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漏"},{"start":1767.366,"end":1788.83,"text":"沒有錯誤跟遺漏意思不確定接著介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員首先介紹黃國昌總召還有審發會委員在場官員包括有監察院李俊毅秘書長副秘書長劉文世監察業務處王貞華處長"},{"start":1796.038,"end":1802.763,"text":"監察調查處楊昌憲處長公職人員財產申報處陳美妍處長秘書處張麗雅處長綜合業務處汪玲玲處長人事室劉家慧主任政風室楊華興主任"},{"start":1822.063,"end":1849.719,"text":"內政及族群委員會．楊華璇主任秘書外交及國防委員會．陳瑞洲專門委員社會福利及衛生環境委員會．施貞仰主任秘書財政及經濟委員會．邱瑞芝主任秘書教育及文化委員會．李雲主任秘書"},{"start":1851.874,"end":1876.233,"text":"交通及採購委員會鄭旭浩主任秘書司法及域政委員會林惠美主任秘書國家人權委員會代理執行秘書邱秀蘭法規研究委員會黃敬興執行秘書"},{"start":1879.152,"end":1881.522,"text":"紀律委員會吳裕湘執行秘書"},{"start":1883.66,"end":1910.536,"text":"好那麼因為今日的會議室已經完成了會場前方兩處發言台的設置所以接下來會議進行時出席委員及列席機關代表請至發言台發言在主席右手邊的為列席機關代表的發言台及備詢台在我左手邊的則是委員的發言台及諮詢台那另外特別提醒各位"},{"start":1911.036,"end":1925.727,"text":"因為電腦螢幕及麥克風陷入的鋪設關係在發言台前方的地毯稍有隆起各位經過的時候要稍加注意現在就邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫．並備質詢"},{"start":1937.865,"end":1955.757,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生今天非常榮幸應邀到貴委員會來報告監察院的立法計畫那監察院依憲法跟憲法增修條文的規定我們的職責是彈劾、糾舉、糾正、審計那我們也照這樣那行使的依據就是我們的監察法"},{"start":1956.417,"end":1983.542,"text":"另外我們國家人權委員會在20208月1號成立我們也積極的來推動組織法第二條所規定的相關職權但是職權行使上還有不足的地方我們希望有法規依據所以我們希望在監察法裡面設置一個專章來推動這個我們國家人權委員會所需要的職權行使的相關項目那第三監察院因為作為陽光事法的這個執行機關"},{"start":1985.862,"end":2009.025,"text":"法律的主管機關都不是監察院但是執行機關是監察院而在我們執行的過程當中會有一些至愛難情的部分我們除了跟這個相關的主管機關反映以外我們也希望有些部分可以由相關主管機關來修法那這個部分也經過主管機關還有行政院的討論那今天要跟各位委員報告的部分是兩個部分"},{"start":2010.586,"end":2029.788,"text":"第一個有關監察法的修法監察法的修法是在2019年我們完成了國家人權委員會組織法的修法那當時立法院就做了一個附帶決議希望有關國家人權職權的行使訂立監察法之中"},{"start":2030.569,"end":2037.713,"text":"那我們也依這樣的要求我們送來監察法專章這個來提供在上一屆送來立法院審議那司法委員會已經完成審議但是後來沒有黨團協商所以這一條藉其不連續那這個部分我們會在現在我們會在這個會期中我們希望重新檢討過去委員在這方面的建議然後我們重新將這個法案來盡快來送到貴院來審查"},{"start":2060.826,"end":2082.28,"text":"陽光事法執行機關執行上確實碰到一些困難所以有關陽光事法我們也有一些修法的建議那這個主管機關不是我們但是我們希望主管機關跟行政院能夠盡快的完成修法包括我們虛擬貨幣是不是一定要列為這個"},{"start":2084.182,"end":2093.449,"text":"財產申報的一個主體那因為過去我們跟法務部反應過那法務部已經在那個表格裡面要求虛擬貨幣也需要申報財產但是虛擬貨幣還有其他衍生相關的問題包括它的價值到底為何這個還需要討論那另外第二個部分是有關政治獻金法"},{"start":2103.957,"end":2120.41,"text":"就是現在有很多的社群網絡媒體包括所謂的YouTube的Donate那這個算不算政治獻金的部分那這個有很多衍生出來的討論包括如果候選人本身是所謂的YouTuber那這個部分要不要做政治獻金的申報"},{"start":2121.01,"end":2121.35,"text":"以上向各位委員報告,謝謝"},{"start":2144.79,"end":2171.978,"text":"好那麼機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄那現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記請登記第一位黃總召委員請發言"},{"start":2204.329,"end":2208.271,"text":"好,謝謝主席,有請秘書長有請監察院李秘書長李秘書長早,待讀了一下監察院的"},{"start":2217.566,"end":2243.859,"text":"113年的立法計畫上一屆的國會啊監察法曾經提出來後來監察院自己把它撤回去了後來在第二度又再提出來那上一次被撤回去的法案裡面有要處理調查權法制化的問題後來再提的版本裡面這個條文已經沒有了我講的就是監察法第26條的規定那這一次你們在監察院的立法計畫當中兩個具體的問題第一個"},{"start":2247.06,"end":2265.706,"text":"監察法什麼時候會送來?我們希望在這會期之前可以做得到嗎?第二個,調查權的法制化會處理嗎?我們沒有這樣的計畫目前沒有這樣的計畫?李委員您之前在當委員的時候對調查權沒有法制化批評很多嗎?覺得現在沒有這個問題了嗎?"},{"start":2267.335,"end":2269.677,"text":"目前監察院出的調查報告沒有法源的依據對不對"},{"start":2289.468,"end":2312.254,"text":"我不太懂黃委員的意思目前監察委員做的最多的就是調查報告嗎?調查報告的法源依據在哪裡?監察院行使憲法95條96條的調查權所以調查報告當然是依照相關規定來的所以你直接是用憲法的嗎?您當初在當立法委員的時候強烈的批判這個調查報告沒有法源依據你還記得嗎?"},{"start":2313.305,"end":2334.617,"text":"我知道所以我跟委員說明說這一次我們修法就是程序上屆藉其不連續我們送來的是國家人權委員會的職權行使的部分國家人權委員會歸國家人權委員會現在我在請教你的是調查報告法源依據的問題嗎那調查報告目前調查報告的法源依據是什麼調查報告我們現在依據的就是監察法26條"},{"start":2335.866,"end":2364.435,"text":"直接依照憲法就對了其實監察法26條監察法26條上面有想調查報告嗎上面沒有提到監察報告但是我們依照調查我們做了調查就應該做調查報告沒關係啊秘書長你在當委員的時候立場跟你現在立場一不一樣喔社會大眾可以檢驗下一個具體的問題啊地方巡查勞師動眾啊效應極差監察院什麼時候要處理監察院尋回監察的辦法"},{"start":2366.304,"end":2390.111,"text":"監察院的巡查是因為依據監察院的巡迴辦法來規定我們每年要對地方做兩所以你認為地方巡查有沒有效應這個我們內部有在討論所以有沒有效應最重要的是我們我們的監委到地方巡查的時候可以接受民眾的陳情我提醒你看一下2018年12月19號那個時候你在當立法委員的時候質詢監察院我唸給你聽"},{"start":2393.615,"end":2420.095,"text":"有關地方巡查的業務只是要應付4個月一次的巡查搞得地方政府牢獅動眾到底在巡查什麼東西那這種東西根本就是不符合時代的產物現在交通這麼發達還要什麼地方巡查那是過去的觀念那個時候你建議監察院自己把這個地方巡查的辦法把它廢掉了你的立場有改變嗎"},{"start":2421.488,"end":2445.44,"text":"跟委員報告因為我這樣的建議監察院地方巡查已經由3次改為2次了由3次改為2次我們看一下地方巡查的辦法來112年111年110年巡查的次數32次32次22次地方政府一樣是要應付這些地方巡查預算一樣要編阿"},{"start":2447.672,"end":2476.168,"text":"對所以我跟黃委員報告就是依據相關的規定我們來執行那過去我講的認為地方巡查次數太多那現在改為不是喔那個時候你是地標巡查自己要廢掉喔那時候你還斥責監察院阿沒錯該自己廢的報告不廢還要立法院動手黃委員所以現在監察院要不要自己動手黃委員我跟你們報告現在這個部分我們院理正在討論當中什麼時候會有結論這個要看院理我只是幕僚長不是委員"},{"start":2477.833,"end":2499.361,"text":"所以您當到秘書長了我希望您能夠堅持過去的理想我的看法跟你一樣啊搞這種地方巡查要幹什麼直接把它廢了啦我在院會提過但是委員有不同的意見這個要留給委員討論好我們來看一下對於監察院過去這三年彈劾的績效秘書長覺得滿不滿意"},{"start":2502.08,"end":2517.925,"text":"我們向來不以績效來做監察院到底有沒有做到他的憲法賦予的職權憲法賦予的職權是彈劾究極審計重點是如何把違法實質的揪出來而不是案件的多少重點不是案件的多少2014年一樣是您"},{"start":2519.685,"end":2530.557,"text":"痛批我們的監察院一個委員平均一年彈劾不到一件來我們來看一下2023年的時候彈劾了幾件2023年彈劾了20件有一年平均有到一件嗎"},{"start":2539.537,"end":2557.139,"text":"沒有阿 跟你當初批評的時候一模一樣阿20件是需要經過很多的程序還要審查的所以各個委員其實是相當忙碌了那整個的調整你2014年的時候你的批評阿是一人一年彈劾不到一件阿這個監察院阿根本不認真阿"},{"start":2558.24,"end":2566.705,"text":"謝謝我跟黃委員報告第4屆第5屆第6屆他的平均數其實沒有差距太多2點多是每一個人平均調查的次數所以這個部分其實各屆以來都沒有太大的差別我現在講的啦我的標準一樣"},{"start":2585.606,"end":2585.666,"text":"監察院"},{"start":2613.564,"end":2637.522,"text":"有沒有發揮他的效能一年花納稅10萬塊值不值得當然當然當然是留給社會公平社會的印象對監察院的印象是怎麼樣不是我們兩個在這邊爭論的啦每一個公民心裡都有一把尺來下一個問題監察院作為公職人員財產申報法以及政治獻金法的執行機關嘛來請教無償提供動產跟不動產應不應該申報"},{"start":2646.45,"end":2667.647,"text":"動產 呃 財產申報法的第5條政治獻金法第二條啦政治獻金法無償提供的動產或不動產這是政治獻金法我們不是主管單位阿我剛才說過了財閥的機關是誰財閥機關是我們阿是你們嘛所以我的問題就是如果無償提供動產不動產沒有申報要不要財閥這個部分我請那個我們財申處的處長來跟您會談"},{"start":2675.008,"end":2700.457,"text":"報告委員還是要看他是不是以政治現金捐贈的目的下的一個無償好來看一下2020年蔡英文破這個是競選喔招牌弄得很大喔結果他的車子詐騙集團的首腦無償提供怎麼破也承認了嘛那個說選舉要跑行程啊無償提供給他第二個"},{"start":2701.907,"end":2727.288,"text":"這個房子一樣喔半毛的書信都沒有收喔無償提供喔在這一個蔡英文總統陳歐珀立委競選連任羅東後援會站在前面啊上面在看的那個招牌的人啊我跟你們介紹一下你們可能不知道那三個是誰啊那三個就是曾耀峰就是張竹芬還有他們的友人"},{"start":2728.856,"end":2734.731,"text":"無償提供了以後啊三個看到招牌掛在上面啊非常的開心啊在這邊看啊這要不要申報"},{"start":2738.422,"end":2740.083,"text":"為什麼暫停調查我再跟你溝通一下觀念"},{"start":2767.532,"end":2776.528,"text":"行事的責任歸行事的責任阿有沒有接受供養要不要負行事的責任跟政治獻金法沒有誠實申報有什麼關係阿"},{"start":2779.468,"end":2805.356,"text":"委員我跟您報告政治獻金法有沒有如實申報這個本來就要依照規定來處理那您提到的現在有依照規定來處理嗎我現在跟您講我現在跟您報告就IMB案我們現在立法我們的監察院也正在立案調查當中那這個部分因為涉及涉及剛剛我們處長有講涉及刑事偵查所以這個部分有關財產的申報的部分我們現在是暫停"},{"start":2808.252,"end":2811.859,"text":"行事偵查有沒有犯意聯絡有沒有行為分擔有沒有參與詐騙那個是行事責任的問題"},{"start":2816.121,"end":2840.931,"text":"政治獻金法推散的問題是什麼你該申報沒有申報就要開罰啦有這麼複雜嗎黃委員我跟您報告的就是如果刑事偵查沒有出來我們無從判斷他是不是用政治獻金來捐贈所以這個部分我們必須我先提一下齁陳歐珀自己都承認啦再來抽選舉的時候無償提供給他跑行程請問你還要怎麼認定啊"},{"start":2842.451,"end":2855.138,"text":"請問你還要怎麼認定啊認定是不是政治獻金這個部分要等刑事偵查完以後我們才有辦法確認那這個部分我們不會以陳歐珀怎麼說來作為唯一的依據他就是當事人啊他就是當事人啊"},{"start":2858.78,"end":2874.229,"text":"什麼時候刑事偵查成為監察院不履行職責放水的擋箭牌這個不是放水 這個我們正在委員正在針對這個案我們正在調查這個事情發生多久啦 到現在還繼續停著包屁嘛 放水嘛 不敢罰嘛沒有 我們是因為刑事偵查所以我們暫停審查"},{"start":2882.79,"end":2887.473,"text":"所以我這樣問好了啦他刑事偵查就一直放著一天不終結你們就繼續的遲延繼續放著對不對所以嘛我就問嘛只要刑事偵查5年不增結你們就5年不會動我說的對不對"},{"start":2911.146,"end":2934.404,"text":"我們會看偵查的內容跟報告你如何得知偵查的內容跟報告沒有沒有刑事偵檢你如何得知偵查的內容跟報告黃委員我跟您報告清楚這一件事情您提的是政治獻金是因為現在有刑事偵查的問題那這個是不是用政治獻金的方式項目進來政治獻金申報我們只管這一部分"},{"start":2934.804,"end":2937.105,"text":"所以我的問題很簡單嘛 你要等到偵查完嘛所以5年不偵查完 你們5年就不會動 對不對"},{"start":2963.601,"end":2991.11,"text":"如果在這個部分這個檢察官有明確的表示的話我們就會依照這樣不影響到我們政治先進檢察官什麼時候有明確的表示說監察院不能動檢察官什麼時候有明確的表示剛剛我們處長已經說明很清楚了黃委員其實他的行為也有發生在之前所以這邊也有刑事責任的部分請我們監察院會後可以將你們更明確的答案我們可以提交給黃委員參考好不好黃委員OK好好謝謝"},{"start":2993.011,"end":3013.648,"text":"下一位我們有請省委員發會質詢主席有請李秘書長有請李秘書長省委員早李秘書長早"},{"start":3020.069,"end":3021.031,"text":"監察院秘書長"},{"start":3035.222,"end":3058.692,"text":"那所謂秘書長大概基本上是什麼樣的一個角色秘書長的概念就是一個幕僚長就是我們如何把行政工作相關的資料準備還有其他的部分做好讓委員跟院長副院長能夠順利的執行職權所以你做一個幕僚長你可以指揮說哪個監委你辦了幾個案子沒有監察委員獨立行使職權這個連院長都沒有辦法指派"},{"start":3063.914,"end":3093.107,"text":"那你可以你現在你代表監察院的秘書長身份來這裡你可以在這裡說現在委員平均一年辦幾個案子太多了或太少了這個我沒有這樣的權利因為監察委員本來就是依照憲法的規定獨立行使職權所以你今天來這裡你也不是立法委員雖然你今天來立法院你現在不是立法委員我當然不是所以你也不能在這裡表示你個人對於監察委員的哪一個現在辦的案子怎麼樣都不能"},{"start":3093.447,"end":3119.764,"text":"所以即使過去你擔任立法委員的時候你對監察院職務的行使有多少的意見你今天以幕僚長的身份來這裡你可以在這裡表達意見嗎?不可以所以把你過去的在立法院講的話來這裡來問你說你今天幕僚長你表示你的意見這是適當嗎?這個留給社會做公平所以我覺得這個質詢今天任何一個人不要說監察院"},{"start":3120.782,"end":3136.314,"text":"你今天韓國瑜你當總統候選人跟你今天當立法院院長你站在上面你講的話你說你今天你總統大選的時候你不是講嗎你不是講喝酒跳舞嗎你現在當立法院院長你可以在台上主席台上講喝酒跳舞嗎"},{"start":3137.699,"end":3163.77,"text":"所以這個角色每一個角色我想在這個質詢當中我們大家還是要就事論事今天來是這個監察院的秘書長不管他叫做李俊毅他叫做王八蛋他叫做什麼都一樣任何人來的他就代表立法院幕僚長他能夠回答的就是針對他幕僚長角色可以回答的問題是謝謝孫委員我也認為這樣我就是今天就是以監察院秘書長的身份來接下來"},{"start":3166.046,"end":3172.502,"text":"這個我想我請問剛剛有提到這個監察法有提到這個監察法的修正"},{"start":3174.783,"end":3200.52,"text":"這個秘書長你有提到說你們這個會期這個會期內會再送一次再送立法院我們希望這個會期內能把國家人權行使的專章在監察法裡面的專章送到立法院來這個是上一屆有送但是沒有通過上一屆上一屆其實在本委員會已經審查完畢了都審查完畢了對 已經審查完畢了審查完畢最後草野協商沒有草野協商所以就沒有相關問題所以他這個屆期不連續對 是這個狀況"},{"start":3204.242,"end":3218.717,"text":"那因此我們這次再送,如果我們在這個會期內再送,你們是會按照上一屆所送的草案再送一次,還是你們會參酌上一屆審查完均之後所調整的這個條文來送?"},{"start":3221.32,"end":3250.535,"text":"我跟省委員報告因為上一屆送來在司法委員審查的時候我們的立法委員們有很多的意見那我們這一次送來的案子當然是已經參酌立法委員的審查意見裡面所以會做若干的調整基本上會做調整跟上一屆的這個但是我們還是要完成他的程序就是必須我們整個討論以後然後送到我們院會院會通過以後我們才會送到立法院來所以我希望會在這個會期以前送進來這個部分我想你們"},{"start":3251.135,"end":3252.721,"text":"理論上應該因為上一屆在審整個審查"},{"start":3254.383,"end":3280.611,"text":"完整之後的條文事實上做了很多的跟你們原本送來的草案做了很多的調整上次有保留三條那這個部分我們會做討論然後或者做一部分的修正然後再送進來我希望的就是這樣不要說上一屆送的條文這一屆又送進來同樣的這個上一屆大家有意見保留的條文你再原封不動的送進來我們已經開始進行討論程序了"},{"start":3283.032,"end":3297.251,"text":"那這裡面齁我特別特別齁就是要在這裡除了這個監察法以外齁我們目前這個監察院國家人權委員會的組織法齁裡面有關這個第二條第一款齁這個有關這個"},{"start":3301.411,"end":3317.942,"text":"這個我們國家人權委員會目前對於人權委員會對涉及酷刑侵害人權或構成各種形式歧視的事件進行調查並依法處理或救濟這是目前的這個國家人權委員會組織法第二條第一款"},{"start":3319.127,"end":3346.553,"text":"那這個部分呢我特別特別要這個跟李秘書長來討論一下就是第一個就是說所謂涉及酷刑這個酷刑這兩個字齁在目前法律上面他有其他的定義嗎什麼樣叫做酷刑我的了解是沒有明確的定義但是這個我們有巴黎原則底下的所謂的酷刑公約裡面有一定的方向跟指引所以我們現在是按照什麼你剛剛講酷刑公約"},{"start":3347.233,"end":3366.861,"text":"我們基本上我們是巴黎原則的簽訂國所以我們會依照這樣我們必須國際法化所以現在目前用國際公約的標準來基本上我們原則希望如此但是要逐步達成因為現在事實上國內法裡面對酷刑並沒有定義所以你這一條在酷刑的這部分在這個與人權團體的時候會有這個這個部分的一些討論另外這個"},{"start":3375.504,"end":3392.207,"text":"我們在這一條裡面規定最後就是說依法處理或救濟齁這個會不會有點空我目前的做法是怎麼樣處理或救濟做什麼樣處理或救濟這個部分我是不是請人權會的副執行秘書跟您打破好可以請副執行秘書"},{"start":3394.096,"end":3414.127,"text":"委員好有關於我們在組織法的第二條的第一款提到的對於酷刑或是侵害人權或是歧視的部分我們來依法處理跟救濟那這部分我目前我們是會接受相關的依照職權或陳情的調查我們會來做處理處理我現在就要問說這個所謂處理是你們現在目前是怎麼處理"},{"start":3415.175,"end":3443.107,"text":"我們的處理我們就是會如果要調查的話我們要經過不是調查處理按照這一條最後的結果並依法處理及救濟這個處理及救濟目前是做什麼樣的處理我們的調查我們在相關的結果如果我們可能會函詢給相關的陳情人把相關的我們調查的結果告知然後我們也會把調查的結果函給相關的行政機關涉及相關行政機關來做處理處理我們就一個文區就對了"},{"start":3445.322,"end":3462.932,"text":"我跟委員報告這更完整一點如果經過人權委員會的調查認為有些部分需要處理涉及這個機關違法或失職會送到監察院來那如果有其他的部分行政上的部分我們會送給這個時間的關係時間的關係這個部分我認為現在目前條文所謂的處理跟救濟事實上跟沒有處理是一樣的意思這個我們未來這個部分要做一些明確化這個法條會空洞化"},{"start":3474.128,"end":3491.444,"text":"會變成你所謂處理與救濟不少所謂處理程序我們也沒有目前也沒有這個相關的職權行使的相關規定到底做什麼處理也不知道好不好對這個就是我們這次送法來的對我希望在整個修法過程中必須要把這個所謂處理跟救濟這樣子的程序要把法制化是"},{"start":3492.301,"end":3519.133,"text":"再來我跟您討論一個問題目前大家對於資安的部分有很多的討論我們行政院在前年的8月31號通過一個行政機關使用生成式AI的參考指引有制定一個行政指導原則參考指引這個部分"},{"start":3520.488,"end":3528.407,"text":"這個部分齁這個因為我們在這個我們自己齁我們在這個監察院裡面我們也有提到說有關的這個這個"},{"start":3531.594,"end":3555.622,"text":"這個公營事業公益學校行政法人使用AI用這個參考指引來那目前我們這個這個監我們的監察的業務監委的巡迴工作目前有沒有把這樣子使用AI這個各機關他有沒有依照這樣子生成式AI的參考指引有沒有依據這個這個指引來執行有沒有納入我們目前的這個這個巡查工作好"},{"start":3556.302,"end":3578.533,"text":"這個部分我分3個部分跟省委員回應第一個部分有關AI的生成其實我們委員也有在自動調查當中這是第一個第二個就是這些指引下來各機關有沒有執行或是會有什麼樣相關的意見我們在去年年底的行政院巡查的時候我們有跟行政院在提出這個問題那跟行政院提出第三個部分才講"},{"start":3579.033,"end":3593.553,"text":"第三個部分是有關AI這個對深層式AI的部分我們國家人權委員會裡面有做專案的討論我看到你們的國家人權委員會的這個裝成策略計畫裡面也有提到有特別提到但是我剛剛的問題是說你們目前這個這個"},{"start":3597.057,"end":3599.46,"text":"我剛跟委員報告的就是我們在去年的行政院的巡查裡面我們有特別跟行政院提醒這件事情那今年的巡查裡面我們還會追蹤"},{"start":3616.877,"end":3617.638,"text":"實際上監察院是一個獨立的單位"},{"start":3643.601,"end":3669.926,"text":"他事實上在我們的資通安全的這些部分他可以擔任一個獨立的集合單位這個部分我們在行政院遵循資安等級的法尊事項就有提到國家應該要有一個就資通安全的獨立的集合單位我個人是認為監察院事實上是適合扮演這個角色的這部分請秘書長回去研究好不好"},{"start":3671.032,"end":3672.953,"text":"主席在這邊做一個說明根據憲法第71條立法院開會時關係院院長及各部會首長得列席陳述意見"},{"start":3697.58,"end":3713.023,"text":"那今天我們的議程安排的是由監察院來報告113年度的立法計畫那形式上跟立法院對於行政院各部會行使職權質詢是些許不同"},{"start":3713.904,"end":3729.401,"text":"建議委員可以參考我們憲法第71條的精神本質來瞭解監察院在本年度的立法計畫因為這是屬於本院的全責那接下來要邀請的是陳委員峻宇發言"},{"start":3747.639,"end":3774.27,"text":"好謝謝主席那主席請秘書長好有請李秘書長從委員長好謝謝秘書長還有謝謝我們所有列席的各部會的首長那首先我想就叫我們監察院的部分我想請教秘書長就是在宜蘭特教的有一個體罰案體罰案那這個部分在"},{"start":3775.693,"end":3802.084,"text":"本席的選區宜蘭縣發生的一個特教體罰案是在一個這個某公立的附幼的學前特教班那當時的這個教師是經由三招來所招聘進請來學校擔任老師的並沒有特教或幼教的這個專業那我們也得知在這一班的特教幼童遭到老師這個強迫為"},{"start":3805.044,"end":3807.127,"text":"強迫餵飯、束帶束褲、強迫拉筋、過度體能訓練等脫序行為甚至還有虐打行為"},{"start":3819.192,"end":3844.213,"text":"那也有這個特教的助理老師從旁側錄的影片來做佐證在整個過程縣政府經過調查之後雖然是判定非屬重大情節啦非屬情節重大僅判這個老師停聘一年而且罰款六萬後來雖然有改聘改為情節重大"},{"start":3845.336,"end":3874.022,"text":"可是仍然是以最低的這個法則來懲罰當事人在一年之後他就可以繼續當老師所以這個也是許多家長所擔心的那針對這個案子除了我們必須要釐清案情在制度上也要檢討是否缺乏合格的這個私援所以才會影響到學童的受教權也讓所有的家長無法這個放心的這個來讓小孩子去學校就讀"},{"start":3875.262,"end":3891.315,"text":"所以在整個過程裡面我們也看到這個判決的結果或許不是讓所有的家長都非常的滿意那我想就教秘書長對這個案情的了解情況還有您認知上這個案情應該會怎麼樣好 謝謝陳委員"},{"start":3893.917,"end":3917.668,"text":"我跟陳委員報告,監察院對於特教或幼教的部分我們有很多的調查案但是我的印象中沒有宜蘭這一件所以我的了解就是說我們回去以後我們跟委員討論看看這個部分有沒有需要立案那這個部分我們再來跟陳委員做比較詳細的報告好,秘書長沒關係那因為在上個禮拜五"},{"start":3919.409,"end":3947.008,"text":"我們監察院的葉大華委員認為這個案子涉及的這個身心障礙兒童受虐的情況以及他就學的安全相關議題那我們的葉委員為了釐清整個事情的處理是否有缺失所以他已經有主動申請要自動調查那我也希望說我們對於這個案子的關心雖然可能在整個剛剛秘書長您答覆的情況是"},{"start":3949.349,"end":3951.731,"text":"目前這份文我還沒有看到所以我們會跟葉大華委員再做討論"},{"start":3968.624,"end":3985.85,"text":"我要拜託秘書長就是要持續關心那既然委員已經介入調查那我也希望說整個調查結果能夠儘早公布出來讓所有的這個我們看委員調查的一個狀況這個我們都尊重委員的行使好秘書長謝謝"},{"start":3987.984,"end":4005.815,"text":"因為在這個我們兒童權利的公約裡面有明定要保護我們這些兒童不受到任何形式的這種身心靈的暴力情況甚至傷害還有這個虐待那人權會所公布的忠誠策略計畫中也宰明要檢討我們校園"},{"start":4008.157,"end":4019.365,"text":"這個老師對於學生的這種暴力處理的機制,釐清發生的原因提出政策的這個建議來降低暴力的這種發生所以我也希望說我們監察院對這個案子應該是要這個"},{"start":4023.786,"end":4052.038,"text":"更多的關心讓整個案子除了能夠盡早清楚以外也能夠讓老師跟學生的關係應該要有一個更明確的分界好 謝謝陳委員我跟陳委員很快的兩個回應第一個部分是有關這一案現在如果業大法委員已經自動調查了我們會尊重業大法委員的職權那第二個部分是有關師對生的霸凌監察院我們人權委員會其實有一個專案研究報告"},{"start":4053.88,"end":4077.098,"text":"所以我們有針對這件事情認真的調查那瞭解他的整個國家的狀況那所以我們這個部分在調查報告完成以後我們會公告好 謝謝秘書長那接續我想請教就是人民的這種書狀案件那我們從監察院第4條這個規定裡面監察院及監察委員得收受人民的這種書狀"},{"start":4078.615,"end":4107.756,"text":"那人民如果發現公務員有違法施指的行為舉證後就能夠向監察院或監察委員來舉發那我們從最近的監察院公告的統計數據看來在人民書狀的案件性質當中明顯集中在這個司法局內政兩類尤其又以這個司法為最大宗占比將近4成那司法"},{"start":4108.476,"end":4124.044,"text":"及預證的案件所佔的比例近兩幾屆是逐步的在上升當中是否可以判斷這個民怨可能集中在司法或是民眾特別關心司法的議題我想就叫秘書長對這個數據的解讀為何"},{"start":4127.57,"end":4131.334,"text":"會不會變相就是變成民眾對於基層的司法這種不信任"},{"start":4153.743,"end":4168.68,"text":"這個當然民眾的不信任是一個因素第二個就是民眾本來的心情就是我如果被判書這個我的案件書我當然會有心情不滿所以也有可能因為這樣提出檢舉案但是我們還是會由委員來判斷這個到底要不要立案調查"},{"start":4172.364,"end":4173.985,"text":"其實監察院現在案件已經非常多而且我們的工作量已經很重了"},{"start":4188.66,"end":4206.165,"text":"好那這部分也是請我們可能監察院對這部分要去做比較好的檢討讓這個地方的司法單位該受理的案件就直接在地方看能不能就直接做比較妥善的處理我們回去研究監察院可以做什麼樣的改善好"},{"start":4207.225,"end":4228.457,"text":"那我想另外再請教我們秘書長就是針對這個死刑存廢的相關議題的問題如果談到民眾最關心的這個司法議題這個死刑的存廢一直是台灣民眾討論的一個非常重要的議題那到底廢除死刑是否合適在人權會我們"},{"start":4231.038,"end":4247.472,"text":"也把條例為是重點的目標之一那在中層策略的計畫當中也寫到就是要推動逐步廢除死刑建立人權會有關死刑議題的這個論述來提升民眾廢除死刑的這個支持度"},{"start":4248.112,"end":4268.297,"text":"那我們不管說從過去國發會所做出有8成8的民眾是反對廢除死刑或是最近媒體的民調也有7成以上是反對那我想請教秘書長就是面對這個民意強烈的反彈人權會應該要如何來推動這個廢除死刑的這個案子"},{"start":4269.097,"end":4296.063,"text":"我跟陳委員報告目前司法院他有定一個日期叫做4月23號他在憲法法庭裡面會討論到這個議題我們監察院國家人權委員會被司法院命為我們是鑑定機關所以我們會提供我們的鑑定意見至於鑑定意見我們現在由人權會的委員裡面我們有一個工作小組跟細節討論目前還在研議當中"},{"start":4299.639,"end":4325.111,"text":"那所以到底我們會不會廢除死刑的部分也還沒有很明確吧還在討論當中以國家人權委員會的立場來講我們很難反對我們會以廢除死刑為目標這個人權會公開都講過而且我們是巴黎原則的簽約國所以我們都以這個目標來努力會以廢除死刑為目標"},{"start":4326.67,"end":4347.455,"text":"支持國家與被處死刑為目標,這是人權會一向的立場。好,那這個我們死刑議題需要跟社會來做一個大量的溝通,因為說實在這個意見可能相左,那也很明確可能這個地方社會上的意見這個分歧,所以我也希望說監察院在對於這個議題的推動的過程裡面,"},{"start":4350.116,"end":4367.962,"text":"應該是要多多的聽取地方的意見我跟陳委員報告這個社會現在的整個的認知跟我們人權委員會的認知可能有很大的差距這個我們也理解所以我們監察院他是一個忠誠目標就是我們希望透過跟家屬的溝通透過跟被害者家屬的溝通"},{"start":4368.542,"end":4389.74,"text":"透過更多跟所謂的NGO團體的溝通那對這個事情對整個社會氛圍來形成漸漸形成一個共識但是現在在這個社會還沒有共識之前我們監察院的國家人權委員會只會表達我們的意見那其他至於要不要實行要不要怎麼樣那個不是我們監察院的職權"},{"start":4390.461,"end":4407.71,"text":"好那因為我們4月份馬上就要迎來這個憲法的法庭對死刑違憲案的這個辯論所以我也希望說我們監察院對於此事的立場為何到時候應該要有一個明確的說法我們會很清楚的表達我們的立場好那就謝謝秘書長跟所有的同仁謝謝陳委員謝謝陳委員謝謝李秘書長"},{"start":4425.691,"end":4442.468,"text":"好 那我們下一位請鍾嘉賓委員主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政府監管司長 官員 會長工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生那麼有請李秘書長"},{"start":4447.586,"end":4473.435,"text":"總委好 秘書長好剛剛有委員發言提到一個是否為政治獻金案你們提到的那個主要的意見說必須行事程序告一段落後才會開始對行政法啟動這是不是根據行政法法第26條第一項第二項相關定是是根據行政法法好那我大概就是先確認一下那麼今天本席呢想要來關切的就是監察院的立法計畫"},{"start":4474.375,"end":4499.591,"text":"那我想呢關於最近我們在媒體上看到的施暴的事件層次不窮比如說去年北京管理人做事視同作業收容人也是另外的受刑人對受刑人施暴致傷在我們屏東有發生警察痛毆嫌犯致死那在2019年高雄監獄的虐囚案管理員後來被判刑三年十個月定宴那最近也發生桃園分局三個警察呢涉嫌擲電磁棒刑求17歲的少年"},{"start":4500.291,"end":4515.259,"text":"請問秘書長你認不認爲這邊是不是負責行使公權力的執法者設有縱容發生凌虐或是假借公權力去施暴有甚至到達凌虐酷刑的程度有沒有"},{"start":4516.168,"end":4536.295,"text":"我跟各位報告這些案件非常多那幾乎每一個案我們都有委員立案調查那這是是不是也有接近於聯合國禁止酷刑公約算不算這是禁止酷刑公約當中所說的不能到的殘忍的有辱人格的待遇或處罰算不算"},{"start":4537.871,"end":4553.508,"text":"平東桃園的案件是那台灣有沒有加入禁止酷刑公約簽約國有目前沒有啦目前沒有我們有簽巴黎原則有巴黎原則那所以目前台灣對於酷刑公約的態度人權委員的立場您所知道的是怎麼樣"},{"start":4554.69,"end":4575.226,"text":"我們的瞭解是國家人權委員會我們希望這個行政院能夠盡速的通過這個酷刑公約的立法好 酷刑公約的國內那怎麼去訂立施行法 有行政院訂囉是好 那麼監察院有沒有琢磨的空間我們來看一下監察院對於北監剛剛有說的案件的調查意見說到什麼"},{"start":4576.747,"end":4597.768,"text":"說到說就對於去年北京收容人那個案子呢﹖你們有說﹖要加強預防措施﹖包括監視畫面還不足要改善﹖嚴禁將器械與收容人使用﹖還有督導人員必須不定期的去稽查瞭解﹖這個各場設的適同作業收容人的作業情況﹖是否還有可以調整更為完善呢﹖你認為還有沒有值得行政機關更為改善的部分"},{"start":4598.843,"end":4622.671,"text":"每一個案子都有調整改善的空間那我們會再注意這件事所以關切人權行使監察權對行政機關做要求也是貴院的一個職權是好那麼請教一下一個歷史懸案1981年有一個陳文辰事件那麼這個陳文辰事件就是遭警總秘密約談約談就是也沒有拘票請他出來聊一聊他非嫌疑犯"},{"start":4623.371,"end":4647.57,"text":"那所以呢後來呢這個警總就不得在秘密約談了齁那根據警察偵查犯罪手冊他說查查可疑之人警察呢應遵守刑事訴訟法警察職權刑事法及警協使用條例去進行取締盤查檢查及搜索請問一下就教於秘書長你的法律專業齁怎麼去定義區分可疑之人跟嫌疑犯呢"},{"start":4649.245,"end":4659.713,"text":"陳文成是不是嫌疑犯跟委員報告陳文成案我們調查過兩次監察院歷屆以來他不是嫌疑犯所以他的情況之下後面我會再提連不是嫌疑犯的人不過我提醒總委員這個是在1981年發生的當時的時空環境背景"},{"start":4673.323,"end":4689.532,"text":"那麼你認為基於人權委員會對於弱權人質的執掌我們對於凌虐或酷刑事前預防跟事後懲處你覺得哪個要優先進行都很重要人權會的角度我們是希望強調在事前預防"},{"start":4691.572,"end":4712.538,"text":"懲處有法規,法規上有預防的部分是否完善,我們看一下中華民國刑法第126條有管收解送拘禁人犯植物之公園對於人犯施以凌虐者,就類似酷刑處有期徒刑,刑法要懲處那你認為目前的這個法規,就你的法律見解,刑法126條的預防上是否完善"},{"start":4714.179,"end":4733.288,"text":"我對這個不適合表示意見那你認為他這裡面的人犯包括嫌疑犯我不太懂就是拘禁人犯因為他禁止那如果是嫌疑犯我們就禁止他對於拘禁人犯或解送的時候要不得已凌虐是不是"},{"start":4734.651,"end":4757.324,"text":"所以人犯的規定是不是嫌疑犯中委員我們跟您報告有關法規的討論這個刑法126條並沒有在我們監察院的討論範圍可以啦我只是就教你的法律意見啦我不是法律人其實呢我們在這裡又遇到一個陳文成案他連人犯可能都稱不上因為他也不是嫌疑犯所以其實酷刑公約在目前刑法上的規定顯有不足"},{"start":4759.005,"end":4759.865,"text":"人權委員會能有效行使職權嗎?"},{"start":4773.46,"end":4783.165,"text":"我們還是希望我們的職權行使的相關規定能夠盡快通過是的這就是我關切的那目前人權委員的行使法立法院通過三法案第一那時候在2019年通過人權委員會組織法那你們就設了國家人權委員會那你包括了組織法國家人權委員會的組織法對不對監察院的組織法也修正了對不對"},{"start":4798.874,"end":4814.296,"text":"包括監察院委員會組織法的條文修正草案也通過了嘛那你們113年今年的立法計畫打算修監察法當中提出一個人權專章請問這個人權專章跟人權委員的刑事法你們覺得怎麼去區隔它"},{"start":4816,"end":4839.321,"text":"這個中委員我跟你報告兩件事情第一個就是職權行使我們透過監察法的專章來行使那這個部分在上一屆第10屆的立法委員會那是不是這樣的話有專章就不需要再有一個人權委員會的行使法那如果有人權委員會的行使法可能就不需要監察法的專章沒有我跟委員報告職權行使法的部分其實連我們的委員也有很多不同的意見"},{"start":4841.301,"end":4860.979,"text":"我要跟各位講的是人權機關獨立的人權機關不一定要設有作用法才成為必要的要件但是如果沒有作用法你們監察法也要有專章才足以讓人權委員會發生作用對我們希望更完整那如果有行使法也是可以讓人權委員會落實他的職權"},{"start":4862.327,"end":4886.78,"text":"對不是一定要為前提啦有專章也可以所以專章是你們要提那如果是質詢行使的話我們立法院也可以提這個就是我跟委員報告的立法院當初通過人權委員會組織法的時候做了一個附帶決議這個附帶決議要求我們以監察法的形式我了解我了解所以我要釐清這一點今天你來報告立法計畫是就監察法的部分的人權專章"},{"start":4887.52,"end":4887.74,"text":"法規與空間設置完備"},{"start":4904.264,"end":4923.463,"text":"是不是用這些方式如果說要禁止酷刑公約如果沒有施刑法我們完善現行法規有沒有可能達到事前預防的效果比如說有些密閉的空尿監視器就像你們的要求報告有可以有效的相當程度的達到事前防範你覺得這樣有沒有符合禁止酷刑公約的目的"},{"start":4925.162,"end":4925.942,"text":"立法院秘書長"},{"start":4945.624,"end":4960.584,"text":"我們希望人權委員會立場希望行政院能夠去支持這個禁止酷刑公約當中相關的施行的部分的法規那這個法規呢行政院可能要不要去弄一個施行法那是行政院提出立法院也可以有看法"},{"start":4961.104,"end":4985.315,"text":"但是目前既然監察院已經有個人權委員會了你沒打算訂定人權專章了不管他是要行使法還是要人權專章是由你們訂還是由立法院這邊來提出但是如果人權委員會有一個專章或行使法他是不是可以有效的去監督要求各行政機關去完善他們現在包括收容人犯包括警察傳喚羈押或者押送相關的規定"},{"start":4990.817,"end":5007.525,"text":"．使得酷刑的情況不適於發生．你覺得有沒有幫助兩個部分 第一個部分 監察院的職責是監督阿特別是國家人權委員會是監督那至於執行的部分 我的理解是行政院近期之內就會提出酷刑公約的相關法案"},{"start":5008.365,"end":5033.255,"text":"監督行政院去執行嘛行政院他的人權委員會如果有個專章或行司法他更可以要求去監督行政院有沒有在相關的配套完善嘛是不是這樣所以說如果我們第一個主張就是人權會要督導各級行政機關落實人權對不對那麼我們希望要做重在事前的預防而不是只有事後的懲處你同意嗎我同意這個騙解我跟中委員是一樣"},{"start":5033.655,"end":5057.375,"text":"那希望我希望監察院能夠盡早提出你們的說法叫做人權委員會的專章那以立人權委員會來督導各級行政機關能夠在相關的配套上不一定要立法在相關的行政法規上就能夠落實對於包括這個所謂的人犯或者說廣義的可能遭受國家酷刑的這些對待人能夠落實保障他的人權你願不願意來支持"},{"start":5059.436,"end":5060.276,"text":"以上謝謝我們宗教兵委員的諮詢"},{"start":5088.639,"end":5091,"text":"主席有請秘書長有請李秘書長秘書長請教一下地方巡查我們監察院一年的經費是多少"},{"start":5118.245,"end":5120.548,"text":"那我想根據剛剛黃國昌委員問的問題您在當立法委員的時候曾經說過地方巡查無意義因自廢 對不對"},{"start":5135.143,"end":5153.701,"text":"我當立委的時候是我今天不是以立委身份來沒有關係我今天是以立法委員我非常認同李俊逸前立法委員的意見所以我來幫助李俊逸前立法委員今年的預算審查我們來協助你把地方監察巡查把預算全部砍掉讓你實現你自費的目標好不好"},{"start":5155.353,"end":5183.726,"text":"等到預算再來討論很好,所以你不反對嘛,謝謝你我沒有不反對,我說等到預算,今天不能討論預算沒有關係,那我想請教您我剛才也看到您在答詢的過程中,剛好也是有一題我要問的就是說講到我們的監察委員的這個所謂的績效然後你回答了一句說其實最近這幾屆各界的案件辦的其實差不多,是這個意思嗎?是好,這一句話我先記下來,待會我就來看看你們案件數辦的如何"},{"start":5185.27,"end":5208.158,"text":"最近我們看這個監察委員的績效 可以從質跟量兩個角度來看嘛我先來談質的問題最近蘇丹紅風暴越演越烈 食安五環 破工 上下游全數失守那其實這個涉案的理性負責人 2018年就開始進口相關的產品他的旗下十間公司都被陸續檢出蘇丹紅"},{"start":5210.319,"end":5237.916,"text":"政府竟然6年放任演變成今天的系統性的食安風暴那最離譜是這個公司蘇丹紅產品在邊境被查驗出來之後他不是銷毀是退運然後轉一圈再用其他人頭公司的名義再進來3年前他還出了一個青辣椒粉被下游驗出有蘇丹紅退貨然後沒有將貨品銷毀然後再用同批反賣給另家廠商"},{"start":5240.057,"end":5263.864,"text":"我想要問一下監察院過去對於食安把關方面有什麼具體的作為我們對食安的個案我們查過很多案那有關羅委員剛剛提到的蘇丹紅現在也立案調查非常好我期待我們的監察院對於蘇丹紅的這個立案調查能夠交給民眾我們一個滿意的結果不過我跟秘書長說"},{"start":5264.704,"end":5281.434,"text":"坦白講我對於我們監察院的辦案我不是那麼有信心為什麼先來從過去幾個食安風暴我想請教您2008年奶粉違法添加三聚氰胺事件監察院查出衛生署有沒有查出疏失"},{"start":5284.741,"end":5302.476,"text":"五大疏失通過糾正2011年塑化劑污染事件查出7個問題糾正行政院衛生署、環保署2013年所謂的添加畫質澱粉事件有點像現在蘇丹紅事件類似"},{"start":5303.497,"end":5316.682,"text":"當時也糾正衛福部跟經濟部那到2017年就是我們現在蔡英文總統上任之後雞蛋剪出分埔泥請問你我們的這個監察院查的結果是什麼這個部分我們是糾正糾正農委會管理書師嘛對不對是誰哪個監委糾正的"},{"start":5328.732,"end":5357.461,"text":"第5屆的展櫃美跟王美玉委員對嘛就是馬總統提名的展櫃美嘛對不對好接下來2018年業者回收不良彈品重製液彈販售這些都是我們行政院可能認定類似所謂系統性那我想請問當時有將近百萬個黑心彈流入市面烘焙業自助餐全中標請問那個時候已經是蔡總統提名的監察委員通過了什麼"},{"start":5358.983,"end":5377.639,"text":"這個部分還在調查當中通過調查報告啦 零糾正啦 對不對什麼在調查 通過調查報告零糾正啊我再想請教你去年發生的巴西進口袋洗產地的爭議當然你還在調查中嘛 對不對所以我要告訴你 從池的部分為什麼第二年的蘇丹紅 到現在"},{"start":5379.361,"end":5394.939,"text":"會發生系統性越演越烈監察院做事後懲處單位其實就像一條鞭子嘛 對不對他可以督促政府來去把食安等於是以後不要重導過錯嘛 對不對如果蘇丹好農部分是上個禮拜才立案的"},{"start":5395.815,"end":5418.559,"text":"對我當然知道上禮拜亮我要講的就是你們系統性對食安的部分坦白講對政府的監督力道我覺得鞭子要再加強一點接下來我再從亮的部分來告訴你這個都是個案每一個案情都不同我告訴你沒關係啊直的部分你都變個案嘛我也懂啦我們來講亮的部分你剛剛自己講其實這幾屆監委辦的案子都亮都差不多對不對"},{"start":5420.28,"end":5444.113,"text":"請教您我們分第4屆第5屆第6屆監委第4屆的監委全是馬總統提名的第5屆有重疊一半一半對不對差不多啦有一部分是馬英九一部分是蔡英文那第6屆就是全是蔡英文提名的對不對我們來比較第4屆跟第6屆全部馬英九提名跟全部蔡英文提名請問彈劾案第4屆每個月平均多少案月結多少案"},{"start":5447.062,"end":5456.901,"text":"每個月平均多少案你們這邊寫的是兩案好 謝謝齁然後呢你知道我們的蔡總統完全第6屆監委是多少1.8嘛 對不對"},{"start":5459.96,"end":5476.295,"text":"1.8是沒有差別很大啦但是我要問你下一個囉糾正案 羅遠我再補充一句第4屆的這個堂和案很多是兼職案件是同一類型好啦我告訴你你要再去分別我直接跟你講我再來講糾正案糾正案第4屆監委16.1每個月請問我們的第6屆多少"},{"start":5483.737,"end":5508.679,"text":"每個月7件啦我講的是今天通過糾正不是說今天你調查的案件你糾正案就是馬政府每個月16.1啊你的每個月全平均就是7.0啊不到一半啊那我再想請教你調查案齁請問你知道第4屆監委調查案月均多少件嗎"},{"start":5510.7,"end":5530.268,"text":"這個羅委員我提醒你一下第4屆的情況因為監委有缺額好啦我告訴你監委有缺額人家調查案件比你積極喔因為太多的案件是積極案沒有我跟你講結果嘛我不要講調查案件而已我光講說結果調查案你不能只看數字重點不在數字"},{"start":5530.868,"end":5532.79,"text":"總共1671件 月均23件啊你們那麼關心人權報告"},{"start":5552.528,"end":5570.919,"text":"人權委員會是在20208月1號才成立的就算人權委員會20208月1號成立人家沒有成立之前人權的調查的案件就比你要多過將近3倍我們現在人權的案子是由人權委員會來打的所以這個統計數字是沒有意義的這樣的統計數字是沒有意義的我們現在人權的案子是由人權委員會來打的"},{"start":5579.244,"end":5580.025,"text":"實安過去的查你的糾正次數是最少的"},{"start":5596.463,"end":5597.083,"text":"所以案件數不是重點嗎"},{"start":5616.485,"end":5616.825,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5636.553,"end":5636.993,"text":"監察院功能張不張"},{"start":5656.523,"end":5667.409,"text":"監委辦案績效好不好 讓我們社會大眾來去看那我再跟你講 說真的 我覺得我們監察院的辦案素質我講一個親身經歷的案件 你知道監察院很認真查那個所謂財產 我們講那個政治獻金嘛 對不對政治獻金財產申報對嘛 很認真查嘛 你很認真查了我的政治獻金啊 對不對"},{"start":5682.625,"end":5695.078,"text":"然後你知道嗎 有一次監察院在2018年的2020年的時候說我的政治獻金有4筆姓名跟身份證字號不符 最少的一筆306元還說要罰我6萬到120萬我想請問你齁 最後結果是什麼 我的申報是實還是不實"},{"start":5702.602,"end":5705.204,"text":"我告訴你 我們的辦公室跟你們查詢 你們態度可不是這樣"},{"start":5716.84,"end":5739.726,"text":"我們報告搞了一個禮拜中還是透過臺北市民政局來確定還我清白你們的辦案品質結果就被臺北市民政局打臉最後跟我講系統錯誤那你的系統也太入伍了吧我們完全依照內政部的系統我知道謝謝你阿為什麼那臺北市民政局的系統就跟你答案是不一樣最後我要講時間到了感謝你謝謝好謝謝羅委員謝謝李秘書長"},{"start":5745.373,"end":5769.222,"text":"那主席在這裡再度的提醒今天我們排案是請監察院來報告113年度的立法計畫立法院監察院在憲法條文當中跟總統和其他五院都同為憲政機關所以呢今天監察院系一憲法第71條立法院開會時關西院"},{"start":5773.864,"end":5799.127,"text":"關西院跟行政院向立法院負責的情況有不同他是來及各部位首長來列席陳述意見所以希望發言委員可以體察這之間行政院向立法院負責的質詢方式以及本市會議的主旨以及憲法規定的監察院跟立法院的關係跟今天列席報告說明的首長的立場"},{"start":5799.787,"end":5821.492,"text":"有些不太一樣：謝謝那接下來有請副總召：坤城委員質詢：發言齁主席請秘書長有請李秘書長副委員好這樣子對談有沒有比較輕鬆一點"},{"start":5828.59,"end":5852.216,"text":"我覺得因為我第8屆的時候也是這樣第9屆改了所以我都適應蠻好的請問一下這個秘書長我們監察院自古以來叫御史大夫這是非常非常重要對於所有我們所有官員的考評觀真觀德所有的查詢要為一個國家"},{"start":5856.618,"end":5883.892,"text":"能夠梳理好文官制度我們監察院是非常重要查核的一個單位對不對監察院是一個重要的憲政機關那我們處理的就是公務人員公務員的違法失職對阿現在這個行政院片面宣布6月1號開始阿這個台灣不能組團團客赴大陸喔台灣人民依照憲法中華民國憲法有沒有遷徙的自由"},{"start":5885.117,"end":5892.15,"text":"我跟委員報告 這個部分屬於政策的討論 監察院不便有任何的意見政策討論是行政院跟立法院的市值"},{"start":5893.069,"end":5893.109,"text":"所以﹖"},{"start":5917.679,"end":5918.199,"text":"2018年2018年2018年2018年2018年2018年2018年"},{"start":5945.205,"end":5971.681,"text":"就已經查出在我們的編遣就已經查出來不但沒有沒入銷毀還把它退回這個是高雄地檢署發布的訊息再加上這個民進黨有好幾位委員都表示蘇貞虹早就在2021年2023年衛福部就已經知道了"},{"start":5972.679,"end":5973.801,"text":"請問一下秘書長：海關有沒有人模不彰"},{"start":5987.855,"end":5992.018,"text":"這個我跟部委員報告2018年監察院並沒有有關蘇丹紅的調查蘇丹紅的調查我們是上個禮拜有委員自動調查那我們監察院只能查這樣我沒有緊張我只是報告事實我只是報告事實對我跟部委員報告事實謝謝不好意思我沒有講什麼"},{"start":6018.315,"end":6031.32,"text":"若高雄地檢署說的屬實海關有沒有失職這個部分我們都在調查中調查中的案子我不便發表任何意見衛福部有沒有失職我不便發表任何意見"},{"start":6032.984,"end":6057.806,"text":"地檢署偵查部不公開都已經講了 你們監察院什麼時候變成不公開的單位我不曉得陽光照不進來啊我作為幕僚長我本來就不能有任何的批評第一個海關 第二個衛福部早就知情為什麼還造成這種系統性的這麼大的一個風暴再過來食藥署說 哎呀台灣人民沒有關係啦"},{"start":6059.267,"end":6087.61,"text":"蘇貞雄就跟喝茶喝咖啡一樣啦齁這實在有夠誇張啊秘書長你們這個調查報告什麼時候可以出來我們上個禮拜自動調查大概什麼時候可以出來調查案這個應該是重大的跟他的性質有關我們要看是一般案件重大案件或是特殊重大案件大概多久嘛這關係到全民健康的問題嘛如果一般案件的話是三個月重大案件是六個月那重大特殊案件是一年"},{"start":6088.989,"end":6108.607,"text":"本席請教一下這麼簡單的案子屬於哪一種案子你告訴本席這個部分要由委員來決定不是由我來決定秘書長依照你的經驗你都做到秘書長了監察院的秘書長你判斷不出來嗎這個各個委員對每一個個案有不同的意見所以我不便表達任何意見你的意思說要拖一年是嗎"},{"start":6110.406,"end":6134.31,"text":"這個算是國家重大案件嗎有這麼難查嗎這個部分我跟部委員報告監察院監察委員一線把他獨立行使職權我作為一個幕僚長我不便做任何的評斷那他們要列為一般案件或是重大案件或是特殊重大案件這不是我的權責你不能疑問三不知嗎我沒有疑問三不知我很清楚的告訴監察院的規定是什麼本席就靜候"},{"start":6139.144,"end":6167.754,"text":"看你們辦案的能力有沒有像辦羅志強立委這麼快來我們再來請教本席就看你是三個月六個月還是一年我們拭目以待再過來這個陸配啊四年入籍還是六年入籍四加二是六年一般的外配是三加一四年"},{"start":6168.683,"end":6176.327,"text":"我們現在請教一下,如果陸配偶6年改為跟所有外籍一樣,這樣符不符合國際人權的兩公約?"},{"start":6185.782,"end":6199.525,"text":"我回應副委員兩個意見第一個我們不因膚色、階級、貧窮或富貴有任何的差別這是一個第二個陸配跟外配它適用的法規是不一樣的"},{"start":6200.442,"end":6229.685,"text":"陸配是適用兩岸人民關係條例那外配的話是移民法所以兩個本來就不一樣那相關的規定也會不同相關規定就是因為可以調整嘛當然可以修法可以調整啊所以本席在問你有沒有符合國際人權兩公約啊有沒有人權平等的問題啊有沒有國際平權的問題啊是我跟委員報告如果要平等到底平等的定義是什麼"},{"start":6230.245,"end":6256.413,"text":"那我們現在最重要的就是 追求不敷階級的這個所以剛剛請教你的是有沒有符合國際人權兩公約有還是沒有適用的法規不同我無法跟副委員做別的訓練國際兩公約對人權的基本保障秘書長你都判斷不出來我沒有判斷不出來這我跟副委員我跟你講得很清楚五院院長的秘書長"},{"start":6258.611,"end":6265.995,"text":"國際人權公約你回去再study本期下次還會請教你本期下次還會請教你再問你啊這個打詐齁現在越打越詐到底啊我們的國家現在失能的程度到什麼狀況監察院還在睡覺嗎沒有睡覺 監察院很清楚的更新"},{"start":6286.052,"end":6287.333,"text":"民進黨執政8年每1年都向上攀升阿"},{"start":6308.494,"end":6336.208,"text":"監察院做了什麼本席在請教這個問題阿有關打炸的個案我們其實查了也不少那有關這個您說有沒有跟行政院提起本席沒有要你調查打炸你又不是第一線人員你們必須對行政院這些不會考核嘛他們做了什麼嘛所以我跟副委員報告的是上次就是去年年底的時候我們還有特別跟行政院提到這件事這是在中央巡查的時候講的是順便提到的"},{"start":6337.148,"end":6340.29,"text":"臺灣人民不分老幼每一個人平均不要接受至少10次以上的詐騙電話臺灣是無政府狀態嗎提醒你們糾合了哪些人糾談了哪些人還在提醒"},{"start":6366.388,"end":6385.316,"text":"我跟副委員報告這個要一個案這是個案本席什麼叫個案全民的公案什麼叫個案每一個案都要以個案來看嘛監察院做的就是個案調查部會做了什麼成績嘛本席在請教這個問題嘛所以嘛我們每一個都個案所以嘛我們要求行政院好了你講的個案本席在告訴你啦什麼叫個案不要講8年啦5年就好啦"},{"start":6392.438,"end":6398.821,"text":"近5年炸雞案的統計打炸案了108年度23647件109年23054件110年24724件111年29509件112年去年37984件一次膨脹了30幾%這幾乎是政府已經試了已經癱瘓了"},{"start":6429.018,"end":6446.083,"text":"這國會不能夠來請教就教於監察院嗎?你們對所有的部會做了什麼樣的糾取什麼樣的彈劾?這種成績可以嗎?副委員我跟你們報告這個查詐騙打詐的部份這是行政院的職責不是我們監察院的職責"},{"start":6446.903,"end":6446.943,"text":"什麼時候"},{"start":6476.385,"end":6485.944,"text":"我們台灣的部會能夠真正好好來辦事 減少人民的痛苦跟壓力我們也希望這樣那本期拭目以待"},{"start":6488.855,"end":6508.354,"text":"謝謝副總召謝謝李秘書長主席在這裡再三要跟我們委員會報告副總召報告本委員會除了發言台已經按照其他委員會的方式先設置之外司法法制委員會有一個跟其他委員會略有不同的地方司法法制委員會可能是唯一"},{"start":6509.595,"end":6533.572,"text":"憲法的其他憲政機關五院的其他關係院會到本委員會來就預算項目就立法計畫來列席說明那這不同於行政院對立法院負責由立法院對行政部門長官進行官員進行質詢那今天我們排定的議程是監察院113年度的立法計畫"},{"start":6535.233,"end":6562.61,"text":"也希望我們各位委員在司法法制委員會當中秉持憲法第71條的規定我們是邀請關西院的院長及各部會首長來列席陳述意見今天陳述意見的主題是監察院113年的立法計畫監察院不是來這邊做施政報告有請各位委員明察接下來有請林委員思明發言"},{"start":6568.308,"end":6589.385,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請秘書長林委員好是秘書長好我想針對剛才那個召委所提示的其實召委我想我們大家都不是之前的委員對於說我們邀請各部會的官員來這個列席來做業務報告"},{"start":6590.826,"end":6615.135,"text":"當然我們每位委員有時候會這個問跟今天的專題有所不一樣的一個問題但是一定也是跟監察院的業務有關所以我們會問的題目有時候會不限於這個專題也請召委見諒大家好今天我想我剛才大家一直提到這個監委的績效的監察院的績效的問題我有看到好幾位委員都在問"},{"start":6616.215,"end":6619.239,"text":"那你認為說這個我們去評鑑監察院的績效因為你們一直強調說不以這個案件的鑑數來評價你們的績效那你認為要用什麼樣子來作為評鑑"},{"start":6634.592,"end":6645.064,"text":"立法院、監察院都是憲政機關,評價社會各自有公平,所以用案件來不一定是一個合理的方式你們內部有沒有做評鑑?"},{"start":6648.12,"end":6649.96,"text":"監察院在今年1月20日曾對外表示外界不依警評調查案件的建訴來評價監察院的績效"},{"start":6673.266,"end":6690.196,"text":"但是監察院馬上又說112年監察院收受人民書狀16418件是近8年來每年提升所以就叫秘書長那你不是也是以案件書來說明自己的績效嗎是我跟您委員說明"},{"start":6691.396,"end":6718.598,"text":"這個部分我剛才一再強調因為憲法規定監察委員獨立行使職權所以不宜由案件的數的多少因為每個人查的案子到底是大案或小案到底查的是哪一個部分那第二個部分來人民書狀的部分我跟委員報告人民書狀的部分就是書狀量有成長這個本來就是一個事實我們只是提出來那個事實而已每年我們把每年都提出來那我再明確的問您啦我希望您能明確回答"},{"start":6719.218,"end":6737.535,"text":"那您覺得監察院的績效是該用哪些指標來評斷才正確其實監察院很難用特殊的指標就是最重要的是有沒有把違法失職的部分揪出來這個才是憲法賦予我們的權利是 民務長我想我告訴你我想目前事實上"},{"start":6738.916,"end":6762.344,"text":"監察院調查案件數目﹖大家外界普遍認為調查案件數目低落﹖更重要的﹖對於全國民眾關心的議題﹖監察院的監察權行使﹖是否有速行速決﹖這是大家最關心的﹖包含最近的金門海域的陸船翻覆事件﹖"},{"start":6763.284,"end":6784.877,"text":"蘇丹鴻的流竄全台的食安事件以及上週陳院長表示新聞台不該由政府關台我們看到這幾件事情各部會的表現可以說荒腔走板問題仍然存在都沒有解決我們也看不到真相或者解決的方案"},{"start":6785.777,"end":6812.231,"text":"所以本席要在這邊強調確實案件數不是唯一評價監察院的指標因為更重要的是監察院對於人民關心的重大事件或是一些政府單位的濫權有沒有積極快速的調查是不是有所帶動有虧職守我想這個才是我們民眾最關心的所以我來跟你討論一下食安的問題"},{"start":6814.232,"end":6829.251,"text":"就林委員的部分我可以回答很快好你趕快你技術回答兩個問題第一個問題就是監察委員依憲法是負以獨立行使職權所以這個部分我們監察院一般認定他是事後權我們只處理公務員有沒有違法失職"},{"start":6829.972,"end":6856.175,"text":"那除了這個以外：案件的快慢：案件的多寡：不是監察院考慮的重點是那個秘書長這個您都是標準答案在過去您也一直回答委員但是我想對於重大的社會事件那您期待的就是對香港根本會我們能夠盡快的去查個水落石出給我們全民社會一個交代我們現在來看那個食安事件那請問"},{"start":6857.536,"end":6880.569,"text":"這個食安風暴事件有沒有委員已經立案調查了有蘇丹紅已經立案調查那好我整理一下這個就是我們現在關心的這個蘇丹紅的生意事件我們講行政院以及衛福部有四大荒謬之處第一個衛福部在去年就成查獲但是沒有任何作為第二個廠商違法添加竟是民眾檢舉證明邊境檢查失守"},{"start":6884.612,"end":6891.818,"text":"3.廠商是否有做產品流向上下游的登記,實要署長吳秀梅無正面回應4."},{"start":6891.818,"end":6898.803,"text":"蘇丹紅事件爆發,行政院陳建仁自誇,實案成效好,證明高層忽視"},{"start":6900.284,"end":6919.755,"text":"衛福部在2023年就已經查獲9件蘇丹紅進口但3次食安會報與專報竟然是知智未提行政院長陳建仁還在專案報告中口口聲稱我國的食安很好結果直到民眾檢舉蘇丹紅才爆發這件事情"},{"start":6920.935,"end":6942.027,"text":"根據行政院最新的施政報告．以要求大規模的食品業者設定食安安全的監控以及追溯系統．但執政多年的執政黨、民進黨並無競速建立．如今問題仍然還在．驗證政府的食安管理、食安溯源根本就是大破功．更誇張的"},{"start":6943.468,"end":6968.441,"text":"事件發生已經超過半個月 衛福部直到3月4號才定調為系統性的食安事件食藥署在3月6號才急忙在關網設置專區 把批號公開讓大眾查詢民眾早就把有問題的食品已經下肚了 國人還能相信政府說食安沒有疑慮嗎"},{"start":6970.291,"end":6985.848,"text":"現在那個衛福部在今天他表示說他會在一個月之內解決這一次的蘇丹紅的問題所以我要請教我們監察院是否也可以在近期競速就可以把這個調查報告做出來"},{"start":6987.37,"end":6998.38,"text":"跟林委員報告你剛所說的都是行政院的事情我監察院不便評論但我們監察院為了這件事情已經立案調查我們會在調查報告寫得很清楚我希望盡快進速啦"},{"start":7003.944,"end":7028.96,"text":"現在衛福部講說他一個月之內就會做出做出問題的解決所以我們能不能盡快盡速我剛才講出那麼多問題讓監察院知道我剛才講的就是讓您了解這個問題所在所以是不是可以也在一個月之內做出調查報告這個時間的部分我沒辦法承諾這個是委員的職權已經立案調查了嘛所以我希望秘書長您能夠要求"},{"start":7029.76,"end":7047.267,"text":"我不能要求委員獨立行使職權我沒有能但是你在召開整個會議的時候沒有沒有這個都是獨立行使職權所以我不能去要求委員你這個查快一點你這個查慢一點剛才你有回答了啦但是這個民主黨人民期待的案件我們還是希望監察院盡速查明事實真相否則讓人家列為重大案件或特殊重大案件"},{"start":7056.391,"end":7057.612,"text":"這次海巡署的問題我想海巡署"},{"start":7081.255,"end":7099.947,"text":"這個於依法執行的時候必須使用密錄器以免造成執法的爭議但是這一次竟然我們立法院決議要給他購買密錄器當時也表示要購買但是這一次的事件竟然發生海巡人員沒有配掛密錄器"},{"start":7100.988,"end":7116.484,"text":"所以沒有一個密錄器的影像所以這方面我們有沒有立法就是那個立案調查有沒有有我跟委員報告這個案子在3月7號立案調查所以您剛提到的問題應該都會在調查報告中呈現好"},{"start":7118.292,"end":7139.262,"text":"還有行政院數位身份證的問題我想這次媒體也報導非常多廠商是要求求償10億在今年1月經過6次調解後雙方達成共識賠償金額在2.8億左右請問民主黨同樣的問題我們監察院是不是已經立案調查這個案子"},{"start":7140.891,"end":7165.463,"text":"我跟委員報告一下,數費身分證的話我們在110年有調查過那我們的結論是要求這個內政部國發會檢討改善檢討改善,這次遇到要賠償啊賠償沒有相關的人員要負責嗎?只有改善相關人員的疏失責任要不要追究?這個案子我們會看這個委員有沒有提出自動調查"},{"start":7167.87,"end":7180.581,"text":"目前還沒有所以我講說監察院都是後知後覺啦我們也可以依據原來的案子再繼續後面的調查我們還是每個案子我們都還是會追蹤的是 我想謠長在這邊真的與眾心長的"},{"start":7183.684,"end":7184.404,"text":"希望監察院"},{"start":7206.339,"end":7228.343,"text":"謝謝林委員也謝謝李秘書長那大家的討論非常激烈也很嚴肅說個輕鬆的如果想要事前預防犯罪可以參考湯姆克魯斯主委員的關鍵報告可以在犯罪者犯罪之前就把他抓起來好接下來我們有請吳委員中線發言好謝謝主席我們有請秘書長"},{"start":7232.805,"end":7262.014,"text":"無言好謝謝秘書長秘書長那個你以前也擔任過第8跟第9屆兩屆的立委是對那今天父親是我們所有法院都非常尊敬的崇拜的無體投地的一位大師級的教授我今天是以監察院秘書長身分來的是是是那我想說憲法的部分你應該也都非常熟悉嗎那是我的專長是是對這我們都知道"},{"start":7263.718,"end":7286.557,"text":"那我是想喔就是說最近我們其實一直就這個國會改革的部分那我們蠻多的爭議那尤其是其實有國會改革有很多的我們這次提的東西其實都是當初民進黨以前提出來過的那這段時間憲法也沒有很大的修正啊那我也不懂說為什麼當年覺得這個是合憲"},{"start":7290.04,"end":7291.001,"text":"我可能提幾個啦"},{"start":7309.861,"end":7330.546,"text":"我請教一下就釋字325號其實它就立法院跟監察院在於在文件調閱等權限上面其實應該也說得蠻清楚的也就是說立法院在法案還有一些預算案的審理的時候它本身就有一個文件調閱的權限我想這個釋字的內容應該"},{"start":7333.507,"end":7350.134,"text":"那個秘書長一定了解我跟您報告一下4至325它的原始由來是因為監察院已經變成不是國會了過去的國會包括國民大會、立法院跟監察院那1994年監察院不再是國會"},{"start":7351.114,"end":7355.358,"text":"所以4-325強調的是說 憲法原來規定95條96條的調查權仍然由監察院來執行但是立法院可以有文件調閱權這是4-325號主要的重點"},{"start":7368.328,"end":7393.261,"text":"那我現在來提一個東西就是說其實我們這一次在談到這個金門番傳案的時候這到底可不可以成立這個調閱小組那其實有一些爭執嘛那我們當然有提出一些講法當然也有一些就是貴黨的委員他也提出說這個其實成立調查小組這個是有問題的但是我想提一下就是說其實2016年的時候那時候我們在處理慶富案"},{"start":7394.261,"end":7415.136,"text":"立法院在處理慶富案的時候當時立法院也有成立過兩個調閱小組那為什麼當時成立調閱小組我記得好像是王定宇委員嘛那我看過發言的也還有莊瑞雄委員那當時這個調閱小組都不會有爭議那今天卻有爭議跑出來這個部分我"},{"start":7416.437,"end":7438.012,"text":"其實我不是很了解我只是在這邊講一下我的想法啦那當然這個跟監察院沒有絕對的關聯性那我再來提一下就是說其實蔡英文政府啊蔡英文在上任的時候她其實提過一個很重要的東西就是她認為說考試院跟監察院應該要廢掉"},{"start":7439.153,"end":7462.527,"text":"那他認為廢考監這個事情是民進黨長期以來的主張那我不知道這個民主黨對這一塊有沒有什麼想法廢考監的部分是民進黨長期以來主張這個我了解那過去第8屆第10屆這個都有提過廢考監的一個主張但是第10屆沒有討論第8屆有討論但是國民黨不同意"},{"start":7467.529,"end":7488.161,"text":"監察院對這件事情 因為修憲是立法院的職權我們監察院對這個沒有評論我必須講一個我之前我在市府的時候其實我對於監察院的調查我自己心裡很有感觸啦尤其非常多的案子其實我們也不懂為什麼監察院的認定會"},{"start":7489.462,"end":7489.722,"text":"獨立請指示"},{"start":7506.426,"end":7522.418,"text":"獨立行使他的職權獨立行使職權依照憲法第7條第5款說得很清楚監察委員要超越黨派不能把黨派放在心中我也是提醒秘書長"},{"start":7523.579,"end":7537.575,"text":"有機會其實要跟各個委員再提一下憲法徵修條文的這個部分絕對要超越黨派就像我剛剛說的我在市府的時候非常有感觸很多東西如果照這樣玩有時候有人就感覺監察院怎麼到最後好像"},{"start":7538.82,"end":7539.22,"text":"接下來我再談一個案子"},{"start":7556.312,"end":7582.814,"text":"跟檢察官有關的那是前幾年的案子那這個案子其實是造成了檢方非常大的反彈我想就是大家所謂的區棍球案區棍球那個案子區棍球案你們應該知道嘛那這個案子呢當時的這個監察委員他對承辦的檢察官彰化地檢的檢察官他前後做了兩次"},{"start":7583.973,"end":7595.11,"text":"他提了好像是提了兩次的彈劾是不是那我現在來提的點就是第一個第一個"},{"start":7597.213,"end":7625.441,"text":"有沒有違反一事不在理就程序上面對同一個案子這個案子他即使你今天照監察院的反駁是說他不是就同一個行為但是他這個東西也是有他一體性的判斷因為一體性的判斷不管是德國不管是我國只要符合一體性的判斷你不能就一個個案的某一個行為A行為跟B行為這兩個檢查同一個檢察官有A行為跟B行為結果你把它分兩次彈劾"},{"start":7626.481,"end":7649.773,"text":"這個在程序上面絕對違反一式不在理的原則我不知道為什麼監察院要去欺負檢察官這是我...我跟...可以跟吳委員報告嗎?我跟吳委員報告齁 這個陳榮祥的案子的確經過監察院的彈劾目前仍然還在懲戒法院當中那你所說的 所提的說為什麼有兩次因為懲戒法院認為有兩個不同的室友"},{"start":7652.028,"end":7662.356,"text":"我必須講啦齁這個他在一體性上面是沒有問題而且是同一個案子我不知道為什麼可以這樣做再來我們都很清楚"},{"start":7663.666,"end":7671.49,"text":"我跟吳委員報告這是依照監察法第8條相關的規定有新事實新證據而且懲戒法院對第一個彈劾案以後他就說其實還有其他的部分你們沒有查到"},{"start":7692.359,"end":7701.011,"text":"所以這個部分我們才會進行第二次新事實新事證的查處那查處完以後我們送懲戒法院現在仍然在懲戒法院當中"},{"start":7701.576,"end":7721.735,"text":"新事實新證據怎麼會是這樣解釋呢秘書長我想你可能再去請教一下法律學者新事實新證據這是法律人都很了解的東西這絕對是原來的案子中沒有出現的東西才叫新事實新證據你自己肉味省卓怎麼叫新事實新證據如果照這樣講新書法260條新事實新證據那就"},{"start":7724.938,"end":7729.02,"text":"委員有兩位一位是律師一位還當過高院的法庭長他們不會不懂法律竟然做出這樣子的認定我說真的我沒有辦法理解而且我很替彰化地檢的那位檢察官叫屈不應該這樣欺負檢察官不應該這樣侵害司法權"},{"start":7753.572,"end":7764.405,"text":"謝謝吳委員我跟吳委員報告這個是懲戒法院的意見所以我們遵從懲戒法院的意見進行第二次的彈劾案那這個部分相關的資料我事後是不是再提供給吳委員"},{"start":7768.676,"end":7783.13,"text":"程序的部分這個不叫做新事實新證據這個根本就是違反一次不在理的原則再來我再提到有關實體的部分也有問題今天司法的救濟有它一定的程序"},{"start":7784.251,"end":7806.391,"text":"對於檢察官的起訴我們後面有審計一審的判決之後有二審的審計救濟對於檢察官的不起訴處分我們可以申請在意都有相關的程序救濟即便案子已經判決確定了也有非常上述跟再審的救濟途徑今天為什麼跑出一個監察院可以就本案實體審理的部分加以去審酌"},{"start":7807.796,"end":7835.075,"text":"他說什麼東西沒有沒收這個根本就是檢察官他在偵查案件的職權有沒有沒收這個怎麼會是監察院可以審查的部分再來應該還起訴或不應該還起訴這也不是監察院的範圍阿我想我沒有講錯吧您是非常您也是法律您父親跟您都是憲法都非常清楚都是法律學者一定很了解我今天在講什麼"},{"start":7836.124,"end":7853.217,"text":"那我我是我當過警察官我還是要捍衛警察官的一些權利監察委員應該是就一些行政的事項上面去做審查比如說他的出勤的狀況他的一些辦案子的一些比如說他的"},{"start":7853.737,"end":7868.587,"text":"有罪率或什麼你們就這個部分去審查我覺得絕對服從大家都不會有意見但是實在不應該去就個案實體的部分去審查如果這樣的話那監察院不是變成最高法院以外的第4個審級嗎"},{"start":7870.851,"end":7886.282,"text":"我跟委員報告這個是委員這個獨立行使之前我不便發表任何評論但是今天委員關心的我會回去轉達給委員知道是我們就這部分我們是完全是就事論事再麻煩秘書長這可不可以在兩個禮拜內給我們一個調查的"},{"start":7893.147,"end":7894.748,"text":"這個部分我兩個禮拜以內提供給委員"},{"start":7920.281,"end":7929.525,"text":"謝謝吳叉緯、謝謝李秘書長主席在這裡先做宣告稍後在翁委員小林發言完畢後休息5分鐘接續請謝委員榮屆進行發言感謝主席這次都接待了"},{"start":7951.224,"end":7952.664,"text":"主席對你非常疼愛"},{"start":7978.644,"end":7995.092,"text":"主席說因為都是普遍憲法的機關：所以你今天是依官協議：那麼來這裡：還不屬於我們請總統來這裡：國情報告：還不可以蒙接：還不可以靠接：我相信你個人不會這樣支權情治法的規定主席跟整棟的棟林可以替你緩解"},{"start":8007.754,"end":8008.114,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":8026.829,"end":8038.693,"text":"所以還不適應啊 譬如說剛才布魂基委員在說 憲法簽署規定人民有流行及承受的自由 對不對這沒不對啊 沒不對嘛 要說這樣就是標示行政的危險喔"},{"start":8043.817,"end":8048.302,"text":"你今天是監察院秘書長你又變成立委員了你對不對 主席我現在這樣評論就是說"},{"start":8064.093,"end":8087.236,"text":"本議及行政委員會主席就是用這個角度．對你特別優待．結果本議的委員在評論行政委員時．你出來應援 這樣就不好了我個人的見解啦好 謝謝小委員的指教阿不然 譬如說 我提供你就是過去你做委員的時候你主張會讀監察院嘛"},{"start":8089.825,"end":8114.055,"text":"那麼在這樣的情形下 我請教你是不是政治人物你也算政治人物 政治人物就是一理貫直 要一四人分檢驗啊 你我都一樣啊所以今天你來到這個會議 我也很無奈 我也很不敢嘛大宰相擁啊 想要整棟的做這個安排 讓你這麼為難"},{"start":8116.752,"end":8120.456,"text":"我沒有這個感覺你過去要把監察院廢掉呢?你今天來這裡做秘書長 你在這裡坐這個位子這個薪水你都不會覺得抱歉抱歉 監察院這裡的董事說抱歉啊 以前我說要把你們廢掉 現在鄉鄉來做你們的董事"},{"start":8138.052,"end":8150.976,"text":"這在我們的臨時．﹑在我們還沒修正以前．﹑都要照會議規定來做．﹑那就是我今天來的目的．﹑你會覺得外景外景不會嗎．﹑都不會．﹑我剛剛依照憲法的職權來解釋．﹑沒有這樣我配合你．﹑因為呢．﹑你們看兩國都簽好了．﹑四月份的憲法徽讀施行．﹑會辯論．﹑"},{"start":8168.021,"end":8172.604,"text":"國家人權委員會被司法院指定為鑑定機關國家人權委員會有立場嗎?我們希望依照目標來達到廢死死刑的目標但是如何的做成這個由委員來討論這不是我可以決定"},{"start":8194.949,"end":8196.47,"text":"這個不是民進黨主張的民進黨的主張啦 沒錯啦"},{"start":8213.487,"end":8218.891,"text":"民進黨到現在怎麼主張我不知道 因為現在我不涉及黨派現在不涉及黨派阿現在民意寬大阿現在就沒什麼要說阿當然是客心阿阿如果這麼關心人權為什麼中國大陸嫁來的人要跟法律國家嫁來的人不一樣適用的條文不一樣對不對 適用的條文不一樣"},{"start":8243.727,"end":8246.971,"text":"你覺得整個委員的成分、組織有需要更加多元嗎?"},{"start":8255.968,"end":8264.415,"text":"現在已經很兜圓,還要再兜圓也可以啊現在已經很兜圓是啊,我們裡面有醫生、醫師、有立委,都有啊難怪你當時還說你不是聽不懂,你如果說我說國語可能你會聽不懂我講台語你應該聽得懂我聽得懂啊,所以我也回答你很清楚啊,現在現在"},{"start":8282.871,"end":8290.754,"text":"監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標"},{"start":8312.658,"end":8340.001,"text":"辦案這件事我和你討論這件事是沒有意思的,因為辦起來這位各位你調查不到一個案件委員的比率,但是不要說用案件調查來給你看我來說事實啦譬如說食品安全這個東西蘇丹鴻也好,包括很重要你過去已經有去查的喔你查查的結果你還在"},{"start":8341.739,"end":8354.725,"text":"領委說 監察這個 管理食品安全的機關是不是有失靈我坦白告訴你 這不用去查嘛這還可以查 看報紙也知道對不對 今年的12月11日那個食油署就已經要求 邊境對中國大陸進口的這個"},{"start":8366.021,"end":8372.587,"text":"一百%都要逐批審查,逐批逐批都要檢驗結果犯罪又一大堆進來,這牽連就是有問題嘛所以你現在說要再查這個我認為沒必要,比較重要的是在你來監察院以前,2002年七月"},{"start":8390.041,"end":8404.574,"text":"監察院用一段時間去調查所謂的食品雲食品雲呢,會缺失就對了你不知道我看過這個報告嗎?你覺得嗎?那你給我說明一下就是說你們當機時,調查就有很多角色"},{"start":8413.257,"end":8419.301,"text":"那麼經過這兩天來尤其現在還有問題發生食品安全的問題例如我跟你說這是很危險嘛你們過去就調查有這些問題啊結果這兩天來你們有去檢討整個食品營的預測包括它的預警包括它還有什麼不正確的地方你們去調查過了喔"},{"start":8436.934,"end":8437.414,"text":"我請教你,你的態度是怎麼樣?"},{"start":8464.81,"end":8467.394,"text":"你查了他有這麼一個缺失他有這麼一個缺失啊現在查了這麼一個大項的事情出來這樣你過去那一宗的調查就等於白費了嘛"},{"start":8476.064,"end":8484.211,"text":"所以我剛才有說明我們還在持續追蹤當中因為不是我們查了就算了我們就再追蹤我就是說你們沒有追蹤嘛今天如果繼續有追蹤有針對他的課程有跟他知情他就會三成有格好過有有格好過今天你這麼嚇唬就不太好當我請教你啦海關退運了後這個三品有可能沒有退運"},{"start":8504.915,"end":8509.476,"text":"我請教你你過去調查的案件有這樣嗎 這樣說快點不是啦 你過去調查的所有發掘食品發掘進口我沒有清澈你沒有清澈 那裡面有人清澈嗎請說明一下"},{"start":8531.278,"end":8531.919,"text":"好啦 秘書長 很好啦"},{"start":8561.121,"end":8566.685,"text":"好,謝謝謝委員：也謝謝李秘書長。接下來由翁委員小玲發言主席,有請秘書長好,有請李秘書長"},{"start":8586.639,"end":8612.825,"text":"秘書長好先前已經好幾個委員都有提到就是社會大眾現在在討論到底要不要廢除監察院的事情那麼是不是可以再請您再重申一下您的立場您作為監察院的秘書長您怎麼樣回應就是社會現在對於要廢除考監主要是廢除監察院的這個議題"},{"start":8614.505,"end":8637.822,"text":"備處考監這件事情監察院立場從頭到尾非常一致就是在憲法沒有修正之前我們依照憲法賦予的權責我們來執行至於修憲的部分是屬於立法院的權限不是監察院的權限好 那麼也就是說您認為在監察您擔任監察院秘書長這些年您認為監察院有扮演什麼樣的功能嗎他有發揮什麼樣的"},{"start":8638.882,"end":8640.163,"text":"您覺得您做這樣的事情有意義嗎?"},{"start":8666.354,"end":8686.959,"text":"是很重要的職責吧協助任何憲政機關發揮他的功能我認為都有意義這個也是我的工作監察院跟立法院在沒有修憲之前其實即便修憲之後其實他們都是代表像是西方民主國家的國會功能他們具有這樣子的國會功能他是憲政機關"},{"start":8690.066,"end":8709.589,"text":"立法院跟監察院應該是要互相合作相輔相成立法院他是在事前對於法律他執行他的立法權利然後制定規範那麼監察院很重要的是在多處或是去查核"},{"start":8710.289,"end":8716.453,"text":"行政機關有沒有遵守法律所以我個人認為監察院是非常重要的我也不認為監察院有被廢除的必要所以我也很期待監察院其實能夠站出來捍衛你們的職權"},{"start":8727.961,"end":8728.381,"text":"這個由立法院來討論"},{"start":8752.702,"end":8766.464,"text":"因為國家人權委員會組織法也是通過立法院的討論過好 那現在我看了你們這次所提出來的立法計畫你們希望在監察法裡面再多一個專章將國家人權委員會法制化"},{"start":8767.439,"end":8788.206,"text":"這個部分不是法制化的問題而是我們的職權行使我們必須要有一個職權行使的相關依據然後依照立法院過去的附帶決議希望我們用監察法的方式送進來立法院審查那我們在第10屆有這樣的動作但是第10屆沒有順利的通過沒有完成刪讀所以這一屆我們會再重新討論再送到立法院來"},{"start":8789.026,"end":8805.945,"text":"對於國家人權委員會他的組織是否與現在其他的既有的機關可能有跌床架屋是不是有存在國家人權委員會的必要及他的功能如何我相信未來立法院這邊會有很多的討論"},{"start":8809.769,"end":8822.134,"text":"維護人權不只是國家人權委員會．包含司法院．包含立法院．各個機關都在做．有沒有必要再去．設置一個軍委員會．以及建立他的職權實施法我可以跟您說明一下嗎這在2019討論國家人權委員會組織法的時候．就有充分的討論那最主要要成立獨立的所謂的人權機關．是因為我們有簽巴黎原則那就是這個公約兩公約的部分臺灣是一個簽署國"},{"start":8839.001,"end":8841.844,"text":"臺灣就應該照這樣來做所以有必要成立一個獨立的人權機關這就是設在監察院的理由"},{"start":8849.42,"end":8875.275,"text":"如果說是國家人權委員會是這麼重視人權他是一個獨立的機關他是獨立於行政獨立於司法各方面的這個其他的行政機關他發揮他的職權那請問為什麼大家普遍對於國家人權委員會並沒有好好的去捍衛去維護我們現在談的諸種的最近所發生的許多的人權問題就以"},{"start":8878.72,"end":8895.106,"text":"陸配涉及縮短年限的問題以及剛剛前面幾個委員有談到的進團令的問題其他都是涉及到人民的遷徙自由還有就是作為一個已經叫到臺灣來的陸配他在臺灣的居留的這個權利難道這個部分跟人權無關嗎國家人權委員會有站在超然的這個立場去"},{"start":8905.964,"end":8915.845,"text":"．"},{"start":8916.161,"end":8920.485,"text":"來我跟公務員報告這兩個概念第一個堅持各種階級各種種族貧富都一律平等這是國家人權委員會堅持的但是您剛剛提到的陸配跟外配我剛剛已經說明過了它的適用法律不同無法把它同列來比較因為一個適用的是兩岸人民關係條例一個是所謂的移民法這個都不一樣所以要不要放棄國籍就有差別"},{"start":8942.865,"end":8970.696,"text":"如果按照您的邏輯其實我們要國家人權委員會做什麼我們直接適用現在的法律行政機關執行就可以了就完全按照行政機關的意思做那麼我們要一個國家人權委員會有什麼意義不好意思我再來想要談的就是說國家人權委員會的定位如果他是一個超然獨立他必須要有更高的這個制高點去看待"},{"start":8971.476,"end":8972.116,"text":"現在接下來我要問另外一個問題"},{"start":8997.731,"end":9011.063,"text":"其實在這些年來大家對於就是監察院到底有沒有能夠善盡他就是發揮他的職權對於我們的行政機關進行嚴格的這個監督"},{"start":9015.629,"end":9038.352,"text":"其實大家這個社會上面都認為監察院好像看起來沒有有太多的作為剛剛羅志強委員其實也有提到我們監察院的近年來的這個所做的彈劾案等等其實這個線數是很低尤其是針對於部會首長的彈劾案似乎也只有六七件的樣子但是"},{"start":9039.393,"end":9059.861,"text":"從疫情以來到現在其實我們看到很多部會這個首長其實他們都做了一些錯誤的政策那機關的在很多執行的部分其實有些問題但是看起來監察院並沒有主動的積極的去了解就算是有也都是重新發落我們期待的是監察院他是一個"},{"start":9060.501,"end":9062.642,"text":"我跟您報告這監察院的重點是查公務員有沒有違法失職還包含行政機關有沒有違法有沒有違法他基本上是糾正"},{"start":9086.227,"end":9100.161,"text":"不只是公務員還包含行政機關所以說談判案之外還有糾正 糾正案也很少我剛才告訴你糾正案不少喔 糾正案有200多案喔 不少喔所以我剛才說明的很清楚 監察院依照憲法的規定我們行使我們的職權那至於滿不滿意 那是委員個人的評斷 這個我們沒有意見"},{"start":9106.627,"end":9132.107,"text":"我是代表背後眾多的民意所以你這個監察院來表示的意見另外還有就是你們這次談到你們的這個立法計畫是個人認為其實最應該立法就是將監察委員行為法具體的落實比照像是立法院立法委員行為法一樣你們現在只是弄一個什麼監察委員的自律規範我們沒有監察委員行為法"},{"start":9135.783,"end":9163.492,"text":"是所以我認為這是應該你們要積極提出的修法案當然就是說你們不提我也可以來提如果說是就監察院你們現在要提立法計畫那看一下陽光法案也不是你們的主責什麼的話我倒是建議你們回去可以好好思考一下是不是應該要將你們的立法委員的自律規範提升他的法律位階比照像是立法委員行為法一樣"},{"start":9165.413,"end":9192.826,"text":"這個讓他成為一個具體可行而且真的對於約束那些這個違法而且這個不適格的監察委員可以有更具體的約束我不知道不適格的監察委員怎麼樣定義那我們現在有監察委員自律規範我們有自律規範是就自律規範的法律未接不夠那麼他的懲處也不夠這是本席給你們的建議"},{"start":9194.09,"end":9195.991,"text":"謝謝李秘書長因為先前已經做過宣告現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":9527.264,"end":9530.029,"text":"好,現在繼續開會,請吳委員、施堯進行訊答。謝主席,有請李俊逸秘書長。"},{"start":9544.009,"end":9564.267,"text":"吳委員好早安大家辛苦了我真的是剛剛聆聽了前一位委員的質詢真是每天驚懼不斷驚嚇人的驚這個翁委員在上任到現在他除了拋出立法院有對於行政院行政官員的任免權"},{"start":9565.868,"end":9586.649,"text":"之外剛剛我又赫然聆聽了他的質詢他說他想要定定也要求監察院是不是來針對監察委員的事任與否要來定定監察委員行為法翁委員顯然把自己當作五院的糾察隊"},{"start":9588.069,"end":9612.636,"text":"他顯然真的把立法委員的權力無上限的擴大我想這樣一個超越憲法的發言也逾越了各個憲政機關的權力分立的原則秘書長你可不可以再說一下你是否同意一個立委可以針對監察委員定行違法其實我先說啦"},{"start":9614.377,"end":9622.326,"text":"應當請國民黨的委員好好去把立法委員行為法好好去思考如何精進立法委員的問政專業問政水平自己從自己問政的課則"},{"start":9626.963,"end":9651.552,"text":"就責對自己的強化提升素質開始來秘書長給您一點時間委員這個部分對任何立法委員的發言跟批評我們都沒有意見也沒有評論那我就我的職權範圍我來報告我今天是來做立法報告這是我們職權新司法71條的規定那我希望大家問的也集中在我們報告所提出來的立法計畫"},{"start":9652.832,"end":9671.982,"text":"至於其他相關的有關行政院的缺失或是什麼我只能告訴大家說這個案子我們有沒有在查其他部分我不便表示意見了解收到謝謝秘書長的說明我想我們非常成熟的公民社會的公民在聆聽直播的這些朋友們都非常能夠清楚的判斷"},{"start":9673.604,"end":9678.989,"text":"一個立法委員是否適合提出這樣逾越憲法的主張?"},{"start":9678.989,"end":9688.619,"text":"孰可忍,孰不可忍?我認為委員之間還是要有所自制跟自律喔那進入我今天的主題,我有兩個主題我很快速的跟您分享"},{"start":9689.279,"end":9702.616,"text":"一個就是我們如何在監察院的人權會的架構之下來推動全方位的人權主流化另外一個就是我個人在研議跟推動中的反歧視法或是平等法的立法這也畢竟跟人權事項相關"},{"start":9705.06,"end":9709.925,"text":"我們依據巴黎原則我們能夠成立一個獨立的人權機構而且他具備組織預算人事跟運作上的獨立那有明確的管轄權跟充分的權力更重要的是為人民所在"},{"start":9719.977,"end":9722.92,"text":"監察院2020年成立的人權會而行政院也在2022年提出台灣的第一本國家人權行動計畫這都是台灣的人權賣大步監察院的同仁人權會大家辛苦了下頁"},{"start":9738.857,"end":9762.587,"text":"那早上您回答了很多委員的槌尋 針對監察法的修正案確實當初立法院在審議我們的人權會組織法的時候做成了決議希望是以人權專章在監察法入法而不是採行一個作用法用一個職權行使法的方式那因為現在就是你們即將提出監察法人權專章的"},{"start":9764.749,"end":9771.134,"text":"關鍵時刻我提出分享我的觀點如何讓人權主流化能夠貫注在你未來提出來的法案"},{"start":9772.853,"end":9795.73,"text":"那我想台灣對於議題主流化是非常有經驗的從性別主流化到族群主流化到文化主流化我們從組織面都有對應的機構在法制面都有相關的法規乃至於政策面可以去落實一個不論誰執政都可以可長可久的相關的議題主流化我想這是一個對的思維"},{"start":9798.132,"end":9815.964,"text":"那所以我們在性別在族群還有本人投入很多的文化主流化裡頭我們成立了行政院的文化匯報我們讓部部都是文化部甚至我們也千辛萬苦來推出回應了文化界二三十年來的倡議成立了文化基本法"},{"start":9816.644,"end":9843.674,"text":"成為我們文化的憲法而本席目前也在進行推動青年主流化在各個部會的施政進一步的要推動青年基本法目前行政院也在研議當中那就是我個人拋出來的意見不代表這一定是可行的但我想就教於秘書長如果為了落實人權主流化因為我們現在同步在進行監察法的人權專章那如果是用一個人權基本法有一個憲法"},{"start":9844.674,"end":9848.298,"text":"高效率的基本法您認為可行嗎?這只是意見分享"},{"start":9859.531,"end":9860.532,"text":"好我了解謝謝秘書長的意見分享我要再澄清我不是我個人就"},{"start":9885.888,"end":9912.502,"text":"主張要有人權基本法我只是在拋出這樣一題我珍惜今天可以跟您對話的機會如何落實人權主流化那就非常期待未來我們提出來的人權專章如何能夠在院計之間在部會之間能夠真的做到這樣的進步人權的思維人權專章最重要是希望讓我們人權會的職權行使有一個依據那我們希望在這個會期想辦法把它送過來"},{"start":9913.543,"end":9918.663,"text":"我未來會來支持我們進一步再來探究那下一頁"},{"start":9920.227,"end":9948.518,"text":"人權政策到底誰是領頭羊這也是我對於人權會的組織我一直存有很大的疑惑人權會到底是上位機關它是整合的機構還是它本身也承擔了部分的執行其實人權會一年好像一億三左右的預算一億二左右那我們現在散列在院紀之間行政院的人權轉型正義處還有各部會都在做人權工作"},{"start":9949.758,"end":9971.176,"text":"總統府有原轉會：中研院也在做人權相關的學術研究：包括轉型正義研究本期一直在督促他們強化：國師館也在做人權的很多策展文件的這個研究那當然司法院跟考試院基於培育具有人權思維的：文官跟司法人員他也承擔了相當的責任"},{"start":9972.777,"end":9993.034,"text":"但依我們行政院的國家人權行動計畫裡頭 寫得很清楚國家人權委員會對行政部門所做成的人權事項 有相關建議報告意見你們做出來 就是監察院的人權委員會做出來的 各部會都要遵守落實所以 如果這樣解讀 你們是上位機關囉"},{"start":9994.834,"end":10016.568,"text":"依照現在人權委員會組織法的規定我們主要進行的部分是監督跟指導就是說如何讓他推動那實際的執行面應該是在行政院的人權處那至於這樣的設計到底合不合適這其實過去在國家人權委員會成立的時候就討論過因為最大的原則是要成立一個"},{"start":10017.048,"end":10020.371,"text":"所以這個部分我覺得還是要把組織定位再思考清楚一點至少我本席本人此時此刻站在這裡我雖然是司法法制委員會的新生但我一直對於這樣的定位本身職能的發揮到底能不能夠到位"},{"start":10045.209,"end":10071.04,"text":"我覺得還是可以思考沒有問題我們後續還有很長遠的機會可以來探究但無論如何監督的成效要出來確實在你們組織法裡頭不外乎是監督協助提建議等等這樣子的一個部分好那因為時間有限我其實最怕是要跟您講我長期在教育部門文化部門還有中研院的監督我過去在教文委員會我認為人權來下一頁下一頁"},{"start":10074.742,"end":10094.477,"text":"在下一頁這有國際經驗德國跟波蘭我就不說了下一頁其實就本席在促轉條例的修法裡頭我擴大了面向把過去的促轉基金能夠用在長照社福之外本席最focus的其實是要強化人權教育跟文化推廣"},{"start":10095.678,"end":10118.225,"text":"所以我下面沒有時間來跟您分享我認為我也提醒下一頁監察院對於文化部的不易移植立法文化遺產體驗教育的深化教育部門的人權教育向下扎根乃至於中研院的鼓勵轉型正義跟人權學術研究的監督跟協助要更"},{"start":10120.126,"end":10125.249,"text":"我目前看到的這相對是還沒有做到非常深入"},{"start":10149.645,"end":10157.15,"text":"我們需要一部反歧視法因為讓台灣在國際所簽訂的這麼多的人權條約國內法化台灣需要一部反歧視法也是落實聯合國SDGS的項目當中的減少不平等人與人之間的不平等要被消滅國與國之間的不平等更應當被打破"},{"start":10177.742,"end":10178.303,"text":"所以呢,下一頁"},{"start":10194.435,"end":10218.073,"text":"現在的反歧視法散列在7部法規﹖法律欠缺﹖法一致性﹖好下一頁所以我借盡了國際的經驗加拿大德國英國瑞典乃至於鄰近國家日本都有一個專法在進行反歧視法或者是稱之為平等法的一個單一專法而且它的位階是高的下一頁"},{"start":10218.894,"end":10220.175,"text":"現在內政部在研議一個以族群反歧視為主的平等法"},{"start":10236.83,"end":10259.796,"text":"內政部在做但法務部同時我那天也質詢了我們的這個法務部長法務部正在研議是一個專法來全方位來進行反歧視法而法務部的平等法的這個裡頭組織裡頭監督機關就是國家人權委員會所以我想就法學專業您雖然不是法律人但在我心目中李俊逸就是最棒的法律專家"},{"start":10261.776,"end":10282.302,"text":"對於行政院人權處對於法務部對於內政部同步在針對歧視相關的法規在進行研議的同時人權會的意見是如何跟吳委員報告現在我的理解是行政院有在推動這個反歧視法或稱為平等法的一個立法目前是族群"},{"start":10282.822,"end":10283.302,"text":"先秘書長先主席多給我時間謝謝"},{"start":10309.914,"end":10337.292,"text":"謝謝吳委員謝謝李秘書長接下來有請鄭委員天才發言時間5分鐘主席各位委員有請這個秘書長鄭委員好秘書長好這個反族群歧視法"},{"start":10338.376,"end":10354.89,"text":"本席在第9屆第10屆都提出來了但是不被接受了而我認為啊台灣的平等相關的法律兩性平等什麼都有了如果還要族群平等法"},{"start":10356.347,"end":10371.323,"text":"臺灣我認為族群基本上還有有平等只不過是要消滅這個族群的歧視反族群歧視法這個才是正辦這給你做參考因為你要寫報告提意見不是寫報告提意見好我們看這個"},{"start":10375.951,"end":10398.85,"text":"77年5月15號77年按照促進轉型正義條例的規定77年民國77年是威權統治時期威權統治時期退府會主任委員習立農這個同意這個韓府內政部的吳伯雄部長"},{"start":10399.875,"end":10422.566,"text":"同意將現未利用土地徹銷撥用歸還而且還承諾今後市安置狀況再有不惜公務利用之土地當繼續辦理徹銷撥用這是依法行政依什麼法呢第一個就是國軍退儲役官兵輔導條例這個條例規定很清楚"},{"start":10426.229,"end":10449.52,"text":"防衛輔導退儲役官兵．就業所稀之土地．得依法撥用好 我們退伍會沒有做就業使用然後去出租自稱為委託經營其實就是出租了收起利益違反第一個剛剛講退伍會的條例"},{"start":10452.861,"end":10470.556,"text":"第二違反國有財產法第39條因為非公用財產經過撥用有下列情形之一就應該撤銷撥用第一個用途廢紙他廢紙他沒有做就業使用"},{"start":10471.961,"end":10498.695,"text":"編根原定用途他去做出租出租給民間企業對不對編根原定用途第三個上工收益還收了租金出租給民間企業收租金違反了三個條款在這樣一個情形之下這個我也請財政部財政部也發文了"},{"start":10500.15,"end":10525.378,"text":"他不理不睬照理財政部應該主動啊因為按照國有財政法他應該主動啊然後他這邊寫說為了安置基金安置基金哪是用這個呢他本來就有另外一個安置基金的一個用途啊管理辦法多有啊他才不是從這裡根本就是答非所問所以退府會"},{"start":10529.69,"end":10537.076,"text":"現收在原住民族一直都在使用的土地"},{"start":10541.522,"end":10568.708,"text":"但是被撥為這個退會之用那事實上他們因為早期有在做就業之用後來就沒有所以原住民又回來繼續做像這樣的土地我們只不過是希望依法行政但是到現在毫無結果違反了三個法律第一個違反原住民主基本法因為政府承認原住民主土地的權利"},{"start":10569.956,"end":10597.423,"text":"違反退會條例違反國有財源法如果按照剛才這個這個洗禮農主委啊退會洗禮農主委今後今後是安置狀況若再有不惜公務利用之土地定當繼續辦理撤交不用就原住民族而言啊"},{"start":10598.744,"end":10625.746,"text":"這對我們的承諾對原住民的承諾明法明法所以也違反明法所以在這樣的情形之下這個本席也曾經我再講一次萬一前統治時期洗利農都可以依法廢紙撥用現今民主憲政的時期千萬不能做到"},{"start":10627.125,"end":10634.227,"text":"我跟委員報告這個案件已經在去年的9月26號有幾位委員立案調查現在在調查中那麼久那很容易啊"},{"start":10657.557,"end":10659.278,"text":"這個部份正在調查中,我不辯表示意見"},{"start":10684.206,"end":10685.329,"text":"我可以轉達說這個已經太久了"},{"start":10690.962,"end":10692.083,"text":"接下來有請楊委員 瓊英發言"},{"start":10720.52,"end":10723.164,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊發言想邀請秘書長邀請李秘書長"},{"start":10730.854,"end":10751.551,"text":"秘書長你應該是很有power所以當然秘書長可能可以領軍有一些作為所以本席要跟你討論目前最夯的蘇丹紅辣椒原料的食安問題那本席看到在監察院的新聞稿裡頭也提出了已有監察委員申請自動調查"},{"start":10755.113,"end":10776.391,"text":"施安辦在上個禮拜五行政院記者會也表示蘇丹紅跟咖啡跟茶的致癌風險是同等級呼籲民眾不要太緊張這個說法讓外界讓民眾等於是炸鍋蘇丹紅所造成的施安風暴到底"},{"start":10777.071,"end":10801.016,"text":"有什麼可以讓民眾吃得安心民眾現在非常的焦慮所以請教秘書長目前對於主管機關對食品業者的監督控管機制是不是真的失靈了民眾尤其我們這些媽媽說我到哪裡吃我都不放心我真的是摻了一個這個辣椒我都會緊張在這樣的情況之下"},{"start":10803.776,"end":10829.798,"text":"報告如果出來對這個國安的國人的這個食品安全呢他消費環境他當然會有很重大的一個影響所以本期要請教監察院你的後續作為到底是什麼呢因為這已經嚴重的影響到整個民眾新聞媒體每一天都在報而且連環報甚至地點甚至這個整個都有脈動"},{"start":10831.019,"end":10831.98,"text":"蘇丹紅的案子目前已經立案調查"},{"start":10847.392,"end":10863.145,"text":"那至於說前面的有關食安的部分我剛才已經說明過了其實有關食安的部分我們查過食品評查過食品安全匯報查過食安五環這些都有相關的規定跟報告的結論那報告的結論都請行政院在積極改善當中"},{"start":10864.226,"end":10864.606,"text":"他們多久會提來?"},{"start":10890.183,"end":10904.213,"text":"因為現在所有的民眾都還是很疑慮你知道那他們多久會提來他如果不提呢你有什麼作為呢這個要看委員的調查的內容這些都會列為委員的調查內容之中"},{"start":10905.885,"end":10906.185,"text":"這件事2024年"},{"start":10922.15,"end":10924.931,"text":"委員會決議的要調查的110案件你院派調查是12件在這樣情況之下如果扣除政府院長扣除政府院長那其餘我們還有27位的監委"},{"start":10951.317,"end":10977.156,"text":"那一個人這些案件那是調查不到一案那監察院提出的彈劾、糾舉、糾正案的這個基礎這是必要的也授予這個權責但是我們看到秘書長像如果剛剛已經引起民眾﹐廣泛性的疑慮這麼久到現在那麼我們只有"},{"start":10978.697,"end":11000.499,"text":"請行政院來改善之那也不知有沒有約束什麼時候他要提回來我們的後續究竟要怎麼樣去督導所以有人質疑喔那我們要這麼多監委幹什麼呢是不是跟考試院一樣必須要減少人數當然本席也不希望因為數量"},{"start":11008.408,"end":11016.557,"text":"監察院是人民最高的一個監督單位應該是有牙齒的老虎而不是只有改善之"},{"start":11018.038,"end":11034.769,"text":"這樣對人民是不公平的,是不公平的,所以本席要請教,你要怎麼樣去提升這些的績效?是,我跟央委員報告,我剛剛已經說明很清楚了,我們不能以案件數來看那如果要用案件數來看,其實我們有彈劾、糾舉、糾正跟調查報告,還有含情各機關改善"},{"start":11038.251,"end":11066.949,"text":"函請各機關改善之後我們甚至可以用質問就是回來再報告他的相關的情形然後看質問滿不滿意不滿意的話我們還可以進行後續的動作那這個是第一個部分第二個部分剛剛提到監察委員人數的減少監察委員的人數是寫在憲法裡面考試院是寫在考試院組織法裡面所以他的層次不同過去修考試院組織法是用考試院組織法來修所以人數可以下降監察院恐怕要修憲"},{"start":11068.13,"end":11090.389,"text":"怎麼這個方式 林氏秘書長外界有這個質疑表示他認為成效是不彰的是有所疑慮的 所以我們要提出來至於哪一種方式 總是有方法只是我們人民所需要的是真正能夠監督就誠如你剛才說的我們監察院到目前為止 扮演這個角色超過90年"},{"start":11091.73,"end":11111.583,"text":"但是有人質疑是沒有牙齒的老虎你剛才說的我們即使通過彈劾案那你要發動的制裁的權限你到最後你到最後是沒有懲戒權那同時要不要制裁制裁的內容到底是如何監察院你可以決定嗎那接下來我們還要問"},{"start":11113.184,"end":11142.391,"text":"即使對行政部門機關所通過的糾正案那你能夠請他們要注意要改善所以本席希望的是說當你們依照目前的權限在做似乎人民認為是不足的不足的有兩個方式也就是你們的權力不夠第二個最重要在整個過程當中你可以怎樣去調整你的這個角度這是本席今天跟你討論我們必須要了解的"},{"start":11143.652,"end":11153.404,"text":"謝謝楊委員我很快跟楊委員說明一下懲戒權的權利是在司法院的懲戒法院不在監察院當然所以本席告訴你你這個也沒有那個沒有難怪人家說你是沒有牙齒"},{"start":11157.91,"end":11158.711,"text":"所以在整個流程本席也要求你們去討論"},{"start":11178.368,"end":11206.677,"text":"因為人民對於你們的授權呢因為在人民所需要一個結論人民所需要的是能夠有效能那整個效能產生不出的時候在整個制度結構裡頭也必須去討論才能夠真正得到民眾所需我本身也不希望讓人家說監察院是一個沒有牙齒的老虎那人民有疑慮"},{"start":11207.95,"end":11236.616,"text":"我們國家任何一個機關當然要好好的去檢討讓我們的民眾能夠沒有疑慮安定生活嘛對不對好謝謝楊委員的結論好謝謝李秘書長好那接下來呢有請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭委員不在有請徐欣盈委員徐欣盈徐欣盈委員不在有請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在有請高金樹梅委員高金樹梅高金樹梅委員不在有請蔡宇委員蔡宇蔡宇委員不在"},{"start":11237.236,"end":11253.809,"text":"好 那麼所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員質詢時 要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者 請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會好 那本次會議到此結束 現在散會 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"15713","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15713","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2da7f870fb2fb2a5c39b5fa2f296a935343be8d109af184be4b4de26c548ded4745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-11","start_time":"2024-03-11T08:29:59+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-4"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:52:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":12121,"委員發言時間":"08:29:59 - 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性﹐同時也來整合有盟的威懾能量﹐避免區域安全的現狀遭到了挑戰或是破壞。"},{"start":2599.726,"end":2617.537,"text":"美國有台制中的政策不變目前美國兩黨都把中共視為是主要的戰略競爭對手同時也支持深化台美的合作關係那應對中共對於印太地區的一個挑戰所以不論是哪一位當選美國總統未來的有台制中的政策應不至於出現大幅的變動"},{"start":2619.199,"end":2629.748,"text":"中共專善擴權迫害區域的核穩中共近年來不斷的運用軍事還有揮帶的手段在第一島鏈的周邊強勢的維權並且積極的對外來擴張戰訓的場域意圖來改變印太地區的安全現狀增添了我們區域裡面地緣戰略的風險"},{"start":2638.055,"end":2663.338,"text":"第四中共會持續的來強化對台壓拉兩手的作為目前中共除了鞏固國際一中的格局也持續的藉由軟硬兩手的策略來對台灣進行壓拉的一個操作一方面透過軍事的威懾、外交的打壓、經濟的脅迫以及增加各種的法律作為來炒作兩岸管轄權的爭議意圖來改變台海的現狀另一方面也試機來操作統戰分化"},{"start":2663.979,"end":2678.28,"text":"行訴對中共有利的一個兩岸的局勢第三部分結語那中共為了要加強掌握兩岸的局勢主導權會持續的來突出對台政策的立場的底線同時也會結合各種的政、經、軍、徽帶"},{"start":2679.582,"end":2681.223,"text":"並且持續對於本局的工作能夠給予大力的支持。謝謝"},{"start":2707.383,"end":2723.628,"text":"我們現在開始詢答本會委員10加2分鐘﹖非本會委員8分鐘10點30分發言登記截止﹖如果有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理﹖現在請沈博洋委員上台質詢"},{"start":2735.606,"end":2739.549,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請這個局長 謝謝請局長好 謝謝主席 社會委員早非常早 那這個 這個感謝這個主席安排這一個題目 這個題目其實非常的困難那這個 今天我最主要的 因為在這個報告書裡面有特別提到除了這一個美國選舉之外 有包含中國的這個反間諜法"},{"start":2764.148,"end":2786.93,"text":"所以我今天可能比較多會圍繞在這一個我們對於反間諜法這方面的因應來討論那一開始我想說先從這個中國的一個侵台的手段開始就是說我們現在面臨的就是說過往的文獻大致上都喜歡提這三點第一個當然就是我們現在面臨的這些攻擊擾台等等軍事上的措施然後也包含這些所謂統戰措施這個局長一定特別的熟悉"},{"start":2788.031,"end":2810.08,"text":"立議獲取等等之類的這些或者說用經濟的方式對台灣來做出脅迫那最後一個呢當然就是我們更熟悉的這個所謂認知作戰的操作那第一個呢我就想問就是說在我們過往的這一個研究當中就會發現尤其是後面兩個就是統戰跟這個輿論操作這兩個在疫情的時候因為統戰變得比較少尤其在2023之前"},{"start":2811.36,"end":2833.42,"text":"那那個時候中國的輿論操作是變得比較多的所以就是說後兩者有一個比較此消彼長的一個關係那我想問這個局裡面就是說因為我們等一下會討論這一個美國大選那在這一個整體的情勢之下我們再看中國的手段中間因為它畢竟是一個整體的預算那這三者之間對局長來講有沒有一個比較此消彼長的一個關係"},{"start":2834.893,"end":2855.548,"text":"對,事實上中共對台灣的一個複合式威脅的一個手法它是多管齊下來對台灣進行各種的施壓那這部分的一個操作包括到有所謂的政治的滲透也是我目前在關切的重點另外還有包括經濟的脅迫、軍事的恫嚇、治安的攻擊以及政治作戰的操作所以中國在這方面的資源分配它會透過政府各個部員來投資相關的資源"},{"start":2857.469,"end":2876.081,"text":"那相關的一個支援的益助應該委員也有注意到在今年兩會他們還有特別投入到一兆的特別預算那我們也在注意這一兆的特別預算除了有放在所謂中國要特別發展的薪資的這種生產力以外有沒有移到國安部門的操作那這也是我們後續要觀察的重點"},{"start":2876.786,"end":2895.537,"text":"好 謝謝局長那這一個就是因為這次主席安排的這個題目最主要是跟美國跟中國有關所以那我們就一直在想說就是如果我們今天要去看對我們國內的影響到底美國的影響會是在這三個的哪一個那其中第一個我們能夠看到的就是像這樣的一個圖這是這個共濟老台的這個數量"},{"start":2897.498,"end":2916.334,"text":"我們看到這個數量其實有高有低那這個有高有低到底是跟我們國內的比較有關係還是跟國際的有關係如果我們把其他的這些事件把它重疊之後會發現這跟歐洲的議員、美國的議員訪台其實都有高度相關我們之前的計算大概是一個議員大概就是值大概十架飛機左右"},{"start":2917.575,"end":2938.619,"text":"所以就是說美國的所作所為他的行為呢很明顯的會影響到就是我們剛剛前面這一頁提到的最左邊這一個軍事那現在大選來到呢因為各候選人呢有可能會對這一個台灣的議題或者中國的議題來發言那這一個發言呢會影響到軍事以外呢局長的判斷對於候兩者的影響大概有多大"},{"start":2939.198,"end":2953.131,"text":"對我想中共對台灣的各種的軍事施壓的動作他現在有個趨勢就是慢慢朝向常態化的發展那特別剛剛委員提到了所謂的聯合戰備警巡那現在大概聯合戰備警巡的頻次"},{"start":2954.212,"end":2972.344,"text":"平均大概7天到10天就會有一次聯合戰備警訊那這種所謂聯合戰備警訊的數量也像剛剛委員有指出來大概都有10架中共的戰機、戰轟機或是特種機會到台海周邊的空域來活動同時搭配有3到4艘的共艦會到周邊有相關的一個活動"},{"start":2972.964,"end":2999.809,"text":"這是一種常態化的一個趨勢當然這也涉及到台灣跟外國往來的一些頻密的層次有關係所以每每我們可以發現到當有我的國家的國會通過了友台的議案或是剛好有外艦巡弋台海周邊的水域或是有剛好有外國的政要帶台灣來訪問中國也會搭配到他現有這種常態化的戰備警訊配合到這些外交事件來做一些操作"},{"start":3000.529,"end":3017.62,"text":"這個操作重點可能除了有武力的一個恫嚇以外也會配合到認知作戰還有正義訊息的散佈那主要目的就是希望台灣的輿論在看待相關中共的武力恫嚇過程當中能夠讓台灣社會有不同的分化的一個意見那達到他認知作戰的一個效果"},{"start":3018.5,"end":3040.123,"text":"謝謝局長的這個分析那剛剛有提到這一個一兆的這個預算那這個預算的本身的分配當然最主要可能跟後兩者比較有關係它不是純軍事的但是因為對中國來講因為統戰畢竟是比較花錢的事情那操作輿論或者說其他的一些手段對他來講是低成本所以尤其是在這次的金門海域的事件我們可以看到他們不斷地想要去擴張他們的執法權"},{"start":3041.704,"end":3058.786,"text":"所以我在這邊稍微整理了一下就是從2014因為報告裡面有提到反間諜法那14開始有反間諜法23又再做一次修正那中間有這個國家安全法這個網路安全、密碼、數據安全我就不一一說了那兩會的時候其實他們又有提到這一個跟反間諜法的一些相關的發言"},{"start":3059.907,"end":3074.917,"text":"所以說其實通過法律對他們來講並不是一個高成本的事情那這個是法律本身那以執法來講呢我們遇到了這個李明哲的事件這個在微信上面寫的這個中國要如何民主就被抓了還有這個海外設置這個秘密警察局一直到我們現在金門"},{"start":3075.797,"end":3098.18,"text":"所以這些一些執法權的一些擴張對他們來講算是一個比較低成本的行動也因此我就一直在想說我們對於這整體的一個分析的這一個情勢來講我們剛剛提到的是後兩者就是統戰跟資訊操作看起來好像會有一些預算上的擠壓的這個關係比如說這個統戰的預算稍微少一點的時候輿論的操作有時候看起來會更多"},{"start":3098.78,"end":3113.908,"text":"那我們現在看到的反而是前面兩個互相的關係就是在軍事層面他會去搭配這個管轄權的擴張不管是他們上初日號做這個登檢又或者說他們現在不承認我們的中線不承認這個禁止跟限制的海域"},{"start":3114.708,"end":3128.97,"text":"所以我就一直在想說如果說前兩者這個有一點這個預算上的關係後兩者也有預算上的關係的話那我們現在對於這一個司法權的擴張他我們的應對的措施跟方案會是什麼以局裡面的角度來講"},{"start":3129.724,"end":3150.508,"text":"好我想委員很正確的指出來就我們在觀察中共的國安的法制這幾年確實有非常嚴密的部件那除了剛剛委員在螢幕上所顯示的這些新的國安法制以外在這次的兩會過程當中可以特別要注意到的他們有可能會在今年5月1號開始實施所謂的保守國家秘密法的新的修正的版本"},{"start":3150.908,"end":3179.707,"text":"那一般我們在觀察中共的相關國安法制在通過之後我們還會看他細部的執行的狀況因為一般在中央通過了相關的國安法制之後地方政府還會再提出他們的施行作業的要點跟細則那所以我們都會去觀察到在中央政府的法令頒布之後各個地方對於兩岸的交流有沒有一些所謂的這種司法管轄或是留置詢問相關的一個做法那當然也有特別注意到有幾個城市這一方面似乎做得特別積極"},{"start":3180.447,"end":3201.516,"text":"所以這個部分我們會繼續的來注意中共在法律戰的一個操作那這個部分我們想也利用這個機會就官局的角度來講怎麼樣來適度來揭露相關中共的做法以及提醒國人到對岸不管是經商、求學、活動、旅遊、過程的風險性我想這一方面的事件我們必須要不斷的來提醒民眾"},{"start":3202.366,"end":3218.844,"text":"那感謝局長因為剛剛局長提到一個非常重要的點就是交流活動這件事因為交流活動在這個圖裡面最主要就是右邊第二個這個統戰的部分那本來對我們來講司法權的一些擴張執法的擴張管轄權的擴張看起來比較像是他們剛剛制定的這些法律或者說他在"},{"start":3219.244,"end":3241.61,"text":"海上面目前是在金門附近的執法所達成的一個效果但其實中間這兩個司法權跟統戰其實有很高度的疊合因為以局長的經驗來講可能應該知道目前來講會依照這一些法律被逮捕的人有時候反而都是在統戰網絡裡面的人也就是說因為對中國來講他們有需要很多的KPI那在逮捕這些人的時候呢他"},{"start":3242.11,"end":3243.552,"text":"中原越社會所畫的統戰脈絡已經深得非常深"},{"start":3259.99,"end":3271.184,"text":"我現在比較有疑慮的事情就是其實國人對於附中可能會有一定的風險是可能會有認知的他不一定知道自己在統戰的脈絡裡面因為統戰的脈絡本身並不是一個不公開的資訊像以這個圖來講他只是根據了目前現有的官媒因為官媒會做KPI"},{"start":3279.654,"end":3299.032,"text":"所以台灣的有哪些組織或個人跟中國有所接觸的話呢他就可以形成這樣的一個網絡圖那我們也知道其實微信公眾號裡面也有非常多這樣的一個KPI所以不知道以局長的這個我們目前的工作來講有沒有機會呢去擴張這樣的一個圖像然後讓國人知道說到底是不是處於危險當中"},{"start":3300.183,"end":3325.153,"text":"目前國人道對岸有遭受到關押、拘禁來審判的大概有11個案子那另外在通過海關遭到留置詢問的大概有29個案子那我們也像委員所提到的針對這些個案遭到偵訊或關押台灣民眾的背景到底有哪些的組成也做一些分析那主要大概包括的有相關的這種民間的社團"},{"start":3325.913,"end":3326.013,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3347.193,"end":3350.596,"text":"對,那局長剛剛提到的比較就是個案就是說他已經因為被留置或者說可能被審訊等等這些的狀況那我們剛剛在想的事情比較像是說把有風險的個體跟團體都先盤點出來"},{"start":3369.634,"end":3388.931,"text":"因為先盤點出來先給予警告可能會是一個更好的做法因為像以這次的這個比如說禁團令來講好了很多的業者對於跟中國這個交涉的一個風險他可能有認知但他可能對於中國的剛剛講的這些各式各樣的法律是沒有什麼認知的也就是說風險可能比他想像中的還要更大但他卻不知"},{"start":3389.932,"end":3404.772,"text":"再加上我們台灣會有各式各樣的反制手段那這個反制手段也會影響到國人所以這個國人對這件事情風險的認知也很希望就是由國安單位能夠提供不管是給陸委會或經濟部讓國人能夠知道這樣的一個風險好 這我們來努力 謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":3405.713,"end":3435.033,"text":"所以這個就是關於剛剛提到的比如說這個學術交流可能就會被抓拍攝港口的畫面也會被逮捕中國大陸這個外國機構的密切交往也會被逮捕所以這方面的就是剛剛所說的希望能夠提出這樣的一個比較像類型化的一個方式讓國人知道但是反過來講我覺得一個比較有危險的地方就是在於說我們現在對於這一個中配入籍可能也是有一些爭議那非常重要的事情就是在沒有放棄中國籍之前"},{"start":3435.553,"end":3446.393,"text":"反過來講他們也能夠在這邊必須符合他們的法律框架的情報法在台灣來收集情報跟資訊所以就這一點不知道局長有沒有什麼需要跟國人說明的地方"},{"start":3446.701,"end":3470.584,"text":"我想中配陸配入籍的一個年限的討論我們尊重各界的一個意見那它主要在政策面向涉及到的有我們的兩岸政策跟相關的移民政策那這歸陸委會還有我們內政部的夜館那相關的討論我們都非常尊重那就國安局的角度來講我們比較重視的倒不是它的年限的調整而是中共有沒有可能透過特定的陸配或陸配團體"},{"start":3471.505,"end":3471.685,"text":"謝謝局長,謝謝主席,謝謝"},{"start":3500.864,"end":3502.044,"text":"羅美玲議員發言羅美玲議員"},{"start":3522.746,"end":3532.056,"text":"局長早很謝謝局長今天早上對今天的主題做了非常詳細的分析其實現在只要有什麼風吹草動其實國人都是憂心忡忡的常常會擔心說台海什麼時候會發生戰爭這是在我們基層常常聽到的一個問題"},{"start":3544.127,"end":3573.027,"text":"從今年的大選期間我們看到的這個認知作戰還有軍機擾台一直到上個月所發生的這個中國越界船翻覆的事件其實都讓國人會覺得說會不會兩岸的衝突是就是會發生那再加上在這個本屆的兩會當中中國國務院總理李強他在3月5號的時候在全國人民大會發表的這個政府工作報告他有提到"},{"start":3573.887,"end":3600.451,"text":"推進祖國統一少了和平這兩個字其實也引起了很多的揣測覺得非常的不尋常那當然後來習近平在六日的時候在兩會的演說有再次提到和平統一那昨天政協主席在閉幕式也提到和平統一這四個字所以局長你剛剛在報告的時候有提到"},{"start":3600.831,"end":3615.256,"text":"融合發展依然還是中共對台的一個工作的這個重點那換句話說 局長你也認為中共暫時沒有武力犯台的這個動作是不是"},{"start":3615.976,"end":3645.206,"text":"我們最近在觀察兩會期間包括兩會之前的中共的對台工作會議以及兩會期間包括習近平接見各個專業團體的代表王滬寧的談話以及李強的工作報告我們可以發現到他基本的政策主軸還是圍繞在和平統一所延續出來的反獨、觸統、觸容跟反對外力介入跟干涉這是他的主調那但是在所謂的和平統一的路線之上那他對台灣的脅迫性有稍微在加強他的力度所以我們個人把它稱為是一種"},{"start":3645.646,"end":3646.026,"text":"所以他以後會加重這個?"},{"start":3664.872,"end":3688.764,"text":"但他就是要讓台灣社會有一些對於武統的想像、空間或是恐懼來達到他一個武力恫嚇的目的所以基本上還是合同的路線只是有一個脅迫性在透過複合式威脅來達到脅迫性的一個合同路線的一個推展那在另外一方面他們也提出所謂的兩岸促統促容的相關的方案這包括福建有提出了21條的對台的措施在"},{"start":3689.744,"end":3706.199,"text":"全國兩會之前的福建的兩會他們過去的對台工作要點大概排在第6位第6順位但今年提升到第3順位也就是說在中央的大交流跟促統促融的工作指導之下福建也不斷的希望能夠推動兩岸的促統促融"},{"start":3706.539,"end":3731.926,"text":"那把兩岸特別是今夏之間的一個合作當成是一個兩岸融合的示範區所以我現在在跟委員報告的是中共對台政策主要都還是所謂的軟硬的兩手壓拉的兩手策略來對我們施壓那我們預判在520的前後這樣子的一個壓拉的兩手策略會持續的來進行對台灣來施壓那也來影響新政府未來兩岸政策的一個走向"},{"start":3732.626,"end":3750.246,"text":"所以就算是給壓拉的這個方式基本上這個武力犯台的機率最近如果是近期來講是比較不可能發生的是嗎因為我有看到有一份報導就是中共的這個前情報員姚誠他有提到中國火箭軍的這個洩密案"},{"start":3752.268,"end":3777.178,"text":"他就提到說這個泄密案會影響中共攻台的這個計畫會把這個很有可能之前他們所設定的這個攻台的這個時間表呢往後延所以對於這個說法所以局長您認為呢會不會也是因為這個火箭軍事件所以造成對中國目前來講是沒有能力來渡海犯台這是姚誠的說法局長您覺得呢"},{"start":3777.718,"end":3806.958,"text":"我想台海安全情勢的因素有非常非常的多而這些綜合因素交雜之下才會產生各種不同的劇本的情境那我們當然要針對不同因素所產生的不同劇本情境來做好相關的預應的方案跟措施就國安局的立場來講我們跟國防部還有相關的國安單位對於中共的軍事動態我們都有嚴密的掌控那也有相關的預應的措施那我們透過各種的情監偵的手段來了解到"},{"start":3807.358,"end":3834.337,"text":"中共目前軍事活動的最新的狀況同時也會跟國際的友盟針對中共現階段到底有沒有新興的意圖還有相關的活動那來做相關的情報的交流目前我們沒有看到臺海戰事一觸即發的相關的情資那當然我們會持續的關注有任何的偽異常現象的話我們都會做妥善的處理來避免情勢升高那維持臺海的穩定這部分可以請國務院放心請委員放心"},{"start":3835.638,"end":3852.207,"text":"這部分很感謝局長的這個說明可是國人也很擔心的就是說習近平一直想要建立奠定自己的歷史地位我們從2021年的11月中共在第19屆六中全會有通過所謂的第三個歷史"},{"start":3853.847,"end":3876.399,"text":"第一個歷史決議就是在毛澤東時期1945年的時候通過的那第二個歷史決議是在1981年鄧小平時代通過的那當然第三個歷史決議就是去2021年習近平所通過的所謂的第三個歷史決議我在想這個動作其實也是奠定"},{"start":3877.119,"end":3898.745,"text":"他的歷史定位的其中一個因為在所有的國家的領導人裡面也就是毛澤東、鄧小平跟習近平有提出了所謂的這個歷史決議那當然他的歷史決議跟鄧小平他的這個所決定的內容其實有很大的這個分歧比如說鄧小平他那時候就覺得說應該是要訂定一個比如說這個"},{"start":3904.487,"end":3924.256,"text":"所謂的這個領導人他應該要有這個這個任期這個限制可是習近平他打破了那這個推翻這個個人的崇拜當然針對可能是毛澤東而來那可是習近平在這第三個歷史決議裡面又重建了自己所謂的個人的這個崇拜所以這種種都看出習近平"},{"start":3924.736,"end":3925.817,"text":"這部分的話 局長是不是也可以讓有一個讓國人比較安心的這個說法"},{"start":3948.115,"end":3970.055,"text":"對我想習近平他畢竟是一個建立了一個強人政治的一個領導的風格那對於強人政治來講對於他自己的歷史定位他都會有相關的一個論述我們都必須要嚴密來注意他除了論述以外後續的實際的一個行動那比較要特別注意到的是2027年習近平要達成他們中國解放軍建軍百年的總目標"},{"start":3970.695,"end":3992.746,"text":"所以也造成這幾年他們在軍事上投注的資源非常的龐大事實上討論這個問題可能不能單單只是放在兩岸或台海的框架來講因為中國有他本身的大戰略希望能夠變成是一個區域甚至是全球性的強權他有他的各個階段不同的目標也正因為如此造成台海局勢以外不管是在東海、在南海或是在西太平洋"},{"start":3993.126,"end":4018.141,"text":"各個國家都看到了中國武力的擴張那這也是我剛剛在口頭的書面報告有提到的國際的友盟對於這一塊的發展的動態非常的關注那也注意到台灣就站在中共武力擴張的第一線那願意跟台灣在各方面發展安全或情報上的交流所以我們在面對中共武力擴張的同時雖然承受不少的壓力但同時也開放了不少的機會可以加強跟國際友盟的合作"},{"start":4019.254,"end":4042.304,"text":"接下來下一題就是有關於川普跟拜登毫無懸念可能在今年的美國大選應該就是拜登跟川普的對壘川普跟拜登這兩個人其實對在國際或國內他們的政策其實是有很大的不一樣"},{"start":4043.505,"end":4051.411,"text":"拜登在國情諮詢中提到堅決維護台海和平的穩定我們剛剛局長你有提到就是兩個候選人其實他們在對外政策其實存在的差異性是還蠻大的像拜登他強調的是多邊主義可是他也力挺烏克蘭然後川普他主張的是單邊主義最主要還是優先關注國內的議題"},{"start":4070.848,"end":4085.431,"text":"那像之前這個烏俄戰爭發生的時候呢其實國人也是很關注美國對烏克蘭的這個態度那局長我們這邊有沒有會不會覺得擔心說如果川普上任的話"},{"start":4087.193,"end":4102.902,"text":"他可能對烏克蘭的這個軍援的態度就改變了那進而影響的會不會說如果以後如果說台海發生戰爭的時候然後川普這邊對台灣的援助是不是會像烏克蘭這樣子的消極可能會發生這種事情嗎"},{"start":4103.769,"end":4131.163,"text":"對我想就中華民國政府官員的立場來講我實在不便去對於美國的內政或選舉做太多的評論但是站在情報的角度我們可以針對各種的公情還有分析彙整一下來跟委員做個報告跟說明那就兩個總統的基本的外交路線確實有看到剛剛委員所指出來的一個差異性但是他們也有他們的趨同性特別是在社中的議題上對於中國的戰略的挑戰他們都高度的關注那另外也都對於台海的"},{"start":4131.943,"end":4157.619,"text":"安全的承諾也都做出非常清楚的宣誓我們可以比較一下在川普總統的任內他跟拜登總統的任內對台灣的軍售案大概都各自宣布的有10個以上的軍售案來表示他們對於台海安全的關注那當然可能兩位對於烏克蘭的問題有不同的立場不過這部分美國國會還是有一些辯論包括要不要再增加相關的增援的法案有一些辯論"},{"start":4160.28,"end":4178.975,"text":"美國行政部門和國會對於相關問題的討論的一個狀況才能夠下最後的一個定論他們有沒有一個比較新的政策路線出來所以局長的意思是說就算是川普他勝出其實我們也不需要多大的擔心畢竟他曾經也擔任過美國的總統那在那幾年我們也看出說其實他對台灣"},{"start":4184.859,"end":4209.085,"text":"其實台海這個安全其實還是非常重視的所以在這個軍購方面其實也不用那麼擔心是不是?是這樣子的意思嗎?各位委員說明一下這就如同我們剛剛在專題報告當中有提到了就美國不管是哪一位來勝選擔任美國的總統那基本上他們這種友台至終的路線應該不至於出現太大的改變這大概是我們現階段分析判斷的主要的重點各位委員參考好謝謝,謝謝局長以上謝謝"},{"start":4218.24,"end":4219.882,"text":"接下來請許巧欣委員質詢。"},{"start":4239.502,"end":4264.041,"text":"好 謝謝主席 許委員好局長好我印象中呢2024年的選舉有傳出不少的影片跟錄音檔那當時大家都不斷的在問說到底呢是de-fake身為還是呢他被駭客入侵了那我今天呢就想要請問就關於後續的調查結果我們所掌握的有相關於國安的情報部分是怎麼樣的"},{"start":4264.921,"end":4284.733,"text":"首先我們先看一下第一位是鄭文燦副院長先前就有委員在去年10月的時候當時在司法法治委員會那時候國安局也在他就拿了這個相關所有的影片提供給調查局跟國安局去了解是否為變造"},{"start":4285.894,"end":4299.893,"text":"但是到現在都還沒有一個結果那我想要請問一下國安局我們有沒有去了解外流影片者的來源以及他的動機涉及國安情報的部分有沒有掌握其他類似的影片在外流傳"},{"start":4301.122,"end":4326.597,"text":"謝委員提到這個問題這案子因為引起社會非常高度的幫助所以在發生之後我們也有稍微了解一下相關的一個狀況不過這個案子的調查因為已經移送到司法檢察機關特別是檢調已經立案在偵辦當中所以目前的調查進度我不便說明但是對於委員在關注的有沒有從國安的角度來看到他相關的一個訊息散播的一個管道跟來源這個我們要去了解"},{"start":4327.357,"end":4349.387,"text":"這部分我們所了解到的是當時的一個IP的位置是位在中國大陸的上海由這個IP的位置來進行這種源頭的散佈這部分我們倒是有掌握所以相關資訊一定要提供給檢調單位參考您的意思是說這個鄭文燦副院長他的影片是真的是假的目前在司法檢調進行調查"},{"start":4350.748,"end":4380.007,"text":"但是我們從國安情報上來說呢它的來源是從中國大陸的上海在做一個散播那請問您認為這個影片在外流傳它是否有涉及所謂的境外借選的問題對這也是我們關切的重點我們認為在大選的期間有這些影片的出來那不管它的影片的真偽就它散布的一個時間點那以及它特別鎖定的希望透過這個影片打擊的對象來講我們不能夠排除有中國希望借選的一個動作在裡面"},{"start":4380.527,"end":4399.762,"text":"那您認為就是說在國安方面的資訊我們情報調查除了目前所揭露的相關影片以外就說有在媒體上面所揭露的影片以外國安單位是否有掌握其他的情資是關於鄭文燦副院長其餘的影片在外流傳的部分我們有沒有去做相對應的國安處理"},{"start":4400.442,"end":4416.394,"text":"目前還沒有看到其他的影片在網路上散布那假如有的話以我們的相關的技術跟系統都可以在第一時間來掌握好那第二個部分問到的是我們過去在國防外交的委員也是昭緯羅志政"},{"start":4416.934,"end":4435.693,"text":"那比較嚴重的呢我覺得不是影片的問題而是立委們都有質疑就國安有沒有去調查這個蔡總統被錄音的問題那請問在於蔡總統是否有被錄音這件事情國安局就我們的國安情資所收集的了解情況是如何的"},{"start":4435.953,"end":4457.901,"text":"對,是跟委員報告一下這個案子在第一時間就移送到調查局來處理所以相關的一個影片或錄音檔他的真偽的辨識我們認為還是要由司法警察機關來做裁判所以我們在司法檢調出來結果之前國安局不起動對於是否蔡總統錄音有國安其他的機密外流的問題的調查嗎還是我們有同步進行"},{"start":4461.002,"end":4481.11,"text":"對,假如檢調方面有來文,希望我們國安局提供相關的資訊的話,我們會提供給...他們有向你們提供相關資訊嗎?目前應該還沒有,目前應該還沒有所以不曉得現在目前偵辦的情況如何?對,而且我們也不是可以去說明那個偵辦的事情因為我們非常的擔心,就是說如果這個羅志正委員他的錄音檔為真"},{"start":4482.31,"end":4502.323,"text":"那包含是平常他作為國防外交委員會的周偉他平常跟包含我們很多三軍統帥包含國安局長您還有很多人都有對話的過程當中如果有錄音如果是從他的手機外流出去的那恐怕不只有蔡總統的談話被錄音局長您同意嗎"},{"start":4503.649,"end":4530.824,"text":"對我想對於各種可能性的推測我們尊重委員的一個猜測那因為他已經在申辦過程當中我還是會建議由司法檢查機關但是司法檢調的部分他只會針對說這個比方說這個錄音是否為真他去做一個辨識可是我們今天擔心的是沒有被公佈出來的部分我們假定我們假先假定這個東西是真的那他外流出去了但他怎麼外流的他是否是被駭客入侵的"},{"start":4531.204,"end":4553.319,"text":"如果是被駭客入侵的他有沒有去掌握所有的包含我們現在可能包含我的手機包含我們馬委員的手機沈委員的手機有沒有我們國防外交委員會的手機被駭客入侵的問題這一點司法檢調不會調查這一點是國安單位應該要掌握的請問我們國安局這一段時間起來對於這些情資的處理做的怎麼樣"},{"start":4554.131,"end":4570.463,"text":"對基本上我們不會對國內的政治人物做相關的政治的偵訪或資安的偵訪啦但是假如貴院的委員有這方面的疑慮的話那國安局很願意提供相關的專業的知識或提供必要的協助最起碼應該針對羅志正委員的這個部分要去做這更詳細的調查"},{"start":4571.624,"end":4588.516,"text":"因為他過去是國防外交的召委跟你跟在座的各位過去都有很多私下的談話假設這個為真而不是他個人主動外流是被其他人所竊取那我們就會合理的推斷還有其他相當多跟國防、國安機密的內容是外流的"},{"start":4588.936,"end":4617.915,"text":"他們或許基於其他的理由他沒有讓他在網路上面曝光但是我們國安單位是不是要去掌握到底有多少的情資去外流我們到底有沒有做這些動作呢從2024大選到現在對我想尊重委員的推論有各種可能的狀況那正如委員剛剛所假設的這是你自己的一個推論那各種可能性都有你報告可能是不是但是我們國安單位不就是針對各種可能性我們都要去提前的防範嗎"},{"start":4618.735,"end":4639.966,"text":"我們今天不能說如果今天流出了蔡總統的調查蔡總統的明天如果流出局長的調查局長的後天流出國防部長的調查國防部長的如果我們知道他外線是來自他錄音的手機有這樣子的可能性我們是否在情資上面的佈線就應該要更完整的來做相關的調查"},{"start":4640.746,"end":4667.784,"text":"對我們會重視的還是在於資通訊的安全我剛有在跟委員報告的是我們不會去偵查委員的通訊的狀況不是去偵查委員的手機而是從各方面去了解是否有特定的駭客或是境外的勢力有要用他的這樣子的一個勢力去竊取包含是國防外交委員會的機密然後相關的機密是否已經在外流傳"},{"start":4670.606,"end":4673.107,"text":"所以我們是想要問針對這個委員的部分我們現在調查的如何?我們從2024年的選舉過程到現在有做過任何的處置嗎?"},{"start":4697.072,"end":4721.697,"text":"只要相關的一個案例發生之後就以這個羅委員的部分我們等一下還會問其他的人對就相關案例的部分就是有檢調來釐清相關狀況所以國安局都沒有去做對就國安局的狀況來講我們會注意中共對於我們國內各種的知通安全的侵害再跟你確認一次就是針對羅志正委員的這個部分我們就單純的送到檢調國安局沒有做其他任何的處置對吧"},{"start":4722.657,"end":4749.129,"text":"對,我們剛剛也有在講,我們在溯源沒有問題,我們再問下一位那這個跟手機已經沒有關係了這是當時我們資深的國防外交委員趙天麟委員因為他的緋聞對象是一位大陸局的女子當時就有非常多的立法委員詢問有沒有涉及國安疑慮當事人當下聲稱說他願意接受國安調查那請問這方面我們的調查結果如何有沒有涉入所謂的境外勢力介入選舉"},{"start":4750.229,"end":4772.823,"text":"這些案子剛剛講的委員提到的案子都已經送到了司法這個沒有啊 這個跟司法沒有關係這是他個人的私德的問題他個人也是把這個案子有移送到檢調局但是問題是他說他願意接受的是國安調查他當時不是司法的部分歸司法國安的部分歸國安所以我想請問在趙天麟案上面我們國安單位有沒有做相對應的啟動"},{"start":4774.464,"end":4793.753,"text":"國安局是情報機關我們並不是司法檢查機關所以我們要問的是這名女子她是否在我們的國安調查當中認定是刻意的來接近國防外交的委員來竊取機密是針對這個部分跟司法檢調無關的"},{"start":4794.673,"end":4798.894,"text":"所以你們有去啟動相關的調查在這個案子上面所以那我可不可以換一句話問說在趙天麟案裡面我們所調查這名大陸籍的女子她是否涉及境外勢力影響台灣選舉在"},{"start":4820.604,"end":4844.757,"text":"這個訊息出來的時間點確實是比較敏感因為確實是在選舉的期間那另外我剛才跟委員提到了這些影片所曝露的對象幾乎都是特定政黨的相關的黨政人士所以在時間上還有在特定對象上就我們國安單位來講我們不能夠排除有中共借選的問題所以你們在趙天麟案上面不能夠排除他們這個事件是有中國大陸這個借選的問題嗎各種可能都有我們會協助檢調來釐清案情"},{"start":4847.799,"end":4870.765,"text":"那另外最近立法院上上下下接到很多的恐嚇信包含是韓國瑜院長包含是江啟臣副院長我們立法院的多名藍綠的立委請問目前掌握評估有沒有國安相關的疑慮對這個案子事實上他針對刑事局的一個專案調查因為不是單一個案這幾年有非常多的這個案件出現"},{"start":4871.465,"end":4900.268,"text":"我們就針對近期發生的這件事情就好了目前刑事局所掌握的資訊顯示的是境外的入籍人士在進行這一種但是目前是沒有對臺灣的政壇有所謂的國安影響的單純就是比如說大陸的它是比較偏網路上面的這方面對 它 跟我們說明一下它現在透過這種網路郵件的恐嚇的對象大概有包括到主要的是桃園國際機場占最大量另外是總統府"},{"start":4901.169,"end":4922.788,"text":"另外是警政署的署長信箱那接下來就是各個委員的相關的民意信箱因為時間的關係我還有一個小問題想要來請教你就是說最近金下海域的事件大家都非常關心我們在國安層次對該事件的掌握我想要問在第一時間金下海域發生這樣狀況的時候有沒有通知蔡英文總統"},{"start":4924.065,"end":4941.91,"text":"有在第一時間我記得是發生在2月14號的下午中午大概一點多的時間那我們在第一時間就有掌握相關的情質第一時間我所知道的是海巡的弟兄很辛苦的動員各式的船艦跟人員來進行搜救因為原來四名船員當中有一名一直沒有找到"},{"start":4942.29,"end":4962.945,"text":"那後來發現就是船長被壓在船的底下那部分幾乎整個下午都在做搜救的作業所以我們不安單位都有掌握相關的資訊掌握之後我們有沒有讓蔡總統清楚明白整個過程那請問我們在當時向蔡總統報告的時候是不是使用了我們海巡弟兄第一時間所提出來的報告"},{"start":4964.466,"end":4980.511,"text":"有沒有這件事情我們不好意思主席我們海巡也在是否可以請他們也上來稍微說明一下就說我們海巡單位第一時間其實弟兄是有很清楚的把整個資訊過程都寫出來的請問我們是否是將該份報告上呈給總統參考"},{"start":4983.344,"end":5004.101,"text":"公務委員報告我們上去的這個報告我不曉得那個到底有沒有整個給蔡總統但是是否有這份報告包含是管制長、黃志誠、海域執行官吳俊雄等人、巡防組、勤務指揮科他們是否有做相關的報告提供出來的時間"},{"start":5007.904,"end":5027.04,"text":"所以這份我們可能就是國安局長這邊請問一下我們所掌握的第一時間海巡提供的是不是就是把他們的報告送成交給蔡總統我們收到相關的意外事件都會把相關的最新的資訊報告海巡所以是不是我們兩位都在嗎就是海巡弟兄第一時間寫了很詳盡的"},{"start":5029.542,"end":5049.175,"text":"再給大家看一下很詳細的報告報告之後呢就拿這個報告然後我們也呈交給蔡總統讓他做國情相關的評估就國安局來講我們收到的資訊來自各部會可能不只海巡還有其他單位沒有我只是想問這一份有沒有提供給蔡總統就海巡弟兄第一時間所做的相關報告有沒有提供給蔡總統做參考"},{"start":5050.543,"end":5061.544,"text":"包括我們往上層的報告我們是摘要報告往上送摘要報告所以這份可能沒有看你們沒有往上送這一份完整的是嗎"},{"start":5062.58,"end":5087.873,"text":"上面有誰收過呢?署長、許副署長、張副署長、主任秘書、巡防組組長、督察組組長都有收到這份報告我們不是上呈這份報告給蔡總統是更簡要的報告是嗎?是所以總統不知道最後一分鐘總統不知道你們在第一時間裡面寫的就是雙方船隻是因碰撞而導致翻覆了解了那因為時間的關係我們就先講香港情勢我們都會整給政府決定單卡"},{"start":5088.974,"end":5089.575,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請蔡局長請蔡局長"},{"start":5124.056,"end":5143.418,"text":"好,謝謝主席。連委員長。局長你好。我想其實有關於這個中國的兩會開完之後,大家對於兩岸之間的關係當然是密切的高度關注。不過我想就像您在報告所說的,中國現在對台灣的策略就是一手壓一手拉。"},{"start":5144.139,"end":5164.01,"text":"那麼壓的部分其實從剛剛特別提到的有關於這一次三五船的事件可以看得非常清楚在整個談判的過程當中他們會斟酌於這個糾結於名詞上面然後明明是一個他們也非常無法接受也在嚴格強力取締的三五船"},{"start":5164.89,"end":5180.755,"text":"但是當我們在執法的時候他會故意透過名詞上的定義來增加彼此雙方談判的困難性拉高對峙這個也是之前其實我們都一直說的可能在灰色作戰的部分"},{"start":5181.335,"end":5181.355,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":5202.284,"end":5207.374,"text":"碰撞、撞船這種模擬兩可一般民眾不懂的時候去造成台灣內部的分裂那這樣的狀況是壓的過程當中我們有沒有辦法去化解它"},{"start":5215.836,"end":5230.408,"text":"謝謝委員提到這個問題我覺得委員的切入點也非常好也就一開始先看一下中共現在對台的整體的策略是什麼我們再來看他這個個案的處理的相關的手法那就這一次的今夏水域這是一個壓嗎?就是不要給它壓囉?對"},{"start":5233.43,"end":5254.005,"text":"對,當然,就這次的事件來看,我們可以知道三無船的取締事實上在中共的國務院也是取締的重點。那就我們的兩岸人民關係條例取締這種沒有船名的船隻也是我們的法律規定,海巡必須要依法來執行相關的勤務。只是在這一次的事件的處理過程當中,可以發現到中共特別把這個議題轉移到所謂的管轄權的爭議上。"},{"start":5257.367,"end":5280.687,"text":"包括在2月14號發生的這個事件之後2月17號中共的台辦系統就出來講說台灣方面沒有所謂的禁制水域然後海警系統也跟進這樣的說法所以我想問的重點就是事實上他是想要用限縮台灣的主權的方式來壓制台灣包括所謂沒有禁制水域這件事情"},{"start":5281.368,"end":5298.503,"text":"但是剛剛所提到的比如說是碰撞還是撞船還是逞凶這些名詞都只是前面的包裝但是我們有沒有辦法化解這種包裝讓全民看到因為它要分化的是我們內部大家對於台灣主權維護的分裂"},{"start":5302.366,"end":5324.281,"text":"對,過程當中可以看到有一些政治的操作這包括到所謂該用什麼樣的名詞來形容這一次的事件那另外也要求我們的相關的海委會的官員必須要公開道歉等等的這當然有一些政治的意涵在裡面那更重要的重點是在於虛無化我們的禁縣制水域禁縣制水域的劃設是依照兩岸人民關係條例的法律基礎"},{"start":5324.781,"end":5326.843,"text":"好,所以像這個部分的壓齁其實是展現在方方面面來看下一張"},{"start":5342.941,"end":5358.68,"text":"包括像現在有關於不在籍投票馬上會進入內政委員會來進行討論因為他已經一讀附委了那麼對於你在報告當中也特別提到中國現在是他說的法令是法令他說了算"},{"start":5360.646,"end":5370.175,"text":"在反間諜法以及保守國家秘密法都還在執行當中對於不在籍投票行政院的版本在全國的部分是可以所謂的轉移投票這個部分其實如果合法合規在現有的法規上可以處理是可行的也可以來討論"},{"start":5378.843,"end":5386.006,"text":"但是其他的版本包括了其他境外地區的通訊投票或者是秘密通訊投票等等我想請局長你就國家安全的角度來看當中國不斷的是在限縮我們原本列在你剛剛說的兩岸人民關係條例裡面的禁制水域他都可以打破限縮沒有的時候現在我們修降的一個法規讓在境外地區就可以來進行投票尤其是中國現在"},{"start":5405.475,"end":5420.575,"text":"就像您報告所寫的有反間諜法有保守國家秘密法那麼在台灣以外地區我其實包括我甚至於都懷疑在中港澳地區之外的別的國家中國是可以以"},{"start":5421.676,"end":5423.899,"text":"反間諜法以國家安全相關的法規是可以把人給逮捕起來所以我想更擴大地問這樣子如果在台灣地區以外的地方這樣的版本通過對國家安全會不會有危害你們有沒有評估"},{"start":5439.195,"end":5461.716,"text":"剛剛在進來委員會跟委員做報告之前媒體朋友也在關心這一題那主要的重點大概有幾個面向國際上確實對於一些境外的投票有一些討論也有一些相關的規劃那有的國家認為可以進行但是也有很多的國家認為進行這樣的通訊投票也有它的風險那從國安的角度來講大概有兩個風險必須要顧慮到第一個是治安的環境"},{"start":5462.136,"end":5488.969,"text":"到底適不適合來進行這種遠距的通訊投票?第二個,假如說這個不在己的投票地點是在中國大陸的話因為依照貴院所通過的反滲透法對岸完全是符合境外敵對國家的一個定義那在這種情況之下我們到底國人在當地進行投票的話能不能夠在自由的意志之下來投票?這或許也是另外一個角度要來考慮的但原則上我們尊重社會各界的討論只是從國安的角度提出這些的警示"},{"start":5489.369,"end":5502.34,"text":"好,顯然局長包括整個我們的國安團隊都有思考這個層面跟這個面向但是它是一個即將可能會發生的討論我也希望國安局可以站在國安的角度能夠透過這樣子像立法院這種公開的質詢"},{"start":5506.383,"end":5526.996,"text":"能夠讓更多的國人看清包括中國就是一個境外的敵對勢力他始終是存在的三無傳的事件其實就明明白白的告訴全國的民眾他們正在企圖破壞我們原本制定的遊戲規則要來進行打壓台灣主權這是壓但是另外一方面來看下一張"},{"start":5528.106,"end":5534.291,"text":"中國的統戰是方方面面我想局長一定非常了解過去呢他們也會以施以恩惠包括什麼惠台21項啦惠台多少點啦這個以通促容以惠促容跟以勤促容"},{"start":5543.439,"end":5562.022,"text":"．併講"},{"start":5562.782,"end":5579.151,"text":"以情、以經濟優惠、經濟紅利等等的來拉台灣人民來請看下一張那麼我不知道國安局是不是有注意到這是不是地方包圍中央又新一波的展開地方政府變成窗口了呢我們來看這個叫做福馬同城通而且就像我們的一卡通一樣如果你一旦申請了之後還可以儲值300塊人民幣大概是將近台幣1300吧"},{"start":5591.098,"end":5602.201,"text":"就等於說送你一千三可以在這個馬祖的境內像搭公車這樣子我們TPAS至少還要自己花錢結果他們是直接送錢我們TPAS我們還要自己花錢結果他可以直接送錢像這種以通促融地方政府當作窗口了嗎地方包圍中央這樣的一手拉可能會越來越多"},{"start":5617.489,"end":5637.62,"text":"對,在中共的拉押兩手策略裡面去推動這種促通、促融、促統一直是他們的一個施政的重點我們剛才提到了這個做法非常的久了早期有所謂的海溪區還有平潭的實驗區那現在又提出了所謂的福建的融合示範區等等"},{"start":5638.18,"end":5653.045,"text":"那在這樣的一個規劃之下他們主要希望做的是透過大交流的方式邀請很多的人員交流來塑造一種促通促融的一個氣氛那不過要注意的是在過程當中他們也是希望能夠來吸收台灣的人才"},{"start":5654.113,"end":5654.474,"text":"國防部副部長"},{"start":5671.696,"end":5672.537,"text":"我總的來說,如果像是這種口味"},{"start":5691.087,"end":5697.151,"text":"因為其實本席擔心的是這會不會是一種生活統戰也就是剛剛您所講的交通、生活但是它不只是促統它也會有包括高科技人才或者是我們的高科技的相關的通訊等等的這些安全保障的部分這個是國安局必須要注意的那麼對於他們的生活統戰你們真的沒有辦法嗎還是說我們真的就束手無策嗎來看下一張"},{"start":5720.504,"end":5723.127,"text":"所以在這個部分包括新聞縣政府如果他當窗口是不是依法報備就可以申請那中國的這個所謂地方包圍中央我們在國安局的情資跟對策上面真的就讓他看著發生嗎還是你們會有做相關的通報告訴"},{"start":5736.641,"end":5753.126,"text":"對對這是我們的工作這是我們的工作也就是兩岸的地方的交流合法的我們都尊重但是對於中共操作的手法整體的樣態以及他積極推動交流的主要的對象有哪些背後的政治意圖目的是什麼我們都會有相關的情勢研判跟分析給決策高層做參考"},{"start":5753.991,"end":5764.362,"text":"我現在其實希望的是很多時候不只是給決策高層做參考必要的時候因為這些樣態這些手法因為台灣其實是一個資訊流通的社會很多時候不說就會被民眾說你不敢說是不是在隱瞞什麼不如讓社會大眾知道包括這些樣態"},{"start":5774.853,"end":5799.689,"text":"這些手法它的背後比如它送你一千三百塊台幣三百塊人民幣它要的恐怕不只是在情感上的以通促融或者是以惠促融它要的可能是後面更多的大於更多的有利於中國的而會損害到台灣的不是只是所謂大家有的時候認為的這種好像你干涉我交流你不讓我交流"},{"start":5800.089,"end":5820.324,"text":"那這個背後的部分我也希望能夠局長這裡要在必要的時候做一些解密跟說明在相關的一個活動我們會把他的樣態做完整的揭露讓社會大眾或媒體能夠更進一步的知道中共大概操作的手法另外假如有涉及到違法的部分我們會掌握具體的資訊之後轉移給檢調單位來處理"},{"start":5822.526,"end":5844.54,"text":"好 那麼另外一個我想問的是說今天早上一個最新的訊息是距離台灣只有140公里菲律賓現在證實美國會出資巴灘群島建港要防範如果台灣有事那麼就可以即刻的對台灣的周邊做一些防護不知道局長有沒有收看到今天早上這樣的一個新聞有"},{"start":5846.242,"end":5871.327,"text":"現在美國對於菲律賓還有南海緊張情勢的升高非常的關注所以也在調整他在菲律賓的相關的駐軍那委員應該也知道在去年美國就跟菲律賓簽署的協議要增加在菲律賓的相關的軍事的基地所以這些基地在經過重新配置之後包括菲國的離島地區未來可能都會有新的美軍部隊或設施的進駐這我們會注意相關的情勢以及對區域安全還有太安全產生的影響"},{"start":5871.647,"end":5889.098,"text":"好,所以我只想請您給一個結論,不好意思主席,就是像這樣的一個軍力的部署也展現了其實台灣在國際社會上的重要性,也包含了中國的擴權,其實這些東南亞的國家都擔憂的,所以你可不可以做一個總結,就是這樣的一個方向,你怎麼來看?"},{"start":5889.778,"end":5889.898,"text":"馬文君委員"},{"start":5921.87,"end":5925.051,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請蔡局長邀請局長謝謝主席 麻煩你早局長早 局長我想請教一下近期你睡得好嗎我從來沒有想到睡覺問題比專業問題還要難回答因為我講睡得好好像我不重視台海緊張情勢我說我睡不好好像台海情勢很緊張 有在睡覺"},{"start":5953.032,"end":5967.03,"text":"有在睡覺睡得好不好我想因為國防部長跟國安局長相對的對於台海的局勢我想都是一樣的重視所以現在台海局勢的發展也會影響所有的"},{"start":5968.973,"end":5978.998,"text":"不只是包括我們國防部長還有我們所有的國軍弟兄包括我們的國人其實也都非常的在意我想請教局長因為今天也非常多的委員其實都有討論到那現在台海局勢變得這麼緊張我想請局長是不是可以簡單的分析一下在這8年前跟8年後我們台海局勢有這麼大的一個改變它最主要的原因是什麼"},{"start":5997.25,"end":6012.596,"text":"我覺得最主要還是中國的整體的戰略行為有出現改變那習近平在上台之後對於整體的國力他充滿了自信那他也預定了他2027因為習近平不是在後來才就任對2012年可是他過去其實也是都在的所以這樣子的轉變"},{"start":6018.979,"end":6038.091,"text":"就是說可能兩岸的溝通還有在各方面的交流都很頻繁的情況之下關係都很和緩的情況之下變成現在兩岸的關係這麼緊張最大的因素除了中共自己本身的戰略還有習近平本身他自己的一個規劃以外還有什麼樣的因素"},{"start":6042.012,"end":6057.577,"text":"我覺得最大的因素還是在於中國的整體的戰略行為的變動這剛剛有跟委員說明到那另一方面他的戰略有什麼樣的變動他們現在對於使用展現自己的國家力量來對外進行一些相關的一個"},{"start":6058.957,"end":6061.718,"text":"他的積極對台灣做了什麼樣的改變因為如果以兩會或者長期以來在對台的政策上面其實基本上還是希望採取交流溝通"},{"start":6079.962,"end":6089.549,"text":"還有很多在不管在哪一方面的一個協同可是現在大家越來越緊張那現在的態勢已經變成這樣我們現在也不再討論這個部分了我想請教局長如果就這樣的情況之下因為現在這麼緊張因為老實說啦1300塊就可以收買我們國人看清我們台灣人了啦那如果是這樣政府加碼你可以補助5000塊啊"},{"start":6107.961,"end":6133.095,"text":"我們希望不要把台灣人看得很貪小便宜然後動不動一點點小恩小惠就可以收買我們這是非常可笑的其實在整個國家的政策包括我們自己在制定的很多的政策上面即使是讓國人有很多的可以收到很多的利益都還不見得可以收買人心更何況是小恩小惠所以不要把台灣人自己貶得這麼低我們現在要的是自信"},{"start":6136.657,"end":6160.862,"text":"過去我們在兩岸不管在哪一個國家我們台灣其實我們的進步還有我們的發展還有我們的民主自由才是這個才是我們的優勢不是嗎我們現在常常講的好像不是這樣所以我們現在比較希望在乎的就是說如果以現在大家在這個局勢的分析目前"},{"start":6162.284,"end":6175.956,"text":"等一下也請我們國防部的副部長也上來就是說現在包括我們現在灰色地帶受到不斷的侵擾甚至國防部長對於第一級他的一個說法已經有比較具體不過我覺得他的說法讓大家有一點"},{"start":6179.319,"end":6184.742,"text":"可能有一些是把它誤會了這個等一下請副部長再說明一下所謂的實體航空航海的實體到底是什麼你連漁船或者像一些他們的工程船都算嗎這個部分我想應該要有必要說清楚"},{"start":6197.984,"end":6217.995,"text":"那另外就是在這些方面我想要請教局長我們應該怎麼因應如果以現在甚至在6日兩位現任的總統跟未來的總統他們一起去看我們的海巡艦艇的時候那時候在苗栗就已經"},{"start":6219.136,"end":6236.098,"text":"距離六海里的地方大陸的漁船大型漁船已經進到這樣六海里我們有什麼樣的處置作為看起來那時候是沒有為什麼那未來會不斷不斷的面臨到這樣的問題我們國安單位有什麼樣的積極的建議"},{"start":6237.791,"end":6254.554,"text":"對我想委員當然也知道現在中共對台的政策主要是透過壓拉兩手的兩手策略的軟的一手硬的一手來對台灣進行施壓跟分化那剛委員有提到說在軍事的恫嚇的部分那這個部分我想國防部也是基於相關的國際法"},{"start":6255.655,"end":6278.989,"text":"還有聯合國的憲章一旦有任何的侵略國家的主權或臨海領空的行為必須要有自衛權那這部分的界定由國防部來對外說明可能會比較恰當那至於委員認為說在國安上怎麼樣應對中共這種壓拉兩手的策略那我們認為還是要強調提升台灣防衛韌性的重要性這種防衛韌性不只是只有武器硬體的更新現代化"},{"start":6279.409,"end":6296.337,"text":"他還包括到我們的能源的韌性、糧食的韌性還有社會的韌性加強居民的合作、全民防衛來提升中共可能武力犯台的成本而這個是在烏克蘭戰事之後歐洲國家普遍在重視的國防現代化的方向那我想我們應該要朝這個方向來努力"},{"start":6297.477,"end":6325.289,"text":"局長你也講到重點了其實我們應該提升非常多的韌性可是這些韌性顯然我們好像還是不足的比如說在很多像剛剛有提到的不管是在社會、經濟或者相關的能源尤其是能源我們現在的能源政策對整個國家安全的影響已經非常的大一旦我們台灣遭受封鎖的時候其實對整體的傷害或者"},{"start":6326.309,"end":6353.164,"text":"負面的影響是非常嚴重的就這一點能源的韌性局長是不是再多說明一下對我說明一下也許等一下國防部也補充因為現在國防部有權動署那權動署主要就負責在做相關的規劃那據我所知也有相關的專案在統合各個部會針對怎麼樣來提升我們防衛跟相關的社會韌性來做相關現有方案的檢討那以及來改進我們相關的策進作為這部分有在做我自己參加過幾次的會議"},{"start":6354.81,"end":6373.464,"text":"局長如果你有參加過幾次的會議你應該知道權動署跟現在現有的這些人力資源其實是不足的這個未來我們在國防部的一些相關的討論可能也會提到不過今天我們特別提出來我想就這幾個部分因為應該要怎麼樣因應顯然到六海里處我們還沒有一個應處的作為"},{"start":6379.648,"end":6405.256,"text":"完全沒有甚至消息也是後來才知道所以就這個部分我想我們應該要包括他的大型漁船包括很多的工程船包括他的小藍人我們最後我們應該要怎麼樣去應對的作為而不是只有分析局勢因為現在已經開始面臨這樣的狀況了這個部分我們想請後續國安局要提出更具體的一些建議跟做法"},{"start":6406.016,"end":6431.213,"text":"另外,接下來,因為時間也不多,我想要請教一下,因為剛剛徐巧欣委員有提到了幾個,就...委員,我說明一下,那個只要中共的相關的海警、海監、漁政或相關的漁船進入到我們的淨線制水域,我們的海巡署一定會有動作,包括進行驅離的動作,這是法律規定,這是我們兩岸人民關係的法律規定。那苗栗的那個大型漁船,你怎麼看?三艘的那個漁船?"},{"start":6433.313,"end":6438.319,"text":"對,相關當天的實際的作業狀況我們請海巡署來做個補充已經到了六海里,我們有什麼樣的應處作為?"},{"start":6440.095,"end":6465.84,"text":"委員好 這邊特別跟委員報告其實當天那三艘船進來我們在11點多的時候我們的雷達是有全能監控的那我們也立即派遣我們的巡防艇出去應對但是因為當天的海象7到8最高陣風十幾已經超過我們巡防艇的耐震指數那對方漁船為什麼可以在那裡那麼久你的海象不好我們的船艇沒有辦法為什麼他的漁船可以"},{"start":6466.801,"end":6482.179,"text":"這邊特別跟委員報告因為他們的漁船大概都300噸到500噸那我們的巡温艇只有100噸所以他如果大型漁船來我們就拿他沒辦法的意思我們是全程有監控用雷達監控但是當天我們根據漁船的航行的速度我們判我們認為他應該是在航行當中"},{"start":6485.503,"end":6488.866,"text":"所以這樣的說法不是有矛盾嗎剛剛國安局長還包括大家平常在講的我們支持海巡我們也認為海巡的這些相關的同仁都非常的辛苦我們也支持海巡執法可是我們現在要面臨的問題是我們"},{"start":6503.021,"end":6506.525,"text":"人、船還有包括我們現在要應處的這樣的環境對我們會造成的影響你必須有一個具體的規劃跟作為否則你應該要有什麼樣子的包括中美兩大國他們的競爭關係他們的衝突性有時非常強大"},{"start":6521.161,"end":6539.169,"text":"在我們自己的報告裡面也都提到他們雖然是這樣的一個關係大國競爭的關係可是他們還是在很多地方是採取去風險不脫鉤而且會溝通對話管控分歧我們現在不斷的讓很多的分歧不斷的擴大對我們的傷害其實是越大"},{"start":6542.19,"end":6569.136,"text":"包括我們的國軍弟兄包括我們的海控軍其實他們真的是非常的疲乏包括我們的油料不斷的要增加你怎麼沒有想到應該用其他的方式去管控風險而不是政治解決這個部分這是我們今天要特別提出來的這個部分包括海巡包括我們國安單位其實就這個部分我覺得應該要再去做一個更好的更周全的一個考慮"},{"start":6571.136,"end":6585.29,"text":"你自己的業務報告其他國家都可以這樣做了我們自己做不到過去跟現在最大的改變就是我們根本沒有辦法具有溝通的管道我們的分歧不斷的擴大可是當他進到六海里的時候只是漁船進來我們只是用雷達監控"},{"start":6589.212,"end":6605.391,"text":"我想各種中共的灰色地帶的操作我們確實在執法還有法律的一個運作過程當中要來更細緻來因應它的一個操作因為常常這種灰色地帶的操作還會牽動到的還有一些爭議訊息的散播或是去凸顯管轄權的相關的問題"},{"start":6608.394,"end":6627.249,"text":"現在都已經在發生了,局長這個從頭到尾我們都非常清楚,現在因為時間的關係,我最後我想要請教因為徐曉新委員剛剛也有提到,就他提出來的四個錄音錄影流出的部分,剛剛局長有說借選嘛,在剛好那個時機點,那你看像在"},{"start":6632.474,"end":6651.69,"text":"因為兩年前那個錄音檔已經送給國防部送給調查局送給相關單位還包括韓國的駐台代表處因為裡面牽涉到有很多的不法甚至可能會影響到國家的安全他在兩年前通通不查在選舉前提出來這樣有沒有借選"},{"start":6652.762,"end":6676.36,"text":"那這我想尊重那個司法機關他們偵辦的一個過程我們行政機關不適合對司法審判的案件在...局長我在這裡要提醒一下因為我說的時間點是兩年前就有如果有這樣子的狀況其實不用每一個都推給司法調查司法調查是一個行政調查也是一個今天國安單位如果是影響有委員跟"},{"start":6677.441,"end":6695.584,"text":"中共的女子其實有親密的關係她到底會不會影響這個部分跟司法調查沒有關係這個在國家安全上面本來我們應該要主動介入過去不知道可是當你知道以後你是怎麼樣的作為在選舉的期間該有的全部"},{"start":6696.525,"end":6721.419,"text":"不該有的也全部都出現了那這個部分我們都請國安單位其實也要去掌控我們再一次強調雖然有司法調查不代表行政不能調查包括海巡的這個事件因為行政調查是必要的你都應該要隨時掌握不然司法案件有時一拖非常長的時間那你怎麼樣去做一個風險管控或者在即時可以做一些應處的一個作為"},{"start":6722.56,"end":6732.044,"text":"有 這部分剛剛也跟徐委員有稍微說明一下對於他的船上的一個管道還有IP位置的查找我們這部分都有建議的在IT位置的查找你只是講一個嘛你只是講鄭文燦副院長嘛可是你還有羅志正委員啊你還有趙天寧委員啊還有其他的委員啊像這些他會造成什麼樣而且這麼容易就被錄音錄影如果你沒有做那人家就不容易做這樣的一個動作嘛對不對"},{"start":6749.972,"end":6764.787,"text":"那我們在乎的不是這個影片的內容而已而是它的管道甚至它是不是透過這樣的管道當有很多的里長或者其他的人員去做旅遊或交流的時候都被約談那像這樣子呢你們做了什麼"},{"start":6767.85,"end":6768.89,"text":"那像剛剛提到的這些,像趙委員呢?"},{"start":6796.023,"end":6805.834,"text":"你們有嗎?有做嗎?有做到嗎?不是只有針對鄭文燦副院長其他的案子的相關散佈的網絡管道這個我們都有在做我們講的不是散佈的這些管道"},{"start":6810.58,"end":6810.62,"text":"謝偉提醒"},{"start":6850.919,"end":6853.221,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員上台質詢。"},{"start":6873.187,"end":6884.552,"text":"謝主席、楊文昭我們的國防部長、邱部長在上週質詢的時候他表示以往認定的中共的第一級是指開槍"},{"start":6886.26,"end":6887.981,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下甚至部長說他憂心的都睡不著"},{"start":6909.454,"end":6937.857,"text":"那本席就要在這邊請教局長面對的兩岸的情勢的一個嚴峻那我們國安局你如何的應對那對於第一級的認定他已經是改變這個定義那可能會不會有擦槍走火幾乎我們整個海峽中線等於是消失在這樣的情況之下呢我們的國安局呢你如何的去應對你認為對我們的國安有什麼樣的影響請做說明"},{"start":6938.117,"end":6963.372,"text":"好 謝謝委員就整個部隊的指揮權來講主要是由三軍統帥下達指令給國防部部長再下達到我們的三軍部隊那剛剛委員所提到的在什麼時機點來所謂對於入侵的這些敵方的這些海空實體來進行因應的話這也是根據到聯合國的憲章還有國際法規定這是一種自我防衛權的展現那至於使用自我防衛權的時機點"},{"start":6964.773,"end":6991.349,"text":"還有它的標準的應處的程序是什麼那這部分我們必須要尊重國防部相關的專業的判斷以及他們的預應的方案那另外一部分是在國安局的部分怎麼樣來應處這樣的一個局勢那早上也跟其他委員跟媒體朋友稍微說明跟報告到那對於整個中共的軍事的動態還有海域安全的活動我們國安局跟國防部以及其他的國安的團隊我們都有嚴密的監控那有狀況的話我們會依照我們應處的相關的預案"},{"start":6994.731,"end":7011.013,"text":"來做妥善的處置那特別透過各種的情監針的手法包括電針、雷情、衛照等方式來了解他活動的一個狀況那而且這部分也跟國際的友盟都有在交換情質來判斷中共會不會在這個階段來新興的意圖跟相關的動作"},{"start":7011.914,"end":7024.374,"text":"那目前我們沒有看到台海戰事一觸即發的相關的情資但後續我們會持續的密註有任何的違常狀況我們都依照我們預應的方案來處理避免情勢升高維持情勢的穩定這部分可以請委員放心"},{"start":7025.604,"end":7054.293,"text":"願意給這麼多的時間請您來說明也就是希望讓我們的民眾都能夠更加的了解讓他們能夠更安心因為聽到部長說他都煩惱的睡不著憂心這是一個負責任的態度這是一個負責任態度當然政府橫向的聯繫尤其是你們的體系更當是緊密的這個聯繫那當然剛才你說到請大家放心沒有一處"},{"start":7061.696,"end":7083.806,"text":"當一個定義他已經改變的時候是否他的動作有怎麼樣的一個不一樣這是人民會恐慌的一點所以必須要繼續加油那以往的政府曾經有說過如果台海兩岸這個有緊張的狀況有了十幾套的這個配套啊這個方案那你們是不是有多少套啊"},{"start":7084.446,"end":7086.087,"text":"所以換句話說,你的因應方案是好幾套"},{"start":7114.44,"end":7142.056,"text":"當然當然繼續我們要討論國內外的媒體跟學者分析那今年的美國總統大選應該是由現任的拜登對上了那前任的總統川普在這樣的情況之下請教局長大家對於這一戰是非常的這個關注請教局長我們有持續掌控相關的情報因為美國大選的一個情勢"},{"start":7143.817,"end":7167.059,"text":"兩黨對於我們跟對大陸尤其是對大陸他們的政策是否有所調整那對於我們我們的友台政策是不是會延續當然我們也非常的感謝美國以及很多的國際友人對我們的支持但是有時候擦槍走火我們也沒有想到國際上目前是這麼樣的"},{"start":7168.2,"end":7169.421,"text":"美國和西方對於這兩場戰爭都投入了很多資源,那是不是會影響到未來"},{"start":7190.28,"end":7212.079,"text":"我們的這個軍援台灣的計畫會不會軍售會不會產生變化國際情勢的緊張對於我們的國安有什麼影響你如何因應請做說明謝謝委員就大選的部分我簡單說明目前的選舉的狀況我不做細部的評論因為我們中澳民國政府不適合評論外國的選舉我只是把目前的選情"},{"start":7213.12,"end":7239.968,"text":"狀態跟委員報告那目前我們的判斷應該川普跟拜登很有機會可以各自獲得自己黨內的提名因為就民主黨來講他的黨代表的票要一千九百多票拜登已經拿了一千八百多票共和黨的部分川普要拿一千兩百多票他已經拿了一千多票兩位都只差一百多票所以本期說了這兩位應當是可以篤定是兩個候選人對被提名的機會非常非常的大"},{"start":7240.148,"end":7260.949,"text":"因為當然還要進入到6月跟7月他們的黨代表大會才會做最後的決定那在那之前我們判斷被提名的機會很高這是第一點那第二點是針對兩位總統候選人他們的外交的政策還有對中對台的政策那請跟委員報告一下他們路線不太一樣在外交政策上那川普比較重視的是單邊主義"},{"start":7262.07,"end":7278.081,"text":"拜登比較重視的是多邊主義這是他們主要的差別的地方但是在對中政策上因為現在美國整體的政治氣氛都把中共視為是一個戰略的競爭對手這幾乎是兩者都同步對兩者同步行政跟立法部門還有兩大黨"},{"start":7279.702,"end":7298.407,"text":"對那對台灣的支持也是越來越支持這包括國會通過的相關的法案然後兩位總統包括川普總統任內也宣布了超過10項的對台的軍售案包括有MQ-9的一個無人機也包括了有海馬子的這是以往所以剛剛本席也提出了那以巴戰爭、俄烏戰爭他們投入了這麼多的資源會不會影響到我們的軍援、我們的軍售"},{"start":7307.182,"end":7333.869,"text":"在我們掌握的資訊裡面他們現在重點還是在印太區域的安全他們認為是重中之重甚至確實也像委員所提到的有些共和黨相關的國會議員他們就認為在所謂的中東或烏克蘭投出太多資源的話會影響到在印太地區對於中國的制衡所以各種聲音都有那後續我們會注意到他們在大選辯論的一個政策的走向"},{"start":7334.409,"end":7363.315,"text":"這個就是本席之所以願意給你這麼多時間給社會大眾說明也就是最後這一句話必須要持續去追蹤之因為變化非常的大我們希望臺灣人民我們中華民國只希望能夠安全只希望能夠安全民眾要的就是如此這一點是非常重要所以本席希望要持續的去掌握那最後一個議題本席請教520即將上任的"},{"start":7364.295,"end":7378.923,"text":"新政府要上任那過去呢這個當選人賴清德先生也說了這個準總統說了他表示會將這個留任國安團隊的這個成員那請問局長您在520之後你會繼續擔任局長嗎"},{"start":7384.416,"end":7401.343,"text":"這部分剛剛在會議之前媒體也有關心我大概簡單跟委員說明一下在520之前我們就做好我們現在每一天的工作但520之後要尊重新總統的人事佈局那我就現任的一個官員的身份我不適合去評論新總統相關的規劃不適合評論跟議策如果不當國安局長你也可能會轉為外交部長請問這是你人生的規劃當中嗎"},{"start":7410.686,"end":7415.117,"text":"我們不適合做評論跟臆測是不是你人生的規劃當中呢?不適合評論跟臆測"},{"start":7416.653,"end":7440.053,"text":"所以本期也希望因為在這個兩岸情勢持續的緊張之下新政府上台之後國安整個的策略是否會有怎麼樣的調整這是人民非常非常的關心所以我們也希望能夠讓我們的台灣能夠安全國家能夠安全這是我們非常重要的一個對人民的一個"},{"start":7441.454,"end":7442.855,"text":"目前為止有沒有得到什麼諮詢?"},{"start":7462.182,"end":7462.683,"text":"接下來請李昆城委員上台質詢"},{"start":7492.705,"end":7493.726,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請蔡局長"},{"start":7501.988,"end":7508.251,"text":"本席來跟您討論一下TikTok的資安問題還有這個國安問題那先給局長看這個3月10號有兩則關於TikTok的新聞那第一則就是說拜登美國總統說這個如果眾議院通過這個TikTok的禁案通過了他就簽那第二個是說那個"},{"start":7525.899,"end":7554.119,"text":"反撤資安TikTok發動用戶電話抗議美國的這個眾議員請問一下局長知不知道這兩則新聞知道我們也都很重視TikTok所引發的資安問題等一下會請教局長現在各個國家也管這個TikTok的理由這個不論是從資安或是從國安都有那從美國來看就是說這個TikTok他們認為這個TikTok是管理階層是聽命於中國的政府"},{"start":7554.699,"end":7573.226,"text":"TikTok可能被用來影響美國人．或是將美國的個資交給中國政府．而且有對於兒童心理健康造成損害．甚至也對記者進行監視．這是美國．那包含英國、澳洲、印度、尼泊爾等等都有．那在台灣呢．我們蘇巴夫在2022年的12月5號．有發函"},{"start":7579.635,"end":7595.743,"text":"禁止公部門使用抖音那台灣是用國家治安的理由禁止公部門設備下載使用但是禁令是否有擴及一般的民眾目前還沒有法源依據對不對就是只有公部門禁止使用但是"},{"start":7596.796,"end":7624.501,"text":"這個美國他已經從這一個國安層級來管制TikTok我剛剛有提到說3月7號美國眾議院能源及商業委員會一致通過50比0保護美國人免受外國對手控制之應用程式的侵害法案然後呢如果中國自己的跳動公司呢未在6個月內撤資將面臨美國的禁令那美國的眾議院議長也說這是一個重要跨黨派的措施"},{"start":7625.461,"end":7643.426,"text":"來對抗正積極、削弱我國經濟、安全我們的最大地緣政治敵人中國這個美國眾議院長講得很清楚所以接下來請教局長怎麼看這個美國眾議院目前通過這一項對TikTok禁令那這個對於台灣這個未來的這個管制有沒有任何的啟示"},{"start":7644.039,"end":7664.456,"text":"對於TikTok的治安的問題我們長期都有在關注那正如委員所提到的那國際社會特別是美國跟歐洲國家還有包括南亞的印度尤其南亞的印度他要通過特別的立法來禁止TikTok的全面的使用那相關的一個關注的重點我們都會做相關的研析大概有幾個部分一個部分是TikTok的股權的結構"},{"start":7665.817,"end":7694.453,"text":"因為有中資在裡面包括有中國的央視都有在裡面的股權那另外有一些有中的外資也在裡面那加上中國相關的國安法制可能會要求Ttalk來分享相關的情資這是股權結構可能產生的疑慮第二部分是在資安的問題從純粹的資安的技術的角度來看Ttalk確實有可能讓使用者的個資或相關使用Ttalk這個APP的過程當中一些個人的偏好資訊會被收集"},{"start":7695.473,"end":7696.093,"text":"美國眾議院是用治安還有國安"},{"start":7718.241,"end":7718.802,"text":"拜登總統簽了下載APP"},{"start":7736.881,"end":7763.879,"text":"這個部分有幾個層面要討論第一個是你的禁用是怎麼樣的禁用那第一種有可能是禁止下載APP的下載的動作那我記得這在上一屆的立院林靜宇委員也提出這樣的臨時提案也就是說有沒有可能在下載過程當中有一些警示的告警作用讓國人在下載過程當中可以知道他的資安風險這是下載的部分那第二個部分是涉及到有沒有可能是禁止使用的部分"},{"start":7764.88,"end":7779.417,"text":"這個部分我們會建議最好是有一些相關的法規的完備才不會引起社會太大的爭議就美國的如果是他這個法案通過的話他其實是禁止試用的如果說這個智慧跳動公司他沒有從TikTok設置的話他是禁止使用App對"},{"start":7781.718,"end":7809.366,"text":"所以它其實是做到非常根本的處理方式對,那它會變成一個除了印度以外的一個新的案例那台灣呢?因為連美國議長都認為說中國是他們最大的地緣政治的敵人那更不用講說中國對於台灣不論是認知作戰或是目前的文攻武嚇那如果說美國決定了這樣子做的話就是說字節跳動他們沒有從這個TikTok設置打算禁掉這個APP的話那台灣怎麼做?"},{"start":7810.254,"end":7835.287,"text":"我想不單是說美國怎麼做,我們就要跟著怎麼做當然,我的意思是說當美國認為說中國是他們的地緣政治的敵人了那更何況台灣離中國這麼近那歷屆的選舉都有這個認知作戰、假訊息透過這個TikTok甚至連這個我們在選後都還有在TikTok流傳就是說什麼這個作票的情況對於台灣的影響是非常大的啊所以我是從美國例子來看台灣要怎麼做"},{"start":7837.908,"end":7866.138,"text":"我們認為這部分還是要有一些社會的討論那包括在立法院那從這個國安局的角度來看國安局的角度來講我們當然會去提醒有治安的風險這個部分我們是可以從國安專業的角度來講不只是治安的風險我剛有提到這不是只有治安美國不是從治安美國是從國安的角度來看他的治安會連動到有國安的問題這個當然沒有問題那我們就國安局的立場當然會特別提醒在這一部分要來注意但是我再次強調的是政策的形成或法規的形成要一個社會溝通的過程"},{"start":7867.898,"end":7887.343,"text":"我列示說當美國都已經警惕到說這個TikTok對他們的影響、治安、國安的影響台灣更要有警惕心那身為國安局的局長我覺得對這部分來講的話應該要有更高的警戒性才行我們有在注意相關的美國立法的一個進度以及他們關切的重點再請教一下"},{"start":7889.588,"end":7901.618,"text":"目前在去年美國的聯邦眾議院有通過台灣國際團結法案然後歐洲議會也有通過一個歐洲關係這最主要都在講說聯合國大會的2758號決議這個沒有處理中國代表權的問題沒有涉及到台灣對不對"},{"start":7911.625,"end":7934.098,"text":"對,這是中共的一個國際一中的框架,想要限縮台灣的主權地位跟國際參與的空間,我們必須要予以回擊。對,那現在連那個諾魯,他在跟我們斷交的時候,他是怎麼講的?他就說這個以一中原則還有這個2758號決議啦,然後這個跟台灣來斷交。那但是呢,這個AIT的這個主席羅森伯格他有提到說"},{"start":7937.24,"end":7943.271,"text":"這個2758號決議沒有決定台灣的地位沒有排除任何國家與台灣建立外交國系也沒有排除台灣有意義的參與聯合國的體系空間對不對"},{"start":7945.715,"end":7975.138,"text":"我想2758號決議中國有刻意錯誤的去解讀主要的目的就是去先塑我們的主權地位矮化我們的主權地位讓台灣變成是國際一中的框架之下那中國的附庸那這部分我們會建議要不斷的來串聯國際社會在這部分做更進一步的說明那所以本席要請教在520之前這個中國有沒有這個在這個國際的法律認知戰上面就是在這個所謂的這個國際一中的框架下面"},{"start":7975.738,"end":7999.951,"text":"加強對於台灣的這個施壓有這樣的跡象我們剛剛在報告當中也提到了他現在主要的重點就是在國際一中的框架來限縮我們的國際參與的空間用在520之前他也會持續的透過這種施壓的狀況來影響後續新政府的兩岸政策走向本席要請教說在520之前有沒有可能有邦交國宣布斷交的跡象"},{"start":8001.042,"end":8026.854,"text":"這要持續的來注意啦因為中共他現在在誘拉我們邦交國的做法越來越多元他不單單只是透過政府之間的接觸他也透過他的名氣包括華為在當地有很多的動作例如有一些投資案例如有一些支通建設的基礎設施例如有一些設備的捐助那利用這些的活動來加強跟我們邦交國政府的一個互動聯繫我們都有在注意"},{"start":8027.034,"end":8040.01,"text":"所以局長也有這個在追蹤就是說有可能在520之前第一個就是在國際中的這個法律戰的認知上面對於台灣的施壓那第二個是不是有跡象你們有跡象就是說認為說有可能"},{"start":8040.58,"end":8064.391,"text":"在520之前在外交上面會再繼續施壓台灣的這個外交空間我們會保持高度的警戒所以是有這個跡象就對了我們駐外同仁所有人都非常的注意中共對我們邦交國相關右拉的動作請你們多注意因為有可能在520之前會再繼續再施壓避免另外一個懦弱事件再發生對我們避免這種事情的發生謝謝委員的提醒謝謝局長"},{"start":8075.253,"end":8083.777,"text":"現在先宣告等一下賴世保委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘現在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢麻煩請局長請蔡局長"},{"start":8110.693,"end":8130.748,"text":"謝謝主席 陳委員早早 局長我先針對國安局的統合的角色做一個質詢那國安局我把它簡單的做一個統整那大概就是反斬首、反滲透、反間諜、反借選、反恐攻那其中裡面在你們的政策方針裡面"},{"start":8131.949,"end":8160.44,"text":"我看到有屢次出現預警這兩個字預警就是說在可能發生的國家安全事件之前先提出來來警告國人或者是相關的機關那其實在最近其實不只是台灣在這個美國常常會有一些相關的重大的這個預警措施比方說美國有像這個俄羅斯莫斯科的美國這個公民發出警告說有可能會有極端分子發動攻擊比方說在一些重大的基礎建設"},{"start":8161.3,"end":8174.039,"text":"那在發生恐怖攻擊或者是有可能的電子襲擊之前那美國也可能會提出警告我想知道說國安局針對重大危及國家安全事件的時候你們的預警機制是什麼"},{"start":8175.253,"end":8191.424,"text":"對,依照國安局的組織法跟國家情報工作法國安局本來就負責指導統合協調國內總共有11個情報機關跟4同情報機關那就情報作業的角度來講對於各種可能國家安全的危害不管是來自於內部或外部"},{"start":8191.764,"end":8211.289,"text":"我們都會跟我們的協情單位也就是11個情報跟協同情報機關有透過各種的專案來利用專案的機制收集相關的情資那也會把相關的情資還有最新掌握的狀況跟相關部會來做分享以便來事先應處不是在事件發生之後再應處而是能夠事先預警來應處"},{"start":8212.089,"end":8226.782,"text":"謝謝局長我的意思是說在具體可能你們掌握的情資統整各個情報機構之後你們有足夠的相信它可能會在比如說48小時24小時發生你們有沒有辦法在全國的面前做出預警比方說國防部之前"},{"start":8228.422,"end":8241.206,"text":"針對這種飛行器或者是這個超過卡門縣的相關的這種飛行物經過的時候它會出現預警但我們講的不是這一種我們講的是說有可能立即危害公眾安全的這種狀況你們有這樣的機制嗎?"},{"start":8246.389,"end":8265.305,"text":"發佈的標準呢?發佈的標準要看相關的一個樣態因為可能的安全威脅有不同的威脅來源不同的狀況都有那以我們的機制來講一定會在第一時間來掌握老實講在去年的二合一大選我們這樣的機制的運作還算非常的合作的非常的密切"},{"start":8266.027,"end":8282.132,"text":"我之所以這樣說的原因我還是做一個結論就是說在國防部在這個選前馬上得通報那透過這樣子的各個不同的電子裝置通報那造成的效果有人說是有正有負有一些反效果有一些正面的效果就是至少說國防部有掌握"},{"start":8282.972,"end":8306.292,"text":"但是我們還是要知道說如果有遇到重大 比方說之前其實幾年前高鐵有一個重大的一個國家安全的事件就是有人要引爆炸彈在這個相關的這些高鐵那後來當然是被偵破所以說防止這件事情發生我意思是說在遇到重大的緊急災變之前我們必須要有一個機制做全民的通報我想這是一個非常重要的因為"},{"start":8307.213,"end":8321.873,"text":"情報機關重要的是掌握情資並且做預警不然情報單純的收集情報然後把它放在檔案庫裡面沒有任何的意義它必須要跟公共安全會有直接的結合這也直接導引到我的下一個問題"},{"start":8322.654,"end":8349.285,"text":"我想最近有許多國會議員、我們的立法委員都有接到來自不同的這個我看聽說啦我們是跟不同的這個機關來去請教IP位置都是來自境外那這樣子的問題當然警政單位都有就是在去搜尋那這個可能的這個可能性各種不同可能性我們也不能夠單純的說一定來自中國或者是來自哪裡我們不知道但我想知道說國安局有什麼樣的方式來去應處"},{"start":8351.006,"end":8377.061,"text":"這案子因為已經是一個多年的案子了跟委員大概報告一下從2021年的9月到昨天為止網路匿名的恐嚇案件有526件那刑事局也有成立一個專案小組來處理那針對最近所發生的這種網路的恐嚇案我們的相關的資訊顯示它是來自於境外的大陸籍的人士所發動的"},{"start":8377.861,"end":8405.206,"text":"那大部分都是由單一的個人來發動那我剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過那主要的恐嚇對象包括的有桃園國際機場、總統府、警政署還有各個委員的一個服務信箱那都有在收集相關的一個資訊那也會因為主要是來自於境外的入籍人士所以這也是為什麼內政部有對外說明說他們也是希望透過兩岸共同打擊犯罪的機制來進行通報來防止這樣的事情一再一再的發生"},{"start":8406.026,"end":8425.612,"text":"這樣子的威脅性其實對於人身安全也好當然是有一定程度的威脅但是除了這個之外他利用這樣子的公眾訊息來去把操弄不安的訊息在我們的一般的這個大眾裡面這才是一個很大的問題因為只要是不管是利用誰的這個人頭賬戶他只要把這個訊息傳出去再透過媒體傳播的話"},{"start":8426.952,"end":8455.559,"text":"那大家就會覺得說不安的感覺那好像立法委員受到威脅可是我沒辦法在一定的期限內能夠至少知道說大概是什麼樣的機關組織或者是個人做這件事情所以情報的另外一個工作當然是除了內部參考之外也是向公眾釋出訊息就是說國安局也好各大情治單位知道是誰知道為什麼他們做知道資金的來源是什麼這樣的話對民眾來講是一個比較能夠確保他們自己會比較安全感"},{"start":8456.579,"end":8464.49,"text":"情報的意義有很多種因為我想這個局長也是學者出身所以他您不是軍人出身所以你要知道說對於國防來講"},{"start":8466.474,"end":8495.854,"text":"人民的組成是非常重要的就是人民反應在輿論人民反應在各種不同的威脅的時候他們可能會恐慌我們可能會恐慌我們也來自民間所以確保資訊的傳播的可信度我們寧願不說話但我們講話就一定要有一定的真憑性就是要有證據國安局這個部分我也是希望能夠有這樣的機會來透過這樣的機會來跟國安局長來講這件事情那再來就是針對中共組織犯罪的部分那我們知道說統促黨"},{"start":8501.917,"end":8517.666,"text":"這個案件我看是根據新聞上面來講的話都是調查局是主責那已經有正式的起訴但是在2月29號有宣判那是說因為證據不足或判無罪這個案子國防國安局當初有沒有掌握情資有沒有分享情資"},{"start":8518.576,"end":8534.104,"text":"對,相關的案件我們都有分享情資那也跟委員報告說明一下就怎麼樣讓這些中共對台灣的統戰滲透的案件他的立案率能夠比較高事實上最高檢這邊也做了非常多的努力那邀集的包括我們的國安單位還有"},{"start":8535.345,"end":8558.403,"text":"檢察機關還有調查機關甚至都有相關的講習來訓練我們的檢察官在偵辦這些案件的過程當中可以更知道中共滲透的手法以及在偵辦查查的過程當中怎麼樣找到相關的立案的指標將來移送到檢方跟院方撐案機會會比較大那這部分大概是我們情報機關在前置作業階段可以努力的重點方向"},{"start":8558.663,"end":8577.048,"text":"所以簡而言之你把法律上面所不足的部分有跟其他的這些機構要件都有把他們分享對不對有有有這個跟委員報告一下最高檢他們甚至還有一個相關的案例說明以及立案要件的相關的指標目的就是希望在偵辦這些案件我們的法規的要件可以更完備"},{"start":8578.308,"end":8601.181,"text":"我特別講到這個法律的部分是因為我們知道說有不同的包含調查局、國安局其實在各個不同的縣市都有住處都有住人員在此地在各地那這個部分就是說在收集情報的方面或者是說到時候要正式立案的話那情報的這個方針就很重要那還有情報的互相也非常重要我們當然知道說國安局他的這個根據你們組織法是指導協調支援"},{"start":8604.242,"end":8624.773,"text":"針對資源這個部分我知道都會有各大情治單位都會有定期的這個平台來去交流但我還記得說過去我參加我在國安會的時候參加一些國際組織我發現到外交部有自己的小房間各個局處有自己的小房間各個局處根本沒有在做資訊的統整所以在於統合指導協調這不是"},{"start":8627.054,"end":8646.227,"text":"文字上面的意義那他必須要做真切上面的這個資訊的交換所以特別是在這個指導方針情報的收集還有怎麼樣立案這個我是希望說他不是只有在比較高層的文官到最基層的這個文官都要有非常完整的講習"},{"start":8647.648,"end":8648.128,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8663.894,"end":8664.434,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8692.391,"end":8714.054,"text":"這個局長我們知道這些相關的匯報都有所以我剛剛講說實質上面的部分可能這就是考驗領導人的能力能不能夠至少要留下legacy把這樣的傳統留下來不要說說我們現在是依照文字這樣子去然後同時出團但是各自在負責各自不同的事情那這樣就沒有情報統合的意義在這非常重要所以我們希望局長能夠"},{"start":8715.476,"end":8720.619,"text":"在我們的政策方針裡面有提到這個情報交流的合作接軌國際社會那意思就是說我們跟國外的一些情報機構是不是有定期的一些合作跟交流資訊的交換到什麼樣的程度"},{"start":8740.974,"end":8767.083,"text":"因為現在因為整個中共在區域裡面的擴張的動作越來越多那也造成國際社會很關注到不只是台海情勢整體的印太安全情勢都非常的關切那所以在情報交流部分也開啟我們很多好的機會來跟這些國外的夥伴針對大家共同關切的議題來交換資訊跟情資特別要來研判的重點是在於中共的戰略意圖以及他相關的動作有沒有新的發展趨勢"},{"start":8768.363,"end":8791.719,"text":"除了大方面的戰略之外我們當然是碰到比較細節比方說最近中華電信的資料外洩這個部分這樣的問題其實我們也辦公室已經找到各個中華電信還有各個其他部門來談到那裡面還包括說海軍的租用的中華電信衛星三年前跟諾魯的這些資通的合作會議或者是海軍署的護九號艦艇等等"},{"start":8793.98,"end":8811.627,"text":"這部分都有相關的東西出去,我的意思是說這些資訊如果中華電信本身沒有辦法掌握到底問題出在哪裡的話,國安局有沒有辦法提出協調、協助?好,大概兩個面向,第一個部分是就中華電信的部分,他們針對委員所提到的這個個案已經跟目的世界主管機關、交通部"},{"start":8814.353,"end":8835.095,"text":"交通部有做相關的通報另外也跟數位部有做相關的通報這是個案的部分那調查局也已經立案在偵辦這是第一個面向第二個面向是假如說他的洩漏資訊有涉及到國安單位的話那國安局這邊也會來協同我們的國安單位針對他們的資通訊的安全相關的環境來提升跟加強還有改善"},{"start":8835.895,"end":8859.043,"text":"謝謝局長我的意思是說除了技術上面知道說他的問題在哪裡在以人因的部分以人為因素的部分還有透過人跟人因之外就是機構跟機構的情報交流比方說國安局如果能夠得到其他情資的話也是需要說能夠利用這種平台把它傳遞給相關的局處就是說你們可能得到的情報的管道更多"},{"start":8859.723,"end":8860.623,"text":"接下來請邱志偉委員上台質詢"},{"start":8894.319,"end":8912.56,"text":"請國安局蔡局長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長、國防部副部長"},{"start":8916.072,"end":8924.779,"text":"對國人到香港的商務或者旅遊的人身的安全或者是言論自由會不會造成很大的影響?"},{"start":8925.766,"end":8953.1,"text":"對,相關的一個立法的過程我們在密切的關注預計大概可能在未來的幾個月內就會通過這個立法那這個法案已經講了幾十年我從二、三十年前就曾經做這個議題所以你說在未來幾個月都會通過立法對,對,對 說立法對國人在香港的旅遊或者商務的行為會不會造成很大的影響對,要注意對,因為看到時候要看它的法律的條文那一般來講中共通過的法律條文他說在境內境內有沒有包括這個機場"},{"start":8955.53,"end":8972.679,"text":"對,他的境內還有他的所謂的機場包括包括我當然要注意阿,他有可能在你通關的過程當中要注意,要注意,確實要注意要非常注意還是要小心注意就是要特別注意我看我都不敢經過那裡"},{"start":8974.707,"end":8986.14,"text":"我都沒有經過香港轉機啊你也不敢嘛齁政府官員都不敢吧不會我們不會過去政府官員大概都沒有人敢經過香港轉機如果你這個香港基本法這個通過之後"},{"start":8987.985,"end":9010.794,"text":"你只要說讓他發現說你在這個有發表過這個相關對中國這個不利的言論或者批評的言論你就可能按照香港基本法被抓走了不過跟委員報告一下現在通過香港的那個基本那個相關的國安法規之前現在就已經有國人在過境香港被約談過境香港對在過境香港被有沒有被拘留"},{"start":9014.579,"end":9027.396,"text":"所以香港不是一個特別行政區香港變成一個中華人民共和國的香港市或是香港省 類似這種概念它不是一個特別行政區"},{"start":9028.692,"end":9053.874,"text":"所以國人去香港的這個相關的人身自由言論都會受到跟在中國境內一樣的待遇嗎?是不是這樣?要注意有這樣的發展趨勢你是要提醒國人喔?有,我們會利用這個機會來警示國人我可能這一輩子啊,我不會去香港,連轉機都不可能因為還是中華人民共和國的一省嘛,或者一個市嘛另外討論一下這個"},{"start":9056.522,"end":9083.854,"text":"台海的問題每天那麼多的基建去干擾特別是這個他們的主力戰機為什麼會請博副部長博副部長是空軍出身為什麼請空軍參謀長就是我們空優的部分每天面臨到這個中國那麼多的基建的干擾甚至在越過海的中間我們有沒有掌握局部空優還是我們有這個有自信是全面性的空優"},{"start":9085.56,"end":9105.47,"text":"那個請國防部長報告委員有關於這個局部公安全面空優應該是當時的這個敵對的狀況不過在空軍來講就目前張相洲交戰的時候我們有沒有空優報告委員基本上來講一個飛行員來講就是說在我們的所有的火力涵蓋範圍裡面事實上我們是長有絕對的空優"},{"start":9108.171,"end":9122.461,"text":"因為 絕對的空擁是的 為什麼 因為它是暴露在我的防空的火炮的範圍裡面可是他們數量也比較多啊報告委員 這跟數量和你的戰略戰法都很有關係但是基本上來講"},{"start":9124.157,"end":9150.064,"text":"所以不是一樣取勝,我們是以質取勝,對不對?是的,重點...那我們的戰機性能也比他們更優越報告委員,我要這樣講,所有的戰機它有它的優缺點但是在乎的是什麼?是那個飛行員,飛行員的訓練非常重要對啊,你講到飛行員我就擔心,會不會有飛行員斷層的問題?飛行員養成不易耶是的,委員是岡山的委員,特別了解我們的訓練從來沒有停過"},{"start":9151.624,"end":9166.741,"text":"那至於說飛行員的補充事實上是按照我們座艙比來做調整有更優渥的待遇來鼓勵年輕人投入空軍特別是在戰鬥飛行員的行列然後我很擔心說我們有好的戰機但是沒有一個人力來執行這個空優的戰略"},{"start":9170.665,"end":9194.553,"text":"這個是我擔心的問題報告委員您現在目前我們所有的主力戰機基本上來講我們的飛行員都足夠的那另外一個對於一個新進人員的這個招募的工作我們從來沒有見斷過那我想我們今天我希望說你不要報喜不報憂我是了解實際狀況是蠻嚴峻的人力的補充還是一個很大的議題這可以借到任務的調節來調節飛行員的他的量的問題"},{"start":9197.694,"end":9226.024,"text":"高強度、高長時間的這個戰略的壓力很多的這個飛行員是面臨到很多身心上的壓力對不對那長期以來這個當然會對他們的這個身心狀態造成影響所以能力補充很重要我也希望局長以你的高度你自己協調各個相關的國防單位所以局長你要認識你要了解如何去解決空軍飛行員戰力的問題"},{"start":9228.311,"end":9252.9,"text":"那個副部長你有報告委員有關你所提到的問題這個我想我們空軍長久以來不但只是空軍國軍所有的人力的招募工作從來沒有停止過我都了解啦我是擔心說這個共機的這個干擾這個長時間的這不是一天兩天所以造成我們的飛行員真的是身心壓力非常大謝謝委員的關心我們再入會調整高校機我們有沒有可能再增加數量"},{"start":9253.92,"end":9254.22,"text":"外交及國防部副部長"},{"start":9269.128,"end":9295.869,"text":"出教機也要規劃跟委員報告事實上我們出教機從以前到現在沒有停止過在規劃那在評估的規劃上面來講空軍始終在這個方面做評估不能始終在評估你要進入實質的規劃階段你要有一個方案出來當然有方案我希望你們遵循國機國造的一個方向我們才能掌握我們自己的研發能量才能掌握我們自己的核心技術"},{"start":9296.65,"end":9313.503,"text":"保委員我跟您報告所有的國機、國造或是國防產業都是我們國防部支持的那在這個過程當中我們必須要看我們這個所有的國防產業的發展現況所以現在護照其實要外購還是要我們自製還沒有定案這沒有定案還在評估要到122年的時候它才會發生問題112年"},{"start":9317.606,"end":9331.212,"text":"一百二十二年,你才會開始做規劃嗎?我們現在就已經開始做初步的規劃和評估。那個國安局,蔡局長,你覺得是需要一些國機國造還是要外購?這一部分的評估還是由國防部在作業當中。這個..."},{"start":9334.758,"end":9361.759,"text":"我們再找時間來討論好那一個原則要把握還是要國際國造有這是我們的政策方向那另外影響中國國家穩定的因素包括它的社會穩定的問題經濟的因素包括國際的因素也包括這個台灣的因素你覺得現階段是哪些四個上我剛剛所說四個因素是哪四個這四個因素裡面這個最目前現階段在未來這個兩三年影響中國國家穩定這四個因素哪個最強烈"},{"start":9362.099,"end":9371.345,"text":"我覺得中國大陸內部的因素還是最重要的社會經濟問題是他們目前國內經濟穩定最大的一個威脅另外美國拜登總統或者是未來可能他們的競爭對手又可能川普他們兩個目前的民調是勢均力敵誰勝誰還尚難定料"},{"start":9390.575,"end":9418.815,"text":"他們兩個這個可能的總統．對於這個如何介入台海．如果台海一旦發生戰事．他們介入台海．有沒有相關的劇本規劃．或者因應的戰略因為這兩位總統．一位是現任總統．一位是前任總統你所掌握的這個訊息．你從拜登或者是從川普．在過去所要的言論．或者川普在上任的時候．"},{"start":9420.076,"end":9443.472,"text":"對台海如果一旦發生戰事有沒有做相關的這個戰略因應的方案的評估有就那個那個拜登總統他曾經4次的公開講他對於台海情勢的關注那以及美國也會採取必要的行動來維護台海的安全那川普總統在他的任內也曾經宣布超過10項以上的軍售案必要行動不包括也許不包括軍事行動"},{"start":9445.342,"end":9472.411,"text":"我是講針對軍事介入的這部分協防台灣這部分協防台灣就牽涉到指使館通勤的這個合作啊就你們所掌握拜登跟這個未來可能有可能是川普他們有沒有因應海洋發展一旦發生戰事的時候有沒有用這個軍事介入台灣或者協防台灣的戰略規劃為文本對他們都有做相關印太安全的情勢的評估以及預案的一個準備他們兩個都有就對了"},{"start":9473.744,"end":9496.174,"text":"一直都有美國的整體的英台戰略對於可能突發的狀況他們都有相關的意義我再30秒齁這個如果兩岸發這個一旦會有可能發生局部的衝突一個就是在海峽中線一個就是在金門一個就可能在太平島太平島太平島那個局長你有去過嗎有有"},{"start":9499.434,"end":9523.932,"text":"本席在第二屆當召委的時候我曾經考察這個太平島以現階段的兩岸的情勢來看這個海巡署的高層或者國防部的高層這個甚至總統府的高層或者是立法院的這個國防委員會適不適合現階段去這個太平島考察"},{"start":9524.502,"end":9543.73,"text":"我想到太平島的狀況還是要做整體區域政治情勢的評估啦因為畢竟現在在南海的情勢是比較升溫的那過程當中相對不敏感的齁如果立法院國防委員會或是我是以經濟委員會考察這個南海經濟海域的問題你覺得這個時候去適不適合"},{"start":9548.416,"end":9572.535,"text":"就行政作業上國防部應該有一般的一個行政作業的流程海巡系沒有問題吧我是覺得有必要性啦從這個形式上、宣示上或者實質上都有它的必要性但是相對才有相對不敏感的就是用立法院來好 謝謝時間的關係那我請那個那個簡單回答或者再去報告好不好簡單回答海巡署"},{"start":9574.218,"end":9586.487,"text":"如果立法院組一個考察團去太平島,你們會全力協助嗎?如果政策決定,我們全力配合。那你那個署裡面的高層有沒有去過,或者海委會有沒有去過?都去過,很多去過。接下來請賴氏寶委員質詢"},{"start":9607.508,"end":9615.271,"text":"謝謝主席有請蔡局長以及我們國防部的副部長請蔡局長、國防部副部長我請教兩位長官我看到前面有委員質詢過蔡局長蔡局長說根據情勢現在兩岸和平"},{"start":9635.476,"end":9647.903,"text":"大陸並沒有身高敵意沒有兵兇戰危的氣氛這就使我想到我們國防部的部長邱國正上個禮拜就在這裡他提到了第一集"},{"start":9653.266,"end":9676.437,"text":"第一集,他說只要大陸的,他講的是大陸嘛,越界,求是越什麼界,那個副部長有沒有講一下,越什麼界,告訴我們。報告委員,這個定義非常明顯,在國際法,我們所有的領空領海都是二十海領界邊,到涉海裡是我們的領海區或領空區,這就叫越界。"},{"start":9678.013,"end":9695.598,"text":"因為海峽中線算不算越界這個條線事實上我們長年的默契被中共打破了對但是現在我要跟委員報告的我們所有國際法的規定任何國家只要超過12海裏就是他的臨海12海裏另外還有一個12海裏啊那個是24海臨街臨街區臨街區他進到臨街要不要管"},{"start":9699.259,"end":9726.549,"text":"我大量管 但是我們所有的規定裡面在全世界任何國家都是如果你未經公告要進到這個區域的時候我們必須要廣播你已經接近了再進一步你繼續前進我就攔截當攔截處置的時候如果你還不聽那我們就會用一些驅離的動作一直到12海里如果說進入到所有12海里以內全世界按照聯合國第51條"},{"start":9728.35,"end":9743.233,"text":"所規定的都是行使自衛權那這個要看一定要打啦就對了啦報告委員我跟你們講全世界各國在除這個講白話就是打就對了他有很多的措施他有很多的措施還不是打這些措施我們都要看當時啊別說第1期講整包第1期就是要打啦嚇嚇叫啦第1期啊全世界各國的作戰手法都是一樣都是一樣都是按照這樣子的行使自衛權的方式來做領空怎麼決定的"},{"start":9757.191,"end":9765.015,"text":"領空也是一樣12海里的上上延伸所以進到這裡那這是12再加1224呢24那是臨界區要不要管當然要管那怎麼管我們在臨界區的時候我們海巡署廣播廣播國軍的情監偵單位都會廣播所以你已經接近我的臨界區了請問你喔是只要進入我們的12海里或者上面的臨海領空"},{"start":9783.203,"end":9800.71,"text":"因為我們現在的軍力一定可以打下來對不對?一定可以打下來我們不管空對空飛彈、地對空、海對空都可以打下來不會像以前2016年那個雄生飛彈是吧?打到我們的漁船了對不對?不會這樣子了齁?不會不會我跟委員報告我自己是一個飛行員齁"},{"start":9809.266,"end":9818.83,"text":"在這個我畢業的時候是1981年是民國70年畢業的時候事實上我們這是非在中共的好來我就請教這個局長蔡局長這個講法就是我們當然應該這樣做但是講出來那種感覺就是你要來我就打你那種講保安就是這樣嘛我就第一期稍微如果萬一他是"},{"start":9836.345,"end":9837.225,"text":"國防部副部長副部長能不能話等號?"},{"start":9865.541,"end":9892.259,"text":"這是個原則啦報告委員不能話等這是個原則原則聽不懂原則聽不懂原則聽不懂報告委員我跟您報告我是個飛行員我們的戰備規定非常清楚如果你今天到蛇海裡我必須要看你這個飛機比如說它的彈艙門是打開的如果它有帶彈而且它都有威脅你遠遠就看得到有帶彈我當然可以看到攔截的時候是就近攔截報告委員如果它有敵意的話"},{"start":9893.513,"end":9907.926,"text":"這位我們飛行員來講他沒有敵意是搖擺記憶就表示說我要投誠或是把彈槍丟掉但是如果我警告社企他還是往這邊走他有帶彈那我就要視同威脅包括因為這都是博主不客氣把他打下來了我們會開槍示警全世界各國有用火焰彈的在全世界都有來來來等一下我再請教局長"},{"start":9917.199,"end":9937.304,"text":"國防部長的第一局說,國防部長說他睡不著,國防部長說他常常去恆生指揮所,這些加起來兩岸都不緊張嗎?請不緊張,請問你。對,我想國防部依照他的職責,對於台海的情勢做最壞劇本的想定跟預印,這是他的全責,我們都預印。你不要做最壞的想定。"},{"start":9938.164,"end":9944.865,"text":"對,我們就情報單位來講,我們看的是情報的正確度。所以經過今夏的事件,金門、廈門的海域的事件,到現在還沒解決,經過這個事情,兩岸的惡意流行沒有上升,沒有?我們都有在注意相關中的海事活動的狀態,目前看起來沒有特別的緊張狀況。那你打臉邱國正啊!"},{"start":9962.449,"end":9963.069,"text":"在2月14號發生事件之後"},{"start":9979.514,"end":9983.755,"text":"所以他是有上去再下來嗎?是不是這個意思?他有一個相關活動的頻密程度,我們都有在注意來,我再請問你啊我知道這個一定要問你的你不敢承諾,你不敢回答你的上一任的局長叫陳明通"},{"start":10009.571,"end":10020.418,"text":"他公開說蔡英文任內不會打仗兩岸不會打仗你說你不敢接招你不要這樣講你Google一下Google一下蔡明彥說他不敢不敢這樣講我說兩岸會不會打仗不是會或不會一定要有一些相關的條件你Google一下就好了你Google一下我說我的我今天要特別Google就是賴斯堡問的還記得嗎就是你啊"},{"start":10039.631,"end":10041.954,"text":"現在剩沒幾天嘛 對不對你可以講話了吧我話你之前一定不會打這樣可以講了吧"},{"start":10058.387,"end":10062.37,"text":"會不會?我剛已經講沒有戰爭一觸即發的情質,目前真的沒有。"},{"start":10088.007,"end":10091.169,"text":"現在來看的話老公那裡啊現在推出一個新的名詞啊過去叫反毒促統現在叫打毒促統啊"},{"start":10105.589,"end":10128.375,"text":"他的打獨為什麽從反變成打?你要不要講一下?對,事實上反獨、觸同觸容跟反對外力介入一直是中共對台政策的主要的依據。打獨呢?打獨呢?一直就反獨,對。我就現在講打獨喔,他最新的叫打獨。對啊,我們相關的文字我們都有在注意啦。對。那也不要忘了他的和平統一也是現在有在不斷的定調。反獨跟打獨是一樣的是不是?"},{"start":10129.435,"end":10133.078,"text":"打獨跟反獨是一樣的我都認為這個打獨是針對賴清德來的因為他是務實台獨工作者所以針對他來的"},{"start":10144.794,"end":10169.286,"text":"對,我們剛剛也提到了中共對台政策還是壓拉兩手那可能在520前後他還是會有相關施壓動作來影響我們兩岸政策走向確實會有這樣的趨勢,我們會予以注意謝謝委員提醒這個不會說賴清德要上來之前特別加強這個力度,不會喔對阿,他這是長期一貫的做法另外我請教一個問題,那個大家很關心的"},{"start":10170.601,"end":10195.216,"text":"委員會一直說不是他做的決定但是大家都認為一定是國安會議做的決定禁止副入團的出團請問有沒有開國安會議有沒有就團課的部分呢他涉及到有兩岸政策跟我們的觀光對我就問你有時間到啦有沒有開國安會議你告訴我就國安局的角度來講有爭取的我們意見我們會提供相關你有沒有參與兩個會議"},{"start":10197.157,"end":10225.501,"text":"就有諮詢到我們的話我們就會提供我們的意見你有沒有參加那個會議你要回答我啊我們的會議他有他自己的內部的機密等請問你這個有沒有開會有相關的都有一支有嘛就有會議嘛你在場嘛一再的討論你在場嘛業管機關包括交通部跟包括你有沒有在場我問你你有沒有在場相關的會議我們都有派人參加你有沒有在場我們都有派人參加就是你啊"},{"start":10226.141,"end":10248.153,"text":"都有派人參加派人就派你自己蔡明彥但出席者是誰這是會議內部的資訊我沒有辦法對外揭露所以這個決定我就問你一個這個決定是國安會議的決定對吧這應該是一個跨部會討論的一個結果對嘛那就是國安會議但是我跟委員說明的是你不說這樣我就沒辦法了交通部跟陸委會也都有招會他們也都有招會對"},{"start":10250.474,"end":10271.95,"text":"邱大神、邱主委說他沒參加啦派人參加啦啊你的說起來就比較慕你娘可我看是有參加啦齁這個東西這個問題很嚴重啊這個問題引起賴清德很不好做事蔡英文現在放一炮給賴清德他很難做事因為所有的旅遊者都反彈"},{"start":10273.251,"end":10280.717,"text":"很嚴重的事情這也是國安危機喔這是跨部會討論的結果我們尊重夜館單位的開放騎乘的規劃謝謝委員好吧這個最後還是問你啦你認為賴清的外來執政裡面兩岸可不可能來打仗不然我想怎麼樣來防止委員講的這件事情發生是我們國安團隊最優先的責任你要想辦法讓這個事情不會發生啦因為這是我們責任謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":10304.893,"end":10305.906,"text":"我們現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":10635.751,"end":10637.472,"text":"接下來我們繼續開會接下來請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在請鄭正前委員鄭正前、鄭正前委員不在請張祺凱委員"},{"start":10672.86,"end":10675.784,"text":"謝謝主席,請國安局長好,我們請蔡局長謝謝主席,張維文局長,你是樂觀派的"},{"start":10687.657,"end":10705.799,"text":"大家為了這個國防部長的話好幾個人都睡不著覺了你說什麼到目前沒有情資顯示兩岸有升高是不是對沒有看到情資顯示說臺海戰爭一觸即發或是臺海緊張的情勢我先提供一個情資好不好很有名的學者趙春山"},{"start":10707.093,"end":10734.662,"text":"淡江大學的榮譽教授趙村他剛去中國大陸回來嘛對不對他說兩岸隨時可能開戰如果中國大陸現在打仗他也不意外這算不算重要情資我想我們的情資會根據各種的情資包括科技情報、人員情報各種的人員交流情報所彙整的結果大家要判斷的就是中共的整體的意圖另外就是判斷他的軍事的動作軍事的動作抱歉抱歉我不是插話啦我說你要不要邀"},{"start":10737.143,"end":10756.049,"text":"趙純燦來聊一下,了解一下他去大陸到底問到什麼事情各種的意見我們都會很重視現在2比1,現在國防部長跟趙純燦兩個,你是一票了現在民眾到底能不能好好睡覺我想就情報機關來講,我們重視的還是情資以情資,各位委員報告,這個情資可能包括中共的全面的軍事動態"},{"start":10757.389,"end":10776.712,"text":"海、空、電戰、火箭軍以及空防系統他有沒有相關的準備的動作有的話一定會有徵喉那這是我們情報機關在觀察兩岸情勢有沒有升高相關的判定的依據兩岸這個情勢大家大概觀察兩個很重要一個就是培諾希來台訪問之後看起來台海那個中線不見了嘛"},{"start":10779.58,"end":10790.474,"text":"最近從過年到現在有兩個大的事情就是你們下令交通部要禁止那個入客的那個組團組團到大陸去這個我們沒有下令等一下好好討論一下"},{"start":10792.697,"end":10793.718,"text":"一直開會嗎?"},{"start":10793.718,"end":10809.913,"text":"開了好幾次會嗎?這等一下我們好好討論好不好?我先把情勢講清楚這件事這件事對不對?禁止這個組團到大陸去然後呢金門這個碰撞這個翻船事件到現在都沒有了這兩個事情如果很具體去看 我知道說的裴若曦、賴玉堯"},{"start":10811.052,"end":10813.455,"text":"對,中國當然有希望做這樣的操作但我剛剛也有跟其他委員做說明從2月14號的事件發生之後"},{"start":10828.251,"end":10828.871,"text":"所以局長您的情勢有點"},{"start":10851.656,"end":10871.266,"text":"斷斷續續對不對不是斷斷續續是動態的在觀察之前他來了很多然後現在有點平和有點平和跟最近應該在開兩會有關係吧都有關係對不對對都有那應該還要注意開完兩會之後可能有沒有在升高他再來現在我們擔心的是你看他現在來了海警船連三千噸級的都來了他等於是派軍隊來了嘛"},{"start":10874.158,"end":10888.794,"text":"對不對,他等於派軍隊來的嘛現在這些小蝦米撞到大鯨魚這是一個大的問題第二個他如果常常來尤其兩會之後他又常常來欸金門那個縣縣建制其實那個整個海域可能就是真的會受到影響你有沒有做一個比較你剛剛一直在講"},{"start":10891.977,"end":10913.134,"text":"對,所以我們對後續的一個觀察重點就在於中共所做的政策宣示後續有沒有一些常態化的動作這個是我們要關注的重點當然我們會做最快的想定來因應各種可能的狀況對,這是有必要的局長我今天特別跑來質詢是因為兩會完之後一直到520"},{"start":10914.375,"end":10940.726,"text":"是一個最敏感的一個時機點,然後講也是一個最危險的時機點,同不同意?對,我們要保持高度警戒的一個關鍵的時機點,沒有錯,保持高度警戒。高度的警戒我就要先問啊,你之前我剛講那兩個重要的事件裡面,國安局做了怎麼樣的一個建議?你剛才承認說一直在開會嘛,不管是你去或者是派人去,國安單位這兩個事情,現在看起來這兩個事件導致的結果就是兩岸那個二一螺旋一直在往上走嘛?"},{"start":10941.65,"end":10969.363,"text":"國安局對這兩個事件當初的建議是什麼就國安單位來講我再次強調對於夜館政府機關他對於要不要開放相關的團客的規劃他有他的期程這個我們尊重但是就國安局的立場來講我們會針對中共的整體對台政策以及他對台灣的各種的壓拉的手法也會做整體的分析讓決策單位在評估的時候可以有一個比較全貌的瞭解跟掌握這是我們的職責你們中和評估過了所以你給了"},{"start":10970.223,"end":10976.894,"text":"所謂的其他的相關的部位作為一個建議事實上對我們來看可能不是建議啦如果你們沒有點頭的話我這個淨團店也不會成啦"},{"start":10979.758,"end":11003.116,"text":"包括這個金門這個碰撞這個翻船這個事件如果不是國安局有不一樣的意見其他的包括海巡我相信也不會是這樣的動作沒有國安局是政府團隊的議員那決策過程當中會提出我們在國安情報上面的角度讓各單位一起來討論局長你們非常重要所以我才要很明確的問到底在這兩個事件裡面你們沒有給了什麼很明確的指令或者很明確重要的這個指示"},{"start":11003.396,"end":11012.924,"text":"有提供相關的分析給各單位來做整體的參考如果因為這兩個事件處理不好導致整個惡意螺旋往上走大家第一個想到還是國安局啊"},{"start":11014.335,"end":11037.023,"text":"國安局跟陸委會啊所以我要很明確知道國安局給了什麼意見你到目前沒有給我答案喔對啊那內部的開會我們沒有辦法對外揭露這我背負著國家機密情報的等級這是機密嗎至少就是說怎麼處理這應該是國人要知道的啦國人要不要睡得著就是在判斷國安局長跟整個國安單位能不能讓我們處理得很好讓我們睡得著覺目前看起來就是二一螺旋一直在往上走啊"},{"start":11037.563,"end":11057.576,"text":"國安局到底希望兩岸關係是平和的還是希望他繼續當然當然這也是剛剛跟其他委員報告的怎麼樣來防止兩岸的情勢升高是我們國安單位重中之重的責任局長我講一個比較重的話你期待是兩岸和平當然每一個人都期待兩岸和平你剛剛講你最大的責任就是兩岸不要打起來對可是你看現在看到的狀況是什麼"},{"start":11058.573,"end":11085.635,"text":"國防部長講 國防部長講睡不著覺了第二個你從很實際的狀況去分析現在確實兩岸是緊繃的嘛連一個金門的撞船這個我們不要講撞船啦碰撞好了翻船這個事件到現在都沒有了啊現在旅行社還有很多人來陳情啊欸為什麼要打自己的旅行社M503有因為你做了這個決定國安局做了這個決定或者是我們整體政府做了這個決定M503現在有改變嗎"},{"start":11087.129,"end":11112.743,"text":"有改變嗎?我還是說明一下那個國防部的部分他基於他的職責然後把相關的情況做最壞的想定跟預應這是國防部的權責那我們也尊重邱部長對外的一個發言以及表述他的一個心境心緒這個我們都予以尊重但是就情報單位來講我們重視的還是要有情資我才能夠跟委員報告現在的狀況是怎麼樣那我跟委員說明的情況就是依照目前的情資局長"},{"start":11114.624,"end":11134.519,"text":"這兩個重要的事件你第一個你是在抗議他的M503嘛對不對現在這個事情有因為我們做的這個動作有改變嗎沒有對不對第二個你說他們的團不來這個有改變嗎也沒有然後呢兩岸的二一樓前一直往上走這跟你本來希望兩岸的和平降溫達到效果是相反的欸"},{"start":11136.302,"end":11164.484,"text":"整體各部會都還是有一個相關的評估啦那兩岸的互動它是一個動態的過程那老實講臺海情勢穩定對於各方包括對岸來講都是符合他的利益的老實講我老實跟委員報告過程當中我們還是有看到對岸在做一些風險的控管這我們還是有相關的情質局長我要提醒的是我看到新聞是說從顧立雄到你你們國安團隊是留下來了可能要恭喜你們可是我剛剛是在提醒的光是最近這兩件重大的事情"},{"start":11165.387,"end":11189.214,"text":"看大的都沒有達到我們讓兩岸降溫可以交流沒有,都是往上走的可能要好好再回去檢討一下當初國安局或我們整個團隊到底為什麼要做這個決定這到底是一個對的決定還是不對如果問題要檢討就要趕快去改好不好另外我又還有時間有限我趕快檢聽這個東西520之前是一個最敏感可能也是最危險的時候國安局怎麼確保讓我們睡得著覺有沒有什麼因應措施有沒有準備好"},{"start":11189.914,"end":11214.046,"text":"對,就這個部分來講,我們國安團隊,國安局這邊指導統合協調有11個情報單位跟4同情報單位,我們會嚴密的來關注中國大陸內部的還有對外的行為的動態。第二個,我們也會跟國際的友盟來加強相關的情資交流,判斷中共的一個相關的意圖跟可能的威脅台灣的動作。局長,我們能稍微具體一點點,你看那天他們在問國防部長都已經講到第一級飛機的這個事情。"},{"start":11214.546,"end":11240.918,"text":"我今天問你更具體一點點你們有沒有設想過現在兩岸緊張這個關係已經進入到準戰爭的狀態說萬一有一個擦槍走火我們怎麼應應對我剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過了對於可能台海可能出現了各種的劇本那各種的劇本它會因為不同的環境跟因素產生不同的劇本這部分國安團隊跟國防部都有做相關的一個預應的方案特別接下來的漢光演習就是要去推演相關的劇本"},{"start":11242.818,"end":11266.125,"text":"臺灣演習會推演這個劇?對當然當然所以都是有準備的我們有好幾套劇本裡面包括可能進入實戰狀態或者是有擦撞的時候擦槍走火這個都是在我們有準備的範圍之內當然除了紙上的作業規劃以外還要再進入電腦兵棋的拖延再進入到實兵的一個演訓才能知道有沒有哪些環節可以再強化我們的防衛的能力謝謝局長"},{"start":11268.626,"end":11291.592,"text":"就是回去檢討一下為什麼這兩個事情是這樣的一個處理處理到目前為止M503這個問題還是在的陸團他們也沒有組團來然後兩岸是整個敵意是上升的這是第一個點拜託一下想像一下不要這個國安團隊留下來了結果讓人民還是提心吊膽的沒有和平然後看起來兩岸還是衝突二一螺旋一直往上走第二個520之前各種狀況都有"},{"start":11292.972,"end":11294.212,"text":"接下來請吳宗憲委員上台質詢請蔡局長"},{"start":11319.758,"end":11332.354,"text":"局長你好其實我要問的問題我要問的問題其實如果你們同仁有認真幫你準備的話一定會已經知道我要問的問題是什麼了那很簡單來說"},{"start":11334.605,"end":11356.786,"text":"我今天要問的問題其實很簡單就是這間房子的問題那我想我直接切到議題裡面選舉已經過去了我們都把政治放兩旁我們就談你們一直說的依法行政這個東西我一輩子是念法律的那我們就來談什麼叫依法行政請問局長為什麼可以對這個房子進行維安對依照我們的特定條例第幾條"},{"start":11360.388,"end":11378.909,"text":"我請我們特勤中心同仁把條文跟委員請快一點我們時間很短第12條對不對是好那我來講一下第12條局長第12條我們是可以對於作為維安者的駐居所加以維安請問一下這個是住所還是居所還是什麼"},{"start":11380.282,"end":11381.643,"text":"過去四年賴清德副總統在這裡住過幾個晚上?"},{"start":11400.066,"end":11425.952,"text":"有,他不定期住在這邊,所以才會把他定位為居所他不定期住在,他是住在裡面幾個晚上,你們不可能不知道啊在裡面睡過幾個晚上,你不要跟我說5歲也算,睡過幾個晚上那相關的情資涉及到我們維安對象的作息,我們沒有辦法...好,沒關係,那我告訴你,他們自己也講,他不是住在那個地方好,那我們來看一下,民法第20條是什麼規定的"},{"start":11431.332,"end":11457.265,"text":"來 我跟你們說 民法第20條講得很清楚一定的事實有久住的意思 這個才叫做住所好 那我們再來看 什麼叫做居所83年抗治2343號 另外還有很多個啦 我就不講了居所的意思就是 你要有居住的事實 只是沒有久住的意思比如說我住在宿舍 我長期住那裡就是居所 那不叫住所"},{"start":11457.905,"end":11465.033,"text":"也就是說今天這個地方根本不符合住所也不叫居所請問一下你們憑什麼去維安"},{"start":11466.209,"end":11490.667,"text":"他確實是按照我們的特勤作業的規劃不只是針對賴副總統長期以來我們的維安對象我們的駐居所的定義針對居所……不行不行這樣講你們一直說你們依法行政你現在跟我說說那一套我聽不進去法律上面駐所民法20條規定居所多次的判決判例也都有說明什麼叫居所那你今天針對的這個地方"},{"start":11492.148,"end":11493.349,"text":"法律是可以隨便你們這樣子解釋的嗎?"},{"start":11512.438,"end":11527.951,"text":"但我們在相關的一個作業的規範大概都是依照這樣的一個那我現在告訴你你們這個就是違法的違安啊因為法律上面完全不合嘛之前沒有人點出來但我念法律的我必須在這邊告訴你我會負完全的責任"},{"start":11528.712,"end":11529.153,"text":"居所特別提到的是"},{"start":11545.615,"end":11545.975,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":11576.235,"end":11603.311,"text":"你今天 所以我剛剛請教你過去的三年多快四年副總統在那邊住過幾天有住過有住過你不要跟我說住兩年那旅館是不是我的居所我好幾次睡在立法院那立法院是不是我的居所不是說有睡在那個一個晚上兩個晚上那叫做居所你們法律不能這樣亂解釋啊然後你一直對外界對民眾說你叫做依法行政我說真的好我搞不清楚你依什麼法另外我再請教你"},{"start":11604.693,"end":11628.503,"text":"如果是受維安者的住所或居所你們有沒有裁量權說我不爽我可以不要去維安你有沒有裁量權說我可以不去維安我們當然會評估相關維安的需求來做判斷要不要維安只有專業的判斷如果是他的住所你也可以不要去維安是不是一般來講既然他是住所是長期居住的我們就一定要派製我們的維安好那我再請教你那你們憑什麼後來撤掃"},{"start":11630.084,"end":11647.437,"text":"測哨是什麼原因?第一個他是居所因為有去居住的事實符合剛剛委員列出來居所的相關的法律的判例的解釋沒有我已經跟你說那不叫居所我已經跟你說那不叫居所委員他有居住的事實他就是在我們的居所的第一天我跟你說法律如果可以這樣隨便跟你解釋的話"},{"start":11648.678,"end":11660.784,"text":"那太離譜了啦 法律不能這樣做啦報告局長 你們不能這樣子亂解釋法律那這樣子我哪裡睡過 某一間旅館我睡過也是我的居所我去我爸媽家住一晚也叫我的居所嗎"},{"start":11661.806,"end":11677.53,"text":"我們這會做評估我們這都會做評估只要有維安的需要對於我們維安對象的安全我們可以採取分辨的方式局長你要這樣亂解釋法律算了我也不想再跟你爭辯這個點我跟你講這法律這種解釋全台灣念法律的人會聽不下去"},{"start":11680.151,"end":11706.55,"text":"當時為什麼撤掃?撤掃是居所的事實已經出現了改變因為我們的危安對象已經宣布了他不再繼續居住在這個地方他要把它捐贈為一個公益團體的他講一句話他在辯論會的時候講了這句話就可以變成沒有危安的必要我跟你說我這幾天也在看房子我一直想要在台北買一個小房子我看到一間我說的是事實結果"},{"start":11708.111,"end":11731.06,"text":"結果他跟我說突然跟我說不賣我在591看到結果他又跟我說不賣今天你們知不知道依照信託法信託法他必須要主管機關核准要主管機關許可所以公益信託你要先經過主管機關許可為什麼副總統今天講了一句我要交付公益信託那這個就信託了嗎"},{"start":11732.079,"end":11755.567,"text":"有沒有完成信託是一回事但是我們有確認過副總統認為他以後沒有要繼續居住在這個居所所以我們就撤除了維安的維護就這麼簡單我跟你講那個地方不是居所如果是認為是居所你也不能撤不是撤A就是撤B不是撤去那邊維安就是錯了"},{"start":11757,"end":11764.549,"text":"撤哨沒有 這都是依照兩個就是錯一個所以我真我跟你說啦唉 我說一句重話不好意思 不要得罪"},{"start":11766.621,"end":11794.218,"text":"公務員是國家的不是屬於特定政黨或特定個人的當然當然千萬不要一本正經的胡說八道並沒有並沒有這個不是只有適用在那沒關係啦至少我跟你說至少跟局長說居所麻煩你們去弄清楚什麼叫做居所如果可以像你們這樣隨隨便便解釋說他有在那邊住過幾晚就叫做居所全國的判決判例重新再來過了啦"},{"start":11794.858,"end":11820.03,"text":"我們歷來都是依照這樣的解釋來不叫做歷來依法依法你們一直對外說依法行政麻煩要依法不能這樣做有依法行政提供所有的違安對象同等的一個違安待遇不是同等這不是平等原則在談的地方我們現在是談法律是特種勤務條例裡面說到的住所居所就是法律上面的住所居所的定義"},{"start":11821.41,"end":11829.056,"text":"規矩不可以自己亂擴張解釋我們就依法行政我剛跟你說法律的居所不是這樣你現在跟我辯論說"},{"start":11831.364,"end":11857.998,"text":"你那個字義再了解一下不是我要了解我做了20幾年的法律人我對這地方很清楚所以我剛剛是麻煩局長、貴局能夠去請教一下律師這個地方是你弄錯了還是我弄錯了什麼叫做居所麻煩你們弄清楚如果照你的那個說法的話我跟你講我們的民法我們的歷年的判決都判錯了"},{"start":11859.639,"end":11883.948,"text":"這部分麻煩你弄清楚後面我再跟你討論全國民眾一直很在乎現場危害人員拿掃除用具的事情我有看過你們的說法但是我必須講一個你們的說法是說他只是協助掃除人員把東西移走但是很多人都是把這個當笑話看"},{"start":11885.248,"end":11910.856,"text":"那你們是不是如果今天真的如你們所說的只是協助掃除人員把東西移走那是不是你們以後要去跟同仁講不要做這個事會引起很多不必要的糾紛我們的維安勤務的分配從來沒有打掃的工作只有維安的工作那針對這個個案我們特勤中心也有去了解當天的狀況那當天的狀況就是我們在對外新聞說明的時候所陳述的狀況"},{"start":11912.032,"end":11939.415,"text":"我本來是想要請問一下就是說打掃是屬於什麼違安的行為但是我說真的我有看過你們的說法啦不是完全沒道理但是你們至少跟同仁講不要造成這種誤會嘛對不對我也跟那個委員報告一下你可以在委員螢幕上面右手邊有一位穿迷仔褲的人士他就是一個清潔工人名字我都可以跟你講這我沒有否認所以我沒有我到現在我沒有我沒有去質疑你這個點嘛對不對我一直沒有質疑嘛"},{"start":11940.535,"end":11960.44,"text":"我沒有講這個點我認同你們說的那你們說的如果有道理的情況下是不是要避免以後再造成民眾的誤會我的意思只是這樣剛剛我們提到的那個住所居所得否為安的我跟你講我的立場是這樣我對於法律"},{"start":11961.34,"end":11986.585,"text":"我自己前一關做20年我後來當法律局長做4年這24年的期間我都一直在碰法律從大學念到現在居所的定義絕對不是你們解釋的這個定義你不能說以前這樣做對現在就是對沒有這種事情也不是說你對別人這樣做對對賴副總統這樣做就對你是在陷害他你這樣讓全民覺得他是特權分子這不好這會害到賴副總統"},{"start":11988.405,"end":12007.034,"text":"我相信一個副總統不會去對這維安這麼小的事情他會去知道這件事像別人說你讓他背了一個黑鍋這邊我只是這樣講居所絕對不是這定義千萬不要拿別人這麼做以往這麼做今天我就可以這麼做法律不是這樣玩的啦尊重委員的見解"},{"start":12009.822,"end":12021.035,"text":"那我也尊重你剛剛的那個說法啦但是我跟你說那個說法絕對違法可不可以兩個禮拜給我一個就是我們一個書面的說明給我對書面說明瞭解我們的論述的法理的依據謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":12030.956,"end":12053.422,"text":"就剛剛委員提的部分如果是這樣我們甚至可以要求在過去因為現在反正已經撤哨了那是不是應該要提供過去居住的是哪些時間因為特勤人員只要去行使職權的時候其實通常會有記錄的就這個部分我們希望在委員會的時候跟委員討論我們還是據實以告好不好我們會有做這些要求"},{"start":12059.267,"end":12063.539,"text":"這個局長也請準備一下好 謝謝那接下來"},{"start":12065.792,"end":12070.035,"text":"王宏威委員、徐欣盈委員、高金素美委員、吳思瑤委員、鍾佳斌委員、蔡易瑜委員、李坤澤委員、鄭天才委員"},{"start":12093.749,"end":12112.423,"text":"今天登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有陳永康委員、林益君委員、王定宇委員、黃仁委員還有王洪威委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":12114.624,"end":12129.211,"text":"請相關的機關以書面與兩週內答覆本日委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面與兩週內提供本日會議到此結束散會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"15712","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15712","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eaa7f870fb2fb2a5c3ea093030673645f93be8d109af184be4de3390e7d6a8e2e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-11","start_time":"2024-03-11T08:31:06+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-5"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-11T12:32:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14454,"委員發言時間":"08:31:06 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:1854.459,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年3月7日星期四上午9時6分至11時58分地點紅樓202會議室出席委員蘇巧慧委員等14人列席委員張其凱委員等24人列席官員大陸委員會主任委員邱泰山暨相關人員財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長李大維暨相關人員主席高金召集委員素梅"},{"start":1855.749,"end":1878.895,"text":"報告事項應宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定而邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況．備質詢大陸委員會主任委員邱泰山財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長李大維報告委員蔓益貞等14人質詢分別由大陸委員會主任委員邱泰山財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長李大維答覆說明"},{"start":1879.595,"end":1893.425,"text":"決定一登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束二委員張志倫徐宇珍等二人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報三書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會宣讀完畢請問各位委員上次的會議意思錄有無錯誤或遺漏好那我們就意思確定意思錄確定"},{"start":1911.004,"end":1940.007,"text":"那我們繼續進行本路議程報告事項請宣讀邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況．並備質詢宣讀完畢現在我介紹我們在場的委員我們的王美惠委員我們的黃潔委員我們的黃建兵委員"},{"start":1941.803,"end":1959.633,"text":"好謝謝來先讓我介紹我們列席的官員我們的主任委員李俊勇主任秘書謝美玲綜合規劃處處長張戴琪行務處處長李淑儀"},{"start":1970.08,"end":1996.889,"text":"法政處處長蔡金浩律師室主任蔡允哲人事室主任楊智傑政風室主任張明耀現在我們的委員牛巡庭謝謝你謝謝"},{"start":2010.851,"end":2016.579,"text":"好接下來我們進行業務報告請中選會我們的李進勇主委報告"},{"start":2019.773,"end":2022.515,"text":"本會委員6分鐘必要延長2分鐘非本會委員6分鐘請主委做報告"},{"start":2044.505,"end":2061.772,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位委員女士先生貴委員會今天舉行全體委員會議本人應邀列席報告業務概況．並備質詢深感榮幸以下請就本會近期辦理的各項工作分別報告如後第一項報告的是辦理第16任總統副總統選舉以及第11屆立法委員的選舉"},{"start":2066.393,"end":2073.956,"text":"選舉在113年1月13日合併舉行投票完畢,全國一共設置17,795個投開票所,動員開票所工作人員達到241,741人,並且在當天晚上10點4分完成整個開票統計工作。"},{"start":2086.041,"end":2097.507,"text":"投票結果是賴清德先生、蕭美琴女士當選為第16任總統副總統同時選出11屆的立法委員一共113人順利完成本次選舉"},{"start":2099.175,"end":2128.775,"text":"第二項第16任總統副總統以及第11屆立法委員選舉候選人消極資格的審查總統副總統部分共有3組6人均符合規定並經112年12月5日本會第596次的委員會議審議通過在立法委員的部分除了臺灣維新申請登記名單次序第三號之全國不分區候選人張信松區立法委員臺北市第二選舉區南先生"},{"start":2130.076,"end":2148.326,"text":"臺灣市第5選舉區王先生高雄市第選舉區朱磊新竹縣第2選舉區黃先生屏東縣第1選舉區鄭先生金門縣選舉區歐陽先生以及屏地原住民選舉區洪朝"},{"start":2151.917,"end":2152.417,"text":"委員會議審定通過"},{"start":2169.387,"end":2191.355,"text":"為落實監察職務的工作．以發揮選舉監察功能本會定定了第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法院選舉監察職務分區研習實施的計畫．據辦理監察人員的實務研習本次的研習在全國分區舉辦．一共有5個場次．研習的內容有選務"},{"start":2193.336,"end":2218.872,"text":"選監業務的報告．專題演講以及綜合座談等課程．既有辦理監察工作的人員．一共是525人參加．第4點 辦理選務的宣導．為了鼓勵國民踴躍參與選務的工作．以及行使投票權．並提醒投票使應注意的事項．本會依預算法第62條第一項．及其執行原則辦理政策及業務的宣導．"},{"start":2220.373,"end":2232.606,"text":"其方式包括多元以及數位媒體的宣導結合地方媒體落實在地的宣導並加強對新住民原住民以及身心障礙者選務的宣導讓選務的資訊能夠更深入到各個族群"},{"start":2237.079,"end":2240.261,"text":"在其次是辦理電視政見發表會有關於第16任總統副總統選舉候選人電視政見發表會本會是從112年12月20日起到28日辦理三場的總統以及一場的副總統候選人電視政見發表會"},{"start":2253.647,"end":2274.394,"text":"第11屆立法委員選舉政見發表會則是在113年1月5日辦理原住民立法委員選舉候選人電視政見發表會113年1月8日辦理全國不分區以及僑區國外國民立法委員選舉以及政黨電視政見發表會至於區域立法委員的選舉候選人政見發表會則是由各直轄市縣市選舉委員會"},{"start":2276.875,"end":2294.705,"text":"從113年1月3日到同年的12日之間辦理一共有76場的政見發表會以及5場的辯論會再其次是辦理政黨錄影帶的宣傳本會辦理第11屆全國不分區以及僑居國外國民立法委員選舉政黨使用電視從事競選宣傳即有16個政黨申請使用電視時段"},{"start":2300.549,"end":2314.307,"text":"兼本會完成各政黨宣傳的錄影帶審查作業之後從113年的1月8日起到113年的1月12日晚上9時至10時分別在民視、公視、中視、華視以及台視等5家無線電視台來播送"},{"start":2318.069,"end":2338.614,"text":"在其次報告的是辦理電腦計票作業電腦計票作業是由鄉鎮市區的選務作業中心人員將投開票報告表資料輸入計票系統迅速完成會計各項網路安全以及系統備餘員的措施都是以最高規格的防護本會在112年12月辦理55場的教育訓練以及112年12月"},{"start":2344.216,"end":2362.692,"text":"113年1月辦理三次的電腦計票全國模擬演練．並模擬異常狀況進行演練．以致即時應變電腦計票作業在113年的1月13日晚間10點04分順利完成在其次報告的是選務錯假信息的澄清舉報以及移送的程序"},{"start":2363.752,"end":2391.234,"text":"本會在全球資訊網爭議訊息澄清專區．行政院的即時新聞澄清專區．以及Line today的謠言破解專區．都發布新聞稿予以澄清說明本會成立錯假訊息的防治小組．並與相關的社群平台建立舉報的管道．討知需或接獲民眾檢舉選務的錯假訊息時．我們就會循著這個舉報的管道．通知相關的社群平台來做處理"},{"start":2392.395,"end":2395.257,"text":"本會接獲民眾檢舉選務造謠案件之後相關檢舉案件含送檢警機關來辦理後續偵查的作業以防範"},{"start":2405.969,"end":2425.949,"text":"選務錯假訊息持續擴大散佈,截至113年2月5日,依上開程序舉報,一共有358則,令選後仍有選務的錯假訊息流傳,毀損選務人員的名譽,影響本會機關的形象,本會仍會持續依照既定程序來做辦理。"},{"start":2427.148,"end":2432.271,"text":"臺中市議會第4屆議員及第15選舉區,宜蘭縣議會第20屆議員第4選舉區的缺額補選臺中市議會第4屆議員第15選舉區,也就是平地原住民的部分所選出的議員黃人"},{"start":2447.439,"end":2450.702,"text":"宜蘭縣議會第20屆議員選舉第4選舉區選出的議員陳俊宇在111年的12月25日就職任期4年依照第11屆立法委員選舉的結果黃仁議員當選平地原住民的立法委員陳俊宇議員當選宜蘭縣選區的"},{"start":2467.376,"end":2472.459,"text":"立法委員查台中市議會第10屆第15選舉區平地原住民及宜蘭縣議會第20屆議員第4選舉區應選名額分別是1名跟2名上開當選人已經在113年2月1日宣誓就職第11屆立法委員並於同日辭去議員的職務"},{"start":2485.945,"end":2493.95,"text":"所以議員名額出缺：各該選舉區及缺額達二分之一以上所宜的任期超過兩年依照地方制度法第81條第一項規定應該要辦理補選本會在599次的委員會議決在113年4月13日舉行補選投票"},{"start":2507.262,"end":2521.368,"text":"10.督導辦理地方公職人員補選作業,自本年1月至目前為止,一共督導各直轄市縣市選舉委員會辦理本屆地方公職人員補選,已經辦理13項,預定辦理計29項,辦理情形相如附表1、2,請各位委員參約"},{"start":2527.498,"end":2550.052,"text":"辦理全國不分區及僑居國外國民立法委員的遞補作業依公職人員選舉辦明法第73條第1項第3款的規定全國不分區及僑居國外國民選出的立法委員在就職後因為辭職出缺時其所疑的缺額出於書面聲明放棄遞補者外由該政黨登記的候選人名單按順序依序來遞補"},{"start":2551.593,"end":2577.24,"text":"本屆全國不分區及僑居國民僑居國外國民立法委員民主進步黨籍由委員習坤辭去立法委員職務其所疑的缺額以按順序依序由該政黨候選人王委員正序來遞補第12項頒禮直轄市縣市議員的遞補的作業那截至目前為止已經遞補本屆的縣議員有8人遞補的情形也請各位參議員複表3"},{"start":2579.601,"end":2603.779,"text":"在7次報告的是受理全國性公民投票辦理的情形112年度下半年本會受理提案人領銜人所提出的全國性公民投票既有疑案辦理的情形如下本會是在112年12月8日受理季節先生領銜提出的你是否同意廢止2022年12月29日國防部所宣布的將民國94年次"},{"start":2605.54,"end":2613.405,"text":"以後出生的藝男藝物役役期延長為一年之公告全國性公民投票經113年1月19日本會第598次的委員會議決議舉行聽證會並決定在本月15日上午10時舉行聽證"},{"start":2623.277,"end":2648.475,"text":"其實辦理全國性公民投票電子聯署系統的辦理情形本會是在108年5月14日至112年5月17日以行政院資通安全處數位發展部資通安全署一共先後有7度稽查本會的資安項目以及稽查的結果辦理公投電子聯署系統資安的強化的措施數位發展部的資通安全署在112年的7月"},{"start":2650.777,"end":2673.734,"text":"含附公投電子連署系統負責都已經修復通過另外行政院112年7月10日到本會進行自動安全的稽查稽查團隊一共列了22項待改善的事項為確保系統資安無虞以及系統的韌性所以本會也規劃辦理前開系統上線前作業經提112年8月本會的委員會議審議通過在112年1月17日完成行政院"},{"start":2679.895,"end":2698.052,"text":"第112年7月之中安全及核待改善事項．提113年2月本會委員會議審議通過系統上限日期定為113年4月10日嚴禮全國性公民投票不在籍投票法的草案為保障投票人的投票權益"},{"start":2699.94,"end":2724.33,"text":"規範全國縣公民投票不在籍投票的實施本會研擬的《全國縣公民投票不在籍投票法》草案也經報由行政院在110年9月30日合轉大院審議經大院內政委員會在110年10月20日、11月17日兩度召開審查會議並同其他委員提案審查完畢立法院黨團在114年4月1日協商因應大院第10屆"},{"start":2725.45,"end":2741.836,"text":"藉其不續審﹚為使前開草案在大院第11屆第1會期能夠盡早完成審議﹚所以本會已經在113年2月5日以原送請大院審議的版本重新報請行政院來審查﹚並且經行政院在113年2月22日合轉到大院審議"},{"start":2746.405,"end":2759.016,"text":"另外是辦理選務人員的這個講習那這一部分請各位委員參與書面的資料其次是辦理執行政黨連坐的裁罰本會最101年4月3日期到113年3月5日子一共裁罰208件裁罰的金額達到1億7416萬5千元"},{"start":2767.743,"end":2785.054,"text":"辦理選舉徵送的案件選舉徵送的案件簡述如下最高行政法院有五件臺北高等行政法院有七件臺中高等行政法院有一件臺灣高等法院高雄分院有一件那在公投爭議案件的部分目前上係數在最高行政法院的有一件"},{"start":2785.914,"end":2790.437,"text":"在其次辦理參與國際選舉組織的活動本會許委員亞芬在112年12月6日到12月7日代表本會參加2023年亞洲自由選舉網絡第6屆亞洲選舉利害關係人論壇並以中央選舉委員會打擊選舉假訊息的做法為題進行報告分享本會處理選務假訊息的策略及經驗"},{"start":2813.971,"end":2834.323,"text":"在其次是積極參加世界選舉機關協會 以及亞洲選舉官署協會 的活動。112年7月11日A-Web第11次的執行委員會議在哥倫比亞的加泰基納 舉行。本會是由王委員韻如代表參加。本會林委員抄旗在112年8月23日至8月25日"},{"start":2838.049,"end":2861.4,"text":"代表本會參加AWeb的秘書是在跟國際共和研究所合作在泰國曼谷舉行的第8屆亞洲的民主與選舉國際會議並於會中就臺灣如何在選舉過程中促進青年參與為題來進行報告。113年1月本人代表中央選舉委員會參加在印度新德里所舉行的AEA的執行委員會議邀請各國來臺參加113年"},{"start":2864.702,"end":2883.67,"text":"由我國所主辦的AAEA的會員大會。113年3月20日AWEB第12屆執行委員會議在韓國仁川舉行本會將由陳副主委朝鮮代表參加。最後報告結語為了貫徹憲法保障民主法治以及人民參政的本質"},{"start":2885.79,"end":2905.499,"text":"設立本會統籌辦理公職人員選舉罷免以及公民投票的事務因此如何營造公平公正公開的選舉環境克服各種不利的人民行使參政權的障礙為本會陸力追求的目標今年本會辦理第16任總統副總統以及第11屆立法委員選舉民調的結果有84%的受訪選民對本會辦理此次選舉相當的工作"},{"start":2912.522,"end":2937.795,"text":"委本會仍將努力精進推動選務的革新．完善各項選務作業的流程．必讓社會各界．能夠對選務機關更具有信任感．使臺灣民主政治更加的深化穩固以上的報告 敬請各位委員指教謝謝好 謝謝我們中選會我們的主委現在我補充報告我們出席人數現在我們還有"},{"start":2940.679,"end":2961.911,"text":"徐毅臻徐毅臻委員還有我們的張宏祿委員我們歷史提案結束提出的時間是10點本會委員執行完畢以後處理請各位委員有沒有意見沒有好沒有好那我們沒有意見我們就繼續"},{"start":2963.953,"end":2974.981,"text":"那我們現在接下去我們的我們的主席的委員我們請我們的登記1號我們的張宏祿委員請上請上歡迎台好謝謝麻煩請主委好請主委"},{"start":2997.045,"end":3008.028,"text":"委員早主委我看到有報導有說我們這個全國性公投電子連署系統預計4月10號要上線測試這是有確定嗎是的這經過本會的599次的委員會議已經決議那4月10號要正式的上線"},{"start":3020.083,"end":3044.836,"text":"是正式上線還是測試正式上線但是在上線的初期我們會根據數位部給我們建議還是提供給民眾他們來做測試那時間可能就是到4月下旬之前4月下旬之前還不會有公投成案開始要連署的情況之下我們會提供給民眾來做測試"},{"start":3046.357,"end":3053.863,"text":"對啦所以要說清楚啦你4月10號上線之後你還是有一段時間是要測試啊那是公民中其實在之前我們內部的測試都已經完成了我知道你是內部的測試完成但你4月10號上線之後還是有一段時間是公民中測試的嘛不是正式我就可以連署了嘛也沒有案子當然是沒有嘛所以還是測試的性質嘛我覺得這點要講清楚喔"},{"start":3076.261,"end":3100.49,"text":"要讓民眾知道喔不然你4月10號上線了那我到時候說不行什麼的我覺得這個要講清楚啦上線跟測試你很多的人家飯店也要試營運啊你這個我覺得訊息要清楚啦好不好其實我們原來的用詞是試營運是為了避免誤會所以我們就是說還是讓公民一般的民眾他們有這個測試的機會"},{"start":3102.771,"end":3122.543,"text":"對的我覺得4月10號上線是一件好事但是要跟大家講你的測試的期間要供大家測試是有多久的時間我覺得排一次講清楚啊我覺得這樣子才不會讓民眾誤解啊對的你可以去網路上看啊有的人其實搞不清楚欸以為4月10號就可以用了欸"},{"start":3124.335,"end":3139.242,"text":"不過這個測試我們有特別注意到就是不能夠跟已成案的這個公投案我知啦我說的是你們這個都很好但是講的不清楚啦我們會有正式的記者會會對外再公佈"},{"start":3140.903,"end":3164.683,"text":"會正式記者會在對外公佈在上線之前我覺得要講清楚因為你們這個會讓人家誤解現在之前資安處有講25項缺失都解決了都已經改善完成都完全沒有問題都改善完成資安的風險也已經修復都已經修復了"},{"start":3168.672,"end":3190.262,"text":"那你們齁這個到時候我覺得你記者會要說清楚啦會謝謝委員這是一個另外一個齁我一直在跟你們說啊齁這個啊無障礙投票啊齁這個啊每次投票都會出現問題啦這次還是有啊對不對我不知道主委你知不知道啦齁還是有啊"},{"start":3192.998,"end":3193.798,"text":"我們的無障礙的檢核合格率大概都達到93%以上93、94以上"},{"start":3216.064,"end":3243.481,"text":"那有部分這個檢核雖然有這個缺失的部分但是都用輔助設施的方式來予以補足這個原則上都沒有問題可能有一兩個單獨的極少數的個案那就必須要用人力用人工的方式來做協助比如說我不知道有沒有比如剛剛委員所提的說你那個輪椅還必須要用抬的也許極少數的案例是會有的"},{"start":3244.562,"end":3263.643,"text":"我跟主委說齁在選前我就一直提醒你們這一個我現在跟你講得很清楚啊在板橋浦泉國小101教室啊第1385投票開鎖欸他設置在階梯上面啊那你說坐輪椅的怎麼上去他雖然在一樓啊"},{"start":3264.971,"end":3275.477,"text":"爬階梯上去啊這個階梯都必須要有那個這個斜坡的所以就是有就要選務人員去抬啊是是這個我們會加這個都有要求都有規範齁"},{"start":3277.548,"end":3302.109,"text":"我知道這個處委都有要求都有規範但這個選務是地方政府第一線是他們在辦的嘛他們也是報上來跟你們講嘛那他們報上來你們也是看資料而已啊對不對我們沒有那麼多的人力我們也沒有辦法說一個一個去看但我選前我就一直強調"},{"start":3303.47,"end":3303.61,"text":"主委"},{"start":3326.515,"end":3354.018,"text":"你說的都是道理大家都知道沒有落實執行我講句比較不好聽一點的我如果地方政府我故意不要讓投票率高我就故意找這些對不對你沒有落實這個我們一再強調我覺得這一個下次的選舉不管什麼選舉我覺得這一點我們要能夠做到百分之百的避免對不對"},{"start":3355.859,"end":3362.149,"text":"阿不然你照這樣你也是沒有講成阿你到最後你還不是每個人都一樣技功嘉獎"},{"start":3363.527,"end":3387.295,"text":"對不對地方選委會他也自己就技功嘉獎啊不是嗎這個都有考評啊沒有沒有考評你也不是第一線啊對不對對不對所以我變成考評不公啊對不對這個我覺得要加強好不好好我們會再注意另外啦我們都一直在講選務人員的訓練啊什麼的你們都說有做得很好嘛對不對齁"},{"start":3390.086,"end":3413.729,"text":"像這次的總統立委選舉就有投靠一票所連票不知道是故意的還是疏失我個人認為所有的選務人員不會去故意現在大家數值都很高而且幾乎都公務人員在做了不會有這種事情但是我覺得受訓就是這個沒有落實"},{"start":3415.454,"end":3429.309,"text":"這個票是給人家報錯欸假報成疑欸來回差了兩百多票欸那如果不是當場有人制止有人發現有人制止欸 就這樣蓋上去了欸這個是百分之百發生的欸"},{"start":3434.199,"end":3447.886,"text":"對不對所以我覺得這些你們我之前一直跟你講這些訓練都要很精實結果勒還是一樣我覺得這個真的你們在下一次的選舉真的這個選務人員的訓練要再加強"},{"start":3452.609,"end":3478.041,"text":"的確是有些個案的確因為是選務工作人員的疏失而造成了一些瑕疵那我們加強訓練這應該是要做的但是最重要的就是說像這樣的情形在現場都有複合的機制一關兩關三關你說這個報票這個投開票所的這個報告票都經過三道的複合的程序所以當場就會被發現"},{"start":3479.842,"end":3502.148,"text":"不會去影響到選舉的結果但是我說的這個案子是你們的三道符的程序都已經完成了是人家在那邊看開票所的人說你這個亂寫記錯你還要應該印送上去是當場人家提出抗議他才改的這個個案我們會再進行了解這個是百分之百的這個有很多人證就在新北"},{"start":3505.523,"end":3505.543,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":3527.155,"end":3547.208,"text":"謝謝上官陸委員我們主委主委針對我們電子連署這個系統你剛才講4月10號真的很多民眾都不曉得也不清楚你這個電子連署你要開記者會你還是要很明確的表達你是測試然後要讓民眾來熟悉這是很重要"},{"start":3548.655,"end":3569.792,"text":"上線之後那會開放給民眾在4月底以前進行測試也許有一些意見他會回饋我們因為你開記者會的話是很清楚的去去去去描述啊好謝謝你的提醒謝謝好那我們第二位啊我們的牛心亭啊我們委員啊謝謝好謝謝主席啊這個中委會主委有請謝謝好主委"},{"start":3584.18,"end":3591.75,"text":"委員好主委早安本席先請問一下您覺得公投的重要性比起我們一般的選舉孰輕孰重"},{"start":3594.278,"end":3594.679,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":3612.981,"end":3641.369,"text":"是因為最近大家開始熱議這個不在籍投票的這個法案的修訂啦那當然嘛就是這個我們的選舉的辦法總是要與時俱進這個基於變民啦這個最大的考量應該是目的是要降低社會成本讓選務的推動能夠更順利我想這個大的方向這個應該是不分朝野應該有共識的地方對不對但是本期看到這個行政院現在推動的不在籍投票的修法只限於公投啊"},{"start":3641.849,"end":3652.675,"text":"我覺得這個是有一點奇怪的剛剛主委也講了嘛既然公投的重要性跟選舉的重要性應該是一樣大的那為什麼我們不能一步到位呢這是不是請主委先做一下說明"},{"start":3653.308,"end":3664.3,"text":"好的 並不是說僅限於公民投票 而是從公民投票開始我們徹底的根據實施的經驗再來做研議 再來做推廣那為什麼會有這樣子的考慮其實因為選舉的不在籍投票牽涉到的比較複雜的因素"},{"start":3675.072,"end":3689.242,"text":"所以有關於總統副總統的選舉不再集投票的辦法其實在102年105年都有兩度的被提出來因為朝野意見分歧沒有辦法達成基本的共識所以102年的是藉其不續審"},{"start":3691.943,"end":3707.731,"text":"105年的是行政院就把這個案子撤回去了再重新進行檢討那現在的策略是怎麼樣我跟委員報告現在策略就是說因為選舉你不能夠因為選制的一個改變一下子衝擊到選務造成選務的混亂的話那影響到整個選舉的公平所以我們是採取比較審慎的態度從公民投票"},{"start":3715.875,"end":3732.261,"text":"主委我想你回答得很清楚吧但這就跟我們開宗明義去談的這最大的價值基本上就是相悖嘛你剛剛講說選舉跟公投重要性一樣重要這是對於選民行使參政權的保障可是你在實務執行的時候你們顯然是把公投當成實驗嘛"},{"start":3732.921,"end":3757.541,"text":"其實我們講大白話就是這樣你說我要先從這個東西做參酌然後從這個經驗來延伸其實他的意思就變成把共和黨實驗當然我理解主委沒關係我理解就是說選務操辦事情很複雜的事而且我也贊成主委剛剛講公信力很重要所以我不能理解但是我希望這次在討論的時候因為本黨有提出非常多不在籍投票的修法法案我希望既然民眾是有這樣子的需求"},{"start":3757.881,"end":3777.573,"text":"希望基於辨明也希望基於平等的概念能夠一步到位我們今天因為質詢的時間畢竟有限到時候修法的時候我們可能還有專門的時間來做討論跟報告選務單位的意見我們很忠實的來提供給各位我現在今天做質詢的意思就是請主委先做準備好不好我們的議定主張"},{"start":3778.973,"end":3807.062,"text":"選舉跟公投要並進那當然範圍上可進可退主管機關的困難之處大家要著於採訥採納社會的質疑之處大家要著於說明但是我們要先做準備好不好所以這是本期今天提的第一個問題適用的範圍跟實施的方式都需要中選會請你先提版本嘛就像你現在公投有不在籍一樣地方選務你也先做好準備嘛好歹我們在到時候討論法案的時候這個草案是由內政部來提啦沒關係但是我是覺得你要做你要做單位的說明我們都有討論"},{"start":3807.782,"end":3812.287,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3825.3,"end":3846.179,"text":"再來本期今天要做政策對話本期主張要選務成本高一點社會成本才會低一點剛剛我們討論不在即投票其實就是一個例子但我們還是要再補充說明幾個其他的例子比如說第一個我們談這個剛剛結束的這樣大選的若干的所謂的選務爭議我完全理解基層選務人員他其實是非常辛苦的"},{"start":3846.519,"end":3847.22,"text":"中央選舉委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":3863.394,"end":3879.614,"text":"提升公信力的工作 絕對划算比如說票箱票櫃格式的全面統一比如說計票唱票的動作能不能規定的更細緻一點與此同時本席也強烈主張你再給予這些基層選務人員的津貼跟福利也要全面升級"},{"start":3880.655,"end":3909.49,"text":"這些東西去做下去的時候也許我們下一次選舉即便它還是高張力但是你這邊選務的細節東西做得越好質疑的聲音就會越少基層也會更有把握這樣子你同不同意本席的說法我絕對同意好不好那這一點我就請中選會就趕快來做研擬了像這種事情我是覺得不斷的在精進在選務的部分對啦要讓民眾對我們能夠有信心這樣做喔那個過程如何能夠更加的透明這樣做選務單位會多花錢可是如果社會質疑能少一點社會成本是降低的"},{"start":3909.69,"end":3937.515,"text":"這就是我剛剛講的那我也跟委員報告一下我們一次選舉20幾萬的選務工作人員大部分來自公教上一部分是民間熱心的人士所以是熱心人士所以我講我們在規則的設計上在動線或者是物件的佈置上面能夠提高公信就降低他們壓力也是他們的說法好不好第二個本期也提一下公投連署的事情你現在有電子連署系統剛剛張宏祿委員也有去做一些質疑"},{"start":3937.915,"end":3945.234,"text":"可是提案的部分好像沒有辦法用也許提案的門檻比較低啊可是既然都是同一套的科技設備你為什麼不能一體試用呢"},{"start":3946.311,"end":3967.359,"text":"提案的門檻比較低這是一個原因另外一個原因就是說因為這個公投的提案在提案正式成立要進行連署之前其實我們選務機關缺乏完整的一個審議的機制就是說你隨便進來都可以進來都可以那如果是這樣子的話恐怕會耗費很多的這個社會的成本"},{"start":3972.742,"end":3999.722,"text":"你的主張當然是從中選會的本位去做思考啦但是我們作為民意代表我們的本位是人民的權益嘛既然我們會弄出一個公投一定是人民對於這個題目有強烈的意志啦所以當然審查上一樣這是我剛剛講的你可能選務的成本會增加可是社會成本會降低嘛我們希望說這個東西透明方便快速有效那當然不表示你不審核嘛對不對但是我覺得把電子提案也納入聯署機制應該不會太困難啦"},{"start":4000.382,"end":4020.533,"text":"這一點我希望中委會來做思考再來我要再講的是那既然公投可以做電子連署我們這個相對來講沒有黨籍背書的政府總統候選人他的連署能不能也納入電子連署的機制好不好因為今天的時間今天的時間比較短這一部分你提供後面的一些資料但本席都希望科技的運用不要為得不足"},{"start":4021.173,"end":4048.774,"text":"一步到位那是比較好的也許一樣你選務又要適應啦但是對於整個社會來說如果是有效率的我是認為應該要大膽的往前跨對整個國家來講選務的穩定是非常非常重要這個本席也同意因為這個不能夠讓他有任何的一個錯亂對但是你要把這些東西大家都思考我們是很審慎我們不是固步自封我們是很審慎這一點也請大家能夠最後一點點時間本席要跟你談一下這個一些選務的改革當然也許跟內政部有關因為選政選務好像"},{"start":4049.915,"end":4068.008,"text":"有一點分工的這個問題但本期是強烈主張我們要逐步增加公費選舉的比例我們當然沒有不太容易用一部法律啊就讓所有的選舉都變成公費選舉但是我們可以增加公辦選舉的一些這個一些比例比如說我們現在在地方民意代表公辦政見發表會就一場"},{"start":4068.829,"end":4083.511,"text":"然後也不強制辯論或什麼的能不能透過增加場次的方式慢慢讓社會大眾認定說這一場選舉公辦政見發表是重要的我們能不能開始設計公辦看板的格式讓大家去知道"},{"start":4084.491,"end":4102.404,"text":"這個由公家來處理的統一格式的選舉它的比例是重要的它在選舉裡面的佔比跟話語權跟曝光度是提升的這樣可能沒有辦法一步到位但是它可以慢慢慢慢的走向公費選舉制的精神對於所有願意參選政治人物尤其是年輕世代來講我認為這是有正面意義的"},{"start":4103.605,"end":4128.736,"text":"這些事情我們剛剛講的不管是公投電子連署的提案我們剛剛講選務的一些精進措施我們講的選舉制度的一些方向的一些改革都會增加你們中選會的工作內容可是這些工作內容的增加成本的增加都會降低社會的成本提高選舉的公信力所以希望主委會後針對本席提的這幾個政策的建議去擬具一些書面的回應好讓我們知道推動的方向可以嗎好的謝謝主委辛苦了"},{"start":4131.73,"end":4135.234,"text":"主席 請李金鴻主委"},{"start":4155.767,"end":4175.442,"text":"李主委您好有關剛剛您報告的有關這次2024的總統大選的一個選務的辦理狀況我想對於公民行使這個投票權就是我們一種民主的展現相信您也認同說我們民主最可貴的地方就是一人一票票票等值"},{"start":4176.002,"end":4204.268,"text":"所以說我想對於政府來說我們是有意願去提高我們所有公民去投票的意願而且讓他們能夠更方便的去投票主委您認不認同是的OK那如果主委您認同讓我們每一個公民要行使投票權的時候都能夠有更方便更快速的一個方式那我想接下來就有幾點要跟主委討論一下首先我們來看一下"},{"start":4204.908,"end":4228.247,"text":"我們總統選舉的全國投票率我們在2020年的時候是74.9%在2024年是71.86%所以我想請教一下主委這中間大概差了3%大概少了58萬人投票我想請教一下主委您認為這次的差距主要是什麼原因"},{"start":4229.352,"end":4230.773,"text":"請問您覺得如果跟返鄉距離遠、交通成本高這兩點會不會有關係?"},{"start":4251.628,"end":4276.929,"text":"這個是一體的兩面就是說你某一個單獨的這個因素你把它處理那相對的會不會再去減弱其他部分的一個參與這個都必須要做深入的討論所以這也是造成返鄉距離委員跟江峰成本高也會是造成他投票意願的一個關係那我想再您再看一下我們花蓮跟台東還有雲林他們的投票率"},{"start":4277.89,"end":4278.411,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4294.634,"end":4294.834,"text":"離島投票率"},{"start":4310.905,"end":4337.611,"text":"各位可以看到不然是澎湖金門連江離島的投票率其實又更遠低於全國的平均投票率所以我覺得在這個部分看起來我們是不是更該盡速的完成不在籍投票的立法所以在這邊也請教主委對於我們這次的選舉罷免的總統副總統的選罷法還有公職人員的選罷法的不在籍投票目前有進度嗎"},{"start":4339.094,"end":4360.235,"text":"第一點我跟委員報告就是說這個投票率的高低恐怕沒有辦法很簡單的把它規則到一個某一個特定的單一的原因這個牽涉到很多複雜的這個因素交錯所形成的那這一點第一點說明那第二點說明就關於不在籍投票的部分"},{"start":4360.956,"end":4364.498,"text":"一百零二年提出總統副總統只限於移轉投票一百零五年也提出為什麼沒有辦法完成立法程序呢?最主要是各方的意見分歧這是一個非常非常複雜的個別"},{"start":4384.148,"end":4385.149,"text":"公民投票不在即投票法"},{"start":4401.015,"end":4401.375,"text":"請教主委有沒有相關的時程"},{"start":4415.209,"end":4432.857,"text":"這個就要看大院的審查的程序了是不是能夠在這個會期裡面完成如果大家共識這麼高要推動不再舉投票大家的共識是很高如何推動擁有不同的這個看法但是最基本的跨出這一步應該是非常非常重要"},{"start":4433.157,"end":4457.59,"text":"因為我想主委也很清楚我剛剛看你們的報告也有很多我們的委員參加各種國際的選舉的組織的各項活動所以應該很清楚在很多的民主國家不管是美國英國德國法國甚至是我們附近的日韓其實他們行使不在籍投票的選舉都已經行之有年而且也都施行的非常好那為什麼中選會針對這個部分你們有去跟他們交流學習嗎"},{"start":4459.021,"end":4482.834,"text":"有關於不在籍投票的各國實施的情形我們都有相關的資料的收集也跟我們參加的兩個會員國際組織的會員國之間大家有過討論當然各方的各國實施的這個經驗都可以作為我們的參考那在台灣我們非常重要的就是說我們不希望一個選制的改革改變那對於選務能夠"},{"start":4485.095,"end":4487.598,"text":"主委參考民主國家的不在籍投票目前不在籍投票哪幾種方式"},{"start":4505.197,"end":4506.518,"text":"其實我看剛剛提到這幾國大部分都有通訊投票跟提前投票這兩種"},{"start":4533.587,"end":4534.307,"text":"公投不再起投票規劃移轉投票"},{"start":4551.633,"end":4571.049,"text":"所以說你們要先做一個前期的實驗的性質那如果是這樣的話我想請教一下主委我們既然是一個前期實驗的一個性質我們是不是可以把更多不同的不在籍投票法也施行在裡面來看看這樣子的一個實驗的結果是不是可以作為將來總統跟我們其他的公責人選舉的一個參考比如說就我剛剛講的通訊投票還有提前投票這些"},{"start":4579.033,"end":4605.951,"text":"是不是能夠提高我們公民行使投票權的意願呢?委員所提到的通訊投票我們馬上考慮到的一個還不只是說選務能不能夠可行的問題而是他有沒有這個選舉公平性選舉秘密這個投票秘密保障的一些風險存在你的通訊投票真的按摩摩"},{"start":4606.852,"end":4607.553,"text":"通訊投票對公平性和私密性"},{"start":4629.389,"end":4630.449,"text":"移轉投票在我國的選舉實務上是已經有經驗我們希望在這個經驗的基礎上我們有跨出去"},{"start":4656.377,"end":4656.537,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4681.963,"end":4683.724,"text":"黃建斌委員主席主席主席"},{"start":4707.096,"end":4727.834,"text":"委員好主委早安早主委我們在今天大概在討論很多關於比賽期投票我想很重要的一個點就是在我們未來不管是公投以外或是像是我們的公職人員選舉甚至下一屆的總統副總統我想大家在乎的點更是這個可以適用的"},{"start":4730.407,"end":4756.542,"text":"那我想要請教一下主委喔主委你曾經在花蓮花東服務過嘛是的那主委你這一次投票的時候你是在哪裡投票我在台北投票啊主委你的戶籍原本是在我的老家在雲林縣啊給你戶籍有簽在台北嘛對不對啊假設如果你的戶籍沒有在台北的話你不覺得投票的距離會影響"},{"start":4758.564,"end":4778.219,"text":"你投票意願嗎?會不會?投票的意願跟這個投票的時間啦距離啦這個不必然有關係啦不必然有關係嗎?對不對?不必然有關係不必然齁?不必然有關係剛剛不管是牛軒廷委員或是徐政委員都有提到就是減少成本這件事情齁最後來Bug我們用台東的鄉親來做比較齁台東的鄉親要回去台東投票的成本"},{"start":4788.627,"end":4815.684,"text":"臺北到臺東的車票是一張花車票是七百七百八十三一趟七百八十三來回是大概將近一千六那臺東到臺北的距離的時間這個本期在上次委員會有提到大概四個小時的時間來回就要八小時以這樣子的投票的成本你覺得重不重"},{"start":4817.516,"end":4840.444,"text":"時間投票時間成本我想選民對於選出一個好的他自己認同的公職人員他所在乎的應該不只是這個這個車票的票價的一個考量他更在乎的是能夠他認同的候選人能夠因為他的支持而當選"},{"start":4841.448,"end":4864.469,"text":"主委本席提這些其實在強調這件事情民主必須要有城鄉差距的我們要加速不代替投票的辦法其實這個可以減少很多的時間因為其實台灣的特殊環境每一個縣市的情況都不同有可能因為救血救魚救養的問題他必須在他戶籍以外的地方來工作來生活可是牽扯到投票這件事情的時候會反而造成他的一個困擾"},{"start":4865.694,"end":4865.834,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4890.149,"end":4913.023,"text":"這個也是這次剛才徐政委員提到的這次投票率的問題我們這次總統大選有7個縣市都沒有超過70%其中也包括了臺東、花蓮那離島更不用說了離島縣市甚至有些沒有超過55%都沒有超過那金門縣大概37%差不多這樣的投票率更低顯現出不在一起投票的重要性我們一直強調票票要"},{"start":4920.799,"end":4923.681,"text":"委員所顧慮的這些因素當然我們選務機關並不是沒有看到我們也看到了"},{"start":4945.373,"end":4946.394,"text":"本期還是要強烈的要求"},{"start":4971.898,"end":4972.438,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":4990.329,"end":4990.729,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5007.819,"end":5020.503,"text":"雖然在服役 服 服刑 可是他還有具有投票資格嗎?因為這樣子造成的 你在國際報告也寫到他們也要求要投票這件事情嗎?是不是可以減少這樣的情況發生?因為他同樣也具有投票權嗎?對不對?我們拿兩個職業來比較齁 那光有獸型人"},{"start":5028.12,"end":5045.4,"text":"一個是沒有被褫奪公權的囚犯他可以公告他有投票權一個是因為要執法要守護治安的警察他因為執行中期他沒有辦法再復席投票那這兩個情況造成的衝突性不是也因為這個關係來剝奪他投票權嗎是不是主委"},{"start":5048.186,"end":5069.095,"text":"他事實上行使投票權有一定的困難這個我們也了解但是基本上就是說你必須要選制能夠配合就是選罷法兩個選罷法所沒有規定的事項不在即投票的部分你要建立一個法制但是這個法制不能夠憑空蓋起來他必須要有打好基礎"},{"start":5070.295,"end":5095.835,"text":"這個打好的基礎就是我們希望的就是從公民投票開始來實施能夠累積經驗然後徹底的來推廣謝主委說明齁主委我認為我們天安地區臺東的子弟還有在北漂各地的學子的權益齁我堅決的要推動不再去投票我想我們也相信我們這一次的質詢在網路上又被"},{"start":5096.636,"end":5096.916,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5113.863,"end":5140.071,"text":"那我也相信主委這10年來其實在這個行業在這個領域上的努力我也相信主委會協助我們偏鄉的這些鄉親還有離岸的鄉親那這邊我再次的強烈的要求不再急投票公投不再急投票要趕快來實行那以上是本席的質詢拜託委員能夠支持我們全國這個公投的不再急投票這個案子能夠早一點通過謝謝委員謝謝主委主席謝謝"},{"start":5146.274,"end":5154.897,"text":"謝謝黃建斌委員的質詢下一位請完美會委員謝謝完美會這是我們家主委請我們中選委主委"},{"start":5170.049,"end":5177.553,"text":"委員你好主委早 主委本席因為今天有很多人說到不在即投票 是在本席的領委 覺得說你們的競爭 你不敢說 我替你們說因為最主要就是 你們不在即投票那在台上的投票是誰最會吃什麼"},{"start":5198.322,"end":5205.929,"text":"因為是一個國家沒民主沒自由的國家,你在那申請投票的時候,他甘會想到他跟他想要投什麼人可以投?主委,是不是你有這個歡樂來本市所講的這個問題?"},{"start":5221.291,"end":5224.775,"text":"民主選舉有很多條件,這條件對大陸來,其實不限定在特定的地區像2020年到2024年這兩次大選,國內外的報導"},{"start":5242.011,"end":5264.659,"text":"國內的情治單位所提供的警訊：國內事務單位所處理的個案在在的證明什麼事情一個對民主選舉最大的威脅就是境外勢力的借選這是很清楚的事情所以當我們在考慮這個選制的改革的時候不能夠不把這種風險要考慮在裡面這就是全部機關所擔心的問題"},{"start":5269.121,"end":5278.667,"text":"因為不能因為境外勢力的一個借權我們反而是提供給他一個管道所以我們要守得很好 要怎麼守得很好這樣主委你所說的就是海外通訊的投票啊不只是這樣 無所不在"},{"start":5288.234,"end":5294.296,"text":"這很嚴重的我們搖搖無恥要用不在籍投票的時候這不像我們台灣面臨這種的挑戰你美國的選舉不想讓大家站起來有很多國家都實施下去覺得說這不公平不行我趕快再做一次是有很多國家也是這樣這個不在籍投票不是不能做但是特殊的一個最主要你要做給人民"},{"start":5317.706,"end":5324.369,"text":"我相信大家要共同民對不在即投票像你剛才所說的,我們說實在的,你說不在即投票的時候"},{"start":5342.037,"end":5343.919,"text":"總統都一樣 副總統都一樣 幾週就是幾週在選舉當中 不一樣的地方 有76個投票 不一樣的候選人這也是很嚴重的分析 不可以出卡車"},{"start":5366.161,"end":5368.503,"text":"所以在這裏面本身要跟你說,你一直覺得說,在廟宇的時候,是多少剛才你所說的,可以有什麼好克服的地方嗎?來,主委來"},{"start":5381.495,"end":5383.759,"text":"我要報告的是 其實這個不在籍投票對於選務的衝擊這是要再基礎喔不是沒問題有問題 你參與說立法院選舉 如果說要用不在籍投票選 76張票"},{"start":5398.118,"end":5398.318,"text":"選舉委員會主任委員"},{"start":5422.648,"end":5430.635,"text":"基本的問題最重要是什麼?就是說你選舉競爭的公平性很重要啦!這最重要!所以本事要跟你說你在不在意投票,在沒有民主主義的國家投票出來,會對一個好選人"},{"start":5441.024,"end":5443.767,"text":"對你的問題就是說你用不一樣的不再期投票的方式總有它一些風險的存在那你實施的話能不能夠得到社會各界的信賴這很重要"},{"start":5456.34,"end":5463.522,"text":"選舉的過程若被選舉不相信會斷的會變成這樣所以我們考慮的是這些因素這些因素不是說你就不能做就是說我們必須要有很完整的一個整個有累積實務的實施的經驗這樣穩健的跨出我們不拒絕我們不排斥但是選務的穩定性一定要考量"},{"start":5482.898,"end":5496.241,"text":"主委,在你剛才所解釋的那樣,在本席所要你說的就是說,你如果說已經要契用在4月70要契用嘛,對,這個連署當中,沒有人知道,沒有人是你說要契用的啦,大家都想說,現在開始了,不簡單,你們的中選會要開始給人家整個電子連署了啦,"},{"start":5512.711,"end":5531.977,"text":"但是真的你們的資訊讓人會覺得說﹖那個﹖契庸﹖真的沒有人知道主委你知道這個契庸﹖真的﹖所以說本身在這裡﹖我希望你們還開記者會﹖我們有安排﹖對﹖還要安排﹖再來在剛才你說宣布的時候的滿意度93%﹖"},{"start":5542.797,"end":5569.33,"text":"對選務工作人員服務態度．高達13．高達10．主委．在電台的選．要選的選．本選後．跟你談到說．很多地方．遇到身心障礙．的人要去投票．絕對要想到．他們的權利是主委．你有看到．你看．唯一一個．身心的好選人．"},{"start":5571.055,"end":5582.781,"text":"陳靜安他講什麼?他說他看到老闆在那裡還可以回去,結果他沒辦法回去,他跟媽媽就要再去死一年之後,才有辦法回去。主委,我們做這個真的不到位,在本社在這順的時候,就跟你們說,一定要變民,像地方的,"},{"start":5600.239,"end":5611.223,"text":"您敢不敢去統計說,目前有我們的不方便的有多少,這次我們要檢討多少,我相信他們都不知道,都有怎麼會變成這樣,那這個問題是怎樣來,主委我們不要講白話,來講這個問題就好了"},{"start":5620.436,"end":5621.698,"text":"委員會主席發言委員會主席"},{"start":5639.258,"end":5639.438,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":5660.569,"end":5660.629,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5690.369,"end":5707.053,"text":"麻煩報告給我因為我覺得每一個我們都要公佈不是跟我們的好選人身心的好選人而已我相信每一個地方都有這個問題本來跟你說過我們要方便民有的他真的在輪椅上看真的不方便他還回來主委"},{"start":5718.342,"end":5743.065,"text":"真的,我們這個問題,要深入去用,你還要有進步的空間,以上是,我也拜託啦,就是說如果有遇到這個問題時,要把我們的工作人員歡迎。謝謝完美會委員的資訊。主委,完美會委員提出我們的場地勘查一定要落實,好,謝謝。"},{"start":5746.018,"end":5749.502,"text":"好,我們下一位委員,我們習星雲,我們習委員好,謝謝主席,那本席請李主委好,請主委"},{"start":5770.308,"end":5785.299,"text":"本席首先要就我們選政跟選務一直是分立的這個情況跟主委來請教現在我們選政整個都是內政部"},{"start":5786.369,"end":5790.872,"text":"選務是中選會公投法現在選政又歸在中選會所以選政跟選務為什麼不能合一"},{"start":5801.618,"end":5817.909,"text":"主委支持選政選務合一嗎我們過去雖然是在選舉的部分選政跟選務是有分工啦有內政部主管這個選政我們主管選務那過去運作的經驗其實都相當的順遂沒有沒有其實每次在討論比如像選罷法的時候兩個部會就要溝通協調其實是"},{"start":5825.794,"end":5827.095,"text":"世界各國選政選務分開的有哪些國家?"},{"start":5841.568,"end":5866.013,"text":"說不出來啦 重點是說不出來因為選政選務在世界各國都是合一的那我們台灣有它的歷史這個過去會分開有它的歷史因素但是近幾年來幾乎社會上都是希望選政選務是合一的包含106年的陳朝健副主委"},{"start":5866.973,"end":5886.061,"text":"還有112年的黃秀端委員在立法院行使同意權的這個審查的時候都認同這個方向可是我們看到蔡政府8年以來呢都沒有把選政選務來想辦法合一那不知道是有什麼考量"},{"start":5887.602,"end":5894.165,"text":"其實這個政府社官分子都有一定的基礎選政選務合一這樣才比較好處理嗎那你看選報法又是內政部公投法選委會那選報法內政部可是選務選舉的時候選務又是中選會所以選政選務合一請問是不是內政部反對"},{"start":5914.393,"end":5933.007,"text":"還是行政院有什麼意見我從來沒有聽說內政部有反對那為什麼不合一因為運作沒有發生困難運作都相當的順遂同時在選務裡面其實這個在第8屆其實簽不到內政部的業務也非常的多其實在第8屆本席當立委的時候那時候其實"},{"start":5933.968,"end":5955.697,"text":"在野黨也支持選政選務要合一那為什麼這8年來反而沒有所以這個部分本席想請主委是不是可以您這裡來向行政院跟內政部表達選政選務合一如果運作制度的一個設計產生實務運作的困難當然我們會反映"},{"start":5959.699,"end":5982.209,"text":"但是自從我認知以來﹖所以您同認同選政選務合一﹖沒有漢格之處那是都是你在說的所以本席還是希望我們選政選務可以合一那因為時間關係本席要接著請問這個公投電子連署我們採用科技的方式讓民眾方便您應該認同吧"},{"start":5983.57,"end":5983.93,"text":"公投電子連署只能用自然人憑證"},{"start":5994.624,"end":6023.501,"text":"為什麼只有一個方法聯署根據公投法的規定必須要聯署人親自簽名或者是蓋章親自簽名或者蓋章那所以你要用電子聯署的話必須是法定的他有簽名蓋章同樣效力的這個方式才可以那依據現有的這個電子簽章法的規定那這個自然人憑證自然人憑證才有這個效力"},{"start":6024.452,"end":6027.073,"text":"安全等級本席就要跟你請教你有自己網路報稅過嗎"},{"start":6052.142,"end":6054.485,"text":"網路報稅有手機報稅跟電腦報稅那他都也有申請各種憑證的方式那行之多年他沒有安全的疑慮"},{"start":6067.52,"end":6082.112,"text":"所以剛剛主委說有安全等級沒有那你看財政部對這個他都沒有任何的意見然後再加上我們的法律公投法他就有講他的提案連署方式查對等等由主管機關定之"},{"start":6083.473,"end":6107.578,"text":"但是你們在行政命令的時候寫電子連署應該要以自然人憑證其實法律沒有規定自然人憑證法律沒有規定自然人憑證所以本席這邊希望我們除了自然人憑證讓大家更方便的健保卡反而是大家比較習慣使用那我們報稅也都可以用健保卡"},{"start":6108.098,"end":6109.159,"text":"中選會不能夠用行政命令來納入健保卡這必須要牽扯到法律的修改"},{"start":6119.503,"end":6148.365,"text":"對對對不是我剛剛講的是你們的行政命令您看一下你們的行政命令法律沒有規定要用自然人憑證你們的行政命令反而限縮在自然人憑證這個反而是行政命令的問題你要去了解一下這個不用說明我接下來我接下來要特別為剩下一分多鐘我要為我們身心障礙者"},{"start":6149.466,"end":6155.628,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":6175.993,"end":6187.019,"text":"他在2020年參選的時候那他因為講話需要比較長時間所以申請延長時間當時臺北市的選委會給他延長5分鐘結果他2024年參選同樣參選申請結果不能延長所以這個選委會也說報給中選會了那中選會到現在還沒有推動修法"},{"start":6204.648,"end":6205.609,"text":"中選會開始進行修法了沒?我兩點說明"},{"start":6221.141,"end":6243.758,"text":"一個說明就是說經過兩次委員會那參著專業團體的意見之後不是沒有做處理是能夠讓他用他們那個專業的叫AAC的一個輔助的一個設施讓他能夠能夠能夠他真正的意見能夠很清楚的表達出來同時口譯的人員"},{"start":6244.638,"end":6260.953,"text":"還是他合作默契才行?還是他要表達你給他的時間身家這個在身心障礙者權利公約施行法第10條第1項有規定主席不好意思多給我30秒規定各級政府應於該法施行後5年內徵徐"},{"start":6263.335,"end":6282.176,"text":"徵詢障礙團體並且完成制定修正廢止不符公約的法規這個103年12月3日就施行5年內等於在108年就到期就應該要做修正但是中選會一直沒有修正所以本席要為障礙團體還有"},{"start":6283.638,"end":6309.133,"text":"每一個人都有參政權我們要為他們來爭取我兩點簡要的說明第一點就這個個案我們有斟酌各方的意見這不是個案未來可能還會有其他人參選未來的部分我們也說就是說我們要做進行檢討一個就是說保障這個身心障礙者他們的權益第二個也要兼顧到選舉的公平性這兼顧的情形之下我們要進行研議有這麼樣一個規劃"},{"start":6311.28,"end":6315.965,"text":"所以請你們能夠這個身心障礙者權利公約實行法你們應該要改正就是這樣謝謝"},{"start":6321.449,"end":6341.989,"text":"好 謝謝我們也是新委員的執行我們中選委主委好那我們下一位請我們的黃姐那本位報告本位執行完在我本席執行完我們就處理臨時提案臨時提案後我們就休息5分鐘好 謝謝來繼續好 謝謝"},{"start":6350.848,"end":6352.469,"text":"公投先行 選舉後行"},{"start":6377.481,"end":6403.677,"text":"第一個就是說公投是對市的投票選舉是對人的投票對人的投票當然牽涉到的複雜因素很多啦所以在102年跟105年都有總統副總統選舉選舉的不在籍投票的草案的提出都沒有辦法完成立法為什麼呢因為各方意見雜陳所以大家沒有辦法取得共識他是非常非常複雜的"},{"start":6404.737,"end":6424.831,"text":"例如說,我舉一個最簡單的例子,你說立法委員的選舉,如果要納入不再起投票的話,你碰到的第一個問題,一共76種不同的選票。這76種不同的選票,如何印製、運送、保管、開票,這個在選務上的確有它的難度存在。"},{"start":6425.712,"end":6446.188,"text":"那這個難度你要不要去克服呢當然應該要克服但是但是我們選舉的穩定是非常重要的所以我們希望從對市的比較單純的公民投票先來開始實施他實施的方式也是用我們已經有實施經驗的移轉投票的方式"},{"start":6447.009,"end":6447.149,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6462.335,"end":6479.208,"text":"以這個我們選務改革的目標大家都是一致的都是希望說可以真的保障每一個人的投票權讓大家可以用更簡便的方式來行使自己的參政權是這樣沒錯吧是的同時要兼顧到選務的穩定避免因為選務而發生一些選舉上的糾紛"},{"start":6482.891,"end":6483.311,"text":"是的,謝謝委員"},{"start":6510.08,"end":6535.548,"text":"好那再來請教一下因為大家都說現在其實不在籍的投票形式有非常多種包括通訊通訊投票代理投票提前投票特色投票所電子投票甚至是境外投票移轉投票還有用投票卡等等形式非常多種但是目前我們看到其實有有立委已經提出的版本是希望可以用境外的通訊投票"},{"start":6536.428,"end":6545.016,"text":"那我要問一下就是這個境外的通訊投票目前的風險有什麼可不可以先請主委說明一下通訊投票目前最大的疑慮跟風險為何"},{"start":6548.798,"end":6570.34,"text":"就制度面來講就是這樣子的投票方式那他的這個投票人選舉人他的自由意志是不是有得到充分的保護這點是必須要考慮的那第二點民主的投票保障投票人的秘密"},{"start":6571.281,"end":6591.172,"text":"秘密投票這是非常非常重要的一個因素所以如果採行這個通信投票尤其是海外的通信投票的話選務的困難這個先不要去提光是選舉本身他的核心的價值的部分就已經有很多的風險存在而這些風險風險怎麼樣"},{"start":6593.934,"end":6603.315,"text":"能夠防止這是就是對我們的考驗所以我們是希望能夠穩健的腳步有累積實施的經驗之後我們再逐步的採取"},{"start":6604.147,"end":6630.963,"text":"好這其實主委講得非常保守啦我一個白話文講就是說以以現在各個世界各國的例子就是有人拿說說澳洲在中國也可以投票啊但是因為澳洲在中國其實是有大使館的嘛他們可以在中國的自己的大使館裡面確保裡面是自己的工作人員並且是自己的公民能夠進到一個非常安心安全的環境之下來投票是這樣子那也有另外"},{"start":6632.404,"end":6650.578,"text":"韓國人在台灣也有海外投票所那他們一樣是韓國在台有辦事處可以在自己的辦事處這樣子的一個環境之下投票那現在問題來了如果台灣人要在中國投票可行嗎想起來就是一個笑話嘛第一我們在那裡有辦法設大使館有辦法設領事館甚至是任何辦事處嗎如果中國願意讓我們設我們再進一步來討論嗎"},{"start":6656.602,"end":6681.29,"text":"首先這個環境一定要是非常安全的再來就是技術問題就是如果我們台灣人在這個環境之下要如何確保我們能夠依據自己的意志來投票會不會有人監看難道我們是要在北京的人民大會堂下讓他亮票嗎會不會造成這樣的情況這更何況現在中國有反間諜法大家也都知道我們在這裡如果"},{"start":6681.71,"end":6681.85,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6712.15,"end":6736.346,"text":"那剛剛也有提到說如果這個票數要回報是不是有所謂的資安的疑慮他們要怎麼回報難道你從中國要回報票數難道要翻牆嗎所以怎麼想這都是非常不可行的所以這個方案我覺得就照主委的方式我們優先的先從可行的包括一轉投票因為一轉投票其實在台灣也有試行過就是我們選務人員現在就是這樣行使的對嗎"},{"start":6737.106,"end":6751.56,"text":"我們不是原地踏步啦就是說這個移轉投票是有實施的經驗但是這一次的草案是把它擴及到普遍性的任何有投票權的人你都可以申請移轉投票所以我們還是跨出去一步了是"},{"start":6752.541,"end":6759.967,"text":"所以我覺得這個從風險低到風險高的我們必須要排出優先順序所以其實我不太懂現在在這麼多種形式的不在籍投票之下偏偏要挑一個風險這麼高的偏偏要挑一個最不可行的說我們沒有做到沒有一步到位這個就是沒有在做選務改革這件事這個下表示錯的"},{"start":6777.08,"end":6794.033,"text":"那最後我還是要強調一下無論接下來要用什麼樣的形式啦我們都應該要同意說選務改革必須要有一個大前提就是不能讓這個選制變得更容易舞弊更容易從中作亂更容易降低台灣人對這個選制的信任對嗎"},{"start":6795.634,"end":6818.399,"text":"台灣的民主選舉已經累積了相當的經驗雖然有人對我們還是提出批評指教我們都虛心的聆聽但是這樣一個選制的運作有它的基礎也有它的價值存在其實我們看到國外的民主選舉雖然是民主先進的國家比如說2020年的美國總統大選也是發生了很多很多的糾紛"},{"start":6820.4,"end":6820.66,"text":"好 謝謝主委"},{"start":6848.032,"end":6848.693,"text":"高靜素美趙薇"},{"start":6868.942,"end":6890.586,"text":"主委早安1月13號總統副總統跟立法委員的選舉已經落幕了選舉之後我們辦公室有請教貴委員會你們說這次各地方的選委會沒有提報有關於原住民投票疏失的狀況然而主委您知道嗎是真的那麼順利嗎還是我們中選會你們選擇性的沒有看到為什麼為什麼我在這邊再提幾個"},{"start":6898.288,"end":6917.531,"text":"我看到的狀況我們族人跟我的澄清有不發還有漏發錯發原名選票的新聞而且是一而再再而三喔第一個狀況族人漏給立法委員選票因此呢我們有總統的有政黨的選票但是他並沒有給他原住民的選票"},{"start":6918.292,"end":6945.331,"text":"然後因為有些族人可能自己也礙於不敢問所以他投了前面幾張的選票而原住民最重要他自己的身份的選票並沒有投進去因為沒有給他選票第二個是族人漏給了立委的選票經過現場抗議之後我們的選議員從底下拿出了他應該要的選票拿出來你認為這樣的行為有沒有疏失"},{"start":6945.831,"end":6947.773,"text":"你們有沒有接到這樣的狀況如果有個案的話我們都會進行調查都會請該地的選委會來進行調查按照選務的規定你們上面這樣的狀況是不會被列入統計的"},{"start":6961.266,"end":6977.993,"text":"因為為什麼你知道嗎主委是因為投票所無法錄音錄影然後族人也沒有辦法用自己的手機錄下證據申訴所以因此不會有你這邊不會有這樣的消息但是呢這種八年來這種狀況比比皆是"},{"start":6980.354,"end":6991.581,"text":"尤其是這一次我們辦公室接到了現場非常多主任給我們反應然後還需要我們辦公室的助理打電話到地方去跟警察報案了趕快來處理這個問題所以主委你知道嗎在你們工作人員手冊裡面其實你們是有把這些狀況列入注意事項的"},{"start":7000.706,"end":7019.546,"text":"可是呢在歷次的投票當中還是有族人跟我們求救啊表示你們中選會並沒有真正的在選務上面去落實這個事情啊我當然不願意認為大家是歧視原住民的選舉歧視原住民但是這裡面的確有疏失對吧 主委"},{"start":7020.486,"end":7032.231,"text":"的確過去曾經有若干的個案被檢舉不只過去這一次我辦公室就收到了非常多的沒有如果確實有你們要怎麼處理我們也都會要求地方檢查跟檢討那每次在我們的工作的檢討請你告訴我落實一下好不好"},{"start":7044.696,"end":7045.557,"text":"一地原住民跟三地原住民選票顏色是不一樣的對不對"},{"start":7060.397,"end":7071.669,"text":"我們的選務人員也許會有疏忽但是第一點我們要特別澄清的他不會有歧視的問題我知道我說我不願意用歧視這兩個字所以你們的選務工作並沒有落實而且他也沒有政黨的問題那所以我現在告訴你請你告訴我要怎麼落實我們的這個作業的規範已經定了"},{"start":7080.818,"end":7109.414,"text":"加強訓練、宣導...您知不知道在各個地方在各個縣市裡面只要是原住民的地區都有原住民局處你知道嗎?你不知道?有原民局處嘛這是法律規定的嘛第二個在我們的教育體系裡面也有原民中心不管是原民局處或是原民中心尤其是原民中心都是我們學校的"},{"start":7110.314,"end":7139.067,"text":"老師或主任去做兼任這樣的工作你能不能在各地方的選務的時候文化敏感度提高甚至於讓這些人能夠參與選務的工作可以嗎這是我非常建議給你的具體可以去落實的部分可以嗎你們已經好多年沒有解決這個問題了我一個月之內幫我請提供我剛剛也提供了你具體落實的方式所以一個月告訴我"},{"start":7140.007,"end":7156.284,"text":"提供你們應該要改善的措施好不好接著再來就是原住民還有兩個問題沒有辦法解決一直以來你們也不重視第一個就是秘密投票103年的時候立委針對這個事情就質疑了而你們的中選會也說"},{"start":7158.181,"end":7170.073,"text":"對於原住民投票隱私權,你們向來是高度重視的。結果,過了17年,再上一屆看一下2020年的立委選舉,我們全台灣3地原住民的投票所有10557個。"},{"start":7174.477,"end":7182.499,"text":"然後在這個當中有3個人之內的投票所有4166間 佔了39.5% 然後有29間投票率是0的 佔了22.2% 你知道為什麼會這麼低嗎 第一個 3個人之內的他會被覺得他會被迫亮票"},{"start":7198.664,"end":7214.909,"text":"926件是零的因為他不願意去投票因為他也覺得他會被人家看到他投票的取向所以就是說有這麼多我們的山地原住民的族人跟平地原住民族人因為制度沒有做好而讓他們剝奪了投票的權利你覺得這該不該解決處理"},{"start":7217.39,"end":7229.821,"text":"當然這個投票秘密是非常重要的一個選舉的要件那我們也努力的希望能夠消弭這樣子的情況沒有努力啊 到現在還沒有改變啊我們看一下數據2020年總統投票率是74.9%而3D原住民的投票率68.6%比總統低了6.3%"},{"start":7237.367,"end":7240.95,"text":"平地原住民投票率62.3%比總統投票率低了12.6%再來看一下這次2024的投票率總統的投票率是71.86%三地原住民投票率是60.32%比總統投票率低了7.54%"},{"start":7254.841,"end":7279.377,"text":"平均原住民投票率58.25%比總統的投票率低的是13.61%你看到了嗎 不管是山地 平地我們的投票率都那麼低欸 主委17年來都沒有改變這個問題第一個是秘密投票的問題第二個是投票率低的問題請問要怎麼解決處理我跟委員報告 這個就是要維持要保障這個投票秘密在原住民的部分的確是有一些技術上的問題要克服"},{"start":7281.078,"end":7281.479,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":7298.261,"end":7318.787,"text":"我知道你會這麼回答我 主委我在這邊提醒你 你們這是非常消極的作為 招選會就必須要來處理解決任務這是身為一個公務人員政府應該做的事情 好不好接著下來 這個問題一個月之內也提你們的解決方案給我另外另外另外 另外你們沒有努力 對不起"},{"start":7321.108,"end":7340.772,"text":"我們看到110年包含主委有6名中選會的委員你們上任的時候針對不在籍投票你們多數是採正面的看法看一下這個都有公報上被記錄的你們是採正面的看法只是策略上你們希望是要逐步施行是不是這樣子"},{"start":7342.193,"end":7356.464,"text":"我告訴你我反對逐步施行台灣數位科技的廠商的能耐兩年之內的時間他可以做到全面的來實施所以不要再用逐步的腳步來解決這個問題來回應立法院的當然我們也會已經提案了"},{"start":7361.087,"end":7364.368,"text":"中選會就選務的再教育,包含應發、未發、應發而錯發原住民或漏發的選票情形,一個月之內提出有效做法"},{"start":7379.394,"end":7394.862,"text":"2、針對秘密投票跟原住民投票率非常低落的問題提出他的問題點提出他有效的解決方案一個月之內給我提出這兩份報告如果您願意的話我也歡迎您到本辦公室來我們好好做"},{"start":7395.262,"end":7395.482,"text":"一月之內"},{"start":7419.602,"end":7443.177,"text":"好謝謝我們高金素美我們的召委我們中選委主委主委我們就一個月到召委的辦公室提出報告好謝謝召委可以吧好請我們下一位我們丁協中委員"},{"start":7455.29,"end":7458.595,"text":"感謝主席我請你主委好請我們主委"},{"start":7463.956,"end":7472.38,"text":"現在我們共同在訓練在訓練在發聲現在我們今天在中央在我們國家的發聲恭喜委員謝謝感謝今天我們整個的議題都當這個國際級投票我也想要跟我們主委請教一下我們進行推動這個國際級投票為什麼進行推動都不會通過"},{"start":7488.394,"end":7509.385,"text":"我剛才有報告過有關總統副總統選舉的不在籍投票在182年草案有提出來185年草案也提出來但是兩個草案都沒有完成審查的程序最重要原因就是大家的意見差太多了所以必須要再進一步的凝聚共識"},{"start":7511.588,"end":7536.721,"text":"我們過去4年我們推動未行但這次很多委員都有支持我們這個不在籍投票不知道說我們主委有支持我們這個不在籍投票這尖閣大風雄都沒問題大家都得意大家都認為應該要補充但是就是說適用的範圍以及實施的方式大家有進一步一樣的看法這是必須要進一步去討論"},{"start":7538.142,"end":7538.322,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7557.165,"end":7557.485,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7581.789,"end":7596.487,"text":"公投法,我們這個修法的法案,上來跟立法院,想要請問一件,我們一做這個中選會主委,一件那麼久了,當這個全民公投的不在籍投票法,我們端蓋,怎麼會有辦法通過?"},{"start":7600.749,"end":7617.823,"text":"我向委員報告當然那個一百十年車案上過了之後那委員會也很積極地進行兩次的委員會的審查而且審查完畢了不過在進入朝野黨團協商的時候呢就卡掉了 時間還不能付就要借期不續審"},{"start":7620.985,"end":7625.108,"text":"雖然這期不續審,但是在這個會期開始後,我們把它列為優先的法案,所以我在第一時間在2月20日的時間,行政委就把原草案再送過來。比較奇怪的是,我們前一陣子的執政黨的位置比較多,四年內的各審法都"},{"start":7641.081,"end":7643.323,"text":"想通過什麼就有辦法通過什麼有什麼修法案都這樣有效率都很快就通過英雄社這個全民公投不在籍投票所有有辦法通過這是讓人比較疑問的"},{"start":7656.536,"end":7657.977,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7675.559,"end":7676.5,"text":"政府不想推動不在籍投票"},{"start":7696.215,"end":7696.716,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":7708.755,"end":7711.297,"text":"第一點這可以是一個客觀的形式境外尤其是敵對勢力對我們台灣選舉的概念是非常明顯而且這個違約是非常大"},{"start":7735.395,"end":7749.745,"text":"選制的改革不能忽視這一點這一點也請大家能夠諒解其實大家都知道啦你如果說要在中共實施這個國際投票那是絕對不可能的啦是絕對不可能的啦不只是這個東西我們考慮的我們考慮也可以考慮"},{"start":7761.232,"end":7761.692,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":7786.608,"end":7790.511,"text":"加上委員委員提出修法．說這兩晚．跟這個總統選舉．整個國際級投票的各種的一個方式．雖然台獨所有國家都已經．有實施這個國際級投票．我相信副理由我們做得到．雖然這是這個選法．主管來的"},{"start":7809.718,"end":7811.981,"text":"這是內政部的不是我們中選會來的但是我們中選會透過這個選舉的專門的單位可以請主委就這個選舉的藥夫對於一般的選舉用不在籍投票的意見"},{"start":7828.664,"end":7830.605,"text":"我們感謝丁薛忠委員我們請吳清明召委"},{"start":7861.911,"end":7867.591,"text":"好謝謝主席我們一位同仁請我們中選委主委加主委"},{"start":7872.947,"end":7890.222,"text":"主委你好主委其實我們不在即投票今天早上大家都在討論不在即投票是我記得是在第9屆我們那時候107年就是來提出不在即投票但是已經歷經了6年6年我們知道因為這是一個很大的工程我們要考慮到我們境外的問題"},{"start":7897.196,"end":7897.496,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7918.766,"end":7918.826,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7929.352,"end":7957.397,"text":"全國性公民投票電子連署這個系統你說4月10號其實外面的人也都會有疑慮什麼叫那個電子連署的系統上路4月10號你說應該要加速我們是在測試讓整個民眾來知道不然我看早上我還第一次聽到4月1號我還是訝異4月1號是到底是"},{"start":7958.337,"end":7960.858,"text":"雖然大家對台灣的選舉制度有很多指教但是在國際中間尤其是英國的經濟學人的做看社"},{"start":7986.733,"end":8001.087,"text":"2011年跟2023年所做的167個國家地區的這個這個民主的調查的評比我們台灣在全世界就選舉過程這個指標來講我們在全世界是百名台北2021年"},{"start":8007.193,"end":8009.036,"text":"臺灣的民主選舉是世界上大家最大的困難"},{"start":8024.396,"end":8050.166,"text":"這一點 英國的經濟學人所公布這四季 因為那些真的有參考的價值要給民眾了解 其實台灣過去的選舉 整個制度定下來真的非常完善 但是大家都討論說不在一起投票 也一定要說 議員要推動 我們還是要很謹慎把它規劃好"},{"start":8052.227,"end":8052.507,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":8074.554,"end":8091.667,"text":"身心障礙這個地方這是很好解決我們的各投票所我們還是不適合的我們還是來可以來做更換我們就是要便利說我們的身心障礙者他們也有公民投票權這我們也要給他保障這點是我們要去加強"},{"start":8096.351,"end":8096.511,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8118.553,"end":8139.062,"text":"在這次選舉我們所倒立的有24萬我們的工作人員其實工作人員都很辛苦但是工作人員我們也是一定要對應一定要警覺保障因為他畢竟他也是要去投票所以有很多人告訴我盡量分配投票的時候有人在工作上、時間上有很多人會釋放他的投票的權力"},{"start":8145.825,"end":8146.366,"text":"現在的制度就是 投票所的廣州人員"},{"start":8162.685,"end":8177.931,"text":"可以移轉投票但是這個移轉投票它限於同一個縣市區域同一個選期之內才可以但是新的草案都已經開放了也就是跨縣市的也可以移轉投票"},{"start":8179.912,"end":8200.262,"text":"這就是我們要告訴他們的潛意或是這個部分我們也是中選會還有一點就是說在我們中選會的業務我們過去我們說說因為我們說在網路的某些造假啦境外的造假啊我們所偵查的速度是怎樣"},{"start":8201.721,"end":8204.462,"text":"中選會的立場就是說我們及時的掌握這個錯假訊息的來源那同時立即的回應我們一定要馬上有來聽清"},{"start":8218.408,"end":8232.223,"text":"主要重點要看他造成的影響的強弱我們採取必要的反制的措施尤其是我們跟五大平台業者都有建立通報的管道及時的通報讓他們來進行處理最嚴重的就是下架這樣這我們都有在做"},{"start":8239.789,"end":8264.885,"text":"那主委我請問你本席這邊的資料在網路的信息就超過700多則那陣陣有在檢調移送檢調起訴的有幾個案件我們有大概20幾個案30個案是移送給檢調移送給這個地檢署以及這個刑事警察局來做處理"},{"start":8266.505,"end":8267.665,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":8279.369,"end":8298.13,"text":"相信每會也都有聲說因為假訊息就特別多這一點因為我們是一個超然的中選委我們還是要秉持的很公正你有檢舉我們就是要把他趕快收集趕快移送"},{"start":8299.137,"end":8310.326,"text":"我們關於選務錯假訊息的處理以及他的成果其實國際的媒體對我們相當的肯定包括美聯社都做很大很顯著的一個報導"},{"start":8311.732,"end":8318.137,"text":"因為我們都還有境外的問題啊,所以這是很麻煩的好,謝謝,謝謝主委謝謝,我們感謝吳清明召委,跟我們休訓五分鐘,五分鐘後,我們就臨時提案在這裡面拜託審判單位,有提案的人趕快去溝通一下,謝謝"},{"start":8342.809,"end":8343.81,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8379.548,"end":8405.401,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":8415.718,"end":8417.724,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8986.097,"end":8986.679,"text":"臨時提案"},{"start":8994.675,"end":9012.747,"text":"臨時提案一有鑒於臺北市選舉委員會對腦性麻痹障礙者賴中於參選立委時的延長政見發表時間申請,2020年時准許延長5分鐘,2024年卻以有科技設備輔助為由不予准許,又申請障礙團體多次公開呼籲要求政府重視障礙者資訊經用的權利。"},{"start":9014.648,"end":9035.04,"text":"再者身心障礙者權利公約施行法第10條第1項明定政府應於5年內及108年12月徵詢身心障礙團體意見並修正不符合公約之法規綜上中央選舉委員會顯然有義務修正公職人員選舉公辦證件發表會實施辦法以及其他相關法規中有關證件發表之規定原請中央選舉委員會嚴處徵詢身心障礙團體之意見"},{"start":9039.282,"end":9054.014,"text":"區分不同障礙別將障礙者之參選人政見發表時有權力申請的各種協助措施修正並明確納入法規並於兩個月內將嚴處書面報告送至立法院內政委員會提案人委員徐欣盈、徐宇貞、黃健斌、牛許廷"},{"start":9055.474,"end":9081.889,"text":"臨時提案二,現行選政選務分立．內政部系長理選政．負責修法與政策．而中央選舉委員會則長理選務．負責執行選務之現況．為建立公正獨立客觀之選舉制度．援請中央選舉委員會．就選政選務分立及合一的態度．與一個月內將嚴處情形之書面報告．送立法院內政委員會．提案人委員徐欣盈．徐宇珍．黃健斌．劉許婷選組完畢"},{"start":9084.974,"end":9103.626,"text":"我們現在先處理我們的第一案第一案一個月改為兩個月大家有沒有意見沒有照案通過那第二案也是我們的習委員所提出的那大家有沒有意見沒有就照案通過"},{"start":9106.803,"end":9108.724,"text":"主席主席各位委員還有我們請主委好請我們主委好"},{"start":9143.671,"end":9168.081,"text":"這個再次的談不再起投票是我們看這個印尼啊印尼施行不再起投票海外在台的印尼的移工都能夠海外投票在台灣投票他們實施現場投票還有郵寄投票我們看這個今年的2月14號"},{"start":9171.305,"end":9198.758,"text":"這個印尼的在台灣施行不在籍投票每個移工啊外勞在台灣啊都能夠收到這個不在籍投票的通知在台灣投票啊像這樣的一個我家的外勞照顧我媽媽89歲他已經兩次了在台灣投票"},{"start":9200.41,"end":9229.557,"text":"我每次從這個回來要回到瑞穗花蓮瑞穗投票他說你怎麼還要回來你在臺北投票就好了還是你在花蓮市投票就好了我說臺灣還沒有施行他的老公他的老公因為最近我們切工嘛他老公7個月前來7個月前來一樣在臺灣投票第一次來"},{"start":9233.305,"end":9261.423,"text":"根據外交部提供的一百零三年七月九號印尼在台灣就開始不再舉投票一百零八年十月十四號一百一十三年二月十四號台灣自稱為民主法治國的國家真的是不如印尼海外喔印尼這麼這個是不再舉投票好"},{"start":9263.305,"end":9285.502,"text":"我們很卑微的原住民組很卑微的要求原住民組不在即投票到現在沒有辦法實施當然中選會嘛常常會說內政部的主管的業務但是中選會你要強力的"},{"start":9286.926,"end":9314.435,"text":"要把原住民族在臺灣尤其是原住民的立法委員的選舉是臺澎金馬在最容易實施的對不對我們每一個投票手啊在金門馬祖澎湖我們都有投票手對不對部會期全部都有的投票手也原住民的立法委員的投票手都有啊"},{"start":9315.259,"end":9340.654,"text":"最容易實施卻到現在沒有辦法實施所以我曾經提案一直沒有辦法在立法院通過所以這個部分臺灣因為研究民主第7臺澎金馬你看這個要到蘭嶼投票這麼遠從臺北市坐火車坐飛機才能夠到蘭嶼坐船"},{"start":9343.001,"end":9370.744,"text":"你看我們原住民與非原住民投票比例立法委員從第7屆第8屆第9屆第10屆第11屆這個投票率原住民跟非原住民的差距非常非常的大所以在這樣的一個情形之下我在第9屆內政委員會審查都支持但是到了"},{"start":9372.31,"end":9374.652,"text":"主委你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":9403.288,"end":9428.467,"text":"謝謝委員的指教首先委員提到印尼在臺灣可以投票印尼在臺灣設投開票所他們可以投票其實一定要有臺灣政府全力的協助臺灣政府如果不協助他的話他就沒有辦法辦理這個投票所以可見的臺灣的政府對於不再舉投票是一個開放的態度這是第一點說明"},{"start":9429.548,"end":9452.538,"text":"那臺灣可不可以在其他的國家讓當地的僑民來投票呢可不可行呢我想困難重重了主委我今天要談的是原住民的啦對我知道只有臺灣政府只有臺灣的中選會你跟我談別的國家我是要跟你談原住民的剛剛委員有提到印尼所以我要談到臺灣政府的態度他是開放的態度這個投票通知單是"},{"start":9459.321,"end":9465.502,"text":"祝臺北印尼選舉委員會祝臺北印尼選舉委員會祝臺北印尼選舉委員會祝臺北印尼選舉委員會祝臺北印尼選舉委員會祝臺北印尼選舉委員會祝臺北印尼選舉委員會祝臺北印尼選舉委員會"},{"start":9488.806,"end":9512.953,"text":"區域立法委員來講原住民的立法委員選舉因為是全國一個選區那在選務的這個部分他是相對比較單純的但是為什麼不實施我們是希望穩健的腳步從公民投票先來實施那要推到選舉的時候也許原住民全國單一選區的部分可以列為優先的一個條件"},{"start":9516.26,"end":9533.075,"text":"在臺灣的印尼在臺灣10310834個固定的投票所今年2月14號新增加為54個固定投票所而且還增加了移動的"},{"start":9534.504,"end":9554.958,"text":"6台移動的選舉車我報告委員即便跟我們有邦交的國家我們說選舉要其他的國家我只是說我們不如啦就原住民族而言啦我們都是原住民族跟印尼啊我們都是南島民族啦南島民族"},{"start":9557.389,"end":9580.351,"text":"在臺灣我們竟然沒有辦法這個實施並沒有族群的差異性並沒有完全是一個選舉公平跟透明信賴的一個考量那我剛剛跟委員報告過其實以前就有過對話如果要跨到選舉這個領域的話也許單一選區的部分原住民的立法委員可以列為優先的考慮"},{"start":9581.209,"end":9587.836,"text":"但是你們的現在所提送到立法院的公民投票不在即投票"},{"start":9588.996,"end":9613.836,"text":"只要是總統副總統的選舉跟立法院選舉如果有公民投票的時候就不實施了我們的原住民的立委選舉一樣沒有辦法當然不能夠一式選舉兩個制度所以真的是差太多了我們趕快把這一步能夠跨出去請委員能夠支持謝謝我們鄭天才委員謝謝主委"},{"start":9616.772,"end":9620.373,"text":"那下一位我們請我們蘇清淺委員好謝謝謝謝主席那我請主委好請主委主委我終於等到了等到我可以來問問你我的榮幸謝謝委員指教"},{"start":9643.82,"end":9672.971,"text":"選舉人重複投票或冒領選票的辦法這是你們發布的就是說按指紋﹚或者是手印﹚或者是應該有主任管理員﹚或是管理員﹚或是監察員﹚要有護簽在證明人蓋章那我跟主委報告我現在還在告你我現在還在拍高雄高等法案在告你下一張"},{"start":9675.806,"end":9693.681,"text":"這是我們2022年屏東的選舉這邊當時有很多委員幫我講話那這個不是說對個人我是在對我們整個中選會你一再的講這是小瑕疵各位看到"},{"start":9694.639,"end":9719.856,"text":"很多都放棄運放棄運有1張1張這樣可以放20多個都放棄運後面都沒有人合張我們各位委員你要小心喔你將來不管你是哪一黨哪一派的你早期之前早到要死這給你衝衝你就就算了而且差距很小的時候兩三下就落選了"},{"start":9721.175,"end":9725.279,"text":"有的投票所居然蓋手印超過21%主委這是誇張了然後有人拿一個印章蓋領了二三十張然後我們要去申請全部711個投票所不公結果不准然後我們不得不就請了14位律師去用印領清澈"},{"start":9749.201,"end":9754.586,"text":"差七八十一分的引領清澈：內有出問題一百四十七的所以這個是這個你們看得下去嗎還有再最後一個"},{"start":9766.027,"end":9784.012,"text":"有投票箱裏面是跟選票一模一樣的空白就跟選票一樣喔管定會是紅色的,就紅色的那是空白這樣也可以在裏面算作選票然後有的是縣長像萬巒鄉的縣長的有蓋章但是他不給他選票沒有領到選票的也有"},{"start":9792.912,"end":9815.468,"text":"再來更糟糕的是我們各個鄉的投票就是這個叫投票所報到鄉、鎮然後再報到屏東選委會然後再轉到我們中央選委會那個電腦來來去去那一般是報上去結果就check OK就好了"},{"start":9816.807,"end":9841.67,"text":"結果有的投票手續報上去回來又改改又改又改到7次我們都查出來了那我們中選會一再講這是小瑕疵我告訴你買票一票就當選沒辦法我們這樣查查的粗暴查查的2490多票有問題所以主席"},{"start":9842.813,"end":9843.794,"text":"中華民國、臺灣省的選舉現在還有這種事情。"},{"start":9858.652,"end":9860.654,"text":"第一關就是我們自己要調查"},{"start":9883.231,"end":9896.42,"text":"我們自己要調查那有沒有外界所質疑的尤其是委員所指教的這些狀況我們要檢討第二個很重要的最重要的必須要經過發言人員這案件就已經有進入司法庭室了嘛我們這時候發言人員的室室會監督我們選舉是不是有好沒好是不是有作弊作票或者是單純的這個我們都會檢討"},{"start":9911.611,"end":9916.535,"text":"有投完票就把整個投票所關起來,鐵門拉下來,這裡面整票,整完,然後再把鐵門打開,然後再開著開票,然後我們先唱票,亮票,然後再整票,你們是倒著幹,全世界都看到那個視頻"},{"start":9934.758,"end":9936.6,"text":"我們都會用最負責的態度去進行調查"},{"start":9950.675,"end":9956.458,"text":"因為這個不能夠去傷害選舉的公正性我是沒有把那些在法院的東西拿來秀給大家看阿比公開的資料我們都會主動去了解跟檢討"},{"start":9976.297,"end":9990.982,"text":"我要再講的是我們要的Lockdown一直不給就是你的電腦從鄉到縣市然後到中央來來去去一直改一直改一直改我們一直在請法院調中選會就是不給那裡面都很貓膩"},{"start":9994.822,"end":9998.563,"text":"我感覺李平東那當然是一時期待我們現在還在高檔方案我們要一次調166票沒有換他換他如果要調他會調啦"},{"start":10013.062,"end":10015.064,"text":"一堆一個投票所20幾%是用蓋手印"},{"start":10033.02,"end":10038.863,"text":"這個需要進一步的確認你能力很強你都運動大師我面對問題我面對問題謝謝委員好謝謝我們蘇清淺委員的執行中選委蘇清淺委員所提出的我們要積極的調查那謝謝那我們下一位請我們的李坤臣委員"},{"start":10071.822,"end":10074.743,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請李主委好 請李主委主委好 這個大家都很關心 這個你們所提出來公民投票的這個不在籍投票法的法案 是的然後我發現這個當然在野黨也有提出這個不在籍投票法然後主席先 本席先請教一下這一個主委"},{"start":10097.069,"end":10114.945,"text":"這個你們送過來到立法院審查這個全國性公民投票不在籍投票法的修法重點我認為啦第一個是對式的投票嘛公民投票第二個就是說由投票權人本人親自在投票日的當日前往投票所投票"},{"start":10115.657,"end":10116.297,"text":"目前實施到現在有沒有出現什麼問題?"},{"start":10146.471,"end":10175.752,"text":"沒有出現問題沒有出現問題那這個是移轉投票就事先先登記是不是對事先要先登記事先先登記我要僑居國外的國民都是事先登記那現在這個我看有在野黨的這個立委他們有提案有兩個版本都是關於這個一般選舉的這是一般選舉的不在籍投票那我不曉得主委有沒有看過他們的這個投票這個他們那個提案的內容我有看過你認為說跟這個公民投票這個不在籍投票的最大差異在哪裡"},{"start":10176.721,"end":10194.039,"text":"我想不在即投票的這個推動牽涉到兩個層面第一個就是說你這個適用的範圍到底到什麼地方我們現在的步驟就是從對市的公民投票開始適用建設的在能夠擴及到這個選舉這是適用的範圍"},{"start":10197.242,"end":10211.894,"text":"另外一個實施的方式不在籍投票的方式有很多現在被討論的包括通訊投票特色投開票所代理投票期間投票等等等你是不是一次的到位"},{"start":10212.594,"end":10215.155,"text":"本席認為在議黨立委所提案不再投票跟目前我們要推的不再投票最大差別應該在於通訊投票"},{"start":10238.543,"end":10264.736,"text":"通訊投票其實也有很多的亂象比如美國採用通訊投票在2020年的時候他們以這個總統大選通訊投票結果有開了四天票都還開不出來通訊投票的這在台灣沒辦法發生台灣當天晚上票都一定要開出來沒有辦法讓你容許四天因為美國太大了有這個delay四天這個結果還開不出來"},{"start":10265.736,"end":10290.412,"text":"當然通訊投票也不一定會提高投票率從美國總統大選來看也不一定會提高投票率第二個郵寄的過程當中有太多機會可以作票沒辦法監票沒辦法秘密投票比如說我剛剛看到有很多委員提到說在台灣也可以做外籍人士做不在籍的通訊投票"},{"start":10291.152,"end":10303.824,"text":"我是認為啦那是因為台灣是一個民主國家我們不會去干涉你說你這個投票你要投給誰阿什麼的如果今天是在中國的話是不是有可能這個會影響到這個投票的意志影響到這個秘密投票的原則"},{"start":10304.778,"end":10324.857,"text":"在其他的國家都一樣會有風險都會有風險那我認為因為現在在黨立委在提的就是在中國希望台商或是台生希望能夠用通訊投票的方式但是我認為啦我認為這個會影響到這個投票原則第一個秘密投票第二個有可能會影響到這個投票自由意志總委認為勒這也是我們最擔心的"},{"start":10327.472,"end":10338.157,"text":"我看今天這個國安局蔡局長他有提到通訊投票第一個有資安的問題第二個會不會說這個在投票過程當中自由意志受到影響這也必須要考量的"},{"start":10339.718,"end":10345.2,"text":"主委認為通訊投票在未來的時間裡面 如果通訊投票因為他們現在人數多 要完成三讀 請問一下諸董會有沒有自然難行的地方 有沒有其他因應的策略"},{"start":10363.018,"end":10391.706,"text":"我們希望這個選制的一個變更希望大家都以非常審慎的態度來進行我們是這樣認為啦在野黨不是這麼認為嗎因為一個選制的變更重大的變革可能會影響到選務的安定那如果選務出現瑕疵出現錯誤的話重大的錯誤那這可能會影響到整個民主國家的根基所以一定要用非常負責跟審慎的態度如果他們把這個通訊投票通過怎麼辦"},{"start":10392.899,"end":10412.667,"text":"希望沒有如果可是他們現在看起來是人數是比較多如果國民黨跟民眾黨支持這個通訊投票的話有沒有資格來信一方你可以在中國設一個投胎票所嗎有辦法嗎不要說中國即便是在我們有邦交國的國家都不見得會得到協助跟支持"},{"start":10413.018,"end":10438.746,"text":"你說在美國日本也不一定那是沒有邦交國的其實有邦交國的國家我認為都會有相當的困難跟風險這我認為最大因素是在中國因為中國它不是一個民主國家你剛才提的都還是民主國家我覺得都還可以談但是在這個中國的話自由投票跟秘密投票的原則我認為被破壞掉那第二個就是說你剛才有提到說這公民投票是對人的對事的投票"},{"start":10439.406,"end":10467.775,"text":"那未來會不會這個在對人的投票一般的選舉這方面也會適用這個不在籍投票我認為是移轉投票基本的方向是沒有錯的但是一定要穩健的腳步徹底的來推動不能夠一步跨出去太大步未來是有可能不在籍投票比如說移轉投票是有可能從對事的投票到對人的投票我們就希望能夠累積實施的經驗提供給選舉不在籍投票的一個參考"},{"start":10469.155,"end":10494.821,"text":"我認為如果是對人的投票選舉對人的投票這個移轉性的投票本席是可以支持的但是如果是這種通訊投票甚至未來這個用這個電子投票我認為這個弊端都非常的多那本席在這邊我是認為說在執行上面會造成困擾也對於現在的這個投票過程秘密投票自由意志投票都會受到影響"},{"start":10496.121,"end":10497.001,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":10532.302,"end":10532.683,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10553.283,"end":10573.079,"text":"這一次我們碰到最大的一個風險就是境外屆選的挑戰選務上呢在選務上是有一些瑕疵出現屆選應該不是你的問題選務上面的問題我們要回應第一個我想我們台灣民眾黨在我們選舉的之後其實我們有相關的監票人員他們在"},{"start":10580.385,"end":10604.411,"text":"投票當天開票當天通報了將近上千次的異常狀況然後我們也整理出了相關的異常狀況也正式的向中選會提出檢舉那各個投開票所每一個投開票所的異常狀況都標示的很清楚有幾個狀況我這邊跟主委我想你也看到了但是我想現在有沒有改善第一個領票數跟得票數有不符的情況"},{"start":10606.96,"end":10608.301,"text":"投票數大於領票數"},{"start":10621.054,"end":10647.68,"text":"就是他們沒有確實的在清點所謂的領票數對嗎清點的過程裡面可能會有一些疏失所以人民會看到這種消息你會覺得他不是瑕疵嗎他當場會被指證他當場會被糾正以及也就是說我們的相關的選務人員對於相關的這些程序並不是那麼了解所以產生發生這種狀況他最大的問題就是在開票之前他沒有公佈領票數"},{"start":10648.92,"end":10673.046,"text":"最後出來投的票比領票數還多就是因為沒有清點完成就開始開票這是第一個問題主委 這個很多啊 非常多啊這個如果不能解決的話你的公信力一樣是有問題啊第三個很嚴重的就是主委看到這次檢舉很多影片嘛先整票再唱票嚴重不嚴重"},{"start":10673.986,"end":10674.527,"text":"哪一張票念一張"},{"start":10691.877,"end":10696.061,"text":"剪票剪票剪票剪票剪票剪票剪票剪票"},{"start":10707.593,"end":10710.615,"text":"主任管理員必須要負起這個責任所以有沒有糾正有沒有檢討將來還會不會再發生2024了這一次總統大選再發生你不可能之前沒檢討過3第5聲照樣不聽"},{"start":10731.431,"end":10755.241,"text":"第4種投開票的報告單填寫不實很多內容還算錯連數學都不會加這種狀況會讓人民對選會機關的公信力產生很大的這極少數的個案我們沒有辦法保證所以要改進要改進要改進沒有問題你連數學都不好現場都算不清楚民眾拿出來看的就是"},{"start":10756.161,"end":10756.862,"text":"投票時可不可以錄影"},{"start":10777.262,"end":10798.705,"text":"但是不是毫無限制的還是有一些依照規定他在觀眾型不要影響到開票他就可以錄影對吧請你大聲的跟人民說可以錄影不要干擾到開票行動原則上是可以錄影但是不能夠違背相關的規定所以錄影在開票過程是沒有違法的也不應該被警察趕走對吧"},{"start":10799.885,"end":10801.106,"text":"我所瞭解的好像只有單獨的個案"},{"start":10820.917,"end":10848.425,"text":"單獨的個案但是影片都交給你們了表示民眾都檢舉得到他就不會只是單純他在開票前他就應該封條給大家看完之後才能開始用他們連封條都不上是怎麼回事我們的這個資料就是只有一個單獨的個案因為這邊就有七八件我們都送給你們麻煩你們也看一下吧我們至少照片上面在大概有七八個投開票所都有這個問題"},{"start":10850.646,"end":10855.75,"text":"主委 其實我希望的是你給我一個2024年總統大選的檢討跟精進改善報告吧剛剛講的這些瑕疵有多少 檢討了沒有 怎麼做 將來要怎麼改走到有一個完整的預配過黨團所提供的這份資料 一共有6個類型 28個案例"},{"start":10870.74,"end":10872.362,"text":"最後就是剛剛講的不再投票我想大家不用再爭執"},{"start":10890.036,"end":10918.743,"text":"臺灣是一個先進的國家全世界的科技大概臺灣最先進但是我們現在政府對於所謂的投票你們在110年做過一個民意調查其實大部分的人都是沒有去投票的原因我很清楚第一個第一就是要上班要工作沒有空沒時間這兩個是最多的另外投票所距離太遠返鄉成本太高"},{"start":10919.503,"end":10920.124,"text":"臺灣社會科技大國"},{"start":10941.323,"end":10941.903,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":10957.43,"end":10976.903,"text":"確定是本人的意願一樣可以像移轉投票號的方式來進行所謂的線上投票用嚴格的資訊控管包括我們現在政府既然接受自然人憑證沒有道理不接受自然人憑證來投票這個是以臺灣我們的科技絕對不會比愛沙尼亞差"},{"start":10979.084,"end":10992.008,"text":"我們對於關於這些問題的討論我相信委員也能夠掌握到了所以我們意思是說總要往前走啦現在是2024年啦你的中選會成立的時候是1980年啦44年過去了我們還是做從這次總統大選你會看到我們做的事情是跟44年前一樣做的事跟44年前還是一樣"},{"start":11006.212,"end":11026.062,"text":"所以從110年到現在都沒有辦法在立法院裡面完成這第一步的立法程序想出方法盡量想出方法我講這個第一先請你給我報告第二個電子認證可能是你們擔心的不再一起投票的其中一個解方以上好謝謝委員好謝謝我們黃沙釵委員那下一位我們請侯孟楷委員好謝謝"},{"start":11037.955,"end":11040.382,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請李晉勇主委好請主委"},{"start":11046.698,"end":11068.465,"text":"委員好主委好主委今天本席看了一下業務報告那剛剛其實很多委員都有在詢問關於說這一次1月13號的總統跟立委選舉那我就比較直接明白想請教業務報告裡面我最希望看到的一個數據並沒有在裡面就1月13號到底這次大選有多少起的這個爭議事件以及我們的處理狀況以及後續的處理"},{"start":11070.646,"end":11087.205,"text":"有沒有做一個統計第一個就是在這個首長信箱裡面是有一些檢舉或者是投訴的案子那這些案子我們都交給地方的選委會受理多少以及現在處理的狀況還有這個瑕疵的一個部分"},{"start":11088.386,"end":11098.873,"text":"昨天的報告其實最主要國人一定是最關心的地方的選委會還陸續的在查證之中還在查證會告一個段落之後把階段性的一個統計資料再送給委員都已經第二屆我們第11屆的立法委員都已經上任都在做質詢了然後還有"},{"start":11108.92,"end":11129.949,"text":"總統有可能520都要就職了那我們到底1月13號這一次選舉有多少個投拍票所有瑕疵有任何剛剛我也提到啊就有先整票再唱票那這些事情整理統計數據有沒有影響最後的選舉結果怎麼在今天的報告都沒有"},{"start":11130.669,"end":11146.637,"text":"可以肯定的是沒有影響選舉的結果沒有影響選舉結果不然我們也不會在這邊但重點在於是說你的數據在哪裡嗎你的結案我們講說結案報告你要講說你的這個中選會最重要辦理的過去這兩年一個是九合一選舉一個是1月13號2024年的總統立委大選啊"},{"start":11151.194,"end":11172.32,"text":"主委你認為這個資料這麼重要本來認為非常重要是我們都有在處理是那什麼時候這個資料會出來所謂的結案報告的部分現在有沒有手邊有沒有資料在這一次1月13號到底有多少瑕疵的事件目前沒有這方面的統計也沒有但是有資料在進行有案例在進行主委你不會覺得"},{"start":11173.783,"end":11201.71,"text":"主委你那麼有經驗各選委會在你講第一時間1月13號就已經通報了啊不是嗎我跟委員報告就是我們那不然很多剛剛委員就提到是說有整票的你也回答也講說我有看過那個影片啊那個不是啦沒有關係啊既然你都有那麼底氣講說那個不是瑕疵或說那個沒有關係啊怎麼沒有整理一份資料給大家來確認因為陸續的地方你又講說陸續再確認"},{"start":11203.89,"end":11217.384,"text":"1月13號到現在幾個月了兩國會這樣因為有一些檢舉的案件投訴的案件他陸續進來他陸續進來的時候我們就所以主委會不會覺得這樣慢半拍不只半拍啊好幾拍我們的檢討並沒有做好幾拍啊"},{"start":11221.228,"end":11222.569,"text":"本席提出第一個要請中選會好好的"},{"start":11242.405,"end":11242.625,"text":"負責任"},{"start":11265.305,"end":11285.295,"text":"本席今天準備很多資料跟你討論不在籍投票的部分本席也看到是說我們行政院這邊現在有送出院版的不在籍投票你們現在是希望是說用移轉投票以及希望是說用公投先行我們先請教剛剛你一直講到穩健、踏實"},{"start":11286.69,"end":11311.921,"text":"但是說實在話我們一直質疑的我們質詢的是說其實早就應該要動作往前了因為有太多的國家都已經在施行移轉投票通訊投票或者是這個對人的選舉的投票你先看一下你第22頁的報告我也看到我們很多委員參加了世界選舉機關協會"},{"start":11314.738,"end":11343.694,"text":"有去泰國、曼谷、亞洲民主跟選舉國際會議,泰國有沒有不在己投票?泰國有沒有不在己投票?據我了解應該有啦。有,泰國有實施的這個...泰國有不在己投票,泰國有對人的選舉的不在己投票。實施的方式都有不同的程度。泰國有沒有不在己投票?有,而且他是對人的選舉也不在己投票。台灣也有不在己投票。"},{"start":11344.654,"end":11368.351,"text":"印度有沒有不在籍投票台灣也有不在籍投票台灣有沒有全民的不在籍投票你如果說要做這樣子的文字遊戲所以全民的不在籍投票是希望貴運會能夠支持我們這個草案我們對人啊我現在講沒有錯我現在跟你講是說五輪去參加當選每一個國家裡面每一個國家早就已經施行很久的對人的不在籍的投票"},{"start":11369.031,"end":11390.972,"text":"那結果我們現在還是要講說我們要穩健是我們已經落後很多了然後你現在還在講穩健我覺得這根本就是不想做事啊當為而不作為我們講公務人員在一個機關上面你可能都會有下台的一天但是你應該當為不作為第10屆的時候4年到底有沒有規劃"},{"start":11392.553,"end":11415.82,"text":"當時疫情的期間我們認為是說疫情是最好可以來推動不管是通訊投票不管是不在意投票應該要來公開願意施行那時候市民不做現在第11屆了看到了這個立法院新的民意新的國會出來了才拿出一個簡化版矮化版簡易版簡破版陽春版的行政院的版本這不是合得不在意投票草案"},{"start":11418.081,"end":11422.883,"text":"在歷史上是不是有兩次當一道大願的作為?您任內有提過任何一次嗎?您任內本席講到不再舉投票就是在歷史上有兩次的公投本席現在要講的"},{"start":11440.348,"end":11461.894,"text":"本席現在要講的就是我們在要求在所謂的移轉所謂的對人的不在籍投票當我們也看到我們的委員有去泰國參加有去印度參加有去韓國參加而這幾個國家都已經早就實施了全國性的移轉的"},{"start":11464.215,"end":11485.95,"text":"請問我們的選舉程序在經濟學人報的評比亞洲第一名都比他們好所以你現在是在貶低他們這些國家嗎?我突然嚇到了我們中總會的主委這樣子是要貶低其他國家我們不要對他們絕對沒有喪失信心但是我想問的是他們這樣子用不在一起投票有沒有喪失公平性?你才回答這一點"},{"start":11486.75,"end":11487.23,"text":"本席很認真的"},{"start":11508.123,"end":11508.483,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11538.283,"end":11549.256,"text":"像志祺縣市長也都應該要來推動但是縣市長是另外的一個選舉罷免法可是至少在總統副總統的選舉罷免法任內我們都應該要針對這個因為他跟公投的選舉人數跟範圍其實是一致的"},{"start":11555.603,"end":11578.184,"text":"我們希望在這方面討論要顧及到選舉競爭的公平性當然選舉公平性所以說本席才會一直強調轉移投票的信賴性公平性以及你剛剛也講了不管是針對現在選務人員其實都已經在施行了只是為什麼戰略版拿出來還是只有針對公投沒有針對全國性的總統大選"},{"start":11580.186,"end":11606.373,"text":"這一點本席就指引如果這個草案能夠得到大院的支持通過的話我們會把實施的經驗來提供給進一步討論選舉不在集團不能一起推動嗎不能一起推動嗎我們希望穩健的腳步因為選務的考量主委我們已經浪費太多的時間了我覺得這一點就是公務員在一個位置上面當作為不作為"},{"start":11607.313,"end":11614.558,"text":"我們也都希望大家能夠勇於表達自己的主張最重要的是公平從頭到尾都跟討論是移轉投票我們要的是讓大家都能夠在投票的當天能夠表達自己的意志"},{"start":11623.024,"end":11629.825,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":11655.646,"end":11658.162,"text":"主席有請主委好請主委"},{"start":11664.567,"end":11687.724,"text":"主委青年的投票率往往不及其他年齡層族群在台灣民主投票結構性缺席許多青年因為求學工作離開了家鄉工作的忙碌課業的繁重讓他們趕不上末班車或可能無力負擔高額票價錯過了回家投票的機會這句話你認同嗎"},{"start":11690.065,"end":11697.45,"text":"不會是單一的因素你知道這句話誰說的嗎你知道這句話誰說的嗎我告訴你賴清德總統當選了2024年沒有關係啦剛剛前面講很多不在籍投票你都一直在講說我們先從公投開始我們先這個穩健實施我想請問你中選會組織法的那個第一條是什麼"},{"start":11717.691,"end":11737.857,"text":"要貫徹憲法保障人民參政權吧沒錯吧是的你結果我們的青年學子因為趕不上末班車無力負擔高額票價他就錯過了選舉你跟我講說只因為你要穩健那我只看到是立法的怠惰我看到是你執行不力啊"},{"start":11738.493,"end":11752.468,"text":"我可以回答一下嗎請保障整個選舉過程的穩定是保護更多絕大部分選民的投票的權益非常贊成來我再請教你每逢公職人員選舉"},{"start":11754.23,"end":11781.01,"text":"我國即產生近百分之二十一的返鄉人口造成舟車勞頓的社會成本降低民眾投票意願這對我國建區成熟的民主體制有損害開放不在籍投票是時勢所需符合國際潮流全球先進民主國家英美德法日韓八十多國已開放不在籍投票我國為華人地區民主制度典範英與國際潮流接軌你認不認同這句話"},{"start":11782.341,"end":11804.798,"text":"我基本上這個方向是認同的但是後面一段就是說有關於實施的範圍以及實施的方式來來來我待會一天講實施範圍不要緊張啦你認同了嘛這是羅志正賴瑞隆吳啟明2016年的修法提案我就想要跟主委講一件事情"},{"start":11805.953,"end":11811.256,"text":"我們中選會成立了40年民進黨執政也8年你幹中選會主委多久了?你幹中選會主委多久了?將近6年匆匆時光40年8年6年多少賴清德口中的青年學子就失去了參政權的權利啊憲政的權利只願你一句穩健你就要剝奪嗎?"},{"start":11832.126,"end":11846.978,"text":"合理對他們公平嗎102年105年都有相關的草案提出來沒有關係我告訴你我說過兩件事立法怠惰跟執行現在立法院終於不願意怠惰可是你就推給我說我要穩健"},{"start":11848.439,"end":11868.738,"text":"那不就代表你沒有執行能力嗎我們為了推動不在籍投票所以我們把這個上一個上一屆沒有完成的這個草案審查我們在這一屆馬上就提出來你大聲告訴我你提出來的是我們選舉的不在籍投票還是公民投票的不在籍投票"},{"start":11869.298,"end":11881.935,"text":"我很穩健的態度告訴我哪一個就是公民投票不佔據投票好沒關係這就是我想要請教你下一個問題"},{"start":11883.322,"end":11911.357,"text":"我這邊直接公開表態啦我支持你啦我支持要通過公民投票不在籍投票謝謝秦委員大力但是跟選舉的不在籍投票根本不衝突我直接問你請問公投什麼時候下一次公投是什麼時候今年的8月應該到目前為止看案件進來的這個時程大概來不及了來不及明年呢明年吧明年吧明年吧"},{"start":11913.171,"end":11937.792,"text":"那你跟我講明年現在來講你說時程來不及啊那你就跟我講一直是你的所以明年也不可能然後呢後年也沒有選我公投年大後年也不可能啊你的意思是這樣我們都做好準備包括電子聯署我們都做好準備主委你露餡了你知道嗎你露餡了你知道嗎你跟我講明年來不及啊我主委明年來不來得及公投"},{"start":11940.711,"end":11958.688,"text":"要看他連署的進度啦你就跟我來不來得及嘛來不及你就騙大家嘛有空間啦有空間有空間謝謝你你有空間明年把公投的不在籍投票把它好好地做好有沒有信心如果有好不好信心請大院支持有信心你明年就累積經驗"},{"start":11960.29,"end":11988.225,"text":"你2026年你難道不能就開始做明年2025年的經驗難道2026年的選舉不在即投票來實施嗎?為什麼你就沒有信心了?我就跟你講我們今天在野黨都已經提出不在即投票大院就是準備要往這方向走可是今天你身為中選會的主管機關主委"},{"start":11989.571,"end":11995.224,"text":"我們很抱歉啦!所以我不可以這樣講啦!你真的沒有我們賴清德總統的同理心啦!"},{"start":11996.687,"end":12023.872,"text":"你想想看你學生時代你就講講賴清德講的一番我更希望我更在乎委員自己的意見我跟你講我跟立憲跟賴清德一樣啊賴清德這個意見就是我的意見啊我支持賴清德總統當選人啊可是我懷疑你沒有賴清德跟我的同理心啊今天只因為你今天虛擬的一個明年也不一定會不會做的公投的不在即你剛剛都講說盡量努力啦我相信你啦"},{"start":12024.792,"end":12033.236,"text":"結果你要黨為我們後面2026、2028年的選舉的不在意投票 抱歉 我覺得你沒有同意心 以上好 謝謝我們羅志祥委員那下一位請我們陳培宜委員這次信好 謝謝主席 那有請主委好 請主委"},{"start":12061.284,"end":12075.795,"text":"主委,今年在選舉前發生一些事情我相信主委您剛剛有說到有相關的案例也在整理了跟主委再次確定1月13號投票當天有部分的家長帶6歲以下的小孩進入投票所然後被一些工作人員選務人員還有駐警拒絕"},{"start":12078.417,"end":12103.287,"text":"這個事件有非常非常多的案例目前我們收到的案例之前我們在記者會的時候說是17個可是我們相信絕對遠超過這17個那目前對於相關的辦法不知道主委您知不知道類似的新聞事件首先我必須要說明是有這方面的檢舉但是並沒有那麼多有些檢舉我們每一個案子都要進行調查事實上是跟事實有一些出入"},{"start":12103.587,"end":12107.349,"text":"而同期少年福利權益保障法還有公職人員選舉罷免法裡面確實都有相關的規定但是主委您剛剛也說了相關的教育訓練是不是不足我們來陪您確認一下其實這一張投影片"},{"start":12130.964,"end":12131.024,"text":"中選會2022年臉書粉絲專頁"},{"start":12147.705,"end":12154.608,"text":"主委您覺得除了是相關教育訓練的不足到底我們還可以做哪些事情希望在後續的選舉不要再發生類似的事情主委您的看法是什麼"},{"start":12166.994,"end":12196.096,"text":"不管怎麼樣這總是對於這個選務作業是大概沒有完全的掌握跟了解這個我們必須要去檢討的那對於各地方這麼多選務投開票所到底要怎麼樣可以落實相關教育訓練假設到下一次大選之前其實我們還有一些時間我們可能有將近兩年的時間主委您有什麼規劃跟看法第一個就是不斷的透過教育訓練來加強大家的印象這是第一個第二個"},{"start":12196.676,"end":12211.945,"text":"我們會加強主任管理員對於選舉投開票所的這個管理要他必須要盡到責任提醒糾正現場一發現了馬上必須要禁止要糾正第三個對於還是再犯的這個實在是很不應該"},{"start":12212.685,"end":12230.104,"text":"所謂的再犯指的是說所謂的再犯指的是同一個選務人員他可能在不不不就是整個選舉事務你不斷的發生你不斷的發生我們就是不斷的糾正你為什麼你還是沒有辦法做到呢這個當然在獎程的部分我們必須要檢討"},{"start":12231.618,"end":12250.99,"text":"這個獎程的部分因為說實話其實一整天的工作其實相關的這個加班費也不是真的那麼多啦我想主委你也很清楚可是如果把這個懲罰條例放進來之後你真的覺得會不會就因此減少了選務人員參與的熱情跟可能性所以我們當然也支持有相對應的獎程可是我覺得更重要應該是主委您剛剛說的教育訓練辦法"},{"start":12253.971,"end":12282.603,"text":"教育訓練到底有沒有落實每一個投開票所的主委他們到底怎麼看待這件事情我覺得這裡面很重要是牽扯到一般的大人到底怎麼看待小孩進入投開票所這件事情我覺得這個態度跟這個視角是不是可以主委請主委在這邊做更清楚的宣示因為我們也很好奇到底相關教育訓練課程內容是什麼相關手冊相關的教案到底是如何讓這邊選務人員清楚的真的有得到這個概念主委可不可以請您說明一下"},{"start":12283.203,"end":12301.278,"text":"我們有這個選務工作人員執行業務的一個手冊這也是我們最主要的教育訓練的一個教材這個教材可以對外公開嗎這個在我們的網站上都可以找到那第二個為了淺顯易懂所以我們有這個動畫"},{"start":12304.501,"end":12305.502,"text":"選務人員的教育訓練是單獨的舉辦但是我們選務單位都會派人去提供他們一些資訊"},{"start":12328.502,"end":12332.285,"text":"所以這個部分中選會應該也很積極在進行嘛當然我知道是分開舉辦的啦可是有沒有很再一再強調因為我覺得這件事情一旦開始宣導而且我們也都知道嘛很多投票的限制如果可以把小孩帶進去沒有造成投開票所的困擾我覺得這個事情應該因為已經入法了嘛"},{"start":12350.401,"end":12350.701,"text":"有幾個個案是溝通的問題我們的選務人員很熱心"},{"start":12368.831,"end":12370.713,"text":"目前我們可能的辦法或是您的看法是什麼?"},{"start":12384.731,"end":12393.236,"text":"我們這個受理這個案子的地方選委會已經深切的檢討了是他們原來的確是有這麼一個規定是那後來他們也深切的檢討除了對當事人表示歉意之外我們相關的這個辦法的修正設施的補強這都做了以後不會再發生這個事所以除了這個案例的這個縣市之外其他的縣市也如同主委您說的通了補強或宣誓"},{"start":12413.886,"end":12430.491,"text":"通用那這部分就是要拜託中選會持續把相關的教育訓練還有該補強的地方還有該宣示的部分我覺得讓各地的選委會都非常清楚的知道我們真的不希望在下一次大選的時候再看到這樣子對孩童或是對相關的候選人不友善"},{"start":12430.871,"end":12431.451,"text":"請主委做明確宣示"},{"start":12460.173,"end":12461.214,"text":"臨德虎臨德虎不在陳冠廷委員"},{"start":12492.185,"end":12501.853,"text":"本期補充一下我們今天中午就不休息繼續處理好謝謝謝謝我們請主委好請主委"},{"start":12507.335,"end":12535.354,"text":"委員好 主委好對 這個 剛才其實有很多委員都一直提到不在籍投票的部分是但是我們對於不在籍投票其實是有一些擔憂的因為在這一次的選戰後選戰後其實有很多過去我們行之有年的選舉模式但是反而會成為短影音上面不斷傳播說好像哪邊有問題那哪邊有些不信任感所以儘管行之有年的這種傳統投票方式"},{"start":12535.854,"end":12548.803,"text":"包含開票其實台灣的開票的時間原則上在3個小時4個小時就大概都快要開完了所以這種狀況之下任何的沒有信任度的不在籍投票Joy你會不會有一些擔心"},{"start":12550.578,"end":12579.466,"text":"其實臺灣的這個選制在國際間的評價是非常高的我剛剛也特別舉例了英國經濟學人周刊在2021年2023年兩次的全世界的這個民主指數的評比我們一次是第8名一次是第10名在亞洲兩次都是第一名其中有一個評比的指標就是選舉的程序我們是拿到10分兩次都拿到10分"},{"start":12580.186,"end":12602.214,"text":"所以我們的選舉的制度是相當的穩健的需要國際高度的評價但是從歷次的選舉我先講一下我覺得您剛才說的沒錯沒有壞掉的東西就不要再去擅自更動因為這可能會導致性能度的降低所以過去這二三十年來從1996年我們首次民選到現在"},{"start":12605.075,"end":12619.508,"text":"儘管有幾次是差距非常的小但是基本上我們的選舉都能夠在公平公正的這種狀況而且是透明的狀況之下來去進行那也得到了很多國際上面的肯定所以我還是認為說"},{"start":12620.729,"end":12643.98,"text":"這種不在一起投票要經過全面性的討論不是只有我們這個立法院而已喔各種的公聽會各種的這種相關的平台都必須要全部展開得到共識之後才來做討論會比較完善一點特別是在中國地區我必須要再強調一下齁在中國地區我國國民在中國地區如果要用通訊投票如果要用電子投票"},{"start":12644.54,"end":12668.569,"text":"在一個可以隨意干預公民隱私權的國家來做這件事情的話我覺得對我們的民主制度反而是一種傷害所以就算是不在即投票對於中國地區的部分我們更加要嚴謹我必須再次強調電子也好或者是透過郵件通訊也好中國都有辦法來進行干涉來進行控制所以這個部分我還是希望主委能夠"},{"start":12669.97,"end":12690.608,"text":"針對這個部分來進行更完整的研究把這個研究報告呈現給國民告訴國民說為什麼在中國地區做這種事情的話有可能會被干預這個部分可不可以這個結束之後給我們一些相關的說明報告是的報告委員就是說我們絕對不抗拒所謂不再提投票因為它是保障人民的這個選舉權"},{"start":12691.892,"end":12710.68,"text":"但是維持一個選舉的穩定這是一個國家民主建設的一個基礎選制的一個重大的變革千萬不要去動搖到這個根本所以我們是採取比較穩健的次第推動方式等到有共識之後再推行"},{"start":12711.32,"end":12712.442,"text":"介線已經越來越模糊了所謂的境外借選"},{"start":12727.483,"end":12727.643,"text":"選舉資訊混淆"},{"start":12744.671,"end":12761.522,"text":"在這一次的選舉的時候當然我們看到就是除了是這種攻擊性的文宣這本來就是選戰的一部分再來就是混淆式的文宣看板跟步調這攻擊性的文宣我認為這是選舉的常態對於你的政策的不同意等等這本來就應該有但是"},{"start":12762.763,"end":12777.436,"text":"現在我看到在上次的選舉中有一些被選舉人就是這個候選人他自己印製的投票建議單會故意把自己的圖像置入別的政黨的圖像意圖混淆你認為這樣合適嗎"},{"start":12780.942,"end":12783.384,"text":"藝圖造成混淆．彼方說．彼方說．彼方說他是A大黨跟B大黨的這個黨首．黨首就是黨的主席"},{"start":12801.601,"end":12829.883,"text":"來造成合成然後用大肆的來去宣傳來大肆的放入各個選民的信箱包含這一個除了電子信箱之外一般的信箱還有大型的這個廣告板旗幟那這是一個很重要的一個問題我必須要提到因為他們是要混淆的方式也就是說他不認識這一個人但是他看到說他跟另外一個黨的黨主席黨首放在一起他誣誣以為他被另外一個黨提名所以我們現在講的不是個案"},{"start":12830.643,"end":12836.994,"text":"是通案那特別是許多不具政黨推薦的無黨籍候選人有常常這樣的狀況出現"},{"start":12838.769,"end":12862.492,"text":"那當然我們遇到這樣的問題的話許多的會選就立刻來反映給選委會那選委會說那通知拆除但是問題是等你拆除完的時候選舉已經結束這樣的問題要怎麼處理我想這個相關的行政的規範形式的這個處罰都法治上應該都沒有問題所以如果有違反相關規定的話我們在接受到這個檢舉的時候我們就會立即來處理"},{"start":12864.093,"end":12864.754,"text":"提出如何精進反應"},{"start":12880.473,"end":12906.741,"text":"不是7天內處理不是3天內處理24小時還是幾個時限必須要給我們一個更清楚的一個方案我必須要再強調它是全面性的混淆不是單一選舉區是數個選舉區這是一個非常嚴肅的問題境外勢力也可以透過這樣的方式來去混淆我們的支持者叫違反他們意圖的投票混淆戰是非常重要的這個我希望主委能夠提出相關的檢討再次感謝"},{"start":12907.662,"end":12912.614,"text":"檢討沒有問題但是有關於時效的部分恐怕透過司法的途徑會比較有效一點對 謝謝"},{"start":12920.503,"end":12941.646,"text":"好謝謝我們陳冠廷委員的發言現在我們請林柱英林柱英林柱英委員不在那請我們下一位曾振銓曾振銓曾振銓好不在那我們下一位羅廷瑋"},{"start":12943.326,"end":12950.568,"text":"羅廷偉羅廷偉委員不在那我們請張祺凱張祺凱委員好謝謝好謝謝主席有請中選會李志偉好請主委你好"},{"start":12973.6,"end":12983.431,"text":"主委你好我今天要請教你這個關於總統副總統選舉霸年法條文這個條文我就不要練了你比我熟悉太多了來我們看一下這個條文廣播電視這個條文我不用特別練了我現在在請問的是"},{"start":12992.523,"end":13003.53,"text":"這段時間的打算 總統的打算 電視台關於新聞報導跟政論節目 有做到公正跟公平嗎 有公正 有公平嗎"},{"start":13006.327,"end":13031.848,"text":"我們是有接受到一些個案的檢舉或者是相關機關的移送但是這些移送的案子很重要的一點就是中選會管轄的部分只是在特定的時段裡面選舉公告發布之後到投票之前這段時間裡面才是我們管轄的範圍那很多案例是超出這個範圍所以我們就沒有辦法處理了"},{"start":13032.549,"end":13056.312,"text":"那在這個範圍之內還是有一些檢舉有一些檢舉的個案我們瞭解的結果到目前為止還沒有裁罰的案子還沒有裁罰的案子還沒有裁罰是是我們是民眾黨跟這個黃國昌拒函在1月9號就拒函送到中選會跟NCC嘛那個會先給地方的選委會來進行調查"},{"start":13057.893,"end":13064.816,"text":"地方選委會進行調查不是我抱歉 主委抱歉 不是第一件事喔現在說的 來我來看一下 來來我們看一下 主委我們看一下 來這是這邊打算的是呢 一月初三到一月初五 按時六點到八點新聞的統計齁 我們監看跟統計的兩個台 主委你這樣看得到嗎抱歉 太好了"},{"start":13080.476,"end":13098.694,"text":"我簡單說一下,我們有一個叫活活台,一個叫打手台,我們先看一個,你可能比較好,我念不在聽有一個台,我們現在監看給統計的,一位妻子和妻子的暗示,他報導柯營配只有一則,這三天裡面只有一則負面的,然後呢,他賴"},{"start":13103.983,"end":13113.488,"text":"賴清德跟蕭美琴賴蕭珮三則有正面的兩則負面的一則國民黨的胡柯珮八則全部都是正面的有違反我們的總統副總統選舉發言法嗎"},{"start":13126.022,"end":13139.016,"text":"我跟委員報告齁這出力的程序上齁我們還是先交給這個相關的地方選委會來進行了解調查之後他會把他調查的結果再送回來給中選會中選會才去做審議"},{"start":13141.4,"end":13144.403,"text":"臺北市選委會臺北市選委會到目前沒有回覆你這邊還沒有回覆給我們我看民眾黨"},{"start":13168.106,"end":13191.335,"text":"去檢舉函是﹐送到NCC跟中選會是以為這夠捏今天已經三這個還必須要經過當事人陳述意見的這個程序所以時間會在我拖啦這個我們再追一下我們再追一下 再追一下好不好現在剩兩部分我本來是想問你今天如果沒有你差不多一天半兩天給我阿你現在說前陣子還有一個行程所以就是那你要幫我去"},{"start":13193.223,"end":13202.327,"text":"很清楚,叫臺北選委會速度要快,包括當事人陳述的機會那我們看下一個問題,我知道選務人員是很辛苦的啦,我們這個選務機構,整個選務的辦理在國際上是有名的,可是"},{"start":13224.089,"end":13247.02,"text":"這裡面至少我們看到有一些是比較明顯的你領票數跟總投票數不符還有沒有依照開票前就公告這個領票數還有整票再唱票沒有依照規定去主張去唱票的還有投開票手上報告報告表填寫輸入或者記錄不值連最離譜第6項有個炮鬼的底部竟然都沒有調風"},{"start":13248.183,"end":13249.743,"text":"這有檢討過嗎?要怎麼報告?第一點就感謝整團有收集了大概28個個案分成6種行為太陽送給我們我們對於每一個個案都要求地方選委會一定要認真去調查調查結果再送給我們"},{"start":13267.848,"end":13278.196,"text":"那大概有4個案子可能跟事實有一點出乎擔心這6種態樣的確是存在的啦所以這點我感謝各位黨團給我們的機構那我們針對這些選務的缺失都會虛心的檢討去提出精進的這個方案來希望這個選務的缺失能夠盡可能的不要發生我不敢說百分之百因為幾乎沒那麼大"},{"start":13296.431,"end":13324.864,"text":"就是說我們有24萬的這個選務工作人員雖然我們一再的強調透過這個教育訓練透過加強這個選務的主任管理員他們的責任但是很遺憾的還是會有一些個案發生對啦選務人員這個辛苦這個辛苦然後數字是很高這個我們是肯定的我們知道這一直都是一個我也知道就是說這可能是比較少數這算是小吃啦這真的是一直都是我們選務上一個痛對對所以我現在就拜託你說你速度可能還是要快一點點啦"},{"start":13325.424,"end":13325.684,"text":"謝謝張七開委員的資訊"},{"start":13351.164,"end":13353.566,"text":"楊瓊英委員主席"},{"start":13373.923,"end":13388.099,"text":"不再期投票,憲法賦予人民的參政權,保障人民投票權是民主社會重中之重,也是我們民主政府首要的任務之一。"},{"start":13390.54,"end":13413.106,"text":"方向一致,臺灣約有200萬人在異地工作或在外地求學需要不在籍投票的制度保障權力,降低投票成本且不在籍投票已經是民主的趨勢,包括美國、日本"},{"start":13414.826,"end":13423.229,"text":"韓國、英國、德國、歐洲、馬來西亞、菲律賓、澳洲、紐西蘭都已經行之有年所以請教主委不再一起投票政府除了要推的我們大家有一個共識就是說公民投票移轉投票相關草案"},{"start":13441.105,"end":13443.646,"text":"對於總統選舉以及其他公職人選舉不在一起投票的立場是什麼呢?"},{"start":13458.852,"end":13477.091,"text":"有關於總統副總統的選舉的部分在102年105年兩度都有草案提出來這個大院但是都沒有辦法完成立法的程序最主要的原因是因為對人的選舉比較牽涉到複雜的這個因素了所以大家沒有辦法達成共識"},{"start":13478.112,"end":13478.753,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":13496.726,"end":13509.114,"text":"對勢是什麼項目呢公民投票就公投嘛你首先要推的是公投嘛對人的部分呢是選舉我們希望對勢的公投我們累積一定的經驗之後再持續的來做檢討"},{"start":13511.996,"end":13534.981,"text":"請教主委因為剛剛本席一開頭說我們大家都有共識這個方向這是人民的這個權利那你現在所謂的要先從事然後一段時間再來人他的差別是什麼呢我們有一定的考量第一個就是說任何選制的改革必須要考慮到政黨競爭候選人競爭的公平性"},{"start":13539.702,"end":13548.272,"text":"不同的不在籍投票的方式可能大家考慮的面向不一主委你說明到這裡是疑慮蠻多的第二個必須要考慮到選舉過程的可信賴性因為不同的選舉的方式可能牽涉到透明度的問題"},{"start":13559.764,"end":13560.084,"text":"選務可行性選舉委員選舉票73票"},{"start":13577.402,"end":13595.399,"text":"有76張的選票當然增加選務的複雜度如果說再進一步的推動到地方公職人員選舉的話困難度更高了所以說必須要各個面向的考量大家能夠累積共識之外還要有實施的經驗推動會比較是穩健的"},{"start":13598.795,"end":13620.021,"text":"主委如果以你現在我願意之所以給你那麼多的時間來說明也就是外界對於我們民主的牛部話非常的質疑人家其他國家都已經行之有年那為什麼我們會如此呢照你剛剛所說的你是困難重重啊"},{"start":13624.627,"end":13633.279,"text":"美國、日本、甚至馬來西亞、菲律賓、澳洲都已經行之有年,他們為什麼不困難重重,我們為什麼會困難重重呢?"},{"start":13635.157,"end":13649.503,"text":"有沒有自己本身就已經人設的一個標準這樣子對我們的民主是真的不民主啊我們有三次啟動的這個機會但是很遺憾這三次的機會都讓他流失了102年105年還有110年都有相關的草案送進來"},{"start":13657.844,"end":13680.066,"text":"主委你講這個有點矛盾欸你從102年開始你就推動到現在大家積極要執行之希望好好真正的去推動而不是只上作業的時候你反而告訴我們說是困難重重而且你的人設的部分包括了政黨等等那這樣子不是民主倒車嗎"},{"start":13681.207,"end":13681.367,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13696.528,"end":13699.21,"text":"全國公民投票不在籍投票法的部分能夠跨出這個重要的一步"},{"start":13715.905,"end":13744.74,"text":"早一天跨出來部長這個主委你談論到現在本身還是質疑重重因為你特別講到政黨問題那這個讓人家覺得蠻奇怪應該你是在規劃整個制度面的問題而不是你先花一個把你才要射箭啦競爭的多點也是選務非常重要的因素當然是如此啊那他國都可以為什麼我們不行呢這個是人民非常質疑的一點啊"},{"start":13746.498,"end":13746.538,"text":"主席"},{"start":13751.616,"end":13767.26,"text":"一個民主的權利應該是尚為人民信賴保護原則應該是這個是唯一第一個要考慮的嘛對不對整個社會都有一定的對話對啊當然是社會有一個對話但是你是主旗幟的單位啊那如果你已經設法在那裡那怎麼討論呢對不對所以應該是廣納不一樣的聲音進來嗎我們都有在聽是不是都有在聽好不好你們再去討論"},{"start":13776.943,"end":13777.343,"text":"謝謝我們楊瓊英委員的致信好 謝謝主委"},{"start":13807.713,"end":13833.373,"text":"樓民財委員．樓民財委員．樓民財委員不在張嘉靖委員．張嘉靖委員．張嘉靖委員不在林思敏委員．林思敏委員．林思敏委員不在林靜憲委員．林靜憲委員．林靜憲委員不在邱志偉委員．邱志偉委員．邱志偉委員不在黃國昌委員．"},{"start":13838.645,"end":13839.545,"text":"好謝謝請召喚好請出位"},{"start":13864.298,"end":13877.303,"text":"委員好主委好請教一下公職委員在競選期間候選人他主要申報要負責的機關是哪個機關申報對公職委員的財產財產申報是向我們選務機關申報向選務機關申報那如果申報不實的話有誰處罰"},{"start":13884.965,"end":13886.326,"text":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":13904.807,"end":13910.35,"text":"這個個案的情形是不是由我們受理的政風單位來做說明謝謝委員"},{"start":13933.202,"end":13950.686,"text":"委員好那其實這個依據我們公職人員財產申報法的施行細則那目前他所指的不動產是指有權狀跟稅籍資料的土地跟建物所以你的意義是什麼他不要申報沒有關係是這樣嗎是這樣嗎目前的法規規定這個是沒有在申報的範圍之列"},{"start":13959.732,"end":13970.179,"text":"為了包庇特定的政治人物曲寫法律的文藝按照你中選會今天在這邊的解釋我有財產喔我有資格喔我只要落體我不去做保存登記我不去做稅集登記我就可以不用申報是這樣嗎那個是不是財產那個有沒有財產價值"},{"start":13989.484,"end":13990.144,"text":"我剛一開始你就用指引來的嗎?"},{"start":14013.206,"end":14025.998,"text":"候選人的申報跟處罰是不是中選會的處理?我現在就是在挑戰你們的標準啊!今天中選會告訴大家的是沒有保存登記沒有收集登記雖然是財產雖然是購物雖然有財產價值就可以當申報我願不說這是中選會的立場嗎?你只要說是不是就好了"},{"start":14044.701,"end":14047.443,"text":"我跟委員說明一下齁這個權責固然是由中選會來做處理但是相關的標準沒有了就來看標準來看一下"},{"start":14071.189,"end":14071.229,"text":"有門牌號碼"},{"start":14103.117,"end":14115.202,"text":"報告委員這個還是依照法規施行細則的規定所以你的意思是說 法務部門政署 要求所有候選人 將他們什麼填寫這個填寫的說明是錯的嘛 他應該要跟大家講啊沒有建屋保存登記 不用寫門牌號碼他上面寫的是什麼 沒有登記 要寫門牌號碼欸"},{"start":14129.943,"end":14133.473,"text":"按照你們的理解法務部是不是教所有的候選人都教錯了"},{"start":14135.711,"end":14158.996,"text":"按照你們今天的說明上面阿這個法務部連政署教所有候選人怎麼填寫的全部都寫錯了阿要回去徹底檢討反省阿不是嗎來我來看一下法務外登記應填寫門牌號碼並加註是沒有登記的件物如果沒有門牌號碼就寫什麼稅期號碼"},{"start":14161.548,"end":14189.116,"text":"這個不是法務部廉政署你剛所講的標準的主管機關教大家的嗎這個上面是不是寫錯了按照中選會目前喔你們是執法機關喔按照執法機關的見解是不是寫錯了報告員他目前並沒有跟法規是一致的跟法規是一致來來來看一下沒有登記應填寫門牌號碼"},{"start":14192.631,"end":14221.611,"text":"我有講錯嗎報告委員 我不敢說你講錯齁是不是讓我們政風單位能夠比較完整的說明一下可以 請說明他目前法規的規定就是說如果你沒有未登記建物的話是要填寫門牌號碼然後並加注如果是未登記建物的話也其實他最主要後面都應該要填寫他的稅籍號碼沒有嘛 剛剛主委要我給你時間說明嘛你不要挑戰大家中文閱讀的能力喔"},{"start":14222.432,"end":14236.429,"text":"主委是大律師啊主委是大律師啊來看一下未登記應填寫門牌號碼並加注是未登記件物這個中文有這麼難理解嗎"},{"start":14238.35,"end":14263.358,"text":"這個專委有這麼難理解嗎報告委員可能這個之間執行單位跟他們業管的部分大家這個溝通是不是有一些哪一點出入我們再跟廉政署來做一個確認確認的結果我們再回覆給好不好拜託諸位去跟廉政署問清楚今天我們中華民國法務部廉政署的標準是什麼沒有登記"},{"start":14264.97,"end":14279.198,"text":"賴著不去做稅籍登記即使是我的財產都不用申報臺灣啊臺灣啊我很贊同主委講的一句話臺灣的民主法治泥足珍貴作為一個法律人我只有一個要求"},{"start":14281.781,"end":14298.733,"text":"貫徹法律的規範不要因人設事我們先來做確認現在先做論斷可能還不夠所以我們會把確認的結果再跟委員做個回覆我只問最後一個問題依照公職委員財產申報法的立法目的跟立法意旨主委您覺得"},{"start":14301.038,"end":14323.16,"text":"那個房子就在那邊喔有財產價值喔只要我不去做門牌登記我也不繳稅我也不申請稅籍號碼就可以不要申報這樣對嗎我頗頗了解就是說申報的財產還是有它一定的標準這個標準具體的是到哪一個範圍我不敢講我不敢講但是並不是所有的財產一定都要申報"},{"start":14325.165,"end":14334.007,"text":"有這麼具體財產價值不在申報的範圍當中所以我們來做確認好不好我們再來做確認OK好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝我們黃國昌委員的執行那下一位我們蔡易宇蔡易宇委員蔡易宇委員不在林靜宇陳靜宇陳靜宇陳靜宇陳靜宇委員不在那"},{"start":14355.551,"end":14372.746,"text":"登記發言委員．除不在場之外．其已經發言完畢．行達結束。．委員．麥玉珍．蘇巧慧．王洪威．林俊憲．所提的市面執行列入紀錄．刊登公報"},{"start":14374.805,"end":14386.247,"text":"市面執行及未達行的部分請相關單位一周內以市面達戶並戶資本本會本路的會議到此結束現在散會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"15711","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15711","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dda7f870fb2fb2a5c30f9a65472a0a5ac33be8d109af184be41d9a183ee46310a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-11","start_time":"2024-03-11T08:30:46+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-11T13:29:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":17894,"委員發言時間":"08:30:46 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我們今天提到說相關的報告要退回然後不報告只進行詢答這個我要提醒召委"},{"start":2614.668,"end":2629.262,"text":"如果是這樣的話退回報告只進行詢答退回報告就已經失去了召開本次會議的最基本的目的如果是這樣那就沒有辦法開了我提醒召委好謝謝李坤澤委員還沒來要進行程序委員發言"},{"start":2646.651,"end":2659.282,"text":"郭董委員那個退回是有點問題的這樣好不好?我們今天這個不做業務報告就請大家參與那麼NC這邊"},{"start":2666.977,"end":2686.19,"text":"你就這裡面不足的部分,在下一次會議的時候再補充因為國中委員對這個有意見,問你這本啊你這幾個字對國人無法交代啦那我們也尊重國中委員的發言那執政黨昆澤委員的發言我們也尊重好不好"},{"start":2686.892,"end":2713.292,"text":"那你說退回也不好看嘛,是不是?你既然準備這要來,那我們今天在業務報告的部分請各位參閱那部署的部分在下一次好不好,你再補充資料你要弄到國政委員滿意為止,因為什麼?因為你這個文字太少了好不好?那個你就不要發言各位同仁這樣處理可不可以?"},{"start":2714.754,"end":2732.687,"text":"國動委員可以嗎?他在補充好不好?好,我們就照先參閱,我們再進行就參閱,下一日補充好不好?那請陳主委做廣電事業"},{"start":2735.433,"end":2762.914,"text":"申設換照審查程序執行狀況的部分做專題報告好不好?你前面那個就沒有啦我知道我知道,但是他連這個部分請主席歡悅一下在這個換照的過程當中他也沒有說明什麼啊你麥克風拿起來好不好,有沒有麥克風來還是到前面來說明一下,因為要錄音啊"},{"start":2764.878,"end":2773.805,"text":"其實這本門心自問這一本裡面有兩個主題一是業務報告二是換照過程的報告我請問到底換照過程當中你們這裡面寫什麼"},{"start":2785.894,"end":2812.246,"text":"可以不可以告訴我在哪邊你們是避重就輕欸拜託換照才是問題但是你們為什麼都避重就輕呢恍而這個部分但是今天我會提這個我不是在針對NCC而是給所有部會的人不要拿去年的東西這是對立法委員對國會一點不尊重但是你們在這裡的部分真的欸"},{"start":2813.266,"end":2833.385,"text":"你看來看去換照的過程當中也沒有啊所以我不曉得這個是怎麼報告那我也同意主席這些裁定是否就大家參與但是一個座談會一個溝通這個也是一個立法委員跟部會部門來做溝通的當然是可以"},{"start":2834.225,"end":2854.981,"text":"當然可以詢答所以我是認為啦會議規範規定的很清楚只要主席召開形式不拘但是認為不足主席是有權力這樣裁定他怎麼裁我也支持但是這裡面內容真的是缺華嘛那有沒有可能今天就"},{"start":2856.502,"end":2880.353,"text":"這個詢答是談過去或未來要做的事這個也都是一個今天召開會議主要的問題可是這一本當中真的啦將心比心看完以後因為我們很認真去看我們都可以給你算出多少個字一萬三千多個字當中九千多個字都是去年所報告的用詞"},{"start":2881.613,"end":2904.403,"text":"你們真的NCC所有的官員國文這麼差嗎換個形容詞換個用詞不是很好嗎所以我認為如果要參與那同意大家參與那下個禮拜或者朝委不管兩位朝委排個時間我們大家都可以來談可是今天事實上我認為談這些內容"},{"start":2906.804,"end":2916.012,"text":"主委去做報告我認為都不妥當我認為都不妥當所以敬請主席做採檢謝謝謝謝謝謝國產委員尊重然後跟著召委"},{"start":2928.154,"end":2955.291,"text":"等一下還是要請主秘來說明一下相關的議事程序今天業務報告跟專題報告都請主委說不用報告要直接來進行相關的詢討那我再提醒各位今天是業務報告跟專題報告然後主委都不用報告那就失去了本次開會的一個基本目的沒有目的要來開會這個相關的議事程序請主秘說明一下"},{"start":2971.513,"end":2982.682,"text":"今天還有一份這個廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況的這個專案報告但是其實我也覺得主委你也不用再專案報告了我想問主委"},{"start":2983.629,"end":3008.636,"text":"待會你可以跟我們說明一下你這個專案報告你待會是照的這個PPT一字一句的去唸還是你會說明過去的真正的執行狀況不然想各位委員去翻閱各位媒體可以參閱這一份所謂的PPT簡報裡面它每一個文字根本就只是把法條放上去而已沒有人知道什麼叫執行狀況來加怎麼換照的內容什麼都沒有"},{"start":3009.156,"end":3020.795,"text":"他裏面只是把所有的條文一字一句的把它放上去我乾脆拜託ACC下次開會前你乾脆發個LINE給我們就好了叫我們去翻閱這個相關的文件"},{"start":3021.721,"end":3038.73,"text":"那沒有必要來報告嘛因為上來報告的時候你也是在把這些程序把這些本來就已經有文字化的東西照稿念一遍的話那我想今天開這個會報告這個東西沒有意義所以我們自己看跟你講的結果是一樣我想這邊委員當然中文程度都很好啦"},{"start":3039.35,"end":3061.177,"text":"不需要特別再由這個主委來報告大家看完之後就知道你的這個文字內容長怎麼樣所以我覺得乾脆就如同趙委所採釋的直接進入巡檔我們直接進入真正的執行狀況來討論不需要看你這整本這樣這麼厚一本這樣子幾頁PPT來把它唸完唸完又花很多時間那其實沒有這個實質意義啦以上謝謝謝謝黃建豪委員下面請許智傑委員發言"},{"start":3073.01,"end":3078.463,"text":"主席大家好我想業務報告裡面有多少重複有多少新的"},{"start":3079.699,"end":3108.234,"text":"行政本來就是一致啊比如說我反詐騙我每一年都要做反詐騙啊我怎麼可以說去年有做反詐騙今年寫的就重複了所以這是很正常的那當然就是說我們在業務報告裡面啊如果是以後可以不用報告就通通懸打那以後每個委員會都不用報告啦大家都看PPT看NINE就好啦所以我想剛剛崑澤委員提到我們還是請祖密說明一下就是說我們該有的會議程序應該如何還是要跟大家報告清楚謝謝"},{"start":3111.363,"end":3117.746,"text":"好,謝謝許志傑委員發言我們歡迎黃國昌委員也到我們交通委員會來程旭委員會,程旭委員沒有發言了吧這樣啦,郭董委員、志傑委員我想國民黨委員也發言啦剛才郭忠偉委員講"},{"start":3137.594,"end":3166.14,"text":"你這本書裡面啊,你看換照的部分九千多個字,潘哲偉你講的不無道理反詐騙,我明天還是講反詐騙,後天還是講反詐騙,問題他這裡面資料重複的太多了重複太多了,根本重點還沒有講到,你怎麼重點沒有講到?你一天室的問題啊,你那個中天52台的問題啊,你官司輸了十幾次了,你要提一提吧,你不能避重就輕"},{"start":3167.512,"end":3191.435,"text":"你不能老是在這邊搔癢啊,有重點遭癢的部分要搔到,你懂我的意思嗎?所以既然我們國民黨也好民眾黨也好,這個意見我們表示尊重好不好?那下一次,下一次的委員會,請NC把功課做好你不要再文操功,今天就報告的部分就暫緩,我們再開始質詢好不好?"},{"start":3194.665,"end":3221.158,"text":"這樣就好啊,你下一次補充嘛,不是補充的意思嗎?你九千個字不要嘛,你再補充九千個字進來嘛,好不好?有一點新的東西出來嘛,你不要老是把那個清朝明朝的東西繼續再炒啊,好不好?你弄得他們都不爽,這樣好不好?你尊重一下啦,好了啦,開始啦,幾點了九點半了,來"},{"start":3224.417,"end":3252.602,"text":"那個尊重一下主席吧現在進行詢答先宣告以下的事項發言時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記在10點30分截止各委員如果有提案的話請到10點鐘以前送到議事組來暫定10點30分休息10分鐘公務員則上不休息現在請登記第一位林沛祥委員發言"},{"start":3255.188,"end":3265.153,"text":"林佩祥委員發言換喔?好,請翁曉琳委員發言主席、各位委員、還有NCC的這個"},{"start":3283.257,"end":3288.687,"text":"官員們大家好 我是翁小玲 那麼先有請陳署委好 陳署委請官員早"},{"start":3296.266,"end":3296.626,"text":"接受國會的監督"},{"start":3320.359,"end":3349.293,"text":"是,那要讓立法院有什麼樣的內容可以監督?您認為業務報告的內容該是些什麼?基本上把我們過去做的還有未來可能想做的事情說明清楚請問這些業務報告跟專題報告在送到立法院之前有經過陳主委您的核定嗎?基本上來講的話當然我有初步看過啦因為最近立法院在開議當中所以說我有初步看過而已那不足的地方各位只交電話我們會虛心接受去把它補充更詳細"},{"start":3350.874,"end":3366.527,"text":"是,如果說這份兩份報告都是經過主委您和參與過才送到立法院的話我必須說您真的是太藐視我們立法院了好,我要講一下這個不僅我們比照我們對比了麻煩下一頁PVT"},{"start":3373.266,"end":3390.604,"text":"對比了今年度的您今天送的業務報告去年就上個會期最後一次11月份時候的業務報告標題全部一樣頁數也一樣就連結語都一模一樣我非常"},{"start":3391.405,"end":3408.41,"text":"指示的看了兩個版本的不同頂多是你們出國這個上下半年跟這個今年的這個出國這個活動不同然後裡面的部分的日期有些修改更誇張的是我在網"},{"start":3409.85,"end":3434.509,"text":"上一個會期的在上一次的這個報告同樣的每一次的報告標題都一樣內容都一樣我不知道你NCC到底是您是怎麼樣帶領NCC的我們當大學教授都知道學生如果說每一次的作業都是寫一模一樣我出不同的問題他寫的作業都是一模一樣這樣子的報告基本上我會退回重寫甚至給他不及格"},{"start":3435.578,"end":3464.517,"text":"包委員這個是業務架構的部分我們把監理機關的業務就是持續性的那當然委員這各方面的指教有需要我們改進我們會去改進但是說他本來他延續性說架構是一樣的好的謝謝您的說明業務架構一樣這是我們都知道但是呢你的報告的內容你的標題你的重點會不一樣而不是說你這架構一成不變那你乾脆告訴我說你直接寫廣電三法就好了你只要寫一個電信管理法就好了這是什麼叫做你的業務架構"},{"start":3468.183,"end":3478.04,"text":"主委,您在NCC八年,擔任NCC主委五年多,委員兩年多,請問您在這八年裡面,您認為您最重要的建樹是什麼?"},{"start":3478.851,"end":3496.927,"text":"很多啊,包括電信部分來講,比如5G的建設,然後電信事業的合併,然後整個廣電秩序的建立,還有這些公平上限價的這個維持等等。好,謝謝。我在想說,大家可能不會認為這些是您的建樹,當然一想到您的建樹,大概不會就是把中天新聞台下架。"},{"start":3497.908,"end":3520.585,"text":"然後護航進新聞台申設然後再把華視新聞台上架到52台放任三例入股中加我想這是一般社會大眾想到您在NCC主委裡面單日做過什麼事情我覺得這是蠻重要的這個印象今天既然我們不審你的這個"},{"start":3525.389,"end":3537.42,"text":"提的業務報告跟這個專題報告那接下來我們就來做些口試好了請問在整個換照程序的部分諮詢委員會議"},{"start":3540.68,"end":3557.52,"text":"目前的委員的名單有公開嗎?當然沒有公開為什麼不公開?這個基本上委員他本來是專業的參與我們要保護委員避免外面的壓力我想在諮詢委員會議現在已經法制化了明訂在衛星廣播電視法裡面"},{"start":3559.002,"end":3566.888,"text":"所有法制化的會議、諮詢會議委員名單都要公開,包含輸入會、法規會、全權保障委員會等等我認為你不公開、你不敢公開諮詢委員會的名單代表你是請遵照我的諮詢權,我已經再三的強調,我不希望你跟我搶答"},{"start":3577.777,"end":3605.779,"text":"我要說的就是諮詢委員會議的委員名單不公開就代表你這個中間你安插自己的人你不敢讓這些諮詢委員這個以權責相符的態度然後公開自己所做的一個評斷所以呢我在這邊希望呼籲要求你們要公開諮詢委員會議的名單另外北高行判決之後撤銷NCC的處分請問你們有做什麼處理嗎"},{"start":3607.11,"end":3629.696,"text":"委員是問哪一件?中天新聞台我們上訴了你們上訴了,你們有仔細的閱讀北高型判決嗎?當然有啊是,然後呢他要他裡面怎麼說,你們的109年的一般頻道換照審查評分標準還在嗎?還適用嗎?這個我們都像了都一樣,這個評分標準都是一樣的,包括各種像中天的中二台或是其他新聞台的方式都一樣"},{"start":3631.001,"end":3652.566,"text":"北高型判決裏面講得非常清楚你109年的一般頻道換照審查評分標準就是違反了這個換照審查辦法可是你們卻沒有檢討而且還這個一意孤行還在試用我認為說這個是非常糟糕的一件事情而且不要忘記了北高型法院判決裏面還有在講"},{"start":3654.827,"end":3665.109,"text":"你們準備好了國賠79億嗎?針對國家賠償的部分你們有心理準備嗎?如果說這個案子到了最高型法院判決你們敗訴之後陳主委你要負連帶賠償責任嗎?你是主責為什麼會沒有這個問題?為什麼沒有這個問題?現在北高型法院"},{"start":3678.152,"end":3681.895,"text":"已經宣判你們離署份已經被撤銷現在縱使在上訴並不代表你們沒有敗訴的可能難道NCC內部都沒有準備都沒有思考嗎如果說你們真的敗訴之後就國家賠償"},{"start":3695.77,"end":3697.311,"text":"請問一下你們進新聞台現在有駐外記者嗎?"},{"start":3724.619,"end":3742.215,"text":"什麼叫駐外記者?你說駐外國的記者嗎?來,我們那個請那個,來,我們那個內容處處長所以主委你連你自己做的處分,你做的負擔你都不知道這是事務性嗎?這是這麼重要,你今天科語業者一個這麼重要的義務為什麼負擔?那當然啊,所以說我跟委員講說請我們內容處處長跟委員報告嘛"},{"start":3749.261,"end":3749.901,"text":"我現在問就是說進電視新聞台他們有駐外記者了嗎?"},{"start":3775.981,"end":3792.928,"text":"他們每年的住外經費有提供給你NCC去查核嗎?經費住外經費沒有啊這個就沒有這個問題啊沒有請你回去好好看一下你主持的付負擔沒有查核這個住外經費的問題啊是你們沒有叫他提供嗎?沒有啊這個經費住外記者的經費這個部分沒有吧我真的希望NCC你回去好好看看你們當時做了什麼付負擔你們可以這樣子這個放縱"},{"start":3806.031,"end":3820.23,"text":"進新聞台所以這代表你們就是護航你們寫了一大堆的負擔寫了一大堆的付款沒有意義那個只是作秀而已只是讓大家覺得說你好像對進新聞台沒有給予他一些負擔"},{"start":3820.871,"end":3844.841,"text":"包括我們最近來講的話像所謂自播所謂爭論節目這個我們都有去處理我現在講的不是這個我現在講的是你每一個負擔他到底有沒有做好因為時間的關係我想今天還有很多的委員要質詢所以我希望是不是可以請主席才是請NCC將進新聞台的所有付付款的執行狀況的各項紀錄以及證明不好意思現在是我在講不是你在說你不用跟我說明了我的時間不夠了"},{"start":3849.463,"end":3871.544,"text":"麻煩待會請主席財事會後請NCC將新聞台的付款所有的執行狀況的各項紀錄以及證明都要送到立法院給每個委員參考以上謝謝要送什麼他說你要把這個今後你對這個新聞台的部分你要送給委員參考"},{"start":3872.703,"end":3882.752,"text":"如果是個案有營業秘密的話我們沒有辦法這樣送請問這有什麼營業秘密這涉及公益這不是營業秘密你去看看資訊公開政府資訊公開法裡面怎麼樣規定你不要跟我騙我現在不用再說"},{"start":3893.24,"end":3898.262,"text":"我只是要求針對禁新聞台裡面的所做的12項負擔以及12項負保留廢紙權現在禁新聞台的執行狀況如何我現在是要確定到底陳主委有沒有護航禁新聞台"},{"start":3919.468,"end":3920.128,"text":"我們都有在進行啦這樣吧你們會後陳主委"},{"start":3938.698,"end":3939.558,"text":"謝謝恩委員的發言下一位請葉元芝委員發言"},{"start":3967.092,"end":3994.86,"text":"麻煩請陳耀祥主委謝謝陳主委請謝謝主委我想先問一下因為今天衛星廣播電公會有提出的一些訴求包括要落實媒體自主還有要修正一些不合時宜的廣電法規我想問一下主委你的態度是什麼我們現在目前廣電商法也內部在討論當中有那個修法的版本所以這個對衛星廣播電公會什麼時候會送到我們院會"},{"start":3995.905,"end":4011.034,"text":"那可能要等到下會期吧因為我們這個4月底4月底的時候就要提新的4個名額那個主委因為大家都知道這個科技日新月異我想你當NC主委應該也非常清楚為什麼廣電三法趕快修就是因為數位匯流嘛"},{"start":4011.734,"end":4033.149,"text":"所以慧琉現在你對於電視的管制已經跟不上時代了所以要做一個主委我會知道你也快退休了不要有帶退老兵的那種態度該做就要做好不好因為你也講不出一個時程那我今天就針對衛星公會他幾件事情我想跟你討論一下NCC組織法的第一條第一句話是什麼"},{"start":4034.726,"end":4053.581,"text":"組織法第一條議題就是我們在黨政軍啊媒體制度發展第一句話啦第一句話叫落實憲法言論自由啦好不好言論自由是本來第一個就是最重要嘛對不對那什麼叫言論自由言論自由就是人民有講話的自由啊人民有講話的自由嘛包括他可以在很多平台上講話嘛對不對那"},{"start":4055.663,"end":4083.178,"text":"所以你不能夠用莫須有的罪名去規範他甚至不讓他有講話的權利對吧沒有莫須有的問題那不能隨便就管制他嗎對吧我們叫法律審訊委內我想請教一下請問一下無線廣播電視台我們一般管制的理論基礎是什麼在國外在基本上叫稀有資源的稀有資源謝謝稀有資源在FCC在69年的一個紅屍案已經被判是不可思議的你知道嗎"},{"start":4083.638,"end":4106.223,"text":"那是FCC的問題因為NCC就是根據FCC來的嘛那我們NCC為什麼會選FCC那是因為我們認為說過去的行政院新聞局他兼具行政院的化妝師有可能會求人兼裁判嘛所以才成立了NCC對不對所以他是從FCC來的那FCC現在都已經認為頻道稀有已經過時了為什麼我們NCC還要這樣堅持"},{"start":4107.523,"end":4128.473,"text":"沒有 基本上來講他頻道稀有那個部分是在無線的部分有線的那個如果說一般衛星平台那這太好了齁一般我們是認為說對於無線的管制要比有線嚴格嘛因為他有用到頻譜嘛那有線是一個商業機制自己拉線嘛那如果FCC都已經認為無線頻譜現在不需要管制因為不稀有了"},{"start":4129.053,"end":4152.358,"text":"那為什麼我們現在還要對於無線電視跟有線電視的管制怎麼樣但是他不是以這個為理論基礎去管制嗎那我現在我其實不是要跟你討論無線電視啦因為剛剛我們講的是衛星電視衛星電視是大部分都是在有線電視上架嘛那現在有線電視以前在數位科技不發達的時候是100個頻道嘛那現在最多可以到幾個頻道"},{"start":4153.238,"end":4180.456,"text":"有大概300多個頻道喔300多個嘛那科技日新月異可能不止嘛對不對所以有可能大概五六百個頻道都有可能嘛你如果頻道數過多的話就有可能那所以基本上在這樣子頻道稀有已經不存在的情況之下我個人認為你現在用現行的廣電法規去管那些頻道已經不合時宜了特別是特別是如果說再用一些先設建再劃把的方式去關一家電視台我認為是非常不恰當沒有沒有"},{"start":4181.356,"end":4206.583,"text":"那我接下來就跟你討論這家電視台嘛我看這家電視台嘛當初主委你關中天電視台的記者會我也看了啦你開宗明義講的就是因為他受到檢舉非常多還有就是他被裁罰很多對不對違規了25件嘛還有內控機制事件後面啦你之前講的是你之前講的是違規比較多嘛對吧違規也很多第一個齁檢舉的部分我個人認為非常不合理啦"},{"start":4206.943,"end":4233.501,"text":"今天如果說我要讓一家電視台關閉的話我動員人家去檢舉那家電視台就成為你NCC關台的一個標準欸第二你所謂的裁罰25件剛剛委員也問了啊15件NCC已經敗訴了欸沒有15件敗訴15件已經敗訴沒有沒有沒有中天只贏兩件我們是14件勝訴或確定我是說訴訟當中的訴訟當中的敗訴你有上訴我知道只有10件而已喔你有上訴我知道沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":4233.922,"end":4235.884,"text":"請問一下有一個有意見的是這樣子有一個民主的謝寒冰"},{"start":4248.883,"end":4264.928,"text":"他評論說農委會失職陳吉仲是最差的主委因為針對九孔的價格農委會居然用市價來講產地價你知道嗎知道這是嗎這有沒有落實事實查證的問題當然有啊法院認為有啊重點是說那是名嘴講的話嘛你怎麼會去罰電視台呢"},{"start":4268.789,"end":4292.809,"text":"那我想請教你啦,今天林宥昌認識吧?內政部長你認識吧?你朋友吧?林宥昌曾經公開去指控盧秀燕說盧秀燕賣帝王因為盧秀燕在五年的時候賣了37.5萬的帝對吧?結果實際上是5萬那林宥昌你不罰他,然後你去罰報導林宥昌這句話的電視台合理嗎?沒有,我們沒有去任何的檢舉案說在林宥昌這句話所以只要有人去檢舉這件事情你就要罰那個報導林宥昌的電視台喔?"},{"start":4295.051,"end":4296.591,"text":"二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":4319.876,"end":4335.723,"text":"兩分鐘就更正了啦你如果說隨便一個人口誤就要罰那個電視台我們這太可怕了誰沒有口誤過啊賴清德口誤過啊賴清德把賴品瑜講成賴柏宇欸他說下架無私謠誰沒有口誤過我跟你講主委我剛剛講的那段演戲非常清楚第一因為我時間有點到不要佔我時間太久"},{"start":4346.647,"end":4372.985,"text":"一、現在你們管制媒體的理論基礎已經不在了第二、網路時代所有的人都可以透過電視去接網路啦實際上現在很多網路的影響力比衛星電視沒有說都差不多了啦然後第三現在你如果說可以用關台的方式來前置言論自由你先設建再發法沒有標準的話台灣就沒有言論自由這已經違反你NCC組織法第一條保障人民言論自由"},{"start":4376.687,"end":4378.009,"text":"好 謝謝葉言之委員下一位請黃建豪委員發言"},{"start":4399.226,"end":4412.897,"text":"本席先宣告齁大概10點半以後我們有目前有收到臨時提案10點半休息以後來處理臨時提案謝謝好請繼續好謝謝張偉一樣我們請陳主委陳主委請館長"},{"start":4422.691,"end":4438.612,"text":"主委早 主委先前的一份這個媒體的報導跟專訪裡面主委提到說這個自己是代退弟兄所以講話比較大聲但是我要提醒一下主委你當過兵嗎這個代退弟兄但是提醒五個字老兵八字親"},{"start":4440.298,"end":4468.064,"text":"這個最後這個階段雖然你即將要卸任但是該做的事情還是要做上週的時候這個我想陳建元院長在答覆這個羅志祥委員資訊的時候講說他也認為這個新聞台不應該由政府來關閉那我們要提到其實這個這幾年大家最關注的就是這個中天新聞台被這個NCC這個換照審查不過那當然他就關閉了嘛那我想這個北高興也做出了相關的判決當初也判決說要撤銷這個處分"},{"start":4469.844,"end":4492.655,"text":"那我想問一下我們NCC對於北高型作為這個作為這個撤銷處分你有什麼看法你有什麼檢討我們這個在上訴當中而且我們認為法官對於我們這個評分的標準並沒有掌握得清楚所以我們上訴最高行政法院我想根據北高型的判決書裡面法院在判決這個事情的時候他都是依據你們NCC提供的標準"},{"start":4493.115,"end":4513.765,"text":"所以我們今天就想問的是說為什麼法院的標準跟你NCC的標準有差異認知這麼大這個就是說準用的問題我想我也跟委員報告一下法律上所謂準用到底是準用到什麼範圍這個有沒有管制財產的問題對 這就是我們今天為什麼不想讓你報告的原因因為你看你現在講得出你的理論基礎但是我們看到那一份簡報裡面"},{"start":4515.246,"end":4534.627,"text":"問的是執行狀況跟業務報告你們是依據什麼去上訴你們是依據什麼樣的理論再去跟北高興再上訴一次為什麼今天我們要講這個事情因為你今天用的都是人民納稅錢啊NCC編列了這麼多預算打官司當初成立NCC是希望你們保障言論自由"},{"start":4535.748,"end":4536.769,"text":"同樣的法院也不認同這樣的標準"},{"start":4555.405,"end":4584.753,"text":"所以我今天要講的是說今天你要上訴的話那就是要問你們的標準在哪裡嘛為什麼同樣標準同樣標準法院也不認同你今天這個標準所以我今天要求是說你今天你要提上訴我們也不能有什麼意見因為你是這個行政機關你要做這樣的裁量但是你今天要提出上訴的時候你要對立法院來說明你用什麼要標準我們今天要看到的是內容為什麼你還要提上訴我想你是法律"},{"start":4584.953,"end":4587.234,"text":"沒有15連敗的問題我們目前已經申訴14個案件中天才申訴兩個案件"},{"start":4611.544,"end":4635.28,"text":"那這些案件,現在有的議審也剩啊?有的議審也剩啊?跟委員報告一下,基本上來講,充電換照不是只有裁法這個部分,它其實最嚴重是大股東介入整個新聞台,讓新聞台的內控如果你要講大股東介入新聞台,還有另外案子啦,我想待會兒也會講,但是我們今天先針對這個法院判決,我想了解NCEC的這個態度,就像我們剛剛提到的,主委我要提醒啦,老兵八字清啦"},{"start":4635.92,"end":4663.674,"text":"這個你今天竟然還是要堅持要上訴那當然我們也只能尊重但是我們要求你到底憑什麼要依據什麼來要求你要上訴那這個部分因為我要講今天你上訴的時候的經費並不是花你陳主委的錢你今天上訴的經費是花NCC編列的人民納稅錢中天也不是我的案子中天是整個國家的案子這是我們NCC所以你不是應該受我們監督今天才要求說你要提報告出來嗎今天為什麼不讓你上來報告今天為什麼大家對你的報告不滿意"},{"start":4664.054,"end":4690.059,"text":"就是你的內容裡面 完全沒有聽到社會關注的幾個不管是中天也好 不管是中加也好 不管是三立的議題節目也好 今天事也好在那份報告裡面 完全都沒有所以才急著進行詢答 所以我們才要求說你下一次還是要提份 完整的書面報告那主委我再問你一件事情當然這個東西是個猜想你想想看 如果今天我們常常講言論自由 我們應該保障百分之百的言論自由"},{"start":4690.999,"end":4711.121,"text":"如果你覺得今天鄭楠榮在事的話他還會去關電視台嗎沒有真正的百分之百的言論自由如果你說殺人放火這種恐嚇這種言論怎麼會是言論自由呢這違法嘛這當然不是這當然不是言論自由啊你侵害了人身安全當然不是言論自由啊那言論自由今天電視台要怎麼樣殺人放火你把你把這個不同言論不同立場的電視台"},{"start":4712.342,"end":4736.158,"text":"市委跟殺人、放火一樣你確定這是你要講的話嗎所以說為什麼要事實查證跟公平委員尤其事實查證的部分為什麼會有裁法的問題你的事實查證來主委按照至少以這個個案來講你的事實查證很多到後面都被法院來判決或否定了而且如果就像我們剛剛提到了如果今天任何一個人在電台講話你就要去裁法電台的話"},{"start":4737.279,"end":4738.7,"text":"你的判斷標準是什麼?是不是事實嗎?"},{"start":4760.76,"end":4782.773,"text":"事實作為認定的問題嘛,法院也是一樣的問題那我就問你啊,林佑昌講的是事實嗎?這我不曉得啊,因為我基本上來講林佑昌就承認他錯啊我沒有承認他錯,這個就要調查嘛,是不是事實這個就要調查所以他講了之後他自己承認錯誤,那如果今天有人檢舉他第一時間講的言論,送到NCC裡面,你會認定他是事實還是不是事實?阿如果他,我這個不曉得"},{"start":4783.713,"end":4784.794,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":4804.187,"end":4828.128,"text":"判決裡面NCC的這個很多的這個裁決其實是敗訴的所以我想了解NCC對這個敗訴的看法那你們說你們還是要繼續上訴所以我們再次的要求那今天這個話題先到這邊齁我要求是說你們NCC你要求要上訴那你上訴的原因是什麼你應該要提供說明給本會的所有的委員這個要說明我們會說明這個本來就是我們應該要說明的部分"},{"start":4828.909,"end":4850.67,"text":"你就沒有說明嗎?所以才要求你要說明嗎?因為今天的專題報告要寫到什麼執行狀況因為這個可能不是個案因為這個個案進行當中的部分在法院的範圍跟委員說明清楚應該也很清楚說當代這個社會上大家關心的議題是哪些重大的案子你們自己常常在看每天在看媒體的報導應該也很清楚大家都幫你整理好了"},{"start":4851.391,"end":4866.908,"text":"哪些大案子是這個社會所關注的那我們也本來也期待在今天的報告裡面能夠看到但是很可惜沒有所以說我想主委我想待會大家所有的委員會講來中天一定是這個案子嘛中加案子一定也是有一定有嘛"},{"start":4867.168,"end":4896.42,"text":"禁電是一定也有嗎?還有三菱新聞的事情一定也有嗎?中間沒有申設換照的議題了中間不是申設換照的議題如果說禁電是那是申設的問題沒有那還有很多的議題同一個事情啊系統牌的問題啊這個今天我沒辦法跟你花時間討論了因為剩下時間不多所以我是要求說你們在這個報告裡面應該具體的提出真正的做法你們想要怎麼做那送來這邊審我們立法院同不同意嗎?大家願不願意接受這樣的說法嗎?因為你有你的主張沒問題但是我們也有我們的主張這叫言論自由"},{"start":4897.16,"end":4897.3,"text":"主委"},{"start":4924.128,"end":4952.017,"text":"國父啊,孫中山先生12次失敗成功了你們打官司輸了15次,你還繼續打?你們還打?那你們失敗的原因是什麼?我也不知道欸你們就投降吧15次了,欸你訴訟費用錢很多是不是?明年審議算我把你訴訟費用全部給你砍掉,你們自己出錢喔"},{"start":4953.496,"end":4978.176,"text":"哪有這樣搞的黃委員剛才講你不要亂登嘛,盧秀慧委員根本沒有那麼多賣那麼多地,你要寫那麼多地你們要有一點舉證責任嘛,是不是?你新聞有點責任啦你不要照登啊,講誰跟誰通姦你也把他登上去沒有這回事,你亂寫誰貪汙,沒有貪汙應該寫上去亂寫"},{"start":4982.475,"end":4999.695,"text":"你要有舉證的責任嘛好不好,你們注意一下,你們這個新聞沒那麼自由欸好不好你是別人在那邊登的話,你就搞死人家,你自己都沒事喔好不好,請坐囉下一位請林國成委員發言"},{"start":5010.734,"end":5013.996,"text":"好 謝謝主席請陳主委主委請很好好 主委齁其實特別跟你解釋啦你們門心自問確實不是不讓你報告確實內容真的要拜託你們我們做不好的地方也謝謝委員的指教我們會去改正那我跟他跟你談一些感性的問題"},{"start":5041.482,"end":5062.177,"text":"主委以前在做教授的時候據我個人對你所了解你在當教授的時候是好教授可是你現在當了主委以後真的我認為你不是好主委還沒有回答我請你回答你才回答第一個"},{"start":5063.444,"end":5092.108,"text":"有幾句一個媒體我看了寫的文章我看了非常感動那我要請教我們主委說媒體壟斷是民族就會存人這句話你同意吧我當然同意另外一句話就是思想控制跟操作比飛彈還可怕這個你也同意吧當然非常同意"},{"start":5093.22,"end":5121.053,"text":"另外還有這個寫者他講經濟強權跟政治力如果直步掏空或摧毀變成台灣民主的根基這個你同意吧我問這三個重點主委你知道是誰講的嗎所以我看起來就非常諷刺欸"},{"start":5122.469,"end":5149.716,"text":"沒有啊 我們都是在做這個事情的 是所以我剛才已經講囉你當教授的時候我非常尊重你因為可以講出這一套的理論就代表什麼你對於媒體公正等等你是有概念的可是當了主委以後看起來你看看多少個我們的委員都國會裡面都對於你質疑為什麼"},{"start":5151.38,"end":5169.033,"text":"主委 我跟你講 我一輪錢給你 我用我的時間給你去做改黨為什麼產生這麼大的變化 跟這麼大的落差根委員報告 基本上來講的話 我們是依照我剛剛主委 那個委員所講的這個原則跟方向去執行"},{"start":5170.114,"end":5173.697,"text":"我告訴你換個位置換個腦袋不是只有你但是我要呼籲你"},{"start":5187.987,"end":5188.487,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":5209.978,"end":5230.447,"text":"一個案件我剛才不是主委一句話說要怎麼做就怎麼做 那就被你所長知道我們合意是本來整個程序上很多人好啦 我跟你說 你的立場我很清楚但是不要忘了 很明顯既成事實所有的人對NCC都不知道要怎麼下定論慶祝藍蘇 只有台灣人民覺得NCC有"},{"start":5237.33,"end":5262.321,"text":"只是說 有只是沒有 稍後再看起來有又對老百姓的傷害 又對媒體是要管理 不是要傷害所以 我覺得啦 我個人的感覺NCC是應該要保護媒體 替老百姓要有公正媒體的作為但是我跟你說啊 你做教授的時候你講這些話都主席啊 我也支持啊但是你做主委所做的"},{"start":5265.882,"end":5280.999,"text":"所作所為是反差太大出入太大所以注意我沒有要跟你說這個接下來人家在說台灣人說一句話因為我也知道你也是"},{"start":5282.453,"end":5309.173,"text":"鄉下可以做到教授可以做到這個主委說實在也是有你的努力但是人死老命後死老賠這是我們台灣人最重要的我現在要問我們主委我們主委你現在喔所有的官員裡面主委我跟你說喔你的滿意度是最低的"},{"start":5310.558,"end":5330.996,"text":"阿你齁對面啊反彈最大的就是你就是你所以主委我是提供這這是依法有計有數計的我要提供給你去做參考不要說陳耀祥以前教授大家尊敬他但是當了陳耀祥主委以後"},{"start":5332.217,"end":5333.098,"text":"中廣也是這樣,我們不是要民調比賽"},{"start":5349.099,"end":5363.394,"text":"民意代表就有義務要提醒你民意代表要提供知性讓主委去作為你未來如何施政的一個參考所以我這是讓你做參考接下來接下來"},{"start":5364.403,"end":5387.284,"text":"有一個比較敏感但是事情都已經發生當初你在應徵NCC委員的時候有一個總統府密件那裡面寫說寫說什麼呢也就是說能配合處理中天有沒有這回事"},{"start":5388.544,"end":5396.229,"text":"沒有這個事情沒有這個事情我也是跟委員我看你媒體電話怎麼寫沒有沒有沒有這有就有沒有就沒有你沒有的東西我也可是我會感覺是說無風不起浪啦但是沒關係事情過了但是總是要水落雛屍愛紅感覺說沒有你就要叫為什麼你都不去候人我也感覺到很奇怪那這個也無所謂事情過後真的沒有這個事情真的沒有這個事情好"},{"start":5416.824,"end":5426.941,"text":"那我當然我一定相信你啦齁我一定相信你但是真的很多坊間包括媒體都議論紛紛啦"},{"start":5428.874,"end":5442.14,"text":"所以我剛才才跟你講這個後勢老婆、人勢老娘所以不要因為當了官然後連你的娘就炒掉這沒有必要來來來主席來來來主委來我再跟你請教一下剛才我們的同仁都有講啦"},{"start":5450.504,"end":5471.234,"text":"你們在訴訟NCC所有訴訟的案件比工程單位還多為什麼沒有沒有比工程單位還多好來你如果要逼這個我跟你說我跟你講喔五年前成長八倍的訴訟會為什麼我跟你說喔一千三百一千三百一十萬訴訟會"},{"start":5474.013,"end":5485.397,"text":"我給委員報告一下好不好當然中間這樣有影響有影響第二個是什麼第二個我們都是黨政軍的議題啦好 那沒關係來來來來我問題給你點出來主委你們就要去檢討為什麼五年來你的訴訟會會這麼多來最後一個"},{"start":5493.3,"end":5508.047,"text":"中加案是大家的這個議論紛紛啊對不對好那沒有關係比較敏感的你們現在中加案已經開滑嘛阿為什麼只有開滑賣家阿買家都不需要"},{"start":5508.447,"end":5509.728,"text":"我拜託你下個禮拜或者你們重新寫的時候我拜託你"},{"start":5526.838,"end":5535.863,"text":"中加開華山立不開華你要解釋清楚同一個合約同一個案子同一個違規事實為什麼只開賣方那買方不開華我告訴你注意"},{"start":5542.446,"end":5546.091,"text":"不能說他跟你關係比較好你就不開罰 這行政不中立欸我真的蠻期待你的陳教授"},{"start":5558.973,"end":5577.715,"text":"的風範要拿出來最後只剩下7月份希望幾個月當中做一個做一個真正有擔當的NCC的主委好不好好謝謝委員好謝謝林國成委員下一位請邱若驊委員發言"},{"start":5590.99,"end":5592.933,"text":"主席好 有請陳主委好 主委請委員好"},{"start":5602.082,"end":5628.839,"text":"主委好,剛才聽到您講說NCC作為獨立機關那國家通訊傳播委員會作為獨立機關理應依法行政那獨立行使職權但近年來NCC未能保持中立以及獨立行使職權已經造成了信任危機那陳主委在您任內多起案件備受爭議包括撤銷中天電視換照案還有禁電視執照審查案尤其中天撤照案還主動挺華視公開呼籲給公廣"},{"start":5632.392,"end":5653.067,"text":"集團新聞頻道一個機會也在前年推動有侵犯言論自由疑慮的數位中介服務法造成過半民意訪談而後行政院暫緩推動那我們看到這一張簡報竟有72.3%的受訪民眾認為主委您應該下台也讓你組長的NCC不被信任度高"},{"start":5654.935,"end":5682.808,"text":"過半民眾不相信NCC是獨立公正的機關在民主社會中當政府機關不被人民信任的話是一種危機那主委你的爭議之一讓NCC公權力干涉到新聞台的新聞自由造成寒蟬效應那尊重新聞自由是民主國家政府機關必須秉持的原則同意嗎我們本來是獨立機關就依照法律依法去行政去監理做監理所以這沒有什麼這個問題了當然各界的意見我們都尊重了"},{"start":5683.368,"end":5712.931,"text":"那跟委員報告一下,特別剛剛委員有提到這個所謂的《仲介法》《仲介法》當時是為了很多事解決包括我們很多的網路犯罪、炸機或是其他的像性癮像兒少保護的議題其實《仲介法》我們當時只是還在徵詢階段當然外界有很多不同的聲音以後我們就是說我們也把它就停止希望在外界跟社會都溝通完以後再來處理這個議題所以後來包括很多性癮像這個部分也是透過個別立法去通過的"},{"start":5713.231,"end":5714.012,"text":"指揮不斷主委您有任何反省"},{"start":5728.652,"end":5743.946,"text":"有啊,我們基本上呢,我們跟外界多回應,一直在回應當中那只是說,因為這信者恆信,不信者恆不信,就變成這個議題嘛那民主社會裡面本來各種不同意見都有嘛有不同意見這個才是我們民主社會一個最珍貴的地方嘛"},{"start":5744.586,"end":5771.254,"text":"在上週五的時候本黨委員在質詢行政院院長陳院長的時候他說是否認同新聞台跟節目不該由政府去關台那後來陳院長也鬆口表示認同因為主委的公信力被質疑當時質詢的委員沒有讓您回答那這裡是交通委員會今天的議程正是跟我們國家通訊傳播委員會業務報告有關那現在請主委回答那是否認同新聞台跟節目不應該由政府去關台跟委員報告一下"},{"start":5772.114,"end":5797.78,"text":"這個就是說要不要有換照制度這個問題其實重點就在這個部分比如說我們現在在網路上因為沒有拿執照也沒有換照的問題你一個網紅或誰要都OK但是為什麼要換照制度這個部分就是政府去把關的議題就是說政府要不要透過在一定的法律授權底下對這些相關的市場去做一定的把關那當時陳院長在連續被問6次的情況下最後收口是爛頭那主委您呢"},{"start":5798.32,"end":5799.241,"text":"請主委回答認同還是不認同"},{"start":5821.774,"end":5846.929,"text":"那有很多的前提啦認同不認同這很多的前提OK好那獨立機關的人士受任期保障在違反相關法令的時候不管是誰執政都不可以直接解任NCC委員之職務那獨立機關人受憲法體制下之制衡跟監督那立法院對獨立機關之監督也是憲政秩序下之批要陳主委您有不少爭議之外那在上屆國會就被批評"},{"start":5847.469,"end":5869.657,"text":"不尊重國會、藐視國會那行政機關本來就應該要對立法院負責上屆發生過官員藐視國會的那些案例也讓過去完全執政的民進黨遭受到不負責任阿拔的批評也讓過去立法院過半的民進黨委員背負著完全執政、完全護航的包袱請問主委是不是因為您的任期快結束了就對國會的監督不在意"},{"start":5870.037,"end":5886.906,"text":"沒有我們在一個位置每一天做到盡責盡職本來行政機關接受立法院機關立法機關的這個監督這個是憲法裡面所規定的我們也沒有藐視國會可能在行政跟立法的溝通或監督的過程裡面有些意見不一樣但是這沒有藐視國會的議題"},{"start":5889.036,"end":5910.972,"text":"OK那上一屆民進黨立院席次過半這一屆席次減少並會過半沒有辦法像過去一樣護航著主委那主委的任期 主委的任期到7月底只要還在位子上的一天就得面對新國會的監督這是不分政黨不分黨派的委員都對您的喊話請問您要怎麼做調整呢"},{"start":5913.395,"end":5919.909,"text":"就是做到最後一天你們有監督我們就該來報告阿你們有說明你們委員有一問題我們剛才要回答就是這樣阿"},{"start":5920.566,"end":5921.187,"text":"主委您認為你有哪些地方要做檢討呢?例如在我們"},{"start":5947.33,"end":5975.35,"text":"在您的任期結束之前,面對新一屆的國會改變自己的負面評價,您要做出哪一些改變呢?其實比如說像黨政軍的議題我們要不要處理那比如說我們換照制度要如何更確實、比較落實有些哪些東西要入法還有我們很多比如說事實查證的部分來講要如何去精進的議題那當然還有很多電信的議題因為時間的關係可能就沒有辦法跟委員一起一報告說明清楚我們在業務報告裡面會再跟委員說明清楚OK,那我希望可以在業務報告裡面看到,謝謝"},{"start":5978.959,"end":6005.96,"text":"好,謝謝邱若驊委員的發言下一位請林俊憲委員發言欸,放上沒關係啊你不要來踩欸好,謝謝主席本席邀請我們NCC陳主委好,陳主委"},{"start":6012.029,"end":6036.499,"text":"委員好委員好各位這個詐騙喔詐騙這個時代是讓很多人民生物痛絕那其實很多方面啦其實需要團隊合作啦也需要NCC也需要速發部啦這是前幾天發生的一個案例啦你知道現在科技有進步有那個AI的語音科技公司嘛當然有有個嫌犯啦他就下單啦"},{"start":6037.919,"end":6060.967,"text":"他用五萬元去客製化一個詐騙電話AI機器模組那這個AI機器模組他都可以自動打了一百萬通電話然後呢他根據民眾在電話裡面答覆的那個內容AI會自動把有興趣的民眾抓出來然後他再發簡訊去釣魚有個民眾就因為這樣子"},{"start":6064.417,"end":6092.035,"text":"他誤信以為可以投資股票賺錢匯了2700萬也可以說是一畢生積蓄都沒有了所以面對未來的新的科技我們希望NCC能夠有相關的對策尤其像這種AI電話詐騙的你知道現在詐騙案案件我給主委看一下詐騙案件節節升高回到上一頁就是詐騙的件數"},{"start":6095.282,"end":6121.636,"text":"主委你有看嗎?詐騙的金額啦現在一年啦大概都有三萬五千件以上啦那受害的金額啊也逐年升高啦對不對你看2022年七十億啊去年啊就會突破八十億了好那你知道現在什麼詐騙案啊最多嗎?那個應該是網路的投資詐欺第一個投資詐欺啊"},{"start":6123.564,"end":6131.473,"text":"投資,他不一定在網路啦,網路都不是你管而已。現在詐騙案最多的就投資詐欺案啦,佔了快30%啦。我看那個財訊連謝金閣都自己登廣告啦,自律救濟啦。"},{"start":6140.506,"end":6141.186,"text":"二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":6161.465,"end":6161.825,"text":"主委知道誰在從事詐騙嗎?"},{"start":6182.464,"end":6183.385,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6212.486,"end":6213.587,"text":"現在最容易受害者最多也是年輕人"},{"start":6237.438,"end":6265.364,"text":"因為網路重度使用啦 都在網路裡贏啦我們以前覺得老人黃黃好騙 沒有啦年輕人也很好騙 你來看啦現在受害者啊 一樣啊 也是集中在年輕人啦這被害人喔 被害人被害人在40歲以內啊 大概7成在7成受害者是40歲以內年輕人所以在網路上 為什麼速發部很重要 為什麼ACC很重要你看現在這種AI語音生成器啊"},{"start":6266.325,"end":6283.631,"text":"他可以自動打幾百萬通電話然後他可以根據你怎麼回答他就知道你有沒有興趣你聽幾秒你聽很久講很久就表示你有興趣嘛然後他事後再用簡訊丟回去給你像那邊那個北愛林就因為這樣啦一次兩次匯了2700萬你看看像這樣的詐騙案啦"},{"start":6288.069,"end":6295.746,"text":"未來啊 因為科技的進步啊 現在越來越可怕了我們希望NCC啊 像這種AI雲電競照片 你們有什麼辦法處理啊"},{"start":6298.001,"end":6325.784,"text":"我們這個也是要配合其他部會大家一起處理的因為AI這個層面齁比如說像深層式AI這個部分那怎麼利用既然犯罪集團用AI來做詐欺政府在防治過程要用AI來做防禦嘛那這個部分來講的話我們需要國科會還有需要那個刑事警察局大家一起共同來配合還有當然最重要是還有包括數位部一起來處理這個問題還有警管會不過這樣已經有案例發生了我希望大家政府的腳步要快一點那另外齁"},{"start":6328.117,"end":6328.897,"text":"我告訴你喔 主委"},{"start":6352.099,"end":6370.807,"text":"你每一次在你任內啦基本上照理講修這個法是你任內很重要的一個工作很可惜啦你看你自己寫的報告裡面啊廣電三法你說要今年年底啦2024年12月才報行政院OTT啊你寫2025年啊6月才要報行政院啊我不知道你怎麼估算的啦"},{"start":6379.333,"end":6401.181,"text":"目前來看你寫這個錄取實在是有點不大負責任最主要是ODT是因為涉及到網路平台業者的這種責任的問題那這個部分來講的話不是只有我們ODT TV包括整個平台因為ODT現在的市佔率越來越高啦你應該知道吧ODT現在佔有率大概13%跟中華電信的MOD幾乎一樣"},{"start":6403.686,"end":6422.647,"text":"有任何的消費糾紛或內容有什麼樣的狀況我們根本沒有辦法管理所以這個消費者保護就是我們要立法的所以你要趕快來立法啊照你所講你明年明年底勒2025年12月ODD專法你才要送行政院那我們加快腳步啦我不知道你怎麼排這個期程啦"},{"start":6423.82,"end":6439.963,"text":"那應該是給下一屆的NCC的那個委員或者是他們主委來弄嘛那怎麼定這個日期我不清楚啦但這個法律確實是在避刑嘛你這樣OT現在越來越多啊對不對有間電視收看率一直下降啊還有現在民眾對於"},{"start":6448.277,"end":6469.762,"text":"媒體的那個就要接受訊息阿信任度阿非常低阿你知道瑞典的那個難怪瑞典阿曾經阿在評估阿瑞典有個專業的機構阿他在評估全世界的假訊息阿台灣阿連續10年阿殘年世界第一名阿我就覺得這個"},{"start":6471.645,"end":6493.847,"text":"臺灣的假訊息受境外的有境外的假訊息來影響臺灣是全世界最嚴重的國家而且纏連10年了當然這大部分為了假訊息大家都很清楚就是來自中國嘛那這部分我認為啊事務部跟UCC要負最大的責任所以你看現在民眾啊"},{"start":6494.878,"end":6508.308,"text":"根據台灣市的查核中心的民調一般人認為經常性甚至每天上播假消息有過半一般的民眾認為電視上廣播經常都胡說八道說話都假你看網路更嚴重所以台灣好像活在一個什麼都是假的社會裡面"},{"start":6524.52,"end":6524.66,"text":"主席"},{"start":6554.631,"end":6583.681,"text":"議員委員發言下一位請許智傑委員發言報告許智傑委員發言完畢以後休息10分鐘休息10分鐘完畢以後處理臨時提案不是一樣這樣,好不好?像一樣啊九十點半,每十點半休息好不好?"},{"start":6586.038,"end":6600.868,"text":"好啦齁好啦許智英委員發言不要讓我說謝謝主席,我們請主委好請主委謝謝"},{"start":6607.782,"end":6628.937,"text":"委員好主委好我剛剛聽那個建設委員提到的這個OTT是正好我要求很多年的這個這個MSO對那將來就是OTT、MSO、MOD現在剩三分天下那OTT一直在成長"},{"start":6633.12,"end":6646.907,"text":"往那三分天下的話,三大龍頭啦那OTD現在已經取向越來越多那MSO呢是越來越少"},{"start":6649.682,"end":6655.867,"text":"但是呢 你看都還 沒減少啦齁 訂戶在減少 訂戶在減少對啊 現在才451萬戶嘛 你要看對2018 50萬戶到現在2023 451萬 每一年都減少十幾萬那從這個速度來看 它還會在繼續減少那我們來看就是未來 對MSO到底我們的"},{"start":6678.288,"end":6704.585,"text":"NCC應該怎麼去看待他們是放給孫基主任放水佬嗎?不是,沒有放水佬沒有放水佬,我們一直要求的就是頻道區快化要如何讓他的收視品質可以提高我記得4年前3年多前主委剛就任的時候所有的NCC委員我一個一個問每個人都贊成"},{"start":6706.104,"end":6723.468,"text":"到了現在3年半了還是一事無成區塊化還是有在做區塊而且區塊板就存在所以你如果看CAPTV你看大家最在意的當然是新聞頻道嘛所以那個區塊化還是存在只是說在大區塊以外還沒有小區塊這個問題對啊"},{"start":6725.609,"end":6741.386,"text":"所以區塊塊還是存在的我們這個法定規定都還是有所以包括最近齁像迪士尼Plus要迪士尼要下架這個Cable TV以後這些我們在考慮的時候部分都還是就是因為他一直在Decade所以人家就要下架啊"},{"start":6741.8,"end":6744.863,"text":"所以我就講說我們現在一直要求這個區塊化那什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":6766.391,"end":6793.852,"text":"偷偷可以什麼時候完成委員報告委員會主任關心這個議題那時候我們還在做相關的研究但是因為這個要投入的資本它也真的是很龐大所以而沒說這不分來講人家意願就很所以我們當時有跟委員報告就是說如果有哪些區塊有需求我們透過那個所謂遙控器的方法也是一種方法就是讓消費者可以簡單的看到他想看到的區塊的那個內容那遙控器是要買還是要送"},{"start":6794.522,"end":6818.608,"text":"那個如果那個可以請如果可以的話啦為了推廣這個區域的話如果遙控器可以的話我們就盡量請業者看能不能用送的方法去處理這個議題總是要有時間給我們嗎有有這個基本上來講因為我記得當時你可以看齁區塊化我們現在更新基上河的情況大概剩下650萬台去年我記得你們給我的數據大概800萬台"},{"start":6821.738,"end":6849.258,"text":"你看這樣一年多就差100多萬台而且呢他們這個他們自己業者也會換嘛因為有一些機上盒的軟體要更新的你看無法更新機上盒的現在是589萬台那NCC有補助跟業者自行更換的呢也有80萬台所以其實他都在動那只是說我這個照這個速度動我可能還要動8年到10年"},{"start":6851.175,"end":6859.266,"text":"那你現在替代方案就是說你用遙控器可以替代這到底效果好不好啊到底現在量有多少"},{"start":6860.911,"end":6889.774,"text":"量有多少基本上來講的話如果這個可行我們當時研究這是一個可行的方向那個是可以全面性看要不能來實施的問題總要讓我們知道進度啊規劃跟進度如何跟委員報告一下這個部分來講除了Cable TV以外這因為還涉及到頻道上的他們的商業利益的問題那這個進程來講的話我們也是希望可以儘快的因為跟委員講來報告一下就是說因應了這個Cable TV它整個剪線槽的這個線的出現當然那個速度"},{"start":6891.035,"end":6906.623,"text":"韓國瑜加快,所以KBTV這邊來講的話,有些劣勢系統經營業者,他們除了自己本身另外提供像寬頻上網服務以外,也跟ODT的業者去進行合作,所以將來他的這個基上合的用途就會非常"},{"start":6907.143,"end":6928.946,"text":"所以是不是可以請主委給我一份報告然後呢就是就我剛才要求的區塊化這個部分我們的規劃跟進度如何那當然主委剛提到他們跟OTT業者合作他們大概怎麼樣打算怎麼樣合作那未來我們的MSO"},{"start":6930.988,"end":6950.59,"text":"雖然已經越來越少但是還有450萬戶的權益我們還是要顧所以這個部分希望說一起來思考主委可以給我一個報告我們那個一個月之內OK是給我一份報告就包括MSO包括"},{"start":6951.591,"end":6980.499,"text":"MOD包括 OTT他們未來的研究發展的方向那如何在我們這三個三大龍頭不是電信三大龍頭是我們電視三大龍頭這三大龍頭能夠將來怎麼樣競合或者是說我們要分別跟各自的收視群跟他解釋你們的權利跟義務在哪裡那如何確保你們收視的品質這個都是我們NCC要去思考的吧"},{"start":6981.099,"end":6988.114,"text":"是不是請主委一併思考那一個月內給我一份報告那第二個問題就是那個"},{"start":6989.423,"end":7013.079,"text":"若是族群我也曾經提過這一部分也謝謝NCC有暖心方案就照顧中低收入戶跟年長者這些這個暖心方案是很好那我也跟主委提過暖心方案如果能夠再加上防炸的話這個效果會更好因為正好若是族群跟老人也是被人家騙的"},{"start":7014.66,"end":7024.609,"text":"最佳的對象啦最容易受騙的對象啦所以這個部分我們是不是來看就是電話的詐騙那比如說老人來講啦長輩啦"},{"start":7026.826,"end":7046.523,"text":"你們現在中華電信它防害這個守門員是針對網路啦針對網路但是呢你如果是長輩基本上他會受到網路詐騙的機會會比受到電話詐騙的機會還要小所以我是覺得就是先防電話詐騙這個優先來處理那主委也跟我說上一次也說好"},{"start":7048.527,"end":7049.528,"text":"現在的進度如何?"},{"start":7068.712,"end":7069.152,"text":"最後我再要求一下"},{"start":7090.467,"end":7104.165,"text":"台灣大哥大反詐戰警這個個人版這個他有針對我講的這個暖性方案他就不收費這個就很具體這個要謝謝他們然後遠傳他還是要收50塊"},{"start":7109.79,"end":7122.727,"text":"對於老人、長輩、弱勢族群可不可以比照台灣大哥大辦理我們是來協調電信業者,看朝這個方向去那還有中華電信,這麼大間的電信公司提供這個電話防詐有問題嗎?"},{"start":7126.561,"end":7154.806,"text":"這個我們協調中華電信啦要保護這些高齡業就是這三大龍頭電信三大龍頭我希望說既然我們有軟線方案照顧低收入戶跟老人是不是他們最容易受騙的我們一起去保護他們那這個進度什麼時候給我跟委員給委員報告的時候我們再來跟委員硬幣說明好不好那一個禮拜"},{"start":7157.072,"end":7157.272,"text":"休息10分鐘"},{"start":7189.152,"end":7193.616,"text":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":7747.473,"end":7760.949,"text":"打零了好,開會現在處理臨時提案本日既有七個案請議事人員一併宣讀"},{"start":7767.274,"end":7784.04,"text":"臨時提案提案一致依立法院職權刑事法定時處條之規定特提案成立禁電式申涉其後續弊案爭議調閱專案小組旅行本院委員監督之職者提案人委員林國成等提案二"},{"start":7785.779,"end":7809.131,"text":"要求通傳會撤回所提交至本委員會執業務報告．並於一週內重新撰寫一份真正反映過去一年內工作成果．符合通訊傳播監理機關專業標準及展現未來規劃之詳盡報告以重建公眾及立法機關對通傳會的信任與期待提案人委員林國成等"},{"start":7810.595,"end":7828.424,"text":"提案三、敬請NCC針對裁判案件內容及理由尊重諮詢委員意見．並且對於有確定判決案件申請再審之必要性．進行重新檢討並於兩週內提出檢討報告．提案人委員黃健豪等"},{"start":7829.349,"end":7833.834,"text":"提案四,知音競變4在2024總統大選之前開設大選競來獎2024選戰論壇,請於兩週內提出相關報告說明。提案人委員黃健豪等。"},{"start":7845.506,"end":7864.487,"text":"提案五、三立集團違反入股宗家案有兩位NCC委員曾提出應對上層的宏順公司究責並應重新考慮三立電視包括宗家申請移平三立財經新聞台以及三立新聞台、三立財經新聞台換照評鑑案等"},{"start":7867.19,"end":7896.156,"text":"禁請NCC針對兩位委員之意見兩週內提出修法相關方向及上述案件檢討提案人委員黃健豪等提案六、禁請交通委員會作成決議針對國家通訊傳播委員會主委陳耀祥踐踏民主監督機制敗壞官德官簽嚴重藐視國會之行徑莫此為甚因與嚴厲譴責提案人委員魯明哲等"},{"start":7897.95,"end":7922.782,"text":"提案七、建請委員會作成決議．針對國家通訊傳播委員會近年審查競電式申設審照及換照過程．外力介入情況、附加條件等．有無涉及部法成立調閱專案小組．要求有關機關就特定議案涉及事項提供參考資料．以落實國會監督提案人委員魯明哲等。宣布完畢。"},{"start":7925.708,"end":7942.938,"text":"好,一共七個案第一案跟第七案是一樣,內容是一樣的第一案並第七案來處理合併處理第一案跟第七案合併處理好,我們討論第二案第二案各位委員有沒有意見?第二案林國城委員有修正"},{"start":7956.5,"end":7980.441,"text":"在第二段的部分,通常會此行為不僅藐視國會這一段通通除掉,改為建議刪除本會沒有藐視國會的本意。誰嘛?這是誰的意見嗎?你們的意見你們改啊。好,那你上台補充一下,來。"},{"start":7990.29,"end":8004.997,"text":"報告主席及各位委員我們建議這個第二案裡面的第二段這部分可以刪除了那對於這次報告裡面來講沒有寫好那造成各位委員的這些可能關心或這個意見我們會去補充所提交的這個業務報告所以我們這邊並沒有藐視國會的議題"},{"start":8015,"end":8042.594,"text":"那後面的那個第二後第三段的部分來講的話我們是是建議改成第三段第二行一週內改為一個月要求補充所提交的業務報告我們是希望建議說一個月內重新那個撰寫第二段全部撤掉然後在後面那裡寫補充撤回改為補充一週改為一個月是不是這個意思是是是好各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":8043.891,"end":8052.529,"text":"沒意見我們第二案修正通過第三案第三案各位有沒有意見"},{"start":8059.006,"end":8072.378,"text":"行政部門報告主席及該委員,這個基本上來講因為這有些會涉及到個案是否申請有時候個案性的議題我們建議說我們是會提出書面報告那這個部分來講後面的這個"},{"start":8074.279,"end":8098.295,"text":"第三行的部分來講的話是不是說我們這個部分可能要這個部分可能刪除我們是希望是說我們會尊重諮詢委員的意見並提交這個比如說兩週內提交這個書面報告兩週內提出書面報告各位委員有沒有意見好沒有意見臨時案第三案通過第四案第四案各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":8100.967,"end":8115.407,"text":"沒意見,行政部門有沒有意見?我們建議改成這個所謂書面報告改書面報告,對不對?好修正通過,第五案第五案,各位委員有沒有意見?沒意見,行政部門?"},{"start":8116.641,"end":8137.151,"text":"我們後面那個倒數第三行應有規範落實那個付款因為我們的付款不一定只有付負擔的部分然後那個倒數第二行來講的話那個兩週可不可以改成這個一個月提出這個相關修法的這個規劃方向機檢討上述這個部分檢討這個書面報告"},{"start":8139.287,"end":8153.442,"text":"負擔改為付款,兩週改為兩個月內相關修法規劃方向。各位有沒意見?沒意見?第五案修正通過,第六案?第六案各位有沒意見?沒意見說明?"},{"start":8163.375,"end":8177.592,"text":"我們說明跟主席跟各位人報告一下第二段裡面來講的話所謂業宇提起訴訟什麼15次勝訴跟15次敗訴我想這個東西來講跟事實是有所誤解的那這部分我是建議刪除的那檢查案部分因為"},{"start":8178.853,"end":8197.62,"text":"我們整個申設換照部分是依照這個大院的所制定的法律還有授權所制定的這相關法規命令這個我們沒有所謂的踐踏民主的監督機制或是藐視國會的部分所以這個部分是不是建議建議我們就不予成立了謝謝建議什麼"},{"start":8203.494,"end":8215.897,"text":"尊重委員會的討論我們是認為這個譴責案跟我們事實上還是有點錯譴責案你不尊重嗎?你尊重我們譴責案,那你尊重嗎?但是問題是說建議不要予以譴責案尊重就不討論了嗎?好不好沒有啦沒有啦,我們還是認為說你不尊重我們嗎?"},{"start":8228.294,"end":8249.528,"text":"尊重我們 尊重我們 那第6案就通過啦顧責委員請講不贊成因為不贊成委員講 我們行政機關不敢這樣寫法啦我們是尊重的 主席表決報表決 表決要表決嗎好來表決來同意的請舉手 在場有多少 請點人數"},{"start":8257.605,"end":8283.79,"text":"交通委員會一共多少人?請舉手不要亂舉手,有的不是吧來,清點人數你們站長、主席、委員、大人一個、兩個一個、兩個、三個、四個,才五位喔我想懂人數啊"},{"start":8294.992,"end":8314.307,"text":"有11位嗎?有11位出席齁?我們確定有11位好,站著那幾局走?韓主席嗎?1、2、3、4、5那我勒?我等一下齁,我等一下齁我公平看了勒"},{"start":8315.878,"end":8344.546,"text":"好來反對請舉手一、二、三、四、五,五票對五票那我舉手郭敏燦好不好那現在6比5通過好我念一下勒好第六案齁表示贊成的六票反對的五票通過"},{"start":8353.54,"end":8369.451,"text":"第一案第一案跟第七案合併討論第七案來,各位委員沒意見沒意見,行政單位說明"},{"start":8370.75,"end":8394.62,"text":"報告主席及各位委員,這個貂園小組的部分關於今天是上一屆委我們大概已經進行過5次的專案報告了那提出相關的資料,而且這個案子來講的話這是第一個是個案性的,因為這個是我們在進行當中如果今天通過這個所謂的貂園小組這個很明顯這個我們認為這個是有可能所謂的政治干預這個所謂個案形式的這個問題"},{"start":8395.6,"end":8422.292,"text":"那第二個來講的話就是我們大貫4至729號這個問題了請委員我們建議我們當然行政部門是贊成這樣提成這個第二小組好,各位同意嗎?不行那就表決喔表決表決好我們這場交通委員人數11位齁贊成的請舉手贊成的請舉手11位、2位、3位、4位、5位"},{"start":8425.79,"end":8452.35,"text":"一個人擠一隻手不要擠兩隻喔?一、二、三、四、五個,好五位反正擠幾隻手?不要放下,我還沒叫你放下啊幾個?五個,五位五位那我就參加我們算成了嗎?"},{"start":8463.463,"end":8474.467,"text":"臨時提案已經處理完畢了,如果有委員對上述提案補簽的,列入紀錄並刊登公報好不好?繼續請李坤澤委員召委發言"},{"start":8484.738,"end":8511.101,"text":"謝謝昭緯報告昭緯在進行詢答之前有個議事程序也是要提醒昭緯那今天當然是沒有報告但是是要補充資料這個已經是形同書面報告是要列入公報這個請主秘依照議事程序來做處理以上那請陳主委好陳主委請"},{"start":8518.707,"end":8541.236,"text":"主委民眾對於電信網路的相關詐欺的案件一直深惡痛絕也造成民眾財產的相關的這些重大的損失我們來看NCC所提供相關的資料就是2023打詐的一些措施的成效當然攔阻有1850萬通的境外篡改的電話"},{"start":8545.337,"end":8557.222,"text":"也攔阻了大概800萬封惡意的簡訊這些只是在過去交通委員會我們具體的要求對國際來話的這種語音警示之後國際的來話數減少了這種95%"},{"start":8564.249,"end":8571.177,"text":"男主虛假的這種國際漫遊的電話也達到70%以上那採取我看NCC也有針對這種客戶確認就是KYC沒有落實KYC相關業者這個案件採取了20件"},{"start":8581.129,"end":8601.725,"text":"那也裁判了兩千多萬元那行政檢查39次那我們也看到呼斯科也有相關的這些統計的這些數據不過我們要提醒主委就是說我們針對這種電信網路的詐欺的他還是迅速的成長當然這三年來我們來看地檢署的"},{"start":8602.305,"end":8602.886,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":8627.156,"end":8627.956,"text":"報告委員關於這個電信還有網路詐欺的這個"},{"start":8657.028,"end":8657.268,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":8672.293,"end":8693.011,"text":"當然這個部分就剛才也有我已經提到現在面臨還有另外一個比較新型態就是AI的這個部分那這個部分我們會繼續努力也跟這個檢調機關這邊相關配合透過這個所謂AI的這個部分可以去繼續去壓制降低這個所謂的犯罪的這個建樹那除了以外來講就很重要的是"},{"start":8693.652,"end":8707.621,"text":"我們向來的做法第一個就是救援處理就是說把這些相關的攔阻或警示第二個就是所謂的透過落實KYC的部分就是下游的這些管制請電信業者就這個相關的這些所謂的"},{"start":8713.905,"end":8726.772,"text":"另外一個在關於簡訊的部分我們也是請那個大的電信那個所謂的手機業者包括Google包括那個Apple就這個部分來講的話主委剛才提到KYC嘛就是客戶確認這個部分"},{"start":8731.395,"end":8753.604,"text":"這個部分我覺得是螺絲已經鬆動了我們看看近期海峽電信跟魔方移動他們都是屬於二類的電信事業成豬網路、電信的訊號提供給民眾服務看海峽電信他的這些所販售的號碼是中華電信所發配的"},{"start":8755.184,"end":8774.789,"text":"這一種海峽電信提供給7間的企業客戶8350個門號都沒有落實KYC那這個部分當然NCC有做相關的這個裁罰那某方移動也是一樣那我們對於電信業者的KYC的這個責任"},{"start":8776.269,"end":8797.358,"text":"有沒有進一步的規範措施這個是要保障民眾權利一個很重要的關鍵我們根據電信管理法的授權我們去訂定這個電信失業用戶號碼使用管理辦法當然這個我們大概在這個月底以前會讓它實施在此之前來講我們已經跟電信業者包括MMO就是原來傳統一類電信業者"},{"start":8799.239,"end":8824.394,"text":"還有其他的這些所謂的原來的二類電信業者共同去努力把這些相關的KYCC要求它下降尤其是我們對於所謂MMO就是對於像中華電信、臺科大、遠傳這邊他們也都是要求他們極力去配合那他們也是很努力去處理現在比較麻煩的一個相關的議題是說除了我們本國的這個電話號碼以外還包括有一些來自於境外的像這些所謂的"},{"start":8825.495,"end":8850.89,"text":"黑莓卡或其他這個部分我們會繼續努力這個部分我們還是要加強相關的來電的辨識要落實KYC客戶確認我這邊要提醒主委我們相關的886-0-8的這個開頭現在是可以直接的攔阻但是886-9的這個電話可能是詐騙集團也有可能是國外親友所發達的這個電話"},{"start":8852.611,"end":8869.189,"text":"那這個部分我們應該跟民間的來電辨識業者來合作對於這些啊境外來電建立資料庫來進一步啊與外國的來電來進行辨識避免民眾受騙針對8869的這個電話的這相關有可能是詐騙也有可能是親友國際親友打來"},{"start":8875.414,"end":8896.906,"text":"來這個我們如何做進一步的處理這個基本在技術上來講的確8869有正常的化物存在不過的確透過我們這個警示以後來講的話這個詐騙的訊息有下降那這裡有一個很重要的觀點就是說那AI我們現在將來講話的部分來講很容易被AI這個所重置的這個部分來講我們會繼續努力去處理這個議題"},{"start":8900.649,"end":8913.837,"text":"我們要強化客戶確認KYC的電信業者的責任必須要加強行政的指導跟集合從外部督導各電信業者要求業者增強內部的控管機制"},{"start":8914.778,"end":8942.418,"text":"而要加強對於電信業者的相關的規範必須要要求業者針對所販售的對象事先的資格審查事後的定期檢查以及網路的零售要資訊接到來這個部分我們必須要有更進一步的作為我們這個都是在努力作為當中那我們對電信業者來講的話我們都會加強那行政指導而且對電信業者落實KYC我們也會不定期的去督導"},{"start":8943.038,"end":8965.078,"text":"那另外我們也請我們區處去查詢有些相關的這些比如在網路上販售的這個議題這些來源的這個所謂的電話卡到底是不是我們電信業者所發出的或者是說由從國外來這邊處理我們這個事前的檢查事後的稽查還有相關的這個定期或不定期的這些網路的檢查這個必須要加強相關的作用最後的時間我要請教一下"},{"start":8966.559,"end":8979.891,"text":"我們在2018針對3G的相關的特定的執照以及相關的這個服務就號稱要終止了那到今年6月就要全面的關閉那全面的關閉那"},{"start":8981.713,"end":9001.109,"text":"就要改用啊模體的相關的這種語音號稱是比較高音質的高品質的這種通訊那還是會有部分的用戶啊受到影響那我們看到這種模體的這種手機的普及啊大概目前是94%其實還有6%的民眾啊手機還沒有辦法支援"},{"start":9005.512,"end":9032.683,"text":"那3G的用戶數啊全國的3G的網路用戶數啊大概還有74萬3921我們以偏鄉地區來說啦遠傳就評估他們偏鄉地區還有4192戶那相關的其他兩大電信業者有多少還有其他的這些長輩銀髮族所使用的這種3G的手機啊都會受到影響那因為3G基地台關閉啊"},{"start":9033.863,"end":9041.005,"text":"沒有換手機的人會受到影響,無法使用語音的通話,NCC有什麼對應的措施?他們的規格也不太一樣"},{"start":9054.548,"end":9056.789,"text":"三G的落日相關措施我們還是要加強當然當然要督導電信業者提供合理優惠的方案來更換這些Volti的手機跟方案"},{"start":9082.805,"end":9108.317,"text":"那也跟里長去進行實地的宣導因為長輩或是偏鄉要協助偏鄉跟高齡的這些長輩要去做處理那偏鄉地區的落日時間是不是能夠是當地的普及率再去順眼調整順眼3G的這種相關的關台對我們當時來講也是考慮剛才那個委員所講的所以那個是第一就是6月30號嘛"},{"start":9109.517,"end":9133.069,"text":"那如果說有特殊的狀況比如偏鄉的建設或者有一些是可能涉及到軍事用途或者基礎建設的這個還有需要3G網路這個部分這個我們也讓業者是暫時可以不用關閉他們先關閉初期是先把關閉我們對於偏鄉跟長輩的我們希望透過這個過渡期間臨沖擊要趕快協助他們轉到貨車的部分那我們要參考日本跟韓國"},{"start":9134.13,"end":9153.077,"text":"去調整各自的4G、5G網路規格的逐步達成這種MOTI的語音互通的目標這也是NCC重要的一個責任這是我們目前當中最重要的責任 謝謝好 謝謝我們昆德州委現在會請徐富奎委員發言"},{"start":9163.711,"end":9173.076,"text":"謝主席,有請陳主委好,陳主委請委員好"},{"start":9173.878,"end":9191.932,"text":"主委本席過去也在媒體服務那我想新聞媒體的自由絕對是應該中立不受到政治干預那我們NCC作為一個獨立機關客觀中立的處理媒體還有傳播事業的一個規範我想這是應該主委跟我們團隊這個應該堅守的一個原則"},{"start":9195.774,"end":9223.484,"text":"主委剛剛委員會有表決通過了一個譴責案也有一個所謂的一個調閱小組那針對這個事情主委本身有什麼看法?包委員基本上就鑑定是這個部分我們在上屆上個會期來講的話當然已經進行了5次的那個專案報告那今天是這個部分來講的話當然當時當然因為他們可能公司治理內部的這些股東或者是說有一些不同的那個對公司治理這邊的爭論"},{"start":9224.864,"end":9241.389,"text":"那NCC作為一個獨立機關我們本來就不會去介入所謂公私不同之間對整個公私經營權的這種所謂的爭議或者爭奪也好那這個才是我們獨立機關應該要去做的就是說尊重言論自由尊重新聞自由的前提下去處理這個議題"},{"start":9242.95,"end":9268.92,"text":"那我想主委也有多次表達說7月份任期到了之後就不再續任那我想主委跟團隊也要繼續加油我想這個部分我想國人對我們NCC有很大的期待那本席接著要針對所謂的一個詐騙的部分再請教一下主委就剛剛之前我們有多位委員有提到所謂一個魔方移動跟中華電信的一個關係那這部分"},{"start":9270.18,"end":9296.267,"text":"NCC的調查的狀況到底是怎麼一回事我們關於這個魔方這個議題來講的話這個是在我覺得是雲林地檢在查這相關的詐騙案裡面所查出的另外一個部分那魔方這個部分來講的話這可能涉及這個國際漫遊卡這個議題我們也找相關的像中華電信這可能有魔方這可能是不是企客關係那對他們這個KYC的落實有沒有去清查那為什麼會發生這種事情"},{"start":9296.747,"end":9311.358,"text":"那對於這個檢調機關的這些查詢的部分來講我們也像中華電信也好像魔方也好我們都請他說明那至於因為有一些是屬於所謂偵查不公開的部分那我們相關也沒有所有的手頭資料所以我們目前進行的是用行政調查"},{"start":9312.119,"end":9332.209,"text":"主委那我們是不是在2021年已經廢止了它的許可沒有那個模仿以前是基本上來講是我們當原來的電信法裡面有說一類電信跟二類電信的分類方法後來我們電信管理法以後這個分類已經沒有了那所以說原來的這些二類電信業者以前是要我們許可制現在變成採自願登記制"},{"start":9335.252,"end":9344.285,"text":"本期還是要求我們NCC趕快調查清楚我想大家對這個都有一些的疑慮那應該要對外解釋清楚避免大家產生一個誤解"},{"start":9345.236,"end":9366.154,"text":"那針對所謂的這個詐騙的案件那電信業者我想也很無辜的表達說他們其實有很多的門號最後成為我們詐騙集團一個犯罪的工具那多位檢察官也表達對NCC跟電信業者的不滿認為我們電信業者沒有做好所謂一個把關的動作那甚至有檢察官反映說"},{"start":9367.975,"end":9382.927,"text":"去年的一月到三月我們大陸來台的觀光客僅有兩萬九千多人但是國內五大變性業者提供給大陸人士來台的一個漫遊門號竟然高達一百萬隻以上那這個狀況我們NCC了解的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":9383.867,"end":9407.674,"text":"各位報告一下這個我們在商會其實說也說明清楚就是說基本上那個統計數字來講的話應該沒有那麼多的數量那可能是說因為比如說漫遊進來他可能會漫遊到中華電信也同時可能會漫遊到台客大或是那個遠傳因為他會移動嘛所以這個部分來講很多都是所謂重複計算的問題我們這個去年的報告裡面也有說到這個部分那我們希望"},{"start":9408.475,"end":9414.291,"text":"像這種情況有沒有可以詐騙集團去申辦這個門號的部分我們都配合檢調機關去處理"},{"start":9416.176,"end":9441.347,"text":"我想因為這個打詐也是我們現在當然國安問題那我想檢調也披於半面那NCC作為我們的一個主管機關也應該要負起應該相關的責任那我想目前我還是要提醒我們的NCC那我們過去三年針對我們電信業者違規販賣門號的裁發案件才22件那所以造成檢察官也有很多的詐陰跟不滿"},{"start":9442.267,"end":9456.8,"text":"那所謂NCC針對所謂的一個大量販售門號的SOP的部分是不是有一個怎麼樣具體的一個作為我們是依照電信管理法還有以前那個關於這些所謂原來的二類這不是依照原來的電信法去採訪"},{"start":9458.702,"end":9478.914,"text":"簡單來講就是說他沒有落實KYC造成這個所謂的有可能有這種詐欺案子被這個電話號碼被用到詐欺的手段裡面去我們有去進行採取比如說以前我們那個臺灣之心我們才採取1600萬以上所以這個部分來講我們還是會下說只要他違規事實情節清楚而且有確實的證據我們還會還是予以重罰"},{"start":9481.977,"end":9490.777,"text":"主委那這部分是不是我們在兩個月之內給本席的辦公室一個完整的檢討報告我們這個給委員這部分我想我們國人大家都很關心"},{"start":9492.182,"end":9521.517,"text":"那另外在針對上個禮拜或針對我們的這個遠距醫療的部分我們有請教過我們數位部的唐部長那我想今天也請教一下主委那因為對對外來講我們都跟國人講說我們5G的涵蓋率非常的高到達96%但是根據本席的了解我們屏東的涵蓋率確實是沒有一個很明顯的一個數字那我請教一下主委屏東目前的涵蓋率大概是有多少"},{"start":9522.117,"end":9545.499,"text":"跟委員報告就是說基本上來講是都會地區還是偏鄉地區我們屏東也不全部都是所謂的偏鄉比如說以屏東市來講它也是都會地區那各地有各地不同的涵蓋率那剛才委員所關心的這個遠距醫療我實際是去過小琉球去看過其實它專門遠距醫療在電信業者跟我們地方的這個衛生主管機關在通力合作之下有一個不錯的成果"},{"start":9545.999,"end":9570.116,"text":"那這個部分來講為什麼5G的涵蓋率會比較那個就是說勝率會比較低那是因為5G的特性跟實際不太一樣5G基本上來講它的頻寬的比較大所以很適合做這種所謂智慧醫療或是智慧相關智慧程式的這個運用那這個涵蓋率的部分來講的話我們會請我們的那個同仁把這個涵蓋率如果委員有這個需要我們提供給委員了解"},{"start":9570.816,"end":9590.182,"text":"這部分還是要請主委跟我們團隊要加油因為看起來目前的滲透率才差不多三成左右那我想對於我們這個屏東這個很多偏鄉的來講這個遠距醫療是非常重要的一個需求這部分要請主委跟我們數位部我們一起來努力強化這個部分"},{"start":9592.048,"end":9606.569,"text":"那本席也調閱了各個業者自己做的4G跟5G一個信號涵蓋率的地區那看起來屏東縣幾乎還是4G居多啦跟我們所謂的這個高5G的高涵蓋率還是有落差那這部分"},{"start":9608.011,"end":9633.798,"text":"請問主委怎麼樣再要求我們業者再強化這部分是不是可以給我們的辦公室一個兩個月之間一個完整的一個說明我們會督促業者尤其在偏鄉有比較遠距醫療需求或在其他有關於這個所謂資訊應用的部分我們會督促業者持續加強這個建設當然有些現在很多的這個所謂的關鍵基礎設施這部分已經移到數位部去但我們會數位部共同合作來處理對"},{"start":9635.138,"end":9635.378,"text":"謝謝徐副委員"},{"start":9665.106,"end":9667.108,"text":"下一位請徐曉欣委員發言謝謝主席,我們想請陳耀祥主委好,陳主委請"},{"start":9688.609,"end":9707.667,"text":"大家好各位你好今天大家都非常關心這個中天換照案那根據台北高等行政法院判案CC敗訴的部分主要原因是因為你們當初沒有準用2018年的評分表剛才在質詢過程當中你們說有一百多個案子都是用舊的評分表那請問你們這個心得要幹嘛"},{"start":9708.027,"end":9711.869,"text":"臺北高等行政法院的判決不是我個人的見解所以我想要問的是是不是有一百多個案子都是這樣子的"},{"start":9734.218,"end":9754.572,"text":"我們所有的評分表都一樣的沒有我們問的是說用所謂的舊的評分表您瞭解我的意思就好您瞭解我的意思就好這個評分表你們當時所使用去評中天的這個評分表一百多個案子都這樣所以其他一百多個案子他們未來也有可能對你們展開行政訴訟對吧"},{"start":9757.754,"end":9782.647,"text":"當初誰決定要用這份評分表的在政治責任來說是陳耀祥主委您本人決定要您使用這個評分表用原本的配分是你個人決定的嗎是哪一位委員決定要這麼做的這個基本上就是我們本會都共同討論所以這評分表都一樣七位委員共同討論在哪一天的開會做出的決議我們本來就有這個內部的評分表嘛"},{"start":9784.309,"end":9791.457,"text":"誰決定?因為你們有兩種版本,誰決定用這種版本的?是您還是其他的委員?具體討論的時間是什麼時候決定的?誰決定的?我問的問題是這個"},{"start":9800.368,"end":9815.083,"text":"你有決定這件事嗎?你有同意這件事嗎?所以你的意思是說7位NCC的委員大家共同決定要採取這份評分表那請問是在哪一次會議上面大家共同決議的?我們在109年11月18日那個委員會就決定"},{"start":9821.769,"end":9849.943,"text":"了解了那我們在開庭的過程當中我們發現一件事情來我們來看一下開庭的筆錄為什麼NCC要阻擋中天來越卷啊你們一直到了在法院上面的時候來法官問本件從原告109年6月8號申請換照到109年11月18號委員會決議這段期間原告從來沒有越過卷嗎申請了三次越卷NCC當時不同意的理由是什麼"},{"start":9850.782,"end":9858.907,"text":"對方向你申請月券然後你不同意後來在法被法官打臉有沒有這件事情來那對方當時跟你申請月券的理由是什麼所以為什麼法官會很訝異說人家向你月券你竟然不准一直到了開庭之後那才"},{"start":9877.777,"end":9890.692,"text":"准許人家來閱卷是不是有這回事所以NCC當中天來申請的時候是拒絕的等到到了法院之後法官允許有沒有這個過程後來閱卷了沒有"},{"start":9894.295,"end":9913.989,"text":"你也掌握不清楚你竟然問應該這個案子社會的關注這麼高你竟然只是應該所以這個過程我再論述一次就是在當時NCC三次中天三次向NCC希望能夠閱卷而NCC不同意一直到了法院裡面法官很驚訝的問沒有閱過卷嗎然後呢對方說申請了三次被告都沒有給閱"},{"start":9918.752,"end":9943.935,"text":"那所以這個後來法官才給予月券是不是有這回事這個個案的申請裡面來講他本來就提起輸送他月券我們當然是先把券給法官嘛應該是這樣處理沒有錯如果是這樣法官就不會這麼驚訝了再來我們問一下如果按照這個NCC院不願意按照未來法院的見解讓新任的委員以2018年的評分表重新評斷中天是否能夠換照"},{"start":9944.796,"end":9965.985,"text":"這是合議制委員討論的問題這不是我個人能夠決定的所以未來會不會討論這個主題如果未來看未來的情況去處理那NCC如果敗訴定業的話要怎麼把52台還給對方你們怎麼知道明知對方還在跟你打官司你也不一定會贏的情況下就草草把52台給別人有沒有評估方案若最後NCC敗訴中天該怎麼樣還給"},{"start":9968.746,"end":9979.152,"text":"所謂新聞台這個是頻道這是所謂系統業者他就是認為你不應該撤他的照那你必須要把52台那還給他的過程當中NCC該怎麼處理有沒有評估你們目前有沒有評估如果官司輸掉的話要怎麼處理"},{"start":9987.236,"end":10001.765,"text":"目前NCC完全沒有評估如果本案定宴的話要如何處理這件事情是因為你已經要去學校院教了所以你就不想要再管接下來的人要怎麼做了嗎這是一種非常不負責任的想法所以今天才會有這麼多的委員站出來譴責你還用表決的方式通過這個是這是你NCC根本就是政治的首勝要有最後一類的問題請問你們有沒有常常叫媒體去寫報告"},{"start":10015.954,"end":10040.402,"text":"你們有沒有曾經在讓羅世宏在2022年的1月26號到東森電視台上課建議東森的政論節目要參考三立的做法去做這邊新聞自立的問題還有倫理委員會的問題這是內部的問題啊我問你的是你們有沒有在2022年的1月26日請羅世宏到東森新聞去上課建議東森新聞的政論節目要參考三立去做"},{"start":10040.922,"end":10049.706,"text":"基本上來講新聞他們要如何製作新聞是一個問題這個部分來講有沒有不曉得委員會去上課我沒有回避問題阿我不曉得羅世宏委員有沒有叫他們去上課阿我們NCC不會去請教說是幫誰上課沒有這回事請你們有沒有請他說要維持所謂的新聞的多元所以讓羅世宏去當天去東森上課"},{"start":10067.894,"end":10078.76,"text":"這是我們有非常確定的我會把相關的資訊再提供給你們有很多的媒體都在抱怨你們叫他寫報告一年請媒體寫幾次報告請問你們一年發函多少次給包含電視台跟廣播請他們寫報告給NCC我們統計數據是多少次一年有幾件"},{"start":10094.088,"end":10115.266,"text":"沒有,那就看委員所謂報告的定義是什麼就是你們發函請他寫報告回覆你們,一年有幾件?這個有時候我們要統計數字,這有時候是廣電自行會議你們平常沒有統計是嗎?因為這個部分來講的話本來就不在我們裁判,這不是屬於裁判的部分不是屬於裁判的部分,我問的是你們一年有幾件這樣子的情況,不知道嗎?這個是溝通的問題嘛,所以我們沒有對,溝通我想問你們是件數"},{"start":10117.806,"end":10118.626,"text":"好 謝謝徐曉欣委員的發言"},{"start":10146.676,"end":10164.125,"text":"下一位請羅志祥委員發言主席有請主委好請主委你好"},{"start":10165.27,"end":10187.796,"text":"我要恭喜主委成為我們的立法院被譴責的一個NCC主委我剛剛聽徐小姐質詢你你就說這是政治干預嘛 對不對那你關新聞台就不叫政治干預立法委員依職權來譴責你叫政治干預沒有關係好 我想請教你一樣延續上次質詢陳建仁院長的問題"},{"start":10190.151,"end":10207.307,"text":"我們陳水扁前總統說政府不該關新聞台他非常不認同您的做法請問您您認同政府該關新聞台嗎我們是依法去處理這個問題大院的法律這麼受求我們就有換照制度去處理我一樣延續問陳建仁院長答不出的問題請問他認不認同政府關新聞台"},{"start":10211.55,"end":10229.258,"text":"他那天回答是不認同你站在旁邊沒有關係我就問齁我就要問齁你講的就依法行政嘛依法行政嘛那我問齁國民黨執政時候的報禁解除報禁也有法律依據啊為什麼要解除那當時的所謂的報禁的法律呢為什麼"},{"start":10230.267,"end":10257.662,"text":"委員國民黨支持的時期年代綜合台被關掉喔年代綜合台被關掉我要跟你講政府不該關新聞台就是新聞自由的鐵則我接下來想請教您齁您今天腐爛的運用您的換照的權利最後結果就導致新聞台被關沒有關係我要請教您齁請問廣播電視業者在選舉開票期間有沒有出現過度灌票的情形"},{"start":10258.602,"end":10271.863,"text":"有沒有去調查我們有進去調查調查你當時省紀部說這過度灌票情形請你們NCC來督促改進你給那個省紀部的回答是什麼"},{"start":10274.343,"end":10275.224,"text":"我們平常就落實在監理制度上"},{"start":10304.264,"end":10332.989,"text":"事實上在NCC的換照負擔你根本沒提這件事沒錯吧我告訴你我也懂你啦你回應審計不一回事啊但是真的要落實的時候你就裝死嘛接下來我想請教您請問您這個你按照當時把中天關掉有一樣標準嘛好幾樣嘛一個理由是中天違規過多申訴過多嘛對不對"},{"start":10333.903,"end":10342.105,"text":"這是其中之一那我想請教您請問2022年根據NCC統治民眾投訴最多是哪一個新聞台我告訴您民視新聞台141次跟台灣台是吧那我想請問您民視去年7月成功換照換照期間2017到2023年一共被裁罰幾次多少錢"},{"start":10361.465,"end":10367.854,"text":"我們統計資料那個18次740萬元好我想請問您您裁罰中天是25件1153萬元不予換照嘛對不對是那我想請問你以目前現階段中天勝訴幾件"},{"start":10377.425,"end":10385.351,"text":"你告了25件現階段現階段勝訴8件你搞什麼再審再去搞的我告訴你你目前我講現階段審及勝訴你不要跟我講最後終極判決我跟你講8件是360萬以目前你目前現階段就是這樣扣掉以後先不講25件你現在扣掉這8件17件793萬"},{"start":10407.125,"end":10407.745,"text":"所以我沒上書啊"},{"start":10432.179,"end":10438.064,"text":"那只是說評分表大家有爭論嗎?你連個評分表的標準都可以搞不定就是你們NCC基本上根本不稱職我知道啦今天事實上按照NCC主委陳耀祥的論點反正陳水扁也不對啦反正高層行政法院也不對啦八屆目前現階段勝訴的都不算數啦"},{"start":10460.541,"end":10475.552,"text":"就你偉大的陳耀祥,議法院譴責你也不算數就你偉大的陳耀祥,你今天愛怎麼辦就怎麼辦你乾脆直接把所有新聞台,你說你高興關誰就關誰啊好,謝謝羅志祥委員的發言蕭若晴、蔡其昌副院長發言"},{"start":10498.899,"end":10511.706,"text":"謝謝主席請陳主委主委好主委好山雞6月30"},{"start":10514.787,"end":10516.949,"text":"我看了一下數字應該還有七十幾萬戶這裡面大概殭屍用戶有多少"},{"start":10539.001,"end":10551.931,"text":"就是簡單講他門號還在但事實上根本也沒在使用了這可能要請那個電信業者來統計他的數字了因為這個部分來講的話到底有沒有用這個因為有一些是涉及到他們的營業秘密的問題我提一下這問題是因為這個權益的問題啦就是說"},{"start":10555.374,"end":10573.43,"text":"對於很多可能那個位置或許是比較中低收入或者是偏鄉這個權益的照顧上面NCC一定要特別去關注到這些使用者的權益接下來今天本席還是要跟你討論一下那個電話簡訊詐騙"},{"start":10578.275,"end":10605.371,"text":"政府為了防止詐騙我們推出了識別碼111換言之政府以後發的簡訊民眾只要收到短碼11就是政府認證這條絕對不會騙這個是絕對真的不是詐騙其他現在大型的這些民間企業使用短碼的比例高不高"},{"start":10606.529,"end":10629.908,"text":"電信業者他們使用都有他們個別的短碼對對對三大電信有各自的短碼那是企業其他企業客戶裡面有沒有短碼有些也是有但是就是說沒有統一的這個短碼沒關係就是說我想請問你就是說譬如說銀行業來講因為銀行啊常常要發簡訊給他的客戶譬如說你的信用卡沒有繳啦或者我要跟你"},{"start":10630.929,"end":10645.546,"text":"做聯絡啦對保啦帳戶什麼有什麼問題信用卡有什麼問題啊所以銀行我常譬如說以我個人來講我常常會收到銀行發給我的簡訊那銀行目前啊用短訊這個銀行有幾家"},{"start":10647.773,"end":10648.853,"text":"扣掉政府的111之外"},{"start":10676.018,"end":10699.831,"text":"你認為全台灣現在企業用短碼的比例大概多高10%有沒有企業如果是銀行就不止10%啦銀行大部分都踩短碼對要看個別的產業的形態不一樣像計程車它搞不好它有短碼對計程車是一個嘛因為我覺得計程車大概會主動發訊息給民眾的機會低啦就是說"},{"start":10700.831,"end":10723.401,"text":"我們會詐騙是因為我收到了比如說第一個可能大量來源是政府機關嘛他告訴我我的稅有問題我的什麼信用卡被盜刷等等叫我跟法院聯絡跟檢察官聯絡跟什麼警察局聯絡嘛這一個叫政府的簡訊第二個簡訊就來自於大型的企業比如說銀行比如說"},{"start":10724.982,"end":10728.725,"text":"你覺得大概要多久?大概全面都有短碼?"},{"start":10752.588,"end":10779.586,"text":"要全面都有短碼因為是涉及到比如說每個因為這個要統一每個有這個產業比如說像我記得那個台客大就變成現在叫935那個中華電信可能是188這個連電信業者他們都還沒有一個統一所以那個可能速度沒有辦法那麼快但是我們會盡快去處理就是說其實它叫什麼碼我沒有關係比如說金管會以後可以統一宣導六碼以下的要短碼只要你是短碼都是真的"},{"start":10781.211,"end":10798.11,"text":"這個民眾啊這個在電信那個那個行政院的防詐平台裡面我沒有提出來這個去處理這個問題對對我的意思只是問說進度到哪裡比例有多高進度到哪裡什麼時候可以達到幾乎都做這樣子這個"},{"start":10800.969,"end":10819.417,"text":"來,我們請我們主秘來跟委員長講一下好,來跟委員報告,因為在通訊解碼這一塊我們大概已經跟在監管會這部分,找監管會來還有銀行業、保險業這部分我們大概已經談定那因為跟電信業這邊兩邊的話必須要就這一個因為通訊解碼你必須要所有業者都承認這個解碼才行"},{"start":10820.497,"end":10820.637,"text":"中華電信銀行"},{"start":10839.864,"end":10867.679,"text":"建立民眾的信任所以這份信任產業部分我們會再努力其實我的理解很簡單因為政府做了111嘛所以我們其實很好宣導政府發放你的你若沒有看到簡訊的開頭是111這都假的我們在農村在鄉下很好跟這些長輩解釋但是你現在除了政府之外其他的我很難解釋"},{"start":10869.042,"end":10890.695,"text":"所以我的意思是說你防詐裡面很簡單嘛你就已經你技術上沒有問題嘛那你也應該很積極相關業務當譬如金管會跟銀行之間保險啊等等或者常常需要發簡訊給客戶的行業他應該要快速趕快來溝通讓他建立起所以下一個階段我的宣導很簡單嘛"},{"start":10892.475,"end":10912.814,"text":"六碼以下叫短碼不是短碼的你都要注意這個可能都詐騙或者短碼六碼短碼以下的通通是不會詐騙啊這樣我們才有辦法宣導啦不然你在那裡漏漏騰在那裡宣導防詐喔那很困難的嘛那科技再走我們要趕快嘛速度嘛就政府做了一一這是好事"},{"start":10913.755,"end":10936.643,"text":"但是做一一算了這些大型的企業我們應該想辦法看是要怎麼透過政策法規怎麼來讓他們快速跟上嘛因為齁這個東西都是沒有效率啦他不做其實都沒有效率嘛就是我以後只要一開始宣導說那個很重的那些都假的他以後發簡訊都是無效簡訊因為不會有人理他嘛"},{"start":10937.762,"end":10961.057,"text":"不會讓人家去點啦希望卡真的有問題你發簡訊也沒用啊反正他也不會去點啊所以對企業的營運來講他都發一大堆無效的簡訊這樣主委理事長我的意思是詐騙還是重中之重這個民眾每天生活在可能隨時被詐騙的環境當中這個是人民的苦啊"},{"start":10962.809,"end":10971.98,"text":"這個比比比你其他NCC的業務啊比剛剛啊那些靜電視啦什麼電視啊民眾的感受他是每一天他都要面對這個問題所以這個問題其實"},{"start":10975.868,"end":10992.413,"text":"一定要把它列為非常重要的當然我講這個不是說只有你的因為這個其實要行政院各部會一起來做嘛但是站在NCC的立場上我們怎麼積極的把民眾的苦把這個所謂台灣的心傷害這個詐騙"},{"start":10994.474,"end":11021.866,"text":"要怎麼來處理我覺得這個其實是非常重要我們會努力這個議題我就會持續關心怎麼樣來做是對民眾來講它是最有效我們在宣導上怎麼樣的方式是最有效以後只要大家都短碼那就很簡單嘛你NCC的宣導也不用那麼累啊警政署的宣導也不用那麼累啊就是直接講不是短碼的都有疑慮啦所以以後他不發短碼他很辛苦嘛"},{"start":11022.986,"end":11027.888,"text":"我覺得要逼大家啦,快一點好,謝謝蔡吉章副院長,謝謝接下來請林德福委員發言"},{"start":11050.584,"end":11058.234,"text":"謝謝主委、謝謝召委是不是請NCC主任委員陳主委陳主委請"},{"start":11063.883,"end":11090.074,"text":"委員好主委我請教因為現在NCC有7位委員中其中有4個人將於7月底任命那其中包括NCC主委您本人那依行政院必須在3個月前提名新任的委員送交國會來行使人事同意權後任命但法條也另外有明定NCC委員任期屆滿未能依規定"},{"start":11090.894,"end":11119.063,"text":"提任時,原任的委員之任期得延至新任委員就職前的一日為止,不受四年期限的限制。那假設這個立法院NCC委員提名審查難產,那沒有辦法產生新的委員,那我請問陳主委,您是否維持原來您的說法,7月底請辭返回校園教書?"},{"start":11120.435,"end":11122.077,"text":"那你要是難產的話你會不會直接就就直接就就一樣"},{"start":11136.896,"end":11138.357,"text":"照常回學校教宿內"},{"start":11160.986,"end":11182.38,"text":"根據媒體的報導包括印度當地的電信詐騙案平緩2019年8月到今天已接獲超過326萬報案大約半數發生在2023年尤其近期許多詐騙案中使用的人頭門號發現大部分都是外籍的移工"},{"start":11183.641,"end":11202.158,"text":"那招貿民來申請那民進黨政府打算引進印度的移工本席提醒NCC要做好把關防範各國移工涉入電話詐騙案件不要讓印度移工未來也成為詐騙的幫兇那個主委您的看法如何"},{"start":11202.859,"end":11204.58,"text":"根據NCC112年的通訊傳播市場報告調查顯示民眾轉換到5G的比例是25.5%"},{"start":11222.449,"end":11250.072,"text":"那未轉換比例有達到72.1%未轉換5G的原因就是70%認為說目前4G的服務已經足夠滿足需求那其次31%的人認為說5G的智慧費用叫4G高確實是如此我本人用5G差很多那既然前餐預算補助電信業者建設這些5G的基地台"},{"start":11250.592,"end":11270.613,"text":"是有補助他們喔業者也應該要回饋消費者對此本期希望NCC要替民眾爭取降掉5G的智慧就是會用不論是新客戶老客戶都要有更優惠5G的會用讓5G用戶來的生透力翻倍成長"},{"start":11271.863,"end":11286.855,"text":"主委您的看法呢我也是認為說這個5G即將邁入第5個第14年5年的這個情況來講那為什麼還那麼少人使用呢因為5G基本上來講它特性跟4G不太一樣5G基本上來講的話除了這個因為"},{"start":11288.376,"end":11294.358,"text":"我是認為應該站在NCC立場裡面因為它用那麼多基地台幾乎都是前瞻預算去補助然後補助以後你們等於是沒有回饋了但是確實是高很多啊"},{"start":11320.331,"end":11339.945,"text":"台北高等行政法院去年5月宣判撤銷NCC在民國109年間對中天新聞台做成不以換照的行政處分那眾所周知行政機關必須依法行政因此行政機關在行政訴訟中被判敗訴是很罕見的"},{"start":11341.286,"end":11349.533,"text":"媒體統計中天對NCC訴訟累積達到15勝15次也驗證過各界對NCC喪失獨立性以及迫害中天新聞台的質疑並非是空穴來風暫時NCC當年的做法有明顯的瑕疵"},{"start":11364.304,"end":11383.691,"text":"昨天到目前只有兩屆是簽署確定而已的其他大部分還是我們NCC申訴的你們在申訴但是那個時間都拉很長啦此外黨政軍退出媒體是全民的共識那靜電視也取得執照的過程屢傳爭議去年3月NCC主委你還因為靜電視執照被列為獨職罪"},{"start":11388.212,"end":11415.359,"text":"他自然的被告這個是立法會委員的檢舉啦但是我們沒有所謂的獨指的問題那個主委啊那因為你任期將屆案子卻還沒有水落石出加深啦全民對民進黨政府只有辦藍跟白不辦綠獨立機關濫用公權力譴制新聞自由那執行行政不中立的印象到目前為止都這樣喔"},{"start":11415.959,"end":11439.598,"text":"我覺得這個是媒體有意的操作不是媒體有意操作因為外界很多人都一直這麼認為所以說你們講NCC外界我聽到很多他們都說這是張CC不是NCC我希望主委你真的要好好的因為既然是要公平公正客觀不要就是"},{"start":11440.419,"end":11444.502,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":11471.415,"end":11488.793,"text":"來謝謝主席有請我們陳主委好主委請你好好陳主委那個螢幕呢螢幕螢幕沒有啊"},{"start":11491.448,"end":11511.775,"text":"陳主委我剛剛早上我們在這個成立釣魚小組的時候聽到你一席話我終於覺得任性到現在我們終於有共識了就是政治干預這四個字出來確實我這幾年就發覺NCC很強烈的政治操弄干預不是立法會員干預"},{"start":11513.456,"end":11526.932,"text":"你知道嗎?我們為什麼成立調閱小組?這個遲到了半年到一年的調閱小組終於成立了。原因是什麼?你今天提供我們什麼報告?半年你正式提供一次報告。我說我們徵你的業務報告。"},{"start":11533.761,"end":11554.103,"text":"年度大會的時候你跟我們委員會你那個報告簡單來說大家要關心的事項你在裡面幾乎是沒有什麼題那在你在回答我坦白講我從第一個聽到剛剛第12、13個你的回答"},{"start":11555.485,"end":11575.17,"text":"不過這個會議已經將近兩年了避重就輕了所以我是覺得如果真的有政治干預的話你想想看你十年前的陳耀祥是什麼概念你經過自由時報在採訪的時候這是我跟你認識第二次我就把這句話拿出來請教你今天非常可能是你的"},{"start":11576.47,"end":11598.747,"text":"這個會期 你的畢業會期齁你說什麼話我們形式上 台灣形式上是民主社會但實際上黨國體制的幽靈是蠢蠢欲動一有機會就跑出來危害整個民主社會最可怕的是黨國意識形態透過教育哇108課綱嗎還媒體不斷的複製就像河水一樣"},{"start":11602.33,"end":11624.846,"text":"如果一直加入有毒物質就一直擴散這是一種思想的汙染你這句話是我第二個認同你的我發覺坦白講這幾年我們看到的就是這樣啊你自己如果就到這個會期你就結束了我真的是覺得你好好去想想你說了什麼話"},{"start":11626.36,"end":11648.997,"text":"好 既然你當主委嘛 有兩個代表座 代表座 第一個是中天撤照 這是你第一個代表座不予換照反正中天不予換照撤照記者會 你們在記者會都說什麼咧你保證嘛 沒有政治力介入 7位鑑定人想法一致 對不對這是你們的說法"},{"start":11651.14,"end":11655.322,"text":"好,你不知道什麼是綠營的背景啊但是有一種"},{"start":11670.086,"end":11697.164,"text":"要務叫做時間時間可以證明很多東西當時的七位你不知道他有什麼綠營背景的人這前三位第一位是在去年擔任民進黨中央黨部去年前的仲裁委員第二位第三位平步青雲戰功顯赫已經變成民進黨不分區的立委做我們這一屆的同事嘛所以"},{"start":11697.924,"end":11716.343,"text":"我覺得這個國家NCC交給你你好像一個小白兔一樣已經這麼明顯了你還可以眼睛瞪得很直在那邊鬼扯另外四位呢那當然有聲率的那有兩位呢華視公視的董事誰派的大家親知肚明第一正確的獨立董事"},{"start":11717.774,"end":11745.385,"text":"所以你說的這個話第一個代表作這七位所謂聽證的鑑定人就是在你的眼中是非常中立的沒有藍綠的背景是還是不是是啊到現在還是嘛到目前為止沒有那個啊好就是兩位已經被民進黨立委了我們怎麼知道他們兩位現在會被民進黨的部分組也不知道這個我們這個調會的小組成立的太重要了"},{"start":11745.965,"end":11751.183,"text":"因為你從頭鬼扯到尾嘛這就是中天的一個情況再來看看"},{"start":11752.898,"end":11781.948,"text":"對於生難生慮你怎麼處理你一直講獨立嘛你一直講你中立嘛你一直講你公正但是這要展現在你所有的行政的處分跟態度上面三立宗家案你現在的處理我平常講輿論不滿意的非常非常多當然宗家案處分三立齁是限期改正嘛對不對競電事我整整跟你講了一年嘛所有的交通委員跟你講了一整年啊"},{"start":11782.948,"end":11799.118,"text":"結果他在選舉前開政論節目你們叫限期改正不要鬧笑話選舉都結束了這個本來我們法律就規定這樣子我們只能這樣去處理不是那你NCC沒人在鳥你你沒有覺得很痛苦嗎"},{"start":11799.878,"end":11821.376,"text":"所以我要是你我都覺得很痛苦你知道嗎你的負擔人家不理你你的所有的負擔條款違反了這麼多你也弄不了它所以很多的問題都這樣的好那我想今天再請教你做個結論看看你對中天、三立、靜電視你的態度的差別這也當作你畢業畢業的幾大傑作這個你們"},{"start":11827.785,"end":11851.059,"text":"NCC1103次委員會第3案就討論到宗家三立這個案子那其中是不是有兩位委員提供了一部不同意的意見書 有沒有所以你怕 你很怕立法委員去干預你委員的獨立性啊 請問兩位委員"},{"start":11852.6,"end":11853.14,"text":"他們認為說這個是垂直整合的問題"},{"start":11868.786,"end":11890.567,"text":"但是問題是說我們目前所查到資料山栗是山栗的大股東而且這個部分來講的話他到底是業務的投資還是什麼這個有沒有依照那個比例算起來不知道現在還是不知道是業務的投資不知道是什麼他的投資的比例根本沒有達到所謂的垂直融合的哇全國聽NCG我想不是主委啦那下面這些的官員啦"},{"start":11891.488,"end":11916.242,"text":"真的也是非常可悲啦 人家提的有沒有道理 這不是我提的嘛 黑紫白色我想這不是我提的兩位委員的不同意見書 主要意見是什麼 他講的有道理嘛 他為什麼呢你不能說一個人騙我們 或他不老實 他已經違規違法了他做不能做的事情 只是因為他騙了我三年 我不知道"},{"start":11917.205,"end":11926.957,"text":"所以在這三年我本來知道不該給他的那我也給了那你現在事後知道了你要不要處理他的意見就是這樣109年107年就開始齁"},{"start":11932.915,"end":11958.351,"text":"我們三立反正透過多層次入主宗家反正你們也查了嘛也違規違法了嘛這就不要講囉他的意思是說你到了112年9月立法院委員提出檢舉之後你才知道這件事情這兩位委員的意思就是說哎喲他不能110年他已經幹了這個事情然後三立財經移平通過110年12月"},{"start":11961.193,"end":11980.171,"text":"換照通過然後111年5月112年7月新聞台換照通過這個都不算啦你告訴我們說他下次喔下次再換照的時候他上次就騙我們你要怎麼處理這兩位委員不是我說的喔兩位委員說這個都要重審"},{"start":11981.252,"end":12008.657,"text":"那你們完全沒有參考你所謂獨立委員的意見嗎?我們所以是在實驗在有些相關的案子裡面我們本來就是他這個部分要重新說明沒有錯啊這個案子我們手上還有很多還有一些三例的案子在出國那你是準備重審嗎?移民大法移回來嗎?我們在討論嗎?因為這個本來就不是我一個人可以決定的問題好啦我跟你講進電視啊你去年已經浪費我們一整年的時間了後面討論到最後那就乾脆不要討論了齁"},{"start":12010.273,"end":12011.273,"text":"好 謝謝魯明哲委員的發言"},{"start":12040.649,"end":12055.176,"text":"下位請賴思寶委員發言有沒有中間上洗手間的可以自己處理謝謝主席有請陳主委委員好"},{"start":12068.069,"end":12092.692,"text":"你好從早上到現在大家對你的一個評價其實大家都知道你在主政NCC的這幾年當中你總共當主委當幾年當主委當幾年就是從那個2020年的8月1號到目前大概3年多吧所以這一任下來就一任4年對一任4年"},{"start":12094.158,"end":12119.951,"text":"大家對你的感對你就是你把NCC東廠化你前置言論自由你自己講的所以這個沒有百分之百的言論自由你居然今天講的不是任何的言論都是屬於言論自由啦我剛意思是這樣民主可貴定在言論自由啊所以你還是堅定沒有言論自由當然保障言論自由啊你還是堅定"},{"start":12121.573,"end":12129.525,"text":"沒有百分之百的言論自由那你又殺人放火恐嚇這個算言論自由嗎這是言論啊但是他不是言論自由保障的言論啊"},{"start":12130.66,"end":12155.975,"text":"我跟你講的不是這個東西你很清楚的媒體的你關中田到現在為止15件官司你都輸請問你都繼續我現在10件當中沒有15件的問題啦你都繼續要上訴嗎請問你不要一直插話好不好不好意思我跟委員會打請問你你都確定都要上訴嗎那我們委員會討論啊要不要上訴我問你嘛要不要上訴是委員會要討論啊討論我都沒有"},{"start":12159.114,"end":12184.353,"text":"那像比如說中天的我們已經上訴了啊上訴幾件上訴幾件你可以看那個輸贏的部分嘛那個上訴幾件比如說換照案這個部分來講的話北高行後來我們上訴了嘛上訴請問花多少錢上訴花多少錢就看律師費用了不是這樣子啊你不要一副這個很親面的樣子你不要讓我排桌上跟你講你要很嚴謹回答國會議員的問題啊總共花多少錢你告訴我啊"},{"start":12185.053,"end":12187.854,"text":"全部加起來全部加起來來講的話從那個部分來講的話是682萬吧全部"},{"start":12201.781,"end":12203.622,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":12224.99,"end":12234.763,"text":"你結果你做的結果是被人家告然後你告輸了要跟人家打數準備告輸了跟人家打官司這個費用要把你省掉我跟你講來你怎麼你是官員怎麼就糾激了權力"},{"start":12241.811,"end":12249.093,"text":"一、二、再、再、還、三、如果說你輸一件你就不會那麼計較一、二、再、再、還、三、你都輸大評你做得這麼不對嘛所以你到底的你可以看啦加上這個禁電事加上三立入府宗家的事情細節我們就不講了你去年整年度在講的禁電事大家都很清楚嘛"},{"start":12271.089,"end":12296.42,"text":"你完全的偏近電視跟3D然後呢對中天就一腳把他踹掉就是他的做的違反的事項就是干預你講的原來的什麼那個報導什麼問題啦以及公司治理啦這些東西其他電視台也都有出現我們標準都一樣啊標準都一樣沒有其他的這個標準都一樣法規也都一樣啊就是這樣處理了處理結果就不一樣了所以人都一樣我再問你啊"},{"start":12299.488,"end":12304.857,"text":"你確定7月份要離開這個職位嗎?是啊啊如果賴清德找你咧?"},{"start":12305.748,"end":12332.262,"text":"沒有沒有,我學校借掉,因為委員我了解你也是從來來自大學我們借掉這一場就是8年了,我時間到了你8年到了是不是?對對對所以你不會,你不會辭掉?繼續當官員?不會沒有沒有沒有,我回去學校回去學校好!我跟你講喔,你的你的你一定,其實喔,讓你做到7月7月你的任期結束了讓你做好做滿了,其實是很不應該的你應該提早結束喔然後我們的看你喔"},{"start":12335.558,"end":12353.249,"text":"你可以看喔你利用所謂的新世代打擊詐欺的策略行動綱領1.5版你用了地澳與北京有1億元的補助給誰呢?中華電信、台灣過往、新世紀然後"},{"start":12354.27,"end":12367.615,"text":"全部都是這些五大電信公司他們大哥大、永傳幾乎全部都在裡面這個鏈內的我不知道你抓一個東西"},{"start":12369.898,"end":12370.038,"text":"中華電信"},{"start":12393.14,"end":12394.761,"text":"你為什麼可以用第二預備金"},{"start":12408.37,"end":12436.954,"text":"這個……這個……這個……"},{"start":12440.184,"end":12458.614,"text":"我們清楚看得到了你不僅僅在這些的決定要不要撤照啦要不要換照啦完全是一個正式考量另一部分一抓住機會像原來的建基地台也是一樣這個回饋啊回饋這個五大電信商一百五十幾億"},{"start":12459.634,"end":12477.168,"text":"都是很明顯的看到他NCC的瀆職現象有夠明顯你不要回答我我明顯講話你不要回答你不要回答齁讓我講因為我時間到了齁我要結束我的我的質詢就是NCC可以看得到他的判斷完全正式考量"},{"start":12477.708,"end":12501.773,"text":"他在用錢的部分想盡辦法找人名目就補助給這個五大電信商防疫的時候補助幾億這個時候啊都要宣稱他們都是免費的結果不是耶結果都是你買單千千就能看得到這個我建議呢主委你對立委執行不要手插在前面非常敵意非常敵意喔不能這樣子國會電台是多麼嚴肅的請你仔細聽喔"},{"start":12505.634,"end":12522.727,"text":"立委跟你我時間到我就不講了齁我就是最後一句話告訴你不能夠你的判斷都是政治判斷然後呢抓住機會就補助給送錢給財團人民不能接受花委員這個都是法定預算經過大會的審議啦好謝謝好謝謝賴世保委員的發言下一位請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":12541.191,"end":12548.209,"text":"主席．在場的委員先進．列席的政府監事長．官員．會長．工作夥伴．媒體記者女士先生有請陳主委主委請"},{"start":12555.373,"end":12575.709,"text":"委員好 主委你在今天的試問報告當中的第17頁提到說提升本國自製節目的能量益助資源活水 活絡電視產業發展這裡面包括我們本土自製的頻道商的內容產業 對不對是好 那我們來看一下 這個頻道商呢他就是在我們的第4台那過去你也知道我過去在地方總任任職期間也審查過"},{"start":12576.69,"end":12591.585,"text":"有限電視就是MSO的費率那目前我們不管大概五十幾家系統業者大概分成四大、五大集團嘛凱波、台股、中佳、台塑等等等那最近的這些業者啊MSO的業者紛紛叫苦啊說過去呢我們的收視戶啊有520萬降到現在剩451萬你覺得對於我們的本國的產業是不是一個很嚴重的威脅"},{"start":12598.652,"end":12625.349,"text":"大家都不用不定看不看有些件事了都去看國外定的手機的播送了你覺得呢這個應該是說我們系統業者這邊來講這個通路的確那個用戶在減少那你們怎麼知道這個數字450萬戶這450萬戶我們每年都有統計數字你們統計是系統跟你報的對不對那因為你也參加費率的審查嘛費率審查我們看到財報嘛財報會說我有多少用戶嘛就像台電照他有多少用戶台手又照他有多少用戶是不是這樣"},{"start":12626.109,"end":12654.82,"text":"所以用戶這是透明的是不是他承報出來的那他收了多少錢也知道花了多少錢在哪裡都知道好 那我們看一下那現在我們來看一下NSO這個往前一頁他說我這邊看到一個說法是說他們目前收費呢假設是510的話那個版權費呢大概佔了240那系統呢大概270對於這樣的數字你是不是大概有個類似差不多接近市場的現況這個就是我們傳統所講的240俱樂部了OK好那我們來看一下"},{"start":12655.84,"end":12685.28,"text":"這是事實來MSO商收了錢他跟誰收錢那他跟用戶收錢收了錢之後他要付給誰他要付給頻道商對不對權利金那頻道商除了這個收權費用的收入他也收了廣告費是不是這樣子所以頻道商的收入廣告費跟版權費因為頻道商主要的這些頻道商偉來東森八大TVS飛凡等等等因為你們都會要他做年度報告所以他們的這些權利金的收入廣告費你也知道"},{"start":12686.248,"end":12686.512,"text":"有沒辦法?"},{"start":12688.022,"end":12717.018,"text":"應該有一些是屬於他們財報裡面但是不會很細節的但就是一個總總結大概知道所以你們定期審查頻道上的公共信息所以知道權力監管收費的大概的數字對不對好那我請教一下這個最近的近期報導這個數字有點怪怪的剛剛出現是451萬戶他們承包給你的但是我們看到一個新聞的迪士尼他五個頻道他每個月收取22塊一年可以收減7.4億我把它倒推回去他的授權費迪士尼是不是"},{"start":12719.606,"end":12737.89,"text":"這絕大部分的用戶家裡都會有頻道在他撤出之前所以他這個戶數就等於是全國的用戶嘛每個系統都有嘛少數沒有這個齁他們頻道授權他們有沒有打有時候還會有打折的問題打折我不管嘛我是說他呈現出來的戶數是280萬戶啦"},{"start":12740.191,"end":12755.341,"text":"你們目前有沒有審查到頻道上的數字有出現大概我聽到一個數字是282萬加減3萬大概就是目前這些全國都有的必選台的啦我打開哪一個系統都有得起來好像新聞台啦這個大概是在這個數字上下你們有沒有掌握這個數字"},{"start":12756.081,"end":12773.906,"text":"我們掌握的是有線電視的451萬的那個數目沒有沒有沒有沒有你們在審我剛問過你了嘛往前跳你忘了嗎我才問說你們就訊查他的頻道收入你不是知道他的廣告費他的版權費嗎請那個我們有那個平台數跟內容數跟委員報告一下好不好簡單快點好不好時間有限往下看"},{"start":12775.226,"end":12789.198,"text":"我們這邊業者有些那些系統來呈報的是他們的訂戶數那委員您剛剛頻道上他們的收入版權收入有沒有有沒有有會出現像剛剛這個280萬戶的數字有沒有老實說有沒有你們完全沒有照這個數字我們沒有這個數字"},{"start":12791.3,"end":12820.203,"text":"你們沒有數字?OK那這個如果說查出來這個數字恐怕你們在國會上的備詢就要說明一下齁好但是這個280萬戶跟這個450萬戶我從第10年來核算現在有一個情況齁月聽大眾每個月大概平均付525元加起來呢大概啊是290億一個月一年大概6500一年大概290億但是頻道商收到多少錢呢280萬戶他能收多少錢你們有沒有掌握"},{"start":12822.475,"end":12838.667,"text":"二百八十萬戶來講的話：他收了多少錢：有沒有從兩百九十萬收了多少錢在他們的版費收入就是說二四兩百四十元嘛一戶兩百四十元就是依照他那個頻率去付給系統業者MSO付了多少錢買他們的授權"},{"start":12839.428,"end":12840.469,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":12860.952,"end":12878.057,"text":"頻道商只有跟你懲罰離島三家我們省的部分只有這三家啦那這電視頻道有限電視用的頻道沒有他收到的授權金多少你不知道根委員報告基本上來講頻道商都是透過頻道代理上的問題對好現在我就知道最後的重點了"},{"start":12879.357,"end":12904.511,"text":"現在頻道代理商大概有這幾家啦 凱波啦 家訓啦 全國啦就是後面是數 中家現在呢我們如果是寫MSO的費率我大概知道他付了多少權利金給頻道代理商這會知道 對不對但是這個頻道代理商付了多少錢給頻道呢我們要從頻道端來查頻道端能不能知道他們付了多少收了多少版權收入知不知道你們這裡有沒有辦法查"},{"start":12905.8,"end":12925.511,"text":"頻道端收到了多少收到了多少廣告費收到了多少版權收入能不能查得到因為基本上來除非有特別的什麼樣案子我們不會那你們手上目前有沒有什麼特別案子你們掌握了他收到的版權有沒有有沒有沒有目前沒有版權的收費收費的部分廣告收入有沒有"},{"start":12927.43,"end":12938.552,"text":"廣告收入應該會有一些啦但是不是完整的我知道不管是不是每一家啦你們目前有沒有頻道的部分你們收到了他的版權收入或者廣告收入這個數在你們手上有沒有"},{"start":12940.389,"end":12965.006,"text":"有,那版權收入呢?你們沒有辦法拿到?確定?那版權收入呢?來,主委,如果你們拿到了廣告收入,為什麼拿不到版權收入?不是很好查嗎?他的財報啊,他從哪裡收入多少錢,收入到廣告費用,有沒有介入?有嘛,財報會介入嘛,那版權收入怎麼不會介入?你回去查一下好不好?"},{"start":12966.384,"end":12966.724,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":12983.131,"end":13000.258,"text":"頻道商收到的頻道代理商的錢大概只有280萬戶收到的版權收入來最後的結論所以我是說為了避免民眾操繳第4台的費用請你們調查版權中心就是頻道代理商他的股權結構到底他是誰成立的"},{"start":13001.418,"end":13017.506,"text":"據我所知我上次有問過因為他很多都是這四大集團五大集團他們成立的代理商那因此呢你們可以查得到他付多少錢給自己設立的版權中心但是版權中心付了多少錢給頻道去買他們的節目這個你們要查可不可以"},{"start":13018.647,"end":13038.584,"text":"我認為這個是可能要法律的授權這個部分來講的話你們不是手頭上就有了嗎但是那個財報沒有辦完到很細的所謂這個要有法律的授權你才看得到嗎請問要出自哪個法你們才看得到你們現在去看系統業者MSO的財報我就看過啊有限電視裡面也寫很清楚啊對"},{"start":13039.204,"end":13067.19,"text":"但是那時是一個營業的總收入total的部分沒有,如果是MSA的財報這些都看得到但是只是看得到付了多少錢給版權代理中心但是版權中心付了多少錢給頻道商要從頻道商來看那我建議你是不是因為我過去在財委會這些頻道代理商這個頻道商如果是上市上櫃公司這個通通都看得到你們要不要去查如果是上市上櫃公司當然可以查那你們要不要查那如果有需要可以幫我們查一下"},{"start":13067.97,"end":13068.27,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":13088.141,"end":13113.774,"text":"頻道的這個版權中心他收到多少收益那我們才能確定你的第17頁講的你怎麼去益助資源活水活絡電視產業嘛他們是內容生產者嘛我們主要補助那個是在於所謂的我不是要你補助我說他可以從我們收視戶付的錢當中拿到多少去做節目你覺得這重不重要這當然很重要很重要那請你三個月內提出幾個再重出一次喔"},{"start":13114.474,"end":13116.275,"text":"二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":13138.45,"end":13138.57,"text":"主席謝謝"},{"start":13170.834,"end":13197.884,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請陳耀祥主委好主委請大家好陳主委兩個議題跟你討論第16頁你今天的業務報告裡面特別有強調說加強抽驗無線機上核也就是我們比較俗稱的不管什麼安卓盒子安博盒子等等嘛對不對到目前為止到底市面上有沒有所謂NCC認證的這些電視機上核"},{"start":13200.37,"end":13204.474,"text":"但是現在網路上我隨便在拍賣網站上面查都還是可以查得到什麼越獄破解版什麼"},{"start":13226.536,"end":13247.965,"text":"最新升級有發票有保固豪華越獄版那這一些算是合法還非法跟委員報告一下就是說我們有個OTTTV平台就是這樣有些東西是我們處理我們負責那個刑事驗證那這個剛剛委員所關心的這個部分是侵權的問題就是侵害著作權的問題我們有請那個所謂相關檢調還有檢調還有那個警察去處理這個議題"},{"start":13251.266,"end":13252.448,"text":"本席會認為是說這一件事情其實從過去到現在我們一而再再三在討論"},{"start":13269.568,"end":13286.582,"text":"但是到目前為止你只要上拍賣網站都還是可以查你甚至不用任何的技巧不用任何的關鍵字啊你就打入第10代第9代第11代豪華越獄版而且本席就覺得說感覺是向公權力挑戰啊"},{"start":13287.162,"end":13315.192,"text":"越獄破解版馬上可看甚至上面還有講什麼還有講說這是NCC認證啊但是本席一查用那個型號一丟進你們的這個網站上面一查抱歉他出現是什麼他出現是本驗證證明已經廢止換言之什麼換言之業者他就是用一個似是而非的一個序號好像讓他以為是NCC認證官方掛保證但實際上不是啊"},{"start":13315.552,"end":13315.813,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":13330.834,"end":13349.68,"text":"跟您報告一下那個我們這個安博的盒子因為會認證是因為社平器材那社平器材在網路上在販售的確是有我們每年大概會通被檢舉的陳情案件大概兩萬八千多件那我們邀請我們有跟那個那個數位部恰電商平台去幫我們注意一下像委員剛才提到的"},{"start":13350.04,"end":13378.303,"text":"他這個標示的內容如果是已經是我們廢止的或者是他根本沒有標示認證我們也請他去推那本席想請教到目前為止本席上來之前都還可以查詢的到輕易可以搜尋的到那是哪一個單位那就變成是我們行政單位應作為不作為我們都一直在跟電商平台特別是有特定的那個的電商平台我們都我們其實前幾天還發文去把一些那個犯規的這個情形那所以是電商平台不理你們"},{"start":13378.983,"end":13401.218,"text":"不理NCC本席搜尋的道是事實有這些事件持續的不斷發生也是事實我們過去到現在交通委員會一而再再而三強調這樣子侵犯租作財產權現在侵犯閱聽大眾以及內容產生者的權利也是事實本席想問到底環節出了什麼問題要人給人要錢給錢你們一直強調是說這個跨部會通盤檢討合作"},{"start":13408.403,"end":13429.669,"text":"但是重點就是說 層出不窮啊那我們也是一直跟數位部 數位部也是幫我們跟電商平台去做這到底是NCC的責任還是數位部的責任還是又要再甩鍋沒有沒有 電商平台交通委員會就是 你說數位部 數位部一號就說NCC NCC就說可能是警政署沒有沒有 各位也不知道 這本來就是共同努力我們都有共同 都有"},{"start":13430.129,"end":13453.762,"text":"我們甚至也到市場上實體店面我們也去找網路我們都定期是找那個通人叫通人上去看所以這個處理這個案件不要讓本席覺得是說我們隨便搜尋都比你們說有編列預算有專責人員來有用有效來主委在下你的任期到7月31號嘛是"},{"start":13455.226,"end":13471.406,"text":"這件事情我可不可以請教7月31號以前我們還會在這些拍賣平台上面看到這些違法的事情嗎我們會努力去掃蕩有沒有辦法保證有沒有辦法能夠行刑好幫忙國人幫忙這些我們內容產生者"},{"start":13472.711,"end":13494.987,"text":"我們一定努力去打雜你努力了多久時間了你過去多少時間努力這本來就是不斷發生的事情我們不斷去處理嘛各位最近有一個很紅的國片阿叫做周楚廚山駭阿我知道阿本席最後一分鐘要把周楚廚山駭這一句話送給你因為"},{"start":13496.314,"end":13510.835,"text":"在過去你擔任NCC主委任內確實已經讓國人對NCC很不信任如果有民意調查或是不信任指數的話我想NCC會是排在前三名甚至第一名因為偏撥"},{"start":13512.321,"end":13533.811,"text":"所以最後這兩三個月的時間很多的委員剛剛已經質詢了包括中天新聞台連15敗你說還在上訴你還在上訴沒關係但是從過去前任主委一年只有編列150萬的法律訴訟費用到你上任之後每年編列600萬、700萬去年編列1300萬今年編列685萬"},{"start":13539.594,"end":13567.743,"text":"重點就是NCC的訴訟層出不窮所以本席最後周楚除三害第一害把國人過去NCC侵犯新聞自由言論自由的害給解決回來第二害用一樣的標準去檢視所有的新聞台以及第三害好好的跟國人你最後還有時間喔"},{"start":13568.925,"end":13596.337,"text":"我覺得你應該要跟國人說明清楚到底過去是誰受益誰支持要你關掉中天新聞台可以跟國人說明清楚周楚除傷害最重要跪就是跪在他到最後良心發現認清自己是罪魁禍首認清自己是傷害台灣新聞自由言論自由的人如果說你沒有這個自知的話本席"},{"start":13598.557,"end":13625.196,"text":"會認為你卸任之後不是事情的結束有可能還會再跑法院到時候現在不講清楚法院一樣會見到這是本席給你的忠告周楚除三害請你好好的記在心裡我個人不是周楚我們也是依法去處理這個事情謝謝能夠除三害的時候好好利用這個時間啊我們就不是周楚怎麼會有除三害的問題那誰是周楚誰是三害啊這兩個啊"},{"start":13628.51,"end":13634.592,"text":"主委不管您是不是州處本期今天來送你一程我想NCC"},{"start":13658.313,"end":13682.45,"text":"這個戰功彪炳啊身為民進黨的馬前卒奮戰不遺餘力連促轉會啊要稱自己為東廠都比不上NCC因為有你在真的了不起中天被你關掉以後到現在我們變成一個全世界第一線的民主國家因為你而讓台灣的形象蒙羞"},{"start":13684.271,"end":13711.116,"text":"現在再過來進電視不得了哇這個進電視你可以啊公然讓一個所謂的電視台兩個月之間換了五個董事長換完之後從裴偉先生到陳建平先生到李永豐先生楊雅喆女士再到鄭雲優董事長好"},{"start":13712.409,"end":13725.4,"text":"去年6月有條件通過附帶決議大股東不得移轉股權移轉了沒有?本席都已經告訴你陪委的帳號匯錢給這些大股東大股東也承認了立法委員也拿著錄音帶到這裡來講了你辦了什麼事?"},{"start":13738.823,"end":13765.497,"text":"基本上來講我們是依照他們的相關資料去處理而且跟委員報告本來這個董建設邊緣是公司治理一環只要他沒有違反法律的相關資料就處理聽人的權益什麼叫公司一環胡說八道兩千三百萬的權益聽人的權益什麼叫公司一環你就只有書面審查我們當然請他大會陳述意見沒有胡說八道我們是跟委員據實報告我現在告訴你陳泰銘先生的帳號有收到多少錢"},{"start":13766.972,"end":13784.527,"text":"陳記財先生有收到多少錢?朱文穎先生賬號收到多少錢?蘇永平先生賬號收到多少錢?朱少華先生賬號收到多少錢?葉國毅先生賬號收到多少錢?李良齊先生賬號收到多少錢?本席最後一次正告你"},{"start":13786.243,"end":13813.409,"text":"你就是貪污賭職的被告不會因為你下台不會因為你下台本席就會停止來追捕你我們沒有收賄沒有炒股沒有炒地皮沒有這個問題5G你超出了980億在投標之前正式公告招標須知投標後你又補助了150億"},{"start":13816.315,"end":13830.142,"text":"這不是賭職 什麼叫賭職 這是圖利 什麼叫圖利立法院在這再三告訴NCC 超收981 要回饋整個使用大眾你補助了150幾億 談到了降低多少匯率"},{"start":13835.896,"end":13837.537,"text":"打炸國家隊越打越炸現在炸氣氛已經是從台灣輸出到全世界"},{"start":13864.732,"end":13890.251,"text":"臺灣輸出到全世界這是另類的臺灣奇蹟臺灣的詐騙集團是舉世聞名我想本席不曉得您是不是州處但是你絕對是大集團的議員本席要再請教你一下這個蠻好奇的行政院去年通過一個"},{"start":13891.986,"end":13918.033,"text":"新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版役注13億元給打詐國家隊請問國家隊的議員現在有效果嗎我們至少就我們NCC的部分對於所謂的境外的來話的攔阻跟所謂的警示光去年到今年降低了到85%增加了33%"},{"start":13922.438,"end":13923.459,"text":"今天教育委員會已經要成立了"},{"start":13932.537,"end":13960.047,"text":"本席會調查你所有一切貪賭的行為然後呢我們會本席會跟你長相左右本席還希望您真的是周楚不是周楚然後呢第一害叫民進黨第二害叫柯建民第三害叫陳耀祥這三害能夠早點除掉的話台灣會更好同不同意不可能同意這個慕志明上可以寫你不同意好不好"},{"start":13961.291,"end":13979.026,"text":"委員不要隨便給他講慕志敏好,謝謝我們總召副委員下一位請王宏威委員王宏威,王宏威不在請羅廷偉委員發言羅廷偉,羅廷偉不在陳靜瑜委員發言"},{"start":14001.445,"end":14022.562,"text":"好,謝謝主席,請主席請我們陳主委主委請委員好好,主委好所以針對我們這個電信的詐欺問題我想在此來就教我們陳主委那因為我們"},{"start":14023.764,"end":14045.33,"text":"說實在最近這個詐騙案層出不窮那政府也有效的在打詐那對於台灣民眾最關心的相關議題不管各黨各派的委員我相信都相繼都在詢問這個問題那大家關心這個打詐的成效那今天本席也對於這個問題我想說來請教主委"},{"start":14046.71,"end":14052.319,"text":"跟主委討論一下對於這個電信詐騙案的逐年暴政那我們從這個"},{"start":14056.348,"end":14082.998,"text":"去年的我們法務部到立法院來做專題報告的時候所提供的這張數據看起來可以看到新收集到的相關電信詐騙案件是逐年上升占全國新收案件的占比率也都不斷的往上跳不但越來越多的國人受騙司法系統也難以消化那在宜蘭縣來看在去年"},{"start":14083.638,"end":14084.519,"text":"其中我想請教主委就是這個人頭門號的問題"},{"start":14103.463,"end":14125.274,"text":"現在已經有許多的這個詐騙案是利用申辦這種漫遊或是預付卡的方式人頭門號來作為犯罪的工具讓檢警在偵查的時候往往難以查證到對方的真實身分變成這個辦案的一個斷點那對於這種大量的人頭門號產生造成詐騙案難以追查的問題"},{"start":14126.175,"end":14147.906,"text":"我們作為主管機關NCC我們有什麼樣的一個因應的措施謝謝委員的提問謝謝委員非常關心這個我們現在全民最關注這個詐騙的問題那NCC這邊來講的話我們是從源頭管理去強化這個電信業者的門號管控的問題就剛剛委員所提的就是說很多問題都出在那裡"},{"start":14148.846,"end":14164.819,"text":"本身來講如果像大電信業者像MMO像中華電信、台客大、遠傳這個基本上比較沒有什麼太大的就我們目前所查目前來講的話問題比較沒有那麼大最大的問題是在原來有很多的那種他的企業客戶也就是說我們原來很多的所謂MV、MO所謂虛擬的行動業者這個部分"},{"start":14167.361,"end":14189.681,"text":"那為了落實這個源頭管理而且取得這個法律的依據我們除了給這個電信業者相關的這些指引以外最重要的是我們現在在訂這個所謂的用戶號碼管理使用辦法我們可以這個所謂的MMO就是像三大電信還有他的企業客戶這些相關的所謂的用戶的KYC認識你的用戶的問題"},{"start":14190.962,"end":14209.004,"text":"透過這個部分來講的確我們在這個部分源頭的部分有大量降低了這些所謂的冒用或是用人頭的帳號的這個部分那只是說這個犯罪的問題就剛剛委員所提的這個東西可能完全根絕只是我們一一努力把這個所謂的數量數字壓下去"},{"start":14210.626,"end":14227.717,"text":"主委我們像現在有一些軟體的APP它的功能其實都有實質在幫助到民眾對於詐騙機這個電話的一個過濾那我也希望說我們不管是我們NCC主動去開發這種軟體或是配合這相關業者來做這個把關"},{"start":14232.74,"end":14258.618,"text":"假設這個電話號碼經過許多人反映說這是詐騙電話我們應該是要主動出擊讓這個電話不能再使用我們現在很多的那個APP的確有防詐的功能在裡面那當然是說普遍使用的程度就像委員你來自宜蘭我們宜蘭有些鄉親可能或是包括我們中央部他可能對年紀的關係他對那個數位的使用比較沒有那麼習慣這部分我們都會加強防"},{"start":14259.318,"end":14276.783,"text":"那個所謂的宣導而且我們也會要求這些電信業者予以必要的協助去降低這些所謂受詐的這個機會我希望是要落實管理我們希望電信業者應該要對於這個詐騙案的重視啊當然不是因為不能說你因為你在賺錢啊這個過程都不需要去查假設發現到詐騙電話應該電信業者"},{"start":14281.944,"end":14286.709,"text":"對這個部分我希望NCC應該是要主動跟這些電信業者做比較有效的溝通請他們來配合假設這種詐騙案如果還是層出不窮"},{"start":14304.966,"end":14327.785,"text":"我希望這個第一類的電信業者也要負連帶的這個責任對,所以我們目前在做的相關事情方向就是這樣去處理這樣子才能夠有效來管制到這些電信業者也能夠保護到民眾這個使用者的一個安全避免這個詐騙案一直層出不窮的在所有的這個每一個角落這樣發生以上我請我們NCC應該要這個加強來對這個"},{"start":14331.588,"end":14354.273,"text":"相關這個案子的一個關心好,謝謝我們主委好,謝謝陳靜瑜委員發言蕭若晴、陳培鈺委員發言於,謝謝,對不起好,謝謝主席,那有請主委,謝謝好,請主委,謝謝"},{"start":14361.415,"end":14389.344,"text":"主委午安主委辛苦了我們時間有限想要跟主委討論一下這些年因為台灣還有全球電視頻道產業的整個收視狀況都非常的不一樣那很多頻道跟很多服務都在面臨轉型我相信主委你一定非常清楚那在這個轉播權利經市場比較沒有那麼好的台灣其實很多體育頻道都受到相關的衝擊那2020Fox體育台的停播這個部分不知道主委你有沒有印象"},{"start":14390.919,"end":14418.127,"text":"我講的是2020的Fox體育台那在去年呢這個網路上一個名言叫做消失那個變了心的女朋友是回不來那什麼東西回不來消失的影音資料主委一定覺得很奇怪為什麼投影片上這個是空白的因為這個相關的訪問在這個頻道離開台灣之後他們就再也看不見了於是呢如果你去個別的臉書網頁上看你會發現完全沒有資料了那"},{"start":14418.927,"end":14439.007,"text":"這樣子其實是台灣體育文化重大的損失我們接下來看可是回到NCC有四大核心價值其中有一個叫做多元與本國文化要促進多元文化均衡發展還要維護本國文化跟在地認同不知道主委你認不認同體育文化是很重要的本國文化跟在地認同的一個項目"},{"start":14439.788,"end":14459.805,"text":"當然,體育是一個國立的展現也是一個全民移居的項目所以從剛剛一路鋪陳到現在體育台的撤出、體育影音資料的消失主委過去在相關的委員會裡面你們有沒有進行過類似的討論或是類似的政策規劃我們現在目前來講話我們在就是說我們現在在討論說適度的尤其是轉播的部分"},{"start":14460.505,"end":14479.622,"text":"除了說體育台以外來講的話我們是不是相關的其他頻道有可能有讓它適度露出尤其是像那個所謂的奧運、亞運或是這些重大的賽事當然剛剛委員所關注的是包括我們平常的一些所謂職業球賽這個部分或者是棒球這個部分這個我們平常都有在關注當中"},{"start":14480.545,"end":14496.708,"text":"關注當中的意思是什麼聽起來應該還沒有太具體的規劃沒關係我時間有限我想要跟主委您再次確認那去年我們在文化部的國務院中心有提到類似的案子或者是呢像今天去日本拼國會外交的核心傳委員對NCC都有類似的要求"},{"start":14497.449,"end":14522.871,"text":"也就是說其實有非常多立法委員都一直在提醒NCC這件事情真的非常非常重要所以有沒有機會我們都認為在未來OTT落地的審查或者是目前現有電視台可能退場NCC是不是要提早做出準備NCC跟文化部是不是可以在體育文化這個部分作為影視文化保存的共同努力的對象所以因為時間有限我們可不可以就一個一個來確認在最後一分半鐘"},{"start":14523.752,"end":14549.478,"text":"我們強烈要求NCC可不可以針對Fast體育臺退出臺灣後續相關影像目前留存的狀況做出相關確認?包委員這部分來講可能涉及到所謂的著作權的問題如果著作權可以解決當然進行全面性的保護我們也是非常贊成但是著作權的議題還有相關的預算的議題還有維護的這個議題如果可以解決我們當然是希望把這些相關的內容可以保存下來"},{"start":14549.838,"end":14549.878,"text":"主席"},{"start":14569.271,"end":14594.097,"text":"所以我們在第四點就有提到NCC可不可以主動的跟文化部還有體育署開始來共同會商未來要把如何把相關的要求納入新設頻道或是OTT的落地審查條件如果我們沒有現在開始做這些事情我們很難想像更多的體育影像它就在此沒有如同您剛剛說的FOX體育台退出台灣"},{"start":14594.637,"end":14604.644,"text":"他後續要考慮到版權的問題還有影像維持的問題所以再回頭追可能會很辛苦第二個NCC可不可以針對電視頻道加入片庫保存狀況調查"},{"start":14607.107,"end":14630.574,"text":"調查是沒問題但是剛剛委員所講的這些要納入這個審查條件可是一旦開始調查那就是如果相關的法規需要修正我相信立法院的跨黨派立法委員絕對會支持因為體育文化絕對是跨黨派很重要的共同語言所以如同您剛剛說的如果可以開啟相關調查後續的相關法規或是政策或是預算我相信立法院都會支持那我們辦公室也會持續來跟NCC討論這個"},{"start":14632.315,"end":14651.993,"text":"第三個協調頻道業者提供版權跟備份檔案建置電視節目的資料庫這個剛剛一樣有版權的問題有維持的問題有預算的問題但是我們還是要請主委是不是可以明確的表態您是支持這個方向去賣金的這方向沒問題但是說我在法規上如果可以去解決這個問題相關預算可以解決問題我們也是希望朝著這方面去處理"},{"start":14652.694,"end":14680.939,"text":"但是我相信今天開啟的這個討論絕對會對於後續的政策或是預算規劃推動絕對是有意義的那最後我剛剛講跟文化部跟體育署過往可能沒有這樣的工作經驗但是絕對是非常重要所以也請主委是不是再次肯認這個好謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳培宇委員夏蕙琴鄭天才委員鄭天才鄭天才不在劉許廷委員劉許廷劉許廷不在"},{"start":14681.843,"end":14700.354,"text":"廖謙祥委員,廖謙祥,廖謙祥不在。林楚英委員,林楚英,林楚英不在。請鄭正前委員發言。主席好,我想請阿成主委。好,主委請。"},{"start":14708.217,"end":14726.489,"text":"主委好 那個NCC從2006年成立到現在18年了 那到你為止歷經有6位主委那你之前是表示說你要做到7月份對不對 你就要回學校去 確定是這樣子嗎因為我那個戒掉任期已經到了 戒掉時間到了"},{"start":14726.943,"end":14730.084,"text":"為什麼特別提這個點因為過去這六屆的主委當中的時候你如果到七月你等於是也坐了非常的長可是我要講一個狀態是就是人死流民報死流皮"},{"start":14752.132,"end":14767.817,"text":"在任任期當中也是一個爭議最大的一個主委很多媒體很多委員都覺得說你是打壓媒體最利的一個主委然後也是行政最不中立的一個主委然後漢字前言論自由"},{"start":14776.263,"end":14789.973,"text":"因為你剩下的時間大概如果說還到7月你還有好幾個月的時間我希望你多做一點有功德的事情就是不要就是一直在這邊講那我要講一個點就是說今天因為我們有兩個臨題一個臨題的部分就是針對進電視調閱小組的一個提案"},{"start":14795.317,"end":14813.572,"text":"這個部分我本系列是百分之百的支持這個是去年就是6月28號我們去NCC你把我們鎖在外頭你把自己鎖在裡頭你把我們辦公室佔了咧不是這樣子你們完全不讓我們去監督這個部分"},{"start":14815.693,"end":14841.889,"text":"這個事情我覺得很清楚所以今天我們委員會這邊成立進電視調閱小組我們希望能夠在你在離開這個位置之前我們能夠把這個問題好好的一個釐清那同時還有另外一個案就是譴責案啦另外一個譴責案就是主委能夠做到被委員會就是通過譴責案我覺得也是不容易啦那這裡面很清楚提到說"},{"start":14843.01,"end":14863.753,"text":"就是您針對國家通訊傳播委員會ACC主委陳耀祥．踐踏民主監督機制．敗壞官德官真嚴重藐視國會的行徑．莫此為勝亦以嚴厲的譴責本席也非常的認同這個狀態雖然我不是交通委員會的可是我要特別講一個點就是"},{"start":14866.816,"end":14889.973,"text":"針對淨電視這個案子現在有調閱小組出來然後針對中天案的狀態十個案當中十五個案子都輸十五個案都輸十五省都輸十個案子十五省都失敗了這十個案子包括了民進黨肇事"},{"start":14890.734,"end":14910.787,"text":"大家要離開這個事情一審勝跟一審上訴也勝鳳凰雲暗的時候二審勝跟一審勝跟審上訴勝還是勝大政治大報告討論農漁業滯銷的問題一審勝小韓粉嗆扁味和罵韓國瑜二審勝及卡舊命前養文滅韓一審勝及蔡"},{"start":14920.839,"end":14924.52,"text":"在這個部分當中的時候我們發現我們NCC這3年來的時候敗訴率是多少可以給我一個數字"},{"start":14950.492,"end":14951.294,"text":"總體敗訴率是多少?"},{"start":14960.819,"end":14974.764,"text":"我們統計2016到2023年那總共確定了有68件那其中20件敗訴48件是勝訴那這裡面我說明一下20件敗訴其中11件是黨政軍的問題你直接給我數字就好"},{"start":14984.55,"end":14989.581,"text":"所以20件敗訴的部分總數是68所以是29.4所以總共百分比是多少"},{"start":14996.377,"end":15014.399,"text":"二十九點四嘛對不對二十九點四對不對這已經高過最高行政法院院長吳東都他認為之前他認為在台灣一審行政訴訟原告的平均勝訴率是九點四趴NCC顯然明顯就是"},{"start":15015.782,"end":15032.705,"text":"比這樣子的一個數字更不及格我要講的說NCC在這過程當中的時候有很多的案子顯然是跟法院的看法也不一致的跟民眾的看法也不一致包括中天案法院也直接打臉"},{"start":15034.187,"end":15056.378,"text":"所以我們認為現在NCC這麼多敗訴的部分要讓民眾來買你們打官司的錢我覺得其實很不應該剩下這幾個月我希望陳主委好好地做做一點有道德良心的事情不要繼續打壓台灣的言論自由、民主政治好好做能夠人死能夠留名其實"},{"start":15058.117,"end":15058.857,"text":"現在請楊瓊英委員發言楊瓊英、楊瓊英不在"},{"start":15087.79,"end":15090.011,"text":"請張祺凱委員發言謝謝謝謝主席請阿陳主委主委請"},{"start":15124.654,"end":15144.882,"text":"主委你好今天好多委員都在提說你以前是一個很有名開明派的學者可是你看現在準備要回學校了那麼多人在罵你還等70天可以好好把握一下我先提一個最重要的案子好不好對你來講可能是心裡現在最大的痛吧"},{"start":15146.072,"end":15166.789,"text":"就是靜電室的這個申涉案一直大家都在傳說很多的傳聞是檢舉立例喔說政治黑手進去嘛那你這個痛是連北檢都已經把你列為他治案的這個賭職罪的被告對不對我先問你一下他治案很容易你要檢舉檢個報告就對所以我要問你嘛那個北檢約談你了沒有"},{"start":15168.541,"end":15196.178,"text":"約談是沒有但是有調查證物有調查相關證據調查中調查到什麼沒有約談有問過你調的資料嗎還是怎麼樣人的部分沒有約談但是物的部分有調查證據就是說相關的證據我們的一些流程什麼相關的這些證物所以已經調查中嘛對調查中那到底你這邊回應他的解釋清楚了嗎我們就是程序就是這樣子我們相關的資料就這樣處理我們把這些相關我們審查過程的資料就給那個檢察官啦"},{"start":15197.379,"end":15211.551,"text":"其實為什麼要告你賭職罪?就是說政治黑手所生進來結果你一直在煩惱你也承認說你跟洪耀虎碰了面啊然後煽動一間大家也有意見現在就說指證利率很多事情你等一下可以講沒有問題我是說證據那麼多所以人家去檢舉北檢才會把你列為被告是不是這樣我的意思就是說指證利率的同時你剛剛說你也回應了一些資料嘛對不對"},{"start":15224.542,"end":15249.825,"text":"你要說服我還有說服全國民眾說你是沒有問題的啊是不是這樣對啊 為什麼到目前為止還是他治案嗎如果真的有問題來講早是改成政治案的所以我們的資料完全是依法去處理相關的問題並沒有任何剛才委員所講的這些所謂的弊端存在裡面是不是弊端現在還在查就對了已經有調了尊重檢調單位的調查要再調資料就對了那第一個問題可能也是你心裡的痛吧"},{"start":15250.586,"end":15273.339,"text":"我們首先請前院長直接講說你最聽話NCC的主委怎麼可以聽話這對NCC的獨立性、中立性是很大傷害你都沒有抗議嗎?你都沒有抗議?那個新聞報告報導裡面所寫的我怎麼跟院長抗議呢?因為那是新聞報告所寫的我可以拿新聞報告跟院長抗議說是這樣講法我沒有辦法跟院長這樣說法主委你對全國的民眾講這個事情是假的不是真的是院長講的假的"},{"start":15274.159,"end":15287.208,"text":"蘇院長來講從來沒有跟我講過任何相關像媒體報導的話語也沒有想這種這個我們說最聽話也要或是命令我做什麼事情也要沒有我是依照我這個相關的法定程序跟事業去做這個事情所以你覺得你有聽蘇院長的威武"},{"start":15289.269,"end":15290.15,"text":"有一個案子就是三立入股這個宗家案對不對"},{"start":15319.91,"end":15332.636,"text":"這個案子看起來也是很明確,你自己都承認嘛對不對可是你的處理,我先問問你,你的處理方式你後來只有罰了這個系統業者一千四百四十萬嘛現在你不覺得太輕了嗎?會太輕嗎?因為我認為我們才屬這個系統業者,因為什麼?"},{"start":15338.038,"end":15363.171,"text":"我們現在的有限電視法裡面對這些所謂的其他的大股東去投資這個部分來講：法律上並沒有相關的處罰規定是不是我們現在有些我們現在為什麼廣電商會要修改就是以往我們都認為這個頻道沒有用到公家資源沒有用到說稀有稀有稀有設置有嘛現在兩個問題第一就是你不覺得12家系統業者發的太輕這是一個問題嘛那第二東西我同意你剛才說的"},{"start":15363.931,"end":15379.87,"text":"你現在罰3例罰不到跟法有問題可是人民會講啊沒合理啊一個是合不合理的問題第二個法你現在還有70天嘛本席會很明確的提出來廣電三法的修法包括你剛剛講的因為現在法例不完整嘛可是馬上提包括"},{"start":15380.902,"end":15382.062,"text":"我們修法是有的"},{"start":15410.807,"end":15433.964,"text":"委員報告了,這個大方向基本上我個人都是支持,但是問題是現在人民市委我們要提委的,我現在剩國會,你叫我一國會提出這麼重大的事情你當然是你入台之前要做這件事情,這對你的名聲也好啊,而且是補破網你今天可以讓你核心啊,跟全台灣的民眾講你去做了補破網的事情啊委員這個不合理沒有法審理嘛,那如果是法的問題趕快去把它補起來啊"},{"start":15434.684,"end":15463.386,"text":"這個我當然盡快去處理,因為本來我們在討論就討論很久了,這個東西應該在...我知道,所以你趕快下去,你能不能給我一個答案?這位小卦,我報告你我剛才說要再公聽各界的意見,你說我...你回台北大學之前這個法媒體...我們NCC本來就是一個延續性的事情啊,我們是希望把這個東西訂好,像委員這個方向我們也是贊成,但是要把它訂好,比如說你到底是哪些人要公開,公開什麼範圍,這個大家都可以討論的問題就剛剛那三個原則啊,很簡單啊"},{"start":15464.527,"end":15486.125,"text":"如果說公開透明是5%以上有義務要申報啊 公開透明啊 接受政府補助的 這三個對你來講你幾期啊 這麼簡單的東西 這個有很困難嗎 我的版本都已經擬好了啊 我們最近就會提啦 欸抱歉 所有人 你們給我個引誦 你下台之前 你離開啦 回台北大學之前 廣電三法這個修法一定提出來 可以嗎"},{"start":15489.528,"end":15511.803,"text":"法案我們會提出來跟各界討論,這樣可以嗎?我們把法案提出來,我會送到台灣你現在就是把案子很清清楚楚的提到行政院去啊我們立法結果我提案要經過行政院,行政院再提到報科對啦,我說你最少啦,你離開回台北大集市這70天送到至少你的案子出門到行政院可以嗎?"},{"start":15513.931,"end":15521.396,"text":"我希望可以朝這個方向去做我希望可以朝這個方向去處理但是我不敢承諾過我離開以前這個東西有沒有辦法送到立法院行政院去了我希望朝這個方向去做"},{"start":15540.885,"end":15569.088,"text":"朝這個方向那盡量在盡量在我可以我要離開前可以看這個草案能不能出去了這樣還是沒有沒有那個因為你這樣會不會讓全民全民全民失望沒有沒有不是失望我只是准教這一套你還在想你還在想還在想還在想問你說你你還要有時間你想要這個事情明明該做的不做呢報告委員市委在市委在新的委員如果要產生他8月1號就職我在趁他還沒8月1號就職把一個法案丟出去這個不是對啊這很好的法案啊對"},{"start":15570.289,"end":15589.194,"text":"這不是只有你認為好我認為好全民都認為好的阿而且最最重要的你認為現在沒辦法去罰三例你這個道理上也說不過去你認為是罰的問題那你把罰的補破網你要做阿怎麼不做呢有有有我們要做阿要做就趕快做阿你盡量朝這個方向去走嘛好不好阿好時間到了好謝謝章祺凱委員的發言下一位請吳春城委員發言"},{"start":15604.146,"end":15611.509,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請主委主委請委員好主委好那個那個你的檔案"},{"start":15629.895,"end":15659.064,"text":"好,沒關係,好,那個第一個我要來問一下這個主委一句話請問這個蔡政府八年執政下我們的媒體環境變好還是變壞我們的新聞只有在亞洲還是明年前貿?有嗎?有?有嗎?OK好,我自己本身我第一個工作在智利網報我知道我是一個媒體出身"},{"start":15660.595,"end":15687.956,"text":"我覺得非常的感嘆當時在國民黨威權的統治下我們媒體人覺得非常的光榮是嗎?被稱為無冕王對不對?人才輩出的確我們的媒體人有很多社會上備受尊重的人請問民進黨深知媒體的重要性"},{"start":15689.338,"end":15717.656,"text":"所以呢 靠著媒體上台上台以後 第一件事情是什麼掌控媒體消滅媒體這個我們的女王啊 這個一上台了以後圈養英權歌功頌德追殺政敵七百多天不開記者會連獎金果都做不到欸"},{"start":15719.42,"end":15729.533,"text":"為什麼這麼的藐視媒體為什麼這麼的大膽因為他有一隻鷹犬這鷹犬是誰你知道嗎"},{"start":15733.243,"end":15756.243,"text":"你不知道喔?那不然你知道今天為什麼你的各委員會當中為什麼大家這個你的最熱鬧呢?報告委員我不是陰犬第二個就是說NCC本來就是獨立機關那各個新聞頻道我們現在新聞頻道比你們以前多太多了那各種意見也都有所以為什麼我剛才所講的台灣的新聞只有在亞洲一十年前嘛OK好你看一下一個你說這一個"},{"start":15760.267,"end":15779.947,"text":"這個是英國牛津大學路透新聞研究所這很權威的全球的這個媒體他出了2023年數位新聞的產業報告對於開放自由媒體的環境的台灣受訪者對我們台灣的媒體的信任度只有28%"},{"start":15782.665,"end":15783.286,"text":"媒體環境有變好還是變壞?"},{"start":15803.866,"end":15824.189,"text":"所以是變幻你的意思就是變幻而且媒體整個環境有大的變化因為你們當時根本連網路都沒有現在很重要的是現在的人民的資訊來源不是只單純傳統的OK你看下一頁再來我不只是這樣子特別是在選舉期間感受"},{"start":15825.543,"end":15849.851,"text":"最深刻感受更加的深刻幾乎所有的媒體遇到柯文哲遇到我們黨主席幾乎而且是一面倒的甚至連廣告都不賣他媒體是社會公器這誰在管啊誰在管怎麼會管成這樣的一個環境呢這誰的責任"},{"start":15852.356,"end":15877.732,"text":"廣告這個本來就是商業行為商業行為所以媒體就是報那個媒體老闆的事情這樣子完全是私營企業你第一個還是要怎麼樣賣給誰就賣給誰你還是要遵守法律啊那法律怎麼會定成這樣子呢可以為所欲為認所欲為這樣子嗎委員你要具體的案例說哪裏來講如果說違反事實查證違反公平原則我們該處理就處理來並不是說下一頁"},{"start":15880.441,"end":15890.063,"text":"然後最近的新聞說這個蔡賴在溝通NCC的新委員那這件事情是不是事實?"},{"start":15891.615,"end":15916.22,"text":"這我不知道 這你不知道這一個媒體在傳這樣子的所以看到NCC的不獨立不公正控制媒體就可以控制政權在台灣我們的確是這樣在過去的蔡政府的八年下來然後八年來就是你來當NCC主委的這樣子媒體呢"},{"start":15917.52,"end":15941.484,"text":"有效率的控制擁有媒體就擁有一切所有事情由你來控制所以呢賴政府還繼續要有樣學樣嗎?台灣民眾黨要求還給媒體第四權的生存環境我做一個媒體人非常清楚做一個媒體人的尊嚴做一個媒體這個媒體產業當中嚴重的沉淪"},{"start":15945.485,"end":15962.134,"text":"這個NCC沒有責任嘛所以在後續的NCC委員的任命上民眾黨一定強力的嚴選報告委員我可以說明一下嗎基本上來講的話其實就我的觀察還有各界我們學術界觀察最擅長使用新媒體的反而是民眾黨"},{"start":15963.554,"end":15979.76,"text":"這個是我們目前所觀察的對象是這樣子而且這個新媒體本身來講沒有法律規定所以我們也沒有去管過新媒體我認為媒體它會變化使用的程度會不同科技創新所以我覺得台灣並沒有所謂媒體不公如果有不公我們就依法去處理就對了謝謝好 謝謝吳俊成委員下一位請陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":15999.205,"end":16022.427,"text":"謝謝主席有請陳主委主委我想先跟您請教您當NCC主委以來你面對高度有社會爭議的案件包括淨電視的執照審議案包括三立的這個入股中加案您覺得你自己是不是有秉公處理有善盡調查的責任呢當然啦秉公處理而且依法去調查"},{"start":16023.783,"end":16040.194,"text":"但是我從上一屆的立法院的公報上我看到的事實卻不是這樣在公報記錄上有多位立委針對NCC的處理的過程當中發生許多違法或是爭議的事情而且他們具體提出了很多的例子要求成立這個調閱小組當時"},{"start":16043.756,"end":16063.345,"text":"當時這個包括從禁電視取得新聞台的執照到禁電視取得執照之後發生的違法性還有NCC內部自己的行政作為的部分我們都看到主委您都一再的推脫啦認為只要NCC交出報告依法調查什麼事要是有什麼事交給NCC處理就可以了"},{"start":16064.085,"end":16077.36,"text":"而且我也看到在公報記錄上民進黨執政黨利用他們的人數優勢一再的在這個用五度封殺五度封殺那個在野提案我就不一一唸出"},{"start":16078.851,"end":16096.925,"text":"主委過去這幾年我個人認為您的工作是非常好當的因為面對爭議的事件總是有人幫您護航但是現在新的民意出現了今天稍早交通委員會已經成立調閱小組的提案我想請教主委在接下來的調閱辦法跟調閱資料範圍的討論上"},{"start":16100.268,"end":16117.224,"text":"您是不是願意承諾將所有跟靜電視執照審查的過程和發執照後的檢舉案以及NCC進行審查調查的相關所有資料您都願意如實的沒有隱瞞的毫無保留的交出來供這個調閱小組來審視嗎?"},{"start":16119.745,"end":16143.557,"text":"基本上來講的話我們上一屆會期我們就做了5次的專案報告相關的調查資料報告今天已經正式成立教育小組這個成立教育小組這個是大院的權利了那我們有哪些資料只要合法的前提要提供的我們就依法提供您承諾您會如實的無保留的交出這些資料沒有沒有有些東西來講如果我們想依法有些東西所以是有條件的好"},{"start":16144.878,"end":16159.908,"text":"有些如果在刑事調查當中來講的話這依憲法本來就沒有辦法在交易的範圍主委前年原本靜電視的三統一間他們辭任的事情跟原因我想你很清楚請問主委跟NCC對於當時三統一間所呈報的靜電視報告已經明擺點出靜電視很多作為違反NCC合法新聞台執照的付款要求"},{"start":16168.214,"end":16196.798,"text":"而且也和這個董事長這個蔡昌波隱瞞隱瞞三董一間甚至回給NCC的這個報告內容互相抵觸南圓北側那麼請問當時NCC做怎麼樣的調查會有行政作為嗎我們當然相關第一個是請進電視去提供相關的資料嘛第二個請這個當事人來講的話有些比如說做相關的協政調查主委這就是問題你就是請當事人來回覆然後當事人說沒有違法你就認定沒有違法是這樣嗎"},{"start":16197.518,"end":16212.41,"text":"沒有請當事人回覆,要請誰回覆?那你要不做調查權呢?你自我限縮嗎?所以說我們對人調查、對事調查都有啊,都有進行相關的調查。難怪今天是前董事長陳建平多次發出聲明,控訴你和NCG都在擺亂放水包庇。"},{"start":16213.01,"end":16239.124,"text":"不是啊,我們程序上就只能這樣處理嘛,不能說不如他願這是去年靜電視前董事長陳建平發出的公開聲明那我就擷取其中的一段陳建平說靜電視大股東陳泰銘跟陳俊仁支持的三董一間他們四個人發現靜電視早就違反了NCC合法執照的付款要求不管是培委和這個精進傳媒公司跟和靜電視公司之間的關係人交易"},{"start":16240.345,"end":16252.051,"text":"而且他們一再的要求都沒辦法釐清那競電室跟競傳媒公司之間也沒有依照NCC的要求進行業務切割人資系統財務系統都還是共用設備共用採購還是經營傳媒公司在幫競電室處理"},{"start":16257.236,"end":16278.443,"text":"那這些身為禁電室內部的三統一間都行文正式向NCC檢舉結果你主委你還是護航阿你還是擺案阿沒有護航阿我們這個事情就照他們檢舉我們去調查阿調查他也我們目前調查的結果他也符合我們相關的這些付款主委我知道這是你一貫的回答那我們看下一張下一張"},{"start":16279.983,"end":16302.254,"text":"這幾個人就是淨電視當時在核發執照的時候這個八大股東那依照付款規定NG的付款規定他們持有的股份是六年內禁止轉移請教主委這個規定現在還在嗎還在啊這本來就我們付款裡面啊那但是主委這八個股東裡面有人一開始就是人頭一有人取得執照就把股份賣出去請問主委你是否知悉"},{"start":16302.654,"end":16304.815,"text":"NCC有沒有掌握跟調查?你的調查還是一樣的,本人簽的嗎?還是他們是有覬覦自己簽下去嗎?你就是說要犯規的人,做不該做的事的人,他們說他們沒有做錯,你都認為沒有做錯嗎?"},{"start":16325.251,"end":16345.31,"text":"最後就是金流的事主委您說過NCC沒有辦法查金流後來你被金管會打臉了然後你又說減掉才可以這樣查金流但是金管會主委後來黃天牧先生在上一屆的立法院他有提到只要NCC在自己內部規定講清楚是可以查金流的所以基本上就是NCC限縮自己的職權沒有我沒有請金管會協助"},{"start":16347.432,"end":16373.169,"text":"那就是主委是不是這樣的新的名義已經出現了吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼"},{"start":16375.131,"end":16376.893,"text":"好,謝謝陳昭芝委員稍微請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":16407.716,"end":16422.867,"text":"謝謝主席是不是麻煩有請主委主委好今天ICC所提出來的業務概況報告裡面我批評"},{"start":16424.181,"end":16438.68,"text":"有七成以上都照抄您說這個業務是延續性的嘛然後有提出了一些回覆啊但我要告訴主委的是啊業務有延續性的不是只有NCC啊主委你有沒有看到有其他哪一個部會啊"},{"start":16439.901,"end":16457.573,"text":"抄襲用字遣詞一模一樣比例跟你們一樣這不是要抄襲這是我們自己的業務報告不是抄襲的問題對嘛財政部的報告你去看一下財政部的報告人家也是去年最後一個會期提的跟你們不要說抄襲啦複製貼上沒有錯吧"},{"start":16460.836,"end":16483.358,"text":"跟你們複製貼上的比例是能比喔拿業務用延續性的來欺騙國人業務是只有你們是延續性的喔來 我們進一步啦看具體的內容國人最關心的打炸的問題所以我就要看啊說你們的延續是怎麼個延續法左手邊是你們今年提出來的"},{"start":16484.139,"end":16490.943,"text":"我講的喔檢察官痛批NCC第二類電器沒有管好成為詐騙集團的幫手"},{"start":16493.211,"end":16518.576,"text":"右手邊這邊有紅字的是你們NCC去年的報告左手邊是你們NCC今年的報告有不一樣的字的部分我負責任的都幫你們框出來了去年的報告還比較豐富一點跟大家說檢察官痛批完了第二類電信NCC不知道在管什麼的時候你們財閥了什麼財閥了亞太電信嘛"},{"start":16521.457,"end":16542.651,"text":"台灣之星嘛海峽電信嘛我都負責任的把NCC有做的事啊幫你給列出來了那我就困惑啦從去年到今年針對第二類電信被詐騙集團裁罰被詐騙集團使用為犯罪工具害很多人受害的這個延續性的東西在哪裡"},{"start":16544.711,"end":16547.954,"text":"從去年提出報告到今年的這個時候有沒有裁罰?有沒有裁罰?"},{"start":16565.683,"end":16583.291,"text":"有沒有裁罰目前沒有裁罰案目前沒有裁罰案第二類電信不是繼續被插片集團使用嗎為什麼沒有裁罰案總是要調查程序嘛委員自己是訴訟法的專家知道我們所有的裁罰都還是要調查啊好你現在在調查哪幾個案件說來聽聽啊"},{"start":16584.972,"end":16596.189,"text":"目前來講的話比如說最近模范的案子在調查還有其他我們定期在檢查沒有關係我只跟你講具體的不要跟我講抽象的模糊的沒有沒有沒有你調查什麼案件講來聽聽啊"},{"start":16599.91,"end":16619.825,"text":"比如說魔方的案件我們在調查當中還有別的嗎當然還有黑莓卡的案子我們在調查當中還有別的嗎這個已經很多了黑莓卡案子就好多家啦我具體的跟你講啦檢察官稱對第二類電信去年年底已經徵結的喔如果沒有徵結牽涉到偵查不公開我們都尊重"},{"start":16620.578,"end":16643.643,"text":"已經癥結的第二類電信的業者使用第二類電信給詐騙集團都已經被檢察官起訴囉檢察官都幫你調查完了結果在你們的業務報告裡面當個資源媒體啊這什麼延續性的報告啊就是因為檢察官等他偵查結束以後我們再相關去做行政的裁處啊"},{"start":16644.925,"end":16671.757,"text":"對嘛 所以我才問你行政裁處在哪裡啊所以還在進行當初還沒有裁處怎麼會有這個報告出現去年年底 去年年底 去年年底針對第二類電信繼續被詐騙集團使用的檢察官都已經貞節囉我講的是去年年底喔不是上個月底喔不是上個月底喔當初海峽電信的事情被檢察官罵完了以後趕快罰啊"},{"start":16672.777,"end":16686.678,"text":"被罵翻了啊結果呢你所謂延續性的報告這邊是空白的我敢這樣子講我敢這樣講這些資訊檢察官申請完了以後就沒有偵查不公開了"},{"start":16687.694,"end":16705.873,"text":"有哪些第二類電信的業者把東西交給詐騙集團我們不需要讓社會大眾知道嗎不需要NCC不需要去進行裁罰嗎當然需要但是你要裁罰第一個你還是要去調查程序我後就繼續等著"},{"start":16707.114,"end":16734.791,"text":"我就繼續等著我在看等了幾個月以後你們NCC才會有反應我站在這邊講我負責我說話向來有憑有據的我說檢察官已經偵查終結了那些第二類電信業者都已經被起訴了結果NCC還是繼續放著那不是二類電信業者有些東西我們還會去查沒有關係啦等到檢察官接下來進一步我下次下次我們繼續談今天"},{"start":16736.992,"end":16751.886,"text":"陳立進電視的調閱小組主委有表達你的看法你覺得遺憾等等的這個我都尊重立法院行使立法委員的職權但這個案子從事前執照的核發"},{"start":16753.007,"end":16775.257,"text":"事中付款到底有沒有履行事後他違反了當初在申設計畫裡面的承諾NCC是怎麼處罰的這三個階段社會大眾通通都在看那我們都是法律人我不跟你講抽象的事情我完全都跟你談具體的事情前面就有關於"},{"start":16778.547,"end":16802.913,"text":"政治黑手深入的事情先放著因為人家大剌剌的說這是總統的旨意這不是行政院長的旨意然後結果一開始說這個錄音檔是偽照變照去鑑定完是真的以後說我吹牛啊我在內部吹牛啊"},{"start":16804.249,"end":16829.104,"text":"假借蔡英文的旨意吹牛啊結果假借蔡英文旨意吹牛的人啊現在還在當媒體負責人啊真是了不起沒關係我們講具體的好 來看一下廢紙權條款第3條該公司取得執照後經濟傳媒股份有限公司董監事及經理人不得參與該公司任何營運這個是附廢紙權的條款嘛 對吧"},{"start":16831.84,"end":16857.857,"text":"培偉是不是經濟傳媒的董事培偉父親是吧是啊他有沒有參與進電視任何的音樂他的財報裡面講進電視因為十月間變跟董事來後跟進傳媒也沒關係的不是啦我現在在講的不是進電視你看你的廢紙權條款經濟傳媒股份有限公司董事培偉是不是是吧"},{"start":16860.54,"end":16878.589,"text":"經濟傳媒不知道我們管的是禁電視的對嘛請你看你們NCC自己做的付款嘛這中文有這麼難理解嗎經濟傳媒股份有限公司的董事不可以參與禁電視的任何營運這個中文沒這麼難懂嘛第一個問題培偉是不是經濟傳媒的董事"},{"start":16879.673,"end":16880.554,"text":"培韋是不是經濟傳媒的董事?"},{"start":16901.874,"end":16928.77,"text":"我們管的是淨電視我付款是下給淨電視不是下給經濟傳媒阿對嘛你下給淨電視阿你的付款前提要件不用先建立嗎但是問題是說我們的醫務人是那個阿醫務人是那個淨電視嘛醫務人當然是淨電視嘛所以這個付款寫經濟傳媒股份有限公司的董事不可以參與淨電視的營運嘛是啊所以我們問的第一個前提問題經濟傳媒股份有限公司前提嘛喔凱瑞是不是董事"},{"start":16932.145,"end":16959.078,"text":"培韋是進進傳媒的培韋我從頭到尾就在問這個問題有這麼難理解嗎他有沒有參與營運這件事情剛剛有委員講過了嘛他是股東三董一間三董一間說培韋就有介入進電視的營運啊你說你們都有調查來請教一下怎麼調查的三董一間有叫來問嗎當然有啊所以三董一間說他們講的是假的嗎"},{"start":16960.479,"end":16985.265,"text":"他們的說法我們一定是這樣各方去調查嘛有沒有是看那個事實去公司的營運上有沒有所以你調查出來的結果是沒有嗎對啊好陳泰銘的律師自己講喔公司的大小張還在培威手上公司的銀行端的所有資料只有進桌刊的財務看得到公司的人事系統也只有進桌刊的管理部門看得到"},{"start":16986.341,"end":17014.009,"text":"連公司內部的人資都看不到公司HR Human Resource的資料這個你們有沒有掌握這個部分來講的話這個資料來講應該有你們有掌握所以他還是沒有參與營運你們是怎麼把這些資料全部視而不見閉上眼睛這是律師講的我們當然最後他所陳述還是有去調查所以調查來講我現在要請教你陳泰民的律師講的對不對"},{"start":17016.321,"end":17033.27,"text":"你可以講說陳泰銘的律師啊胡說八大根本沒有這回事這個是調查結果嘛至少我們調查結果來講並沒有他所講的這種狀況嘛所以我就說嘛陳泰銘律師講的對不對你只要針對問題我回答就好了你只要告訴我陳泰銘律師講的這個狀況經過本委委員會非常認真的調查發現沒有他亂講"},{"start":17039.873,"end":17048.747,"text":"是這樣嗎委員已經講了我們調查結果就是這樣啊對嘛所以陳泰銘律師講的這個內容是不正確的對不對"},{"start":17050.854,"end":17073.541,"text":"我們查的結果目前來講沒有辦法去證明說陳那個所謂的律師講的是正確是你的查的結果沒有辦法證明對還是你們就是放水亂查嗎沒有放水亂查好沒有關係我們繼續慢慢往下看看NCC啊是不是在放水亂查來什麼叫放水亂查來我們接下來再講你們有沒有約詢過陳派米"},{"start":17076.778,"end":17096.557,"text":"陳泰銘我們有請他陳述過意見什麼時候請他到會約詢的我們有做行政調查對 什麼時候請陳泰銘到會來約詢的他沒有到會但是他有把他表達意見所以他沒有到會對啊啊你們調查這麼潦草喔這麼關鍵的人所以各位我們報告他有曾經到內容事務處什麼時候時間講具體一點什麼時候到內容事務處講"},{"start":17104.445,"end":17128.644,"text":"他111年有到我們內容處做行政調查對 什麼時候嘛這資料我們等下日期查一下嘛啊沒關係 現在馬上查我等著啊有行政調查報告我不知道啦陳泰銘去NCC跟你們講了什麼但我知道啊陳泰銘在外面怎麼講主要我唸給你聽喔啊我們的資料都給他啊啊他敢不"},{"start":17132.769,"end":17147.253,"text":"結果主管機關可以管的都不管叫我們自己去把董事長罷免掉你知道我的意思嗎?要做官而已啦!不然要做事情啦!NCC是在審核什麼?審核一個頭殼的啦!這麼簡單的事不去做!太難啦!"},{"start":17152.185,"end":17167.594,"text":"我敢說陳泰銘講過這些話我一定負責那陳泰銘立下竊結書這也是他立的也不是我們叫他那個對不對我們一樣一樣來嘛你們基本的調查連人都沒有傳來怎麼還沒有傳來當然有啊"},{"start":17169.115,"end":17189.243,"text":"對嘛!什麼時候傳來的嘛!人家講的,跟你們調查的結果,就不一樣嘛!大股東欸!公開控訴欸!陳耀祥欸!你只有想要做官,不想要做事情啦!你省下什麼?你省下投給一個空的啦!欸!我澄清一下,這不是我罵的!這個是禁電視啊!大股東,我為你罵的!"},{"start":17195.685,"end":17220.504,"text":"我先補充一下陳泰銘來陳泰銘董事長來我這邊是因為陳泰銘什麼時候來的他去111年不過不是我約談的是陳泰銘主動來問我們一些有關於付款執行的情形他可不可以付款有沒有變更的可能性他在詢問這件事情那奇怪了我剛問的是你們有沒有約詢他嘛我沒有約詢他但是陳泰銘可能沒有來他有沒有辦理這件事情你們有沒有約詢過他他有順便表達繼續再往下看嘛"},{"start":17225.701,"end":17252.878,"text":"本來就這樣啊 笑泡笑到這麼清楚週刊跟電視 人事劃分 根本全部不適格嘛你都沒去查 誰都沒去查 他控訴的就是NCC啦再往下看 你要聽殷黨 要殷黨我也有 時間的關係啦那個殷黨我怕直接放出來 震撼力太強了我們董事做了決議 董事長都不執行"},{"start":17254.653,"end":17254.833,"text":"陳泰銘的控訴"},{"start":17282.765,"end":17307.068,"text":"他們給你們的檢舉資料你們有沒有copy給賽昌坡沒有阿沒有嗎好沒有關係沒有關係因為社會社會要不然就不信任你們調查要不然你們調查出來的結果阿非常的sloppy阿非常的sloppy那沒有關係我們今天成立了調閱小組以後這些事情慢慢再來講你可以繼續否認是你們的"},{"start":17308.103,"end":17334.245,"text":"你也可以繼續說我們NCC的調查公正、嚴明、絕對正確、經得起社會考驗是不是真的這個樣子我們接下來就繼續往這個方位喝點水休息一下好不好方位喝點水我怕你累了好啦謝謝黃國昌委員你跟我講了15分鐘還不止你欠我5分鐘"},{"start":17342.784,"end":17365.195,"text":"黃珊珊委員發言,黃珊珊不在林思敏委員發言,林思敏不在王美惠委員發言,王美惠不在張嘉峻委員發言,張嘉峻不在蘇清泉委員發言,蘇清泉不在徐欣穎委員發言,徐欣穎不在林沛翔委員發言,林沛翔不在高金樹梅委員發言,高金樹梅不在"},{"start":17367.526,"end":17388.934,"text":"邁鈺貞委員發言,邁鈺貞、邁鈺貞不在。邱志偉委員發言,邱志偉、邱志偉不在。羅明財委員發言,羅明財、羅明財不在。蔡易瑜委員發言,蔡易瑜、蔡易瑜不在。陳冠廷委員發言,陳冠廷、陳冠廷不在。陳雪生委員發言,陳雪生、陳雪生。我拔到腰,不發言了。"},{"start":17393.345,"end":17401.456,"text":"登記執行委員均已經發言完畢,做一下決定說明及詢答完畢"},{"start":17404.865,"end":17422.995,"text":"有關今日通常會業務報告及專題報告,主席經過貞德在場委員意見後,決定請通常會再行補充資料,並另折其補行報告。通常會書面報告列入記錄並刊登公報。"},{"start":17425.029,"end":17450.362,"text":"第二項,委員蔓玉珍、游浩、王洪威、何欣辰、廖先祥、陳素月委員所提的書面諮詢列入記錄並刊登公報。三、委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分,請通傳會盡速以書面答覆。本日議程處理完畢。散會。好,各位辛苦了。"}]}},{"id":"15710","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15710","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dba7f870fb2fb2a5c34f7cda26dcb539f83be8d109af184be46587b64fcdcfdd4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-11","start_time":"2024-03-11T08:31:22+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:12:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":9638,"委員發言時間":"08:31:22 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上會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1871.659,"end":1888.291,"text":"由於在場的委員不足3人所以我們議事錄就這樣不處理現在繼續進行報告事項請宣讀邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況．並備質詢宣讀完畢好我們現在請公平會理美主委進行報告"},{"start":1897.957,"end":1910.105,"text":"主席、各位委員先進、各位女士、各位先生以及公平會的同仁、政府部會的同仁、大家早安、大家好我很榮幸代表公平會來向經濟委員會提出業務報告我也趁這個機會來謝謝經濟委員會長期以來對公平會業務的支持與指教以下我請就公平會近期的重要業務分點來向各位提出"},{"start":1923.813,"end":1945.927,"text":"報告進行各位指教那第一點是在執法方面公平會的主要業務是主管公平交易法以及多層次傳銷管理法我們對於可能違法的情勢一向都積極查辦嚴處近年來我們查獲了重要案件包括電信業者、一半粉泥土業者、建築專業堅定服務業者"},{"start":1948.168,"end":1976.567,"text":"醫療服務掛號業等等多件違法的聯合行為案件我們也針對有線電視系統違反我們過去所加的結合負擔進行處罰另外不肖的美容業者假交友徵推銷以及不動產、不實廣告等等我們都疑與懲處確實維護了競爭秩序近期我們的重大案件查處的情形請各位參考書面報告"},{"start":1977.768,"end":1982.23,"text":"第二點是建構優質的數位經濟競爭環境因應數位經濟的發展我們在111年底發布了數位經濟競爭政策白皮書對於數位經濟下所可能產生的一些執法立場跟政策方向對各界來說明那白皮書發布以後我們得到不只是國內的肯定而且也是"},{"start":2002.977,"end":2027.737,"text":"在國際上得到肯定我們獲得了這個國際反托拉斯協作獎的評選那現在呢我們正針對我們在白皮書裡面提出的一些短中長的計畫逐步來落實包括修正不實廣告的相關規範包括市場界定原則處理原則以讓這個外界有所遵行完善我們數位經濟下的一個競爭環境"},{"start":2029.138,"end":2053.343,"text":"第三點是我們審慎審查結合申報案件近期我們審查的重要案件包括統一跟家福、遠傳跟亞太、臺灣大哥大跟臺灣之星等等結合案那相關的細節請各位參考書面報告為了精進結合審查作業我們在去年修正了跟結合有關的一些行政規章大幅的減輕事業申報結合的負擔"},{"start":2055.723,"end":2083.677,"text":"第4點是查查不實廣告在本會處理的違法案件裡面以虛為不實或引人錯誤的廣告最多為了有效規制不實廣告的行為我們有專案執行網路廣告查查計畫並且收集各類型廣告平台的刊登內容對於不動產、家電、3C商品等等常見的違法廣告如果有不實之餘立即主動立案調查同時也進行跨部會的機關合作"},{"start":2085.638,"end":2107.6,"text":"那第5點是掌握事況穩定民生我們對於民生物資的價格波動除了依職權依檢舉立案調查以外我們定期召開防制人為操縱物價專案小組關注民生物資狀況同時也在重要的節慶查核市場的一些供需情形另外也主動"},{"start":2108.44,"end":2124.61,"text":"提醒相關的工會業者尊重市場機制不可以有聯合烘台的行為同時也積極參加行政院的穩定物價小組以及物價聯合稽查小組跟各部會共同協力穩定物價第6點是輔導多層次傳銷事業本會"},{"start":2128.191,"end":2149.888,"text":"透過審視報備資料、辦理業務檢查、進行經營狀況調查以及宣導福島傳銷業者健全發展去年我們也導入一個發展的思維修正多層次傳銷保護機構設立跟管理辦法確實回應各界對於常保會的期待"},{"start":2150.669,"end":2178.242,"text":"第7點是宣導公平交易的理念我們持續運用各種管道來宣導公平交易的競爭性重要的工作包括辦理各式的主題宣導說明會提供交易訓練利用網路電視等等媒介提升各界對本會主管法規的瞭解那去年我們特別有一個新作為就是為企業客戶量身訂做一個G2B的直達車讓事業能夠"},{"start":2180.583,"end":2183.039,"text":"更貼切地瞭解公平交易法的相關規定"},{"start":2187.349,"end":2216.738,"text":"第8點是國際合作我們向來非常重視國際交流合作在112年積極參與各種競爭法會議跟活動我們也在這個重要的會議上擔任發表人與談人這些重要工作跟各國交流競爭法的政策跟執法經驗我個人在去年親自率團到美國加拿大跟兩國競爭法的主管機關進行交流奠定為"},{"start":2217.618,"end":2223.381,"text":"未來合作的基礎。以上是我解要的報告, 敬請各位委員指教。"},{"start":2242.039,"end":2247.324,"text":"每位委員發言的時間本會委員6分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記我們請登記第一位陳廷飛委員發言"},{"start":2278.195,"end":2279.702,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請主委來請你主委"},{"start":2287.455,"end":2314.518,"text":"委員長主委我想最近就是掛號費的問題我想雖然我們現在已經把這樣的一個掛號費然後尊重各醫療院所那在這個區塊因為已經在短時間大家都已經要喊漲可是這個幅度跟比例我們也沒有辦法去控制嘛 對不對"},{"start":2316.837,"end":2330.749,"text":"特別醫院的官方會的高低是由各個醫院院所去決定對所以我們也沒辦法處理可是這個一下子整個開放之後然後所造成的有一些這個"},{"start":2332.35,"end":2333.231,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":2358.015,"end":2371.089,"text":"主委,我想最近應該我們接到的是比較多這樣的一個訊息所以也跟主委反映一下我想大家都是為了這個醫療體制更好"},{"start":2372.731,"end":2372.851,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":2398.689,"end":2399.61,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":2417.075,"end":2435.34,"text":"主委,我發現有兩個可能是目前大家會比較爭議性的就在23條跟24條一個不當正評跟營業誹謗的部分你們打算把自己的行政責任全部刪除掉對不對"},{"start":2436.493,"end":2436.653,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":2456.421,"end":2483.029,"text":"跟委員說明贈品是企業他賣東西要用什麼方式來吸引消費者的一個方式是阿可是這個贈品是有當與不當你如果今天連行政責任都把它拿除掉了請問你無法可管阿你今天要去調查如果民眾跟你檢舉你就跟他講抱歉你去做"},{"start":2486.071,"end":2496.396,"text":"我們公平會現在好棒棒喔我們公平會現在就是修法把自己的權利把自己的責任全部都刪除掉對不對好再來看24條營業誹謗之後我們呢就把這個行政責任也拿掉也就是說如果實質在營業過程我有發現我被誹謗的行為"},{"start":2513.82,"end":2542.598,"text":"那麼我也只能說不好意思你去告告刑事告民事然後把所有的權利交由法官處理然後呢我們公平會因為你把這個行政責任把它刪除掉了你就可以很直接講我無法可管好棒棒我們公平會真的越來越厲害了"},{"start":2544.127,"end":2560.63,"text":"就是把自己所有的權限責任全部交出去希望你們修法把自己權利修得更大的像那個多層次傳銷你們不願意然後現在你們本來有法可管的你們說我"},{"start":2572.059,"end":2583.774,"text":"要自費武功、自繳武器交出去你們以後發生問題不好意思你們自己去告刑事自己去告民事是這樣嗎?"},{"start":2585.404,"end":2610.542,"text":"主委委員我説明一下齁那您剛才關心幾點一個贈品贈獎這一部分齁雖然刪除了23條但是企業如果透過他的這個市場力量從事這個不正競爭或是限制競爭行為我們前面第20條還是有法可以管那這一次會刪除是希望讓企業他在決絕這一件事主委有法給你們你們都搞得自己這樣"},{"start":2612.163,"end":2633.655,"text":"民不正言不順了然後你跟我講說我23條刪除但是我20條還有你今天所謂的不當正評事業不得已不當提供正評原來的條文喔事業不得已不當提供正評正講的方法爭取交易的機會對不對這個這麼重要"},{"start":2636.803,"end":2637.604,"text":"24條就是營業誹謗行為的行政責任"},{"start":2668.385,"end":2681.206,"text":"對不對那我今天受到誹謗了我今天受到不當的一些引用好我申請要求公平會議要來了解"},{"start":2682.608,"end":2687.352,"text":"你原本是有的喔那當不在私權的部分呢也就是說當他今天只是小行為的誹謗你要用到那麼大的規模在行事然後在民事"},{"start":2712.25,"end":2728.975,"text":"公平交易法違反競爭秩序 它比較有公義的考量 營業誹謗在性質上是一個被誹謗的人權利的受害 所以即便是在刑法 它也是一個告訴乃論之罪 是要告訴乃論 當然就是由我本身 我受到誹謗者"},{"start":2736.437,"end":2759.931,"text":"我來提出嘛這是形式嘛可是今天我們所講的公平交易在一個公平競爭的角度剛剛主委講得非常清楚我們要求的是公平的競爭行為對不對當今天沒有公平的競爭行為我當然要要求公民會來了解啊那公民會了解今天在勉勉強強還有這個這麼小的所謂的你還有調查的責任"},{"start":2765.809,"end":2792.418,"text":"還有一些些控管的責任還有一些些讓他有些行政責任可以調查的這樣的依據結果你把這個依據都拿掉了你連這個都拿掉了所以未來公平會就無法可管了只要任何違反所謂競爭行為來跟我們公平會說的時候你們就說抱歉"},{"start":2793.078,"end":2794.479,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":2815.683,"end":2815.863,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2839.212,"end":2854.509,"text":"今天公平交易法的過程當中公平會占了一個非常重要的關鍵跟角色你是主管機關不是把所有的行政責任都卸掉那麼如果把行政責任都卸掉那公平會就可以關門了"},{"start":2876.363,"end":2879.585,"text":"我們現在請第二位發言,邱盈盈召委發言。"},{"start":2898.103,"end":2920.68,"text":"委員長 主委早 主委剛剛看了一下您的業務報告 其實有一項你們過去查處聯合漲價的案子 有一個是處分宜仁綜合醫院跟天成醫院合意共同調漲掛號費的案子 我不知道這個案子的處理過程跟我們現在在談"},{"start":2922.982,"end":2926.305,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":2944.042,"end":2967.617,"text":"然後要去查處甚至要去開罰我想請教現在大家醫療院所大家普遍來講就是說所有的不管是薪資成本行政成本所有的費用全部是上漲所以希望能夠取消掛號費的上限這件事情衛福部也從善如流所以取消了掛號費的上限所以很多的醫療院所大概已經在醞釀要漲價"},{"start":2969.378,"end":2988.013,"text":"那衛福部馬上就跳出來說我要來看看你們是不是聯合漲價我不知道這個定義就大家醞釀漲價跟你所謂的聯合漲價你的認知上面比如說現在如果大概六成以上的私立的這些醫療院所都漲價的話這個算不算聯合漲價這跟你們過去採取醫院醫院跟天成醫院有什麼不同"},{"start":2996.32,"end":2996.54,"text":"主委請檢討說明"},{"start":3025.761,"end":3039.918,"text":"兩家院所彼此有聯繫講好要怎麼賬這是我們處罰的一個做法講好要怎麼賬其實某一個角度上來看如果說大家覺得說我就不要賬太高你免得有一家賬到了"},{"start":3040.819,"end":3040.979,"text":"委員會主任委員會長"},{"start":3056.698,"end":3072.602,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":3072.702,"end":3076.923,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3093.109,"end":3114.407,"text":"的了解程度會到哪裡?是不是會後能夠請主委您再給我一份詳細的報告還是您現在要請要說?會給委員一個資料那最主要我們在查的不是說他帳的合不合理因為帳的合不合理就是如委員所說的他去看市場的狀況自己院所的成本、金要各方面的成本所以我們觀察的是有沒有聯合一起談價格"},{"start":3115.828,"end":3136.067,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":3136.487,"end":3161.797,"text":"比如說哪一些會是觸法我覺得可能你們要去說明一下啦可能有一些公會啦地方的公會或者是有一些比較友好的私立的這些診所大家可能會覺得我們就大家來談好一個價格不要漲得太多不要彼此銷價競爭那這個有可能就會觸法我覺得像這個部分我覺得你們應該是要去給這些醫療院所做一些善意的提醒"},{"start":3162.017,"end":3183.314,"text":"因為有些醫生他們可能對這一方面的法令並不那麼樣的清楚我們在上個禮拜已經發文給衛福部請他發函給所有的醫療院所注意公平交易法的這些規定主委那另外我們其實一直在談這些直銷齁這個大概您有看到齁大概是上個月的新聞雲林的政風處有一個女科員做直銷月入80萬"},{"start":3185.015,"end":3198.102,"text":"公務人員能不能去做直銷當然是不行那到底有多少公務人員私下去做直銷我看你們也很難查也很難管那這個大概是因為太強出頭了所以被查出來"},{"start":3199.673,"end":3217.78,"text":"那我也順著這個我也去買了一瓶這個叫做什麼活樂帶這個茶這個呢現在聽說他們已經下架了因為買講是講買不到原物料啦但我不知道是不是真的買不到原物料啦曾經有一個女子呢三餐狂喝喝到中風"},{"start":3219.401,"end":3244.583,"text":"那這個呢大概也不在你們查查的範圍之內我現在講就是說其實這一些直銷的產品常常都是我們講的一樣檢舉了一家你們才開始去查所以這麼多家的直銷公司到底他賣的產品合不合格他的營業行為合不合法其實你們很難查得到你們很難管我再來講一個"},{"start":3247.114,"end":3274.25,"text":"這一家叫元珍健康這一家你知道嗎這一家元珍健康現在的問題是什麼現在還沒有說他的產品有很大的問題但是他入會的方式有很大的問題他是有一點類似像民間互助會的形態你只要加入我抽多少錢然後呢你要跟多少會你跟了這個會之後呢你要"},{"start":3276.174,"end":3301.67,"text":"買公司指定塞給你的保健食品所以你看到這個截圖有一個女生說很誇張我今天又得標110會一個會是5000塊他一天又得標110會這算下來是多少然後呢利息是400到700甚至他每一個會要交1220的服務費給公司"},{"start":3305.396,"end":3332.783,"text":"這比高利貸還好賺啊?主委,像這樣的公司有沒有問題?像這樣的公司該不該查?像這樣的直銷公司有多少?公平會的掌握進度到哪裡?掌握的程度到哪裡?來,主委我跟委員說明,像這個緣真公司這家我們有到他的公司去查,他其實他的說辭是說他租給那個168公司去做這個"},{"start":3336.005,"end":3358.545,"text":"議會養晦的事情那事實上我們對於傳銷商傳銷事業他對的對他傳銷商的行為也要有嚴格的一個管控機制如果他對他的傳銷商沒有好好約束讓這個傳銷商從事跟我們報備的內容不一樣的話我們是可以處罰的原真公司到底是不是傳銷商原真是傳銷所以我們168公司又是什麼"},{"start":3358.905,"end":3376.714,"text":"一六八公司是呃我們去現場看他是跟原真公司租那個辦公室所以他跟原真公司是同一個地址所以我們他跟原真公司租那個辦公室那他的負責人是不是同一個人那他的這個原真公司的這一些加入他的直銷的人是不是"},{"start":3377.654,"end":3398.408,"text":"直接就被所謂的這個什麼168要求要去入會這一點你們有沒有去查?他是入會可以送原真的食品那這部分實情進一步內部是不是透過一個第三方公司去從事違反這個傳銷的這些行為我們已經立案調查這個看起來就像是啊入會就送"},{"start":3399.309,"end":3399.669,"text":"我相信你們在調查中"},{"start":3423.82,"end":3448.419,"text":"所以我要跟您談就是說我們每一次都在講這些直銷的東西齁直銷但是直銷的業者這麼多家當然我相信也有一些好的啦看起來不好的容易被點出來但是你們其實就是人家點一家你們查一家所以這一些直銷公司到底我們掌握到他們合法正派經營的程度到哪裡"},{"start":3449.76,"end":3474.219,"text":"我到目前為止其實都看不出來公平會在這一方面的進展所以每一次我們都在這裡問然後每一次就拿一個產品來問你然後你們就會開始去查這家公司到底合不合法比如說這個叫什麼紫茶的他說有微量的看他的成品上面其實也沒有咖啡因可是會讓人家喝到咖啡因中毒這個也很奇怪"},{"start":3475.86,"end":3493.728,"text":"那這個喝了呢都告訴你說促進代謝啦、增強免疫力啦、這個強健體魄啦我就覺得這種東西是非常非常的奇怪然後這個產品這家公司賣了一大堆所以公務人員呢就直接去加入了直銷一個月月入80萬比他上班還好賺"},{"start":3497.358,"end":3497.578,"text":"謝謝委員指教"},{"start":3524.078,"end":3535.168,"text":"謝謝,不好意思我跟趙偉借一點點時間趙偉講的這件事情就是一直我們在講的多層次傳銷大家都願意讓你管你們就是不願意管"},{"start":3536.516,"end":3559.586,"text":"你們就是不願意管我們要求法要設的更完整讓你們直接有所謂武器去直接做這樣的一個認定你們不願意我就覺得好奇怪到底你們公民會是發生什麼事了所有的立委都站在你們這邊結果呢你們自己要自廢武功也不願意尋找武器這才是最好笑的"},{"start":3569.387,"end":3594.424,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請張祺海委員發言謝謝主席請李主委來請李主委委員早早"},{"start":3596.075,"end":3614.835,"text":"最近人民蠻苦的電價要漲現在連掛號費都要漲了那重要的防線就是公平會請公平會這個防線一定要守住好不好我問你比較具體的今天早上通信的新聞雙北光是雙北台北市及新北市就有265家的醫療院所準備要漲"},{"start":3619.224,"end":3638.797,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3639.619,"end":3644.484,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3659.158,"end":3659.438,"text":"會,會去瞭解"},{"start":3679.437,"end":3694.668,"text":"去瞭解這些醫療院所,因為有一些是關係企業,或者科別,地理區域各方面都不太一樣,我們會來瞭解。那現在看起來人民最關心的就是健保會會會一或方。在社會學跟心理講就所謂破窗理論。"},{"start":3695.569,"end":3711.625,"text":"你現在這個事情查不好誰?200多家一漲,全國就漲了,人民真的很苦,好不好?一定要鎖住。那麼具體的問你,除了要去查新北跟雙北這個之外,你們有沒有什麼很具體的動作、具體的行動?除了你剛剛講的,請衛福部要注意之外,你們有做了什麼事情?"},{"start":3712.325,"end":3734.729,"text":"第一個就是說我們全省各地的這個地方的衛生單位都可以合作如果在他們所轄的這些醫療院所有這個不合理的或者是有異常的情況我們會緊密有一個這個合作的機制那當然我們同仁因為掛號費多少基本上是透明的網路上可以查透過這些機制我們也可以來了解所以科別"},{"start":3737.99,"end":3739.712,"text":"民眾感觸最深嗎?那是不是民眾會檢舉的話,你們這邊又怎麼樣?是不是有什麼...我們也歡迎檢舉齁,我們謝謝..."},{"start":3753.65,"end":3758.875,"text":"謝謝委員 我們歡迎檢舉檢舉獎金很高 這個只要讓我們啟動調查最低就從10萬塊起跳那我們會根據檢舉人提供的這個證據的價值分別有這個10萬到100萬、10萬到1000萬假設被我們查到超過5億以上那個獎金可以到1億 那我也在這裡跟各位"},{"start":3778.892,"end":3805.085,"text":"宣傳我們的那個檢舉電話2351 0022歡迎各界檢舉所以就是民眾現在去看沒發現國安會漲太高了或者是不合理可能有聯合壟斷這個行為對聯合漲價就跟你們檢舉你說最高的是一千萬就是漲價個別漲價不是我們去規範但是有聯合行為我們會查可是其實要注意到有問題他就當吹哨者嘛對不對民眾就可以跟你們檢舉了你說統管的是一千萬"},{"start":3805.825,"end":3809.769,"text":"我們這樣 你就堅固 我覺得合理懷疑 啟動調查最低就10萬塊 最高可以到1億元 如果他有具體的事證 我們分3級 有幫助我們調查的這種證據 我們10萬到100萬"},{"start":3823.524,"end":3840.93,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":3841.03,"end":3856.396,"text":"公平會七所合作防止這個不當的漲價包括什麼最高的這個獎金有30%我們如果發到5億以上最高獎金可以是20%最高獎金可以到1億就是20%獎金的額度20%另外一個我問電價的問題這個防線也是很重要的"},{"start":3864.358,"end":3884.068,"text":"這個案子啊公平會是不是神助攻?齊凱這番聲音是在提醒電費要漲之前好好去跟民間的電廠檢討兩個9家民間電廠買電是不是買太貴?跟太陽能發生那麼多弊案到底裡面有沒有買太貴?弊案怎麼發生?要重新去議價公平會現在跟"},{"start":3885.393,"end":3910.301,"text":"九家民營電廠的官司現在公平會贏了是不是發委員因為這個當時我們是處分這個有九家聯合的行為那聯合這個違法聯合這個事實行為法院是認定的這部分我們是勝訴只是說我們每一家要罰多少錢法院認為我們這個罰款的認定還有問題所以針對罰款的部分請我們再斟酌等於經過法院包括"},{"start":3911.425,"end":3932.637,"text":"議員．"},{"start":3933.518,"end":3958.812,"text":"但是針對九家民營電廠在當時十幾年前他們聯合起來拒絕跟台電重啟契約的談判我不是針對這個聯合處分他不只是佔台電的便宜他是佔我們人民的便宜現在人民在反感的是什麼現在台電一直虧損就包括這也是造成虧損的重要因素虧損完之後人民要付錢上電價了結果民間的"},{"start":3960.073,"end":3976.109,"text":"業者賺了錢那公平會這個助攻非常重要你們罰了他錢現在經過長久的訴訟十幾年最近定案了最高行政法院包括憲法法庭都判你們贏嘛對不對就是他們有聯合行為這個已經是確認了那接下來要問的你們要罰他多少錢"},{"start":3977.148,"end":4003.298,"text":"我們目前是因為這個案子打了這個很久的時間目前還在行政訴訟當中那在這個法法的部分法院希望當事人能不能有一些磋商的機制那目前在這個訴訟法上在進行當中這個案子很重要是因為現在漲電價了所以本席今天為什麼問這麼重要的一個問題當初九家民營電廠跟"},{"start":4004.411,"end":4020.606,"text":"臺電講說"},{"start":4020.868,"end":4038.009,"text":"民眾來講是非常重要,臺電應該積極去爭取,現在不是急著漲電價,先去看看跟9家民營電廠,到底這個合約要怎麼定?如果一年,因為他被你們處分這個,一年如果有10億到20億,十幾年下來,有一兩百億再回到臺電,那就不用上人民的價格了,對不對?"},{"start":4040.414,"end":4063.992,"text":"你們神速攻我們現在呼籲臺電要去做這件事情那現在你們當務之急就是好好跟九家民營電廠弄清楚他到底要罰多少錢你們本來是要罰63.21對不對總共加起來總共加起來那現在改罰60.7什麼時候可以確定到底要罰多少錢我想這個要看這個法院行政法院這個處理的情形跟進度就是最新的進度很明確他有聯合壟斷的行為"},{"start":4066.305,"end":4088.2,"text":"這個聯合的事實是確定的,法環到底多少是還沒確定只是法環,那大概多久以內法環是可以確定下來的?我們的了解3月份法院會再開庭,那就看法院的審理的速度來看是怎樣。謝謝公平會的神速攻,這個防線不管是掛號費、不管是電價一定要守住,幫人民守住這個防線。好,謝謝指揮。"},{"start":4095.443,"end":4121.42,"text":"謝謝張祺凱委員接下來我們請鄭天才委員發言主席各位委員還有請主委請李主委鄭委員早安主委好"},{"start":4123.312,"end":4147.098,"text":"公平交易委員會組織法第1條行政院為維護交易自息以消費者權益確保自由與公平競爭促進經濟之安定與繁榮公平會在成立的時候或者是我們公平交易法制定的時候當時的這個"},{"start":4150.66,"end":4175.72,"text":"社會跟現在的社會有很大的不同尤其是在交易的這個部分像這個網路交易在當時公平會成立的時候或者是公平交易法制定的時候網路交易非常非常的"},{"start":4178.29,"end":4179.25,"text":"網絡交易到底現在是誰的業務?"},{"start":4179.25,"end":4179.65,"text":"在中央各部會誰主管?"},{"start":4198.297,"end":4207.914,"text":"委員,網絡交易的內容、類型還有形式是非常多所以要看看網絡交易它涉及的行為是什麼內容才能決定是"},{"start":4210.27,"end":4211.651,"text":"公平交易委員會組織法第二條這個掌理事項列了這麼多"},{"start":4236.872,"end":4263.675,"text":"當然這個我剛剛講了這個法也制定的時候你們成立的時候網路交易相關的各種的類型還沒有那麼複雜那現在是非常複雜這個日常交易這個在網路上便宜出售山西臭品然後吸引買家上購匯款拖延不給貨"},{"start":4265.905,"end":4268.286,"text":"有這種網路詐騙的就警察在處理"},{"start":4296.502,"end":4322.341,"text":"其實警察法或者是警政署相關的這些法律的這些執掌啊他們其實是協助協助協助這些他們在那個法律的用詞上他們是協助但是全部現在都是他們包括網路詐騙、煽導各方面都是他們"},{"start":4324.864,"end":4352.839,"text":"所以這個部分要怎麼樣去以時濟進因為畢竟警察單位還是有限他只能移送移送所以怎麼去解決這些問題公平交易委員會是不是去考量去思考要不要修法要不要更明確我剛剛提過了"},{"start":4355.639,"end":4376,"text":"維護教育自息與消費者權益當然行政院有消保委員會那有一些東西就往那邊事實上最後很多的前提前面都在所以這個部分怎麼樣去解決"},{"start":4377.786,"end":4406.036,"text":"這個部分是一個需要去因為台灣是以開發國家備詐金額最高的國家這個對台灣來講對台灣的人民來講是一個非常大的一個傷害那當然這個作為一個政府的主任委員行政院的主任委員怎樣去解決這個問題"},{"start":4408.488,"end":4433.826,"text":"這是我們國家的問題也許當初在立法的時候公平交易法或是公平會成立當初的人力各方面當然沒有考慮到這些了所以只要要怎麼樣去做要去做的話當然人力就可以去調的需求就是可以去調整"},{"start":4437.916,"end":4443.049,"text":"主委有沒有意願往這方向去考量、去檢討、去研議?"},{"start":4445.916,"end":4446.656,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4469.377,"end":4477.461,"text":"稍後修正了過去以實體為主的一些處理原則我想這都是希望能夠讓網路廣告的資訊能夠更精進當然我們應該要繼續努力"},{"start":4484.83,"end":4512.081,"text":"網絡廣告是其中之一啦但是網路交易他的很複雜的所以這個不能去怎麼樣去因應這個時代的變遷這個因為這個是非常嚴重在臺灣來講非常的嚴重他很多都是就是網路交易就是他就是交易所以"},{"start":4516.43,"end":4538.13,"text":"最起碼你們都在各縣市辦這些先導的時候也把這個納入在先導的範圍裏面這個如果我們看公平交易法第25條除本法另有規定者外事業亦不得為"},{"start":4539.747,"end":4564.113,"text":"其他足以影響交易自細之期望或顯示公平之行為。期望就是欺騙嘛所以你說他在網路的交易對一般人民而言他就是一個交易然後他是一個事業他認為他是一個事業"},{"start":4567.462,"end":4593.618,"text":"對,賣東西啊,不是事業啊,不是個人喔他說用事業的那個所以法還是有他可以去運用的地方啊所以這個部分是這個畢竟是一個目前在台灣非常普遍的一個情形而且還不分不是說一般的人民會被騙喔"},{"start":4595.233,"end":4599.015,"text":"謝謝政天才委員接下來我們請楊瓊英召委發言"},{"start":4632.721,"end":4635.964,"text":"謝謝主席本席想邀請主委來請你主委主席好我們來討論聯合龍站的問題那衛福部在2024年就這個月3月4號他公告了廢除醫療機構收取花費之參考範圍那取消了"},{"start":4658.703,"end":4658.743,"text":"公平會議"},{"start":4677.085,"end":4677.285,"text":"發言委員．"},{"start":4699.875,"end":4704.516,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":4728.702,"end":4756.061,"text":"到500塊的一個條漲。那如果回歸於機制的話換句話說那人民的部分我們要怎麼樣保護他因為在今天的報紙上面已經披露了雙北有265家的醫療院所他要漲價你看到這個訊息吧那你看到了你認為你可以怎麼樣的作為呢"},{"start":4758.74,"end":4778.669,"text":"法務委員,事實上衛福部公告廢除這個參考範圍之後我們也很關心這個議題那基本上各醫療院所它的規模大小是不是關係企業它在這個調整掛號費的時候如果自己去決定這個是市場機制自己去處理但是如果"},{"start":4785.152,"end":4786.093,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會長"},{"start":4804.178,"end":4804.998,"text":"在什麼情況之下?"},{"start":4823.035,"end":4839.413,"text":"你們會有所懲罰的這個部分什麼條件因為要讓大家清楚希望能夠達成三贏的政策那你3月4日既然政府已經宣告了這個對於所有的民眾都會有所影響"},{"start":4840.234,"end":4861.581,"text":"合理合情當然給予尊重但是我們不希望惡意對不對那所以請問當政府3月4號提出這樣的方針的時候你們做怎麼樣的因應我們第一個我們跟全省的這個衛生單位會有一個合作如果他地方在執行的過程中發現有可疑可疑或是異常這跟我們來這個互相資訊交換之後我們會進入了解"},{"start":4866.883,"end":4877.078,"text":"你們主動出席還是等待縣市政府?我們一方面會主動出席如果有檢舉也會調查所以我剛才也跟各位說明說我們有一個聯合"},{"start":4880.154,"end":4906.507,"text":"檢舉獎金我們有聯絡電話2351這個我們很清楚我們希望政府你是公正單位第三中立單位我們希望是真正有所作為讓民眾都能夠安心一個合情合理的一個合法的情況之下我們不希望聯合壟斷目的是這裡因為這是政府的一個重大決策而是新的那我們也希望讓大家都能夠三贏"},{"start":4907.708,"end":4907.728,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":4925.896,"end":4942.969,"text":"全台灣都會都會因為有政策就是有需求那但是我們不希望是聯合壟斷的行為好不好是我們也發文給衛福部請他轉資所有的醫療院所絕對不可以有聯合漲價的行為好我們也希望你們繼續都導資來"},{"start":4946.972,"end":4956.379,"text":"我們針對於NCC所公布的112年度通訊市場的調查結果看到2019年4億7349萬GBR提升到2023年是9億2882萬那換句話說它的增幅是倍增96%在這樣情況之下呢2023年的台灣網路調查報告更"},{"start":4971.91,"end":4988.637,"text":"顯示出台灣民眾上網使用率占最高排比的第一名是什麼是影音娛樂是影音娛樂所以主委在這樣子的大型數位平台使用網路賺錢但是他不需要任何的相關的建設成本"},{"start":4989.958,"end":5004.772,"text":"那電信業者你除了評補的標金每年你要交交這個頻率使用費負擔這個普及服務打詐等義務那麼是否會造成新興產業造成整個產業間的不公平競爭請教主委"},{"start":5009.016,"end":5029.069,"text":"我想不管是平台或是一般的業者是不是有造成不公平競爭我們還是要看具體的內容他有什麼行為造成不公平競爭所以本席跟你提出因為它已經是一年的倍增所以這個產業我們是必須要去注意因為本席也是希望能夠達到一個公平公平的一個競爭好不好"},{"start":5030.49,"end":5035.071,"text":"最後一個議題在3月6日的媒體報導在北部我們針對預售屋的部分它因為各個客戶持分的總表共同的面積 揭示的內容是有誤的"},{"start":5054.355,"end":5071.86,"text":"但是業者在有無之餘他仍舊持續以錯誤的資訊來從事交易那如果是如此的話就會造成地震機關單位錯誤訊息的一個登載那使得購車的人購車位的這個案件購車位的"},{"start":5074.821,"end":5104.821,"text":"議員．"},{"start":5105.081,"end":5105.721,"text":"委員一方面是"},{"start":5131.673,"end":5138.136,"text":"所以本席告訴你已經產生這樣的現象你要碰到一個他不負責任呢你沒有辦法去管他的民事啊所以你就你的本位"},{"start":5160.146,"end":5174.657,"text":"你的職責你們可以再怎麼樣去讓不法者不可以再不法是這一部分尤其是不動產的不死廣告或者是欺網顯示公平行為向來都是公平會重中之重重中之重啊對啊但是還是一樣這樣做啊"},{"start":5177.259,"end":5196.535,"text":"因為本席提出您有所處分就表示確實是有這個問題那有這個問題你們是不是應該可以再去研議本席的具體建議就是說我們希望讓不罰者不要再不罰讓守法者可以得到一個公平的對待行政部門也不用這麼麻煩啊你們再去研討一下好不好再去研討你的罰金是不是太輕了去研討看看好不好"},{"start":5205.362,"end":5224.337,"text":"好,把研討的方案給本席,謝謝謝謝楊澄英委員接下來我們請張嘉鈞委員發言主席我想請主委來,請李主委"},{"start":5229.042,"end":5251.346,"text":"主委,我想要請教主委有沒有用過fulpanda或者是Ubereat外送平台買過東西?有那你覺得方便嗎?算方便那除了Ubereat跟fulpanda你有使用過其他的平台嗎?我沒有使用過其他的平台但是我知道有一些其他平台"},{"start":5252.148,"end":5268.573,"text":"那根據統計呢利用外送平臺送美食的甚至購物在臺灣已經有超過八成人在使用那主委知道從事外送的相關人員總人數大概是多少嗎這一方面我比"},{"start":5270.165,"end":5278.507,"text":"本席跟主委分享是14.5萬人其實人數是非常的多這個是根據勞動部公布的資料那為什麼本席會問這個問題是因為現在市場盛傳Foodpanda可能會出售他在亞洲的業務給Uber Eats"},{"start":5293.57,"end":5319.185,"text":"那如果結合成一間公司的話那市佔率可能會超過八成那依據公平交易法第11條必須向主管機關提出申報不曉得目前是否已經有接到業者提出申報或者詢問相關結合的事宜還沒有結合申報的案件就是普天達跟Uber E目前沒有"},{"start":5321.254,"end":5336.427,"text":"所以我記得第11條上面寫說假設結合的事業占市長的三分之一以上就必須要向公平交易委員會這邊來申請這個是否正確沒有錯就是如果以復篇大跟Uber E這兩家假設他們要結合的話他應該是已經合自公平法要求要申報的結合門檻"},{"start":5349.138,"end":5361.772,"text":"雖然他們現在到目前為止還沒有接到他們的申請但未來不排除他們可能會結合那依據公平會過去的這個慣例是否會允許他結合呢?"},{"start":5363.234,"end":5393.029,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":5393.109,"end":5393.91,"text":"對經濟的利益如何我們會多方來評估"},{"start":5420.65,"end":5443.742,"text":"公平會的職責就是在守護這個市場機制避免事業利用其市場優勢來影響市場那今年公平會就對大副媒體凱基違反當初併購時的這個附加條款裁罰那目前兩間被罰的這個事業體是不是有提出意義呢?"},{"start":5445.096,"end":5462.412,"text":"這部分我們提出以後他們有提出行政徵送是那所以呢其實本席的重點還是在於說這個外送平台的結合希望公平會要負起嚴格把關的這個功能那另外呢其實呢"},{"start":5463.973,"end":5488.985,"text":"這個保障不只是只是這個有三個方向就是說供貨的商家外送的人員跟消費者我想他們是影響最深然後毫無溢價能力的人那對於外送人員的保障全國超過14萬個外送人員幾乎都是這兩大平台所屬那過去外送人員究竟是承攬制或者是雇傭制"},{"start":5489.665,"end":5495.97,"text":"常常有爭議,那對此爭議必須與此次的結合更明確地去保障外送人員的機制這一點可能要請公平會要鳴記於心是,這部分將來如果真的有結合申報我們應該要徵詢哪一些事業團體或是政府部門這我們一定會很審慎來處理"},{"start":5514.164,"end":5528.042,"text":"接下來我想要問可能大家現在目前都非常concern的一件事情就是衛福部發文取消了醫療機構這個掛號費的備查制度 不曉得主委怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":5528.843,"end":5529.063,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5548.595,"end":5577.054,"text":"現在這個爭議就是民眾非常的憂心耶如果醫療院所4億漲價對於醫療資源缺乏的地區的這些居民是影響非常大的所以呢對於衛福部謝澤說如果醫療院所聯合漲價就去跟公平會檢舉啊你對於這件事情你是怎麼看醫療院所如果聯合漲價這個違反公平交易法的規定公平交易委員會當然要依法查處"},{"start":5578.275,"end":5586.449,"text":"那我可以請問一下諸位你覺得你們人手夠嗎因為你知道現在是一條街十幾間診所他是連診所他都"},{"start":5588.12,"end":5608.231,"text":"不在他的這個監督範圍之內了那如果這個所有的民眾都來檢舉你們的人手你覺得你們夠嗎我們真的不打算向行政院提出抗議嗎我想這各部會他的政策有他的這個行程的過程但是公平會作為一個競爭主管機關即便是人手不夠也是應該要積極處理"},{"start":5609.992,"end":5628.52,"text":"我想你們當然是有苦難也但是畢竟這個衛福部是央央大部他們自己應該盡的責任不做然後卻把責任都推給你們一個委員會我真的是為你們感到不值啊所以醫療院所其實是一個特許行業那主管機關就應該負起監督的責任"},{"start":5631.621,"end":5636.304,"text":"如果說現在像負責這個產銷均衡制度的農業部都不負責了所有問題都去向你們檢舉那負責金融管理的金管會他也不管金融機構的行為了全部都回歸市場機制有問題都去向公平會檢舉啊NCC也不管傳媒啦"},{"start":5652.314,"end":5673.369,"text":"都去向公平會檢舉就好啦那以後我們中華民國的行政機關都可以裁撤掉留下公平會就好啦是不是不是這樣公平會處理的是影響市場競爭秩序的行為如果不是跟競爭秩序有關的行為那這個在各部會應該有它的另外的處理機制我是建議啊公平會你們應該要趕快提出抗議怎麼會衛福部這麼多預算這麼多人手的"},{"start":5680.954,"end":5682.916,"text":"好 謝謝專家俊委員接下來我們請蔡易瑜委員發言"},{"start":5717.288,"end":5739.602,"text":"謝謝趙委那我們是不是有請李主委來請李主委主委早主委那還是因應之前幾位委員有去問到衛福部取消這個關澳費的一個被查制那取消被查他代表的意義是什麼"},{"start":5744.485,"end":5771.456,"text":"查機制在衛福部有相關的這個他們的做法對阿阿現在取消備查跟這個掛號費未來會怎麼的怎麼的波動我的了解是將來你們的判斷呢我的了解是將來各醫療院所他的這個掛號費要收取多少各醫療院所各自去決定就各醫療院所自己去決定那如果過去是備查的話過去不可以決定嗎"},{"start":5773.154,"end":5784.869,"text":"不管是過去或是現在都不可以有聯合定價的你沒有回答我的問題我的意思是說如果是備彩的話過去他們還是可以決定他們的關號費"},{"start":5788.086,"end":5803.734,"text":"只是說因為他們備查那衛福部掌握了這個資訊那掌握這個資訊的同時也可能會多少會牽制到他們關號費的漲價是不是這個意思那未來就取消備查所以衛福部很明顯在這一塊他們是不管的"},{"start":5804.534,"end":5823.726,"text":"好 那現在就跑到了公平會的問題啦所以未來你們就會有這個責任啦好 那我想要請教是說如果針對診所漲掛號費因為取消備查然後他們之後他們之前就可以漲但是他們現在漲了那你們要怎麼認定還有聯合行為基本上如果是各漲各的這個"},{"start":5826.643,"end":5833.888,"text":"對阿問題就來了阿這麼多診所好阿如果明天我同一條街的第一家診所漲了100塊"},{"start":5836.135,"end":5863.293,"text":"那隔天第二家診所誇他漲了我也要漲那我也漲100塊那第三天第三家也漲了100塊然後一個禮拜內這一條街的七家診所全漲了100塊那這樣是不是聯合行為這個是跟漲的行為我想在商場上跟漲的行為也是常見常見嘛但是他們不是聯合行為嘛因為行為必須他們對於契約的主要內容有一定的默契的形成"},{"start":5864.073,"end":5873.337,"text":"有一定的合意嘛有這樣的合意形成才會變成聯合行為所以我只能告訴你事實上這件事情公平會未來縱使接受檢舉你們不會查"},{"start":5875.68,"end":5903.355,"text":"我們會看情況但是你們查不出什麽東西來除非你們有抓到說他們有這一家診所的七家診所引五顆零一個飯局然後大家講好說我們一起來漲是是如果有證據那跟委員說明我們去年就查到了桃園有兩家聯合那這個有這個證據對我知道你們去年有查你們有查到兩家醫院有聯合新聞所以還是要看我們掌握的證據情況但是我只能跟你說這件事事實上"},{"start":5904.595,"end":5927.083,"text":"我希望你們可以掌握但是我不覺得公平會在這件事因為可以想像的就是跟漲嘛那跟漲的結果你們查不到什麼所以這就是我要講的公平會你們把自己設限是讓你們武器比你們想像的還要小你們管不了什麼所以我要進入下一題"},{"start":5929.443,"end":5948.56,"text":"來,現在網路詐騙這麼多那網路詐騙事實上都是透過這種像Facebook、像IG這種Meta的平台很多啦,他們是大宗那你們對於這樣的網路詐騙我們公平會有希望採取怎樣的作為來有效的監管嗎?"},{"start":5952.904,"end":5971.465,"text":"網絡詐騙涉及到跨機關、跨部會的權責所以在網絡詐騙部份公平會也參與行政院的一個打詐的小組那如果網絡上的廣告涉及的是不實廣告那我們有主動監控我想在分工上針對詐騙部份你們主動監控但是你們到底監控了什麼來下一頁"},{"start":5974.535,"end":5997.468,"text":"會把常常發生不實廣告的類型好那我現在就給你看整個網路上常常會出現這些名人這個包括我們台積電的董事長夫人以及我們的主委他們都變成在教大家怎麼去做股票的投資這會不會很誇張"},{"start":5999.141,"end":6020.872,"text":"但是它確實存在啊也不僅於他們兩個啊像我們也許主委啊你的照片啊你的名字也被冒用然後也變成在對於這一些不知道的人然後去做那一些喊話請他們加入結果後來變成詐騙那像這樣像這樣的話臉書也沒管啊"},{"start":6025.178,"end":6039.408,"text":"那縱使我去澄清說這個是有問題的那有用嗎?你們對於這樣的國際大平台有沒有辦法去去處罰他們或者是要求他們必須要針對這樣的作為要怎麼做嗎?"},{"start":6040.928,"end":6064.601,"text":"如果是詐騙或者是這個投資方面的各種的這些詐騙的行為基本上在公平法裡面比較沒有處理的空間比較沒有空間嗎對啊但是我們接觸了這樣的一個臉書啊我們接觸臉書卻充斥了這樣的詐騙我相信啦依他們平台的他們平台的後台啦一定可以知道說這個詐騙集團一定是"},{"start":6067.122,"end":6087.023,"text":"多用相同來源然後去做重複註冊然後去註冊了一堆一堆的這樣的一個帳號只是說他們的來源可能是外國所以你們抓不到問題他們抓得到啊他們一定知道啊到底是哪一些族群然後去大量的註冊這樣的一個帳號應該嘛"},{"start":6091.27,"end":6093.476,"text":"阿所以你們能夠做的就是對他們處罰請他們針對這樣的行為來做遏止阿有辦法"},{"start":6098.956,"end":6120.703,"text":"現在投資這一部分我的了解是那個政見投顧法相關法律裡面有要求要這個後台是不是要脫波者是不是要有實名制的這些規定那我想透過這個實名制在這個脫波者的實名制那是他們後台去要求可是那實名制都很容易被破解啦"},{"start":6121.728,"end":6142.647,"text":"因為他們只是要提供身分證或者是怎樣 對不對 然後提供有效的這個電子帳號 他們那些都整組的啦 因為他們都到局去收集個資啊 他們還是有辦法破解啊這些詐騙行為就是刑事責任 就是這樣啦 對不對 但是我來下一頁"},{"start":6146.578,"end":6172.273,"text":"主委,事實上韓國在去年底他們事實上針對這個米塔公司他們就提出了一個針對他們的一個審查報告事實上他們就是要講對類似這樣的國際跨國的一個商譽平台電子商譽平台他們就有在做這樣的一個審查那這樣的一個審查你看韓國也是這樣做"},{"start":6173.649,"end":6193.359,"text":"所以我們公平會還是可以有所作為吧?我們其實也網路上平台有很多不實廣告我們過去也邀請了這些平台還有國內不然是國內或者是Meta邀請這些平台來共同協討論如何去解決這些不實廣告的一個問題那這個我們也有"},{"start":6198.562,"end":6224.497,"text":"既然有討論一定會有一些結論嘛那些結論有沒有落實啊這是現在重點是這樣不能只是一直在做討論啊你們還是要有一些結論的落實啊好我最後再講一個議題啦我最後講一個議題就再一分鐘就好就是讓主委你們要想你們公平會還是要面對一個問題現在整個台灣的一個貸款幾乎都銀行貸不到的就跑到這個這個叫做什麼"},{"start":6227.739,"end":6254.596,"text":"融資貸款融資公司那是這些融資公司呢 通常都是在金控公司下面喔所以他們這個融資公司跟這個金控公司有沒有做他們一些客戶資料的一些共享或者是他們這些融資公司為什麼這個銀行貸不到的就把他介紹去融資公司然後讓融資公司可以瞬間可以掌握這些客源或者是他們跟車商"},{"start":6256.671,"end":6275.202,"text":"那這中間有沒有資料的一個共享那這件事公平會要不要管我想如果是客戶資料的共享這可能是涉及到這個個人資料保護法的議題對可是他們是他們是不同公司可是他們是同一個集團的嘛這個是讓大家要知道嘛"},{"start":6275.998,"end":6277.039,"text":"公平會管嗎?公平會到底要管啊?"},{"start":6292.642,"end":6309.472,"text":"基本上個人資料保護的這個洩漏或者是客戶資料的共享在如果有涉及到競爭秩序那當然公平法有處理如果不是涉及到這個競爭秩序而是個資的保護問題那應該是使用個資法現在整個融資已經在臺灣充斥太多了然後他們不受金管會的監管"},{"start":6317.037,"end":6317.798,"text":"謝謝蔡易瑜委員接下來請陳超明委員發言"},{"start":6354.463,"end":6359.992,"text":"首先謝謝自己現在我們請公平會我們的理事會來請理事會委員長理事會好"},{"start":6368.905,"end":6395.241,"text":"那看你的業務報告裡面你說公平交易委員會只要是公平交易法及多層次的傳銷管理法啊近年來本會突破聯合行為正不易的困境你說配合了寬市政策與減給獎金的制度啊什麼是寬市的政策你告訴我一下"},{"start":6396.374,"end":6397.395,"text":"關於多層次傳銷管理"},{"start":6425.253,"end":6444.115,"text":"照苗栗叫做清零直銷公司啊這個案件是由你們公平會送到給檢察官去審判那打了九年半的官司他打贏了但是公司倒了所以我在想這個問題到底要如何來解決"},{"start":6448.664,"end":6465.929,"text":"是由公平交易委員會送給檢察官檢察官偵辦把他什麼都扣押下來整個扣押下來他打了九年半的官司最終他這家直銷公司打贏了但是公司倒閉了要如何來解決所以我在講你們要很小心不要隨便跟人家亂移送打贏了要不要申請國賓"},{"start":6477.108,"end":6477.788,"text":"今天很多人都問到"},{"start":6502.983,"end":6527.268,"text":"關於取消國安會的上限那是不是聯合的一個行為那現在你要特別注意電價上漲、國安會上漲等一下水會上漲、等一下油價又上漲台灣都一片的漲升所以衛福部部長說你們會去調查有沒有聯合漲價的行為這是來講很難調查"},{"start":6533.001,"end":6538.855,"text":"啊這一方面那為何不把這個資料丟給你們叫你們去查你們怎麼樣查還是"},{"start":6542.782,"end":6565.978,"text":"我想我們有很多查核的方式一個當然是主動如果各地方衛生單位或是我們從這個各院所的這個條帳的情形認為有可疑的地方或有異狀這個我們會來調查我看診所大概除了聯合診所有好幾家都有這樣的行為那要看地區的狀況"},{"start":6567.359,"end":6568.44,"text":"應該當醫生的人都有良心跟道德"},{"start":6596.097,"end":6618.378,"text":"那你也曉得我一直持續的關注於高通事件那我們台灣一個很特殊的方法就是7億美金的罰款可以用來投資台灣的產業來代替這個罰款我一直盯著這邊那高通公司的罰款是要到112年結事"},{"start":6621.208,"end":6630.414,"text":"但是他在111年就執行完畢結果執行完畢的話高通公司在臺灣裁員一千多人請改了7億美金是臺北最少是210億以上你現在做法出來你覺得他現在有沒有機器再來協資臺灣"},{"start":6649.709,"end":6650.776,"text":"你們有沒有做出報告?"},{"start":6656.349,"end":6669.499,"text":"這個和解方案都是白紙黑字照這個和解的內容在執行 那我們在這個和解執行期間都國科會跟經濟部都有協助相關的和解計畫有的是持續性的 不會因為和解條件就都拐拐起來喔 沒有啊 再幾年就 幾年就結束啦 112年前是你們有沒有總檢討 但是他投資的內容是有延續性的"},{"start":6684.091,"end":6690.513,"text":"所以我一直跟你講他研發中心用花粉來代替台灣投資他的研究中心如果有新的專利台灣能不能分享得到"},{"start":6705.796,"end":6707.518,"text":"我看是很困難我高通那麼大的公司實力很強大"},{"start":6729.529,"end":6741.034,"text":"你說給大學計時後5日的實驗室臺灣的公司能不能到他5日的實驗室去做實驗可能有困難那是我們的錢欸不是他的錢欸"},{"start":6745.39,"end":6754.861,"text":"我們的廠商有在那裡做實驗,我想這個都照和解企業,我們都很…有也沒有啦,我現在最忙碌,你只說和解企業,有說我們台灣的手工會去你的無機實驗室去做實驗嗎?因為產品開發時程,我們的廠商都有在那裡做"},{"start":6760.928,"end":6762.449,"text":"但是裡面一個重點專利我們可能拿不到"},{"start":6788.183,"end":6790.884,"text":"第二 台灣的廠商能不能禁止?"},{"start":6790.884,"end":6798.108,"text":"這個很重要的一個觀點 不能說我會去王家攀海啦好不好加強一下好不好 謝謝謝謝陳昌明委員 那接下來我們請賴瑞隆委員發言"},{"start":6815.865,"end":6818.03,"text":"好謝謝趙薇請主委李主委來請李主委"},{"start":6825.18,"end":6848.589,"text":"大家好公平會其實大家久久才會見一次啦因為其實平常說因為在經濟部在國會下其實公平會相對上沒有那麼的複雜不過我其實覺得我們的公平會其實可以扮演更重要的一個角色相較於日本韓國在我認為不是那麼消極的處理這樣公平的業務我認為其實包括公平甚至一些消費者相關問題應該更著重一點"},{"start":6850.45,"end":6867.475,"text":"讓公平會有更強的一個功能也更回應社會的期待台灣看待執政黨不是公平會一樣是執政的一部分執政的一個角色政府的角色所以我希望未來部長能夠更加重這樣的一個功能那我想今天還是要來談我之前也開過一個記者會就針對於這個Nixon的這個遊戲他在韓國的時候他"},{"start":6875.063,"end":6880.269,"text":"偷偷的修改它甚至沒有公告所以它被整個韓國的公平會重罰了"},{"start":6884.752,"end":6909.219,"text":"116億韓元相當於2.75億的臺幣那我想問一下因為我們臺灣也有代理這個新風之國也有代理這個遊戲那我上次有提到我希望我們也要立案去調查到底我們有沒有我們的代理業者有沒有也涉及到這樣的隱匿的狀況因為這個這個其實都是很誇張的因為你本來都已經有基本的獲利可獲得了如果你調降他機率的話"},{"start":6910.439,"end":6927.373,"text":"像有的甚至韓國那更惡劣是0的話你怎麼抽也抽不到那幾乎每每有一個玩家只要每抽一次你就每賺一次而且必賺的這是完全的侵犯到消費者權益完全的不完全不合理齁這個政府應該要有所作為我問一下主委調查開始進行調查了嗎什麼時候會出來"},{"start":6927.773,"end":6930.416,"text":"韓國政府有韓國政府的作為,台灣政府當然也有台灣政府的作為"},{"start":6948.692,"end":6952.437,"text":"所以開始有立案調查?已經立案調查那什麼時候會出來?我想我們會看整個也要相關的事證主委給個時間吧這件事情韓國在1月份都已經調查出來都開罰了然後我們已經經過了現在3月了經過兩個月了"},{"start":6966.135,"end":6969.9,"text":"我們盡快來處理公平會我覺得每次最可惜就是什麼東西都是盡快但是展現出效率人民其實不會給政府那麼多時間的"},{"start":6986.254,"end":6986.514,"text":"韓國已經發生這樣狀況重罰"},{"start":7007.338,"end":7032.874,"text":"重罰了這個2.75億台幣這樣的一個金額我們希望台灣的代理廠商有沒有盡快調查出來有的話該重罰重罰沒有的話也讓大家讓王家們知道台灣其實並沒有產生這樣的問題好嗎好謝謝三個月那再來我想要再講的上次的部分其實有關於不實的資訊的時候那其實公平委罰過了兩次那兩次各罰兩百萬"},{"start":7034.535,"end":7052.154,"text":"相較於韓國發生這樣的狀況：他站在整個公平的角度：站在保障消費的角度：他給予廠商重罰2.75億：這個絕對是重：對他們來產生影響：但是即使如此的話：對他們來說也是他們營業額很小的一個比例而已"},{"start":7052.895,"end":7059.358,"text":"部長我們未來如果有查到任何這樣狀況的話我們會不會採取比較重的一個處罰這是整個罰環的高低多少在委員會會討論那對於這種網路激勵型遊戲的這個不是廣告將來如果查證屬實我們會朝重罰的方向"},{"start":7073.685,"end":7101.841,"text":"韓國的總統是用他認為這個已經涉及到詐欺了他認為這是在不時的去詐欺確實嘛你根本就不見了坦白講啦一百次不見了會抓到一兩次嘛因為這要抓到沒那麼容易嘛但是你抓到了你有沒有政府有一個機制讓人民感受到政府這件事情是完全站在消費者的角度的立場在捍衛的如果有的話那些業者他就會發現喔這開玩笑這這不能開玩笑這一法道很重的"},{"start":7102.741,"end":7121.776,"text":"我認為台灣的公平會在這件事情上面要採取更強硬態度你可以這個重罰的上限我記得是2500萬嘛對不對但是你們只罰了200萬主委當時的考量是什麼為什麼不給予罰重一點200萬九牛一毛是九牛一毛那一天大概一天隨便也超過他的200萬"},{"start":7123.288,"end":7139.169,"text":"一天收入的玩家買這些的早就超過了那為什麼就罰個200萬是不是大家覺得官方在負責這些玩家這個業者最主要是說像第二家我們罰200萬是他跟玩家有很迅速的採取一些合理的"},{"start":7140.411,"end":7156.168,"text":"這個和解補償的機制就是對王家有意義去回應這一件事情所以我們在整個即使是這樣子啦齁主委你看一下後面啦所有的網路上面有在參與這件事情其實很多人都說很不滿的對政府在這件事情上你要稍微去查一下就知道"},{"start":7157.253,"end":7176.179,"text":"非常高的比例 非常的不滿 因為他覺得你很難抓到 抓到以後輕罰兩百萬政府其實毫無作為的 他也很輕鬆啊 業者沒有壓力啊 他當然沒有壓力啊你抓到也是兩百萬而已嘛 我當然有很強烈的去隱匿甚至很強烈的 甚至於更惡劣的是詐欺的動機嘛 獲利這麼的大 抓到頂多兩百萬而已"},{"start":7180.62,"end":7205.469,"text":"這完全不符合比例所以我意思說不要看那個什麼個人和解的抓到了就該要重罰就該要重罰我會持續盯著這個案子好不好很多的玩家特別是年輕世代的玩家他們不見得會具體的讓你政府感受到但是他們的不滿其實是累積在心中的他是不滿的政府沒有作為他們是不滿的"},{"start":7206.829,"end":7219.621,"text":"所以我希望這件事情公平會有能力有角色的時候要扮演起這樣的功能跟角色好嗎我們來看一下日本有一個叫錦平表示法他對於不實的廣告不實的那部分可以罰獲利的3%"},{"start":7222.503,"end":7224.586,"text":"公平委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":7239.924,"end":7265.478,"text":"這個稅後的淨利的話12.8億如果照這樣的3%至少重罰也要3800萬3800萬我們的法制到2500萬你至少要重罰到2500萬才可以讓人民感受到說讓業者感到說我政府對這件事情確實是對於你們這樣的隱匿對你們甚至可能涉及到炸機是非常的不滿非常有意見跟人民跟消費者站在一起的所以我希望如果未來有查到的話該重罰就可以重罰好嗎"},{"start":7266.328,"end":7278.874,"text":"在這個法法的額度上那各界的期待我們在委員會也會充分來討論我還是要提醒齁委員會裡面當然充分來討論但是如果任何的作為出來跟人民有很大落差的時候這個都是政府要去承擔的"},{"start":7279.819,"end":7306.558,"text":"委員們一起進來但是將來有任何的作為都是政府要承擔而主委在這裡面應該要陳述清楚因為你會來到國會會被被詢因為你要對人民來負責你會第一線的接受人民的一個負責的感受所以我認為這件事情要在委員會裡面不斷的要去表述清楚不然要去跟委員們溝通、輕罰這件事情並不困難嘛但如果站在消費者的角度、站在人民的角度給予合理的處罰甚至給予重罰的話"},{"start":7308.545,"end":7324.878,"text":"讓不敢有輕易的一個空間的話這個其實才是符合人民的期待我想整體法環的提高這部分我們會裡面會來民間也有在提到甚至希望建立轉蛋法越來越多的線上遊戲越來越多的這種的部分主委認為需要來立轉蛋法嗎針對一個單一的"},{"start":7338.1,"end":7348.772,"text":"我再次提醒這件事情的它的影響跟獲利其實相當的大是不是要立專法這個可以來討論但是我希望政府要有所作為如果單一的事情遲遲無法解決的話"},{"start":7349.633,"end":7370.913,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7371.391,"end":7371.471,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7388.437,"end":7412.501,"text":"請主委去考慮一下好不好就對於它的特別是那種蘇維化的轉蛋的部分它的獲利巨大的時候韓國都可以罰到2.75億如果你的上限只有2500萬再怎麼罰想要中我罰只給我2500萬當然就罰不上去了我希望主委慎重思考一下怎麼樣的來不一定全部拿進來但是怎麼樣用這個這個形式達到我們期待如果萬一它違法重罰給業者賀足利的效果好不好好謝謝主委好謝謝"},{"start":7420.128,"end":7437.607,"text":"好,接下來請邱志偉委員發言林德福委員林德福委員不在,我們請邱志偉委員發言好,謝謝主席,有請公民會的李主委來,請李主委"},{"start":7445.16,"end":7471.178,"text":"主席,貴會防治人為操縱物價專案小組是你當主席嗎?我們副主委我也會參加主動監測的這些項目是正面表列還是你們列舉的?我們重點是這一些,如果有其他在這上面沒有的有必要的話也會一起掌握你那個就是蔬果類,玉米、白米這些,然後油、糖"},{"start":7472.176,"end":7487.125,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7488.459,"end":7505.617,"text":"比較常見的我們是固定會監控那會因為每一個時間哪一段時間在價格上比較有異常需要特別注意的我們也會一起來監控那你這個範圍你再去檢討一下你大概是屬於這些農畜產品嘛農畜產品嘛那漁產品呢"},{"start":7510.606,"end":7510.706,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7530.634,"end":7553.069,"text":"這個農林移牧各種產品非常多那你要針對就沒有一個魚嘛魚都沒有嘛那魚會不會有人文操縱也有可能啊是有需要的話我們也會一起來看當然有需要我才會提醒你嘛所以我希望你下一次就把這些品項能夠正面表列包括農、魚、農多少品項、魚多少產品項、水多少品項"},{"start":7556.051,"end":7556.292,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7564.932,"end":7565.913,"text":"主任委員會主席"},{"start":7588.168,"end":7612.339,"text":"有委員有提到那個部分你說兩個月之內要完成會審然後要提到委員會討論那最後的結論是怎麼樣11月給你質詢你兩個月會審你把我的諮詢話你就聽一聽隨便給我答一答後面就沒有沒有沒有任何動作沒有任何積極作為這個我會繼續追蹤喔你告訴我你不知道說現在進度怎麼樣"},{"start":7614.861,"end":7624.891,"text":"到底有沒有完成資料會診這部分已經委員全行的部分我們已經有提供資料那我們在這個那調查結果是怎麼樣嗎"},{"start":7627.725,"end":7627.985,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7645.586,"end":7667.268,"text":"那得到結論說事實上那個關鍵字插入要形成關鍵字甚至構成不法他顯示出來是要廣告主去買關鍵字而且他要使用關鍵字功能那Google他有一些方便措施他本身就是如果廣告主或全面的你把那個我們當次你們討論的會議的議程跟結論情形跟討論情形一份資料給我"},{"start":7667.808,"end":7677.919,"text":"好沒有問題你們是用臨時動議去討論的沒有沒有我們是體委會審議喔你確定你們給我知道是用16334會議你們是臨時用臨時動議沒有錯嘛我們有正式討論我們有正式討論"},{"start":7686.147,"end":7698.574,"text":"有正式討論應該有列案來當議程的討論嘛那時候因為這個我剛剛給你這些細節你這資料給我看不是 你這邊答案戶說你要好好去打送委員會審查我們那個會議審議案要處罰哪一些那列審議案那這個是根據根據這個調查的結果到委員會去說明所以他會在臨時動議裡面讓其他的委員知道這件事情那我們審議案就是已經具體個案要"},{"start":7713.163,"end":7715.086,"text":"我們有正式提報告案在委員會也有充分討論"},{"start":7729.191,"end":7746.445,"text":"這個你們把會議的整個議程,包括你們討論情形,那個會議基礎再給我一份。我知道會會的事情我為什麼會質詢,因為很重要。那你們處理你不能太草率、太輕忽啊。這樣的處理態度我覺得相對是消極的。"},{"start":7749.394,"end":7749.554,"text":"綠色的轉型"},{"start":7772.43,"end":7787.002,"text":"這個很多企業都要面臨綠色轉型的問題那這個轉型的過程中因為很複雜有很多相關的這些法律的規定並不是每個業者特別是中小型業者都不是那麼的清楚都有可能因此這個踩到這個競爭法的紅線"},{"start":7791.004,"end":7808.626,"text":"那如果在這個過程中你踩到這個紅線那這個公平會有沒有相關的這個指引辦法讓這些中小業者有所指引、有所遵循我也不知道有沒有專業人員去"},{"start":7809.307,"end":7810.048,"text":"我們對於這個企業齁"},{"start":7825.509,"end":7853.292,"text":"如何去避免有聯合行為我們有定一些指引那在平時的這個每個我們去年還做的到各個行業去針對他量身定做我針對是這個綠色轉型而且是針對這個中小企業中小企業你要綠色轉型的過程中有很多法律或者他們人才不足那需要這種相關的指引他們才有所依循嘛"},{"start":7853.892,"end":7863.466,"text":"日本公平會在去年就發布相關的遵法指引那怎麼樣讓他們避免在這個綠色轉移過程中來違反這個相關的獨占相關的這個公平法"},{"start":7869.353,"end":7883.94,"text":"這個部分針對中小企業律師轉型過程中你們要發布相關的指引,這樣可以嗎?跟委員報告一下那個有關律師的指引日本這個我們有掌握啦那其實他主要是針對提供業者一些比較明確不違法的依據這個如同委員剛剛所講"},{"start":7885.04,"end":7906.475,"text":"那他所提到這些問題當然主要是涉及到同業之間聯合行為那聯合行為的目的是要實現綠色轉型的目的那對於這樣的問題我們也會遇到那我目前可以做我沒有像貝斯這樣的具體的該案處理原則但是這如果類似的案子出現目前我們是沒有類似的案子你最好是有該案你就不用去跟這個去做輔導"},{"start":7907.696,"end":7932.529,"text":"你看到你的概覽你就知道怎麼去處理的日本訂得出來我又不相信我們台灣訂不出來其實最主要原因是因為概覽的製作通常我們必須要有一些實際案例的經驗我們才能夠知道怎麼去訂那個具體的概覽內容不過因為目前如果真的有這個案例推脫之時我不見得說一定有實際案例的經驗你可以參逐國外的立法院你不要推脫之時我不曉得還有沒有說臨時提案如果說臨時提案委員會不收我就在院會提臨時提案"},{"start":7933.63,"end":7949.618,"text":"你6個月之內定定相關指引,然後讓這些中小企業在轉型過程中、綠色轉型過程中有所依據,可以嗎?我們朝這個方向來思考,不過就跟委員...不要說朝這個方向,你不要抽象地跟我講朝這個方向思考。我想要講的是...我已經第4屆,我必須要遵守這個質詢的相關的規範。"},{"start":7953.15,"end":7972.317,"text":"時間到了,我就不能再用太多的時間,因為我也講到後面這個委員諮詢的權益 這個諮詢的倫理、諮詢的次序也很重要那個是不是請公平會會後再擺一個...主席,你就直接踩一次,六個月有困難嗎?你把相關的資金訂出來我們朝這個方向來努力看看"},{"start":7974.193,"end":7974.653,"text":"謝謝我們接下來請鄭正前委員發言"},{"start":8008.32,"end":8009.587,"text":"主席好,我想請一下李主委來請主委"},{"start":8018.511,"end":8037.365,"text":"主委好,我想公平會其實對整個台灣整個市場當中的公平性其實有很大的關係因為這個我看這個公平會的整個主要的架構當中的時候我們今天大概有四個案例要提出來第一個是有關於整個電信業合併案就是2023年7月20號通過遠傳併亞太"},{"start":8040.888,"end":8065.027,"text":"10月11日通過了臺灣大病臺灣之心這兩個合併案其實大概都有一些附加的條件才讓他們通過我想說請教一下到今年為止他們有提出他們的一個具體的實施成果有提出他們的一個報告出來嗎?這位"},{"start":8067.799,"end":8069.02,"text":"對於這樣的狀態的時候是不是有違公平會當時所設立的一個合併條件?"},{"start":8097.547,"end":8123.583,"text":"要如何去維護消費者的一個權益謝謝委員的推詢當時我們的條件是從資費方面第一個過去這個臺灣之心的過去的這些合約除了資費之外 品質肯定是重要的條件之一那委員提到這個問題其實NCC他已經有一個觀測小組所以你們有跟NCC有聯絡"},{"start":8124.343,"end":8126.964,"text":"如果沒有履行這個負擔的話在公平會是有相當的處罰"},{"start":8148.413,"end":8174.967,"text":"什麼樣的處罰?我們有一個是法環或者是限期改正等等會看這個違反的情形對於這樣子的合併案呢華凡跟限期改正已經基本上已經很難去要求我講的狀態是說他們基本上已經違反了條件尤其像服務品質這個問題的時候那他們如果沒有直接去落實的時候你要他們限期改正我覺得也是有困難的不過因為這個東西才一年還沒有到我想說你們"},{"start":8175.767,"end":8177.489,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":8195.931,"end":8219.501,"text":"那我知道剛剛主委有回應那個另外委員有提到氣雲案這個問題因為我覺得氣雲案這個部分我覺得它比較特別的點是因為當時在2017年的時候公平月直接呼籲氣雲案的傳銷商跟公司解約嘛那麼在2023年的時候呢其實後來就發現了那個對於他們負責人的案子的時候呢其實是"},{"start":8222.216,"end":8224.017,"text":"那是有一個訴訟情形,我們請處長說明"},{"start":8241.363,"end":8255.497,"text":"是跟這個委員報告青雲這家公司呢那個我們移送給這個苗栗地檢署去偵辦之後呢他是有不斷的這個上訴所以中間確實如剛剛委員所提到他是有有勝訴有敗訴那最後的一個結果"},{"start":8257.999,"end":8283.998,"text":"是法院是沒有判這個負責人他們有罪我這邊直接問一個點在2017年的時候公平就呼籲大家解約嘛因為當時整個我們二省的時候是贏的狀態的時候呼籲解約可是問題是打到2023年的時候法院無罪判定當中直接表示說那個他們並非那個變質多層次傳銷直接表示他們並非多層次傳銷那以這樣的狀態來講的時候我們公平會"},{"start":8287.581,"end":8309.348,"text":"之前的這樣的一個行政的裁決會不會有一些缺失的部分我們要怎麼去因應後續的部分這個在我們當時的一個判斷其實我確實那時候法院的一個見解跟本會的一個見解可能有所出入那這個法院那邊是認為說它不是變質但是我們當時移送的時候我們是認為它是一個變質的一個傳銷"},{"start":8313.669,"end":8342.656,"text":"那其實法院的這個判決的見解也有兩度都是支持我們的相同的一個見解兩度是過程嗎?最後就是不是所以在這個案子當中的時候我發現我們公民會行政走的前面那法院判決之後打臉了我們公民會這邊的決議可是我想去講另外一個案子就是在整個那個永慶跟信義房屋的案子當中的時候就是永慶事實上在"},{"start":8344.167,"end":8369.693,"text":"信義房屋比較早就提出了這個案子可是我們公平會當時說要先司法後行政跟七雲這案子剛好是相反的一個情況那我們公平會在處理這不同個案當中的時候有沒有一些標準比方說針對那個關鍵字SEO的部分平台演算法這樣的一個這個案子當中的時候呢那我們公平會這邊是要求先司法後行政"},{"start":8370.593,"end":8389.566,"text":"所以等到司法判決之後我們公平會才要來做後續的一些行政的一個裁處那跟之前清雲案是完全反過來的一個情況所以說針對這個部分那我們公平會怎麼去針對不同的個案去做不同的判斷到底是要先司法還是要先行政"},{"start":8391.141,"end":8403.073,"text":"因為那個變質多層次傳銷在我們的這個多層次傳銷管理法18條是直接就是刑事責任那營業回放在我們的24條裡面有規範所以我們還是會看一下這個情況所以這個"},{"start":8404.963,"end":8405.123,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8426.689,"end":8447.586,"text":"你剛剛特別提到在慶雲這個案件當中的時候是先行政後司法你說因為是跟多層次傳銷的相關的法律有關可是因為最後針對他們負責的部分法院是直接判定他們並非變質的多層次傳銷這個部分請之後到本辦公室來做一個說明"},{"start":8448.106,"end":8467.484,"text":"因為對於這些相關的他們的會員的一些權益我們後續是不是會有可能會有救濟的方式請你並跟本席做說明那最後這邊我要問一個狀態就是最近大家很關心的其實是衛福部這邊針對掛號費的部分就是諸位有沒有看過這個公文"},{"start":8469.161,"end":8472.462,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":8492.466,"end":8492.726,"text":"公平會支持?"},{"start":8508.524,"end":8509.445,"text":"我們要去查他橫向事件有沒有勾結"},{"start":8529.258,"end":8529.658,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員"},{"start":8550.603,"end":8578.644,"text":"基本上我覺得衛福部沒有扮演好一個很好的一個角色所以本席也希望說公平會這邊能夠跟衛福部跟訓練部長這邊再做一個溝通對於這樣子的一個動作是不是適合那請那個主委這邊站在公平的角度來跟衛福部這邊進行一個溝通讓民眾不要擔心整個那個那個掛號費大幅的提高好不好因為我們一定查處而且嚴處"},{"start":8579.554,"end":8580.555,"text":"王美惠 陳冠廷 林楚英 陳俊宇"},{"start":8598.483,"end":8617.893,"text":"陳俊宇委員不在、林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在、徐欣盈、徐欣盈、徐欣盈委員不在、高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在．我們請洪孟凱委員發言主席謝謝麻煩請李主委來請主委"},{"start":8625.472,"end":8639.808,"text":"委員長 主委好 主委 我想直接就教 在過去大家都很關心的民間通稱所謂的轉蛋法 在這個事件上面其實最主要還是一樣 強調公平跟透明的機制跟原則"},{"start":8640.916,"end":8656.072,"text":"那我們現在看到是說台灣的遊戲代理商的爭議啊調查確實有違反公平交易法第21條跟第4項的準用第一項規定儲200萬元的罰款但是今年啊我們看到"},{"start":8658.352,"end":8685.299,"text":"這個遊戲代理的韓國母公司被韓國的公平交易委員會宣布除以116億韓元除兩2.75億新台幣的新高這也是遊戲界電子交易商品法違法的歷史新高這是在韓國的一個紀錄人家可以處罰到2.75億我們最高只有200萬會不會覺得我們的法令武器太少太弱而且不痛不癢"},{"start":8686.311,"end":8710.784,"text":"我們的法定的最高罰款有到2500萬那至於罰款的多少我們會看個案的案情還有這個被檢舉事業他對這件事情後來處理的態度等等那我們台灣遊戲代理商的爭議到最後只有儲200萬的罰款你說最高可以到2000、200是最低下限是不是?"},{"start":8712.032,"end":8735.382,"text":"從五萬到兩千五百萬五萬到兩千所以說他其實他的裁量空間非常的大那也許對你們來講是覺得說哇五萬最低五萬但我處罰兩百萬好像很大但不是啊對遊戲廠商來講他可能他的一個規模市場他可能是幾億幾十億的規模市場你看現在電視廣告會打電視廣告的有哪一些業者你有沒有看"},{"start":8736.431,"end":8760.871,"text":"要嘛就是汽車要嘛就遊戲對不對就代表是說會打電視廣告會打遊戲會打電視廣告代表說他的市場真的很大那本期並不是講是說遊戲廠商不能做大但是他在做大的前提之下他要符合公平原則所以說這才是民間一直在吹聲說所謂的轉蛋法那現在我們講是說我們只有200萬的罰環你說最高可以2000萬"},{"start":8763.409,"end":8790.745,"text":"兩千五百萬可是韓國可以罰到2.75億等於是又再是我們最高的十倍所以換言之我們現在與時俱進的情況下尤其是看到他們市場規模那麼大那我們是不是應該要考慮有沒有要做調整法律的裁罰的範圍或者是說未來這樣的一個類型的違反的時候我們要以更高標準來要求我想謝謝委員的推詢基本上"},{"start":8792.086,"end":8795.149,"text":"我們可不可以先簡單講一下就是說這一次這個罰200萬這個遊戲廠商的部分我們那時候考量"},{"start":8813.146,"end":8813.486,"text":"市場機制、過去營業額、用戶人數"},{"start":8831.374,"end":8852.127,"text":"有嗎?怎麼我們看到很多大家討論上來講還是覺得說他是隱瞞這個是逼到說大家已經群起激憤然後網紅票出來那一開始的時候人家質疑的時候這個廠商好像還是顧左右而言他講說是韓國母公司有規定"},{"start":8855.136,"end":8872.242,"text":"本席現在不是檢討單一廠商本席現在講的其實是一個通盤性的問題因為我們要良幣驅逐劣幣嘛我們希望是建立一個好的一個公平機制讓台灣的遊戲市場更健全也讓我們的玩家更有保障那公平會當然在這個角色上就扮演非常重要"},{"start":8872.782,"end":8896.539,"text":"我會看贊同委員的意見就是將來在這個法環的考量上會同盤做一個考量是不是可以考量我覺得第一這個公司他到底他的營業額的一個因為他講這樣的廣告這樣的機率讓大家覺得是說機率高就投入了那可能他的營業額確實也提升那確實提升的情況下你不能用不公平的機率來去誘騙玩家所以第一他的營業額應該不要考量第二"},{"start":8898.18,"end":8921.72,"text":"用戶人數到底影響到多廣要被考量以及更重要的是他今天宣稱這樣子的一個機率有沒有變成是他強打廣告的一個部分有人講什麼調保率百分百首局開抽一定抽到什麼五星級武將還是什麼有啊都有這種廣告嘛那本席現在講是說這些一定都要考量進去你認同嗎"},{"start":8923.615,"end":8952.058,"text":"那再來主委請教之前有講到是說行政院消保處跟數位部合作要推動強制公開轉彈中獎機率那也要有這個什麼驗證機制啊那還要有這個驗證機制的發起消機會要發起第三方轉彈機率驗證網等於是好像有一個第三方的公證平台告訴大家是說這個遊戲他到底他的這個機率是不是公平的"},{"start":8952.859,"end":8977.548,"text":"那未來我們這個公平交易委員會這邊能夠扮演什麼樣的角色是不是能夠一起跨部會的整合來推動這樣的一個第三方別的還是你認為說這可能有自愛難行之處這部分我們有跨機關都有一起討論只要相關的法令規定業者要公佈機率要揭露機率那你這個機率跟實際不實這就是不實廣告這公平會會依公平法來決定那我們有辦法查證嗎"},{"start":8978.408,"end":9002.888,"text":"我現在對現在就是說他可能他就推給說這是母公司他不是臺灣的研發公司他可能是從韓國代理進口的母公司那母公司跟有商業機密考量過去他就是這樣講就是說我們能不能就是去驗證確認他確實譬如說公布10%的中獎機率他就確實10%在基地是否確不確實是確實是不好去查證但是我們想跨部會"},{"start":9006.05,"end":9031.643,"text":"那這個是可以哪一個單位來做是公平會、速發部還是消基會還是哪一個單位可以確實告訴我們是說讓玩家其實很簡單就像食品衛生那個牛奶它裡面有多少成分的這個乳蛋白多少成分的脂肪它可能也會有衛福部來去做一個確認嘛那一樣的道理今天業者宣稱說我這個遊戲多少的機率那是哪一個單位可以去確認是說他講的是確實的"},{"start":9033.264,"end":9038.388,"text":"那個細節我們請處長跟委員說明簡單30秒好不好跟委員報告有關於這個線上遊戲機率的驗證問題在之前是沒有一個客觀的一個驗證單位沒有錯但是數位部呢其實他有為請那個台科他去做一些事辦那已經促成了台科他現在"},{"start":9053.356,"end":9081.461,"text":"他們是有一個可以驗證的這樣一個單位那什麼時候?在哪裡?官網嗎?那個詳細的資料是不是請公平會再交給黃孟凱委員給本席一個資料但更重要的是拜託主委該召集公平會這邊召集速發部召集消極會來做開會討論因為轉蛋法已經討論很多遍了而且最重要的是透明公開的資訊讓業者能夠符合標準以及讓玩家能夠放心市場才會大我們就請他交資料給您好不好"},{"start":9082.661,"end":9103.348,"text":"謝謝各位謝謝接下來我們請鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在請王世堅委員王委員你下次可不可以做到委員席來因為那裡是記者席我會會沒注意到有委員在現場不好意思有有有預備"},{"start":9107.506,"end":9117.276,"text":"你台北起來不是正咖啦,我們這裡那是正咖。謝謝主席。謝謝主席,我請那個李主委。來請李主委。"},{"start":9127.933,"end":9154.061,"text":"我看了你一整本報告其實公平交易委員會是蠻認真的有實際在做很多事情像你們對於多層次傳銷那這麼多年來你們長期的追蹤、關注那也去處罰我確實有意識他們一些不法的行為但是我覺得還是有很多地方你們比方說像對於"},{"start":9156.483,"end":9177.903,"text":"這個建商啊他們在銷售房屋這個部分利用不實的廣告欺騙那麼消費者那這利用這種資訊不對等利用專業知識的不對等那麼這已經長期以來啊消費者都被這麼的欺負"},{"start":9179.113,"end":9197.837,"text":"最傷腦筋的是說這消費者在買房子這可能是他一輩子的積蓄好不容易才買那麼一戶房子這不是買一包糖果不是買一杯泡沫紅茶那如果這樣被騙了、矇騙了那麼那個損失是非常龐大的那我認為你們在建商的查查跟處罰方面我幾個字形容高舉輕放"},{"start":9209.741,"end":9221.647,"text":"比如說這幾個我收集到的案例像這個所謂的青森院、文心愛樂、新樂雅筑這都你們查到的阿、大植物會、紐約時尚這些阿我舉例啦文心愛樂"},{"start":9229.673,"end":9242.942,"text":"五十億的銷售額五十億你們罰款一百五十萬其他你像說大慈惠十億的銷售額你罰八十萬所以我覺得這些建商根本啊"},{"start":9244.282,"end":9261.367,"text":"不動不癢所以也不當一回事所以他們繼續謀混也繼續欺騙消費者用這種不實誇大像已經很清楚最主要是分區使用明明是工業區他也蓋住宅商業區他也蓋住宅"},{"start":9264.668,"end":9285.232,"text":"然後在他們的廣告上面還打成溫馨的住宅溫馨的套房直接這樣的用語耶就大剌剌的公平交易法第21條很清楚不實廣告因為不實廣告而影響交易決心則這個當然要罰不但要罰而且重罰"},{"start":9291.376,"end":9318.947,"text":"兩千五百萬元捏而且不改善的話可以再處罰五千萬元欸李主委罰兩千五百萬元喔不改善再罰五千萬元我請問啊一個五十億銷售案的房子可能說欸三五個月就要賣我嗎不是啊你處罰他以後他搞不好賣三個月五個月賣半年以上還在賣"},{"start":9320.137,"end":9337.976,"text":"又同樣的廣告又繼續賣那你們後續接著也不乏不乏就任命他繼續蹂躪消費者我們中山區這個大直啊最出名的大灣北段這個案子"},{"start":9339.039,"end":9363.474,"text":"大灣北段好多建商去那邊啃食總共蓋了1880戶他那個就是在所謂的特定商業區上面不能蓋住宅那要蓋住宅可以那麼由建商去變更地目那個要繳相當的回饋金或者回饋條件給政府他不這麼做建商便移形式1880戶"},{"start":9366.616,"end":9392.649,"text":"的購買的市民朋友們長期以來受到後續市政府的追蹤追殺啦要把他們罰款啦連續罰以後還可以斷水斷電李主委人民有免於恐懼的自由好不容易存了一大筆錢畢生的積蓄買一個小窩給全家人安心來"},{"start":9395.728,"end":9396.008,"text":"所以啊"},{"start":9422.847,"end":9438.595,"text":"公平交易委員會如果沒有事實的在該處理的時候介入那就會任命這些惡劣囂張的建商一而再再而三欺負我們的民眾欺負消費者"},{"start":9440.229,"end":9462.291,"text":"這樣的情況一而再再而三的發生還有最近其實這10來年來也都這樣你看滿康滿谷電視上公車廣告上廣播節目上這種不實的藥品廣告食藥署已經追蹤而且還提出了十大違規"},{"start":9464.675,"end":9484.972,"text":"實要的廣告單的清澈．廣告名單清澈．結果這一些啊．我們公平交易委員會竟然怎麼說．他說你們要講一個道理．你說這個主管機關啊．他們有去罰了．所以公平交易委員會就沒有介入．錯了李主委 錯了．"},{"start":9487.253,"end":9500.588,"text":"你本來就應該去裁罰這跟他的主管機關有沒有裁罰他其實無關他的主管機關啊多數也跟你們公平交易委員會一樣怎麼樣勒高舉輕放高高舉起啦"},{"start":9507.247,"end":9511.77,"text":"輕輕放下怎麼知道他輕輕放下你看到他們這些違規的藥品、廣告還在電視、廣播媒體上、主流電視上侵害、強害我們的視覺觀瞻繼續欺騙消費者這就是啊不是嗎所以"},{"start":9529.759,"end":9553.875,"text":"所以我希望你拿出公平交易法第21條重罰這些違規的廠商們才有辦法遏止他們好不好那些違反公平法的這些事業應該予以嚴處我想這也是我們本來就應該要這麼處理好我下次還會繼續問你看從今天開始以後你重處了哪一些好不好好謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝"},{"start":9565.506,"end":9581.993,"text":"好,登記發言的委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢,詢答結束今天沒有書面質詢,如果書面質詢換未及答覆的部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本日議程處理完均,星期三繼續開會,現在休息謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"15709","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15709","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373da7f870fb2fb2a5c390a0be61fea148183be8d109af184be4527977117908ea6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部列席就「國家運動科學中心如何協助運動選手，提升參加國際競賽成績之具體作為。」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-03-11","start_time":"2024-03-11T08:30:30+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:45:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":11670,"委員發言時間":"08:30:30 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選手心理訓練課程心智訓練系統提供運動心理師使用落實運動心理實務資源增能在運動營養方面因應選手賽事的需求開發適合選手於賽前中後等能量與營養補給點心設計兼具營養與家鄉口味配料餐包"},{"start":2299.611,"end":2317.737,"text":"讓選手在國外比賽也能品嚐到熟悉的家鄉料理也同時建立常到營養代謝檢測模式進行個體化的營養評估與建立為選手的運動表現和健康狀況提供輔助作業建立個別化功能營養補給提升強調以提升選手體內"},{"start":2321.278,"end":2330.802,"text":"立憲提供能肌肉合成與軟組織修復能力的飲食策略促進訓練效力及運動後疲勞恢復也針對量級運動選手搭配訓練週期進行生理與生化評估由營養師調整選手營養需求協助選手控制"},{"start":2343.399,"end":2351.669,"text":"賽期體重．擬定個別化最佳減重策略及過半後恢復之營養策略在運動科技與資訊導入方面"},{"start":2355.342,"end":2379.49,"text":"其中在科技導入運動的訓練工作方向建構5G邊緣運算整合物聯網傳感套件與智慧影像辨識分析技術監控專項運動選手訓練過程及收集相關運算分析數據及時提供教練與選手於現場找出最佳表現之關鍵因素生理特徵等"},{"start":2380.43,"end":2401.635,"text":"以及建構數據分析運算平台透過真實賽事數據的資料訓練場域AI影像分析生成式AI大型語言模型技術與邊緣運算解決方案進行應用整合建立即時賽況模擬生成式訓練系統以利選手適應比賽時之壓力"},{"start":2404.696,"end":2427.006,"text":"在科技導入賽事的勤收工作方面運科中心將科技能量導入賽事勤收依循專項運動需求建構高速度與低延遲分析平台並完備中基站與運科中心跨國連接路由與賽事場地區域連接以及勤收內容資訊安全"},{"start":2428.687,"end":2449.843,"text":"確保網絡提供情收系統於高負載需求條件下仍能保持穩定運行數據中心也透過AI影像辨識技術與數據分析演算法收集運動選手於國內外運動賽事的即時表現數據比賽結果、影像回放以及生理數據等並透過賽事場地的邊緣"},{"start":2457.188,"end":2473.96,"text":"將運動員表現數據、生理監測數據、比賽結果等所有相關訊息平台串接,透過圖表與動畫、形式呈現提供表現的深入洞察,優化訓練和比賽的策略。在行收資源工作方面則透過"},{"start":2474.781,"end":2493.267,"text":"建構互動式網頁系統即時回饋教練選手可以遠端線上使用在國內訓練期間和國外比賽期間都可以參考敵我的記載數分析結果及精華影片以及透過數據統整建構完整全級系統資料庫並協助選手依據統整數據進行對手的對戰觀念教育另外開發"},{"start":2500.97,"end":2511.768,"text":"與求單打自動化標記系統以近期單雙打賽事前八強進行賽事資料分析協助提供選手在參賽國際賽事時參考。"},{"start":2515.424,"end":2535.591,"text":"第5個部分在運動醫療照護部分運科中心扮演選手醫療照護平台整合的角色以選手照護需求為出發點建立個人化專案醫療小組支援模式協助其傷勢治療與監控用以輔助評估傷後回場訓練"},{"start":2537.031,"end":2561.753,"text":"同時也針對長途旅行之疲勞及時差調整問題由選手配戴智慧型攜帶裝置搭配血液生理生化指標及腦波檢測由科學化方式密集監控長途飛行所造成的疲勞適時搭配運動恢復策略導入正面檢壓訓練協助選手因於密集"},{"start":2564.595,"end":2579.869,"text":"賽事期間產生之壓力造成焦慮進而形成睡眠問題協助選手身心調整最後簡單解語運科中心府成立初期對於選手協助選手提升自身能力在"},{"start":2581.59,"end":2592.633,"text":"國際賽上獲得優異成績則無旁貸本部體育署將持續協同運科中心協助各運動種類選手參加國際賽事以科技導入運科與醫療合作提供我國選手更專業與全方位的資源服務進而在國際賽事獲得優異成績讓世界認識台灣"},{"start":2605.216,"end":2614.74,"text":"以上報告,敬請各位委員持續給予本部支持與指教。詳細內容請參閱書面報告,並祝各位委員健康如意。謝謝。好,謝謝林次長的口頭報告。那我們現場有介紹我們兩位到場的委員,有洪孟楷委員,葉元芝委員,"},{"start":2635.987,"end":2644.273,"text":"現場委員已達三位我們來確定議事錄請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":2645.865,"end":2660.272,"text":"好 那沒有 那我們意思錄確定那我們現在 這一次的詢答我們每位出席委員質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘 列席委員質詢時間4分鐘 那發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分"},{"start":2666.295,"end":2687.201,"text":"委員若有臨時提案．於上午10時30分前提出．並於本會委員范委員質詢結束後．其進行處理．處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場．原例不予處理首先請發言登記地位紅夢楷委員進行質詢"},{"start":2698.325,"end":2709.861,"text":"主席,我們請次長還有我們政署長跟我們國科中心的黃執行長。好,我們請林次長、政署長、黃執行長。還有龔執行長。好,龔執行長。"},{"start":2714.785,"end":2730.54,"text":"市長 我先請教一下很多媒體講是說今天看到我們國訓中心執行長是新任執行長國訓中心新任執行長那很多媒體也講是說距離現在2024年巴黎奧運不到半年時間"},{"start":2731.661,"end":2746.729,"text":"那之前的這個李執行長他確實他在任內裡面我們的代表隊啊等等都有蠻多優異的成績不管是說我們在2021年的東京奧運奪牌數都創下新高那想請教這樣子陣前換將有人用陣前換將這四個字來形容"},{"start":2749.551,"end":2772.665,"text":"市長想要走還是說我們請他走還是怎麼樣?市長因為達成這個階段性的任務啦所以他也自動請提出這個辭職他自動請辭?對是的然後我們什麼時候提出他自動請辭?應該是在去年年底的時候去年年底?對是的那沒有想到今年2024年巴黎奧運那麼重要是"},{"start":2773.764,"end":2773.864,"text":"兩位執行長"},{"start":2804.031,"end":2808.922,"text":"國訓中心 國科中心我們的這個位階是有誰高誰低還是平行"},{"start":2810.322,"end":2836.025,"text":"報告委員是平行的是平行嘛 對不對那我先請教國科中心現在成立多久時間了我們在去年的9月16號正式掛牌之後今年的1月1號正式開始營運正式開始營運那國人一定很關心嘛就國科中心尤其是去年是總統去接牌想要知道是說到底我們國科中心做什麼事情有什麼樣的內容以及什麼樣的計畫您同意嗎"},{"start":2836.545,"end":2849.838,"text":"是的是不是也應該要讓國人更清楚明白了解是的那請教你們官網在哪裡我們官網目前正在建構當中還沒有成立因為我們的確很國人您知道國人如果說打國科中心會出現什麼嗎"},{"start":2852.32,"end":2880.214,"text":"就是國訓中心的運科處國訓中心的運科處是的代表是講是說明明去年蔡英文總統大動作的去揭牌風光大家也認為是說既然你剛剛講了國訓中心國科中心是平行的單位但是到今天3月11號了也已經掛牌上路營運了三個月的時間了結果我們現在上網國人想要知道說到底國科中心做什麼事情"},{"start":2880.774,"end":2893.094,"text":"打出來還是國訓中心的運動科學處那代表什麼代表說你們拿了預算你們拿了原額可是最基本的讓國人知道說你們現在在做什麼事情可能都沒有辦法"},{"start":2894.13,"end":2911.996,"text":"什麼時候可以改進我們目前為止的看法進度應該在這個月底就可以上線這個月底可以上線是的所以換言之你也知道嘛我知道我說實在話這個東西其實要立法委員在質詢殿堂這邊來講一個說你這個單位連官網都還沒有建制我覺得其實也蠻"},{"start":2913.516,"end":2914.336,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2939.066,"end":2956.705,"text":"現在我們大家也認為是說你既然成立了新的國科中心代表說國家很重視這件事情那為什麼沒有辦法編滿額呢?是預算不夠?也不是預算不夠?是我們國內沒有人才?也不是沒有人才?是國科中心不重要?"},{"start":2958.68,"end":2975.494,"text":"很重要嘛明明有100位的員額去年只編33位的經費今年只編53位的經費我強調經費喔代表是說你現在還沒有聘人你只有53位的經費可以去聘人但是有沒有可能實際錄取進來的人"},{"start":2977.896,"end":3004.875,"text":"超過53位你現在到底有多少人在國科中心目前有33位全職的同仁33位是的但是你的預算你的原額是100位是那你今年只編53位的預算是那中間的落差在哪裡這個事實上是一個建構的過程現階段我們的因為我們的大樓還沒有形成我們的實驗室都還不存在但是我們成立之後急需要針對今年巴黎奧運做充分的準備是"},{"start":3007.697,"end":3033.697,"text":"謝謝執行長又講到本席就講是說只剩半年時間就要巴黎奧運我們也認為說國科中心國訓中心都很重要能夠來支持我們的運動員尤其是我們希望是大家都當我們運動員最強後盾中華隊最強後盾那你現在連緣額人數都沒有編滿你跟我講說你要怎麼變最強後盾我們透過合作研究跟合併研究員的方式那如果說合作研究合併研究的話那這樣子就當初就不用100人的緣額這是短期的時間因為我們沒有"},{"start":3034.918,"end":3035.898,"text":"一個新的機構的行程需要一點時間就慢慢拼了"},{"start":3065.353,"end":3076.633,"text":"不是 不用再講時間了如果說去年8月那麼風風光光可以揭牌那這樣子你這樣時間我想這個效率大家沒有辦法接受是不是"},{"start":3078.197,"end":3102.123,"text":"什麼時候預計今年53人會全部聘完嗎我們希望可以聘到滿但是還是看我們的需求跟人才的提供是嗎還是強調如果說你真的需求沒那麼重要的話你乾脆自己就提出申請就說你不用那麼多元額把其他元額讓給其他部會好不好我們的確是有這樣子的需求那有這樣的需求然後不編但是因為真的要慢慢的看來市長"},{"start":3105.133,"end":3119.903,"text":"市長,本席剛剛這樣質詢你可以聽得出重點嗎?是,跟委員報告一下因為運科中心去年下半年才正式成立的而且它是新的單位所以確實是要是就是因為新的單位所以國人很期待我想教育委員會"},{"start":3120.623,"end":3150.623,"text":"議員．"},{"start":3150.623,"end":3166.675,"text":"的成績有沒有把握比東京奧運還要好?我們會朝這個目標來做努力哪一個項目可以增加得牌數?市長不要只是隨口答答我也會講啊我們會往這個目標來努力啊我現在問得比較詳細哪一個項目"},{"start":3169.117,"end":3174.06,"text":"目前我們全級的選手在我們目前已經取得到奧運資格的有8個運動種類有25位選手目前全級的選手表現是相當不錯的應該是有機會會比東京奧運來得更好"},{"start":3186.067,"end":3187.428,"text":"我們認為哪一個項目我們在這一次的奪牌機會"},{"start":3202.816,"end":3218.232,"text":"可以有奪金奪銀奪銅哪個項目是我們有把握的?跟委員報告一下因為現在目前都在積極備戰當中我們也密切的關注給選手跟教練加油但是也不適合給選手教練給他們太大的壓力"},{"start":3219.032,"end":3237.398,"text":"我們現在沒有要給選手跟教練壓力我們要選手跟教練助力所以這也是為什麼本席剛剛花那麼多時間講國訓中心講國科中心就是認為是說他們會是中華隊最強後盾我們應該要support但是你現在告訴我說人也還沒有編滿然後你也沒有辦法講是說到底哪一個項目好"},{"start":3238.618,"end":3240.139,"text":"來最後那個署長一分鐘好不好上禮拜"},{"start":3262.27,"end":3285.098,"text":"足球協會在3月21日我們明明是打世界盃資格賽但是卻是用禮拜四禮拜四的時間而且是下午4點鐘明明在我們自己台灣主場結果到最後我們居然是挑一個觀眾席不到千人的場地然後讓我們的世界盃我們的藍燭代表隊去跟別國打"},{"start":3286.397,"end":3311.317,"text":"這到底中間出了什麼環節而且一開始我們看到說竹鞋還甩鍋給臺北市體育署臺北市體育處這邊又出來這邊打臉又講說沒有啊明明就是我們排定的這個場地租界他們根本沒有來申請報告委員有沒有去了解啊有這個其實從頭到尾其實我也在幫忙在做協調啦那他們去年7月的時候其實竹鞋他們剛好競賽組換人所以他們的確行政上疏失所以是竹鞋競賽組換人人員的疏失"},{"start":3314.96,"end":3339.25,"text":"為什麼竹協會一開始道歉聲明還講是說這個好像臺北市體育處這邊有瑕疵還是說暗示臺北市體育處不借場地報告委員臺北市體育局在這部分的確在在3月這個時間點他是有空檔但是呢他的草皮養護能力的確量能還不太夠所以我們也可以體諒臺北市體育局為什麼不願意借這個場地其實我覺得在"},{"start":3339.81,"end":3368.877,"text":"是他們有空檔還是原本那個場地就是沒有辦法租借這要講清楚喔應該是說他有空檔但是他的草皮養護來不及有空檔對草地養護不及所以說有沒有符合這個比賽的標準跟資格可能沒有喔是不是有可能沒有所以我說雙邊我都可以理解所以我當時在幫忙做協調的時候我就跟他們說其實就是說我也建議臺北市體育局在草皮養護方面可以再加強但是呢你足協行政的確有疏之這一點一定要再改進"},{"start":3370.638,"end":3385.592,"text":"所以說你剛剛撇開了不是什麼人為因素就是人為確實有疏失也沒有說機關的溝通不良或是有情緒有沒有就你了解沒有這種什麼機關不良有情緒的反應本席就正想請教六月的部分"},{"start":3391.738,"end":3395.359,"text":"是不是請培育署署長我們在書面報告給紅衛員好不好?因為稍微站起來但是本席真的還是要提醒"},{"start":3407.583,"end":3407.903,"text":"對丁老師﹗"},{"start":3434.19,"end":3434.71,"text":"陳佩玉委員"},{"start":3455.127,"end":3471.056,"text":"市長,這題我想我們就快速先來討論關於這個女族的合約的事情那之前部長的回應是說要等到3月25日不過我當天就說這是不合理的那部長有在諮詢台上交辦說要有市長您這邊來協助那我可以問一下目前的進度嗎"},{"start":3472.297,"end":3488.301,"text":"跟委員報告也謝謝委員都關心這個案子那這個案子我們在三個禮拜五也有跟主協秘書長副秘書長直接電話聯繫所以有關這個合約的部分的話今天會以雙掛號今天會以雙掛號那個寄給這個選手而且已經寄出已經寄出此刻不到九點半"},{"start":3495.402,"end":3517.361,"text":"已經祭出?是。好,謝謝次長。那我們後續也會持續在協助球員關心喔。那我想這個事情我覺得確實這個事情的進度這樣看起來是大家目前為止都可以接受的。可是我想問一下次長您覺得這件事情因為其實引起非常多的社會討論跟關注喔。您覺得體育署或者是主協有沒有需要就這件事情做一個進一步的調查報告?"},{"start":3518.66,"end":3519.201,"text":"那有沒有機會在兩個月內?"},{"start":3542.909,"end":3543.71,"text":"中華奧會金船女性持刀制"},{"start":3559.374,"end":3572.037,"text":"但是體育署立刻澄清不是署內相關員工那我想這個事情應該次長您應該也知道進度我們就不多說但是我們想要問一下我知道中華奧會跟體育署跟教育部的關係是夥伴關係其實沒有上對下監督關係可是在這個單項協會或者是奧會當中這種不對等權力關係壓迫底下我們難道沒有相關的職業安全衛生法或是勞動部相關的稽查可以協助確認這個中華奧會裡面這些"},{"start":3585.939,"end":3609.999,"text":"工作同仁們的生命安全或者是相關職場的倫理或是可以協助他們在職場上可以好好的就職這件事情次長您自己的看法是什麼好謝謝我想這個部分是在我們體育大樓裡面發生了一個個別的這樣子的一個事件那我想針對這一個事件第一時間體育署的部分我們政署長也馬上請我們體育署人事也提供相關的一個規定"},{"start":3610.86,"end":3634.415,"text":"以及相關的一些的資源或者是需要的相關的一些的部分提供給中華會來做一個參考那針對這個也針對不管是當事人或者是中華會的選手的部分也能夠注意他們的一個心理上面的一個這個輔導和心理上面的一個調適那有事實的話也提出一些申訴的這樣子的一個管道"},{"start":3634.955,"end":3656.061,"text":"次長沒關係這個部分後續因為我們可以看一下我後來就去查了相關網站因為你剛剛說署長也給予了相關的支持我們看一下主席的網站還有填寫的網站可是到了中華奧會就看不到相關的資訊了我們有沒有機會就是您剛剛說的更積極的去處理這件事情相關的態度跟作為那我們這邊有幾個訴求是不是可以請次長跟署長一併討論第一個"},{"start":3657.501,"end":3682.017,"text":"體育署了解中華奧會有沒有機會建立相關的性騷擾職場申訴的制度並且促請公告我剛剛說了我知道他們是夥伴關係可是我相信大家對這件事情是有期待的那因為署長你也在奧會擔任過相關的工作不知道這個部分有沒有機會促成第二個由教育部來協同勞動部參與清查最近這兩年體育署跟各個單項協會有沒有相關這種人事職場上霸凌的吃案或者是隱匿霸凌申訴卻沒有積極處理"},{"start":3683.698,"end":3695.382,"text":"因為其實連教育部我們在修完性平三法或是教育部在學校霸凌防制準則其實大家都知道要有所作為但是在相關的體育署或者是教育部主管機關這個單項協會裡面或者是夥伴關係的奧會裡面卻沒有相關的機制我們覺得這個相當的不合理"},{"start":3701.124,"end":3717.541,"text":"第三個可不可以輔導各個協會跟建議奧會建立職場遭受不法侵害通報他跟相關的申訴流程並且正式公告讓所有相關的從業人員他們有一個佈局的申訴管道避免各式各樣這種體育界大家知道長期以來不合理的職場現況"},{"start":3720.447,"end":3739.378,"text":"謝謝陳委員,我想針對陳委員的建議,當然對中華會是不是有建議這個相關的省市制度公告,我想這個我們會協調澳會來瞭解澳會現在的做法,同時也請澳會朝這個方面來做一個處理。那至於這個是不是各單元協會有沒有次案或領域辦理,這個部分我們來瞭解一下。"},{"start":3740.919,"end":3767.961,"text":"另外的話針對澳會各協會來建立申訴的流程跟通報的部分這個部分我想這蠻好我們來配合辦理事實上目前如果是各單項協會或中華澳會的員工的部分的話他有申訴到我們體育署我們體育署在第一時間因為在同一棟大樓裡面所以大概都會請我們署裡面的包含政控單位都會進行了解跟協助我們辦辦"},{"start":3768.801,"end":3782.035,"text":"次長說都按照我們的要求來進行可是我覺得第二項可能會有困難所以之後我們會再跟次長再次或是跟署長您再次確定去清查相關過往的一個案件我覺得這個是很龐大的工程那如果次長您剛剛的允諾是說會積極展開那我們辦公室也會積極的了解跟協助各個單項協會再來就是這兩天有這個相關的爭議"},{"start":3788.922,"end":3809.445,"text":"一直都有相關的爭議可是這兩天因為有公共政策網路參與平台的聯署那目前到我們剛剛質詢前看到已經兩千一百多位這個聯署關於這個學生聯賽轉學競賽爭議我想這個次長跟署長一定都很清楚我就不相關說明可是我們來看一下相關裡面的案例例如說我們都先不要管那個競賽制度這件事情到底合不合理"},{"start":3809.745,"end":3823.774,"text":"可是我們看到大家提到裡面的狀況就是加收費用、過度訓練、言語霸凌、不當管教這些長期以來存在體育訓練現場的困境有沒有機會我們請教育部這邊積極介入讓它得到改善的機會"},{"start":3825.181,"end":3851.097,"text":"是 謝謝跟委員報告事實上針對這個學生運動員那麼在校園他具有學生身份涉及到霸凌或者不當管教的相關問題那這個部分都有相關的法規那麼再做那個處理也是依循這個相關法規規定的來辦理至於剛剛委員提到的有關那個轉學的那個競賽的部分這個問題的部分目前體育署也都在積極的處理"},{"start":3852.939,"end":3875.236,"text":"因為關於競賽這個制度我覺得還要花很多時間討論甚至他開場公庭會都不為過可是我們有沒有機會要求不管這個聯署有沒有之後達標或者是相關制度的討論可不可以因為目前我們收到消息就是監察院要積極介入這個調查可是相關目前已經在網路上自己公開分享這些家長的案例這些學生的案例體育署跟教育部可不可以主動的去"},{"start":3876.016,"end":3903.518,"text":"進行調查保護當事人匿名的情況下讓大家對體育班制度或是對政府的監理功能不要再持續感到失望這個部分可不可以請次長告訴我們有沒有可能是的謝謝如果是這個涉及到這個霸凌或者是不當管教的部分到體育署來做一些申訴那這個部分本來就有那個校園性侵害性霸凌性騷擾防治的這個準則那這個部分都會依照這個部分該揭露或者是該不能"},{"start":3904.138,"end":3928.103,"text":"我們都知道這個準則,次長我們都知道啦可是例如說像我們前陣子幫忙召開那個和球案就是明明就有很多事情在校內已經一直發生學員球員也都有發生可是這個相關的體育上對下的關係長期存在校園之間那如果孩子們都知道家長也都知道其實大家都知道可是就不敢講啊所以我這邊就是要求次長可不可以主動介入調查協助保護這些球員跟家長"},{"start":3930.364,"end":3941.987,"text":"如果是屬於在網路上面揭露的部分我們掌握到第一時間的訊息我們也會跟主管機關因為有關學校的部分可能基本上還是在主管機關我們會請這個主管機關在第一時間進行這個相關調查我們也會持續觀測後續的一個發展的狀況"},{"start":3947.909,"end":3971.536,"text":"這個市長我還是要說雖然我時間到但是我覺得這樣聽起來還是對於選手的保障跟對家長來說真的有點太過消極我們當然都知道這些案例他都已經自己趕寫在網路上代表我覺得大家積怨已久尤其是孩子們在他們青春期的發展然後身為青少球員運動員這些事情上但是卻一直被這些大人的事件綁住我真的覺得對孩子們很不公平所以我剛剛都說我們都不要討論到"},{"start":3972.816,"end":3974.197,"text":"我們會積極來介入來處理好那這個部分你說更積極介入我們有沒有機會開啟相關的調查"},{"start":3995.248,"end":3995.828,"text":"我這邊想要請運科中心的執行長這一段"},{"start":4015.509,"end":4017.59,"text":"為什麼我們要談基層運動這件事情我們來看一下"},{"start":4044.244,"end":4060.563,"text":"這是國體法修完之後這個三小時我們就先不要討論這個三小時到底合不合理或是一刀切的問題但是我們來看一下相關的過渡訓練我們來看一下107年說只有一所109年說只有三所到了110年只有兩所說實話執行長您覺得就您從基層上來您覺得這個數字合理嗎?"},{"start":4063.767,"end":4084.809,"text":"對,但是你覺得這個數字合理嗎?還好,你的意思是說不太合理嘛,大家都知道一定有一些事情沒有爆發出來嘛但是我們回過來看可不可以要求運科中心,我時間有限了運科中心可不可以積極的參與相關訓練準則訂定跟考核,尤其是考核到底是怎麼考核出來的我相信執行長你一定心裡有數"},{"start":4086.05,"end":4103.201,"text":"可不可以由運科中心更加積極主導這件事情並且把相關耳哨訓練標準納入未來運科中心的研究方向因為大家都知道基層運動員其實才是國家運動發展的未來對嗎完全認同委員的講法跟委員報告現階段我們正在積極研擬我們青少年運動發展的一個建議指標我們會結合運動醫學會"},{"start":4113.49,"end":4120.939,"text":"我認為大家聽到目前為止應該會覺得那關於考核的部分呢?考核的部分有沒有機會由運科跟體育署更加積極的合作?這個我們再來討論啦"},{"start":4124.202,"end":4152.416,"text":"考核會看到那個數字出來到底合不合理最後一個有沒有機會由體育署這邊設置必要檢舉窗口一旦體育班過度訓練查查機制不要讓政府保護而上這個美意再度淪為空談這個部分可不可以請署長或次長回應一下由體育署主動積極建立檢舉窗口又回到我剛剛講的霸凌的問題或者是現場的問題但是關於這個過度訓練問題可不可以請署長或次長告訴我們有沒有機會這個檢舉的窗口一直都在不過我想大概是需要宣導啦這部分我們在校園的宣導我們再來強化"},{"start":4153.116,"end":4167.027,"text":"關於這個討論資訊,是否可以再給所有教育文化委員會．包括我們辦公室一份．讓大家更知道．如果有這個過度訓練的問題．到底我們下一步可以怎麼做,好嗎?好,謝謝署長．謝謝次長．謝謝主席好,謝謝陳培宇委員．那我們下一位請萬美玲委員好,謝謝召委．我們有請林特角次長．還有我們鄭世忠署長好,我們請林次長、鄭署長"},{"start":4185.688,"end":4202.644,"text":"我看到你們的報告裡面在第二頁有寫到運科中心府成立一系設備人員編制組織架構運作模式等等尚在建構階段尤其是在運科大樓含戶外多功能檢測場"},{"start":4204.065,"end":4223.1,"text":"上位落成之前工作目標以組建營運團隊及營運準備工作為首要推動項目這個報告上面是這樣寫沒有錯嗎?對嗎?是的那也就是說現在我們整個運科大樓還沒有建設完成之前我們都在做一些準備那這個運科大樓預計什麼時候會落成?"},{"start":4225.282,"end":4226.203,"text":"市長哪一年會完成"},{"start":4249.915,"end":4264.884,"text":"118年好那也就是說在這個118年之餘現在而言都叫做落成前那也就是說未來這5年當中我們整個運科這個中心啊都在做一些什麼營運團隊準備工作這些事情是這樣嗎"},{"start":4265.384,"end":4270.728,"text":"市長,剛才我聽到您在答詢的時候有提到說我們現在預計大概緣額是在100人目前也招了大概53人那不足緣額繼續在招聘當中其實我也很納悶第一個,您現在都只知道說"},{"start":4292.605,"end":4292.945,"text":"所以我想第一個在去年9月"},{"start":4308.885,"end":4309.085,"text":"那當然另外喔﹖"},{"start":4333.274,"end":4354.913,"text":"那未來我們這個運客中心要能夠成立恐怕中間看起來有一些變數本席知道你現在這塊運客中心這塊土地現在是國防部在使用對不對目前是國防部的土地不過我們都已經跟國防部都已經協調了所以對運客中心新建大樓所需要的3公頃土地他會先提供使用"},{"start":4355.433,"end":4372.918,"text":"市長現在的那個國防部還在使用中嘛那他必須要他的另外一塊土地好了以後他才能把它遷走嘛你有沒有想過就是說這中間啊也有可能我們現在都知道其實現在公共工程都是一直在延宕當中一旦國防部他要遷去的那個地方的工程有延宕我們這邊也就是會跟著延宕"},{"start":4374.358,"end":4378.443,"text":"所以看起來本席真的非常擔憂當然也希望教育部體育署這個地方能夠在我們運科中心的運科大樓的工程上面要加把勁要盯好來要不然往後一直演不要熱熱鬧鬧的去揭牌去說要啟用然後結果"},{"start":4393.84,"end":4394,"text":"跟委員報告一下"},{"start":4414.621,"end":4432.433,"text":"國際中心的運動科學支援處主要就是跟教練選手在實際在運用的部分跟選手教練比較貼身比較密切的包含比如說運動防護運動醫療或者是體制能訓練這個部分實際的這個部分的支援跟協助是國際中心來做處理"},{"start":4433.274,"end":4435.054,"text":"所以您的意思是說在我們還沒有運動科學中心之前國訓中心您剛剛說的這些業務都沒有人辦喔?"},{"start":4454.522,"end":4481.502,"text":"我希望運科中心真的要有它的功能在運科中心我們也配合今年的東京奧運開始辦理所以運科中心現有的人員他已經也跟運科中心都已經建立窗口在進行相關的這個支援跟協助市長我再請教您一下那剛才我們有提到國訓中心是跟這個選手最有直接關係的對嗎是的就是選手的任何的事項其實國訓中心大概都要給予很多的幫忙跟支援"},{"start":4482.162,"end":4484.844,"text":"關於國訓中心我們的菜單這次市長有看過嗎?市長有看過嗎?市長有看過而且曾經有幾次場合我也去那邊實際去瞭解"},{"start":4499.194,"end":4518.5,"text":"現在我們教育部已經下令全國所有的學校都禁用辣椒粉胡椒粉恐怕再來沙茶醬那我們現在國訓中心在3月本期看到3月14我們的餐點還有椒麻雞3月15我們的餐點還有泡菜豬3月18我們還給他們吃了咖哩豬"},{"start":4521.921,"end":4541.754,"text":"我們要知道現在為什麼教育部要全面禁學校就是因為現在有這些疑慮辣椒粉胡椒粉那我們看到衛福部也還沒有辦法完全給大家一個很透明的資訊什麼產品有中標什麼產品沒有中標教育部為了省慎所以全面禁止我們學校的宜安午餐使用辣椒粉胡椒粉咖哩粉等等將來恐怕還有沙茶"},{"start":4544.896,"end":4555.979,"text":"我們國訓中心看起來沒有作為啊是怎麼樣是我們國訓中心這一些我們選手也好我們的人員也好健康不重要嗎我們要知道現在這個蘇丹紅啊一旦我們吃進人體肚子裡面去之後恐怕有致癌的風險對於我們不管是這個膀胱啦脾臟啦肝腎啊恐怕都有很大的傷害"},{"start":4567.082,"end":4567.622,"text":"市長,連胡椒粉都是你們自己做嗎?"},{"start":4596.69,"end":4614.006,"text":"至於這個胡椒粉也是自己做的嗎?納椒粉也是自己做的嗎?市長本席就請教您本席請教您您剛剛說辣椒粉你們用自製新鮮的辣椒嗎?我們用自製辣椒對那我請教一下我們有沒有用到胡椒粉有沒有用到咖哩?"},{"start":4615.007,"end":4629.041,"text":"看起來有嘛,3月18你吃了咖哩豬嘛我們也有清茶含辣椒的一些食材啦,這些剛剛提到的咖哩塊或者是這個辣椒粉你用的咖哩塊我們也清茶了,都不是屬於受害廠商生產的產品"},{"start":4629.949,"end":4643.265,"text":"您可以做百分之百的保證。衛福部都沒有辦法講的這麼清楚了。您教育部的次長可以這麼做這樣的保證是嗎?所以次長今天教育部次長用聽的不要搶話。這種搶話的答詢是非常不好不尊重的。"},{"start":4648.951,"end":4651.252,"text":"為什麼我們國訓中心你只針對辣椒覺得是自製其他胡椒咖哩你都不打算來禁為什麼"},{"start":4668.84,"end":4670.142,"text":"市長還有我們署長我希望我們的選手他們的身體健康非常非常的重要"},{"start":4686.38,"end":4714.273,"text":"那麼在這個蘇丹紅事件爆發之後我想教育部當然也慢了一點點但是終究還是比我們體育署對於我們這個國訓中心的這個部分要來得更快一些小朋友的健康很重要我們的選手健康很重要本期希望能不能夠次長我們從今天開始起我們也全面在這個國訓中心選手的這個餐點當中辣椒粉這個胡椒粉跟咖哩這個部分我們也可以來做一個期限內的禁用"},{"start":4714.653,"end":4716.814,"text":"我希望以後我們針對這些食安風暴反應要再快一點不能夠說3月8日之後"},{"start":4731.098,"end":4731.378,"text":"最後一點,我想"},{"start":4752.39,"end":4758.657,"text":"對於我們現在運科中心在去年我們也編了預算但是我們看到去年度的預算數因為9月開始嘛4032萬但是執行率真的非常的差只有40%只有40%那到今年的預算1億多我在想去年執行這麼差原因是什麼那麼今年可以有效做執行嗎能不能簡單報告一下"},{"start":4775.834,"end":4791.547,"text":"委員報告一下,因為去年是8月1日開始政治營運,接9月16號,所以時間是,因為包含新設單位,所以初期的時候就只有執行長、副執行長等相關的主要的中央幹部,所以還要包含人員的這個招募等等。"},{"start":4791.647,"end":4821.391,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":4822.071,"end":4828.175,"text":"好,謝謝萬委員的支持,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝萬美玲委員的質詢。再來我們請葉淵芝委員。我請那個次長。好,請林次長。"},{"start":4849.729,"end":4871.558,"text":"市長,以前我們在新北市也有共事過。我想跟市長請教一下,其實運科中心的成立大家都非常期待,因為體育賽事是大家都非常關心,而且每一次只要在國際上我們選手有好的表現,大家都非常開心。特別是如果說選手他又是來自於我們自己的"},{"start":4872.278,"end":4893.951,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":4894.031,"end":4906.551,"text":"他就是說好像在出國的時候實際上你們所列出來這些資源系統不見得每一個都讓他們非常的滿意有時候還是有缺乏的狀態那我說運動科學中心成立之後應該這種狀況應該會比較少吧"},{"start":4910.736,"end":4927.044,"text":"運科中心主要是在做研發研究的相關規劃跟選手教練比如說他在國內的訓練以及到國外的比賽直接相關的所謂運科的相關人員包含運動防護等這些人員的部分主要是由國性中心在做"},{"start":4928.044,"end":4928.865,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":4950.527,"end":4965.283,"text":"就是說這兩個單位要配合的比較好嘛但我現在的問題是這樣啦就是說如果說我們運動科學中心因為他做了很多系統他是建制的工作嘛資料的收集嘛對不對然後但現在目前出入來說他服務的對象是出國比賽的選手"},{"start":4969.111,"end":4971.253,"text":"我先說如果說我們運科中心運作一段時間因為現在才剛起步而已嘛"},{"start":4987.205,"end":4999.495,"text":"那如果運作一段時間之後發現他確實對於我們第一線選手幫助很大其實我非常建議說他可以延續到基層的運動員舉例來講像以我們板橋來講我們板橋海山高中舉重隊不錯曾經培養出一個奧運的國手市長你知道是誰嗎"},{"start":5006.34,"end":5006.42,"text":"我是說﹖"},{"start":5030.776,"end":5051.224,"text":"其實我們板橋海山高中的舉重隊不錯啦對是曾經有一位奧運國手有得牌的你知道是哪一位嗎不曉得叫陳文慧啊是你知道這位嗎知道知道陳文慧知道那代表說海山高中他的舉重有一定的數值跟水準嘛是才有可能培養出一個奧運國手嘛是"},{"start":5052.705,"end":5078.293,"text":"那今天也許就是在運科中心假設他有資源介入到我們的海山高中的話他可能不是只有一個成文會啊因為有一些選手他也許沒有到可以出國比賽那也許他在訓練過程當中遇到一些心理的問題嘛這也是你們要解決的嘛營養的問題是你們要解決的嘛不要恢復是你們要解決的嘛 對不對那所以假設今天運科中心可以直接介入到高中"},{"start":5079.153,"end":5104.333,"text":"你找一些有潛力的去做協助說不定就會有兩個三個成文會在同一個學校那這樣你同意嗎?是的那另外因為你也服務過新北市嘛你知道新北市包括像三峽明德高中的射箭那也是我們國手的培運搖籃體操明治國中的體操還有我們板橋華僑高中的排球都是非常棒的"},{"start":5105.074,"end":5126.69,"text":"那如果運科中心可以去協助的話你認為對於這些選手他未來的運動發展有沒有幫助?對於學校基層的訓練的支持我們體育所的學校組他就已經3年前就已經開始導入我現在就希望運科中心研究能量可以協助"},{"start":5127.771,"end":5145.606,"text":"如果運科中心沒有幫助我們不用成立運科中心的嘛現在就是說你現在另外弄了這個中心他如果說可以直接介入其實沒有違反到你們的發展目標因為你的目標就是希望能夠提讓這些國手在國外有好的表現那選材培育其實也是很相關嘛對吧"},{"start":5146.286,"end":5168.262,"text":"是的跟委員報告在這個在這個前年年底那個運科條例通過的時候當時對於運科的任務其中就有一條他不是屬於國家級他是屬於選手的培訓有嗎所以他包含了那我國家代表隊也包含了基層訓練基層訓練那至少那我想請教一下如果就以我剛剛講的為例啦是比如說海山高中舉重你們會怎麼做"},{"start":5171.194,"end":5190.642,"text":"因為你說那個條例就有規定,那你會怎麼做?大概兩個啦,第一個的部分剛剛我也提到就是我們體育署的學校體育組他就有在針對基層訓練導入運科那目前是有國體大的教授在做這件事情當然如果有這個需要的話我們會請體育署跟台體大就海山高中所需要的運科"},{"start":5191.042,"end":5212.658,"text":"現在運科如果說都已經做得好的話那不用成立運科中心啊我現在講的是說運科中心成立之後怎麼協助啦至於運科中心成立之後他會將運科包含他的研發或者是他的一些相關的一些技術的部分也會導入到基層訓練怎麼做嘛怎麼做嘛如果說你沒辦法回答請那個運科中心的執行長回答好不好"},{"start":5213.086,"end":5235.968,"text":"目前的規劃是我們可以結合地方的運科資源隊伍把我們的技術能量透過轉移的方式在地方來執行透過技術轉移是不是?是的那實際上的成效怎麼樣?還沒剛開始而已還沒有開始那你針對我剛講的那幾個學校你可不可以研究一下提一個報告給我當然可以好不好就是華僑高中的排球是好不好然後三峽明德射箭"},{"start":5236.949,"end":5248.757,"text":"還有我們海山高中舉重民智國中的體操直接針對這幾個我們新北市的了解運科中心成立之後怎麼去協助他們好不好是個階段直接針對這幾個那報告什麼時候可以給我"},{"start":5252.605,"end":5256.627,"text":"第二,這是我的建議,我跟一些運動員聊天你們運科中心有在做選材嗎?就是建立資料庫做選材嗎?"},{"start":5277.822,"end":5277.922,"text":"是的。"},{"start":5304.272,"end":5323.499,"text":"其實很多運動員他在小的時候他是全才啦比如說他可能跆拳道很厲害他田徑也很強籃球也很強那這時候如果說我們有運科的介入可以告訴他說你比較適合往哪個方向發展其實對於他選擇運動項目是非常有幫助而且對於他未來在某一個領域啊"},{"start":5324.98,"end":5352.902,"text":"展露頭角也是有幫助的目前我們的技術上面已經知道可以透過因為我的了解就是很多運動員都有被抽血嘛都有被收集相關的一般生化是有必要的可是其實目前這個部分可不可以也提供報告給我好不好就是針對選材的部分我們資料庫的建立然後資料庫怎麼用在選材部分好不好因為今天報告沒有嘛好不好這個部分看看也可以研究一下納入運科的項目"},{"start":5353.502,"end":5353.522,"text":"請鄭署長"},{"start":5378.688,"end":5387.313,"text":"市長,我建議你可能有機會要多上一點媒體的訪問,否則連我們本委員會議員之委員都不認得您的長相,所以這跟我委員的溝通要來多加強了好不好?好,第一個這個署長我們政府總體的體育預算從2016年年度的79.8億一直增長到現在已經超過130億以上,所以小英總統也多次的對外對國人來表達他對"},{"start":5406.144,"end":5425.773,"text":"國民體育對我們台灣體育發展的重視所以這些年來我們的國訓中心不管是整建計畫還是我們今天育科中心成立行政法人相關的運作國人都非常的重視所以總統會重視體育不只是總統的期待這也是我們台灣社會對於我們自己國家的選手的期待以及重視"},{"start":5428.173,"end":5452.779,"text":"現在我們目前就我們的制度單項協會是我們眾多諸多的比賽當中是我們台灣跟國際賽事的這個窗口也就是說如果我們的單項協會出狀況表現不佳他就會影響到選手的權益以及球迷的權益同時也會傷害到政府的形象以及我們的國際聲譽署長你認同嗎"},{"start":5455.311,"end":5473.037,"text":"報告委員完全認同是所以署長今天還是要借用這個時間再次來跟你談因為從我們上週在這個地方質詢到現在我們的足協爭議可以說是連環保一週之內道歉三次我相信署長你也非常的清楚前面委員也有質詢到有關於最近一次這個要"},{"start":5474.938,"end":5476.159,"text":"這個部分源自於在去年7月的時候主席他的競賽組換人所以他"},{"start":5491.173,"end":5511.93,"text":"的行政書是的確有行政書是他忘記去台北市體育局的線上場地借用系統去登錄所以呢8月的時候李市長有親自去拜訪台北市體育局局長請求協助那9月的時候呢竹協的確有到空流會議但是因為他7月並沒有去做登錄所以他9月的空流會議他其實是沒有發言權當然場地就沒有當時體育局局長是有協助他們11月馬來西亞的賽事"},{"start":5517.634,"end":5536.894,"text":"那馬來西亞賽事因為他們的草皮養護這部分的量能實在是當時是不太足夠所以導致很大的批評那這一次主要還是歸咎在足協的行政疏失當然我也希望臺北市體育局在草皮養護的量能上可以再加把勁我可以理解臺北市體育局為什麼沒辦法借那但是這部分足協還是要再加強"},{"start":5537.574,"end":5546.036,"text":"沒錯,所以我們體育署是2月的時候才收到竹協的發函請我們來協助協調我們事先知道有這樣的情況沒錯,單到2月才正式收到發函,沒有錯吧?對是吧所以署長你也說確實竹協是有行政疏失因為忘記了"},{"start":5561.869,"end":5576.662,"text":"不管後面當然是要做補救措施但是起因是因為忘記了署長如果你的科員如果你們署內的同仁負責是承辦這麼重要的世界級的比賽他可能會影響到我們選手的權益"},{"start":5577.796,"end":5598.418,"text":"然後他告訴你說啊抱歉我忘記了我忘記去登記了這不是第一年舉辦這樣的比賽所以確實是行政疏失沒有錯我現在要問的是說連連的發生行政疏失所有的民眾都在講說啊我們政府就是拿主席的沒有辦法署長我請教你"},{"start":5599.673,"end":5608.906,"text":"我們體育署就是拿單項協會沒有辦法嗎有辦法沒辦法不是你說了算也不是我說了算根據我們的國民體育法究竟我們體育署對單項協會法律要求我們要輔導到底賦予我們哪些的職權"},{"start":5616.696,"end":5625.784,"text":"署長能不能說明我現在講的是說我不是要求你必須要用哪一個方式而是我們實際上體育署是有哪些的職權當然我們會要就評估實際上面因為你每一個動作都會有連帶的效應要怎麼樣做才真正能夠解決問題這個我們要做多方評估但是我們不是毫無方法嘛對不對根據我們的國體法我們體育署有什麼樣的職權來協助輔導及督導單項協會呢"},{"start":5643.203,"end":5662.389,"text":"報告委員其實我們在每年的訪評這些的過去一年的表現都會列入我們的參考當然訪評的表現結果好與壞會影響到什麼會影響到它這一年下一年度它的整個年度工作計畫的經費比方說像去年的電競協會就因為跟一些形象的問題"},{"start":5663.109,"end":5664.531,"text":"所以訪評的結果也會來決定我們補助給協會的金額嘛 對不對 我們體育署不是說當我們是塑膠不管怎麼做我們都補一樣的金額 沒有 不是這樣嘛 對不對"},{"start":5678.268,"end":5678.348,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5701.988,"end":5723.916,"text":"議員．"},{"start":5724.136,"end":5736.144,"text":"委員在籃球的部分我們基本上之前已經有要求他們也同意所以這部分已經在進行當中包括足協足球協會他們已經完全認同包括足協以及籃籃我們是不是兩個月內我們體育署來協助召開三方的座談會好不好那未來我具體建議在我們的訪評指標之內我希望我們體育署可以要求單項協會"},{"start":5749.412,"end":5755.014,"text":"要例行性的每年一次例行性的來跟選手如果有公會就與公會如果是沒有公會與選手來進行座談溝通這能夠具體納入我們指標否則我們不需要協會就是協助我們體育署來治理署長你能夠這樣開幾次三方座談對不對我們這麼多的項目是不是可以具體的納入我們針對單項協會的訪評指標"},{"start":5771.22,"end":5771.66,"text":"時間暫停,那我請運科中心"},{"start":5797.944,"end":5819.333,"text":"市長好我想國人都非常的期待運科中心對我們選手帶來的注意我現在具體想要請問這個我們的霹靂舞因為它是新興運動我知道過去我們台北市北市大也有運科中心過去就有協助霹靂舞的選手進行相關的這些項目我們運科中心跟我們北市大是不是有簽的合作的備忘錄是的那未來我們會怎麼樣來進行合作"},{"start":5823.977,"end":5837.637,"text":"我們會先去跟選手跟教練先訪談確實從他們的需求當中來擬計具體的做法來協助他們因為我們不能亂做我們一定要根據選手跟教練的需求擬定他們需要的方案內容予以協助"},{"start":5838.458,"end":5862.03,"text":"我今天要特別提出跟執行長討論就是說因為我看到我們運科中心對外也有表達有一些新興運動例如霹靂舞這個項目我們過去比較少充足的資料庫數據跟資料所以我們還需要一段時間的準備才知道如何來協助選手所以這些新興項目例如霹靂舞已經納入今年的奧運了所以我希望我們運科中心是不是可以積極一點的來投入新興運動的這個運動"},{"start":5864.632,"end":5868.154,"text":"謝謝吳佩奕委員我們再來請楊瓊英委員質詢時間4分鐘謝謝本席想邀請主席想邀請長賜跟署長"},{"start":5893.058,"end":5894.319,"text":"國際運動訓練中心的球壘館正式揭拍"},{"start":5919.36,"end":5946.382,"text":"我們的總統也特別表示運動中心是許多世界運動的強國為他的教練跟選手結合了科學專業提升競技實力的重要機構所以換句話說這個中心對我們國家的運動是非常的重要他是一個核心那未來將跟國家運動訓練中心共同合作進行了選手的培訓工作是嗎"},{"start":5947.102,"end":5970.47,"text":"是的那要推動運動科學是嗎是運動科學的研究也將特別要請行政院專案支持市長是不是如此是的那也特別要請教育部跟國防部共同請行政院來協調這兩個部共同來完成建制運科大樓"},{"start":5971.05,"end":5999.504,"text":"是的那現在進度如何跟委員包括運科大樓的一個新建那教育部這邊也在去年年底提報的這個先導計劃了那在今年應該是2月底之前我們也把114年的開始申請的工建計劃也已經報到行政院你們預計什麼時候會完成已經計劃出來所以大家很期待那目前正有行政院國會啊正在審議當中那你的預計計劃呢"},{"start":6001.706,"end":6028.086,"text":"如果順利的話總經費是需求23.5億那期程是從114到118年118年是你們的計畫內容嗎?是的那本期要請教也就是說因為最近的公建的部分有的落後很多甚至有標不出去所以我們很期待在我們的計畫時程是118年我們希望如期如值的去完成"},{"start":6028.686,"end":6038.757,"text":"所以在弓箭的這個部分也請一定要想死去注意因為大家期待非常的高那接下來本校要請教的是既然是118年才能夠去啟用那這個過程當中你們要怎麼樣去因應呢?"},{"start":6043.703,"end":6044.283,"text":"請說明先見阿先見阿"},{"start":6063.848,"end":6087.449,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6087.789,"end":6110.749,"text":"所以現在我們這一段過程還是由國防部這個土地先讓我們使用但是目前我們那一塊要興建大樓那塊土地目前是空地所以並不會涉及到那個拆遷的相關問題那我想這個部分我們會在現有的空地的3公頃的這個土地上面那經過國防部已經許可我們先做這個使用"},{"start":6111.209,"end":6113.81,"text":"許可了沒?許可了沒?我拿到了沒?我們有正式雙方開過是有一個這個方向但是還沒正式最後答案我也有請我們運科中心可能近期我們再發一個給那個"},{"start":6128.676,"end":6148.795,"text":"本席認為這個非常重要因為到118年要啟用我有一點緊張但是我相信您有這個能力去完成所以我們在每一個環節一定要警惕一定要警惕好不好我們希望在118年能夠如期如質的完成啟訓"},{"start":6151.377,"end":6179.363,"text":"在這個過程當中就由國防部這一塊土地你們繼續來做訓練的運用是不是答案如此目前的訓練跟檢測的部分目前都是就用國訓中心的球壘館的這個場地包含了實驗室的規劃也都會再進行逐步的來就是不停滯嗎對 持續訓練這個是我們選手非常重要跟教練非常重要的需要的訊息那最後一個議題就是我們的足球"},{"start":6180.343,"end":6181.564,"text":"我們一起完成了一個奧運會級的、國際級的足球場我們的進度也都正常"},{"start":6197.031,"end":6211.507,"text":"我們每一個環節都很努力臺中市政府所以我們希望在足球的這一個類別裡頭當然很多的委員都非常的關心在不管是選手不管是這個場地以及教練那特別從根渣起"},{"start":6213.789,"end":6213.989,"text":"我們再來請郭育晴委員質詢。"},{"start":6247.697,"end":6251.98,"text":"主席好,請一下次長。好,有請林次長。是,國委員好。是,次長長安。我想這個行政院其實在2022年就是去年的一個,前年的一個五月已經有核定一個臺灣運動跟科技行動的一個計畫。那當然其實其中我們看到體育署他們也特別針對這樣子的一項計畫。"},{"start":6275.075,"end":6288.934,"text":"有特別有說到希望能夠做跨部會的一個整合那這個整合其實目前為止其實在這一次的整個業務報告當中我覺得是比較沒有被明顯的拉出來講那我不曉得是說這個部分"},{"start":6291.097,"end":6315.252,"text":"您知不知道就是在國科會其實在2018年11月的時候其實已經有推動一個精準運動科學研究專案的一個計畫那麼他們針對的一個三大的研究方向包含運科的訓練包含體能的一個恢復還有傷害的一個防治另外還有就是戰術技術的一個分析那針對這三個方向其實在照理來講應該國科會"},{"start":6316.673,"end":6335.733,"text":"他們已經有這樣子的一個計畫呈現他們也成功的在2020年的這個冬奧的時候其實也實踐了這樣子的一個計畫那我不曉得這個部分就是在我們的整個體育署的部分是不是有跨部會能夠在這個部分來做一個銜接很好的一個嫁接那這個部分有做到嗎"},{"start":6339.156,"end":6345.92,"text":"運動成科系行動計劃是由行政院科技會報、整合相關部會、包含教育部、經濟部、國科會等相關單位各分別辦理。其中教育部主要負責人才培育、"},{"start":6354.445,"end":6354.465,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":6374.67,"end":6397.78,"text":"透過這個計畫的部分在教育部有關的部分的話一方面是強化這個基礎的結構做人才培育同時呢也會這個針對運科能量的一個擴大這個部分我們會跟國化會來做一個合作另外在產業生態的部分的話建立的產業生態系這個部分我們會跟經濟部同時呢在研發的部分也會跟國化會那個國科會一起來協助跟幫忙"},{"start":6398.26,"end":6398.74,"text":"市長您也提到人才培育的一個問題"},{"start":6415.492,"end":6433.25,"text":"我相信其實光是講到培養運動科技人才是怎麼樣能夠跟我們現在其實台灣大家都知道其實科技技術其實是非常非常頂尖的那我們要怎麼樣跟科技產業來做競爭去把真的好的人才能夠到我們的所謂的這個運動中心來"},{"start":6435.272,"end":6459.791,"text":"跟委員報告一下我想這個運動運科中心因為去年下半年才剛剛成立所以目前包含了組織或者是包含人員的部分都在陸陸續續在徵聘當中但是我們也是把握這樣子的一個時間所以這段時間一方面也跟工研院也跟各大專校院那麼等等的這個還有包含了一些研究機構一起來做一些來做一些的這個合作"},{"start":6461.092,"end":6461.252,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":6482.703,"end":6506.36,"text":"台灣師大還有巴罕的國立體育大學目前都有簽署運科中心跟我們這幾所大學的合作來培養運動科技的相關人才以及進行運動產業科技的相關研發好我們希望能夠盡快而且很多的部分其實應該要快速的到位因為2024年其實我相信大家最聚焦的應該就是在我們的巴黎奧運"},{"start":6508.742,"end":6524.711,"text":"在這個部分我講到其實運動員其實最重要的就是他們的身心狀態要夠健康那當然其實我們看到其實不管是在他們的一般的所謂在進去所謂的國訓中心之前他們在這個訓練的基地的時候其實"},{"start":6525.652,"end":6553.072,"text":"大大小小不同的一些運動傷害其實有可能都已經存在他們的身上了所以其實到進到了國訓中心其實我們看應該是說最重要的就是在我們的專屬的一個防護人員還有我們的培訓的防護人力上的一個需求那一直到昨天晚上其實我們所知道昨天晚上才給我們最新的數據那這個數據其實是沒有update到上面的那我們是要了很久到昨天晚上禮拜天的晚上"},{"start":6553.752,"end":6580.28,"text":"那這個地方其實我請就是三位可以稍微看一下在國訓中心的運動防護員跟物理治療師這個部分的人力的配置我們看到其中一個特別框起來的網球的部分不管是第一級第二級第三級的這個網球的選手然後再來再加上那個運動防護員還有物理治療師整個所有的醫護組他的配置是雷鳴"},{"start":6581.861,"end":6593.415,"text":"這個部分是不是有做什麼樣的一個可以稍微解釋一下這個狀況甚至有些是低於25%那我想這個部分是不是在人力的配置上是非常嚴重不足的"},{"start":6594.233,"end":6615.372,"text":"跟委員報告一下那國訓中心針對運科人員包含了這個運動防護品跟物理治療師那基本上包含了那個黃金計畫跟包含了那個阿奧培訓練那如果黃金計畫的前三級的選手都是屬於我們重點培育的這個選手那這個部分是提供客製化的專屬的這運科的團隊"},{"start":6617.534,"end":6617.754,"text":"提供專題報告．"},{"start":6636.418,"end":6658.003,"text":"目前的部分國際中心除了編制內已經有45個這個運動防護員之外那也有一些計劃性的大概有二三十位的這個計劃性的這個運動防護員的做一個協助幫忙目前我們了解目前的這個配備的配置的部分應該是是是可合宜的那如果大家有在需要再增強或者配合後面的那個奧運在做"},{"start":6659.343,"end":6687.858,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6687.958,"end":6689.538,"text":"是的,好,我們能力的部分的話會依照我們實際上需要的部分該拚我們就拚"},{"start":6715.143,"end":6715.603,"text":"謝謝郭宇晴委員再來請羅廷偉委員好"},{"start":6744.4,"end":6750.678,"text":"主席謝謝有請次長還有運科中心執行長好我們請林次長跟黃執行長"},{"start":6752.837,"end":6777.944,"text":"市長好市長好我想剛剛有許多的立法委員也都非常關心這個議題我就不再糾結太久但我還是要念一下運科中心112年9月16成立到現在就我所知道我覺得是半年當然你說1月1號開始運作那點開運科中心的首頁三個類別運動醫學研究運動科學研究資訊科技開發這三個研究是掛鈴"},{"start":6781.705,"end":6800.427,"text":"業面寫著建制 敬請期待公刊資訊欄除了法規以外全數也掛零計劃決算預算採購作業的一個實施規章都沒有我想這個部分也是敬請期待喔我想剛剛你有提到啦3月底會完成 執行長是嗎是的"},{"start":6802.008,"end":6825.52,"text":"我想目前就我所知道整個單位都寫著敬請期待只有執行長的介紹是最為清楚的這個部分國人應該有必要知道整個運科中心在未來的一個規劃那我想這個部分麻煩你一定要加緊腳步這個部分我還是要稍微跟你提醒一下那再來市長我想請問一下"},{"start":6826.821,"end":6829.004,"text":"你有玩過手機遊戲、電腦遊戲嗎?可以分享一下年輕大家玩什麼嗎?什麼?"},{"start":6840.635,"end":6842.236,"text":"我今天要跟你討論的就是電競的議題"},{"start":6857.509,"end":6873.201,"text":"那我自己呢有承諾過電競的相關不管是選手或是團隊我要做一個電競選手他們最大的一個靠山作為一個電競立委那我想2017年11月7號立法院三讀通過運動產業發展條例的部分條文將電子競技業納入運動產業電子選手比照運動項目相有國家的選拔"},{"start":6881.107,"end":6905.106,"text":"培訓賽事國光獎章等資源也就是電競終於被證明但是7年過去的我們可以看到台灣電競產業的發展卻止步不前陳建仁院長在去年10月13日台灣代表隊在杭州亞運的反國參會對選手說選手不用擔心我們政府做你的後盾113年度體育署預算137.65億加上110年底修法"},{"start":6911.01,"end":6934.578,"text":"我們通過運動產業發展條例第26條之二擴大企業的捐贈誘因我們有30億元整個總額我們有突破將近160億我想整個預算的增加持續優化訓練環境後勤的資源等這些都是當時陳院長所提出的但是今年"},{"start":6935.498,"end":6963.164,"text":"就在今年2月27日卻傳出了電競選手獨自帶著300美元征戰卡普空杯快打旋風6這樣子的一個辛酸故事最後這個選手奪冠了電競協會在第一時間發文道賀卻被當時的網友酸說沒有資助選手出國比賽人家得冠軍才來蹭熱度"},{"start":6964.924,"end":6990.356,"text":"我想要去還原事實真相因為我想電競協會也有一些苦衷但是次長我想先請問你中華民國電子競技協會說自己是教育部體育署與中華奧委會指定電競事務委辦單位現由教育部體育署輔導為教育部體育署全民運動組內具有國際窗口之非亞運動團體是否屬實?"},{"start":6993.477,"end":7011.45,"text":"來跟委員報告一下齁 這個部分確實是事實啦好 是事實齁 那電競協會呢領教育部多少補助 教育部有沒有統計電競協會的部分好 沒關係我來補充 又沒有要考試啦齁 我大概跟你說一下電競協會110年到112年 共拿了1000多萬 一年300多萬而已"},{"start":7019.195,"end":7034.229,"text":"而以先不論補助是多是少現在大家在乎的是我們都以為政府會把電競放在長遠的一個目標來規劃我們來討論探討並且把他們納入我們最重要要發展的一個項目"},{"start":7035.45,"end":7055.364,"text":"因為台灣電競講真的喔在國人的一個印象當中亞洲國家我們電競是算感覺起來是滿有一個規模因為我們的選手帶來了很多的獎項回來我們的起步算很早當時跟我們中國還有韓國是平起平坐"},{"start":7056.63,"end":7081.197,"text":"我想我們沒有任何的準備現在人家已經超越我們了我想我看到我們韓國中國日本各個亞洲國家當時我們的這個電競選手是感覺到讓國人非常非常的羽與龍焉為什麼因為當時很多的世界比賽我們有得獎啊"},{"start":7082.318,"end":7101.024,"text":"我想到底現在問題到底怎麼樣我看到四個困境第一政府機關缺少專業人才第二我們沒有電競的專門機構第三補助的資源分配不均電競的專才一直在流失政府機關缺少專業人才就是沒有人懂電競嘛"},{"start":7102.424,"end":7127.016,"text":"對不起,市長剛剛詢問您有沒有玩過遊戲當然我以為你會說沒有啦但是您的回答跟沒有其實差不多這不怪罪你玩俄羅斯方塊跟現在真的是差距非常的大我想公務人員多少懂一些的話他就可以具體的去了解怎麼解決這個問題但是我看到電競產業就現在就是複製貼上我們把籃球棒球做過的事情成立協會給補助複製貼上得過且過嘛"},{"start":7130.177,"end":7159.02,"text":"再來電競產業不像韓國有一個專門的機構那個專門的機構他們當時有去找比賽來做例如WCG世界電玩大賽台灣以前有叫做台灣電子競技聯盟他們會去找比賽來做但現在不太一樣喔現在是遊戲廠商希望透過電子競技比賽來拉抬他的遊戲他們會願意撥預算去找一個執行單位來主導我想廠商想做的是"},{"start":7159.781,"end":7186.411,"text":"那些廠商就會撥預算廠商如果沒做我們這些執行單位也沒事我想入法了證明了然後呢礙於法規上的一個限制每年國際電競大賽政府沒有補助協會也沒辦法做什麼終究選手還是得靠自己市長不知道我這樣講完你有沒有發現政府在這個產業鏈當中完全沒有一個重要的角色來擔當我想真正能夠補助到這些電競"},{"start":7188.275,"end":7197.786,"text":"選手上面的我覺得真的很少我想資源分配體育署一年的預算160億元現在補助在電競上千分之一不到"},{"start":7199.464,"end":7224.298,"text":"這個部分都是我們現在看到的困境市長我已經講了這麼多我真的很期待國人就現在來說我們自己很期待棒球籃球跆拳道舉重羽毛球我想電競也會是一個選項之一但是我們連基本的日常訓練出國參賽機票都出不了補助不了他們的國手"},{"start":7224.938,"end":7247.184,"text":"我想我們應該好好的考慮是不是能夠思考我們有一個電競賽事的專門機構根據台灣及國際專注的電競項目去補助選手幫助選手日常的訓練提供他們能夠去做出國比賽的經費另外更重要是我們沒有看到一個專業的場地能夠讓他們有這個機會去做培訓"},{"start":7250.325,"end":7270.947,"text":"我們看到人才的流失直接找不到這樣子的一個機會整個電競產業的結構我們應該要先把前端先做好才不會說我們得到了一個電競冠軍的人才結果呢這個人才後面的規劃我們沒辦法想像次長你認為在政府上還能夠給予什麼樣的協助成立專責機構可行嗎"},{"start":7273.779,"end":7302.669,"text":"跟委員報告一下那個電子競技大概包含了從那個去年的亞運還有巴黎奧運的部分也列為這個競賽的一個項目所以我們也輔導我們的這個這個協會在選人手的選拔以及參賽所需要的相關的一些的培訓跟所需的經費的部分這個部分我們大概都會來協助跟幫忙那至於剛剛提到的那個電子競技協會因為去年它有一些的狀況也是在大院的這個要求之下"},{"start":7303.609,"end":7321.463,"text":"對於經費的部分我們是有給予這個佐檢的這個相關的一個經費不過我想針對選手的參賽的部分所需要的相關經費基本上我們會來這個協助跟幫忙那至於剛剛委員提到的因為在雖然那個運動產業發展條例那訂定那這裡面也涉及到相關的運動產業那針對電子競技的部分的話"},{"start":7324.925,"end":7332.912,"text":"我是由教育部跟包含的經濟部,產業的部分主要是在經濟部,後來當然樹花部也成立了。我想在產業的這個部分的發展,可能這個部分是屬於經濟部跟數位發展部的一個權責。這個部分在產業發展的部分,我們也會同相關部會的部分,就有關成立專法的部分來進行這個相關的研議。"},{"start":7349.326,"end":7374.562,"text":"所以我還是想說國際奧林匹克委員會已經指示了電競委員會要展開研究要舉辦電競奧運的可能性我想國家訓練中心在電子競技當中我們有看到一個培訓的場館這也是我們希望的不管是培訓場館或者是家喻補助不只是用在協會上的補助對於電競選手能夠直接的關心這也是我們寄予重望未來我們更希望我們的電競能夠打敗韓國打敗中國"},{"start":7376.443,"end":7379.448,"text":"這是我們未來的展望,我們希望你可以加油。謝謝。好,謝謝羅委員,謝謝。謝謝主席,謝謝。謝謝,謝謝羅廷偉委員。謝謝。好,我們再來請張雅琳委員。"},{"start":7402.526,"end":7408.114,"text":"主席好然後有請次長署長跟執行長謝謝好請次長署長跟黃執行長張委員好"},{"start":7413.496,"end":7436.765,"text":"嗯,大家辛苦了吼。那就是說其實我自己的三個小孩都有參加運動賽事的比賽。所以我長期以來都對於運動發展非常關心。好,基本上在足球場的各種賽事我大概都在現場這樣子。所以呢,我想這最近足協鬧了兩個爭議事件。第一個就是女足的部分。這個爭議的一個極度不平等的一個契約在立法院"},{"start":7437.885,"end":7461.311,"text":"直訊之後再趕緊宣布直訊無效那接著又因為世界被資格曬借謬到場地場地變成從臺要去高雄男子機場那真的是在足球圈一片嘩然那我想這件事情其實我想要討論的是說因為在2017年的時候提改有四大目標基本上就是組織開放營運專業財務透明績效考核那我就想問這個國際賽借無場地營運專業到底在哪裡"},{"start":7466.523,"end":7481.342,"text":"我查了一下我們這個體育行政管理人才其實是有之前有一些課程在108年有辦課程但在108年之後就再也沒有任何的課程了可是我在看關於職能的課程棒球經紀人跟"},{"start":7482.963,"end":7498.852,"text":"運動中心與運管理都還有持續開,開到這兩年喔那我想問喔為什麼我們這個108年這個行政的管理人才的課程卻停擺了呢因為這是非常重要的因為我們這次世足賽之所以沒有場體是我們連預控會議都沒有參加"},{"start":7499.833,"end":7502.694,"text":"這部分其實他在第一期的體育行政管理人才的課程是職業基準也是配合勞動部來進行"},{"start":7520.681,"end":7531.511,"text":"第一期的課程我自己本人也有上所以我當時也是學員之一目前我們持續在辦理當中我們現在第一期的第一個課程的認證是在112年7月28日才認證通過這是因為勞動部的審查需要一段的時間這部分我們會持續來辦理"},{"start":7538.221,"end":7559.857,"text":"那我想問一下就是秘書長的職能基準的這個課程呢因為我在網路上其實找不到資訊但是我調資料是說4月的時候會辦好可是這個基準的校期呢卻到10月27號就截止了等於說要在辦完6個月就結束了就要再重新上嗎是這個意思嗎幫委員我能不能讓我的產業組組長來報告這部分呢好謝謝"},{"start":7564.008,"end":7587.415,"text":"報告委員,之前的體育行政班那個是事辦期間,那我們依據運動產業法案條例第11條,我們就是循勞動部那邊的職能基準建制,還有分兩個階段,然後後面有一個課程發展,所以我們課程發展也經過認證,那預定今年4月會辦理。那這個職能基準到10月底不就結束了嗎?"},{"start":7588.415,"end":7615.644,"text":"它的效期可以再延續OK 好那我希望就是說我們應該要持續的去規劃這些相關的課程喔因為我真的不希望在這種氏族國際賽上面我們竟然還會遇到這樣子的問題那第二件事情其實是我們運科人力的部分就是說我們巴黎賽巴黎奧運已經即將要開始了那大家其實都非常的關注我可是從2020東京奧運的時候就有發現這運科人力的不足人力不足的問題一直存在"},{"start":7617.045,"end":7637.752,"text":"我們從左邊看到這是運科處的部分運科處目標應該有91人可是我們到現在還有差25個人那我們運科中心呢 原額應該是100人可是我們現在還差58個人那我就想要問喔為什麼我們到現在我們還是沒有辦法聘卜一直聘足人這到底原因是什麼是薪資呢還是人才培育的機制有問題呢"},{"start":7638.772,"end":7664.74,"text":"報告委員這部分我先做補充如果說不足之處而請執行長那這部分當時在一開始設計的時候其實我們的確所有人才幾乎都在大專院校所以我們在籌備的過程當中我們已經先設一個薪資的標準希望能夠比照大學的這些助理教授副教授教授等級來聘用那但是呢這個期間籌備的過程到今年其實他在"},{"start":7665.22,"end":7684.075,"text":"除了33位的全職之外已經有跟幾所大學有大概9位都合併的這個教授其實這是循序漸進的部分因為所有人才都在大學那我們當然希望沒有循序來輔導那我想問一下我們大概預計什麼時候會聘主呢?所以薪資沒有問題是嗎?薪資目前應該是沒有他的問題運科處跟運科中心都沒有對對對"},{"start":7685.536,"end":7703.69,"text":"所以我們預計什麼時候會聘組呢?我們在今年目標是53位因為我們在聘人的部分其實還是非常的謹慎因為要把他聘進來之後大家也知道要把他送走其實沒那麼簡單但我們今年目標還是在巴黎的奧運這件事情先把基礎打好了我們再來後續再來做不管是全民健康產業技術計轉"},{"start":7705.271,"end":7706.392,"text":"所以事實上雖然是合併可是他們其實都在中心裡是嗎?是的"},{"start":7734.585,"end":7758.717,"text":"好 了解 那我再想要問第二個問題就是說因為剛剛說薪資沒有問題可是問題是我也發現運科處說薪資沒有問題可是我們的薪資現在數字起薪是四萬兩千多我在網路上面google了一下大概平均的薪資大概是四萬五千多所以這是第一個問題我覺得這好像有落差不然為什麼我們好像流動率你看拼了三十原本是六十六個人可是"},{"start":7759.497,"end":7762.559,"text":"委員 跟委員報告一下我們運科中心的這個薪資的部分事實上在立法院前一個這個前一個前一屆裡面的也是關係這個問題"},{"start":7779.967,"end":7806.62,"text":"所以當時候在110年有全盤去做一個檢討同時也了解這個社會的這個這個聘僱的這樣子的一個薪資的部分整理去做一個盤整所以當時候大概也做了一個調整那麼同時呢也會考慮到他是不是具有國家的證照或具有證照以及呢他的年資還有他的學歷都已經有多了一些調整同時呢也都配合軍公教的待遇來做一個調整所以今年"},{"start":7807.36,"end":7833.199,"text":"今年一月份開始的軍務調整也都同步處理所以等於說今年又重新調整薪資了對不對?那這個東西我們就持續追下去看會不會有這個人力不足的問題那再下一個就是想要討論一下因為其實世界各國他們的運科人才的數運科的員工人數其實是比台灣來的更高那這部分我希望說因為現在在人力編制我們還有再更高的目標嗎?"},{"start":7836.181,"end":7856.366,"text":"目前通過運科中心董事會的部分目前是100位今年會聘到53位這個部分本來就是一個行政法人如果配合實際上的需要未來如果還有增加人力的需要提到董事會去做一個討論之後就可以來實施"},{"start":7856.786,"end":7875.162,"text":"好,我希望這東西我們可以持續的去關注因為我重點是我要想這一張就是說其實我們現在我們運科的人力運科的這個計畫我希望它可以落實到基層我們現在來看一下左邊這張圖我們現在是受測學校到113年到了75個人受測人數到113年是到了1263年可是1263人我們可以看到每年增加的幅度是以10%的"},{"start":7882.808,"end":7888.331,"text":"而我希望就是說因為我們這些體育學生其實都是我們未來的選手的農場所以我希望我們可以去把這些計畫呢真正的再加深再加擴大因為我們明明預算都還有都還有"},{"start":7911.843,"end":7923.01,"text":"讓這些小孩子從小就開始接受這些運動科學的訓練減少運動傷害讓他們可以真正的成為一個好的選手來為國家爭光為自己爭取榮耀所以我想要問最後一個問題是說我們現在這個輔導機制未來可不可以擴大"},{"start":7928.032,"end":7928.853,"text":"那目前桃園、新北、台北"},{"start":7956.793,"end":7958.935,"text":"台中都已經有陸陸續續有加入我們目前還在擴大當中"},{"start":7986.613,"end":7986.696,"text":"主席"},{"start":7987.008,"end":7991.33,"text":"好,那我想知道那這些詳細的機制你已經有計畫了嘛那計畫可不可以提供到我們辦公室謝謝大家,謝謝"},{"start":8017.981,"end":8018.001,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":8037.333,"end":8066.025,"text":"辛苦了我想今天早上很多委員垂詢了很多的我們運科中心的狀況那去年9月正式揭牌我想這是台灣體育很重要的里程碑那我非常期待因為運科中心的成立有助於我們再來的很多的賽事的成績那當然巴黎奧運是首當其衝那可是不過更加重要的是我們國家如何落實"},{"start":8067.745,"end":8090.919,"text":"對選手日常訓練還有生活的照顧與協力那運科中心剛開始成立運作所以很多的事情我知道不可能一步到位包括你的人員很多的其他剛剛很多委員質疑的地方這我們都可以理解可是我比較關心的是說像是我們怎麼樣"},{"start":8092.481,"end":8107.394,"text":"這個運科中心跟國訓中心他原本的運科處的制度或者經驗或人才的這個銜接並且要讓教練跟選手能在相同的支援模式下不間斷地進行訓練跟這個備賽這就是我們現在跟未來要面臨的挑戰喔那我想今天就是要探究我們運科中心的人才培育"},{"start":8117.203,"end":8129.198,"text":"根據運科中心今年度預算中的年度工作目標裡面有提到說推動與國內外大專院校合作培育運科人才及合併教師預計這個2025要正式實施那我想請教說運科中心規劃"},{"start":8136.346,"end":8156.081,"text":"是如何要跟國內外大專業院校來合作那如何從大學端除了教授一些運科的基礎知識以外也培養思辨的能力我們有什麼誘因吸引更多的專業人才來到運科中心那我會提到這個是因為運科中心從事"},{"start":8157.482,"end":8182.46,"text":"現在在國訓中心從事運科工作的工作人員跟我反映所以有些他們覺得有些人員的專業程度可能相對不足怎麼說因為很多專業人才不一定會到國訓中心去他們可能會選擇賺更多錢的地方或者會到國外去追求接觸一些世界超級頂級運動員這樣的機會"},{"start":8186.322,"end":8208.855,"text":"這個基層的議員是反映說他們如果這個人才的這個基礎的學科的知識不足投入實務的時間就算想要去判讀或者解析所謂的運動員的檢查實驗的這種相關數據也可能沒有本錢去進一步去思辨跟融會貫通所以本席認為說我們在大學端"},{"start":8209.835,"end":8229.818,"text":"的努力甚至我們還要從下到國中高中來培養學生的運科知識那大學的部分我是認為說當然就要加強學生的這個思辨能力才有辦法把學到了這些所謂的專業的知識運用的如魚得水"},{"start":8230.359,"end":8251.345,"text":"那國高中升端就是說我們除了一般的考試科目外體育課也不只是打打球跑跑步我覺得老師應該要將運動科學的知識跟這個學科融合那深化運動有益身體的觀念也讓培養一些對這個有興趣的可以進到大學端去"},{"start":8253.326,"end":8273.835,"text":"我聽說我國的運科人員及國外的學者及專業教練的交流機會比較少通常在國際的研討會才有機會交流我當然是認為說我們一定要有機會多讓國外的學者來到台灣來互相交流或者利用獎學金來讓"},{"start":8275.956,"end":8297.924,"text":"我們更多國內的運科人才到我們國外來進修或者吸引外國的人員來到我們台灣所以請問署長你自己也是這個運動科學專家出身那我想一開始我提到這個人才培育這一塊你看到有哪些不足的地方或者我們有什麼樣更精進的作為"},{"start":8298.632,"end":8320.095,"text":"報告委員其實你剛已經講到很多的重點所以在我去年上任之後我在介入整個國家運動科學中心的籌備的時候當時的同仁只有把運動科學中心定位在研發但當時我強烈的要求要包括規劃這件事情因為運科人才他們才能真正的來協助整個選手客製化的一個服務"},{"start":8320.675,"end":8343.147,"text":"人才培育的部分我想運科中心現在當然是初期比較務實的做法先跟各大專業校院的這些教授來合併來合作因為所有的人才國內人才大部分還是在大學裡面那要把他們搶出來其實不太可能那這部分我們先這樣做但我們現在執行長也其實在跟許多的不管工業院的一個網絡人才或者是我們跟國外的"},{"start":8343.707,"end":8363.74,"text":"這些的專大學者的部分其實我們陸陸續續都有在聯繫那也包括也去參訪了一些韓國運科中心日本運科中心以及未來的澳洲這部分我想我們的執行長本身也是運科的專業我想這部分就如同剛剛委員講的這幾個重要要點其實我們都會往這個方向來前進"},{"start":8365.466,"end":8365.707,"text":"五十三位"},{"start":8379.445,"end":8401.323,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8401.423,"end":8424.302,"text":"完全認同也支持委員的講法我們現階段將會在今年暑假開始我們會辦理博士班的類似獎學金的概念直接請大學段的博士在課題上面如果跟我們接近的我們透過獎學金的方式吸引這些博士生的人才進到我們中心來對於第一線的需求做深入的了解進而可能成為我們未來的聘用人員"},{"start":8425.223,"end":8447.881,"text":"所以現在就要開始來正在擬定這個計畫我們將在5月份公告我們希望在下個學年也就是8月1號開始進行這一個博士班人才的培育計畫OK 好 謝謝那另外想要探討的是說在上週的總質詢本是有向行政院長跟教育部長再次提到設置運動相關部會的議題"},{"start":8450.342,"end":8470.632,"text":"這個議題其實我倡議了好一段時間而且其實在1988年的時候行政院就有在評估成立運動相關部會的討論從那一年到現在其實已經36年了我想運動除了教育和培養人才的層面外其實還有很龐雜的專業我們為什麼要推動運動產業發展條例我們就可以看到運動產業的範疇太多"},{"start":8478.536,"end":8507.352,"text":"大體上有13個面向包括運動博弈運動旅遊電子競技運動經濟管理顧問等等這真的是非常的廣泛所以在總質詢的時候潘部長回應本席他說這幾年的台灣的體育的量能跟運動的產業發展確實有很大的擴充所以體育部在辦理這些體育的相關教育部在辦理這些體育的相關事務的時候其實也受到一些的限制所以我們"},{"start":8508.112,"end":8537.572,"text":"因為體育事務很特別嘛特別是我們在跟國外的窗口銜接確實有一些難處那所以我要請教說從實務面來看體育署在辦理這個龐雜業務的當下因為有機關成績的限制碰到有哪些困難那署長跟次長你認為說在面對日益月性的這個產業發展中那運動事務真的有獨立成步或者是說可以跟其他的領域事務合作成步的"},{"start":8538.112,"end":8539.012,"text":"的可能性嗎?"},{"start":8557.757,"end":8579.985,"text":"我們接下來有機會如果成立到部的話可以擴增我們體育署的量能我想這部份在產業的部份才能夠真正的來擴大所以完全認同委員這邊的一個想法所以你都非常支持就是要成立部OK好那我們就期待未來這個行政院來努力這件事情好謝謝主席那個次長署長請回謝林警委員好我們現在請范雲委員質詢"},{"start":8589.909,"end":8593.752,"text":"市長早安市長早安我想先問署長好了待會就請市長再監督署長您上任已經一年了嗎是超過一年了我想今天主要是兩個大題那三個算起來應該算小題第一個"},{"start":8618.431,"end":8645.003,"text":"剛剛您有回應陳委員還有其他的委員關注女球球員被迫簽不平等合約的問題包含不得從事表演廣告代言所有的這些營業權利都歸協會我想請問您您剛剛講的是解決個案體育署到底如何在通案上避免不平等的合約再次上演"},{"start":8645.703,"end":8656.567,"text":"報告委員這件事情有分兩個層面第一個主席一開始理事長我們先不用討論個案了我說整體因為不是第一次嘛那個戴資穎之前的球鞋門就是說被支持他的廣大的就是說球迷發現這完全違反國際規範當時也是個案處理我現在問的是說通案就是說體育署用什麼方法避免再次被報導"},{"start":8674.474,"end":8678.939,"text":"再次還要爆發還要立委關心報告委員我的做法是這樣因為這幾次不管是網球籃球足球連環報的這些議題所以呢我也通案請各個協會我也將在這個月舉辦一個跟協會的一個座談我在媒體上一帶宣傳"},{"start":8691.872,"end":8691.892,"text":"續訪委員長"},{"start":8708.192,"end":8712.416,"text":"我想請您我們看一下20212021年當時我們極地超碼好手林益潔就已經點出問題就是因為沒有一個契約的規範當時我們教文委員就有委員建議教育部應該要提出契約範本"},{"start":8727.992,"end":8751.437,"text":"可是呢到現在你們都沒做我在想為什麼文化部在我們的監督下你現在上文化部的網站就有文化藝術工作者的契約範本專區教育部體育署為什麼做不到呢這件事情已經從戴資穎到現在如果沒有立委幫他們關心或者他沒有辦法大道上新聞的話難道我們等這些協會慢慢你跟他座談輔導嗎"},{"start":8752.857,"end":8773.804,"text":"一文工作者權益的保障當然是重要的文化不能做到體育署是不是可以向文化部學習提出我們體育選手跟協會的契約範本然後上網公告呢?報告委員我完全認同這部分我會再進行那謝謝喔因為時間有限那什麼時候之前可以完成上網可不可以給我一個時間點"},{"start":8775.444,"end":8780.146,"text":"我們還是希望一些專家學者一起會談可不可以3個月給我們一點時間3個月好那就3個月後我們監督好那下一題那其實根本來講就是因為體育協會有協會在處理這些事情產業有那些產業可是運動選手沒有人站在他們的權益上保障所以呢我一直倡議這個是剛剛已經講了倡議應該讓運動員組工會"},{"start":8803.914,"end":8823.276,"text":"那你看我110年11年121年113年每年預算都追緩步前進之前為什麼沒有很嚴厲來問體育署您應該知道為什麼嗎因為我們之前沒有署長我們次長手下要管多少事教育部這麼大的部所以剛臨緊委員希望升格我也非常的支持"},{"start":8824.738,"end":8846.029,"text":"現在署長您來了一年了我可以追問這件事你們下面每次回應我們都是緩步前進請問您體育署應該是站在協會這邊還是站在選手這邊?不管選手跟協會都是我的左右手都是我的夥伴那您協會一天到晚跟他座談您體育選手有座談過嗎?"},{"start":8847.17,"end":8847.65,"text":"您知道有幾個協會有選手組成公會嗎?"},{"start":8866.405,"end":8885.298,"text":"目前有籃球、棒球以及女足公會為主72分之3我已經要到了72分之3所以這樣子報委員我們如果是以沒有拿薪資的部分目前是以國體法裡面的運動員委員會為主但如果是有拿薪水的部分的確這部分我們可以來協助"},{"start":8886.038,"end":8886.538,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":8910.492,"end":8928.378,"text":"你們給我的報告我還要求你們去研究其他國家研究了半天也沒有給我一個研究成果最後結論就是說我們要提供事實且必要之協助那是不是也可以喔兩個月內給我具體的事實且必要之協助的方法辦法好不好"},{"start":8929.438,"end":8943.351,"text":"可以吧?因為您上任一年我現在才催我們已經盯了四年了我不知道你們數下寫的東西都緩步喔那也不方便問次長這麼多問題已經問過很多問題了齁好那這次兩個月給我們具體的措施鼓勵辦法好不好?好"},{"start":8944.552,"end":8950.219,"text":"最後一題也是我之前質詢的時候追的黃金計畫選手遴選機制不公開不透明這是這麼重要的一個資源謝謝上次署長是您承諾要公開"},{"start":8961.755,"end":8979.42,"text":"你們給我的報告還說要三公開二增加保密利益然後增加任用條件強化表示你們看到問題有利益沒有迴避的問題要等等那你想公開你給我的報告說113年期要公開只要是任期結束就可以公開113年期請問署長是幾月幾日叫做113年期"},{"start":8983.443,"end":9010.089,"text":"一月一號開始一月一號嘛那你知不知道你們後來公開是什麼時候公開報告委員是昨天昨天為什麼我們立委你們給我們的承諾一月一號如果我們不盯的話那就變成昨天才公開報告委員這部分我的確有昨天有跟國訓中心來做查詢那國訓中心的人員的確感到致歉那這部分他們接下來會跟誰致歉我都沒聽到"},{"start":9012.33,"end":9025.845,"text":"他要跟我們致歉,跟所有關心體育致歉,因為他自己承諾的事情都做不到,那你知不知道他為什麼昨天會公開?因為委員辦公室有提醒,所以我這邊也...因為我辦公室不是提醒,我們一直催一直催一直催"},{"start":9027.046,"end":9044.272,"text":"到今天要專案報告昨天才公開大家看一下你們答應今年一月一號公開我們立委如果不去追的話這個答應的事情這是蒸發一樣你看這個上網的公開名單從第一屆這多少年前到這個第六屆3月10號才上網你們承諾是一月一號對不對已經"},{"start":9048.353,"end":9049.054,"text":"幫委員這部分我會協同新任的國訓中心那個執行長會好好在這部分來"},{"start":9065.933,"end":9085.804,"text":"鼠掌我是對你期待很高因為我們這麼久沒有鼠掌之前就因為都記得戴資穎那個他飛機的那個席次的問題引發而且戴資穎有這麼多人支持他可是很多選手沒有辦法PO一個臉書文就得到這麼多的支持鼠掌你上任只有一年這不是你任內的錯"},{"start":9087.165,"end":9115.671,"text":"拜託您今天承諾的事情務必完成好不好那我剛剛講你給我的報告說承諾要做到增加任用條件強化跨領域專業增加保密跟利益迴避的規範因為體育署下面的人讓我覺得很難信任那可不可以給我把這些你們的報告承諾白紙黑字鏈入你們競強會設計及運作要點好不好那什麼時候可以就是說修到裡面然後給我辦公室跟教委一個報告"},{"start":9116.451,"end":9116.811,"text":"請次長幫忙監督"},{"start":9141.305,"end":9151.101,"text":"好 謝謝范雲委員那麼再來先處理臨時提案喔那今天有委員提出臨時提案共計兩案請宣讀"},{"start":9154.648,"end":9183.2,"text":"議案運科中心成立目的主要為運動員提供更多系統化科學化的體能訓練運動防護物理治療運動心理及運動營養等支援讓運動員的訓練過程更為精準又安全運動員為了追求比賽成果及創造佳績除了大量體能消耗以外也承受巨大的心理壓力所以建立良好的心理素質及支持機制對運動員比賽表現長期身心健康都有所注意"},{"start":9184.1,"end":9198.466,"text":"運科中心尚未成立前作為國訓中心的運科處負責運動心理諮商領域的專業人員只有5名過去亦有報導指出全台只有54名具備資格的運動心理諮商"},{"start":9199.686,"end":9224.739,"text":"諮詢老師,其中不到二成的人能在體育界有全職服務機會。運動心理諮商需要長期密切追蹤選手狀態因選手及運動項目生良心打造然而實務上只有有望得獎的項目及選手能分配到心理師或是只有在選手對賽期間才得以獲得短期的諮商輔導服務。"},{"start":9226.4,"end":9251.699,"text":"比起選手身體狀況可依靠一切檢查由檢查結果和數字來證明選手的心理健康對運動員的成長和成績影響都難以被具象化往往被忽略不受重視儘管近年國際頂尖選手現身說法倡議後運動員的幸福感逐漸被關注但當專業人員不到位選手心理健康需求更難被看見"},{"start":9252.74,"end":9280.79,"text":"近年許多運動員的親身經歷及專家研究都指出運動員心理健康的中央性及聯動運動表現的影響對運動員的長期心理發展有所幫助包含退役後轉職出入及心理狀態原提案要求運科中心加強培育運動心理師競速提升運動心理師員額及勞動條件進而完備運動員的心理支持制度提案人侯孟凱"},{"start":9281.79,"end":9308.212,"text":"羅廷偉．范雲．萬美玲．零一集第二案．立法委員陳培宇．牛許廷．吳佩義．黃建豪於2月27日共同主辦足球青年聯賽精進辦理座談會本您透過體育署足球協會與臺灣基層足球家長與俱樂部之交流共同討論青年聯賽如何得以永續辦理的可能性"},{"start":9308.752,"end":9333.735,"text":"然該場座談會中中華足協卻拒絕體育署邀請缺席本次座談會顯見體育署對於足協協會之監理輔導已經嚴重失能而無論是足球協會改選後對於青年聯賽態度消極然體育署卻又執意補助中華足協辦理該賽事目前足球協會組成缺乏民主機制與溝通"},{"start":9334.776,"end":9353.865,"text":"以及青年聯賽對於臺灣足球基層發展之重要性與永續經營可能等面向均為與會家長教練與球員們關注方向原詞請停於屬於4月底前針對青年聯賽的永續辦理可能我問是朝向委辦或是開放申請補助的形式"},{"start":9354.885,"end":9378.254,"text":"對立法院教育及文化委員會提出報告讓關心此議題的足球參與者瞭解體育署對本議題之正面回應提案人陳培雲、聯署人郭益勤、范雲、吳佩奕、林盈瑾、黃建豪、牛許廷宣讀完畢好,我們請問提案委員有補充說明或意見"},{"start":9380.763,"end":9394.084,"text":"教育部有來溝通希望我們把嚴重失能改成不足那我們可以接受那是不是也請教育部也確定一下這個這樣的寫法OK好那我們請林次長"},{"start":9394.957,"end":9417.615,"text":"好,跟委員報告一下,針對第一案的部分的話,我們配合辦理那第二案的部分也謝謝我們提案的陳培委員也同意了,我們做文字上的修正也就是第五行已經,第五行的後半已經嚴重失能這六個字改為不足這個部分我們修正後配合辦理,以上說明,謝謝"},{"start":9419.685,"end":9419.705,"text":"紅夢凱委員"},{"start":9436.567,"end":9453.717,"text":"好,感謝昭偉喔,那我們這地案也這個行政部門這邊就是詐案通過而且非常的認同啦齁那也感謝我們所有提案的委員那但是幾個部分第一是不是能夠再給本席以及我們教育委員會的這個委員資料就目前為止我們是個"},{"start":9455.835,"end":9475.863,"text":"運動心理師我們現在配置的這個人數跟這個運作的一個狀況那第二個部分就是我們有提到這個物理治療相對重要但是今天比較遺憾是沒有看到這個我們物理治療的你們講的是原則但是我們到底實際的設備現在有哪些是不是也請我們國訓中心這邊給本席一個資料"},{"start":9476.443,"end":9491.582,"text":"包括說我們看到那個最近NBA啊4萬分那個LeBron James啊他可以打得那麼好打那麼久選手生命因為他常常在講說他有用那個極度冷凍液態氮的那個修復艙啊那我們這個國訓中心這邊有沒有這樣的設備"},{"start":9492.824,"end":9522.773,"text":"﹗"},{"start":9524.646,"end":9524.846,"text":"請羅美林委員質詢時間4分鐘"},{"start":9559.379,"end":9585.507,"text":"謝謝主席 有請林次長還有體育署政署長請林次長跟政署長羅文好次長早次長 這個強化全民國防兵力結構調整方案已經在今年實施了那也就是說我們常被兵役制度再次的恢復為一年的這個意務役"},{"start":9586.827,"end":9613.352,"text":"同時也代表說9494年以後出生的一男即將要服一年的兵役。專長替代役正式的走入了歷史。針對這個議題本席想要跟次長還有署長討論的就是說有關於我們運動選手在服兵役的時候他的運動生涯要如何的延續。"},{"start":9614.312,"end":9617.315,"text":"過去一年或兩年我們針對頂尖的運動選手有許多的措施包括加入軍中的隊伍參加各級的賽事或後期由國訓隊聘請專業教練來帶訓所以我們可以發現像這個制度其實是還不錯的替代役制度至少"},{"start":9639.136,"end":9664.017,"text":"我們這個體育選手的這個生涯呢不至於這個中斷那我舉個例子來講像這個直棒球隊的代訓制度在當時雖然直棒那時候不算是太成熟的一個運動可是呢卻打下了這個惡軍的這個基礎所以呢當時有很多選手都有機會被這個直棒考察加入直棒的機會"},{"start":9665.258,"end":9668.959,"text":"這個總來講還算是一個蠻成功的這個政策我有看到一個去年底的這個媒體的報導說對於這個體育選手的生涯如何延續目前的法院進度還是停留在嚴疫的這個階段所以我想要請教教育部有沒有跟國防部還有內政部這邊來做過這個商討到底這些"},{"start":9691.404,"end":9712.139,"text":"選手的這個宣言要如何延續：相關的法制：內容到底有沒有出來?報告委員這部分我們分兩個部分第一個部分我們去年有跟國防部內政部來做一個接洽那國防部初期初步是沒有打算恢復我們的國訓隊但是內政部的替代一部分的確他們說因為剛上路"},{"start":9714.341,"end":9737.117,"text":"希望在一年後就是今年年底的時候來做一個檢討但是另外一方面我們也去做一個調查與目前高三的學生即將畢業進入了有病疫的問題的選手他們現在都已經有進入有學籍有大學的學籍所以理論上接下來3到4年應該這個問題還不會浮現但是我們預計今年就會跟國防部來做故事上的一個實質的檢討"},{"start":9738.638,"end":9750.325,"text":"所以你們覺得說時間上還來得及就對了?目前還來得及所以還是會朝這方面來進行對不對?是當然我們目前如果亞運奧運有多排的選手其實我們都有補充面的部分那部分是屬於頂尖選手的部分已經有現成的機制"},{"start":9753.703,"end":9771.196,"text":"因為我想說像過去其實很多的這個潛力可以選啊像這個陳金峰也好郭太元也好過去他們也是陸光隊這邊訓練出來的這個頂尖選手所以我在想說因為一年的時間如果讓他的這個體育的生涯中斷呢那是很可惜的因為這部分的話可能會影響他未來的這個生涯甚至會影響到他跟其他外國球團簽約的這個機會所以這部分真的很希望這個體育署"},{"start":9780.763,"end":9793.548,"text":"還有跟我們國防部內政部要好好來做這個研議尤其是說組長說你說還有3到4年的這個時間那我在想說既然說我們已經有這個時程出來了今年之內"},{"start":9794.915,"end":9820.092,"text":"年底至少年底之前這個以後要怎麼樣做這個在服役的時候訓練年底之前應該會有一個完整的方案出來是不是?好委員我們目前就預計在今年年底會跟內政部再做進一步的一個要到年底才來做對因為他需要先一年看看整個狀況啦那但是我們完全贊同委員剛剛提的所有的方向的確我們體育署也很希望能夠恢復到過去的替代這個方向"},{"start":9820.572,"end":9821.952,"text":"謝謝羅美玲委員我們再來請牛許廷委員"},{"start":9848.547,"end":9876.678,"text":"好,謝謝主席喔,這個教育部次長跟體育署長有請喔好請次長跟署長牛偉好好辛苦了喔,這個今天雖然大家是要討論就是說這個新的科學訓練中心能不能提升這個運動選手的一些表現這是很重要大家也都不會反對我相信大家也針對不同的這個細節跟配套提出了一些意見但本期今天在這邊反而要強調的是啊這個"},{"start":9878.459,"end":9894.567,"text":"你搞一大堆中心用很多的科技用科技的方式來處理這畢竟只是硬體部分的提升可是我們一個要不要變成運動強國要不要能栽培出更多的運動人才其實軟體跟環境是更為重要的我是業餘足球員我今天就用足球協會近年的問題來針對這些事情來提出一些質詢"},{"start":9899.329,"end":9923.254,"text":"主席的問題很多馬上要辦世界盃足球賽的資格賽場地問題弄到一個燈光不符合標準的場地然後講借場地的時候流程好像辦的也沒有進入狀況以至於沒有借到場地然後未來接下來其他的國際賽能不能借到場地也是在未定之天第二個是青年聯賽取消的問題這大概有本席深入論述第三個我們的五人制足球國家隊"},{"start":9923.874,"end":9951.252,"text":"之前教練也被砍薪水選手的訓練費也被砍非常的厲害那最後是最近發生的女足的合約不平等的問題啊這些東西在在都是含了基層運動人員的心啊也含了對於足球有興趣的所有這個相關人士大家都覺得很心寒啊如果這些軟體的部分啊這些協會在在處理這件事情的品質沒有被確保的時候你有再好的中心再進步的科技跟再好的技術請問有什麼用呢"},{"start":9953.168,"end":9953.348,"text":"鼠長回答一下"},{"start":9975.606,"end":9994.043,"text":"報告委員其實在去年有一次大院這邊舉行了一個公聽會那當時足球協會是有來出席但是足球協會在當時跟在場的所有的不管是家長還是相關人士的討論之後在會議結束之後整個的方向完全的"},{"start":9994.964,"end":9996.605,"text":"議員們在這個座談會所提出來的這些需求他們也都願意來配合"},{"start":10011.899,"end":10029.84,"text":"蘇長你當初在這件事情結束的時候還發文說因應立委助理的需求啊欸這句話是很糟糕的一句話捏因為今天那天來參加座談會的不只是我們立委本人啦有非常非常多的基層的家長有非常多的教練有很多的國角都是在場的參與的人員你有沒有什麼話要跟他們說你覺得你講這樣的話妥當嗎"},{"start":10031.181,"end":10049.73,"text":"報告委員這部分我的確應該是以家長為主跟學友為主這部分我後面會來改進謝謝你願不願意跟這些有來參加這群很心寒的基層願不願意道歉呢這部分我還是願意對他們致歉因為說實在的我們還是希望把助學協會的督導能夠在行政方面能夠更精進好那我們就談一下細節啦為什麼我們要辦青年聯賽是因為循環賽制對選手的保護是比較好的"},{"start":10054.772,"end":10078.656,"text":"長期的這個聯賽制度確定下來之後對於這個整體各個球隊不管是學校系統也好俱樂部系統也好去培養球隊去以賽代訓等等他會有一個相對安穩的一個期程所以這本來就是正確的你在臉書你講說恢復雙循環賽制我提醒你雙循環不代表不會悲賽化大家現在擔心的是你的一個雙循環你排了兩個禮拜一天打三場五場那是有可能的"},{"start":10079.116,"end":10079.737,"text":"當然要一週一賽啦而且要長期的確定嘛"},{"start":10094.349,"end":10098.211,"text":"委員長,雖然去年有鬧出這樣的賽事上的爭議,但是後來足協也的確有做了一些改善,所以也讓後面這些賽事成績比較不好的這些的隊伍也有去增加他們場次了。"},{"start":10119.14,"end":10135.567,"text":"剛剛既然臨時提案已經通過了那顯然我們後面還會有報告的時間我現在嚴肅的提醒體育署也嚴肅的提醒教育部針對這件事情的處遇方式第一要非常明確第二要符合基層期待你如果有困難有的時候另辟蹊徑也不是壞事啊"},{"start":10135.947,"end":10153.933,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":10154.133,"end":10179.389,"text":"我們也在足球協會也跟我承諾他們在6月這一年度的青年賽事結束的時候會做個檢討會議也跟所有的俱樂部來坐下來談整個賽制的這個滿足他們的這個期待我們希望這樣子的承諾不要跳票啦要廣大基層的聲音要讓大家有參與好好的來解決這樣問題可以嗎好不好兩位辛苦了謝謝好謝謝牛委員謝謝好謝謝牛喜廷委員我們再來請本委員會的吳春城委員質詢"},{"start":10188.952,"end":10192.059,"text":"謝謝主席,請次長、署長好,請署長、次長五位好兩位好"},{"start":10200.988,"end":10223.01,"text":"我今天要來請教這個視狀運的問題那這個視狀運在明年要舉行那這個是由臺北跟新北市聯手這個邀請來的這個國際級的一個賽事但是這個賽事目前好像"},{"start":10224.071,"end":10224.531,"text":"請回答"},{"start":10252.332,"end":10281.548,"text":"報告委員那目前我們曉得臺北市雙北的籌備處給我們的回應是目前報名人數大概是1000人他們目標是希望能夠達到過去的3萬人那5000人對不起5000人那當然這部分還是我也會受到因為他是個人報名我想國際人目前的機票上漲還是會有一些影響但是我們這邊也會積極來協助雙北這邊在他們的整個的推動方面以及宣傳上面能夠再加一把勁那這部分上一次在拜訪委員的時候"},{"start":10282.308,"end":10283.128,"text":"目前我們也在演繹當中"},{"start":10304.017,"end":10320.826,"text":"這個賽事是運動選手最多好像全球當中預估上一屆是有18000名然後配合他的眷屬通常應該會到四五萬名也被視為是一間"},{"start":10323.598,"end":10324.138,"text":"報告委員．報告委員"},{"start":10344.392,"end":10371.769,"text":"比較靠近的時候才會報名但是這個時候要做很好的宣傳這個是國際的那另外一個就在國內的請問這個運動這個要達成什麼運動的目標我不曉得體育署如何來看待它看待它這件事情好像是地方政府的事情好像不是體育署的事情自知事外那看得出來你們對選手有什麼輔導的計畫"},{"start":10373.75,"end":10388.678,"text":"這一個國內的有多少選手報名的項目那體育署有做什麼關心有做什麼培訓有做什麼投入還是自身度外?所以體育署都是這樣定位?"},{"start":10397.643,"end":10423.992,"text":"因為3次委員也有提醒我們所以我們目前的確我們也希望跟各縣市來鼓勵他們那鼓勵這個全民運動是不是體育署的職責對 那我們目前希望說透過不管是運動愛台灣還是跟我們另外起一個新的案子來協助不過這看起來是我們長期體育署的問題體育署把自己定位只是在做一種專業的競技運動把所有的心力都投放在這裡對於全民運動的這個"},{"start":10426.093,"end":10430.216,"text":"我們目前已經在訂邀請了各縣市3月25會來跟各縣市來做那個各協會來做這部分的推動"},{"start":10454.213,"end":10480.024,"text":"目前看起來就是你們投入的只是在像一個活動公司一樣體育署就是說補助一些場地啦然後這個活動的設計對於人員的培訓目前沒有看到作為只有一個就是國人參加這個報名費會比國外來的便宜一點那這是目前好像我們唯一對這個鼓勵國人參加這次運動賽事的"},{"start":10483.465,"end":10511.445,"text":"的一件事情所以那另外要問的一個就是這個臺灣明年2025年進入超高齡社會那世界壯年運動會試壯運剛好就是針對這件事情那兩件事情同在明年要發生那是不是對於我們的"},{"start":10512.486,"end":10512.546,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10542.726,"end":10544.267,"text":"請你們提出一個研究報告出來"},{"start":10562.512,"end":10591.051,"text":"可以沒有問題可以喔那可不可以列入記錄就是針對我們的高齡社會請體育署來研究這件事情同時呢因為這些賽事因為這個我要講一下這個直男來拜會民眾黨的黨團那特別提出了現在看起來包括這打假球包括為什麼會打假球是因為他們的困境這個職業選手當中的生活的保障"},{"start":10591.591,"end":10605.344,"text":"還有這個市場的不足導致這些事情的亂象重生那請問我們政府在這方面有做什麼努力?報告委員那目前我們是用跨部會的方式不管是法務部警政署還有調查局還有我們的高檢署都有"},{"start":10608.827,"end":10634.175,"text":"在各地方各縣市球團所在地都有做一個一個算是協助啦跟不管是在法治教育部分或是現場的監控方面我們目前我知道我知道做了你們跟這個很多的司法單位啦現在當然有一些查緝這個直染不法事件的專案行動啦包括各地的這個地檢署也有一些防治措施喔但是這一個啦只有棍子"},{"start":10635.635,"end":10660.501,"text":"但是沒有蘿蔔反而造成了對球員的負面形象好像這個圈民把他們當作壞人把他們當作這個措施很多但是對於他們的保障的措施有做了什麼呢對這個球員的生活保障薪資水準還有這個運動市場請問在我們的體育主管單位又做了什麼"},{"start":10661.089,"end":10662.13,"text":"但是這樣的還是一種我覺得包括在全民運動當中你們弄得無關"},{"start":10679.531,"end":10680.472,"text":"謝謝,謝謝吳淳澄委員我們再來請徐巧欣委員質詢,時間4分鐘"},{"start":10710.686,"end":10714.211,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請提署長好 請鄭署長"},{"start":10717.267,"end":10740.007,"text":"委員好您知道上週足協有發生什麼樣的大事嗎?很廣泛被討論這部分是足協他沒有辦法在今年的世界盃資格賽對吉爾吉斯的賽事向臺北市體育局借用到臺北田地場的部分那這部分我們過去也有協助在做協調但是到最後他們是沒有辦法接到的"},{"start":10740.467,"end":10761.262,"text":"好的那因為中間涉及到臺北市的場地喔過去我也是臺北市議員所以我想喔希望可以把這件事情做一個釐清那這件事情最大的錯誤呢其實是足協他是完全沒有去管臺北市體育局的一個預控會議我們在這裡很清楚的可以給大家看到喔大家我們圈起來的這個是足協的email"},{"start":10761.682,"end":10774.508,"text":"如果我們看到這個113年長管的預控期程跟開會通知上面來說的話都有發訊息給我們的這些相關的協會那就有談到說如果我們要預控這個期程什麼時候要來開會什麼時候來協調"},{"start":10776.989,"end":10793.899,"text":"所以這個會議是在112年的9月5號舉行所謂的預控就是我們要讓各申請單位會使用場地的時間大家來協調但公告也從去年的6月到9月一直都是刊登的系統在去年的7月19到31號之間開放申請"},{"start":10797.481,"end":10811.754,"text":"但是呢 FIFA在去年7月27號就公告相關的賽事所以實際上足協應該是可以趕上這一個預控登記的也絕對可以參加預控會議的但最後呢足協他不僅沒有登記也沒有參加這個會議"},{"start":10812.995,"end":10838.462,"text":"所以我們相關的公文時間記錄全部都列出來了實際上面先有相關的比賽時間才有預控會議然後呢才去借這個場地那這樣的話當然就沒有辦法成功嘛所以112年10月23號的時候祖協跟北市府協調11月跟馬來西亞的比賽要求市府要擔任11月的檔期當時的臺北田徑廠甚至是還沒有完工的"},{"start":10840.102,"end":10862.93,"text":"後來協調成功之後再包含112年11月17號的公文內容大家看上面都有是要借11月18到22號的臺北田徑廠那這樣就會變成又沒有整修完畢的臺北田徑廠讓大家看到是情況不好的草皮最後還會推給臺北市政府結果原來是足協當時要應借還沒有整修完的"},{"start":10863.49,"end":10868.174,"text":"再來113年的1月18號借了3月21號對吉爾吉斯跟6月6號對阿曼的這個呢最離譜喔去年9月不參加預控會議11月贏選以後也不發文一直拖延到1月才發文要來借今年的場地"},{"start":10880.646,"end":10886.731,"text":"然後113年的3月2號再發文一次借3月跟6月的場地裡面還寫到這個蠻囂張的寫法寫說此賽事如果衍生場地相關負面輿論本會將負責澄清說明所以最後也沒有澄清說明啊"},{"start":10897.999,"end":10922.802,"text":"變成是晚上9點50分去說臺北市政府不借球場逼著臺北市政府晚上10點45還要發新聞稿澄清結果呢足協才在隔天的下午2點發文向臺北市政府道歉一個禮拜道歉了三次禮拜一跟女足國家對選手道歉禮拜四沒有借好場地道歉禮拜五又攻擊臺北市政府但是是錯誤的所以再道歉一次所以這個"},{"start":10924.843,"end":10945.051,"text":"國際賽事我們都希望能夠看到好好辦理足協也是體育署補助前幾名的協會我們最後想請體育署來說明一下未來有什麼樣的機制能夠來監督包含是跟我們的協會去做溝通那來讓類似的情況不要發生否則關心足球的足球迷對這一個過程來說真的是很不能理解"},{"start":10946.711,"end":10961.418,"text":"首先我要再次聲明足球協會在這一次的事件它的行政疏失是則無旁貸那當然根據足協告訴我的一個緣由是因為7月他們競賽組換人所以在交接上出了狀況所以在7月沒有做線上登記他們承認疏失啦那8月的時候當然理事長剛上任他馬上呢也去拜訪了王局長來請求協助王局長當時也協助承諾了11月的馬來西亞賽事那目前3月雖然沒有接到但是6月的部分"},{"start":10975.504,"end":10979.828,"text":"特別是體育局已經合訂這場賽事會讓我們的足球協會來使用那這部分我們在事情發生的當下這其實這幾個月我都在居中做一個協調當然雙方各有立場那這部分我也是協調足協他們在整個的行政方面的這個交接以及所有的列管事情這部分需要再強化"},{"start":10995.94,"end":11007.063,"text":"希望體育署長可以多幫忙否則的話這個足協他沒有去參加相關的會議後續場地出問題的時候那最傷心的還是對於足球相當關注的所有朋友們再麻煩你了謝謝"},{"start":11013.456,"end":11037.487,"text":"好 我們再來請林楚英委員 林楚英 林楚英 林楚英委員不在鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在我們再來請鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在我們再來請鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在我們再來請黃國昌委員 時間4分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":11058.215,"end":11078.757,"text":"謝謝主席 有請署長好 有請署長署長 2017年開始 事實上從2018年2023年 我們有推出了一個足球六年計畫這足球六年計畫到去年年底 結束了嘛 總共花了多少錢"},{"start":11081.872,"end":11083.873,"text":"教育部體育署2017年在本委員報告的足球六年計畫報告計畫也是你們提的預算也是你們提的"},{"start":11110.31,"end":11137.057,"text":"計劃結束了現在多少錢不知道總共執行了多少錢總共大概40億左右花了40億當初提這個6年計劃的時候定的目標是什麼署長還記不記得抱怨當時我並沒有參與在竹夢踏實前進100當時定的目標啊花了40億啊上面的目標說服全體納稅人的所有的足球排名要前進100名啊"},{"start":11139.946,"end":11156.521,"text":"前進100名阿2017年提這個計畫出來的時候排名151阿六年過去了花了40億來請教一下署長現在排名第幾名目前排名第157名是進步還退步是進步還退步退步花了40億以後退步這什麼計畫這什麼計畫花了40億以後還退步"},{"start":11167.793,"end":11189.847,"text":"20177年非常多的年輕人非常多的立委都支持體育改革我們也促成了國體法的修法那時候要求主管機關每年要對體育團體進行輔導訪視或考核這個考核多久要做一次報告委員每年每年要做一次嘛好來看一下"},{"start":11193.153,"end":11199.34,"text":"這個是體育署對中華民國足球協會的訪評報告發表的時間是2023年5月我第一個具體的問題這個訪評報告什麼時候做的"},{"start":11205.073,"end":11229.926,"text":"這個部分是在去年年初的時候他在完成訪評之後來進行報告的撰寫2023年年初的時候進行訪評的撰寫我看了這個訪評報告以後我必須要老實的跟署長報告我看完了以後啊簡直是不知所云打馬虎眼跟剛出國民體育法要求每年要去考評這些單項協會的立法議址"},{"start":11233.22,"end":11236.363,"text":"根本就是交差了事啊來我帶一下祕書長看訪評報告的優點協會祕書長曾擔任體育教授職務這是優點啊這個訪評報告講的協會祕書長是誰啊"},{"start":11250.282,"end":11256.145,"text":"是你吧!哇!體育署的人會做官喔!訪評報告還要先稱讚一下署長嘛!署長當過祕書長嘛!所以這個祕書長就有體育教育職務!有專業!這麼會拍馬屁喔!"},{"start":11272.12,"end":11292.612,"text":"這什麼訪評報告啊來我們繼續往下看訪評的成效訪評的成效是希望你們針對各個單項體育協會不要犯以前的錯誤國家每年撥這麼多錢錢花到哪裡去了成效在哪裡所以要訪評嘛不是拿來拍馬屁的嘛"},{"start":11293.833,"end":11315.045,"text":"結果訪評完了以後除了台協六兵協會曾經遭到停補助策劃秘書長以外其他要不然都警告不痛不癢我們現在來認真的討論竹協的問題我的問題很具體竹協每年從政府拿了上億的補助結果連球員的錢都在欠"},{"start":11316.095,"end":11316.835,"text":"來來來來看一下女足公會要求發發文給足協要求"},{"start":11340.512,"end":11356.923,"text":"及訓費用的欠款還款的期程結果他們發了錢以後跟足協講你匯來的錢你到底是還給誰你還款的期程是什麼我們的足協觀很大面對球員說數難提供"},{"start":11360.68,"end":11379.679,"text":"到底是還什麼不變一一註記曾經當過足協秘書長的署長告訴所有的球員這樣對嗎報告委員第一個他在今年的二月過年前已經將這些款項還清第二個這個註記的部分在今年的部分呢他們"},{"start":11380.179,"end":11384.841,"text":"我只有一個要求啊任何單項協會任何單項協會是為了球員而存在的沒有球員不會有協會結果面對球員球員工會跟他們的請求關好大喔還不必要一一註記喔"},{"start":11411.47,"end":11427.062,"text":"當過竹協秘書長當過竹協秘書長我相信署長阿你感受很深阿需要經費需要補助需要推動我們納稅人國會全力支持6年足球計畫花了40億該給的我們給交這種成績出來不用檢討嗎不用檢討嗎"},{"start":11437.916,"end":11440.74,"text":"我最後一個問題六年足球計畫花了40億為什麼沒有達到成效體育署認為有沒有必要全面檢討"},{"start":11456.19,"end":11469.41,"text":"這部分我們體育署會在後面來做研議跟足球協會再來做商議看未來﹖檢討報告什麼時候要交出來?報告委員我們希望能夠在3個月內可以嗎?好3個月內交出檢討報告可以嗎?好謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":11473.553,"end":11485.478,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員我們再請張家俊委員不在我們再請徐欣盈委員不在我們再請高金素梅委員不在我們再請羅明才"},{"start":11494.182,"end":11495.003,"text":"蔡奕瑜委員林德福委員陳冠廷委員"},{"start":11511.977,"end":11537.051,"text":"今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢另外有科智恩委員．林倩琦委員．葛如君委員．陳秀柏委員提出書面質詢關於今天會議做如下決定報告及詢答完畢委員索密書面資料及相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報對委員質詢要求提供相關資料"},{"start":11538.212,"end":11547.581,"text":"或未及答覆部分,請相關機關競速書面答覆。報告委員會,今天議程處理完畢,現在休息。謝謝各位。"},{"start":11554.924,"end":11564.426,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":11579.491,"end":11579.511,"text":"實戰嗎?是現場?"}]}},{"id":"149710","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149710","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430000e9b7477495ffe57e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a6357500fb7aca0c625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:29:52 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12:35:19","影片長度":"00:05:27","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":327,"end_time":"2024-03-11T12:35:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T12:29:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1574,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時30分）謝謝主席，有請主委，謝謝。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委午安。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委辛苦了。我們時間有限，想要跟主委討論一下，這些年因為臺灣還有全球電視頻道產業的整個收視狀況都非常不一樣，很多頻道跟很多服務都在面臨轉型，我相信主委你一定非常清楚。在轉播權利金市場比較沒有那麼好的臺灣，其實很多體育頻道都受到相關的衝擊，2020年FOX體育台停播，這個部分不知道主委有沒有印象？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：停播？HBO的……"],["陳委員培瑜：我講的是2020年的FOX體育台。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：喔，FOX體育台，對。"],["陳委員培瑜：去年網路上有一個名言是「變了心的女朋友回不來」，什麼東西回不來？消失的影音資料。主委一定覺得很奇怪，為什麼本席投影片上有一塊是空白的？因為相關的訪問在這個頻道離開臺灣之後就再也看不見了，於是如果你去個別的臉書網頁上看，你會發現完全沒有資料了！這樣其實是臺灣體育文化重大的損失。","可是回到NCC的四大核心價值，其中有一個是「多元與本國文化」，說要促進多元文化均衡發展，還要維護本國文化和在地認同。不知道主委你認不認同體育文化是很重要的本國文化和在地認同的一個項目？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然，體育是一個國力的展現，也是一個全民凝聚向心力的項目。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以從剛剛一直鋪陳到現在，體育台的撤出、體育影音資料的消失，主委過去在相關的委員會裡面有沒有進行過類似的討論或是類似的政策規劃？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：目前來講，我們現在在討論尤其是轉播的部分，除了體育台以外，相關的其他頻道是不是有可能適度讓它露出，尤其是奧運、亞運或是一些重大的賽事。當然，剛剛委員所關注的是包括平常的一些職業球賽或者是棒球的部分，這個我們平時都有在關注當中。"],["陳委員培瑜：「關注當中」的意思是什麼？聽起來應該還沒有太具體的規劃。","沒關係，時間有限，我想要跟主委您再次確認，去年我們針對文化部的國影中心有提出類似的案子，或者是像今天去日本拼國會外交的何欣純委員對於NCC都有類似的要求，也就是說，其實有非常多立法委員都一直在提醒NCC這件事情真的非常、非常重要，所以有沒有機會？我們都認為在未來OTT落地的審查，或者是目前現有電視台可能退場，NCC是不是要提早做出準備？NCC跟文化部是不是可以在體育文化這個部分為影視文化的保存共同努力？","因為時間有限，我們可不可以針對本席的四點建議，在最後一分半鐘一個、一個來確認？第一，我們強烈要求NCC可不可以針對FOX體育台退出臺灣，後續相關影像目前留存的狀況做出相關確認？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，這個部分可能涉及著作權的問題，如果著作權可以解決，當然進行全面性的保護，我們也是非常贊成，但是除了著作權的議題，還有相關預算的議題以及maintain，也就是維護的這個議題如果可以解決，我們當然是希望可以把這些相關的內容保存下來。"],["陳委員培瑜：你剛剛講的著作權或者是相關maintain的部分應該是大家都知道有困境，可是如果NCC沒有想要主動介入，不管著作權問題有辦法解決或是maintain方面有辦法解決，我覺得其他都很難談啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是、不是，基本上來講的話，很多著作權的授權當然還是商業機制的問題，除非法律有規定強制授權。如果可以的話，我們跟文化部合作……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以本席的第四點建議就有提到，NCC可不可以主動和文化部、體育署開始共同會商，未來要如何把相關要求納入新設頻道或是OTT的落地審查條件？如果現在沒有開始做這件事情，我們很難想像更多的體育影像就此沒有了。如同您剛剛說的，FOX體育台退出臺灣，它後續要考慮到版權的問題，還有影像maintain的問題，所以再回頭追可能會很辛苦。","第二，NCC可不可以針對電視頻道，加入片庫保存狀況調查？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：調查是沒問題，但是委員剛才所講的這些要納入審查條件，我們在法規上要修正一下，才……"],["陳委員培瑜：如果相關的法規需要修正，我相信立法院跨黨派立法委員絕對會支持，因為體育文化絕對是跨黨派很重要的共同語言。","所以如同您剛剛說的，如果可以開啟相關調查，後續的相關法規、政策或預算，我相信立法院都會支持，我們辦公室也會持續來跟NCC討論這個部分。","第三個，協調頻道業者提供版權及備份檔案，建置電視節目的資料庫，這個一樣有版權的問題，有maintain的問題，有預算的問題，但是我們還是要請主委是不是可以明確地表態，您是支持這個方向去邁進的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就這個方向沒問題，但是我在法規上如果可以去解決這個問題，或相關預算可以解決問題，我們也是希望朝著這方面去處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是我相信今天開啟了這個討論，對於後續的政策或是預算規劃的推動絕對是有意義的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是、是、是。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後，我剛剛講，與文化部、體育署，過往可能沒有這樣的工作經驗，但是絕對是非常重要，所以也請主委是不是再一次肯認這個？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，我們繼續努力，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。","下一位請鄭天財委員，鄭天財、鄭天財不在。","牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭、牛煦庭不在。","廖先翔委員、廖先翔、廖先翔不在。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵、林楚茵不在。","請鄭正鈐委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.83159375,"end":9.008468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.025343750000001,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.919718750000001,"end":10.004093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.15596875,"end":10.392218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.93221875,"end":10.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.26909375,"end":43.737218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.14659375,"end":17.074718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.90159375,"end":48.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.00659375,"end":50.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.01471875,"end":51.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.533468750000004,"end":76.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.90346875,"end":60.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.27221875000001,"end":93.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.75471875000001,"end":97.72034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.37909375000001,"end":94.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.96534375,"end":96.25221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.19721875,"end":107.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.50784375,"end":107.67659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.67659375000001,"end":114.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.69346875000001,"end":108.30096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.37596875000001,"end":120.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.70409375000001,"end":123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楊瓊瓊發言想邀請主委好 主委主委好不再期投票 憲法賦予人民的參政權保障人民投票權是民主社會重中之重 對嗎是的也是我們民主政府首要的任務之一 對不對"},{"start":32.432,"end":56.698,"text":"楊瓊瓔議員"},{"start":57.899,"end":82.892,"text":"韓國、英國、德國等歐洲還有馬來西亞、菲律賓、澳洲、紐西蘭都已經行之有年,對不對那是的是的,好,到目前為止我們的方向都一致所以請教主委不再次投票政府除了要推的我們大家有一個共識就是說公民投票移轉投票相關草案,對不對"},{"start":83.972,"end":84.833,"text":"對於總統選舉以及其他公職人選舉不在一起投票的立場是什麼呢?"},{"start":101.941,"end":120.163,"text":"有關於總統副總統的選舉的部分在102年105年兩度都有草案提出來這個大院但是都沒有辦法完成立法的程序最主要的原因是因為對人的選舉比較牽涉到複雜的這個因素了所以大家沒有辦法達成共識"},{"start":121.184,"end":134.836,"text":"所以我們是希望調整這個推動的步驟也就是說從比較單純的對市的公民投票開始來啟動那實施的方式也是從我們已經有這個實際經驗的移轉投票來啟動"},{"start":138.399,"end":140,"text":"對勢是什麼項目公民投票公投對人的部分選舉希望對勢的公投累積經驗之後再持續的來做檢討"},{"start":155.069,"end":171.951,"text":"請教主委因為剛剛本席一開頭說我們大家都有共識這個方向這是人民的這個權利嘛那你現在所謂的要先從事然後一段時間再來人他的差別是什麼呢"},{"start":172.432,"end":173.473,"text":"主委你說明到這裡是疑慮蠻多的喔"},{"start":191.826,"end":196.951,"text":"選舉過程的可信賴性選舉過程的可信賴性選舉過程的可信賴性選舉過程的可信賴性選舉過程的可信賴性"},{"start":220.491,"end":239.029,"text":"有76張的選票那這當然增加選務的這個複雜度那如果說再進一步的推動到這個地方公職人員選舉的話那困難度更高了所以說必須要各個面向的考量大家能夠累積共識之外還要有實施的一個經驗這個推動會比較是穩健"},{"start":241.864,"end":263.096,"text":"主委如果以你現在我願意之所以給你那麼多的時間來說明也就是外界對於我們民主的牛部話非常的質疑人家其他國家都已經行之有年那為什麼我們會如此呢照你剛剛所說的你是困難重重啊"},{"start":263.616,"end":263.856,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":278.228,"end":292.555,"text":"有沒有自己本身就已經人設的一個標準這樣子對我們的民主是真的不民主啊我們有三次啟動的這個機會但是很遺憾這三次的機會都讓他流失了102年105年還有110年都有相關的草案送進來"},{"start":300.933,"end":323.118,"text":"主委你講這個有點矛盾欸你從102年開始你就推動到現在大家積極要執行之希望好好真正的去推動而不是只上作業的時候你反而告訴我們說是困難重重而且你的人事的部分包括了政黨等等那這樣子不是民主倒車嗎"},{"start":324.138,"end":325.399,"text":"為了維持選舉的一個公平透明我不是說這些困難不能克服所以這個策略之一就是先對事然後再對人"},{"start":339.48,"end":340.641,"text":"全國公民投票不在籍投票法的部分能夠跨出這個重要的一步"},{"start":358.976,"end":387.808,"text":"早一天跨出來部長這個主委你談論到現在本來是質疑重重因為你特別講到政黨問題那這個讓人家覺得蠻奇怪應該你是在規劃整個制度面的問題而不是你先花一個把你才要射箭啊競爭的多點也是選務非常重要的因素當然是如此啊那他國都可以為什麼我們不行呢這個是人民非常質疑的一點啊"},{"start":389.569,"end":389.609,"text":"主席"},{"start":394.707,"end":410.87,"text":"一個民主的權利應該是上維人民信賴保護原則應該是這個是唯一第一個要考慮的嘛對不對整個社會都有一定的對話對啊當然是社會有一個對話但是你是主旗幟的單位啊那如果你已經設法在那裡那怎麼討論呢對不對所以應該是廣納不一樣的聲音進來嗎我們都有在聽好不好你們再去討論"},{"start":419.872,"end":420.512,"text":"主席主席主席"}]}},{"id":"149708","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149708","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300404af0950cef68b443c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a64c70deecae8ed2e75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:20:45 - 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斜坡的所以就是有就要選務人員去抬啊是是這個我們會加這個都有要求都有規範齁"},{"start":298.657,"end":323.202,"text":"我知道這個處委都有要求都有規範但這個選務是地方政府第一線是他們在辦的嘛他們也是報上來跟你們講嘛那他們報上來你們也是看資料而已啊對不對我們沒有那麼多的人力我們也沒有辦法說一個一個去看但我選前我就一直強調"},{"start":324.722,"end":346.69,"text":"這不能這樣子啊你剝奪了身心障礙人的投票的方便性跟權利報告委員這個可能就是我們另外要求除了工作人員的服務來補足之外我們要特別要求你在選擇投開票所的時候就應該要注意到他這些無障礙的這個是否能夠來完成主委"},{"start":347.61,"end":375.288,"text":"你說的都是道理大家都知道沒有落實執行我講句比較不好聽一點的我如果地方政府我故意不要讓投票率高我就故意找這些對不對你沒有落實這個我們一再強調我覺得這一個下次的選舉不管什麼選舉我覺得這一點我們要能夠做到百分之百的避免對不對"},{"start":376.969,"end":383.242,"text":"阿不然你照這樣你也是沒有講成阿你到最後你還不是每個人都一樣技功嘉獎"},{"start":384.637,"end":408.414,"text":"對不對地方選委會他也自己就技功嘉獎啊不是嗎這個都有考評啦沒有沒有考評你也不是第一線啊對不對對不對所以我變成考評不公啊對不對這個我覺得要加強啦好不好好我們會再注意另外啦我們都一直在講選務人員的訓練啊什麼的你們都說有做得很好嘛對不對齁"},{"start":411.178,"end":435.342,"text":"像這次的總統立委選舉就投靠一票所連票不知道是故意的還是疏失我個人認為所有的選務人員不會去故意啦現在大家數值都很高而且幾乎都公務人員在做了不會有這種事情但是我覺得受訓就是這個沒有落實啦"},{"start":436.563,"end":450.42,"text":"這個票是給人家報錯欸假報成疑欸來回差了兩百多票欸那如果不是當場有人制止有人發現有人制止欸就這樣蓋上去了欸這個是百分之百發生的欸"},{"start":455.688,"end":468.998,"text":"對不對所以我覺得這些你們我之前一直跟你們講這些訓練都要很精實結果勒還是一樣我覺得這個真的你們在下一次的選舉真的這個選務人員的訓練要再加強"},{"start":473.72,"end":499.15,"text":"的確是有些個案的確因為是選務工作人員的疏失而造成了一些瑕疵那我們加強訓練這應該是要做的但是最重要的就是說像這樣的情形在現場都有複合的機制一關兩關三關你說這個報票這個投開票所的這個報告票都經過三道的複合的程序所以當場就會被發現"},{"start":500.951,"end":524.636,"text":"不會去影響到選舉的結果但是我說的這個案子是你們的三道符的程序都已經完成了是人家在那邊看開票所的人說你這個亂寫記錯你還要應該印送上去是當場人家提出抗議他才改的這個案我們會再進行了解這個是百分之百的這個有很多人證就在新北"},{"start":526.613,"end":526.633,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149707","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149707","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43002269229dc97da64c7e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a6766d831f399ea9335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"13:04:08 - 13:19:41","影片長度":"00:15:33","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":933,"end_time":"2024-03-11T13:19:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T13:04:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1852,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時4分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請主委。"],["主席：主委請。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好。對於今天NCC所提出來的業務概況報告，我批評裡面有7成以上都照抄，您說業務是延續性的，也提出了一些回復。但我要告訴主委的是，業務有延續性的不是只有NCC啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：主委，你有沒有看到其他部會哪一個抄襲、用字遣詞一模一樣的比例跟你們一樣？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這不叫抄襲，這是我們自己的業務報告，不是抄襲的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！你去看一看財政部的報告，人家也是去年最後一個會期提的，不要說抄襲啦！說複製、貼上沒有錯吧？跟你們複製、貼上的比例是能比喔？拿「業務是延續性的」來欺騙國人，業務是只有你們的有延續性喔？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我們有一些數字，如果……"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們第一步看具體內容，國人最關心的打詐問題，我就要看你們的延續是怎麼個延續法。投影片左邊是你們今年提出來的，我講的喔，檢察官痛批NCC第二類電信沒有管好，成為詐騙集團的幫手，投影片右邊有紅字的部分是你們NCC去年的報告，左邊是你們NCC今年的報告，用字不一樣的部分，我都負責任地幫你們框出來了。去年的報告還比較豐富一點，跟大家說檢察官痛批完對於第二類電信NCC不知道在管什麼之後你們裁罰了什麼，裁罰了亞太電信嘛！台灣之星嘛！海峽電信嘛！我負責任地把NCC有做的事幫你給列出來了。那我就困惑了，從去年到今年，針對第二類電信因為詐騙集團被裁罰、被詐騙集團使用為犯罪工具、害很多人受害的，這種延續性的東西在哪裡？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以我剛才就講了……"],["黃委員國昌：紅字是去年的，就不要再扯了喔！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我知道。"],["黃委員國昌：你講是延續性嘛，那我現在的問題是你的延續性在哪裡？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這裡是去年裁罰的，所以寫在去年嘛，至於今年的裁罰，是……"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以從去年提出報告到今年這個時候……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：在繼續當中。"],["黃委員國昌：有沒有裁罰？有沒有裁罰？有沒有裁罰？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：目前沒有裁罰案。"],["黃委員國昌：目前沒有裁罰案？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：嗯！"],["黃委員國昌：第二類電信不是繼續被詐騙集團使用嗎？為什麼沒有裁罰案？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：總是要經過調查程序嘛！委員自己是訴訟法專家，也知道所有裁罰都還是要經過調查啊！"],["黃委員國昌：好，既然你現在正在調查，那查了幾個案件？說來聽聽啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：目前來講的話，比如說最近魔方的案子在調查，還有其他定期檢查的……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我只跟你講具體的，你不要跟我講抽象的、模糊的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：你調查了什麼案件？講來聽聽啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：比如說魔方的案件我們正在調查當中。"],["黃委員國昌：還有別的嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然，還有黑莓卡的案子，我們也在調查當中。"],["黃委員國昌：還有別的嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這已經很多了，黑莓卡的案子就有好多家啦！"],["黃委員國昌：我具體地跟你講啦！檢察官針對第二類電信，去年年底已經偵結了喔！如果沒有偵結，牽涉到偵查不公開，我們都尊重。已經偵結的第二類電信業者提供第二類電信給詐騙集團使用案都已經被檢察官起訴了喔！檢察官都幫你調查完囉！結果在你們的業務報告裡面半個字也沒提啊！這是什麼延續性的報告啊？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就是因為要等檢察官偵查結束，我們才去做相關行政裁處啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我才問你行政裁處在哪裡啊？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就是還在進行當中、還沒有裁處，怎麼會有報告出現呢？"],["黃委員國昌：去年年底……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：而且報告我們不會寫到那麼細。"],["黃委員國昌：去年年底，針對第二類電信繼續被詐騙集團使用的案件，檢察官都已經偵結了喔！我講的是去年年底，不是上個月底喔！當初海峽電信的事情被檢察官罵完以後，你們趕快罰，因為被罵翻了啊！結果呢？你所謂的延續性報告，在這部分是空白的耶！我敢這樣講，這些資訊在檢察官偵結以後就不再偵查不公開啦！有哪些第二類電信業者把東西交給詐騙集團不需要讓社會大眾知道嗎？不需要？NCC不需要進行裁罰嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然需要啊！但是若要裁罰，第一個還是要經過調查程序才去裁罰。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啊！我就繼續等著，我再看要等幾個月以後你們NCC才會有反應，我站在這邊講，我負責。我說話向來是有憑有據的，我說檢察官已經偵查終結了，那些第二類電信業者都已經被起訴了，結果NCC還是繼續放著。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那不是第二類電信業者，有些東西我們還會去……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！等檢察官接下來進一步，下次我們繼續談。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好。"],["黃委員國昌：今天成立鏡電視的調閱小組，主委有表達你的看法、你覺得遺憾等等，我都尊重啦！立法院也是行使立法委員職權。但這個案子從事前執照的核發、事中附款到底有沒有履行，到事後它違反了當初申設計畫裡的承諾，NCC是怎麼處罰的？對於這三個階段，社會大眾統統都在看。我們都是法律人，我不跟你講抽象的事情，完全都跟你談具體的事情。前面就有關於政治黑手伸入的事情先放著，因為人家大剌剌地說這是總統的旨意啊！這不是行政院長的旨意啊！結果，一開始說這個錄音檔是偽造、變造，鑑定完是真的以後，又說「我吹牛啊！我在內部吹牛啊！」假借蔡英文的旨意吹牛啊！結果假借蔡英文旨意吹牛的人現在還在當媒體負責人啊！真是了不起！","沒關係，我們講具體的。來！看一下，根據廢止權條款第三條，該公司取得執照後，精鏡傳媒股份有限公司董監事及經理人不得參與該公司任何營運。這是廢止權的條款，對吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是、對。"],["黃委員國昌：裴偉是不是精鏡傳媒的董事？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：裴偉目前是吧？是啊！"],["黃委員國昌：他有沒有參與鏡電視任何營運？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：它的財報裡提到，鏡電視十月間變更董事長以後，跟鏡傳媒已經沒有關係了。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！我現在講的不是鏡電視。你看你的廢止權條款，精鏡傳媒股份有限公司董事，裴偉是不是？是吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：精鏡傳媒不在我們主管之下，我們管的是鏡電視啦！"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！那請你看看你們NCC自己做的附款嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是啊！"],["黃委員國昌：這裡的中文有這麼難理解嗎？精鏡傳媒股份有限公司的董事不可以參與鏡電視任何營運。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：這中文沒那麼難懂嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對啊！"],["黃委員國昌：來，第一個問題：裴偉是不是精鏡傳媒的董事？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他沒有參與營運啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！我們一樣一樣來嘛！先確認前提：他是董事嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對啊！他是董事……"],["黃委員國昌：是不是有參與營運再來講嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他是股東，所以沒有參與營運嘛！他不是董事啦！他是股東，但不是董事啦！"],["黃委員國昌：拜託！裴偉是不是精鏡傳媒的董事？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們管的是鏡電視，附款是下給鏡電視，不是下給精鏡傳媒嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！你下給鏡電視……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對啊！"],["黃委員國昌：那附款前提要件不用先建立嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：問題是義務人是鏡電視嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！義務人當然是鏡電視，所以附款寫精鏡傳媒股份有限公司的董事不可以參與鏡電視的營運嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是啊！"],["黃委員國昌：所以我問的第一個前提問題是精鏡傳媒股份有限公司──前提嘛！裴偉是不是董事？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：裴偉是精鏡傳媒的董事。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！我從頭到尾就是在問這個問題啊！有這麼難理解嗎？至於他有沒有參與營運這件事情，剛剛有委員講過了嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他是股東，不是董事。"],["黃委員國昌：三董一監說裴偉就是有介入鏡電視的營運，而你說你們都有調查，請教一下，怎麼調查的？三董一監有叫來問嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然有啊！"],["黃委員國昌：所以三董一監說他們講的是假的嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他們有說法，但我們一定各方調查嘛！有沒有是看事實、公司營運上有沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以調查出來的結果是沒有嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對啊！"],["黃委員國昌：好。","陳泰銘的律師自己講公司大小章還在裴偉手上，公司銀行端的所有資料只有鏡週刊的財務看得到，公司的人事系統也只有鏡週刊的管理部門看得到，連公司內部的人資都看不到公司HR（human resource）的資料喔！這點你們有沒有掌握？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：以這項資料來講的話應該有。"],["黃委員國昌：你們有掌握？所以還是認定他沒有參與營運？你們是什麼態度？對這些資料全部視而不見、閉上眼睛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是，這是律師講的，我們對於他所陳述的還是有去調查，調查以後……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我現在請教你，陳泰銘的律師講得對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上……"],["黃委員國昌：你可以講陳泰銘的律師胡說八道，根本沒有這回事，這是調查結果啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，至少以我們的調查結果來講，並沒有他所講的這種狀況嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：所以我就問陳泰銘的律師講得對不對？你只要針對問題回答就好了。你只要告訴我：「陳泰銘的律師講的這個狀況經過本委員會非常認真的調查發現：沒有，他亂講。」是這樣嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員已經講啦！我們調查的結果就是這樣啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以陳泰銘的律師講的這個內容是不正確的，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：以我們查的結果，目前來講沒辦法證明律師所講的是正確的。"],["黃委員國昌：是你們查的結果沒有辦法證明？還是你們就是放水、亂查嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有放水、亂查，我們都依程序處理啊！"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係。我們繼續、慢慢往下看，看NCC是不是在放水、亂查。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：什麼叫放水、亂查？照程序怎麼是放水、亂查？"],["黃委員國昌：我們接下來再講，你們有沒有約詢過陳泰銘？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：針對陳泰銘，我們請他陳述過意見。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候請他到會約詢的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們有做行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：對，什麼時候請陳泰銘到會約詢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他沒有到會，但是他有表達意見。"],["黃委員國昌：所以他沒有到會？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對啊！"],["黃委員國昌：你們調查這麼潦草喔？這麼關鍵的人都不用到會喔？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，他曾經到內容事務處，由我本人……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候？時間講具體一點，什麼時候到內容事務處講？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他111年有到內容事務處做行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：對，但什麼時候嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們等一下查一下日期。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，現在馬上查，我等著。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有行政調查報告。"],["黃委員國昌：好。","我不知道陳泰銘去NCC跟你們講了什麼，但我知道陳泰銘在外面怎麼講。主委，我唸給你聽：「我們的資料都給他了，他沒有嗎？結果主管機關可以管的都不管，叫我們自己去把董事長罷免掉，你知道我的意思嗎？做官而已，沒有要做事啦！NCC是在審核什麼？審核頭殼一個洞的啦！這麼簡單的事不去做，太扯了啦！」我敢說陳泰銘講過這些話，我一定負責。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：但陳泰銘立下切結書，這也是他立的，不是我們叫他寫的，對不對？"],["黃委員國昌：我們一樣一樣來嘛！"],["主席：黃委員，再給你3分鐘。"],["黃委員國昌：你們基本的調查連人都沒有傳來！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：怎麼沒有傳來？當然有啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！什麼時候傳來的嘛？人家講的跟你們的調查結果就是不一樣嘛！大股東公開控訴耶！指的是陳耀祥耶！說你只想做官、不想做事啦！你審核什麼？審核頭殼一個洞的啦！我澄清一下，這不是我罵的，這是鏡電視大股東陳泰銘罵的耶！"],["主席：黃委員，3分鐘。"],["黃委員國昌：好。"],["黃主任委員文哲：委員，我先補充一下。陳泰銘董事長來我這邊是因為陳泰銘……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候來的？"],["黃主任委員文哲：111年。不過不是我約談的，是陳泰銘主動來問我們一些關於附款執行的情形，包括附款可不可以、有沒有變更的可能性，他是詢問這件事情。"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪了，我剛剛問的是你們有沒有約詢他嘛！"],["黃主任委員文哲：我們有約詢他，但陳泰銘本人沒有來。"],["黃委員國昌：對於他有沒有賣股這件事情，你們有沒有約詢過他？"],["黃主任委員文哲：他有書面表達我們問的事情。"],["黃委員國昌：我們繼續再往下看：「本來就該這樣啊！帳簿寫得那麼清楚……週刊跟電視的人事劃分根本全部不適格嘛！你都不去查！」誰沒去查？他控訴的就是NCC啊！你若要聽音檔，要音檔我也有，只是時間關係啦！而且若是音檔直接放出來，我怕震撼力太強啦！","再往下看：「我們董事做的決議，董事長都不執行，他說你不高興，你來告我啊！官司拖兩年，董事長早就卸任了。你主管機關可以去審核」。他在講的是董事變更的案子。「你都沒在做，叫我們民間去做。還有更離譜的，我們給他的這些資料，他把它copy給蔡滄波啊！」蔡滄波是誰？鏡電視的總經理嘛！我具體問一件事，面對陳泰銘的控訴，他們給你們的檢舉資料，你們有沒有copy給蔡滄波？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有啊！如果這樣就有洩密問題啦！"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，因為社會要不就是不信任你們的調查，要不然就是你們調查出來的結果非常的sloppy啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，他講的正確性我們早就懷疑了。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，今天成立調閱小組以後，這些事情慢慢再講。你可以繼續否認是你們的，你也可以繼續說「我們NCC的調查公正嚴明、絕對正確、禁得起社會考驗」。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：絕對如此。"],["黃委員國昌：是不是真的這個樣子？我們接下來就繼續往下看。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就看看嘛！"],["主席：黃委員，喝點水、休息一下好不好？我怕你累了。","謝謝黃國昌委員。","下一位請黃珊珊委員發言。黃珊珊，黃珊珊不在。","林思銘委員發言。林思銘，林思銘不在。","王美惠委員發言。王美惠，王美惠不在。","張嘉郡委員發言。張嘉郡，張嘉郡不在。","蘇清泉委員發言。蘇清泉，蘇清泉不在。","徐欣瑩委員發言。徐欣瑩，徐欣瑩不在。","林沛祥委員發言。林沛祥，林沛祥不在。","高金素梅委員發言。高金素梅，高金素梅不在。","麥玉珍委員發言。麥玉珍，麥玉珍不在。","邱志偉委員發言。邱志偉，邱志偉不在。","羅明才委員發言。羅明才，羅明才不在。","蔡易餘委員發言。蔡易餘，蔡易餘不在。","陳冠廷委員發言。陳冠廷，陳冠廷不在。","陳雪生委員發言。陳雪生，陳雪生不發言。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：說明及詢答完畢。","一、有關今日通傳會業務報告及專題報告，主席經過徵得在場委員意見後，決定請通傳會再行補充資料，並另擇期補行報告，通傳會書面報告列入紀錄，並刊登公報。","二、委員麥玉珍、游顥、王鴻薇、何欣純、廖先翔、陳素月所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報。","三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請通傳會儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.72534375,"end":14.492843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.138468750000001,"end":14.965343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.78721875,"end":21.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.985343750000002,"end":28.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.76909375,"end":35.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.97471875,"end":37.814093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.89846875,"end":40.547843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.51409375,"end":40.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.93596875,"end":43.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.462843750000005,"end":47.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.34846875,"end":50.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.50409375,"end":50.976593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.976593750000006,"end":52.174718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.195968750000006,"end":51.297218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.854093750000004,"end":51.955343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.174718750000004,"end":53.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.76096875,"end":54.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.01409375,"end":54.064718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.064718750000004,"end":55.71846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.44409375,"end":56.460968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.460968750000006,"end":59.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.375968750000006,"end":62.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAK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我們進一步啦看具體的內容國人最關心的打炸的問題所以我就要看啊說你們的延續是怎麼個延續法左手邊是你們今年提出來的"},{"start":88.797,"end":95.604,"text":"我講的喔檢察官痛批NCC第二類電器沒有管好成為詐騙集團的幫手"},{"start":97.85,"end":125.481,"text":"右手邊這邊有紅字的是你們NCC去年的報告左手邊是你們NCC今年的報告有不一樣的字的部分我負責任的都幫你們框出來了去年的報告還比較豐富一點跟大家說檢察官痛批完了第二類電信NCC不知道在管什麼的時候你們裁罰了什麼裁罰了亞太電信嘛"},{"start":126.121,"end":147.31,"text":"台灣之星嘛海峽電信嘛我都負責任的把NCC有做的事啊幫你給列出來了那我就困惑啦從去年到今年針對第二類電信被詐騙集團裁罰被詐騙集團使用為犯罪工具害很多人受害的這個延續性的東西在哪裡"},{"start":149.734,"end":153.257,"text":"從去年提出報告到今年的這個時候有沒有裁罰?有沒有裁罰?"},{"start":170.342,"end":187.452,"text":"有沒有裁罰目前沒有裁罰案目前沒有裁罰案第二類電信不是繼續被插片集團使用嗎為什麼沒有裁罰案總是要調查程序嘛委員自己是訴訟法的專家知道我們所有的裁罰都還是要調查啊好你現在在調查哪幾個案件說來聽聽啊"},{"start":189.634,"end":192.637,"text":"沒有關係我只跟你講具體的不要跟我講抽象的模糊的你調查什麼案件講來聽聽啊"},{"start":204.578,"end":224.48,"text":"比如說魔方的案件我們在調查當中還有別的嗎當然還有黑莓卡的案子我們在調查當中還有別的嗎這個已經很多了黑莓卡案子就好多家啦我具體的跟你講啦檢察官稱對第二類電信去年年底已經徵結的喔如果沒有徵結牽涉到偵查不公開我們都尊重"},{"start":225.219,"end":248.481,"text":"已經癥結的第二類電信的業者使用第二類電信給詐騙集團都已經被檢察官起訴囉檢察官都幫你調查完了結果在你們業務報告裡面半個字也沒提啊這什麼延續性的報告啊就是因為檢察官等他偵查結束以後我們再相關去做行政的採取啊"},{"start":249.604,"end":276.415,"text":"對嘛 所以我才問你行政裁處在哪裡啊所以還在進行當中還沒有裁處怎麼會有這個報告出現去年年底 去年年底 去年年底針對第二類電信繼續被詐騙集團使用的檢察官都已經貞節囉我講的是去年年底喔不是上個月底喔不是上個月底喔當初海峽電信的事情被檢察官罵完了以後趕快罰啊"},{"start":277.435,"end":291.336,"text":"被罵翻了啊結果呢你所謂延續性的報告這邊是空白的我敢這樣子講我敢這樣講這些資訊檢察官申請完了以後就沒有偵查不公開了"},{"start":292.352,"end":310.535,"text":"有哪些第二類電信的業者把東西交給詐騙集團我們不需要讓社會大眾知道嗎不需要NCC不需要去進行裁罰嗎當然需要但是你要裁罰你還是要去調查程序我後就繼續等著"},{"start":311.756,"end":339.453,"text":"我就繼續等著我在看等了幾個月以後你們NCC才會有反應我站在這邊講我負責我說話向來有憑有據的我說檢察官已經偵查終結了那些第二類電信業者都已經被起訴了結果NCC還是繼續放著那不是二類電信業者有些東西我們會去查沒有關係啦等到檢察官接下來進一步我下次下次我們繼續談今天"},{"start":341.654,"end":356.545,"text":"陳立進電視的調閱小組主委有表達你的看法你覺得遺憾等等的這個我都尊重立法院行使立法委員的職權但這個案子從事前執照的核發"},{"start":357.666,"end":379.913,"text":"市中付款到底有沒有履行事後他違反了當初在申設計畫裡面的承諾NCC是怎麼處罰的這三個階段社會大眾通通都在看那我們都是法律人我不跟你講抽象的事情我完全都跟你談具體的事情前面就有關於"},{"start":383.206,"end":407.56,"text":"政治黑手深入的事情先放著因為人家大剌剌的說這是總統的旨意這不是行政院長的旨意然後結果一開始說這個錄音檔是偽造變造去鑑定完是真的以後說我吹牛啊我在內部吹牛啊"},{"start":408.891,"end":433.761,"text":"假借蔡英文的旨意吹牛啊結果假借蔡英文旨意吹牛的人啊現在還在當媒體負責人啊真是了不起沒關係我們講具體的好 來看一下廢紙權條款第三條該公司取得執照後經濟傳媒股份有限公司董監事及經理人不得參與該公司任何營運這個是附廢紙權的條款嘛 對吧"},{"start":436.499,"end":462.521,"text":"培偉是不是經濟傳媒的董事培偉父親是吧是啊他有沒有參與進電視任何的音樂他的財報裡面講進電視因為十月間變跟董事來後跟進傳媒有什麼關係的不是啦我現在在講的不是進電視你看你的廢紙權條款經濟傳媒股份有限公司董事培偉是不是是吧"},{"start":465.199,"end":483.245,"text":"經濟傳媒不知道我們管的是禁電視的對嘛請你看你們NCC自己做的付款嘛這中文有這麼難理解嗎經濟傳媒股份有限公司的董事不可以參與禁電視的任何營運這個中文沒這麼難懂嘛第一個問題培偉是不是經濟傳媒的董事"},{"start":484.332,"end":485.032,"text":"培韋是不是經濟傳媒的董事?"},{"start":506.513,"end":535.567,"text":"我們管的是淨電視我付款是下給淨電視不是下給經濟傳媒阿對嘛你下給淨電視那你的付款前提要件不用先建立嗎但是問題是說我們的醫務人是那個阿醫務人是那個淨電視嘛醫務人當然是淨電視嘛所以這個付款寫經濟傳媒股份有限公司的董事不可以參與淨電視的營運嘛是啊所以我們問的第一個前提問題經濟傳媒股份有限公司前提嘛喔台位是不是董事"},{"start":536.803,"end":563.731,"text":"培韋是進進傳媒的培韋我從頭到尾就在問這個問題有這麼難理解嗎他有沒有參與營運這件事情剛剛有委員講過了嘛他是股東三董一間三董一間說培韋就有介入進電視的營運啊你說你們都有調查來請教一下怎麼調查的三董一間有叫來問嗎當然有啊所以三董一間說他們講的是假的嗎"},{"start":565.151,"end":589.923,"text":"他們的說法我們一定是這樣各方去調查嘛有沒有是看那個事實去公司的營運上有沒有所以你調查出來的結果是沒有嗎對啊好陳泰銘的律師自己講喔公司的大小張還在培威手上公司的銀行端的所有資料只有進桌刊的財務看得到公司的人事系統也只有進桌刊的管理部門看得到"},{"start":591,"end":618.67,"text":"連公司內部的人資都看不到公司HR Human Resource的資料這個你們有沒有掌握這個部分來講的話這個資料來講應該有你們有掌握所以他還是沒有參與營運你們是什麼把這些資料全部視而不見閉上眼睛這是律師講的我們當然最後他所陳述還是有去調查所以調查來講我現在要請教你陳泰銘的律師講的對不對"},{"start":621.239,"end":637.97,"text":"你可以講說陳泰銘的律師啊胡說八大根本沒有這回事這個是調查結果嘛至少我們調查結果來講並沒有他所講的這種狀況嘛所以我就說嘛陳泰銘律師講的對不對你只要針對問題我回答就好了你只要告訴我陳泰銘律師講的這個狀況經過本委委員會非常認真的調查發現沒有他亂講"},{"start":644.534,"end":653.413,"text":"是這樣嗎?委員已經講了啊 我們調查結果就是這樣啊對嘛 所以陳泰銘律師講的 這個內容是不正確的 對不對"},{"start":655.512,"end":674.477,"text":"我們查的結果目前來講沒有辦法去證明說那個所謂的律師講的是正確的是你的查的結果沒有辦法證明還是你們就是放水亂查嘛沒有放水亂查好沒有關係我們繼續慢慢往下看看NCC是不是在放水亂查來我們接下來再講你們有沒有約詢過陳派米"},{"start":681.437,"end":701.213,"text":"陳耀祥我們有請他陳述過意見什麼時候請他到會約詢的我們有做行政調查對 什麼時候請陳耀祥到會來約詢的他沒有到會但是他有表達意見所以他沒有到會對啊啊你們調查這麼潦草喔這麼關鍵的人所以跟我們報告他有曾經到內容事務處什麼時候時間講具體一點什麼時候到內容事務處講"},{"start":709.104,"end":733.299,"text":"他111年有到我們內容處做行政調查對 什麼時候嘛這資料我們等下日期查一下嘛啊沒關係現在馬上查我等著啊有行政調查報告我不知道啦陳泰銘去NCC跟你們講了什麼但我知道啊陳泰銘在外面怎麼講主要我唸給你聽喔啊我們的資料都給他啊啊他敢不"},{"start":737.008,"end":755.573,"text":"阿結果主管機關可以管的都不管阿叫我們自己去把董事長罷免掉阿你知道我的意思嗎?要做官而已啦!不然要做事情啦!NCC是在審核什麼?審核一個偷窺的啦!這麼簡單的事不去做!需要罷免啦!"},{"start":756.843,"end":772.255,"text":"我敢說陳泰銘講過這些話我一定負責那陳泰銘立下竊結書這也是他立的也不是我們叫他那個對不對我們一樣一樣來嘛你們基本的調查連人都沒有傳來怎麼還沒有傳來當然有啊"},{"start":773.776,"end":795.925,"text":"對嘛!什麼時候傳來的嘛!人家講的,跟你們調查的結果就不一樣嘛!大股東欸!公開控訴欸!陳耀祥欸!你自己想要做什麼,不想做什麼啦!你算好什麼?你算好投給一個空的啦!欸!我澄清一下,這不是我罵的!這個是禁電視啊!你罵股東,我罵你罵他!"},{"start":800.346,"end":825.663,"text":"我先補充一下陳泰銘來陳泰銘董事長來我這邊是因為陳泰銘什麼時候來的他去111年不過不是我約談的是陳泰銘主動來問我們一些有關於付款執行的情形他可不可以付款有沒有變更的可能性他在詢問這件事情那奇怪了我剛問的是你們有沒有約詢他嘛我們有約詢他但是陳泰銘本人沒有來他有沒有發言這件事情你們有沒有約詢過他他有順便表達這件事情再往下看嘛"},{"start":830.206,"end":830.806,"text":"董事長都不執行"},{"start":859.312,"end":886.085,"text":"他說你不高興你來告我啊啊官司拖兩年他董事長早就卸任了你主管機關可以去審核他在講的就是董事變更啊的案子啦你都沒在做叫我們民間的去做啊叫我再給你report我們給他的這些資料他到底copy給蔡昌坡啊蔡昌坡是什麼人今天是個總經理嘛來我具體問一件陳泰銘的控訴"},{"start":887.423,"end":911.718,"text":"他們給你們的檢舉資料你們有沒有copy給賽昌坡沒有啊沒有嗎好沒有關係沒有關係因為社會社會要不然就不信任你們調查要不然你們調查出來的結果啊非常的sloppy啊沒有他講的但是非常的sloppy那沒有關係我們今天成立了調閱小組以後這些事情慢慢再來講你可以繼續否認是你們的"},{"start":912.742,"end":930.367,"text":"你也可以繼續說我們NCC的調查公正、嚴明、絕對正確、經得起社會考驗是不是真的這個樣子我們接下來就繼續往這裏打黃委員喝點水啊 喝點水休息一下好不好好啦 謝謝黃國昌委員"}]}},{"id":"149706","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149706","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300bf66e0b71fa560c07e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a61a5bdcbe6895c8a55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"12:57:26 - 13:03:50","影片長度":"00:06:24","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":384,"end_time":"2024-03-11T13:03:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T12:57:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1808,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（12時57分）謝謝主席，有請陳主委。"],["主席：主委請。"],["陳委員昭姿：主委，我想先跟您請教。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，您當NCC主委以來，你面對有高度社會爭議的案件，包括鏡電視的執照審議案，包括三立入股中嘉案，您覺得你自己是不是有秉公處理，有善盡調查的責任？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然，秉公處理而且依法去調查。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我從上一屆的立法院公報上，看到的事實卻不是這樣。在公報紀錄上，有多位立委針對NCC處理的過程當中，發生許多違法或是爭議的事情，而且他們具體提出了很多例子，要求成立調閱小組。當時包括從鏡電視取得新聞臺的執照，到鏡電視取得執照之後發生的違法事情，還有NCC自己內部行政作為的部分，我們看到主委您都一再地推拖拉，認為只要NCC交出報告，依法調查，要是有什麼事情交給NCC處理就可以了。而且我也看到在公報紀錄上，民進黨執政黨利用他們的人數優勢，5度封殺在野的提案，我就不一一唸出。","主委，過去這幾年來，我個人認為您的工作是非常好當的，因為面對爭議的事件，總是有人幫您護航。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，這是依法處理，不是護航的問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是現在新的民意出現了，今天稍早交通委員會已經成立調閱小組的提案，我想請教主委，在接下來的調閱辦法及調閱資料範圍的討論上，您是不是願意承諾，將所有鏡電視執照審查的過程、核發執照後的檢舉案以及NCC進行審查調查的所有相關資料，您都願意如實地、沒有隱瞞地、毫無保留地交出來供調閱小組來審視嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上來講，上一屆會期我們就做了5次的專案報告，相關的調查資料、報告資料我們都已經……"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有，今天已經正式成立調閱小組，接下來要您的配合。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，成立調閱小組是大院的權力，那我們有哪些資料，只要合法的前提下要提供的，我們就依法提供。"],["陳委員昭姿：您承諾您會如實地、無保留地交出這些資料嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我們是依法，有些東西……"],["陳委員昭姿：所以是有條件的？好。主委，你就是一貫的做法。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有些東西在刑事調查當中，依照憲法本來就沒有辦法在調閱範圍內。"],["陳委員昭姿：主委，對於前年原本鏡電視三董一監辭任的事情與原因，我想你很清楚。請問主委與NCC，對於當時三董一監所陳報的鏡電視報告已經明白點出鏡電視很多作為違反NCC核發新聞臺執照的附款要求，而且也和董事長蔡滄波隱瞞三董一監正式回給NCC的報告內容互相牴觸、南轅北轍，當時NCC做了什麼樣的調查或有行政作為嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：第一當然是請鏡電視提供相關資料，第二是請當事人來，比如說做相關的行政調查。"],["陳委員昭姿：主委，這就是問題！你就是請當事人來回復，當事人說沒有違反，你就認定沒有違反，是這樣嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：若沒有請當事人回復，要請誰回復？一定是當事人才知道啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：你怎麼不行使調查權呢？你自我限縮嗎？推拖拉？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我們對人調查、對事調查都有啊！都有進行相關調查。"],["陳委員昭姿：難怪鏡電視前董事長陳建平多次發出聲明，控訴你和NCC都在擺爛、放水、包庇。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是啊！程序上就只能這樣處理嘛！不能因為不如他的願就說我們……"],["陳委員昭姿：下一張。這是去年鏡電視前董事長陳建平發出的公開聲明，我就擷取其中一段。陳建平說，鏡電視大股東陳泰銘跟陳致遠支持的三董一監四個人發現鏡電視早就違反了NCC核發執照的附款要求，不管是裴偉、精鏡傳媒公司和鏡電視公司之間的關係人交易等等，而且他們一再要求調查，都沒辦法釐清。鏡電視跟鏡傳媒公司之間也沒有依照NCC的要求進行業務切割，人資系統、財務系統都還是共用、設備共用，採購還是精鏡傳媒公司在幫鏡電視處理。這些身為鏡電視內部的三董一監，都正式行文向NCC檢舉，結果主委你還是護航啊！你還是擺爛啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有護航啊！對於這件事情，我們就照他們的檢舉去調查啊！至於我們目前的調查結果，也符合相關附款。"],["陳委員昭姿：主委，我知道這是你一貫的回答。","那我們看下一張。這幾個人就是鏡電視執照核發當時的八大股東，根據NCC附款規定，他們持有的股份6年內禁止轉移。請教主委，這個規定現在還在嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：還在啊！本來就在附款裡面啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：但是，主委，這8個股東裡面，有人一開始就是人頭，也有人取得執照以後就把股份賣出去。請問主委，你是否知悉？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：事實上，我們掌握的資料……"],["陳委員昭姿：NCC有沒有掌握跟調查？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然有調查和掌握資料，而且要求他們提切結書，也都沒有……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們調查還是一樣，是本人簽的嗎？他們是基於自由意志簽的嗎？也就是犯規的人、做不該做的事的人，他們說他們沒有做錯，你就認為他們沒有做錯嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，第一，簽切結書是因為他們本來就要切結嘛！第二，相關資料我們當然要調查，對人、對事都要調查，沒有錯啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：好。","最後就是金流的事。主委，您說過NCC沒有辦法查金流，後來被金管會打臉了。然後你又說檢調才可以查金流，但是後來金管會主委黃天牧先生在上一屆立法院也提到，只要NCC自己在內部規定講清楚，是可以查金流的。所以基本上就是NCC限縮自己的職權、推拖拉！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有啊！我們有請金管會協助啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：好。","主委，是這樣的，新的民意已經出現了，調閱小組透過今天的提案也成立了，是不是請你配合，把所有資料交出來、如實地交出來？我想，對你、對NCC都算是職務上、工作上的善了，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：在符合法律的前提之下可以啊！但問題是哪些東西屬於符合法律，我們要去檢視嘛！"],["主席：時間到，謝謝陳昭姿委員。","下一位請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.58284375,"end":8.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.130968750000001,"end":8.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.61159375,"end":12.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.26096875,"end":13.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.239718750000002,"end":27.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.68909375,"end":30.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.777218750000003,"end":41.189093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.45159375,"end":35.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.610968750000005,"end":49.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.27221875,"end":63.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.531593750000006,"end":69.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.57284375,"end":70.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.05784375,"end":73.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.07846875,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.38596875,"end":84.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.89096875,"end":86.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.76846875000001,"end":91.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.13471875,"end":94.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.02471875,"end":96.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.12159375,"end":126.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.43346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資料範圍的討論上您是不是願意承諾"},{"start":109.584,"end":124.273,"text":"將所有跟靜電視執照審查的過程和發執照後的檢舉案以及NGC進行審查調查的相關所有資料您都願意如實的沒有隱瞞的毫無保留的交出來供這個調閱小組來審視嗎?"},{"start":126.793,"end":151.326,"text":"基本上來講的話我們上一屆會期我們就做了5次的專案報告相關的調查資料報告今天已經正式成立調閱小組這個成立調閱小組這個是大院的權利了那我們有哪些資料只要合法的前提要提供的我們就依法提供您承諾您會如實的無保留的交出這些資料沒有沒有有些東西來講如果我們想依法有些東西所以是有條件的好"},{"start":151.906,"end":166.958,"text":"有些如果在刑事調查當中來講的話這依憲法本來就沒有辦法在交易的範圍主委前年原本靜電視的三統一間他們辭任的事情跟原因我想你很清楚請問主委跟NCC對於當時三統一間所呈報的靜電視報告已經明擺點出靜電視很多作為違反NCC合法新聞台執照的付款要求"},{"start":175.265,"end":203.825,"text":"而且也和這個董事長這個蔡昭波隱瞞隱瞞三董一間甚至回給NCC的這個報告內容互相抵觸南圓北側那麼請問當時NCC做怎麼樣的調查會有行政作為嗎我們當然相關第一個是請進電視去提供相關的資料嘛第二個請這個當事人來講的話有些比如說做相關的行政調查主委這就是問題你就是請當事人來回覆然後當事人說沒有違法你就認定沒有違法是這樣嗎"},{"start":204.545,"end":207.147,"text":"曾建平多次發出聲明, 控訴你和NCG都在擺亂放水包庇。"},{"start":220.057,"end":246.172,"text":"不是啊,我們程序上就只能這樣處理嘛。不能說不如他的願,就是說我們...這是去年靜電視前董事長陳建平發出的公開聲明。那我就擷取其中的一段。陳建平說,靜電視大股東陳泰銘跟陳俊仁支持的三董一間。他們四個人發現靜電視早就違反了NCC合法執照的付款要求。不管是培委和這個精進傳媒公司跟和靜電視公司之間的關係人交易。"},{"start":247.193,"end":264.155,"text":"並備質詢。．並備質詢。．"},{"start":264.224,"end":266.345,"text":"主委,我知道這是你一貫的回答,那我們看下一張"},{"start":287.031,"end":309.304,"text":"這幾個人就是淨電視當時在核發執照的時候這個八大股東那依照付款規定NG的付款規定他們持有的股份是六年內禁止轉移請教主委這個規定現在還在嗎還在啊這本來就我們付款裡面啊那但是主委這八個股東裡面有人一開始就是人頭一有人取得執照就把股份賣出去請問主委你是否知悉"},{"start":309.684,"end":312.005,"text":"NCC有沒有掌握跟調查?你的調查還是一樣的,本人簽的嗎?還是他們是有覬覦自己簽下去嗎?你就是說要犯規的人,做不該做的事的人,他們說他們沒有做錯,你就認為沒有做錯嗎?"},{"start":332.299,"end":351.738,"text":"最後就是金流的事主委您說過NCC沒有辦法查金流後來你被金管會打臉了然後你又說減掉才可以這樣查金流但是金管會主委後來黃天牧先生在上一屆的立法院他有提到只要NCC在自己內部規定講清楚是可以查金流的所以基本上就是NCC限縮自己的職權沒有我沒有請金管會協助"},{"start":354.46,"end":380.208,"text":"那就是主委是不是這樣的新的名義已經出現了吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼"},{"start":382.199,"end":383.208,"text":"好,謝謝陳昭姿委員"}]}},{"id":"149705","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149705","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300fd00a30911d31ecb7e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a6dd8566ac4e98ee245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"12:50:53 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靠著媒體上台上台以後 第一件事情是什麼掌控媒體消滅媒體這個我們的女王啊 這個一上台了以後圈養英權歌功頌德追殺政敵七百多天不開記者會連獎金果都做不到欸"},{"start":118.873,"end":128.979,"text":"為什麼這麼的藐視媒體為什麼這麼的大膽因為他有一隻鷹犬這鷹犬是誰你知道嗎"},{"start":132.697,"end":156.898,"text":"你不知道喔?那不然你知道今天為什麼你的各委員會當中為什麼大家這個你的最熱鬧呢?法國委員我不是陰犬第二個就是說NCC本來就是獨立機關那各個新聞頻道我們現在新聞頻道比你們以前多太多了那各種意見也都有所以為什麼我剛才所講的臺灣的新聞只有在亞洲以前嘛OK好你看一下一個你說這一個"},{"start":159.72,"end":179.372,"text":"這個是英國牛津大學路透新聞研究所這很權威的全球的媒體他出了2023年數位新聞的產業報告對於開放自由媒體的環境的台灣受訪者對我們台灣的媒體的信任度只有28%"},{"start":182.119,"end":200.3,"text":"所以是有開放但是信任度降低很重要是事實查證有沒有辦法落實是這個問題因為委員你們已經在治理時報來講的話媒體不多但是你們公信力強現在是媒體多那公信力強不強就見仁見智了就是這樣子是那媒體的環境惡化我剛才在問你說媒體環境有變好還是變壞"},{"start":203.303,"end":223.638,"text":"所以是變幻,你的意思就是變幻而且媒體整個環境有大的變化因為當時根本連網路都沒有現在很重要的是現在人民的資訊來源不是只單純傳統的OK你看下一頁再來我不只是這樣子特別是在選舉期間感受"},{"start":225,"end":249.805,"text":"最深刻感受更加的深刻幾乎所有的媒體遇到柯文哲遇到我們黨主席幾乎而且是一面倒的甚至連廣告都不賣他媒體是社會公器這誰在管啊誰在管怎麼會管成這樣的一個環境呢這誰的責任"},{"start":251.51,"end":251.55,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":279.895,"end":289.502,"text":"然後最近的新聞說這個蔡奈在溝通NCC的新委員那這件事情是不是事實?"},{"start":292.01,"end":315.679,"text":"這個我不知道這個媒體在傳這樣子的所以看到NCC的不獨立不公正控制媒體就可以控制政權在台灣的確是這樣在過去的蔡政府的八年下來然後八年來就是你來當NCC主委的這樣子媒體呢"},{"start":316.959,"end":340.956,"text":"有效率的控制擁有媒體就擁有一切所有事情由你來控制所以呢賴政府還繼續要有樣學樣嗎?台灣民眾黨要求還給媒體第四權的生存環境我做一個媒體人非常清楚做一個媒體人的尊嚴做一個媒體這個媒體產業當中嚴重的沉淪"},{"start":344.939,"end":361.588,"text":"這個NCC沒有責任嘛所以在後續的NCC委員的任命上民眾黨一定強力的嚴選八位我可以說明一下嗎基本上來講的話其實就我的觀察還有各界我們學術界觀察最擅長使用新媒體的反而是民眾黨"},{"start":362.568,"end":362.668,"text":"謝謝吳春城"}]}},{"id":"149704","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149704","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300fa7743ba70977bfb7e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a6f8ee8e183dec96ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:42:32 - 12:50:46","影片長度":"00:08:14","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":494,"end_time":"2024-03-11T12:50:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T12:42:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1664,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時42分）謝謝主席，請陳主委。"],["主席：主委請。"],["張委員啓楷：主委你好。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：今天好多委員都在提說你以前是一個很有名的開明派學者，可是你看，現在準備要回學校了，那麼多人在罵你。再當70天，可以好好把握一下。","我先提一個最重要的案子，好不好？對你來講，可能是現在心裡最大的痛吧！就是鏡電視這個申設案，大家一直都在傳，很多的傳聞是檢舉歷歷哦！說政治黑手進去嘛！那你這個痛是連北檢都已經把你列為他字案的瀆職罪被告，對不對？我先問你一下……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，他字案很容易，你剪個報告就會被……"],["張委員啓楷：檢方，對，所以我要問你嘛！北檢約談你了沒有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：約談是沒有，但是有調查證物，有調查相關的證據。"],["張委員啓楷：調查中，調查到什麼程度？沒有約談，有問過你……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：要了資料嗎？還是怎麼樣？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：人的部分沒有約談，但是物的部分有調查證據，就是說相關的證據，我們的一些流程什麼，相關的這些證物它有調查。"],["張委員啓楷：所以已經在調查中嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，調查中。"],["張委員啓楷：那你這邊回應它的，解釋清楚了嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們的程序就是這樣子，我們相關的資料就是這樣處理，我們把這些審查過程的相關資料給檢察官。"],["張委員啓楷：其實為什麼要告你瀆職罪？就是說政治黑手伸進來，結果你在立法院……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：歹勢，我不知道……"],["張委員啓楷：歹勢，我講一下。你在立法院也承認你跟洪耀福碰了面，然後三董一監，大家也有意見，現在就是說指證歷歷很多事情……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是，我是說洪耀福我本人是認識。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，讓我說完，你等一下可以講，沒有問題。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：我是說證據那麼多，所以人家去檢舉，北檢才會把你列為被告嘛！是不是這樣？我的意思是說，指證歷歷的同時，你剛剛說你有回應了一些資料，對不對？你要說服我，還有說服全國民眾，說你是沒有問題的啊！是不是這樣？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對啊！為什麼到目前為止還是他字案？如果真的有問題來講，早就改成偵字案了，所以我們的資料完全是依法去處理相關的問題，並沒有任何剛才委員所講的弊端存在裡面。"],["張委員啓楷：是不是弊端，現在還在查就對了？已經有調了……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個就是尊重檢調單位的調查，我們把相關資料給它。"],["張委員啓楷：還在調資料就對了？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個問題，可能也是你心裡的痛吧！我們蘇貞昌前院長直接講啊！說你最聽話啊！NCC的主委怎麼可以聽話？這對NCC的獨立性、中立性是很大的傷害，你都沒有抗議嗎？你都沒有抗議？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那是新聞報導裡面所寫的，我怎麼向院長抗議呢？因為那是新聞報導所寫，我可以拿新聞報導向院長抗議說是這樣的講法，我沒有辦法跟院長這樣說明嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：主委，今天給你機會，你對著全國的民眾講，這個事情是假的，不是真的，蘇院長講的是假的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：蘇院長來講，從來沒有跟我講過任何像媒體報導的話語，也沒有講所謂的最聽話也好，或是命令我做什麼事情也好，沒有！我是依照我自己相關的法定程序跟職權去做事情。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你覺得你有聽蘇院長的話嗎？大家就講政治……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，這不是聽蘇院長的話。"],["張委員啓楷：你最聽話，政治黑手伸進來，你到底……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有、沒有，我們表示沒有辦法接受這樣的說法，就是說我們一個案子進來，它到底符不符合要申設的條件，這個不是只有我的部分，這個是經過好幾個程序，甚至於有相關的聽證或公聽的這些程序去處理的，我一個人沒辦法指揮這麼多人，說你一定要給它，不可能啦！"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！主委，歹勢，時間有限。我再請教你，有一個案子是三立入股中嘉案，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["張委員啓楷：這個案子看起來也是很明確，你自己都承認嘛！對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：三立的大股東……"],["張委員啓楷：可是你的處理，我現在問一下，你的處理方式，你後來只有罰了這個系統業者1,440萬嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["張委員啓楷：你不覺得太輕了嗎？會不會太輕？這樣會不會有阻嚇的作用或者警惕的作用？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為法律上我們是裁處這個系統業者，因為什麼？我們現在的有線電視法裡面，對於其他的大股東去投資這個部分來講，法律上並沒有相關的處罰規定，我們現在為什麼廣電三法要修改？就是說以往我們都認為頻道沒有用到公家資源，沒有用到稀有、稀缺資源，所以自由嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，現在有兩個問題，第一個就是你不覺得12家系統業者罰得太輕，這是一個問題。第二個，當然我同意你剛才說的，你現在要罰三立罰不到，是法有問題。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對啊！"],["張委員啓楷：可是人民會講不合理啊！一個是合不合理的問題，第二個是法，你現在還有70天嘛！本席會很明確地提出廣電三法的修法，包括你剛剛講的，因為現在法律不完整嘛！可是馬上提，包括有線電視，我們透過衛廣法的修法很清楚地明定，第一個，它的財務是要公開透明的；第二個，只要是持股5%以上的最終受益人，他本身就是要披露，有義務要公開披露的，包括接受政府的補助，本身都是要透明的。本席馬上就會提出這個法，你現在還有70天，你今天能不能允諾，做一個補破網的動作？1個月內，NCC這邊也提出一個修法，把它補起來。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們修法是有，跟委員報告，這個大方向基本上，我個人啦！我個人都是支持，但是問題是4月份馬上就要提名委員，我現在剩1個多月，你叫我1個月提出這麼重大的事情來。"],["張委員啓楷：當然是你下臺之前要做這件事情，這對你的名聲也好啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我知道、我知道，修法我們大概……"],["張委員啓楷：而且是補破網，你回去可以跟你的學生、跟全臺灣的民眾講，你去做了補破網的事情啊！因為這個不合理，沒有罰三立嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我知道，這個有……"],["張委員啓楷：如果是法的問題，趕快去把它補起來啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我當然儘快去處理，因為本來我們在討論就討論很久了，這個東西應該可以做。"],["張委員啓楷：我知道，所以你儘快是多久？你能不能給我一個答案？1個月太趕，1個半月？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為法案我們提出來，還要公聽，還有各界的意見，你說我1個月……"],["張委員啓楷：在你下臺之前，你回臺北大學之前，這個法案不能提？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們NCC本來就是一個延續性的事情，我們是希望把這個東西訂好，像委員這個方向我們也是贊成，但是要把它訂好，比如說到底是哪些人要公開、公開到什麼範圍，這個是大家都可以討論的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：就剛剛那三個原則啊！很簡單啊！財務公開透明……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果說5%以上，如果說以最終受益人……"],["張委員啓楷：持股5%以上有義務要申報啊！公開透明啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果以我個人來講，我是支持。"],["張委員啓楷：接受政府補助的，這三個對你來講……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對、對、對，我支持啊！但是問題是……"],["張委員啓楷：你支持，這麼簡單的東西！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是啦！委員……"],["張委員啓楷：這個有很困難嗎？我的版本都已經擬好啦！我們最近就會提啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：立法，我們都是……"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，主委，你能不能給我一個允諾？你下臺之前，你離開回臺北大學之前，廣電三法這個修法一定提出來，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：草案……"],["張委員啓楷：還有70天耶！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這樣好不好？草案我們會提出來跟各界討論，這樣可以嗎？我們把草案提出來。我要送到立法院，我要……"],["張委員啓楷：你們之前就在討論了，你現在就是把案子很清清楚楚地提案啊！提到行政院去啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是，委員，我們立法，我提案要經過行政院，行政院再提送，哪有可能……"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！我是說至少在你離開回臺北大學之前，這70天，至少你的案子出門到行政院，可以嗎？來得及嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我希望可以朝這個方向去做。"],["張委員啓楷：要努力啦！要努力，這是為你好，為了我們臺灣好，要做啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好啦！但是我不敢向你承諾。"],["張委員啓楷：你要承諾。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：現在行政院也在看守階段嘛！到520就要就職，在那時候我也才剩一個多月而已，當然我是希望……"],["張委員啓楷：你還有70天啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我希望可以朝這個方向去處理，但是我不敢跟你承諾說我離開以前，這個東西有沒有辦法送到行政院去，我希望是朝這個方向去走。"],["張委員啓楷：朝這個方向，那儘量在……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：儘量在我要離開前，看這個草案能不能出去。"],["張委員啓楷：這樣還是沒有那個……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有啦！因為……"],["張委員啓楷：你這樣會不會讓全民失望？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有、沒有，不是失望，我是遵照制度。"],["張委員啓楷：你回去在教學生時，學生問你說你還有時間，為什麼這個事情明明該做的不做呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，4月底新的委員如果產生，他8月1日就職，我再趁他還沒8月1日就職前，把一個法案丟出去，這個不是對於未來的……"],["張委員啓楷：不會啊！這個是很好的法案啊！這不是只有你認為好，我認為好，全民都認為好的啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這是制度問題。"],["張委員啓楷：而且最最重要的，你認為現在沒辦法去罰三立，你覺得道理上也說不過去，你認為是法的問題，那補破網你要做啊！怎麼不做呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有、有、有，我們要做啊！只是沒有跟你說確定的時間。"],["張委員啓楷：要做就趕快做啊！"],["主席：主委，你儘量朝這個方向去走，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，OK，我就儘量朝這個方向去走。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：時間到了，謝謝張啓楷委員的發言。","下一位請吳春城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":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對不對"},{"start":220.868,"end":233.985,"text":"這個案子看起來也是很明確你自己都承認嘛對不對可是你的處理我先問問一下你的處理方式你後來只有罰了這個系統業者一千四百四十萬嘛現在你不覺得太輕了嗎會太輕嗎因為我就是想我們才處這個系統業者因為為什麼"},{"start":239.391,"end":258.523,"text":"現在有限電視法裡面對這些所謂的其他的大股東去投資這個部分來講法律上並沒有相關的處罰規定是不是我們現在有些我們現在為什麼廣電商法要修改就是說像以往我們都認為這個頻道沒有用到公家資源沒有用到說稀有、稀有、稀有、剩稀有現在兩個問題第一就是你不覺得12家系統業者罰的太輕這是一個問題嘛那第二東西我同意你剛才說的"},{"start":264.887,"end":280.82,"text":"你現在罰3例罰不到跟法有問題可是人民會講啊沒合理啊一個是合不合理的問題第二個法你現在還有70天嘛本席會很明確的提出來廣電三法的修法包括你剛剛講的因為現在法例不完整嘛可是馬上提包括"},{"start":281.857,"end":283.018,"text":"我們修法是有的"},{"start":311.76,"end":334.919,"text":"委員報告了齁 這個大方向基本上我個人啦我個人都是支持嘛但是問題是說現在兩名市委我們要提委的我現在剩郭博威我你叫我一郭博威提出這麼重大的事情來你當年是你入台之前要做這個事情啊這對你的名聲也好啊而且是補破網你今天可以讓你核心啊跟全台灣的民眾講你去做了補破網的事情啊委員這個不合理沒有法審理嘛那如果是法的問題趕快去把它補起來啊"},{"start":335.619,"end":364.337,"text":"這個我當然盡快去處理因為本來我們在討論就討論很久了這個東西應該在...我知道所以你趕快下去你能不能給我一個答案這位小瓜 瓜博貴我如果我提出來要再公聽各界的意見你說我...你回台北大學之前這個法媒體我們NCC本來就是一個延續性的事情我們是希望把這個東西訂好像委員這個方向我們也是贊成但是要把它訂好比如說你到底是哪些人要公開公開什麼範圍這個大家都可以討論的問題就當那三個原則啊很簡單啊"},{"start":365.477,"end":387.062,"text":"如果說不該透明是我發了以上有義務要申報啊不該透明啊接受政府補助的這三個對你來講你支持啊這麼簡單的東西這個有很困難嗎我的版本都已經擬好了啊我們最近就會提啦欸抱歉你不要給我一個引誘你下台之前你離開啦回台北大學之前廣電三法這個修法一定提出來可以嗎"},{"start":390.484,"end":412.756,"text":"法案我們會提出來跟各界討論,這樣可以嗎?我們把法案提出來,我會送到台灣你現在就是把案子很清清楚楚的提到行政院去啊我們立法結果我提案要經過行政院,行政院再提到報科我告訴你,你離開回台北大集市這70天送到至少你的案子出門到行政院可以嗎?"},{"start":414.887,"end":422.353,"text":"我希望可以朝這個方向去做我希望可以朝這個方向去處理但是我不敢承諾過我離開以前這個東西有沒有辦法送到立法院行政院去了我希望朝這個方向去做"},{"start":441.84,"end":470.028,"text":"朝這個方向那盡量在盡量在我可以我要離開前可以看這個草案能不能出去了這樣還是沒有沒有那個因為你這樣會不會讓全民全民全民失望沒有沒有不是失望我只是准教這一套你回去你看你還想要幹還想要問你說你你還要有時間你想要這個事情明明該做的不做呢報告委員市委在市委在新的委員如果要產生他8月1號就職我在趁他還沒8月1號就職把一個法案丟出去這個不是這很好的法案啊對"},{"start":471.088,"end":471.268,"text":"謝謝張啓楷委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"149703","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149703","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300872617847137c1647e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a683adf546086f61b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"12:35:45 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12:42:13","影片長度":"00:06:28","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":388,"end_time":"2024-03-11T12:42:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T12:35:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1606,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（12時35分）主席好，我想請陳主委。"],["主席：主委請。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：主委好。NCC從2006年成立到現在18年了，到你為止，歷經有6位主委，那你之前是表示你要做到7月份，對不對？你就要回學校去，確定是這樣子嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，因為我的借調日期已經到了，借調時間到了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：到7月嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：7月31日。"],["鄭委員正鈐：7月31日，你準備要回哪個學校？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我是臺北大學公行系的老師借調。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你要回臺北大學去，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我為什麼特別提這個點呢？因為過去這6屆的主委當中，你如果到7月，你等於也是做得非常地長，可是我要講一個狀態，就是「人死留名，豹死留皮」，你在任期當中也是一個爭議最大的主委，很多人、很多媒體、很多委員都覺得你是打壓媒體最力的一個主委，也是行政最不中立的一個主委，是箝制言論自由的劊子手，很多標籤都貼在你的身上。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這我沒辦法接受。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我要講的一個狀態是，因為你剩下的時間如果到7月，你還有好幾個月的時間，我希望你多做一點有功德的事情啦！不要一直在這邊講。","那我要講一個點，今天因為我們有兩個臨提，一個是針對鏡電視調閱小組的提案，這個部分本席一定是百分之百地支持，因為去年6月28日我們去NCC，你把我們鎖在外頭，你把自己鎖在裡頭。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，你把我們的辦公室占了耶！不是這樣子。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你們完全不讓我們去監督這個部分，然後這個事情……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：監督，你在立法院監督……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個事情我覺得很清楚，所以今天我們委員會這邊成立鏡電視調閱小組，希望能夠在你離開這個位置之前，我們能夠把這個問題好好地釐清。同時還有另外一個案，就是譴責案啦！另外一個是譴責案，主委能夠做到被委員會通過譴責案，我覺得也是不容易啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們表達高度的遺憾。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這裡面很清楚提到：針對國家通訊傳播委員會，（NCC）主委陳耀祥踐踏民主監督機制，敗壞官德官箴……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個我沒辦法接受。"],["鄭委員正鈐：嚴重藐視國會之行徑……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個在會議紀錄上會留下紀錄，我是抗議啦！"],["鄭委員正鈐：莫此為甚，應予嚴厲譴責。本席也非常地認同這個狀態，雖然我不是交通委員會的，可是我要特別講一個點，就是針對鏡電視這個案子，現在有調閱小組出來，然後針對中天案的狀態，10個案當中，15個案子都輸。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有15個案子都輸的問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是15審都輸，10個案子15審都失敗。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：勝敗以確定為準。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這10個案子，包括民進黨造勢「大家麥離開」這個事情，一審勝，更一審上訴也勝；鳳凰雲案的時候，二審勝，更一審勝，更一審上訴審還是勝；大政治大爆卦討論農漁業滯銷的問題，一審勝；小韓粉嗆扁為何罵韓國瑜，二審勝；質疑「卡救命錢養蚊滅韓」，一審勝；質疑蔡救印越登革熱年逾800萬，一審勝；校園霸凌女學生，二審勝，更一審勝；KTV霸凌案，一審勝；浙江臺商爸call in喊冤，二審勝，更一審勝；中天新聞換照案，勝。","在這個部分當中，我們發現NCC這3年來，敗訴率是多少？可不可以給我一個數字？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，看委員是說從全部的敗訴率……"],["鄭委員正鈐：整體敗訴率是多少？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我請我們法務處一下，不好意思。"],["蔡處長志儒：我們統計2016到2023年，確定的總共有68件，其中20件敗訴，48件是勝訴。這裡面……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不過我說明一下……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以敗訴率是多少？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：20件是敗訴，其中有11件是黨政軍的問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：反正你直接給我數字就好，給我數字就好。"],["蔡處長志儒：20件敗訴的部分，那總數是68件，所以是29.4%。剛剛主委……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以總共百分比是多少？"],["蔡處長志儒：29.4%。"],["鄭委員正鈐：29.4%，對不對？"],["蔡處長志儒：對，可是有11件是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：29.4%，對不對？這已經高過最高行政法院院長吳東都所認為的，之前他認為在臺灣一審行政訴訟，原告的平均勝訴率是19.4%，NCC顯然比這樣子的數字更不及格。我要講的是，NCC在這個過程當中，有很多的案子顯然是跟法院的看法不一致……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員……"],["鄭委員正鈐：跟民眾的看法也不一致，包括中天案，法院也直接打臉，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：黨政軍就扣掉11案。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我們認為現在NCC這麼多敗訴的部分，要讓民眾來買單你們打官司的錢，我覺得其實很不應該。剩下這幾個月，我希望陳主委好好地做，做一點有道德良心的事情，不要繼續打壓臺灣的言論自由、民主政治，好好做，人死能夠留名。","其實NCC是一個獨立機關，你走掉之後，這些總統、行政院長也不會來幫你背書，也不會幫你講一些話，請你好自為之。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以我們都依照法律去處理，謝謝委員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那麼今天的兩個案子，譴責案本席是非常支持的，謝謝，以上。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們高度遺憾，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。","下一位請楊瓊瓔委員發言，楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔不在。","請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.549093750000001,"end":7.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.76846875,"end":6.342218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.88221875,"end":7.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.202843750000001,"end":8.012843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.543468750000002,"end":30.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.91221875,"end":33.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.27034375,"end":35.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.89471875,"end":36.244718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.62034375,"end":35.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.143468750000004,"end":38.337218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.337218750000005,"end":41.290343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.391593750000006,"end":75.59721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.47596875,"end":41.509718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.48846875,"end":42.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.05284375000001,"end":90.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.91721875,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.03534375000001,"end":80.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.32909375,"end":113.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.93721875000001,"end":113.95409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.95409375000001,"end":113.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.97096875000001,"end":114.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.00471875000001,"end":114.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.54471875,"end":114.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.73034375,"end":114.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.74721875,"end":114.81471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.81471875000001,"end":114.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.96659375,"end":118.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.03409375000001,"end":115.65846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.98721875000001,"end":171.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.41284375000001,"end":123.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.90659375,"end":149.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.55034375,"end":164.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.91971875000002,"end":172.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.18534375000002,"end":180.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.30659375000002,"end":183.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.01909375000002,"end":186.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.47034375,"end":188.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.79909375000003,"end":202.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.01784375000003,"end":193.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.17221875,"end":205.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.58096875,"end":216.89159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.05596875,"end":221.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.78534375,"end":222.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.78096875000003,"end":226.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.13034375,"end":249.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.91596875000002,"end":254.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.67471875,"end":257.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.79659375,"end":258.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.40409375,"end":261.52596875},{"speaker":"SP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12:29:52","影片長度":"00:05:47","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":347,"end_time":"2024-03-11T12:29:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T12:24:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1541,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（12時24分）好，謝謝主席，請主席請陳主委。"],["主席：好，主委請。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：主委好，針對電信的詐欺問題，我想在此來就教陳主委，說實在因為我們最近詐騙案層出不窮，政府也有效的在打詐，對於臺灣民眾最關心的相關議題，不管各黨各派的委員，我相信都相繼的在詢問這個問題，大家關心打詐的成效，今天本席也對於這個問題想來請教主委，跟主委討論一下，對於電信詐騙案的逐年暴增，從去年法務部到立法院來做專題報告時所提供的這一張數據看起來，可以看到新收的相關電信詐騙案件逐年上升，占全國新收案件數的比率也都不斷往上跳，不但越來越多的國人受騙，司法系統也難以消化。以宜蘭縣來看，去年有登記的被詐金額也超過7億以上，所以我相信全國各縣市的數字可能更驚人。","其中我想請教主委關於人頭門號的問題，現在已經有許多詐騙案是利用申辦漫遊或是預付卡的方式，以人頭門號來作為犯罪的工具，讓檢警在偵查時往往難以查證到對方的真實身分，變成辦案的一個斷點，對於這種大量的人頭門號造成詐騙案難以追查的問題，作為主管機關的NCC有什麼樣的因應措施？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝委員的提問，也謝謝委員非常關心這個現在全民最關注的詐欺、詐騙問題。以NCC來講，我們是從源頭管理去強化電信業者門號管控的問題。"],["陳委員俊宇：對。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就是剛剛委員所提的，很多問題都出在哪裡？本身來講，如果大的電信業者（MNO）像中華電信、台哥大、遠傳，這個基本上比較沒有什麼太大的問題，就我們所查，目前問題比較沒有那麼大，最大的問題是在原來有很多他的企業客戶，也就是說我們原來有很多MVNO虛擬行動業者的這個部分，為了落實源頭管理而且取得法律依據，我們除了給電信業者相關的指引以外，最重要的是我們現在訂定用戶號碼管理使用辦法，我們課予MNO就是像三大電信還有他的企業客戶這些相關用戶的KYC（認識你的用戶），透過這個部分，的確我們在源頭大量降低了冒用或是用人頭帳號。只是這個犯罪的問題，就是剛剛委員所提的，這個東西很難完全根絕，我們努力把這個數量、數字壓下去。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，主委，現在有一些軟體的app，它的功能其實都有實質幫助到民眾對於詐騙電話的過濾，我也希望，不管是NCC主動去開發這種軟體，或是配合相關業者來做把關，假設這個電話號碼經過許多人反映是詐騙電話，我們應該要主動出擊，讓這個電話不能再使用。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。我們現在很多app的確有防詐的功能在裡面，當然是看普遍使用的程度啦！就像委員你來自宜蘭，宜蘭有些鄉親或者是包含我們中南部，可能因為年紀的關係，他們對數位的使用比較沒有那麼習慣，這部分我們都會加強宣導，而且我們也會要求電信業者予以必要的協助，去降低這些人受詐的機會。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我希望要落實管理，希望電信業者應該要對於這個詐騙案重視啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然。"],["陳委員俊宇：不是因為要賺錢，相關過程都不理……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然，我非常贊成。"],["陳委員俊宇：假設發現到詐騙電話，電信業者應該也要主動把這個電話號碼先停掉。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有、有、有，我們都有要求他們這樣做。"],["陳委員俊宇：現在看起來，如果我們要裁罰到第一類的電信業者可能機會比較少，都是在第二類。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對、對、對。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以對於這個部分，我希望NCC應該要主動跟這些電信業者做比較有效的溝通。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們都在做。"],["陳委員俊宇：請他們來配合，假設這種詐騙案如果還是層出不窮，我希望第一類的電信業者也要負連帶的責任。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，所以這是我們目前在做的事情，就是以這樣的方向去處理。"],["陳委員俊宇：對，這樣才能夠有效管制這些電信業者，也能夠保護到民眾、使用者的安全。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：避免詐騙案一直層出不窮的在每一個角落發生。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：以上請NCC應該要加強對相關案子的關心。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳俊宇委員的發言。下一位請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.447218750000001,"end":13.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.51846875,"end":13.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.06596875,"end":19.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.72409375,"end":20.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.22596875,"end":21.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.25971875,"end":21.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.42846875,"end":21.563468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.68159375,"end":31.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.79471875,"end":27.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.59596875,"end":30.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.50284375,"end":34.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.96659375,"end":34.337843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.64159375,"end":45.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.407843750000005,"end":46.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.52159375,"end":49.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.27221875,"end":52.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.32659375,"end":61.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.836593750000006,"end":56.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.30784375,"end":78.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.28034375,"end":78.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.70221875,"end":83.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.69721875,"end":99.18846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.91596875,"end":88.06784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.27034375000001,"end":88.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.77909375,"end":110.41034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.55471875,"end":104.67284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.89221875000001,"end":104.94284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.18659375,"end":126.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.04596875000001,"end":120.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.61034375000001,"end":128.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.90534375000001,"end":133.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPE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謂的MMO就是像三大電信還有他的企業客戶這些相關的所謂的用戶的KYC認識你的用戶的問題"},{"start":198.882,"end":198.902,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":218.644,"end":235.739,"text":"主委我們像現在有一些軟體的APP它的功能其實都有實質在幫助到民眾對於詐騙機這個電話的一個過濾那我也希望說我們不管是我們NCC主動去開發這種軟體或是配合這相關業者來做這個把關"},{"start":240.763,"end":266.638,"text":"假設這個電話號碼經過許多人反映說這是詐騙電話我們應該是要主動出擊讓這個電話不能再使用我們現在很多的那個APP的確有防詐的功能在裡面那當然是說普遍使用的程度就像委員你來自宜蘭我們宜蘭有些鄉親可能或是包括我們中央部他可能對年紀的關係他對那個數位的使用比較沒有那麼習慣這個部分我們都會加強防"},{"start":267.358,"end":284.823,"text":"那個所謂的宣導而且我們也會要求這些電信業者予以必要的協助去降低這些所謂受詐的這個機會我希望是要落實管理我們希望電信業者應該要對於這個詐騙案的重視啊當然不是因為不能說你因為你在賺錢這個過程都不要去查假設發現到詐騙電話應該電信業者"},{"start":289.684,"end":312.944,"text":"對﹗對﹗對"},{"start":312.984,"end":335.81,"text":"我希望這個第一類的電信業者也要負連帶的這個責任對,所以我們目前在做的相關事情方向就是這樣去處理這樣子才能夠有效來管制到這些電信業者也能夠保護到民眾這個使用者的一個安全避免這個詐騙案一直層出不窮的在所有的這個每一個角落這樣發生以上我請我們NCC應該要這個加強來對這個"},{"start":339.611,"end":342.858,"text":"相關這個案子的一個關心好 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談到了降低多少匯率"},{"start":197.329,"end":198.93,"text":"打炸國家隊越打越炸現在炸氣氛已經是從台灣輸出到全世界"},{"start":226.131,"end":248.747,"text":"臺灣輸出到全世界這是另類的臺灣奇蹟臺灣的詐騙集團是舉世聞名我想本席不曉得您是不是州處但是你絕對是大集團的議員本席要再請教你一下這個蠻好奇的行政院去年通過一個"},{"start":253.385,"end":279.295,"text":"新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版役注13億元給打詐國家隊請問國家隊的議員現在有效果嗎我們至少就我們NCC的部分對於所謂的境外的來話的攔阻跟所謂的警示光去年到今年降低了到85%增加了33%"},{"start":283.82,"end":284.841,"text":"今天教育委員會已經要成立了"},{"start":293.936,"end":321.446,"text":"本席會調查你所有一切貪賭的行為然後呢我們會本席會跟你長相左右本席還希望您真的是周楚不是周楚然後呢第一害叫民進黨第二害叫柯建民第三害叫陳耀祥這三害啊能夠早點除掉的話台灣會更好同不同意不可能同意這個慕志明上可以寫你不同意好不好"},{"start":322.692,"end":325.16,"text":"委員不要隨便給他講慕志明了好 謝謝我們總召"}]}},{"id":"149700","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149700","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300e1fee34acd5a60e87e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a607af2ac88c6a759f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:10:20 - 12:18:02","影片長度":"00:07:42","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":462,"end_time":"2024-03-11T12:18:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T12:10:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1420,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時10分）主席謝謝。麻煩請陳耀祥主委。"],["主席：好，主委請。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：陳主委，兩個議題跟你討論，你今天的業務報告第16頁裡面特別有強調加強抽驗無線機上盒，也就是我們比較俗稱的不管什麼安卓盒子、安博盒子等等嘛！對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：到目前為止，到底市面上有沒有所謂NCC認證的這一些電視機上盒？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：安博盒子、安卓盒子，那是所謂的什麼……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：機上盒這個部分一定要有送我們審驗才是合法的機上盒。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：剛剛委員所瞭解的像安博或是這種類似功能當然都會有，如果是合法都要經過我們審驗。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但是現在網路上，我隨便在拍賣網站上面查，都還是可以查得到什麼越域破解版、什麼最新升級、有發票、有保固、豪華越域版，這一些算是合法還非法？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告一下，我們有個OTT平臺就是這樣，有些東西是我們處理、我們負責那個型式驗證，剛剛委員所關心的這個部分是侵權的問題，就是侵害著作權的問題，我們有請所謂相關檢調還有警察去處理這個議題。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，到目前有沒有主動地查緝或是主動地瞭解有多少件？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有、有、有，我們有請我們區處到實地的通路或者是網路通路去查這些相關的……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們主動查緝有多少件？因為本席會認為這一件事其實從過去到現在，我們一而再再而三在討論……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們不斷地在查，我請我們區處……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是到目前為止，你只要上拍賣網站都還是可以查到，甚至不用任何的技巧、不用任何的關鍵字啊！你就打入「第10代、第9代、第11代豪華越域版」，而且本席就覺得說感覺是向公權力挑戰啦！「越域破解版馬上可看」，甚至上面還有講什麼？還有講說這是NCC認證啦！但是本席一查，用那個型號丟進你們的網站上面一查，抱歉，它出現是什麼？它出現是「本驗證證明已經廢止」，換言之什麼？換言之，業者它就是用似是而非的一個序號，好像讓大家以為是NCC認證、官方掛保證，但實際上不是啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以這是犯罪行為啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：那這樣子為什麼會在21世紀的臺灣，我們現在隨便搜尋都還可以搜尋得到？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我請處長跟委員報告一下好不好……"],["洪委員孟楷：是行政單位沒有執法嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，我們一直在執法當中。"],["蔡處長國棟：委員，跟您報告一下，我們這個安博盒子會認證是因為射頻器材，的確是有射頻器材在網路上販售，每年會被檢舉的陳情案件大概兩萬八千多件，我們有跟數位部洽電商平臺，去幫我們注意一下像委員剛才提到的，它標示的內容如果是我們已經廢止的或者是它根本沒有標示認證，我們也請他去……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席想請教到目前為止，本席上來之前都還可以查詢得到、輕易可以搜尋得到，那是哪一個單位？就變成是我們行政單位應作為不作為。"],["蔡處長國棟：我們都一直在跟電商平臺，特別是有特定的電商平臺，我們其實前幾天還發文去把一些犯規的這個情形，比較嚴重的……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以是電商平臺不理你們？不理NCC？"],["蔡處長國棟：因為目前這個電商……"],["洪委員孟楷：等一下，本席搜尋得到是事實，這些事件持續的不斷發生也是事實……"],["蔡處長國棟：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：過去到現在交通委員會一而再再而三強調，這樣子侵犯著作財產權、侵犯閱聽大眾以及內容產生者的權利也是事實，那本席想問到底環節出了什麼問題？"],["蔡處長國棟：跟委員報告，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：要人給人、要錢給錢，你們一直強調說這個跨部會通盤檢討合作，但是重點就是層出不窮啊！"],["蔡處長國棟：我們也是一直跟數位部，數位部也是幫我們跟電商平臺去做……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在這到底是NCC的責任還是數位部的責任？還是又要再甩鍋？"],["蔡處長國棟：沒有、沒有，電商……"],["洪委員孟楷：交通委員會就是你說數位部，數位部以後就說NCC，NCC又說可能是警政署。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，跟委員報告，這本來就是共同努力……"],["洪委員孟楷：誰的責任？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們都有，共同都有。"],["蔡處長國棟：我們甚至也到市場上實體店面去找，網路我們都定期叫同仁上去看，所以處理這個案件……"],["洪委員孟楷：不要讓本席覺得說我們隨便搜尋都比你們說有編列預算、有專責人員來得有用、有效。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好……"],["洪委員孟楷：來，主委，你的任期到7月31號嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：這件事情我可不可以請教，7月31號以前我們還會在這一些拍賣平臺上面看到這些違法的事情嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們會努力去掃蕩，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有辦法保證？有沒有辦法能夠行行好，幫忙國人、幫忙這一些我們內容產生者？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們一定努力去……"],["洪委員孟楷：你努力了多久的時間了？你過去有多少時間努力？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這本來就是不斷發生的事情，我們也不斷的去處理，這部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，最近有一個很紅的國片叫做「周處除三害」。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席最後1分鐘要把「周處除三害」這一句話送給你，因為在過去你擔任NCC主委任內，確實已經讓國人對NCC很不信任，如果有民意調查或是不信任指數的話，我想NCC會是排在前三名，甚至第一名，因為偏頗。所以最後這兩、三個月的時間，很多的委員剛才已經質詢了，包括中天新聞臺連15敗，你說還在上訴……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，它沒有連15敗的問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：你不承認這個是敗訴，你還在上訴，沒關係，但是從過去前任主委1年只有編列150萬的法律訴訟費用，到你上任之後每年編列600萬、700萬，去年編列1,300萬，今年編列685萬，重點就是NCC的訴訟層出不窮。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有層出不窮的問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以本席最後，「周處除三害」第一害，把國人過去NCC侵犯新聞自由、言論自由的害給解決回來；第二害，用一樣的標準去檢視所有的新聞臺；以及第三害，你最後還有時間喔！我覺得你應該要好好的跟國人說明清楚到底過去是誰授意、誰指使要你關掉中天新聞臺？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：第一個，我不是周處……"],["洪委員孟楷：可以跟國人說明清楚，「周處除三害」最重要就是貴在他到最後良心發現，認清自己是罪魁禍首，認清自己是傷害臺灣新聞自由、言論自由的人。如果說你沒有這個自知的話，本席會認為你卸任之後不是事情的結束，有可能還會再跑法院，現在不講清楚，到時候法院一樣會見到……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們就是依法去處理……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是本席給你的忠告。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝委員的忠告。"],["洪委員孟楷：「周處除三害」請你好好的記在心裡。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我個人不是周處，我們也是依法去處理這個事情，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：能夠除三害的時候，好好利用這個時間啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們就不是周處，怎麼會有除三害的問題？"],["主席：那誰是周處？誰是三害啊？你們兩個啊？好啦！謝謝。三害來了，你看。","請傅崐萁總召發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.64221875,"end":6.105968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.332843750000002,"end":15.539093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.16346875,"end":26.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.816593750000003,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.10721875,"end":25.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.06909375,"end":26.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.11971875,"end":26.136593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.47409375,"end":32.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.173468750000005,"end":33.612218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.612218750000004,"end":33.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.67971875,"end":33.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主委有說我們這個選務機構整個選務的辦理在國際上是有名的可是"},{"start":259.349,"end":259.87,"text":"領票數跟總投票數不符"},{"start":269.736,"end":288.828,"text":"還有沒有依照開票前就公告這個領票數還有整票再唱票沒有依照規定去主張去唱票的還有投開票的時候那報告報告表填寫疏漏或者幾乎不值連最離譜第6項了還有炮灰的底部竟然都沒有條封這有驚討過嗎?要怎麼報告人?"},{"start":291.214,"end":294.978,"text":"第一點就感謝整團有收集了大概28個個案分成6種行為太陽送給我們我們對於每一個個案都要求地方選委會一定要認真去調查調查結果再送給我們"},{"start":307.93,"end":318.299,"text":"那大概有4個案子可能跟事實有一點出乎擔心這6種太陽的確是存在的啦所以這點我感謝各位黨團給我們的機構那我們針對這些選務的缺失都會虛心的檢討去提出精進的這個方案來希望這個選務的缺失能夠盡可能的不要發生我不敢說百分之百因為幾乎沒那麼大"},{"start":336.514,"end":364.946,"text":"就是說我們有24萬的這個選務工作人員雖然我們一再的強調透過這個教育訓練透過加強這個選務的主任管理員他們的責任但是很遺憾的還是會有一些個案發生這個辛苦數字是很高這個我們是肯定的我知道就是說這可能是比較少數這算是小吃這真的是一直都是我們選務上一個痛所以我現在就拜託你說你速度可能還是要快一點點"},{"start":365.666,"end":365.786,"text":"謝謝張啓楷委員的資訊"}]}},{"id":"149697","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149697","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300e64f16a529d81d477e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a605ff796f0744bca55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:59:48 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12:10:11","影片長度":"00:10:23","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":623,"end_time":"2024-03-11T12:10:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T11:59:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1287,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時59分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請陳主委。"],["主席：主委請。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委，你在今天的施政報告第17頁當中提到要「提升本國自製節目能量、挹注資源活水，活絡電視產業發展」這裡面包括我們本土自製節目頻道商的內容產業，是不是？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來看一下，這個頻道商就是在我們的第四臺，你也知道我過去在地方政府任職期間也審查過有線電視，就是MSO的費率，目前我們五十幾家系統業者，大概分成四大、五大集團，凱擘、台固、中嘉、台數等等，最近這些MSO的業者紛紛叫苦，說過去我們的收視戶有520萬，現在降到剩451萬，你覺得對於本國的產業是不是一個很嚴重的威脅？大家都不看有線電視了，都去看國外訂的、手機的播送，你覺得呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們系統業者通路的用戶的確在減少。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你們怎麼知道450萬戶這個數字的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這450萬戶，我們每年都有統計數字。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們的統計是系統跟你報的，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為你也參加費率的審查嘛。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：費率的審查你們會去看它的財報嘛。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：財報會說它有多少用戶，就像台電知道它有多少用戶，台水會知道它有多少用戶，是不是這樣？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以用戶數是透明的，是不是它陳報出來的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那它收了多少錢也知道，花了多少錢在哪裡，也都知道。好，現在我們來看一下MSO，我這邊看到一個說法是，他們目前的收費假設是510的話，版權費大概占了240，系統大概270，對於這樣的數字，你認為是不是差不多接近市場現況？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個就是我們傳統所講的240俱樂部，臺灣這30年來大概都是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，這是事實，那我們來看一下，MSO商收了錢，它跟誰收錢？它跟用戶收錢，收了錢之後它付給誰？它付給頻道商，對不對？權利金。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：頻道商除了這個授權費用的收入，它也收了廣告費，是不是這樣子？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以頻道商的收入──廣告費跟版權費，主要的這些頻道商，緯來、東森、八大、TVBS、非凡等等，因為你們都會要它做年度報告，所以他們這些權利金的收入、廣告費的收入你也知道，有沒有報告？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：應該有一些是在他們財報裡面，但是不會是很細節的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是一個總total大概知道，你們定期審查頻道商的公共性，所以知道權利金跟廣告收費大概的數字，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：嗯，大概可以統計出來。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我請教一下，最近的報導，這個數字有點怪怪的，剛剛出現的是451萬戶，他們陳報給你的，但是我們看到一個新聞，Disney有5個頻道，它每個月收取22塊，1年可以收取7.4億，我把它的授權費倒推回去，Disney是不是絕大部分的用戶家裡都會有的頻道？在它撤出之前。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，它算是一個強勢頻道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以它這個戶數就等於是全國的用戶，每個系統都有嘛。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是，跟委員報告一下……"],["鍾委員佳濱：少數沒有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他們頻道授權有時候還會有打折的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：打折我不管，我是說它呈現出來的戶數是280萬戶，你們目前有沒有審查到頻道商的數字？我聽到一個數字是282萬加減3萬，大概就是目前這些全國都有的必選臺，我打開哪一個系統都有，像新聞臺這些，大概是在這個數字上下，你們有沒有掌握這個數字？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們掌握的是有線電視451萬的那個數字。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，是你們在審，我剛剛問過你了，往前跳，你忘了嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我才問說你們去審查它的頻道收入，你不是知道它的廣告費、它的版權費嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：請我們的平臺事務管理處跟委員報告一下，好不好？"],["鍾委員佳濱：簡單、快點好不好？時間有限。"],["詹處長懿廉：我們這邊有線電視系統業者來陳報的是他們的訂戶數，委員您剛剛講到的那個部分是基本頻道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：頻道商的收入、版權收入，有沒有出現剛剛這個280萬戶的數字？有沒有？老實說有沒有？你們完全不知道這個數字。"],["詹處長懿廉：我們就系統這個部分是沒有。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們沒有這個數字。"],["詹處長懿廉：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們沒有數字？OK，如果查出這個數字，恐怕你們在國會上的備詢就要說明一下，但是這個280萬戶跟451萬戶，我從Disney來核算，現在有一個情況，閱聽大眾每個月平均大概付525元，1年大概6,500元，加起來1年大概290億，但是頻道商收了多少錢呢？280萬戶它能收多少錢，你們有沒有掌握？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：280萬戶來講的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：它收了多少錢？這些主要頻道收了多少錢？從280萬戶收了多少錢，在他們的版權費收入？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：1戶240元，依照它那個頻率去估算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：MSO付了多少錢給系統業者買他們的授權？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個因為是屬於他們商業的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有啊，總total不是說頻道商有版權費收入，你手上的加一加有多少錢？你們每年在審嘛，你們知道這些頻道商的版權收入啊。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告，我們只有審離島三家而已，其他的部分都是地方政府的資料。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那地方政府有沒有？會不會有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：地方政府應該也不會說它有授權，有多少資料，我想委員你……"],["鍾委員佳濱：頻道商只有跟你陳報離島三家嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們審的部分只有這三家啦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那電視頻道、有線電視頻道沒有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：但是授權的，跟委員報告……"],["鍾委員佳濱：它收到的授權金是多少錢你不知道？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告，基本上，頻道商都是透過頻道代理商的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，下面我就要提到這個重點了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以我們沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在頻道代理商大概有這幾家，凱擘、佳訊、全國（中嘉），現在如果我們是審MSO的費率，我大概知道它付了多少權利金給頻道代理商，這個會知道對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，這個會知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是這個頻道代理商付了多少錢給頻道，我們要從頻道端來查。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：頻道端能不能知道他們付了多少、收了多少版權收入，知不知道？你們這裡有沒有辦法查？頻道端收到多少？收到多少廣告費？收到多少版權收入？能不能查得到？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上，除非有什麼樣特別的案子，不然我們不會去查……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那目前你們手上有沒有什麼特別的案子，你們掌握了它收到的版權費，有沒有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，目前沒有，版權的收費部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：廣告收入有沒有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：廣告收入應該會有一些，但不是完整的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道，不管是不是每一家，你們目前有沒有頻道的資料，你們收到了它的版權收入或者廣告收入，你們手上有這個數字嗎？有沒有？"],["林處長慧玲：廣告收入有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：版權收入呢？"],["林處長慧玲：版權收入……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們沒有辦法拿到？"],["林處長慧玲：對，廣告收入有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：確定？"],["林處長慧玲：廣告收入有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那版權收入呢？"],["林處長慧玲：版權我們要再確認一下，我目前手邊的資料……"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委，如果你們拿到了廣告收入，為什麼拿不到版權收入？不是很好查嗎？它的財報啊！它從哪裡收的，收入多少錢，所收的廣告費用有沒有揭露？有嘛，財報會揭露嘛。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那版權收入怎麼不會揭露？你回去查一下，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，我們回去查清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：會查清楚喔？好。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：它可能是包在營業收入裡面，它沒有細目。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，那我現在就要請你查了，因為這裡面顯然有很大的落差，這邊說它在全國有451萬戶，總total付的錢，但是這個頻道商收到這個頻道代理商的錢，收到的版權收入大概只有280萬戶。","最後的結論，所以我是說為了避免民眾超繳第四臺的費用，請你們調查版權中心，就是頻道代理商的股權結構到底是誰成立的，據我所知，我上次有問過，因為它很多都是這四大集團、五大集團成立的代理商，因此你們可以查得到它付多少錢給自己設立的版權中心，但是版權中心付了多少錢給頻道去買他們的節目，這個你們要查，可不可以？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我認為這個可能要有法律的授權，這個部分來講的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們不是手頭上就有了嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：但是那個財報沒有辦法詳細到版權……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個要有法律的授權你才看得到嗎？請問要哪個法授權你們才看得到？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就是我們的有線電視……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們現在去看系統業者MSO的財報，我就看過啊！裡面也寫得很清楚啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，但是那只是一個營業的總收入，total的部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，如果是MSO的財報，這些都看得到，但是只看得到它付了多少錢給版權代理中心，至於版權中心付了多少錢給頻道商，要從頻道商來看。我建議你……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：版權中心……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為我過去在財委會，這些頻道商如果是上市上櫃公司，這個通通都看得到，你們要不要去查？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果是上市上櫃公司當然可以查得到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你們要不要查？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果有需要我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：可不可以幫我們查一下？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：幫我們統計一下，目前這些頻道商、頻道業者、內容業者收了多少。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：但是，跟委員報告，他們大部分都不是上市上櫃公司。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實大概都要會計師簽核了啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：要公開發行了，他們倒不是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請你們在3個月內提供你們掌握得到的這些內容業者，每年從頻道的版權中心收到多少收益，我們才能確定你第17頁講的，去挹注資源活水，活絡電視產業嘛。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們是內容生產者嘛。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們最主要補助的是在所謂的地方頻道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我不是要你補助，我是說它可以從我們收視戶付的錢當中拿到多少去做節目，你覺得這個重不重要？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，這當然很重要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很重要，那請你3個月內提出幾個……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我再重複一次，目前這些頻道商收取費用的版權中心是誰組成的，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：可以，我們再……"],["鍾委員佳濱：第二個，他們頻道商到底從這些版權中心收到了多少授權費用，它才能夠拿來做節目，這些錢是誰付的，你知道嗎？是收視戶付的，收視戶負擔多少錢？535元當中，其中的210元系統業者付給了版權中心，版權中心再付給頻道商，頻道商如果到最後只收不到100億、收不到50億，你覺得我們會有好的收視品質嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個我們當然要增加……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請你3個月提供書面，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：我肚子餓了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒關係，你還有戰備存量。"],["主席：謝謝佳濱委員。","下一位請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.43096875,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.906593750000003,"end":13.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.36221875,"end":13.379093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.825343750000002,"end":19.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.84221875,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.73471875,"end":32.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.98784375,"end":33.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.31846875,"end":65.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.36659375,"end":68.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":68.83034375,"end":68.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.31971875,"end":69.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":69.33659375,"end":70.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":70.55159375000001,"end":75.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.65221875,"end":76.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":76.64346875000001,"end":79.20846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.70221875,"end":97.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":80.40659375,"end":81.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":83.34284375,"end":83.84909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":84.86159375000001,"end":85.53659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.53659375000001,"end":85.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.05971875,"end":86.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":86.78534375000001,"end":87.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.15659375,"end":87.22409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.87346875,"end":90.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.03346875000001,"end":92.23596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.23596875000001,"end":93.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.77159375000001,"end":93.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.09159375,"end":100.23471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.40346875,"end":115.08471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":115.13534375,"end":120.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.86909375,"end":119.86034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.04596875000001,"end":124.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.73721875000001,"end":130.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":130.84596875,"end":131.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.13284375,"end":132.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.83721875,"end":149.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":137.02221875,"end":137.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.03909375,"end":137.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.07284375,"end":137.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.79284375,"end":146.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":146.80971875,"end":146.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":147.09659375,"end":147.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.70784375000002,"end":151.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":152.12534375,"end":155.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.41596875000002,"end":163.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":163.14471875,"end":163.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.46534375000002,"end":171.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.17721875,"end":173.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.10096875000002,"end":181.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.51721875,"end":182.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.79971875,"end":187.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.56284375,"end":188.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":187.91721875000002,"end":189.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.62596875,"end":191.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.950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主委您在今天的試問報告當中的第17頁提到說提升本國自製節目的能量益助資源活水 活絡電視產業發展這裡面包括我們本土自製的頻道商的內容產業 對不對是好 那我們來看一下 這個頻道商呢他就是在我們的第4台那過去你也知道我過去在地方總任任職期間也審查過"},{"start":41.195,"end":62.637,"text":"有限電視就是MSO的費率那目前我們不管大概五十幾家系統業者大概分成四大、五大集團嘛凱波、台股、中佳、台塑等等等那最近的這些業者啊MSO的業者紛紛叫苦啊說過去呢我們的收視戶啊有520萬降到現在剩451萬你覺得對於我們的本國的產業是不是一個很嚴重的威脅"},{"start":63.157,"end":90.375,"text":"大家都不用不定看不看有些件事了都去看國外定的手機的播送了你覺得呢這個應該是說我們系統業者這邊來講這個通路的確那個用戶在減少那你們怎麼知道這個數字450萬戶這450萬戶我們每年都有統計數字你們統計是系統跟你報的對不對那因為你也參加費率的審查嘛是是是費率審查我們看到財報嘛對對財報會說我有多少用戶嘛對就像台電照他有多少用戶台手又照他有用戶是不是這樣是"},{"start":90.615,"end":119.305,"text":"所以用戶這是透明的是不是他承報出來的那他收了多少錢也知道花了多少錢在哪裡都知道好那我們看一下那現在我們來看一下NSO這個往前一頁他說我這邊看到一個說法是說他們目前收費假設是510的話那個版權費大概佔了240那系統呢大概270對於這樣的數字你是不是大概有個類似差不多接近市場的現況這個就是我們傳統所講的二四零俱樂部了OK好那我們來看一下"},{"start":120.325,"end":149.785,"text":"這是事實來MSO商收了錢他跟誰收錢那他跟用戶收錢收了錢之後他付給誰他付給頻道商對不對權利金那頻道商除了這個收權費用的收入他也收了廣告費是不是這樣子所以頻道商的收入廣告費跟版權費因為頻道商主要的這些頻道商偉來東森、八大、TVS、飛凡等等等因為你們都會要他做年度報告所以他們的這些權利金的收入廣告費你也知道"},{"start":150.75,"end":151.133,"text":"有沒有報告?"},{"start":152.53,"end":181.5,"text":"應該有一些是屬於他們財報裡面但是不會很細節的但是有一個總統大概知道所以你們定期審查頻道商的公共信息所以知道權力監管收費的大概的數字對不對好那我請教一下這個最近的近期報導這個數字有點怪怪的剛剛出現是451萬戶他們承包給你的但是我們看到一個新聞的迪士尼他五個頻道他每個月收取22塊一年可以收減7.4億我把它倒推回去他的授權費迪士尼是不是"},{"start":184.096,"end":202.394,"text":"這絕大部分的用戶家裡都會有頻道在他撤出之前所以他這個戶數就等於是全國的用戶嘛每個系統都有嘛少數沒有這個他們頻道授權他們有沒有打有時候還會有打折的問題打折我不管嘛我是說他呈現出來的戶數是280萬戶啦"},{"start":204.696,"end":219.846,"text":"你們目前有沒有審查到頻道上的數字有出現大概我聽到一個數字是282萬加減3萬大概就是目前這些全國都有的必選台的啦我打開哪一個系統都有得起來好像新聞台啦這個大概是在這個數字上下你們有沒有掌握這個數字"},{"start":220.566,"end":238.415,"text":"我們掌握的是有線電視的451萬的那個數目沒有沒有沒有沒有你們在省我剛問過你了嘛往前跳你忘了嗎我才問說你們就新擦拍的頻道收錄你不是知道他的廣告費他的版權費嗎請那個我們有那個平台數跟內容數跟委員報告一下好不好簡單快點好不好時間有限往下看"},{"start":239.216,"end":253.701,"text":"我們這邊業者有些那些系統來呈報的是他們的訂戶數那委員您剛剛頻道上他們的收入版權收入有沒有有沒有有會出現像剛剛這個280萬戶的數字有沒有老實說有沒有你們完全沒有照這個數字我們沒有這個數字"},{"start":255.802,"end":284.671,"text":"你們沒有是不是 OK那這個如果說查出來這個數字恐怕你們在國會上的備詢就要說明一下好但是這個280萬戶跟這個450萬戶我從第10年來核算現在有一個情況喔月聽大眾每個月大概平均付525元加起來呢大概啊是290億一個月一年大概6500一年大概290億但是頻道商收到多少錢呢280萬戶他能收多少錢你們有沒有掌握"},{"start":286.96,"end":288.902,"text":"負給系統業者MSO付了多少錢買他們的授權"},{"start":303.933,"end":304.953,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":325.458,"end":342.206,"text":"頻道商只有跟你懲罰離島三家?我們省的部分只有這三家啦那這電視頻道有限電視用頻道沒有?他收到的授權金都還沒你不知道根委員報告基本上來講頻道商都是透過頻道代理上的問題對好現在我就知道這個重點啦"},{"start":343.846,"end":368.993,"text":"現在頻道代理商大概有這幾家啦 凱波啦 家訓啦 全國啦就是後面是數 鍾佳現在呢我們如果是選MSO的費率我大概知道他付了多少權利金給頻道代理商這會知道 對不對但是這個頻道代理商付了多少錢給頻道呢我們要從頻道端來查頻道端能不能知道他們付了多少收了多少版稅收入 版權收入知不知道你們這裡有沒有辦法查"},{"start":370.289,"end":389.999,"text":"頻道端收到了多少收到多少廣告費收到了多少版權收入能不能查得到因為基本上來除非有特別的什麼樣案子我們不會那你們手上目前有沒有什麼特別案子你們掌握了他收到的版權有沒有有沒有沒有目前沒有版權的收費收費部分廣告收入有沒有"},{"start":391.915,"end":403.058,"text":"廣告收入應該會有一些啦但是不是完整的我知道不管是不是每一家啦你們目前有沒有頻道的部分你們收到了他的版權收入或者廣告收入這個數字在你們手上有沒有"},{"start":404.897,"end":429.634,"text":"有,那版權收入呢?你們沒有辦法拿到?確定?那版權收入呢?來,主委,如果你們拿到了廣告收入,為什麼拿不到版權收入?不是很好查嗎?他的財報啊,他從哪裡收入,收入多少錢,收入到廣告費用,有沒有介入?有嘛,財報會介入嘛,那版權收入怎麼不會介入?你回去查一下好不好?"},{"start":430.649,"end":446.272,"text":"好 我們就回去查去被查清楚了齁好他現在包在一包的營業收入裡面了是 那我現在就要請你查了齁因為這裡面顯然有很大的落差這邊說他只有全國呢他有451萬戶總TOTAL付錢但是呢這個頻道代理商"},{"start":447.633,"end":464.763,"text":"頻道商收到的頻道代理商的錢大概只有280萬戶收到的版權收入來最後的結論所以我是說為了避免民眾操繳第4台的費用請你們調查版權中心就是頻道代理商他的股權結構到底他是誰成立的"},{"start":465.903,"end":482.014,"text":"據我所知我上次有問過因為他很多都是這四大集團五大集團他們成立的代理商那因此呢你們可以查得到他付多少錢給自己設立的版權中心但是版權中心付了多少錢給頻道去買他們的節目這個你們要查可不可以"},{"start":483.835,"end":499.826,"text":"我認為這個是可能要法律的授權這個部分來講的話你們不是手頭上就有了嗎但是那個財報沒有辦法到很細的所謂報告這個要有法律的授權你才看得到嗎請問要出自哪個法你們才看得到你們現在去看系統業者MSO的財報我就看過阿裡面也寫很清楚阿"},{"start":503.709,"end":531.698,"text":"但是那時是一個營業的總收入total的部分沒有 如果是MSO的財報這些都看得到但是只是看得到付了多少錢給版權代理中心但是版權中心付了多少錢給頻道商要從頻道商來看那我建議你是不是因為我過去在財委會這些頻道代理商這個頻道商如果是上市上櫃公司這個通通都看得到你們要不要去查如果是上市上櫃公司當然可以查那你們要不要查那如果有需要可以幫我們查一下"},{"start":532.478,"end":532.658,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":552.646,"end":578.265,"text":"頻道的這個版權中心他收到多少收益那我們才能確定你的第17頁講的你怎麼去益助資源活水活絡電視產業嘛他們是內容生產者嘛我們主要補助那個是在於所謂的我不是要你補助我說他可以從我們收市戶付的錢當中拿到多少去做節目你覺得這重不重要這當然很重要很重要那請你三個月內提出幾個再重出一次喔"},{"start":579.265,"end":599.614,"text":"這些目前這頻道商他收到費用的版權中心是誰組成的可以嗎可以可以第二個他們頻道商到底從這些版權中心收到了多少授權費用他才能夠拿來做節目那這些錢是誰付的你知道嗎是收視庫付的啊收視庫付的那多少錢535元當中其中的210交給了"},{"start":602.915,"end":602.935,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149696","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149696","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430048dc519d756d80e77e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a6513549caf9a0d0ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:51:39 - 11:59:35","影片長度":"00:07:56","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":476,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:59:35+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T11:51:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1181,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時51分）謝謝主席，有請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好，從早上到現在大家對你的評價，其實大家都知道你在主政NCC的這幾年當中，你總共當主委當幾年？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就是從2020年的8月1號到目前，大概三年多吧。"],["賴委員士葆：所以這一任下來就一任4年。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，一任4年。"],["賴委員士葆：大家對你的看法就是你把NCC東廠化。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有啦，委員，我們沒有東廠化。"],["賴委員士葆：你箝制言論自由，你自己講的，沒有百分之百的言論自由，你居然今天講新聞自由。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我沒有箝制任何的言論呀，不是任何的言論都是屬於言論自由啦，我剛剛意思是這樣。"],["賴委員士葆：民主可貴的地方在言論自由。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有錯啊。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你還是堅定沒有言論自由？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然保障言論自由，有啊。"],["賴委員士葆：你還是堅定沒有百分之百的言論自由？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我說有些言論……那你說殺人放火、恐嚇這個算言論自由嗎？這是言論啊，但它不是言論自由保障的言論啊。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你講的不是這個東西，你很清楚的，是媒體的，你關中天到現在為止的15件官司你都輸，請問你都要繼續……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有15件，現在10件當中……沒有15件的問題啦。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你都繼續要上訴嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們贏14件、他們贏2件。"],["賴委員士葆：你不要一直插話，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不好意思，我跟委員回答。"],["賴委員士葆：來，請問你確定都要上訴嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們委員會討論啊。"],["賴委員士葆：要不要上訴我問你嘛，要不要？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：要不要上訴是委員會要討論啊。"],["賴委員士葆：討論完了沒有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：比如說中天的部分我們已經上訴啦。"],["賴委員士葆：上訴幾件？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：你就看那個輸贏的部分嘛，比如說換照案這個部分來講，北高行後來我們上訴了嘛。"],["賴委員士葆：請問上訴花多少錢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：上訴花多少錢就看律師費用。"],["賴委員士葆：不是這樣子，你不要一副很輕蔑的樣子，你不要讓我拍桌子！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有！我們沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你講，你要很嚴謹回答國會議員的問題。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["賴委員士葆：總共花多少錢？你告訴我啊。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員你說……"],["賴委員士葆：北高多少錢？北高那個換照的事情花多少錢？有，資料有。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們律師費用來講的話……"],["賴委員士葆：花多少錢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：你是說中天所有的案件還是單單新聞台？"],["賴委員士葆：全部加起來。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：全部加起來的話是682萬吧。"],["賴委員士葆：全部，這個有編預算嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然有編預算，我們……"],["賴委員士葆：編預算，所以你準備跟人家打官司的！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那個是訴訟費用。"],["賴委員士葆：你就有編這個東西。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：訴訟費用本來就是我們的公務預算。"],["賴委員士葆：預算裡面有嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有啊，公務預算本來就有。"],["賴委員士葆：好，以後我們就全部把它砍掉！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有啦，這個訴訟費用……"],["賴委員士葆：我們全部砍掉！你NCC做出來的決定，你要一言九鼎，哪有說準備給人家告的！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：NCC不是只有監理中天一台，我們監理的東西很多啦。"],["賴委員士葆：不是只有中天一台，但是你做的結果是被人家告，然後你告輸了，準備告輸了跟人家打官司，這個費用要把你刪掉，我跟你講。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有啦，那個訴訟費用本來是尊重人民權利救濟的權利啦，沒有那個……"],["賴委員士葆：你是官員，怎麼叫救濟的權利？你官員要自救，那就不用醫了！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我們要defense、我們要防禦的問題啊，訴訟本來是攻擊、防禦的問題嘛，都一定會編訴訟費用，像重大的案件我們一定會請律師啊。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，一而再，再而三，如果你只輸一件你就不會那麼計較，一而再，再而三你都輸，代表你做的根本不對嘛。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有一而再，再而三的輸，沒有這個問題。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你道地的你可以看啊，加上鏡電視、加上三立入股中嘉的事情，細節我們就不講了。你去年整年度在講的鏡電視，大家都很清楚嘛，你完全的偏鏡電視跟三立，然後對中天就一腳把它踹掉，它做的違反事項就是干預，你講的，原來的什麼報導、什麼問題以及公司治理等這些東西其他第四台也都有出現，然後你專門攻中天！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們標準都一樣啊、標準都一樣，沒有其他的那個……標準都一樣、法規也都一樣，就是這樣處理啦。"],["賴委員士葆：處理結果就不一樣嘛，人都一樣。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為每家的狀況不同嘛。"],["賴委員士葆：來，我再問你喔，你確定7月份要離開這個職位嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是啊。"],["賴委員士葆：如果賴清德找你呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，我學校借調……就是委員所瞭解的，你也是來自大學，我們借調最長就是8年了，我時間到了。"],["賴委員士葆：你8年到了，是不是？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對、對、對。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你不會辭掉就繼續當官？不會？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有、沒有，回去學校、回去學校。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我跟你講，其實讓你做到7月你的任期結束、讓你做好做滿，其實是很不應該的啦，你應該提早結束。","來，我們來看你喔，你可以看喔，你利用所謂的新世代打擊詐欺的策略行動綱領1.5版，你用了第二預備金有1億元的補助給誰呢？中華電信、台灣固網、新世紀，然後全部都是這些五大電信公司，台灣大哥大、遠傳幾乎全部都在裡面，這個另類的……我不知道你抓一個東西然後就補助、錢就亂撒。我就記得那時候、我們在防疫的時候你就編了幾億，我好像把你砍掉，你編了8億，後來討價還價砍了3億，你抓了機會就趕快送錢給電信公司？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個沒有送錢給電信公司的問題。"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼不是呢，就是啊！你是補助單位，你總共補助1億耶！中華電信加起來……你看固網等等。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：電信詐欺本來就是公私協力的問題嘛。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼東西？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我知道，電信詐欺本來就是全民、包括公私協力去處理這個議題啊。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼東西？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：公私協力，政府部門跟企業……"],["賴委員士葆：你為什麼可以用第二預備金？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那我們……"],["賴委員士葆：第二預備金的使用條件很嚴謹的，這個不通啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們本來沒有這個預算，但是打詐目前成為國家最重要的政策之一，所以我們當然是申請第二預備金去處理啊。"],["賴委員士葆：可以這樣子用第二預備金喔？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：而且跟委員報告，我們真的是有國際那種攔阻或者是警示，其實真的是……"],["賴委員士葆：績效呢？你績效在哪裡呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們績效報告裡面有啊，886國際來話數是降低啊，甚至已到那個……"],["賴委員士葆：主委呀，我們清楚看得到你不僅僅在這些決定要不要撤照、要不要換照完全是一個政治考量；另一部分，一抓住機會，像原來的建基地台也是一樣，回饋五大電信商一百五十幾億，都很明顯地看到NCC的瀆職現象，有夠明顯……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，這是……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要回答，我沒有叫你講話，你不要回答、你不要回答！讓我講，因為我的時間到了，我要結束我的質詢就是，NCC可以看得到它的判斷完全政治考量，它在用錢的部分想盡辦法找了名目就補助給五大電信商，防疫的時候補助幾億，對外宣稱他們都是免費的，結果不是欸，結果都是你買單，清清楚楚看得到。","我建議主委，你在立委質詢時不要手交叉在胸前。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不好意思。"],["賴委員士葆：非常敵意、這非常有敵意喔，不能這樣子。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：國會殿堂是多麼嚴肅的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，不好意思。"],["賴委員士葆：請你仔細聽喔。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好。"],["賴委員士葆：我時間到就不講了，我就是最後一句話告訴你，不能夠你的判斷都是政治判斷，然後抓住機會就補助、送錢給財團，人民不能接受。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，這個都是法定預算經過大會的審議啦，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝賴士葆委員的發言。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.207218750000001,"end":9.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.20659375,"end":11.57346875},{"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束了讓你做好做滿了其實是很不應該的啊你應該提早結束啊然後我們的看你啊"},{"start":289.568,"end":307.259,"text":"你可以看喔你利用所謂的新世代打擊詐欺的策略行動綱領1.5版你用了地澳與北京有1億元的補助給誰呢中華電信、台灣過往、新世紀然後"},{"start":308.28,"end":315.786,"text":"全部都是這些五大電信公司他們大哥大永傳幾乎全部都在裡面這個鏈內的我不知道你抓一個東西"},{"start":323.888,"end":323.928,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":345.623,"end":346.344,"text":"你為什麼可以用第二預備金"},{"start":362.381,"end":390.964,"text":"這個……這個……這個……"},{"start":394.195,"end":412.023,"text":"我們清楚看得到了你不僅僅在這些的決定要不要撤照啦要不要換照啦完全是一個正式考量另一部分一抓住機會像原來的建基地台也是一樣這個回饋啊回饋這個五大電信商150幾億"},{"start":413.664,"end":431.176,"text":"都是很明顯的看到他NCC的堵制現象也有夠明顯你不要回答我我明顯講話你不要回答你不要回答齁讓我講因為我時間到了齁我要結束我的我的質詢就是NCC可以看得到他的判斷完全正式考量"},{"start":431.716,"end":455.784,"text":"他在用錢的部分想盡辦法找人名目就補助給這個五大電信商防疫的時候補助幾億這個時候啊都要宣稱齁他們都是免費的結果不是欸結果都是你買單千千就不看得到這個我建議呢主委你對立委執行不要手插在前面非常敵意非常敵意喔不能這樣子國會電台是多麼嚴肅的請你仔細聽喔"},{"start":459.045,"end":459.826,"text":"賴士葆委員"}]}},{"id":"149695","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149695","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43003f016d0c271d72a77e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a65eaf658b2cb262835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:41:59 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11:51:31","影片長度":"00:09:32","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":572,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:51:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T11:41:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1122,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時42分）謝謝主席。有請陳主委。"],["主席：好，主委請。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：陳主委，剛剛早上我們在成立調閱小組時聽到你一席話，我覺得認識你到現在，我們終於有共識了，就是政治干預這四個字出來了，確實，這幾年我發現NCC很強烈地政治操弄、干預，不是立法委員干預。你知道我們為什麼成立調閱小組？這個遲到了半年到1年的調閱小組終於成立了，原因是什麼？你今天提供我們什麼報告？半年你正式提供1次報告……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，我們向大院報告過5次了，相關資料……"],["魯委員明哲：我說你的業務報告，年度大會的時候你跟我們委員會提那個報告……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是、不是，上年度就針對鏡電視有5次，還有包括調查報告……"],["魯委員明哲：好啦，簡單來說大家要關心的事項，你在裡面幾乎沒有什麼提，在你的回答，坦白講我從第1個聽到剛剛第12、13個，你的回答將近兩年都避重就輕……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有避重就輕，事實上就是如此。"],["魯委員明哲：所以我覺得如果你真的有政治干預的話，你想想看10年前的陳耀祥是什麼概念？你經過自由時報採訪時，我跟你認識，第2次我就把這句話拿出來請教你，今天非常可能是你這會期的畢業會期，你說了什麼話？我們臺灣形式上是民主社會，但實際上黨國體制的幽靈是蠢蠢欲動，一有機會就跑出來危害整個民主社會，最可怕的是，黨國意識形態透過教育也就是108課綱以及媒體不斷地複製，就像河水一樣，如果一直加入有毒物質就會一直擴散，這是一種思想的污染，你這句話是我第二個認同你的。我發覺坦白講這幾年我們看到的就是這樣啊，如果你到這個會期就結束了，我真的覺得你好好去想想你說了什麼話。","既然你當主委，有兩個代表作，第一個是中天撤照，這是你第一個代表作……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不予換照，不是，我們沒有撤照。"],["魯委員明哲：不予換照……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這兩個在法律上不一樣。"],["魯委員明哲：反正中天不予換照、撤照記者會，你們在記者會時說什麼？你保證沒有政治力介入……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是啊。"],["魯委員明哲：7位鑑定人想法一致，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["魯委員明哲：這是你的說法。","（播放影片）"],["魯委員明哲：好，你不知道什麼是綠營的背景，但是有一種藥物叫做時間，時間可以證明很多東西，當時7位你不知道他有什麼綠營背景的人，這是前3位，第1位是在去年擔任民進黨中央黨部，去年、前年的仲裁委員；第2位、第3位平步青雲、戰功顯赫，已經變成民進黨不分區的立委，是我們這一屆的同事。所以我覺得這個國家的NCC交給你，你好像一個小白兔一樣，已經這麼明顯了，你還可以眼睛瞪很直，在那邊鬼扯；另外4位當然有深綠的，有一位是華視、公視的董事，誰派的大家心知肚明，另外一位是第一證券的獨立董事。所以你說的這個話，你的第一個代表作，這7位所謂聽證的鑑定人在你的眼中是非常中立的，沒有藍綠的背景，是還是不是？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是啊！"],["魯委員明哲：到現在還是嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：但是他到目前為止沒有那個啊。"],["魯委員明哲：好。就是兩位已經變成民進黨立委了，哇！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們怎麼知道他們兩位現在會變成民進黨的不分區，不知道啊。"],["魯委員明哲：我們的調閱小組成立得太重要了，因為你從頭鬼扯到尾嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有鬼扯……"],["魯委員明哲：這就是中天的情況。","再來看看，對於深藍、深綠你怎麼處理，你一直講你獨立、你一直講你中立……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是啊。"],["魯委員明哲：你一直講你公正，但這要展現在你所有的行政處分跟態度上面，三立中嘉案，你現在的處理，我憑良心講，輿論不滿意的非常、非常多，對於三立中嘉案的處分是限期改正，對不對？鏡電視我整整跟你講了一年，所有的交通委員跟你講了一整年，結果他在選舉前開政論節目，你們叫限期改正，不要鬧笑話好不好？選舉都結束了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：警告啦，不是限期改正。這個本來法律就是規定這樣，我們只能這樣去處理啊。"],["魯委員明哲：不是，那沒人在鳥你NCC啊，你沒有覺得很痛苦嗎？我要是你，我都覺得很痛苦，你知道嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以委員，這就是為什麼我們要修改廣電三法。"],["魯委員明哲：你做的負擔處分，人家不理你，你做的所有附加條款，它違反這麼多，你也弄不了它，所以很多問題都是這樣。","我今天想再請教你，做個結論，看看你對中天、三立、鏡電視的態度的差別，這也當作你畢業的幾大傑作，你們NCC103次委員會第3案就討論到中嘉三立這個案子，其中是不是有兩位委員提供了不同意的意見書？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["魯委員明哲：有沒有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有啊，我們委員會制本來就是這樣啊，可以提不同意見書。"],["魯委員明哲：所以你很怕立法委員干預你們委員的獨立性，結果兩位委員提出這個不同意見，你鳥都不鳥他，你不用干預，你根本不鳥他！我覺得很奇怪，他說了什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是啊！這個照議事規則本來就是這樣處理。"],["魯委員明哲：好，你講，這兩位主要不同意意見的理由在哪裡？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他們認為這個是垂直整合的問題，但問題是我們目前所查到的資料，三立是三立的大股東，而且這個部分來講，到底是業務的投資還是什麼，依照那個比例算起來根本……"],["魯委員明哲：不知道？現在還是不知道是業務的投資還是什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，它的投資比例根本沒有達到所謂垂直整合的問題。"],["魯委員明哲：我的天啊！全國聽NCC，我想不只是主委，下面的這些官員真的也是非常可悲，人家提的有沒有道理？這不是我提的，白紙黑字，這不是我提的，兩位委員的不同意見書……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有錯，這是委員不一致、不同意見的問題，會議制本來就是這樣。"],["魯委員明哲：對，我知道。主要意見是什麼？他講得有道哩，為什麼呢？你不會說一個人騙我們或他不老實，他已經違規、違法了，他做了不能做的事情，只是因為他騙了我3年，我不知道，所以在這3年我本來知道不該給他的，我也給了，你現在事後知道了，你要不要處理？他的意見就是這樣。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然啊，要處理啊。"],["魯委員明哲：107年就開始，三立透過多層次入主中嘉，你們也查了，也違規、違法了，這就不要講了，他的意思是說，到了112年9月立法委員提出檢舉後你才知道這件事情，這兩位委員的意思就是說，不能110年它已經幹了這個事情，然後三立財經移頻通過、110年12月換照通過，然後111年5月、112年7月新聞台換照通過，這個都不算啦！你告訴我們說它下次再換照的時候，它上次就騙我們，你要怎麼處理？這兩位委員……不是我說的喔，兩位委員說這個都要重審，那你們完全沒有參考你所謂獨立委員的意見嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，我們在相關的案子裡面我們本來就要它就這個部分重新說明，沒有錯啊，我們手中還有很多、還有一些三立的案子在處理啊。"],["魯委員明哲：那你這準備重審嗎？移頻要把它移回來嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我們要開委員會再討論嘛，因為這本來就是合議制，不是我一個人可以決定的問題。"],["魯委員明哲：好啦，我跟你講鏡電視，你去年已經浪費我們一整年的時間啦，討論到最後那就乾脆不要討論了！我講真的，我看到你做主委，這不是肝膽忠魂啊，我看到NCC在你極端地帶領之下，我們看到的是不中立、不公平、不獨立，如果要給你四個字，你真的在我面前表現的是綠膽忠魂！這是我個人對你的看法。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我沒有辦法接受這樣的說法啦，謝謝。"],["魯委員明哲：沒事，你就帶著走。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員的發言。","下一位請賴士葆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.3678437500000005,"end":7.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.45596875,"end":8.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.35784375,"end":22.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.85409375,"end":41.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.96534375,"end":42.657218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.45034375,"end":46.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.96034375,"end":58.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.97534375,"end":66.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.81909375,"end":60.612218750000004},{"speaker":"SPE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你的畢業會期齁你說什麼話我們形式上 台灣形式上是民主社會但實際上黨國體制的幽靈是蠢蠢欲動一有機會就跑出來危害整個民主社會最可怕的是黨國意識形態透過教育哇108課綱嗎還媒體不斷的複製就像河水一樣"},{"start":135.882,"end":158.396,"text":"如果一直加入有毒物質就一直擴散這是一種思想的汙染你這句話是我第二個認同你的我發覺坦白講這幾年我們看到的就是這樣啊你自己如果就到這個會期就結束了我真的是覺得你好好去想想你說了什麼話"},{"start":159.909,"end":182.549,"text":"好 既然你當主委嘛 有兩個代表作代表作 第一個是中天撤照這是你第一個代表作不予換照反正中天不予換照撤照記者會你們在記者會都說什麼咧你保證嘛 沒有政治力介入七位鑑定人想法一致 對不對這是你們的說法"},{"start":184.704,"end":187.407,"text":"好,你不知道什麼是綠營的背景啊但是有一種"},{"start":203.592,"end":203.652,"text":"所以．"},{"start":231.474,"end":231.854,"text":"二、華視公視董事"},{"start":251.34,"end":278.934,"text":"所以你說的這個話第一個代表作啊這七位所謂聽證的鑑定人齁就是在你的眼中是非常中立的沒有藍綠的背景是還是不是是啊當下還是嘛到目前為止沒有那個啊好就是兩位已經被民進黨立委了我們怎麼知道他們兩位現在會被民進黨的部分區不知道這個我們這個調皮的小組啊成立的太重要了"},{"start":279.514,"end":284.753,"text":"因為你從頭鬼扯到尾嘛這就是中天的一個情況再來看看"},{"start":286.448,"end":315.497,"text":"對於生難生慮你怎麼處理你一直講獨立嘛你一直講你中立嘛你一直講你公正但是這要展現在你所有的行政的處分跟態度上面三立宗家案你現在的處理我平常講輿論不滿意的非常非常多當然宗家的處分三立齁是限期改正嘛對不對競電事我整整跟你講了一年嘛所有的交通委員跟你講了一整年啊"},{"start":316.517,"end":332.662,"text":"結果他在選舉前開政論節目你們叫限期改正不要鬧笑話選舉都結束了這個本來我們法律就規定這樣子我們只能這樣去處理不是那你NCC沒人在鳥你你沒有覺得很痛苦嗎"},{"start":333.442,"end":354.928,"text":"所以我要是你我都覺得很痛苦你知道嗎你的負擔人家不理你你的所有的負擔條款違反了這麼多你也弄不了它所以很多的問題都這樣的好那我想今天再請教你做個結論看看你對中天、山立、靜電視你的態度的差別這也當作你畢業畢業的幾大傑作這個你們"},{"start":361.335,"end":376.664,"text":"NCC1103次委員會第三案就討論到宗家三立這個案子那其中是不是有兩位委員提供了一部不同意的意見書 有沒有所以你怕 你很怕立法委員去干預你委員的獨立性啊 請問兩位委員"},{"start":386.149,"end":386.689,"text":"他們認為說這個是垂直整合的問題"},{"start":402.338,"end":424.119,"text":"但是問題是說我們目前所查到資料山栗是山栗的大股東而且這個部分來講的話他到底是業務的投資還是什麼這個有沒有依照那個比例算起來不知道現在還是不知道是業務的投資不知道是什麼他的投資的比例根本沒有達到所謂的垂直融合的哇全國聽NCG我想不是主委啦那下面這些的官員啦"},{"start":425.04,"end":428.323,"text":"主要意見是什麼他講得有道理嘛他為什麼呢你不能說一個人騙我們或他不老實"},{"start":444.059,"end":460.489,"text":"他已經違規違法了他做不能做的事情只是因為他騙了我三年我不知道所以在這三年我本來知道不該給他的那我也給了那你現在事後知道了你要不要處理他的意見就這樣109年107年就開始"},{"start":466.465,"end":491.9,"text":"我們三立反正透過多層次入主宗家反正你們也查了嘛也違規違法了嘛這就不要講囉他的意思是說你到了112年9月立法院委員提出檢舉之後你才知道這件事情這兩位委員的意思就是說哎喲他不能110年他已經幹了這個事情然後三立財經移平通過110年12月"},{"start":494.742,"end":513.72,"text":"換照通過然後111年5月112年7月新聞台換照通過這個都不算啦你告訴我們說他下次喔下次再換照的時候他上次就騙我們你要怎麼處理這兩位委員不是我說的喔兩位委員說這個都要重審"},{"start":514.801,"end":542.217,"text":"那你們完全沒有參考你所謂獨立委員的意見嗎我們所以是在實驗在有些相關的案子裡面我們本來就是他這個部分要重新說明沒有錯啊這個案子我們手上還有很多還有一些三例的案子在訴訟那你就準備重審嗎沒有那我們要我們在討論嗎因為這個本來就不是我一個人可以決定的問題好啦我跟你講進電視啊你去年已經浪費我們一整年的時間了後面討論到最後那就乾脆不要討論了齁"},{"start":543.823,"end":543.843,"text":"謝謝魯明"}]}},{"id":"149694","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149694","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300c6b16ec53caf9b8a43c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a621d513256421d2e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:59:13 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剛才其實有很多委員都一直提到不在籍投票的部分但是我們對於不在籍投票其實是有一些擔憂的因為在這一次的選戰後選戰後其實有很多過去我們行之有年的選舉模式但是反而會成為短影音上面不斷傳播說好像哪邊有問題那哪邊有些不信任感"},{"start":46.821,"end":63.118,"text":"所以儘管行之有年的這種傳統投票方式包含開票其實台灣的開票的時間原則上在3個小時4個小時就大概都快要開完了所以這種狀況之下任何的沒有信任度的不在籍投票最你會不會有一些擔心"},{"start":65.134,"end":94.242,"text":"其實台灣的這個選制在國際間的評價是非常高的我剛剛也特別舉例了英國經濟學人周刊在2021年2023年兩次的全世界的這個民主指數的評比我們一次是第8名一次是第10名在亞洲兩次都是第一名其中有一個評比的指標就是選舉的程序我們是拿到10分兩次都拿到10分"},{"start":94.722,"end":116.874,"text":"所以我們的選舉的制度是相當的穩健的需要國際高度的評價但是從歷次的我先講一下我覺得您剛才說的沒錯沒有壞掉的東西就不要再去擅自更動因為這可能會導致性能度的降低所以過去這二三十年來從1996年我們首次民選到現在"},{"start":119.615,"end":134.048,"text":"儘管有幾次是差距非常的小但是基本上我們的選舉都能夠在公平公正的這種狀況而且是透明的狀況之下來去進行那也得到了很多國際上面的肯定所以我還是認為說"},{"start":135.269,"end":164.335,"text":"這種不在一起投票要經過全面性的討論不是只有我們這個立法院而已喔各種的公聽會各種的這種相關的平台都必須要全部展開得到共識之後才來做討論會比較完善一點特別是在中國地區我必須要再強調一下齁在中國地區我國國民在中國地區如果要用通訊投票如果要用電子投票在一個可以隨意干預公民隱私權的國家來做這些事情的話"},{"start":165.015,"end":165.055,"text":"主席"},{"start":183.866,"end":188.367,"text":"報告委員我們絕對不抗拒所謂不再起投票因為他是保障人民的選舉權"},{"start":206.451,"end":225.216,"text":"但是維持一個選舉的穩定這是一個國家民主建設的一個基礎選制的一個重大的變革千萬不要動搖到這個根本所以我們採取比較穩健的次第推動方式等到有共識之後再推行"},{"start":225.856,"end":226.757,"text":"所謂的境外借選"},{"start":242.159,"end":242.199,"text":"選舉資訊混淆"},{"start":259.207,"end":276.065,"text":"在這一次的選舉的時候當然我們看到就是除了是這種攻擊性的文宣這本來就是選戰的一部分再來就是混淆式的文宣看板跟步調這個攻擊性的文宣我認為這是選舉的常態對於你的政策的不同意等等這本來就應該有但是"},{"start":277.306,"end":291.994,"text":"現在我看到在上次的選舉中有一些被選舉人就是這個候選人他自己印製的投票建議單會故意把自己的圖像置入別的政黨的圖像意圖混淆你認為這樣合適嗎"},{"start":294.258,"end":300.32,"text":"有許多的政黨的候選人他是無政黨的推薦就是沒有政黨推薦那他會故意把他弄為A 比方說他是A大黨跟B大黨的這個黨首黨首就是黨的主席"},{"start":316.146,"end":316.426,"text":"：陳冠廷"},{"start":345.18,"end":351.51,"text":"是通案那特別是許多不具政黨推薦的無黨籍候選人有常常這樣的狀況出現"},{"start":353.308,"end":378.129,"text":"那當然我們遇到這樣的問題的話許多人會選就立刻來反映給選委會那選委會說那通知拆除但是問題是等你拆除完的時候選舉已經結束這樣的問題要怎麼處理我想這個相關的行政的規範形式的這個處罰法治上應該都沒有問題所以如果有違反相關規定的話我們在接受到這個檢舉的時候我們就會立即來處理"},{"start":378.669,"end":378.789,"text":"主席"},{"start":395.012,"end":421.292,"text":"不是7天內處理不是3天內處理24小時還是幾個時限必須要給我們一個更清楚的一個方案我必須要再強調它是全面性的混淆不是單一選舉區是數個選舉區這是一個非常嚴肅的問題境外勢力也可以透過這樣的方式來去混淆我們的支持者要違反他們意圖的投票混淆戰是非常重要的這個我希望主委能夠提出相關的檢討再次感謝"},{"start":421.812,"end":421.932,"text":"陳冠廷"}]}},{"id":"149693","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149693","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300f993e8d781c3252843c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a61ebfeb97457f9b415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:52:02 - 11:58:57","影片長度":"00:06:55","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-5"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":415,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:58:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T11:52:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":967,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時52分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委午安，辛苦了！今年選舉時發生一些事情，主委剛剛說相關的案例也在整理了，跟主委再次確定，1月13號投票當天有部分的家長帶6歲以下的小孩進入投票所，被一些工作人員、選務人員還有駐警拒絕，這個事件有非常、非常多的案例，目前我們收到的案例，在之前的記者會是說17個，可是我們相信絕對遠超過這17個，對於相關的辦法，不知道主委您知不知道類似的新聞事件？"],["李主任委員進勇：首先，我必須說明，是有這方面的檢舉，但是並沒有那麼多，我們每個案子都要進行調查，事實上跟事實有一些出入，但是不管怎麼樣……"],["陳委員培瑜：確實是有。"],["李主任委員進勇：一個個案都不可以、有一個個案都不可以，這個我們會一再地……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，太好了，看起來主委對於相關的法規跟支持是非常明確的，你說一個都不可以。"],["李主任委員進勇：那是應該的，我們會加強教育訓練，同時加強要求。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，在兒童及少年福利與權益保障法還有公職人員選舉罷免法裡面確實都有相關規定。但是主委剛剛也說了，相關的教育訓練是不是不足？我們來陪您確認一下。這張投影片是中選會2022年在臉書粉絲專頁上特別做的非常可愛的圖卡，而且裡面還包含性別平等的味道，不知道主委有沒有看出來？這個圖卡上刻意畫一個爸爸帶一個6歲小孩一起進入投票所，這個臉書的宣傳是在2022年，可是我們看到今年1月13日大選的時候都還有類似的事情發生。主委您覺得除了相關教育訓練的不足，到底我們還可以做哪些事情？希望後續的選舉不要再發生類似的事情，主委您的看法是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：不管怎麼樣，這是對於選務作業沒有完全掌握跟瞭解，這個我們必須要檢討。"],["陳委員培瑜：各地方這麼多的選務投開票所，到底要怎樣落實相關教育訓練？在下一次大選之前，其實我們還有一些時間，我們有將近2年的時間，主委您有什麼規劃跟看法？"],["李主任委員進勇：第一個是不斷透過教育訓練來加強大家的印象，這是第一個。第二個，我們會加強主任管理員對於選舉投開票所的管理，他必須要盡到責任去提醒、糾正，現場一發現必須要馬上禁止、糾正。第三個，對於再犯的，這實在是很不應該，我們獎懲……"],["陳委員培瑜：所謂的再犯指的是？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們會有獎懲辦法。"],["陳委員培瑜：所謂再犯者是同一個選務人員可能……"],["李主任委員進勇：不、不，就是在整個選舉事務中不斷發生，若不斷發生，我們就是不斷地糾正為什麼你還是沒辦法做到，在獎懲部分我們必須要檢討。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個獎懲的部分，說實話，其實一整天工作相關的加班費也不是那麼多，我想主委也很清楚，如果把這個懲罰條例放進來之後，會不會因此減少選務人員參與的熱情跟可能性？我們當然支持有相對應的獎懲，可是我覺得更重要的應該是主委剛剛說的教育訓練辦法，或者是教育訓練到底有沒有落實，或者是每一個投開票所的主委到底怎麼看待這件事情，我覺得這裡面很重要是牽扯到一般大人到底怎麼看待小孩進入投開票所這件事情，我覺得這個態度跟視角是不是可以請主委在這邊做更清楚的宣示？因為我們也很好奇相關的教育訓練課程內容是什麼，相關的手冊、相關的教案到底如何讓選務人員真的清楚得到這個概念？可不可以請您說明一下？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們有一個選務工作人員執行業務的手冊，這也是我們最主要的教育訓練教材。第二個，我們淺顯易懂……"],["陳委員培瑜：這個教材可以對外公開嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：這在我們的網站上都可以找到。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，OK。"],["李主任委員進勇：第二個，為了淺顯易懂，所以我們有動畫……"],["陳委員培瑜：是給選務人員看的動畫？"],["李主任委員進勇：給選務人員，一般人……"],["陳委員培瑜：包含警務人員嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：都可以看得到。"],["陳委員培瑜：當然都可以看，可是我們在做教育訓練的時候，也有跟相關的警務單位把這個概念傳達出去嗎？不管是透過教材還是透過動畫。"],["李主任委員進勇：有，警務人員的教育訓練是單獨舉辦，但是我們選務單位都會派人去提供一些資訊。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以這部分中選會應該也很積極在進行嘛？當然我知道是分開舉辦的，可是有沒有一再、一再地強調？"],["李主任委員進勇：壓力很大，所以每次都「十吩咐、九交代」這樣。"],["陳委員培瑜：真的！我覺得這件事情一旦開始宣導，而且我們都知道有很多的投票限制，但如果把小孩帶進去沒有造成投開票所的困擾，我覺得這個事情應該……"],["李主任委員進勇：有、有……"],["陳委員培瑜：因為已經入法了，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：有幾個個案是溝通的問題，我們的選務人員很熱心，有人要進去投票就幫忙看一下，因此大家意見不同而造成一些誤會。"],["陳委員培瑜：大家看法不同，對不對？你幫我帶……"],["李主任委員進勇：不是，是溝通……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這部分我覺得還要再持續加強。","接下來，在相關的辦法裡面只有說投票的部分可以帶，確實沒有說到帶小孩去登記的這個事情，我相信主委還記得，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：這部分主委要不要說一下目前我們可能的辦法或是您的看法是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：受理這個案子的地方選委會已經深切檢討了，他們原來的確有這麼一個規定，後來他們也深切檢討，除了對當事人表示歉意之外，我們對於相關辦法的修正、設施的補強都做了，以後不會再發生這樣的事情。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以除了發生這個案例的縣市之外，其他縣市也如同主委您說的，做了補強、做了宣示……"],["李主任委員進勇：通用。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，通用。這部分要拜託中選會持續把相關的教育訓練，還有該補強的地方、該宣示的部分，我覺得要讓各地選委會都非常清楚知道，我們真的不希望在下一次大選的時候再看到這樣對孩童或是相關候選人不友善，所以我們辦公室這邊會持續跟選委會溝通，希望可以完善選務人員的教育訓練內容，如同剛剛主委您說的，相關的內容在網站上看得到，我們也會持續追蹤是不是符合我們大家所有的期待。還有研議保障參選人攜帶孩子登記參選的措施，您剛剛說已經函請各縣市選委會，我們也會再持續追蹤，所以後續我們都不希望再發生類似的問題。"],["李主任委員進勇：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["陳委員培瑜：是不是可以請主委做一個明確的宣示？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的，沒有問題，我們一定要保障。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。","下一位，林德福、林德福、林德福，林德福委員不在。","本席補充一下，今天中午不休息，繼續處理，謝謝。","再來請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-5","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","黃建賓","王美惠","徐欣瑩","黃捷","高金素梅","丁學忠","鄭天財Sra 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相關手冊相關的教案到底是如何讓這邊選務人員清楚的真的有得到這個概念主委可不可以請您說明一下"},{"start":229.193,"end":247.268,"text":"我們有這個選務工作人員執行業務的一個手冊這也是我們最主要的教育訓練的一個教材這個教材可以對外公開嗎這個在我們的網站上都可以找到那第二個為了淺顯易懂所以我們有這個動畫"},{"start":250.49,"end":251.491,"text":"選務人員的教育訓練是單獨的舉辦但是我們選務單位都會派人去提供他們一些資訊"},{"start":274.511,"end":274.731,"text":"中央選舉委員會"},{"start":297.415,"end":297.475,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":314.44,"end":316.021,"text":"我們受理這個案子的地方選委會已經深切的檢討"},{"start":336.914,"end":338.636,"text":"所以除了這個案例的這個縣市之外其他的縣市也如同主委您說的有做了補強或宣示"},{"start":359.275,"end":359.555,"text":"中央選舉委員會主席"},{"start":376.937,"end":405.363,"text":"所以我們辦公室這邊會持續跟選委會溝通希望可以完善選務委員的教育訓練內容如同剛剛主委您說的相關的內容在網站上看得到我們也會持續追蹤是不是符合我們大家所有的期待還有呢這個研議保障參選人攜帶孩子登記參選的措施您剛剛說也已經喊請各縣市選委會我們也會再持續追蹤所以後續有任何問題我們都不希望再發生類似的問題是不是可以請主委做一個明確的宣示是的沒有問題我們一定要保障"},{"start":406.164,"end":406.465,"text":"林德虎"}]}},{"id":"149692","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149692","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43002533fae44902d824ee83bb1dd0927c3df8ba9b0039caa7a61b51977d4a86bfe65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:24:52 - 10:34:58","影片長度":"00:10:06","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":606,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:34:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:24:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":436,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時25分）謝謝召委，請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，公平會其實大家久久才會見一次，因為其實平常在經濟部、在國發會下，其實公平會相對上沒有那麼地複雜，不過我其實覺得我們的公平會可以扮演更重要的角色，相較於日本、韓國，我認為不是那麼消極地只處理這樣的公平會業務，我認為其實包括公平甚至一些消費者相關問題應該更著重一點，讓公平會有更強的一個功能，也更回應社會的期待，臺灣看待執政黨，公平會一樣是執政的一部分，執政的一個角色、政府的角色，所以我希望未來部長能夠更加重這樣的一個功能。","我想今天還是要來談，我之前也開過一個記者會，就針對於NEXON的遊戲，它在韓國的時候偷偷地修改，它甚至沒有公告，所以它被韓國的公平會重罰了116億韓元，相當於 2.75億臺幣，那我想問一下，因為我們臺灣也有代理新楓之谷這個遊戲，那我上次有提到我希望我們也要立案去調查，到底我們的代理業者有沒有也涉及到這樣的隱匿的狀況？因為這個其實都是很誇張的，因為你本來都已經有基本的獲利可獲得了，如果你調降它機率的話，有的甚至像韓國那更惡劣的是零的話你怎麼抽也抽不到，那幾乎玩家只要每抽一次它就賺一次，而且是必賺的，這是完全地侵犯到消費者權益，完全不合理，這個政府應該要有所作為，我問一下，主委，開始進行調查了嗎？結果什麼時候會出來？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，我們有去瞭解這個案子，它在臺灣是新楓之谷，那個道具跟韓國開罰的道具不太一樣，但是我們仍然立案調查。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，一定要調查，我的意思是說這個東西政府要有作為，韓國的政府有韓國政府的作為，臺灣政府當然也有臺灣政府的作為，所以開始有立案調查？"],["李主任委員鎂：已經立案調查。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那什麼時候會出來？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想我們會看整個狀況，也要蒐集相關的事證，我們會……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，給個時間吧！這件事情韓國在1月份都已經調查出來開罰了，然後我們已經經過2個月了，現在3月了，如果它沒問題的話，也讓社會大眾知道、也讓玩家們知道，如果有問題的話也該展現出政府的魄力嘛！多久可以調查出來？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們儘快來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：儘快是多久？公平會我覺得最可惜就是每次什麼東西都是儘快，但是要展現出效率，人民其實不會給政府那麼多時間的。"],["李主任委員鎂：我想儘量在6個月之內把它調查完畢。"],["賴委員瑞隆：6個月太久了，3個月可不可以？這件事情已經不是那個……而且你們要調查也並不困難，請3個月內把它調查完成可以嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：好，我們儘量。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好不好？現在3月了，我希望6月份的時候能夠把這個調查出來，給國人一份報告，韓國已經發生這樣的狀況，重罰了2.75億臺幣這樣的一個金額，我們希望臺灣的代理廠商有沒有能儘快調查出來，有的話該重罰的重罰，沒有的話也讓大家、讓玩家們知道臺灣其實並沒有產生這樣的問題好嗎？好，謝謝，3個月。再來，我想要再講的，上次有關於不實資訊的部分，其實公平會也罰過了兩次，那兩次各罰200萬，那相較於韓國發生這樣的狀況，它站在整個公平的角度、站在保障消費的角度，它給予廠商重罰2.75億，這個絕對是重啦！對他們來說是一點，但是即使如此，對他們來說也是他們營業額很小的一個比例而已，主委，我們未來如果有查到任何這樣狀況的話，我們會不會採取比較重的一個處罰？"],["李主任委員鎂：整個罰鍰的高低多少在委員會會討論，那對於這種網路機率型遊戲的不實廣告，將來如果查證屬實，我們會朝重罰的方向。"],["賴委員瑞隆：韓國的總統認為這個已經涉及到詐欺了，他認為這是不實地詐欺，確實嘛！坦白講100次不見得會抓得到一、兩次嘛，因為這要抓到沒那麼容易嘛！但是你抓到了，你有沒有一個機制讓人民感受到政府這件事情是完全站在消費者的角度、立場在捍衛的？如果有的話，那些業者它就會發現這不能開玩笑，這罰得很重的，我認為臺灣的公平會在這件事情上面要採取更強硬態度，這個重罰的上限我記得是2,500萬，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是你們只罰200萬，主委當時的考量是什麼？為什麼不罰重一點？200萬是九牛一毛之九牛一毛，它一天的收入隨便也超過200萬，玩家買的早就超過了，為什麼只罰200萬？大家會不會覺得官方在護著這些業者？"],["李主任委員鎂：像第二家我們罰200萬是因為它跟玩家很迅速地採取一些合理的和解補償機制，有對玩家一一回應這件事情，所以我們在整個案情的考量上……"],["賴委員瑞隆：即使是這樣，主委你看一下後續，很多在網路上參與遊戲的人對政府在這件事情上都是很不滿的，你稍微查一下就知道，非常高的比例非常不滿，因為他們覺得很難抓到，抓到以後輕罰200萬，政府其實是毫無作為的，業者也很輕鬆、沒有壓力啊！它當然沒有壓力啊！抓到也是200萬而已，如果它很強烈地隱匿，甚至更惡劣的有詐欺動機，獲利這麼大，抓到頂多200萬而已，這完全不符合比例，所以我的意思是不要看什麼個人和解，抓到了該要重罰就要重罰。"],["李主任委員鎂：將來任何的不實廣告、案情重大的，我們都會朝比較重罰的方式來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我會持續盯著這個案子，好不好？很多的玩家、特別是年輕世代的玩家，他們不見得會具體讓政府感受到，但是他們的不滿是累積在心中的，政府沒有作為，他們是不滿的，所以我希望這件事情公平會有能力、有角色的時候要扮演起這樣的功能跟角色，好嗎？","我們看一下日本有一個景品表示法，對於不實的廣告部分可以罰獲利的3%，它在法裡面直接定了。公平會的處罰裡面也有提到，考量被處分人的資本額、營業狀況跟遊戲銷售等等也可以處罰，依它的資本額，2022年整個稅後淨利是12.8億，如果照這樣的3%，至少也要重罰3,800萬，但我們的法只到2,500萬，你至少要重罰到2,500萬才可以讓人民感受到、讓業者感受到政府對這樣的隱匿，甚至可能涉及詐欺是非常不滿、非常有意見，並且是跟人民、消費者站在一起的。主委，我希望未來有查到的話，該重罰就給予重罰，好嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：在罰鍰額度上以及各界的期待，我們在委員會也會充分討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我還是要提醒，委員會裡面當然要充分討論，但如果任何作為出來跟人民有很大落差的時候，這都是政府要承擔的。委員們一起進來，但是將來的任何作為都是政府要承擔，而主委在裡面應該要陳述清楚，因為你會來國會備詢、你要對人民負責，你會第一線接收對人民負責的感受，所以我認為這件事情要在委員會裡面不斷地表述清楚。跟委員們溝通輕罰這件事情並不困難，但如果站在消費者的角度、站在人民的角度給予合理的處罰，甚至給予重罰的話，讓業者不敢輕易有一個空間，這其實才符合人民的期待。"],["李主任委員鎂：我想整體罰鍰的提高，我們會來討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：民間甚至提到希望建立轉蛋法，愈來愈多線上遊戲、愈來愈多這些部分，主委認為需要立轉蛋法嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：針對單一產品或遊戲定專法，我覺得可能……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我再次提醒，這件事情的影響跟獲利相當大，是不是要立專法可以來討論，但是我希望政府要有所作為，如果單一事情遲遲無法解決的話，這種聲音就會不斷出現，就像過去我們對黃牛所做的處理，不管是在文創法或鐵道法，做了處理之後就可以解決，法是用來解決問題的，我希望主委要重視這些事情。最後，我有提一個修法把上限拉高到3億元，像這次韓國就罰了2.75億，主委同意這樣的修法建議嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想罰鍰的額度要從整套公平法來權衡，因為聯合行為最高是到5,000萬，我們也去查國內包括食品不實廣告的罰鍰，最高也到2,500萬，所以是不是針對機率型遊戲定為3億可能要再瞭解一下。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請主委考慮一下，好不好？特別是針對這種獲利巨大的數位化轉蛋部分，韓國都可以罰到2.75億，如果上限只有2,500萬，再怎麼重罰也只能罰到2,500萬，當然就罰不上去了，我希望主委慎重思考一下，不一定全部納進來，但是要怎樣用這個形式達到我們的期待？萬一違法就重罰，給業者嚇阻力的效果，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝主委。"],["主席：林德福委員、林德福委員，林德福委員不在。","我們請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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"text":"非常高的比例 非常的不滿 因為他覺得你很難抓到 抓到以後輕罰兩百萬政府其實毫無作為的 他也很輕鬆啊 業者沒有壓力啊 他當然沒有壓力啊你抓到也是兩百萬而已嘛 我當然有很強烈的去隱匿甚至很強烈的 甚至於更惡劣的是詐欺的動機嘛 獲利這麼的大 抓到頂多兩百萬而已"},{"start":370.692,"end":395.553,"text":"這完全不符合比例所以我意思說不要看那個什麼個人和解的抓到了就該要重罰就該要重罰我會持續盯著這個案子好不好很多的玩家特別是年輕世代的玩家他們不見得會具體的讓你政府感受到但是他們的不滿其實是累積在心中的他們是不滿的政府沒有作為他們是不滿的"},{"start":396.9,"end":409.091,"text":"所以我希望這件事情公平會有能力有角色的時候要扮演起這樣的功能跟角色好嗎好我們來看一下日本有一個叫錦平表示法他對於不實的廣告不實那部分可以罰獲利的3%"},{"start":412.731,"end":427.89,"text":"他在法院直接定的那公平會的處罰裡面有提到考量被被處分人的資本額營業狀況跟銷售遊戲的等等也可以處罰以他的資本額的話如果照他2022年的整個近"},{"start":429.992,"end":455.549,"text":"這個稅後的淨利的話12.8億如果照這樣的3%至少重罰也要3800萬3800萬我們的法制到2500萬你至少要重罰到2500萬才可以讓人民感受到說讓業者感到說我政府對這件事情確實是對於你們這樣的隱匿對你們甚至可能涉及到炸機是非常的不滿非常有意見跟人民跟消費者站在一起的所以我希望如果未來有查到的話該重罰就可以重罰好嗎"},{"start":456.397,"end":468.662,"text":"在這個法環的額度上那各界的期待我們在委員會也會充分來討論我還是要提醒喔委員會裡面當然充分來討論但是如果任何的作為出來跟人民有很大的落差的時候這個都是政府要去承擔的"},{"start":469.887,"end":496.91,"text":"委員們一起進來但是將來有任何的作為都是政府要承擔而主委在這裡面應該要陳述清楚因為你會來到國會會被被詢因為你要對人民來負責你會第一線的接受到人民的一個負責的感受所以我認為這件事情要在委員會裡面不斷的要去表述清楚不然要去跟委員們溝通、輕罰這件事情並不困難嘛但如果站在消費者的角度站在人民的角度給予合理的處罰甚至給予重罰的話"},{"start":498.613,"end":514.347,"text":"讓不敢有輕易的一個空間的話這個其實才是符合人民的期待我想整體法環的提到這部分我們會裡面會來民間也有在提到甚至希望建立轉彈法越來越多的線上遊戲越來越多的這種的部分主委認為需要來立轉彈法嗎針對一個單一的"},{"start":528.168,"end":538.84,"text":"我再次提醒這件事情的它的影響跟獲利其實相當的大是不是要立專法這個可以來討論但是我希望政府要有所作為如果辦議的事情遲遲無法解決的話"},{"start":539.701,"end":561.015,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":561.479,"end":561.499,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":578.503,"end":602.549,"text":"請主委去考慮一下好不好就對於他的特別是那種蘇維化的轉蛋的部分他的獲利巨大的時候韓國都可以罰到2.75億如果你的上限只有2500萬再怎麼罰想要中我罰只給我2500萬當然就罰不上去了我希望主委慎重思考一下怎麼樣的來不一定全部拿進來但是怎麼樣用這個這個形式達到我們期待如果萬一他違法重罰給業者賀足利的效果好不好好謝謝主委好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149691","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149691","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300f3a2385c048e171343c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a6158e5f3beada05b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:45:23 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這就是我想要請教你下一個問題"},{"start":227.691,"end":255.72,"text":"我這邊直接公開表態啦我支持你啦我支持要通過公民投票不在籍投票謝謝秦委員大力但是跟選舉的不在籍投票根本不衝突我直接問你請問公投什麼時候下一次公投是什麼時候今年的8月應該到目前為止看案件進來的這個時程大概來不及了來不及明年呢明年吧明年吧明年吧"},{"start":257.54,"end":258.02,"text":"施政委員"},{"start":285.24,"end":287.441,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":304.659,"end":332.587,"text":"你2026年你難道不能就開始做明年2025年的經驗難道2026年的選舉不在籍投票來實施嗎?為什麼你就沒有信心了?我就跟你講我們今天在野黨都已經提出不在籍投票大院就是準備要往這方向走可是今天你身為中選會的主管機關主委"},{"start":333.939,"end":339.59,"text":"我們很抱歉啦!主委我不可以這樣講啦!你真的沒有我們賴清德總統的同理心啦!"},{"start":341.055,"end":368.257,"text":"你想想看你學生時代你就講講賴清德講的一番我更希望我更在乎委員自己的意見我跟你講我跟立憲跟賴清德一樣啊賴清德這個意見就是我的意見啊我支持賴清德總統當選人啊可是我懷疑你沒有賴清德跟我的同理心啊今天只因為你今天虛擬的一個明年也不一定會不會做的公投的不在即你剛剛都講說盡量努力啦我相信你啦"},{"start":369.978,"end":370.158,"text":"羅智強委員"}]}},{"id":"149690","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149690","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43004c965dc5d69a63adaf4279b9ad9aebfdf8ba9b0039caa7a60e17d421418d2e265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:38:34 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11:50:25","影片長度":"00:11:51","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-4"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":711,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:50:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T11:38:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":778,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時38分）有請局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長，你好。"],["蔡局長明彥：吳委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：我要問的問題如果你們同仁有認真幫你準備，一定已經知道我要問的問題是什麼了。我今天要問的問題其實很簡單，就是這間房子的問題。我直接切到議題裡面，選舉已經過去了，我們都把政治放兩旁，就談你們一直說的依法行政這個東西。我一輩子是念法律的，我們就來談什麼叫依法行政。請問局長，為什麼可以對這個房子進行維安？"],["蔡局長明彥：依照特勤條例，我們維安……"],["吳委員宗憲：第幾條？"],["李副指揮官：第十二條。"],["蔡局長明彥：我請特勤中心同仁把條文跟委員說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：請快一點，時間很短。第十二條，對不對？"],["李副指揮官：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我來講一下。局長，第十二條是可以對於受維安者的住居所加以維安，請問這個是住所，還居所？還是什麼？"],["李副指揮官：這個是居所。"],["吳委員宗憲：我有看到賴清德的發言人也說，這個是符合特種勤務條例。我請教一下，過去4年賴清德副總統在這裡住過幾個晚上？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，他有不定期住在這邊，所以才會把它定位為居所。"],["吳委員宗憲：他不定期住在這邊，他住在裡面幾個晚上？你們不可能不知道啊！在裡面睡過幾個晚上？你不要跟我說午睡也算，睡過幾個晚上？"],["蔡局長明彥：相關情資涉及到維安對象的作息，我們沒辦法對外洩漏。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，我告訴你，他們自己也講他不是住在那個地方。我們來看一下民法第二十條是怎麼規定的，民法第二十條講得很清楚，依一定的事實，有久住的意思，這個才叫做住所。我們再來看什麼叫做居所？83年抗字第2343號，另外還有很多個，我就不講了。居所的意思就是要有居住的事實，只是沒有久住的意思。譬如我住在宿舍、我長期住那裡就是居所，那不叫住所。也就是今天這個地方根本不符合住所，也不叫居所，請問一下你們憑什麼去維安？"],["蔡局長明彥：它確實是按照我們特勤作業的規劃，不只是針對賴副總統，長期以來我們的維安對象、我們對住居所的定義，針對居所的部分……"],["吳委員宗憲：不行這樣講！你們一直說你們依法行政，你現在又跟我說那一套，我聽不進去。法律上的住所依民法第二十條有規定，多次的判決、判例也都有說明什麼叫居所。你今天針對這個地方，既不是他名下的房子，他只是偶爾有過去，這不叫住所也不叫居所，憑什麼國安局可以去做這樣的維安？你的依法行政依的是什麼法？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們就依特勤條例把它認定為是維安對象的居所。"],["吳委員宗憲：法律是可以隨便你們這樣解釋的嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們大概都是依照這樣的作業規範來做。"],["吳委員宗憲：我現在告訴你，這個就是違法的維安！因為法律上面完全不合，之前沒有人點出來，但我念法律的，我必須在這邊告訴你，我會負完全的責任，我從還不是當立委的時候就一直在主張這個，但當時我沒有言論免責權，我說要告就可以告我。我必須告訴你們，這個就是完全違法嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有、沒有……"],["吳委員宗憲：你在那邊跟我說沒有違法。"],["蔡局長明彥：居所這邊特別提到的是，他只要有居住在當特定地域的客觀事實，沒有久住，只要他有居住的事實，它就是一個居所，所以沒有違法。"],["吳委員宗憲：你要不要去問律師？你要不要先去問一下律師，再來回答我這個問題？我在這邊給你上個法學小教室，住所就是有永久居住的意思；居所是有居住的事實，只是沒有久住。例如你大學4年住宿舍，那個叫做你的居所，要有一個居住的事實存在。所以我剛剛請教你，過去3年多、快4年，副總統在那邊住過幾天？"],["蔡局長明彥：有住過。"],["吳委員宗憲：你不要跟我說住一、兩天。如果是這樣，旅館是不是我的居所？我好幾次睡在立法院，立法院是不是我的居所？不是有睡在那邊一個晚上、兩個晚上就叫做居所，你們對法律不能這樣亂解釋。你一直對外界、對民眾說，你叫做依法行政，說真的，我搞不清楚你依什麼法？","另外，我再請教你，如果是受維安者的住所或居所，你們有沒有裁量權說不爽就可以不要去維安？你有沒有裁量權說可以不去維安？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們當然會評估相關維安的需求來判斷要不要維安，這有專業的判斷。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果是他的住所，你也可以不要去維安，是不是？"],["蔡局長明彥：一般來講，既然是住所、是長期居住的，我們就一定要派置維安人員。居所的話……"],["吳委員宗憲：我再請教你，你們憑什麼後來撤哨？撤哨是什麼原因？"],["蔡局長明彥：第一個、它是居所，因為有去居住的事實，符合剛剛委員列出來居所相關的法律、判例解釋，所以我們去做維安。"],["吳委員宗憲：我剛剛已經跟你說，那不叫居所！我已經跟你說，那不叫居所！"],["蔡局長明彥：他有居住的事實，就在我們居所的定義裡面。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你說，法律如果可以這樣隨便讓你解釋，那太離譜了！法律不能這樣做。報告局長，你們不能這樣亂解釋法律，這樣我睡過某一間旅館，那也是我的居所。我去我爸媽家住一晚，也叫我的居所嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們都會評估。只要有維安的需要，對於我們維安對象的安全，我們一定採取最嚴格的方式來維護安全。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長要這樣亂解釋法律，算了！我也不想再跟你爭辯。"],["蔡局長明彥：這是我們依法行政的解釋。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，對法律有這種解釋，全臺灣念法律的人都會聽不下去！當時為什麼撤哨？"],["蔡局長明彥：撤哨是居所的事實已經出現了改變，因為我們的維安對象已經宣布，他不再繼續居住在這個地方，他要把它捐贈為一個公益團體集合的場所。"],["吳委員宗憲：他講一句話，他在辯論會的時候講了這句話，就可以變成沒有維安的必要，我跟你說，我這幾天也在看房子，我一直想要在臺北買一個小房子，我看到一間，我說的是事實，結果他突然就跟我說不賣，我在「591」看到，結果他就跟我說不賣。好，今天你們知不知道依照信託法，他必須要主管機關許可，所以公益信託你要先經過主管機關許可，為什麼副總統今天講一句「我要交付公益信託」，那這個就信託了嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，有沒有完成信託是一回事，但是我們有確認過副總統認為他以後沒有要繼續居住在這個居所，所以我們就撤除了維安的維護，就這麼簡單。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：就這麼簡單。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：信託是歸信託的流程。"],["吳委員宗憲：那個地方不是居所，如果認為是居所，你也不能撤，不是錯A，就是錯B；不是錯去那邊維安，就是錯了撤哨。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，這都是依照……"],["吳委員宗憲：二個就是錯一個，所以我跟你說，我說一句重話，不好意思，比較得罪，公務員是國家的，不是屬於特定政黨或特定個人的。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然，當然。"],["吳委員宗憲：千萬不要一本正經的胡說八道。"],["蔡局長明彥：並沒有、並沒有，這個不是只有適用在賴副總統……"],["吳委員宗憲：好啦！那沒關係啦！至少我跟你說……"],["蔡局長明彥：我們歷來的維安都是依照這個標準，標準都一致……"],["吳委員宗憲：至少我跟局長說……"],["蔡局長明彥：標準都一致的。"],["吳委員宗憲：居所，麻煩你們去弄清楚什麼叫做居所，如果可以像你們這樣隨隨便便解釋說，他有在那邊住過幾晚就叫做居所，全國的判決、判例重新再來過了啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：我們歷來都是依照這樣的解釋來提供維安……"],["吳委員宗憲：不叫作歷來，依法、依法……"],["蔡局長明彥：維安對象都是依法行政……"],["吳委員宗憲：你們一直對外說依法行政……"],["蔡局長明彥：是依法行政。"],["吳委員宗憲：麻煩要依法，不能這樣做。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，依法行政，提供所有維安對象同等的維安待遇。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是同等，這不是平等原則在談的地方，我們現在是談法律，特種勤務條例裡面說到的住所、居所就是法律上面住所、居所的定義，貴局不可以自己亂擴張解釋。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有亂……我們就是依法行政，我剛也解釋了。"],["吳委員宗憲：那我剛已經跟你說法律的居所不是這樣，你現在要跟我辯論，好啦！我跟你說……"],["蔡局長明彥：委員，你可以……對，那個字義你再瞭解一下，就……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是我要瞭解，我做了二十幾年的法律人，我對這個地方很清楚，所以我剛剛是麻煩局長，貴局能夠去請教一下律師……"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["吳委員宗憲：這個地方是你弄錯了，還是我弄錯了，什麼叫做居所，麻煩你們弄清楚，如果照你的那個說法的話，我跟你講我們的民法、我們的歷年判決都判錯了，好不好？這部分麻煩你弄清楚。","後面我再跟你討論的是全國民眾一直很在乎現場維安人員拿掃除用具的事情，我有看過你們的說法，但是我必須講，你們的說法是說他只是協助掃除人員把東西移走，但是很多人都是把這個當笑話看，如果今天真的如你們所說的只是協助掃除人員把東西移走，那是不是你們以後要去跟同仁講不要做這個事，會引起很多不必要的糾紛？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們維安勤務的分配從來沒有打掃的工作，只有維安的工作，那針對這個個案，我們特勤中心也有去瞭解當天的狀況，當天的狀況就是我們在對外新聞說明的時候所陳述的狀況。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，我本來是想要請問一下打掃是屬於什麼維安行為，但是……"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有、沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：我說真的我有看過你們的說法啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是完全沒道理，但是你們至少要跟同仁講，不要造成這種誤會，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：我也跟委員報告一下，你可以在螢幕上面右手邊有一位穿迷仔褲的人士，他就是一個清潔工人，名字我都可以跟你講。"],["吳委員宗憲：這我沒有否認。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，他就是清潔工人。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以到現在我沒有去質疑你這個點，對不對？我一直沒有質疑嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對啊！但是……"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有講這個點，我認同你們說的，OK，那你們說的如果有道理的情況下，是不是要避免以後再造成民眾的誤會？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我的意思只是這樣。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：剛剛我們提到的住所、居所得否維安，我跟你講我的立場是這樣，對於法律，我自己檢察官做20年，後來當法制局長做4年，這24年的期間我都一直在碰法律，從大學念到現在，居所的定義絕對不是你們解釋的這個定義，你不能說以前這樣做對，現在就是對，沒有這種事情，也不是說你對別人這樣做對，對賴副總統這樣做就對，你是在陷害他，你這樣讓全民覺得他是特權份子，這不好，這會害到賴副總統，我相信一個副總統不會去對維安這麼小的事情，他會去知道這件事，這樣變成說你讓他背了一個黑鍋，在這邊我只是這樣講……"],["蔡局長明彥：好，尊重委員的……"],["吳委員宗憲：居所絕對不是這個定義，千萬不要拿別人這麼做、以往這麼做，今天我就可以這麼做，法律不是這樣玩的。"],["蔡局長明彥：尊重委員的見解。"],["吳委員宗憲：好啦！那我也尊重你剛剛的說法，但是我跟你說那個說法絕對違法，可不可以二個禮拜給我一個……"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們一個書面說明給委員參考……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，書面說明。"],["蔡局長明彥：瞭解我們的論述的法理依據，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝。就剛剛委員提的部分，如果是這樣，我們甚至可以要求在過去……反正現在已經撤哨了，是不是應該要提供過去居住的是哪些時間，因為特勤人員只要去行使職權的時候，其實通常會有紀錄的，就這一個部分，我們希望在委員會跟委員討論的時候還是據實以告，不然我們會做這些要求，這個局長也請準備一下。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請高金素梅，高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","請吳思瑤，吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在。","請鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請蔡易餘，蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","請李昆澤，李昆澤、李昆澤委員不在。","請鄭天財，鄭天財、鄭天財委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有陳永康委員、林憶君委員、王定宇委員、黃仁委員，還有王鴻薇委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。本日委員口頭質詢未及答復的部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-4","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","陳冠廷","邱志偉","賴士葆","張啓楷","吳宗憲","陳永康","林憶君","王定宇","黃仁","王鴻薇","洪申翰"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發\n展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131001_00012"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.00534375,"end":2.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.10221875,"end":3.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.40971875,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.54034375,"end":8.063468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.72159375,"end":13.058468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.26159375,"end":9.869093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.345343750000001,"end":20.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.27659375,"end":30.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.675968750000003,"end":37.594718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.74659375,"end":42.150968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.150968750000004,"end":42.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.454718750000005,"end":44.361593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.09159375,"end":44.243468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.361593750000004,"end":44.462843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.462843750000005,"end":44.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.01971875,"end":45.525968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.53846875,"end":47.095343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.095343750000005,"end":54.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.87159375,"end":48.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.705968750000004,"end":61.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.400968750000004,"end":64.64534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.28659375000001,"end":65.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.99096875000001,"end":68.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.25659375000001,"end":69.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.21409375,"end":71.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.98596875,"end":76.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.49159375,"end":78.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.66846875,"end":78.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.49534375,"end":80.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.96346875,"end":82.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.46534375,"end":85.72221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.75159375000001,"end":90.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.00846875,"end":94.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.15534375,"end":96.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.38284375,"end":100.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.04471875,"end":105.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.82471875,"end":106.57971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.35596875,"end":114.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.88596875,"end":121.12596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.71659375,"end":151.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.99034375000002,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.02409375000002,"end":152.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.90159375000002,"end":152.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.91846875000002,"end":162.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.97596875000002,"end":166.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.43096875,"end":189.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.52909375000002,"end":187.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.36409375000002,"end":194.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.78534375,"end":198.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.10534375,"end":204.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.08346875,"end":209.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.65221875,"end":212.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start"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我跟你們說 民法第20條講得很清楚一定的事實有久住的意思 這個才叫做住所好 那我們再來看 什麼叫做居所83年抗治2343號 另外還有很多個啦 我就不講了居所的意思就是 你要有居住的事實 只是沒有久住的意思比如說我住在宿舍 我長期住那裡就是居所 那不叫住所"},{"start":144.626,"end":151.766,"text":"也就是說今天這個地方根本不符合住所也不叫居所請問一下你們憑什麼去維安"},{"start":152.932,"end":175.988,"text":"他確實是按照我們的特勤作業的規劃,不只是針對賴副總統,長期以來我們的維安對象,我們的駐居所的定義,針對居所...不行不行,這樣講,你們一直說你們依法行政,你現在又跟我說,說那一套我聽不進去,法律上面駐所民法20條規定,居所多次的判決判例也都有說明什麼叫居所,"},{"start":176.568,"end":197.862,"text":"那你今天針對的這個地方也不是他的名下的房子他偶爾有過去這不叫住所也不叫居所憑什麼國安局可以去做這樣的違安你的依法行政依的是什麼法對我們依的就是我們特定條例把它認定為是違安對象的居所那這樣法律是可以隨便你們這樣子解釋的嗎"},{"start":199.161,"end":222.442,"text":"但我們在相關的一個作業的規範大概都是依照這樣的一個那我現在告訴你你們這個就是違法的違安啊因為法律上面完全不合嘛之前沒有人點出來但我念法律的我必須在這邊告訴你我會負完全的責任我從還不是當立委的時候我就一直在主張這個但當時我說我那時候沒有言論免責權要告可以告我那我必須告訴你們"},{"start":223.183,"end":247.604,"text":"你這個就是完全違法嗎?你在那邊跟我說沒有違法?居所他這邊特別提到的是他只要有居住在特定的地域的客觀的事實沒有久住只要他有居住的事實他就是一個居所所以沒有違法你要不要先去問一下律師再回答這個問題我跟你講我在那邊給你上個法學小教室"},{"start":248.385,"end":266.527,"text":"住所就是你永久居住的意思居所是你有居住的事實只是沒有久住例如你大學四年住宿舍那個叫做你的居所他要有一個居住的事實存在你今天所以我剛剛請教你過去的三年多快四年"},{"start":267.991,"end":290.033,"text":"副總統在那邊住過幾天有住過你不要跟我說住兩天那旅館是不是我的居所我好幾次睡在立法院那立法院是不是我的居所不是說有睡在那個一個晚上兩個晚上那叫做居所你們法律不能這樣亂解釋啊然後你一直對外界對民眾說你叫做依法行政我說真的好我搞不清楚你依什麼法另外我再請教你"},{"start":291.42,"end":315.067,"text":"如果是受維安者的住所或居所,你們有沒有裁量權說我不爽,我可以不要去維安?你有沒有裁量權說我可以不去維安?我們當然會評估相關維安的需求來做判斷,要不要維安,對,只有專業的判斷。如果是他的住所,你也可以不要去維安,是不是?一般來講,既然他是住所,是長期居住的,我們就一定要派至我們的維安。好,那我再請教你,那你們憑什麼會來撤掃?"},{"start":316.807,"end":334.161,"text":"測哨是什麼原因?第一個他是居所因為有去居住的事實符合剛剛委員列出來居所的相關的法律的判例的解釋沒有我已經跟你說那不叫居所我已經跟你說那不叫居所委員他有居住的事實他就是在我們的居所的第一面我跟你說法律如果可以這樣隨便跟你解釋的話"},{"start":335.402,"end":347.508,"text":"那太離譜了啦 法律不能這樣做啦報告局長 你們不能這樣子亂解釋法律那這樣子我哪裡睡過 某一間旅館我睡過也是我的居所我去我爸媽家住一晚也叫我的居所嗎"},{"start":348.53,"end":364.256,"text":"我們這會做評估我們這都會做評估只要有維安的需要對於我們維安對象的安全我們可以採取分別的方式局長你要這樣亂解釋法律算了我也不想再跟你爭辯這個點我跟你講這法律這種解釋全台灣念法律的人會聽不下去"},{"start":366.877,"end":393.273,"text":"當時為什麼撤掃?撤掃是居所的事實已經出現了改變因為我們的維安對象已經宣布了他不再繼續居住在這個地方他要把它捐贈為一個公益團體的他講一句話他在辯論會的時候講了這句話就可以變成沒有維安的必要我跟你說我這幾天也在看房子我一直想要在台北買一個小房子我看到一間我說的是事實結果"},{"start":394.854,"end":417.786,"text":"結果他跟我說突然跟我說不賣我在591看到結果他又跟我說不賣今天你們知不知道依照信託法信託法他必須要主管機關核准要主管機關許可所以公益信託你要先經過主管機關許可為什麼副總統今天講了一句我要交付公益信託那這個就信託了嗎"},{"start":418.803,"end":442.294,"text":"有沒有完成信託是一回事但是我們有確認過副總統認為他以後沒有要繼續居住在這個居所所以我們就撤除了維安的維護就這麼簡單我跟你講啦那個地方不是居所如果是認為是居所你也不能撤不是撤A就是撤B不是撤去那邊維安就是錯了"},{"start":443.72,"end":451.272,"text":"撤哨沒有這都是依照兩個就是錯一個所以我真我跟你說啦唉我說一句重話不好意思不要得罪"},{"start":453.342,"end":480.965,"text":"公務員是國家的,不是屬於特定政黨或特定個人的當然當然千萬不要一本正經的胡說八道並沒有,並沒有,這個不是只有適用在...那沒關係啦,至少我跟你說,至少跟局長說,居所麻煩你們去弄清楚什麼叫做居所如果可以像你們這樣隨隨便便解釋說他有在那邊住過幾晚,就叫做居所全國的判決判例重新再來過了啦"},{"start":481.585,"end":506.757,"text":"我們歷來都是依照這樣的解釋來不叫做歷來依法依法你們一直對外說依法行政麻煩要依法不能這樣做有依法行政提供所有的違案對象同等的一個違案待遇不是同等這不是平等原則在談的地方我們現在是談法律是特種勤務條例裡面說到的住所居所就是法律上面的住所居所的定義"},{"start":508.138,"end":515.799,"text":"規矩不可以自己亂擴張解釋我剛跟你說法律的居所不是這樣你現在跟我辯論說"},{"start":518.088,"end":545.162,"text":"你那個字義再了解一下不是我要了解我做了20幾年的法律人我對這地方很清楚所以我剛剛是麻煩局長、貴局能夠去請教一下律師這個地方是你弄錯了還是我弄錯了什麼叫做居所麻煩你們弄清楚如果照你的那個說法的話我跟你講我們的民法我們的歷年的判決都判錯了"},{"start":546.362,"end":570.673,"text":"這部分麻煩你弄清楚後面我再跟你討論全國民眾一直很在乎現場危害人員拿掃除用具的事情我有看過你們的說法但是我必須講一個你們的說法是說他只是協助掃除人員把東西移走但是很多人都是把這個當笑話看"},{"start":571.974,"end":597.582,"text":"那你們是不是如果今天真的如你們所說的只是協助掃除人員把東西移走那是不是你們以後要去跟同仁講不要做這個事會引起很多不必要的糾紛我們的維安勤務的分配從來沒有打掃的工作只有維安的工作那針對這個個案我們特勤中心也有去了解當天的狀況那當天的狀況就是我們在對外新聞說明的時候所陳述的狀況"},{"start":598.758,"end":626.138,"text":"我本來是想要請問一下就是說打掃是屬於什麼違安的行為但是我說真的我有看過你們的說法啦不是完全沒道理但是你們至少跟同仁講不要造成這種誤會嘛對不對我也跟那個委員報告一下你可以在委員螢幕上面右手邊有一位穿迷仔褲的人士他就是一個清潔工人名字我都可以跟你講這我沒有否認所以我沒有我到現在我沒有我沒有去質疑你這個點嘛對不對我一直沒有質疑嘛"},{"start":627.258,"end":647.164,"text":"我沒有講這個點我認同你們說的那你們說的如果有道理的情況下是不是要避免以後再造成民眾的誤會我的意思只是這樣剛剛我們提到的那個住所居所得否為安的我跟你講我的立場是這樣我對於法律"},{"start":648.064,"end":673.591,"text":"我自己檢察官做20年我後來當法律局長做4年這24年的期間我都一直在碰法律從大學念到現在居所的定義絕對不是你們解釋的這個定義你不能說以前這樣做對現在就是對沒有這種事情也不是說你對別人這樣做對對賴副總統這樣做就對你是在陷害他你這樣讓全民覺得他是特權分子這不好這會害到賴副總統"},{"start":675.231,"end":675.791,"text":"尊重委員的見解"},{"start":696.325,"end":707.752,"text":"好啦那我也尊重你剛剛的那個說法啦但是我跟你說那個說法絕對違法可不可以兩個禮拜給我一個就是好我們一個書面的說明給我對書面說明瞭解我們的論述的法理的依據謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149689","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149689","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430011fb5e1b3e195a7cee83bb1dd0927c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6f5e92c6d24b32f115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"10:17:05 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限那是不是聯合的一個行為那現在你要特別注意電價上漲、國安法會上漲等一下水會上漲、等一下油價又上漲台灣都一片的漲升所以衛福部部長說你們會去調查有沒有聯合漲價的行為接下來講就拍調查"},{"start":190.048,"end":195.902,"text":"啊這一方面那為何不把這個資料丟給你們叫你們去查你們怎麼樣查還是"},{"start":199.83,"end":223.023,"text":"我想我們有很多查核的方式一個當然是主動如果各地方衛生單位或是我們從這個各院所的這個條帳的情形認為有可疑的地方或有異狀這個我們會來調查我看診所大概除了聯合診所有好幾家有這樣的行為那要看地區的狀況"},{"start":224.384,"end":251.001,"text":"所以這個地方要聯合 這個生意上的競爭啊 我漲100塊 有的漲99塊 那有沒有聯合行為是個人去個人的 就不會聯合行為 如果他都漲的都一樣 但是各漲各的 這個我們不會認定是聯合行為即便講好了價格不一樣 有特別勾結 那就是聯合我這瞭解 應該當醫生的人都有良心跟道德"},{"start":253.151,"end":275.171,"text":"那你也曉得我一直持續的關注於高通事件那我們台灣一個很特殊的方法就是7億美金的罰款可以用來投資台灣的產業來代替這個罰款我一直盯著這邊那高通公司的罰款是要到112年結事"},{"start":278.253,"end":292.321,"text":"但是他在111年就執行完畢結果執行完畢的話高通公司在臺灣裁員一千多人請解釋7億美金是代表最少是210億以上你現在做法出來你覺得他現在有沒有機器再來協資臺灣"},{"start":306.765,"end":307.837,"text":"你們有沒有做出報告?"},{"start":313.393,"end":325.283,"text":"這個和解方案都是白紙黑字照這個和解的內容在執行那我們在這個和解執行期間的國科會跟經濟部都有協助相關的和解計劃有的是持續性的不會因為和解條件都拐拐起來是持續性但是他投資的內容是有延續性的"},{"start":341.335,"end":346.678,"text":"所以我一直跟你講他研發中心用花粉來代替台灣投資他的研究中心如果有新的專利台灣能不能分享得到"},{"start":362.827,"end":364.568,"text":"我看是很困難我高通那麼大的公司實力很強大"},{"start":386.597,"end":398.092,"text":"你說給大學計時後5日的實驗室臺灣的公司能不能到他5日的實驗室去做實驗可能有困難那是我們的錢欸不是他的錢欸"},{"start":402.458,"end":412.832,"text":"我們的廠商有在做實驗,我想這個都做和解企業,我們都很祝福有阿沒有啦,我現在想問一下,你只說和解企業,有說我們台灣的超商可以去你的無機實驗室去做實驗嗎?因為產品開發時程我們的廠商都有在做"},{"start":417.979,"end":433.324,"text":"我們的廠商都有力氣在做,相關的都有一的時程啦,實驗室我們的廠商有力氣啊,所以要時程,所以那個細節我可以恢復給你沒有,你恢復給我記錄一下,兩者是劃分,本來我們很熱情,他說來台灣導資,啊你現在講他5G實驗室,對,好,這個新的但是裡面一個重點,專利我們可能拿不到"},{"start":445.228,"end":445.528,"text":"陳超明委員"}]}},{"id":"149688","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149688","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300b1007103e3ce8adb43c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a68dd520d2c11f20995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:35:08 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11:45:14","影片長度":"00:10:06","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-5"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":606,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:45:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T11:35:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":821,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時35分）主席謝謝，麻煩請李進勇主委。"],["主席：好，請主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好。主委，今天本席看了一下業務報告，剛剛其實很多委員都有在詢問關於這次1月13號的總統大選跟立委選舉，我就比較直接明白想請教，我最希望看到的一個數據並沒有在業務報告裡面，到底1月13號這次大選有多少起的爭議事件，以及你們的處理狀況以及後續的處理，有沒有做一個統計？"],["李主任委員進勇：第一個，在首長信箱裡面是有一些檢舉或者是投訴的案子，這些案子我們都交給地方的選委會……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們受理多少以及現在處理的狀況，還有瑕疵的部分，在今天的報告中一定是最主要、國人最關心的事情。"],["李主任委員進勇：因為地方的選委會還陸續的在查證之中。"],["洪委員孟楷：還在查？什麼時候會……"],["李主任委員進勇：告一個段落之後會把階段性的統計資料再送給委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們第11屆的立法委員都已經上任，都在做質詢了，然後總統有可能520都要就職了，那到底1月13號這次選舉有多少個投開票所有瑕疵，剛剛委員也有提到，有先整票再唱票，這一些事情的整理、統計數據，有沒有影響最後的選舉結果，怎麼在今天的報告都沒有？"],["李主任委員進勇：可以肯定的是沒有影響選舉的結果。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有影響選舉結果，不然我們也不會在這邊，但重點在於你的數據在哪裡？我們講說結案報告，你要講說中選會過去這兩年最重要辦理的一個是九合一選舉，一個是1月13號2024年的總統、立委大選，主委，你認為這個資料重不重要？本席認為非常重要。"],["李主任委員進勇：是，我們都有在處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候這個資料會出來？"],["李主任委員進勇：至於所謂結案報告的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在手邊有沒有資料，在這次1月13號到底有多少瑕疵的事件？"],["李主任委員進勇：目前沒有這方面的統計。"],["洪委員孟楷：也沒有！"],["李主任委員進勇：但是有資料在進行，有案例在進行。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，你那麼有經驗，照理講各選委會1月13號第一時間就已經通報啦！不是嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我跟委員報告，我們每一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：不然剛剛很多委員提到說有整票的，你也回答說有看過那個影片，那個不是啦！沒有關係啊！既然你都那麼有底氣講說那個不是瑕疵，或是說那個沒有關係，怎麼沒有整理一份資料給大家來確認？"],["李主任委員進勇：因為陸續地方選委會的調查……"],["洪委員孟楷：那你又講說陸續在確認，1月13號到現在幾個月了？2個月了。"],["李主任委員進勇：因為有一些檢舉的案件、投訴的案件陸續進來，它陸續進來的時候我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委會不會覺得這樣慢半拍？不只半拍啊！好幾拍。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們的檢討並沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：你連檢討都沒有檢討，你連數據都沒有，本席現在花了2、3分鐘的時間跟你就教，應該出現在你業務報告裡面最重要的資料今天都沒有出現，這是本席提出第一個要請中選會好好的負責任，尤其是召委，我覺得召委很用心，在他當召委第一個禮拜的第一天就排中選會的業務報告，照理講你就應該要把這個資料拿出來，不是嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員會的關心，因為這個案子……"],["洪委員孟楷：各位委員應該可以認同吧？相關行政同仁應該可以認同吧？主委，本席今天準備很多資料跟你討論不在籍投票的部分，本席也看到行政院現在有送出院版的不在籍投票，你們現在是希望用移轉投票以及希望用公投先行。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們先請教，剛剛你一直講要穩健踏實，但是說實在話，我們一直質疑的、我們質詢的是，其實早就應該要動作往前了，因為有太多的國家都已經在施行移轉投票、通訊投票，或者是對人的選舉的投票。你先看一下你第22頁的報告，我也看到我們很多委員參加了世界選舉機關協會，有去泰國曼谷參加「亞洲的民主與選舉」國際會議，泰國有沒有不在籍投票？"],["李主任委員進勇：據我瞭解應該有。"],["洪委員孟楷：有，泰國有……"],["李主任委員進勇：實施的範圍跟選舉……"],["洪委員孟楷：泰國有不在籍投票，泰國有對人的選舉的不在籍投票對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：跟實施的方式都有不同的程度……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，泰國有沒有不在籍投票？有，而且它是對人的選舉有不在籍投票。"],["李主任委員進勇：臺灣也有不在籍投票。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，印度有沒有不在籍投票？"],["李主任委員進勇：有，臺灣也有不在籍投票。"],["洪委員孟楷：臺灣有沒有全民的不在籍投票？你如果要做這樣子的文字遊戲，那我們就……"],["李主任委員進勇：所以全民的不在籍投票是希望貴院能夠支持我們這個草案。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我們對人，沒有錯，我現在就是跟你講，委員去參加、去每一個國家裡面，每一個國家早就已經施行很久的對人的不在籍的投票，結果我們現在還在講說我們要穩健，是我們已經落後很多了，然後你現在還在講穩健，我覺得這根本就是不想做事啊！當為而不作為，我們講公務人員在一個機關上面你都可能會有下台的一天，但是你當為而不作為，第10屆的時候那4年到底有沒有規劃？當時疫情的期間，我們認為疫情是最好可以來推動，不管是通訊投票、不管是不在籍投票，應該要來規劃、應該要來施行，那時候4年不做……"],["李主任委員進勇：選舉跟公投……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在第11屆了，看到了立法院新的民意、新的國會出來了，才拿出一個簡化版、矮化版、簡易版、簡配版、陽春版的行政院版本……"],["李主任委員進勇：選舉跟公投的不在籍投票草案……"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是很奇怪嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：在歷史上有兩次被提到大院來……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是不是你當為而不作為？"],["李主任委員進勇：但是兩次大院都沒有完成審議。"],["洪委員孟楷：您任內有提過任何一次嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：有，公投法，就110年……"],["洪委員孟楷：您任內？"],["李主任委員進勇：110年有提……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席講到不在籍投票就是在這一次嘛！就是在這一次行政院……"],["李主任委員進勇：歷史上有兩次的總統副總統、兩次的公投的不在籍……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席現在要講的……"],["李主任委員進勇：送到大院都沒有完成……"],["洪委員孟楷：就是我們要求在所謂的移轉、所謂的對人的不在籍投票，當我們也看到我們的委員有去泰國參加、有去印度參加、有去韓國參加相關會議，而這幾個國家都已經早就實施了全國性的、移轉的以及對人的不在籍投票……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們的選舉程序在經濟學人報的評比中，是亞洲第一名，都比他們好。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你現在是在貶低他們這些國家嗎？我突然嚇到，我們中選會的主委這樣子是在貶低其他國家？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們不要對自己喪失信心。"],["洪委員孟楷：絕對沒有喪失信心，但是我想問的是他們這樣子用不在籍投票有沒有喪失公平性？你只要回答這一點。"],["李主任委員進勇：這個我沒有辦法評論。"],["洪委員孟楷：你剛剛又講說，你剛剛又想要假意，這就是本席本來很想，我是就事論事……"],["李主任委員進勇：我不能隨便評論他們選舉公不公平。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席來這邊都是就事論事來跟你討論，但如果說你只想用這種態度的話，那本席就會比較直接喔！"],["李主任委員進勇：我要告訴委員就是說我們能夠……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席很認真地準備非常多的資料……"],["李主任委員進勇：臺灣的民主成就……"],["洪委員孟楷：我就是希望能夠就事論事……"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席也會提出移轉的，全國性的針對人的部分……"],["李主任委員進勇：對，大家共同討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實我們認為總統大選移轉投票確實有其必要性，為什麼？第一、全臺2,350萬人共同能夠在臺灣這塊土地上面，我們不要有太多的交通移動成本，但是又可以事先登記，能夠選擇這種全國性的投票，甚至其實縣市長也都應該要來推動，但是縣市長是另外的一個選舉罷免法，可是至少在總統副總統的選舉罷免法任內，我們就應該要針對這個，因為它跟公投的選舉人數跟範圍其實是一致的。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們希望在這方面的討論要顧及到選舉競爭的公平性。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然，當然就是公平性……"],["李主任委員進勇：第二個，就是選舉過程的可信賴性……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以本席才會一直強調轉移投票的信賴性……"],["李主任委員進勇：另外一個就是選務的……"],["洪委員孟楷：公平性以及你剛剛也講了，不管是針對現在選務人員其實都已經在施行了，只是為什麼政院版拿出來還是只有針對公投沒有針對全國性的總統大選？這一點本席就質疑。"],["李主任委員進勇：如果這個草案能夠得到大院支持通過的話，我們會把實施的經驗來提供給進一步討論選舉不在籍投票……"],["洪委員孟楷：不能一起推動嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們希望以穩健的腳步，因為選務的考量……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我們已經浪費太多的時間了，我覺得這一點就是公務員在一個位置上面當作為而不作為，我們也都希望大家能夠勇於表達自己的主張，最重要的是公平，所以本席從頭到尾都跟你討論的是移轉投票……"],["李主任委員進勇：102年就提出來……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們要的是讓大家都能夠在投票的當天表達自己的意志，兼顧公平並且降低投票的成本，還有真真正正地讓大家都能夠投票，而不是在每一次都變成是紙上文章，還有，這一次提出來這種簡配版的、陽春版的，根本不符合現在國情的期待，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝我們洪孟楷委員的質詢，主委，會後提供資料給我們洪孟楷委員，謝謝。","下一位請我們羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-5","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","黃建賓","王美惠","徐欣瑩","黃捷","高金素梅","丁學忠","鄭天財Sra 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1月13號的總統跟立委選舉那我就比較直接明白想請教業務報告裡面我最希望看到的一個數據並沒有在裡面就1月13號到底這次大選有多少起的這個爭議事件以及我們的處理狀況以及後續的處理"},{"start":30.646,"end":47.205,"text":"有沒有做一個統計第一個就是在這個首長信箱裡面是有一些檢舉或者是投訴的案子那這些案子我們都交給地方的選委會受理多少以及現在處理的狀況還有這個瑕疵的一個部分"},{"start":48.405,"end":67.453,"text":"昨天的報告其實最主要國人一定是最關心的地方的選委會還陸續的在查證之中還在查證告一個段落之後把階段性的一個統計資料送給委員都已經第二屆我們第11屆的立法委員都已經上任都在做質詢了然後還有"},{"start":68.933,"end":89.245,"text":"總統有可能520都要就職了那我們到底1月13號這一次選舉有多少個投拍票所有瑕疵有任何剛剛我也提到啊就有先整票再唱票那這些事情整理統計數據有沒有影響最後的選舉結果怎麼在今天的報告都沒有"},{"start":90.666,"end":106.534,"text":"可以肯定的是沒有影響選舉的結果沒有影響選舉結果不然我們也不會在這邊但重點在於是說你的數據在哪裡嗎你的結案我們講說結案報告你要講說你的這個中選會最重要辦理的過去這兩年一個是九合一選舉一個是1月13號2024年的總統立委大選"},{"start":111.194,"end":132.32,"text":"主委你認為這個資料這麼重要本來認為非常重要是我們都有在處理是那什麼時候這個資料會出來所謂的結案報告的部分現在有沒有手邊有沒有資料在這一次1月13號到底有多少瑕疵的事件目前沒有這方面的統計也沒有但是有資料在進行有案例在進行主委你不會覺得"},{"start":135.601,"end":161.577,"text":"主委你那麼有經驗各選委會在你講第一時間1月13號就已經通報了啊不是嗎我跟委員報告就是我們那不然很多剛剛委員就提到是說有整票的你也回答也講說我有看過那個影片啊那個不是啦沒有關係啊既然你都有那麼底氣講說那個不是瑕疵或說那個沒有關係啊怎麼沒有整理一份資料給大家來確認因為陸續的地方你又講說陸續"},{"start":162.518,"end":164.059,"text":"主委會不會覺得這樣慢半拍?我們的檢討並沒有做完"},{"start":181.228,"end":182.569,"text":"本席提出第一個要請中選會好好的"},{"start":202.168,"end":202.308,"text":"指揮委員"},{"start":225.305,"end":245.295,"text":"本席今天準備很多資料跟你討論不在即投票的部分本席也看到是說我們行政院這邊現在有送出院版的不在即投票你們現在是希望是說用移轉投票以及希望是說用公投先行我們先請教剛剛你一直講到穩健、踏實"},{"start":246.687,"end":271.913,"text":"但是說實在話我們一直質疑的我們質詢的是說其實早就應該要動作往前了因為有太多的國家都已經在施行移轉投票通訊投票或者是這個對人的選舉的投票你先看一下你第22頁的報告我有看到我們很多委員參加了世界選舉機關協會"},{"start":274.758,"end":303.694,"text":"有去泰國、曼谷、亞洲民主跟選舉國際會議,泰國有沒有不在己投票?泰國有沒有不在己投票?據我了解應該有啦。有,泰國有實施的,泰國有不在己投票,泰國有對人的選舉的不在己投票。實施的方式都有不同的程度。泰國有沒有不在己投票?有,而且他是對人的選舉也不在己投票。台灣也有不在己投票。"},{"start":304.654,"end":328.351,"text":"印度有沒有不在籍投票?台灣也有不在籍投票台灣有沒有全民的不在籍投票?那你如果說要做這樣子的文字遊戲那我們就所以全民的不在籍投票就希望貴議會能夠支持我們這個草案我們對人啊我現在講沒有錯我現在就是跟你講是說委員去參加當選每一個國家裡面每一個國家早就已經施行很久的對人的不在籍的投票"},{"start":329.031,"end":350.972,"text":"那結果我們現在還在講說我們要穩健是我們已經落後很多了然後你現在還在講穩健我覺得這根本就是不想做事啊當為而不作為我們講公務人員在一個機關上面你可能都有下台的一天但是你應該當為不作為第10屆的時候4年到底有沒有規劃"},{"start":352.573,"end":375.85,"text":"當時疫情的期間我們認為是說疫情是最好可以來推動不管是通訊投票、不管是不在意投票應該要來公開、因為施行那時候市民不做現在第11屆了看到了這個立法院新的民意、新的國會出來了才拿出一個簡化版、矮化版、簡易版、簡破版、陽春版的行政院的版本這不是投的不在意投票草案"},{"start":378.092,"end":383.256,"text":"在歷史上是不是有兩次當回大院的作為?您任內有提過任何一次嗎?您任內等於講到不再舉投票就是在歷史上有兩次的總統兩次的公投"},{"start":398.007,"end":399.628,"text":"本席現在要講的就是我們在要求在所謂的移轉所謂的對人的不在籍投票"},{"start":410.134,"end":424.265,"text":"我們也看到我們的委員有去泰國參加有去印度參加有去韓國參加而這幾個國家都已經早就實施了全國性的移轉的以及政府人的投票"},{"start":430.815,"end":445.961,"text":"所以你現在是在貶低他們這一個國家嗎?我突然嚇到了我們中選會的主委這樣子是要貶低其他國家?他們絕對沒有喪失信心但是我想問的是他們這樣子用不在一起投票有沒有喪失公平性?你再回答這一點"},{"start":447.321,"end":457.426,"text":"這個我沒有辦法評論你剛要講說你剛要講要假議這就是本席本來很想我本人是認識本席來這邊做事認識要跟你討論但如果說你只想用這種態度的話那本席就會比較直接我要告訴委員就是說我們不能夠"},{"start":465.41,"end":478.075,"text":"本席很認真的採訪非常多的資料我就是希望能夠就事認識本席也會提出移轉的全國性的針對人的部分其實我們認為"},{"start":480.716,"end":495.506,"text":"總統大選移轉投票確實有其必要性為什麼第一全台2350萬人共同能夠在台灣這塊土地上面我們不要有太多的交通移動成本但是又可以事先登記能夠選擇這種全國性的投票"},{"start":498.288,"end":509.254,"text":"像志祺縣市長也都應該要來推動但是縣市長是另外的一個選舉罷免法可是至少在總統副總統的選舉罷免法任內我們都應該要針對這個因為他跟公投的選舉人數跟範圍其實是一致的"},{"start":515.618,"end":538.916,"text":"我們希望在這方面的討論要顧及到選舉競爭的公平性當然當然就是公平性所以說本席才會一直強調轉移投票的信賴性公平性以及你剛剛也講了不管是針對現在的選務人員其實都已經在施行了只是為什麼戰略版拿出來還是只有針對公投沒有針對全國性的總統大選"},{"start":540.377,"end":566.37,"text":"這一點本席就指引如果這個草案能夠得到大院的支持通過的話我們會把實施的經驗來提供給進一步討論選舉不在期討論不能一起推動嗎不能一起推動嗎我們希望穩健的腳步因為選務的考量主委我們已經浪費太多的時間了我覺得這一點就是公務員在一個位置上面當作為不作為"},{"start":567.31,"end":574.557,"text":"我們也都希望大家能夠勇於表達自己的主張最重要的是公平從頭到尾都跟討論是以轉投票我們要的是讓大家都能夠在投票的當天能夠表達自己的意志"},{"start":583.204,"end":583.464,"text":"提供資料給我們"}]}},{"id":"149687","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149687","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430093215d1e838a2a2c7e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a653e23ddd97f11bf65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"11:34:56 - 11:41:48","影片長度":"00:06:52","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":412,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:41:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T11:34:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1086,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（11時35分）謝謝召委。是不是請NCC主任委員陳主委？"],["主席：陳主委請。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["林委員德福：主委，我請教，因為現在NCC的7位委員中，有4人將於7月底任滿，其中包括NCC主委您本人，行政院必須在三個月前提名新任的委員並送交國會來行使人事同意權後任命，但法條也另外有明定NCC委員任期屆滿未能依規定提任時，原任的委員之任期得延至新任委員就職前一日為止，不受四年期限限制，假設立法院 NCC委員提名審查權審查難產，沒有辦法產生新的委員，我請問陳主委，您是否也維持原來您的說法，7月底請辭返回校園教書？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我7月底不是請辭，我7月底是到任。"],["林委員德福：到任，是不是返回學校教書？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我當然原則上是朝這個方向去努力，我本來就要回學校去，我們也希望後續的……"],["林委員德福：要是難產的話，你會不會直接一樣照常回學校教書？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個我必須跟行政院長報告，因為本來當時我們的組織法這樣設計是避免委員會陷入所謂無法運作的情況，畢竟我們是行政機關，跟監察院是不一樣的，所以我們獨立機關的組織法裡面都有這種規定。"],["林委員德福：所以你還要繼續留就對了？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，其實我不想繼續留下去。"],["林委員德福：不想繼續留。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["林委員德福：根據媒體的報導，包括印度當地的電信詐騙案頻繁，2019年8月到今天已接獲超過326萬件報案，大約半數發生在2023年，尤其近期許多詐騙案中，發現大部分使用的人頭門號都是外籍移工遭冒名來申請，民進黨政府打算引進印度的移工，本席提醒 NCC要做好把關，防範各國移工涉入電話詐騙案件，不要讓印度移工未來也成為詐騙的幫兇，主委，您的看法如何？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不管我們的移工來自於哪個國家，我們當然都希望他不要去涉入犯罪行為，所以我們都會加強注意。"],["林委員德福：好，我再請教，根據NCC112年通訊傳播市場報告，調查顯示民眾轉換到5G的比例是25.5%，未轉換比例達到72.1%，未轉換5G的原因就是70%認為目前4G的服務已經足夠滿足需求，其次31%的人認為5G的資費費用較4G高，確實是如此，我本人用5G差很多，既然前瞻預算補助電信業者建設這些5G的基地台，是有補助他們，業者也應該要回饋消費者，對此，本席希望NCC要替民眾爭取調降5G的資費，不論是新客戶、老客戶都要有更優惠5G費用，讓5G用戶的滲透力翻倍成長。主委，你的看法呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我也是認為5G即將邁入第5年的情況來講……"],["林委員德福：為什麼還那麼少人使用呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為5G基本上的特性跟4G不太一樣，因為5G頻寬很大，所以它很適合所謂的智慧運用或智慧製造的部分，包括我們剛才所講的……"],["林委員德福：我是認為應該站在NCC立場，因為它用那麼多的基地台，幾乎都是前瞻預算去補助，然後補助以後，你們等於是沒有回饋……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，跟委員報告，這個其實在5G當時開通的時候，我們就已經要求他們訂的費率不能太高……"],["林委員德福：但是確實是很高，高很多，對不對？還有百分之七十幾的人不想用。","另外我再請教你，臺北高等行政法院去年5月宣判撤銷NCC在民國109年間對中天新聞台作成不予換照的行政處分，眾所周知，行政機關必須依法行政，因此行政機關在行政訴訟中被判敗訴是很罕見的喔！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，現在大概都百分之十幾，現在都……"],["林委員德福：對，那很罕見。媒體統計中天對NCC訴訟累積達到15勝，15次，也驗證過各界對NCC喪失獨立性以及迫害中天新聞台的質疑，並非空穴來風，證實NCC當年的作法有明顯的瑕疵。過去……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：中天到目前只有兩件是勝訴確定而已，其他大部分還是我們NCC勝訴。"],["林委員德福：你們有勝訴，但那個時間都拉很長。此外，黨政軍退出媒體是全民的共識，鏡電視取得執照的過程屢傳爭議，去年3月NCC主委，你還因為鏡電視執照被列為瀆職罪他字案的被告。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個是立法委員的檢舉，但是我們沒有所謂瀆職的問題。"],["林委員德福：主委，因為你任期將屆，案子卻還沒有水落石出，加深全民對民進黨政府只有辦藍跟白，不辦綠，獨立機關濫用公權力箝制新聞自由，執行行政不中立的印象，到目前為止都這樣哦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我認為這是媒體有意的操作跟扭曲。"],["林委員德福：不是媒體有意操作，因為外界很多人都一直這麼認為，所以你們講NCC，我聽到外界很多都在說這是髒兮兮，不是NCC。我希望主委，因為既然要公平、公正、客觀，不要只有辦藍、辦白，不辦綠，所以我希望能夠公平。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們沒有政黨的問題，我們都依照程序去公平、公正地處理，謝謝委員。"],["林委員德福：好，我時間到了，我是希望要公平客觀。謝謝。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員的發言。","下一位請魯明哲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.886593750000001,"end":9.582218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.98721875,"end":16.450343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.60159375,"end":28.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.85471875,"end":20.871593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.508468750000002,"end":22.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.718468750000003,"end":47.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.447218750000005,"end":36.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.73409375,"end":36.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.75346875,"end":48.782843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.12034375,"end":58.77284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.924718750000004,"end":60.257843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.74721875,"end":76.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.43659375,"end":77.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.47034375,"end":89.08034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.93409375,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.62159375,"end":82.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.43909375000001,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.02471875,"end":105.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.33096875000001,"end":107.40659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.44034375000001,"end":116.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.38034375000001,"end":113.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.38846875,"end":116.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.65409375,"end":117.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.51471875000001,"end":159.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.02721875,"end":159.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.31409375,"end":159.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.78659375,"end":168.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.46909375,"end":167.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.39284375,"end":168.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.64596875,"end":168.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.96659375000002,"end":169.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.11846875,"end":169.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.13534375,"end":169.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.23659375,"end":169.25346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.25346875000002,"end":217.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.46659375000002,"end":182.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.65534375000001,"end":189.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.99284375000002,"end":190.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.14471875,"end":217.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.95471875,"end":229.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.02471875,"end":244.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.97284375,"end":237.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.91346875000002,"end":238.9640937500000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高很多啊"},{"start":277.313,"end":296.927,"text":"台北高等行政法院去年5月宣判撤銷NCC在民國109年間對中天新聞台做成不以換照的行政處分那眾所周知行政機關必須依法行政因此行政機關在行政訴訟中被判敗訴是很罕見的"},{"start":301.53,"end":319.417,"text":"媒體統計中天對NCC訴訟累積達到15勝15次也驗證過各界對NCC喪失獨立性以及迫害中天新聞台的質疑並非是空穴來風正是NCC當年的做法有明顯的瑕疵"},{"start":321.278,"end":340.67,"text":"昨天到目前只有兩屆是簽署確定而已的其他大部分還是我們NCC申訴的你們在申訴但是那個時間都拉很長啦此外齁黨政軍退出媒體是全民的共識那淨電視也取得執照的過程屢傳爭議去年3月NCC主委你還因為淨電視執照被列為獨職罪"},{"start":345.192,"end":372.198,"text":"他治案的被告這個是立法委員的檢舉但是我們沒有所謂的獨指的問題主委因為你任期將屆案子卻還沒有水落石出加深全民對民進黨政府只有辦南跟白不辦綠獨立機關濫用公權力譴制新聞自由執行行政不中立的印象到目前為止都這樣"},{"start":372.938,"end":396.58,"text":"我覺得這個是媒體有意的操作不是媒體有意操作因為外界很多人都一直這麼認為所以說你們講NCC外界我聽到很多阿他們都說這是張CC不是NCC我希望主委阿你真的要好好的因為既然是要公平公正客觀不要就是"},{"start":397.261,"end":397.661,"text":"林德福委員"}]}},{"id":"149686","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149686","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300d0a893b59d7a32777e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a69cc3a2a7c74431455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:25:47 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11:34:45","影片長度":"00:08:58","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":538,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:34:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T11:25:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1030,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時25分）謝謝主席，請陳主委。"],["主席：好，主委請。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委好。3G在6月30日語音服務功能就停止了嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就網路的部分。那個業務早已經停止了，現在網路的部分要關掉。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以簡單講，3G在6月30日之後就不可以用了？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：通話也不行了嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：保留一小部分，其他都是關掉的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我看了一下數字，應該還有七十幾萬戶，這裡面大概殭屍用戶有多少？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：殭屍用戶？"],["蔡委員其昌：簡單講就是門號還在，但事實上也沒在使用了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這可能要請電信業者來統計它的數字。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為這個部分來講，到底有沒有用，有一些是涉及到他們營業秘密的問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：我提一下這個問題是因為權益的問題，就是對於很多可能位置或許是比較中低收入或者是偏鄉的權益照顧上面，NCC一定要特別去關注到這些使用者的權益。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：接下來本席今天還是要跟你討論一下電話簡訊詐騙。政府為了防止詐騙，我們推出了識別碼111，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：換言之，政府以後發的簡訊，民眾只要收到短碼譬如111就是政府認證，這一條絕對不會騙你，這個是絕對真的，不是詐騙。其他大型的民間企業現在使用短碼的比例高不高？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：電信業者他們使用都有個別的短碼。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，三大電信業者有各自的短碼。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那要看企業客戶裡面有沒有短碼，有些也是有，但是就是沒有統一的短碼。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒關係，我想請問你，以銀行業來講，因為銀行常常要發簡訊給它的客戶，譬如信用卡費沒有繳，或者要跟你聯絡、對保、帳戶有什麼問題、信用卡有什麼問題，以我個人來講，我常常會收到銀行發給我的簡訊。銀行目前用短訊的有幾家？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有幾家可能還要看金管會的資料，就企業部分的短碼要怎麼去通，我們有找業者來討論，包括電信業者、包括其他，因為這個恐怕不是只有……當然，銀行是一個重點，但不是只有銀行，包括像55688或是什麼其他都很多，不過就像剛剛委員所提的，我們從重點向金管會這邊去努力……"],["蔡委員其昌：主委，扣掉政府的111之外，你認為全臺灣現在企業用短碼的比例大概多高？10%有沒有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果是銀行就不只10%。"],["蔡委員其昌：銀行大部分都採短碼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，要看個別產業的型態不一樣，像計程車，搞不好它也有短碼。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，計程車是一個，我覺得計程車大概會主動發訊息給民眾的機會低。我們會被詐騙是因為我收到了第一個可能大量來源是政府機關，它告訴我我的稅有問題、我的信用卡被盜刷等等，叫我跟法院聯絡、跟檢察官聯絡、跟警察局聯絡，這一個叫政府的簡訊。第二個簡訊就是來自於大型的企業，譬如銀行、我的車子有關高速公路繳費的訊息等等，NCC可不可以讓這些大型的企業快速都使用短碼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告，我們現在努力跟數位部還有像金管會這些單位有共同要去處理的……"],["蔡委員其昌：你覺得大概要多久才會全面都有短碼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：要全面都有短碼因為是涉及到比如……因為這個要統一每個產業，比如我記得台哥大就變成現在叫935，中華電信可能是188，這個連電信業者他們都還沒有統一，所以速度可能沒有辦法那麼快，但是我們會儘快去處理。"],["蔡委員其昌：就是說其實它叫什麼碼都沒有關係，譬如金管會以後可以統一宣導，六碼以下叫短碼，只要你是短碼都是真的，這個民眾……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有，這個在行政院的防詐平台裡面，我們有提出來處理這個問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我的意思只是問說比例有多高？進度到哪裡？什麼時候可以達到幾乎都做這樣子？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我請我們主秘來說明。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，在通用型簡碼這一塊，我們大概已經針對金管會這部分找金管會來，還有銀行業、保險業，這部分我們大概已經談定，因為跟電信業兩邊必須要……因為通用型簡碼必須要所有業者都承認這個簡碼才行。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：所以目前的話，跟中華電信那邊大概有接洽，至於進度上至少我們已經開過三次會了啦！因為這還是一個商業機制的問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有錯。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：所以我還需要跟各方面再去協調，我們會儘快來推這個，除了防詐之外，其實更進一步建立民眾的信任，對信任產業的部分我們會再努力。"],["蔡委員其昌：其實我的理解很簡單，因為政府做了111，所以其實我們很好宣導，政府發給你的，你如果沒看到簡訊的開頭是111就是假的，我們在農村、在鄉下很好跟這些長輩解釋，但是現在除了政府之外，其他的我很難解釋，所以我的意思是說在防詐裡面，很簡單嘛！在技術上已經沒有問題，你也應該很積極跟相關業務單位，譬如金管會跟銀行之間、保險等等或者常常需要發簡訊給客戶的行業要快速、趕快來溝通，讓它建立起來，所以下一個階段我的宣導很簡單嘛！六碼以下叫短碼，不是短碼的你都要注意，這個可能是詐騙，或者短碼六碼以下的通通不會詐騙，這樣我們才有辦法宣導，不然你在那邊「落落長」宣導防詐是很困難的。科技在走，我們速度要趕快嘛，政府做了111這是好事，但是做了111之後，這些大型的企業，我們應該想辦法看是要透過政策法規，怎麼來讓他們快速跟上，因為這個東西都是沒有效率，它不做其實都沒有效率，我以後只要一開始宣導說：很長的都是假的，它以後發簡訊都是無效簡訊，因為不會有人理它，不會有老人家去點，信用卡真的有問題，你發簡訊也沒用啊！反正他也不會去點，所以對企業的營運來講，它都發一大堆無效的簡訊，這樣主委知道我的意思嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我知道。"],["蔡委員其昌：詐騙還是重中之重。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：民眾每天生活在可能隨時被詐騙的環境當中，這個是人民的苦啊！比其他NCC的業務、比剛剛那些鏡電視啦、什麼電視啦！民眾的感受，他是每一天都要面對這個問題，所以其實這個問題一定要把它列為非常重要。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有。"],["蔡委員其昌：當然我講這個不只有你，因為這其實要行政院各部會一起來做，但是站在NCC的立場上，我們怎麼積極的把民眾的苦、把所謂臺灣的新三害，就是詐騙，要怎麼來處理，我覺得這個其實是非常重要。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們會努力。"],["蔡委員其昌：好嗎？這再加強一下，這個議題我會持續關心啦！怎麼樣來做對民眾來講最有效，我們在宣導上怎麼樣的方式最有效，以後只要大家都短碼，那就很簡單，你NCC的宣導也不用那麼累，警政署的宣導也不用那麼累，直接講不是短碼的都有疑慮啦，所以以後它不發短碼會很辛苦，我覺得要逼大家啦！快一點。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，我們會加強、加快。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌副院長，謝謝。","接下來請林德福委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.84471875,"end":8.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.070968750000002,"end":14.459093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.796593750000003,"end":15.825968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.90596875,"end":17.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.98596875,"end":19.403468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.31471875,"end":22.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.12034375,"end":25.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.83721875,"end":25.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.32659375,"end":26.355968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.934093750000002,"end":31.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.832218750000003,"end":30.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.844718750000002,"end":33.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","sta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後只要大家都短碼那就很簡單嘛你NCC的宣導也不用那麼累啊警政署的宣導也不用那麼累啊就是直接講不是短碼的都有疑慮啦所以以後他不發短碼他很辛苦嘛"},{"start":528.178,"end":528.759,"text":"蔡其昌副院長"}]}},{"id":"149685","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149685","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43000910c7b4fa34bbe07e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a655ea099cd124814b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:20:02 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對不對那你關新聞台就不叫政治干預立法委員依職權來譴責你叫政治干預沒有關係好 我想請教你一樣延續上次質詢陳建仁院長的問題"},{"start":41.038,"end":58.195,"text":"我們陳水扁前總統說政府不該關新聞台他非常不認同您的做法請問您您認同政府該關新聞台嗎我們是依法去處理這個問題大院的法律這麼受求我們就有換照制度去處理我一樣延續問陳建仁院長他答不出的問題請問他認不認同政府關新聞台"},{"start":62.419,"end":80.158,"text":"他那天回答是不認同你站在旁邊沒有關係我就問齁我就要問齁你講的就依法行政嘛依法行政嘛那我問齁國民黨執政時候的報禁解除報禁也有法律依據啊為什麼要解除那當時的所謂的那個報禁的法律呢為什麼"},{"start":81.155,"end":108.546,"text":"委員 國民黨之前的時期年代綜合台被關掉喔年代 如果照你這樣講年代綜合台我要跟你講 我要跟你講政府不該關新聞台就新聞自由的鐵則我接下來想請教您齁您今天腐爛的運用您的換照的權利最後結果就導致新聞台被關 沒有關係我要請教您齁請問廣播電視業者在選舉開票期間有沒有出現過度灌票的情形"},{"start":110.627,"end":122.731,"text":"我們有進去調查調查你當時省紀部說這過度灌票情形請你們NCC來督促改進你給那個省紀部的回答是什麼"},{"start":125.25,"end":154.691,"text":"什麼?你不記得?我告訴你啦決議含請電視台改進違規合署相關紀錄納入營運評鑑計畫換照之重點考量項目那我想請問您齁民視跟三立在2023年7月12號換照成功主委當時回覆NCC的內容就是把民視、三立開票涉及灌票物質票數的行為列入換照重點考量請問有落實嗎?我們平常就落實在接理制度上啊"},{"start":155.151,"end":183.894,"text":"事實上在NCC的換照負擔你根本沒提這件事沒錯吧我告訴你我也懂你啦你回應審計不一回事啦但是真的要落實的時候你就裝死嘛接下來我想請教您請問您這個你按照當時把中天關掉有一樣標準嘛好幾樣嘛一個理由是中天違規過多申訴過多嘛對不對"},{"start":184.79,"end":192.994,"text":"這是其中之一那我想請教您請問2022年根據NCC統治民眾投訴最多是哪一個新聞台我告訴您民視新聞台141次跟台灣台是吧那我想請問您民視去年7月成功換照換照期間2017到2023年一共被裁罰幾次多少錢"},{"start":214.175,"end":226.533,"text":"十八次七百四十萬元我想請問您您裁罰中天是25件一千一百五十三萬元不予換照嘛 對不對那我想請問您以目前現階段中天勝訴幾件"},{"start":228.315,"end":235.399,"text":"你告了25件現階段現階段勝訴8件你搞什麼再審再去搞的我告訴你你目前我講現階段審及勝訴你不要跟我講最後終極判決我跟你講8件是360萬以目前你目前現階段就是這樣扣掉以後先不講25件你現在扣掉這8件17件793萬"},{"start":258.012,"end":258.612,"text":"所以我沒上書啊"},{"start":283.069,"end":293.616,"text":"判你輸啊 為什麼判你輸那只是說評分表大家有爭論嗎你連個評分表的標準都可以搞不定就是你們NCC基本上根本不稱職我知道啦 今天事實上按照NCC主委陳耀祥的論點齁反正陳水扁也不對啦反正高等行政法院也不對啦八屆目前現階段勝訴的都不算數啦"},{"start":311.408,"end":312.329,"text":"好 謝謝羅智強委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"149684","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149684","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430011fa6b0b0e88d1341cfe294bc3fbc1e0f8ba9b0039caa7a6cb86eaca5078d11d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:34:31 - 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各位委員 有請秘書長秘書長好反族群歧視法本席在第9屆第10屆都提出來了但是不被接受了而我認為台灣的"},{"start":29.608,"end":29.628,"text":"提議見"},{"start":56.685,"end":79.566,"text":"77年5月15號77年按照促進轉型正義條例的規定77年民國77年是威權統治時期威權統治時期退府會主任委員喜立農這個同意這個韓府內政部的吳伯雄部長"},{"start":80.609,"end":105.581,"text":"同意將現未利用土地徹銷撥用歸還而且還承諾今後市安置狀況再有不惜公務利用之土地當繼續辦理徹銷撥用這是依法行政依什麼法呢?第一個就是國軍退儲役官兵輔導條例這個條例規定得很清楚"},{"start":106.963,"end":132.567,"text":"防衛輔導退儲役官兵．就業所稀之土地．得依法撥用好 我們退伍會沒有做就業使用然後去出租自稱為委託經營其實就是出租了收起利益違反第一個剛剛講的退伍會的條例"},{"start":133.595,"end":156.905,"text":"第二違反國有財產法第39條因為非公用財產經過撥用有下列情形之一就應該撤銷撥用第一個用途廢止他廢止了他沒有做就業使用了變更原定用途他去做出租了出租給民間企業了"},{"start":158.792,"end":181.811,"text":"編根原地用途第三個上工收益收了租金出租給民間企業收租金違反了三個條款在這樣一個情形之下這個我也請財政部財政部也發文了他不理不睬"},{"start":183.194,"end":210.64,"text":"趙立財政部應該主動啊因為按照國有財產法他應該主動啊然後他這邊寫說為了安置基金安置基金哪是用這個呢他本來就有另外一個安置基金的一個用途啊管理辦法多有啊他才不是從這裡根本就是答非所問所以退府會這個將我現在只限收啦"},{"start":211.8,"end":211.94,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":242.569,"end":267.034,"text":"違反了三個法例第一個違反原住民族基本法因為政府承認原住民族土地的權利違反退會條例違反國有財源法如果按照剛才這個這個洗禮農主委啊退會洗禮農主委今後啊"},{"start":268.041,"end":289.398,"text":"今後是安置狀況若再有不惜公務利用之土地．定當繼續辦理徹交不用就原住民族而言這對我們的承諾對原住民的承諾明法明法所以也違反明法所以在這樣的情形之下"},{"start":291.762,"end":314.381,"text":"這個本席也曾經我再講一次萬一前統治時期習令龍都可以依法廢紙撥用現今民主憲政的時期竟然沒辦法做到我也質詢過你的前任的秘書長去年3月23號我也質詢過"},{"start":319.195,"end":337.145,"text":"李秘書長去年的11月8號到底現在進度怎麼樣我跟委員報告這個案件已經在去年的9月26號由幾位委員立案調查現在在調查中那麼久那很容易阿"},{"start":338.291,"end":340.012,"text":"這個部份正在調查中我不辯表示意見"},{"start":364.94,"end":365.16,"text":"接下來有請楊委員"}]}},{"id":"149681","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149681","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300b0b3ff7a8f1d3f5aaf4279b9ad9aebfdf8ba9b0039caa7a6e6f0bca3cc8d690d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:28:52 - 11:38:21","影片長度":"00:09:29","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-4"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":569,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:38:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T11:28:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":710,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時27分）謝謝主席。請國安局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，你是樂觀派的，大家為了國防部長的話，好幾個人都睡不著覺了，你說什麼？到目前沒有情資顯示兩岸有升高？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，沒有看到情資顯示說臺海戰爭一觸即發或是臺海緊張的情勢持續上升。"],["張委員啓楷：我先提供一個公開情資好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，請。"],["張委員啓楷：很有名的學者趙春山，是淡江大學的榮譽教授，他剛從中國大陸回來，他說兩岸隨時可能開戰，如果中國大陸現在打仗，他也不意外。這算不算重要情資？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們的情資會根據各種的情資，包括科技情報、人員情報、各種人員交流情報所彙整的結果，要判斷的就是中共整體的意圖，另外就是判斷他的軍事動作。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，我不是插話啦！我說你要不要邀趙春山來聊一下，瞭解一下他去大陸到底問到什麼事情？"],["蔡局長明彥：各種的意見我們都會很重視。"],["張委員啓楷：現在二比一耶！現在國防部長加趙春山兩個，你自己一票，現在民眾到底能不能好好睡覺？"],["蔡局長明彥：就情報機關來講，我們重視的還是情資，這個情資可能包括中共全面的軍事動態，陸、海、空、電戰、火箭軍以及空防系統有沒有相關整備的動作，有的話，一定會有徵候，這是我們情報機關在觀察兩岸情勢有沒有升高相關的判定依據。"],["張委員啓楷：兩岸這個情勢，大家大概觀察兩個很重要的點，一個就是裴洛西來臺訪問之後，看起來臺海那個中線不見了、模糊化了，對不對？最近從過年到現在有兩個大的事情，第一個就是你們下令交通部要禁止組團到大陸去……"],["蔡局長明彥：這個我們沒有下令。"],["張委員啓楷：等一下我們好好討論一下，剛才你不是承認說你們一直開會、開了好幾次會嗎？這個等一下我們好好討論好不好？我先把情勢講清楚。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["張委員啓楷：禁止組團到大陸去這件事情這是一個，然後金門碰撞翻船事件到現在都沒有了，這兩個事情如果很具體去看，像我剛剛說的，裴洛西來以後，海峽的中線模糊了，現在你看大陸的船一直過來，金廈禁限制區的海域會不會被中國整個內海化？這會不會也是我們的一個危機？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，中國當然希望做這樣的操作，但我剛剛也有跟其他委員做說明，從2月14號的事件發生之後，以及2月17號中國作出政策宣示之後，中共相關的海事船隻在金廈水域的活動有稍微增加，特別是從2月25號到2月29號，但是從3月以後相關的海事活動又平緩下來，所以我們一直有在注意相關的動態，才會做出那個判斷，我們沒有看到相關的情資顯示緊張的態勢不斷地在升高當中。"],["張委員啓楷：所以局長，你那個情資有點斷斷續續對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：不是斷斷續續，是動態的在觀察。"],["張委員啓楷：你說之前他來了很多，然後現在有點平和，有點平和應該跟最近在開兩會有關係吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：都有關係，都有。"],["張委員啓楷：那應該還要注意開完兩會之後，有沒有再升高、他有沒有再來。現在我們擔心的是，你看他現在來了海警船，連3,000噸級的都來了，他等於是派軍隊來了，對不對？他等於派軍隊來了！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這要注意。"],["張委員啓楷：我們現在是小蝦米撞到大鯨魚，這是一個大的問題。第二個，他如果常常來，尤其兩會之後，他又常常來，金門禁限制區整個海域可能真的會受到影響，你們有沒有做一個比較……你剛剛一直在講，最好的打算，最壞的狀況你要準備。如果大陸一直又來，這部分你們要怎麼去因應？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，所以我們後續的觀察重點就在於中共所做的政策宣示，後續有沒有一些常態化的動作，這個是我們要關注的重點，當然，我們會做最壞的想定來因應各種可能的狀況，這是有必要的。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，我今天特別跑來質詢，是因為兩會完之後一直到520是一個最敏感的時機點，老實講，也是一個最危險的時機點，同不同意？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們要保持高度警戒的一個關鍵的時機點，沒有錯！保持高度警戒。"],["張委員啓楷：你說高度的警戒，那我就要先問，我剛剛講的那兩個重要的事件裡面，國安局做了怎麼樣的建議？你剛才承認說有一直在開會，不管是你去或是派人去，國安單位對這兩個事情，現在看起來這兩個事件導致的結果就是兩岸惡意螺旋一直在往上走，國安局對這兩個事件當初的建議是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：就國安單位來講，我再次強調，對於業管政府機關要不要開放相關團客的規劃，他有他的期程，這個我們尊重，但是就國安局的立場來講，我們會針對中共整體對臺政策以及他對臺灣的各種壓拉的手法做整體的分析，讓決策單位在評估的時候可以有一個比較全貌的瞭解跟掌握，這是我們的職責。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛，你們綜合評估過了，所以你給其他相關的部會作為一個建議，事實上就我們來看可能不是建議，如果你們沒有點頭的話，我覺得禁團令也不會成啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，這是各部會的討論。"],["張委員啓楷：包括金門這個碰撞翻船的事件，如果不是國安局有不一樣的意見，我相信其他的包括海巡也不會是這樣的動作。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，國安局是政府團隊的一員，決策過程當中會提出我們在國安情報上面的角度，讓各單位一起來討論。"],["張委員啓楷：你們負責國安，局長，你們非常重要，所以我才要很明確地問，到底在這兩個事件裡面，你們有沒有給了什麼很明確的指令，或者很明確重要的指示？"],["蔡局長明彥：有提供相關的分析給各單位來做整體的參考。"],["張委員啓楷：如果因為這兩個事件處理不好，導致整個惡意螺旋往上走，大家第一個想到還是國安局啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們會來注意整體的兩岸情勢。"],["張委員啓楷：國安局跟陸委會啊！所以我要很明確知道國安局給了什麼意見，你到目前沒有給我答案喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：內部的開會我們沒有辦法對外揭露，我背負著國家機密情報的等級……"],["張委員啓楷：這是機密嗎？至少要說怎麼處理，這應該是國人要知道的吧？國人睡不睡得著，就是在判斷國安局長跟整個國安單位能不能處理得很好，讓我們睡得著覺啊！但目前看起來就是惡意螺旋一直在往上走，國安局到底希望兩岸關係是平和的還是希望……"],["蔡局長明彥：當然，這也是剛剛跟其他委員報告的，怎麼樣來防止兩岸的情勢升高，是我們國安單位重中之重的責任。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，我講一個比較重的話，你期待是兩岸和平……"],["蔡局長明彥：當然，每一個人都期待兩岸和平。"],["張委員啓楷：你剛剛講你最大的責任就是兩岸不要打起來，可是你現在看到的狀況是什麼？國防部長講他睡不著覺了，第二個，你從很實際的狀況去分析，現在確實兩岸是緊繃的，連一個金門的撞船，我們不要講撞船，講碰撞好了，翻船這個事件到現在都沒有了啊，現在旅行社還有很多人來陳情，為什麼要打自己的旅行社？M503現在有因為你國安局做了這個決定，或者說我們整體政府做了這個決定而有改變嗎？有改變嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我還是說明一下，國防部的部分，他基於他的職責，然後把相關的情況做最壞的想定跟預應，這是國防部的權責，我們也尊重邱部長對外的發言以及表述他的心境、心緒，我們都予以尊重。但是就情報單位來講，我們重視的還是要有情資，我才能夠跟委員報告現在的狀況是怎麼樣，而我跟委員說明的情況就是依照目前的情資。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，這兩個重要的事件，第一個、你是要抗議他的M503，對不對？現在這個事情有因為我們做了這個動作而改變嗎？沒有，對不對？第二個、你說他們的團不來，這個有改變嗎？也沒有！然後兩岸的惡意螺旋一直往上走，這跟你本來希望兩岸和平降溫，達到的效果是相反的，是不是？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。整體各部會都還是有相關的評估，兩岸的互動是一個動態的過程。老實講，臺海情勢穩定對於各方，包括對岸來講，都是符合他的利益的。我老實跟委員報告，過程當中我們還是有看到對岸在做一些風險的控管，我們還是有相關的情資。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，我要提醒的是，我看到新聞報導從顧立雄到你，你們國安團隊是留下來的，可能要恭喜你們。可是我剛剛是在提醒，光是最近這兩件重大的事情都沒有達到讓兩岸降溫、可以交流，敵意都是往上走的，可能要再回去好好檢討一下。當初國安局或整個團隊到底為什麼要做這個決定，這到底是一個對的決定，還是不對？如果有問題要檢討，就要趕快去改，好不好？","另外，520之前是一個最敏感，可能也是最危險的時候，國安局怎麼確保讓我們睡得著覺？有沒有什麼因應措施？有沒有準備好？"],["蔡局長明彥：就這個部分來講，國安團隊、國安局指導統合協調11個情報單位跟視同情報單位，我們會嚴密地來關注中國大陸內部還有對外的行為動態。第二個、我們也會跟國際的友盟加強相關情資交流，判斷中共的意圖跟可能威脅臺灣的動作。"],["張委員啓楷：局長能不能稍微具體一點點？你看那一天他們在問國防部長都已經講到第一擊、回擊的事情。我今天問你更具體一點點，你們有沒有設想過現在兩岸緊張的關係已經進入到準戰爭的狀態？萬一有一個擦槍走火，我們怎麼因應？"],["蔡局長明彥：我剛剛也跟其他委員說明過了，對於臺海可能出現的各種劇本，會因為不同的環境跟因素產生不同的劇本，這個部分國安團隊跟國防部都有做相關的預應方案。特別是接下來的漢光演習就是要去推演相關的劇本跟臺灣應處的機制。"],["張委員啓楷：漢光演習會推演這個東西？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，當然。"],["張委員啓楷：所以都是有準備的？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["張委員啓楷：我們有好幾套劇本，包括可能進入準戰爭的狀態或者是有擦撞的時候、擦槍走火，都是在我們準備的範圍之內？"],["蔡局長明彥：當然，所以還要有一些……"],["張委員啓楷：我們做了最好的準備、最壞……"],["蔡局長明彥：除了紙上的作業規劃以外，還要再進入電腦兵棋的推演，再進入到實兵演訓，才能知道有沒有哪些環節可以再強化我們的防衛能力。這部分可以請委員放心。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝局長。我拜託一件事情就是回去檢討一下，為什麼這兩件事情是這樣處理的？處理到目前為止，M503這個問題還是存在的，陸團沒有組團來，然後兩岸整個敵意是上升的，這是第一個。拜託一下、想像一下，不要這個國安團隊留下來了，結果讓人民還是提心吊膽的，認為沒有和平，看起來兩岸還是衝突，惡意螺旋一直在往上走。第二個、520之前各種狀況都有，一定要做好最好的準備，讓我們睡得著，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員。維持和平是我們第一優先的任務，謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：接下來請吳宗憲委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_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.326,"text":"對,就這個部分來講,我們國安團隊,國安局這邊指導統合協調有11個情報單位跟4同情報單位,我們會嚴密的來關注中國大陸內部的還有對外的行為的動態。第二個,我們也會跟國際的友盟來加強相關的情資交流,判斷中共的一個相關的意圖跟可能的威脅台灣的動作。局長,我們能稍微具體一點點,你看那天他們在問國防部長都已經講到第一級飛機的這個事情。"},{"start":483.846,"end":511.568,"text":"我今天問你更具體一點點你們有沒有設想過現在兩岸緊張這個關係已經進入到準戰爭的狀態說萬一有一個擦槍走火我們怎麼應應?對我剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過啦對於可能台海可能出現了各種的劇本那各種的劇本它會因為不同的環境跟因素產生不同的劇本這個部分國安團隊跟國防部都有做相關的一個預應的方案特別接下來的漢光演習就是要去推演相關的劇本跟台灣應處的機制"},{"start":513.029,"end":514.75,"text":"謝謝局長,我拜託一件事情,就是回去檢討一下為什麼這兩個事情是這樣的一個處理"},{"start":542.109,"end":567.091,"text":"處理到目前為止M503這個問題還是在的陸團他們沒有組團來然後兩岸是整個敵意是上升的這是第一個點拜託一下想像一下不要這個國安團隊留下來了結果讓人民還是提心吊膽的沒有和平然後看起來兩岸還是衝突二一螺旋一直在往上走第二個五二零之前各種狀況都有一定要做好稅要準備讓我們跟稅務長好不好對對好謝委員維承和平是我們第一優先的任務謝委員提醒謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149680","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149680","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300b9b9c0884ce5b83f43c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a65b23da5efbb1608e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:26:43 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11:34:59","影片長度":"00:08:16","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-5"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":496,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:34:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T11:26:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時26分）請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好！"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，我想今天非常多的委員在討論有關不在籍投票，我想先跟你請教一下，這次2024的總統大選，你認為在選務上面有沒有什麼值得檢討或者是應該要改進的地方？"],["李主任委員進勇：這次我們碰到最大的一個風險就是境外介選的挑戰……"],["黃委員珊珊：選務上的。"],["李主任委員進勇：在選務上，是有一些瑕疵存在……"],["黃委員珊珊：介選應該不是你的問題，你是負責選務上面的問題。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們要回應，我們要回應，避免它來……"],["黃委員珊珊：好。第一個，主委，我們台灣民眾黨在選舉的時候其實有相關的監票人員，他們在投開票當天通報了將近上千次的異常狀況，我們也整理出了相關的異常狀況，也正式地向中選會提出檢舉，每一個投開票所的異常狀況我們都標示地很清楚，有幾個狀況主委也看到了，但是我想知道現在有沒有改善？第一個，領票數與得票數有不符的情況，包括很多投開票所得票數大於領票數，這是怎麼一回事？"],["李主任委員進勇：在開票的過程裡面的確是會有一些誤差……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，為什麼會這樣？為什麼會得票數大於領票數？就是他們沒有確實地清點所謂的領票數，對嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：清點的過程裡面可能會有一些疏失……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以人民會看到這種消息，你會覺得它不是瑕疵嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：但是很重要的是他在當場會被指正……"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["李主任委員進勇：當場會被糾正……"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是我們相關的選務人員對於相關的這些程序並不是那麼瞭解，所以發生這種狀況，他最大的問題就是在開票之前沒有公布領票數，最後出來投票數比領票數還多就是因為沒有清點完成就開始開票，這是第一個問題。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們都特別地要求……"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，這個很多，非常多啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：你在開票之前一定要宣布領票人數。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個如果不能解決的話，你的公信力一樣是有問題啊！","第三個，很嚴重的就是，主委有看到這次檢舉的很多影片嘛！先整票再唱票，嚴重不嚴重？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個是絕對不應該發生的事。"],["黃委員珊珊：不應該發生，但是有沒有發生？"],["李主任委員進勇：有發生。"],["黃委員珊珊：發生很多，而且為什麼他們成為習慣耶！"],["李主任委員進勇：不是很多啦！不是很多。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們至少有幾十個影片，都有傳給你。"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有那麼多，沒有那麼多！"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，所以應該要怎樣？拿一張票唸一張，才去記票，才去整票，對吧……"],["李主任委員進勇：對、對、對，檢票……"],["黃委員珊珊：先整票再唱票是不對的行為……"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：大家糾正，他們也不改進，然後主任管理員不處理。"],["李主任委員進勇：當場有糾正的話，就一定改進，那沒有問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有人糾正他就可以繼續這樣嗎？你看到的影片都是繼續做，整理好了才讓大家開始唱啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我想主任管理員必須要負起這個責任……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以有沒有糾正？有沒有檢討？將來還會不會再發生？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們每次都有檢討，都必須提出精進的作法。"],["黃委員珊珊：2024了，這一次總統大選再發生，你不可能之前沒檢討過……"],["李主任委員進勇：有去檢討。"],["黃委員珊珊：三令五申，照樣不聽！","第四種，投開票的報告單填寫不實，很多內容還算錯，連數學都不會加，這種狀況會讓人民對選務機關的公信力產生很大的質疑。"],["李主任委員進勇：這是極少數的個案，我們沒有辦法保證24萬……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以要改進嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：要改進，沒有問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：你連數學都不好，現場都算不清楚，民眾拿出來看的就是你們的瑕疵很多啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們除了加強公務人員的訓練之外，另外就是複核的機制一定要建立。"],["黃委員珊珊：就沒有啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：有啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：最嚴重的是，投票的時候不能錄影，開票的時候可不可以錄影？"],["李主任委員進勇：開票的時候可以錄影。"],["黃委員珊珊：可以，那為什麼我們有一個案子是警察把錄影的民眾趕出去？"],["李主任委員進勇：但是不是毫無限制的，還是有一些……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，依照規定他在觀眾席不要影響到開票，他就可以錄影，對吧？請你大聲的跟人民說，可以錄影，不要干擾到開票行動。"],["李主任委員進勇：根據相關的規定原則上是可以錄影，但是不能夠違背相關的規定。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以錄影在開票過程是沒有違法的，也不應該被警察趕走，對吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：被警察趕走，我們要瞭解他到底是基於什麼理由……"],["黃委員珊珊：案子都送給你們了，你們好好查吧！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們有查，28個案子我們都有查。"],["黃委員珊珊：這次最重要的是有很多民眾檢舉的是票軌的底部沒有封條，自從用了紙箱以後，底部沒有封條的狀況這次是不是很多？"],["李主任委員進勇：我所瞭解的好像只有單獨的個案。"],["黃委員珊珊：單獨的個案，但是影片都交給你們了，表示民眾都檢舉得到，它就不會只是單純……，在開票前就應該封好封條，給大家看完之後才能開始用，他們連封條都不上是怎麼回事？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們的資料就是只有一個單獨的個案……"],["黃委員珊珊：我這邊就有7、8件，我們都送給你們了，麻煩你們也看一下吧！至少照片上面，大概有7、8個投開票的都有這個問題。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們每個案子都有進行了解調查。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，其實我希望的是你給我一個2024年總統大選的檢討跟精進改善報告，剛剛講的這些瑕疵有多少？檢討了沒有？怎麼做？將來要怎麼改？總要有一個完整的說明。"],["李主任委員進勇：貴黨團所提供的這一份資料，一共有六個類型，28個案例……"],["黃委員珊珊：不會只有我們吧！一般民眾也很多吧！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們進行調查的結果，其中有4個案子大概有一些事實的出入，20幾個案子我們都有調查……"],["黃委員珊珊：請你給我調查報告、檢討報告。"],["李主任委員進勇：會回復給貴黨團。"],["黃委員珊珊：最後就是剛剛講的不在籍投票，我想大家不用再爭執，臺灣是一個先進的國家，全世界的科技大概臺灣最先進，但是現在政府對於所謂的投票，你們在110年做過一個民意調查，其實大部分的人沒有去投票的原因很清楚，第一就是要上班、要工作，沒有空、沒時間；這二個是最多的，另外投票所距離太遠、返鄉成本太高，這些也是沒有去投票的原因。當然，不想投票或沒有適合的候選人，這也是另外的原因，但是要上班、要工作、沒有時間占了大部分的原因。臺灣身為科技大國，我們現在可以用自然人憑證做所有的公共服務，為什麼沒有辦法用自然人憑證來進行數位投票？愛沙尼亞他們用數位身分證進行i-Voting，他們這次的國會議員25%是用線上投票，主委，如果我們把數位認證做好，確定是本人的意願，一樣可以像移轉投票的方式來進行所謂的線上投票，用嚴格的資訊控管，包括我們現在政府既然接受自然人憑證，沒有道理不接受用自然人憑證來投票，臺灣的科技絕對不會比愛沙尼亞差……"],["李主任委員進勇：委員也到過臺北市選委會，關於這些問題的討論我相信委員也能夠掌握到……"],["黃委員珊珊：我都明白，所以我的意思是，總要往前走……"],["李主任委員進勇：對，我們要走，但是這部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在是2024年，中選會成立的時候是1980年，44年過去了，從這次的總統大選就看到，我們做的事情是跟44年前一樣，出的錯跟44年前還是一樣。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們這一步要跨出去真的很艱難，所以從110年到現在都沒有辦法在立法院裡面完成這第一步的立法程序……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以要往前走，想出方法、儘量想辦法。第一，先請你給我報告；第二個，電子認證可能是你們擔心的不在籍投票的其中一個解方，以上。"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。","下一位請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-5","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","黃建賓","王美惠","徐欣瑩","黃捷","高金素梅","丁學忠","鄭天財Sra 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28個案子我們都有查"},{"start":271.38,"end":297.872,"text":"這次最重要的是有很多民眾檢舉的是票櫃的底部沒有封條自從用了紙箱以後底部沒有封條的狀況這一次是不是很多我所了解的好像只有單獨的個案單獨的個案但是影片都交給你們了表示民眾都檢舉得到他就不會只是單純他在開票前他就應該封好封條給大家看完之後才能開始用"},{"start":298.672,"end":300.333,"text":"主委其實我希望的是你給我一個2024年總統大選的檢討跟進行改善報告吧剛剛講這些瑕疵有多少檢討了沒有怎麼做將來要怎麼改"},{"start":326.926,"end":328.347,"text":"最後就是剛剛講的不再一起投票我想大家不用再爭執"},{"start":354.541,"end":375.84,"text":"臺灣是一個先進的國家全世界的科技大概臺灣最先進了但是我們現在政府對於所謂的投票你們在110年做過一個民意調查其實大部分的人都是沒有去投票的原因我很清楚第一個第一就是要上班要工作沒有空沒時間這兩個是"},{"start":378.562,"end":378.742,"text":"臺灣社會科技大國"},{"start":405.888,"end":406.168,"text":"：黃珊珊："},{"start":421.936,"end":441.391,"text":"．確定是本人的意願．一樣可以像移轉投票的方式．來進行所謂的線上投票．用嚴格的資訊控管．包括我們現在政府既然接受自然人憑證．沒有道理不接受自然人憑證來投票．這個是以臺灣我們的科技．絕對不會比愛沙尼亞差．"},{"start":443.572,"end":456.939,"text":"我們對於關於這些問題的討論我相信委員也能夠掌握到了所以我的意思是說總要往前走啦總要往前走現在是2024年啦你的中選會成立的時候是1980年啦44年過去了我們還是做從這次總統大選你會看到我們做的事情是跟44年前一樣出的錯在44年前還是一樣"},{"start":470.706,"end":470.826,"text":"黃孟楷"}]}},{"id":"149679","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149679","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43009bd75ae64f2594111cfe294bc3fbc1e0f8ba9b0039caa7a681d98ccfcd6d1fbb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"11:28:56 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澄清說明"},{"start":191.852,"end":219.147,"text":"所以最後也沒有曾經說明啊變成是晚上9點50分據說臺北市政府不借球場逼著臺北市政府晚上10點45還要發新聞稿澄清結果呢足協才在隔天的下午2點發文向臺北市政府道歉一個禮拜道歉了三次禮拜一跟女足國家對選手道歉禮拜四沒有借好場地道歉禮拜五又攻擊臺北市政府但是是錯誤的所以再道歉一次所以這個"},{"start":221.189,"end":241.42,"text":"國際賽事我們都希望能夠看到好好辦理足協也是體育署補助前幾名的協會我們最後想請體育署來說明一下未來有什麼樣的機制能夠來監督包含是跟我們的協會去做溝通那來讓類似的情況不要發生否則關心足球的足球迷對這一個過程來說真的是很不能理解"},{"start":243.061,"end":271.475,"text":"首先我要再次聲明足球協會在這一次的事件它的行政疏失是責無旁貸當然根據足協告訴我的一個緣由是因為7月他們競賽組換人所以在交接上出了狀況所以在7月沒有做線上登記他們承認疏失了那8月的時候當然理事長剛上任他馬上也去拜訪了王局長來請求協助王局長當時也協助承諾了11月的馬來西亞賽事那目前3月雖然沒有接到但是6月的部分"},{"start":271.835,"end":271.895,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":291.328,"end":291.648,"text":"徐巧芯"}]}},{"id":"149678","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149678","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43005bdf79c9c7d592da1cfe294bc3fbc1e0f8ba9b0039caa7a6b5c8fdb204d45c695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:20:11 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11:28:55","影片長度":"00:08:44","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部列席就「國家運動科學中心如何協助運動選手，提升參加國際競賽成績之具體作為。」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":524,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:28:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T11:20:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":824,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（11時20分）好，謝謝主席。請次長、署長。"],["主席：好，請署長、次長。"],["林次長騰蛟：吳委員好。"],["吳委員春城：兩位好。我今天要來請教有關世壯運的問題。世壯運在明年要舉行，是由臺北市跟新北市聯手邀請的國際級賽事，但這個賽事目前好像靜悄悄的，沒有聽到什麼聲音，聽說報名的人也很少，不太清楚我們體育署是如何定位世壯運（世界壯年運動會）？這個壯年運動會想要達成什麼樣的目標？體育署在這件賽事當中的自我定位是什麼？請回答。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，目前雙北的籌備處給我們的回應是報名人數大概是1,000人，他們的目標是希望能夠達到過去的3萬人，啊！5,000人，對不起，是5,000人。因為這是個人報名，目前國際機票上漲，我想這應該還是會有一些影響，但是我們會積極協處雙北，希望他們在整個的推動及宣傳方面能夠再加一把勁。這部分上次在拜訪委員的時候，也曾經有委員建議，目前我們也請同仁們研議再跟各縣市宣導，鼓勵各縣市用他們的訓練資源，呼籲他們的市民、縣民一起來共襄盛舉，這部分目前是在研議當中。"],["吳委員春城：是，這一個賽事的運動選手最多，好像上一屆有1萬8,000名，配合他們的眷屬，通常應該會到4、5萬名，也被視為是一件觀光或者交流的盛事，不過以目前來看，報名人數才1,000人，與1萬8,000名的距離差距很大，看起來落差是很大……"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這個報名有一年的時間，可能大部分還是會在……"],["吳委員春城：比較靠近的時候才會報名？"],["鄭署長世忠：但是這個時候要做很好的宣傳。"],["吳委員春城：這是國際的，另外一個就是國內的問題，請問這個運動要達成什麼運動目標？我不曉得體育署如何來看待它？這件事情好像是地方政府的事情，體育署置之事外，好像這不是體育署的事情，請問，你們對於選手有什麼輔導計畫？國內有多少選手報名這個項目？體育署有做什麼關心？有做什麼培訓？有做什麼投入？還是置身度外？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，體育署目前的角色，初步是放在國家隊的部分，因為這個賽事不是以國家隊來報名，他是……"],["吳委員春城：所以體育署都是這樣定位？"],["鄭署長世忠：因為這個賽事，委員也有提醒我們，所以我們目前的確也希望跟各縣市……"],["吳委員春城：鼓勵全民運動是不是體育署的職責？"],["鄭署長世忠：對！我們目前希望透過不管是運動愛臺灣，還是我們另外起一個新的案子來協助，目前的確是往這個方向……"],["吳委員春城：這看起來是體育署長期的問題，體育署把自己定位在只是做一種專業的競技運動，把所有心力都投放在這裡。對於全民運動的事務，好像跟你們無關，置身度外，這麼大的一件事情，全民運動，讓國人有機會參加這個國際賽事，但目前看起來體育署還是認為這件事情不是你們的核心業務？"],["鄭署長世忠：目前我們已經邀請各縣市，在3月25日會來跟各協會做這部分的推動。"],["吳委員春城：目前看起來，你們投入的就好像只是像公司在辦一個活動一樣，體育署就是補助一些場地、活動設計等，對人員的培訓目前是沒有看到作為，只有一點就是國人參加這個賽事，報名費會比國外來得便宜一點，這好像是目前我們唯一鼓勵國人參加這次運動賽事的一件事情。","另外，臺灣明（2025）年將進入超高齡社會，世界壯年運動會（世壯運）也剛好就是針對這件事情，兩件事情同時在明年要發生，對於我們的人口結構，運動是一件很重要的事情，全民運動風氣不好，連帶會影響整個體育市場，我們體育選手的競技，如果全民運動風氣的整個基本面不好，就沒有運動產業；沒有運動產業，當然要培養運動選手，各種困境就會連帶而生，所以這個叫緣木求魚。對於這樣的一件事，包括地方怎麼投入，在這個超高齡社會，體育署、教育部在這件事情上要如何多做努力？可不可以請你們提出一個研究報告？"],["鄭署長世忠：可以，沒有問題。"],["吳委員春城：可以喔？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["吳委員春城：那可不可以列入紀錄，就是針對我們的高齡社會，請體育署研究這件事情。同時，有件事情我也要講一下，職籃來拜會民眾黨黨團，特別提出了目前的許多狀況，包括打假球的問題。為什麼會打假球？是因為他們遇到的困境，包括職業選手的生活保障，還有市場不足，導致亂象叢生，請問政府在這方面有做什麼努力？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，目前我們是用跨部會方式，不管是法務部、警政署、調查局，還有我們的高檢署，都有在各地方、各縣市球團所在地做一些算是協助的作為，不管是在法治教育部分，或是現場監控方面，目前都已經有相關機制在。"],["吳委員春城：我知道，我知道你們現在跟很多司法單位都有一些查緝職籃不法事件的專案行動，包括各地檢署也有一些防制措施，但這些都只是棍子，沒有蘿蔔，這樣反而造成了球員的負面形象，好像全民都把他們當作壞人。這些相關措施很多，但對於保障他們的措施有做了什麼呢？對於球員的生活保障、薪資水準，還有運動市場，請問我們的體育主管單位又做了什麼？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，針對職業運動，通常我們不會過度介入，但是我們的確也找了職業聯盟，不管是P聯盟、T聯盟，我們都陸陸續續有在進行一些對話，剛剛提到一些選手的權益……"],["吳委員春城：我覺得包括在全民運動方面、運動市場方面，體育署都覺得和你們無關，你們把自己侷限在是一個運動公司……"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，不會無關啦！這部分我們還是跟聯盟積極的在對話，的確，他們現在……"],["吳委員春城：因為整個環境沒有做好，專業體育選手就很難深耕，希望體育署能往這個方向努力，謝謝。"],["鄭署長世忠：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝，謝謝吳春城委員。","再來請徐巧芯委員質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":280,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","萬美玲","葉元之","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","范雲","羅美玲","牛煦庭","吳春城","徐巧芯","黃國昌","柯志恩","林倩綺","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":219,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部列席就「國家運動科學中心如何協助運動選手，提升參加國際競賽成績之具體作\n為。」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":1.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.30909375,"end":2.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.09284375,"end":12.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.41721875,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.83846875,"end":17.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.766593750000002,"end":18.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.239093750000002,"end":18.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.43721875,"end":20.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.090968750000002,"end":44.344718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.766593750000006,"end":65.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.91096875000001,"end":72.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.13346875,"end":121.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.54784375000001,"end":122.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.98221875,"end":132.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.10721875000002,"end":137.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.42284375,"end":142.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.96221875,"end":143.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.31221875,"end":160.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.61346875,"end":165.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.01846875,"end":161.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.15284375000002,"end":167.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.18659375000001,"end":169.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.66284375,"end":175.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.41284375,"end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那我們目前希望說透過不管是運動愛台灣還是跟我們另外起一個新的案子來協助目前的確往這個方向不過這看起來是我們長期體育署的問題體育署把自己定位只是在做一種專業的競技運動把所有的心力都投放在這裡對於全民運動的這個"},{"start":246.949,"end":251.072,"text":"我們目前已經在邀請了各縣市3月25會來跟各縣市來做各協會來做這部分的推動"},{"start":275.067,"end":300.879,"text":"目前看起來就是你們投入的只是在像一個活動公司一樣體育署就是說補助一些場地啦然後這個活動的設計對於人員的培訓目前沒有看到作為只有一個就是國人參加這個報名費會比國外來的便宜一點那這是目前好像我們唯一對這個鼓勵國人參加這次運動賽事的"},{"start":304.321,"end":332.561,"text":"的一件事情所以那另外要問的一個就是這個台灣明年2025年進入超高齡社會那世界壯年運動會試壯運剛好就是針對這件事情那兩件事情同在明年要發生那是不是對於我們的"},{"start":333.362,"end":333.402,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":363.722,"end":365.284,"text":"請教育部提出研究報告"},{"start":383.365,"end":411.907,"text":"可以沒有問題可以喔那可不可以列入記錄就是針對我們的高齡社會請體育署來研究這件事情同時呢因為這些賽事因為這個我要講一下這個直男來拜會民眾黨的黨團那特別提出了現在看起來包括這打假球包括為什麼會打假球是因為他們的困境這個職業選手當中的生活的保障"},{"start":412.327,"end":412.367,"text":"吳春城"},{"start":429.678,"end":455.027,"text":"在各地方各縣市球團所在地都有做一個一個算是協助啦跟不管是在法治教育部分或是現場的監控方面我們目前我知道我知道做了你們跟這個很多的司法單位啦現在當然有一些查緝這個直攬不法事件的專案行動啦包括各地的這個地檢署也有一些防治措施喔但是這個啦只有棍子"},{"start":456.468,"end":481.354,"text":"但是沒有蘿蔔反而造成了對球員的負面形象好像這個圈民把他們當作壞人把他們當作這個措施很多但是對於他們的保障的措施有做了什麼呢對這個球員的生活保障薪資水準還有這個運動市場請問在我們的體育主管單位又做了什麼"},{"start":481.943,"end":498.739,"text":"報告委員,這部分職業運動通常我們不會過度的介入但是我們的確也找了職業聯盟不管是P聯盟、T聯盟我們都陸陸續續有在進行一些對話那我想剛剛提到的一些選手的權益部分但是這樣子的還是一種我覺得包括在全民運動當中你們認為無關"},{"start":500.441,"end":501.302,"text":"謝謝吳春城委員再來請徐巧欣委員"}]}},{"id":"149677","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149677","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300cc7015a9568c9bb043c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a69f750fbe189a9eba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:18:57 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本席先請教一下這個主委"},{"start":28.042,"end":45.916,"text":"這個你們送過來到立法院審查這一個全國性公民投票不在籍投票法的修法重點我認為第一個是對式的投票公民投票第二個就是說由投票權人本人親自在投票日的當日前往投票所投票"},{"start":46.636,"end":47.237,"text":"目前實施到現在有沒有出現什麼問題?"},{"start":77.439,"end":101.811,"text":"沒有出現問題沒有出現問題那這個是移轉投票就事先先登記是不是對事先要先登記事先先登記我要僑居國外的國民都是事先登記那現在這個我看有在野黨的這個立委他們有提案有兩個版本都是關於這個一般選舉的這是一般選舉的不在籍投票那我不曉得主委有沒有看過他們的這個投票這個他們那個提案的內容我有看過你認為說跟這個"},{"start":103.888,"end":125.009,"text":"公民投票不在籍投票的最大差異在哪裡我想不在籍投票的這個推動牽涉到兩個層面第一個就是說你這個適用的範圍到底到什麼地方我們現在的步驟就是從對市的公民投票開始適用建設的在能夠擴及到這個選舉這是適用的範圍"},{"start":128.212,"end":142.869,"text":"另外一個實施的方式不在籍投票的方式有很多現在被討論的包括通訊投票特色投開票所代理投票期間投票等等等你是不是一次的到位"},{"start":143.57,"end":146.131,"text":"本席認為這一黨立委所提案不再投票跟目前我們要推的這個不再投票最大差別應該在於通訊投票"},{"start":169.516,"end":194.255,"text":"通訊投票也有很多的亂象比如美國他們採用通訊投票在2020年的時候他們以這個總統大選通訊投票結果有開了四天到第四天票都還開不出來通訊投票的這在台灣沒辦法發生台灣當天晚上票都一定要開出來沒有辦法讓你容許四天因為美國太大了有這個delay四天這個結果還開不出來"},{"start":196.697,"end":221.365,"text":"當然通訊投票也不一定會提高投票率從美國總統大選來看也不一定會提高投票率第二個 郵寄的過程當中有太多機會可以做票沒辦法監票 沒辦法秘密投票比如說我剛剛看到有很多委員提到說在台灣也可以做外籍人士做不在籍的通訊投票"},{"start":222.125,"end":234.802,"text":"我是認為啦那是因為台灣是一個民主國家我們不會去干涉你說你這個投票你要投給誰阿什麼的如果今天是在中國的話是不是有可能這個會影響到這個投票的意志影響到這個秘密投票的原則"},{"start":235.751,"end":255.826,"text":"在其他的國家都一樣會有風險都會有風險那我認為因為現在在黨立委在提的就是在中國希望台商或是台生希望能夠用通訊投票的方式但是我認為啦我認為這個會影響到這個投票原則第一個秘密投票第二個有可能會影響到這個投票自由意志總委認為勒是這也是我們最擔心的"},{"start":258.444,"end":269.146,"text":"我看今天這個國安局蔡局長他有提到通訊投票第一個有資安的問題第二個會不會說這個在投票過程當中自由意志受到影響這也必須要考量的"},{"start":270.674,"end":276.176,"text":"主委認為通訊投票在未來的時間裡面 如果通訊投票因為他們現在人數多 要完成三讀 請問一下諸球會有沒有自然難行的地方 有沒有其他因應的策略"},{"start":293.991,"end":322.676,"text":"我們希望這個選制的一個變更希望大家都以非常審慎的態度來進行我們是這樣認為啦在野黨不是這麼認為嗎因為一個選制的變更重大的變革可能會影響到選務的安定那如果選務出現瑕疵出現錯誤的話重大的錯誤那這可能會影響到整個民主國家的根基所以一定要用非常負責跟審慎的態度如果他們把這個通訊投票通過怎麼辦"},{"start":323.875,"end":334.919,"text":"希望沒有如果可是他們現在看起來是人數是比較多如果國民黨跟民眾黨支持這個通訊投票的話有沒有資安人性地方你可以在中國設一個投胎票所嗎有辦法嗎不要說中國即便是在我們有邦交國的國家都不見得會得到協助跟支持"},{"start":343.991,"end":344.311,"text":"李坤城議員李坤城議員"},{"start":370.379,"end":398.745,"text":"那未來會不會這個在對人的投票一般人選舉這方面也會適用這個不在籍投票所以基本的方向基本的方向是沒有錯的但是一定要穩健的腳步啦徹底的來推動不能夠一步跨出去太大步未來是有可能不在籍投票比如說移轉投票是有可能從對事的投票到對人的投票我們就希望能夠累積實施的經驗提供給選舉不在籍投票的一個參考"},{"start":400.125,"end":425.797,"text":"我認為如果是對人的投票選舉對人的投票這個移轉性的投票本席是可以支持的但是如果是這種通訊投票甚至未來這個用這個電子投票我認為這個弊端都非常的多那本席在這邊我是認為說在執行上面會造成困擾也對於現在的這個投票過程秘密投票自由意志投票都會受到影響"},{"start":427.338,"end":427.678,"text":"李坤城委員"}]}},{"id":"149676","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149676","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430041a661e6db04c2d4aea18303c979697ef8ba9b0039caa7a658fff7e47292a95a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:10:33 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11:23:32","影片長度":"00:12:59","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-5"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":779,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:23:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T11:10:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":910,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時10分）謝謝主席，有請李俊俋秘書長。"],["主席：有請李秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：吳委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：早安，大家辛苦了。我剛剛聆聽了前一位委員的質詢，真是每天驚句不斷，驚嚇人的驚，翁委員上任到現在，她除了拋出立法院有對於行政院、行政官員的任免權之外，剛剛我又赫然聆聽了她的質詢，她說她想要訂定，也要求監察院是不是針對監察委員的適任與否要來訂定監察委員行為法。翁委員顯然把自己當作五院的糾察隊，她顯然真的把立法委員的權力無上限的擴大，我想這樣一個超越憲法的發言，也逾越了各個憲政機關權力分立的原則。秘書長，你可不可以再說一下，你是否同意一個立委可以針對監察委員定行為法？其實我先說啦，應當請國民黨的委員就立法委員行為法好好去思考，如何精進立法委員的問政專業、問政水平，自己從自己問政的課責、究責以及對自己的強化、提升素質開始。來，秘書長，給你一點時間。"],["李秘書長俊俋：吳委員，這個部分對任何立法委員的發言跟批評，我們都沒有意見，也沒有評論，我就我的職權範圍來報告，我今天是來做立法報告，這是我們職權行使法第七十一條的規定，我希望大家問的也集中在我們報告所提出來的立法計畫，至於其他相關的，有關行政院的缺失或是什麼，我只能告訴大家這個案子我們有沒有在查，其他部分我不便表示意見。"],["吳委員思瑤：瞭解，收到，謝謝秘書長的說明。我想我們公民社會非常成熟的公民，在聆聽直播的這些朋友們都非常能夠清楚的判斷，一個立法委員是否適合提出這樣逾越憲法的主張，孰可忍孰不可忍，我認為委員之間還是要有所自制跟自律。","進入我今天的主題，我有兩個主題，我很快速的跟您分享，一個就是我們如何在監察院人權會的架構之下來推動全方位的人權主流化，另外一個就是我個人在研議跟推動中的反歧視法或是平等法的立法，這也畢竟跟人權事項相關。我們依據巴黎原則，我們能夠成立一個獨立的人權機構，而且它具備組織、預算、人事跟運作上的獨立，有明確的管轄權跟充分的權力，更重要的是為人民所近用，也就是我說的人權主流化應當無所不在，所以監察院2020年成立了人權會，而行政院也在2022年提出臺灣的第一本國家人權行動計畫，這都是臺灣的人權邁大步，監察院的同仁、人權會，大家辛苦了。","早上您回答了很多委員的垂詢，針對監察法的修正案，確實當初立法院在審議人權會組織法的時候，作成了決議，希望是以人權專章在監察法入法而不是採行一個作用法，用一個職權行使法的方式。因為現在就是你們即將提出監察法人權專章的關鍵時刻，我要分享我的觀點，如何讓人權主流化能夠灌注在你未來提出的法案。","我想臺灣對於議題主流化是非常有經驗的，從性別主流化到族群主流化，到文化主流化，我們從組織面都有對應的機構，在法制面都有相關的法規，乃至於政策面可以去落實一個不論誰執政都可以可長可久的相關議題主流化，我想這是一個對的思維，所以我們在性別、在族群，還有本人投入很多的文化主流化裡頭，我們成立了行政院的文化會報，我們讓部部都是文化部，甚至我們也千辛萬苦推出、回應了文化界二、三十年來的倡議，成立了文化基本法，成為我們文化的憲法。本席目前也在各個部會的施政推動青年主流化，進一步要推動青年基本法，目前行政院也在研議當中。","那就是我個人拋出來的意見，不代表這一定是可行的，但我想就教於秘書長，如果為了落實人權主流化，因為我們現在同步在進行監察法的人權專章，如果是用一個人權基本法，有一個憲法高效力的基本法，您認為可行嗎？這只是意見分享。"],["李秘書長俊俋：有兩個部分，對於吳委員所主張議題主流化的部分，我完全贊成，我們應該更積極地來推動各種不同相關議題的主流化。至於是不是一定要定一個人權基本法這件事情，因為憲法裡面最重要的兩個部分，一個是人權的基本保障，一個是國家機關的組成，所以這兩個部分應該就可以涵蓋。如果說人權規範不足的話，其實朝修憲的方向也是一個方法，只是現在的修憲門檻太高。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我瞭解，謝謝秘書長的意見分享。我要再澄清，我不是我個人就主張要有人權基本法，我只是在拋出這樣的議題，我珍惜今天可以跟您對話的機會。如何落實人權主流化，非常期待未來我們提出來的人權專章，如何能夠在院際之間、在部會之間，能夠真的做到進步人權的思維。"],["李秘書長俊俋：人權專章最重要的是希望讓我們人權會的職權行使有一個依據。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們希望在這個會期想辦法把它送過來。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我未來會支持，我們進一步再來探究。","人權政策到底誰是領頭羊？這也是我對於人權會組織一直存有很大的疑惑。人權會到底是上位機關，它是整合的機構，還是它本身也承擔了部分的執行？其實人權會1年好像有一億三左右的預算……"],["李秘書長俊俋：一億二。"],["吳委員思瑤：一億二左右。我們現在散列在院際之間，行政院的人權轉型正義處，還有各部會都在做人權工作；總統府有原轉會；中研院也在做人權相關的學術研究，包括轉型正義研究，本席一直在督促他們強化；國史館也在做人權的很多策展、文件的研究；當然，司法院跟考試院基於培育具有人權思維的文官跟司法人員，也承擔了相當的責任。但行政院的國家人權行動計畫裡頭寫得很清楚，國家人權委員會對行政部門所做成的人權事項有相關建議、報告意見。你們做出來，就是監察院的人權委員會做出來的各部會都要遵守落實。所以如果這樣解讀，你們是上位機關囉？"],["李秘書長俊俋：依照現在人權委員會組織法的規定，我們主要進行的部分是監督跟指導，也就是說如何讓它推動；實際的執行面，應該是在行政院的人權處。至於這樣的設計到底合不合適，這其實過去在國家人權委員會成立的時候就討論過，因為最大的原則是要成立一個……"],["吳委員思瑤：獨立的機構。"],["李秘書長俊俋：獨立於行政機關之外的獨立機關。目前來講，我們現在朝這個方向，所以當時就決定把它放在監察院，是這樣來的。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以這個部分，我覺得還是要把組織定位再思考清楚一點，至少我、本席、本人此時此刻站在這裡，我雖然是司法及法制委員會的新生，但我一直對於這樣的定位本身職能的發揮，到底能不能夠到位，我覺得還是可以思考。沒有問題，我們後續還有很長遠的機會可以來探究，但無論如何，監督的成效要出來。","確實在你們組織法裡頭，不外乎是監督、協助、提建議等等這樣子的一個部分。","因為時間有限，我其實這一part是要跟您講，我長期在教育部門、文化部門還有中研院的監督，我過去在教文委員會，我認為人權……這有國際經驗，德國跟波蘭我就不說了。其實，就本席在促轉條例的修法裡頭，我擴大了面向，把過去的促轉基金能夠用在長照社福之外，本席最focus的其實是要強化人權教育跟文化推廣，所以我下面沒有時間來跟您分享。","我認為、我也提醒監察院對於文化部的不義遺址立法，文化遺產體驗教育的深化，教育部門的人權教育向下扎根，乃至於中研院的鼓勵轉型正義跟人權學術研究的監督跟協助要更focus。我目前看到的，這相對是還沒有做到非常深入好嗎？我提出我對這個部分的觀察，分享給我們監察院的同仁。"],["李秘書長俊俋：謝謝吳委員的建議，我跟吳委員報告一下，我們的中程計畫在去年7月已經出來了。這個部分教育部的國教院已經跟我們合作，未來我們希望這個部分能夠更精進，然後也希望我們能夠確實做好監督的工作。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝您的回答，我會持續來follow這個部分。","最後再給我1分鐘時間就好了。我們需要一部反歧視法，因為要讓臺灣在國際所簽訂的這麼多人權條約國內法化，臺灣需要一部反歧視法，也是落實聯合國SDGs項目當中的減少不平等，人與人之間的不平等要被消弭，國與國之間的不平等更應當被打破。臺灣需要一部反歧視法，更是因為臺灣這段時間，從性別歧視、職業歧視、身障歧視、族群歧視、相關的歧視性言論一再地發生，包括對本席自己所造成的性別歧視的發言。","現在的反歧視法，散列在七部法規，法律欠缺法一致性，所以我借鏡了國際的經驗，加拿大、德國、英國、瑞典，乃至於鄰近國家日本，都有一個專法在進行反歧視法，或者稱之為平等法的一個單一專法，而且它的位階是高的。","最後我拋出這樣的問題，也是我很好奇想提到，因為你們的組織法當中，對於跟人權相關的，不管是修憲、立法、修法都有你們的職責。現在內政部在研議一個以族群反歧視為主的平等法，內政部在做，我那天也質詢了我們的法務部長，法務部正在研議以一個專法來全方位地進行反歧視法，而法務部平等法裡頭、組織裡頭，監督機關就是國家人權委員會，所以我想就法學專業您雖然不是法律人，但在我心目中，李俊俋就是最棒的法律專家。"],["李秘書長俊俋：不敢。"],["吳委員思瑤：對於行政院人權處、對於法務部、對於內政部同步在針對歧視相關的法規在進行研議的同時，人權會的意見是如何？"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟吳委員報告，現在我的理解是，行政院有在推動這個反歧視法或稱為平等法的一個立場……"],["吳委員思瑤：它目前是族群為主？"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有。"],["吳委員思瑤：全方位的嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：它現在是由行政院整個全方位……這個部分也有徵詢監察院的意見。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：監察院會針對這個部分，提出一個我們監察院的意見，提供給行政院做參考。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以就監察院目前人權會的立場是一個專法，全方位的、所有的歧視面向列為一部專法……"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，已經進行過很多次的討論了。"],["吳委員思瑤：是你們目前支持的，那非常好，跟本席的意見是一致的，那我們後續一起來努力。","謝謝秘書長、謝謝主席多給我時間，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員、謝謝李秘書長。","接下來，有請鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員發言，時間5分鐘。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主席、各位委員，有請秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：秘書長好。本席在第9屆、第10屆都有提出反族群歧視法，但是不被接受，我認為臺灣平等的相關法律，兩性平等什麼都有，如果還要族群平等法，我認為臺灣族群基本上還有平等，只不過是要消弭族群的歧視，也就是訂定反族群歧視法，才是正辦，這給你做參考，因為你要提意見。","按照促進轉型正義條例的規定，民國77年是威權統治時期，77年5月15日退輔會主任委員許歷農函復內政部吳伯雄部長，同意將現未利用土地撤銷撥用歸還，而且還承諾今後視安置狀況，再有不需公務利用之土地，當繼續辦理撤銷撥用。這是依法行政，依什麼法呢？第一個，國軍退除役官兵輔導條例，這個條例規定得很清楚，凡為輔導退除役官兵就業所需之土地得依法撥用，退輔會沒有做就業使用，將其出租，自稱為委託經營，其實就是出租，收取利益，違反第一個剛剛講的退輔會條例。","第二個違反國有財產法第三十九條，非公用財產經撥為公用後，有下列情形之一，應該撤銷撥用，第一個，用途廢止，它廢止了，沒有做就業使用。第二個，變更原定用途，出租給民間企業。第三個，擅供收益，它出租給民間企業收取租金，違反了三個條款。在這樣的情形之下，我也請財政部發文了，但是它不理不睬，照理講，按照國有財產法的規定，財政部應該要主動。這邊寫是為了安置基金，安置基金哪是用這個！本來就有另外一個安置基金的用途，管理辦法都有，才不是從這裡，根本就是答非所問！","我現在限縮了，不要那麼大，限縮在原住民族一直都在使用的土地，但是被撥為退輔會之用，事實上，因為早期有在做就業之用，後來沒有了，所以原住民又回來繼續做，像這樣的土地，我們只不過是希望依法行政，但是到現在毫無結果，違反了三個法令。第一個，違反原住民族基本法，因為政府承認原住民族土地的權利，還違反退輔會條例、國有財產法。按照剛才退輔會許歷農主委的函復，今後視安置狀況，若再有不需公務利用之土地定當繼續辦理撤銷撥用，就原住民族而言，這是對我們的承諾，是對原住民的承諾，所以也違反民法。","在這樣的情形之下，我再講一次，威權統治時期許歷農都可以依法廢止撥用，現今民主憲政時期，竟然沒辦法做到。去年3月23日我也質詢過前任秘書長，去年11月8日我也質詢過李秘書長，現在進度到底怎麼樣？"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟委員報告，這個案件已經在去年9月26日由幾位委員立案調查，現在在調查中。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：那麼久！那很容易啊！根本不用下鄉。"],["李秘書長俊俋：時間還沒有到。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：只要看公文就知道了。"],["李秘書長俊俋：不能只看公文。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當初怎麼撥用，撥用是做什麼使用，你只要發文給退輔會瞭解現在是做什麼使用，它一定說委託經營，委託經營就錯了、就違法了。"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分正在調查中，我不便表示意見。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：但是你可以轉達。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我可以轉達給委員知道。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：轉達這個已經太久了，不用下鄉去看，看公文就可以了，只要請退輔會把實際的情形……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我會把鄭委員今天的意見轉達給我們的調查委員知道。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，總要答復我，到現在沒有答復我。"],["主席：因為時間關係，請李秘書長提供給鄭委員。"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分我提供書面給鄭委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員、謝謝李秘書長。接下來有請楊委員瓊瓔發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","陳俊宇","羅智強","傅崐萁","林思銘","吳宗憲","謝龍介","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.2372187500000003,"end":5.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.337843750000001,"end":7.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.25721875,"end":21.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.27659375,"end":48.782843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.744718750000004,"end":54.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.53721875,"end":71.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.96909375,"end":74.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.95596875000001,"end":79.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.06909375000001,"end":92.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.41721875,"end":98.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.22221875000001,"end":127.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.10096875,"end":119.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.89284375000001,"end":130.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.57596875000002,"end":170.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.32909375,"end":204.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.31534375,"end":230.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.45909375000002,"end":238.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.30159375000002,"end":315.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.15471875000003,"end":346.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.18346875000003,"end":320.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.52034375,"end":324.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.12659375000004,"end":333.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.15409375,"end":351.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.33034375,"end":370.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.35284375000003,"end":379.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.66846875000005,"end":376.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.83659375,"end":385.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.31659375000004,"end":415.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.18284375,"end":405.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.78034375000004,"end":429.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.15784375000004,"end":460.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.03909375,"end":493.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.80346875000004,"end":485.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.06346875,"end":540.9253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.00971875,"end":541.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.14471875,"end":561.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.08659375,"end":596.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.8828437500001,"end":616.0190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.1372187500001,"end":621.9253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.3640937499999,"end":659.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.7040937500001,"end":684.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.3584687500002,"end":702.6047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.14471875,"end":720.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":721.09971875,"end":727.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.0859687500001,"end":729.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.43159375,"end":739.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":739.93221875,"end":747.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.5090937500001,"end":749.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":749.26409375,"end":761.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.5847187500001,"end":751.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.13659375,"end":756.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":761.2622187500001,"end":775.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":768.8559687500001,"end":770.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.0615937500002,"end":778.9640937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.414,"end":4.875,"text":"立法院有對於行政院行政官員的任免權"},{"start":32.384,"end":53.165,"text":"之外剛剛我又赫然聆聽了他的質詢他說他想要定定也要求監察院是不是來針對監察委員的事任與否要來定定監察委員行為法吳委員顯然把自己當作五院的糾察隊"},{"start":54.588,"end":79.154,"text":"他顯然真的把立法委員的權力無上限的擴大我想這樣一個超越憲法的發言也逾越了各個憲政機關的權力分立的原則秘書長你可不可以再說一下你是否同意一個立委可以針對監察委員定行違法其實我先說啦"},{"start":80.895,"end":88.845,"text":"應當請國民黨的委員好好去把立法委員行為法好好去思考如何精進立法委員的問政專業問政水平自己從自己問政的課則"},{"start":93.482,"end":118.068,"text":"就責對自己的強化提升素質開始來秘書長給您一點時間委員這個部分對任何立法委員的發言跟批評我們都沒有意見也沒有評論那我就我的職權範圍我來報告我今天是來做立法報告這是我們職權新司法71條的規定那我希望大家問的也集中在我們報告所提出來的立法計畫"},{"start":119.148,"end":121.97,"text":"了解收到謝謝秘書長的說明我想我們非常成熟的公民社會的公民在聆聽直播的這些朋友們都非常能夠清楚的判斷"},{"start":140.123,"end":145.509,"text":"一個立法委員是否適合提出這樣逾越憲法的主張?"},{"start":145.509,"end":155.139,"text":"孰可忍,孰不可忍?我認為委員之間還是要有所自制跟自律喔那進入我今天的主題,我有兩個主題我很快速的跟您分享"},{"start":155.8,"end":169.133,"text":"一個就是我們如何在監察院的人權會的架構之下來推動全方位的人權主流化另外一個就是我個人在研議跟推動中的反歧視法或是平等法的立法這也畢竟跟人權事項相關"},{"start":171.375,"end":171.395,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":191.78,"end":204.329,"text":"監察院2020年成立的人權會而行政院也在2022年提出台灣的第一本國家人權行動計畫這都是台灣的人權邁大步監察院的同仁人權會大家辛苦了下頁"},{"start":205.39,"end":229.125,"text":"那早上您回答了很多委員的垂詢 針對監察法的修正案確實當初立法院在審議 我們的人權會組織法的時候做成了決議希望是以人權專章在監察法入法 而不是採行一個作用法用一個職權行使法的方式那因為現在就是你們即將提出 監察法人權專章的"},{"start":231.267,"end":237.68,"text":"關鍵時刻我提出分享我的觀點如何讓人權主流化能夠貫注在你未來提出來的法案"},{"start":239.372,"end":262.953,"text":"那我想台灣對於議題主流化是非常有經驗的從性別主流化到族群主流化到文化主流化我們從組織面都有對應的機構在法制面都有相關的法規乃至於政策面可以去落實一個不論誰執政都可以可長可久的相關的議題主流化我想這是一個對的思維"},{"start":264.654,"end":282.497,"text":"那所以我們在性別在族群還有本人投入很多的文化主流化裡頭我們成立了行政院的文化匯報我們讓部部都是文化部甚至我們也千辛萬苦來推出回應了文化界二三十年來的倡議成立了文化基本法"},{"start":283.158,"end":283.198,"text":"：吳思瑤：吳思瑤"},{"start":298.035,"end":298.255,"text":"主席"},{"start":315.682,"end":344.006,"text":"兩個部分對吳委員所主張的議題主流化的部分我完全贊成應該更積極的推動各種不同相關議題的主流化至於說是不是一定要訂一個人權基本法這件事情因為憲法裡面最重要兩個部分一個是人權的基本保障一個是國家機關的組成所以這兩個部分應該就可以涵蓋如果說人權規範不足的話其實朝修憲的方向也是一個方法"},{"start":346.166,"end":370.152,"text":"好我了解謝謝秘書長的意見分享我要再澄清我不是我個人就主張要有人權基本法我只是在拋出這樣議題我珍惜今天可以跟您對話的機會如何落實人權主流化那就非常期待未來我們提出來的人權專章如何能夠在院計之間在部會之間能夠真的做到這樣的進步人權的思維"},{"start":370.592,"end":371.673,"text":"我未來會來支持我們進一步再來探究下一頁"},{"start":386.743,"end":415.036,"text":"人權政策到底誰是領頭羊這也是我對於人權會的組織我一直存有很大的疑惑人權會到底是上位機關他是整合的機構還是他本身也承擔了部分的執行其實人權會一年好像一億三左右的預算一億二左右那我們現在散列在院紀之間行政院的人權轉型正義處還有各部會都在做人權工作"},{"start":415.916,"end":437.651,"text":"中東部有原轉會：中研院也在做人權相關的學術研究：包括轉型正義研究本期一直在督促他們強化：國師館也在做人權的很多策展文件的研究：那當然司法院跟考試院基於培育具有人權思維的：文官跟司法人員他也承擔了相當的責任："},{"start":439.292,"end":459.573,"text":"但依我們行政院的國家人權行動計畫裡頭寫得很清楚國家人權委員會對行政部門所做成的人權事項有相關建議報告意見你們做出來就是監察院的人權委員會做出來的各部會都要遵守落實所以如果這樣解讀你們是尚未機關囉"},{"start":461.349,"end":483.107,"text":"依照現在人權委員會組織法的規定我們主要進行的部分是監督跟指導就是說如何讓他推動那實際的執行面應該是在行政院的人權處至於這樣的設計到底合不合適這其實過去在國家人權委員會成立的時候就討論過因為最大的原則是要成立一個"},{"start":483.567,"end":486.889,"text":"所以這個部分我覺得還是要把組織定位再思考清楚一點至少我本席本人此時此刻站在這裡我雖然是司法法制委員會的新生但我一直對於這樣的定位本身職能的發揮到底能不能夠到位"},{"start":511.744,"end":518.166,"text":"我覺得還是可以思考沒有問題我們後續還有很長遠的機會可以來探究但無論如何監督的成效要出來確實在你們組織法裡頭不外乎是監督協助提建議等等這樣子的一個部分好那因為時間有限我其實最怕是要跟您講我長期在教育部門文化部門還有中研院的監督我過去在教文委員會我認為人權來下一頁下一頁"},{"start":541.275,"end":560.995,"text":"在下一頁這有國際經驗德國跟波蘭我就不說了下一頁其實就本席在促轉條例的修法裡頭我擴大了面向把過去的促轉基金能夠用在長照社福之外本席最focus的其實是要強化人權教育跟文化推廣"},{"start":562.196,"end":584.759,"text":"所以我下面沒有時間來跟您分享我認為我也提醒下一頁監察院對於文化部的不易移植立法文化遺產體驗教育的深化教育部門的人權教育向下扎根乃至於中研院的鼓勵轉型正義跟人權學術研究的監督跟協助要更"},{"start":585.52,"end":585.7,"text":"立法院議員吳思瑤議員"},{"start":615.6,"end":620.103,"text":"臺灣需要一部反歧視法也是落實聯合國SDGS的項目當中的減少不平等人與人之間的不平等要被消滅國與國之間的不平等更應當被打破"},{"start":644.261,"end":644.821,"text":"所以呢 下一頁"},{"start":660.966,"end":684.573,"text":"現在的反歧視法散列在7部法規﹖法律欠缺﹖法一致性﹖好下一頁所以我借盡了國際的經驗加拿大德國英國瑞典乃至於鄰近國家日本都有一個專法在進行反歧視法或者是稱之為平等法的一個單一專法而且它的位階是高的下一頁"},{"start":685.453,"end":702.211,"text":"所以最後一頁 等一下一頁我拋出這樣的問題也是我很好奇想提到因為你們的組織法當中對於跟人權相關的不管是修憲立法修法都有你們的職責現在內政部在研議一個以族群反歧視為主的平等法"},{"start":703.348,"end":726.317,"text":"內政部在做但法務部同時我那天也質詢了我們的這個法務部長法務部正在研議是一個專法來全方位來進行反歧視法而法務部的平等法的這個裡頭組織裡頭監督機關就是國家人權委員會所以我想就法學專業您雖然不是法律人但在我心目中李俊逸就是最棒的法律專家"},{"start":728.298,"end":748.838,"text":"對於行政院人權處對於法務部對於內政部同步在針對歧視相關的法規在進行研議的同時人權會的意見是如何跟吳委員報告現在我的理解是行政院有在推動這個反歧視法或稱為平等法的一個利益目前是族群"},{"start":749.338,"end":749.538,"text":"謝謝吳委員 謝謝李秘書長"}]}},{"id":"149675","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149675","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430023c622125da3c988af4279b9ad9aebfdf8ba9b0039caa7a674376f4625cb93f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:10:08 - 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Attack！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，全世界各國的作戰手法都是一樣，都是按照這樣行使自衛權的方式來處理。"],["賴委員士葆：領空怎麼決定？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：領空也是一樣，12海里的上……"],["賴委員士葆：12海里往上就進到這裡面，但是12加12，24呢？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：24那是鄰接區。"],["賴委員士葆：要不要管？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：當然要管。"],["賴委員士葆：要怎麼管？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們在鄰接區的時候，我們海巡署……國軍的情監偵單位都會廣播，說你接近我的鄰接區了。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，只要進入我們的12海里或者上面的領海領空，以我們現在的軍力，一定可以打下來對不對？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的。"],["賴委員士葆：一定可以打下來？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的。"],["賴委員士葆：我們不管空對空飛彈、地對空、海對空，都可以打下來？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的。"],["賴委員士葆：不會像以前2016年那個雄三飛彈一樣打到我們的漁船？不會這樣子啦！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：不會、不會。我跟委員報告，我自己是一個飛行員，我畢業的時候是1981年，民國70年畢業，事實上，我們的是飛在中共的……"],["賴委員士葆：好，我再請教蔡局長，這個講法就是，我們當然應該這樣做，但是講出來那種感覺，就是你要來，我就打你，講白話文就是這樣嘛！我就展開第一擊，萬一他是飛錯了或者船走錯了，也要打嗎？是這樣子嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想國防部有一個識別的機制。"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼識別？你是授權給基層的人啊！只要進來就打啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：還是有一個聯指的系統。"],["賴委員士葆：所以實體越界就第一擊，這個話並不等於只要越界我就打，不能畫等號？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，要看……"],["賴委員士葆：能不能畫等號，我請問你。"],["蔡局長明彥：要看現實的狀況。"],["賴委員士葆：副部長，能不能畫等號？"],["蔡局長明彥：這是一個原則。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，不能畫等號，這是一個原則。"],["賴委員士葆：「原則」聽不懂啦！「原則」就聽不懂啦！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我跟你報告，我是個飛行員，我們的戰備規定非常清楚，如果你今天到12海里，我必須要看你這個飛機，比如說他的彈艙門是打開的，如果他有帶彈，而且他對我的威脅……"],["賴委員士葆：你遠遠就看得到有帶彈？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我當然可以看到，攔截的時候是就近攔截。報告委員，如果他有敵意的話，就我們飛行員來講，他沒有敵意是搖擺機翼，就表示我要投誠，或是把彈艙丟掉，但是如果我警告射擊，他還是往這邊走，他有帶彈，那我就要視同威脅。報告委員，這都是……"],["賴委員士葆：我就不客氣把他打下來了？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們會開槍示警，全世界各國有用火焰彈在示警，這個都有。"],["賴委員士葆：我再請教局長，國防部長的第一擊說，國防部長說他睡不著，國防部長說他常常去衡山指揮所，這些加起來兩岸都不緊張嗎？請問你緊不緊張？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想國防部依照它的職責，對於臺海的情勢做最壞劇本的想定跟預應，這是它的權責，我們都予以……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要做最壞的想定？"],["蔡局長明彥：就情報單位來講，我們看的是情報的正確度。"],["賴委員士葆：所以經過金廈的事件，金門廈門海域的事件到現在還沒有解決，經過這個事情，兩岸的惡意螺旋有沒有上升？有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們都有在注意相關中國的海事活動狀態。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你有沒有上升？有沒有？沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：目前看起來沒有特別的緊張狀況。"],["賴委員士葆：那你打臉邱國正嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，他是做最壞的想定……"],["賴委員士葆：邱國正說……我就問他，他說現在在高原期，然後最近的事情又上升一點，如果這個事情少一點的話又下來一點，所以你是打臉他耶！"],["蔡局長明彥：我跟委員說明一下，在2月14號發生事件之後，2月17號中共有做了一些政策宣示，後面的幾天確實有一些海事的活動，但是從3月1號開始，這些海事的活動已經趨於平靜，所以目前並沒有特殊的狀況在金廈水域。"],["賴委員士葆：所以它是不是上去再下來？是不是這個意思？"],["蔡局長明彥：它有一個相關活動的頻密程度，我們都有在注意。"],["賴委員士葆：我再請問你，我站在這個地方問你的，你不敢承諾，你不敢回答，你的上一任局長叫陳明通，他公開說，蔡英文任內不會打仗，兩岸不會打仗，你說你不敢接招，你有沒有這樣講？你Google一下，蔡明彥說他不敢這樣講。"],["蔡局長明彥：我說兩岸會不會打仗，不是會或不會，一定要有一些相關的條件……"],["賴委員士葆：你Google一下就好了，你Google一下，我今天還特別Google，就是賴士葆問的。"],["蔡局長明彥：我記得委員有問。"],["賴委員士葆：還記得吧！就是你啊，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["賴委員士葆：我們帥哥局長啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，要依照指標跟環境來判斷。"],["賴委員士葆：然後我就說，你打臉陳明通。"],["蔡局長明彥：並沒有，他有他的觀察，我有我的判斷。"],["賴委員士葆：到現在為止，現在剩沒幾天，對不對？你可以講話了吧！520之前一定不會打仗，可以講了吧！"],["蔡局長明彥：不是會、不會，我剛剛已經講了，沒有戰爭一觸即發的情資，目前真的沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：所以520之前也沒有嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，目前沒有看到。"],["賴委員士葆：是嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["賴委員士葆：所以我替你講，你都不敢接招，你是怎樣啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，我們回答委員的問題非常謹慎。"],["賴委員士葆：白話文就是在520蔡英文總統卸任之前不會發生戰爭嘛！這樣講就對了，我替你講，你不要講，「驚驚」。"],["蔡局長明彥：尊重委員的詮釋。"],["賴委員士葆：你說我的詮釋很正確，不是尊重，是同意，可以嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們有我們的指標啦！"],["賴委員士葆：你還不敢說，「驚驚」，我跟你說，「驚驚袂著等」。現在來看的話，老共那裡推出一個新的名詞，過去叫反獨促統，現在叫打獨促統，它為什麼從「反」變成「打」，你要不要講一下？"],["蔡局長明彥：事實上，反獨、促統、促融跟反對外力介入，一直是中共對臺政策的主要依據。"],["賴委員士葆：打獨呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：一直就反獨，一直都是……"],["賴委員士葆：不是，現在是講打獨喔！它最新的講法是打獨。"],["蔡局長明彥：相關的文字我們都有在注意啦！也不要忘了它的和平統一也是現在有在……"],["賴委員士葆：反獨跟打獨是一樣的？是不是？打獨跟反獨是一樣的？"],["蔡局長明彥：字義上我們會來觀察有沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：我都認為這個打獨是針對賴清德來的啦！因為他是務實臺獨工作者，所以針對他來的，叫他說你安靜，你最好是follow蔡英文的路線，這樣比較沒事，「趴著比較不會中槍」。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們剛剛也提到了，中共對臺政策還是壓、拉兩手啦！可能在520前後，它還是會有相關施壓的動作來影響我們兩岸政策的走向，確實會有這樣的趨勢，我們會予以注意，謝謝委員提醒。"],["賴委員士葆：不會說賴清德要上來之前，特別加強這個力度，不會喔？"],["蔡局長明彥：它這是長期一貫的作法，有壓迫，有拉攏……"],["賴委員士葆：我請教你一個問題，大家很關心的，陸委會一直說不是它做的決定，但是大家都認為一定是國安會議做的決定，關於禁止赴陸團的出團，請問有沒有開國安會議？有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：就團客的部分，它涉及到兩岸政策跟我們的觀光……"],["賴委員士葆：我就問你，因為我的時間到了，有沒有開國安會議，你告訴我。"],["蔡局長明彥：就國安局的角度來講，有徵詢我們的意見，我們會提供相關……"],["賴委員士葆：你有沒有參與那個會議？"],["蔡局長明彥：有諮詢到我們的話，我們一定會提供我們的意見。"],["賴委員士葆：你有沒有參加那個會議？你要回答我啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：我們的會議有它自己內部的機密等級，我沒辦法……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你這個有沒有開會？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，相關的都有一直……"],["賴委員士葆：有嘛，就有會議嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：一再的討論……"],["賴委員士葆：你在場嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：各部會也有，業管機關包括交通部跟陸委會也有開會……"],["賴委員士葆：你有沒有在場？我問你，有沒有在場？"],["蔡局長明彥：相關的會議我們都有派人參加。"],["賴委員士葆：你有沒有在場？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們都有派人參加。"],["賴委員士葆：就是你啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：我們都有派人參加。"],["賴委員士葆：派人就是派你自己蔡明彥。"],["蔡局長明彥：但出席者是誰，這是會議內部的資訊，我沒辦法對外揭露，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛！所以我就問你一個，這個決定是國安會議的決定，對吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：這應該是一個跨部會討論的結果。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛！你就一直不講，我就沒辦法下去……"],["蔡局長明彥：但我要跟委員說明的是，交通部和陸委會也都有召會，他們也都有召會，都有！"],["賴委員士葆：邱太三邱主委說他沒參加啦！他是派人參加的。你的說起來就比較模稜兩可，我看是有參加啦！這個問題很嚴重，這個問題讓賴清德很不好做事，蔡英文現在放一炮給賴清德，他很難做事，因為所有的旅遊業者都反彈，這是很嚴重的事情，也是國安危機喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：這是跨部會討論的結果，我們尊重業管單位開放的期程規劃，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員士葆：好吧！最後還是要問你，你認為賴清德未來執政裡面，兩岸可不可能打仗？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想怎麼樣來防止委員講的這件事情的發生，是我們國安團隊最優先的責任。"],["賴委員士葆：你要想辦法讓這個事情不會發生啦。"],["蔡局長明彥：這是我們的責任。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時21分）","繼續開會（11時27分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接下來請蘇清泉委員。蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員。鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-4","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","陳冠廷","邱志偉","賴士葆","張啓楷","吳宗憲","陳永康","林憶君","王定宇","黃仁","王鴻薇","洪申翰"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發\n展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131001_00012"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.45284375,"end":1.7353437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.19096875,"end":2.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.135968750000000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end":212.261,"text":"在這個我畢業的時候是1981年是民國70年畢業的時候事實上我們這是非在中共的幹線的事來我就請教這個局長蔡局長這個講法就是我們當然應該這樣做但是講出來那種感覺就是你要來我就打你那種講保安就是這樣嘛我就第一期稍微如果萬一他是"},{"start":229.813,"end":233.795,"text":"所以 越界實體越界就第1集這個話並不等於只要越界我就打 不能話等於話能不能話等於話我請問你副部長能不能話等於話"},{"start":258.971,"end":285.687,"text":"這是個原則啦報告委員不能話等齁這是個原則原則聽不懂原則都聽不懂原則聽不懂報告委員我跟您報告我是個飛行員齁我們的戰備規定非常清楚如果你今天到蛇海裡我必須要看你這個飛機比如說它的彈艙門是打開的如果它有帶彈而且它都有個威脅你遠遠就看得到有帶彈我當然可以看到攔截的時候是就近攔截報告委員如果它有敵意的話"},{"start":287.06,"end":301.344,"text":"這位我們分析員來講他沒有敵意是搖擺記憶就表示說我要投誠或是把彈槍丟掉但是如果我警告社企他還是往這邊走他有帶彈那我就要視同威脅這都是我就不客氣把他打下來了我們會開槍示警全世界各國有用火焰彈的在全世界都有來來來等一下我再請教局長"},{"start":310.629,"end":330.734,"text":"國防部長的第一局說,國防部長說他睡不著,國防部長說他常常去衡商指揮所,這些加起來,兩岸都不緊張嗎?請不緊張,請問你。對,我想國防部依照他的職責,對於台海的情勢做最壞劇本的想定跟預印,這是他的全責,我們都預印。你不要做最壞的想定。"},{"start":331.594,"end":338.315,"text":"對,我們就情報單位來講,我們看的是情報的正確度。所以經過今夏的事件,金門、廈門的海域的事件,到現在還沒解決,經過這個事情,兩岸的惡意螺旋沒有上升,沒有?我們都有在注意相關中央的海事活動的狀態,目前看起來沒有特別的緊張狀況。那你打臉邱國正啊?"},{"start":355.879,"end":356.8,"text":"我跟委員說明一下在2月14號發生事件之後"},{"start":373.081,"end":377.104,"text":"所以他是要上去再下來嗎?是不是這個意思?他有一個相關活動的頻密程度,我們都有在注意我再請問你,我知道這個一定要問你的你不敢承諾,你不敢回答你的上一任的局長叫陳明通"},{"start":403.001,"end":412.05,"text":"他公開說蔡英文任內不會打仗兩岸不會打仗你說你不敢接招你不要這樣講你Google一下Google一下蔡明彥說他不敢不敢這樣講我說兩岸會不會打仗不是會或不會一定要有一些相關的條件你Google一下就好了你Google一下"},{"start":427.002,"end":435.389,"text":"我今天還特別Google就是賴士葆問的賴士葆還記得嗎?就是你啊對不對?我們帥哥局長啊然後我就說你打臉陳明通好那到現在為止現在剩沒幾天嘛對不對你可以講話了吧我話你之前一定不會打這樣可以講了吧"},{"start":451.337,"end":451.377,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":481.437,"end":485.798,"text":"對,事實上反獨、促統、促融跟反對外力介入一直是中共對台政策的主要依據"},{"start":510.25,"end":513.693,"text":"我都認為這個打獨是針對賴清德來的啦因為他是務實台獨工作者所以針對他來的"},{"start":538.224,"end":562.722,"text":"對我們剛剛也提到了中共對台政策還是壓拉兩手那可能在520前後他還是會有相關施壓動作來影響我們兩岸政策走向確實會有這樣的趨勢我們會予以注意謝謝委員提醒這個不會說賴清德要上來之前特別加強這個力度不會喔對阿他這是長期一貫的做法有壓迫另外我請教一個問題那個大家很關心的"},{"start":564.051,"end":588.76,"text":"委員會一直說不是他做的決定但是大家都認為一定是國安會議做的決定禁止副陸團的出團請問有沒有開國安會議有沒有就團課的部分呢他涉及到有兩岸政策跟我們的觀光不對我就問你有沒有時間到了有沒有開國安會議你告訴我就國安局的角度來講有徵詢的意見我們會提供相關你有沒有參與那個會議"},{"start":590.601,"end":618.945,"text":"就有諮詢到我們的話我們就會提供我們的意見你有沒有參加那個會議?你回答我啊!我們的會議他有他自己的內部的機密等請問你這個有沒有開會?禁止!有嘛!就有會議嘛!你在場嘛!一再的討論你在場嘛!業管機關包括交通部跟包括你有沒有在場?我問你你有沒有在場?相關的會議我們都有派人參加你有沒有在場?我們都有派人參加就是你啊!"},{"start":619.585,"end":622.367,"text":"這應該是一個跨部會討論的一個結果,跨部會討論結果,但是我跟委員說明的是交通部跟陸委會也都有招會,他們都有招會"},{"start":643.103,"end":665.38,"text":"那個邱大山、邱主委說他沒有參加啦,派人參加啦,啊你的說起來就比較慕你能可,我看是有參加啦齁,這個東西,這個問題很嚴重啦,這個問題引起賴清德很不好做事,蔡英文現在放一炮給賴清德,他很難做事,因為所有的旅遊業者都反彈。"},{"start":666.681,"end":674.205,"text":"很嚴重的事情這也是國安危機喔這是跨部會討論的結果我們尊重夜館單位的開放的期程的規劃謝謝委員好吧這個最後還在問你你認為賴清的外來執政裡面兩岸可不可能來打仗"},{"start":685.004,"end":689.614,"text":"我想怎麼樣來防止委員講的這件事情發生是我們國安團隊最優先的責任。"}]}},{"id":"149674","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149674","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300ffc5d642e0fa135d7e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a6e168438cab24f24f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"11:12:05 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11:19:52","影片長度":"00:07:47","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":467,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:19:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T11:12:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":849,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時12分）謝謝主席，我們想請陳耀祥主委。"],["主席：好，陳主委請。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：主委你好。今天大家都非常關心中天換照案，根據臺北高等行政法院判NCC敗訴的部分，主要原因是因為你們當初沒有準用2018年的評分表，剛才在質詢過程當中，你們說有一百多個案子都是用舊的評分表，那請問你們訂新的要幹嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們不是新的，是都一樣的評分表，沒有新舊的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們時間的順序，一個舊一個新嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：發生的時間晚的就是新，原本是舊，不然怎麼會他們針對這個……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，都一樣。"],["徐委員巧芯：臺北高等行政法院裡面寫得非常清楚……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，我們評分表都一樣。"],["徐委員巧芯：只是你們到現在都一直不承認這件事情，大家可以看到上面寫的就是……這是臺北高等行政法院的判決，不是我個人的見解。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我知道。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我想要問的是，是不是有一百多個案子都是這樣子的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們所有的評分表都一樣的，所以不是只……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們問的是說用所謂舊的評分表，您瞭解我的意思就好，您瞭解我的意思就好。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我知道，我們是準用。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個評分表，你們當時所使用去評中天的這個評分表，一百多個案子都這樣。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以我們說沒有新舊，前後是……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以其他一百多個案子，他們未來也有可能對你們展開行政訴訟對吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，基本上來講……"],["徐委員巧芯：當初誰決定要用這份評分表的？在政治責任來說，是陳耀祥主委您本人決定……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個沒有政治的問題，這是法律議題。"],["徐委員巧芯：您使用這個評分表，用原本的配分，是你個人決定的嗎？是哪一位委員決定要這麼做的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個基本上是我們本會共同討論出來的，題目都一樣……"],["徐委員巧芯：共同？7位委員共同討論？在哪一天的開會做出的決議？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們本來就有這個內部的評分表嘛！評分表都一樣……"],["徐委員巧芯：不，誰決定？因為你們有二種版本，誰決定用這種版本的？是您還是其他的委員？具體討論的時間是什麼時候決定的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：法規都一樣嘛！我們當然在討論的過程裡面來講，換照本來就是評分表都一樣的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：誰決定的？我問的問題是這個。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們就是委員合議制啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：你有決定這件事嗎？你有同意這件事嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是合議制，我們大家共同討論，大家同意啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你的意思是說，7位NCC的委員大家共同決議要採取這份評分表，那請問是在哪一次會議上面大家共同決議的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們在109年11月18日，第938次委員會議就決定了。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，瞭解了。那我們在開庭的過程當中，我們發現一件事情，我們來看一下開庭的筆錄，為什麼NCC要阻擋中天來閱卷？你們一直到了在法院上面的時候，法官問：「本件從原告109年6月8號申請換照，到109年11月18號委員會決議這段期間，原告從來沒有閱過卷嗎？」申請了3次閱卷，NCC當時不同意的理由是什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，看他閱卷的理由是什麼，因為閱卷……"],["徐委員巧芯：對方向你申請閱卷，然後你不同意，後來被法官打臉，有沒有這件事情？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上是看閱卷的範圍是什麼，因為我們在訴訟當中嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：來！那對方當時跟你申請閱卷的理由是什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告，如果在訴訟當中，我們當然是給法院啊！那基本上閱卷他可以到法院去閱卷啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：所以為什麼法官會很訝異說，人家向你閱卷，你竟然不准，一直到了開庭之後，那才准許人家來閱卷，是不是有這回事？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：卷宗本來我們就給法官啊！難道……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以NCC當中天來申請的時候是拒絕的，等到到了法院之後法官允許，有沒有這個過程？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：要看他閱什麼，有些東西……"],["徐委員巧芯：有沒有這個過程？後來閱卷了沒有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：閱卷了沒有？應該後來有閱卷了沒有……"],["徐委員巧芯：你也掌握不清楚，你竟然問應該？這個案子社會的關注這麼高，你竟然只是應該……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們上次本來就給法官。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以這個過程我再論述一次，就是在當時中天3次向NCC希望能夠閱卷，而NCC不同意，一直到了法院裡面，法官很驚訝的問：「沒有閱過卷嗎？」然後對方說申請了3次，被告都沒有給閱，所以後來法官才給予閱卷，是不是有這回事？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個個案的申請裡面來講，他本來是提起訴訟，我們當然是先把卷給法官嘛！應該是這樣處理沒有錯啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：如果是這樣，法官就不會這麼驚訝了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，法官怎麼會有驚訝的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：再來我們問一下，NCC願不願意按照未來法院的見解，讓新任的委員以2018年的評分表重新評斷中天是否能夠換照？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這是合議制委員討論的問題，這不是我個人能夠決定的。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以未來會不會討論這個主題？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：未來要看未來的情況去處理啊！這是委員會合議制……"],["徐委員巧芯：那NCC如果敗訴定讞的話，要怎麼把52台還給對方？你們怎麼知道明知對方還在跟你打官司，你也不一定會贏的情況下，就草草把52台給別人，有沒有評估方案，若最後NCC敗訴，該怎麼樣還給中天？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：52台並不屬於任何所謂的新聞台，這個是頻道，這是所謂系統業者，這是商業機制的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是嘛！他就是認為你不應該撤他的照，那你必須要把52台還給他的過程當中，NCC該怎麼處理？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他沒有52台的所有權啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：有沒有評估？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個本來就是我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：目前有沒有評估？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有評估的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：如果官司輸掉的話，要怎麼處理？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：輸不輸掉那是到時候最後決定的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以目前NCC完全沒有評估，如果本案定讞的話要如何處理這件事情，是因為你已經要去學校任教了，所以你就不想要再管接下來的人要怎麼做了嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：行政程序有沒有輸、贏，有各種的方法……"],["徐委員巧芯：這是一種非常不負責任的想法……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有不負責任的問題，這是依法行政去處理的問題啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：所以今天才會有這麼多的委員站出來譴責你，還用表決的方式通過……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們表示遺憾嘛！這是一個政治干預個案的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：這是你NCC根本就是政治的手伸進來，我最後問一個問題……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：政治干預個案嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：請問你們有沒有常常叫媒體去寫報告？你們有沒有曾經讓羅世宏在2022年的1月26號到東森電視台上課，建議東森的政論節目要參考三立的作法去做？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這是新聞自律的問題，還有倫理委員會的問題，這是內部的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：我問你的是你們有沒有在2022年的1月26號請羅世宏到東森新聞去上課，建議東森新聞的政論節目要參考三立去做？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上來講，新聞他們要如何自律，都是新聞自己的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：2022年1月26號，羅世宏有沒有到東森去上課？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不曉得委員……"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼要迴避？主席，為什麼他要迴避我們的問題？我就只是問他……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我沒有迴避問題，我不曉得羅世宏教授有沒有去上課啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：那是NCC請他去的，有沒有這個會議？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們NCC不會請教授去幫誰上課，沒有這回事情。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有沒有請他說要維持所謂新聞的多元，所以讓羅世宏當天去東森上課？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有……"],["徐委員巧芯：這是我們有非常確定的，我會把相關的資訊再提供給你們，有很多的媒體都在抱怨你們叫他寫報告，一年請媒體寫幾次報告？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，在新聞自由裡面來講，我們是提供他自律的機會。"],["徐委員巧芯：最後一個問題，因為時間的關係，請問你們一年發函多少次給包含電視臺跟廣播，請他們寫報告給NCC，統計數據是多少次？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：視個案來決定嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：一年有幾件？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，那就看委員所謂報告的定義是什麼？"],["徐委員巧芯：就是你們發函，請他寫報告回復你們，一年有幾件？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這有時候我們要統計數字，這有時候是廣電……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們平常沒有統計是嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為這個部分來講的話，本來就不在我們裁罰……這不是屬於裁罰的部分。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是屬於裁罰的部分，我問的是你們一年有幾件這樣子的情況，不知道嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個是溝通的問題嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：溝通？我想問你們的是件數？我們想要瞭解的是件數，到底一年有多少件這樣子案子的情況？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個是因為公平原則，我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：請問可不可以提供？請問會後能不能夠提供？這幾年來陳耀祥您擔任主委以來……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，可以。"],["徐委員巧芯：每年所發函給媒體，請他回復報告的次數。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員有需求，我們會去統計。"],["徐委員巧芯：麻煩會後提供給我，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝徐巧芯委員的發言。","下一位請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜",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有"},{"start":221.631,"end":245.132,"text":"你也掌握不清楚你竟然問應該這個案子社會的關注這麼高你竟然只是應該所以這個過程我再論述一次就是在當時NCC三次中天三次向NCC希望能夠越卷而NCC不同意一直到了法院裡面法官很驚訝的問沒有越過卷嗎然後呢對方說申請了三次被告都沒有給越"},{"start":246.113,"end":271.273,"text":"那所以這個後來法官才給予月券是不是有這回事這個個案的申請裡面來講他本來就提起輸送他月券我們當然是先把券給法官嘛應該是這樣處理沒有錯如果是這樣法官就不會這麼驚訝了再來我們問一下如果按照這個NCC院不願意按照未來法院的見解讓新任的委員以2018年的評分表重新評斷中天是否能夠換照"},{"start":272.134,"end":293.46,"text":"這是合意制委員討論的問題這不是我個人能夠決定的所以未來會不會討論這個主題如果未來看未來的情況去處理那NCC如果敗訴定業的話要怎麼把52台還給對方你們怎麼知道明知對方還在跟你打官司你也不一定會贏的情況下就草草把52台給別人有沒有評估方案若最後NCC敗訴今天該怎麼要還給"},{"start":296.081,"end":296.421,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":314.309,"end":329.12,"text":"所以目前NCC完全沒有評估如果本案定议宴的話要如何處理這件事情是因為你已經要去學校任教了所以你就不想要再管接下來的人要怎麼做了嗎這是一種非常不負責任的想法所以今天才會有這麼多的委員站出來譴責你還用表決的方式通過這個是這是你NCC根本就是政治的首勝藥最後問一個問題請問你們有沒有常常叫媒體去寫報告"},{"start":343.231,"end":352.573,"text":"你們有沒有曾經在讓羅世鴻在2022年的1月26號到東森電視台上課建議東森的政論節目要參考三立的做法去做?我問你的是你們有沒有在2022年的1月26日請羅世鴻到東森新聞去上課建議東森新聞的政論節目要參考三立去做?"},{"start":368.257,"end":374.18,"text":"二零二月一月二十六號羅世鴻有沒有到東森去上課為什麼要迴避主席為什麼他要迴避我們的問題我就只是問他那是NCC請他去的有沒有這個會議你們有沒有請他說要維持所謂的新聞的多元所以讓羅世鴻去當天去東森上課"},{"start":395.249,"end":406.117,"text":"這是我們有非常確定的我會把相關的資訊再提供給你們有很多的媒體都在抱怨你們叫他寫報告一年請媒體寫幾次報告請問你們一年發函多少次給包含電視台跟廣播請他們寫報告給NCC我們統計數據是多少次一年有幾件"},{"start":421.428,"end":440.577,"text":"沒有,那就看委員所謂報告的定義是什麼就是你們發函請他寫報告回覆你們一年要幾件這個有時候我們要統計數字這有時候是廣電自行會議你們平常沒有統計是嗎因為這個部分來講的話本來就不在我們裁判這不是屬於裁判的部分不是屬於裁判的部分我問的是你們一年有幾件這樣子的情況不知道嗎這個是溝通的問題嘛對溝通我想問你們是件數"},{"start":444.761,"end":452.943,"text":"我們想要了解的是建樹到底一年有多少件這樣子的案子的情況請問可不可以提供請問會後能不能夠提供這幾年來陳耀祥您擔任主委以來每年所發函給媒體請他回覆報告的資料有麻煩會後提供給我謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149673","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149673","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43002acf253d2654c03e7e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a6508f01eb9e990b995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:03:31 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11:11:52","影片長度":"00:08:21","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":501,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:11:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T11:03:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":813,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時3分）謝謝主席，有請陳主委。"],["主席：陳主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：主委好。本席過去也在媒體服務，我想新聞媒體的自由絕對是應該中立，不受到政治干預。NCC作為一個獨立機關，客觀中立地處理媒體還有傳播事業的規範，我想這是主委跟我們團隊應該堅守的一個原則。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，剛剛委員會表決通過了一個譴責案，也有所謂的一個調閱小組，針對這個事情主委本身有什麼看法？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，基本上就鏡電視這個部分，我們在上屆上個會期已經進行了5次專案報告。鏡電視這個部分，當時當然因為他們可能公司治理內部的這些股東，或者是有一些不同的對公司治理層面的爭論，那NCC作為一個獨立機關，我們本來就不會去介入所謂公司不同之間，對整個公司經營權的這種所謂的爭議或者爭奪也好，這個才是我們獨立機關應該要去做的，就是尊重言論自由、尊重新聞自由的前提下去處理這個議題。"],["徐委員富癸：主委也多次表達，7月份任期到了之後就不再續任。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["徐委員富癸：我想主委跟團隊也要繼續加油，國人對NCC有很大的期待。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["徐委員富癸：本席接著要針對所謂的詐騙部分再請教主委。之前有多位委員提到魔方移動公司跟中華電信的關係，這部分NCC調查的狀況到底是怎麼一回事？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們關於魔方的這個議題，我記得是雲林地檢在查相關的詐騙案裡面所查出的另外一個部分。魔方這個部分來講，可能涉及國際漫遊卡的議題，我們也找相關的像中華電信，魔方這個可能是不是企客關係，對於他們KYC的落實有沒有去清查，那為什麼會發生這種事情？對於檢調機關的查詢部分，像中華電信也好，像魔方也好，我們都請他說明。至於因為有一些是屬於所謂偵查不公開的部分，那我們手頭也沒有相關的資料，所以我們目前進行的是一種行政調查。"],["徐委員富癸：我們是不是在2021年已經廢止了他的許可？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，魔方以前基本上來講，原來的電信法裡面有所謂一類電信跟二類電信的分類方法，後來我們電信管理法以後，這種分類已經沒有了。所以原來的這些二類電信業者，以前是要我們許可制，現在變成採自願登記制。"],["徐委員富癸：本席還是要求NCC趕快調查清楚，我想大家對這個都有一些疑慮，應該也要對外解釋清楚，避免大家產生誤解。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["徐委員富癸：針對所謂的詐騙案件，電信業者也很無辜地表達他們其實有很多的門號，最後成為詐騙集團的犯罪工具。多位檢察官也表達對NCC跟電信業者的不滿，認為我們電信業者沒有做好所謂把關的動作。甚至有檢察官反映，去年1月到3月，大陸來臺的觀光客僅有二萬九千多人，但是國內五大電信業者提供給大陸人士來臺的漫遊門號竟然高達100萬個以上，這個NCC瞭解的狀況是怎麼樣？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告，這個我們在上會期也說明得很清楚，基本上那個統計數字來講應該沒有那麼多的數量，可能比如漫遊進來，它可能會漫遊到中華電信，同時也可能會漫遊到台哥大或是遠傳，因為它會移動。所以這個部分很多都是所謂重複計算的問題，我們去年的報告裡面也有說到這個部分。像這種情況有沒有可能詐騙集團去申辦門號的部分，我們都配合檢調機關去處理。"],["徐委員富癸：因為打詐也是現在的國安問題。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然，是。"],["徐委員富癸：檢調也疲於奔命，NCC作為主管機關也應該要負起相關的責任。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["徐委員富癸：目前我還是要提醒NCC，過去3年針對電信業者違規販賣門號的裁罰案件才22件，所以造成檢察官也有很多的雜音跟不滿。NCC針對所謂大量販售門號的SOP部分，是不是有一個怎麼樣具體的作為？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有，我們是依照電信管理法，還有以前關於原來的二類部分，是依照原來的電信法去裁罰。簡單來講，就是他沒有落實KYC造成可能有詐欺的案子，電話號碼被用到詐欺的手段裡面去，我們有進行裁處。比如以前的台灣之星，我們裁處了1,600萬以上。所以這個部分，只要他違規事實情節清楚而且有確實的證據，我們還是予以重罰。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，這部分是不是我們在2個月之內，給本席辦公室一個完整的檢討報告，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，我們這個給委員。"],["徐委員富癸：這部分我想國人大家都很關心。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，上個禮拜針對遠距醫療的部分，我們有請教過數位部的唐部長，今天也請教一下主委。因為對外我們都跟國人講，我們5G的涵蓋率非常地高，到達96%，但根據本席的瞭解，屏東的涵蓋率卻沒有一個很明顯的數字。我請教主委，屏東目前的涵蓋率大概是有多少？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告，基本上要看是都會地區還是偏鄉地區，屏東也不全部都是所謂的偏鄉，比如以屏東市來講，它也是都會地區，那各地有各地不同的涵蓋率。剛才委員所關心的遠距醫療，我也實地去小琉球看過，其實他們遠距醫療，在電信業者跟地方衛生主管機關的通力合作之下，有一個不錯的成果，那這個部分來講，為什麼5G的滲透率會比較低？那是因為5G的特性跟4G不太一樣，5G基本上來講它的頻寬比較大，所以很適合做這種所謂智慧醫療或是相關智慧城市的應用。那以涵蓋率的部分來講的話，我們會請我們的同仁把這個涵蓋率，如果委員有這個需要，我們提供給委員瞭解。"],["徐委員富癸：好，這部分還是要請主委跟我們團隊要加油，因為看起來目前的滲透率才差不多三成左右，我想對於我們屏東很多偏鄉來講，遠距醫療是非常重要的一個需求，這部分要請主委跟數位部一起來努力，強化這個部分。本席也調閱了各個業者自己做的4G跟5G的信號涵蓋率地區，看起來屏東縣幾乎還是4G居多，跟我們所謂的5G高涵蓋率還是有落差，這部分請問主委怎麼樣再要求我們業者再強化？這部分是不是2個月內可以給我們辦公室一個完整的說明？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，我們會督促業者，尤其在偏鄉有遠距醫療的需求，或在其他有關於所謂智慧應用的部分，我們會督促業者持續加強建設，當然現在有很多所謂關鍵基礎設施的部分已經移到數位部去，但我們會跟數位部共同合作來處理。"],["徐委員富癸：對，這我清楚，但本席還是希望NCC能夠跟數位部密切合作，因為畢竟電信業者還是比較聽我們的，而不是聽數位部的，所以這部分還是請主委能夠重視一下屏東整個遠距醫療的品質跟建置的速度，本席的質詢到這邊結束，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","下一位請徐委員巧芯發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.11034375,"end":7.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.574093750000001,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.77971875,"end":15.235343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.31971875,"end":40.024718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.77471875,"end":20.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.31221875,"end":36.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.85221875,"end":36.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.26096875,"end":47.837843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.837843750000005,"end":55.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.30909375,"end":66.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.63659375,"end":66.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.58159375000001,"end":74.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.80409375,"end":75.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.41159375000001,"end":77.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.62221875,"end":84.67596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.67596875000001,"end":111.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.96284375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主委好 主委本席過去也在媒體服務那我想新聞媒體的自由絕對是應該中立不受到政治干預那我們NCC作為一個獨立機關客觀中立的處理媒體還有傳播事業的一個規範我想這是應該主委跟我們團隊這個應該堅守的一個原則"},{"start":37.651,"end":65.483,"text":"主委,剛剛委員會有表決通過了一個譴責案也有一個所謂的一個調閱小組那針對這個事情,主委本身有什麼看法?包委員,基本上就監獵室這個部分我們在上屆上個會期來講的話已經進行了5次的專案報告那監獵室這個部分來講的話當時當然因為他們可能公司治理內部的這些股東或者是說有一些不同的那個對公司治理這邊的爭論"},{"start":66.724,"end":83.249,"text":"那NCC作為一個獨立機關我們本來就不會去介入所謂公私不統之間對整個公私經營權的這種所謂的爭議或者爭奪也好那這個才是我們獨立機關應該要去做的就是說尊重言論自由尊重新聞自由的前提下去處理這個議題"},{"start":84.81,"end":110.78,"text":"那我想主委也有多次表達說7月份任期到了之後就不再續任那我想主委跟團隊也要繼續加油我想這個部分我想國人對我們NCC有很大的期待那本席接著要針對所謂的一個詐騙的部分再請教一下主委就剛剛之前我們有多位委員提到所謂一個魔方移動跟中華電信的一個關係那這部分"},{"start":112.04,"end":138.132,"text":"NCC的調查的狀況到底是怎麼一回事我們關於魔方這個議題來講的話這個是在我覺得是雲林地檢在查這相關的詐騙案裡面所查出的另外一個部分那魔方這個部分來講的話這可能涉及這個國際漫遊卡這個議題我們也找相關的像中華電信這可能有魔方這可能是不是企客關係對他們這個KYC落實有沒有去清查那為什麼會發生這種事情"},{"start":138.612,"end":153.235,"text":"那對於這個檢調機關的這些查詢的部分來講我們也像中華電信也好像魔方也好我們都請他說明那至於因為有一些是屬於所謂偵查不公開的部分那我們相關也沒有所有的手頭資料所以我們目前進行的是用行政調查"},{"start":153.976,"end":174.069,"text":"主委那我們是不是在2021年已經廢止了它的許可沒有那個模仿以前是基本上來講是我們當原來的電信法裡面有說一類電信跟二類電信的分類方法後來我們電信管理法以後這個分類已經沒有了那所以說原來的這些二類電信業者以前是要我們許可制現在變成採自願登記制"},{"start":177.111,"end":186.142,"text":"本期還是要求我們NCC趕快調查清楚我想大家對這個都有一些的疑慮那應該要對外解釋清楚避免大家產生一個誤解"},{"start":187.096,"end":208.014,"text":"那針對所謂的這個詐騙的案件那電信業者我想也很無辜的表達說他們其實有很多的門號最後成為我們詐騙集團一個犯罪的工具那多位檢察官也表達對NCC跟電信業者的不滿認為我們電信業者沒有做好所謂一個把關的動作那甚至有檢察官反映說"},{"start":209.835,"end":224.792,"text":"去年的一月到三月我們大陸來台的觀光客僅有兩萬九千多人但是國內五大變性業者提供給大陸人士來台的一個漫遊門號竟然高達一百萬隻以上那這個狀況我們NCC了解的狀況是怎麼樣?"},{"start":225.733,"end":248.386,"text":"各位報告一下 這個我們在商會其實說也說明清楚就是說基本上那個統計數字來講的話應該沒有那麼多的數量那可能是說因為比如說漫遊進來它可能會漫遊到中華電信也同時可能會漫遊到台客大或是那個遠傳因為它會移動嘛所以這個部分來講很多都是所謂重複計算的問題我們這個去年的報告裡面也有說到這個部分"},{"start":249.026,"end":254.073,"text":"我們也希望像這種情況有沒有可能有詐騙集團去申辦這個門號的部分我們都配合檢調機關去處理"},{"start":258.037,"end":283.212,"text":"我想因為這個打炸也是我們現在國安問題那我想檢調也披於半面那NCC作為我們的一個主管機關也應該要負起應該相關的責任那我想目前我還是要提醒我們的NCC那我們過去三年針對我們電信業者違規販賣門號的裁發案件才22件那所以造成檢察官也有很多的雜音跟不滿"},{"start":284.133,"end":298.663,"text":"那所謂NCC針對所謂的一個大量販售門號的SOP的部分是不是有一個怎麼樣具體的一個作為有我們是依照電信管理法還有以前那個關於這些所謂原來的二類這不是依照原來的電信法去採訪"},{"start":300.564,"end":320.775,"text":"簡單來講就是說他沒有落實KYC造成這個所謂的有可能有這種詐欺案子被這個電話號碼被用到詐欺的手段裡面去我們有去進行採取比如說以前我們那個臺灣之心我們才採取1600萬以上所以這個部分來講我們還是會下說只要他違規事實情節清楚而且有確實的證據我們還會還是予以重罰"},{"start":323.837,"end":332.635,"text":"主委那這部分是不是我們在兩個月之內給本席的辦公室一個完整的檢討報告好不好我們這個給委員這部分我想我們國人大家都很關心"},{"start":334.042,"end":363.377,"text":"那另外在針對上個禮拜或針對我們的這個遠距醫療的部分我們有請教過我們數位部的唐部長那我想今天也請教一下主委那因為對對外來講我們都跟國人講說我們5G的涵蓋率非常的高到達96%但是根據本席的了解我們屏東的涵蓋率確實是沒有一個很明顯的一個數字那我請教一下主委屏東目前的涵蓋率大概是有多少"},{"start":363.977,"end":387.342,"text":"各位委員報告基本上來講是都會地區還是偏鄉地區我們屏東也不全部都是所謂的偏鄉比如說以屏東市來講它也是都會地區那各地有各地不同的涵蓋率那剛才委員所關心的這個遠距醫療我實際是去過小琉球去看過其實他們遠距醫療在電信業者跟我們地方的這個衛生主管機關在通力合作之下有一個不錯的成果"},{"start":387.862,"end":411.973,"text":"那這個部分來講為什麼5G的涵蓋率會比較那個就是說勝率會比較低那是因為5G的特性跟實際不太一樣5G基本上來講它的頻寬的比較大所以很適合做這種所謂智慧醫療或是智慧相關智慧程式的這個運用那這個涵蓋率的部分來講的話我們會請我們的那個同仁把這個涵蓋率如果委員有這個需要我們提供給委員了解"},{"start":412.693,"end":432.045,"text":"這部分還是要請主委跟我們團隊要加油因為看起來目前的滲透率才差不多三成左右那我想對於我們這個屏東這個很多偏鄉的來講這個遠距醫療是非常重要的一個需求這部分要請主委跟我們數位部我們一起來努力強化這個部分"},{"start":433.928,"end":448.427,"text":"那本席也調閱了各個業者自己做的4G跟5G一個信號涵蓋率的地區那看起來屏東縣幾乎還是4G居多啦跟我們所謂的這個高5G的高涵蓋率還是有落差那這部分"},{"start":449.868,"end":475.698,"text":"請問主委怎麼樣再要求我們業者再強化這部分是不是可以給我們的辦公室一個兩個月之前一個完整的一個數碼我們會督促業者尤其在偏鄉有比較遠距醫療需求或在其他有關於這個所謂資訊應用的部分我們會督促業者持續加強這個建設當然有些現在很多的這個所謂的關鍵基礎設施這部分已經移到數位部去但我們會數位部共同合作來處理謝謝"},{"start":477.218,"end":498.51,"text":"這我清楚但是本期還是希望我們NCC能夠跟我們數位部能夠密切合作畢竟這個是我們電信業者也是比較聽我們的不會聽數位部的所以這部分還是請主委這邊能夠重視一下我們屏東整個醫療遠距醫療的品質跟建制的速度本期的質詢到這邊結束謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149672","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149672","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300b4a4f14ab8aacafd7e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a628a6dcfce92d83dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"10:52:09 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11:03:21","影片長度":"00:11:12","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":672,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:03:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:52:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":765,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（10時52分）謝謝召委，報告召委，在進行詢答之前，有個議事程序也是要提醒召委，今天沒有報告，但是要補充資料，這個已經形同書面報告，要列入公報，請主秘依照議事程序來做處理，以上。請陳主委。"],["主席：好，陳主委請。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：主委，民眾對於電信網路的相關詐欺案件一直深惡痛絕，也造成民眾財產相關的一些重大損失，我們來看NCC所提供的相關資料，即2023一些打詐措施的成效，攔阻有1,850萬通的境外竄改電話，也攔阻了大概800萬封的惡意簡訊，過去我們交通委員會具體要求對於國際來話實施語音警示之後，國際的來話數減少了95%，攔阻虛假的國際漫遊電話也達到70%以上，至於裁處，NCC也有針對這種客戶確認（KYC），相關業者沒有落實KYC的案件裁處了20件，也裁罰了二千多萬元，行政檢查39次。","我們看到Whoscall也有這些相關的統計數據，不過我們要提醒主委，這種電信網路的詐欺還是在迅速成長，這三年來地檢署詐欺案件的統計都在快速的增加，然後電信網路詐欺案件的數量統計也是增加，去（2023）年關於電信詐欺的這些其年增率相對於2021到2022增加31.8%，雖然2023有下降到18.4%，但也仍然增加了將近兩成。電信網路詐欺案件當然包括電信、網路、簡訊等等，件數非常的多，雖然有一點小小的壓制，但是民眾無感，因為件數還是非常的多，我們有什麼更精進的作為？來，說明一下。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，關於電信還有網路詐欺的成長數的確非常的快，所以政府跨部會在行政院的平臺之下，各個部會透過修法、透過各種所謂的監理機制來處理。你剛才已經講到NCC有很多的作為，剛才也有委員提到現在面臨了另外一個比較新型態的、就是AI的部分，這個部分我們會繼續努力，也會跟檢調機關配合，透過AI可以繼續去壓制降低犯罪件數。","除此之外很重要的是，我們向來的作法，第一個是就源處理，就是這些相關的攔阻或警示，第二個是透過落實KYC的部分，就是下游的這些管制，請電信業者就這些相關的立法，包括落實KYC制度還有落實相關的指引去處理。另外一個是簡訊的部分，我們也是請大的電信業即所謂的手機業者，包括Google、Apple，就這個部分來講的話……"],["李委員昆澤：主委剛才提到KYC嘛？就是客戶確認know your customer，我覺得這個部分的螺絲已經鬆動了，我們看看近期的海峽電信跟魔方移動，他們都是屬於二類電信事業，承租網路、電信訊號，提供給民眾服務，海峽電信所販售的號碼是由中華電信所發配，海峽電信提供7間企業客戶8,350個門號都沒有落實KYC，這個部分當然NCC有做相關的裁罰，魔方移動也是一樣。我們對於電信業者KYC的責任有沒有進一步的規範措施，這是保障民眾權益一個很重要的關鍵。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告一下，我們根據電信管理法的授權去訂定電信事業用戶號碼使用管理辦法，大概在這個月底以前會讓它實施。在這之前，我們已經跟電信業者包括MVNO，就是原來傳統一類電信業者，還有其他這些所謂的原來二類電信業者共同努力，把這些相關的KYC、要求它下降，尤其是我們對於所謂MVNO如中華電信、台哥大、遠傳，也都要求他們極力去配合，他們也是很努力去處理。現在比較麻煩的一個相關議題是除了本國的電話號碼以外，還包括有一些來自於境外的像這些黑莓卡或其他部分，我們還會繼續努力。"],["李委員昆澤：這個部分我們還是要加強相關的來電辨識，要落實KYC客戶確認，我這邊要提醒主委，相關的「+8860至8」這個開頭現在可以直接攔阻，但是「+8869」這個電話可能是詐騙集團，也有可能是國外親友所撥打的電話，這個部分我們應該跟民間的來電辨識業者合作，對這些境外來電建立資料庫，進一步對外國來電進行辨識，避免民眾受騙。","針對「+8869」這個電話有可能是詐騙，也有可能是國際親友打來，我們要如何做進一步的處理？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個部分在技術上來講，的確「+8869」有正常的話務存在，不過透過我們警示以後詐騙訊息有下降，這裡有一個很重要的觀點是將來我們講話的部分很容易被AI所重製，我們會繼續努力去處理這個議題。"],["李委員昆澤：我們要強化電信業者客戶確認（KYC）的責任，必須要加強行政的指導跟稽核，從外部督導各電信業者，要求業者增強內部的控管機制，也要加強對於電信業者的相關規範，必須要求業者針對所販售的對象做事先的資格審查、事後的定期檢查以及網路的零售要資訊揭露，這個部分我們必須要有更進一步的作為。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有，我們這個都是在努力作為當中。對電信業者來講的話，我們都會加強行政指導，而且對電信業者落實KYC，我們也會不定期督導。另外，也請我們區處去查相關的這些比如在網路上販售的議題，這些來源的所謂電話卡到底是不是我們電信業者所發出的，或者是從國外來這邊處理，我們事前的檢查、事後的稽查，還有相關定期或不定期的這些網路的檢查，我們都有處理。"],["李委員昆澤：好，這個必須要加強相關作為。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["李委員昆澤：最後的時間我請教一下，我們在2018針對3G相關特定的執照，以及相關的服務就號稱要終止了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對……"],["李委員昆澤：到今年6月就要全面關閉。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["李委員昆澤：全面的關閉，那就要改用VoLTE的這種語音，號稱是比較高音質、高品質的通訊，那還是會有部分的用戶受到影響。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["李委員昆澤：我們看到這種VoLTE手機的普及，大概目前是94%。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["李委員昆澤：其實還有6%的民眾手機還沒有辦法支援。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，是。"],["李委員昆澤：全國3G的網路用戶數大概還有74萬3,921戶。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["李委員昆澤：我們以偏鄉地區來說，遠傳就評估他們偏鄉地區還有4,192戶，那相關的其他兩大電信業者有多少，還有其他的這些長輩、銀髮族所使用的3G手機都會受到影響。因為3G基地臺關閉，沒有換手機的人會受到影響，無法使用語音通話，NCC有什麼對應的措施？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們上禮拜就找這3家業者來溝通，原則上來講，當然也同意他們這個，因為這涉及到兩家電信業者……4家電信業者當時在合併時候的一個附款。"],["李委員昆澤：他們的規格也不太一樣。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，規格也不太一樣……"],["李委員昆澤：介面……去整合。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以我們是要求他，比如6月30日這個期日以前，遠傳跟台哥大這部分來講，必須依照他們的附款，趕緊就偏鄉也好，或者還在使用3G網路的業者趕快去轉型，轉化手機……"],["李委員昆澤：3G的落日相關措施，我們還是要加強。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然、當然。"],["李委員昆澤：要督導電信業者提供合理、優惠的方案來更換這些VoLTE的手機跟方案。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["李委員昆澤：也跟里長進行實際宣導，因為長輩或是偏鄉，要協助偏鄉跟高齡的這些長輩去做處理。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["李委員昆澤：偏鄉地區的落日時間，是不是能夠視當地的普及率再去順延，調整順延3G相關的關臺？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，我們當時也是考慮到剛才委員所講的，所以第一就是6月30日，如果有特殊的狀況，比如偏鄉的建設，或有一些可能涉及到軍事用途或者基礎建設的，還有需要3G網路的部分，這個我們也讓業者是暫時可以不用關閉。他們現在關閉，初期是先把它關……"],["李委員昆澤：好，這很重要，我們對於偏鄉跟長輩手機的使用……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，我們希望透過過渡期間，零衝擊，無爭議。"],["李委員昆澤：他的權益，要趕快協助他們轉到VoLTE的部分。我們要參考日本跟韓國，調整各自的4G、5G網路規格，逐步達成VoLTE語音互通的目標，這也是 NCC重要的一個責任。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，這是我們目前最重要的責任，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝昆澤召委。下一位請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.371593750000001,"end":28.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.29221875,"end":33.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.10159375,"end":35.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.02034375,"end":47.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.10784375,"end":62.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.15221875,"end":61.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.45159375,"end":62.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.77221875,"end":68.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.20596875000001,"end":68.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.56034375,"end":81.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.06471875000001,"end":81.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.40221875,"end":87.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.69659375,"end":140.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.80221875,"end":150.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.55596875,"end":155.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.11221875,"end":155.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.33159375,"end":162.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.41471875000002,"end":168.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.66284375,"end":176.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.78409375,"end":176.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.25659375,"end":176.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.44221875000002,"end":177.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.57284375,"end":180.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.42471875,"end":186.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.93846875,"end":187.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.96784375000001,"end":201.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.94034375,"end":203.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.88096875000002,"end":204.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.48846875,"end":206.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.17159375,"end":214.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.73159375,"end":216.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.16159375,"end":228.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.29909375000003,"end":231.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.50534375,"end":231.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.60221875000002,"end":233.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.12096875,"end":237.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.29346875000002,"end":248.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.13159375,"end":254.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.27471875,"end":249.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.24471875,"end":253.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.57346875000002,"end":264.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.86721875,"end":277.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.37159375000005,"end":277.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.67534375,"end":286.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.73721875,"end":287.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.02409375,"end":292.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.39471875000004,"end":291.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.30596875000003,"end":292.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.59284375000004,"end":299.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.64659375,"end":305.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.02971875000003,"end":327.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.03034375000004,"end":335.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.94471875000005,"end":339.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.91034375000004,"end":348.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.41534375000003,"end":351.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.91284375000004,"end":351.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.75659375000004,"end":351.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.97596875000005,"end":351.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.99284375,"end":352.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.02659375,"end":355.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.89096875,"end":355.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.92471875,"end":367.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.41659375,"end":367.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.80471875,"end":3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YC沒有落實KYC相關業者這個案件採取了20件"},{"start":104.659,"end":121.367,"text":"那也裁判了兩千多萬元那行政檢查39次那我們也看到呼斯科也有相關的這些統計的這些數據不過我們要提醒主委就是說我們針對這種電信網路的詐欺的他還是迅速的成長"},{"start":122.787,"end":142.821,"text":"當然這三年來我們來看地檢署的炸氣案件的統計都是快速的增加然後電信網路的炸氣案件的數量統計它也是增加的雖然去年2023年我們電信炸氣的這些連增率相對於2021到2022它是有31.8%的這種連增率2023雖然有下降到"},{"start":150.689,"end":151.669,"text":"報告委員關於這個電信還有網路詐欺的這個"},{"start":180.538,"end":180.918,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":210.428,"end":211.87,"text":"請電信業者就相關的這些所謂的"},{"start":232.951,"end":234.933,"text":"除了剛才提到KYC嘛就是客戶確認這個部分"},{"start":254.945,"end":277.166,"text":"這個部分我覺得是螺絲已經鬆動了我們看看近期海峽電信跟魔方移動他們都是屬於二類的電信事業成豬網路、電信的訊號提供給民眾服務看海峽電信他的這些所販售的號碼是中華電信所發配的"},{"start":278.727,"end":298.357,"text":"這一種海峽電信提供給7間的企業客戶8350個門號都沒有落實KYC那這個部分當然NCC有做相關的這個裁罰那魔方移動也是一樣那我們對於電信業者的KYC的這個責任"},{"start":299.798,"end":320.904,"text":"有沒有進一步的規範措施這個是要保障民眾權利一個很重要的關鍵我們根據電信管理法的授權我們去訂定這個電信失業用戶號碼使用管理辦法當然這個我們大概在這個月底以前會讓它實施這次之前來講我們已經跟電信業者包括MMO就是原來傳統一類電信業者"},{"start":322.785,"end":347.944,"text":"還有其他的這些所謂的原來的二類電信業者共同去努力把這些相關的KYCC要求它下降尤其是我們對於所謂MMO就是對於像中華電信、臺科大、遠傳這邊他們也都是要求他們極力去配合那他們也是很努力去處理現在比較麻煩的一個相關的議題是說除了我們本國的這個電話號碼以外還包括有一些來自於境外的像這些所謂的"},{"start":349.044,"end":364.218,"text":"黑莓卡或其他這個部分我們會繼續努力這個部分我們還是要加強相關的來電的辨識要落實KYC客戶確認我這邊要提醒主委我們相關的886、0-8的這個開頭現在是可以直接的攔阻"},{"start":367.841,"end":367.921,"text":"李昆澤"},{"start":387.323,"end":392.732,"text":"與外國的來電來進行辨識避免民眾受騙針對8869的這個電話的這相關有可能是詐騙也有可能是親友國際親友打來"},{"start":398.967,"end":420.356,"text":"來這個我們如何做進一步的處理這個基本在技術上來講的確8869有正常的化物存在不過的確透過我們這個警示以後來講的話這個詐騙的訊息有下降那這裡有一個很重要的觀點就是說那AI我們現在將來講話的部分來講很容易被AI這個所重置的這個部分來講我們會繼續努力去處理這個議題"},{"start":424.198,"end":437.37,"text":"我們要強化客戶確認KYC的電信業者的責任必須要加強行政的指導跟集合從外部督導各電信業者要求業者增強內部的控管機制"},{"start":438.311,"end":465.956,"text":"而要加強對於電信業者的相關的規範必須要要求業者針對所販售的對象事先的資格審查事後的定期檢查以及網路的零售要資訊接到來這個部分我們必須要有更進一步的作為我們這個都是在努力作為當中那我們對電信業者來講的話我們都會加強那行政指導而且對電信業者落實KYC我們也會不定期的去督導"},{"start":466.576,"end":484.978,"text":"那另外我們也請我們區處去查詢有些相關的這些比如在網路上販售的這個議題這些來源的這個所謂的電話卡到底是不是我們電信業者所發出的或者是說由從國外來這邊處理我們這個事前的點查事後的積查還有相關的這個定期或不定期的這些"},{"start":486.039,"end":503.44,"text":"網路的檢討這個必須要加強相關的作用最後的時間我請教一下我們在2018針對3G的相關的特定的執照以及相關的這個服務就號稱要終止了那到今年6月就要全面的關閉那全面的關閉那"},{"start":505.262,"end":524.661,"text":"就要改用Moti的相關的這種語音號稱是比較高音質的高品質的這種通訊那還是會有部分的用戶受到影響那我們看到這種Moti的這種手機的普及大概目前是94%其實還有6%的民眾手機還沒有辦法支援"},{"start":529.065,"end":556.172,"text":"那3G的用戶數啊全國的3G的網路用戶數啊大概還有74萬3921我們以偏鄉地區來說啦遠傳就評估他們偏鄉地區還有4192戶那相關的其他兩大電信業者有多少還有其他的這些長輩銀髮族所使用的這種3G的手機啊都會受到影響那因為3G基地台關閉啊"},{"start":557.312,"end":557.532,"text":"對規格也不太一樣"},{"start":578.069,"end":580.529,"text":"三G的落日相關措施我們還是要加強要督導電信業者提供合理優惠的方案來更換這些Voltaic的手機跟方案"},{"start":606.354,"end":631.781,"text":"那也跟里長去進行實地的宣導因為長輩或是偏鄉要協助偏鄉跟高齡的這些長輩要去做處理那偏鄉地區的落日時間是不是能夠是當地的普及率再去順眼調整順眼3G的這種相關的關台對我們當時來講也是考慮剛才那個委員所講的所以那個是第一就是6月30號"},{"start":633.061,"end":656.618,"text":"那如果說有特殊的狀況比如偏鄉的建設或者有一些是可能涉及到軍事用途或者基礎建設的這個還有需要3G網路這個部分這個我們也讓業者是暫時可以不用關閉他們先關閉初期是先把關閉我們對於偏鄉跟長輩的我們希望透過這個過渡期間臨沖擊要趕快協助他們轉到貨品的部分那我們要參考日本跟韓國"},{"start":657.679,"end":668.417,"text":"去調整各自的4G、5G網路規格的逐步達成這種Multi的語音互通的目標這個是NCC重要的一個責任這是我們目前當中最重要的責任謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149671","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149671","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430092e38bf81114f8d21cfe294bc3fbc1e0f8ba9b0039caa7a61052946088e6d4215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:14:38 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謝謝主席喔 這個教育部次長跟體育署長有請喔好請次長跟署長牛煦好好辛苦了喔 這個今天雖然大家是要討論就是說這個新的科學訓練中心能不能提升這個運動選手的一些表現這方面很重要大家也都不會反對我相信大家也針對不同的這個細節跟配套提出了一些意見但本期今天在這邊反而要強調的是啊這個"},{"start":32.654,"end":52.406,"text":"你搞一大堆中心用科技的方式來處理這畢竟只是硬體部分的提升可是我們要不要變成一個運動強國要不要能栽培出更多的運動人才其實軟體跟環境是更為重要的我是業餘足球員我今天就用足球協會近年的問題來針對這些事情提出一些質詢"},{"start":53.527,"end":77.468,"text":"主席的問題很多馬上要辦世界盃足球賽資格賽場地問題弄到一個燈光不符合標準的場地然後講借場地的時候流程好像辦的也沒有進入狀況以至於沒有借到場地未來接下來其他的國際賽能不能借到場地也是在未定之天第二個是青年聯賽取消的問題這大概有本席深入論述第三個我們的五人制足球國家隊"},{"start":78.069,"end":106.391,"text":"之前教練也被砍薪水選手的訓練費也被砍非常的厲害那最後是最近發生的女足的合約不平等的問題啊這些東西在在都是含了基層運動人員的心啊也含了對於足球有興趣的所有這個相關人士大家都覺得很心寒啊如果這些軟體的部分啊這些協會在在處理這件事情的品質沒有被確保的時候你有再好的中心再進步的科技跟再好的技術請問有什麼用呢"},{"start":107.366,"end":108.027,"text":"鼠長回答一下。"},{"start":129.804,"end":148.238,"text":"報告委員其實在去年有一次大院這邊舉行了一個公聽會那當時足球協會是有來出席但是足球協會在當時跟在場的所有的不管是家長還是相關人士的討論之後在會議結束之後整個的方向完全的"},{"start":149.139,"end":150.28,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":165.897,"end":184.058,"text":"蘇長啊,你當初在這件事情結束的時候還發文說因應立委助理的需求啊。欸,這句話是很糟糕的一句話捏。因為今天那天來參加座談會的不只是我們立委本人啊。有非常非常多的基層的家長,有非常多的教練,有很多的國角,都是在場的參與的人員。你有沒有什麼話要跟他們說?你覺得你講這樣的話妥當嗎?"},{"start":185.399,"end":201.077,"text":"報告委員這部分我的確應該是以家長為主跟學友為主這部分我後面會來改進謝謝你願不願意跟這些有來參加這群很心寒的基層願不願意道歉呢這部分我還是願意對他們致歉因為說實在的我們還是希望把租學協會的督導能夠在行政方面能夠更精進"},{"start":201.658,"end":205.74,"text":"好,那我們就談一下細節啦為什麼我們要辦青年聯賽是因為循環賽制對選手的保護是比較好的長期的這個聯賽制度確定下來之後啊對於這個整體各個球隊不管是學校系統也好俱樂部系統也好去培養球隊去以賽代訓等等它會有一個相對安穩的一個期程嘛"},{"start":221.448,"end":221.688,"text":"我們是跟足球協會達成一個共識"},{"start":238.229,"end":263.25,"text":"未來就是依照選手家長們還有俱樂部的這個期待來恢復這樣定期的一個賽事當然要一週一賽啦而且要長期的確定嘛 對不對那我當然也不見得不能理解足協的一些困境財務等等但問題是你體育署隨時要做好心理準備嘛如果有一些這樣的狀況的時候你相對的配套措施是什麼幫忙委員去年雖然有鬧出這樣的賽事上的爭議啦"},{"start":264.491,"end":289.802,"text":"但是後來竹協也的確有做了一些改善所以也讓後面這些賽事成績比較不好的這些的隊伍也有去增加他們場次了剛剛既然臨時提案已經通過了那顯然我們後面還會有報告的時間我現在嚴肅的提醒體育體育署也嚴肅的提醒教育部針對這件事情的處遇方式第一要非常明確第二要符合基層期待你如果有困難有的時候另辟蹊徑也不是壞事啊"},{"start":290.162,"end":308.097,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":308.457,"end":308.477,"text":"謝謝牛煦,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149670","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149670","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43001be17eb39647d30743c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a6bb7f1b8e8d3d49e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"11:11:37 - 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OK就好了"},{"start":188.24,"end":215.219,"text":"結果有的投票手續報上去回來又改改又改又改到7次我們都查出來了那我們中選會一再講這是小瑕疵我告訴你買票一票就當選沒辦法我們這樣查查的粗暴查查的2490多票有問題所以主席你不可能說做到了"},{"start":215.936,"end":218.218,"text":"中華民國、台灣省的選舉現在還有這種事情是不是可以讓我說明一下"},{"start":230.066,"end":232.088,"text":"第一關就是我們自己要調查"},{"start":254.648,"end":255.489,"text":"發言委員．蘇清泉發言委員．蘇清泉發言委員．蘇清泉發言委員．蘇清泉發言委員．蘇清泉"},{"start":283.03,"end":287.953,"text":"有投完票就把整個投票所關起來,鐵門拉下來,這裡面整票,整完,然後再把鐵門打開,然後再開著開票,然後我們先唱票,亮票,然後再整票,你們是倒著幹,全世界都看到那個視頻"},{"start":306.175,"end":308.018,"text":"我們都會用最負責的態度去進行調查"},{"start":322.177,"end":328.079,"text":"若有具體的事例案件請你進一步提供給我們我們絕對用最負責的態度來進行調查若有具體的事例案件請你進一步提供給我們我們絕對用最負責的態度來進行調查"},{"start":347.714,"end":362.399,"text":"我要再講的是我們要的Lockdown一直不給就是你的電腦從鄉到縣市然後到中央來來去去一直改一直改一直改我們一直在請法院調中選會就是不給那裡面都很貓膩"},{"start":366.078,"end":366.558,"text":"發言委員．蘇清泉"},{"start":384.378,"end":386.3,"text":"一堆一個投票所20幾%是用蓋手印"},{"start":403.556,"end":403.736,"text":"蘇清泉委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"149669","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149669","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430098bd15c1cebfd5a71cfe294bc3fbc1e0f8ba9b0039caa7a6f0c8cd608c1fd9b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"11:09:41 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確我們體育署也很希望能夠恢復到過去的替代這個方向"},{"start":272.154,"end":272.334,"text":"謝謝羅美玲委員"}]}},{"id":"149668","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149668","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430083bd2f1451a47a7443c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a64e85fd41815b697d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：主委，我現在談的是原住民啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：對，我知道，我的第二點……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：只有臺灣政府，只有臺灣的中選會，你在跟我談別的國家！我現在跟你談原住民的……"],["李主任委員進勇：剛剛委員有提到印尼，所以我要談到……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：錯了！"],["李主任委員進勇：……臺灣政府的態度……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：錯了！"],["李主任委員進勇：它是開放的態度。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：投票通知單是……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們要在國外……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：駐台北印尼選舉委員會。"],["李主任委員進勇：對，我們如果……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：印尼的駐台北選舉委員會，你不要去扯那個啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：臺灣政府一定要給它協助，它才有辦法辦理啦，所以臺灣政府並不是封閉的，他是開放的，這是第一點我要說明的。","第二點，剛剛委員特別關心的就是原住民的不在籍投票，選舉的部分，我想以前也曾經有過這方面的對話，我們認為相對於區域立法委員來講，原住民的立法委員選舉因為是全國一個選區啦，在選務的部分是相對比較單純的，但是你要推……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：那為什麼不實施？為什麼不推？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們是希望有穩健的腳步，從公民投票先來實施，要推到選舉的時候，也許原住民全國單一選區的部分可以列為優先的一個條件。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：印尼在臺灣辦理不在籍投票，在103年、108年設了34個固定投票所，今年2月14號新增加為54個固定投票所，而且還增加了6台移動選舉車，所以這個部分……"],["李主任委員進勇：報告委員，即便跟我們有邦交的國家，我們的選舉要去他們的國家設投開票所，一定會被干擾……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒有，我們不談那個，我只是說我們不如啦……"],["李主任委員進勇：一定會被干擾。"],["鄭天財Sra 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11:10:44","影片長度":"00:07:49","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":469,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:10:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T11:02:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":640,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時3分）謝謝主席，我請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：李主委，我看了你一整本報告，其實公平交易委員會是滿認真的，有實際在做很多事情，像你們對於多層次傳銷，這麼多年來，你們長期追蹤關注，也去處罰，確實有抑制他們一些不法的行為。","但是我覺得還是有很多地方，比方像對於建商他們在銷售房屋這一個部分，運用不實的廣告欺騙消費者、利用資訊不對等、利用專業知識的不對等，這已經長期以來消費者都被這麼的欺負。最傷腦筋的是消費者在買房子，這可能是他一輩子的積蓄，好不容易才買那麼一戶房子，這不是買一包糖果、不是買一杯泡沫紅茶，如果這樣被矇騙，那個損失是非常龐大的。我認為你們在建商的查察跟處罰方面，我用幾個字形容──高舉輕放。比方說這幾個我蒐集到的案例，像青森悅、文心愛悅、星月雅築，這都你們查到的啊，還有大直匯、紐約時上。我舉例，文心愛悅50億的銷售額，50億，你們罰款150萬，其他像大直匯，10億的銷售額，你罰80萬；我覺得這些建商根本不痛不癢，也不當一回事，所以他們繼續矇混，也繼續欺騙消費者，用這種不實誇大的廣告，已經很清楚了。最主要是分區使用，明明是工業區，他也蓋住宅、商業區，他也蓋住宅，然後在他們廣告上面還打成溫馨的住宅、溫馨的套房，直接這樣的用語，大剌剌的。公平交易法第二十一條很清楚，因為不實廣告而影響交易決心者，這個當然要罰，不但要罰，而且要重罰，罰2,500萬元，而且不改善的話可以再處罰5,000萬元。","李主委，罰2,500萬元喔！不改善再罰5,000萬元。我請問，一個50億銷售案的房子，可能3、5個月就賣完嗎？不是啊！你處罰他以後，他搞不好賣3個月、5個月、半年以上還在賣，用同樣的廣告又繼續賣，你們後續接著也不罰，不罰就任令他繼續蹂躪消費者。我們中山區大直最出名的大灣北段這個案子，大灣北段好多建商去那邊啃食，總共蓋了1,880戶，那個就是在所謂的特定商業區上面，不能蓋住宅，要蓋住宅可以，要由建商去變更地目，那要繳相當的回饋金，或者回饋條件給政府。但他不這麼做，建商便宜行事，1,880戶購買的市民朋友們長期以來受到後續市政府的追殺，要把他們罰款，連續罰以後還可以斷水斷電。李主委，人民有免於恐懼的自由，好不容易存了一大筆錢，畢生的積蓄，買一個小窩給全家人安心住養的地方，結果被建商這麼一搞，買到這種那麼大問題的住宅，每天惶惶不可終日，一下怕被建管處來查，一下怕接到都發局的罰單，一下又怕被斷水斷電。所以啊，公平交易委員會如果沒有適時在該處理的時候介入，就會任令這些惡劣囂張的建商一而再、再而三欺負我們的民眾、欺負消費者，這樣的情況一而再、再而三的發生。","還有這十來年也都這樣，你看滿坑滿谷在電視上、公車廣告上、廣播節目上這種不實的藥品廣告，食藥署已經追蹤，而且還提出了十大違規食藥的廣告名單清冊。結果對於這些，公平交易委員會竟然怎麼說，你們也講了一個道理，你們說主管機關有去罰了，所以公平交易委員會就沒有介入，錯了！李主委，錯了！你本來就應該去裁罰，這跟它的主管機關有沒有裁罰它其實無關，它的主管機關多數也跟你們公平交易委員會一樣，怎麼樣呢？高舉輕放！高高舉起、輕輕放下，怎麼知道它輕輕放下？你看到它們這些違規的藥品廣告還在電視廣播媒體上、主流電視上侵害、戕害我們的視覺觀瞻，繼續欺騙消費者，這就是了啊！不是嗎？所以我希望你拿出公平交易法第二十一條重罰這些違規的廠商們，才有辦法遏止它們，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，這些違反公平法的事業應該予以嚴處，這也是我們本來就應該要這麼處理的。"],["王委員世堅：好，我下次還會繼續問你，看從今天開始以後，你重處了哪一些，好不好？好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。今天沒有委員提出書面質詢，如果有書面質詢及未及答復的部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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這大剌剌的公平交易法第21條很清楚不實廣告 因為不實廣告而影響交易決心則這個當然要罰 不但要罰而且重罰"},{"start":200.321,"end":227.877,"text":"兩千五百萬元捏而且不改善的話可以再處罰五千萬元欸李主委罰兩千五百萬元喔不改善再罰五千萬元我請問吶一個五十億銷售案的房子可能說欸三五個月就要賣我嗎不是啊你處罰他以後他搞不好賣三個月五個月賣半年以上還在賣"},{"start":229.059,"end":246.915,"text":"又同樣的廣告又繼續賣那你們後續接著也不乏不乏就任命他繼續蹂躪消費者我們中山區這個大直啊最出名的大灣北段這個案子"},{"start":247.981,"end":272.416,"text":"大灣北段好多建商去那邊啃食總共蓋了1880戶他那個就是在所謂的特定商業區上面不能蓋住宅那要蓋住宅可以那麼由建商去變更地目那個要繳相當的回饋金或者回饋條件給政府他不這麼做建商便移形式1880戶"},{"start":275.558,"end":301.596,"text":"的購買的市民朋友們長期以來受到後續市政府的追蹤追殺啦要把他們罰款啦連續罰以後還可以斷水斷電李主委人民有免於恐懼的自由好不容易存了一大筆錢畢生的積蓄買一個小窩給全家人安心來"},{"start":304.673,"end":304.953,"text":"所以啊："},{"start":331.789,"end":347.494,"text":"公平交易委員會如果沒有事實的在該處理的時候介入那就會任命這些惡劣囂張的建商一而再再而三欺負我們的民眾欺負消費者"},{"start":349.174,"end":371.201,"text":"這樣的情況一而再再而三的發生還有最近其實這10來年來也都這樣你看滿坑滿谷電視上公車廣告上廣播節目上這種不實的藥品廣告食藥署已經追蹤而且還提出了十大違規"},{"start":373.597,"end":393.898,"text":"實要的廣告單的清澈．廣告名單清澈．結果這一些啊．我們公平交易委員會竟然怎麼說．他說你們要講一個道理．你說這個主管機關啊．他們有去罰了．所以公平交易委員會就沒有介入．錯了李主委 錯了．"},{"start":396.195,"end":409.603,"text":"你本來就應該去裁罰這跟他的主管機關有沒有裁罰他其實無關他的主管機關啊多數也跟你們公平交易委員會一樣怎麼樣勒高舉輕放高高舉起啦"},{"start":415.649,"end":417.01,"text":"這就是了啊,不是嗎?"},{"start":417.01,"end":417.11,"text":"所以"},{"start":438.701,"end":462.799,"text":"所以我希望你拿出公平交易法第21條重罰這些違規的廠商們才有辦法遏止他們好不好那些違反公平法的這些事業應該予以嚴處我想這也是我們本來就應該要這麼處理好我下次還會繼續問你看從今天開始以後你重處了哪一些好不好好謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149666","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149666","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430044717f5257b6a23caf4279b9ad9aebfdf8ba9b0039caa7a62acfd9f0a57c55585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:58:15 - 11:09:50","影片長度":"00:11:35","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-4"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":695,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:09:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:58:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":454,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時58分）請國安局蔡局長、國防部柏副部長、空軍參謀長、海巡署副署長。"],["主席：請蔡局長、柏副部長、空軍參謀長、海巡署副署長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。邱委員早。"],["邱委員志偉：蔡局長，香港基本法第二十三條公布之後，對國人到香港的商務或者旅遊的人身安全或者是言論自由，會不會造成很大的影響？"],["蔡局長明彥：相關立法的過程我們在密切的關注，預計大概可能在未來的幾個月內就會通過這個立法，這個法案已經講了幾十年，我從二、三十年前就曾經針對這議題來評論……"],["邱委員志偉：所以在未來幾個月就會通過立法？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["邱委員志偉：立法對國人在香港旅遊或者商務的行為，會不會造成很大的影響？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，要注意，到時候看它的法律條文，一般來講中共通過的法律條文……"],["邱委員志偉：它說在境內，境內有沒有包括機場？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，它的境內還有它所謂的……"],["邱委員志偉：機場包不包括？"],["蔡局長明彥：當然要注意啊！它有可能在你通關的過程當中……"],["邱委員志偉：所以國人轉機，譬如說我要經過香港轉機……"],["蔡局長明彥：要注意、要注意，確實要注意。"],["邱委員志偉：要非常注意還是要小心注意？"],["蔡局長明彥：就是要特別注意。"],["邱委員志偉：你看我都不敢經過那裡，我都不敢經過香港轉機啊！你也不敢嘛？政府官員都不敢吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：不會，我們不會過去。"],["邱委員志偉：政府官員大概都沒有人敢經過香港轉機，如果這個香港基本法通過之後，對不對？你只要讓他發現你有發表過對中國不利的言論或者批評的言論，你就可能按照香港基本法被抓走了。"],["蔡局長明彥：不過跟委員報告一下，在香港相關的國安法規通過之前，現在就已經有國人在過境香港時被約談。"],["邱委員志偉：過境香港？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，在過境香港被……"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有被拘留？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，有被約談。"],["邱委員志偉：那就根本一國一制，就不是一國兩制啦！就一國一制啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：是，這就是要特別提醒國人要注意的地方。"],["邱委員志偉：所以香港不是一個特別行政區，香港變成中華人民共和國的一個香港市或者香港省，就是類似這種概念，它不是一個特別行政區。所以國人去香港時，相關的人身自由、言論都會受到跟在中國境內一樣的待遇嘛！是不是這樣？"],["蔡局長明彥：要注意有這樣的發展趨勢。"],["邱委員志偉：你要提醒國人喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我們會利用這個機會來警示國人。"],["邱委員志偉：我可能這一輩子不會去香港了，連轉機都不可能，因為它是中華人民共和國的一省或一個市嘛！另外要討論一下臺海的問題，每天有那麼多的機、艦去干擾，特別是他們的主力戰機，我為什麼會請柏副部長？因為柏副部長是空軍出身，我為什麼請空軍參謀長？就是我們空優的部分每天面臨到中國那麼多機、艦的干擾，甚至越過海峽中線，我們有沒有掌握局部空優？還是我們有自信是全面性的空優？請柏副部長說明。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，有關於局部和全面空優應該是當時這個敵對的狀況，不過在空軍來講，就目前……"],["邱委員志偉：如果擦槍走火了，在交戰的時候我們有沒有空優？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，基本上以一個飛行員來講，就是在我們所有火力涵蓋的範圍裡面，事實上，我們是掌有絕對的空優。"],["邱委員志偉：絕對的空優？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的，為什麼呢？因為他是暴露在我防空火炮的範圍裡面。"],["邱委員志偉：但是他們的數量也比較多啊！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，這跟數量和你的戰略、戰法都很有關係，但是基本上來講，敵近我遠或……"],["邱委員志偉：所以不是以量取勝，我們是以質取勝，對不對？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：那我們的戰機性能也比他們更優越。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我要這樣講，所有戰機都有它的優缺點，但是在乎的是什麼？就是那個飛行員，因為飛行員的訓練非常重要。"],["邱委員志偉：對，你講到飛行員，我就擔心會不會有飛行員斷層的問題，飛行員的養成不易。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的，委員是岡山的委員，所以特別瞭解，我們的訓練從來沒有停過，至於飛行員的補充，事實上是按照我們座艙比來做調節。"],["邱委員志偉：你要有更優渥的待遇來鼓勵年輕人投入空軍，特別是戰鬥飛行員的行列。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我很擔心我們有好的戰機，但是沒有人力來執行這個空優的戰略，這個是我擔心的問題。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，目前我們所有的主力戰機基本上來講，我們的飛行員都是足夠的。另外，對於新進人員招募的工作我們從來沒有間斷過，那我想我們今天……"],["邱委員志偉：我希望你不要報喜不報憂，我瞭解實際狀況是滿嚴峻的，人力的補充還是一個很大的議題。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：這可以藉由任務的調節來調節飛行員量的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：因為高強度、長時間的戰略壓力，有很多飛行員面臨到很多身心上的壓力，對不對？這樣長期下來當然會對他們的身心狀態造成影響，所以人力的補充很重要。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我也希望局長以你的高度，你自己去協調各個相關的國防單位，所以局長要認識、要瞭解如何去解決空軍飛行員戰力的問題。副部長，你有信心可以解決這個問題嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，有關於您所提到的問題，我想我們空軍長久以來，不單只是空軍，國軍所有人力招募的工作從來沒有停止過。"],["邱委員志偉：據我的瞭解，我擔心共機的干擾是長時間的，這不是1天、2天而已，所以造成我們飛行員真的是身心壓力非常大。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員的關心，我們在任務上會調整。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，我們有沒有可能再增加高教機的數量？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，目前沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：那初教機我是希望要國機國造，目前你們對初教機有什麼戰略規劃呢？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，因為我們現在高教機仍然是在交機的階段……"],["邱委員志偉：初教機也要規劃啊！初教機也要汰換啊！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：跟委員報告，事實上，我們初教機從以前到現在沒有停止過規劃，那在評估的規劃上面來講，空軍始終在這個方面做評估，那事實上我們真正……"],["邱委員志偉：不能始終在評估，你要進入實質的規劃階段了，你要有一個方案出來。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：當然有方案，我們空軍提了三種方案。"],["邱委員志偉：我希望你們遵循國機國造的一個方向，這樣我們才能掌握我們自己的研發能量，才能掌握我們自己的核心技術嘛！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，所有的國機國造或是國防產業都是我們國防部支持的，那在這個過程當中，我們必須要看我們所有國防產業發展的現況。"],["邱委員志偉：所以現在初教機是要外購還是由我們自製還沒有定案？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：這沒有定案，還在評估，要到122年的時候它才會發生問題。"],["邱委員志偉：112年？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：122年。"],["邱委員志偉：到122年你才會開始做規劃嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們現在就已經開始做初步的規劃和評估。"],["邱委員志偉：國安局蔡局長，你覺得初教機要國機國造還是要外購？"],["蔡局長明彥：這一部分的評估還是由國防部在作業當中。"],["邱委員志偉：這個我們再找時間來討論。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["邱委員志偉：那有一個原則要把握，還是要國機國造啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這是我們的政策方向。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，影響中國國家穩定的因素包括社會穩定的問題、經濟的因素，包括國際的因素，也包括臺灣的因素，我剛剛說了會影響中國國家穩定的這四個因素，你覺得在未來這兩三年其中哪個因素的影響會最強烈？"],["蔡局長明彥：我覺得中國大陸內部的因素還是最重要的。"],["邱委員志偉：就是社會經濟的問題嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，以中共政權來講，重視的還是內部的穩定。"],["邱委員志偉：社會經濟問題是他們目前國內經濟穩定最大的一個威脅嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，美國拜登總統和未來可能是他競爭對手的川普，他們兩個目前的民調是勢均力敵。"],["蔡局長明彥：差不多。"],["邱委員志偉：誰勝誰負尚難論定，臺海一旦發生戰事，他們這兩個可能成為美國總統的人對於如何介入臺海有沒有相關的劇本規劃或者因應的戰略？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為這兩位有一位是現任總統，有一位是前任總統……"],["邱委員志偉：就你所掌握的訊息裡面，從拜登或川普在過去所發表的言論，或者川普在上一任的時候，臺海一旦發生戰事，他們有沒有做相關戰略因應方案的評估？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，拜登總統曾經4次公開講他對於臺海情勢的關注，以及美國也會採取必要的行動來維護臺海的安全；那川普總統在他的任內也曾經宣布超過10項以上的軍售案。"],["邱委員志偉：必要的行動也許不包括軍事行動，我是講軍事介入的這個部分、協防臺灣的這個部分，協防臺灣就牽扯到指管通情的合作，就你們所掌握的資訊，拜登跟未來可能是總統的川普有沒有什麼因應方案？臺海一旦發生戰事的時候，他們有沒有軍事介入臺灣或者協防臺灣的戰略規劃文本？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，他們都有做相關印太安全情勢的評估以及預案的準備。"],["邱委員志偉：他們兩個都有就對了？"],["蔡局長明彥：一直都有，美國整體的印太戰略對於可能突發的狀況他們都有相關的因應。"],["邱委員志偉：我再講30秒，兩岸有可能發生局部的衝突，一個就是在海峽中線，一個就是在金門，一個就可能在太平島，局長，你有去過太平島嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["邱委員志偉：本席在第2屆當召委的時候曾經去考察過太平島，以現階段兩岸的情勢來看，海巡署的高層或者國防部的高層，甚至總統府的高層或者是立法院的國防委員會適不適合在現階段去太平島考察？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想到太平島的狀況還是要做整體區域政治情勢的評估，因為畢竟現在南海的情勢是比較升溫的，那在過程當中任何……"],["邱委員志偉：相對不敏感的，如果立法院國防委員會或是經濟委員會要考察南海經濟海域的問題，你覺得在這個時候去適不適合？"],["蔡局長明彥：在行政作業上國防部應該有一般的行政作業流程。"],["邱委員志偉：安全性沒有問題嘛！我是覺得有必要性，從形式上、宣示上或者實質上都有它的必要性，但是採取相對不敏感的，就是用立法院來……"],["主席：好，謝謝，因為時間的關係。"],["邱委員志偉：再10秒鐘，讓我請海巡署說明。"],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要注意對 因為看到時候看他的法律的條文那一般來講中共通過的法律條文他說在境內在境內境內有沒有包括這個機場對 他的境內還有他的所謂的機場包括機場包括我當然要注意阿他有可能在你通關的過程當中所以國內轉機 比如說我我要去轉機經過香港轉移確實要注意要非常注意還是要小心注意就是要特別注意我看 我都不敢經過那裡"},{"start":80.851,"end":92.283,"text":"我都沒經過香港轉機啊你也不敢嘛齁政府官員都不敢吧不會我們不會過去政府官員大概都沒有人敢經過香港轉機如果你這個香港基本法這個通過之後"},{"start":93.251,"end":98.252,"text":"不過跟委員報告一下現在在通過香港的那個基本那個那個相關的國安法規之前現在就已經有國人在過境香港被約談過境香港對在過境香港被有沒有被拘留"},{"start":120.72,"end":133.526,"text":"所以香港不是一個特別行政區香港變成一個中華人民共和國的香港市或是香港省類似這種概念它不是一個特別行政區"},{"start":134.835,"end":160.011,"text":"所以國人去香港的這個相關的人身自由言論都會受到跟在中國境內一樣的待遇嗎?是不是這樣?要注意有這樣的發展趨勢你是要提醒國人喔?有,我們會用這個機會來提示國人我可能這一輩子啊,我不會去香港,連轉機都不可能因為它是中華人民共和國的一省嘛,不能一個市嘛另外討論一下這個"},{"start":162.665,"end":190,"text":"台海的問題每天那麼多的基建去干擾特別是這個他們的主力戰機為什麼請博副部長博副部長是空軍出身為什麼請空軍參謀長就是我們空優的部分每天面臨到這個中國那麼多的基建的干擾甚至在越過海的中間我們有沒有掌握局部空優還是我們有這個有自信是全面性的空優"},{"start":191.704,"end":213.355,"text":"那個請國防部副部長報告委員有關於這個局部公安全面空優應該是當時的這個敵對的狀況不過在空軍來講就目前張相洲交戰的時候我們有沒有空優報告委員基本上來講一個飛行員來講就是說在我們的所有的火力涵蓋範圍裡面事實上我們是長有絕對的空優"},{"start":214.275,"end":214.395,"text":"國防部副部長"},{"start":229.861,"end":249.452,"text":"所以不是一樣取勝,我們是以質取勝,對不對?是的,重點...那我們的戰機性能也比他們更優越。報告委員,我要這樣講,所有的戰機它有它的優缺點,但是在乎的是什麼?是那個飛行員。飛行員的訓練非常重要。對啊,你講到飛行員我就擔心,會不會有飛行員斷層的問題?"},{"start":250.453,"end":254.295,"text":"有更優渥的待遇來鼓勵年輕人投入空軍,特別是戰鬥飛行員的行列。我很擔心說我們有好的戰機,但是沒有一個人力來執行這個空優的戰略。"},{"start":276.808,"end":300.707,"text":"這個是我擔心的問題報告委員您現在目前我們所有的主力戰機基本上來講我們的飛行員都足夠的那另外一個對於一個新進人員的這個招募的工作我們從來沒有見斷過那我想我們今天我希望說你不要報喜不報憂我是了解實際狀況是蠻嚴峻的人力的補充還是一個很大的議題這可以借到任務的調節來調節飛行員的他的量的問題"},{"start":303.849,"end":332.165,"text":"高強度、高長時間的這個戰略的壓力．很多的這個飛行員是．面臨到很多身心上的壓力．對不對那長期以來這個當然會．對他們的這個身心狀態造成影響．所以能力補充很重要．我也希望局長以你的高度．你自己協調各個相關的國防單位．所以局長你要認識．你要了解如何去解決．空軍飛行員戰力的問題．"},{"start":334.454,"end":358.963,"text":"那個副部長你有報告委員有關你所提到的問題這個我想我們空軍長久以來不但只是空軍國軍所有的人力的招募工作從來沒有停止過我都了解啦我是擔心說這個共機的這個干擾這個長時間的這不是一天兩天所以造成我們飛行員真的是身心壓力非常大謝謝委員的關心另外高校機我們有沒有可能再增加數量"},{"start":360.063,"end":360.483,"text":"國防部副部長邱志偉"},{"start":375.274,"end":377.956,"text":"我希望你們遵循國機國造的一個方向我們才能掌握我們自己的研發能量才能掌握我們自己的核心技術"},{"start":402.774,"end":419.626,"text":"保委員我跟您報告所有的國機、國造或是國防產業都是我們國防部支持的那在這個過程當中我們必須要看我們這個所有的國防產業的發展現況所以現在副部長其實要外購還是要我們自製還沒有定案這沒有定案還在評估要到122年的時候它才會發生問題112年"},{"start":423.749,"end":437.333,"text":"一百二十二年,你才會開始做規劃嗎?我們現在都已經開始做初步的規劃和評估。那個國安局,蔡局長,你覺得是需要一些國機國造還是要外購?這部分的評估還是由國防部在作業當中。這個..."},{"start":440.902,"end":467.626,"text":"我們再找時間來討論好那一個原則要把握還是要國際國造有這是我們的政策方向那另外影響中國國家穩定的因素包括它的社會穩定的問題經濟的因素包括國際的因素也包括這個台灣的因素你覺得現階段是哪些這四個上我剛剛所說四個因素是哪四個這四個因素裡面這個最目前現階段在未來這個兩三年影響中國國家穩定這四個因素哪個最強烈"},{"start":468.246,"end":474.829,"text":"我覺得中國大陸內部的因素還是最重要的社會經濟問題是他們目前國內經濟穩定最大的一個威脅另外美國拜登總統或者是未來可能他們的競爭對手又可能川普他們兩個目前的民調是勢均力敵誰勝誰負還尚難定料"},{"start":496.701,"end":524.956,"text":"他們兩個可能的總統．對於如何介入台海．如果台海一旦發生戰事．他們介入台海．有沒有相關的劇本規劃．或者因應的戰略因為這兩位總統．一位是現任總統．一位是前任總統你所掌握的這個訊息．你從拜登或者是從川普．在過去所要的言論．或者川普在上一任的時候．"},{"start":526.196,"end":549.615,"text":"對台海如果一旦發生戰事有沒有做相關的這個戰略因應的方案的評估有就那個拜登總統他曾經4次的公開講他對於台海情勢的關注那以及美國也會採取必要的行動來維護台海的安全那川普總統在他的任內也曾經宣布超過10項以上的軍售案必要行動不包括也許不包括軍事行動"},{"start":551.345,"end":553.546,"text":"對他們都有做相關印太安全的情勢的評估以及預案的一個準備"},{"start":579.888,"end":583.33,"text":"我再30秒,這個如果兩岸一旦會有可能發生局部的衝突,一個就是在海峽中線,一個就是在金門,一個就可能在太平島,太平島,那個局長你有去過嗎?"},{"start":605.558,"end":630.075,"text":"本席在第二屆當召委的時候我曾經考察這個太平島以現階段的兩岸的情勢來看這個海巡署的高層或者國防部的高層這個甚至總統府的高層或者是立法院的這個國防委員會適不適合現階段去這個太平島考察"},{"start":630.646,"end":649.873,"text":"我想到太平島的狀況還是要做整體區域政治情勢的評估因為畢竟現在在南海的情勢是比較升溫的那過程當中相對不敏感的如果立法院國防委員會或是我是以經濟委員會考察這個南海經濟海域的問題你覺得這個手續適不適合"},{"start":654.54,"end":654.9,"text":"海巡署"},{"start":680.362,"end":692.64,"text":"如果立法院組一個考察團去太平島,你們會全力協助嗎?如果政策決定,我們全力配合。那你署裡面的高層有沒有去過,或者海委會有沒有去過?都去過,謝謝,不好意思喔,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149665","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149665","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43009675a2b5736ceb02aea18303c979697ef8ba9b0039caa7a6feaf8bb4eca54f7e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:54:27 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11:05:16","影片長度":"00:10:49","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-5"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":649,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:05:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:54:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":856,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時54分）主席，有請秘書長。"],["主席：有請李秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：秘書長好。先前已經有好幾個委員都有提到，社會大眾現在在討論到底要不要廢除監察院的事情，那麼是不是可以請您再重申一下您的立場？作為監察院的秘書長，您怎麼樣回應社會現在對於要廢除考監，主要是廢除監察院的這個議題。"],["李秘書長俊俋：廢除考監這件事情，監察院的立場從頭到尾非常一致，就是在憲法沒有修正之前，我們依照憲法賦予的權責來執行。至於修憲的部分是屬於立法院的權限，不是監察院的權限。"],["翁委員曉玲：也就是說，您擔任監察院秘書長這些年，您認為監察院有扮演什麼樣的角色嗎？它有發揮什麼樣的功能嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟翁委員報告，我到監察院4個月，這4個月來，依照我的觀察，監察院依照憲法所賦予的職責，對公務員的違法失職做很詳細的調查跟查處，這個部分在彈劾或是完了以後，我們會送給懲戒法院來懲戒。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以您覺得您做這樣的事情有意義嗎？是很重要的職責吧？"],["李秘書長俊俋：協助任何憲政機關發揮它的功能，我認為都有意義，這個也是我的工作。"],["翁委員曉玲：很好，監察院跟立法院在沒有修憲之前，其實即便修憲之後，他們都是代表，像是西方民主國家的國會功能，他們具有這樣子的國會功能……"],["李秘書長俊俋：它是憲政機關。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以立法院跟監察院應該是要互相合作、相輔相成，立法院是在事前對於法律，執行它的立法權力，然後制定規範。監察院很重要的是在督促或是去查核這些行政機關有沒有遵守法律，所以我個人認為監察院是非常重要的，我也不認為監察院有被廢除的必要，所以我也很期待監察院其實能夠站出來捍衛你們的職權，即便是外界可能對於現在我們中華民國憲法五權分立這樣子的架構底下，對於監察院的職權不是很清楚，但是就個人而言，本席認為監察院其實很重要的。如果監察院被廢除了，那麼國家人權委員會何去何從？請教。"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個由立法院來討論，因為國家人權委員會組織法也是經過立法院的討論後，然後才通過……"],["翁委員曉玲：我看了你們這次所提出來的立法計畫，你們希望在監察法裡面再多一個專章，將國家人權委員會法制化。"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分不是法制化的問題，而是我們的職權行使，我們必須要有一個職權行使的相關依據，然後依照立法院過去的附帶決議、決議，希望我們用監察法的方式送進來立法院審查。我們在第10屆有這樣的動作，但是第10屆沒有順利地通過、沒有完成三讀，所以這一屆我們會再重新討論，然後再送到立法院來。"],["翁委員曉玲：當然對於國家人權委員會，它的組織是否與現在其他既有的機關可能有疊床架屋，是不是有存在國家人權委員會的必要，以及未來它的功能如何，我相信未來立法院這邊會有很多的討論。畢竟維護人權不只是國家人權委員會，包含司法院，包含立法院，各個機關都在做，有沒有必要再去設置人權委員會，以及制定它的職權行使法……"],["李秘書長俊俋：翁委員，我可以跟您說明一下嗎？這在2019討論國家人權委員會組織法的時候就有充分的討論，要成立這個獨立的所謂的人權機關最主要是因為我們有簽署巴黎原則，就是這個公約、兩公約的部分，臺灣是一個簽署國，那臺灣就應該照這樣來做，所以有必要成立一個獨立的人權機關，這就是設在監察院的理由。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，謝謝，謝謝秘書長的說明。如果說國家人權委員會是這麼重視人權，它是一個獨立的機關，它是獨立於行政、獨立於司法及各方面其他的行政機關，以及發揮它的職權，請問為什麼大家普遍對於國家人權委員會的認知是它並沒有好好的去捍衛、去維護我們現在談的諸種問題，就是最近所發生的許多人權問題，就以陸配設籍縮短年限的問題為例，以及剛剛前面幾位委員有談到的禁團令問題，其實它都是涉及到人民的遷徙自由，還有就是作為一個已經嫁到臺灣來的陸配，她在臺灣居留的權利，難道這個部分跟人權無關嗎？國家人權委員會有站在超然的立場去思考、去討論這個議題嗎？有出面說要捍衛我們國人的遷徙權利以及陸配的居留權嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟翁委員報告這兩個概念，第一個，堅持各種階級、各種種族、貧富都一律平等，這是國家人權委員會堅持的。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：但是您剛剛提到的陸配跟外配，我剛剛已經說明過了，他的適用法律不同，無法把他同列來比較，因為一個適用的是兩岸人民關係條例，一個是所謂的移民法，這個都不一樣的……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，謝謝秘書長。如果是按照您的邏輯……"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以要不要放棄國籍就有差別。"],["翁委員曉玲：如果按照您的邏輯，其實我們要國家人權委員會做什麼？我們直接適用現在的法律，行政機關執行就可以了，就完全按照行政機關的意思做，那麼我們要一個國家人權委員會有什麼意義？"],["李秘書長俊俋：如果國家定出來的法律……"],["翁委員曉玲：不好意思。我再來想要談的就是，國家人權委員會的定位，如果它是一個超然獨立，它必須要有更高的制高點去看待我們臺灣各式各樣人權保障的議題，那麼就不應該去談：現在是我們法律這樣規定，以及行政機關是如何執行。這樣的話，我認為其實真的就沒有成立國家人權委員會的必要。"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有，翁委員你提的是兩個完全不同的概念……"],["翁委員曉玲：以現在它有沒有職權來說，其實沒有意義。"],["李秘書長俊俋：您提的是完全不同的概念。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我要問另外一個問題，其實在這些年來，大家對於監察院到底有沒有善盡、發揮它的職權，對於行政機關進行嚴格的監督，其實社會上都認為監察院好像看起來沒有太多的作為，剛剛羅智強委員其實也有提到監察院近年來所做的彈劾案等等，其實件數是很低的，尤其是針對於部會首長的彈劾案，似乎也只有六、七件的樣子，但是從疫情以來到現在，我們看到很多部會首長其實都做了一些錯誤的政策，機關在很多執行的部分其實有些問題，但是看起來監察院並沒有主動的、積極的去瞭解，就算是有，也都是從輕發落，我們期待的是監察院它是一個鐵的紀律，捍衛臺灣的公務系統能夠依法行政，而不是都是給這些行政機關施以愛的教育，只是勸他們檢討改進，其實這樣子沒有太大的效果。"],["李秘書長俊俋：翁委員，我跟您報告，監察院的重點是查公務員有沒有違法失職，所以……"],["翁委員曉玲：還包含行政機關有沒有違法……"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以不是違法失職的部分……"],["翁委員曉玲：它基本上是糾正，不只是公務員，還包含行政機關，所以除了彈劾案之外，還有……"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以是糾正嘛！我剛告訴你……"],["翁委員曉玲：糾正案也很少，那麼就糾正案……"],["李秘書長俊俋：糾正案不少，糾正案有兩百多案，不少喔！"],["翁委員曉玲：跟之前相比……而且糾正的程度也不是……"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以我說明得很清楚，監察院依照憲法的規定，我們行使我們的職權，至於滿不滿意，那是委員個人的評斷，我們沒有意見。"],["翁委員曉玲：我是代表背後眾多的民意……"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有，每個人都有不同的意見。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以跟監察院來表示意見。另外，你們這次談到你們的立法計畫，個人認為其實最應該立法就是將監察委員行為法具體的落實，比照像是立法院立法委員行為法一樣，你們現在只是弄一個什麼監察委員的自律規範，其實對於……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們沒有監察委員行為法。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以我認為這應該是你們要積極提出的修法案，當然你們不提，我也可以來提，如果是就監察院，你們現在要提你們的立法計畫，看起來陽光法案也不是你們的主責什麼的，我倒是建議你們回去可以好好思考一下，是不是應該要將你們監察委員的自律規範提升它的法律位階，比照像是立法委員行為法一樣，讓它成為一個具體可行，而且真的對於約束那些違法而且不適格的監察委員可以有更具體的約束。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我不知道不適格的監察委員怎麼樣定義，我們現在有監察委員自律規範。"],["翁委員曉玲：這個部分你可以多去參考。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們有自律規範。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，就是自律規範的法律位階不夠，它的懲處也不夠，這是本席給你們的建議。以上我希望未來監察院能夠針對於行政機關還有部會首長多多的督促，而且在進行相關的調查、彈劾以及糾正案的時候，能夠給予更清楚明確的相關措施的指示，謝謝。"],["李秘書長俊俋：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁委員，謝謝李秘書長。","因為先前已經作過宣告，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時5分）","繼續開會（11時10分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會，請吳委員思瑤進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","陳俊宇","羅智強","傅崐萁","林思銘","吳宗憲","謝龍介","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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那是委員個人的評斷 這個我們沒有意見"},{"start":539.071,"end":563.504,"text":"我是代表背後眾多的民意所以你這個監察院來表示意見另外還有就是你們這次談到你們的這個立法計畫是個人認為其實最應該立法就是將監察委員行為法具體的落實比照像是立法院立法委員行為法一樣你們現在只是弄一個什麼監察委員的自律規範我們沒有監察委員行為法"},{"start":568.243,"end":595.949,"text":"是所以我認為這是應該你們要積極提出的修法案當然就是說你們不提我也可以來提如果說是就監察院你們現在要提立法計畫那看一下陽光法案也不是你們的主責什麼的話我倒是建議你們回去可以好好思考一下是不是應該要將你們的立法委員的自律規範提升他的法律位階比照像是立法委員行為法一樣"},{"start":597.87,"end":625.284,"text":"這個讓他成為一個具體可行而且真的對於約束那些這個違法而且這個不適格的監察委員可以有更具體的約束我不知道不適格的監察委員怎麼樣定義那我們現在有監察委員自律規範我們有自律規範是就自律規範的法律未接不夠那麼他的懲處也不夠這是本席給你們的建議"},{"start":626.667,"end":626.747,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"149664","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149664","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43006cf5cc984565050daea18303c979697ef8ba9b0039caa7a6ef0ba9769f5742f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"10:43:53 - 10:54:21","影片長度":"00:10:28","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-5"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":628,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:54:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:43:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":769,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（10時44分）感謝主席。請秘書長。"],["主席：有請李秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：謝委員你好。"],["謝委員龍介：你好，秘書長精神不錯。主席對你非常疼惜，主席說彼此都是憲法機關，所以你今天是以關係院的原因來這裡，就好像我們請總統來國情報告一樣，既不能問更不能碰，我相信你個人不會這樣。"],["李秘書長俊俋：依照職權行使法規定。"],["謝委員龍介：主席與貴黨同仁可以替你緩頰，不過我認為你個人不應該有這種心態……"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有。"],["謝委員龍介：譬如我今天是以秘書長的身分來，我覺得這樣不好。為什麼呢？因為你會出錯，我之所以能體諒你是因為你剛就任半年……"],["李秘書長俊俋：4個月。"],["謝委員龍介：4個月，對不對？所以還不適應。剛才傅崐萁委員說憲法規定人民有旅行與遷徙的自由，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，沒有錯。"],["謝委員龍介：沒錯吧？那就表示行政院違憲了？"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有啦！行政院違不違憲不是由立法院或監察院決定的。"],["謝委員龍介：你聽我說。你不能這樣回答，你剛才說沒有……"],["李秘書長俊俋：因為……"],["謝委員龍介：你今天是監察院的秘書長，但現在你又變成李委員了……"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有、沒有，我是要向……"],["謝委員龍介：對不對？我這樣評論的意思就是，譬如這是本院跟行政院的事情，主席以這個角度對你特別優待，結果本院委員評論行政院時，你卻這樣回答，這樣就不好了！這是我個人的見解。"],["李秘書長俊俋：謝謝謝委員的指教。"],["謝委員龍介：我能體諒你的是，過去你當委員是主張廢除監察院的……"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，沒錯！"],["謝委員龍介：我請教你，你是不是政治人物？你也算政治人物。政治人物必須一以貫之，要一輩子受檢驗，這點你我都一樣。今天你上到這位置，我很無奈也很不捨，大材小用啊！為什麼貴黨會做此安排，讓你這麼為難？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我沒有這種感覺。"],["謝委員龍介：你沒有這種感覺？你過去主張監察院廢掉，結果你今天當秘書長，坐上這位置領這份薪水，都不會覺得不好意思？或對監察院同仁覺得不好意思，因為以前說要廢掉，現在突然間來當你們的長官？依照人性……"],["李秘書長俊俋：尚未修憲前，都必須依照憲法規定進行，這是我今天來的目的。"],["謝委員龍介：你會覺得難堪嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：不會。"],["謝委員龍介：都不會？佩服，佩服！"],["李秘書長俊俋：依照憲法的職權來行使。"],["謝委員龍介：那我佩服你！由於我們簽署人權兩公約，所以4月份將進行廢除死刑的憲法法庭辯論，你們會派人參加嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：國家人權委員會被司法院指定為鑑定機關。"],["謝委員龍介：鑑定機關？你們有立場嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：國家人權委員會有立場。"],["謝委員龍介：有立場？你知道現在的立場大概是怎麼樣嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們希望依照目標來達到廢除死刑，但如何做成則交由委員討論，這不是我可以決定的，這是我們的中程計畫。"],["謝委員龍介：但目的就是要廢除就對了？目標，是目標，希望大家努力。"],["李秘書長俊俋：社會有共識的話會比較容易，這是兩公約的條件。"],["謝委員龍介：因為人權公約，所以民進黨全力主張廢除死刑……"],["李秘書長俊俋：這不是民進黨主張的！"],["謝委員龍介：就是民進黨的主張，沒錯啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：民進黨到現在怎麼主張，我不知道，因為我現在不涉入黨派……"],["謝委員龍介：民進黨就是如此主張，只是不好意思做……"],["李秘書長俊俋：現在不涉入黨派……"],["謝委員龍介：由於民意反彈，所以現在就比較少說了……"],["李秘書長俊俋：臺灣是兩公約的簽署國，所以臺灣會依照兩公約來做……"],["謝委員龍介：如果這麼關心人權的話，為什麼中國大陸嫁過來的人要跟別的國家嫁來的人不一樣？"],["李秘書長俊俋：使用的條文不一樣，適用的條文不一樣。"],["謝委員龍介：一樣是關心人權，要公平待之，好不好？"],["李秘書長俊俋：用的法律不同。"],["謝委員龍介：你覺得貴院委員的組成需要更多元嗎？我說的是色彩，政黨色彩需要更多元嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：現在已經很多元了，要更多元的話也可以。"],["謝委員龍介：現在已經很多元了？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，我們裡面有醫師、律師，也有立委，都有。"],["謝委員龍介：你才剛去4個月，我想你不是聽不懂。如果我講國語你可能會聽不懂，但我講臺語，你應該聽得懂啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我聽得懂，所以我也回答得很清楚，現在監察院的組成以多元為目標……"],["謝委員龍介：我是說政黨的政治色彩背景需要更多元嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們裡面民進黨占少數。"],["謝委員龍介：你不錯，很行，可以出國比賽！剛才因為你說不要用數字來討論監委的辦案，你們一年的預算差不多多少錢？"],["李秘書長俊俋：差不多10億。"],["謝委員龍介：10億左右嘛，辦案數究竟多或少，我跟你討論這個實在是沒意思，因為算起來你們等於每一個月調查不到一個案件啦！依照委員的比例來說。但是如果不要用案件調查數來看你們，我就來說一下實質的東西，譬如說食品安全這個東西，蘇丹紅也好，包括很重要，你們過去已經有去查的部分，但你們查一查，結果你們還認為監察這些管理食品安全的機關是不是有失能，我坦白跟你說，這不用去查嘛，這為何需要查，光看報紙也知道，對不對？去年12月11日食藥署就已經要求邊境，對於從中國大陸進口的這些辣椒粉，100%都要逐批審查，逐批逐批都要檢驗，結果依然是一大堆進口進來，這顯然就是有問題嘛！所以你們現在說要再繼續查這個，我認為沒有必要。","比較重要的是，在你來監察院以前，2020年的7月，監察院用一年的時間去調查所謂食品雲的問題，也就是去調查食品雲的缺失，不知道你有沒有看過這個報告？你有沒有看過？請你的幕僚跟你說明一下，就是說，當初你們在調查時就已經發現很多缺失了，結果經過這一、二年來，尤其是現在又發生食品安全的問題，比如說我跟你說的，這是很「眉角」的嘛，你們過去就曾經調查過，而且發現有這些問題啊，結果這一、二年來，你們有去檢討整個食品雲的預測，包括它的預警，包括它有沒有什麼不妥當的地方？你們去調查過了喔，你們也把缺失寫出來了，結果現在又再發生這樣的情況，這樣花這麼多錢去建立一個雲端的系統有什麼用！我請教你，你的態度是怎麼樣？"],["李秘書長俊俋：好，我跟謝委員報告，有關食品雲的部分，我們是在107年進行調查，現在持續追蹤當中，看它的成效跟後續的反映。有關食品安全彙報的部分是在110年查的，食安五環的部分是109年查的，蘇丹紅的部分並沒有……"],["謝委員龍介：不是，我知道啦，但你們查完之後發現有這麼多缺失……"],["李秘書長俊俋：現在才有。"],["謝委員龍介：它有這麼多缺失，現在又查到爆出這麼嚴重問題的事件，你們過去那一年的調查就等於白費了嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以我剛才有說明，我們還在持續追蹤當中，因為不是我們查完之後就算了，我們還要追蹤耶。"],["謝委員龍介：我就是說你們沒追蹤嘛！今天如果有繼續追蹤……"],["李秘書長俊俋：都有。"],["謝委員龍介：有針對它的缺失給予指正，它就會產生遏止的效果，只要產生遏止的效果，今天這些業者就不會這麼「好膽」了！我請教你，海關退運之後，這些產品有可能不退運，只更改其中的文件，就再度進來嗎？我請教你！"],["李秘書長俊俋：這是行政院的職權，我不方便說明。"],["謝委員龍介：你們過去調查的案件有沒有這種情況？這樣說比較快啦。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟謝委員報告，我剛剛已經唸給謝委員聽了……"],["謝委員龍介：不是啦，你們過去調查的所有案件，包括食品、包括進口……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我不清楚。"],["謝委員龍介：你不清楚，列席人員裡面有人清楚嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我請他們說明一下。"],["謝委員龍介：監察院辦這麼多案件，我請教你的目的就是這樣啊，所以你不能來備詢的時候都不給我們問啊！至少讓我們問一、兩件嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分，有關食品雲……"],["謝委員龍介：這樣好了，你提供書面給我啦。"],["李秘書長俊俋：好，我提供書面給委員。"],["謝委員龍介：因為這牽涉到這一次的食安風暴，你應該知道嘛，有人出去以後……"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，蘇丹紅的部分現在已經在調查了，這個部分我會提供書面給謝委員。"],["謝委員龍介：好，秘書長，祝福你！"],["李秘書長俊俋：謝謝。好"],["主席：謝謝謝委員，也謝謝李秘書長。接下來由翁委員曉玲發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","陳俊宇","羅智強","傅崐萁","林思銘","吳宗憲","謝龍介","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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為什麼呢 因為你會脫財 我可以體諒你就是因為你拿來報擔嘛 四個位 四個位嘛 對不對所以還不適應啊 譬如說剛才布魂基委員在說 憲法簽署規定人民有流行及承受的自由 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 對不對 就是說 就是說 如果這樣就是表示行政委員喔"},{"start":110.933,"end":115.839,"text":"你今天是監察院的秘書長你又變成立委員了你對不對沒有啦主席我現在這樣評論就是說"},{"start":131.229,"end":154.234,"text":"本意及行政委員會主席就是用這個角度．對你特別優待．結果本意的委員在評論．行政委員時．你出來應援 這樣就不好了我個人的見解啦好 謝謝小委員的指教阿不然 譬如說 我提供你就是說過去你做委員的時候你主張會讀及參議嘛"},{"start":156.938,"end":181.171,"text":"在這樣的情況下,我請教你是不是政治人物?你也算政治人物,政治人物就是一理貫治,要一事人分檢驗啊。你我都一樣啊。所以今天你來到這個位置,我也很無奈,我也很不敢啊。大宰相擁啊,想要整棟的做這個安排,讓你這麼為難。"},{"start":183.885,"end":187.589,"text":"我沒有這個感覺你過去要把監察院廢掉呢?你今天來這裡做秘書長 你在這裡坐這個位子這個薪水你都不覺得抱歉抱歉 監察院這裡的董事說 抱歉啊 以前我說要把你們廢掉 現在鄉鄉來做你們的董事"},{"start":205.168,"end":208.71,"text":"在我們的臨時﹖在我們的臨時﹖在我們的臨時﹖在我們的臨時﹖在我們的臨時﹖在我們的臨時﹖在我們的臨時﹖在我們的臨時﹖"},{"start":235.137,"end":239.72,"text":"國家人權委員會被司法院指定為鑑定機關國家人權委員會有立場嗎?我們希望依照目標來達到廢死死刑的目標但是如何的做成這個由委員來討論這不是我可以決定"},{"start":262.085,"end":263.586,"text":"這個不是民進黨主張的民進黨的主張啦 沒不對啦"},{"start":280.603,"end":287.568,"text":"民進黨到現在怎麼主張我不知道 因為現在我不涉及黨派現在不涉及黨派阿現在民意寬大阿現在就沒什麼要說阿東郵東一顆星阿如果這麼關心人權為什麼中國大陸嫁來的人要跟法律國家嫁來的人不一樣適用的條文不一樣對不對 不然如果是關心人權阿我們就要公平的態勢"},{"start":310.863,"end":316.269,"text":"你覺得幾年的這個委員的成分啊齁 組織啊 有需要再加多完嗎"},{"start":322.864,"end":323.224,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":350.007,"end":357.872,"text":"監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標"},{"start":379.674,"end":407.114,"text":"辦案這個我和你討論這個實在沒意思因為辦起來這個位你們調查沒到一個案件委員的那個比率但是不要說用案件調查來給你看我來說事實啦譬如說食品安全這個東西蘇丹鴻也好包括很重要你們過去已經有去查的喔你查查的結果你還在"},{"start":410.917,"end":422.165,"text":"認為說 監察這個 管理食品安全的機關是不是有失靈我坦白跟你說 這不用去查嘛這比較有差 剛剛看報紙也知道對嗎 今年12月11日 那個食油署就已經要求 邊境對中國大陸 身靠的這個"},{"start":433.157,"end":438.581,"text":"發言委員：謝龍介說明立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第1屆第2會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":457.174,"end":471.709,"text":"監察院用一段時間去調查所謂的食品雲 食品雲呢 會缺失就對了你不知道我看過這個報告嗎 你覺得 如果你給我說明一下就是說你們當機時 調查就有很多個角色"},{"start":480.373,"end":487.198,"text":"那麼經過這兩天來 尤其現在又有問題發生食品安全的問題例如我告訴你這是很危險嘛 你過去就調查 有這些問題啊 結果這兩天來 你有去檢討整個食品營的預測 包括它的預警 包括它還有什麼不正確的地方 你去調查過了喔"},{"start":504.071,"end":511.794,"text":"我請教你,你的態度是如何?因為食品運營的部分我們已經一百多千年調查,現在持續追蹤當中,看它的成效及後續的反應有關食品安全匯報的部分是在110年查的,食品食安五環的部分是109年查的"},{"start":531.923,"end":534.507,"text":"你查了他有這麼多缺失他有這麼多缺失 啊現在查了這麼大的事情出來這樣你過去那一天的調查就被你白費了嘛"},{"start":543.2,"end":551.343,"text":"所以我剛才有說明我們還在持續追蹤當中因為不是我們查了就算了我們還追蹤我就是說你們沒有追蹤嘛今天如果繼續有追蹤有針對他的課程有跟他知情他就會三成有格好過有有格好過今天你這麼嚇唬就不太好我請教你啦海關退運了後這個三品有可能沒有退運"},{"start":572.031,"end":576.596,"text":"我請教你你過去調查的案件有這樣嗎 這樣說快點不是啦 你過去調查的所有發掘食品包括進口我沒有清澈你沒有清澈 那裡面的人有清澈嗎"},{"start":598.271,"end":598.591,"text":"秘書長很理智"},{"start":628.238,"end":628.259,"text":"好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149663","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149663","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43002b4ad4fc929f7ca61cfe294bc3fbc1e0f8ba9b0039caa7a6326f75fe264bb47e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"10:53:45 - 11:02:52","影片長度":"00:09:07","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部列席就「國家運動科學中心如何協助運動選手，提升參加國際競賽成績之具體作為。」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":547,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:02:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:53:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":709,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（10時53分）謝謝召委安排今天這個專報，有請次長跟署長。"],["主席：有請次長、署長。"],["林次長騰蛟：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：次長早安、署長早安。我想先問署長好了，待會就請次長再監督了，署長您上任已經1年了嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["范委員雲：超過1年了。今天我主要有兩個大題，還有三個算起來應該是小題，第一個就是剛剛您有回應陳委員還有其他委員關注女足球員被迫簽不平等合約的問題，包含不得從事表演、廣告代言，然後所有這些影音權利都歸協會，我想請問您，您剛剛講的是解決個案，那體育署到底如何在通案上避免不平等的合約再次上演？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這件事情有分兩個層面，第一個，足協一開始理事長……"],["范委員雲：我們先不用討論個案了，我是說整體的部分，因為這不是第一次，像之前戴資穎的「球鞋門」，就是被支持他的廣大球迷發現這完全違反國際規範，當時也是個案處理，我現在問的是通案，就是體育署用什麼方法避免再次被報導、再次爆發，甚至還要立委關心？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我的作法是這樣，因為這幾次不管是網球、籃球、足球連環爆的這些議題，所以我也通案請各個協會，同時我也將在這個月舉辦一場跟協會的座談；我在媒體上也在宣導，如果你有職業球員、你有7個聯賽、你有領薪水的情況下，球團……"],["范委員雲：署長，我們已經沒有時間等這些協會跟您座談一一改變了。"],["鄭署長世忠：我在新聞稿上已經說明，這一定要做一個座談，要多方討論，利益相關者要進來，不可以只有協會自己做。"],["范委員雲：我們看一下2021年，當時我們極地超馬好手林義傑就已經點出問題，就是因為沒有一個契約的規範，當時我們教文委員會就有委員建議教育部應該要提出契約範本，可是到現在你們都沒做。我就在想，為什麼文化部在我們的監督下，現在上文化部的網站，就有文化藝術工作者的契約範本專區，教育部體育署為什麼做不到呢？這件事情已經從戴資穎到現在，如果沒有立委幫他們關心，或者它沒有辦法大到上新聞的話，難道我們等你們慢慢跟這些協會來座談、來輔導嗎？藝文工作者權益的保障當然是重要的，文化部能做到，體育署是不是可以也向文化部學習，提出體育選手跟協會的契約範本然後上網公告呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我完全認同，這部分我們會來進行。"],["范委員雲：謝謝喔！因為時間有限，請問什麼時候之前可以完成上網，可不可以給我一個時間點？"],["鄭署長世忠：因為我們還需要與一些專家學者一起會談，可不可以給我們3個月的時間？"],["范委員雲：好，那就3個月後我們來監督。","下一題，其實根本來講，就是因為體育有協會在處理這些事情，產業的部分則有那些產業，可是運動選手沒有人站在他們的權益上來保障，所以我剛剛已經講了，我一直倡議應該讓運動員組工會，你看我110年、111年、112年、113年每年審預算都追這個，但仍是緩步前進。之前為什麼沒有很嚴厲地來問體育署，您應該知道為什麼，因為我們之前沒有署長，我們次長手下要管多少事，教育部這麼大的部，所以剛剛林宜瑾委員提到希望升格，我也非常的支持。現在署長您來1年了，我可以追問這件事了，你們下面每次回應我們都是緩步前進，請問您，體育署應該是站在協會這邊，還是站在選手這邊？如果一定要二選一，你站誰那邊？"],["鄭署長世忠：不管是選手跟協會，都是我的左右手，都是我的伙伴。"],["范委員雲：那您一天到晚跟協會座談，請問您跟體育選手有座談過嗎？您上任以後有嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們前一陣子就網球的部分已經有在進行了。"],["范委員雲：只有一個網球，請問你，我們體育署下面有多少協會？"],["鄭署長世忠：目前的確這部分因為這幾次的事件……"],["范委員雲：我要的是數字，體育署下面我們有多少協會？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們目前有72個……"],["范委員雲：有72個協會，您知道有幾個協會有選手組成工會嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：目前有籃球、棒球以及女足工會。"],["范委員雲：七十二分之三，我已經要到了，就是七十二分之三，所以這樣子……"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們如果是以沒有拿薪資的部分，因為目前是以國體法裡面的運動員委員會為主；但如果是有拿薪水的部分，的確這部分我們可以來協助。"],["范委員雲：七十二分之三，不到10%，低於我們全臺灣的工會覆蓋率，全臺灣已經是世界倒數的了，我們辦公室一直跟你們索資，你們就一直推給勞動部，教育部有教師協會、教師工會；教育部要輔導學生成立學生會。因為你的對象不是只有協會，但你聽不到他們的聲音，而且你們給我的報告中，我還要求你們去研究其他國家的部分，研究了半天，也沒有給我一個研究成果，最後結論就是你們要提供適時且必要之協助，那是不是也可以在2個月內給我具體的適時且必要之協助的方法、辦法，好不好？可以吧？因為您上任1年了，我現在才催，可是我們已經盯了4年了，我不知道你們屬下寫東西都緩步，也不方便問次長這麼多問題，畢竟已經問過很多問題了，所以這次2個月內給我們具體的措施、鼓勵辦法，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：好。"],["范委員雲：最後一題，也是我之前質詢時在追的，就是黃金計畫選手遴選機制不公開、不透明，這是這麼重要的一個資源，謝謝上次署長您承諾要公開，你們給我的報告還說要公開名單、增加保密及利益迴避規範，然後增加任用條件、強化專業，表示你們有看到問題，像有利益沒有迴避的問題等等。你給我的報告說113年起要公開，只要是任期結束就可以公開，請問署長，幾月幾日叫113年起？"],["鄭署長世忠：1月1號開始。"],["范委員雲：1月1號嘛！那你知不知道你們後來是什麼時候公開？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，是昨天。"],["范委員雲：昨天？你們給我們立委的承諾是1月1號，如果我們不盯的話，變成昨天才公開。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分我昨天的確有跟國訓中心查詢，國訓中心的人員的確有致歉。"],["范委員雲：致歉？"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分他們接下來會好好……"],["范委員雲：跟誰致歉？我都沒聽到。他要跟我們致歉，跟所有關心體育的人致歉，因為自己承諾的事情都做不到。你知不知道他為什麼昨天會公開嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：因為委員辦公室有提醒，所以我也……"],["范委員雲：不是辦公室提醒，我們一直催，到今天要專案報告，昨天才公開！大家看一下，你們答應今年1月1號公開，我們立委如果不追的話，答應的事情像蒸發一樣。你看上網的公開名單，從第1屆多少年前到第6屆，3月10號才上網，你們承諾的是1月1號，對不對？他們早就卸任了。請署長要盯緊一下，你們體育署下面的問題應該很大，如果范雲辦公室忘記這件事，沒有盯這件事情就當作沒有說過，我這樣講不為過吧？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分我會協同新任的國訓中心執行長，好好在這部分……"],["范委員雲：好，署長，我對你的期待很高，因為我們這麼久沒有署長。之前記得戴資穎飛機的席位引發問題，那是因為戴資穎有這麼多人支持他，可是很多選手沒有辦法po一個臉書文就得到這麼多支持。署長上任只有一年，這不是你任內的錯，可是拜託您今天承諾的事情務必完成，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：好。"],["范委員雲：我剛剛講，你給我的報告承諾要做到增加任用條件、強化跨領域專業、增加保密跟利益迴避的規範，因為體育署下面的人讓我很難信任，可不可以把你們的報告白紙黑字列入競強會設置及運作要點，好不好？好，什麼時候可以修到裡面，然後給我辦公室跟教文的委員一個報告？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分可能還牽涉到董事會，是不是給我們三個月的時間？"],["范委員雲：沒關係，給你一點時間，你要多少都看你講。"],["鄭署長世忠：我覺得半年比較可行。"],["范委員雲：半年？好。"],["鄭署長世忠：對，因為……"],["范委員雲：那就半年，體育改革不差這半年，好不好？署長，我們會盯，就是半年。"],["鄭署長世忠：好，謝謝委員。"],["范委員雲：謝謝主席。"],["林次長騰蛟：好，謝謝范委員。"],["范委員雲：請次長幫忙監督，好嗎？謝謝。"],["林次長騰蛟：謝謝范委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝范雲委員。","再來先處理臨時提案。今天有委員提出臨時提案，共計2案。請宣讀。","一、","運科中心成立目地主要為運動員提供更多系統化、科學化的體能訓練、運動防護、物理治療、運動心理及運動營養等支援，讓運動員的訓練過程更為精準又安全。運動員為了追求比賽成果及創造佳績，除了大量體能消耗以外，也承受巨大的心理壓力，所以建立良好的心理素質及支持機制，對於運動員比賽表現、長期身心健康都有所助益。","運科中心尚未成立前，作為國訓中心的運科處，負責「運動心理諮詢」領域的專業人員只有5名。過去亦有報導指出，全台只有54名具備資格的運動心理諮詢老師，其中不到2成的人能在體育界有全職服務機會。運動心理諮商需要長期密切追蹤選手狀態、因選手及運動項目「量身量心」打造。然而，實務上只有有望得獎的項目及選手能分配到心理師，或是只有在選手備賽期間才得以獲得短期的諮商輔導服務。","比起選手身體狀況可依靠儀器檢查，由檢查結果和數字來證明；選手的心理健康、對運動員的成長和成績影響都難以被具象化，往往被忽略、不受重視。儘管近年國際頂尖選手現身說法，倡議後，運動員的「幸福感」逐漸被關注，但當專業人員不到位，選手心理健康需求更難被看見。","近年許多運動員的親身經歷及專家研究都指出，運動員心理健康的重要性及連動運動表現的影響，對運動員的長期生涯發展有所幫助（包含退役後轉職出路及心理狀態）。爰提案要求運科中心加強培育運動心理師，儘速提升運動心理師員額及勞動條件，進而完備運動員的心理支持制度。","提案人：洪孟楷　　羅廷瑋　　吳春城　　范　雲　　萬美玲　　林宜瑾　　吳沛憶　　陳培瑜　　","二、","立法委員陳培瑜、牛煦庭、吳沛憶、黃健豪於2月27日共同主辦「足球青年聯賽精進辦理座談會」，本擬透過體育署、足球協會與台灣基層足球家長與俱樂部之交流，共同討論青年聯賽如何得以永續辦理的可能性。然該場座談會中，中華足協卻拒絕體育署邀請缺席本次座談會，顯見體育署對於足協協會之監理輔導已經嚴重失能。而無論是足球協會改選後對於青年聯賽態度消極，然體育署卻又執意補助中華足協辦理該賽事、目前足球協會組成缺乏民主機制與溝通，以及青年聯賽對於台灣足球基層發展之重要性與永續經營可能等面向，均為與會家長、教練與球員們關注方向。爰此，請體育署於四月底前針對青年聯賽的永續辦理可能，無論是朝向委辦或是開放申請補助的形式，對立法院教育及文化委員會提出報告，讓關心此議題的足球參與者了解體育署對本議題之正面回應。","提案人：陳培瑜","連署人：黃健豪　　郭昱晴　　范　雲　　吳沛憶　　牛煦庭　　林宜瑾　　洪孟楷　　吳春城"],["主席：好，請問提案委員有無補充說明或意見？好，陳培瑜委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們提的那一案，剛剛教育部有來溝通，希望我們把「嚴重失能」改成「不足」，我們可以接受，是不是也請教育部確定一下這樣的寫法OK？"],["主席：好，我們請林次長。"],["林次長騰蛟：好，跟委員報告一下，第一案我們配合辦理。第二案也謝謝提案的陳培瑜委員同意，我們做文字上的修正，就是第五行後半的「已經嚴重失能」這六個字改為「不足」，這個部分我們修正後配合辦理，以上說明。謝謝。"],["主席：好，我們請范雲委員。"],["范委員雲：我想針對第二案補充一下，因為我是共提人。剛剛已經講到足協的問題，監理看起來問題真的滿大的，通案上也要請教育部多努力。謝謝。"],["主席：我們再請洪孟楷委員發言。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，感謝召委。第一案行政部門就是照案通過，而且非常認同，也感謝所有的提案委員，但是幾個部分，第一，是不是能夠再給本席以及教文委員會的委員資料，就是目前為止，運動心理師現在配置的人數跟運作的狀況？第二個部分，我們有提到物理治療相對重要，但是今天比較遺憾的是沒有看到物理治療的部分。你們講的是原則，但是到底實際的設備現在有哪些？是不是也請國訓中心給本席資料？我們看到最近NBA得4萬分的LeBron James可以打得那麼好，持續那麼久的選手生命，因為他常常說他有用極度冷凍液態氮的修復艙，國訓中心有沒有這樣的設備？有這樣的設備的話有幾臺？我查到的資料顯示，2018年有職棒球團引進，國訓中心也有寫到這個有助於修復，可是到底有幾臺？選手要用的時候是不是有足夠的時間可以使用，而不是大家要排隊或是看得到用不到？這部分對選手的設備我們該加強要加強，好不好？請給本席跟教文委員會的委員這樣的資料。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪孟楷委員。","這兩案中的第一案照案通過，第二案修正通過。好，各提案如果有委員要補簽，請議事人員詳細登載在議事錄，可以來這邊補簽。","好，接下來繼續進行質詢，請羅美玲委員質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":280,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","萬美玲","葉元之","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","范雲","羅美玲","牛煦庭","吳春城","徐巧芯","黃國昌","柯志恩","林倩綺","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":219,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部列席就「國家運動科學中心如何協助運動選手，提升參加國際競賽成績之具體作\n為。」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":4.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.202843750000001,"end":16.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.93971875,"end":17.294093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.26034375,"end":52.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.93409375,"end":53.018468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.018468750000004,"end":59.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.75596875,"end":84.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.40534375,"end":62.367218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.39659375,"end":63.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.19346875000001,"end":67.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.89159375,"end":82.38096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.15284375,"end":105.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.52409375,"end":84.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.87221875,"end":99.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.32346875,"end":99.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.55096875000001,"end":101.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.13721875,"end":109.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.02659375,"end":116.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.17784375000001,"end":175.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.29471875000002,"end":177.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.50534375,"end":182.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.16284375,"end":186.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.26346875000002,"end":243.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.67221875,"end":248.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.00971875000002,"end":246.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.63784375,"end":249.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.40971875000002,"end":254.42159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.57346875000002,"end":255.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.64096875,"end":255.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.73784375000002,"end":258.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.31971875,"end":261.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.99846875000003,"end":266.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.42409375,"end":267.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.33096875,"end":269.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.20409375,"end":273.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.84471875,"end":277.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.15221875000003,"end":283.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.29471875,"end":293.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.41971875,"end":296.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.00159375000004,"end":298.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.49096875000004,"end":336.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.83909375,"end":368.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.12096875000003,"end":389.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.75909375000003,"end":389.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.77596875,"end":391.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.81784375,"end":396.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.08721875000003,"end":396.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.94784375,"end":405.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.63846875,"end":416.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.94096875,"end":414.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.64534375000005,"end":418.14284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.61096875000004,"end":419.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.76284375,"end":426.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.00221875000005,"end":427.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.79534375000003,"end":430.79909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.93034375,"end":428.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.95534375000005,"end":433.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.34284375000004,"end":467.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.95784375000005,"end":473.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.71721875000003,"end":468.76784375000005},{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10:57:56","影片長度":"00:12:54","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-4"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":774,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:57:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:45:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":403,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時45分）麻煩請局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，陳委員早！"],["陳委員冠廷：局長，我先針對國安局統合的角色進行質詢，我把它簡單地做一個統整，大概就是反斬首、反滲透、反間諜、反介選、反恐攻，其中在你們的政策方針裡面，我看到屢次出現「預警」這兩個字，預警就是在可能發生的國家安全事件之前先提出來，來警告國人或者是相關的機關。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：在最近其實不只是臺灣，在美國常常會有一些相關的、重大的預警措施，比方說美國有對俄羅斯、莫斯科的美國公民發出警告，有可能會有極端分子發動攻擊，比方說在一些重大的基礎建設發生恐怖攻擊，或者是有可能的電子襲擊之前，美國也可能會提出警告。我想知道國安局針對重大危及國家安全事件的時候，你們的預警機制是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：依照國安局組織法跟國家情報工作法，國安局本來就負責指導、統合、協調國內總共11個情報機關跟視同情報機關。就情報作業的角度來講，對於各種可能造成國家安全的危害，不管是來自於內部或外部，我們都會跟我們的協情單位，也就是11個情報跟協同情報機關透過各種的專案，利用專案的機制蒐集相關的情資，也會把相關的情資及最新掌握的狀況跟相關部會來分享，以便事先應處，不是在事件發生之後再應處，而是能夠事先預警來應處。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長。我的意思是在你們具體掌握情資、統整各個情報機構之後，你們足夠的相信可能會在48小時或24小時發生，你們有沒有辦法在全國的面前做出預警？比方說國防部之前針對飛行器或者是超過卡門線的相關飛行物經過時，他們會出現預警，但我們講的不是這一種，我們講的是有可能立即危害公眾安全的狀況，你們有這樣的機制嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有。我剛剛提到的專案機制，就是類似委員所提醒的。"],["陳委員冠廷：發布的標準呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：發布的標準要看相關的樣態，因為安全威脅可能會有不同的威脅來源、不同的狀況都有，以我們的機制來講，一定會在第一時間掌握。老實講，在去年的二合一大選，我們這樣的機制運作還算合作地非常密切。"],["陳委員冠廷：我之所以這樣說的原因，我還是要做個結論，即國防部在選前馬上進行通報，透過這樣各個不同的電子裝置通報，造成的效果有人說是……有正有負啦！有一些反效果，也有一些正面的效果，就是至少國防部有掌握。但是我們還是要知道，如果有遇到重大的話，比方說其實幾年前高鐵有一個重大的國家安全事件，就是有人要在相關的這些高鐵引爆炸彈，後來當然是被偵破，所以防止這件事情發生。我的意思是說在遇到重大的緊急災變之前，我們必須需要有一個機制做全民的通報，我想這是非常重要的，因為情報機關重要的是掌握情資並且做預警，不然單純的蒐集情報，然後把它放在檔案庫裡面，沒有任何的意義。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員冠廷：它必須要跟公共安全有直接的結合，這也直接導引到我的下一個問題，我想最近有許多國會議員、我們的立法委員都有接到來自不同的……聽說啦！我們跟不同的機關來去請教，IP位置都是來自境外，這樣子的問題當然警政單位都有在去搜尋可能的可能性、各種不同的可能性，我們也不能夠單純的說這一定來自中國或者是來自哪裡，我們不知道，但我想知道國安局有什麼樣的方式去應處？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個因為已經是一個多年的案子，跟委員大概報告一下，從2021年的9月到昨天為止，網路匿名的恐嚇案件有526件，刑事局也有成立一個專案小組來處理，針對最近所發生的這種網路恐嚇案，我們的相關資訊顯示它是來自於境外的大陸籍人士所發動的，大部分都是由單一的個人來發動。我剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過，主要的恐嚇對象包括有桃園國際機場、總統府、警政署還有各個委員的服務信箱，都有在蒐集相關的資訊，因為主要是來自於境外的陸籍人士，所以這也是為什麼內政部有對外說明，他們也是希望透過兩岸共同打擊犯罪的機制來進行通報，以防止這樣的事情一再一再的發生。"],["陳委員冠廷：這樣子的威脅性其實對於人身安全也好，當然是有一定程度的威脅，但是除了這個之外，他利用這樣子的公眾訊息，在我們一般大眾裡面去操弄不安的訊息，這才是一個很大的問題。因為不管是利用誰的人頭帳戶，他只要把這個訊息傳出去，再透過媒體傳播的話，那大家就會覺得有不安的感覺，好像立法委員受到威脅，可是我們沒辦法能夠在一定的期限內，至少知道大概是什麼樣的機關組織或者是個人做這件事情。所以情報的另外一個工作當然除了內部參考之外，也是向公眾釋出訊息，就是說國安局也好、各大情資單位知道是誰，知道為什麼他們做、知道資金的來源是什麼，這樣的話對民眾來講，是比較能夠確保他們自己會有安全感。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：情報的意義有很多種，因為我想局長也是學者出身，您不是軍人出身，所以你要知道對於國防來講，人民的組成是非常重要的，就是人民反映在輿論、人民反映在各種不同威脅的時候，他們可能會恐慌，我們可能會恐慌，我們也來自民間，所以確保資訊傳播的可信度，我們寧願不說話，但我們講話就要有一定的真憑性，就是要有證據，這個部分我也是希望能夠透過這樣的機會，來跟國安局長講這件事情。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們會注意。"],["陳委員冠廷：再來就是針對中共組織犯罪的部分，我們知道統促黨的何建華等人2020年是遭到檢察官起訴，這個案件我看根據新聞上面來講的話，都是調查局主責，已經有正式的起訴，但是在2月29號有宣判，因為證據不足獲判無罪，這個案子國安局當初有沒有掌握情資？有沒有分享情資？"],["蔡局長明彥：相關的案件我們都有分享情資，也跟委員報告說明一下，怎麼樣讓這些中共對臺灣統戰滲透的案件，它的立案率能夠比較高，事實上最高檢這邊也做了非常多的努力，邀集包括我們的國安單位、檢察機關還有調查機關，甚至還有相關的講習來訓練我們檢察官，在偵辦這些案件的過程當中，可以更知道中共滲透的手法，以及在偵辦查察的過程當中，怎麼樣找到相關的立案指標，將來移送到檢方跟院方成案機會會比較大，這部分大概是我們情報機關在前置作業階段可以努力的重點方向。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以簡而言之，你把法律上面所不足的部分有跟其他的這些機構……"],["蔡局長明彥：有、有、有，要件……"],["陳委員冠廷：要件都有跟他們分享，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個跟委員報告一下，最高檢他們甚至還有一個相關的案例說明以及立案要件的相關指標，目的就是希望在偵辦這些案件，我們法規的要件可以更完備。"],["陳委員冠廷：我特別講到這個法律的部分，是因為我們知道說有不同的，包含調查局、國安局，其實在各個不同的縣市都有駐處、都有駐人員在此地、在各地，這個部分在蒐集情報的方面，或者是說你到時候要正式立案的話，情報的方針就很重要，還有情報的互享也非常重要。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然，是。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們當然知道國安局根據你們組織法是指導、協調、支援，針對支援這個部分，我知道各大情資單位都會有定期的平臺來去交流，我還記得過去我在國安會的時候參加一些國際組織，我發覺到外交部有自己的小房間，各個局處有自己的小房間，各個局處根本沒有在做資訊的統整，所以在於統合、指導、協調，這不是文字上面的意義……"],["蔡局長明彥：當然、當然。"],["陳委員冠廷：它必須要做真切上面的資訊交換，所以特別是在指導方針、情報的蒐集還有怎麼樣立案，我是希望它不是只有在比較高層的文官，到最基層的文官都要有非常完整的講習……"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["陳委員冠廷：把這樣子能夠立案，不然花費這麼大的心思，經歷過3年多，犯罪事實其實都很明顯，但是還是沒有辦法正式的去做宣判，所以這其實都是代表說我們蒐集證據的部分一定有一些指標要去遵循，這個部分還是希望局長能夠更加快速地去做反應，這個是非常重要的。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，大概有兩部分跟委員說明，一個部分是我們的情報機關跟視同情報機關，各種的專案協調機制，這部分剛剛有稍微跟委員介紹一下；另外，跟跨部會之間的情報協調，我們也有國家情報協調會報，由本人來主持，邀請各部會相關的正副首長來一起討論……"],["陳委員冠廷：對，局長，這個我知道，這些相關會報都有，所以我剛剛講說實質上面的部分，可能這就是考驗領導人的能力，能不能夠至少要留下legacy，把這樣的傳統留下來，不要說我們現在是依照文字這樣子去……"],["蔡局長明彥：有、有，有個機制的。"],["陳委員冠廷：然後同時出團，但是各自在負責各自不同的事情，那這樣就沒有情報統合的意義在，這非常重要，所以我們希望局長能夠把這個東西留下來，做一個好的legacy，能夠傳承下去。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，統合機制的建立，我們都有把它完備，謝謝委員提醒。"],["陳委員冠廷：這非常重要，不然各自在做各自的話，那我會覺得有點遺憾。"],["蔡局長明彥：這也是我們國安局的角色，謝謝委員提醒。"],["陳委員冠廷：在你們政策方針裡面有提到情報交流的合作、接軌國際社會，意思就是說我們跟國外的一些情報機構是不是有定期的合作跟交流，資訊的交換到什麼樣的程度？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為現在整個中共在區域裡面擴張的動作越來越多，也造成國際社會很關注到不只是臺海情勢，整體的印太安全情勢都非常的關切，所以在情報交流部分也開啟我們很多好的機會，來跟這些國外的夥伴針對大家共同關切的議題交換資訊跟情資，特別要來研判的重點是在於中共的戰略意圖以及它相關的動作有沒有新的發展趨勢。"],["陳委員冠廷：除了大方面的戰略之外，我們當然是碰到比較細節，比方說最近中華電信的資料外洩部分，這樣的問題其實我們辦公室也已經找到中華電信還有各個其他部門來談到，裡面還包括海軍租用的中華電信衛星、3年前跟諾魯的這些資通合作會議，或者是海巡署的巡護九號艦艇等等，這些部分都有相關的東西出去。我的意思是說如果中華電信本身沒有辦法掌握這些資訊到底問題出在哪裡的話，國安局有沒有辦法提出協調、協助？"],["蔡局長明彥：大概有兩個面向，第一個部分是就中華電信的部分，他們針對委員所提到的這個個案，已經跟目的事業主管機關交通部有做相關的通報，另外也跟數位部有做相關的通報，這是個案的部分，那調查局也已經立案在偵辦，這是第一個面向。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們知道是……"],["蔡局長明彥：第二個面向是假如說它的洩漏資訊有涉及到國安單位的話，那國安局這邊也會來協同我們的國安單位，針對他們資通訊的安全、相關的環境，來提升跟加強還有改善，這部分……"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長，我的意思是說除了技術上面知道它的問題在哪裡，在人為因素的部分之外，就是機構跟機構的情報交流，比方說國安局如果能夠得到其他情資的話，也是希望說能夠利用這種平臺，把它傳遞給相關的局處，就是說你們可能得到情報的管道更多，所以……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，而且我們現在也在協助相關國安單位來訓練他們的資安人員，未來兩、三年內應該會訓練出來大概一千多到兩千的資安人員在國安團隊裡面。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝，非常感謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請邱志偉委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-4","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","陳冠廷","邱志偉","賴士葆","張啓楷","吳宗憲","陳永康","林憶君","王定宇","黃仁","王鴻薇","洪申翰"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發\n展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131001_00012"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.08159375,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.83659375,"end":2.7478437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.278468750000002,"end":9.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.29534375,"end":9.430343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.430343750000002,"end":9.480968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.480968750000002,"end":9.750968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.750968750000002,"end":9.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.76784375,"end":10.071593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.071593750000002,"end":10.493468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.493468750000002,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.965968750000002,"end":11.505968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.792843750000003,"end":14.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.117218750000003,"end":30.372218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.827843750000003,"end":73.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.60721875,"end":38.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.77159375,"end":39.822218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.55534375,"end":93.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.99096875000001,"end":97.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.85534375,"end":110.78159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.78159375000001,"end":141.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.08471875,"end":145.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.02096875,"end":146.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.33721875,"end":164.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.88284375,"end":165.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.91659375,"end":181.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.85909375,"end":183.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.58034375000003,"end":205.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.92784375000002,"end":201.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.97346875000002,"end":248.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.71096875,"end":211.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.18721875,"end":215.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.85346875000002,"end":218.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.98784375000002,"end":249.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.59534375,"end":249.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.61221875,"end":257.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.56034375,"end":304.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.52346875,"end":319.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.03221875,"end":316.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.86721875,"end":319.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.11596875000004,"end":354.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.89534375,"end":355.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.21596875,"end":364.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.30721875,"end":393.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.21534375000005,"end":387.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.57346875,"end":390.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.45096875,"end":390.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.65721875,"end":395.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.49659375000005,"end":414.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.73409375,"end":417.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.24846875000003,"end":433.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.93784375,"end":449.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.83409375,"end":457.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.51221875000005,"end":464.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.35971875,"end":476.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.18846875,"end":517.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.78971875,"end":541.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.0034687500001,"end":528.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.8703437500001,"end":551.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.21596875,"end":544.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.77596875,"end":554.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.4253437500001,"end":573.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.44471875,"end":566.11971875},{"s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謝主席 陳委員早早 局長 那個我先針對齁"},{"start":15.288,"end":29.714,"text":"國安局統合的角色做一個質詢那國安局我把它簡單的做一個統整那大概就是反斬首、反滲透、反間諜、反借選、反恐攻那其中裡面在你們的這個政策方針裡面"},{"start":30.874,"end":51.215,"text":"我看到有屢次出現預警這兩個字預警就是說在可能發生的國家安全事件之前先提出來來警告國人或者是相關的機關那其實在最近其實不只是台灣在這個美國常常會有一些相關的重大的這個預警措施比方說美國有像這個"},{"start":52.856,"end":72.944,"text":"美國公民發出警告說有可能會有極端分子發動攻擊比方說在一些重大的基礎建設那在發生恐怖攻擊或者是有可能的電子襲擊之前那美國也可能會提出警告我想知道說國安局針對重大危及國家安全事件的時候你們的預警機制是什麼"},{"start":74.178,"end":90.343,"text":"對,依照國安局的組織法跟國家情報工作法國安局本來就負責指導、統合、協調國內總共有11個情報機關跟4同情報機關那就情報作業的角度來講對於各種可能國家安全的危害不管是來自於內部或外部"},{"start":90.703,"end":110.071,"text":"我們都會跟我們的協情單位也就是11個情報跟協同情報機關有透過各種的專案來利用專案的機制收集相關的情資那也會把相關的情資還有最新掌握的狀況跟相關部會來做分享一定來事先應處不是在事件發生之後再應處而是能夠事先預警來應處"},{"start":111.011,"end":125.707,"text":"謝謝局長我的意思是說在具體可能你們掌握的情資統整各個情報機構之後你們有足夠的相信它可能會在比如說48小時24小時發生你們有沒有辦法在全國的面前做出預警比方說國防部之前"},{"start":127.349,"end":140.147,"text":"針對這種飛行器或者是這個超過卡門線的相關的這種飛行物經過的時候它會出現預警但我們講的不是這一種我們講的是說有可能立即危害公眾安全的這種狀況你們有這樣的機制嗎?"},{"start":143.271,"end":164.25,"text":"發佈的標準呢?發佈的標準要看相關的一個樣態因為可能的安全威脅有不同的威脅來源不同的狀況都有那以我們的機制來講一定會在第一時間來掌握老實講在去年的二合一大選我們這樣的機制的運作還算非常的合作的非常的密切"},{"start":164.949,"end":181.077,"text":"我之所以這樣說的原因我還是做一個結論就是說在國防部在這個選前馬上得通報那透過這樣子的各個不同的電子裝置通報那造成的效果有人說是有正有負有一些反效果有一些正面的效果就是至少說國防部有掌握"},{"start":181.897,"end":205.22,"text":"但是我們還是要知道說如果有遇到重大 比方說之前其實幾年前高鐵有一個重大的一個國家安全的事件就是有人要引爆炸彈在這個相關的這些高鐵那後來當然是被偵破所以說防止這件事情發生我意思是說在遇到重大的緊急災變之前我們必須要有一個機制做全民的通報我想這是一個非常重要的因為"},{"start":206.141,"end":220.797,"text":"情報機關重要的是掌握情資並且做預警不然情報單純的收集情報然後把它放在檔案庫裡面沒有任何的意義它必須要跟公共安全會有直接的結合這也直接導引到我的下一個問題"},{"start":221.578,"end":248.208,"text":"我想最近有許多國會議員我們的立法委員都有接到來自不同的這個我看聽說我們是跟不同的這個機關來去請教IP位置都是來自境外那這樣子的問題當然警政單位都有在去搜尋那這個可能的這個可能性各種不同可能性我們也不能夠單純的說一定來自中國或者是來自哪裡我們不知道那我想知道說國安局有什麼樣的方式來去應處"},{"start":249.928,"end":276.007,"text":"這案子因為已經是一個多年的案子了跟委員大概報告一下從2021年的9月到昨天為止網路匿名的恐嚇案件有526件那刑事局也有成立一個專案小組來處理那針對最近所發生的這種網路的恐嚇案我們的相關的資訊顯示它是來自於境外的大陸籍的人士所發動的"},{"start":276.787,"end":304.108,"text":"那大部分都是由單一的個人來發動那我剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過那主要的恐嚇對象包括的有桃園國際機場、總統府、警政署還有各個委員的一個服務信箱那都有在收集相關的一個資訊那也會因為主要是來自於境外的入籍人士所以這也是為什麼內政部有對外說明說他們也是希望透過兩岸共同打擊犯罪的機制來進行通報來防止這樣的事情一再一再的發生"},{"start":304.948,"end":324.916,"text":"這樣子的威脅性其實對於人身安全也好當然是有一定程度的威脅但是除了這個之外他利用這樣子的公眾訊息來去把操弄不安的訊息在我們的一般的這個大眾裡面這才是一個很大的問題因為只要是不管是利用誰的這個人頭賬戶他只要把這個訊息傳出去再透過媒體傳播的話"},{"start":325.956,"end":327.436,"text":"對民眾來講是一個比較能夠確保他們自己會比較安全感"},{"start":355.521,"end":363.414,"text":"情報的意義有很多種因為我想這個局長也是學者出身所以他您不是軍人出身所以你要知道說對於國防來講"},{"start":365.316,"end":365.356,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":395.556,"end":416.593,"text":"的這個何靜華等人那經過2020年是遭警察官起訴那這個案件我看是根據新聞上面來講的話都是調查局是主責那已經有正式的起訴但是在2月29號有宣判他是說因為證據不足獲判無罪這個案子國防國安局當初有沒有掌握情資有沒有分享情資"},{"start":417.501,"end":433.029,"text":"對,相關的案件我們都有分享情資那也跟委員報告說明一下就怎麼樣讓這些中共對台灣的統戰滲透的案件它的立案率能夠比較高事實上最高檢這邊也做了非常多的努力那邀集的包括我們的國安單位還有"},{"start":434.07,"end":436.732,"text":"這部分大概是我們情報機關在前置作業階段可以努力的重點方向。"},{"start":457.585,"end":475.97,"text":"所以簡而言之你把法律上面所不足的部分有跟其他的這些機構要件都有把他們分享對不對這個跟委員報告一下最高檢他們甚至還有一個相關的案例說明以及立案要件的相關的指標目的就是希望在偵辦這些案件我們的法規的要件可以更完備"},{"start":477.233,"end":500.108,"text":"我特別講到這個法律的部分是因為我們知道說有不同的包含調查局、國安局其實在各個不同的縣市都有住處都有住人員在此地在各地那這個部分就是說在收集情報的方面或者是說到時候要政治立案的話那情報的這個方針就很重要那還有情報的互相也非常重要我們當然知道說國安局他的這個根據你們組織法是指導協調支援"},{"start":503.169,"end":523.698,"text":"針對資源這個部分我知道都會有各大情治單位都會有定期的這個平台來去交流但我還記得說過去我參加我在國安會的時候參加一些國際組織我發現到外交部有自己的小房間各個局處有自己的小房間各個局處根本沒有在做資訊的統整所以在於統合指導協調這不是"},{"start":525.979,"end":545.152,"text":"文字上面的意義那他必須要做真切上面的資訊的交換所以特別是在這個指導方針情報的收集還有怎麼樣立案這個我是希望說他不是只有在比較高層的文官到最基層的文官都要有非常完整的講習"},{"start":546.593,"end":546.793,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":562.819,"end":563.88,"text":"請國防部副部長蔡明彥報告"},{"start":591.316,"end":612.999,"text":"這個局長我們知道這些相關的匯報都有所以我剛剛講說實質上面的部分可能這就是考驗領導人的能力能不能夠至少要留下legacy把這樣的傳統留下來不要說說我們現在是依照文字這樣子去然後同時出團但是各自在負責各自不同的事情那這樣就沒有情報統合的意義在這非常重要所以我們希望局長能夠"},{"start":614.401,"end":619.564,"text":"在你的政策方針裡面有提到這個情報交流的合作接軌國際社會那意思就是說我們跟國外的一些情報機構是不是有定期的一些合作跟交流資訊的交換到什麼樣的程度"},{"start":639.899,"end":666.021,"text":"因為現在因為整個中共在區域裡面的擴張的動作越來越多那也造成國際社會很關注到不只是台海情勢整體的印太安全情勢都非常的關切那所以在情報交流部分也開啟我們很多好的機會來跟這些國外的夥伴針對大家共同關切的議題來交換資訊跟情資特別要來研判的重點是在於中共的戰略意圖以及他相關的動作有沒有新的發展趨勢"},{"start":667.282,"end":690.703,"text":"除了大方面的戰略之外我們當然是碰到比較細節比方說最近中華電信的資料外洩這個部分這樣的問題其實我們也辦公室已經找到各個中華電信還有各個其他部門來談到那裡面還包括說海軍的租用的中華電信衛星三年前跟諾魯的這些資通的合作會議或者是海軍署的護九號艦艇等等"},{"start":692.905,"end":710.55,"text":"這部分都有相關的東西出去我的意思是說這些資訊如果中華電信本身沒有辦法掌握到底問題出在哪裡的話國安局有沒有辦法提出協調協助好大概兩個面向第一個部分是就中華電信的部分他們針對委員所提到的這個個案已經跟目的世界主管機關交通部"},{"start":713.278,"end":734.042,"text":"對交通部有做相關的通報另外也跟數位部有做相關的通報這是個案的部分那調查局也已經立案在偵辦這是第一個面向對第二個面向是假如說他的洩漏資訊有涉及到國安單位的話那國安局這邊也會來協同我們的國安單位針對他們的資通訊的安全相關的環境來提升跟加強還有改善"},{"start":734.822,"end":757.968,"text":"謝謝局長我的意思是說除了技術上面知道說他的問題在哪裡在以人因的部分以人為因素的部分還有透過人跟人因之外就是機構跟機構的情報交流比方說國安局如果能夠得到其他情資的話也是需要說能夠利用這種平台把它傳遞給相關的局處就是說你們可能得到的情報的管道更多"},{"start":758.308,"end":758.928,"text":"好,謝謝,非常感謝。"}]}},{"id":"149660","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149660","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300b65bbda42e21eea5ee83bb1dd0927c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6b19c3c3926b89c555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:44:42 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10:54:28","影片長度":"00:09:46","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":586,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:54:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:44:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":552,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時44分）主席好，我想請一下李主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：主委好。我想公平會對整個臺灣、整個市場當中的公平性，其實有很大的關係。因為我看公平會整個主要的架構，我們今天大概有四個案例要提出來，第一個，是有關於整個電信業合併案，就是2023年7月20號通過遠傳併亞太，10月11號通過了台灣大併台灣之星，這兩個合併案，大概都有一些附加的條件才讓他們通過。我想請教一下到今年為止，他們有提出具體的一個實施成果，有提出他們的一個報告出來嗎？主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：在1年內提出，那是去年的，分別是7月和10月，時間還沒到。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，所以還沒提出嘛？都還沒提出嘛？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我想請教一下，因為消費者回饋的時候就很清楚地直接講，本辦就曾經接到說他們原本是台灣之星的用戶，後來被台哥大併了之後，就經常出現當機的情況，有時候1天當好幾次。對於這樣的狀態，是不是有違公平會當時所設立的一個合併條件？要如何去維護消費者的一個權益？"],["李主任委員鎂：謝謝委員的垂詢，當時我們的條件是從資費方面，第一個，台灣之星過去的這些合約，都要繼續幫它承受……"],["鄭委員正鈐：除了資費，品質肯定是重要的條件之一啦！"],["李主任委員鎂：一個是資費，一個是提升服務品質，委員提到這個問題，其實NCC已經有一個觀測小組。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你們跟NCC有聯絡？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們有一起合作、觀察這件事。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，這個部分，後續再把你們跟NCC討論溝通的一個結果給本席。然後我想問一下，如果說電信業者他們違反了當時合併條件的時候，我們之後有沒有什麼救濟的可能性？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果沒有履行這個負擔的話，在公平會是有相當的處罰。"],["鄭委員正鈐：怎麼樣子的處罰？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們有一個是罰鍰或者是限期改正等等，會看這個違反的情形。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對於這樣子的合併案，罰鍰跟限期改正基本上已經很難去要求，我講的狀態是說，他們基本上已經違反了條件，就是像服務品質這個問題的時候，他們如果沒有直接去落實，你要他們限期改正，我覺得也是有困難的。不過，因為這個東西還不到1年，我想說你們把跟NCC溝通的結果，給本席辦公室瞭解一下。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，我們過去也有處罰的案例，譬如說我們今年就處罰有線電視系統違反先前的這個結合負擔，所以會看案情來處理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好，我再往下，那個部分再給本席辦公室說明。就慶云案這個部分，我知道剛剛主委有回應，另外的委員也有提到慶云案這個問題，因為我覺得慶云案比較特別的點是，因為當時在2017年的時候，公平會直接呼籲慶云案的傳銷商跟公司解約。後來在2023年的時候，其實發現他們負責人的案子，變成是公平會這邊說他們是無罪定讞的一個情況，對於這樣的狀態，公平會這邊要怎麼去因應，後面有沒有什麼救濟的可能性？"],["李主任委員鎂：這是有一個訴訟情形，我們是不是請處長說明。"],["沈處長麗玉：跟委員報告，慶云這家公司，我們移送給苗栗地檢署去偵辦之後，它是有不斷地上訴，所以中間確實如剛剛委員所提到，它是有勝訴、有敗訴，而最後的一個結果，法院是沒有判這個負責人有罪。這家公司呢……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我這邊直接問一個點，因為在2017年的時候，公平會就呼籲大家解約，因為當時我們在二審贏的狀態時呼籲解約。問題是打到2023年的時候，法院無罪判決當中，直接表示他們並非變質多層次傳銷，以這樣的狀態來講，公平會之前這樣的一個行政裁決，會不會有一些缺失的部分？你們要怎麼去因應後續的部分？"],["沈處長麗玉：這個在我們當時的判斷，確實那時候法院的見解跟本會的見解可能有所出入，法院那邊是認為說它不是變質，但是我們當時移送的時候，我們認為它是一個變質的傳銷，其實法院的判決見解也有兩度是支持我們，有相同的見解……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，兩度是過程嘛！最後就不是喔！"],["沈處長麗玉：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：在這個案子當中，我發現公平會行政走得前面，那法院判決之後打臉了公平會這邊的決議。可是我想講另外一個案子，就是在永慶跟信義房屋的案子當中，事實上信義房屋比較早就提出了這個案子，可是公平會當時說要先司法後行政，跟慶云這個案子剛好是相反的情況。公平會在處理不同個案時有沒有一些標準？比方說針對關鍵字SEO的平臺演算法這樣的案子時，公平會要求先司法後行政，等到司法判決之後，公平會才來做一些後續的行政裁處，跟之前慶云案是完全反過來的一個情況。關於這個部分，公平會怎麼針對不同的個案去做不同的判斷，到底是要先司法還是要先行政？"],["李主任委員鎂：關於變質多層次傳銷，在多層次傳銷管理法第十八條直接就是刑事責任。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是。"],["李主任委員鎂：營業誹謗在第二十四條裡面有規範，所以我們還是會看一下情況。對於永慶跟信義之間的情況，就我的瞭解是有一些訴訟，我們會先判斷這個案子如果很明顯是一個刑事案件，我們會移送司法，該當我們自己行政處理的，我們也會處理。我們上禮拜也處理了一個永慶房屋不實廣告的案例，所以還是要看個案的證據。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，你剛剛特別提到，在慶云這個案件當中是先行政後司法，因為你說是跟多層次傳銷相關的法律有關，可是最後針對他們的負責人，法院直接判定他們並非變質的多層次傳銷。這個部分之後請再到本辦公室來做說明，對於他們這些會員的相關權益，後續是不是可能會有救濟的方式，請一併跟本席說明。","最後，我要問一個狀態，最近大家很關心的是衛福部針對掛號費的部分，主委有沒有看過這個公文？看過喔，這個公文當中很清楚、直接表示，之後我們掛號費的限制取消了，對不對？如果到時候各地方的診所有任何問題，請各地方的衛生局瞭解之後再把問題反映給公平會，是這樣子的處理方式嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，如果他們反映有一些異狀，我們會進行處理，此外公平會也會主動瞭解，如果有異常的情況，我們也會立案。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我想問一下，對於掛號費參考基準取消這個部分，公平會支不支持？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想衛福部任何一個政策都應該經過他們審慎評估，我們都尊重。"],["鄭委員正鈐：如果現在有很多診所開始提高掛號費，同一時間提高，金額不一樣，有人提高到200、300或者是250，這樣算不算是聯合行為？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要去查他們橫向之間有沒有勾結、共同講價，如果是個別定個別的，即便是外觀一致，那不當然是違反公平法，還是要看有沒有合意。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，因為在這個案子當中，我們發現衛福部把責任推到了地方衛生局，之後衛生局如果有問題再跟公平會這邊反映，基本上我覺得衛福部沒有扮演好一個很好的角色，所以本席也希望公平會能夠跟衛福部薛瑞元部長再做溝通，對於這樣子的動作是不是適合，請主委站在公平會的角度來跟衛福部進行溝通，讓民眾不要擔心掛號費大幅地提高，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個行為我們一定會查處，而且嚴處。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。","接下來我們請羅明才、羅明才，羅明才委員不在。","王美惠、王美惠，王美惠委員不在。","陳冠廷、陳冠廷，陳冠廷委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","陳俊宇、陳俊宇，陳俊宇委員不在。","林俊憲、林俊憲，林俊憲委員不在。","徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩，徐欣瑩委員不在。","高金素梅、高金素梅，高金素梅委員不在。","我們請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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罰緩跟限期改正已經基本上已經很難去要求我講的狀態是說他們基本上已經違反了條件尤其像服務品質這個問題的時候那他們如果沒有直接去落實的時候你要他們限期改正我覺得也是有困難的不過因為這個東西在一年還沒有到我想說你們"},{"start":177.192,"end":192.182,"text":"與NCC溝通的結果給本席辦公室了解一下我們過去也有處罰的案例比如說我們今年就處罰那個有線電視系統違反先前的這個結合所以看案前來處理那這個部分我再往下一下那個部分"},{"start":192.702,"end":214.696,"text":"在給本席辦公室來做說明就氣雲案這個部分我知道剛剛主委有回應另外委員有提到氣雲案這個問題因為我覺得氣雲案這個部分我覺得它比較特別的點是因為當時在2017年的時候公平月直接呼籲氣雲案的傳銷商跟公司解約那麼在2023年的時候其實後來就發現了對於他們負責人的案子的時候其實是"},{"start":223.24,"end":224.622,"text":"那是有一個訴訟情形,我們請處長說明"},{"start":242.404,"end":256.541,"text":"是跟這個委員報告慶允這家公司呢那個我們移送給這個苗栗地檢署去偵辦之後呢他是有不斷的這個上訴所以中間確實如剛剛委員所提到他是有有勝訴有敗訴那最後的一個結果"},{"start":259.043,"end":284.824,"text":"是法院是沒有判這個負責人他們有罪我這邊直接問一個點在2017年的時候公平就呼籲大家解約嘛因為當時整個我們二省的時候是贏的狀態的時候呼籲解約可是問題是打到2023年的時候法院無罪判定當中直接表示說那個他們並非那個變質多層次傳銷直接表示他們並非多層次傳銷那以這樣的狀態來講的時候我們公平會"},{"start":288.607,"end":310.377,"text":"之前的這樣的一個行政的裁決會不會有一些缺失的部分我們要怎麼去因應後續的部分這個在我們當時的一個判斷其實我確實那時候法院的一個見解跟本會的一個見解可能有所出入那這個法院那邊是認為說它不是變質但是我們當時移送的時候我們是認為它是一個變質的一個傳銷"},{"start":314.699,"end":343.694,"text":"那其實法院的這個判決的見解也有兩度都是支持我們的相同的一個見解兩度是過程嗎?最後就是不是所以在這個案子當中的時候我發現我們公民會行政走的前面那法院判決之後打臉了我們公民會這邊的決議可是我想去講另外一個案子就是在整個那個永慶跟信義房屋的案子當中的時候就是永慶事實上在"},{"start":345.191,"end":370.723,"text":"信義防護比較早就提出了這個案子可是我們公平會當時說要先司法後行政跟棄民這案子剛好是相反的一個情況那我們公平會在處理這不同個案當中的時候有沒有一些標準比方說針對那個關鍵字SEO的部分平台演算法這樣的一個這個案子當中的時候呢那我們公平會這邊是要求先司法後行政"},{"start":371.623,"end":390.589,"text":"所以等到司法判決之後我們公平會才要來做後續的一些行政的一個裁處那跟之前清雲案是完全反過來的一個情況所以說針對這個部分那我們公平會怎麼去針對不同的個案去做不同的判斷到底是要先司法還是要先行政"},{"start":392.142,"end":405.435,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":405.987,"end":406.027,"text":"﹚鄭先生﹚"},{"start":427.15,"end":448.209,"text":"好,那你剛剛特別提到就是在慶雲這個案件當中的時候是先行政後司法你說因為是跟多層次傳銷的相關的法律有關可是因為最後針對他們負責的部分法院是直接判定他們並非變質的多層次傳銷這個部分請之後到本辦公室來做一個說明"},{"start":449.15,"end":450.591,"text":"最近大家很關心的其實是衛福部這邊針對掛號費的部分就是諸位有沒有看過這個公文?"},{"start":471.502,"end":493.087,"text":"這個公文當中他很清楚的直接表示我們掛後費之後限制把它取消了對不對然後如果到時候各地方的診所有任何問題請各地方的衛生局再去了解之後再把問題反映給我們公平會是這樣子處理方式嗎?"},{"start":493.507,"end":493.767,"text":"公平會支持?"},{"start":509.588,"end":510.609,"text":"我們要去查他橫向事件有沒有勾結"},{"start":530.302,"end":532.363,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":551.647,"end":579.67,"text":"基本上我覺得衛福部沒有扮演好一個很好的一個角色所以本席也希望說公平會這邊能夠跟衛福部跟學聯部長這邊再做一個溝通對於這樣子的一個動作是不是適合那請那個主委這邊站在公平的角度來跟衛福部這邊進行一個溝通讓民眾不要擔心整個那個那個掛號費大幅的提高好不好因為我們一定查處而且嚴處"},{"start":580.538,"end":585.299,"text":"謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"149659","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149659","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43002854a1229783e3c81cfe294bc3fbc1e0f8ba9b0039caa7a6e3ec96120a5fbaaf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:44:20 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而有請林次長鄭署長"},{"start":9.346,"end":38.039,"text":"辛苦了我想今天早上很多委員垂詢了很多的我們運科中心的狀況那去年9月正式揭牌我想這是台灣體育很重要的里程碑那我非常期待因為運科中心的成立有助於我們再來的很多的賽事的成績好那當然巴黎奧運是首當其衝那可是不過更加重要的是我們國家如何落實"},{"start":39.76,"end":62.935,"text":"對選手日常訓練還有生活的照顧與協力那運科中心剛開始成立運作所以很多的事情我知道不可能一步到位包括你的人員很多的其他剛剛很多委員質疑的地方這我們都可以理解可是我比較關心的是說像是我們怎麼樣"},{"start":63.996,"end":65.938,"text":"今天就是要探究我們運科中心的人才培育"},{"start":89.219,"end":101.212,"text":"根據運科中心今年度預算中的年度工作目標裡面有提到說推動與國內外大專院校合作培育運科人才及合併教師預計這個2025要正式實施那我想請教說運科中心規劃"},{"start":108.32,"end":108.38,"text":"主席"},{"start":129.496,"end":154.474,"text":"現在在國訓中心從事運科工作的工作人員跟我反映所以有些他們覺得有些人員的專業程度可能相對不足怎麼說因為很多專業人才不一定會到國訓中心去他們可能會選擇賺更多錢的地方或者會到國外去追求接觸一些世界超級頂級運動員這樣的機會"},{"start":158.356,"end":180.889,"text":"這個基層的議員是反映說他們如果這個人才的這個基礎的學科的知識不足投入實務的時間就算想要去判讀或者解析所謂的運動員的檢查實驗的這種相關數據也可能沒有本錢去進一步去思辨跟融會貫通所以本席認為說我們在大學端"},{"start":181.869,"end":182.069,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":202.372,"end":223.385,"text":"那國高中升端就是說我們除了一般的考試科目外體育課也不只是打打球跑跑步我覺得老師應該要將運動科學的知識跟這個學科融合那生化運動有益身體的觀念也讓培養一些對這個有興趣的可以進到大學端去"},{"start":225.345,"end":245.85,"text":"我聽說我國的運科人員及國外的學者及專業教練的交流機會比較少通常在國際的研討會才有機會交流我當然是認為說我們一定要有機會多讓國外的學者來到台灣來互相交流或者利用獎學金來讓"},{"start":247.97,"end":269.935,"text":"我們更多國內的運科人才到我們國外來進修或者吸引外國的人員來到我們台灣所以請問署長你自己也是這個運動科學專家出身那我想一開始我提到這個人才培育這一塊你看到有哪些不足的地方或者我們有什麼樣更精進的作為"},{"start":270.646,"end":292.109,"text":"報告委員其實你剛已經講到很多的重點所以在我去年上任之後我在介入整個國家運科中心的籌備的時候當時的同仁只有把運科中心定位在研發但當時我強烈的要求要包括規劃這件事情因為運科人才他們才能真正的來協助整個選手客製化的一個服務"},{"start":292.689,"end":315.156,"text":"人才培育的部分我想運科中心現在當然是初期比較務實的做法先跟各大專業校院的這些教授來合併來合作因為所有的人才國內人才大部分還是在大學裡面那要把他們搶出來其實不太可能那這部分我們先這樣做但我們現在執行長也其實在跟許多的不管工業院的一個網絡人才或者是我們跟國外的"},{"start":315.536,"end":315.596,"text":"﹚林宜瑾"},{"start":337.48,"end":338.041,"text":"五十三位"},{"start":351.499,"end":351.719,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":373.868,"end":396.293,"text":"完全認同也支持委員的講法我們現階段將會在今年暑假開始我們會辦理博士班的類似獎學金的概念直接請大學端的博士在課題上面如果跟我們接近的我們透過獎學金的方式吸引這些博士生的人才進到我們中心來對於第一線的需求做深入的瞭解進而可能成為我們未來的聘用人員"},{"start":397.233,"end":419.892,"text":"所以現在就要開始來正在擬定這個計畫我們將在5月份公告我們希望在下個學年也就是8月1號開始進行這個博士班人才的培育計畫OK 好 謝謝那另外想要探討的是說在上週的總質詢本是有向行政院長跟教育部長再次提到設置運動相關部會的議題"},{"start":422.353,"end":442.647,"text":"這個議題其實我倡議了好一段時間而且其實在1988年的時候行政院就有在評估成立運動相關部會的討論從那一年到現在其實已經36年了我想運動除了教育和培養人才的層面外其實還有很龐雜的專業我們為什麼要推動運動產業發展條例我們就可以看到運動產業的範疇太多"},{"start":450.552,"end":473.785,"text":"大體上有13個面向包括運動博弈運動旅遊電子競技運動經濟管理顧問等等這真的是非常的廣泛所以在總質詢的時候潘部長回應本席他說這幾年的台灣的體育的量能跟運動的產業發展確實有很大的擴充所以體育部在辦理這些體育的相關教育部在辦理這些體育的相關事務的時候其實"},{"start":476.887,"end":477.387,"text":"﹚林宜瑾"},{"start":501.121,"end":512.224,"text":"其實我們過去教育部體育署一直受限在我們的功能主要講求在人才培育但其實賴總統在今年的體育政策他已經點出了運動產業發展多元化這個非常重要的議題那也就是說我們在運動產業條例裡面其實有談到不管是專責法人或者是"},{"start":529.768,"end":530.168,"text":"市長、署長請回"}]}},{"id":"149658","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149658","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430029da3bb5475f8e9c43c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a6097bac15eae8056a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"10:42:07 - 10:49:56","影片長度":"00:07:49","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-5"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":469,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:49:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:42:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":561,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（10時42分）好，謝謝主席及與會同仁。請我們中選會主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員你好。"],["吳委員琪銘：主委你好。主委，有關不在籍投票，今天早上大家都在討論，我記得是在第九屆，我們那時候在107年提出不在籍投票，但是已經歷經了6年，這6年我們知道因為這是一個很大的工程，我們要考慮到境外的問題，所以我們最大的問題應該是境外，但是其實我們修法就是要未來更適合臺灣這個地方來使用，中選會這幾年真的也做得非常……在世界上大家也公認臺灣的選舉是一個公開透明的制度，所以在這段期間，我也很清楚，但是我早上認為主委提到，有關全國性公民投票電子連署系統，你說4月10號，其實外面的人也都會有疑慮，什麼叫電子連署系統上路？你說應該要加速測試，讓民眾來知道，不然我看早上，我還是第一次聽到4月1號，我還是訝異4月1號到底是？補選也不是4月1號……"],["李主任委員進勇：4月10號。"],["吳委員琪銘：所以要講清楚啊！所以對外記者會一定要讓全民更加瞭解。"],["李主任委員進勇：好，委員，我是不是能補充一句話？"],["吳委員琪銘：好。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝。雖然大家對臺灣的選舉制度有很多指教，但是在國際間，尤其是英國的經濟學人週刊社2021年和2023年所做的167個國家地區的民主調查評比，我們臺灣在全世界就選舉過程這個指標來講，2021年我們在全世界是排名第八，2023年是排名第十，但是在亞洲，我們是排名第一，而且這個分數都是滿分10分，所以臺灣的民主選舉在世界上大家相當肯定，謝謝你讓我補充。"],["吳委員琪銘：這一點，你說英國的經濟學人所公布的數據，真的有參考價值，那你要讓民眾瞭解，其實我們臺灣過去整個選舉制度定下來，真的非常完善，但是大家都在討論不在籍投票，我們一定要說，既然要推動，我們還是要很謹慎的把它規劃好，但是我看現在的趨勢，我看今天早上我們所有委員並不是說反對，大家也都很支持，包含107年，我們也是支持我們不在籍投票的公投，所以在這個部分，我們還是要特別注意。還有早上王美惠委員也有提出身心障礙的部分，這是很好解決啊！我們的各投票所如果有不適合的，我們還是可以來做更換，我們就是要便於我們的身心障礙者來投票，他們也有公民投票權，所以我們也要給他保障，這一點是我們要去加強的。"],["李主任委員進勇：好，我們會再加強。"],["吳委員琪銘：像這種要解決是很好解決啦！所以既然大家有提出來，我們中選會的立場都是一個很公正的單位，我們就是要便於民眾來投票，我們才可以提升我們的投票率。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們會不斷的精進，謝謝委員的指教。"],["吳委員琪銘：再來，在這次的選舉當中，我們投入了24萬名工作人員，其實工作人員都很辛苦，對於工作人員，我們一定要更加予以保障，因為畢竟他們也是要去投票，所以有很多人跟我說，當他們要去投票的時候，可能在工作上、時間上，有很多人會失去他投票的權利，在這個部分，我們也認為未來對於我們的選務人員，我們一定要讓他們更加有彈性，讓他們的權利也不要喪失。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們現在的制度就是投開票所的工作人員可以移轉投票，但是這個移轉投票限於同一個縣市區域，同一個選區之內才可以，但是新的草案都已經開放了，也就是跨縣市的也可以移轉投票。"],["吳委員琪銘：這就是我們要確保他們的權益。"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["吳委員琪銘：在這個部分，還有一點，在我們中選會的業務當中，過去網路的抹黑、造假、境外的造假，我們所偵查的速度是怎樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：這部分真的造成選務上很大的困擾，中選會的立場就是，我們及時的掌握這個錯假訊息的來源，同時立即的回應，我們一定要馬上來澄清，除了澄清之外，還要看它造成影響的強弱，我們採取必要的反制措施，尤其是我們跟五大平臺業者都有建立一個通報的管道，及時的通報，讓他們來進行處理，最嚴重的就是下架，這個我們都有在做。"],["吳委員琪銘：好。主委，我請問你，根據本席這邊的資料，在網路的假訊息就有超過七百多則，真正有移送檢調起訴的有幾個案件？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們大概有二十幾個案、30個案是移送給檢調，移送給地檢署以及刑事警察局來做處理，有29個案子。"],["吳委員琪銘：有起訴幾個案子？"],["李主任委員進勇：目前還在偵查中。"],["吳委員琪銘：還在偵查中？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：其實我們的速度真的也有夠慢，一個選舉，相信美惠也感同身受，因為假訊息特別多，關於這一點，因為我們是一個超然的中選會，我們還是要秉持很公正的態度，有人檢舉我們就要趕快蒐集、趕快移送。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們關於選務錯假訊息的處理以及它的成果，其實國際的媒體對我們相當的肯定，包括美聯社都做很大、很顯著的報導。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為我們都還有境外的問題，所以這是很麻煩的……"],["李主任委員進勇：是，大家的眼睛都在注意我們，都在關心我們。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝。"],["主席：感謝吳琪銘召委，我們休息5分鐘，5分鐘後我們就處理臨時提案。拜託承辦單位對於有提案的人，趕快去溝通一下，謝謝。","休息（10時50分）","繼續開會（11時）"],["主席（吳委員琪銘）：繼續開會。現在處理臨時提案，共2案，請宣讀。","一、","有鑑於臺北市選舉委員會，對腦性麻痺障礙者賴宗育參選立委時的延長政見發表時間申請，2020年時准許延長5分鐘，2024年卻以有科技設備輔助為由，不予准許；又身心障礙團體多次公開呼籲，要求政府重視障礙者「資訊近用」的權利。再者，「身心障礙者權利公約施行法」第10條第1項，明定政府應於5年內（即108年12月），徵詢身心障礙團體意見，並修正不符合公約之法規。綜上，中央選舉委員會顯然有義務修正「公職人員選舉公辦政見發表會實施辦法」，以及其他相關法規中有關政見發表之規定，爰請中央選舉委員會研處，徵詢身心障礙團體之意見，區分不同障礙別，將障礙者之參選人政見發表時，有權利申請的各種協助措施，修正並明確納入法規，並於一個月內將研處書面報告送至立法院內政委員會。","提案人：徐欣瑩　　許宇甄　　黃建賓　　牛煦庭","二、","現行選政選務分立，內政部係掌理選政，負責修法與政策，而中央選舉委員會則掌理選務，負責執行選務之現況。為建立公正獨立客觀之選舉制度，爰請中央選舉委員會就選政選務分立及合一的態度，於一個月內，將研處情形之書面報告，送立法院內政委員會。","提案人：徐欣瑩　　許宇甄　　黃建賓　　牛煦庭"],["主席：我們現在先處理第一案，第一案將「一個月」改為「二個月」，大家有沒有意見？（無）沒有，照案通過。","現在處理第二案，第二案也是徐委員所提出的，大家有沒有意見？（無）沒有，照案通過。","現在繼續進行詢答，下一位請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-5","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","黃建賓","王美惠","徐欣瑩","黃捷","高金素梅","丁學忠","鄭天財Sra 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主委其實我們不在籍投票今天早上大家都在討論不在籍投票是我記得是在第9屆我們那時候107年就是來提出不在籍投票但是已經歷經了6年 6年我們知道因為這是一個很多的工廠我們要考慮到我們境外的問題"},{"start":38.385,"end":38.705,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":59.82,"end":60.001,"text":"主席"},{"start":70.549,"end":98.574,"text":"全國性公民投票電子連署這個系統你說4月10號其實外面的人都會有疑慮什麼叫那個電子連署的系統上路4月10號你說應該要加速我們是在測試讓整個民眾來知道不然我看早上我還第一次聽到4月1號我還是訝異4月1號是到底是"},{"start":99.514,"end":102.035,"text":"雖然大家對台灣的選舉制度有很多指教但是在國際中間尤其是英國的經濟學人的做看社"},{"start":127.928,"end":142.282,"text":"2021��2021年跟2023年所做的167個國家地區的民主調查評比（台灣在全世界就選舉過程這個指標來講（我們在全世界是百名台北2021年（"},{"start":148.388,"end":150.709,"text":"臺灣的民主選舉是在世界上大家最多給我們困難謝謝你給我補充"},{"start":165.574,"end":191.359,"text":"這一點 英國的經濟學人所公布的事跡 因為那些真的有參考的價值要給民眾了解 其實台灣過去的選舉 整個制度定下來真的非常完善 但是大家都討論說不在一起投票 我們也一定要說 議員要推動 我們還是要很謹慎把它規劃好"},{"start":193.479,"end":193.499,"text":"吳琪銘議員"},{"start":215.749,"end":231.719,"text":"身心障礙這個地方這是很好解決我們的各投票所我們還是不適合的我們還是來可以來做更換我們就是要便利說我們的身心障礙者他們也有公民投票權這我們也要給他保障"},{"start":237.543,"end":237.703,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":259.571,"end":280.658,"text":"在這次選舉我們所倒立的有24萬我們的工作人員其實工作人員都很辛苦但是工作人員我們也是一定要對應一定要警覺保障因為他畢竟他也是要去投票所以有很多人告訴我盡量分配投票的時候有人在工作上、時間上有很多人會釋放他的投票的權力"},{"start":287.02,"end":287.56,"text":"現在的制度就是 投票所的廣州人員"},{"start":304.026,"end":307.39,"text":"新的草案都已經開放了也就是跨縣市的也可以移轉投票"},{"start":319.445,"end":324.809,"text":"這就是我們比較不講他們的權益,在這個部分我們也是中選會,還有一點就是說在我們中選會的業務,過去我們說他們在網路的造假、境外的造假,我們所偵查的速度是怎樣"},{"start":342.915,"end":345.656,"text":"中選會的立場就是說我們及時的掌握這個錯假訊息的來源那同時立即的回應我們一定要馬上有來聽清"},{"start":359.443,"end":359.463,"text":"吳琪銘議員"},{"start":380.983,"end":406.079,"text":"那主委我請問你本席這邊的資料在網路的信息就超過700多則那陣陣有在檢調移送檢調起訴的有幾個案件我們有大概20幾個案30個案是移送給檢調移送給這個地檢署以及這個刑事警察局來做處理"},{"start":407.683,"end":407.703,"text":"吳琪銘議員"},{"start":411.096,"end":439.304,"text":"保證還在偵查中還在偵查中其實我們的真的速度也有過慢啦因為不然你一個選舉相信每會也都有伸縮啦因為假訊息就特別多那這一點因為我們是一個超然的中選會我們還是要秉持的很公正你有檢舉我們就是要把他趕快收集趕快移送"},{"start":440.311,"end":459.795,"text":"我們關於選務錯假訊息的處理以及它的成果其實國際的媒體對我們也相當的肯定包括美聯社都做很大很顯著的一個報導因為我們都還有境外的問題所以這是很麻煩的大家都在幫我們注意幫我們關心好 謝謝 謝謝主委謝謝我們感謝吳琪銘召委跟我們約五分鐘五分鐘後我們就臨時"}]}},{"id":"149657","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149657","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430027afa82c1c90606faf4279b9ad9aebfdf8ba9b0039caa7a6f3c13d40c4121fb85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:34:53 - 10:44:27","影片長度":"00:09:34","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-4"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":574,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:44:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:34:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":354,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時34分）謝謝主席，請蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：局長好。本席要跟你討論一下TikTok的資安問題及國安問題，先給局長看3月10日有兩則關於TikTok的新聞，第一則是美國總統拜登說如果眾議院通過TikTok的禁案，通過了他就簽；第二個是反撤資案，TikTok發動用戶電話抗議美國的眾議員，請問局長知不知道這兩則新聞？"],["蔡局長明彥：知道，我們也都很重視TikTok所引發的資安問題。"],["李委員坤城：好，等一下會請教局長。現在各個國家嚴管TikTok的理由，不論是從資安或是從國安都有，從美國來看，他們認為TikTok的管理階層是聽命於中國政府，TikTok可能被用來影響美國人，或是將美國的個資交給中國政府，而且會對於兒童心理健康造成損害，甚至也對記者進行監視，這是美國。包含英國、澳洲、印度、尼泊爾等等都有理由。在臺灣，數發部在2022年12月5日有發函禁止公部門使用抖音，臺灣是以國家資安的理由禁止公部門設備下載使用，但禁令是否有擴及一般民眾，目前還沒有法源依據，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有。"],["李委員坤城：只有公部門禁止使用，但是美國已經從國安層級來管制TikTok，我剛才有提到3月7日美國眾議院能源暨商業委員會一致通過，50比0，保護美國人免受外國對手控制之應用程式的侵害法案，若中國字節跳動公司未在6個月內撤資，將面臨美國禁令。美國眾議院議長也說這是一項重要、跨黨派的措施，來對抗正積極削弱我國經濟和安全，我們的最大地緣政治敵人中國，美國眾議院議長講得很清楚。所以要請教局長，怎麼看美國眾議院目前通過這一項對TikTok的禁令，對於臺灣未來的管制有沒有任何啟示？"],["蔡局長明彥：對於TikTok的資安問題，我們長期都有在關注，正如委員所提到的，國際社會特別是美國和歐洲國家，還有南亞的印度，尤其南亞的印度有通過特別的立法來禁止TikTok的全面使用。相關的關注重點，我們都會做相關的研析，大概有幾個部分，一個部分是TikTok的股權結構，因為有中資在裡面，包括中國央視在裡面都有股權，另外有一些友中的外資也在裡面，加上中國相關的國安法制可能會要求TikTok來分享相關的情資，這是股權結構可能產生的疑慮。第二部分是在資安的問題，純粹從資安技術的角度來看，TikTok確實有可能讓使用者的個資或相關使用TikTok app的過程當中，個人的偏好資訊會被收集。在這個部分的評估，對於國際幾個國家及我們數位部的評估，我們都認為看法是一樣的，這也是為什麼數位部在2022年12月會宣布TikTok是一個影響國家資通訊安全的設備，政府應該要予以禁用，對於這樣的動作我們予以支持。"],["李委員坤城：美國眾議院是用資安及國安的層面來考慮，但是我認為目前我們大概都是用資安的方式來禁止TikTok，而且只有在公部門。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["李委員坤城：但是如果美國眾議院的這個法案通過了，拜登總統也簽了，他是連下載app都沒辦法、都完全禁止，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。這個部分有幾個層面要討論，第一個是你的禁用是怎麼樣的禁用，第一種有可能是禁止下載app的動作，我記得這在上一屆立院林靜儀委員也提出這樣的臨時提案，也就是有沒有可能在下載過程當中有一些警示的告警作用，讓國人在下載過程中可以知道其資安風險，這是在下載的部分。第二個部分是涉及到有沒有可能是禁止使用的部分，這個部分我們會建議最好是相關的法規要完備，才不會引起社會太大的爭議。"],["李委員坤城：就美國來說，如果這個法案通過其實是禁止使用了，如果字節跳動公司沒有從TikTok撤資的話，他是禁止使用app喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：對！所以假如他要……"],["李委員坤城：所以它其實是做到非常根本的處理方式喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，它會變成除了印度以外的一個新案例。"],["李委員坤城：臺灣呢？因為連美國議長都認為中國是他們最大的地緣政治敵人，更不用講中國對於臺灣，不論是認知作戰或是目前的文攻武嚇，如果美國決定這樣子做的話，即字節跳動沒有從TikTok撤資，打算禁掉這個app，那臺灣怎麼做？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想也不單單是美國怎麼做，我們就要跟著怎麼做，它是一個案例。"],["李委員坤城：當然！我的意思是，當美國都認為中國是他們地緣政治的敵人，更何況臺灣離中國這麼近，歷屆的選舉都有這個認知作戰、假訊息透過TikTok，甚至連在選後都還有在TikTok流傳說什麼有做票的情況，對於臺灣的影響是非常大的啊！所以從美國的例子來看，臺灣要怎麼做？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們認為這部分還是要有一些社會的討論，包括在立法院這邊……"],["李委員坤城：現在從國安局的角度來看呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：以國安局的角度來講，我們當然會去提醒有資安風險，這個部分我們可以從國安局專業的角度來提醒。"],["李委員坤城：不只是資安風險喔！我剛才提到這不是只有資安，美國不是從資安的角度，美國是從國安的角度來看。"],["蔡局長明彥：因為它的資安會連動到國安的問題，這當然是沒有問題，我們就國安局的立場，當然會特別提醒在這一部分要來注意。但我再次強調的是，政策的形成或法規的形成要有一個社會溝通的過程。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我的意思是當美國都已經警惕到TikTok對他們資安、國安的影響，臺灣更要有警惕心。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，應該來做……"],["李委員坤城：你身為國安局的局長，我覺得對於這部分應該要有更高的警戒心才對啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：有！我們有在注意美國的立法進度及他們關切的重點。"],["李委員坤城：再請教一下，在去年美國聯邦眾議院有通過「台灣國際團結法案」，歐洲議會也有通過一個「歐中關係」，最主要都在講聯合國大會第2758號決議，只有處理中國代表權的問題，沒有涉及到臺灣對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對！這是中共國際一中的框架，想要限縮臺灣的主權地位跟國際參與的空間，我們必須要予以回擊。"],["李委員坤城：對！現在連諾魯在跟我們斷交的時候，它是怎麼表示的？它表示以一中原則及第2758號決議，以此跟臺灣斷交，但是AIT的主席羅森伯格有提到，第2758號決議沒有決定臺灣的地位，沒有排除任何國家與臺灣建立外交關係，也沒有排除臺灣有意義地參與聯合國的體系空間，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想第2758號決議中國有刻意錯誤的去解讀，主要的目的就是限縮我們的主權地位、矮化我們的主權地位，讓臺灣變成在國際一中的框架下中國的附庸，這部分我們會建議要不斷地來串聯國際社會對這一部分做更進一步地說明。"],["李委員坤城：所以本席要請教在520之前，中國有沒有在國際法律認知戰上，即在所謂的國際一中框架下，加強對於臺灣的施壓？"],["蔡局長明彥：有、有，有這樣的跡象。"],["李委員坤城：有這樣的跡象？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們剛才在報告當中也提到了，它現在主要的重點就是以國際一中的框架來限縮我們國際參與的空間，我們相信在520之前，它也會持續地透過這種施壓的狀況，來影響後續新政府的兩岸政策走向。"],["李委員坤城：這就是本席要請教的，在520之前有沒有可能有邦交國宣布斷交的跡象？"],["蔡局長明彥：這要持續的來注意，因為中共現在在誘拉我們邦交國的作法越來越多元，不單單只是透過政府之間的接觸，也透過它的民企，包括華為在當地有很多的動作，例如有一些投資案、有一些資通建設的基礎設施、有一些設備的捐助，利用這些活動來加強跟我們邦交國政府的互動聯繫，我們都有在注意。"],["李委員坤城：所以局長也有在追蹤有可能在520之前，第一個，就是在國際一中的法律認知戰上對於臺灣的施壓；第二個，是不是你們認為有跡象，在520之前有可能在外交上會再繼續施壓臺灣的外交空間？"],["蔡局長明彥：是，會繼續施壓，我們保持高度的警戒。"],["李委員坤城：所以有這個跡象就對了？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我們所有駐外同仁都非常地注意中共對我們邦交國相關誘拉的動作。"],["李委員坤城：好，請你們多注意喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：會！這是我們的工作。"],["李委員坤城：因為有可能在520之前會繼續再施壓，避免另外一個諾魯事件再發生。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們避免這種事情的發生，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝局長。"],["主席：現在先宣告，等一下賴士葆委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘。","現在請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-4","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","陳冠廷","邱志偉","賴士葆","張啓楷","吳宗憲","陳永康","林憶君","王定宇","黃仁","王鴻薇","洪申翰"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發\n展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131001_00012"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.8072187500000001,"end":1.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.8872187500000002,"end":3.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.57471875,"end":4.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.56096875,"end":12.383468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.585968750000003,"end":17.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.61471875,"end":19.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.48784375,"end":23.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.17909375,"end":29.781593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.984093750000003,"end":33.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.42221875,"end":40.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.39596875,"end":42.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.91034375,"end":46.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.62284375,"end":48.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.97284375,"end":48.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.63096875,"end":55.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.92096875,"end":62.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.16034375,"end":66.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.51846875000001,"end":69.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.82596875,"end":73.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.63971875,"end":79.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.00159375,"end":80.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.84534375,"end":81.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.43159375,"end":85.48596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.84034375,"end":87.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.74721875,"end":92.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.84346875,"end":95.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.40846875000001,"end":98.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.29409375,"end":100.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.26846875000001,"end":100.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.63971875,"end":103.67721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.99784375,"end":104.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多的動作例如有一些投資案例如有一些支通建設的基礎設施例如有一些設備的捐助那利用這些的活動來加強跟我們邦交國政府的一個互動聯繫我們都有在注意"},{"start":535.58,"end":563.039,"text":"所以局長也有這個在追蹤就是說有可能在520之前第一個就是在國際中的這個法律戰的認知上面對於台灣的施壓那第二個是不是有跡象你們有跡象就是說認為說有可能在520之前在外交上面會再繼續施壓台灣的這個外交空間我們會繼續施壓我們會保持高度的警戒所以是有這個跡象就對了我們駐外同仁所有人都非常的注意中共對我們邦交國相關誘拉的動作好"},{"start":563.599,"end":572.683,"text":"請你們多注意,因為有可能在520之前會再繼續再施壓,避免另外一個懦弱事件再發生。對,我們避免這種事情的發生。謝謝委員的提醒。"}]}},{"id":"149656","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149656","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43004da21d50badb14a7ee83bb1dd0927c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6f6c1ccb80721074c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:35:05 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這個諮詢的倫理、諮詢的次序也很重要那個是不是請公平會會後再把一個 主席你就直接踩一次我6個月有困難嗎?你把相關的資金訂出來我們朝這個方向來努力看看"},{"start":552.791,"end":557.058,"text":"朝哪個方向?朝您講的6個月內好不好?朝6個月內把指引辦法訂定出來。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149655","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149655","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300acedab8ecd3c07cd1cfe294bc3fbc1e0f8ba9b0039caa7a6964214b7b879ce4d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:33:41 - 10:44:09","影片長度":"00:10:28","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部列席就「國家運動科學中心如何協助運動選手，提升參加國際競賽成績之具體作為。」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":628,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:44:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:33:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":643,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時33分）主席好，有請次長、署長跟執行長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請次長、署長跟黃執行長。"],["林次長騰蛟：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：大家辛苦了，其實我自己的三個小孩都有參加運動賽事的比賽，所以我長期以來都會對於運動發展非常關心。基本上在足球場的各種賽事，我大概都在現場，所以最近足協鬧了兩個爭議事件，第一個就是女足的部分，一個極度不平等的契約在立法院質詢之後，才趕緊宣布無效；接著又因為世界盃資格賽借無場地，場地變成要去高雄楠梓機場，真的是在足球圈一片譁然。這件事情其實我想要討論的是，因為在2017年的時候，體改有四大目標，基本上就是組織開放、營運專業、財務透明、績效考核，我就想問國際賽借無場地，營運專業到底在哪裡？"],["林次長騰蛟：是，我跟……"],["張委員雅琳：等一下，因為我查了一下體育行政管理人才其實之前是有一些課程，在108年有辦課程，但在108年之後就再也沒有任何課程了。可是我看關於職能的課程，棒球經紀人跟運動中心營運管理都還有持續開，開到這兩年，那我想問為什麼108年行政管理人才課程卻停擺了呢？因為這是非常重要的，這次世足賽之所以沒有場地是我們連預控會議都沒有參加，所以行政人才需要對內去做很多公文的往返，對外要去串聯這些資源，為什麼沒有再繼續辦下去，請次長可以回答我嗎？謝謝。"],["林次長騰蛟：跟委員報告，這部分是不是由我們鄭署長幫忙回復。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分其實它在第1期的體育行政管理人才課程是職業基準，也是配合勞動部來進行，第1期的課程我自己也有上，所以我當時也是學員之一。"],["張委員雅琳：對，那後來呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：目前我們持續在辦理當中，那第1期課程的認證是在112年7月28日才認證通過，這是因為勞動部的審查需要一段時間，這部分我們會持續辦理。"],["張委員雅琳：OK，我想問一下秘書長職能基準的課程，因為我在網路上其實找不到資訊，但是我調資料是說4月的時候會辦，可是這個基準的效期卻到10月27號就截止了，等於說才辦完6個月就結束了，就要再重新上嗎？是這個意思嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，能不能讓我的產業組組長來報告這部分呢？"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["劉組長姿君：報告委員，之前的體育行政班是試辦期間，我們依據運動產業發展條例第十一條，就是循勞動部的職能基準建置……"],["張委員雅琳：這個剛剛我知道了。"],["劉組長姿君：它有分兩個階段，然後後面有一個課程發展，所以我們課程發展也經過認證，預定今年4月會辦理。"],["張委員雅琳：這個職能基準到10月底不就結束了嗎？"],["劉組長姿君：它的效期可以再延續。"],["張委員雅琳：OK，好喔！那我希望我們應該要持續的去規劃這些相關課程，因為我真的不希望在這種世足國際賽上面，竟然還會遇到這樣子的問題。","第二件事情其實是運科人力的部分，巴黎奧運已經即將要開始了，大家其實都非常關注，可是從2020東京奧運的時候就有發現運科人力不足，人力不足的問題一直存在，我們從左邊看這是運科處的部分，運科處目標應該要91人，可是到現在還差25個人；那運科中心員額應該是100人，可是現在還差58個人，我就想要問為什麼我們到現在還是一直沒有辦法聘足人，這到底原因是什麼？是薪資呢？還是人才培育的機制有問題呢？"],["林次長騰蛟：請鄭署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分我先做補充，如果有說不足之處，再請執行長。這部分當時在一開始設計的時候，其實我們的確所有人才幾乎都在大專院校，所以我們在籌備的過程當中已經先設一個薪資標準，希望能夠比照大學的這些助理教授、副教授、教授等級來聘用。但是這個期間，籌備過程到今年，其實除了33位全職之外，已經有跟幾所大學合聘大概9位的教授，其實是循序漸進的部分，因為所有人才都在大學，我們當然希望陸陸續續來輔導……"],["張委員雅琳：那我想問一下，我們大概預計什麼時候會聘足呢？所以薪資沒有問題是嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：薪資目前應該是沒有太大問題，因為跟大學是一樣的。"],["張委員雅琳：運科處跟運科中心都沒有？"],["鄭署長世忠：對、對、對。"],["張委員雅琳：所以預計什麼時候會聘足呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們今年目標是53位，因為我們在聘人的部分其實還是非常的謹慎，因為要把他聘進來之後，大家也知道要把他送走其實沒那麼簡單，但我們今年目標還是在巴黎奧運這件事情，先把基礎打好了，我們後續再來做，不管是全民健康、產業技術、技轉的部分……"],["張委員雅琳：好，瞭解。那我想再追問，就是我們有9位跟大學合聘，可是因為巴黎奧運已經緊鑼密鼓的籌備，我就想要知道這些人，因為9位等於是一半，有將近一半的人其實是在學校裡，他們真的可以提供全力的支援給我們的奧運選手嗎？"],["黃執行長啟煌：其實不是在學校裡，因為我們有給予特別的、很清楚的任務指派給他們，他們常常到中心來，直接在第一線跟我們的教練做互動，提供實質的支援。"],["張委員雅琳：所以事實上雖然是合聘，可是他們其實都在中心裡是嗎？"],["黃執行長啟煌：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：好，瞭解。我想要再問第二個問題，因為剛剛說薪資沒有問題，可是我也發現，運科處說薪資沒有問題，我們的薪資現在數字起薪是四萬二千多，我在網路上面google了一下，平均薪資大概是四萬五千多，這是第一個問題，我覺得這好像有落差，不然為什麼好像流動率……你看原本是68個人，後來又走掉變成66個人，離職人數也是居高不下，所以我想知道薪資真的沒有問題嗎？"],["林次長騰蛟：跟委員報告，運科中心的薪資部分，事實上在立法院前一屆也有委員關心這個問題，所以當時在110年有全盤去做檢討，同時也瞭解社會聘僱的薪資部分，整體去做一個盤整，所以當時也做了調整，同時也考慮到他是不是具有國家證照或證照，以及他的年資還有他的學歷部分，都已經有做了一些調整，並且也配合軍公教的待遇做了一些調整，所以今年1月份開始的軍公教待遇調整也都同步處理。"],["張委員雅琳：好。所以今年又重新調整薪資了，對不對？"],["林次長騰蛟：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這個部分我們就持續追下去，看看會不會有人力不足的問題。","接下來想討論一下，其實世界各國的運科員工人數是比臺灣來得更高，現在我們的人力編制還有更高的目標嗎？"],["林次長騰蛟：跟委員報告，目前通過運科中心董事會的部分是100位，剛才也報告了，今年會聘到53位，它本來就是一個行政法人，配合實際上的需求，未來如果還有增加人力的需要，提到董事會去做討論後就可以來實施。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我希望這個部分我們可以持續去關注。我要講的重點是這一張，我希望運科的計畫可以落實到基層，我們現在來看一下左邊這張圖，受測學校到113年是到75人，受測人數到113年是到1,263人，我們可以看到每年是以10%的幅度在增加，可是現在體育班的學生就已經有三萬六千多人，要花多少年才可以完成這些學生的檢測？36年，要36年才能完成這些學生的檢測。因為這些體育學生其實都是我們未來選手的農場，所以我希望可以去把這些計畫真正地再加深、擴大，因為我們明明都還有預算，讓這些小孩從小就開始接受這些運動科學的訓練，減少運動傷害，讓他們可以真正地成為一個好的選手，來為國家爭光、為自己爭取榮耀。所以我想問的最後一個問題是，這個輔導機制未來可不可以擴大？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，目前初期這幾年是先由體育署競技組跟學校組來協助基層運科的部分，未來我們希望運科中心中間先加入來扮演一個審查機制的角色，當然我們最希望的是縣市政府能夠一起來做，因為完全由中央來資助這個補助款，其實我們能力也是有限，我們希望縣市政府一起加進來，目前桃園、新北、臺北、臺中陸陸續續都已經有加入，並且還在擴大當中。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這個擴大的詳細計畫可不可以提供給我們辦公室？","我再問最後一題，還有第二個提醒，我們在做這個運動科學的時候其實很多基層教練並不瞭解運動科學如何協助選手的學習，所以這是不是有一個輔導機制？這是第一個；第二個，我們有沒有去追蹤這些選手的表現？有沒有因為採用了這個運動科學提升他的研究表現？這有沒有相關計畫正在制定？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這個部分的確，因為過去我們補助款下去，其實在KPI的部分相對薄弱，所以我們今年開始有分兩期的補助款，中期如果期中報告達到我們的需求，尾款才能夠繼續撥付，這個機制目前正在建立當中，當然我們希望運科中心進來之後可以扮演更重要的角色來輔導基層。"],["張委員雅琳：好。這個詳細的機制因為已經有計畫了嘛，計畫可不可以提供到我們辦公室？謝謝大家。"],["林次長騰蛟：謝謝張委員。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員。"],["主席（范委員雲代）：我們現在請林宜瑾委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":280,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","萬美玲","葉元之","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","范雲","羅美玲","牛煦庭","吳春城","徐巧芯","黃國昌","柯志恩","林倩綺","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":219,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部列席就「國家運動科學中心如何協助運動選手，提升參加國際競賽成績之具體作\n為。」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13.125968750000002,"end":13.750343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14.340968750000002,"end":17.817218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18.711593750000002,"end":21.816593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.07409375,"end":22.930343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":24.09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等於說要在辦完6個月就結束了就要再重新上嗎?是這個意思嗎?幫委員我能不能讓我的產業組組長來報告這部分呢?好 謝謝"},{"start":174.657,"end":198.064,"text":"報告委員之前的體育行政班那個是事辦期間那我們依據運動產業法案條例第11條我們就是循勞動部那邊的職能基準建制這剛剛我知道了然後後面有一個課程發展所以我們課程發展也經過認證那預定今年4月會辦理那這個職能基準到10月底不就結束了嗎"},{"start":199.064,"end":226.306,"text":"她的校期可以再延續OK 好那我希望就是說我們應該要持續的去規劃這些相關的課程喔因為我真的不希望在這種氏族國際賽上面我們竟然還會遇到這樣子的問題那第二件事情其實是我們運科人力的部分就是說我們巴黎賽巴黎奧運已經即將要開始了那大家其實都非常的關注可是從2020東京奧運的時候就發現這運科人力的不足人力不足問題一直存在"},{"start":227.694,"end":248.404,"text":"我們從左邊看到這是運科處的部分運科處目標應該有91人可是我們到現在還有差25個人那我們運科中心呢 原額應該是100人可是我們現在還差58個人那我就想要問為什麼我們到現在我們還是沒有辦法聘卜一直聘足人這到底原因是什麼是薪資呢還是人才培育的機制有問題呢"},{"start":249.404,"end":271.469,"text":"報告委員這部分我先做補充如果說不足之處而請執行長那這部分當時在一開始設計的時候其實我們的確所有人才幾乎都在大專院校所以我們在籌備的過程當中我們已經先設一個薪資的標準希望能夠比照大學的這些助理教授副教授教授等級來聘用那但是呢這個期間"},{"start":272.629,"end":275.971,"text":"我希望問一下我們大概預計什麼時候會聘主呢?所以薪資沒有問題是嗎?運科處跟運科中心都沒有?對對對"},{"start":296.182,"end":314.16,"text":"所以我們預計什麼時候會聘組呢?我們在今年目標是53位因為我們在聘人的部分其實還是非常的謹慎因為要把他聘進來之後大家也知道要把他送走其實沒那麼簡單但我們今年目標還是在巴黎的奧運這件事情先把基礎打好了我們再來後續再來做不管是全民健康產業技術計轉"},{"start":315.922,"end":316.142,"text":"是的。是的。"},{"start":345.236,"end":369.362,"text":"好 了解那我再想要問第二個問題就是說因為剛剛說薪資沒有問題可是問題是我也發現運科處說薪資沒有問題可是我們的薪資現在數字起薪是四萬兩千多我在網路上面google了一下大概平均的薪資大概是四萬五千多所以這是第一個問題我覺得這好像有落差不然為什麼我們好像流動率你看聘了三十原本是六十六個人可是"},{"start":370.162,"end":370.302,"text":"委員關心這個問題"},{"start":390.616,"end":417.262,"text":"所以當時候在110年有全盤去做一個檢討同時也了解這個社會的這個這個聘僱的這樣子的一個薪資的部分整理去做一個盤整所以當時候大概也做了一個調整那麼同時呢也會考慮到他是不是具有國家的證照或具有證照以及呢他的年資還有他的學歷都已經有做了一些調整同時呢也都配合軍公教的待遇來做一個調整所以今年"},{"start":418.002,"end":443.848,"text":"今年一月份開始的軍務調整也都同步處理。好,那所以等於說今年又重新調整薪資了,對不對?那這個東西我們就持續追下去,看會不會有這個人力不足的問題。那再下一個,就是想要討論一下,因為其實世界各國他們的運科人才的數,運科的員工人數其實是比台灣來的更高。那這部分我希望說,因為現在在人力編制,我們還有再更高的目標嗎?"},{"start":446.848,"end":467.161,"text":"目前通過運科中心董事會的部分目前是100位今年會聘到53位本來就是一個行政法人如果配合實際上的需要未來如果還有增加人力的需要提到董事會去做一個討論之後就可以來實施"},{"start":467.881,"end":485.816,"text":"我希望這東西我們可以持續的去關注因為我重點是我要講這一張就是說其實我們現在我們運科的人力運科的這個計畫我希望它可以落實到基層我們現在來看一下左邊這張圖我們現在是授冊學校到113年到了75個人授冊人數到113年是到了1263年可是1263人我們可以看到每年增加的幅度是以10%的"},{"start":493.442,"end":493.482,"text":"﹚張雅琳"},{"start":522.494,"end":533.659,"text":"讓這些小孩子從小就開始接受這些運動科學的訓練減少運動傷害讓他們可以真正的成為一個好的選手來為國家爭光為自己爭取榮耀所以我想要問最後一個問題是說我們現在這個輔導機制未來可不可以擴大"},{"start":539.541,"end":566.781,"text":"我們目前是初期先由這幾年是由體育署競技組跟學校組來協助基層的運科的部分那未來呢我們也當然希望運科中心可以扮演一個中間先加入來扮演一個審查的機制的一個角色那我們當然最希望的是縣市政府能夠一起來做因為完全由中央來資助這個補助款其實我們的能力也是有限我們希望縣市政府能一起加進去那目前桃園新北台北"},{"start":567.441,"end":569.583,"text":"台中都已經有陸陸續續有加入我們目前還在擴大當中"},{"start":597.261,"end":597.345,"text":"主席。"},{"start":597.677,"end":597.857,"text":"謝謝大家,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149654","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149654","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300f32f4774f7720167aea18303c979697ef8ba9b0039caa7a6db1f3aab1f5467a15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:32:04 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10:43:41","影片長度":"00:11:37","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-5"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":697,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:43:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:32:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":720,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時32分）謝謝主席，我們有請秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：吳委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝秘書長。秘書長，你以前也擔任過第8跟第9屆兩屆的立委。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：其實您的父親是我們所有唸法律的人都非常尊敬而且崇拜地五體投地的一位大師級教授。"],["李秘書長俊俋：不敢，我今天是以監察院秘書長的身分來的。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，我想憲法的部分你應該也都非常熟悉嘛。"],["李秘書長俊俋：那是我的專長。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，這我們都知道。最近我們國會改革的部分有滿多的爭議，其實國會改革有很多的部分，我們這次提的東西都是當初民進黨以前提過的，這段時間憲法也沒有很大的修正，我也不懂為什麼當年覺得這個是合憲、合理的，但是到今天就覺得不合憲、不合理，然後還說我們是毀憲亂政。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我想要針對每一個不同的部分做不同的討論。"],["吳委員宗憲：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我不知道吳委員現在就教的是國會調查權的部分，還是哪一個部分？我不知道。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，我提幾個部分啦，請教一下，釋字第325號就立法院跟監察院在於文件調閱等權限上面，其實應該也說得滿清楚了嘛，也就是說立法院在法案還有一些預算案審理的時候，它本身就有一個文件調閱的權限，我想這個釋字的內容秘書長一定瞭解。"],["李秘書長俊俋：吳委員，我跟您報告一下，釋字第325號的原始由來是因為監察院已經變成不是國會了。"],["吳委員宗憲：對。"],["李秘書長俊俋：過去的國會包括國民大會、立法院跟監察院，1994年監察院就不再是國會了，所以釋字第325號強調的是，憲法原來規定第九十五條、第九十六條的調查權仍然由監察院來執行，但是立法院可以有文件調閱權，這是釋字第325號主要的重點。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝，真的非常清楚。我現在來提一個問題，我們這一次談到金門翻船案的時候，這個案子到底可不可以成立調閱小組其實有一些爭執，我們有提出一些講法，當然有一些貴黨的委員也提出，其實這個成立調查小組是有問題的，但是我想提一下，在2016年立法院處理慶富案的時候，當時也有成立過兩個調閱小組，為什麼當時成立調閱小組？我記得好像是王定宇委員……我看過發言的還有莊瑞雄委員，當時成立這個調閱小組都不會有爭議，今天卻有爭議跑出來，這個部分其實我不是很瞭解，我只是在這邊講一下我的想法啦，當然這個跟監察院沒有絕對的關聯性。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我是不是可以跟吳委員說明一下？這個……"],["吳委員宗憲：我再來提一下，其實蔡英文在上任的時候提過一個很重要的東西，就是他認為考試院跟監察院應該要廢掉，他認為廢考監這個事情是民進黨長期以來的主張，我不知道秘書長對這一塊有沒有什麼想法？"],["李秘書長俊俋：廢考監是民進黨長期以來的主張，這個我瞭解，過去第8屆、第10屆都有提過廢考監的主張，在第10屆沒有討論，第8屆有討論，但是國民黨不同意。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，那現在呢？秘書長，您對於監察院現在的功能……"],["李秘書長俊俋：監察院這件事情，因為修憲是立法院的職權，我們監察院對這個沒有評論。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我必須講一個，之前我在市府的時候，對於監察院的調查，我自己心裡很有感觸，尤其有非常多的案子其實我也不懂為什麼監察院的認定會這麼地讓我匪夷所思。當然，因為這邊是立法院，我就不就個案去提，但是我一直覺得監察院，像剛剛秘書長說的，每一個委員絕對是獨立在做案子的審查，對吧？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，獨立行使職權。"],["吳委員宗憲：獨立行使他的職權，而獨立行使職權，依照憲法增修條文第七條第五款的規定說得很清楚，監察委員要超越黨派。"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：不能把黨派放在心中啦，這個我也算是提醒吧！秘書長，有機會其實要跟各個委員再提一下憲法增修條文的這個部分，絕對要超越黨派，就像我剛剛說的，我在市府的時候非常有感觸，很多東西如果照這樣玩，有時候有人就感覺監察院怎麼到最後好像怪怪的，感覺不是超越黨派在處理事情，尤其是對於一些案子。譬如我以前在新北市政府，有某些案子的調查其實是讓我們覺得，如果可以這樣查，那還要監察院幹嘛。","接下來我再談一個案子，是跟檢察官有關的，那是前幾年的案子，這個案子其實造成了檢方非常大的反彈，就是所謂的曲棍球案，曲棍球那個案子你們應該知道嘛，這個案子當時的監察委員對承辦的檢察官──彰化地檢的檢察官，他好像是前後提了兩次的彈劾。我現在要提的點是，第一個，有沒有違反一事不再理？就程序上面來說，對同一個案子，這個案子即使你今天照監察院的反駁是說他不是同一個行為，但是這個東西也是有它一體性的判斷，不管是德國或是我國，只要符合一體性的判斷，你不能就一個個案的某一個行為……同一個檢察官有A行為跟B行為，結果把他分兩次彈劾，這個在程序上面絕對違反一事不再理的原則，我不知道為什麼監察院要去欺負檢察官？這是我……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我可以跟吳委員報告嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：OK，程序的部分先麻煩秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：好，我跟吳委員報告，這個陳隆翔的案子的確經過監察院的彈劾，目前仍然還在懲戒法院當中，你所說的、所提的說為什麼有兩次？因為懲戒法院認為有兩個不同的事由。"],["吳委員宗憲：我必須講啦！這個它在一體性上面是沒有問題的，而且是同一個案子，我不知道為什麼可以這樣做？再來，我們都很清楚如果你要做不同的彈劾，必須要有新事實、新證據對吧？我不懂一個案子在第一次審理的時候已經出現的事項、事由，為什麼最後又可以把它認為是新事實、新證據？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟吳委員報告，這是依照監察法第八條相關的規定，有新事實、新證據，而且懲戒法院第一次彈劾以後，它就說其實還有其他的部分你們沒有查到，所以這個部分我們才會進行第二次新事實、新事證的查處，查處完以後我們送懲戒法院，現在仍然在懲戒法院當中。"],["吳委員宗憲：新事實、新證據怎麼會這樣解釋呢？秘書長，我想你可能要再去請教一下法律學者。新事實、新證據是念法律的人都很瞭解的東西，絕對是原來的案子中沒有出現的才叫新事實、新證據。如果自己漏未審酌，怎麼能叫新事實、新證據？照這樣講的話，刑事訴訟法第二百六十條的新事實、新證據，就是卷裡面曾經有的東西但我當天沒看到，能叫做新事實、新證據嗎？這在法律上是絕對不對的！"],["李秘書長俊俋：吳委員，我跟你報告……"],["吳委員宗憲：麻煩你們！這案子的委員有兩位，一位是律師，一位還當過高院庭長，他們不會不懂法律，竟然做出這樣的認定？說真的，我沒有辦法理解，也很替彰化地檢的檢察官叫屈，不應該這樣欺負檢察官，不應該這樣侵害司法權！"],["李秘書長俊俋：謝謝吳委員。我跟吳委員報告，這是懲戒法院的意見，所以我們遵從懲戒法院的意見進行第二次彈劾。至於這部分的相關資料，我是不是事後再提供給吳委員？"],["吳委員宗憲：再來，我剛剛說的是程序部分，這個不叫做新事實、新證據，根本就是違反一事不再理原則！我再提到，有關實體部分也有問題。今天司法救濟有其一定程序，對於檢察官的起訴，我們後面有審級，一審的判決之後有二審的審級救濟。對於檢察官的不起訴處分，我們可以申請再議，這些都有相關的程序救濟，即便案子已經判決確定了，也有非常上訴與再審的救濟途徑，今天為什麼跑出監察院可以就本案實體審理部分加以審酌，說什麼東西沒有沒收，這是檢察官偵查案件的職權，有沒有沒收怎麼是監察院審查的部分？再者，應該緩起訴或不應該緩起訴，這也不是監察院的範圍，我想我沒有講錯吧？您父親跟您都是法律學者，一定很瞭解我今天在講什麼。我當過檢察官，所以我要捍衛檢察官的一些權利！監察委員應該是就行政事項去做審查，譬如說出勤狀況，譬如辦案子的有罪率或什麼，就這個部分去審查，我絕對服從，大家都不會有意見。但實在不應該就個案實體去審查，如果這樣的話，那監察院不是變成最高法院以外的第四個審級嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟委員報告，這是委員獨立行使職權，我不便發表任何評論。但今天委員所關心的，我會回去轉達給委員知道。"],["吳委員宗憲：就這部分，我們完全就事論事，再麻煩秘書長可不可以在兩個禮拜內給我們一個調查的……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們會將書面內容提供給委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想我剛剛講的非常清楚……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我瞭解。"],["吳委員宗憲：該案從程序面、從實體面，不要說我沒有辦法接受，當時連檢察官協會都生氣跳出來了，很多法律學者也出來寫文章，但就這個案子後來就不了了之。我覺得我不能這樣子，我還是要捍衛我們的司法體制。好，謝謝。"],["李秘書長俊俋：瞭解。這個部分，我兩個禮拜以內提供給吳委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳召委，謝謝李秘書長。","主席在這裡先做宣告，稍後在翁委員曉玲發言完畢後，休息5分鐘。","接續請謝委員龍介進行發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","陳俊宇","羅智強","傅崐萁","林思銘","吳宗憲","謝龍介","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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憲法原來規定95條96條的調查權仍然由監察院來執行但是立法院可以有文件調閱權這是4至325主要的重點"},{"start":144.142,"end":169.062,"text":"那我現在來提一個東西就是說其實我們這一次在談到這個金門番傳案的時候這到底可不可以成立這個調閱小組那其實有一些爭執嘛那我們當然有提出一些講法當然也有一些就是貴黨的委員他也提出說這個其實成立調查小組這個是有問題的但是我想提一下就是說其實2016年的時候那時候我們在處理慶富案"},{"start":170.063,"end":190.955,"text":"立法院在處理慶富案的時候當時立法院也有成立過兩個調閱小組那為什麼當時成立調閱小組我記得好像是王定宇委員那我看過發言的也還有莊瑞雄委員那當時這個調閱小組都不會有爭議那今天卻有爭議跑出來這個部分我"},{"start":192.256,"end":213.831,"text":"其實我不是很了解我只是在這邊講一下我的想法啦那當然這個跟監察院沒有絕對的關聯性那我再來提一下就是說其實蔡英文政府啊蔡英文在上任的時候她其實提過一個很重要的東西就是她認為說考試院跟監察院應該要廢掉"},{"start":214.972,"end":235.884,"text":"那他認為廢考監這個事情是民進黨長期以來的主張那我不知道這個民主黨對這一塊有沒有什麼想法廢考監的部分是民進黨長期以來主張這個我了解那過去第8屆第10屆這個都有提過廢考監的一個主張但是第10屆沒有討論第8屆有討論但是國民黨不同意"},{"start":243.351,"end":263.981,"text":"監察院對這件事情 因為修憲是立法院的職權我們監察院對這個沒有評論我必須講一個我之前我在市府的時候其實我對於監察院的調查我自己心裡很有感觸啦尤其非常多的案子其實我們也不懂為什麼監察院的認定會"},{"start":265.282,"end":265.522,"text":"獨立請指示"},{"start":282.242,"end":298.237,"text":"獨立行使他的職權獨立行使職權依照憲法第7條第5款其實說得很清楚監察委員要超越黨派不能把黨派放在心中我也是這個我算是提醒吧秘書長"},{"start":299.398,"end":313.394,"text":"有機會其實要跟各個委員再提一下憲法徵修條文的這個部分絕對要超越黨派就像我剛剛說的我在市府的時候非常有感觸很多東西如果照這樣玩有時候有人就感覺監察院怎麼到最後好像"},{"start":314.639,"end":314.759,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":332.131,"end":358.6,"text":"跟檢察官有關的那是前幾年的案子那這個案子其實是造成了檢方非常大的反彈我想就是大家所謂的區棍球案區棍球那個案子區棍球案你們應該知道嘛那這個案子呢當時的這個監察委員他對承辦的檢察官彰化地檢的檢察官他前後做了兩次"},{"start":359.793,"end":360.013,"text":"主席"},{"start":373.035,"end":401.254,"text":"有沒有違反一事不在理就程序上面對同一個案子這個案子他即使你今天照監察院的反駁是說他不是就同一個行為但是他這個東西也是有他一體性的判斷因為一體性的判斷不管是德國不管是我國只要符合一體性的判斷你不能就一個個案的某一個行為A行為跟B行為這兩個檢查同一個檢察官有A行為跟B行為就你把它分兩次彈劾"},{"start":402.294,"end":425.612,"text":"這個在程序上面絕對違反一式不在理的原則。我不知道為什麼監察院要去欺負檢察官。這是我...我跟...可以跟吳委員報告嗎?我跟吳委員報告。這個陳榮祥的案子的確經過監察院的彈劾。目前仍然還在懲戒法院當中。那你所說的、所提的說為什麼有兩次?因為懲戒法院認為有兩個不同的室友。"},{"start":427.25,"end":438.178,"text":"成就法案認為有兩個不同的適用我必須講啦齁這個他在一體性上面是沒有問題而且是同一個案子我不知道為什麼可以這樣做再來我們都很清楚"},{"start":439.488,"end":447.291,"text":"我跟吳委員報告這是依照監察法第8條相關的規定有新事實新證據而且懲戒法院對第一個彈劾案以後他就說其實還有其他的部分你們沒有查到"},{"start":468.158,"end":476.592,"text":"所以這個部分我們才會進行第二次新事實新事證的查處那查處完以後我們送懲戒法院現在仍然在懲戒法院當中"},{"start":477.375,"end":495.973,"text":"新事實新證據怎麼會是這樣解釋呢?秘書長我想你可能再去請教一下法律學者新事實新證據這是念法律的人都很了解的東西這絕對是原來的案子中沒有出現的東西才叫新事實新證據你自己熱愛審酌怎麼叫新事實新證據?如果照這樣講新書用法260條新事實新證據那就"},{"start":500.737,"end":504.839,"text":"委員有兩位一位是律師一位還當過高院的法庭長他們不會不懂法律竟然做出這樣子的認定我說真的我沒有辦法理解而且我很替彰化地檢的那位檢察官叫屈不應該這樣欺負檢察官不應該這樣侵害司法權"},{"start":529.492,"end":540.244,"text":"謝謝吳委員我跟吳委員報告這個是懲戒法院的意見所以我們遵從懲戒法院的意見進行第二次的彈劾案那這個部分相關的資料我事後是不是再提供給吳委員"},{"start":542.694,"end":543.835,"text":"律師律師律師律師律師律師律師"},{"start":560.05,"end":582.21,"text":"對於檢察官的起訴我們後面有審計一審的判決之後有二審的審計救濟對於檢察官的不起訴處分我們可以申請在意都有相關的程序救濟即便案子已經判決確定了也有非常上述跟再審的救濟途徑今天為什麼跑出一個監察院可以就本案實體審理的部分加以去審酌"},{"start":583.615,"end":610.874,"text":"他說什麼東西沒有沒收這個根本就是檢察官他在偵查案件的職權有沒有沒收這個怎麼會是監察院可以審查的部分再來應該還起訴或不應該還起訴這也不是監察院的範圍阿我想我沒有講錯吧您是非常您也是法律您父親跟您都是憲法都非常清楚都是法律學者一定很了解我今天在講什麼"},{"start":612.886,"end":627.011,"text":"我當過警察官我還是要捍衛警察官的一些權利監察委員應該是就一些行政的事項上面去做審查比如說他的出勤的狀況他的一些辦案子的一些"},{"start":628.712,"end":628.892,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":646.667,"end":662.092,"text":"我跟委員報告這個是委員這個獨立行使之前我不便發表任何評論但是今天委員關心的我會回去轉達給委員知道是我們就這部分我們是完全是就事論事再麻煩這個秘書長這可不可以在兩個禮拜內給我們一個調查的"},{"start":668.934,"end":669.454,"text":"謝謝吳宗偉 謝謝李秘書"}]}},{"id":"149653","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149653","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300b8da9dc6c2bb3446aea18303c979697ef8ba9b0039caa7a6bbaac45826d34c475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:21:03 - 10:31:48","影片長度":"00:10:45","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-5"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":645,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:31:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:21:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":635,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時21分）謝謝主席，我們請秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：林委員好。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長好。我想針對剛才召委所提示的，召委，我們大家都不是資淺的委員，對於我們邀請各部會官員來列席做業務報告，當然我們每一位委員有時候會問跟今天專題有所不一樣的問題，但一定也是跟監察院業務有關，所以我們會問的題目有時候會不限於這個專題，也請召委見諒。","今天大家一直提到監察院績效的問題，因為我剛才看到好幾位委員都在問。請教秘書長，你認為我們去評鑑監察院的績效，因為你們一直強調不宜以案件的件數來評價你們的績效，那你認為要用什麼樣子來做為評鑑？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我想立法院、監察院都是憲政機關，社會自有公評啦！所以用案件來看不一定是一個合理的方式，包括立法院……"],["林委員思銘：你們內部自己有沒有做評鑑？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們自己沒有做評鑑。"],["林委員思銘：都沒有做評鑑？"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有做評鑑。"],["林委員思銘：就看我們社會大眾對你們的評價？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們尊重監察委員獨立行使職權。"],["林委員思銘：是，秘書長……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟林委員說明一下……"],["林委員思銘：依您的說法，監察院在今年1月20號就曾經對外表示外界不宜僅憑調查案件的件數來評價監察院的績效，但是監察院馬上又表示112年監察院收受人民書狀1萬6,418件，近8年來每年提升。就教秘書長，你不也是以案件數來說明自己的績效嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，我跟林委員說明，這個部分我剛剛一再強調，因為憲法規定監察委員獨立行使職權，所以不宜看案件數的多少，因為每個人查的案子到底是大案或小案、到底查的是哪一個部分都不一樣……"],["林委員思銘：對，秘書長剛才一直強調……"],["李秘書長俊俋：第二個是人民書狀部分，我跟委員報告，書狀量有成長本來就是一個事實，我們只是提出那個事實而已，我們把每年都提出來。"],["林委員思銘：好，我再明確地問您，我希望你也能明確地回答。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["林委員思銘：您覺得監察院的績效是該用哪些指標來評斷才正確？"],["李秘書長俊俋：其實監察院很難用特殊的指標，最重要的是有沒有把違法失職的部分揪出來，這個才是憲法賦予我們的權力。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長，我告訴你，事實上目前監察院調查案件的數目，外界普遍認為調查案件數目低落，更重要的是對於全國民眾關心的議題，監察院的監察權行使是否有速行速決？我想這是大家最關心的。包含最近金門海域的陸船翻覆事件、蘇丹紅流竄全臺的食安事件，以及上週陳院長也表示新聞台不該由政府關台，我們看到各部會在這幾件事情的表現，可以說是荒腔走板，問題仍然存在，都沒有解決，我們也看不到真相或者解決的方案。","所以本席要在這邊強調，確實案件數不是唯一評價監察院的指標，因為更重要的是監察院對於人民關心的重大事件，或是一些政府單位的濫權有沒有積極快速地調查？是不是有所怠惰、有虧職守？我想這個才是我們民眾最關心的。我來跟你討論一下食安的問題，我們看……"],["李秘書長俊俋：剛剛就林委員的部分，我可以很快地回答。"],["林委員思銘：好，你儘速回答。"],["李秘書長俊俋：兩個問題，第一個問題，監察委員依憲法賦予獨立行使職權，所以針對這個部分，我們監察院一般認定它是事後權，我們只處理公務員有沒有違法失職，除了這個以外，案件的快慢、案件的多寡不是監察院考慮的重點。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長，您說的都是標準答案，在過去你也一直如此回答委員……"],["李秘書長俊俋：事實也如此。"],["林委員思銘：但是對於重大的社會事件，您……"],["李秘書長俊俋：你剛剛提到的蘇丹紅及金門事件，我們都在查。"],["林委員思銘：期待相關各部會能夠儘快地查個水落石出，給全民社會一個交代。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們會查得很詳細，有沒有辦法儘快要看委員。"],["林委員思銘：我們現在來看食安事件，請問食安風暴事件有沒有委員已經立案調查了？"],["李秘書長俊俋：有，蘇丹紅已經立案調查了。"],["林委員思銘：好，我整理一下我們現在關心的蘇丹紅爭議事件，我們講行政院以及衛福部有四大荒謬之處，第一個，衛福部在去年就曾查獲，但是沒有任何作為；第二個，廠商違法添加竟是民眾檢舉，證明邊境檢查失守；第三個，廠商是否有做產品流向上下游的登記，食藥署長吳秀梅無正面回應；第四個，蘇丹紅事件爆發，行政院陳建仁自誇食安成效好，證明高層忽視。衛福部在2023年就已經查獲9件的蘇丹紅進口，但3次的食安會報與專報竟然隻字未提，行政院長陳建仁還在專案報告中口口聲稱我國的食安很好，結果直到民眾檢舉蘇丹紅才爆發這件事情。","根據行政院最新的施政報告，已要求大規模的食品業者設定食安安全監控以及追溯系統，但執政多年的執政黨──民進黨並無儘速建立，如今問題仍然還在，驗證政府的食安管理、食安溯源根本就是大破功。更誇張的是，事件發生已經超過半個月，衛福部直到3月4號才定調為系統性的食安事件，食藥署在3月6號才急忙在官網設置專區，把批號公開讓大眾查詢，民眾早就已經把有問題的食品吃下肚了，國人還能相信政府說食安沒有疑慮嗎？衛福部在今天表示它會在1個月之內解決這一次的蘇丹紅問題，所以我要請教監察院是否也可以在近期儘速把調查報告做出來？"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟林委員報告，你剛才所說的都是行政院的事情，監察院不便評論，監察院為了這件事情已經立案調查，我們會在調查報告寫得很清楚，因為裡面涉不涉及公務員的違法事情……"],["林委員思銘：不是，我前面鋪陳跟你講那麼多，就是希望儘快、儘速啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["林委員思銘：現在衛福部表示它1個月之內就會做出問題的解決……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我剛才已經說明過了，監察權是事後權，所以我們能不能儘快、儘速，我想委員都希望如此啊！"],["林委員思銘：我剛才點出那麼多問題是要讓監察院知道，我剛才講就是讓您瞭解這個問題所在……"],["李秘書長俊俋：好，謝謝，我瞭解、我瞭解。"],["林委員思銘：所以是不是可以也在1個月之內做出調查報告？"],["李秘書長俊俋：時間的部分我沒辦法承諾，這個是委員的職權。"],["林委員思銘：已經立案調查了嘛！所以我希望……"],["李秘書長俊俋：已經立案調查，但是查的……"],["林委員思銘：秘書長能夠要求。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我不能要求，委員獨立行使職權，我沒有能……"],["林委員思銘：但是你在召開整個會議的時候……"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有、沒有……"],["林委員思銘：我認為你要提出來啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個都是獨立行使職權，所以我不能去要求委員這個查快點、這個查慢一點。"],["林委員思銘：剛才你有回答了啦！但是秘書長……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我就沒辦法要求委員啊！"],["林委員思銘：我認為人民期待的案件，我們還是希望監察院儘速查明事實真相……"],["李秘書長俊俋：因為是人民期待的案件，所以監察委員會把它列為重大案件或特殊重大案件。"],["林委員思銘：否則讓大家覺得監察院都沒有針對我們社會重大的議題在做調查……"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個案子有立案調查。"],["林委員思銘：你事後調查出來也於事無補啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個有立案調查。"],["林委員思銘：這些政府單位他們無關痛癢、無感覺啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟委員報告，事後調查本來就是憲法賦予的權力……"],["林委員思銘：我想監察院還是要發揮監察院的功能啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們只能做這樣。"],["林委員思銘：OK，好，我要再請問你第二個，這次海巡署的問題，海巡署依法執勤的時候必須使用密錄器，以免造成執法的爭議，我們立法院決議要給它購買密錄器，當時也表示要購買，但是這一次的事件竟然發生海巡人員沒有配掛密錄器，所以沒有密錄器的影像，這方面委員有沒有立案調查？"],["李秘書長俊俋：有，我跟委員報告，這個案子在3月7號立案調查，所以您剛才提到的問題應該都會在調查報告中呈現。"],["林委員思銘：好，還有行政院數位身分證的問題，這次媒體也報導非常多，廠商是要求求償10億，在今年1月經過6次調解後雙方達成共識，賠償金額在2.8億左右。請問秘書長，同樣的問題，監察院是不是已經立案調查這個案子？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟委員報告一下，數位身分證的話，我們在110年有調查過，結論是要求內政部、國發會檢討改善。"],["林委員思銘：檢討改善！但是這次遇到要賠償，賠償沒有相關的人員要負責嗎？只有改善嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個案子會不會另外……"],["林委員思銘：相關人員的疏失責任要不要追究？要不要彈劾？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個案子我們會看委員有沒有提出自動調查。"],["林委員思銘：到現在還沒有嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：目前還沒有。"],["林委員思銘：所以我才說監察院都是後知後覺啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們也可以依據原來的案子再繼續後面的調查，每個案子我們都還是會追蹤。"],["林委員思銘：是，秘書長，我在這邊真的語重心長的希望監察院……"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，但是憲法賦予我們的權力就是事後權。"],["林委員思銘：對，事後權我們瞭解，未來在整個調查的相關議題上，對這些社會重大事件，委員要比較有感覺一點，不要後知後覺。你看，我現在問你，你說還沒有啟動調查。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我會轉達給委員知道。"],["林委員思銘：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，也謝謝李秘書長。","大家的討論非常激烈也很嚴肅，來說個輕鬆的，如果想要事前預防犯罪，可以參考湯姆·克魯斯主演的關鍵報告，可以在犯罪者犯罪之前就把他抓起來。","接下來我們有請吳委員宗憲發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","陳俊宇","羅智強","傅崐萁","林思銘","吳宗憲","謝龍介","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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民主黨我想我告訴你我想目前事實上"},{"start":175.383,"end":198.797,"text":"監察院調查案件數目,大家外界普遍認為調查的案件數目低落更重要的,對於全國民眾關心的議題,監察院的監察權行使是否有速行速決我想這是大家最關心的,包含最近的金門海域的陸船翻覆事件"},{"start":199.737,"end":221.345,"text":"蘇丹紅的流竄全台的食安事件：以及上週陳院長表示新聞台不該由政府關台那我們看到這幾件事情各部會的表現可以說荒腔走板那問題仍然存在都沒有解決我們也看不到真相或者解決的方案"},{"start":222.245,"end":248.699,"text":"所以本席要在這邊強調確實案件數不是唯一評價監察院的指標因為更重要的是監察院對於人民關心的重大事件或是一些政府單位的濫權有沒有積極快速的調查是不是有所帶動有虧職守我想這個才是我們民眾最關心的所以我來跟你討論一下食安的問題"},{"start":250.7,"end":265.716,"text":"就林委員的部分我可以回答很快好你趕快你技術回答兩個問題第一個問題就是監察委員依憲法是賦予獨立行使職權所以這個部分我們監察院一般認定他是事後權我們只處理公務員有沒有違法失職"},{"start":266.437,"end":292.643,"text":"那除了這個以外：案件的快慢：案件的多寡：不是監察院考慮的重點是那個民主黨這個您都是標準答案這過去您也一直不回答委員但是我想對於重大的社會事件那您期待的就是對香港更不會我們能夠盡快的去查個水落石出給我們全民社會一個交代我們現在來看那個食安事件那請問"},{"start":293.983,"end":317.04,"text":"這個食安風暴事件有沒有委員已經立案調查了有蘇丹紅已經立案調查那好我整理一下這個就是我們現在關心的這個蘇丹紅的生意事件我們講行政院以及衛福部有四大荒謬之處第一個衛福部在去年就成查獲但是沒有任何作為第二個廠商違法添加竟是民眾檢舉證明邊境檢查失守"},{"start":320.402,"end":335.273,"text":"第三．廠商是否有做產品上下游的登記．食藥署長吳秀梅正面回應第四．蘇丹紅的事件爆發．我們行政院陳建仁自誇．食安成效好．證明高層忽視"},{"start":336.734,"end":354.066,"text":"衛福部在2023年就已經查獲9件蘇丹紅進口．但3次食安匯報與專報竟然是隻字未提．行政院長陳建仁還在專案報告中口口聲稱我國的食安很好．結果直到民眾檢舉蘇丹紅才爆發這件事"},{"start":357.408,"end":378.477,"text":"根據行政院最新的施政報告．以要求大規模的食品業者設定食安安全的監控以及追溯系統．但執政多年的執政黨、民進黨並無競速建立．如今問題仍然還在．驗證政府的食安管理、食安溯源根本就是大破功．更誇張的"},{"start":379.918,"end":404.906,"text":"事件發生已經超過半個月,衛福部直到3月4號才定調為系統性的食安事件。食藥署在3月6號才急忙在關網設置專區,把批號公開讓大眾查詢,民眾早就把有問題的食品已經下肚了。國人還能相信政府說食安沒有疑慮嗎?"},{"start":406.739,"end":422.313,"text":"現在那個衛福部在今天他表示說他會在一個月之內解決這一次的蘇丹紅的問題所以我要請教我們監察院是否也可以在近期競速就可以把這個調查報告做出來"},{"start":423.838,"end":435.768,"text":"跟林委員報告,您剛所說的都是行政院的事情,我監察院不便評論,但我們監察院為了這件事情已經立案調查,我們會在調查報告寫得很清楚,我希望盡快盡速啦!"},{"start":440.412,"end":463.56,"text":"現在衛福部講說他一個月之內就會做出做出問題的解決所以我們能不能盡快盡速我想委員都希望如此我剛才講的就是讓您了解這個問題所在所以是不是可以也在一個月之內做出調查報告這個時間的部分我沒辦法承諾這個是委員的職權已經立案調查了嘛所以我希望藝術長您能夠要求"},{"start":466.221,"end":483.895,"text":"我不能要求 委員獨立行使職權我沒有能但是你在召開整個會議的時候沒有沒有 這個都是獨立行使職權所以我不能去要求委員你這個查快一點 你這個查慢一點剛才你有回答了啦但是 我想人民期待的案件我們還是希望監察院盡速查明事實真相或者讓他列為重大案件的特殊委員"},{"start":492.401,"end":492.481,"text":"海巡署"},{"start":518.403,"end":520.405,"text":"立法院決議購買密錄器,但事件發生海巡人員沒有配掛密錄器"},{"start":537.438,"end":537.578,"text":"主席"},{"start":554.74,"end":575.729,"text":"還有行政院數位身份證的問題我想這次媒體也報導非常多廠商是要求求償10億在今年1月經過6次調解後雙方達成共識賠償金額在2.8億左右請問民主黨同樣的問題我們監察院是不是已經立案調查這個案子"},{"start":577.359,"end":601.931,"text":"我跟委員報告一下數費身分證的話我們在110年有調查過那我們的結論是要求這個內政部國發會檢討改善檢討改善這次遇到要賠償啊賠償沒有相關的人員要負責嗎只有這個案子要改善相關人員的疏失責任要不要追究這個我們會看這個委員有沒有提出自動調查"},{"start":603.237,"end":603.517,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":619.691,"end":620.171,"text":"謝謝林委員 也謝謝李秘書長"}]}},{"id":"149652","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149652","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430088835320a657c52c43c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a6334e7edb528509595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"10:35:20 - 10:42:01","影片長度":"00:06:41","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-5"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":401,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:42:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:35:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":531,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（10時35分）感謝主席，請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["丁委員學忠：以前我們一起在雲林替雲林打拼，現在我們到中央替我們的國家打拼。"],["李主任委員進勇：恭喜委員。"],["丁委員學忠：謝謝、感謝。今天整個議題都是關於不在籍投票，我也想要向主委請教一下，之前我們推動不在籍投票，但為什麼之前的推動都無法通過？"],["李主任委員進勇：我剛才有報告過，有關總統、副總統的選舉不在籍投票，在102年有提出草案，105年也有提出草案，但是兩個草案都沒有完成審查的程序，最重要的原因就是大家意見差太多，所以必須要再進一步凝聚共識。"],["丁委員學忠：過去四年我們推不動，但這次很多委員都有支持不在籍投票，不知道我們主委有支持不在籍投票嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：整個大方向都沒問題，朝野大家都認為應該要有保障，但就是適用的範圍以及實施的方式，大家有很多不同的看法，這是必須要進一步討論的。"],["丁委員學忠：這次的報告我們中有提到107年政府特別修正公投法，在這部法律當中列出公投可以不在籍投票，這是我們107年修正的。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["丁委員學忠：同時，其實我們政府想要讓公投和選舉分開，才不會影響到執政黨的得票率，我們中選會後來將公民投票法不在籍投票修法案送到立法院，但最後沒有通過，現在是新的立法院，我們行政院已經又把公投法修法的法案送來給立法院，想要請問，你做中選會主委已經這麼久了，全民公投的不在籍投票法在上屆為何無法通過？"],["李主任委員進勇：我向委員報告，當然110年草案送過來之後，委員會也很積極地進行兩次的委員會審查，而且審查完畢了，不過在進入朝野黨團協商的時候就卡掉了，時間也不太夠且屆期不續審，雖然屆期不續審，但是在這個會期開始之後，我們把它列為優先的法案，所以在第一時間2月22號行政院就把原草案再送過來。"],["丁委員學忠：比較奇怪的是，我們上次執政黨的立委比較多，四年內的高層想要通過什麼就能通過什麼，為什麼修法案都那麼有效率、很快就通過，但影響小的全民公投不在籍投票卻沒辦法通過？這是讓人比較有疑問的。"],["李主任委員進勇：立法院的運作，我們行政機關不方便評論，但是不管怎麼樣，現在已經送進來了，也拜託委員能幫忙推動。"],["丁委員學忠：有關公投，我們政府有很多法令改來改去，投票率低，要通過的機率也沒有那麼高，應該不用去煩惱什麼，這個部分應該不用煩惱。"],["李主任委員進勇：所以拜託委員可以多支持公投法的不在籍投票草案。"],["丁委員學忠：會不會是我們政府不想要推動不在籍投票，會這樣嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：這幾年來據我所瞭解，其實大家都很積極，只不過要怎麼實施，我們希望可以用穩健的步伐逐步地來推動。"],["丁委員學忠：是，剛才我一進來坐下聽到的不在籍投票都有卡到這兩個字：「中國」，有關不在籍投票難道只有設定「中國」而已嗎？是這樣嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：第一點，這是一個客觀的形勢，境外尤其是敵對勢力對我們臺灣選舉的介入是非常明顯而且威脅非常大，選制的改革不可以忽視這一點，這一點也請大家能夠諒解。"],["丁委員學忠：其實大家都知道，如果要在中國實施不在籍投票是絕對不可能的、絕對不可能。"],["李主任委員進勇：不只是大家現在所說的，在他們那邊比如說境外移轉投票等等，不只是這個東西……"],["丁委員學忠：我們也可以考慮一些別的國家的台商，我們可以加以考慮，我相信若提到中國，那是絕對不可能的，他們本身也不可能配合我們這個制度，自己本身也不可能，現在大部分的國家都有不在籍投票，所以有很多委員已經有提出修法，讓公職人員和總統選舉增加不在籍投票的各種的方式，雖然大多數的國家都已經有實施不在籍投票，我相信我們沒有理由做不到，雖然選罷法的主管是內政部，不是中選會，但中選會是專門選舉的單位，還是請主委就選舉的業務，針對一般選舉使用不在籍投票的意見可以大概說明一下嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們和內政部之間，不時都有針對有關的議題進行討論。所以有關選務機關的意見，我們會忠實地反映給內政部讓他們作為研議的參考。"],["丁委員學忠：好，今天主委你辛苦了。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["丁委員學忠：謝謝，感謝你。"],["主席（王委員美惠代）：謝謝丁學忠委員。","請吳琪銘召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-5","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","黃建賓","王美惠","徐欣瑩","黃捷","高金素梅","丁學忠","鄭天財Sra 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過了17年再上一屆看一下2020年的立委選舉我們全台灣3地原住民的投票所有10557個"},{"start":307.637,"end":315.646,"text":"然後在這個當中有3個人之內的投票所有4166間 佔了39.5%然後有29間投票率是0的 佔了22.2%你知道為什麼會這麼低嗎 第一個3個人之內的他會被覺得他會被迫亮票"},{"start":332.043,"end":348.077,"text":"926間是零的因為他不願意去投票因為他也覺得他會被人家看到他投票的取向所以就是說有這麼多我們的山地原住民的族人跟平地原住民族人因為制度沒有做好而讓他們剝奪了投票的權利你覺得這該不該解決處理"},{"start":350.539,"end":362.973,"text":"當然這個投票秘密是非常重要的一個選舉的要件那我們也努力的希望能夠消弭這樣子的情況沒有努力啊 到現在還沒有改變啊我們看一下數據2020年總統投票率是74.9%而3D原住民的投票率68.6%比總統低了6.3%"},{"start":370.521,"end":374.104,"text":"平地原住民投票率62.3%比總統投票率低了12.6%再來看一下這次2024的投票率總統的投票率是71.86%3地原住民投票率是60.32%比總統投票率低了7.54%"},{"start":387.975,"end":412.534,"text":"平地原住民投票率58.25%比總統的投票率低的是13.61%你看到了嗎不管是山地平地我們的投票率都那麼低欸 主委17年來都沒有改變這個問題第一個是秘密投票的問題第二個是投票率低的問題請問要怎麼解決處理我跟委員報告這個就是要維持要保障這個投票秘密在原住民的部分的確是有一些技術上的問題要克服"},{"start":414.235,"end":414.636,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":431.398,"end":451.484,"text":"我知道你會這麼回答我主委我在這邊提醒你你們這是非常消極的作為中選會就必須要來處理解決任務這是身為一個公務人員政府應該做的事情好不好接著下來這個問題一個月之內也提你們的這個解決方案給我另外另外另外另外另外你們沒有努力對不起"},{"start":454.245,"end":474.614,"text":"我們看到110年包含主委有6名中選會的委員你們上任的時候針對不在籍投票你們多數是採正面的看法看一下這個都有公報上被記錄的你們是採正面的看法只是策略上你們希望是要主播施行是不是這樣子是的"},{"start":475.354,"end":489.611,"text":"我告訴你我反對逐步施行台灣數位科技的廠商的能耐兩年之內的時間他可以做到全面的來實施所以不要再用逐步的腳步來解決這個問題來回應立法院的當然我們也會已經提案了"},{"start":494.256,"end":494.817,"text":"一個月之內提出有效的做法"},{"start":515.773,"end":540.35,"text":"提出他的問題點提出他有效的解決方案一個月之內給我提出這兩份報告如果您願意的話我也歡迎您到本辦公室來我們好好做交流不能夠一直以來對於原住民的投票權益還有投票低落的情形還有秘密投票的問題以及我們說選務不落實的問題"},{"start":541.17,"end":541.791,"text":"高金素梅主委"}]}},{"id":"149650","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149650","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300b53fa3f0c5185b4aaf4279b9ad9aebfdf8ba9b0039caa7a63339572f347eb8855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:24:18 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楊瓊瓔發言首先想邀請局長待會討論得到的議題如果有相關的也自動上台好嗎謝謝你蔡局長謝謝主席 楊瓊瓔早我們的國防部長邱部長在上週質詢的時候他表示以往認定的中共的第一級是指開槍"},{"start":29.594,"end":46.687,"text":"開炮但是國軍我們已經改變了第一級的這個界定那只要共軍實體航空器或者是海航實體預約的界限那我們國軍我們就認為是第一級將予以反制"},{"start":47.347,"end":66.108,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下甚至部長說他憂心的都睡不著那本席要在這邊請教局長面對的兩岸的情勢的一個嚴峻那我們國安局你如何的應對那對於第一級的認定他已經是改變這個定義那可能"},{"start":66.989,"end":67.109,"text":"好,謝謝委員"},{"start":82.718,"end":104.066,"text":"就整個部隊的指揮權來講主要是由三軍統帥下達指令給國防部部長再下達到我們的三軍部隊那剛剛委員所提到的在什麼時機點來所謂對於入侵的這些敵方的這些海空實體來進行因應的話這也是根據到聯合國的憲章還有國際法規定這是一種自我防衛權的展現"},{"start":105.146,"end":123.934,"text":"那至於使用自我防衛權的時機點還有它的標準的應處程序是什麼那這部分我們必須要尊重國防部相關的專業的判斷以及他們的預應的方案那另外一部分是在國安局的部分怎麼樣來應處這樣的一個局勢那早上也跟其他委員跟媒體朋友稍微說明跟報告到"},{"start":124.514,"end":139.94,"text":"楊瓊瓊議員"},{"start":140.14,"end":167.53,"text":"透過各種的情監針的手法包括電針、雷情、衛照等方式來瞭解他活動的一個狀況那而且這部分也跟國際的友盟都有在交換情資來判斷中國會不會在這個階段來新興的意圖跟相關的動作那目前我們沒有看到台海戰士一觸即發的相關的情資但後續我們會持續的密註有任何的違常狀況我們都會依照我們預應的方案來處理避免情勢升高維持情勢的穩定這部分可以請委員放心"},{"start":168.781,"end":197.47,"text":"願意給這麼多的時間請您來說明也就是希望讓我們的民眾都能夠更加的瞭解讓他們能夠更安心因為聽到部長說他都煩惱的睡不著憂心這是一個負責任的態度這是一個負責任態度當然政府橫向的聯繫尤其是你們的體系更當是緊密的這個聯繫那當然剛才你說到請大家放心沒有一處"},{"start":199.39,"end":226.803,"text":"極發的這個問題但是我們還是要小心當一個定義他已經改變的時候是否他的動作有怎麼樣的一個不一樣這是人民會恐慌的一點所以必須要繼續加油那以往的政府曾經有說過如果台海兩岸這個有緊張的狀況有了十幾套的這個配套這個方案那你們是不是有多少套"},{"start":227.603,"end":229.263,"text":"所以換句話說,你的因應方案是好幾套"},{"start":259.552,"end":282.744,"text":"繼續我們要討論國內外的媒體跟學者分析那今年的美國總統大選應該是由現任的拜登對上了那前任的總統川普在這樣的情況之下請教局長大家對於這一戰是非常的這個關注請教局長我們有持續掌控相關的情報因為"},{"start":283.925,"end":310.154,"text":"美國大選的一個情勢兩黨對於我們跟對大陸尤其是對大陸他們的政策是否有所調整那對於我們我們的友台政策是不是會延續當然我們也非常的感謝美國以及很多的國際友人對我們的支持但是有時候擦槍走火我們也沒有想到國際上目前是這麼樣的"},{"start":311.394,"end":311.914,"text":"併請國防部副部長：楊瓊瓔"},{"start":333.114,"end":335.556,"text":"大選的部分我簡單說明目前的選舉的狀況我不做細部的評論因為我們中澳民國政府不適合評論外國的選舉我只是把目前的選情"},{"start":356.297,"end":377.183,"text":"根據狀態跟委員報告那目前我們的判斷應該川普跟拜登很有機會可以各自獲得自己黨內的提名因為就民主黨來講他的黨代表的票要一千九百多票拜登已經拿了一千八百多票共和黨的部分川普要拿一千兩百多票他已經拿了一千多票所以本集說了這兩位應當是可以篤定是兩個候選人對被提名的機會非常非常的大"},{"start":383.305,"end":402.239,"text":"因為當然還有進入到6月跟7月他們的黨代表大會才會做最後的決定那在那之前我們判斷被提名的機會很高這是第一點那第二點是針對兩位總統候選人他們的外交的政策還有對中對台的政策那請跟委員報告一下他們路線不太一樣在外交政策上"},{"start":402.939,"end":421.276,"text":"川普比較重視的是單邊主義拜登比較重視的是多邊主義這是他們主要的差別的地方但是在對中政策上因為現在美國整體的政治氣氛都把中共視為是一個戰略的競爭對手這幾乎是兩者都同步對兩者同步行政跟立法部門還有兩大黨"},{"start":422.877,"end":441.461,"text":"對那對台灣的支持也是越來越支持這包括國會通過的相關的法案然後兩位總統包括川普總統任內也宣布了超過10項的對台的軍售案包括有MQ-9的一個無人機也包括了有海馬子的這是以往所以剛剛本學提出了那以巴戰爭、俄烏戰爭他們投入了這麼多的資源會不會影響到我們的軍援、我們的軍售"},{"start":450.356,"end":477.041,"text":"在我們掌握的資訊裡面他們現在重點還是在印太區域的安全他們認為是重中之重甚至確實也像委員所提到的有些共和黨相關的國會議員他們就認為在所謂的中東或烏克蘭投出太多資源的話會影響到在印太地區對於中國的制衡所以各種聲音都有那後續我們會注意到他們在大選辯論的一個政策的走向"},{"start":477.581,"end":506.489,"text":"這個就是本席之所以願意給你這麼多時間給四位大眾說明也就是最後這一句話必須要持續去追蹤之因為變化非常的大我們希望臺灣人民我們中華民國只希望能夠安全只希望能夠安全民眾要的就是如此這一點是非常重要所以本席希望要持續的去掌握那最後一個議題本席請教520即將上任的"},{"start":507.469,"end":522.097,"text":"新政府要上任,那過去呢這個當選人賴清德先生也說了這個準總統說了他表示會將這個留任國安團隊的這個成員那請問局長您在520之後你會繼續擔任局長嗎?"},{"start":527.593,"end":544.858,"text":"這部分剛剛在會議之前媒體也有關心我大概簡單跟委員說明一下在520之前我們就做好我們現在每一天的工作但520之後要尊重新總統的人事佈局那我就現任的一個官員的身份我不適合去評論新總統相關的一個規劃不適合評論跟議策如果不當國安局長你也可能會轉為外交部長請問這是你人生的規劃當中嗎"},{"start":553.86,"end":556.844,"text":"我們不適合做評論跟臆測﹖是不是你人生的規劃當中呢?不適合評論跟臆測﹖"},{"start":559.827,"end":583.23,"text":"所以本期也希望因為在這個兩岸情勢持續的緊張之下新政府上台之後國安整個的策略是否會有怎麼樣的調整這是人民非常非常的關心所以我們也希望能夠讓我們的臺灣能夠安全國家能夠安全這是我們非常重要的一個對人民的一個"},{"start":584.631,"end":585.872,"text":"你到目前為止有沒有得到什麼諮詢?"},{"start":605.196,"end":605.797,"text":"本期是請教職務的一個調整有得到什麼樣的質詢嗎?"}]}},{"id":"149649","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149649","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300363f7303845d83b01cfe294bc3fbc1e0f8ba9b0039caa7a6b4a4c75fd7d343585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:22:47 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10:33:33","影片長度":"00:10:46","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部列席就「國家運動科學中心如何協助運動選手，提升參加國際競賽成績之具體作為。」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":646,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:33:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:22:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":615,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（10時22分）主席，謝謝。有請次長還有運科中心執行長。"],["主席：請林次長跟黃執行長。"],["林次長騰蛟：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：次長好、執行長好。剛剛有許多立法委員也都非常關心這個議題，我就不再糾結太久，但我還是要唸一下。運科中心112年9月16日成立到現在，就我所知道，我覺得是半年，當然你說1月1號開始運作，點開運科中心的首頁，有三個類別，運動醫學研究、運動科學研究、資訊科技開發，這三個研究是掛零，頁面寫著「建置中，敬請期待」，公開資訊欄除了法規以外，全數也掛零，計畫、決算、預算、採購作業的實施規章都沒有！我想這個部分也是「敬請期待」。剛剛你有提到3月底會完成，執行長，是嗎？"],["黃執行長啟煌：是的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：目前就我所知道，整個單位都寫著「敬請期待」，只有執行長的介紹是最為清楚，國人應該有必要知道整個運科中心未來的規劃，這個部分麻煩你一定要加緊腳步，我還是要稍微跟你提醒一下。"],["黃執行長啟煌：是的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：再來，請問次長，你有玩過手機遊戲、電腦遊戲嗎？"],["林次長騰蛟：跟委員報告，年輕的時候有，不過現在大概……"],["羅委員廷瑋：可以分享一下年輕時大概玩什麼嗎？"],["林次長騰蛟：我玩磚塊掉下來那個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：什麼！俄羅斯方塊！"],["林次長騰蛟：從此以後我就不玩了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：哇！對不起，您的年輕與我們的年輕差距有一段的距離，這一段可能是一個龐大的距離。我問你這一題，你就大概知道我要問什麼了，我今天要跟你討論的就是電競的議題。我自己有承諾過電競相關的部分，不管是選手或是團隊，我要作為電競選手最大的靠山，作為一個電競立委。2017年11月7號立法院三讀通過運動產業發展條例的部分條文，將電子競技業納入運動產業，電子選手比照運動項目享有國家的選拔、培訓、賽事、國光獎章等資源，也就是電競終於被正名。但是7年過去了，我們可以看到臺灣電競產業的發展卻止步不前。","陳建仁院長去年10月13日在臺灣代表隊杭州亞運的返國餐會上對選手說：選手，不用擔心，我們政府做你的後盾。113年度體育署預算137.65億，加上110年底修法通過運動產業發展條例第二十六條之二，擴大企業的捐贈誘因，我們有30億元，整個總額突破將近160億。我想整個預算的增加、持續優化訓練環境、後勤的資源等，這些都是當時陳院長所提出的，但是今年，就在今年2月27日卻傳出了電競選手獨自帶著300美元征戰卡普空盃「快打旋風6」這樣一個心酸的故事，最後這個選手奪冠了，電競協會在第一時間發文道賀，卻被當時的網友酸說，沒有資助選手出國比賽，人家得冠軍才來蹭熱度。","我想要去還原事實真相，我想電競協會也有一些苦衷，但是先請問次長，中華民國電子競技協會說自己是教育部體育署與中華奧委會指定電競事務委辦單位，現由教育部體育署輔導，為教育部體育署全民運動組內具有國際窗口之非亞運運動團體。是否屬實？"],["林次長騰蛟：跟委員報告，這個部分確實是事實。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，是事實。教育部有沒有統計過電競協會領教育部多少補助？"],["林次長騰蛟：電競協會的部分……"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，沒關係，我來補充，因為我沒有要考試啦！我大概跟你說一下，電競協會110年到112年共拿了一千多萬，一年三百多萬而已，「而已」！先不論補助是多是少，現在大家在乎的是，我們都以為政府會把電競放在長遠的目標來規劃，我們來討論、探討，並且把它們納入我們最重要要發展的一個項目。因為講真的，臺灣電競在國人的印象當中，在亞洲國家，我們的電競感覺起來算是滿有規模的，因為我們的選手帶了很多獎項回來，我們的起步算很早，當時我們跟中國還有韓國是平起平坐，但因為我們沒有任何的準備，現在人家已經超越我們了。我看到韓國、中國、日本等各個亞洲國家，當時我們的電競選手讓國人感到非常非常與有榮焉，為什麼？因為當時很多的世界比賽，我們有得獎啊！到底現在問題是怎麼樣？我看到四個困境，第一、政府機關缺少專業人才，第二、我們沒有電競的專門機構，第三、補助的資源分配不均，電競的專才一直在流失，政府機關缺少專業人才，就是沒有人懂電競嘛！","對不起，次長，剛剛詢問您有沒有玩過遊戲，當然我以為你會說沒有，但是您的回答跟沒有其實差不多，這不怪罪你！玩俄羅斯方塊跟現在真的是差距非常的大。公務人員多少懂一些的話，他就可以具體的去瞭解怎麼解決這個問題，但是我看到現在電競產業就是複製、貼上，我們把籃球、棒球做過的事情，成立協會、給補助等複製、貼上，得過且過嘛！再來，電競產業不像韓國有一個專門的機構，那個專門的機構當時有去找比賽來做，例如WCG世界電玩大賽，臺灣以前有，叫做臺灣電子競技聯盟，他們會去找比賽來做，但現在不太一樣喔！現在是遊戲廠商希望透過電子競技比賽來拉抬它的遊戲，所以他們會願意撥預算去找一個執行單位來主導。我想廠商想做事，那些廠商就會撥預算；廠商如果沒做，我們這些執行單位也沒事，我想入法了、證明了，然後呢？礙於法規上的限制，每年國際電競大賽，政府沒有補助，協會也沒辦法做什麼，終究選手還是得靠自己。","次長，不知道我這樣講完，你有沒有發現政府在這個產業鏈當中，完全沒有一個重要的角色來擔當，真正能夠補助到這些電競選手上面的我覺得真的很少，我想資源分配，體育署一年預算160億元，現在補助在電競上千分之一不到，這個部分都是我們現在看到的困境。次長，我已經講了這麼多，國人就現在來說，我們自己很期待棒球、籃球、跆拳道、舉重、羽毛球，我想電競也會是選項之一，但是我們連基本的日常訓練、出國參賽的機票都出不了、補助不了國手，我們應該好好的考慮是不是能夠思考我們有一個電競賽事的專門機構，根據臺灣及國際專注的電競項目去補助選手，幫助選手日常的訓練，提供他們能夠出國比賽的經費。另外，更重要的是我們沒有看到一個專業的場地能夠讓他們有機會去做培訓，看到人才的流失，直接找不到這樣子的機會，整個電競產業的結構，我們應該要把前端先做好，才不會得到了一個電競冠軍人才，結果呢？這個人才後面的規劃，我們沒辦法想像。次長，你認為政府還能夠給予什麼樣的協助？成立專責機構可行嗎？"],["林次長騰蛟：跟委員報告一下，電子競技大概包含了從去年的亞運，還有巴黎奧運也列為競賽的項目，所以我們也輔導我們的協會在人手的選拔，以及參賽所需要相關一些培訓跟所需經費，這個部分我們大概都會來協助跟幫忙。至於剛剛提到的電子競技協會，因為去年有一些狀況，也是在大院的要求之下，對於經費的部分，我們有酌減給予相關的經費，不過我想針對選手參賽的部分所需要的相關經費，基本上我們會來協助跟幫忙。至於剛剛委員提到的，雖然運動產業發展條例有訂定，這裡面也涉及到相關的運動產業，針對電子競技的部分是由教育部跟包含經濟部，因為產業的部分主要是在經濟部，後來當然數發部也成立了，在產業部分的發展，可能是屬於經濟部跟數位發展部的權責，這個部分我們也會會同相關部會就有關成立專法來進行相關的研議。"],["羅委員廷瑋：最後我還是想說，國際奧林匹克委員會已經指示電競委員會要展開研究舉辦電競奧運的可能性，我想國家訓練中心在電子競技當中，我沒有看到一個培訓的場館，這也是我們希望的，不管是培訓場館或者是加以補助，不只是用在協會上的補助，對於電競選手能夠直接的關心，這也是我們寄予重望，未來更希望我們的電競能夠打敗韓國、打敗中國，這是我們未來的展望，希望你可以加油，謝謝。"],["林次長騰蛟：是，好，謝謝羅委員，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員。","我們再來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":280,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","萬美玲","葉元之","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","范雲","羅美玲","牛煦庭","吳春城","徐巧芯","黃國昌","柯志恩","林倩綺","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":219,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部列席就「國家運動科學中心如何協助運動選手，提升參加國際競賽成績之具體作\n為。」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.93284375,"end":7.3209687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.637218750000002,"end":12.754718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.26096875,"end":15.758468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.93971875,"end":17.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.17159375,"end":65.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.24846875,"end":87.86534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.76409375,"end":88.27034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.20284375,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.16034375000001,"end":90.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.07159375,"end":93.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.90659375,"end":97.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","star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早當時跟我們中國還有韓國是平起平坐"},{"start":320.931,"end":345.514,"text":"我想我們沒有任何的準備現在人家已經超越我們了我想我看到我們韓國中國日本各個亞洲國家當時我們的這個電競選手是感覺到讓國人非常非常的羽與龍焉為什麼因為當時很多的世界比賽我們有得獎啊"},{"start":346.618,"end":365.324,"text":"我想到底現在問題到底怎麼樣我看到四個困境第一政府機關缺少專業人才第二我們沒有電競的專門機構第三補助的資源分配不均電競的專才一直在流失政府機關缺少專業人才就是沒有人懂電競嘛"},{"start":366.724,"end":391.316,"text":"對不起,市長剛剛詢問您有沒有玩過遊戲當然我以為你會說沒有啦但是您的回答跟沒有其實差不多這不怪罪你玩俄羅斯方塊跟現在真的是差距非常的大我想公務人員多少懂一些的話他就可以具體的去了解怎麼解決這個問題但是我看到電競產業就現在就是複製貼上我們把籃球棒球做過的事情成立協會給補助複製貼上得過且過嘛"},{"start":394.477,"end":423.318,"text":"再來電競產業不像韓國有一個專門的機構那個專門的機構他們當時有去找比賽來做例如WCG世界電玩大賽台灣以前有叫做台灣電子競技聯盟他們會去找比賽來做但現在不太一樣喔現在是遊戲廠商希望透過電子競技比賽來拉抬他的遊戲他們會願意撥預算去找一個執行單位來主導我想廠商想做的是"},{"start":424.099,"end":450.713,"text":"那些廠商就會撥預算 廠商如果沒做我們這些執行單位也沒事我想入法了 證明了 然後呢 礙於法規上的一個限制每年國際電競大賽政府沒有補助 協會也沒辦法做什麼 終究選手還是得靠自己市長 不知道我這樣講完你有沒有發現政府在這個產業鏈當中 完全沒有一個重要的角色來擔當我想 真正能夠補助到這些電競"},{"start":452.576,"end":462.083,"text":"選手上面的我覺得真的很少我想支援分配體育署一年的預算160億元現在補助在電競上千分之一不到"},{"start":463.764,"end":488.598,"text":"這個部分都是我們現在看到的困境市長我已經講了這麼多我真的很期待國人就現在來說我們自己很期待棒球籃球跆拳道舉重羽毛球我想電競也會是一個選項之一但是我們連基本的日常訓練出國參賽機票都出不了補助不了他們的國手"},{"start":489.238,"end":511.444,"text":"我想我們應該好好的考慮是不是能夠思考我們有一個電競賽事的專門機構根據台灣及國際專注的電競項目去補助選手幫助選手日常的訓練提供他們能夠去做出國比賽的經費另外更重要是我們沒有看到一個專業的場地能夠讓他們有這個機會去做培訓"},{"start":514.625,"end":535.247,"text":"我們看到人才的流失直接找不到這樣子的一個機會整個電競產業的結構我們應該要先把前端先做好才不會說我們得到了一個電競冠軍的人才結果呢這個人才後面的規劃我們沒辦法想像次長你認為在政府上還能夠給予什麼樣的協助成立專責機構可行嗎"},{"start":538.079,"end":559.428,"text":"跟委員報告一下那個電子競技大概包含了從那個去年的亞運還有巴黎奧運的部分也列為這個競賽的一個項目所以我們也輔導我們的這個這個協會在選人手的選拔以及參賽所需要的相關的一些的培訓跟所需的經費的部分這個部分我們大概都會來協助跟幫忙"},{"start":560.588,"end":585.488,"text":"至於剛剛提到的那個電子競技協會因為去年它有一些的狀況也是在大院的這個要求之下那對於經費的部分我們是有給予這個佐檢的這個相關的一個經費不過我想針對選手的參賽的部分所需要的相關經費基本上我們會來這個協助跟幫忙那至於剛剛委員提到的因為在雖然那個運動產業發展條例那訂定那這裡面也涉及到相關的運動產業那針對電子競技的部分的話"},{"start":589.231,"end":613.266,"text":"我是由教育部跟包含的經濟部,產業的部分主要是在經濟部,後來當然樹花部也成立了。我想在產業的這個部分的發展,可能這個部分是屬於經濟部跟數位發展部的一個權責。這個部分在產業發展的部分,我們也會同相關部會的部分,就有關成立專法的部分來進行相關的研議。"},{"start":613.626,"end":638.139,"text":"所以我還是想說國際奧林匹克委員會已經指示了電競委員會要展開研究要舉辦電競奧運的可能性我想國家訓練中心在電子競技當中我們有看到一個培訓的場館這也是我們希望的不管是培訓場館或者是家喻補助不只是用在協會上的補助對於電競選手能夠直接的關心這也是我們寄予重望未來我們更希望我們的電競能夠打敗韓國打敗中國"},{"start":640.741,"end":642.531,"text":"這是我們未來的展望。我們希望你可以加油。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149648","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149648","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300baac96c787887e957e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a6182b5bed1764569a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"10:20:47 - 10:30:26","影片長度":"00:09:39","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":579,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:30:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:20:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":610,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（10時20分）謝謝主席。我們請主委。"],["主席：好，請主委，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：主委好。剛剛俊憲委員提到的OTT，正好我要求很多年的MSO，就是OTT、MSO、MOD現在算是三分天下，而OTT一直在成長……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：欸！不到三分天下啦！還是Cable TV最大。"],["許委員智傑：對啦！往三分天下的方向，就是三大龍頭啦！OTT現在取向已經越來越多，MSO則是越來越少，但是你看它……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：數目沒有減少，但訂戶在減少。"],["許委員智傑：對啊！現在剩下451萬戶嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，對。"],["許委員智傑：從2018年的510萬戶，到現在2023年的451萬戶，每一年都減少十幾萬，從這個速度來看，它還會再繼續減少，未來對MSO，到底NCC應該怎麼去看待他們？是放它順其自然，放水流嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是，不是放水流。"],["許委員智傑：不是放水流？我們一直要求頻道區塊化，要讓它的收視品質提高，記得4年前、3年多前主委剛就任的時候，我一個一個問了所有的NCC委員，每個人都贊成，到現在3年半了，還是一事無成。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：區塊化還是有在做，而且區塊本來就存在，委員可以去看Cable TV，大家最在乎的當然是新聞頻道，所以區塊化還是存在，只是說在大區塊以外，還有沒有小區塊的這個問題。"],["許委員智傑：對啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以區塊化還是存在的，法令規定都還是有，包括最近的Disney Plus在Cable TV下架，這部分我們在考慮的時候都還是……"],["許委員智傑：就是因為它一直在decay，所以人家才要下架。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，沒有，因為產業……"],["許委員智傑：划不來嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：產業模式的改變。"],["許委員智傑：對嘛！就是因為現在產業模式改變，MSO一直在decay，他們想一想，乾脆包袱收好趕快走啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那個是整個亞洲市場、全球市場模式的改變。"],["許委員智傑：所以我就講，現在我們一直要求的區塊化，什麼時候可以完成？全部可以什麼時候完成？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員非常關心這個議題，那時候我們也有做過相關研究，但是因需要投入的資本真的太龐大，所以MSO這部分來講，他們的意願就很……所以當時我們也有跟委員報告，如果有哪些區塊的需求，透過所謂遙控器的方法也是一種方法，就是讓消費者可以簡單地看到他想看到的區塊內容。"],["許委員智傑：那遙控器是要買還是要送？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：為了推廣區塊化，如果遙控器可以，我們就儘量請業者看能不能用送的方法處理這個議題。"],["許委員智傑：總是要有時間給我們嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有，有，基本上來講，我記得當時……"],["許委員智傑：有關區塊化部分，現在更新機上盒的情況大概剩下655萬臺，去年我記得你們給我的數據大概是800萬臺，你看一年多就差100多萬臺。而且這部分業者自己也會換，因為有一些機上盒的軟體要更新，無法更新機上盒的，現在是589萬臺，NCC補助和業者自行更換的有80萬臺，所以這其實都有在動，只是說照這個速度動，可能還要動個8年到10年，現在你說替代方案是用遙控器就可以替代，到底效果好不好？到底現在量有多少？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上來講，如果這個可行，我們當時研究這是一個可行的方向，是可以全面性來做，就是看要不要實施的問題。"],["許委員智傑：總要讓我們知道進度啊！規劃跟進度如何？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告，這個部分除了Cable TV以外，因為還涉及到頻道商的商業利益問題，相關進程我們也是希望可以儘快。就是說因應Cable TV整個剪線潮的出現，當然那個速度是越來越加快，所以針對Cable TV，有線電視系統經營業者除了自己本身另外提供像寬頻上網服務以外，也跟OTT業者進行合作，所以將來這個機上盒的用途就會越來越豐富。"],["許委員智傑：是不是可以請主委給我一份報告？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，是。"],["許委員智傑：就我剛才要求的區塊化部分，我們的規劃跟進度如何？當然，主委剛剛提到他們跟OTT業者合作，他們打算怎麼合作？未來雖然MSO訂戶已經越來越少，但是還有450萬戶的權益，我們還是要顧……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然，當然。"],["許委員智傑：這個部分希望主委一起思考，一個月內給我一個報告，OK嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：可以。"],["許委員智傑：給我們一份報告，包括MSO、MOD及OTT他們未來的研究發展方向，如何在這三大龍頭，不是電信三大龍頭，是電視三大龍頭，這三大龍頭將來能夠怎麼樣競合？或是我們要分別跟各自的收視群解釋你們的權利跟義務在哪裡、如何確保你們收視的品質，這個都是我們NCC要去思考的吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["許委員智傑：是不是請主委一併思考，1個月內給我一份報告？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好。"],["許委員智傑：第二個問題，弱勢族群我也曾經提過，這一部分也謝謝NCC有暖心方案，就是照顧中低收入跟年長者，這個暖心方案是很好，我也跟主委提過暖心方案如果能夠再加上防詐的話，這個效果會更好，因為正好弱勢族群跟老人也是被人家騙的最佳對象、最容易受騙的對象。這個部分我們來看電話的詐騙，以老人、長輩來講，現在中華電信防駭守門員是針對網路，但如果是長輩，基本上他受到網路詐騙的機會會比受到電話詐騙的機會還要小，所以我覺得先從電話詐騙優先處理，主委上一次也跟我說好，那現在的進度如何？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：電話部分來講，不管是攔阻也好或者警示也好，我們基本上都已經上路了、現在都在進行當中，從整個三大電信業者的國際話務量也好，或者所謂這些不明來電比例的快速下降，就可以看得出來我們這些攔阻或是警示的作用已經出來了。"],["許委員智傑：我現在拿這個……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然委員剛才所關心的我們也非常贊成，就是我們越多管道、越多面向讓這些長者都可以接受這些相關的訊息，讓他們注意到防詐的部分，這我們也會請業者大家共同努力。"],["許委員智傑：最後我再要求一下，你看台灣大哥大反詐戰警個人版，它有針對我講的暖心方案都不收費，這個就很具體，這個要謝謝它們。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["許委員智傑：然後遠傳還是要收50塊，對於老人、長輩、弱勢族群可不可以比照台灣大哥大辦理？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們來協調電信業者朝這個方向去。"],["許委員智傑：還有中華電信這麼大間的電信公司，提供電話防詐有問題嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們來協調中華電信要保護這些高齡長者。"],["許委員智傑：就是這三大龍頭、電信三大龍頭，我希望既然我們有暖心方案照顧低收入戶跟老人，他們最容易受騙我們是不是也一起去保護他們？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["許委員智傑：這個進度什麼時候給我？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們給委員報告的時候再跟委員一併說明，好不好？"],["許委員智傑：好，那一個禮拜跟我講一下。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：可不可以再給我們稍微長一點時間，因為這個我們要跟電信業者協調一下。"],["許委員智傑：好，兩個禮拜。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，兩個禮拜。"],["許委員智傑：給我它們的這個進度，總是要有進度，不然大家說了都不做。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：OK。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝台灣大哥大有做，我們也給它鼓勵一下。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["許委員智傑：好，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑委員。","休息10分鐘。","休息（10時30分）","繼續開會（10時40分）"],["主席：好，開會。","現在處理臨時提案，本日計有7個案，請議事人員一併宣讀。","一、","有鑑於鏡電視執照申請取得及後續弊案，不斷有執政黨高層黑手介入之爭議，因陳耀祥主任委員不斷護航，以致相關爭議迄今無法解決。目前鏡電視執照雖然已核准，但相關違法爭議雪球仍越滾越大。","陳耀祥身為國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員，本應秉持專業負責態度面對國會監督，但卻仗著執政黨護航，在國會質詢中，多次迴避問題。國家通訊傳播委員會清楚違法之事實與態樣，但卻一再地以「調查中」、「改正即可」等等之言語護航，一拖再拖，除了藐視國會，更踐踏法治國原則。","國家通訊傳播委員會作為主管機關，針對相關違法爭議裝聾作啞，嚴重失職。透過全面慎重的調查，才能還原事件真相。為有效監督已失靈、失職的國家通訊傳播委員會，並釐清鏡電視申設及後續弊案爭議相關責任，茲依《立法院職權行使法》第45條之規定，特提案成立「鏡電視申設及後續弊案爭議」調閱專案小組，履行本院委員監督之職責。","提案人：林國成　　陳雪生　　林沛祥　　廖先翔　　邱若華　　黃健豪","二、","經審閱國家通訊傳播委員會（下稱通傳會）提交之113年度業務報告，在整份29頁之業務報告1萬3千字的內容，竟有超過9,300字以上是「完全照抄」去（112）年的舊內容。少數更新的部分，幾乎是通傳會官員出國考察行程。","通傳會此行為不僅藐視國會，無視行政機關對立法院負責的憲法義務，更是對立法權的毫不尊重，透露出對於人民的怠慢與不負責任。","為監督及糾正我國媒體獨立監理機關的專業與責任，爰提案強烈譴責通傳會主任委員陳耀祥，要求通傳會撤回所提交至本委員會之業務報告，並於一周內重新撰寫一份真正反映過去一年內工作成果、符合通訊傳播監理機關專業標準及展現未來規劃之詳盡報告，以重建公眾及立法機關對通傳會的信任與期待。","是否有當？敬請　公決。","提案人：林國成　　黃健豪　　林沛祥　　廖先翔　　邱若華　　陳雪生","三、","茲因NCC法律訴訟案件大量增加，且因敗訴後持續上訴造成訴訟費用暴漲情形。敬請NCC針對裁罰案件內容及理由，尊重諮詢委員意見，並且對於有確定判決案件聲請再審之必要性進行重新檢討，並於兩周內提出檢討報告。","提案人：徐巧芯　　黃健豪　　邱若華　　林沛祥","四、","茲因鏡電視申設新聞台時，曾承諾不會製作談話性政論節目，卻在2024總統大選之前，開設「大選鏡來講─2024選戰論壇」，明顯違規行為，NCC卻僅給予警告並無罰款，是否有違公平原則，及罰則太輕等情事，請於兩周內提出相關報告說明。","提案人：徐巧芯　　黃健豪　　邱若華　　林沛祥","五、","茲因三立集團違規入股中嘉案，有兩位NCC委員曾提出應對上層的泓順公司究責，並應重新考慮三立電視，包括中嘉申請移頻三立財經新聞台、以及三立新聞台、三立財經新聞台換照、評鑑案等。且NCC應思考修法可能，對預防市場不公平競爭及防止破壞市場秩序之附款，應有規範業者落實附負擔之法律工具，以避免類似情形再次發生。敬請NCC針對兩位委員之意見，兩周內提出修法相關方向及上述案件檢討。","提案人：徐巧芯　　黃健豪　　邱若華　　林沛祥","六、","有鑑於廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行過程，引起重大爭議，此案攸關言論自由，國人高度關注，交通委員會特邀請國家通訊傳播委員會（NCC）主委陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行過程」進行專題報告，針對相關爭議處理程序提出詳細說明，以釋群疑。","茲因中天電視台不服主管機關裁罰，提起訴訟業已連15次勝訴，NCC連15次敗訴，交通委員會特要求陳耀祥主委針對廣電事業申設換照程序及執行狀況提出說明，檢視NCC提供的報告，只有審查程序，執行狀況卻付之闕如，通篇報告非常空泛，僅將法條抄抄寫寫，極盡敷衍，全然無視行政對立法負責，立法監督行政的憲政分際，難道113年7月新內閣成立陳耀祥主委恐無法續任，所以也不必再甩立法院？一個不受監督的行政官員，對人民權益福祉必造成傷害，實非國家之福。","爰此，建請交通委員會做成決議：「針對國家通訊傳播委員會（NCC）主委陳耀祥踐踏民主監督機制，敗壞官德官箴，嚴重藐視國會之行徑，莫此為甚，應予嚴厲譴責。」","提案人：魯明哲　　傅崐萁　　洪孟楷　　林沛祥　　廖先翔　　黃健豪　　林國成　　邱若華　　陳雪生","七、","有鑒於媒體報導現任府院高層疑似涉及施壓國家通訊傳播委員會（以下簡稱：通傳會）不當放行鏡電視新聞台取得申設執照，現任通傳會主委陳耀祥被揭露接受府院關說，圖利鏡電視；另前行政院長蘇貞昌居然公開表示不必查，隔空指揮辦案，已成國際級醜聞。對照之前中天新聞台換照案，預設立場「先射箭再畫靶」針對性的處理過程，通傳會嚴重雙標、毫不遮掩，同時通傳會在陳耀祥主導下利用職權配合當權者打壓異己並介入媒體經營運作，通傳會之獨立性及社會公信力蕩然無存。","為保障新聞台的申設及經營不受政府的不當介入，還給媒體第四權獨立運作的空間，同時基於立法權監督行政權之權力分立原則及《立法院職權行使法》第四十五條之法律授權，釐清國家通訊傳播委員會執行「鏡電視新聞台申設、審照、換照及營運等相關監理事項」決策過程的真相，建請委員會做成決議：針對國家通訊傳播委員會近年審查「鏡電視申設、審照及換照過程、外力介入情況、附加條件等有無涉及不法？」成立調閱專案小組，要求有關機關就特定議案涉及事項提供參考資料，以落實國會監督。是否有當？請公決案。","提案人：魯明哲　　傅崐萁　　洪孟楷　　林沛祥　　廖先翔　　黃健豪　　林國成　　邱若華　　陳雪生"],["主席：好，一共7個案，第1案跟第7案內容是一樣的，第1案併第7案來處理，第1案跟第7案合併處理。","我們討論第2案，第2案各位委員有沒有意見？第2案林國成委員有修正，在第二段的部分「通傳會此行為不僅藐視國會……」這一段通通除掉改為「建議刪除，本會沒有藐視國會的本意」……，這誰的意見嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這是我們的意見。"],["主席：你們的意見，你們改啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，我們建議這樣子改。"],["主席：那你上來補充一下，來。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告主席及各位委員，我們建議第2案裡面第二段這部分可以刪除，對於這次報告沒有寫好造成各位委員的關心或意見，我們會後會去補充所提交的業務報告，所以我們並沒有藐視國會的意思。","後面第三段的部分，我們建議第三段第二行改成……"],["主席：「一周」內改為「一個月」？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是，要求「補充」所提交的業務報告，我們希望建議一個月內重新撰寫，把這個……"],["主席：好，第二段全部撤掉，然後後面那裡「撤回」改為「補充」、「一周」改為「一個月」，是不是這個意思？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是！"],["主席：好，各位委員有沒有意見？（無）沒意見，第2案修正通過。","第3案各位委員有沒有意見？（無）委員沒意見，行政部門？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告主席及各位委員，因為這有些會涉及到個案是否申請，有時候是個案性的議題，我們會提出書面報告，後面第三行的部分我們建議刪除，我們希望改成：尊重質詢委員的意見，並於兩周內提交書面報告。"],["主席：兩周內提出書面報告，各位委員有沒有意見？（無）沒有意見，臨時提案第3案通過。","第4案各位委員有沒有意見？（無）沒意見，行政部門有沒有意見？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們建議改成書面報告。"],["主席：改書面報告，好，修正通過。","第5案各位委員有沒有意見？（無）沒意見，行政部門？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：後面倒數第三行改為「應有規範業者落實附款」，因為我們的附款規定只有附負擔的部分；然後倒數第二行的「兩周」可不可以改成「一個月」提出「相關」修法的「規劃」方向及檢討書面報告。"],["主席：「負擔」改為「附款」、「兩周」改成「兩個月」內提出相關修法規劃方向。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：兩個月嗎？"],["主席：各位委員有沒有意見？（無）沒意見，第5案修正通過。","第6案各位委員有沒有意見？（無）沒意見，請說明。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們跟主席及各位報告一下，第二段裡面所謂業已提起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"end":8.283,"text":"不要亂講謝謝主席,我們請主委好,請主委,謝謝主委好,我剛剛聽建憲委員提到的這個OTT正好我要求很多年的這個MSO"},{"start":27.199,"end":53.34,"text":"那將來就是OTT、MSO、MOD現在算三分天下嘛那OTT一直在成長往那三分天下的方向三大龍頭啦那OTT現在已經取向越來越多那MSO呢是越來越少"},{"start":56.116,"end":62.277,"text":"但是呢 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TV你看大家最在意的當然是新聞頻道所以那個區塊化還是存在只是說在大區塊以外還沒有小區塊這個問題對啊"},{"start":132.026,"end":134.048,"text":"就是因為他一直在declare說人家就要下架啊"},{"start":148.234,"end":151.275,"text":"所以我就講說我們現在一直要求的這個區塊化那什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":172.805,"end":200.265,"text":"偷偷可以什麼時候完成?委員報告,委員非常關心這個議題,那時候我們也去做過相關的研究但是因為這個要投入的資本,它也真的是很龐大所以沒說這不分來說,人家意願就很所以我們當時有跟委員報告就是說如果有哪些區塊有需求我們透過那個所謂遙控器的方法也是一種方法就是讓消費者可以簡單的看到他想看到的區塊的那個內容那遙控器是要買還是要送?"},{"start":200.956,"end":223.254,"text":"如果可以請,如果可以的話,為了推廣這個區域的話,如果遙控器可以的話,我們就盡量請業者看有沒有用送的方法去處理這個議題總是要有時間給我們嗎?有有,這個基本上來講,因為我記得當時你可以看齁,區塊化我們現在更新基上河的情況大概剩下650萬台去年我記得你們給我的數據大概800萬台"},{"start":228.151,"end":255.692,"text":"你看這樣一年多就差100多萬台而且呢他們這個他們自己業者也會換嘛因為有一些基上合的軟體要更新的你看無法更新基上合的現在是589萬台那NCC有補助跟業者自行更換的呢也有80萬台所以其實他都在動那只是說我這個照這個速度動我可能還要動8年到10年"},{"start":257.609,"end":265.677,"text":"那你現在替代方案就是說你用遙控器可以替代這到底效果好不好?那到底現在量有多少?"},{"start":267.985,"end":296.207,"text":"基本上來講的話如果這個可行我們當時研究這是一個可行的方向那個是可以全面性看要不能來實施的問題總要讓我們知道進度啊規劃跟進度如何跟委員報告一下這個部分來講除了Cable TV以外這因為還涉及到頻道上的他們的商業利益的問題那這個進程來講的話我們也是希望可以盡快的因為跟委員講來報告一下就是說因應了這個Cable TV它整個剪線槽的這個線的出現當然那個速度"},{"start":297.468,"end":313.056,"text":"韓國瑜加快所以KBTV這邊來講的話有些劣勢系統經營業者他們除了自己本身另外提供向寬頻上網服務以外也跟ODT的業者去進行合作所以將來他的這個基上的用途就會非常"},{"start":313.556,"end":335.592,"text":"所以是不是可以請主委給我一份報告然後呢就是就我剛才要求的區塊化這個部分我們的規劃跟進度如何那當然主委剛提到他們跟OTT業者合作他們大概怎麼樣打算怎麼樣合作那未來我們的MSO"},{"start":337.422,"end":357.023,"text":"雖然已經越來越少但是還有450萬戶的權益我們還是要顧所以這個部分希望說一起來思考主委可以給我一個報告我們那個一個月之內OK是給我一份報告就包括MSO包括"},{"start":357.924,"end":386.932,"text":"MOD包括 OTT他們未來的研究發展的方向那如何在我們這三個三大龍頭不是電信三大龍頭是我們電視三大龍頭這三大龍頭能夠將來怎麼樣競合或者是說我們要分別跟各自的收視群跟他解釋你們的權利跟義務在哪裡那如何確保你們收視的品質這個都是我們NCC要去思考的吧"},{"start":387.532,"end":394.548,"text":"是不是請主委這個一併思考那一個月內給我一份報告那第二個問題就是那個"},{"start":395.836,"end":419.482,"text":"若是族群我也曾經提過這一部分也謝謝NCC有暖心方案就照顧中低收入戶跟年長者這些這個暖心方案是很好那我也跟主委提過暖心方案如果能夠再加上防炸的話這個效果會更好因為正好若是族群跟老人也是被人家騙的"},{"start":421.075,"end":431.221,"text":"最佳的對象啦最容易受騙的對象啦所以這個部分我們是不是來看就是電話的詐騙那比如說老人來講啦長輩啦"},{"start":433.243,"end":452.936,"text":"你們現在中華電信它防害這個守門員是針對網路啦針對網路但是呢你如果是長輩基本上他會受到網路詐騙的機會會比受到電話詐騙的機會還要小所以我是覺得就是先防電話詐騙這個優先來處理那主委也跟我說上一次也說好"},{"start":454.581,"end":455.941,"text":"那現在的進度如何?"},{"start":475.145,"end":475.585,"text":"最後我再要求一下"},{"start":496.897,"end":510.422,"text":"台灣大哥大反詐戰警這個個人版這個他有針對我講的這個暖性方案他就不收費這個就很具體這個要謝謝他們然後遠傳他還是要收50塊"},{"start":516.224,"end":529.164,"text":"對於老人、長輩、弱勢族群可不可以比照台灣大哥大辦理我們是來協調電信業者,看朝這個方向去那還有中華電信,這麼大間的電信公司提供這個電話防詐有問題嗎?"},{"start":532.698,"end":532.738,"text":"一個禮拜"},{"start":563.485,"end":563.685,"text":"許智傑委員"}]}},{"id":"149647","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149647","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43007f76118c2f95442643c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a604f966d313e88c125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:17:00 - 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是韓國在台有辦事處,可以在自己的辦事處這樣子的一個環境之下投票。那現在問題來了,如果台灣人要在中國投票可行嗎?想起來就是一個笑話嘛。第一,我們在那裡有辦法設大使館,有辦法設領事館,甚至是任何辦事處嗎?如果中國願意讓我們設,我們再進一步來討論嘛。"},{"start":304.267,"end":322.328,"text":"首先這個環境一定要是非常安全的再來就是技術問題就是如果我們台灣人在這個環境之下要如何確保我們能夠依據自己的意志來投票會不會有人監看難道我們是要在北京的人民大會堂下讓他亮票嗎會不會造成這樣的情況"},{"start":325.371,"end":341.922,"text":"這更何況現在中國有反間諜法大家也都知道我們在這裡如果我們台灣人在中國投下的這張票到時候被清算甚至是被消失是不是都會有這種風險所以我覺得這其實就是白話講我們在一個威權國家要投下這張民主的票"},{"start":342.982,"end":358.772,"text":"是一個非常風險高的事情嘛所以我希望說說這個說有人說要倡議海外的通訊投票這件事情其實不只是技術層面就連這個國家的本質都可以很直接的去看到說幾乎是不可行嘛"},{"start":359.813,"end":384.005,"text":"那剛剛也有提到說如果這個票數要回報是不是有所謂的資安的疑慮他們要怎麼回報難道你從中國要回報票數難道要翻牆嗎所以怎麼想這都是非常不可行的所以這個方案我覺得就照主委的方式我們優先的先從可行的包括移轉投票因為移轉投票其實在台灣也有試行過就是我們選務人員現在就是這樣行使的對嗎"},{"start":384.765,"end":399.025,"text":"我們不是原地踏步啦就是說這個移轉投票是有實施的經驗但是這一次的草案是把它擴及到普遍性的任何有投票權的人你都可以申請移轉投票所以我們還是跨出去一步了"},{"start":400.186,"end":421.057,"text":"所以我覺得這個從風險低到風險高的我們必須要排出優先順序所以其實我不太懂現在在這麼多種形式的不在籍投票之下偏偏要挑一個風險這麼高的偏偏要挑一個最不可行的說我們沒有做到沒有一步到位這個就是沒有在做選務改革這件事這個下表示錯的"},{"start":424.739,"end":440.712,"text":"那最後我還是要強調一下無論接下來要用什麼樣的形式啦我們都應該要同意說選務改革必須要有一個大前提就是不能讓這個選制變得更容易舞弊更容易從中作亂更容易降低台灣人對這個選制的信任對嗎"},{"start":443.294,"end":466.061,"text":"台灣的民主選舉已經累積了相當的經驗雖然有人對我們還是提出批評指教我們都虛心的聆聽但是這樣一個選制的運作有它的基礎也有它的價值存在其實我們看到國外的民主選舉雖然是民主先進的國家比如說2020年的美國總統大選也是發生了很多很多的糾紛"},{"start":468.062,"end":468.322,"text":"好﹗謝謝主委"},{"start":495.694,"end":497.245,"text":"好 謝謝我們黃捷委員我們主委"}]}},{"id":"149646","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149646","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300afe03f4d30ccbfe6af4279b9ad9aebfdf8ba9b0039caa7a60300be7979f504765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:08:42 - 10:23:56","影片長度":"00:15:14","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-4"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":914,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:23:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:08:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":246,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時8分）謝謝主席，麻煩請蔡局長。"],["主席：有請局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，馬委員早。"],["馬委員文君：局長早。局長，我想請教一下，近期你睡得好嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我從來沒有想到睡覺問題比專業問題還要難回答，因為我講睡得好，好像我不重視臺海緊張情勢，我說我睡不好，好像臺海情勢很緊張，有在睡覺。"],["馬委員文君：有在睡覺，睡得好不好？因為國防部長跟國安局長，相對的對於臺海的局勢，我想都是一樣的重視。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["馬委員文君：所以現在臺海局勢的發展，也會影響所有的……不只是包括我們國防部長，還有我們所有的國軍弟兄，包括我們的國人其實也都非常的在意。我想請教局長，因為今天也有非常多的委員討論到，現在臺海局勢變得這麼緊張，請局長是不是可以簡單的分析一下，在這8年前跟8年後，我們臺海局勢有這麼大的改變，最主要的原因是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：我覺得最主要的還是中國整體的戰略行為有出現改變，習近平在上臺之後，對於整體的國力他充滿了自信，他也律定了他2027……"],["馬委員文君：因為習近平不是在後來才就任……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，2012年。"],["馬委員文君：他過去其實也是都在的，所以這樣子的轉變，就是說可能兩岸的溝通，還有在各方面的交流都很頻繁的情況之下，關係都很和緩的情況之下，變成現在兩岸的關係這麼緊張，最大的因素，除了中共自己本身的戰略，還有習近平自己的規劃以外，還有什麼樣的因素？"],["蔡局長明彥：我覺得最大的因素還是在於中國整體戰略行為的變動，這剛剛有跟委員說明到，另一方面……"],["馬委員文君：他的戰略有什麼樣的變動？"],["蔡局長明彥：他們現在對於使用、展現自己的國家力量，來對外進行一些相關的存在的提升，不好意思，這個英文叫presence，就是它的存在感的提升，非常地積極。"],["馬委員文君：過去不是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：現在更積極。"],["馬委員文君：它的積極對臺灣做了什麼樣的改變？因為如果以兩會或者長期以來在對臺的政策上面，其實基本上還是希望採取交流溝通，還有很多不管在哪一方面的協同，可是現在大家越來越緊張，那現在的態勢已經變成這樣，我們現在也不再討論這個部分。我想請教局長，如果就這樣的情況之下，因為現在這麼緊張……因為老實說啦！1,300塊就可以收買我們國人，太看輕我們臺灣人了啦！如果是這樣，政府加碼啊！你可以補助5,000塊啊！我們希望不要把臺灣人看得很貪小便宜，然後動不動一點點小恩小惠就可以收買我們，這是非常可笑的。其實在整個國家的政策，包括我們自己在制定的很多政策上面，即使是讓國人可以收到很多的利益，都還不見得可以收買人心，更何況是小恩小惠，所以不要把臺灣人自己貶得這麼低，我們現在要的是自信。過去我們在兩岸或是不管跟哪一個國家，其實我們臺灣的進步，還有我們的發展，還有我們的民主自由，這個才是我們的優勢，不是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["馬委員文君：我們現在常常講的好像不是這樣，所以我們現在比較希望、在乎的就是說，如果以現在大家對這個局勢的分析，目前……等一下也請國防部的副部長也上來，就是說現在包括我們灰色地帶受到不斷的侵擾，甚至國防部長對於第一擊的說法已經比較具體，不過我覺得他的說法讓大家可能有一些誤會，這個等一下請副部長再說明一下，所謂的實體，航空、航海的實體到底是什麼？你連漁船或者像一些他們的工程船都算嗎？這個部分我想應該有必要說清楚。另外就是在這些方面，我想要請教局長，我們應該怎麼因應？如果以現在，甚至在六日兩位現任的總統跟未來的總統他們一起去看我們海巡艦艇的時候，那時候在苗栗距離6海里的地方，大陸的大型漁船已經進到6海里，我們有什麼樣的處置作為？看起來那時候是沒有，為什麼？那未來會不斷不斷的面臨到這樣的問題，我們國安單位有什麼樣的積極建議？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想委員當然也知道啦！現在中共對臺的政策主要是透過壓拉兩手策略，軟的一手、硬的一手來對臺灣進行施壓跟分化，剛剛委員有提到說在軍事的恫嚇部分，這個部分我想國防部也是基於相關的國際法還有聯合國的憲章，一旦有任何侵略國家的主權或領海、領空的行為，必須要有自衛權，這個部分的界定由國防部來對外說明可能會比較恰當。至於委員認為在國安上怎麼樣來應對中共這種壓拉兩手的策略，我們認為還是要強調提升臺灣防衛韌性的重要性，這種防衛韌性不只是只有武器硬體的更新、現代化，它還包括到我們的能源韌性、糧食韌性，還有社會韌性，加強居民合作、全民防衛來提升中共可能武力犯臺的成本，而這個是在烏克蘭戰事之後，歐洲國家普遍在重視的國防現代化的方向，我想我們應該要朝這個方向來努力。"],["馬委員文君：局長你也講到重點了，其實我們應該提升非常多的韌性，可是這些韌性顯然我們好像還是不足的，比如像剛剛有提到的，不管是在社會、經濟或者相關的能源，尤其是能源，我們現在的能源政策對整個國家安全的影響已經非常的大，一旦我們臺灣遭受封鎖的時候，其實對整體的傷害或者負面的影響是非常嚴重的，就能源韌性這一點，局長是不是再多說明一下？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我說明一下，也許等一下國防部也補充，因為現在國防部有全動署，全動署主要就負責在做相關的規劃。據我所知，也有相關的專案在統合各個部會針對怎麼樣來提升我們防衛跟相關的社會韌性，來做相關現有方案的檢討，以及來改進我們相關的策進作為。這部分有在做，我自己參加過幾次會議。"],["馬委員文君：局長如果你有參加過幾次會議，你應該知道全動署跟現在現有的這些人力資源其實是不足的，這個未來我們在國防部的一些相關討論可能也會提到，不過今天我們特別提出來，我想就這幾個部分，因為應該要怎麼樣因應，顯然到6海里處我們還沒有一個應處的作為，完全沒有，甚至消息也是後來才知道，所以就這個部分，我想我們應該要……包括他的大型漁船，包括很多的工程船，包括他的小藍人，最後我們應該要怎麼樣去應對的作為，而不是只有分析局勢，因為現在已經開始面臨這樣的狀況了，這個部分後續我們想請國安局要提出更具體的一些建議跟作法。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，應該的。"],["馬委員文君：另外，接下來因為時間不多，我想要請教一下，因為剛剛徐巧芯委員有提到了幾個……"],["蔡局長明彥：委員，我說明一下，只要中共相關的海警、海監、漁政或相關漁船進入到我們的禁限制水域，我們的海巡署一定會有動作，包括進行驅離的動作，這是法律規定，這是我們兩岸人民關係的法律規定。"],["馬委員文君：那苗栗的大型漁船你怎麼看？3艘漁船。"],["蔡局長明彥：相關當天的實際作業狀況，我們請海巡署來做個補充。"],["馬委員文君：已經到了6海里，我們有什麼樣的應處作為？"],["張副署長忠龍：委員好，這邊跟委員報告……"],["馬委員文君：簡單說明就好。"],["張副署長忠龍：其實當天那3艘船進來，我們在11點多的時候，我們的雷達是有全程監控的，我們也立即派遣我們的巡防艇出去應對，但是因為當天的海象是七到八，最高陣風十級，已經超過我們巡防艇的耐浪級數。"],["馬委員文君：那對方的漁船為什麼可以在那裡那麼久？你的海象不好，我們的船艇沒有辦法，為什麼他的漁船可以？"],["張副署長忠龍：這邊特別跟委員報告，因為他們的漁船大概都是300噸到500噸，那我們的巡防艇只有100噸。"],["馬委員文君：所以它如果大型漁船來，我們就拿它沒辦法的意思？"],["張副署長忠龍：我們是全程有用雷達監控，但是當天我們根據漁船航行的速度，我們認為它應該是在航行當中，同時間我們也……"],["馬委員文君：所以這樣的說法不是有矛盾嗎？剛剛國安局長還有包括大家平常在講的，我們支持海巡，我們也認為海巡這些相關同仁都非常的辛苦，我們也支持海巡執法，可是我們現在要面臨的問題是我們人、船，還有包括現在要應處這樣的環境對我們會造成的影響，你必須有一個具體的規劃跟作為，否則你應該要有什麼樣子的……","包括中美兩大國他們的競爭關係，他們的衝突性有時非常強大，在我們自己的報告裡面也都提到他們雖然是大國競爭的關係，可是他們還是在很多地方是採取去風險、不脫鉤，而且會溝通對話、管控分歧，我們現在不斷地讓很多的分歧不斷地擴大，對我們的傷害其實是越大，包括我們的國軍弟兄，包括我們的海空軍，其實他們真的是非常的疲乏，包括油料不斷地要增加，你怎麼沒有想到應該用其他的方式去管控風險，而不是政治解決，這個部分正是我們今天要特別提出來，包括海巡，包括國安單位，其實就這個部分，我覺得應該要再去做一個更好的、更周全的考慮，你自己的業務報告也提到了，其他國家都可以這樣做了，我們自己做不到，過去跟現在最大的改變，就是我們根本沒有辦法具有溝通的管道，我們的分歧不斷地擴大，可是當它進到6海里的時候，漁船進來，我們只是用雷達監控。"],["蔡局長明彥：中共各種灰色地帶的操作，我們確實在執法還有法律的運作過程當中，要更細緻來因應它的操作，因為常常這種灰色地帶的操作還會牽動到一些爭議訊息的散播，或是去凸顯管轄權相關的問題，所以謝謝委員提醒……"],["馬委員文君：現在都已經發生了。局長，從頭到尾我們都非常清楚，現在因為時間的關係，最後我想要請教，因為徐巧芯委員剛剛也有提到，就她提出來的四個錄音錄影流出的部分，剛剛局長有說介選，剛好在那個時機點。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["馬委員文君：你看，像潛艦在最後的階段，因為兩年前那個錄音檔已經送給國防部、送給調查局、送給相關單位，還包括韓國的駐臺代表處，因為裡面牽涉到有很多的不法，甚至可能會影響到國家的安全，它在兩年前通通不查，在選舉前提出來，這樣有沒有介選？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想這個尊重司法機關偵辦的過程，我們行政機關不適合對司法審判的案件再做更多評論。"],["馬委員文君：局長，我在這裡要提醒一下，因為我說的時間點是兩年前就有，如果有這樣的狀況，其實不用每一個都推給司法調查，司法調查是一個，行政調查也是一個，今天國安單位，如果有委員跟中共的女子有親密關係，到底會不會影響？這個部分跟司法調查沒有關係，在國家安全上面，本來我們應該要主動介入，過去不知道，可是當你知道以後，你是什麼樣的作為？在選舉的期間，該有的全部出現，不該有的也全部都出現了，這個部分，我們都請國安單位要調查，其實也要去掌控。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["馬委員文君：我們再一次強調，雖然有司法調查，但是不代表行政不能調查，包括海巡的這個事件，因為行政調查是必要的，你都應該要隨時掌握，不然司法案件有時候一拖非常長的時間，你怎麼樣去做一個風險管控或者即時可以做一些應處的作為？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這部分剛剛也跟徐委員有稍微說明一下，對於它傳散的管道，還有IP位置的查找，我們這部分都有盡力的在……"],["馬委員文君：IP位置的查找，你只是講一個，你只是講鄭文燦副院長嘛！可是還有羅致政委員，還有趙天麟委員，還有其他的委員啊！像這些會造成什麼樣的影響？而且這麼容易就被錄音錄影，如果你沒有做，人家就不容易做這樣的動作嘛，對不對？我們在乎的不是這個影片的內容而已，而是它的管道，甚至是不是透過這樣的管道，當有很多的里長或者其他的人員去旅遊或交流的時候都被約談，像這樣子，你們做了什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，對於這部分的，我們剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過了，整個在兩岸交流過程當中，透過國安法制所進行相關的留置、約談或偵訊，我們針對可能遭到它鎖定的目標對象會做一些完整的整理，也會進行必要的通報，以提醒國人到大陸的過程當中要注意的事情，這是我們的職責，我們繼續來做。"],["馬委員文君：那麼剛剛提到的這些，像趙委員呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，事實上不是只有……"],["馬委員文君：你們有嗎？有做嗎？有做到嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：不是只有針對鄭文燦副院長，其他案子相關散布的網絡管道，我們都有在做，檢調單位……"],["馬委員文君：不是散布網絡，我們講的不是散布的這些管道，當有些只是去旅遊、去溝通交流的時候，其實都已經被約談了，我們現在在乎的是，甚至你的身分非常敏感特殊，可是你不但沒有去做安全的管控，或者甚至去掌握是不是有一些洩密的作為，我想這個國安局就失職了。"],["蔡局長明彥：有在注意。"],["馬委員文君：這個後續我們再來討論。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們有在注意，謝謝委員提醒。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：接下來請楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-4","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","陳冠廷","邱志偉","賴士葆","張啓楷","吳宗憲","陳永康","林憶君","王定宇","黃仁","王鴻薇","洪申翰"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發\n展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131001_00012"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":3.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.78034375,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.062843750000003,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.345343750000001,"end":16.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.762218750000002,"end":21.664718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.81221875,"end":29.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.11471875,"end":75.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.32721875,"end":85.72221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.31721875000001,"end":119.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.72159375000001,"end":92.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.99534375,"end":127.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.86346875000001,"end":128.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.77034375,"end":136.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.00534375,"end":145.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.98346875000001,"end":144.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.73409375,"end":185.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.02721875,"end":214.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.44471875000002,"end":224.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.41346875000002,"end":225.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.64971875,"end":225.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.52721875,"end":237.96846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.26534375000003,"end":228.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.51846875,"end":228.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.67721875,"end":239.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.38159375,"end":245.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.98409375000003,"end":275.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.05534375,"end":285.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.91034375000004,"end":286.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.56409375000004,"end":296.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.18284375,"end":298.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.25846875,"end":308.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.70846875,"end":315.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.79596875000004,"end":351.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.84096875,"end":374.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.16221875,"end":376.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.02284375000005,"end":403.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.20409375,"end":377.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.53284375000004,"end":379.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.40034375000005,"end":390.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.29034375000003,"end":392.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.37284375,"end":408.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.45221875000004,"end":409.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.46909375,"end":409.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.50284375,"end":411.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.24534375,"end":432.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.85784375000003,"end":457.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.68034375,"end":435.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.69784375,"end":463.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.46909375,"end":464.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.20721875000004,"end":483.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.97909375,"end":466.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.08034375000005,"end":467.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.76221875000005,"end":478.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.42846875000004,"end":481.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.60971875,"end":482.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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國防現代化的方向那我想我們應該要朝這個方向來努力"},{"start":375.6,"end":403.409,"text":"局長你也講到重點了其實我們應該提升非常多的韌性可是這些韌性顯然我們好像還是不足的比如說在很多像剛剛有提到的不管是在社會、經濟或者相關的能源尤其是能源我們現在的能源政策對整個國家安全的影響已經非常的大一旦我們台灣遭受封鎖的時候其實對整體的傷害或者"},{"start":404.429,"end":431.299,"text":"負面的影響是非常嚴重的就這一點能源的韌性局長是不是再多說明一下對我說明一下也許等一下國防部也補充因為現在國防部有權動署那權動署主要就負責在做相關的規劃那據我所知有相關的專案在統合各個部會針對怎麼樣來提升我們防衛跟相關的社會韌性來做相關現有方案的檢討那以及來改進我們相關的策進作為這部分有在做我自己參加過幾次的會議"},{"start":432.932,"end":454.308,"text":"局長如果你有參加過幾次的會議你應該知道權動署跟現在現有的這些人力資源其實是不足的這個未來我們在國防部的一些相關的討論可能也會提到不過今天我們特別提出來我想就這幾個部分因為應該要怎麼樣因應顯然到六海里處我們還沒有一個應處的作為"},{"start":457.791,"end":483.359,"text":"完全沒有甚至消息也是後來才知道所以就這個部分我想我們應該要包括他的大型漁船包括很多的工程船包括他的小藍人我們最後我們應該要怎麼樣去應對的作為而不是只有分析局勢因為現在已經開始面臨這樣的狀況了這個部分我們想請後續國安局要提出更具體的一些建議跟做法"},{"start":484.159,"end":509.336,"text":"另外,因為時間也不多,我想要請教一下,因為剛剛徐巧欣委員有提到了幾個委員我說明一下,那個只要中共的相關的海警、海監、漁政或相關的漁船進入到我們的淨線制水域我們的海巡署一定會有動作,包括進行驅離的動作,這是法律規定這是我們兩岸人民關係的法律規定那苗栗的那個大型漁船你怎麼看?三艘的那個漁船"},{"start":511.453,"end":516.442,"text":"對,相關當天的實際的作業狀況,我們請海巡署來做個補充。已經到了六海里,我們有什麼樣的應處作為?"},{"start":518.218,"end":543.963,"text":"委員好 這邊特別跟委員報告其實他當天那三艘船進來我們在11點多的時候我們的雷達是有全能監控的那我們也立即派遣我們的巡防艇出去應對但是因為當天的海象7到8最高陣風十幾已經超過我們巡防艇的耐浪時間那對方漁船為什麼可以在那裡那麼久你的海象不好我們的船艇沒有辦法為什麼他的漁船可以"},{"start":544.924,"end":560.302,"text":"這邊特別跟委員報告因為他們的漁船大概都300噸到500噸那我們的循環艇只有100噸所以他如果大型漁船來我們就拿他沒辦法的意思我們是全程有監控用雷達監控但是當天我們根據漁船的航行的速度我們判我們認為他應該是在航行當中"},{"start":563.626,"end":567.07,"text":"所以這樣的說法不是有矛盾嗎剛剛國安局長還包括大家平常在講的我們支持海巡我們也認為海巡的這些相關的同仁都非常的辛苦我們也支持海巡執法可是我們現在要面臨的問題是我們"},{"start":581.144,"end":584.507,"text":"人、船還有包括我們現在要應處的這樣的環境對我們會造成的影響你必須有一個具體的規劃跟作為否則你應該要有什麼樣子的包括中美兩大國他們的競爭關係他們的衝突性有時非常強大"},{"start":599.301,"end":617.291,"text":"在我們自己的報告裡面也都提到他們雖然是這樣的一個關係大國競爭的關係可是他們還是在很多地方是採取去風險不脫鉤而且會溝通對話管控分歧我們現在不斷的讓很多的分歧不斷的擴大對我們的傷害其實是越大"},{"start":620.313,"end":627.2,"text":"包括我們的國軍弟兄包括我們的海控軍其實他們真的是非常的疲乏包括我們的油料不斷的要增加你怎麼沒有想到應該用其他的方式去管控風險而不是政治解決這個部分這是我們今天要特別提出來的這個部分包括海巡"},{"start":640.872,"end":665.672,"text":"包括我們國安單位其實就這個部分我覺得應該要再去做一個更好的更周全的一個考慮你自己的業務報告其他國家都可以這樣做了我們自己做不到過去跟現在最大的改變就是我們根本沒有辦法具有溝通的管道我們的分歧不斷的擴大可是當它進到六海裡的時候只是漁船進來我們只是用雷達監控"},{"start":667.335,"end":683.499,"text":"我想各種中共的灰色地帶的操作我們確實在執法還有法律的一個運作過程當中要來更細緻來因應它的一個操作因為常常這種灰色地帶的操作還會牽動到的還有一些爭議訊息的散播或是去凸顯管轄權的相關的問題"},{"start":686.52,"end":705.377,"text":"現在都已經在發生了,局長這個從頭到尾我們都非常清楚,現在因為時間的關係,最後我想要請教因為徐曉新委員剛剛也有提到,就他提出來的四個錄音錄影流出的部分,剛剛局長有說借選嘛,在剛好那個時機點,那你看像在"},{"start":710.421,"end":729.81,"text":"因為兩年前那個錄音檔已經送給國防部送給調查局送給相關單位還包括韓國的駐台代表處因為裡面牽涉到有很多的不法甚至可能會影響到國家的安全他在兩年前通通不查在選舉前提出來這樣有沒有借權"},{"start":730.885,"end":754.48,"text":"那這我想尊重那個司法機關他們偵辦的一個過程我們行政機關不適合對司法審判的案件在...局長我在這裡要提醒一下因為我說的時間點是兩年前就有如果有這樣子的狀況其實不用每一個都推給司法調查司法調查是一個行政調查也是一個今天國安單位如果是影響有委員跟"},{"start":755.581,"end":773.704,"text":"中共的女子其實有親密的關係她到底會不會影響這個部分跟司法調查沒有關係這個在國家安全上面本來我們應該要主動介入過去不知道可是當你知道以後你是什麼樣的作為在選舉的期間該有的全部"},{"start":774.665,"end":794.018,"text":"不該有的也全部都出現了那這個部分我們都請國安單位其實也要去掌控我們再一次強調雖然有司法調查不代表行政不能調查包括海巡的這個事件因為行政調查是必要的你都應該要隨時掌握不然司法案件有時一拖非常長的時間那你怎麼樣去做一個風險管控或者在即時可以做一些應處的一個作為"},{"start":801.123,"end":810.646,"text":"這部分剛剛也跟徐委員有稍微說明一下對於他的船上的一個管道還有IP位置的查找我們這部分都有建議的在IT位置的查找你只是講一個嘛你只是講鄭文燦副院長嘛可是你還有羅志正委員啊你還有趙天寧委員啊還有其他的委員啊像這些他會造成什麼樣而且這麼容易就被錄音錄影如果你沒有做那人家就不容易做這樣的一個動作嘛對不對"},{"start":828.112,"end":845.409,"text":"那我們在乎的不是這個影片的內容而已而是它的管道甚至它是不是透過這樣的管道當有很多的里長或者其他的人員去做旅遊或交流的時候都被約談那像這樣子呢你們做了什麼"},{"start":846.39,"end":872.419,"text":"對,對於這部分的,我們剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過了,他的整個在兩岸交流過程當中,透過國安法制所進行的相關的留置約談或徵訊,我們會針對可能遭到他鎖定的目標的對象,會做一些完整的整理,那也會進行必要的通報,來提醒國人到大陸過程當中要注意的事情,這是我們的職責,我們繼續來做。那像剛剛提到的這些,像趙委員呢?"},{"start":873.662,"end":876.867,"text":"對,事實上不是只有針對鄭文燦副院長其他的案子的相關散佈的網絡管道這個我們都有在做我們講的不是散佈的這些管道"},{"start":889.066,"end":907.412,"text":"有些只是去旅遊去溝通交流的時候其實都已經被約談了我們現在在乎的是甚至你的身份非常敏感特殊可是你不但沒有去做一個安全的管控或者甚至去掌握是不是有一些洩密的一個作為我想這個國安局就失職了這個後續我們再來討論這個時間謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149645","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149645","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300636483bc8063a2b11cfe294bc3fbc1e0f8ba9b0039caa7a6aa6d9d5be5f1c9245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:14:29 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10:22:42","影片長度":"00:08:13","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部列席就「國家運動科學中心如何協助運動選手，提升參加國際競賽成績之具體作為。」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":493,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:22:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:14:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":592,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時14分）主席好，請一下次長。"],["主席：好，有請林次長。"],["林次長騰蛟：郭委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：次長早安。行政院其實在2022年（前年）5月已經有核定一個臺灣運動跟科技行動的計畫，我們看到體育署也特別針對這樣的一項計畫希望能夠做跨部會的整合，這個整合目前為止在這次的整個業務報告當中我覺得比較沒有被明顯地拉出來講，我不曉得您知不知道國科會在2018年11月已經有推動一個精準運動科學研究專案計畫，他們針對三大研究方向，包含運科的訓練、體能的恢復，還有傷害的防治，另外還有戰術、技術的分析，針對這三個方向，照理來講國科會他們已經有這樣子的一個計畫呈現，他們也成功的在2020年冬奧實踐了這樣子的一個計畫。我不曉得整個體育署是不是有跨部會能夠在這個部分來做一個銜接，這個部分有做到嗎？"],["林次長騰蛟：跟委員報告，這一個運動x科技的行動計畫是由行政院科技會報整合相關部會，包含教育部、經濟部還有國科會等相關單位分別來辦理。其中在教育部的部分主要是負責人才培育還有場域試驗的部分，所以基本上大概也分成了兩期的計畫，第一期的精準計畫主要是補助了8個研究團隊，總共有十多項的技術，另外第二期是補助12個研究團隊，目前也都在積極進行當中，未來透過這個計畫，與教育部有關的部分一方面是強化基礎的結構做人才培育，同時也會針對運科能量的擴大，這個部分我們會跟國發會來做一個合作，另外在產業的部分，建立產業生態系這個部分我們會跟經濟部合作，同時在研發的部分也會跟國科會一起來協助跟幫忙。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們是希望真的能夠落實到第一線培育所謂的體育人才，這個部分其實是最實際的，如果真的有一個比較具體的計畫的話，再麻煩提供給我們，好不好？"],["林次長騰蛟：好的。"],["郭委員昱晴：剛剛次長也提到所謂的人才培育的問題，我相信光是講到培養運動科技人才是怎麼樣能夠跟我們現在……其實大家都知道臺灣科技技術是非常非常頂尖的，那我們要怎麼樣跟科技產業來做競爭，去把真的好的人才延攬到這個運科中心來？"],["林次長騰蛟：跟委員報告，這個運科中心因為去年下半年才剛剛成立，所以目前包含組織或者人員的部分都陸陸續續在增聘當中，但是我們也是把握這樣的一個時間，所以這段時間一方面也跟工研院、各大專校院等等，還有包含一些研究機構一起來做一些合作，其中在人才培育的部分，我們運科中心也跟幾所大學密集的交流，我們也評估如果大學中具有運科能量的部分也跟他們積極來做一些合作。"],["郭委員昱晴：所謂的積極合作有沒有包含……"],["林次長騰蛟：就我瞭解，像臺北市立大學、臺灣師大還有國立體育大學目前都有簽署運科中心跟這幾所大學的合作，來培養運動科技的相關人才，以及進行運動產業科技的一些相關研發。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們希望能夠儘快，而且很多的部分其實應該要快速的到位，因為我相信2024年大家最聚焦的應該是在巴黎奧運。","運動員最重要的就是他們的身心狀態要夠健康，當然不管是他們在進去所謂的國訓中心之前，他們在訓練基地的時候，大大小小不同的一些運動傷害其實有可能都已經存在他們的身上，所以進到了國訓中心，最重要的應該就是在專屬的防護人員，還有培訓防護人力上的需求。因為一直到昨天晚上才給我們最新的數據，這個數據其實是沒有update到上面的，我們是要了很久，到昨天晚上、禮拜天的晚上才收到，這個地方我請3位可以稍微看一下，在國訓中心的運動防護員跟物理治療師這個部分的人力配置，我們看到其中一個特別框起來的網球部分，不管是第一級、第二級、第三級的網球選手，再加上運動防護員、物理治療師，整個醫護組的配置是零耶！這個部分是不是可以稍微解釋一下這個狀況嗎？甚至有一些是低於25%，這個部分在人力的配置上是非常嚴重不足的。"],["林次長騰蛟：跟委員報告，國訓中心針對運科人員，包含了運動防護員跟物理治療師，基本上包含黃金計畫和亞奧培訓練，黃金計畫前三級的選手都是屬於我們重點培育的選手，這個部分是提供客製化、專屬的運科團隊，也就是說，如果前三級的菁英選手有運科需求的部分，他需要哪一類的運科人員，都是提供專屬的。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以資料是不會登錄在上面？"],["林次長騰蛟：至於四級、五級的選手，則是以團隊的方式來協助跟支援；另外，亞奧培的部分也是用團隊的方式來支援。目前國訓中心除了編制內已經有的45個運動防護員之外，也有一些計畫性的，大概也有2、30位計畫性的運動防護員來做協助、幫忙，就我們的瞭解，目前配置的部分應該是可以的，當然如果有需要再增強，或者要配合後面的奧運在做備戰的情況，如果需要再做一些增調的部分，都可以來做一些調整。"],["郭委員昱晴：其實這部分真的很重要，我們不希望發生前幾年我們射箭選手拿了銀牌回來，結果他們的心理師是斷炊的，其實對我們來講，這也是他們的一個很重要的後盾，所以整個防護員還有物理治療師等人力的增加，還有這些人力是不是可以因為我們給的條件，讓他們願意留下來，因為我知道在外面或者是在我們國訓中心裡頭，光是薪資的部分還是會有一些落差，這對他們來講要留人不容易。我們剛剛一直在講人才這個部分，其實治療師還有防護員也是非常重要的一環，這個部分你們趕快儘量補齊，好不好？"],["林次長騰蛟：是的，人力的部分會依照我們實際上的需要，該聘的我們就聘。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，如果有一些資料可以趕快更新的話，你們去年揭牌，我們希望你們有一些資料也要馬上建置，這個部分你們也可以加速來做後續的處理，好不好？"],["林次長騰蛟：好，謝謝郭委員的提醒，我們會特別留意。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝次長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員。","再來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":280,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","萬美玲","葉元之","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","范雲","羅美玲","牛煦庭","吳春城","徐巧芯","黃國昌","柯志恩","林倩綺","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":219,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部列席就「國家運動科學中心如何協助運動選手，提升參加國際競賽成績之具體作\n為。」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.40909375,"end":15.015968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.711593750000002,"end":19.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.555343750000002,"end":19.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.69034375,"end":19.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.74096875,"end":19.977218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.90971875,"end":19.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.977218750000002,"end":20.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.99409375,"end":20.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.04471875,"end":20.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.09534375,"end":20.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.16284375,"end":20.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.19659375,"end":37.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.66221875,"end":41.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.96534375,"end":98.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.28971875,"end":160.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.08346875000001,"end":123.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.00159375,"end":197.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.80159375000002,"end":172.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.73846875,"end":259.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.95971875,"end":242.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.29846875000004,"end":269.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.96346875,"end":287.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.39096875,"end":343.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","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TV，還包括整個平臺下面……"],["林委員俊憲：OTT現在的市占率越來越高，你應該知道吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，我知道。"],["林委員俊憲：OTT現在的占有率大概是13%，跟中華電信的MOD幾乎一樣，所以任何的消費糾紛或者內容有什麼樣的狀況，我們根本沒有辦法管理……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以消費者保護就是我們要立法的最重要……"],["林委員俊憲：所以你要趕快立法啊！照你所講的，是明年底欸！2025年12月OTT專法才要送行政院！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告，我們加快腳步啦！"],["林委員俊憲：我不知道你怎麼排這個期程的，這應該是給下一屆的NCC委員或者主委來弄……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以我們現在……"],["林委員俊憲：你怎麼會訂這個日期，我不清楚啦，但這個法律確實是勢在必行，你看OTT現在越來越多，對不對？有線電視收看率一直下降。還有，現在民眾對於媒體接受的訊息信任度非常低，難怪瑞典有個專業機構在評估全世界的假訊息時，臺灣連續10年蟬聯世界第一名，受假訊息、境外假訊息的影響，臺灣是全世界最嚴重的國家，而且蟬聯10年第一名。大家都很清楚，大部分的假訊息來自中國，這部分我認為數發部和NCC要負最大的責任。就以NCC所主管的電視和廣播，根據臺灣事實查核中心的民調，認為經常性，甚至每天都有散播假消息的，有過半民眾，亦即有一半以上的民眾認為電視、廣播經常都是胡說八道，說得都是假的訊息，但網路更嚴重！臺灣好像活在一個什麼都是假的社會裡面，這樣人跟人之間，或是人跟政府之間，信賴度變得非常低，造成在國際上的評比那麼難看，連續10年都是最嚴重喔！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是啊！"],["林委員俊憲：我們希望相關部會要趕快加油，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，是，落實事實查證一直是我們努力的方向，謝謝委員。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員的發言。","下一位請許智傑委員發言。報告，許智傑委員發言完畢以後，休息10分鐘。休息10分鐘完畢以後，處理臨時提案。","請許智傑委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.9040937500000001,"end":2.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.865343750000001,"end":7.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.801593750000002,"end":10.122218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.122218750000002,"end":10.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.273468750000003,"end":17.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.37846875,"end":18.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.80784375,"end":26.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.44034375,"end":27.149093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.402218750000003,"end":28.296593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.089718750000003,"end":32.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.274718750000005,"end":45.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.924093750000004,"end":35.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.99159375,"end":36.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.025343750000005,"end":36.244718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.455343750000004,"end":38.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.71659375,"end":41.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.205343750000004,"end":45.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.79596875,"end":47.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.90534375,"end":49.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.727843750000005,"end":53.845343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.672218750000006,"end":58.266593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.77284375000001,"end":59.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.118468750000005,"end":61.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.31659375,"end":66.11346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.78846875,"end":70.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.78784375000001,"end":73.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.55534375,"end":75.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.40721875,"end":79.42784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.63034375000001,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.36409375000001,"end":84.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.85721875,"end":94.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.45971875000001,"end":91.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.32846875,"end":96.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.96096875,"end":98.76659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.42471875000001,"end":101.93909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.27659375,"end":105.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.46596875,"end":106.19159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.18721875,"end":107.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.62159375,"end":109.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.81971875,"end":110.15721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.15721875000001,"end":111.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.45659375000001,"end":114.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.98784375000001,"end":114.39284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.29159375,"end":116.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.45159375,"end":117.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.81846875000001,"end":118.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.52721875,"end":121.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.69971875,"end":123.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.69096875000001,"end":125.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.14221875000001,"end":125.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.93534375,"end":1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都在網路裡贏啦我們以前覺得老人黃黃好騙 不一樣啦年輕人也很好騙 你來看啦現在受害者啊 一樣啊 也是集中在年輕人啦這被害人喔 被害人被害人在40歲以內啊 大概7成在7成受害者是40歲以內年輕人所以在這網路上 為什麼速發部很重要 為什麼ACC很重要你看現在這種AI語音生成器啊"},{"start":278.376,"end":294.59,"text":"他可以自動打幾百萬通電話然後他可以根據你怎麼回答他就知道你有沒有興趣你聽幾秒你聽很久講很久就表示你有興趣然後他事後再用簡訊丟回去給你像那邊那個被害人就因為這樣一次兩次費了2700萬像這樣的詐騙案"},{"start":300.117,"end":307.769,"text":"未來啊 因為科技的進步啊 現在越來越可怕了我們希望NCC啊 像這種AI語音電競照片 你們有什麼辦法處理啊"},{"start":309.991,"end":310.111,"text":"那另外齁"},{"start":340.168,"end":340.929,"text":"我告訴你喔 主委"},{"start":364.127,"end":384.376,"text":"你每一次在你任內啦基本上照理講修這個法是你任內很重要的一個工作是是是很可惜啦你看你自己寫的報告裡面啊廣電三法你說要今年年底啦2024年12月才報行政院是OTT啊你寫2025年啊6月才要報行政院啊我不知道你怎麼估算了啦"},{"start":391.384,"end":414.29,"text":"目前來看你寫這個錄取實在是有點不大負責任最主要是ODTT是因為涉及到網路平台業者的這種責任的問題那這個部分來講的話不是只有我們ODTT包括整個平台因為ODTT現在的市佔率越來越高啦你應該知道啦ODTT現在佔有率大概13%跟中華電信的MOD幾乎一樣"},{"start":415.717,"end":415.937,"text":"林俊憲"},{"start":435.868,"end":452.133,"text":"那應該是給下一屆的NCC的那個委員或者是他們主委來弄嘛那你怎麼會定這個日期我不清楚啦但這個法律確實是在避刑嘛你這樣OT現在越來越多啊對不對有間電視收看率一直下降啊還有現在民眾對於"},{"start":460.165,"end":468.007,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":483.673,"end":505.889,"text":"臺灣的假訊息受境外的有境外的假訊息來影響臺灣是全世界最嚴重的國家而且纏連10年了當然這大部分為了假訊息大家都很清楚就是來自中國嘛那這部分我認為啊事務部跟UCC要負最大的責任所以你看現在民眾啊"},{"start":506.909,"end":516.516,"text":"通訊傳播委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":536.55,"end":536.69,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"149643","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149643","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300446e977fe3f2f8337e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a619ee2b2e751d37cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"10:03:56 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OK。但是為什麼要有換照制度？這個部分就是政府去把關的議題，也就是政府要不要透過一定的法律授權之下，對於相關的市場把關。"],["邱委員若華：當時陳院長在連續被問六次的情況下，最後鬆口認同，主委呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我知道院長的意見……基本上來講，如果全民認為言論市場不需要政府把關，換照制度要整個廢掉，這個也是尊重法律的規定。因為獨立機關本來就是執行大院所制定的各種法律，我個人認為換照制度還是有一定的需要，以言論本身來講，還是有一些相關的爭論，就像我剛才所講的……"],["邱委員若華：請主委回答認同，還是不認同？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：認同、不認同有很多的前提，謝謝。"],["邱委員若華：OK。獨立機關的人事受任期保障，在未違反相關法令的時候，不管是誰執政，都不可以直接解任NCC委員之職務。然而獨立機關仍受憲法體制下之制衡跟監督，立法院對於獨立機關之監督也是憲政秩序下之必要，陳主委除了有不少爭議之外，在上屆國會就被批評不尊重國會、藐視國會，行政機關本來就應該要對立法院負責。上屆發生過官員藐視國會的那一些案例，讓過去完全執政的民進黨遭受到不負責任、「鴨霸」的批評，也讓過去立法院過半的民進黨委員背負著完全執政、完全護航的包袱。請問主委是不是因為您的任期快結束了，就對國會的監督不在意？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有。我們在一個位置每一天做到盡責盡職，本來行政機關接受立法機關的監督就是憲法所規定的，我們也沒有藐視國會，可能在行政跟立法的溝通或監督的過程裡面有些意見不一樣，但是這沒有藐視國會的議題。"],["邱委員若華：上一屆民進黨立院席次過半，這一屆席次減少並未過半，沒有辦法像過去一樣護航著主委。主委的任期……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這不是護航的問題，而是我們這個社會可能是更多元化。"],["邱委員若華：主委的任期到7月底，只要還在位子上的一天就得面對新國會的監督。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然。"],["邱委員若華：不分政黨、不分黨派的委員都對您這樣喊話，請問您要怎麼調整呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就是做到最後一天。你們有監督，我們就該來報告，委員有問題，我們當然要回答，就是這樣啊！"],["邱委員若華：做到最後一天，所以業務報告文字就是照抄嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：剛才主席所裁示希望調整的部分，我們會去調整。"],["邱委員若華：再拜託，請NCC做出調整。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員若華：賴清德在1月13號當選總統時的勝選感言講到，國會選舉民進黨沒有維持過半的席次是代表民進黨努力不夠，的確有虛心要檢討的地方。主委，您認為您有哪些地方要檢討呢？例如在您的任期結束之前，面對新一屆的國會改變自己的負面評價，你要做出哪一些改變呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：比如黨政軍的議題，我們要不要處理；比如換照制度要如何更確實、比較落實，有哪些東西要入法，還有很多比如事實查證的部分要如何精進的議題，當然還有很多電信的議題。因為時間的關係沒有辦法跟委員一一報告、說明清楚，我們在業務報告裡面會再跟委員說明清楚。"],["邱委員若華：OK。我希望可以在業務報告裡面看到。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員的發言。下一位請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.371593750000001,"end":10.071593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.594718750000002,"end":10.898468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.43346875,"end":16.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.45846875,"end":35.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.47846875,"end":25.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.782218750000002,"end":25.832843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.227843750000005,"end":42.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.150968750000004,"end":47.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.765968750000006,"end":52.259093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.30971875,"end":55.836593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.10659375,"end":69.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.17596875000001,"end":83.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.86596875000001,"end":85.13159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.30034375000001,"end":89.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.56971875,"end":89.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.97471875000001,"end":90.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.58221875000001,"end":90.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.59909375000001,"end":97.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.11284375000001,"end":99.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.64409375000001,"end":103.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.47471875000001,"end":111.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.35096875,"end":118.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.72971875,"end":131.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.52971875,"end":136.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.97159375,"end":142.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.91159375,"end":144.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.02096875,"end":150.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.85971875,"end":156.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.06971875000002,"end":161.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.68096875,"end":163.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.93784375,"end":186.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.97221875000002,"end":187.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.30534375000002,"end":195.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.86534375000002,"end":197.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.31221875,"end":208.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.42034375,"end":214.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.05284375000002,"end":213.53346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.59659375,"end":223.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.21534375000002,"end":226.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.49346875,"end":228.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.12596875000003,"end":230.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.37471875000003,"end":236.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.11659375000002,"end":237.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.7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有請陳主委主委請問好"},{"start":18.516,"end":45.762,"text":"主委好,剛才聽到您講說NCC作為獨立機關那國家通訊傳播委員會作為獨立機關理應依法行政那獨立行使職權但近年來NCC未能保持中立以及獨立行使職權已經造成了信任危機那陳主委在您任內多起案件備受爭議包括撤銷中天電視換照案還有禁電視執照審查案尤其中天撤照案還主動挺華市公開呼籲給公廣"},{"start":48.823,"end":69.501,"text":"集團新聞頻道一個機會也在前年推動有侵犯言論自由一律的數位中介服務法造成過半民意訪談而後行政院暫緩推動那我們看到這一張簡報竟有72.3%的受訪民眾認為主委您應該下台也讓你組長的NCC不被信任度高"},{"start":71.489,"end":99.261,"text":"國內民眾不相信NCC是獨立公正的機關在民主社會中當政府機關不被人民信任的話是一種危機那主委你的爭議之一讓NCC公權力干涉到新聞台的新聞自由造成寒蟬效應那尊重新聞自由是民主國家政府機關必須秉持的原則同意嗎我們本來是獨立機關就依照法律依法去行政去監理做監理所以這沒有什麼這個問題了當然各界的意見我們都尊重了"},{"start":99.801,"end":129.365,"text":"那跟委員報告一下,特別剛剛委員有提到這個所謂的仲介法仲介法當時是為了很多事解決包括我們很多的網路犯罪、炸機或是其他的像性影像、兒少保護的議題其實仲介法我們當時只是還在徵詢階段當然外界有很多不同的聲音以後我們就是說我們也把它就停止希望在外界跟社會都溝通完以後再來處理這個議題所以後來包括很多性影像這個部分也是透過個別立法去通過的"},{"start":129.665,"end":130.446,"text":"主委,您有任何反省?"},{"start":145.086,"end":160.38,"text":"有啊,我們基本上呢,我們跟外界多回應,一直在回應當中那只是說,因為這信者恆信,不信者恆不信就變成這個議題嘛那民主社會裡面本來各種不同意見都有嘛有不同意見這個才是我們民主社會一個最珍貴的地方嘛"},{"start":161.02,"end":187.688,"text":"在上週五的時候本黨委員在質詢行政院院長陳院長的時候他說是否認同新聞台跟節目不該由政府去關台那後來陳院長也鬆口表示認同因為主委的公信力被質疑當時質詢的委員沒有讓您回答那這裡是交通委員會今天的議程正是跟我們國家通訊傳播委員會業務報告有關那現在請主委回答那是否認同新聞台跟節目不應該由政府去關台跟委員報告一下"},{"start":188.548,"end":214.213,"text":"這個就是說要不要有換照制度這個問題其實重點就在這個部分比如說我們現在在網路上因為沒有拿執照也沒有換照的問題你一個網紅或誰要都OK但是為什麼要換照制度這個部分就是政府去把關的議題就是說政府要不要透過在一定的法律授權底下對這些相關的市場去做一個把關那當時陳院長在連續被問6次的情況下最後收口是認同那主委您呢"},{"start":214.733,"end":215.674,"text":"那請主委回答認同還是不認同"},{"start":238.205,"end":263.362,"text":"那有很多的前提啦認同不認同這很多的前提OK好那獨立機關的人士受任期保障在違反相關法令的時候不管是誰執政都不可以直接解任NCC委員之職務那獨立機關人受憲法體制下之制衡跟監督那立法院對獨立機關之監督也是憲政秩序下之批要陳主委您有不少爭議之外那在上屆國會就被批評"},{"start":263.902,"end":286.091,"text":"不尊重國會、藐視國會那行政機關本來就應該要對立法院負責上次發生過官員藐視國會的那些案例也讓過去完全執政的民進黨遭受到不負責任阿拔的批評也讓過去立法院過半的民進黨委員背負著完全執政、完全護航的包袱請問主委是不是因為您的任期快結束了就對國會的監督不在意"},{"start":286.471,"end":303.349,"text":"沒有我們在一個位置每一天做到盡責盡職本來行政機關接受立法院機關立法機關的這個監督這個是憲法裡面所規定的我們也沒有藐視國會可能在行政跟立法的溝通或監督的過程裡面有些意見不一樣但是這沒有藐視國會的議題"},{"start":305.453,"end":310.235,"text":"主委的任期到7月底只要還在位子上的一天就得面對新國會的監督這是不分政黨不分黨派的委員都對您的喊話請問您要怎麼做調整呢"},{"start":329.826,"end":336.242,"text":"就是做到最後一天你們有監督我們就該來報告你們委員有一問題我們剛才要回答就是這樣"},{"start":337,"end":344.387,"text":"賴清德在1月13號當選總統的時候勝選感言講到國會選舉民進黨沒有維持過半的席次是代表民進黨努力不夠的確有需求要檢討的地方主委您認為你有哪些地方要做檢討呢例如在我們"},{"start":363.764,"end":391.786,"text":"在您的任期結束之前,面對新一屆的國會改變自己的負面評價,您要做出哪一些改變呢?其實比如說像黨政軍的議題我們要不要處理那比如說我們換照制度要如何更確實、比較落實有些哪些東西要入法還有我們很多比如說事實查證的部分來講要如何去精進的議題那當然還有很多電信的議題因為時間的關係可能就沒有辦法跟委員一起一報告說明清楚我們在業務報告裡面會再跟委員說明清楚OK,那我希望可以在業務報告裡面看到,謝謝"},{"start":395.755,"end":397.764,"text":"好,謝謝邱若華委員的發言。"}]}},{"id":"149642","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149642","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300e53189f35021d29f7e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a611ba3abc993e12c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:54:16 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只有台灣人民覺得NCC有"},{"start":233.214,"end":236.438,"text":"我個人的感覺NCC是應該要保護媒體替老百姓要有公正媒體的作為"},{"start":254.397,"end":277.017,"text":"但是我跟你說啊 你做教授的時候你講這些話都舒適啊 我也支持啊但是你做主委所做的所作所為是反差太大 出入太大所以主委 我不愛跟你講這個 來接下來人家在講啦 台灣人講一句話啦因為我也知道 你也是"},{"start":278.198,"end":284.623,"text":"我現在要問我們主委我們主委你現在喔所有的官員裡面主委我跟你說喔你的滿意度是最低的"},{"start":306.564,"end":327.828,"text":"阿你齁對米阿反彈最大的就是你就是你所以主委我是提供這這是依法有計有數計的我要提供給你去做參考不要說齁陳耀祥以前教授大家尊敬他但是當了陳耀祥主委以後大家"},{"start":328.368,"end":355.344,"text":"說得這麼快會被淘汰,這樣就不好了你看這個資訊,中天新聞當然不是說好的嘛這不是中天啦這你剛才寫的中天新聞很清楚啦中廣也是這樣,我們不是要民調比賽民意代表就有義務要提醒你民意代表要提供資訊讓主委去作為你未來如何施政的一個參考所以我這是讓你做參考"},{"start":357.845,"end":383.308,"text":"接下來接下來有一個比較敏感但是事情都已經發生當初你在應徵NCC委員的時候有一個總統府密件那裡面寫說寫說什麼呢也就是說能配合處理中天有沒有這回事"},{"start":384.571,"end":390.755,"text":"沒有這個事情沒有這個事情我也是跟委員我看你媒體電話在寫沒有沒有沒有這有就有沒有就沒有你沒有的東西我也可是我會感覺是說無風不起浪啦但是沒關係事情過了但是總是要水落雛屍愛紅感覺說沒有你就要叫了為什麼你都不去候人我也感覺到很奇怪那這個也無所謂事情過後真的沒有這個事情真的沒有這個事情好"},{"start":412.848,"end":422.968,"text":"那我當然我一定相信你啦齁我一定相信你但是真的很多坊間包括媒體都議論紛紛啦"},{"start":424.878,"end":426.259,"text":"主席來來來主席來來主委來 我要再跟你請教一下剛才我們的同仁都有講啦"},{"start":446.508,"end":467.255,"text":"你們在訴訟NCC所有訴訟的案件比工程單位還多為什麼沒有沒有比工程單位還多好來你如果要逼這個我跟你說我跟你講喔五年前成長八倍的訴訟會為什麼我跟你說喔一千三百一千三百一十萬訴訟會"},{"start":470.037,"end":471.317,"text":"主委你們就要去檢討為什麼五年來你的訴訟會會這麼多來最後一個"},{"start":489.324,"end":504.087,"text":"中家案是大家的這個議論紛紛啊對不對好那沒有關係比較敏感的你們現在中家案已經開滑嘛阿為什麼只有開滑賣家阿買家都不需要"},{"start":504.448,"end":506.43,"text":"我拜託你下個禮拜或者你們重新寫的時候我拜託你"},{"start":522.842,"end":531.887,"text":"中加開華山立不開華你要解釋清楚同一個合約同一個案子同一個違規事實為什麼只開賣方那買方不開華我告訴你注意"},{"start":538.47,"end":539.551,"text":"我真的蠻期待你的陳教授"},{"start":554.98,"end":555.601,"text":"謝謝林國成委員"}]}},{"id":"149641","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149641","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300579d24902cb650497e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a6a44382e63844f4285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"09:44:15 - 09:52:53","影片長度":"00:08:38","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":518,"end_time":"2024-03-11T09:52:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T09:44:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":353,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（9時44分）謝謝召委，一樣請陳主委。"],["主席：陳主委請。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員早。"],["黃委員健豪：主委早。主委，先前一份媒體的報導跟專訪裡面，主委提到自己是待退弟兄，所以講話比較大聲，但是我要提醒一下，主委，你當過兵嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["黃委員健豪：對於待退弟兄是提醒5個字：老兵八字輕。最後這個階段雖然你即將要卸任，但是該做的事情還是要做。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["黃委員健豪：上週陳建仁院長在答復羅智強委員質詢的時候講說，他也認為新聞臺不應該由政府來關閉。我們要提到，其實這幾年大概最關注的就是中天新聞臺被NCC換照審查不過，當然它就關閉了，我想北高行也作出了相關的判決，當初也判決要撤銷這個處分。我想問一下，NCC對於北高行作為撤銷處分，你有什麼看法？你有什麼檢討？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們在上訴當中，而且我們認為法官對於我們評分的標準並沒有掌握得清楚，所以我們上訴到最高行政法院。"],["黃委員健豪：我想根據北高行的判決書裡面，法院在判決這個事情的時候都是依據你們NCC提供的標準，所以我們今天想問的是，為什麼法院的標準跟你NCC的標準有差異、認知差距這麼大？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這就是準用的問題，跟委員報告一下，法律上所謂準用到底是準用到什麼範圍、有沒有管制裁量的問題，我們認為這個是管制的……"],["黃委員健豪：主委，這就是我們今天為什麼不想讓你報告的原因，因為你看你今天講得出你們的理論基礎，但是我們看到那份簡報裡面，我們想問的是就執行狀況跟業務報告，你們是依據什麼去上訴？你們是依據什麼樣的理論再去跟北高行上訴一次？為什麼今天我們要講這件事情，因為你今天用的都是人民納稅錢，NCC編列了這麼多預算打官司，當初成立NCC是希望你們保障言論自由，包含剛剛委員也講到了，NCC組織法第一條就在保障言論自由……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告，相同的標準是一百多個案子都是這樣，不是只針對中天新聞臺，包括中天自己的中文台都是一樣的換照標準。"],["黃委員健豪：我同意啊！你說都是同樣標準，沒錯啊！但就同樣的標準，偏偏就有一家電視臺被關了嘛……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這是有相關程序去處理……"],["黃委員健豪：同樣地法院也不認同這樣的標準。所以我今天要講的是，今天你要上訴的話……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果不認同這樣的標準，那一百多個案子都不予換照，我看這整個市場就天下大亂了！"],["黃委員健豪：那就是要問你們的標準在哪裡嘛！為什麼同樣的標準……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就是同樣的標準嘛！"],["黃委員健豪：同樣標準？法院也不認同你今天這個標準！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以我們上訴……"],["黃委員健豪：你今天你要提上訴我們也不能有什麼意見，因為你是行政機關，你要做這樣的裁量，但是你今天要提出上訴的時候，你要對立法院來說明你用什麼標準，我們今天要看到的是內容，為什麼你還會去提上訴？我想你是法學專家啦，如果你今天是做法官的話，我也不確定你會怎麼判決，但今天的判決，除了這個換照案你在第一審的時候被撤銷裁決之外，其他有9個案子，我想你們也有勝，但是通常都是中天新聞勝……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有！沒有！"],["黃委員健豪：所以才有所謂的15連敗的問題！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有15連敗的問題，我們目前已經勝訴，包括確定的就已經14個案件，中天才勝訴2個案件，而且……"],["黃委員健豪：那這些案件現在有的一審也勝啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告……"],["黃委員健豪：現在一審也勝啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告一下，基本上來講，中天換照不是只有裁罰這個部分，其實最嚴重的是大股東介入整個新聞台，讓新聞台的內控……"],["黃委員健豪：如果你要講大股東介入新聞台，還有另外的案子啦，我想待會其他委員也會講，但是我今天先針對這個法院判決，我想瞭解……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，這是一個重要的議題啦！"],["黃委員健豪：我想瞭解NCC的態度，就像我剛剛提到的，主委，我要提醒，老兵八字輕，你今天竟然還是堅持要上訴，當然我們也只能尊重，但是我們要求你到底憑什麼、要依據什麼來說你要上訴？這個部分我要講的是，因為今天你上訴的時候並不是花你陳主委的錢，你今天上訴的經費是花NCC編列的人民納稅錢……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：中天也不是我的案子啊，中天是整個國家的案子，這是我們NCC……"],["黃委員健豪：對啊，是國家的案子，所以你應該受我們監督，今天才要求你要提報告出來嘛！今天為什麼不讓你上台報告，今天為什麼大家對你的報告不滿意，就是因為你的內容裡面完全沒有提到社會關注的幾個案子，不管是中天也好，不管是中嘉案也好，不管是三立新聞也好，鏡電視也好，在那份報告裡面完全都沒有，所以才急著進入詢答。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對於委員會的要求，我們會補充……"],["黃委員健豪：所以我們才要求你下一次還是要提一份完整的書面報告！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，OK！"],["黃委員健豪：主委，我再問你一件事情，當然這個東西是個猜想，你想想看，我們常講言論自由應該是要保障百分之百言論自由啊，你覺得如果今天鄭南榕在世的話，他還會去關中天電視台嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有真正百分之百的言論自由，如果你說殺人放火這種恐嚇的言論怎麼會是言論自由呢？"],["黃委員健豪：這違法嘛！這當然不是言論自由啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對啊，所以說……"],["黃委員健豪：你侵犯了人身安全，當然不是言論自由啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以言論自由要在合法的範圍內……"],["黃委員健豪：但言論自由，今天電台要怎麼樣殺人放火？你把這個不同言論、不同立場的電視台視為跟殺人放火一樣，你確定這是你要講的話嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有、沒有！跟委員報告，為什麼要事實查證跟公平原則，尤其事實查證部分為什麼會有裁罰的問題，就是說……"],["黃委員健豪：你的事實查證……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個事實查證會跟這個有關係……"],["黃委員健豪：來，主委，至少以這個個案來講，你的事實查證很多到後面都被法院判決否定了，就像我們剛剛提到的，如果今天任何一個人在電視台講話你就要去裁罰電視台的話，那我這樣講……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是！"],["黃委員健豪：如果今天像林右昌講那個事情，林右昌講錯話，這麼多電視台報導，如果今天我具名檢舉，難道你就要裁罰電視台嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有！我們是依照法定程序處理的，有人具名檢舉，我們都是依照相同的標準、相同的程序去處理這個案子，到時候罰不罰是有判斷的問題，所以我們有諮詢委員會，有所謂的……"],["黃委員健豪：你的判斷標準是什麼？是不是事實嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：事實，所以是認定的問題嘛！到法院也是一樣的……"],["黃委員健豪：那我就問你啊，林右昌講的那個是事實嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這我不曉得啊！因為基本上來講……"],["黃委員健豪：林右昌就承認他錯啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我也沒有承認他錯，這個要調查嘛，是不是事實這個就是要調查的問題。"],["黃委員健豪：所以他講了之後，他自己承認錯誤，如果今天有人檢舉，把他第一時間講到的言論送到NCC裡面，你會認定他是事實還是不是事實？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個我不曉得，這要由我們諮詢會去做認定，這個不是我認定……"],["黃委員健豪：所以今天以中天這個案子為例，在他的這些過程裡面，事實認定不認定是由誰認定？是由你們NCC認定還是由法院來認定？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員會來認定，然後我們還有所謂的外審……"],["黃委員健豪：那又回到我剛剛最一開始問的問題，在法院的判決裡面，NCC的很多裁決其實是敗訴的，所以我才想瞭解NCC對於這個敗訴的看法，那你們說還是要繼續上訴，所以我們再次的要求，今天這個話題到先到這邊，我的要求是既然你們NCC說要上訴，請問你上訴的原因是什麼，你應該要提供說明給本會的所有委員。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個我們會說明，這個本來就是我們應該要說明的部分。"],["黃委員健豪：你就沒有說明嘛！所以才要求你要說明嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，因為今天的專題報告要寫到什麼執行狀況，因為這可能不是個案，因為個案進行當中的部分……"],["黃委員健豪：我想NCC跟媒體互動是第一線的主管機關……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：在合法的範圍內跟委員說明清楚……"],["黃委員健豪：你應該很清楚當代社會上大家關心的議題是哪些重大案子，你們自己常常看、每天看媒體的報導，應該很清楚，大家都幫你整理好了，哪些大案子是社會所關注的，我們本來也期待在今天的報告裡面能夠看到，但是很可惜沒有。所以主委，我想待會所有的委員都會講……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們等一下會……"],["黃委員健豪：來，中天一定有這個案子嘛，中嘉的案子一定也是有嘛，鏡電視一定也有嘛，還有三立新聞的事情一定也有嘛……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：中嘉沒有申設換照的議題啦！中嘉不是申設換照的議題，如果說鏡電視，那是申設的問題沒有錯……"],["黃委員健豪：對啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那還有很多的議題，包括我們……"],["黃委員健豪：還有……系統台的問題，這個今天我沒辦法跟你花時間討論，因為剩下的時間不多，所以我要求你們在這個報告裡面應該具體的提出真正的作法，你們想要怎麼做，送來這邊審，我們立法院同不同意，大家願不願意接受這樣的說法。因為你有你的主張這沒問題，但是我們也有我們的主張，這叫做言論自由，你們有你們的主張，但是立法院的委員們不一定同意你的這個主張，雖然你要卸任了，但是程序是延續下去的，我們還是希望能夠有這個標準，能讓大家依循的標準，不是說今天這個主委覺得這樣子或委員會覺得這樣子，好像……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，我們是依法處理的。"],["黃委員健豪：標準就不一致了，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員的發言。","主委，國父孫中山先生歷經10次失敗後成功了，你們打官司輸了15次還繼續打啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們輸10次而已。"],["主席：你們還要打啊？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們還會繼續努力。"],["主席：那你們失敗的原因是什麼？我也不知道欸！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們會再做說明，但是這個就是一些比較法律專業的東西，如果委員有需要瞭解，我們會補充，謝謝。"],["主席：你們就投降吧，15次了，還要訴訟費費用，你錢很多是嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有啦！"],["主席：明年審預算，我把你的訴訟費全部都砍掉，你們自己出錢喔！哪有這樣搞的！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有啦，報告委員，我們沒有說那個，反正我們所編的相關訴訟費用就是這樣啦。"],["主席：黃委員剛才講了，你不要亂登嘛，盧秀燕委員根本沒有賣那麼多地，你寫那麼多地，你們要有一點舉證責任嘛，是不是？新聞有一點責任啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有、有、有，我們……"],["主席：你不要照登啊，那講誰跟誰通姦你也把他登上去啊，沒有這回事，你亂寫……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以要事實查證嘛！"],["主席：誰貪污，沒有貪污，你還寫上去，亂寫，你要有舉證的責任嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然、當然。"],["主席：好不好，你們注意一下，你們的新聞沒那麼自由欸！好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有啦，我們臺灣的新聞自由……"],["主席：別人在那邊登的話，你就搞死人家，你自己都沒事喔！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有、沒有，不是這樣子啦。"],["主席：好不好？好，你請坐。","下一位請林國成委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.531593750000003,"end":11.809718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.961593750000002,"end":12.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.193468750000001,"end":13.429718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.429718750000003,"end":13.446593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.20096875,"end":19.555343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.28096875,"end":31.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.992218750000006,"end":36.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.409093750000004,"end":52.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.01596875,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.032843750000005,"end":42.994718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.994718750000004,"end":43.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.09034375,"end":61.337843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.77659375,"end":66.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.42971875,"end":73.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.01096875,"end":82.60034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.36409375000001,"end":95.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.64471875000001,"end":106.39409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.63909375,"end":137.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.89596875,"end":145.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.03784375,"end":155.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.35846875000001,"end":146.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.30221875,"end":160.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.52909375000002,"end":199.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.84096875,"end":163.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.38909375,"end":167.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.10784375,"end":183.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.03784375,"end":199.17284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.17284375000003,"end":199.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.22346875000002,"end":199.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.61159375000003,"end":199.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.66221875000002,"end":199.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.69596875000002,"end":203.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.06721875000002,"end":221.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.11221875,"end":213.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.94159375,"end":251.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.74659375000002,"end":229.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.22721875000002,"end":229.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.30409375000002,"end":250.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.14784375000002,"end":251.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.51909375000002,"end":257.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.30346875,"end":278.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.46534375000005,"end":271.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.51596875,"end":272.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.96721875000003,"end":275.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.31659375000004,"end":279.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.81846875,"end":281.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.21471875000003,"end":283.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.03721875,"end":284.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.98221875,"end":287.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.55971875,"end":291.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.81659375000004,"end":305.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.58784375000005,"end":313.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.93596875000003,"end":322.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.86284375,"end":322.41096875},{"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主委先前的一份這個媒體的報導跟專訪裡面主委提到說這個自己是代退弟兄所以講話比較大聲但是我要提醒一下主委你當過兵嗎這個代退弟兄但是提醒五個字老兵八字親"},{"start":37.909,"end":65.675,"text":"這個最後這個階段雖然你即將要卸任但是該做的事情還是要做上週的時候這個我想陳建元院長在答覆這個羅志強委員資訊的時候講說他也認為這個新聞台不應該由政府來關閉那我們要提到其實這個這幾天大家最關注的就是這個中天新聞台被這個NCC這個換照審查不過那當然他就關閉了嘛那我想這個北高興也做出了相關的判決當初也判決說要撤銷這個處分"},{"start":67.455,"end":90.006,"text":"那我想問一下我們NCC對於北高型作為這個作為這個撤銷處分你有什麼看法你有什麼檢討我們這個在上訴當中而且我們認為法官對於我們這個評分的標準並沒有掌握得清楚所以我們上訴最高行政法院我想根據北高型的判決書裡面法院在判決這個事情的時候他都是依據你們NCC提供的標準"},{"start":90.726,"end":111.378,"text":"所以我們今天就想問的是說為什麼法院的標準跟你NCC的標準有差異認知這麼大這個就是說準用的問題我想我也跟委員報告一下法律上所謂準用到底是準用到什麼範圍這個有沒有管制財產的問題對 這就是我們今天為什麼不想讓你報告的原因因為你看你現在講得出你的理論基礎但是我們看到那一份簡報裡面"},{"start":112.759,"end":114.761,"text":"為什麼今天我們要講這個事情因為你今天用的都是人民納稅錢啊NCC編列了這麼多預算打官司當初成立NCC是希望你們保障言論自由這個是剛剛我們包含說剛剛委員也講到了NCC第一條"},{"start":137.44,"end":165.457,"text":"相同的標準是一百多個案子都是這樣不是只針對中天新聞台包括自己中天的中文台都是一樣的換照標準我同意啊你是說同樣標準沒錯啊但就同樣標準偏偏就有一台電台被關了嘛那法院其實同樣的法院也不認同這樣的標準所以我今天要講就是說今天你要上訴的話一百多個案子都被不被換照我看這個整個市場就天下大亂了那就是要問你們的標準哪裡嗎為什麼同樣的標準同樣標準法院也不認同你今天這個標準"},{"start":166.317,"end":186.158,"text":"所以我今天要求是說你今天你要提上訴我們也不能有什麼意見因為你是這個行政機關你要做這樣的裁量但是你今天要提出上訴的時候你要對立法院來說明你用什麼要標準我們今天要的看到是內容為什麼你還要提上訴我想你是法學專家啦這個如果你今天是做法官的話我也不確定你會怎麼判決"},{"start":186.758,"end":203.631,"text":"但今天的判決至少除了這個換照案你被第一審的時候你被撤銷裁決之外其他有九個案子我想沒有勝但是通常都是這個中天新聞來勝所以才有所謂的十五連敗的問題沒有十五連敗的問題我們目前已經勝訴報告要確定已經14個案件中天才勝訴兩個案件"},{"start":209.155,"end":232.888,"text":"那這些案件現在有的議審也剩啊?現在議審也剩啊?跟委員報告一下基本上來講中間換照不是只有裁法這個部分它其實最嚴重是大股東介入整個新聞台讓新聞台的內控如果你要講大股東介入新聞台還有另外案子我想待會其他委員會講但是我們今天先針對這個法院判決我想了解ACEC的這個態度就像我們剛剛提到的主委我要提醒啦老兵八字清啦"},{"start":233.528,"end":261.05,"text":"這個你今天竟然還是要堅持要上訴那當然我們也只能尊重但是我們要求你到底憑什麼要依據什麼來要求你要上訴那這個部分因為我要講今天你上訴的時候的經費並不是花你陳主委的錢啦你今天上訴的經費是花NCC編列的人民納稅錢中天也不是我的案子啦中天是整個國家的案子這是我們NCC所以你不是應該受我們監督今天才要求說你要提報告出來嗎今天為什麼不讓你上來報告今天為什麼大家對你的報告不滿意"},{"start":261.67,"end":287.689,"text":"就是你的內容裡面 完全沒有聽到社會關注的幾個不管是中天也好 不管是中加也好 不管是三立的議題目也好 今天事也好在那份報告裡面 完全都沒有所以才急著進去詢答 所以我們才要求說你下一次還是要提份 完整的書面報告那主委我再問你一件事情當然這個東西是個猜想你想想看 如果今天我們常常講言論自由 我們應該保障百分之百的言論自由"},{"start":288.61,"end":309.212,"text":"如果你覺得今天鄭楠榮在事的話他還會去關從電視台嗎沒有真正的百分之百的言論自由如果你說殺人放火這種恐嚇這種言論怎麼會是言論自由呢這違法嘛這當然不是言論自由啊你侵害了人身安全當然不是言論自由啊但言論自由今天電視台要怎麼樣殺人放火你把你把這個不同言論不同立場的電視台"},{"start":309.953,"end":332.206,"text":"市委跟殺人放火一樣你確定這是你要講的話嗎所以說為什麼要事實查證跟公平委員尤其事實查證部分為什麼會有裁法的問題你的事實查證來主委按照至少以這個個案來講你的事實查證很多到後面都被法院來判決否定了而且如果就像我們剛剛提到的如果今天任何一個人在電視台講話你就要去裁法電視台的話"},{"start":334.907,"end":336.028,"text":"你的判斷標準是什麼?是不是事實嗎?"},{"start":358.131,"end":381.101,"text":"〔廣東話〕"},{"start":381.341,"end":382.422,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":401.798,"end":403.46,"text":"這個本來就是我們應該要說明的部分"},{"start":426.52,"end":448.281,"text":"你就沒有說明嗎?所以才要求你要說明嗎?因為今天的專題報告要寫到什麼執行狀況：因為這個可能不是個案因為這個個案進行當中的部分在法律法的範圍的人也說明清楚應該也很清楚說當代這個社會上大家關心的議題是哪些重大的案子你們自己常常在看每天在看媒體的報導應該也很清楚大家都幫你整理好了"},{"start":449.002,"end":464.515,"text":"哪些大案子是這個社會所關注的那我們也本來期待在今天的報告裡面能夠看到但是很可惜沒有所以說我想主委我想待會大家所有的委員會講來中天一定是這個案子嘛中加案子一定也是有一定有嘛"},{"start":464.795,"end":494.031,"text":"禁電是一定也有嗎?還有三立新聞的事情一定也有嗎?中間還沒有申設換照的議題啦中間還不是申設換照的議題如果說禁電是那是申設的問題沒有那還有很多的議題同一個事情啊系統牌的問題啊這個今天我沒有辦法跟你花時間討論了因為剩下時間不多所以我是要求說你們在這個報告裡面應該具體的提出真正的做法你們想要怎麼做那送來這邊審我們立法院同不同意嗎大家願不願意接受這樣的說法嘛因為你有你的主張沒問題但是我們也有我們的主張這叫言論自由"},{"start":494.511,"end":494.671,"text":"謝謝黃健豪委員"}]}},{"id":"149640","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149640","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300f2bfd53a396ae66a7e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a680da92c86ab9bf975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"09:36:54 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09:44:05","影片長度":"00:07:11","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":431,"end_time":"2024-03-11T09:44:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T09:36:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":239,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（9時37分）麻煩請陳耀祥主委，謝謝。"],["主席：好，陳主委請。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：我想先問一下，因為今天衛星廣播電視公會有提出了一些訴求，包括要落實媒體自主、還有要修正一些不合時宜的廣電法規，我想問一下主委，你的態度是什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：目前廣電三法在我們內部討論當中，有修法的版本，所以這個對衛星……"],["葉委員元之：什麼時候送到我們院會？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：可能要等到下會期吧，因為4月底的時候就要提新的4個委員。"],["葉委員元之：主委，大家都知道科技日新月異，我想你當NCC主委應該非常清楚為什麼廣電三法要趕快修，就是因為數位匯流。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["葉委員元之：以數位匯流來講，現在你對電視的管制已經跟不上時代了，作為一個主委，我知道主委你也快退休了，不要有待退老兵的那種態度……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有……"],["葉委員元之：該做就要做，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們都在做當中。"],["葉委員元之：因為你也講不出一個時程。我今天就針對衛星公會提出的幾件事情跟你討論一下。NCC組織法第一條第一句話是什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：組織法第一條第一句話？"],["葉委員元之：對，你不知道？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就是黨政軍、媒體自主、保障言論……"],["葉委員元之：我是說第一句話，第一句話叫「落實憲法保障之言論自由」，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：保障言論自由。"],["葉委員元之：言論自由是擺在第一個，就是最重要，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["葉委員元之：什麼叫言論自由？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：言論自由就是人民有講話的自由。"],["葉委員元之：人民有講話的自由，包括他可以在很多平臺上講話，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是呀。"],["葉委員元之：所以你不能夠用莫須有的罪名去規範他，甚至不讓他有講話的權利，對吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有莫須有的問題。"],["葉委員元之：沒有莫須有的問題，但不能隨便就管制他，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們在法律授權範圍內。"],["葉委員元之：我想請教一下，無線廣播電視臺在國外一般管制的理論基礎是什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上叫稀有資源的使用。"],["葉委員元之：稀有資源，謝謝。稀有資源在1969年FCC的紅獅案已經被判是不合時宜了，你知道嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那是FCC的問題。"],["葉委員元之：因為NCC就是根據FCC來的嘛！我們NCC為什麼會學FCC？那是因為我們認為過去的行政院新聞局兼具行政院的化妝師，有可能會球員兼裁判，所以才成立了NCC，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["葉委員元之：所以它是從FCC來的。FCC現在都已經認為頻道稀有已經過時了，為什麼我們NCC還要這樣堅持呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上來講，頻道稀有的部分是在無線的部分，有線的如果是一般的衛星頻道……"],["葉委員元之：對，太好了！一般我們認為對於無線的管制要比有線嚴格，因為它有用到頻譜。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["葉委員元之：有線是一個商業機制、自己拉線，如果FCC都已經認為無線頻譜現在不需要管制，因為不稀有了，為什麼我們現在還要對於無線電視跟有線電視管制成這樣？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：頻譜的稀有性還是存在的，就是這麼多頻譜……"],["葉委員元之：但是它不是以這個為理論基礎去管制嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個當然有不同的看法，這是不同看法……"],["葉委員元之：我其實也不是要跟你討論無線電視，因為剛剛我們講的是衛星電視，衛星電視大部分都是在有線電視上架，有線電視以前在數位科技不發達的時候是100個頻道，現在最多可以到幾個頻道？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：大概三百多個頻道。"],["葉委員元之：科技日新月異，可能不只，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["葉委員元之：所以到五、六百個頻道都有可能，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果頻道數過多的話都有可能。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！所以基本上在這樣頻道稀有已經不存在的情況之下，我個人認為你用現行的廣電法規去管那些頻道已經不合時宜了。特別是如果再用一些先射箭再畫靶的方式去關一家電視臺，我認為是非常不恰當……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，這沒有牽涉先射箭再畫靶的問題。"],["葉委員元之：我接下來就跟你討論這家電視臺。當初主委你關中天電視臺的記者會我也看了，你開宗明義講的就是因為它受到檢舉非常多，還有就是它被裁罰很多，對不對？違規了25件。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：還有內控機制失靈。"],["葉委員元之：內控機制失靈是後面，你之前講的是違規比較多，對吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：違規也很多。"],["葉委員元之：第一個，檢舉的部分，我個人認為非常不合理，今天如果我要讓一家電視臺關閉的話，我動員人家去檢舉那家電視臺，就成為你NCC關臺的標準吔！第二，你所謂的裁罰25件，剛剛委員也問了，15件NCC已經敗訴了！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有15件敗訴……"],["葉委員元之：15件已經敗訴！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，中天只贏2件，我們是14件勝訴或確定……"],["葉委員元之：我是說訴訟當中的敗訴……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：還有10件……"],["葉委員元之：你有上訴我知道……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：只有10件而已喔！"],["葉委員元之：你有上訴我知道……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有……"],["葉委員元之：不管10件、15件，你都是很多嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有……"],["葉委員元之：你都是很多嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有很多，你一直……說到上訴……"],["葉委員元之：那你的標準根本很不一樣欸！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有啦，我都是……"],["葉委員元之：這都是民脂民膏欸！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個是訴訟法的問題，要跟委員講清楚……"],["葉委員元之：主委，我就跟你討論其中一件，好不好？請問一下，有1件是這樣，有一個名嘴叫謝寒冰，他評論農委會失職、陳吉仲是最差的主委，因為針對九孔的價格，農委會居然用市價來講產地價，你知道嗎？你知道這個事嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個是有沒有落實事實查證的問題？"],["葉委員元之：當然有啊！法院認為有啊……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那是你的……"],["葉委員元之：重點是那個是名嘴講的話，你怎麼會去罰電視臺呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，製播新聞……"],["葉委員元之：我想請教你，林右昌你認識吧？內政部部長你認識吧？你朋友吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：認識，當然認識。"],["葉委員元之：林右昌曾經公開指控盧秀燕，說盧秀燕是賣地王，因為盧秀燕在5年賣了37.5萬的地，對吧？結果實際上是5萬。林右昌你不罰他，你去罰報導林右昌說這句話的電視臺，合理嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我們沒有任何的檢舉案說林右昌……"],["葉委員元之：所以只要有人去檢舉這件事情……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們當然依法去處理啊！"],["葉委員元之：就要罰那個報導林右昌的電視臺喔？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，我們是有法定程序的問題，人家檢舉，我們依法定程序處理。"],["葉委員元之：不是啦，主委，所以你的意思是說，如果有人檢舉，你要去罰報導林右昌的電視臺嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，我是說依法去處理。"],["葉委員元之：不是，你是先射箭再畫靶嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我沒有先射箭再畫靶……"],["葉委員元之：另外，有一個農民說文旦丟到曾文溪200萬噸，結果是他口誤了，應該是200萬斤，然後你罰它，你說什麼？也是因為沒有事實查證，是吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個是事實查證的問題。"],["葉委員元之：2分鐘就更正了啦！2分鐘就更正了啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，我們的法定程序上有很多，事實上……"],["葉委員元之：主委，如果隨便一個人口誤就要罰那個報導的電視臺，我們覺得太可怕了，誰沒有口誤過啊！賴清德口誤過，賴清德把賴品妤講成賴百妤欸！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是，委員，你剛剛講柚子那個案子，我們是勝訴確定喔！"],["葉委員元之：他把下架吳斯懷說成下架吳思瑤，誰沒有口誤過……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個不是只有口誤的問題……"],["葉委員元之：我跟你講，主委，我剛剛問你的其實非常清楚，我非常清楚，第一……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：你要看內容脈絡的問題……"],["葉委員元之：我時間也到了，不要占用人家時間太久。第一，現在你們管制媒體的理論基礎已經不在了；第二，網路時代，所有的人都可以透過電視去接網路，實際上現在很多網路的影響力跟衛星電視相比都差不多了啦……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們是在執行大院的法律……"],["葉委員元之：第三，現在你如果可以用關臺的方式來箝制言論自由、你射箭再畫靶、沒有標準的話……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有關臺的問題。"],["葉委員元之：臺灣就沒有言論自由，這已經違反你NCC組織法第一條保障人民言論自由……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們是落實貴院的換照制度啦！"],["葉委員元之：我希望主委你還有3個月的時間，我的主張是要廢除NCC換照的權力……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那是法律修法的問題……"],["葉委員元之：你不能夠關一家新聞臺，這真的是箝制到新聞自由，謝謝！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那是法律修法的問題，沒有言論自由的問題。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","下一位請黃健豪委員發言。本席先宣告，我們目前有收到臨時提案，大概10點半休息以後來處理臨時提案，謝謝。請繼續。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","ag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基本上來講他頻道稀有那個部分是在無線的部分有線的那個如果說一般衛星平台那這太好了齁一般我們是認為說對於無線的管制要比有線嚴格嘛因為他有用到頻譜嘛那有線是一個商業機制自己拉線嘛那如果FCC都已經認為無線頻譜現在不需要管制因為不稀有了"},{"start":167.108,"end":175.375,"text":"那為什麼我們現在還要對於無線電視跟有線電視的管制怎麼樣但是他不是以這個為理論基礎去管制嗎那我現在我其實不是要跟你討論無線電視啦因為剛剛我們講的是衛星電視衛星電視是大部分都是在有線電視上架嘛那現在有線電視以前在數位科技不發達的時候是100個頻道嘛那現在最多可以到幾個頻道"},{"start":191.309,"end":218.528,"text":"有大概300多個頻道喔300多個嘛那科技日新月異可能不止嘛對不對所以有可能大概五六百個頻道都可能嘛你如果頻道數過多的話都可能那所以基本上在這樣子頻道稀有已經不存在的情況之下我個人認為你現在用現行的廣電法規去管那些頻道已經不合時宜了特別是特別是如果說再用一些先設建再劃把的方式去關一家電視台我認為是非常不恰當沒有沒有"},{"start":219.408,"end":244.654,"text":"那我接下來就跟你討論這家電視台嘛我剛才電視台嘛當初主委你關中天電視台的記者會我也看了啦你開宗明義講的就是因為他受到檢舉非常多還有就是他被裁罰很多對不對違規了25件嘛還有內控機制失明內控機制後面啦你之前講的是你之前講的是違規比較多嘛對吧違規也很多第一個喔檢舉的部分我個人認為非常不合理啦"},{"start":245.014,"end":260.226,"text":"今天如果說我要讓一家電視台關閉的話我動員人家去檢舉那家電視台就成為你NCC關台的一個標準欸第二你所謂的裁罰25件剛剛委員也問了啊15件NCC已經敗訴了欸沒有15件敗訴15件已經敗訴沒有沒有沒有中天只贏兩件我們是14件勝訴"},{"start":264.83,"end":282.742,"text":"我是說訴訟當中的訴訟當中的敗訴你有上訴我知道你有上訴我知道10件15件你都是很多嘛你都是很多嘛那你的標準根本很不一樣欸這都是名子名高欸主委主委我都跟你討論其中一件好不好"},{"start":283.542,"end":303,"text":"請問一下有一件是這樣的有一個民主叫謝寒冰他評論說農委會失職陳吉仲是最差的主委因為針對九孔的價格農委會居然用市價來講產地價你知道嗎知道這是嗎這有沒有落實事實查證的問題當然有啊法院認為有啊重點是說那是民主講的話嘛你怎麼會去罰電視台呢"},{"start":306.863,"end":312.127,"text":"林宥昌曾經公開去指控盧秀燕說盧秀燕賣帝王因為盧秀燕在五年的時候賣了37.5萬的帝對吧結果實際上是5萬那林宥昌你不罰他然後你去罰報導林宥昌這句話的電視台合理嗎所以只要有人去檢舉這件事情你就要罰報導林宥昌的電視台喔"},{"start":333.104,"end":333.985,"text":"兩分鐘就更正了啦"},{"start":357.948,"end":383.358,"text":"兩分鐘就更正了啦主委你如果說隨便一個人口誤就要罰那個電視台我們這太可怕了誰沒有口誤過啊賴清德也口誤過啊賴清德把賴品瑜講成賴柏宇欸你剛才講又拿到他說我們是勝訴確定他說下架無私謠下架無私謠誰沒有口誤過我跟你講主委我剛剛講他的看點心非常清楚非常清楚第一因為我時間有點到不要佔我時間太久第一"},{"start":385.559,"end":413.131,"text":"現在你們管制媒體的理論基礎已經不在了第二網路時代所有的人都可以透過電視去接網路啦實際上現在很多網路的影響力比衛星電視沒有說都差不多了啦然後第三現在你如果說可以用關台的方式來前置言論自由你先設建再發法沒有標準的話台灣就沒有言論自由這已經違反你NCC組織法第一條保障人民言論自由我們是落實對院都換照制度你還有三個月"},{"start":414.872,"end":414.992,"text":"葉元之"}]}},{"id":"149639","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149639","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300b03bef0c4f6d30fa7e24220554cbe99af8ba9b0039caa7a6af8d720157a301b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"09:25:21 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09:36:47","影片長度":"00:11:26","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":686,"end_time":"2024-03-11T09:36:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T09:25:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":113,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（9時25分）主席、各位委員，還有NCC的官員們，大家好。我是翁曉玲，先請陳主委。"],["主席：陳主委請。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員早。"],["翁委員曉玲：陳主委早，陳主委今天一開始還沒有進行正式的詢答，大家在程序發言的時候就已經針對NCC的業務報告還有專題報告提了非常多的意見，我在這邊想請教陳主委，您認為來立法院進行業務報告的意義是什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：接受國會的監督。"],["翁委員曉玲：那要讓立法院有什麼樣的內容可以監督？您認為業務報告的內容該是些什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上把我們過去做的還有未來想做的事情說明清楚。"],["翁委員曉玲：請問這些業務報告跟專題報告，在送到立法院之前有經過陳主委的核定嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上我有初步看過了，因為最近立法院在開議當中，所以我有初步看過而已，不足的地方、各位委員指教的地方，我們會虛心接受，然後把它補充得更詳細。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，如果這兩份報告都是經過主委核定、參閱過才送到立法院的話，我必須說您真的是太藐視我們立法院了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，我們沒有藐視，如果寫得不好，我們儘量補充。"],["翁委員曉玲：我要講一下，我們對比了您今天送的今年度業務報告和上個會期11月份時最後一次的業務報告，標題全部一樣，頁數也一樣，就連結語都一模一樣，我非常仔細的看了兩個版本的不同，頂多是你們去年下半年跟今年的出國活動不同，然後裡面部分的日期有些修改。更誇張的是，上個會期再上一次的報告，同樣的每一次的報告標題都一樣、內容也都一樣，我不知道您到底是怎麼樣帶領NCC的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，這個……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們當大學教授都知道，如果學生每一次的作業都是寫一模一樣，我出不同的問題，結果他寫的作業都是一模一樣，這樣子的報告基本上我會退回請他重寫，甚至給他不及格。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，這個是業務架構的部分，本來監理機關的業務就是持續性的，當然委員在各方面的指教，有需要改進的部分我們會去改進，但因為它本來就有延續性，所以架構是一樣的。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，謝謝您的說明。業務架構一樣，其實我們都知道，但是你報告的內容、你的標題、你的重點會不一樣，而不是說你就是架構一成不變，那你乾脆告訴我說你直接寫廣電三法就好了，你只要寫個電信管理法就好了，什麼叫做你的業務架構？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：每一年的資料不一樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我想請教主委，您在NCC 8年，擔任NCC主委5年多，擔任委員2年多，請問在這8年裡面，您認為您最重要的建樹是什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：很多啊！包括以電信部分來講，比如5G的建設、電信事業的合併、廣電秩序的建立，還有公平上下架的維持等等。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。我想大家可能不會認為這些是您的建樹，一想到您的建樹，不外乎就是把中天新聞台下架，然後護航鏡新聞台申設……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這些都是依法處理……"],["翁委員曉玲：然後再把華視新聞台上架到52台……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這是強化公廣集團的功能。"],["翁委員曉玲：還有放任三立入股中嘉，我想這是一般社會大眾想到您在NCC主委任內做過什麼事情，我覺得這是蠻重要的印象。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：公廣集團……"],["翁委員曉玲：今天既然不審你提的業務報告跟專題報告，接下來我們就來做些口試好了。請問在整個換照程序的部分，關於諮詢委員會議，目前的委員名單你們有公開嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然沒有公開。"],["翁委員曉玲：為什麼不公開？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員他本來是基於專業的參與，我們要保護委員、避免外面的壓力啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。諮詢委員會議現在已經法制化了，明定在衛星廣播電視法裡面，所有法制化的諮詢會議的委員名單都要公開，包含訴願會、法規會、人權保障委員會等等……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，基本上來講這沒有公開的問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：我認為你不公開、你不敢公開諮詢委員會的名單，代表你是……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，這是對專家，政府資訊公開法也規定有些東西……"],["翁委員曉玲：請尊重我的質詢權，我已經再三強調，我不希望你跟我搶答。我要說的是諮詢委員會議的委員名單不公開，就代表在這中間你安插自己的人，你不敢讓這些諮詢委員以權責相符的態度公開自己所做的評斷，所以我在這邊呼籲並要求你們公開諮詢委員會議的名單。另外，北高行判決之後，撤銷NCC的處分，請問你們有做什麼處理嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員是問哪一件？"],["翁委員曉玲：中天新聞台。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們上訴了啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：好，你們上訴了，你們有仔細的閱讀北高行判決嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然有啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：它裡面怎麼說？你們109年的一般頻道換照審查評分標準還在嗎？還適用嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個我們向來都一樣，評分標準都是一樣的，包括像中天的綜合台或其他新聞台的都是一樣的。"],["翁委員曉玲：北高行判決裡面講得非常清楚，你們109年的一般頻道換照審查評分標準，就是違反了換照審查辦法……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，這是……"],["翁委員曉玲：可是你們卻沒有檢討，而且一意孤行還在適用，我認為這是非常糟糕的一件事情。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個我們沒有辦法接受，所以我們上訴了。"],["翁委員曉玲：而且不要忘記了，北高行法院判決裡面還有提到，你們準備好了國賠79億嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那個已經被駁回了，那個部分……"],["翁委員曉玲：針對國家賠償的部分，你們有心理準備嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那個北高行已經駁回了，那個部分……"],["翁委員曉玲：如果這個案子到了最高法院判決，你們敗訴之後，陳主委，你要負連帶賠償責任嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有這個問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：你是主責，為什麼會沒有問題？為什麼沒有問題？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果委員看清楚，北高行已經把這個部分駁回了。"],["翁委員曉玲：現在北高行法院已經宣判你們……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們在上訴當中，這個確定的問題……"],["翁委員曉玲：第一，處分已經被撤銷……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：而且我們在依法處理當中……"],["翁委員曉玲：現在縱使在上訴，並不代表你們沒有敗訴的可能……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然都有可能。"],["翁委員曉玲：難道NCC內部都沒有準備、都沒有思考嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然我們都會處理，這我們都會依法去處理……"],["翁委員曉玲：如果你們真的敗訴，事後就會面臨國家賠償，當你們要賠79億的時候，你要負擔賠償責任嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：一樣，我們都是依法處理這個問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：針對這部分，我希望NCC回去之後要好好趕快做一些準備。","另外還有針對鏡新聞台的部分，你們當時給了鏡新聞12項負擔，12項的保留許可廢止權，你們有一一去查核他們是否做到了嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這都在條件裡面。"],["翁委員曉玲：請問一下，鏡新聞台現在有駐外記者嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：什麼叫駐外記者？你是說駐外國的記者嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：是的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我請內容處處長……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以主委你連你自己做的處分、你做的負擔你都不知道？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個有些是庶務性的部分，我們當然是由內容處……"],["翁委員曉玲：這是庶務性嗎？這麼重要的事情，你今天課予業者這麼重要的義務和負擔，你竟然會忘記……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對啊！日常在監理，本來就庶務性的事。當然啊！所以我跟委員說請我們內容處處長來跟委員報告嘛！"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你做了這麼多的負擔、做了這麼多的附附款，這有什麼意義？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有啊！當然有啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：對你而言，那可能只是一個型式上……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個就是我們監理的要件……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那請業務單位回答。"],["林處長慧玲：我們都會固定有一些是負擔、有一些是保留許可……"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在是問鏡電視新聞台他們有駐外記者了嗎？他們每年的駐外經費有提供給NCC去查核嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：駐外經費沒有啊！就沒有這個問題啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有？請你回去好好看一下你們所做的附負擔。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有查核駐外經費的問題啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：你們沒有叫它提供嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有啊！駐外記者的經費，這個部分沒有吧！"],["翁委員曉玲：我真的希望NCC回去好好看看你們當時做了什麼附負擔，你們可以這樣子放縱鏡新聞台，這代表你們就是護航，你們寫了一大堆的負擔、寫了一大堆的附附款，根本沒有意義！那個只是作秀而已，只是讓大家覺得你們好像有給予鏡新聞台一些……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，沒有喔！包括以最近來講的話，像所謂製播政論節目，我們都有去處理喔！"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在講的不是這個，我現在講的是你們所講的每一個負擔它到底有沒有做好？因為時間的關係……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以這是日常監理的問題啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：我想今天還有很多的委員要質詢，所以我希望是不是可以請主席裁示，請NCC將鏡新聞台所有附附款執行狀況的各項紀錄以及證明……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我跟委員說明一下，駐外……"],["翁委員曉玲：不好意思，現在是我在講，不是你在說……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我跟委員說明嘛！"],["翁委員曉玲：你不用跟我說明了，我的時間不夠了！麻煩待會兒請主席裁示，會後請NCC將鏡新聞台附附款所有執行狀況的各項紀錄以及證明，都要送到立法院給每個委員參考，以上，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：要送什麼？"],["主席：陳主委，他說你要把今後針對這個新聞台的部分要送給委員參考。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果是個案，又有營業祕密的部分，我們沒有辦法這樣送。"],["翁委員曉玲：這有什麼營業祕密？請問這有什麼營業祕密？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這當然有營業秘密啊！人家公司的預算執行，這不是營業祕密？我想這委員應該很清楚嘛！"],["翁委員曉玲：這涉及公益，這不是營業祕密……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這涉及公益，如果這樣的話，那每一家公司的預算……"],["翁委員曉玲：你去看看政府資訊公開法裡面怎麼樣規定，你不要跟我辯！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這不是辯的問題嘛！"],["翁委員曉玲：你現在不用再說！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是辯的問題嘛！"],["主席：翁委員是針對重點的部分啦！"],["翁委員曉玲：是，就是鏡新聞台……"],["主席：你要每一樣送來的話，確實有點狀況……"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有，我只是要求針對鏡新聞台所做的12項負擔以及12項附保留廢止權，現在鏡新聞台的執行狀況如何……"],["主席：鏡新聞啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們事後的，我們會要求……"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在是要確定到底陳主委有沒有護航鏡新聞台。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：事後監督……"],["主席：可以嗎？鏡新聞的12項負擔。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：每一個所謂負擔的部分，我們可以把……"],["翁委員曉玲：你不敢提就代表你理虧，你根本沒有去查核，你心虛！我希望你可以在會後的一個禮拜之內趕快提送。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：在合法的範圍內我們會提供。"],["翁委員曉玲：理論上來講，你每3個月都要去查核一次，3個月的紀錄你有做出來嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們都有在進行啦！"],["主席：陳主委，會後也向翁委員說明一下，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：不只是向我說明，在場有很多委員也都很關心，所以要把所有報告書送給立法院每個委員一份。"],["主席：你現在要確認一下他要的是什麼。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們要確認委員要送什麼，而且什麼東西要去處理的問題，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝翁委員的發言。","下一位請葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-3","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","黃健豪","許智傑","林沛祥","翁曉玲","葉元之","邱若華","林俊憲","傅崐萁","徐富癸","徐巧芯","羅智強","蔡其昌","林德福","魯明哲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","陳俊宇","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","吳春城","陳昭姿","黃國昌","麥玉珍","游顥","王鴻薇","何欣純","廖先翔","陳素月"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請國家通訊\n傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥就「廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.9040937500000001,"end":2.2415937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.59534375,"end":7.152218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.164718750000002,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.62846875,"end":12.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.176593750000002,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.649093750000002,"end":14.172218750000003},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麼處理嗎"},{"start":338.885,"end":361.47,"text":"我以為是問哪一件中天新聞台我們上訴了你們上訴了你們有仔細的閱讀北高型判決嗎當然有啊是然後呢他要他裡面怎麼說你們的109年的一般頻道換照審查評分標準還在嗎還適用嗎這個我們都像的都一樣這個評分標準都是一樣的包括各種像中天的中二台或是其他新聞台的方式都一樣"},{"start":362.776,"end":384.356,"text":"北高型判決裏面講得非常清楚你109年的一般頻道換照審查評分標準就是違反了這個換照審查辦法可是你們卻沒有檢討而且還這個一意孤行還在試用我認為說這個是非常糟糕的一件事情而且不要忘記了北高型法院判決裏面還有在講"},{"start":386.601,"end":403.077,"text":"你們準備好了國賠79億嗎?針對國家賠償的部分你們有心理準備嗎?如果說這個案子到了最高刑法院判決你們敗訴之後陳主委你要負連帶賠償責任嗎?你是主責為什麼會沒有這個問題?為什麼沒有這個問題?現在北高興法院"},{"start":409.924,"end":413.668,"text":"已經宣判你們的署份已經被撤銷現在縱使在上訴並不代表你們沒有敗訴的可能難道NCC內部都沒有準備都沒有思考嗎如果說你們真的敗訴之後就不加賠償"},{"start":427.545,"end":429.106,"text":"請問一下你們近新聞台現在有駐外記者嗎?"},{"start":456.411,"end":473.581,"text":"什麼叫駐外記者?你說駐外國的記者嗎?來,我們那個請那個來,我們那個內容處處長所以主委你連你自己做的處分你做的負擔你都不知道這是事務性嗎?這是這麼重要你今天科語業者一個這麼重要的義務為什麼負擔?你既然你就會忘記所以說我跟委員講說請我們內容處處長跟委員報告所以你做了這麼多的負擔做了這麼多的付款這有什麼意義?對你而言那可能只是一個"},{"start":485.247,"end":488.408,"text":"我現在問就是說進電視新聞台他們有駐外記者了嗎?他們每年的駐外經費有提供給你NCC去查核嗎?"},{"start":512.332,"end":517.335,"text":"我真的希望NCC你回去好好看看你們當時做了什麼付負擔你們可以這樣子這個放縱"},{"start":537.745,"end":538.847,"text":"委員沒有 我們每一個"},{"start":552.645,"end":579.955,"text":"包括我們最近來講的話像所謂自播所謂爭論節目這個我們都有去處理我現在講的不是這個我現在講的是你每一個負擔他到底有沒有做好因為時間的關係我想今天還有很多的委員要質詢所以我希望是不是可以請主席才是請NCC將進新聞台的所有付款的執行狀況的各項紀錄以及證明不好意思現在是我在講不是你在說你不用跟我說明了我的時間不夠了"},{"start":581.255,"end":603.295,"text":"麻煩待會請主席裁示會後請NCC將新聞台的付款所有的執行狀況的各項記錄以及證明都要送到立法院給每個委員參考以上謝謝要送什麼他說你要把這個今後你對這個新聞台的部分你要送給委員參考"},{"start":604.478,"end":611.063,"text":"如果是個案有營業秘密的話我們沒有辦法這樣送請問這有什麼營業秘密這涉及公益這不是營業秘密你去看看資訊公開政府資訊公開法裡面怎麼樣規定你不要跟我變我現在不用再說"},{"start":625.032,"end":630.055,"text":"我只是要求針對禁新聞台裡面的所做的12項負擔以及12項負保留廢紙權現在禁新聞台的執行狀況如何我現在是要確定到底陳主委有沒有護航禁新聞台"},{"start":651.246,"end":651.907,"text":"我們都有在進行啦,我們都有在進行"},{"start":670.49,"end":684.599,"text":"會委鄉公署也說明一下好不好好謝謝謝謝不是只是像我說你因為我在場很多的委員都很關心所以要所有的報告書送立法院每個委員一份說明要確認委員要送什麼而且什麼東西要去處理的問題好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149638","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149638","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43005688a4573bca2102aea18303c979697ef8ba9b0039caa7a69acd615108665c815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"10:08:28 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10:19:50","影片長度":"00:11:22","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-5"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":682,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:19:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:08:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":510,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（10時8分）主席，請秘書長。"],["主席：有請李秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：傅委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：這樣子對談有沒有比較輕鬆一點？"],["李秘書長俊俋：因為我第8屆的時候也是這樣，然後第9屆改了，所以我都適應。"],["傅委員崐萁：蠻好的。請問秘書長，監察院自古以來叫御史大夫，這是非常、非常重要的，它負責對於所有官員的考評、官箴、官德所有的查詢，要為一個國家樹立好文官制度，監察院是非常重要的查核單位，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：監察院是一個重要的憲政機關，我們處理的就是公務員的違法失職。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，現在行政院片面宣布從6月1號開始，臺灣不能組團客赴大陸，臺灣人民依照中華民國憲法有沒有遷徙的自由？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟委員報告，這個部分屬於政策的討論，監察院不便有任何意見，政策的討論是行政院跟立法院的事情，監察院不便有任何意見。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席在問你中華民國人民有沒有遷徙的自由，你講到哪裡去嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：當然有遷徙的自由，自由旅行也可以啊。"],["傅委員崐萁：對呀，既然有遷徙的自由，為什麼中華民國人民不能組團去全世界他想去的地方呢？"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以我跟傅委員報告的是，這個牽涉到政策的討論，這個政策討論是由行政院跟立法院你們討論，監察院不便有任何的意見。我們現在也沒有接受到任何的陳情案。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以你剛剛已經承認了中華民國人民有遷徙的權利……"],["李秘書長俊俋：本來就有，憲法都有規定了。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以行政院這個片面的政策很明顯就是違憲的。"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個不能這樣講，政策的討論由行政院跟立法院來處理，謝謝。"],["傅委員崐萁：沒關係，我謝謝你剛剛已經回答了本席的問題。","再過來，蘇丹紅的問題剛剛羅委員有提到很多，2018年在我們的邊檢就已經查出來，不但沒有沒入銷毀，還把它退回，這個是高雄地檢署發布的訊息；再加上民進黨有好幾位委員都表示，蘇丹紅早在2021年、2023年衛福部就已經知道了，為什麼還造成現在陳建仁院長宣布這已經是一個系統性的風暴、系統性的問題。請問一下秘書長，海關有沒有人謀不臧？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟傅委員報告，2018年監察院並沒有有關蘇丹紅的調查，蘇丹紅的調查是上個禮拜我們有委員自動調查，我們監察院只能查這樣……"],["傅委員崐萁：本席現在沒有請教你監察院有沒有失職，你不要緊張嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我沒有緊張。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席沒有問你是不是失職，你不要這麼緊張，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我一點也沒有緊張，我只是報告事實。"],["傅委員崐萁：你立法委員的個性又上身了，是嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我只是報告事實……"],["傅委員崐萁：你現在是秘書長欸，好不好？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，我跟傅委員報告事實。"],["傅委員崐萁：請和顏悅色一下，好不好？"],["李秘書長俊俋：謝謝。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席還沒有講完，你不要講得……"],["李秘書長俊俋：不好意思，我沒有講什麼。"],["傅委員崐萁：第一個，本席問你，如果高雄地檢署說的屬實，海關有沒有失職？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分我們都在調查中，調查中的案子我不便發表任何意見。"],["傅委員崐萁：衛福部有沒有失職？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我不便發表任何意見。"],["傅委員崐萁：地檢署偵查不公開都已經講了，你們監察院什麼時候變成不公開的單位？"],["李秘書長俊俋：傅委員，我跟您報告……"],["傅委員崐萁：我不曉得陽光照不進來喔！你們監察院連陽光都照不進來……"],["李秘書長俊俋：傅委員，我跟您報告，這是調查中的案子，作為幕僚長，我本來就不能有任何批評。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席現在請教你，第一個，海關；第二個，衛福部早就知情，為什麼還造成這種系統性、這麼大的風暴？再過來，食藥署說：哎呀，臺灣人民沒有關係，蘇丹紅就跟喝茶、喝咖啡一樣。這實在有夠誇張！秘書長，你們這個調查報告什麼時候可以出來？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們上個禮拜自動調查。"],["傅委員崐萁：大概什麼時候可以出來？"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟它的性質有關，我們要看是一般案件、重大案件或是特殊重大案件。"],["傅委員崐萁：大概多久？關係到全民健康的問題嘛！食安問題何等重要啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：如果是一般案件的話是3個月，重大案件是6個月，特殊重大案件是1年，我們有分3類，要看調查委員。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席請教一下，這麼簡單的案子屬於哪一種案子？你告訴本席。"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分要由委員來決定，不是由我來決定。"],["傅委員崐萁：秘書長，依照你的經驗，你都做到秘書長了，監察院秘書長判斷不出來嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：各個委員對每一個個案有不同的意見，我不便表達任何意見。"],["傅委員崐萁：你的意思是說要拖1年，是嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我不懂……"],["傅委員崐萁：這個算是國家重大案件嗎？有這麼難查嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：就這個部分，我跟傅委員報告，監察院監察委員依憲法獨立行使職權，作為一個幕僚長，我不便做任何的評斷，他們要列為一般案件、重大案件或是特殊重大案件，這不是我的權責。"],["傅委員崐萁：你到立法院來報告，你不能一問三不知嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我沒有一問三不知，我很清楚地告訴委員監察院的規定是什麼。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，本席就靜候，看你們辦案的能力有沒有像辦羅智強立委這麼快。本席就看你是3個月、6個月、還是1年辦出來，我們拭目以待。","再過來，陸配4年入籍還是6年入籍，4加2是6年，一般的外配是3加1、4年。我們現在請教一下，如果陸配由6年改為跟所有外籍配偶一樣是4年，這樣符不符合國際人權的兩公約？符不符合？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我回應傅委員兩個意見。第一個，我們不因膚色、階級、貧窮或富貴有任何的差別，這是一個；第二個，陸配跟外配適用是法規是不一樣的，陸配是適用兩岸人民關係條例……"],["傅委員崐萁：兩岸人民關係條例嘛！本席很清楚啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，外配的話是移民法，所以兩個本來就不一樣，相關的規定也會不同，兩個東西放在一起……"],["傅委員崐萁：相關規定就是因為可以調整嘛！大院可以修法、可以調整啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：修法是立法院的事情……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以本席在問你有沒有符合兩公約啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：修法是立法院的事情。"],["傅委員崐萁：有沒有人權平等的問題啊！有沒有國籍平權的問題啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，我跟委員報告，如果要平等，到底平等的定義是什麼？我們現在最重要的就是追求不論膚色、階級、所有的平等……"],["傅委員崐萁：本席剛剛請教您的是有沒有符合國際人權兩公約，有還是沒有？"],["李秘書長俊俋：適用的法規不同，我無法跟傅委員做明確的表達。"],["傅委員崐萁：你連國際兩公約對人權的基本保障，秘書長，你都判斷不出來！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我沒有判斷不出來。"],["傅委員崐萁：汗顏啦！汗顏啦！汗顏啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：傅委員，我跟您講得很清楚……"],["傅委員崐萁：五院院長的秘書長，國際人權公約你回去再study，本席下次還會請教你！本席下次還會請教你！"],["李秘書長俊俋：傅委員，我跟您表示得很清楚，我想你立法委員當這麼久，你很清楚兩岸人民關係條例跟移民法是不一樣的。"],["傅委員崐萁：再問你……"],["李秘書長俊俋：你拿不一樣的東西來比較……"],["傅委員崐萁：打詐現在越打越詐，到底我們的國家現在失能的程度到什麼狀況？監察院還在睡覺嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有睡覺，監察院很清楚地跟行政院表達……"],["傅委員崐萁：還是如同李登輝先生講的，都在「打蚊子」，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有，打詐的部分，監察院在上次行政院的巡察之中非常清楚地報告，而且這個部分我……"],["傅委員崐萁：報告怎麼樣？"],["李秘書長俊俋：請行政院嚴格地督導這件事情的成效。"],["傅委員崐萁：上次什麼時候？什麼時候請它嚴格督導？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們會請行政院給我們一個報告。"],["傅委員崐萁：民進黨執政8年，每一年都向上攀升啊！監察院做了什麼？本席在請教這個問題。"],["李秘書長俊俋：有關打詐的個案，我們其實查得也不少。您說有沒有跟行政院提醒、通知……"],["傅委員崐萁：本席沒有要你調查打詐，你又不是第一線人員……"],["李秘書長俊俋：當然不是我，是我們的委員。"],["傅委員崐萁：你們必須對行政院這些部會考核嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，所以我們……"],["傅委員崐萁：他們做了什麼嘛？"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以我跟傅委員報告，上次、就是去年年底的時候，我們還有特別跟行政院提到這件事，這是在中央巡察的時候講的。"],["傅委員崐萁：去年年底，是順便提到，是不是？這是國民多大的痛苦指數啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們本來就有中央巡察，巡察的時候還特別列出來。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席都接過多少次詐騙電話，相信秘書長你也接過很多次詐騙電話。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，大家都很關心這個議題。"],["傅委員崐萁：臺灣人民不分老幼，每一個人平均接到至少10次以上的詐騙電話。"],["李秘書長俊俋：大家都很關心這個議題。"],["傅委員崐萁：臺灣是無政府狀態嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以我們特別提醒行政院要注意這個事……"],["傅委員崐萁：提醒？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這是我們上次在中央巡察的時候……"],["傅委員崐萁：你們糾劾了哪些人？糾彈了哪些人？"],["李秘書長俊俋：糾彈了哪些人，我跟……"],["傅委員崐萁：還在提醒？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟傅委員報告，這個要依個案……"],["傅委員崐萁：國民這麼大的痛苦指數，你們還在提醒？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這是個案……"],["傅委員崐萁：什麼叫個案！全民的公案，什麼叫個案！"],["李秘書長俊俋：每一個案都要以個案來看，監察院做的就是個案調查。"],["傅委員崐萁：部會做了什麼成績？本席在請教這個問題，什麼每一個都個案！"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以我們要求行政院針對這件事情討論嘛。"],["傅委員崐萁：好啦，你講個案，本席再告訴你什麼叫個案。不要講8年，5年就好，近5年詐欺案、打詐案的統計，108年度2萬3,647件，109年2萬3,054件，110年2萬4,724件，111年2萬9,509件，112年（去年）3萬7,984件，一次膨脹百分之三十幾，顯示政府幾乎已經失能、已經癱瘓了！可以一年成長百分之三十幾的詐騙率，國會不能夠請教、就教於監察院嗎？你們對所有的部會做了什麼樣的糾舉、什麼樣的彈劾？這種成績可以嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：傅委員，我跟您報告，查詐騙、打詐的部分是行政院的職責，不是我們監察院的職責……"],["傅委員崐萁：部會有沒有失職是誰的職責？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們監察院只能針對在個案裡邊……"],["傅委員崐萁：部會有沒有失職是誰的職責？誰來糾舉？誰來彈劾？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，我現在跟您說明，就個案裡面公務員有沒有違法失職才是我們監察院的工作，我也特別告訴您，這件事情大家都很關心，全民都很關心，所以我們特別提醒行政院，在去年年底中央巡察的時候把它列為一個議題，然後後續的成果跟後續的檢討要由行政院做，不是由監察院來做。"],["傅委員崐萁：什麼時候我們臺灣的部會能夠真正好好來辦事，減少人民的痛苦跟壓力？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們也希望這樣。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席拭目以待。"],["主席：謝謝傅總召，謝謝李秘書長。","主席在這裡再三要跟我們委員會報告、跟傅總召報告，本委員會除了發言臺已經按照其他委員會的方式先設置之外，司法及法制委員會有一個跟其他委員會略有不同的地方，司法及法制委員會可能是唯一憲法的其他憲政機關，五院的其他關係院會到本委員會就預算項目、就立法計畫列席說明，這不同於行政院對立法院負責，由立法委員對行政部門官員進行質詢。今天我們排定的議程是監察院113年度的立法計畫，也希望我們各位委員在司法及法制委員會當中秉持憲法第七十一條的規定，我們是邀請關係院的院長及各部會首長來列席陳述意見，今天陳述意見的主題是監察院113年的立法計畫，監察院不是來這邊做施政報告，有請各位委員明察。","接下來有請林委員思銘發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","陳俊宇","羅智強","傅崐萁","林思銘","吳宗憲","謝龍介","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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中華民國憲法有沒有遷徙的自由"},{"start":77.335,"end":84.371,"text":"我跟委員報告 這個部分屬於政策的討論 監察院不便有任何的意見政策的討論是行政院跟立法院的市值"},{"start":85.367,"end":90.269,"text":"所以我跟傅委員報告的是這個牽涉到政策的討論 這個政策討論是由行政院跟立法院你們討論 這個監察院不必有任何的意見"},{"start":109.898,"end":110.418,"text":"2018年2018年2018年2018年2018年2018年"},{"start":137.423,"end":163.914,"text":"就已經查出在我們的編遣就已經查出來不但沒有沒入銷毀還把它退回這個是高雄地檢署發布的訊息再加上這個民進黨有好幾位委員都表示蘇丹紅早就在2021年2023年衛福部就已經知道了"},{"start":165.158,"end":178.496,"text":"為什麼還造成現在陳建仁院長宣布這已經是一個系統性的風暴系統性的問題請問一下秘書長海關有沒有人模不彰"},{"start":180.073,"end":191.241,"text":"這個我跟部委員報告2018年監察院並沒有有關蘇丹紅的調查蘇丹紅的調查我們是上個禮拜有委員自動調查那我們監察院只能查這樣我沒有緊張我只是報告事實我只是報告事實對我跟部委員報告事實謝謝不好意思我沒有講什麼"},{"start":210.553,"end":223.539,"text":"若高雄地檢署說的屬實海關有沒有失職這個部分我們都在調查中調查中的案子我不便發表任何意見衛福部有沒有失職我不便發表任何意見"},{"start":225.202,"end":250.044,"text":"地檢署偵查部不公開都已經講了 你們監察院什麼時候變成不公開的單位我不曉得陽光照不進來我作為幕僚長我本來就不能有任何批評第一個海關 衛福部早就知情為什麼還造成這種系統性的這麼大的一個風暴再過來食藥署說 哎呀台灣人民沒有關係啦"},{"start":251.665,"end":279.812,"text":"蘇戴洪就跟喝茶喝咖啡一樣啦齁這實在有夠誇張啊秘書長你們這個調查報告什麼時候可以出來我們上個禮拜自動調查大概什麼時候可以出來調查案這個應該是重大的跟他的性質有關我們要看是一般案件重大案件或是特殊重大案件大概多久嘛這關係到全民健康的問題嘛如果一般案件的話是三個月重大案件是六個月那重大特殊案件是一年"},{"start":280.945,"end":282.887,"text":"你都做到秘書長了 監察院的秘書長你判斷不出來嗎你的意思說要拖一年是嗎"},{"start":302.625,"end":326.559,"text":"這個算是國家重大案件嗎有這麼難查嗎這個部分我跟部委員報告監察院監察委員一現把他獨立行使職權我作為一個幕僚長我不便做任何的評斷那他們要列為一般案件或是重大案件或是特殊重大案件這不是我的權責你不能疑問三不知嗎我沒有疑問三不知我很清楚的告訴監察院的規定是什麼本席就靜候"},{"start":331.363,"end":334.044,"text":"陸佩4年入籍4加2是6年一般的外配是3加1是4年"},{"start":360.902,"end":368.547,"text":"我們現在請教一下,如果陸配偶6年改為跟所有外籍一樣,這樣符不符合國際人權的兩公約?"},{"start":378.004,"end":391.74,"text":"我回應副委員兩個意見第一個我們不因膚色、階級、貧窮或富貴有任何的差別這是一個第二個陸配跟外配它適用的法規是不一樣的"},{"start":392.661,"end":421.903,"text":"陸配是適用兩岸人民關係條例那外配的話是移民法所以兩個本來就不一樣那相關的規定也會不同相關規定就是因為可以調整嘛當然可以修法可以調整啊所以本席在問你有沒有符合國際人權兩公約啊有沒有人權平等的問題啊有沒有國際平權的問題啊我跟委員報告如果要平等到底平等的定義是什麼"},{"start":422.463,"end":448.631,"text":"那我們現在最重要的就是 追求不敷階級的這個所以剛剛請教您的是有沒有符合國際人權兩公約有還是沒有適用的法規不同我無法跟副委員做別的訓練國際兩公約對人權的基本保障秘書長你都判斷不出來我沒有判斷不出來這我跟副委員我跟你講得很清楚五院院長的秘書長"},{"start":450.829,"end":458.213,"text":"國際人權公約你回去再study本期下次還會請教你本期下次還會請教你再問你啊這個打詐齁現在越打越詐到底啊我們的國家現在失能的程度到什麼狀況監察院還在睡覺嗎沒有睡覺 監察院很清楚的更新"},{"start":478.271,"end":479.552,"text":"民進黨執政8年每1年都向上攀升阿"},{"start":500.472,"end":501.212,"text":"昨年年底是順便提到的"},{"start":529.806,"end":553.961,"text":"這是國民多大的痛苦指數啊我們本來就有中央巡查巡查的時候還特別列出來相信秘書長你也接過很多次詐騙電話是臺灣人民不分老幼對不對每一個人平均不要接受至少10次以上的詐騙電話大家都很關心這個議題臺灣是無政府狀態嗎所以我們特別提醒行政院要注意這個提醒這是我們上次在中央議場的時候你們糾合了哪些人糾談了哪些人糾談了哪些人臺灣在提醒"},{"start":558.604,"end":577.536,"text":"我跟副委員報告這個要一個案這是個案本席什麼叫個案全民的公案什麼叫個案每一個案都要以個案來看嘛監察院做的就是個案調查部會做了什麼成績嘛本席在請教這個問題嘛所以嘛我們每一個都個案所以嘛我們要求行政院好了你講的個案本席在告訴你啦什麼叫個案不要講8年啦5年就好啦"},{"start":584.656,"end":591.04,"text":"近5年炸雞案的統計打炸案了108年度23647件109年23054件110年24724件111年29509件112年去年37984件一次膨脹了30幾%這幾乎是政府已經試了已經癱瘓了"},{"start":621.237,"end":638.305,"text":"這國會不能夠來請教就教於監察院嗎?你們對所有的部會做了什麼樣的糾取?什麼樣的彈劾?這種成績可以嗎?副委員我跟你們報告這個查詐騙打詐的部分這是行政院的職責不是我們監察院的職責"},{"start":639.125,"end":639.165,"text":"什麼時候"},{"start":669.607,"end":674.574,"text":"臺灣的部會能夠真正好好來辦事 減少人民的痛苦跟壓力"}]}},{"id":"149637","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149637","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43005cd96b225c5b4562aea18303c979697ef8ba9b0039caa7a69fb31201d8e0b9555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:56:32 - 10:07:24","影片長度":"00:10:52","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-5"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":652,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:07:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T09:56:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":421,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時56分）主席，有請秘書長。"],["主席：有請李秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：秘書長，請教一下地方巡察我們監察院一年的經費是多少？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個我可能要查一下，我沒有什麼印象。"],["羅委員智強：那沒關係，您把報告補給我，好不好？"],["李秘書長俊俋：好，我提供書面給羅委員。"],["羅委員智強：那我想賡續剛剛黃國昌委員問的問題，你在當立法委員的時候曾經說過地方巡察無意義，應自費，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我當立委的時候是，我今天不是以立委身分來。"],["羅委員智強：沒有關係，我今天是立法委員，我非常認同李俊俋前立法委員的意見，所以我來幫助李俊俋前立法委員，在今年審查預算的時候，把地方監察、巡察這個預算全部砍掉，讓你實現你自費的目標，好不好？"],["李秘書長俊俋：等到審查預算再來討論。"],["羅委員智強：所以你不反對嘛？謝謝。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我沒有不反對，我說等到審查預算，今天不是討論預算。"],["羅委員智強：沒有關係，那我想請教您，我剛才看到您在答詢的過程，剛好有一題也是我要問的，就是講到監察委員的績效，然後你回答了一句：其實最近這幾屆各屆的案件辦得差不多。是這個意思嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["羅委員智強：好，這一句話我先記下來，待會我就來看看你們案件辦得如何。最近我們看監察委員的績效，可以從質跟量兩個角度來看，我先來談質的問題，最近蘇丹紅風暴越演越烈，食安五環破功，上下游全數失守，其實涉案的李姓負責人2018年就開始進口相關的產品，旗下10間公司都被陸續檢出蘇丹紅，政府竟然6年放任，演變成今天的系統性的食安風暴，最離譜的是，這個公司的蘇丹紅產品在邊境被查驗出來之後，不是銷毀，而是退運，然後轉一圈再用其他人頭公司的名義進來，3年前他還出了一個青辣椒粉，被下游驗出有蘇丹紅退貨，但他沒有將貨品銷毀，而是再同批販賣給另一家廠商，我想要問一下監察院，過去對於食安把關方面有什麼具體的作為？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們對食安的個案查過很多案，有關羅委員剛剛提到的蘇丹紅，現在也在立案調查。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，我期待我們的監察院對於蘇丹紅的立案調查能夠給民眾一個滿意的結果，不過我跟秘書長說，坦白講，我對於我們監察院辦案不是那麼有信心，為什麼？先從過去幾個食安風暴來談，我想請教您，2008年奶粉違法添加三聚氰胺事件，監察院查衛生署，有沒有查出疏失？我跟你講，你查比較慢，有五大疏失，並且通過糾正；2011年塑化劑污染事件查出7個問題，糾正行政院衛生署、環保署；2013年的所謂的添加化製澱粉事件，有點類似現在的蘇丹紅事件，當時也糾正衛福部跟經濟部；到了2017年，就是在蔡英文總統上任之後，雞蛋檢出芬普尼，請問我們的監察院查的結果是什麼？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分我們是糾正。"],["羅委員智強：糾正農委會管理疏失嘛，對不對？是哪個監委糾正的啊？"],["李秘書長俊俋：第5屆的仉桂美跟王美玉委員。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！就是馬總統提名的仉桂美嘛，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這跟哪一個委員提的沒有關係。"],["羅委員智強：好，接下來，2018年業者回收不良蛋品重製液蛋販售，這些行政院可能都是認定類似所謂系統性的問題，我想請問當時有將近百萬個黑心蛋流入市面，烘培業、自助餐全中標，請問那個時候已經是蔡總統提名的監察委員通過了什麼？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分還在調查當中。"],["羅委員智強：通過調查報告啦、零糾正啦，對不對？什麼在調查？通過調查報告零糾正啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：蛋液的部分……"],["羅委員智強：我再請教去年發生的巴西進口蛋洗產地爭議，當然你還在調查中嘛，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：調查中，對。"],["羅委員智強：所以我要告訴你，從質的部分來講，為什麼6年的蘇丹紅到現在會發生系統性越演越烈？監察院事後懲處的單位其實就像一條鞭子嘛，對不對？它可以督促政府針對食安的部分，就是以後不要重蹈過錯嘛，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：蘇丹紅的部分是上個禮拜才立案的。"],["羅委員智強：我當然知道上禮拜立案，我要講的是你們系統性對食安的部分，坦白講，對政府的監督力道，我覺得鞭子要再加強一點。","接下來我再從量的部分來告訴你……"],["李秘書長俊俋：羅委員，這個都是個案，每一個案情都不同。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，質的部分你都變個案嘛，我也懂啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：監察院就是……"],["羅委員智強：我們來講量的部分，你剛剛自己講的喔，其實這幾屆監委辦的案子量都差不多，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["羅委員智強：好，那我來請教您，以第4屆、第5屆、第6屆監委來講，第4屆監委全是馬總統提名的，第5屆有重疊一半一半，對不對？差不多啦，有一部分是馬英九提名，有一部分是蔡英文提名。第6屆就全是蔡英文提名的嘛，對不對？我們來比較第4屆跟第6屆，全部馬英九提名跟全部蔡英文提名，請問彈劾案第4屆每個月平均月結多少案？每個月平均多少案？"],["李秘書長俊俋：你們這邊寫的是2案。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝。你知道完全由蔡總統提名的第6屆監委是多少？1.8嘛，對不對？1.8是沒有差別很大啦，但是我要問你下一個問題，糾正案……"],["李秘書長俊俋：羅委員，我再補充一句，第4屆的彈劾案很多是兼職案件、是同一類型的……"],["羅委員智強：好啦，你要再去分別。我再來講糾正案，糾正案第4屆監委每個月16.1件，請問第6屆是多少？每個月7件啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：去年是200多件啦！"],["羅委員智強：我講的是通過糾正的部分，不是說今天你調查的案件，糾正案在馬政府的時候就是每個月16.1件啊！而你們每個月全平均就是7.0件，不到一半啊！","我想再請教你調查案，請問你知道第4屆監委調查案月均多少件嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：羅委員我提醒你一下，第4屆的情況因為監委有缺額，所以……"],["羅委員智強：好啦，我告訴你，監委有缺額，人家調查案件還比你積極喔！"],["李秘書長俊俋：因為太多的案子是積案……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講結果嘛，不要講調查案件而已，我要講的是結果，調查案……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟羅委員報告，你不能只看數字，重點不在數字。"],["羅委員智強：數字你也不行？那你用幾個客觀數字講你們監察院的績效嘛，你講不出來啊！我們就以你最關心的人權保障調查案來講，你知道第4屆監委月均多少件嗎？總共1,671件，月均23件啦！你們那麼關心人權報告，月均多少件？"],["李秘書長俊俋：人權委員會是在2020年8月1號才成立的，第4屆……"],["羅委員智強：就算人權委員會在2020年8月1號才成立，人家在它還沒有成立之前，人權的調查案件就比你要多過將近三倍耶！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們現在人權的案子是由人權委員會在查。"],["羅委員智強：沒有關係啦！我跟你講……"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個統計數字……"],["羅委員智強：其實秘書長你也不用太擔心，我要跟你講……"],["李秘書長俊俋：這樣的統計數字是沒有意義的……"],["羅委員智強：我要跟你講，你又講統計數字沒意義，你剛剛前面還講你的案件數差不多咧！"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以……"],["羅委員智強：案件數差不多，現在又說統計數字沒有意義！"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以我剛才說明的就是其實各屆委員平均的數字都沒有太大差別，重點在於各個委員獨立行使職權嘛！"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，秘書長，食安過去的糾正次數是最少的，然後你跟我講說案件數其實各屆差不多，我已經告訴你具體數字，你就是比人家差，然後你再回頭跟我講說沒有，我前面講的是不對的嗎？其實案件數不是重點啊！問題就在案件數……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我從頭到尾……"],["羅委員智強：前面我第一個問你的問題是什麼？你說案件數差不多，你講的啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，所以案件數不是重點嘛！"],["羅委員智強：你的調查案件數比人家少，你的糾正案比人家少，你的人權保障調查案比人家少，結果你跟我講案件數差不多，其實差到只剩人家的二分之一到三分之一，你都說差不多！"],["李秘書長俊俋：羅委員，我跟你報告……"],["羅委員智強：抓到以後再跟我講說案件數不重要啊！你一開始就講案件數不重要我還能接受啦！沒關係啦……"],["李秘書長俊俋：羅委員，我跟你報告第4屆是2.84案，第5屆是2.78案，那我們現在是2.31案……"],["羅委員智強：你講的是彈劾案啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，但是案件數本來就不重要……"],["羅委員智強：我要跟你講，只有彈劾案可以做指標嗎？糾正案、人權調查報告案都不算嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：案件的多少不是監察院的職權。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係啦，我跟你講監察院功能彰不彰、監委辦案績效好不好，讓我們的社會大眾去看啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：社會可以公評，包括立法院的績效好不好，社會都可以公評。"],["羅委員智強：說真的，我覺得監察院的辦案素質，我講我親身經歷的案件，你知道監察院很認真的查政治獻金，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：政治獻金、財產申報我們都……"],["羅委員智強：對嘛，很認真查嘛！你也很認真查了我的政治獻金，對不對？然後你知道嗎？監察院在2020年的時候，說我的政治獻金有四筆姓名跟身分證字號不符，最少的一筆是306元，還嗆要罰我6萬到120萬。我想請問你，最後結果是什麼？我的申報是實還是不實？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分……"],["羅委員智強：我申報實還是不實？"],["陳處長美延：報告羅委員，那個部分是我們在中間釐正的時候，需要您確認一下為什麼……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，我們辦公室跟你們查詢，你們態度可不是這樣，結果我們辦公室搞了一個禮拜，最後還是透過臺北市民政局來確定還我清白。你們的辦案品質結果就被臺北市民政局打臉，最後跟我講系統錯誤！那你們的系統也太落伍了吧！"],["陳處長美延：報告委員，我們完全依照內政部的系統……"],["羅委員智強：我知道，謝謝你啊！為什麼臺北市民政局的系統就是跟你們的檔案不一樣？"],["陳處長美延：是……"],["羅委員智強：時間到了，感謝你，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝李秘書長。","主席在這裡再度提醒，今天我們排案是請監察院來報告113年度的立法計畫，包括立法院、監察院，在憲法條文當中跟總統和其他五院都同為憲政機關，所以今天監察院係依憲法第七十一條「立法院開會時，關係院……」這跟行政院向立法院負責的情況有所不同，它是集各部會首長來列席陳述意見，所以希望發言委員可以體察這之間行政院向立法院負責的質詢方式，與本次會議的主旨以及憲法規定的監察院跟立法院的關係跟今天列席報告說明的首長的立場有些不太一樣，謝謝。","接下來有請傅總召崐萁發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","陳俊宇","羅智強","傅崐萁","林思銘","吳宗憲","謝龍介","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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可以從質跟量兩個角度來看我先來談質的問題最近蘇丹紅風暴越演越烈 食安五環 破工 上下游全數失守那其實這個涉案的理性負責人 2018年就開始進口相關的產品他的旗下十間公司都被陸續檢出蘇丹紅"},{"start":117.245,"end":144.845,"text":"政府竟然6年放任演變成今天的系統性的食安風暴那最離譜的是這個公司蘇丹紅產品在邊境被查驗出來之後他不是銷毀是退運然後轉一圈再用其他人頭公司的名義再進來3年前他還出了一個青辣椒粉被下游驗出有蘇丹紅退貨然後沒有將貨品銷毀然後再用同批反賣給另家廠商"},{"start":146.986,"end":170.809,"text":"我想要問一下監察院過去對於食安把關方面有什麼具體的作為我們對食安的個案我們查過很多案那有關羅委員剛剛提到的蘇丹紅現在立案調查非常好我期待我們的監察院對於蘇丹紅的這個立案調查能夠交給民眾我們一個滿意的結果不過我跟秘書長說"},{"start":171.65,"end":188.366,"text":"坦白講我對於我們監察院的辦案我不是那麼有信心為什麼先來從過去幾個食安風暴我想請教您2008年奶粉違法添加三聚氰胺事件監察院查出衛生署有沒有查出疏失"},{"start":191.669,"end":209.408,"text":"五大疏失通過糾正2011年塑化劑污染事件查出7個問題糾正行政院衛生署環保署2013年所謂的添加畫質澱粉事件有點像現在蘇丹紅事件類似"},{"start":210.429,"end":223.603,"text":"當時也糾正衛福部跟經濟部那到2017年就是我們現在蔡英文總統上任之後雞蛋剪出分埔泥請問你我們的這個監察院查的結果是什麼這個部分我們是糾正糾正農委會管理書師嘛對不對是誰哪個監委糾正的"},{"start":235.66,"end":264.389,"text":"第5屆的展櫃美跟王美玉委員對嘛就是馬總統提名的展櫃美嘛對不對好接下來2018年業者回收不良彈品重製液彈販售這些都是我們行政院可能認定類似所謂系統性那我想請問當時有將近百萬個黑心彈流入市面烘焙業自助餐全中標請問那個時候已經是蔡總統提名的監察委員通過了什麼"},{"start":265.912,"end":284.567,"text":"這個部分還在調查當中通過調查報告啦 零糾正啦 對不對什麼在調查 通過調查報告零糾正啊我再想請教你去年發生的巴西進口袋洗產地的爭議當然你還在調查中嘛 對不對所以我要告訴你 從池的部分為什麼第二年的蘇丹紅到現在"},{"start":285.868,"end":287.309,"text":"蘇丹豪農部分是上個禮拜才立案的"},{"start":302.743,"end":325.484,"text":"我當然知道上禮拜亮 我要講的就是你們系統性對食安的部分坦白講對政府的監督力道 我覺得鞭子要再加強一點接下來我再從亮的部分來告訴你這個都是個案 每一個案情都不同我告訴你沒關係啊 質的部分你都變個案嘛 我也懂啦我們來講亮的部分 你剛剛自己講其實這幾屆監委辦的案子都亮都差不多 對不對"},{"start":327.205,"end":351.036,"text":"請教您我們分第4屆第5屆第6屆監委第4屆的監委全是馬總統提名的第5屆有重疊一半一半對不對差不多啦有一部分是馬英九一部分蔡英文那第6屆就是全是蔡英文提名的對不對我們來比較第4屆跟第6屆全部馬英九提名跟全部蔡英文提名請問彈劾案第4屆每個月平均多少案月結多少案"},{"start":353.991,"end":365.306,"text":"每個月平均多少案?你們這邊寫的是兩案好 謝謝齁然後呢你知道我們的蔡總統完全第6屆監委是多少?1.8嘛 對不對?"},{"start":366.888,"end":383.221,"text":"1.8是沒有差別很大啦但是我要問你下一個囉 糾正案羅遠我再補充一句齁第4屆的這個堂和案很多是兼職案件是同一類型好啦我告訴你你要再去分別我直接跟你講我再來講糾正案齁糾正案第4屆監委16.1每個月請問我們的第6屆多少"},{"start":390.666,"end":415.604,"text":"每個月7件啦我講的是今天通過糾正不是說今天你調查的案件你糾正案就是馬政府每個月16.1啊你的每個月全平均就是7.0啊不到一半啊那我再想請教你調查案齁請問你知道第4屆監委調查案月均多少件嗎"},{"start":417.629,"end":433.034,"text":"羅委員我提醒你一下第4屆的情況因為監委有缺額好啦我告訴你監委有缺額人家調查案件還比你積極喔因為太多的案件是積極案沒有我跟你講結果嘛我不要講調查案件而已我光講說結果調查案件你不能只看數字重點不在數字"},{"start":438.096,"end":448.067,"text":"數字你也不行那你幾個客觀數字講你們監察院的績效嘛你講不出來阿好我們就來你最關心的人權調查案號保證案號你知道第4屆監委月均多少件嗎總共1671件月均23件阿你們那麼關心人權報告"},{"start":459.439,"end":477.966,"text":"人權委員會是在20208月1號才成立的就算人權委員20208月1號成立人家沒有成立之前人權的調查的案件就比你要多過將近三倍我們現在人權的案子是由人權委員會來打的所以這個統計數字是沒有意義的這樣的統計數字是沒有意義的我們現在人權的案子是由人權委員會來打的"},{"start":486.169,"end":486.95,"text":"實安過去的查你的糾正次數是最少的"},{"start":503.388,"end":504.008,"text":"所以案件數不是重點嗎"},{"start":523.41,"end":523.931,"text":"羅委員 我跟你報告啊羅委員"},{"start":543.37,"end":567.505,"text":"我跟妳報告第4屆是2.84案第5屆是2.7我要告訴你喔你講的是彈劾案啦我要跟你講只有彈劾案可以做指標嗎糾正案人權調查報告案都不算嗎沒關係我跟你講監察院功能髒不髒監委辦案績效好不好讓我們的社會大眾來去看那我再跟你講齁我跟你講"},{"start":571.447,"end":588.042,"text":"說真的 我覺得我們的監察院的辦案素質我講一個親身經歷的案件你知道監察院很認真查那個所謂財產那個我們講那個政治獻金嘛 對不對政治獻金財產申報對嘛 很認真查嘛你也很認真查了我的政治獻金啊 對不對"},{"start":589.554,"end":601.766,"text":"然後你知道嗎 有一次監察院在2018年的2020年的時候說我的政治獻金有4筆姓名跟身份證字號不符 最少的一筆306元還說要罰我6萬到120萬我想請問你齁 最後結果是什麼 我的申報是實還是不實"},{"start":609.548,"end":612.13,"text":"我告訴你 我們的辦公室跟你們查詢 你們態度可不是這樣"},{"start":623.712,"end":623.872,"text":"謝謝羅委員 謝謝李委員"}]}},{"id":"149636","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149636","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43005ac53581d9316040ee83bb1dd0927c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6165cd330bf6083615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"10:06:26 - 10:17:06","影片長度":"00:10:40","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":640,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:17:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:06:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":337,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（10時6分）謝謝召委，我們是不是有請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委早。主委，還是因應之前幾位委員有問到的衛福部取消掛號費的備查制，取消備查代表的意義是什麼？"],["李主任委員鎂：備查機制在衛福部有相關的做法。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，他們現在取消備查，跟掛號費未來會怎麼波動？"],["李主任委員鎂：我的瞭解是將來……"],["蔡委員易餘：你們的判斷呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我的瞭解是將來各醫療院所的掛號費要收取多少，由各醫療院所各自去決定。"],["蔡委員易餘：由各醫療院所自己去決定嘛！如果過去是備查的話，過去是不可以決定嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：不管是過去或是現在，都不可以有聯合定價的……"],["蔡委員易餘：你沒有回答我的問題，我的意思是說，如果是備查的話，過去他們還是可以決定他們的掛號費嘛！只是因為他們備查，衛福部掌握了這個資訊，掌握這個資訊的同時也可能多少會牽制到他們掛號費的漲價，是不是這個意思？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：未來就是取消備查，所以衛福部很明顯在這一塊是不管的。","好，現在就跑到公平會的問題了，所以未來你們就會有這個責任啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我想請教的是，如果針對診所漲掛號費，因為取消備查，他們之後……他們之前就可以漲，但是他們現在漲了，那你們要怎麼認定它有聯合行為？"],["李主任委員鎂：基本上，如果是各漲各的，這個不會有違法的行為。"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊！問題就來了，這麼多診所……"],["李主任委員鎂：如果有聯合行為……"],["蔡委員易餘：這麼多診所，如果明天我同一條街的第一家診所漲了100塊，隔天第二家診所看到它漲了我也要漲，也要漲100塊，第三天第三家也漲了100塊，然後一個禮拜內這一條街的7家診所全漲了100塊，那這樣是不是聯合行為？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個是跟漲的行為，我想在商場上跟漲的行為也是常見。"],["蔡委員易餘：常見嘛！但是他們不是聯合行為嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：要提到公平會是……"],["蔡委員易餘：因為聯合行為必須是他們對於契約的主要內容有一定默契的形成，有一定的合意嘛！有這樣的合意形成，才會變成聯合行為，所以我只能告訴你，事實上這件事情公平會未來縱使接受檢舉，你們也不會查。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會看情況。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們會看情況，但是你們查不出什麼東西來啦！除非你們你們有抓到他們有……這一家診所和七家診所可能有個飯局，然後大家講好我們一起來漲，是不是這樣？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，如果有證據的話。跟委員說明，我們去年就查到了，桃園有兩家聯合，這個有證據，有一些可以查得到。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，我知道你們去年有查，你們有查到兩家醫院有聯合行為。"],["李主任委員鎂：所以還是要看我們掌握證據的情況。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，但是我只能跟你說，這件事事實上……我希望你們可以掌握，但是我不覺得公平會在這件事……因為可以想像的就是跟漲嘛！那跟漲的結果你們查不到什麼，所以這就是我在說的，公平會你們把自己設限是讓你們的武器比你們想像的還要小，你們也管不到什麼。","我要進入下一題，現在網路詐騙這麼多！網路詐騙事實上都是透過像Facebook、像IG這一種Meta的平臺，很多，它們是大宗，對於這樣的網路詐騙，公平會有希望採取怎樣的作為來有效的監管嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：網路詐騙涉及到跨機關、跨部會的權責，所以在網路詐騙部分，公平會也參與行政院的打詐小組，如果網路上的廣告涉及的是不實廣告，我們有主動監控，我想在分工上，針對詐騙的部分……"],["蔡委員易餘：你們主動監控，但是你們到底監控了什麼？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會把常常發生不實廣告的類型去監控……"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我現在就給你看，網路上常常會出現一些名人，包括我們台積電的董事長夫人以及我們的主委，他們都變成在教大家怎麼去做股票的投資，這個會不會很誇張？但是它確實存在，也不只他們兩個，也許主委的照片、名字也被冒用，也變成在對一些不知道的人喊話，請他們加入，結果後來變成詐騙，像這樣的話，臉書也沒管，縱使我去陳情這個是有問題的，那有用嗎？你們對於這樣的國際大平臺有辦法去處罰或者是要求必須要針對這樣的作為怎麼做嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果是詐騙或者是投資方面的各種詐騙行為，基本上，在公平法裡面比較沒有處理的空間，因為我們處理的是不實廣告。"],["蔡委員易餘：比較沒有空間，對啊！但是我們接觸了這樣的臉書，我們接觸臉書，卻充斥了這樣的詐騙，我相信他們平臺的後臺一定可以知道，這個詐騙集團都用相同來源去重複註冊，然後去註冊了一堆這樣的帳號，只是他們的來源可能是外國，所以你們抓不到，問題是他們抓得到啊！他們一定知道到底是哪一些族群去大量註冊這樣的帳號，他們知道嘛！所以你們能夠做的就是對他們處罰，請他們針對這樣的行為來遏止，有辦法嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：投資這一部分，我的瞭解是證券投顧法相關法律裡面有要求後臺對於託播者要有實名制的規定，我想透過這個實名制在投資這一部分可以處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：託播者的實名制，那是他們的後臺去要求，可是那個實名制都很容易被破解啦！因為他們只是要提供身分證或者是怎樣，對不對？然後提供有效的帳號，那個他們都整組的，因為他們都到處去蒐集個資，他們還是有辦法破解啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：這些詐騙行為就是刑事責任……"],["蔡委員易餘：就是這樣，對啦！主委，事實上，韓國在去年底針對Meta公司就有提出了一個審查報告，針對類似這樣跨國的電子商務平臺，他們就有在做這樣的審查，你看韓國也是這樣做，所以我們公平會還是可以有所作為吧！"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員報告，其實網路上的平臺也有很多不實廣告，我們過去也邀請了這些平臺，不管是國內或者是Meta，來共同討論如何去解決這一些不實廣告的問題，這個我們也有請業者來談。"],["蔡委員易餘：既然有討論，一定會有一些結論。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：那些結論有沒有落實？現在重點在這裡，不能只是一直在做討論，你們還是要有一些結論的落實。","好，我最後再講一個議題，就再1分鐘就好。事實上，主委，你們也要想，你們公平會還是要面對一個問題，現在整個臺灣的貸款，幾乎都銀行貸不到的就跑到融資公司，這些融資公司通常都是在金控公司下面，所以他們這個融資公司和這個金控公司有沒有做一些客戶資料的共享或者是銀行貸不到的就把他介紹去融資公司，讓融資公司可以瞬間掌握這些客源或者是他們和車商，這中間有沒有資料的共享，這件事公平會要不要管？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想如果是客戶資料的共享，這可能是涉及到個人資料保護法的議題。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，他們是不同公司，可是他們是同一個集團的，這個事實上大家都知道，像和泰有和潤的租賃，現在整個臺灣的貸款幾乎很多都擠到融資去了，融資事實上不受金管會的監管，你們公平會管嗎？公平會照理要管啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：基本上，個人資料保護的洩漏或者客戶資料的共享如果有涉及到競爭秩序，當然公平法有處理，如果不是涉及到競爭秩序，而是個資的保護問題，那應該是適用個資法。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們不可以把自己的權力都限縮得這麼小，現在整個融資已經在臺灣充斥太多了，然後他們不受金管會的監管，所以他們這個貸款後續衍生很多的問題，到目前為止叫做無法可管，就回到民法而已，我覺得公平會針對這樣的態樣應該還是要去思考你們到底可以管什麼，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們不能所有都是在等人家檢舉，再事後去做調查，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員。","接下來請陳超明委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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主委那還是因應之前幾位委員有去問到衛福部取消這個關澳費的一個備查制 那取消備查它代表的意義是什麼查機制在衛福部有相關的這個他們的做法"},{"start":48.63,"end":74.135,"text":"對阿阿取消被查跟這個掛號費未來會怎麼的怎麼的波動我的了解是將來各醫療院所他的這個掛號費要收取多少各醫療院所各自去決定就各醫療院所自己去決定那如果過去是被查的話過去不可以決定嗎不管是過去或是現在都不可以有聯合聯合"},{"start":76.251,"end":102.062,"text":"你沒有回答我的問題。我的意思是說,如果是備查的話,過去他們還是可以決定他們的掛號費。只是說因為他們備查,那衛福部掌握了這個資訊。那掌握這個資訊的同時,也可能多少會牽制到他們掛號費的漲價。是不是這個意思?那未來就取消備查,所以衛福部很明顯在這一塊他們是不管的。"},{"start":102.862,"end":122.048,"text":"好 那現在就跑到了公平會的問題啦所以未來你們就會有這個責任啦好 那我想要請教是說如果針對診所漲掛號費因為取消備查然後他們之後他們之前就可以漲但是他們現在漲了那你們要怎麼認定還有聯合行為基本上如果是各漲各的這個"},{"start":124.969,"end":147.594,"text":"對阿問題就來了阿這麼多診所好阿如果明天我同一條街的第一家診所漲了一百塊那隔天第二家診所誇他漲了我也要漲那我也漲一百塊那第三天第三家也漲了一百塊然後一個禮拜內這一條街的七家診所全漲了一百塊那這樣是不是聯合行為"},{"start":149.714,"end":171.808,"text":"我想在商場上跟這樣的行為也是常見常見嘛但是他們不是聯合行為嘛因為行為必須他們對於契約的主要內容有一定的默契的形成有一定的合意嘛有這樣的合意形成才會變成聯合行為所以我只能告訴你事實上這件事情公平會未來縱使接受檢舉你們不會查"},{"start":174.005,"end":201.682,"text":"我們會看情況但是你們查不出什麽東西來除非你們有抓到說他們有這一家診所的七家診所引五顆零一個飯局然後大家講好說我們一起來漲是是如果有證據那跟委員說明我們去年就查了桃園有兩家聯合那這個有這個證據對我知道你們去年有查你們有查到兩家醫院有聯合新聞所以還是要看我們掌握的證據情況對但是我只能跟你說這件事事實上"},{"start":202.923,"end":225.423,"text":"我希望你們可以掌握但是我不覺得公平會在這件事因為可以想像的就是跟漲嘛那跟漲的結果你們查不到什麼所以這就是我要講的公平會你們把自己設限是讓你們武器比你們想像的還要小你們管不了什麼所以我要進入下一題"},{"start":227.771,"end":246.888,"text":"來,現在網路詐騙這麼多那網路詐騙事實上都是透過這種像Facebook、像IG這種Meta的平台很多啦,他們是大宗那你們對於這樣的網路詐騙我們公平會有希望採取怎樣的作為來有效的監管嗎?"},{"start":251.231,"end":269.812,"text":"網絡詐騙涉及到跨機關、跨部會的權責所以在網絡詐騙部份公平會也參與行政院的一個打詐的小組那如果網絡上的廣告涉及的是不實廣告那我們有主動監控我想在分工上針對詐騙部份你們主動監控但是你們到底監控了什麼來下一頁"},{"start":272.862,"end":295.813,"text":"會把常常發生不實廣告的類型...好那我現在就給你看整個網路上常常會出現這些名人這個包括我們台積電的董事長夫人以及我們的主委他們都變成在教大家怎麼去做股票的投資這會不會很誇張"},{"start":297.469,"end":315.98,"text":"但是他確實存在啊,也不僅他們兩個啊,像我們也許主委啊,你的照片啊,你的名字也被冒用,然後也變成在對於這一些不知道的人,然後去做那些喊話,請他們加入,結果後來變成詐騙。那像這樣的話,臉書也沒管啊。"},{"start":323.506,"end":337.759,"text":"那縱使我去澄清說這個是有問題的那有用嗎?你們對於這樣的國際大平台有沒有辦法去去處罰他們或者是要求他們必須要針對這樣的作為要怎麼做嗎?"},{"start":339.255,"end":362.929,"text":"如果是詐騙或者是這個投資方面的各種的這些詐騙的行為基本上在公平法裡面比較沒有處理的空間比較沒有空間嗎對啊但是我們接觸了這樣的一個臉書啊我們接觸臉書卻充斥了這樣的詐騙我相信啦依他們平台的他們平台的後台啦一定可以知道說這個詐騙集團一定是"},{"start":365.45,"end":385.351,"text":"多用相同來源然後去做重複註冊然後去註冊了一堆一堆的這樣的一個帳號只是說他們的來源可能是外國所以你們抓不到問題他們抓得到啊他們一定知道啊到底是哪一些族群然後去大量的註冊這樣的一個帳號應該嘛"},{"start":389.613,"end":391.794,"text":"阿所以你們能夠做的就是對他們處罰,請他們針對這樣的行為來做遏止阿,有辦法嗎?"},{"start":397.303,"end":419.043,"text":"現在投資這一部分我的了解是那個政見投顧法相關法律裡面有要求要這個後台是不是要脫波者是不是要有實名制的這些規定那我想透過這個實名制在這個脫波者的實名制那是他們後台去要求可是那實名制都很容易被破解啦"},{"start":420.044,"end":441.028,"text":"因為他們只是要提供身分證或者是怎樣 對不對 然後提供有效的這個電子帳號 啊 他們那些都整組的啦 因為他們都到局去收集個資啊 他們還是有辦法破解啊啊 這些詐騙行為就是刑事責任 就是這樣啦 對不對 但是我來下一頁"},{"start":444.906,"end":470.606,"text":"主委,事實上韓國在去年底他們事實上針對這個米塔公司他們就提出了一個針對他們的一個審查報告事實上他們就是要講對類似這樣的國際跨國的一個商業平台電子商業平台他們就有在做這樣的一個審查那這樣的一個審查你看韓國也是這樣做"},{"start":471.977,"end":491.69,"text":"所以我們公平會還是可以有所作為吧?各位我們其實也網路上平台有很多不實廣告我們過去也邀請了這些平台還有國內不管是國內或者是Meta邀請這些平台來共同協討論如何去解決這些不實廣告的一個問題那這個我們也有"},{"start":496.893,"end":524.306,"text":"既然有討論一定會有一些結論嘛那些結論有沒有落實啊這是現在重點是這樣不能只是一直在做討論啊你們還是要一些結論的落實啊好我最後再講一個議題啦我最後講一個議題就再一分鐘就好就是讓主委你們要想你們公平會還是要面對一個問題現在整個台灣的一個貸款幾乎都銀行貸不到的就跑到這個叫做什麼"},{"start":526.066,"end":552.918,"text":"融資貸款融資公司那是這些融資公司呢 通常都是在金控公司下面喔所以他們這個融資公司跟這個金控公司有沒有做他們一些客戶資料的一些共享或者是他們這些融資公司為什麼這個銀行貸不到的就把他介紹去融資公司然後讓融資公司可以瞬間可以掌握這些客源或者是他們跟車商"},{"start":555.018,"end":573.527,"text":"那這中間有沒有資料的一個共享那這件事公平會要不要管我想如果是客戶資料的共享這可能是涉及到這個個人資料保護法的議題對可是他們是他們是不同公司可是他們是同一個集團的嘛這個是讓大家要知道嘛"},{"start":574.663,"end":590.045,"text":"像何泰他們也有他們何潤的一個主任那現在整個台灣的整個貸款幾乎很多都擠到融資去了然後融資事實上他不受金管會的監管那你們公平會管嗎?公平會到底要管啊?"},{"start":590.987,"end":606.979,"text":"基本上個人資料保護的這個洩漏或者是客戶資料的共享在如果有涉及到競爭秩序那當然公平法有處理如果不是涉及到這個競爭秩序而是個資的保護問題那應該是使用個資法現在整個融資已經在臺灣充斥太多了然後他們不受金管會的監管"},{"start":615.625,"end":615.826,"text":"謝謝蔡易餘委員"}]}},{"id":"149635","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149635","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300f6aad8edb442c3e043c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a6ee73133325f985115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"10:07:07 - 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請主委主委好本席首先要就我們選政跟選務一直是分立的這個情況跟主委來請教不敢當現在我們選政整個都是內政部"},{"start":27.669,"end":32.154,"text":"選務是中選會,公投法現在選政又歸在中選會,所以選政跟選務為什麼不能合一?"},{"start":42.898,"end":54.925,"text":"主委支持選政選務合一嗎我們過去雖然是在選舉的部分選政跟選務是有分工有內政部主管這個選政我們主管選務那過去運作的經驗其實都相當的順遂沒有沒有其實每次在討論比如像選罷法的時候兩個部會就要溝通協調其實是"},{"start":67.071,"end":73.192,"text":"請教主委世界各國選政選務分開的有哪些國家你說看看這個我目前說不出來啦重點是說不出來因為選政選務在世界各國都是合一的那我們台灣有他的歷史這個過去會分開有他的歷史因素"},{"start":96.536,"end":117.347,"text":"但是近幾年來幾乎社會上都是希望選政選務是合一的包含106年的陳朝健副主委還有112年的黃秀端委員在立法院行使同意權的這個審查的時候都認同這個方向"},{"start":118.047,"end":127.357,"text":"可是我們看到蔡政府8年以來都沒有把選政選務來想辦法合一那不知道是有什麼考量"},{"start":128.899,"end":131.141,"text":"選政選務合一這樣才比較好處理嗎?選報法又是內政部公投法選委會選報法內政部可是選務選舉的時候選務又是中選會"},{"start":150.732,"end":174.305,"text":"所以選政選務合一請問是不是內政部反對還是行政院有什麼意見我從來沒有聽說內政部有反對那為什麼不合一因為運作沒有發生困難運作都相當的順遂同時在選務裡面其實這個在第8屆內政部的業務也非常的多其實在第8屆本席當立委的時候那時候其實"},{"start":175.245,"end":196.974,"text":"在野黨也支持選政選務要合一那為什麼這8年來反而沒有所以這個部分本席想請主委是不是可以您這裡來向行政院跟內政部表達選政選務合一如果運作制度的一個設計產生實務運作的困難當然我們會反映"},{"start":200.996,"end":204.418,"text":"公投電子連署我們採用科技的方式讓民眾方便您應該認同吧"},{"start":224.847,"end":225.228,"text":"公投電子連署只能用自然人憑證"},{"start":235.903,"end":264.935,"text":"為什麼只有一個方法聯署根據公投法的規定必須要聯署人親自簽名或者是蓋章親自簽名或者蓋章那所以你要用電子聯署的話必須是法定的他有簽名蓋章同樣效力的這個方式才可以那依據現有的這個電子簽章法的規定那這個自然人憑證自然人憑證才有這個效力的"},{"start":265.732,"end":267.332,"text":"安全等級本席就要跟你請教你有自己網路報稅過嗎?"},{"start":293.419,"end":296.524,"text":"網路報稅有手機報稅跟電腦報稅那他都也有申請各種憑證的方式那行之多年他沒有安全的疑慮"},{"start":308.82,"end":323.395,"text":"所以剛剛主委說有安全等級沒有那你看財政部對這個他都沒有任何的意見然後再加上我們的法律公投法他就有講他的提案連署方式查對等等由主管機關定之"},{"start":324.756,"end":348.875,"text":"但是你們在行政命令的時候寫電子連署應該要以自然人憑證其實法律沒有規定自然人憑證法律沒有規定自然人憑證所以本席這邊希望我們除了自然人憑證讓大家更方便的健保卡反而是大家比較習慣比較習慣使用那我們報稅也都可以用健保卡"},{"start":349.395,"end":352.699,"text":"中選會不能夠用行政命令來納入健保卡這必須要牽扯到法律的修改我剛剛講的是你們的行政命令"},{"start":369.735,"end":389.649,"text":"法律沒有規定要用自然人憑證你們的行政命令反而限縮在自然人憑證這個反而是行政命令的問題你要去了解一下這個不用說明我接下來要特別為剩下一分多鐘我要為我們身心障礙者來爭取"},{"start":393.812,"end":414.45,"text":"主委你應該知道在這個障礙者他在要參選的話那他們有的時候會有比較需要一些多的時間的這個在之前我想您知道我們有2020年跟2024年參選立委的有一位腦重度腦性麻痺的這個參選者賴忠譽"},{"start":417.293,"end":428.3,"text":"他在2020年參選的時候那他因為講話需要比較長時間所以申請延長時間當時臺北市的選委會給他延長5分鐘結果他2024年參選同樣參選申請結果不能延長所以這個選委會也說報給中選會了那中選會到現在還沒有推動修法"},{"start":445.931,"end":446.892,"text":"中選會開始進行修法了沒?我兩點說明"},{"start":462.381,"end":485.035,"text":"第一個說明就是說經過兩次委員會那參著專業團體的意見之後不是沒有做處理是能夠讓他用他們那個專業的叫AAC的一個輔助的一個設施讓他能夠能夠能夠他真正的意見能夠很清楚的表達出來同時口譯的人員"},{"start":485.695,"end":487.357,"text":"該法施行後5年內徵徐"},{"start":504.611,"end":523.46,"text":"徵詢障礙團體並且完成制定修正廢紙不符公約的法規這個103年12月3日就施行5年內等於在108年就到期就應該要做修正但是中選會一直沒有修正所以本席要為障礙團體還有"},{"start":524.921,"end":550.409,"text":"每一個人都有參政權我們要為他們來爭取我兩點簡要的說明第一點就這個個案我們有斟酌各方的意見這不是個案未來可能還會有其他人參選未來的部分我們也說就是說我們要做進行檢討一個就是說保障這個身心障礙者他們的權益第二個也要兼顧到選舉的公平性這兼顧的情形之下我們要進行研議有這麼樣一個規劃"},{"start":552.56,"end":553.101,"text":"徐欣瑩委員"}]}},{"id":"149634","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149634","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430058d8f16d0f1abb0d1cfe294bc3fbc1e0f8ba9b0039caa7a656ce73f1065489d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:08:30 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持續訓練這個是我們選手非常重要跟教練非常重要的需要的訊息那最後一個議題就是我們的足球"},{"start":302.496,"end":323.965,"text":"主球在全世界真的太nice了我們台中市也正在興建我要特別謝謝那次我們動土典禮的時候市長你也來了我們一起完成了一個奧運會級的國際級的這個足球場我們的進度也都正常我們每一個環節都很努力台中市政府所以我們希望在足球的這一個類別裡頭"},{"start":326.246,"end":352.056,"text":"當然很多的委員都非常的關心在不管是選手不管是這個場地以及教練那特別從根渣起所以我們迷你足球我們也一直在推動我們希望能夠讓它成為是不管是寓教於樂而且是一個競技賽的一個發展在我們的足球也請市長以及相關單位都必須要全力的支持好吧我們一起加油謝謝謝謝楊委員"}]}},{"id":"149633","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149633","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43009282fda84bace835af4279b9ad9aebfdf8ba9b0039caa7a63f1cde1601a035825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:55:16 - 10:08:30","影片長度":"00:13:14","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-4"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":794,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:08:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T09:55:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":215,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（9時55分）謝謝主席，有請蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。林委員早。"],["林委員楚茵：局長你好。中國的兩會開完之後，大家對於兩岸之間的關係當然是密切地高度關注，不過就像您在報告所說的，中國現在對臺灣的策略就是一手壓一手拉，壓的部分從剛剛特別提到這次三無船的事件可以看得非常清楚，在整個談判的過程中，他們會斟酌、糾結於名詞上面，明明是一個他們也非常無法接受、也嚴格強力取締的三無船，但是當我們在執法的時候，它會故意透過名詞上的定義來增加彼此雙方談判的困難性、拉高對峙，這也是之前我們一直說的，可能會在灰色作戰的部分不斷施壓臺灣，你怎麼來看？像在這次三無船的過程中，它就特別去爭執，明明是我們的執法，而且我們執法單位鎖定的對象是非法的三無船，但是它在名詞上做定義，包括碰撞、撞船這種模擬兩可的字，當一般民眾不懂的時候去造成臺灣內部的分裂，這樣在壓的過程中我們有沒有辦法去化解它？"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員提到這個問題，我覺得委員的切入點也非常好，一開始先看一下中共現在對臺的整體策略是什麼，我們再來看這個個案相關的處理手法，就這次的金廈水域……"],["林委員楚茵：這是一個壓嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，當然……"],["林委員楚茵：就是要把你「壓落底」。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，當然。就這次的事件來看，我們知道三無船事實上也是中共國務院的取締重點，就兩岸人民關係條例而言，取締這種沒有船名的船隻也是我們的法律規定，海巡必須依法執行相關的勤務，只是在這次事件的處理過程中，可以發現中共特別把這個議題轉移到所謂管轄權的爭議上，包括在2月14號發生這個事件之後，2月17號中共的臺辦系統就出來說臺灣方面沒有所謂的禁制水域，然後海警系統也跟進這樣的說法，當然……"],["林委員楚茵：所以我想問的重點就是，事實上它是想要用限縮臺灣主權的方式來壓制臺灣，包括所謂沒有禁制水域這件事情，但是剛剛所提到的比如說是碰撞、撞船還是懲凶，這些名詞都只是前面的包裝，我們有沒有辦法化解這種包裝讓全民看到，因為它要分化的是我們內部大家對於臺灣主權維護的分裂？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，過程當中可以看到有些政治的操作，這包括到所謂該用什麼樣的名詞來形容這次事件，另外也要求我們相關海委會的官員必須要公開道歉等等，這當然有些政治意涵在裡面，更重要的重點是在於虛無化我們的禁限制水域，禁限制水域的劃設是依照兩岸人民關係條例的法律基礎來劃設的，但是中共在這一方面進行挑戰，另外也透過它們的海警船在周邊活動來對我們進行施壓，主要目的就是希望能夠把臺海變成內水化的一個策略操作。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以像這個部分的「壓」其實是展現在方方面面，包括像現在有關於不在籍投票，馬上會進入內政委員會來進行討論，因為它已經一讀付委了。那麼對於你在報告當中也特別提到，中國現在是它說的法令是法令、它說了算，在反間諜法以及保守國家秘密法都還在執行當中，對於不在籍投票，行政院的版本在全國的部分是可以所謂的轉移投票，這個部分其實如果合法、合規，在現有的法規上可以處理、是可行的，也可以來討論，但是其他的版本包括其他境外地區的通訊投票，或者是秘密通訊投票等等，我想請局長就國家安全的角度來看，當中國不斷地在限縮我們原本列在你剛剛說的兩岸人民關係條例裡面的禁制水域，它都可以打破、限縮沒有的時候，現在我們修這樣的一個法規，讓在境外地區就可以來進行投票，尤其是中國現在就像你報告所寫的有反間諜法、有保守國家秘密法，那麼在臺灣以外地區，我甚至於都懷疑在中港澳地區之外的別的國家，中國是可以以反間諜法、以國家安全相關的法規把人給逮捕起來，所以我想更擴大地問，這樣子如果在臺灣地區以外的地方，這樣的版本通過，對國家安全會不會有危害？你們有沒有評估？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，剛剛在進來委員會跟委員們做報告之前，媒體朋友也在關心這一題，主要的重點大概有幾個面向，國際上確實對於境外投票有一些討論，也有一些相關的規劃，有的國家認為可以進行，但是也有很多國家認為進行這樣的通訊投票有它的風險。從國安的角度來講，大概有兩個風險必須要顧慮到，第一個是資安的環境，到底適不適合來進行這種遠距的通訊投票；第二個，假如說不在籍的投票地點是在中國大陸的話，因為依照貴院所通過的反滲透法，對岸完全是符合境外敵對國家的定義，那在這種情況之下，到底國人在當地進行投票的話，能不能夠在自由的意志之下來投票，這或許也是另外的角度要來考慮的。但原則上我們尊重社會各界的討論，只是從國安的角度提出這些警示。"],["林委員楚茵：好，顯然局長包括整個國安團隊都有思考這個層面跟這個面向，但是它是一個即將可能會發生的討論，我也希望國安局可以站在國安的角度，能夠透過這樣子像立法院這種公開的質詢讓更多的國人看清，包括中國就是一個境外的敵對勢力，它始終是存在的，三無船事件其實就明明白白地告訴全國民眾，它們正在企圖破壞我們原本制定的遊戲規則，要來進行打壓臺灣主權，這是「壓」。","但是另外一方面，中國的統戰是方方面面，我想局長一定非常瞭解，過去它們也會施以恩惠包括什麼惠臺21項、惠臺多少點，這個以通促融、以惠促融跟以情促融，它是實實在在、扎實存在的，包括中國也制定了兩岸融合發展示範區，金門加廈門、福州加馬祖或是一直都存在的平潭實驗區，雖然平潭它們在10年前推，現在也做不起來，但是它們就是希望用各式各樣可以以情、以經濟優惠、經濟紅利等等來拉臺灣人民。","那麼我不知道國安局是不是有注意到，這是不是地方包圍中央又新一波的展開，地方政府變成窗口了呢？我們來看這個叫作福馬同城通，而且就像我們的一卡通一樣，如果一旦申請了之後，還可以儲值300塊人民幣，大概是將近臺幣1,300吧！就等於說送你1,300，可以在馬祖境內像搭公車這樣子，我們TPASS至少還要自己花錢，結果它們是直接送錢，像這種以通促融，地方政府當作窗口了嗎？地方包圍中央，這樣一手拉可能會越來越多。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，在中共的拉、壓兩手策略裡面去推動這種促通、促融、促統，一直是它們的一個施政重點。那委員剛才提到了，這個作法非常久了，早期有所謂的海西區，還有平潭的實驗區，那現在又提出了所謂福建融合示範區等等，在這樣的規劃之下，它們主要希望做的是透過大交流的方式，邀請很多人員交流來塑造一種促通、促融的氣氛。不過要注意的是，在過程當中，它們也是希望能夠來吸收臺灣的人才、技術，還有相關的科技，還有投資。所以我們也必須要注意到它的規劃除了有促通、促融的目的以外，也要緩解它目前國內比較低檔的經濟情勢。至於地方包圍中央的部分，當然我們要特別注意，它們現在所提出來的是金廈的通水、通電，還有所謂的通油，甚至也對於金門這邊要不要提出公投來興建所謂的跨海大橋都有相關的著力，所以我們會密切注意各種地方交流。"],["林委員楚茵：我總的來說，如果像是這種所謂……"],["蔡局長明彥：合法的交流我們都重視、我們都尊重，但是假如是有比較特殊的狀況，我們會來注意相關的情資。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為其實本席擔心的是這會不會是一種生活統戰，也就是剛剛你所講的交通、生活，但是它不只是促統，它也會有包括高科技人才，或者是我們的高科技相關的資通訊等等這些安全保障的部分，這個是國安局必須要注意的。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，當然。"],["林委員楚茵：那麼對於它們的生活統戰，你們真的沒有辦法嗎？還是說我們真的就束手無策嗎？所以在這個部分，包括連江縣政府如果它當窗口，是不是依法報備就可以申請？那中國的所謂地方包圍中央，在國安局的情資跟對策上面，真的就看著讓它發生嗎？還是你們會有做相關的通報告訴其他的單位？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這是我們的工作，也就是兩岸的地方交流，合法的我們都尊重，但是對於中共操作的手法、整體的樣態，以及它積極推動交流的主要對象有哪些，背後的政治意圖、目的是什麼，我們都會有相關的情勢研判跟分析給決策高層做參考。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我現在其實希望的是，很多時候不只是給決策高層做參考，必要的時候，因為這些樣態、這些手法，臺灣其實是一個資訊流通的社會，很多時候不說，就會被民眾說：喔！你不敢說，是不是在隱瞞什麼？不如讓社會大眾知道，包括這些樣態、這些手法的背後，比如它送你1,300塊臺幣、300塊人民幣，它要的恐怕不只是在情感上的以通促融，或者是以惠促融，它要的可能是後面更多的大魚，更多有利於中國而會損害到臺灣的，不只是所謂大家有的時候認為的這種好像你干涉我交流、你不讓我交流，這個背後的部分，我也希望局長這裡能夠在必要的時候做一些解密跟說明。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，在相關的活動，我們會把它的樣態做完整的揭露，讓社會大眾或媒體能夠更進一步地知道中共大概的操作手法。另外，假如有涉及到違法的部分，我們會掌握具體的資訊之後，轉移給檢調單位來處理。"],["林委員楚茵：好，那麼另外一個我想問的是，今天早上一個最新的訊息是，距離臺灣只有140公里，菲律賓現在證實美國會出資巴丹群島建港，要防範如果臺灣有事，就可以即刻地對臺灣的周邊做一些防護，不知道局長有沒有看到今天早上這樣的新聞？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，現在美國對於菲律賓，還有南海緊張情勢的升高非常關注，所以也在調整它在菲律賓的相關駐軍。那委員應該也知道，在去年美國就跟菲律賓簽署協議，要增加在菲律賓的相關軍事基地，所以這些基地在經過重新配置之後，包括菲國的離島地區未來可能都會有新的美軍部隊或設施的進駐，我們會注意相關的情勢，以及對區域安全還有臺海安全產生的影響。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以我只想請你給一個結論。不好意思，主席。就是像這樣的軍力部署，也展現了其實臺灣在國際社會上的重要性，也包含了中國的擴權，其實這些東南亞的國家都是擔憂的，所以你可不可以做一個總結，就是這樣的一個方向你怎麼來看？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，事實上我剛剛也跟羅美玲委員有做稍微的說明，也就是臺灣站在中國軍事擴張的第一線，但在過程當中，國際社會對臺灣的關注、支持的聲量越來越高、越來越大，這也鋪陳出我們跟各個國際友盟國家戰略合作的機會，我們會爭取這樣的好機會，謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝。"],["主席（徐委員巧芯代）：謝謝。","接下來請馬委員文君發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-4","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","陳冠廷","邱志偉","賴士葆","張啓楷","吳宗憲","陳永康","林憶君","王定宇","黃仁","王鴻薇","洪申翰"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發\n展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131001_00012"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.00534375,"end":2.8153437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.957843750000002,"end":10.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.864718750000002,"end":15.336593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.84284375,"end":21.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.086593750000002,"end":22.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.12034375,"end":41.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.38096875,"end":28.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.30784375,"end":37.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.89784375,"end":44.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.83409375,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.25596875,"end":45.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.744718750000004,"end":55.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.12346875,"end":86.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.15659375,"end":87.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.38846875,"end":99.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.23471875000001,"end":115.47284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.66284375000001,"end":115.84409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.11409375000001,"end":116.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.62034375,"end":117.78471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.63721875,"end":116.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.78471875000001,"end":148.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.84596875,"end":131.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.29471875000002,"end":154.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.88034375,"end":186.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.02346875,"end":156.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.89596875,"end":162.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.56659375,"end":163.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.22971875000002,"end":186.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.88784375,"end":221.95409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.92034375,"end":243.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.83659375000002,"end":294.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.02284375,"end":306.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.43034375,"end":322.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.01846875,"end":362.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.91096875,"end":374.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.39096875,"end":369.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.25096875,"end":375.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.24221875,"end":412.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.60346875000005,"end":386.95784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.96221875000003,"end":501.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.34909375,"end":505.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.73659375000005,"end":538.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.0859687500001,"end":512.6259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.9509687500001,"end":555.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.5515937499999,"end":575.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.6172187500001,"end":571.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.2622187500001,"end":572.6840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.60346875,"end":621.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.7265937500001,"end":598.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.0815937500001,"end":638.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.42909375,"end":692.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.17596875,"end":707.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":707.4140937500001,"end":729.7397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.41909375,"end":730.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.7522187500001,"end":756.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":756.4865937500001,"end":774.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":764.6540937500001,"end":765.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":770.50971875,"end":770.9484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":774.6440937500001,"end":791.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":791.6372187500001,"end":792.4978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":793.29096875,"end":793.96596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.149,"end":2.474,"text":"有請蔡局長請蔡局長好,謝主席,連委員長"},{"start":11.119,"end":38.097,"text":"局長你好我想其實有關於這個中國的兩會開完之後大家對於兩岸之間的關係當然是密切的高度關注不過我想就像您在報告所說的中國現在對台灣的策略就是一手壓一手拉那麼壓的部分其實從剛剛特別提到的有關於這一次三無船的事件可以看得非常清楚在整個談判的過程當中他們會針對"},{"start":39.418,"end":39.878,"text":"林楚茵"},{"start":56.629,"end":84.958,"text":"來增加彼此雙方談判的困難性拉高對峙這個也是之前其實我們都一直說的可能在灰色作戰的部分他會不斷的施壓台灣你怎麼來看如果說像這一次現在三五傳的過程當中他就特別的要去爭執在明明是我們的執法而且我們執法的單位所做所定的對象是非法的三五傳但是他會用名詞上面去做定義"},{"start":85.818,"end":92.28,"text":"包括碰撞、撞船這種模擬兩可一般民眾不懂的時候去造成台灣內部的分裂那這樣的狀況是壓的過程當中我們有沒有辦法去化解它"},{"start":100.751,"end":115.285,"text":"謝謝委員提到這個問題我覺得委員的切入點也非常好也就一開始先看一下中共現在對台的整體的策略是什麼我們再來看他這個個案的處理的相關的手法那就這一次的今夏水域這是一個壓嗎?就是要壓囉?對"},{"start":118.347,"end":139.723,"text":"對,對,當然,就這一次的事件來看,我們可以知道三無船的取締事實上在中共的國務院也是取締的重點。那就我們的兩岸人民關係條例取締這種沒有船名的船隻也是我們的法律規定,海巡必須要依法來執行相關的勤務。只是在這一次的事件的處理過程當中,可以發現到中共特別把這個議題轉移到所謂的管轄權的爭議上。"},{"start":142.285,"end":145.988,"text":"所以我想問的重點就是事實上他是想要用限縮台灣的主權的方式來壓制台灣包括所謂沒有禁制水域這件事情"},{"start":166.286,"end":183.414,"text":"但是剛剛所提到的比如說是碰撞還是撞船還是逞凶這些名詞都只是前面的包裝但是我們有沒有辦法化解這種包裝讓全民看到因為他要分化的是我們內部大家對於台灣主權維護的分裂"},{"start":187.266,"end":209.196,"text":"對,過程當中可以看到有一些政治的操作這包括到所謂該用什麼樣的名詞來形容這一次的事件那另外也要求我們的相關的海委會的官員必須要公開道歉等等的這當然有一些政治的意涵在裡面那更重要的重點是在於虛無化我們的禁縣制水域禁縣制水域的劃設是依照兩岸人民關係條例的法律基礎"},{"start":209.696,"end":211.558,"text":"所以,像這個部分的壓,其實是展現在方方面面,來看下一張。"},{"start":227.856,"end":243.593,"text":"包括像現在有關於不在籍投票馬上會進入內政委員會來進行討論因為他已經一讀附委了那麼對於你在報告當中也特別提到中國現在是他說的法令是法令他說了算"},{"start":245.543,"end":255.094,"text":"在反間諜法以及保守國家秘密法都還在執行當中對於不在籍投票行政院的版本在全國的部分是可以所謂的轉移投票這個部分其實如果合法合規在現有的法規上可以處理是可行的也可以來討論"},{"start":263.763,"end":273.326,"text":"但是其他的版本包括了其他境外地區的通訊投票或者是秘密通訊投票等等我想請局長你就國家安全的角度來看當中國不斷的是在限縮我們原本列在你剛剛說的兩岸人民關係條例裡面的禁制水域他都可以打破限縮沒有的時候現在我們修降的一個法規讓在境外地區就可以來進行投票尤其是中國現在"},{"start":290.39,"end":305.466,"text":"就像您報告所寫的有反間諜法有保守國家秘密法那麼在台灣以外地區我其實包括我甚至於都懷疑在中港澳地區之外的別的國家中國是可以"},{"start":306.588,"end":308.81,"text":"反間諜法以國家安全相關的法規是可以把人給逮捕起來所以我想更擴大地問這樣子如果在台灣地區以外的地方這樣的版本通過對國家安全會不會有危害你們有沒有評估"},{"start":324.088,"end":343.656,"text":"剛剛在進來委員會跟委員做報告之前媒體朋友也在關心這一題那主要的重點大概有幾個面向國際上確實對於一些境外的投票有一些討論也有一些相關的規劃那有的國家認為可以進行但是也有很多的國家認為進行這樣的通訊投票也有它的風險那從國安的角度來講大概有兩個風險必須要顧慮到第一個"},{"start":345.777,"end":373.866,"text":"是治安的環境到底適不適合來進行這種遠距的通訊投票?第二個,假如說這個不在己的投票地點是在中國大陸的話因為依照貴院所通過的反滲透法對岸完全是符合境外敵對國家的一個定義那在這種情況之下我們到底國人在當地進行投票的話能不能夠在自由的意志之下來投票?這或許也是另外一個角度要來考慮的但原則上我們尊重社會各界的討論只是從國安的角度提出這些的警示"},{"start":374.266,"end":387.252,"text":"好,顯然局長包括整個我們的國安團隊都有思考這個層面跟這個面向但是它是一個即將可能會發生的討論我也希望國安局可以站在國安的角度能夠透過這樣子像立法院這種公開的質詢"},{"start":391.294,"end":391.694,"text":"這是壓,但是另外一方面來看下一張"},{"start":413.021,"end":434.208,"text":"中國的統戰是方方面面我想局長一定非常了解過去呢他們也會以施以恩惠包括什麼惠台21項啦惠台多少點啦這個以通促融以惠促融跟以勤促融他是實實在在紮實存在的包括呢中國也制定了兩岸有融合的示範發展區金門加廈門"},{"start":436.869,"end":449.7,"text":"福州加馬祖或是一直都存在的平潭實驗區雖然平潭現在他們在10年前推但是也做不起來但是他們就是希望用各式各樣可以以情以經濟優惠經濟紅利等等的來拉台灣人民"},{"start":452.962,"end":462.748,"text":"來請看下一張那麼我不知道國安局是不是有注意到這是不是地方包圍中央又新一波的展開地方政府變成窗口了呢我們來看這個叫做福馬同城通而且就像我們的一卡通一樣如果你一旦申請了之後還可以儲值300塊人民幣大概是將近台幣1300吧"},{"start":476.016,"end":501.218,"text":"就等於說送你一千三可以在這個馬祖的境內像搭公車這樣子我們TPAS至少還要自己花錢結果他們是直接送錢我們TPAS我們還要自己花錢結果他可以直接送錢像這種以通促融地方政府當作窗口了嗎地方包圍中央這樣的一手拉可能會越來越多"},{"start":502.403,"end":522.352,"text":"對,在中共的拉押兩手策略裡面去推動這種促通、促融、促統一直是他們的一個施政的重點我們剛才提到了這個做法非常的久了早期有所謂的海西區還有平潭的實驗區那現在又提出了所謂的福建的融合示範區等等"},{"start":523.252,"end":537.957,"text":"在這樣的一個規劃之下他們主要希望做的是透過大交流的方式邀請很多的人員交流來塑造一種觸通、觸容的一個氣氛不過要注意的是在過程當中他們也是希望能夠來吸收台灣的人才"},{"start":539.028,"end":539.389,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":556.61,"end":557.431,"text":"我總的來說,如果像是這種所謂……"},{"start":575.987,"end":599.297,"text":"因為其實本席擔心的是這會不會是一種生活統戰也就是剛剛您所講的交通、生活但是它不只是促統它也會有包括高科技人才或者是我們的高科技的相關的通訊等等的這些安全保障的部分這個是國安局必須要注意的那麼對於他們的生活統戰你們真的沒有辦法嗎還是說我們真的就束手無策嗎來看下一張"},{"start":605.419,"end":608.042,"text":"所以在這個部分包括新聞縣政府如果他當窗口是不是依法報備就可以申請那中國的這個所謂地方包圍中央我們在國安局的情資跟對策上面真的就讓他看著發生嗎還是你們會有做相關的通報告訴"},{"start":621.557,"end":637.807,"text":"對對,這是我們的工作,這是我們的工作,也就是兩岸的地方的交流,合法的我們都尊重,但是對於中共操作的手法,整體的樣態,以及他積極推動交流的主要的對象有哪些,背後的政治意圖、目的是什麼,我們都會有相關的情勢研判跟分析,給決策高層做參考。"},{"start":638.908,"end":646.713,"text":"我現在其實希望的是很多時候不只是給決策高層做參考必要的時候因為這些樣態、這些手法因為台灣其實是一個資訊流通的社會很多時候不說就會被民眾說你不敢說是不是在隱瞞什麼不如讓社會大眾知道包括這些樣態、這些手法"},{"start":660.643,"end":684.603,"text":"他的背後比如他送你1300塊台幣、300塊人民幣他要的恐怕不只是在情感上的以通促融或者是以惠促融他要的可能是後面更多的大於更多的有利於中國的而會損害到台灣的不是只是所謂大家有的時候認為的這種好像你干涉我交流你不讓我交流"},{"start":685.003,"end":705.241,"text":"那這個背後的部分我也希望能夠局長這裡要在必要的時候做一些解密跟說明在相關的一個活動我們會把他的樣態做完整的揭露讓社會大眾或媒體能夠更進一步的知道中共大概操作的手法另外假如有涉及到違法的部分我們會掌握具體的資訊之後轉移給檢調單位來處理"},{"start":707.443,"end":729.453,"text":"好 那麼另外一個我想問的是說今天早上一個最新的訊息是距離台灣只有140公里菲律賓現在證實美國會出資巴灘群島建港要防範如果台灣有事那麼就可以即刻的對台灣的周邊做一些防護不知道局長有沒有收看到今天早上這樣的一個新聞有"},{"start":731.156,"end":756.258,"text":"現在美國對於菲律賓還有南海緊張情勢的升高非常的關注所以也在調整他在菲律賓的相關的駐軍那委員應該也知道在去年美國就跟菲律賓簽署的協議要增加在菲律賓的相關的軍事的基地所以這些基地在經過重新配置之後包括菲國的離島地區未來可能都會有新的美軍部隊或設施的進駐這我們會注意相關的情勢以及對區域安全還有太安全產生的影響"},{"start":756.818,"end":774.01,"text":"所以我只想請你給一個結論不好意思主席就是像這樣的一個軍力的部署也展現了其實台灣在國際社會上的重要性也包含了中國的擴權其實這些東南亞的國家都擔憂的所以你可不可以做一個總結就是這樣的一個方向你怎麼來看"},{"start":774.79,"end":790.381,"text":"對,我剛剛也事實上跟羅美琳委員有說稍微的說明也就是說台灣站在中國軍事擴張的第一線但在過程當中國際社會對於台灣的關注支持的聲量越來越高越來越大那這也鋪陳出我們跟各個國際有門國家戰略合作的機會我們會爭取這樣的好機會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149632","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149632","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300eccb8d849b6cc5111cfe294bc3fbc1e0f8ba9b0039caa7a68d85ac98af4f42af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"10:00:11 - 10:08:28","影片長度":"00:08:17","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部列席就「國家運動科學中心如何協助運動選手，提升參加國際競賽成績之具體作為。」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":497,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:08:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:00:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":492,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（10時）我請體育署署長。"],["主席：我們請鄭署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：署長，我建議你可能有機會要多上一點媒體的訪問，否則連本委員會的葉元之委員都不認得您的長相，所以跟委員的溝通要來多加強，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：第一個，署長，我們政府總體的體育預算，從2016年度的79.8億，一直增長到現在，已經超過130億以上了，所以小英總統也多次的對外、對國人來表達，他對國民體育、對我們臺灣體育發展的重視，所以這些年來我們的國訓中心，不管是整建計畫，還是今天運科中心成立行政法人相關的運作，國人都非常的重視。總統會重視體育不只是總統的期待，這也是我們臺灣社會對於我們自己國家選手的期待以及重視。就我們現在目前的制度，單項協會是我們參與眾多、諸多的比賽當中，我們臺灣跟國際賽事間的窗口嘛，也就是說，如果我們的單項協會出狀況、表現不佳，它就會影響到選手的權益以及球迷的權益，同時也會傷害到政府的形象以及我們的國際聲譽，署長你認同嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，完全認同。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以署長，今天還是要藉由這個時間再次來跟你談，因為從我們上週在這個地方質詢到現在，我們的足協爭議可以說是連環爆，一週之內道歉三次，我相信署長你也非常的清楚，前面委員也有質詢到。有關於最近一次，我們資格賽的場地竟然在比賽前才發現還沒有借到場地，這個事情能不能請署長簡單做說明？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這個部分源自於在去年7月的時候，足協的競賽組換人，所以它有行政疏失，的確有行政疏失，它忘記去臺北市體育局的線上場地租借系統去登錄；所以8月的時候，理事長有親自去拜訪臺北市體育局局長請求協助；9月的時候，足協的確有到控留會議，但是因為它7月並沒有去做登錄，所以9月的控留會議它其實是沒有發言權，當然場地就沒有。當時體育局局長是有協助他們11月馬來西亞的賽事，馬來西亞的賽事因為他們草皮養護這部分的量能，當時實在是不太足夠，所以導致沒辦法進行。而這一次主要還是歸咎在足協的行政疏失，當然我也希望臺北市體育局在草皮養護的量能上可以再加把勁，我可以理解臺北市體育局為什麼沒辦法借，但是這部分足協還是要再加強。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒錯，所以體育署是2月的時候才收到足協的發函請我們來協助、協調？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實我們從去年11月接到……"],["吳委員沛憶：你們事先知道有這樣的情況？"],["鄭署長世忠：就已經知道，而且這幾個月一直在努力做雙方的協調。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒錯，但到2月才正式收到發函，沒有錯吧？"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：是吧？"],["鄭署長世忠：我3月1號有開協調會。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以署長你也說確實足協是有行政疏失。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：因為忘記了！不管後面當然是要做補救措施，但是起因是因為忘記了。署長，如果你的科員，如果你們署內的同仁負責承辦這麼重要的世界級的比賽，他可能會影響到我們選手的權益，然後他告訴你說「抱歉，我忘記了、我忘記去登記了」，這不是第一年舉辦這樣的比賽，這確實是行政疏失沒有錯！我現在要問的是，連連的發生行政疏失，所有的民眾都在講說，我們政府就是拿足協沒有辦法。署長我請教你，體育署就是拿單項協會沒有辦法嗎？有辦法、沒辦法，不是你說了算，也不是我說了算。","根據我們的國民體育法，究竟體育署對單項協會，法律要求我們要輔導，到底賦予我們哪些職權？署長能不能說明一下？我現在講的是，我不是要求你必須要用哪一個方式，而是我們實際上，體育署是有哪些職權，當然我們就要評估實際上面，因為你每個動作都會有連帶的效應，要怎麼樣做才真正能夠解決問題，這個我們要做多方評估，但是我們不是毫無方法嘛，對不對？根據我們的國體法，體育署有什麼樣的職權來協助、輔導及督導單項協會呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實我們在每年的訪評時，這些的、過去一年的表現其實都會列入我們的參考，當然……"],["吳委員沛憶：訪評的表現，結果好與壞會影響到什麼？"],["鄭署長世忠：這會影響到它下一年度整個年度工作計畫的經費，比方說去年的電競協會，就因為一些形象的問題，在今年就被砍了7成。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以訪評的結果也會來決定我們補助給協會的金額嘛，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：影響非常大。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們體育署不是說：「喔！當我們是塑膠，不管你怎麼做我們都補一樣的金額」沒有，不是這樣嘛，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：沒有錯。是，可是委員，在這之間我絕對不會去損害選手的權益……"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯，因為減少補助金額的同時，最後受害的也有可能會是選手，這是我們在治理上面一直以來蘿蔔與棒子之間的困難嘛。"],["鄭署長世忠：沒有錯。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以，署長，我是想要提幾個具體的建議。第一個，因為我看最近體育署也促成了網球……"],["鄭署長世忠：籃球……"],["吳委員沛憶：協會以及選手之間的座談，然後包含署長也公開承諾會協助足協以及女足之間的座談會，我覺得這部分我們能夠就個案事件來協助介入督導。因為不只是足協，上週我們也有提到，最近包括男籃也有工會跟協會之間溝通上面的困難，是不是能夠請我們體育署也承諾協助男籃來舉辦三方的座談會？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，在籃球的部分，我們基本上之前已經有要求，他們也同意，所以這部分已經在進行當中，包括足協（足球協會）他們也已經完全認同。"],["吳委員沛憶：包括足協以及男籃，我們體育署是否能在2個月內來協助召開三方的座談會，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：沒有問題。"],["吳委員沛憶：未來我具體建議，在我們的訪評指標之內，我希望我們體育署可以要求單項協會要例行性的，每年一次例行性的來跟選手，如果有工會就與工會，如果沒有工會就與選手來進行座談、溝通，這能不能夠具體納入我們的指標？否則我們不需要協會，協會就是協助我們體育署來治理，署長，你能夠這樣開幾次三方座談，對不對？我們有這麼多的項目，是不是可以具體的納入我們針對單項協會的訪評指標？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實我們在運動員委員會的部分是有要求，但是我也跟這些協會講，當你的協會裡面有職業聯盟，還有企業聯賽這些團體，你必須要另外再去召開座談會，這個部分已經有要求了。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，我們具體的去要求，好不好？謝謝。時間暫停，我請運科中心。"],["黃執行長啟煌：委員你好。"],["吳委員沛憶：執行長好。我想國人都非常期待運科中心對我們選手帶來的助益，我現在想要具體請問有關於霹靂舞，因為它是新興運動，我知道過去我們臺北市北市大也有運科中心，過去就有協助霹靂舞的選手進行相關的項目。請問運科中心跟北市大是不是有簽一個合作的備忘錄？"],["黃執行長啟煌：是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：那未來我們會怎麼樣來進行合作？"],["黃執行長啟煌：我們會先去跟選手跟教練先訪談，確實依他們的需求來擬具具體的作法協助他們，因為我們不能亂做……"],["吳委員沛憶：是。"],["黃執行長啟煌：我們一定要根據選手跟教練的需求，擬定他們需要的方案內容予以協助。"],["吳委員沛憶：是。我今天要特別提出跟執行長討論的就是，因為我看到運科中心對外也有表達，有一些新興運動，例如霹靂舞這個項目，我們過去比較少充足的資料庫數據跟資料，所以我們還需要一段時間的準備才知道如何來協助選手。"],["黃執行長啟煌：是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：這些新興項目，例如霹靂舞已經納入今年的奧運了，所以我希望我們運科中心是不是可以積極一點的來投入新興運動的運科相關的籌備……"],["黃執行長啟煌：一定可以。"],["吳委員沛憶：讓我們可以儘早地協助選手，可不可以做到？"],["黃執行長啟煌：是，可以。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員。","再來請楊瓊瓔委員，質詢時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":280,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","萬美玲","葉元之","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","范雲","羅美玲","牛煦庭","吳春城","徐巧芯","黃國昌","柯志恩","林倩綺","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":219,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部列席就「國家運動科學中心如何協助運動選手，提升參加國際競賽成績之具體作\n為。」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.03346875,"end":75.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.63096875000001,"end":77.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.70659375000001,"end":106.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.36034375000001,"end":157.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.00971875000002,"end":136.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.16471875000002,"end":143.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.19409375,"end":144.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.10534375,"end":145.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.14971875,"end":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年下一年度它的整個年度工作計畫的經費比方說像去年的電競協會就因為跟一些形象的問題"},{"start":283.72,"end":285.202,"text":"所以訪評的結果也會來決定我們補助給協會的金額嘛 對不對我們體育署不是說當我們是塑膠不管你怎麼做我們都補一樣的金額沒有 不是這樣嘛 對不對"},{"start":298.882,"end":298.902,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":322.619,"end":344.548,"text":"﹗"},{"start":344.588,"end":344.608,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":374.548,"end":374.568,"text":"﹚吳沛憶"},{"start":391.834,"end":392.274,"text":"時間暫停,那我請運科中心"},{"start":418.576,"end":439.965,"text":"市長好我想國人都非常期待運科中心對我們選手帶來的注意我現在具體想要請問我們的霹靂舞因為它是新興運動我知道過去我們台北市北市大也有運科中心過去就有協助霹靂舞的選手進行相關的這些項目我們運科中心跟我們北市大是不是有簽合作的備忘錄是的那未來我們會怎麼樣來進行合作"},{"start":444.608,"end":458.255,"text":"我們會先去跟選手跟教練先訪談確實從他們的需求當中來擬計具體的做法來協助他們因為我們不能亂做我們一定要根據選手跟教練的需求擬定他們需要的方案內容予以協助"},{"start":459.095,"end":482.641,"text":"我今天要特別提出跟執行長討論就是說因為我看到我們運科中心對外也有表達有一些新興運動例如霹靂舞這個項目我們過去比較少充足的資料庫數據跟資料所以我們還需要一段時間的準備才知道如何來協助選手所以這些新興項目例如霹靂舞已經納入今年的奧運了所以我希望我們運科中心是不是可以積極一點的來投入新興運動的這個運動"},{"start":485.262,"end":485.383,"text":"謝謝吳沛憶委員"}]}},{"id":"149631","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149631","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430020fb95a2f6ac1cb043c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a6ec2d40718126b8875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"09:57:11 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主委本席因為今天有很多人說到不在即投票 是在本席的領委 覺得說你們走走 你不敢說 我替你們說因為最主要就是 你們不在即投票那在台上的投票是誰最會吃我們的"},{"start":35.202,"end":48.734,"text":"因為是一個國家沒民主沒自由的國家你在那申請投票的時候他甘會想到他自己想要投什麼人可以投主委是不是你有這個歡樂來本市所講的這個問題"},{"start":58.431,"end":61.634,"text":"民主選舉有很多條件,這個條件對大陸來,其實不限定在特定的地區,像2020年到2024年這兩次大選,國內外的報導"},{"start":78.888,"end":93.914,"text":"國內的情治單位所提供的警訊國內事務單位所處理的個案在在的證明什麼事情一個對民主選舉最大的威脅就是境外勢力的竊選這是很清楚的事情所以當我們在考慮這個選制的改革的時候不能夠不把這種風險要考慮在裡面這就是全部機關所擔心的問題"},{"start":106.018,"end":118.641,"text":"因為不能因為境外勢力的一個借權,我們反而是提供給他一個管道,所以我們要守得很好,要怎麼守得很好呢?這樣主委你所說的就是海外通訊的投票啊?不只是這樣,無所不在"},{"start":125.263,"end":131.068,"text":"這就很嚴重了,我們的遙遙無盡要用不在一起投票的時候。這不是跟我們台灣面臨的這種挑戰,美國的選舉不想讓大家站起來。我知道啦,有很多國家都實施下去覺得說,哇,這不公平不行,趕快再做一次,是有很多國家也是這樣啦。"},{"start":146.68,"end":158.549,"text":"這個不在籍投票不是不能做,但是特殊的一個最主要你要做在人民信任的所在嘛,你沒有信任那個說實在的,你會怕怕,我也會怕"},{"start":164.018,"end":177.873,"text":"我相信大家要共同民對不在即投票像你剛才所說的,我們說實在的,你說不在即投票的時候"},{"start":178.914,"end":181.577,"text":"總統都一樣,副總統都一樣,整座就是整座,但在選舉當中不一樣的地方,有76個投票不一樣的候選人這也是很嚴重的分析,你不能出客車"},{"start":203.018,"end":205.36,"text":"所以在這裏面本身要跟你說,你一直覺得說,大廟的時候是歡樂剛才你所說的,可以有什麼好克服的地方嗎?來,主委來"},{"start":218.372,"end":220.796,"text":"我要報告的就是 其實這個不在籍投票對於選務的衝擊這是要再基礎喔不是沒問題有問題 你想想說 立法院選舉如果說要用不在籍投票的時間 76張票"},{"start":234.975,"end":235.135,"text":"選舉委員：王美惠"},{"start":259.928,"end":267.515,"text":"基本的問題最重要的是什麼?就是說你選舉競爭的公平性很重要啦!公平性!這最重要!所以本事要跟你說你不在於投票,在沒有民主主義的國家投票出來,會對一個好選人"},{"start":277.924,"end":278.104,"text":"主席"},{"start":293.34,"end":293.8,"text":"選舉委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":319.775,"end":331.579,"text":"主委,你剛才所解釋的,在本席所要說的就是說,你要說已經要契用在4月70要契用嘛,對,這個連署當中,沒有人知道,沒有人是你說要契用的,大家都想說,現在開始了,不簡單,你們的總選委要開始讓人整個電子連署了啦,"},{"start":349.591,"end":360.973,"text":"但是你們的資訊讓人覺得那個氣氊真的沒有人知道主委你知道這個氣氊真的所以本市在這裡希望你們要再開記者會再說明我們有安排對 要再安排再來在剛才你說選委員會時的滿意度93%"},{"start":379.658,"end":406.253,"text":"對選務工作人員服務態度高達3﹑高達4﹑主委,在電台的選,要選的選本選後,跟你談到說,很多地方遇到身心障礙,的人要去投票,絕對要想到他們的權利。是。主委,你有看到,你看,唯一一個身心的好選人,"},{"start":407.912,"end":419.998,"text":"陳靜安他說什麼?他說他看到老闆在那裡還可以回去,結果他沒辦法回去,他跟媽媽就要再去死一年以後,才有辦法回去。主委,我們做這個真的不到位啦,在本社在這個季順的時候,就跟你們說,一定要變民,像電影的,"},{"start":437.096,"end":451.705,"text":"您敢不去統計說,目前有我們的不方便的有多少,這次我們要檢討多少,我相信他們都沒有做到,都有哪會變成這樣,那這個問題是怎樣來,主委我們不要講白話,來講這個問題就好了。"},{"start":458.714,"end":471.083,"text":"我不是跟你講一半的事主委我說這個...如果高...百分之九十八以上都有...你不是檢核合格就是有輔助的設施有輔助的設施主委我的精選的時間也剩十幾秒以後我覺得我們已經要做了你不要說我做到九十八%九十千%"},{"start":482.991,"end":490.213,"text":"是不是那2、3%可以說做得那麼好?那有兩種可能,一種就是說你老闆有多寶貴不要在那個地方一種就是說你用人力來輔助他在那裡投票要怎麼多寶貴去投他如果說正經就沒辦法改善這個無障礙設施的話那就要換地方了什麼種都沒辦法改善你看人家餐廳怎麼會到處怎麼做"},{"start":511.337,"end":514.381,"text":"所以臨時檢疫的設施都有做啦 能夠做的我們都有做主委 針對這個麻煩報告給我"},{"start":529.738,"end":538.54,"text":"因為我覺得每一個我們都要講白,不是跟我們的好選人、紳士、好選人而已我相信每一個地方都有這個問題本身跟你講過了,我們要方便民有的他真的在輪椅上的時候,看真的不方便,他還回來了,主委"},{"start":555.222,"end":565.713,"text":"真的,我們這個問題,要深入去用,你還要有進步的空間,以上是,我也拜託啦,就是說如果有遇到這個問題時,要把我們的工作人員歡迎"}]}},{"id":"149630","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149630","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43002de291c09c23091dee83bb1dd0927c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6e89831f4f6d40dec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"09:58:19 - 10:06:23","影片長度":"00:08:04","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":484,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:06:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T09:58:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":298,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（9時58分）主席，我想請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["張委員嘉郡：主委，我想要請教主委有沒有用過Foodpanda或者是Uber Eats外送平臺買過東西？"],["李主任委員鎂：有。"],["張委員嘉郡：那你覺得方便嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：算方便。"],["張委員嘉郡：那除了Uber Eats跟Foodpanda，你有使用過其他的平臺嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我沒有使用過其他的平臺，但是我知道有一些其他平臺。"],["張委員嘉郡：根據統計，利用外送平臺送美食甚至購物的，在臺灣已經有超過八成的人在使用，主委知道從事外送的相關人員總人數大概是多少嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：這一方面我比……"],["張委員嘉郡：本席跟主委分享，是14.5萬人，其實人數是非常多，這個是根據勞動部公布的資料。為什麼本席會問這個問題呢？是因為現在市場盛傳Foodpanda可能會出售在亞洲的業務給Uber Eats，如果結合成一間公司的話，市占率可能會超過八成，依據公平交易法第十一條，必須向主管機關提出申報，不曉得目前是否已經有接到業者提出申報，或者詢問相關結合的事宜？"],["李主任委員鎂：還沒有結合申報的案件，就是Foodpanda跟Uber Eats，目前沒有。"],["張委員嘉郡：我記得第十一條上面寫說，假設結合的事業占市場的三分之一以上，就必須要向公平交易委員會這邊申請，這個是否正確？"],["李主任委員鎂：沒有錯，如果以Foodpanda跟Uber Eats這兩家，假設他們要結合的話，它應該是已經合致公平法要求申報的結合門檻。"],["張委員嘉郡：雖然到目前為止還沒有接到他們的申請，但未來不排除他們可能會結合。依據公平會過去的慣例，是否會允許它結合呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們到時候要看它的整個結合計畫，同時會進一步瞭解雙方合作的內容。基本上，對於這麼重大，而且是社會矚目的案件，我們在審查的時候會舉辦公聽會，也會邀請相關的業者，同業競爭，包括學者、上下游關係，以及其他的團體，會徵詢多方的意見之後，再由委員會來討論，也包括會邀請消費者團體。"],["張委員嘉郡：這一點也是本席所擔憂的。假設它真的、勢必會結合，或者你允許它結合，一定要有一些附加的條件，避免它利用其市場的規模來控制市場，這一點可能要請主委多加關心。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，它對於限制競爭是不是造成不利益，對於經濟的利益如何，我們會多方來評估。"],["張委員嘉郡：因為公平會的職責就是在守護這個市場機制，避免事業利用其市場優勢來影響市場。今年公平會就對大富媒體、凱擘違反當初併購時的附加條款裁罰，目前兩間被罰的事業體是不是有提出異議呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：這一部分我們提出以後，他們也有提出行政爭訟。"],["張委員嘉郡：其實本席的重點還是在於這個外送平台的結合，希望公平會要負起嚴格把關的功能。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：另外，其實保障不只是……有三個方向，供貨的商家、外送的人員跟消費者，我想他們是影響最深，然後又毫無議價能力的人。對於外送人員的保障，全國超過14萬個外送人員，幾乎都是這兩大平台所屬。過去外送人員究竟是承攬制或者是僱傭制常常有爭議，對此爭議必須與此次的結合，更明確地去保障外送人員的機制，這一點可能要請公平會銘記於心。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，這一部分將來如果真的有結合申報，我們應該要徵詢哪一些事業團體或是政府部門，這我們一定會很審慎來處理的。"],["張委員嘉郡：接下來我想要問，可能大家目前都非常concern的一件事情，就是衛福部發文取消了醫療機構掛號費的備查制度，不曉得主委怎麼看這件事情？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想衛福部的政策應該有經過考量，這個政策取消之後，在市場上我們最關切的是，醫療院所之間會不會聯合漲價？"],["張委員嘉郡：是。"],["李主任委員鎂：如果是聯合漲價，在公平法是不允許的，所以我們會很密切地跟地方衛生機關合作來掌握訊息。"],["張委員嘉郡：現在這個爭議就是，民眾非常憂心，如果醫療院所肆意漲價，對於醫療資源缺乏地區的這些居民是影響非常大的，所以對於衛福部卸責說如果醫療院所聯合漲價就去跟公平會檢舉啊！對於這件事情，你是怎麼看？"],["李主任委員鎂：醫療院所如果聯合漲價，這個違反公平交易法的規定，公平交易委員會當然要依法查處。"],["張委員嘉郡：那我請問一下主委，你覺得你們人手夠嗎？因為你知道，現在是一條街十幾間診所耶！現在是連診所都不在它的監督範圍之內了。如果所有的民眾都來檢舉，你覺得你們的人手夠嗎？你們真的不打算向行政院提出抗議嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想各部會的政策有它形成的過程，但是公平會作為一個競爭主管機關，即便是人手不夠也應該要積極處理。"],["張委員嘉郡：我想你們當然是有苦難言，畢竟衛福部是泱泱大部，他們自己應該盡的責任不做，卻把責任都推給你們一個委員會，我真的是為你們感到不值啊！醫療院所其實是一個特許行業，主管機關就應該負起監督的責任。如果說現在像負責產銷均衡制度的農業部都不負責了，所有問題都去向你們檢舉，負責金融管理的金管會也不管金融機構的行為了，全部都回歸市場機制，有問題都去向公平會檢舉啊！NCC也不管傳媒了，都去向公平會檢舉就好了，那以後我們中華民國的行政機關都可以裁撤掉，留下公平會就好了，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：不是這樣，公平會處理的是影響市場競爭秩序的行為，如果不跟競爭秩序有關的行為，這個在各部會應該有它另外的處理機制。"],["張委員嘉郡：我是建議，公平會你們應該要趕快提出抗議，怎麼會衛福部這麼多預算、這麼多人手的部會，他們自己特許的行業，他們自己不監管，然後全部都丟給你們，你真的覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：只要是公平法適用的範圍，我們就應該積極處理。"],["張委員嘉郡：好喔！你就加油吧！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員。","接下來我們請蔡易餘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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eat外送平台買過東西有有那你覺得方便嗎"},{"start":25.592,"end":25.612,"text":"總統委員"},{"start":53.987,"end":62.33,"text":"本席跟主委分享是14.5萬人其實人數是非常的多這個是根據勞動部公布的資料那為什麼本席會問這個問題呢是因為現在市場盛傳Foodpanda可能會出售他在亞洲的業務給Uber Eats"},{"start":77.396,"end":103.014,"text":"那如果結合成一間公司的話那市佔率可能會超過八成那依據公平交易法第11條必須向主管機關提出申報不曉得目前是否已經有接到業者提出申報或者詢問相關結合的事宜還沒有結合申報的案件就是普天達跟Uber E目前沒有"},{"start":105.091,"end":120.254,"text":"所以我記得第11條上面寫說假設結合的事業占市長的三分之一以上就必須要向公平交易委員會這邊來申請這個是否正確沒有錯就是如果以復篇大跟Uber E這兩家假設他們要結合的話他應該是已經合自公平法要求要申報的結合門檻"},{"start":132.977,"end":145.591,"text":"雖然他們現在到目前為止還沒有接到他們的申請但未來不排除他們可能會結合那依據公平會過去的這個慣例是否會允許他結合呢?"},{"start":147.073,"end":170.196,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":170.296,"end":191.114,"text":"以及其他的團體會徵詢多方的意見之後再由委員會來討論也包括會邀請消費者團體這一點也是本席所擔憂的一定假設真的他勢必會結合或者是你允許他結合一定要有一些附加的條件避免他利用其市場的規模來控制市場"},{"start":194.036,"end":215.247,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":216.469,"end":226.726,"text":"是凱基違反當初併購時的附加條款裁罰目前兩間被罰的事業體是不是有提出異議?"},{"start":228.939,"end":246.232,"text":"這部分我們提出以後他們有提出行政徵送是那所以呢其實本席的重點還是在於說這個外送平台的結合希望公平會要負起嚴格把關的這個功能那另外呢其實呢"},{"start":247.793,"end":269.88,"text":"這個保障不只是只是這個有三個方向就是說供貨的商家外送的人員跟消費者我想他們是影響最深然後毫無溢價能力的人那對於外送人員的保障全國超過14萬個外送人員幾乎都是這兩大平台所屬那過去外送人員"},{"start":270.62,"end":294.265,"text":"究竟是承攬制或者是僱傭制常常有爭議那對此爭議必須與此次的結合更明確的去保障外送人員的機制這一點可能要請公平會要鳴記於心是 這部分將來如果真的有結合申報我們應該要徵詢哪一些事業團體或是政府部門這我們一定會很審慎來處理"},{"start":298.007,"end":311.864,"text":"接下來我想要問可能大家現在目前都非常concern的一件事情就是衛福部發文取消了醫療機構這個掛號費的備查制度 不曉得主委怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":312.805,"end":319.892,"text":"我想衛福部他的政策應該有經過他的考量那這個政策取消之後在市場上我們最關切的是這個醫療院所之間會不會聯合漲價如果是聯合漲價在公平法是不允許的所以我們會這個很密切的跟地方衛生機關合作"},{"start":332.423,"end":360.902,"text":"現在這個爭議就是民眾非常的憂心欸如果醫療院所4億漲價對於醫療資源缺乏的地區的這些居民是影響非常大的所以呢對於衛福部謝澤說如果醫療院所聯合漲價就去跟公平會檢舉啊你對於這件事情你是怎麼看醫療院所如果聯合漲價這個違反公平交易法的規定公平交易委員會當然要依法查處"},{"start":362.123,"end":370.287,"text":"那我可以請問一下諸位你覺得你們人手夠嗎因為你知道現在是一條街十幾間診所他是連診所他都"},{"start":372.08,"end":392.051,"text":"在他的這個監督範圍之內了那如果這個所有的民眾都來檢舉你們的人手你覺得你們夠嗎我們真的不打算向行政院提出抗議嗎我想這個部會他的政策有他的這個行程的過程但是公平會作為一個競爭主管機關即便是人手不夠也是應該要積極處理"},{"start":393.832,"end":412.36,"text":"我想你們當然是有苦難也但是畢竟這個衛福部是央央大部他們自己應該盡的責任不做然後卻把責任都推給你們一個委員會我真的是為你們感到不值啊所以醫療院所其實是一個特許行業那主管機關就應該負起監督的責任"},{"start":415.461,"end":420.144,"text":"如果說現在像負責這個產銷均衡制度的農業部都不負責了所有問題都去向你們檢舉那負責金融管理的金管會他也不管金融機構的行為了全部都回歸市場機制有問題都去向公平會檢舉啊NCC也不管傳媒啦"},{"start":435.955,"end":457.209,"text":"都去向公平會檢舉就好啦那以後我們中華民國的行政機關都可以裁撤掉留下公平會就好啦是不是不是這樣公平會處理的是影響市場競爭秩序的行為如果不是跟競爭秩序有關的行為那這個在各部會應該有它的另外的處理機制我是建議啊公平會你們應該要趕快提出抗議怎麼會衛福部這麼多預算這麼多人手的"},{"start":464.534,"end":465.215,"text":"好喔!那你就加油吧!謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"149629","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149629","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43002c704c8e4f6f25ce1cfe294bc3fbc1e0f8ba9b0039caa7a64afb211783feff0a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"09:50:59 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要解決的嘛營養的問題是你們要解決的嘛肥料恢復是你們要解決的嘛 對不對那所以假設今天運科中心可以直接介入到高中"},{"start":252.361,"end":277.542,"text":"你找一些有潛力的去做協助說不定就會有兩個三個成文會在同一個學校那這樣你同意嗎?是的那另外因為你也服務過新北市嘛你知道新北市包括像三峽明德高中的射箭那也是我們國手的培運搖籃體操明治國中的體操還有我們板橋華僑高中的排球都是非常棒的"},{"start":278.703,"end":299.895,"text":"如果運科中心可以去協助的話,你認為對於這些選手他未來的運動發展有沒有幫助?對於學校基層的這個訓練的這個支持我們體育所的學校組他就已經3年前就已經開始導入我現在就希望運科中心能用能量可以協助"},{"start":300.996,"end":318.813,"text":"如果運科中心沒有幫助我們不用成立運科中心的嘛現在就是說你現在另外弄了這個中心他如果說可以直接介入其實沒有違反到你們的發展目標因為你的目標就是希望能夠提讓這些國手在國外有好的表現那選才培育其實也是很相關嘛對吧"},{"start":319.494,"end":341.468,"text":"是的,跟委員報告在這個在這個前年年底那個運科條例通過的時候當時對於運科的任務其中就有一條他不是屬於國家級他是屬於選手的培訓所以他包含了國家代表隊也包含了基層訓練那至少我想請教一下如果就以我剛剛講的為例啦比如說海山高中舉重你們會怎麼做"},{"start":342.621,"end":363.856,"text":"海珊高中的體重的部分 因為你說那個條例就有規定那你會怎麼做?大概兩個啦第一個的部分剛剛我也提到就是我們學校體育署的學校體育組他就有在針對基層訓練導入運科那目前是有國體大的教授在做這件事情當然如果有這個需要的話我們會請體育署跟台體大就海珊高中所需要的運科"},{"start":364.116,"end":385.847,"text":"你現在運科如果說都已經做得好的話那不用成立運科中心啊我現在講的是說運科中心成立之後怎麼協助啦至於運科中心成立之後他會將運科包含他的研發或者是他的一些相關的一些技術的部分也會導入到基層訓練怎麼做嘛怎麼做嘛如果說你沒辦法回答請那個運科中心的執行長回答好不好"},{"start":386.294,"end":409.173,"text":"目前的規劃是我們可以結合地方的運科資源隊伍把我們的技術能量透過轉移的方式在地方來執行透過技術轉移是不是是的好那實際上的成效怎麼樣還沒剛開始而已還沒有開始對那你針對我剛講的那幾個學校你可不可以研究一下提一個報告給我當然可以好不好就是華僑高中的排球是好不好然後三峽明德射箭"},{"start":410.154,"end":421.962,"text":"還有我們海山高中舉仲明智國中的體操直接針對這幾個我們新北市的了解運科中心成立之後怎麼去協助他們好不好這個直接針對這幾個那報告什麼時候可以給我"},{"start":425.811,"end":429.833,"text":"第二個,這是我的建議,我跟一些運動員聊天。你們運科中心有在做選材嗎?就是建立資料庫做選材嗎?"},{"start":451.027,"end":451.147,"text":"是的。"},{"start":477.481,"end":496.727,"text":"其實很多運動員他在小的時候他是全才啦比如說他可能跆拳道很厲害他田徑也很強籃球也很強那這時候如果說我們有運科的介入可以告訴他說你比較適合往哪個方向發展其實對於他選擇運動項目是非常有幫助而且對於他未來在某一個領域啊"},{"start":498.148,"end":527.978,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":529.919,"end":530.52,"text":"吳佩奕委員鄭署長"}]}},{"id":"149628","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149628","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430044ed1c32eba60852ee83bb1dd0927c3df8ba9b0039caa7a67ec09d647ab4e3bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:48:24 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是不是你們的作為是不是如此因為今天的報紙寫了北部的265家我相信整個"},{"start":305.293,"end":305.553,"text":"我們也希望你們繼續督導之來"},{"start":326.371,"end":335.8,"text":"我們針對於NCC所公布的112年度通訊市場的調查結果看到2019年4億7349萬GBR提升到2023年是9億2882萬那換句話說他的增幅是倍增96%在這樣情況之下呢2023年的台灣網路調查報告更"},{"start":351.333,"end":375.253,"text":"顯示出台灣民眾上網使用率占最高牌比的第一名是什麼是影音娛樂是影音娛樂所以主委在這樣子的大型數位平臺使用網路賺錢但是他不需要任何的相關的建設成本那電信業者你除了評估的標金每年你要交交這個評率使用費負擔"},{"start":377.435,"end":377.515,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":407.695,"end":410.798,"text":"在3月6日的媒體報導在北部呢我們針對預售屋的部分他因為各個客戶持分的總表共同的面積皆是的內容是有誤的"},{"start":433.775,"end":451.28,"text":"但是業者在有無之餘他仍舊持續以錯誤的資訊來從事交易那如果是如此的話就會造成地震機關單位錯誤訊息的一個登載那使得購車的人、購車位的這個案件購車位的"},{"start":454.561,"end":475.573,"text":"購物人他的權利會有所受損那在這樣子會影響到守法重點在這裡守法的同業形成不公平的競爭會對於預售屋整個市場交易的秩序會有負評負面的一個一個效果所以呢你們三個業者公平會除以2200萬的這個罰金在這樣情況之下依據"},{"start":479.755,"end":495.185,"text":"我們公交法的規定25條交易秩序的欺騙以及以顯示公平性的情況之下本席要請教如果你的處分只有如此讓守法的人會影響到"},{"start":496.505,"end":520.217,"text":"讓這個不守法的人認為我只差反而你罰了這麼輕但是我所得會更高又會造成地震的一個麻煩你認為這個處罰會不會太輕了報告委員一方面是就是說政府用這個行政處罰另外這個業者對於個別的消費者也要負損害賠償責任所以這些消費者賠償這個損害多少"},{"start":523.619,"end":545.797,"text":"議員也要賠償所以他一方面是民事責任那我們自己處罰的是一個行政責任所以本席告訴你已經產生這樣的現象你要碰到一個他不負責任呢你沒有辦法去管他的民事啊所以你就你的本位你的職責你們可以再怎麼樣去讓不法者不可以再不法是這一部分"},{"start":546.838,"end":557.065,"text":"尤其是不動產的不實廣告或者是期望顯示公平行為向來都是公平會重中之重重中之重啊對啊但是還是一樣這樣做啊因為本席提出您有所處分就表示確實是有這個問題那有這個問題你們是不是應該可以再去研議本席的具體建議就是說我們希望讓不法者不要再不法"},{"start":570.955,"end":573.879,"text":"讓受罰者可以得到一個公平的對待,行政部門也不用這麼麻煩。"}]}},{"id":"149627","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149627","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430038b82aa36c28bd8743c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a699b491e425fd1a755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"09:49:25 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過那金門縣大概37%差不多這樣的投票率更低顯現出不在一起投票的重要性我們一直強調票票要"},{"start":224.144,"end":227.026,"text":"委員所顧慮的這些因素當然我們選務機關並不是沒有看到我們也看到了"},{"start":248.524,"end":248.864,"text":"主席主委"},{"start":279.986,"end":287.088,"text":"先把全國性公民投票這一步先跨出去我想如果實施的狀況良好的話以後的腳步就會比較快一點"},{"start":287.848,"end":309.782,"text":"市長你看如果我們有公平投票的話其實不會發生最近兩件重要的議題嘛一個就是因為2020年因為COVID-19的關係有一些藍衣人因為他怕被會有傳染的疑慮而禁止他投票這是第一個他不能出來投票那第二個就是我們在今年的總統及立法選舉我們有受刑人要求要投票因為受刑人他本身"},{"start":311.164,"end":323.848,"text":"雖然在服役：服刑：可是他還有具有投票資格嗎?因為這樣子造成的：你在國際報告也寫到他們也要求要投票這件事情嗎?是可以減少這樣的情況發生：因為他同樣也具有投票權嗎?對不對?我們拿兩個職業來比較齁那關於受刑人"},{"start":331.462,"end":331.942,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":351.527,"end":372.44,"text":"他事實上行使投票權有一定的困難這個我們也了解但是基本上就是說你必須要選制能夠配合就是選罷法兩個選罷法所沒有規定的事項不在即投票的部分你要建立一個法制但是這個法制不能夠憑空蓋起來他必須要有打好基礎"},{"start":373.641,"end":382.371,"text":"這個打好的基礎就是我們希望的就是從公民投票開始來實施能夠累積經驗然後徹底的來推廣"},{"start":384.981,"end":411.489,"text":"謝主委說明我認為我們天然地區、臺東的子弟還有在北漂各地的學子的權益我堅決的要推動不再去投票我想我們也相信我們這一次的質詢在網路上又被一些社會人士說我們又要幹嘛又要模糊要讓大陸可以投影響選舉投票不過我想這個事情我堅決會投是因為剝奪民眾的權利這個叫做無恥這個叫無恥"},{"start":414.17,"end":415.471,"text":"拜託委員能夠支持我們全國公投的不在籍投票這個案子能夠早一點通過謝謝委員"},{"start":444.085,"end":445.689,"text":"謝謝我們黃建賓委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"149626","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149626","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300650c3dbddc37189aaea18303c979697ef8ba9b0039caa7a6e63f43b907692b255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:45:29 - 09:56:19","影片長度":"00:10:50","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-5"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":650,"end_time":"2024-03-11T09:56:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T09:45:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":328,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時45分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長及官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士及先生。有請李秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長好。剛剛有委員發言提到是否為政治獻金案，你們提到的主要意見說，必須刑事程序告一段落後才會啟動行政罰，這是不是根據行政罰法第二十六條第一項、第二項的規定？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是根據行政罰法，好，我大概先確認一下。","今天本席想要關切監察院的立法計畫，最近我們在媒體上看到很多施暴的事件層出不窮，譬如說去年北監管理人坐視視同作業收容人，也就是另外的受刑人對受刑人施暴致傷，屏東發生警察痛毆嫌犯致死，在2019年，高雄監獄的虐囚案，管理員後來被判刑3年4個月定讞，最近也發生桃園分局三個警察涉嫌持電擊棒刑求17歲的少年。請問秘書長，負責行使公權力的執法者是不是涉嫌縱容發生凌虐，或是假藉公權力施暴，甚至到達凌虐、酷刑的程度，有沒有這種可能？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟鍾委員報告，這些案件非常多，幾乎每一個案件我們都有委員立案調查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是接近聯合國的禁止酷刑公約？"],["李秘書長俊俋：有個部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：算不算禁止酷刑公約當中所說的，不人道的、殘忍的、有辱人格的待遇或處罰？"],["李秘書長俊俋：屏東、桃園的案件是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，臺灣有沒有加入禁止酷刑公約？是簽約國嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：目前沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前沒有？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們有簽巴黎原則，沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有巴黎原則。目前臺灣對禁止酷刑公約的態度、人權委員的立場，您所知道的是怎麼樣？"],["李秘書長俊俋：依我們的瞭解，國家人權委員會希望行政院能夠儘速通過禁止酷刑公約的立法，國內……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，禁止酷刑公約，國內怎麼訂定施行法？由行政院訂定？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，監察院有沒有著墨的空間？我們來看一下。監察院對於我剛剛所說北監案件的調查意見說到什麼？針對去年北監收容人的案子，你們有說要加強預防措施，包括改善監視畫面涵蓋不足、嚴禁將器械予以收容人使用，還有督導人員必須不定時稽查、瞭解各場舍視同作業收容人的作業情況。是否還可以調整得更為完善呢？你認為還有沒有值得行政機關更為改善的部分？"],["李秘書長俊俋：每一個案子都有調整、改善的空間，我們會再注意這件事。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以關切人權、行使監察權、對行政機關要求也是貴院的職權？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請教一下一個歷史懸案，1981年有一個陳文成事件，陳文成事件就是他遭受警總祕密約談，約談也沒有拘票，請他出來聊一聊，他並非嫌疑犯，所以後來警總就不得再祕密約談。根據警察偵查犯罪手冊，查察可疑之人警察應遵守刑事訴訟法、警察職權行使法及警械使用條例，進行取締、盤查、檢查及搜索。我就教於秘書長的法律專業，怎麼定義、區分可疑之人跟嫌疑犯呢？陳文成是不是嫌疑犯？"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟委員報告，陳文成案我們調查過兩次，監察院歷屆以來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他是不是嫌疑犯？"],["李秘書長俊俋：他不是嫌疑犯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我只要答案就夠了，後面我會再提。在他的情況之下，連不是嫌疑犯的人……"],["李秘書長俊俋：不過我提醒鍾委員，這個是在1981年發生的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解。"],["李秘書長俊俋：當時的時空環境背景……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，所以……"],["李秘書長俊俋：當時還有戒嚴法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：基於人權委員會對於落實人權的執掌，對於凌虐、酷刑的事前預防跟事後懲處，你覺得哪個要優先進行？"],["李秘書長俊俋：都很重要，站在人權會的角度，我們希望強調事前預防。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，事前預防。懲處有法規嗎？法規上有預防的部分，我們看一下中華民國刑法第一百二十六條，有管收、解送或拘禁人犯職務之公務員，對於人犯施以凌虐者，就類似酷刑，處有期徒刑，刑法要懲處，那你認為目前的法規，就你的法律見解，刑法第一百二十六條在預防上是否完善？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我對這個不適合表示意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你認為這裡面的人犯包不包括嫌疑犯？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我不太懂……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是拘禁人犯啊！因為它禁止嘛，如果是嫌疑犯，我們就禁止對於拘禁人犯或解送的時候不得凌虐，所以人犯的規定是不是嫌疑犯？"],["李秘書長俊俋：鍾委員，我們跟您報告，有關法規的討論，刑法第一百二十六條並不在我們監察院的討論範圍之內。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，我只是就教你的法律意見。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我不是法律人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，其實我們在這裡又遇到一個陳文成案連人犯可能都稱不上，因為他也不是嫌疑犯，所以其實酷刑公約在目前刑法上的規定顯有不足啊！目前人權委員會要督導各級機關落實人權，我們看到政府機關目前在人權上的未盡事宜，人權委員會會督導各行政機關落實人權，是不是這樣？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那你覺得目前人權委員會能夠有效行使職權嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們還是希望我們的職權行使相關規定能夠儘快通過。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，這就是我關切的。目前人權委員會職權行使法，立法院通過三個法案，第一、那時候在你剛說到的……"],["李秘書長俊俋：2020年，2019年通過人權委員會組織法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們就設了國家人權委員會。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：包括了國家人權委員會組織法，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：監察院的組織法也修正了，對不對？包括你們監察院各委員會組織法的部分條文也修正通過了，那今年113年你們的立法計畫打算修監察法，在其中提出一個人權專章，請問這個人權專章跟人權委員會行使法，要怎麼去區隔？"],["李秘書長俊俋：鍾委員，我跟你報告兩件事情，第一、職權行使我們透過監察法的專章來行使，這個部分在上一屆第10屆的立法委員……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，是不是有專章就不需要再有一個人權委員會職權行使法？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果有人權委員會行使法，可能就不需要監察法的專章？"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有，我跟委員報告，職權行使法的部分，其實連我們的委員也有很多不同的意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我要跟各位強調的是，獨立的人權機關不一定要設有作用法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：瞭解，但是如果沒有作用法，你們監察法也要有專章，才足以讓人權委員會發生作用。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，我們希望更完整。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果有行使法，也是可以讓人權委員會落實其職權，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，但是現在……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不一定要為前提啦！有專章也可以，所以專章是你們要提，如果是職權行使法的話，我們立法院也可以提。"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個就是我跟委員報告的，立法院當初通過人權委員會組織法的時候做了一個附帶決議，這個附帶決議要求我們以監察法的形式送來。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解，所以我要釐清這一點。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：今天你來報告立法計畫是就監察法的部分的人權專章。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：大家可能會關心人權委員會是不是要有一個行使法，行使法可能立法院也可以提出，但是畢竟跨屆不連續，上一屆立法院的意見跟本屆立法委員可能不一樣，是不是這樣？有可能啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：立法的意見都尊重大院的決定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，除了法規和空間場所的設置完備，是不是用這些方式，如果說要禁止酷刑公約，如果沒有施行法，完善現行法規有沒有可能達到事前預防的效果？譬如有些密閉空間要有監視器，就像你們的要求，可以有效的、相當程度的做到事前防範，你覺得這樣有沒有符合禁止酷刑公約的目的？"],["李秘書長俊俋：儘量的完善現行法規，另外我們相關的配置有沒有完整，包括我們的人員足不足夠，都是相關的條件。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以其實從我們剛剛的討論當中，我有得出一個可能的方向就教於秘書長，就是目前人權委員會的立場是希望行政院能夠支持部分禁止酷刑公約相關的施行法規，行政院要不要因此去擬施行法，那是行政院提出，立法院也可以有看法，但是目前既然監察院已經有人權委員會了，你們也打算訂定人權專章了，不管它叫行使法還是人權專章，是由你們定還是由立法院這邊來提出？但是如果人權委員會有一個專章或行使法，是不是可以有效地去監督、要求各行政機關去完善現在包括收容人犯、警察傳喚、羈押或者押送相關的規定，使得酷刑的情況不至於發生，你覺得有沒有幫助？"],["李秘書長俊俋：分兩個部分說明，第一個部分，監察院的職責是監督，特別是國家人權委員會是監督，至於執行的部分，我的理解是行政院近期之內就會提出酷刑公約的相關法案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解，就是監督行政院去執行，人權委員會如果有個專章或行使法，更可以要求、監督行政院有沒有使相關的配套完善，是不是這樣？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們第一個主張就是人權會要督導各級行政機關落實人權，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那麼我們就希望它重在事前的預防，而不是只有事後的懲處，你同意嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我同意，這個見解我跟鍾委員是一樣的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我希望監察院能夠儘早提出，你們的說法叫做人權委員會的專章，以利人權委員會來督導各級行政機關，能夠在相應的配套上，不一定要立法，在相關的行政法規上就能夠對於包括人犯或廣義的可能遭受國家酷刑的這些人，落實保障他的人權，你願不願意來支持？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，所以我剛剛跟委員報告，我們希望在這個會期前提出來。"],["鍾委員佳濱：專章？"],["李秘書長俊俋：專章。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，也不乏可能立法院提出了行使法，你們也接受吧？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們接受立法院的任何決議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝！本席對於你這樣的答復很滿意，謝謝。"],["李秘書長俊俋：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的質詢。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：接下來請羅委員智強發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","陳俊宇","羅智強","傅崐萁","林思銘","吳宗憲","謝龍介","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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酷刑公約的國內那怎麼去訂立施行法 有行政院訂囉是好 那麼監察院有沒有琢磨的空間呢 我們來看一下監察院對於北監剛剛有說的案件的調查意見說到什麼"},{"start":147.345,"end":168.36,"text":"說到說就對於去年北京收容人那個案子呢﹖你們有說﹖要加強預防措施﹖包括監視畫面還不足要改善﹖嚴禁將器械與收容人使用﹖還有督導人員必須不定期的去稽查瞭解﹖這個各場設的適同作業收容人的作業情況﹖是否還有可以調整更為完善呢﹖你認為還有沒有值得行政機關更為改善的部分"},{"start":169.458,"end":193.301,"text":"每一個案子都有調整改善的空間那我們會再注意這件事所以關切人權行使監察權對行政機關做要求也是貴院的一個職權是好那麼請教一下一個歷史懸案1981年有一個陳文辰事件那麼這個陳文辰事件就是遭警總秘密約談約談就是也沒有拘票請他出來聊一聊他非嫌疑犯"},{"start":193.982,"end":218.167,"text":"那所以呢後來呢這個警總就不得在秘密約談了那根據警察偵查犯罪手冊他說查查可疑之人警察呢應遵守刑事訴訟法警察職權刑事法及警協使用條例去進行取締盤查檢查及搜索請問一下就教於秘書長你的法律專業怎麼去定義區分可疑之人跟嫌疑犯呢"},{"start":219.86,"end":230.368,"text":"陳文辰是不是嫌疑犯跟委員報告陳文辰案我們調查過兩次監察院歷屆以來他不是嫌疑犯所以他的情況之下後面我會再提連不是嫌疑犯的人不過我提醒鍾委員這個是在1981年發生的當時的時空環境背景"},{"start":244.657,"end":260.146,"text":"那麼你能不能認為基於人權委員會對於弱權人質的執掌我們對於凌虐或酷刑事前預防跟事後懲處你覺得哪個要優先進行都很重要人權會的角度我們是希望強調在事前預防"},{"start":260.566,"end":283.147,"text":"之前預防好那麼懲處有法規法規上有預防的部分是否完善我們看一下中華民國刑法第126條有管收解送拘禁人犯植物之公園對於人犯施以凌虐者就類似酷刑處有期徒刑刑法要受懲處那你認為目前的這個法規就你的法律見解刑法126條的預防上是否完善"},{"start":284.774,"end":285.094,"text":"我對這個不適合表示意見"},{"start":305.269,"end":328.997,"text":"所以人犯的規定是不是嫌疑犯中委員我們跟您報告有關法規的討論這個刑法126條並沒有在我們監察院的討論範圍可以啦我只是救救你的法律意見啦我不是法律人其實我們在這裡又遇到一個陳文成案他連人犯可能都稱不上因為他也不是嫌疑犯所以其實酷刑公約在目前刑法上的規定顯有不足"},{"start":329.617,"end":330.537,"text":"人權委員會．各級機關若實人權．能有效行使職權嗎?"},{"start":344.074,"end":353.399,"text":"我們還是希望我們的職權行使的相關規定能夠盡快通過是的這就是我關切的那目前人權委員的行使法立法院通過三法案第一那時候在2019年通過人權委員會組織法那你們就設了國家人權委員會那你包括了組織法國家人權委員會的組織法對不對監察院的組織法也修正了對不對"},{"start":369.167,"end":384.907,"text":"那包括你們的各監察院的各委員會的組織法的部分條文修正草案也通過了嘛好 那你們113年今年的立法計畫你們打算修監察法當中提出一個人權專章請問這個人權專章跟人權委員的刑事法你們覺得怎麼去區隔它"},{"start":386.618,"end":409.915,"text":"這個中委員我跟你報告兩件事情第一個就是職權行使我們透過監察法的專章來行使那這個部分在上一屆第10屆的立法委員會那是不是這樣的話有專章就不需要再有一個人權委員會的行使法那如果有人權委員會的行使法可能就不需要監察法的專章我跟委員報告職權行使法的部分其實連我們的委員也有很多不同的意見"},{"start":411.915,"end":431.586,"text":"我要跟各位講的是人權機關獨立的人權機關不一定要設有作用法才成為必要的要件但是如果沒有作用法你們監察法也要有專章才足以讓人權委員會發生作用對我們希望更完整那如果有行使法也是可以讓人權委員會落實他的職權"},{"start":432.844,"end":437.166,"text":"這就是我跟委員報告的立法院當初通過人權委員會組織法的時候做了一個附帶決議這個附帶決議要求我們以監察法的形式說明我了解所以我要釐清這一點今天你來報告立法計畫是就監察法的部分的人權專章"},{"start":458.114,"end":458.334,"text":"法規和空間的設置完備"},{"start":474.861,"end":494.077,"text":"是不是用這些方式如果說要禁止酷刑公約如果沒有施刑法我們完善現行法規有沒有可能達到事前預防的效果比如說有些密閉的空調監視器就像你們的要求報告有可以有效的相當程度的達到事前防範你覺得這樣有沒有符合禁止酷刑公約的目的"},{"start":495.779,"end":496.499,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":516.238,"end":531.2,"text":"我們希望人權委員會立場希望行政院能夠去支持這個禁止酷刑公約當中相關的施行的部分的法規那這個法規呢行政院可能要不要去弄一個施行法那是行政院提出立法院也可以有看法"},{"start":531.701,"end":555.669,"text":"但是目前既然監察院已經有個人權委員會了你沒打算訂定人權專章了不管他是要行使法還是要人權專章是由你們訂還是由立法院這邊來提出但是如果人權委員會有一個專章或行使法他是不是可以有效的去監督要求各行政機關去完善他們現在包括收容人犯包括警察傳喚羈押或者押送相關的規定"},{"start":561.871,"end":578.139,"text":"指責庫型的情況不適於發生你覺得有沒有幫助兩個部分第一個部分監察院的職責是監督阿特別是國家人權委員會是監督那至於執行的部分我的理解是行政院近期之內就會提出庫型公約的相關法案"},{"start":578.979,"end":603.949,"text":"監督行政院去執行行政院的人權委員會如果有一個專章或刑事法他更可以要求去監督行政院有沒有在相關的配套完善所以說如果我們第一個主張就是人權會要督導各級行政機關落實人權對不對那麼我們希望要注重在事前的預防而不是只有事後的懲處你同意嗎我同意這個天姐我跟中委員是一樣的"},{"start":604.269,"end":627.989,"text":"那希望我希望監察院能夠盡早提出你們的說法叫做人權委員會的專章那以立人權委員會來督導各級行政機關能夠在相關的配套上不一定要立法在相關的行政法規上就能夠落實對於包括這個所謂的人犯或者說廣義的可能遭受國家酷刑的這些對待人能夠落實保障他的人權你願不願意來支持"},{"start":629.79,"end":630.791,"text":"立法院提出刑事法．"}]}},{"id":"149625","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149625","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300c4d5e39d98e56ff8aea18303c979697ef8ba9b0039caa7a6b68fd153a217bd045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:33:51 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09:45:11","影片長度":"00:11:20","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-5"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":680,"end_time":"2024-03-11T09:45:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T09:33:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":293,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時34分）謝謝主席，請秘書長。"],["主席：請李秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：陳委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：謝謝秘書長以及所有列席的各部會首長。首先，針對監察院的部分，我想請教秘書長，宜蘭特教有一個體罰案，這部分是在本席選區宜蘭縣發生的一個特教體罰案，是某公立附幼的學前特教班，當時的教師是經由三招所招聘進來學校擔任老師，並沒有特教或幼教的專業。我們也得知在這一班的特教幼童遭到老師強迫餵飯、束帶束縛，以及強迫拉筋、過度的體能訓練等等脫序行為，甚至還有虐打行為，也有特教助理老師從旁側錄的影片作為佐證。整個過程縣政府經過調查之後，判定是非屬情節重大，僅判這個老師停聘1年、罰款6萬，後來雖然有改為情節重大，可是仍然是以最低的罰則來懲罰，當事人在1年之後就可以繼續當老師，這個也是許多家長所擔心的。","針對這個案子，我們除了必須要釐清案情之外，在制度上也要檢討是否缺乏合格的師源，才會影響學童的受教權，也讓所有家長無法放心的讓小孩子去學校就讀。在整個過程裡面，我們也看到判決的結果或許不是讓所有的家長都非常滿意，我想就教秘書長，對於這個案情的瞭解情況，還有在你認知上這個案情應該會怎麼樣？"],["李秘書長俊俋：謝謝陳委員，跟陳委員報告，監察院對於特教或幼教的部分有很多的調查案，但是我的印象中沒有宜蘭這一件，所以我的瞭解是我們回去以後跟委員討論看看這個部分有沒有需要立案，再來跟陳委員做比較詳細的報告。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，沒關係，上個禮拜五監察院的葉大華委員認為這個案子涉及身心障礙兒童受虐情況，以及就學的安全相關議題，葉委員為了釐清整個事情的處理是否有缺失，已經主動申請要自動調查，我也希望對於這個案子的關心，雖然剛剛秘書長答復的情況是這個案情還沒有掌握到，委員已經開始在調查。"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟陳委員報告，剛剛處長提供我一個資料，這個案子是3月8日葉大華委員申請自動調查，目前這份文我還沒有看到，所以我們會跟葉大華委員再做討論。"],["陳委員俊宇：我要拜託秘書長持續關心，既然委員已經介入調查，我也希望整個調查結果能夠儘早公布出來，讓所有的……"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個要看委員調查的狀況，我們都尊重委員的行使。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝秘書長。在兒童權利公約裡面也有明定要保護兒童不受到任何形式的身心靈暴力情況，甚至是傷害、虐待，人權會所公布的中程策略計畫中也載明要檢討校園老師對於學生的暴力處理機制，釐清發生原因，提出政策建議，來降低暴力的發生，所以我也希望監察院對這個案子應該要有更多的關心，讓整個案子除了能夠儘早釐清以外，也能夠讓老師和學生的關係有一個更明確的分界。"],["李秘書長俊俋：謝謝陳委員，我跟陳委員很快的兩個回應，第一個部分，有關這一案現在如果葉大華委員已經自動調查了，我們會尊重葉大華委員的職權。第二個部分是有關師對生的霸凌，監察院人權委員會其實有一個專案研究報告，所以我們有針對這件事情認真的調查，瞭解整個國家的狀況，這個部分在調查報告完成以後會公告。"],["陳委員俊宇：謝謝秘書長。接續我想請教的是人民的書狀案件，監察法第四條規定，監察院及監察委員得收受人民書狀，人民如果發現公務員有違法失職的行為，舉證後就能夠向監察院或監察委員舉發。我們從最近監察院公告的統計數據來看，人民書狀的案件性質明顯集中在司法及內政兩類，尤其又以司法為最大宗，占比將近四成，司法及獄政的案件所占的比例近幾屆逐步上升當中，是否可以判斷民怨可能集中在司法，或是民眾特別關心司法的議題？我想就教秘書長，對於這個數據的解讀為何？"],["李秘書長俊俋：兩個部分，第一個部分就是司法跟獄政，是不是民眾有覺得受到不公平的對待？這是民眾的感受問題，可能這個部分比較強烈。第二個部分，現在唯一可以制裁司法單位的就是監察院，所以大家都跑到監察院陳情、檢舉。"],["陳委員俊宇：會不會變成民眾對基層的司法不信任？"],["李秘書長俊俋：當然民眾不信任是一個因素。第二個就是民眾本來的心情就是我的案件被判輸，當然會心情不滿，所以也有可能因為這樣提出檢舉案，但是我們還是會由委員判斷這個到底要不要立案調查。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我怕到時候會不會導致監察院的相關案件量越來越多，反而變相導致監察院的整個工作量無形中增加。"],["李秘書長俊俋：其實監察院現在案件已經非常多，而且我們的工作量已經很重了。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，請監察院對這個部分做比較好的檢討，讓地方的司法單位該受理的案件就直接在地方，看能不能直接做比較妥善的處理。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們回去研究監察院可以做什麼樣的改善。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。另外再請教秘書長死刑存廢的相關議題，如果談到民眾最關心的司法議題，死刑存廢一直是臺灣民眾討論的一個非常重要的議題，到底廢除死刑是否合適？人權會也把它條列為重點目標之一，在中程策略計畫當中也寫到要逐步廢除死刑，建立人權會有關死刑議題的論述，提升民眾對廢除死刑的支持度。過去國發會做出民調，有八成八的民眾反對廢除死刑，最近媒體的民調也有七成以上反對。請教秘書長，面對民意強烈反彈，人權會應該如何推動廢除死刑的案子？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟陳委員報告，目前司法院有定一個日期，是4月23號，在憲法法庭裡面會討論到這個議題，我們監察院國家人權委員會被司法院命為鑑定機關，所以我們會提供我們的鑑定意見，至於鑑定意見，現在人權會裡面有一個工作小組討論細節，目前還在研議當中。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，到底我們會不會廢除死刑還沒有很明確吧？還在討論當中？"],["李秘書長俊俋：以國家人權委員會的立場來講，我們很難反對，我們會以廢除死刑為目標，這個人權會都公開講過，而且我們是巴黎原則的簽約國，所以我們都以這個目標努力，這個是中程……"],["陳委員俊宇：會以廢除死刑為目標？"],["李秘書長俊俋：以支持國家廢除死刑為目標，這是人權會一向的立場。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，死刑的議題需要跟社會大量溝通，因為說實在的，這個意見可能相左，也很明確，可能地方、社會上的意見分歧，所以我希望監察院在推動這個議題的過程裡面，應該要多聽取地方的意見。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟陳委員報告，社會現在整個的認知跟我們人權委員會的認知可能有很大的差距，這個我們也理解，所以在監察院它是一個中程目標，我們希望透過跟被害者家屬溝通，透過跟更多NGO團體溝通，讓整個社會氛圍漸漸形成一個共識。但是現在在社會還沒有共識之前，監察院的國家人權委員會只會表達我們的意見，至於要不要死刑、要不要怎麼樣，那個不是我們監察院的職權。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，因為我們4月份馬上就要迎來憲法法庭對死刑違憲案的辯論，所以我也希望監察院對此事的立場為何，到時候應該要有一個明確的說法。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們會很清楚地表達我們的立場。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝秘書長跟所有的同仁。"],["李秘書長俊俋：謝謝陳委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳委員，謝謝李秘書長。"],["主席（陳委員俊宇代）：好，下一位請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","陳俊宇","羅智強","傅崐萁","林思銘","吳宗憲","謝龍介","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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釐清發生的原因提出政策的這個建議來降低暴力的這種發生所以我也希望說我們監察院對這個案子應該是要這個"},{"start":292.079,"end":320.337,"text":"更多的關心讓整個案子除了能夠盡早清楚以外也能夠讓老師跟學生的關係應該要有一個更明確的分界好 謝謝陳委員我跟陳委員很快的兩個回應第一個部分是有關這一案現在如果業大法委員已經自動調查了我們會尊重業大法委員的職權那第二個部分是有關師對生的霸凌監察院我們人權委員會其實有一個專案研究報告"},{"start":322.174,"end":345.397,"text":"所以我們有針對這件事情認真的調查那瞭解他的整個國家的狀況那所以我們這個部分在調查報告完成以後我們會公告好 謝謝秘書長那接續我想請教就是人民的這種書狀案件那我們從監察院第4條這個規定裡面監察院及監察委員得收受人民的這種書狀"},{"start":346.909,"end":376.036,"text":"那人民如果發現公務員有違法施指的行為舉證後就能夠向監察院或監察委員來舉發那我們從最近的監察院公告的統計數據看來在人民書狀的案件性質當中明顯集中在這個司法局內政兩類尤其又以這個司法為最大宗占比將近4成那司法"},{"start":376.776,"end":392.354,"text":"及預證的案件所佔的比例近兩幾屆是逐步的在上升當中是否可以判斷這個民怨可能集中在司法或是民眾特別關心司法的議題我想就叫秘書長對這個數據的解讀為何"},{"start":395.863,"end":399.624,"text":"會不會變相就是變成民眾對於基層的司法這種不信任"},{"start":422.037,"end":436.974,"text":"這個當然民眾的不信任是一個因素第二個就是民眾本來的心情就是我如果被判書這個我的案件書我當然會有心情不滿所以也有可能因為這樣提出檢舉案但是我們還是會由委員來判斷這個到底要不要立案調查"},{"start":440.638,"end":442.239,"text":"其實監察院現在案件已經非常多而且我們的工作量已經很重了"},{"start":457.632,"end":458.853,"text":"我們回去研究監察院可以做什麼樣的改善"},{"start":475.532,"end":496.772,"text":"那我想另外再請教我們秘書長就是針對這個死刑存廢的相關議題的問題如果談到民眾最關心的這個司法議題這個死刑的存廢一直是台灣民眾討論的一個非常重要的議題那到底廢除死刑是否合適在人權會我們"},{"start":499.334,"end":515.765,"text":"也把條例為是重點的目標之一那在忠誠策略的計畫當中也寫到就是要推動逐步廢除死刑建立人權會有關死刑議題的這個論述來提升民眾廢除死刑的這個支持度"},{"start":516.405,"end":536.591,"text":"那我們不管說從過去國發會所做出有8成8的民眾是反對廢除死刑或是最近媒體的民調也有7成以上是反對那我想請教秘書長就是面對這個民意強烈的反彈人權會應該要如何來推動這個廢除死刑的這個案子"},{"start":537.391,"end":564.359,"text":"我跟陳委員報告目前司法院他有定一個日期叫做4月23號他在憲法法庭裡面會討論到這個議題憲法法庭裡面會討論到這個議題那我們監察院國家人權委員會被司法院命為我們是鑒定機關所以我們會提供我們的鑒定意見那至於鑒定意見我們現在由人權會的委員裡面我們有一個工作小組跟細節討論目前還在研議當中"},{"start":567.95,"end":593.404,"text":"那所以到底我們會不會廢除死刑的部分也還沒有很明確吧還在討論當中以國家人權委員會的立場來講我們很難反對我們會以廢除死刑為目標這個人權會公開都講過而且我們是巴黎原則的簽約國所以我們都以這個目標來努力會以廢除死刑為目標"},{"start":594.963,"end":615.754,"text":"支持國家與被處死刑為目標,這是人權會一向的立場。好,那這個我們死刑議題需要跟社會來做一個大量的溝通,因為說實在這個意見可能相左,那也很明確可能這個地方社會上的意見這個分歧,所以我也希望說監察院在對於這個議題的推動的過程裡面,"},{"start":618.415,"end":636.048,"text":"應該是要多多的聽取地方的意見我跟陳委員報告這個社會現在的整個的認知跟我們人權委員會的認知可能有很大的差距這個我們也理解所以我們監察院他是一個忠誠目標就是我們希望透過跟家屬的溝通透過跟被害者家屬的溝通"},{"start":636.849,"end":658.015,"text":"通過更多跟所謂的NGO團體的溝通那對這個事情對整個社會氛圍來形成漸漸形成一個共識但是現在在這個社會還沒有共識之前我們監察院的國家人權委員會只會表達我們的意見那其他至於要不要實行要不要怎麼樣那個不是我們監察院的職權"},{"start":658.755,"end":675.999,"text":"好那因為我們4月份馬上就要迎來這個憲法的法庭對死刑違憲案的這個辯論所以我也希望說我們監察院對於此事的立場為何到時候應該要有一個明確的說法我們會很清楚的表達我們的立場好那就謝謝秘書長跟所有的同仁謝謝陳委員謝謝陳委員謝謝李秘書長"}]}},{"id":"149624","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149624","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430005322d081cd68c1daea18303c979697ef8ba9b0039caa7a66e357ca2c70d75735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:21:39 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謝謝沈惠文我也認為這樣我就是今天就是以監察院秘書長的身份來"},{"start":164.676,"end":173.541,"text":"接下來齁這個我想我請問剛剛有提到這個監察法有提到這個監察法的這個修正齁"},{"start":175.841,"end":203.019,"text":"這個秘書長你有提到說你們這個會期這個會期內會再送一次再送立法院我們希望這個會期內能把國家人權行使的專章在監察法裡面的專章送到立法院來這個是上一屆有送但是沒有通過上一屆其實在本委員會已經審查完畢了都審查完畢了對 已經審查完畢了審查完畢最後草野協商沒有草野協商所以就沒有對 相關問題所以他這個戒期不連續對 是這個狀況嘛"},{"start":205.3,"end":219.778,"text":"那因此我們這次再送,如果我們在這個會期內再送,你們是會按照上一屆所送的草案再送一次,還是你們會參酌上一屆審查完均之後所調整的這個條文來送?"},{"start":222.381,"end":251.576,"text":"我跟沈委員報告因為上一屆送來在司法委員審查的時候我們的立法委員們有很多的意見那我們這一次送來的案子當然是已經參酌立法委員的審查意見我們會做若干的調整基本上會做調整跟上一屆的這個但是我們還是要完成他的程序就是必須我們整個討論以後然後送到我們院會院會通過以後我們才會送到立法院來所以我希望會在這個會期以前送進來這個部分我想你們"},{"start":252.197,"end":253.79,"text":"理論上應該因為上一屆在審整個審查"},{"start":255.441,"end":281.669,"text":"完均之後的條文事實上做了很多的跟你們原本送來的草案做了很多的調整上次有保留三條那這個部分我們會做討論然後或者做一部分的修正然後再送進來我希望的就是這樣不要說上一屆送的條文這一屆又送進來同樣的這個上一屆大家有意見保留的條文你再原封不動的送進來我們已經開始進行討論程序了"},{"start":284.09,"end":298.297,"text":"那這裡面齁我特別特別齁就是要在這裡除了這個監察法以外齁我們目前這個監察院國家人權委員會的組織法齁裡面有關這個第二條第一款齁這個有關這個"},{"start":302.469,"end":318.98,"text":"這個我們國家人權委員會目前對於人權委員會對涉及酷刑侵害人權或構成各種形式歧視的事件進行調查並依法處理或救濟這是目前的這個國家人權委員會組織法第二條第一款"},{"start":320.165,"end":347.6,"text":"那這個部分呢我特別特別要這個跟李秘書長來討論一下就是第一個就是說所謂涉及酷刑這個酷刑這兩個字齁在目前法律上面他有其他的定義嗎什麼樣叫做酷刑我的了解是沒有明確的定義但是這個我們有巴黎原則底下的所謂的酷刑公約裡面有一定的方向跟指引所以我們現在是按照什麼你剛剛講酷刑公約"},{"start":348.14,"end":348.18,"text":"另外這個﹖"},{"start":376.545,"end":393.245,"text":"我們在這一條裡面規定最後就是說依法處理或救濟齁這個會不會有點空我目前的做法是怎麼樣處理或救濟做什麼樣處理或救濟這個部分我是不是請人權會的副執行秘書跟您打破好可以請副執行秘書"},{"start":395.134,"end":415.185,"text":"委員好有關於我們在組織法的第二條的第一款提到的對於酷刑或是侵害人權或是歧視的部分我們來依法處理跟救濟那這部分我目前我們是會接受相關的依照職權或陳情的調查我們會來做處理處理我現在就要問說這個所謂處理是你們現在目前是怎麼處理"},{"start":416.234,"end":444.749,"text":"我們的處理我們就是會如果要調查的話我們要經過不是調查處理按照這一條最後的結果並依法處理及救濟這個處理及救濟目前是做什麼樣的處理我們的調查我們在相關的結果如果我們可能會函詢給相關的陳情人把相關的我們調查的結果告知然後我們也會把調查的結果函給相關的行政機關涉及相關行政機關來做處理處理我們所以我們就一個文區就對了"},{"start":446.36,"end":463.988,"text":"我跟委員報告這更完整一點如果經過人權委員會的調查認為有些部分需要處理涉及這個機關違法或失職會送到監察院來那如果有其他的部分行政上的部分我們會送給這個時間的關係時間的關係這個部分我認為現在目前條文所謂的處理跟救濟事實上跟沒有處理是一樣的意思這個我們未來這個部分要做一些明確化這個法條會空洞化"},{"start":474.585,"end":474.765,"text":"沈發惠議員"},{"start":493.342,"end":520.191,"text":"再來我跟您討論一個問題目前大家對於資安的部分有很多的討論我們行政院在前年的8月31號通過一個行政機關使用生成式AI的參考指引制定一個行政指導原則參考指引這個部分"},{"start":521.546,"end":529.465,"text":"這個部分齁這個因為我們在這個我們自己齁我們在這個監察院裡面我們也有提到說有關的這個這個"},{"start":532.294,"end":556.671,"text":"這個公營事業公益學校行政法人使用AI用這個參考指引來那目前我們這個這個監我們的監察的業務監委的巡迴工作目前有沒有把這樣子使用AI這個各機關他有沒有依照這樣子生成式AI的參考指引有沒有依據這個這個指引來執行有沒有納入我們目前的這個這個巡查工作好"},{"start":557.351,"end":576.491,"text":"這個部分我分3個部分跟沈委員回應第一個部分有關AI的生成其實我們委員也有在自動調查當中這是第一個第二個就是這些指引下來各機關有沒有執行或是會有什麼樣相關的意見我們在去年年底的行政院巡查的時候我們有跟行政院在提出這個問題第三個部分"},{"start":580.074,"end":594.334,"text":"第三個部分是有關AI這個對生成式AI的部分我們國家人權委員會裡面有做專案的討論我看到你們國家人權委員會的這個裝成策略計畫裡面也有提到有特別提到但是我剛剛的問題是說"},{"start":595.996,"end":604.384,"text":"你們目前這個監察業務尤其是監委的這些巡查工作有沒有把AI的這個行政機關有沒有按照AI相聲指引來執行就是我們在去年的這個行政院的巡查裡面我們有特別跟行政院提醒這件事情那今年的巡查裡面"},{"start":616.937,"end":640.973,"text":"我現在提的不是說跟行政院提醒而是說跟各個機關你在巡查各個機關的時候你有沒有瞭解這些機關它到底有沒有按照這個執意我們明年中央巡查的時候就會把這個列為項目之一我時間關係我本來還有一個問題要跟你請教那我再請林立法院帶回去你們監察院可以來做個檢討就是我們事實上這個監察院它是一個獨立的單位"},{"start":644.656,"end":670.884,"text":"他事實上在我們的資通安全的這些部分他可以擔任一個獨立的集合單位這個部分我們在行政院遵循資安等級的法尊事項就有提到國家應該要有一個就資通安全的獨立的集合單位我個人是認為監察院事實上是適合扮演這個角色的這部分請秘書長回去研究好不好"},{"start":672.093,"end":672.394,"text":"謝謝沈委員 謝謝李秘書長"}]}},{"id":"149623","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149623","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43000c5e06d25fd3b9eeaf4279b9ad9aebfdf8ba9b0039caa7a6f6c8e88a0e872c475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:40:30 - 09:54:54","影片長度":"00:14:24","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-4"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":864,"end_time":"2024-03-11T09:54:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T09:40:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":120,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（9時40分）謝謝主席。我們有請蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。徐委員好！"],["徐委員巧芯：局長好！我印象中，2024年的選舉有傳出不少的影片和錄音檔，當時大家都不斷地在問，到底是Deepfake（深偽），還是被駭客入侵了？我今天就想要請問，關於後續的調查結果，我們所掌握的有相關於國安的情報部分是怎麼樣的。","首先我們先看一下，第1位是鄭文燦副院長，去年10月的時候在司法及法制委員會，那時候國安局也在，就有委員提供相關所有的影片給調查局及國安局去瞭解是否為變造，但是到現在都還沒有一個結果，我想要請問一下國安局，我們有沒有去瞭解外流影片者的來源以及他的動機？涉及國安情報的部分有沒有掌握其他類似的影片在外流傳？"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員提到這個問題，這個案子因為引起社會非常高度的關注，所以在發生之後我們也有稍微瞭解一下相關的狀況，不過這個案子的調查因為已經移送到司法警察機關，特別是檢調已經立案在偵辦當中，所以目前的調查進度我不便說明，但是對於委員在關注的，有沒有從國安的角度來看到他相關訊息散播的管道及來源，這個我們有去瞭解……"],["徐委員巧芯：是，請問。"],["蔡局長明彥：這個部分我們所瞭解到的是當時那個IP的位址是位在中國大陸的上海，由這個IP的位址來進行這種源頭的散布，這個部分我們倒是有掌握，所以相關資訊也有提供給檢調單位參考。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以您的意思是這個鄭文燦副院長的影片是真的是假的目前在司法檢調進行調查……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，是。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是我們從國安情報上來說，它的來源是從中國大陸的上海在做散播。那請問您認為這個影片在外流傳是否有涉及所謂的境外介選的問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這也是我們關切的重點，我們認為在大選的期間有這些影片出來，不管他影片的真偽，就他散布的時間點以及他特別鎖定希望透過這個影片打擊的對象來講，我們不能夠排除有中國希望介選的動作在裡面。"],["徐委員巧芯：那您認為在國安方面的資訊，我們的情報調查，除了目前所揭露的相關影片以外，就是有在媒體上面所揭露的影片以外，國安單位是否有掌握其他的情資是關於鄭文燦副院長其餘的影片在外流傳的部分，我們有沒有去做相對應的國安處理？"],["蔡局長明彥：目前還沒有看到其他的影片在網路上散布，假如有的話，以我們相關的技術和系統，都可以在第一時間來掌握。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。第2個部分問到的是我們過去在外交及國防委員會的委員也是召委羅致政，比較嚴重的我覺得倒不是影片的問題，而是立委們都有質疑國安有沒有去調查蔡總統被錄音的問題，那請問在於蔡總統是否有被錄音這件事情，國安局就我們的國安情資所蒐集的瞭解情況是如何呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：也是跟委員報告一下，這個案子在第一時間就移送到調查局來處理，所以相關影片或錄音檔真偽的辨識，我們認為還是要由司法警察機關來做裁判比較正確。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我們在司法檢調出來結果之前，國安局不啟動對於是否蔡總統錄音有國安其他機密外流問題的調查嗎？還是我們有同步進行？"],["蔡局長明彥：假如檢調方面有來文希望我們國安局提供相關資訊的話，我們會提供給檢調這方面。"],["徐委員巧芯：他們有向你們提供相關資訊嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：目前應該還沒有，目前還沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以不曉得目前偵辦的情況如何……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，而且我們也不適合去說明那個偵辦的事情。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，因為我們非常擔心如果羅致政委員的錄音檔為真，包含的是他做為外交及國防委員會的召委，他平常和包含我們很多三軍將士、包含國安局長（您），還有很多人，都有對話的過程，當中如果有錄音，如果是從他的手機外流出去的，恐怕不只有蔡總統的談話被錄音，局長，您同意嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想對於各種可能性的推測我們尊重委員的猜測，因為它已經在偵辦過程當中，我還是會建議由司法警察機關來……"],["徐委員巧芯：但是司法檢調的部分只會針對比方這個錄音是否為真去做辨識，可是我們今天擔心的是沒有被公布出來的部分，我們先假定這個東西是真的，它外流出去了，但它怎麼外流的，是否是被駭客入侵的，如果是被駭客入侵的，他有沒有去掌握所有的，可能包含我的手機，包含我們馬委員的手機、沈委員的手機，有沒有我們外交及國防委員會委員的手機被駭客入侵的問題？這一點司法檢調不會調查，這一點是國安單位應該要掌握的，請問我們國安局這段時間以來對於這些情資的處理做得怎麼樣？"],["蔡局長明彥：基本上，我們不會對國內政治人物做相關政治的偵防或資安的偵防，但是假如貴院的委員有這方面疑慮的話，國安局很願意提供相關的專業知識或提供必要的協助。"],["徐委員巧芯：最起碼應該針對羅致政委員的這個部分要去做更詳盡的調查，因為他過去是外交及國防委員會的召委，跟你、跟在座的各位過去都有很多私下的談話，假設這個為真，而不是他個人主動外流，是被其他人所竊取，我們就會合理地推斷還有其他相當多國防、國安機密的內容是外流的，他們或許基於其他的理由沒有讓它在網路上面曝光，但是我們國安單位是不是要去掌握到底有多少的情資外流，我們到底有沒有做這些動作呢？從2024大選到現在。"],["蔡局長明彥：我想尊重委員的推論，有各種可能的狀況，正如委員剛剛所假設的，這是你自己的一個推論（speculation），各種可能性都有，包括可能是不是手機遭駭……"],["徐委員巧芯：但是我們國安單位不就是針對各種可能性都要去提前地防範嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們今天不能如果今天流出了蔡總統的，調查蔡總統的；明天如果流出局長的，調查局長的；後天流出國防部長的，調查國防部長的，如果我們知道它外洩是來自於他錄音的手機，有這樣子的可能性，我們是否在情資上面的布線就應該要更完整地來做相關的調查？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們會重視的還是在於資通訊的安全，我剛剛有在跟委員報告的是我們不會去偵查委員通訊的狀況……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是去偵查委員的手機，而是從各方面去瞭解是否有特定的駭客……"],["蔡局長明彥：瞭解。"],["徐委員巧芯：或是境外的勢力要用這樣子的勢力去竊取包含外交及國防委員會的機密，然後相關的機密是否已經在外流傳，這和你去調查委員的手機是兩回事，手機的調查是檢調的事情，不關你的事，但有沒有其他的國安情資已經外洩？那絕對是你的職權，是吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這部分中共端有可能透過各種的滲透手法，包括資通訊各方面的侵害……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我們是想問，針對這個委員的部分現在調查得如何？從2024年的選舉過程到現在，有做過任何的處置嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：只要相關的案例發生之後……"],["徐委員巧芯：就以羅委員的部分，我們等一下還會問其他的人。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，就相關案例……"],["徐委員巧芯：這個部分沒有，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，相關案例的部分就是由檢調來釐清相關的狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以國安局並沒有去做……"],["蔡局長明彥：以國安局的狀況來講，我們會注意中共對於我們國內各種資通安全的侵害，這是我們最高度關注的。"],["徐委員巧芯：瞭解，再跟您確認一次，針對羅致政委員的部分，我們就單純送到檢調，國安局沒有做其他任何的處置，對吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們剛剛也有講到這部分我們在溯源。"],["徐委員巧芯：瞭解，沒問題，我們再問下一位，這個跟手機已經沒有關係了。這是當時資深的外交及國防委員趙天麟委員，因為他的緋聞對象是1位大陸籍女子，當時就有非常多的立法委員詢問有沒有涉及國安疑慮，當事人當下聲稱他願意接受國安調查，請問這方面的調查結果如何？有沒有涉入所謂的境外勢力介入選舉？"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛委員提到的這些案子都已經送到司法機關進行偵辦。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個沒有啊！這跟司法沒有關係，這是他個人的私德問題。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，他個人也是把這案子移送到檢調機關。"],["徐委員巧芯：但問題是他說願意接受國安調查，司法的部分歸司法、國安的部分歸國安，所以我想請問在趙天麟案上面，我們國安單位有沒有做相對應的啟動？"],["蔡局長明彥：跟委員說明一下，國安局是情報機關，我們並不是司法警察機關，所以我們的情報主要是聚焦在中共有沒有相關的滲透手法。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是司法檢察機關做的也不是所謂的國安調查，所以我們要問的是這名女子是否在國安調查中被認定是刻意接近外交及國防的委員來竊取機密？我是針對這個部分，跟司法檢調無關的。"],["蔡局長明彥：還是有關，因為司法檢調有針對這個問題來行文詢問……"],["徐委員巧芯：問你們了嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有問了。"],["徐委員巧芯：那怎麼樣呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們在回答司法檢調的過程……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以在這個案子上你們有啟動相關的調查？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們有把相關的資訊提供給檢調單位。"],["徐委員巧芯：我可不可以換一句話問？在趙天麟案所調查的這名大陸籍女子，他是否涉及境外勢力影響臺灣選舉？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個訊息出來的時間點確實是比較敏感，因為是在選舉期間，另外我剛才也跟委員提到了，這些影片所暴露的對象幾乎都是特定政黨的相關黨政人士，所以在時間上還有在特定對象上，就我們國安單位來講，我們不能排除有中共介選的動作……"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，所以你們在趙天麟案上不能排除這個事件有中國大陸介選的問題嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，各種可能都有，我們會協助檢調釐清案情。"],["徐委員巧芯：另外，最近立法院上上下下接到很多恐嚇信，包含韓國瑜院長、江啟臣副院長、多名立法院的藍綠立委，請問目前的掌握、評估有沒有國安相關的疑慮？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個案子事實上是刑事局的一個專案調查，因為不是單一個案，這幾年有非常多的案件出現，所掌握的狀況……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們針對近期發生的這件事情就好了。"],["蔡局長明彥：目前刑事局所掌握的資訊顯示是境外的陸籍人士在進行這種郵件恐嚇。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是目前對臺灣的政壇沒有所謂的國安影響？單純就是大陸比較偏網路的這方面，是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：跟委員說明一下，現在透過這種網路郵件的恐嚇對象主要是桃園國際機場占最大量，另外是總統府、警政署的署長信箱，接下來就是各委員相關的民意信箱。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，瞭解。因為時間的關係，我還有一個小問題想請教你，最近金廈海域的事件，大家都非常關心國安層次對該事件的掌握，我想問第一時間在金廈海域發生這樣狀況的時候有沒有通知蔡英文總統？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，第一時間我記得是在2月14號中午大概一點多的時間，我們在第一時間就有掌握相關的情資，第一時間我所知道的是海巡弟兄很辛苦地動員各式船艦跟人員進行搜救，因為4名船員中有1名一直沒找到，後來發現船長被壓在船的底下，這部分幾乎整個下午都在做搜救作業，所以我們國安單位都有掌握相關的資訊給……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們要問的是掌握之後有沒有讓蔡總統清楚明白整個過程？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，都有進行必要的通報。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問當時向蔡總統報告的時候，是不是使用海巡弟兄第一時間所提出來的報告？有沒有這件事情？主席，不好意思！因為海巡也在，是否可以請他們也上來稍微說明一下？"],["主席：請副署長。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們海巡單位的弟兄第一時間有很清楚地把整個過程都寫出來，請問我們是否有將該份報告上呈給總統參考？"],["張副署長忠龍：跟委員報告，我們呈上去的這個報告，我不曉得到底有沒有整個給蔡總統，但是我們有往上……"],["徐委員巧芯：是否有這份報告？包含管制長、海域執行官等人、巡防組勤務指揮科，他們是否有做相關的報告？在第一時間提供出來。"],["張副署長忠龍：我們案情的摘要部分會往上送。"],["徐委員巧芯：有往上送？"],["張副署長忠龍：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問一下國安局長這邊所掌握的、第一時間海巡提供的，是不是就把他們的報告呈交給蔡總統？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們收到相關的意外事件都會把最新的資訊通報到各單位，都會有。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為兩位都在，海巡弟兄第一時間寫了很詳盡的報告，再給大家看一下，報告之後也拿這個報告呈交給蔡總統，讓他做國情相關的評估，是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我說明一下，就國安局來講，我們收到的資訊來自各部會，可能不只海巡，還有其他單位，所以是綜合的分析。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，我只是想問這一份有沒有提供給蔡總統？海巡弟兄第一時間所做的相關報告有沒有提供給蔡總統做參考？"],["張副署長忠龍：報告委員，我們往上呈的報告是摘要報告，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：摘要報告？所以這份可能沒有看？你們沒有往上送這一份完整的，是嗎？上面有誰收過呢？署長、許副署長、張副署長、主任秘書、巡防組組長、督察組組長都有收到這份報告，你們不是上呈這份報告給蔡總統，是更簡要的報告，是嗎？"],["張副署長忠龍：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，所以總統不知道你們在第一時間寫的就是雙方船隻是因碰撞而導致翻覆，瞭解了！因為時間的關係，我們就先這樣。"],["蔡局長明彥：相關的情勢我們都彙整給政府決策參考。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：海巡的部分我們不知道運作狀況，但我們都有整體的分析，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-4","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","陳冠廷","邱志偉","賴士葆","張啓楷","吳宗憲","陳永康","林憶君","王定宇","黃仁","王鴻薇","洪申翰"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發\n展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131001_00012"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.77346875,"end":4.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.269718750000003,"end":12.450968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.73784375,"end":13.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.087843750000001,"end":72.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.51471875,"end":36.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.54284375,"end":108.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.63909375,"end":77.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.11909375,"end":84.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.68721875,"end":93.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.72034375000001,"end":98.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.63159375000001,"end":98.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.18284375,"end":114.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.08971875,"end":110.56221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.03471875000001,"end":136.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.21034375,"end":122.00346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.00721875,"end":125.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.11096875,"end":151.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.97346875000002,"end":171.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.98721875,"end":182.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.55096875,"end":207.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.67784375000002,"end":221.11034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.35096875000002,"end":232.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.72909375,"end":231.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.55159375000002,"end":237.98534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.98534375000003,"end":240.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.35221875000002,"end":242.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.63034375,"end":246.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.11096875,"end":247.26659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.45659375000002,"end":246.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.18221875,"end":275.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.38034375,"end":284.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.82284375,"end":279.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.31596875,"end":282.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.29034375000003,"end":325.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.73534375,"end":338.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.13534375,"end":331.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.50971875000005,"end":374.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.38596875,"end":378.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.73971875,"end":385.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.73096875000005,"end":381.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.23659375,"end":412.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.33284375000005,"end":390.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.37159375000005,"end":421.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.99471875,"end":452.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.10846875000004,"end":423.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.56721875000005,"end":429.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.01096875,"end":461.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.16596875000005,"end":468.27846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.58221875000004,"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這個跟司法沒有關係這是他個人的私德的問題他個人也是把這個案子有移送到檢調局但是問題是他說他願意接受的是國安調查他當時不是司法的部分歸司法國安的部分歸國安所以我想請問在趙天麟案上面我們國安單位有沒有做相對應的啟動"},{"start":546.393,"end":565.547,"text":"國安局是情報機關,我們並不是司法檢查機關所以我們要問的是這名女子她是否在我們的國安調查當中認定是刻意的來接近國防外交的委員來竊取機密是針對這個部分,跟司法檢調無關的"},{"start":566.608,"end":567.328,"text":"是否涉及境外勢力影響台灣選舉"},{"start":592.376,"end":616.524,"text":"這個訊息出來的時間點確實是比較敏感因為確實是在選舉的期間那另外我剛才跟委員提到了這些影片所暴露的對象幾乎都是特定政黨的相關的黨政人士所以在時間上還有在特定對象上就我們國安單位來講我們不能夠排除有中共借選的問題所以你們在趙天麟案上面不能夠排除他們這個事件是有中國大陸這個借選的問題嗎對各種可能都有我們會協助檢調來釐清案情"},{"start":620.145,"end":642.56,"text":"最近立法院上上下下接到很多的恐嚇信包含是韓國瑜院長包含是江啟臣副院長我們立法院的多名藍綠的立委請問目前掌握評估有沒有國安相關的疑慮對這個案子事實上他針對刑事局的一個專案調查因為不是單一個案這幾年有非常多的這個案件出現"},{"start":643.24,"end":672.04,"text":"我們就針對近期發生的這件事情就好了目前刑事局所掌握的資訊顯示的是境外的入籍人士在進行這一種國安授課但是目前是沒有對臺灣的政壇有所謂的國安影響的單純就是比如說大陸的他是比較偏網路上面的這方面對,他有跟我們說明一下他現在透過這種網路郵件的恐嚇的對象大概有包括到主要的是桃園國際機場占最大量另外是總統府"},{"start":672.941,"end":694.56,"text":"另外是警政署的署長信箱那接下來就是各個委員的相關的民意信箱因為時間的關係我還有一個小問題想要來請教你就是說最近金下海域的事件大家都非常關心我們大概國安層次對該事件的掌握我想要問在第一時間金下海域發生這樣狀況的時候有沒有通知蔡英文總統"},{"start":695.857,"end":713.685,"text":"有在第一時間我記得是發生在2月14號的下午中午大概一點多的時間那我們在第一時間就有掌握相關的情質第一時間我所知道的是海巡的弟兄很辛苦的動員各式的船艦跟人員來進行搜救因為原來四名船員當中有一名一直沒有找到"},{"start":714.065,"end":718.129,"text":"那請問我們在當時向蔡總統報告的時候是不是使用了我們海巡弟兄第一時間所提出來的報告"},{"start":737.67,"end":752.299,"text":"我們海巡也在是否可以請他們也上來稍微說明一下就是說我們海巡單位第一時間其實弟兄是有很清楚的把整個資訊過程都寫出來的請問我們是否是將該份報告上呈給總統參考"},{"start":755.135,"end":778.238,"text":"公務委員報告我們上去的這個報告我不曉得那個到底有沒有整個給蔡總統但是我沒有但是是否有這份報告包含是管制長黃志誠海域執行官吳俊雄等人巡防組勤務指揮科他們是否有做相關的報告提供出來的時間我們那個案情的摘要部分會往上送"},{"start":779.679,"end":798.815,"text":"所以這份我們可能就是國安局長這邊請問一下我們所掌握的第一時間海巡提供的是不是就是把他們的報告送成交給蔡總統我們收到相關的意外事件都會把相關的最新的資訊報告海巡所以是不是我們兩位都在嗎就是海巡弟兄第一時間寫了很詳盡的"},{"start":801.317,"end":820.965,"text":"再給大家看一下很詳細的報告報告之後就拿這個報告然後我們也呈交給蔡總統讓他做國情相關的評估我們說到資訊來自各部會可能不只海巡還有其他單位沒有我只是想問這一份有沒有提供給蔡總統就海巡弟兄第一時間所做的相關報告有沒有提供給蔡總統做參考"},{"start":823.099,"end":833.315,"text":"我們是摘要報告往上送摘要報告所以這份可能沒有看你們沒有往上送這一份完整的是嗎"},{"start":834.372,"end":859.668,"text":"上面有誰收過呢?署長、許副署長、張副署長、主任秘書、巡防組組長、督察組組長都有收到這份報告我們不是上呈這份報告給蔡總統是更簡要的報告是嗎?是所以總統不知道最後一分鐘總統不知道你們在第一時間裡面寫的就是雙方船隻是因碰撞而導致翻覆了解了那因為時間的關係相關情節我們都會整給政府決定單考"},{"start":860.77,"end":863.729,"text":"海巡的部分我們不知道運作狀況但我們都有整體的分析"}]}},{"id":"149622","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149622","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300c2e2973f22bf0c341cfe294bc3fbc1e0f8ba9b0039caa7a6e9d50a309363faa25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:40:01 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09:50:58","影片長度":"00:10:57","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部列席就「國家運動科學中心如何協助運動選手，提升參加國際競賽成績之具體作為。」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":657,"end_time":"2024-03-11T09:50:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T09:40:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":340,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時40分）謝謝召委。有請林騰蛟次長，還有鄭世忠署長。"],["主席：好，我們請林次長、鄭署長。"],["林次長騰蛟：萬委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：兩位早。我看到你們的報告第2頁寫到：運科中心甫成立，儀器設備、人員編制、組織架構、運作模式等尚在建構階段，尤其在運科大樓（包含戶外多功能檢測場）尚未落成前，工作目標以組建營運團隊及營運準備工作為首要推動項目。報告上面是這樣寫，沒有錯嘛！對嗎？"],["林次長騰蛟：是的。"],["萬委員美玲：也就是說，在現在整個運科大樓還沒有建設完成之前，我們都在做一些準備工作，請問運科大樓預計什麼時候會落成？"],["林次長騰蛟：跟委員報告……"],["萬委員美玲：給我一個大約的時間就好。"],["林次長騰蛟：是的，運科大樓的興建已經報行政院申請公建……"],["萬委員美玲：我只要知道大概什麼時候可以落成？"],["林次長騰蛟：順利的話，爭取是明年114年的公建，如果可以的話。今年會先做初期規劃，正式工程大概明年開始……"],["萬委員美玲：次長啊！哪一年會完成啦？"],["林次長騰蛟：118年。"],["萬委員美玲：118年，好，也就是說，從現在到118年之間，都叫做落成前，亦即未來這5年當中，整個運科中心都在做一些什麼營運團隊準備工作的這些事情，是這樣嗎？"],["林次長騰蛟：跟委員報告，不是，那個是目前，因為它是去年……"],["萬委員美玲：對嘛！我猜想啦，就是說目前是這樣做……"],["林次長騰蛟：因為它是新的單位，包含空間也要做處理，尤其是人員配置，都要運科中心……"],["萬委員美玲：是，次長，剛才我聽到您在答詢時提到預計大概的員額是100人，目前也招了大概53人，不足員額繼續在招聘當中，但其實我很納悶，您知道今年可能都只是做一些準備工作，一沒有辦公場所，二也還不知道人員要做什麼，原來是擔心你沒有招滿人，現在本席還擔心你人招滿以後，到底要他們做些什麼？去年9月沸沸揚揚的掛牌，然後說要成立運科中心，可是我們看到掛牌之後，可以說是百廢待舉，我覺得這種急就章，難不成是在去年選舉之前，為了希望多一項政績而開出來的支票，後面才要讓你們慢慢收拾，搞得大家人仰馬翻嗎？我覺得政策這樣是不太好啦！當然，未來運科中心要成立，恐怕中間看起來還有些變數，本席知道運科中心的這塊土地現在是國防部在使用，對不對？"],["林次長騰蛟：是，目前是國防部的土地，不過我們已經跟國防部協調過了，對於運科中心興建大樓所需要的3公頃土地，他們會先提供使用……"],["萬委員美玲：次長，現在國防部也還在使用中，必須是他們的另外一塊土地好了以後，才能把這個地方遷走……"],["林次長騰蛟：那個是……"],["萬委員美玲：你有沒有想過，這中間也有可能……我們都知道，其實現在公共工程都一直在延宕當中，一旦國防部要遷過去的那個地方的工程有延宕，我們這邊也就會跟著延宕，所以本席真的是非常擔憂，希望教育部、體育署能夠盯好運科中心這個大樓的工程，也要加把勁，要不然往後一直延，本來是熱熱鬧鬧揭牌說要啟用，結果到後來，不要說5年，拖到6年、7年都有可能。另外還有一點，就是本席真的快要被運科中心還有國訓中心的運科處搞混了，我看了半天，真不知道到底差別在哪裡，我給你30秒時間，你重點告訴我最大的差別是什麼？"],["林次長騰蛟：跟委員報告，國訓中心的運動科學處主要是在教練和選手的實際運用部分，跟選手、教練比較貼身、比較密切，包含比如運動防護、運動醫療，或者是體適能訓練等，這個部分實際的支援和協助是由國訓中心處理。而運科中心主要是在研究規劃、協助開發部分，包含輔具，或是進行相關的研究分析，然後跟國訓中心一起來協助教練跟選手。"],["萬委員美玲：所以您的意思是，在還沒有運科中心之前，您剛剛說的這些業務，國訓中心……"],["林次長騰蛟：它該做的事情……"],["萬委員美玲：都沒有人辦囉？"],["林次長騰蛟：對，是的。"],["萬委員美玲：唉！我希望運科中心真的要有它的功能在……"],["林次長騰蛟：是，但運科中心也配合今年東京奧運開始辦理，所以運科中心現有人員已經有跟國訓中心建立窗口，進行相關的支援跟協助。"],["萬委員美玲：好，次長，我再請教您，剛才提到國訓中心是跟選手最有直接關係，對嗎？"],["林次長騰蛟：是的。"],["萬委員美玲：就是選手的任何事項，其實國訓中心大概都要給予很多的幫忙跟支援，做後盾嘛！我想請教一下，現在國訓中心選手的飲食，吃的好、吃的健康最重要，有關國訓中心的菜單，這部分次長有看過、署長有看過嗎？"],["林次長騰蛟：是，我有看過，而且曾經有幾次場合，我也實際去瞭解跟食用。"],["萬委員美玲：好，現在教育部已經下令全國所有學校禁用辣椒粉、胡椒粉，恐怕再來是沙茶醬，但是我們的國訓中心，本席看到3月14日，我們的餐點還有椒麻雞，3月15日還有泡菜豬，3月18日還給他們吃咖哩豬，我們要知道，為什麼教育部現在要在學校全面禁止辣椒粉、胡椒粉，就是因為有疑慮，而衛福部也還沒有辦法完全給大家一個很透明的資訊，什麼產品有中鏢，什麼產品沒有中鏢，為了審慎起見，所以教育部全面禁止學校營養午餐使用辣椒粉、胡椒粉、咖哩粉等等，將來恐怕還有沙茶，但看起來國訓中心是沒有作為，是怎麼樣？是國訓中心的這一些選手也好，人員也好，健康不重要嗎？我們都知道這個蘇丹紅一旦吃進肚子裡後，恐怕有致癌風險，對於不管是膀胱、脾臟、肝腎，恐怕都有很大傷害，為什麼這一點沒有禁？"],["林次長騰蛟：跟委員報告，國訓中心因為涉及到選手的運動禁藥，對於食材以及選手用餐部分，向來都非常非常重視，就以中心提供給選手自行添加的辣椒為例，都是由廚師使用生辣椒熬煮之後限量供應，所以並沒有直接由廠商提供販售的辣椒粉等等……"],["萬委員美玲：所以次長，連胡椒粉你們都是自己做嗎？"],["林次長騰蛟：欸！至於……"],["萬委員美玲：胡椒粉也是自己做的嗎？咖哩粉也是自己做的嗎？"],["林次長騰蛟：但是我們有清查，就是請國訓中心清查……"],["萬委員美玲：次長，本席就請教您，您剛剛說辣椒粉你們用新鮮的辣椒自製……"],["林次長騰蛟：對，我們自製辣椒。"],["萬委員美玲：那我請教一下，我們有沒有用到胡椒粉？有沒有用到咖哩？看起來有嘛！3月18日你們吃了咖哩豬……"],["林次長騰蛟：跟委員報告，我們有清查含辣椒的一些食材，像剛剛提到的咖哩塊或者辣椒粉……"],["萬委員美玲：你用了咖哩塊……"],["林次長騰蛟：我們也清查了，都不是屬於受害廠商生產的產品。"],["萬委員美玲：你可以做百分之百的保證……"],["林次長騰蛟：這個我們有清查，有清查。"],["萬委員美玲：衛福部都沒有辦法講的這麼清楚了，教育部次長可以做這樣的保證，是嗎？"],["林次長騰蛟：因為我們有清查這件事情，當然……"],["萬委員美玲：次長，今天教育部……"],["林次長騰蛟：針對……"],["萬委員美玲：次長，用聽的，不要搶話。"],["林次長騰蛟：是。"],["萬委員美玲：這種搶話的答詢是非常不好，是不尊重的喔！"],["林次長騰蛟：是，謝謝委員。"],["萬委員美玲：你不聽怎麼知道問題在哪裡？"],["林次長騰蛟：是。"],["萬委員美玲：我想我們的國手跟所有學生是一樣重要的，如果教育部在衛福部資訊不明的情況之下，營養午餐全面禁用辣椒粉、胡椒粉以及咖哩等等，為什麼國訓中心只針對辣椒，覺得是自製沒有問題，但其他胡椒、咖哩，你們都不打算禁止，為什麼？"],["林次長騰蛟：跟委員報告，我們國訓中心也配合高雄市政府，已經在3月7號宣布暫時停用咖哩粉、辣椒粉，並調整供餐菜色，這個部分我們同步在處理。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，還有署長，選手的身體健康非常非常重要，在蘇丹紅事件爆發之後，雖然教育部慢了一點點，但終究還是比體育署對於國訓中心的這個部分要來得更快一些，小朋友的健康很重要，選手健康也很重要，次長，從今天開始起，本席希望國訓中心的選手餐點，有關辣椒粉、胡椒粉跟咖哩的部分，也可以做一個期限內的禁用，您同意嗎？"],["林次長騰蛟：是的，我們跟政府同步，事實上在上週3月7號已經配合高雄市政府宣布停用了。"],["萬委員美玲：上個禮拜是嗎？"],["林次長騰蛟：是，7號開始。"],["萬委員美玲：我希望以後你們針對食安風暴的反應要再快一點，不能夠說在蘇丹紅事件爆發之後，在3月8日之後，我們在14、15、18日還分別吃了椒麻雞、泡菜豬跟咖哩豬，甚至您剛才還要強辯，說什麼辣椒是你們新鮮做的，難道胡椒你也會做、咖哩你也會做，通通都是你自製的？不可能嘛！所以我們不要強辯，碰到問題要去解決問題，好嗎？"],["林次長騰蛟：是，謝謝委員。"],["萬委員美玲：最後一點，對於現在的運科中心，去年我們也編了預算，但是我們看到去年度的預算數是4,032萬，因為是從9月開始嘛！但執行率真的非常差，只有40%，而今年的預算是1億多。去年執行得這麼差，原因是什麼？今年可以有效執行嗎？能不能簡單報告一下？"],["林次長騰蛟：委員報告，因為去年8月1日開始正式營運，揭牌是9月16日，加上是新設單位，所以初期只有執行長、副執行長等相關的主要重要幹部，尚須要人員招募等等，所以可能在執行率上確實比較不如理想。今年度開始人員慢慢到位，也務實去做一些相關規劃，就這部分我們會督促運科中心，希望在預算執行上能夠提高。"],["萬委員美玲：我們今年會緊盯預算執行率，也希望部裡面加油。在去年高調掛牌之後，希望未來的執行營運也要能跟得上去年的高調，好不好？"],["林次長騰蛟：好，謝謝萬委員的支持。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員的質詢。","再來我們請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":280,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","萬美玲","葉元之","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","范雲","羅美玲","牛煦庭","吳春城","徐巧芯","黃國昌","柯志恩","林倩綺","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":219,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部列席就「國家運動科學中心如何協助運動選手，提升參加國際競賽成績之具體作\n為。」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00005"}},"transcript":{"py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我想"},{"start":583.255,"end":604.883,"text":"對於我們現在運科中心在去年我們也編了預算但是我們看到去年度的預算數因為9月開始嘛4032萬但是執行率真的非常的差只有40%只有40%那到今年的預算1億多我在想去年執行這麼差原因是什麼那麼今年可以有效做執行嗎能不能簡單報告一下"},{"start":606.924,"end":622.414,"text":"委員報告一下因為去年是8月1日開始政治營運接9月16號所以呢時間是因為包含另外是新設單位所以初期的時候就只有執行長副執行長等相關的主要的中央幹部所以還要包含人員的這個招募等等"},{"start":622.534,"end":652.244,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":652.947,"end":653.69,"text":"謝謝萬美玲的支持 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149621","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149621","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300a7d0b617444feb9943c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a669935296c30cbcfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:40:17 - 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"start":145.498,"end":145.718,"text":"李董的投票率"},{"start":161.793,"end":188.499,"text":"各位可以看到不然是澎湖金門連江離島的投票率其實又更遠低於全國的平均投票率所以我覺得在這個部分看起來我們是不是更該盡速的完成不在籍投票的立法所以在這邊也請教主委對於我們這次的選舉罷免的總統副總統的選罷法還有公職人員的選罷法的不在籍投票目前有進度嗎"},{"start":189.981,"end":207.134,"text":"第一點我跟委員報告就是說這個投票率的高低恐怕沒有辦法很簡單的把它規則到一個某一個特定的單一的原因這個牽涉到很多複雜的這個因素交錯所形成的那這一點第一點說明"},{"start":208.115,"end":221.265,"text":"第二點說明不在即投票的部分我剛剛也說了102年就提出一次的總統副總統的而且是只限於這個移轉投票我剛有認真在聽為什麼沒有辦法完成這個立法的程序呢最主要就是說各方的意見分歧這是一個非常非常複雜的一個個人意見"},{"start":234.855,"end":235.035,"text":"主席"},{"start":266.096,"end":283.885,"text":"這個就要看大院的審查的程序了是不是能夠在這個會期裡面完成如果大家共識這麼高要推動不再舉投票大家的共識是很高如何推動擁有不同的這個看法但是最基本的跨出這一步應該是非常非常重要的"},{"start":284.045,"end":308.478,"text":"因為我想主委也很清楚我剛剛看你們的報告也有很多我們的委員參加各種國際的選舉的組織的各項活動所以應該很清楚在很多的民主國家不管是美國英國德國法國甚至是我們附近的日韓其實他們行使不在籍投票的選舉都已經行之有年而且也都施行的非常好那為什麼中選會針對這個部分你們有去跟他們交流學習嗎"},{"start":309.908,"end":332.667,"text":"有關於不在籍投票的各國實施的情形我們都有相關的資料的收集也跟我們參加的兩個會員國際組織的會員國之間大家有過討論當然各方的各國實施的這個經驗都可以作為我們的參考那在臺灣我們非常重要的就是說我們不希望一個選制的改變那對於選務能夠"},{"start":335.97,"end":338.471,"text":"主委參考民主國家的不在籍投票目前不在籍投票有哪幾種方式?"},{"start":356.161,"end":357.382,"text":"其實我看剛剛提到這幾國大部分都有通訊投票跟提前投票這兩種"},{"start":384.474,"end":387.718,"text":"公投不再起投票規劃移轉投票公投當然就是針對公共議題來進行投票相較於總統跟公職員的選務是相對的比較單純"},{"start":402.518,"end":421.931,"text":"所以說你們要先做一個前期的實驗的性質那如果是這樣的話我想請教一下主委我們既然是一個前期實驗的一個性質我們是不是可以把更多不同的不在籍投票法也施行在裡面來看看這樣子的一個實驗的結果是不是可以作為將來總統跟我們其他的公責人選舉的一個參考比如說就我剛剛講的通訊投票還有提前投票這些"},{"start":429.916,"end":456.836,"text":"是不是能夠可以提高我們公民行使的投票權的意願呢?委員所提到的通訊投票我們馬上考慮到的一個還不只是說選務能不能夠可行的問題而是他有沒有這個選舉公平性選舉秘密這個投票秘密保障的一些風險存在你的通訊投票真的按摩摩"},{"start":457.737,"end":459.639,"text":"通訊投票對公平性和私密性是絕對可以克服的"},{"start":480.277,"end":481.338,"text":"依轉投票在我國的選舉實務上是已經有經驗我們希望在這個經驗的基礎上我們有跨出去"},{"start":507.261,"end":507.301,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"149620","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149620","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43004d51e5089cb70175ee83bb1dd0927c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6c53c89e6150c5b455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：不實廣告是你們主管。"],["李主任委員鎂：對。就是看它的行為，如果涉及到刑事的，當然是檢調單位或司法警察單位要處理，所以要看它的行為類型。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。我們先繼續談，公平交易委員會組織法第二條，掌理事項列了這麼多，我剛講了，這個法制定的時候、你們成立的時候，網路交易相關各種類型還沒有這麼複雜，但現在是非常複雜。日常交易，在網路上便宜出售3C貨品，吸引買家上鉤匯款，拖延不給貨，像這種類型的，你剛才講涉及到刑事責任就是司法單位，事實上不是，誰是司法單位？警察是不是司法單位？警察不是嘛，但是現在全部交給警察啊，有這種網路詐騙的就是警察在處理。其實警察法或是警政署相關的這些法律職掌，他們其實是協助，在法律的用詞上他們是協助，但現在全部都是他們，包括網路詐騙、宣導等各方面，都是他們。所以這個部分要怎麼樣去與時俱進？畢竟警察單位還是有限，它只能移送，所以怎麼去解決這些問題，公平交易委員會是不是要去考量、去思考要不要修法、要不要更明確？","我剛才提過了，維護交易秩序與消費者權益，當然行政院有消保委員會，有一些東西就往那邊，事實上最後很多的前提都是……所以這個部分怎麼樣去解決，這是需要去思考的，因為臺灣是已開發國家被詐金額最高的國家，這對臺灣來講、對臺灣的人民來講是一個非常大的傷害，作為一個政府的主任委員、一個行政院的主任委員，怎麼樣去解決這個問題，這是我們國家的問題，也許當初在立法時，如公平交易法以及公平會成立當初的人力等各方面沒有考慮到這些，所以要怎麼樣去做，要去做的話，當然人力就可以去調，有需求就可以去調整。主委，這個部分有沒有意願往這方向去考量、去檢討或是去研議？"],["李主任委員鎂：網路上的各種詐騙或是不實廣告的行為確實整個政府都要努力去讓它改善，就公平會在查處不實廣告方面，我們修了網路廣告的一些處理原則，尤其對於網路上的網紅、部落客，這些網路上的廣告，我們也修正了過去以實體為主的一些處理原則，我想這都是希望讓網路廣告的秩序能夠更精進，當然我們應該要繼續努力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：網路廣告是其中之一，但是網路交易是很複雜的，所以這個部分要怎麼樣去因應時代的變遷，因為這個在臺灣來講是非常嚴重，它很多都是網路交易，它就是交易，所以最起碼你們在各縣市辦宣導時，也要把這個納入宣導的範圍內。","我們看公平交易法第二十五條，「除本法另有規定者外，事業亦不得為其他足以影響交易秩序之欺罔或顯失公平之行為。」欺罔就是欺騙。網路交易對一般人民而言就是一個交易，他認為它是一個事業，賣東西啊，這不是事業嗎？不是個人哦！它是用事業的方式，所以法還是有它可以應用的地方。這個部分畢竟目前在臺灣是一個非常普遍的情形，而且還不是說只有一般人民被騙，很多高官都有啊，學者也都有啊。所以這個部分是需要去加強的地方，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個是我們需要繼續去努力加強的地方，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","接下來我們請楊瓊瓔召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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訊"},{"start":387.785,"end":415.056,"text":"網絡廣告是其中之一啦但是網路交易他的很複雜的所以這個不能去怎麼樣去因應這個時代的變遷這個因為這個是非常嚴重在臺灣來講非常的嚴重他很多都是就是網路交易就是他就是交易所以"},{"start":419.362,"end":441.054,"text":"最起碼你們都在各縣市辦這些先導的時候也把這個納入在先導的範圍裡面這個如果我們看公平交易法第25條除本法另有規定者外事業亦不得為"},{"start":442.682,"end":467.048,"text":"其他足以影響交易自細之期望或顯示公平之行為。期望就是欺騙嘛所以你說他在網路教育對一般人民而言他就是一個教育然後他是一個事業他認為他是一個事業"},{"start":470.397,"end":496.57,"text":"對,賣東西啊,他不是事業嗎?不是個人喔!他說用事業的那個,所以法還是有他可以去運用的地方啊所以這個部分是這個畢竟是一個目前在台灣非常普遍的一個情形而且還不分,不是說一般的人民會被騙喔"},{"start":498.168,"end":498.348,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"149619","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149619","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43007c6e2c3960c6fe9943c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a64763dcd5b5be02255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:30:44 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並不是說僅限於公民投票 而是從公民投票開始我們徹底的根據實施的經驗再來做研議 再來做推廣那為什麼會有這樣子的考慮其實因為選舉的不在籍投票牽涉到的比較複雜的因素"},{"start":99.523,"end":113.658,"text":"所以有關於總統副總統的選舉不再集投票的辦法其實在102年105年都有兩度的被提出來因為朝野意見分歧沒有辦法達成基本的共識所以102年的是藉其不續審"},{"start":116.4,"end":132.187,"text":"105年的是行政院就把這個案子撤回去了再重新進行檢討那現在的策略是怎麼樣我跟委員報告現在策略就是說因為選舉你不能夠因為選制的一個改變一下子衝擊到選務造成選務的混亂的話那影響到整個選舉的公平所以我們是採取比較審慎的態度從公民投票"},{"start":140.071,"end":156.578,"text":"主委我想你回答得很清楚但這就跟我們開宗明義去談的這最大價值基本上就是相悖你剛剛講說選舉跟公投重要性一樣重要這是對於選民行使參政權的保障可是你在實務執行的時候你們顯然是把公投當成實驗"},{"start":157.378,"end":181.995,"text":"其實我們講大白話就是這樣你說我要先從這個東西做參酌然後從這個經驗來延伸其實他的意思就變成把共和黨實驗當然我理解主委沒關係我理解就是說選務操辦是很複雜的事而且我也贊成主委剛剛講公信力很重要所以我不能理解但是我希望這次在討論的時候因為本黨有提出非常多不在籍投票的修法法案我希望既然民眾是有這樣子的需求"},{"start":182.335,"end":202.007,"text":"希望基於辨明也希望基於平等的概念能夠一步到位我們今天因為質詢的時間畢竟有限到時候修法的時候我們可能還會有專門的時間來做討論跟報告選務單位的意見我們很忠實的來提供給各位我現在今天做質詢的意思就是請主委先做準備好不好我們的議定主張"},{"start":203.427,"end":231.513,"text":"選舉跟公投要並進那當然範圍上可進可退主管機關的困難之處大家要著於採納社會的質疑之處大家要著於說明但是我們要先做準備好不好所以這是本期今天提的第一個問題適用的範圍跟實施的方式都需要做準備中選會請你先提版本嘛就像你現在公投有不在籍一樣地方選務你也先做好準備嘛好歹我們在到時候討論法案的時候這個草案是由內政部來提啦沒關係但是我是覺得你要做你要做單位的說明我們都有討論"},{"start":232.073,"end":232.253,"text":"主席"},{"start":249.761,"end":270.639,"text":"再來本席今天要做政策對話本席的主張叫選務成本高一點社會成本才會低一點剛剛我們討論不在一起投票其實就是一個例子但我們還是要再補充說明幾個其他的例子比如說第一個我們談這個剛剛結束的這樣大選的若干的所謂的選務爭議我完全理解基層選務人員他其實是非常辛苦的"},{"start":270.959,"end":271.459,"text":"中央選舉委員會主任"},{"start":287.851,"end":304.05,"text":"提升公信力的工作 絕對划算比如說票箱票櫃格式的全面統一比如說計票唱票的動作能不能規定的更細緻一點與此同時本席也強烈主張你再給予這些基層選務人員的津貼跟福利也要全面升級"},{"start":305.111,"end":333.944,"text":"這些東西去做下去的時候也許我們下一次選舉即便它還是高張力但是你這邊選務的細節東西做得越好質疑的聲音就會越少基層也會更有把握這樣子你同不同意本席的說法我絕對同意好不好那這一點我就請中選會就趕快來做研擬了像這種事情我是覺得不斷的在精進在選務的部分對啦讓民眾對我們能夠有信心這樣做喔那個過程如何能夠更加的透明這樣做選務單位會多花錢可是如果社會質疑能少一點社會成本是降低的"},{"start":334.144,"end":361.685,"text":"這就是我剛剛講的那我也跟委員報告一下我們一次選舉20幾萬的選務工作人員大部分來自公教上一部分是民間熱心的人士所以是熱心人士所以我講我們在規則的設計上在動線或者是物件的佈置上面能夠提高公信就降低他們壓力也是在幫他們說謊好不好第二個本席也提一下公投連署的事情你現在有電子連署系統剛剛張宏祿委員也有去做一些質疑"},{"start":362.366,"end":369.688,"text":"可是提案的部分好像沒有辦法用也許提案的門檻比較低啊可是既然都是同一套的科技設備你為什麼不能一體試用呢"},{"start":370.765,"end":391.813,"text":"提案的門檻比較低這是一個原因另外一個原因就是說因為這個公投的提案在提案正式成立要進行連署之前其實我們選務機關缺乏完整的一個審議的機制就是說你隨便進來都可以進來都可以那如果是這樣子的話恐怕會耗費很多的這個社會的成本"},{"start":397.196,"end":424.173,"text":"你的主張當然是從中選會的本位去做思考啦但是我們作為民意代表我們的本位是人民的權益嘛既然我們會弄出一個公投一定是人民對於這個題目有強烈的意志啦所以當然審查上一樣這是我剛剛講的你可能選務的成本會增加可是社會成本會降低嘛我們希望說這個東西透明方便快速有效那當然不表示你不審核嘛對不對但是我覺得把電子提案也納入聯署機制應該不會太困難啦"},{"start":424.813,"end":445.127,"text":"這一點我希望中委會來做思考再來我要再講的是那既然公投可以做電子連署我們這個相對來講沒有黨籍背書的政府總統候選人他的連署能不能也納入電子連署的機制好不好因為今天的時間今天的時間比較短啦這一部分你提供後面的一些資料但本席都希望科技的運用不要為得不足啦"},{"start":445.627,"end":473.225,"text":"一步到位那是比較好的也許一樣你選務又要適應啦但是對於整個社會來說如果是有效率的我是認為應該要大膽的往前跨對整個國家來講選務的穩定是非常非常重要這個本席也同意因為這個不能夠讓他有任何的一個錯亂對但是你要把這些東西大家都思考我們是很審慎我們不是固步自封我們是很審慎這一點也請大家能夠最後一點點時間本席要跟你談一下這個一些選務的改革當然也許跟內政部有關因為選政選務好像"},{"start":474.366,"end":492.462,"text":"有一點分工的這個問題但本期是強烈主張我們要逐步增加公費選舉的比例我們當然沒有不太容易用一部法律啊就讓所有的選舉都變成公費選舉但是我們可以增加公辦選舉的一些這個一些比例比如說我們現在在地方民意代表公辦政見發表會就一場"},{"start":493.283,"end":507.953,"text":"然後也不強制辯論或什麼的能不能透過增加場次的方式慢慢讓社會大眾認定說這一場選舉公辦政見發表是重要的我們能不能開始設計公辦看板的格式讓大家去知道"},{"start":508.933,"end":526.862,"text":"這個由公家來處理的統一格式的選舉它的比例是重要的它在選舉裡面的佔比跟話語權跟曝光度是提升的這樣可能沒有辦法一步到位但是它可以慢慢慢慢的走向公費選舉制的精神對於所有願意參選政治人物尤其是年輕世代來講我認為這是有正面意義的"},{"start":528.082,"end":553.187,"text":"這些事情我們剛剛講的不管是共同電子連署的提案我們剛剛講選務的一些精進措施我們講的選舉制度的一些方向的一些改革都會增加你們中選會的工作內容可是這些工作內容的增加成本的增加都會降低社會的成本提高選舉的公信力所以希望主委會後針對本席提的這幾個政策的建議去拟據一些書面的回應好讓我們知道推動的方向可以嗎好的謝謝主委辛苦了"},{"start":555.825,"end":561.297,"text":"謝謝我們牛煦庭的執行請我們下一位我們的"}]}},{"id":"149618","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149618","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430008f88e69b5da4e44af4279b9ad9aebfdf8ba9b0039caa7a6b67a135d127549fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:28:32 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局長你也認為中共暫時沒有武力犯台的這個動作是不是"},{"start":105.479,"end":126.337,"text":"我們最近在觀察兩會期間包括兩會之前的中共的對台工作會議以及兩會期間包括習近平接見各個專業團體的代表王滬寧的談話以及李強的工作報告我們可以發現到他基本的政策主軸還是圍繞在和平、統一所延續出來的反獨、觸統、觸容跟反對外力介入跟干涉這是他的主調"},{"start":126.957,"end":127.237,"text":"所以他以後會加重這個?"},{"start":154.397,"end":178.289,"text":"但他就是要讓台灣社會有一些對於武統的想像、空間或是恐懼來達到他一個武力恫嚇的目的所以基本上還是合同的路線只是有一個脅迫性在透過複合式威脅來達到脅迫性的一個合同路線的一個推展那在另外一方面他們也提出所謂的兩岸促統促容的相關的方案這包括福建有提出了21條的對台的措施在"},{"start":179.269,"end":195.721,"text":"全國兩會之前的福建的兩會他們過去的對台工作要點大概排在第6位第6順位但今年提升到第3順位也就是說在中央的大交流跟促統促融的工作指導之下福建也不斷地希望能夠推動兩岸的促統促融"},{"start":196.061,"end":201.466,"text":"中共對台政策主要還是所謂的軟硬的兩手壓拉的兩手策略來對我們施壓那我們預判在520的前後這樣子的一個壓拉的兩手策略會持續的來進行對台灣來施壓那也來影響新政府未來兩岸政策的一個走向"},{"start":222.145,"end":239.765,"text":"所以就算是給壓拉的這個方式基本上這個武力犯台的機率最近如果是近期來講是比較不可能發生的是嗎因為我有看到有一份報導就是中共的這個前情報員姚誠他有提到中國火箭軍的這個洩密案"},{"start":241.787,"end":266.7,"text":"他就提到說這個泄密案會影響中共攻台的這個計畫．會把這個很有可能之前他們所設定的這個攻台的這個時間表的往後延．所以對於這個說法．所以局長您認為呢．會不會也是因為這個火箭軍事件．所以造成對中國目前來講．是沒有能力來渡海犯台．這是姚誠的說法 局長您覺得呢"},{"start":267.1,"end":293.124,"text":"我想台海安全情勢的因素有非常非常的多而這些綜合因素交雜之下才會產生各種不同的劇本的情境那我們當然要針對不同因素所產生的不同劇本情境來做好相關的預應的方案跟措施就國安局的立場來講我們跟國防部還有相關的國安單位對於中共的軍事動態我們都有嚴密的掌控那也有相關的預應的措施"},{"start":293.584,"end":314.09,"text":"那我們透過各種的情監偵的手段來瞭解到中共目前軍事活動的最新的狀況同時也會跟國際的友盟針對中共現階段到底有沒有新興的意圖還有相關的活動那來做相關的情報的交流目前我們沒有看到台海戰事一觸即發的相關的情資"},{"start":314.65,"end":315.951,"text":"中共在第19屆六中全會有通過所謂的第三個歷史"},{"start":343.853,"end":365.924,"text":"歷史決議就是在毛澤東時期1945年的時候通過的那第二個歷史決議是在1981年鄧小平時代通過的那當然第三個歷史決議就是去2021年習近平所通過的所謂的第三個歷史決議我在想這個動作其實也是奠定"},{"start":367.664,"end":389.191,"text":"歷史定位的其中一個因為在所有的國家的領導人裡面也就是毛澤東、鄧小平跟習近平有提出了所謂的這個歷史決議那當然他的歷史決議跟鄧小平他的這個所覺得的內容其實有很大的這個分歧比如說鄧小平他那時候就覺得說不應該應該是要訂定一個比如說這個"},{"start":393.972,"end":394.032,"text":"羅美玲議員"},{"start":414.261,"end":415.362,"text":"這部分的話 局長是不是也可以讓有一個讓國人比較安心的這個說法"},{"start":437.637,"end":459.58,"text":"對我想習近平他畢竟是一個建立了一個強人政治的一個領導的風格那對於強人政治來講對於他自己的歷史定位他都會有相關的一個論述我們都必須要嚴密來注意他除了論述以外後續的實際的一個行動那比較要特別注意到的是2027年習近平要達成他們中國解放軍建軍百年的總目標"},{"start":460.22,"end":482.274,"text":"所以也造成這幾年他們在軍事上投注的資源非常的龐大事實上討論這個問題可能不能單單只是放在兩岸或台海的框架來講因為中國有他本身的大戰略希望能夠變成是一個區域甚至是全球性的強權他有他的各個階段不同的目標也正因為如此造成台海局勢以外不管是在東海、在南海或是在西太平洋"},{"start":482.654,"end":507.643,"text":"各個國家都看到了中國武力的擴張那這也是我剛剛在口頭的書面報告有提到的國際的友盟對於這一塊的發展的動態非常的關注那也注意到台灣就站在中共武力擴張的第一線那願意跟台灣在各方面發展安全或情報上的交流所以我們在面對中共武力擴張的同時雖然承受不少的壓力但同時也開放了不少的機會可以加強跟國際友盟的合作"},{"start":508.436,"end":535.714,"text":"是OK好謝謝局長那再來呢下一題就是有關於這個川普跟拜登那毫無懸念可能在今年的這個美國的大選應該就是拜登跟川普的這個對壘那川普跟拜登這兩個人其實對於在國在國際或國內他們的政策其實是有很大的不一樣那當然拜登呢最近的國情咨文裡面有提到就是說堅決維護"},{"start":537.295,"end":538.036,"text":"拜登強調多邊主義,但也力挺烏克蘭。"},{"start":554.689,"end":557.911,"text":"川普主張單邊主義,還是優先關注國內的議題?之前烏俄戰爭發生的時候,其實國人也是很關注美國對烏克蘭的態度。局長,我們這邊會不會擔心說,如果川普上任的話,"},{"start":576.724,"end":592.412,"text":"他可能對烏克蘭的這個軍援的態度就改變了那進而影響的會不會說如果以後如果說台海發生戰爭的時候然後川普這邊對台灣的援助是不是會像烏克蘭這樣子的消極可能會發生這種事情嗎"},{"start":593.291,"end":620.677,"text":"對我想就中華民國政府官員的立場來講我實在不便去對於美國的內政或選舉做太多的評論但是站在情報的角度我們可以針對各種的公情還有分析彙整一下來跟委員做個報告跟說明那就兩個總統的基本的外交路線確實有看到剛剛委員所指出來的一個差異性但是他們也有他們的趨同性特別是在社中的議題上對於中國的戰略的挑戰他們都高度的關注那另外也都對於台海的"},{"start":621.357,"end":621.477,"text":"對於臺灣的軍售案"},{"start":641.334,"end":657.904,"text":"不過這部分美國國會還是有一些辯論包括要不要再增加相關的增援的法案有一些辯論所以我想後續還是要看一下美國行政部門跟國會對於相關問題的討論的一個狀況才能夠下最後的一個定論他們有沒有一個比較新的政策路線出來"},{"start":659.019,"end":668.493,"text":"OK,所以局長的意思是說就算是川普他勝出其實我們也不需要多大的擔心畢竟他曾經也擔任過美國的總統那在那幾年我們也看出說其實他對台灣"},{"start":674.361,"end":674.481,"text":"謝謝局長 以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149617","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149617","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43009171b5701ffd01ea1cfe294bc3fbc1e0f8ba9b0039caa7a6e845366a77bfd4645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:27:55 - 09:39:56","影片長度":"00:12:01","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部列席就「國家運動科學中心如何協助運動選手，提升參加國際競賽成績之具體作為。」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":721,"end_time":"2024-03-11T09:39:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T09:27:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":281,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時28分）好，謝謝主席。有請次長。"],["主席：請林次長。"],["林次長騰蛟：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，這題我想我們就快速先來討論關於女足合約的事情，之前部長的回應是說要等到3月25號，不過我當天就說這是不合理的，部長有在質詢臺上交辦說要由次長您這邊來協助，那我可以問一下目前的進度嗎？"],["林次長騰蛟：跟委員報告，也謝謝委員關心這個案子，這個案子我們在上個禮拜五也有跟足協秘書長、副秘書長直接電話聯繫，所以有關合約的部分，今天會以雙掛號……"],["陳委員培瑜：今天會以雙掛號？"],["林次長騰蛟：寄還給選手。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。"],["林次長騰蛟：而且已經寄出。"],["陳委員培瑜：已經寄出？"],["林次長騰蛟：對，已經寄出。"],["陳委員培瑜：此刻不到9點半已經寄出？"],["林次長騰蛟：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝次長，那我們後續也會持續再協助、關心球員。我想確實這個事情的進度這樣看起來是大家目前為止都可以接受的，可是我想問一下次長，這件事情其實引起非常多的社會討論跟關注，您覺得體育署或者是足協有沒有需要就這件事情做一個進一步的調查報告？"],["林次長騰蛟：跟委員報告一下，當然我想簽訂合約對於選手權益的部分沒有去做適當的處理，這個部分確實是有檢討的空間啦！我想我們可以請體育署就這個案子的部分來進行一個書面的調查報告，提供給委員做一個參考。"],["陳委員培瑜：有沒有機會在2個月內？"],["林次長騰蛟：呃……"],["陳委員培瑜：署長點頭了，好，那我們就期待2個月後，也麻煩給所有教文委員會的委員一併參考。"],["林次長騰蛟：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。另外一個一樣是令人不開心的事情，不過好像只有1日新聞，並沒有引起太多的關注，可是我們看到中華奧會驚傳女性持刀自殘這個事情，但是體育署立刻澄清不是署內相關員工，這個事情次長應該也知道進度，我們就不多說。但是我想要問一下，我知道中華奧會跟體育署、教育部是夥伴關係，沒有上對下的監督關係，可是在單項協會或者是奧會這種不對等權力關係壓迫底下，難道沒有相關的職業安全衛生法或是勞動部相關的稽查可以協助、確認，中華奧會裡面這些工作同仁們的生命安全或者是相關職場倫理，又或是可以協助他們在職場上可以好好就職嗎？對這件事情，次長自己的看法是什麼？"],["林次長騰蛟：這是在體育大樓裡面發生的個別事件，針對這個事件，第一時間體育署鄭署長馬上請體育署人事室提供相關規定以及資源或者是一些需要的部分，提供給中華奧會來參考，也能夠注意不管是當事人或者中華奧會選手的心理輔導及心理調適，有事實的話，也提供申訴的管道。這個部分也會……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，我後來查了相關網站，因為你剛剛說署長也給予相關的支持。我們看一下足協的網站還有田協的網站，可是到了中華奧會就看不到相關資訊，有沒有機會如您剛剛說的更積極去處理這件事情，拿出態度跟作為？我有幾個訴求是不是可以請次長跟署長一併討論？第一個、體育署瞭解中華奧會有沒有機會建立職場性騷擾申訴制度，並且促請公告？我剛剛說了，我知道他們是夥伴關係，可是我相信大家對這件事情是有期待的。因為署長也在奧會擔任過相關的工作，這個部分有沒有機會促成？第二個、由教育部偕同勞動部參與清查，最近這兩年體育署跟各個單項協會有沒有這種職場上霸凌的吃案，或者是隱匿霸凌申訴卻沒有積極處理？因為在修完性平三法或是教育部的學校霸凌防制準則，大家都知道要有所作為，但是體育署或者教育部主管的單項協會，又或者是夥伴關係的奧會裡面，卻沒有相關的機制，我們覺得相當不合理。第三個、可不可以輔導各個協會跟建議奧會建立職場遭受不法侵害通報跟相關申訴流程，並且正式公告，讓所有相關的從業人員有一個部級的申訴管道，避免大家知道的這種體育界長期以來各式各樣不合理的職場現況？"],["林次長騰蛟：謝謝陳委員。針對陳委員的建議，包含中華奧會是不是建立相關的申訴制度並公告，我們會瞭解奧會現在的作法，同時也請奧會朝這個方面來處理。至於各單項協會有沒有吃案或隱匿霸凌，這個部分我們來瞭解、調查一下。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為教育部是主管機關嘛！第三個呢？"],["林次長騰蛟：針對奧會跟各協會建立申訴流程跟通報機制，這個部分我想也是滿好的，我們來配合辦理。事實上，目前如果是各單項協會或者中華奧會的員工有申訴到體育署，因為都在同一棟大樓裡面，體育署在第一時間都會請署裡，包含政風單位，進行瞭解跟協助、幫忙。"],["陳委員培瑜：剛剛次長說都按照我的要求來進行，可是我覺得第二項可能會有困難，所以之後我們會跟次長或是署長再次確定去清查過往相關的案件，這個是很龐大的工程。次長剛剛的允諾是會積極展開，我的辦公室也會積極瞭解跟協助各個單項協會。","再來就是這兩天有相關的爭議，其實一直都有相關的爭議，可是這兩天因為有公共政策網路參與平臺的連署，到我剛剛質詢前看到已經有兩千一百多位連署，是關於學生聯賽轉學競賽爭議。次長跟署長一定都很清楚，我就不說明，我們來看一下相關的案例。我們都先不要管競賽制度這件事情到底合不合理，可是我們看到大家提到裡面的狀況，包括加收費用、過度訓練、言語霸凌、不當管教，這些長期來存在體育訓練現場的困境，有沒有機會請教育部積極介入，讓它得到改善的機會？"],["林次長騰蛟：事實上，針對運動員在校園具有學生身分涉及到霸凌或者不當管教的相關問題，這個部分都有相關的法規在處理，也可以依循相關法規規定來辦理。至於剛剛委員提到，有關轉學……"],["陳委員培瑜：競賽的部分。"],["林次長騰蛟：這個問題目前體育署也都積極在處理，如果需要的話……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，因為關於競賽這個制度我覺得還要花很多時間討論，甚至開一場公聽會都不為過。可是我們有沒有機會要求？不管這個連署之後有沒有達標或者是進行相關制度的討論，因為目前我們收到消息是監察院要積極介入調查，可是針對已經在網路上自己公開分享的這些家長、學生的案例，體育署跟教育部可不可以主動進行調查？在保護當事人、匿名的情況下，讓大家對體育班制度或是對政府的監理功能不要再持續感到失望，這個部分可不可以請次長告訴我們有沒有可能？"],["林次長騰蛟：如果涉及到霸凌或者是不當管教到體育署來做一些申訴，這個部分本來就有校園性侵害性騷擾或性霸凌防治準則，都會依照這個準則，該揭露或者是不能……都會照相關規定來處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們都知道這個準則，次長，我們都知道。例如我們前陣子幫忙召開合球案，明明就有很多事情在校內已經一直發生，學員、球員都有發生，可是體育上對下的關係長期存在校園之間。如果孩子們都知道，家長也都知道，其實大家都知道，可是就不敢講！我在這邊要求次長可不可以主動介入調查，協助、保護這些球員跟家長？"],["林次長騰蛟：如果屬於在網路上面揭露的部分，我們第一時間掌握到訊息也會跟主管機關聯繫，因為學校的部分基本上權責還是在主管機關，我們會請主管機關在第一時間進行相關調查，也會持續關切後續發展的狀況。"],["陳委員培瑜：我覺得這樣聽起來還是對於選手的保障跟對家長來說，真的有點太過消極。這些案例都已經敢自己寫在網路上，代表大家積怨已久，尤其是孩子們在青春期的發展，身為青少球員、運動員，卻一直被這些大人的事件綁住，我真的覺得對孩子們很不公平。我剛剛說我們都不要討論到轉學、競賽這個制度，光是目前跳出來告訴大家，受到什麼樣的霸凌、受到什麼樣不當管教，甚至不當的收費，我覺得這些事情大家都敢站出來講了，次長可不可以再更積極地回應這件事情？"],["林次長騰蛟：我們會積極介入處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：你說更積極介入，有沒有機會開啟相關的調查？"],["林次長騰蛟：目前都有相關的調查處理機制，包含屬於地方或者是中央的權責，當然如果是屬於教育部直接督管的學校，我們會第一時間來處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，這個部分我們後續再討論。","關於運科的部分，我想要請問運科中心的執行長，這段文字你有沒有看過？我唸一下：「運動科學支援競技運動計畫的目的就是希望有更多優秀研究能量投入基層，並讓這些基層教練了解透過科學化訓練，可以提升效率，還可以避免過度訓練，減少運動員受傷風險」。這段話執行長熟不熟悉？"],["黃執行長啟煌：非常熟悉。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個是誰寫的文章，你知道嗎？"],["黃執行長啟煌：我寫的。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，是你寫的。我非常開心看到執行長有這樣的理念，為什麼我們要談基層運動這件事情？國體法修完之後這個3小時，我們就先不要討論這個3小時到底合不合理或是一刀切的問題。我們來看一下相關的過度訓練，107年只有一所，109年只有三所，到了110年只有兩所。說實話，就您從基層上來，執行長覺得這個數字合理嗎？"],["黃執行長啟煌：還有改善的空間。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，但是你覺得這個數字合理嗎？"],["黃執行長啟煌：不太好。"],["陳委員培瑜：你的意思是不太合理嘛！大家都知道一定有一些事情沒有爆發出來，但是我們回過來看可不可以要求運科中心？運科中心可不可以積極參與相關訓練準則訂定跟考核？尤其是考核，到底是怎麼考核出來的，我相信執行長一定心裡有數，可不可以由運科中心更加積極主導這件事情，並且把相關兒少訓練標準納入未來運科中心的研究方向？因為大家都知道，基層運動員才是國家運動發展的未來，對嗎？"],["黃執行長啟煌：完全認同委員的講法。現階段我們正在積極研擬青少年運動發展的建議指標，我們會結合運動醫學會、小兒科醫學會共同來制定這樣的準則，提供大家參考。"],["陳委員培瑜：我覺得大家聽到目前為止應該會覺得……關於考核的部分呢？考核部分有沒有機會由運科跟體育署更加積極的合作？"],["黃執行長啟煌：這可能政策上我們一起來努力，因為考核不是我們權責……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們再來討論，因為確實考核會看到那個數字出來到底合不合理。最後，有沒有機會由體育署設置必要檢舉窗口，一旦體育班過度訓練有查察機制，不要讓政府保護兒少的美意再度淪為空談，這個部分可不可以請署長或次長回應一下？由體育署主動積極建立檢舉窗口，又回到我剛剛講霸凌的問題或者是現場問題，但是關於過度訓練問題可不可以請署長或次長告訴我們有沒有機會？"],["鄭署長世忠：檢舉的窗口一直都在，不過當然需要宣導，這部分我們在校園的宣導再來強化。"],["陳委員培瑜：相關宣導資訊是不是也可以再給所有教育及文化委員會的委員一份，包含我的辦公室？讓大家更知道如果有過度訓練的問題，到底我們下一步可以怎麼做，好嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝署長、謝謝次長、謝謝主席。"],["林次長騰蛟：謝謝陳委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝陳培瑜委員。","下一位請萬美玲委員。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可不可以由運科中心更加積極主導這件事情並且把相關耳哨訓練標準納入未來運科中心的研究方向因為大家都知道基層運動員其實才是國家運動發展的未來對嗎完全認同委員的講法跟委員報告現階段我們正在積極研擬我們青少年運動發展的一個建議指標我們會結合運動醫學會"},{"start":666.442,"end":681.459,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":681.519,"end":682.599,"text":"關於這個過度訓練的問題可不可以請署長或次長告訴我們有沒有機會"},{"start":710.53,"end":720.067,"text":"接下來的討論資訊是否可以再給所有教育文化委員會．包含我們辦公室一份．讓大家更知道．如果有這個過度訓練的問題．到底我們下一步可以怎麼做．好嗎?好 謝謝署長 謝謝次長 謝謝主席"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}