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野生動物保育法交經濟委員審查17至19分富坤崎等局環島高速鐵路建設特別條例交經濟交通量委員審查國大6號東岩花蓮"},{"start":2444.88,"end":2465.717,"text":"建設特別條例交交通委員審查國家通訊傳播委員會組織法交司法及法治交通量委員審查民黨黨團體一層列20至22委員民略勤等居居勞動基準法交社會福利及衛生環境委員審查公益階壁者保護法交司法及法治委員審查23至24委員吳思耀等居居地方民意代表費用知己及村里長事務補助費補助條例交內政委員審查"},{"start":2467.859,"end":2492.608,"text":"新年基本法 教育及文化委員會審查25至26 環環街等一區 臺灣地區 大陸地區人民關係條例 加內政委員會審查行人交通安全措施條例 加內政交通量委員會審查臺灣民眾黨團體一層列27至29 臺灣民眾黨團一區預算法 中央銀行法 促進全國住宅使用特別稅條例 加財政委員會審查執行事項 對行政院長提出施政方針及施政報告 繼續諮詢 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2498.302,"end":2506.393,"text":"好先讀完畢我們就依這個登記順序請委員發言首先第一位登記第一位我們請黃委員正續上來發言"},{"start":2517.998,"end":2540.456,"text":"案由 針對第11屆第1會期第5次會議議程報告事項 質詢事項對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢 建請照議事日程草案及各黨團提議甄列報告事項通過提案人 民主進步黨 立法院黨團 王正旭"},{"start":2547.691,"end":2551.473,"text":"主席各位同仁這個我覺得我們這個立法委員提案修法他要有一定的素質和法學的這個基本概念我提出幾點當然大家討論一下"},{"start":2576.535,"end":2601.066,"text":"立法委員：范委員提出第54案有關立法委員行為法第7條修正草案的部分他說有關性騷擾不應該列入本來性騷擾或性別歧視本來就是不應當的本來就不應該做的事情事實上"},{"start":2601.826,"end":2631.161,"text":"不用特別來這個 業法來規定 比如說涉及委員的 比如說委員本來就不應該有一些私的上的 不應該 比如說王定宇委員一個月租8000塊 那個8000塊的事情這個趙天寧委員 這個中國小三的事情 或者是某位總召 大部稅業這事情 我們有需要明文的列經說 立法委員不能有大部稅 立法委員不能跟這個女童 女童人我是舉例 舉說我們不用繼續迷了 把各種"},{"start":2633.34,"end":2649.438,"text":"主席我在講話是不是你可以登記發言好嗎請尊重民主程序我們立法院本來就是受選民附託然後每一個4年我們就會選民再跟我們檢驗一次那我們需要繼續擬熱定這些就是不是就是"},{"start":2650.479,"end":2673.033,"text":"我剛說的那些例子,我們也要把王八千的條款釘進去,把大寶碎的柯條款釘進去,或者是要把趙天寧的這個我爛殺無辜的這個條款釘進去嗎?所以我覺得這個是不用特別提起,尤其因為性騷擾啊這個東西范委員剛發言在這個所有的場合裡頭常追是雙標的發言,所以我覺得這個由他提出來特別的不適合,但是我不因人廢言,但是還有"},{"start":2675.314,"end":2702.746,"text":"還有一件事情就是比如說比如說因為我們在立法院在以前常常有很多的議事衝突在這衝突過程中有時候就會難免有一些肢體的碰觸那沒有辦法避免比如本人上次被六位民進黨藍的立法委員抬走我也沒有提出性騷擾啊所以我覺得說這個東西很難去界定我們還是立法院還是以自立為原則所以建議說這個是大家提出的時候要多加考慮另外的改天再提好 謝謝"},{"start":2706.24,"end":2707.942,"text":"接下來請登記第三位范委員云發言"},{"start":2723,"end":2742.78,"text":"謝謝昭緯 我想針對剛剛陳玉珍委員的就是說發言我覺得陳玉珍委員對性別平等的概念真的是也不夠了解不知道是不是國民黨整個黨團都不了解我們講的是性別暴力 性騷 跟騷 性侵這個都是國際的CEDAW公約我們必須處理的"},{"start":2745.362,"end":2771.995,"text":"那他涉及到的是職場的工作平等那我發現我們在MeToo之後我們修了性別平等教育法性別工作平等法性騷法可是呢立委因為他不屬於機構性騷法處理的是機構要處理自己的員工那職場的話性別工作平等法是老闆必須要處理員工那校園的話是歸性的平等教育法立法委員剛好就是一個漏洞"},{"start":2772.435,"end":2797.018,"text":"所以不管是立委對立委的性騷案或者是立委對記者那就有發生我們國民黨團也沒有處理說調查沒有證據對我們記者的性騷還有立委對助理的性騷立委對立法員工性騷都沒有辦法處理你反而要去外面自己找律師那像我跟陳雪山委員的國民黨到現在都沒有還我公道就是"},{"start":2797.898,"end":2798.519,"text":"國民黨不僅提名法院認證成選生委員"},{"start":2815.47,"end":2816.151,"text":"兼任交通委員會召委"},{"start":2845.59,"end":2845.77,"text":"陳昱貞委員"},{"start":2868.406,"end":2896.327,"text":"黨下我一個已經有16個立委就是連署了一個正常的案件你今天可以去問婦女團體問其他的專家立法院這個漏洞是不是應該補下來立法院所有工作的相關的男性女性就是性別平等男性平等值得一個更被尊重性別平等的環境那我勸陳一貞也勸傅坤祺召委不要因為自己是性騷嫌疑犯"},{"start":2897.167,"end":2902.991,"text":"國民黨的包容那就擋下我這個這麼具有正當性的一個法案謝謝好 我們現在登記委員已經發言完畢那現在進行處理因為陳委員遇真並沒有提出書面的所以我們就是處理王正旭委員的提議那請問對這個王正旭委員的提案有沒有意義"},{"start":2927.898,"end":2942.564,"text":"沒有意義齁沒有意義我們就無異議通過那這個報告事項、質詢事項對行政院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢通過那接下來請宣讀人民請願案"},{"start":2945.458,"end":2946.438,"text":"請問各位委員有無異議沒有異議通過請問有無臨時動議沒有 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范委員提出第54案這個有關立法委員行為法的第7條的修正草案的這個部分他說有關這個什麼性騷擾這個不應該這個列入這個本來性騷擾或性別歧視本來就是不應當的所以我們不應該把它就是本來就不應該做的事情事實上"},{"start":46.317,"end":75.649,"text":"不用特別來這個 業法來規定 比如說涉及委員的 比如說委員本來就不應該有一些私得上的不應該 比如說王定宇委員一個月租8000塊 那個8000塊的事情這個趙天寧委員 這個中國小三的事情 或者是某位總召大部稅業這事情 我們有需要明文的列經說 立法委員不能有大部稅 立法委員不能跟這個女童 女童人我是舉例 舉說我們不用繼續迷了 把各種"},{"start":77.831,"end":93.926,"text":"主席我在講話是不是你可以登記發言好嗎請尊重民主程序我們立法院本來就是受選民附託然後每一個4年我們就會選民再跟我們檢驗一次那我們需要繼續明確定這些就是不是就是"},{"start":94.947,"end":118.902,"text":"我剛說的那些例子,我們也要把王八千的條款釘進去,把大毛碎的柯條款釘進去,或者是要把趙天林的這個我爛殺無辜的這個條款釘進去嗎?所以我覺得這個是不用特別提起,尤其因為性騷擾啊這個東西,范委員剛發言在這個所有的場合裡頭常追是雙標的發言,所以我覺得這個由他提出來特別的不適合,但是我不因人廢言,但是還有"},{"start":119.802,"end":147.234,"text":"還有一件事情就是比如說比如說因為我們在立法院在以前常常有很多的議事衝突在這衝突過程中有時候就會難免有一些肢體的碰觸沒有辦法避免比如本人上次被六位民進黨藍的立法委員抬走我也沒有提出性騷擾所以我覺得說這個東西很難去界定我們還是立法院還是以自立為原則所以建議說這個是大家提出的時候要多加考慮另外的改天再提好 謝謝"},{"start":152.174,"end":154.183,"text":"沒有截止,我們沒有截止"}]}},{"id":"149721","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149721","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a2938c0874a75249165b346064bb8e3e8f5dcf8ba9b0039caa7a6fae5102c225baa095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"12:11:52 - 12:12:26","影片長度":"00:00:34","會議時間":"2024-03-12T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第2次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第1會期第5次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期程序委員會第2次會議","type":"委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[27],"id":"委員會-11-1-27-2"},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":34,"end_time":"2024-03-12T12:12:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T12:11:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.472843750000001,"end":30.18659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.503,"end":29.964,"text":"案由 針對第11屆第1會期第5次會議議程報告事項 質詢事項對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢 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是說來這邊工作的外籍工還有就是我們專業人員有80萬人還有就是來這邊就是外僑生就是有10萬人左右所以這樣子的超過"},{"start":2031.025,"end":2054.527,"text":"兩百多人,這樣子的人數對臺灣帶來的就不只是經濟的發展,交易還有文化。 所以這個部分我們是不是說行政院院長這邊有沒有想說要設立一個部門專門去服務就是從國外人的這一群人,默默為我們臺灣的付出。"},{"start":2055.273,"end":2080.24,"text":"我們就是因為很尊重而且很重視新住民在經濟、政治、文化跟教育上的貢獻所以我剛才才講到在行政院就有一個協調會報協調會報是一個很慎重的事情是各部會做在一起那和這個世界上各國並沒有所謂的新住民的相關的政府機關也是把相關的業務讓內政或者是讓移民署"},{"start":2081.26,"end":2103.877,"text":"以及經濟部來一起合作,大部分的國家都這樣,但是也沒有像我們行政院有特別有這樣的一個協調的匯報。協調匯報是一個定期開會的一個組織也是相當重要的。那我們目前因為剛才我跟委員有報告過,因為所有的業務相關新移民相關的業務現在是運行的還蠻順暢。"},{"start":2107.039,"end":2108.721,"text":"對,我們希望就是要有一個因為現在目前我們有陸委會但是我們沒有一個部門一個部會成為"},{"start":2125.061,"end":2151.583,"text":"我們新住民的部會所以希望說我們的行政院長這邊可不可以說我們要成立一個就是新住民委員會再來就是我們在統籌一起來去服務我們內政部有的新住民發展基金培訓了10年我們一個就是說建立一個人才資料庫這人才資料庫已經發霉了因為沒有"},{"start":2152.424,"end":2171.479,"text":"沒有一個平台也沒有一個部門讓我們去發揮所以我希望的說我們院長這邊是不是說在近期內可以答應我們的新住民的需求要有一個新住民委員會來成立讓大家栽培人才留住人才讓人才發揮為了臺灣來去服務"},{"start":2175.54,"end":2201.393,"text":"我想這一個部分我是請內政部長先說明一下我再來補充一下那個委員會長。謝謝委員的建議你剛剛有特別提到好幾個部分包括新住民包括移工還有包括學生其實這幾個區塊他們所面臨的問題還有這個需求都有一點不太一樣剛剛院長有特別提到我們在這個行政院的一個協調會報裡面"},{"start":2203.086,"end":2226.128,"text":"我們大概把過去所這個新住民或者說包括移工等等這些朋友他們碰到的問題我們大概一個一個把它這個列出來比如說像過去大家提到最多來到臺灣之後要辦居住或者要辦戶口或者是要辦這個金融帳戶金融卡或者是銀行的帳戶等等"},{"start":2227.003,"end":2255.334,"text":"都碰到了很多的困難也沒那麼方便那不過現在透過行政院的這個會報我們把這些問題移出來一個一個把它串接在一起所以是一個部會協作的一個方式那當然這個我們新住民的這個基金我上任之後我也是跟同仁不斷的在溝通就是說新住民的這個基金我們要運用在哪些地方把錢用在刀口上我們現在正在做這樣的努力那委員剛剛提到說"},{"start":2256.189,"end":2259.45,"text":"所以你們都有說嘛就是不同的需求就是不同的解決但是問題就是資源就是沒有整合"},{"start":2283.626,"end":2299.565,"text":"﹗"},{"start":2299.705,"end":2314.445,"text":"新住民委員會二級機構就是要專門來去服務有需要哪一個地方我們就是轉接到才像說一個真正的服務變成國外來到臺灣不管是議員或者部門"},{"start":2315.026,"end":2337.449,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":2337.489,"end":2339.57,"text":"委員你的建議我有了解但是我要跟委員來做一個說明"},{"start":2365.468,"end":2384.595,"text":"實際上我們現在的二級機關的數目都已經滿了但是新住民的事情很重要不管是教育、勞動、衛福、文化等等還有經濟還有財政的部分都有那這確實它是各個部會都包含在裡面所以我們才會有所謂的新住民事務協調"},{"start":2386.049,"end":2386.069,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":2416.049,"end":2433.097,"text":"議員"},{"start":2433.237,"end":2450.203,"text":"新住民生了小孩越來越多就叫停止不要再生了已經滿了是這樣嗎?因為人多了我們就是人的需求我們現在就是我們要的就是說我們有需求我們要來去服務因為我們要去整合資源"},{"start":2450.863,"end":2476.608,"text":"還有給予機會大家才能會去真正的是落實的服務對不對我們要有一個平台要互助共好嘛對不能說一直說顛簾一種全部的預算來栽培栽培人才但是沒有給予機會怎麼留才呢怎麼真正的去為台灣付出呢所以我們希望說我們的院長要來成立一個新住民委員會這個是"},{"start":2478.448,"end":2500.06,"text":"整合資源讓更多的人去發揮也更多的是說你栽培人才花那麼多錢但是沒有一個平台讓大家去發揮所以我們希望的是說有一個平台有一個部會來去讓新住民去服務也讓各個機構還有外國人來到台灣"},{"start":2500.72,"end":2529.142,"text":"可以有一個地方真的是照顧到讓全世界人看到說我們只要來臺灣投資我們移居臺灣我們就是找這個部會就可以了不用說再求助我們再找很多的部會剛才你們有講嘛各部會討論只是討論而已結果是怎麼樣誰來決定誰來服務所以我們希望就是說行政院這邊院長答應我們說"},{"start":2530.163,"end":2546.922,"text":"要成立一個新住民委員會讓我們的有一個新住民基本法就是我們原住民基本法也是最近幾年才去成立的如果有一個部門這樣去服務的話我們是政府的左右手也真的是解決問題"},{"start":2550.102,"end":2569.928,"text":"委員我想回答你兩個問題第一個就是說二級機關已經滿了就是說按照行政院的組織法裡面我們的部會的數目到現在都已經是滿了除非我們要修行政院相關的這個組織法才能夠做這個是滿額的意思是這樣那第二個呢在政務的推動上匯報的"},{"start":2572.089,"end":2593.755,"text":"的聯繫匯報的聯繫的工作呢實際上比單一部會要來還舉一個例子比如說原民會想要做什麼事情他這個事情如果他單獨的部會要做的時候他需要去協調經濟部還有內政部教育部等等不同的部會那這個時候他一個人來進行一個部會來進行反而不容易做而需要有一個好的匯報來"},{"start":2596.096,"end":2616.958,"text":"來一起來進行那這個就是我們剛才講的如果我們各部會都在一個新住民的這一個事務協調會報裡面來做的話那你剛才說我們做了一個決定以後呢做完決定以後教育部該好好培育人才然後勞動部該好好的在這個聘用這些人才然後呢"},{"start":2618.703,"end":2620.804,"text":"是沒錯,跨部會是要去協調但是有要單一部會來去"},{"start":2636.731,"end":2658.281,"text":"執行,這個是對嗎?對不對,就像我們原住民委員會,他也是跟大家協調,但是他是當一個部會來去執行,是對的嘛,是不是?你的意思是說是應該是這樣,所以我們現在要的是應該是這樣啊,所以就是說我們要協調各部會,資源整合,在最後就是"},{"start":2658.541,"end":2681.698,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":2682.258,"end":2710.195,"text":"來去協助這樣才不會說資源重疊還有個案一個個案很多部門去服務所以我們看到的是這樣所以謝謝我們的院長這個部分就是希望你答應我們我們也共同來去努力就是這裡是臺灣的民眾跟政府的最好溝通的橋樑所以我們是代表我們的民眾來跟我們部院去要求去"},{"start":2710.697,"end":2711.259,"text":"請說去協助。還有第二個問題"},{"start":2715.06,"end":2743.9,"text":"因為時間有限就有問題說關於就是警察的權利因為警察是不是人民保姆是對所以人民保姆去保護我們全國的人民是不是要讓他們就是有地方就是住還有睡好這樣他還有精力去幫助大家去保護我們的人民但是目前為止全國有很多就是我們的警察的住宿的話"},{"start":2744.693,"end":2747.56,"text":"都沒有就是讓大家就是"},{"start":2749.076,"end":2749.096,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":2789.195,"end":2807.35,"text":"蔓委員建議好不好,因為時間的關係能不能請內政部把相關的資料用書面送給您參考好嗎?因為時間已經到了好不好?好,謝謝蔓委員與真的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢,謝謝接下來我們請登記第二號范雲委員質詢"},{"start":2824.451,"end":2846.379,"text":"院長早安,有請陳院長。再請陳院長備刑。院長早安,那今天的主題是如何建構一個真正平等沒有歧視的社會。下頁。"},{"start":2850.86,"end":2877.683,"text":"首先我要謝謝院長大仁哥您真的是溫暖內閣我看到您已經有一個很重要的貢獻就是上次記得我總質詢的時候讓無家者在我們的議場現身您看到之後我們也討論了相關的問題您當時就立刻承諾我們的社會救助法真的是需要好好的修衛福部也承諾"},{"start":2878.263,"end":2901.791,"text":"在今年5月會提出,那雖然您一直不願意繼續就是繼續擔任我們的院長,但我相信希望也能在您卸任前能夠提出,那我想這是一個非常重要的溫暖的法案,因為它會接住我們的貧窮人口,因為過去設下了太多重重障礙,所以我謝謝大仁哥,那我們一起打造這個溫暖的"},{"start":2903.231,"end":2903.852,"text":"我們都不捨"},{"start":2933.112,"end":2950.053,"text":"我去年認識他所以非常的敬佩他因為很多人說我想他也是台灣的禍金他擁有美國的雙重的法律會計他其實有機會我聽到他母親說跟他的同學一樣在世界銀行工作"},{"start":2950.533,"end":2972.204,"text":"但是他選擇回臺灣就是希望為臺灣的人權努力雖然我們在喊病的醫療資源無障礙環境其實都不如國外那下一頁那他離開之後我們有看到蔡總統特別給他包中令蔡總統說他離世是台灣社會的巨大損失"},{"start":2972.824,"end":2990.026,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":2990.716,"end":3010.308,"text":"行政院 其實在下一頁 包括我們立法委員 這是我組成的我們超過10位 有12位為下一代而戰的國會連線 那我們在開記者會前一天突然知道他離世 那我們也非常的難過 那也說就是說我們會記住他是我們的"},{"start":3010.828,"end":3011.268,"text":"下一頁下一頁"},{"start":3030.505,"end":3043.857,"text":"這邊我想放一個俊翰律師自己講的59秒的影像讓他繼續在我們這現身有這樣的機會就是要好好把握他們的掌握的力量"},{"start":3044.853,"end":3072.9,"text":"這樣的採訪對陳俊漢來說的一場失利更何況是遠赴美國求學了但在異國他獲得前所未有的尊重與友善對待讓原本在臺灣學公司法、商業證券法一小時能賺進幾萬塊收入的他決定走向不同的路我一路以來本來就有一直在爭取這一些就自己本來就在臺灣的教育環境之下其實每一關都是靠自己去努力一個一個突破所以是"},{"start":3073.96,"end":3089.602,"text":"一接觸到國外的那種制度真的就是會覺得衝擊很大,感觸很深。會覺得好像國外真的是把那個障礙者當成人看待,然後我們在這邊好像是那個第三世界的國家。"},{"start":3091.286,"end":3105.909,"text":"我想院長看了這段話應該會跟我一樣覺得很羞愧他說他在國外讀書的經驗發現國外真的是把障礙者當人看然後回想我們在臺灣好像是第三世界國家"},{"start":3106.83,"end":3126.767,"text":"我想今天就是他放棄了國外的工作機會回到對他個人很不利的環境所以我們到底如何才能夠讓臺灣脫離障礙者的第三世界國家不把障礙者當人看下一頁我想我們就回來看臺灣有多少障礙者不知道院長知不知道"},{"start":3133.681,"end":3145.454,"text":"一句政府的統計有120萬那這個不包括就是像我母親他是因為老化出門要用輪椅所以輪椅的這種老化失能者沒有包括在裡面就120萬"},{"start":3146.855,"end":3167.714,"text":"一百二十萬如果他有一個家庭一個障礙者有三個家人或者三點五個好了其實全國就有五百萬個超過五百萬個身障者及其家屬還不包括像我母親這樣子的狀況我們看到她會遇到怎麼樣的狀況下一頁如果她是懷孕生產女性的話"},{"start":3168.614,"end":3183.69,"text":"這邊就是我這邊這個照片是我親自訪問的身障媽媽陳清琦他是生命教育學院的院長常常在全國用生命教育演講他呢先生是市長那他生了小孩的時候那他必須"},{"start":3185.191,"end":3207.997,"text":"從新莊坐公車去基隆只是為了產檢你可以想像那個有多辛苦因為整個新北沒有一個他能夠有一個調整的一個產檯那他順利生下平安健康的小孩那整個生產的過程自己要洗澡幫孩子洗澡先生視障其實會非常大的工程"},{"start":3208.737,"end":3237.697,"text":"那所以懷孕期間沒有個人助理沒有更多的個人助理都沒有辦法安心生產你就可以看到女性的身份在懷孕生產期間會遇到的問題下一個我們看到俊翰我們知道他在求學的時間表現優異可是俊翰遇到的情況是什麼他參加大學考試每科只能延長20分鐘而且他必須要一直爭取極力爭取後來才能夠口述代筆"},{"start":3238.638,"end":3254.947,"text":"可是他在美國考律師執照遇到的是考務中心主動到他下他的飯店跟他報告說明安排他到考場而且只要他簽署一張不會洩題就讓他前一天開始考試"},{"start":3255.888,"end":3269.807,"text":"因為呢,多給他一天考試,別人考兩天,他考三天。 那這樣子能夠讓他有充分的時間完成深論題。 俊翰律師說他當時考大學的時候,其實他每題都會寫,可是時間不夠。 所以這是一個"},{"start":3272.932,"end":3288.111,"text":"很大的問題他讀書期間郡安律師也說他必須要自己拜託麻煩同學做筆記可是他到哈佛大學的時候校方請他提早報告為他專門開會召集各部門校方更聘請"},{"start":3288.952,"end":3317.292,"text":"替俊翰做筆記的同學而且全程保密兼顧學生的隱私。我想從這兩個例子那特別是俊翰律師的難怪他會認為臺灣是第三世界國家。下一頁我想這邊也提醒院長的是身心障礙者其實是多重身份的他不是只有一個身障者身份就像這邊剛剛講的女性會遇到生產甚至要到外縣市大醫院因為產台的問題"},{"start":3318.473,"end":3336.123,"text":"原住民呢他們也跟我澄清他們有雙重弱勢身份可是我們的國家要求他二選一所以他有時候經常不能夠確定哪一個身份對他是比較好的選擇經濟弱勢的話政府有補助輔具可是政府卻不補助維修"},{"start":3336.903,"end":3337.584,"text":"這是我們台灣的處境。下一頁。"},{"start":3361.903,"end":3372.569,"text":"我想請問院長您覺得我們兩位現在跟未來的總統都說要繼承陳俊漢律師的遺志,我們如何可以繼承他的遺志?"},{"start":3373.206,"end":3401.994,"text":"我想這個CRPD這一個法案實際上在臺灣已經國內法化而且對陸陸續續的按照這樣的一個精神來做但是就如同委員你所提的我們有很多地方還需要再加強還需要再精進的地方那我們會往這個方向來努力那包括了剛才你講的救學救養還有就業的這些部分都需要有加強的地方"},{"start":3402.714,"end":3431.788,"text":"下一頁謝謝院長所以其實您真的非常關心這個議題您已經知道答案了答案就是我們的身心障礙者權益保障法這次修法因為十幾年沒有修了真的必須要符合我們自己已經簽署掛在衛福部網站上都可以看到細節的身心障礙者就是說權利公約這個CRPD的公約那下一頁那我想請問院長不知道您知不知道身權法"},{"start":3432.188,"end":3458.381,"text":"要怎麼修才能夠符合CRPD的國際公約呢?因為我們上一屆修到一半後來就停下來了因為彼此的落差很大那這一次如果我們說要符合CRPD的話那應該要怎麼做這個法要怎麼修才能符合呢?我想有兩個很重要的部分第一個就是由衛福部來收集我們民間還有我們立法院的一些意見第二個我們有CRPD的國際"},{"start":3459.581,"end":3471.268,"text":"的這個專家學者的審查他也提供了很多寶貴的意見那我們看看國外的意見是怎麼樣我們一起來修那這因為他蠻細節的不過我想聆聽看看這一個委員寶貴的意見"},{"start":3473.426,"end":3489.764,"text":"謝謝院長您剛講的也都對是講程序上這麼做那我們來看實質下一頁他其實以我的整理有五個重點第一個障礙者要能為自己做決定那因為要落實如果沒有我的參與不要為我做決定"},{"start":3490.365,"end":3517.096,"text":"因為只有障礙者才知道他的需求是什麼那當時我們修法的爭議我的版本相關的機制要有二分之一障礙者的代表那當時至少衛福部聽起來沒有被說服第二個個人助理服務時數要充足那最近我也聽到陳媽媽講譬如說俊翰他吃飯他可能是需要兩小時可是吃飯的這個助理的時數只能給他半小時"},{"start":3517.916,"end":3539.467,"text":"所以他算是要用一個半小時要拿他的個人助理其他的時數來用那這個其實就是對家屬來講我們都看到陳媽媽已經幾乎據說全天候的在照顧他了連喘息的空間都沒有所以個人助理服務的時數也就是我想院長很了解我們要不要拿出資源來協助的問題"},{"start":3540.507,"end":3558.536,"text":"第三、障礙者要能夠在地自立生活,所以相關的環境很重要,而不是讓它機構化,機構不應該是唯一的選項。第四、很多障礙者跟我陳情,臺灣的高科技能力可以做到很好的輔具,可是都是出口。"},{"start":3559.036,"end":3575.899,"text":"因為臺灣本地沒有市場就是因為政府就是說補助經費太少所以呢他們甚至在臺灣買不到就是在臺灣的廠商生產的高科技的輔具所以高科技輔具的提供到我剛講的"},{"start":3576.92,"end":3594.788,"text":"你補助了輔具可是卻沒有補助維修這也是不應該的最後一個就是我所講的我們所有相關的機制應該要看到多重的弱勢者而不是讓他們自己在不同的系統之間被踢皮球甚至被迫做選擇"},{"start":3595.788,"end":3623.076,"text":"那這五點就是也是下一頁也是我們最近為下一代而戰我們希望跟您一起提出的集體訴求就是一定要這次行政院的版本本身一定要符合CRPD的國際公約因為上一次修法已經是17年前了那我們2017年簽署CRPD國際公約之後本來就應該全面的檢視"},{"start":3623.916,"end":3649.753,"text":"﹗"},{"start":3649.773,"end":3676.284,"text":"我想這個我們一定會努力的來請這個衛福部收集相關的意見還有民間修法的建議來盡快提出修法的這個版本那更重要的我也希望在這個整個的這個制定的這個過程當中在大院也能夠得到我們朝野黨團大家的協助真的好好來幫助所有需要幫助的這些身心障礙者我想這是政府的責任我們責無旁貸"},{"start":3677.028,"end":3691.712,"text":"而一定會努力來盡快的來提出這個修法。好,謝謝院長。所以您承諾我們行政院會提出符合CRPD的生權法。謝謝院長,真的是溫暖內閣。那我也想問時間點,因為其實我們上一屆"},{"start":3694.093,"end":3695.053,"text":"我們來試試看。我們全力以赴。"},{"start":3724.171,"end":3726.073,"text":"謝謝發言委員謝謝陳院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第三位"},{"start":3753.782,"end":3755.123,"text":"陳委員欲爭質詢陳委員早 恭喜陳委員當選連任"},{"start":3780.55,"end":3796.336,"text":"謝謝院長,歡迎再到金門跟我們指導。這個院長您說過您扶國立民的政策不會因為是看守內閣就不續推嘛。是。所以呢我們下面幾件事情我們也請院長繼續來很快的來協助我們金門地區。好,我來聆聽。"},{"start":3797.645,"end":3813.571,"text":"今年的大紅之家事實上床位非常的擁擠因為金門老齡人口老齡化非常的嚴重所以我們大紅之家事實上已經是一床籃球一位籃球大概都要等很久那之前在選前的時候本期曾經就是"},{"start":3816.217,"end":3832.596,"text":"警政署在金門有一個警官會館,使用率非常低,那時候我們有去辦過會刊,後來要把金門的警官會館轉型成大同之家的二館,讓我們的老年人可以及早的進駐。"},{"start":3834.424,"end":3858.793,"text":"這個後來我在內政委員會也質詢過我們林部長。那這個我知道這個進度,部長那時候說這要等金門憲政委員簽公文上來的時候才會往下辦理。那我知道就有那個金門憲政委員已經把相關的計畫送上來了。然後警政署署長那邊也已經同意了。現在公文是到這個林部長的手上齁。那這個部長這邊是,這個案子是到你手上覺醒就可以了嗎?還是說還要到我們院長這裡?"},{"start":3861.158,"end":3887.103,"text":"部長您先回答一下這個案子還沒有到我桌上,不過我詢問最新的一個資訊是已經送到部裡面了,我們會盡快簽辦。那到您這邊就可以了嗎?這個應該是到部就可以了,到部就可以了。到部長就可以了,然後部長您這一點會同意嗎?就是把我們警官會館,警政署已經同意了,變成我們大鴻之家的惡館,我們還是留一些空間給警政署使用還是有了?"},{"start":3888.052,"end":3914.447,"text":"我想這一部分如果這個警政署跟金門縣政府已經協調好我想原則上我們會來支持不過就是跟委員報告後續的預算的部分大家再來討論這個後面怎麼來整建各方面好謝謝那我們把景觀會館就轉型成大同之家二館讓這個金門的老年人可以及早的入住大同之家對好謝謝院長謝謝院長支持預算也要支持好"},{"start":3915.407,"end":3935.84,"text":"接著這個國家公園的部分,106年金門國家公園的範圍佔了金門全島的大概四分之一。那這個民眾對這個因為國家公園是當然幫我們做得很好,保存建設也很好,但是也有很多的限制,造成居民的不便。不過我們金門一直希望比照這個澎湖跟馬祖做成這個風景管理區。"},{"start":3936.5,"end":3938.221,"text":"目前為止已經進行7年了,不知道這個進度現在如何?"},{"start":3938.221,"end":3938.241,"text":"這個部長"},{"start":3953.391,"end":3971.365,"text":"是,這個在2月份的時候,大概民眾跟公民團體提出來的陳情意見大概有112件。目前這個已經在修正相關的一個書圖的一個草案,那預計是大概3月中左右。那中就現在?對。"},{"start":3972.543,"end":3973.684,"text":"總共大概要多久的時間呢?"},{"start":3990.222,"end":4003.11,"text":"就看這個審議的結果,因為案子蠻多的,它有112件。這個請禁訴,已經進行7年了,希望520之前可以完成嗎?因為有100多件。效率好一點。我們加強啦。"},{"start":4007.193,"end":4007.413,"text":"毛孟靜"},{"start":4026.841,"end":4027.522,"text":"不管在行政方面或是預算方面都請支持"},{"start":4052.905,"end":4081.94,"text":"我們樂觀其成我們也會來協辦不過也請委員就是比如說包括像體育部體育署還有包括像這個運動基金觀光署院長這邊也是幫忙交代體育署還有交通部這邊也幫忙預算來協調我們可以來參與協辦預算的部分我們除了協辦以外我們也需要你們的經費移除我們很多事情金門縣政府都是自己比較獨立打拚大家中央都一直覺得金門縣政府的這個"},{"start":4082.7,"end":4082.82,"text":"﹚發言委員："},{"start":4098.69,"end":4114.553,"text":"我敢說我對這件事情的了解算是全面性的,我不只是只有跟聽我們官員或者是媒體報導,我事實上當面跟所有的單位都做過,包括海巡執法的當事人,包括"},{"start":4115.234,"end":4143.473,"text":"剛好做驗屍法醫也是我的朋友所有的還有對岸的家屬對岸的這個從國台辦到這個全州市台辦這個各個單位我都聊過了所以我想我對這件事情比較有全面性的這個了解我想請問這個院長最近到今天為止因為當然第一階段到一個段落了暫時就停下來但是已經變成一個國際的事件然後而且看起來對兩岸的這個局勢就有這個就變成是一種"},{"start":4145.063,"end":4147.044,"text":"院長,您知道以前有一個金門協議嗎?1990年,您知道這件事嗎?"},{"start":4155.984,"end":4169.335,"text":"我知道有這樣的一個基本協議,但是我在這裡跟委員說明一下這個金夏海域的這個事件,實際上我們海巡署就是為了要確保這個漁民的潛意我現在只有兩個問題要問,第一個金夏協議,我要問兩個問題,第一個就是說往下是要怎麼處理?"},{"start":4175.52,"end":4177.24,"text":"我講金門快艇案就像這裡講的嘛就是一定要等到我們這一個"},{"start":4201.407,"end":4228.761,"text":"但是法務部的速度,法務部院長,你有沒有覺得法務部大概多久可以把這個事情調查出一個大概一個初步的段落?因為今天法務部﹖您啊,您啊,你是院長,法務部沒有跟您啊。我是當然是越快越好。越快越好,比如說多久?一個月、兩個月、三個月?這個司法,我們尊重司法偵辦的時間。當然尊重司法,但是有這個涉及這麼大的國安事件的總要一個時間嘛,壓一個時間就好了。你要多久你覺得比較合理的?"},{"start":4229.521,"end":4247.561,"text":"五二零之前總是可以吧?現在都已經三月了。我們盡快,我們盡快來辦。所以你也不敢承諾嗎?這是一種決心的表現。這個我們要尊重司法。沒有尊重司法,但是你要給他時間來個案子辦得好。這種案子也不是很複雜。"},{"start":4248.542,"end":4258.733,"text":"那現在的情況就是說還需要一些海事鑑定啊等等的判斷嗎?那這些東西都應該要加快嘛那也不能一件事情遙遙無期嘛影響到整體的儀式發展嘛那我先問第一個問題那個院長您知道這個進門協議嗎?"},{"start":4266.514,"end":4293.471,"text":"院長知不知道?我知道,但是我不曉得你不知道,陸委會知道吧?陸委會知道,院長不了解,如果要處理兩岸事務,不知道以前跟過去的事情就很難處理現在跟未來的事情。今天協議,其實當初,那我想說,我請問陸委會好了,是不是用這個模式,下去是用這個模式,用兩岸這個紅十字會這個模式,民間的這個模式來往下處理這件事情,這樣是不是會整個事件"},{"start":4294.851,"end":4323.34,"text":"委員的提案當然是一個可以選擇的項目那委員大家也知道1990年金門協議之後呢其實兩岸簽訂了很多的協議各部會都有很多的合作我現在是在指這一件事 包括供答犯罪啦或者是其他各部門的協議海巡署跟他們也有一些協議主委謝謝不用在這邊幫院長上課我是想請問你下去解決這個事情是不是用這個方式民間的方式來紅十字會對紅十字會模式是不是一個比較好的模式海委會要回答嗎"},{"start":4324.861,"end":4343.696,"text":"報告委員我們了解過去海基會與金門地區的紅十字會也好或者是縣政府也好或者是在地的人士也好有很多合作的機會然後解決了很多的問題那這一次的案件主要是因為相當程度有升高為政治性的"},{"start":4345.317,"end":4348.819,"text":"第二,我要問的比較重要,因為時間快到。 這個下去海巡弟兄如何執行?"},{"start":4348.819,"end":4350.48,"text":"那我們看到最近比較,大家比較看到的是最近這個劉武殿的這個事件。"},{"start":4371.753,"end":4393.926,"text":"現在這個航道,大陸的清淨船已經進入我國的淨線制水域,在那個橘色那個框框有沒有,那個橘色是淨線制水域,那個橘色那個是大陸的清淨船,就這個劉武甸這個水道上面,它已經經過從我們的列嶼跟大海膽中間經過,那你們知道這件事嗎?以後海巡人員遇到這樣的事情第一線要怎麼執法?"},{"start":4395.307,"end":4412.694,"text":"清淤的範圍是在廈門的海域,不是在我們的近縣制海域。他的船隻已經進入我們的近縣制水域作業了。清淤之後,他航行未滯留經過近縣制水域,我們都有派船變航。大陸船可不可以進入我們的近縣制水域?做清淤?"},{"start":4412.694,"end":4414.515,"text":"不可以啊。 不可以,誰告訴你不可以?"},{"start":4418.042,"end":4423.423,"text":"這是根據兩岸人民關係條例的根據交通部104年12月14號交行制有一個公告在這裡104年12月17號開始實施運送客貨輪迫經過金銜之水進入大陸地區廈門港是被允許的"},{"start":4444.875,"end":4444.995,"text":"主席"},{"start":4467.333,"end":4483.32,"text":"在陸委會沒有充分的告知其他的相關部會的很多法律規定以後,在第一線執行的海巡練員非常的辛苦。他們不知道有一些規定是可以的,有一些可能是不行的。那你陸委會很了解這個,你知道這個東西嗎?我知道。你知道了齁?所以你知道了齁?"},{"start":4484.701,"end":4485.381,"text":"我現在問的是因為第一線海巡人員要執法非常辛苦"},{"start":4509.412,"end":4528.431,"text":"他們到底要怎麼執法,什麼是可以的什麼是不可以的,應該是驅離啊,帶回來還是趕走還是怎麼樣,這個很難執法,因為對法令有一些舊的東西很多齁,過去的東西不熟悉嘛,不熟悉就是,院長我從這次的這個事件中我發現你們跨部位的協商市場非常弱的。"},{"start":4528.951,"end":4545.957,"text":"您們這個一定要加強尤其面對這麼重要的尤其有關兩岸關係的事情的時候有很多過去我們跟大陸累積很多的善意然後事實上有很多相關的法律規定喔事實上是可以解決很多問題的包括例子包括怎麼樣去溝通這些都是可以解決問題的有時候不一定要走到那麼劍拔弩張那個地步這麼驚嚇所謂的小事"},{"start":4554.48,"end":4554.5,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":4572.478,"end":4574.841,"text":"委員其實委員大家也知道這個其實原來已經談得到一定的程度有的有共識有的"},{"start":4593.402,"end":4595.243,"text":"那委員你怎麼看得到呢?那這談判是秘密的啦"},{"start":4622.379,"end":4622.939,"text":"對談是機密的"},{"start":4641.494,"end":4642.034,"text":"主委,這個陸客開放到金門啊?"},{"start":4671.201,"end":4675.262,"text":"謝謝陳委員玉珍的質詢也謝謝陳院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第四位謝委員榮介質詢"},{"start":4714.27,"end":4742.668,"text":"委員長我請那個陳院長麻煩再請陳院長備選陳院長早早早早很危險喔,一隻要把你...因為今天台中的事件發生後我們的特輪剛好就延宕了大概兩個禮拜都在討論那個西部特輪的事情是"},{"start":4744.441,"end":4762.987,"text":"結果事情你也知道我們台灣人說的,瞭解的勝利沒人做,抬頭的勝利有人做。 有博弈嘛。所以剛才發聲蘇丹鴻,當然你的態度是很清楚,我也知道你看事情很苛刻,不然整棟一些委員在這裡你都變成配合了。"},{"start":4770.205,"end":4781.372,"text":"你怎麼會讓所有台灣人覺得蓋生檢驗到的時候應該給當事人有15天的緩衝期。在那個時候,驗出蘇丹洪的時候,你看看我們就多吃15天的蘇丹洪。沒有沒有,這回事不太好。這回事就是這樣,因為什麼?冬季時你這麼做,我表的時候,做生意"},{"start":4799.964,"end":4818.178,"text":"臨檢處行政院長就說這個單位要聘人申訴申訴15天啊。你這樣講完全不對,這婚姻管政府,婚姻管政府查出來以後馬上就有通報,馬上就叫他下架,不能混為一談。我問你,臨檢處行政院院長是不是應該要即時公佈,你也說是嘛。"},{"start":4827.39,"end":4828.215,"text":"你那時候是這樣跟我說的嗎?"},{"start":4830.185,"end":4855.291,"text":"你不會記住嗎?這兩...我...現在你說是不透露...我正在問你,你覺得不會記住嗎?我問你,臨檢出,來賀多邦以前所提出是臨檢出,但是地方檢驗機關若是檢到,是不是要即時公佈?你告訴我是嗎?若是正確的時候,是。我告訴你,所有的那個...你不會記住,好來。"},{"start":4858.212,"end":4873.035,"text":"但是你們最後的調查報告出來,也沒有說是否涉及到污染嗎?這樣他為什麼沒有進行?但是,那個報告,那個報告裡面, 但是你們當時是怎樣?你們當時是強烈在講,我現在不是要跟你講過去的事情,那已經是大熱嘛,你現在看到這個蘇丹紅的東西這麼嚴重,你就知道,我請教你,因為我要你去調查過去有這個案例沒有?"},{"start":4886.101,"end":4897.334,"text":"海關檢到要求退官的時候,若沒有退官,有考決,變贏一個,變更名稱：有退官："},{"start":4902.034,"end":4913.578,"text":"這個蘇丹紅這件事,如果有這個辣椒粉,我怕喝到蘇丹紅,你就要退關。退關... 你的補充說什麼?你的補充說,還知道你們大家都很愛吃香的,我感覺你的補充因為這個事情,很多人都親眼分開。"},{"start":4925.302,"end":4926.503,"text":"我現在要請教你"},{"start":4948.638,"end":4950.619,"text":"新聞證的事情你知道嗎?"},{"start":4950.619,"end":4953.02,"text":"我知道你說電子身份證嗎?"},{"start":4953.02,"end":4970.33,"text":"是的,好,這件事是很嚴重的。 您補充給我看,請教理一下,來。 麻煩你。 一定有一些細節我不知道了解不了解。 有啦,這我知道有這個... 現在我們大家聽到的,理解到就是說我們要賠償2.8億。"},{"start":4974.652,"end":4985.579,"text":"您對國防發布的不是賠償,是降低損失。但是議長我請教,我本身所接觸到的不是2.8億。您還有付一條4月3日給人家?你知不知道?委員你說4月3日是多一百萬。所以議長你不知道,那我請教你,沒錯嗎?"},{"start":5002.725,"end":5026.915,"text":"二、二點八億有沒有包括那些機器。 機器是現在已經存在的。 機器存在,沒有啦,機器存在開多少錢,你給我講一下。 機器存在因為它是已經支付出去,已經是架構機器。 你把副機器的錢連外國,本來我們在講的全部十億多的就是包括機器喔。"},{"start":5028.456,"end":5049.67,"text":"你現在說我們只降到2.8億,讓我們感覺好像你很會做事啊,只有2.8億就解決了啊。 機器是資產啊。 資產,來我告訴你,你的機器,等到我們要重新發行數位身份證的時候,這機器可不可以用錢?"},{"start":5051.155,"end":5060.86,"text":"這些機器從它進口之後都全部都是依照我們相關的一個規定在做運作。它不使用之後其實就是封存。"},{"start":5078.919,"end":5090.182,"text":"所以,我們討論的時候,全部會有10億多嘛。 啊你現在還要去去,我們不會領錢,我們不會出來說只有2.8億。 你讓所有的台灣人,只要說10億多,你喬到2.8億,很高,很高,可以出國比賽。 不是這樣。 如果用這種手法啦齁,你要公開跟台灣人說嘛。"},{"start":5103.235,"end":5132.355,"text":"這條我們就是要整個那機器來我請教你我講一個好不好機器好來好委員是這樣如果我們要用數位ID的時候我們就要有那個機器嘛要有那個卡片的材料當然現在因為這個數位數位身份證還沒有要實施但是這個機器含這個材料還可以用在其他的用具你就這樣就對了嘛對他還有其他使用用具你說最可恨的嘛是啊我跟你說"},{"start":5134.375,"end":5140.077,"text":"這台機器要怎麼保用?你告訴我,要放在哪裡?這台機器現在是在...放在哪裡?這台機器要開機嗎?不然會破機嗎?"},{"start":5157.469,"end":5159.95,"text":"因為當時所有的團體各界都說有各自問題 這不是你的角色我知道"},{"start":5188.317,"end":5201.704,"text":"隱私問題啦,隱私問題。 有這個問題拿走下去,拿走下去。 因為這是一百十年的時候的決定暫緩啦,對啦。 我說的,一百十年後你們好朋友,老兄弟啊,現在的老總統啊,人怕翻車嘛,都遇到事情要面對。"},{"start":5212.998,"end":5222.529,"text":"這就叫做標準的吃緊都破碗,你有感覺嗎?沒有啦,當初在那個溝通的規定中間...不過不管啦,溝通的規定現在出來,要了解這個事情,不對嗎?他還要審視4月3日?"},{"start":5229.042,"end":5230.923,"text":"是不是負了4.3億啦?"},{"start":5230.923,"end":5237.026,"text":"各位委員報告一下喔,因為這一個政策其實是一個持續性,從民國101年的時候開始回報。沒有,剛剛委員已經講過了,因為這個機器是採購,採購進來的。 採購多少錢嘛?你怎麼這樣咧?為什麼不能講咧?"},{"start":5237.026,"end":5237.446,"text":"有保密條款嗎?"},{"start":5237.446,"end":5239.407,"text":"沒有,委員剛剛已經講過了啊。 沒有,我講的對不對啊?"},{"start":5258.173,"end":5261.385,"text":"我講四月三千萬,副理要買機器對不對啊?"},{"start":5263.358,"end":5289.22,"text":"這個數字我在跟委員確認,不過這個數字應該,我們有支付這個買機器的一個方向。我跟國人報告,你要了解,你要去查嘛。這個本來就有啊,剛剛都跟委員說明了。當時在協議的時候就是包括買機器、維修、租金還有他的作業費,所以大約10億多。但你們現在讓我們理解就是全部只有2億8。"},{"start":5291.281,"end":5296.504,"text":"只有2億8千,所以我們已經降低損失,不要這樣啦!"},{"start":5296.504,"end":5298.565,"text":"不然就太多問題嘛!"},{"start":5298.565,"end":5301.526,"text":"這也不是你進來的過程嘛!"},{"start":5301.526,"end":5303.908,"text":"不是啦,這機器還可以用嘛!"},{"start":5303.908,"end":5312.432,"text":"你要來的時候就買了也買了嘛!對,我到任的時候當然就已經採購完。 那為什麼不能把真相讓國人理解嘛?"},{"start":5312.432,"end":5314.153,"text":"不過委員這個之前都已經說明,公開說明過了。"},{"start":5320.424,"end":5330.536,"text":"我問臺灣人看回一個知識,現在你了解到的,臺灣人聽到是沒有人。這件事情我們要賠償兩億八給廠商,但我們也已經付給他四億多機器的費用。"},{"start":5340.931,"end":5352.642,"text":"這機器要維修、要低度運轉,那幾年後不知道我們要做這個身份證,這機器等於偷自己,那你現在說我還讓它再運轉,所以沒有虧損,機器買來備用!"},{"start":5360.117,"end":5362.078,"text":"我給你保證三年來不會做啦"},{"start":5389.008,"end":5405.655,"text":"三年後就對了,這會繼續要怎樣?不要說太多後面的人。 院長,整個決策過程,為了數位身份證這件事情,你能代表政府跟臺灣人民合謀一場嗎?"},{"start":5405.655,"end":5411.558,"text":"這個很難。 我說的所謂吃筋都破碗,不好意思就好了啦,不然這個不好意思你覺得需要嗎?"},{"start":5413.118,"end":5434.025,"text":"這件事當初在觀點時,恰恰是在溝通時,有大家不同意見。 所以說政府目前是暫緩實施,未來溝通後看能不能持續溝通以後看結果是怎麼樣。 到目前為止確實讓大家等了好久,但是還是沒有實施。"},{"start":5435.18,"end":5460.988,"text":"你會覺得不好意思嗎?我是覺得說政府當然這點要跟民眾來表達說,其實在溝通的過程當中沒那麼順利。不然是你一句不好意思這麼說出來,我們台灣人你看這沒什麼意義,我一年這沒什麼意義,頭上人的刮青,你今天一個不好意思就對了,是代表你的管道,我是登記對你這麼謙遜的人。"},{"start":5463.888,"end":5482.252,"text":"但對這個事情我講的價金都不只是兩億八現在等於是最少兩億八就拍板要給人付款的賠償包括付出去的這四億多包括未來維修包括在這我幫你補償一定要我幫你補償我吃兩天三天幫你補償整個加起來超過十億"},{"start":5487.232,"end":5514.443,"text":"包括包括內政部、內部啦。我們現在就是說所有機器,假如最後我們要的方案為什麼會為什麼會因為各自的問題不敢做下去?難道這些機器沒有問題嗎?機器是沒有問題啊。你不想說全部都軟體的問題而已喔。如果你軟體改到了很周全,我跟你說"},{"start":5515.908,"end":5528.614,"text":"這幾期要再調整,所以我不是在騙你啦,我是說這件事要讓國人理解不是只有2.8億,已經將近8億多了啦,沒關係。 來進報告這件事齁,我台南市齁,最近那個天坑的問題啦,你知道嗎?"},{"start":5540.953,"end":5555.513,"text":"倒數過去歷史以來發生過這個下線幾乎都是地下市開發降百分之七十以上當然有一些公共工程那麼這一種預防性的監測來進步進展也有經歷過 有經歷過"},{"start":5559.187,"end":5571.976,"text":"是不是要針對國土署來說,你地下是開挖深度超過多少的東西,你要委外公正單位及技術專業單位來做一個監測。當然身份會提高一些,但是安全的無雙選擇。"},{"start":5578.581,"end":5584.343,"text":"謝謝委員因為從那個包括台北市的這個雞胎的這個發生這個事情之後其實一直在討論這個課題那當然我們相關開挖的規範都有"},{"start":5603.698,"end":5620.944,"text":"阿你提到說第三方的一個監測齁我們現在有必要嗎?我們現在正在審慎有沒有必要?我想從安全的...他就說...他就說我們從情社這必要的嘛!只從社會...這個在成本...身分證加不會很多啦!沒有啦!阿你就問說這個技術上可以提前超前監測嗎?這就要延誼嗎?可以!因為一定延誼..."},{"start":5641.742,"end":5669.13,"text":"謝謝謝委員龍姐能不能因為時間已到我們請行政院給您書面質詢答覆好吧。謝謝陳行政長備詢也謝謝謝龍姐委員質詢接下來我們請登記第五位吳委員配議吳委員配議以質詢以書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報接下來我們請登記第六位李委員驗秀質詢"},{"start":5678.96,"end":5680.084,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請陳院長再請陳院長備詢"},{"start":5689.69,"end":5708.835,"text":"理委很早,恭喜你當選理委。謝謝院長早安,我們今天希望我們可以在質詢過程當中問出一些我們民眾想要知道的一些答案跟問題。院長,我們在處理年改的時候,我們特別加了一個非常重要的條文,對於物價指數超過5%的時候,或者每4年我們都應該去列入調整。"},{"start":5714.517,"end":5725.87,"text":"今年在選舉過程當中1月4號從新聞上我也看到你有提到說今年因為我們今年CPI從111年我們CPI物價指數漲了2.95112年漲到2.49那上個月主席處公布的CPI物價消費指數又更漲到3.08"},{"start":5735.981,"end":5749.737,"text":"我想物價通膨你非常清楚那從111、112其實也超過5%所以我也感謝院長你看到這些指數已經超過了所以我們行政院也馬上就列入這些討論"},{"start":5752.119,"end":5776.275,"text":"退休軍公教人員很多人都靠著退休金在生活你也非常清楚知道現在物價的指數狀況買一個便當盒要不要加蛋可能120塊要再加蛋可能變135人民的痛苦退休金增加一些些調整一些些對他來說都有很大的幫助更多人是靠這份退休金在生活"},{"start":5776.995,"end":5800.1,"text":"所以我想請問院長,距離上次的承諾,1月5號承諾,很多人批評您說,哎呀,這個又是政策選舉在買票。但是兩個月、三個月過去了,我們現在已經3月12號了,很多人都在等,不是說好要調嗎?怎麼沒有調,我在基層很多人都在問我。所以院長,你要不要回應一下,就是到底"},{"start":5800.66,"end":5803.261,"text":"我想委員最重要的是這樣子因為這裡和物價調整有關那物價調整的最後的那幾個那幾年的這個情況"},{"start":5829.918,"end":5852.329,"text":"是主計處要有一個正式的公告嘛。那所以但是我要跟委員講的就是說去年我們也想說可能會有超過5%所以去年就開始編列預算。 是你已經匡列了44億。院長我知道要法源有法源因為兩年加起來物價指數也超過5%我剛才已經報告過。 但是要真正要調多少要看那個物價指數所以我們才跟這個"},{"start":5853.79,"end":5878.464,"text":"我們的考試院以及教育部、國防部一起,所以最近這個一定會... 院長我知道這不是時間,我知道其實這個都是行政作業,不需要做到兩個月,如果這個事情你覺得很重要,其實早就應該有答案,所以我今天希望具體的幫所有軍公教同仁,請問院長到底這件事情什麼時候可以做,因為"},{"start":5879.544,"end":5897.57,"text":"你到時候當然會追溯到1月1號,但是每個月錢都不夠用啊。所以院長到底什麼時候要做?是5、6年前?還是下個月?還是一個月內?好,在最近就會公告了。所以是各位來的?對。好,感謝院長。時間先暫停,我可不可以請林浩昌林部長。麻煩請內政部備詢。院長我時間不要一直走。"},{"start":5905.274,"end":5916.911,"text":"院長我想第二個政策我想非常重要覺得居住正義是社會正義當中非常重要的一環我相信您同意我同意"},{"start":5917.785,"end":5946.404,"text":"過去7、8年來蔡英文強調我們要興建20萬戶的社宅賴清德更談到他要興建100萬戶社宅的興建有它的挑戰跟困難度不是興建100萬戶是包括包租代管還有房租補貼但是我們都非常清楚包括林佑昌林部長您過去擔任過基隆市市長您非常清楚興建的困難度在哪裡所以我們才有包租代管政策我也關注到您在基隆市市長任內的時候"},{"start":5948.125,"end":5948.405,"text":"來我們來看幾個數據"},{"start":5974.622,"end":5981.274,"text":"我的數據裡面大家看到包租貸款是我們整個過去20萬戶蔡英文的20萬戶包租貸款將近佔了5成"},{"start":5985.757,"end":6008.897,"text":"所以包租代管的政策對我們來說其實是相對重要因為興建要找土地不是那麼容易又要跟鄰近要蓋的時候又要跟住戶去做旁邊林地的住戶做更多的溝通所以包租代管是重要的政策我們也看到過去這七八年我們興建的已完成的只有12.8戶然後我們再看下一張圖表"},{"start":6009.738,"end":6009.958,"text":"當然有差異性"},{"start":6038.624,"end":6058.502,"text":"那我們現在我覺得包租貸款政策做得好很重要您剛才也同意但我們給的獎勵或優惠或給的蘿蔔是你如果提出來包租貸款的話房東可以免一萬五千塊的優惠對不對但是部長你知道嗎新北市跟台北市跟基隆市"},{"start":6059.463,"end":6059.844,"text":"臨時提案委員"},{"start":6076.525,"end":6104.355,"text":"其實我覺得在各縣市應該有差異性或者放寬我們才有機會包租貸款政策能夠做得更成功。 院長部長你同意我的說法嗎?對啦但是我要跟委員講的你剛才提到因為以現在的這樣的免稅額度我們也發現這個包租貸款的事情是很蓬勃在進行甚至有些...對啦但是院長我要告訴你"},{"start":6104.995,"end":6122.728,"text":"我租金很多租金都是隱形收入你積償也不好積償有沒有被課稅不好積償我配合包租貸款我反而被懲罰到房東因為我變成我的租金要揭露對不對部長你同意嗎"},{"start":6123.468,"end":6147.546,"text":"現在我們因為已經修法這一部分是對所以我前幾天我特別在財政委員會質詢的時候我跟莊部長討論說我覺得第一我們的包住代管成功是社會住宅居住正義當中很重要的一環達標很重要的一環但是在各縣市在15000塊第一要不是更放寬我們提高上限第二"},{"start":6148.166,"end":6168.111,"text":"要不然我們就應該有各縣市的租金收入的差異性。 院長您了解我的意思嗎?以台北市來說,譬如說免稅額的差異性,我們應該要出來。 我們的包租代管政策才有機會像基隆做的這麼成功。 你同意我的說法嗎?"},{"start":6169.551,"end":6186.797,"text":"我們可不可以,部長我們可不可以嚴明這樣的方向來進行。謝謝委員的這個建議,當然這個意見其實之前也有人提過,不過他也會衍生其他的一個問題,也就是因為你知道就是所有的那個補助的那個金額跟標準會整個都"},{"start":6189.258,"end":6209.967,"text":"這個沒有一致性還有第二個是其實我們沒有一致性我覺得一條法令的話但是這就是牽涉到你包租貸款要不要成功這件事情各縣市有他的差異性在地價也不一樣租金也不一樣你很清楚在台北市15000塊可以租到9坪的房子在新北市可以租到16坪"},{"start":6211.127,"end":6233.138,"text":"所以我覺得每個縣市要把包租貸款做得更成功,那個免稅額的差異性要出來,我覺得才,要不然你就把它放得更寬,要不然你把它放到3萬塊,那就有機會我們包租貸完成,所以我分兩個層次來跟您建議。第一個就是我們放寬免稅額的上限,譬如說是2萬5、3萬塊,你們去做討論。"},{"start":6235.399,"end":6258.307,"text":"第二要不然就是各縣市要有差異性出來我們才有機會讓包租代管政策在全國各縣市都能夠做得更成功有更多的包租代管的房子願意進來社會住宅的政策才有機會做得更成功委員謝謝你的創意和建議那我們請因為這個會和政府的稅收有關係所以我們會讓"},{"start":6259.827,"end":6262.649,"text":"根本經驗我們最重要的目標還是直接興建,那包租代管是一個過程。"},{"start":6280.618,"end":6283.74,"text":"謝謝委員的建議我們來研議看看可行性多少還有應該怎麼簽那個需要財政部的意見"},{"start":6309.437,"end":6316.432,"text":"好我知道來我們就包装在網站我希望可以去做進一步的研擬好接下來是不是請部長請回我現在請邱主委"},{"start":6318.715,"end":6344.756,"text":"院長部長兩岸的問題其實我覺得整個院裡面不同調我實在是覺得這個到底要人民能夠安心還是應該要緊張我覺得實在是很奇怪國安部部長說他輾轉難眠邱部長說他也睡不好然後我們蔡明彥蔡局長說要國人放心台海的局勢沒有升高"},{"start":6345.857,"end":6372.72,"text":"國防部部長跟局長一個是在對臺灣來說一個是耳目一個是背膀但是兩個人卻是各自表述我們到底應該放鬆還是應該緊張人民應該相信誰我覺得這個問題很重要院長你上一次參加蔡總統召開的國安高層會議是什麼時候上個禮拜三"},{"start":6374.461,"end":6385.176,"text":"我跟委員報告臺灣的一定知道這件事情很重要上次召開國安的高層會議是什麼時候你參與了我們有國安的早餐會報國安高層會議呢"},{"start":6388.26,"end":6406.997,"text":"國安高層會議有沒有針對兩岸的局勢,包括驚嚇的事件,還有包括若魯斷交,還有大陸片面取消M503的航線,針對這些事情到底有沒有召開國安高層會議?都有在討論,都有在國安的相關的會議討論。"},{"start":6411.388,"end":6433.838,"text":"但是沒有召開國安高層會議這個有些機密性的事情我在這裡不方便說明但是確實這一些談到的我請問一下周主委你上一次參加國安高層會議是什麼時候周主委剛剛院長講的其實我們每個禮拜都有一些相關的會議在進行那這個進行包括會長的"},{"start":6435.589,"end":6450.797,"text":"國防、國安、還有兩岸、還有外交等等。 看起來你們兩個說是都有召開嗎?只是或許他不是叫國安高層會,但是都有召開。 那到底開了什麼?"},{"start":6450.797,"end":6454.519,"text":"有一些不能對外揭露,但是有一些應該讓人民放心啊。"},{"start":6455.399,"end":6455.659,"text":"國安的問題我覺得"},{"start":6473.098,"end":6488.811,"text":"國安高層會議我從網路上調閱資料你們甚至對發放過去2022年發放6000塊的現金你們也召開國安高層會議針對烏克蘭的局勢你們也召開國安會議然後包括美國總統大選過後你們也召開國安高層會議所以"},{"start":6491.293,"end":6518.372,"text":"當然有些內容你們不能揭露但是我覺得讓外界知道每一次國安高層會議結束之後你就必須釋放出某一些訊息讓人民可以安心我們現在最大的問題是我們國安局局長跟處部長不同調一個是他輾轉難眠釋放出來的是兩岸局勢很緊張另外一個是要大家放心沒問題沒問題那到底是怎麼樣我們CNN國際分析的記者還說"},{"start":6519.713,"end":6546.513,"text":"台海的局勢沒有最危險只有更危險這是我們從媒體上看到所以我們到底是要相信誰CNN的記者還是我們要相信我們要相信蔡局長還是我們要相信邱部長還是今天邱主委要說什麼我想基本上兩岸的這個情勢它連動到所謂的國際的這個我想委員大概清楚了那基本上大概總統都會在"},{"start":6548.835,"end":6553.937,"text":"主委、院長我覺得兩岸局勢的緊張,我覺得要讓人民知道,現在不同調,蔡總統到底是既定神事嗎?國安局局長昨天在大院的國防外交委員會"},{"start":6571.423,"end":6574.045,"text":"國安局長的講法就是代表整個我們對國安的這個看法"},{"start":6598.211,"end":6623.019,"text":"我們也希望蔡總統要對外釋放出一些訊息。謝謝李委員燕秀的發言。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第七位馬委員文君質詢。"},{"start":6636.551,"end":6636.911,"text":"韓院長陳院長陳院長"},{"start":6653.419,"end":6675.228,"text":"在這裡我們剛剛也聽到非常多的委員都對我們所有不管是我們的內政兩岸其實現在有很多很多的問題都值得探討我們也非常感謝院長這段時間其實在各個政策上面我想所有的行政同仁大家都有付出不過"},{"start":6675.708,"end":6695.964,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6696.304,"end":6717.521,"text":"這個已經是很多年前了,這雖然是只有一個可是我記得當時是一排的日本的相關人員這是因為他們把櫻花開放的日期提早宣布只是因為這樣的錯誤他們馬上鞠躬道歉因為他們覺得對人民造成影響甚至對觀光客"},{"start":6718.601,"end":6735.506,"text":"就這個事件來看我們也看到非常多因為在整個行政過程當中很多人其實都有行政經驗可是你難免有缺失比如說像近期發生的雞蛋的事件蘇丹紅的事件還有包括像數位身份證"},{"start":6736.586,"end":6754.387,"text":"還有像淘機造成很多旅客的不便在他的起降造成很多的混亂這些在在顯示在不管政策也好各方面也好他都有存在疏失可是我們的政府尤其現在執政黨卻不願意道歉"},{"start":6755.188,"end":6772.562,"text":"其實我覺得非常剛剛包括謝榮健議員在詢問的時候我相信院長你只是說溝通不夠好溝通不夠好其實也是一個正確的政策的不周延我們不要說現在就篤定的說他是錯的"},{"start":6773.303,"end":6797.933,"text":"可是至少你的不周延這個讓我們人民浪費了很多的納稅錢因為政府你掌握了所有的包括政策的決定還有包括所有的法規所有的法則還有人民的納稅錢當你在運用這些的時候如果你做了錯誤的判斷花錯了錢或者甚至造成人民的損害照理說政府都應該道歉不是嗎"},{"start":6798.956,"end":6818.354,"text":"啊,如果政府有做錯就要道歉,這是確實的。所以剛剛我念的這些院長也是正文都沒有錯嗎?桃機我們的這個相關的單位都已經有到桃園機場的那個事件有道歉。然後雞蛋的事情的話,實際上這是臨北好遊的一個錯假消息嘛齁。"},{"start":6820.675,"end":6835.444,"text":"一旦的事情我講的不是林北好友,而是我們從巴西進口,然後你這樣子的一個保存期還包括讓人民吃到不新鮮的蛋,而且花了大筆的經費,然後你再去把它銷毀。"},{"start":6838.226,"end":6863.601,"text":"院長,請你不要再微笑。這個部分我很慎重地講。今天如果人家可以為天后的因素都可以造成他們可以道歉。剛剛我講了,今天你在決策的過程,包括你在運用人民的錢,人民的血汗錢,當你自己在花這些錢的時候你會這樣用嗎?這是我今天要提出來的。"},{"start":6864.602,"end":6890.722,"text":"我覺得錯誤難免今天不要說讓大家一直攻擊或者大家產生疑慮或者造成這麼多的傷害的時候政府才今天我們看到副院長行政院副院長他有提到我們以後救這個蘇丹紅的事件我們應該要怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣這個不是更早之前就應該做的嗎那你沒有及時做而且造成已經嚴重危害到全台的食安的問題的時候還不應該道歉嗎"},{"start":6893.524,"end":6912.662,"text":"這是沒有錯的嗎?這是我今天其實在看到很多委員提出來的時候有感而發,但本來我今天是沒有準備這一點的。 在這裡我們也請院長因為你身為整個中華民國的大家長,很多的政策決定包括"},{"start":6913.783,"end":6938.669,"text":"之前日本北海道他們發生那個鐵道意外事件的時候他們的總裁還以死謝罪36個人受傷他們除了道歉賠償到最後總裁過意不去還以死謝罪他自殺了我們沒有要求說我們需要這樣子需要這樣子做可是當你錯誤的時候你就應該要道歉或者甚至很迅速的不用那個不是政黨之爭"},{"start":6940.349,"end":6961.749,"text":"這個已經影響到全臺所有的甚至包括國際的形象這個本來就應該要及時的做決定而不是這個跟在野黨或者執政黨根本沒有關係所以我想這個是我今天特別提出來的我們希望就這個部分我們盡量減少如果可以道歉或者可以負責"},{"start":6962.87,"end":6990.551,"text":"我相信我們的政策決定會有更少的錯誤發生,因為你會更戰戰兢兢。現在大家人都來消費就好了,你如果有錯的時候甚至連茶葉跟咖啡都可以拿出來類比這是什麼樣的官員。所以我們現在要說的是當你追究責任的時候,今天為什麼我們簡單的犯了一些交通法則都要被罰九百、千萬、三千、甚至萬萬。"},{"start":6991.972,"end":7009.828,"text":"民眾就會痛今天官員什麼都可以在站在這裡大剌剌的做錯了花了人民的錢還可以不用道歉那他當然一而再再而三的犯錯哪有關係這是我們今天要講的態度的問題這部分雖然院長我們不曉得你會不會繼續續任可是"},{"start":7012.43,"end":7021.565,"text":"就這個部分我們還是希望這個政府的政策或者政府的所有的行政都是延續的"},{"start":7023.73,"end":7043.385,"text":"我可以回答嗎?好委員謝謝你的指教我想我們各部會一向都戰戰兢兢來做復國立民的工作那確實有些缺失的地方我們一定會來加以精進改善那應該道歉的我們也會道歉那很重要的這個內閣跟下一任的內閣一定是無縫接軌委員不用擔心謝謝"},{"start":7044.491,"end":7072.759,"text":"無縫接軌我們希望是對的事情,如果是有錯誤的或是偏賊,你看無縫接軌,這樣月頭要八年後面又四年,這樣大家也很累。所以在這裡我想接下來這是我們特別提出來的,另外就是就國土計畫法的部分希望是不是可以在這裡也先提出一些建議,因為這個牽涉到整個國家我們在未來"},{"start":7073.559,"end":7073.579,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":7093.903,"end":7111.158,"text":"我簡單舉一些例子來講,因為臺灣的地形地貌,其實它大概都是組成除了平地以外,平原以外,其實很重要的組成是山坡地還有河川,這個在臺灣分佈非常的廣泛,尤其它的面積也非常大。"},{"start":7111.658,"end":7125.956,"text":"你從北向台北基隆基隆可能是還比較特殊的我想部長對自己的你在之前治理過的一個縣市也非常的熟悉可是往往底下包括桃園"},{"start":7126.917,"end":7129.919,"text":"我現在舉例來說比如說像南投縣的縣內他大概74%的那個土地位置都是在國土保育區上面"},{"start":7149.653,"end":7149.753,"text":"國土計劃法"},{"start":7164.833,"end":7189.226,"text":"為什麼說有不周延的地方?因為在這個過程當中各縣市政府當初是委託各縣市政府去辦理相關的這些分區土的劃設不過因為人力還有資源還有很多的因素其實他沒有辦法去實地的去做現勘或者就現有的一個現況現貌去做調整"},{"start":7190.006,"end":7204.368,"text":"而是照過去的一些圖資所以有一些圖資他已經很久了比如我舉例來說我相信院長跟部長都對濟南大學一定有印象吧濟南大學是一個台地"},{"start":7205.069,"end":7223.104,"text":"他這個臺地他也在山坡地上可是既然他大學這個臺地他已經從早期甚至有平埔族還有原住民族其實因為埔里是一個盆地像這些臺地都非常的穩定然後也沒有從來沒有發生過什麼土石流啊什麼的"},{"start":7223.624,"end":7223.644,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":7243.49,"end":7243.51,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":7273.91,"end":7293.542,"text":"可是你當你用這個圖面直接把它畫上去的時候,我旁邊中壇公路大家也有走過嘛,從台中要到日月壇這一條公路,其實它旁邊有很多的住宅,很多的民宅,它是私有地喔,而且是建地,可是它都被河川治理線直接畫,不能蓋房子。"},{"start":7294.667,"end":7321.571,"text":"不能居住,它已經在那裡蓋了好幾十年,住了好幾代了,可是因為你這樣一畫,它是有地耶,又是間地耶,然後它的河川是可能在旁邊的10米,幾乎也不是10米,10層樓高,它要淹也淹不上來,可是你畫不是就現況,你沒有去現地看,說這個到底要不要規範它,那你直接就畫一條線它就不能用了。"},{"start":7322.171,"end":7340.537,"text":"所以在在的顯示我們我舉這些例子是說我們在整個國土計畫法裡面其實各個縣市都有發生這樣的問題是不是就還沒有很周延沒有辦法用現況去做調整的情況之下是不是可以暫緩實施因為這個部分我們請因為"},{"start":7343.338,"end":7365.09,"text":"這是人民的權利的問題包括他的財產權我想這個可能全國各地都有發生所以這個部分在請院裡面是不是院長可以跟相關的部門或者相關的部會可以做充分的溝通聯繫然後再一次審慎的評估因為不然你到時候又會像一些農地上面的工廠"},{"start":7366.01,"end":7391.733,"text":"他明明是違法的可是你現在想方設法讓他就地合法那又傷害到很多原來在農地上面耕作的農民他蓋他要蓋農舍很困難可是像可以營利的工廠其實我們這個當然也是有一些歷史的淵源那你又立了這樣的法再去再去讓他變成好像可以合法所以"},{"start":7392.073,"end":7393.794,"text":"國土計畫法在各個縣市在執行上都有很大的困難,而且各個縣市來負責,所以我們也"},{"start":7409.326,"end":7412.107,"text":"國土計畫一開始的核心其實就是因為我們台灣的國土超限利用所以為了國土的永續"},{"start":7436.601,"end":7451.56,"text":"那當然他在畫攝的時候從國土的保育的區域開始畫攝這第一點。第二個你剛剛提到的這些問題在實際縣市政府在執行推動的時候的確有碰到這些困難所以我們國土署在跟地方政府在"},{"start":7452.753,"end":7469.285,"text":"．條溝通的時候也針對這些問題希望能夠這個意義的來解決那第三呢這個你剛提到的那個應該是行水就是應該是水利的行水區跟他實際的這個使用分區有"},{"start":7470.292,"end":7495.282,"text":"這個落差不符合的這個狀況那這個其實是可以個案來做檢討不是不是部長這個不是個案我剛剛講的它全部都是普遍的問題因為它整條河流它整條河流不是沒有沒有不是它不是我說的不是它不是河川治理線而已它還有包括它因為我們在整個範圍裡面我們有提到的可能包括"},{"start":7495.882,"end":7499.085,"text":"所以我說的不是個案他是整條河川線"},{"start":7525.145,"end":7526.366,"text":"時間是法定在裡面,所以這部分還需要,時間還需要修法。第二個是我們現在"},{"start":7577.898,"end":7579.943,"text":"謝謝馬文君委員的質詢。謝謝陳議長的備詢。報告院會現在休息10分鐘。我們現在休息。"},{"start":8172.273,"end":8194.205,"text":"現在我們繼續開會接下來我們請登記第8號李委員昆城質詢謝謝院長我們請陳院長再請陳院長備詢"},{"start":8202.701,"end":8230.36,"text":"院長恭喜你當選謝謝,謝謝院長這個昨天看到一個非常難過而且憤怒的一個新聞那就是有這個保姆涉嫌把兒童虐待致死的案件那相信院長也看到這個新聞我看了很難過我相信大家看了都非常難過那尤其我們自己有小孩看到這個新聞會非常難過就是說這個問題就在於說這個小孩他是在一個高風險家庭的一個家庭"},{"start":8231.021,"end":8256.723,"text":"然後他透過這個新北市社會局跟台北市社會局轉介到這個兒童福利聯盟那兒童福利聯盟呢他也去找了這個具有這個合格的居家保姆證書的人的保姆來照顧這個小孩但是從這個去年的9月送到這個流行保姆到去年的12月24號這個兒童被虐致死死亡了"},{"start":8257.483,"end":8259.304,"text":"在這個環節就我們目前所掌握的確實在對於這些兒童我們是需要有定期去訪視了解他的情況。"},{"start":8272.537,"end":8295.768,"text":" 那就我們所了解呢,他這個訪視的這個情形呢,雖然有趣,可是並沒有發現問題所在。 所以我們衛福部呢,實際上在就已經因為這個重大事件的發生,希望能夠來了解,更了解這個地方政府所做的這一些情況。 那並且呢也規定了這個訪視的頻率要增加,而且訪視人員的這個訪視的能力也要加強。"},{"start":8302.031,"end":8321.731,"text":"這個訪試包含這個臺北市社會局的訪試然後還有兒福聯盟社工的訪試那我看一下這個新聞的報導就是說這個臺北市的訪試到目前為止只有一次那這個兒福聯盟的訪試本來應該一個月一次應該有4次但是到12月的時候那一次因為保姆說有其他問題就不讓他看"},{"start":8322.352,"end":8342.843,"text":"在最後一次沒有看到,但是最後一次12月4日就發生這個悲劇了。所以說剛剛院長提到說這個訪視的頻率要增加。當然就是說我認為就是說當這個社工去做訪視的時候,如果能夠多了解一下這個孩子的一個兒童的身體跟心理的狀態,"},{"start":8343.983,"end":8348.774,"text":"或許在12月之前就能夠發現這個問題所在我自己也認為說有三個問題也請教一下院長就是說"},{"start":8352.932,"end":8376.066,"text":"第一個我們要先檢討高風險家庭兒童轉介的安置的機制因為他是高風險家庭他跟一般的比如說我們送給保母居家保母我們還可以定期去看我們可以瞭解一下說保母的情況是怎麼樣但是這個是屬於高風險家庭父母都不在有跑路有的在監獄裡面沒辦法看就完全只能託給這個兒福聯盟還有他們的這個社工去造勢去訪視這是第一個問題"},{"start":8377.011,"end":8396.904,"text":"第二個就是說這是老問題的社工缺人低薪流動率高而且在訪視的時候呢他並沒有公權力就是說如果保姆不讓他去看他也沒辦法看他頂多就是說做個這一個登記這樣子作為下次要不要再續聘這個保姆的一個機制而已他沒有公權力然後第三呢"},{"start":8397.577,"end":8422.674,"text":"居家保姆的審核機制我也認為要加強因為據報導就是說有一位無姓主播他們本來也有跟這個流性保姆也有接觸他也到他家裡面去看過他發現說整個這個居家的環境並不適合照顧他的小孩所以他們就最後沒有讓他接這個案子但是我不知道說為什麼兒福聯盟他們去看了之後發現說那這個流性保姆的家裡是適合照顧這個幼兒的"},{"start":8423.928,"end":8441.098,"text":"所以我認為說對於這個居家保姆的審核機制我認為也是要加強啦委員這裡所提到的這三個機制確實是三個問題確實是需要有加強的地方那對於社工缺人低薪流動率高這個問題我要跟委員報告事實上我們也"},{"start":8441.886,"end":8468.336,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":8468.536,"end":8468.556,"text":"委員長"},{"start":8476.074,"end":8498.626,"text":"這個社工他們是很辛苦啦,這個他們壓力也很大,然後所以說我是希望說在這個錢的部分,預算的部分,能夠再給予這個協助,再給予協助啦。這個是有關於,我昨天看到這個新聞,我是真的是非常難過。我也很痛心,然後難過,而且對政治也很憤怒啦,說怎麼可以這樣對待小孩。"},{"start":8499.086,"end":8528.512,"text":"我也希望說這個檢察官或是最後在法院在這個階段的時候不要再輕輕放過啦每次每次這種兒童虐死案那事情的風波新聞一過之後大家就不重視了然後最後在這個量刑這方面都沒有符合社會的期待啦對於正義的期待這檢察官現在已經在偵辦當中啦那他所設的這個罪嫌最高是可以處10年以上的有期徒刑但是我們希望法院在判案的時候"},{"start":8528.952,"end":8538.838,"text":"院長提到這個詐騙集團,剛好有兩個選舉證件要請教一下院長。第一個是加重詐騙的行動,第二個是有關於推動交通安全基本法。這是我在選舉的時候,這是我的證件,所以今天利用這個寶貴的時間來請教這個院長。"},{"start":8556.448,"end":8580.765,"text":"那這個齁,我們行政院老實講齁,在關於這個詐騙這方面,投入的人力啦、物力啦,防止這個詐騙的決心,那甚至這個完成打詐無法。但是老實講,我們自己在選舉的時候,大家最,就是最嫌罪多的地方,就是打詐。就認為說政府有做,但是民間的感受跟政府做的這個期待是有很大的落差的。"},{"start":8582.046,"end":8585.389,"text":"按照107年到111年警政署的刑事案件統計,詐欺成長只有詐欺是成長26%,其他毒品切到酒駕都有下降,詐欺是成長的"},{"start":8606.989,"end":8635.587,"text":"然後呢,詐騙的這個經濟規模我用這個財產的損失還有這個攔阻的金額把它算起來當作一個是一個詐騙的經濟規模從2021年的81.5億到2023年呢到了178.5億就是說這個詐騙的總金額其實是提高的雖然你攔阻有增加但是總的金額是增加的所以民眾不滿呢就在於說這個詐欺這個時代是非常的氾濫"},{"start":8636.465,"end":8644.668,"text":"而且法官的輕判,剛剛有提到,法官輕判舉幾個案子,洗錢90億涉案20人,結果態度良好就緩刑。查詐騙集團還有賭博網站的洗錢水房,30人以3萬到20萬元交保,很輕。"},{"start":8658.229,"end":8673.377,"text":"警方的N化車收證沒有證據能力,然後最後是詐騙集團這四個人無罪定驗,這個都跟人民期待有非常大的落差。然後法務部的統計,詐欺判刑在3年以上只佔0.5%,從106年到110年,這5年,這個總共判刑3年以上,"},{"start":8681.16,"end":8682.141,"text":"﹚三、3月12日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":8700.838,"end":8714.409,"text":"現在的詐騙是一個有組織性的科技、金融、智慧化跟結合暴力集團的一個新型態的犯罪手段。所以把這個刑責加重,然後強化電信業者還有數位中介服務提供者的這個"},{"start":8715.632,"end":8738.276,"text":"防止詐騙的義務跟責任還有最後就是納入這個量刑的準則不要說有的判得很輕有的無罪那是判得很重的很少所以我想請教一下院長跟部長現在關於這個打詐專法那應該是有這個會用打詐專法的方式來這個杜絕這個詐欺我想請問一下目前進度如何"},{"start":8738.815,"end":8761.033,"text":"現在打詐裝潢正在請各部會來積極嚴禮裝潢的內容這一個部分會健全電信金融機構還有數位經濟的管理等等這一個部分我們會來提高詐欺的行則都會用打詐裝潢來做我們也希望能夠盡快的來完成送到大院來做審議"},{"start":8761.954,"end":8781.504,"text":"那有辦法在520之前送來我們立法院嗎?我來請他們加緊看看。不過我這一件整件事情是羅秉成政委在統籌。那我也要請教他最近發布會這一個努力的程度。我知道你們最近有密集在開會啦。那部長?"},{"start":8783.035,"end":8802.965,"text":"部長,這個組織單位應該是內政部嗎?我們是統籌,因為這部分會涉及包括金管會、NCC書發部還有法務部相關的一個單位,所以院是交由內政部來提案領銜,不過這涉及相關機關。那我跟委員報告最新的進度是3月7號的時候,"},{"start":8804.198,"end":8822.193,"text":"各部會所提的相關的一個草案已經回到內政部我們在進行會診那接下來在3月的下旬還有4月的下旬會由院這邊來密集召開相關的一個會議來進行進一步的一個討論那院裡面的一個指示是希望用以這個會期"},{"start":8824.235,"end":8825.355,"text":"來提交立法院為目標"},{"start":8845.586,"end":8863.399,"text":"這是給你們期許,至少表示一個決心,我們要做了。另外也跟內政部有相關的就是說,我們在之前有通過道路交通安全基本法,現在行政院也把行人交通安全設施條例也送到立法院來做審查了。"},{"start":8864.139,"end":8882.049,"text":"然後呢我老實講齁這個在我們在這個選舉的過程當中齁就很多的這個民怨也關於就是說齁這個齁呃有關於人行道齁這個都沒辦法整治那沒有一條齁這個安全的路齁可以我可以從這個比如說從捷運站走到某一個定點齁"},{"start":8883.542,"end":8902.074,"text":"其實這個捷運站應該已經算是一個重要的交通設施。它附近周圍的這個交通的這個人行道的整治或是關於這個行人安全的這個措施應該是做得最好。但是我發現其實我們還有很多需要加強的地方。那按照這個目前我所拿到的資料是說"},{"start":8903.615,"end":8904.235,"text":"這一部分我請部長來回應"},{"start":8929.587,"end":8942.455,"text":"謝謝委員因為院長非常的重視所以我們有一個永續提升人情安全的一個計畫所以這個是有4年400億那內政部的部分我們是有260億那會分4年來編列分別是20、100、140跟140那我們特別還針對兩個部分是全額補助的"},{"start":8952.402,"end":8969.554,"text":"這跟過去比較不一樣,一個是交通部盤整提供依照式路口的清單,那它可以在113年底前完工的話,這個是全額補助。另外是全民參與街道改善決策平台在全國前10名者,這部分也全額補助。"},{"start":8971.422,"end":8992.871,"text":"這個我按照你們的這個通過的草案這個新聞稿上面我是認為就是說你們是有提到重點但是最後是另外一回事所以你們說現在既有道路上面這個電信箱、油桶、消防栓這些公共設施老實講我們每次在會館的時候也都是遇到這些公共設施這是台電的、這個是中華電信的、這是哪裡的"},{"start":8996.092,"end":9003.316,"text":"我跟委員報告一下這個中央圖法不足以執行地方政府的執行力非常的重要那現在地方政府基本上都有一個這個五大這個管線的整合的一個平台"},{"start":9020.035,"end":9037.533,"text":"那就是做得細不細膩的問題這是第一點。第二個過去的確是東做一段西做一段他可能雖然我們看起來全國的總體的改善的數據或者每一個縣市改善的數據好像看起來很多但是他實際上他並不是串聯的"},{"start":9037.893,"end":9059.945,"text":"那我們在這一次的計畫裡面的KPI會跟過去也不一樣。我們會把所謂的連續性的人行道的長度或者是它連續性的這個開放空間或者是廣場人可以這個安全行走這個空間的面積連續性的面積這個會定為未來的一個KPI跟過去比較不一樣。"},{"start":9061.039,"end":9079.981,"text":"這個齁,你們有四個主要的計畫啦。第一個,入口設施不良的改善。第二個就是說,都市計畫道路一定寬度的人行道要改設。然後第三呢,就是剛剛部長所講的,行人友善區。然後第四呢,指定路段統一重修。那這個都需要錢。我是認為啦,四年四百億已經不夠用。就像很多這個"},{"start":9080.742,"end":9107.688,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":9121.355,"end":9121.515,"text":"謝謝李委員、崑禎"},{"start":9141.83,"end":9155.005,"text":"謝謝李委員、昆城的諮詢。謝謝陳委員長的備詢。接下來第9號沈伯陽委員之諮詢已書面提出。請行政院書面答覆並列入記錄刊登公報。接下來我們請登記第10號張委員亞林諮詢。"},{"start":9176.892,"end":9183.135,"text":"有請院長跟部長,謝謝。再請陳院長跟內政部,謝謝。總委員好,恭喜你。謝謝院長,院長早安。早安。首先在開始之前,我想要,剛剛李昆城委員也有提到,就是一歲凱開的這個招虐事件。所以這幾點,是因為我看了這個事件之後,我覺得有三個疑點。"},{"start":9205.635,"end":9220.847,"text":"這三個疑點呢主要是說為什麼訪視的社工發現孩子明明有狀況可是卻沒有積極的去通報主管機關那再來就是說第二個是原保姆他本來就已經打算要收養可是為什麼被拒絕第三個"},{"start":9222.228,"end":9239.973,"text":"家長為什麼他沒有選擇攜子入獄是他不曉得有這個可以申請嗎?所以這有三大疑點是希望院長可以責成相關單位去釐清事實的真相看看還有沒有什麼制度面我們可以再改善的那還給家屬一個公道這樣子"},{"start":9241.274,"end":9268.096,"text":"謝謝委員的關心這一個部分確實我們已經請這個衛福部來加強跟這個臺北市政府這邊聯繫然後來了解這個整個事件的來龍去脈希望這件事情不要再發生謝謝謝謝院長那接下來就是進到我今天想要問的有關於第一個問題就是國家為什麼這幾年要積極的推動永續這件事情可以請院長回答嗎"},{"start":9270.509,"end":9299.18,"text":"我想國家的這個永續的發展這個sustainable的這個國我SDG實際上是每一個國家都很重要因為它會牽涉到一個國家的政治、經濟、環境、社會等等的發展還有這個人權的這個保護這都是在這個整個永續發展裡面永續目標裡面我們所需要注意的"},{"start":9300.369,"end":9326.063,"text":"對,剛剛院長有提到就是包含人權的保障,那其實我可以這樣說嗎?就是我們是要保障下一代有一個更好的生活環境,院長跟部長認同嗎?完全認同,而且這也是我們政府應該做的,而且要鼓勵民間一起來參與。那其實兒童遊戲是過去經常被疏忽的一環,那兒童其實是透過遊戲來發展他的身心健康。那不曉得說院長您看這個圖,您知道這是在哪裡嗎?"},{"start":9327.639,"end":9350.731,"text":"我不知道我孫子都比較大了所以沒有覺得沒有很多好像可以攀爬可以那個玩耍的地方對不對好這其實是兒童的職能治療室好那其實有國外的非常多的研究大家都在說明說其實通過充足的遊戲是可以幫助兒童身心發展可以延緩一些問題的那所以呢在去年的時候我們國家有個統計的數字是"},{"start":9351.852,"end":9366.101,"text":"疫情之後兒童身心發展的遲緩人數達到了新高所以我想大家應該非常了解就是說兒童遊戲真的是非常非常重要除了是保障一般兒童還有包含就是幫助兒童可以有更好的避免這些身心疾患的問題"},{"start":9368.112,"end":9382.371,"text":"再來,我們更公立的來講,從國家經濟來講,世界經濟論壇其實在2018年開始就去倡議兒童需要透過遊戲來去學習未來世代必須具備的關鍵能力,像是解決問題的能力、人際關係能力,還有創造力。"},{"start":9385.795,"end":9402.149,"text":"再來我想再分享一個故事,我們不要那麼功利,我們溫暖一點。就是過去我在民間,我一起訪談了非常多的家長,你為什麼會想要來公園玩?其中有一個爸爸講了一個故事讓我覺得非常的感動,他就說大家都教我們爸爸一定要陪小孩,可是我真的不知道怎麼陪小孩。"},{"start":9402.79,"end":9403.09,"text":"好,這個很重要。"},{"start":9421.817,"end":9422.618,"text":"反紅色框框的是公務員數量正在減少的現實"},{"start":9449.482,"end":9476.335,"text":"我們可以看到總數雖然是成長可是呢從彰化或是新竹縣市呢它其實是以二分之一到三分之一的數量在減少那我也非常清楚這是為了符合國家遊戲場的標準所以他們做了一些拆除的動作那也非常感謝國土署在去年編列了一個兒童遊戲場環境設施改善計畫10億元的經費那我想要問一下就是我知道第一階段已經申請結束了現在應該還有3億元那我想要知道說現在第二階段申請的狀況如何"},{"start":9481.059,"end":9495.274,"text":"第二階段的話,剩下3議員大概是在3月12日到3月13日來進行審查會議。那如果是獲得委員同意的這些相關的案件,我們會儘速通知地方政府來辦理。"},{"start":9497.471,"end":9520.908,"text":"我想問一下我跟委員報告一件事情因為這個特殊公園這個案子其實是要非常謝謝院長的支持這10億元是額外增加的這個最主要就是我們要來處理在112年以前因為有一些不符合規定的這些兒童遊憩場的郵具拆掉之後地方政府沒有錢把它重新恢復所以才有這個案子"},{"start":9521.601,"end":9535.076,"text":"沒錯,那我想請教院長跟部長,我們在下一個階段,因為接下來就是有一些要再做審查部分,可是因為我們剛剛有講永續,有一件很重要的事情,也要面對氣候變遷。但是院長也可以看到圖片裡,小孩在哪裡?很熱"},{"start":9537.979,"end":9552.426,"text":"小孩全部躲在那個有遮蔭的地方。 溜滑梯不能溜了,太熱了。 沒錯,太熱了齁。 那再來看到旁邊那張圖,在同一個時間點我們的自然素材跟橡膠地鏈的溫差達到了12度喔。 對,所以其實"},{"start":9553.166,"end":9568.858,"text":"我們因為氣候變遷兒童的遊戲權其實也在受影響所以我在我在想我們在下一個階段裡面我們是不是可以因應氣候變遷的關係再把這些遮蔭設備自然撲滅、吸水設施來作為一個預算核定的標準"},{"start":9570.128,"end":9570.968,"text":"我跟院長還有跟委員做個補充"},{"start":9594.731,"end":9620.199,"text":"這個特殊公園的指引帶遮蔭設備還有包括自然鋪面這大概是在設計準則裡面或者一般的設計大概都會把它納入那最細水設施必須要考慮的除了建制的成本之外其實後續的維護跟管理的成本是更大那這個會涉及地方政府是不是有這個財政的能力可以負擔所以可能不會每一個公園都會設所謂的這個細水的一個設施"},{"start":9621.496,"end":9638.058,"text":"好我再說明一下這三項其實它不一定是全部都需要具備但是希望整個城市裡面盡量的去考量到這個溫度的關係造成兒童有些人受損的影響所以不一定是全部都要那剛剛部長有講到就是說涉及到地方預算嘛所以下一題就是來講預算的問題"},{"start":9639.7,"end":9668.809,"text":"那個預算其實是因為像現在各縣市政府以六都來說我過去在民間六都其實相對有資源也知道怎麼去做一些維管可是其實在非六都的地方他們不管是預算來說非常吃緊而且相對來說他也不知道怎麼去做維管所以在這個時候他們常常就會自己做然後拆了之後被罵上報了他們又覺得很可憐很無辜所以我在想我們是不是有可能中央來成立在下一階段除了這個第二階段結束之後我們還不會有預算持續的來協助地方"},{"start":9670.531,"end":9670.692,"text":"我來補充一下"},{"start":9690.522,"end":9714.657,"text":"其實這個特色公園他可以在他有不同的尺度他也可以在不同的場域所以這個經費跟預算也不一定單單只有在內政部我舉一個簡單的例子來說好了在過去比如說像教育部在補助地方的校園的遊戲場的改善其實就有很多的縣市是把特色公園的精神融入而且他不花很多錢"},{"start":9715.587,"end":9744.456,"text":"他可能用一個同胞的一個方式後來發現說在這樣子的一個做法之下他可以做得多又做得好又做得快所以有現在已經有這些案例跟經驗來做分享這第一個第二個是因為有一些是比如說是在林里公園有一些是在體育場或者是運動場有一些可能尺度更大一點在所謂的都會公園那他都有不同的這個單位在做權管跟負責那"},{"start":9745.629,"end":9766.989,"text":"那但喔因為如果全部都是由中央這個其實地方其實最重要其實執行是在地方政府啦那我們所以我們在中央是希望有一個賠利的一個團隊能夠來協助做的比較沒那麼好的地方政府或者是包括鄉鎮市工作市公所幫他們來做人力的賠利"},{"start":9768.49,"end":9794.671,"text":"我想預算當然會來自於可能各部會因為跟他相關的主管機關有差別但我希望就是院長可以全力的來支持不同的部會都一起來推動兒童遊戲權的這件事情在能夠建設的地方我們就盡量去建設去支持那再來第二個部分剛剛部長也有提到就是說因為尺度的差異非常的大那其實地方縣市有些是非六度的地方他們其實真的很難了解我們是不是有可能有一個中央的主管機關因為我們從現在的這個配置我們的組織圖上面是完全沒有"},{"start":9795.492,"end":9795.712,"text":"內政部內政部"},{"start":9809.61,"end":9829.182,"text":"這個專職單位的設定就像剛才講到的,因為它不同的部會可能也有不同的職責。但是內政部有將近三千個,那至少內政部針對這三千個組織的縣市是不是可以來做一個中央的專職單位,帶領大家一起來成長,不然就變成是各縣市都各自的嗎?"},{"start":9829.722,"end":9848.897,"text":"其實跟委員報告一下,其實並不完全是內政部所全管,因為剛剛在提到他可能涉及很多不同的部會,只是大家聽到公園兩個字會直覺覺得是我們的過去的營建署。不過實際上在地方政府在全管的時候,其實他是分在不同的局處裡面。"},{"start":9850.49,"end":9871.373,"text":"對,所以在地方應該怎麼樣來,我覺得中央這邊有一個很重要的一個工作,就是怎麼樣empowerment,讓地方政府知道這個特色公園的設立應該怎麼樣,那未來等到他們的能力有提升以後,那一些單位應該要來負責,我們可以再來試著跟他們溝通。"},{"start":9872.361,"end":9872.681,"text":"當然可以"},{"start":9898.4,"end":9920.021,"text":"再來就是說我也在想說我們是不是有可能舉辦一些國際研討會因為國際的部分其實都已經在這個領域日新月異了自然地景的設施像剛剛部長說的可是現在大家台灣的各縣市承辦他們知不知道這個他可以這樣子做其實是不知道的那我們是不是可以舉辦這個國際研討會來支持把這些新的知識帶進來給大家讓大家一起成長呢"},{"start":9920.732,"end":9937.298,"text":"這也是Empowerment的一部分。對,所以這個部分我們可能請相關的民間團體來主辦或者是跟政府一起合辦這樣的一個國際研討會,找最棒的單位來分享。"},{"start":9938.867,"end":9952.726,"text":"謝謝,謝謝院長。接下來,因為我時間有限,我先來講這個兒童遊戲權的部分。其實我們過去在講兒童遊戲權的話,我們好像都沒有講到,我們都沒有蓋到12歲到18歲孩子的遊戲權。那他們在哪裡?他們就在手機上面玩。"},{"start":9953.046,"end":9976.869,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":9977.209,"end":10004.37,"text":"那這邊都有非常多青少年這邊做很多的挑戰所以是真的青少年不來還是我們沒有提供這個空間我認為是我們沒有給他足夠的空間那在世界經濟論壇他也提到就是說我們如果有足夠的挑戰性是可以幫助孩子降低未來事故的發生率作為一個媽媽我真的非常在乎這件事情就是每一個孩子都是家長心頭的寶貝我們如何的去創造空間讓孩子可以兼具學習跟修憩所以我們是不是可以補助全台"},{"start":10004.87,"end":10007.535,"text":"玩每一個縣市至少有一個青少的遊戲空間呢?"},{"start":10010.361,"end":10039.228,"text":"我想青少年遊戲場還有另外實際上也蠻重要的就是青少年運動的一些活動場所其實都還蠻重要的至於要補助一縣市青少年遊戲場的這件事情我們得要跟地方政府來好好的協商看看什麼樣的這大概什麼時候可以有一個進度呢我想我們還是請內政部來回答一下"},{"start":10039.828,"end":10058.204,"text":"委員我跟您報告一下,我在地方擔任國首長,我想講的是其實這個事情不管是12歲以下還是12歲到18歲的這個遊戲場,其實縣市政府其實就可以做。這個縣市長重視的話,像以前基隆那麼窮,我們自己就可以做。"},{"start":10058.784,"end":10067.453,"text":"但中央我想現在我們在中央那當然可以去就整個全國去把它做一個整體的一個規劃我們來研究再跟院長做報告"},{"start":10071.826,"end":10094.993,"text":"那再來最後一個問題就是說剛剛李昆城委員有提到道安的問題這兒少事故居安不下居高不下那我想問一下就是我們也責成了相關的預算去做這件事情但是我們有沒有什麼樣的評估機制來評估到底有沒有真正的改善那最後我想分享一個就是北美交通安全官員協會他們有提到就是說我們大人知道兒童"},{"start":10114.137,"end":10137.917,"text":"謝謝張委員、雅琳的質詢。後續有什麼資料送給行政院請進行送交行政院好嗎?那如果要什麼資料請行政院來答覆你。謝謝張委員、雅琳的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告院會,內政組織質詢現在已經詢答完畢。我們休息五分鐘之後進行外交及國防組織質詢。現在休息。"},{"start":10453.602,"end":10481.508,"text":"報告委員會,現在繼續開會進行外交及國防組織質詢。我們先請省委員柏陽質詢。謝謝主席,那有請院長還有國防部部長,謝謝。請陳院長及國防部備詢。"},{"start":10486.937,"end":10490.18,"text":"好 院長好 部長好那今天我的題目非常的簡單就像這個簡報上面看到的就是在討論這個卓越中心那但我也不得不說其實卓越中心這個名字對大家來講一定都非常的陌生"},{"start":10514.434,"end":10534.896,"text":"那我覺得他其實蠻適合在總質詢這樣的一個場合來跟大家介紹一下就是到底是什麼是卓越中心因為我認為總質詢非常重要的一點是在於對於重大的政策跟方針我們來確認然後以及說未來的方向大概是什麼所以在這邊也希望能夠跟院長稍微對齊一下就是其實我一直都認為"},{"start":10535.998,"end":10555.551,"text":"總質詢很重要的一點是,如果能夠書面解決,能夠書面徵詢的,我們也沒有必要在總質詢浪費時間。第二點就是,其實還是很希望官員能夠有更多的時間,詳細的答覆。因為在各國的立法例上,其實官員的答覆才是質詢的重點。因為這才是可以讓國人知道到底現在及時的我們對於這個政策到底是什麼。"},{"start":10556.144,"end":10565.339,"text":"我們再用我們的專業來進行相關的一些辯論那很可惜的就是一直以來我們到現在我們很多的這個質詢的現狀常常問一些無關的問題然後問一些細節比如說問部長這是幾年幾月幾號才有辦法完成"},{"start":10571.368,"end":10572.108,"text":"我今天其實就只有兩個問題"},{"start":10589.074,"end":10617.079,"text":"第一個問題是跟認知作戰有關因為畢竟台灣現在面臨這個中國不斷輿論的攻擊之下我認為認知作戰應該是我們現階段最需要面臨的問題那第二個問題呢就是跟卓越中心有關所以第一個問題呢最主要的就是說我們想要釐清以國人的角度來講到底什麼叫做認知作戰那部長可能也很熟悉就是其實以這個中國的用語來講就是所謂的輿論戰所以呢從作為一個影子稍微整理了一下就是"},{"start":10617.839,"end":10639.207,"text":"目前這個國防部有提到認知作戰的一個狀況,這裡面很多細節當然不一一過去,但我就隨便講一兩個紅色的部分,比如說這個金門的失聯兵或是廈門防,這個部長有提到這可能是一個認知作戰,又或者說這個網傳金門二單島又有逃兵,那這邊也有提到有可能有認知作戰的伎倆。"},{"start":10640.487,"end":10658.352,"text":"那其實以一般國人的角度來講,它的第一個反應通常就會是到底什麼是認知作戰。也就是說我們今天假設國防部出來講認知作戰它的標準是什麼,然後以及譬如說是誰發動的,它的手法是什麼,還有我們應對的方式是什麼。"},{"start":10658.872,"end":10670.271,"text":"所以在這邊想要先就教於部長趁這個機會讓大家知道說以往過去這些狀況我們說這個是一個認知作戰那我們的標準然後以及我們認定的方式大概是什麼樣子謝謝"},{"start":10671.65,"end":10685.818,"text":"我跟委員報告,這個錯角訊息是一個最認知作戰當中最明顯的。它主要發起的原因在哪裡?就為了要打擊我們,不管軍民實現士氣等等。但它的時機點它也會選擇,比如說最近有什麼議題,它會趁機擴大。"},{"start":10691.101,"end":10715.358,"text":"所以認知作戰的含義就是說在當時的狀況它無聲無息的加進來讓大家認為這是一個普遍的現象所以這的確是蠻嚴重的一點一滴的會影響到不要講說軍方民間的心理也會受到很大影響所以我們在這一方面國軍在對認知作戰防衛方面是做得很徹底"},{"start":10716.124,"end":10745.323,"text":"我們現在基本上因為國家有一個治安防護的一個團隊應變的一個團隊我國防部也是當中的一員那除了配合這個應變團隊的這個行為舉止以外我們是以國防部裡面部內的安穩所當其衝所以我們簡單講一下在部內我們平常就注意到怎麼樣防守讓這些事情不發生一旦發生了我們怎樣馬上把他給抵平這樣的話是我們克刑執責的方法"},{"start":10746.824,"end":10768.093,"text":"謝謝部長那剛剛部長有提到其實蠻重要的一點是在於軍心士氣的一個打擊那又或者我們對於輿論的一個影響那在中國的這個三戰裡面的新戰、輿論戰等等之類是分開的那剛剛部長也有提到資安相關的我們有自動電那我們在這個輿論戰的認定可能會有政戰但我現在會國人很容易疑惑的一點是我這邊用這個這個上個禮拜這個的一個業務報告為例"},{"start":10771.889,"end":10796.566,"text":"就是這邊在最後面畫紅線的這個部分有提到中共利用了這個官方媒體側翼組織在地協力者所以很明顯官方媒體是蠻重要的一個發動單位那我個人認為當然311基地就是解放軍61716部隊也是非常重要的但是因為在報告裡面有提到像側翼在地協力者這樣的一個字眼那我想國人第一個反應一定會是說那誰是在地協力者"},{"start":10797.006,"end":10821.916,"text":"又或者說今天發生的這個國防部指認是一個認知作戰的案件那今天這一個案件誰是在地協力者我們要怎麼知道他是那關於這一點國防部有沒有有一些可能準則啊或者一些說明?跟委員報成為這個整個標題啊這認知作戰一樣那在地協力者也是一個認知的問題我們只要講到你有任何訊息對我們反而不利"},{"start":10822.301,"end":10840.107,"text":"以造成一些言論對我們不利,對他對方有利,這我就初步就認為他在地協力者。但至於他到底是或不是,後面不管檢調單位他們去查。我想每一個人他做任何事情他臉上不會貼一個標籤。"},{"start":10841.983,"end":10856.615,"text":"所以他如果看機會,所以他一開頭就跟委員報告,他這個認知作戰的時機是看整個環境目前有什麼動態,他加進去讓我們不知不覺的就中到這個圈套,這就是可怕的地方。"},{"start":10857.47,"end":10875.815,"text":"謝謝部長,因為這邊就是可以明顯的感覺到就是當然他們今天不管是用滲透的方式、地面的方式又或者說網路大量的假帳號這一些有時候對我們來講很容易認定它是否來自於中國或者解放軍的攻擊但有時候在地協力者有時候他可能會說那是他的言論自由"},{"start":10876.235,"end":10898.502,"text":"甚至有時候在放大中國言論還包含我們自己的立法委員所以有時候就很多曖昧不清的狀態那這種曖昧不清的狀態現階段對我們來講有時候就會形成國防部跟國人溝通的障礙因為有時候我們並沒有辦法那麼清楚的告訴大家誰才是在地協力者連我們的法律就這一點其實都是不清楚那更不要講說我們可能在相關的準則、藥缸"},{"start":10899.662,"end":10900.563,"text":"現在我想要再問的是 我們剛剛講的是標準"},{"start":10921.357,"end":10921.717,"text":"黑色的部分就是"},{"start":10937.282,"end":10938.283,"text":"中國在操作的痕跡。"},{"start":10953.721,"end":10972.733,"text":"另外一個是一年一物易,這邊也有一些他們製造的謠言圖,因為是謠言放在國會殿堂實在是很討厭,所以我先趕快換下一張。但也可以看到那個黑色的部分也佔了一定的量體。但是在這兩個案例,我們都覺得這是一個中國有介入的痕跡,一物易相關的謠言,然後還有這個潛艦國造相關的謠言。"},{"start":10975.294,"end":11002.229,"text":"但國防部在這兩個案件並沒有特別出來告訴大家這是認知作戰。那我知道國防部可能有自己的,譬如說不管是國家安全的考量啊、政策的考量。但是我們在怕的事情就是說,如果我們今天即使確定了我們的標準是什麼,我們有一個準則告訴大家什麼叫做認知作戰。但有一些案件我們說是,有些案件我們沒有發言。那在這樣的狀況之下我們要怎樣讓這件事情變得一致,不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法。"},{"start":11002.509,"end":11029.465,"text":"我跟委員報告啊,要定一個標準都很困難的。就好像講在我們國軍同仁當中,你要哪一個他不是忠誠愛國的。但他會做出一些啊,不管是一些維密啊,或者他不留意,造成一些困擾。但我們不能講,哎,界定。你違背規定了,這規定是既有的。但違背哪些規定,你要一條條列出來,對軍中來講沒問題,我可以列出來。但對民間來講,我要做很清楚的界定。"},{"start":11029.915,"end":11053.815,"text":"怎麼樣我就認定你是一個在地協力者我真的沒有辦法只能看他從這個發出來的信息當中最後不管經過檢調、偵查或者看他後續發展有什麼影響到我們真的有什麼其他比較違背常理的這種反應的話那我們就可以慢慢判定他是在地協力者只有這樣來做的"},{"start":11055.358,"end":11076.271,"text":"謝謝,那部長你這邊提的很好,就是在於說因為它非常困難嘛,界定上它非常的困難,所以我們與其把它當作一黑一白,不如把它當作像是一個光譜一樣,譬如說哪一些是比較接近中國的操作的認知作債,哪一些比較不接近,如果我們有具體的譬如說這邊有列出來一些相關可能的一些標準,我稍微往後一點"},{"start":11077.131,"end":11091.499,"text":"就是呢譬如說不管是這個時機啦可信度啦帳號潛伏的程度啦等等之類的如果這個可以在某個準則裡面然後我們知道說在這些標準裡面譬如說它超過60%了我們可能就會告訴大家這個是一個嚴重的狀況"},{"start":11092.279,"end":11112.284,"text":"那如果不是的話呢,我們可能就先隱而不談,先不界定他是一個認知作戰,這或許是可能的一個方向。那另外剛剛部長也提到非常重要的一點就是,當今天國軍釋出訊息的時候,面對的人非常多。他有可能是要講給大眾聽的,有可能是要講給老共聽的,有可能是要講給上級聽的,也有可能是要講給國際社會聽的。但現在的狀況有時候呢,我們"},{"start":11116.165,"end":11130.59,"text":"都可能藉由部長的嘴裡去把各個必須要溝通的管道可能都是由部長講出來所以有時候認知作戰它不只是說我們今天是不是界定它是作戰的標準跟國人知道而已我們可能還要知道說什麼情況下我們是講給國人聽的"},{"start":11131.81,"end":11158.776,"text":"什麼時候是要講給對方聽的?什麼時候是講給國際社會聽的?這個如果也可以有一個準則讓我們知道的話,我相信這個在我們對國人的溝通上以及對國防部認定這件信心上面應該會有更加為的提升。這是我簡單的一個建議。是,我跟委員也報告,我剛有講我們國防部是一個國家有關於這種應變的一個成員,但我們自己部內也有。"},{"start":11159.312,"end":11169.169,"text":"我們不能推動工作剛剛委員已經點出來了就很難叛變以外但我們有透過很多管道就不管調查局也好我們軍情局也好國安局也好"},{"start":11169.784,"end":11169.804,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":11191.388,"end":11194.09,"text":"接下來我想要問的是院長,就是說我覺得這個問題是比較尷尬一點,因為我相信院長對衛福部等等會比較熟悉。"},{"start":11212.483,"end":11239.574,"text":"就是說呢有時候是解放軍發動了輿論戰的攻擊那他攻擊的對象不是國防部他最近攻擊了海巡嘛他今天攻擊的是衛福部或者攻擊的是我們的農業部製造大量的謠言那這時候就造成一個非常尷尬的狀況因為對方是一個獨裁的國家他的黨陣全部是全部是搓在一起的所以他今天雖然是解放軍發動的攻擊但他今天面對他攻擊的對象是衛福部製造跟衛福部相關的謠言那以這樣的狀況來講"},{"start":11240.794,"end":11263.914,"text":"是因為國防部出來告訴大家這邊有認知作戰還是要衛福部出來來跟大家講說這邊有一個認知作戰我想如果衛福部這邊有能力去分辨的時候呢那衛福部也可以來宣布有這樣的一個認知作戰的疑慮的考量那如果國防部這邊也是透過他們的"},{"start":11264.514,"end":11266.976,"text":"因為以衛福部的角度來講,衛福部對於解放軍的手法說真的一定是沒有國防不了解。"},{"start":11281.71,"end":11310.863,"text":"但是說真的國防部對於比如說像高端啊等等之類的一定也不會那麼的熟悉所以這也是為什麼呢就是我一直都覺得如果我們沒有一個跨部會認真地去面對這一個所謂認知作戰的機制的話會變得非常的危險所以這也是為什麼我在這邊有提到就是我們今天的這個標題叫做這個卓越中心那蔡總統其實在這一個面這個渤海這個三國的時候呢就有講到說因為其他的國家尤其是北約的國家"},{"start":11311.423,"end":11339.774,"text":"他們在面對俄羅斯的混合作戰他可能有外交的可能有國防的可能有民生經濟的攻擊你每一個部會單獨面對就是被各個擊破所以他們希望有一個中心就是卓越中心大家一起去面對這個混合戰然後一起來做分析那蔡總統那時候有提到說台灣應該有一些單位能夠對接那因為台灣目前來講名稱最像的有一個在速發部然後還有像剛剛部長提到的有時候在偵查很多是國安局跟調查局"},{"start":11340.174,"end":11362.031,"text":"但其實國防部裡面還有一個政戰對這個部分其實也是非常的熟悉但你就會發現我們有點散在每一個地方沒有辦法認真的去應對他們有時候這個一個公事可能是三個小時六個小時如果我們沒有辦法馬上去應對的話會形成非常多的困擾所以我們才想說因為現在在520之前不可能馬上突然成立一個中心但是有沒有可能開始可以開啟"},{"start":11363.192,"end":11371.759,"text":"這方面的討論,不管是從部長還是院長,因為畢竟其實我認為政戰還是有非常大的一個能量,如果能夠針對這些事情來討論的話,我們去面對認知作戰的速度應該可能會變得更快。我跟委員報告,委員這想法絕對對的,我們為了國家"},{"start":11380.505,"end":11380.885,"text":"﹚國防部委員﹚"},{"start":11409.85,"end":11416.892,"text":"謝謝陳委員博洋的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第二位吳委員中線質詢。麻煩請陳院長國防部備詢。"},{"start":11434.704,"end":11446.673,"text":"院長、部長,早安。 院長,您的那個社會流行病學書我拜讀很多次,真的獲益良多,謝謝院長。我在這邊有幾個問題想要請教,就是,院長,"},{"start":11453.345,"end":11480.476,"text":"我們知道就是依據憲法如果總統不能無法事事那就是由副總統代理那如果副總統也不行的話是由院長代理那我想請教一下院長如果我們今天呢執行到一半然後有突然這個國家這個警報簡訊大作那可能是飛彈的空襲警報那在這邊的話院長知道那個防空洞在哪裡嗎"},{"start":11482.669,"end":11508.895,"text":"這裡的防空設施我不太記得,應該看這裡的有地下室的地方。立法院其實是有一些避難設施,比如說在青島會館、議場或中心大樓樓下都有。那我今天為什麼要提這個,因為畢竟兩岸現在比較兵兇戰危,那隨時現在又講求是斬首,他們的那個戰略方式是希望以斬首的方向來減少對平民的傷害。"},{"start":11509.522,"end":11531.698,"text":"所以啊院長在這裡其實我覺得我們也是隨時要有危機的意識那我們也是要知道一下這立法院哪個地方如果再發生一些緊急狀況的時候也能夠有地方可以去躲然後去避難那其實我覺得啦就是因為我自己擔任立委的時間不長但是我覺得這段時間呢我感覺是"},{"start":11532.953,"end":11554.705,"text":"國家狀況好像越來越走向兵凶戰危。昨天CNN也有一個報導,它的大概意思就是說,以前認為台灣是一個最危險的地方,現在變得更危險。當然這個是國外媒體對我們的分析,對或不對我想院長以及部長心理一定都很清楚這整個狀況。"},{"start":11556.277,"end":11581.795,"text":"那我在這邊還是想要奉勸一下就是目前的政府其實引起戰爭的往往都是領袖而不是人民那一個領袖其實最愚蠢的領袖就是把戰爭跟貧窮帶給下一代我想兩位長官一定都在這邊都能夠體會這一句話真正一個領導人能夠做出最愚蠢的事真的就是把戰爭跟貧窮"},{"start":11583.772,"end":11588.337,"text":"請問您知道我們司法法制委員會監督的行政院部會中哪一個部會跟國防部目前那個最密切?"},{"start":11602.073,"end":11606.017,"text":"那我跟那個部長說明一下,其實跟法務部有蠻多的聯繫對吧?尤其是在"},{"start":11623.774,"end":11645.52,"text":"在102年2013年我們這個軍事審判法修正之後到103年也就是2014年其實已經把所有的人還有案件受刑人現在都是交給法務部在處理也就是說現在這個軍事審判已經變成是普通法院或是那個地檢署在處理中"},{"start":11648.846,"end":11662.204,"text":"現在這個狀況呢,軍事法院跟軍事法院檢察署現在大概都是處理一些刑事補償案件而已,就沒有像以前一樣會有一些訴訟啊,軍事法院一些訴訟的案件在進行。那我想"},{"start":11664.298,"end":11689.231,"text":"我想提一個東西就是說在這個狀況下在加重了普通法院這麼多工作量的情況下我們會不會發生一個狀況就是還沒有到戰爭爆發我們的內部就已經出了很多狀況部長您知道就是從今年二月底到現在發生了多少件這個軍人自殺的案件"},{"start":11694.565,"end":11709.57,"text":"二月二十六日到三月七日已經發生了那麼多件那其實這個數字應該算是不低尤其是在2016年的時候國防部當時就有說我們要把"},{"start":11710.492,"end":11725.822,"text":"臨時提案就是不要發生這種治傷案件我們要放成一個重大的施政目標但是近年來這個治傷的案件就不停的攀升我想說部長應該可以很知道這個狀況"},{"start":11727.83,"end":11746.078,"text":"不管發生怎麼樣,發生自殺啦,這種自殺案件,檢方就必須要去介入。就譬如說驗屍啦,或者是說我們去調查一下他到底是自殺還是他殺,或是背後有沒有一些狀況。那其實也無形的就增加了檢方非常多的工作量。"},{"start":11746.974,"end":11767.399,"text":"那部長其實在之前有檢討這個自殺案件一直增加的時候我看到有一個報導就是部長有提到說這個問題是出在有一些人他的壓力抗壓性比較弱我跟部長說其實這個話比較不妥啦因為大家比較希望就是說我們檢討制度出了什麼問題而不是"},{"start":11769.384,"end":11783.705,"text":"說去檢討這個自殺者他的行為哪裡出了狀況。那我想說您當初的這個說法可能全國的心理師、智商師他們可能也不是那麼認同。將來有機會也許是不是說能夠對這句話"},{"start":11785.987,"end":11788.468,"text":"加以說明或是道歉或是收回之類的。"},{"start":11807.495,"end":11807.515,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":11831.044,"end":11854.464,"text":"同樣的工作加在不同的人身上他有不同反應就代表什麼每個人抗壓性他個性是有所不同的這的確也是在這個個人因素當中之一環但並沒有完全歸來哎呀他就抗壓性不夠我部長才沒有講過這句話所以這認知狀態加進來吧他引用你這一段好像不得了了這一點人性都沒有"},{"start":11855.225,"end":11865.82,"text":"我們國防部一直強調了照顧官兵一家人沒有講說我認定你就錯現在這種事情發生以後我們公開到什麼地步我第一個"},{"start":11866.886,"end":11870.809,"text":"那我們再來提一下就是說我們剛有秀出有非常光是二月底到現在"},{"start":11894.685,"end":11910.091,"text":"就非常多件嘛那我來提一個就是監察院啊他之前針對那個陸軍第8軍團203旅的班長劉姓夏是自殺的案件裡面他其實有提到我再念給大家聽齁就是近10年國際自殺案件中士官兵戰75%"},{"start":11912.582,"end":11935.448,"text":"這代表國軍基層出了狀況。國防部對於視察、察覺軍官、士官、士兵環境身心狀況轉換的危機評估顯有不足。編制的心理輔導官的編制面對軍中龐大的人數也無法負荷。再來就是說這些有關精神疾病的判斷跟診療應該是要由專業的精神科醫師進行協處。"},{"start":11939.895,"end":11959.778,"text":"那國防部應該要引入這些資源。那部長我想請教一下監察院之前已經有做出這樣的調查的意旨了。那國防部到目前為止為什麼發生智商的這個比例還是頻頻上升?所以這個是當初監察院的報告沒有做好還是國防部沒有落實呢?"},{"start":11960.523,"end":11984.557,"text":"我首先跟委員報告,任何一項士官兵他們出了問題,領導幹部一定要負責,絕對不會脫開他個人的行為,不會。那我剛剛我也跟委員做了說明,這種事情一發生以後,我們會從多方面來考量。監察委員給我們調查結果,我們覺得予以尊重。 的確,國軍有很多地方沒有最好,但我們要不斷地求比較好或更好。"},{"start":11985.117,"end":12008.708,"text":"在這個是我要努力的至於防處方面我們基本上部隊裡面就有三個防線這防線不是一個口號喔他的幹部每天跟他相處在一道旁邊周邊這些人都是每天日夜相處的這些就第一道防線所以我們現在可能欠缺講說他對他關注的這個內容啊或者這個層次可能不夠這種他沒講什麼應該OK啊"},{"start":12009.989,"end":12028.004,"text":"我就跟委員報告前陣子發生的憲兵的事情,那個發生的時候,旁邊的人還跟他打招呼,沒有任何事。部長,因為時間的關係,我想我知道部長的意思。那我想說,有關這個部分,有些系統性上面的問題,還是要麻煩部長能夠多用點力,因為每一個人都是家中的寶貝。"},{"start":12028.985,"end":12047.049,"text":"那他送到部隊的當然是希望說能夠平平安安的把服役服完,希望說部長就這部分能夠再用點心。那再來我們看一下,很多自殺一定是源自於心理壓力,這個院長一定非常非常的清楚。那我們看一下國軍目前第一級這幾個狀況,什麼會符合國軍第一級的情況,這幾個狀況。"},{"start":12054.298,"end":12074.465,"text":"沒有,我沒有講這個符合,我要跟委員剛好說明一下,這個第一集是改變,不是今年這些狀況才改變的。我在161年,有些案件出來以後我就已經調整了。因為國防,這個戰備規定是我國防部的權責,所以我就調了。調了以後為什麼?因為現在的第一集,"},{"start":12075.245,"end":12076.046,"text":"有人無人有時候很難辨識啊 對不對"},{"start":12104.784,"end":12131.346,"text":"因為現在的無人機也很大一台所以我要跟委員報告一下這個程序一定要走完所以我們為什麼打訊號彈要警告要辨識要去確認確認以後再喊話不管透過什麼活動我自己的朋友他在第一線他是跟我說因為這個第一級他們都搞不清楚定義是什麼他們也很怕做了什麼行為之後會不會被當作罪犯"},{"start":12131.926,"end":12156.951,"text":"那到底他的作為符不符合國際法或者是這武裝衝突法的規範,他們都搞不清楚。 所以這一塊也要麻煩部長盡量在教育上面能夠落實,能夠讓第一線的官兵他們心裡不要有那麼大的壓力,因為他們現在的壓力除了軍中一些管教問題之外,他們也很擔心說到底我今天為了國家做了這個反擊動作到底合不合法,這是他們心裡一個很大的壓力。"},{"start":12157.932,"end":12171.058,"text":"那我這邊也是要麻煩部長這塊能夠稍微做一下那再來齁部長從2024年開始我們兵役就要延長為一年了嘛那依照我手中的數據今年會9100人那到4年後會到35000人"},{"start":12174.679,"end":12202.7,"text":"那所以呢這一次這個這個國防部跟法務部有討論到軍人逃亡的這個問題那我們剛剛所提到的現在案子都要有普通法院以及地檢署管轄那將來這個一起延長到一年之後這個我想擔心的就是案件量一定會暴增部長您知不知道現在那個在處理案子的一審檢察官全國多少人知道嗎"},{"start":12203.712,"end":12206.533,"text":"總共到去年底是1065人,這個還包括了公訴檢察官、執行科檢察官,也就是說不是每一個都在辦案子的。"},{"start":12219.019,"end":12238.995,"text":"那在辦案子的檢察官將來要面對疫情延長到一年,到時候人力上面會不會有很大的問題,這個是我很擔心的。所以我希望一件事情就是說,當年我們把軍審判法修改,我們從現在再往當年去看,有點類似頭痛一頭腳痛一腳。"},{"start":12240.536,"end":12261.006,"text":"所以就把整個就丟給普通法院,但是我始終認為制度沒有問題,軍事審判沒有問題,問題是出在人。但是當時就是這樣把他整個就是處理掉了。那我有一個建議就是說,我希望因為現在的檢察官要面對國內的太多"},{"start":12261.98,"end":12269.727,"text":"事案案件像詐欺罪暴徵那警察官都負荷不了了那有關這個軍事的部分是不是也可以嚴密"},{"start":12270.865,"end":12297.294,"text":"看看有沒有可能把一些軍法的一些案件把它轉回去由軍事審判法來去追溯。譬如說像暴行犯上、抗命、洩漏機密或是一些影響社會重大的案件或是像有些酒駕毒品還是由軍事審判去處理不是什麼都丟給基層的檢察官。我跟兩位說明一下"},{"start":12298.114,"end":12312.68,"text":"現在基層第一審的檢察官以及法官其實都受不了因為我自己做過20年檢察官我很清楚現在的案件量不要再講裁判品質了人民不信任司法是剛剛好而已所以"},{"start":12313.32,"end":12333.283,"text":"我們可以研擬一下,看能不能夠把這個轉回去由軍事審判來處理,再麻煩部長能夠處理好。是,我跟委員幾秒鐘我就跟您說出,這案子陸海空軍刑法的修正,跟這個軍人權益的管理的辦法,我們要對決一定理好,而且已經呈到行政院去,院議通過以後會經過大院來審判。"},{"start":12334.244,"end":12343.876,"text":"那再來齁,最後就是說我希望就是我們也可以考量九三軍人節到底要不要來放假,或者是那個第一線戰鬥人員加薪的問題麻煩。謝謝吳委員真心的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告院會,我們上午質詢到此為止。"},{"start":12354.161,"end":12363.887,"text":"本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案,就不進行臨時提案之處理,下午2時30分繼續開會,進行外交及國防組織質詢,現在休息。"},{"start":21612.059,"end":21619.564,"text":"報告委員會,現在我們繼續開會,進行外交及國防之質詢。接下來請徐委員巧心發言、質詢。"},{"start":21643.423,"end":21661.58,"text":"院長好,我想有請我們陳建仁院長以及國防部邱部長。請陳院長國防部備詢。學員午安。午安。那我想先請教一下我們陳院長,最近呢晚上睡得怎麼樣?"},{"start":21663.081,"end":21683.132,"text":"我一向睡眠都很好。謝謝。一向睡眠都很好。我想最近大家都很關心我們的部會首長還有我們院長睡得好不好。主要是因為先前在質詢的過程當中邱國正部長有告訴我們兩岸相當的危險所以他晚上有的時候很煩惱會睡不著那想必這個陳建仁院長沒有這樣子的困擾"},{"start":21683.752,"end":21703.881,"text":"但我們今天要問的是CNN的著名的評論員他的意見他談到了說呢現在台灣已經是世界上最危險的地方現在變得更加危險那所以我們才會很好奇說陳建仁院長怎麼看待目前兩岸的情勢有感覺到CNN的評論員所說的變得更加危險嗎"},{"start":21705.744,"end":21725.761,"text":"在COVID-19的時間曾經訪問過我,我也知道他很關心臺灣的安全,算是朋友。我想他最主要的呼籲就是希望我們臺灣要提高警覺,然後美國跟其他的盟友應該要來協助臺灣做很好的我們臺灣的國防自衛。"},{"start":21735.246,"end":21749.591,"text":"您說得很好但是呢我們想看到的是確實有很多的各種的問題比方說最近有一件呢跟國安有點疑慮相關的事情媒體剛才才披露Google Earth這一波呢台灣西部做了一個圖資的更新"},{"start":21750.111,"end":21778.275,"text":"我們可以看到更新之後那可以看到西側國防部這個過去協調模糊化的高斯軍事建築包含是國防部、空軍司令部、海軍司令部等等都相當的清楚包含整建中的北部龜山愛國者獄被鎮地、獄部屬M1、A2戰車的大崗營區、楊梅飛彈營區、苗栗西湖飛彈基地以及台中清泉崗新建萬建庫等等都在圖資上面可以顯示的相當清楚"},{"start":21778.695,"end":21784.17,"text":"我想問一下部長我們有沒有掌握這個狀況以及後續有沒有要進行任何的處置。"},{"start":21786.401,"end":21813.379,"text":"國防安全是大家很關切課題,像現在科技那麼發達,不管是衛星徵兆等等,這些圖資都很容易顯露出來。但我有一個作為,通常我會跟這些單位,不管是Google這些單位,會有去跟他們做一個協議,有關這個機敏處所,他會把它給遮蓋掉。那目前這個西部圖資的部分我們會跟Google來協調,希望他們能夠隱藏起來保護我們的國防安全嗎?"},{"start":21813.959,"end":21818.361,"text":"除了這個圖資之外呢,這個我們都很關心剛剛院長說得很好,那但是呢我想蘇丹紅的問題到現在還沒有解決,那包含是已經流向軍方了"},{"start":21836.607,"end":21856.25,"text":"老共還沒有打過來,我們先開始擔心國軍的飲食。蘇丹紅議題當時在食安專報的時候就已經延燒了,那時候行政院還講得很大聲說蔡政府任內沒有系統性的食安問題,可現在蘇丹紅的議題都已經流到軍隊裡面了,陸軍的後勤指揮部也有買到了。"},{"start":21856.51,"end":21856.81,"text":"謝謝委員的很好的問題"},{"start":21878.183,"end":21878.903,"text":"一個月內你們自己評估會不會太長?"},{"start":21900.754,"end":21928.83,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們現在為什麼會要繼續再來做這個檢查呢?最主要是因為我們往前推6個月啦。往前推6個月。因為我們從12月開始就有逐批檢查。那我們往前推6個月的這一些,我們都做逐批檢查。所以現在我要求他們要加速的檢查以後,把前6個月的這一些萬一有…可是我們已經談好久了,那前6個月的檢查目前已經完成?"},{"start":21929.09,"end":21953.946,"text":"因為前6個月的這一個部分以前都是抽樣檢查叫抽批的檢查那我們現在要求他一個一個都檢查出來所以如果這樣檢查出來的話可能還是會有漏網之魚但是我跟委員報告因為我們現在已經掌握了這十幾家的這一個同一個家族的這一些公司所以你們會針對這6個月去做調查"},{"start":21954.366,"end":21977.24,"text":"所以我們實際上現在對這幾家就只要有這幾家的產品我們就會提前下架所以我們有把握這個下架的時間可能會更提前那對於近期包含是蘇丹紅他變成是各種不同的產品流入到市面以及軍隊裡面行政院有沒有考慮向國人表達建議好 這個蘇丹紅確實在"},{"start":21979.745,"end":22005.454,"text":"這整個的早期的這個輸入的情況是用逐批的而且我們都是請他退貨而不是銷毀這個我們也發現我們這樣的做法需要有再精進所以我們現在就要求這一個逐批而且非法進口這個非法食品的這個廠商我們已經禁止他再進口那未來在邊境發現有這樣的情形我們也就會銷毀"},{"start":22006.874,"end":22025.133,"text":"那我想問消費者的權益保障部分,院長消費者權益保障的部分,過去使用到蘇丹紅的,那相關的消費者權益保障包含是退貨啊等等的,我們行政院有什麼樣的要求跟處理?有的拿得去他說你沒有發票不讓他退貨?"},{"start":22025.894,"end":22041.307,"text":"我們這個部分會來要求相關的第二層第三層的這一些食品公司都要接受這個相關的退貨如果沒有的話他是有刑責的因為這些他們如果不下架他們是有刑責"},{"start":22042.228,"end":22063.183,"text":"國人跟我們軍方的弟兄表達歉意的這個部分目前行政院不考慮是嗎還是你們我的意思是說請問你們會考慮跟社會外界還有包含我們國人國軍弟兄因為過去整個檢查的過程當中或許不夠嚴謹所產生導致於系統性的蘇丹紅的問題跟國人致歉嗎"},{"start":22064.403,"end":22088.63,"text":"這個部分我們昨天就已經有表示我們在以往的這個對於這些違法廠商的篩檢確實沒有逐批檢查所以我們有所要求精進然後要改進我們確實需要改進院長認為要改進主席我想請那個主席院長我想要請那個外交部長我們先謝謝麻煩請外交部委員謝謝謝謝部長請外交部謝謝"},{"start":22098.001,"end":22124.711,"text":"我想要請問幾個跟臺灣民主基金會相關的問題請問呢這個基金會按照我們的組織人事規章是由誰提名後任命執行長?依照規章的這個規定是由那個執行長是由董事長提名由董事會通過那董事長呢按照過去的慣例是由立法院長來擔任嗎?有沒有像民主基金會瞭解新國會之後新任的董事會什麼時候會召開改選?"},{"start":22126.407,"end":22152.95,"text":"有關於董事會召開的時間我們正在跟那個即將接任董事長的立法院院長正在協商當中。好那再來我們想要問的是台灣民主基金會是接受我們外交部的補助開放政黨按照比例申請的得票比例申請預算那這些申請有沒有相關的規範例如要要求哪一類型的活動才符合補助的原則我們有沒有審核的機制?"},{"start":22153.872,"end":22159.414,"text":"並沒有很仔細的規範,但是各個政黨他們都自己想要展開。 是由各個政黨認為說他們要進行民主外交的這個過程當中。"},{"start":22176.713,"end":22181.656,"text":"以這個為主以這個為主以這個為主那請問這些補助案補助給政黨的案子您有看過嗎?結案報告您在意嗎?以及就你的了解"},{"start":22204.829,"end":22208.694,"text":"政黨向民主基金會申請的補助它是具有國家機密性的嗎?"},{"start":22209.707,"end":22209.947,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":22239.71,"end":22268.436,"text":"如果有國外的人要來臺灣看我們的選舉的狀況關選OK關選OK但是政黨拿這個經費補助其實去掛羊頭賣狗肉去辦選舉活動您認可嗎我覺得這要看那個他的報告的內容要看報告的內容對不對您先記得這句話那如果發生是政黨申請補助然後拿去做競選活動後來才發現這件事情我們有任何機制會追回嗎或是會懲罰嗎"},{"start":22270.467,"end":22282.104,"text":"這個基金會的操作我不是很清楚到目前為止那個基金會是獨立運作的那我們也沒有看到這方面的資料獨立運作但是我們政府的錢不應該被拿去政黨作為選舉之用兩位同意嗎?"},{"start":22282.99,"end":22301.817,"text":"如果說委員有這方面的資料交給我們有這方面的資料我們就現在讓大家來看看這個第一個2023年的國務卿齊建穎核銷補助80萬賴清德當面力邀民進黨國務卿宣誓投入輔選9月投入空戰跟陸戰我們看下一張投影片"},{"start":22302.677,"end":22325.759,"text":"二零二三年青年對話行動和蕭補助一百萬元在新聞上面都直接講是在搶選票鎖定KOL20人超盤搶年輕選票賴清德青年對話行動三月開跑下一張投影片二零二三民主台灣客家峰會和蕭補助62萬元也是新聞下標直接寫搶攻客家選票再下一張"},{"start":22326.963,"end":22342.9,"text":"民主、和平、兵推贏100萬,裡面寫什麼呢?你們直接就講了,這個裡面的直接就講大型營隊兵推贏是要幹嘛呢?復選活動,下一頁。這些都是由執行長核定的對吧?"},{"start":22343.752,"end":22344.573,"text":"如果剛才那幾個案子像那個"},{"start":22364.753,"end":22367.195,"text":"國務卿就是民進黨的青年軍,然後他們來參加活動就是去服選的。"},{"start":22381.71,"end":22384.311,"text":"國務卿不是只不是輔選的團隊,國務卿是一個民進黨的一個團隊,然後是年輕人的團隊,他們有沒有參與輔選?"},{"start":22407.199,"end":22412.405,"text":"院長您覺得我們想要了解他們有沒有濫用我們的補助的公帑去做輔選之事所以我向對方要求提供結案報告您覺得他們應該要提供嗎?"},{"start":22430.263,"end":22449.471,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是民主基金會他是獨立運作的一個當然但是裡面用了公帑如果拿去選舉這就會產生很大的問題所以我們希望了解他有沒有濫用所以我們向你們去調閱了請問可不可以提供結案報告結果我們得到的答案是"},{"start":22450.511,"end":22464.587,"text":"因為各政黨計劃具機敏性,無法提供政黨所送的結案報告。你們覺得這樣合理嗎?如果我們沒有辦法看結案報告,我要怎麼知道他當時送的計劃進來有沒有符合補助要點?"},{"start":22465.188,"end":22469.99,"text":"我剛跟委員報告過民主基金會是一個獨立運作的單位那在今年下半年在審核民主基金會預算的時候那我想這個委員可以提出來"},{"start":22491.817,"end":22492.017,"text":"我想這樣子"},{"start":22516.509,"end":22521.371,"text":"最後我問一下您覺得這樣子的政黨申請補助之後的結案報告他是涉及怎麼樣方面的機敏性不能讓立法委員來做調閱"},{"start":22541.252,"end":22563.857,"text":"這個應該由民主基金會那邊來回答沒有我是問你們覺得沒有那他不提供給我們那我問你們是你們認不認為這有機敏性嗎你們認不認為這涉及所謂的政黨或是國家的機密這是你們的看法這跟他無關吶剛剛跟委員報告那個民主基金會他是一個獨立運作的這個單位我聽過了我聽過了我問的是你覺得那個民主基金會有很多的"},{"start":22571.638,"end":22573.199,"text":"謝謝徐委員巧心的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第4位陳委員永康質詢。"},{"start":22605.236,"end":22634.453,"text":"有請陳院長、邱部長。麻煩請陳院長、國安部備詢。謝謝。陳委員午安。恭喜你當選立法委員。首先我感謝陳院長在本席就職之際贈送衛冕喉舌墨寶以珍,現在掛在辦公室。我回想8年前我在外交部"},{"start":22635.083,"end":22635.363,"text":"本席"},{"start":22663.397,"end":22685.154,"text":"這個軍旅生涯40餘年我也一直在懷抱追求和平的理念奉信以國家安全保衛人民力行國家安全作為終極目標而努力也看到院長近期長期被尋的辛勞我覺得在這個"},{"start":22687.454,"end":22711.64,"text":"質詢過程中間您可以放鬆一些我會提出一些建言跟討論請您做參考因為本席的目前專注於國防外交事務的監督審查就議案全責他與性質的覺知融合國防外交作為國家安全的信念我們希望把這個信念"},{"start":22713.441,"end":22716.209,"text":"與價值觀用一個示儀的方法來討論付諸實踐。那麼在"},{"start":22719.946,"end":22743.878,"text":"今年的2月14日的荊下水道發生三無漁船,因為海巡署的船艇在執法過程、追逐過程以及漁船的迴避過程,原來是企圖攔截、臨檢、登船,但是因為他做迴避,因此產生擦撞、翻船,最後產生兩位不幸犧牲漁民的結果。"},{"start":22745.668,"end":22765.846,"text":"這個過程目前都在西部調查,我們不做這個預測也不做論述,但是各位你現在所看到的這個圖表就是我們花了很多的精神把這個整個的過程中間所有引述的法案以及它的背景資料"},{"start":22766.96,"end":22786.002,"text":"那麼做出一個流程事實上我們用現在的科技已經幫他整合成一個資料庫所以希望未來的每一個單位並不是只是引述81年7月31日公布的兩岸條例那麼引述的第29條第32條"},{"start":22788.91,"end":22806.238,"text":"實際上在這個裡面我們總共列選了14項,並不包括1982年聯合國海洋法公約裡面所謂從3海里提升到12海里的領海基線以及每一個國家的領海權它的這個範圍。"},{"start":22808.106,"end":22823.659,"text":"但是基於這個流程中間有過去動員勘亂法的這個終止那麼也有戰地政務的取消也有人民條例的增設修正所以它實際上是一環扣一環"},{"start":22824.6,"end":22851.508,"text":"那麼過去我們的一般的這個政府的機制啊在回答問題的時候都是針對單獨一下引述某一個條例那麼我們現在做出這個流程過來未來結合資料庫所有的法案就掛在下面那麼在跨部會協調甚至解釋的時候可以做一個更清楚的論述就不至於產生部分的疏漏"},{"start":22851.988,"end":22852.008,"text":"﹚廣告﹚"},{"start":22867.403,"end":22896.482,"text":"那麼一、據國家安全法實例第25條啊﹖所謂的海岸管制區是由國防部會同內政部根據海防實務的需要就台灣地區海岸的海水低潮線以其高潮線算起500公尺以內以及近岸沙洲來劃定之但是這個文字實際上是非常的複雜那麼我們的海圖啊所有的校正是由海軍的大氣海洋局來執行"},{"start":22897.363,"end":22919.974,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":22919.974,"end":22920.274,"text":"﹚第11屆第1會期第4次會議"},{"start":22938.251,"end":22938.291,"text":"：第11屆第1會議"},{"start":22955.316,"end":22955.336,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":22970.486,"end":22991.561,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":22992.236,"end":22992.796,"text":"司法部長"},{"start":23019.002,"end":23019.202,"text":"委員．完整會議"},{"start":23039.987,"end":23040.307,"text":"所跟委員報告"},{"start":23070.845,"end":23095.738,"text":"他是共同圖像是我們軍中很注重的因為這個我共同圖像運用啊就包含了陸海空三軍就同樣的狀況在這種共同圖像上看到的話是同樣的一個地點的不過有這種錯遙那現在要把這個各部位融在一道這是一個很好的一個做法因為畢竟我們這個國家安全啊不光是國防部單獨的責任"},{"start":23096.998,"end":23112.407,"text":"我也不把這個時間推給其他人,但最起碼各部會之間相互協調合作,共同來維護我們國家安全,這需要一個共通的點,而這個點也就當中也包含了共同圖像,也是一個很重要的東西。"},{"start":23113.027,"end":23140.844,"text":"我們會按照這個狀況會跟各部會我們會建議不管是國安會或者院裡面我會建議要召開一個必要的一個協調會怎麼樣把我們國軍目前有的共同圖像的做法既然能夠保密又能夠運用很廣泛這個我覺得是將來很努力的要努力的一個方向但我們很樂見也期望可以達到國家安全大家共同維護的這個境地"},{"start":23142.621,"end":23160.837,"text":"謝謝委員真的很認真我學習了學了很多真的很感動也特別感謝邱部長在這上面的大力支持因為我了解我們現在目前的政府並沒有一個完整的國家安全戰略雖然"},{"start":23162.619,"end":23170.824,"text":"美國在這個國家安全戰略上,每任總統就職都會提出。日本在2013年也提出了他的國家安全戰略,就是法治化。"},{"start":23182.951,"end":23207.582,"text":"我特別在這邊向各位解釋一下這個發展的流程是經過怎麼樣的路徑怎麼樣來收斂首先我們是要看全球環境影響力跟趨勢它包括了區域的威脅有盟的變質國際組織國際法律資訊安全氣候變遷能源短缺"},{"start":23209.062,"end":23210.804,"text":"國內影響勢力趨勢包括經濟情況"},{"start":23226.718,"end":23246.689,"text":"社會的需求我們官僚體系的結構政黨的形態資訊的安全能源的需求媒體輿論宗教文化人口結構環境保護國會的結構這兩個匯集起來通通影響我們國家安全戰略的制定"},{"start":23247.609,"end":23276.781,"text":"但是因為沒有國家安全戰略的制定所以行政院在橫向協商有關執法單位有關國防單位甚至海圖甚至領港甚至是航圖那這個都是各司其職但是呢就像剛才邱部長講的並沒有能夠融合變成統一就是說大家有一個共同基準的概念在一個相同的"},{"start":23278.479,"end":23278.499,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":23295.518,"end":23311.445,"text":"但是經濟政策、能源政策、資安政策、人口政策,它整個這個氣象融合起來會形塑國家安全戰略,它的目的是促進繁榮、確保民主、強化安全。"},{"start":23312.125,"end":23341.033,"text":"因此在現階段在下任府接替之前那麼本席期許院長能夠朝這邊共同努力先朝這個方向推動那麼我把國家安全戰略它的一個施行方法在這邊向大家做一個說明跟報告我們現在因為沒有國家安全戰略所以在現況上產生了什麼呢就是跨部會在資源分配不均"},{"start":23343.235,"end":23370.307,"text":"協商比較困難策略執行不太容易法制不夠周全政策不容易同步那麼同時難以持續因為換這個官員換幕僚他沒有一個上級政策的指導很多東西就做了調整那麼我們預期的目標國家安全戰略的目標就是確保國家安全與兩岸的和平穩定"},{"start":23371.84,"end":23392.367,"text":"那麼我們如果制定國家安全戰略我們的行動重心在政治面是趨利避害在和平對等的前提下堅守民主自由的體制在經濟上是國際上也是互利互補在公平正義的條件下促進經貿與投資的成長在軍事上要強軍勝戰"},{"start":23398.018,"end":23413.856,"text":"也是備戰、能戰、止戰在國家安全的前提下控管風險解決爭端在社會上我們要鄰居共識在國防民生合一的前提下強固基建堅韌的民心"},{"start":23416.294,"end":23438.633,"text":"那麼在這個執行的這個手段上面第一個是可承擔的前提下也就是說我們政府的複合下反映民眾的意志與決心跨部會協調這裡面還包括國際友邦及軍事這個友好同盟的關係打造我們國家和平發展的環境"},{"start":23439.997,"end":23459.373,"text":"那麼在可適用的前提下,平息當前與過去決策的落差,確認與國家安全有關的法案,組織與資源不足的地方以及相關的限制因素。我們目前有國家安全法,裡面的細則都有對國內的要求。"},{"start":23460.114,"end":23477.584,"text":"但是對於我們自己部會之間協調合作分攤的責任沒有明確的制定所以最後是在可信待前提下要設定預期的目標以及可資助的能力包括量能這個權責"},{"start":23480.145,"end":23497.927,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":23497.987,"end":23526.562,"text":"透過院長的指導在橫向協調上給予各部會的資源也就是說責任的分攤跟有限的資源分配以及反映的時間它都是有極限的因此如果沒有一個完整的概念在協調過程中國際情勢、國內情勢、兩岸情勢它產生的變化有的時候我們的決策是跟不上所以這一點是需要大家共同的努力"},{"start":23527.472,"end":23548.385,"text":"那麼最後面一頁我顯示一個共同圖像這張圖各位可以看到包含東北亞朝鮮半島東海日本防空識別區台海防空識別區還有中國大陸在2013年11月23日他發布的東海防空識別區"},{"start":23550.505,"end":23566.885,"text":"中國大陸是國際民航組織的成員,所以他把這個防空識別區在國際的航圖上已經標註上去了。我們也希望國防部未來把這個東海防空識別區也能夠標註上去。"},{"start":23567.671,"end":23567.691,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":23585.555,"end":23615.555,"text":"﹚"},{"start":23616.135,"end":23633.048,"text":"因此很多的定義要在這個法條裡面做略為說明我們前一陣子大家國內都關心503航線其實503是個航路它是有一定的寬度飛機南下北上它有一定的距離"},{"start":23633.969,"end":23633.989,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":23660.026,"end":23660.146,"text":"﹚第11屆第4次會議"},{"start":23684.819,"end":23704.909,"text":"黃岩島,我們又新做民主礁。最近並沒有看到我們政府在這上面表達我們的政策跟我們的立場。那麼尤其是在南邊的所謂的人愛礁,現在中共跟菲律賓這個衝突算是蠻大的。但是中國大陸現在就是運用灰色區塊。"},{"start":23706.01,"end":23733.052,"text":"他用他的海上民兵以及他的所謂海上警察其實他的海警就是coast guard問題是他的海警並不是在一般的政策像政府像屬於非軍事單位他是屬於中央軍委會所以他利用灰色區塊消耗鄰近國家的有限的這個力量那這個是值得我們要注意的"},{"start":23734.192,"end":23748.037,"text":"由於這個圖塊在下一步各位看到我們的所有的國家安全是先由社會的堅韌、民心的安定、經濟的繁榮"},{"start":23749.224,"end":23768.746,"text":"﹚"},{"start":23769.175,"end":23769.235,"text":"臨時提案會議"},{"start":23794.002,"end":23794.282,"text":"謝謝委員 這個很完整而且很宏觀"},{"start":23818.144,"end":23842.385,"text":"嚴密的這樣的一個說明國家這個安全體系我覺得很學習很多那從這裡我也完全同意實際上一個國家的安定除了軍事的外交的兩岸的以外還要有社會的經濟的這個我完全同意那目前在國家安全的這個體制上是有國安會在做通盤的這個整合"},{"start":23842.845,"end":23867.079,"text":"但是行政院這邊也會來認真的參考委員所提的這些意見而且我們也會請同仁在國家安全體系的這個相關會議上把這麼好的很這個宏觀而且很細緻的這個建議在這個會議上討論那站在行政院的立場在還沒有這樣討論之前我們也會讓"},{"start":23867.899,"end":23868.219,"text":"請部長簡單說明一下"},{"start":23881.215,"end":23906.462,"text":"報告委員,剛才那個委員講得很精闢,事實上我在這邊聽了以後歸納成兩個重點。第一個沒有錯,我們按照我們的大戰略延續下來講的話,一定要有國家戰略,才有軍事戰略,這下面一環。而軍事戰略又分成一個略速鬥技具,作戰區等等。我跟你講我們講的軍事術語一般人很難去了解,但我簡單的講,"},{"start":23907.682,"end":23923.862,"text":"我們大學裡有一句話,物有本末,事有終始,之所先後則盡道矣。 有大戰略,國家戰略是大的,是主,然後它是先,要先有了以後,後續延伸出來。 所以我們現在目前聽來好像"},{"start":23925.223,"end":23948.582,"text":"還沒有一個投出來,事實上我們國家在國防政策或國家安全方面都有一個很清楚的敘述,就為了要防衛國家安全。要在軍事方面的話,我跟委員報告,我也相信講說我們略出鬥技具的概念,戰略、戰鬥、然後這個戰技、戰具等等,它由上向下是一個指導的。"},{"start":23949.443,"end":23978.36,"text":"要有這個戰略才會有戰術要有戰術才會有戰鬥但由下往上的是支持你想你沒有一個好的一個戰距你的戰績沒辦法發揮所以這個關係也很清楚但是概念有了以後所以跟各部會是今天協調我們一定會做一個我們該做哪一部分貴部應該要強調強化哪一個方面我想這樣的話可以把這個目標定的很明確各部會作業起來也很明快第一個"},{"start":23979,"end":24000.715,"text":"第二、剛剛委員講了很多句共同圖像,尤其東海防空識別區沒有錯,它都有一個來龍才會有這個去脈的。 那我們目前國軍在這個每個圖上面,東海識別區防空識別區有話傳,因為話傳我們才發覺,它跟日本跟韓國會有一些啊,可以重疊甚而是一行,就可以貼到的。"},{"start":24001.155,"end":24024.741,"text":"所以以至於造成東北亞跟東海這個地方甚至於西太平洋方面會有很多這個啊這個看格就這個原因那這要透過一個國際管道跟我們平常啊各部會這個努力大家共同圖像有了認知有了意念一致了國家以後作業相互啊要合作項目等等就很就很快明確我這跟委員處說明"},{"start":24026.657,"end":24053.574,"text":"最近美國蘭德公司2024發布的那個威脅, 裡面特別強調了一個共同圖像,COP,Common Operational Picture。那麼今天早晨本黨陳玉珍委員在問政提到金下水稻的時候也講到要有一個清晰的苗籍跟法條的引述。我想經由這個院長剛才的陳述以及邱部長的解釋,"},{"start":24054.474,"end":24076.467,"text":"我們今後在跨部會的協商、橫向協調上一定可以做得更為精進。那麼也感謝今天兩位給我的回應。我想我們共同努力,因為國家安全是需要整合全國的民心。在有限的資源、有限的時間反應下,我們要做出適當的決策。"},{"start":24079.568,"end":24104.035,"text":"時間有限,資源有限,大家共同努力。 也感謝兩位的回答,謝謝。謝謝陳委員永康的質詢。 也謝謝陳院長的悲訓。報告委員會,外交及國防組織,喔對不起,下面一位是第5號楊耀委員,他改以書面提出。"},{"start":24105.465,"end":24119.461,"text":"請行政院書面答覆並列入記錄刊登公報。報告委員會外交及國防組織質詢已詢答完畢。我們現在休息10分鐘。休息之後我們進行經濟組織質詢。現在休息。"},{"start":24729.207,"end":24743.326,"text":"報告委員會現在繼續開會進行經紀組之質詢。陳委員、俊宇之質詢以書面提出。請行政院以書面答覆並列入記錄刊登公報。現在我們請邱委員、鄭君質詢。"},{"start":24765.612,"end":24768.874,"text":"我們有請我們陳院長麻煩請陳院長備選邱委員王恭喜你當選立委謝謝我想請問陳院長你知道我是哪裡的立法委員嗎苗栗苗栗謝謝院長你當過苗栗市市長嘛你對苗栗很有貢獻謝謝當然我們是出生於地方"},{"start":24794.315,"end":24819.264,"text":"有一些問題當然在這邊就請教我們院長那麼我們對於這個桃竹苗大細股的一個方案我想我們非常的關心那麼當然我看起來目前現在這個計畫是一個雛形那必須還有很多的這個計畫來支撐那麼我想請教院長什麼時候我們才會有一個具體的一個時程"},{"start":24820.82,"end":24822.641,"text":"我順便問一下國發會,我看到今年編列了200億的預算"},{"start":24848.692,"end":24860.339,"text":"兩百億的預算那我想我們具體的部分是哪些?這兩百億是用在哪裡?您是說苗栗的部分是不是?不是,就是整個桃竹苗大細股計畫"},{"start":24861.654,"end":24882.825,"text":"他不只200億啦,他是整個現在的大方案他是一個上位計畫那下面有各個各部位他要執行的一些相關計畫跟預算那比如說交通的部分他有一些交通納到這裡面來以後那我們就是要管考他的一些相關進度啦那比如說他有一些已經綜合規劃已經過了"},{"start":24885.171,"end":24887.032,"text":"我看到我們苗栗的產業園區規劃是145公頃是吧?"},{"start":24887.032,"end":24889.634,"text":"是我想院長新竹跟桃園是多少比例是多少?"},{"start":24916.597,"end":24942.169,"text":"以目前來講因為現在就是說是這樣就是說我們園區的不管是科學園區或產業園區基本上是採取滾動式的部分那看有產業上的需求第二個是地方政府他如果盤點出來準備好了我們目前苗栗縣我們提出了這個我們大概預估有900公頃的這個產業用地那我看到我們總共的比例是1200公頃"},{"start":24943.69,"end":24966.48,"text":"苗栗市苗栗縣只有145公頃,那我在這邊也希望我們的院長能夠在這個部分多加斟酌考量,讓我們苗栗能夠這個900公頃的土地能夠更有效的來運用。後續會跟苗栗縣政府比較積極的溝通,看看哪一個部分他真的準備好了。"},{"start":24966.92,"end":24967.781,"text":"我希望我們行政院這邊能夠盡快因為"},{"start":24996.798,"end":24996.818,"text":"委員長"},{"start":25013.642,"end":25029.749,"text":"國發會我們這邊來協助希望我們苗栗能夠規劃更多的這樣一個土地讓我們一些產業能夠進駐來帶動苗栗的經濟好不好委員提到了後龍因為過去來講縣政府他有抱鞭想要做成這個產業園區嘛那當然"},{"start":25031.738,"end":25039.023,"text":"您剛剛講到這個交通的部分,那現在交通的部分您怎麼處理?尤其是第二交流道還有我們這個楊梅道都有納入計畫嗎?"},{"start":25059.874,"end":25064.359,"text":"委員在check的時候我跟委員報告一下實際上在這個桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的過程當中我們很希望"},{"start":25080.333,"end":25090.555,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":25090.939,"end":25091.339,"text":"我再請問我們的72縣接61縣"},{"start":25115.769,"end":25116.409,"text":"因為今天我們交通"},{"start":25144.488,"end":25166.811,"text":"交通部長沒有來不過在這一個所有的整個大細股計畫當中我們當時的規劃當中就是有橫向的還有縱向的是變成一個網路那細節的部分也許在我們再請交通部長因為我看到我們整個計畫不論是在桃園或者是新竹"},{"start":25167.612,"end":25169.213,"text":"我跟您報告就是說當時在整個規劃當中包括賴副總統的想法是"},{"start":25190.663,"end":25195.626,"text":"因為這樣目前我們看到的計畫當然都是集中在竹南頭份那對於苗栗縣整個來講那苗南的地方我也希望院長這邊能夠一併的考量進去苗南的發展也相關的重要因為南邊我們還有一個這個銅鑼科學園區"},{"start":25216.937,"end":25222.323,"text":"我剛才提到互相支援,像鯉魚潭的水也是從南部送到苗栗去,所以互相的有支援可以讓地方一定夠。"},{"start":25238.537,"end":25258.868,"text":"不要虧待苗栗啦好不好,因為苗栗真的是為地方,苗栗有5個水庫,其實他限制非常多,發展也非常的困難。那我希望我們的院長還有我們的國會這邊能夠一併的來考量。謝謝。那另外我們第二個,第二題我們請我們的王美花部長。請經濟部備刑。"},{"start":25267.444,"end":25281.083,"text":"部長好,我今天看到新聞有點名,我們事務發部的部長唐鳳,交通部我們的王國才,經濟部長王美花,以及前農業部長陳吉仲。"},{"start":25283.769,"end":25284.75,"text":"我每天就是努力把事情做好。"},{"start":25303.959,"end":25333.066,"text":"那我想對我來說對台灣怎麼樣台灣的經濟做得更有韌性讓台灣在全世界越來越重要這個是我一直在思考的問題希望部長認真認真一點來執行所有的這個業務那當然不要變成我們賴清德總統的這個絆腳石可以嗎他不會啦他是最好的幫手啦可是在我本席看來我們看到4月份店家要調漲"},{"start":25334.593,"end":25338.37,"text":"那我覺得部長是覺得這個破口不夠大還是怎麼樣?"},{"start":25339.341,"end":25362.448,"text":"事實上一直以來這個國際的燃料成本的大幅上漲確實是造成台電的虧損那事實上在過去這一兩年台電已經吸收了非常多的一個成本現在主要就是說這樣的一個每一年我們當然優先都爭取政府的這個資金跟補助我看到了我也知道我們台電現在目前虧損是94%了"},{"start":25371.152,"end":25386.863,"text":"那我看到我們這一次調升這個是330度以下的民生用電部分那我有推算過120度以下用電調漲那每個月大概是9塊錢那382萬戶我換算一下來一年多收了4億那121度到330度"},{"start":25391.156,"end":25397.562,"text":"這個用戶我們一樣調整了5%全台灣有526萬戶一年多收21.5億也就是說我們這一波調整電價大概是能夠為台電多收25億是這樣吧"},{"start":25407.493,"end":25433.391,"text":"所有的這個電價怎麼調漲的公式目前都在電價小組裡面工作區還在討論當中因為我算到這個數字不是很多我們為什麼要去做這件事情我就覺得很奇怪那相對於一些用電的大戶比如說一些我們高壓那個特高壓用電的一些大戶這些我們應該要針對這個部分或者我們以前"},{"start":25434.937,"end":25443.578,"text":"這個台電我們去年在花了900億來購買綠電這個部分你如果電價這邊部分來節省一點是不是更有效果"},{"start":25444.477,"end":25450.741,"text":"綠電的部分事實上現在已經逐漸的那個綠電原來賺購讓台電來賺購的部分目前其實已經都會讓他綠電直接賣給這個用戶因為臺灣的這個大用戶也需要綠電所以這個趨勢呢我們把綠電的產業做起來綠電的環境做起來但是之後就會慢慢去直接賣給這個企業不用由台電來收購來賺購那所以這個是綠電發展過程當一定要的"},{"start":25474.5,"end":25476.841,"text":"委員這個我來回答一下可以嗎?基本上我們這一次的電價調整當然要看電價審議委員會來做"},{"start":25503.53,"end":25514.566,"text":"那是呢我們也會給他提供一些意見那這個意見呢就是我們做很精緻的調整比如說這個產業呢在發達的過程當中那我們可能的加的都會比較多一點啊如果這個產業呢"},{"start":25515.658,"end":25542.499,"text":"目前還在蕭條的情況下就會加的少一點那民間的用電也是按照他的用電量會來做很精細的調整那以往在2022年2023年的時候我們調整8%11%的時候也都是用這樣很精緻的調整所以當時呢確實是物價的影響會下降啦我們現在很重點不是在於漲不漲電價這個事情其實我們更關心的是通膨的問題"},{"start":25543.52,"end":25564.259,"text":"你知道漲一度電會增加多少通貨嗎?所以我們才會盡量的讓這個電價的調整不要像國外,國外都是一次就漲足然後政府再補貼那個漲足其實這是以前我覺得是民進黨執政以來一開始就開始動漲了對不對"},{"start":25567.176,"end":25570.039,"text":"我跟委員報告一下為什麼現在後面這一段時間才調就是二、五戰爭以後全球的染料價錢大量的增加那這個大量增加才造成了台電3800億的這個"},{"start":25590.64,"end":25608.933,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":25609.013,"end":25609.253,"text":"現在還是要讓沈議員會來討論"},{"start":25630.17,"end":25657.806,"text":"你盡快來準備好不好然後好的時候給本席資料不過委員您關心的這個不要引起通膨的問題然後呢一定要來幫助這個比較弱勢的這一些我們都會請這個審議委員會來考慮啦那我這樣講啦齁你把資料做好然後再給我好不好是不要像這次蘇丹紅的事情一樣出了事情再來解決我想這個是非常不負責任的齁"},{"start":25659.315,"end":25679.843,"text":"當然我們也有懷疑,其實這是漲電價,當然我們陳院長算是看守內閣,那是不是在520之前我們要幫新政府排除路障,然後背鍋,然後下台,是不是有這個政治的考量?沒有。"},{"start":25690.281,"end":25718.008,"text":"謝謝秋原政軍的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。麻煩請行政部門秋原所索取的資料進赴秋原辦公室。接下來我們請登記第三位蘇委員清泉質詢。謝謝主席,我們請院長。"},{"start":25718.715,"end":25719.696,"text":"麻煩再請陳院長備選主委我好高興你當選立委好幸好看到你在這裡這個是新科的老兵來院長你現在"},{"start":25737.503,"end":25752.249,"text":"我要請你講一講你對你的內閣的表現,你感覺如何?我感覺我都不敢跟你拍分手啦,但是我的內閣、我的同仁大家都很認真、很努力也過去,你看到我們的經濟成長也好,還是防疫的工作也好,還是農業的發展也好,委員你也很清楚,都有進步"},{"start":25766.983,"end":25781.555,"text":"所以我覺得比較實施大家都在做福國利民的事情,我很感謝他們。這樣啦,今天你每天都報很多,我們經濟部剛才我們的部長有講,但是有缺的問題,再來農的問題,我們的數位部,我們塘鳳網路作戰的問題,還有我們農業部,有很多問題,我們屏東都是農業縣,包括八十多個,"},{"start":25797.401,"end":25820.387,"text":"一、禁止使用、開放萊豬,然後還有一些是斑斑吃食斑,我現在等著不講吃斑,要票票,然後雞蛋的問題,我們交通部違規祭典的問題,不敢大家叫,所以這都是小破口、大破口,這件事就講極了,所以"},{"start":25823.168,"end":25823.248,"text":"主席"},{"start":25842.921,"end":25842.941,"text":"農業部長"},{"start":25867.85,"end":25896.244,"text":"委員好你有沒有認同陳其中給你帶了很多很多的麻煩我想我們陳前部長本身在過去這七八年來其實他做了非常多過去三四十年來沒做的一些農業政策的一個改革好我現在開始講我們的屏東縣我們屏東縣的我們全台灣的農業人口包括農業漁業加起來差不多八十萬將近八十一萬"},{"start":25897.591,"end":25908.214,"text":"平東縣就佔了38萬,所以農業、漁業、養殖等等對平東縣來講是很重的,重中之重。我們的總統就是,現在總統就是我們平東榜首的人,但是我不覺得你們照顧我們平東的農機民,沒什麼在照顧。"},{"start":25916.63,"end":25916.77,"text":"我...我...我..."},{"start":25945.287,"end":25969.935,"text":"來拓展其他的更多的外銷。我們那個韓院長他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他也很認真,他"},{"start":25972.005,"end":25993.878,"text":"我跟全國議會前理事長黃一誠我們一邊還要試包括水質管理履歷QR code然後藥檢等等跟屏東科技大學這樣密切一座來一座去那我要跟部長報告就是對岸的海關總署"},{"start":25995.575,"end":25995.595,"text":"現在!"},{"start":26021.311,"end":26030.25,"text":"我們的珍珠班、我們的龍虎班本來一斤、一台斤都差不多一百塊、一百塊、一百塊、二百塊,最近已經升到一百塊、兩百塊。"},{"start":26032.705,"end":26036.927,"text":"我告訴你我用報告喔,那9萬的部分喔,大概,我們屏東市最主要的,大概面積大概有1400多公頃,啊那個產值過去齁,因為"},{"start":26058.277,"end":26075.302,"text":"中共的總統那陣緊急醫療其實包括委員一起協助我們農民改善那個養殖的這些環境然後我們也把這樣子一個環境跟中國那邊去提交一些相關的一個改進的措施可是他們都沒有回應我們雖然說他現在開7間"},{"start":26078.183,"end":26078.203,"text":"臨時報告"},{"start":26100.988,"end":26111.119,"text":"我們也剛好趁這個機會讓我們的國內的消費者很喜歡這樣的一個時班,特別是用切片的方式,在美國的方式我想我們的外銷的成長量都蠻高的。"},{"start":26115.708,"end":26119.17,"text":"我對酒吧我是有夠用心的,所以我是要在農業部,我們的那個月數要高一點,"},{"start":26145.642,"end":26160.791,"text":"當然會把這些加速把它擴增,我們最近有在...對,我們也一直在努力,對希望議會主要好好的來幫忙啦,不要...這一定會的...不要...不幫忙再這樣修理,修理等修理賽這比賽"},{"start":26163.763,"end":26180.372,"text":"委員我其實有兩部分,第一就是小台六的部分,我們怎樣來改善,這是很重要的。第二就是剛才說的,我們其實小國國的部分,你如果在外國的市場,他們大部分都吃魚排嘛,filet"},{"start":26181.312,"end":26185.934,"text":"回來的時候就是我們要有處理,當然你說要去哪裡,要去小樓是一個問題,但是你的魚片、魚排的部分,其實小樓算法國有怎麼接受嗎?"},{"start":26196.478,"end":26224.725,"text":"沿洋養殖跟近海養殖佔我們的總餘貨量差不多3成而已,差不多3成,我們的鄉網養殖跟岸上養殖跟內陸養殖佔了70%左右,所以這個養殖對我們來講太重要,而且高頻尤其是屏東一定要加強輔導跟輔導,我希望院長跟部長你們要care這一塊。好,我們一定care,我們全力以赴啦。"},{"start":26226.409,"end":26254.543,"text":"最近有一個我們萬巒百香果還有內埔那邊的百香果我最近都在處理我很高興我們的農養署也有在幫忙就是一個雜誌社還有一個營養師用你們110年的data然後就發表什麼"},{"start":26255.57,"end":26263.375,"text":"百祥國的農藥殘餘是最多的,無所罷到,用110年,我問部長,你有110年的data,啊111、112他都沒有"},{"start":26268.206,"end":26275.691,"text":"我向委員報告,就是說他們網路在報告的是提80年至81年的資料,當然我們也是馬上去查記起的資料,因為百香果那是連續採收型的,平均的農藥的殘留率大概是10%,殘留大概10%,"},{"start":26288.362,"end":26315.34,"text":"那我也知道說屏東因為我們百香果裡面全國大概面積差不多7000到9000公頃雖然說屏東只占5%差不多46公頃可是屏東的百香果非常特殊現在100公頃以上啦對現在占三成三成啦沒有到三成啦大概5%到6%我要跟你報告是院長我們額公尉人額弱的人我們都不希望屏東的那個賓郎"},{"start":26316.401,"end":26324.787,"text":"臨時會議轉做,臨時的臨時一班三千公斤左右,現在都在轉做,這樣百鄉國農委會、農業部要幫他做往事,往事根本都屢屢的,根本都在鋪農業,你把補貼的大家都燒掉,燒一千塊,現在剩四五百,"},{"start":26340.658,"end":26366.358,"text":"我跟委員報告,屏東的百香果非常特殊,因為他有做一些往事在這裡說的,所以他的品質跟比中部的好很多,所以我們一直努力的去做。第二點,我也跟委員報告,因為爆炸看來又一樣,因為那是過去的資料,所以我們馬上去抽檢。我沒有看你幫忙什麼的。對,我跟委員報告。沒有啊,沒有發表新聞啊。因為那時候沒有發表新聞,因為83年那時候,"},{"start":26369.72,"end":26391.689,"text":"我們馬上去抽,到10月1日都從屏東抽20支全部合格,那這個訊息明天就會有新聞稿,因為東西它是用80年的資料嘛,所以我沒辦法說馬上說屏東沒問題,所以我們去抽檢也確定了21個樣品裡面完全合格,表示說我們屏東的農民是非常重視這樣子。"},{"start":26392.449,"end":26393.389,"text":"他們是完全幾乎沒有用農藥嘛對不對部長"},{"start":26417.361,"end":26442.373,"text":"他們有用一些有機脂肪,有部分的農藥,但是農藥一定都沒有在合格的範圍之內。所以我們檢測是為了... 都要靠背體啦。委員我們就要留念啦,來澄清啦。因為寒流啦,灘南風啦,整個邦山、邦寮,還有恆春那邊的荔枝、黃果,都所廢,都沒有補給。那你現在在災害認定的時候,"},{"start":26446.075,"end":26471.806,"text":"我希望部長,你們要從寬認定,一年搞一次。 我了解,我給委員報告。 都吃土你知道嗎,都是吃土的,不是吃飯的。 我給委員報告,因為我本身也是從事農業研究的。 我知道說,我們行政下的,第一我先說內資啦。 內資行政的部分,雖然說它同時對小選台風有稍微影響到,不過小選台風的認定期大概3個月啦。"},{"start":26472.786,"end":26488.657,"text":"我跟我們同仁研究,不一定要用小選颱風,它還有很多因素,對,特別是荔枝的生產會跟它的枝條的成熟度,跟它的溫度,所以我們會來處理。 我跟你說的就是說,它的認病要比較放寬。"},{"start":26493.6,"end":26510.225,"text":"不要讓他們學本無歸,第一個。第二個,就是說你們那個規定,如果幾%、幾%、幾%那個有不合時宜的希望調整一下,專家會議改一改,那個都是辦法而已,那個不是法律,那個都是根據這些細則所定出來的辦法。"},{"start":26512.886,"end":26528.531,"text":"我們會天然災害救助方法,我們是在滾動檢討的。所以剛才說的,內地的保安不需要放寬,他就應該沒什麼問題,我們已經找到一些原因了。我再請王美娃部長。請經濟部備詢。部長"},{"start":26540.919,"end":26565.823,"text":"恆春半島要我為座民調。 恆春半島的人報案是七十六、七十七,他們是同意河山長演議的。 沒那麼嚴重,我在屏東我住這麼久了。 這個河山長每一次評比在全世界都是前五名的,我沒有記錯的話。 三十年來也沒有什麼重大的毛病。"},{"start":26566.653,"end":26593.809,"text":"那這些百姓他們希望的是他們的醫療、他們的回饋等等,能夠更好的保障。那這個河山長一年,我們給你賺了三、四百億,你要給他關掉嗎?你不笑嗎?美國現在,連邦給大家所有的內陸的那些活力石化電廠,他們希望直接就改成河電廠。"},{"start":26596.343,"end":26623.684,"text":"昨天那個報導,我後來再去看原文,寫得不精準,他講的是說那個已經沒有再用的既有的煤電廠,未來可以來思考。 配電設備不用蓋,就直接輸送出去。院長這個是很重要,現在COPP也認為他是OK的,所以不要,那你代親得嘛,代親得可以當作備用啊。"},{"start":26624.404,"end":26626.486,"text":"謝謝蘇委員侵權的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來登記第4號,劉委員建國以"},{"start":26645.574,"end":26669.746,"text":"質詢以書面提出。請行政院書面答覆並列入記錄刊登公報。在接下來我們請登記第5號張委員嘉峻質詢。院長我想請陳院長麻煩再請陳院長備詢。謝謝院長。"},{"start":26676.4,"end":26696.081,"text":"首先我想感謝陳院長在2月27號那一天丁薛忠委員質詢的時候,承諾說願意開始來調漲公糧收購的價格。請問院長記得嗎?對,公糧收購的這一個部分,農業部有他的一貫的政策。"},{"start":26696.926,"end":26712.279,"text":"那我們這個農業部現在是在研議過程當中那已經過了兩週了不曉得到目前為止有一個很重要的部分就是我們希望能夠提高農民的收益的這個角度沒錯沒錯因為"},{"start":26712.899,"end":26731.631,"text":"那一天之後呢其實農民都為之沸騰覺得說院長您是一個真正苦民所苦願意為農民思考的院長所以我在這裡也拜託農業部我們部長是不是能夠盡速的把這個方案提出來趕快來提高公糧收購的價格"},{"start":26732.592,"end":26757.368,"text":"我想跟委員說明在經濟委員會的時候就是經濟委員會有個決議就是我們會在一個月之內就提高農民收益的部分做一個完整的規劃那我在這邊要跟委員說明就是提高農民的收益有非常非常多的方法我們會做一個完整的規劃到時候在一個月以後會跟我們的經濟委員會還有所有的委員報告是這一點當然我非常清楚因為那一天我質詢"},{"start":26758.689,"end":26781.819,"text":"部長啊 這個我問院長可能院長比較不能夠理解但是呢我那一天問了部長說央苗一盤多少錢我還問了他說插秧費多少錢整地費多少錢我問他13年前的他不知道我覺得是情有可原但是呢我問他現在的他也不知道"},{"start":26782.833,"end":26787.294,"text":"我不曉得說經過了上週之後,現在部長記得我上個禮拜問的,你知道嗎?"},{"start":26787.294,"end":26804.478,"text":"我知道,但是我要跟委員說明齁,就是我對於整體的,因為剛才那次委員說我不了解成本,但是針對各項的部分我不夠了解,但是對於整個的一個每公頃的生產成本,好像農藥的部分、肥料的部分、鴨苗的部分,我是知道的。 已經都飆漲了,都飆漲了,你看喔。"},{"start":26806.599,"end":26829.461,"text":"這個基本工資從2011年到2024年已經調漲了53%但是呢我們到座成本喔大大成長了2、30%到現在我們的工糧收購已經13年前13年前就是本席在這裡提出說一定要照顧農民那這一點呢我其實看了"},{"start":26830.362,"end":26851.444,"text":"也非常難過,我希望部長能夠把農民記在身上。 我想我們會做整體的規劃,不過我這邊先說明一下,雖然說他整體的生產成本有提高大概6到10%,這個我們有算出來,但是因為... 超過,超過。 沒有,這個我們是不同的比級的一個平均。 我沒有想要在這裡跟你辯論。 我知道,但是我要跟委員報告的就是"},{"start":26852.225,"end":26862.929,"text":"因為從10年前到現在他的產量也有提高。對,他的產量也有提高。我讓你看一段影片好不好,院長也請您看一下這段影片。因為台北舊城"},{"start":26877.472,"end":26887.955,"text":"您知道這段影片訴求是給農民一點公平。您知道這個影片是誰拍的嗎?我不太清楚。"},{"start":26889.159,"end":26915.524,"text":"這一段影片是民進黨黨中央在2011年拍的影片他影片裡面說的這段影片真的非常符合現在的現況十幾年來都不調漲公糧收購的價格我想要請問院長你看了這段影片您的感受為何?"},{"start":26916.229,"end":26916.249,"text":"委員長"},{"start":26934.281,"end":26937.243,"text":"我只希望說聽院長這句話,我覺得您願意聽農民的心聲,就是我們想要在這裡為農民表達的。"},{"start":26959.438,"end":26979.667,"text":"因為呢,院長現在是行政機關的最高首長了。你知道我們真的需要你理解農民的辛苦。尤其呢,我也想再請問院長,你知道公糧收購價格這個制度已經實施了多少年嗎?他民國63年開始實施。他已經實施了50年。是。"},{"start":26980.856,"end":26996.407,"text":"自從在上任之後第一次在議事廳發表說希望提高公糧收購價格之後呢非常多的網軍側翼一直在攻擊說提高收購公糧收購價格"},{"start":26997.768,"end":27025.643,"text":"是在圖利中間廠商。我就想問院長跟部長,難道這50年來我們的政府都在圖利中間廠商嗎?不過我想跟委員報告齁,當時的公糧的一個收購有當時的一個環境背景。那針對這麼多年來,我剛才說的,雖然說他的成本...你就問說有沒有嗎?有沒有圖利中間廠商?沒有,這是兩碼子的事。我就想要問你啊,你身為農委會的,你應該要知道,你部長你知不知道有沒有嗎?"},{"start":27026.383,"end":27048.86,"text":"沒有,我想有沒有圖利中天商人,我們的公糧的收購價格的提高絕對不是為了商人。 是,沒錯,就是要照顧農民,所以我在這裡就是想要求部長,假設真的有圖利中天廠商,這也是你農業部的職責,要去把他揪出來,要讓這些真正的"},{"start":27050.123,"end":27073.776,"text":"這些補助可以去拿到農民的手上,是農民真正可以拿到,這才是你的職責。您不能夠因為這種虛幻的理由來阻擋公糧收購價格的提高啊。因為你們有看到說那個媒體報,不過基本上公糧收購提高從過去的經驗它的面積就會提高,面積提高以後產地的價格就會降低。"},{"start":27075.316,"end":27089.326,"text":"我覺得這個是當初陳吉仲說他要增加收購的數量那才是錯好不好那才有可能說會增加面積所以呢就像剛剛蘇清絕委員講的他給你留了多少爛攤子你知道嗎"},{"start":27090.006,"end":27117.183,"text":"我最後呢,針對這個議題呢,現在是萬物齊仗,農民希望表達條藏公糧收購價格,這樣一點小小的心聲,難道不合理嗎?所以我在這裡特別的拜託院長,能夠再一次的正面承諾說,是不是能夠在交接以前做決定,讓我們上百萬的農民都能記得說是陳建仁院長照顧的農民。"},{"start":27118.404,"end":27120.165,"text":"謝謝院長。謝謝。剛剛我也想要再提醒一下部長"},{"start":27143.456,"end":27169.879,"text":"就是很多農民問我不管是老農不管是年輕的農民他們都問我說巴拉瓜到底要禁止到幾時這麼便宜又好用的農藥為什麼要禁止它呢我想跟委員說明巴拉瓜本身被禁因為它是一個劇毒農藥而且當時在農村的地區我完全理解你要說的理由但是我現在就是在跟你"},{"start":27171.038,"end":27181.014,"text":"我們有替代的藥劑轉達轉達農民的心聲包括老農年金是不是能夠調漲現在我們提案說要調到一萬二你們同意嗎"},{"start":27181.857,"end":27209.079,"text":"我想整個老農年金的一個改變一定要配合其他的八大社福的一個基金的第一點第二點部分就是我們也針對了裡面部分的一些有關於門檻的部分我們也做了相當的建議部長我想時間有限我只是在這裡提醒你說這些都要列入考量為什麼這個工糧收購價格不漲老農年金不漲電價要漲所以我可不可以接下來問一下王美花部長謝謝"},{"start":27211.869,"end":27238.218,"text":"請經濟部長備詢院長我看起來經濟部是已經決定這個政策非漲不可就是電價非漲不可我想要請問院長說您認為現在是調漲的好時機嗎確實現在這個時機我們是需要檢討所以才會讓電價審議委員會來認真的就電價的部分來討論那最主要的原因我剛才已經講過"},{"start":27239.54,"end":27246.845,"text":"其實我也很擔心說院長沒有接收到最新的訊息,其實在二、五戰爭的時候能源價格的確是大大的提漲了,但是到目前為止已經落到"},{"start":27261.494,"end":27261.794,"text":"委員那個我們"},{"start":27290.458,"end":27291.118,"text":"這是現在的CPI"},{"start":27317.711,"end":27318.672,"text":"我跟委員報告我們在做去"},{"start":27331.866,"end":27350.395,"text":"此前兩年的電價調整的時候我們都有很做細緻的調整最主要的目的為什麼我們沒有像外國一樣一條就是60%啊80%就是因為不要讓物價大量調整所以到地方調漲所以我們的做法是很精細的相對於其他世界上其他的國家我們是"},{"start":27351.175,"end":27352.437,"text":"我理解但是呢我還想問院長就是說"},{"start":27369.718,"end":27383.942,"text":"針對臺電虧損就好像說你說能源波動臺電虧損去年跟前年我們都分別已經編列預算增資1500億1000億還有特別預算補貼500億目前已經累積虧損3820億那我現在又從報紙上看到說王部長決定今年可能會再從這個超增稅收裡面再補貼1500億這個屬實嗎"},{"start":27397.13,"end":27415.674,"text":"他們有提出來﹚我們有申請但是院裡面現在還在試算﹚還在試算﹚可以補貼的部分。 不理解的地方。 這樣比較有力。 我沒有了解的地方就是說所有百姓也不理解說我們既然已經要撥一千五百億補貼台電了為什麼我們還要漲電價?"},{"start":27415.674,"end":27425.456,"text":"那個理由很簡單就是你看看他這個以這個燃料費的情況來看就虧損了三千八百億的今年啦跟一千八百億的五千多億"},{"start":27426.716,"end":27429.637,"text":"所以簡單講就是過往政府給台電的資金跟補貼的經費跟台電兩年的虧損來比,這虧損還是遠大於撥補的部分。"},{"start":27448.586,"end":27466.51,"text":"我簡單講一下就是說為什麼會有這個虧損是不是能源政策有錯這個是值得檢討但我今天的訴求很簡單就是希望民生用電330度以下的這個民生用電可以動長我也想要請問院長說不曉得這一次漲電價的這個"},{"start":27468.871,"end":27468.891,"text":"謝謝你幫"},{"start":27485.418,"end":27507.483,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":27507.743,"end":27509.306,"text":"這相關的信息都會在審議委員會裏面補貼?"},{"start":27523.365,"end":27550.706,"text":"院長介紹一下我們雲林縣的一個優勢因為大家現在都在討論說臺積電到底要去哪裡啊臺積電到底他的先進製程要落在哪一個城市那我也藉這個機會跟院長還有部長說一下我們雲林縣的優點就是我們有超過1200公頃的公有土地臺塘土地這是完全是希望說院長跟部長可以支持"},{"start":27551.266,"end":27578.481,"text":"另外就是說我們北有竹科南有南科可以形成產業鏈甚至因為1200公頃的土地它未來台積電如果落腳在雲林的話它未來20年30年的發展它有足夠的一個腹地甚至呢我們有兩所國立科技大學雲科大虎科大可以為台積電甚至其他的高科技產業來培育專業的人才之外呢我們有充沛的水資源"},{"start":27579.241,"end":27581.643,"text":"謝謝張委員加進的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第6號陳委員超明質詢。"},{"start":27616.282,"end":27623.568,"text":"我們主席韓院長好。首先有請我們行政院陳院長,農業部的陳部長。麻煩請農業部部長備選。陳委員午安,恭喜你連任。謝謝謝謝。我也感謝陳院長。"},{"start":27635.868,"end":27637.049,"text":"剛剛張家俊委員有談到公糧收購價格問題應該要上檔"},{"start":27661.827,"end":27687.494,"text":"我也報告院長我現在下鄉的時候大家都在討論電價上漲電價上漲是會通膨還是通收你漲的大家沒有錢不敢弄花各種狀況會出來但是我碰到所有的農民那些朋友都跟我講叫我務必要反映公糧收購的價格要上漲"},{"start":27688.581,"end":27702.464,"text":"那在上一屆我會提了好幾次好像你們都無動於衷但是啦早晚你要面臨這樣的問題所以工糧的收購計畫價格計畫收購23塊舞蹈收購20塊宜良收購18塊6這是在100人民國100人群調整的"},{"start":27715.356,"end":27734.523,"text":"那一百人以後改為二十六、二十三、二十一點六塊。那這一來的人誰調了上場?是吳敦義院長。因為陳水扁當總統的時候把這個什麼都動起來不敢上場。為了選舉耀眼什麼動就討好了。"},{"start":27735.943,"end":27750.436,"text":"現在我們蔡英文總統做了八年,這個也不敢漲,連電價都不敢漲,現在整個要一起漲,這個是嚴重的問題。但是剛剛張建均有講過了,我們的回量,"},{"start":27751.701,"end":27778.443,"text":"我們的農藥我們的藥苗都在漲價那其實不但你在回答說你算得很精那我到鄉下跟農民在一起的時候天天都跟我們抱怨工糧收購的價格收穫起來一家都貪不盡能把碼所以現在電價上漲什麼物價上漲你工糧沒有上漲的時候農民會極大的感嘆"},{"start":27780.034,"end":27783.605,"text":"所謂今天跟陳院長,我看你會繼續繼續留著嗎?你現在要做什麼?"},{"start":27788.015,"end":27814.409,"text":"我們未來的賴清德當總統的時候不要這個問題丟給他。你們這一代把他收拾好一下。所以在你追政的院長之內我希望工人能調整。給農民安心的一個交代。現在他們光看電價每天的煩惱都沒有收入。晚上都睡不好覺。雖然有睡覺但是都睡不好覺。"},{"start":27815.632,"end":27830.037,"text":"你覺得有辦法答應,確確實實,成本真的在上漲,不管人工不管什麼,阿保證我問你幾十天了,你現在怎麼明明...我給委員報告齁,你剛才說的這齁,100年上漲了3塊以外還有2塊的一個乾燥費齁,結果我們去調查了從100年到112年,整個的農民收益並沒有實質的增加,這是第一個。"},{"start":27845.563,"end":27856.449,"text":"是因為工糧只佔整個稻穀的收購的三成其他的是民糧在收購的當你工糧收購提高的時候面積擴大民糧的收購價格往下降"},{"start":27858.63,"end":27878.369,"text":"所以我們現在正在規劃齁就是從整體的農民的收益的確保去做一個整體的規劃你都這樣搞公糧收購只有三成民間的價格比較好那三成的不是齁三成是奉公所法的勒大部分都是交公糧的勒我們現在在調查的就是說齁"},{"start":27880.831,"end":27893.822,"text":"國企的成本有差不多6%至10%的上漲,可是產量也提高了。本來就沒什麼賺錢,你現在又不去,你做民間收購的就一天賺,賺了那一點點啦,這樣沒合理的啦,沒有合理的錢就有啦。我跟委員報告說,農業沒軍心齁,農民我們都內行的啦。"},{"start":27901.908,"end":27927.416,"text":"我們要購買的不是稻農,我們的所有農民我們都要確保他的收入,包括稻農、包括種玉米的、種高粱的、種大豆的。 所以我們現在做整體的一個評估啦,就是確保農民收益。委員長、政府委員剛剛講了,這個問題確實要去研究,你不要說只有公用、公糧收購的話占了30%,那30%的人特別照顧,所以希望你調高一點。"},{"start":27928.436,"end":27929.239,"text":"委員這樣啦,因為剛才就我們保證文豪答應這個張委員嘛齁"},{"start":27934.872,"end":27964.872,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":27965.593,"end":27981.586,"text":"轉做農作物,你現在看這個表,11年都沒去,你應該要調整工糧,你要給他減少面積,你那個休耕轉做雜糧的時候你把他拿到館裡嘛,大家就不會去搶嘛。"},{"start":27982.327,"end":27987.07,"text":"你要兩個數字去平衡阿,這是要靠採訪,不是你這樣去做。"},{"start":28013.007,"end":28014.788,"text":"看這個表,農村發展期水土保持113年到116年"},{"start":28040.461,"end":28053.227,"text":"一共有432億,那個前瞻計畫,農村再生的計畫,農田水利市有農田水利跨域整合的計畫,114年度到117年度212億,"},{"start":28058.721,"end":28077.389,"text":"我相信這是有內行的,農村再生我會摸了很久,你地方創生摸了很久,但是你國發會只有做計畫又沒有錢,你說要跟他們匡列,我這裡安若驚特別請你來,農村再生很重要,"},{"start":28078.328,"end":28095.438,"text":"地方創生也很重要,兩個要結合在一起,餅才會做到,你了解我講的意思嗎?我把一看就你們做,你們地方創生好像去幫演會,幫幫的,喔新娘的播種,一兩年就不見了。我講地方創生,我實際看到了啦,我都在執行你這計畫,所以我希望你國發會的地方,"},{"start":28106.998,"end":28130.446,"text":"創生跟你農業部的農村再生能把它結合起來,因為好舉的舉動在推展。我跟委員報告,其實農村再生其實我們很緊密的跟國安會所主導的地方是受做結合的,而且幾乎是每一季,國安會主委這邊...你講結合,我去跟你們拜託大家有時候互相推來推去,你說的好不好,我還要找你們兩個這樣好不好?"},{"start":28131.946,"end":28132.987,"text":"你國會會我特別請你起來"},{"start":28145.303,"end":28159.088,"text":"我就是要講地方創生跟農村再生,因為我摸了很久,我一稱二尺好不好?有做就要有幫忙起來,這樣結尾做完會久久長久有效益,這樣好不好?因為院長已經看過我們幾個地方創生案"},{"start":28165.63,"end":28178.284,"text":"你們說現在新的目標把每年浪費的60%流自大海的水要流自,我覺得各位不簡單。我還不曉得你們只有流自。您老家水要給農民來用。"},{"start":28180.486,"end":28195.503,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":28195.543,"end":28197.783,"text":"我如果要求你你真的要做我以前都有拜託你們講好好只是做了一兩個給我看一下"},{"start":28225.969,"end":28241.4,"text":"那我們通宵裡面本來禮儀壇水庫要引水進來的,它的丘陵地很多,它的山谷凹凹齊齊服務,那是最好帶水的地方。委員如果有什麼建議我們都可以齊心來接受,來一起討論。時間要沒了,謝謝你。再來我就請我們經濟部長黃國華會主委"},{"start":28257.589,"end":28276.468,"text":"這個問題比較大,把你們這幾個頭叫來,本來我只要請你們的副院長,今天沒有看到哪,因為大溪谷有院長在就能來。我為什麼講苗栗縣值得更好投資,陶瓷指苗大溪谷去挖,因為我看到我問過"},{"start":28278.226,"end":28298.67,"text":"我們的國安會主委的時候,你那時候很早到苗栗,去了一次是在我的地方,榮鳳漁港去檢查,你說你有去。不是啊,我是跟你一起去啊,我去過好多次。院長只有選舉的時候去了兩三次,還好沒有騙你宅死。這個大序股計畫我很早就提了。"},{"start":28299.642,"end":28325.608,"text":"我在110年10月6日部長的時候我就特別提了這個然後到了110年也有辦理會刊我這個地方就是我們當時的加工機長那個機長我請他們去陪我調查花了一天整整一天的時間做出來"},{"start":28326.738,"end":28334.011,"text":"但是今天你這個陶瓷子廟大事故計畫,我一定有理想看不出來,你不相信嗎?"},{"start":28335.578,"end":28361.799,"text":"你要曉得苗栗的位置是怎樣我們的投汶竹壇是靠近新竹科技的前期連結在一起我們南邊的縣裡是靠近台中的科學營區所以發展西部科技走廊苗栗縣裡要把它貫穿起來我現在看到你再來下一張你看桃園386公頃"},{"start":28365.768,"end":28384.626,"text":"新竹新竹市322公頃,苗栗3個加起來290公頃,真正的要發展是我們在那一邊啦,討厭200多萬的人口,新竹縣新竹縣也滿了,新竹市也沒有地方了。"},{"start":28385.831,"end":28403.038,"text":"所以我特別的要求我們現在提出900公頃出來都在竹蘭科學園區的附近在新竹科學園區的附近我們這幾個地區從苗栗的竹蘭到新竹科學園區比新竹市道"},{"start":28404.625,"end":28411.53,"text":"拜託啦好好照顧我,你先不來我實在不敢回去,因為我堅持這條走廊我一定要完成。"},{"start":28430.03,"end":28438.097,"text":"這是我的信念,我一直在推,我對苗栗的發展非常重視,我會了解未來的發展苗栗縣都是最少的"},{"start":28447.711,"end":28475.138,"text":"沒有啦,那個科學園區150工刑是那一總統當時宣布這個大矽谷計畫是在苗栗宣布的勒,我不好意思他超虛偶的啦,人家做總統的啦委員非常重視苗栗的發展,那就像委員講的對,我們也跟著委員去看幾個地方啦吼,那現在苗栗的問題可能一定要地方政府跟中央來合作,因為他公有的地比較少"},{"start":28476.098,"end":28479.241,"text":"所以他的第一個問題就是私有地這個怎麼解決?"},{"start":28479.241,"end":28492.173,"text":"我們私有地我們大概都有去了解過了,而且我們做過很明顯,你可以看到苗栗縣中東景縣長的魄力,他的思維,我自信他能完成,你了解我?"},{"start":28494.378,"end":28498,"text":"我會專程派你來苗栗考察一下,主委長我真的很感謝你,你後到那一次我看你每次看到我在場"},{"start":28519.91,"end":28536.493,"text":"你都不敢亂講話,都說陳昌明很無力,所謂民進黨不敢亂修理,我這一點特別感謝。但是我苗栗縣的發展,讓苗栗縣變得偉大,我現在把他扣一塊而已,這樣好不好?把我們轉到旗旗傑好不好?雖然是看不清楚,你以為我們在國情新聞的時候都把這個全部發表清楚好不好?可是我自己也沒有發表清楚。"},{"start":28549.199,"end":28568.592,"text":"謝謝陳委員超明的質詢,謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來登記第七位陳委員秀寶,質詢以書面提出。請行政院書面答覆,並列入記錄刊登公報。在接下來我們請登記第八位馬委員文君質詢。"},{"start":28578.948,"end":28582.072,"text":"請陳院長請陳院長備詢院長午安今天又第二次見面"},{"start":28594.197,"end":28620.606,"text":"剛剛排到經濟的部分那在這裡我們還是要請教院長我們早上談到的部分還有下午其實都是跟我們民生非常相關的部分那就這個部分我想先請教針對農民農保的部分因為農保現在很多條件在限縮當然可能是為了很多假農民的問題這個部分"},{"start":28622.046,"end":28622.206,"text":"我舉幾個例子。"},{"start":28640.683,"end":28640.703,"text":"﹚國務委員"},{"start":28659.844,"end":28660.304,"text":"﹚一、三、四、五﹚"},{"start":28679.452,"end":28683.175,"text":"我們現在有很多以前可以保農保的縱數現在不可以是不是縱數基本上它本身是一個所謂的景觀樹木有沒有那個部分所以我們在縱數的部分是有一些條件的"},{"start":28704.502,"end":28722.771,"text":"哪一些是有條件﹖像一般的林農的部分他是可以的但是有一些一般的那個原液景觀公司有沒有﹖他是公司的形態有沒有他去種然後他所僱用的人其實他只是在﹖桂花是算什麼是景觀還是哪一個桂花"},{"start":28724.263,"end":28750.141,"text":"貴花要看他沒有啦他本身如果是因為在做警官的時候有沒有他顧的人現在就是說那個公司以公司形態顧的人不是不是我說本身他就是種樹因為種樹跟你你有公司當然不是啊他一定是本身是農民他參與他是種樹因為你有一些你很難分得出來他到底是什麼比如說肉桂肉桂是警官還是可用的"},{"start":28750.501,"end":28751.021,"text":"我了解我了解對對對"},{"start":28773.047,"end":28798.351,"text":"他已經繳了二、三十年的農保,你突然今天說不行,把他過去的全部把他取消掉,這是不合理的,這政府至少要有誠信原則,如果你在未來覺得說這個有一些是不適宜的,那你訂落日條款,你過去已經同意人家的,人家已經付了那麼久的,他以前都繳農保啊,那過去他沒有機會繳其他的保險,結果你政府說停就停。"},{"start":28799.572,"end":28806.339,"text":"這是非常不合理的,而且是嚴重的傷害到農民的權益。 這個部分部長是不是可以覺得這個部分是好的?"},{"start":28806.339,"end":28819.054,"text":"我想我基本上同意您的說法,就是說我們在做修改的時候,針對之前已經保農保的部分,我們的落日條件,我們會做一些排除的部分,我想我們會更嚴謹的去思考。"},{"start":28819.494,"end":28843.149,"text":"因為農業部一直是跟農民站在一起的,絕對不會輕易的...部長因為現在已經發生,他已經把人家停掉了,所以這個部分我們希望可以趕快跟各地的相關農會可以去討論好不好?因為你以後我們如果說要去做條件的把關,我覺得那都可以可是你讓投保的人自己很清楚的知道,那你過去我已經講了那麼多了"},{"start":28844.11,"end":28846.511,"text":"我們現在還要請教的是我們現在休耕政策是不是有做了一些調整?"},{"start":28868.92,"end":28892.688,"text":"基本上我們的休耕政策,因為其實一個好的一個土地的品質的維護,他絕對不要去連作,連作的話會讓土壤的土質,所以我們有一些休耕,但是也不能連續休耕,因為連續休耕也不好。所以現在我們的休耕本身是一休一種,這是一個是我們自農業部所推動的一個方向。"},{"start":28893.459,"end":28908.559,"text":"部長這個部分因為我們在好像去年還是今年才稍微又做了調整,它以前是好像4年選一次可以休耕的部分嘛,現在好像兩年就一次。"},{"start":28909.48,"end":28931.562,"text":"這個會造成什麼樣的一個影響就是農民其實我們現在我們的農業人口都是年紀非常大的所以其實你一旦要休耕他如果他他他也不能擺著通通不動他必須要種植其他的才可以拿休耕補助所以你要領這個補助的時候他必須要除一次草就是要還要翻土"},{"start":28932.442,"end":28953.698,"text":"這些都要花錢請人家做因為不可能是農民自己做現在不可能用人工所以這是一次的費用可是當他還要再一次種植的時候他要再花一次等於他比過去休耕的政策他多花一次的這樣的一個費用這個部分我想部長請回去請相關的一些"},{"start":28954.719,"end":28958.342,"text":"對,我想跟委員說明齁,這可能有點誤解齁,剛才說的兩年一個休耕,那是針對我們的稻作四選三,因為兩年有四期作。"},{"start":28974.713,"end":28978.094,"text":"部長,我想可能不是宣導,他們很清楚,因為成本都是他們在付,就像剛剛講的,這是針對水稻的部分,那水稻過去,其實我們政策有調整,所以我相信部長知道這個意思。"},{"start":29002.581,"end":29024.01,"text":"所以對他們來說他們就是多了一次的成本可是剛剛聽到前面兩位的委員他們在提到的就是我們提高供糧收購的價格我們好像又沒有辦法做到因為剛剛說休耕這個他為什麼可以有休耕補助是因為如果符合我們的休耕的方式調整成這樣的方式我們才願意跟他收購"},{"start":29024.65,"end":29051.118,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":29051.198,"end":29051.218,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":29074.735,"end":29104.735,"text":"﹗"},{"start":29105.035,"end":29123.921,"text":"這個部分我們請農業部再做一些研議跟考量那希望可以不要在對農民增加負擔的情況之下應該要把我們的政策落實到照顧到農民是最好的你既然沒有你在現階段還沒有辦法調高他的價格的時候至少不要增加他的負擔謝謝"},{"start":29125.501,"end":29142.14,"text":"那另外我們現在要談到的就是主計總署的資料顯示我們現在外使的費用月增率在2月的時候已經升到0.48%這是高於長期的平均漲幅"},{"start":29143.701,"end":29163.827,"text":"綜合統計處的分析是因為他調漲的原因他分析的理由當然是近三年外食費他有三波的上漲第一個當然就是疫情在110年的時候在111年因為惡霧戰爭黃曉裕這些大宗物資也帶頭也漲了"},{"start":29165.848,"end":29188.623,"text":"那接下來就是112年因為缺蛋蛋價調高以後因為對於我們的所有的飲食習慣他蛋的用量非常高所以也帶動所有的外食的這些漲幅那下個月又要漲電價勢必也會帶動很多很多的漲幅所以在這裡我們剛剛在討論的時候我們辦公室的同仁"},{"start":29192.566,"end":29211.674,"text":"他們也收到小孩子帶回去的一個問卷調查學校的他們原來的餐費一餐可能50塊那現在有三個方案60塊或者兩個55塊的那要看家長同不同意是勢必要漲了那漲幅其實也是10%20%只是大家怎麼選擇"},{"start":29214.295,"end":29241.097,"text":"那你如果挑55塊的他大概就是一個月或是牛奶大概就沒得喝或者是麵包沒得吃那你如果60塊的就是維持原來的可是他就是漲了10塊那在這些所有的不管在生活在外食在各方方面面其實都會漲價的情況之下我們所有的政策的推動難道一定是在這個節點嗎因為"},{"start":29244.479,"end":29258.747,"text":"像我們看到很多現在的政府在推動新政策的時候通常也應該要把通膨的因素也要把它考量進去現在通膨的情況也非常的嚴重"},{"start":29259.207,"end":29285.861,"text":"那現在過去電價也調高了兩次如果是連2018年已經調了三次他從3%在後面的這兩年又調了19.4%其實再加上如果下個月又要調漲再加上通膨再加上很多的這些因素他其實造成的很多的漲價是不是人民可以負擔得起那你接下來其實你不只漲這些你不只漲這個"},{"start":29287.041,"end":29299.873,"text":"還有包括我們的高鐵還有包括我們的客運還有包括我們的掛號費現在這個像掛號費或餐食這個都是省不掉的你生病就一定要看醫生"},{"start":29300.913,"end":29317.108,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":29317.188,"end":29333.399,"text":"在這一部分的感受或者生活的調適上其實他要面臨的這些還包括薪資他長得很少甚至我們的實質的是負成長那就這些方面我們有什麼樣的"},{"start":29334.56,"end":29349.196,"text":"更深刻的考量,讓人民的感受可以不要那麼多,再加上過去這幾個月,因為我們剛剛是有做了一些事,之前有做了事實的調漲,就是很多人被開罰單,早上我也提過,所有的都在花錢。"},{"start":29350.037,"end":29367.204,"text":"那這個到底可以怎麼做讓人民的感受可以不要那麼強烈剝奪感這麼深因為大家都講不是漲到2萬點可是那個是一直獨秀只有台積電跟少數的幾支股票80%的股民其實是賠錢"},{"start":29368.064,"end":29370.666,"text":"談到這個電價的調整確實你剛才那個圖裡面可以看得到我們在最近調的電價"},{"start":29394.452,"end":29412.494,"text":"有調到8.4%調到11%這是剛好在COVID-19的時間也是在俄烏戰爭以後那全世界在這一段燃料大量增加的這一段期間調整的弧度都是在50、60甚至有加倍的在做"},{"start":29412.93,"end":29412.95,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":29433.092,"end":29446.023,"text":"您的建議會考慮到民生的用電會考慮到工業的用電而且工業用電還會考慮到這個是在成長中的產業還是在在比較還沒有完全起"},{"start":29446.57,"end":29446.59,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":29467.296,"end":29467.576,"text":"這一部分我們還是"},{"start":29498.961,"end":29514.597,"text":"謝謝馬文、文君的質詢。也謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告院會本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢。謝謝陳院長以及相關部會首長列席答詢。現在作以下的決定。下次會議繼續進行經濟組織質詢。現在散會。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"149730","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149730","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a29384af17454a0b58cd504b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a63b92ca8a14ff0d395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"16:26:20 - 16:41:48","影片長度":"00:15:28","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":928,"end_time":"2024-03-12T16:41:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T16:26:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（16時26分）謝謝主席，麻煩請陳院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：馬委員午安。"],["馬委員文君：院長午安，今天第二次見面。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["馬委員文君：剛好排到經濟的部分，在這裡我還是要請教院長，我們早上談到的部分還有下午其實都是跟我們民生非常相關的。就這個部分，我想先請教農民農保的問題，因為農保現在很多條件在限縮，當然可能是為了很多假農民的問題，要打擊假農民或者像這樣子的條件，我們是支持的，可是不要因為這樣，讓很多真正的農民或者過去曾經在農業付出的這些農民受到傷害。我舉幾個例子，可能包括現在其實都在發生當中，也請部長可以去重視這一塊。在此也先謝謝部長，因為前兩天我接到地方的陳情，大概就是有機肥料的部分本來是補助2塊，後來在去年2加2補助到4塊，原來可能快要停掉了，但因為考量到我們農民在這一段時間成本不斷增加，包括人力成本造成的負擔，所以又同意至少到這些預算使用完為止。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們今天已經有發文。"],["馬委員文君：對，所以在這裡也非常感謝。可是我們還是要討論我們農保條件的限縮，像現在有很多以前可以保農保的，種樹現在不可以是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：種樹基本上它本身是所謂的景觀樹木那個部分，所以我們在種樹的部分是有一些條件的。"],["馬委員文君：哪一些是有條件的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：像一般林農的部分他是可以的，但是有一些像一般的園藝景觀公司，他是公司的型態去種，然後他所僱用的人其實他只是在……"],["馬委員文君：桂花是算什麼？是景觀還是……"],["陳代理部長駿季：哪一個？"],["馬委員文君：桂花。"],["陳院長建仁：桂花要看它……"],["陳代理部長駿季：他本身若是在做景觀的，他僱的人……現在就是說以公司型態僱的人……"],["馬委員文君：不是，我是說他本身就是在種樹，你有公司當然不是啊！他一定本身是農民他參與……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對……"],["馬委員文君：他是種樹，因為有一些你很難分得出來他到底是什麼，比如說肉桂，肉桂是景觀還是可用的？因為肉桂有藥用還有食用嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我瞭解，對。"],["馬委員文君：所以就這個部分……"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個部分我們會去檢討。"],["馬委員文君：至少你們未來要釐清……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["馬委員文君：可是在過去大家已經投保的，比如說過去歷任政府對於農民種樹的部分，其實他認為是農民，他已經繳了二、三十年的農保，你今天突然說不行，把他過去的全部取消掉，這是不合理的。政府至少要有誠信原則，如果你在未來覺得這有一些是不適宜的，那你訂落日條款，你過去已經同意人家的，人家已經付了那麼久的農保，他以前都繳農保，過去他沒有機會繳其他的保險，結果政府說停就停，這是非常不合理的，而且是嚴重的傷害到農民的權益，部長是不是可以就這個部分去考量？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我基本上同意您的說法，就是我們在做修改的時候，針對之前已經投保農保部分的落日條款，我們會做一些排除，我們會更嚴謹地去思考，因為農業部一直是跟農民站在一起的，絕對不會輕易地……"],["馬委員文君：好，因為現在已經發生，它已經把人家停掉了，所以就這個部分，我們希望可以趕快跟各地的相關農會可以去……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會來處理。"],["馬委員文君：對，可以去討論，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["馬委員文君：因為以後我們如果要去做條件的把關，我覺得那都可以，可是你讓投保的人自己很清楚地知道，過去他已經繳了那麼多了，沒有理由說停就停。他現在如果年紀已經六、七十歲，他要去保別的保險是不可能了，所以他這樣的基本保障，政府應該要去確保他的權益，這個部分部長會同意嘛？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個我們會來做比較詳細的討論。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。就這個落日條款的部分如果可以同意，我們現在還要請教的是，現在休耕政策是不是有做了一些調整？"],["陳代理部長駿季：基本上我們的休耕政策，其實一個好的土地的品質維護，絕對不要去連作，連作的話會讓土壤的土質不好，所以我們有一些休耕，但是也不能連續休耕，因為連續休耕也不好。所以現在我們的休耕本身是一休一種，這是我們農業部所推動的方向。"],["馬委員文君：部長，就這個部分，我們好像在去年、還是今年才稍微又做了調整，以前好像是4年選1次可以休耕，現在好像2年就1次，這個會造成什麼樣的影響？就是其實現在我們的農業人口都是年紀非常大的……"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["馬委員文君：所以一旦要休耕，他也不能擺著統統不動，他必須要種植其他的才可以拿休耕補助，所以要領這個補助的時候，他必須要除一次草，還要翻土，這些都要花錢請人家做，因為不可能是農民自己做，現在不可能用人工，所以這是一次的費用；可是當他還要再次種植的時候，他又要再花一次，等於他比過去休耕的政策要多花一次的費用，請部長回去責成相關的單位再去研究這個部分，因為我有聽到非常多的農民講這樣子……"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["馬委員文君：而且包括在幫他們翻耕的這些人，都覺得賺這個錢很不好意思。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我想跟委員說明，這可能有點誤解，剛才說2年1個休耕，那是針對我們的稻作4選3，因為2年有4期作，4期作可以種3期的水稻，我們可以收公糧，1期可以做休耕，這個跟其他的休耕政策是並行的，所以這個可能有點誤解，不過我想這個部分我們會更精準地跟農民做宣導，然後做必要的調整。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我想可能不是宣導，他們很清楚，因為成本都是他們在付，就像剛剛講的，這是針對水稻的部分，其實水稻過去我們政策有調整，所以我相信部長知道這個意思……"],["陳代理部長駿季：知道。"],["馬委員文君：所以對他們來說，他們就是多了一次的成本，可是剛剛聽到前面兩位委員提到的，就是我們提高公糧收購的價格好像又沒有辦法做到，因為剛剛說到他為什麼可以有休耕補助？是因為如果符合我們的休耕方式、調整成這樣的方式，我們才願意跟他們以公糧來收購。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["馬委員文君：所以他們也是要配合，可是對他們來說，成本就是增加，在統統沒有調整他們的價格的情況之下，又增加他們的成本，尤其像現在為什麼我們會有2加2的肥料補助？為什麼我們會有其他的相關補助？就是因為我們看到近幾年不管是人力、物料、各方面都在調漲的情況之下，會增加農民的成本。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["馬委員文君：然後你又沒有增加他公糧收購的價格，你現在又增加他這樣子的成本，其實對他們就是一個負擔，所以就這個部分請部長下去再研議看看，因為有很多的農民都提到這個部分，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["馬委員文君：主要對農民來說，如果這個金額不是很多，或者他們可以做這樣子，但是等到他們都不種的時候，我們的糧食是有問題的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["馬委員文君：我們現在看起來是以面積看，可是我們臺灣面臨最大的問題是我們的農業人口是老化的，如果這些到時候乾脆統統不要做了，我們會有問題。所以這個部分在兼顧各方面的考量，我想我們農業部其實還是可以做全盤的規劃。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們在確保農民收益的整體規劃裡面，我們會一併把剛才講的這些水旱田輪作的部分，包括休耕的部分，我們會一併來檢討。"],["馬委員文君：好，這個部分我們請農業部再做一些研議跟考量。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["馬委員文君：希望可以不要再對農民增加負擔的情況之下，應該要把我們的政策落實照顧到農民是最好的。既然你在現階段還沒有辦法調高他的價格時，至少不要增加他的負擔。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。另外我們現在要談到的就是主計總處的資料顯示，現在外食的費用月增率在2月的時候已經升到0.48%，這是高於長期的平均漲幅。綜合統計處分析調漲的原因，其分析的理由當然是近三年外食費有三波的上漲，第一個當然就是疫情，在110年的時候，在111年因為俄烏戰爭，黃小玉這些大宗物資也帶頭漲了，接下來就是112年，因為缺蛋，蛋價調高以後，對於我們所有的飲食習慣，蛋的用量非常高，所以也帶動所有外食這些漲幅。下個月又要漲電價，勢必也會帶動很多很多的漲幅。所以剛剛在討論的時候，我們辦公室的同仁他們也收到小孩子帶回去的一個學校問卷調查，原來他們的餐費一餐可能50塊，現在有三個方案，60塊或者兩個55塊的，要看家長同不同意，是勢必要漲了，漲幅其實也是10%、20%，只是大家怎麼選擇，如果你挑55塊的，大概就是一個月牛奶沒得喝或者是麵包沒得吃；如果60塊的，就是維持原來的，可是它就是漲了10塊。","在這些所有的，不管在生活、在外食、在各方方面面其實都會漲價的情況之下，我們所有的政策推動難道一定是在這個節點嗎？因為像我們看到很多現在政府在推動新政策的時候，通常應該要把通膨的因素也要考量進去，現在通膨的情況非常的嚴重，過去電價也調高了兩次，如果連2018年已經調了三次，從3%到後面這兩年又調了19.4%，其實如果下個月又要調漲，再加上通膨、再加上很多的這些因素，其實造成很多的漲價，人民是不是可以負擔得起？接下來，其實你不只漲這些，還有包括我們的高鐵、還有包括我們的客運、還有包括我們的掛號費，現在像掛號費或餐食，這個都是省不掉的，你生病就一定要看醫生，你在外面工作，小孩子等等其實就是要吃，這些同時都漲的情況之下，對人民會造成多大的負擔，這個部分是不是可以做一個通盤的考量？在怎麼樣的情況之下，可以讓人民在這一部分的感受或者生活的調適上，他要面臨的這些，還包括薪資其實漲得很少，甚至實質是負成長，就這些方面，我們有什麼樣更深刻的考量嗎？讓人民的感受可以不要那麼多。","再加上過去這幾個月，因為我們之前有做了適時的調漲，就是很多人被開罰單，早上我也提過，所有的都在花錢，這個到底可以怎麼做？讓人民的感受可以不要那麼強烈、剝奪感這麼這麼深，因為大家都講股市漲到兩萬點，可是那個是一枝獨秀，只有台積電跟少數幾支股票，80%的股民其實是賠錢，甚至好的傳產也是跌的，所以就這個部分，我們不希望只看到那個數據，而沒有去感受到所有人民自己深切的生活上面臨的困難，這個部分是不是請院長可以說明一下？"],["陳院長建仁：好，談到這個電價的調整，確實，剛才那個圖裡面可以看得到我們在最近調的電價就從8.4%調到11%，剛好在COVID-19期間，也是在俄烏戰爭以後，全世界在燃料大量增加的這一段期間，調整的幅度都是在50%、60%，甚至有 double，加倍在做的。我們也就是為了要使物價不會因為電價的調整而有太多的波動，所以我們才壓抑了這兩次的電價調整，沒有調整到所謂的Full scale，所以這一次的電價調整，我們也會按照您的建議，會考慮到民生用電，會考慮到工業用電，而且工業用電還會考慮到這是在成長中的產業，還是還沒有完全恢復的產業，來做很細緻的調整。","電價的調整本來就是審議委員會的責任，我們會把這一些考量的因素，包括你剛才講的這些因素，也讓審議委員會來參考，這個部分經濟部實際上也是很謹慎的，我們比誰都還關心物價會上漲的部分，確實是這樣。"],["馬委員文君：就這個部分，因為時間的關係，我剛剛特別提到的，其實大家不是反對，覺得你的電價都不可以漲，而是因為我們選擇的時間點，而且現在很多東西一起漲，人民受不受得了，才是我們政府所有相關的部門應該要去考量，而且應該要去規劃、重視的，這個部分我們還是希望再有全盤的規劃，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們會做通盤考量。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員文君的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，謝謝陳院長以及相關部會首長列席答詢。現在作以下決定：下次會議繼續進行經濟組之質詢。現在散會，謝謝。","散會（16時42分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":2.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.15284375,"end":4.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.599093750000002,"end":10.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.25284375,"end":32.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.649093750000002,"end":13.665968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.68284375,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.95409375,"end":116.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.56034375,"end":41.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.52096875000001,"end":78.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.55534375,"end":102.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.04221875,"end":124.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.92284375000001,"end":126.42471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.08721875,"end":130.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.62659375,"end":139.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.11471875,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.21159375000002,"end":140.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.13534375,"end":142.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.16909375,"end":142.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.28721875000002,"end":142.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.75971875000002,"end":143.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.24471875,"end":154.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.18846875,"end":156.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.31034375000002,"end":174.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.36096875,"end":156.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.14534375000002,"end":160.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.17034375,"end":161.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.96346875,"end":162.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.74721875,"end":169.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.25721875000002,"end":175.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.58596875,"end":192.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.37471875,"end":178.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.91846875000002,"end":180.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.70971875,"end":193.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.48596875,"end":227.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.22346875000002,"end":243.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.96471875,"end":235.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.05221875,"end":242.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.94659375,"end":287.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.34721875000002,"end":244.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.74721875,"end":251.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.73846875,"end":251.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.10534375,"end":253.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.12471875,"end":264.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.90346875,"end":278.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.29971875,"end":278.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.69471875,"end":288.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.99846875000003,"end":313.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.25159375000004,"end":289.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.87221875,"end":327.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.41909375,"end":324.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.57096875,"end":324.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.42284375,"end":352.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.56471875,"end":337.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.80846875000003,"end":344.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.39784375000005,"end":352.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.68471875,"end":374.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.02721875000003,"end":386.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.22096875,"end":379.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.12346875000003,"end":380.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.04659375,"end":409.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.84471875,"end":493.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.38284375,"end":421.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.39221875000004,"end":442.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.98659375000005,"end":446.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.26534375000006,"end":471.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.95909375,"end":487.33034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.19409375000004,"end":517.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.83909375,"end":499.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.29034375000003,"end":501.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.82971875000004,"end":505.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.8828437500001,"end":520.9115937500001},{"sp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我了解。對,所以就這個部分至少如果你們未來要釐清,可是在過去大家已經投保的,比如說過去所有政府我們歷任,我們在政府對於農保就是農民種樹的部分,其實它是認為是農民。"},{"start":193.504,"end":218.789,"text":"他已經繳了二、三十年的農保,你突然今天說不行,把他過去的全部把它取消掉,這是不合理的,這政府至少要有誠信原則,如果你在未來覺得說這個有一些是不適宜的,那你訂落日條款,你過去已經同意人家的,人家已經付了那麼久的,他以前都繳農保啊,那過去他沒有機會繳其他的保險,結果你政府說停就停。"},{"start":219.569,"end":226.793,"text":"這是非常不合理的而且是嚴重的傷害到農民的權益。 這個部分部長是不是可以決定這個部分是好的?"},{"start":226.793,"end":234.238,"text":"我想我基本上同意您的說法就是說我們在做修改的時候針對之前已經保農保的部分"},{"start":234.938,"end":250.536,"text":"我們會做一些排除的部分,我想我們會更嚴謹的去思考,因為農業部一直是跟農民站在一起的,絕對不會輕易的...部長,因為現在已經發生,他已經把人家停掉了,所以這個部分我們希望可以趕快跟各地的相關團會可以去討論好不好?"},{"start":253.499,"end":253.799,"text":"我們會來做一個比較詳細的討論。"},{"start":278.76,"end":287.62,"text":" 那就這個部分,落字條款的部分如果可以同意,我們現在還要請教的是我們現在休耕政策是不是有做了一些調整?"},{"start":289.384,"end":313.166,"text":"基本上我們的休耕政策因為其實一個好的一個土地的品質的維護他絕對不要去連作連作的話會讓土壤的土質所以我們有一些休耕但是也不能連續休耕因為連續休耕也不好所以現在我們的休耕本身是一休一種這是一個是我們自農業部所推動的一個方向"},{"start":313.919,"end":329.02,"text":"部長這個部分因為我們在好像去年還是今年才稍微又做了調整他以前是好像4年選一次可以休耕的部分現在好像兩年就一次"},{"start":329.94,"end":352.017,"text":"這個會造成什麼樣的一個影響就是農民其實我們現在我們的農業人口都是年紀非常大的所以其實你一旦要休耕他如果他他他也不能擺著通通不動他必須要種植其他的才可以拿休耕補助所以你要領這個補助的時候他必須要除一次草就是要還要翻土"},{"start":352.897,"end":374.173,"text":"這些都要花錢請人家做因為不可能是農民自己做雖然不可能用人工所以這是一次的費用可是當他還要再一次種植的時候他要再花一次等於他比過去休耕的政策他多花一次的這樣的一個費用這個部分我想部長請回去請相關的一些"},{"start":375.174,"end":378.818,"text":"對,我想跟委員說明齁,這可能有點誤解齁,剛才說的兩年一個休耕那是針對我們的稻作四選三,因為兩年有四期作。"},{"start":395.174,"end":398.576,"text":"部長,我想可能不是宣導,他們很清楚,因為成本都是他們在付,就像剛剛講的,這是針對水稻的部分,那水稻過去,其實我們政策有調整,所以我相信部長知道這個意思嘛。"},{"start":423.05,"end":444.47,"text":"所以對他們來說他們就是多了一次的成本可是剛剛聽到前面兩位的委員他們在提到的就是我們提高供糧收購的價格我們好像又沒有辦法做到因為剛剛說休耕這個他為什麼可以有休耕補助是因為如果符合我們的休耕的方式調整成這樣的方式我們才願意跟他收購"},{"start":445.171,"end":445.311,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":471.578,"end":471.678,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":495.196,"end":495.236,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":525.516,"end":544.397,"text":"這個部分我們請農業部再做一些研議跟考量那希望可以不要在對農民增加負擔的情況之下應該要把我們的政策落實到照顧到農民是最好的你既然沒有你在現階段還沒有辦法調高他的價格的時候至少不要增加他的負擔謝謝"},{"start":545.959,"end":562.601,"text":"那另外我們現在要談到的就是主計總署的資料顯示我們現在外使的費用月增率在2月的時候已經升到0.48%這是高於長期的平均漲幅"},{"start":563.522,"end":584.288,"text":"那綜合統計處的分析是因為他調漲的原因他分析的理由當然是近三年外食外食費他有三波的上漲第一個當然就是疫情在110年的時候在111年因為惡霧戰爭黃小玉這些大宗物資也帶頭也漲了"},{"start":586.309,"end":608.842,"text":"那接下來就是112年因為缺蛋蛋價調高以後因為對於我們的所有的飲食習慣他蛋的用量非常高所以也帶動所有的外食的這些漲幅那下個月又要漲電價勢必也會帶動很多很多的漲幅所以在這裡我們剛剛在討論的時候我們辦公室的同仁"},{"start":613.024,"end":632.129,"text":"他們也收到小孩子帶回去的一個問卷調查學校的他們原來的餐費一餐可能50塊那現在有三個方案60塊或者兩個55塊的那要看家長同不同意是勢必要漲了那漲幅其實也是10%20%只是大家怎麼選擇"},{"start":634.77,"end":634.91,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":664.941,"end":678.981,"text":"像我們看到很多現在的政府在推動新政策的時候通常也應該要把通膨的因素也要把它考量進去現在通膨的情況也非常的嚴重"},{"start":680.102,"end":706.318,"text":"現在過去電價也調高了兩次如果是連2018年已經調了三次他從3%在後面的這兩年又調了19.4%其實再加上如果下個月又要調漲再加上通膨再加上很多的這些因素他其實造成的很多的漲價是不是人民可以負擔得起那你接下來其實你不只漲這些你不只漲這個"},{"start":707.199,"end":707.419,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":722.075,"end":722.255,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":737.648,"end":753.819,"text":"在這一部分的感受或者生活的調適上其實他要面臨的這些還包括薪資他長得很少甚至我們的實質的是負成長那就這些方面我們有什麼樣的"},{"start":755.02,"end":769.657,"text":"更深刻的考量嗎?讓人民的感受可以不要那麼多,再加上過去這幾個月,因為我們剛剛是有做了一些事,之前有做了事實的調漲,就是很多人被開罰單,早上我也提過,所有的都在花錢。"},{"start":770.498,"end":786.144,"text":"那這個到底可以怎麼做讓人民的感受可以不要那麼強烈剝奪感這麼深因為大家都講不是漲到2萬點可是那個是一直獨秀只有台積電跟少數的幾支股票80%的股民其實是賠錢"},{"start":788.525,"end":791.147,"text":"談到這個電價的調整,確實啦,你剛才那個圖裡面可以看得到我們在最近調的電價呢,"},{"start":814.653,"end":814.933,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":833.399,"end":833.499,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":853.55,"end":872.4,"text":"您的建議會考慮到民生的用電會考慮到工業的用電而且工業用電還會考慮到這個是在成長中的產業還是在比較還沒有完全恢復的產業來做很細緻的調整那電價的調整本來就是審議委員會"},{"start":873.601,"end":873.841,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":887.617,"end":887.917,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":919.599,"end":926.878,"text":"謝謝馬文君的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告院會本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢。"}]}},{"id":"149729","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149729","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a29385544487b956be82c04b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a62a5e3ee0d4b51e7c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"16:10:15 - 16:25:59","影片長度":"00:15:44","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":944,"end_time":"2024-03-12T16:25:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T16:10:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":495,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（16時10分）主席韓院長好，首先有請行政院陳院長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢。"],["陳委員超明：還有農業部陳部長。"],["主席：麻煩請農業部部長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：陳委員午安，恭喜你連任。"],["陳委員超明：謝謝、謝謝，我也感謝陳院長在輔選民進黨期間講話很客氣，不會把我拋棄掉，因為我是實際做事情的人。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，你對地方很有貢獻。"],["陳委員超明：所以這一點你很公道，我很欣賞，也趁這個機會來謝謝你。","剛剛張嘉郡委員有談到公糧收購價格應該要上漲，我也報告院長，我現在下鄉的時候，大家都在討論電價上漲，電價上漲是會通膨還是通縮？你漲了，大家沒有錢，不敢亂花，各種狀況都會出來，但是我碰到的所有農民朋友都跟我講，叫我務必要反映公糧收購價格要上漲。上一屆我也提了好幾次，好像你們都無動於衷，但是早晚要面臨這樣的問題。","民國100年以前公糧的計畫收購價格是23塊、輔導收購20塊、餘糧收購18.6塊，100年以後分別調整為26、23、21.6塊，100年是誰調漲的？是吳敦義院長。因為陳水扁當總統的時候把什麼都凍起來、不敢上漲，為了選舉要贏，怎麼凍都討好。現在我們蔡英文總統做了8年，這個也不敢漲，連電價都不敢漲，現在整個要一起漲，這是個嚴重的問題。但是剛剛張嘉郡講過了，我們的肥料、我們的農藥、我們的秧苗都在漲價，其實部長在回答說你算得很清楚，可是我到鄉下和農民在一起的時候，他們天天都跟我抱怨，公糧收購價格收穫起來一甲地賺不到一、兩萬。所以現在電價上漲、什麼物價上漲，公糧收購價格沒有上漲的話，農民會有極大的反彈。","我不知道陳院長會不會繼續留任，但是我今天要跟你說，你現在要當好人，未來賴清德當總統的時候，不要把這個問題丟給他，你們這一任把它收拾得好一點。所以在你這一任院長任內，我希望公糧收購價格能調漲，給農民一個交代，讓他們能夠安心。現在他們只要看到電價，就成天煩惱他們都沒有收入，晚上都睡不好覺，雖然有睡覺，但是都睡不好。這點你有辦法答應嗎？確確實實，成本真的在上漲，不管人工、不管什麼。部長，這個問題我問你好幾次了，你……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，你剛剛說的100年上漲3塊以外，還有2塊的乾燥費，結果我們去調查，從100年到112年，整個農民收益並沒有實質增加，這是第一個，是因為……"],["陳委員超明：沒有實質的增加嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有實質增加是因為公糧只占整個稻穀收購的三成，其他的是民糧在收購的，當公糧收購價格提高的時候，面積擴大，民糧的收購價格會往下降，所以我們現在正在從整體農民收益的確保去做一個整體的規劃。"],["陳委員超明：你都跟我說公糧收購只有三成，民間的價格比較好，那三成可不是喔！三成是奉公守法的人大部分都是交公糧的耶！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我們正在調查的是，過去的成本有差不多6%至10%的上漲，可是產量也提高了。"],["陳委員超明：那本來就不太賺錢，你現在又不漲價，你說民間收購有賺，賺那一點點，這樣不合理，這是不合理的解釋！"],["陳代理部長駿季：不，農業部本身……"],["陳委員超明：我們都出身農家，我們都內行。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們照顧的不只是稻農，而是所有農民，我們都要確保他的收入，包括稻農、種玉米的、種高粱的、種大豆的，所以我們現在做整體評估，就是確保農民收益。"],["陳委員超明：張嘉郡委員剛剛講了，這個問題確實要去研究，你不要說公糧收購只占了30%，對那30%的人特別照顧，所以希望你調高一點。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，因為剛才部長有答應張委員，就讓他們去做更通盤的、站在整體提高農民收益的規劃。那個很快就會出來，一個月就會出來，讓委員看這樣好不好，大家再來討論，好不好？這個不需要太……"],["陳委員超明：說了好幾年，有做好像沒做一樣，把我們應付過去就好了，是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不會啦！陳部長不是這種人。"],["陳委員超明：接著又跟公糧有關，就是休耕轉作農作物，你們現在看這張表，11年都沒漲了。你應該要調整公糧、減少面積，把休耕轉作雜糧補助金提高一點，大家就不會去種稻米。兩隻手要如何去平衡，這是要頭腦，不是你這樣說……"],["陳代理部長駿季：感謝委員。我們現在在做的確保農民收益整體評估就是朝這個方向，除了水稻的部分怎麼樣去確保，還要針對其他種雜糧的，特別是稻田轉作這些雜糧，還有休耕的部分。"],["陳委員超明：我是農家出身，所以我跟農民很有話說，他們一直跟我反映這些，我希望你改進，這樣好嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們在整體規劃會把它同步考慮。"],["陳院長建仁：這是一個很大的工程。"],["陳委員超明：再來請教國發會主委。部長，你不能走，還有你的事情，你怎麼能走？陳部長，還沒有結束啦！"],["主席：繼續再請農業部備詢。"],["陳委員超明：看這個表，農村發展及水土保持署113年到116年農村再生計畫一共有432億預算；農田水利署農田水利跨域整合計畫114年度到117年度的預算有212億。我算是內行的，農村再生我也摸了很久，而你們地方創生摸了很久，但是國發會只有做計畫，又沒有錢，你說要跟他們匡列……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：有啦！"],["陳委員超明：為什麼我今天會特別請你們上來？農村再生很重要，地方創生也很重要，兩個要結合在一起，餅才會做大。你瞭解我講的意思嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我知道、我瞭解。"],["陳委員超明：我不要看你們做地方創生好像在放煙火，放一放，錢發下去補助，一、兩年後就不見了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不，不是！"],["陳委員超明：我跟你說，我實際看到了，我都去執行你這些計畫。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，多謝。"],["陳委員超明：所以我希望國發會的地方創生跟農業部的農村再生能結合起來，因為有好幾個計畫在推展。"],["陳代理部長駿季：其實我們的農村再生很緊密跟國發會所主導的地方創生結合……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，那個跨部會……"],["陳代理部長駿季：而且幾乎是每一季國發會主委……"],["陳委員超明：你們說結合，我去拜託你們服務，有時候大家都互相推來推去，你講的，如果沒有，我以後就找你們兩個，這樣好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員有需要的，我們會來……"],["陳委員超明：你答應我，我就不會跟你們囉唆，有答應就……這樣好嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：有需要的話，我們都會來協助。"],["陳委員超明：好，我特別請國發會上來，就是要講地方創生跟農村再生。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，沒有問題。"],["陳委員超明：因為我摸了很久，我一清二楚，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳委員超明：要互相幫忙，這樣計畫才會做得長久而且有效益，這樣好嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["陳院長建仁：好，這兩個都很重要。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為院長已經看過我們幾個地方創生案……"],["陳委員超明：再來就是農田水利署，你們說現在新的目標是要把每年浪費60%流入大海的水留住，這個計畫不簡單，我還不曉得你們如何留住。你們留這些水要給農民用，不要拿去用在民生用水跟工業用水，這樣好不好？我不知道你們這個計畫……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，過去我們農田在灌溉的時候，都是用水庫型的水，這是一種，另外一種是溪流的水，現在我們在山坡地有一些農塘可以把水留住……"],["陳委員超明：山坡地的山谷我再教你怎麼做，我以前說要推展，你們都說錢花得比較多……"],["陳代理部長駿季：特別是苗栗地區有很多農塘是值得開發的，就是有一些山坡地，如果用農塘去蓄水，蓄水完以後去引水灌溉，甚至我們有做一些滴灌的補助，所以這個部分是可以處理的。"],["陳委員超明：如果要處理，你真的要做喔！我以前都有拜託你們，講好了，但都只是做1、2個給我看一下……"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以。"],["陳委員超明：我們通霄本來鯉魚潭水庫要引水進來，它的丘陵地很多，山谷凹凹的起起伏伏，那是最好儲水的地方……"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解，委員如果有什麼建議，我們都可以虛心接受，大家一起討論。"],["陳委員超明：就這樣啦！時間快沒了，謝謝你。","再來請經濟部長王部長……"],["主席：請經濟部備詢。"],["陳委員超明：和國發會龔主委。這個問題比較大，所以把你們這幾個頭頭叫來，本來我只要請你們的副院長，但今天沒有看到他來……"],["陳院長建仁：不，不，他……"],["陳委員超明：因為大矽谷的問題，有院長在就可以了。我為什麼講苗栗縣值得更好的投資──桃竹竹苗大矽谷計畫？因為我問過國發會主委，你那時說很少到苗栗，去了一次是到我的地方龍鳳漁港剪綵，你說你有去……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是啦！我是跟你一起去啦！我去過好多次了。"],["陳委員超明：跟部長大概也是去那一次，院長只有選舉的時候去了兩、三次，還好沒有被你宰死。這個大矽谷計畫我很早就提了，我在110年10月6號時，就特別跟部長提了這個計畫，然後到了111年1月辦理會勘，就是請當初加工區管理局局長陪我去調查，花了整整一天的時間做出來，但是今天你們這個桃竹竹苗大矽谷計畫，我說院長，你實在是看我們苗栗人很沒有，你要曉得苗栗的位置怎麼樣，我們的頭份、竹南靠近新竹科學園區，是連接在一起；南邊的苑裡靠近臺中科學園區，所以發展西部科技走廊，苗栗縣你要把它貫穿起來。你看桃園園區30個，面積986公頃，新竹縣、新竹市322公頃，苗栗3個園區加起來是290公頃，真正要發展的是我們那一邊。桃園有二百多萬人口，新竹縣也滿了，新竹市也沒有地方了，現在我們提出900公頃土地，都是在竹南科學園區附近、在新竹科學園區附近，這幾個地區，從苗栗的頭份、竹南到新竹科學園區，比新竹市到新竹科學園區還要快，你們沒有在這裡好好發展，只看到桃園的票數比較多就擺在桃園，你要平衡、要縮短城鄉差距啊！拜託啦！好好照顧我們苗栗縣，不然我實在不敢回去，因為我堅持這條走廊一定要完成，這一任可能是我的最後一任，但這就是我的信念，我一直在推，我對苗栗的發展非常重視，也非常瞭解未來的發展……"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["陳委員超明：你這樣安排，害我都成為最後一名……"],["王部長美花：是，我先跟委員回應……"],["陳委員超明：苗栗縣都是最少的……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：沒有啦！那個科學園區150公頃是……"],["陳委員超明：不，不，賴總統當初宣布這個大矽谷計畫是在苗栗宣布的，我不好意思說他是抄襲我的啦，人家是要當總統的。"],["王部長美花：委員非常重視苗栗的發展，就像委員講的……"],["陳委員超明：你很瞭解啊！我每次都提出來啊！"],["王部長美花：對，我們也跟著委員去看幾個地方，現在苗栗的問題可能一定要地方政府跟中央合作，因為它公有土地比較少，所以第一個問題是私有地要怎麼解決……"],["陳委員超明：私有地部分，我們大概都有去瞭解過了，而且我們的作法很新……"],["王部長美花：是，然後還有就是地質生態的部分……"],["陳委員超明：你可以看到我們苗栗縣鍾東錦縣長的魄力及思維，我自信他能完成……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，報告委員……"],["陳委員超明：所以你瞭解我，主委！你也稍微照顧我一下。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我已經說了，我說如果縣政府他們盤點好以後，那個地質上是民間的企業可以使用，然後排除掉地質敏感區的話，那我們可以來啟動。"],["陳委員超明：好，你一定要下來，你再來苗栗，我會專程排你來苗栗考察一下。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["陳院長建仁：是啦，去看一下啦！"],["陳委員超明：陳院長，我真的很感謝你，你厚道！我看你每次看到我在場，你都不敢亂講話，都說陳超明很努力，所以民進黨不敢亂修理我，這一點特別感謝。但是我們苗栗縣的發展、讓苗栗縣變得偉大，現在就靠這一攤而已，這樣好嗎？給我們全力支持一下好嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["王部長美花：是，中央和地方大家合作。"],["陳委員超明：雖然是看守內閣，你以後有人留任的時候，都把這些全部幫我記住好不好？我這4年會好好盯著大家，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員超明的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來登記第7位陳委員秀寳質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員陳秀寳書面質詢：","1.調高老農津貼放寬排富標準保障農民權益","本席自第10屆擔任立法委員以來，陸續接獲選區許多農民陳情，希望調高老年農民福利津貼、放寬排富標準及修改因應物價水平調整老農津貼之時間間隔；因此自第10屆第7會期即開始積極關心相關議題，召開記者會，也提案修正《老年農民福利津貼暫行條例》第四條條文修正草案。去年9月中旬行政院院會公布「113年8+1項社會福利津貼調增」方案，其中老年農民福利津貼由7,550元調增至8,080元，調高了530元。本席感謝行政院的對農民的照顧，本席在新的屆期已經繼續提案修正《老年農民福利津貼暫行條例》，也想繼續跟行政院爭取支持本席提案的內容，也就是按照物價水平，讓老農津貼可以調整至8,550元，希望行政院可以先行研議，讓辛苦的農民老有所依，晚年生活有基本保障。","2.綠電發電區域　優先提供在地產業一定比例綠電","彰濱工業區設置許多風力發電機組，因為位處出海口且因地緣位置佳，風力發電量常位居全台之冠，在地居民也承受的風力發電機組帶來的不便及影響。而本席的選區有許多產業是出口到全世界的隱形冠軍，其中包含許多支撐台灣民眾日常生活的製造業；然而隨著世界相關能源政策的發展趨勢，這些產業也將面臨需要兼顧淨零轉型的產業轉型需求。以出口導向為重的台灣，產品要順利出口到世界各國，需要符合世界各國所要求的綠色能源使用比率。本席也接獲許多選區產業陳情，因為出口需求，有使用綠色能源的需求；因此本席也要替選區產業發聲，希望研議選區有使用綠色能源發電，應規定一定比例，優先提供給在地產業申請使用；以利在地產業達成我國2050淨零排放目標，並順利將產品持續出口至全世界，使產業永續發展。","3.電力即點APP使用率低應積極推廣","台電預計4月全面調漲電費，電價調整係因應國際燃料成本受疫情及戰爭影響，持續維持在高檔階段，不得不調整電價費率。本席發現台電有製作一個「電力即點」APP，提供許多小遊戲讓使用者體驗後，遊戲成果可以用來折抵電費。本席認為這是一個蠻不錯的APP，有點類似Pokemon 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text":"那一百人以後改為二十六、二十三、二十一點六塊。那這一來的人誰調了上長?是吳敦義院長。因為陳水扁當總統的時候把這個什麼都動起來不敢上場。為了選舉耀眼什麼動就討好了。"},{"start":122.396,"end":136.876,"text":"現在我們蔡英文總統做了發言,這個也不敢漲,連電價都不敢漲,現在整個要一起漲,這個是嚴重的問題。但是剛剛張建均有講過了,我們的回量,"},{"start":138.154,"end":164.288,"text":"我們的農藥我們的藥苗都在漲價那其實不但你在回答說你算得很精那我到鄉下跟農民在一起的時候天天都跟我們抱怨工糧收購的價格收穫起來一家都貪不盡能放所以現在電價上漲什麼物價上漲你工糧沒有上漲的時候農民會極大的感嘆"},{"start":166.468,"end":170.058,"text":"所謂今天跟陳院長,我看你會繼續繼續留住嗎?你現在要做什麼?"},{"start":174.448,"end":200.833,"text":"我們未來的賴清德當總統的時候不要這個問題丟給他。 你們這一代把他收拾好一下。 所以在你追政的院長之內我希望功能能調整。 給農民安心的一個交代。 現在他們每天看電視反而都沒有收入。 晚上都睡不好覺雖然有睡覺但是都睡不好覺。"},{"start":202.082,"end":216.469,"text":"你覺得有辦法答應,確確實實,成本真的在上漲,不管人工不管什麼,保證我問你幾個點,你現在怎麼明明...我跟委員報告齁,你剛才說的這一百年上漲了3塊以外還有2塊的一個乾燥費齁,結果我們去調查了從100年到112年,整個的農民收益並沒有實質的增加,這是第一個。"},{"start":231.977,"end":242.883,"text":"是因為工糧只佔整個稻谷的收購的三成其他的是民糧在收購的當你工糧收購提高的時候面積擴大民糧的收購價格往下降"},{"start":245.064,"end":264.806,"text":"所以我們現在正在規劃就是從整體的農民的收益的確保去做一個整體的規劃。您都這樣說供糧收購只有三成民間的價格比較好,那三成的不是,三成是奉公所法的,大部分都是交供糧的。我們現在在調查就是說"},{"start":267.268,"end":280.253,"text":"國企的成本有差不多6%至10%的上漲,可是產量也提高了。本來就沒什麼賺錢,你現在又不去,你民間收購的有一點賺,賺了那一點點啦,這樣沒合理的啦,沒有合理的錢就好啦。我跟委員報告說,農業沒軍心,農民我們都外行的啦。"},{"start":287.796,"end":305.863,"text":"我們要購買的不是稻農,我們的所有農民我們都要確保他的收入,包括稻農、包括種玉米的、種高粱的、種大豆的。 所以我們現在做整體的一個評估啦,就是確保農民收益。觀眾會員剛剛講了,這個問題確實要去研究,你不要說只有供糧收購的話占了30%,那30%的人特別照顧,所以希望你調高一點。"},{"start":315.147,"end":316.368,"text":"委員這樣啦,因為剛才我們部長有跟張委員答應"},{"start":321.343,"end":333.391,"text":"說讓他們去做一個更通盤的站在整體提高農民收益的這個規劃,他那也很快就會出來嘛,一各位出來,讓委員看說這樣好不好,跟大家再來扣輪啦,好不好?"},{"start":352.044,"end":367.819,"text":"轉做農作物,你現在看這個表,11年都沒去,你應該要調整工糧,你要給他減少面積,你那個休耕轉做雜糧的時候,你把他拿到館裡,大家就不會去種,"},{"start":368.76,"end":372.443,"text":"你要兩個數字去平衡阿,這是要靠採訪,不是你這樣去做。"},{"start":399.44,"end":401.221,"text":"看這個表,農村發展期水土保持113年到116年"},{"start":426.892,"end":439.656,"text":"一共有432億,那個前瞻計畫,農村再生的計畫,農田水利市有農田水利跨域整合的計畫,114年度到117年度,212億。"},{"start":445.174,"end":460.838,"text":"我相信這是有內行的,農村再生我會摸了很久,你地方創生摸了很久,但是你國發會只有做計畫又沒有錢,你說要跟他們匡列,我這裡安若驚特別會請你來,農村再生很重要,"},{"start":464.759,"end":481.885,"text":"地方創生也很重要,兩個要結合在一起,餅才會做到,你了解我講的意思嗎?我把一看就你們做,你們地方創生跟他去幫演會,幫幫的,喔,今天播種,一兩年就不見了。我講地方創生,我實際看到了啦,我都在執行你這計畫,所以我希望你國發會的地方,"},{"start":493.208,"end":500.21,"text":"我跟委員報告,其實農村再生其實我們很緊密的跟國會所主導的地方是做做結合的,而且幾乎是每一季,國會主委這邊..."},{"start":518.596,"end":522.983,"text":"委員你有需要的,你都需要,我們都會來協助啊,就是有需要的話我們都會來協助。好,這次來你國會會我特別請你起來"},{"start":531.736,"end":545.341,"text":"我就是要講地方創生跟農村再生,因為我摸了很久我一稱二詞好不好,有做就要有幫忙起來,這樣結尾做完會久久長久有效益,這樣好不好?因為院長已經看過我們幾個地方創生案"},{"start":552.064,"end":564.718,"text":"你們說現在新的目標把每年浪費的60%流自大海的水要流自,我覺得各位不簡單。我還不曉得你們怎麼流自。您老家水要給農民來用。"},{"start":567.1,"end":572.787,"text":"不去提民生用水、去工業用水,這樣好不好?我不知道你這個計劃好不好?我看你們的計劃好不好?"},{"start":581.957,"end":583.338,"text":"我如果邀請你你真的要做我以前都有拜託你們講好好"},{"start":609.189,"end":627.84,"text":"我只是做了一兩個給我看一下。 那我們通宵裡面本來李一潭水庫要引水進來的。 他的丘陵地很多。 他的山谷嗷嗷起起服務那是最好帶水的地方。 委員如果有什麼建議我們都可以去進來接受來一起討論。 時間要沒了,謝謝你。 再來我就請我們經濟部長、國會主委"},{"start":644.022,"end":662.894,"text":"這個問題比較大,把你們這幾個頭叫來,本來我只要請你們的副院長,今天沒有看到哪,因為大溪谷有院長在就能啦。我為什麼講苗栗縣值得更好投資,陶瓷指苗大溪谷去玩,因為我看到我問過"},{"start":664.659,"end":692.348,"text":"我們的國安會主委的時候,你那時候很早到苗栗,去了一次是在我的地方,龍鳳漁港去減產,你說你有去。不是啊,我是跟你一起去啊,我去過很多次。 阿部長大概也去那一次,院長只有選舉的時候去了兩三次,還好沒有騙你宅死。這個大巨股計畫我很早就提了。我在110年10月6號部長的時候,我就特別提了這個。"},{"start":693.362,"end":720.448,"text":"然後到了111人也有辦理會刊,我這個地方就是我們當時的加工機長員那個機長我請他們去陪我調查,花了一天整整一天的時間做事啦。但是今天你這個大桃子子廟大事故計畫,我一定你想看完廟了人生。"},{"start":722.008,"end":748.244,"text":"你要曉瞭苗栗的位置是怎樣我們的投汶直攬是靠近新竹科技的前期連結在一起我們南邊的縣裡是靠近台中的科學運氣所以發展西部科技走廊苗栗縣裡要把它貫穿起來我現在看到你再來下一張你看桃園386公頃"},{"start":752.202,"end":771.059,"text":"新竹新竹市322公頃,苗栗3個加起來290公頃,真正的要發展是我們在那一邊啦,討厭200多萬的人口,新竹縣新竹縣也滿了,新竹市也沒有地方了。"},{"start":772.284,"end":789.502,"text":"所以我特別要求我們現在提出900公頃出來都在竹蘭科學園區的附近在新竹科學園區的附近我們這幾個地區從苗栗的竹蘭到新竹科學園區比新竹市道"},{"start":792.807,"end":812.032,"text":"你們只看到桃園的票數比較多就擺在桃園,你要平衡,要縮短城鄉的差距,拜託啦好好照顧我們,你先不來我實在不敢回去,因為我堅持這條走廊我一定要完成。"},{"start":813.582,"end":825.53,"text":"這一陣來啃我最後一陣,這就是我的信念,我一直在推,我對苗栗的發展非常重視,我會了解未來的發展,你這樣給我變成我都最好一名。我先跟委員回應,苗栗限購是最少的,"},{"start":834.144,"end":861.572,"text":"沒有啦,那個科學園區150工刑是...那總統當時宣布這個大矽谷計畫是在苗栗宣布的勒,我不好意思他超虛偶的啦,人家做種種的啦。委員非常重視苗栗的發展,就像委員講的,對,我們也跟著委員去看幾個地方,那現在苗栗的問題可能一定要地方政府跟中央來合作,因為他公有的地比較少。"},{"start":862.532,"end":879.495,"text":"所以他的第一個問題就是私有地這個怎麼解決。 我們私有地我們大概都有去了解過了。 那所以還有就是地質生態的部分要避開。 你可以看到苗栗縣中東景縣長的魄力、他的思維。 我自信他能完成。 你了解我。"},{"start":880.711,"end":908.096,"text":"主委啊,你也稍微給我照顧一下。我講嘛,我講縣政府他現在他們盤點好以後那個地質上是民間的企業可以使用,然後在地質敏感排除到地質敏感區的話,那我們也來啟動。我會專程派你來苗栗考察一下。主委長我真的很感謝你,你後到那一次我看你每次看到我在場你都不敢亂講話,都說陳超明很無力。"},{"start":909.876,"end":920.587,"text":"所謂民進黨不敢亂修理,我這一點特別感謝。但是我苗栗縣的發展,讓苗栗縣變得偉大,我現在把他扣一塊而已,這樣好不好?"},{"start":920.587,"end":921.989,"text":"把我們轉到旗旗界好不好?"},{"start":935.63,"end":943.742,"text":"謝謝陳委員超明的質詢,謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來登記第七位陳委員秀寶,質詢以書面提出。"}]}},{"id":"149728","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149728","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a2938224a53e55396770904b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a6231dcb1897cc80d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"15:54:28 - 16:10:06","影片長度":"00:15:38","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":938,"end_time":"2024-03-12T16:10:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T15:54:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":404,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（15時54分）院長，我想請陳院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝院長。首先我想感謝陳院長在2月27號那一天，丁學忠委員質詢的時候承諾願意開始調漲公糧收購的價格，請問院長記得嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：公糧收購這一個部分，農業部有它一貫的政策，農業部現在在研議的過程當中……"],["張委員嘉郡：已經過兩週，不曉得到目前為止……"],["陳院長建仁：但是這裡面有一個很重要的部分，就是我們希望能夠提高農民的收益。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯。那一天之後，其實農民都為之沸騰，覺得院長是一個真正苦民所苦，願意為農民思考的院長，所以我在這裡也拜託農業部部長，是不是能夠儘速提出方案，趕快提高公糧收購價格？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想跟委員說明，經濟委員會有一個決議，我們會在1個月之內，就提高農民收益做完整的規劃。我在這邊要跟委員說明，提高農民的收益有非常多方法，我們會做完整的規劃，1個月以後會跟經濟委員會還有所有的委員報告。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這一點我當然非常清楚，因為那一天我有質詢部長。這個我問院長，可能院長比較不能夠理解，但是我那一天問部長秧苗一盤多少錢？我還問他插秧費多少錢？整地費多少錢？我問他13年前的，他不知道，我覺得情有可原，但是我問他現在的，他也不知道。"],["陳院長建仁：這個比較專業。"],["張委員嘉郡：我不曉得經過上週之後，現在部長記得我上個禮拜問你的……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道，但是我要跟委員說明……"],["張委員嘉郡：你知道答案嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：那一次委員說我不瞭解成本，針對各項的部分我不夠瞭解，但是對於整個、每公頃的生產成本，像農藥、肥料、秧苗的部分，我是知道的。"],["張委員嘉郡：都飆漲了，你看基本工資從2011年到2024年已經調漲53%，我們的稻作成本大大成長了20、30%，到現在我們的公糧收購價格還是13年前的，13年前就是本席在這裡提出，說一定要照顧農民。這一點我其實看了也非常難過，我希望部長能夠把農民記在心上。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會整體規劃，不過我先說明一下，它整體的生產成本有提高大概6%到10%，這個我們有算出來，但是因為……"],["張委員嘉郡：超過。"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我們是不同地區的平均。"],["張委員嘉郡：我沒有想要在這裡跟你辯論。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道。但是我要跟委員報告，從10年前到現在，它的產量也有提高。"],["張委員嘉郡：13年前。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，它的產量也有提高。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，我讓你看一段影片，好不好？也請院長看一下這一段影片。","（播放影片）"],["張委員嘉郡：院長，這一段影片的訴求是給農民一點公平，您知道這個影片是誰拍的嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我不太清楚。"],["張委員嘉郡：這一段影片是民進黨黨中央在2011年拍的影片，影片裡面說米價他們講多少就多少，結果肥料一直漲，誰受得了？這一段影片真的非常符合現況，十幾年都不調漲公糧收購價格。我想要請問院長，你看這段影片的感受為何？"],["陳院長建仁：如果肥料、成本在漲，公糧沒有漲，就某個角度來看，確實需要全面檢討，就像剛才提到研議怎麼樣的方式會比較好，但是我們還是要看整體農民的效益。據我所知道的，現在有進步，產量也有大量增加，所以就像剛才講的，整個公糧的收購價錢要如何需要盤點。"],["張委員嘉郡：我只希望聽院長這一句話，您願意聽農民的心聲，就是我們想要在這裡為農民表達的。"],["陳院長建仁：也謝謝你反映心聲。"],["張委員嘉郡：院長現在是行政機關的最高首長，我們真的需要你理解農民的辛苦，尤其……"],["陳院長建仁：我有很多朋友是農民。"],["張委員嘉郡：我也想再請問院長，你知道公糧收購價格制度已經實施多少年嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：民國63年開始實施，好久了。"],["張委員嘉郡：它已經實施50年。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：自從上任之後，第一次在議事廳發表，說希望提高公糧收購價格之後，非常多的網軍側翼一直在攻擊提高公糧收購價格是在圖利中間廠商，我就想問院長跟部長，難道這50年來我們的政府都在圖利中間廠商嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不過我想跟委員報告，當時的公糧收購有當時的環境背景，針對這麼多年來，我剛才說的，雖然它的成本……"],["張委員嘉郡：我就問有沒有嘛？有沒有圖利中間廠商？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有……"],["張委員嘉郡：沒有！沒有嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這是兩碼子事。"],["張委員嘉郡：我就想要問你啊！你身為農業部部長，應該要知道，部長，你知不知道？有沒有嘛？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我想有沒有圖利中間商人，我們公糧收購價格的提高絕對不是為了……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，沒錯！就是要照顧農民，所以我在這裡就是想要求部長，假設真的有圖利中間廠商，這也是你農業部的職責，要去把它揪出來，要讓這些補助可以送到農民手上，讓農民真正可以拿到，這才是你的職責，你不能夠因為這種虛幻的理由來阻擋公糧收購價格的提高啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為我沒有看到媒體報導，不過基本上公糧收購價格提高，從過去的經驗可以知道，它的面積就會提高，面積提高以後，產地的價格就會降低，是這樣的一個循環。"],["張委員嘉郡：我覺得當初陳吉仲說要增加收購的數量，那才是錯的，好不好？那才有可能會增加面積。所以，就像剛剛蘇清泉委員講的，他給你留了多少爛攤子，你知道嗎？","最後，現在是萬物齊漲，農民表達希望調漲公糧收購價格，這樣一點小小的心聲難道不合理嗎？所以我在這裡特別拜託院長，能夠再一次的正面承諾，在交接以前做決定，讓我們上百萬的農民都能記得這是陳建仁院長照顧農民的決定。"],["陳院長建仁：我想公糧收購的價格應該有一個更高位的目標，就是要全面提升農民的收益，在增加農民收益的前提下，我們可以來做相關的分析、檢討。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝院長。","我也想要再提醒一下部長，很多農民問我，不管是老農或年輕農民，他們都問我說巴拉刈到底要禁止到幾時？這麼便宜又好用的農藥為什麼要禁止呢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想跟委員說明，巴拉刈被禁是因為它是一種劇毒農藥，而且當時在農村的……"],["張委員嘉郡：我完全理解你要說的理由，但是我現在是在轉達農民的心聲。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們有替代的藥劑。"],["張委員嘉郡：包括老農年金是不是能夠調漲，現在我們提案要調到1萬2,000元，你們同意嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想整個老農年金的改變，一定要配合其他的八大社福基金，這是第一點；第二點就是我們也針對其中門檻的部分，做了相關的建議……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，部長，我想時間有限，我只是在這裡提醒你，這些都要列入考量。為什麼公糧收購價格不漲、老農年金不漲，電價要漲？所以我可不可以接下來問一下王美花部長？"],["主席：請經濟部備詢。"],["張委員嘉郡：院長，看起來經濟部是已經決定電價非漲不可的政策了，我想要請問院長，您認為現在是調漲的好時機嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：確實現在這個時機我們需要檢討，所以才會讓電價審議委員會認真的就電價來討論，最主要的原因我剛才已經講過，就是我們所有燃料的價格在俄烏戰爭以後是大量的增加，台電已經有滿大的虧損。"],["張委員嘉郡：其實我也很擔心院長沒有接收到最新的訊息，其實在俄烏戰爭的時候，能源價格的確是大大的上漲了，但是到目前為止已經落到接近戰爭前的價格，為什麼我們還要大漲呢？我現在看到的是主計總處公布的資料，2月份的CPI已經破三了，漲幅高達3.08%，目前的實質薪資負成長1.04%，這是從2013年來最大的一個漲幅，您還認為這是一個調漲的好時機嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，委員，我們每次講這個CPI的增加都是要看去年的基期，你看我們1月份的時候CPI很低，因為去年的1月份剛好是農曆年，所以那個基期高；今年剛好農曆年是在2月，基期低，所以我們1月份的CPI很低，但是到2月份的時候變成農曆年了，然後2月份的基底低，所以會上來。所以看那個CPI的增加，一定要看……"],["張委員嘉郡：這個是現在的CPI……"],["陳院長建仁：對……"],["張委員嘉郡：但是未來假設調漲之後……"],["陳院長建仁：所以根據我們的估計，它是會下降的。"],["張委員嘉郡：CPI隨之而漲以後，會產生多少衝擊，就是這一點還是要請您納入考量。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我跟委員報告，我們在前2年電價調整的時候都有作很細緻的調整，最主要的目的，為什麼我們沒有像外國一樣一調就是60%、80%？就是因為不要讓物價大量調漲，所以我們的作法是很精細的，相對於世界上其他的國家，我們是把電價作為物價上漲的消波塊來做。我們這一次也當然是會這樣，當然我們比你們更……我們是更關心物價的影響。"],["張委員嘉郡：我理解，但是我還想問院長，針對台電虧損，就好像你說能源波動，台電虧損，去年跟前年我們都分別編列預算增資1,500億、1,000億，還有特別預算補貼500億，目前已經累積虧損3,820億。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在又從報紙上看到，王部長決定今年可能會再從超徵稅收裡面再補貼1,500億，這個屬實嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：他們有提出來。"],["王部長美花：我們有申請。"],["陳院長建仁：有申請，對。"],["王部長美花：但是院裡面現在還在試算……"],["陳院長建仁：還在試算。"],["王部長美花：可以補貼的部分。"],["陳院長建仁：就是這樣才夠。"],["張委員嘉郡：我不理解的地方就是，所有百姓也不理解，我們既然已經要撥1,500億補貼台電了，為什麼還要漲電價？"],["陳院長建仁：那個理由很簡單，你看看以燃料費的情況來看，就虧損了3,800億耶！今年若是又1,800億，就五千多億。如果像國外的作法，就一次漲50%、100%，但是臺灣不可以這樣漲電價，所以我們才漲8%、11%。"],["王部長美花：簡單講就是過往政府給台電的資金跟補貼的經費，跟台電2年的虧損來比，虧損還是遠大於那個撥補的部分。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["張委員嘉郡：我簡單講一下，就是為什麼會有這個虧損，是不是能源政策有錯？這個是值得檢討。但我今天的訴求很簡單，就是希望330度以下的民生用電可以凍漲。","我也想要請問院長，不曉得這一次漲電價的內容裡面有沒有包含漁業用電、有沒有包含農業用電？希望能夠為農民、漁民請願，凍漲漁業用電跟凍漲農業用電。就這一點，院長，可以請你承諾本席嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝你幫弱勢族群還有這些農業提出你的訴求。但是我剛才講過，電價的調漲是蠻專業的，需要電價審議委員會評估，但是我們會請他們來做……"],["張委員嘉郡：那請問一下，假設調漲是經濟部一定調漲，農業部有沒有針對漁業用電、農業用電有因應的措施……"],["陳院長建仁：相關的訊息都會在審議委員會裡面討論。"],["張委員嘉郡：對於這個調漲的部分有沒有因應的措施，或者會相對應地補助、補貼這些農民或漁民？就是這一點希望院長可以納入考量。","最後一點，我也希望在這裡跟院長介紹我們雲林縣的一個優勢，因為大家現在都在討論台積電到底要去哪裡、到底台積電的先進製程要落在哪一個城市？我也藉這個機會跟院長還有部長說一下，雲林縣的優點就是我們有超過1,200公頃的公有土地、台糖土地，完全是希望院長跟部長可以支持。另外我們北有竹科、南有南科，可以形成產業鏈，甚至因為1,200公頃的土地，未來台積電如果落腳在雲林的話，它未來二十年、三十年的發展有足夠的一個腹地。甚至我們有兩所國立科技大學，雲科大、虎科大可以為台積電甚至其他的高科技產業培育專業的人才之外，我們有充沛的水資源，湖山水庫蓄水高達5,347公頃，還有集集攔河堰等等。包括我們有風力發電等等，都希望行政院跟經濟部可以把雲林納進考量，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["主席：謝謝張委員嘉郡的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第6號陳委員超明質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":0.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.99284375,"end":2.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3.06846875,"end":4.6040937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.414093750000001,"end":6.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.738468750000003,"end":22.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.930343750000002,"end":33.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.37596875,"end":37.915343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.13096875,"end":44.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.994718750000004,"end":64.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":64.79721875,"end":87.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.83596875,"end":90.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.03784375000001,"end":97.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.00721875,"end":114.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.18596875,"end":121.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":115.35471875,"end":117.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":119.65784375000001,"end":136.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.58409375000002,"end":132.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.40221875,"end":138.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.65909375,"end":140.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.85284375,"end":145.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.34159375000002,"end":162.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":162.11534375000002,"end":162.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.13221875000002,"end":162.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.63846875000002,"end":167.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":166.38471875000002,"end":177.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.44221875000002,"end":177.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":177.82596875000002,"end":184.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.93534375000002,"end":182.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":184.50846875000002,"end":190.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.24221875,"end":194.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.44846875000002,"end":190.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.71784375000001,"end":196.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.87346875,"end":200.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.92784375000002,"end":204.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.91034375,"end":206.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":205.21409375000002,"end":206.00721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":206.81721875000002,"end":207.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.11221875,"end":209.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.80409375000002,"end":211.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.52534375000002,"end":215.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.18284375000002,"end":218.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.52409375000002,"end":220.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.29596875000001,"end":237.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.61409375000002,"end":248.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.56596875000002,"end":284.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.12596875,"end":307.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.58034375,"end":293.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.04721875,"end":301.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":301.08096875,"end":302.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":307.98284375000003,"end":310.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.83909375,"end":312.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":312.03284375000004,"end":312.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.19721875000005,"end":313.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":314.63159375000004,"end":339.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":339.37034375,"end":348.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":347.31846875,"end":351.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":349.76534375,"end":350.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":350.15346875,"end":353.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":352.27971875000003,"end":358.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":358.75971875000005,"end":359.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":360.09284375000004,"end":367.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":360.32909375,"end":360.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":366.11721875,"end":371.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.49596875000003,"end":378.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":379.38096875,"end":381.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.31721875000005,"end":396.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":396.47534375000004,"end":408.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":407.78159375,"end":450.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.03346875000005,"end":443.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.74534375,"end"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裡也拜託農業部我們部長是不是能夠盡速的把這個方案提出來趕快來提高公糧收購的價格"},{"start":64.998,"end":89.78,"text":"我想跟委員說明在經濟委員會的時候就是經濟委員會有個決議就是我們會在一個月之內就提高農民收益的部分做一個完整的規劃那我在這邊要跟委員說明就是提高農民的收益有非常非常多的方法我們會做一個完整的規劃到時候在一個月以後會跟我們的經濟委員會還有所有的委員報告是這一點當然我非常清楚因為那一天我質詢"},{"start":91.081,"end":114.219,"text":"部長啊 這個我問院長可能院長比較不能夠理解但是呢我那一天問了部長說央苗一盤多少錢我還問了他說插秧費多少錢整地費多少錢我問他13年前的他不知道我覺得是情有可原但是呢我問他現在的他也不知道"},{"start":115.239,"end":119.702,"text":"我不曉得說經過了上週之後,現在部長記得我上個禮拜問你的,你知道答案嗎?"},{"start":119.702,"end":137.933,"text":"我知道,但是我要跟委員說明,就是我對於整體的,因為剛才那次委員說我不了解成本,但是針對各項的部分我不夠了解,但是對於整個的一個每公頃的生產成本,好像農藥的部分、肥料的部分、薑苗的部分,我就知道了。 已經都飆漲了,都飆漲了,你看喔。"},{"start":138.993,"end":161.847,"text":"基本工資從2011年到2024年已經調漲了53%但是我們到座成本大大成長了2、30%到現在我們的工糧收購已經13年前13年前就是本席在這裡提出說一定要照顧農民那這一點我其實看了"},{"start":162.748,"end":183.85,"text":"也非常難過,我希望部長能夠把農民記在身上。 我想我們會做整體的規模,不過我這邊先說明一下,雖然說他整體的生產成本有提高大概6到10%,這個我們有算出來。 超過,超過。 沒有,這個我們是不同地區的一個平均。 我沒有想要在這裡跟你辯論。 我知道,但是我要跟委員報告的就是,"},{"start":184.631,"end":194.04,"text":"因為從10年前到現在他的產量也有提高。 我讓你看一段影片好不好,院長也請您看一下這段影片。"},{"start":209.861,"end":220.358,"text":"您知道這段影片訴求是給農民一點公平。您知道這個影片是誰拍的嗎?我不太清楚。"},{"start":221.565,"end":247.693,"text":"這一段影片是民進黨黨中央在2011年拍的影片。他影片裡面說的,米家人說多少就多少,結果肥料一直去,誰動會掉。這一段影片真的非常符合現在的現況。十幾年來都不調漲公糧收購的價格。我想要請問院長,你看了這段影片,您的感受為何?"},{"start":248.618,"end":266.105,"text":"如果說是肥料在賬、成本在賬、公糧沒有賬,就某個角度上來看,確實是需要有來做全面的檢討,就像剛才言議,什麼樣的方式會比較好,但是我們還是要看"},{"start":266.67,"end":269.633,"text":"我只希望說聽院長這句話我覺得您願意聽農民的心聲就是我們想要在這裡為農民表達的"},{"start":291.833,"end":306.95,"text":"因為呢,院長現在是行政機關的最高首長了。你知道我們真的需要你理解農民的辛苦。尤其呢,我也想再請問院長,你知道公糧收購價格這個制度已經實施了多少年嗎?他已經實施了50年。"},{"start":313.243,"end":329.096,"text":"自從在上任之後第一次在議事廳發表說希望提高公糧收購價格之後呢非常多的網軍側翼一直在攻擊說提高收購公糧收購價格"},{"start":330.177,"end":358.052,"text":"是在圖利中間廠商。我就想問院長跟部長,難道這50年來我們的政府都在圖利中間廠商嗎?不過我想跟委員報告齁,當時的公糧的一個收購有當時的一個環境背景。那針對這麼多年來,我剛才說的,雖然說他的成本...你就問說有沒有嗎?有沒有圖利中間廠商?沒有。這是兩碼子的事。我就想要問你啊,你身為農委會的,農委會你應該要知道,你部長你知不知道有沒有嗎?"},{"start":358.792,"end":381.247,"text":"沒有,我想有沒有圖利中天商人,我們的公糧的收購價格的提高,絕對不是為了商人。 是,沒錯,就是要照顧農民,所以我在這裡就是想要求部長,假設真的有圖利中天廠商,這也是你農業部的職責,要去把他揪出來,要讓這些真正的"},{"start":382.512,"end":406.162,"text":"這些補助可以去拿到農民的手上,是農民真正可以拿到,這才是你的職責。您不能夠因為這種虛幻的理由來阻擋公糧收購價格的提高啊。因為你們有看到說那個媒體報告,不過基本上公糧收購提高從過去的經驗它的面積就會提高,面積提高以後產地的價格就會降低。"},{"start":407.723,"end":421.735,"text":"我覺得這個是當初陳吉仲說他要增加收購的數量那才是錯好不好那才有可能說會增加面積所以呢就像剛剛蘇清絕委員講的他給你留了多少爛攤子你知道嗎"},{"start":422.395,"end":449.57,"text":"我最後呢,針對這個議題呢,現在是萬物齊仗,農民希望表達調帳公糧收購價格,這樣一點小小的心聲,難道不合理嗎?所以我在這裡特別的拜託院長,能夠再一次的正面承諾說,是不是能夠在交接以前做決定,讓我們上百萬的農民都能記得說是陳建仁院長照顧的農民。"},{"start":450.851,"end":474.905,"text":"我想這一個公糧收購的這個價格應該有一個更高位的這個目標啦就是要來全面提升這個農民的收益那在這樣的一個增加農民收益的權體下我們可以來做相關的分析檢討謝謝謝謝那剛剛我也想要再提醒一下就是部長"},{"start":475.845,"end":502.288,"text":"就是很多農民問我不管是老農不管是年輕的農民他們都問我說巴拉瓜到底要禁止到幾時這麼便宜又好用的農藥為什麼要禁止它呢我想跟委員說明巴拉瓜本身被禁因為它是一個劇毒農藥而且當時在農村的地區我完全理解你要說的理由但是我現在就是在跟你"},{"start":503.427,"end":528.396,"text":"我們有替代的藥劑轉達轉達農民的心聲包括老農年金是不是能夠調漲現在我們提案說要調到一萬二你們同意嗎我想整個老農年金的一個一個改變一定要配合其他的八大社福的一個基金的第一點第二點部分就是我們也針對了裡面部分的的一些有關門檻的部分我們也做了相當的建議"},{"start":528.976,"end":532.838,"text":"院長,我看起來經濟部是已經決定這個政策非漲不可,就是電價非漲不可。我想要請問院長說,您認為現在是調漲的好時機嗎?"},{"start":561.161,"end":579.856,"text":"確實現在這個時機我們是需要檢討,所以才會讓電價審議委員會來認真地就電價的部分來討論。那最主要的原因我剛才已經講過,就是我們所有的這個染料的價格是在二、五戰爭以後是大量的增加,那台電已經有蠻大的虧損。"},{"start":580.737,"end":606.868,"text":"其實我也很擔心說院長沒有接收到最新的訊息。其實在二屋戰爭的時候,能源價格的確是大大的提漲了。但是呢,到目前為止已經落到將近戰爭前的這樣子的價格。為什麼我們還要大漲呢?我想要,我現在看到的是主計總處公佈的資料。二月份的CPI已經破3了,漲幅高達3.08%。"},{"start":608.689,"end":608.889,"text":"委員那個我們"},{"start":622.864,"end":623.504,"text":"這是現在的CPI,對,但是呢"},{"start":650.93,"end":651.731,"text":"我跟委員報告我們在做"},{"start":663.524,"end":663.604,"text":"﹚張嘉郡"},{"start":683.584,"end":685.847,"text":"我理解但是我還想問院長就是說"},{"start":702.124,"end":711.727,"text":"針對臺電虧損就好像說你說能源波動臺電虧損去年跟前年我們都分別已經編列預算增資1500億、1000億還有特別預算補貼500億目前已經累積虧損3820億那我現在又從報紙上看到說王部長決定今年可能會再從這個超增稅收裡面再補貼1500億這個屬實嗎?"},{"start":729.537,"end":754.264,"text":"他們有提出來﹚我們有申請但是院裡面現在還在試算可以補貼的部分﹚就是這樣才夠捏這樣這樣比較合格捏﹚我沒了解的地方就是說所有百姓也不理解說我們既然已經要撥1500億補貼台電了為什麼我們還要漲電價﹚那個理由很簡單就是你看看他這個以這個燃料費的情況來看就虧損了3800億的今年那個1800億的5000多億"},{"start":759.125,"end":763.969,"text":"所以簡單講就是過往政府給台電的資金跟補貼的經費跟台電兩年的虧損來比,這虧損還是遠大於撥補的部分。"},{"start":780.983,"end":796.959,"text":"我簡單講一下就是說為什麼會有這個虧損是不是能源政策有錯這個是值得檢討但我今天的訴求很簡單就是希望民生用電330度以下的這個民生用電可以動長我也想要請問院長說不曉得這一次漲電價的這個"},{"start":801.263,"end":801.283,"text":"謝謝你幫"},{"start":817.847,"end":820.148,"text":"請問一下農業部有沒有,假設調漲是經濟部會一定調漲,那農業部有沒有針對漁業用電、農業用電"},{"start":840.152,"end":841.875,"text":"這相關的信息都會在審議委員會裏面報告?"},{"start":855.754,"end":883.092,"text":"院長介紹一下我們雲林縣的一個優勢因為大家現在都在討論說臺積電到底要去哪裡啊臺積電到底他的先進製程要落在哪一個城市那我也借這個機會跟院長還有部長說一下我們雲林縣的優點就是我們有超過1200公頃的公有土地臺塘土地這是完全是希望說院長跟部長可以支持"},{"start":883.672,"end":911.304,"text":"另外就是說我們北有竹科南有南科可以形成產業鏈甚至因為1200公頃的土地它未來台積電如果落腳在雲林的話它未來20年30年的發展它有足夠的一個腹地甚至呢我們有兩所國立科技大學雲科大虎科大可以為台積電甚至其他的高科技產業來培育專業的人才之外呢我們有充沛的水資源"},{"start":911.704,"end":914.046,"text":"謝謝張委員嘉峻的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第6號陳委員昌明質詢。"}]}},{"id":"149727","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149727","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a2938fe482c17c244e09004b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a6b066f83588e7a26e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"15:38:32 - 15:54:09","影片長度":"00:15:37","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":937,"end_time":"2024-03-12T15:54:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T15:38:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":287,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（15時38分）謝謝主席，我們請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：蘇委員午安，恭喜你當選立委，很高興看到你在這裡。"],["蘇委員清泉：我是新科的老兵啦。院長，你現在要做到520之前，之後你的任期也可能會結束啦……"],["陳院長建仁：是，會結束。"],["蘇委員清泉：我要請你講一講，對於你們內閣的表現，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["陳院長建仁：我感覺……我都不替自己打分數的，但是我的內閣我們的同仁大家都很認真、很努力，過去你如果看我們的經濟成長也好，或是防疫的工作也好，或是農業發展也好，委員你也很清楚嘛，都有進步，所以我感覺確確實實大家都在做福國利民的事情，我很感謝他們。"],["蘇委員清泉：今天媒體也報了很多，我們經濟部剛才我們的部長有說，但是五缺的問題，再來蛋的問題，我們的數位部唐鳳部長網路作戰的問題，還有我們的農業部，喔，問題有夠多的。我們屏東是農業縣，包括巴拉刈被禁止使用、開放萊豬，然後還有班班吃石斑，我等一下就要說石斑了。"],["陳院長建仁：對，石斑……"],["蘇委員清泉：也跳票了，然後雞蛋的問題，還有交通部違規記點的問題搞得大家都在譙，這都是小破口、大破口，在這次的選舉就被人家狠狠的攻擊，所以你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["陳院長建仁：我也是覺得確確實實我們有一些應該要改進、還需要再進步的地方，但是我們也很感謝，我們臺灣的人民也確確實實有看到我們民進黨進步的地方，所以才會讓我們民進黨有繼續執政的機會，這也是在賴清德副總統未來帶領的時候，我想我們的新內閣和舊內閣一定會無縫接軌，繼續來努力，讓臺灣的經濟越來越好，讓大家的生活過得愈來愈美滿。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們請農業部長也上來。"],["主席：請農業部備詢。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：你有沒有認同陳吉仲給你帶來很多很多的麻煩？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們陳前部長本身在過去這七、八年來其實做了非常多過去三、四十年沒有做的農業政策改革。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，我現在開始講我們的屏東縣，我們全臺灣的農業人口包括農業、漁業加起來差不多80萬，將近81萬，屏東縣就占了38萬，所以農業、漁業、養殖等等對屏東縣來講是很重要的，是重中之重。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯。"],["蘇委員清泉：然後現在的總統還是屏東枋山的人，但是我不覺得你們有照顧我們屏東的農漁民，不太有在照顧，就像是放生一樣，讓我們自生自滅。"],["陳院長建仁：我剛好在禮拜天才去屏東，屏東有很多冷鏈、包裝的技術等等，還有水果的發展也很好，當然有一些外銷的部分因為外銷國的抵制讓我們有一些困難，我們一定會努力來拓展其他更多的外銷。"],["蘇委員清泉：我跟院長講一下，我們韓院長在高雄那邊也很認真，我們屏東的石斑跟午仔魚1年的產值超過一百多億，所以在2022年6月中國大陸那邊停掉之後，我們就很積極的在處理，我跟全國漁會前理事長黃一成拚得要死，包括水質管理、履歷、QR Code、藥檢等等，跟屏東科技大學非常密切，一趟來、一趟去。那我要跟部長報告，對岸的海關總署不是吃素的，它也很嚴格，我們這邊是很低的檢出，他們是要求零檢出，包括土黴素、四環素，院長，你也是做了很多的實驗。最近有7家養殖業者有通過，我們真的是非常用心的輔導，然後現在量也出來了，我們的珍珠斑、龍虎斑本來1臺斤都差不多100元、110元、120元，最近已經漲到190元、200元、210元了，1隻魚苗直接從15元漲到26元，真的是很令人欣慰。漁業署應該要配合來鼓勵我們，而不是放冷箭、講一些負面的話，我們不希望有這種事情。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，關於石斑的部分，最主要是在屏東，養殖面積大概有一千四百多公頃，但是在中國大陸禁止以後，其實包括委員也一起協助我們業者改善養殖的環境，然後我們也對這樣的環境跟中國那邊提交一些相關的改進措施，可是他們都沒有回應我們。雖然他們現在開放了7家可以銷大陸，不過我們臺灣目前總共有四百多家，所以我們也把這四百多家提交過去，希望他們開放更多，而不是只有這7家可以輸往大陸，這是第一個。第二個部分，因為那時候石斑大部分都是銷大陸，國內、美國還是其他國家都不太瞭解，我們也剛好趁這個機會讓我們國內的消費者很喜歡這樣的石斑，特別是在美國用切片的方式，我想我們的外銷成長量都滿高的。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們有試銷到美國，但石斑的成果不好。院長，我跟你說，美國人不太喜歡吃石斑，而且又貴，他們是吃魚片，最好是鯰魚，很大尾的鯰魚。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們的石斑也是用切片的過去。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦！那個頭就占很大，我對石斑是有夠用心的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["陳院長建仁：我知道，你是專家。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以我是要農業部漁業署要鼓勵，當然會把這些加速擴增，我們最近有在……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們也一直在努力。"],["蘇委員清泉：希望漁業署要好好的來幫忙啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：會，這一定會的。"],["蘇委員清泉：不要不幫忙還在那裡修理東、修理西，這不行！院長你要跟我承諾一下。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，其實有兩部分，第一個就是銷大陸的部分，我們要怎麼來改進，這個很重要；第二個就是剛才說的，我們銷國外的部分，在外國的市場，他們大部分都吃魚排、fillet，所以就是我們要有處理，當然你說那個魚頭要怎麼辦？魚頭的銷路是一個問題，但是那個魚片、魚排的部分，其實這個銷路外國也是有接受喔！"],["蘇委員清泉：我們現在遠洋漁撈跟近海漁撈占我們的總漁獲量差不多三成而已。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們的箱網養殖、岸上養殖跟內陸養殖占了70%左右。"],["陳代理部長駿季：大概六成五。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以養殖對我們來講太重要了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：而且高屏尤其是屏東，一定要加強輔導再輔導。"],["陳代理部長駿季：會，我們會加強。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們希望院長跟部長你們要care這一塊，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們一定care，我們全力以赴啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：最近我們萬巒還有內埔那邊的百香果，我最近一直都在處理，我也很高興我們的農糧署也有在幫忙，就是有一個雜誌社還有一個營養師用你們110年的data，然後就發表什麼百香果的農藥殘留是最多的，胡說八道！他是用110年的資料。我要問部長，你們有110年的data，但為何沒有111、112年的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，他們在網路報告的是拿110年到111年的資料，當場我們也是馬上去查過去的資料，因為百香果是屬於連續採收型的，平均的農藥殘留率大概是10%，我也知道百香果在全國的面積差不多是1,939公頃，雖然屏東只占5%，差不多46公頃，可是屏東的百香果非常特殊……"],["蘇委員清泉：現在100公頃以上啦！現在占三成了！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有到三成啦！大概5%到6%……"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，我要跟你報告，我們都是學公衛的人，我們都希望屏東的檳榔可以轉作。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：屏東的檳榔1萬3,000公頃左右，現在都在轉作，有的是改種百香果，農業部會予以補助，給它做網室，網室根本都履歷的，根本就沒有在噴農藥，結果這樣下去，大家都死光光，本來一箱一千多塊，現在只剩四、五百。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，屏東的百香果非常特殊，因為它有做一些網室，就是委員剛才說的。"],["蘇委員清泉：沒錯！沒錯！"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以它的品質比中部的好很多，所以我們一直努力的去做。"],["陳院長建仁：要宣導啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：第二點，我也跟委員報告，在報紙刊出之後，因為那是過去的資料，所以我們馬上去抽檢……"],["蘇委員清泉：我也沒有看到你們有提供他們什麼幫助啊！也沒有發布新聞等等。"],["陳代理部長駿季：那時候沒辦法發布新聞，因為113年那時候我們馬上去抽檢，到昨日為止，屏東總共抽檢21件，全部合格，這個訊息明天就會有新聞稿，因為當時他是用110年的資料，所以我沒辦法馬上說屏東沒問題，所以我們去抽檢，也確定21個樣品裡面完全合格，表示說我們屏東的農民是非常重視。"],["蘇委員清泉：你在這邊講沒有用啦！你要發表一下啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我明天就會發新聞稿，因為我們昨天就把這個資料統計出來了以後，明天就會發新聞稿。"],["陳院長建仁：有數據啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：學者沒用啦！那些農民是血淋淋的啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有啦……"],["蘇委員清泉：我是心臟外科醫師……"],["陳院長建仁：明天要發表的就是他們有用網室栽培。"],["蘇委員清泉：他們是完全幾乎沒有用農藥嘛，對不對？部長，沒有錯吧？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，他們有用一些有機資材，有部分的農藥，但是農藥一定都在合格的範圍之內啦，所以我們檢測是完全OK的。"],["蘇委員清泉：大家都哭哭啼啼的。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我們一起努力來澄清啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：再來，因為寒流啦、吹南風啦，整個枋山、枋寮，還有恆春那邊的荔枝、火龍果都酥花，沒有結果。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：你們在災害認定的時候，我希望部長你們要從寬認定，1年搞1次……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我瞭解，我跟委員報告……"],["蘇委員清泉：都吃土了，你知道嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道。"],["蘇委員清泉：他們都吃土，不是吃飯欸！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，因為我本身也是從事農業研究的，我知道我們恆春那邊，第一個我先說荔枝，荔枝在恆春的那部分，雖然說當時小犬颱風有稍微影響到，不過小犬颱風的認定期大概是3個月，我跟我的同仁研究，不一定要用小犬颱風，它還有很多因素……"],["蘇委員清泉：對。"],["陳代理部長駿季：特別是荔枝的生長會跟它的枝條成熟度、跟它的溫度有關，所以我們會來處理。"],["蘇委員清泉：時間快到了、時間快到了。","我要跟你說的就是，你們認定要放寬一點，不要讓他們血本無歸，這是第一個。第二個就是裡面那個規定，如果幾%、幾%、幾percent那個有不合時宜的，希望調整一下，專家會議改一改，那個都是辦法而已，那個不是法律，那個都是根據這些細則所訂出來的辦法，這樣好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們的天然災害救助辦法是在滾動檢討的。"],["蘇委員清泉：你們那個已經都過時了啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：所以剛剛說的荔枝部分不需要放寬，它就應該沒什麼問題，我們已經找到一些原因了。"],["陳院長建仁：事證啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：我再請王美花部長。"],["主席：請經濟部備詢。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，我們恆春半島那邊我有去做民調，恆春半島的人有76%、77%是同意核三廠延役的，沒那麼嚴重！我在屏東住這麼久了，這個核三廠每一次評比在全世界都是前五名，我沒有記錯的話，三十年來也沒有什麼重大的毛病，這些百姓希望的是他們的醫療、他們的回饋等等能夠正好的保障，一個核三廠1年可以幫你賺三、四百億，你卻要關掉它，你不就是瘋子嗎？昨天美國聯邦希望把所有內陸那些火力石化電廠直接都改成核電廠，改成新的第四代的……"],["王部長美花：昨天那個報導我後來再去看原文，它寫得不精準。"],["蘇委員清泉：不精準？"],["王部長美花：對，它講的是已經沒有在用的既有煤電廠未來可以思考用這個部分。"],["蘇委員清泉：配電設備不用蓋，就直接輸送出去嘛！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，這個很重要。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在COP也認為它是OK的嘛！所以不要……賴清德也有說可以當做備用啊，這表示什麼？"],["陳院長建仁：現在核三若要延役，法律就要……這個你比我清楚。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們有提修法，我們比你們還煩惱。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員清泉的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來登記第4號劉委員建國質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員劉建國書面質詢：","農漁民子女助學金","1.農漁民子女助學金實施已久，旨在幫助農漁民子女就學。但近來接獲不少陳情，私立大學由於今年發放教育補助，根據資源不重複投入原則，使就讀私大的農漁民子女無法再度請領農漁民子女助學金。","2.但這樣等於變相剝奪農漁民子女的權益。所有就讀私大的農漁民子女變得與其他就讀私大的一般家庭處於齊頭式平等的狀態，而就讀公立大學的農漁民子女依舊可以請領助學金。這樣並非實質上的公平。","3.甚至不只農漁民子女，可能本來就讀私大的學生可以請領其他助學金者都變得無法請領。","建議：","請院長要求教育部與農業部及其他相關部會進行協調，私立大學補助直接內化，這樣一來對於學生本身便不會有資源重複投入的問題。相關報告請於一周內提交。","公糧收購","1.最近有一些民意代表，鑒於公糧收購價格久未調整，希望能來提高。","2.當然農民權益不容忽視，但調高公糧收購價格茲事體大，可能會對我國農業外銷、我國農產品市場競爭力下滑、物價指數等等造成不利影響，是否有其他解決之道，能夠兼顧農民權益又不使我國經濟結構造成波動？未來有沒有甚麼相關的對策與方針？相關報告請於一周內提交。","糧食自給率","1.根據農業部統計資料，我國糧食自給率不論是乙熱量計算還是以價格計算，自107年以來，總體呈現逐年下滑趨勢。","2.針對糧食自給率逐年下滑，究竟出現甚麼問題，導致這樣的原因？","3.糧食自給率低的情況下，長期以來不僅不利我國農業發展，若是遇到國際緊急狀況如疫情、其他緊急事件等，將對我國造成嚴重影響。目前是否有相關應對方針？請一周內給予答覆。"],["主席：再接下來我們請登記第5號張委員嘉郡質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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code、藥檢等等,跟屏東科技大學密切一座來一座去。我要跟部長報告,對岸的海關總署"},{"start":284.909,"end":287.13,"text":"現在最近有7家兩職業者通過,我們真的是輔導,非常用心的。"},{"start":307.608,"end":319.568,"text":"現在量也出來了。 現在我們的珍珠班、我們的龍虎班本來一斤、一台斤都差不多一百塊、一百一塊、一百二塊,最近已經升到一百九、兩百。"},{"start":322.079,"end":322.299,"text":"蘇清泉議員"},{"start":347.574,"end":347.634,"text":"蘇清泉議員"},{"start":367.501,"end":367.681,"text":"﹚蘇清泉"},{"start":386.681,"end":387.181,"text":"我們有試銷到美國"},{"start":405.043,"end":410.906,"text":"我對酒吧我是有夠用心的用心的用心,所以我是要在農業部我們的那個月數要高的"},{"start":434.977,"end":449.925,"text":"當然會把這些加速把它擴增,我們最近有在...對,我們也一直在努力,對。希望議會主要好好的來幫忙啦。會,這一定會的。不要不幫忙,再這樣修理,修理,修理,這不行。"},{"start":453.098,"end":466.047,"text":"委員我其實有兩部分,第一就是小台六的部分,我們怎樣來改善這事很重要,第二就是剛才說的,我們其實小國國的部分,你如果看外國市場,他們大部分都吃魚排、馬蜜蕾"},{"start":470.63,"end":470.67,"text":"蘇清泉議員"},{"start":485.812,"end":514.047,"text":"沿洋魚撈跟近海魚撈,占我們的總漁獲量差不多三成而已,差不多三成。我們的鄉網養殖跟岸上養殖跟內陸養殖占了70%左右,所以這個養殖對我們來講太重要,而且高頻尤其是屏東一定要加強輔導跟輔導,我希望院長跟部長你們要care這一塊。好,我們一定care,我們全力以赴啦。"},{"start":515.723,"end":542.021,"text":"最近有一個我們萬巒還有內埔那邊的百香果我最近都在處理我很高興我們的農養署也有在幫忙就是一個雜誌社還有一個營養師用你們110年的data然後就發表"},{"start":543.849,"end":552.696,"text":"什麼百祥國的農藥殘餘是最多的,無所怕到用110年,我要問部長,你有110年的data,啊111、112天都沒有?"},{"start":557.54,"end":565.003,"text":"我發言委員報告,就是說他們網路的報告是提80年至81年的資料。當然我們也是馬上去查記起的資料,因為百香果那是連續採收型的,平均的農藥的殘留率大概是10%,殘留大概10%"},{"start":577.688,"end":604.455,"text":"那我也知道說屏東因為我們百香果裡面齁全國大概面積差不多要一千九百三十九公頃雖然說屏東只佔百分之五齁差不多四十六公頃可是屏東的百香果非常特殊現在一百公頃以上啦對現在佔三成三成啦沒有到三成啦大概百分之五到百分之六我要跟你報告是院長我們額公衛人額邀的人我們都不希望屏東的那個賓郎"},{"start":605.735,"end":624.364,"text":"蘇清泉轉租,屏東的屏東一般三千公斤左右,現在都在轉租,這樣百鄉國農委會、農業部要替他補助讓他做往事。往事根本都屢屢的,根本都在捕農業,你給他補貼的大家都死了,他收一千塊、現在剩四五百。"},{"start":629.986,"end":630.506,"text":"發言委員：蘇清泉發言委員：蘇清泉發言委員"},{"start":658.894,"end":659.074,"text":"﹚蘇清泉﹚"},{"start":682.156,"end":683.737,"text":"他們是完全幾乎沒有用農藥,對不對部長?"},{"start":706.696,"end":720.564,"text":"他們有用一些有機資材,有部分的農藥,但是農藥一定都沒有在合格的範圍之內。所以我們檢測是委員會的。因為寒流啦,灘南風啦,整個邦山、邦寮,還有恆春那邊的荔枝、黃果都所廢,都沒有補給。你現在在災害認定的時候,"},{"start":735.413,"end":761.121,"text":"我希望部長,你們要從寬認定,一年搞一次。 我了解,我給委員報告。 都吃土你知道嗎?我自己都吃土,不是吃飯。 我給委員報告,因為我本身也是從事農業研究的。 我知道說,我們行政院的,第一我先說內資啦。 內資行政院的部分,雖然說它同時對小選台風有稍微影響到,不過小選台風的認定期大概3個月啦。"},{"start":762.101,"end":777.972,"text":"我跟我們同仁研究,不一定要用小選颱風,它還有很多因素,對,特別是荔枝的生產會跟它的枝條的成熟度,跟它的溫度,所以我們會來處理。我們跟你說的就是說,你的認定要比較放寬。"},{"start":782.935,"end":800.883,"text":"不要在那邊學本無歸,第一個。第二個,就是說你們那個規定,如果幾%、幾%、幾%那個有不合時宜的,希望調整一下,專家會議改一改,那個都是辦法而已,那個不是法律,那個都是根據這些細則所定出來的辦法。"},{"start":802.204,"end":817.874,"text":"我們會天然災害救助辦法,我們是在滾動檢討的。所以他剛才說的,內地的保安不需要放寬,他就應該沒什麼問題。我們已經找到一些原因了。市政啦。我再請王美娃部長。請經濟部備詢。部長。謝謝。"},{"start":830.257,"end":855.149,"text":"恆春半島的人報案是七十六、七十七,他們是同意河山長演議的,沒那麼嚴重,我在屏東住這麼久了,這個河山長每一次評比在全世界都是前五名的,我沒有記錯的話,三十年來也沒有什麼重大的毛病,"},{"start":855.987,"end":883.143,"text":"那這些百姓他們希望的是他們的醫療、他們的回饋等等能夠更好的保障。那這個河山長一年我們給你賺了三、四百億,你要給他賺掉嗎?你不笑嗎?美國現在將聯邦給黨所有的內陸的那些活力石化電廠,他們希望直接就改成河電廠。"},{"start":885.676,"end":909.684,"text":"昨天那個報導我後來再去看原文,寫得不精準。對,他講的是說那個已經沒有再用的這個既有的那個煤電廠,未來可以來思考用這個部分。院長這個是很重要,那現在那個COPP也認為它是OK的嘛,所以不要,賴清德嘛"},{"start":911.465,"end":914.907,"text":"謝謝蘇委員清泉的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來登記第4號,劉委員建國以質詢以書面提出。請行政院"}]}},{"id":"149726","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149726","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a29382dae76e8316b976604b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a61d216fa11ae63dd35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"15:22:37 - 15:38:20","影片長度":"00:15:43","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":943,"end_time":"2024-03-12T15:38:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T15:22:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":183,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（15時22分）有請我們陳院長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：邱委員午安，恭喜你當選立委。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝。我想請問陳院長，你知道我是哪裡的立法委員？"],["陳院長建仁：苗栗。"],["邱委員鎮軍：苗栗，謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：你當過苗栗市市長，你對苗栗很有貢獻。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝。我們出身於地方，有一些問題在這邊請教院長。對於桃竹苗大矽谷方案，我們都非常關心，看起來目前這個計畫還是一個雛型，還必須有很多計畫支撐，請教院長，什麼時候才會有具體時程？"],["陳院長建仁：好。這是一個上位計畫，我們已經通過。我們也覺得這樣一個大矽谷計畫對於桃竹苗本身的整合性發展很重要，且涉及的相關部會相當多，所以我們請國發會做整體盤整。是不是給國發會主委簡單講一下？"],["邱委員鎮軍：我順便問一下國發會……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到今年編列了200億預算，對吧？200億預算？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：具體部分是哪些？這200億用在哪裡？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：您是說苗栗的部分是不是？"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，是整個桃竹苗大矽谷計畫。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不只200億，現在整個桃竹苗大方案是一個上位計畫，下面有各部會要執行的一些相關計畫及預算。比如說交通部分，有一些交通納到這裡面來以後，我們要管考它的一些相關進度；比如說有一些綜合規劃已經過了，就要開始做細部規劃，開始實施、開始進行。但有一些是雛形跟想法而已，我們會儘快來啟動……"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒關係，那我請教一下，我們的大矽谷計畫在產業園區的部分要增加52處，是嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是、是、是！你這邊的資料是對的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：占地總共1,200公頃？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，這個是產業園區的部分。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到苗栗產業園區的規劃是145公頃，是吧？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請問新竹跟桃園的比例是多少？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：以目前來講，現在就是說我們園區的部分，不管是科學園區也好，或是產業園區也好，基本上是採取滾動式的部分，要看產業上的需求，第二個是地方政府如果盤點出來，也準備好了，我們就可以把它滾動進來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：目前我們苗栗縣大概預估有900公頃的產業用地，我看到我們的比例總共是1,200公頃，苗栗縣只有145公頃，我在這邊也希望我們的院長能夠在這個部分多加斟酌考量，讓苗栗900公頃土地能夠更有效的來利用。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，我們後續會跟苗栗縣政府比較積極的溝通，看看哪個部分真的準備好了，準備好了之後……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到的是這樣啦，我們苗栗縣目前有3個地方，就是頭份……"],["陳院長建仁：對，頭份……"],["邱委員鎮軍：頭份有用地……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：頭份跟竹南，那個是科學園區。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是因為它是私人土地較多，對不對？可能徵收上會比較繁瑣一點。"],["陳院長建仁：是，困難。"],["邱委員鎮軍：第二個當然就是我們的竹南，竹南這邊也有空地。另外就是後龍……"],["陳院長建仁：後龍，對，3個地方。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然，我希望行政院這邊能夠儘快啦，因為這個計畫對我們苗栗縣真的非常重要，尤其是賴清德準總統在選前就有講過，要把苗栗變成科技大縣，以現在規劃範圍的比例來說，我覺得太低，我希望國發會這邊來協助，希望苗栗能夠規劃更多的土地，讓我們一些產業能進駐，帶動苗栗經濟，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，委員提到的後龍，過去縣政府有報編，想要做成產業園區，當然，中間還是有一些需要溝通的部分，我們是希望儘快，苗栗縣政府如果可以跟當地居民有很好的溝通，我們就可以儘快啟動，看是不是要滾動式檢討這個部分。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，您剛剛講到交通的部分，現在交通的部分您怎麼處理？尤其是第二交流道，還有楊梅到頭份的楊頭段拓寬工程。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，這個都有納進去了。"],["陳院長建仁：都有在大矽谷計畫裡面。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有納入計畫嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：可是我看到的是楊頭的部分已經確定了，那頭份第二交流道的部分呢？有納入在這個計畫裡面嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：頭份的話，我記得好像應該是有的，我可能要check一下。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，他在check的時候，我跟委員報告一下，實際上在桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的過程中，我們很希望地方政府跟中央政府一定要一起來做，譬如說我們以前在竹南科學園區做的很成功嘛，未來無論是後龍也好，或是其他地區也好，地方政府也要有一些自己的看法，然後土地徵收的部分，你講的是最好啦，土地徵收的部分可能是地方政府也要來一起合作，這樣我們就能很快的推動。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝院長。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，跟你回應一下，剛才提到的頭份是有的，是有納進來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：已經加進來了是嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，已經加進來了，沒有錯。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我再請問，我們72線接61線的這2條道路的計畫有併進去嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：有，現在在辦綜合規劃跟環評當中。"],["邱委員鎮軍：還在做規劃？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，我在這邊建議，我不知道院長有沒有發現，全臺灣所有的東西向道路中，只有我們苗栗沒有接到國道，其實兩邊是很近的，我希望這一次也能納入一併考量，大家來做研議好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，因為今天交通部長沒有來，不過所有的整個大矽谷計畫，在我們當時的規劃當中，就是有橫向的、縱向的，變成一個網路，細節的部分也許再請交通部長……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦，因為我看到我們整個計畫，不論是在桃園或新竹，我們苗栗的水、電都是往上送的，我希望院長不要在用水或用電的時候就想到苗栗，但要建設的時候就建設到別的地方去。"],["陳院長建仁：不會！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不會啦，基本上是聯合互相支援啦！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我跟您報告，當時在整個規劃當中，包括賴副總統的想法也是，一定要把苗栗放進來，不然就不會叫做桃竹苗大矽谷，我們一直覺得苗栗在未來是很有發展的潛力，所以把它納進來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為這樣啦，目前我們看到的計畫當然都是集中在竹南、頭份，但是對於苗栗縣整個來講，苗南地區我也希望院長能一併考量進去，苗南的發展也相當重要，因為南邊還有一個銅鑼科學園區，如果那邊也擴編的話，當然也是可以考量，在這邊本席建議，希望我們國發會跟行政院這邊能夠積極的來處理這件事情，好嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，委員您看，我剛才提到互相支援，像鯉魚潭的水也是從南部送到苗栗去，所以互相支援可以讓地方一定夠啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦，不要虧待苗栗，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為苗栗真的是為地方……"],["陳院長建仁：好，絕對不會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：苗栗有5個水庫，其實它限制非常多，發展也非常的困難，我希望我們的院長跟國發會這邊能夠一併來考量。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，我的第二題要請王美花部長。"],["主席：麻煩請經濟部備詢。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。我今天看到新聞有點名，數發部長唐鳳、交通部長王國材、經濟部長王美花及前農業部長陳吉仲被認為是我們執政當局的四大破口，您自己覺得呢？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我想這是捕風捉影啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒有，我問部長啦，好不好？部長，您覺得您是破口嗎？"],["王部長美花：我想對我來說，我是一個非常資深的公務員，任職超過四十幾年了，我每天就是努力把事情做好，對我來說，怎麼樣對臺灣的經濟能做的更有韌性，讓臺灣在全世界越來越重要，這是我一直在思考的問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦，希望部長認真啦，認真一點來執行所有的業務。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然也不要變成我們賴清德總統的絆腳石，可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：她不會啦，她是最好的幫手啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：可是在本席看來，我們看到4月份電價要調漲，部長是覺得這個破口不夠大還是怎麼樣？"],["王部長美花：事實上，一直以來國際燃料成本的大幅上漲確實造成台電的虧損，在過去這一、二年台電已經吸收了非常多的成本，現在主要就是每一年我們當然會優先去爭取政府資金跟補助……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到也知道我們台電目前虧損是94%，虧損已經達94%了，我看到我們這一次的調升是330度以下的民生用電的部分，我有推算過，120度以下用電調漲每個月大概9塊錢，382萬戶，我計算了一下，一年多收4億；121度到330度的用戶一樣調漲5%，全臺有526萬戶，一年多收21.5億，也就是說，這一波調整電價大概能為台電多收25億，是這樣吧？"],["王部長美花：有關電價的調漲公式目前都在電價小組裡面在討論當中……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我算出來的這個數字不是很多，我們為什麼要去做這件事情，我就覺得很奇怪，相對於一些用電的大戶，譬如一些特高壓用電大戶，我們應該要針對這個部分，或者我們以前，像台電去年花了900億購買綠電，這個部分如果在電價這邊節省一點是不是更有效果？"],["王部長美花：綠電的部分事實上現在已經逐漸，綠電原來讓台電躉購的部分，目前其實都會讓綠電直接賣給用戶，因為臺灣的大用戶也需要綠電，所以這個趨勢是我們把綠電產業做起來，把綠電的環境做起來，但是之後就會慢慢直接賣給企業，不用由台電來收購、躉購，這是綠電發展過程中一定要的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個部分我當然也瞭解，所以本席還是希望並建議行政院、經濟部這邊能多體恤一下民眾，一般民眾、臺灣民眾，因為這一波調漲電價讓本席覺得有一點劫貧濟富的感覺。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，這個我來回答一下，可以嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。"],["陳院長建仁：基本上這一次的電價調整，當然要看電價審議委員會的審議結果，但是我們也會給它提供一些意見，這個意見就是我們做很精緻的調整，譬如說這個產業在發達的過程當中，那我們可能就會加的比較多一點，如果這個產業目前還在蕭條的情況下，就會加的少一點；那民間的用電，也是會按照它的用電量來做很精細的調整。以往在2022年、2023年我們調整8%、11%的時候，也都是用這樣很精緻的調整，所以當時確實對物價的影響會下降，不會造成通膨……"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在的重點不是在於漲不漲電價這個事情，其實我們更關心的是通膨的問題，你知道漲一度電會增加多少通膨嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們才會盡量的讓電價的調整不要像國外那樣，國外都是一次就漲足，然後政府再補貼那個漲的幅度……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個其實就是以前，我覺得是民進黨執政以來一開始就開始凍漲，對不對？電費就已經凍漲了，所以一直撐到現在才會有這樣的一個結果。為什麼以前不調，為什麼這次選舉完要調，你可以做一個解釋嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好。我跟委員報告一下，為什麼現在後面這段時間才調，就是俄烏戰爭以後，全球燃料的價錢大量的增加，燃料價格大量增加才造成了台電3,800億的虧損，如果再加上今年有1,800億的話，這都是燃料的費用喔，如果這樣可以到達五千多億。所以實際上並不是說後面才來調，後面調的原因就是天有不測風雲，剛好這一段期間燃料費用增加，我們才會在這一段期間做大幅度的調整。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我們物價穩定小組有準備了嗎？有沒有因應這件事情做好準備？"],["陳院長建仁：對，有關物價這部分，我們有考慮電價跟物價可能的連動情況，好讓它能夠不要影響CPI的上升。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你具體的作法，現在出來了沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：現在還是要讓審議委員會來討論。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你儘快來準備，好不好？然後好的時候給本席資料。"],["陳院長建仁：不過委員您關心的不要引起通膨的問題，然後一定要幫助比較弱勢的民眾，這些建議我們都會請審議委員會來考慮。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我這樣講啦，你把資料做好，然後再給我，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不要像這次蘇丹紅的事情一樣，出了事情再來解決，我想這是非常不負責任的。當然啦，我們也懷疑其實這次漲電價，我們陳院長算是看守內閣，是不是在520之前我們要幫新政府排除路障，然後背鍋、下臺，是不是有這個政治的考量？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有啦，我們現在最主要的任務就是要讓現在的內閣跟以後的內閣無縫接軌，一起來做好福國利民的工作。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員鎮軍的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢，邱委員所索取的資料，麻煩請行政部門逕付邱委員辦公室。","接下來我們請登記第3位蘇委員清泉質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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規劃,還有環評當中。那另外我在這邊建議,我不知道院長有沒有發現,我們全台灣所有的東西像道路,只有我們苗栗沒有接到國道,那其實兩邊是很近的,那我希望這一次能夠列入一併的考量,大家來做研議好不好?因為今天我們交通"},{"start":388.729,"end":391.071,"text":"我看到我們整個計畫不論是在桃園或者是新竹"},{"start":411.91,"end":413.271,"text":"我跟您報告就是說當時在整個規劃當中包括"},{"start":433.655,"end":434.236,"text":"因為南邊我們還有一個這個銅鑼科學園區"},{"start":461.237,"end":466.62,"text":"我剛才提到互相支援,像鯉魚潭的水也是從南部送到苗栗去,所以互相的有支援可以讓地方一定夠。"},{"start":482.837,"end":505.103,"text":"不要虧待苗栗啦好不好,因為苗栗真的是為地方,苗栗有5個水庫,其實他限制非常多,發展也非常的困難。那我希望我們的院長還有我們的國會這邊能夠一併的來考量。謝謝。那另外我們第二題,我們請我們的王美花部長。麻煩請經濟部備席。"},{"start":511.743,"end":525.372,"text":"部長好,我今天看到新聞有點名,我們速發部的部長唐鳳,交通部我們的王國才,經濟部長王美花,以及前農業部長陳吉仲。"},{"start":528.069,"end":529.05,"text":"我每天就是努力把事情做好。"},{"start":548.26,"end":577.12,"text":"那我想對我來說對台灣怎麼樣台灣的經濟做得更有韌性讓台灣在全世界越來越重要這個是我一直在思考的問題希望部長認真認真一點來執行所有的這個業務那當然不要變成我們賴清德總統的這個絆腳石可以嗎他不會啦他是最好的幫手啦可是在我本席看來我們看到4月份電價要調漲"},{"start":578.896,"end":582.653,"text":"那我覺得部長是覺得這個破口不夠大還是怎麼樣?"},{"start":583.641,"end":606.726,"text":"事實上一直以來這個國際的燃料成本的大幅上漲確實是造成台電的虧損那事實上在過去這一兩年台電已經吸收了非常多的一個成本現在主要就是說這樣的一個每一年我們當然優先都爭取政府的這個資金跟補助我看到了我也知道我們台電現在目前虧損是94%了"},{"start":610.527,"end":618.19,"text":"我看到我們這一次調升這個是330度以下的民生用電部分那我有推算過120度以下用電調漲那每個月大概是9塊錢那382萬戶我換算下來一年多收了4億那121度到330度"},{"start":635.196,"end":651.391,"text":"議員"},{"start":651.793,"end":677.671,"text":"所有的這個電價怎麼調漲的公式目前都在電價小組裡面工作室還在討論當中因為我算到這個數字不是很多我們為什麼要去做這件事情我就覺得很奇怪那相對於一些用電的大戶比如說一些我們高壓那個特高壓用電的一些大戶這些我們應該要針對這個部分或者我們以前"},{"start":679.536,"end":682.659,"text":"臺電我們去年花了900億來購買綠電,這個部分你如果電價這邊來節省一點是不是更有效果?"},{"start":689.377,"end":695.641,"text":"綠電的部分事實上現在已經逐漸的那個綠電原來賺購讓台電來賺購的部分目前其實已經都會讓他綠電直接賣給這個用戶因為臺灣的這個大用戶也需要綠電所以這個趨勢呢我們把綠電的產業做起來綠電的環境做起來但是之後就會慢慢去直接賣給這個企業不用由台電來收購來賺購那所以這個是綠電發展過程當一定要的"},{"start":718.763,"end":719.984,"text":"基本上我們這一次的電價調整當然要看電價審議委員會來做"},{"start":747.79,"end":759.684,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":759.961,"end":786.802,"text":"目前還在蕭條的情況下就會加的少一點那民間的用電也是按照他的用電量會來做很精細的調整那以往在2022年2023年的時候我們調整8%11%的時候也都是用這樣很精緻的調整所以當時呢確實是物價的影響會下降啦我們現在的重點不是在於漲不漲電價這個事情其實我們更關心的是通膨的問題"},{"start":787.823,"end":808.56,"text":"你知道漲一度電會增加多少通貨嗎?所以我們才會盡量的讓這個電價的調整不要像國外,國外都是一次就漲足,然後政府再補貼那個漲足的不足。其實這是以前我覺得是民進黨執政以來一開始就開始動漲了,對不對?"},{"start":811.476,"end":813.757,"text":"為什麼現在後面這段時間才調,就是俄烏戰爭以後全球的染料價錢大量的增加,這個大量增加才造成台電3800億的"},{"start":835.128,"end":853.217,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":853.297,"end":853.457,"text":"現在還是要讓審議委員會來討論"},{"start":874.473,"end":902.106,"text":"你盡快來準備好不好,然後好的時候給本席資料。不過委員您關心的這個不要引起通膨的問題,然後呢一定要來幫助這個比較弱勢的這一些,我們都會請這個審議委員會來考慮啦。那我這樣講啦齁,你把資料做好,然後再給我好不好。是。不要像這次蘇丹紅的事情一樣,出了事情再來解決啊,我想這個是非常不負責任的齁。"},{"start":903.595,"end":924.12,"text":"當然我們也有懷疑,其實這是漲電價,當然我們陳院長算是看守內閣,那是不是在520之前我們要幫新政府排除路障,然後背鍋,然後下台,是不是有這個政治的考量?沒有。"},{"start":934.564,"end":943.351,"text":"謝謝邱委員鄭軍的質詢也謝謝陳院長的備詢麻煩請行政部門邱委員所所取的資料進赴邱委員辦公室接下來我們請登記第三位"}]}},{"id":"149725","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149725","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a29380261a02fc459c2c404b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a61e55ec2f4bd2b2985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"14:46:31 - 15:11:40","影片長度":"00:25:09","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":1509,"end_time":"2024-03-12T15:11:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T14:46:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":113,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（14時46分）有請陳院長、邱部長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長及國防部備詢，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：陳委員午安，恭喜你當選立法委員。"],["陳委員永康：首先，我感謝陳院長在本席就職之際贈送為民喉舌墨寶乙幀，現在掛在辦公室。"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員永康：我回想八年前我們在外交部參加替教廷駐華代辦榮升土耳其大使以及伊斯坦堡總主教的贈勳會場跟您結緣，這八年來，我佩服您在屬靈領域的卓著貢獻，也佩服您在心智上的堅定信仰，特別在這邊先表達敬意。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["陳委員永康：本席軍旅生涯四十餘年，我也一直在懷抱追求和平的理念，奉信以國家安全、保衛人民、力行國家安全做為終極目標而努力，也看到院長近期長期備詢的辛勞，我覺得在質詢過程中間您可以放鬆一些，我會提出一些建言跟討論，請您做參考。"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝，感恩。"],["陳委員永康：因為本席目前專注於國防外交事務的監督審查，就議案權責與性質的覺知，融合國防外交做為國家安全的信念，我們希望把這個信念與價值觀用一個適宜的方法來討論並付諸實踐。","在今年2月14日金廈水道發生三無漁船事件，因為海巡署的船艇在執法過程、追逐過程以及漁船的迴避過程，原來是企圖攔截臨檢登船，但是因為它做迴避，因此產生擦撞而翻船，最後不幸發生犧牲兩位漁民的結果。這個過程目前都在細部調查，我們不做預測，也不做論述，但是各位現在所看到的這個圖表，這是我們花了很多精神把整個過程中間所有引述的法案以及它的背景資料做出一個流程。事實上，我們用現在的科技已經幫它整合成一個資料庫，所以希望未來的每一個單位並不只是引述81年7月31日所公布的兩岸條例第二十九條、第三十二條，實際上，在這個裡面我們總共列選了14項，並不包括1982年聯合國海洋法公約裡面，所謂從3海里提升到12海里的臨海基線，以及每一個國家的臨海權這個範圍，但是基於這個流程，中間有過去動員戡亂法的這個宗旨，也有戰地政務的取消，也有人民條例的增設、修正，所以它實際上是一環扣一環。過去我們一般的政府機制，在回答問題的時候都是針對單獨一項引述某一個條例，我們現在做出這個流程，未來結合資料庫，所有的法案就掛在下面，那麼在跨部會協調甚至解釋的時候，可以做一個更清楚的論述，就不至於產生部分的疏漏或者是不周延的地方，而被引述成我們法律上有瑕疵，這一點值得共同努力。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["陳委員永康：尤其是這個，大家看到左側下方，依據國家安全法施行細則第二十五條的規定，所謂的海岸管制區是由國防部會同內政部根據海防實務需要，就臺灣地區海岸之海水低潮線以迄高潮線起算五百公尺以內，以及近岸沙洲來劃定之，但是這個文字實際上是非常地複雜，那麼我們的海圖所有的校正是由海軍的大氣海洋局來執行，做好了以後，這些圖由過去的聯勤現在軍備局的401廠來印製，但是整體的運用，國內所有不同的機制，商船、漁船的運用是由內政部來管制。目前除了紙本的海圖以外，已經有了電子海圖，分散不同，但是這個校準、精準度要有一個單位來統一協商，因此這一次產生這個漁船擦撞事件所衍生出來的法條問題、法源問題，以及運用不同的圖像、不同的電子檔的部分，我們並沒有一個完整的共同圖像來顯示整個事件發生的經過，因此由現在的法條上面產生的一個概念，我們希望提供行政院以下不同部會橫向協調參考的一個依據。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["陳委員永康：各個部會可以在這個法條的方框裡面去延伸它更深入的連結，甚至哪些有修正，哪些要更新，因為回溯緣起，最早我們是取消動員戡亂，外島很多的法條取消了，一切回歸到國防部在外島的禁限制水域，可是這個禁限制水域又限制在108年的離島建設條例，它是89年4月5日生效的，依據條例第十八條，金馬地區試行通航，不受兩岸條例等法令之限制，也就是在解讀上面可能產生的一些前後不一致，我們是否要在這個上面做修正，以讓執法單位有所準、有所依據？就是在我們的領土主權以及依法執法上面，我相信第一線的部隊，不管是國軍或是海巡單位，它是貫徹命令、保障、維護我們國家的權益，但是在法源的依據上面，不應該產生解釋或者是認知上有不同的解讀跟落差，這一點我特別提出來，請院長來協助指導。","過去我跟邱部長同事多年，現在國軍也在精進，在產生共同圖像。這一次金廈海事事件，共同圖像的功能還沒有產生它的效益，是不是請邱部長在這個上面提出您的看法跟回答？"],["邱部長國正：是，我跟委員報告，共同圖像是我們軍中很注重的，因為我們共同圖像的運用就包含了陸海空三軍，同樣的狀況在這種共同圖像上看到的話是同樣的一個地點，不會有這種錯淆，現在要把各部會融在一道，這是一個很好的作法，因為畢竟我們國家的安全不光是國防部單獨的責任，我也不把這責任推給其他人，但最起碼各部會之間相互協調合作，共同來維護我們國家安全，這需要有一個共通的點，而這個點當中也包含了共同圖像，也是一個很重要的東西。我們會按照這個狀況跟各部會建議，不管是國安會或者院裡面，我會建議召開一個必要的協調會，怎麼樣把我們國軍目前有的共同圖像的作法，既能夠保密，又能夠運用很廣泛，這個我覺得是將來要很努力的一個方向，當然我們很樂見也期望可以達到國家安全大家共同維護的這個境地。"],["陳院長建仁：也要謝謝委員，真的很認真，我學習了，我學了很多，真的很感動。"],["陳委員永康：也特別感謝邱部長在這上面的大力支持，因為我瞭解我們目前的政府並沒有一個完整的國家安全戰略，雖然有安全的思維，但是沒有一個法定提報的國家安全戰略；美國在國家安全戰略上，每任總統就職都會提出；日本在2013年也提出了它的國家安全戰略，就是法制化。","我特別要在這邊向各位解釋一下，這個發展的流程是經過怎麼樣的路徑、怎麼樣來收斂，首先，我們是要看全球環境影響力跟趨勢，它包括了區域的威脅、友盟的變質、國際組織、國際法律、資訊安全、氣候變遷、能源短缺、傳染病災難、國際經濟趨勢以及大規模毀滅性武器，最後嚴重影響價值觀，這是國際影響的。那麼國內的影響力及趨勢包括了經濟的情況、社會的需求、我們官僚體系的結構、政黨的形態、資訊的安全、能源的需求、媒體輿論、宗教文化、人口結構、環境保護、國會的結構，這兩個匯集起來統統影響我們國家安全戰略的制定。但是因為沒有國家安全戰略的制定，所以行政院在橫向協商，有關執法單位、有關國防單位，甚至海圖、甚至臨港、甚至是航圖，這個都是各司其職。但是就像剛才邱部長講的，並沒有能夠融合變成統一，就說大家有一個共同基準的概念，在一個相同的標準觀念下來執行，協商會比較方便。因此國家安全綜合評估的目標，包括兩岸、包括外交政策、包括國防政策，在這個部分行政院能夠協調的空間比較小，但是經濟政策、能源政策、資安政策、人口政策等等，整個7項融合起來會形塑國家安全戰略，它的目的是促進繁榮、確保民主、強化安全。因此現階段在下任政府接替之前，本席期許院長能夠朝這邊共同努力，先朝這個方向推動。","我把國家安全戰略的施行方法在這邊向大家做說明跟報告，我們現在因為沒有國家安全戰略，所以在現況上產生了什麼呢？就是跨部會在資源分配不均、協商比較困難、策略執行不太容易、法制不夠周全、政策不容易同步，同時難以持續，因為換官員、換幕僚，它沒有一個上級政策的指導，很多東西就做了調整。我們國家安全戰略的預期目標就是確保國家安全與兩岸的和平穩定。我們如果制定國家安全戰略，我們的行動重心在政治面是趨利避害，在和平對等的前提下，堅守民主自由的體制；在經濟上，國際上也是互利互補，在公平正義的條件下，促進經貿與投資的成長；在軍事上要強軍慎戰，也是備戰、能戰、止戰，在國家安全的前提下，控管風險解決爭端；在社會上，我們要凝聚共識，在國防民生合一的前提下，強固基礎建設堅韌民心。","在執行的手段上面，第一個，是可承擔的前提下，也就是在我們政府的負荷下，反映民眾的意志與決心，跨部會協調，這裡面還包括國際友邦及軍事友好同盟的關係，打造我們國家和平發展的環境。在可適用的前提下，評析當前與過去決策的落差，確認與國家安全有關的法源、組織與資源不足的地方，以及相關的限制因素。我們目前有國家安全法，裡面的細則都有對國內的要求，但是對於我們自己部會之間協調合作分攤的責任，沒有明確的制定。最後，在可信賴前提下，要設定預期的目標，以及可支助的能力，包括量能、權責，確保所需要的資源，並可有效建立全面性協調與可信條件。我們希望在下一任的政府接替以後，能夠推動制定國家安全戰略。現階段透過院長的指導，在橫向協調上給予各部會支援，也就是說責任的分攤跟有限的資源分配，以及反應的時間都是有極限的。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["陳委員永康：因此，如果沒有一個完整的概念，在協調過程中，國際情勢、國內情勢、兩岸情勢產生了變化，有的時候我們的決策是跟不上。所以這一點是需要大家共同的努力。","最後，我顯示一個共同圖像。這張圖各位可以看到，包含東北亞朝鮮半島、東海、日本防空識別區、臺海防空識別區，還有中國大陸在2013年11月23日發布的東海防空識別區。因為中國大陸是國際民航組織的成員，所以它把國際防空識別區在國際的航圖上已經標註上去了，我們也希望國防部未來把東海防空識別區也能夠標註上去，因為我們防空識別區跟東海防空識別區重疊的部分就是中共最好運用的所謂「灰色地帶」，這個地方它對國際講我們是重疊區，所以這個區塊它的用兵跟它的兵力更容易消耗我們有形跟無形的戰力。但在法理上來講，防空識別區跟飛航情報區在國際航圖上是相同的，我們的防空識別區是在1954年由美國協防司令部協助我們規劃，但是到96飛彈危機以後共機出海，在國際民航圖上的顯示，就是海峽中線變成飛航情報區的邊線，因此很多的定義要在這個法條裡面略為說明。前一陣子，大家國內都關心503航線……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["陳委員永康：其實503是個航路，它是有一定的寬度，飛機南下北上，它有一定的距離，保持安全橫距上下2,000到4,000呎的間隔，所以它向左調向右調，如果是在航路範圍之內，我們尊重ICAO的要求，但是我們在監偵全程掌握情勢上仍然是不能夠放鬆。","在這個圖上就顯示，比方講在與那國島、西表島、石垣島，以及美軍最近在巴丹島，還有菲律賓西南，菲律賓最近因為南海問題跟中共在引起爭端的就是中沙群島，我們在內政部的海圖，領海基線把它標註上去的，包括了黃岩島，我們又稱做民主礁，最近並沒有看到我們政府在這上面表達我們的政策跟立場，尤其是在南邊的仁愛礁，現在中共跟菲律賓的衝突算是蠻大的，但是中國大陸現在就是運用灰色區塊，它用它的海上民兵以及海上警察，其實他們的海警就是Coast Guard，問題是他們的海警並不是在一般的政府政策下，屬於非軍事單位，它是直屬中央軍委會，所以他們利用灰色區塊消耗鄰近國家有限的力量，這個是值得我們注意的。","再下一步，各位看到這個圖塊，所有的國家安全是先由社會的堅韌、民心的安定、經濟的繁榮、軍事的堅強，才能夠達成海峽的和平，核心問題就是國家安全戰略，但是共同圖像是一個支持國家安全戰略的作業平臺，所以剛才向兩位提出來的，不只是國軍、不只是海巡，甚至跨部會在國防部協助支持下，可能構建一個基礎的共同平臺，大家對事物、對情勢的判斷有一個基本圖像，最後才會把政治、外交、經濟、軍事能源、社會、醫療、產業鏈納入我們國家安全的戰略體系，這對任何一個政府、任何一個政黨執政都是一個必須的條件。這邊請院長給我們一些回應，您未來如何在這方面支持跨部會的努力？"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝委員很完整而且很宏觀、很嚴密的說明國家安全體系，我學習到很多。實際上我也完全同意一個國家的安定，除了軍事的、外交的、兩岸的以外，還要有社會的、經濟的，這個我完全同意。目前在國家安全的體制上是由國安會在做通盤的整合，但是行政院這邊也會認真參考委員所提的意見，而且我們也會請同仁在國家安全體系的相關會議上，把這麼好的、很宏觀而且很細緻的建議在會議上討論。站在行政院的立場，在還沒有這樣討論之前，我們也會讓各個部會瞭解在國家安全上所扮演的角色，當然這裡面最重要的就是我們國防部，我請部長簡單的說明一下，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：報告委員，委員剛才講得很精闢，我在這邊聽了以後歸納成兩個重點，第一個，沒有錯，按照我們的大戰略延續下來的話，一定要有國家戰略才有軍事戰略，這是下面的一環，而軍事戰略又分成略、術、鬥、技、具、作戰區等等，我想我們講的軍事術語，一般人很難瞭解，但我簡單的講，大學裡有一句話「物有本末，事有終始，知所先後，則近道矣」，要有大戰略，國家戰略是大的、是主，它也是先，要先有了以後，後續再延伸出來，所以我們目前好像聽起來還沒有一個頭，事實上我們國家在國防政策或國家安全方面都有一個很清楚的敘述，就為了要防衛國家安全。","在軍事方面的話，我跟委員報告，我也相信略、術、鬥、技、具的概念，戰略、戰鬥、戰技、戰具等等，由上向下是指導，要有戰略才會有戰術，要有戰術才會有戰鬥，由下往上是支持，假如沒有一個好的戰具，戰技則沒辦法發揮，所以這個關係也很清楚，概念有了以後，跟各部會之間的協調，我們一定會針對我們該做哪一部分，各部應該要強調、強化哪一方面，我想這樣可以把目標定得很明確，各部會作業起來也很明快，這是第一個。","第二個，剛剛委員講了很多有關共同圖像，尤其東海防空識別區，沒有錯，它都有一個來龍，才會有這個去脈的。目前我們國軍在每個圖上面，東海識別區、防空識別區是有畫出來，因為畫出來我們才發覺它跟日本、跟韓國會有一些重疊，甚至於就被貼到了，以至於造成東北亞跟東海這個地方，甚至於西太平洋方面，會有很多扞格，就是這個原因。這要透過一個國際管道跟我們平常各部會的努力，大家共同的圖像有了、認知有了、意念一致了，國家以後作業相互要合作的項目等等就會很快地明確了，在此跟委員說明。"],["陳委員永康：最近美國蘭德公司2024發布的威脅評估裡面，特別強調了一個共同圖像（COP，Common Operational Picture），今天早晨本黨陳玉珍委員在問政時提到金廈水道的時候，也講到要有一個清晰的描記跟法條的引述，我想經由院長剛才的陳述以及邱部長的解釋，我們今後在跨部會的協商、橫向協調上，一定可以做得更為精進，感謝今天兩位給我的回應，我想我們共同努力，因為國家安全是需要整合全國的民心，在有限的資源、有限的時間反應下，我們要做出適當的決策，時間有限、資源有限，大家共同努力，也感謝兩位的回答，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員永康的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","報告院會，下面一位是第5號楊曜委員，他改以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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art":73.234,"end":73.274,"text":"議員：陳永康"},{"start":97.932,"end":122.121,"text":"質詢過程中間您可以放鬆一些。我會提出一些建言跟討論。請您做參考。因為本席的目前專注於國防外交事務的監督審查就議案全責他與性質的覺知融合國防外交作為國家安全的信念。我們希望把這個信念"},{"start":123.916,"end":126.683,"text":"與價值觀用一個示儀的方法來討論付諸實踐。那麼在"},{"start":130.424,"end":154.376,"text":"今年的2月14日的荊下水道發生三無漁船,因為海巡署的這個船艇在執法過程、追逐過程以及漁船的迴避過程,原來是企圖攔截、領檢、登船,但是因為他做迴避,因此產生擦撞、翻船,最後產生兩位不幸犧牲漁民的這個結果。"},{"start":156.143,"end":176.31,"text":"這個過程目前都在西部調查,我們不做這個預測也不做論述,但是各位你現在所看到的這個圖表就是我們花了很多的精神把這個整個的過程中間所有引述的法案以及它的背景資料"},{"start":177.398,"end":177.458,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":199.388,"end":216.716,"text":"實際上在這個裡面我們總共列選了14項,並不包括1982年聯合國海洋法公約裡面所謂從3海里提升到12海里的領海基線以及每一個國家的領海權它的這個範圍。"},{"start":218.584,"end":234.136,"text":"但是基於這個流程中間有過去動員勘亂法的這個終止那麼也有戰地政務的取消也有人民條例的增設修正所以它實際上是一環扣一環"},{"start":234.957,"end":235.017,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":261.681,"end":261.701,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":278.361,"end":306.96,"text":"一、據《國家安全法》實例第25條所謂的海岸管制區是由國防部會同內政部根據海防實務的需要就台灣地區海岸的海水低潮線以其高潮線算起500公尺以內以及近岸沙洲來劃定之但是這個文字實際上是非常的複雜那麼我們的海圖所有的校正是由海軍的大氣海洋局來執行"},{"start":307.981,"end":308.221,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":330.609,"end":330.749,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":348.729,"end":348.769,"text":"﹚陳永康"},{"start":365.674,"end":365.814,"text":"﹚陳永康"},{"start":387.97,"end":388.21,"text":"主席"},{"start":402.714,"end":402.974,"text":"主席"},{"start":429.48,"end":429.52,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":450.462,"end":450.782,"text":"所跟委員報告"},{"start":481.323,"end":506.296,"text":"他是共同圖像是我們軍中很注重的因為這個我們共同圖像運用啊就包含了陸海空三軍就同樣的狀況在這種共同圖像上看到的話是同樣的一個地點的不過有這種錯遙那現在要把這個各部位來融在一道這是一個很好的一個做法因為畢竟我們這個國家安全啊不光是國防部單獨的責任"},{"start":507.496,"end":522.884,"text":"我也不把這個時間推給其他人,但最起碼各部會之間相互協調合作,共同來維護我們國家安全,這需要一個共通的點,而這個點也就當中也包含了共同圖像,也是一個很重要的東西。"},{"start":523.504,"end":551.322,"text":"我們會按照這個狀況會跟各部會我們會建議不管是國安會或者院裡面我會建議要召開一個必要的協調會怎麼樣把我們國軍目前有的共同圖像的做法既然能夠保密又能夠運用很廣泛這個我覺得是將來很努力的要努力的一個方向但我們很樂見也期望可以達到國家安全大家共同維護的這個境地"},{"start":553.099,"end":571.115,"text":"謝謝委員,真的很認真,我學習了,學了很多,真的很感動。也特別感謝邱部長在這上面的大力支持,因為我了解我們現在目前的政府並沒有一個完整的國家安全戰略,雖然"},{"start":573.097,"end":574.878,"text":"日本在2013年也提出了他的國家安全戰略,就是法治化。"},{"start":593.429,"end":618.06,"text":"我特別在這邊向各位解釋一下這個發展的流程是經過怎麼樣的路徑怎麼樣來收斂首先我們是要看全球環境影響力跟趨勢它包括了區域的威脅有盟的變質國際組織國際法律資訊安全氣候變遷能源短缺"},{"start":619.54,"end":621.282,"text":"國內影響勢力趨勢包括經濟情況"},{"start":637.196,"end":657.17,"text":"社會的需求、我們官僚體系的結構、政黨的形態、資訊的安全、能源的需求、媒體、輿論、宗教文化、人口結構、環境保護、國會的結構這兩個匯集起來通通影響我們國家安全戰略的制定。"},{"start":658.09,"end":687.259,"text":"但是因為沒有國家安全戰略的制定所以行政院在橫向協商有關執法單位有關國防單位甚至海圖甚至領港甚至是航圖那這個都是各司其職但是呢就像剛才邱部長講的並沒有能夠融合變成統一就是說大家有一個共同基準的概念在一個相同的"},{"start":688.956,"end":689.176,"text":"﹚陳永康"},{"start":705.993,"end":726.944,"text":"但是經濟政策、能源政策、治安政策、人口政策,它整個這個氣象融合起來會形塑國家安全戰略。它的目的是促進繁榮、確保民主、強化安全。因此在現階段在下任府接替之前,"},{"start":727.924,"end":754.502,"text":"那麼本席期許院長能夠朝這邊共同努力先朝這個方向推動那麼我把國家安全戰略它的一個施行方法在這邊向大家做一個說明跟報告我們現在因為沒有國家安全戰略所以在現況上產生了什麼呢就是跨部會在資源分配不均協商比較困難"},{"start":756.286,"end":780.782,"text":"策略執行不太容易,法制不夠周全,政策不容易同步,同時難以持續,因為換官員換幕僚,他沒有一個上級政策的指導,很多東西就做了調整。我們預期的目標,國家安全戰略的目標,就是確保國家安全與兩岸的和平穩定。"},{"start":782.315,"end":802.862,"text":"那麼我們如果制定國家安全戰略我們的行動重心在政治面是趨利避害在和平對等的前提下堅守民主自由的體制在經濟上是國際上也是互利互補在公平正義的條件下促進經貿與投資的成長在軍事上要強軍勝戰"},{"start":808.496,"end":808.616,"text":"﹚陳永康"},{"start":826.792,"end":849.108,"text":"那麼在這個執行的這個手段上面第一個是可承擔的前提下也就是說我們政府的複合下反映民眾的意志與決心跨部會協調這裡面還包括國際友邦及軍事這個友好同盟的關係打造我們國家和平發展的環境"},{"start":850.472,"end":878.541,"text":"那麼在可適用的前提下平息當前與過去決策的落差確認與國家安全有關的法案組織與資源不足的地方以及相關的限制因素我們目前有國家安全法裡面的細則都有對國內的要求但是對於我們自己部會之間協調合作分攤的責任沒有明確的制定"},{"start":879.401,"end":895.548,"text":"所以最後是在可信在前提下要設定預期的目標以及可資助的能力包括量能這個權責確保所需要的資源並可有效建立全面性協調與這個可信的條件。"},{"start":899.449,"end":925.287,"text":"那麼我們希望在下一任的政府接替以後能夠推動制定國家安全戰略那麼現階段透過院長的指導在橫向協調上給予各部會的資源也就是說責任的分攤跟有限的資源分配以及反映的時間它都是有極限的因此如果沒有一個完整的概念在協調過程中"},{"start":927.468,"end":947.162,"text":"國際情勢、國內情勢、兩岸情勢,它產生的變化有的時候我們的決策是跟不上,所以這一點是需要大家共同的努力。那麼最後面我顯示一個共同圖像,這張圖各位可以看到包含東北亞、朝鮮半島、東海。"},{"start":949.212,"end":976.529,"text":"日本防空識別區、台海防空識別區還有中國大陸在2013年11月23日他發布的東海防空識別區因為中國大陸是國際民航組織的成員所以他把這個國際防空識別區在國際的航圖上已經標註上去了那麼我們也希望國防部未來把這個東海防空識別區也能夠標註上去"},{"start":978.166,"end":978.226,"text":"﹚陳永康"},{"start":996.032,"end":996.112,"text":"﹚陳永康"},{"start":1026.613,"end":1043.528,"text":"因此很多的定義要在這個法條裡面做略為說明。我們前一陣子大家國內都關心503航線。其實503是個航路,它是有一定的寬度,飛機南下北上它有一定的距離。"},{"start":1044.189,"end":1044.97,"text":"在這個圖上就顯示比方講在與那國島"},{"start":1070.503,"end":1071.023,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":1095.117,"end":1095.257,"text":"﹚陳永康"},{"start":1116.485,"end":1143.527,"text":"他用他的海上民兵以及他的所謂海上警察其實他的海警就是coast guard問題是他的海警並不是在一般的政策像政府像屬於非軍事單位他是屬於中央軍委會所以他利用灰色區塊消耗鄰近國家的有限的這個力量那這個是值得我們要注意的"},{"start":1144.688,"end":1158.52,"text":"由於這個圖塊在下一步各位看到我們的所有的國家安全是先由社會的堅韌、民心的安定、經濟的繁榮"},{"start":1159.761,"end":1160.021,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":1179.633,"end":1179.713,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":1204.48,"end":1204.76,"text":"謝謝委員,這個很完整而且很宏觀。"},{"start":1228.622,"end":1252.848,"text":"嚴密的這樣的一個說明國家這個安全體系我覺得學習很多那從這裡我也完全同意實際上一個國家的安定除了軍事的外交的兩岸的以外還要有社會的經濟的這個我完全同意那目前在國家安全的這個體制上是由國安會在做通盤的這個整合"},{"start":1253.328,"end":1278.781,"text":"但是行政院這邊也會來認真的參考委員所提的這些意見而且我們也會請同仁在國家安全體系的這個相關會議上把這麼好的很這個宏觀而且很細緻的這個建議在這個會議上討論那站在行政院的立場在還沒有這樣討論之前我們也會讓各個部會"},{"start":1279.241,"end":1279.661,"text":"請部長簡單的說明一下。"},{"start":1291.69,"end":1316.94,"text":"報告委員,剛才那個委員講得很精闢,事實上我在這邊聽了以後歸納成兩個重點。第一個沒有錯,我們按照我們的大戰略延續下來講的話,一定要有國家戰略,才有軍事戰略,這下面的一環。而軍事戰略又分成一個略速鬥技具,作戰區等等。我跟你講我們講的軍事術語一般人很難去了解,但我簡單的講,"},{"start":1318.16,"end":1332.296,"text":"我們大學裡有一句話,物有本末,事有終始,之所先後則盡道矣。 有大戰略,國家戰略是大的,是主,然後它是先,要先有了以後,後續延伸出來。"},{"start":1333.157,"end":1359.077,"text":"所以我們現在目前聽來好像還沒有一個頭出來事實上我們國家在國防政策或國家安全方面都很清楚的敘述就為了要防衛國家安全那在軍事方面的話我跟委員報告我也相信講說我們略出鬥技具的概念戰略、戰鬥、戰技、戰具等等它由上向下是一個指導的"},{"start":1359.938,"end":1388.835,"text":"要有這個戰略才會有戰術,要有戰術才會有戰鬥,但由下往上的是支持,你想你沒有一個好的一個戰距,你的戰績沒辦法發揮,所以這個關係也很清楚,但是概念有了以後,所以跟各部會是今天協調,我們一定會做一個,我們該做哪一部分,貴部應該要強調強化哪一個方面,我想這樣的話可以把這個目標定的很明確,各部會作業起來也很明快,這第一個。"},{"start":1389.495,"end":1411.196,"text":"第二,剛剛委員講了很多句有關共同土象,尤其東海防空識別區沒有錯,它都有一個來龍才會有這個去脈的。那我們目前國軍在這個每個圖上面,東海識別區防空識別區有話傳,因為話傳我們才發覺,它跟日本跟韓國會有一些啊,可以重疊甚而是一行,就可以貼到的。"},{"start":1411.636,"end":1435.221,"text":"所以以至於造成東北亞跟東海這個地方甚至於西太平洋方面會有很多這個啊這個看格就是這個原因那這要透過一個國際管道跟我們平常啊各部會這個努力大家共同圖像有了認知有了意念一致了國家以後作業相互啊要合作項目等等就很就很快明確我這跟委員處說明"},{"start":1437.154,"end":1464.051,"text":"最近美國蘭德公司2024發布的那個威脅, 裡面特別強調了一個共同圖像,COP,Common Operational Picture。那麼今天早晨本黨陳玉珍委員在問政提到金下水稻的時候也講到要有一個清晰的苗籍跟法條的引述。我想經由這個院長剛才的陳述以及邱部長的解釋,"},{"start":1464.972,"end":1486.969,"text":"我們今後在跨部會的協商、橫向協調上一定可以做得更為精進。那麼也感謝今天兩位給我的回應。我想我們共同努力,因為國家安全是需要整合全國的民心。在有限的資源、有限的時間反應下,我們要做出適當的決策。"},{"start":1490.031,"end":1509.869,"text":"時間有限,資源有限,大家共同努力,也感謝兩位的回答,謝謝。謝謝陳委員永康的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的悲訓。報告委員會,外交及國防組織,喔對不起,下面一位。"}]}},{"id":"149724","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149724","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a2938cdf3b00c116b10d904b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a6c4d3c1afc80b58e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"14:30:32 - 14:46:22","影片長度":"00:15:50","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":950,"end_time":"2024-03-12T14:46:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T14:30:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（14時30分）院長好，我想有請陳建仁院長及國防部邱部長。"],["主席：請陳院長、國防部備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：徐委員午安。"],["徐委員巧芯：午安。先請教一下陳院長，最近晚上睡得怎麼樣？"],["陳院長建仁：我一向睡眠都很好，謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：一向睡眠都很好，我想最近大家都很關心我們的部會首長，還有我們院長，睡得好不好，主要是因為先前在質詢的過程當中，邱國正部長有告訴我們兩岸相當的危險，所以他晚上有的時候很煩惱會睡不著，那想必陳建仁院長沒有這樣子的困擾。但我們今天要問的是CNN著名的評論員他的意見，他談到了現在臺灣已經是世界上最危險的地方，現在變得更加危險，所以我們才會很好奇陳建仁院長怎麼看待目前兩岸的情勢，有感覺到CNN評論員所說的變得更加危險嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：Zakaria在COVID-19的時間曾經訪問過我，我也知道他很關心臺灣的安全，也算是朋友，那我想他最主要的呼籲，就是希望我們臺灣要提高警覺，然後美國跟其他的盟友應該要來協助臺灣做很好的我們臺灣的國防自衛，我們要能戰才能夠避戰，然後備戰才能夠止戰這樣的努力來進行。"],["徐委員巧芯：是的，您說得很好。但是我們看到的是確實有很多各種的問題，比方說最近有一件跟國安疑慮相關的事情，媒體剛才才披露Google Earth這一波臺灣西部做了圖資更新，我們可以看到更新之後，西側國防部過去協調模糊化的高司軍事建築，包含是國防部、空軍司令部、海軍司令部等等都相當的清楚，包含整建中的北部龜山愛國者預備陣地、預部署M1A2戰車的大岡營區、楊梅飛彈營區、苗栗西湖飛彈基地及臺中清泉崗新建萬劍彈庫等等，都在圖資上面可以顯示的相當清楚，我想問一下部長，我們有沒有掌握這個狀況，以及後續有沒有要進行任何的處置？"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，國防安全是大家很關切的課題，像現在科技那麼發達，不管是衛星偵照等等，這些圖資都很容易顯露出來，但我們有一個作為，通常我們會跟這些單位，不管是Google這些單位，會去跟他們做一個協議，有關機敏處所，他們會把它給遮蓋掉，以往都這樣做。"],["徐委員巧芯：目前這個西部圖資的部分，你們會跟Google來協調……"],["邱部長國正：也當然要去。"],["徐委員巧芯：希望他們能夠隱藏起來，保護我們的國防安全嗎？"],["邱部長國正：是，這一定要去做的。"],["徐委員巧芯：會去處理。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：大概什麼時候會去處理？因為今天大家都蠻關心這個事情，最近？近期？"],["邱部長國正：除了去，我們有個作業程序，我去把它瞭解一下，我再跟委員做說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。除了圖資之外，我們都很關心，剛剛院長說睡得很好，但是我想蘇丹紅的問題到現在還沒有解決，包含是已經流向軍方了，老共還沒有打過來，我們先開始擔心國軍的飲食，蘇丹紅議題當時在食安專報的時候就已經延燒了，那時候行政院還講得很大聲說蔡政府任內沒有系統性的食安問題，可是現在蘇丹紅的議題都已經流到軍隊裡面了，陸軍後勤指揮部也有買到了，當然今天國軍有說要預防性下架，可是蘇丹紅現在還沒有查完，每天都有辣椒粉、胡椒粉、雞排粉，咖哩跟沙茶醬都有，請問院長，行政院什麼時候才會把整個蘇丹紅的問題徹查完畢，讓國軍弟兄能夠安心飲食？"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝委員很好的問題，實際上昨天我們鄭文燦副院長已經邀集相關的六個部會就這個蘇丹紅的議題加以討論，我也要求要在1個月內把所有相關消費端的……"],["徐委員巧芯：1個月內你們自己評估會不會太長？"],["陳院長建仁：我跟委員報告，我們現在為什麼會要繼續再來做這個檢查呢？最主要是因為我們往前推6個月啦……"],["徐委員巧芯：往前推6個月。"],["陳院長建仁：因為我們從12月開始就有逐批檢查，那我們往前推6個月的這一些都做逐批檢查，所以現在我要求他們要加速的檢查，把前6個月的這一些萬一有蘇丹紅……"],["徐委員巧芯：可是你們已經查好久了……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：那前6個月的檢查目前已經完成多少？"],["陳院長建仁：因為前6個月的這部分以前都是抽樣檢查，叫抽批的檢查，所以我們現在要求他一個一個都檢查出來，如果這樣檢查出來的話，可能還是會有漏網之魚，但是我跟委員報告，因為我們現在已經掌握了這十幾家同一個家族的公司……"],["徐委員巧芯：理解，所以你們會針對這6個月去做調查，我們現在很清楚。"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們實際上現在對這幾家，只要有這幾家的產品，我們就會提前下架，所以我們有把握下架的時間可能會更提前。"],["徐委員巧芯：對於近期，包含是蘇丹紅，它變成是各種不同的產品流入到市面以及軍隊裡面，行政院有沒有考慮向國人表達歉意？"],["陳院長建仁：好，蘇丹紅確實在整個早期的輸入情況是用抽批的，而且我們都是請他退貨而不是銷毀，我們也發現我們這樣的作法需要再精進，所以我們現在就要求逐批，而且進口非法食品的廠商我們已經禁止它再進口，未來在邊境發現有這樣的情形我們就會銷毀。"],["徐委員巧芯：這本來就是你們應該做的事情。那我想要問消費者權益保障的部分……"],["陳院長建仁：所以確實我們有疏忽的地方，在前面這一個區塊要改進。"],["徐委員巧芯：院長，消費者權益保障的部分，過去食用到蘇丹紅的，相關的消費者權益保障包含退貨等等的，行政院有什麼樣的要求跟處理？"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分我們有……"],["徐委員巧芯：有的拿去，他說你沒有發票，不讓人退貨，怎麼處理？"],["陳院長建仁：我們這個部分會來要求這一些第二層、第三層的食品公司都要接受相關的退貨，如果沒有的話，它是有刑責的，因為這些他們如果不下架，他們是有刑責。"],["徐委員巧芯：當然。針對向國人跟我們軍方弟兄表達歉意的這個部分，目前行政院不考慮，是嗎？還是你們……"],["陳院長建仁：不好意思，再說一次。"],["徐委員巧芯：我的意思是說，請問你們會考慮跟社會外界還有包含我們國人、國軍弟兄，因為過去整個檢查過程當中或許不夠嚴謹導致系統性的蘇丹紅問題跟國人致歉嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分我們昨天就已經有表示，我們在以往對於這些違法廠商的篩檢確實沒有逐批檢查……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有逐批檢查、沒有做好。"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們有所要求精進。"],["徐委員巧芯：要求精進。"],["陳院長建仁：然後要改進。"],["徐委員巧芯：要改進。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我們確實需要改進。"],["徐委員巧芯：要改進，院長認為要改進。","主席，我想要請外交部長。"],["主席：麻煩請外交部備詢。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝部長，請外交部。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：我想要請問幾個跟臺灣民主基金會相關的問題。"],["吳部長釗燮：委員好，是。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問這個基金會按照組織人事規章是由誰提名後任命執行長？"],["吳部長釗燮：依照規章的規定，執行長是由董事長提名，由董事會通過。"],["徐委員巧芯：董事長按照過去的慣例是由立法院長來擔任嗎？有沒有向民主基金會瞭解，新國會之後新任的董事會什麼時候會召開改選？"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於董事會召開的時間，我們正在跟即將接任董事長的立法院院長協商當中。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。再來我想要問的是，臺灣民主基金會是接受外交部的補助，開放政黨按照得票比例申請預算，這些申請有沒有相關的規範，例如要要求哪一類型的活動才符合補助的原則，你們有沒有審核的機制？"],["吳部長釗燮：並沒有很仔細的規範，但是各個政黨都有他們自己想要展開……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有很仔細的規範，但我們在官網上就可以看到補助類型，這5項是你們具體上面講到補助類型，所以沒有在補助類型上面的我們也可以申請，你們也會給它通過嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：是由各個政黨認為他們要進行民主外交的過程當中……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以上面這個補助類型是寫好看的？不一定？"],["吳部長釗燮：也不是，以這個為主。"],["徐委員巧芯：需不需要審核？有關補助類型，政黨來申請需不需要按照上面，我要寫跟上面補助類型1、2、3、4、5有關的才能申請，沒有關的就別申請了，你們會不會說沒有關的請你不要申請？會不會？"],["吳部長釗燮：以這個為主，但是我們尊重各個政黨他們自己的外交活動。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問這些補助案、補助給政黨的案子您有看過嗎？結案報告您在意嗎？以及就你的瞭解，政黨向民主基金會申請的補助是具有國家機密性的嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個部分我們並沒有去看，因為我的職責可能不到這邊，而是這個民主基金會必須要向我們的主計處來核銷。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們補助的活動除了上述的補助要點之外，有包含選舉活動嗎？這個我想要問一下院長，您覺得外交部所補助的臺灣民主基金會，然後讓政黨來申請補助的時候，包含選舉相關的活動，您覺得是合適的嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得如果有國外的人要來臺灣看我們選舉的狀況……"],["徐委員巧芯：觀選OK？"],["陳院長建仁：對，觀選。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是政黨拿這個經費補助去掛羊頭賣狗肉辦選舉活動，您認可嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得這要看它的報告內容。"],["徐委員巧芯：要看報告的內容，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：您先記得這句話。如果發生政黨申請補助然後拿去做競選活動，後來才發現這件事情，我們有任何機制會追回或是會懲罰嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這個基金會的操作我不是很清楚。"],["吳部長釗燮：到目前為止，那個基金會是獨立運作的，我們也沒有看到這方面的資料……"],["徐委員巧芯：但是我們政府的錢不應該被政黨拿去作為選舉之用，兩位同意嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：如果委員有這方面的資料，交給我們，我們來看。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，有這方面的資料，我們現在就讓大家來看看。第一個，2023年的國務青旗艦營核銷補助80萬，賴清德當面力邀民進黨國務青宣示投入輔選，9月投入空戰跟陸戰；我們看下一張投影片，2023年青年對話行動核銷補助100萬元，新聞上面都直接講是在搶選票，鎖定KOL20人操盤搶年輕選票，賴清德青年對話行動3月開跑；下一張投影片，2023民主臺灣客家峰會核銷補助62萬元也是，新聞下標直接寫搶攻客家選票；再下一張，民主和平兵推營100萬，裡面寫什麼呢？這個裡面直接就講大型營隊兵推營是要做輔選活動。這些都是由執行長核定的，對吧？臺灣民主基金會執行長核定。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，應該是。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們剛詢問兩位，對於政黨申請補助透過這個來做外交或者觀選，我們都覺得很棒，但如果是像剛才那樣拿來做政黨的競選，請問院長，您覺得合適嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：如果剛才那幾個案子像青年人的座談或者是客家的座談等等，我覺得這不盡然是輔選。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們回到剛才國務青那個，國務青就是民進黨的青年軍，他們來參加活動就是去輔選的，我相信在選舉過程中您們也都有遇到過國務青，結果國務青輔選團隊的訓練經費是由臺灣民主基金會來提供，你們真的覺得這樣合適嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：國務青不是輔選的團隊，國務青是民進黨的一個團隊，然後是年輕人的團隊……"],["徐委員巧芯：然後他們有沒有參與輔選？"],["陳院長建仁：他們在別的活動裡面是參與輔選，可在這個活動裡……"],["徐委員巧芯：這個活動您確定沒有嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有看過報告我不知道……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我給您看的就是……"],["陳院長建仁：但是我不能夠看到一個名字就說……"],["徐委員巧芯：院長，我們想要瞭解他們有沒有濫用我們補助的公帑去做輔選之實，所以我向對方要求提供結案報告，您覺得他們應該要提供嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：跟委員報告一下，民主基金會是獨立運作的一個單位，但是……"],["徐委員巧芯：當然，但是裡面用了公帑，如果拿去選舉，這就會產生很大的問題，所以我們希望瞭解它有沒有濫用，所以我們向你們去調閱了，請問可不可以提供結案報告，結果我們得到的答案是因為各政黨計畫具機敏性，故無法提供政黨所送的結案報告。你們覺得這樣合理嗎？如果我們沒有辦法看結案報告，我要怎麼知道它當時送進來的計畫有沒有符合補助要點？結案報告裡面到底這個活動是被拿去作為選舉之用還是做一些所謂的青年相關的對話而已？我們該怎麼知道、我們該怎麼審核預算、我們該怎麼決定接下來對於民主基金會的相關補助要如何進行呢？"],["吳部長釗燮：我剛剛跟委員報告過，民主基金會是一個獨立運作的單位，今年下半年在審核民主基金會預算的時候，我想這個委員可以提出來。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，未來如果還有政黨拿了選舉的計畫，掛羊頭賣狗肉，它給你的時候講我們要辦民主、我們要辦青年，但是最後拿去做了選舉之實，請問我們有沒有相當的效力去要求不能這樣做？因為裡面涉及到的是我們外交部的補助，而外交部的經費來自人民的納稅錢。"],["陳院長建仁：我想是這樣子，如果委員覺得要有加強這一個力道，對於民間的團體來做監督的話，也許在今年審查會的時候、預算審查的時候，應該加一些決議讓他們來遵循。"],["徐委員巧芯：最後我問一下，您覺得這樣子的政黨申請補助之後的結案報告是涉及什麼方面的機敏性，不能讓立法委員來做調閱？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個應該由民主基金會來回答，因為民主基金會……"],["陳院長建仁：對，我們沒有辦法……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，它不提供給我們，所以我問你們認不認為這有機敏性嘛！你們認不認為這涉及所謂的政黨或是國家的機密？這是你們的看法，跟它無關啊！"],["吳部長釗燮：剛剛跟委員報告過，民主基金會是一個獨立運作的單位……"],["徐委員巧芯：我聽過了、我聽過了……"],["吳部長釗燮：也跟委員講一下……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是你覺得政黨申請的部分有沒有涉及機敏性？"],["吳部長釗燮：民主基金會有很多的慣例存在，我們基本上對這些慣例都尊重。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員巧芯的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第4位的陳委員永康質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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Earth這一波呢台灣西部做了一個圖資的更新"},{"start":118.559,"end":146.722,"text":"我們可以看到更新之後那可以看到西側國防部這個過去協調模糊化的高斯軍事建築包含是國防部、空軍司令部、海軍司令部等等都相當的清楚包含整建中的北部龜山愛國者獄被鎮地、獄部屬M1、A2戰車的大崗營區、楊梅飛彈營區、苗栗西湖飛彈基地以及台中清泉崗新建萬建庫等等都在圖資上面可以顯示的相當清楚"},{"start":147.122,"end":152.337,"text":"我想問一下部長我們有沒有掌握這個狀況以及後續有沒有要進行任何的處置?"},{"start":154.831,"end":181.809,"text":"國防安全是大家很關切課題像現在科技那麼發達不管是衛星徵兆等等這些圖資都很容易顯露出來但我有一個作為通常我會跟這些單位不管是Google這些單位會有去跟他們做一個協議有關於這個機敏處所他會把它給遮蓋掉那目前這個西部圖資的部分我們會跟Google來協調希望他們能夠隱藏起來保護我們的國防安全嗎"},{"start":182.629,"end":186.791,"text":"除了這個圖資之外呢這個我們都很關心剛剛院長說得很好那但是呢我想蘇丹紅的問題到現在還沒有解決那包含是已經流向軍方了"},{"start":205.037,"end":224.7,"text":"老共還沒有打過來,我們先開始擔心國軍的飲食。蘇丹紅議題當時在食安專報的時候就已經延燒了,那時候行政院還講得很大聲說蔡政府任內沒有系統性的食安問題,可現在蘇丹紅的議題都已經流到軍隊裡面了,陸軍的後勤指揮部也有買到了。"},{"start":225,"end":225.28,"text":"好,謝謝委員的很好的問題。"},{"start":246.896,"end":267.81,"text":"實際上昨天我們鄭文燦副院長已經召開了相關的六個部會就蘇丹紅的這個議題加以討論那我也要求要在一個月內要把所有的相關的消費端的一個月內你們自己評估會不會太差"},{"start":269.17,"end":297.26,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們現在為什麼會要繼續再來做這個檢查呢?最主要是因為我們往前推6個月啦。往前推6個月。因為我們從12月開始就有逐批檢查。那我們往前推6個月的這一些,我們都做逐批檢查。所以現在我要求他們要加速的檢查以後,把前6個月的這一些萬一有疏擋防控。可是我們已經查好久了。那前6個月的檢查目前已經完成?"},{"start":297.52,"end":323.73,"text":"因為前6個月的這一個部分以前都是抽樣檢查叫抽批的檢查那我們現在要求他一個一個都檢查出來所以如果這樣檢查出來的話可能還是會有漏網之魚但是我跟委員報告因為我們現在已經掌握了這十幾家的這一個同一個家族的這一些公司所以你們會針對這6個月去做調查所以我們實際上現在對這幾家"},{"start":326.551,"end":328.111,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":354.735,"end":354.995,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":375.302,"end":393.563,"text":"那我想問消費者的權益保障部分。院長,消費者權益保障的部分,過去使用到蘇丹紅的,那相關的消費者權益保障,包含是退貨啊等等的,我們行政院有什麼樣的要求跟處理呢?有的拿得去,他說你沒有發票不讓他退貨。"},{"start":394.324,"end":423.543,"text":"我們這個部分會來要求相關的第二層第三層的這一些食品公司都要接受這個相關的退貨如果沒有的話他是有刑責的因為這些他們如果不下架他們是有刑責針對國人跟我們軍方的弟兄表達歉意的這個部分目前行政院不考慮是嗎還是你們我的意思是說請問你們會考慮跟社會外界還有包含我們國人國軍弟兄"},{"start":423.983,"end":437.688,"text":"因為過去整個檢查的過程當中或許不夠嚴謹所產生導致於系統性的蘇丹紅的問題跟國人致歉嗎?這個部分我們昨天就已經有表示我們在以往的這個對於這些違法廠商的篩檢確實沒有"},{"start":441.509,"end":457.056,"text":"主批檢查,所以我們有所要求精進,然後要改進,對,我們確實需要改進。要改進,院長認為要改進。主席,我想請那個,主席,院長我想要請那個外交部長,我們先謝謝。麻煩請外交部被請。謝謝,謝謝部長,請外交部。謝謝。"},{"start":466.431,"end":493.124,"text":"我想要請問幾個跟臺灣民主基金會相關的問題請問呢這個基金會按照我們的組織人事規章是由誰提名後任命執行長?依照規章的這個規定是由那個執行長是由董事長提名由董事會通過那董事長呢按照過去的慣例是由立法院長來擔任嗎?有沒有像民主基金會瞭解新國會之後新任的董事會什麼時候會召開改選?"},{"start":494.837,"end":521.38,"text":"有關於董事會召開的時間我們正在跟那個即將接任董事長的立法院院長正在協商當中。好那再來我們想要問的是台灣民主基金會是接受我們外交部的補助開放政黨按照比例申請的得票比例申請預算那這些申請有沒有相關的規範例如要要求哪一類型的活動才符合補助的原則我們有沒有審核的機制?"},{"start":522.259,"end":522.399,"text":"﹚徐巧芯﹚"},{"start":545.146,"end":547.087,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":573.28,"end":577.127,"text":"政黨向民主基金會申請的補助它是具有國家機密性的嗎?"},{"start":578.14,"end":578.16,"text":"我認為"},{"start":608.14,"end":613.91,"text":"如果有國外的人要來臺灣看我們的選舉的狀況關選OK關選OK但是政黨拿這個經費補助其實去掛羊頭賣狗肉去辦選舉活動您認可嗎?"},{"start":622.13,"end":650.532,"text":"我覺得這要看報告的內容。要看報告的內容對不對。您先記得這句話。那如果發生是政黨申請補助然後拿去做競選活動後來才發現這件事情我們有任何機制會追回嗎?或是會懲罰嗎?這個基金會的操作我不是很清楚。到目前為止那個基金會是獨立運作的。那我們也沒有看到這方面的資料。獨立運作但是我們政府的錢不應該被拿去政黨作為選舉之用兩位同意嗎?"},{"start":651.42,"end":670.278,"text":"如果說委員有這方面的資料交給我們以後我們來看。好,有這方面的資料我們就現在讓大家來看看喔。 這個第一個,2023年的國務卿齊建穎核銷補助80萬,賴清德當面力邀民進黨國務卿宣誓投入輔選,9月投入空戰跟陸戰,我們看下一張投影片。"},{"start":671.107,"end":694.181,"text":"二零二三年青年對話行動和蕭補助一百萬元在新聞上面都直接講是在搶選票鎖定KOL二十人超盤搶年輕選票賴清德青年對話行動三月開跑下一張投影片二零二三民主台灣客家峰會和蕭補助六十二萬元也是新聞下標直接寫搶攻客家選票再下一張"},{"start":695.393,"end":711.33,"text":"民主、和平、兵推營100萬,裡面寫什麼呢?你們直接就講了,這個裡面的直接就講大型營隊兵推營是要幹嘛呢?復選活動,下一頁。這些都是由執行長核定的對吧?"},{"start":712.342,"end":731.395,"text":"臺灣民主基金會執行長何鼎我們剛詢問兩位大家對於政黨來申請補助去透過這個來做外交或者官選我們都覺得很棒但如果是像剛才那樣拿來做政黨的競選請問院長您覺得合適嗎如果剛才那幾個案子像那個"},{"start":733.183,"end":734.544,"text":"國務卿就是民進黨的青年軍他們來參加活動就是去輔選的"},{"start":750.14,"end":752.462,"text":"國務卿是一個民進黨的一個團隊,然後是年輕人的團隊。 然後他們有沒有參與輔選?"},{"start":775.629,"end":780.835,"text":"院長您覺得我們想要了解他們有沒有濫用我們的輔助的公帑去做輔選之事所以我向對方要求提供結案報告您覺得他們應該要提供嗎?"},{"start":798.684,"end":817.906,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是民主基金會他是獨立運作的一個當然但是裡面用了公卡如果拿去選舉這就會產生很大的問題所以我們希望了解他有沒有濫用所以我們向你們去調閱了請問可不可以提供結案報告結果我們得到的答案是"},{"start":818.927,"end":833.023,"text":"因為各政黨計劃具機敏性,無法提供政黨所送的結案報告。你們覺得這樣合理嗎?如果我們沒有辦法看結案報告,我要怎麼知道他當時送的計劃進來有沒有符合補助要點?"},{"start":833.624,"end":838.228,"text":"我剛跟委員報告過民主基金會是一個獨立運作的單位那在今年下半年在審核民主基金會預算的時候那我想這個委員可以提出來"},{"start":860.307,"end":882.148,"text":"是未來如果還有政黨拿了選舉的計劃掛羊頭賣狗肉他給你的時候講說有我們要辦民主我們要辦青年但是最後拿去做了選舉支持請問我們有沒有相當的效力要求說不能這樣做因為裡面涉及到的是我們外交部的補助而外交部的經費來自人民的納稅錢"},{"start":883.509,"end":907.57,"text":"我想這樣子,如果委員覺得要有加強這個力道對於這個民間的團體來做監督的話,也許在今年的審查會的時候,預算審查的時候應該有加一些這個決議讓他們來遵行。最後我問一下,您覺得這樣子的政黨申請補助之後的結案報告它是涉及怎麼樣方面的機敏性不能讓立法委員來做調閱?"},{"start":909.682,"end":932.287,"text":"這個應該由民主基金會那邊來回答沒有我是問你們覺得沒有那他不提供給我們那我問你們是你們認不認為這有機敏性嗎你們認不認為這涉及所謂的政黨或是國家的機密這是你們的看法這跟他無關吶剛剛跟委員報過那個民主基金會他是一個獨立運作的這個單位我聽過了我聽過了我問的是你覺得那個民主基金會有很多的"},{"start":940.069,"end":946.989,"text":"謝謝徐委員巧芯的質詢謝謝陳院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第四位陳委員永康質詢"}]}},{"id":"149720","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149720","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a29385ac812cd1375f89d04b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a60954a5661336367d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:40:28 - 11:55:56","影片長度":"00:15:28","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":928,"end_time":"2024-03-12T11:55:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T11:40:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":775,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時40分）謝謝主席，麻煩請院長及國防部長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長、國防部備詢。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長、部長早安。"],["陳院長建仁：委員早，恭喜你。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，您的社會流行病學的書我拜讀很多次，真的獲益良多，謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：我在這邊有幾個問題想要請教院長，我們知道，依據憲法如果總統無法視事，那就是由副總統代理；如果副總統也不行的話，是由院長代理。我想請教一下院長，如果我們今天質詢到一半，然後突然國家的警報簡訊大作，可能是飛彈的空襲警報，在這邊的話，院長知道防空洞在哪裡嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這裡的防空設施我不太清楚，應該是看這裡有地下室的地方。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟院長說明一下，立法院其實有一些避難設施，譬如在青島會館、議場或中興大樓樓下都有，我今天為什麼要提這個？畢竟兩岸現在比較兵凶戰危，現在他們的戰略方式是希望以斬首的方向來減少對平民的傷害，所以我覺得院長在這裡也是隨時要有危機的意識，我們也要知道一下在立法院這邊如果發生一些緊急狀況的時候，也能夠有地方可以去躲、去避難。雖然我自己擔任立委的時間不長，但是我覺得這一段時間，我感覺國家的狀況好像越來越走向兵凶戰危，昨天CNN有一個報導，大概的意思就是以前認為臺灣是一個最危險的地方，現在變得更危險。當然這個是國外媒體對我們的分析，究竟對或不對，我想院長以及部長心裡一定都很清楚這整個狀況。我在這邊還是想要奉勸一下目前的政府，其實引起戰爭的往往都是領袖而不是人民，一個最愚蠢的領袖就是把戰爭跟貧窮帶給下一代，我想兩位長官在這邊一定都能夠體會這一句話。一個領導人能夠做出最愚蠢的事真的就是把戰爭跟貧窮帶給下一代，其實這個是很不好的。","我想在這邊請教一下部長，部長，請問一下，您知道在司法及法制委員會監督的行政院部會中，哪一個部會跟國防部目前最密切？"],["邱部長國正：委員是針對人嗎？還是針對部？"],["吳委員宗憲：就是一些公務上面，最近……"],["邱部長國正：我們跟很多部會都會有關聯，不管是海委會或者法務部，內政部有時候也會有。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟部長說明一下，其實跟法務部有蠻多的聯繫對吧？"],["邱部長國正：對，跟法務部。"],["吳委員宗憲：尤其是在102年（2013年）軍事審判法修正之後，到103年（2014年）其實已經把所有的人還有案件，受刑人現在都是交給法務部在處理。也就是說，現在的軍事審判已經變成是普通法院或是地檢署在處理中嘛！以現在這個狀況，軍事法院跟軍事法院檢察署目前大概都是處理一些刑事補償案件而已，而沒有像以前一樣會有一些軍事法院的訴訟案件在進行。我想提一個東西就是在這個狀況下，在加重普通法院這麼多工作量的情況下，會不會發生一個狀況就是還沒有到戰爭爆發，我們的內部就已經出了很多狀況？部長，您知道從今年2月底到現在發生了多少件軍人自殺的案件？"],["邱部長國正：我知道，這個數量……"],["吳委員宗憲：我們看一下，從2月26號到3月7號已經發生了那麼多件，其實這個數字應該算是不低，尤其在2016年的時候，國防部當時就有說要把零自傷、就是不要發生自傷案件當成一個重大的施政目標，但是近年來自傷的案件就不停地攀升，我想部長應該很知道這個狀況。不管發生自殺、這種自傷案件，檢方就必須要介入，譬如驗屍，或者去調查一下他到底是自殺、還是他殺，或是背後有沒有一些狀況，其實也無形地就增加了檢方非常多的工作量。","部長，其實在之前有檢討自殺案件一直增加的時候，我看到有一個報導，就是部長有提到這個問題是出在有一些人的壓力抗壓性比較弱。我跟部長說，其實這個話比較不妥，因為大家比較希望我們檢討制度出了什麼問題，而不是去檢討自殺者他的行為哪裡出了狀況。我想對於您當初的這個說法，全國的心理師、諮商師可能也不是那麼認同，將來有機會也許是不是能夠對這句話加以說明、道歉或是收回之類的？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，是不是給部長說明一下？"],["邱部長國正：報告委員，我能不能用一點時間跟您做說明，好不好？"],["吳委員宗憲：是，請說。"],["邱部長國正：剛剛前面一位有講到認知作戰，這些當初講的話我記得清清楚楚，我不光講這一個，我講任何一件自殺案件的發生，對他個人、對他家庭、對部隊都是斲傷，斲傷的狀況下也是遺憾，但是我們要檢討的話，沒有定論。我們要從哪一個？第一個，我先講我們內部管理有沒有問題？管教方面，有沒有給他工作壓力很大？這是第一個。","第二個，他個人在外面不管是債務的問題、或感情問題或者家庭問題，這我都沒有設定，沒有設定立場。但有一些人的確同樣的工作加在不同的人身上，他有不同反應，就代表什麼？每個人抗壓性、個性是有所不同的，這的確也是在個人因素當中之一環，但並沒有完全歸納到，哎呀！他就是抗壓性不夠，我當部長從來沒有講過這句話，所以這種認知作戰不是被加進來了嗎？他引用你這一段，好像不得了了，一點人性都沒有。我們國防部一直強調的是照顧官兵、一家人，沒有講我認定你就是錯的。","現在任何這種事情發生以後，我們都公開到什麼地步？第一個，依法究辦，依法究辦代表什麼？我不吃案，這一點我們已經平息很多大家的疑義，甚至於在調查當中也請家人，你要委託誰或外面有專業的人要加入，我們統統可以配合，這的確很坦白、公開的，沒有講認定他、錯都在他，不是這樣子。"],["吳委員宗憲：好的，謝謝部長。我們再來提一下，我們剛剛有秀出光是2月底到現在就非常多件。我來提一個，就是監察院之前針對陸軍第八軍團203旅班長柳姓下士自殺的案件裡面有提到，我唸給大家聽，就是近10年國軍自殺案件中士官兵占75%，這代表國軍基層出了狀況；國防部對於察覺軍官、士官及士兵環境、身心狀態轉換之危機評估顯有不足；編制裡的心理輔導官面對軍中龐大的人數也無法負荷；再來，這些有關精神疾病的判斷及診療應該要由專業的精神科醫師進行協處，國防部應該引入這些資源。部長，我想請教一下，監察院之前已經有作出這樣的調查意旨了，國防部到目前為止為什麼發生自傷的比率還是頻頻上升？所以這個是當初監察院的報告沒有做好，還是國防部沒有落實呢？"],["邱部長國正：我首先跟委員報告，任何一個士官兵出了問題，領導幹部一定要負責，絕對不會脫開，說這是他個人的行為，不會！我剛剛也跟委員做了說明，這種事情一發生以後，我們會從多方面來考量。監察委員給我們的調查結果，我們絕對予以尊重，的確國軍有很多地方沒有最好，但是我們要不斷地求比較好或者更好，這個是我們要努力的。","至於防處方面，基本上部隊裡面就有3個防線，這個防線不是一個口號，他的幹部每天跟他相處在一道，旁邊周邊這些人都是每天日夜相處的，這些就是第一道防線，所以我們現在可能欠缺的是，他被關注的內容或這個層次可能不夠，反而是這種他沒講什麼，應該OK啊！我就跟委員報告，前一陣子發生的憲兵事件，發生的時候旁邊的人還跟他打招呼，沒有任何……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，因為時間的關係，我知道部長的意思，我想說有關這個部分有些系統性上面的問題還是要麻煩部長能夠多用點力，因為每一個人都是家中的寶貝，他送到部隊當然是希望能夠平平安安地把役服完，希望部長就這部分能夠再用點心。","再來，我們看一下很多自殺一定是源自於心理壓力，院長一定非常非常地清楚，我們看一下國軍目前這幾個狀況，什麼會符合國軍第一擊的情況？"],["邱部長國正：沒有，我沒有講說這個符合，我剛好跟委員說明一下，第一擊的改變，不是今年1月這些狀況才改變的，在111年有些案件出來以後，我就已經調整了，因為戰備規定是我國防部的權責，所以我就調了，調了以後，為什麼？因為所謂的第一擊是開槍開砲叫第一擊，不過我們要等到中共開槍開砲才叫第一擊，但金門的事件，無人機一侵擾以後，大家反應怎麼樣？好像變成國防部毫無作為，但我在扛責任。我想 ，好，為了避免這種事情再發生，我就把這樣的律令改了，不管無人、有人，只要一個航空實體到我們的領空了，就是我們的權責……"],["吳委員宗憲：有人、無人有時候很難辨識，對不對？因為現在的無人機也很大一臺。"],["邱部長國正：所以我要跟委員報告一下，這個程序一定要走完，所以我們為了這個，要打訊號彈，要警告、要辨識、要去確認，確認以後再喊話，不管透過……"],["吳委員宗憲：我自己的朋友在第一線，他跟我說因為他們都搞不清楚這個第一擊定義是什麼，他們也很怕做了什麼行為之後會不會被當作罪犯，到底他的作為符不符合國際法或者是武裝衝突法的規範，他們都搞不清楚，所以這一塊也要麻煩部長儘量在教育上面能夠落實，能夠讓第一線的官兵他們心裡不要有那麼大的壓力，因為他們現在的壓力除了軍中一些管教問題之外，他們也很擔心我今天為了國家做了這個反擊動作到底合不合法？這是他們心裡一個很大的壓力。我這邊也是要麻煩部長對這一塊能夠稍微做一下。","再來，部長，我們從2024年開始兵役就要延長為1年了，依照我手中的數據今年會有9,100人，4年後會到3萬5,000人，所以這一次國防部跟法務部也有討論到軍人逃亡的這個問題，我們剛剛所提到的，現在案子都要由普通法院以及地檢署管轄，將來役期延長到一年之後，我擔心的就是案件量一定會暴增，部長，您知不知道現在在處理案子的一審檢察官全國有多少人，您知道嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我不知道，反正因為案件多嘛……"],["吳委員宗憲：這邊跟部長說明一下，總共到去年底是1,065人，這個還包括了公訴檢察官、執行科檢察官，也就是說不是每一個都在辦案子，在辦案子的檢察官將來要面對役期延長到一年，到時候人力上面會不會有很大的問題？這個是我很擔心的，所以我希望一件事情，當年我們把軍事審判法修改，我們從現在再往當年去看，有點類似頭痛醫頭，腳痛醫腳，所以整個就丟給普通法院，但是我始終認為制度沒有問題，軍事審判沒有問題，問題是出在人，但是當時就是這樣把它整個處理掉了。","我有一個建議，我希望，因為現在的檢察官要面對國內太多治安案件，像詐欺罪暴增，讓檢察官都負荷不了了，有關軍事的部分是不是也可以研擬看看，有沒有可能將一些軍法的案件把它轉回去由軍事審判法來去追訴？譬如說像暴行犯上、抗命、洩漏機密或是一些影響社會重大的案件，或者像有些是酒駕、毒品，還是由軍事審判去處理，不是什麼都丟給基層的檢察官。我跟兩位說明一下，現在基層第一審的檢察官以及法官其實都受不了，因為我自己做過20年檢察官，我很清楚，現在的案件量不要再講裁判品質了，人民不信任司法是剛剛好而已。所以我們可以研擬一下，看能不能夠把這個轉回去由軍事審判來處理，再麻煩部長能夠思考……"],["邱部長國正：委員，幾秒鐘我跟你說明，陸海空軍刑法的修正和軍人權益的管理辦法，我們都已經擬定好了，而且已經呈到行政院去，院裡面通過以後會經過大院審查。"],["吳委員宗憲：最後，我希望我們也可以考量93軍人節到底要不要放假，或是第一線戰鬥人員加薪的問題，也麻煩部長能夠考慮，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員宗憲的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","報告院會，我們上午質詢到此為止，本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理，下午2點30分繼續開會，進行外交及國防組之質詢。現在休息，謝謝。","休息（11時56分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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戰略方式是希望斬首的方向來減少對平民的傷害所以啊院長在這裡其實我覺得我們也是隨時要有危機的意識那我們也是要知道一下這立法院哪個地方如果再發生一些緊急狀況的時候也能夠有地方可以去躲然後去避難那其實我覺得啦就是"},{"start":100.54,"end":127.151,"text":"因為我自己擔任立委時間不長,但是我覺得這段時間我感覺是國家的狀況好像越來越走向兵凶戰危。昨天CNN也有一個報導,它的大概意思就是說以前認為台灣是一個最危險的地方,現在變得更危險。當然這個是國外媒體對我們的分析,對或不對我想院長以及部長心裡一定都很清楚這整個狀況。"},{"start":128.831,"end":128.851,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":159.987,"end":173.842,"text":"那我想在這邊請教一下部長。部長請問一下您知道我們司法法治委員會監督的行政院部會中哪一個部會跟國防部目前那個最密切?"},{"start":181.854,"end":195.382,"text":"對,我們跟很多部會都會有關聯,不管是海委會或者法務部,對政部有的也會有那我跟部長說明一下,其實跟法務部有蠻多的聯繫,尤其是在"},{"start":195.782,"end":195.802,"text":"﹚吳宗憲"},{"start":221.44,"end":234.798,"text":"現在這個狀況呢,軍事法院跟軍事法院檢察署現在大概都是處理一些刑事補償案件而已,就沒有像以前一樣會有一些訴訟啊,軍事法院一些訴訟的案件在進行。那我想"},{"start":236.892,"end":261.822,"text":"我想提一個東西就是說在這個狀況下在加重了普通法院這麼多工作量的情況下我們會不會發生一個狀況就是還沒有到戰爭爆發我們的內部就已經出了很多狀況部長您知道就是從今年二月底到現在發生了多少件這個軍人自殺的案件"},{"start":262.398,"end":267.019,"text":"我知道這個數量來我們看一下這邊有2月26號到3月7號已經發生了那麼多件那其實這個數字應該算是不低尤其是在2016年的時候國防部當時就有說我們要把"},{"start":283.086,"end":283.106,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":300.404,"end":318.678,"text":"不管發生怎麼樣,發生自殺啦,這種自殺案件,檢方就必須要去介入。就譬如說驗屍啦,或者是說我們去調查一下他到底是自殺還是他殺,或是背後有沒有一些狀況。那其實也無形的就增加了檢方非常多的工作量。"},{"start":319.568,"end":341.213,"text":"那部長其實在之前有檢討這個自殺案件一直增加的時候我看到有一個報導就是部長有提到說這個問題是出在有一些人他的壓力抗壓性比較弱我跟部長說其實這個話比較不妥啦因為大家比較希望就是說我們檢討制度出了什麼問題而不是"},{"start":341.715,"end":341.735,"text":"﹚吳宗憲"},{"start":358.581,"end":361.082,"text":"加以說明或是道歉或是收回之類的。"},{"start":380.089,"end":380.109,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":403.638,"end":427.058,"text":"同樣的工作加在不同的人身上他有不同反應就代表什麼每個人抗壓性他個性是有所不同的這的確也是在這個個人因素當中之一環但並沒有完全歸來哎呀他就抗壓性不夠我部長才沒有講過這句話所以這認知狀態加進來吧他引用你這一段好像不得了了這一點人性都沒有"},{"start":427.739,"end":427.759,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":439.52,"end":457.809,"text":"一法就外,一法就代表法,我不施案。 這點我們已經提及很多,大家都會有疑議。 甚至於調查當中,也請家人,你要委託誰,或萬一有專業人要加入,我們通通可以配合。 這個我的確很坦白公開的,沒有講出來,認定他,錯斷他。"},{"start":460.39,"end":482.681,"text":"好的,謝謝部長。我們再來提一下,我們剛有秀出光是二月底到現在就非常多件。那我來提一個就是監察院之前針對陸軍第八軍團203旅的班長劉姓夏氏自殺的案件裡面,他其實有提到,我再唸給大家聽,就是近十年國際自殺案件中士官兵佔75%。"},{"start":485.175,"end":508.054,"text":"這代表國軍基層出了狀況。國防部對於視察、察覺軍官、士官、士兵環境身心狀況轉換的危機評估顯有不足。編制的心理輔導官的編制面對軍中龐大的人數也無法負荷。再來就是說這些有關精神疾病的判斷跟診療應該是要由專業的精神科醫師進行協處。"},{"start":512.489,"end":532.369,"text":"那國防部應該要引入這些資源。那部長我想請教一下監察院之前已經有做出這樣的調查的意旨了那國防部到目前為止為什麼發生智商的這個比例還是頻頻上升?所以這個是當初監察院的報告沒有做好還是國防部沒有落實呢?"},{"start":533.117,"end":557.151,"text":"我首先跟委員報告,任何一項士官兵他們出了問題,領導幹部一定要負責,絕對不會脫開他個人的行為,不會。那我剛剛我也跟委員做了說明,這種事情一發生以後,我們會從多方面來考量。監察委員給我們調查結果,我們覺得予以尊重。 的確,國軍有很多地方沒有最好,但我們要不但要求比較好或更好。"},{"start":557.711,"end":581.302,"text":"在這個是我要努力的至於防處方面我們基本上部隊裡面就有三個防線這防線不是一個口號喔他的幹部每天跟他相處在一道旁邊周邊這些人都是每天日夜相處的這些就第一道防線所以我們現在可能欠缺講說他對他關注的這個內容啊或者這個層次可能不夠這種他沒講什麼應該OK啊"},{"start":582.583,"end":600.575,"text":"我就跟委員報告前一陣子發生的憲兵的事情,那個發生的時候,旁邊的人還跟他打招呼,沒有任何事,那我不推。部長,因為時間的關係,我想我知道部長的意思。那我想說,有關這個部分有些系統性上面的問題,還是要麻煩部長能夠多用點力,因為每一個人都是家中的寶貝。"},{"start":601.576,"end":623.846,"text":"那他送到部隊了,但是希望說能夠平平安安的把服役服完,希望說部長就這部分能夠再用點心。那再來我們看一下,很多自殺一定是源自於心理壓力,這個院長一定非常非常的清楚。那我們看一下國軍目前第一級這幾個狀況,什麼會符合國軍的第一級的情況,這幾個狀況。"},{"start":626.874,"end":647.059,"text":"沒有,我沒有講這個符合,我要跟委員剛好說明一下,這個第一集是改變,不是今年這些狀況才改變的。我在161年有些案件出來以後我就已經調整了。因為國防這個戰略規定是我國防部的權責,所以我就調了。調了以後為什麼?因為現在的第一集,"},{"start":647.839,"end":648.64,"text":"有人無人有時候很難辨識啊 對不對"},{"start":677.381,"end":703.94,"text":"因為現在的無人機也很大一台所以我要跟委員報告一下這個程序一定要走完所以我們為什麼打訊號彈要警告要辨識要去確認確認以後再喊話不管透過什麼報告我自己的朋友他在第一線他是跟我說因為這個第一級他們都搞不清楚定義是什麼他們也很怕做了什麼行為之後會不會被當作罪犯"},{"start":704.52,"end":729.55,"text":"那到底他的作為符不符合國際法或者是這武裝衝突法的規範,他們都搞不清楚。 所以這一塊也要麻煩部長盡量在教育上面能夠落實,能夠讓第一線的官兵他們心裡不要有那麼大的壓力,因為他們現在的壓力除了軍中一些管教問題之外,他們也很擔心說到底我今天為了國家做了這個反擊動作到底合不合法,這是他們心裡一個很大的壓力。"},{"start":730.529,"end":743.668,"text":"那我這邊也是要麻煩部長這一塊能夠稍微做一下。那再來部長從2024年開始我們兵役就要延長為一年了嘛。那依照我手中的數據今年會9100人,那到4年後會到35000人。"},{"start":747.273,"end":775.294,"text":"那所以呢這一次這個這個國防部跟法務部有討論到軍人逃亡的這個問題那我們剛剛所提到的現在案子都要有普通法院以及地檢署管轄那將來這個一起延長到一年之後這個我想擔心的就是案件量一定會暴增部長您知不知道現在那個在處理案子的一審檢察官全國多少人知道嗎"},{"start":776.249,"end":779.114,"text":"總共到去年底是1065人,這個還包括了公訴檢察官、執行科檢察官,也就是說不是每一個都在辦案子的。"},{"start":791.613,"end":811.589,"text":"那在辦案子的檢察官將來要面對疫情延長到一年,到時候人力上面會不會有很大的問題,這個是我很擔心的。所以我希望一件事情就是說,當年我們把軍審判法修改,我們從現在再往當年去看,有點類似頭痛一頭腳痛一腳。"},{"start":813.13,"end":813.15,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":834.514,"end":834.534,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":852.154,"end":853.475,"text":"現在基層第一審的檢察官以及法官"},{"start":874.83,"end":903.332,"text":"其實都受不了因為我自己做過20年前阿公我很清楚現在的案件量不要再講裁判品質了人民不信任司法是剛剛好而已所以我們可以研擬一下看能不能夠把這個轉回去由軍事審判來處理再麻煩部長能夠是我跟委員幾秒鐘我就跟您說說這案子陸海空軍刑法的修正跟這個軍人權益的管理的辦法我們要對決一定理好而且已經呈到行政院去"},{"start":903.792,"end":906.073,"text":"謝謝吳委員陣線的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告院會,我們上午質詢到此為止。本次會議"}]}},{"id":"149719","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149719","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a293832ee976c14e6671804b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a677e467243de167255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"11:24:25 - 11:40:22","影片長度":"00:15:57","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":957,"end_time":"2024-03-12T11:40:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T11:24:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":745,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（11時24分）謝謝主席，有請院長還有國防部部長。"],["主席：請院長及國防部備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：沈委員早安，恭喜你當選立委。"],["沈委員伯洋：早，謝謝。","院長好、部長好。今天我的題目非常簡單，就像這個簡報上面看到的，是要來討論卓越中心。但我也不得不說，「卓越中心」這個名詞對大家來講一定都非常陌生，而我覺得它其實滿適合在總質詢這樣一個場合來跟大家介紹一下到底什麼是卓越中心，因為我認為總質詢非常重要的一點是在於，對於重大的政策和方針進行確認，以及了解未來的方向大概是什麼。所以在這邊也希望能夠跟院長稍微對齊一下，就是其實我一直都認為總質詢很重要的一點是，如果能夠書面解決、能夠書面徵詢的話，也沒有必要在總質詢浪費時間。","第二點就是其實還是很希望官員能夠有更多時間詳細地答復，因為在各國的立法例上，其實官員的答復才是質詢的重點，因為這才可以讓國人知道到底現在即時的、我們對於某件事情的政策到底是什麼，我們再用我們的專業來進行相關的辯論。很可惜的就是，一直以來到現在，我們很多質詢現狀是常常在問一些無關的問題或者是問一些細節，譬如說問部長這是幾年幾月幾號才有辦法完成，或者是幾年幾月幾號說了什麼話，也不給官員答復，我覺得這是我們現在質詢的一個亂象，所以希望等一下院長跟部長能就這些問題儘量回答，因為這是可以跟國人說明的一個非常好的機會。","我今天其實只有兩個問題，第一個問題是跟認知作戰有關，因為畢竟臺灣現在面臨中國不斷的輿論攻擊，我認為認知作戰應該是我們現階段最需要面對的問題。第二個問題就是跟卓越中心有關。我的第一個問題最主要的就是，以國人的角度來講，我們想要釐清到底什麼叫做認知作戰？部長可能也很熟悉，其實以中國的用語來講，這就是所謂的「輿論戰」。","做為一個引子，我稍微整理了一下目前國防部有提到認知作戰的狀況，這裡面很多細節當然不一一敘述，我就隨便講一、兩個以紅色標記的部分，譬如說金門失聯兵獲贈廈門房，部長有提到這可能是一個認知作戰；又或者說網傳金門二膽島又有逃兵，金防部也有提到其中可能也有認知作戰的技倆。其實以一般國人的角度來講，他的第一個反應通常可能就是：到底什麼是認知作戰？也就是說，今天假設國防部出來講認知作戰，它的標準是什麼？以及譬如說是誰發動的、它的手法是什麼，還有我們應對的方式是什麼？所以在這邊想要先就教於部長，可不可以趁這個機會讓大家知道，以往這些狀況當我們說這是一個認知作戰，我們的標準以及認定的方式大概是什麼樣子？謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，錯假訊息是認知作戰當中最明顯的，它主要的發起原因在哪裡？就是為了要打擊我們不管是軍民士氣等等的，但它對時機點也會選擇，譬如說最近有什麼議題，它就趁機擴大，所以認知作戰的涵義就是說，在當時的狀況，它無聲無息地加進來，讓大家認為這是一個普遍的現象，所以這的確是滿嚴重的，會一點一滴地侵染，不要講軍方，民間的心理也會受到很大的影響，所以我們國軍在對認知作戰的防衛方面做得很澈底。","現在基本上因為國家有一個資安防護的應變團隊，我們國防部也是當中的一員，除了配合這個應變團隊的行為舉止以外，我們國防部自己部內的安穩也首當其衝，所以我們簡單講一下，在部內我們平常就注意到怎麼樣防處，讓這些事情不發生，一旦發生了，我們怎麼樣馬上把它給弭平，這是我們克盡職守的方法。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長。剛剛部長有提到滿重要的一點其實是在軍心士氣的打擊，又或者是對輿論的影響。在中國的「三戰」裡面，心戰、輿論戰等等之類是分開的，剛剛部長也有提到資安相關的，我們有資通電，而我們在輿論上的認定可能會有政戰。國人很容易疑惑的一點是，我以上個禮拜的一份業務報告為例，簡報畫面中最後面畫紅線的部分有提到，中共利用官方媒體、側翼組織、在地協力者，所以很明顯官方媒體是滿重要的一個發動單位。我個人認為當然311基地，就是解放軍61716部隊也是非常重要的，但是因為在報告裡面有提到像「側翼」、「在地協力者」這樣的字眼，我想國人第一個反應一定會是說，誰是在地協力者？又或者今天發生了這個國防部指認是認知作戰的案件，這一個案件誰是在地協力者？我們要怎麼知道他是？關於這一點，國防部有沒有一些可能是準則或者是一些說明？"],["邱部長國正：誠如這整個標題「認知作戰」一樣，在地協力者也是一個認知的問題。主要是有任何訊息對我們不利，也造成一些言論對我們不利而對對方有利，我們就初步認為他是在地協力者。至於他到底是或不是，後面檢調單位會去查，我想每一個人要做任何事情臉上不會貼個標籤，所以他都會看機會。因此，我剛剛一開頭就跟委員報告，認知作戰時機是看整個環境目前有什麼動態，他加進去讓我們不知不覺就中了圈套，這就是可怕的地方。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長。因為可以很明顯的感覺到，他們今天不管是用滲透的方式、地面的方式，又或者利用網路大量的假帳號，這一些有時候對我們來講很容易認定是否來自於中國或者解放軍的攻擊，但在地協力者有時候可能會說那是他的言論自由，甚至有時候在放大中國言論的還包含我們自己的立法委員，所以就有很多曖昧不清的狀態。這種曖昧不清的狀態，現階段對我們來講，有時候就會形成國防部跟國人溝通的障礙。因為有時候我們並沒有辦法那麼清楚地告訴大家，誰才是在地協力者，連我們的法律就這一點其實都是不清楚，更不要說我們可能在相關的準則、綱要很難去把這件事情講清楚。有關這件事情，我會認為如果我們能夠在這個時候又或者在未來的幾週，把這件事情更加確認，畢竟現在發生了金門的事件，對我們來講也是一個很大的威脅，如果這些定義能夠釐清，國人對國防部的信心應該能夠加強。","現在我想要再問的是，我們剛剛講的是標準，就是我們的標準到底是什麼、這是誰發動的、形態有什麼，但接下來我還有一些問題，譬如我們去年面臨潛艦國造的一些謠言。我有整理了一些謠言，大家可以看到黑色的部分就是中國介入的部分，藍色的部分是國內的媒體，紅色的部分是還沒有辦法確認的。也就是在整體的網路裡面，我們發現中國所占的聲量已經超過一半了，所以很明顯地有一個中國在操作的痕跡。另外一個是一年義務役，這邊也有一些他們製造的謠言圖，因為是謠言放在國會殿堂實在是很討厭，所以我先趕快換下一張，但是可以看到黑色的部分也占了一定的量體。在這兩個案例我們都覺得這是一個中國有介入的痕跡，包括義務役相關的謠言，還有潛艦國造相關的謠言。國防部在這兩個案件並沒有特別出來告訴大家，這是認知作戰，我知道國防部可能有自己的不管是國家安全的考量、政策的考量。但我們怕的是，如果今天我們即使確定了我們的標準是什麼，有一個準則告訴大家什麼叫做認知作戰，有一些案件我們說是，有一些案件我們卻沒有發言。在這樣的狀況之下，我們要怎樣讓這件事情變得一致？不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法？"],["邱部長國正：要訂標準很困難，就好像我們國軍同仁當中，你講哪一個不是忠貞愛國的？他做出一些不管是洩違密或者不留意造成一些困擾，但我們不能講……當然你違背規定了，這規定是既有的，但違背哪些規定要一條一條列出來，對軍中來講沒問題，我可以列出來；但對民間來講，我要很清楚的界定，怎麼樣就認定你是一個在地協力者，我真的沒有辦法！只能從他發出來的訊息當中，最後不管經過檢調、偵查或者看他後續發展，如果真的影響到、有什麼比較違背常理的這種反應，我們就可以判定他是在地協力者，只有這樣來做了。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。部長提的很好，就在於因為界定上非常困難，所以我們與其把它當作一黑一白，不如把它當作像是一個光譜一樣。譬如哪一些是比較接近中國操作的認知作戰、哪一些比較不接近，如果我們有具體、如同這邊所列出來一些相關可能的標準。譬如不管是時機、可信度、帳號潛伏的程度等等，如果這些標準可以列在某個準則裡面，讓我們知道在這些標準裡面譬如衝破60%了，可能就會告訴大家這個是嚴重的狀況；如果不是的話，我們可能就先隱而不談，先不界定它是一個認知作戰，這或許是可能的方向。","另外，剛剛部長提到非常重要的一點，今天當國軍釋出訊息的時候，面對的人非常多，他有可能是要講給大眾聽的，有可能是要講給老共聽的，有可能是要講給上級聽的，也有可能是要講給國際社會聽的，但現在的狀況是，有時候我們可能都要藉由部長的嘴，把各個必須要溝通的管道藉由部長講出來，所以有時候所謂的認知作戰，不只是我們今天是不是界定它是作戰的標準及讓國人知道而已，我們可能還要知道什麼情況下是講給國人聽的，什麼時候是要講給對方聽的，什麼時候是講給國際社會聽的，如果這個也可以有一個準則讓我們知道，相信在對國人的溝通上，以及對國防部認定的信心上，應該都會更加地提升，這是我簡單的一個建議。"],["邱部長國正：是，我跟委員報告，我剛剛也有講，國防部是國家有關於這方面應變中心的成員，但我們自己部內也有，我們部內要推動的工作剛剛委員已經點出來了，就是很難判別，但我們透過很多管道，不管是調查局也好，軍情局也好，國安局也好，甚至我們本身聯六部門就是負責資通電的單位，我們把一些蒐獲到的狀況都會做分門比較、做分類，所以誠如剛剛委員所講的，分析出來的結果，可以找到哪些是自信的就可以先認定，國防部在這一方面雖然不講說做得很明確，但我們現在有歸類，以後這一類的訊息，我們可以篤定的立刻做反制，我想這也是進一步推動的很重要力量，我們會持續來做這方面的工作。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，我們希望早日能夠把這些標準弄得更清楚。","接下來我想要問的是院長，我覺得這個問題比較尷尬一點，我相信院長對於衛福部等等會比較熟悉。就是有時候解放軍發動的輿論戰攻擊，攻擊的對象不是國防部，譬如他最近攻擊的是海巡，如果他今天攻擊的是衛福部或者農業部，製造大量的謠言，這時候就會造成一個非常尷尬的狀況，因為對方是一個獨裁國家，他的黨政全部是搓在一起，所以雖然是解放軍發動的攻擊，但今天面對攻擊的對象是衛福部，製造跟衛福部相關的謠言，以這樣的狀況來講，是要由國防部出來告訴大家這邊有認知作戰，還是要由衛福部出來跟大家說這邊有一個認知作戰？"],["陳院長建仁：我想如果衛福部這邊有能力分辨，衛福部也可以考量宣布有認知作戰的疑慮，如果國防部這邊透過他們對資訊情報的掌握也能夠知道的話，我想也可以讓衛福部跟行政院一起進行。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為時間關係，我先稍微講一下。以衛福部的角度來講，衛福部對於解放軍的手法，說真的，一定沒有國防部瞭解……"],["陳院長建仁：當然。"],["沈委員伯洋：但是國防部對於譬如像高端等等之類的，一定也不會那麼熟悉，這也是為什麼我一直覺得如果我們沒有一個跨部會的機制，認真去面對這一個所謂的認知作戰，那會變得非常的危險，這也是為什麼今天我在這邊提到的這個標題叫做「卓越中心」。蔡總統在接見波海三國的時候就有提到，其他國家，尤其是北約國家在面對俄羅斯的混合作戰，就是可能有外交的、國防的、民生經濟的攻擊，如果由每個部會單獨面對，就會被各個擊破，所以他們希望有一個卓越中心，大家一起去面對這個混合戰，然後一起分析。","蔡總統那時候提到臺灣應該要有一些單位能夠對接，而臺灣目前來講名稱最像的叫做數發部，然後還有像剛剛部長提到的，偵查工作很多是國安局跟調查局，但其實國防部裡還有一個政戰對這個部分也非常熟悉，但你就會發現我們有點是散在每一個地方，沒有辦法認真去應對，他們有時候一個攻勢可能是3個小時、6個小時，如果我們沒有辦法馬上應對的話，就會形成非常多的困擾。因為在520之前不可能馬上突然成立一個中心，但有沒有可能可以開始開啟這方面的討論，不管是從部長還是院長，畢竟我認為政戰其實還是有非常大的能量，如果能夠針對這件事情討論，我們面對認知作戰的速度應該會變得更快！"],["陳院長建仁：我請部長說明。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，委員這個想法絕對是對的，如果我們國家有這個關於資安應變小組、中心的編制，可以跨各個部會，他有一個主辦單位，但我剛剛也有講，譬如說國防部是當中的一員，但國防部這邊有很多團隊是來支撐這個工作推動的，那委員剛剛講的這個年代就是一個資源共用的年代，環境、資源一定要共用，所以這是極度可以合作的地方。"],["沈委員伯洋：沒問題，謝謝部長、謝謝院長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員伯洋的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第2位吳委員宗憲質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.704093750000002,"end":15.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.99471875,"end":18.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.453468750000003,"end":26.828468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.06846875,"end":30.827843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":30.827843750000003,"end":30.844718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.844718750000002,"end":31.688468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":30.86159375,"end":31.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":38.40471875,"end":45.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":45.96471875,"end":50.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":50.80784375,"end":153.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":154.31909375,"end":207.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.18409375000002,"end":214.36034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.78221875000003,"end":227.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.59034375000002,"end":230.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.25221875000003,"end":237.96846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.23846875,"end":246.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.45659375000002,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.46409375000002,"end":270.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.38534375,"end":279.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.59909375,"end":282.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":282.01221875000005,"end":282.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.02909375,"end":282.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.07534375,"end":283.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":283.10909375,"end":346.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.03596875,"end":346.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.36909375000005,"end":354.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.65909375,"end":356.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.39284375,"end":378.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.28409375,"end":391.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.10471875,"end":393.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":393.77534375000005,"end":451.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":451.96034375000005,"end":475.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":475.55159375000005,"end":477.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":477.98159375000006,"end":480.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":480.22596875000005,"end":486.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":486.48659375000005,"end":502.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":502.87221875000006,"end":538.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.01846875,"end":573.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.37221875,"end":570.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.67596875,"end":570.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.8484687499999,"end":589.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.8459687500001,"end":590.8584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":591.2634687500001,"end":591.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":591.8203437500001,"end":591.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.85409375,"end":591.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":591.9722187500001,"end":625.6884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":625.90784375,"end":652.4184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":652.65471875,"end":683.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.9328437500001,"end":682.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.85659375,"end":709.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.0972187500001,"end":716.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.3915937500001,"end":722.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.95596875,"end":737.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":737.97471875,"end":748.7409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":748.94346875,"end":754.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":755.0859687500001,"end":756.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":756.6384687500001,"end":783.9253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":784.39784375,"end":810.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":809.99721875,"end":818.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":818.1984687500001,"end":818.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":818.2153437500001,"end":823.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":818.2490937500002,"end":818.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":823.76721875,"end":839.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":839.54534375,"end":899.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":899.5022187500001,"end":911.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":911.63534375,"end":933.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":933.9778437500001,"end":935.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":945.6384687500001,"end":949.1822187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":949.5365937500001,"end":953.6709687500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.025,"end":30.565,"text":"謝謝主席,那有請院長還有國防部部長,謝謝。我請陳院長及國防部備選。沈委員早安,恭喜你當選例人。好,早,謝謝。等一下部長。"},{"start":38.424,"end":61.424,"text":"好,院長好、部長好。那今天呢我的題目非常的簡單,就像這個簡報上面看到的,就是在討論這個卓越中心。那但我也不得不說,其實卓越中心這個名詞呢對大家來講一定都非常的陌生。那我覺得它其實蠻適合在總諮詢這樣的一個場合來跟大家介紹一下就是到底是什麼是卓越中心。因為我認為總諮詢非常重要的一點是在於"},{"start":61.769,"end":61.789,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":72.55,"end":93.55,"text":"總質詢很重要的一點是,如果能夠書面解決,能夠書面徵詢的,我們也沒有必要在總質詢浪費時間。那第二點就是呢,其實還是很希望官員能夠有更多的時間,詳細的答覆。因為呢在各國的立法例上,其實官員的答覆才是質詢的重點。因為這才是可以讓國人知道到底現在及時的我們對於這個政策到底是什麼。那我們再用我們的專業來進行相關的一些辯論。"},{"start":95.832,"end":124.346,"text":"那很可惜的就是一直以來我們到現在我們很多的這個質詢的現狀常常問一些無關的問題然後問一些細節比如說問部長這是幾年幾月幾號才有辦法完成或幾年幾月幾號說了什麼話那也不給官員答覆那我覺得這個是一個我們現在質詢的一個亂象所以希望等一下就是就這些問題這個院長跟部長就盡量的回答因為這是一個跟國人可以說明的一個非常好的機會那我今天其實就只有兩個問題"},{"start":125.627,"end":153.648,"text":"第一個問題是跟認知作戰有關因為畢竟台灣現在面臨這個中國不斷輿論的攻擊之下我認為認知作戰應該是我們現階段最需要面臨的問題那第二個問題呢就是跟卓越中心有關所以第一個問題呢最主要的就是說我們想要釐清以國人的角度來講到底什麼叫做認知作戰那部長可能也很熟悉就是其實以這個中國的用語來講就是所謂的輿論戰所以呢從作為一個影子我稍微整理了一下就是"},{"start":154.409,"end":175.782,"text":"目前這個國防部有提到認知作戰的一個狀況,這裡面很多細節當然不一一過去,但我就隨便講一兩個紅色的部分,比如說這個金門的失聯兵或在廈門房這個部長有提到這可能是一個認知作戰,又或者說這個網傳金門二單島又有逃兵,那這邊也有提到有可能有認知作戰的伎倆。"},{"start":177.063,"end":198.291,"text":"那其實以一般國人的角度來講他的第一個反應可能通常就會是到底什麼是認知作戰也就是說我們今天假設國防部出來講認知作戰他的標準是什麼然後以及譬如說是誰發動的他的手法是什麼還有我們應對的方式是什麼所以在這邊想要先就教於部長趁這個機會讓大家知道說以往過去這些狀況我們說這個是一個認知作戰那我們的標準"},{"start":204.853,"end":225.247,"text":"然後以及我們認定的方式大概是什麼樣子?謝謝。我跟委員報告,這個錯角訊息是一個最認知作戰當中最明顯的。它主要發起的原因在哪裡?就為了要打擊我們,不管軍民實現士氣等等。但它的時機點它也會選擇,比如說最近有什麼議題,它會趁機擴大。"},{"start":227.679,"end":256.153,"text":"所以認知作戰的含義就是說在當時的狀況它無聲無息的加進來讓大家認為這是一個普遍的現象所以這的確是蠻嚴重的一點一滴的會影響到不要講說軍方民間的心理也會受到很大影響所以我們在這一方面國軍在對認知作戰防衛方面是做得很徹底那我們現在基本上因為國家有一個治安防護的一個"},{"start":256.721,"end":257.421,"text":"臨時提案委員：沈伯洋"},{"start":283.397,"end":304.669,"text":"謝謝部長那剛剛部長有提到其實蠻重要的一點是在於軍心士氣的一個打擊那又或者我們對於輿論的一個影響那在中國的這個三戰裡面的新戰、輿論戰等等之類是分開的那剛剛部長也有提到資安相關的我們有自動電那我們在這個輿論戰的認定可能會有政戰但我現在會國人很容易疑惑的一點是我這邊用這個這個上個禮拜這個的一個業務報告為例"},{"start":308.442,"end":333.136,"text":"就是這邊在最後面畫紅線的這個部分有提到中共利用了這個官方媒體側翼組織在地協力者所以很明顯官方媒體是蠻重要的一個發動單位那我個人認為當然311基地就是解放軍有61716部隊也是非常重要的但是因為在報告裡面有提到像側翼在地協力者這樣的一個字眼那我想國人第一個反應一定會是說那誰是在地協力者"},{"start":333.556,"end":358.469,"text":"又或者說今天發生的這個國防部指認是一個認知作戰的案件。那今天這個案件誰是在地協力者?我們要怎麼知道他是?那關於這一點國防部有沒有有一些可能準則啊或者一些說明?跟委員報陳福這個整個標題是認知作戰一樣。那在地協力者也是一個認知的問題。我們只要講你有任何訊息對我們反而不利。"},{"start":358.854,"end":377.176,"text":"以造成一些言論對我們不利,對他對方有利,這我就初步就認為他在地協力者。但至於他到底是或不是,那後面不管檢調單位他會去查。我想每一個人他做任何事情,他臉上不會貼了一個標籤。"},{"start":378.536,"end":393.168,"text":"所以他這個看機會所以我一開頭就跟委員報告他這個認知作戰時機是看整個環境目前有什麼動態他加進去讓我們不知不覺的就中到這個圈套這就是可怕的地方"},{"start":394.02,"end":412.402,"text":"謝謝部長,因為這邊就是可以明顯的感覺到就是當然他們今天不管是用滲透的方式、地面的方式又或者說網路大量的假帳號這一些有時候對我們來講很容易認定它是否來自於中國或者解放軍的攻擊但有時候在地協力者有時候他可能會說那是他的言論自由"},{"start":412.802,"end":435.069,"text":"甚至有時候在放大中國言論還包含我們自己的立法委員所以有時候就很多曖昧不清的狀態那這種曖昧不清的狀態現階段對我們來講有時候就會形成國防部跟國人溝通的障礙因為有時候我們並沒有辦法那麼清楚的告訴大家誰才是在地協力者因為我們的法律就這一點其實都是不清楚那更不要講說我們可能在相關的準則、藥缸"},{"start":436.229,"end":437.13,"text":"現在我想要再問的是 我們剛剛講的是標準"},{"start":457.91,"end":458.13,"text":"沈伯洋 沈伯洋"},{"start":473.846,"end":474.347,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":490.274,"end":516.316,"text":"另外一個是一言一物議,這邊也有一些他們製造的謠言圖,因為是謠言放在國會殿堂實在是很討厭,所以我先趕快換下一張。但也可以看到那個黑色的部分也佔了一定的量體。但是在這兩個案例,我們都覺得這是一個中國有介入的痕跡,一物議相關的謠言,然後還有這個潛艦國造相關的謠言。但國防部在這兩個案件並沒有特別出來告訴大家這是認知作戰。"},{"start":517.037,"end":538.782,"text":"那我知道國防部可能有自己的,譬如說不管是國家安全的考量啊、政策的考量,但是我們在怕的事情就是說,如果我們今天即使確定了我們的標準是什麼,我們有一個準則告訴大家什麼叫做認知作戰。但有一些案件我們說是,有些案件我們沒有發言。那在這樣的狀況之下我們要怎樣讓這件事情變得一致,不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法?"},{"start":539.082,"end":566.015,"text":"我跟委員報告啊,要定一個標準都很困難的。就好像講上午國軍同仁當中,你知道哪一個他不是忠誠愛國的,但他又做出一些啊,不管是一些違密啊,或者他不留意,造成一些困擾。但我們不能講,哎,界定,你違背規定了,這規定是既有的。但違背哪些規定,你要一條條列出來,對軍中來講沒問題,我可以列出來。但對民間來講,我要做很清楚的界定。"},{"start":566.488,"end":589.083,"text":"怎麼樣我就認定你是一個在地協力者我真的沒有辦法只能看他從這個發出來的信息當中最後不管經過檢調、偵查或者看他後續發展有什麼影響到我們真的有什麼其他很比較違背常理的這種反應的話那我們就可以慢慢判定他是在地協力者"},{"start":589.935,"end":612.824,"text":"只有這樣來做的。謝謝,那部長你這邊提的很好,就是在於說因為它非常困難嘛,界定上它非常的困難。所以我們與其把它當作一黑一白,不如把它當作像是一個光譜一樣。比如說哪一些是比較接近中國的操作的認知作戰,哪一些比較不接近。如果我們有具體的,比如說這邊有列出來一些相關可能的一些標準,我稍微往後一點。"},{"start":613.684,"end":625.593,"text":"就是呢,譬如說不管是這個時機啦、可信度啦、帳號潛伏的程度啦等等之類的,如果這個可以在某個準則裡面,然後我們知道說在這些標準裡面,譬如說它超過60%了,我們可能就會告訴大家這個是一個嚴重的狀況。"},{"start":628.835,"end":645.485,"text":"那如果不是的話呢我們可能就先隱而不談先不界定他是一個認知作戰這或許是可能的一個方向那另外剛剛部長也提到非常重要的一點就是當今天國軍釋出訊息的時候面對的人非常多他有可能是要講給大眾聽的有可能是要講給老共聽的"},{"start":645.865,"end":667.134,"text":"有可能是要講給上級聽的,也有可能是要講給國際社會聽的,但現在的狀況有時候我們都可能藉由部長的嘴裡去把各個必須要溝通的管道可能都是由部長講出來。所以有時候認知作戰它不只是說我們今天是不是界定它是作戰的標準跟國人知道而已,我們可能還要知道說什麼情況下我們是講給國人聽的。"},{"start":668.374,"end":695.346,"text":"什麼時候是要講給對方聽的?什麼時候是講給國際社會聽的?這個如果也可以有一個準則讓我們知道的話,我相信這個在我們對國人的溝通上以及對國防部認定這件信心上面應該會有更加為的提升。這是我簡單的一個建議。我跟委員也報告,我們初步我剛剛有講我們國防部是一個國家有關於這種應變的中心的一個成員,但我們自己部內也有。"},{"start":695.865,"end":705.719,"text":"我們不能推動工作剛剛委員已經點出來了就很難叛變以外但我們有透過很多管道就不管調查局也好我們軍情局也好國安局也好"},{"start":706.357,"end":706.777,"text":"沈伯洋委員"},{"start":727.964,"end":730.646,"text":"接下來我想要問的是院長,就是說我覺得這個問題是比較尷尬一點,因為我相信院長對衛福部等等會比較熟悉。"},{"start":749.036,"end":776.127,"text":"就是說呢有時候是解放軍發動了輿論戰的攻擊那他攻擊的對象不是國防部他最近攻擊了海巡嘛他今天攻擊的是衛福部或者攻擊的是我們的農業部製造大量的謠言那這時候就造成一個非常尷尬的狀況因為對方是一個獨裁的國家他的黨陣全部是全部是搓在一起的所以他今天雖然是解放軍發動的攻擊但他今天面對他攻擊的對象是衛福部製造跟衛福部相關的謠言那以這樣的狀況來講"},{"start":777.347,"end":800.223,"text":"是因為國防部出來告訴大家這邊有認知作戰還是要衛福部出來來跟大家講說這邊有一個認知作戰我想如果衛福部這邊有能力去分辨的時候呢那衛福部也可以來宣布有這樣的一個認知作戰的疑慮的考量那如果國防部這邊也是透過他們的"},{"start":801.064,"end":804.828,"text":"因為以衛福部的角度來講,衛福部對於解放軍的手法說真的一定是沒有國防不了解。"},{"start":818.283,"end":847.438,"text":"但是說真的國防部對於比如說像高端啊等等之類的一定也不會那麼的熟悉所以這也是為什麼呢就是我一直都覺得如果我們沒有一個跨部會認認真的去面對這一個所謂認知作戰的機制的話會變得非常的危險所以這也是為什麼我在這邊有提到就是我們今天的這個標題叫做這個卓越中心那蔡總統其實在這一個面這個波海這個三國的時候呢就有講到說因為其他的國家尤其是北約的國家"},{"start":847.978,"end":876.327,"text":"他們在面對俄羅斯的混合作戰他可能有外交的可能有國防的可能有民生經濟的攻擊你每一個部會單獨面對就是被各個擊破所以他們希望有一個中心就是卓越中心大家一起去面對這個混合戰然後一起來做分析那蔡總統那時候有提到說台灣應該有一些單位能夠對接那因為台灣目前來講名稱最像的有一個在速發部然後還有像剛剛部長提到的有時候在偵查很多是國安局跟調查局"},{"start":876.727,"end":901.842,"text":"但其實國防部裡面還有一個政戰對這個部分其實也是非常的熟悉那你就會發現我們有點散在每一個地方沒有辦法認真的去應對他們有時候這個一個公事可能是三個小時六個小時如果我們沒有辦法馬上去應對的話會形成非常多的困擾所以我們才想說因為現在在520之前不可能馬上突然成立一個中心但是有沒有可能開始可以開啟這方面的討論不管是從部長還是院長"},{"start":902.842,"end":930.389,"text":"畢竟其實我認為政戰還是有非常大的一個能量,如果能夠針對這些事情來討論的話,我們去面對認知作戰的速度應該可能會變得更快。我跟委員報告,委員這個想法絕對對的,我們問國家有關於這個治安的應變,小組、中心、邊層,他就跨各個部會,他有個主辦單位,但我剛我有講的,譬如說國防部是當初議員,但國防部裡面這邊有很多團隊,"},{"start":931.708,"end":934.31,"text":"謝謝沈委員伯洋的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第二位吳委員中線質詢。"}]}},{"id":"149718","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149718","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a293814da31ea7a16808f04b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a6ceb055e68315fde05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:02:36 - 11:18:36","影片長度":"00:16:00","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":960,"end_time":"2024-03-12T11:18:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T11:02:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":669,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時2分）有請院長跟部長，謝謝。"],["主席：再請陳院長跟內政部，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：張委員好，恭喜你當選立委！"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝院長，院長早安。"],["陳院長建仁：早安。"],["張委員雅琳：首先，在開始之前，剛剛李坤城委員也有提到，就是1歲凱凱的遭虐事件，我看了這個事件之後，我覺得有三個疑點，這三個疑點主要是，為什麼訪視的社工發現孩子明明有狀況了，可是卻沒有積極地去通報主管機關？再來第二個，原保母他本來就已經打算要收養，可是為什麼被拒絕？第三個，家長為什麼沒有選擇攜子入獄？是他不曉得有這個可以申請嗎？所以這有三大疑點，希望院長可以責成相關單位去釐清事實的真相，看看還有沒有什麼制度面我們可以再改善的，還給家屬一個公道。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝委員的關心。這一個部分，確實我們已經請衛福部來加強跟臺北市政府這邊聯繫，然後來瞭解這整個事件的來龍去脈，希望這件事情不要再發生。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：接下來就是進到我今天想要問的第一個問題，就是國家為什麼這幾年要積極的推動永續這件事情，可以請院長回答嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：國家永續的發展（Sustainable Development Goals，SDGs），實際上是每一個國家都很重要，因為它會牽涉到一個國家的政治、經濟、環境、社會等等的發展，還有人權的保護，這都是在整個永續發展、永續目標裡面我們所需要注意的。"],["張委員雅琳：對，剛剛院長有提到包括人權的保障。其實我可以這樣說嗎？就是我們是要保障下一代有一個更好的生活環境，院長跟部長能認同嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：完全認同，這是我們政府應該做的，而且也要鼓勵民間一起來參與。"],["張委員雅琳：兒童遊戲是過去經常被疏忽的一環，兒童其實是透過遊戲來發展他的身心健康，院長您看這個圖，不曉得您知道這是在哪裡嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我不知道，我的孫子都比較大了，所以……"],["張委員雅琳：好，裡面有很多好像可以攀爬、可以玩耍的地方，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對啊，看起來很棒。"],["張委員雅琳：這其實是兒童的職能治療室，國外有非常多的研究都在說明，通過充足的遊戲是可以幫助兒童身心發展，可以延緩一些問題的。所以在去年的時候，我們國家有一個統計的數字，就是疫情之後兒童身心發展遲緩的人數達到新高。所以我想大家應該非常瞭解，就是兒童遊戲真的是非常、非常重要，除了是保障一般兒童，還有包含幫助兒童可以更好地避免身心疾患的問題。","再來，我們更功利地來講，從國家經濟來講，世界經濟論壇其實在2018年開始就倡議，兒童需要透過遊戲去學習未來世代必須具備的關鍵能力，像是解決問題的能力、人際關係能力，還有創造力。再來我想再分享一個故事，我們不要那麼功利，我們溫暖一點，過去我在民間訪談非常多的家長，問他們為什麼會想要來公園玩，其中有一個爸爸講了一個故事讓我覺得非常感動，他說大家都教我們，爸爸一定要陪小孩，可是我真的不知道怎麼陪小孩，但因為有了特色公園，我才可以帶小孩來這邊玩，一起創造我們之間難忘的回憶。像大仁哥（院長有個大仁哥的稱號）非常的溫暖，所以我也希望我們可以帶著這樣子的溫暖一起來推動我們的兒童遊戲權，一起來努力，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好啊！這個很重要。"],["張委員雅琳：好，因為這也是在法規裡面有相關的規定，接下來我們進入到兒少權法第二十四條有講到合適的遊戲空間，而且強調了兒童跟少年。過去我在民間都是非常積極地跟公務員一起努力，我們希望一起把事情做對、做好。","所以我們來看一下，這一張圖上面粉紅色框框是公園數量正在減少的縣市，我們可以看到總數雖然是成長，可是從彰化或是新竹縣市，其實是以1/2到1/3的數量在減少，我也非常清楚這是為了符合國家遊戲場的標準，所以他們做了一些拆除的動作。也非常感謝國土署在去年編列了一個兒童遊戲場環境設施改善計畫10億元的經費。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["張委員雅琳：我想要問一下，我知道第一階段已經申請結束，現在應該還有3億元，我想要知道現在第二階段申請的狀況如何。"],["陳院長建仁：好，這個我是不是請我們內政部長來回答？"],["林部長右昌：好，謝謝。第二階段剩下3億元，大概是在3月12號到3月13號要進行審查會議，如果是獲得委員同意的這些相關案件，我們會儘速通知地方政府來辦理。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那我想問一下……"],["林部長右昌：不過我跟委員報告一件事情，這個案子其實是要非常謝謝院長的支持，這10億元是額外增加的，最主要就是我們要來處理在112年以前有一些不符合規定的兒童遊戲場遊具拆掉之後，地方政府沒有錢把它重新恢復，所以才有這個案子。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯，那我想請教院長跟部長，在下一個階段接下來就是有一些要再做審查的部分，可是因為我們剛剛有講到永續有一件很重要的事情，也要面對氣候變遷。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["張委員雅琳：但是院長也可以看到圖片裡小孩在哪裡？"],["陳院長建仁：很熱！"],["張委員雅琳：對，小孩全部躲在那個有遮蔭的地方。"],["陳院長建仁：溜滑梯不能溜了，太熱了。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯，太熱了！再來看到旁邊那張圖，在同一個時間點，我們的自然素材跟橡膠地墊的溫差達到了12度，所以因為氣候變遷，兒童的遊戲權其實也在受影響。所以我在想，我們在下一個階段裡面，是不是可以因應氣候變遷的關係，再把這些遮蔭設備、自然鋪面、戲水設施做為一個預算核定的標準？"],["陳院長建仁：這個我想應該按照氣候變遷的狀況，還有區域的狀況，來做相關的核定會比較合適。像這裡講的遮蔭設備，或者是自然鋪面以及戲水設施，確實可以做為很好的考量。"],["林部長右昌：我跟院長還有委員做個補充，有關特色公園的指引，遮蔭設備還有包括自然鋪面，設計準則裡面或者一般的設計大概都會把它納入，至於戲水設施，除了必須考慮建置成本之外，其實後續維護跟管理的成本更大，這個會涉及地方政府是不是有財政的能力可以負擔，所以可能不會每一個公園都會設戲水設施。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我再說明一下，這三項不一定全部都需要具備，但是希望整個城市裡面儘量考量溫度的關係，造成兒童遊戲權受損的影響，所以不一定是全部都要。剛剛部長有講到涉及地方的預算，所以下一題就是講預算的問題。現在各縣市政府以六都來說，因為我過去在民間，瞭解六都相對有資源，也知道怎麼做一些維管，可是在非六都的地方，他們的預算非常吃緊，而且相對來說，他們也不知道怎麼維管，所以在這個時候，他們常常就會自己做，拆了之後被罵上報了，他們又覺得很可憐、很無辜。所以我在想我們是不是有可能在中央成立，在下一階段，第二階段結束之後，我們還會有預算持續協助地方？"],["陳院長建仁：好，預算當然會按照實際需要的情形繼續編列，也希望預算編列以後，在執行上能夠很順利地執行，這個我們一定要看，預算編列跟執行要在一起。"],["林部長右昌：這個我來補充一下，其實特色公園有不同的尺度，它也可以在不同的場域，所以經費跟預算也不一定單單只有在內政部。我舉一個簡單的例子來說好了，過去比如說像教育部補助地方改善校園的遊戲場，其實有很多縣市是把特色公園的精神融入。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯。"],["林部長右昌：而且它不花很多錢，可能用統包的方式，後來發現這樣子的做法之下，可以做得多又做得好又做得快，所以現在已經有這些案例跟經驗分享，這是第一個。第二個，有一些比如說是在鄰里公園，有一些是在體育場或者是運動場，有一些可能尺度更大一點，在所謂的都會公園，它都有不同的單位權管跟負責。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯。"],["林部長右昌：如果全部都由中央……最重要的執行其實是在地方政府，我們在中央希望有一個培力的團隊，協助做得比較沒那麼好的地方政府，或者是包括鄉鎮市公所，幫他們做人力的培力。"],["張委員雅琳：好，部長，我瞭解你的意思。預算當然可能會來自於各部會，因為跟它相關的主管機關有差別，但是我希望院長可以全力支持不同的部會都一起推動兒童遊戲權這件事情，在能夠建設的地方我們就儘量建設、支持。再來第二個部分剛剛部長也有提到，因為尺度的差異非常大，地方縣市有些是非六都的地方，他們其實真的很難瞭解，我們是不是可能有一個中央的主管機關負責？因為我們從現在的組織圖上完全沒有人力可以支援，可是現在全臺灣已經超過400個特色公園，而且有2,000將近3,000個公園都在內政部之下，是不是有一個專責的人或專責的單位協助地方做這件事情？"],["陳院長建仁：專責單位的設定就像剛才講到的，因為不同的部會可能也有不同的職責……"],["張委員雅琳：但是內政部有將近3,000個，至少內政部針對這3,000個主責的縣市，是不是可以做中央的專責單位，帶領大家一起成長？不然變成各縣市做各自的。"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告一下，其實並不完全是內政部權管，剛剛提到它可能涉及很多不同的部會，只是大家聽到「公園」兩個字會直覺認為是我們過去的營建署，實際上地方政府在權管的時候，它是分在不同的局處裡面。"],["陳院長建仁：對，所以在地方應該怎麼樣……中央有很重要的一個工作，就是怎麼樣empowerment，讓地方政府知道特色公園的設立應該怎麼樣。未來等到他們的能力提升以後，哪一些單位應該負責，我們可以再試著跟他們溝通。"],["張委員雅琳：不然這樣子好不好？我們是不是有可能回去討論一下，到底該由誰當主責的機關來協助大家？不然像非六都的縣市真的非常辛苦，沒有知識，又沒有太多的資源可以支持他，又沒有預算的狀況之下，到底該怎麼把那邊的孩子顧好，這部分我們是不是可以會後再詳細討論一下？"],["林部長右昌：當然可以。"],["張委員雅琳：再來我也在想我們是不是有可能舉辦一些國際研討會，因為國際上其實都已經在這個領域日新月異了，自然地景設施像剛剛部長說的，可是現在臺灣各縣市承辦人員知不知道可以這樣做？其實他們是不知道的，那我們是不是可以舉辦國際研討會，把這些新的知識帶進來，讓大家一起成長呢？"],["陳院長建仁：這也是empowerment的一部分。"],["張委員雅琳：對，沒錯，可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：對，所以這部分我們可能請相關的民間團體來主辦，或者跟政府一起合辦這樣的國際研討會，找最棒的單位來分享。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝院長。","接下來因為我時間有限，我現在講兒童遊戲權的部分，其實我們過去在講兒童遊戲權的話，好像都沒有涵蓋到12歲到18歲孩子的遊戲權，那他們在哪裡？他們就在手機上面玩，或是在學校讀書，我想院長也非常清楚，我們現在兒少自殺率其實是非常非常高的，節節上升，兒少使用手機的時間跟他的憂鬱程度又是成正比的，大家可能會想說其實他們也不會想要去遊戲場玩。我給大家看一個影片，這是一個桃園的遊戲場，我們可以看到裡面有非常多的青少年做很多的挑戰，所以是真的青少年不來，還是我們沒有提供這個空間？我認為是我們沒有給他足夠的空間。世界經濟論壇也提到，如果有足夠的挑戰性，是可以幫助孩子降低未來事故的發生率的。我作為一個媽媽，我真的非常在乎這件事情，就是每一個孩子都是家長心頭的寶貝，我們如何去創造空間，讓孩子可以學習跟休憩兼具，所以政府是不是可以補助全臺灣每一個縣市至少有一個青少的遊戲空間呢？"],["陳院長建仁：我想青少年的遊戲場，還有另外的實際上也滿重要的就是青少年的運動、活動場所，至於要補助一縣市一青少年遊戲場的這件事情，我們要跟地方政府好好的協商，看看怎麼樣……"],["張委員雅琳：大概什麼時候可以有一個進度呢？"],["陳院長建仁：我想我們還是請內政部來回答一下。"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告一下，我在地方擔任過首長。"],["張委員雅琳：我知道。"],["林部長右昌：我想講的是其實這個事情不管是12歲以下還是12歲到18歲的遊戲場，其實縣市政府就可以做，如果縣市長重視的話，像以前基隆那麼窮，我們自己就可以做。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["林部長右昌：現在我們在中央，當然可以去就全國做一個整體的規劃，我們來研究，再跟院長報告。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。","最後一個問題就是剛剛李坤城委員也有提到道安的問題，兒少事故居高不下，我想問一下，我們也編列了相關的預算去做這件事情，但是有沒有什麼樣的評估機制來評估到底有沒有真正的改善？","最後我想要分享的就是北美國家交通官員協會，他們有提到我們大人知道兒童眼中的街道是什麼樣子的嗎？我們還是以成人本位的方式去改的時候，我們知道兒童視角看到的是什麼嗎？他們做了一個反轉潛望鏡，我很快地讓院長看一下，現在看不到了。"],["陳院長建仁：沒關係，你等一下提供我們相關的資料。"],["主席：謝謝張委員雅琳的質詢，後續有什麼資料要送給行政院，請逕行送交行政院，好嗎？如果要什麼資料就請行政院來答復你。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員雅琳的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","報告院會，內政組之質詢現在已經詢答完畢，休息5分鐘之後，進行外交及國防組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（11時19分）","繼續開會（11時24分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.68721875,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.73221875,"end":24.145343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.21284375,"end":28.094093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.32534375,"end":37.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.37971875,"end":37.932218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.16846875,"end":38.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.18534375,"end":38.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.20221875,"end":38.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.50596875,"end":48.360968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.930343750000006,"end":65.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.37096875,"end":66.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.09221875,"end":73.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.07034375,"end":72.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.45409375,"end":85.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.11471875000001,"end":100.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.36534375000001,"end":111.82784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.61409375000001,"end":103.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.14846875,"end":113.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.35471875,"end":134.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.26721875,"end":144.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.76784375,"end":154.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.24409375000002,"end":148.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.92659375000002,"end":160.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.77784375000002,"end":168.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.35909375,"end":171.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.51034375,"end":174.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.53096875,"end":178.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.21409375000002,"end":178.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.24784375000002,"end":180.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.50096875,"end":182.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.14159375,"end":211.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.41971875000002,"end":222.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.27471875,"end":229.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.52659375000002,"end":242.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.86221875,"end":247.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.67159375000003,"end":263.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.24284375,"end":264.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.66471875,"end":266.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.63909375000003,"end":276.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.10284375000003,"end":269.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.18596875000003,"end":287.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.91846875000005,"end":292.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.36471875,"end":322.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.19159375000004,"end":322.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.22534375000004,"end":340.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.34471875,"end":343.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.55971875,"end":366.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.14284375,"end":364.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.43784375,"end":380.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.76534375,"end":377.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.15284375000005,"end":382.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.70534375,"end":385.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.51534375,"end":384.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.30409375000005,"end":387.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.36284375,"end":396.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.86346875000004,"end":413.95784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.02096875,"end":435.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.54409375,"end":416.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.03471875,"end":435.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.97971875,"end":438.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.62909375000004,"end":448.16346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.39971875000003,"end":465.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.93284375,"end":466.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.33784375000005,"end":475.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.64534375000005,"end":470.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.18034375,"end":483.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.50409375000004,"end":483.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.52909375,"end":485.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.59221875000003,"end":508.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.59284375000004,"end":513.992843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Goal實際上是每一個國家都很重要,因為它會牽涉到一個國家的政治、經濟、環境、社會等等的發展,還有這個人權的這個保護,這都是在這個整個永續發展裡面,永續目標裡面我們所需要注意的。"},{"start":145.247,"end":170.958,"text":"對,剛剛院長有提到就是包含人權的保障,那其實我可以這樣說嗎?就是我們是要保障下一代有一個更好的生活環境,院長跟部長認同嗎?完全認同,而且這也是我們政府應該做的,而且要鼓勵民間一起來參與。那其實兒童遊戲是過去經常被疏忽的一環,那兒童其實是透過遊戲來發展他的身心健康。那不曉得說院長您看這個圖,您知道這是在哪裡嗎?"},{"start":172.54,"end":195.61,"text":"我不知道,我孫子都比較大了。好,這個沒有覺得裡面有很多好像可以攀爬,可以那個玩耍的地方對不對?好,這其實是兒童的職能治療室。那其實有國外的非常多的研究都在說明說其實通過充足的遊戲是可以幫助兒童身心發展,可以延緩一些問題的。那所以呢在去年的時候我們國家有個統計的數字是"},{"start":196.73,"end":210.996,"text":"疫情之後兒童身心發展的遲緩人數達到了新高所以我想大家應該非常了解就是說兒童遊戲真的是非常非常重要除了是保障一般兒童還有包含就是幫助兒童可以有更好的避免這些身心急患的問題"},{"start":213.009,"end":227.255,"text":"再來這個我們更功利的來講從國家經濟來講世界經濟論壇其實在2018年開始就去倡議兒童需要透過遊戲來去學習未來世代必須具備的關鍵能力像是解決問題的能力、人際關係能力還有創造力。"},{"start":230.676,"end":247.03,"text":"再來我想再分享一個故事,我們不要那麼功利,我們溫暖一點。就是過去我在民間,我一起訪談了非常多的家長,你為什麼會想要來公園玩?其中有一個爸爸講了一個故事讓我覺得非常的感動,他就說大家都教我們爸爸一定要陪小孩,可是我真的不知道怎麼陪小孩。"},{"start":247.671,"end":247.971,"text":"好,這個很重要。"},{"start":266.698,"end":291.914,"text":"好,那因為這也是那個在法規裡面也有相關的規定喔那接下來我們就是會進入到因為就是兒少權法第2條裡面有講到是合適的遊戲空間而且強調了這個兒童跟少年喔那過去我在民間其實都是非常積極的跟公務員一起來努力我們希望一起把事情做對做好所以呢我們來看一下齁這一張圖上面那個粉紅色框框的是公務員數量正在減少的現實"},{"start":294.38,"end":321.233,"text":"我們可以看到總數雖然是成長可是呢從彰化或是新竹縣市呢它其實是以二分之一到三分之一的數量在減少那我也非常清楚這是為了符合國家遊戲場的標準所以他們做了一些拆除的動作那也非常感謝國土署在去年編列了一個兒童遊戲場環境設施改善計畫10億元的經費那我想要問一下就是我知道第一階段已經申請結束了現在應該還有3億元那我想要知道說現在第二階段申請的狀況如何"},{"start":325.957,"end":340.152,"text":"第二階段的話,剩下3議員大概是在3月12日到3月13日來進行審查會議。 那如果是獲得委員同意的這些相關的案件,我們會盡速通知地方政府來辦理。"},{"start":342.352,"end":365.809,"text":"我想問一下我跟委員報告一件事情因為這個特殊公園這個案子其實是要非常謝謝院長的支持這10億元是額外增加的這個最主要就是我們要來處理在112年以前因為有一些不符合規定的這些兒童油氣廠的油具拆掉之後地方政府沒有錢把它重新恢復所以才有這個案子"},{"start":366.499,"end":379.898,"text":"沒錯,那我想請教院長跟部長,我們在下一個階段,因為接下來就是有一些要再做審查部分,可是因為我們剛剛有講永續,有一件很重要的事情,也要面對氣候變遷。但是院長也可以看到圖片裡,小孩在哪裡?很熱"},{"start":382.882,"end":397.323,"text":"小孩全部躲在那個躲在那個有遮蔭的地方。對,溜滑梯不能溜了,太熱了。沒錯,太熱了齁。那再來看到旁邊那張圖,在同一個時間點我們的自然素材跟橡膠地鏈的溫差達到了12度喔。對,所以其實"},{"start":397.824,"end":398.064,"text":"﹚張雅琳﹚"},{"start":415.026,"end":415.866,"text":"我跟院長還有跟委員做個補充。"},{"start":439.613,"end":464.893,"text":"這個特殊公園的指引帶遮蔭設備還有包括自然鋪面這大概是在設計準則裡面或者一般的設計大概都會把它納入那最細水設施必須要考慮的除了建制的成本之外其實後續的維護跟管理的成本是更大那這個會涉及地方政府是不是有這個財政的能力可以負擔所以可能不會每一個公園都會設所謂的這個細水的一個設施"},{"start":466.394,"end":482.95,"text":"好,我再說明一下,這三項其實它不一定是全部都需要具備,但是希望整個城市裡面盡量的去考量到這個溫度的關係造成兒童遊戲權受損的影響,所以不一定是全部都要。那剛剛部長有講到就是說涉及到地方預算嘛,所以下一題就是來講預算的問題。"},{"start":484.591,"end":513.706,"text":"那個預算其實是因為像現在各縣市政府以六都來說我過去在民間六都其實相對有資源也知道怎麼去做一些圍管可是其實在非六都的地方他們不管是預算來說非常吃緊而且相對來說他也不知道怎麼去做圍管所以在這個時候他們常常就會自己做然後拆了之後被罵上報了他們又覺得很可憐很無辜所以我在想我們是不是有可能中央來成立在下一階段除了這個第二階段結束之後我們還不會有預算持續的來協助地方"},{"start":515.429,"end":515.569,"text":"我來補充一下"},{"start":535.419,"end":559.551,"text":"其實這個特色公園他可以在他有不同的尺度他也可以在不同的場域所以這個經費跟預算也不一定單單只有在內政部我舉一個簡單的例子來說好了在過去比如說像教育部在補助地方的校園的遊戲場的改善其實就有很多的縣市是把特色公園的精神融入而且他不花很多錢"},{"start":560.487,"end":589.366,"text":"他可能用一個同胞的一個方式後來發現說在這樣子的一個做法之下他可以做得多又做得好又做得快所以有現在已經有這些案例跟經驗來做分享這第一個第二個是因為有一些是比如說是在林里公園有一些是在體育場或者是運動場有一些可能尺度更大一點在所謂的都會公園那他都有不同的這個單位在做權管跟負責那"},{"start":590.746,"end":611.666,"text":"但因為如果全部都是由中央,其實最重要執行是在地方政府。我們在中央是希望有一個賠利的團隊能夠來協助做得比較沒那麼好的地方政府,或者是包括鄉鎮市工作、市公所幫他們來做人力的賠利。"},{"start":613.388,"end":639.77,"text":"我想預算當然會來自於可能各部會因為跟他相關的主管機關有差別但我希望就是院長可以全力的來支持不同的部會都一起來推動兒童遊戲權的這件事情在能夠建設的地方我們就盡量去建設去支持那再來第二個部分剛剛部長也有提到就是說因為尺度的差異非常的大那其實地方縣市有些是非六度的地方他們其實真的很難了解我們是不是有可能有一個中央的主管機關因為我們從現在的這個配置我們的組織圖上面是完全沒有的"},{"start":640.35,"end":640.41,"text":"主席"},{"start":654.488,"end":674.062,"text":"這個專職單位的設定就像剛才講到的,因為它不同的部會可能也有不同的職責。但是內政部有將近三千個,那至少內政部針對這三千個主責的縣市是不是可以來做一個中央的專責單位呢?帶領大家一起來成長嗎?不然就變成是各縣市都各自的嗎?"},{"start":674.602,"end":693.79,"text":"其實跟委員報告一下,其實並不完全是內政部所全管,因為剛剛在提到他可能涉及很多不同的部會,只是大家聽到公園兩個字,會直覺覺得是我們的過去的營建署。不過實際上在地方政府在全管的時候,其實他是分在不同的局處裡面。"},{"start":695.388,"end":715.918,"text":"對,所以在地方應該怎麼樣來,我覺得中央這邊有一個很重要的一個工作,就是怎麼樣empowerment,讓地方政府知道這個特色公園的設立應該怎麼樣。那未來等到他們的能力有提升以後,那一些單位應該要來負責,我們可以再來試著跟他們溝通。"},{"start":717.262,"end":717.582,"text":"當然可以。"},{"start":743.121,"end":764.922,"text":"那再來就是說我也在想說我們是不是有可能舉辦一些國際研討會因為國際的部分其實都已經在這個領域日新月異了自然地警的設施像剛剛部長說的可是現在大家台灣的各縣市城辦他們知不知道這個他可以這樣子做其實是不知道的那我們是不是可以舉辦這個國際研討會來支持把這些新的知識帶進來給大家讓大家一起成長呢"},{"start":765.609,"end":782.199,"text":"這也是Empowerment的一部分,對,所以這個部分我們可能請相關的民間團體來主辦或者是跟政府一起合辦這樣的一個國際研討會,找最棒的單位來分享。"},{"start":783.764,"end":798.833,"text":"謝謝,謝謝院長。接下來,因為我時間有限,我先來講這個兒童遊戲權的部分。其實我們過去在講兒童遊戲權的話,我們好像都沒有講到,我們都沒有蓋到12歲到18歲孩子的遊戲權。那他們在哪裡?他們就在手機上面玩,或是在學校讀書。"},{"start":799.773,"end":817.203,"text":"那我想院長也非常清楚我們現在兒少自殺率其實是非常非常高的節節上升那他使用手機的時間跟他憂鬱程度就是成正比的那大家可能會想說哎呀其實他們也不會想要去那個遊戲場玩那我給大家看一個影片這是一個桃園的遊戲場我們可以看到裡面有非常多的青少年"},{"start":822.106,"end":825.691,"text":"我認為是我們沒有給他足夠的空間。那在世界經濟論壇他也提到就是說我們如果有足夠的挑戰性是可以幫助孩子降低未來事故的發生率。"},{"start":838.166,"end":838.246,"text":"﹚張雅琳﹚"},{"start":855.238,"end":884.128,"text":"我想青少年遊戲的遊戲場還有另外的實際上也蠻重要的就是青少年的這個運動的一些活動場所其實都還蠻重要的那至於要補助一縣市一青少年遊戲場的這件事情我們得要跟在地方政府來好好的協商看看什麼樣﹖大概什麼時候可以有一個進度呢我想我們還是請內政部來回答一下"},{"start":884.728,"end":903.082,"text":"委員 我跟你報告一下,我在地方擔任國首長。 我想講的是其實這個事情不管是12歲以下還是12歲到18歲的這個遊戲場,其實縣市政府其實就可以做。 這個縣市長重視的話,像以前基隆那麼窮,我們自己就可以做。"},{"start":903.682,"end":912.432,"text":"但中央我想現在我們在中央那當然可以去就整個全國去把它做一個整體的一個規劃我們來研究再跟院長做報告"},{"start":916.724,"end":939.717,"text":"那再來最後一個問題就是說剛剛李昆城委員有提到道安的問題齁這兒少事故居安不下那居高不下那我想問一下就是我們也責成了相關的預算去做這件事情但是我們有沒有什麼樣的評估機制來評估到底有沒有真正的改善那最後我想分享一個就是北美交通安全官員協會他們有提到就是說我們大人知道兒童"},{"start":959.049,"end":959.776,"text":"謝謝專委員雅琳的諮詢。"}]}},{"id":"149717","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149717","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a29389ed4293397af40d704b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a67c25206b5150c49f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:46:21 - 11:02:32","影片長度":"00:16:11","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":971,"end_time":"2024-03-12T11:02:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T10:46:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":600,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時46分）謝謝院長，我們請陳院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：李委員早，恭喜你當選。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝，謝謝院長。昨天看到一個令人感到非常難過而且憤怒的新聞，就是有保母涉嫌把兒童虐待致死的案件，相信院長也看到這個新聞了。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我看了很難過。"],["李委員坤城：我相信大家看了後都非常難過，尤其我們自己有小孩，看到這個新聞會非常難過。這次的問題在於這個小孩是高風險家庭的小孩，他是透過新北市社會局跟臺北市社會局轉介到兒童福利聯盟，兒童福利聯盟也去找了具有合格居家保母證書的保母來照顧這個小孩，但從去年9月送交劉姓保母照顧，到去年12月24日兒童被虐致死，4個月的時間就死亡了，到底這個環節出現了什麼問題？"],["陳院長建仁：在這個環節的部分，就我們目前所掌握的，確實對於這些兒童我們需要定期去訪視，以便瞭解他的情況，就我們所瞭解對他的訪視情形，雖然有去訪視，可是並沒有發現問題所在，所以衛福部實際上已經因為這個重大事件的發生希望能夠更瞭解地方政府所做的情況，並且也規定了訪視的頻率要增加，而且訪視人員的訪視能力也要加強。"],["李委員坤城：這個訪視包含臺北市社會局的訪視，還有兒福聯盟社工的訪視，我看新聞報導是說，臺北市的訪視到目前為止只有1次，兒福聯盟的訪視本來應該1個月1次，應該要有4次，但是到12月的那次因為保母說有其他問題就不讓他看，所以最後一次沒有看到，後來在12月24日就發生這個悲劇了。剛剛院長有提到訪視頻率要增加，我認為當社工去做訪視的時候，如果能夠多瞭解一下兒童的身體跟心理的狀態，或許在12月之前就能夠發現這個問題所在。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["李委員坤城：我自己也認為有三個問題要請教院長，第一個，我們要先檢討高風險家庭兒童轉介的安置機制，因為他是高風險家庭，一般將孩子送到居家保母處之後還可以定期去看看狀況、瞭解保母的情況是怎麼樣，但這個是屬於高風險家庭，父母都不在，有的跑路，有的在監獄裡面，沒辦法去看，就完全只能託給兒福聯盟及他們的社工去訪視，這是第一個問題。","第二個是老問題了，社工缺人、低薪、流動率高，而且在訪視的時候並沒有公權力，也就是說如果保母不讓他去看，他也沒辦法看，頂多做個登記，作為下次要不要續聘該保母的機制而已，他沒有公權力。","第三個，居家保母的審核機制我也認為要加強，因為據報導，有一位吳姓主播本來也有跟這個劉姓保母接觸，他也到保母家裡面去看過，他發現整個居家的環境並不適合照顧他的小孩，所以他們最後就沒有讓這個保母接這個案子。但是我不知道為什麼兒福聯盟他們去看了之後，認為這個劉姓保母的家裡是適合照顧這一個幼兒的，所以對於居家保母的審核機制，我認為也是要加強。"],["陳院長建仁：委員這裡所提到的這三個問題，確實是有需要加強的地方。對於社工缺人、低薪、流動率高這個問題，我要跟委員報告，實際上我們也補助了各縣市政府蠻多的社工人員，但是這些人員在訓練上是有需要再加強的地方，這部分我們會請衛福部，因為他們今天沒有來……"],["李委員坤城：我知道。"],["陳院長建仁：我請他們來加強這一方面，關於社工人員能力的加強跟人數的充裕。至於高風險家庭的安置機制跟保母的審核，我也會請他們再做更多的審視並改進。"],["李委員坤城：院長，社工他們是很辛苦啦！"],["陳院長建仁：對，我瞭解。"],["李委員坤城：他們的壓力也很大，所以我希望在錢的部分、預算的部分能夠給予協助的再給予協助啦！我昨天看到這個新聞，我真的是非常難過……"],["陳院長建仁：我也很痛心、難過，而且甚至也很憤怒，怎麼可以這樣對待小孩。"],["李委員坤城：我也希望在檢察官或是最後在法院審判階段的時候，不要再輕輕放過了，因為每次這種兒童虐死案的事情引起風波，但新聞一過之後大家就不重視了，然後最後在量刑這方面都沒有符合社會對於正義的期待。"],["陳院長建仁：此案檢察官現在已經在偵辦當中了，他所涉及的罪嫌最高可以處10年以上的有期徒刑，但是我們希望法院在判案的時候也要符合您講的社會的期待，就好像詐騙集團有些時候審判出來的刑度都比較低。"],["李委員坤城：好。剛剛院長也提到詐騙集團，剛好我有兩個選舉的政見要請教一下院長，第一個是加重詐騙的刑度；第二個就是有關於推動交通安全基本法，這是我在選舉的時候提出的政見，所以今天利用這個寶貴的時間來請教院長。我們行政院，老實講，在關於詐騙這方面投入的人力、物力跟防止詐騙的決心，甚至也完成了打詐五法，但是老實講，我們自己在選舉的時候，民眾嫌最多的地方就是打詐，就認為說政府有做，但是民間的感受跟政府做的期待是有很大的落差的，就是說「你做甲流汗，去予人嫌甲流瀾」，我們在基層大概就是得到這種反應。","給院長跟部長看幾個資料，按照107年到111年警政署的刑事案件統計，詐欺是成長的，只有詐欺是成長26%，其他的什麼毒品、竊盜、酒駕都有下降，可是詐欺是成長的。然後詐騙的經濟規模，我用財產的損失還有攔阻的金額，把它算起來當作是詐騙的經濟規模，從2021年的81.5億至2023年達到178.5億，也就是說詐騙的總金額其實是提高的，雖然你攔阻的部分也有增加，但是總的金額是增加的。所以，民眾的不滿就在於說詐欺實在是非常的氾濫，而且法官也輕判，剛剛院長有提到。","法官輕判，我舉幾個案子為例，第一個是洗錢90億、涉案20人，結果態度良好就緩刑；其次，查到詐騙集團還有賭博網站的洗錢水房，30人以3萬到20萬元交保，很輕；還有，警方的M化車蒐證無證據能力，最後高院更一審判詐騙集團4人無罪定讞，這個都跟人民的期待有非常大的落差。根據法務部的統計，詐欺判刑在3年以上只占0.5%，從106年到110年這5年當中總共判刑3年以上的只有355人，這是3年以上，3年以上其實也是算輕的，但是竟然只有355人，更多的是在6個月以下。所以我自己在這個會期也提出了一個打詐專法，已經付委審查了，那我是認為現在的詐騙是一個有組織性的科技、金融、智慧化跟結合暴力集團的新型態犯罪手段，所以把這個刑責加重，然後也強化電信業者還有數位中介服務提供者防止詐騙的義務跟責任，還有最後就是納入量刑的準則，不要說有的判得很輕，有的無罪，判得很重的很少。所以我想請教一下院長跟部長，現在關於打詐應該是會用打詐專法的方式來杜絕詐欺，我想請問一下目前的進度如何？"],["陳院長建仁：好，現在對於打詐專法正在請各部會來積極研擬專法的內容，那這個部分會健全電信、金融機構還有數位精進的管理等等，對這個部分我們會來提高詐欺的刑責，都會用打詐專法來做，我們也希望能夠儘快的完成並送到大院來做審議。"],["李委員坤城：有辦法在520之前送來我們立法院嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我來請他們加緊看看，不過這整件事情是羅秉成政委在統籌，那我也要請教他最近跨部會努力的成果。"],["李委員坤城：我知道你們最近有密集在開會。"],["陳院長建仁：請部長來說明一下。"],["李委員坤城：部長，這個主責單位應該是內政部嘛！"],["林部長右昌：我們是統籌，因為這部分會涉及包括金管會、NCC、數發部還有法務部等相關單位，所以院是交由內政部來領銜提案，不過這涉及相關機關。我跟委員報告最新的進度，在3月7號的時候各部會所提的相關草案已經回到內政部，我們正在進行彙整。接下來在3月下旬還有4月下旬會由院這邊密集召開相關的會議來進行進一步的討論，院裡面的指示是希望以在這個會期提交立法院為目標，那我們在努力。"],["李委員坤城：院長，剛剛聽完部長的說明，如果按照這個進度來講的話，那表示政府第一個有這個決心。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["李委員坤城：第二個就是按照這個進度的話，能不能至少在520之前？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們來努力，全力以赴看看。"],["李委員坤城：把這個打詐專法送到立法院來做審查，好不好？"],["林部長右昌：是，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：我們全力以赴。"],["李委員坤城：這是給你們的期許，那至少表示一個決心，就是我們要做了！另外有一個也跟內政部相關的問題，就是我們在之前有通過了道路交通安全基本法，現在行政院也把行人交通安全設施條例送到立法院來做審查了。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["李委員坤城：我老實講，在我們選舉的過程當中有很多的民怨是關於人行道都沒辦法整治，沒有一條安全的路讓我可以從捷運站走到某一個定點，其實捷運站應該已經算是一個重要的交通設施，它附近周圍人行道的整治或是有關於行人安全的措施應該是做得最好，但是我發現其實我們還有很多需要加強的地方。按照目前我所拿到的資料，在114年以前，就是從111年到114年至少我們有投入了300億，包含前瞻預算也在裡面，有做人行道的改善嘛！是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，目前有在做，那未來在這個行人交通安全設施條例通過之後，我們的預算有多少呢？"],["陳院長建仁：好，這個部分我請部長來回應。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員，因為院長非常的重視，所以我們有一個永續提升人行安全的計畫，這個是有4年400億，我們內政部的部分是有260億，會分4年來編列，分別是20億、100億、140億跟140億。我們還特別針對兩個部分全額補助，這跟過去比較不一樣，一個是交通部盤整後提供易肇事路口的清單，那它可以在113年底以前完工的話，這個是全額補助；另外是在全民參與街道改善決策方案平台的全國前10名者，這一部分也全額補助。"],["李委員坤城：我按照你們關於通過這個草案的新聞稿，我認為你們是有提到重點，但是做又是另外一回事。你們說現在既有道路上面的電信箱、郵筒、消防栓這些公共設施，老實講，我們每次在會勘的時候，也都是遇到這些公共設施啊！這是台電的、這個是中華電信的、這是哪裡的，都是公家機關的耶！不一定是民間堆放一些物品在人行道或是騎樓，很多都是屬於公家機關，這以後要怎麼處理？"],["林部長右昌：我跟委員報告一下，中央徒法不足以自行，地方政府的執行力非常重要，現在地方政府基本上都有一個五大管線的整合平臺，就是做得細不細膩的問題，這是第一點；第二個，過去的確是東做一段、西做一段，雖然我們看起來全國總體改善的數據，或者每一個縣市改善的數據好像看起來很多，但是實際上它並不是串聯的，我們在這一次計畫裡面的KPI會跟過去不一樣，我們會把所謂的連續性的人行道的長度，或者是連續性的開放空間或者是廣場，人可以安全行走空間的面積、連續性的面積，這個會定為未來的一個KPI，跟過去比較不一樣。"],["李委員坤城：你們有四個主要的計畫，第一個，路口設施不良的改善；第二個，都市計畫道路一定寬度的人行道要改設；第三就是剛才部長所講的行人友善區；第四，指定路段統一重修，這個就需要錢，我是認為4年400億已經不夠用，就像很多前瞻計畫，我們現在要爭取停車場，結果發現停車場的預算已經沒有了，這個我認為預算也是不夠。","我自己是新北市的立委，你也知道新北市幅員廣大，都市計畫很多的計畫道路，如果要做像剛剛部長所提到的四大計畫的話，以經費來講一定是不夠的，所以我自己建議是不是能夠對於各縣市政府自籌的負擔款，能夠排除按照地方財政狀況分級表自籌款的比例，給予彈性、全免或是降低比例？這個部分請院長來考量一下好不好？"],["主席：謝謝李委員坤城……"],["陳院長建仁：我們這400億的經費會跟地方政府一起來努力的推動，我也呼籲地方政府一定要加強。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！這是中央跟地方政府一起來推動，這也是很多民間的團體非常期待的，既然已經送到立法院，我們希望我們自己也是加快這個速度來做審查，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李委員坤城的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來第9號沈伯洋委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員沈伯洋書面質詢：","案由：本院沈伯洋委員，為因應中國可能對台灣進行低強度作戰，需有法源基礎制定反制措施，敬請行政院進行反恐法或類似武裝衝突法之規範研議。","說明：","一、近來，中國不斷以包含海警船、民間三無船騷擾等灰色地帶作戰模式侵蝕台灣主權，甚至未來可能升高局勢進入低強度作戰。這類以準軍事手段但現場又無軍人的騷擾模式是中國一種逃避國際武裝衝突法的挑釁策略。","二、因此，為反制中國上述低強度作戰等進逼手段，台灣應針對未來可能之情況進行預想並盤點反制之方法。然本席認為前述應對及反制手段應有法源基礎，因此本席敬請行政院於一個月內研議反恐法或類似武裝衝突法之規範，提交相關研究與評估報告。","案由：本院沈伯洋委員，因曾針對我國對灰色地帶作戰反制措施應建立更高法源基礎為質詢，敬請行政院研議相關法律之制定方向。","說明：","一、近年來，中國對我國多以經濟、軍事等方面之手段對我國政府施壓及形成脅迫之情事，甚或將本是由中央政府主管、談判之事項，透過給予特定縣市特殊待遇或無視中央進而與地方民意代表談判來形成新的框架，藐視我國政府地位及主權。","二、為反制中國上述手段，我國應針對未來可能之情況進行預想，並盤點我國得應對及反制之方法。然本席認為前述應對及反制手段應有法源基礎之規定，且我國政府亦應及早向人民說明，因此本席敬請行政院於一個月內研議面對中國灰色地帶作戰反制措施之法源基礎方向。","案由：本院沈伯洋委員，因中國籍配偶乃為台灣外國配偶之最大族群，為了解縮短中國籍配偶取得中華民國身分證需要之期間對我國社會之影響，特向行政院提出質詢。","說明：","一、我國近期有熱烈討論是否應將中國籍配偶得申請取得中華民國身分證需要期間之相關規定，修訂為比照其他外國配偶，將最短期間從六年縮短至四年。中國籍配偶為我國外國配偶之最大族群，然考量中國對我國併吞之野心及雙方歷史上之衝突，本席認為是否應為前述之修法，應經審慎評估及社會討論。","二、承上所述，本席提出書面質詢，敬請貴院於一個月內提出回覆：(一)如縮短中國籍配偶得申請取得中華民國身分證需要最短期間為四年，請評估每年人數增長之幅度，及後續各面向影響之評估。(二)請提供近三年取得中華民國身分證之中國籍配偶其戶籍縣市之分佈。"],["主席：接下來我們請登記第10號張委員雅琳質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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"},{"start":39.86,"end":65.968,"text":"我相信大家看了都非常難過那尤其我們自己有小孩看到這個新聞會非常難過就是說這個問題就在於說這個小孩他是在一個高風險家庭的一個家庭然後他透過這一個新北市社會局跟台北市社會局轉介到這一個兒童福利聯盟那兒童福利聯盟呢他也去找了這一個具有這個合格的居家保母證書的人的保母他來這個照顧這個小孩"},{"start":66.564,"end":91.656,"text":"但是從這個去年的9月送到這個流行保姆到去年的12月24號這個兒童被被虐致死死亡了。這個月的時間到底這個環節出現了什麼問題?在這個環節就我們目前所掌握的確實在對於這一些兒童我們是需要有定期去訪視了解他的情況。"},{"start":92.401,"end":120.276,"text":"那就我們所了解呢﹖他這個訪視的這個情形呢﹖雖然有趣可是並沒有發現問題所在所以我們衛福部呢﹖實際上在就已經因為這個重大事件的發生希望能夠來了解更了解這個地方政府所做的這一些情況那並且呢也規定了這個訪視的頻率有要增加而且的訪視人員的這個調訪視的能力也要加強"},{"start":121.897,"end":141.595,"text":"這個訪試包含這個臺北市社會局的訪試然後還有兒福聯盟社工的訪試那我看一下這個新聞的報導就是說這個臺北市的訪試到目前為止只有一次那這個兒福聯盟的訪試本來應該一個月一次應該有4次但是到12月的時候那一次因為保姆說有其他問題就不讓他看"},{"start":142.216,"end":164.916,"text":"在最後一次沒有看到,但是最後一次12月4日就發生這個悲劇了。 那所以說剛剛院長提到說這個訪視的頻率要增加。 那當然就是說我認為就是說當這個社工去做訪視的時候那如果能夠多了解一下這個孩子的一個兒童的身體跟心理的狀態或許在12月之前"},{"start":165.603,"end":169.406,"text":"就能夠發現這個問題所在。那我自己也認為說有三個問題也請教一下院長。就是說"},{"start":172.796,"end":195.937,"text":"第一個我們要先檢討高風險家庭兒童轉介的安置的機制因為他是高風險家庭他跟一般的比如說我們送給保母居家保母我們還可以定期去看我們可以瞭解一下說保母的情況是怎麼樣但是這個是屬於高風險家庭父母都不在有跑路有的在監獄裡面沒辦法看就完全只能託給這個兒福聯盟還有他們的這個社工去造勢去訪視這是第一個問題"},{"start":196.874,"end":215.059,"text":"第二個就是說這是老問題的社工缺人低薪流動率高而且在訪視的時候呢他並沒有公權力就是說如果保姆不讓他去看他也沒辦法看他頂多就是說做個這一個登記這樣子作為下次要不要再續聘這個保姆的一個機制而已他沒有公權力"},{"start":216.403,"end":242.536,"text":"第三、居家保姆的審核機制我也認為要加強。據報導有一位無姓主播他們本來也有跟這個流性保姆有接觸,他也到他家裡面去看過。發現說整個這個居家的環境並不適合照顧他的小孩,所以他們就最後沒有讓他接這個案子。但是我不知道為什麼兒福聯盟他們去看了之後,發現說這個流性保姆的家裡是適合照顧這個幼兒的。"},{"start":243.792,"end":261.301,"text":"所以我認為說對於這個居家保姆的審核機制我認為也是要加強啦委員這裡所提到的這三個機制確實是三個問題確實是需要有加強的地方那對於社工缺人低薪流動率高這個問題我要跟委員報告事實上我們也"},{"start":261.769,"end":262.23,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":279.531,"end":295.486,"text":"議員長"},{"start":295.586,"end":297.908,"text":"我也很痛心,然後難過,而且對政治也很憤怒,說怎麼可以這樣對待小孩。"},{"start":318.943,"end":348.378,"text":"我也希望說這個檢察官或是最後在法院在這個階段的時候不要再輕輕放過了每次每次這種兒童虐死案事情的風波新聞一過之後大家就不重視了然後最後在這個量刑這方面都沒有符合社會的期待對於正義的期待這檢察官現在已經在偵辦當中了那他所設的這個罪嫌最高是可以處10年以上的有期徒刑但是我們希望法院在判案的時候"},{"start":348.818,"end":358.702,"text":"院長提到這個詐騙集團,剛好有兩個選舉證件要請教一下院長。第一個是加重詐騙的行動,第二個是有關於推動交通安全基本法。這是我在選舉的時候,這是我的證件,所以今天利用這個寶貴的時間來請教這個院長。"},{"start":376.311,"end":400.629,"text":"那這個齁,我們行政院老實講齁,在關於這個詐騙這方面,投入的人力啦、物力啦,防止這個詐騙的決心,那甚至這個完成打詐無法。但是老實講,我們自己在選舉的時候,大家最,就是最嫌罪多的地方,就是打詐。就認為說政府有做,但是民間的感受跟政府做的這個期待是有很大的落差的。"},{"start":401.91,"end":405.253,"text":"警政署的刑事案件統計,詐欺,詐欺成長,只有詐欺是成長26%,其他毒品切到酒架都有下降,詐欺是成長的。"},{"start":426.849,"end":455.447,"text":"然後呢,詐騙的這個經濟規模我用這個財產的損失還有這個攔阻的金額把它算起來當作一個是一個詐騙的經濟規模從2021年的81.5億到2023年呢,到了178.5億就是說這個詐騙的總金額其實是提高的雖然你攔阻有增加,但是總的金額是增加的所以民眾不滿呢,就在於說這個詐欺這個時代是非常的氾濫"},{"start":456.331,"end":476.611,"text":"而且法官的輕判,剛剛有提到,法官輕判有舉幾個案子,洗錢90億涉案20人,結果態度良好就緩刑。查詐騙集團還有賭博網站的洗錢水房,30人以3萬到20萬元交保,很輕。"},{"start":478.092,"end":493.24,"text":"警方的N化車收證沒有證據能力,然後最後是詐騙集團這四個人無罪定驗,這個都跟人民期待有非常大的落差。然後法務部的統計,詐欺判刑在3年以上只佔0.5%,從106年到110年,這5年總共判刑3年以上,"},{"start":500.584,"end":500.664,"text":"主席"},{"start":519.861,"end":534.27,"text":"而這個現在的詐騙呢是一個有組織性的科技金融智慧化跟結合暴力集團的一個新型態的犯罪的手段那所以這個把這個刑責加重然後也強化電信業者還有數位仲介服務提供者的這個"},{"start":535.513,"end":558.139,"text":"防止詐騙的義務跟責任還有最後就是納入這個量刑的準則不要說有的判得很輕有的無罪那是判得很重了很少所以我想請教一下院長跟部長現在關於這個打詐專法那應該是有這個會用打詐專法的方式來杜絕這個詐欺我想請問一下目前進度如何"},{"start":558.456,"end":580.919,"text":"好,現在打造裝潢正在請各部會來積極嚴禮裝潢的這個內容。那這一個部分會健全這個電信金融機構還有數位經濟的管理等等。那這一個部分我們會來提高這個詐欺的這個行者都會用打造裝潢來做。我們也希望能夠盡快的來完成送到大院來做審議。"},{"start":582.04,"end":585.782,"text":"有辦法在520之前送來我們立法院嗎?"},{"start":585.782,"end":601.368,"text":"我來請他們加緊看看,不過我這一件整件事情是羅秉成政委在統籌,那我也要請教他最近花博會這一個努力的程度。我知道你們最近有密集在開會,那部長?"},{"start":603.9,"end":622.839,"text":"府長,這個組織單位應該是內政部嗎?我們是統籌,因為這部分會涉及包括金管會、NCC書發部還有法務部相關的一個單位,所以是由院士交由內政部來提案領銜,不過這涉及相關機關。那我跟委員報告最新的進度是3月7號的時候,"},{"start":624.059,"end":642.053,"text":"各部會所提的相關的一個草案已經回到內政部我們在進行會診那接下來在3月的下旬還有4月的下旬會由院這邊來密集召開相關的一個會議來進行進一步的一個討論那院裡面的一個指示是希望用以這個會期"},{"start":644.115,"end":645.216,"text":"來提交立法院為目標。"},{"start":665.451,"end":683.259,"text":"這是給你們期許,至少表示一個決心,我們要做了。另外也跟內政部有相關的就是說,我們在之前有通過道路交通安全基本法,現在行政院也把行人交通安全設施條例也送到立法院來做審查了。"},{"start":684.019,"end":701.932,"text":"然後呢我老實講齁這個在我們在這個選舉的過程當中齁就很多的這個民怨也關於就是說齁這個齁呃有關於人行道齁這個都沒辦法整治那沒有一條齁這個安全的路齁可以我可以從這個比如說從捷運站走到某一個定點齁"},{"start":703.405,"end":721.814,"text":"其實這個捷運站應該已經算是一個重要的交通設施。它附近周圍的這個交通的這個人行道的整治或是關於這個行人安全的這個措施應該是做得最好。但是我發現其實我們還有很多需要加強的地方。那按照這個目前我所拿到的資料是說"},{"start":723.234,"end":724.095,"text":"好,這一個部分我請部長來回應。"},{"start":749.47,"end":762.343,"text":"謝謝委員因為院長非常的重視所以我們有一個永續提升人情安全的一個計畫所以這個是有4年400億那內政部的部分我們是有260億那會分4年來編列分別是20、100、140跟140那我們特別還針對兩個部分是全額補助的"},{"start":773.436,"end":778.803,"text":"一、交通部盤整提供義照式路口清單一、全民參與街道改善決策平台在全國前實名者一、"},{"start":791.285,"end":812.735,"text":"這個我按照你們的這個通過的草案這個新聞稿上面我是認為就是說你們是有提到重點但是最後是另外一回事所以你們說現在既有道路上面這個電信箱、油桶、消防栓這些公共設施老實講我們每次在會館的時候也都是遇到這些公共設施這是台電的、這個是中華電信的、這是哪裡的"},{"start":815.896,"end":816.337,"text":"我跟委員報告一下"},{"start":828.632,"end":852.914,"text":"中央圖法不足以執行,地方政府的執行力非常重要。現在地方政府基本上都有一個管線整合的平台,那就是做得細不細膩的問題,這是第一點。第二個,過去的確是東做一段西做一段,雖然我們看起來全國的總體改善的數據,或者每一個縣市改善的數據,"},{"start":853.575,"end":853.695,"text":"﹚主席"},{"start":880.918,"end":899.851,"text":"這個齁你們有四個主要的計畫啦第一個路口設施不良的改善第二個就是說都市計畫道路一定寬度的人行道要改設然後第三呢就是剛剛部長所講的行人友善區然後第四呢指定路段統一重修齁那這個都需要錢齁我是認為啦四年四百億齁已經不夠用就像很多這個"},{"start":900.892,"end":901.032,"text":"﹚李坤"},{"start":941.219,"end":941.98,"text":"謝謝李委員：坤城"},{"start":961.694,"end":971.015,"text":"謝謝李委員：坤城的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來第9號沈伯陽委員之質詢已書面提出。請行政院書面答覆並列入"}]}},{"id":"149716","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149716","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a2938c725d0cdc6d7b31004b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a604bd65743de01b585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:20:31 - 10:36:26","影片長度":"00:15:55","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":955,"end_time":"2024-03-12T10:36:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T10:20:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":541,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時20分）謝謝韓院長，麻煩請陳院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：馬委員好，恭喜你當選連任。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝，謝謝院長。院長，剛剛聽到非常多的委員在這裡對我們所有不管是內政、兩岸提問，其實現在有很多、很多的問題都值得探討，也非常感謝院長這段時間在各個政策上面的努力，我想所有的行政同仁也都有付出，不過也有很多的缺失，我覺得可能要說清楚，甚至要很負責任的對全民做一些表態，因為這是態度問題。","其實我對日本的一個畫面印象非常深刻，這已經是很多年前了，雖然只有一個，可是我記得當時是一排的日本相關人員，他們把櫻花開放的日期提早宣布，只是因為這樣的錯誤，他們馬上鞠躬道歉，因為他們覺得對人民甚至是觀光客造成影響。","就這個事件來看，我們也看到非常多，整個行政過程中，很多人都有行政經驗，可是難免有缺失，比如說近期發生的雞蛋事件、蘇丹紅事件，還有包括像數位身分證、像桃機造成很多旅客的不便，在起降造成很多混亂，這些在在顯示，不管政策、各方面也好，都存在疏失。可是我們的政府，尤其現在的執政黨卻不願意道歉，這是我覺得非常……包括剛剛謝龍介議員詢問時，院長只說是溝通不夠好，溝通不夠好其實也是政策的不周延，我們不要現在就篤定的說它是錯的，可是你的不周延讓我們人民浪費很多納稅錢，因為政府掌握了所有的政策決定、法規、罰則，還有人民納稅錢，當你們在運用這些時，如果做了錯誤判斷、花錯了錢，甚至造成人民損害，照理說政府都應該道歉不是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：如果政府有做錯就要道歉，這是確實，但是如果像是桃機……"],["馬委員文君：所以剛剛我念的這些，院長你認為都沒有錯嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：關於桃機，我們相關單位都已經有針對桃園機場的事件道歉，然後雞蛋的事情是「Lin bay好油」的錯假消息，我們不會為錯假消息來……"],["馬委員文君：雞蛋的事情，我講的不是「Lin bay好油」，而是我們從巴西進口，然後是這樣的保存期，包括讓人民吃到不新鮮的蛋，而且花了大筆經費……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有吃到不新鮮的蛋。"],["馬委員文君：然後再把它銷毀……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有吃到不新鮮的蛋。"],["馬委員文君：院長，請你不要再微笑……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，沒有吃到不新鮮的蛋。"],["馬委員文君：這部分我很鄭重講，今天如果人家可以為了……"],["陳院長建仁：你現在要講事實……"],["馬委員文君：我跟你講，天候的因素都可以造成他們的道歉，剛剛我講了，今天在決策的過程中，包括你們運用人民的錢、人民的血汗錢，當你自己在花這些錢的時候，你會這樣用嗎？這是我今天要提出來的，我覺得錯誤難免，今天不要讓大家一直攻擊或產生疑慮，或是造成這麼多傷害的時候政府今天才……我們看到行政院副院長也提到，以後針對蘇丹紅事件應該要怎麼樣、怎麼樣。這不是更早之前就該做的嗎？你沒有即時做，而且已經嚴重危害到全臺食安問題時，還不應該道歉嗎？這是沒有錯的嗎？這是我今天看到很多委員提出來後有感而發的，不然本來我今天是沒有準備這一點的。在這裡我們也請院長，因為你身為整個中華民國的大家長，很多的政策決定，包括之前日本北海道發生鐵道意外事件的時候，他們的總裁還以死謝罪，即當中有36個人受傷，他們除了道歉、賠償外，到最後總裁過意不去還以死謝罪，他自殺了。我們沒有要求你們需要這樣子做，可是當你錯誤的時候，你就應該要道歉，甚至很迅速的做出反應。這不是政黨之爭，而是已經影響到全臺，甚至包括國際的形象。這個本來就應該要及時做出決定，這個跟在野黨或者執政黨根本沒有關係，所以這個是我今天特別提出來的，希望就這個部分，我們儘量減少發生；如果可以道歉，或者可以負責，我相信我們的政策決定會有更少的錯誤發生，因為你會更戰戰兢兢，否則現在大家都來互相爭辯就好了，如果有錯的時候，甚至連茶葉跟咖啡都可以拿出來類比，這是什麼樣的官員？所以我們現在要說的是，當你追究責任的時候，今天為什麼我們只是簡單的犯了一些交通錯誤，都可能要被罰900元、千餘元或是3,000元甚至到萬元，這時民眾就會感到痛，但今天官員什麼都可以，站在這裡大喇喇的，做錯了，花了人民的錢，居然還可以不用道歉！他當然一而再再而三的犯錯，哪有關係！這是我們今天要講的態度的問題。"],["陳院長建仁：我們一向戰戰競競。"],["馬委員文君：針對這部分，院長，我們不曉得你會不會繼續續任……"],["陳院長建仁：不會。"],["馬委員文君：可是就這個部分，我們還是希望政府的政策或者政府所有的行政都是延續的，不要一而再再而三……"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["馬委員文君：好。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，謝謝你的指教。我們各部會一向都戰戰兢兢來做福國利民的工作，確實有些缺失的地方，我們一定會來加以精進、改善，應該道歉的我們也會道歉。很重要的，這個內閣跟下一任的內閣一定是無縫接軌，委員不用擔心，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：無縫接軌，我們希望是對的事情啦！"],["陳院長建仁：當然！"],["馬委員文君：如果是有錯誤的，或者強辯那種的無縫接軌……"],["陳院長建仁：不用酸言酸語！"],["馬委員文君：這樣從頭到尾，8年之外後面還4年，這樣大家都會很累。"],["陳院長建仁：不用酸言酸語，不需要！"],["馬委員文君：以上是我們特別提出來的。","另外就是國土計畫法的部分，我是不是在這裡也可以先提出一些建議？因為這個牽涉到整個國家，未來在所有土地利用上面，其實它影響甚深。的確，我們目前還有很多的缺失，或者還有一些不夠周延的地方，而我們的法律一旦開始公告實施以後，它就會造成傷害，如果它不夠好的話。","我簡單舉一些例子來講，臺灣的地形、地貌中，除了平地以外、平原以外，其實很重要的組成是山坡地還有河川，這個在臺灣分布得非常廣泛，尤其它的面積也非常大。從北像臺北、基隆，基隆可能是比較特殊的，部長對自己之前治理過的一個縣市，也非常的熟悉，可是往底下走，包括桃園、包括新竹、苗栗，還有臺中、南投，還有再往下等等，其實，我們高山、河川的地形非常的多。我現在舉例來說，比如說南投縣縣內，大概74%的土地位置，都是在國土保育區上面，都在這個範圍裡面，尤其是國土計畫法一旦公告實施以後，它限制了很多的發展，對很多人民的產權也會造成影響。可是我特別提出來，為什麼會說有不周延的地方？因為在這個過程當中，當初是委託各縣市政府辦理相關分區圖的劃設，不過，因為人力還有資源，還有很多的因素，其實他沒有辦法去實地現勘，或者就現有的現況、現貌去做調整，而是照過去的一些圖資，所以有一些圖資已經很久了，我舉例來說暨南大學，相信院長和部長都有印象吧？"],["陳院長建仁：有。"],["馬委員文君：暨南大學是台地，這個台地在山坡地上。埔里是個盆地，而暨南大學這個台地早期有平埔族、有原住民族，這些台地都非常穩定，從未發生過土石流或什麼的，但就是被劃設為山坡地。我為什麼舉暨南大學為例？因為大家對這個概況比較熟悉，其實南投縣有很多區域大概也是這個情況。它已經很適合居住，也從來沒有發生災害，可是在劃設時就直接以圖面畫上去了。","我再舉一個例子，像烏溪，從仁愛鄉一直到出海口，整個流域面積非常廣，但為了河川治理線，所以就拿地籍圖、圖面直接在河的旁邊畫了。可是這麼多年、幾十年來，堤防可能有改變，921地震後也造成很多位移，所以河川已經不是原來河川的位置。因此，當以圖面直接畫上去的時候……旁邊的中潭公路大家有走過吧？從臺中到日月潭的這一條公路，其實旁邊有很多住宅、民宅，這些是私有地，而且是建地，都被直接劃入河川治理線，以致不能蓋房子、不能居住，但其實他已經在那裡蓋了好幾十年，住好幾代了，就被這樣一劃！其實那是私有地，又是建地，離河川有十層樓高，要淹也淹不上來。偏偏劃設不是就現況，也沒有去現地看到底要不要規範，就是直接畫一條線，然後地就不能用了。這些在在顯示……我舉這些例子是想說，在整個國土計畫法裡，其實各縣市都有發生這樣的問題。在還沒有很周延，也沒有辦法根據現況做調整的情況之下，是不是可以暫緩實施？這是人民的權益，甚至包括財產權在內，我想這在全國各地都有發生，所以這個部分再請院裡面，是不是院長可以跟相關的部門或部會做充分的溝通聯繫，然後再一次審慎的評估？不然到時候就像一些農地上的工廠一樣，那明明是違法的，可是現在卻想方設法讓它就地合法，這樣一來就傷害到很多原來在農地上耕作的農民。農民要蓋農舍很困難，可是這些可以營利的工廠……當然，這是有一些歷史淵源，你又立了這樣的法再去讓它變成的好像可以合法。所以在還沒有發生之前，我們是不是可以讓它可以更好？對這部分，院長有什麼看法？"],["陳院長建仁：國土計畫法這件事確實各縣市在執行上都有很大困難，而且是由各縣市來負責。我們也接收到很多縣市表達民眾陳情的很多案子，就這事情，內政部有跟相關縣市做通盤溝通，我請部長說明一下。"],["林部長右昌：我很簡要地跟委員報告一下。第一個，國土計畫一開始的核心，是因為臺灣國土超限利用，所以是為了國土永續。當然，要劃設的時候是從國土保育區域開始劃設，這第一點。第二個，委員剛剛提到的這些問題，縣市政府在實際執行推動時的確有碰到這些困難，所以國土署在跟地方政府協調溝通時，針對這些問題希望能夠一一解決。第三個，委員剛剛提到的那個應該是水利的行水區，與其實際使用分區有落差不符合的狀況，這個可以個案做檢討……"],["馬委員文君：不是，部長，這不是個案，我剛剛講的全部都是普遍的問題。因為整條河流……"],["林部長右昌：它是一個區域……"],["馬委員文君：沒有、沒有！不是，我說的不是，它不是河川治理線而已，還有包括……因為我們在整個範圍裡面有提到的，可能包括像它的用地範圍線、河川區域線等等……"],["林部長右昌：是，行水區。"],["馬委員文君：其實這些法線都是用圖面，而不是用現況，可是經過幾十年後，有些河流本來是流在那邊的，像是之前南部小林村或什麼的，整個開始位移後，或發生地震、土石流或大水淹過以後，其實河川整個已經走掉了，可是……"],["林部長右昌：是，瞭解。"],["馬委員文君：所以我說的不是個案，而是整條河川線、整條河川，所以這個部分是不是部裡面可以就這些整體的方向再次去檢討，再聽聽人民的聲音，因為我剛剛講的那些都不是個案喔，每個地方都有很多。"],["林部長右昌：我瞭解。"],["馬委員文君：這個部分因為時間的關係，我今天特別提出來……"],["林部長右昌：委員，跟您報告，因為法的話，時間是法定在裡面的，所以這部分的時間需要修法，第二個是我們現在地方政府會提出相關的計畫，我們會進行審議，你剛剛提到的那些問題都會在審議的過程裡面提出來。"],["馬委員文君：部長，它已經要公告實施了，時間的關係，它已經要公告實施了，所以大家比較擔心的是這樣，因為法已經初步通過，所以我們應該怎麼樣讓它更周全，是不是慢一點，其實我覺得都可以讓大家更好，也確保人民的財產權。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["馬委員文君：這是我們今天要提出來的，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：我們會來研議，因為各縣市都有反映。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","報告院會，現在休息10分鐘，現在休息。","休息（10時36分）","繼續開會（10時46分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.77284375,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.66721875,"end":8.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.24909375,"end":9.396593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.437843750000003,"end":18.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.610343750000002,"end":21.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.71096875,"end":65.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.26971875000001,"end":87.19034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.93284375,"end":124.07909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.55159375000001,"end":127.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.06159375000001,"end":158.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.35221875000002,"end":167.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.27471875,"end":173.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.75096875,"end":175.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.02909375000002,"end":191.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.56471875,"end":175.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.00971875000002,"end":206.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.54784375000003,"end":204.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.65284375000002,"end":206.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.57659375,"end":208.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.36971875,"end":210.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.11221875,"end":215.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.41159375,"end":211.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.71096875,"end":216.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.63846875000002,"end":233.36159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.95221875000001,"end":235.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.14596875,"end":242.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.91284375,"end":268.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.00159375000004,"end":276.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.21971875,"end":282.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.05846875000003,"end":308.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.46784375000004,"end":331.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.19846875,"end":360.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.04534375000003,"end":340.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.37846875,"end":341.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.32471875000005,"end":362.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.01221875000005,"end":391.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.88346875,"end":378.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.03471875,"end":381.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.42534375,"end":394.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.44221875000005,"end":394.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.41659375,"end":413.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.75534375,"end":493.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.82659375000003,"end":417.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.90659375,"end":419.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.98221875,"end":419.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.79221875,"end":421.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.18034375,"end":421.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.45846875,"end":423.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.49221875,"end":425.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.84409375,"end":517.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.02159375,"end":533.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.97284375,"end":545.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.7178437499999,"end":559.0490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.3022187500001,"end":571.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.92471875,"end":574.0678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.9584687500001,"end":572.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.42221875,"end":605.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.4722187500001,"end":612.2053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.8803437500001,"end":623.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.71846875,"end":622.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.5790937500001,"end":663.1003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.02846875,"end":664.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.0578437500001,"end":669.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.9853437500001,"end":670.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.1497187500001,"end":673.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":673.3772187500001,"end":691.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.43346875,"end":735.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":735.29159375,"end":749.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":749.83784375,"end":768.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":768.38346875,"end":793.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.037843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所以剛剛我念的這些院長也是這文都沒有錯嗎?"},{"start":175.646,"end":187.754,"text":"有,桃機我們的這個相關的單位都已經有到桃園機場的那個事件有道歉。 然後雞蛋的事情的話,實際上這是林北好友的一個錯假消息嘛齁。"},{"start":190.055,"end":204.847,"text":"一旦的事情我講的不是林北好友,而是我們從巴西進口,然後你這樣子的一個保存期還包括讓人民吃到不新鮮的蛋,而且花了大筆的經費,然後你再去把它銷毀。"},{"start":207.629,"end":233.004,"text":"院長,請你不要再微笑。這個部分我很慎重地講。今天如果人家可以為天后的因素都可以造成他們可以道歉。剛剛我講了,今天你在決策的過程,包括你在運用人民的錢,人民的血汗錢,當你自己在花這些錢的時候,你會這樣用嗎?這是我今天要提出來的。"},{"start":234.005,"end":260.305,"text":"我覺得錯誤難免今天不要說讓大家一直攻擊或者大家產生疑慮或者造成這麼多的傷害的時候政府才今天我們看到副院長行政院副院長他有提到我們以後就這個蘇丹紅的事件我們應該要怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣這個不是更早之前就應該做的嗎那你沒有及時做而且造成已經嚴重危害到全台的食安的問題的時候還不應該道歉嗎"},{"start":262.907,"end":282.065,"text":"這是沒有錯的嗎這是我今天其實在看到很多委員提出來的時候有感而發但本來我今天是沒有準備這一點的在這裡我們也請院長因為你身為整個中華民國的大家長很多的政策決定包括"},{"start":283.166,"end":308.051,"text":"之前日本北海道他們發生那個鐵道意外事件的時候他們的總裁還以死卸罪36個人受傷他們除了道歉賠償到最後總裁過意不去還以死卸罪他自殺了我們沒有要求說我們需要這樣子需要這樣子做可是當你錯誤的時候你就應該要道歉或者甚至很迅速的不用這個不是政黨之爭"},{"start":309.731,"end":331.116,"text":"這個已經影響到全臺所有的甚至包括國際的形象這個本來就應該要及時的做決定而不是這個跟在野黨或者執政黨根本沒有關係所以我想這個是我今天特別提出來的我們希望就這個部分我們盡量減少如果可以道歉或者可以負責"},{"start":332.256,"end":359.956,"text":"我相信我們的政策決定會有更少的錯誤發生,因為你會更戰戰兢兢。 現在大家人都來消費就好了,你如果有錯的時候甚至連茶葉跟咖啡都可以拿出來類比這是怎麼樣的官員。 所以我們現在要說的是當你追究責任的時候,今天為什麼我們簡單的犯了一些交通法則都要被罰九百、千萬、三千、甚至萬萬。"},{"start":361.357,"end":361.898,"text":"我們不曉得你會不會繼續續任"},{"start":381.818,"end":390.951,"text":"就這個部分我們還是希望政府的政策或者政府的所有的行政都是延續的。"},{"start":392.492,"end":412.994,"text":"我可以回答嗎?委員謝謝你的指教我想我們各部會一向都戰戰兢兢來做復國立民的工作那確實有些缺失的地方我們一定會來加以精進改善那應該道歉的我們也會道歉那很重要的這個內閣跟下一任的內閣一定是無縫接軌委員不用擔心謝謝"},{"start":413.874,"end":442.165,"text":"五縫接軌我們希望是對的事情,如果是有錯誤的或是偏賊,你看五縫接軌,月頭到八年後面又四年,這樣大家也很累。所以在這裡我想接下來這是我們特別提出來的,另外就是就國土計畫法的部分,希望是不是可以在這裡也先提出一些建議,因為這個牽涉到整個國家,我們在未來"},{"start":442.945,"end":442.985,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":463.454,"end":480.55,"text":"我簡單舉一些例子來講,因為臺灣的地形地貌,其實它大概都是組成除了平地以外,平原以外,其實很重要的組成是山坡地還有河川,這個在臺灣分佈非常的廣泛,尤其它的面積也非常大。"},{"start":481.05,"end":495.335,"text":"你從北向台北基隆基隆可能是還比較特殊的我想部長對自己的你在之前治理過的一個縣市也非常的熟悉可是往往底下包括桃園"},{"start":496.315,"end":496.796,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":519.036,"end":534.036,"text":"﹗"},{"start":534.216,"end":558.632,"text":"為什麼說有不周延的地方?因為在這個過程當中各縣市政府當初是委託各縣市政府去辦理相關的這些分區土的劃設不過因為人力還有資源還有很多的因素其實他沒有辦法去實地的去做現勘或者就現有的一個現況現貌去做調整"},{"start":559.392,"end":573.75,"text":"而是照過去的一些圖資所以有一些圖資他已經很久了比如我舉例來說我相信院長跟部長都對濟南大學一定有印象吧濟南大學是一個台地"},{"start":574.451,"end":592.407,"text":"他這個台地他也在山坡地上可是既然他大學這個台地他已經從早期甚至有平埔族還有原住民族其實因為埔里是一個盆地像這些台地都非常的穩定然後沒有從來沒有發生過什麼土石流啊什麼的"},{"start":593.027,"end":593.167,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":612.915,"end":613.095,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":643.295,"end":643.435,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":671.249,"end":671.409,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":691.574,"end":709.955,"text":"所以在在的顯示我們我舉這些例子是說我們在整個國土計畫法裡面其實各個縣市都有發生這樣的問題是不是就還沒有很周延沒有辦法用現況去做調整的情況之下是不是可以暫緩實施因為這個部分我們請因為"},{"start":712.998,"end":734.472,"text":"人民的權利的問題包括他的財產權我想這個可能全國各地都有發生所以這個部分在請院裡面是不是院長可以跟相關的部門或者相關的部會可以做充分的溝通聯繫然後再一次審慎的評估因為不然你到時候又會像一些農地上面的工廠"},{"start":735.413,"end":760.411,"text":"他明明是違法的可是你現在想方設法讓他就地合法那又傷害到很多原來在農地上面工作的農民他蓋他要蓋農舍很困難可是像可以營利的工廠其實我們這個當然也是有一些歷史的淵源那你又立了這樣的法再去再去讓他變成好像可以合法"},{"start":760.911,"end":763.253,"text":"國土計畫法這件事情確實是在各個縣市在執行上都有很大的困難,而且各縣市來負責,所以我們也"},{"start":778.763,"end":781.524,"text":"國土計畫一開始的核心其實就是因為我們臺灣的國土超限利用所以為了國土的永續"},{"start":806.007,"end":820.946,"text":"那當然他在畫社的時候從國土的保育的區域開始畫社這第一點。第二個你剛剛提到的這些問題在實際縣市政府在執行推動的時候的確有碰到這些困難所以我們國土署在跟地方政府在"},{"start":821.539,"end":821.699,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":839.695,"end":864.665,"text":"這個落差不符合的這個狀況那這個其實是可以個案來做檢討不是不是部長這個不是個案我剛剛講的它全部都是普遍的問題因為它整條河流它整條河流不是沒有沒有不是它不是我說的不是它不是河川治理線而已它還有包括它因為我們在整個範圍裡面我們有提到的可能包括"},{"start":865.145,"end":894.445,"text":"﹗"},{"start":894.525,"end":894.565,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":947.28,"end":949.322,"text":"謝謝馬文君委員的質詢。謝謝陳議長的備詢。報告院會現在休息10分鐘。我們現在休息。"}]}},{"id":"149715","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149715","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a2938d0c3d9e205feffba04b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a631c2673164c3cee95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:04:34 - 10:20:24","影片長度":"00:15:50","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":950,"end_time":"2024-03-12T10:20:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T10:04:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":420,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時4分）謝謝。主席，我們請陳院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：李委員早，恭喜你當選立委。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝院長，早安！今天我希望我們可以在質詢過程當中問出一些我們民眾想要知道的答案跟問題。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我們在處理年改的時候，特別加了一個非常重要的條文，對於物價指數超過5%的時候或者每4年，我們都應該去列入調整。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["李委員彥秀：今年在選舉過程當中，從1月4號的新聞上，我也看到你有提到，今年因為我們111年的CPI物價指數漲了2.95，112年漲到2.49，上個月主計處公布的CPI物價消費指數更漲到3.08，我想物價通膨你非常清楚，111、112其實也超過5%，所以我也感謝院長，你看到這些指數已經超過了，行政院馬上就將這個部分列入討論，退休的軍公教人員有很多人都靠著退休金在生活。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：你也非常清楚地知道現在物價指數的狀況，買一個便當可能120塊，要再加蛋可能變135。對於人民的痛苦，只要退休金增加一些些、調整一些些，對他來說都有很大的幫助，很多人都是靠這份退休金在生活，所以我想請問院長，距離上次1月5號的承諾，有很多人批評您說：哎呀！這個又是政策選舉在買票，但是2個月、3個月過去了，現在已經3月12號了，很多人都在等，不是說好要調嗎？怎麼沒有調？"],["陳院長建仁：有啊！"],["李委員彥秀：我在基層很多人都在問我，所以院長你要不要回應一下，就是到底什麼時候調？要不要調？是不是真的有要調？是不是1個月之內就要調？因為每個月都差很多，對很多人來講，他可能1個月差個一、兩千塊，對他來說生活都影響非常大，你要不要具體地回應？到底你是要留給下一任的行政院長來公布，還是最近就要調？"],["陳院長建仁：不會，委員，最重要的是這樣子，因為這個和物價調整有關，物價調整最後那幾年的情況是主計處要有一個正式的公告，所以……"],["李委員彥秀：是，院長……"],["陳院長建仁：但是我要跟委員講的是，去年我們也想說可能會超過5%，所以去年就開始編列預算，但是……"],["李委員彥秀：是，你已經匡列了44億，院長我知道，要法源有法源，因為2年加起來的物價指數也超過5%，我剛才已經報告過。"],["陳院長建仁：是，但是真正要調多少，要看那個物價指數，所以我們才跟考試院以及……"],["李委員彥秀：是，要考試院、銓敘部跟國防部。"],["陳院長建仁：對，國防部一起，所以最近這個一定會……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我現在要問時間啦，我知道其實這個都是行政作業，也不需要做到2個月，如果這個事情你覺得很重要，其實早就應該有答案。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊，所以我們……"],["李委員彥秀：所以我今天希望具體地幫所有軍公教同仁請問院長，到底這件事情什麼時候可以做？因為到時候你當然會追溯到1月1號，但是每個月錢都不夠用啊！所以院長到底什麼時候要做？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我想在最近……"],["李委員彥秀：是520前，還是下個月，還是1個月內？"],["陳院長建仁：在最近就會公告了。"],["李委員彥秀：最近？在1個月之內？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["李委員彥秀：好，感謝院長。時間先暫停，請林右昌部長。"],["主席：請內政部備詢。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我的時間不要一直走。"],["主席：時間暫停。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我想第二個政策非常重要，我覺得居住正義是社會正義當中非常重要的一環。"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["李委員彥秀：我相信您同意。"],["陳院長建仁：我同意。"],["李委員彥秀：過去七、八年來蔡英文強調我們要興建20萬戶的社宅，賴清德更談到他要興建100萬戶，社宅的興建有它的挑戰跟困難度。"],["陳院長建仁：不是興建100萬戶，是包括包租代管還有房租補貼。"],["李委員彥秀：對，包租代管，但是我們都非常清楚，包括林右昌部長過去擔任過基隆市市長，你非常清楚興建的困難度在哪裡，所以我們才有包租代管政策。我也關注到您在基隆市市長任內的時候，包括中央的興建其實有449戶，但是我想你知道取得土地的困難度，我相信你同意我的說法，基隆的基地不大，公有土地不多，所以基隆市當時自己興建的不多，但是你的包租代管政策是成功的，我這樣講、這樣肯定你可以吧？"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：來，我們來看幾個數據，我的數據裡面，大家可以看到包租代管過去有20萬戶，蔡英文的20萬戶，包租代管將近占了五成，所以包租代管的政策對我們來說其實是相對重要的，因為興建要找土地不是那麼容易，鄰近要蓋的時候，又要跟旁邊鄰地的住戶做更多的溝通，所以包租代管是重要的政策。我們也看到過去這7、8年已完成興建的只有12.8戶，然後我們再看下一張圖表……"],["陳院長建仁：12.8萬戶。"],["李委員彥秀：真正包租代管政策成功也將近占了五成，在臺北市3,296戶、新北市六千多戶、桃園一萬多戶、臺中市5,228戶，基隆就3,190戶，以人口數來說，基隆包租代管做得相當的成功。","部長，我要請教您，六都裡面各縣市租金有沒有差異性？"],["林部長右昌：當然有差異性。"],["李委員彥秀：對，我覺得我們現在包租代管政策做得好很重要，您剛才也同意，我們給的獎勵、優惠或給的蘿蔔是，你如果提出要包租代管的話，房東可以免1萬5,000塊的優惠，對不對？"],["林部長右昌：那個是稅金……"],["李委員彥秀：但是部長，你知道嗎？新北市、臺北市跟基隆市1萬5,000可以租到幾坪的房子？我幫你算，因為時間不多，臺北市大概只可以租到9坪，新北市可以租到16坪，所以1萬5,000塊的租稅優惠，其實我覺得在各縣市應該有差異性或者放寬，我們才有機會包租代管政策能夠做得更成功。院長、部長，你同意我的說法嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！但是我要跟委員講，你也剛才提到，因為以現在這樣的免稅額度，我們也發現包租代管的事情是很蓬勃在進行，甚至有些……"],["李委員彥秀：對啦！但是院長，我要告訴你……"],["陳院長建仁：你現在要講縣市差異，是嗎？"],["李委員彥秀：很多租金都是隱形收入，你稽查也不好稽查，有沒有被課到稅不好稽查，房東配合包租代管，反而被懲罰到，因為變成他的租金要揭露，對不對？部長，你同意嘛！對不對？"],["林部長右昌：不過我們現在因為已經修法，這部分是……"],["李委員彥秀：對，所以我前幾天特別在財政委員會質詢的時候跟莊部長討論，我覺得我們的包租代管成功是社會住宅居住正義當中很重要的一環，達標很重要的一環。但是各縣市在1萬5,000塊，第一，要不是更放寬，我們提高上限；第二，要不然我們就應該有各縣市租金收入的差異性，院長，您瞭解我的意思嗎？譬如以臺北市來說……"],["陳院長建仁：是免稅額的差異性。"],["李委員彥秀：我們免稅額的差異性應該要出來，我們的包租代管政策才有機會像基隆做的這麼成功，你同意我的說法嗎？部長，我們可不可以研擬這樣的方向來進行？"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員的建議，當然這個意見其實之前也有人提過，不過它也會衍生其他的問題，因為你知道，就是所有補助的金額跟標準會整個都沒有一致性，還有第二個是其實我們……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，沒有一致性，我覺得一條法令化，但是這就是牽涉到你包租代管要不要成功這件事情……"],["林部長右昌：是，我跟委員……"],["李委員彥秀：各縣市有它的差異性在……"],["林部長右昌：我30秒跟委員報告一下……"],["李委員彥秀：地價也不一樣、租金也不一樣，你很清楚，在臺北市1萬5,000塊可以租到9坪的房子，在新北市可以租到16坪，所以我覺得每個縣市要把包租代管做得更成功，免稅額的差異性要出來，要不然你就把它放得更寬，要不然你把它放到3萬塊，那我們包租代管就有機會成功。","所以我分兩個層次來跟您建議，第一個，我們放寬免稅額的上限，譬如說是2萬5、3萬塊，你們去做討論；第二，要不然就是各縣市要有差異性出來，我們才有機會讓包租代管政策在全國各縣市都能夠做得更成功，有更多的包租代管的房子願意進來，社會住宅的政策才有機會做得更成功。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，謝謝你的創意和建議啦！因為這個會跟政府的稅收也有關係，所以我們會讓……"],["李委員彥秀：你們算其實差沒多少啦！"],["陳院長建仁：財政部來研議一下。"],["李委員彥秀：但是對於貧富的差距，買不到房子、租不到房子，在六都裡面其實大家都是有感的，所以你們才講說居住正義很重要，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：讓我們來研議。"],["李委員彥秀：我們趕快來研擬，好不好？朝修法的方向來研擬。"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，這個正本清源，我們最重要的目標還是直接興建，那包租代管是一個過程……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["李委員彥秀：興建很慢啦！"],["林部長右昌：但是我們必須要加速去追趕，我們過去……"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得你過去當基隆市市長包租代管做得很成功，所以你更應該去思考，每一塊都非常重要，興建也好、包租代管也好，因為包租代管可以讓每一個區塊都有社宅可以提供出來，更方便所需要的人，你同意我的說法嗎？"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員的建議。"],["李委員彥秀：對不對？我們是不是可以朝向這樣的方式來進行？"],["陳院長建仁：我們來研議看看可行性多少，還有應該怎麼接，這個需要財政部的意見。"],["李委員彥秀：好，我知道，包租代管之後我希望可以去做進一步的研擬。部長請回，我現在請邱主委。","院長、主委，兩岸的問題，其實整個院裡面不同調，我覺得到底要人民能夠安心，還是應該要緊張，這個實在是很奇怪。國防部部長說他輾轉難眠，邱部長說他也睡不好，然後蔡明彥蔡局長說要國人放心，臺海的局勢沒有升高。國防部部長跟局長對臺灣來說，一個是耳目，一個是臂膀，但是兩個人卻是各自表述，我們到底應該放鬆，還是應該緊張，人民應該相信誰，我覺得這個問題很重要。院長，你上一次參加蔡總統召開的國安高層會議是什麼時候？"],["陳院長建仁：上個禮拜三。"],["李委員彥秀：上個禮拜？"],["陳院長建仁：我跟委員報告，臺灣的……"],["李委員彥秀：院長等一下，這件事情很重要，上次召開國安的高層會議是什麼時候，你參與的。"],["陳院長建仁：我們有國安的早餐會報啦！"],["李委員彥秀：國安高層會議呢？"],["陳院長建仁：國安高層會議，這個……"],["李委員彥秀：不知道？忘記了？"],["陳院長建仁：不是。"],["李委員彥秀：有沒有針對兩岸的局勢，包括金廈的事件啦……"],["陳院長建仁：都有，都有在討論。"],["李委員彥秀：包括諾魯斷交，還有大陸片面取消M503的航線，針對這些事情到底有沒有召開國安高層會議？"],["陳院長建仁：都有在討論，都有在國安的相關的會議討論。"],["李委員彥秀：但是沒有召開國安高層會議？"],["陳院長建仁：有些機密性的事情，我在這裡不方便說明啦！但是確實這一些談到的都有在討論。"],["李委員彥秀：好，那沒關係，我請問一下邱主委，你上一次參加國安高層會議是什麼時候？"],["邱主任委員太三：誠如剛才院長講的，其實我們每個禮拜都有一些相關的會議在進行，這個進行包括彙整國防、國安，還有兩岸、外交等等之類的……"],["李委員彥秀：看起來你們兩個說的是都有召開嘛！只是或許不是叫做……"],["邱主任委員太三：每個禮拜都會有一些例行的會議。"],["李委員彥秀：它不是叫做國安高層會議，但是都有召開，到底開了什麼？有一些不能對外揭露，但是有一些應該讓人民放心啊！蔡明彥局長說兩岸局勢沒有升高，那你就要讓人民放心啊！對外至少要讓大家知道你們開了什麼會議，但外界都在講蔡總統對於兩岸的局勢好像當神隱少女一樣，都沒有講半句話！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有當神隱少女！實際上國安的問題，我覺得……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，國安高層會議，我從網路上調閱資料，你們甚至對過去2022年發放6,000塊的現金，你們也召開國安高層會議；針對烏克蘭的局勢，你們也召開國安會議；然後包括美國總統大選過後，你們也召開國安高層會議。當然有些你們的內容不能揭露，但是我覺得讓外界知道每一次國安高層會議結束之後，你就必須釋放出某一些訊息，讓人民可以安心。我們現在最大的問題是我們國安局局長跟邱部長不同調，一個是他輾轉難眠，釋放出來的是兩岸局勢很緊張；另外一個是要大家放心，沒事情、沒事情，那到底是怎麼樣？ CNN國際分析的記者還說「臺海的局勢沒有最危險，只有更危險」，這是我們從媒體上看到。"],["陳院長建仁：那是他個人的看法。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我們到底是要相信誰？CNN的記者？還是我們要相信蔡局長？還是我們要相信邱部長？還是今天邱主委要說什麼？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上兩岸的情勢它連動到所謂的國際，我想委員大概也清楚，基本上總統都會在涉及到影響我們國內重大的財政、經濟或其他的情勢的時候，他才有所謂……"],["李委員彥秀：主委、院長，我覺得兩岸局勢的緊張……"],["邱主任委員太三：對，對，對，包括兩岸。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得要讓人民知道，現在不同調，蔡總統到底是氣定神閒……"],["邱主任委員太三：我想國安局局長昨天在大院的國防外交委員會的講法，應該就是綜合所有的局勢所做的一個報告……"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得如果有召開相關國安高層會議或相關的國安會議，就一定要釋放這訊息……"],["邱主任委員太三：但是我們要戒慎恐懼。"],["李委員彥秀：否則我們現在人民不知道兩岸局勢到底應該緊張，還是應該放心，請蔡總統不要當神隱少女，如果你們有開會，也要釋放出一些訊息讓人民知道。"],["陳院長建仁：他沒有當神隱少女，我想……"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有啦，就是有國安局長的報告……"],["陳院長建仁：我想，國安局長的講法就是代表我們對國安的看法。"],["邱主任委員太三：對啦！"],["李委員彥秀：我們也希望蔡總統要對外釋放一些訊息，因為你今天才說國安局局長的看法是你們高層的看法，所以邱部長不代表高層？"],["邱主任委員太三：他是綜合。"],["陳院長建仁：綜合。"],["邱主任委員太三：因為剛才你提到涉及國防、外交、兩岸還有其他的情勢……"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["李委員彥秀：好。"],["主席：謝謝李委員彥秀的發言，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第7位馬委員文君質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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":"我相信您同意。我同意。"},{"start":245.143,"end":273.742,"text":"過去7、8年來蔡英文強調我們要興建20萬戶的社宅賴清德更談到他要興建100萬戶社宅的興建有它的挑戰跟困難度不是興建100萬戶是包括包租貸款還有房租補貼但是我們都非常清楚包括林佑昌林部長您過去擔任過基隆市市長您非常清楚興建的困難度在哪裡所以我們才有包租貸款政策我也關注到您在基隆市市長任內的時候"},{"start":275.463,"end":275.743,"text":"來我們來看幾個數據"},{"start":301.977,"end":308.565,"text":"我的數據裡面大家看到包租貸款是我們整個過去20萬戶蔡英文的20萬戶包租貸款將近佔了5成"},{"start":313.092,"end":336.232,"text":"所以包租代管的政策對我們來說其實是相對重要因為興建要找土地不是那麼容易又要跟鄰近要蓋的時候又要跟住戶去做旁邊林地的住戶做更多的溝通所以包租代管是重要的政策我們也看到過去這七八年我們興建的已完成的只有12.8戶然後我們再看下一張圖表"},{"start":337.093,"end":337.293,"text":"當然有差異性。"},{"start":365.418,"end":366.459,"text":"新北市跟台北市跟基隆市"},{"start":386.698,"end":390.181,"text":"臺北市大概只可以租到9坪新北市可以租到16坪"},{"start":397.611,"end":416.813,"text":"所以15000塊的租稅的優惠其實我覺得在各縣市應該有差異性或者放寬我們才有機會包租代管政策能夠做得更成功 院長部長你同意我的說法嗎"},{"start":417.774,"end":441.663,"text":"對啦但是我要跟委員講的你剛才提到因為以現在的這樣的免稅額度呢我們也發現這一個包租貸款的事情是很蓬勃在進行甚至有些……對啦但是院長我要告訴你租金很多租金都是隱形收入你積償也不好積償有沒有被課稅不好積償我配合包租貸款"},{"start":442.703,"end":454.706,"text":"我反而被懲罰到房東,因為我變成我的租金要揭露,對不對?部長你同意嗎?對不對?對,所以我前幾天我特別在財政委員會質詢的時候,我跟莊部長討論說,我覺得第一,"},{"start":461.488,"end":486.702,"text":"我們的包租貸款成功是社會住宅居住正義當中很重要的一環,達標很重要的一環。但是在各縣市在15000塊,第一要不是更放寬,我們提高上限。第二,要不然我們就應該有各縣市的租金收入的差異性。院長您了解我的意思嗎?以台北市來說,譬如說免稅額的差異性,我們應該要出來。"},{"start":490.083,"end":514.134,"text":"我們包出代管政策才有機會像基隆做的這麼成功,你同意我的說法嗎?我們可不可以嚴明這樣的方向來進行?謝謝委員的這個建議,當然這個意見其實之前也有人提過,不過他也會衍生其他的一個問題,也就是因為你知道所有的補助的金額跟標準會整個都"},{"start":516.616,"end":537.305,"text":"沒有一致性,我覺得一條法令的話,但是這就是牽涉到你包租貸款要不要成功這件事情,各縣市有它的差異性在,地價也不一樣,租金也不一樣,你很清楚,在台北市15000塊可以租到9坪的房子,在新北市可以租到16坪。"},{"start":538.485,"end":560.493,"text":"所以我覺得每個縣市要把包租貸款做得更成功,那個免稅額的差異性要出來,我覺得才,要不然你就把它放得更寬,要不然你把它放到3萬塊,那就有機會我們包租貸款,所以我分兩個層次來跟您建議,第一個就是我們放寬免稅額的上限,譬如說是2萬5、3萬塊,你們去做討論,"},{"start":562.694,"end":562.834,"text":"委員﹚李彥秀"},{"start":588.465,"end":607.35,"text":"但是年輕人對於貧富的差距買不到房子出不到房子在六都裡面其實大家都是有感的所以你們才講說居住生意很重要。好不好我們趕快來演你好不好朝修法的方向來演你。各位委員報告這個正本經驗我們最重要的目標還是直接興建那包租貸款是一個過程。興建很慢啊。"},{"start":608.13,"end":635.935,"text":"但是這個就是必須要,我們必須要加速去追趕我們過去其次前面做的事情。我覺得你過去在金融市場包租貸款做得很成功,所以你更應該去思考每一塊都非常重要。新建也好,包租貸款,因為包租貸款的話可以讓每一個區塊都有社宅可以提供出來,更方便所需要的人,你同意我的說法嗎?謝謝委員的建議。對不對,我們是不是可以朝向這樣的方式來去做進行。我們來研議看看可行性多少,還有應該怎麼簽,那個需要財政部的意見。"},{"start":637.176,"end":637.436,"text":"邱主委"},{"start":646.052,"end":672.111,"text":"院長部長兩岸的問題其實我覺得整個院裡面不同調我實在是覺得這個到底要人民能夠安心還是應該要緊張我覺得實在是很奇怪國安部部長說他輾轉難眠邱部長說他也睡不好然後我們蔡明彥蔡局長說要國人放心台海的局勢沒有升高"},{"start":673.212,"end":700.055,"text":"國防部部長跟局長一個是在對台灣來說一個是耳目一個是背膀但是兩個人卻是各自表述我們到底應該放鬆還是應該緊張人民應該相信誰我覺得這個問題很重要院長你上一次參加蔡總統召開的國安高層會議是什麼時候?上個禮拜三"},{"start":701.798,"end":704.543,"text":"我跟委員報告,臺灣的...我們有國安的早餐會報啦。國安高層會議呢?"},{"start":715.615,"end":734.355,"text":"國安高層會議有沒有針對兩岸的局勢,包括驚嚇的事件、若乳斷交、大陸片面取消M503的航線,針對這些事情到底有沒有召開國安高層會議?都有在討論,都有在國安相關的會議討論。"},{"start":738.726,"end":754.57,"text":"但是沒有召開國安高層會議。 這個有些機密性的事情我在這裡不方便說明,但是確實這一些談到的都有待會。 我請問一下周主委,你上一次參加國安高層會議是什麼時候?"},{"start":754.57,"end":758.831,"text":"周主委剛剛院長講了,其實我們每個禮拜都有一些相關的會議在進行。"},{"start":759.671,"end":775.766,"text":"那這個進行了包括會長的國防、國安、還有兩岸、還有外交等等。 啊看起來你們兩個講是都有召開嘛。只是他或許他不是叫……每個禮拜都會有一型的會。 他不是叫國安高層會但是都有召開。"},{"start":776.727,"end":794.323,"text":"那到底開了什麼?有一些不能對外揭露,但是有一些應該讓人民放心啊。蔡明彥局長說兩岸局勢沒有升高,那你就要讓人民放心啊。你對外至少要讓大家知道你們開了什麼會議。但外界都在講說蔡總統對於兩岸的局勢好像當神隱少女一樣,都沒有講半句話。"},{"start":796.124,"end":800.649,"text":"國安高層會議我從網路上調閱資料,你們甚至對過去2022年發放6000塊的現金也召開國安高層會議,針對烏克蘭的局勢也召開國安會議,包括美國總統大選過後也召開國安高層會議。"},{"start":818.989,"end":845.707,"text":"當然有些內容你們不能揭露但是我覺得讓外界知道每一次國安高層會議結束之後你就必須釋放出某一些訊息讓人民可以安心我們現在最大的問題是我們國安局局長跟處部長不同調一個是他輾轉難眠釋放出來的是兩岸局勢很緊張另外一個是要大家放心沒問題沒問題那到底是怎麼樣我們CNN國際分析的記者還說"},{"start":847.048,"end":873.833,"text":"台海的局勢沒有最危險只有更危險這是我們從媒體上看到所以我們到底是要相信誰CNN的記者還是我們要相信我們要相信蔡局長還是我們要相信邱部長還是今天邱主委要說什麼我想基本上兩岸的這個情勢它連動到所謂的國際的這我想委員大概清楚了那基本上大概總統都會在"},{"start":876.173,"end":877.334,"text":"國安局局長昨天在貴院的大院的這個國防外交委員會他的"},{"start":898.777,"end":900.959,"text":"國安局長的講法就是代表我們對國安的看法。"},{"start":925.546,"end":927.448,"text":"謝謝李委員彥秀的發言。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第七位馬委員文俊"}]}},{"id":"149714","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149714","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a29388eb97fc1d2b59be704b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a6881215e59f4c0ebf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"09:48:24 - 10:04:13","影片長度":"00:15:49","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":949,"end_time":"2024-03-12T10:04:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T09:48:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":263,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（9時48分）院長，我請陳院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：謝委員早。"],["謝委員龍介：陳院長早，很遺憾在這裡，你還記得臺中的事件發生之後，我們剛好就延宕了大概二個禮拜都在討論西布特羅的事情"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["謝委員龍介：結果事情你也知道，我們臺灣人說的「賠錢的生意沒人做，殺頭的生意有人做」。"],["陳院長建仁：沒錯。"],["謝委員龍介：有暴利嘛！一開始發現蘇丹紅，當然你的態度很清楚，我也知道你看事情很科學，不過貴黨有一些委員在這裡，你卻變成配合他們，會讓所有臺灣人覺得很像是檢驗到的時候，應該要給當事人15天的緩衝期，剛好那個時候驗出蘇丹紅的時候，你看我們就多吃15天的蘇丹紅。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，這兩件事情不一樣。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，社會就是這樣，為什麼？當初你在這裡做這樣的發表時……"],["陳院長建仁：不是這樣，你混淆了兩件事情。"],["謝委員龍介：造成地方驗到時，行政院長就說這個單位要先讓人申訴15天啊！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，你這樣說完全不對。"],["謝委員龍介：我這不是說……不是你的問題啦，問題不是你的問題，所以……"],["陳院長建仁：雲林縣政府查出來以後馬上就有通報、馬上叫它下架，這兩件事情不能混為一談。"],["謝委員龍介：因為本席在這裡有問你，我問你說零檢出驗到的時候是不是應該要即時公布，你也說是嘛，你那時是這樣回答我的，你忘記了？"],["陳院長建仁：現在你在說西布特羅……"],["謝委員龍介：我問你的時候你忘記了嗎？我跟你說，零檢出萊克多巴胺、乙型受體素是零檢出，但是地方檢驗機關如果驗到是不是要即時公布？你跟我說是啊！"],["陳院長建仁：如果是正確的時候，是。"],["謝委員龍介：我告訴你……"],["陳院長建仁：對，我本來都這樣講。"],["謝委員龍介：所有的那個……好，來，等你們最後的調查報告出來，也沒有說實驗室受到污染呀，這樣它為什麼不正確？"],["陳院長建仁：但是那個報告……"],["謝委員龍介：你們當時怎麼樣？"],["陳院長建仁：那個報告裡面……"],["謝委員龍介：不是啦，你們當時是強力……我現在不是要跟你說過去的事情了，那也已經告一段落嘛﹗"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["謝委員龍介：你現在看到這蘇丹紅這麼嚴重，你就知道……我請教你，我要你去調查過去有這個案例嗎？海關驗到要求退關的時候如果沒有退關，有勾結，變更名稱又再進來！"],["陳院長建仁：它有退關。"],["謝委員龍介：有退關？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["謝委員龍介：你肯定全部都有退關？"],["陳院長建仁：蘇丹紅這件事情，如果有辣椒粉檢驗到蘇丹紅就要退關。"],["謝委員龍介：好。"],["陳院長建仁：退關……"],["謝委員龍介：部長說怎樣？你的部長說，怎麼知道你們大家都很愛吃辣！我覺得你的部長回答這個實在是……"],["陳院長建仁：這個大家愛吃辣……"],["謝委員龍介：多少鄉親多麼憤慨呢！"],["陳院長建仁：愛吃辣這是我們人民的習慣啦，但是……"],["謝委員龍介：那他怎麼可以怪我們愛吃辣呢？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有啦，沒人怪啦、沒人怪！我覺得要尊重大家……"],["謝委員龍介：部長就是這樣說啊！"],["陳院長建仁：要尊重大家的口味啦。"],["謝委員龍介：所以你要跟他溝通一下啦。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我來跟他溝通。"],["謝委員龍介：這種失言是沒必要的嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：是，確實。"],["謝委員龍介：我現在請教你身分證的事情，你知道吧？"],["陳院長建仁：我知道，你說電子身分證嘛？"],["謝委員龍介：是啦。"],["陳院長建仁：好，要講清楚。"],["謝委員龍介：這件事情很嚴重啦，林部長，我看請教你一下，來。"],["主席：麻煩請內政部。"],["謝委員龍介：院長，有些細節我不知道你瞭不瞭解。"],["陳院長建仁：有啦，這我知道有這個……"],["謝委員龍介：現在我們臺灣人所聽到、理解到的就是我們要賠償2.8億啊，你們從官方發布的就是說，不是賠償、是降低損失啊。但是我請教院長，本席所接收到的是，不是2.8億欸，你們還有付一筆4.3億給人家，你知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這讓我們……"],["林部長右昌：委員，你說4.3億是哪一部分？"],["謝委員龍介：所以院長你不知道，那我請教你，部長，2.8億有沒有包括那些機器？"],["林部長右昌：機器是現在已經存在的。"],["謝委員龍介：機器存在？不是啦，機器存在花多少錢？你跟我講一下。"],["林部長右昌：機器存在因為它是已經支付出去、已經是架構……"],["謝委員龍介：對啊！你把付機器的錢另外講，本來我們說的全部十億多就是包括機器喔，你現在說：「沒有，我們只降到2.8億。」讓我們覺得好像你很會做事啊！"],["林部長右昌：不過委員那個機器是資產。"],["謝委員龍介：只有2.8億就解決了。"],["林部長右昌：機器是資產。"],["謝委員龍介：資產？來，我跟你說，你的機器等到我們要重新發行數位身分證的時候，這些機器還可以使用嗎？沒有人知道。院長，你也不知道這些機器買好了。"],["陳院長建仁：我知道、我知道，機器買好了。"],["謝委員龍介：付錢了嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：但是機器就是……"],["謝委員龍介：總共付多少錢？是不是付4.3億？部長。"],["林部長右昌：這些機器從它進口之後全部都是依照我們相關的規定在做運作，它不使用之後其實就是封存。"],["謝委員龍介：機器就是在整包裡面，又不是你進口的！也是廠商進的，所以我們討論的時候全部會有十億多嘛，你現在卻把機器繳的當作另外繳的，現在說只有2.8，你讓所有臺灣人以為說十億多你「喬」到2.8億，很厲害、真厲害，可以出國比賽！不能這樣啦！"],["林部長右昌：沒有啦，不是，委員不是……"],["謝委員龍介：你如果用這種手法，你要公開跟臺灣人說嘛！這條我們就是賠償了幾億，機器的部分我請教你一下……"],["陳院長建仁：我講一下話好不好？"],["謝委員龍介：好。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，是這樣的，如果我們要用數位ID的時候，我們就要有機器、要有卡片的材料，現在因為數位身分證還沒有要實施，但是這個機器和材料還可以用在其他的用途……"],["謝委員龍介：院長這樣說就對了嘛！"],["林部長右昌：它還有其他的使用用途……"],["謝委員龍介：你最講科學的嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：是啊！"],["謝委員龍介：我問你，這些機器要怎麼保養？你跟我說要放在哪裡？"],["陳院長建仁：這些機器現在是在……"],["謝委員龍介：放在哪裡？"],["林部長右昌：我跟委員報告，我如果沒有記錯，現在機器應該是在中央印製廠，但是它不是就把它封存，它必須要開機，不然機器會壞掉。"],["謝委員龍介：這些機器要開機喔！不然會壞掉喔！各位臺灣鄉親聽到了嗎？還要吹冷氣喔！還不知道可以用多久，還要再維修喔！沒有啦，不要這樣啦！我跟你講……"],["林部長右昌：它不是維修，是低度讓它運轉。"],["謝委員龍介：我們說保養，保養啦！不要說維修啦！"],["林部長右昌：讓它維持一個良好的狀態。"],["謝委員龍介：低度運轉？院長我跟你說，因為當時所有的團體各界都說有個資問題，我知道這不是你的決策。"],["陳院長建仁：隱私問題。"],["謝委員龍介：明明有這個問題，卻還是硬要去做，硬要去做！"],["陳院長建仁：在110年的時候就決定暫緩了。"],["謝委員龍介：對，110年時就是你們好朋友賴清德，現在的賴總統，人不怕犯錯，但遇到事情要面對，院長這就是標準的「吃緊弄破碗」，你有這樣覺得嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有啦！當初在溝通的過程中……"],["謝委員龍介：不管是什麼，現在出來就是要賠這麼多錢，部長，機器是不是4.3億？"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告……"],["謝委員龍介：是不是付了4.3億？"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告一下，因為這一個政策其實是一個持續性、從民國101年的時候就開始……"],["謝委員龍介：部長，你花了多少錢你都沒有要向臺灣人報告。"],["林部長右昌：沒有，剛剛委員已經講過了，因為這個機器是採購……"],["謝委員龍介：採購多少錢嘛！你怎麼這樣？為什麼不能講呢？"],["林部長右昌：委員剛剛已經講過了……"],["謝委員龍介：有保密條款嗎？"],["林部長右昌：沒有，委員剛剛已經講過了。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，那我講的對不對啊？我說用4億3,000萬買機器，對不對？"],["林部長右昌：這個數字我再跟委員確認，不過這個數字應該……我們有支付買機器的款項。"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！確實有買機器。"],["謝委員龍介：我跟國人報告，院長你要瞭解、你要去查嘛！要去瞭解一下。"],["陳院長建仁：有啦！有買機器是事實。"],["林部長右昌：這個本來就有啊！剛剛都跟委員說明了。"],["謝委員龍介：當時在協議的時候就是包括買機器、維修、租金還有作業費，所以大約十億多，但你們現在讓我們理解的是全部只有2億8，只有2億8,000萬，所以我們已經降低損失了，不要這樣啦！部長，這是態度問題嘛！這也不是你任內的政策嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：不是啦！這機器還能用、材料也還能用……"],["謝委員龍介：你要來的時候就買完了，對不對？"],["林部長右昌：對，我到任的時候就已經採購完了。"],["謝委員龍介：那為什麼不能把真相讓國人理解？"],["林部長右昌：委員，這個之前都已經公開說明過了。"],["謝委員龍介：我問問看臺灣人，看哪一個會知道，現在院長瞭解的跟臺灣人聽到的是不一樣的，這件事情等於我們要賠償2億8給廠商，但我們也已經付給他四億多機器的費用，這些機器還要維修、還要低度運轉，幾年後不知道我們還要不要做這個身分證，這些機器等於沒用了，你現在還在讓它運轉，所以沒有虧損，機器買來備用，你是學科學的，我覺得這樣……"],["陳院長建仁：因為我學科學，所以這機器現在還有在備用就是可以用啊！"],["謝委員龍介：院長，好，你說還在用，如果到時不能用，所有多出來的費用你要負責嗎？不可能叫你負責嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：我剛剛就說過，這個智慧數位ID本來就還在持續溝通當中嘛！"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你保證3年內不會做，那3年後這些機器要怎麼辦？不要只推給後面的人。院長，整個決策過程，為了數位身分證這件事情，你可以代表政府向臺灣人民道歉一下嗎？這個決策就是我所謂的「呷緊弄破碗」，道歉就好，說一聲抱歉你覺得有需要嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這件事情當初在決定的時候，確確實實在溝通的時候大家有不同的意見，所以政府目前是暫緩實施，未來持續溝通以後再看結果是怎麼樣，到目前為止，確實讓大家等了好久，但還是沒有實施啦！"],["謝委員龍介：你會覺得不好意思嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得政府針對這一點當然要向民眾表達確實在溝通過程當中沒有那麼順利。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有那麼順利？一句抱歉這麼難說出口嗎？我認為這根本沒什麼，前面的人做的決策，你今天只要說一聲抱歉，這是代表你的高度，我是長期以來都很欣賞你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那個報告裡面...不是啦,你們當機時是正在...我現在不是要跟你說過去的事情啦,那已經是大熱嘛,你現在看到這個蘇丹洪的東西這麼嚴重,你就知道我請教你,因為我要你去調查過去有這個案例有沒有?"},{"start":182.449,"end":191.535,"text":"海關檢到要求退關的時候,若沒有退關,有考決,變贏一個,變更名稱：有退關："},{"start":198.263,"end":208.686,"text":"你傾斷全部都不提案?這個蘇丹紅這件事齁,若是有這個辣椒粉我怕喝到蘇丹紅,你就要退關。退關... 你的補充說什麼?你的補充說,還會知道你們大家都很愛吃香的,我感覺你的補充因這個事情,多的東西都親眼分開呢?"},{"start":221.65,"end":222.851,"text":"我現在要請教你"},{"start":244.986,"end":246.967,"text":"新聞證的事你知道吧?"},{"start":246.967,"end":249.367,"text":"我知道你說電子身份證嗎?"},{"start":249.367,"end":266.752,"text":"是的,好,要講我錢證。 今天還是很嚴重啦。 那個林博電給我看,請教理一下,來。 麻煩你。 一定有一些細節我不知道了解不了解。 有啦,這我知道有這個... 現在我們大家聽到的,理解到就是說我們要賠償2.8億啊。"},{"start":271,"end":281.925,"text":"您對國防發布的不是賠償,是降低損失。但是我請教,我本席所接觸到的不是2.8億。您還有付一條4月3日給人家。你可不可以知道?委員你說4月3日是到期報告。所以我請教你,沒錯嗎?"},{"start":299.073,"end":323.26,"text":"二、二點八億有沒有包括那些機器?機器是現在已經存在的。機器存在?沒有啦,機器存在開多少錢?你給我說一下。機器存在因為它是已經支付出去,已經是架構機器。你把副機器的錢連外國,本來我們在說的全部十億多的就是包括機器喔。"},{"start":324.707,"end":346.018,"text":"你現在說我們只降到2.8億,讓我們感覺好像你很會做事啊,只有2.8億就解決了啊。 機器是資產啊。 資產,來我告訴你,你的機器等到我們要重新發行數位身份證的時候,這機器可不可以用錢?"},{"start":347.503,"end":355.767,"text":"這些機器從它進口之後都全部都是依照我們相關的規定在做運作。它不使用之後其實就是封存。"},{"start":375.407,"end":383.651,"text":"所以,我們討論的時候,全部會有10億多嘛。 啊,你現在要跟我們說,我們不會認出來,我們不會出來說,只有2.8億。 你讓所有的台灣人,假設說10億多,你喬到2.8億,很高,很高,可以出國比賽。 不是這樣。 如果用這種手法,你要公開跟台灣人說嘛。"},{"start":399.583,"end":428.703,"text":"這條我們就是要整個那機器來我請教你我講一個好嗎機器好來好委員是這樣如果我們要用數位ID的時候我們就要有那個機器嘛要有那個卡片的材料當然現在因為這個數位數位身份證還沒有要實施但是這個機器含這個材料還可以用在其他的用具你就這樣就對了嘛對他還有其他使用用具你說最可恨的嘛是啊我告訴你"},{"start":430.723,"end":436.425,"text":"這台機器要怎麼保用?你告訴我,要放在哪裡?這台機器現在是在...放在哪裡?這台機器要開機嗎?不然會破機嗎?"},{"start":453.797,"end":456.298,"text":"因為當時所有的團體各界都說有各自問題 這不是你的國籍我知道"},{"start":484.665,"end":498.034,"text":"隱私問題啦,隱私問題。 有這個問題拿走下去,拿走下去。 180年的時候就決定暫緩啦,對啦。 我說的,一八十年後你們好朋友,老兄弟啊,現在的老總統啊,阿人怕翻車嘛,都遇到事情要面對。"},{"start":509.346,"end":518.775,"text":"這就叫做標準的吃緊都破碗,你有感覺嗎?沒有啦,當初在那個溝通的規定中間...不管嘛,溝通的規定現在出來,要了解事情,不對嗎?他還要審視4月3日?"},{"start":525.65,"end":527.271,"text":"是不是負了4.3億啦?"},{"start":527.271,"end":533.375,"text":"各位委員報告一下喔,因為這個政策其實是一個持續性,從民國101年的時候開始回報。沒有,剛剛委員已經講過了,因為這個機器是採購,採購進來的。 採購多少錢嘛?你怎麼這樣咧?為什麼不能講咧?"},{"start":533.375,"end":533.795,"text":"有保密條款嗎?"},{"start":533.795,"end":535.736,"text":"沒有,委員剛剛已經講過了啊。 沒有,我講的對不對啊?"},{"start":554.517,"end":557.305,"text":"我講四月三千萬,副理要買機器對不對啊?"},{"start":559.709,"end":585.571,"text":"這個數字我在跟委員確認,不過這個數字應該,我們有支付這個買機器的一個方向。我跟國人報告,你要了解,你要去查嘛。這個本來就有啊,剛剛都跟委員說明了。當時在協議的時候就是包括買機器、維修、租金還有他的作業費,所以大約10億多。但你們現在讓我們理解就是全部只有2億8。"},{"start":587.637,"end":610.497,"text":"只有2億8千,所以我們已經降低損失,不要這樣啦!不然就太多問題嘛!這也不是你們來的過程嘛!不是啦,這期期還可以贏嘛!你來的時候就買了嘛!對不對?對,我到任的時候當然就已經採購完。那為什麼不能把真相讓國人理解嘛?不過,委員這個之前都已經公開說明過了。"},{"start":616.772,"end":626.875,"text":"我問臺灣人看回一個知識,現在你了解到的,臺灣人聽到是沒感覺。 這件事我們要賠償兩億八給廠商,但我們也已經付給他四億多機器的費用。"},{"start":637.282,"end":648.991,"text":"這機器要維修、要低度運轉,那幾年後不知道我們要做這個身份證,這機器等於脫鉤了,那你現在說我還讓它再運轉,所以沒有虧損,機器買來備用!"},{"start":656.465,"end":658.427,"text":"我給你保證三年來不會做啦"},{"start":685.336,"end":702.013,"text":"三年後就對了,這要繼續做什麼?不要說太多後面的人。 院長,整個決策過程,為了數位身份證這件事情,你能夠代表政府跟臺灣人民合謀一場嗎?"},{"start":702.013,"end":707.919,"text":"這個很難。 我說的所謂吃筋都破碗,不好意思就好了啦,不然這個不好意思你覺得需要嗎?"},{"start":709.467,"end":730.389,"text":"這件事當初在觀點時,恰恰是在溝通時,有大家不同意見。 所以說政府目前是暫緩實施,未來溝通後看能不能持續溝通以後看結果是怎麼樣。 到目前為止確實讓大家等了好久,但是還是沒有實施。"},{"start":731.528,"end":757.347,"text":"你會覺得不好意思嗎?我是覺得說政府當然這點要跟民眾來表達說,其實在溝通的過程當中沒那麼順利。不然是你一句不好意思才不好意思說出來,我們台灣人你看,這沒什麼意義,我一年這沒什麼意義,頭上人的刮青,你今天一個不好意思就對了,是代表你的管道,我是登記對你這麼謙遜的人。"},{"start":760.236,"end":761.677,"text":"包括內政部、內部啦。我們現在就是說所有機器"},{"start":790.276,"end":810.791,"text":"假如最後我們要的方案為什麼會為什麼會因為各自的問題不敢做下去?難道這些機器沒有問題嗎?機器是沒有問題啊。你不要想說全部都兩體的問題而已喔。如果你軟體改到了很周全我告訴你"},{"start":812.256,"end":823.238,"text":"這幾期要再調整,所以我不是在騙你,我是說這件事要讓國人理解不是只有2.8億,已經將近8億多了。沒關係,來進步過這件事,我台南市最近天坑的問題,"},{"start":837.301,"end":838.943,"text":"當然有一些公共工程。那麼這一種預防性的監測來進步進展也有經歷過。"},{"start":855.535,"end":868.328,"text":"是不是要針對國土署來說,你地下是開挖深度超過多少的東西,你要委外公正單位及技術專業單位,來做一個監測。當然身份會提高一些,但是安全的無雙選擇。"},{"start":874.929,"end":876.85,"text":"謝謝委員,因為從那個包括台北市的這個雞胎的這個發生這個事情之後其實一直在討論這個課題。"},{"start":896.294,"end":915.019,"text":"那當然我們相關開挖的規範都有阿你提到說第三方的一個監測我們現在有必要嗎?我們現在正在審慎平衡這一個規範沒有,有沒有必要?我想從安全的...他就說...他就說我們從情社這必要的嘛對啦,但是這個技術...這個在成本...成本減價不會很多啦沒有啦,你就問說這個技術上可以提前超前監測嗎?這就要研議嗎?可以!"},{"start":938.097,"end":945.044,"text":"謝謝謝委員龍介,能不能因為時間已到,我們請行政院給您書面質詢答覆好不好?謝謝陳委員長備詢,也謝謝謝龍介委員質詢。"}]}},{"id":"149713","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149713","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a293890f9c607169691c104b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a64c93c959780201415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:32:44 - 09:48:18","影片長度":"00:15:34","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":934,"end_time":"2024-03-12T09:48:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T09:32:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":100,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（9時32分）主席，我們請陳院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳委員玉珍：相關部會如果有問到就自己上來，不然就讓院長自己回答也可以。"],["陳院長建仁：陳委員早！恭喜陳委員當選連任。"],["陳委員玉珍：院長早！謝謝院長，歡迎再到金門給我們指導。院長，您說過福國利民政策不會因為是看守內閣就不續推嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：是！"],["陳委員玉珍：我們下面有幾件事情，也請院長很快地來協助我們金門地區。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我來聆聽。"],["陳委員玉珍：第一個，金門的大同之家事實上床位非常的擁擠，因為金門人口老年化非常地嚴重，所以大同之家事實上已經是一床難求、一位難求，大概都要等很久。之前在選前的時候，警政署在金門有一個警光會館，使用率非常低，那時候本席曾經請警政署去辦過會勘，要把金門的警光會館轉型成大同之家的二館，讓我們的老年人可以及早進駐。後來我在內政委員會也質詢過林部長，我知道目前的進度，部長那時候說這要等金門縣政府簽公文上來才會往下辦理，據我瞭解金門縣政府已經把相關的計畫送上來了，警政署署長也已經同意了，現在公文是到林部長的手上。部長，案子是到你手上決行就可以了嗎？還是要到我們院長這裡？應該不用吧！"],["陳院長建仁：我們請部長。"],["陳委員玉珍：部長您先回答一下。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員。這個案子還沒有到我的桌上，不過，我詢問最新……"],["陳委員玉珍：據我瞭解署長已經同意了。"],["林部長右昌：我詢問最新的資訊是已經送到部裡面了，我們會儘快簽辦。"],["陳委員玉珍：到您這邊就可以了，這個部長決行就行了？"],["林部長右昌：這個應該到部就可以了。"],["陳委員玉珍：部長，您對這一點會同意嗎？警政署已經同意了，就是把警光會館變成大同之家的二館。"],["林部長右昌：是！"],["陳委員玉珍：我們還是會留一些空間給警政署使用，還是有的。"],["林部長右昌：我想這一部分如果警政署跟金門縣政府已經協調好，原則上我們會來支持，不過就是跟委員報告，後續預算的部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：大家再來討論後面怎麼來整建各方面，謝謝，我們把警光會館就轉型成大同之家二館，讓金門的老年人可以及早入住大同之家。"],["陳院長建仁：這是好事。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，謝謝院長，謝謝院長支持，預算也要支持。","接著國家公園的部分，106年金門國家公園的範圍占了金門全島大概1/4，民眾對這個，因為國家公園當然幫我們做得很好，保存建設也很好，但是也有很多的限制造成居民的不便，不過我們金門一直希望比照澎湖跟馬祖做成風景管理區，現在每5年就有一次通盤檢討，這次第三次通盤檢討是從106年開始，這個通盤檢討因為中間遇到疫情，106年到現在，這個叫做三通，第三次通盤檢討，到目前為止已經進行7年了，不知道進度現在如何？部長。"],["林部長右昌：是，在2月份的時候，民眾跟公民團體提出來的陳情意見大概有112件，目前已經在修正相關書圖的草案，預計是大概3月中左右。"],["陳委員玉珍：3月中就現在。"],["林部長右昌：對，就是大概3月中左右會修正完畢……"],["陳院長建仁：中旬。"],["林部長右昌：中旬左右會修正完畢。"],["陳委員玉珍：會修正完畢？"],["林部長右昌：然後修正完畢之後會提報到內政部國家公園署，然後再轉國家公園委員會來進行審議。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那總共大概還要多久的時間呢？"],["林部長右昌：就看審議的結果。"],["陳委員玉珍：也是你們在審啊！"],["林部長右昌：因為案子滿多的，它有112件。"],["陳委員玉珍：一百多件，請儘速，已經進行7年了，希望520之前可以完成嗎？難道還要拖到……"],["陳院長建仁：一百多件。"],["林部長右昌：因為有一百多件，這個要看……"],["陳委員玉珍：效率要好一點，這個對金門……"],["陳院長建仁：我們加強。"],["陳委員玉珍：效率要好一點，這對金門影響也很大。我剛剛提到馬祖跟澎湖都有辦馬拉松的時候、相關體育活動的時候，都有交通部風景管理區來協助嘛！我們內政部在金門沒有風景管理區，請問院長，我們金門有國家公園，我們金門馬拉松也辦得很不錯，事實上國際的能見度也很高，世界各國也都來參加比賽，是不是在這個部分，以後我們金門縣辦馬拉松，我們國家公園是不是也可以提供相關的協助？參與協辦、經費的支持，院長，這個應該沒有問題吧？"],["陳院長建仁：推動馬拉松是好事，而且讓大家能夠看到美麗的金門國家公園也是好事，這件事情的話我們看內政部這邊……"],["陳委員玉珍：不管在行政方面或是預算方面都請支持。"],["林部長右昌：是，我們樂觀其成，我們也會來協辦，不過也請委員就是比如說包括像體育署，還有包括像運動基金、觀光署……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，這個部分我也會協助，院長這邊也是幫忙交代體育署、觀光署還有交通部這邊也幫忙預算來支持。"],["陳院長建仁：我們跨部會來協調。"],["林部長右昌：我們可以來參與協辦。"],["陳委員玉珍：預算的部分，我們除了協辦以外，我們也需要你們的經費挹注，我們很多事情金門縣政府都是自己比較獨立打拼，大概中央都一直覺得金門縣政府的財政比較好，但是事實上我們擔負了很多的責任，比如說以最近來講的金廈海域事件，金廈海域發生的事件到目前為止協商十幾次以後，現在暫時是告一個段落，我敢說我對這件事情的瞭解算是全面性的，我不只是聽我們官員或者是媒體報導，我事實上當面跟所有的單位都做過，包括海巡執法的當事人，剛好做驗屍的法醫也是我的朋友，還有對岸的家屬，對岸從國臺辦到泉州市臺辦各個單位我都聊過了，所以我想我對這件事情比較有全面性的瞭解。我想請問院長，這事情到今天為止，因為當然第一階段到一個段落，暫時就停下來，但是已經變成一個國際的事件，而且看起來對兩岸的局勢，就變成是一種……局勢就加溫，院長您知道以前有一個金門協議嗎？1990年，您知道這件事嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我知道有這樣的一個金門協議，但是我在這裡跟委員說明一下金廈海域的這個事件，實際上我們海巡署就是為了要確保漁民的權益，還有……"],["陳委員玉珍：這些我都瞭解，我現在只有兩個問題要問，第一個、金廈協議，我只有要問兩個問題，第一個就是說往下是要怎麼處理？用什麼模式處理？這個是解決問題的模式和方法嘛！第二個、以後我們第一線的海巡弟兄們到底要怎麼執勤？這兩個問題才是我們下去要面對的，至於過去已經產生很多紛紛擾擾就慢慢逐項來解決就好，法務部其實速度要加快，事實上影響很大，法務部的速度很重要。"],["陳院長建仁：我想金門快艇案就像這裡講的，一定要等到我們偵辦出爐以後……"],["陳委員玉珍：但是法務部的速度……"],["陳院長建仁：司法偵辦出爐以後……"],["陳委員玉珍：院長，你覺得法務部大概多久可以把這個事情調查出一個初步的段落？"],["陳院長建仁：因為今天法務部……"],["陳委員玉珍：您啦、您啦！您是院長，法務部……"],["陳院長建仁：我當然是愈快愈好。"],["陳委員玉珍：愈快愈好比如說多久？1個月、2個月、3個月？"],["管主任委員碧玲：司法……"],["陳委員玉珍：我問院長。"],["陳院長建仁：我們尊重司法偵辦的時間。"],["陳委員玉珍：當然尊重司法，但是涉及這麼大的國安事件，總要一個時間嘛！押一個時間就好了，你覺得比較合理的要多久？"],["陳院長建仁：我想我沒辦法替……"],["陳委員玉珍：520之前總可以吧？現在都已經3月了。"],["陳院長建仁：我們儘快，我們儘快來辦理。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你也不敢承諾嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：我們儘快來辦理。"],["陳委員玉珍：這是一種決心的表現。"],["陳院長建仁：不是，我們要尊重司法，委員也尊重司法嘛。"],["陳委員玉珍：當然尊重司法，但是你要給它時間……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：這種案子也不是很複雜。"],["陳院長建仁：不是，現在的情況是還需要一些海事鑑定等等的判斷。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，這些東西都應該要加快嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：也不能一件事情遙遙無期，影響到整體的情勢發展。"],["陳院長建仁：當然不會遙遙無期，我們會儘快來辦理。"],["陳委員玉珍：我先問第一個問題，院長您知道金門協議嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我想……"],["陳委員玉珍：陸委會知道，院長知不知道？"],["陳院長建仁：我知道，但是我不曉得……"],["陳委員玉珍：你不知道，陸委會知道吧？"],["陳院長建仁：1990年……"],["陳委員玉珍：陸委會知道，院長不瞭解，如果要處理兩岸事務卻不知道以前跟過去的事情，就很難處理現在跟未來的事情，當初的金門協議，我請問陸委會好了，是不是用這個模式、用兩岸紅十字會的模式、民間的模式來往下處理這件事情？這對整個事件……"],["邱主任委員太三：委員的提案當然是一個可以選擇的項目，委員也知道1990年金門協議之後，其實兩岸簽訂很多的協議，各部會都有很多的合作，包括共打或……"],["陳委員玉珍：我現在是指這件事情。"],["邱主任委員太三：共打犯罪或是其他各部門的協議，海巡署跟他們也有一些協議。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝主委，不用在這邊幫院長上課，我是想請問你，接下去解決這個事情是不是用這個方式比較妥當？以民間紅十字會對紅十字會模式是不是一個比較好的模式？海委會要回答嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，我們瞭解過去海基會與金門地區的紅十字會也好，或者是縣政府也好，或者是在地的人士也好，有很多合作的機會、解決了很多的問題。這一次的案件主要是因為相當程度升高為政治性的困難……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們基本上……"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是未來我們很希望能回到人道。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個問題很簡單，我給你們建議，我覺得基本上所有事情儘量不要上升到臺北這邊去處理，很多事情會變得很難處理，尤其政治化的話，很多事情好難處理。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：我給你們建議，你們參考。第二個我要問比較重要的，因為時間快到了，這個部分海巡弟兄如何執行？我們來看最近大家看到的劉五店海域事件，在這個航道上，大陸的清淤船現在已經進入我國的禁限制水域，有一個橘色框框，有沒有？紫色部分是禁限制水域，橘色是大陸的清淤船在劉五店的水道上面，它已經從我們的烈嶼跟大二膽中間經過，你們知道這件事嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：以後海巡人員遇到這樣的情形，第一線要怎麼執法？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，清淤的範圍是在廈門的海域，不是在我們的禁限制海域。"],["陳委員玉珍：它的船隻已經進入我們的禁限制水域作業了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：清淤之後，它航行未滯留經過禁限制水域，我們都有派船併航。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們有派船，大陸的船可不可以進入我們的禁限制水域做清淤？"],["陳院長建仁：不可以。"],["陳委員玉珍：不可以？誰告訴你不可以？誰告訴你不可以？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這是根據兩岸人民關係條例的……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們要處理大陸事務，連兩岸之間所有的歷史過程都不瞭解！根據交通部104年12月14號交航字的公告，104年12月17號開始實施，運送客貨輪舶經過金門縣禁限制水域進入大陸地區廈門港是被允許的，好嗎？是被允許的！"],["邱主任委員太三：對，委員你提到重點了。"],["陳委員玉珍：陸委會就知道喔！"],["邱主任委員太三：因為雙方當時……"],["陳委員玉珍：你都沒有跟院長……"],["邱主任委員太三：針對劉五店航道，雙方有協議過。"],["陳委員玉珍：這是允許的吧？陸委會怎麼沒有……"],["邱主任委員太三：對，所以才會有這張公文。"],["陳委員玉珍：陸委會你們現在遇到所有的問題都是一樣，你們都沒有做跨部會的協商，你看海委會不知道，它認為這不被允許，院長也不知道，很多事情在陸委會沒有充分告知其他相關部會很多的法律規定以後，在第一線執行的海巡人員非常辛苦，他們不知道有一些規定是可以的、有一些可能是不行的。"],["邱主任委員太三：我的理解……"],["陳委員玉珍：陸委會很瞭解，你知道這個東西吧？"],["邱主任委員太三：我知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：你知道嘛！所以你知道。"],["邱主任委員太三：應該是一百零幾年的時候協商的。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，104年的公告，你知道！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你不要急，這件事情如果是這樣的話，我們會希望相關的規定，讓海巡的弟兄能夠瞭解……"],["陳委員玉珍：我要講的事情……"],["陳院長建仁：然後怎麼樣的協議……"],["管主任委員碧玲：不過，跟委員報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：院長，我覺得現在的問題，我從這件事件……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們都沒有在這個過程之中有產生衝突跟對立。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個是另外一件事情，我現在要問的是因為第一線海巡人員要執法非常辛苦，他們到底要怎麼執法，什麼是可以的，什麼是不可以的，應該是驅離、帶回來，還是趕走，還是怎麼樣，這個很難執法，因為對法令有一些……舊的東西很多，過去的東西不熟悉嘛！不熟悉就是，院長，我從這次的事件中，我發現你們跨部會的協商事實上非常弱的，你們這個一定要加強，尤其面對這麼重要的，尤其有關兩岸關係的事情的時候，有很多過去我們跟大陸累積很多的善意，有很多相關的法律規定事實上是可以解決很多問題的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以這4艘疏濬船都沒有衝突……"],["陳委員玉珍：包括例子，包括怎麼樣去溝通，這些都是可以解決問題的，有時候不一定要走到那麼劍拔弩張的地步，金廈水域這麼小的事、一點點事情，以前是金廈往來實在太密切了，結果變成臺海的大事，變成國際的大事，所以我建議跨部會的協商以後一定要進行，因為在我溝通這整個事件過程中，我發現部會彼此間對很多事情都沒有做充分的溝通，院長，這個您可能要……雖然還剩下二個多月，還是要努力。"],["陳院長建仁：這個我們來加強部會之間的溝通。"],["陳委員玉珍：一定要，尤其這件事情我還是建議你們再多開個會，下去怎麼協商，我是建議走紅十字會的模式，民間對民間，不管你要用哪個單位。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，其實委員大概也知道，這個原來已經談到一定的程度，有的有共識，有的他們……"],["陳委員玉珍：對啦！但是我也希望有的人不要……"],["邱主任委員太三：基於政治上的堅持，所以才會各自回去請示。"],["陳委員玉珍：院長，你也不要得到……"],["邱主任委員太三：所以還是會繼續進行。"],["陳委員玉珍：院長，你也要得到正確的資訊，據我所知，大陸並沒有在談判過程中、協商過程中的會談紀實裡要求說要把我們這些海巡弟兄送到大陸去送審，絕對沒有這件事情……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你怎麼看得到呢？"],["陳委員玉珍：你也去問一下海巡這中間的過程，這細部內幕……"],["陳院長建仁：談判是秘密的啦！談判是該保持機密的……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有這件事……"],["陳院長建仁：既然委員也會知道，我覺得這個機密好像就沒有被遵守。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道的不是這樣子，我知道對方並沒有告訴我全部，但是我也不是只從……院長，你不瞭解，我不是只有從大陸瞭解事情，我也從臺灣瞭解事情啦！"],["陳院長建仁：我想會談是機密的。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我也是用這個事情充分解決，所以不想要再起波瀾。"],["陳院長建仁：是要保密的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們在這個過程之中……"],["陳委員玉珍：我再請問一下陸委會一件事情……"],["管主任委員碧玲：都謹守不對外去說明整個談判的過程。"],["陳院長建仁：對外說明是不好的啦！要保密。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們都有謹守這個約定。"],["陳委員玉珍：對啦！應該要保密，所以海基會……"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以才會大家以為說為什麼拖那麼久，整個談判過程，我們都不對外透露。"],["陳委員玉珍：有一些人不能隨便說話，有說的事情就是有，沒有說的事情就是沒有，不要在兩岸加柴火了，不要再火上加油了。"],["陳院長建仁：對，委員，我想很重要的，該保密的要保密。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委，陸客開放到金門，沒有問題吧？"],["邱主任委員太三：我想在去年的8月24號就已經公布了，希望雙方能夠對等的……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以沒問題，就等大陸對吧？"],["邱主任委員太三：大陸到現在都沒有任何的表示。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們這些沒問題，對吧？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上我們的原則還是一樣，8月24號對等的來看待。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，沒問題，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員玉珍的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第4位謝委員龍介質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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。 那這個總共大概還要多久的時間呢?"},{"start":227.512,"end":232.375,"text":"就看這個審議的結果。因為案子蠻多的,他有112件。這個請禁訴,已經進行7年了。希望520之前可以完成嗎?因為有100多件。效率好一點。我們加強啦。"},{"start":244.562,"end":244.582,"text":"﹚記者"},{"start":264.091,"end":264.792,"text":"不管在行政方面或是預算方面都請支持。"},{"start":290.174,"end":319.224,"text":"我們樂觀其成我們也會來協辦不過也請委員就是比如說包括像體育部體育署還有包括像這個運動基金觀光署院長這邊也是幫忙交代體育署還有交通部這邊也幫忙預算來協調我們可以來參與協辦預算的部分我們除了協辦以外我們也需要你們的經費移除我們很多事情金門縣政府都是自己比較獨立打拚大家中央都一直覺得金門縣政府的這個"},{"start":319.964,"end":319.984,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":335.963,"end":351.812,"text":"我敢說我對這件事情的瞭解算是全面性的,我不只是只有聽我們官員或者是媒體報導,我事實上當面跟所有的單位都做過,包括海巡執法的當事人,包括"},{"start":352.312,"end":352.412,"text":"﹚陳玉珍"},{"start":382.332,"end":383.114,"text":"您知道以前有一個金門協議嗎?"},{"start":383.114,"end":384.317,"text":"1990年你知道這件事嗎?"},{"start":393.254,"end":406.605,"text":"我知道有這樣的一個基本協議,但是我在這裡跟委員說明一下這一個金夏海域的這個事件,實際上我們海巡署就是為了要確保這一個漁民的潛意識。我現在只有兩個問題要問,第一個金夏協議我就要問兩個問題,第一個就是說往下是要怎麼處理?"},{"start":412.91,"end":436.456,"text":"用什麼模式處理?這個是解決問題的模式和方法。第二個是說以後我們第一線的海巡弟兄們到底要怎麼執勤?這兩個問題才是我們下去要面對的。自己過去已經產生很多紛紛擾擾就慢慢逐項來解決。法務部其實速度要加快事實上影響很大。法務部的速度很重要。我想金門快艇案就像這裡講的就是一定要等到我們這一個"},{"start":438.676,"end":466.047,"text":"但是法務部的速度,法務部院長,你有沒有覺得法務部大概多久可以把這個事情調查出一個大概一個初步的段落?因為今天法務部﹖您啊,您啊,你是院長,法務部沒有當你啊。我是當然是越快越好。越快越好,比如說多久?一個月、兩個月、三個月?這個司法,我們尊重司法偵辦的時間。當然尊重司法,但是有這個涉及這麼大的國安事件的總要一個時間嘛,壓一個時間就好了。你要多久你覺得比較合理的?"},{"start":466.807,"end":484.83,"text":"我想我沒有辦法替...520之前總是可以吧,現在都已經3月了。我們盡快,我們盡快來辦。所以你也不敢承諾嗎?這是一種決心的表現。這個我們要尊重司法,委員會是尊重司法嘛。但是你要給他時間來個案子辦得要,這種案子也不是很複雜。"},{"start":485.811,"end":496.002,"text":"那現在的情況就是說還需要一些海事鑑定啊等等的判判嗎?那這些東西都應該要加快嘛那也不能一件事情遙遙無期嘛影響到整體的儀式發展嘛那我先問第一個問題那個院長您知道這個進門協議嗎?"},{"start":502.222,"end":530.74,"text":"陸委會知道,院長知不知道?我知道,但是我不曉得。你不知道,陸委會知道吧?好知道,來我想請問,陸委會知道,院長不了解,這個有點,如果要處理兩岸事務,不知道以前跟過去的事情,就很難處理現在跟未來的事情。今天協議,其實當初,那我想說,我請問陸委會好了,是不是用這個模式,下去是用這個模式,用兩岸這個紅十字會這個模式,民間的這個模式來往下處理這件事情,這樣是因為整個事件。"},{"start":532.36,"end":560.632,"text":"委員的提案當然是一個可以選擇的項目了那委員大家也知道1990年金門協議之後呢其實兩岸簽訂了很多的協議各部會都有很多的合作我現在是在指這一件事情 包括共打犯罪啦或者是其他各部門的協議海巡署跟他們也有一些協議主委謝謝不用在這邊幫院長上課我是想請問你下去解決這個事情是不是用這個方式民間的方式來紅十字會對紅十字會的模式是不是一個比較好的模式海委會要回答嗎"},{"start":562.133,"end":580.985,"text":"報告委員我們了解過去海基會與金門地區的紅十字會也好或者是縣政府也好或者是在地的人士也好有很多合作的機會然後解決了很多的問題那這一次的案件主要是因為相當程度有升高為政治性的"},{"start":584.728,"end":605.64,"text":"我跟你們建議這樣子,我覺得基本上所有事情盡量你不要上升到這個臺北這邊去處理的話,很多事情就變得很難處理。政治化的話,很多事情好難處理。只是我跟你們建議,你們參考。第二個,我要問的比較重要,因為時間快到。這個下去海巡弟兄如何執行?那我們看到最近比較,大家比較看到的是最近這個劉武電的這個事件。"},{"start":607.941,"end":610.763,"text":"您知道這件事嗎?以後海巡人員遇到這樣的事情,第一線要怎麼執法?"},{"start":632.056,"end":633.578,"text":"大陸船可不可以進入我們的近線制水域?做清淤?"},{"start":633.578,"end":635.059,"text":"不可以啊。 不可以?誰告訴你不可以?"},{"start":655.308,"end":660.689,"text":"這是根據兩岸人民關係條例的計劃。根據交通部104年12月14日交行制,有一個公告。104年12月17日要開始實施。運送客貨輪迫經過金銜之水進入大陸地區下門港是被允許的。"},{"start":683.906,"end":684.986,"text":"錄委會,你們現在遇到什麼問題都是一樣?"},{"start":697.671,"end":720.613,"text":"你們都沒有做跨部會的協商,你看海委會他不知道,他認為這個不被允許,院長也不知道,然後很多事情在陸委會沒有充分的告知其他的相關部會的很多法律規定以後,在第一線執行的海軍人員非常的辛苦。他們不知道有一些規定是可以的,有一些可能是不行的。那你陸委會很了解這個,你知道這個東西嗎?我知道。你知道了齁,所以你知道了。"},{"start":721.974,"end":722.655,"text":"我現在問的是因為第一線海巡人員要執法非常辛苦。"},{"start":746.678,"end":765.698,"text":"他們到底要怎麼執法,什麼是可以的什麼是不可以的,應該是驅離啊、帶回來還是趕走還是怎麼樣,這個很難執法,因為對法令有一些舊的東西很多齁,過去的東西不熟悉嘛,不熟悉就是,院長我從這次的這個事件中我發現你們跨部位的協商市場非常弱的。"},{"start":766.218,"end":783.303,"text":"您們這個一定要加強尤其面對這麼重要的尤其有關兩岸關係的事情的時候有很多過去我們跟大陸累積很多的善意然後事實上有很多相關的法令規定喔事實上是可以解決很多問題的包括例子包括怎麼樣去溝通這些都是可以解決問題的有時候不一定要走到那麼劍拔弩張那個地步這麼驚嚇所謂的小事"},{"start":791.906,"end":792.066,"text":"﹚陳玉珍"},{"start":809.747,"end":812.108,"text":"委員其實委員大家也知道這個其實原來已經談得到一定的程度有的有共識有的"},{"start":830.812,"end":857.003,"text":"對啦,但是我,我也希望,我也希望有的人不要,院長你也不要得到,院長你也要得到正確的資訊,據我所知勒,大陸並沒有在那個談判過程中齁,協商過程中的那個,溝通過程中那個什麼會談計時要求說要把我們這家海巡送到大陸去送審,絕對沒有這件事情,你也去問一下海巡這中間的過程,這細部內部,"},{"start":859.425,"end":874.301,"text":"談判是要保持機密的,那既然委員也會知道,我覺得這個機密好像就沒有被遵守。我知道的不是這樣子,我知道對方並沒有告訴我全部,但是我也不是只有從大陸了解事情,我也從台灣了解事情。"},{"start":878.766,"end":879.307,"text":"主委,這個陸客開放到金門啊?"},{"start":908.65,"end":913.195,"text":"謝謝陳委員玉珍的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第四位,謝委員龍介質詢。"}]}},{"id":"149712","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149712","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a2938cd0a91878369495d04b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a6e3de8b0d8230918a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"09:16:56 - 09:32:37","影片長度":"00:15:41","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":941,"end_time":"2024-03-12T09:32:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T09:16:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":58,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（9時17分）院長早安，有請陳院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：范委員早，恭喜你當選連任。"],["范委員雲：院長早安。今天的主題是如何建構一個真正平等、沒有歧視的社會。首先我要謝謝院長大仁哥，您真的是溫暖內閣，我看到您已經有一個很重要的貢獻，就是上次記得我總質詢的時候讓無家者在我們的議場現身，您看到之後，我們也討論了相關的問題，您當時就立刻承諾我們的社會救助法真的需要好好地修，衛福部也承諾在今年5月會提出。雖然您一直不願意繼續擔任我們的院長，但我相信、希望也能在您卸任前提出，我想這是一個非常重要的、溫暖的法案，它會接住我們的貧窮人口，因為過去設下了太多的重重障礙。所以我謝謝大仁哥，讓我們一起打造這個溫暖的社會，也希望院長監督衛福部提出來的草案要能夠讓大家滿意。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我一定會努力來請他們即時提出。我也要跟委員報告，新舊內閣一定是無縫接軌。"],["范委員雲：好，我也期待無縫接軌，所以今天有一個新的議題，也希望溫暖內閣大仁哥可以關注。我想陳俊翰律師的離開非常地突然……"],["陳院長建仁：我們都不捨。"],["范委員雲：大家都非常地遺憾跟難過，我去年認識他，也非常地敬佩他，因為很多人說、我想他也是臺灣的霍金，他擁有美國雙重的法律、會計執照。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["范委員雲：我聽到他母親說，他其實有機會跟他的同學一樣在世界銀行工作，但是他選擇回臺灣，就是希望為臺灣的人權努力，雖然我們在罕病的醫療資源、無障礙環境其實都不如國外。他離開之後，我們看到蔡總統特別給他褒忠令，蔡總統說：「他離世是臺灣社會的巨大損失，俊翰的志業就交給我們繼續來實現。」這是蔡總統講的。我們賴清德副總統、未來的總統也說：「落實俊翰理想、抱負，將持續實踐他推動的法案。」所以我想不管是現任或者是下一個行政院、下一個內閣，包含我們立法委員，這是我組成的超過10位，有12位為下一代而戰的國會連線，我們在開記者會前一天突然知道他離世，我們也非常難過，我們也說會記住他是我們一起的候選人，我們一起努力，完成他的遺志。不管是蔡總統、未來的賴總統，還有我們的立委都說要繼承陳俊翰律師的遺志，但是今天就想跟院長討論，到底我們如何繼承他的遺志。這邊我想放一個俊翰律師自己講的59秒影像，讓他繼續在我們這兒現身。","（播放影片）"],["范委員雲：我想院長看了這一段話應該會跟我一樣覺得很羞愧，他說他在國外讀書的經驗，發現國外真的是把障礙者當人看，回想我們在臺灣好像是第三世界國家，今天他放棄了國外的工作機會，回到對他個人很不利的環境，所以我們到底如何才能夠讓臺灣脫離障礙者的第三世界國家，不把障礙者當人看？","我們就回來看，臺灣有多少障礙者，不知道院長知不知道？"],["陳院長建仁：大概有上百萬，看他嚴重的程度有不同。"],["范委員雲：對，依據政府的統計有120萬，這個不包括像我母親，她是因為老化出門要用輪椅，所以這種輪椅的老化失能者沒有包括在裡面就有120萬，如果1個家庭1個障礙者有3個家人或是3.5個好了，其實全國就有超過500萬個身障者及其家屬，還不包括像我母親這樣子的狀況，我們看到他會遇到怎麼樣的狀況，如果她是懷孕生產女性的話，我這邊這個照片是我親自訪問的身障媽媽陳青琪，他是生命教育學院院長，常常在全國用生命教育演講，她先生是視障，她生小孩的時候必須從新莊坐公車去基隆，只是為了產檢，你可以想像有多辛苦。"],["陳院長建仁：很辛苦。"],["范委員雲：因為整個新北沒有一個她能夠調整的產台，她順利生下平安健康的小孩，整個生產的過程自己要洗澡、幫孩子洗澡，先生視障，其實會是非常大的工程，所以懷孕期間沒有個人助理，也沒有更多的個人助理，她都沒有辦法安心生產。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["范委員雲：你就可以看到女性的身分在懷孕生產期間會遇到的問題。我們看到俊翰，我們知道他在求學的時間表現優異，可是俊翰遇到的情況是什麼？他參加大學考試每科只能延長20分鐘，而且他必須要一直極力爭取，後來才能夠口述代筆，可是他在美國考律師執照遇到的是考務中心主動到他下榻的飯店跟他報告說明，還安排他到考場，而且只要他簽署一張不會洩題，就讓他前一天開始考試，因為多給他一天考試，別人考兩天，他考三天，這樣子能夠讓他有充分的時間完成申論題，俊翰律師說他當時考大學的時候，其實他每題都會寫，可是時間不夠。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["范委員雲：所以這是一個很大的問題，他讀書期間，俊翰律師也說他必須要自己拜託麻煩同學做筆記，可是他到哈佛大學的時候校方請他提早報告，為他專門開會召集各部門，校方更聘請替俊翰做筆記的同學，而且全程保密兼顧學生的隱私。從這兩個例子來看，特別是俊翰律師的，難怪他會認為臺灣是第三世界國家。","我想提醒院長的是，身心障礙者其實是多重身分的，他不是只有一個身障者身分，就像剛剛講的女性遇到生產甚至要到外縣市大醫院，因為產台的問題。原住民也跟我陳情，他們有雙重弱勢身分，可是我們的國家要求他二選一，所以他經常不能夠確定哪一個身分對他是比較好的選擇。針對經濟弱勢，政府有補助輔具，可是政府卻不補助維修，經濟弱勢者遇到維修沒有錢付時，輔具就等於報廢了。多元性別會遇到居服員、個人助理意識訓練不足。我在偏鄉也遇到1位陳情者，他為了等輔具維修，排不上時間在家3個月，他的輪椅沒有辦法使用，無法出門，這是我們臺灣的處境。請問院長，我們兩位現在跟未來的總統都說要繼承陳俊翰律師的遺志，你覺得我們如何可以繼承他的遺志？"],["陳院長建仁：CRPD的法案實際上在臺灣已經國內法化，而且陸陸續續的按照這樣的精神來做，但是就如同委員所提的，我們有很多還需要再加強、還需要再精進的地方，我們會往這個方向來努力，包括剛才你講的就學、就養，還有就業的這些部分都有需要加強的地方。"],["范委員雲：謝謝院長，其實您真的非常關心這個議題，您已經知道答案了，答案就是我們的身心障礙者權益保障法已經十幾年沒有修了，這次修法真的必須要符合，我們已經簽署掛在衛福部網站上都可以看到細節的身心障礙者權利公約（CRPD）。我想請問院長知不知道身權法要怎麼修才能夠符合CRPD國際公約呢？因為我們上一屆修到一半，後來就停下來了，因為彼此的落差很大，這次如果我們要符合CRPD的話應該要怎麼做，這個法要怎麼修才能符合呢？"],["陳院長建仁：有兩個很重要的部分，第一個，由衛福部來蒐集民間以及立法院的一些意見。第二個，我們有CRPD的國際專家學者審查，他也提供了很多寶貴的意見，我們看看國外的意見是怎麼樣，我們一起來修，因為這部分滿細節的，不過我想聆聽看看委員寶貴的意見。"],["范委員雲：謝謝院長，您剛剛講的也都對，你是講程序上這麼做，我們來看看實質，以我的整理有5個重點，第一個，障礙者要能為自己做決定，要落實「如果沒有我的參與，不要為我做決定」，因為只有障礙者才知道他的需求是什麼，當時修法的爭議，在我的版本中針對相關機制要有二分之一的障礙者代表，當時至少衛福部聽起來沒有被說服。第二個，個人助理服務時數要充足，最近我也聽到陳媽媽講，譬如俊翰吃飯可能需要兩小時，可是吃飯的助理時數只能給他半小時，所以他要再用一個半小時就要拿他的個人助理的其他時數來用，其實對家屬來講，我們都看到陳媽媽幾乎全天候在照顧他，連喘息的空間都沒有，所以個人助理服務時數，我想院長很瞭解，也就是我們要不要拿出資源來協助的問題。","第三個，障礙者要能夠在地自立生活，所以相關的環境很重要，不是讓它機構化，機構不應該是唯一的選項。第四個，很多障礙者跟我陳情，臺灣的高科技能力可以做到很好的輔具，可是都是出口，因為臺灣本地沒有市場，就是因為政府的補助經費太少，他們甚至在臺灣買不到臺灣廠商生產的高科技輔具，所以高科技輔具的提供，就像我剛剛講的，我們補助輔具，可是卻沒有補助維修，這也是不應該的。最後，就是我所講的，我們所有相關的機制應該要看到多重弱勢者，而不是讓他們自己在不同的系統之間被踢皮球，甚至被迫做選擇。這五點也是我們最近為下一代而戰，希望跟您一起提出的集體訴求，在這次行政院的版本本身一定要符合CRPD國際公約，因為上一次修法已經是17年前，我們2017年簽署的CRPD國際公約之後，本來就應該全面的檢視。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["范委員雲：這部法是首當其衝，我想從衛福部到內政部也有很多相關的領域，如果這個母法通過之後，超過500萬的身障家屬，如果再加上像我們這種家中有長輩的，這真的是一個很龐大的、超過一半的人口數會受惠於這麼重要的法案，院長覺得能夠承諾嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們一定會努力地請衛福部收集相關的意見，還有民間修法的建議，儘快提出修法的版本，更重要的，我也希望在整個制定的過程當中，在大院也能夠得到朝野黨團大家的協助，真的好好來幫助所有需要幫助的身心障礙者，我想這是政府的責任，我們責無旁貸，一定會努力儘快地來提出修法。"],["范委員雲：所以您承諾行政院會提出符合CRPD的身權法，謝謝院長，真的是溫暖內閣。我也想問時間點啦，因為其實我們上一屆行政院就有版本，所以不需要很多時間嘛……"],["陳院長建仁：對！屆期不續審。"],["范委員雲：您是溫暖內閣，我很希望您是不是能夠敦促衛福部加速處理，當然如果可以跟其他的部會進行相關的討論，譬如說旅館的規範、各種規範等，內政部也管了非常多的場地，那是不是可以給我們一個時間點，能不能在520之前就提出呢？"],["陳院長建仁：我們來試試看。"],["范委員雲：試試看？"],["陳院長建仁：我們全力以赴啦！"],["范委員雲：這邊真的謝謝院長的承諾，對於您的努力，我想您是真的願意努力，我希望我們的溫暖內閣留下這兩項非常重要的政策，是您任內承諾、推動，甚至能夠提出草案的版本，也請院長一起用力的監督衛福部，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["范委員雲：謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員、謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第3位陳委員玉珍質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.14346875,"end":12.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.704093750000002,"end":14.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.290343750000002,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.53846875,"end":21.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.449718750000002,"end":21.192218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.664718750000002,"end":22.559093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.23409375,"end":33.915968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.704718750000005,"end":95.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.24034375000001,"end":64.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.30721875,"end":102.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.73221875,"end":143.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.24909375,"end":117.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.15034375,"end":127.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.63721875000002,"end":174.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.36221875,"end":195.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.54784375,"end":176.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.05096875,"end":214.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.45721875,"end":222.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.15221875,"end":223.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.13096875000002,"end":225.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.44284375,"end":229.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.83471875,"end":246.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.96284375000002,"end":255.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.43409375000002,"end":258.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.09596875,"end":262.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.96034375,"end":272.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.10221875,"end":275.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.34221875000003,"end":287.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.07971875000004,"end":282.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.40034375,"end":282.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.20971875000004,"end":312.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.11284375,"end":318.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.80409375,"end":318.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.74909375000004,"end":405.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.11221875,"end":344.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.52909375,"end":377.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.44534375,"end":399.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.90846875000005,"end":457.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.90909375,"end":455.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.99346875000003,"end":456.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.55034375,"end":456.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.06909375000004,"end":546.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.9665937500001,"end":558.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":558.3740937499999,"end":583.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":584.44596875,"end":587.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.41596875,"end":634.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":627.15659375,"end":627.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":634.5478437500001,"end":657.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.73409375,"end":782.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.1909687500001,"end":704.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.0090937500001,"end":734.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":764.9578437499999,"end":766.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":782.71034375,"end":835.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":834.43221875,"end":865.4484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":865.41471875,"end":879.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":879.2353437500001,"end":882.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":879.7078437500002,"end":903.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":882.96471875,"end":883.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":903.11346875,"end":908.7665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":905.4253437500001,"end":907.5515937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":908.98596875,"end":924.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":932.32409375,"end":940.2890937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.655,"end":31.584,"text":"院長早安,有請陳院長。再請陳院長備刑。院長早安,那今天的主題是如何建構一個真正平等沒有歧視的社會。下一頁。"},{"start":36.068,"end":62.887,"text":"首先我要謝謝院長大仁哥您真的是溫暖內閣我看到您已經有一個很重要的貢獻就是上次記得我總質詢的時候讓無家者在我們的議場現身您看到之後我們也討論了相關的問題您當時就立刻承諾我們的社會救助法真的是需要好好的修衛福部也承諾"},{"start":63.447,"end":80.885,"text":"在今年5月會提出,雖然您一直不願意繼續擔任我們的院長,但我相信希望也能在您卸任前能夠提出。我想這是一個非常重要的溫暖的法案,因為它會接住我們的貧窮人口。"},{"start":81.385,"end":82.546,"text":"我一定會努力來請他們及時提出"},{"start":99.266,"end":117.236,"text":"那我也要跟委員報告,新舊內閣一定是無縫接軌。好,我也期待無縫接軌,所以今天有一個新的議題,也希望溫暖內閣大人哥可以關注。我想陳俊漢律師的離開非常的突然,那大家都非常的遺憾跟難過。"},{"start":118.317,"end":146.329,"text":"我去年認識他所以非常的敬佩他。因為很多人說我想他也是臺灣的禍金。他擁有美國的雙重的法律會計。他其實有機會我聽到他母親說跟他的同學一樣在世界銀行工作。但是他選擇回臺灣就是希望為臺灣的人權努力。雖然我們在喊病的醫療資源無障礙環境其實都不如國外。"},{"start":146.949,"end":174.389,"text":"那下一頁喔那他離開之後我們有看到蔡總統特別給他包中令蔡總統說他離世是臺灣社會的巨大損失那俊翰的志業就交給我們繼續來實現這蔡總統講的我們賴清德副總統未來的總統也說落實俊翰理想抱負將持續實踐他推動的法案所以我想不管是現任或者是下一個"},{"start":175.401,"end":196.015,"text":"總統"},{"start":196.015,"end":196.415,"text":"下一頁下一頁"},{"start":215.712,"end":226.804,"text":"這邊我想放一個俊翰律師自己講的59秒的影像,讓他繼續在我們這現身。有這樣的機會,那就好好把我朋友的腦殼給弄好。"},{"start":230.058,"end":258.118,"text":"這樣的採訪對陳俊漢來說獨創失利,更何況是遠赴美國求學了,但在異國他獲得前所未有的尊重與友善對待,讓原本在臺灣學公司法、商業證券法一小時能賺進幾萬塊收入的他,決定走向不同的路。我一路以來本來就有一直在爭取這一些就自己本來就在臺灣的教育環境之下,其實每一關都是靠自己去努力一個一個突破,所以是"},{"start":259.299,"end":274.785,"text":"其實一接觸到國外的那種事就真的就是會覺得衝擊很大,感觸很深。會覺得好像國外真的是把那個障礙者當成人看待,然後我們在這邊好像是那個第三世界的國家。"},{"start":276.488,"end":304.25,"text":"我想院長看了這段話應該會跟我一樣覺得很羞愧他說他在國外讀書的經驗發現國外真的是把障礙者當人看然後回想我們在臺灣好像是第三世界國家那我想今天就是他放棄了國外的工作機會回到對他個人很不利的環境所以我們到底如何才能夠讓臺灣脫離障礙者的第三世界國家"},{"start":304.77,"end":304.79,"text":"﹚范雲"},{"start":313.959,"end":336.575,"text":"看到大概有上百萬,看他的嚴重的程度有不同。依據政府的統計有120萬,那這個不包括就是像我母親她是因為老化出門要用輪椅,所以輪椅的這種老化失能者沒有包括在裡面就120萬。120萬如果他有一個家庭一個障礙者有三個家人或者3.5個好了,"},{"start":337.876,"end":363.714,"text":"其實全國就有500萬個超過500萬個身障者及其家屬還不包括像我母親這樣子的狀況我們看到她會遇到怎麼樣的狀況下一頁如果她是懷孕生產女性的話這邊就是我這邊這個照片是我親自訪問的身障媽媽陳清琦她是生命教育學院的院長常常在全國用生命教育演講"},{"start":364.454,"end":393.208,"text":"他呢先生是市長那他生了小孩的時候那他必須從新莊坐公車去基隆只是為了產檢你可以想像那個有多辛苦因為整個新北沒有一個他能夠有一個調整的一個產檯那他順利生下平安健康的小孩那整個生產的過程自己要洗澡幫孩子洗澡先生市長其實會非常大的工程"},{"start":393.928,"end":422.885,"text":"那所以懷孕期間沒有個人助理沒有更多的個人助理都沒有辦法安心生產你就可以看到女性的身份在懷孕生產期間會遇到的問題下一個我們看到俊翰我們知道他在求學的時間表現優異可是俊翰遇到的情況是什麼他參加大學考試每科只能延長20分鐘而且他必須要一直爭取極力爭取後來才能夠口述代筆"},{"start":423.846,"end":440.132,"text":"可是他在美國考律師執照遇到的是考務中心主動到他下他的飯店跟他報告說明安排他到考場而且只要他簽署一張不會洩題就讓他前一天開始考試"},{"start":441.092,"end":454.997,"text":"因為呢,多給他一天考試,別人考兩天,他考三天。 那這樣子能夠讓他有充分的時間完成深論題。 俊翰律師說他當時考大學的時候,其實他每題都會寫,可是時間不夠。 所以這是一個"},{"start":458.118,"end":473.315,"text":"很大的問題他讀書期間郡安律師也說他必須要自己拜託麻煩同學做筆記可是他到哈佛大學的時候校方呢請他提早報告為他專門開會召集各部門校方更聘請"},{"start":474.156,"end":502.497,"text":"替俊翰做筆記的同學而且全程保密兼顧學生的隱私。我想從這兩個例子那特別是俊翰律師的難怪他會認為臺灣是第三世界國家。下一頁我想這邊也提醒院長的是身心障礙者其實是多重身份的他不是只有一個身障者身份就像這邊剛剛講的女性會遇到生產甚至要到外縣市大醫院因為產台的問題"},{"start":503.678,"end":521.308,"text":"原住民呢他們也跟我陳情他們有雙重弱勢身份可是我們的國家要求他二選一所以他有時候經常不能夠確定哪一個身份對他是比較好的選擇經濟弱勢的話政府有補助輔具可是政府卻不補助維修"},{"start":522.228,"end":522.788,"text":"這是我們臺灣的處境。下一頁"},{"start":547.088,"end":557.784,"text":"我想請問院長您覺得我們兩位現在跟未來的總統都說要繼承陳俊漢律師的遺志,我們如何可以繼承他的遺志?"},{"start":558.41,"end":587.199,"text":"我想這個CRPD這一個法案實際上在臺灣已經國內法化而且對陸陸續續的按照這樣的一個精神來做但是就如同委員你所提的我們有很多地方還需要再加強還需要再精進的地方那我們會往這個方向來努力那包括了剛才你講的救學救養還有就業的這些部分都需要有加強的地方"},{"start":587.919,"end":616.992,"text":"下一頁謝謝院長所以其實您真的非常關心這個議題您已經知道答案了答案就是我們的身心障礙者權益保障法這次修法因為十幾年沒有修了真的必須要符合我們自己已經簽署掛在衛福部網站上都可以看到細節的身心障礙者就是說權利公約這個CRPD的公約那下一頁那我想請問院長不知道您知不知道身權法"},{"start":617.312,"end":617.392,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":644.785,"end":657.059,"text":"的這個專家學者的審查他也提供了很多寶貴的意見那我們看看國外的意見是怎麼樣我們一起來修那這因為他蠻細節的不過我想聆聽看看這一個委員寶貴的意見"},{"start":658.631,"end":674.968,"text":"謝謝院長您剛講的也都對是講程序上這麼做那我們來看實質下一頁他其實以我的整理有五個重點第一個障礙者要能為自己做決定那因為要落實如果沒有我的參與不要為我做決定"},{"start":675.569,"end":702.298,"text":"因為只有障礙者才知道他的需求是什麼那當時我們修法的爭議我的版本相關的機制要有1 2分障礙者的代表那當時至少衛福部聽起來沒有被說服第二個個人助理服務時數要充足那最近我也聽到陳媽媽講譬如說俊翰他吃飯他可能是需要兩小時可是吃飯的這個助理的時數只能給他半小時"},{"start":703.118,"end":724.646,"text":"所以他算是要用一個半小時要拿他的個人助理其他的時數來用那這個其實就是對家屬來講我們都看到陳媽媽已經幾乎據說全天候的在照顧他了連喘息的空間都沒有所以個人助理服務的時數也就是我想院長很了解我們要不要拿出資源來協助的問題"},{"start":725.566,"end":743.733,"text":"那第三個,障礙者要能夠在地自立生活,所以相關的環境很重要,而不是讓它機構化,機構不應該是唯一的選項。第四個,很多障礙者跟我陳情,臺灣的高科技能力可以做到很好的輔具,可是都是出口。"},{"start":744.233,"end":765.465,"text":"因為臺灣本地沒有市場,就是因為政府補助經費太少,所以他們甚至在臺灣買不到在臺灣的廠商生產的高科技輔具。所以高科技輔具的提供到我剛講的,你補助了輔具,可是卻沒有補助維修,這也是不應該的。"},{"start":767.106,"end":781.476,"text":"最後一個就是我所講的我們所有相關的機制應該要看到多重的弱勢者而不是讓他們自己在不同的系統之間被踢皮球甚至被迫做選擇那這五點"},{"start":782.777,"end":808.284,"text":"就是也是下一頁也是我們最近為下一代而戰我們希望跟您一起提出的集體訴求就是一定要這次行政院的版本本身一定要符合CRPD的國際公約因為上一次修法已經是17年前那我們2017年簽署CRPD國際公約之後本來就應該全面的檢視"},{"start":809.104,"end":834.94,"text":"﹗"},{"start":834.96,"end":861.489,"text":"我想這個我們一定會努力的來請這個衛福部收集相關的意見還有民間修法的建議來盡快提出修法的這個版本那更重要的我也希望在這個整個的這個制定的這個過程當中在大院也能夠得到我們朝野黨團大家的協助真的好好來幫助所有需要幫助的這些身心障礙者我想這是政府的責任我們責無旁貸"},{"start":862.233,"end":876.917,"text":"而一定會努力來盡快的來提出這個修法。好,謝謝院長。所以您承諾我們行政院會提出符合CRPD的生權法。謝謝院長,真的是溫暖內閣。那我也想問時間點,因為其實我們上一屆"},{"start":879.298,"end":880.258,"text":"我們來試試看。我們全力以赴。"},{"start":909.373,"end":923.972,"text":"所以我這邊真的謝謝院長的承諾您的努力我想您是真的願意努力那我希望我們溫暖內閣留下這兩個非常重要是您任內承諾推動甚至能夠提出"},{"start":933.011,"end":939.606,"text":"謝謝范雲委員、謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第三位陳委員御爭質詢。"}]}},{"id":"149711","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149711","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a29387edc5a82eca240fb04b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a6d2b10256321871ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:00:33 - 09:16:49","影片長度":"00:16:16","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":976,"end_time":"2024-03-12T09:16:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T09:00:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":18,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時）謝謝院長。有請陳院長，還有內政部部長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長、內政部備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：麥委員，早安。祝你當選立法委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝院長。有幸成為臺灣的新住民立委，今天我要來找出問題、解決問題，還有關注新住民的議題。雖然院長說自己是看守內閣，但是關於新住民的議題，希望院長可以承諾改進。關於新住民權益的議題講很久了，但是這個部分都沒有進展。首先是行政院沒有一個統籌新住民事務的機關，導致這些事務落在各機構，比如辦理簽證要到外交部，還有辦理國籍、依親就到移民署，所以造成移民署的業務有很多負擔。我們要融入臺灣有文化的隔閡與語言的門檻，所以新住民常常求助無門，像是陸配跟外配都需要幫助，得區分外配要到哪個單位，陸配又在哪個單位，但目前沒有設一個統籌新住民業務的機構，這個部分要請院長來回應一下。"],["陳院長建仁：有關移民的事務，現在都是由多個部會共同配置人力來辦理，目前運作無礙，但是為了要整合跟協調相關部會，行政院設置了新住民事務協調會報來統籌這些相關業務。我要在這裡跟麥委員再次強調，我們很歡迎新住民來到臺灣，而且對臺灣有所貢獻，我們都相當感激。關於移民事務，我們會讓相關部會在剛才講的協調會報當中，做更好的協調，如果有需要再繼續精進的地方，我們也會請各部會來加強精進這些辦法。"],["麥委員玉珍：目前臺灣有將近60萬新住民，新二代大概五十幾萬，加上來這邊工作的外籍移工及專業人員有80萬人，還有來這邊的外僑生有10萬人左右，加總超過兩百多萬人，這樣的人數為臺灣帶來的不只是經濟的發展，還有教育及文化，所以行政院有沒有想過要設立一個部門，專門服務從國外來、默默為臺灣付出的這一群人？"],["陳院長建仁：我們就是因為很尊重而且很重視新住民在經濟、政治、文化跟教育上的貢獻，所以我剛才才講在行政院就有一個協調會報，協調會報是一個很慎重的事情，是各部會都在一起。世界各國並沒有所謂新住民相關的政府機關，也是把相關的業務讓內政部或者移民署以及經濟部一起合作，大部分的國家都這樣，而且沒有像行政院特別有這樣的協調會報。協調會報是一個要定期開會的組織，也是相當重要的。剛才我也跟委員報告過，因為所有移民相關業務現在都運行得還蠻順暢的，所以我們並沒有要成立一個特殊的機構，但是很多工作實際上內政部扮演很重要的角色，我是不是給部長一點時間……"],["麥委員玉珍：但我們還是希望可以成立一個委員會，目前行政院有陸委會，但卻沒有我們新住民的部會或委員會，所以我們希望行政院可以成立新住民委員會，然後再來統籌一起去服務。其實內政部有一個新住民發展基金，培訓了10年，建立一個人才資料庫，但這個人才資料庫已經發黴了，因為沒有一個平臺，也沒有一個部門可以讓我們去發揮，所以希望院長是不是可以答應我們新住民的需求，在近期內成立一個新住民委員會，俾以栽培人才、留住人才，讓人才得以發揮，為臺灣服務。"],["陳院長建仁：好，這個部分，我請內政部長先說明，然後我再補充說明委員會的部分。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝。請部長。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員的建議，委員剛剛特別提到好幾個部分，包括新住民、移工，還有學生部分。其實這幾個區塊所面臨的問題、需求都有點不太一樣，剛剛院長特別提到我們在行政院有一個協調會報，大概就是把過去包括新住民或移工等等這些朋友碰到的問題一個一個列出來，比如像過去大家提到最多的，就是到臺灣之後要辦居住、辦戶口，或者是要辦金融帳戶、金融卡或銀行帳戶等等，都碰到很多困難，也沒有那麼方便，不過現在透過行政院的這個會報，我們把這些問題都釐出來，一個一個串接在一起，所以這是一個部會協作的方式。另外，新住民的這個基金在我上任之後，我也跟同仁不斷溝通、討論新住民的這個基金要運用在哪些地方，希望把錢用在刀口上，這是我們現在正在做的努力。","委員剛剛提到人才培育的部分，這個目前也有很多委員特別提到，包括通譯人才或者其他人才的培育，未來我們會在這個基金的運用上，特別特別強調、強化這個部分，也謝謝委員的提醒。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，就像部長所說的，有不同的需求，所以需要不同的解決方式，問題是資源沒有整合，部門也沒有整合，就變成是多頭馬車，每個地方都有新住民的服務，但一個個案轉來轉去，轉到最後就是浪費人才，也浪費服務資源，所以我們希望行政院可以成立一個二級機構的新住民委員會，專門服務新住民，有需要哪個地方服務，我們就轉介到那個地方，這樣才是真正的服務，否則國外的人來到臺灣，不管是語言或部門都不懂，變成是求助無門，所以我們希望可以設立一個平臺，以整合資源，栽培人才。我覺得新住民不是要一直栽培，變成好像是專業學生，而是希望有一個部門、有一個平臺讓大家發揮，否則只是栽培人才、建立人才資料庫，人才也無處發揮，所以希望行政院可以成立一個新住民委員會，就像現在有原住民委員會、陸委會，希望也可以有一個新住民委員會，栽培大家、服務大家，這樣才能真正讓大家可以發揮。"],["陳院長建仁：委員的建議我瞭解，但是我要跟委員說明，實際上，我們現在二級機關的數目都已經滿了，但是新住民的事情很重要，不管是教育、勞動、衛福、文化等等，還有經濟、財政的部分都有，確實它是包含在各個部會裡面，所以我們才會有所謂的新住民事務協調會報。實際上跟委員報告，這個協調會報是各部會都要來，每一個部會對於新住民的相關業務都會在這個會報上討論，而且那是一個很好的溝通橋梁，為什麼呢？因為當新住民有教育上的問題，或者是有入籍問題等等的時候，就在那個會裡面，各部會的首長都在，你如果單……"],["麥委員玉珍：只是一個協調會報……"],["陳院長建仁：對，但是……"],["麥委員玉珍：剛才院長說已經滿了……"],["陳院長建仁：單獨的一個部會……"],["麥委員玉珍：部會已經滿了？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：什麼叫做滿了？"],["陳院長建仁：就是……"],["麥委員玉珍：以前有沒有移民署？是因為很多新住民移工進來才有產生一個移民署來服務，所以沒有那麼多人需要服務就不會有移民署，怎麼會叫做滿呢？如果是滿的話，現在新住民生的小孩越來越多，就叫他們停止，不要再生了，已經滿了，是這樣嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不是。"],["麥委員玉珍：因為人多了就是有人的需求，現在我們要的就是我們有需求，我們要來服務，因為要去整合資源以及給予機會，大家才能真正的落實服務，對不對？我們要有一個平臺，要互助共好嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：不能一直編列全部的預算來栽培，栽培人才但若沒有給予機會，怎麼留才呢？怎麼真正的為臺灣付出呢？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們希望院長要成立一個新住民委員會，這個是整合資源，讓更多的人去發揮，你栽培人才花那麼多錢，但卻沒有一個平臺讓大家去發揮，因此我們希望有一個平臺、有一個部會能去服務新住民，也讓各個機構，以及外國人來到臺灣，可以有一個地方是真正的照顧到，讓全世界的人看到，只要來臺灣投資、移居臺灣，就是找這個部會就可以了，不用再求助無門、找很多的部會。","剛才你們有講嘛！各部會討論只是討論而已，結果是怎麼樣？誰來決定、誰來服務？所以我們希望行政院院長答應我們要成立一個新住民委員會，讓我們有一個新住民基本法，原住民族基本法也是最近幾年才成立的，如果有一個部門去服務的話，我們是政府的左右手，也能真正的解決問題。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我想回答你兩個問題，第一個是二級機關已經滿了的部分，按照行政院的組織法，我們部會的數目到現在都已經是滿額的，除非我們要修行政院相關的組織法才能夠做，滿額的意思是這樣。第二個，在政務的推動上，會報聯繫的工作實際上比單一部會要來得好，舉一個例子，譬如原民會想要做什麼事情，這個事情如果由單獨部會做的時候，它需要去協調經濟部、內政部、教育部等等不同的部會，這個時候一個部會來進行反而不容易做，而需要有一個好的會報來一起進行。","這個就是我們剛才講的，如果各部會都在新住民的事務協調會報裡面來做的話，你剛才問我們做了一個決定以後，做完決定以後，教育部該好好培育人才、勞動部該好好地聘用這些人才、財政部應該怎麼做、經濟部怎麼做，我們就會要求各部會一起來做，而這個時候的這個決定比單一部會的決定更有力量，使得跨部會之間的協力能夠做起來。"],["麥委員玉珍：是沒錯，跨部會是要去協調，但是要有單一部會去執行，這個對嗎？就像原住民委員會也是跟大家協調，但它是單一部會去執行，是對的嘛！是不是？你的意思應該是這樣，所以我們現在要的應該是這樣啊！因此我們要協調各部會、資源整合，最後才是由誰做決定及執行。所以你講的也對啊！原住民也是跟大家結合，到最後就是原住民去執行嘛！我們希望有一個專門的部門、專門的一個部或一個會去協助處理，再橫向去跟各個部會協助，這樣才不會資源重疊，還有一個個案由很多部門去服務，所以我們看到的是這樣。謝謝院長，這個部分希望你答應我們，我們也共同來去努力，這裡是臺灣的民眾跟政府最好溝通的橋梁，所以我們是代表我們的民眾跟部院去要求、去請託、去協助。","第二個問題，因為時間有限，關於警察的權利，警察是不是人民保母？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，所以人民保母去保護我們全國的人民，是不是要讓他們有地方住、還有睡好，這樣他才有精力去幫助大家、去保護我們的人民？但是目前為止全國有很多警察的住宿都沒有很好的地方讓大家住宿，所以希望重建或者改建的部分，這是現在很多個縣市的需求。新竹這邊他們有整理出來有很多是老舊的警察宿舍需要改進，但是沒有經費，這個部分是不是行政院這邊要編列預算給我們全國的警察有好的住宿，這樣子才能有好的品質，才能保護我們的人民，減少社會問題。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們請內政部來……"],["主席：麥委員，因為時間的關係，建議能不能請內政部把相關的資料的資料用書面送給您參考，好嗎？因為時間已經到了，好不好？"],["麥委員玉珍：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝麥委員玉珍的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第2號范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.78721875,"end":21.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.352218750000002,"end":26.558468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.08159375,"end":29.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.92909375,"end":31.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.50659375,"end":35.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.83971875,"end":37.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.09284375,"end":36.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.26971875,"end":39.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.90659375,"end":45.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.463468750000004,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.23909375,"end":47.095343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.36534375,"end":65.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.74221875,"end":92.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.47221875000001,"end":98.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.78346875000001,"end":104.08221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.26784375000001,"end":121.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.68284375,"end":125.96909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.13784375,"end":170.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.34596875,"end":223.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.15471875,"end":180.64409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.84221875,"end":182.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.58034375000003,"end":184.00221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.64096875,"end":201.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.05096875,"end":285.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.59409375,"end":310.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.62721875,"end":288.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.66471875,"end":292.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.42971875,"end":317.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.85471875,"end":320.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.58846875,"end":342.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.23471875,"end":350.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.36034375,"end":354.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":355.19909375000003,"end":358.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":358.37159375000005,"end":362.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":362.35409375,"end":365.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.67846875000004,"end":391.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.14284375,"end":425.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":426.20909375,"end":433.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":433.16159375,"end":440.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.52346875,"end":448.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.85534375000003,"end":451.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.74096875000004,"end":524.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.82659375,"end":526.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.2734687500001,"end":528.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.29846875,"end":553.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.22284375,"end":581.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.3797187499999,"end":586.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.72471875,"end":583.3828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.3447187500001,"end":584.9522187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.0615937499999,"end":630.4978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.0265937500001,"end":595.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.93346875,"end":597.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.63659375,"end":607.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.30721875,"end":608.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.6940937500001,"end":616.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":616.81221875,"end":616.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.8628437500001,"end":616.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.05096875,"end":628.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.9028437500001,"end":646.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.5122187500001,"end":662.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.2565937500001,"end":663.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.9609687500001,"end":666.6272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.13346875,"end":697.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.2678437500001,"end":716.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.20596875,"end":716.5434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":717.0834687500001,"end":748.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":749.11221875,"end":763.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":763.89471875,"end":786.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":786.96284375,"end":799.6528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":798.04971875,"end":801.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":801.59346875,"end":804.3272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","s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大部分的國家都這樣,但是也沒有像我們行政院有特別有這樣的一個協調的匯報。 協調匯報是一個定期開會的一個組織也是相當重要的。 那我們目前因為剛才我跟委員有報告過因為所有的業務相關新移民相關的業務現在是運行的還蠻順暢。"},{"start":275.527,"end":302.441,"text":"所以我們並沒有要成立一個特殊的機構但是很多的工作實際上內政部扮演很重要的角色我是不是給部長一點時間對我們希望就是要有一個因為現在目前我們有陸委會但是我們沒有一個部門一個部會成為我們新住民的部會所以希望說我們的行政院長這邊可不可以說我們要成立一個就是新住民委員會"},{"start":303.722,"end":329.321,"text":"接下來就是我們要統籌一起來去服務我們內政部有的新住民發展基金培訓了10年我們一個就是說建立一個人才資料庫這人才資料庫已經發霉了因為沒有沒有一個平台也沒有一個部門讓我們去發揮所以我希望的說我們院長這邊是不是說在近期內"},{"start":331.462,"end":354.572,"text":"新住民的需求要有一個新住民委員會來成立讓大家栽培人才留住人才讓人才發揮為了台灣來去服務我想這一個部分我是請內政部長先說明一下我再來補充一下那個非常謝謝委員的建議你剛剛有特別提到好幾個部分包括新住民"},{"start":355.33,"end":383.699,"text":"還有包括移工還有包括學生其實這幾個區塊他們所面臨的問題還有這個需求都有一點不太一樣那剛剛院長有特別提到我們在這個行政院的一個協調會報裡面我們大概把過去所這個新住民或者說包括移工等等這些朋友他們碰到的問題我們大概一個一個把它這個列出來比如說像過去大家提到最多"},{"start":384.315,"end":384.755,"text":"﹚麥玉珍"},{"start":408.707,"end":432.142,"text":"這個我們新住民的這個基金我上任之後我也是跟同仁不斷的在溝通就是說新住民的這個基金我們要運用在哪些地方把錢用在刀口上我們現在正在做這樣的努力那委員剛剛提到說人才的一個培育那目前有很多委員特別提到包括同意的人才或者其他的一個人才培育我們未來會在這一個"},{"start":433.359,"end":450.568,"text":"基金的一個運用上面特別特別強調強化這個部分有些委員的一個提醒是所以你們都有說嘛就是不同的需求就是不同的解決但是問題就是資源就是沒有整合"},{"start":451.817,"end":467.637,"text":"﹗"},{"start":467.897,"end":482.636,"text":"新住民委員會二級機構就是要專門來去服務有需要哪一個地方我們就是轉接到才像說一個真正的服務變成國外來到臺灣不管是議員或者部門"},{"start":483.277,"end":483.317,"text":"﹚麥玉珍"},{"start":503.473,"end":506.435,"text":"委員你的建議我有了解但是我要跟委員來做一個說明"},{"start":533.659,"end":552.791,"text":"實際上我們現在的二級機關的數目都已經滿了但是新住民的事情很重要不管是教育、勞動、衛福、文化等等還有經濟還有財政的部分都有那確實它是各個部會都包含在裡面所以我們才會有所謂的新住民事務協調"},{"start":554.261,"end":554.461,"text":"媒體臨時提案"},{"start":584.381,"end":599.587,"text":"以前有沒有那個移民署是因為很多新住民移工進來才有產生一個移民署來去服務所以沒有那麼多人需要服務就不會有移民署怎麼會叫做滿呢如果是說滿的話現在"},{"start":601.428,"end":618.414,"text":"新住民生了小孩越來越多就叫停止不要再生了已經滿了是這樣嗎?因為人多了我們就是人的需求我們現在就是我們要的就是說我們有需求我們要來去服務因為我們要去整合資源"},{"start":619.054,"end":644.967,"text":"還有給予機會大家才能會去真正的是落實的服務對不對我們要有一個平台要互助共好嘛對不能說一直說編列一種全部的預算來栽培栽培人才但是沒有給予機會怎麼留才呢怎麼真正的去為台灣付出呢所以我們希望說我們的院長要來成立一個新住民委員會這個是"},{"start":646.648,"end":668.267,"text":"整合資源讓更多的人去發揮也更多的是說你栽培人才花那麼多錢但是沒有一個平台讓大家去發揮所以我們希望的是說有一個平台有一個部會來去讓新住民去服務也讓各個機構還有外國人來到台灣"},{"start":668.928,"end":697.32,"text":"可以有一個地方真的是照顧到讓全世界人看到說我們只要來臺灣投資我們移居臺灣我們就是找這個部會就可以了不用說再求助我們再找很多的部會剛才你們有講嘛各部會討論只是討論而已結果是怎麼樣誰來決定誰來服務所以我們希望就是說行政院這邊院長答應我們說"},{"start":698.2,"end":698.22,"text":"好﹖"},{"start":718.291,"end":738.136,"text":"委員我想回答你兩個問題第一個就是說二級機關已經滿了就是說按照行政院的組織法裡面我們的部會的數目到現在都已經是滿了除非我們要修行政院相關的這個組織法才能夠做這個是滿合的意思是這樣那第二個呢在政務的推動上匯報的"},{"start":740.297,"end":740.477,"text":"﹚麥玉珍"},{"start":763.985,"end":764.105,"text":"﹚麥玉珍"},{"start":787.254,"end":812.347,"text":"財政部呢應該怎麼做經濟部怎麼做我們就會要求各部會一起來做而這個時候這個決定比單一部會的決定更有力量使得跨部會之間的協力能夠做起來是沒錯,跨部會是要去協調但是有要單一部會來去執行這個是對嗎對不對就像我們原住民委員會他也是跟大家協調但是他是當一個部會來去執行"},{"start":814.068,"end":838.456,"text":"是對的嘛是不是你的意思是說是應該是這樣所以我們現在要的是應該是這樣啊所以就是說我們要協調各部會資源整合在最後就是誰來去決定來去執行所以你講也是對啊你的原住民也是跟大家結合到最後就是原住民來去執行嘛所以我們就是希望就是有一個專門的部門專門的一個"},{"start":841.877,"end":841.917,"text":"﹚麥玉珍"},{"start":869.295,"end":869.435,"text":"還有第二個問題﹖"},{"start":883.271,"end":912.108,"text":"因為時間有限就有問題說關於就是警察的權利因為警察是不是人民保姆是對所以人民保姆去保護我們全國的人民是不是要讓他們就是有地方就是住還有睡好這樣他還有精力去幫助大家去保護我們的人民但是目前為止全國有很多就是我們的警察的住宿的話"},{"start":912.568,"end":916.852,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":917.284,"end":944.14,"text":"很好的地方讓大家住宿所以希望說這個是重建或者改建這個部分現在我們就是以那個有很多個縣市的需求所以我們就是新竹這邊他們有整理出來說有很多就是老舊的警察的住宿所以需要改進但是呢就沒有經費這個部分是不是說我們行政院這邊"},{"start":957.566,"end":975.564,"text":"麥委員建議好不好因為時間的關係能不能請內政部把相關的資料用書面送給您參考好嗎因為時間已經到了好不好好謝謝麥委員玉珍的質詢也謝謝陳院長的備詢謝謝接下來我們請登記第二號范雲委員質詢"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}