔?"},{"start":10432.418,"end":10460.714,"text":"其實院長我在第9任就擔任立法院委員我在2018年的時候就特別提出來了在這個示範風這個示範風場得標的時候呢我就質疑為什麼我們要花了250億用的是日曆的末代的一個風機我還特別問到說如何保證未來20年當中這個可以保證還可以確保無誤結果現在風場蓋完了我們來檢視一下他到底得到一個什麼樣的結果好不好我們來檢視一下結果我要告訴院長因為我們都談到科學"},{"start":10461.815,"end":10488.625,"text":"目前國外認為認為風機的可用率多到97%你才需要來下注投標這才是需要來做的保證的97%這是國外歐洲所有的部分都這樣可是我們現在目前為止的我不曉得為什麼都創新紀錄只有56%各位我們在過去兩年當中只有兩個月的時候才達到所謂的一些的標準大部分的時間來說我們風機的可用率是非常低的"},{"start":10489.345,"end":10512.022,"text":"這麼低的狀況之下,我只能說這是一個事實,我們二次市場從來沒有達過97%的這樣的一個風機的可用率,然後為什麼我們是獨步全球的低,代表政府花了很多錢蓋了一堆不太能用的風機。委員的這個數據我回去確認,但是我的理解應該跟我的理解是有落差的,應該不是這樣子。"},{"start":10512.602,"end":10538.533,"text":"沒有我的理解97%是國外的一個訊息但是過去兩年過去24個月當中的確沒有達到這麼樣的標準而且你說民間的一個用電我必須要提醒一下在我們的這個我們的這個風電裡面第三期當中不管是來自於不同的國家德國的德國的萊茵再生能源他要宣布退出臺灣還有呢我們的日商也評估不符合他們公司的投資報酬率"},{"start":10540.013,"end":10568.338,"text":"還有更不要去講了丹麥最大的Don Energy他們也是在做很大的一個評估所以呢我只能說很多國的這個部分是紛紛退出而我們確實要如此的來來投資這麼大這個是我們要特別提到的有競爭然後有一些沒有進來所以你講的日商日商有一個日商他確實退出但是另外一個日商加進來所以這個在不同的國家他對不同的風場"},{"start":10569.799,"end":10586.958,"text":"我請求,我要求臺電做出這樣子的一個資料,而且趁著這個時間點,請院長可以責成他們在一個月之內給我相關的資料,可以讓我們多一點了解,因為我們必須要搞清楚這些的源頭,因為這是一個能源最大的一個問題,我不希望一個大的錢坑要"},{"start":10588.072,"end":10613.377,"text":"要我們這些八大行戶來一起跳火坑這是我質詢最大的一個重點沒有問題我們可以提供給委員讓委員了解因為這個能源的問題是牽涉到未來我們電價這都是完全環環相扣的所以我也不希望這能源的這些的問題留給我們的新任的總統還有一大堆的爛牌子不過這一個如果委員講中油台電這個投資案未來都是賣給民間的不是給台電賺夠都不是"},{"start":10613.677,"end":10614.298,"text":"我可以回答一下嗎?"},{"start":10614.298,"end":10614.378,"text":"可以"},{"start":10634.758,"end":10635.839,"text":"97%是國外認為他們在任何要投資的時候?"},{"start":10660.911,"end":10684.261,"text":"可以,我們就好好地用科學論述,但是我要的資料沒有要到,所以院長趁這個時間幫我要到資料來去做,這才是一個真正的我們來互相做一個打變。很好,在這個部分裡面,謝謝。我們接下來,下面一個,因為電費問題是大家非常重視的,下面一個我們來問一下,還是很多人關心的,這個詐騙的問題。欸院長,你有沒有看過,你曾經要送出很多人的書欸。"},{"start":10686.1,"end":10699.946,"text":"您說您的臉也是被放上我們這個詐騙集團當中。 對啊,確實。對,不過您的運氣蠻好的。您都還沒有發生之前,我們刑事警察局已經幫您把它移除了,幫您打詐了。沒有,我想刑事警察局對於任何這個"},{"start":10701.987,"end":10702.007,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":10718.629,"end":10746.69,"text":"這個詐騙的技術歡誠出心但是我們打詐其實有蠻不錯的成果來來來院長沒關係你打造很多成果但是我們還是要發現問題我們來看看到底怎麼樣解決你不要說我昨天就接到一個詐騙在我的立法院他說我的電票沒有繳他說要來拆我的電表在立法院接到這個電話你相信嗎而且我問了所有的立法院的助理每個人都接過類似的一個詐騙電話我們來審視一下你看我相信政府有決心要來打詐但是到底成效怎麼樣"},{"start":10747.53,"end":10749.693,"text":"蔡總統打擊詐欺犯罪中心蘇院長成立打詐國家隊打詐辦公室"},{"start":10758.16,"end":10785.585,"text":"真的每個人都想打詐金額是越花越多然後打詐的技術是越來越高超這真的是生病生的所以到底這個打詐的成效到底如何你說有成效我們來解釋一下院長我還是提醒一下你認為說很有成效但是你要問你會提出數據但是人民的感受不是這個樣子喔你看你花了這麼多錢我現在幫你來整理一下打詐的人力就是不足嘛你看到嗎165的專心的基本是被打爆"},{"start":10786.545,"end":10801.342,"text":"你們提到我們兩個層次來看,檢查的機關的人力目前為止還欠缺的670億就把你算的出來,而且打造中心的165,說實在的這個配備45個人而且一年接到43萬"},{"start":10803.624,"end":10831.532,"text":"通的電話平均每天大概是1184通而且每人平均接的快100通的電話這個人力我們再看下面一個這個你花了這麼多的錢比過去更多的錢但是呢你放在這個所謂的人力的部分裡面只佔6點多大部分都放在設備跟儀器但是我們需要聽到親自的人在第一時間告訴我該怎麼辦可是你卻把整個的"},{"start":10832.352,"end":10833.112,"text":"您現在看的是這一個"},{"start":10856.377,"end":10856.797,"text":"我只是舉一個例子沒有問題沒有問題"},{"start":10873.63,"end":10902.243,"text":"好那院長你就舉這個例子但是我只是強調這個重點就是你人類的配人力的配比包括我剛剛所提到的一個人每天要接到上前鋒的電話你已經爆掉165的人員已經爆掉了好不好還有還有院長我同意你啦我同意你就是說當我們有好的設備那我們的人力需要來禁用然後呢來加強然後讓用科技執法能夠來進行這個我們雙方來努力如果人力不足我們當然會來補充"},{"start":10903.403,"end":10926.638,"text":"那什麼時候來補足?現在內政部長或法務部長都在你人力什麼時候補足?跟委員說明我們檢查人力需要檢察官助理那行政院去年已經給我們撥了100人今年還要撥150人所以我們會在人力的補充上能夠全力以赴來做好打詐的工作你的檢察官助理你的檢查單位裡面其實對你們是有非常多的"},{"start":10927.998,"end":10940.605,"text":"不是,非常肯定,我們現在有增加的檢察官助理,成果非常好。檢察官助理的部分他們同樣沒有代替檢察官,他們只是在行政業務上面,畢竟他們還不是,所以他們只能在行政業務上面做一些擔擔。"},{"start":10956.593,"end":10984.661,"text":"是,但是問題為止,你檢察官做得再好,但是我們人民還是覺得我們目前打仗還是非常的不利,而且有非常多的意見,這只要跟院長好好地反映一下。你所帶領的這些的團隊,你或許告訴我你做得很好,但是呢我們有太多的社會案件當中,人都抓回來了,你們還把他當作大內宣,結果呢一個人被放走,還被人家取消說你們根本就是拿了免費機票,這假密鎖。當然是這樣,這不是我主張的。因為他是一個通緝犯,我們當然一定要引渡回來。"},{"start":10985.501,"end":10988.283,"text":"但是我們尊重司法獨立啦但是我們會來跟法院不用"},{"start":11005.576,"end":11027.254,"text":"不用急,我們會來跟司法院溝通,然後好好的跟他來協調。但是呢,我們絕對希望這一個詐騙犯應該要得到應有的懲罰。 院長有非常多的一些案例,院長有非常多的案例,這些都是讓人民覺得非常的有膽。對,但是我們要尊重司法獨立。我當然知道你要尊重,但是你要把問題解決是最重要的。對,所以我們會協調溝通。"},{"start":11027.794,"end":11052.271,"text":"對啊,所以好好跟司法院期待,不要檢警在那邊抓人,然後司法法官在放人。然後呢,雖然今年是龍年,但你不要那麼多恐龍法官好不好,院長,這很重要啊。這個我們同意,我們也會努力來。好啦,那你說你打造來說的話。我要跟司法院講一下,司法院最近也很努力地對於這個抓罪。大家都很努力,但是人民都沒什麼感覺。所以你看,這個時候我剛剛問你說要留下給我們這個新的總統是什麼,真的。"},{"start":11053.653,"end":11070.806,"text":"這個詐騙的這個黑數也很多,你們所提出來這個詐騙的金額88億,還有很多的黑數,我還是強的。我們在去年齁,因為這個不法犯罪所得就查到了41億,而且呢攔阻詐騙的已經有攔阻了76億齁,所以就116億的"},{"start":11072.688,"end":11073.028,"text":"你剛才講的是80億嘛,但是我﹖"},{"start":11095.157,"end":11114.651,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下現在黑數比以前降低很多特別是我們165專線設了之後因為案件進來過去可能就像COVID-19一樣部長所謂的黑數就是查不到叫黑數你怎麼可以告訴我如何告訴我黑數是降低很多黑數就是看不到的數字啦那看不到數字你怎麼把它降低什麼改變很多"},{"start":11115.071,"end":11140.845,"text":"委員跟你報告因為就像COVID-19一樣過去可能確診他不報可是因為現在有充分的管道165的話他不只是可以這個報案他現在還可以這個我們變成是一個大數據所以現在165的專線像你剛剛在講這個通宿增加但是通宿增加對我們處理打炸的事情是有幫助因為才可以在最短的時間裡面把最新的這種犯罪的手法去跟民眾來作宣"},{"start":11142.346,"end":11142.666,"text":"我們沒有舉白旗啦。 我們很努力。"},{"start":11172.626,"end":11172.967,"text":"有數位部,有。"},{"start":11190.586,"end":11218.646,"text":"有有數位部有他是放在NCC之下面放在NCC下面的組織你去看他放在NCC下面我還幫院長你來看一下院長你不要這樣很無奈的微笑我告訴你我都是用科學數據來告訴你你看他是放在數位發展不是放在這個任務是配合NCC的組織條例下面他做了哪一些事情幫電商上課督促業者做這個檢測還有包括這些這個做些鼓勵還是上課這不是我們數位部的一個標準"},{"start":11219.807,"end":11247.564,"text":"哎部長上來了是我可以回答嗎我們不只有協助NCC我們有協助金管會特別是在就組詐跟賭詐這兩件事資訊流跟金流上我們都全力來陪部長你他們把這個條文裡面四個大的部會都放在前面你是附屬在NCC下面的那不會覺得委屈嗎你那不會覺得大家因為你是數位部沒有辦法在打仗裡面發揮一個所謂一定能力把你放在NCC下面讓你被人委屈嗎我都替你委屈了"},{"start":11248.264,"end":11265.858,"text":"委員我們這個整個的那個圖啊你不要用這個圖看啦這個圖是市詐、主詐、賭詐跟懲詐有不同的主責的單位但是我們數位部實際上是跟這四個部分都有重要的情形都有幫助"},{"start":11266.278,"end":11286.144,"text":"事詐、賭詐、主詐跟懲詐都有關注的。 知道啦,數位部目前就是發生賭詐的部分。 我說實在的,當初我剛好唐部長自己上來了。 我說實在的,當初你上任的時候大家認為你是IT的一個天才。 然後現在大家對你4000萬的所謂出國的旅費等等之類的。 然後呢?"},{"start":11286.564,"end":11289.405,"text":"我只問你對唐鳳昨天一路下來他似乎已經從一個大家最大的亮眼的明星像變成淪為打詐"},{"start":11315.717,"end":11316.398,"text":"我每一個部長、每一個部會的所長都做得不錯。"},{"start":11334.138,"end":11334.158,"text":"部長"},{"start":11361.698,"end":11391.698,"text":"議員長"},{"start":11391.838,"end":11393.079,"text":"我們主責的遊戲點數也大幅下降這個案件"},{"start":11420.199,"end":11433.391,"text":"我們主責第三方支付現在已經全面的來登錄所以我想這些都是在我們主責的範圍裡面我們來幫助當然我想大家期望我做更多的就是網路上面的廣告平台業等等那這個我們也願意來主責"},{"start":11434.431,"end":11460.086,"text":"對大家期望你更多但是大家也給你這麼久的時間了所以你目前只剩下74天的時間了所以在這目前剩下的時間你是否該給我們的新任總統上任之前可以讓我們在場的所有每一個人可以給我們新任總統上任之前給我們一個更好的一個打仗看得出最大一個成效的部分否則你們剛剛所調的每一個事項對民眾來說的話其實感受度還是非常的低的"},{"start":11460.819,"end":11489.228,"text":"其實我想在投資廣告上面大家所不希望看到的是同樣一個人他可以冒名成好幾個名人那這個部分就是我們已經送到現在已經一讀交交委會的電子簽章法要解決的問題所以也很希望大院能夠支持我們這個法案電子簽章我們沒有問題所以院長最後給你的一個時間當中我還是認為剩下74天時間可以做的事情非常的多所以我剛剛所調列出來的包括在死刑犯部分的在事件的這個部分裡面這個時間點本期是有意見的第二個"},{"start":11489.708,"end":11517.837,"text":"有關於我剛所要求的在這個電機架台電裡面的虧損還有你所購入電力還有風場的部分也請你能夠呈現去給我還有最重要的是人民認為應該要來在打造層面當中應該做好的這樣的一個工作不要一天到晚都告訴我做的有多好多好你說很多地方已經下架但是人民的被詐騙我剛特別提出來了詐騙的比數很高黑數更高所以大家都是在比賽技術的層面如果人民沒有敢"},{"start":11518.097,"end":11525.23,"text":"﹗"},{"start":11525.961,"end":11548.398,"text":"對,所以我也一再的強調我們現在的整個內閣會繼續戰戰兢兢的做好福國立民的工作,然後在5月20能夠跟下一任的內閣能夠無縫的交接,然後把現在8年所做的這樣的一個好的成績能夠再繼續發揚光大,然後更能夠使得台灣更加的堅韌,更加的溫暖。"},{"start":11548.558,"end":11549.618,"text":"你不用擔心,我都會好好跟他溝通,還有無縱皆悔。"},{"start":11570.846,"end":11572.447,"text":"謝謝科學委員之恩的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第49號陳穎委員質詢。"},{"start":11627.252,"end":11647.917,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請院長還有財政部還有原民會麻煩請院長備詢,也請財政部跟原民會兩位首長備詢。陳委員早,恭喜你當選連任,也祝你婦女節快樂。"},{"start":11649.909,"end":11669.808,"text":"謝謝院長。那院長我今天要跟您討論的這個問題是我在這邊質詢的第三次了。那每一次的這個會期這個很短的總質詢的時間那我都要來拜託院長同一件事那您就會知道這件事有多麼的重要。"},{"start":11670.989,"end":11696.555,"text":"政府在歸還原住民土地的政策上我們有不斷地在加速但是院長因為政府的規定它限制了原住民原保地的流通性導致我們的土地還給原住民之後我們原住民拿到這個土地卻只是空有土地而已因為銀行根本就不接受原保地作為擔保品"},{"start":11697.537,"end":11717.305,"text":"原住民的長輩們在自己的兒女要成家立業的過程當中他們可能會想要買房子而且可能要創業在他們需要貸款的時候呢長輩想要幫幫自己的兒女喔那或者是年輕人自己很努力想要買房子但是土地拿到這個銀行的時候卻完全帶不到錢"},{"start":11718.75,"end":11730.16,"text":"又例如說對剛剛有特別講到說因為年輕人買房子那可能在這個信用跟這個財力的評估上可能就是差那麼一點點的這個擔保品"},{"start":11733.157,"end":11760.635,"text":"就可以順利把這個貸款貸下來了但是呢家裡長輩空著那一塊空有那一塊土地卻完全幫不上忙那也有些長輩因為這個部落的房子老舊了需要裝修那本來想說拿這個原保的地到這個銀行貸點錢來修繕但是這個原保的地到這個銀行貸不到錢那最後還要向這個兒女或者像親戚朋友求助"},{"start":11761.876,"end":11782.194,"text":"或許原民會會回復說這個原民會有這個修繕補助啊但是這個修繕補助的這個經費其實是有限制的那名額上也是有限制的在這個元寶地受信貸款這件事我已經協調兩年我們一直都還在原地踏步沒有一個比較好的進展"},{"start":11784.48,"end":11799.48,"text":"﹗"},{"start":11799.48,"end":11799.981,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":11816.681,"end":11832.312,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":11832.532,"end":11849.245,"text":"光是這個房屋貸款, 原民會就沒有辦法辦理了。 所以在我們沒有辦法, 就是後來也停止了, 沒有去推動這個原住民金庫或原住民銀行的這個前提之下, 所以我繼續又在努力,"},{"start":11850.105,"end":11875.905,"text":"原保地貸款成為這個有利的這個單保品的這件事我們又繼續的在討論當然我想我今天先把你們可能回復我的這個狀況我先講給你們聽啦例如說你們或許會講這個可以找農會但是事實上只有部分幾間少數的農會會接受原保地的貸款那大部分的農會他們是不會接受的"},{"start":11876.445,"end":11897.482,"text":"再來還有一個你們可能會講說原住民還有我們還有這個原住民族這個除去互助社可以接受元寶地的貸款但事實上呢雖然這個互助社可以接受這個元寶地的這個受信貸款可是互助社他畢竟他不是一個金融機關所以可以貸款的項目其實僅僅"},{"start":11899.064,"end":11908.18,"text":"此事限制在這個信用貸款的部分那如果說族人需要呃申請這個房貸的話互助社他是沒有辦法辦理的好所以這邊呃我們在這個"},{"start":11913.291,"end":11934.361,"text":"我講了這麼多我們也討論了這麼久到現在還是自愛難行那原住民保留地在金融市場遇到什麼問題我想來想去我就只有想到一件事情而且它是事實最貼切的形容就是我們原住民保留地在金融市場它是被歧視的我只能這樣想"},{"start":11936.622,"end":11962.191,"text":"原住民的壽信貸款這件事情在我最近一次的這個協調中有機會推動的模式就是由其中的一間公股銀行來承接而且我希望它是台銀由台銀來承接讓台銀在辦理所有的這個貸款業務上把這個有價值的元寶地作為債權確保的這個擔保品而且在這個元寶地"},{"start":11964.793,"end":11973.143,"text":"建價之後的價值由原民會的綜合發展基金還有其他的信保基金共同來做保證。"},{"start":11976.381,"end":12000.179,"text":"我們就差這樣臨門一腳也需要院長還有部長跟主委的支持那所以今天我在這邊再一次特別拜託那我也希望說這件事可以由這個財政部來主責然後讓原民會和信保基金來配合我不知道這個院長我們花了這麼多"},{"start":12001.34,"end":12002.182,"text":"希望這次有善意的回應"},{"start":12007.947,"end":12035.838,"text":"因為這件事情我曉得委員很用心也希望把這一個元寶地這個向銀行申請貸款這件事情能夠順利的來安排那謝謝委員幫我們很多的援助園鄉的同胞來做這樣的一個爭取那這件事情我也曉得我們財政部跟園民會已經有跟委員這邊在做溝通協調我是不是請他們再來報告一下很早的時間"},{"start":12039.89,"end":12049.706,"text":"對來聽聽看有關原住民保留地要作為抵押貸款的事情那我想委員也很清楚第一個就是說因為他的承受者"},{"start":12050.262,"end":12076.071,"text":"只限於原住民那所以他在流通上就限制而且銀行也沒有辦法取得假設說他實行抵押權的時候也沒辦法取得這個原保地的一個所有權那所以在擔保上事實上是比較難做的那因此呢我想委員一直努力希望剛剛委員也提到由綜合發展基金或者其他信用保證基金來做最後的一個受限的風險的話我想如果這個部分可以做"},{"start":12076.551,"end":12105.423,"text":"那如果園民會這邊可以提出有關相關的保證諸月準則的時候那我們再來跟我們的公股銀行來進一步的一個評估那讓這個事情可以能夠往前推動那請問主委在園民會提出這樣的準則你們有沒有困難還是你有你也認為說朝這個方向你們是願意去配合的對剛委員報告的確在過去長期原住民是保留地因為他移轉是縣市原住民所以"},{"start":12105.834,"end":12121.73,"text":"一道這個貸款的這個問題,我想這個部分我們未來會再跟我們的財政部還有公務銀行怎麼樣透過整個完成的配套,包括那個受信的整個專案的可行性做後續的處理。"},{"start":12122.762,"end":12149.941,"text":"我很高興今天沒有提到我前面已經先講出的這些推卸的這個理由那我想也希望是我們可以把時間就是壓在三個月你們可以把這樣的一個方向這樣的一個準則把它我們可以在三個月內來提出來完成可以嗎?那我們努力努力我定三個月可以嗎?"},{"start":12151.528,"end":12155.632,"text":"接下來呢我想要討論的是這個族語的問題大家都很清楚母語如果斷了那我們文化也就滅了"},{"start":12174.608,"end":12192.346,"text":"所以語言是文化的靈魂, 那這個我們語言對於文化的傳承是相當重要的。 在原住民族語言世維的這個年代裡, 我們通過了國家語言發展法以及原住民族語言發展法, 尤其特別是宜將主委在這個"},{"start":12193.507,"end":12209.804,"text":"﹚"},{"start":12210.276,"end":12230.751,"text":"我想在這個推動語言的學習過程當中我們遇到很多的困難那其中一個很大的問題就是目前主委老師的師資嚴重不足那我們需要有一個強大的這個學習工具來學習因為像都會區的這個學校他很難找到主委老師"},{"start":12231.571,"end":12241.389,"text":"就算找到這個族語老師了有可能布農族的學生找到的卻是阿美族的這個族語的老師所以這個語言的建制維護"},{"start":12243.717,"end":12272.836,"text":"主語查詢的網站我們看一下叫做這個主語一樂園去年在選舉的時候我有提出了一項政見就是希望建置AI的主語學習系統那園民會目前已經進行了一個計畫就是這個主語AI翻譯計畫那未來系統完成建置之後呢它可以透過語言進行的翻譯但是我是覺得還不夠啦那我想在我進入接下來的質詢之前我先解釋一下這個名詞"},{"start":12273.677,"end":12274.65,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12276.811,"end":12303.728,"text":"我想我們現在我覺得要把AI導入這個主語的學習那當然這個AI有分成深層式AI和分辨式AI那當然分辨式AI就是把這個現有的數據或內容中提取資訊協助判斷那這個深層式的AI是一種可以創造新的內容和想法的人工智慧包括創造對話故事影像視訊和音樂等等"},{"start":12307.018,"end":12332.964,"text":"主委這個是我們現在大家在討論的生成式AI的語言學習系統那它所建置大量的語言資料庫之後呢可以透過電腦系統的判別與使用跟這個 對不起透過這個電腦系統的判別和這個使用者互相的這個對話不過我們現在看到的它是一個英文的對話"},{"start":12335.57,"end":12360.468,"text":"來看一下我們原住民我們原住民目前法定有16族那總共有42種的語別語料的搜集跟這個建制上當然是相對的複雜跟麻煩目前原語會進行的這個建制的這個語音翻譯的功能跟這個英文的這個學習工具的發展上技術上我們其實還是落後非常多的"},{"start":12361.429,"end":12375.601,"text":"所以我希望可以推動深層式AI的這個主語學習的對話系統那它可以協助我們學習主語過程當中的聽跟說這樣的系統那減輕大家的這個學習的這個壓力而且我"},{"start":12381.527,"end":12394.602,"text":"特別是如果像現在很多家中是沒有這個會講族語的這個長輩沒有那個環境那學校又請不到這個學生所需要的這個族語的"},{"start":12397.225,"end":12417.788,"text":"主別的這個主語的老師我們都可以透過這一套系統來解決而且這樣的學習人手一機的話不分年齡不分地點都可以來學習這個主語那也可以做一個永久的記錄所以甚至我們原住民的長者到醫院的時候這一套系統"},{"start":12418.729,"end":12420.79,"text":"所以我想今天提出這樣的建議不知道各位"},{"start":12438.159,"end":12458.352,"text":"我覺得這是很創新的想法,而且也有它的可行性。那現在在聖城市AI的這個部分,國科會也有相當的積極在推動。我是不是請吳主委簡單的回應一下,讓我們一向主委聽聽看,然後也許兩邊可以合作。"},{"start":12458.652,"end":12476.714,"text":"好,謝謝那個委員的這個提醒。事實上這個聖城市人工智慧對於各種語言的這個認識應該是有它的特點。那事實上從去年開始在院長的支持之下我們已經做了一個台德,我們叫可信任的人工智慧對話引擎。"},{"start":12477.475,"end":12501.401,"text":"他可以寫文章可以翻譯whatever那事實上原民會在人工智慧這邊應用剛剛這個委員有提到事實上我們已經有在做翻譯那未來事實上我們這個我們叫台德這個引擎在4月應該會公開那我們國科會這邊也會來協助這個原民會這邊事實上那個引擎是一個basic"},{"start":12501.741,"end":12527.977,"text":"那如果要用到雲民這邊的話我們可以持續來在上面再做一些訓練應該就可以用那我想國科會跟這個圓明會會來配合首先謝謝委員對圓明會過去推動族裔的成果的肯定那的確目前圓明會推動的是分辨式的這個AI的這個部分的整個推動那未來呢我們會跟我們國科會的針對"},{"start":12529.221,"end":12529.901,"text":"謝謝陳盈委員的質詢,謝謝陳院長的備詢。"},{"start":12560.797,"end":12564.125,"text":"報告院會上午質詢到此為止,下午2時30分繼續開會,進行質詢。現在休息。"},{"start":21612.469,"end":21613.41,"text":"報告院會現在繼續開會進行質詢。接下來我們請楊委員、瓊英質詢。"},{"start":21635.758,"end":21654.663,"text":"謝謝親愛的韓院長以及我們陳院長所領軍的行政院團隊楊瓊怡發言首先來祝賀我們今天是3月8號婦女節祝我們所有全國的女性大家天天快樂那首先來請我們的陳院長麻煩請陳院長備詢以及國防部長"},{"start":21661.857,"end":21687.756,"text":"老闆請國防部恭喜你當選連任也祝你婦女節快樂好謝謝院長來國防部長邱部長他昨天在備詢的時候他說明了第一集是指開炮開槍但是我們現在已經改變但是部長你昨天也說了他說你說兩岸瀕臨動武情勢嚴峻擔心到睡不著"},{"start":21690.006,"end":21710.718,"text":"委員長,這個說法你認同嗎?好緊張欸。我想國防部長有國有民,這是我們國人的福氣啦。但是國防部長他一定要日理萬機,所以他對於這個兩岸的發展當然很關心。但是我們會努力來維持台海現況的和平,然後呢"},{"start":21711.438,"end":21732.335,"text":"謝謝院長你的回答因為對於邱部長我是非常的尊敬而且呢我本時要請教提出了這樣的論點請問請問院長你也認同這樣的論點照你剛才所說的那你有跟蔡總統跟賴準總統報告他們是不是有認同這樣的一個說法"},{"start":21734.296,"end":21756.082,"text":"我想我們每一個人都希望臺海能夠維持和平穩定,那國防部這邊我請部長回答你有跟蔡英文總統報告嗎?你有跟賴準總統報告嗎?我跟委員報告,第一個所謂第一期的界定剛剛委員講的,以往是認為開槍開炮才叫第一期,我們才反擊"},{"start":21757.122,"end":21772.448,"text":"現在因為我們發覺有無人機的問題,空飄氣球,灰色地帶,而且有灰色事件。在第一期的定義我們不一樣了,所以你會緊張得不得了,所以睡不著,所以請教你有跟蔡總統以及賴準總統報告嗎?"},{"start":21774.394,"end":21791.362,"text":"國防戰備規定是國防部來核定的,但是核定之前我們一定要做一個在這個狀況推演當中我會跟總統做個說明,所以總統是三軍統帥,第一期雖然我下命,但我一定會給他請示。"},{"start":21792.342,"end":21796.486,"text":"您給蔡英文總統說明了,有給賴準總統報告了嗎?說明嗎?有沒有說明?給蔡英文總統說明了,有給賴準總統說明了嗎?"},{"start":21807.706,"end":21808.186,"text":"對,報告了嗎?請問報告了嗎?這講過"},{"start":21827.133,"end":21853.582,"text":"蔡英文總統也講過了蔡英文總統報告了我本席也建議因為賴準總統即將要上任他也應該要了解情勢接下來本席要請教我們的反制計畫以前以往的政府曾經有過說我有了因為台海危機的時候他說我有了十幾種版本請教部長我們的反制計畫有沒有準備"},{"start":21856.511,"end":21879.816,"text":"國軍那邊經常在處理的規定也有依據,應急作戰也有計劃,還有全面作戰也是有計劃,一定有計劃因為我們必須要聽到政府部長你告訴我們讓我們安心,要不然你睡不著我們更緊張啊,所以12海浬如果往內延伸那12海浬我睡不著因為我的責任所在,我一定很擔憂"},{"start":21881.116,"end":21907.579,"text":"我擔心原因在哪裡,我想說我把這個掌握好,以便讓我們的民間能夠安心。我們希望這樣子,不要搞大家沸沸揚揚。所以您的擔心是讓我們放心。就這樣講。就這樣講,你認同。好不容易我們有共同點,所以本席也要再請教。就是說目前我們這12海里的話呢,如果往內海再延伸,那等於臨界線快到。"},{"start":21907.819,"end":21913.924,"text":"沒有什麼延伸的了,就是說那一海就是12海裏,這沒有辦法再縮進來,最後防線最後防線,二十海裏我們就要反應了。"},{"start":21922.409,"end":21943.381,"text":"所以我們希望人民希望能夠安心那我也也也也謝謝你你的憂心等於是讓人民放心因為人民希望要和平兩岸和平這是人民的需要這不用感情這是我們的責任接下來我們好部長你請回我們再來請唐鳳部長"},{"start":21961.921,"end":21985.106,"text":"委員長,我們數位部從111年的8月份成立,到現在大概一年半的時間。 是。那麼很多人在質疑你的成效,我們也不願意質疑,我們希望看到有成效。但是呢,在這裡我們要請問,現在數位部的辦公室打算預計是怎麼回事呢?現在我們是用租的嘛,是不是?"},{"start":21986.234,"end":21997.059,"text":"跟委員報告,我們是有一個辦公室是租的,然後一個是我們自己的。我們自己的在延平,然後租的是在行政院附近。在行政院附近一定要多少租金啊?"},{"start":21998.161,"end":22017.75,"text":"大概5年之後會到行政院旁邊的行一行二的這個地方,變成一個永久的地方。現在你現在這個租金是多少錢?在前一年半應該是大概7000萬左右。一年半還是一年?因為前一年半。你是先一年半7000萬是不是?還是一年7000萬?因為我們是從那個2022年。一年半7000萬,是嗎?"},{"start":22027.255,"end":22040.769,"text":"一年半不是一年一年半七千萬那接下來有人在質疑您要中央的國有財產書把那個南門中紀市場的用地要收回"},{"start":22042.525,"end":22068.812,"text":"我們1月就已經確定沒有這件事,因為臺北市政府已經不要了嘛,不使用了,所以就...而且我們也不是到華光,我們是到行政院旁邊的行一行二。1.7億蓋的南門中紀市場拆除,花,這個1.7億現在拆除,那傳聞是因為部長您要這一塊土地自己來蓋大樓,有沒有這回事?"},{"start":22070.185,"end":22077.53,"text":"但是臺北市政府不用我回答嗎?有沒有這回事請教?你有沒有要這一塊地?你沒有要這一塊地?那為什麼會有公文說你要這一塊地?而且臺北市政府數次給國有財產訴說讓我們延續繼續不要拆掉我們1.7億所蓋的中紀市場,南美市場呢?"},{"start":22100.646,"end":22115.541,"text":"在去年的時候國有財產署確實有來調查我們的意願,但是調查完之後到今年1月我們已經受到行政院的一個很明確的指示說我們不是去滑光而是到行政院。 行政院的指示本席是要請教你有沒有要這一塊地。"},{"start":22117.742,"end":22118.502,"text":"為什麼要拆掉這個市場呢?"},{"start":22137.267,"end":22156.712,"text":"對,這台北市政府不要...所以我們本來喔,本來台北市政府在上次上個會期的時候...謝謝院長,部長你上來你是不是要說明?現在唐鳳部長說是你們問他們,那他說你給什麼地他就要什麼地,但是外界傳聞本席不希望有任何的矛盾點,他說..."},{"start":22158.032,"end":22178.586,"text":"他是如此說但是外界不是是說唐鳳部長要求我要這塊地所以你要拆掉這個市場有沒有這回事跟委員報告那一塊土地是國有的土地然後是出租給臺北市我沒有這回事請做說明出租給臺北市那他作為南門市場的中繼市場那現在南門市場已經蓋完了他已經蓋完了那是不是要搬回去了"},{"start":22180.447,"end":22196.087,"text":"那這塊土地本來當時就是臺北市政府跟國有財產署租的嘛那租期也滿了他不要用的時候就當然要申請延續你們不准沒有他本來有上次這個"},{"start":22198.424,"end":22226.355,"text":"林長佐委員有在這裏大院這裏提到說希望他們能夠作為東門市場的中繼市場因為東門市場要整修後來他們沒有這個想法說不他們自己不要他們就自動把土地還給我們所以這個我覺得好奇怪的議題本席一直在強調你說好奇怪我也覺得好奇怪所以本席一直認為說我們不希望社會有矛盾點大家說明清楚"},{"start":22227.276,"end":22227.516,"text":"我 我想"},{"start":22247.348,"end":22273.769,"text":"行一行二是一個聯合的就是很多個部會一起使用的地方那我們一向跟國產署都是說我們現在是租新光那國產署任何時候指定給我們說我們去哪裡我們就不用再租新光我們一直是這個例子沒有說指定要去哪裡因為他現在租約是這個一年半"},{"start":22277.151,"end":22299.672,"text":"你一年半後會給他新的大樓嗎?不是新的大樓,是那塊土地,因為行一行二是整個我們在國有土地區那塊要蓋到什麼時候呢?他是行政區適合蓋辦公大樓,然後調配他沒有自有辦公廳設的機關去那邊蓋。好,所以院長,那這一塊地要多久時間可以給數位部自己的辦公大樓呢?"},{"start":22301.678,"end":22327.388,"text":"數位部的報告,剛才已經講得很清楚,就是行政院會做通盤的考量,那如果行政...什麼時候呢?因為他現在租啊,他現在租一年半要7000萬啊。沒有,啊如果...什麼時候?如果這個來不及的話,那就必須要租用嘛,這個我們要看我們通盤的規劃,因為不是只有給數位部啦。沒關係,現在我們討論,你是要繼續一直住下去,還是希望你自己有大樓?"},{"start":22327.708,"end":22346.984,"text":"我剛才有說了,任何時候國有財產署告訴我們說有哪個地方我們可以去,我們就那個時候就會再提出來。好,那院長他什麼時候可以去?那就要看我剛才講過啦,就是行一行二的那個大樓啊。什麼時候呢?有沒有一個時間點?有在規劃。有在規劃。有在規劃,要規劃多久?這個要看規劃的時間。議員是要7年,會嗎?多久?7年會嗎?不會啦。那要幾年?我想這個要看規劃的時間。規劃時間沒有7年要幾年?"},{"start":22358.158,"end":22359.979,"text":"院長,本期要跟你討論一個HPV疫苗的問題。"},{"start":22373.971,"end":22396.536,"text":"因為孩子是我們的寶貝,您是公衛專家,我給你稱一個讚。您是第一位說HPV疫苗的公衛專家,您說了,您是第一位呼籲要男女共同一起,不要做半套。我們本鄉好不容易,因為現在少子化,每一個孩子都是國家的寶貝,跟是父母的寶貝。"},{"start":22397.516,"end":22423.14,"text":"所以我來請求你我來拜託你在這幾年來我一直關注這樣的議題要讓孩子健康所以終於談判了讓女生我們的國中女生都施打了當時告訴我們說沒關係我們先從女生我也願意我也感謝那如果說女生有達到九成那我們就來考慮男生給院長報告換我給你報告說明我們已經達到九成多"},{"start":22423.76,"end":22451.461,"text":"你是公衛專家所以我今天務必要跟你討論這個問題因為我們看到美國30年來HPV的頭頸奶從16.3%增加到70%好恐怖耶這都是我們的寶貝耶日本10年來從45%提升到52%我們台灣現在30%因為口咽癌所以本席一直很難過的看到這個數字每一年增加的是6.9%"},{"start":22453.476,"end":22471.917,"text":"我們要公衛最重要的,就是什麼,預防,最重要。 院長,你身為院長,我要拜託你,我們好不容易,好不容易,我希望我們到底公衛防禦疾病我們是要領先指標還是要落後指標,請教院長。"},{"start":22473.171,"end":22483.514,"text":"當然要領先嘛當然要領先嘛對不對我們看到美國70%日本帳我們每一年6.9%我們都好緊張所以全國家長沒關係你不要那個70%是不好的領先我們要領先這個聯盟"},{"start":22491.716,"end":22514.883,"text":"理事長他自己本身也得到了他才充分知道說預防是多麼的重要而且他是全國家長協會的總會長所以在之前我們跨黨派藍綠白大家一起記者會公布說我們已經達到了九成我們務必希望男生要做我們也做了一個統計我們也做了一個統計喔也就是"},{"start":22516.721,"end":22521.677,"text":"如果國中生來施打這個疫苗只要大概2.5億的經費"},{"start":22523.609,"end":22524.509,"text":"因為這個癌症他不會看你的性別"},{"start":22550.06,"end":22550.781,"text":"新總統準總統賴清德也喊出了投資未來世代"},{"start":22565.56,"end":22586.925,"text":"我相信防癌疫苗就是對我們投資年輕人的這個健康非常非常的重要所以我在這邊來拜託院長我希望我們之前所努力的已經達成成功女生已經是這個九成以上了而且我們成效也看到可以節省很多我們的資源"},{"start":22587.585,"end":22587.765,"text":"請教院長"},{"start":22613.049,"end":22635.225,"text":"好,委員你講得很好你是真的是公共衛生的專家也是預防醫學的專家那我現在要跟你回應的就是說我個人本身也是覺得應該男女都接種HPV的疫苗那在臺灣呢實際上跟HPV比較有關係的口咽的部分的癌症是口咽癌啦不是口腔癌比較少口咽癌"},{"start":22636.505,"end":22655.96,"text":"所以在這個部分的話我們已經有請這個衛福部在研議那如果我們在現在盤算經費可以的話我們當然很樂意作為亞洲領先的國家因為我要問這個之前我也做功課我也特別跟薛部長我很讚許他他對於預防的部分他很支持"},{"start":22656.5,"end":22674.792,"text":"而且真的可以讓我們家長可以安心所以在院長你的答覆也就是我們同意讓我們HPV的疫苗的施打男生尤其他有一個精華時間打就國中時間我們趕快去爭取這個精華時間你同意全面來施打對不對我們會研議啦因為這個包括研議就是同意嘛"},{"start":22682.832,"end":22693.744,"text":"因為他會有範圍的界定我希望在520之前 院長你有了這個成效幫助我們所有的家長"},{"start":22695.243,"end":22720.712,"text":"讓我們的孩子健康,好嗎?院長。好啦,我想一下,那個研議的意思是說,你是要只打一個13歲,或者你要13到18歲都打。好,那我們一個原則也就是同意男生施打,那質疑方案請部長這邊盡快研議方案,好不好?我們請他盡快研議,如果可以的話我們就來推動。我們務必在520之前把政策拿出來,好不好?這個才是我們要的,謝謝。預算要編到明年。"},{"start":22722.408,"end":22739.905,"text":"接下來本席要請教你請回金鈴攤牌的這個問題是全球的這個選學裡頭2022年我們才公布2050年我們的路線策略等等那我們要怎麼跟台灣接軌不管怎麼樣我們還是要加油所以"},{"start":22740.606,"end":22759.65,"text":"國會議員"},{"start":22759.77,"end":22782.815,"text":"我們的成效在這四項的指標當中請說明我們在電動機車的部分7.1億以及你能源補充站922站1.8億你試乘的部分補助3500家的2.1億你的維修工具建置4500家2.2億現在目前的成效如何請告訴我比例"},{"start":22784.276,"end":22800.51,"text":"委員吼,那因為委員提這個,我們這個都有在積極進行當中,那相關的競爭﹖你告訴我比例!比例的部分我們是不是會後再給委員﹖成效不彰!沒有沒有,這個其實都用的﹖這是你會後給我,你當然要會後給我,我知道你現在打不出來﹖"},{"start":22801.07,"end":22815.596,"text":"院長,我提出這個意見,也就是一個有為的政府,你任何的政策提出,你應該要去追蹤它的成效是怎麼樣。不好的,我們趕快加加油。好的,我們要趕快怎麼樣去推廣,認不認同這樣的觀念。"},{"start":22816.616,"end":22831.725,"text":"但是你現在要求112年目標達成的執行狀況這個詳細的數字給我們部長有一個時間來盤點再跟您報告這樣比較合理我也願意接受你這個盤點你真有做得好你知道答案"},{"start":22832.545,"end":22854.218,"text":"接下來要把數字給本席113年你強化鼓勵購買電動車現在一台是保七千本來是說113年沒了我們一直說你還是要努力所以一定也從善如流我們繼續補但是本席希望在你鼓勵購買電動機車以及增建能源補充設施的部分你要去加強"},{"start":22855.319,"end":22883.025,"text":"你要去加強,因為112年絕對沒有你預算數以及你預計的這個達標,所以去研議,哪裡不好的趕快去改善好不好?一定要趕快去努力,因為我們不希望年輕的孩子我們鼓勵他騎電動車,但是呢他要修車沒有地方,他要加這個電池沒有地方,這樣子對我們年輕人來講是不公平的,對於社會的淨零碳排也不公平的。"},{"start":22883.385,"end":22910.78,"text":"好不好我提出這個議題我會繼續追蹤請你把數字以及你改善的方案給本席沒有問題是不是沒有問題你要努力去做來院長電價要漲人心惶惶昨天我們跟部長在經濟委員會我也感謝藍綠白的委員全力的支持現階段330度以下民生不能漲院長部長有沒有告訴你下個月要漲價"},{"start":22912.48,"end":22936.711,"text":"下個月我們會開電價審議委員會 這個月要開啦 這個月要開抱歉 下個月要開 下個月要宣布說我好緊張欸對 不會啦 因為 不會 我想說 不會長喔 不是你不用緊張 那我們在所有的電話電費調整的過程當中都會按照一定的計畫會考慮到 什麼計畫 就是一定的 署長沒告訴你嗎"},{"start":22937.811,"end":22943.993,"text":"平均漲幅10%欸,創價歷史新高欸,從來沒有330度以下的還要...你聽不聽講,我好緊張,我的夜市怎麼辦啊,330度以下還要漲,會漲嗎?會不會漲?"},{"start":22956.853,"end":22979.07,"text":"這要讓店駕審議委員會來看看他的公平性不要緊張不要緊張我們會很精細的來做相關的這個調整時間到了中旬下旬就要開了他們送出來的資料就是要漲330度的民生用電要漲你知道這個訊息嗎"},{"start":22980.331,"end":22987.576,"text":"省議委員會還沒有做決定之前你知道經濟部送給省議委員會的方案嗎?部長還沒告訴你?"},{"start":22987.576,"end":22993.04,"text":"院長不會知道方案 難怪你不會緊張啊 我知道方案我很緊張啊 昨天部長說 330度以下要轉"},{"start":22998.442,"end":22998.902,"text":"這一句話的原創人"},{"start":23015.913,"end":23043.562,"text":"所以拜託我深深的拜託你我拜託你我因為我們在基層我們知道民生非常的痛苦薪資沒漲通膨的很嚴重你要一漲連330度的民生都漲你知道嗎你影響的產業會多少你的配套做好了沒有請教院長如果真如經濟部所送出來給審議委員會的你知道嗎你有將配套做好嗎請做說明"},{"start":23044.431,"end":23062.088,"text":"我們有相關的配套當然有而且很多的我剛才講過我們會很精準的來調整而且會考慮到才我拜託你330度以下我給你求好不好不能漲現階段不能漲啊你到我們夜市去看看啦"},{"start":23066.786,"end":23073.391,"text":"國內的內需,昨天我給部長,部長還笑,我說你不要笑,我們已經很痛苦了,已經告訴我要漲多少了。"},{"start":23090.264,"end":23106.656,"text":"我可以回答嗎?我要在這裡很慎重地講,電費的調整一定會考慮到民生物資的需要,然後會考慮到使得物價也能夠不受到很大的影響,並且在不同的產業"},{"start":23107.857,"end":23111.139,"text":"你都會考慮到,謝謝院長你的回答我們的這個國防會主委在前前天我邀請他來做業務報告的時候電價漲的三大原則"},{"start":23135.567,"end":23162.932,"text":"穩定物價,你贊同吧。照顧民生,你贊同吧。兼顧產業,你贊同吧。就是這三個原則,所以拜託。按照這三個原則,好不容易行政院統一版本。所以在這樣的一個情況之下,330度以下,我還是深刻的、非常誠意的拜託院長,330度以下的民生用電現階段不得漲,你可不可以答應我?"},{"start":23163.854,"end":23182.262,"text":"我一向尊重專業然後需要用專業的評估才能夠知道多少所以為什麼講電價審議委員會而且電價審議委員會這樣的機制也是行之多年當我們拒絕了專業只看個人的喜好來訂定電價是不合適的"},{"start":23183.943,"end":23202.577,"text":"本席具體要求這個議題我們有兩個結論第一個本席要求代表民意民生用電330度以下請現階段不可漲第二個你要漲的任何的相關的產業你的配套措施必須要拿出來好不好好不好第一件事情我不能夠答應"},{"start":23204.313,"end":23219.768,"text":"因為這個就是要尊重電價審議委員會,你不尊重專業,您個人的想法。我,我有權利要求,你有權利怎麼做,但是拜託以民生為主好不好,謝謝,你們兩位請回答。本席再請教,本席再請教,院長"},{"start":23221.13,"end":23246.169,"text":"個人弊傷呢,如果成為詐團的人頭呢,那這個目前是無法可管。 所以我給這個功課,我給這個功課。因為3月1號開始針對防堵銀行人頭戶的洗錢防治法新規定上路了。 這個我們非常的歡喜。但是如果對於個人弊傷的成為詐團人頭的部分呢,目前還是無解。 所以我具體要求,具體要求。"},{"start":23247.19,"end":23274.281,"text":"那麼因為詐騙集團如果是以加幣貨幣的錢包方式攜帶出去張款出去那我們也沒法可管你拼命點頭我也感謝所以我要拜託金管會這一邊你們要趕快去研議針對於關務署法務部金管會針對於這個個人幣的部分是不是納入在我們洗錢防治法裡頭請做說明"},{"start":23274.881,"end":23291.985,"text":"委員跟您報告有一家個人幣商被檢舉,他沒有申報洗錢房子,政局罰款了,所以不是沒有法可管,那當然洗房法或未來相關的法規是不是納入﹖他有法可是洗船法沒有啊,他如果用這樣子的高價然後帶出去你怎麼辦呢,你們再去研議好不好﹖"},{"start":23294.766,"end":23316.524,"text":"關於這三個部分,院長在這裏,你的官務署,你的法務部,你的財政部,你的金管會都要去研議方案,好不好?研議方案給本席,謝謝。接下來本席要請教警務人員的身心健康。守護人民的保姆院長,你非常人心人數啊。我看到數字要流淚,2014年到2023年,我們有52位警員自殺。"},{"start":23322.574,"end":23339.421,"text":"我們又看到2016年數字是最多。我們又看到二十歲到二十九歲呢是占最多。這都是伯母的心肝寶貝勒。要培養出一個員警這麼優秀。二十歲到二十九歲是最多。"},{"start":23340.66,"end":23364.856,"text":"我們又看到自殺的部分呢20到29歲我說最多什麼3乘340到49歲這個2乘5在這樣的情況之下22個員警在近4年自殺的我們有列冊的只有5個所以本期具體要求我們應該要提高警務人員高風險對象識別的能力"},{"start":23366.758,"end":23382.545,"text":"那麼針對於心理輔導的這個預算,你應該編給你旁邊站的部長,對不對?你要馬而跑,你必須要馬而游草吃啊。你今天22個員警自殺,只有5個有列車輔導過,怎麼辦?我很難過。"},{"start":23386.704,"end":23392.611,"text":"我也是很難過啦,看到這樣的資訊我相當的痛心。所以我想我們確實需要有...請部長、院長,我說他是很人心人數的人,用數字直話亮話告訴我們問題點在哪裡。"},{"start":23403.604,"end":23419.937,"text":"我們去年實際上這方面的預算已經有增加,但是我們會繼續來精進,來落實這個自殺的防止。好不好?部長,院長全力支持,我們一起來讓我們的員警他能夠放心,讓他的家屬能夠放心啊,對不對?22個自殺,只有5個是列車輔導。"},{"start":23425.061,"end":23438.255,"text":"所以我們做的還不夠我們還有勞動當然努力了但是還有精進的所以首先預算要給他們增加好不好心理諮商心理輔導的部分"},{"start":23439.155,"end":23440.716,"text":"以上剛剛本席所建議的以及需要的資料請詳實給本席。謝謝"},{"start":23466.331,"end":23493.071,"text":"謝謝楊委員求願質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第51號林委員淑芬質詢。院長各位大家午安。是不是請我們陳建仁院長。麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"},{"start":23498.414,"end":23523.56,"text":"臨委員午安恭喜你當選連任還有婦女節快樂謝謝大家一起快樂我今天有點不太快樂是因為我其實這陣子蠻忙的那我們家是經常煮飯的我自己週末也經常煮那我很喜歡煮咖哩因為呢因為他煮了一鍋大家可以吃一整天對職業婦女來講他很方便"},{"start":23525.58,"end":23548.946,"text":"我就想說該不會我也中標了吧然後我因為很忙嘛所以沒時間去看那今天在早上要出門的時候終於拿出來看發現的確我的咖哩粉是寄生公司的就是整個案件一起頭的那一個但是很不幸的然後我們要去這個我買的超市換貨也不能退"},{"start":23550.366,"end":23575.907,"text":"而且我的那一批貨的到期日子不在不合法的公告的名單裡面沒有但我今天要再跟你講這個是因為作為一個家庭主婦作為一個食安的關心的人其實我們真的很在乎可是我們更在乎說因為我們知道食品的產業很寬很廣很多很難一一管得齊全"},{"start":23576.647,"end":23593.095,"text":"可是我們唯一要求是說至少出問題了政府要好好的管吧這個這麼卑微的需求至少出問題了要好好的管可是呢今天我們看到業者非常膽大包天在哪裡你知道嗎"},{"start":23594.98,"end":23619.936,"text":"業者部長在這裡,部長當時跟大家報告去年的12月11以後我們的邊境查驗從10%一路走到20、30、50到去年的12月11邊境的查驗是100%的查驗了可是我們從衛福部的網頁裡面看到了即便是100%的查驗"},{"start":23622.978,"end":23637.086,"text":"這業者還可以在1月6號今年就是你宣布100%查驗的時候他在今年仍然進口了這一張單是13696公斤下一張1月28號仍然進口了9000公斤再下一張"},{"start":23644.554,"end":23664.739,"text":"在另外一張第三張是一樣是1月6號仍然進口了15000公斤這同一群業者那我的意思是說我都要100%查了他還不怕仍然進口了4萬公斤的含有蘇丹紅的辣椒粉"},{"start":23665.569,"end":23681.97,"text":"所以這個業者簡直是膽大包天,囂張至極嘛。那我們後來又查到這個業者他在我們的登錄溯源系統,因為我們都講說不會再有系統性的風險了,因為我們有溯源追蹤系統。"},{"start":23683.071,"end":23709.255,"text":"這個事件告訴我們,溯源追蹤系統呢,它都要被登錄。它登錄上游跟誰買的,你知道嗎?我們食藥署也很認真的禁止了這家廠商不准再賣到台灣來。可是它禁止的是一家船務公司叫Kevin Shipping。它禁止了一家不是食品廠商是Kevin Shipping。它不是食品公司,它是他們的船務公司。"},{"start":23710.816,"end":23736.172,"text":"而我們政府禁止了船務公司可是他真正的供貨商是誰呢是這裡我們這九家我們先看這一頁你看這一頁都是同一個集團他們說他們是親戚你會相信2631號1號一樓和二樓他是透天厝同一棟房子裡面透天厝喔登記了五家公司"},{"start":23737.639,"end":23765.74,"text":"二、六、五也是偷天錯,都是住宅、民宅啦,裡面登記了三家公司。他們文龍東路同一個負責人,還有另外一個,他們還有工廠,也在文龍東路,但是是31號,我查出來的。好,他們有一家人頭公司叫做龍海統計,院長看得到嗎?龍海統計。好,我們看一下,我們到中國的公司登記網去看。"},{"start":23767.374,"end":23785.936,"text":"龍海統計負責人一模一樣跟剛才高雄的那9家名單登記龍海統計的負責人一模一樣成立日期1997他做了營業範圍加工蔬菜水果加工我的意思是說"},{"start":23788.032,"end":23813.972,"text":"我們海關邊境是我們源頭管理的最核心。第一個他隨便登登。第二個他登載不實。登載了船運公司可是我們禁止掉了船運公司不能夠再輸入東西進來。可是他真正的輸入到臺灣來的不是Kevin Shipping是叫做龍海同濟叫Eastrong"},{"start":23814.935,"end":23839.985,"text":"其實你們也有查到,所以這個是一個非常大的破口。 這個制度絕對要從源頭改進。 我們有燈,然後要燈載不實,但是抓到才那個。 現在你抓到他了,叫他公出上游是誰,公布齊全。 叫他公出下游流向我的那一瓶胡椒粉不在他們下游流向之列。"},{"start":23841.129,"end":23865.031,"text":"下游流向批號也都對不起來所以這是一個好機會我們絕對要徹底的革新院長給我們一個源頭管理是一個真正的有管理的源頭管理然後這一種登載隨隨便便填一下然後用源頭公司一次9家登記在同一個地址"},{"start":23867.032,"end":23875.881,"text":"這個問題很嚴重對確實我謝謝委員能夠查到這樣的情況我想未來我們在整個登記的這個過程還有這個廠商的這個查驗的這個過程當中一旦有該"},{"start":23888.691,"end":23898.663,"text":"你知道還有一個什麼問題嗎?他查驗了你百分之一百要查驗他查驗四萬公斤三批不合格他不用付出成本"},{"start":23899.224,"end":23915.23,"text":"因為他只要退官退出去中國再給他們龍海銅器再包裝一下再重新再傳運再過來再送也沒有關係因為他沒有成本除了傳運運費一下其他他只要退官貨還在以後"},{"start":23916.17,"end":23917.191,"text":"如果有這種狀況,一律銷毀,不准退官。"},{"start":23936.343,"end":23959.239,"text":"他才會怕,做不到事情會嚇死,如果叫人抓到,要告訴大家沒了錢沒錢,沒有成本下次敢再犯,而且原貨退出關在公海上繞一圈馬上又進來,你看,又進來,這個就是事實擺在眼前,所以一定要銷毀,一定要叫他們不敢再這樣子做。"},{"start":23962.126,"end":23963.328,"text":"三重蘆洲是一個完整的島嶼"},{"start":23980.987,"end":24007.201,"text":"東側被淡水河包覆西側是被疏洪道包覆所以三重、蘆洲是一個島那我們蘆洲是在島的最內側所以蘆洲人要出蘆洲大概要經過三重然後去連外或者是要經過橋樑才能連外而現在蘆洲人的連外所有的道路服務水準就是我不曉得你知不知道ABCDE"},{"start":24009.002,"end":24028.096,"text":"他是最差的F等級的道路服務水準。如果有GHI的話他應該在更後面。但是呢我現在要講的不是單純現況這麼糟而已。因為呢行政院在111年的8月合訂了淡北道路的工程。"},{"start":24029.127,"end":24048.047,"text":"但是呢你們卻突然跑出一個議題是我們非常的措手不及我一定要代表盧州人在這裡表示我們非常的錯愕因為呢你們行政院提出了一個新北市政府要求新北市政府要去規劃要新設關渡新橋"},{"start":24050.245,"end":24071.625,"text":"新橋要跟淡北道路銜接的配套,它是作為淡北道路施作的配套方案。然後目的是要做什麼?為什麼要馬上做這個關渡新橋呢?因為要降低淡北道路通車以後,車流會讓大渡路的車流增加。所以為了紓解"},{"start":24072.466,"end":24097.509,"text":"大渡路的車流關渡新橋要把它疏解導到我們五谷蘆洲這裡叫做103縣道在這個103縣道經過八里龍米路五谷的蘇洪北路成泰路等等我要告訴你這裡的服務水準現況現況現況是F級水準而且是大塞車"},{"start":24099.346,"end":24127.475,"text":"他們本來想說這裡的道路水準服務水準會提升會變好因為淡江大橋通車以後未來因為大家要去這個北海岸都要經過我們103縣道嘛通車以後會疏解所以根據呢淡江大橋集體聯絡道路建設核定本的推估到時候如果淡江大橋通車我們的F級的水準會服務水準會提升到B級"},{"start":24128.905,"end":24148.012,"text":"也就是呢往北一次大概3835輛一個小時的車會下降到1922輛將近2000輛但是呢我們也看到如果關渡新橋將大渡路的車流引到103號線道來這個市區道路來"},{"start":24154.262,"end":24168.735,"text":"我們的服務水準會變成稀到低,又會變很差。大概往南的部分會增加2300,它的那個一小時的車流量會從1900到會變成2300到"},{"start":24172.859,"end":24190.878,"text":"兩千八所以他們預計一個小時要引進將近381到889輛一個小時要增加將近900輛的車子進來到時候我們的大陸服務水準又會變成低不要說這個是以零為禍"},{"start":24192.159,"end":24220.888,"text":"你要紓解台北市大渡路的車潮?你要讓我們五股人、新北人變成二等公民嗎?這個我們在地已經飽受塞車之苦,好不容易期待淡江大橋通車以後我們要舒緩一下、喘息一下。結果你看我們,我們還要去負責幫台北市的大渡路紓解,我們還要繼續塞,這不公平。但是院長有方案。"},{"start":24222.401,"end":24251.622,"text":"因為呢本來我們就一個方案你看這個方案關渡新橋他其實是有一個方案是因為他本來還預計要打通觀音山隧道直接穿越觀音山銜接64如果你關渡新橋的施作可以跟這個穿越觀音山的隧道同時進行不要分階段你才不會讓我們在飽受這種塞車之苦啊"},{"start":24252.395,"end":24267.133,"text":"所以我們在講說你們來跟我們說我們未來會要開闢這個隧道連接64可是我們不要講第二階段因為你們談的是說下一階段你們要先開橋下一階段才要開隧道"},{"start":24267.734,"end":24294.481,"text":"我們不能接受你只開橋把我們當成第二階段第二階段遙遙無期不打緊只開橋我們103號線道又要塞得很嚴重所以你們在合定版本淡北道路合定版本你們你們又講說開這個橋18億我們全部都補助可是重點不是你們補助你們還要求淡北道路跟關路新橋要同時完工"},{"start":24295.681,"end":24305.151,"text":"我們也沒有辦法接受你們同時完工沒有搭配穿越觀音山的隧道以臨為禍真的是太欺負我們了老實說"},{"start":24306.633,"end":24307.513,"text":"部長,您有沒有要講的?"},{"start":24328.719,"end":24346.455,"text":"的確淡北道路當時因為在這個北投地方他們有談到這個會把車子帶進來所以有這個方案所以北投人比較大漢,我們六九人比較小漢現在關渡新橋跟街64我們現在請新北市政府再做一個可行性評估"},{"start":24347.076,"end":24359.45,"text":"沒有,你們只做關路新橋的評估,沒有六六四隧道。 有有有,有六六四的評估。那你們不是同一階段,因為你們告訴我們說,這個沒關係你們會叫他們去評估,可是你們其實有私底下來溝通有講啦,為什麼不能同時做啦。"},{"start":24362.273,"end":24380.59,"text":"因為怕觀音山隧道穿越工程環評要拖很多時間所以你們為了環評拖時間所以不敢說同時同階段要去進行那如果在這種狀況已經講了111到現在才兩年了我跟委員報告115年的時候淡江大橋會完工"},{"start":24381.451,"end":24403.978,"text":"所以有很多也會跑到65上去所以64上去啦所以我是覺得說這個做可行性到底未來要不要做要看可行性那如果沒有64你說64未來道路的服務水準也會飽和啦當然江大橋完工以後也會飽和64也會塞車64更是我們五谷和蘆洲人連外道路非常重要也會塞車"},{"start":24432.87,"end":24433.991,"text":"接下來我們請登記第52號王委員育敏質詢"},{"start":24447.943,"end":24457.873,"text":"謝謝韓院長,也謝謝韓院長送的花,也祝福在座的女閣員、婦女節快樂。那我們是不是有請我們陳院長。再請陳院長,不許。王委員午安,恭喜你當選立委,還有祝你婦女節快樂。謝謝院長。"},{"start":24470.041,"end":24488.372,"text":"院長因為今天是婦女節剛剛林淑芬委員也有說她作為一個媽媽她很關心的是食安問題那我現在擔任外環委員會的召委我也很關心這個食安的問題事實上禮拜一我們在委員會就針對蘇丹紅事件我們其實召開了這個專案的檢討會議"},{"start":24491.494,"end":24517.012,"text":"那我要問一下這個院長你對現在蘇丹紅事件的掌握有多少?你知不知道現在進口這個含有蘇丹紅辣椒粉最大的進口商是哪一家?那個寶新寶新嗎?對你認為他是初犯還是壘犯?寶新以前好像曾經也有輸入過一些不合格的這個"},{"start":24519.811,"end":24537.889,"text":"我們來看一下本席現在就要揭發這個保新他是累犯也是慣犯那他產生的問題是什麼呢有一家跟他登記在同一個地址的公司叫做配軍有限公司"},{"start":24539.15,"end":24547.015,"text":"這兩家通通登記在同一個地址,而且這兩家有一個共通性是什麼?"},{"start":24547.015,"end":24557.262,"text":"這個配軍他在2018年的2月份就曾經被驗出他進口的辣椒粉含有蘇丹紅色素4號,當時驗出來的是4號。"},{"start":24560.544,"end":24580.592,"text":"所以這一家配軍已經有案例在先。另外一個在2019年10月他的黑胡椒原理也是有不得驗出的農藥。所以這一家配軍有案在先。然後他們兩家公司同時還在2018年走私賺頭。"},{"start":24582.076,"end":24597.828,"text":"然後也被這個這個抓到了這個法院其實有判緩刑所以你可以看到這一次的保新跟配軍他們其實有共同的關係都在同一家我要求你們要再去查"},{"start":24599.009,"end":24620.581,"text":"剛剛我們看到高雄的是同一個家族同一個企業登記在同一個地址而現在看到的寶新跟佩君又是在同一個地址而且他們是之前就已經有犯案記錄了之前就有不良記錄了這個院長你們有掌握嗎這個我想我們一定認真的再去清查"},{"start":24621.877,"end":24638.973,"text":"本席要求立刻去清查而從這當中我看到了一個問題就是這一次的我們的這個含有蘇丹紅的辣椒粉進到臺灣來他為什麼這一次的風暴這麼的嚴重是因為我們在前端我們缺乏了預警"},{"start":24640.134,"end":24664.999,"text":"你看2018年就有這樣的一個事件那我要問的是當時2018年發現了有沒有針對這樣的廠商經濟部有沒有針對這樣的廠商再進一步的去監控他後續進口的食品有沒有問題這樣的一個記錄在這個法院有判刑有這樣的一個記錄有沒有回饋給食藥署有沒有到我們的衛福部來"},{"start":24665.979,"end":24695.639,"text":"我覺得我們現在為什麼會產生這樣的一個食安風暴是我們自己沒有預警的措施如果當時針對發生事件的這個配軍跟保薪就已經有所警覺列為高風險列為應該要仔細去查核的對象的話我覺得不會放任他今天做大變成是全國最大的這個辣椒粉的進口商而且進口的量這麼的大"},{"start":24696.98,"end":24722.452,"text":"一直到去年的12月整個攔下來百分之百逐批才真的攔下來但是院長知道嗎根據食藥署現在自己所查獲的63批的他現在是往前推半年而已63批光是63批就查出了18批的不合格品這樣的一個不合格率將近三成"},{"start":24723.766,"end":24742.624,"text":"而去年一整年我們進口多少從中國大陸進口多少辣椒粉你知道嗎高達超過200公斤212公斤如果你用這樣的一個不合格比率回去推算的話這個數字很驚人他是超過60萬公斤"},{"start":24744.445,"end":24764.292,"text":"議員長"},{"start":24764.946,"end":24792.972,"text":"你認為這個問題要怎麼樣可以有效就是更快速的讓這樣的一個風暴可以落幕盡快的把這些未爆彈再找出來到目前為止食藥署今天早上開記者會他們還是覺得還有未爆彈他們的推估是正確的如果以他們現在找出來這不合格率這麼高的話那去年去年的上半年進來的這一些裡面很多都是漏網之魚啊"},{"start":24793.712,"end":24813.899,"text":"那怎麼辦?怎麼處理?院長,來你說。 在對於這個已經發生的這些事情當然再要繼續的認真的去追查。 未來齁,其實我們已經有請衛福部提出一個未來經濟的計畫只要任何廠商他只要檢驗出來有不合格的這一個大家關切的這個化學藥品的時候"},{"start":24814.318,"end":24834.663,"text":"就馬上這個足比檢查以外就馬上禁止他來進口但是你剛才提到的新的事證是說有很多都登記在同一個柱子的這些公司未來在盤點的過程當中應該把所有的同一個柱子的這個公司所有的進口的產品應該要更完整的來做"},{"start":24835.143,"end":24835.163,"text":"委員："},{"start":24851.2,"end":24874.646,"text":"轉來轉去,輪來輪去,這確實是一個我們應該再繼續精進加強的地方。謝謝委員提供了這寶貴的意見。好,部長。我要點出,院長要點出一個問題,就是你們現在有一件事情是行政院沒有做好的,而是行政院應該做的。從蘇丹紅事件到現在,風暴已經超過一個月了。但是到目前為止,"},{"start":24875.686,"end":24894.105,"text":"是不是行政院都沒有成立任何一個跨部會的小組每週盯進度每週好好的跨部會大家橫向的聯繫來追蹤進度以我剛剛講的例子今天食藥署發現了任何事情如果你有一個跨部會的小組法務部就應該動起來啊"},{"start":24895.706,"end":24912.807,"text":"法務部就應該要立刻去追查這個剛剛林淑芬委員還在提到的這個事件是我們在未完委員會裡面開會他揭發出來的但是法務部什麼時候才查什麼時候才動起來法務部是今天吧是不是"},{"start":24914.629,"end":24943.351,"text":"跟委員報告一下,我們相關的地檢署啊,早就已經分案在偵查,而且要申請法院啊,計壓獲准。有壓了兩個人,包括了新北地檢署,包括了雲林地檢署,還有高雄地檢署。有三個地檢署在高檢署的指揮統合之下,都全部動起來了。我問的是什麼時候才動起來?很早就動起來,所以才有生壓獲准,才有交保。高雄是什麼時候?高雄比較晚。"},{"start":24944.418,"end":24969.361,"text":"但是最早雲林還有新北我今天要講的就是,爆發這麼大規模的食安危機為什麼到現在,行政院竟然還沒有組成一個跨部會的指揮小組?我想齁,在這個行政院是不是現在立刻組起來,可以嗎?我們的食安辦實際上都一直在掌握相關的這一些食安的問題"},{"start":24971.312,"end":24974.637,"text":"這一件事情因為剛才有很多的事證發現確實是廠商、布華廠商確實有很這個嚴密的這樣的一個"},{"start":24983.12,"end":25004.999,"text":"的一個違法的情況我們在中央的我們來成立一個小組來同仇。 院長我要求你立刻成立一個小組而這個成績不能太低就是由至少是副院長我想副院長也很有能力可以來指揮各部會把這一個案子儘速的查清"},{"start":25005.499,"end":25015.007,"text":"我剛剛講過這個數字還有很多還在市面上流竄所以你要在最快的時間之內落幕你必須要一個強而有力的指揮讓各部會真正動起來這件事情才有辦法處理跟解決"},{"start":25021.513,"end":25049.301,"text":"要不然不是靠立法委員來,立法委員舉報一個你們辦一個舉報一個辦一個這樣就叫做被動跟消極我相信如果整個行政院願意立刻動起來的話這一個蘇丹紅事件的風暴可以在最快的時間落幕如果沒有這樣子做的話再查一個月還查不完為什麼這個數字真的很龐大我們行政院來組一個跨部會的小組馬上來做好謝謝院長我們來組這樣的一個小組那我接下來就要問各部會了"},{"start":25049.801,"end":25076.894,"text":"我們的食安的這個匯報裡面大家都是有責任的但是到目前為止我看到我們衛福部部長最辛苦了還戴著口罩然後在委員會裡面所有的事情好像他們一間挑然後就是這個整個食藥署來做但是這件事情太龐雜了我以下我要就教幾位部長們在食安風暴當中你們到底在做什麼我先請教教育部部長"},{"start":25078.476,"end":25093.447,"text":"這一件事情涉及到學童的營養午餐的問題。結果我們發現呢第一時間出來之後教育部都沒有聲音學童的營養午餐也都沒有在管然後是各縣市政府"},{"start":25094.227,"end":25114.61,"text":"教育局或者是教育處他們自己先跳出來自己說為了學童的這個安全所以他們來進是教育局跟教育處先跳出來而且到昨天如果不是本席在委員會裡面要求這個部長要趕快行文給這個教育部要求全國一致的標準"},{"start":25115.231,"end":25125.004,"text":"你還是讓他個性歧視啊昨天第一時間的時候你就發現有些縣市說哎呀我們的縣市都沒有這個問題產品所以可以不用這個禁止"},{"start":25128.468,"end":25152.239,"text":"現成這個這個很多縣市是沒有跟進的誤判結果呢後來發現不對啊為什麼這個食藥署繼續公佈了急轉彎一急轉彎就說我們不只學校要進我們這個長照機構也要進我們這個相關的醫療機構也要進到目前為止我看到的是每一個縣市禁止的品項"},{"start":25153.399,"end":25181.281,"text":"跟單位都是不一致的教育部部長為什麼在第一時間什麼事情都沒有做在這件事情也太消極了吧學童的食安你不用把關嗎跟委員報告因為我們也將衛福部食藥署跟各縣市衛生局他們所做的當時就是有在檢查出不合格的這些相次在食藥署的這樣的一個專區裡面那麼這部分教育部也從食材平台裡面讓學校"},{"start":25186.58,"end":25198.148,"text":"因為當時並沒有到這麼全面的時候是希望他們在學校開菜單的時候一定要留意一下這些已經公佈違規的這些廠商所使用的這些食材"},{"start":25213.251,"end":25238.633,"text":"為什麼你們速度這麼慢呢?那我就問你,衛福部本期在昨天委員會就提了臨時提案,要求全國一致。昨天晚上9點衛福部把公文給教育部了,你今天批了沒?有沒有要求全國要一致?因為昨天衛福部學部長這邊提到可能在查緝的時間還要將近一個月,那這個時間教育部在昨天已經發函給所有縣市跟學校。"},{"start":25239.224,"end":25240.284,"text":"您有第一時間發函嗎?"},{"start":25240.284,"end":25263.933,"text":"是,昨天就發了。我希望這個教育部你們守護學童的時寒要動起來不要這麼的被動。我目前看到都是地方政府跑在前面了。那中央級的部長不可以這樣子啊。你應該是要做一個定調跟領導而不是讓地方政府跑在前面。那另外一個我問你,你現在品項部分你要進哪些品項?現在每一個縣市都還不一樣。有的進"},{"start":25264.873,"end":25270.26,"text":"昨天對於這個項字裡面這兩大項辣椒粉跟咖哩粉我們在昨天的公文裡面是這兩項"},{"start":25279.872,"end":25303.869,"text":"同意這兩項,那現在還有的縣市還跑出來有白胡椒粉,因為昨天也發現汙染了,那到底要怎麼做?委員這個巷次的部分,因為我們還是要跟這個衛福局這邊做…我要求你去研議,就是不要這個整個台灣然後就變成是多制,然後大家的步調不一,其實食安應該是一致的標準,這個是一個重大食安事件,我要求教育部要這樣做,好來你請回。"},{"start":25305.33,"end":25327.559,"text":"那我問一下這個法務部部長,你說你們主動偵辦了,那剛剛本席講的這個你要去查嗎?同一個地址,另外那家廠商要去查嗎?他如果有涉及到犯罪,我們一定檢察官一定會主動來查他之前已經涉及到了,你認為有可疑你們也應該主動去偵辦啊,你們偵辦不可以是太被動啊,不能靠立法委員辦案吧"},{"start":25328.559,"end":25346.584,"text":"我們會跟地方的食品檢驗局相關的人員都保持密切的聯繫,我們有一個聯繫的平台,隨時都可以保持資料的交流。我希望這件事情法務部要主動性而且要硬起來,針對這一些還甚至敢去篡改報告的廠商,絕對是要重罰好不好。"},{"start":25348.665,"end":25375.075,"text":"好來接下來我要請經濟部經濟部轄下有這麼多的食品廠這一次爆發這麼大的一個事件請問經濟部部長在這一次食安風暴當中你做了什麼因為這一次是進口的問題不是國內所以國內的部分目前是沒有發現有任何問題那進口商是不是要自主的檢查等等那衛福部食藥署這邊有去"},{"start":25375.874,"end":25376.394,"text":"我希望經濟部"},{"start":25394.946,"end":25407.744,"text":"到昨天在委員會討論的時候有一些購物平台還有就是他自己跟上游買來在加工的這一些業者他自己也成立網購的平台他們的商品繼續賣並沒有下架"},{"start":25410.347,"end":25433.606,"text":"那如果這些所有的事情通通都要由衛福部一個單位來承擔這個事件會辦得非常的緩慢但是經濟部這個他們本來就是歸你們管你們可以去要求啊所以這個部分我覺得經濟部也沒有動起來啊你們應該要主動來協助衛福部而不是被動的等著說啊你有什麼需要你跟我講我再來昨天在這個委員會裡面"},{"start":25435.427,"end":25454.152,"text":"就有委員要求要去查這些廠商結果我們部長說哇你經濟部阿就是我每一個子公司我都去查我都變成經濟部阿那這代表經濟部你作為主管機關你要動起來阿這個部份部長你是不是可以承諾趕快交進來這個查驗的行列需要我們協助的我們一定會來做"},{"start":25455.632,"end":25475.123,"text":"另外一個在2013年曾經發生毒澱粉事件我相信部長你一直長期都在經濟部你應該知道當時的毒澱粉事件為了盡快讓消費者可以安心他知道說哪一些品項這個廠商有自主去驗然後他的這個產品是沒有問題的"},{"start":25476.544,"end":25498.667,"text":"當時就做了一件事情是要求這些有使用到澱粉產品的不管你是珍珠奶茶你是霸丸你都要自己一個是你要求上面你的供應商給你一個保證證明他的澱粉是沒有問題的然後他就可以貼出這個公告說本店不使用含有酸氯酸的這個澱粉"},{"start":25500.248,"end":25529.167,"text":"那這個的好處是什麼一個就是你讓這一些廠商也動起來自己自清嘛就是說我這個東西是沒有問題的另外一個是讓他把這個壓力就是往上你要供應原料給我你要出具一個安全的證明啊如果我們有這樣的層層把關那我們的食安的漏洞就可以補起來啊那當時那個措施後來就是有止血因為他還加上了行政手段就是你今天貼出自清之後就要代表說你這個是沒有問題喔"},{"start":25530.208,"end":25552.893,"text":"那這個後端市場繼續查就是它還是持續抽驗如果抽驗到你又貼公告抽驗到你這個產品還是有問題那就開罰那這個就是一個更快速的引進你經濟部這邊的力量然後讓這整個風暴可以盡快的度過因為昨天部長也說我們有八成的辣椒是來自中國大陸"},{"start":25553.553,"end":25571.502,"text":"又不可能完全叫大家不用使用辣椒的產品市面上那麼多的麻辣鍋加辣的產品你不可能要求廠商都不要使用但在這段風暴當中如果你要使用那你就要告訴消費者說你的是安全的而且真的是檢驗安全的可以去做嗎"},{"start":25573.843,"end":25591.054,"text":"這我們已經開始動起來了,已經在做。我們除了藉由這個所謂的非東不可的系統告訴這些廠商之外,接下來下一步我們會找這個公協會,相關的公協會我們再再度的去重申那這個自主檢驗的這個。"},{"start":25593.035,"end":25617.373,"text":"我問一下這個院長,你贊不贊成本席就是今天所建議的這個措施一定要也要同步去做,因為你現在整個查緝是由上而下,發現到哪裡查到哪裡,那我們現在是可以由下而上。對,我是覺得top-down還有bottom-up這兩個都是必要的,才能夠很完整的去讓這整個"},{"start":25619.202,"end":25626.775,"text":"問題未來這個整個問題的查驗還有確保他的安全性才能夠達到更有效果。"},{"start":25627.619,"end":25650.208,"text":"好,所以院長你也贊成嘛,那我就要求你今天所承諾的這個專案小組裡面要好好去督導而且要落實,因為這一次蘇丹紅的事件我覺得讓很多的家長也不安心,國人也不安心,現在只要看到紅色的東西都會覺得心裡怕怕的,而現在最新的是不是紅色的東西,白胡椒粉他這個青辣椒粉他也加,"},{"start":25651.269,"end":25652.37,"text":"今天已經在抽"},{"start":25672.711,"end":25672.731,"text":"﹚經濟部"},{"start":25699.298,"end":25719.731,"text":"就是到2025那原則上是2026的時候達到20%但是你現在是9.9對不對9.5去年底的時候那你的光電呢你的光電你現在缺口是多少光電目前是超過12GB"},{"start":25722.176,"end":25725.239,"text":"所以你還缺多少?你目標是20GW吧?"},{"start":25725.239,"end":25735.889,"text":"20對,還有8個GIGA要追,是。那我這邊還低估了。如果我這邊低估了,我現在講2.15GW,大概是還要在210座大巨蛋。"},{"start":25737.066,"end":25761.736,"text":"這麼大那你如果是8的話那還要再乘以3倍那可能是將近超過500座大巨蛋的這麼大的一個面積那現在呢我就要讓這個院長來看一下本席不反對這個光電太陽能光電但是如果你的光電的發展已經影響到了我們的生態跟永續那這個就叫做本末倒置"},{"start":25762.276,"end":25784.462,"text":"我們來看一下這一些現在出現的這一些亂象。第一個,我們原本餘電共生其實是以農業為主。但結果我們現在的餘電共生餘溫重變。我們現在餘電共生公告的面積,它佔比,佔你的養殖面積通通都是七八成。"},{"start":25786.21,"end":25814.479,"text":"這麼大的一個比例有可能嗎?你如果是以養殖為主,院長你有看到這個問題嗎?如果是以養殖為主結果你現在公告出來的這些面積都是將近七八成還養得成嗎?而且過去還發生這些文革暴斃根本也沒有辦法然後我過去在地方政府服務的時候也發現他們反映說現在養殖的餘貨越來越少"},{"start":25815.661,"end":25829.891,"text":"這是不是因為我們餘溫重變,然後有些農民、漁民他可能就沒有要,因為這個價格比較好,所以讓那個量產也下降了,連砂板魚都變貴了,院長你知道嗎?"},{"start":25832.473,"end":25855.213,"text":"應該不是委員講的這樣所以委員講八成分母指的是什麼這個我再跟委員釐清但是比如說在嘉義台南的漁電工生其實從去年開始有收穫之後其實收穫的情形非常好那我其實也非常樂意帶委員去看那個漁電工生而且那個有太陽光電之後他其實可以防寒或者太熱"},{"start":25856.034,"end":25856.855,"text":"我跟委員說明第一個部分就是我們"},{"start":25872.588,"end":25873.528,"text":"你們的說法就是都沒有問題,公民團體的誤解囉?"},{"start":25902.683,"end":25925.933,"text":"對我們沒有我要跟委員說明在剛開始的這第一年的時候可能漁民本身在種植的時候可能沒有沒有做調整那現在養殖的這些調整的技術已經到位了以後那現在包括您剛才講的虱目魚本身的那個產量那是因為溫度的關係不是因為漁電漁電工程的關係這個部分我想我們都有相關的資訊要求你們提供具體的數據因為你們的說法跟"},{"start":25928.234,"end":25928.334,"text":"另外一個﹚"},{"start":25951.513,"end":25975.001,"text":"坎數重電這個過去其實有很多團體關心那本席是看了覺得非常的心痛就是說以我們現在追求環境永續樹木對我們人類非常的重要但是我們現在為了追求光電它的這個鋪設率不惜坎數重電這是對的嗎"},{"start":25976.101,"end":25977.202,"text":"現在目前平定造林大概是1萬3000多公頃"},{"start":26003.661,"end":26020.923,"text":"那一萬三千多整大概分為三類,第一類就是它已經具有生態價值的,那這個部分我們不會,絕對不會去動它,反而會去加碼去讓它維護生態。第二個部分是它的林項是可以繼續成材的,那20年可能那個數目還不夠大,"},{"start":26021.423,"end":26044.51,"text":"如果他繼續在10年的時候我們也會給他獎勵那第三個才是林向不佳的部分那林向不佳的部分他未來會恢復農業生產之用所以到目前為止我們只針對這主要的這些林向的部分我們都不會去動他那只有少部分是針對土壤本身因為他林向不佳就是他土壤本身的地利是不好的"},{"start":26044.87,"end":26045.411,"text":"那本席秀出來這一張圖這個是零項不加嗎?"},{"start":26058.77,"end":26077.424,"text":"這個要去看實際的情形,我猜這個很多那個之前台廠的地,他因為那個當時打破關係,那個地不好,然後去種林,又沒有好好種,那那個樹木其實都長不大,所以那些的地其實也沒有辦法做很好的利用。"},{"start":26077.884,"end":26105.922,"text":"院長我想要提出來就是我們不能本末倒置我說過我沒有反對光電綠能也很好但是如果你是因為達不到你原來設定的目標而因此毀棄了一些的原則然後讓我們的生態也遭到破壞這個我反對接下來再看一張我覺得這是一個很荒謬的照片這是我到嘉義看到的情況"},{"start":26107.263,"end":26109.885,"text":"請問院長,站在光電板上面的這個是什麼?看得出來嗎?應該是鳥類吧?對。"},{"start":26117.335,"end":26137.62,"text":"我們如果發展到如此這般的程度要去鳥類的棲地我們還要佈滿了光電板本來它可以自由自在在那邊它可以抓魚它可以棲息但是為了追求我們的光電的這個整個的目標所以湖上面"},{"start":26138.26,"end":26161.603,"text":"可以鋪設這些光電板不考慮原來這邊有沒有鳥類這個就是我看到的荒謬的一個現象這個真的應該繼續存在嗎在嘉義這一些鳥類其實是非常珍貴的資源而人類我們現在用這樣的方式去破壞了它原來的棲地這樣真的是合理是正常的情況嗎"},{"start":26163.154,"end":26183.926,"text":"委員你這一張照片我是沒有看過但是在其他的這個案例當中我們是反而看到實際上當我們開始在相關的做這個觀點發展的時候有一些地方的棲地反而鳥類越來越多所以我是覺得以單一的照片來看"},{"start":26184.886,"end":26198.898,"text":"我需要瞭解說這個也是我跟委員報告我有去看過很多案場吼那他會鳥這麼多其實他是旁邊也有棲地那他有的時候就會飛到光電板上面那所以有的人說那是他原來的棲地部長有我糾正你"},{"start":26201.48,"end":26229.489,"text":"那個就是它原來的棲地是因為我們不夠要去開發所以連這樣的地方我們都不放過連這樣的一個原來很漂亮的湖我們都必須在上面鋪滿了光電板這個就是本期最後時間有限我只是要提醒我只是要提醒院長就是我們環境的永續跟我們綠能的發展它應該要取得一個平衡而不是失衡"},{"start":26230.049,"end":26258.945,"text":"如果有一些的面向我們已經去侵襲到我們原來鳥類的棲地有一些我們該保留的林地也因為必須鋪設光電板而必須砍伐這個必須要有一個糾正的機制要有一個監督的機制而現在我看不到行政院裡面有任何一個部門來擔任這樣的角色大家都爭著在鋪設光電板沒有人喊煞車沒有人出來糾正所以我希望我們的環境部要硬起來"},{"start":26259.645,"end":26261.026,"text":"接下來我們請登記第53位張委員宏祿質詢"},{"start":26304.781,"end":26318.488,"text":"謝謝。我請院長。再請陳院長備詢。總委員午安。恭喜你當選連任。謝謝謝謝。院長你請坐。其實有幾個問題。我想這個文化部的部長"},{"start":26333.789,"end":26345.214,"text":"我想請問一下我們那個國家兒童未來館現在目前的進度的落實到底是怎樣?那個國家兒童未來館他的這個建築設計標已經選出來了這個優勝的團體那我們預計是在114年完成這個建築設計然後希望工期5年在119年能夠完工是這樣那不過我請部長再來補充"},{"start":26361.52,"end":26389.495,"text":"報告委員,我想委員也有參加這個我們建築淨土的這個展示的開幕。目前當然是由國內建築師張馬龍跟日本建築師伊東豐雄的提案能夠獲得優勝。現在已經在進行這個我們相關的這個基礎設計已經開始在進行。預計會如期發包嗎?我們以這個作為目標,對我們希望不要再拖延,對所以我們其實對這個部分其實是努力在進行的。"},{"start":26390.185,"end":26390.325,"text":"另外,"},{"start":26415.455,"end":26416.275,"text":"新北市政府有提出可行性報告"},{"start":26438.285,"end":26458.695,"text":"﹗"},{"start":26459.684,"end":26468.228,"text":"已經預留了倒差的位置,其實表示新北市政府他也是想要做嘛,對不對?那想要做"},{"start":26469.369,"end":26493.65,"text":"如果現在他不積極就有兩個原因一個應該是錢一個應該是市長個人的想法而已我覺得其實經費也不多我上次的質詢部長跟院長也說如果需要中央會全力支持所以我是覺得應該要麻煩部長"},{"start":26494.673,"end":26519.256,"text":"我們要跟新北市政府要積極溝通這個為了地方的發展要就一次到位不要兩次施工是不是可以這個部長這個能夠跟新北市這邊能夠積極的溝通給他承諾我們如果給他承諾你不怕什麼責任都在他不然他現在他是說中央不給錢"},{"start":26521.53,"end":26549.782,"text":"好像我們已經請那個市政府來考慮納入這個規劃檢討。那這個部分我們請我們交通部這邊再跟市政府再來做溝通。我想這個是一個...那個我們事實上我知道那個委員已經我們在每一次審查會都跟他講那他現在就是說因為太阪經濟走得比較快他不想要讓這個社會"},{"start":26551.377,"end":26552.257,"text":"部長,我跟你講選舉已經過了是一個新的契機"},{"start":26578.908,"end":26599.711,"text":"在選前新北市政府他要脫我覺得有他的立場啦 對不對但為了市民的福祉這個我覺得不應該這樣我覺得我們應該要積極的去做他講那個理由你不覺得很瞎嗎 對不對這個行政的程序我也在行政機關十幾年啊"},{"start":26601.536,"end":26612.9,"text":"重大的決策如果你真的要全部的配合一個月兩個月也都可以完成了啊怎麼可能那個是理由勒所以我要在這邊我要請部長要跟院長說"},{"start":26615.114,"end":26618.016,"text":"我們已經在努力中,目前大概是這樣,已經把這個意見也都表達。"},{"start":26639.363,"end":26658.413,"text":"那我想說他有留下倒叉就是這個可行性都放在那個地方,不會一次把他打死。當然是不會一次打死,但有留下這個倒叉表示他也想。對,就是可以出去。對嘛,他也是想。對不對,所以我的意思是說應該盡快的讓這個。"},{"start":26662.439,"end":26677.005,"text":"對整個新北、對整個我們的板橋,然後一直到新莊,這我覺得是很多大家都想要的。我也不認為這個新北市市長他會一味的反對到底。"},{"start":26678.519,"end":26679.159,"text":"其實也要很感謝院長"},{"start":26706.894,"end":26735.163,"text":"我去年一直爭取這個敬老卡搭台鐵部長跟院長你們的這個大家的鼎力協助尤其那時候蘇院長跟我們整個這樣大家一起來很感謝那時候我上一次的總諮詢也有拜託我們的陳院長院長你看一下我們現在這個敬老卡搭台鐵各縣市"},{"start":26736.802,"end":26737.062,"text":"臨時提案委員"},{"start":26755.757,"end":26771.126,"text":"新北是30點那時候我們的薛部長跟我們陳院長說我拜託你們要去跟各縣市去協調看是不是全國有統一的規劃然後甚至是"},{"start":26772.748,"end":26800.418,"text":"用整年度來算,不用每個月來算。我不知道這個協調的如何了?這可能也可以請我們薛部長來回答因為這個敬老卡是地方發放委員很關心這個各縣市的老人的福利然後希望他能夠來達成高鐵但是那個點數的這個部分確實有需要來跟地方做協調"},{"start":26801.238,"end":26823.696,"text":"那協調的情況我請部長來說明跟委員報告齁那台鐵的這個部分的話大概已經有12個縣市等一下那個部長我知道你那個你簡單的說就好了你講你們有沒有去協調啊協調的怎麼樣這樣就好了"},{"start":26825.796,"end":26828.597,"text":"不不不,部長你聽啦齁"},{"start":26853.733,"end":26873.959,"text":"我認為這個累積跟用年度的這個我覺得這跟各縣市的財務狀況是不相干的因為整年度的預算都編在那裡了他沒有多花一毛錢只是呢他讓你不要用每個月去算用一整年度去算沒有花到任何多一毛錢這絕對是沒有的"},{"start":26875.621,"end":26903.097,"text":"這只是給市民的方便而已部長我覺得啦一個月到的話他剩餘的點數就收回去了我跟你講啦收回去是一件事但絕對沒有多花一毛錢那你到你如果是用整年度來算其實也不見得每個人都會用到完每一個縣市有他自己的考量部長其實啦只要有一個縣市開始做"},{"start":26904.133,"end":26904.693,"text":"我還想請問部長一件事"},{"start":26932.753,"end":26951.965,"text":"有委員在說這個很多人在囤慢性病的藥,他的資料從哪裡來的?確實有這種事嗎?委員說的是囤慢性病的藥,是指的是病人本身還是什麼醫療機構?有立委不是有這樣講嗎?"},{"start":26953.749,"end":26969.482,"text":"沒有,病人本身那個應該不叫做囤藥,因為他還是拿著廚房錢去拿藥的嘛,那只有可能說他沒有吃啦,結果就剩下來。但是如果說醫療機構或者是藥局的話,我認為不會有這種現象。"},{"start":26971.463,"end":27000.04,"text":"對阿,我認為不會有阿,所以如果不會有的話應該,我們應該大聲的說沒有這種事情阿,你不能讓人家齁,這裡給你潑一點,我要說人家給你潑一點墨水一點墨,潑久了整塊布就變黑了啦,我覺得不應該這樣啦,有馬上要出來說,我覺得是這樣啦好不好。部長,你先回去坐啦,我再看你的拿喔。最後啦齁,"},{"start":27003.571,"end":27019.228,"text":"我們前瞻計畫已經也8年了然後城鄉的均衡發展其實我們是有這個目標其實一個很簡單的議題很多人在吵財政收支劃分法什麼的"},{"start":27021.721,"end":27049.642,"text":"院長我覺得有一件事情我們可能要來思考行政區劃法或什麼的我覺得應該台灣已經那麼多年幾十年來了我們就單獨升格變成六都但其實整個區域均衡的發展我覺得我們並沒有去完全的去照顧到我給院長看一個圖"},{"start":27051.038,"end":27074.445,"text":"我們台中市跟苗栗的卓蘭,那個院長,台中市的電話的區碼是零四,那個院長,卓蘭鎮它是苗栗,卓蘭鎮的區域碼是多少,院長知道嗎?"},{"start":27076.092,"end":27104.817,"text":"應該不清楚啦我直接跟你說啦他是臨時他就是臨時啦那整個苗栗呢是037啦對不對你看喔整個卓蘭鎮他因為受到地形的影響啦大湖丘陵啦跟那個的這個影響他們其實很少去苗栗他們的生活圈都在台中都在東勢都在豐原連電話的區域嘛都是台中的"},{"start":27106.189,"end":27112.974,"text":" 那我們幾十年的發展下來了,我們不需要去檢討這個問題嗎?"},{"start":27112.974,"end":27129.045,"text":"這個我的生活圈就在這裡,連電話的區碼也在這裡,我的出入都在這裡了。 我們的行政區化還是在幾十年前的。 我一直覺得說,與其一直在炒行政區化,那個財政收支劃分法,"},{"start":27129.773,"end":27129.793,"text":"國務委員"},{"start":27149.98,"end":27177.963,"text":"這個內政部在曾經這個行政區劃法的時候曾經有到有送一些草案到貴院來但是都是預期沒有審查完畢那現在內政部也已經有請專家在進行我請部長簡單說明謝謝委員詮詢我想兩個部分第一個是行政區劃的確是有需要不過他需要更多的一個共識不管是由下而上還是由上而下這是第一點"},{"start":27178.584,"end":27193.275,"text":"其實大到縣市的一個行政區域化的一個調整還有小到里一個里的這個調整其實它背後還會涉及這個選舉區域的一個劃分所以我們會特別的慎重"},{"start":27194.113,"end":27222.254,"text":"不過這個大家也都在討論我想凝聚共識最重要謝謝我知道啦很多人怕去碰到這個就是說會扯到選舉選舉這個席次選舉的什麼的可是如果以從人民的角度來講我覺得應該到了檢討的角度你看喔光就台中喔現在的和平啦中橫已經不能通了他從藍頭出路欸那你覺得這個對和平"},{"start":27231.595,"end":27233.357,"text":"謝謝張委員紅路的質詢。也謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告院會現在休息10分鐘。謝謝。"},{"start":27382.069,"end":27382.129,"text":"本集完"},{"start":27851.89,"end":27873.441,"text":"報告院會現在我們繼續開會下面我們請登記第54位陳委員金威請行政院長麻煩請陳院長備詢"},{"start":27884.92,"end":27889.164,"text":"陳委員午安,恭喜你當選議委,還有祝你婦女節快樂。"},{"start":27890.86,"end":27912.989,"text":"謝謝院長。 其實院長是我長期以來非常敬佩的一屆前輩、大佬。 不敢當。 我也是您美國研究所的學妹。 對。 但我們今天各自在…… 你是Hopkins的光榮。 對。 所以我們今天各自在這樣子的位置,我們就希望把我們分內的工作做好,理性的問政、理性的討論。 好,像Hopkins的時候的討論一樣。 謝謝。"},{"start":27916.547,"end":27935.595,"text":"第一個問題呢早上已經聽到非常多的委員同事有詢問臺灣的詐騙啊已經是指數型的成長所以2023年一整年民眾被詐騙的金額高達88億而且報案的件數呢幾乎直逼4萬件非常的誇張"},{"start":27936.715,"end":27947.568,"text":"對﹚"},{"start":27948.024,"end":27970.065,"text":"是所以呢我自從來這邊上班以後我很仔細的研究我們所有部會的網站我來看到了這個宣傳反詐騙的網站點閱率只有88他到底都在談些什麼還有什麼可以進步的空間呢等一下我想播放一段影片讓大家看一下這個網站的內容為何"},{"start":27974.963,"end":27986.482,"text":"好,我們先從這個反詐學堂按進去你會發現裡面的影片是空白的什麼都沒有"},{"start":27993.103,"end":28004.934,"text":"再來我又按了第二個連結是所有防炸影片30秒短版影片裡面用我們政府預算花了很多錢請非常多的名人拍這樣子的短影片"},{"start":28010.74,"end":28011.54,"text":"請問我們行政院的資安是出了什麼問題?"},{"start":28031.561,"end":28057.952,"text":"這一個部分的話我想我們會請這是衛福部的網站我們請他們再來好好的check這個是內政部提供給各個所有部門的互相連結起來的材料我想我們這個再請我們打造辦公室來好好檢討一下看委員多發現這樣的疏失的話我們應該要來改進但是委員剛才提到的這個打造的成果"},{"start":28059.112,"end":28073.164,"text":"我跟委員做一個簡單的報告就像說我們這個近你剛才講到有4萬通的詐騙但是我們在去年一整年就是境外篡改的這個電話詐騙的阻止攔阻量就有1851萬通的電話然後惡意簡訊就攔阻了"},{"start":28079.329,"end":28079.349,"text":"﹚第11會議"},{"start":28096.23,"end":28123.364,"text":"所以我們打架是有成果但是當然還要再精進另外我們也查緝了這個犯罪集團那這個犯罪集團他們這個1700多個犯罪案件他們的這個不罰所得我們也扣查了41億所以我們會繼續來努力謝謝你給我機會來講打架的進度還有這個上升的幅度是趨緩趨緩最近各部門都很喜歡用這個字所以我覺得趨緩好也是一個好的趨勢"},{"start":28124.665,"end":28138.815,"text":"再來我在這個網站呢繼續看有什麼素材是讓我們全民可以欣賞的可以學習的更令人驚訝的是在反詐騙的網站這個素材裡面竟然有民眾黨柯文哲主席競選總統時候的所有錄音檔案"},{"start":28152.489,"end":28166.362,"text":"怎麼會發生這種奇怪的事情?雞蛋的供給是數學問題出問題是腦袋不好雞蛋的品質是食安問題出問題是政客的良性不足我承諾當選總統將積極輔導升級養雞產業"},{"start":28171.954,"end":28175.677,"text":"我跟辦公室同仁一開始聽到這樣子的音檔的時候我嚇一跳你也嚇一跳,我們可以再聽一次"},{"start":28202.421,"end":28206.263,"text":"雞蛋的供給是數學問題,出問題是腦袋不好。雞蛋的品質是食安問題,出問題是政客的良性不足。我承諾當選總統將積極輔導,升級養雞產業。"},{"start":28235.188,"end":28247.565,"text":"我作為本年的台北市長藉由檢案570頁,民進黨這場議會面對問題只能開心而已。防疫預算未清四百月,就夠大行就欠,欠水安,欠疫苗,欠..."},{"start":28250.359,"end":28271.27,"text":"我相信這個錄音檔柯文哲的競選錄音檔在上面應該不是暗指他是正面教材或者是負面教材吧我想這個一定要來好好查應該也不是指他是打詐高手或者是他自己是這些音檔是詐騙集團吧應該也不是這個意思啦"},{"start":28272.391,"end":28287.49,"text":"我想大概不會是詐騙的做法,但是這一定裡面在內政部的宣導這個詐騙的影片的資料檔一定要好好的檢討。當然我在走進這個議場都還親身操作過一次,現在相信很多線上的朋友也發現了。"},{"start":28290.219,"end":28315.554,"text":"本院很多的委員其實都有經營自己的頻道也有自己的粉專社群等等我們要如何去檢視我們宣傳的證件或是我們的短片等等的是不是有跟著人民的方向其實對一般的民意代表來說你一直回頭去審視自己上線的這些素材是非常重要的因為你可以調整你的腳步"},{"start":28316.254,"end":28317.454,"text":"這個委員是不是請容我們查一下,因為這個看起來怪怪的。"},{"start":28347.388,"end":28353.573,"text":"這個科批的那個競選廣告在這個上面不過這個並不是網站喔這個看起來應該是一個這是你給的連結因為這個應該是一個雲但是這個對不起"},{"start":28365.277,"end":28380.231,"text":"你給了反詐防詐請大家幫忙宣導的公文發到這些各級的學校各單位包括退輔會小學大學等等每個人都很用力幫你在貼耶我們來了解一下好不好結果點進去是這樣子"},{"start":28395.625,"end":28410.068,"text":"這個禮拜大家也在炒數位身分證嘛我們的資安到底有沒有辦法被嚴格的把關看起來連行政院的資安好像數位部長都沒有幫大家做好一些教育訓練部長沒有我只是稍微提到而已"},{"start":28411.028,"end":28430.407,"text":"所以這部分的話也希望大概一週內看可不可以給個書面的解釋未來你們應該要如何改善還有這件事情到底是怎麼發生的我想就如同委員所說的我們大概一週內一定得要來完整的了解那我們也會請數位部來幫忙我們各個部會來檢查"},{"start":28433.53,"end":28449.287,"text":"那等一下也請委員給我們你的剛才的提供這些資料現在大家用手機上去看應該也有不過我是怕有一些網民已經惡搞把它刪除了但沒有關係所以呢"},{"start":28450.308,"end":28468.293,"text":"比較有可能的是你們的協力廠商出包我們當然比較不去懷疑你們內部的人是不是違反了任何行政中立但是最終呢我們來檢討你做宣傳的內容是不是有閱覽那是不是有資安的問題甚至"},{"start":28469.053,"end":28469.173,"text":"謝謝兩位部長"},{"start":28493.882,"end":28518.38,"text":"接下來我也希望請院長看這份草案文件您是否有覺得似曾相識呢?確實因為在我擔任衛生署署長的時候當時代理孕母的事情我們現在的陳肇志委員就有提出很多的建議我們也召開了公民公司會議公民審議會議之後是有條件開放確實當時是"},{"start":28521.983,"end":28522.484,"text":"有這份"},{"start":28537.18,"end":28562.483,"text":"這份文件的第一行為因應不孕夫妻生育需求保障人權保護代孕子女代孕者及委託夫妻的權益特制定本法這段話讓人非常非常的感動而且在民國93年時任陳署長就這樣子高瞻遠見而且先進的進步價值是非常值得令人"},{"start":28564.721,"end":28590.193,"text":"暫許的再來我從立法院的圖書館發現9393年前兩年91年賴準總統當選人在當時是賴清德委員的時候也曾經提出了代理育母的修法草案而且當時賴清德委員他研究了世界各國的現況他還分析了"},{"start":28590.953,"end":28613.513,"text":"因為代孕所產生的法律糾紛遠低於收養的糾紛。好10年20年30年就這樣過去了看一下我們衛生署後來編衛福部拍了多少的公聽會專家學者會議公民審議會議以及無數的"},{"start":28616.255,"end":28639.51,"text":"民意調查接下來呢﹖第幾屆的立委紛紛推出自己的版本﹖第10屆不分朝野藍、綠、白全部都有提案包括代理孕母到第11屆就是本屆呢﹖很奇怪的三位民進黨委員就把代理孕母的篇章拿掉了我們開了這麼多的公民會議"},{"start":28641.118,"end":28659.459,"text":"還有這麼多的公聽會但是一而不絕絕而不行說實在的把這麼多的學者專家倡議團體召集在一起還有各位的官員是消耗極大的社會成本我給大家看一下這個"},{"start":28660.925,"end":28680.396,"text":"這是我形容的需要帶領孕母個案他們的無間地獄啊因為這是一個迴轉壽司的火車永遠轉不出去從公聽會、學者專家會、性品會、法規會、部長核定、預告草案、行政院審議繞不出這個圈子就這樣30年繞不出這個圈子"},{"start":28681.311,"end":28701.937,"text":"對於有代理孕母需求比如您剛提到的陳昭芝委員這二、三十年簡直就是一個精神的臨時啊我自己有臨床案例他流產了14次他本來算不清楚我回去看病歷加一加14次他只好出國找代理孕母生了第一個小孩"},{"start":28702.737,"end":28712.539,"text":"好,他希望有第二個小孩結果他存錢存了10年才有辦法再生第二個小孩所以他現在剛生完第二個小孩回來"},{"start":28713.51,"end":28739.926,"text":"我有患者因為先天五月經被我診斷出臺大的女學生吳子工跟陳昭芝委員一樣自從第一天被診斷出來他媽媽就告訴他你絕對不可以把這件事情告訴任何一個你交往的對象以免對方的家庭反對因此他現在染上了重度的憂鬱並且有一些傷害自己身體的行為我看了也非常的於心不忍"},{"start":28741.274,"end":28766.587,"text":"二十年前的陳署長在舉辦完國建署的公民會議報告記者會上表示說公民會議的共識極具知識性、合理性、可行性是一個歷史創舉也為延宕近十年的代理業母立法問題提供許多重要的參考。好"},{"start":28768.128,"end":28786.302,"text":"當時是延宕10年喔 當時陳署長覺得已經延宕10年 至今已經延宕30年了 當時的歷史創舉 現在也已經30幾國通過代理運母 iPhone都不知道出了幾代 我想 我們還能再等幾個 30年"},{"start":28789.67,"end":28808.207,"text":"最近呢我把所有關於代理育母的文件全部看完近期部長發表過草案已經逐漸成型了提出版本很可能包含代理育母這樣子人民才能有更多的選擇更多的選擇在生育上兩次很公正"},{"start":28809.642,"end":28833.475,"text":"官方民調也發現說支持代理孕母的比例一次是過半一次是86%大家都認同說因病或者是身體真的沒有辦法的應該要這樣子有人權的法案支持他們但是啊為什麼陳院長今天要問你解零還需繫零人啊"},{"start":28834.614,"end":28857.114,"text":"陳院長你就是那個解鈴人剛看到無間地獄的這個循環裡面有非常多都在行政院的性評會裡面但內部的人都知道性評會的共識始終沒有辦法達成而且一樣的論點已經爭吵了30年其實啊從第一次的論點這樣子爭吵"},{"start":28858.775,"end":28883.155,"text":"你就錄影就好啦因為第二次第三次第四次陳院長你應該參加很多次會議有在討論代理運往所以你知道從你們的會議記錄看起來其實這個爭吵是不會停不會停而且沒有改變立場也沒有改變論點所以我希望您身為信評會的召集人您是否可以回到您20年前的初衷"},{"start":28884.42,"end":28897.545,"text":"我想我對代理孕母的態度大家都很清楚但是一個法案要通過在早期的時候不瞞您說確實在大院這邊在有些討論的時候就有一些委員反對後來"},{"start":28901.567,"end":28902.608,"text":"其實衛福部表明的態度是"},{"start":28924.813,"end":28951.707,"text":"雖然支持,但次長那天說沒有立場,所以我也還沒有機會問到部長。是沒有規定的立場,因為不管怎麼樣這一個案子會到立法院來討論。縱然如果說行政院的院版沒有去討論,就是說沒有把代理任務放進來的話,到立法院也一定會有委員的版本是有這一個代理任務,所以避免不了要做討論。"},{"start":28953.168,"end":28977.149,"text":"但院長他現在卡關他其實始終出不了行政院以您的在公衛界醫界的聲望還有您的高度其實您在姓平會當一個召集人調和頂讓至少我們要讓這些苦等代理孕母的人知道說好我們國家的方向到底是做還是不做對吧"},{"start":28977.569,"end":28978.65,"text":"我會來注意這個法案現在進行的進度"},{"start":28998.382,"end":29009.508,"text":"少子化大家都知道國安危機少子化就是一個國家的慢性自我毀滅少子化就是一個國家的慢性自我毀滅您認同嗎"},{"start":29011.445,"end":29037.396,"text":"少子化的原因有很多一個國家確實是需要維持人口的這個適度的這個成長是人口永續但少子化我們會來繼續改進所以我們來放寬人工生殖法甚至代理孕母就是人工生殖法的一個延伸去幫助這些想生生不出來的人生育對因為人工生殖法一開始的初衷有點幫助了"},{"start":29038.356,"end":29062.804,"text":"可是對於掃紙化的解決好像這不是﹖他是其中的一塊拼圖也是您讓我很感動的一句話93年您說這是一個保障人權的法案﹖對所以第一次公聽會我有參加當時次長也說3月中旬下旬會有第二次公聽會而且在14個工作天以前會通知大家"},{"start":29063.504,"end":29065.065,"text":"我回去再確定一下,應該就在差不多這個時候。"},{"start":29078.803,"end":29080.363,"text":"我們期待大家一起努力,為臺灣人口永續而努力。"},{"start":29098.468,"end":29123.968,"text":"再來呢這一段話描述臺灣的醫療問題比如分級轉整沒有落實分工做得不好醫療人員的勞動條件惡化OECD國家相比我們醫療支出中公部門的比例真的相對比較低基層醫療資源匱乏偏向醫療不均請問陳院長你覺得這形容的中肯嗎"},{"start":29127.01,"end":29133.625,"text":"我是覺得確實臺灣的社區健康照護網絡還有需要精進的地方還有很多空間"},{"start":29134.952,"end":29157.12,"text":"但是對於OECD的醫療保健支出公部門的比例是不是偏低這一個要看我們現在的需要做盤點因為在上一個會期我們就對那個health expenditure的部分National Health Expenditure有一些討論等一下我會給大家看一下您講的Health expenditure的數據"},{"start":29159.526,"end":29177.922,"text":"剛剛這段話是您2015年競選總統副總統時所提出的醫療證件2015年啊現在已經2023、2024年了我怎麼還是濃濃的即視感我以為我看到這段話的時候我以為在講今天欸"},{"start":29179.44,"end":29193.147,"text":"今天去年我相信大家記憶猶新啊黑十字醫護人員喔已經20幾年沒有走上街頭了居然又走上街頭去年11月護理師職業人數"},{"start":29194.628,"end":29223.848,"text":"每一個月不斷地在下降職業比率只剩58.4%每一個護理師職業6年就quit不做了如果大家有機會到急診室看一下急診目前的亂象那個醫療品質以及衛福部長自己都說臺灣重症兒童10年後可能要送出國舊我們剛還在討論少子化我們還希望大家多聲一點結果你跟大家說10年後可能沒有重症的兒科醫師"},{"start":29225.268,"end":29249.153,"text":"各位委員報告,對於兒童這部分我們已經有對策,而且這一個行政院也已經核定了。所以這一個部分在最近我們就會把整個的對策是announce出來,對於兒科醫師的保障。至於委員的這個護理人員職業,這是每一年從1月到2月、3月、4月、5月都會下降,然後6月以後會上升。"},{"start":29251.232,"end":29252.794,"text":"所以這個問題有一個很大的因素是在於他要職業班"},{"start":29271.135,"end":29273.376,"text":"接下來我們就談剛您的醫療2015醫療政見有哪一些還做得不足的有講到說"},{"start":29294.025,"end":29310.094,"text":"建保支出只佔GDP的3.3%我當然肯定你們有增加支出可是很顯然還是不夠因為我們的建保已經快要破產了可是總額成長率卻是下降的"},{"start":29310.834,"end":29327.959,"text":"我很認同你們剛剛講的Health Expenditure衛福部很會算CHE、MHE一被發現說醫療支出只佔6.6%,GDP 6.6%趕快東加西加加起來就7.5%昨天部長跟我們衛環委員會的人說我們的目標是要追上韓國嘛你還要找一個訪問團去OECD"},{"start":29339.423,"end":29341.006,"text":"可是韓國現在在暴動欸"},{"start":29342.997,"end":29368.953,"text":"韓國暴動另外一回事,但是我們必須要在這個國際比較的時候要能夠精確。那也跟委員報告,即使用佔GDP的多少去做評估的話,也不是很準確。因為我們的GDP成長很大、很快。這幾年很好。沒關係。GDP我們如果是縮減它成長的話,當然比例就高起來了。我們的目標"},{"start":29370.134,"end":29370.174,"text":"長期趨勢吧"},{"start":29382.963,"end":29400.46,"text":"所以2015年蔡總統說跟其他國家比較我們醫療公部門比例真的相對比較低好我們看右邊這是衛福部自己整理出來的表格2020年公部門經常性醫療支出佔經常性醫療支出比"},{"start":29401.525,"end":29412.078,"text":"這些數據是你提供的這些國家也是你選的其實你也可以再選比我們更差的國家我只能說很誠實我們這裡面是倒數第二名欸因為我們從2015年到現在"},{"start":29415.399,"end":29427.695,"text":"我們公佈門的支出到底是還是相對比較低還是又趨緩了?好,委員我跟你講,這也是我們在上個會期的時候有很多的討論,因為這個比較是OECD公佈的這個資料。"},{"start":29433.382,"end":29453.777,"text":"那在OECD的資料裡面你說我們就給他加多一點,不是啦,因為OECD的資料裡面像長照就應該要加進來等等。 你意思是說這個表還沒加長照。 對,所以我們還有另外一件事情也很重要,就是說公家醫院的那個設施或者是"},{"start":29454.958,"end":29457.1,"text":"希望不是從倒數第二變成倒數第三還是第四之類的"},{"start":29477.935,"end":29504.268,"text":"再來呢蔡總統2015年安撫我們全國的醫護人員說健保給各位點值一直在打折我們感謝醫護人員守護國人的健康所付出的犧牲未來我們要檢討健保支付標準表結果現在是2012年北部最慘北部是0.7、0.8打8折打8折是大家的常態"},{"start":29505.589,"end":29527.139,"text":"那個是浮動點值的部分,因為也有一些是固定點值,所以一般來算的話用平均點值,平均點值大概在0.9多。部長您昨天也收了執政黨林俊憲委員的提案,他也同時提到您真的應該要再調整浮動點值至少到1.0.95塊吧?"},{"start":29529.56,"end":29540.264,"text":"沒有,跟委員報告,你如果要能夠這樣調整的話,因為點子是跟量是有關的,我們就是用總額預算制度。所以我真的很期待,因為你們提到疫情的影響啊等等啊。"},{"start":29545.026,"end":29568.079,"text":"未來還是有很多新型傳染病嗎?所以我們要把這些因素考慮進去。這些特殊的狀況我們都有特殊去做處理,但是基本上要拉到1.1元的話,我們就要有很強的手段去控制它的量。這個對醫界也不一定是好的,因為整個總額就是那麼多錢,也不會從天上再掉下來。"},{"start":29568.319,"end":29588.873,"text":"我們之後再來慢慢討論我們健保會健保應該要怎麼改革這是一個很大的議題好當時2015年的政見二落實分級醫療雙向轉診我們來比較這也是您提供的表格106年到112年醫學中心跟基層診所聞風不動10%、64%甚至基層診所的"},{"start":29595.891,"end":29618.902,"text":"還下降欸,就議比例還下降欸。委員選了這兩年是在疫情的期間欸。所以因為疫情打亂了你們六大政策的節奏。六大政策我也讀完了。打亂你們六大政策的節奏。現在很多數據,委員你是Hopkins BL,你是很專家啦。"},{"start":29620.452,"end":29620.512,"text":"第三﹗"},{"start":29644.724,"end":29671.944,"text":"當時說要建立一個專業調解的機制,由受過訓練的法律及醫療專業者提供公正的意見,縮短醫病認知差距。好,結果呢,108年出了一個醫療爭議事辦計畫。第一句是叫我們醫療爭議發生時若病方對醫療過程有疑義,可先與醫療院所溝通。這不就是我們一般人每天,大家不然先跟誰溝通,跟里長嗎?"},{"start":29673.466,"end":29694.265,"text":"當然這個是現實的狀況,不過跟委員報告,因為我們貴院也通過了一個醫療糾紛,這個法律今年要開始實施了。2015年的政見終於今年要開始實施了,真的很可惜我沒有機會檢視這個政見,有沒有辦法好好的落實。"},{"start":29701.101,"end":29701.962,"text":"謝謝陳委員經費的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第55號羅委員美玲質詢。"},{"start":29731.258,"end":29734.081,"text":"謝謝主席,有請陳院長請陳院長備詢羅永安,恭喜你當選連任,然後祝你婦女節快樂"},{"start":29744.874,"end":29762.803,"text":"謝謝院長,院長你也辛苦了。今天是婦女節,我也先祝在場的女士們婦女節快樂。OK,院長在上一屆本席就已經跟你探討過我國的這一個統一制度。那本席除了跟院長探討之外,也跟相關的"},{"start":29763.483,"end":29791.893,"text":"單位也曾經做過很多次的溝通。去年我也開了這個公聽會來聽取專家學者的一些意見。當然在這裡我要特別感謝我們林萬一政委還有我們內政部有邀集了相關的機關我們有來擬定了這個統一制度精進事辦計畫。而且這個計畫在今年的4月1號就要上路了。"},{"start":29792.653,"end":29800.276,"text":"當然這是我國統一制度往前邁進的一個很好的一個現象。 針對於這個經濟計劃我有看到"},{"start":29805.14,"end":29833.008,"text":"主責單位就是我們內政部移民署那移民署這邊有提出了這個四個面向那他針對這四個面向提出了檢討跟改善的這個目標那我們來先看哪四個面向第一個面向就是華語文程度那華語文程度過去除了現行的狀況除了說檢察署跟警察機關有明定需求跟測驗之外呢其他機關的並沒有"},{"start":29834.548,"end":29834.768,"text":"拜訓本期"},{"start":29853.737,"end":29870.243,"text":"本席最重視的一部分那像培訓的課程過去呢課程都是大同小異而且呢課程的時數呢真的非常的少只有8到15個小時這個跟歐美的這個通譯制度的培訓差很多歐美幾乎到100小時以上"},{"start":29870.563,"end":29887.415,"text":"好那現在呢我們全面提升培訓的時間至少要14個小時這個時數也讓我覺得無法接受那雖然說我們說改善可是時間培訓的這課程的時間真的還是讓人沒有辦法接受基礎課程6個小時專業課程至少8個小時"},{"start":29890.397,"end":29918.954,"text":"通譯的費用可能是讓通譯人員覺得比較安慰的地方,因為除了司法通譯與法務部來全責辦理之外,像其他的公共事務通譯,現行現況是每個小時平均是300塊,那現在我們提升到每個小時500塊,那夜間還有加倍的付費。那詞彙資料庫這個部分,我們現行的詞彙資料庫是以中英文對照為主。"},{"start":29919.514,"end":29921.237,"text":"新住民發展基金補助建置越南跟印尼"},{"start":29935.64,"end":29953.626,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":29953.626,"end":29953.906,"text":"主席"},{"start":29970.168,"end":29984.792,"text":"我們來看一下現在我們的組別有分成五個組別司法通益警政業務醫療衛生還有就業服務跟移民輔導我跳一個跟院長有關係的醫療衛生好了好醫療衛生我們在這個計劃裡面總共呢有12個小時是專業課程的部分"},{"start":29991.033,"end":30004.46,"text":"院長你看,人體構造與基礎知識1個小時,就醫檢查與治療流程常用與訓練及演練2個小時,內科醫療常見用與訓練2個小時,外科醫療常見用與訓練2個小時,後面零零總總全部加起來12個小時。"},{"start":30011.86,"end":30028.158,"text":"我們基礎6個小時再加上這個12個小時總共18個小時那他就要去考試經過考試之後呢他取得這個認證就可以來當同意人員院長可以想像的到嗎"},{"start":30030.06,"end":30053.312,"text":"經過18個小時他就要上場去做通譯那這些醫療用語院長我之前也跟你講過跟你提過就是說這些醫療用語都是非常非常的專業這個計劃裡面前前後後就十幾個小時他就必須上場然後呢必須跟我們的醫療專業人員當他們的翻譯有某個移工他去就診"},{"start":30054.599,"end":30058.741,"text":"這個部分因為我不曉得這個詳細的課程的內容了。 是我們連課程內容我們都搞不清楚嘛可是我們不要看內容兩個小時一個小時"},{"start":30081.089,"end":30099.867,"text":"那個時數就讓人家覺得無法接受欸就要看這一個被訓練的人員他本身的基本知識夠不夠如果他基本知識就需要再加強的時候當然這就有差啦就是說那個被訓的人如果本身是有醫療背景那當然就比較好一點"},{"start":30100.88,"end":30118.75,"text":"院長跟您報告,這些去上課的受訓人員,絕大部分都是嫁到臺灣來的新住民。您認為說新住民他們會講越南語也好,會講印尼語也好,真的有辦法去確確實實的去做這個專業名詞的這個"},{"start":30123.103,"end":30140.963,"text":"翻譯嗎?真的有辦法嗎?像司法同意也是一樣,檢查業務簡介2個小時,法律嘗試3個小時,偵查程序該要3個小時,實務演練3個小時,他還有去給他演練3個小時。那通過考試,我想考試的內容絕對就是上課的內容了。"},{"start":30142.357,"end":30161.291,"text":"那這些上課的內容,我想說在實務上面遇到的絕對是超過上課的內容。你用的名詞也好,用的這些語言也好,也許跟母國都沒有關係。那也許它的知識是局限在你所上課的內容,可是我在想在實務操作上面絕對遠遠超過這些內容。"},{"start":30164.4,"end":30181.846,"text":"剛剛委員舉的例子是醫療衛生以醫療衛生來講的話不要講說我們的新住民其實我們的國人如果你沒有受過醫療訓練的話其實很多東西也是沒有辦法了解那也沒有辦法"},{"start":30183.206,"end":30187.467,"text":"說明給他的家屬去瞭解,但是這個是基礎的訓練,真正的所謂的訓練的話是實際上去操作,"},{"start":30200.251,"end":30215.581,"text":"所以這一些同意人員我們的建議當然就是說你如果是屬於醫療衛生的這一組的話就是固定在這一組因為你這樣才能夠...本來就這樣因為...不可能說把所有的都寫好了還在上證部長可能衛生醫療也許你覺得說可以邊做邊學嘛那我想請教司法同意呢"},{"start":30229.489,"end":30239.335,"text":"司法同意怎麼辦?為什麼我會取這個例子?我跟各位講一個很真實的一個案例。"},{"start":30240.12,"end":30265.028,"text":"在好幾年前有一位來自菲律賓的家庭看護工,他剛來臺灣就被他的雇主猥褻,然後當然他要去投訴嘛,然後仲介公司呢,那個部長請回,好,部長請回,對,徐部長請回,好,那這個看護工呢就跟這個仲介公司"},{"start":30266.567,"end":30274.272,"text":"後來給他換了一個僱主,可是更糟糕,第二個僱主的居然就性侵了他。"},{"start":30276.532,"end":30304.15,"text":"這是真實的案例喔!這個菲律賓的家庭看護工當然他最後當然就是報案兩個案子他都報案的後來也走了司法程序可是呢最後判決出來是第一個案那個第一個雇主呢沒事第二個雇主呢這個性侵案也不成立所以這個菲律賓的這個家庭看護工覺得沒有辦法接受"},{"start":30305.581,"end":30325.932,"text":"這個菲律賓的康護公呢他不會中文也不會英語不是所有的菲律賓的外籍移工都會講英文他只會講菲律賓的泰加洛語那當然判決書他看不懂他拜訴他不知道為什麼他就跟著他的朋友講說在我們的母國"},{"start":30327.318,"end":30328.278,"text":"法務部長可以去看一下,過去曾經有這個案子。"},{"start":30356.753,"end":30371.248,"text":"他必須到警察局去做筆錄有一個同意那他到檢察官證訊的時候也有一位同意那到法院開庭的時候也有同意都有同意陪伴可是同意都不是同一位"},{"start":30372.816,"end":30398.107,"text":"通譯都是不是同一位,所以實在我們也知道說在司法判決的時候你的證詞有沒有前後一致,這很重要。那他說他前後都不一致,可是這位受害者他說有啊,我這個前後都是一致的啊,為什麼不一致?因為通譯翻的都不一樣,通譯翻出來的內容都不一樣,所以造成"},{"start":30399.11,"end":30422.987,"text":"最後呢,他居然是所有兩個案子都不成立,他是一個受害者。這是真實發生的事情喔。 所以本席覺得通譯問題就是人權問題。 我覺得到現在為止喔,臺灣我們的中央政府好像對這個通譯,覺得就不過是一個翻譯而已嘛。"},{"start":30425.216,"end":30449.462,"text":"而且我也覺得說這麼多年相同意的問題我們談論了很多很多年可是就是沒有一套就是沒有一個統一的認證制度專業的課程也沒有那我所看到的這個計畫隨隨便便就是就是幾個小時他就必須上場做翻譯了那再來還有讓我很失望的就是這個計畫主責單位竟然是移民署"},{"start":30451.305,"end":30451.645,"text":"國發會的角色在哪裡?"},{"start":30479.497,"end":30499.722,"text":"我們現在只是說國教院齒會納入國教院裡面的磁庫那其他的呢?教育部沒有角色嗎?國發會沒有角色嗎?這是一個很重要的問題為什麼從上一屆到現在我會不斷的跟院長跟你討論我們的通譯制度真的真的有很大的困境"},{"start":30502.362,"end":30525.314,"text":"再來還有我們現在因為移民署叫不動其他的部會所以一樣還是下放到各部會各自辦理一樣下放到縣市政府各自去做辦理這培訓到現在為止還是一樣我們取得的這個資格認證的資格還是不一樣那要怎麼測驗你們各部會自己去認證吧"},{"start":30527.755,"end":30530.416,"text":"我上次就已經在說了請參考澳洲的NATI這個機構"},{"start":30552.978,"end":30581.626,"text":"也就是說澳洲的國家翻譯跟口譯認證機構這個認證機構呢他是在1977年的時候設立的那政府呢他這個在NATI成立以前澳洲政府是先輔導民間成立一個專業通譯協會叫AUCIS他來規範這個培訓的課程那等到這個AUCIS成熟之後輔導他成熟可以變成一個獨立運作機構之後呢才成立NATI現在他們兩個的角色就是說AUCIS他就是一個培訓的機構"},{"start":30582.606,"end":30609.909,"text":"NATI它就是一個認證的機構所以我在這裡真的要拜託我們行政單位真的要認真看待臺灣的通營制度就是他們這整個過程都非常非常的嚴謹那我們臺灣什麼時候才能夠認真來看待尤其是臺灣的外來人口越來越多的狀況之下再來我們馬上也要引進印度的移工"},{"start":30611.636,"end":30627.774,"text":"所以這個統一制度真的、完善制度真的非常非常的重要。 所以在這裡真的要拜託我們各個單位、話部會來討論一下未來我們臺灣的統一制度要如何走。"},{"start":30628.7,"end":30644.567,"text":"院長還有一點時間讓你回覆一下我想上次您也提到這一個問題那我們雖然有移民署在做相關的精進不過考慮這個澳洲的制度的可行性的話我們會請一位"},{"start":30662.056,"end":30663.319,"text":"謝謝樓委員美玲的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第56號徐委員欣迎質詢。"},{"start":30695.964,"end":30699.505,"text":"本席想請行政院陳院長麻煩再請陳院長備選"},{"start":30713.204,"end":30731.388,"text":"陳院長辛苦了,這麼長時間以來的總質詢,今天終於最後一個了。接下來有個人質詢。首先第一題,送分題,您剛剛也講到了,今天是什麼節日?國際婦女節。本席想請教院長,"},{"start":30737.722,"end":30739.222,"text":"有進步,但是還可以再加強。"},{"start":30766.476,"end":30786.292,"text":"您也認為還可以再加強嗎?所以首先本席想就我們現在公部門跟私部門女性的這種在職場的一個平等,包含就是女性的升遷,各方面還擔任高階主管、中階主管以及基層主管的情況。"},{"start":30787.473,"end":30814.846,"text":"在我們觀察起來感覺公部門好像是比較對女性就是說比較沒有壓抑那女性的抬頭各方面都比較好但是對於私部門就是私人企業的部分好像這種對女性的歧視各方面或者是給女性這種升遷的這種管道好像還是比較弱所以本席在這裡想要"},{"start":30816.446,"end":30838.832,"text":"請教院長你是否同意我們應該要鼓勵私部門的這個中高階主管包含基層的女性主管比例提升您同意嗎我當然同意我覺得在公司部門都應該每一個人都按照他的貢獻按照他的能力來做相關的提升"},{"start":30839.972,"end":30851.194,"text":"有關施部門的這個部分您可不可以在一個月內提一些具體的您竟然認同可以一些具體的做法的報告給本席"},{"start":30852.022,"end":30853.844,"text":"您責成看哪一個單位,寫一份您也認同的報告給本席。"},{"start":30871.082,"end":30882.987,"text":"再來就是說現在有關育嬰留職津貼已經修法就是男女雙方就父母都可以申請了但是申請的比例還是很少您知道為什麼嗎?"},{"start":30884.861,"end":30912.738,"text":"我不太清楚每一個家庭的狀況啦但是在臺灣的文化的情況下可能都還認為是媽媽應該即便是媽媽申請的也還不多原因就是他育嬰留職津貼的這個八成薪現在只有六折六折薪太好了您講出八折薪那是不是已經八成了公佈門已經八成了"},{"start":30915.169,"end":30934.121,"text":"施部門施部門也是一樣就是6層是6層是施部門的企業庫2層是政府用我們的舊保基金另外公務預算還補2層去年我們從6層提升到8層那施部門呢"},{"start":30935.061,"end":30937.703,"text":"現在都有八成。那本席想請教為什麼2022年我們的預算是47億那到2023去年的預算是33億那到2024年今年也是30幾億"},{"start":30953.351,"end":30978.34,"text":"那有沒有可能既然你之前可以提到47那我們是不是可能八成那如果已經到八成那是不是可以再提到因為那一年是先我們先預估啦因為那一年先預估後來發現是這樣那預估既然可以47因為我們是先行啦我們先做那時候法還沒有通過但是我們用先做我們用辦法先補"},{"start":30982.141,"end":30982.641,"text":"我了解我了解"},{"start":30997.208,"end":31023.199,"text":"既然可以這樣的話那我們因為現在臺灣少子化問題我相信院長還有大家都知道所以既然生了我們當然讓父母能夠安心的養孩子很多人他沒有申請的原因就是他畢竟還是打折嘛畢竟還是打折這個薪資還是打折所以他也怕等於說薪水不夠這個養家不易所以是不是可以想辦法我們再提高"},{"start":31024.249,"end":31029.373,"text":"有沒有可能我們育嬰留職今天能夠再提高?我想現在的問題除了薪資的保障,育兒的這個保障"},{"start":31045.378,"end":31050.361,"text":"新制的保障以外,育兒的津貼的保障也是很重要,所以這兩邊都要平和。"},{"start":31075.086,"end":31094.683,"text":"我 我覺得 都有了 都是品質好不好的問題哪一項的品質比較不好我們有一些鄉鎮有空氣的污染 那水的供應的話呢 確實在原住民的偏鄉的地區 這個水的供應可能需要改善 那陽光的"},{"start":31097.687,"end":31110.712,"text":"謝謝,這個院長說得非常好。我們現在全台灣還有四五十萬戶沒有自來水。 院長您可以想像沒有自來水的情況嗎?"},{"start":31111.832,"end":31132.381,"text":"像您今天穿的白襯衫,如果我們這些偏鄉地區的民眾穿著白襯衫,那他每次來水清華街他用他家的水洗衣服,最後變黃襯衫,變黃襯衫。還有我們平常喝水覺得很自然,這個都很健康,但是現在還有40幾萬戶,應該有超過100萬人以上。"},{"start":31135.262,"end":31151.865,"text":"沒有自來水,已經是民國113年了,這個民生必需的自來水是不是我們應該要用專案來加速讓他們可以擁有自來水?"},{"start":31152.637,"end":31152.817,"text":"我發現呢﹖"},{"start":31181.596,"end":31181.616,"text":"請暫停"},{"start":31202.355,"end":31231.006,"text":"我們新竹縣呢這8年只拿了6.8億一個58億一個6.8億所以剛剛部長有講接下來的8年接下來要在為這個無自來水地區來爭取那我們希望能夠整體來看而且加速因為這些人他們也是中華民國的國民而且他們也是同樣都盡各種權利義務但是為什麼他們沒有自來水喝"},{"start":31231.866,"end":31235.87,"text":"這一點我們請院長、部長這邊呢,我們能夠來加強,可以嗎?"},{"start":31235.87,"end":31253.107,"text":"是不是給我們的部長簡單的回顧一下好不好?他們有計畫了,不是沒有計畫。 是是,那因為在偏遠地區齁。 因為我的本席的時間就是說未來我們能夠加速。 有,我們會持續來支持,會專案會來再提。 因為這個東西它的急迫性就是水。"},{"start":31254.508,"end":31254.648,"text":"﹚發言委員"},{"start":31279.213,"end":31284.156,"text":"部長、院長提出來我們一定全力支持但是不要大小眼每個縣市都能夠"},{"start":31296.784,"end":31299.787,"text":"蔡政府執政8年來有一個數字成長幅度非常驚人,總共增加了50億,您知道是什麼數字嗎?"},{"start":31319.403,"end":31332.06,"text":"我增加50億,超過50億的都很多,好像GDP啊等等,那這個太多數字了。太多數字了,對,所以這樣講大概您沒有辦法知道是什麼,本席跟您說。"},{"start":31333.41,"end":31350.279,"text":"就是我們蔡政府執政前105年的時候我們臺灣受詐被詐騙的金額是38億到去年112年衝破88億那我跟委員報告一下我等下會問你我也會給你話講拜託拜託所以呢我們政府啊"},{"start":31357.102,"end":31376.217,"text":"打詐無能全民受害那當然打詐有很多層面所以今天本席要特別就一個層面來就教於院長就是民眾受害其中有一項非常多的就是網路上的詐騙廣告"},{"start":31377.577,"end":31403.104,"text":"所以網路上詐騙廣告現在很大一個問題是他沒有實名制的刊登機制所以院長是不是可以支持所有網路廣告都要實名制您支持嗎我們是想往這個方向去做但是我們還要跟相關的平台網路平台來溝通嘛所以您支持嘛我們是不是目前做的情形你先"},{"start":31403.524,"end":31433.227,"text":"沒有沒有做的情形本席其實相關資料我也閱讀了我現在就是想要問院長因為我們今天這個施政總質詢我想就整體來就教於院長因為院長您當然這個蔡政府這8年不是都是您當行政院長但是你現在是剛好這個第8年嘛所以您承擔這一切所以本席就是想就這個來請院長表態所以您也支持嘛支持要實名制"},{"start":31435.456,"end":31436.561,"text":"支持實名制之外﹚"},{"start":31437.773,"end":31439.073,"text":"請問行政院能不能在半年內提出具體的方案?"},{"start":31466.664,"end":31469.305,"text":"目前是以金管會的這個投信投估法在投資詐騙方面如果他沒有"},{"start":31494.469,"end":31498.492,"text":"您講到這我正想問電子簽章法聽說送到立法院之後要三年才實施這是怎麼回事?"},{"start":31498.492,"end":31498.832,"text":"不是這樣子的"},{"start":31515.103,"end":31543.002,"text":"那個在裡面就是我們有一些部會就是他的一些服務目前是用公告的方法使用﹖那你多久可以實施電子簽章法通過立法院﹖一三度通過馬上就可以實施﹖剛剛講的三年是有些部會目前還只提供一些臨櫃的服務他需要時間才能改成接受電子簽章﹖那可以加速嗎﹖我想各部會的電子簽章法通過以後我們會全面的來推動各部會來加速"},{"start":31544.911,"end":31562.358,"text":"謝謝那再來本席想請教院長從去年開始我們民眾在生活上特別是在交通上有這個有一項新出來的政策讓他們蠻有感受的您知道是什麼嗎當然你講的是"},{"start":31564.389,"end":31564.529,"text":"違規祭典"},{"start":31593.747,"end":31608.402,"text":"違規祭典有很多層面,所以也對,違規祭典造成很大的… 違規祭典裡面的小部分是不是,就是你講的是那個我們所謂的… 科技執法,你知道有科技執法這個嗎?"},{"start":31608.402,"end":31613.727,"text":"我曉得有科技執法,去年開始上路的嘛,我們民眾都感受很深,可是"},{"start":31614.973,"end":31640.559,"text":"院長您有感受到科技執法對您有什麼影響嗎?沒有,因為你的坐車都有交通指揮。你有收過科技執法的罰單嗎?有沒有收過?沒有嘛,因為你不會,你都有交通指揮。本席在這裡要請院長您了解一下科技執法被民眾最詬病、最抱怨的到底是什麼?抗議的到底是什麼?"},{"start":31641.476,"end":31646.385,"text":"就是科技執法造成不少的擾民,也就是說"},{"start":31648.825,"end":31675.415,"text":"首先本席一定要特別強調我絕對支持科技執法因為可以精簡一些人力而且科技帶來便利我們都非常認同那科技既然是帶來便利怎麼會變成帶來擾民那首先本席講一個例子就是比如說您想像在上下班交通巔峰時間我們車子要左轉在十字路口車子要左轉"},{"start":31676.535,"end":31691.14,"text":"所以綠燈的時候我是不是可以往前然後左轉可是我在入口的時候塞住了那綠燈啊我當然是接著車子往前結果沒想到左轉的這邊沒有通暢接著就出現了紅燈那你說我會不會被開可以申訴對問題就在這為什麼他明明"},{"start":31698.243,"end":31722.909,"text":"他明明就不是真正的違規你還要讓他申訴這個部分有沒有可能在比如說你開單前你還是花一點點判斷所以院長您這個確實也是這個明理的就是要判斷啊不然很多民眾都覺得還有救護車我想大家都知道會開車的都知道救護車來你一定要讓而且讓的時候有的時候"},{"start":31723.749,"end":31736.623,"text":"比如說這個聽到救護車聲音我紅燈我還是要跨越那個紅燈的那個線我要讓開給他過啊我就被開了就民眾就被開了那像這種你等他申訴"},{"start":31738.648,"end":31741.53,"text":"委員你講的是正確的,但是那個增加很多的是主要是去年我們修了一個"},{"start":31760.402,"end":31763.003,"text":"但是現在中央到地方沒有一個統一的SOP"},{"start":31790.01,"end":31811.26,"text":"您是完全放任地方在做嗎?科技執法主要是說警力不足。這個我們知道了。那現在這樣科技執法事實上。這個我沒有要您回答。沒有要回答我想這個就不要回答。重點在於好我們等於是現在科技執法我們希望就是落實這個我們"},{"start":31814.141,"end":31817.503,"text":"請問院長,像科技執法的地點,您會知道他怎麼決定的嗎?"},{"start":31837.793,"end":31840.576,"text":"對,但真正的執行面,我們希望中央能夠有一個統一的SOP"},{"start":31856.437,"end":31878.849,"text":"因為科技執法地點誰最知道哪個路口他最需要一定是地方要嘛里長嘛民意代表對不對地方的當然警察單位他裝設的他最清楚還有交通單位地方政府您剛有提到還有可能一些民意代表他們會接受到最多民眾曾經而且生活在那裡最了解"},{"start":31879.329,"end":31897.816,"text":"所以未來是不是可以那個地點的決策的SOP裡面可以召集相關單位能夠共同的來開個會聽取大家的意見然後我們再來執行這個我想我們會跟請地方政府就像你講的一樣倡照這個檢察機關相關的數據還有民眾的反應"},{"start":31903.182,"end":31928.034,"text":"來做比較好的這個設置,但是在這個設置的過程當中,我想這個以往的數據可能是一個重要的角色。好,OK,院長,就是如果可以您就承諾可以,未來是不是可以我們就朝這個方向。這是要地方政府來一起配合啦。對對對,所以中央應該也可以,比如提出一些SOP的一個建議或者是。我們可以提給一些建議。"},{"start":31929.275,"end":31954.538,"text":"好那再來本席想請教院長這個我們不管公務單位或私人單位有的時候有人勇於揭弊就是有一些弊案揭弊者您覺得他最擔心的是什麼第一個他的工作權第二個他的人身自由第三個以上皆是"},{"start":31956.955,"end":31978.055,"text":"應該以上皆是吧,我個人覺得。對,絕對是,以上皆是,我們將心比心嘛。對,以上皆是,所以我們現在非常需要吹哨者保護法,也或是說接避者保護法。那,像現在有很多潛在的吹哨者呢,他很怕被秋後算帳。"},{"start":31979.116,"end":31997.547,"text":"所以想請問院長您是否支持吹哨者保護法或稱為接避者保護法進促立法。我想這個立法。您支不支持我就是想了解您的態度就好。我支持有吹哨者的保護但是要分階段。"},{"start":31998.407,"end":32000.148,"text":"因為目前草案都還沒有送到立法院"},{"start":32013.317,"end":32041.555,"text":"那牛部進行,所以本席也想在這裡提出四大訴求。第一個,公私部門都要納入。您剛剛有說先公部門接著私部門。第二個,要有防黑函誣告機制。第三個,不能秋後算帳。第四個原則當然就是保障吹哨者或接避者的工作權以及人身安全的保護機制要儘早介入。請問院長支持嗎?"},{"start":32042.395,"end":32070.957,"text":"我想你的這個支持嗎支持嗎不要急嘛我時間不夠不是急我時間有限你的訴求我可以列入考慮但是呢我剛才講過你說公司部門都要納入我們會有先後之分對對沒關係嘛那你先後但你也認同可以納入好所以院長應該是認同那事實上呢去年7月法務部版本好像送去行政院之後就沒有下文了所以"},{"start":32071.517,"end":32074.8,"text":"因為現在還在法務部審議,是不是讓部長講一下,好不好?因為前後有很多不同的版本,那我們一直尊重行政院的指示,一直在修正,所以現在而且審議的時間不多。"},{"start":32099.099,"end":32108.072,"text":"行政院也審議了12次之多啦,所以我們還會繼續。 我想行政院一定會盡快的協調各方的意見。 沒有一個目標你至少定一個目標,你什麼時候?"},{"start":32114.691,"end":32138.869,"text":"我想行政院一定會盡快的把各地方大家的意見整合以後,很快的來送。民進黨執政就是盡快,沒有期程目標,總是要定啊。那你如果不行你當然才知道我要再加速,你沒定時間永遠盡快你就一直拖。已經有一個相當完整的版本了。沒關係,來,好,本席要接著問下一題了。院長,我們內閣中有一個非常"},{"start":32140.091,"end":32144.061,"text":"作為一項非常叛逆的部會,您知道是哪一個嗎?您認為是哪一個?"},{"start":32145.463,"end":32171.45,"text":"我覺得我們內閣沒一個...沒有,你認為沒有,那本席很快說明一下,像外交部他一定會到駐在國,他的職責就是要去外交對外各國,他不會都一直留在台灣。橋委會他的目的就接觸僑胞,希望可以讓這個僑民各方面的事務進行。客委會一定接觸客家鄉親,原住民委員會接觸原住民,都有良性的互動。"},{"start":32172.432,"end":32191.209,"text":"但是呢我們的陸委會呢好像是不溝通不協調然後不接觸也沒有實質作為那這個部分本席呢要特別在這裡提出來在這個我們內政委員會呢這三天都有陸委會的這個答詢"},{"start":32194.312,"end":32218.506,"text":"的專案報告本席質詢的時候發現陸委會呢我們講到M503航線的時候推給這個交通部那我們農產品禁止登陸問題呢推給農業部那今夏海域執法問題再推給海委會海巡署所以呢所有事情都甩鍋其他單位沒有他沒有甩鍋因為他去做整合啊"},{"start":32219.787,"end":32241.396,"text":"好像陸委會主委呢可以像行政院長一樣分配工作給各部會。我不知道我們陸委會存在的價值一年陸委會的預算9億元海基會3億元那我們整個的現在的執政的政府呢只有台灣政策沒有大陸政策"},{"start":32242.416,"end":32263.32,"text":"所以方針陸委會海基會呢就是不溝通不交流不協調所以很多兩岸的問題僵化比如說我們客委會絕對不會說哇所有的台灣的客家人全部來這個抵制或者是對這個有問題都不去溝通協調不會嘛"},{"start":32263.9,"end":32290.294,"text":"所以讓兩岸的關係盪到零下三度C所以呢是不是這兩個單位剛好竟然盪到那麼低可以剛好動起來所以我們對於兩岸官方兩岸的官方一直是不相往來的局面我們真的要建議考慮那如果現在的執政都沒有辦法這個兩岸"},{"start":32292.677,"end":32294.278,"text":"院長您知道民進黨執政8年有一個案子空轉8年這個案子空轉8年而且會一直開一直開"},{"start":32321.072,"end":32344.849,"text":"然後召集人一直換一直換然後所有的問題所有的問題每一次開會每一次開會就一直的這個一樣的問題可以一樣開一樣開連地方政府連民眾都受不了了正反兩方每次教訓講一樣的話這樣子可以做八年耶然後那每一次開會的時候相關單位都知道"},{"start":32346.186,"end":32347.026,"text":"本席要告訴你,那就是"},{"start":32368.157,"end":32386.346,"text":"臺灣知識經濟旗艦園區還有科學園區三期計劃。 那我們行政院在今年2月22日合併了一個桃竹苗大細股計劃。 這個計劃您知道吧?您就回答知道或不知道。 知道,在本院已經有通過。"},{"start":32387.086,"end":32402.406,"text":"桃主任要大細股計畫,這個計畫行政院的計畫寫得很漂亮,他願景寫得很好,引領全球的產業生態圈,深化先進製程以及技術開發,確保半導體耕留台灣,真的非常好。"},{"start":32402.867,"end":32428.314,"text":"那台資園區的計畫跟柯三奇他也是催生高科技研發園區而且台資園區的這個計畫裡面也有整個交大交通國立交通大學那您也知道國立交通大學裡面就是培養很多的科技人才也是各種的研發在臺灣來說我想也是最這個數一數二的但是為什麼這個案子"},{"start":32428.894,"end":32452.536,"text":"一直是牛步進行而且呢一直的空轉然後民眾都說空轉輪迴都一樣這樣在做所以本席在這裡要很快的請教院長這個案子都已經所有的問題都解決了但是我們行政院我們中央一直的換召集人每次一換一個召集人所有"},{"start":32453.217,"end":32453.617,"text":"我可以回答嗎?"},{"start":32470.414,"end":32490.983,"text":"我現在請您回答就是說是不是可以盡速核定?是不是?新竹縣政府已經依審查的意見在最近補件了來送到這個內政部審議。所以我們會來加速審議。那是不是可以盡速核定?我要是不是可以盡速核定?這一定要審議完才能夠核定啊。"},{"start":32491.383,"end":32509.334,"text":"就是一直輪迴的審議你都審議了都是一樣的沒有更新的新竹縣政府都不斷的補充意見表示他們也認同嘛才會要補充意見進來沒有沒有都補充過了中央還是要求補充是一模一樣的都補充過了"},{"start":32516.963,"end":32538.519,"text":"謝謝許委員心意的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告院會本會期排定政黨質詢的委員均已質詢完畢。謝謝陳院長、政府院長以及各部會首長列席的答詢。3月12日星期二上午9時繼續開會進行立法委員個人質詢、內政組之質詢。現在休息。"}]}},{"id":"149610","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149610","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e7383c0ce4a703cc31b49eebd65d3c5fd230da91660cc9cbf8ba9b0039caa7a6edfb78fde1fab8a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"17:01:21 - 17:31:58","影片長度":"00:30:37","會議時間":"2024-03-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-08","duration":1837,"end_time":"2024-03-08T17:31:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-08T17:01:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":762,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（17時1分）院長好，本席想請行政院陳院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：徐委員午安，恭喜你當選立委，也祝你婦女節快樂。"],["徐委員欣瑩：謝謝。陳院長辛苦了，這麼長時間以來的總質詢，今天終於最後一個了，首先第一題……"],["陳院長建仁：接下來還有個人質詢。"],["徐委員欣瑩：喔，對、對、對！","首先第一題是送分題，就是您剛剛也講到了，今天是什麼節日？"],["陳院長建仁：國際婦女節。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，國際婦女節。本席想請教院長，我們現代婦女追求自我成長、經濟獨立，所以投入職場的婦女非常的多，也不亞於男性……"],["陳院長建仁：我們要感謝女性在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：謝謝，院長，我沒請你講話，請不要講喔！","想請教院長的是，您對於現在職場性別平等的推動滿意嗎？就只要回答滿意或不滿意。"],["陳院長建仁：有進步，但是還可以再加強。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，您也認為還可以再加強嘛！所以首先本席想就現在我們公部門跟私部門中女性在職場的平等，包含女性的升遷等各方面，還有擔任高階主管、中階主管及基層主管的情況。就我們的觀察，感覺公部門好像對女性是比較沒有壓抑的，女性的抬頭各方面都比較好，但是在私部門、私人企業的部分，對女性的歧視各方面，或是給女性的升遷管道好像還是比較弱，所以本席在這裡想要請教院長，你是否同意我們應該要鼓勵私部門的中、高階主管，包含基層的女性主管比例提升，您同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我當然同意，我覺得在公、私部門應該是每一個人都按照他的貢獻、按照他的能力來做相關的提升。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那有關私部門的部分，您可不可以在一個月內提一些具體的，您既然認同，可否提出一些具體做法的報告給本席？"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分的話，我想……"],["徐委員欣瑩：提出報告，這邊不要浪費我的時間，因為您認同嘛，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：我請我們的性平處來處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：您責成看哪一個單位，寫一份您也認同的性別平等的報告給本席。"],["陳院長建仁：一個簡單的報告啦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，提報告給本席。","再來，現在有關育嬰留職津貼已經修法，男女雙方，也就是父母都可以申請了，但是申請的比例還是很少……"],["陳院長建仁：女性多。"],["徐委員欣瑩：您知道為什麼嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我不太清楚每一個家庭的狀況，但是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，不太清楚。"],["陳院長建仁：在臺灣的文化的情況下，可能都還認為是媽媽應該……"],["徐委員欣瑩：喔對，即便是媽媽申請的也還不多，原因就是育嬰留職津貼的這個……"],["陳院長建仁：八成薪。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在只有六折，六折薪。","太好了！您講出八折薪，所以那是不是……"],["陳院長建仁：已經八成了。"],["許部長銘春：八成了，兩成是我們公部門……"],["陳院長建仁：已經八成囉。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：公部門已經八成了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：公部門？"],["許部長銘春：私部門也是一樣，就是說六成是……"],["陳院長建仁：六成是私部門的企業付，兩成是政府。"],["許部長銘春：都是用我們的就保基金，另外公務預算還補兩成，去年我們從六成提升到八成。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：公部門，那私部門呢？"],["陳院長建仁：都一樣啊。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：都一樣，都八成。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在都有八成薪？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那本席想請教，為什麼2022年我們的預算是47億，2023年（去年）的預算是33億，到2024年（今年）也是30幾億，既然你之前可以提到47億，現在如果已經到八成，那是不是可以再提高呢？"],["許部長銘春：委員容我說明一下，因為那一年我們是先預估，因為那一年先預估，然後後來……"],["徐委員欣瑩：後來發現是這樣？"],["許部長銘春：對，然後實際隔年……"],["徐委員欣瑩：預估既然可以……"],["許部長銘春：因為我們是先行，我們先做，那時候法還沒有通過，但是我們先做，我們用那個辦法先補，所以那時候有抓寬一點。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，既然可以抓寬一點，所以是不是……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我跟你報告，這個經費第一年因為我們有很大的期望，所以編得比較多，可是發現來申請的人不多……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我知道，我瞭解。既然可以這樣的話，因為現在臺灣少子化的問題，我相信院長還有大家都知道，既然生了，我們當然是讓父母能夠安心的養孩子，很多人沒有申請的原因就是畢竟這個薪資還是打折，他也怕薪水不夠，養家不易，所以是不是可以想辦法再提高？有沒有可能我們的育嬰留職津貼能夠再提高？"],["陳院長建仁：我想八成薪是已經相當……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們就提高到47億元。"],["陳院長建仁：在世界上的狀況來說已經算是相當好了。我想現在的問題除了薪資的保障以外，育兒津貼的保障也是很重要，所以……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我知道、我知道，好，OK。"],["陳院長建仁：這兩邊都要平衡。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。","再來，本席想請教院長，陽光、空氣、水是我們生命的三要素，現在在我們臺灣卻有將近100萬人缺了這三樣中的一項，他現在都還沒有辦法有，您知道是哪一項嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得……"],["徐委員欣瑩：都有了？"],["陳院長建仁：都有耶！就是品質好不好的問題，不是有沒有的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那哪一項的品質比較不好？"],["陳院長建仁：我們有一些鄉鎮有空氣的污染，水的供應的話，確實在原住民的偏鄉的地區，這個水的供應可能需要改善，陽光的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，謝謝。院長說得非常好。我們現在全臺灣還有四、五十萬戶沒有自來水，院長，您可以想像沒有自來水的情況嗎？像您今天穿的白襯衫，如果我們這些偏鄉地區的民眾穿著白襯衫，在沒有自來水的情況下，他用他家的水洗衣服，最後會變黃襯衫。還有，我們平常喝水覺得很自然，都很健康，但是現在還有四十幾萬戶，應該有超過100萬人沒有自來水。已經是民國113年了……"],["陳院長建仁：那是在偏鄉。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在已經民國113年，民生必需的自來水是不是我們應該要用專案來加速讓他們可以擁有自來水？"],["王部長美花：對於偏遠地區沒有自來水這個部分，幾年前開始確實就有一個專案來處理這個事情，這個專案今年結束之後，我們也會提案讓未來再有新的方案持續來支持。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝，謝謝部長。我也看到過去8年，民進黨執政這8年整個未接自來水的補助款，我們發現屏東縣特別多，這8年來給了58億。屏東有兩席立委，所以人口數跟我們新竹縣差不多，我們也有兩席立委。"],["王部長美花：屏東是因為他原來的自來水的占比太低了……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，我沒有請您回答。部長，請暫停。","我們新竹縣這8年只拿了6.8億，一個58億，一個6.8億，剛剛部長也有講，接下來的8年要再為無自來水地區來爭取，那我們希望能夠整體來看，而且要加速，因為這些人也是中華民國的國民，而且他們也同樣都盡各種權利義務，但是為什麼他們沒有自來水喝？這一點我們請院長、部長這邊能夠來加強，可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是不是讓我們的部長簡單的回復一下，好不好？他們是有計畫，不是沒有計畫。"],["王部長美花：是，因為在偏遠地區……"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為本席的時間有限，就是說未來我們能夠加速……"],["王部長美花：有，我們會持續來支持，會再提專案。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為這個東西的急迫性就是自來水，尤其現在其實你說還可以喝溪水或者是河水的，真的，沒有像自來水這樣經過過濾、淨化的品質，喝了都不健康，所以很多民眾真的是非常迫切需要，所以我們希望在未來能夠儘快、能夠加速，也就是說讓這些人儘早有自來水。關於這個部分，部長、院長提出來，我們一定全力支持，但是不要大小眼，每個縣市都能夠……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我簡單的講一下，屏東是原來的人都不用自來水，等到要開始裝設的時候，那個開始的成本比較高，那其他地區我們一定來做。"],["徐委員欣瑩：院長，每個縣市都一樣，南投、新竹、花蓮各地大家都一樣。","接著本席想請教院長，蔡政府執政8年來，有一個數字的成長幅度非常驚人，總共增加了50億，您知道是什麼數字嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：增加50億、超過50億的都很多，像GDP等等，太多數字了！"],["徐委員欣瑩：太多數字了，所以我這樣講大概您沒有辦法知道是什麼。本席跟您說，就是在蔡政府執政前、105年的時候我們臺灣受詐、被詐騙的金額是38億，到去年（112年）衝破88億，成長了50億……"],["陳院長建仁：我跟委員報告一下，我們去年攔阻了111億……"],["徐委員欣瑩：您先不要講，我等一下會問你，我也會給你講話，拜託、拜託！","所以我們政府打詐無能、全民受害！當然，打詐有很多層面，所以今天本席要特別就一個層面來就教於院長，就是民眾受害其中有一項非常多的就是網路上的詐騙廣告，現在網路上詐騙廣告有一個很大的問題就是它沒有實名制的刊登機制，所以院長是不是可以支持所有網路廣告都要實名制？您支持嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們是想往這個方向去做，但是我們還要跟相關的網路平臺來溝通。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，說對了！所以您支持嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：我們是不是把目前做的情形……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，關於現在做的情形，本席其實也參閱了相關資料。我現在就是想要問院長，因為在我們今天的施政總質詢，我想就整體來就教於院長，當然在蔡政府執政這8年並不是都是您當行政院長，但是你現在剛好是第8年，所以由您承擔這一切。本席就是想就這個部分來請院長表態，所以你也支持要實名制，那在支持實名制之外，因為他會被詐騙，網路平臺的業者要不要負連帶的損害賠償責任？我現在就是問院長是否支持平臺業者也要負連帶損害賠償責任？"],["陳院長建仁：對投資詐騙的部分要負連帶的責任。"],["徐委員欣瑩：要嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以院長也認同，那請問行政院能不能在半年內提出具體的方案？這一點可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們現在已經有方案，所以我說要請委員給我們的部長來說明一下已經有的方案，或者我們這樣子，在質詢完以後，我們來告訴委員相關的方案。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以如果已經有方案，那您可以回答嘛！我們能不能在半年內提出具體的方案？"],["唐部長鳳：我還是跟委員說明一下，目前是以金管會的投信投顧法，在投資詐騙方面，如果他沒有實名或者下架的話，有連帶賠償的責任。接下來我們已經把電子簽章法送到立法院了，所以如果能夠及時三讀通過的話，相信之後更多的類型在身分驗證上就更容易。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你講到這個，我正想問你，聽說電子簽章法送到立法院之後要3年才實施，這是怎麼回事？"],["唐部長鳳：不是這樣子的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是？"],["唐部長鳳：在裡面就是我們有一些部會的一些服務，目前是用公告的方式……"],["徐委員欣瑩：多久可以實施？電子簽章法送到立法院，多久可以實施？"],["唐部長鳳：一三讀通過馬上就可以實施。"],["徐委員欣瑩：三讀通過馬上可以實施？"],["唐部長鳳：剛剛講的3年是有些部會目前還只提供一些臨櫃的服務，他需要時間才能改成接受電子簽章。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以加速嗎？不然這些民眾都有……"],["陳院長建仁：我想電子簽章法通過以後，我們會全面的推動各部會來加速。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。","再來本席想請教院長，從去年開始，我們民眾在生活上，特別是在交通上有一項新出來的政策，讓他們滿有感受的，您知道是什麼嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：記點？其實去年開始的時候，就是希望能夠把「行人地獄」這個惡名去掉，所以在大院立法的時候，我們有增加了記點還有處罰的這些項目，當然民眾……"],["徐委員欣瑩：交通的部分有一項民眾特別有感，而且還造成不小民怨的是什麼？您知道是什麼嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：就是違規記點。"],["徐委員欣瑩：違規記點？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：違規記點有很多層面，也對，違規記點造成很大的……"],["陳院長建仁：你講違規記點裡面的小部分是不是？你講的是那個我們所謂的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：科技執法！你知道有科技執法？"],["陳院長建仁：我曉得有科技執法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：去年開始上路的嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們民眾都感受很深，可是院長您有感受到科技執法對您有什麼影響嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，因為你的座車都有交通指揮，你有收過科技執法的罰單嗎？有沒有收過？沒有嘛！因為你都有交通指揮。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席在這裡要請院長您瞭解一下，科技執法被民眾最詬病、最抱怨的到底是什麼，抗議的到底是什麼？就是科技執法造成不少的擾民。首先本席一定要特別強調，我絕對支持科技執法，因為可以精簡一些人力，而且科技帶來便利，我們都非常認同。科技既然是帶來便利，怎麼會變成帶來擾民？首先，本席講一個例子，譬如說，您想像一下，在上下班交通巔峰時間，我們車子要左轉、在十字路口車子要左轉，所以綠燈的時候我是不是可以往前，然後左轉？可是我在路口的時候塞住了，綠燈的話，我車子當然是接著往前，結果沒想到左轉的這邊沒有通暢，接著就出現了紅燈，那你說我會不會被開單？"],["陳院長建仁：可以申訴。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，問題就在這裡！"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：為什麼他明明就不是真正的違規，你還要讓他申訴？這個部分有沒有可能在譬如說開單前還是花一點點……"],["陳院長建仁：判斷。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，判斷，院長您確實也是明理的，就是要判斷啊！不然很多民眾都覺得擾民。","還有救護車，我想會開車的人都知道，救護車來的時候你一定要讓，而且讓的時候，有時候譬如說聽到救護車的聲音，紅燈的話，我還是要跨越紅燈的那個線，我要讓開給它過啊！可是我就被開單了、民眾就被開單了，像這種你等他申訴……"],["陳院長建仁：我懂。"],["徐委員欣瑩：民眾就覺得你沒有科技執法的時候，我還不會這樣，一般民眾有的就摸摸鼻子，但有很多……","我查過，每個縣市都非常多。"],["陳院長建仁：委員你講的是正確的，增加很多的主要是去年我們修了一個和行人道路安全有關的條例以後才多，但是科技執法本身要改進的地方確實需要精進。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以可以嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：這個精進的部分……"],["徐委員欣瑩：科技執法要再加強執行面的改進。"],["陳院長建仁：我跟委員講，我們如果有用AI的幫助，然後做比較長時期的錄影，就能夠知道他為什麼會在那邊等很久。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，很好，院長您說得出這樣……"],["陳院長建仁：我們可以精進。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是現在中央到地方沒有一個統一的SOP。"],["陳院長建仁：這個我們請部長……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，你是完全放任地方在做嘛！"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，科技執法主要是警力不足，所以……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個我們知道了。"],["王部長國材：是。現在是這樣，科技執法事實上……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，這個我沒有要您回答，沒有要回答，我想這個就不要回答了。重點在於，現在科技執法我們希望落實開出罰單前的檢核機制，可不可以？只要回答本席可不可以。"],["王部長國材：對，可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以，很好！"],["王部長國材：一般警員也會這樣做，就是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：一般警員也會，所以減少這種擾民的情況。"],["王部長國材：對，就是要開罰單之前他也會確認。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，非常好！請問院長，像科技執法的地點，您會知道它怎麼決定的嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：科技執法的地點，因為它在裝設的過程當中是地方政府比較清楚，它會按照以往違規的數目有多少、肇事的數目有多少，來判定什麼地方要做。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，但真正的執行面，我們希望中央能夠有一個統一的SOP。因為科技執法地點，誰最知道哪個路口它最需要……"],["陳院長建仁：地方嘛！"],["徐委員欣瑩：一定是地方。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：要嘛里長嘛，民意代表，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然警察單位裝設的，所以它會最清楚，還有交通單位、地方政府，您剛剛也提到，還有可能是一些民意代表，他們會接受到最多民眾陳情，而且生活在那裡最瞭解。所以未來是不是地點決策的SOP裡面可以召集相關單位能夠共同開個會，聽取大家的意見，然後我們再來執行？"],["陳院長建仁：好，這個我想我們會請地方政府就像你講的一樣，參照警察機關相關的數據，還有民眾的反映，來做比較好的設置，但是在設置的過程當中，我想以往的數據可能是一個很重要的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，院長，如果可以，您就承諾可以，未來是不是可以我們就朝這個方向……"],["陳院長建仁：就是要地方政府來一起配合啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對、對，所以中央應該也可以提出一些SOP的建議，或者是……"],["陳院長建仁：我們可以提一些建議。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK！再來本席想請教院長，不管公務單位或私人單位，有的時候有人勇於揭弊，就是有一些弊案的揭弊者，您覺得他最擔心的是什麼？第一個，他的工作權；第二個，他的人身自由；第三個，以上皆是。"],["陳院長建仁：應該是以上皆是吧！我個人覺得。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，絕對是以上皆是，我們將心比心嘛！對，以上皆是！所以我們現在非常需要吹哨者保護法，或是說揭弊者保護法，像現在有很多潛在的吹哨者很怕被秋後算帳，所以想請問院長，您是否支持吹哨者保護法，或稱為揭弊者保護法儘速立法？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這個立法……"],["徐委員欣瑩：您支不支持？我就是想瞭解您的態度就好。"],["陳院長建仁：我支持有吹哨者的保護，但是要分階段，原因是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK！執行層面……"],["陳院長建仁：原因是公部門先，然後再來私部門。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，可以，這個階段沒有問題。再來，針對這個揭弊者保護法，本席也想請教，因為目前草案都還沒有送到立法院，牛步進行！所以本席也想在這裡提出四大訴求：第一個，公私部門都要納入，您剛剛有說先公部門，接著私部門；第二個，要有防黑函誣告機制；第三個，不能秋後算帳；第四個原則當然就是保障吹哨者或揭弊者的工作權，以及人身安全的保護機制要儘早介入。請問院長支持嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想你的這個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：支持嗎？支持嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不要急嘛！"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，我時間不夠，不是急，我時間有限。院長……"],["陳院長建仁：你的訴求我可以列入考慮，但是我剛才講過，你說公私部門都要納入，我們會有先後之分。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，沒關係嘛！要有先後，但你也認同可以納入，所以院長應該是認同。事實上，去年7月法務部版本好像送去行政院之後就沒有下文了，所以……"],["陳院長建仁：還在研議當中。"],["徐委員欣瑩：院長，我的時間有限，是不是可以提一個具體時間？什麼時候行政院可以把行政院版的吹哨者保護法送到立法院？"],["陳院長建仁：因為現在還在法務部審議，是不是讓部長講一下？"],["徐委員欣瑩：時間喔，部長請講時間就好。"],["蔡部長清祥：因為前後有很多不同的版本，我們尊重行政院的指示一直在修正……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，重點是你預計什麼時候？"],["蔡部長清祥：而且審議了12次之多。"],["徐委員欣瑩：預估、預估！做事情都要有個期程。"],["蔡部長清祥：行政院也審議了12次之多，所以我們還會繼續……"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是預計什麼時候啊？總可以有個預計吧？"],["蔡部長清祥：行政院一定會儘快地協調各方的意見。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們的政府做事情都沒有期程、沒有目標！你至少訂一個目標，什麼時候？"],["蔡部長清祥：我想行政院一定會儘快地把各地方、大家的意見整合以後，很快的來送。"],["徐委員欣瑩：民進黨執政就是「儘快」，沒有期程目標！總是要訂啊！如果不行，你當然才知道要再加速，你沒訂時間、永遠儘快，你就會一直拖。"],["蔡部長清祥：已經有一個相當完整的版本了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，本席要接著問下一題了。","院長，我們內閣中有一個在作為上非常叛逆的部會，您知道是哪一個嗎？您認為是哪一個？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得我們內閣每一個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有？好，你認為沒有。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那本席很快說明一下。像外交部，他一定會到駐在國，他的職責就是要去外交、對外各國，他不會都一直留在臺灣；僑委會他的目的就是接觸僑胞，希望讓僑民各方面的事務可以進行；客委會一定接觸客家鄉親；原住民委員會接觸原住民，都有良性的互動。但是我們的陸委會好像是不溝通、不協調，然後不接觸，也沒有實質作為。這個部分本席要特別在這裡提出來：我們內政委員會這3天都有陸委會答詢的專案報告，本席質詢的時候發現陸委會在我們講到M503航線的時候推給交通部；我們農產品禁止登陸問題推給農業部；金廈海域執法問題再推給海委會、海巡署，所以所有事情都甩鍋其他單位……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，他沒有甩鍋，因為他是做整合。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好像陸委會主委可以像行政院長一樣，分配工作給各部會，我不知道我們陸委會……"],["陳院長建仁：他是在幫助各部會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我不知道我們陸委會存在的價值！陸委會一年的預算9億元，海基會3億元，我們整個現在執政的政府，只有臺灣政策，沒有大陸政策，所以放任陸委會、海基會不溝通、不交流、不協調……"],["陳院長建仁：這我不同意。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以很多兩岸的問題僵化，譬如我們客委會絕對不會說所有臺灣的客家人全部來抵制，或者是有問題都不去溝通協調。不會嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：這個我不太同意。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以讓兩岸的關係down到零下3。C，這二個單位既然down到那麼低，是不是剛好可以凍起來？"],["陳院長建仁：我想陸委會盡了很大的努力，我們的臺胞或者臺生受到很好的照顧。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們兩岸的官方一直是不相往來的局面，我們真的要建議考慮，如果現在的執政都沒有辦法兩岸多對談，然後也不互相交流的話，那是不是這個存廢可以來考慮，而不只是拿來酬庸？"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席在這裡，我今天的質詢主要是針對這個……"],["陳院長建仁：OK，好，你要我回答的時候我來回答。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我時間真的不夠了。","最後，院長知道民進黨執政8年，有一個案子空轉8年，這個案子空轉8年，而且會一直開一直開，然後召集人一直換一直換，然後所有的問題每一次開會就一直是一樣的問題，可以一樣開一樣開，連地方政府、連民眾都受不了了，正反兩方每次叫去講一樣的話，這樣子可以做8年耶！然後每一次開會的時候相關單位都到，開完會以後，相關單位都到，然後我們都已經徵詢大家的意見，開完會回去繼續函詢各單位，就這樣一直空轉一直空轉。院長，你知道是什麼計畫嗎？應該是不知道。沒關係，因為你手上行政院的計畫太多了，本席要告訴你，那就是臺灣知識經濟旗艦園區，還有科學園區三期計畫。我們行政院在今年2月22號核定了一個「桃竹苗大矽谷計畫」，這個計畫您知道吧？你就回答知道或不知道？"],["陳院長建仁：知道，在本院已經有通過。"],["徐委員欣瑩：行政院的「桃竹苗大矽谷計畫」寫得很漂亮，願景寫得很好：引領全球的產業生態圈，深化先進製程以及技術開發，確保半導體根留臺灣。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：真的非常好！臺知園區的計畫跟科三期，它也是催生高科技研發園區，而且臺知園區這個計畫裡面也有整個國立交通大學。您也知道國立交通大學裡面就是培養很多的科技人才，也是各種的研發，在臺灣來說，我想也是數一數二的，但是為什麼這個案子一直是牛步進行，而且一直空轉？民眾都說空轉輪迴都一樣這樣在做。所以本席在這裡要很快地請教院長，這個案子所有的問題都解決了，但是我們行政院、我們中央一直換召集人，每次一換召集人，所有的步驟又全部重來，所有的都重來，過去開過會的，一而再、再而三都一樣，其實民間已經對我們中央執政這樣子非常的反感。"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在請您回答的就是，是不是可以儘速核定？"],["陳院長建仁：新竹縣政府已經依審查的意見在最近補件送到內政部審議，所以我們會來加速審議。"],["徐委員欣瑩：院長，我沒有時間了，我剩下20秒。"],["陳院長建仁：我們加速審議。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是不是可以儘速核定？"],["陳院長建仁：這一定要審議完才能夠核定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你就是一直輪迴的審議！你都審議了，都是一樣的，沒有更新的。"],["陳院長建仁：但是新竹縣政府都不斷地補充意見，表示他們也認同嘛，才會要補充意見進來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有、沒有，都補充過了！中央還是要求補充，是一模一樣的，都補充過了。"],["陳院長建仁：有很多的部分中央地方要合作，然後……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我的時間到了。"],["陳院長建仁：很多的意見，如果一次補充一個，還不夠嘛，要繼續補充。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員欣瑩的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","報告院會，本會期排定政黨質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，謝謝陳院長、鄭副院長以及各部會首長列席答詢。","3月12日（星期二）上午9時繼續開會，進行立法委員個人質詢內政組之質詢。現在休息。","休息（17時32分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃健豪","沈發惠","柯志恩","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","王育敏","張宏陸","陳菁徽","羅美玲","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":24,"meetingDate":["2024-03-08"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00002","1130601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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這個院長說得非常好。 我們現在全台灣還有四五十萬戶沒有自來水。 院長您可以想像沒有自來水的情況嗎?"},{"start":431.218,"end":451.767,"text":"像您今天穿的白襯衫,如果我們這些偏鄉地區的民眾穿著白襯衫,那他每次來水清華街他用他家的水洗衣服,最後變黃襯衫,變黃襯衫。還有我們平常喝水覺得很自然,這個都很健康,但是現在還有40幾萬戶,應該有超過100萬人以上。"},{"start":454.648,"end":471.245,"text":"沒有自來水,已經是民國113年了,這個民生必需的自來水是不是我們應該要用專案來加速讓他們可以擁有自來水?"},{"start":472.799,"end":498.767,"text":"對沒有偏遠地區沒有自來水這個部分就是幾年前開始確實就有一個專案來處理這個事情那這個專案今年結束之後我們也會提案讓未來再有新的方案持續來支持好謝謝謝謝部長那我也看到過去8年民進黨執政這8年整個的這個未接自來水的補助款我們發現呢"},{"start":500.981,"end":501.001,"text":"請暫停。"},{"start":521.741,"end":550.392,"text":"我們新竹縣呢這8年只拿了6.8億一個58億一個6.8億所以剛剛部長有講接下來的8年接下來要在為這個無自來水地區來爭取那我們希望能夠整體來看而且加速因為這些人他們也是中華民國的國民而且他們也是同樣都盡各種權利義務但是為什麼他們沒有自來水喝"},{"start":551.252,"end":555.256,"text":"這一點,我們請院長、部長這邊呢,我們能夠來加強,可以嗎?"},{"start":555.256,"end":572.492,"text":"是不是給我們的部長簡單的回顧一下,好不好?他們有計畫了,不是沒有計畫了。 是,是,那因為在偏遠地區,因為我的本席的時間,就是說未來我們能夠加速,我們會持續來支持,會專案會來再提。 因為這個東西它的急迫性就是水。"},{"start":573.433,"end":573.913,"text":"﹚徐欣瑩﹚"},{"start":599.379,"end":605.901,"text":"委員我簡單的講一下那個屏東是原來就原來的人都不用自來水等到要開始裝設的時候那個開始的成本比較高"},{"start":618.446,"end":637.945,"text":"每個縣市都一樣,南投、新竹、花蓮各方面大家都一樣。接著本席想請教院長蔡政府執政8年來有一個數字成長幅度非常驚人,總共增加了50億,您知道是什麼數字嗎?"},{"start":638.806,"end":639.086,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":652.796,"end":669.665,"text":"就是我們蔡政府執政前105年的時候我們臺灣受詐被詐騙的金額是38億到去年112年衝破88億那我跟委員報告一下我等下會問你我也會給你話講拜託拜託所以呢我們政府啊"},{"start":676.488,"end":695.602,"text":"打詐無能全民受害那當然打詐有很多層面所以今天本席要特別就一個層面來就教於院長就是民眾受害其中有一項非常多的就是網路上的詐騙廣告"},{"start":696.963,"end":709.593,"text":"所以網路上詐騙廣告現在很大一個問題是他沒有實名制的刊登機制所以院長是不是可以支持所有網路廣告都要實名制您支持嗎?"},{"start":710.991,"end":726.19,"text":"我們是想往這個方向去做,但是我們還要跟相關的平台、網路平台來溝通嘛。所以您支持嘛。那我們是不是目前做的情形,你先...沒有沒有,做的情形本席其實相關資料我也閱讀了齁。"},{"start":727.031,"end":755.941,"text":"我現在就是想要問院長因為我們今天這個施政總質詢我想就整體來就教於院長因為院長您當然這個蔡政府這8年不是都是您當行政院長但是你現在是剛好這個第8年所以您承擔這一切所以本席就是想就這個來請院長表態所以您也支持支持要實名制那支持實名制之外"},{"start":757.199,"end":760.1,"text":"請問行政院能不能在半年內提出具體的方案?"},{"start":786.049,"end":789.772,"text":"目前是以金管會的這個投信投估法在投資詐騙方面如果他沒有"},{"start":813.855,"end":817.878,"text":"您講到這我正想問電子簽章法聽說送到立法院之後要三年才實施這是怎麼回事?"},{"start":817.878,"end":818.218,"text":"不是這樣子的"},{"start":834.488,"end":862.387,"text":"那個在裡面就是我們有一些部會就是他的一些服務目前是用公告的方法開始使用。 那你多久可以實施?電子簽章法通過立法院多久可以實施?一三度通過馬上就可以實施。剛剛講的三年是有些部會目前還只提供一些臨櫃的服務他需要時間才能改成接受電子簽章。 那可以加速嗎?不然民眾這些民眾都有...我想各部會的電子簽章法通過以後我們會全面的來推動各部會來加速。"},{"start":864.296,"end":880.041,"text":"謝謝。那再來本席想請教院長,從去年開始,我們民眾在生活上,特別是在交通上,有一項新出來的政策讓他們蠻有感受的,您知道是什麼嗎?"},{"start":883.775,"end":884.716,"text":"就是違規祭典"},{"start":911.528,"end":933.096,"text":"違規祭典違規祭典有很多層面所以也對違規祭典造成很大的違規祭典裡面的小部分是不是就是你講的是那個我們所謂的科技執法你知道有科技執法這個嗎我曉得有科技執法科技執法去年開始上路的我們民眾都感受很深可是"},{"start":934.198,"end":959.962,"text":"院長您有感受到科技執法對您有什麼影響嗎?沒有,因為你的坐車都有交通指揮。你有收過科技執法的罰單嗎?有沒有收過?沒有嘛,因為你不會,你都有交通指揮。本席在這裡要請院長您了解一下科技執法被民眾最詬病、最抱怨的到底是什麼?抗議的到底是什麼?"},{"start":960.862,"end":965.783,"text":"就是科技執法造成不少的擾民,也就是說"},{"start":968.209,"end":994.801,"text":"首先本席一定要特別強調我絕對支持科技執法因為可以精簡一些人力而且科技帶來便利我們都非常認同那科技既然是帶來便利怎麼會變成帶來擾民那首先本席講一個例子就是比如說您想像在上下班交通巔峰時間我們車子要左轉在十字路口車子要左轉"},{"start":995.401,"end":995.581,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":1017.629,"end":1042.298,"text":"他明明就不是真正的違規你還要讓他申訴這個部分有沒有可能在比如說你開單前你還是花一點點判斷所以院長您這個確實也是這個明理的就是要判斷啊不然很多民眾都覺得還有救護車我想大家都知道會開車的都知道救護車來你一定要讓而且讓的時候有的時候"},{"start":1043.138,"end":1056.004,"text":"例如說聽到救護車聲音我紅燈我還是要跨越那個紅燈的那個線我要讓開給他過啊我就被開了就民眾就被開了那像這種你等他申訴"},{"start":1058.034,"end":1060.915,"text":"委員這是你講的是正確的,但是那個增加很多的是主要是去年我們修了一個"},{"start":1079.784,"end":1082.386,"text":"但是現在中央到地方沒有一個統一的SOP"},{"start":1108.615,"end":1110.076,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":1133.53,"end":1136.891,"text":"請問院長,像科技執法的地點,您會知道他怎麼決定的嗎?"},{"start":1157.679,"end":1157.839,"text":"﹚徐欣瑩"},{"start":1174.048,"end":1174.228,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":1201.715,"end":1202.595,"text":"請地方政府倡照檢察機關相關的數據還有民眾的反應"},{"start":1222.022,"end":1222.982,"text":"我們可以提給一些建議。"},{"start":1248.647,"end":1273.924,"text":"好那再來本席想請教院長這個我們不管公務單位或私人單位有的時候有人勇於揭弊就是有一些弊案揭弊者您覺得他最擔心的是什麼?第一個他的工作權第二個他的人身自由第三個以上皆是"},{"start":1276.18,"end":1297.438,"text":"應該以上皆是吧,我個人覺得。對,絕對是,以上皆是,我們將心比心嘛。對,以上皆是,所以我們現在非常需要吹哨者保護法,也或是說接避者保護法。那,像現在有很多潛在的吹哨者呢,他很怕被秋後算帳。"},{"start":1298.502,"end":1316.932,"text":"所以想請問院長您是否支持吹哨者保護法或稱為接避者保護法進促立法。我想這個立法……您支不支持我就是想了解您的態度就好。我支持有吹哨者的保護但是要分階段。"},{"start":1317.792,"end":1319.533,"text":"因為目前草案都還沒有送到立法院"},{"start":1332.702,"end":1360.938,"text":"那牛部進行,所以本席也想在這裡提出四大訴求。第一個,公私部門都要納入。您剛剛有說先公部門接著私部門。第二個,要有防黑函誣告機制。第三個,不能秋後算帳。第四個原則當然就是保障吹哨者或接避者的工作權以及人身安全的保護機制要儘早介入。請問院長支持嗎?"},{"start":1361.798,"end":1363.099,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":1391.182,"end":1399.228,"text":"因為現在還在法務部審議,是不是讓部長講一下,好不好?因為前後有很多不同的版本,那我們一直尊重行政院的指示,一直在修正,所以現在而且審議的格子不多。"},{"start":1418.484,"end":1422.691,"text":"行政院也審議了12次之多啦,所以我們還會繼續。 我想行政院一定會盡快的協調各方的意見。"},{"start":1434.077,"end":1463.457,"text":"我想行政院一定會盡快的把各地方大家的意見整合以後,很快的來送。民進黨執政就是盡快,沒有期程目標,總是要定啊。那你如果不行你當然才知道我要再加速,你沒定時間永遠盡快你就一直拖。已經有一個相當完整的版本了。沒關係,來,好,本席要接著問下一題了。院長,我們內閣中有一個非常,在作為上非常叛逆的部會,您知道是哪一個嗎?您認為是哪一個?"},{"start":1464.357,"end":1465.358,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":1491.817,"end":1510.873,"text":"但是呢我們的陸委會呢好像是不溝通不協調然後不接觸也沒有實質作為那這個部分本席呢要特別在這裡提出來在這個我們內政委員會呢這三天都有陸委會的這個答詢"},{"start":1513.695,"end":1538.413,"text":"的專案報告本席質詢的時候發現陸委會呢我們講到M503航線的時候推給這個交通部那我們農產品禁止登陸問題呢推給農業部那今夏海域執法問題再推給海委會海巡署所以呢所有事情都甩鍋其他單位沒有他沒有甩鍋因為他去做整合所以"},{"start":1539.173,"end":1560.779,"text":"好像陸委會主委呢可以像行政院長一樣分配工作給各部會。我不知道我們陸委會存在的價值一年陸委會的預算9億元海基會3億元那我們整個的現在的執政的政府呢只有台灣政策沒有大陸政策。"},{"start":1561.799,"end":1582.686,"text":"所以放任陸委會海基會呢就是不溝通不交流不協調所以很多兩岸的問題僵化比如說我們客委會絕對不會說哇所有的台灣的客家人全部來這個抵制或者是對這個有問題都不去溝通協調不會嘛"},{"start":1583.286,"end":1609.167,"text":"所以讓兩岸的關係盪到零下三度西。所以呢是不是這兩個單位剛好竟然盪到那麼低可以剛好動起來。所以我們對於兩岸官方一直是不相往來的局面。我們真的要建議考慮那如果現在的執政都沒有辦法這個兩岸"},{"start":1612.025,"end":1613.666,"text":"委員長您知道民進黨執政8年有一個案子空轉8年這個案子空轉8年而且會一直開一直開"},{"start":1640.458,"end":1664.238,"text":"然後召集人一直換一直換然後所有的問題每一次開會每一次開會就一直的這個一樣的問題可以一樣開一樣開連地方政府連民眾都受不了了正反兩方每次教訓講一樣的話這樣子可以做8年耶然後那每一次開會的時候相關單位都知道"},{"start":1665.555,"end":1665.635,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":1687.542,"end":1705.732,"text":"臺灣知識經濟旗艦園區還有科學園區三期計劃。 那我們行政院在今年2月22日合併了一個桃竹苗大細股計劃。 這個計劃您知道吧?您就回答知道或不知道。 知道,在本院已經有通過。"},{"start":1706.472,"end":1721.795,"text":"桃竹苗大細股計畫,這個計畫行政院的計畫寫得很漂亮,它院景寫得很好。引領全球的產業生態圈,深化先進製程以及技術開發,確保半導體耕留台灣,真的非常好。"},{"start":1722.256,"end":1747.737,"text":"那台資園區的計畫跟柯山崎他也是催生高科技研發園區而且台資園區的這個計畫裡面也有整個交大交通國立交通大學那您也知道國立交通大學裡面就是培養很多的科技人才也是各種的研發在臺灣來說我想也是最這個數一數二的但是為什麼這個案子"},{"start":1748.277,"end":1749.718,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":1772.619,"end":1772.999,"text":"我可以回答嗎?"},{"start":1789.8,"end":1810.365,"text":"我現在請您回答就是說是不是可以盡速核定?是不是?新竹縣政府已經依審查的意見在最近補件了來送到這個內政部審議。所以我們會來加速審議。那是不是可以盡速核定?我要是不是可以盡速核定?這一定要審議完才能夠核定啊。"},{"start":1810.725,"end":1836.834,"text":"謝謝﹖"}]}},{"id":"149609","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149609","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e7383c0ce4a703cc0915a56889f100ccd230da91660cc9cbf8ba9b0039caa7a6617961a7114e88395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"16:45:10 - 17:01:03","影片長度":"00:15:53","會議時間":"2024-03-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-08","duration":953,"end_time":"2024-03-08T17:01:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-08T16:45:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":723,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（16時45分）謝謝主席。有請陳院長。"],["主席：請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：羅委員午安，恭喜你當選連任，然後祝你婦女節快樂。"],["羅委員美玲：謝謝院長，院長你也辛苦了。"],["陳院長建仁：不會。"],["羅委員美玲：今天是婦女節，我也先祝在場的女士們婦女節快樂。院長，在上一屆本席就已經跟你探討過我國的通譯制度，本席除了跟院長探討之外，跟相關的單位也曾經做過很多次溝通，去年我也開了公聽會，聽取專家學者的一些意見。當然在這裡，我要特別感謝我們林萬億政委還有我們內政部有邀集了相關的機關，我們擬定了通譯制度精進試辦計畫，而且這個計畫在今年的4月1號就要上路了，當然這是我國通譯制度往前邁進一個很好的現象。","針對這個精進計畫，我有看到主責單位就是我們內政部移民署，移民署這邊提出了四個面向，針對這四個面向提出了檢討跟改善的目標。我們來先看有哪四個面向，第一個面向就是華語文程度。華語文程度現行的狀況，除了檢察署跟警察機關有明訂需求跟測驗之外，其他機關並沒有這個規範。現在我們所推動的這個試辦計畫裡面，就有設定華語文能力的門檻，比如說華語文能力測驗的聽讀及口語能力，必須在B1以上。","培訓課程則是本席最重視的一部分，像培訓的課程過去都是大同小異，而且課程的時數真的非常得少，只有8到15個小時，這跟歐美通譯制度的培訓差很多，歐美幾乎都到100小時以上，現在我們全面提升培訓的時間至少要14個小時，這個時數也讓我覺得無法接受。雖然我們說要改善，可是培訓課程的時間真的還是讓人沒有辦法接受，基礎課程6個小時，專業課程至少8個小時。","通譯的費用可能是讓通譯人員覺得比較安慰的地方，因為除了司法通譯由法務部全責辦理之外，像其他的公共事務通譯，現況是每個小時平均300塊，現在我們提升到每個小時500塊，夜間還有加倍的付費。","詞彙資料庫這個部分，我們現行的詞彙資料庫是以中英文對照為主，對於醫療、司法跟移民事務這些各領域的專用詞彙中，東南亞語是非常少的。現在在這個計畫裡面，新住民發展基金補助建置越南跟印尼語各100個字，然後各個機關逐年開發建置常用的資料庫，詞彙納入國教院的樂詞網，這是我所看到的，就是前後會有這樣子的改善，可是這個改善真的有達到之前我們所談到的，有解決我們之前所討論的那些問題嗎？待會可能要請教我們院長。","像課程時數好了，本席剛剛有提到，基礎6個小時，專業至少8個小時，是不是真的足夠？我們來看一下，現在我們的組別有分成5個組別，司法通譯、警政業務、醫療衛生，還有就業服務跟移民輔導。我挑一個跟院長有關係的醫療衛生好了，在這個計畫裡面，總共有12個小時是專業課程的部分。院長你看，人體構造與基礎知識1個小時，就醫、檢查與治療流程常見用語訓練及演練2個小時，內科醫療常見用語訓練2個小時，外科醫療常見用語訓練2個小時，後面零零總總全部加起來12個小時。基礎6個小時，再加上這12個小時，總共18個小時後，他就要去考試。經過考試後取得認證，就可以當通譯人員，院長，可以想像得到嗎？經過18個小時他就要上場做通譯！這些醫療用語，院長，我之前也跟您提過，這些醫療用語都非常非常專業。但在這個計畫裡，前前後後十幾個小時他就必須上場，必須當醫療專業人員的翻譯。某個移工去就診說肚子痛，也許醫生說這可能是腹膜炎，這有辦法去翻譯嗎？可能到資料庫裡面去抓，可是還有其他的專業名詞，真的有辦法去因應嗎？請問院長。"],["陳院長建仁：這部分因為我不曉得詳細的課程內容……"],["羅委員美玲：是，我們連課程內容都搞不清楚。可是我們不要看內容，光2個小時、1個小時這時數就讓人家覺得無法接受！"],["陳院長建仁：這就要看這個被訓練的人員他本身的基本知識夠不夠，如果基本知識就需要再加強時，當然就會有差。也就是說，被訓的人如果本身有醫療背景當然就比較好一點。如果沒有的話……"],["羅委員美玲：院長，跟您報告，這些去上課的受訓人員絕大部分都是嫁到臺灣來的新住民。"],["陳院長建仁：我曉得。"],["羅委員美玲：您瞭解？"],["陳院長建仁：我曉得，所以……"],["羅委員美玲：您認為，新住民會講越南語也好，會講印尼語也好，真的有辦法確確實實去做這些專業名詞的翻譯嗎？真的有辦法嗎？像司法通譯也是一樣，檢察業務簡介2個小時，法律常識3個小時，偵查程序概要3個小時，實務演練3個小時，還有演練3個小時，再通過考試，我想考試的內容絕對就是上課內容，但實務上面遇到的絕對超過上課內容！不管用的名詞也好，用的這些語言也好，也許跟母國都沒有關係。也許他的知識只侷限在所上課的內容，可是在實務操作上，絕對遠遠超過這些內容！"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，剛剛委員舉的例子是醫療衛生，以醫療衛生來講，不要說新住民，我們的國人如果沒有受過醫療訓練的話，很多東西其實也沒有辦法瞭解，也沒有辦法說明給他的家屬去瞭解，但是……"],["羅委員美玲：部長，你也承認了……"],["薛部長瑞元：但這是基礎訓練……"],["羅委員美玲：我們有進階訓練嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：不是，真正所謂的訓練是實際上去操作，所以對這些通譯人員，我們的建議當然就是，如果你是屬於醫療衛生這一組的話，就固定在這一組，因為你這樣才能夠……"],["羅委員美玲：部長是說邊做邊學的意思？"],["薛部長瑞元：本來就是這樣，因為……"],["羅委員美玲：本來就是這樣？萬一如果翻譯錯誤……"],["薛部長瑞元：不可能把所有都學好再上陣。"],["羅委員美玲：部長也許覺得衛生醫療可以邊做邊學，那我想請教司法通譯呢？司法通譯怎麼辦？為什麼我會舉這個例子？我跟各位講一個很真實的案例。","在好幾年前有一位來自菲律賓的家庭看護工，他剛來臺灣就被雇主猥褻，當然他要去投訴……薛部長請回。","這個看護工就跟仲介公司投訴，換了一個雇主，可是更糟糕，第二個雇主居然就性侵了他，這是真實的案例。這名菲律賓家庭看護工最後當然就是報案，兩個案子他都報案了，後來也走了司法程序。可是最後判決出來是第一個雇主沒事，第二個雇主的性侵案也不成立，這位菲律賓的家庭看護工覺得沒有辦法接受。這位菲律賓的看護工不會中文，也不會英語，不是所有菲律賓的外籍移工都會講英文，他只會講菲律賓的泰加洛語，當然判決書他看不懂，他敗訴，他不知道為什麼，他就跟他的朋友說，在我們的母國性侵害者是要被判刑的，為什麼臺灣不用？到後來他找了人家來看了他的判決書後，他非常的崩潰，裡面怎麼寫呢？說他的說詞前後不一，還說他是個騙子。為什麼會前後不一？這跟什麼有關係？這跟通譯的專業度有關係。","法務部長可看一下過去曾經有這個案子，他必須去警局做筆錄，有一位通譯，檢察官偵訊時也有一位通譯，到法院開庭時也有通譯，都有通譯陪伴，可是通譯都不是同一位。通譯都不是同一位，說實在我們也知道在司法判決時，你的證詞有沒有前後一致是很重要的，結果說他前後都不一致，可是這位受害者說自己前後都是一致的啊，那麼為什麼會不一致？因為通譯翻譯的都不一樣。通譯翻出來的內容都不一樣，造成最後他居然是二個案子都不成立，他是一個受害者，這是真實發生的事情喔！","所以本席覺得通譯問題就是人權問題，但我覺得到現在為止，臺灣，我們的中央政府對通譯覺得好像不過就是個翻譯而已嘛，而且這麼多年了，通譯問題我們談論了很多很多年，可是就是沒有一套、一個統一的認證制度，專業課程也沒有，我所看到的這個計畫，隨隨便便上幾個小時的課他就必須上場做翻譯了。","再來，還有讓我失望的是這個計畫的主責單位竟然是移民署，移民署是一個三級單位，為什麼會是在移民署？這麼重要的專業通譯制度，竟然是落在三級機關移民署，我想移民署也很無奈，沒有人也沒有經費。院長，我想這個部分真的是要審慎來做思考，真的要審慎做思考！教育部的角色在哪裡？國發會的角色在哪裡？我們現在只是說國教院，詞彙納入國教院的詞庫，但其他的呢？教育部沒有角色嗎？國發會沒有角色嗎？這是一個很重要的問題，為什麼從上一屆到現在我會不斷地跟院長討論？因為我們的通譯制度真的真的有很大的困境。再來還有就是因為移民署叫不動其他部會，所以一樣還是下放到各部會各自辦理。一樣下放到縣市政府各自去辦理，培訓到現在為止還是一樣，我們的取得資格、認證資格還是不一樣，要怎麼測驗由各部會自己去認證吧，勞保也沒有，專業保險也沒有，意外險什麼的都沒有，所以很多通譯人員就把通譯工作當成是打零工，就是一個副業，所有人才都跑到別的領域去了！","所以我在這裡真的是很語重心長，其實我上次就已經說過了，請去參考澳洲的NAATI這個機構，也就是澳洲的國家翻譯及口譯認證機構，這個認證機構是在1977年設立的，在NAATI成立以前，澳洲政府是先輔導民間成立一個專業通譯協會叫做AUSIT，由它來規範培訓課程，等到AUSIT成熟之後，輔導它成熟變成一個獨立運作機構之後，才成立NAATI，所以他們二個的角色是說，AUSIT是培訓機構，NAATI是認證機構。所以我在這裡真的要拜託我們行政單位，真的要認真看待臺灣的通譯制度，這整個過程都要非常非常的嚴謹，臺灣什麼時候才能夠認真來看待？尤其是在臺灣的外來人口越來越多的狀況之下，再來我們馬上也要引進印度的移工，所以一個完善的通譯制度真的非常非常重要。所以我在這裡真的要拜託我們各個單位跨部會來討論一下未來我們臺灣的通譯制度要如何走。院長，還有一點時間，讓你回復一下。"],["陳院長建仁：好，上一次您也提到這個問題，我們雖然有移民署在做相關的精進，不過考慮澳洲制度可行性的話，我們會請一位相關的政委來先考慮一下各部會，然後看看這個AUSIT的結構怎麼樣，因為我們上次的情況是由移民署在進行。"],["羅委員美玲：謝謝院長，大家加油啦！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員美玲的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第56號徐委員欣瑩質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃健豪","沈發惠","柯志恩","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","王育敏","張宏陸","陳菁徽","羅美玲","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":24,"meetingDate":["2024-03-08"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00002","1130601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130601_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.972843750000003,"end":23.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.80784375,"end":25.191593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.33846875,"end":31.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.38471875,"end":34.658468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.70534375,"end":32.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.84409375,"end":37.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.03784375,"end":37.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.79721875,"end":41.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.11721875,"end":49.322843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.508468750000006,"end":86.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.78096875,"end":91.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.21909375,"end":95.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.42534375000001,"end":143.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.82284375,"end":209.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.88846875000002,"end":212.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.07784375,"end":218.98409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.65909375,"end":225.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.98721875,"end":259.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.49659375000005,"end":281.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.23596875000004,"end":301.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.14409375,"end":318.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.49159375,"end":341.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.69909375000003,"end":342.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.31909375000004,"end":344.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.88846875,"end":346.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.30596875000003,"end":355.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.63346875,"end":359.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.89034375,"end":366.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.56034375,"end":370.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.90596875,"end":368.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.38221875000005,"end":372.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.70284375,"end":373.91346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.03159375,"end":379.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.87034375,"end":384.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.08471875000004,"end":386.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.50221875,"end":390.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.04159375,"end":392.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.19346875,"end":397.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.96034375000005,"end":402.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.98971875,"end":400.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.33971875000003,"end":412.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.41784375000003,"end":431.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.36846875000003,"end":432.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.62159375000005,"end":440.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.55284375,"end":444.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.09221875000003,"end":453.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.12034375,"end":461.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.55471875,"end":456.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.51159375000003,"end":481.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.20971875000004,"end":478.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.93034375,"end":483.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.03159375,"end":484.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.51221875000005,"end":490.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.50284375,"end":501.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.64909375,"end":503.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.70346875,"end":505.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.29409375000006,"end":503.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.17159375000006,"end":508.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.85471875,"end":510.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.40284375000005,"end":519.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.7978437500001,"end":521.0634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.0759687500001,"end":522.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.2065937500001,"end":529.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.24034375,"end":523.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.94909375,"end":523.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.41221875,"end":536.8584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.1672187500001,"end":532.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.34784375,"end":541.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.6172187500001,"end":545.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.61221875,"end":552.07971875},{"speak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院長我之前也跟你講過跟你提過就是說這些醫療用語都是非常非常的專業這個計劃裡面前前後後就十幾個小時他就必須上場然後呢必須跟我們的醫療專業人員當他們的翻譯有某個移工他去就診"},{"start":344.957,"end":349.099,"text":"這部分因為我不曉得這個詳細的課程的內容了。 是我們連課程內容我們都搞不清楚嘛可是我們不要看內容兩個小時一個小時"},{"start":371.448,"end":390.22,"text":"那個時數就讓人家覺得無法接受欸就要看這一個被訓練的人員他本身的基本知識夠不夠如果他基本知識就需要再加強的時候當然這就有差啦就是說那個被訓的人如果本身是有醫療背景那當然就比較好一點"},{"start":391.241,"end":409.089,"text":"議員長跟您報告,這些去上課的受訓人員,絕大部分都是嫁到臺灣來的新住民。您會瞭解哦。您認為說新住民他們會講越南語也好,會講印尼語也好,真的有辦法去確確實實的去做這個專業名詞的這個……"},{"start":413.462,"end":431.321,"text":"翻譯嗎?真的有辦法嗎?像司法同意也是一樣,檢查業務簡介2個小時,法律嘗試3個小時,偵查程序該要3個小時,實務演練3個小時,他還有去給他演練3個小時。那通過考試,我想考試的內容絕對就是上課的內容了。"},{"start":433.656,"end":451.65,"text":"我想說在實務上面遇到的絕對是超過上課的內容。你用的名詞也好,你用的這些語言也好,也許跟母國都沒有關係。那也許它的知識是侷限在你所上課的內容,可是我在想在實務操作上面絕對遠遠超過這些內容。"},{"start":456.619,"end":472.188,"text":"剛剛委員舉的例子是醫療衛生以醫療衛生來講的話不要講說我們的新住民其實我們的國人如果你沒有受過醫療訓練的話其實很多東西也是沒有辦法了解那也沒有辦法"},{"start":472.828,"end":473.309,"text":"實際上去操作。"},{"start":490.589,"end":518.786,"text":"所以這一些同意人員我們的建議當然就是說你如果是屬於醫療衛生的這一組的話就是固定在這一組因為你這樣才能夠﹖所以副長你是說邊學﹖邊做邊學的意思嗎本來就是這樣因為 因為就是這樣萬一如果說翻譯錯誤的話不可能說把所有的都寫好了還在上證部長可能衛生醫療也許你覺得說可以邊做邊學嗎那我想請教司法同意呢"},{"start":519.847,"end":526.09,"text":"施法同意怎麼辦?為什麼我會取這個例子?"},{"start":526.09,"end":536.515,"text":"我跟各位講一個很真實的一個案例。 在好幾年前有一位來自菲律賓的家庭看護工。"},{"start":537.375,"end":564.633,"text":"她剛來臺灣就被她的僱主猥褻,然後當然她要去投訴嘛,然後仲介公司呢,那個部長請回,好,部長請回,對,徐部長請回。那這個康護工呢就跟這個仲介公司來投訴,後來給他換了一個僱主,可是更糟糕。第二個僱主的居然就性侵了她。"},{"start":566.89,"end":594.509,"text":"這是真實的案例喔!這個菲律賓的家庭看護工當然他最後當然就是報案兩個案子他都報案的後來也走了司法程序可是呢最後判決出來是第一個案那個第一個雇主呢沒事第二個雇主呢這個性侵案也不成立所以這個菲律賓的這個家庭看護工覺得沒有辦法接受"},{"start":595.939,"end":616.295,"text":"這個菲律賓的康護公呢他不會中文也不會英語不是所有的菲律賓的外籍移工都會講英文他只會講菲律賓的泰加洛語那當然判決書他看不懂他拜訴他不知道為什麼他就跟著他的朋友講說在我們的母國"},{"start":617.677,"end":633.972,"text":"近親派者是要被判刑的為什麼台灣不用到後來他找了人家來看了他的這個判決書他非常的崩潰裡面怎麼寫呢說他的說詞前後不一還說他是一個騙子"},{"start":635.773,"end":661.588,"text":"為什麼會前後不一?這跟什麼有關係?通譯的專業度有關係。法務部長可以去看一下,過去曾經有這個案子。他必須到警察局去做筆錄,然後有一個通譯。那他到檢察官證訊的時候,也有一位通譯。那到法院開庭的時候,也有通譯。都有通譯陪伴,可是通譯都不是同一位。"},{"start":663.154,"end":688.45,"text":"通譯都是不是同一位。說實在我們也知道說在司法判決的時候你的證詞有沒有前後一致這很重要那他說他前後都不一致可是這位受害者他說有啊我這個前後都是一致的啊為什麼不一致因為通譯翻的都不一樣通譯翻出來的內容都不一樣所以造成"},{"start":689.471,"end":713.126,"text":"最後呢,他居然是所有兩個案子都不成立,他是一個受害者。這是真實發生的事情。所以,本席覺得同意問題就是人權問題。我覺得到現在為止,臺灣,我們的中央政府好像對這個,同意,覺得就不過是一個翻譯而已。"},{"start":715.575,"end":739.824,"text":"而且我也覺得說這麼多年相同意的問題我們談論了很多很多年可是就是沒有一套就是沒有一個統一的認證制度專業的課程也沒有那我所看到的這個計畫隨隨便便就是就是幾個小時他就必須上場做翻譯了那再來還有讓我很失望的就是這個計畫主責單位竟然是移民署"},{"start":741.684,"end":767.964,"text":"移民署是一個三級的單位為什麼會是在移民署這麼重要的一個專業的這個通益制度居然是落在一個三級機關移民署我想移民署也很無奈沒有人沒有經費所以院長我想這個部分真的是要審慎來做思考真的審慎來做思考教育部的角色在哪裡國發會的角色在哪裡"},{"start":769.838,"end":790.086,"text":"我們現在只是說國教院齒會納入國教院裡面的磁庫那其他的呢?教育部沒有角色嗎?國發會沒有角色嗎?這是一個很重要的問題為什麼從上一屆到現在我會不斷的跟院長跟你討論我們的通譯制度真的真的有很大的困境"},{"start":792.72,"end":815.678,"text":"再來還有我們現在因為移民署叫不動其他的部會所以一樣還是下放到各部會各自辦理一樣下放到縣市政府各自去做辦理這培訓到現在為止還是一樣我們取得的這個資格認證的資格還是不一樣那要怎麼測驗你們各部會自己去認證吧"},{"start":818.113,"end":819.954,"text":"我上次就已經在說了請參考澳洲的這個機構"},{"start":843.356,"end":871.984,"text":"也就是說澳洲的國家犯例跟口譯認證機構。 這個認證機構呢它是在1977年的時候設立的。 那政府呢它這個在NATI成立以前澳洲政府是先輔導民間成立一個專業通譯協會叫AUCIS它來規範這個培訓的課程。 那等到這個AUCIS成熟之後輔導它成熟可以變成一個獨立運作機構之後呢才成立NATI。 現在他們兩個的角色就是說AUCIS它就是一個培訓的機構"},{"start":872.964,"end":900.265,"text":"NATI它就是一個認證的機構所以我在這裡真的要拜託我們行政單位真的要認真看待臺灣的通營制度就是他們這整個過程都非常非常的嚴謹那我們臺灣什麼時候才能夠認真來看待尤其是臺灣的外來人口越來越多的狀況之下再來我們馬上也要引進印度的移工"},{"start":901.994,"end":918.134,"text":"所以這個通譯制度真的 完善制度真的非常非常的重要所以在這裡真的要拜託我們各個單位 話部會來討論一下未來我們臺灣的通譯制度要如何走"},{"start":919.039,"end":934.933,"text":"院長還有一點時間讓你回覆一下我想上次您也提到這一個問題那我們雖然有移民署在做相關的精進不過考慮這個澳洲的制度的可行性的話我們會請一位"},{"start":952.398,"end":952.961,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149608","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149608","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e7383c0ce4a703cce50c4e9dd3195c82d230da91660cc9cbf8ba9b0039caa7a67c45cb4d80bcee6c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"16:14:22 - 16:45:03","影片長度":"00:30:41","會議時間":"2024-03-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-08","duration":1841,"end_time":"2024-03-08T16:45:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-08T16:14:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":559,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（16時14分）主席好、各位官員好，請行政院長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：陳委員午安，恭喜你當選立委，還有祝你婦女節快樂。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝院長。其實院長是我長期以來非常敬佩的醫界前輩、大老。"],["陳院長建仁：不敢當。"],["陳委員菁徽：我也是您美國研究所的學妹。"],["陳院長建仁：對，也是Hopkins的光榮啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：我們今天各自在這樣的位置，我們就希望把我們份內工作做好，理性問政、理性討論。"],["陳院長建仁：好，像在Hopkins時候的討論一樣。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。第一個問題，早上已經聽到非常多委員同事有詢問，臺灣的詐騙已經是指數型成長，所以2023年一整年民眾被詐騙金額高達88億，而且報案件數幾乎直逼4萬件，非常誇張，所以全民要打詐、反詐，並且內政部偕同各部會一同宣傳，這是很重要的，對吧？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我自從來這邊上班後，我很仔細的研究了所有部會的網站，我看到這個宣傳反詐騙的網站，點閱率只有88，它到底都在談些什麼？還有什麼可以進步的空間？等一下我想播放一段影片，讓大家看一下這個網站的內容為何？","我們先從「防詐學堂」按進去，你會發現裡面的影片是空白的，什麼都沒有。再來我又按了第二個連結，是所有防詐影片，「30秒短版影片」，裡面用政府的預算花了很多錢，請非常多名人拍這樣的短影片，但它是一個雲端硬碟，而且我差點就刪除了一個，但我不太敢刪，所以我幫院長把所有檔案都先存起來，因為我怕現在在線上看的人有人誤刪了這個檔案，請問我們行政院的資安是出了什麼問題？"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分我想我們會請……這是衛福部的網站嘛？我們請他們再來好好check，不過……"],["陳委員菁徽：這是內政部提供給各個所有部門的材料……"],["陳院長建仁：對，然後互相連結起來，我想我們再請打詐辦公室好好檢討一下，委員都發現這樣的疏失，我們應該要來改進。但委員剛才提到打詐的成果，我也跟委員做一個簡單報告，你剛才說有4萬通的詐騙，但我們在去年一整年境外竄改電話詐騙的遏止、攔阻量就有1,851萬通電話，然後惡意簡訊就攔阻了801萬則，所以如果沒有這樣的努力，搞不好受騙的人會更多。","另外，我們攔阻詐騙件數有一萬一千多件，攔阻金額就已經到達76億，所以我們打詐是有成果，但當然還要再精進。另外我們也查緝了犯罪集團，這個犯罪集團的一千七百多個犯罪案件，其不法所得我們也扣查了40億，所以我們會繼續努力，謝謝你給我機會來講。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝院長，謝謝，所以感覺現在打詐的進度還有上升的幅度是「趨緩」，最近各部門都喜歡用這個字，所以我覺得趨緩也是一個好的趨勢。","再來，我在這網站繼續看有什麼素材是讓全民可以欣賞、可以學習的，更令人驚訝的是在反詐騙網站的素材裡面，竟然有民眾黨柯文哲主席競選總統時候的所有錄音檔案，怎麼會發生這種奇怪的事情？","（播放影片）"],["陳院長建仁：對，謝謝你告訴我，我想這實在太不應該啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：還有台語版，幾十個檔案我也幫……","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：我跟辦公室同仁一開始聽到這樣子音檔的時候……"],["陳院長建仁：我嚇一跳。"],["陳委員菁徽：你也嚇一跳？我們可以再聽一次。我也嚇一跳，我以為是說這個音檔，現在市面上流傳在電話裡面會詐騙嗎？當時我是這樣想，第一念頭啦！","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：我相信柯文哲的競選錄音檔在上面，應該不是暗指它是正面教材或者是負面教材吧？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這個一定要來好好查，為什麼內政部會有這樣……"],["陳委員菁徽：你們應該也不是指他是打詐高手，或者是他自己是……這些音檔是詐騙集團吧？應該也不是這個意思啦！"],["陳院長建仁：我想大概不會是詐騙的做法，但是對於內政部宣導詐騙的影片資料檔一定要好好地檢討。"],["陳委員菁徽：當然，我走進這個議場時都還親身操作過一次，現在相信很多線上的朋友也發現了。本院很多的委員其實都有經營自己的頻道，也有自己的粉專、社群等等，我們要如何去檢視我們宣傳的政見或是我們的短片等等是不是有跟著人民的方向？其實對一般的民意代表來說，你一直回頭去審視自己上線的這些素材是非常重要的，因為你可以調整你的腳步。但現在看起來，你們花了很多錢拍這些影片，但其實我從第一天上班到現在每天都有看喔！都沒有人去注意到這件事，表示你們宣傳詐騙、宣傳反詐，其實你就把它丟上去，你就再也不管這些影片到底符不符合人民的口味、有沒有人在看嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：我們請部長簡單回答一下。"],["林部長右昌：委員，這個是不是容我們查一下？因為這個看起來怪怪的，柯P的競選廣告在這個上面，不過這個並不是網站，這個看起來應該是一個……"],["陳委員菁徽：這是你給的連結，因為……"],["林部長右昌：這個應該是一個雲……對不起，但是這個……是不是我們看一下，好不好？因為這個連結……"],["陳委員菁徽：你給了反詐、防詐請大家幫忙宣導的公文，發到各級學校、各單位，包括退輔會、小學、大學等等，每個人都很用力地在幫你貼耶！"],["林部長右昌：我們來瞭解一下，好不好？"],["陳委員菁徽：結果點進去是這樣子，當然……"],["林部長右昌：因為這個是……我確認一下再跟委員回報。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我們瞭解以後再給委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。"],["陳院長建仁：我看這個是雲端的問題還是……"],["林部長右昌：對，因為這個看起來怪怪的。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個禮拜大家也在吵數位身分證嘛！我們的資安到底有沒有辦法被嚴格的把關？看起來連行政院的資安，好像數位部長都沒有幫大家做好一些教育訓練。這部分也希望大概一週內可不可以給個書面的解釋，看未來你們應該要如何改善，還有這件事情到底是怎麼發生的。"],["陳院長建仁：好，就如同委員所說的，我們大概一週內一定得要來完整的瞭解，也會請數位部幫忙各個部會檢查，等一下也請委員給我們你剛才的這些……"],["林部長右昌：提供給我們。"],["陳院長建仁：提供這些資料，讓我們……"],["陳委員菁徽：現在大家用手機上去看應該也有，不過我是怕有一些網民已經惡搞，把它刪除了。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["陳委員菁徽：那沒有關係，所以比較有可能的是你們的協力廠商出包，我們當然比較不去懷疑你們內部的人是不是違反了任何的行政中立，但是最終我們來檢討你做宣傳的內容是不是有閱覽、是不是有資安的問題，甚至有牽涉到柯主席的隱私部分，這些都要通盤的檢討。未來也期待你們宣傳這些反詐的素材都可以再後續去追，到底這些素材有沒有發揮它應該要有的效果，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，這是應該要做的，謝謝你的指教，我們請相關部會一定要在一個禮拜內完全瞭解，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝兩位部長。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：接下來，我也希望請院長看這份草案文件，您是否有覺得似曾相識呢？"],["陳院長建仁：確實，因為在我擔任衛生署署長的時候，當時代理孕母的事情，現在的陳昭姿委員就有提出很多的建議，我們也召開了公民共識會議，在公民審議會議之後是有條件的開放，確實當時是有，也有一些法案，但是您可能也瞭解，因為令堂也是我們資深的立委，這個案子實際上在立法院也討論過。"],["陳委員菁徽：有，這份文件的第一行，「為因應不孕夫妻生育需求，保障人權，保護代孕子女、代孕者及委託夫妻之權益，特制定本法。」這段話讓人非常非常地感動，在民國93年，時任陳署長就有這樣子高瞻遠矚的遠見而且先進的進步價值，是非常值得令人讚許的。","再來，我從立法院的圖書館發現，93年前2年，91年賴準總統當選人在當時是賴清德委員的時候，也曾經提出了代理孕母的修法草案，而且當時賴清德委員研究了世界各國的現況，他還分析了因為代孕所產生的法律糾紛遠低於收養的糾紛。","10年、20年、30年就這樣過去了，看一下我們的衛生署，後來變衛福部，開了多少的公聽會、專家學者會議、公民審議會議以及無數的民意調查，接下來第幾屆的立委紛紛推出自己的版本，第10屆不分朝野，藍綠白全部都有提案，包括代理孕母。到第11屆，就是本屆，很奇怪地，3位民進黨委員就把代理孕母的篇章拿掉了。我們開了這麼多的公民會議，還有這麼多的公聽會，但是議而不決，決而不行，說實在的，把這麼多的學者、專家、倡議團體召集在一起，還有各位官員，是消耗極大的社會成本。","我給大家看一下這個，這是我形容的，需要代理孕母個案他們的無間地獄啊！因為這是一個迴轉壽司的火車，永遠轉不出去，從公聽會、學者專家會議，性平會、法規會，部長核定、預告草案、行政院審議，繞不出這個圈子，就這樣30年繞不出這個圈子。對於有代理孕母需求，比如您剛剛提到的陳昭姿委員，在這二、三十年簡直就是一個精神的凌遲啊！","我自己有臨床案例，他流產了14次，他本來算不清楚，我回去看病例加一加有14次，他只好出國找代理孕母生了第一個小孩。他希望有第二個小孩，結果他存錢存了10年，才有辦法再生第二個小孩，所以他現在剛生完第二個小孩回來。我有患者因為先天無月經被我診斷出來，臺大的女學生無子宮，跟陳昭姿委員一樣，自從第一天被診斷出來，他媽媽就告訴他：你絕對不可以把這件事情告訴任何一個你交往的對象，以免對方的家庭反對。因此他現在染上了重度的……"],["陳院長建仁：憂鬱。"],["陳委員菁徽：憂鬱，並且有一些傷害自己身體的行為，我看了也非常地於心不忍。","20年前的陳署長在舉辦完國健署的公民會議報告記者會上表示，公民會議的共識，極具知識性、合理性、可行性，是一個歷史創舉，也為延宕近10年的代理孕母立法問題提供許多重要的參考。當時是延宕10年喔，當時陳署長覺得已經延宕10年，至今已經延宕30年了，當時的歷史創舉，現在也已經有三十幾國通過代理孕母，iPhone都不知道出了幾代，我們還能再等幾個30年？","最近我把所有關於代理孕母的文件全部看完，近期部長發表過，草案已經逐漸成型了，提出版本很可能包含代理孕母，這樣子人民才能有更多的選擇在生育上。兩次很公正的官方民調也發現，支持代理孕母的比例一次是過半，一次是86%，大家都認同說因病或者是身體真的沒有辦法的，應該要有這樣子有人權的法案支持他們。","但是陳院長，為什麼今天要問你？解鈴還需繫鈴人，陳院長你就是那個解鈴人，剛剛看到無間地獄的這個循環裡面，有非常多都在行政院的性平會裡面，但內部的人都知道性平會的共識始終都沒有辦法達成，而且一樣的論點已經爭吵了30年，其實從第一次的論點這樣子爭吵，你就錄影就好啦！因為第二次、第三次、第四次，陳院長你應該也參加很多次會議有在討論代理孕母，所以你知道從你們的會議紀錄看起來，其實這個爭吵是不會停，而且沒有改變立場，也沒有改變論點，所以我希望，您身為性平會的召集人，您是否可以回到您20年前的初衷？"],["陳院長建仁：我想我對代理孕母的態度大家都很清楚，但是一個法案要通過，在早期的時候不瞞您說，確實在大院這邊有些討論的時候，就有一些委員反對。後來在行政院的討論，因為我當時不在院裡面，我不太清楚，但是這一個法案，代理孕母的部分，實際上在人工生殖法的公聽會，最近辦的公聽會裡面，衛福部也表達了很明確的態度，我們是不是給部長簡單的講一下？"],["陳委員菁徽：其實衛福部表明的態度是部長算支持，但次長那天說沒有立場，所以我也還沒有機會問到部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：是沒有既定的立場，因為不管怎麼樣這一個案子會到立法院來討論，縱然如果說行政院的院版沒有把代理孕母放進來的話，到立法院也一定會有委員的版本是有代理孕母，所以避免不了要做討論啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：院長，但它現在卡關，它其實始終出不了行政院，依您在公衛界、醫界的聲望還有您的高度，其實您在性平會當一個召集人調和鼎鼐，至少我們要讓這些苦等代理孕母的人知道，我們國家的方向到底是做還是不做，對吧？我們總不能再讓他們繼續期盼30年、20年，這樣子下去很多人的生殖細胞也已經老化了啊！就算30年後通過，他也沒有機會再使用代理孕母了啊！"],["陳院長建仁：我會來注意這個法案現在進行的進度。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，大家都知道少子化是國安危機，少子化就是一個國家的慢性自我毀滅。少子化就是一個國家的慢性自我毀滅，您認同嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：少子化的原因有很多，一個國家確實是需要維持人口適度的成長……"],["陳委員菁徽：是，人口永續。"],["陳院長建仁：但少子化我們會來繼續改進，這個很重要。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我們來放寬人工生殖法，甚至代理孕母就是人工生殖法的一個延伸，去幫助這些想生而生不出來的人生育。"],["陳院長建仁：對，但是……"],["陳委員菁徽：因為人工生殖法一開始的初衷……"],["陳院長建仁：有點幫助啦！可是對於是少子化的解決，好像真的是……"],["陳委員菁徽：它是其中的一塊拼圖……"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：也是您讓我很感動的一句話，93年您說這是一個保障人權的法案嘛！所以第一次公聽會我有參加，當時次長也說3月中旬、下旬會有第二次公聽會……"],["薛部長瑞元：第二次，對。"],["陳委員菁徽：而且在14個工作天以前會通知大家，我算了一下14個工作天以前其實就是下個禮拜一，請問我們下個禮拜一會收到第二次公聽會的議程內容還有與會的名單嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我回去再確定一下，應該就差不多在這個時候。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們希望下週可以看到下一次公聽會的進度。"],["薛部長瑞元：我要跟委員報告，人工生殖法這次要修正也不是只有處理代理孕母。"],["陳委員菁徽：瞭解、理解。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為有好幾個issue要去處理的。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們期待大家一起努力，為臺灣人口永續而努力。","再來，這一段話描述臺灣的醫療問題，比如分級轉診沒有落實，分工做得不好，醫療人員的勞動條件惡化。跟OECD國家相比，我們醫療支出中，公部門的比例真的相對比較低。基層醫療資源匱乏，偏鄉醫療不均。請問陳院長，你覺得這形容得中肯嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得確實臺灣的社區健康照護網絡，還有需要精進的地方。"],["陳委員菁徽：還有很多空間。"],["陳院長建仁：但是對於OECD的這一個醫療保健支出，公部門的比例是不是偏低，這一個要看我們現在的……需要做盤點啦，因為在上一個會期，我們就對National Health Expenditure有一些討論。"],["陳委員菁徽：瞭解，等一下我會給大家看一下您講的Health Expenditure的數據，剛剛這段話是您2015年競選總統、副總統時所提出的醫療政見。2015年啊！現在已經2023、2024年了，我怎麼還是濃濃的即時感，我看到這段話的時候，我以為在講今天耶！去年我相信大家記憶猶新，「黑十字」，醫護人員已經二十幾年沒有走上街頭了，居然又走上街頭。去年11月，護理師執業人數每一個月不斷地在下降，執業比率只剩58.4%，每一個護理師執業6年就quit不做了。如果大家有機會到急診室看一下急診目前的亂象，那個醫療品質，以及衛福部長自己都說臺灣重症兒童10年後可能要送出國救。我們剛還在討論少子化，我們還希望大家多生一點，結果你跟大家說10年後可能沒有重症的兒科醫師！"],["陳院長建仁：讓你講一下。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，對於兒童的這部分，我們已經有對策，而且行政院也已經核定了。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以這個部分，在最近我們就會把整個的對策announce，對於兒科醫師的保障。至於委員的這一個護理人員執業問題，這是每一年從1月到2月、3月、4月、5月都會下降……"],["陳院長建仁：都會下降。"],["薛部長瑞元：然後6月以後會上升啦！所以這樣會有一點點誤導。"],["陳委員菁徽：說實在的一個護理系的學生……"],["薛部長瑞元：但是今年沒有喔！今年都沒有！"],["陳院長建仁：對，今年沒有往下。"],["陳委員菁徽：一個護理系的學生他做6年，正值年輕力壯，但是他就quit了，大部分的人平均做6年就quit了。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以這個問題有一個很大的因素是在於他要值夜班，他要輪夜班，很多是對身體的影響、對家庭照顧的影響……"],["陳院長建仁：照顧。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以他就quit。"],["陳委員菁徽：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我們也在處理這個問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，所以我們一定要給足他們的補貼。","接下來，我們就談您的2015醫療政見，有哪一些還做得不足的？有講到健保支出只占GDP的3.3%，我當然肯定你們有增加支出，可是很顯然還是不夠，因為我們的健保已經快要破產了，可是總額成長率卻是下降的。我很認同你們剛剛講的Health Expenditure，衛福部很會算CHE、NHE，一被發現醫療支出只占GDP的6.6%，趕快東加西加，加起來就7.5 %……"],["陳院長建仁：不，不，不，這是OECD的規定啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，對，對……care是……要算進來的。"],["陳委員菁徽：昨天部長跟我們衛環委員會的人說，我們的目標是要追上韓國，你還要找一個訪問團去OECD。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：可是韓國現在在暴動耶！"],["薛部長瑞元：韓國暴動是另外一回事啦！"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！那是醫師的問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是我們必須在國際比較的時候要能夠精確。也跟委員報告，即使用占GDP的多少去做評估，也不是很準確。因為我們的GDP成長很大、很快。"],["陳院長建仁：這幾年很好。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：沒關係。"],["薛部長瑞元：GDP我們如果是縮減，它成長的話，當然比例就高起來了。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，但是我們的目標，請不要只跟韓國靠近嘛，我們也要跟其他世界先進國家，至少10到12之間嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：所以最好是自己跟……"],["陳院長建仁：自我來比，長期趨勢嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：所以2015年蔡總統說，跟其他國家比較，我們醫療部分公部門比例真的相對比較低。我們看右邊，這是衛福部自己整理出來的表格，2020年公部門經常性醫療保健支出占經常性醫療支出比，這些數據是你提供的，這些國家也是你選的，其實你也可以再選比我們更差的國家，我只能說很誠實，我們在裡面是倒數第二名耶！所以從2015年到現在，我們公部門的支出到底是相對比較低還是又趨緩了？"],["陳院長建仁：委員我跟你講，這也是我們在上個會期時有很多的討論，因為這個比較是OECD公布的資料，在OECD的資料裡面，你說我們就給它加多一點，不是啦，因為OECD資料裡面，像長照就應該要加進來等等……"],["陳委員菁徽：你的意思是說，這表還沒有加長照？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳院長建仁：對，所以我們還有另外一件事情也很重要，就是公家醫院的設施，或者譬如公家醫院蓋新醫院的支出，也應該算在healthcare的expenditure裡面，所以我們現在正在做最後的一些盤點，盤點完之後再提供給委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，更新的數據。"],["陳院長建仁：對、對、對，這樣比較才合理。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，希望不是從倒數第二變成第三還是第四之類的。","再來，蔡總統2015年安撫我們全國的醫護人員說：健保給各位點值一直在打折，感謝醫護人員守護國人健康所付出的犧牲，未來要檢討健保支付標準表。結果現在是112年，北部最慘，北部是0.7、0.8打八折，打八折是大家的常態耶！"],["薛部長瑞元：那個是浮動點值的部分，因為也有一些是固定點值，所以一般在算的話用平均點值，平均點值大概在零點九多。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，您昨天也收了執政黨林俊憲委員的提案，他也同時提到，您真的應該要再調整浮動點值至少到0.95塊吧！"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，跟委員報告，如果要能夠這樣調整的話，因為點值跟量有關。"],["陳院長建仁：對……"],["薛部長瑞元：我們就是用總額預算制度，所以變成要去修法啦。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，所以我真的很期待，因為你們提到疫情影響等等，未來還是有很多新興傳染病嘛，所以我們要把這些因素考慮進去。"],["薛部長瑞元：這些特殊的狀況我們都有特殊去處理，但是基本上要拉到點值1點1元的話，我們就要有很強的手段去控制它的量，這個對醫界也不一定是好的，因為整個總額就是那麼多錢，也不會從天上再掉下來。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們之後再來慢慢討論我們健保應該要怎麼改革，這是一個很大的議題。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，好。"],["陳院長建仁：對，這個需要很精準的討論。"],["陳委員菁徽：當時2015年的政見二，落實分級醫療及雙向轉診，我們來比較，這也是您提供的表格，106年到112年醫學中心跟基層診所紋風不動，10%、64%，甚至基層診所的、就醫比例還下降！"],["薛部長瑞元：委員選的這2年是在疫情期間。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以因為疫情打亂了你們六大政策的節奏。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：六大政策我讀完了，打亂你們六大政策的節奏。"],["陳院長建仁：現在很多數據，委員你也是Hopkins畢業，你是專家啦，剛好在疫情間的比較，我們在2020、2021、2022，在全世界的比較都會把它當作是一個pandemic period，然後在比較的時候通常會……例如2013的時候會比2019，我想我們……但是數據還是來好好整理。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我期待你們疫情後調整的數據。","第三，當時說要建立一個專業調解機制，由受過訓練的法律及醫療專業者提供公正的意見、縮短醫病認知差距。結果108年出了一個醫療爭議的試辦計畫，第一句是叫我們「當醫療爭議發生時，若病方對醫療過程有疑義，可先與醫療院所溝通」。這不就是一般人每天……不然先跟誰溝通？跟里長嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然這個是現實的狀況，不過跟委員報告，因為貴院也通過一個醫療糾紛……這個法律。"],["陳委員菁徽：有！終於！"],["薛部長瑞元：今年要開始實施。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，2015年的政見終於今年要開始實施了，真的很可惜，我沒有機會檢視這個政見有沒有辦法好好的落實……"],["薛部長瑞元：今年才開始實施，委員的任期剛好就可以檢視。"],["陳委員菁徽：我也期待它可以好好的落實。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員菁徽的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第55號羅委員美玲質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃健豪","沈發惠","柯志恩","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","王育敏","張宏陸","陳菁徽","羅美玲","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":24,"meetingDate":["2024-03-08"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00002","1130601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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其實院長是我長期以來非常敬佩的一屆前輩、大佬。 不敢當。 我也是您美國研究所的學妹。 對。 但是我們今天各自在…… 你說Hopkins的光榮嗎?"},{"start":41.335,"end":51.2,"text":"對。 所以我們今天各自在這樣子的位置,我們就希望把我們分內的工作做好,理性的問政、理性的討論。 好,像Hopkins的時候的討論一樣。 謝謝。"},{"start":54.775,"end":76.804,"text":"第一個問題呢早上已經聽到非常多的委員同事有詢問臺灣的詐騙啊已經是指數型的成長所以2023年一整年民眾被詐騙的金額高達88億而且報案的件數呢幾乎直逼4萬件非常的誇張所以全民要"},{"start":77.244,"end":85.776,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":86.152,"end":108.251,"text":"我是所以呢我自從來這邊上班以後我很仔細的研究我們所有部會的網站我來看到了這個宣傳反詐騙的網站點閱率只有88他到底都在談些什麼還有什麼可以進步的空間呢等一下我想播放一段影片讓大家看一下這個網站的內容為何"},{"start":113.151,"end":124.69,"text":"好,我們先從這個反詐學堂按進去,你會發現裡面的影片是空白的,什麼都沒有。"},{"start":131.311,"end":143.117,"text":"再來我又按了第二個連結是所有防炸影片30秒短版影片裡面用我們政府預算花了很多錢請非常多的名人拍這樣子的短影片"},{"start":148.951,"end":149.731,"text":"請問我們行政院的資安是出了什麼問題?"},{"start":169.772,"end":192.871,"text":"這一個部分的話我想我們會請這是衛福部的網站我們請他們再來好好的check這個是內政部提供給各個所有部門的互相連結起來的材料我想我們這個再請我們打造辦公室來好好檢討一下看委員都發現這樣的疏失的話我們應該要來改進"},{"start":193.872,"end":213.61,"text":"但是委員剛才提到的這個打詐的成果,我也跟委員做一個簡單的報告。就像說我們這個近,你剛才講到有4萬通的詐騙嘛,4萬多的詐騙。但是我們在去年一整年,就是境外篡改的這個電話詐騙的阻止攔阻量就有1851萬通的電話。然後惡意簡訊就攔阻了這個801萬則的簡訊。"},{"start":220.316,"end":220.356,"text":"﹚陳菁徽﹚"},{"start":248.796,"end":276.852,"text":"謝謝院長謝謝感覺現在我們打架的進度還有這個上升的幅度是趨緩趨緩最近各部門都很喜歡用這個字所以我覺得趨緩好也是一個好的趨勢再來我在這個網站呢繼續看有什麼素材是讓我們全民可以欣賞的可以學習的更令人驚訝的是在反詐騙的網站這個素材裡面竟然有"},{"start":282.964,"end":304.555,"text":"民眾黨柯文哲主席競選總統時候的所有錄音檔案怎麼會發生這種奇怪的事情?雞蛋的供給是數學問題出問題是腦袋不好雞蛋的品質是食安問題出問題是政客的良性不足我承諾當選總統將積極輔導升級養雞產業"},{"start":310.162,"end":313.885,"text":"我跟辦公室同仁一開始聽到這樣子的影檔的時候我嚇一跳你也嚇一跳我們可以再聽一次"},{"start":340.629,"end":344.41,"text":"雞蛋的供給是數學問題,出問題是腦袋不好。雞蛋的品質是食安問題,出問題是政客的良心不足。我承諾當選總統將積極輔導升級養雞產業。"},{"start":373.396,"end":385.776,"text":"我作為本年的台北市長,藉由今天570天,民進黨這場議會面對問題,只能開心而已。防疫預算貴重失敗,就夠大行就欠,欠水安,欠疫苗,欠..."},{"start":388.547,"end":409.481,"text":"我相信這個錄音檔柯文哲的競選錄音檔在上面應該不是暗指他是正面教材或者是負面教材吧?我想這個一定要來好好查,為什麼政部為了這樣?那應該也不是指他是打詐高手或者是他自己是這些音檔是詐騙集團吧?應該也不是這個意思啦!"},{"start":410.581,"end":425.686,"text":"我想大概不會是詐騙的做法,但是這一定裡面在內政部的宣導這個詐騙的影片的資料檔一定要好好的檢討。當然我在走進這個議場都還親身操作過一次,現在相信很多線上的朋友也發現了。"},{"start":428.39,"end":453.762,"text":"本院很多的委員其實都有經營自己的頻道也有自己的粉專、社群等等我們要如何去檢視我們宣傳的證件或是我們的短片等等的是不是有跟著人民的方向其實對一般的民意代表來說你一直回頭去審視自己上線的這些素材是非常重要的因為你可以調整你的腳步"},{"start":454.462,"end":455.603,"text":"這個委員是不是請容我們查一下,因為這個看起來怪怪的。"},{"start":485.576,"end":491.781,"text":"這個科批的那個競選廣告在這個上面不過這個並不是網站喔這個看起來應該是一個這是你給的連結因為這個應該是一個雲但是這個對不起"},{"start":503.487,"end":518.761,"text":"你給了反詐防詐請大家幫忙宣導的公文發到這些各級的學校各單位包括退福會小學大學等等每個人都很用力幫你在貼耶我們來瞭解一下好不好結果點進去是這樣子"},{"start":520.854,"end":529.135,"text":"這個禮拜大家也在炒數位身分證嗎?我們的資安到底有沒有辦法被嚴格的把關?看起來連行政院的資安好像數位部長都沒有幫大家做好一些教育訓練。部長沒有,我只是稍微提到而已。"},{"start":549.239,"end":572.953,"text":"所以這部分的話也希望大概一週內看可不可以給個書面的解釋未來你們應該要如何改善還有這件事情到底是怎麼發生的我想就如同委員所說的我們大概一週內一定得要來完整的了解那我們也會請數位部來幫忙我們各個部會來檢查那等一下也請委員給我們"},{"start":575.315,"end":599.316,"text":"現在大家用手機上去看應該也有不過我是怕有一些網民已經惡搞把它刪除了但沒有關係所以呢比較有可能的是你們的協力廠商出包我們當然比較不去懷疑你們內部的人是不是違反了任何行政中立但是最終呢"},{"start":600.117,"end":621.156,"text":"我們來檢討你做宣傳的內容是不是有越覽那是不是有資安的問題甚至有牽涉到這個柯主席的隱私部分這些都要通盤的檢討所以未來也期待你們宣傳這些反詐的素材都可以在後續的去追到底這些素材有沒有發揮他應該要有的效果好嗎"},{"start":621.997,"end":628.83,"text":"這應該要做的,謝謝你的指教,我們一定來請相關的部會一定要在一個禮拜內完全了解。"},{"start":632.093,"end":656.008,"text":"接下來我也希望請院長看這份草案文件您是否有覺得似曾相識呢?確實因為在我擔任衛生署署長的時候呢當時代理孕母的事情我們現在的陳肇志委員就有提出很多的這個建議我們也召開了公民共識會議公民審議會議之後呢是有條件開放確實當時是"},{"start":660.191,"end":660.692,"text":"臨時提案時間"},{"start":675.388,"end":691.501,"text":"這份文件的第一行為因應不孕夫妻生育需求保障人權保護代孕子女代孕者及委託夫妻的權益特制定本法這段話讓人非常非常的感動而且在民國93年"},{"start":693.741,"end":700.676,"text":"實任陳署長就這樣子高瞻遠見而且先進的進步價值是非常值得令人"},{"start":704.471,"end":728.404,"text":"再來我從立法院的圖書館發現9393年前兩年91年賴準總統當選人在當時是賴清德委員的時候也曾經提出了代理育母的修法草案而且當時賴清德委員他研究了世界各國的現況他還分析了"},{"start":729.104,"end":742.585,"text":"﹗"},{"start":742.828,"end":767.127,"text":"衛生署後來編衛福部拍了多少的公聽會專家學者會議公民審議會議以及無數的民意調查接下來呢第幾屆的立委紛紛推出自己的版本第10屆不分朝野藍、綠、白全部都有提案包括代理任務到第11屆就是本屆呢"},{"start":769.175,"end":797.656,"text":"很奇怪的三位民進黨委員就把代理運母的篇章拿掉了我們開了這麼多的公民會議還有這麼多的公聽會但是一而不絕絕而不行說實在的把這麼多的學者專家倡議團體召集在一起還有各位的官員是消耗極大的社會成本我給大家看一下這個"},{"start":799.133,"end":818.607,"text":"這是我形容的需要代理孕母個案他們的無間地獄啊,因為這是一個迴轉壽司的火車,永遠轉不出去,從公聽會、學者專家會、性品會、法規會、部長合定、預告草案、行政院審議,繞不出這個圈子,就這樣30年繞不出這個圈子。"},{"start":819.52,"end":840.161,"text":"對於有代理孕婦需求,比如您剛提到的陳昭芝委員,這二、三十年簡直就是一個精神的臨時啊。 我自己有臨床案例,她流產了14次,她本來算不清楚,我回去看病歷加一加14次,她只好出國找代理孕婦,生了第一個小孩。"},{"start":840.942,"end":850.722,"text":"好,他希望有第二個小孩結果他存錢存了10年才有辦法再生第二個小孩所以他現在剛生完第二個小孩回來"},{"start":851.721,"end":878.137,"text":"我有患者因為先天五月經被我診斷出臺大的女學生吳子工跟陳昭芝委員一樣。自從第一天被診斷出來他媽媽就告訴他你絕對不可以把這件事情告訴任何一個你交往的對象以免對方的家庭反對因此他現在染上了重度的憂鬱並且有一些傷害自己身體的行為我看了也非常的於心不忍"},{"start":879.485,"end":904.778,"text":"二十年前的陳署長在舉辦完國建署的公民會議報告記者會上表示說公民會議的共識極具知識性、合理性、可行性是一個歷史創舉也為延宕近十年的代理業母立法問題提供許多重要的參考。好"},{"start":906.339,"end":924.533,"text":"當時是延宕10年喔,當時陳署長覺得已經延宕10年,至今已經延宕30年了,當時的歷史創舉現在也已經30幾國通過代理運母,iPhone都不知道出了幾代,我想我們還能再等幾個,30年了。"},{"start":927.861,"end":946.398,"text":"最近呢我把所有關於代理育母的文件全部看完。近期部長發表過草案已經逐漸成型了提出版本很可能包含代理育母這樣子人民才能有更多的選擇更多的選擇在生育上兩次很公正"},{"start":947.85,"end":971.685,"text":"官方民調也發現說支持代理孕母的比例一次是過半一次是86%大家都認同說因病或者是身體真的沒有辦法的應該要這樣子有人權的法案支持他們但是啊為什麼陳院長今天要問你解零還需繫零人啊"},{"start":972.822,"end":995.282,"text":"陳院長你就是那個解鈴人剛看到無間地獄的這個循環裡面有非常多都在行政院的性評會裡面但內部的人都知道性評會的共識始終沒有辦法達成而且一樣的論點已經爭吵了30年其實啊從第一次的論點這樣子爭吵"},{"start":996.983,"end":998.985,"text":"您是否可以回到您20年前的初衷?"},{"start":1022.608,"end":1035.756,"text":"我想我對代理運母的態度大家都很清楚但是一個法案要通過在早期的時候不瞞您說確實在大院這邊在有些討論的時候就有一些委員反對後來"},{"start":1038.557,"end":1040.819,"text":"其實衛福部表明的態度是"},{"start":1063.004,"end":1089.913,"text":"雖然支持,但次長那天說沒有立場,所以我也還沒有機會問到比長。是沒有既定的立場,因為不管怎麼樣這一個案子會到立法院來討論。縱然如果說行政院的院本沒有去討論,就是說沒有把代理任務放進來的話,到立法院也一定會有委員的版本是有這一個代理任務,所以避免不了要做討論。"},{"start":1091.374,"end":1115.354,"text":"但院長他現在卡關他其實始終出不了行政院以您的在公衛界醫界的聲望還有您的高度其實您在姓平會當一個召集人調和頂讓至少我們要讓這些苦等代理孕母的人知道說好我們國家的方向到底是做還是不做對吧"},{"start":1115.774,"end":1116.855,"text":"我會來注意這個法案現在進行的進度。 是。"},{"start":1136.59,"end":1146.738,"text":"少子化大家都知道國安危機少子化就是一個國家的慢性自我毀滅少子化就是一個國家的慢性自我毀滅您認同嗎"},{"start":1149.653,"end":1175.607,"text":"少子化的原因有很多一個國家確實是需要維持人口的這個適度的這個成長是人口永續但少子化我們會來繼續改進所以我們來放寬人工生殖法甚至代理孕母就是人工生殖法的一個延伸去幫助這些想生生不出來的人生育對因為人工生殖法一開始的初衷有點幫助了"},{"start":1176.627,"end":1206.087,"text":"可是對於掃紙化的解決好像這個是﹖他是其中的一塊拼圖也是您讓我很感動的一句話9393年您說這是一個保障人權的法案﹖對所以第一次公聽會我有參加當時次長也說3月中旬下旬會有第二次公聽會而且在14個工作天以前會通知大家我算了一下14個工作天以前其實就是下個禮拜一"},{"start":1206.667,"end":1235.394,"text":"下個禮拜一請問我們會收到第二次公聽會的議程內容還有與會的名單嗎?我回去再確定一下,應該就在差不多這個時候。我們希望下週我們可以看到下一次公聽會的進度。我跟委員報告人工生殖法這一次要修正也不是只有處理代理運沫。瞭解、理解。因為有好幾個議題要去處理的。好,我們期待大家一起努力,為臺灣人口永續而努力。"},{"start":1236.674,"end":1262.159,"text":"再來呢這一段話描述臺灣的醫療問題比如分級轉整沒有落實分工做得不好醫療人員的勞動條件惡化OECD國家相比我們醫療支出中公部門的比例真的相對比較低基層醫療資源匱乏偏向醫療不均請問陳院長你覺得這形容的中肯嗎"},{"start":1264.997,"end":1265.338,"text":"還有很多空間。"},{"start":1273.16,"end":1295.311,"text":"但是對於OECD的這個醫療保健支出公部門的比例是不是偏低這一個要看我們現在的需要做盤點因為在上一個會期我們就對那個health expenditure的部分national health expenditure有一些討論等一下我會給大家看一下您講的health expenditure的數據"},{"start":1297.714,"end":1316.128,"text":"剛剛這段話是您2015年競選總統副總統時所提出的醫療證件2015年啊現在已經2023、2024年了我怎麼還是濃濃的即視感我以為我看到這段話的時候我以為在講今天欸"},{"start":1317.645,"end":1331.358,"text":"今天去年我相信大家記憶猶新啊黑十字醫護人員喔已經20幾年沒有走上街頭了居然又走上街頭去年11月護理師職業人數"},{"start":1332.839,"end":1362.041,"text":"每一個月不斷地在下降職業比率只剩58.4%每一個護理師職業6年就quit不做了如果大家有機會到急診室看一下急診目前的亂象那個醫療品質以及衛福部長自己都說臺灣重症兒童10年後可能要送出國舊我們剛還在討論少子化我們還希望大家多聲一點結果你跟大家說10年後可能沒有重症的兒科醫師"},{"start":1363.842,"end":1387.349,"text":"對於兒童這部分我們已經有對策,而且這一個行政院也已經核定了。所以這一個部分在最近我們就會把整個的對策是announce出來,對於兒科醫師的保障。至於委員這一個護理人員之約,這是每一年從1月到2月、3月、4月、5月都會下降,然後6月以後會上升。"},{"start":1389.437,"end":1390.998,"text":"所以這個問題有一個很大的因素是在於他要職業班"},{"start":1409.344,"end":1411.585,"text":"接下來我們就談剛您的醫療2015醫療政見有哪一些還做得不足的有講到說"},{"start":1432.233,"end":1448.302,"text":"建保支出只佔GDP的3.3%我當然肯定你們有增加支出可是很顯然還是不夠因為我們的建保已經快要破產了可是總額成長率卻是下降的"},{"start":1449.042,"end":1475.55,"text":"我很認同你們剛講的Health Expenditure衛福部很會算CHE、MHE一被發現說醫療支出只佔6.6%,GDP 6.6%趕快東加西加加起來就7.5%這是按照OECD的規定昨天部長跟我們衛環委員會的人說我們的目標是要追上韓國嘛你還要找一個訪問團去OECD"},{"start":1477.631,"end":1479.194,"text":"可是韓國現在在暴動欸"},{"start":1481.205,"end":1506.945,"text":"韓國暴動另外一回事,但是我們必須要在這個國際比較的時候要能夠精確。那也跟委員報告,即使用佔GDP的多少去做評估的話,也不是很準確。因為我們的GDP成長很大、很快。這幾年很好。沒關係。GDP我們如果是縮減它成長的話,當然比例就高起來了。"},{"start":1508.626,"end":1513.689,"text":"請不要只跟韓國靠近嘛,我們也要跟其他世界先進公關至少10嘛,10到12之間嘛。"},{"start":1520.711,"end":1538.654,"text":"所以2015年蔡總統說跟其他國家比較我們醫療公部門比例真的相對比較低好我們看右邊這是衛福部自己整理出來的表格2020年公部門經常性醫療支出佔經常性醫療支出比"},{"start":1539.633,"end":1539.853,"text":"所以我們從2015年到現在"},{"start":1553.61,"end":1568.727,"text":"我們公部門的支出到底是還是相對比較低還是又趨緩了?好,委員我跟你講,這也是我們在上個會期的時候有很多的討論,因為這個比較是OECD公部的這個資料。"},{"start":1571.59,"end":1591.975,"text":"那在OECD的資料裡面你說我們就給他加多一點,不是啦,因為OECD的資料裡面像長照就應該要加進來等等。 你意思是說這個表還沒加長照。 對,所以我們還有另外一件事情也很重要,就是說公家醫院的那個設施或者是"},{"start":1593.115,"end":1596.157,"text":"希望不是從倒數第二變成倒數第三還是第四之類的。"},{"start":1616.147,"end":1642.477,"text":"再來呢蔡總統2015年安撫我們全國的醫護人員說健保給各位點值一直在打折我們感謝醫護人員守護國人的健康所付出的犧牲未來我們要檢討健保支付標準表結果現在是2012年北部最慘北部是0.7、0.8打8折打8折是大家的常態"},{"start":1643.797,"end":1665.347,"text":"那個是浮動點值的部分,因為也有一些是固定點值,所以一般來算的話用平均點值,平均點值大概在0.9多。部長您昨天也收了執政黨林俊憲委員的提案,他也同時提到您真的應該要再調整浮動點值至少到1.0.95塊吧?"},{"start":1667.768,"end":1682.637,"text":"沒有,跟委員報告,你如果要能夠這樣調整的話,因為點子是跟量是有關的。我們就是用總額預算制度,所以變成要去修法。我真的很期待,因為你們提到疫情的影響啊等等啊。"},{"start":1683.237,"end":1706.284,"text":"未來還是有很多新型傳染病嗎?所以我們要把這些因素考慮進去。這些特殊的狀況我們都有特殊去做處理,但是基本上要拉到點子1.1元的話,我們就要有很強的手段去控制它的量。這個對醫界也不一定是好的,因為整個總額就是那麼多錢,也不會從天上再掉下來。"},{"start":1706.544,"end":1727.082,"text":"我們之後再來慢慢討論我們健保會健保應該要怎麼改革這是一個很大的議題好當時2015年的政見二落實分級醫療雙向轉診我們來比較這也是您提供的表格106年到112年醫學中心跟基層診所聞風不動10%、64%甚至基層診所的"},{"start":1734.099,"end":1757.113,"text":"還下降欸,就醫比例還下降欸。委員選了這兩年是在疫情的期間欸。所以因為疫情打亂了你們六大政策的節奏。六大政策我也讀完了。打亂你們六大政策的節奏。現在很多數據,委員你是Hopkins BL,你是很專家啦。"},{"start":1758.643,"end":1758.723,"text":"第三﹖"},{"start":1782.932,"end":1810.152,"text":"當時說要建立一個專業調解的機制,由受過訓練的法律及醫療專業者提供公正的意見,縮短醫病認知差距。好,結果呢,108年出了一個醫療爭議事辦計劃。第一句是叫我們醫療爭議發生時若病方對醫療過程有疑議,可先與醫療院所溝通。這不就是我們一般人每天大家亂先跟誰溝通,跟里長嗎?"},{"start":1811.684,"end":1832.471,"text":"當然這個是現實的狀況,不過跟委員報告,因為我們貴院也通過了一個醫療糾紛這個法律,今年要開始實施了。2015年的政見終於今年要開始實施了,真的很可惜我沒有機會檢視這個政見,有沒有辦法好好的落實。"},{"start":1840.038,"end":1840.643,"text":"謝謝陳委員、菁威的質詢。"}]}},{"id":"149607","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149607","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e7383c0ce4a703ccb923439e4dde06c5d230da91660cc9cbf8ba9b0039caa7a67c45cb4d80bcee6c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"15:48:05 - 16:03:52","影片長度":"00:15:47","會議時間":"2024-03-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-08","duration":947,"end_time":"2024-03-08T16:03:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-08T15:48:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":485,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（15時48分）好，謝謝，我請院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：張委員午安，恭喜你當選連任。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝、謝謝。院長你請坐。"],["陳院長建仁：沒關係。"],["張委員宏陸：有幾個問題，我想請問一下文化部部長，我們的國家兒童未來館現在目前進度的落實到底是怎樣？請部長回答。"],["陳院長建仁：國家兒童未來館它的建築設計都已經選出來優勝的團體，我們預計是在114年完成建築設計，工期5年，希望在119年能夠完工，我請部長再跟委員補充。"],["史部長哲：報告委員，委員也有參加我們建築競圖展示的開幕，目前當然是由國內建築師張瑪龍跟日本建築師伊東豐雄的提案能夠獲得優勝，現在在進行相關的基礎設計，已經開始在進行了。"],["張委員宏陸：預計會如期發包嗎？"],["史部長哲：我們以這個作為目標，我們希望不要再拖延，所以我們對這個部分其實是努力在進行的。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道你很努力在進行，但我問你是說會不會如期？"],["史部長哲：會，會如期發包。"],["張委員宏陸：會啦！"],["陳院長建仁：一定要掌握進度。"],["張委員宏陸：其實因為這個是很多不只板橋，我們新北市的人都一直殷殷期盼，如果能夠如期地發包當然是最好的。"],["史部長哲：是。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝啦！謝謝。另外想請問交通部王部長，泰板輕軌社後的支線，現在不知道有沒有突破性的進展或是還是在原地打轉？"],["陳院長建仁：泰板輕軌我請部長來回答。"],["王部長國材：新北市政府有提出可行性報告，但是它認為這一個是後階段，所以它是在那邊留下道岔，讓以後在社後地方可以連接，所以目前它會把這個當作下一階段，現在先把泰板輕軌讓它先過，它現在目前大概以這樣為目標，但是它已經預留了道岔的位置。"],["張委員宏陸：已經預留了道岔的位置，其實表示新北市政府它也是想要做嘛！對不對？那想要做，如果現在它不積極做，就兩個原因，一個應該是錢，一個應該是市長個人的想法而已，我覺得這個其實經費也不多，我上次的質詢，部長跟院長也說如果需要，中央會全力支持嘛！所以我是覺得應該要麻煩部長，我們要跟新北市政府積極溝通，為了地方的發展，要就一次到位嘛！不要兩次施工嘛！對不對？是不是部長能夠跟新北市這邊積極地溝通？要給它承諾，我們如果給它承諾，你不報出來責任都在它呢！不然它現在一直說中央不給錢。"],["陳院長建仁：好像我們已經請市政府考慮納入規劃檢討，這個部分我們請交通部這邊再跟市政府做溝通，我想這個是一個……"],["王部長國材：我們事實上我知道委員已經……我們在每一次審查會都跟它講，那它現在就是說因為泰板輕軌走得比較快，它不想要讓社後這條來影響它的進程，所以目前它是希望說泰板輕軌已經走到這個程度就讓它走，那社後是下一階段，它也沒有說不做，目前是這樣，我們跟它講，已經幾乎每次審查會……"],["張委員宏陸：部長。"],["王部長國材：而且也把張委員的建議、立法院的建議都跟它說了。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，我跟你講啦！選舉已經過了，是一個新的契機，選前新北市政府它要拖，我覺得有它的立場啦！對不對？但為了市民的福祉，我覺得不應該這樣，我覺得你們應該要積極地去做，它講那個理由你不覺得很瞎嗎？對不對？這個行政的程序，我也在行政機關十幾年，重大的決策，如果你真的要全部配合，一個月、兩個月也都可以完成了啊！怎麼可能那個是理由呢？所以我在這邊要請部長要跟院長說，就算它的泰山輕軌，我們也補助那麼多錢，我們補助那麼多錢的情況之下，為了地方的福祉，中央請它一起做，我覺得這個是很有說服力的啊！我覺得大家要來努力啊！好不好？"],["王部長國材：我們已經在努力中，目前大概是這樣，已經把這個意見也都表達，我想說它有留下道岔就是這個可行性還是都放在那個地方，不會一次把它打死，大概是這樣。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講當然是不會一次打死，但有留下這個道岔表示它也想啦！"],["王部長國材：對，就是可以出去。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！它也是想嘛！所以我的意思是說應該儘快，因為對整個新北，對整個我們的板橋然後一直到新莊，這我覺得是很多大家都想要的，我也不認為新北市市長會一味地反對到底啦！中央大家都要給你經費、要給你什麼的情況之下，你要反對到底，他要面對的是很多人，我希望部長要多溝通，給他們一些壓力，好不好？"],["王部長國材：是，他們提出來，我們也是按照我們的審議原則，中央該給多少補助就給多少補助，這沒問題。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。其實也要很感謝院長，我去年一直爭取敬老卡搭臺鐵，部長、院長跟大家的鼎力協助，尤其那時候蘇院長跟我們大家一起來，很感謝！我在上一次的總質詢也有拜託我們的陳院長。院長，看一下現在這個敬老卡搭臺鐵，雖然我們補助各縣市的點數不一樣，但是各縣市單趟次可以坐的點數、金額也完全不一樣，等於全國非常混亂，你看一下屏東是500點、嘉義200點、我們新北是30點。那時候我跟薛部長跟陳院長說，拜託你們去跟各縣市協調看看是不是全國統一規劃？甚至用整年度來算，不用每個月來算，我不知道這個部分協調得如何了？"],["陳院長建仁：因為這個……"],["張委員宏陸：這可以請我們薛部長來回答。"],["陳院長建仁：因為這個敬老卡由地方發放，委員很關心各縣市的老人福利，希望他們能搭乘臺鐵，但是點數的部分確實需要跟地方做協調，協調的情況我請部長說明。"],["張委員宏陸：請部長說明。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，臺鐵的部分大概已經有12個縣市答應……"],["張委員宏陸：沒關係，部長，我知道你不舒服，簡單說就好了，你們有沒有去協調？協調得怎麼樣？這樣就好了。"],["薛部長瑞元：臺鐵的部分有協調，還剩下5個縣市，至於敬老卡的使用是否可以累積，因為這牽涉到每個縣市的財務狀況，所以這部分還沒有共識。"],["張委員宏陸：不不不，部長，我認為這個累積跟年度的部分，跟各縣市的財務狀況是不相干的，因為整年度的預算都編在那裡了，沒有多花一毛錢，只是它不讓你用每個月去算，而是用一整年度去算，沒有多花任何一毛錢，這絕對是沒有的，這只是給市民方便而已。部長，我覺得……"],["薛部長瑞元：因為1個月到的話，剩餘的點數就收回去了。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，收回去是一件事，但絕對沒有多花一毛錢，如果用整年度來算，其實也不見得每個人都用到完。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，每個縣市有自己的考量。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，其實只要一個縣市開始做，其他縣市都要跟啦！講白一點，為了選舉，人家隔壁有的但他沒有，下次還要不要選？對不對？我覺得這其實是從人民的口袋偷錢，你說可以給我那麼多，卻每個月給我這樣，我覺得很奇怪，我還是希望部長可以積極去協調。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，我們儘量看看。"],["張委員宏陸：我還想請問部長一件事，有委員在說很多人囤慢性病的藥，他的資料從哪裡來的？確實有這種事嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：委員是說囤慢性病的藥嗎？"],["張委員宏陸：對，囤慢性病的藥。"],["薛部長瑞元：指的是病人本身還是什麼醫療機構？"],["張委員宏陸：不是有立委這樣講嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，病人本身應該不叫囤藥，因為他是拿著處方箋去拿藥，只是有可能他沒有吃，結果就剩下來，但如果是醫療機構或者藥局的話，我認為不會有這種現象。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我認為不會有啊！所以如果不會有的話，我們應該大聲說沒有這種事情，你不能讓人家……"],["薛部長瑞元：藥師公會也出來澄清了。"],["張委員宏陸：不要說人家給你潑一點墨水、一點什麼，潑久就整塊布變黑了，我覺得不應該這樣，有就要馬上出來說，我覺得是這樣，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，你先回去坐，我看你的喉嚨不好。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["張委員宏陸：最後，前瞻計畫已經8年了，其實我們的目標之一是城鄉的均衡發展，一個很簡單的議題，但很多人在吵財政收支劃分法什麼的。院長，我覺得有一件事情我們可能要來思考，行政區劃法或什麼的我覺得應該要，臺灣已經那麼多年，幾十年來我們就單獨升格變成六都，但整個區域的均衡發展我覺得我們並沒有完全照顧到。","我給院長看一個圖，臺中市跟苗栗的卓蘭，臺中市的電話區碼是04，而卓蘭鎮是在苗栗，卓蘭鎮的區域碼是多少，院長知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我不太清楚。"],["張委員宏陸：應該不清楚啦，我直接跟你說……"],["陳院長建仁：它是04。"],["張委員宏陸：它就是04，整個苗栗是037，你看，整個卓蘭鎮因為受到地形影響，受大湖丘陵……"],["陳院長建仁：二大坪……"],["張委員宏陸：跟這個的影響，他們其實很少去苗栗，他們的生活圈都在臺中，都在東勢、豐原，連電話的區域碼都是臺中的。我們幾十年發展下來，不需要去檢討這個問題嗎？我的生活圈就在這裡，連電話的區碼也在這裡，出入都在這裡了，但我們的行政區劃還是幾十年前的，我一直覺得與其一直吵行政區劃、財政收支劃分法，這個問題要先解決才可以，小到很多村里也是規劃得非常不適宜現在的生活圈，我覺得要從人民的角度來看，我們討論行政區劃要不要檢討。我在這邊要跟……"],["陳院長建仁：內政部曾經有送一些行政區劃法的草案到貴院，但都是逾期沒有審查完畢。現在內政部已經有請專家在進行，我請部長簡單說明一下。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員垂詢。我想有兩個部分，第一個，行政區劃的確是有需要，不過它需要更多的共識，不管是由下而上還是由上而下，這是第一點。大到縣市的行政區劃的調整，小到一個里的調整，其實它背後還會涉及選舉區域的劃分，所以我們會特別地慎重，不過大家也都在討論，我想凝聚共識最重要。謝謝。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，很多人怕去碰這個，就是說會扯到選舉，選舉席次等等的，但如果你從人民的角度來講，我覺得應該要以檢討的角度，你看光是臺中，現在的和平，中橫已經不能通了，它從南投出入耶！這對和平鄉的人來講很不公平啊，我覺得這個問題是值得花時間來檢討的。謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員宏陸的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","報告院會，現在休息10分鐘。","休息（16時4分）","繼續開會（16時14分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃健豪","沈發惠","柯志恩","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","王育敏","張宏陸","陳菁徽","羅美玲","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":24,"meetingDate":["2024-03-08"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00002","1130601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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對不對但為了市民的福祉這個我覺得不應該這樣我覺得我們應該要積極的去做他講那個理由你不覺得很瞎嗎 對不對這個行政的程序我也在行政機關十幾年啊"},{"start":316.317,"end":327.681,"text":"重大的決策如果你真的要全部的配合一個月兩個月也都可以完成了啊怎麼可能那個是理由勒所以我要在這邊我要請部長要跟院長說"},{"start":329.895,"end":352.938,"text":"就算他的泰山輕軌,我們也補助那麼多錢。我們補助那麼多錢的情況之下,為了地方的福祉,中央請他一起做。我覺得這個是很有說服力的啊。我覺得就是大家要來努力啊,好不好部長。我們已經在努力中,目前大概是這樣,已經把這個意見也都表達。"},{"start":354.161,"end":373.191,"text":"那我想說他有留下倒叉就是這個可行性都放在那個地方,不會一次把他打死。當然是不會一次打死,但有留下這個倒叉表示他也想。對,就是可以出去。對嘛,他也是想。 對不對,所以我的意思是說應該盡快的讓這個。"},{"start":377.217,"end":391.786,"text":"對整個新北、對整個我們的板橋,然後一直到新莊,這我覺得是很多大家都想要的。我也不認為這個新北市市長他會一味的反對到底。"},{"start":393.297,"end":393.938,"text":"其實這個也要很感謝院長"},{"start":421.673,"end":449.955,"text":"我去年一直爭取這個敬老卡搭台鐵部長跟院長你們的這個大家的鼎力協助尤其那時候蘇院長跟我們整個這樣大家一起來很感謝那時候我上一次的總諮詢也有拜託我們的陳院長院長你看一下我們現在這個敬老卡搭台鐵各縣市"},{"start":451.277,"end":451.417,"text":"臨時提案"},{"start":470.536,"end":485.907,"text":"新北是30點那時候我們的薛部長跟我們陳院長說我拜託你們要去跟各縣市去協調看是不是全國有統一的規劃然後甚至是"},{"start":487.526,"end":496.172,"text":"因為這個敬老卡是地方發放委員很關心這個各縣市的老人的福利然後希望他能夠來達成高鐵但是那個點數的這個部分確實有需要來跟地方做協調"},{"start":516.007,"end":538.487,"text":"那協調的情況我請部長來說明。請部長說明。跟委員報告齁,那台鐵的這個部分的話,大概已經有12個縣市。等一下,那個部長,我知道你那個,你簡單的說就好了。你講你們有沒有去協調,要協調的怎麼樣,這樣就好了。"},{"start":540.578,"end":543.379,"text":"不不不,部長你聽啦齁"},{"start":568.511,"end":588.842,"text":"我認為這個累積跟用年度的這個我覺得這跟各縣市的財務狀況是不相干的因為整年度的預算都編在那裡了他沒有多花一毛錢只是呢他讓你不要用每個月去算用一整年度去算沒有花到任何多一毛錢這絕對是沒有的"},{"start":590.399,"end":618.152,"text":"這只是給市民的方便而已。部長,我覺得啦...一個月到的話他剩餘的點數就收回去了啦。我跟你講啦,收回去是一件事,但絕對沒有多花一毛錢。那你如果是用整年度來算,其實也不見得每個人都會用到完啦。每一個縣市有他自己的考量啦。部長,其實啦,只要有一個縣市開始做啦。"},{"start":618.911,"end":619.471,"text":"我還想請問部長一件事"},{"start":647.532,"end":666.74,"text":"有委員在說這個很多人在囤慢性病的藥,他的資料從哪裡來的?確實有這種事嗎?委員說的是囤慢性病的藥,是指的是病人本身還是什麼醫療機構?有立委不是有這樣講嗎?"},{"start":668.527,"end":684.257,"text":"沒有,病人本身那個應該不叫做囤藥,因為他還是拿著廚房錢去拿藥的嘛,那只有可能說他沒有吃啦,結果就剩下來。但是如果說醫療機構或者是藥局的話,我認為不會有這種現象。"},{"start":686.078,"end":686.258,"text":"最後啦齁"},{"start":718.346,"end":734.904,"text":"我們前瞻計畫已經也8年了,然後城鄉的軍人發展其實我們是有這個目標。其實一個很簡單的議題,很多人在吵財政收支劃分法什麼的,不過"},{"start":736.499,"end":764.415,"text":"院長我覺得有一件事情我們可能要來思考行政區劃法或什麼的我覺得應該台灣已經那麼多年幾十年來了我們就單獨升格變成六都但其實整個區域均衡的發展我覺得我們並沒有去完全的去照顧到我給院長看一個圖"},{"start":765.796,"end":783.486,"text":"我們臺中市跟苗栗的卓蘭那個院長臺中市的電話的區碼是零四院長卓蘭鎮他是苗栗"},{"start":784.352,"end":813.186,"text":"卓蘭鎮的區域碼是多少?院長知道嗎?我不太清楚。應該不清楚啦,我直接跟你說啦。他是零四。他就是零四啦。那整個苗栗呢,是零三七啦。對不對?你看喔,整個卓蘭鎮他因為受到地形的影響啦,大湖丘陵啦,跟那個的這個影響,他們其實很少去苗栗,他們的生活圈都在台中。"},{"start":814.141,"end":825.636,"text":"都在東勢啊都在豐原連電話的區域嘛都是台中的那我們幾十年的發展下來了我們不需要去檢討這個問題嗎這個我的生活圈就在這裡"},{"start":830.195,"end":843.827,"text":"臨電話的區域碼也在這裏我的出入都在這裏了我們的行政區域化還是在幾十年前的我一直覺得說與其一直在炒行政區域化那個財政收支劃分法"},{"start":844.514,"end":844.534,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":864.758,"end":892.741,"text":"這個內政部在曾經這個行政區劃法的時候曾經有到有送一些草案到貴院來但是都是預期沒有審查完畢那現在內政部也已經有請專家在進行我請部長簡單說明謝謝委員詮詢我想兩個部分第一個是行政區劃的確是有需要不過他需要更多的一個共識不管是由下而上還是由上而下這是第一點"},{"start":893.302,"end":895.383,"text":"我知道啦,很多人怕去碰到這個,就是說會"},{"start":919.249,"end":919.269,"text":"謝謝張委員"}]}},{"id":"149606","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149606","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e7383c0ce4a703ccdbaba0d964752cefd230da91660cc9cbf8ba9b0039caa7a657c9e36ddc0b84515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"15:17:21 - 15:47:57","影片長度":"00:30:36","會議時間":"2024-03-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-08","duration":1836,"end_time":"2024-03-08T15:47:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-08T15:17:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":359,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（15時17分）謝謝韓院長，也謝謝韓院長送的花，也祝福在座的女閣員婦女節快樂。是不是有請我們陳院長？"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：王委員午安，恭喜你當選立委，還有祝你婦女節快樂。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝院長。院長，因為今天是婦女節，剛剛林淑芬委員也有說，他作為一個媽媽，他很關心的是食安問題。我現在擔任衛環委員會的召委，我也很關心食安的問題，事實上禮拜一我們在委員會就針對蘇丹紅事件召開了專案的檢討會議。我要問一下院長，你對現在蘇丹紅事件的掌握有多少？你知不知道現在進口這個含有蘇丹紅辣椒粉的最大進口商是哪一家？"],["陳院長建仁：保欣。"],["王委員育敏：保欣嘛！你認為它是初犯還是累犯？"],["陳院長建仁：保欣以前好像曾經也輸入過一些不合格的辣椒粉。"],["王委員育敏：本席現在就要揭發，這個保欣是累犯，也是慣犯，它產生的問題是什麼呢？有一家跟它登記在同一個地址的公司叫做珮鈞有限公司，這兩家通通登記在同一個地址，而且這兩家有一個共通性是什麼？珮鈞在2018年的2月份就曾經被驗出它進口的辣椒粉含有蘇丹紅色素4號，當時驗出來的是4號，所以這一家珮鈞已經有案例在先。另外，在2019年10月它的黑胡椒原粒也是有不得驗出的農藥，所以這一家珮鈞有案在先，然後他們兩家公司同時還在2018年走私蒜頭，也被抓到了，法院其實有判緩刑。所以你可以看到這一次的保欣和珮鈞，他們其實有共同的關係，都在同一家，我要求你們要再去查。剛剛我們看到高雄的是同一個家族、同一個企業登記在同一個地址，而現在看到的保欣和珮鈞又是在同一個地址，而且他們是之前就已經有不良紀錄了，這個部分，院長你們有掌握嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這個我想我們一定認真的再去清查。"],["王委員育敏：好，本席要求立刻去清查。而從當中我看到了一個問題，就是這一次含有蘇丹紅的辣椒粉進到臺灣來，為什麼這次的風暴這麼嚴重？是因為我們在前端缺乏了預警。你看2018年就有這樣一個事件，而我要問的是，當時2018年發現後，經濟部有沒有針對這樣的廠商再進一步地去監控它後續進口的食品有沒有問題？既然在法院有這樣一個紀錄，有沒有回饋給食藥署、有沒有到衛福部來？我覺得我們現在為什麼會產生這樣一個食安風暴，是因為我們自己沒有預警的措施，如果當時針對發生事件的珮鈞和保欣就已經有所警覺，把他們列為高風險、列為應該要仔細去查核的對象的話，我覺得不會放任他們今天坐大，變成是全國最大的辣椒粉進口商，而且進口的量這麼大，一直到去年12月整個攔下來，百分之百逐批，才真的攔下來，但是院長知道嗎？根據食藥署現在自己所查獲的，現在是往前推半年而已，光是63批就查出了18批的不合格品，這樣的不合格率將近三成，而你知道去年一整年我們從中國大陸進口了多少辣椒粉嗎？超過200萬公斤啊！高達212萬公斤。如果你用這樣一個不合格比率推算回去的話，這個數字很驚人，可能有疑慮的辣椒粉會超過60萬公斤，而它現在已經在我們的市場上面。食藥署花了這麼大的人力，到目前為止一個月了，查到多少？才查到12萬公斤。這個問題真的是非常的嚴重！所以院長，你認為怎麼樣可以有效、更快速的讓這樣的風暴落幕，儘快的把這些未爆彈再找出來？到目前為止，食藥署今天早上開記者會時有說，他們覺得還有未爆彈，他們的推估是正確的，如果以現在找出來的不合格率是這麼高的話，去年上半年進來的這些，裡面很多都是漏網之魚。院長，怎麼辦？要怎麼處理？"],["陳院長建仁：對於這個已經發生的事情，當然要繼續認真地去追查；至於未來，其實我們已經有請衛福部提出一個未來精進的計畫，任何廠商只要被檢驗出有大家關切的不合格化學藥品的時候，除了逐批檢查以外，也要馬上禁止它進口。但是你剛才提到的新的事證是說有很多都登記在同一個住址的公司，未來在盤點的過程當中，應該把所有同一個住址的公司的所有進口產品要更完整的來做逐批的檢查。我想這一件事情，對於這些違法進口的廠商，我們真的要加強監控，不再只是監控它進口的產品，而是要整個，因為它會轉來轉去、輪來輪去，這確實是一個我們應該再繼續精進、加強的地方，謝謝委員提供這寶貴的意見。"],["王委員育敏：好，院長，我要點出一個問題就是，你們現在有一件事情是行政院應該做而沒有做好的，從蘇丹紅事件爆發到現在，風暴已經超過一個月了，但是到目前為止，是不是行政院都沒有成立任何一個跨部會的小組，每週盯進度、每週好好的跨部會大家橫向的聯繫來追蹤進度？以我剛剛講的例子，今天食藥署發現的任何事情，如果你有一個跨部會的小組，法務部就應該動起來啊！法務部就應該要立刻去追查！剛剛林淑芬委員還提到這個事件，是我們在衛環委員會裡面開會，他揭發出來的，但是法務部什麼時候才查？什麼時候才動起來？法務部是今天吧？是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：不，是之前。"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員報告一下，相關的地檢署早就已經分案在偵查，而且還聲請法院羈押獲准，有押了兩個人，包括新北地檢署、雲林地檢署，還有高雄地檢署，有三個地檢署在高檢署的指揮統合之下，都全部動起來了。"],["王委員育敏：我問的是什麼時候才動起來？"],["蔡部長清祥：很早就動起來，所以才有聲押獲准，還有交保。"],["王委員育敏：高雄是什麼時候？"],["蔡部長清祥：高雄比較晚。"],["王委員育敏：對啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：但是最早雲林，還有新北……"],["王委員育敏：你們是立法委員揭發之後才跟進嘛！我今天要講的是，爆發這麼大規模的食安危機，為什麼到現在行政院竟然還沒有組成跨部會的指揮小組？是不是現在立刻組組起來？可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們的食安辦實際上都一直在掌握相關食安的問題。這一件事情因為剛才有很多的事證發現，確實是不法廠商有很嚴密的違法情況，中央會成立一個小組來統籌。"],["王委員育敏：院長，我要求你立刻成立一個小組，而這個層級不能太低，至少是由副院長……"],["陳院長建仁：或者秘書長。"],["王委員育敏：我想副院長也很有能力，可以來指揮各部會把這個案子儘速查清。我剛剛講過，從這個數字可知還有很多在市面上流竄，所以要在最快的時間之內落幕就必須要強而有力的指揮，讓各部會真正動起來，這件事情才有辦法處理跟解決，不是靠立法委員舉報一個、你們辦一個，舉報一個、辦一個……"],["陳院長建仁：當然。"],["王委員育敏：這樣就叫做被動跟消極。我相信如果整個行政院願意立刻動起來，蘇丹紅事件的風暴可以在最快的時間落幕；如果沒有這樣做，再查1個月還是查不完，為什麼？因為這個數字真的很龐大！"],["陳院長建仁：行政院會組一個跨部會的小組馬上來做。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝院長承諾你們來組這樣的小組。我接下來就要問各部會了，食安會報裡面大家都是有責任的，但是到目前為止我看到衛福部部長最辛苦，還戴著口罩，在委員會裡面所有的事情好像都他們一肩挑，然後整個就是食藥署來做。但是這件事情太龐雜了，以下我要就教幾位部長們，在食安風暴當中你們到底在做什麼？我先請教教育部部長，這件事情涉及到學童營養午餐的問題，結果我們發現第一時間爆出來之後，教育部都沒有聲音，也都沒有在管學童的營養午餐，然後是各縣市政府教育局或者教育處自己先跳出來，說為了學童的安全，所以他們來禁止，是教育局跟教育處先跳出來，而且到昨天如果不是本席在委員會要部長趕快行文給教育部，要求全國採一致的標準，你還是讓他們各行其是。昨天第一時間就發現有些縣市說：「哎呀！我們的縣市都沒有問題產品，所以可以不用禁止。」顯見很多縣市沒有跟進、誤判，結果後來發現不對，為什麼食藥署繼續公布了？於是急轉彎，一急轉彎就說：「不只學校要禁，長照機構也要禁，相關的醫療機構也要禁。」目前為止，我看到的是，每一個縣市禁止的品項跟單位都是不一致的。教育部部長為什麼在第一時間什麼事情都沒有做？在這件事情也太消極了吧！學童的食安你不用把關嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：因為衛福部食藥署當時有將檢查出不合格的這些項次公布在食藥署的專區裡面，這部分教育部也透過食材平臺讓學校能夠隨時注意到到底哪些品項要處理。雖然當時並沒有到這麼全面，是希望學校在開菜單的時候，一定要留意已經公布為違規的這些廠商所使用的食材，這是在第一階段……"],["王委員育敏：那你們就是慢半拍啊！為什麼地方政府跑得比你們快？昨天第一時間就十幾個縣市政府宣布了，為什麼？因為他們看到衛福部說市場上還有未爆彈，他們也不敢保證，那你們速度為什麼這麼慢呢？那我就問你，本席昨天在社環委員會提出臨時提案，要求要全國一致，昨天晚上9點衛福部把公文給教育部了，你今天批了沒？有沒有要求全國要一致？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，因為昨天衛福部薛部長有提到可能查緝的時間還要將近1個月，這個時間教育部在昨天已經發函給所有縣市跟學校。"],["王委員育敏：你有第一時間發函？"],["潘部長文忠：是，昨天就發了。"],["王委員育敏：我希望教育部守護學童的食安要動起來，不要這麼的被動。我目前看到都是地方政府跑在前面，中央級的部長不可以這樣子，你應該是要做一個定調跟領導，而不是讓地方政府跑在前面。另外我再問你，在品項部分，你現在要禁哪些品項？現在每個縣市都還不一樣，有的禁辣椒粉，有的禁辣椒粉跟……"],["薛部長瑞元：咖哩粉。"],["王委員育敏：跟咖哩粉。"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，在項次部分就針對這兩大項，即辣椒粉跟咖哩粉，我們在昨天的公文裡就是這兩項。"],["王委員育敏：同意這兩項？"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["王委員育敏：現在有的縣市還跑出來白胡椒粉，因為昨天也發現污染，那到底要怎麼做？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個項次的部分，我們還是要跟衛福部這邊做個確認。"],["王委員育敏：好，我要求你去研議，不要整個臺灣變成是多制，然後大家的步調不一。其實食安應該是一致的標準，這是一個重大食安事件，我要求教育部要這樣做。好，你請回。","請問法務部部長，你說你們主動偵辦了，那剛剛本席講的這一個，你要去查嗎？同一個地址，另外那家廠商，要去查嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：他如果有涉及犯罪，檢察官一定會主動來查。"],["王委員育敏：他之前已經涉及了，你認為有可疑，也應該主動去偵辦啊！你們偵辦不可以太被動，不能靠立法委員辦案吧！"],["蔡部長清祥：不會，我們都會跟地方的食品檢驗局相關人員保持密切聯繫，我們有一個聯繫平臺，隨時都可以保持資料的交流……"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望這件事情法務部要有主動性，而且要硬起來，針對這一些甚至敢去竄改報告的廠商，絕對是要重罰，好不好？"],["蔡部長清祥：好。"],["王委員育敏：接下來我要請經濟部。經濟部轄下有這麼多的食品廠，這一次爆發這麼大的事件，請問經濟部部長，在這一次食安風暴當中，你做了什麼？"],["王部長美花：因為這一次是進口的問題，不是國內，國內的部分，目前是沒有發現有任何問題。至於進口商是不是要自主檢查等等，衛福部食藥署這邊有請進口商要去檢驗等等作為。在過往，如果有發生這個問題，比如說通路商好了，通路商這邊，衛福部如果需要通路商的配合，我們經濟部會協助去跟通路商，包括超商、超市等等……"],["王委員育敏：我希望經濟部要積極一點，到昨天委員會討論的時候，還有一些購物平臺，就是他們自己跟上游買來再加工的這些業者，他自己也成立網購平臺，他們的商品還繼續在賣，並沒有下架，如果所有事情通通要由衛福部一個單位來承擔，這個事件會辦得非常緩慢，這些業者本來就是歸經濟部管，你們可以去要求啊！我覺得這個部分經濟部也沒有動起來，你們應該主動協助衛福部，而不是被動的等著說：你有什麼需要跟我講，我再來協助。昨天在這個委員會就有委員要求要去查這些廠商，結果我們部長說他不是經濟部，如果每一個子公司都要去查的話，他就變成是經濟部了，那就代表經濟部作為主管機關，你們也要動起來，這部分部長是不是可以承諾，趕快加進來這個查驗的行列？"],["王部長美花：需要我們協助的，我們一定會來做。"],["王委員育敏：另外一個，2013年曾經發生毒澱粉事件，部長長期都在經濟部，我相信你應該知道，當時的毒澱粉事件，為了儘快讓消費者可以安心，讓他們知道哪一些品項廠商有自主去驗，然後他的產品是沒有問題的，當時就做了一件事情，就是要求這些有使用到澱粉產品的，不管是珍珠奶茶、肉圓，一個是自己要去要求上游供應商給你一個保證證明他的澱粉沒有問題，然後他就可以貼出這個公告說本店不使用含有順丁烯二酸的澱粉，這個的好處是什麼？一個就是你讓這一些廠商也動起來自己自清嘛！就是說我這個東西是沒有問題的。另外一個就是讓他把這個壓力往上，你要供應原料給我，你要出具一個安全的證明啊！如果我們有這樣的層層把關，那我們食安的漏洞就可以補起來。當時那個措施後來就是有止血，因為它還加上了行政手段，就是你今天貼出自清之後，就要代表說你這個是沒有問題的，而且後端市場繼續查，就是還是持續抽驗，如果抽驗到你貼公告，但你這個產品還是有問題，那就開罰。這就是一個更快速的引進經濟部這邊的力量，然後讓這整個風暴可以儘快的度過。因為昨天部長也說我們有八成的辣椒是來自中國大陸，又不可能完全叫大家不使用辣椒的產品，市面上那麼多的麻辣鍋、加辣的產品，你不可能要求廠商都不要使用，但在這段風暴當中，如果你要使用，那你就要告訴消費者說你的是安全的，而且真的是檢驗安全的，可以去做嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，這我們已經開始動起來了、已經在做了，我們除了藉由這一個所謂非登不可的系統，告訴這些廠商之外，接下來下一步我們會找相關的公協會，再度去重申自主檢驗的必要性。"],["王委員育敏：我問一下院長，你贊不贊成本席今天所建議的這一個措施一定也要同步去做？因為現在整個查緝是由上而下，發現到哪裡查到哪裡，那我們現在是可以由下而上。"],["陳院長建仁：bottom up。"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["陳院長建仁：我是覺得top down及bottom up這兩個都是必要的，未來才能夠很完整的進行這整個問題的查驗，還有確保它的安全性，才能夠更有效果。"],["王委員育敏：所以院長你也贊成嘛！那我就要求你今天所承諾的這一個專案小組要好好去督導，而且要落實，因為這一次蘇丹紅的事件，我覺得讓很多的家長不安心，國人也不安心，現在只要看到紅色的東西都會覺得心裡怕怕的，而現在最新的是不只紅色的東西，白胡椒粉、青辣椒粉他也加，真的是已經沒有辦法分辨了，本來是以為有加紅辣椒或者是咖哩的避一下，結果如果連白胡椒現在也發現有人還這樣子惡意添加的話，那會讓大家很擔心。"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分的話，我們會再確認。"],["王委員育敏：還要再確認是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["王委員育敏：那就儘快確認，讓國人的擔心……"],["陳院長建仁：有，正在進行了。"],["薛部長瑞元：今天已經在抽……"],["王委員育敏：正在進行當中？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望這個食安風暴可以儘快落幕，這一些惡意的業者就應該要予以重懲。","接下來本席要關心的是再生能源和環境永續的問題，我們可以看到，經濟部希望再生能源的發電量目標比是20%嘛！部長。"],["王部長美花：就是到2025年，原則上是2026年的時候達到20%。"],["王委員育敏：又再延一年啦！好，但是你現在是9.9對不對？"],["王部長美花：9.5，去年底的時候。"],["王委員育敏：那你的光電呢？你的光電現在缺口是多少？"],["王部長美花：光電目前是超過12 GW。"],["王委員育敏：所以你還缺多少？你的目標是20 GW嘛！"],["王部長美花：對，還有8 GW要追。"],["王委員育敏：那我這邊還低估了，如果我這邊低估了，我現在講2.15 GW，大概是還要再210座大巨蛋這麼大的面積，如果是8 GW的話，那還要再乘以三倍，那可能是超過500座大巨蛋這麼大的面積。現在我就要讓院長來看一下，本席不反對太陽能光電，但是如果你們光電的發展已經影響到了我們的生態跟永續，那這個就叫做本末倒置。","我們來看一下現在出現的這一些亂象：第一個，我們原本漁電共生，其實是以農業為主，但結果我們現在的漁電共生、魚塭種電，我們現在漁電共生公告的面積占比，占養殖面積通通都是七、八成了，這麼大的一個比例有可能嗎？院長，你有看到這個問題嗎？如果是以養殖為主，結果你們現在公告出來的面積都是將近七、八成，這樣還養得成嗎？而且過去還發生文蛤暴斃，根本也沒有辦法。我過去在地方政府服務的時候，也發現他們反映現在養殖的漁獲越來越少，這是不是因為我們魚塭種電，然後有些農民、漁民可能就沒有要做了？因為這個價格比較好，所以讓那個量產也下降，連虱目魚都變貴了，院長，你知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想……"],["王部長美花：應該不是委員講的這樣……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王部長美花：所以委員講八成，這個分母指的是什麼？我再跟委員釐清。但是譬如說在嘉義、臺南的漁電共生其實從去年開始有收穫之後，收穫的情形非常好，我也非常樂意帶委員去看那個漁電共生。而且有太陽光電之後，它其實可以防寒或者汰熱，所以反而養殖的生存率比過往的露天要好。現在嘉義的部分，其實好的案場一個、一個在出來。"],["陳院長建仁：我們農業部在這邊也有同樣的……"],["王委員育敏：好，來，部長，你說。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，第一個就是我們漁電共生的部分分為兩個，一個是屋頂型的，一個是露天型的。屋頂型的就誠如剛才經濟部部長講的，它裡面特別是有一些白蝦它的產量甚至於會比較高。另外，陸地型的部分，基本上它的漁電光電板都是在岸邊去做，然後部分的遮蔭會讓魚本身更好，所以整個產量基本上是維持的。"],["王委員育敏：好，所以你們的說法就是都沒有問題……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們還是……"],["王委員育敏：那是公民團體的誤解了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我要跟委員說明，在剛開始的第1年的時候可能漁民本身在養殖的時候沒有做調整，現在這些養殖的調整技術已經到位了以後，包括您剛才講的虱目魚本身那個產量，那是因為溫度的關係，不是因為漁電共生的關係，這個部分我想我們都有相關的資訊。"],["王委員育敏：好，本席要求你們提供具體的數據……"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["王委員育敏：因為你們的說法跟這些長期關心的公民團體他們的看法其實落差非常地大。"],["王部長美花：我跟委員報告，其實我們最近有邀請公民團體來瞭解，他們看了以後也看到現在正面的價值有出來，而且好好養的話，確實對當地的農民……"],["陳院長建仁：有幫助。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是有幫助的。"],["王部長美花：就業也好、收穫也好是有幫助的。"],["王委員育敏：好，那你們就提供具體的數字給本席。另外一個，砍樹種電，這個過去其實有很多團體關心，本席是看了覺得非常地心痛，就是說，以我們現在追求環境永續，樹木對我們人類非常地重要，但是我們現在為了追求光電的鋪設率，不惜砍樹種電，這是對的嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想……"],["王委員育敏：院長，你作為一個有高度的院長，又是科學家，你認為我們臺灣應該是要這樣子去發展嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有砍樹種電，但是對一些林相不好的、地力不佳的土地，我們才會用來作為光電發電的場地。"],["王委員育敏：林相不好跟地力不佳如何定義？有一個很嚴謹的定義嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們來跟委員說明一下。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，現在目前平地造林大概是一萬三千多公頃，這一萬三千多公頃大概分為3類：第一類就是它已經具有生態價值的，這個部分我們絕對不會去動它，反而會去加碼維護生態；第二個部分是它的林相是可以繼續成材的，20年可能那個樹木還不夠大，如果它繼續再10年的時候，我們也會給他獎勵；第三個才是林相不佳的部分，林相不佳的部分未來會恢復農業生產之用。所以到目前為止我們針對主要林相的部分，我們都不會去動它，只有少部分是針對土壤本身，因為它林相不佳就是土壤本身的地力是不好的，地力不好牽涉到比較沿海這些比較高鹽分的地方，高鹽分的部分我們都有它的標準，所以我們……"],["王委員育敏：那本席秀出來這一張圖，這個是林相不佳嗎？"],["王部長美花：這個要去看實際的情形，我猜很多之前台糖的地因為當時WTO的關係，那個地不好，然後去種林，又沒有好好種，那個樹木其實都長不大，所以那些地也沒有辦法做很好的利用。"],["王委員育敏：院長，我想要提出來的就是我們不能本末倒置……"],["陳院長建仁：對，我完全同意。"],["王委員育敏：我說過我沒有反對光電，綠能也很好，但是如果你是因為達不到原來設定的目標……"],["陳院長建仁：不會啦。"],["王委員育敏：而因此毀棄了一些原則，然後讓我們的生態也遭到破壞，這個我反對。接下來，你再看一張，我覺得這是一個很荒謬的照片，這是我到嘉義看到的情況，請問院長，站在光電板上面的這個是什麼？你看得出來嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：應該是鳥類吧！"],["王委員育敏：對，我們如果發展到如此這般的程度，要去鳥類的棲地，我們還要布滿了光電板，本來牠可以自由自在在那邊，牠可以抓魚、牠可以棲息，但是為了追求我們的光電整個目標，所以湖上面可以鋪設這些光電板，不考慮原來這邊有沒有鳥類，這就是我看到的一個荒謬的現象，這個真的應該繼續存在嗎？在嘉義這一些鳥類其實是非常珍貴的資源，而我們人類卻用這樣的方式去破壞了牠原來的棲地，這樣真的是合理、是正常的情況嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，這一張照片我是沒有看過，但是在其他的案例當中，我們反而看到實際上當我們開始在做光電相關發展的時候，有一些地方的棲地反而鳥類越來越多，所以我是覺得以單一的照片來看，我需要瞭解……"],["王委員育敏：這個也是……"],["王部長美花：我跟委員報告，我有去看過很多案場，它會有這麼多鳥其實是旁邊也有棲地，有的時候就會飛到光電板上面，所以有的人說……"],["王委員育敏：那是牠原來的棲地……"],["王部長美花：沒有，原來的棲地還在……"],["王委員育敏：部長，容我糾正你，那個就是牠原來的棲地……"],["王部長美花：是，但是因為旁邊還有棲地。"],["王委員育敏：是因為我們不夠要去開發，所以連這樣的地方我們都不放過，連這樣一個原來很漂亮的湖，我們都必須在上面鋪滿了光電板。本席最後時間有限，我只是要提醒院長，就是我們環境的永續跟綠能的發展應該要取得一個平衡而不是失衡，如果有一些的面向，我們已經去侵襲到原來鳥類的棲地，有一些我們該保留的林地也因為必須鋪設光電板而進行砍伐，這必須要有一個糾正的機制，要有一個監督的機制，而現在我看不到行政院裡面有任何一個部門來擔任這樣的角色，大家都爭著在鋪設光電板，沒有人喊煞車，沒有人出來糾正，所以我希望我們的環境部要硬起來，未來對這一些環評的部分，有一些是大面積的，應該要讓環境部來擔任這樣的角色。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們農業部一定會去堅持我們農業，我們有生態檢核的機制……"],["王委員育敏：好，不能破壞生態，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["主席：謝謝王委員育敏的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第53位張委員宏陸質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃健豪","沈發惠","柯志恩","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","王育敏","張宏陸","陳菁徽","羅美玲","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":24,"meetingDate":["2024-03-08"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00002","1130601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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"start":1776.98534375,"end":1779.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1781.47409375,"end":1827.1547187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1790.08034375,"end":1790.2490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1812.9122187500002,"end":1814.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1819.03784375,"end":1820.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1826.6653437500001,"end":1828.6397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1835.33909375,"end":1836.2672187500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.535,"end":17.463,"text":"謝謝韓院長,也謝謝韓院長送的花,也祝福在座的女閣員、婦女節快樂。那我們是不是有請我們陳院長。再請陳院長,請。王委員午安,恭喜你當選立委,還有祝你婦女節快樂。謝謝院長。"},{"start":29.648,"end":47.982,"text":"院長因為今天是婦女節剛剛林淑芬委員也有說她作為一個媽媽她很關心的是食安問題那我現在擔任外環委員會的召委我也很關心這個食安的問題事實上禮拜一我們在委員會就針對蘇丹紅事件我們其實召開了這個專案的檢討會議"},{"start":51.084,"end":76.599,"text":"那我要問一下這個院長,你對現在蘇丹紅事件的掌握有多少?你知不知道現在進口這個含有蘇丹紅辣椒粉最大的進口商是哪一家?那個寶鑫寶鑫嗎?你認為他是出販還是壘販?寶鑫以前好像曾經也有輸入過一些不合格的這個"},{"start":79.401,"end":97.496,"text":"我們來看一下本席現在就要揭發這個保新他是累犯也是慣犯那他產生的問題是什麼呢有一家跟他登記在同一個地址的公司叫做配軍有限公司"},{"start":98.757,"end":106.602,"text":"這兩家通通登記在同一個地址,而且這兩家有一個共通性是什麼?"},{"start":106.602,"end":116.849,"text":"這個配軍他在2018年的2月份就曾經被驗出他進口的辣椒粉含有蘇丹紅色素4號,當時驗出來的是4號。"},{"start":120.151,"end":140.206,"text":"所以這一家配軍已經有案例在先。另外一個在2019年10月他的黑胡椒原理也是有不得驗出的農藥。所以這一家配軍有案在先。然後他們兩家公司同時還在2018年走私賺頭。"},{"start":141.684,"end":141.844,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":158.62,"end":177.708,"text":"剛剛我們看到高雄的是同一個家族,同一個企業,登記在同一個地址,而現在看到的寶新跟佩君又是在同一個地址,而且他們是之前就已經有犯案記錄了,之前就有不良記錄了,這個院長你們有掌握嗎?"},{"start":177.708,"end":180.169,"text":"這個我想我們一定認真的再去清查。"},{"start":181.465,"end":181.825,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":199.745,"end":224.625,"text":"你看2018年就有這樣的一個事件那我要問的是當時2018年發現了有沒有針對這樣的廠商經濟部有沒有針對這樣的廠商再進一步的去監控他後續進口的食品有沒有問題這樣的一個記錄在這個法院有判刑有這樣的一個記錄有沒有回饋給食藥署有沒有到我們的衛福部來"},{"start":225.586,"end":255.246,"text":"我覺得我們現在為什麼會產生這樣的一個時安風暴是我們自己沒有預警的措施如果當時針對發生事件的這個配軍跟保新就已經有所警覺列為高風險列為應該要仔細去查核的對象的話我覺得不會放任他今天做大變成是全國最大的這個辣椒粉的進口商而且進口的量這麼的大"},{"start":256.587,"end":282.06,"text":"一直到去年的12月整個攔下來百分之百逐批才真的攔下來但是院長知道嗎根據食藥署現在自己所查獲的63批的他現在是往前推半年而已63批光是63批就查出了18批的不合格品這樣的一個不合格率將近三成"},{"start":283.373,"end":302.202,"text":"而去年一整年我們進口多少從中國大陸進口多少辣椒粉你知道嗎高達超過200公斤212公斤如果你用這樣的一個不合格比率回去推算的話這個數字很驚人他是超過60萬公斤"},{"start":304.053,"end":323.968,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":324.537,"end":352.563,"text":"你認為這個問題要怎麼樣可以有效就是更快速的讓這樣的一個風暴可以落幕盡快的把這一些未報彈再找出來到目前為止食藥署今天早上開記者會他們還是覺得還有未報彈他們的推估是正確的如果以他們現在找出來這不合格率這麼高的話那去年去年的上半年進來的這一些裡面很多都是漏網之魚啊"},{"start":353.303,"end":354.545,"text":"那怎麼辦?怎麼處理?"},{"start":354.545,"end":365.74,"text":"院長,來你說。在對於這個已經發生的這些事情當然再要繼續的認真的去追查。未來齁,其實我們已經有請衛福部提出一個未來經濟的計畫。"},{"start":366.997,"end":394.27,"text":"只要任何廠商他只要檢驗出來有不合格的這一個大家關切的這個化學藥品的時候就馬上這一個足比檢查以外就馬上禁止他來進口但是你剛才提到的新的事證是說有很多都登記在同一個柱子的這些公司未來在盤點的過程當中應該把所有的同一個柱子的這一個公司所有的進口的產品應該要更完整的來做"},{"start":394.95,"end":395.231,"text":"主批檢查"},{"start":410.807,"end":434.254,"text":"轉來轉去,輪來輪去,這確實是一個我們應該再繼續精進加強的地方。謝謝委員提供了這寶貴的意見。好,部長。我要點出,院長要點出一個問題,就是你們現在有一件事情是行政院沒有做好的,而是行政院應該做的。從蘇丹紅事件到現在,風暴已經超過一個月了。但是到目前為止,"},{"start":435.274,"end":453.714,"text":"是不是行政院都沒有成立任何一個跨部會的小組每週盯進度每週好好的跨部會大家橫向的聯繫來追蹤進度以我剛剛講的例子今天食藥署發現了任何事情如果你有一個跨部會的小組法務部就應該動起來啊"},{"start":455.316,"end":472.397,"text":"法務部就應該要立刻去追查這個剛剛林淑芬委員還在提到的這個事件是我們在未還委員會裡面開會他揭發出來的但是法務部什麼時候才查什麼時候才動起來法務部是今天吧是不是"},{"start":474.219,"end":502.935,"text":"跟委員報告一下,我們相關的地檢署啊,早就已經分案在偵查,而且要申請法院啊,計壓獲准。有壓了兩個人,包括了新北地檢署,包括了雲林地檢署,還有高雄地檢署。有三個地檢署在高檢署的指揮統合之下,都全部動起來了。我問的是什麼時候才動起來?很早就動起來,所以才有生壓獲准,才有交保。高雄是什麼時候?高雄比較晚。"},{"start":503.868,"end":528.968,"text":"但是最早雲林還有新北我今天要講的就是爆發這麼大規模的食安危機為什麼到現在行政院竟然還沒有組成一個跨部會的指揮小組我想喔在這個行政院是不是現在立刻組起來可以嗎我們的食安辦實際上都一直在掌握相關的這一些食安的問題"},{"start":530.919,"end":533.864,"text":"這一件事情因為剛才有很多的事證發現確實是廠商、布華廠商確實有很這個嚴密的這樣的一個"},{"start":542.728,"end":564.591,"text":"的一個違法的情況我們在中央的我們來成立一個小組來統籌。 院長我要求你立刻成立一個小組而這個成績不能太低就是由至少是副院長我想副院長也很有能力可以來指揮各部會把這個案子儘速的查清"},{"start":565.091,"end":580.504,"text":"我剛剛講過這個數字還有很多還在市面上流竄所以你要在最快的時間之內落幕你必須要一個強而有力的指揮讓各部會真正動起來這件事情才有辦法處理跟解決"},{"start":581.124,"end":608.892,"text":"要不然不是靠立法委員來,立法委員舉報一個你們辦一個舉報一個辦一個,這樣就叫做被動跟消極。我相信如果整個行政院願意立刻動起來的話,這個蘇丹紅事件的風暴可以在最快的時間落幕。如果沒有這樣子做的話,再查一個月還查不完。為什麼?這個數字真的很龐大。我們行政院來組一個跨部會的小組馬上來做。好,謝謝院長。我們來組這樣的一個小組。那我接下來就要問各部會了。"},{"start":609.392,"end":636.488,"text":"我們的食安這個匯報裡面大家都是有責任的但是到目前為止我看到我們衛福部部長最辛苦了還戴著口罩然後在委員會裡面所有的事情好像他們一間挑然後就是這個整個食藥署來做但是這件事情太龐雜了我以下我要就教幾位部長們在食安風暴當中你們到底在做什麼我先請教教育部部長"},{"start":638.066,"end":653.055,"text":"這一件事情涉及到學童的營養午餐的問題。結果我們發現呢第一時間出來之後教育部都沒有聲音學童的營養午餐也都沒有在管然後是各縣市政府"},{"start":653.815,"end":674.217,"text":"教育局或者是教育處他們自己先跳出來自己說為了學童的這個安全所以他們來進是教育局跟教育處先跳出來而且到昨天如果不是本期在委員會裡面要求這個部長要趕快行文給這個教育部要求全國一致的標準"},{"start":674.818,"end":686.088,"text":"你還是讓他個性歧視啊昨天第一時間的時候你就發現有些縣市說哎呀我們的縣市都沒有這個問題產品所以可以不用可以不用這個禁止"},{"start":688.059,"end":711.85,"text":"現成這個這個很多縣市是沒有跟進的誤判結果呢後來發現不對啊為什麼這個食藥署繼續公佈了急轉彎一急轉彎就是說我們不只學校要進我們這個長照機構也要進我們這個相關的醫療機構也要進到目前為止我看到的是每一個縣市禁止的品項"},{"start":716.392,"end":724.017,"text":"教育部部長,為什麼在第一時間什麼事情都沒有做?在這件事情也太消極了吧?學童的食安你不用把關嗎?教育部也從食材平台裡面讓學校"},{"start":742.585,"end":742.725,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":757.389,"end":771.598,"text":"那你們就是慢半拍啊,為什麼地方政府跑得比你們快?昨天第一時間就十幾個縣市政府,人家就宣布了。為什麼?因為他們看到衛福部說市場上還有未爆彈啊,他們也不敢保證啊。"},{"start":772.995,"end":774.576,"text":"您們速度為什麼這麼慢呢?"},{"start":774.576,"end":798.207,"text":"那我就問你,衛福部本席在昨天委員會就提了臨時提案,要求全國一致。昨天晚上9點衛福部把公文給教育部了,你今天批了沒?有沒有要求全國要一致?因為昨天這個衛福部學部長這邊提到可能在查緝的時間還要將近一個月,那這個時間教育部在昨天已經發函給所有縣市跟學校。"},{"start":798.831,"end":799.871,"text":"你有第一時間發函嗎?"},{"start":799.871,"end":823.54,"text":"是,昨天就發了。我希望這個教育部,你們守護學童的時寒,要動起來,不要這麼的被動。我目前看到都是地方政府跑在前面了。那中央級的部長不可以這樣子啊。你應該是要做一個定調跟領導,而不是讓地方政府跑在前面。那另外一個我問你,你現在品項部分,你要進哪些品項?現在每一個縣市都還不一樣。有的進,"},{"start":824.46,"end":829.868,"text":"昨天對於這個項字裡面這兩大項辣椒粉跟咖哩粉我們在昨天的公文裡面是這兩項"},{"start":839.462,"end":863.48,"text":"同意這兩項,那現在還有的縣市還跑出來有白胡椒粉,因為昨天也發現汙染了,那到底要怎麼做?我要求你去研議,就是不要這個整個臺灣然後就變成是多制,然後大家的步調不一,其實食安應該是一致的標準,這個是一個重大食安事件,我要求教育部要這樣做,好來你請回。"},{"start":864.921,"end":887.149,"text":"那我問一下這個法務部部長,你說你們主動偵辦了,那剛剛本席講的這個你要去查嗎?同一個地址,另外那家廠商要去查嗎?他如果有涉及到犯罪,我們檢察官一定會主動來查。他之前已經涉及到了,你認為有可疑,你們也應該主動去偵辦啊。你們偵辦不可以是太被動啊,不能靠立法委員辦案吧。"},{"start":888.149,"end":892.094,"text":"我希望這件事情法務部要主動性而且要硬起來,針對這一些還甚至敢去篡改報告的廠商,絕對是要重罰好不好。"},{"start":908.272,"end":934.68,"text":"好來接下來我要請經濟部經濟部轄下有這麼多的食品廠這一次爆發這麼大的一個事件請問經濟部部長在這一次食安風暴當中你做了什麼因為這一次是進口的問題不是國內所以國內的部分目前是沒有發現有任何問題那進口商是不是要自主的檢查等等那衛福部食藥署這邊有去"},{"start":935.302,"end":935.662,"text":"拜託經濟部要積極一點"},{"start":954.557,"end":967.853,"text":"到昨天在委員會討論的時候有一些購物平台還有就是他自己跟上游買來在加工的這一些業者他自己也成立網購的平台他們的商品繼續賣並沒有下架"},{"start":969.955,"end":993.193,"text":"那如果這些所有的事情通通都要由衛福部一個單位來承擔這個事件會辦得非常的緩慢但是經濟部這個他們本來就是歸你們管你們可以去要求啊所以這個部分我覺得經濟部也沒有動起來啊你們應該要主動來協助衛福部而不是被動的等著說啊你有什麼需要你跟我講我再來昨天在這個委員會裡面"},{"start":995.034,"end":1013.741,"text":"就有委員要求要去查這些廠商結果我們部長說萬米經濟部阿就是我每一個子公司我都去查我都變成經濟部阿那這代表經濟部你作為主管機關你要動起來阿這個部份部長你是不是可以承諾趕快進來這個查驗的行列需要我們協助的我們一定會來做"},{"start":1015.242,"end":1034.739,"text":"另外一個在2013年曾經發生毒澱粉事件我相信部長你一直長期都在經濟部你應該知道當時的毒澱粉事件為了盡快讓消費者可以安心他知道說哪一些品項這個廠商有自主去驗然後他的這個產品是沒有問題的"},{"start":1036.14,"end":1057.272,"text":"當時就做了一件事情是要求這些有使用到澱粉產品的不管你是珍珠奶茶你是霸丸你都要自己一個是你要求上面你的供應商給你一個保證證明他的澱粉是沒有問題的然後他就可以貼出這個公告說本店不使用含有酸氯酸的這個澱粉"},{"start":1059.853,"end":1088.792,"text":"那這個的好處是什麼一個就是你讓這一些廠商也動起來自己自清嘛就是說我這個東西是沒有問題的另外一個是讓他把這個壓力就是往上你要供應原料給我你要出具一個安全的證明啊如果我們有這樣的層層把關那我們的食安的漏洞就可以補起來啊那當時那個措施後來就是有止血因為他還加上了行政手段就是你今天貼出自清之後就要代表說你這個是沒有問題喔"},{"start":1089.813,"end":1112.492,"text":"那這個後端市場繼續查就是它還是持續抽驗如果抽驗到你又貼公告抽驗到你這個產品還是有問題那就開罰那這個就是一個更快速的引進你經濟部這邊的力量然後讓這整個風暴可以盡快的度過因為昨天部長也說我們有八成的辣椒是來自中國大陸"},{"start":1113.152,"end":1113.332,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":1133.431,"end":1150.665,"text":"這我們已經開始動起來了,我們除了藉由這個所謂的非東不可的系統告訴這些廠商之外,接下來下一步我們會找這個公協會,相關的公協會我們再再度的去重申那這個自主檢驗的這個"},{"start":1152.646,"end":1177.13,"text":"我問一下這個院長,你贊不贊成本席就是今天所建議的這個措施一定要也要同步去做,因為你現在整個查緝是由上而下,發現到哪裡查到哪裡,那我們現在是可以由下而上。對,我是覺得top down還有bottom up這兩個都是必要的,才能夠很完整的去讓這整個問題,未來這個整個問題的"},{"start":1187.642,"end":1209.818,"text":"所以院長你也贊成嘛那我就要求你今天所承諾的這個專案小組裡面要好好去督導而且要落實因為這一次蘇丹紅的事件我覺得讓很多的家長也不安心國人也不安心現在只要看到紅色的東西都會覺得心裡怕怕的而現在最新的是不是紅色的東西白胡椒粉他這個青辣椒粉他也加"},{"start":1210.879,"end":1222.809,"text":"真的是已經沒有辦法分辨了,本來是以為說有加這個紅辣椒的或者是咖哩的避一下,結果如果連白胡椒現在發現的是有人還這樣子惡意添加的話,那會讓大家感興趣。"},{"start":1232.976,"end":1256.23,"text":"所以我希望這個食安風暴可以盡快的落幕,那這一些業者,惡意的業者就應該要予以重懲。接下來本時要關心的是再生能源跟環境永續的問題。我們可以看到經濟部希望再生能源的發電量目標比是20%,部長。"},{"start":1258.905,"end":1268.991,"text":"就是到2025,原則上是2026的時候達到20%。 又再延一年了。但是你現在是9.9對不對?"},{"start":1268.991,"end":1277.157,"text":"9.5。去年底的時候。 那你的光電呢?你的光電你現在缺口是多少?"},{"start":1277.157,"end":1279.338,"text":"光電目前是超過12GB。"},{"start":1281.783,"end":1284.826,"text":"所以你還缺多少?你目標是20GW吧?"},{"start":1284.826,"end":1295.597,"text":"20對,還有8個GIGA要追,是。那我這邊還低估了,如果我這邊低估了,我現在講2.15GW,大概是還要在210座大巨蛋,這麼大。"},{"start":1297.219,"end":1321.349,"text":"那你如果是8的話那還要再乘以3倍那可能是將近超過500座大巨蛋的這麼大的一個面積那現在呢我就要讓這個院長來看一下本席不反對這個光電太陽能光電但是如果你的光電的發展已經影響到了我們的生態跟永續那這個就叫做本末倒置"},{"start":1321.889,"end":1344.349,"text":"我們來看一下這一些,現在出現的這一些亂象。第一個,我們原本餘電共生,其實是以農業為主。但結果我們現在的餘電共生,餘溫重變。我們現在餘電共生公告的面積,它佔比啊,佔你的養殖面積,通通都是七八成啊。"},{"start":1345.82,"end":1374.087,"text":"這麼大的一個比例有可能嗎?你如果是以養殖為主,院長你有看到這個問題嗎?如果是以養殖為主結果你現在公告出來的這些面積都是將近七八成還養得成嗎?而且過去還發生這些文革暴斃根本也沒有辦法然後我過去在地方政府服務的時候也發現他們反映說現在養殖的餘貨越來越少"},{"start":1375.249,"end":1389.476,"text":"這是不是因為我們餘溫重電,然後有些農民、漁民他可能就沒有要,因為這個價格比較好,所以讓那個量產也下降了,連砂板魚都變貴了,院長你知道嗎?"},{"start":1392.058,"end":1414.82,"text":"應該不是委員講的這樣所以委員講八成分母指的是什麼這個我再跟委員釐清但是比如說在嘉義台南的漁電共生其實從去年開始有收穫之後其實收穫的情形非常好那我其實也非常樂意帶委員去看那個漁電共生而且那個有太陽光電之後他其實可以防寒或者太熱"},{"start":1415.641,"end":1416.562,"text":"我跟委員說明第一個部分就是"},{"start":1432.159,"end":1433.139,"text":"所以你們的說法就是都沒有問題?公民團體的誤解囉?"},{"start":1462.014,"end":1463.435,"text":"本席要求你們提供具體的數據因為你們的說法跟"},{"start":1487.834,"end":1487.934,"text":"另外一個﹖"},{"start":1511.104,"end":1534.289,"text":"坎數重電這個過去其實有很多團體關心那本席是看了覺得非常的心痛就是說以我們現在追求環境永續樹木對我們人類非常的重要但是我們現在為了追求光電它的這個鋪設率不惜坎數重電這是對的嗎"},{"start":1536.009,"end":1561.974,"text":"院長你作為一個有高度的院長又是科學家你認為我們臺灣應該是要這樣子去發展嗎?我們沒有砍樹種田但是對一些林向不好的這個地力不佳的這個土地我們才會用來作為這個環電發電的這個場地林向不好跟地力不佳如何定義?有一個很嚴謹的定義嗎?我跟委員說明現在目前平定造林大概是1萬3千多公頃"},{"start":1563.274,"end":1580.51,"text":"那一萬三千多成你大概分為三類。第一類就是它已經具有生態價值的。那這個部分我們絕對不會去動它反而會去加碼去讓它維護生態。第二個部分是它的林項是可以繼續成材的。那20年可能那個數目還不夠大。"},{"start":1581.01,"end":1604.097,"text":"如果他繼續在10年的時候我們也會給他獎勵。 那第三個才是林項不佳的部分。 那林項不佳的部分他未來會恢復農業生產之用。 所以到目前為止我們只針對主要的這些林項的部分我們都不會去動他。 那只有少部分是針對土壤本身因為他林項不佳就是他土壤本身的地利是不好的。"},{"start":1604.457,"end":1605.017,"text":"那本席秀出來這一張圖這個是臨向不佳嗎?"},{"start":1618.377,"end":1637.035,"text":"這個要去看實際的情形我猜這個很多那個之前台廠的地他因為那個當時W關係去那個地不好然後去種林又沒有好好種那那個樹木其實都長不大所以那個那些的地其實也沒有辦法做很好的利用"},{"start":1637.495,"end":1665.509,"text":"院長我想要提出來就是我們不能本末倒置我說過我沒有反對光電綠能也很好但是如果你是因為達不到你原來設定的目標而因此毀棄了一些的原則然後讓我們的生態也遭到破壞這個我反對接下來再看一張我覺得這是一個很荒謬的照片這是我到嘉義看到的情況"},{"start":1666.85,"end":1669.493,"text":"請問院長,站在光電板上面的這個是什麼?看得出來嗎?應該是鳥類吧?對。"},{"start":1676.923,"end":1697.226,"text":"我們如果發展到如此這般的程度,要去鳥類的棲地,我們還要佈滿了光電板,本來它可以自由自在,在那邊它可以抓魚,它可以棲息,但是為了追求我們的光電的這個整個的目標,所以湖上面,"},{"start":1697.867,"end":1721.188,"text":"可以鋪設這些光電板不考慮原來這邊有沒有鳥類這個就是我看到的荒謬的一個現象這個真的應該繼續存在嗎在嘉義這一些鳥類其實是非常珍貴的資源而人類我們先用這樣的方式去破壞了他原來的棲地這樣真的是合理是正常的情況嗎"},{"start":1722.762,"end":1743.536,"text":"委員你這一張照片我是沒有看過但是在其他的這個案例當中我們是反而看到實際上當我們開始在相關的做這個觀點發展的時候有一些地方的棲地反而鳥類越來越多所以我是覺得以單一的照片來看"},{"start":1744.496,"end":1757.362,"text":"我需要瞭解說這個也是我跟委員報告我有去看過很多案場吼那他會鳥這麼多其實他是旁邊也有棲地那有的時候就會飛到光電板上面那所以有的人說他原來的棲地部長有我糾正你"},{"start":1761.064,"end":1789.097,"text":"那個就是它原來的棲地是因為我們不夠要去開發所以連這樣的地方我們都不放過連這樣的一個原來很漂亮的湖我們都必須在上面鋪滿了光電板這個就是本期最後時間有限我只是要提醒我只是要提醒院長就是我們環境的永續跟我們綠能的發展它應該要取得一個平衡而不是失衡"},{"start":1789.637,"end":1818.553,"text":"如果有一些的面向我們已經去侵襲到我們原來鳥類的棲地有一些我們該保留的林地也因為必須鋪設光電板而必須砍伐這個必須要有一個糾正的機制要有一個監督的機制而現在我看不到行政院裡面有任何一個部門來擔任這樣的角色大家都爭著在鋪設光電板沒有人喊煞車沒有人出來糾正所以我希望我們的環境部要硬起來"},{"start":1819.113,"end":1819.253,"text":"謝謝王委員"}]}},{"id":"149605","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149605","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e7383c0ce4a703cc2cf9dfc5de613682d230da91660cc9cbf8ba9b0039caa7a6f20f527d60d7d4815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"15:01:22 - 15:17:14","影片長度":"00:15:52","會議時間":"2024-03-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-08","duration":952,"end_time":"2024-03-08T15:17:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-08T15:01:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":320,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（15時1分）院長、各位大家午安。是不是請我們陳建仁院長？"],["主席：麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：林委員午安。"],["林委員淑芬：陳院長午安。"],["陳院長建仁：恭喜你當選連任，還有婦女節快樂！"],["林委員淑芬：謝謝，大家一起快樂。","我今天有點不太快樂是因為我其實這陣子滿忙的，我們家是經常煮飯的，我自己週末也經常煮，我很喜歡煮咖哩，因為它煮了一鍋，大家可以吃一整天，對職業婦女來講，它很方便，我就想該不會我也中標了吧？然後我因為很忙嘛，所以沒時間去看，在今天早上要出門的時候，終於拿出來看，發現的確我的咖哩粉是濟生公司的，就是整個案件一起頭的那一個。"],["陳院長建仁：那不能吃了。"],["林委員淑芬：但是很不幸的，我要去我買的超市換貨也不能退，而且我的那一批貨的到期日不在不合法的公告名單裡面，但我今天要再跟你講這個，是因為作為一個家庭主婦、作為一個食安的關心的人，其實我們真的很在乎，可是我們更在乎，因為我們知道食品的產業很寬、很廣、很多，很難一一管得齊全，可是我們唯一要求是，至少出問題了，政府要好好的管吧！"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["林委員淑芬：這個這麼卑微的需求，至少出問題了，要好好的管。可是今天我們看到業者非常膽大包天，在哪裡，你知道嗎？部長在這裡，部長當時跟大家報告，我們的邊境查驗從10%，一路走到20%、30%、50%，到去年12月11日以後，邊境的查驗是100%的查驗了，可是我們從衛福部的網頁裡面看到了，即便是100%查驗，這業者還可以在今年1月6日，就是你宣布100%查驗的時候，他在今年仍然進口了這一張單是1萬3,696公斤；1月28日仍然進口了9,000公斤；一樣是1月6日，仍然進口了1萬5,000公斤，這是同一群業者。我的意思是，我們都要100%查了，他還不怕，仍然進口了4萬公斤含有蘇丹紅的辣椒粉，所以這個業者簡直是膽大包天、囂張至極嘛！我們後來又查到這個業者，他在我們的登錄溯源系統，因為我們都講不會再有系統性的風險了，因為我們有溯源追蹤系統，這個事件告訴我們在溯源追蹤系統裡，他都胡亂登錄，他登錄上游跟誰買的，你知道嗎？我們食藥署也很認真地禁止了這家廠商不准再賣到臺灣來，可是它禁止的是一家船務公司叫 Kevin Shipping，它禁止了一家不是食品廠商而是 Kevin Shipping，它不是食品公司，事實上他們是船務公司，而我們政府禁止了船務公司，可是他真正的供貨商是誰呢？是這裡，我們這9家，我們先看這一頁，你看這一頁都是同一個集團，他們說他們是親戚，你會相信263號1樓和2樓，他是在透天厝同一棟房子裡面。透天厝登記了5家公司；265也是透天厝，都是住宅、民宅啦！裡面登記了3家公司；他們文龍東路同一個負責人，還有另外一個他們還有工廠也在文龍東路，但是是31號，我查出來的；他們有一家人頭公司叫做龍海同記，院長看得到嗎？龍海同記。","我們到中國的公司登記網去看，龍海同記負責人一模一樣，跟剛才高雄的那9家名單，登記龍海同記的負責人一模一樣，成立日期1997，營業範圍：加工、蔬菜水果加工，我的意思是說，我們海關邊境是我們源頭管理的最核心。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["林委員淑芬：第一個，他隨便登登，第二個他登載不實，登載了船運公司，我們禁止船運公司不能夠再輸入東西進來，可是他真正輸入到臺灣來的，不是Kevin Shipping啊！是叫做龍海同記、叫EASTRONG，EASTRONG其實你們也有查到，所以這是一個非常大的破口。","這個制度絕對要從源頭改進，我們有登，還要登載不實抓到才……現在你抓到他了，叫他供出上游是誰，供不齊全，叫他供出下游流向，我的那一瓶胡椒粉不在他們下游流向之列。下游流向、批號也都對不起來，所以這是一個好機會，我們絕對要澈底地革新，院長，給我們的源頭管理是一個真正有管理的源頭管理。這一種登載隨隨便便填一下，然後用人頭公司一次9家登記在同一個地址，這個問題很嚴重。"],["陳院長建仁：對，確實，我謝謝委員能夠查到這樣的情況。我想未來我們在整個登記的這個過程，還有廠商查驗的這個過程當中，一旦有該懲罰的部分，或者是要該改進的部分，我們一定要求他改進，這個實在是太嚴重……"],["林委員淑芬：你知道還有一個什麼問題嗎？他查驗了，你100%要查驗，查驗了4萬公斤有3批不合格，他不用付出成本，因為他只要退關，退出去中國給他們龍海同記再包裝一下，再重新用船運過來，再送也沒有關係，因為他沒有成本嘛！除了船運運費一項，其他他只要退關貨還在。以後食品如果是這樣子，被驗出摻有不合格添加物，雖然你們許輔在那裡，我是聽不下去。"],["陳院長建仁：不准出口。"],["林委員淑芬：你們吳秀梅講的，我也聽不下去。吳秀梅說3A致癌物質又不是一定致癌，但我們聽不下去。"],["陳院長建仁：這不對。"],["林委員淑芬：好，沒關係，如果有這種狀況，一律銷毀，不准退關，他才會怕。做錯事情的業者，然後被人家抓到，不用付出代價，沒白花錢、沒賠錢，沒有成本，下次敢再犯，而且原貨退出關，在公海上繞一圈馬上又進來。你看，又進來！這個就是事實擺在眼前，所以一定要銷毀，一定要叫他們不敢再這樣子做。"],["陳院長建仁：回去要懲罰。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。其實我今天有一個很重要的議題要討論，院長，你看臺北盆地，三重、蘆洲幾乎是一個島嶼，大家可能不知道三重、蘆洲是一個完整的島嶼，它的東側被淡水河包覆，西側是被疏洪道包覆。所以三重、蘆洲是一個島，那我們蘆洲是在島的最內側，所以蘆洲人要出蘆洲，大概要經過三重去聯外，或者是要經過橋梁才能聯外，而現在蘆洲人聯外所有道路的服務水準，我不曉得你知不知道A、B、C、D、E、F，它是最差的F等級的道路服務水準，如果有G、H、I的話，它應該在更後面。","但是我現在要講的不是單純現況這麼糟而已，因為行政院在111年8月核定了淡北道路的工程，但是你們卻突然跑出一個議題，是我們非常措手不及的，我一定要代表蘆洲人在這裡表示我們非常的錯愕！因為你們行政院要求新北市政府要去規劃關渡新橋，這個新橋是作為淡北道路施作的配套方案，目的是要做什麼？為什麼要馬上做這個關渡新橋呢？因為淡北道路通車以後，會讓大度路的車流增加，所以為了紓解大度路的車流，關渡新橋要把它導到我們五股、蘆洲這裡的103縣道，這個103縣道經過八里龍米路、五股的疏洪北路、成泰路等等，我要告訴你，這裡的服務水準現況是F級水準，而且是大塞車。他們本來想這裡的道路服務水準會提升、會變好，因為大家要去北海岸都要經過我們103縣道，淡江大橋通車以後會紓解，根據淡江大橋及其連絡道路建設核定本的推估，到時候如果淡江大橋通車，我們F級的服務水準會提升到B級，也就是往北1個小時大概3,835輛的車會下降到1,922輛，將近2,000輛，但是我們也看到，如果關渡新橋將大度路的車流引到103號縣道這個市區道路來，我們的服務水準會變成C到D，又會變很差，大概往南的部分1小時的車流量會從1,900變成2,300到2,800，所以他們預計1個小時要引進將近381到889輛，1個小時要增加將近900輛的車子進來，到時候我們的道路服務水準又會變成D，我要說這個是以鄰為壑！你要紓解臺北市大度路的車潮，你要讓我們五股人、新北人變成二等公民嗎？我們在地已經飽受塞車之苦，好不容易期待淡江大橋通車以後我們要舒緩一下、喘息一下，結果你看我們還要去負責幫臺北市的大度路紓解，我們還要繼續塞，這不公平！","院長，但是有方案，本來我們就一個方案，你看這個方案，關渡新橋其實是有一個方案，它本來還預計要打通觀音山隧道，直接穿越觀音山銜接64，如果你關渡新橋的施作可以和這個穿越觀音山的隧道同時進行，不要分階段，你才不會讓我們再飽受這種塞車之苦啊！所以我們在講，你們來跟我們說，我們未來要開闢這個隧道連接64，可是我們不要講第二階段，因為你們談的是下一階段，你們要先開橋，下一階段才要開隧道，我們不能接受！你只開橋，把我們當成第二階段，第二階段遙遙無期不打緊，只開橋，我們103號縣道又要塞得很嚴重！所以你們在淡北道路的核定版本又講開這個橋18億全部都補助，可是重點不是你們補助，你們還要求淡北道路跟關渡新橋要同時完工，我們也沒有辦法接受，你們同時完工，沒有搭配穿越觀音山的隧道，以鄰為壑啦！真的是太欺負我們了，老實說。"],["陳院長建仁：聽委員這樣的分析，我是覺得關渡新橋的興建確實是要通盤的來考慮，這個部分在可行性研究這樣的區塊裡面，一定要把您的訴求納入這一個可行性的考量當中。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你有沒有要講的？"],["王部長國材：的確，淡北道路當時因為在北投的地方有談到會把車流帶進來，所以有這個方案。"],["林委員淑芬：所以北投人比較大，我們蘆洲人、五股人比較小？"],["王部長國材：關渡新橋跟接64，我們現在請新北市政府再做一個可行性評估。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，你們只做關渡新橋的評估，沒有64隧道。"],["王部長國材：有，有64的評估。"],["林委員淑芬：那你們不是同一階段，因為你們告訴我們說，這個沒關係，你們會叫他們去評估。可是你們其實私底下來溝通也有講，為什麼不能同時做？因為怕觀音山隧道穿越工程環評要拖很多時間，所以你們為了怕環評拖時間，不敢說同時、同階段要去進行，如果是這種狀況，111年到現在已經2年了……"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，115年的時候淡江大橋會完工，有很多也會跑到64上去，所以我是覺得這個到底未來要不要做，要看可行性的結果。"],["林委員淑芬：如果沒有64，未來64號道路的服務水準在淡江大橋完工以後也會飽和，64也會塞車，64更是我們五股和蘆洲非常重要的聯外道路，也會塞車，如果不能銜接，你的言下之意是可以把大度路的車潮引進來，我們不能再銜接到64嗎？"],["王部長國材：我們在可行性評估時跟新北市政府來妥善處理。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在在這裡跟你講，我們不能接受兩階段，然後沒有配套，直接就把往臺北市大度路的車潮引到我們這裡來，我們堅決的反對。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員淑芬的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第52號王委員育敏質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃健豪","沈發惠","柯志恩","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","王育敏","張宏陸","陳菁徽","羅美玲","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":24,"meetingDate":["2024-03-08"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00002","1130601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130601_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.785343750000001,"end":6.257843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.01721875,"end":10.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.05034375,"end":12.585968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.80471875,"end":20.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.69909375,"end":18.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.75346875,"end":22.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.38596875,"end":34.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.15221875,"end":37.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.04221875,"end":36.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.22346875,"end":43.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.88971875,"end":40.024718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.024718750000005,"end":40.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.19346875,"end":40.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.737218750000004,"end":46.774718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.94346875,"end":55.094093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.17846875,"end":62.400968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.000343750000006,"end":62.367218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.400968750000004,"end":62.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.95784375,"end":67.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.57721875,"end":76.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.62659375,"end":76.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.11596875000001,"end":94.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.08784375,"end":112.09784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.92659375000001,"end":101.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.04284375,"end":113.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.26221875,"end":133.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.51221875000002,"end":156.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.05284375000002,"end":162.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.06034375000002,"end":170.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.75534375,"end":172.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.30784375000002,"end":173.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.60721875000002,"end":175.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.81346875,"end":183.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.08659375000002,"end":189.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.09409375,"end":201.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.29909375000003,"end":218.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.32159375,"end":223.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.94096875000002,"end":228.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.34534375,"end":234.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.79596875000001,"end":236.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.98534375000003,"end":239.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.44909375,"end":241.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.81159375000001,"end":245.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.59596875000003,"end":245.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.01784375000003,"end":248.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.41409375,"end":251.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.92409375000003,"end":252.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.01659375000003,"end":255.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.24409375,"end":259.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.27721875000003,"end":262.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.14596875,"end":272.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.17409375,"end":272.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.45659375,"end":276.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.65909375,"end":273.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.71346875,"end":284.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.50534375,"end":288.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.28534375000004,"end":297.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.33034375,"end":303.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.83159375,"end":305.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.56534375,"end":310.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.76721875000004,"end":325.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.65096875,"end":326.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.79846875000004,"end":330.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.30846875000003,"end":332.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.44721875000005,"end":334.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.38784375,"end":337.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.81346875,"end":341.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.10409375,"end":358.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.63721875000005,"end":363.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.61971875,"end":367.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.09159375,"end":368.78346875},{"speaker":"SPE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Shipping。它禁止了一家不是食品廠商是Kevin Shipping。它不是食品公司,它是他們的船務公司。"},{"start":229.4,"end":254.736,"text":"而我們政府禁止了船務公司可是他真正的供貨商是誰呢是這裡我們這九家我們先看這一頁你看這一頁都是同一個集團他們說他們是親戚你會相信2631號1號一樓和二樓他是透天厝同一棟房子裡面透天厝喔登記了五家公司"},{"start":256.317,"end":279.247,"text":"二、六、五也是偷天錯,都是住宅、民宅啊。 裡面登記了三家公司。他們文龍東路同一個負責人,還有另外一個。 他們還有工廠,也在文龍東路,但是是31號。 我查出來的。 好。 他們有一家人頭公司叫做龍海統計。 院長看得到嗎?"},{"start":279.247,"end":284.309,"text":"龍海統計。 好,我們看一下。 我們到中國的公司登記網去看。"},{"start":285.938,"end":304.52,"text":"龍海統計負責人一模一樣跟剛才高雄的那9家名單登記龍海統計的負責人一模一樣成立日期1997他做了營業範圍加工蔬菜水果加工我的意思是說"},{"start":306.618,"end":332.557,"text":"我們海關邊境是我們源頭管理的最核心。第一個,他隨便登燈。第二個,他登載不實。登載了船運公司可是我們禁止掉了船運公司不能夠再輸入東西進來。可是他真正的輸入到台灣來的不是開分序品啊,是叫做龍海同濟叫eat strong,eat strong"},{"start":333.502,"end":358.562,"text":"其實你們也有查到,所以這個是一個非常大的破口。 這個制度絕對要從源頭改進。 我們有燈,然後要燈載不實,但是抓到才那個。 現在你抓到他了,叫他公出上游是誰,公布齊全。 叫他公出下游流向我的那一瓶胡椒粉不在他們下游流向之列。"},{"start":359.713,"end":383.601,"text":"下游流向批號也都對不起來所以這是一個好機會我們絕對要徹底的革新院長給我們一個源頭管理是一個真正的有管理的源頭管理然後這一種登載隨隨便便填一下然後用源頭公司一次9家登記在同一個地址"},{"start":385.598,"end":394.463,"text":"這個問題很嚴重對確實我謝謝委員能夠查到這樣的情況我想未來我們在整個登記的這個過程還有呢這個廠商的這個查驗的這個過程當中一旦有"},{"start":403.077,"end":417.228,"text":"你知道還有一個什麼問題嗎?他查驗了你百分之一百要查驗他查驗四萬公斤三批不合格他不用付出成本"},{"start":417.788,"end":442.916,"text":"因為他只要退官退出去中國再給他們龍海銅器再包裝一下再重新再傳運再過來再送也沒有關係因為他沒有成本嘛除了傳運運費一下其他他只要退官貨還在以後食品如果是這樣子被驗出參有雖然你們許甫在那裡我是聽不下去你們吳秀美講的我也聽不下去吳秀美說"},{"start":444.076,"end":470.254,"text":"三A致癌物質又不是一定致癌,但我們停不下去。好,沒關係,如果有這種狀況,一律銷毀,不准退官。他才會怕,這不就是事的嚴重。若叫人抓到,要保證大家沒了一枚筆記。沒有成本,下次敢再犯。而且原貨退出關,在公海上繞一圈,馬上又進來。你看,又進來。"},{"start":471.978,"end":496.705,"text":"這個就是事實擺在眼前,所以一定要銷毀,一定要叫他們不敢再這樣子做。我今天有一個很重要的議題要討論。院長,因為我們三重蘆洲,你看台北盆地,三重蘆洲幾乎是一個島嶼。大家可能不知道,三重蘆洲是一個完整的島嶼。"},{"start":497.685,"end":526.281,"text":"他的東側被淡水河包覆西側是被疏洪道包覆所以三重、蘆洲是一個島那我們蘆洲是在島的最內側所以蘆洲人啊出要出蘆洲大概要經過三重然後去連外或者是要經過橋樑才能連外而現在蘆洲人的連外所有的道路服務水準就是我不曉得你知不知道ABCDE"},{"start":527.581,"end":546.646,"text":"他是最差的F等級的道路服務水準。如果有GHI的話他應該在更後面。但是呢我現在要講的不是單純現況這麼糟而已。因為呢行政院在111年的8月合訂了淡北道路的工程。"},{"start":547.694,"end":566.613,"text":"但是呢你們卻突然跑出一個議題是我們非常的措手不及我一定要代表盧卓人在這裡表示我們非常的錯愕因為呢你們行政院提出了一個新北市政府要求新北市政府要去規劃要新設關渡新橋"},{"start":568.811,"end":590.211,"text":"新橋要跟淡北道路銜接的配套是它是作為淡北道路施作的配套方案然後目的是要做什麼為什麼要馬上做這個關渡新橋呢因為要降低淡北道路通車以後車流會讓大渡路的車流增加所以為了紓解"},{"start":591.032,"end":613.406,"text":"大渡路的車流關渡新橋要把它疏解導到我們五谷蘆洲這裡叫做103縣道在這個103縣道經過八里龍米路五谷的蘇鴻北路成泰路等等我要告訴你這裡的服務水準現況現況現況是F級水準而且是大塞車"},{"start":617.912,"end":646.075,"text":"他們本來想說這裡的道路水準服務水準會提升會變好因為淡江大橋通車以後未來因為大家要去這個北海岸都要經過我們103縣道嘛通車以後會疏解所以根據呢淡江大橋集體聯絡道路建設核定本的推估到時候如果淡江大橋通車我們的F級的水準會服務水準會提升到B級"},{"start":647.472,"end":666.597,"text":"也就是呢往北一次大概3835輛一個小時的車會下降到1922輛將近2000輛但是呢我們也看到如果關渡新橋將大渡路的車流引到103號線道來這個市區道路來"},{"start":672.826,"end":687.321,"text":"我們的服務水準會變成稀到低,又會變很差。大概往南的部分會增加2300,它的那個一小時的車流量會從1900到會變成2300到"},{"start":691.426,"end":707.522,"text":"兩千八所以他們預計一個小時要引進將近381到889輛一個小時要增加將近900輛的車子進來到時候我們的大陸服務水準又會變成低不要說"},{"start":709.023,"end":737.071,"text":"這個是以零為禍。你要紓解台北市大渡路的車潮?你要讓我們五股人、新北人變成二等公民嗎?這個我們在地已經飽受塞車之苦,好不容期待淡江大橋通車以後我們要舒緩一下、喘息一下。結果你看我們,我們還要去負責幫台北市的大渡路紓解,我們還要繼續塞,這不公平。"},{"start":738.311,"end":765.899,"text":"但是院長有方案因為呢本來我們就一個方案你看這個方案關渡新橋他其實是有一個方案是因為他本來還預計要打通觀音山隧道直接穿越觀音山銜接64如果你關渡新橋的施作可以跟這個穿越觀音山的隧道同時進行不要分階段"},{"start":767.233,"end":787.032,"text":"你才不會讓我們再飽受這種塞車之苦啊。 所以我們在講說,你們來跟我們說我們未來會要開闢這個隧道連接64,可是我們不要講第二階段,因為你們談的是說下一階段你們要先開橋,下一階段才要開隧道,我們不能接受。"},{"start":787.372,"end":813.045,"text":"你只開橋把我們當成第二階段第二階段遙遙無期不打緊只開橋我們103號線道又要塞得很嚴重所以你們在合訂版本淡北道路合訂版本你們又講說開這個橋18億我們全部都補助可是重點不是你們補助你們還要求淡北道路跟關路新橋要同時完工"},{"start":814.125,"end":823.712,"text":"我們也沒有辦法接受你們同時完工沒有搭配穿越觀音山的隧道以臨為禍真的是太欺負我們了老實說"},{"start":825.219,"end":826.1,"text":"部長,您要不要要講的?"},{"start":846.038,"end":849.242,"text":"現在關渡新橋跟街64,我們現在請新北市政府再做一個可行性評估。"},{"start":865.66,"end":878.176,"text":"沒有,你們只做關渡新橋的評估,沒有六六四隧道。 有有有,有六六四的評估。那你們不是同一階段,因為你們告訴我們說,這個沒關係你們會叫他們去評估,可是你們其實私底下來溝通有講啦,為什麼不能同時做啦。"},{"start":880.859,"end":899.162,"text":"因為怕觀音山隧道穿越工程環評要拖很多時間所以你們為了環評拖時間所以不敢說同時同階段要去進行那如果在這種狀況已經講了111到現在才兩年了我跟委員報告115年的時候淡江大橋會完工"},{"start":900.043,"end":922.558,"text":"所以有很多也會跑到65上去,所以,欸64上去啦,所以我是覺得說這個做可行性,到底未來要不要做,要看可行性。那如果沒有64,你說64未來道路的服務水準也會飽和啦,當然江大橋完工以後也會飽和,64也會塞車,64更是我們五谷岸蘆洲人,連外道路非常重要,也會塞車。"},{"start":951.091,"end":951.131,"text":"臨時主席"}]}},{"id":"149604","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149604","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e7383c0ce4a703cc8c811e33bf7a3aaad230da91660cc9cbf8ba9b0039caa7a6ea5380e059a3204e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"14:30:28 - 15:01:05","影片長度":"00:30:37","會議時間":"2024-03-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-08","duration":1837,"end_time":"2024-03-08T15:01:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-08T14:30:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（14時30分）謝謝敬愛的韓院長以及我們陳院長所領軍的行政院團隊，楊瓊瓔發言。今天是38婦女節，首先要祝福全國的女性大家天天快樂。首先請我們的陳院長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：以及國防部長。"],["主席：麻煩請國防部邱部長。"],["陳院長建仁：楊委員午安，恭喜你當選連任，也祝你婦女節快樂。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝院長。國防部邱部長昨天在備詢時提到，第一擊是指開砲、開槍，但我們現在已經改變了。部長，你昨天也說了，你說兩岸瀕臨動武，情勢嚴峻，擔心到睡不著。院長，這個說法你認同嗎？我好緊張耶！"],["陳院長建仁：不會啦，我想國防部長憂國憂民，這是我們國人的福氣啦，但是國防部長一定要日理萬機，所以他對於兩岸的發展當然很關心，但是我們會努力來維持臺海現況的和平，然後……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝院長的回答，對於邱部長，我是非常的尊敬。本席要請教的是，部長提出了這樣的論點，請問院長，您也認同這樣的論點，照你剛才所說的，那麼你有跟蔡總統及賴準總統報告，他們是不是也認同這樣的說法？"],["陳院長建仁：我想我們每一個人都希望臺海能夠維持和平穩定，國防部這邊……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請針對問題回答。"],["陳院長建仁：對，就國防部這邊，我請國防部長回答。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請部長……"],["邱部長國正：報告委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有跟蔡英文總統報告嗎？你有跟賴準總統報告嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，第一個，所謂第一擊的界定，誠如剛剛委員所講的，以往是認為他們開槍、開砲才叫第一擊，我們才反擊。現在因為我們發覺有無人機的問題，還有空飄氣球等這些灰色地帶，而且有灰色事件……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，本席了解，我們對第一擊的定義已經不一樣了。"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你會緊張得不得了，甚至睡不著。請教，你有跟蔡總統以及賴準總統報告嗎？"],["邱部長國正：國防的戰備規定是國防部來核定的，但是在核定之前，我們一定要做一個……在這個狀況推演當中，我會跟總統做個說明，所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，所以說明了嗎？"],["邱部長國正：總統是三軍統帥，第一擊雖然我下令，但我一定會跟他請示。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你給蔡英文總統說明了？"],["邱部長國正：這一定要。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有給賴準總統報告了嗎？"],["邱部長國正：不是，這不是報告，戰備規定是我核定的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：說明嗎？有沒有說明？"],["邱部長國正：但是要用的話……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：給蔡英文總統說明了，有給賴準總統說明了嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，戰備規定是我核定的，核定以後，適切的在推演當中我會跟總統說明，假如有什麼狀況，我會打電話跟總統報告，礙於時間的規定，我這個報告不是在請示，我就建議……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，報告了嗎？"],["邱部長國正：這是我講過的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問報告了嗎？"],["邱部長國正：這講過。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：講過了？那跟賴準總統也講過了？"],["邱部長國正：沒有，因為當時……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：跟蔡英文總統報告了？"],["邱部長國正：對……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席建議，因為賴準總統即將上任，他也應該要瞭解情勢。","接下來本席要請教，我們的反制計畫，以往的政府曾經在臺海危機的時候說過自己有十幾種版本，請教部長，我們的反制計畫有沒有準備？有多少版本？"],["邱部長國正：國軍經常戰備時期的處理規定也有依據，應急作戰也有計畫，還有全面作戰也是有計畫……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都有？"],["邱部長國正：一定有計畫，抵禦那麼久了……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，因為我們必須要聽到部長告訴我們，讓我們能安心，要不然你睡不著，我們更緊張啊！所以12海里如果往內延伸……"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我睡不著是因為我責任所在，我一定很擔憂……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以我們讚許你，讚許你擔憂。"],["邱部長國正：但我擔憂的原因在哪裡，是想說我把這個掌握好狀況之後，以便讓我們的民間能夠安心，我們期望這樣子，不要搞得大家沸沸揚揚好像很緊張，我是這個著眼。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以您的擔心是讓我們放心。"],["邱部長國正：就這樣講。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就這樣講，你認同？好不容易我們有共同點，所以本席也要再請教，目前我們這個12海里的話如果往內海再延伸，那等於臨界線快到。"],["邱部長國正：沒有什麼延伸的啦，內海就是12海里，就是我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就12海里？這個要講清楚喔！"],["邱部長國正：對，這個沒有以後，以後沒有辦法再縮進來了，這是最後防線……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要不然再往內延伸，那等於就可以看到101了喔。"],["邱部長國正：這是最後防線，24海里我們就要反應了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：12海里不反應？"],["邱部長國正：12海里不能再退，24海里都不能退了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，不能退，就是這一句話，所以我們人民希望能夠安心。我也謝謝你，你的憂心等於是讓人民放心，因為人民希望要和平，兩岸和平這是人民的需要。"],["邱部長國正：這個不用感謝，這是我們的責任。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，你一直點頭，謝謝。部長您請回，接下來我們再來請唐鳳部長。"],["唐部長鳳：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我們數位部從111年的8月份成立到現在大概1年半的時間，很多人在質疑你的成效，本席不願意質疑，我們希望看到成效，但是在這裡我們要請問，現在數位部的辦公室是怎麼回事呢？現在我們是用租的嘛，是不是？"],["唐部長鳳：跟委員報告，我們有一個辦公室是租的，然後一個是我們自己的，我們自己的在延平，然後租的是在行政院附近，那大概……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：租的在行政院附近，一年要多少租金啊？"],["唐部長鳳：大概5年之後會到行政院旁邊的行一、行二這個地方，變成一個永久的辦公地點，那在前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問你現在的租金是多少錢啊？"],["唐部長鳳：在前1年半應該是大概7,000萬左右。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1年7,000萬左右？"],["唐部長鳳：1年半。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1年半還是1年？要講清楚。"],["唐部長鳳：前1年半，因為我們是從……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你是簽1年半7,000萬是不是？還是1年7,000萬？"],["唐部長鳳：對，1年半，因為我們是從2022年中間開始……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以1年半7,000萬，是嗎？正確數字，是不是？"],["唐部長鳳：我記得是這樣子。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1年半，不是1年喔。"],["唐部長鳳：我記得是這樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是1年半7,000萬，好。接下來有人在質疑，您要中央的國有財產署把南門中繼市場的用地收回，有沒有這回事？"],["唐部長鳳：我們1月就已經確定沒有這件事了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有這回事？"],["陳院長建仁：對，因為臺北市政府已經不要了，不使用了，所以就……"],["唐部長鳳：而且我們也不是到華光，我們是到行政院旁邊的行一、行二。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1.7億蓋的南門中繼市場拆除，花了1.7億現在拆除，傳聞是因為部長您要這一塊土地自己來蓋大樓，有沒有這回事？"],["陳院長建仁：那是臺北市政府不要……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有這回事？部長回答吧，因為你主辦……"],["唐部長鳳：是。我們今年1月……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有這回事？請教，你有沒有要這一塊地？"],["唐部長鳳：我沒有要華光這一塊地，我們今年1月就被通知……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你沒有要這一塊地？"],["唐部長鳳：我們今年1月就被通知，我們是到行政院旁邊的行一、行二……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那為什麼會有公文說你要這塊地？而且臺北市政府數次跟國有財產署說讓我們延續、繼續，不要拆掉我們用1.7億蓋的中繼市場──南門市場。為什麼？"],["唐部長鳳：在去年的時候，國有財產署確實有來調查我們的意願，但是調查完之後到今年1月，我們已經收到行政院一個很明確的指示說，我們不是去華光而是到行一、行二……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是行政院的指示，本席是要請教，你有沒有要這一塊地？"],["陳院長建仁：委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有？部長請說明，數位部有沒有要這一塊地嘛？"],["唐部長鳳：我們數位部從頭到尾都是說，國有財產署給我們什麼永久的地，新光那邊我們就可以不要再租。"],["陳院長建仁：對，他們確實……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那為什麼要拆掉這個市場呢？"],["陳院長建仁：這要問臺北市政府啊！這是臺北市政府不要……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個要問清楚啊！"],["陳院長建仁：所以本來臺北市政府在上個會期的時候……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝院長。部長，你上來是不是要說明？現在唐鳳部長說是你們問他們，那他說你給什麼地，他就要什麼地，但是外界有傳聞，本席不希望有任何的矛盾點，他是如此說，但是外界傳聞不是這樣，而是說唐鳳部長要求要這塊地，所以你要拆掉這個市場，有沒有這回事？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，那塊土地是國有的土地，然後是出租給臺北市……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有這回事，請說明。"],["莊部長翠雲：出租給臺北市作為南門市場的中繼市場，現在南門市場已經蓋完了，所以要搬回去了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！1.7億啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：這塊土地當時本來就是臺北市政府跟國有財產署租的嘛，租期也滿了，它不要用的時候當然要還。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，它要申請延續，你們不准。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有！這個完全沒有！本來上次林昶佐委員有在大院這裡提到，希望他們能夠作為東門市場的中繼市場，因為東門市場要整修，後來他們沒有這個想法，他們自己不要，他們就自動把土地還給我們了！所以我覺得這個是好奇怪的議題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說好奇怪，我也覺得好奇怪。"],["陳院長建仁：是啊！我覺得很奇怪。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席一直認為，我們不希望社會有矛盾點，大家說明清楚，因為外界有傳聞，本席再說明一次，也就是唐鳳部長之前希望要這塊地來蓋大樓，但是現在又不要了，所以你現在也用7,000萬租了那個地方1年半，那你現在還會不會自己蓋自己的大樓呢？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這個你要問部長，因為我們行政院是通盤在考慮。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，它是部啊！你會不會要再自己蓋大樓呢？"],["唐部長鳳：行一、行二是一個聯合的，就是很多個部會一起使用的地方，我們一向都是跟國產署說，我們現在是租新光，那國產署在任何時候指定我們去哪裡，我們就不用再租新光，我們一直是這個立場，並沒有說指定要去哪裡。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們國產署會給他嗎？因為他現在的租約是1年半，你在1年半後會給他新的大樓嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是新的大樓，而是那一塊土地，因為行一、行二是整個我們在國有土地去盤點……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那一塊要蓋到什麼時候呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：它是行政區，適合蓋辦公大樓，然後調配沒有自有辦公廳舍的機關去那邊蓋。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，院長，那這一塊地要多久時間可以給數位部自己的辦公大樓呢？"],["陳院長建仁：關於數位部的辦公大樓，剛才已經講得很清楚，就是行政院會做通盤的考量，如果……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候呢？因為他現在租那個地方1年半要7,000萬啊！什麼時候？唐鳳部長，你應該要有所作為啊！"],["陳院長建仁：如果來不及的話，那就繼續要租用嘛！這個我們要看我們通盤的規劃。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：唐鳳部長，你是要繼續……"],["陳院長建仁：因為不是只有給數位部啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，沒關係，現在我們討論，你是要繼續一直租下去，還是希望你自己有大樓？"],["唐部長鳳：我剛才有說了，在任何時候國有財產署告訴我們有哪個地方我們可以去，我們就那個時候會退租了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，院長，他什麼時候可以去？"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才講過了，就是看行一、行二的那個大樓什麼時候蓋好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那什麼時候呢？有沒有一個時間點？"],["陳院長建仁：有在規劃。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要規劃多久？"],["陳院長建仁：這個要看規劃的時間。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：據聞要7年，會嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：多久？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：7年，會嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不會啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那要幾年？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這個要看規劃的時間。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：規劃時間沒有7年，那要幾年？"],["陳院長建仁：我怎麼知道？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你當院長都不知道！你好好去規劃。"],["陳院長建仁：在規劃中啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席就是希望既然社會有疑慮，你們應該要講清楚，請你把規劃的時間點給本席。","好，你們兩位請回。"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，本席要跟你討論一個HPV疫苗的問題，因為孩子是我們的寶貝，你是公衛專家，我給你稱讚，你是第一位呼籲男女應共同接種HPV疫苗的公衛專家……"],["陳院長建仁：世界衛生組織也這樣主張。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，不要做半套，因為現在少子化，每一個孩子都是國家的寶貝，更是父母的寶貝，所以我來請求你，我來拜託你，在這幾年來我一直關注這樣的議題，要讓孩子健康，所以終於談好了讓我們的國中女生都施打，當時告訴我們說：沒關係，我們先從女生開始，我也願意，我也感謝，如果女生有達到九成，那我們就來考慮男生。院長，現在換我給你報告、說明，我們已經達到九成多，你是公衛專家，所以我今天務必要跟你討論這個問題。因為我們看到美國30年來HPV的頭頸癌從16.3%增加到70%，好恐怖耶！這都是我們的寶貝耶！日本10年來從45%提升到52%，我們臺灣現在有30%口咽癌是因為HPV，所以本席一直很難過，因為看到這個數字每一年增加6.9%，我們公衛最重要的就是什麼？預防最重要。院長，你身為院長，我要拜託你，我們好不容易，請教院長，我們公衛預防疾病到底是要領先指標還是要落後指標？"],["陳院長建仁：當然要領先嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然要領先嘛！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對，當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們看到美國70%，日本是這樣，我們每一年6.9%，我就好緊張。所以全國家長……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，這個70%……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，沒關係，你不要……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，這個70%是不好的領先，我們不要領先這個。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：全國家長會長聯盟的理事長自己本身也得到了，他才充分知道預防是多麼重要，而且他是全國家長協會的總會長，所以在之前我們跨黨派藍、綠、白，大家一起開記者會公布，我們已經達到了九成，我們希望男生要施打。","我們也做了一個統計，如果國中生來施打這個疫苗，只要大概2.5億的經費，這個占我們政府總預算是極少的，所以我在這邊要拜託院長，公衛政策的三段五級，最重要的就是預防重於治療，我看到全世界的數字在增加，而且全世界的公衛組織一直強調……"],["陳院長建仁：世界衛生組織。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！因為癌症不會看你的性別，對不對？也不是我們可以決定的，那我們應該要保護我們的孩子，投資未來世代，因應臺灣的少子化。新總統、準總統賴清德也喊出了投資未來世代，我相信防癌疫苗就是對我們投資年輕人的健康非常非常的重要，所以我在這邊來拜託院長，我們之前所努力的已經達陣成功，女生已經是9成以上，而且我們也看到成效，可以節省我們很多的資源、我們的衛生資源、我們的醫療資源，而且讓父母安心，所以我來拜託，我們希望我們HPV公費疫苗的施打政策不分男女，女生已經有了，男生要趕快加入，讓我們可以成為亞洲第一個，這個可以光耀全世界，亞洲第一個，超越日本跟韓國。請教院長。"],["陳院長建仁：委員你講得很好，你真的是公共衛生的專家，也是預防醫學的專家。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然……"],["陳院長建仁：我現在要跟你回應的就是，我個人本身也是覺得應該男女都接種HPV的疫苗，在臺灣，實際上跟HPV比較有關係的口咽的部分的癌症是口咽癌，口腔癌比較少，是口咽癌。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，口咽癌。"],["陳院長建仁：所以在這個部分，我們已經有請衛福部在研議，我們正在盤算經費，如果可以的話，我們當然很樂意作為亞洲領先的國家。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：全力支持？因為我要問這個之前，我也做了功課，我也特別跟薛部長……我很讚許他，他對於預防的部分很支持。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：而且真的可以讓我們家長安心，所以院長你的答復，也就是我們同意讓我們HPV疫苗納入男生施打，尤其他有一個施打的精華時間，就是國中這段時間。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們趕快去爭取這個精華時間，院長，你同意全面來施打對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會研議啦！因為這個包括說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：研議就是同意嘛，院長已經這麼說啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：因為它會有範圍的界定，還有就是預算……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我希望在520之前，院長，你有了這個成效，幫助我們所有的家長，讓我們的孩子健康好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好啦！我想一下……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我聽到你說「好」。"],["陳院長建仁：那個研議的意思是說，你是只打13歲，或者你要13到18歲都打？這個有相關的考量……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，那我們就一個原則，也就是同意男生施打，至於方案，請部長這邊儘快研議方案，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：我們請他儘快研議，如果可以的話，我們就來推動。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝，我們務必在520之前把政策拿出來好不好？這個才是我們要的，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：如果預算要編的話要編到明年。"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你請回。接下來本席要請教，淨零碳排這個問題是全球顯學，2022年我們才公布2050年我們的路線、策略等等，我們要怎麼跟國際接軌？不管怎麼樣，我們還是要加油，所以我們用各種方式，包括電動機車的部分，我們也很努力在做，而且年輕人大概幾乎每3人有2臺，我們用各種方式去達到這樣的成效，我們看到去（112）年度的成效，在這四項指標當中，在電動機車的部分7.1億以及能源補充站922站、1.8億，試乘的部分補助3,500家、2.1億，維修工具建置補助4,500家、2.2億，目前的成效如何？請告訴我比例。"],["王部長美花：委員好。委員提到這個部分，我們都有在積極進行當中，相關的經費……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請告訴我比例。"],["王部長美花：比例的部分，我們是不是會後再給委員？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：成效不彰！"],["王部長美花：沒有、沒有，這個其實都……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你會後給我。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你當然要會後給我，我知道你現在答不出來。","院長，我提出這個意見，也就是一個有為的政府提出任何政策，你應該要去追蹤它的成效是怎麼樣。"],["陳院長建仁：但是你……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不好的我們趕快加油！"],["陳院長建仁：112年的目標……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好的我們要趕快思考怎麼樣去推廣。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我同意！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你認不認同這樣的觀念？對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。但是你現在要求112年目標達成的執行狀況，這個詳細的數字請給我們部長時間盤點再跟您報告，這樣比較合理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我也願意接受你這個盤點啦，你真有做得好，你知道答案啦！要把數字給本席。","接下來，113年你強化鼓勵購買電動車，現在一台是補7,000嘛！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本來是說113年不要了，我們一直說你還是要補。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：努力嘛！所以你也從善如流。"],["王部長美花：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們繼續補，但是本席希望在你鼓勵購買電動機車以及增建能源補充設施的部分，你要去加強！你要去加強！因為112年預算數以你預計的目標絕對沒有達標，所以去研議，哪裡不好的趕快去改善，好不好？"],["王部長美花：沒有問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定要趕快去努力。年輕的孩子我們鼓勵他騎電動車，但是他要修車沒有地方、他要加電池沒有地方，這樣子對我們年輕人來講是不公平的，對於社會的淨零碳排也不公平，好不好？我提出這個議題，我會繼續追蹤，請你把數字以及你改善的方案給本席。"],["王部長美花：沒有問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是沒有問題，你要努力去做。","來，院長，電價要漲，人心惶惶！昨天我們跟部長在經濟委員會，我也感謝藍、綠、白的委員全力支持現階段330度以下民生用電不能漲。院長，部長有沒有告訴你下個月要漲價？有沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：下個月我們會開電價審議委員會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個月要開啦！"],["陳院長建仁：喔，這個月要開，抱歉！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：下個月要宣布，所以我好緊張。"],["陳院長建仁：不會啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會漲嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不會，我想說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不會漲喔？"],["陳院長建仁：不是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是？"],["陳院長建仁：你不用緊張。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我不用緊張？"],["陳院長建仁：我們在所有的電費調整過程當中都會按照一定的計畫，會考慮到民生……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼計畫？"],["陳院長建仁：就是一定的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長沒告訴你嗎？平均漲幅10%，創下歷史新高，從來沒有330度以下的……"],["王部長美花：我們都還沒有審。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你聽我講，我好緊張！我的夜市怎麼辦？"],["陳院長建仁：免緊張啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：330度以下還要漲，會漲嗎？會不會漲？"],["陳院長建仁：這要讓電價審議委員會來看看它的公平性。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的主張，330度以下……"],["陳院長建仁：不要緊張。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不要漲好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：不要緊張。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我好緊張，怎麼不緊張？"],["陳院長建仁：我們會很精細地做相關的調整，而這個相關的調整……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，時間到了，中旬、下旬就要開了，他們送出來的資料就是要漲，330度的民生用電要漲，你知道這個訊息嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：審議委員會還沒有做決定之前就不是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你知道經濟部送給審議委員會的方案嗎？部長有沒有告訴你？"],["陳院長建仁：它有很多種不同……"],["王部長美花：院長不會知道方案。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不知道，難怪你不會緊張啊！我知道方案，我很緊張啊！"],["王部長美花：那是大原則……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：昨天部長說330度以下要漲，而且還漲5%，他還跟我說物價要漲34塊。"],["王部長美花：昨天是委員問我……"],["陳院長建仁：那是比例啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，你應該跟我一樣緊張，因為你現在知道了，說「世上苦人多」的院長在那裡，他是這句話的原創人。所以，拜託，我深深的拜託你，我拜託你，因為我們在基層，我們知道民生非常的痛苦，薪資沒漲，通膨得很嚴重，你一漲連330度的民生都漲，你知道嗎？你影響的產業會有多少？你的配套做好了沒有？請教院長，如果真如經濟部所送出來給審議委員會的，你知道嗎？你有將配套做好嗎？請做說明。"],["陳院長建仁：我們有相關的配套，當然有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都你們說得準，我們說得都不準。"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才講過，我們會很精準地調整，而且會考慮到……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼精準？我拜託你，330度以下，我求你好不好？不能漲！現階段不能漲啊！你到我們夜市去看看啦！沒什麼人了。"],["王部長美花：沒有、沒有，夜市其實在去年都創新高。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：薪資不漲，你還笑得出來？"],["王部長美花：沒有……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，夜市……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：人民痛苦得不得了，你們還笑得出來？"],["王部長美花：國內的內需都有數據。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：昨天我跟部長說，部長還笑，我說你不要笑，我們已經很痛苦了。"],["陳院長建仁：我們很慎重的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：已經告訴我要漲多少了。"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請說明。"],["陳院長建仁：我要在這裡很慎重地講，電費的調整一定會考慮到民生物資的需要，然後我們會考慮到使物價也能夠不受到很大的影響，並且在不同的產業……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我歡喜聽到。"],["陳院長建仁：不同的產業，我們會按照產業現在的狀況，看是比較強勢的產業還是弱勢的產業，也做不同的、更細緻的調整，所有的調整過程都會考慮到這一些重點。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你都會考慮到？謝謝院長你的回答。我們的國發會主委，前天我邀請他來做業務報告，談到電價漲的三大原則，穩定物價，你贊同吧？"],["陳院長建仁：贊成啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：照顧民生，你贊同吧？"],["陳院長建仁：贊成。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：兼顧產業，你贊同吧？"],["陳院長建仁：贊成。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就這三個原則。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以拜託。"],["陳院長建仁：我們就是按照這三個原則來調嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以都按照這三個原則，好不容易行政院統一版本，在這樣的情況之下，我還是深刻的、非常誠意的拜託院長，330度以下的民生用電現階段不能漲，你可不可以答應我？"],["陳院長建仁：我一向尊重專業，需要用專業的評估才能夠知道多少，所以為什麼講電價審議委員會，而且電價審議委員會這樣的機制也是行之多年……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，院長，所以本席要求……"],["陳院長建仁：當我們拒絕專業，只看個人的喜好來訂定電價是不合適的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒關係，本席具體要求，這個議題我們有兩個結論，第一個，本席代表民意要求，民生用電330度以下請現階段不可漲；第二個，你要漲的任何的相關產業，你的配套措施必須要拿出來，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：第一件事情我不能夠答應，因為這個就是要尊重電價審議委員會，你不尊重專業，憑個人的想法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這是院長的答復，我有權力要求，你有權力怎麼做，但是拜託以民生為主，好不好？謝謝。你們兩位請回。"],["陳院長建仁：一向就是會照顧民生啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席再請教，院長，個人幣商如果成為詐團的人頭，目前是無法可管，所以我給這個功課，因為3月1號開始針對防堵銀行人頭戶的洗錢防制法新規定上路了，這個我們非常的歡喜，但是對於個人幣商成為詐團人頭的部分，目前還是無解，所以我具體要求，因為詐騙集團如果是以加密貨幣的錢包方式攜帶贓款出去，我們也沒法可管。你頻頻點頭，我也感謝，所以我要拜託金管會，你們要趕快去研擬，關務署、法務部、金管會針對個人幣的部分，是不是納入我們洗錢防制法裡頭？請說明。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員跟您報告，有一家個人幣商被檢舉沒有申報洗錢防制，證期局罰了罰款了，所以不是沒有法可管，當然洗防法或未來相關的法規是不是納入……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：它有法，可是洗防法沒有啊！他如果用這樣子的高價，然後帶出去，你怎麼辦呢？"],["陳院長建仁：有罰責。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們再去研議，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，我們會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：相關三個部會，院長在這裡，你的關務署、你的法務部、你的財政部、你的金管會，都要去研議方案，好不好？研議方案給本席，謝謝。","接下來本席要請教警務人員的身心健康，他是守護人民的保母，院長，你要非常有仁心仁術啊！我看到數字要流淚，2014年到2023年，我們有52位警員自殺，我們又看到2016年的數字是最多的，我們又看到20歲到29歲占最多，這都是父母的心肝寶貝，要培養出一個這麼優秀的員警，20歲到29歲最多。我們又看到自殺的部分，20歲到29歲我說最多是什麼？三成三，40到49歲這個兩成五，在這樣的情況之下，22個員警在近4年自殺，我們有列冊的只有5個，所以本席具體要求，我們應該要提高警務人員高風險對象識別的能力，針對於心理輔導的這個預算，你應該要編給站你旁邊的部長，對不對？你要馬兒跑，你必須要馬兒有草吃啊！今天22個員警自殺，只有5個有列冊輔導過，怎麼辦？我很難過。"],["陳院長建仁：我也是很難過啦，看到這樣的資訊，我相當的痛心。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你要不要增加他們心理諮商的預算？"],["陳院長建仁：所以我想我們確實需要有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：需要？請部長、院長，我說他是很仁心仁術的人……"],["陳院長建仁：我們持續……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：用數字質化、量化告訴我們問題點在哪裡。"],["陳院長建仁：實際上我們去年這方面的預算已經有增加，但是我們會繼續精進來落實自殺的防治。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：精進、增加，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長、院長全力支持，我們一起來讓我們的員警能夠放心，讓他的家屬能夠放心，對不對？22個自殺，只有5個是列冊輔導，所以我們做得還不夠，我們還有漏洞，當然努力了，但是還要精進。所以首先預算要給他們增加，好不好？心理諮商、心理輔導的部分，院長你答應……"],["陳院長建仁：我們來看看他們的需求……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們提列出來，好不好？部長？"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["陳院長建仁：我們看看需求來編列。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你提列出來，把需求拿出來。"],["林部長右昌：是，院長一直相當支持……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們好不容易培養的警務人員，我們要讓他放心、安心，好不好？我們一起加油，讓我們臺灣的社會能夠安全，這是我們要的嘛！好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：以上剛剛本席所建議的以及需要的資料，請詳實給本席，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員瓊瓔的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第51號林委員淑芬質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃健豪","沈發惠","柯志恩","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","王育敏","張宏陸","陳菁徽","羅美玲","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":24,"meetingDate":["2024-03-08"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00002","1130601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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院長你一直點頭,謝謝。接下來我們,部長你請回,我們再來請唐鳳部長。"},{"start":334.327,"end":357.515,"text":"委員長,我們數位部從111年的8月份成立,到現在大概一年半的時間。 是。那麼很多人在質疑你的成效,本席也不願意質疑,我們希望看到有成效。但是呢,在這裡我們要請問,現在數位部的辦公室打算預計是怎麼回事呢?現在我們是用租的嘛,是不是?"},{"start":358.643,"end":369.588,"text":"跟委員報告,我們是有一個辦公室是租的,然後一個是我們自己的。我們自己的在延平,然後租的是在行政院附近。在行政院附近一定要多少租金啊?"},{"start":370.55,"end":381.192,"text":"大概5年之後會到行政院旁邊的行一行二的這個地方變成一個永久的地方那在前一年半應該是大概7000萬左右一年半還是一年要講清楚因為我們是從那個2022年一年半7000萬是嗎"},{"start":399.658,"end":413.175,"text":"一年半不是一年一年半7000萬接下來有人在質疑您要中央的國有財產署把南門中紀市場的用地要收回"},{"start":414.913,"end":441.235,"text":"我們1月就已經確定沒有這件事,因為臺北市政府已經不要了嘛,不使用了,所以就...而且我們也不是到華光,我們是到行政院旁邊的行一行二。1.7億蓋的南門中紀市場拆除,花,這個1.7億現在拆除,那傳聞是因為部長您要這一塊土地自己來蓋大樓,有沒有這回事?"},{"start":442.591,"end":444.276,"text":"有沒有這回事請教。"},{"start":451.144,"end":459.846,"text":"你有沒有要這一塊地?你沒有要這一塊地?那為什麼會有公文說你要這一塊地?而且台北市政府數次給國有財產訴說讓我們延續繼續不要拆掉我們1.7億所蓋的中紀市場,南美市場呢?"},{"start":473.05,"end":487.944,"text":"在去年的時候國有財產署確實有來調查我們的意願。但是調查完之後到今年1月我們已經受到行政院的一個很明確的指示說我們不是去華光而是到行政院。我是行政院的指示本席是要請教你有沒有要這一塊地。"},{"start":490.125,"end":490.905,"text":"為什麼要拆掉這個市場呢?"},{"start":509.673,"end":529.101,"text":"對,這台北市政府不要,所以我們本來喔,本來台北市政府在上次上個會期的時候,謝謝院長,部長你上來你是不是要說明,現在唐鳳部長說是你們問他們,那他說你給什麼地他就要什麼地,但是外界傳聞本席不希望有任何的矛盾點,他說"},{"start":530.422,"end":550.976,"text":"他是如此說但是外界不是是說唐鳳部長要求我要這塊地所以你要拆掉這個市場有沒有這回事跟委員報告那一塊土地是國有的土地然後是出租給臺北市我沒有這回事請做說明出租給臺北市那他作為南門市場的中繼市場那現在南門市場已經蓋完了他已經蓋完了那是要搬回去了"},{"start":552.837,"end":568.482,"text":"那這塊土地本來當時就是臺北市政府跟國有財產署租的嘛那租期也滿了他不要用的時候就當然要還了他要申請延續你們不准沒有他這個完全沒有他本來有上次這個"},{"start":570.833,"end":598.764,"text":"林長佐委員有在這裏大院這裏提到說希望他們能夠作為東門市場的中繼市場因為東門市場要整修後來他們沒有這個想法說不他們自己不要他們就自動把土地還給我們了所以這個我覺得好奇怪的議題本席一直在強調你說好奇怪我也覺得好奇怪所以本席一直認為說我們不希望社會有矛盾點大家說明清楚"},{"start":599.104,"end":599.704,"text":"我、我想"},{"start":625.402,"end":646.158,"text":"行一行二是一個聯合的就是很多個部會一起使用的地方那我們一向跟國產署都是說我們現在是租新光那國產署任何時候指定給我們說我們去哪裡我們就不用再租新光我們一直是這個例子沒有說指定要去哪裡的因為他現在租約是這個一年半"},{"start":649.56,"end":672.079,"text":"你一年半後會給他新的大樓嗎?不是新的大樓,是那塊土地,因為行一行二是整個我們在國有土地區那塊要蓋到什麼時候呢?他是行政區適合蓋辦公大樓,然後調配他沒有自有辦公廳設的機關去那邊蓋。好,所以院長,那這一塊地要多久時間可以給數位部自己的辦公大樓呢?"},{"start":674.064,"end":699.797,"text":"數位部的報告剛才已經講得很清楚就是行政院會做通盤的考量那如果行政院 什麼時候呢因為他現在租啊他現在租一年半要7000萬啊沒有啊如果什麼時候 如果這個來不及的話 那就需要租用嘛這個我們要看我們通盤的規劃因為不是只有給數位部啦沒關係現在我們討論你是要繼續一直住下去還是希望你自己有大樓"},{"start":700.097,"end":720.171,"text":"我剛才有說了,任何時候國有財產署告訴我們說有哪個地方我們可以去,我們就那個時候就會再提出來。好,那院長他什麼時候可以去?那就要看我剛才講過啦,就是行一行二的那個大樓啊。什麼時候蓋好啊?有在規劃?有在規劃?要規劃多久?這個要看規劃的時間。會嗎?多久?七年會嗎?不會啦。要幾年?我想這個要看規劃的時間。沒有七年要幾年?"},{"start":730.567,"end":732.37,"text":"院長,本期要跟你討論一個HPV疫苗的問題。"},{"start":746.377,"end":768.932,"text":"因為孩子是我們的寶貝,您是公衛專家,我給你稱一個讚。您是第一位說HPV疫苗的公衛專家,您說了,您是第一位呼籲要男女共同一起,不要做半套。我們本身好不容易,因為現在少子化,每一個孩子都是國家的寶貝,更是父母的寶貝。"},{"start":769.913,"end":795.549,"text":"所以我來請求你我來拜託你在這幾年來我一直關注這樣的議題要讓孩子健康所以終於談判了讓女生我們的國中女生都施打了當時告訴我們說沒關係我們先從女生我也願意我也感謝那如果說女生有達到九成那我們就來考慮男生給院長報告換我給你報告說明我們已經達到九成多"},{"start":796.149,"end":823.867,"text":"你是公衛專家所以我今天務必要跟你討論這個問題因為我們看到美國30年來HPV的頭頸奶從16.3%增加到70%好恐怖耶這都是我們的寶貝耶日本10年來從45%提升到52%我們台灣現在30%因為口咽癌所以本席一直很難過的看到這個數字每一年增加的是6.9%"},{"start":825.865,"end":826.586,"text":"當然要領先嘛"},{"start":847.697,"end":855.925,"text":"你說要領先?當然要領先嘛對不對?我們看到美國70%日本帳我們每一年6.9%我都好緊張所以全國家長沒關係你不要那個70%是不好的領先我們要領先聯盟"},{"start":864.273,"end":887.294,"text":"議事長他自己本身也得到了他才充分知道說預防是多麼的重要而且他是全國家長協會的總會長所以在之前我們跨黨派藍綠白大家一起記者會公佈說我們已經達到了九成我們務必希望男生要做我們也做了一個統計我們也做了一個統計喔也就是"},{"start":889.11,"end":894.063,"text":"如果國中生來施打這個疫苗只要大概2.5億的經費"},{"start":895.998,"end":896.178,"text":"世界衛生組織"},{"start":922.449,"end":923.189,"text":"新總統準總統賴清德也喊出了投資未來世代"},{"start":937.947,"end":959.334,"text":"我相信防癌疫苗就是對我們投資年輕人的這個健康非常非常的重要所以我在這邊來拜託院長我希望我們之前所努力的已經達成成功女生已經是這個九成以上了而且我們成效也看到可以節省很多我們的資源"},{"start":959.974,"end":960.014,"text":"請教院長。"},{"start":985.455,"end":1007.631,"text":"好,委員你講得很好你是真的是公共衛生的專家也是預防醫學的專家那我現在要跟你回應的就是說我個人本身也是覺得應該男女都接種HPV的疫苗那在台灣呢實際上跟HPV比較有關係的口咽的部分的癌症是口咽癌啦不是口腔癌比較少口咽癌"},{"start":1008.912,"end":1028.349,"text":"所以在這個部分的話我們已經有請這個衛福部在研議那如果我們在現在盤算經費可以的話我們當然很樂意作為亞洲領先的國家因為我要問這個之前我也做功課我也特別跟薛部長我很讚許他他對於預防的部分他很支持"},{"start":1028.929,"end":1047.194,"text":"而且真的可以讓我們家長可以安心所以在院長你的答覆也就是我們同意讓我們HPV的疫苗的施打男生尤其他有一個精華時間打就國中時間我們趕快去爭取這個精華時間你同意全面來施打對不對我們會研議啦因為這個包括研議就是同意嘛"},{"start":1054.38,"end":1056.342,"text":"我希望在520之前,院長你有了這個成效,幫助我們所有的家長"},{"start":1067.649,"end":1090.937,"text":"讓我們的孩子健康,好嗎?院長。好啦,我想一下,那個研議的意思是說,你是要只打一個13歲,或者你要13到18歲都打。好,那我們一個原則也就是同意男生私打,那質疑方案請部長這邊盡快研議方案,好不好?我們請他盡快研議,如果可以的話我們就來推動。我們務必在520之前把政策拿出來,好不好?這個才是我們要的,謝謝。預算要編號明年。"},{"start":1094.817,"end":1112.291,"text":"接下來本席要請教你請回金鈴攤牌的這個問題是全球的這個選學裡頭2022年我們才公布2050年我們的路線策略等等那我們要怎麼跟台灣接軌不管怎麼樣我們還是要加油所以"},{"start":1113.012,"end":1132.056,"text":"國會議員"},{"start":1132.156,"end":1155.224,"text":"我們的成效在這四項的指標當中請說明我們在電動機車的部分7.1億以及你能源補充站922站1.8億你試乘的部分補助3500家的2.1億你的維修工具建置4500家2.2億現在目前的成效如何請告訴我比例"},{"start":1156.645,"end":1183.828,"text":"委員吼那因為委員提這個我們這個都有在積極進行當中那相關的你告訴我比例比例的部分我們是不是會後再給委員成效不彰沒有沒有這個其實都用的你當然要會後給我我知道你現在打不出來院長我提出這個意見也就是一個有違的政府你任何的政策提出你應該要去追蹤他的成效是怎麼樣不好的我們趕快加加就好"},{"start":1183.988,"end":1185.789,"text":"我也願意接受你這個盤點啦,你真有做得好,你知道答案啦。"},{"start":1204.934,"end":1226.605,"text":"接下來要把數字給本席113年你強化鼓勵購買電動車現在一台是保七千本來是說113年不來我們一直說你還是要努力所以一定也從善如流我們繼續補但是本席希望在你鼓勵購買電動機車以及增建能源補充設施的部分你要去加強"},{"start":1227.725,"end":1247.212,"text":"你要去加強,因為112年絕對沒有你預算數以及你預計的這個達標,所以去研議,哪裡不好的趕快去改善好不好?一定要趕快去努力,因為我們不希望年輕的孩子我們鼓勵他騎電動車,但是呢他要修車沒有地方"},{"start":1247.772,"end":1247.932,"text":"昨天我們跟"},{"start":1271.03,"end":1283.189,"text":"部長在經濟委員會唯一感謝藍綠白的委員全力的支持現階段330度以下民生不能漲院長部長有沒有告訴你下個月要漲價"},{"start":1284.886,"end":1309.097,"text":"呃,下個月我們會開電價審議委員會。 這個月要開啦。 喔,這個月要開,抱歉。 下個月要宣布說我好緊張欸。 對,不會啦。 因為... 不會,我想說... 不是,你不用緊張。 那... 我們在所有的電話、電費調整的過程當中都會按照一定的計畫會考慮到民生... 就是一定的... 署長沒告訴你嗎?"},{"start":1310.217,"end":1317.024,"text":"平均漲幅10%欸,創價歷史新高欸,從來沒有330度以下的還要...你聽我一起講,我好緊張,我的夜市怎麼辦了,330度以下還要漲,會漲嗎?會不會漲?"},{"start":1329.239,"end":1335.966,"text":"這要讓電價審議委員會來看看他的公平訊。 不要緊張,我們會很精細的來做相關的這個調整。 時間到了,中旬下旬就要開了,他們送出來的資料就是要漲,330度的民生用電要漲。"},{"start":1351.121,"end":1365.447,"text":"你知道這個訊息嗎?你知道經濟部送給審議委員會的方案嗎?部長還沒告訴你?院長不會知道方案。對,我會知道。難怪你不會緊張啊。我知道方案我很緊張啊。昨天部長說330度以下要轉。"},{"start":1370.968,"end":1371.388,"text":"昨天是委員：楊瓔"},{"start":1388.302,"end":1415.965,"text":"所以拜託我深深的拜託你我拜託你我因為我們在基層我們知道民生非常的痛苦薪資沒漲通膨的很嚴重你要一漲連330度的民生都漲你知道嗎你影響的產業會多少你的配套做好了沒有請教院長如果真如經濟部所送出來給審議委員會的你知道嗎你有將配套做好嗎請做說明"},{"start":1416.84,"end":1434.258,"text":"我們有相關的配套當然有而且很多的我剛才講過我們會很精準的來調整而且會考慮到才我拜託你330度以下我給你求好不好不能漲現階段不能漲啊你到我們夜市去看看啦"},{"start":1439.292,"end":1446.398,"text":"昨天我給部長,部長還笑,我說你不要笑!我們已經很痛苦了!你已經告訴我要漲多少了!"},{"start":1462.673,"end":1479.062,"text":"我可以回答嗎?我要在這裡很慎重地講,電費的調整一定會考慮到民生物資的需要,然後會考慮到使得物價也能夠不受到很大的影響,並且在不同的產業"},{"start":1480.223,"end":1483.364,"text":"你都會考慮到,謝謝院長你的回答我們的這個國防會主委在前前天我邀請他來做業務報告的時候電價漲的三大原則"},{"start":1507.974,"end":1509.836,"text":"穩定物價,你贊同吧?"},{"start":1509.836,"end":1512.097,"text":"贊成啊照顧民生,你贊同吧?"},{"start":1512.097,"end":1514.139,"text":"贊成兼顧產業,你贊同吧?"},{"start":1514.139,"end":1515.26,"text":"贊成就這三個原則?"},{"start":1515.26,"end":1518.362,"text":"對啊,我們就是按照這三個原則來挑嗎?"},{"start":1518.362,"end":1535.355,"text":"按照這三個原則,都說好不容易行政院統一版本所以在這樣的一個情況之下,330度以下我還是深刻的、非常誠意的拜託院長,330度以下的民生用電現階段不得漲,你可不可以答應我?"},{"start":1536.24,"end":1554.648,"text":"我一向尊重專業然後需要用專業的評估才能夠知道多少所以為什麼講電價審議委員會而且電價審議委員會這樣的機制也是行之多年當我們拒絕了專業只看個人的喜好來訂定電價是不合適的"},{"start":1556.349,"end":1574.98,"text":"本席具體要求這個議題我們有兩個結論第一個本席要求代表民意民生用電330度以下請限階段不可漲第二個你要漲的任何的相關的產業你的配套措施必須要拿出來好不好第一件事情我不能夠答應"},{"start":1576.54,"end":1588.131,"text":"因為這個就是要尊重電駕審議委員會,你不尊重專業,您個人就相反。我,我有權利要求,你有權利怎麼做,但是拜託以民生為主,好不好?謝謝,你們兩位請回。本席再請教。"},{"start":1593.539,"end":1618.576,"text":"個人弊傷呢,如果成為詐團的人頭呢,那這個目前是無法可管。 所以我給這個功課,我給這個功課。因為3月1號開始針對防堵銀行人頭戶的洗錢防治法新規定上路了。 這個我們非常的歡喜。但是如果對於個人弊傷的成為詐團人頭的部分呢,目前還是無解。 所以我具體要求,具體要求。"},{"start":1619.597,"end":1646.687,"text":"那麼因為詐騙集團如果是以加幣貨幣的錢包方式攜帶出去張款出去那我們也沒法可管你拼命點頭我也感謝所以我要拜託金管會這一邊你們要趕快去研議針對於關務署法務部金管會針對於這個個人幣的部分是不是納入在我們洗錢防治法裡頭請做說明"},{"start":1647.287,"end":1664.397,"text":"委員跟您報告有一家個人幣商被檢舉,他沒有申報洗錢房子,政局罰款了,所以不是沒有法可管,那當然洗房法或未來相關的法規是不是納入﹖那有法可是洗船法沒有啊﹖他如果用這樣子的高價然後帶出去你怎麼辦呢﹖有罰則﹖你們再去研議好不好﹖"},{"start":1667.158,"end":1688.928,"text":"關於這三個部份,院長在這裏,你的官務署,你的法務部,你的財政部,你的金管會都要去研議方案,好不好?研議方案給本席,謝謝。接下來本席要請教警務人員的身心健康。守護人民的保姆院長,你非常人心人數啊。我看到數字要流淚,2014年到2023年,我們有52位警員自殺。"},{"start":1694.96,"end":1706.649,"text":"我們又看到2016年數字是最多。我們又看到20歲到29歲呢是占最多。這都是北部的心肝寶貝捏。要培養出一個遠景這麼優秀。20歲到29歲是最多。"},{"start":1713.066,"end":1737.259,"text":"我們又看到自殺的部分呢20到29歲我說最多什麼3乘340到49歲這個2乘5在這樣的情況之下22個員警在近4年自殺的我們有列冊的只有5個所以本期具體要求我們應該要提高警務人員高風險對象識別的能力"},{"start":1739.147,"end":1754.934,"text":"那麼,針對於心理輔導的這個預算,你應該編給你旁邊站的部長。 對不對,你要馬兒跑,你必須要馬兒游草吃啊。你今天22個員警自殺,只有5個有列車輔導過,怎麼辦?我很難過。"},{"start":1760.992,"end":1773.147,"text":"所以你要不要去增加他們的心理智商的預算?需要!請部長、院長,我說他是很人心人數的人用數字直話亮話告訴我們問題點在哪裡?"},{"start":1776.021,"end":1793.488,"text":"我們去年實際上這方面的預算已經有增加,但是我們會繼續來精進,來落實這個自殺的防止。好不好?部長,院長全力支持,我們一起來讓我們的員警他能夠放心,讓他的家屬能夠放心。對不對?22個自殺,只有5個是列車輔導。"},{"start":1797.47,"end":1810.635,"text":"所以我們做的還不夠我們還有勞動當然努力了但是還有精進的所以首先預算要給他們增加好不好心理諮商心理輔導的部分"},{"start":1811.881,"end":1812.742,"text":"我們來看看他們的需求"}]}},{"id":"149603","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149603","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e7383c0ce4a703cc643519c25cbe3c73d230da91660cc9cbf8ba9b0039caa7a6ea5380e059a3204e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"11:43:25 - 11:59:38","影片長度":"00:16:13","會議時間":"2024-03-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-08","duration":973,"end_time":"2024-03-08T11:59:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-08T11:43:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":956,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（11時43分）謝謝主席，麻煩請院長還有財政部、原民會。"],["主席：麻煩請院長備詢，也請財政部跟原民會兩位首長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：陳委員早，恭喜你當選連任，也祝你婦女節快樂。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝，謝謝院長。我今天要跟您討論的問題是我在這邊質詢的第3次了，在每一次會期很短的總質詢時間內，我都要來拜託院長同一件事情，那您就會知道這件事情有多麼重要。","政府在歸還原住民土地政策上有不斷在加速，但是院長，因為政府的規定限制原保地的流通性，導致土地還給原住民之後，我們原住民拿到土地卻只是空有土地而已，因為銀行根本就不接受原保地作為擔保品。原住民的長輩們在自己的兒女要成家立業的過程當中，他們可能會想要買房子，而且可能要創業，在他們需要貸款的時候，長輩想要幫幫自己的兒女，或者是年輕人自己很努力，想要買房子，但是土地拿到銀行的時候，卻完全貸不到錢。剛剛有特別講到，因為年輕人買房子，在信用跟財力的評估上，可能就是差那麼一點點的擔保品就可以順利把貸款貸下來了，但是家裡長輩空有那一塊土地，卻完全幫不上忙。也有一些長輩，因為部落的房子老舊了需要裝修，本來想要拿原保地到銀行貸點錢來修繕，但是原保地在銀行貸不到錢，最後還是要向兒女或者親戚朋友求助。或許原民會會回復說原民會有修繕補助，但是這個修繕補助的經費是有限制的，名額上也是有限制。","關於原保地授信貸款這件事，我已經協調了2年，我們一直都還是在原地踏步，沒有比較好的進展。過去原民會也不斷聲稱，原民會已經實施許多政策貸款的計畫，透過銀行的受理，例如微笑貸款、創業貸款、經濟事業貸款等等，而且可以接受原保地為擔保品。但其實原民會大部分的計畫，放款資金都是來自於原民會，然後再由銀行辦理借出。所以如果今天的資金是來自銀行的話，銀行一定不會接受原保地作為擔保品，而且原民會所辦理的貸款項目不可能像銀行一樣全面化。光是房屋貸款，原民會就沒有辦法辦理了，而且後來這個也停止了，在沒有去推動原住民金庫或原住民銀行的前提之下，我又繼續努力討論讓原保地貸款成為有利擔保品這件事。","當然，我今天先把你們可能回復我的狀況講給你們聽，你們或許會講這個可以找農會，但是事實上只有部分、幾間、少數的農會會接受原保地的貸款，大部分的農會是不會接受的。","再來還有一個，你們可能會說我們還有原住民族儲蓄互助社可以接受原保地的貸款，但事實上，雖然這個互助社可以接受原保地的授信貸款，可是互助社畢竟不是一個金融機關，所以可以貸款的項目，僅僅只是限制在信用貸款的部分，如果族人需要申請房貸的話，互助社是沒有辦法辦理的。我講了這麼多，我們也討論了這麼久，到現在還是窒礙難行。原住民保留地在金融市場遇到什麼問題？我想來想去，我就只有想到一件事情，而且它是事實，最貼切的形容，就是我們原住民保留地在金融市場上，它是被歧視的，我只能這樣想。","原住民授信貸款這件事情，在我最近一次的協調中，有機會推動的模式就是由其中一間公股銀行來承接，而且我希望它是臺銀，由臺銀來承接，讓臺銀在辦理所有的貸款業務上，把這個有價值的原保地作為債權確保的擔保品，而且在原保地鑑價之後的價值，由原民會綜合發展基金，還有其他的信保基金共同來保證，現在我們就差臨門一腳，也需要院長還有部長及主委的支持。所以今天我在這邊再一次特別拜託，也希望這件事可以由財政部來主責，然後讓原民會和信保基金來配合。院長，我們花了這麼多心力推動、溝通這件事，希望這次能有善意回應。"],["陳院長建仁：我知道委員在這件事情上很用心，也希望順利安排原保地向銀行申請貸款這件事，謝謝委員幫很多原鄉同胞爭取。我知道財政部與原民會已經跟委員就這件事情溝通協調，是不是請他們用很短的時間再來報告一下？"],["陳委員瑩：我想聽聽財政部長的說法。"],["陳院長建仁：來，聽聽看。"],["莊部長翠雲：有關原住民保留地作為抵押貸款一事，我想委員也很清楚。第一，因為它的承受者只限於原住民，所以在流通上就有限制，如果要實行抵押權時，銀行也沒有辦法取得原保地的所有權，所以事實上擔保是比較難做的。委員也一直努力，希望由剛剛提到的綜合發展基金或其他信用保證基金承擔最後的授信風險。如果這部分可以做，且原民會可以提出相關的保證作業準則時，我們再跟公股銀行進一步評估，讓這件事可以往前推動。"],["陳委員瑩：請問主委，原民會提出這樣的準則有沒有困難？還是你也願意朝這方向去配合？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，的確，過去原住民族保留地的移轉長期限制原住民，所以會遇到貸款問題，這部分我們未來會再跟財政部及公股銀行討論，看怎麼樣透過完整的配套，包括授信專案的可行性做後續處理。"],["陳委員瑩：我很高興今天沒有提到我前面已經先講出的推卸理由。我希望可以把時間押在3個月，讓你們可以把這樣的方向、準則在3個月內提出並完成，可以嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們努力。"],["陳委員瑩：努力？我定3個月，可以嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們會跟財政部一起努力，看能不能達成目標。"],["陳委員瑩：我們就先定3個月的期限，也請你們加油。部長先請回。","接下來我想要討論的是族語問題。大家都很清楚，母語如果斷了，那我們文化也就滅了，所以語言是文化的靈魂，語言對於文化的傳承是相當重要的！在原住民族語言式微的這個年代裡，我們通過了國家語言發展法及原住民族語言發展法，特別是夷將主委在多年任內，最了不起，也在歷史上寫下重要的一頁，就是推動原住民族語言的復興與發展，你真的是不遺餘力。","在推動語言學習的過程當中，我們遇到很多困難，其中一個很大的問題就是目前族語老師的師資嚴重不足！我們需要一個強大的學習工具來學習。像都會區的學校很難找到族語老師；就算找到族語老師，有可能布農族的學生找到的卻是阿美族的族語老師。所以語言建置、維護、族語查詢的網站──族語E樂園……去年選舉時，我提出一項政見，希望建置AI的族語學習系統。目前原民會已經進行一項計畫，就是族語AI翻譯計畫，未來系統完成建置之後，可以透過語言進行翻譯，但我覺得還不夠！在我進入接下來的質詢前，我先解釋一下這個名詞。要把AI導入族語學習，而AI分成生成式AI和分辨式AI，其中分辨式AI就是在現有的數據或內容中提取資訊，協助判斷；至於生成式AI，是一種可以創造新的內容、想法的人工智慧，包括創造對話、故事、影像、視訊和音樂等等。","主委，這個是現在大家在討論的生成式AI的語言學習系統，它建置了大量語言資料庫之後，可以透過電腦系統的判別，跟使用者互相對話，不過我們現在看到的是一個英文的對話。我們來看一下原住民的部分，我們原住民目前法定有16族，總共有42種語別，語料的蒐集跟建置當然是相對的複雜跟麻煩。目前原語會進行建置的語音翻譯功能跟這個英文的學習工具，在發展上跟技術上，我們其實還是落後非常多的，所以我希望可以推動生成式AI的族語學習對話系統，它是可以協助我們學習族語過程中的聽跟說的系統，減輕大家的學習壓力。特別是現在很多家中如果沒有會講族語的長輩，沒有那個環境，學校又請不到學生所需要的族別的族語老師，那我們都可以透過這套系統來解決，而且這樣的學習，人手一機的話，不分年齡、不分地點都可以來學習族語，也可以做永久的紀錄。甚至我們原住民長者到醫院的時候，這套系統應用在看病上也是非常方便的，醫生可以了解長者哪裡不舒服，長者也可以充分理解醫師交代的是什麼，所以我今天提出這樣建議，不知道各位的想法如何？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得這是很創新的想法，而且也有它的可行性，現在在生成式AI的部分，國科會也相當積極在推動，我是不是請吳主委簡單的回應一下，讓夷將主委聽聽看，也許兩邊可以合作。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝委員的提醒，事實上生成式人工智慧對於各種語言的認識應該是有它的特點，從去年開始，在院長的支持之下，我們已經做了TAIDE，我們叫做可信任的人工智慧對話引擎，它可以寫文章、可以翻譯，whatever。事實上原民會在人工智慧的應用，剛剛委員有提到，我們已經有在做翻譯了，未來我們這個TAIDE的引擎在4月應該會公開，我們國科會也會協助原民會，事實上那個引擎是一個base，如果要用到原民這邊的話，我們可以持續在上面再做一些訓練，應該就可以使用了，我想國科會跟原民會會來配合。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：首先謝謝委員對原民會過去推動族語的成果肯定，的確目前原語會推動的是分辨式AI的部分，未來我們會跟國科會針對生成式的部分，看怎麼樣讓我們的語言做更好的傳承，這個我們來努力。"],["陳委員瑩：好，在這裡特別拜託，其實我的心很大，我甚至還希望可以運用元宇宙的技術，讓我們未來的對話不是一個冰冷的機器，而是可以看到過去的長者活生生地站在我們面前跟我們對話。謝謝。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：謝謝委員。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝，我們努力。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","報告院會，上午質詢到此為止，下午2點30分繼續開會，進行質詢。現在休息。","休息（11時59分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":23,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-08"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1130601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.25534375,"end":24.769718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.085968750000003,"end":26.625968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.60471875,"end":31.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.650343750000005,"end":37.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.00784375,"end":43.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.42909375,"end":52.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":52.056593750000005,"end":52.360343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.73159375,"end":52.782218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.93409375,"end":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有跟委員這邊在做溝通協調我是不是請他們再來報告一下很短的時間"},{"start":437.673,"end":453.682,"text":"有關原住民保留地要作為抵押貸款的事情,那我想委員也很清楚,第一個就是說因為他的承受者只限於原住民,那所以他在流通上就限制,而且銀行也沒有辦法取得,假設說他要實行抵押權的時候也沒有辦法取得這個"},{"start":454.462,"end":484.206,"text":"﹚陳瑩"},{"start":484.468,"end":512.337,"text":"那請問主委在圓明會提出這樣的準則你們有沒有困難還是你也認為說朝這個方向你們是願意去配合的?對,剛委員報告的確在過去長期原住民是保留地因為他移轉是縣市原住民所以遇到這個貸款的這個問題我想這個部分我們未來會再跟我們的財政部還有公共銀行怎麼樣透過整個完成的配套"},{"start":513.001,"end":539.302,"text":"包括那個受訓的整個專案的可行性做後續的處理我很高興今天沒有提到我前面已經先講出的這些推卸的這個理由那我想也希望是我們可以把時間就是壓在三個月你們可以把這樣的一個方向這樣的一個準則把它我們可以在三個月內來提出來完成可以嗎那我們努力"},{"start":542.847,"end":549.669,"text":"接下來呢我想要討論的是這個族語的問題大家都很清楚母語如果斷了那我們文化也就滅了"},{"start":569.974,"end":588.916,"text":"﹚陳瑩﹚"},{"start":588.916,"end":605.23,"text":"﹗"},{"start":605.72,"end":626.194,"text":"我想在這個推動語言的學習過程當中我們遇到很多的困難那其中一個很大的問題就是目前主委老師的師資嚴重不足那我們需要有一個強大的這個學習工具來學習因為像都會區的這個學校他很難找到主委老師"},{"start":626.994,"end":636.83,"text":"就算找到這個族語老師了,有可能布農族的學生找到的卻是阿美族的這個族語的老師。好,所以這個語言的建制維護,"},{"start":639.161,"end":668.26,"text":"主語查詢的網站我們看一下叫做這個主語一樂園去年在選舉的時候我有提出了一項政見就是希望建置AI的主語學習系統那圓明會目前已經進行了一個計畫就是這個主語AI翻譯計畫那未來系統完成建置之後呢它可以透過語言進行的翻譯但是我是覺得還不夠啦那我想在我進入接下來的質詢之前我先解釋一下這個名詞"},{"start":669.121,"end":670.23,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":672.257,"end":699.175,"text":"我想我們現在我覺得要把AI導入這個主語的學習那當然這個AI有分成生成式AI和分辨式AI那當然分辨式AI就是把這個現有的數據或內容中提取資訊協助判斷那這個生成式的AI是一種可以創造新的內容和想法的人工智慧包括創造對話故事影像視訊和音樂等等"},{"start":702.462,"end":728.416,"text":"各位 這個是我們現在大家在討論的生成式AI的語言學習系統那它所建置大量的語言資料庫之後呢可以透過電腦系統的判別與使用跟這個 對不起 透過這個電腦系統的判別和這個使用者互相的這個對話不過我們現在看到的它是一個英文的對話"},{"start":730.994,"end":755.915,"text":"來看一下我們原住民。 我們原住民目前法定有16族,那總共有42種的語別。 語料的搜集跟這個建制上當然是相對的複雜跟麻煩。 那目前原語會進行的這個建制的這個語音翻譯的功能, 跟這個英文的這個學習工具的發展上技術上, 我們其實還是落後非常多的。"},{"start":756.876,"end":772.506,"text":"所以我希望可以推動深層式AI的這個主語學習的對話系統那它可以協助我們學習主語過程當中的聽跟說這樣的系統那減輕大家的這個學習的這個壓力而且我"},{"start":776.971,"end":790.039,"text":"特別是如果像現在很多家中是沒有這個會講主語的這個長輩沒有那個環境那學校又請不到這個學生所需要的這個主語的"},{"start":792.68,"end":813.214,"text":"主別的這個主語的老師我們都可以透過這一套系統來解決而且這樣的學習人手一機的話不分年齡不分地點都可以來學習這個主語那也可以做一個永久的記錄所以甚至我們原住民的長者到醫院的時候這一套系統"},{"start":814.155,"end":816.218,"text":"所以我想今天提出這樣的建議不知道各位"},{"start":833.58,"end":853.796,"text":"我覺得這是很創新的想法,而且也有它的可行性。那現在在聖城市AI的這個部分,國科會也有相當的積極在推動。我是不是請吳主委簡單的回應一下,讓我們儀仗主委聽聽看,然後也許兩邊可以合作。"},{"start":854.096,"end":872.154,"text":"好,謝謝那個委員的這個提醒。事實上這個聖春市人工智慧對於各種語言的這個認識應該是有它的特點。那事實上從去年開始在院長的支持之下我們已經做了一個台德,我們叫可信任的人工智慧對話引擎。"},{"start":872.915,"end":896.848,"text":"他可以寫文章可以翻譯whatever那事實上原民會在人工智慧這邊應用剛剛這個委員有提到事實上我們已經有在做翻譯那未來事實上我們這個我們叫台德這個引擎在4月應該會公開那我們國科會這邊也會來協助這個原民會這邊事實上那個引擎是一個basic"},{"start":897.168,"end":923.421,"text":"那如果要用到雲民這邊的話我們可以持續來在上面再做一些訓練應該就可以用那我想國科會跟這個圓明會會來配合首先謝謝委員對圓明會過去推動族裔的成果的肯定那的確目前圓明會推動的是分辨式的這個AI的這個部分的整個推動那未來呢我們會跟我們國科會的針對"},{"start":924.645,"end":925.345,"text":"謝謝陳瑩委員的質詢也謝謝陳院長的備詢"},{"start":956.241,"end":959.564,"text":"報告院會上午質詢到此為止,下午2時30分繼續開會,進行質詢,現在休息。"}]}},{"id":"149602","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149602","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e7383c0ce4a703cc11d630b0268bbd12d230da91660cc9cbf8ba9b0039caa7a65291ab39dcec32fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"11:12:40 - 11:43:18","影片長度":"00:30:38","會議時間":"2024-03-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-08","duration":1838,"end_time":"2024-03-08T11:43:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-08T11:12:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":765,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（11時12分）是，謝謝韓院長，請陳院長。"],["主席：好，再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：委員早安，恭喜你當選立委而且祝你婦女節快樂。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝院長，我想今天所有在立法院裡面的女性都應該已經被祝福過、也很快樂，但是還是要提醒，我們還有很多廣大的婦女勞工朋友，不管在薪資、不管在勞動時數上面是需要我們政府共同來協助他們的，這是非常重要的。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我們會全力以赴讓婦女的工作條件還有工作環境都能夠改善。"],["柯委員志恩：是。院長，蘇丹紅的事件可以說是蔓延全臺、一發不可收拾；還有前陣子所發生的金廈水域事件，家屬是哭著回去，然後陸方的代表也說後果自負，這麼一連串的事情，可是我們的蔡總統除了接近外賓之外，目前為止我們都沒有看到他跟社會對話、也一直神隱。我想請問3月5號談判破裂之後，蔡總統、還有你、還有國安的高層有彼此對這一連串的事情做過一些討論嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：有，我們府院一向都有很密切的在討論。"],["柯委員志恩：那蔡總統講什麼？"],["陳院長建仁：實際上我們很重要的就是，對於兩岸的溝通還要繼續來加強，那金廈水域這個事件我們當然要來支持我們海巡署合法執法的過程。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝院長，最主要原因是因為蔡總統……沒關係，管主委還有邱主委，我目前為止還不需要，有需要你們的話我會請你們上臺，謝謝。我現在是跟院長做對話，因為蔡總統都不跟我們對話，我只好透過你來做一個傳話！"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：這個部分來說，顯然到目前為止整個事件看起來，我只看到我們的國防部長每天就是嚇得要死、每天是驚心膽跳，然後都睡不著。"],["陳院長建仁：我想不要誤解他的意思。"],["柯委員志恩：我瞭解，但是他是很擔心，這個態度是對的，因為他擔心萬一擦槍走火的話很多後果不堪設想，但是卻有一些的部長不斷在說我們的蔡總統好棒棒，然後他是全世界最辛苦、最難做的一個外交部長，所以部長我的重點是，每個閣員都不一樣，邱部長，沒有問題請你回座，我還是跟院長來做一個對話，謝謝大家，非常謝謝。","我只是要強調到目前為止，距離520還有74天的時間，很多人都已經做好不同的心態，我想請問院長，因為你是蔡總統的第一任副總統，你同時也是最後一任的行政院長，下臺的身影要漂亮，你覺得你為蔡總統留下什麼？你又要交什麼給我們的新任總統？"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答了嗎？我想很重要的是，蔡總統執政這8年以來，不管是國際的國防外交或者是相關的經濟發展、防疫的成果上，確實是全世界都有目共睹，那不是我自己講的，因為按照國際評比的結果，不管是經濟自由、民主指數或者是青年指數都是在進步當中……"],["柯委員志恩：所以院長你認為你這是可以交給……"],["陳院長建仁：所以我現在想要很快地回答，因為民進黨政府是繼續執政，而且蔡總統交棒給賴副總統，實際上在這4年來他們也有很好的密切溝通，所以發展一個富國利民的政策一定會持續來進行。"],["柯委員志恩：我剛剛特別問到，因為我們要很具體的一個回應，到底留給新的賴總統會是什麼？我們先來問一下，請問過去蔡總統這樣子執政的8年當中，我們執行了幾項死刑？你準備把多少死刑犯交給我們的新任總統？"],["陳院長建仁：我印象中大概有執行過2次。"],["柯委員志恩：你在520之前還會再執行死刑嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想目前沒有這樣的規劃，而且很多的這些死刑犯您比我還清楚，現在都在等待大法官的釋憲。"],["柯委員志恩：院長，這就是問題所在，我剛剛特別提到你要留什麼？為什麼執政8年卻要在4月23號才對於大法官的釋憲作出答辯？而且未來不管在7月或在9月，大法官做完釋憲之後，不管如何，你留給新的賴總統卻是一個非常大的難題，這已經都是三審定讞了，這些死刑犯都不想死，可是被害人也不想死，這是司法正義，但是你們卻不斷地配合一些民間團體，他們不斷地透過釋憲、再審等等之類的，我想請問難道這些三審定讞的、你們認為這些法官都是亂判嗎？我們臺灣的民意有八成八是認為支持還要執行死刑的，我的重點在這裡，為什麼留下這些攤子給我們的新任總統？你送給他38個死刑犯。"],["陳院長建仁：我想每一個人對於死刑的看法不一樣，對於人權的保障也是很重要，而這件事情大法官要什麼時候來做釋憲是由大法官自己來做決定，在司法獨立的情況下，我們完全尊重憲法法庭開庭的時間。"],["柯委員志恩：時間點的問題，而且我要特別強調……"],["陳院長建仁：我們尊重……"],["柯委員志恩：如果廢死是民進黨的一張神主牌，我覺得就勇敢地把它說出來，不要以拖待變，然後把廢死的一些配套好好的完整提出來，否則我說過你留給新政府是什麼？第一個，你留給他的就是38位死刑犯，這是第一個；第二個，我們再來看一下，能源的政策是非常多人……我們的法務部長可以先請回去，等一下還有機會。我們的能源政策我還是要特別強調一下，留給我們的新政府是什麼？我想請問院長，上面所提出的這些法案，包括他們的子法，到底已經出我們各部會了沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：相關的子法各部會都有認真在訂定，有些子法已經公布，有些還在進行當中，應該是這樣。"],["柯委員志恩：所以520之前有辦法把這些修正的法案包括子法全部送到立法院來嗎？以示負責嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這個我要再盤點一下，因為你問到子法這個太細了，請部長回答……"],["王部長美花：經濟部再生能源管理條例的子法我們最近就會趕快確定……"],["柯委員志恩：所以在520之前，我剛剛所條列的這些項目當中，到底有多少項可以送到立法院來做審議？這是一個對於你能源政策負責的表現。"],["王部長美花：子法的部分是到立法院來做備案，子法的部分我們最近……最主要是屋頂太陽光電的部分……"],["柯委員志恩：是，我們非常關心有關於碳費收費的這些草案，我要告訴大家，在520之前這些法案不送進來，但是我們卻急著要來做電價的調漲，我覺得這部分是全民非常關切的。我先請問一下，目前來說，我們當然知道台電即使在2023年虧損我們補了500億，但是它還是預估有1,985億的虧損，而且今年預估可能還會再繼續虧損一千多億，是不是這樣子？"],["陳院長建仁：是，原因就是因為國際燃料價格上漲嘛！如果你講到所謂的綠電，它占我們現在所有發電的比例不高，所以如果我們要看電價的高低，實際上要看現在占大部分的燃氣跟燃煤部分……"],["柯委員志恩：有、有、有，來、來，院長，我們馬上就有台電的財報，馬上就可以來做一些檢討了，而且我覺得院長你不斷地強調很多的部分，大家問到為什麼會虧損，你特別提到了俄烏戰爭，我要提醒院長，去年7月的時候俄烏戰爭已經開打了，不過你在同樣的地方告訴我們可能預估不會漲價，這是你去年7月所特別提到的。","我們來看看台電的財報好了，購入的電價當中，的確有院長所提到的越來越貴了，而且我們再看下一頁，所購入的電力當中，你會發現我們所購入的部分，風力發電6.7、地熱6.32，然後太陽能光電是4.88，我們所購入的當中，的確這些綠電真的是比較貴，但是比較便宜的都是屬於比較便宜的。","所以我要問的部分是，你看看我們要達到這個配比，不好意思，2025我們所預定的50%、30%、20%已經確定是跳票了，因為我們的部長已經說2026年才有機會達到。但是我們再來看看數據，我們要如何達到這樣的配比？即使已經跳票的2026來說的話，我們的再生能源還要增加11%，然後燃煤要降低4%。我只想請問，以這樣的配比來看的話，以購入電力的價格來看，我們所購入的都是比較貴的能源，所以漲價會不會是一種常態？到底要彌補多少才有辦法彌補台電的虧損？"],["王部長美花：兩個部分，再生能源會增加，但是再生能源已經越來越多是直接賣給民間，並不是由台電來躉購，特別是離岸風電的部分，2025年完成的全部都是賣給民間，至於太陽光電部分，現在也都陸續轉賣給民間，因為這個是民間的企業，非常有需要綠電。"],["柯委員志恩：好，沒關係，既然談到民間企業，我們就繼續來討論台電的虧損問題。我們來看一下，如果台電的虧損問題，我想請問一下，因為我跟台電要資料，他們說這是機密，我不曉得機密在哪裡？我想請問院長，你知不知道有關於我們要提到的離岸風電問題，目前中油投資40億，然後台電是67億，合起來超過一百多億，目前已經受到行政院同意，這是事實吧？要投資這些離岸風電的問題，我們討論多久？"],["王部長美花：這個是由經濟部來決定，目前還在走程序，原則上我們會同意它來投資。"],["柯委員志恩：那好了，同意的話，很多相關的官員還指出投資風場內部的投資報酬率（IRR）是非常穩定的，這也是一個事實吧？你所得到的訊息也是事實吧？如果是這麼樣穩定的話，為什麼我們還要大費周章地拉八大行庫去做信用擔保呢？"],["王部長美花：這個一定需要，不是只有臺灣……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王部長美花：所有國家在風場建置部分，一定都會需要貸款的部分。"],["柯委員志恩：好，如果要來做這樣一個擔保的話，我們來看看這個投資到底有沒有什麼必要性喔！其實院長，我在第九任就擔任立法委員，我在2018年的時候就特別提出來了，在示範風場得標的時候我就質疑，為什麼我們花了250億，用的是日立末代的風機？我還特別問到如何保證未來20年當中它可以確保無誤。結果現在風場蓋完了，我們來檢視一下它到底得到一個什麼樣的結果，好不好？我們來檢視一下結果。我要告訴院長，因為我們都談到科學，目前國外認為風機的可用率都是到97%才需要來下注投標，這才是需要來做保證的，97%是國外、歐洲所有的部分都這樣。可是目前為止，我不曉得為什麼都創新紀錄，只有56%耶！各位，在過去兩年當中，只有兩個月的時候才達到所謂的一些標準，大部分的時間我們風機的可用率是非常低的，在這麼低的狀況之下，我只能說這是一個事實，我們從來沒有達過97%這樣的一個風機的可用率，為什麼我們是獨步全球的低？代表政府花了很多錢蓋了一堆不太能用的風機。"],["陳院長建仁：不是這樣。"],["王部長美花：委員的這個數據我回去確認，但是我的理解應該跟委員的理解是有落差的。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王部長美花：應該不是這樣子。"],["柯委員志恩：沒有，我的理解是，97%是國外的一個訊息，但是過去2年，過去24個月當中，的確沒有達到這樣的標準，而且你說到民間的用電，我必須要提醒一下，在我們的風電裡面，在第3期當中，不管是來自於哪一個國家，德國的萊茵再生能源宣布要退出臺灣，還有我們的日商也評估不符合他們公司的投資報酬率，更不要講丹麥最大的 DONG Energy他們也是在做很大的評估，所以我只能說很多國際的部分是紛紛退出，而我們卻要投資得這麼大，這個是我們要特別提到的。"],["王部長美花：不是，有的有換，也有新增，然後有一些沒有進來，所以你講的日商，有一個日商確實是退出，但是有另外一個日商加進來，所以這個在不同的國家，對不同的風場，它本來就會評估。"],["柯委員志恩：我要求台電做出這樣的一個資料，而且趁著這個時間點，請院長責成他們在1個月之內給我相關的資料，可以讓我們有多一點的瞭解，因為我們必須要搞清楚這些源頭。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["柯委員志恩：因為這是能源最大的一個問題，我不希望一個大的錢坑要我們這些八大行庫一起去跳火坑，這是我質詢最大的一個重點，可以嗎？"],["王部長美花：沒有問題，我們可以提供給委員，讓委員瞭解。"],["柯委員志恩：因為這個能源的問題牽涉到未來我們的電價，這都是環環相扣的，所以我也不希望能源的這些問題留給我們的新任總統，讓他有一大堆的爛攤子。"],["王部長美花：委員講得中油、台電的這個投資案，未來都是賣給民間的，不是給台電躉購，都不是。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["柯委員志恩：我沒有，我沒有說它是給台電躉購，你誤會我的意思。"],["陳院長建仁：這是民間的。"],["柯委員志恩：都是在民間，我只是強調這樣的投資，當外商紛紛已經畫上一個問號的時候，我們這樣的投資到底有沒有它的正確度？"],["陳院長建仁：外商沒有畫問號。"],["柯委員志恩：這是你們要審慎評估的。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["柯委員志恩：請院長在最後的74天當中，也必須要好好地去做。"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答一下嗎？"],["柯委員志恩：可以。"],["陳院長建仁：這個是外商的投資，而且外商現在對於這個風電發電很有信心，所以他們現在也可以百分之百的賣給民間，所以在這個部分，你那個97%的風機可用率，計算的標準是什麼？確實是像部長講的，我們需要去研究看看。"],["柯委員志恩：97%是國外認為他們在任何要投資的時候……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，是定義，科學定義。"],["柯委員志恩：可以，我們就好好地用科學論述。"],["陳院長建仁：對、對、對。"],["柯委員志恩：但是我要的資料沒有要到，所以院長，趁這個時間幫我要到資料去做……"],["陳院長建仁：好，所以我們定義清楚。"],["王部長美花：沒有問題，我們把這個資料給委員。"],["柯委員志恩：這才是一個我們真正互相答辯的方式，很好！在這個部分裡面，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：因為電費問題是大家非常重視的。接下來我們來問一下很多人關心的詐騙問題。院長，你有沒有看過，你曾經要送很多人書欸？你知道你的臉也有被放在詐騙集團的文案當中嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！確實，所以……"],["柯委員志恩：對，不過你的運氣滿好的，你都還沒有發現之前，我們刑事警察局已經幫你把它移除了，幫你打詐了，可是……"],["陳院長建仁：我想刑事警察局對於任何社會關注的人士，在碰到這個情況時第一時點上就會讓它下架，但是我們在打詐的工作上確實還需要再繼續加強的，因為最近全世界詐騙的技術翻陳出新。"],["柯委員志恩：是啊！"],["陳院長建仁：其實我們打詐有滿不錯的成果……"],["柯委員志恩：院長，沒關係，你打詐有很多成果，但是我們還是要發現問題，我們來看看到底要怎麼樣解決。我昨天在立法院就接到一個詐騙電話，他說我的電費沒有繳，要來拆我的電表。在立法院接到這個電話，你相信嗎？而且我問了所有立法院的助理，每個人都接過類似的詐騙電話。我們來審視一下，你看，我相信政府有決心要來打詐，但是到底成效怎麼樣？你看，蔡總統成立了「打擊詐欺犯罪中心」，蘇院長也成立了「打詐國家隊」，然後你成立了「打詐辦公室」，真的每個人都想打詐，金額是越花越多，然後打詐的技術卻越來越高超，這真的是「仙拼仙」耶！所以打詐的成效到底如何？你說有成效，我們來檢視一下。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["柯委員志恩：院長，我還是提醒一下，你認為很有成效，你會提出數據，但是人民的感受不是這個樣子，你看你花了這麼多錢，我現在幫你整理一下，打詐的人力就是不足，你看165專線被打爆，你們提到的，我們就以兩個層次來看，檢察機關的人力目前為止還欠缺了671人，這我幫你算出來了，而且打詐中心的165專線，說實在的，配備45個人，1年接到43萬通的電話，平均每天大概是1,184通，而且每人平均接了快100通的電話，這個人力……","我們再看下面一個，你花了這麼多的錢，比過去更多的錢，但是你放在人力的部分只占百分之六點多，大部分都放在設備跟儀器，但是我們需要聽到有人親自在第一時間告訴我該怎麼辦，可是你卻把整個的配比放在這個地方，這難道不是打詐不利滿大的一個因素嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想如果沒有很好的設備，要打詐更困難，那……"],["柯委員志恩：沒有很好的人，你也沒辦法第一時間來讓我們知道該怎麼辦啊！"],["陳院長建仁：對，但是人力跟設備要同時精進，而不是說我進了很多人力，沒有設備……"],["柯委員志恩：你的人力只有六點多耶！院長，你的人力配比只有這麼多耶！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，你現在看的是經費的占比嘛！"],["柯委員志恩：當然啦！"],["陳院長建仁：所以是經費的占比，很多的這些軟體，像最近……我舉一個例子，「Linbay好油」那一個例子就是因為我們有很好的軟體、很好的設備，才能夠追蹤……"],["柯委員志恩：好啦！院長，你不要再談「Linbay好油」，我只是告訴你……"],["陳院長建仁：我只是舉一個例子啦！你不要那麼敏感。"],["柯委員志恩：好，院長，你就舉這個例子，但是我只是強調這一個重點，就是你人力的配比，包括我剛剛所提到的一個人每天要接到上千通的電話，你已經爆掉了，165的人員已經爆掉了，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["柯委員志恩：還有，院長，因為時間……"],["陳院長建仁：我同意你啦！就是說當我們有好的設備，我們的人力需要進用、加強，然後讓科技執法能夠進行，這個我們雙方來努力，如果人力不足，我們當然會來補充啊！"],["柯委員志恩：那什麼時候來補足？現在內政部長和法務部長都在，你人力什麼時候補足？"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明，我們檢察人力需要檢察官助理，行政院去年已經給我們撥了100人，今年還要撥150人，所以我們在人力的補充上能夠全力以赴，做好打詐的工作。"],["柯委員志恩：你的檢察官助理、你的檢察單位裡面，其實對你們是有非常多的怨言，基層還是有一些批評喔！"],["蔡部長清祥：不是，非常肯定我們現在增加了檢察官助理，成果非常好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長，我還是提醒一下，真的為你們好，不要每天說你們成果很好，當你成果很好的時候……"],["蔡部長清祥：我是說檢察官助理來幫助很大。"],["柯委員志恩：檢察官助理的部分，他們同樣沒有辦法代替檢察官，他們只是在行政業務上面……"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["柯委員志恩：畢竟他們還不是，所以他們只能在行政業務上面去做一些擔待。"],["蔡部長清祥：那就可以分擔很多檢察官的工作。"],["柯委員志恩：是，問題是檢察官做得再好，人民還是覺得我們目前打詐非常的不力，而且有非常多的意見，這個要跟院長好好的反映一下。你所帶領的這些團隊，你或許告訴我你做得很好，但是我們有太多的社會案件，人都抓回來了，你們還把他當作大內宣，結果呢？一個一個又被放走！還被人家取笑說根本就是拿了免費機票跟吃麵線……"],["蔡部長清祥：不是這樣……"],["柯委員志恩：當然是這樣！這不是我講的……"],["蔡部長清祥：因為他是一個通緝犯，我們當然一定要引渡回來。"],["柯委員志恩：不只一個！"],["蔡部長清祥：現在還在偵辦當中。"],["柯委員志恩：是，問題是你不能否認很多時候抓回來的人，又被法院的法官一一把他給放掉了，所以院長，你可不可以跟司法院好好的溝通一下？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們來溝通。"],["柯委員志恩：檢警辛苦的這樣抓人回來，結果全部都被……"],["陳院長建仁：我們尊重司法獨立啦！"],["柯委員志恩：什麼司法獨立！這……"],["陳院長建仁：不用急，我們會跟司法院溝通，然後好好的跟它協調，但是我們絕對希望詐騙犯應該要得到應有的懲罰，能夠有嚇阻的作用。"],["柯委員志恩：院長，你們有非常多的案例，這些都是讓人民覺得非常的有感。"],["陳院長建仁：對，但是我們要尊重司法獨立。"],["柯委員志恩：我當然知道你要尊重，但是你要把問題解決是最重要的。"],["陳院長建仁：對，所以我們會協調溝通。"],["柯委員志恩：對啊！所以要好好跟司法院協調，不要檢警在那邊抓人，然後法官在放人，雖然今年是龍年，但是不要那麼多恐龍法官，好不好？院長，這很重要啦！"],["陳院長建仁：這個我們同意，我們也會努力來……"],["柯委員志恩：好啦！那你說以打詐來說的話……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我要幫司法院講一下，司法院最近也很努力的……"],["柯委員志恩：大家都很努力，但是人民都沒什麼感覺，所以你看，我剛剛問你要留給我們新總統的是什麼？真的，詐騙的黑數也很多，你們所提出來詐騙的金額88億，還有很多的黑數。我還是強調……"],["陳院長建仁：我們在去年，不法犯罪所得就查到41億，而且攔阻詐騙已經攔阻了76億，所以116億的錢因為有打詐的努力，所以才使得116億能夠保住，當然我們還要繼續努力……"],["柯委員志恩：你有保住一些錢，但是你讓民眾失去更多錢。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有啊！你剛才講的是80億嘛！"],["柯委員志恩：那個還有黑數，還只是我現在看到的、查出來的資料，院長你不能否認還是有些黑數。"],["陳院長建仁：我想黑數……"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告一下，現在黑數比以前降低很多，特別是我們165專線設了之後，因為案件進來……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["林部長右昌：過去可能就像COVID-19一樣……"],["柯委員志恩：部長，所謂的黑數就是查不到叫黑數，你如何告訴我黑數降低很多？黑數就是看不到的數字，看不到數字，你怎麼把它降低，怎麼改變很多？"],["林部長右昌：沒有，跟委員報告，就像COVID-19一樣，過去可能確診，他不報，可是因為現在有充分的管道像165，他不只可以報案，現在還可以讓我們變成一個大數據。所以現在165的專線，像你剛剛在講通數增加，但是通數增加對我們處理打詐的事情有幫助，因為這樣才可以在最短的時間裡面，拿最新的這種犯罪手法去跟民眾宣導。"],["柯委員志恩：我剛剛已經特別提到了，我知道你們都有在努力，但是很顯然這樣的成效……，連我昨天都還繼續接到詐騙電話，要拆立法院的電表，真是把我給嚇到了，所以這已經不是一個個案。"],["林部長右昌：是，跟委員報告，因為它是無差別的攻擊……"],["柯委員志恩：是。"],["林部長右昌：所以現在用AI、用科技的方式。"],["柯委員志恩：我只是要告訴你，這些部分人民都會感受得到，所以不要舉白旗，把詐騙的事情又留給我們的新總統，我現在都幫我們賴總統在講話，好不好？那我們繼續看看這個成效……"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有舉白旗啦！我們很努力！"],["柯委員志恩：我們現在繼續看看成效嘛！你看包括這個部分，我們行政院也提出了這樣子的打擊辦公室，但是你看看所有的部分，包括你剛剛看到了，整個組織有內政部、有NCC，還有金管，還有包括法務，我真的沒有看到……"],["陳院長建仁：有，有數位部。"],["柯委員志恩：有，有數位部，有！它是放在NCC下面的組織，你去看，它放在NCC下面，我還幫……你來看一下，院長，你不要這樣很無奈的微笑，我告訴你，我都是用科學數據來告訴你。你看數位發展部的任務是配合NCC，放在它的下面。它做了哪些事情？幫電商上課、督促業者做這個檢測，還有包括做一些鼓勵還是上課，這不是我們數位部的一個標準。部長上來了！"],["唐部長鳳：我可以回答嗎？好，我們不只有協助NCC，我們也有協助金管會，特別是在阻詐跟堵詐這兩件事，資訊流跟金流上，我們都全力配合。"],["柯委員志恩：部長，他們把這個條文裡面4個大的部會都放在前面，你是附屬在NCC下面，難道不會覺得委屈嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：還有一個……"],["柯委員志恩：你是數位部卻沒有辦法在打詐裡面發揮一定的能力，把你放在NCC下面，難道不會讓你倍感委屈嗎？我都替你委屈了。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我們整個圖，你不要用這個圖看啦！這個圖是識詐、阻詐、堵詐跟懲詐，有不同的主責單位，我們數位部實際上跟這4個部分都有重要的關聯，識詐、阻詐、堵詐跟懲詐，都有幫助啦！"],["柯委員志恩：我知道啊！數位部目前就是放在堵詐的部分，現在剛好唐部長自己上來了，我說實在的，當初你上任的時候，大家認為你是IT的一個天才，現在大家對你4,000萬的出國旅費等等有意見，似乎把你認為是我們打詐當中最大的一個戰犯，而你剛好上來了。我先問你，院長，他昨天在交通委員會被質詢，似乎被認為在打詐的團體當中，唐鳳是一個最需要負責的第一號戰犯，你怎麼樣看待？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得這一個打詐的過程當中，剛才我講過，就是內政部、通傳會、金管會、數位部、法務部……"],["柯委員志恩：我只問唐鳳昨天一路下來，似乎已經從一個大家認為最大的、亮眼的明星，現在淪為打詐不力最大的一個戰犯，你怎麼來看待這件事情？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得沒有任何的戰犯，打詐有很多很多努力的團隊……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你認為我們唐部長很好，做得還不錯，數位部做得不錯囉？"],["陳院長建仁：每一個部長，每一個部會的首長都做得不錯！"],["柯委員志恩：喔！那你的條件真的比我們這些民間的委員寬容非常的多！"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得要看看哪一個item、哪一個項目，當然有一些、某一個特定的工作上，需要再改進、再精進，這個有，但是他們整體的努力，為民服務這樣的用心，我都給他們很大的肯定，感謝他們能夠使臺灣……"],["柯委員志恩：哇賽！所以你覺得數位部……"],["陳院長建仁：福國利民，然後股票可以漲到2萬點，還有經濟很好……"],["柯委員志恩：欸！院長，你留下什麼？股票漲到2萬點，很多時候你會發現……股民到底有多少？大家平均的財富有多少？股票2萬點，你要看數字背後到底是什麼，你會不會造成更大的貧富差距？"],["陳院長建仁：那你不喜歡嗎？"],["柯委員志恩：所以院長，這個數字的背後……"],["陳院長建仁：你不喜歡股票漲到2萬點？"],["柯委員志恩：我喜歡股票漲到2萬點，但是不能因為這樣就表示你的政績，這背後代表什麼？有很多其他的國家股票漲很多，但你會發現這個股票漲很多的狀況之下，不是每個股民都可以受惠，反而是讓貧富差距、相對剝奪感更增加。我今天不跟你談論股票，只討論打詐的問題，不要跟我扯太多。","唐部長，經過昨天這樣一連串的質詢，你認為數位部要不要為打詐負起全權的責任？似乎目前都把責任放在你身上。"],["唐部長鳳：跟委員報告，客觀的來講，我們主責的部分包含電商和之前分期付款、解除詐騙等等，但是最近5個月已經都沒出現在165的高風險賣場，我們主責的遊戲點數案件也大幅下降，我們主責第三方支付現在已經全面登錄，這些都是在我們主責的範圍內提供幫助，當然大家期望我做更多關於網路上面的廣告平台業等等，這我們也願意來主責。"],["柯委員志恩：對，大家期望你更多，但是大家也給你這麼久的時間了，你目前只剩下74天的時間，在剩下的時間內，你是否可以在新任總統上任之前，讓我們在場的每一個人能夠看得出打詐更好的成效？否則你們剛才所條列的每一個事項，對民眾來說，其實感受度還是非常的低。"],["唐部長鳳：我想在投資廣告上，大家不希望看到的是同一個人可以冒名好幾個名人，這部分已經一讀送交委員會，是電子簽章法要解決的問題，所以也很希望大院能夠支持我們這個法案。"],["柯委員志恩：電子簽章法我沒有問題。院長，最後給你的時間當中，我還是認為，剩下74天時間可以做的事情非常多。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我會做到最後一天。"],["柯委員志恩：我剛剛所條列出來，包括死刑犯、釋憲部分，這個時間點本席是有意見的。","第二個，有關我剛才要求的電價、台電的虧損，還有購入電力、風場的部分，也請你能夠呈現給我。","還有最重要的是，人民認為應該要在打詐層面做好的工作，不要一天到晚告訴我做得多好、多好，你們說很多地方已經下架，但關於人民被詐騙，我剛剛已經特別提出來了，詐騙的筆數很高、黑數更高，所以大家都在比賽技術層面。如果人民沒感覺，我們的溫度沒有被感受到，你再多數字對我們來說也是你們自己大內宣的數據，不是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：對，所以我也一再強調，我們現在整個內閣會繼續戰戰兢兢的做好福國利民的工作，在5月20日可以跟下一任內閣無縫交接，把現在8年所做的好成績繼續發揚光大，能夠使臺灣更加堅韌、更加溫暖。"],["柯委員志恩：唉，院長我最後一句話，真的！下台的身影要漂亮，或許你519可以瀟灑轉身，揮揮衣袖不帶雲彩，但是我真的對於520要上台的賴總統是不是可以微笑上台存疑，畢竟有這麼多的事情要他去處理……"],["陳院長建仁：你不用擔心，我們會好好的溝通、無縫接軌。"],["柯委員志恩：我個人還是抱著相當懷疑的態度。"],["陳院長建仁：那是你的見解。"],["柯委員志恩：剩下的74天，我只能告訴你帶的團隊，請你們好好繃緊神經……"],["陳院長建仁：我們會繃緊神經，一向如此。"],["柯委員志恩：我們每個人都會好好的看，我剛剛所提到的那些法案，520之前應該已經出門上路了，好不好？這才是本席對你最大的期許。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們會無縫接軌……"],["主席：謝謝柯委員志恩的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第49號陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":23,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-08"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1130601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.4778437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8.535968750000002,"end":8.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9.818468750000001,"end":12.602843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.72096875,"end":14.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.33596875,"end":24.938468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25.410968750000002,"end":41.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.87284375,"end":45.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":45.728468750000005,"end":75.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.64784375,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":80.03534375000001,"end":81.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.84096875,"end":97.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":95.00346875000001,"end":95.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":96.18471875,"end":100.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.99034375000001,"end":98.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":100.62284375,"end":122.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.95534375000001,"end":106.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.45659375000001,"end":111.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":111.47346875000001,"end":112.31721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.31721875000001,"end":112.33409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.76721875000001,"end":125.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":124.80471875,"end":129.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":129.59721875,"end":170.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.31096875,"end":152.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":170.77221875,"end":175.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":175.46346875,"end":177.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.51784375,"end":179.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.12096875,"end":205.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":205.56846875000002,"end":208.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.32784375,"end":206.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.71596875,"end":217.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.49909375000001,"end":231.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":231.28596875000002,"end":246.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.19909375,"end":247.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2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我的重點在就是為什麼留下這些的攤子給我們的新任總統,你送了他38個死刑犯給他。"},{"start":325.794,"end":330.215,"text":"時間點的問題而且我要特別強調如果Face是民進黨的一張神主牌我覺得就勇敢的把它說出來"},{"start":355.68,"end":356.221,"text":"我還是要特別強調一下"},{"start":378.28,"end":397.149,"text":"那留給我們的新政府是什麼?我想請問院長上面所提出的這些的法案包括他們的執法到底已經出了我們各部會了沒有?相關的執法各部會都有認真在訂定那有些的執法已經公佈有些還在進行當中應該是這樣"},{"start":398.257,"end":404.462,"text":"所以是520之前有辦法把這些的修正的法案包括執法全部送到我們立法院來嗎?"},{"start":404.462,"end":420.757,"text":"這可以以事負責嗎?這個我要再盤點一下因為你問到執法這個太細了。經濟部的那個災生人員管理條例的執法我們最近就會趕快確定。所以你們在520之前我剛剛所條例的這些的項目當中到底有多少項可以送到我們立法院來做審?"},{"start":421.417,"end":447.354,"text":"這是一個對於你能源政策負責的一個表現喔?執法的部分是到立法院來做備案。那執法的部分我們最近最主要是屋頂太陽光電的部分。是,我們非常關心有關於碳費收費的這些草案。那我要告訴大家就是說在520之前這些法案不送進來但是我們卻急著要來做電價的漲調。我覺得這部分是全民非常關切的。我先請問一下。"},{"start":448.775,"end":452.717,"text":"目前來說我們當然知道這個臺電我們即使是在2023年虧損我們補了500億但是呢他還是預估有1985億的虧損而且今年預估可能還會再繼續還要再虧損1000多億是不是這樣子"},{"start":465.584,"end":483.236,"text":"是,原因就是因為這個國際燃料價格上漲嘛,那如果你講到所謂的綠電,它在我們所有現在發電的比例不高,那所以呢如果我們要看電價的高低呢,實際上要看現在佔大部分的燃氣跟燃煤的比例。"},{"start":483.416,"end":507.989,"text":"有有有來來我們院長我們馬上的這馬上就有臺電的這個財報來了我們馬上就可以來做一些檢討了而且我覺得院長你不但的強調很多的部分大家問他為什麼會虧損你特別提到的惡霧戰爭我要提醒院長去年7月的時候惡霧戰爭已經開打了不過你在同樣的地方你告訴我們可能預估不會漲價這是你去年7月所特別提到的那我們來看看我們臺電的這個財報好了這個購入的這個所謂的電價裡面當中的確院長你所提到的"},{"start":513.012,"end":535.35,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":535.47,"end":560.954,"text":"你看看我們要達到這個配比不好意思2025我們所預定的50、30、20已經確定是跳票了因為我們的部長已經說2026年才有機會達到但是我們再來看看數據你看我們要如何達到這樣的配比即使已經跳票的2026來說的話我們的再生能源還要增加11%然後呢我們的燃煤要降低4我只想請問以這樣的配比來看的話以購入電力的價格來去看"},{"start":564.155,"end":586.869,"text":"﹗"},{"start":587.029,"end":587.149,"text":"您看﹖"},{"start":606.209,"end":628.141,"text":"如果臺電的虧損問題我想請問一下因為我這跟臺電要資料他們說這是機密我不曉得機密在哪裡那目前為止我想請問院長你知不知道有關於我們要提到的這個離岸封店的這個問題目前中油投資40億然後臺電是67億超過何幾才差不多100多億然後目前已經受到這個行政院同意這是事實吧"},{"start":629.431,"end":651.563,"text":"關於投資我們這些離岸風電的問題,我們討論…這個是經濟部這邊來決定,那目前還在走程序,那原則上我們會同意他來投資。那好了,那同意的話,那很多的相關的官員還指出來,我們投資風場內部的投資報酬力,就是IRR是非常穩定的,這也是一個事實吧,你所得到的訊息也是事實吧。那如果是這麼樣的穩定的話,那為什麼?"},{"start":654.184,"end":660.466,"text":"我們還要拉這個八大行會做信用擔保呢?"},{"start":660.466,"end":680.673,"text":"這個一定需要,這個不是只有臺灣,所有國家封廠的建制的部分,他一定都會需要這個臺灣的部分。 那如果說需要來做這樣的一個擔保的話,那我們來看看這個投資到底有沒有什麼一個必要性。其實院長,我在第9任就擔任立法院委員,我在2018年的時候就特別提出來了,在這個示範封"},{"start":680.913,"end":681.774,"text":"我告訴院長因為我們都談到科學。"},{"start":703.092,"end":729.922,"text":"目前國外認為認為風機的可用率多到97%你才需要來下注投標這才是需要來做的保證的97%這是國外歐洲所有的部分都這樣可是我們現在目前為止的我不曉得為什麼都創新紀錄只有56%各位我們在過去兩年當中只有兩個月的時候才達到所謂的一些的標準大部分的時間來說我們風機的可用率是非常低的"},{"start":730.622,"end":753.302,"text":"這麼低的狀況之下,我只能說這是一個事實。我們二十層從來沒有達過97%的這樣的一個風機的可用率。然後為什麼我們是獨步全球的低,代表政府花了很多錢蓋了一堆不太能用的風機。委員的這個數據我回去確認,但是我的理解應該跟我的理解是有落差的,應該不是這樣子。"},{"start":753.902,"end":780.618,"text":"沒有我的理解97%是國外的一個訊息但是過去兩年過去24個月當中的確沒有達到這麼樣的標準而且你說民間的一個用電我必須要提醒一下在我們的這個我們的這個風電裡面第三期當中不管是來自於不同的國家德國的德國的萊茵再生能源他要宣布退出臺灣還有呢我們的日商也評估不符合他們公司的投資報酬率"},{"start":781.298,"end":809.623,"text":"還有更不要去講了丹麥最大的Don Energy他們也是在做很大的一個評估所以呢我只能說很多國的這個部分是紛紛退出而我們確實要如此的來投資這麼大這個是我們要特別提到的有競爭然後有一些沒有進來所以你講的日商日商有一個日商他確實退出但是另外一個日商加進來所以這個在不同的國家他對不同的風場"},{"start":811.084,"end":828.238,"text":"我請求,我要求臺電做出這樣子的一個資料,而且趁著這個時間點,請院長可以責成他們在一個月之內給我相關的資料,可以讓我們多一點了解。因為我們必須要搞清楚這些的源頭,因為這是一個能源最大的一個問題。我不希望一個大的錢坑要..."},{"start":829.349,"end":854.677,"text":"要我們的這些八大行戶來一起跳火坑這是我質詢最大的一個重點沒有問題我們可以提供給委員讓委員了解因為這個能源的問題是牽涉到未來我們電價這都是完全環環相扣的所以我也不希望這個能源的這些的問題留給我們的新任的總統還有一大堆的爛牌子不過這一個如果委員講中油台電這個投資案未來都是賣給民間的不是給台電賺夠都不是"},{"start":854.957,"end":855.917,"text":"我可以回答一下嗎?"},{"start":855.917,"end":856.078,"text":"可以"},{"start":876.047,"end":877.128,"text":"97%是國外認為他們在任何要投資的時候?"},{"start":902.205,"end":925.557,"text":"可以,我們就好好地用科學論述,但是我要的資料沒有要到,所以院長趁這個時間幫我要到資料來去做。 這個才是一個真正的我們來互相做一個打變。 好,很好,在這個部分裡面,謝謝。我們接下來,下面一個,因為電費問題是大家非常重視的,下面一個我們來問一下,還是很多人關心的,這個詐騙的問題。 哎,院長,你有沒有看過,你曾經要送出很多人的書誒?"},{"start":927.379,"end":941.234,"text":"您說你的臉也是被放上我們這個詐騙集團當中。 對啊,確實。對,不過你的運氣蠻好的,你都還沒有發生之前,我們刑事警察局已經幫你把他移除了,幫你打詐了。沒有,我想刑事警察局對於任何"},{"start":941.715,"end":959.036,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":959.256,"end":961.477,"text":"我相信政府有決心要來打仗但是到底成效怎麼樣"},{"start":988.81,"end":995.397,"text":"蔡總統打擊詐欺的犯罪中心蘇院長也成立了打詐國家隊你成立了打詐辦公室"},{"start":999.44,"end":1026.884,"text":"真的每個人都想打仗金額是越花越多然後打仗的技術就越來越高超這真的是生病生的所以到底這個打仗的成效到底如何你說有成效我們來解釋一下院長我還是提醒一下你認為說很有成效但是你要問你會提出數據但是人民的感受不是這個樣子喔你看你花了這麼多錢我現在幫你來整理一下打仗的人力就是不足嘛你看到嗎165的專線的基本是被打爆"},{"start":1027.825,"end":1042.622,"text":"你們提到我們兩個層次來看,檢查的機關的人力目前為止還欠缺了670億就把你算得出來,而且打造中心的165,說實在的這個配備45個人而且一年接到43萬"},{"start":1045.064,"end":1073.149,"text":"的電話平均每天大概是1184通而且每人平均接的快100通的電話。 這個人力我們再看下面一個這個你花了這麼多的錢比過去更多的錢但是你放在這個所謂的人力的部分裡面只佔6點多大部分都放在設備跟儀器但是我們需要聽到親自的人在第一時間告訴我該怎麼辦可是你卻把整個的"},{"start":1073.649,"end":1074.389,"text":"您現在看的是這一個"},{"start":1097.657,"end":1098.217,"text":"我只是舉一個例子,你不要那麼敏感。"},{"start":1114.904,"end":1143.518,"text":"好那院長你就提這個例子但是我只是強調這一個重點就是你人類的配人力的配比包括我剛剛所提到的一個人每天要接到上前鋒的電話你已經爆掉165的人員已經爆掉了好不好還有還有院長我同意你啦我同意你就是說當我們有好的設備那我們的人力需要來禁用然後呢來加強然後讓用科技執法能夠來進行這個我們雙方來努力如果人力不足我們當然會來補充"},{"start":1144.679,"end":1167.939,"text":"那什麼時候來補足?現在內政部長或法務部長都在你人力什麼時候補足?跟委員說明我們檢查人力需要檢察官助理那行政院去年已經給我們撥了100人今年還要撥150人所以我們會在人力的補充上能夠全力以赴來做好打詐的工作你的檢察官助理你的檢察單位裡面其實對你們是有非常多的"},{"start":1169.3,"end":1181.886,"text":"不是,非常肯定,我們現在有增加的檢察官助理,成果非常好。檢察官助理的部分他們同樣沒有代替檢察官,他們只是在行政業務上面,畢竟他們還不是,所以他們只能在行政業務上面做一些擔擔。"},{"start":1197.833,"end":1198.914,"text":"因為他是一個通緝犯,我們當然一定要引渡回來。"},{"start":1227.616,"end":1240.07,"text":"現在還在偵辦當中所以問題是你不能否認很多時候你抓回的人的時候被你們法院又法官一一把他給放掉了所以院長你可不可以跟司法院好好的溝通一下好我們來溝通但是我們尊重司法獨立啦我們會來跟法院不用"},{"start":1246.858,"end":1260.206,"text":"不用急,我們會來跟司法院溝通,然後好好的跟他來協調。但是呢,我們絕對希望這一個詐騙犯應該要得到應有的懲罰,讓他能夠有後續的作用。對,但是我們要尊重司法獨立。對,所以我們會協調溝通。"},{"start":1268.951,"end":1269.792,"text":"我剛問你說要留下給我們這個新的總統是什麼?"},{"start":1269.792,"end":1269.872,"text":"真的"},{"start":1294.292,"end":1296.814,"text":"我們在去年齁因為這一個不法犯罪所得就查到了41億而且呢攔阻詐騙的已經有攔阻了76億齁所以就116億的"},{"start":1313.968,"end":1335.776,"text":"議員﹗"},{"start":1336.456,"end":1355.948,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下現在黑數比以前降低很多特別是我們165專線設了之後因為案件進來過去可能就像COVID-19一樣部長所謂的黑數就是查不到叫黑數你怎麼可以告訴我如何告訴我黑數是降低很多黑數就是看不到的數字啦那看不到數字你怎麼把它降低怎麼改變很多"},{"start":1356.348,"end":1380.165,"text":"委員跟你報告因為就像COVID-19一樣過去可能確診他不報可是因為現在有充分的管道165的話他不只是可以這個報案他現在還可以這個這個我們變成是一個大數據所以現在165的專線像你剛剛在講這個通宿增加但是通宿增加對我們處理打炸的事情是有幫助因為才可以在最短的時間裡面把最新的這種"},{"start":1380.905,"end":1396.003,"text":"我剛才特別提到我知道你們都有在努力但是很顯然這樣一個成效連我昨天都還繼續接到這個詐騙電話要拆我拆立法院的電錶真的把我給嚇到了所以這已經不是一個個案因為他是無差別的攻擊"},{"start":1396.544,"end":1398.165,"text":"我們沒有舉白旗了。 我們很努力。"},{"start":1416.22,"end":1416.4,"text":"有數位部,有。"},{"start":1431.883,"end":1459.903,"text":"有有數位部有他是放在NCC之下面放在NCC下面的組織你去看他放在NCC下面我還幫院長你來看一下院長你不要這樣很無奈的微笑我告訴你我都是用科學數據來告訴你你看他是放在數位發展不是放在這個任務是配合NCC的組織條例下面他做了哪些事情幫電商上課督促業者做這個檢測還有包括這些這個做些鼓勵還是上課這不是我們數位部的一個標準"},{"start":1461.604,"end":1488.844,"text":"部長上來了是可以回答嗎我們不只有協助NCC我們有協助金管會特別是在組詐跟賭詐這兩件事資訊流跟金流上我們都全力來配合部長你他們把這個條文裡面四個大的部會都放在前面你是附屬在NCC下面的那不會覺得委屈嗎你那不會覺得大家因為你是數位部沒有辦法在打仗裡面發揮一個所謂一定能力把你放在NCC下面讓你被感委屈嗎我都替你委屈了"},{"start":1489.544,"end":1507.135,"text":"委員我們這個整個的那個圖啊你不要用這個圖看啦這個圖是市詐、主詐、賭詐跟懲詐有不同的主責的單位但是我們數位部實際上是跟這四個部分都有重要的情形都有幫助"},{"start":1507.575,"end":1508.535,"text":"事詐、賭詐、主詐、懲詐都有關事務。"},{"start":1528.041,"end":1542.714,"text":"市府把你認為是我們打炸當中的是最大的一個戰犯你剛好上來了我先問你 院長你對這件事情在他昨天在交通部被質詢市府認為在打炸的團體當中唐鳳是一個最需要被負責的第一號戰犯你怎麼樣看待我覺得"},{"start":1543.234,"end":1544.434,"text":"我每一個部長、每一個部會的所長都做得不錯。"},{"start":1570.499,"end":1593.67,"text":"那你的條件真的比我們這些民進黨委員來的寬容非常的多我覺得要看看哪一個item哪一個項目當然有一些某一個特定的工作上需要再改進再精進有但是整體他們的努力為民服務的這樣的一個用心我想我給他們都有很大的肯定感謝他們"},{"start":1594.23,"end":1595.451,"text":"你不喜歡嗎?你不喜歡股票漲到2萬點?"},{"start":1620.742,"end":1646.374,"text":"﹗﹗﹗﹗"},{"start":1646.474,"end":1675.086,"text":"各位委員報告我們主責的部分包含電商客觀的來講之前這個分期付款解除詐騙等等但是最近5個月已經都沒有出現在165的高風險賣場客觀的來說我們主責的遊戲點數也大幅下降這個案件我們主責第三方支付現在已經全面的來登錄所以我想這些都是在我們主責的範圍裡面我們來幫助當然我想大家期望我做更多了就是網路上面的廣告平台業等等那這個我們也願意來主責"},{"start":1675.731,"end":1701.389,"text":"對大家期望你更多但是大家也給你這麼久的時間了所以你目前只剩下74天的時間了所以在這目前剩下的時間你是否該給我們的新任總統上任之前可以讓我們在場的所有每一個人可以給我們新任總統上任之前給我們一個更好的一個打仗看得出最大一個成效的部分否則你們剛剛所調整的每一個事項對民眾來說的話其實感受度還是非常的低的"},{"start":1702.116,"end":1730.525,"text":"其實我想在投資廣告上面大家所不希望看到的是同樣一個人他可以冒名稱好幾個名人那這個部分就是我們已經送到現在已經一讀交交委會的電子簽章法要解決的問題所以也很希望大院能夠支持我們這個法案電子簽章我沒有問題所以院長最後給你的一個時間當中我還是認為剩下74天的時間可以做的事情非常的多所以我剛剛所調列出來的包括在死刑犯部分的在事件的這個部分裡面這個時間點本席是有意見的第二個"},{"start":1730.985,"end":1759.134,"text":"有關於我剛所要求的在這個電子價臺電裡面的虧損還有你所購入電力還有風潮的部分也請你能夠呈現去給我還有最重要的是人民認為應該要來在打造層面當中應該做好的這樣的一個工作不要一天到晚都告訴我做的有多好多好你說很多地方已經下架但是人民的被詐騙我剛才特別提出來了詐騙的比數很高黑數更高所以大家都是在比賽技術的層面如果人民沒有敢"},{"start":1759.394,"end":1766.613,"text":"﹗"},{"start":1767.241,"end":1789.678,"text":"對,所以我也一再的強調,我們現在的整個內閣會繼續戰戰兢兢的做好福國立民的工作,然後在5月20能夠跟下一任的內閣能夠無縫的交接,然後把現在8年所做的這樣的一個好的成績能夠再繼續發揚光大,然後更能夠使得台灣更加的堅韌,更加的溫暖。"},{"start":1789.838,"end":1790.699,"text":"你不用擔心,我們都會好好的來溝通,還有無縫接軌。"},{"start":1810.37,"end":1811.511,"text":"謝謝柯委員之恩的質詢謝謝陳院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第49號陳穎委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"149601","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149601","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e7383c0ce4a703cc2f4f71517bd34501d230da91660cc9cbf8ba9b0039caa7a6dfe90f7597316d845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:57:58 - 11:12:34","影片長度":"00:14:36","會議時間":"2024-03-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-08","duration":876,"end_time":"2024-03-08T11:12:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-08T10:57:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":723,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時58分）院長，我們是不是請陳院長？"],["主席：麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：沈委員早安。"],["沈委員發惠：陳院長早安。今天早上我們臺灣臺股開盤破2萬點，這是一個里程碑，對臺灣的股市來講是一個里程碑，我想這個也是我們從過去在馬英九總統時代就喊股市2萬點喊到現在，直到今天早上股市開盤終於破2萬點了，我們蔡總統從上任的時候股市8,000點到今天能夠開盤到2萬點，對我們的股市來講當然是一個好消息，在這個時候院長對於臺灣經濟的展望，是不是能夠跟全民大家分享一下？"],["陳院長建仁：好，委員您講得很對，實際上大家都在講股市是一個國家經濟最好的櫥窗，所以我們現在股市進入了2萬點，確實在這8年來臺灣雖然面臨了很多的挑戰，可是在COVID-19的時間，因為我們2,300萬人民大家很努力在政府的領導下做了很好的防疫工作，那一段時間我們的經濟竟然是逆勢成長，所以也使得臺灣的經濟相當地不錯，雖然去年因為國際趨勢的關係有稍微下降，但是整體我們GDP都有大幅的成長，而且更重要的是歲出、歲入盈餘很多，那也是我們全民的努力，希望未來中央跟地方政府一起努力，還有公部門跟私部門一起努力，讓臺灣的經濟愈來愈好。"],["沈委員發惠：謝謝院長。我們作為一個執政團隊，在目前這樣的股市榮景之下，我們還是要更加注意經濟成長的成果能夠讓全民大家共享，並且注意所得分配、抑制通貨膨脹跟平抑物價的相關問題與情形。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我們全力以赴。"],["沈委員發惠：在臺灣股市的整個過程中，我比較關注有關於外資的部分，我這邊有做一個統計是關於我們外資的淨匯入，事實上我這邊從2017年統計到去年，甚至到今年的1月底，除了2022年因為疫情開始的時候，外資持有股票的總市值在比例上有所降低，但絕對值是一直提高，從86億美元到去年已經到294億美元這樣的成長，我們2022年之後也一直成長到今年1月，已經快要回復到將近四成的比例，這部分對臺灣的經濟來講，外資事實上是看好臺灣的經濟。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["沈委員發惠：臺灣今年在亞洲公司治理協會（ACGA）的部分，它評比臺灣的公司治理能力，我們臺灣今年躍居到第三名，跟新加坡並列第三名，僅次於澳洲跟日本，對我們來講，政府要如何在這樣的情況之下更進一步擴大吸引外國資金，這是我所關注的部分。尤其是我們黃主委正好在臺上，黃主委在今年新春團拜的時候提到在這個領域你要跑得比別人快，你用愛麗絲夢遊仙境來講，要跑得比別人快兩、三倍才能超前別人，你在那時候提出五個發展方向，有特別提到「邁向國際：推展臺灣資本市場的成果」，重點是要借鏡主要國家，增加跟外國資本市場的鏈結，這就是我今天要關注的焦點，在借鏡主要國家的部分，是不是請黃主委說明大概有什麼樣借鏡主要國家的想法？"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員的指導。我想大家都希望臺灣在資產管理上、在區域上有一席之地，所以過去這4年我們其實在高端資產方面有一些成長，現在銀行累計資產規模大概在9,000億左右。現在因為賴副總統在競選政見中有提到亞洲資產管理中心的概念，所以在1月13號之後，我有交代同仁要從他的政見上積極努力，尤其是借鏡新加坡、日本或是中東一些資產管理中心的作法。"],["沈委員發惠：對，賴清德副總統在政見裡面有提到，希望讓臺灣成為亞洲的資產管理中心，我們之前也提到借鏡主要國家，主委有提到新加坡跟日本。我在這裡特地提出日本，我看到日本這幾年來對於怎麼樣引進外資、活化國內資產、增加經濟成長動能的部分，他們所做的一些方式，我覺得頗值得借鏡，在這裡也特別跟院長跟主委分享。","關於日本金融廳，他們的岸田首相提出一個上位指導計畫叫做新形式資本主義，他所提出的上位指導計畫中有個資產運用立國實現計畫，在這個資產運用立國實現計畫之下有很多的作法，比較主要跟我們這邊的差別以及我們可以借鏡的部分，包括他們有設置一個次官級，也就是次長級的金融國際審議官，之後再由金融國際審議官成立一個行政法人，叫做日本金融廳的國際金融中心，在這個金融廳下面再設一個金融市場准入辦公室，也就是Financial Market Entry Office，就是當外資要進入金融市場時的一個核准的辦公室，這個辦公室有很多的作為，我把它做了一個整理，最重要的就是一條龍、單一窗口。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["沈委員發惠：所有外資要進入日本，就是單一窗口，它不必去跑很多的單位，就是單一窗口。另外一個跟臺灣最大的差別就是他們可以全英文，所有申請的公文、所有的流程都是全英文，由政府來處理全英文的公文，不用說外資要來日本還必須要透過文字的翻譯，或是文件、法令等等這些，他們不用，因為第一個，他們是單一窗口，第二個就是全英文的審查，甚至不只是相關的行政機關，包括各個公會，他們要求各個公會要直接用英文審查這些外資。","所以在這樣的努力之下，從2021年他們的金融廳開始推動到現在，有34個外資系統機構在日本設立據點，而臺灣從2019年到現在大概只有3家來而已，所以這個部分很值得借鏡。但這裡面有很多是需要跨部會的，不只是金管會的部分，是不是先請院長就這個部分來表示一下意見？"],["陳院長建仁：我們會請國發會跟各部會大家一起來努力，但是您舉的這個例子相當好，我舉一個很簡單的例子來回應，像是科學園區會發展得很好，就是因為它是One Stop Service，到科學園區去申請設廠就很容易，還有全英文化，這也是我們應該可以來努力的方向，我們其實有往這方面在努力。黃主委，你要說明一下嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，其實我們的資本市場雙語化還有便利外資投入都有很多作法，不過很謝謝委員提示日本的作法，我們會立刻交辦同仁去研究，看有甚麼方式可以去強化。"],["沈委員發惠：好，這個部分本來還可以跟院長再進一步討論，不過院長剛剛提到科學園區，這是我接下來想跟院長討論的。我們說借鏡日本的經驗，這次看到台積電在熊本設廠，事實上不只是台積電在熊本設廠，它帶動了整個熊本縣，包括周邊的熊本市、越志市、菊代町和大津町等這些，在當地帶動創造7,000個就業機會，並創造4.3兆日元的財富，這是台積電在熊本設廠，我們所看到它對於日本熊本縣周邊所帶來的相關效應。其實臺灣這幾年科學園區的設置，我們也很希望除了園區本身，它也可以帶動周邊的相關成長。","我們也知道，2月22號有通過桃竹苗大矽谷推動方案，在這個部分，桃園跟新竹都有發展既定的基礎，我特別關心在桃竹苗大矽谷推動方案中苗栗所扮演的角色，現有桃竹苗大矽谷的推動，我知道目前科學園區的部分有竹南科學園區……"],["吳主任委員政忠：竹南跟銅鑼。"],["陳院長建仁：銅鑼。"],["沈委員發惠：竹南跟銅鑼兩個科學園區嘛，在這兩個科學園區之間，苗栗對於桃竹苗大矽谷的推動方案最關心的是，是不是有可能在後龍再設一個科學園區，因為後龍的相關條件，包括交通以及土地取得的條件，在362公頃中有200公頃是國有土地，所以在土地取得的部分並不困難；另外，在交通的部分有國道1號、國道2號，有快速道路72線、61線，整個周邊的交通是相當地便捷，它也能夠串聯整個竹南科學園區到銅鑼科學園區、再加後龍科學園區，把整個苗栗的產業經濟產值帶動起來，這部分是能夠……"],["陳院長建仁：我們請吳主委。"],["沈委員發惠：好。"],["吳主任委員政忠：我跟委員報告，事實上上個月行政院院會通過的桃竹苗大矽谷計畫裡面，苗栗就有包括在裡面，那委員也知道這個科學園區的開設或擴建也必須要地方政府一起來努力嘛。"],["沈委員發惠：對。"],["吳主任委員政忠：事實上大矽谷方案裡面有提到說，如果地方有這樣的需求跟評估，那我們產業有這樣的需求，國科會會配合來推動。"],["沈委員發惠：我看到我們這整個桃竹苗大矽谷的計畫，相關配套的這些交通建設事實上都已經開始了、都已經在做了，但是在這個科學園區的設置上面，到目前一方面沒有定案；另一方面可以說，以我個人的瞭解，目前苗栗的這些科學園區設置，確實在土地取得上面以及相關法令上面，後龍設置科學園區的困難度可能是最低啦，這部分我希望行政院未來就納入桃竹苗大矽谷推動方案能夠做一個審慎的評估、全面的考量，好嘛？院長，是不是……"],["陳院長建仁：好，我想我們會努力來檢討……"],["沈委員發惠：協調包括國發會……"],["陳院長建仁：地方政府其實也扮演滿重要的角色啦。"],["吳主任委員政忠：就是苗栗縣政府這邊跟國科會這邊的科學園區管理局……"],["沈委員發惠：我想地方政府當然扮演重要角色，地方政府的評估一定是比較區域性的去評估，那我們中央政府一定是以整個桃竹苗矽谷計畫整體的配置下來考量。"],["陳院長建仁：對，全盤。"],["吳主任委員政忠：是，會跟……"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分當然要協調、跟地方政府積極的協調，那我們自己本身在評估上面也要有我們自己的看法，好不好？"],["吳主任委員政忠：瞭解。"],["沈委員發惠：院長，謝謝，大家辛苦了。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，非常感謝我們沈委員發惠的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第48號柯委員志恩質詢"]],"agenda":{"page_end":23,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-08"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1130601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.18971875,"end":10.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.20659375,"end":10.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.42159375,"end":14.324093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.00346875,"end":15.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.242843750000002,"end":22.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.52534375,"end":23.976593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.58409375,"end":25.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.76534375,"end":30.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.55784375,"end":31.418468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.418468750000002,"end":31.890968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.71784375,"end":37.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.40471875,"end":40.969718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.712218750000005,"end":42.454718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.60659375,"end":43.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.462843750000005,"end":49.305968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.91346875,"end":50.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.432218750000004,"end":54.45284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.16159375,"end":58.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.29596875,"end":61.557218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.759718750000005,"end":67.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.51409375,"end":75.19221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.56346875,"end":77.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.91346875,"end":127.84221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.94346875000001,"end":129.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.44534375,"end":131.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.26784375,"end":132.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.22534375,"end":138.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.49034375000002,"end":141.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.33784375000002,"end":143.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.24471875,"end":159.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.72534375,"end":146.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.85909375,"end":156.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.31409375,"end":164.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.81534375,"end":167.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.68409375000002,"end":170.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.17721875,"end":172.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.13471875000002,"end":179.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.12096875,"end":181.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.48346875000001,"end":187.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.54596875000001,"end":194.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.05534375000002,"end":197.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.22784375,"end":200.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.42159375,"end":203.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.20159375,"end":219.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.91659375,"end":219.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.24971875000003,"end":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我所關注的在整個台灣股市的過程中,比較關注的是有關於外資的部分。 我這邊有做一個統計,我們外資的淨匯入,"},{"start":173.28,"end":199.84,"text":"事實上從我這邊統計從2017年到去年到去到到甚至到今年的1月到今年的1月底除了這個那個2022年因為疫情開始的時候我們在這個這個外資持有這個股票的這個市值總市值有那個比例上面有有所降低的絕對只是一直一直提高了從86從86億美元到去年已經到294294億美元了這樣子成長了"},{"start":203.544,"end":231.003,"text":"我們這個2022年之後也一直成長到今年1月已經將近快要回復到快要4成的比例了這個部分是對台灣這個經濟來講這個外資事實上是看好台灣的經濟是看好台灣的經濟那我們這個台灣公司的這個這個今年其實在台灣這個亞洲公司治理協會這個ACGA的部分他評比台灣的這個公司治理能力"},{"start":231.598,"end":253.867,"text":"我們臺灣今年也在越居到第三名就是跟新加坡並列第三名這僅次於這個澳洲跟日本那這個這個對我們來講我們要如何政府要如何在這樣的情況之下更進一步擴大吸引外資更大吸引更更更擴大吸引外國資金這是我所關注的部分尤其是我們這個"},{"start":255.923,"end":271.276,"text":"我們黃竹偉現在正好在台上,黃竹偉在今年的這個團拜的時候提到說這個青春團拜的時候提到說在這個領域你要跑得比別人快,你用那個愛麗絲夢遊仙境來講說要跑得比別人快快兩三倍才能超前別人"},{"start":272.457,"end":301.242,"text":"你在那時候提出的這個五個這個發展的方向你就特別提到就是說邁向國際推展臺灣資本市場的成果重點是要接近主要國家增加跟外國資本市場的連結接近主要國家這個就是我今天大概要關注的焦點在接近主要國家的部分我想這個是不是請黃主委大概有什麼樣的有什麼樣接近主要國家的想法"},{"start":304.681,"end":331.715,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我想大家都希望臺灣在資產管理上面在區域上有一席之地那所以過去這四年其實我們也在高端資產方面有一些成長現在銀行累計資產規模大概在9000億左右那我們現在因為賴副總統他在競選政見中有提到亞洲資產管理中心的概念所以在1月13號之後我有交代同仁"},{"start":332.415,"end":332.455,"text":"﹚沈發惠"},{"start":357.052,"end":379.044,"text":"我看到日本這幾年來他們在於怎麼樣引進外資、活化國內的資產、增加經濟成長動能的部分,他們所做的一些方式我覺得頗值得借鏡。在這裡也特別跟院長、主委來分享。日本金融廳他們有一個上位的案件,首相提出這個上位的"},{"start":380.025,"end":406.007,"text":"計劃是叫做新形式的資本主義他所提出來他有一個上位的計劃叫做資產運用立國實現計劃在這個資產運用立國實現計劃之下他大概整個最重要的他有很多種很多的做法那比較主要的跟我們這邊差別就是我們可以接近的包括他們有一個設置的一個次官級就是次長級的一個叫做金融國際審議官"},{"start":408.438,"end":435.592,"text":"他設立一個金融國際審議官之後在這個金融國際審議官他來成立一個行政法人叫做日本金融的日本金融廳的一個國際金融中心在這個金融廳下面在設這個一個金融市場准入辦公室一個financial market entrance office他就是讓專門在外資要進入的時候進入金融市場的時候他的一個一個核准的一個辦公室那這個辦公室呢"},{"start":436.496,"end":463.04,"text":"他的有很多的作為主要大概在我整個把它整理大概就是最重要的一個就是一條龍單一窗口所有外資要進入日本他就單一窗口他不必跑很多的這個單位他就單一窗口另外一個跟台灣最大的差別是他們可以全英文他所有的公文申請的公文所有的流程他所有的都全英文"},{"start":463.974,"end":492.21,"text":"由我們政府來處理這個全英文的公文,不用他們外資要來這個日本之後,他們還要必須要透過文字的翻譯,把文件還要再做這個法令等等這些,他們沒有,他們全部,第一個一個單一窗口,第二個就是全英文的審查。這些全英文的審查,他這個甚至不只是在你相關的行政機關,他包括各個工會,他們都要求各個工會就是直接用英文可以審查他們的這個外資。"},{"start":493.171,"end":521.952,"text":"所以在這樣子的努力之下他們事實上從2021年他們金融廳來開始推動到現在他們有34個外資系統機構在日本設立據點那我們台灣呢我們從2019到現在大概只有3家來所以這部分是很值得借鏡這部分是不是請院長但這裡面有很多事實上要跨部會不只是我們金管會的部分這是不是先請院長就這個部分來"},{"start":522.588,"end":524.81,"text":"我舉一個很簡單的回應,就是像科學園區會發展的很好,他就是one stop services"},{"start":538.564,"end":540.925,"text":"除了資本市場雙語化還有便利外資投入都有很多做法。"},{"start":559.392,"end":588.557,"text":"不過很謝謝委員提示這個日本的這個做法我們會立刻交辦同仁去研究那看有什麼方式可以強化這個部分我本來還可以再跟院長再進一步談不過院長剛剛提到這個科學園區這個接下來我想要想要這個跟院長討論這個我們看到這個我們說接近日本的經驗我們看到這次台積電台積電在熊本設廠他事實上在他"},{"start":589.534,"end":615.333,"text":"只是台積電在熊本社場,它帶動了整個這個熊本縣,包括它周圍周邊的這個熊本市、月資市、橘黛町、大金町等這些相關帶動在當地可以創造7000個就業機會,創造4.3兆日元的財富。這個是台積電在熊本社場我們所看到它對於這個日本熊本縣周邊所帶來的這個相關的效應。"},{"start":620.145,"end":647.731,"text":"其實臺灣這幾年科學園區的設置我們也很希望說這樣子的我們科學園區的設置能夠帶動除了這個園區本身它也可以對周邊帶動這個相關的這些成長那這個我們也知道說我們這個有在2月22號我們有通過這個桃竹苗大細股推動方案桃竹苗大細股推動方案這個部分桃園跟新竹他們都有發展既定的基礎"},{"start":648.663,"end":666.641,"text":"我特別關心就是我們桃竹苗的這個大細股推動方案裡面苗栗所扮演的角色苗栗所扮演的角色這個部分我希望說現在當然這個我們在現有的這個桃竹苗大細股的推動"},{"start":668.851,"end":697.041,"text":"目前這個地方政府就我知道我們現在目前科學園區我們有竹南科學園區竹南跟那個銅鑼銅鑼兩個科學園區在這兩個科學園區之間現在大家對於桃竹苗苗栗對於這個桃竹苗的這個大矽谷的推動最關心的是是不是有可能在後龍再設一個科學園區因為後龍他的相關的條件包括他的這個交通他的交通的條件"},{"start":697.551,"end":697.611,"text":"﹚沈發惠"},{"start":724.198,"end":750.817,"text":"主南科學園區到這個銅鑼科學園區再加上厚隆科學園區把整個苗栗的這個產業經濟產值把它帶動起來這部分是能夠分析那個吳主委我跟那個委員報告事實上那個上個月的那個行政院院會通過的這個桃竹苗大細股計畫裡面這苗栗就有包括在裡面"},{"start":751.715,"end":751.995,"text":"其實事實上齁"},{"start":773.547,"end":792.276,"text":"我看到我們其實整個桃竹苗大肆意股的計畫相關的這些交通其實有相關配套的這些交通建設事實上都已經開始了都已經在做了但是在這個科學園區的設置上面這個到目前這個一方面沒有定案另一方面這個可以說"},{"start":795.014,"end":820.255,"text":"以我個人的了解目前苗栗的這些科學園區的設置確實在土地取得上面以相關法令上面是厚隆設置科學園區是最是他的困難度可能是最低這部分我希望說我們行政院在未來這個整個這個納入這個我們桃竹苗大細股推動方案這能夠做一個審慎的評估全面的考量好不好"},{"start":822.014,"end":837.122,"text":"院長是不是我想我們會來努力檢討協調包括國發會地方政府其實也扮演蠻重要的角色就是說因為苗栗縣政府這邊跟國科會這邊的科學研究管理局"},{"start":837.702,"end":864.507,"text":"我想這個地方政府當然扮演一個重要的角色,那地方政府他的評估他一定是比較區域性的去評估,那我們中央政府一定是這個以整個桃竹苗矽谷計畫整體的配置來下來考量,所以這個部分當然要協調,跟地方政府積極的協調,那我們自己本身我們在評估的上面我們也要我們自己的看法好不好。院長謝謝,謝謝大家辛苦了。"},{"start":871.622,"end":874.145,"text":"謝謝,非常感謝我們沈委員的發會的質詢,謝謝陳院長的備詢。"}]}},{"id":"149600","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149600","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e7383c0ce4a703cc675f4c96217c1ac2d230da91660cc9cbf8ba9b0039caa7a6de874dfe7e2ce6335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"10:26:58 - 10:57:49","影片長度":"00:30:51","會議時間":"2024-03-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-08","duration":1851,"end_time":"2024-03-08T10:57:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-08T10:26:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":599,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時27分）謝謝主席。今天先請院長備詢。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：黃委員早，恭喜你當選立委！"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝院長，院長早。院長，今天是國際三八婦女節，所以本席今天也贈送了在場的女性閣員一束花，並祝賀所有女性國人、婦女同胞，婦女節快樂！當然，今天也是性平三法修正後全面施行上路的首日，行政院在推行修法上也付出許多努力，我昨天有看到院長的一些影片，所以我現在也要送院長一束花，感謝行政團隊在這段期間對於性平三法的付出。"],["陳院長建仁：這件事也要謝謝大院，大院很快的通過了性平三法，所以立法、行政合作可以達到很好的目標。謝謝、感恩！"],["黃委員健豪：回到主題，今天既然是性平三法第一天上路，談到性平，行政院當然是引導各部會在擬定政策計劃跟措施的時候，都要來融入所謂性平的觀點，也要定期進行相關的輔導、考核，包含院長，我也是你的粉絲，我昨天看到你的網路平臺上面有發布一支影片也提到，在性平的議題上面，公部門也應該作為表率，公部門帶領、作為表率之後，各部會、各單位才能做好。但是我們如果去看一下行政院性平委員會的評鑑報告，我們來看看過去這2年期間，行政院各部會的性平成績怎麼樣。院長，我們看一下成績，在32個受評鑑的各部會裡面，有11個單位要嘛乙等、要嘛連續2年乙等，還有不列等的，不列等是什麼意思呢？不列等就是連乙等都不到，乾脆先不評鑑。看到這個成績，院長昨天在影片上面提到希望公部門能作為性平三法的表率，院長看到這樣子的成績，你有什麼樣的想法？"],["陳院長建仁：我想公部門確實應該作為民間機構的表率，對於不列等的這一些，我想我們要來瞭解它的原因，但是我們一定會努力來做好性平的業務，各個部會都要努力來加強，即使是優等以上的也要再繼續精進。"],["黃委員健豪：院長，謝謝。我們期待性平三法上路之後，本來這些不列等的或是本來連續兩年乙等的，明年在評鑑的時候能夠有明確的改善，你們做得到嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們會督促各個部會加緊努力，因為這是全國都要做的，而且更重要的是公部門確實應該作為私部門的表率，我們來努力。"],["黃委員健豪：院長，謝謝。","接下來我要跟院長探討臺中的捷運建設，我作為臺中選出來的區域立委，特別重視臺中的捷運建設。整體來說，我們當然希望臺中的捷運能夠加速核定、增加補助。臺中捷運現在最重要的工程是藍線，2014年第一次送出可行性報告，到今年1月終於核定所謂的綜合規劃報告，中間歷時將近10年的時間。院長跟部長，我要在這邊先簡單的跟你們拜託，從第一階段所謂的可行性規劃到綜合規劃報告的核定，這個叫做書面審查，光是文書來來往往就將近10年的時間。核定之後，院長之前在受訪的時候講過，中央、地方一起合作，這條捷運動工還要再10年，再10年真的等太久，因為光前面的文書作業就將近10年，後面如果再蓋10年，10年後很多民眾都等不到了，他等了一輩子終於等到核定，但是還要再等10年，如果中間又經歷一些物價波動、政策調整，我想這個對臺中人真的非常不公平！院長容我再提醒一下，院長之前在受訪的時候也講過，過去捷運藍線因為有許多爭議，所以來來往往耽誤了一些時間，但在我們看到最終核定的結果，不管是經費上、路線上、站體設置上，似乎跟2023年4月18號交通部函轉行政院審查的站點、路線，甚至經費，其實沒有什麼太大的更動。我要拜託院長未來行政院在審查相關業務的時候，還是以尊重交通部的專業為主。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：事實上，交通部送來是去年4月18號，您的簡報也有……"],["黃委員健豪：對，經歷286天。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，但是送到行政院來的時候，我們利用最短的時間，雖然中間有一些些疑慮，也透過交通部跟市政府做了溝通、討論，釐清以後就很快的核定。至少在行政院這個部分，我們……"],["黃委員健豪：我就這樣講，希望釐清的速度能夠快一點。既然交通部審查通過，我相信部長很專業，審查委員也專業，大家都很專業，送到行政院，如果經費上沒有太大問題、錢也夠，就趕快同意、趕快蓋。"],["陳院長建仁：我請部長簡單再說明一下。"],["王部長國材：事實上，國發會審查也提出很好的提醒，就是沙鹿鐵路高架跟它的關係……"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係，這段細節我知道，我們就不用在這邊討論了，我們只是拜託未來早點討論。"],["王部長國材：這部分後來……"],["陳院長建仁：專業考量……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：市政府也跟我們有很好的溝通。"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係。這個東西已經翻頁了，過去就算了！我們只是希望未來……"],["陳院長建仁：委員關心未來……"],["黃委員健豪：效率上能夠來提升……"],["陳院長建仁：未來還是中央跟地方……"],["黃委員健豪：對，拜託！"],["陳院長建仁：一定要好好合作才有辦法加速。"],["黃委員健豪：一直講好好合作，進到下一個階段。既然要開始動工了，我們之前在記者會上及與各部會的溝通提過，臺中捷運看起來地方的負擔比例比較高、工程時間比較長，為什麼我會這樣講？因為在交通部當初那一份紙本報告裡面，全國各地有12+6條捷運建設陸陸續續都在興建，本席也看了那份報告，多數捷運興建的速度、期程都相對比較快一點，臺中捷運地方負擔比例比較高、工程時間比較拉長，當然這是牽涉到你們說的各縣市政府的財力不同，所以有這樣的差別。但是我們來看各地方政府的自償率跟非自償經費的補助比例表，財政級次一級的是臺北市，二級的是臺中跟新北，桃園、臺南、高雄屬於三級。從這一份比例表，我們會發覺一件事情，院長，好像財政能力越好的地方，政府得到的補助反而比較少，這會不會變相鼓勵大家在財政上不用太積極，反正中央會補助，如果很積極地改善了地方財政，但因為你相對經濟比較寬裕，所以中央在軌道建設上、在捷運建設上的補助就比較少？","當然，財政劃分的部分是依據地方制度法跟財政收支劃分法，但財政收支劃分法和地方制度法有一個落差，地方制度法從民國88年以後到現在，經歷了14次的修正；財政收支劃分法從民國88年到現在，一次都沒有修，所以依據這兩套法律定出的分級標準，一個法律是已經變了14次，而另一個法律卻都還沒有修過。部長，我今天不是要討論財政收支劃分法的整體規劃，這個以後我們再跟你討論，我們今天先針對捷運的部分，我要拜託院長，是不是可能往這個方向來修正，即同不同意財政收支劃分法跟分級制度應該要有所調整，不應該在地方財政改善好之後，受到的補助反而變得更少。院長，你怎麼看？"],["陳院長建仁：財政劃分法剛才您也提過，這確實有討論過好多次，但是都沒有通過，這裡面原因很多，最近財政部已經定出六項原則，我想我們再作通盤的考慮。不過在這裡也要跟委員報告，自償率的部分當時已經是這樣定下來，剛才你前一個表提到臺中負擔比例比較高，實際上是自償的部分你也放在裡面，而自償本來就是地方政府會從這裡得到一些收入，所以這個58%的部分，我想應該要考慮到自償的部分。"],["黃委員健豪：好，院長，當然沒問題啦！如果說自償比例比較高，當然地方政府會需要負擔一些，但是我們提到的是工程面，在第一階段的工程面，像興建費用，我簡單說明，我當過臺中市議員，我們一年的財政預算大概是2,000億，但是蓋一條藍線，當然它是分梯次，但是占臺中市政府的預算比例是蠻高的，一年預算才2,000億，蓋一條捷運，臺中市就要負擔一千多億，我想這個對臺中市的財政一定會有很大的困難……"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告……"],["黃委員健豪：但對中央政府而言，比例則沒有很高，所以我們希望在這個比例上，是不是能夠多照顧、多提升臺中捷運的建設？"],["陳院長建仁：我們請主計長簡單講一下。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，有關政府財力升級，主計總處跟各地方政府有一個協調，以臺中市來講，他的財力有第三級，因為努力由第三級變成第二級，所以我們有給他3億元的獎勵金……"],["黃委員健豪：3億元喔！欸！捷運1,000億呢，你給我3億元！"],["朱主計長澤民：第1年1.5億，第2年1億，第3年0.5億，而且我們已經在撥款中，謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：好啦！主計長，謝謝啦！沒關係啦！3億實在不太夠啦！針對捷運建設本身，我們還是希望經費上能夠有比較明顯的增加，來補貼、補助地方財政。我想臺中的人口非常非常多……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，報告委員，如果有自償的部分，他將來會有收入，所以我們為什麼鼓勵地方政府多開發自償的部分，自償如果增加，我們的補助也會提高。您剛剛有一個表，第二個表那邊就可以看到，所以我們也是鼓勵自償。事實上，臺中因為都市比較繁榮，所以他自償比較高，而我們在補助的比例上，同一個級距之下，也是補助比較多，邏輯是這樣子。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，後續還有其他線，藍線就先這樣子。接下來我們看橘線，臺中巨蛋在下禮拜一要正式準備動工興建，3月11日即將動工，捷運橘線2023年9月14日可行性研究也報部審查，我想請問院長還有部長，如果3月11日動工，蓋巨蛋需要時間，而臺中捷運橘線相關站體也會經過這個地方，我們有沒有可能期待未來臺中的捷運橘線審查能夠加速？不要像我剛剛提到的，光藍線啊！送進去是2014年，出來已是2024年了；2023年橘線送院裡審查、送部裡審查，會不會到2033年這個捷運橘線才會通過行政院的核定，又過了10年？"],["陳院長建仁：可行性研究的過程，如果路線規劃得合適，當然交通部的審查會比較快，如果審查有一些意見，當然會回到市政府去，市政府也要趕快回復。你剛才講得很好，就是中央和地方一定都要加緊程序，如果地方有稍微延擱，可行性研究也會比較長。關於這個部分，我請交通部來簡單說一下。"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，事實上我們在今年1月23號已經把意見給臺中市政府，主要意見就是橘線跟藍線是共用系統，它們共用龍井機廠。它的構軌有一點問題，就是怎麼轉到藍線這個部分，所以我們從技術上給它一些建議，它送上來我們就按照相關行政程序趕快來審查。"],["陳院長建仁：所以委員你現在可以請地方政府也趕快研議。"],["黃委員健豪：我們都會一起啦，雙方都要加速研議，我在這邊也要拜託儘速進入實質審查，就是要文件往返少一點，大家趕快見面談一談，把有爭議的地方趕快談完，針對有問題的地方，技術面、工程面兩邊都有專家，現場如果能夠把它談完，趕快解決，就不用公文往返這麼多次。我想過去不管是捷運藍線也好，還是捷運綠線也好，都是因為書面的公文往返上面有一些延宕，大家各自有各自的意見、各自有各自的專業，當然過去的事情可以當作經驗，未來我們希望這種公文往返的程序能夠少一點，這也是民眾對於行政院、對於政府部門效率的期待。大家常常在談臺灣的公共工程，為什麼做一條捷運或做一項公共工程要拖這麼久？就像我剛剛提到的，如果光書面審查都要過10年……我想工程它有硬體的限制，沒辦法，它可能真的要花點時間；但是在書面審查上，文字的來往、技術的交換，如果能夠比10年更短、壓縮得更快的話，我想對於臺灣許多重大建設才有幫助。","接下來要提到的一樣是臺中的捷運，臺中捷運正在努力發展當中，有一條捷運綠線延伸到大坑，我今天也要來跟部長及院長確認一件事情，因為先前在媒體上面有二種不同的說法，一種是說捷運綠線延伸到大坑，需要同步完成彰東擴大都市計畫的核定，但後來又說核定可行性研究後，現在綜合規劃不會受到彰化段的影響，所以如果有審定就可以進行下一階段。我想要在大院裡面確定一件事情，到底捷運綠線延伸到大坑的部分，有沒有要配合延伸到彰化的彰東都市計畫？還是兩段可以分開同步來進行？"],["陳院長建仁：我想彰化縣政府也很積極的希望跟臺中市政府一起把這一條綠線完成，藉著這個，我們希望在綜合規劃核定之前，彰東的部分就要決定好它的擴大都市計畫。關於這一個部分，實際上彰化縣長也很積極在推動，所以我們目前規劃的情況、預計的情形是你說的上面那一個……"],["黃委員健豪：所以要等？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["黃委員健豪：要等彰東？"],["陳院長建仁：基本上，我們也希望彰化縣政府能夠加緊腳步，因為……"],["黃委員健豪：那在等待的過程中，能不能先審別的？"],["陳院長建仁：在綜合規劃的過程當中，如果前面那一段做好了，後面那一段沒有的話，那整個的建造經費、規劃的情況以及怎麼樣劃分兩邊的捷運經費，這個會產生一些……"],["黃委員健豪：院長，我確認一下你的說法，所以你的意思是說在現階段以捷運綠線延伸到大坑和彰化這兩段，它必須等待彰東都市計畫完成之後，我們才能夠進行綜合規劃嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不是，綜合規劃核定前要做完，綜合規劃就是現在大家都在做的，差不多1年嘛！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，就是原則上啦！因為可行性分析是整段核定，所以原則上應該是整段的綜合規劃送上來，我們來審，但是也不排除必要的時候……但是這個還是要審查啦，是否可以把它切成兩段來做綜合審查……"],["黃委員健豪：在時程上面，我們當然希望儘快來審查相關的……"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們也要拜託彰化縣政府要……"],["黃委員健豪：你去拜託，我沒辦法。","再來，為什麼我今天要特別把捷運放在我這個重要的質詢裡面？我給大家看一下人口結構，院長，根據你的財產申報，你的住家應該是位在中正區，在全臺灣的人口比例上面，我排出了前20名人口密度高的地區，以行政區來劃分，前20名不管在新北、在高雄、在臺北這些都會區，都是人口密集區，臺中在全國前20名人口密集區也占了3個，但是有什麼特點呢？就是這前20名的其他城市都有捷運建設，臺中我們剛剛劃到的至少3個區、人口密度排名全國前20名的3個區域，完全沒有捷運建設。所以這部分為什麼今天要特別提出來，就是希望行政院看到這個人口結構的比例，能夠多照顧臺中的捷運建設，這是今天最重要本席希望能夠達到的目的。","所以我想拜託院長，未來在施政上面，雖然你一直強調你5月19日就要離職了，但是我希望這個政策如同您講的，行政院的工作不會停下來，會一棒接一棒……"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["黃委員健豪：所以未來行政院的政策上面、在捷運政策上是不是能夠多照顧我們臺中市，不管經費上也好、速度上也好？"],["陳院長建仁：我想站在中央政府的立場，我們是照顧所有22縣市的交通建設，但是臺中因為它捷運建設得比較晚，所以現在要增加的部分一定會相對於像臺北市、新北市會來得更多，我們按照評估以後，就好像你這樣很好的評估以後，我們會來看哪一個地方需要再加強，我們一定會努力來做。"],["黃委員健豪：我們落後很多了，所以拜託，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：對，好。"],["黃委員健豪：接下來有一個時事題要來請教一下院長。現在醫療的掛號費要漲、電費要漲，我想3月的CPI指數也不是很好看，預計下週你要來召開所謂的物價會議。我想問一下院長，會不會在520之前把該漲的全部漲一漲？或者是院長你能不能跟民眾、跟國人來報告，到底從現在開始到520之前還有什麼要漲，要不要一次預告完，讓市場上預期心理不要一直今天說要漲電價，我先調一次；改天說要漲掛號費，我再調一次；後天又說要漲別的價錢，再調一次？因為現在看起來好像520之前，該漲的會全部把它漲完，520之前還有什麼要漲，院長可以跟大家報告一下嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想掛號費說是要漲不完全正確，實際上這個……"],["黃委員健豪：部分正確嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：對啦，部分正確，因為衛福部只是把上限拿開，然後地方政府、地方衛生局不必要做審查、報備的工作，但是現在有很多像五大醫院的協會也說他們不會調漲的部分……"],["黃委員健豪：院長，我想這新聞上面……"],["陳院長建仁：電費的部分也要看審議委員會……"],["黃委員健豪：院長，這新聞上你解釋很多，我都有看，但是我現在是確認不管是掛號費的解封也好、電價即將可能上漲也好，我現在問的是說520之前、在你離職之前還會不會漲別的東西？"],["陳院長建仁：應該不會吧。"],["黃委員健豪：應該不會，還是不會？"],["陳院長建仁：像你講的大宗物資在漲……"],["黃委員健豪：院長，大宗物資在漲，對呀！"],["陳院長建仁：大宗物資……"],["黃委員健豪：大宗物資跟著電價可能要漲，所以期待……所以我在問說，會漲什麼是不是一次先預告清楚，市場上也不會有這麼多奇奇怪怪的事情……"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，現在國際間大宗物資是在往下的，是在往下……"],["陳院長建仁：對啦。"],["朱主計長澤民：所以國內不會漲。"],["陳院長建仁：對啦。"],["黃委員健豪：確定喔？"],["朱主計長澤民：確定、確定，黃小玉，黃豆、小麥、玉米。"],["黃委員健豪：主計長，謝謝。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝你的承諾。所以520之前不會漲了喔？"],["陳院長建仁：對，所以我剛才才說大宗物資好像不是這樣啦。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，院長，數字我們再確認一下……"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["黃委員健豪：但是我們要得到一個確認，就是520之前是不是不會再漲？"],["陳院長建仁：我想520之前電費的部分確實需要經過電價審議委員會……"],["黃委員健豪：現在我就講除了電費跟掛號費即將解封之外，現在民眾已經知道這兩件事情了，那還有什麼？還是沒有了？"],["陳院長建仁：如果是公營事業的部分，沒有，不過我不能夠保證私營的，像譬如說外食費會不會漲，我想我們不能夠保證，但是以我們的公營事業……"],["黃委員健豪：原物料、公營事業……"],["陳院長建仁：公營事業的部分，應該電費是我們現在在考慮的唯一項目。"],["黃委員健豪：好，院長，謝謝。接下來要討論很多民眾很關心的社會住宅政策問題，我想跟院長確認一個概念，以先進國家的低標，社會住宅占住宅整體存量應該達到5%這句話你認同嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想要看那個國家土地的價格還有房屋的價格而定。"],["黃委員健豪：好，那我國就好，不管別人，我國。"],["陳院長建仁：我想以5%應該算是基本。"],["黃委員健豪：好，我看到現在的存量，現在全國社會住宅興辦的進度，這是來自於內政部不動產資訊中心的統計，實際上可以入住的是大概是29,182戶，大約3萬戶左右，所以距離5%還是有一段落差，當然我的立場一樣，過去的事情就算了，就是過去大家努力，但未來要繼續來合作。從這個數字上來看，地方政府非常努力，中央政府有一點努力，但是還有一件事情，除了中央政府跟地方政府來興建社會住宅之外，有一條路徑，我不知道各位還記不記得，住宅法是在民國100年施行公布，其中有一條叫做民間興建社會住宅，我想請問一下院長，你知不知道這13年民間興建社會住宅的數量有多少？"],["陳院長建仁：確實現在有民間興建社宅的這個部分，我們請內政部林部長來回答，已經有一些很好的案例。"],["黃委員健豪：我有說興建喔！不是包租代管。"],["林部長右昌：是，我跟委員回復，民間興辦社會住宅的部分目前是沒有。"],["黃委員健豪：是零，對不對？興建的部分是零。"],["林部長右昌：不過我要講的是，社會住宅其實最重要的一個困難是在土地的取得。"],["黃委員健豪：我知道。"],["林部長右昌：目前我們政府在興建社會住宅的時候，現在其實都是用公家的土地，所以土地的取得是一個先決條件。這部分我們在去年的時候也跟譬如包括有一些宗教團體或者包括有一些社會福利團體，我們現在正主動積極的跟他們做聯繫，因為對象必需清楚，才有辦法推動。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，謝謝。這些在新聞上我也看到你們非常努力，我知道，我是要提醒除了公部門，除了中央地方之外，還有一條路徑叫做民間興辦，怎麼樣鼓勵民間興辦，在這個法令裡面，其中有一條我提醒大家，還有一個叫行政法人興辦社會住宅使用非公有土地可以獲得1.5倍容積獎勵，這或許就是個方向，為什麼民間不願意蓋？我想最明確的原因是它沒有誘因，我講坦白的，公部門當然不用談論利潤、不用談論利益的問題，但是你要鼓勵民間興辦社會住宅，住宅法裡面也有相關的規定，你要怎麼樣鼓勵民間興辦社會住宅，如果今天行政法人有這樣子的容積獎勵，民間興辦你要給他多少的容積獎勵？你要給他多少的誘因？我覺得這是接下來施政上面可能可以往前的方向，不然中央努力在蓋、地方努力在蓋，但是你都要用公有土地來蓋的話，關於效率和速度，從這些年的速度看起來的確很難達成，如果能夠讓民間的力量來加入，是不是有可能能夠加速來推動臺灣社會住宅的數量？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們請專家來回答。"],["林部長右昌：是，這當然是一個路徑，不過剛剛提到就是土地的問題必須先解決，我們會來積極跟有興趣或者有意願的這些公法人或者團體或者行政法人來洽談可行性，另外這個應該是一個複合性，比如像最近我們有許多私立學校退場等等，其實政府都有在研議考慮相關土地資源的一個合理使用。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長謝謝。院長，接下來還有別的題目，時間不多了，我想問一下院長跟我們在座的閣員，有聽過「故宮100＋」可以舉手一下嗎？好，都沒有。院長，請問一下你有帶手機在身上嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：有。"],["黃委員健豪：院長，我麻煩你可不可以搜尋一下「故宮100＋」這幾個字？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我搜尋一下。"],["黃委員健豪：你搜尋看看，看你搜尋的結果跟我搜尋的有沒有一樣。搜尋的結果是不是都是北京故宮為主？"],["陳院長建仁：顯示「故宮100」是中國大陸暨2003以後……"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝院長，沒關係，我要提出來的原因是什麼？因為這個「故宮100＋」是明年我們臺北故宮100週年系列活動的名稱，所以今年已經2024年了，明年臺北故宮要滿100週年，但是以100週年的大活動來講，理論上現在的行銷宣傳應該開始，但是這「故宮100＋」也是官方的名稱，但到目前為止如果要搜尋，如果外國觀光客想要訂機票，想要來瞭解臺北故宮100週年的系列活動，他用Google搜尋是找不到相關紀錄的，我們提到我們跟故宮也要過相關的資料，回復我們裡面也提到說明年100週年包含要展出宋版畫、西園雅集，這個都是之前就展過了，那也提到說要去法國跟捷克參展，但是我昨天看故宮在質詢的時候，提到去捷克參展是因為疫情的關係所以延後，表示你等於在另外一個場合的回答，意思就是說這個跟100週年其實沒有明確的相關性，故宮100週年理論上我們是應該吸引國人之外，各國觀光客能夠來故宮看所謂的故宮100年有什麼樣的特展也好，有什麼樣的展品也好，但是我們卻把所謂的去法國參展、去捷克參展當成故宮100週年的系列活動之一，就讓人家開玩笑講說是不是故宮要鼓勵大家法捷首選行程飽覽故宮百年院？"],["陳院長建仁：我想不是這樣，我想故宮跟世界上大的這一些展示機構來合作實際上相當重要，譬如說我們到日本去展示相關的故宮古物以後，哇！很多的日客就會來到臺灣，到法國展出的時候也是一樣，因為我就有朋友從日本跟法國來，我想這也是其中的一部分，但是需要更大的加強。"],["黃委員健豪：院長，當然，我想要強調的是例行性地去國外參展我們非常支持，但是到底故宮100週年的展覽，就像我剛剛提到的，昨天我們故宮在答詢的時候提到捷克其實不是針對100，它是剛好明年100年，所以我希望我們在規劃100週年的時候能夠更細緻一點，包含說我們的觀光人數，最高峰的時候有達到529萬人，去年是一百五十多萬人，你希望明年能夠達到250萬的觀光人口、來院人口，所以等於今年跟去年要增加100萬，那這100萬到底哪來？我想這是非常嚴肅的話題，我們希望故宮100週年能夠把它辦好可以嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：報告委員，故宮100的話，基本上是我在去年1月上任之後開始規劃的，這個部分的話就從館史、大事記，然後包括出版、展覽都有一些規劃。"],["主席：跟黃委員報告，因為時間關係，可不可以請故宮博物院送相關書面資料給您好嗎？"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["主席：好，非常感謝黃委員健豪的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的答詢。","接下來我們請登記第47號沈委員發惠質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":23,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-08"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1130601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12.94034375,"end":13.902218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14.610968750000001,"end":16.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17.024093750000002,"end":17.395343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17.445968750000002,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25.64721875,"end":27.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27.03096875,"end":27.351593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":27.95909375,"end":29.157218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":29.79846875,"end":42.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":43.38284375,"end":46.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":46.470968750000004,"end":48.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":49.45784375,"end":54.587843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":54.891593750000006,"end":62.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":58.469093750000006,"end":58.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":62.55284375,"end":62.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":62.99159375000001,"end":63.31221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":63.93659375000001,"end":73.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":83.66346875,"end":90.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":90.97034375000001,"end":114.15659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":114.22409375000001,"end":115.27034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":115.62471875000001,"end":118.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":118.94909375,"end":119.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":120.14721875000001,"end":122.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":122.94846875,"end":126.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":126.62721875000001,"end":131.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":131.95971875,"end":132.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":132.78659375,"end":134.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":135.89159375,"end":139.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":140.36346875,"end":141.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":142.33784375000002,"end":142.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":143.31659375,"end":143.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":144.12659375,"end":144.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":145.30784375000002,"end":146.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":147.53534375,"end":148.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":148.75034375,"end":149.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":150.18471875,"end":152.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":152.68221875,"end":153.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":153.62721875,"end":154.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":155.44971875000002,"end":156.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":156.96846875,"end":157.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":157.45784375000002,"end":158.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":159.17909375000002,"end":166.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":166.46909375,"end":187.39409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":187.39409375000002,"end":187.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":187.78221875,"end":187.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":187.79909375000003,"end":188.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":188.03534375,"end":198.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":198.21096875,"end":198.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":198.68346875,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":198.97034375,"end":210.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":210.36096875,"end":210.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":210.46221875,"end":210.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":210.47909375,"end":215.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":210.51284375,"end":211.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":219.86159375000003,"end":223.20284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":223.62471875000003,"end":224.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":225.07596875000002,"end":225.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":225.97034375,"end":235.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":235.26846875,"end":235.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":235.33596875,"end":246.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":235.35284375,"end":235.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":246.69284375,"end":251.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":252.10971875,"end":252.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":253.52721875,"end":256.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":256.49721875,"end":257.3747187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合定之後,院長之前在受訪的時候也講過,因為中央地方一起合作,這條捷運動工還要再10年。"},{"start":275.041,"end":291.051,"text":"所以我們當然希望在10年真的等太久因為光前面的文書作業就將近了10年後面如果再蓋10年真的是10年後我想很多這個民眾也等都等不到他等了一輩子終於等到核定但是他還要再等10年"},{"start":291.471,"end":318.044,"text":"如果中間又經歷過一些物價波動、政策調整,我想這個對台中人真的非常的不公平。但院長我也要容我再提醒一下,院長之前在受訪的時候也講過說過去捷運南線是因為有許多爭議的部分,所以大家來往往的耽誤了一些時間。但是在我們看到的最終核定的結果,不管是經費上、路線上、站體設置上,似乎"},{"start":318.584,"end":320.385,"text":"報言事實上交通部送來是去年的4月18日"},{"start":345.201,"end":362.927,"text":"您這邊也有嘛,所以我們...對啊,就經歷286天啊。對對,但是後來行政院來的時候,我們利用最短的時間內,中間有一些些疑慮啦,那也透過交通部跟市政府這邊有做了溝通討論,那釐清以後就很快的核定。好,那我就這樣講嘛,希望這個釐清的速度會快一點。"},{"start":364.748,"end":386.255,"text":"因為既然交通部審查通過,我相信部長很專業,審查委員也專業,大家都很專業,送到行政院,如果經費上沒有太大問題,錢也夠,就趕快同意,趕快幹。我們請部長簡單再說一下。我想國安會事實上審查也提供一個很好的提醒,就是我們殺戮鐵路高架跟他的關係。沒關係,這段細節我知道,我們就不用再討論了。我們只是拜託未來早點討論。專業考量。對,溝通了。"},{"start":392.777,"end":396.401,"text":"我們之前在記者會上在各個部會公路上面我們也提過"},{"start":417.701,"end":442.378,"text":"這個臺中的捷運看起來地方的負擔比例比較高,工程時間比較長。為什麼會這樣講?因為在交通部的這個業務報告裡面當初那一份紙本的文件裡面有12加6條,12加6條全國各地的捷運建設陸陸續續都在興建。那本席也看了那份報告,去多數的捷運的速度興建的期程相對的都相對比較快一點。"},{"start":442.958,"end":461.608,"text":"那台中的這個結餘地方負擔比例比較高工程時間比較拉長當然這是牽涉到你們說這是各縣市的政府政府的財政財力不同所以有這樣的這個轉變但是我們來看到這個下一頁我們看到各地方政府的自償率跟非自償經費的補助比例表啊"},{"start":463.356,"end":475.651,"text":"一級的財政是臺北市二級的話臺中跟新北桃園、台南、高雄屬於三級在這一份的財力分配表上面我們會覺得一件事情院長"},{"start":477.227,"end":503.32,"text":"好像財政能力越好的地方政府得到的補助反而會比較少這會變相的有一種鼓勵大家財政上不用太積極反正中央會補助而如果積極的改善了我們地方的財政但是因為你相對經濟比較寬裕所以說中央在軌道建設上面在捷運建設上面的補助比較少那當然這個財政劃分的部分是依據這個"},{"start":505.481,"end":527.744,"text":"地方制度法跟這個財政收支劃分法那這個財政收支劃分法跟地方制度法有一個落差地方制度法從這個民國88年以後到現在激勵了14次的修正14次那財政收支劃分法從民國88年到現在一次都沒有修所以依據這兩套法律定出來的分期的標準"},{"start":529.07,"end":544.497,"text":"一句這樣法律定出來的分析標準一個法律已經變了14次了一個法律都還沒有修過今天部長我今天沒有要討論這個財政收支劃分法的這個整體的規劃這個以後我們再來跟討論我們今天先針對捷運的部分這是我要拜託院長"},{"start":545.217,"end":561.835,"text":"是不是可能往這個方向來修正?同不同意財政收支劃分法跟這個分級制度應該要有所調整?不應該說我地方財政的改善好之後我反而我受到的補助變得更少?院長你怎麼看?我想財政劃分法剛才您也提過齁那這個確實"},{"start":562.756,"end":564.978,"text":"臺中負擔比例比較高。 臺中負擔比例比較高。 臺中負擔比例比較高。"},{"start":590.84,"end":598.569,"text":"議員長當然沒問題啦,如果說市場比例比較高,當然地方政府會需要負擔一些,但是我們提到是工程面,在第一階段工程面,像這個新建費我簡單說明一下,"},{"start":613.064,"end":634.247,"text":"臺中市我當過議員我們一年的財政的這個預算大概兩千億但是該條藍線當然他是分梯次但是這占臺中市政府的這個這個比例蠻高的一年預算才兩千億該條捷運臺中市就要負擔一千多億我想這個對臺中市的財政的確是會有一定很大程度的困難但這個對中央政府啊我想這不是"},{"start":634.787,"end":635.007,"text":"主席董事長"},{"start":659.551,"end":684.962,"text":"有給他3億元的獎勵金,分3億,第一年1.5,第二年1億,第三年0.5,而且我們已經在撥款中,謝謝。好啦,主席長,謝謝啦,沒關係啦,3億實在是不太夠啦,我還是希望我們針對捷運建設本身,我還是希望經費上能夠有比較明顯的這個增加來補貼,來補助這地方財政,我想台中的人口非常非常的多啊。"},{"start":685.482,"end":705.602,"text":"對因為報告委員如果有自償的部分他就將來會有收入所以我們是為什麼鼓勵地方政府都開發自償的部分所以在自償如果增加的話我們補助也會提高您剛剛有一個表那邊就可以看到所以我們也是鼓勵自償那因為台中他的自償事實上他"},{"start":709.24,"end":734.837,"text":"所以我們在補助的這個比例,同一個級距之下也是有補助比較多。沒關係,這個我後續還有其他線,藍線先這樣子,那接下來我們看到這個橘線,我想這個台中在下禮拜一要來巨蛋要來正式的來準備動工興建,台中3月11即將動工,那這個捷運橘線2023年的9月14號也送進了這個可能性研究來報部審查,"},{"start":736.378,"end":755.863,"text":"我們想問的是,院長還有我們部長,如果3月11要動工,那巨蛋蓋也需要時間,那這個臺中捷運局線,它也會經過相關的這個站體,也會經過這個地方,所以我們有沒有可能期待的是未來臺中在捷運局線上面,它的審查能夠加速,不要再像是我剛剛提到的,當藍線送進去2014年,出來2024年了,"},{"start":759.384,"end":788.702,"text":"今年是2024年,2023年的時候局限送到院理審查,送到部理審查,會不會到2033年這個捷運局限才會通過行政院核定,因為過了10年。可行性研究的過程,如果路線規劃的合適,那交通部當然會審查,審查會比較快,那如果審查有一些意見,那當然會回去到市政府,市政府也要趕快回覆,所以這個是,你剛才講的很好,就是中央地方一定都要加緊程序,"},{"start":789.122,"end":803.278,"text":"如果地方有稍微嚴苛也會可行性也會比較長那這個部分我請交通部來說簡單說一下我們事實上9月14號我們在今年的1月23號已經把意見給台中市政府"},{"start":804.199,"end":819.979,"text":"主要的意見就是說橘線跟藍線是共用系統,然後共用龍井機場,它的購軌有一點問題,怎麼轉到藍線這個部分,所以我們從技術上給他一些建議,那他送上來我們就按照行政程序趕快來審查。"},{"start":820.72,"end":838.533,"text":"所以現在委員你可以請地方政府也趕快研議。我們都會請啦,雙方那邊要研議加速,這邊也要拜託進入實質審查。文件往返少一點,大家趕快見面談一談,把有爭議的地方趕快談完,有問題的地方"},{"start":839.674,"end":868.831,"text":"技術面、工程面兩邊都有專家現場如果能夠把台灣趕快解決就不用公文往返這麼多事因為想過去不管是捷運藍線也好還是捷運綠線也好都是因為書面的往返公文上面有一些這個延宕所以大家各自有各自的意見各自有各自的專業當然這過去當作經驗未來我們希望這種往返公文往返的程序能夠少一點這也是民眾對於行政院對政府部門的期待對政府部門的效率的期待"},{"start":869.531,"end":885.689,"text":"因為這個在臺灣的公共工程為什麼做一條捷運或是做一條公共工程要拖這麼久就像我剛剛提到的如果說書面審查都要過10年我想這工程它是有硬體的限制沒辦法它可能真的要花點時間但是書面審查上面文字的來往"},{"start":886.189,"end":886.389,"text":"﹚黃健豪﹚"},{"start":908.004,"end":933.595,"text":"在這個媒體上面有兩種不同的說法一種是說這個捷運綠線延伸到這個大坑需要同步完成張東的擴大都市計畫的核定但後來又講說核定可行性研究後未來就是現在啦現在綜合規劃不會受到彰化段的影響所以如果審定就可以進行下一階段我想要在這個大院裡面來確定一件事情到底"},{"start":935.136,"end":945.733,"text":"結綠線延伸大坑的部分有沒有要配合延伸到彰化的那個彰多都市企劃區還是以及兩段可以分開的同步的進行?"},{"start":947.238,"end":974.559,"text":"我想彰化縣政府也很積極的希望跟臺中市政府這一邊一起把這一條綠線來完成。所以我們希望在綜合規劃核定之前這個張東的這個部分就要來決定好他的擴大都市計畫。那這個部分實際上彰化縣政府的縣長也很積極在推動。所以我們目前的"},{"start":976.18,"end":998.517,"text":"規劃的情況,預計的情形是你上面的那一個。 所以要等?對,基本上我們也希望彰化縣政府能夠加緊腳步,因為在整個綜合規劃的過程當中,如果前面那一段做好了,後面那一段沒有的話,那整個的介紹的經費等等規劃的情況,還有怎麼樣劃分那一個兩邊的捷運的經費,"},{"start":1007.323,"end":1025.152,"text":"院長我確認一下你的說法,所以你意思說在現階段以捷運綠線延伸到大坑和彰化這兩段,他是要必須等待彰東都市計畫完成之後我才能夠進行綜合規劃嗎?不是不是,綜合規劃核定前要做完,綜合規劃就是現在大家都在規劃,差不多就一年嘛。"},{"start":1027.973,"end":1053.53,"text":"發言委員就是原則上因為可行性分析是整段合併所以原則上應該是整段的綜合規劃送上來我們來審但是也不排除必要的時候但是這個還是要審查是否可以把它切成兩段來做綜合審查在時程上面我們當然希望盡快的來審查這個相關的所以說我們也要來拜託總統管政部要考慮"},{"start":1058.073,"end":1081.486,"text":"來我們看到為什麼今天特別要提把捷運放在我這個重要的這個職區裡面我給大家看一下這個人口結構我想院長你根據你的這個財產申報你的這個住家應該是位在所謂中正區那在全台灣的人口比例上面我排除了前20名人口密度高的這個地區以行政區來劃分前20名不管在新北在高雄在台北"},{"start":1083.01,"end":1094.577,"text":"這些都會區都是人口密集區。臺中在全國前20名人口密集區也佔了3個。但是什麼特點呢?就是前20名的其他城市它都有捷運建設。"},{"start":1095.677,"end":1095.877,"text":"拜託院長"},{"start":1118.973,"end":1134.673,"text":"未來在這個施政上面雖然你一直強調說你5月19就要離職啦但是我想希望這個政策如同你講的行政院的工作不會停下來一棒接一棒所以未來行政院的政策上面在捷運政策上是不是能夠多照顧我們台中市不管經費上也好"},{"start":1136.394,"end":1164.361,"text":"我想站在中央政府的立場我們是照顧所有的22縣市的交通的建設但是臺中因為他捷運的建設的比較晚所以現在要增加的部分一定會相對於已經像臺北市新北市會來的更多那我們按照這個評估以後就好像你這樣很好的評估以後我們會來看哪一個地方需要再加強我們一定會我們落後很多啦所以拜託好不好"},{"start":1164.801,"end":1191.433,"text":"好,接下來有一個實事題要來請教一下我們院長。這個現在我們這個健保費,對不起不是健保費,醫療的光耗費要漲,電費要漲,那我想三月的CPI指數也不是很好看,那我想預計下週也要來召開所謂的物價的會議。我想問一下院長,會不會在520之前把該漲的全部漲一漲,或者是院長能不能跟民眾跟國人來報告,"},{"start":1192.634,"end":1205.85,"text":"到底從現在開始到520之前還有什麼要漲要不要一次預告完讓這個市場上預期心理不要一直今天說要漲電價我先調一次改天說要漲掛號費我再調一次後天又說要漲別的價錢再調一次"},{"start":1209.209,"end":1238.193,"text":"我問你之前,因為現在看起來好像我問你之前該漲會全部把它漲完,那我問你之前還有什麼要漲,院長可以跟這邊大家報告一下。我想這個括號會說是要漲,不完全正確啦,實際上這個...部分正確啦,部分正確啦。對啦,部分正確,因為衛福部他只是把上限拿開,然後呢地方政府、地方衛生局不必要做這一個審查報備的工作,但是呢現在有很多的像五大的這個醫院的"},{"start":1238.933,"end":1256.662,"text":"這一個協會也說他們不會這一個調漲的部分。 院長這新聞上的解釋很多我都有看,但是我現在就確認不管是掛號費的解封也好,電價即將可能上漲也好,我現在問的是說520之前在你離職之前還會不會漲別的東西?"},{"start":1258.819,"end":1272.132,"text":"應該不會吧?應該不會還是不會?你講大宗物資在漲齁?大宗物資在漲,對啊大宗物資跟著電價可能要漲,所以期待所以我剛剛問說會漲什麼?是不是一次?"},{"start":1273.376,"end":1300.272,"text":"先預告清楚,市場上也不會有這麼事情的外販運行。現在國際間大宗物資是在往下的,是在往下,所以國內不會漲。確定,確定,這是黃小玉、黃鄧小麥。主委長謝謝齁,謝謝承諾,所以520之前不會漲了齁?所以我剛才才說大宗物資好像不是這樣啦。好沒關係,院長這個我們數字我們再確認一下,但是我們要得到你一個確認是說520之前是不是不會再漲?"},{"start":1301.472,"end":1319.484,"text":"我想520之前電費的這一個部分確實需要經過...除了電費跟像這個掛費即將解封之外嘛,現在民眾已經知道這兩件事情了,那還有什麼?還是沒有?對,那如果是公營事業的這個部分,沒有。我不能夠保證私營的..."},{"start":1321.305,"end":1330.951,"text":"議員長,接下來要跟他討論很多民眾有關心的我們社會住宅的政策問題。這個我想跟院長確認一個概念,先進國家的低標,社會住宅佔住宅整體存量應該達到15%這句話你認同嗎?"},{"start":1352.325,"end":1375.214,"text":"我想要看那個國家的土地的價格還有房屋的價格。 那我國,我國就好,不管別人,我國。 我想以5%是應該算是基本啦。 好。 那我看到現在的這個存量,現在全國社會住宅新辦的進度,這是從來自於內政部股東產資訊中心的統計,"},{"start":1377.255,"end":1400.914,"text":"實際上現在可以入住的是大概3萬戶左右,29182,大約3萬戶左右,所以距離我想至於5%還是有一段這個落差。那當然過去的事情一樣,我的立場是過去的事情就算了,我們就是過去大家努力,但未來要繼續來合作。我想從這個數字上來看,地方政府非常努力,中央政府有一點努力,但是還有一件事情,"},{"start":1401.994,"end":1407.989,"text":"除了中央政府跟地方政府來興建社會住宅之外有一條路徑我不知道各位還記不記得"},{"start":1409.943,"end":1438.771,"text":"住宅法是在民國100年施行公佈其中有一條叫做民間新建社會住宅我想請問一下院長你知不知道說這13年了民間新建社會住宅的數量有多少新建這個確實現在有民間新建社宅的這個部分那我們請內政部林部長來回答已經有一些很好的案例我有說新建喔我是在報數代管喔那個我跟委員來回覆民間新辦社會住宅的部分"},{"start":1439.606,"end":1465.559,"text":"目前是沒有了。不過我要講的是說社會住宅其實最重要的一個困難是在土地的取得。目前我們政府在興建社會住宅的時候現在其實都是用公家的一個土地所以土地的取得是一個先決的一個條件。這一部分我們在去年的時候也跟比如說包括"},{"start":1466.401,"end":1467.305,"text":"有一些宗教團體或社會福利團體"},{"start":1471.428,"end":1496.19,"text":"我們現在正主動積極的跟他們做聯繫,因為這個對象必須處理。謝謝,這些新聞上我也看到了,你們非常努力,我知道。我知道提醒說,除了公部門,不管中央地方之外,還有一條路徑叫做民間新辦。那怎麼樣鼓勵民間新辦,在各位在這個法令裡面,其中有一條我提醒大家,還有一個叫行政法人新辦社會住宅使用非公共土地,它可以獲得1.5倍容體獎勵,這或許就是一個方向。"},{"start":1498.892,"end":1525.106,"text":"為什麼民間不願意改?我想最明確的原因是他沒有誘因。沒有誘因我講坦白的公部門當然不用談論利潤不用談論這個利益的問題但是你要鼓勵民間興辦社會住宅住宅法裡面有這個相關的規定那要怎麼樣鼓勵民間興辦社會住宅如果今天行政法人有這樣子的榮基獎勵民間興辦你要給他多少的榮基獎勵你要給他多少的誘因我覺得這是接下來施政上面"},{"start":1525.606,"end":1526.286,"text":"這個當然是一個路徑,不過剛剛提到就是說"},{"start":1549.454,"end":1551.416,"text":"政府都有在研議考慮相關土地資源的一個合理使用。"},{"start":1575.151,"end":1591.502,"text":"好部長謝謝院長接下來還有別的題目時間不多了接下來這個想問一下院長還有跟我們在座的閣員有聽過這個故宮一百家的可以舉手一下嗎好都沒有"},{"start":1598.544,"end":1601.428,"text":"院長請問一下你有沒有帶手機在身上嗎?"},{"start":1601.428,"end":1613.844,"text":"有。 院長我麻煩你可不可以搜尋一下Google100加這個幾個字。 這個我搜尋一下。 你搜尋看看。 那你搜尋的結果跟我的搜尋結果有沒有一樣?"},{"start":1632.637,"end":1655.246,"text":"收訊的結果是不是都是北京故宮為主?顯示故宮一百家是故宮一百是中國大陸G2003以後﹖好,院長謝謝,院長沒關係。我要提出來的原因是什麼?因為這個故宮一百家是明年我們臺北故宮一百週年的活動系列活動的這個名稱。"},{"start":1656.758,"end":1682.779,"text":"所以今年已經2024年了明年台北故宮要滿100週年但是如果一個100週年的大活動來講理論上來講現在的行銷宣傳應該開始了但是這個故宮100家也是這個官方的名稱但到目前為止如果搜尋如果外國觀光客想要訂機票想要來了解台北故宮100週年的系列活動他用Google搜尋是找不到相關的紀錄的"},{"start":1684.847,"end":1708.96,"text":"我們提到我們來跟這個故宮也交過相關的資料回覆我們裡面也提到說明年一百週年包含說要展出什麼宋版畫西文雅集那這個都是之前就展過了那也提到說要去這個法國跟捷克來參展但是我昨天看這個故宮昨天在質詢的時候抱歉"},{"start":1709.96,"end":1731.929,"text":"昨天故宮在質詢的時候提到說這個去捷克參展是因為疫情的關係所以延後,那表示你等於在另外一個場合的回答,意思就是說這個跟100週年其實沒有明確的相關性。那故宮100週年理論上我們是應該吸引國人之外各國觀光客能夠來故宮來看所謂的故宮100年,有什麼樣的特展也好,有什麼樣的展品也好。"},{"start":1732.429,"end":1745.863,"text":"但是我們卻把這個所謂的去法國參展去捷克參展當成故宮100周年的這個系列活動之一。那就讓人家開玩笑講說那是不是故宮要鼓勵大家法捷首選行程保覽故宮百年院。"},{"start":1747.219,"end":1775.872,"text":"我想不是這樣。我想故宮跟世界上大的這些展示機構來合作實際上相當重要。比如說我們到日本去展示相關的故宮的這個古物以後,哇!很多的日客就會來到台灣。那到法國展出的時候也是一樣,因為我就有朋友從日本跟法國來。我想這也是其中的一部分,但是需要更大的加強。我想要強調的是例行性的去國外參展,我們非常支持。"},{"start":1776.292,"end":1794.814,"text":"但是到底故宮100週年的展覽,就像我剛剛提到了,昨天我們故宮在答詢的時候提到這個節課其實不是針對100啊,它是剛好明年100年。所以我希望在規劃100週年的時候能夠更細緻一點,包含說我們的參展觀光人數啊,最高峰的時候有達到529萬人。"},{"start":1797.217,"end":1815.354,"text":"去年是150多萬人,那你希望明年能夠達到250萬的觀光人口,來院人口,所以等於今年跟去年你要增加100萬,那這100萬到底哪來?我想這是非常嚴肅的話題,我們希望故宮100周年能夠把它辦好,可以嗎?"},{"start":1816.685,"end":1842.266,"text":"發言委員,我可以回答。發言委員,故宮一百的話基本上是我在去年一月上任之後我開始規劃的。那這個部分的話就從管事、大事記...跟黃委員報告,因為時間關係可不可以請故宮博物院送相關書面資料給您好嗎?好。"},{"start":1842.898,"end":1846.37,"text":"非常感謝黃委員健豪的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的答詢。接下來我們請登記第47號"}]}},{"id":"149599","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149599","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e7383c0ce4a703cc6c6b03c089d976d4d230da91660cc9cbf8ba9b0039caa7a6dae08d90052531de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"09:17:01 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對象是行政院的海委會以及海巡署,並不是法國部。 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這個禮拜我進行了14場質詢。 也看了幾十場我們的行政官員對立法委員的質詢。 那我在這邊要公佈我看到插話最嚴重的前三名。 看看他們的是怎麼樣的插話。"},{"start":36.837,"end":63.764,"text":"第三名陳建仁院長陳建仁院長的插話風格非常特別當立委在質詢的時候他會在旁邊一直講你外行你不科學你不正確你不專業就用不斷的用這種所謂的指責性的方式插話干擾立法委員的質詢但這不是最嚴重的"},{"start":64.841,"end":94.398,"text":"第二名就是管碧玲主委管碧玲主委就是反反覆覆答非所問然後當然態度比較溫和所以他只能拿到第二名來大家猜猜看第一名是誰第一名就是我們的陸委會主委邱泰山邱泰山的阿爸在什麼地方"},{"start":96.094,"end":120.202,"text":"他不斷的打斷、插話、干擾委員的質詢最糟糕的是他還說謊他還搬出不存在的立法院的議事規則跟立法委員職權行使法我在這邊要跟邱太三委員講啊憲法徵修條文第三條第二項第一款就明定"},{"start":121.26,"end":148.348,"text":"立委有向行政院院長各部會首長質詢之權。憲法沒有規定你插話權。他竟然說我錯了。他說因為立法院質詢行使法規定可以疾問疾答所以他有三分之一的時間。我們的質詢時間五分鐘八分鐘要分他三分之一的時間讓他講。我就問我們的邱主委"},{"start":149.383,"end":152.928,"text":"立法院職權行使法有哪一個條文規定你有隨3分鐘時間?"},{"start":155.134,"end":181.025,"text":"立法院職權行使法第18條規定 質詢是即問即答就是我問你你就要立刻答 我沒問你就不能答 質詢權不管是在民間在立法院在憲政上 質詢權就是為了賦予我們立法委員充分監督政府的職能 在邱泰山口中竟然是要分三分之一時間給他"},{"start":182.766,"end":184.467,"text":"謝謝羅委員智強。接下來請登記第二位徒委員全級發言。"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}